# Young Pigeon laid her first egg, but I am not sure if it has an embryo.



## FlyingPigeon

Greetings fellow bird lovers!

My red pigeon has just laid an egg last night. This is her first egg. However, I am a little doubtful about who the father is. I have a male pigeon that is spread in color. I also have a white male dove. My spread and red pigeon like one another. They spend most of their time together. However, I just recently bought my red pigeon for my spread one month ago. I found my spread when he was a baby. I brought him up by hand feeding. He has grown really attached to me. Even though they love one another my spread doesn't know how to mount. I have also given him the "Bad hand habit" in that when he courted my hand I offered it to him for his NEEDS. So, I have yet to see him mount. He courts my red pigeon and gets near her and tries to do the happy boogie, but he doesn't know how to get on top. Also, he cannot grip anything with his feet. So he cannot hop on and grab hold. His feet are deformed in a way that he cannot grip anything. My white male dove on the other hand also likes my red. My red however does not like my white dove. I have seen my white dove mounted on top of the red pigeon. She does not like it and always moves away. However, my white male dove mounts her just about every time he gets. I DO NOT KNOW HOW LONG OR HOW WILLING THE FEMALE PIGEON NEEDS TO BE FOR IMPREGNATION. She does not stay still for my dove, only for my spread. So, I do not know who the father is. Unless my spread has gotten lucky and has successfully mounted my red I am thinking he is not the father. When my dove does mount my red pigeon he stays on only for a couple of seconds. Maybe a max of 4 if lucky. Needless to say it is difficult for my dove to mount her because of her unwillingness. Yet, he tries to mount as often as he can. But, when I step out I always leave my dove in a bird cage. I do this because the red can sometimes peck at my male dove angrily. Not all the time, but when she does she usually rips out a feather. It does not happen all the time, because sometimes my male dove gets to chase her on the floor and she does not attack. My spread rarely pecks my male dove. Only if he tries to get inside my spread's bird cage; which I always leave open for my spread and red. My male dove is always supervised by me when he is out of his cage. I personally do not like cages for keeping birds locked up in them. 

So, right now my Red is mainly gathering pine needles for her nest. First it was my spread, but now my red seems to be the one busily doing it. 

Another question I have is if there is the possibility of this egg not being fertilized. My cockatail and quail used to do this. They would lay eggs sometimes but had no mates. If this is the case then what should I do? How long should I wait before taking action? I am afraid of the egg, after some months, popping from decomposition? Or do they just dry out?

If it is fertilized by my dove then will it successfully hatch into a hybrid? Or will it not work? Right now I am also a little concern over my spread not sitting on the eggs when my red is not sitting on them, but this all just barely started so maybe it will work out. It is just that for example. Right now it is daylight and my red is by the window getting some sun while my spread is standing on the edge of his cage. So no one is sitting on the egg. 

I uploaded a picture of the egg. I also noticed one of the pigeons brought in one of those white plastic wraps for bread bags. So I took it out since it has metal inside.


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## Charis

They eggs don't start to develop until the hen starts to incubate then. She will wait until the second egg is laid. At this point, it would be impossible to tell if they are fertile or not.


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## FlyingPigeon

Hi Charis. Thank you for your reply. I guess she will lay it tonight or tomorrow. I was wondering though. Can pigeons lay eggs that do not have any embryos and is this normal?


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> Hi Charis. Thank you for your reply. I guess she will lay it tonight or tomorrow. I was wondering though. Can pigeons lay eggs that do not have any embryos and is this normal?


if the egg was not fertilized by a cock bird then it would not develope an embryo when incubated with heat.


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## FlyingPigeon

Hi Spirit!

So then it is normal for hens to lay eggs that have no embryos? How often does this happen? What is normally done with this egg? How long must you wait until you are certain the egg has no embryo inside?


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## Charis

It happens if the hen has not mated with a cock bird. We leave the unfertilized egg for the hen to lay on because laying an egg, takes a lot of calcium and she needs the days to recover and build the calcium back up again.
Hens will some times mate with each other. Then, of course, the eggs would not be fertile.
Probably you will be able to tell if an egg is fertile after a week although if it's sooner I'm sure someone will let us know.


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## FlyingPigeon

Hi Charis. Thanks for replying again. Okay so then it is normal for them to lay eggs that have no embryos. Why would two hens mate with each other ? She has not laid the second egg yet, but has a very aggressive appetite. My red sits on it occasionally, but most of the day she spent it out of her nest. My spread did not sit on the egg either. What if both pigeons never sit on the egg consistently? Should I be worried? Would I need an incubator? My male dove mounted my red a couple of times today. Though she would move away every time. It makes me wonder if my dove did not impregnate her by any chance.


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## Charis

Don't worry... just wait and watch what happens. The pigeons know what to do.


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> Hi Charis. Thanks for replying again. Okay so then it is normal for them to lay eggs that have no embryos. Why would two hens mate with each other ? She has not laid the second egg yet, but has a very aggressive appetite. My red sits on it occasionally, but most of the day she spent it out of her nest. My spread did not sit on the egg either. What if both pigeons never sit on the egg consistently? Should I be worried? Would I need an incubator? My male dove mounted my red a couple of times today. Though she would move away every time. It makes me wonder if my dove did not impregnate her by any chance.


pigeons usually pick a mate and then she will lay eggs..sometimes they are fertile if the cock bird does his job..sometimes they do not. if there is a male pigeon with her I would guess he is her mate. as far as the dove goes he needs to be removed and kept seperate.


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## FlyingPigeon

The thing is that we live in a small studio and do not have much room. Basically it is just one big square for a studio. My dove is only out when we are at home. The rest of the time the pigeons are always out and about. Keeping my white dove in a cage all day is like the least thing I'd want to do for the poor little guy . When I came home today my red is sitting on her egg. I don't disturb her so I don't know if there is another egg or not. I want to give her as much privacy as possible. Their cage is covered except for the entrance and a few other parts, so they get lots of privacy for their nest. It was originally my spread's cage, but he is now sharing it with his mate.


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> The thing is that we live in a small studio and do not have much room. Basically it is just one big square for a studio. My dove is only out when we are at home. The rest of the time the pigeons are always out and about. Keeping my white dove in a cage all day is like the least thing I'd want to do for the poor little guy . When I came home today my red is sitting on her egg. I don't disturb her so I don't know if there is another egg or not. I want to give her as much privacy as possible. Their cage is covered except for the entrance and a few other parts, so they get lots of privacy for their nest. It was originally my spread's cage, but he is now sharing it with his mate.


If you only have so much room then letting the bird hatch eggs does not make sense..so when you have pigeons..to have hatch control would be to use fake eggs to put under the hen and take out the real ones..she must be stimulated by one of the birds.. Im guessing the other pigeon is her mate. now if you are wanting to house more birds by letting an egg or eggs hatch...then the dove needs to be kept away from the breeding pair.


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## FlyingPigeon

I like to think of the studio more like a big loft. I just don't have enough room because there is well no other room lol its just one studio room. There's a bathroom, but I am sure it would be dangerous to put the dove there. My spread has kept me company when I was most depressed. Right when the economy hit bottom and we lost our home to foreclosure. Including 4 other birds I had. He made it through and I owe him. I want him to know what it is like to have a son or a daughter. It is the least I can do for him. When I was all alone and depressed he was the only one to keep me company. Originally I bought the white dove as his partner and was told it was female. Then it turned out it was male, and I felt like I could not return him. Mainly because the pet shop owner came off to me as someone who did not care for his pets. The other reason was because my dove learn to fly by watching my spread, and my dove would always follow my spread which made me think my dove was in need of affection. So I just could not turn him back to an unknown fate. Also my dove did not like being caged after learning about free flight.


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## FlyingPigeon

Okay, so my red is now sitting on her eggs. Yesterday that was all she did. She would get up from time to time just to come out and eat. Though she has a little bowl of food inside. I guess she wanted to stretched her wings and eggs. There is only one issue though. I have yet to see my spread sit on the eggs. When my red would step out my red would just come out also. So my red ended staying just about the whole day, and night, sitting in her cage. My spread does go inside the cage to be with her, but he does not sit on the eggs. Should I be concerned or is it okay for only one pigeon, the female, to sit on the eggs all day and night? He also has started coo'ing for attention now that my red is busy sitting on her eggs. Before my red would pet and groom my pigeon and sped a lot of time with him outside. Now my spread stays inside, but coo's for attention. More specifically my attention which was what he would do a lot before I bought my red.


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## Charis

Pigeons having babies is instinctual. They are programed to repeat the process over and over which is why there are so many pigeons around. Even before the chicks are weaned, pigeon parents are on to the next nest and more chicks hatch about the time the first set is weaned.
Only once have I had pigeons and their chicks remain close into adulthood. With the lack of room, adding more pigeons, just to give the male a 4 week experience might not be the best for you or them especially since pigeons can live to be 20 years old and are not that easy to find good homes for if the need should arise.


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## FlyingPigeon

I have a feeling we are going to be okay. Ever since my family broke up we have lived in apartments. During this time I had birds with me to keep me company. Normally no more than two. It has been 17 years of moving around so far. Then two year of having a house, which was nice, before it got foreclosed. Just maybe the eggs could be empty. That or the dad could be my white dove instead of my pigeon. So if they end up bring hybrids at least they will not be able to make babies. Either way I feel that it will be okay. I still wonder though if it is okay for the red to have to sit all day on the eggs. I thought the parents would share the labor, but my spread does not sit on them. The red only gets out to eat and stretch her legs a little. I think when she sees my spread come out of the cage she feels rushed to get back in and sit.... Should I worry about this? Will it affect her health having to sit so much day and night?


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## Charis

I wouldn't worry as long as she is eating and drinking.


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> I have a feeling we are going to be okay. Ever since my family broke up we have lived in apartments. During this time I had birds with me to keep me company. Normally no more than two. It has been 17 years of moving around so far. Then two year of having a house, which was nice, before it got foreclosed. Just maybe the eggs could be empty. That or the dad could be my white dove instead of my pigeon. So if they end up bring hybrids at least they will not be able to make babies. Either way I feel that it will be okay. I still wonder though if it is okay for the red to have to sit all day on the eggs. I thought the parents would share the labor, but my spread does not sit on them. The red only gets out to eat and stretch her legs a little. I think when she sees my spread come out of the cage she feels rushed to get back in and sit.... Should I worry about this? Will it affect her health having to sit so much day and night?


as long as you want the offspring then it is fine.. but those two if you get two will grow and mature..and then need mates themselves.. so you will have birds that will compete for mates if these hatch .. so you do need to think about these eggs as mature birds..not just babies and how cute and fun it is to see eggs hatch...they will need mates at some point as well to do what pigeons do..which is find a mate..nest and sit eggs.. the pair on eggs now will not want their own babies with them when they mature as well..they will not see them as their offspring...but as intruders..so you will need a place for them as well..so think ahead.. keeping one or two pigeons indoors is well..messy as you already know..lol.. think of four..then the other two will want a mate..then there six... and on it goes.. so it does take forethought about them as adults and what you are going to do then.. they are not babies for long.


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## FlyingPigeon

That is true. I read they grow up really fast. Do you always get female+female or male+female? Is it up to chance or is it predetermined? In a way I kind of hope the offsprings are of my white dove. That way the hybrids will not be able to reproduce. I might end up buying the wood pigeon eggs and replace them with any other that are laid. It would not be wise to suddenly end up with ... 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 birds! I do want there to be offsprings, but only one time. Another thing I want to ask is if these eggs don't hatch within X amount of days.... Should I just leave them there forever? Or what should be done?

um.. someone i know just keeps telling me that if the eggs have no embyo then in a few days the eggs will pop and they will smell. Is this true?


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> That is true. I read they grow up really fast. Do you always get female+female or male+female? Is it up to chance or is it predetermined? In a way I kind of hope the offsprings are of my white dove. That way the hybrids will not be able to reproduce. I might end up buying the wood pigeon eggs and replace them with any other that are laid. It would not be wise to suddenly end up with ... 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 birds! I do want there to be offsprings, but only one time. Another thing I want to ask is if these eggs don't hatch within X amount of days.... Should I just leave them there forever? Or what should be done?
> 
> um.. someone i know just keeps telling me that if the eggs have no embyo then in a few days the eggs will pop and they will smell. Is this true?


ok, so it is planned..lol.. let them incubate the eggs and then when and if they hatch if they are fertile then you will know if the dove did get in there and fertilize one or both.. my thought is it is the other pigeon..but we will see.. the chances of either sex is 50/50...so you could have any combo..hen/cock..cock/cock...hen/hen.. if the dove did his thing..then you are right the offspring would be infertile from what I have read, but I think they would still want to have a mate and go through the motions..but if you get two hybrids then they could just be a pair together...and really if they are pigeons if they are two hens they can be together and so can bro and sis..but if they are two cocks then they may not get along and be wanting to find mates..or they can pair too..just depends on the birds. now about the eggs.. if they do not hatch they will just give up on them at about 18 to 20 days of sitting them in which you would toss them and they start over and lay again. and no they will not spoil in a few days if they are not fertile.. they can sit them till they give up which is usually the time given..(18 to 20 days).


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## FlyingPigeon

Hi Spirit wings. Thank you for your info. About a week ago I found a baby crow. He was in bad shape. One of his eyes was missing or just shut in. And the lower portion of his jaw was swollen. I tried to save him. Where I found him it was hot and there was no shade anywhere. Only 3 long palm trees. I figured leaving him under a stick of shade will only cover him for a small amount of time before the sun moved. I took him with me, but passed away about a minute after I got home. However, I managed to give him some water from my cantine that I carry with me. I gave him water about 2 times or 3 in the hour trip it took me to get back home. He had one good eye and it was light blue. It was really pretty. I knew he was in bad shape and he or she could not fly or walk. When I first saw him he was struggling to get back on his feet and probably find a shade from the burning sun. I believe his next was high up one palm tree where I herd other crows. I thought if he could make it then the next day I could take him to a bird refuge or some place to get it help. On the way I tried to ask some people for help, but no one could help me, or rather WOULD NOT help me. One fit young man kindly burped at me as he passed by and I tried to communicate with him. No joke. It was saddening. Loud motor cycles rushing by and cars running late to where ever they need to go. I am happy I at least did not get run over. I at least managed to get him off the burning hot sun and gave him water, and a place to pass away peacefully. He did not seem that scare of me. I was very gentle. I managed to find a large enough box for him, and added my soft under shirt as padding. It really helped him. I have no car so I had to walk for about 15 or 20 minutes before I could get to my bus. I gave him a little more water while in the bus. I thought he would make it, but no luck. Shed some tears. I was wearing my heart rate monitor at the time (I now do daily walks for my heart) and my heart started racing from 130 -160 . I have heart disease so my heart has been acting up, and it can get worse in some situations. I felt the risk was worth it either way. The next day I went back to the spot where I found him and buried him next to the palm tree where I found him. I at least feel his spirit can visit his family up in the palm tree... and perhaps say his last good byes. If I had left him back then he would have died under the hot sun for sure. Even if there had been a shade... I have seen what happens to little birds. years back (Before I started taking them home) I have passed injured or young birds and come back only find pieces of them left. Then That was when I started to bring injured birds home. Today I found a baby pigeon. He can't stand on one leg and cannot seem to fly either. I will add a picture tomorrow. I gave him a glass lid with water, and right away he drank for a little while. He or she must have been pretty thirsty. I also sprinkled seeds all around him, since he cannot stand, and hopefully he has eaten. He also does not seem that scared of me. I was very gentle. I also made sure to put white cloth underneath him so he doesn't have to sit against solid wood. I used a small cabinet for his home after taking out the drawers. I am hoping he makes it through the night. He looks healthy... but I don't know. At least he is in better shape than the baby crow I found about a week ago. I am praying for the best.


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## spirit wings

you are a very careing person and I hope you will beable to continue giving assistance to you're featherd friends. you must be down south if you are talking of palm trees are you in florida?


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## FlyingPigeon

Thank you spirit wings. I live in Los angeles california. There are some palm trees here in the city. Though I think they were mainly planted for looks. The area where I found the baby crow was at a strange intersection near a freeway entrance. I actually did not know crows would build nests in palm trees. Anyway, may that little guy rest in peace near his family <3. I took a picture of the pigeon I found yesterday. Funny thing was that I was on my way to school graduation and found him right when I was close by. I ended up taking him back to my place then rushing right back. I got there a couple of minutes late. Only missed like the march introduction and national anthem, but I got there in time to see the rest. Had to walk right into the middle of the stage when everybody else was already sitting. Kind of embarrassing but it was worth it lol. The pigeon looks to be in good shape. He still can't stand, but he does seem to try and make an effort sometimes. It is mainly his left leg. He keeps it close to his body. No blood. Apparently he can't fly also. He can stretch his wings. When he was on the side walk he did not attempt to fly away. I hope he can get better one day. That way I can release him back with his friends which i think is the right thing to do.


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## FlyingPigeon

I got a peak at what the little guy sounds like when he squeaks. He sounds like a baby. Though he does not look that much like a baby. He has grey irises so my guess is that he still is baby like. I thought he was a baby when I first saw him, but when I would tap his beak, or gently hug it between my fingers, he did not respond like one. He does squeal like one. He doe snot squeal that much though just rarely he is kind of quiet. I have not exactly seen him eat seeds, though I did see him peck at a few. I do still have some empty syringes from when my spread was a baby. They are clean and sealed. Any suggestions? Should I just leave him up to eating the seeds? From what I noticed there are still plenty. Which leads me to wonder if he is actually eating them. I tried to bring my spread closer to him to see if he would squeal for food like a baby. But he was mainly scared of my spread. I keep him separate in my that cabinet and use a basket to keep him safe from everyone else. I gave him 15 minutes of sun today in hopes of it helping him heal better (Vitamin D?). He can't stand on one leg and just keeps it close to his body. It is not swollen. he spreads his wings when he stands, but does not flap. No attempts to fly either.

-Edit-
I just saw my white dove successfully mount and engage with my red. So this leads me to think that the eggs, if fertile, might come out as hybrids. Only time will tell.


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> I got a peak at what the little guy sounds like when he squeaks. He sounds like a baby. Though he does not look that much like a baby. He has grey irises so my guess is that he still is baby like. I thought he was a baby when I first saw him, but when I would tap his beak, or gently hug it between my fingers, he did not respond like one. He does squeal like one. He doe snot squeal that much though just rarely he is kind of quiet. I have not exactly seen him eat seeds, though I did see him peck at a few. I do still have some empty syringes from when my spread was a baby. They are clean and sealed. Any suggestions? Should I just leave him up to eating the seeds? From what I noticed there are still plenty. Which leads me to wonder if he is actually eating them. I tried to bring my spread closer to him to see if he would squeal for food like a baby. But he was mainly scared of my spread. I keep him separate in my that cabinet and use a basket to keep him safe from everyone else. I gave him 15 minutes of sun today in hopes of it helping him heal better (Vitamin D?). He can't stand on one leg and just keeps it close to his body. It is not swollen. he spreads his wings when he stands, but does not flap. No attempts to fly either.
> 
> -Edit-
> I just saw my white dove successfully mount and engage with my red. So this leads me to think that the eggs, if fertile, might come out as hybrids. Only time will tell.


I would say if you are worried about this new commer.. to post a new thread so others here can help you wilth this injured juvenile pigeon. I probably would not put all the seeds where his droppings can touch them.


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## FlyingPigeon

The newcomer seems to be standing a little more now. His one injured leg still not really using it for support. On the other hand he has been flapping his wings happily preparing himself for flight? I have taken him out of the spot I have him in and give him some sun. He seems to like his place because he has been more eager to return each time almost instantly after putting him down. I am changing his beddding everyday, but he likes to sit on his seeds which leads to them being covered in poop some time later. Not all of them, but just some. I think he just likes having food near by to eat. I am glad he still is alive.

My red was a couple of hours away from her eggs. It made me wonder if she had given up already. After some hours like 3 or maybe even 4 she finally returned to her nest. I was wondering, if she does decide to give up on the eggs early what should I do? What if they have babies inside growing? Should I maybe buy a thermometer ahead of time and get a light ready to keep them warm? Or should I think on investing for an incubator? I don't know, so any help is appreciated. I am also thinking on buying some baby feed formula in case I do find a baby pigeon that needs feeding. Does anyone have any suggestions for baby food formula?

-Edit-

I know it looks dirty in the pictures, but it was sometime after I got up and I was about to change the bedding for him. I saw him standing and decided to take a picture. He still hops around and goes back to laying down after a while. He also still squeels like a baby .


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## Print Tippler

Just for you to know, your bird is a t pattern also know as a velvet. It does not have a spread factor. When a bird is spread they do not have a tail band.


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## spirit wings

what is the seed mix you are giving? if you can find one for pigeons it would be better..they usually should not have sunflower seeds in shell..and then need more peas or legumes in the mix...lentles and green peas and barley and safflower seeds can be in the mix.. they do have a dove mix at petco I do think in the wildbird food section. I would put the seed in a cock to keep most of it contained to keep it away from his droppings.


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## nycpigeonlady

I would give him water in a deeper dish, and a brick or flat rock to perch on. You'll notice that as soon as he has something higher to perch on, he'll stop perching on his food, which would still benefit from being in a dish. You could use paper towels over newspaper to cover his box - using towels daily must be either expensive or a lot of work, though I'm sure he appreciates how soft they are to lie on.


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## FlyingPigeon

This is my other black bird or velvet? He kind of does have a tail band, but it is really hard to tell. He has white on his lower back though. Mainly he is black.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYIMpZBoqTs&feature=autoplay&list=ULoUiAWGOihFU&playnext=1

The mix is a standard mix that I believe is used for cockatails. This is because I used to have one. That was what my pigeon started to eat, and white raw rice. He no longer eats the white raw rice. Sometimes I do make egg with rice and he likes to eat it. 

Do you think the new comer will be able to perch on something like a stick with his injured leg? He only stands for a little while then goes back to laying down. I think maybe buying 3 perches for my other pigeons could maybe be helpful in controlling where the droppings drop. Though I guess the perches would have to be really high to get them interested? I have no bricks, but I could look for a flat rock. That or maybe a little carton box that is wide enough for him. How about a perch for like a parrot? At least for my other birds. Before I placed his food on a small dish, but then he started laying on top of the dish. Basically boxing his body in the dish. I did not think that was good for his leg so I removed it. He looks a little stronger now so I can give it another try.

It is okay about the towels. I give all my birds towels specially my other spread/velvet who cannot perch because of his legs. He basically recognizes white towels as his home bedding and will always fly and lay down on them if you spread one anywhere. That is his home!

I do need to add the peas and lentils. I have tried adding them about 2 years ago, but my spread/velvet? did not like them. My new birds, red/new comer, might like them. I will try to get some husk less sun flower seeds. I normally just peel them one by one for my spread/velvet He kind of does have a tail pattern, but it is kind of hard to tell. I'm not sure.


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## Print Tippler

It looks t pattern. Hard to see from here. A bird with the spread factor is as black as the tail band on every feather. If your top half of the bird looks black but the lower half is blueish then its not spread. Also to the best of my knowledge i do think they will ever have a white rump like above.


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## spirit wings

they really should have a pigeon mix..not the cocktiel seed.. you may beable to find some at a feedstore.


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## nycpigeonlady

Pigeons don't like the stick type perches like tree-dwelling birds - their ancestors were cliff dwellers, so they prefer flat perches like ledges. You can improvise anything - a flat rock, a shelf, a box, a cinder block......
Since your birds are used to an established diet they may not eat the newly introduced seeds right away, but they will in time, so you mustn't give up. Usually smaller seeds seem less intimidating to them, and there are really tiny lentils out there, especially if you can make it to a health food store or Asian grocery. They'll probably take to the pigeon mix readily - it has some small variety peas that you can not find in a human store, and is perfectly balanced nutritionally. You could still mix in just a little bit of the cockatiel mix with it since you have it, while you are switching them over.


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## FlyingPigeon

The non cockatail feed was from a store here called John's feed 2 in L.A. I asked in another thread if this was a good feed, but people still said that it lacked things like the ones you mentioned. Does anyone know any pigeon specialized store in L.A. that sells good pigeon feed? It looks like bird shops don't sell good pigeon mix. That or I can just try mixing my own. I will try to get my hands on some small peas and the other seeds you mentioned. I really should invest in sun flower seed that have no husk too. 

Anyway, the new comer that I now call "Wee", because he sounds just like a baby still, is now flight capable! He flew to the top corner of my place. So, he can fly now, but still hops around on one leg. It looks like his other leg is stronger now and he can put some weight on it. This leads me to wonder on when I will release him back outside. My guess is that if he can fly and he can eventually walk he should get his freedom back, right? He still shys away from me when I change his bedding. I let him fly a little in the room we have. One thing I noticed is that he prefers to hop away from me than fly instantly when I try to grab him. My red on the other hand instantly flys away. Maybe his other wing still hurts a little. When I first took him in he could not fly or walk. I am glad he is getting stronger.

Also, I noticed that my white dove has a little bit of a nesting instinct going. Though he seems to want to make his nest inside where my other 2 pigeons have their nest. I do have another cage nearby that is the same size, but not as well covered for privacy. I am going to try and see if he can use that as him home. I think he just wants to belong to the pigeon group, but sadly my red and her HUSBAND? don't really like him. I think it is because my white dove is really loud and mischievous.


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## nycpigeonlady

FlyingPigeon said:


> I think he just wants to belong to the pigeon group, but sadly my red and her HUSBAND? don't really like him. I think it is because my white dove is really loud and mischievous.


When pigeons are nesting they chase away all others from their nesting area, especially single male pigeons, who can be dangerous to the babies. If it was me, I'd get the dove a mate instead of let the pigeon couple have babies, and have everyone on fake eggs.


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## FlyingPigeon

Hi,

Yeah, that is a good idea. I will get myself some fake eggs and switch them on the next batch. I managed to buy some lentils, but I think the only one eating them is Wee. Also, Wee has been getting more energetic lately. He now wants to get out of his little spot and fly about. His still hops on one leg, but his leg looks stronger now. He still squeals like a baby bird. I'm wondering about releasing him, but I sometimes feel concerned over him. I know he deserves his freedom, but should I maybe wait until he stops squealing like a baby? I really think I should at least wait until he can stand on both legs with out hopping on one. It also worries me that when I try to grab him he doesn't instantly fly away like my red.


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## nycpigeonlady

Great to hear Wee is doing well. I definitely wouldn't release him until his legs are in top shape and he's flying well. The squeaking can go on for quite a while - long after they are not babies any more, so that should not be a consideration. Usually they squeak until they are 2-3 months old, but some exception can go on squeaking until 6 months old.


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## FlyingPigeon

Wee seems to get a little out of breath from flying a little. I don't blame him since he spent about a week laying down in the spot I made him. He took flight again today and my three pigeons got together. Wee has nice and long wings. He can fly pretty well. He can put weight on his other leg and stand on both, but still doesn't walk normally. It is like a little hop like when you injure your leg, but you can still walk on it just not so well. My guess is that maybe in one more week he will be ready. I think he is a male. I am no pigeon expert, but the look of his beak makes me think male. I have no experience in this though. Oh, I noticed after I took out Wee that he has a lot of bird lice. He is so cute and cuddle I am trying my best not to do that. I just can't help but to gently cradle him when I do take him out to change his bedding. What kind of pigeon do you think Wee is? He is on the right side of that picture. On the left is my other pigeon. Yeah, I need to clean the spot they are standing on. I'm going to do that right now . I kind of put it off for a little while. Woops!


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## nycpigeonlady

Yes, he is cute, as are your two others. He's young, but definitely not a baby. It's hard to tell at this stage whether they're male or female. As to the wings - at this age their wings look really long and prominent, but that's because their bodies haven't filled out yet. Is he open mouth breathing after flying a little? I'd keep an eye on that to see which way it goes. Sounds like his leg simply needs more time.


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## Skyeking

*Check this link and call local feed stores in your area for pigeon seed, your birds require it.

*http://www.yellowpages.com/los-angeles-ca/feed-stores


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## FlyingPigeon

hi guys. Thanks for the link! Today i'm going to go out and buy some more feed for my pigeons  and my dove lol. 

Wee doesn't open his mouth when he flies around a lot. My dove did chase him a little and the one who finished opened mouth was my dove lol. Though it was also hot, so he probably just got really hot.

So, from the time I made my first post about the eggs that got laid, then to the time it is now.... The eggs should hatch in one more week? Maybe a day or two extra?


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## FlyingPigeon

ok guys something weird is happening. Recently my dove has been flying and repeatedly pooping at me LOL. I thought it was an oopsie on his part the first few times, but now it happens all the time for the past couple of days. What is going on? Is this some kind of love? Because if it is he sure is giving me a lot of it! What's going on help before I get buried under it all! Lol











Should I strap my umbrella for life next to my chair???


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## FlyingPigeon

I have another question. Wee has been pretty wrestles ever since his wing got better. Today he still can't put all his weight on his injured leg, but he is doing much better. Well, I have been letting Wee fly around the room since he just doesn't like being locked up in his spot I made for him when he was sick. I thought it would be a good idea since he could gain some stamina as he flys around inside here. But I wonder if this is an ok thing to do? Will this be good or bad for him since I do plan to release him maybe in two weeks? If his legs stop hurting him by then, but he is looking much better. I still don't know if it is a he or she, but his voice is different now. We don't cuddle him or grab him unless we go out and have to put him back in his spot. He flys away if you try t touch him. Now he does. Before he didn't or maybe he just couldn't. Maybe he learned that from that my red lol


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## nycpigeonlady

I don't see anything wrong with letting him fly around - he needs the exercise before his release or his muscles will be pretty sore once he's out there. Just give him time until he's using his leg as normal and it sounds like he'll be ready to go. 

I've no idea what the pooping means, I've never had that happen. I've had pigeons do quite the opposite - hold their poop while they're being held and let it out the as soon as they jump off my lap.


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## FlyingPigeon

Thanks for that reply. Well its starting to get close to the date for the eggs, but today my red has not been sitting on them much. My spread doesn't sit on them either. I think she might be starting to give up on them. What if there are babies inside? Should I check? or should I not? If so how do I do that and what do I need to do if they are fertile?

Wee has been looking good. I think I can release him back into the wild this saturday.


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## FlyingPigeon

http://imageshack.us/f/151/picture239d.jpg
http://imageshack.us/f/24/picture237r.jpg
http://imageshack.us/f/585/picture235t.jpg

Since my red was no longer sitting on them at all today I decided to check and see if there was anything inside. I took these pictures. I did not see anything inside other than the yolk and the air sack. I'd think that by now there would be more than that. Pictures are up here. I don't believe I saw any blood vessels either. Advice please!


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> http://imageshack.us/f/151/picture239d.jpg
> http://imageshack.us/f/24/picture237r.jpg
> http://imageshack.us/f/585/picture235t.jpg
> 
> Since my red was no longer sitting on them at all today I decided to check and see if there was anything inside. I took these pictures. I did not see anything inside other than the yolk and the air sack. I'd think that by now there would be more than that. Pictures are up here. I don't believe I saw any blood vessels either. Advice please!


The eggs are not fertile.


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## nycpigeonlady

I agree with Spiritwings - there's no embryo. But don't take the eggs away, because she'll then lay others depleting her calcium reserve. Let them sit on them for as long as they like, though it sounds like they'll give them up soon anyway. You can obviously toss them once they truly abandon them.


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## Shadowringneck23

*Candle the Egg*

If you candle the egg, you will be able to see if there is an embryo inside.


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## spirit wings

Shadowringneck23 said:


> If you candle the egg, you will be able to see if there is an embryo inside.


That is what she did and posted links to the picture.. the eggs are not fertile.


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## Shadowringneck23

*Responsibility*

Generally the male and female will share the responsibility of warming the egg. I wouldn't be too concerned.


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## FlyingPigeon

Okay here is an update:

My red is no longer sitting on the eggs. My velvet never really sat on them either (My guess is inexperience). My red sat on them just about all the time except when she'd step out to eat. She no longer even sits at the spot where the eggs are located. I guess that means it is time to remove the eggs. When I candled the eggs with a little very bright light I saw no dark spot inside. I only saw the yolk (Yellow circle in the center) and the water egg white. Also the air sac. I'd think that by now (About 3 weeks?) There would be something darker and bigger inside. Would taking them outside and burying them in the earth be a good idea? I kind of feel bad just throwing them away.


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## Shadowringneck23

*Proper Burial*

I would make sure that the eggs are infertile, and then bury them in the earth as a sign of respect for the birds. Throwing eggs away seems cruel. It may be best to replace them with wooden ones when you steal the infertile ones so that she will not lay more eggs at this time.


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## spirit wings

FlyingPigeon said:


> Okay here is an update:
> 
> My red is no longer sitting on the eggs. My velvet never really sat on them either (My guess is inexperience). My red sat on them just about all the time except when she'd step out to eat. She no longer even sits at the spot where the eggs are located. I guess that means it is time to remove the eggs. When I candled the eggs with a little very bright light I saw no dark spot inside. I only saw the yolk (Yellow circle in the center) and the water egg white. Also the air sac. I'd think that by now (About 3 weeks?) There would be something darker and bigger inside. Would taking them outside and burying them in the earth be a good idea? I kind of feel bad just throwing them away.


.really?.. give them to the crows they like to eat them..they are nothing more than like a chicken's egg you eat for breakfast at this point..


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## spirit wings

Shadowringneck23 said:


> I would make sure that the eggs are infertile, and then bury them in the earth as a sign of respect for the birds. Throwing eggs away seems cruel. It may be best to replace them with wooden ones when you steal the infertile ones so that she will not lay more eggs at this time.




THE EGGS ARE NOT FERTILE..THEY NEVER WERE AND ARE NOT NOW.


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## Shadowringneck23

*Infertile*

Then just replace them with wooden eggs and move on.


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## FlyingPigeon

Okay, well, I guess I acted too late in everything. My red is already laying another batch of eggs. She was no longer sitting on the previous eggs. They were just sitting there and she started making a nest on the opposite side of the cage. I took out the eggs, like, I think two days ago. Well, she is laying more eggs now. Okay, I need to buy some fake eggs. Could someone please let me know of some high quality fake eggs for pigeons? I think I have read there are wood and, I think, porcelain? eggs? I think some are better than the others, at least from what I read a while back on it. I'd rather pick the better more effective set over the other. Someone please help me out. I was at least able to change most of the towels inside. Yesterday my velvet was really busy gathering nesting material. I did now know it was because my red was about to lay more eggs. The other eggs I moved into my refrigerator inside two plastic bags. I am going to go out an bury them sometime soon.

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2983/picturesio.jpg


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## spirit wings

Any of the eggs sold at pigeon supply sites (google pigeon supply) will work. or you can boil the eggs and return them while you are waiting on you're fake ones.


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## Charis

This supply is in the LA area. 

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-template/store_home/Page.bok


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## FlyingPigeon

Thanks for that link. What is the difference between hollow and wooden eggs? I read that you can fill the hollow ones with sand so they can be more life like? Is this true? Or are they use for another purpose? Are wooden better than hollow?


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## Jay3

Wooden ones you don't have to fill. They pretty much look like real ones, and weigh like them.


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## Skyeking

FlyingPigeon said:


> Thanks for that link. What is the difference between hollow and wooden eggs? I read that you can fill the hollow ones with sand so they can be more life like? Is this true? Or are they use for another purpose? Are wooden better than hollow?


*You can't fill wooden ones they are solid wood. *


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## Jay3

Skyeking said:


> *You can't fill wooden ones they are solid wood. *


They were talking about filling the hollow eggs, versus using the wooden eggs. I believe they know that you can't fill the wooden ones. 

Anyway I use the wooden ones and I like them.


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## Skyeking

FlyingPigeon said:


> * What is the *difference* between hollow and wooden eggs?





Skyeking said:


> * * You can't fill wooden ones they are solid wood. *





Jay3 said:


> They were talking about filling the hollow eggs, versus using the wooden eggs. I believe they know that you can't fill the wooden ones.


** I was responding to the above question.*


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## FlyingPigeon

Okay I order a set I hope they will work. I found another injured pigeon. He can walk, but cannot seem to fly. He eats a little bit of food. Doesn't seem to have a huge appetite. Doesn't hop on one leg either. He does seem to stand with feathers all fluffed up. He is pretty aware since he gets scared if I change his water or food. He also has these weird creatures on him. They look like flies, but are not flies. They seem to like burrowing below his feathers. What should I do about these creatures? Are they making him sick? 

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4729/picturefn.jpg


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## Jay3

Bird mite and lice spray at any pet shop, or Permethrin dust. Seven dust 5% sold at grain places or garden centers. Apply whatever you get to the bird without getting any near his face.


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## nycpigeonlady

The weird creatures are pigeon flies and almost all ferals have them.
Did you inspect your new rescue's wing and leg joints to make sure there are no swellings - both sides should feel symmetrical. It's an adult, right?


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## FlyingPigeon

It doesn't make noises like a baby and it has no yellow hairs. I think it is an adult. I have no real experience so I am not sure. This one spends most of its time kind of fluffed up. He doesn't exactly seem sick, but maybe depressed? When I reach in to change his food and water he reacts quickly and scared. He also flaps his wing attacking my hand. He looks to be pretty aware of things. Just doesn't act like Wee did. I checked his legs and wings. I did not feel any lumps so I think he is okay there. His flap attacks are strong. He bit my finger, but it did not feel that bad. He does have a lot of those fly pigeon mite things. His crop felt nice and full with seeds he is eating .

I got some green pine cone grass that is nice and long like the dry ones I got. Should I go ahead and dry these or can they be used green? I will have to wash them because they feel a little dirty. Can the dry ones also be washed and be left out to dry? is it okay to wash them?

I also noticed that when I started to give my pigeons the garlic oil their poop started to get a little water and green. Dark green color. I also got the fake eggs now I'm going to wait till my red gives up then I'll add the eggs in there for her.


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## Jay3

If he is spending most of his time fluffed up, then he is not well. Have you checked his throat to see if there are any canker nodules down there?

As far as the eggs, you don't add them when she gives up on her eggs. You wait til she has eggs, then you switch them out for the fake ones.


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## FlyingPigeon

I will have to check his throat later today. Right now my roomates are asleep and I don't want to wake them. Yesterday I took a video for you guys to see the pigeon. I was changing the food and water and bedding so I thought it'd be a good idea. There were a couple of times when he tried to run away. He did not fly though. Just walked away in a hurry. After a little while he just sat down and laid still watching me change things. After I changed everything I placed him back in. He is very docile I guess he must be sick? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h56-fmxmaew


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## Skyeking

Follow these steps for stabilizing this bird:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-8822.html


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## FlyingPigeon

What do you think the problem with the bird is? I will have to buy a heating pad if he needs heat. California has been kind of hot lately and we have been feeling it. We don't use air conditioner. Just a fan sometimes. Are you sure I should still provide a heating pad for him? Should I also add salt and sugar to his water? He has survived I think for 3 days. He does seem to eat since I have felt his crop and it does feel full with seeds. Aside from adding salt and sugar to his water (If I need to do that?) must I do anything else? I checked his beak and it doesn't look like he has cankers but it was not easy to look inside. I took a picture. One thing I noiced is that his crop? is all the way down I marked it red in the picture. I am not sure if it is his crop. It does feel like there are seeds in there. Almost feels like a lump? Is it normal for their stomach or crop to be filed all the way down there? I dont have a heating pad So I placed him in a large, large, carton box next to my window so the sun can hit the box. That should warm it up slightly until I can get a heating pad... If it is needed???? Should I still add the sugar and salt to his water? Does he look dehydrated? his tail keeps hanging low. He stills seems as aware and active as he was. Bit my finger and used his wings to flap attack. He just doesn't fly. he feels to me like a sick bird. Something is certainly up. 


http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2219/picture006ds.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4525/picture004ec.jpg
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/548/picture003uap.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6030/picture002qy.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6727/picture001bcj.jpg

As I mentioned before after I gave all my pigeons the garlic oil their droppings kind of turned green ish. Is that normal?Those droppings are of the new pigeon the sick one. I just noticed they were kind of green so I thought I'd add about the oil doing it to my birds.


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## FlyingPigeon

Sorry guys. Kind of got an anxiety problem and had some rapid palpitations. I was in the ER this past time. The injured pigeon was alive last night when I got back from the hospital. Sadly today he passed away. Ill have to bury him later today and focus on recovery for myself. Thanks for the help guys.


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## FlyingPigeon

I was wondering if I find another pigeon would it be possible to take it to an animal shelter of some kind? If so what should I look for? I think they would be better equipped to take care of an injured bird.


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## nycpigeonlady

Sorry you were not feeling well - I hope you're better now. 
The problem is that many shelters don't take pigeons, and even some that will take them will simply euthanize them, but if you post your location we can see what's available in your area.


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## FlyingPigeon

Oh  That is sad to hear. I am slowly starting to feel better, and I am going to have to go see my psychologist for extra help. I live in L.A. near China town basically. I hope there is some kind of shelter that takes in pigeons and doesn't kill them. Its just that when I see an injured bird I feel like I want to help, but due to my anxiety and heart condition and living in a really small place it makes it really hard . Thank you so much nice pigeon lady


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## Pigeonpuff

*My Pigeon's First Egg Too*

I have two pigeons, a male satinette and a roller whose gender I didn't know until recently. When I first got them in September Mikey (the satinette) would always chase and bully Prue (the roller). After a while, though, the pecking order was reversed and Prue became the one in charge. Soon after THAT Mikey gave up all efforts of fighting back. About a month ago I noticed Mikey and Prue fight and then directly after that preen each other. Sometimes one would reach for the other's beak and the other one would turn their head away, as if slightly annoyed.

Yesterday I saw Prue all fluffed up and sitting in the bedding at the bottom of the coop. Prue, being the more timid one, always stands up alertly when I open the coop. But that particular time Prue did nothing and stayed fluffy. I took their water bowl to refill and when I returned Prue was in the same position. I reached for her, thinking that she may be sick but this only caused Prue's fluff to retreat, revealing an egg!!! I got help and moved a heating pad from the shelf above Prue and while I held her and her egg up the pad was slipped underneath. Where I am in New York it is freezing cold and I didn't want the embryo, if the was one, to die. Next we packed bedding around her and some pieces of wood to create a nest box.

What I would like to know is if I did the right thing in moving the heating pad because Prue does not seem very interested in sitting on her egg. I have heard they don't sit on the egg until the second is laid, and as I said I really didn't want it to die if it was a fertilized egg.(I had been begging for more pigeons for my 12th birthday but was denied it. So Prue laid me one the day before !). The only other source of heat in their coop it a reptile night heat bulb. The coop is very small but drafty. My dad and I have been working on an aviary, but the snow has prevented it from being finished. We bought the coop as a kit but it turned out to be very badly made. I hope to build a bigger, better one when the weather is warm because I have access to tools and a lot of spare wood. For now my pigeons are not allowed inside unless there is truly lots of snow and they may abandon their nest if it is relocated.

So what I would really like is any advice or information from a person who has been through this. I'm worried about the egg and i can bring it inside if I am sure they will not care for it. Well, at least I am sure Prue is a girl and if this one does not work I will give them the proper materials so they can try again. Thanks for reading all this!!


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## Jay3

YOu shouldn't be letting them breed in this cold weather. When you have pigeons, then you need to have fake eggs, and when they have the eggs, you then switch them out for the fake ones. That way, they will believe that it is their eggs, and will sit on them for the 18 days or so, before having more eggs. Letting them breed in this cold is taking a chance of too many things going wrong. Many people have had babies freeze to death. I would switch them when she has the second one, and wait till spring to let them breed.
If you don't have fake eggs, just boil them and return them to them after they have cooled to warm. That way, they can sit on them just like fake eggs.


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