# Angry kindreds



## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

The proven efficacy and growing use of all in one antibiotics against most common infectious and contagious illnesses in pigeons and other birds it's making vets uneasy and embittered about their business which just can succeed with misinformed and/or desinformed birds owners. 

Due to unreliable tests that in many cases cost the lives of the birds, pet owners are now taking action on their own worldwide with an incredible stock of proven working preventive and curative medicines that treat different illnesses at a time at a lower cost, Fortunately vets are nowadays not seen by everyone as the adequate option or even the best option when the goal is to save the life of the birds or prevention. 

It has been proven in many aspects and in many occasions that if you want to literally "save" the life of your pigeons the worst option is to consult an avian veterinary not just because they simply lack the knowledge to treat pigeons but because when they are unable to treat the bird due to their ignorance on what its going on they will kill the bird sometimes against your will, or will charge you advising you to treat it for something they are not sure what it really is.

In all continents bird experts and laboratories making products for birds corroborate than prevention is the key, veterinarians profit basically from deadly, chronic, ill birds and they really need to keep people in dependency of their unreliable tests to make money of it. If you take action all on your own you will be warned about resistance and the supposed inefficacy of the all in one antibiotic due to the supposed low dosage of antibiotic in it.
This is not just untrue as most renown laboratories all over the world produce these products on a large scale and have in their stock at least one if not many of all in ones antibiotic to cure and prevent pigeons deceases. 
*
Do not let people let you think they know more that you do.*

I rather do my own research than trusting the advise of someone who at the end is just trained to perform some basic acknowlegements than accurate diagnosis and medication of bird illnesess that till the day of today some of them are not completely documented, no at all documented, and some of them even completely unknow.

Informed people know that lab tests are never 100% to trust and that vets sometimes succeed in treating something just because they use a wide spectrum antibiotic rather because they know what is really going on with the bird. 

Antibiotic sensitivity tests regarding Trichomonas cocci as all other illnesses are not readily available in most locations to determine if the antibiotic prescribed by a vet is going to be effective or not, when sensitivity tests are not available vets do just what the most of as can do as well, choosing what it seems to be the best option to treat an infection or illness. 
Something important to know is that to detect trichomonas the pigeon must be carried to the laboratories because the protozoa will not survive the transport, Very occasionally they will be seen on histopathology, but due to the margin of failure it is not worthy even to try. 

Then, the wise when you care about the life of the birds is to treat all of them with antibiotic, disregard if you have 2, 10, 50, 100 or even more birds because you cannot take all of them to the lab or simply wait until symptoms appear to take action because until then it will be simply too late for the birds. 

But is a vet "advice" about antibiotic something for which we really need to pay? 

Obviously not because treating all pigeons in cases of infectious contagious deceases it is just a matter of common sense not of expertise, the information to make a choice is all out there for free, you just have to look for it, to inform yourself, to understand the risks, and to take action.
When owning many birds quarantining the ones showing symptoms and sitting to wait to see if the rest of pigeons become ill to do something helps vets to earn more money with their unreliable tests and expensive medicines, but definitely not the birds. 

Avian vets lack sufficient knowledge to treat correctly different avian species, but anyway they will charge a fee for it. They are Corrupt, without ethics, and immoral as can be.

*Prevention*

Avian vets lack knowledge about prevention, but the worst of it that they see prevention as a threat to their business, a vet makes no money from healthy birds, but from sick ones. Exactly like doctors and pharmaceuticals have a war against healthy well-informed patients who can easily recognize symptoms and take action on their own, vets are now scaring people about antibiotic abuse and resistance to it. 

They masquerade their ignorance about some species in their own interests and advice you to kill the birds when unable to deal with what it is affecting the bird. 

I have never seen anyone to die from "missuse" of antibiotic, or "resistance" to antibiotic, but I know many die of incorrect diagnosis, neglect, and malpractice. 

If a bird dies in the care of a vet, everything it is OK for some people, he is a vet after all think many, I pass this lazy way of thinking and I do choose to do my choices based on proven facts and effective medication used by almost every pigeon owner around the world. 

In place of giving money to a vet who thinks to know things he/she in fact in most of the cases they really do not know I invest that money in prevention, having a good stock of all the medicines particularly the all in ones, and suplements that can not just save but improve the life of your birds, This is the best thing people who really cares about their pigeons can do. 

Through research I have come to know than for cure and prevention in pigeons with vage or multiple symptoms all in one medicines are the best to be used, do not let a vet to earn money treating something he/she do not understand or know better than you do, but you always need medicines in tablets or pills for individual use in case of emergency for the most common illnesess in pigeons to treat inmediately when the symptoms are very clear and grave and the illness is easy to identify

Some of the most common illnesess are
Paratyphoid, Canker, Cocci, Worms, Adeno-Coli Syndrome, Ornithosis and Candida.

Besides that you need to vaccine your pigeons for the most common and difficult to survive illnesess like

Paramyxovirus 
Pox
And many others.
If you have many pigeons treating for prevention through the water works OK, when you have less than 10 pigeons treating them individualy would be better.

*Some useful links.*

The first link is the product that helped my little Dulce to become better, and the second link that belongs to the same website its a wide range of specialized products all of them created through research done by specialists in pigeons where a large amount of proven working all in one medicines are to be found.

The third and fourth links speak for themselves, they ship to many countries in the world.

http://www.dovital.nl/Webwinkel-Product-361711/GIANTEL-COCCI-TRICHO-100-gr.html

http://www.dovital.nl/Webwinkel-Category-711852/Vitaliteit-Duiven.html

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/bird_medication.html

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COLUMBOVET-4-1-Antibiotic-Racing-Pigeon-Birds-/260913649340


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Looks like a pile of c**p to me, whoever actually wrote it.

I've seen this stuff about vets before, or something similar. Any nutter can make these kinds of sweeping generalizations but I have yet to see any of them produce any actual evidence of the immorality and corruption that any given vet has demonstrated.

*So ET - give us some actual evidence*

We all know that a lot of vets know nothing about pigeons and also that a lot of vets will not treat pigeons. There are vets who will, but are more used to other avian species, but if one is fortunate one may find a vet who is both knowledgeable and willing. That's how it really is.

As for this medicine, well, if you got a whole loft full of pigeons and you give them something like "4 in 1 Powder to treat paratyhpoid, canker, coccidiosis, and E.coli all at one time " in water, you have absolutely no way of knowing how much any bird has ingested. 

As for resistance to drugs - that is not a veterinary 'lie', it is scientific fact. Similarly, giving a bird an antibacterial med today and the next seven days is not going to prevent it from getting a serious, maybe life-threatening, infection in three weeks time!

Giving anti canker meds as a preventative - same for cocci - is very common, and sub-clinical levels of both parasites _can_ be kept down by this method. However, in a loft situation it can lead to resistant strains, so many folk use different canker or cocci meds interchangeably to try to prevent that.

But, these multi-meds are marketed because too many people want an easy option, regardless of how effective or otherwise it may be.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> Too bad we don't live in a perfect world.
> where or who wrote this?, if it is not you then you need to quote it or say the author if you are copy and pasting.


I doubt it is copied & pasted, due to the amount of spelling/translation errors. 

ET, do you actually bother to read the replies to your other posts on this, or are you gettng payment for advertising them ?
Every time a reply is made, you ignore it, dont even respond to the statements or reasons, but start another thread containing the same false information.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/fast-shipping-columbovet-to-europe-60988.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f24/for-those-living-in-europe-and-or-holland-60999.html#post663631

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/all-in-one-antibiotics-61304.html


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, if you truly believe that 4 in 1's are the answer to all your birds medical needs, than I just have one question for you. I want to know what the heck you are smoking, and do you have any extra?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Well, if you truly believe that 4 in 1's are the answer to all your birds medical needs, than I just have one question for you. *I want to know what the heck you are smoking, and do you have any extra*?


probably drinking the 4in1  lol


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

I been on some heavy stuff before in the hospital, nothing like that. I firmly beleive the answer is to medicate the problem with the medication spacificaly for the problem at hand. not somthing for 50 other problems too.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

ET, why are you so angry? 

I think _one_ post on the multi-antibiotics and _one_ post on the I-hate-vets rant is enough. No need for duplicates.

Thank you for caring about Bravito and Dulce's health so passionately. Granted, there are differing opinions to medicate. As people who have vast experience in the topic have already explained, it is up to you to do your research and evaluate all the suggestions, readings (?) and advice given. If you still defiantly believe in your methods, who are we to say otherwise? 

Most importantly, I hope you love and care for your birds (and I am sure you do) just practicing a different approach.

Let's all not bash and ridicule. We can't force our beliefs on another, and I hope such disagreement will not cause us to lose an active member


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

ETphonehome said:


> The proven efficacy and growing use of all in one antibiotics against most common infectious and contagious illnesses in pigeons and other birds it's making vets uneasy and embittered about their business which just can succeed with misinformed and/or desinformed birds owners.
> 
> Due to unreliable tests that in many cases cost the lives of the birds, pet owners are now taking action on their own worldwide with an incredible stock of proven working preventive and curative medicines that treat different illnesses at a time at a lower cost, Fortunately vets are nowadays not seen by everyone as the adequate option or even the best option when the goal is to save the life of the birds or prevention.
> 
> ...





spirit wings said:


> Too bad we don't live in a perfect world.
> where or who wrote this?, if it is not you then you need to quote it or say the author if you are copy and pasting.


Did you not read the bottom of their thread stating all writings are their own authoring - Anything to say on the subject of the meds?



Quazar said:


> I doubt it is copied & pasted, due to the amount of spelling/translation errors.
> 
> ET, do you actually bother to read the replies to your other posts on this, or are you gettng payment for advertising them ?
> Every time a reply is made, you ignore it, dont even respond to the statements or reasons, but start another thread containing the same false information.
> ...


What is this? A personal attack? Once again - Any opinion on the meds. He has raised some valid points - Not proven I agree but can anywhere here disproove them or are we just going to mock the poster instead???



Jay3 said:


> Well, if you truly believe that 4 in 1's are the answer to all your birds medical needs, than I just have one question for you. I want to know what the heck you are smoking, and do you have any extra?


Where did they say that its the answer to all medical needs? I thought they said at the end of the thread that their are other requirements for birds like vaccinations etc.



Quazar said:


> probably drinking the 4in1  lol


How about you stop belitting members Bob, Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit afterall.





SO NOW - after reading the BS replies ( apart from a few ) I'll put my 2cents worth in on the actual subject

I would be interested in any broad spectrum preventative medications of this type, I have no experience with them hence my original interest in this thread, 

ET - I also ask, have any tests been done to test the effectiveness of these methods? If so - where are they?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Evan, for information, the "own writings" comment was added AFTER the question was asked, and incidently is not added to the post, but to the signature (note it does not copy across in a quote function), hence it also wont show as an edit.
Now, while I can agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, ET is in actual fact no better than any of the vets that they rant about in the fact that the advice they are offering is against all medical knowlege and, for a newcomer who may know little about medication (not just birds) it can put the bird in serious danger.
i.e. 


> Avian vets lack knowledge about prevention, but the worst of it that they see prevention as a threat to their business, a vet makes no money from healthy birds, but from sick ones. Exactly like doctors and pharmaceuticals have a war against healthy well-informed patients who can easily recognize symptoms and take action on their own, *vets are now scaring people about antibiotic abuse and resistance to it. *


There is no "scaring" against the abuse & resistance to antibiotics - it is scientific FACT


> I have never seen anyone to die from "missuse" of antibiotic, or "resistance" to antibiotic, but I know many die of incorrect diagnosis, neglect, and malpractice.


There will always be incidents of incorrect diagnosis (no one is infallible) and sadly neglect & malpractice, but one typical scenario regarding misuse & resistance of antibiotics is penicillin. 
When it was discovered & first used, it was the "miracle" drug, administered willy nilly for all sorts of symptoms and used almost as frequently as one would take an asprin for a headache (more side effects now discovered on that one too), but in the short period of time of constant (mis)use, some humans have not only developed a simple resistance but also an allergy to it. In quite a few cases administering the slightest dose can be lethal, and also in some cases this condition has been passed genetically to the next generation.

Antibiotics themselves normally dont cause death, but the lack of effectiveness of them by overuse or use when not necessary will hinder recovery & more chance the original illness will kill the bird. 

On to "preventative" measures -
In a loft or even pet situation the best preventative measures is cleanliness, hygene & general well being of the birds, much the same way as one would look after themselves. Yes, some will still get ill, but then specific treatment should prevail.
Vaccination against a viral ailment is a valid option, much the same way as a human would be vacciniated for certain things when young. (incidently, vaccination doesent stop one getting the virus - it merely kick starts the body to produce antibodies to fight it at the earliest stage, meaning the virus doesent get a chance to survive and take effect. It also means that one could be a carrier of the virus but show no effects.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Did you not read the bottom of their thread stating all writings are their own authoring - Anything to say on the subject of the meds?





from my post that is pretty obviouse I did not. I have no furthur comment on meds or anything to do with this.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This rant they are on is an opinion that could and probably should have been expressed in just one thread, rather than starting thread after thread of this crap about avian vets. Doesn't even make sense anyway. Many times a vet and tests are needed to be sure of what is wrong with the bird, without which you would be treating the bird for one thing, then another. And sometimes not hit on the right thing until after trying several different meds. Not only is that not good for the bird, but also he is going down hill while you are trying to find the right medication. It is important for us to become informed of the different diseases and treatments, and the symptoms of these diseases, to keep our birds healthy, and to help them when they are ill. But sometimes a vet is needed, and sometimes tests are needed. And there are many good avian vets out there, so to classify them all as this poster has done is ridiculous and unfair. This is bad advice for new people coming in.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> This rant they are on is an opinion that could and probably should have been expressed in just one thread, rather than starting thread after thread of this crap about avian vets.


Absolutely. Maybe it should not be a case so much of ETphonehome as ETgohome


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

John_D said:


> Absolutely. Maybe it should not be a case so much of ETphonehome as ETgohome


That's great! And exactly what I was thinking. LOL.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Are the bullyish remarks really necessary?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I JUST did a research paper on antibiotic misuse/resistance like two weeks ago. I skimmed over the original post and gathered they believe there is no such thing as antibiotic resistance? That is a natural process that has been going on since the beginning of time. Bacteria, viruses, and other microbes multiply so fast that mutations, and thus evolution, can occur very quickly. If the new mutations had something in their genes that allows resistance to the effects of the antibiotic (NOT ALWAYS A MAN-MADE MEDICATION. Many plants contain antibacterial properties), then those are the ones who live on and multiply. The problem here is that antibiotics are so misused in both animals AND humans that we are only speeding up the process. We should focus more on prevention and diagnosis rather than just shooting in the dark and hoping you fix the problem. People tend to stop treatments in both themselves and their animals as soon as the problem seems to be fixed. However, the full treatment period may be required to wipe out all the bacteria. Therefore, you leave some behind to multiply and cause problems again, thus wasting your time and money while creating an environment for bacteria to form resistance. That is one way we screw ourselves over. Another is by just assuming using "this" or "that" will help. I agree that broad spectrum and "4-in-1" (etc) kinds of antibiotics should not be used unless necessary. Treating for something that isn't there is, once again, a waste of time and money.


I do not see why you feel the need to constantly attack all veterinarians and doctors as a whole. There are good and there are bad. But you must realize, WE are mostly the ones to blame. The patients or caregivers/owners of the patients. Ask a lot of questions. Question everything they do or prescribe. If something doesn't seem right, go to another doctor for a second, or third, or fourth opinion. They serve us. Don't forget that. Educate yourself.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

On that note, I can publish my paper if you'd like. It's like 6 or 7 pages I think. Quite repetitive it seems but I only had so much time and the format made it hard NOT to repeat myself  Pretty self explainatory thesis.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

MaryOfExeter said:


> On that note, I can publish my paper if you'd like. It's like 6 or 7 pages I think. Quite repetitive it seems but I only had so much time and the format made it hard NOT to repeat myself  Pretty self explainatory thesis.


Think you should. Is it, or can it be put, online with a link?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes  I will upload it to google documents and post the share link.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Are the bullyish remarks really necessary?


Is the poster not bullying vets? There are many good ones you know. Maybe some even come in to read some of these posts. Before you dish it up to someone else, you had better be prepared to be able to take some too. This is like the 3rd or 4th post like this in a row that they have posted, one after another. It's a bit much.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The works cited page wouldn't line up properly but oh well. Here it is:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11fiG1c88v8RISw3LzN-oKkASyDfRoCZAzjp1LC6vrCA/edit


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The works cited page wouldn't line up properly but oh well. Here it is:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11fiG1c88v8RISw3LzN-oKkASyDfRoCZAzjp1LC6vrCA/edit


Thanks Becky - will read in OpenOffice on my home PC


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Evan, for information, the "own writings" comment was added AFTER the question was asked, and incidently is not added to the post, but to the signature (note it does not copy across in a quote function), hence it also wont show as an edit.
> Now, while I can agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, ET is in actual fact no better than any of the vets that they rant about in the fact that the advice they are offering is against all medical knowlege and, for a newcomer who may know little about medication (not just birds) it can put the bird in serious danger.
> i.e.
> There is no "scaring" against the abuse & resistance to antibiotics - it is scientific FACT
> ...


I do not agree with what they are saying, I like vets but Bob - Why did you not post out an informative inteligient reply like this to begin with rather than shooting off and making yourself look like a sarcastic .....



John_D said:


> Absolutely. Maybe it should not be a case so much of ETphonehome as ETgohome


I'm prepared to be banned for this but a comment like this from a moderator/administrator is IMO completely uncalled for, You should be trying to calm down these situations not add fuel to the fire, I am now starting to understand what members mean about this place being just as bad as PETA. One sided - Noones allowed to express a different view.


John - Question for you, If I would like to complain about your conduct who do i go to? a sup moderator, or is there no proccess like that? basically if we don't like it lump it??? and then I guess you'll tell the complainer to go away or go home as you may put it.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Is the poster not bullying vets? There are many good ones you know. Maybe some even come in to read some of these posts. Before you dish it up to someone else, you had better be prepared to be able to take some too. This is like the 3rd or 4th post like this in a row that they have posted, one after another. It's a bit much.


No they are not bullying vets, they are voicing their opinions on their methods - Nothing personal.

I'm sure if a vet read this they would be confident enough in their own methods to either put it aside or take from it what they may.

I get that they should not be making duplicate threads. But thats John's job to shut them down, Not to start mocking members and their believes because he disagrees.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I get that they should not be making duplicate threads. But thats John's job to shut them down, Not to start mocking members and their believes because he disagrees.


Err ... didn't you just say



> I am now starting to understand what members mean about this place being just as bad as PETA. One sided - Noones allowed to express a different view.


Now if I 'shut them down', I am stopping people expressing their view. Nice try - no cigar, bro


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John_D said:


> Err ... didn't you just say
> 
> 
> 
> Now if I 'shut them down', I am stopping people expressing their view. Nice try - no cigar, bro


What? I meant shut down the DUPLICATES SO THAT ONLY ONE THREAD IS RUNNING ON THE SUBJECT

Paranoid are we


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I'm prepared to be banned for this but a comment like this from a moderator/administrator is IMO completely uncalled for, You should be trying to calm down these situations not add fuel to the fire, I am now starting to understand what members mean about this place being just as bad as PETA. One sided - Noones allowed to express a different view.


You are entitled to your opinion, ma man  




> John - Question for you, If I would like to complain about your conduct who do i go to? a sup moderator, or is there no proccess like that? basically if we don't like it lump it??? and then I guess you'll tell the complainer to go away or go home as you may put it.


Evan - answer for you, as I know you have just been itching to find a way to 'pay me back'  

I frankly don't mind who you complain to. I am actually grateful to you for posting this. It gives _me_ what _I've_ been waiting for


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> What? I meant shut down the DUPLICATES SO THAT ONLY ONE THREAD IS RUNNING ON THE SUBJECT
> 
> Paranoid are we



Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John_D said:


> You are entitled to your opinion, ma man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what you've been waiting for - you mean a reason to ban me - do you have a list of other members you are waiting to ban.

Haha and this prooves you have had it in for me for a long time, hence your lack of ability to stay unpartial on this site. I am done here John hence my voicing of my opinion

See you later!!!!!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> what you've been waiting for - you mean a reason to ban me - do you have a list of other members you are waiting to ban.
> 
> Haha and this prooves you have had it in for me for a long time, hence your lack of ability to stay unpartial on this site. I am done here John hence my voicing of my opinion
> 
> See you later!!!!!


Did anyone say anything about banning you? 

Looks like you's bein' paranoid, bro 

(the clue is in a post of mine on the other ET thread)


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I see you removed the thread I created pointing to three of your negative posts - John - you know aswell as me that your comments, posts and behaviour is far from what would be expected from you, Even the fact I can reel you in and get you to put posts like HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA and who's paranoid now shows you lack the ability to keep yourself out of arguements and remain inpartial. I heard a lot of stories about you when I started on this site, I got warned to watch what I say to you as if you don't like me you will ban me, In all honesty I only saw a glimpse of this side of you - until these last posts and also your posts on the JOHN D thread and now I understand what they meant.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Gentlemen - this is not playing well for anyone, least of all you two. Please stop before this ends up really bad! This forum is about pigeons, not personal vendettas.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> No they are not bullying vets, they are voicing their opinions on their methods - Nothing personal.
> 
> I'm sure if a vet read this they would be confident enough in their own methods to either put it aside or take from it what they may.
> 
> I get that they should not be making duplicate threads. But thats John's job to shut them down, Not to start mocking members and their believes because he disagrees.



Well this poster is way over the top. Thread after thread on the same thing. That is bullying. And much of what they said just isn't true. A lot of it is bad information for people who don't know. Saying they are unhappy about their dealings with vets would be one thing. But putting them all in one category, and adding false information could be damaging to a new person who reads it. Giving your opinion in one thread is one thing, but to keep on bashing in 3 or 4 threads is going to attract opposing comments from others. We are also entitled to our opinion.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes but Almondman - It is inappropriate for John to be implying members shoud go home or be making comments like

Read what I said - DUH http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f8/john-d-61321-2.html - last post

Nothing personal against him at all but I have been at the brunt of his attitude - I nearly left the site for good which leads me to wonder how many others have and will not come back because he has made belitting comments like "DUH" to them.

Its bad enough for any member to "DUH" another member but from a moderator is disguisting IMO and someone needs to pull him up on it


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Well this poster is way over the top. Thread after thread on the same thing. That is bullying. And much of what they said just isn't true. A lot of it is bad information for people who don't know. Saying they are unhappy about their dealings with vets would be one thing. But putting them all in one category, and adding false information could be damaging to a new person who reads it. Giving your opinion in one thread is one thing, but to keep on bashing in 3 or 4 threads is going to attract opposing comments from others. We are also entitled to our opinion.


I agree 100% that his material is far from scientific and I also agree that he should not have multiple threads.

What I don't like is sarcastic, or belitting comments, Even jokes about what they are smoking as this is unhelpful

Find some factual informative intelligient responses to what they are saying

The thing that is unbelievable is the people involving themselves in this BS probably had the best knowledge to rebutt his comments so that future members could read this info and see that what he is saying is maybe not true- Instead they will see, rolling eyes, Sarcastic comments and jokes and will not bother reading on.

I also agree that vets are great and should not be looked past BUT I do not agree with the way you guys went about putting this members views down. I am not the only one that saw it as bullying.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Evan - if you want to complain to someone, do so, OK? Trying to drag everyone else into your little payback plan does no good to you or other members.

I have banned very few people from this site, barring spammers. I don't do it lightly, and rarely without discussion with the team - and, frankly, it's usually me who does it because most of the 'dirty work' here gets dumped in *my* lap.

If it comes to attitude, I know personally of one person who will no longer post on this site due to your attitude, so don't get too cocky. A new broom may sweep you up a lot faster than I have 

You may think you are winding me up, and pressing my buttons, but I'm just having a laugh at your expense. Like I said, I'm grateful to you


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ya know................when someone posts something controversial, or strongly opinionated, they are going to get comments about it. It is often when someone else comes in and defends another member that it begins to heat up. Everyone has a right to their opinion, the poster and the members who answer them. And they don't need to be defended. If they post something like that, then they should be able to deal with what others have to say. I think others were trying to say it a lot nicer in the beginning, but were growing tired of the number of posts made all at once on the same thing. If someone uses a little humor to voice their opinion, I see nothing wrong with that. Not like they came back on and dealt with any of the beginning comments people made in defense of veterinary medicine. They just started another post slamming vets. If you are going to do that, and if you can dish it out, then be prepared to take it yourself. And coming in and arguing about the opinions of other people who comment, is not needed, and what takes the post off topic. A little humor is not so bad. You should try it. There was nothing all that bad that was said to the poster. Chill out.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John_D said:


> Evan - if you want to complain to someone, do so, OK? Trying to drag everyone else into your little payback plan does no good to you or other members.
> 
> I have banned very few people from this site, barring spammers. I don't do it lightly, and rarely without discussion with the team - and, frankly, it's usually me who does it because most of the 'dirty work' here gets dumped in *my* lap.
> 
> ...


lol, well atleast we are both having a laugh at each others expense, I have never been wound up by this site and this whole idea you have that I am trying to get payback? Payback for what? that time I prooved you wrong and you packed a sad and said" look at me, I'm Evan, I'm always right...... rather than just saying good points Evan, looks like I was mistaken - Now why would I want to get payback for that, That was done and dusted when I prooved you wrong.

A New broom may sweep me up your right. until that day I will continue to try and get through to you and your rolling eyes and " duhs" to other members is just plain wrong. You are missing that point I think


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Ya know................when someone posts something controversial, or strongly opinionated, they are going to get comments about it. It is often when someone else comes in and defends another member that it begins to heat up. Everyone has a right to their opinion, the poster and the members who answer them. And they don't need to be defended. If they post something like that, then they should be able to deal with what others have to say. I think others were trying to say it a lot nicer in the beginning, but were growing tired of the number of posts made all at once on the same thing. If someone uses a little humor to voice their opinion, I see nothing wrong with that. Not like they came back on and dealt with any of the beginning comments people made in defense of veterinary medicine. They just started another post slamming vets. If you are going to do that, and if you can dish it out, then be prepared to take it yourself. And coming in and arguing about the opinions of other people who comment, is not needed, and what takes the post off topic. A little humor is not so bad. You should try it. There was nothing all that bad that was said to the poster. Chill out.


you are missing the point

I agree people should expect comments but not Belitting comments

You guys cannot defend the way you spoke to this member - It was with sarcastic intent and it is not acceptable, For John to not realise that is beyond me


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> you are missing the point
> 
> I agree people should expect comments but not Belitting comments
> 
> You guys cannot defend the way you spoke to this member - It was with sarcastic intent and it is not acceptable, For John to not realise that is beyond me


So why don't you apply to be a moderator, Evan? I'm sure you'd do a wonderful job of keeping them all in line


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John_D said:


> So why don't you apply to be a moderator, Evan? I'm sure you'd do a wonderful job of keeping them all in line


No interest in it to be honest.

So you think to say " DUH" and ETGOHOME instead of ETPHONEHOME to active members of this site is acceptable? Thats my question


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> you are missing the point
> 
> I agree people should expect comments but not Belitting comments
> 
> You guys cannot defend the way you spoke to this member - It was with sarcastic intent and it is not acceptable, For John to not realise that is beyond me




No. I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are trying to say. I just don't agree with you. I don't see a few comments made with a sense of humor as belittling or all that rude. If you look at the rude comments the poster made about vets, ......................................now that was rude and belittling.

Why is it okay for ET to be that outspoken and downright rude, but the rest of us cannot even make a light joke? I think you are making a big deal over a few small comments.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> No interest in it to be honest.
> 
> So you think to say " DUH" and ETGOHOME instead of ETPHONEHOME to active members of this site is acceptable? Thats my question


Well, Evan, you do seem to be trying very hard to moderate, albeit without the actual title


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> No. I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are trying to say. I just don't agree with you. I don't see a few comments made with a sense of humor as belittling or all that rude. If you look at the rude comments the poster made about vets, ......................................now that was rude and belittling.
> 
> Why is it okay for ET to be that outspoken and downright rude, but the rest of us cannot even make a light joke? I think you are making a big deal over a few small comments.


Don't worry about it - it's me who is his target, the rest is smoke and mirrors.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> No. I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are trying to say. I just don't agree with you. I don't see a few comments made with a sense of humor as belittling or all that rude. If you look at the rude comments the poster made about vets, ......................................now that was rude and belittling.
> 
> Why is it okay for ET to be that outspoken and downright rude, but the rest of us cannot even make a light joke? I think you are making a big deal over a few small comments.


Valid points - I think we will have to agree to disagree Jay3.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John_D said:


> Don't worry about it - it's me who is his target, the rest is smoke and mirrors.


actually John when I originally posted this your post was one of the ones I thought was informative, objectional and entirely appropriate.

All that went out the window when you made a light sugggestion using a play on words that - ET should go home


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> No interest in it to be honest.
> 
> So you think to say " DUH" and ETGOHOME instead of ETPHONEHOME to active members of this site is acceptable? Thats my question


Iwill ask again as you have not given me an answer

So you think to say " DUH" and ETGOHOME instead of ETPHONEHOME to active members of this site is acceptable?

I want some confirmation as when I read the code of conduct I got the idea this sort of thing was not accepted? Is it or isn't it?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

If you were St Peter at the Pearly Gates I guess I'd feel bound to answer you - but you are not, and it simply shows pomposity to demand that anyone answer your questions.

I keep telling you, go complain! That's OK by me (though I doubt I'll be recommending you as the next Admin  )


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> actually John when I originally posted this your post was one of the ones I thought was informative, objectional and entirely appropriate.
> 
> All that went out the window when you made a light sugggestion using a play on words that - ET should go home


Lets just say it was intended as a lightly-expressed hint.

If he keeps on telling new rescuers NOT to take birds to a vet because ... etc. then ET will be going home - but not by my hand.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Iwill ask again as you have not given me an answer
> 
> So you think to say " DUH" and ETGOHOME instead of ETPHONEHOME to active members of this site is acceptable?
> 
> I want some confirmation as when I read the code of conduct I got the idea this sort of thing was not accepted? Is it or isn't it?


Maybe it should have read NZ go home, followed by get a life, watch some comedy & lighten up.
Honestly evan you really make me laugh, you could start an argument in an empty loft.
oh, and just to keep you happy


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I do not want be admin I just want to see the people that are show some respect for the members
If your behaviour was appropriate then I am guessing you would answer Yes to my question so I am guessing you yourself agree you should have not made those comments.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Maybe it should have read NZ go home, followed by get a life, watch some comedy & lighten up.
> Honestly evan you really make me laugh, you could start an argument in an empty loft.
> oh, and just to keep you happy


Real Mature


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I do not want be admin I just want to see the people that are show some respect for the members
> If your behaviour was appropriate then I am guessing you would answer Yes to my question so I am guessing you yourself agree you should have not made those comments.


Guess all you want. Like I said way back, you come across as someone who just has to be right AND has to get everyone else to agree you are right. If YOU think you're right, other peoples' opinion doesn't matter, so don't sweat it


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am interested to hear other opinions but I cannot see how "DUH" can be taken in anyway but being offensive, Its ok John - Now I know its ok to say "DUH" and to twist peoples member names to imply I want them to leave the site I will not bother pulling anyone up for it. I would never lower myself to this level of childish behaviour but I will accept it is part of the PT website. You obviously think your actions are acceptable so what is good for you is good for all of us aye.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I am interested to hear other opinions but I cannot see how "DUH" can be taken in anyway but being offensive, Its ok John - Now I know its ok to say "DUH" and to twist peoples member names to imply I want them to leave the site I will not bother pulling anyone up for it. I would never lower myself to this level of childish behaviour but I will accept it is part of the PT website. You obviously think your actions are acceptable* so what is good for you is good for all of us *aye.


Come now, you are mature enough to decide for yourself what's good for you - you don't need to take someone else's lead, especially someone as rude, offensive, childish as me


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Evan...I hear ya'.


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## pigeon is fun (Sep 6, 2010)

Youre the man!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Evan...I hear ya'.



You ought to hear him. He's said it probably 10 times already.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> You ought to hear him. He's said it probably 10 times already.


Haha more eye rolling.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> You ought to hear him. He's said it probably 10 times already.



I guess I should have put on my coat of courage and said...Evan...I agree with you. 
While I don't agree with ET's conclusions ... I do think some of the comments have been poking fun at her/him in a way that is belittling.None of the rest of us would appreciate the same kind of comments directed at us and some would find it hurtful.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Charis said:


> I guess I should have put on my coat of courage and said...Evan...I agree with you.
> While I don't agree with ET's conclusions ... I do think some of the comments have been poking fun at her/him in a way that is belittling.None of the rest of us would appreciate the same kind of comments directed at us and some would find it hurtful.


Thank you! It seems there has been some further agreement on the thread labelled John D - I feel my time here is maybe limited after this but I hope I have made a difference to the way people are treated here. Maybe the "lynchmob" mentality is being encouraged by John D? I am not sure but it sounds like he is justifying there and his behaviour.

I will also add I do not agree with ET's revelations but I disagree more strongly with the treatment they received.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> I guess I should have put on my coat of courage and said...Evan...I agree with you.
> While I don't agree with ET's conclusions ... I do think some of the comments have been poking fun at her/him in a way that is belittling.None of the rest of us would appreciate the same kind of comments directed at us and some would find it hurtful.



Well, with the way in which ET gave his/her opinion about vets, they obviously didn't much care how one would feel reading his/her opinion, now did he?
If you are going to speak so rudely and plainly to others that may have feelings as well, then maybe, just maybe, you should be prepared to receive the same back. It goes both ways.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Well, with the way in which ET gave his/her opinion about vets, they obviously didn't much care how one would feel reading his/her opinion, now did he?
> If you are going to speak so rudely and plainly to others that may have feelings as well, then maybe, just maybe, you should be prepared to receive the same back. It goes both ways.


They are just passionate I think - your right though - they could have been more diplomatic about their approach, But at the end of the day, If a moderator is unhappy with someones post it does not mean they have the right to attack the member.

and besides, some intelligient responses were given and read, If everyone kept this level of response then we would not be here, Joking at someone elses expense on a site like this is just pitiful and all it does it prevents your point of view being expressed in a way that people want to listen.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay...ET did not single out any particular vet, such as a member did here a few months back .Perhaps we need to get to the bottom of what has cause the accusations.
Regardless, I think it being direct is more valuable than making fun. 
I do understand though, that making fun is,well...more fun.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Jay...ET did not single out any particular vet, such as a member did here a few months back .Perhaps we need to get to the bottom of what has cause the accusations.
> Regardless, I think it being direct is more valuable than making fun.
> I do understand though, that making fun is,well...more fun.



No ET did not single out any particular vet. Regardless, it was rude and insulting, and put VERY strongly. Now that is apparently okay, but good grief! How dare anyone make even the slightest joke over the frustration of reading multiple posts on the same topic. And the fact that even when people did come in and speak to him decently, he wouldn't acknowledge them. Just came back with another poison post. Good Lord, chill out. They were a couple of joking comments. If that is going to put anyone in a tail spin, than maybe they should go home. Oops! I should be beheaded for that last remark!


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

guys this has gone way to far. can't we all just get along? I mean I say some blunt and brash stuff some times. the thing is I mean it. yeah, I can be a real arse at times. yes, there pepole that don't like me at all. hell there pepole that want to strangle me. however I am mature enough to not sit around for days arguing about what I said or have done. to me this hole thread is childish and unresponsible. if it's that big of a deal for you all. you have all made verry good points. you have all made some verry dicouraging points. however I recomend a more resonable aproach to this argument..........fly or drive your selves to the same location and agree to settle it. we ain't in the secound grade anymore. we do not meat in the parking lot after school. we don't argue about the same things for days.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> No ET did not single out any particular vet. Regardless, it was rude and insulting, and put VERY strongly. Now that is apparently okay, but good grief! How dare anyone make even the slightest joke over the frustration of reading multiple posts on the same topic. And the fact that even when people did come in and speak to him decently, he wouldn't acknowledge them. Just came back with another poison post. Good Lord, chill out. They were a couple of joking comments. If that is going to put anyone in a tail spin, than maybe they should go home. Oops!* I should be beheaded for that last remark!*


Lol - I am going to stop now but that genuinely made me laugh out loud - in a nice way too.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I agree with Evan and Charis.

Evan, thank you for having the courage to stand up for some of us who feels the same way about this post. I am honestly a bit shock at the immaturity of the response - even though I have high regards for some of the posters.

Ganging on someone (who only stated his views on vets and antibiotics passionately) is outright bullying. Especially coming from a person of power. ET has not in any way, condemned anyone PERSONALLY, so why the need to personally attack him (or even his profile name?). That was truly uncalled for.

I've had good experience here and are friends with most. But I feel the need to speak up when injustice is being done.

We all have hearts for pigeons and their well-being so how did it end up like this???


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> No ET did not single out any particular vet. Regardless, it was rude and insulting, and put VERY strongly. Now that is apparently okay, but good grief! How dare anyone make even the slightest joke over the frustration of reading multiple posts on the same topic. And the fact that even when people did come in and speak to him decently, he wouldn't acknowledge them. Just came back with another poison post. Good Lord, *chill out.* They were a couple of joking comments. If that is going to put anyone in a tail spin, than maybe they should go home. Oops! *I should be beheaded for that last remark!:*p


Me chill?
Without doubt!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> I agree with Evan and Charis.
> 
> Evan, thank you for having the courage to stand up for some of us who feels the same way about this post. I am honestly a bit shock at the immaturity of the response - even though I have high regards for some of the posters.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I was in two minds as to whether to say anything or not as I was worried it may take away the opportunity for me to talk on here, I do enjoy it most of the time and I hope not everyone thinks I am here only to argue.

Anyway I'm done with a few specific threads, Have said my peice and maybe should have shut up a bit earlier but now I will!


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## pigeon is fun (Sep 6, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Thanks! I was in two minds as to whether to say anything or not as I was worried it may take away the opportunity for me to talk on here, I do enjoy it most of the time and I hope not everyone thinks I am here only to argue.
> 
> Anyway I'm done with a few specific threads, Have said my peice and maybe should have shut up a bit earlier but now I will!


Thanks for opening the Pandora's box. Thanks for the courage to speak out.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

You have got to be kidding me with half these posts!  (YES, rolled eyes) Because I see a bunch of BS (bird sh**) flying around!
There is soooo much to respond to, but not enough hours.....I have stuff to do between the rain. The only thing I will say is that some of the people posting here are just as guilty (if not more) than what they are accusing John of.
"Don't be so thin skinned".....that's what I was told when I was attacked and belittled by a couple of members. And it wasn't John that said that to me.....it was the member that was not agreeing with my opinion. 
I love how some of the members here get their snide, belittling remarks across in a diplomatic/nonchalant manner. If the shoe fits 
Enough already!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> You have got to be kidding me with half these posts! (YES, rolled eyes) Because I see a bunch of BS (bird sh**) flying around!
> There is soooo much to respond to, but not enough hours.....I have stuff to do between the rain. The only thing I will say is that some of the people posting here are just as guilty (if not more) than what they are accusing John of.
> "Don't be so thin skinned".....that's what I was told when I was attacked and belittled by a couple of members. And it wasn't John that said that to me.....it was the member that was not agreeing with my opinion.
> *I love how some of the members here get their snide, belittling remarks across in a diplomatic/nonchalant manner. If the shoe fits
> Enough already!*





Waynette, I believe that is called passive aggressive? That's okay, but apparently if you use humor and make a tiny little joke, you are being hurtful and mean. Yes, thin skinned is right. I guess none of these good folks see themselves as being mean. The people who made the joking remarks were referred to as a lynch mob. Odd how they don't see that trait in themselves, isn't it?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Waynette, I believe that is called passive aggressive? That's okay, but apparently if you use humor and make a tiny little joke, you are being hurtful and mean. Yes, thin skinned is right. I guess none of these good folks see themselves as being mean. The people who made the joking remarks were referred to as a lynch mob. Odd how they don't see that trait in themselves, isn't it?


There's nothing wrong with throwing in a little humor to try to defuse a situation, but some people don't see it that way. To each his own.....but what gives another person the right to come in and say its wrong? Wrong to them maybe, but that doesn't make them right. And this 'agree to disagree' statement makes me sick. To me, that is one of the most 'closed minded' statements anyone can make. My interpretation of that is 'I'm right and your wrong and your not going to agree with me so I don't want to talk to you anymore'..........but then they continue to go on and on and on..........and on! I can understand why mods can get fed up! ......YUP....watch my face...rolled eyes, because I don't agree and am tired of all this harping, bickering and 'debating (?)'


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

And just a note on another observation.........
I haven't seen much of any other mods or administrators in a long time...Putting a huge burden on John. I think he did a wonderful job considering what he had to deal with!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> And just a note on another observation.........
> I haven't seen much of any other mods or administrators in a long time...Putting a huge burden on John. I think he did a wonderful job considering what he had to deal with!


He sure has had to deal with a lot of controversy.? There is a post on another thread that states John is taking a break for awhile.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

almondman said:


> He sure has had to deal with a lot of controversy.? There is a post on another thread that states John is taking a break for awhile.


I didn't see that thread, where is it?
I will miss him, I thought he did a great job keeping things in line (considering).......But a 'well deserved' break. And hope he comes back.

Edited........Oh I saw it in the 'JohnD' thread! That's one of the ones that got me fired up


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*This is what I was trying to get across...*

no need for me to say anymore on the subject in this thread.

http://www.bettyphillipspsychology.com/id74.html

an excerpt...



*Back to my original concern. Hostile teasing, picking, biting humor or sarcasm too often are insults poorly disguised as humor. They also are "double bind" communications which cause confusion, frustration, personal pain and anger in the recipient. The disguised message runs as follows. "I'm making fun of you and belittling you, but it's only humor. I don't really mean what I just said. There's something wrong with you when you don't accept my statements at face value as teasing even though my words are in fact critical and hostile." The more clever and witty the comment, the more difficult it is to respond. Sarcasm is especially problematic as the words often convey the opposite of the intended meaning. For example, let's say that you try to respond to teasing with a joke of your own. A sarcastic response delivered in a mocking tone, "that's so clever, ha,ha" negates your joke, making it difficult for you to respond in any constructive manner.
*


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> I didn't see that thread, where is it?
> I will miss him, I thought he did a great job keeping things in line (considering).......But a 'well deserved' break. And hope he comes back.
> 
> Edited........Oh I saw it in the 'JohnD' thread! That's one of the ones that got me fired up


I wish him well and hope his "break"is a short one. He is needed here on PT.


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