# 17 day old baby feral dove



## nikku-chan

About 5 days ago, i found a baby dove in my backyard at the base of the date palm that is home to a flock of feral doves.

Based on the day-by-day photos of racing pigeon babies here, I have concluded that she is about 17 days old now. 

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

At first i fed her oatmeal, but a wildlife rescue person said to feed her soaked puppy biscuits (pal pedigree puppy). A single biscuit is about this long. <-->

I've been feeding baby every 6-8 hours. She seems constantly hungry though..and eats about 25 soaked biscuits at once. She cheeps for more, but i'm afraid that if i give her more i might be overfeeding her, because afterwards her crop feels quite plump (still soft, but with some resistance). Should i feed her more until she stops cheeping?

I leave budgie seed on the bottom of the aquarium which she eats keenly between meals. When am i supposed to start weaning her and how should this be done? How much do i reduce her dog biscuits by?

She flaps her wings pretty well, but can't fly yet. I want to take her outside, but i'm worried that she might suddenly take off over the fence. When a bird first starts to fly, can it make it over a backyard fence? And might other doves attack her because she's a baby?

Also, when will she graduate to an outside cage?

Thanks!


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## Feefo

Hello and welcome!

It sounds as if you are doing really well with the dove. The amount of food you are giving sounds OK...Do you know what kind of dove you have? Some fledge a lot quicker than pigeons.

I wouldn't let it practice flying outside until it is weaned, has learnt to recognise its natural food and has developed its flight muscles.

We might have members with experience of your specific type of dove, it is always best to be advised with hands on experience, so more information or a photo will help.


Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

Thanks for replying!

I assume she's a rock dove, or a "feral dove", as some people call them.

I'm from Australia, and the doves nesting in my date palm are the same time that live in the city.

Perhaps looking at other photos now, she is closer to 3 weeks old..
Her name is Pecky. Should i avoid unnecessary contact with her, or are love and cuddles okay because she's still a baby?

It's just that i want to release her back to live with her colony when she's older, and i don't want to jeopardise her chances. 

She started flapping her wings so vigorously tonight that she almost took off!

I'll post a few pictures in the morning.


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## Pidgey

They do a lot of that (hovering and near-hovering) as they get older. Is she drinking water on her own?

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

nope, i haven't seen her drink her water yet,
but she loves to poo in it.
It seems to be her favourite toilet spot.

Should i still be worrying about keeping her warm? She's living in a glass aquarium sitting in my bathtub..
I fill a bottle up with hot tap water every night which she often seems to sit on like she;s cold..but then i often find her sitting well away from the bottle too, like she's hot.

It's summer here in australia...it's been around 30 C lately..so it isn't all that cold at night.

Also, should i take her outside in a small cage tomorrow for a few hours to get some sunlight? she's living in my bathroom, which gets it's share of sun, but not direct light.

Sometimes, when she gets super enthused about food..she tries to swallow my fingers.


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## Pidgey

Well, you need to guide her beak down into some water part way. She's not going to know how to drink it at first so she has to be taught. She's certainly going to be needing it.

She's not going to get cold at those temperatures, not at her age anyway.

If you take her out, you'll just have to be wary of predators.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

I've taken a stack of photos..


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## TAWhatley

What a darling baby! Looks like a baby pigeon (aka rock dove, rock pigeon) to me!

Terry


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## nikku-chan

.............


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## Matt D.

Yes the feet are very dark... looks to me like a rock dove too... if you have an hearbal tea you can make that and then cool it and give it to her in her water in a 50:50 solution of the tea and drinking water... i do this alot for my birds... it promotes better oxygen flow and the bird is just all around more healthy... it does the same thing for pigeons as it does for us.


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## Matt D.

Healthy pigeon... poops are alittle watery... but looks like they aren't too bad.


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## nikku-chan

In one of the photos you can see how big her soaked biscuits are..
so 25 isn't too much?
Her crop seemed like it could be emptier this morning..and i hadn't fed her for about 10 hours.

After every feeding..she squeaks for more like she's still hungry..
and then pecks frantically at the seed i've left for her. she won't overdose on seed will she?

Thanks for the tip! i have plenty of tea for her.
I tried introducing her to water, but she didn't like it at all.
She shook her beak to get away and splashed it around..but didn't drink.
She knows what she wants, and she hates anyone else to tell her what to do!


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## nikku-chan

whoops..the pics didn't post.
here they are.
Sorry..i got a little picture happy..
I just want to show her off


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## Matt D.

If that is her water in the bottom pic... it needs to be in a shallow bowl. Maybe you can cut the top half off the cup?


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## Pidgey

The water isn't as important if the biscuits are soaked. Eventually, you're going to want her to start going for drier stuff and learning to drink her own water.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

To give you an idea how much they do eat at that age, though, the book says that they should get approximately 10 to 15% of their weight per meal, three times per day. Actual feedings vary, of course.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

hehe thanks for the concern, but that's just the bowl i use to soak her food in.
her water dish is quite shallow..i think it's pictured in her aquarium photo.


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## TerriB

nikku-chan said:


> ...her water dish is quite shallow..i think it's pictured in her aquarium photo.


Make sure the drinking water is at least an inch (3-4cm) deep. Pigeons drink by sucking up the water, so need the depth.

Regarding food, an adult pigeon eats about a tablespoon of dry food twice a day. A growing youngster like yours will need a bit more. In the photos, the crop looked pretty empty to me. Was that before or after feeding?


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## nikku-chan

ahh..maybe her water dish is just a tad too shallow..i'll give her a deeper one.

That was before feeding.
Next time i feed, i'll post a picture afterwards..

I have a few questions...

1. I haven't been to a pet shop yet, but all i could find at the supermarket in terms of seed was budgie, parrot, and canary..

I read somewhere that doves like to eat greens..so i bought some budgie seed with fruit and greens in it..but now i'm not so sure. Is fruit bad for baby doves?

The seed mix contains: White French millet, Panicum millet, red panicum millet, plain canary, japanese millet, linseed, canola, lucerne grass, parsely, currents, paw paw, aviary grit and apricots.

If fruit is bad, can i just pick it out?

2. I also bought some frozen corn and peas. How much corn and peas should be substituted for her dog biscuits? about half? or less?

3. I heard that apple cider vinegar is good for the tummy. If i added a drop into the food soaking water would that be the right amount?


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## Matt D.

Do not give her seeds unless they are dried. I believe that it will cause health issues, or so I have been told and it says so in every other pigeon book i read. yes apple cider vinegar is good, or so Becky (Mary of Exeter) tells me. Don't feed her greens yet. That is "big boy" stuff. No fruits. Just pick it out. Depeding on the size of you soaking glass... If it is about 2 cups i would say 4 drops but i am no where close to being an expert at vinegar yet... i have only just started.


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## nikku-chan

I assume the seeds are dried..they're just like normal bird seed.
So the lucerne grass is not okay for her to eat yet?
Too bad, it's all mixed through the seed.

I guess i'll go to the petshop tomorrow..
If they don't have dove/pigeon mix, what is the best mix to buy? wild bird?
The seeds just seem so huge in wild bird mix.


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## TAWhatley

Wild bird seed mix will be fine .. your youngster is big enough to handle that. Just watch the sunflower seeds .. if they are the small black oil sunflower seeds, that's fine .. it the sunflower seeds are the large striped seeds, then those are not good. If you do get to see dove/pigeon mix, you'll see that the peas in it are even larger than the seeds in the wild bird mix. You're doing just fine with this young pigeon, so don't stress too much. I don't think any of us really have much of an idea what they end up having to eat in the "wild", so just about anything that we provide to them in the form of bird seed is going to be OK.

Terry


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## nikku-chan

okay...so feeding her dog food is fine for now then? no peas or corn?..with seed on the bottom of her cage (which she eats, but she loves to eat from my hands more)

What age should i start weaning her? I'm feeding her 3 times a day at present..so that she picks up seeds in between if she's hungry.

So you're saying that soaking dried seed and mixing it in with her food is bad? i should just let her pick it up from the ground?

ALSO,

Given that she's a Rock Pigeon, will i be able to train her like a homing pigeon? By "homing pigeon" i just mean, if i build a cage type thing for her to nest in, and let her free during the day, will she come back every night to her nest? Or nest with the flock of pigeons living in the date palm in my backyard?

I have a book from the library that offers very gradual training techniques for homing birds..could i use these techniques for her? 

If I can't train her this way, Should i limit contact with her, so that she stays wild?

I'd hate to put her in a cage her whole life..I don't have one big enough, and letting her roam free in my house isn't an option as i have an indoor cat.

She's becoming so much prettier..she's almost entirely black!

Thanks!


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## MaryOfExeter

As long as you have a cage for her outside, she'll come back to it after letting her out everyday. All pigeons have just enough homing instinct to do that 
However, the actual "training" for homers...like taking them and letting them go...and they come back...the little guy will probably get lost. But yeah if you have to put her outside, keep her in the cage for about...eh...a few weeks, then you can let her out and she should come back in the cage. She may decide to be friends with the ferals roosting in your yard though since pigeons feel safer in numbers.


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## nikku-chan

okay...that's good to know...thanks.

And what about weaning? She's about 20 days old right now. Should i start now, or in a week?

Should i gradually reduce the amount of dog biscuits i'm giving her each feeding so she eats more seed in between?

Or should i reduce the number of times a day i feed her?


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## nikku-chan

I just went to the pet shop and bought some pigeon mix.
It consists of barley looking seeds, huge kernels of corn, and red and green dried whole peas.

She pecks at it, holds it in her beak, tries to crunch it a bit, then drops it.
The only seed she seems to like is budgie seed.

Should i stop feeding her budgie and make her persevere with the pigeon seed?

I guess she isn't ready for weaning if she won't even touch the seeds she's supposed to eat!

are you sure i shouldn't pick the corn out? It's HUGE! surely it would choke her..or lacerate her little throat..or something..


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## Coolpigeon

Give your baby pigeon the small seeds. You should take out the large corn and let her handle the little seeds til she grows up more. Some dont like corn.


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## nikku-chan

by "small seeds", do you mean the smaller seeds in the pigeon mix, or the budgie mix?

She doesn't even seem to eat the smallest seeds in the pigeon mix..


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## nikku-chan

She is now eating the small pigeon seeds!
It was like something turned on in her brain. She eats every one she picks up! Even the whole peas


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> I just went to the pet shop and bought some pigeon mix.
> It consists of barley looking seeds, huge kernels of corn, and red and green dried whole peas.
> 
> She pecks at it, holds it in her beak, tries to crunch it a bit, then drops it.
> The only seed she seems to like is budgie seed.
> 
> Should i stop feeding her budgie and make her persevere with the pigeon seed?
> 
> I guess she isn't ready for weaning if she won't even touch the seeds she's supposed to eat!
> 
> are you sure i shouldn't pick the corn out? It's HUGE! surely it would choke her..or lacerate her little throat..or something..



Hi nikku, 



Provide her with "small" size, whole Seeds...such as Finch Seed, Canary Seed, or the likes.


White Safflower is one which Doves like very much, and these can be mixed in to the other Seeds.

Niger Seed, Rape Seed or other small size 'Bird' Seeds are excellent also to add some of.


The White Safflower is about tha largest Seed a Mourning Dove will eat.

If these are hard to find locally, you can order small packages of them on-line.

Fresh dark Leavy Greens, Kale, Collard, Endive, Beet Tops etc, cut into 1/8th inch sized 'diamonds', useing Scissors, will be a very good food for her to have some of a couple times-a-week...just put a little pile of this next to her Seeds, and, if need be, encourage her to eat them by you 'pecking' at them with your crook'd index finger.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison

Hi Nikku, 



Lol...


Your Bird is a "Pigeon"...



I thought we were dealing with a Mourning Dove, or similar 'small' Dove Species.


I just went back, and, reviewed the images you posted, and, this is a Pigeon, not a 'Dove'...



So, your Pigelon is fine to eat Pigeon 'sized' Seeds...but stay away from any larger types of Sunflower Seeds please...or, remove them from the 'mix' if they are there, just to be on the safe side.


As Terry mentioned earlier, the quite 'small' kind, called 'Black Oil Sunflower" Seeds would be fine, and these are about 5/16ths of an inch long...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB

The nice thing is that pigeons will generally graduate themselves to the larger seeds as their pickup-the-seed skills improve. Glad your bird is doing so well!


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## nikku-chan

awesome thanks guys.

So will she still benefit from greens this early since she's a pigeon and not a dove? She's about 22 days old now..i heard someone else say that greens are only "big boy" stuff.

Thankfully, there aren't any sunflower seeds in her mix. I bought it from a pet store ( i assume they mix it themselves), and it was quite cheap.

It contains wheat, red and green peas, corn, and rusty reddish small round seeds. Is this okay for her? I saw in another thread that someone was naming WAY more seeds than are in my pigeon mix.

She eats everything but the corn and the wheat. (she hates the wheat with a passion, but loves the peas. Sometimes, she plays with the peas, bouncing them on the floor, then running after them, and bouncing them again)

Is she old enough to go outside now? I have a rabbit hutch she could stay in. It has chicken wire, and then a wooden room with a hole in it, that she could hide/sleep in.

It's just, the aquarium is too small for her now..she can't stretch her wings enough.

And lastly..i cannot get her to drink. I had to syringe water into her last night because she;d eaten alot of seed and i was scared it wouldn't break down. I don't have any grit for her either.

I've tried the beak dipping method that you've all described, and it's so hard to get her head down to the water, as she tucks it in. I tried tilting her body towards the water, so i could dip her beak, but she ended up pushing her neck out trying to get away and submerging her whole head..

It's like she;s scared now to go near the water. Any suggestions?

Sorry for all the questions!


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku,



Offer her body-temperature Water to drink, and, if she will 'nuzzle' your fingers, just gently guider her Beak into the tepid Water...

Young Pigeons HATE cold or cool Water...but, this changes later.


Greens are very good for any Pigeon or Dove of any age...


Never leave a Pigeon or other Bird unattended in any sort of make do outside 'coop'...


If she is pecking, scatter some seeds on the ground, outside, and, peck with her out there...once she is flying, do not risk her escape untill she is for sure old enough and able to fend for herself.


Best thing to do, allow her some supervised outings some place Pigeons grae and will reliably be found...you scatter a bunch of Seeds for them, where ( you crouch close and stay STILL, so she knows and sees you are there watching over her, so ) she can graze and peck Seeds with the Wild/Feral Pigeons, and do that every day now if you can...then, you can release her to these same Pigeons once she is say, 45 days old or so, and she will do fine then.


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

She is now drinking!
she ran to the water dish like she'd done it a million times before!

I scattered some seed in my yard, as there is a flock of ferals living in my palm tree, but they didn't seem to understand there was food for them. I guess i should scatter food every day until they get the hint.
I took her out anyway, and stayed about 6 feet away, hoping the ferals would see her pecking and realise it was food.
She walked around lost in circles for a while..and then eventually saw me and came running to sit on my foot (her favourite place).

Are you saying don't leave them unsupervised in a hutch because they might get out or a cat might get in?

The hutch i have isn't "make-do". It's very secure...There's no way anything could get out or in. The mesh is quite small too soo she wouldn't be able to stick her head out or anything.

I just want her to get as strong as she can with the flapping...and she can't flap comfortably in her aquarium.

Do you still think it;s a bad idea?


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Squat very still on the ground where the Seeds are scattered, and 'peck' with her, encourage her to peck, you pecking also...and, or, hang back four or five feet, keeping very still, and encourage the ferals to come and graze, so she can graze with them.


Might take a while, if these ferals are not used to you and do not know you...


Let her 'flap' on ther bed, on the floor, in the house and so on, and let her continue to progress toward flying in a safe environ.


The outside thing, for lots of reasons would not be good for this situation , where you are the surrogate parent, and should not get out of sight of her for more than a few minutes at a time anyway, or, just lots of things can go wrong in outdoor pens or whatever...Cats, Snakes, Ants, kids with Pellet Guns in the next yard, who knows...


Time to toss the 'aquarium', she is of an age now where she needs to explore, excercise, play, and be gaining many kinds of practice and skills...and be allowed to socialize under your supervision, with the feral others, in this window or opportunity, before she can 'fly'.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Okay, i'll let her take over the bathroom. hehe. much to my boyfriend's horror!

I might be wrong,
but lately (as she's been eating lots of seed) she hasn't been wanting her soaked pupppy biscuits very often. She still nuzzles me like she does, but she just kinda pecks at them but doesn't eat them.
since i saw her drink before, i assume that she knows how to drink all the time, so she should be drinking enough to soften her seeds inside her crop, but her crop has been feeling really hard lately.

I'm completely inexperienced when it comes to birds, so i can't tell, but compared to before when i was feeding her the soaked puppy biscuits only, her crop seems either hard, or empty. It definitely isnt as plump as it was when she was eating the biscuits. I can't tell if the hardness is seeds in there, or just her organs and bones underneath her crop because it's empty. She has been eating though.

She has been sitting rather than standing lately as well.. She seems okay enough..but sometimes she huddles down like she;s tired more that i;ve seen at other times.
What is going on?

Is she eating enough seeds? or does she have seeds stuck in her crop that won't go down? or is she starving?


SHOULD i still leave some seeds on the ground for her to eat? Will eating more seeds help the hardness or make it worse? Should i withhold the seeds?

Also, her poos are WAY harder than they used to be, and look grey/brown with white covering the surface of the greyish brown part.

My camera just died before i could download the poo picture. but it is kind of a clay consistency.

Here are some pictures of her after she ate almost 10 soaked puppy biscuits, and some seed (about half a tablespoon to a tablespoon). Is her crop empty or do you think it;'s hard seed?

and also, when i was holding her before, i found a brownish red coloured insect about 2mm long with 2 body parts (like a beetle or something) crawling on my hand.
Lately she seems to be getting itches, that she quickly scratches with her beak, like something is attacking her. could this be lice?

I thought she was doing so well before all of this!


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## nikku-chan

actually, she ate more like 1/2 tablespoon of seeds.


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Offer tepid Water several times a day, meaning, "offer" it, hold it for her to drink.


She should be eating Seeds at this point...some fresh Greens cut up into tiny bits...


She should be making about 40 - 50 poops every 24 hours, if she is eating enough.


She looks pretty good in the pictures there...probably has not been drinking enough Water, so, encourage her do drink by offering "tepid" Water several times a day.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## nikku-chan

okay maybe i was just worrying..

So her crop looks full enough in that picture?
I guess i'm just used to it being very plump, but eating seed must be different.
I'll get some greens soon, but right now i've only got bok choy. I assume it belongs to the cabbage family. Is this okay? I'll only feed the green leafy parts.

and about the insect i found on my hand? does it fit the description of lice? i've heard lice are quite long. This insect wasn't particularly long, it was kind of flat like a beetle, it didn't have visible wings like pigeon fly. It was about 2mm long.

I've tried bathing her with ACV, but she doesn't like baths yet.


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



The insect does not sound like anything but a co-incidence, so, I would not worry about it, it does not sound like it had anything to do with her at all.


Uhhhhh, I personally would not bathe a Bird in 'ACV' or "ACV-Water", or even bathe them at all unless there were some dire need to get Oil or contamination off of their Feathers.


Just letting them have access to a Frying Pan or Cake Pan of cool Water, on the floor, is plenty, and, even youngsters at some point find themselves wishing to take a Bath, but, in their terms, rather than being-bathed.


"45" poops-a-day is what you need to be looking for, rather than trying to gauge how full her crop is.


Personally, 'fresh greens' wise, I would stay with Cilantro, Parsely, Beet Tops, Carrot Tops, Kales, Chards, Collard Greens, Mustard Greens...cut with scissors into 1/8th inch diamond shapes, set into a little pile next to the Seeds...and, 'peck' at these if need be to encourage the Pigeon to try them.


Anyway, no Pigeon is going to like being GIVEN a bath...they like taking baths on their own, when they feel like it.


Lol...

And true!


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

hehe, yes, she likes to stand in her water sometimes, but she hates me putting her there!

Okay, no baths then.

I found the source of these insects just before when i was getting her seed. The bag i bought from the pet store is inside another plastic bag because some of the seed had spilled out. So there was a bit of seed at the bottom of the plastic bag. These insects were all through it!

Some kind of grain eating insect? 

Bizarre...


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## nikku-chan

Sorry, another question..

When CAN i put her in a hutch outside for the daytimes? It's a pretty big hutch and very secure..

Someone said it was a bad idea at this time..because of ants and snakes and cats etc.

But sometime else said to keep her in a cage outside for a while before i release her.

So when will she be old enough to stay in the hutch in the daytime? Provided i check her 6 or 7 times a day.

It's just, the bathroom is the only place we can let her free, because i have an indoor cat, which is very curious about her. She loves to watch under the door.
I exercise every caution, but still, It makes me nervous.


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## TAWhatley

If the outside hutch is very secure, I don't see a problem with having her outside .. she needs the direct sunshine and also a chance to start knowing her surroundings. Fresh water in a shallow pan (2 inches or so) for bathing would be fine. I think you are doing quite well with raising this little beauty.

Terry


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku, and everyone else, 




Please take what I am saying in earnest - 


If you intend to release her once she is ready, you need to be using every opportunity NOW to be with her out-doors, and, someplace where you have cultivated an acquaintance with a reliable feral flock to let her Graze with. Start now, find a flock near you, and begin.

Putting her into a coop or hutch or whatever will do absolutely no good at all, other than getting her out of your hair.


She needs you to be with her, supervising her, where she can acquire the "feral Modes of Being" from other feral Pigeons, and, you need to be doing this at least every day or every other day, before she can fly...if she hets scared, she will run back to you and you can offer comfort, and, set ber back down then for some more.

If she can get eight or ten such forays, lasting twenty minutes or a half hour each, she will gain what she needs and you will have gotten THAT part taken care of well.


So, with these forays, she gets to learn their sublte modes and social energys from the feral ADULT others, with you, her defacto-surrogate parent, watching over her as she gains confidence to peck, graze, trto over, 'Wing-Slap' invasive others, and generally learn what she needs to learn, which she is not likely to do if prevented from it by you trying to find easy or effortless ways out of this, or, prefering to get someone else to say, "Oh, sure, just put her in a shed or something..."



Since you will almost certainly loose this Bird once she CAN fly away from you, you need to do all of the 'socialization' forays you can NOW, before it is too late...and likely you will be lucky to even have a week left, before she would escape if allowed to and or be VERY hard to catch even if only half way flying or 'run flapping'.


I always begin their socialiation forays once they are pecking, or soon after, which means maybe 18 days old or 20 or so...

Because I raise themdifferently than you have, they really do regard me as their 'parent' and if they fly up to the roof or something, they will come down when called "usually"...Lol...and if not, they come down the next morning when called, and spend a few days inside till the next foray.


Almost always, they are very 'nervous', timid, and do nothing at al the first time or two...

Then, they trot over and do a little pecking, timorously, and or get bullied a little and run back to me.


Then, next round, they trot over to where the feral others are graizng, get odd looks from the various adults...sometimes 'peeping' for someone to feed them...sometimes someone does, but, either way, by now or soon, they will 'Wing Slap' a large adult of the adult nudges them in a way which offends them, they gain in confidence, they become 'Champion" peckers who really put away the Seeds FAST, and, overall, are learning what they need to know.


Please believe me, that I know what I am talking about.


For me anyway, this was never something I was anxious to keep trying to find ways out of or which I felt was just too much trouble to do.


To me...it is beautiful, it is earnest, ir is "REAL" and it is you job or mine if we have presumed TO raise one of these Birds.


Once she can just-about fly and get away from you, then, THEN, for several weeks, keep her indoors till she is about 45 days old, 50 maybe.



Let her fly indoors all she wants or can, because she needs to build MUSCLES and hone her maneuvering skills, and being in some wire 'hutch' is not going to do it.


Loan the 'Cat' out for a few weeks or something if need be, or lock the 'Cat' in the 'Bathroom', so the Bird can fly as she needs TO be doing, because 'the bathroom' is not going to make it either for her TO fly and build needed muscles and maneuvering skills...and THEN, once THAT age, at 45-50 days, WITH her having been allowed to grow up and get what she needs, then, "THEN", feed the same feral flock, and while they are grazing, release her to them gently.

Do this, and she will magage fine.



Find ways out of doing this, and she will not likely manage to do well at all if you do release her arbitrarliy, even if she disappears for you not to see her starve to death a few hundred feet away, which is likely the 'usual' fare with people's uninformed manner of raising orphan Pigeons.



So, find a feral flock, feed them every day starting now, set her next to them or close to them anyway, and crouch down and be still right there so she gan trot over to them...let her learn...and, accept that there are not 'easy' shortcuts or wishful thinkings which can substitute for what she actually needs, which is hardly all that much really, is it? No, it is not that much.


Sunshine times in the 'hutch' would be fine ONCE you can not risk her escaping, prior to her release...AFTER your however long period of supervised with wild feral others of Grazing Forays for her to learn the modes. But aqlso it can have it's dangers, and I am sure you would feel bad to find an injury or broken limb or other because she was beating herself against the sides in a panic from kids, cats, dogs, hawks or who knows what else.

No way would being in some unsupervised 'wire hutch' be as GOOD as spending real time with her, for her to have these grazing forays.


Make sense?

Just because this is a 'Bird' does not mean she will know anymore what-to-do in the wild, released arbitrarily and totally unprepaired, than you would if dropped into some wilderness completely foreign to you.


Where, if you were brought to spend time with others who DO live there, and can learn by being with them, and then are given over TO them, likely, you'd do just fine...fit in nicely, and maybe even have already made some pals to some extent.


That is the overview on this...and, I hope you decide to respect her for her sake, and to take what I have been saying in earnest.


I think if you are willing to do this, you will find it very satisfying and meaningful, and not least of all, you will be able to feel you did your best for her.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## nikku-chan

Thanks for all the info Phil. I appreciate it.

Don't get me wrong, i have been taking her outside etc etc. every day.

The Ferals still don't seem to understand that i'm scattering seeds on the ground..but i'm hoping they will soon. Any more suggestions as to how i could coax them? maybe placing bananas around the yard or something?

I didnt mean that putting her in the hutch in the daytime would be a substitute for socialisation with the ferals. I will do this too.

I just felt bad keeping her in the bathroom for the most part of the day because she needs sunshine etc.

It isn't that i want a "quick fix", or to shove the issue under the mat, it's just that my house isn't exactly the most suitable for a pigeon.

I'll let her fly around in my room when she's older (which is quite big). But my boyfriend is completely opposed to her even being in the bathroom, much less flying around the house. He doesn't like pigeons, he thinks they breed disease and no amount of information i present to him seems to change that. Just having her in the bathroom is causing arguments.

As much as i respect her, i have to respect my boyfriend as well, since he pays for half of this house, he has the right to say that he doesn't want a bird flying free in his living space. And also my cat, who is also my baby, and loaning her out is just not an option, as she's known only us all her life, and would be petrified without us. I will, however, lock her down as many times as i can (when my boyfriend is absent) to let Pecky fly til her heart is content.

I've basically spent the entire time i've had Pecky with her/making her food/cleaning her poos, letting her huddle into me/running round trying to find the right grit, and seeds, and greens etc.

If i wasn't on holidays, it would be impossible!

But i will definitely take on board all that you have said and follow it to the best of my ability.

Thanks again for the big post. I'm sure, when the ferals eventually do come down to eat the seeds, that she will get plenty of socialising...probably even more times than you have suggested, since i am on holidays and i can take her out to them more than just a few times a day.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Find some place where the ferals already graze and are used to grazing...and, feed them there and use that place for bringing your youngster.


Sunshine does not matter now except that it is pleasent.


Most feral Pigeon Babys never get any direct Sunshine till after they fledge and fly anyway...but, she will get all she needs on these grazing socialiation forays, once you can begin them.


Don't bother trying to entice the ferals to graze some place they are nervous or distrustful about, maybe there are Cats or Dogs or other issues where you had been trying...so, instead, go with what already is working, and find a place where they already are grazing and are long used to graing/forraging...small Parks are usually a good bet, vacant Lots, open areas...you will be able to see them for driving by.


Bear in mind, feral Pigeon Babys never see Seeds or Water untill AFTER they fledge and are flying to accompany their parents to grazing and forraging situations, where, they continue to be fed 'Baby Style' by their parents for some time anyway, as they gradually acquire the confidence and modes and so on to be on their own and to peck and assert themselves and become independant.


When we raise them, this manner is not very feasable, so, we tend to allow or encourage them to learn to peck much much sooner, and, we have to oversee their socialiation process "before" they can fly, since waiting till they are flyinh, would usually mean a pre-mature accidental release, and, a very compromised Bird, who is not prepaired well enough, and who probably will starve and or find no flock to join, or lack the confidence to join.


Doing this the way we can, works splendidly, even though it is a departure or re-shuffleing of the order anyway, from what otherwise would be their Natural History...


I have had many less than 20 day old 'Peepers' who for having become very able peckers in here, when I would set them amid the feral grazers outside, by the third or fourth time, the little 'peeper WOULD give an encroaching adult a very decent Baby-version of a 'Wing Chop' or even a chastising 'peck', and the adult would be completely puzzled, and, move over.


I virtually never saw any bullying to the youngster in these forays, other then incidental shoulder pushings as everyone crowds into peck...and the little mild sorts I sometimes saw, I just cleared my throat with a theatric 'Ahem' and the bully knew instantly that I was the 'guardian' of the youngster and things settled down...


Thats is what the youngster needs, they need to know you are 'there' protecting them, so they can trot back to you if they get upset or freightened...and very soon of course, they overcome their fears and nervousness and manage very well.


Then, laterm 'when they are released to "that" place, and that flock, the assimilation or transition is effortless and even enthusuastic.


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

I can't seem to find a place where pigeons graze that is close enough. In the city, there are heaps of places, but i went for a walk yesterday around my area, and didn't see/hear one pigeon!

I found some grazing in a park in the city under pine trees. Do they like pine trees? are there any particular environments that they favour?

I'm going to do a wider search this afternoon, by car.

Pecky only seems to be eating the peas and the milo in the seed mix, too. She won't swallow the wheat, and doesn't seem to think that the rape seeds are food since they're so small. Should i be worried about this? are peas and Milo enough? I don't particularly want to starve her by only placing wheat for her, as she has only just weaned. Maybe she'll like to try the wheat and rape seeds when she's a bit older, but are peas and milo enough for her right now? She completely refuses the puppy biscuits now.

She doesn't touch the grit either. It's "pigeon grit" that i bought from a fodder store. It looks more like rocks than shells though. I shouldn't be worried?

Also, her poos are only about 24-30 a day, but they're huge! Probably the size of four or five large sultanas put together. She rarely does "raisins".

By the way, my boyfriend has started warming to her. He thinks it's cute that she thinks i'm her mummy. He even let her sit on his stomach yesterday, and tried to feed her some peas.

I let her into the lounge room to hang out with us last night. Not that she did much but sleep in her nest. She seems to only flap and walk and play around when i provoke her. SHOULD i be provoking her? I don't want to deprive her of sleep, but i want her to get strong, too.

Also, i find lots of scaly kind of dead skin/dead feather bits that look a bit like finely flaked fingernails in her bed. This is normal right? It's just her previous baby bits coming out right? she preens alot.

Thanks!


----------



## nikku-chan

And some more questions..

When she was preening, and had her feathers all ruffled, i found a pink bit wit no feathers that tapered into a tip at the base of her tail feathers. She seemed to like to peck at it. Was it the tail or was it something else? You kinda have to physically search for it when she lays her feathers flat against her body.

And also, her toes don't seem to do all that much. They just kinda hang there, and i can manipulate them like they're dead or soemthing. She can use them, scrunch them up etc, i've seen her do it. But when she walks on flat surfaces etc. They kind of angle upwards, like she isnt walking using the whole toe, only the base of the feet, and the toe just comes along for the ride. is this how her toes should be?


----------



## chlee09

Nice just be sure not to bruise its nose when you are feeding, when i foster my birds i soak some cooked rice in water, it helps them grow faster. when she starts to fly you should dip her beak in water so she can learn how to drink  . Another tip* i boil lemon grass and give it to my pigeons.


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## TAWhatley

nikku-chan said:


> When she was preening, and had her feathers all ruffled, i found a pink bit wit no feathers that tapered into a tip at the base of her tail feathers. She seemed to like to peck at it. Was it the tail or was it something else? You kinda have to physically search for it when she lays her feathers flat against her body.


That is probably her uropygial (preen/oil) gland.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey Phil,
> 
> I can't seem to find a place where pigeons graze that is close enough. In the city, there are heaps of places, but i went for a walk yesterday around my area, and didn't see/hear one pigeon!
> 
> I found some grazing in a park in the city under pine trees. Do they like pine trees? are there any particular environments that they favour?



Hi nikku..!

Glad you found a place where the ferals graze and forrage...


Pigeons do not tend to roost in Trees, even if some individuals may alight on some clear portions of Branches for a little while during the day...

As for whether Pigeons like Pine Trees, not that I know of, other than, if there are Pine Cones which are loosing their Seeds, the Pigeons would definitely enjoy finding them and eating those nutritious Seeds, so, in that sense, "Yes" they probably do like Pine Trees! 



> I'm going to do a wider search this afternoon, by car.



Excellent...but of course, if the Pigeons of the Pines seemd happy, keep them and that place in mind...since they already come there for what I must guess are the Pine Cone Seeds, you could readily scatter Bird Seeds for them also, and, thus, permit your little one to have her forays...



> Pecky only seems to be eating the peas and the milo in the seed mix, too.




Yeahhhh, that is about normal for them to do.


I am sure she would like White Safflower Seeds, if they were added, which you can get 5 Pound Bags of at any Petsmart or the likes...





> She won't swallow the wheat, and doesn't seem to think that the rape seeds are food since they're so small. Should i be worried about this?




No...no worries on that...




> ...are peas and Milo enough?




Well, it is maybe less than ideal.


Get some White Safflower Seeds...

And, if you have a Health Food Store you can go to, get a small Bag of fresh ( not rancid ) "hulled" Sunflower Seed "Kernals", this is JUST the 'Kernals' and not the outer 'black' husk or hull...and, add some of those also to her Seed mix. Taste these yourself, they should taste very good, mildly sweet, and tender, not dried out or stale...




> I don't particularly want to starve her by only placing wheat for her, as she has only just weaned. Maybe she'll like to try the wheat and rape seeds when she's a bit older, but are peas and milo enough for her right now? She completely refuses the puppy biscuits now.




Yeahhhh, just never mind on the Wheat...none of mine like it either, and, probably they have a reason for that for all we know...so, if she does not want it, thats fine...

Get some plain, old time, nothing aqdded to it, old fashioned "Plain" Popping Corn...the kind having the smallest size Kernals. Grocerys carry bags of this for like 99 Cents, white or yellow...it is just a lastic bag of plain dried Corn Kernals, and NOT the 'microwave' kind which has a lot of bad stuff added to it...so, plain dried Corn then of this kind, and add these to her Seeds also.

Mine all love it, and I am sure she will too!

...and it is good for them.




> She doesn't touch the grit either. It's "pigeon grit" that i bought from a fodder store. It looks more like rocks than shells though. I shouldn't be worried?



No, no worries on that either...if she is not interested, that is fine, it is not critical for now, and later, she will become interested at some point, on her own time-table...or, when seeing other Pigeons pecking tiny rocks and so on, she will decide to do so also.




> Also, her poos are only about 24-30 a day, but they're huge! Probably the size of four or five large sultanas put together. She rarely does "raisins".



Outstanding..!!!


Well done..!




> By the way, my boyfriend has started warming to her. He thinks it's cute that she thinks i'm her mummy. He even let her sit on his stomach yesterday, and tried to feed her some peas.




Glad to hear!




> I let her into the lounge room to hang out with us last night. Not that she did much but sleep in her nest. She seems to only flap and walk and play around when i provoke her. SHOULD i be provoking her? I don't want to deprive her of sleep, but i want her to get strong, too.
> 
> 
> 
> She will seek stimulation and exploring and excercise as she grows...
> 
> 
> You may not know this, hut, their Natural History is for them to "Stay Put" on a small ledge or cavity, someplace usually high up...and not to venture out from it at all, for any reason, untill they are ready to fly, or, sometimes, if their Nest has some continuity with a flat and safe area, their arents may encourage them to come out on to that...but that is it.
> 
> 
> This is why Pigeon Babys do not need to be kept 'in' anything to revent them from wandering, but, what they do need, are an identifiable to them of "Nest", and to feel safe in it, and, to be fed 'there' in order to reinforce their comfort and security being in the Nest, and, in addition, they are fine once some two weeks or age or more, for us to take them out of the Nest for little cosial times, Sunshine with us in 'Hand-Nest' or Lap-Nest times and so on...or, for grazing forays with their wild kin, once they are pecking well enough.
> 
> One may keep them in a soft cloth bottomed Box on it's side, say a Box 12 inches square and 6 or 8 inches of head room, set on a dresser or Bookcase or Table...provide realy 'warmth' if need be via a Heating Pad, and, they will take to it and stay put as perfectly for us, as they do in Nature.
> 
> So, if there is someplace she likes to be, or has elected, let her have it and let her choose her liesures and where she sleeps and so on, and let her decide when she feels like being active or feels like excercising...and, if you pick her up from her 'spot', once done with whatever you do, put her back in her spot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, i find lots of scaly kind of dead skin/dead feather bits that look a bit like finely flaked fingernails in her bed. This is normal right? It's just her previous baby bits coming out right? she preens alot.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is normal, and, shows she has been Preening, just as you say...and with all those Feathers growing out, she has lots of Preening to do, too.
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> And some more questions..
> 
> When she was preening, and had her feathers all ruffled, i found a pink bit wit no feathers that tapered into a tip at the base of her tail feathers. She seemed to like to peck at it. Was it the tail or was it something else? You kinda have to physically search for it when she lays her feathers flat against her body.




Yahhhh, as Terry mentioned, what you are seeing is her little Gland which exudes a special Oil which she takes a tiny bit of off and on while Preening, to condition her Feathers.




> And also, her toes don't seem to do all that much. They just kinda hang there, and i can manipulate them like they're dead or soemthing. She can use them, scrunch them up etc, i've seen her do it. But when she walks on flat surfaces etc. They kind of angle upwards, like she isnt walking using the whole toe, only the base of the feet, and the toe just comes along for the ride. is this how her toes should be?



I do not understand what you are describing...so...


But, if she can grip well onto your Finger say if 'perched' on it...and, if she walks well, or manages different surfaces alright, 'Trots' or runs well, I would think all is well...


Somewhere around now, she would likely start flapping/climbing on some things, like if you have her on your lap, and she decides to ascend your shirt...or, similar things, and her Toes all have to be in goor order for that.



Best wishes, 


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Driving around yesterday, i found a park with grazing pigeons! 
It's far safer than the pinecone place, which was next to a main road.

I tried to feed them, but they just flew away...

In a few hours, i'm taking Pecky on her first foray!

Hopefully if i just sit a few metres away with her, she'll go to them..i hope. because i could never get close enough to put her with them.
I guess city pigeons that live in the suburbs in australia are more scared of humans than real city ones.

I took some new photos of Pecky sitting on my boyfriend (Luke)
She's so lovely. It'll be really sad to let her go.


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## TerriB

What a cutie!! You are very observant to notice how she uses her toes. Looking at the photos, her toes look like they are working perfectly well for a pigeon. Unlike the grippy toes of parrots and songbirds, pigeon toes are mainly for supporting their weight while they walk around. Although they can close their toes gently around your finger for balance, they don't really too cling strongly.


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## nikku-chan

She is so sweet isn't she?

that's excellent about the toes then.

I took her to 3 different parks today, trying to socialise her, but to no avail.

I just can't get close enough to the pigeons for her to notice them. They don't understand that i've spread seed down for them, and when i do set her down, she just comes waddling back to me terrified that i'm leaving her. It makes me feel awful. like leaving a crying child on its first day of school or something. By the end of our "excursion", she was petrified, and i don't want her to associate fear with her own kind.

I can't get closer than 3 metres to them. When i put her down next to me, she just sits huddled in a llittle ball. Should i be worried about ants? i saw one working its way between her feathers and towards her skin the other day, and flicked it away. 

I'm going to try directly in the city tomorrow, as pigeons walk so close to you that you could kick them (if you wanted to) in our open malls.

I'll try to find a park or something. I'm just so scared that she'll freak out and flap into city traffic or something.

Poor little baby..another thing is that she seems to associate not only me, but "other" people, with safety. I took my mum with me today, and when i was too far out of site for her to see me, she ran to my mum. Does this mean when i release her, she will go to other people straight away?


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> She is so sweet isn't she?



Yes indeed!


They are charmers!

And in so many ways, too...



Uhhhh, I snipped a bunch of text, but...

Yes, find some feral Flock then who are not so shy, so you can work out the grazing forays for your little one, without the ferals feeling threatened or flying off or refusing you some close proximity. Remember, no standing...sit on the ground even and avert your eyes, "looking" peripherally, and NOT 'thinking' about any of the ferrals or anything else about the situation, other than your youngster and some vague 'positive' appraise of the scene. Keeping your arms and hands still and low.


I have been feeding a casual feral flock almost every day for 22 years here, literally, right out my 12 ft Industrial Roll-Up Door, in the old decayed Parking Lot.

And the ones in the Parks here, granted, they do not know me, so I can not take quite the same libertys, but, these will graze within a foot or two of me, which is plenty good enough for me to introduce and supervise a 'Squeaker'...but, they are used to people being near, in the Park, and while circumspect and cautious, they are fairly comfortable if one presents one's self gently and stays still, where one can feed them, and stay within a few feet.

The feral flock I feed every day in the parking lot, I can basically have my hands among the Seeds and they are fine with it, nervous at first most times, but, after a minute or two, they stop worrying about it, and just 'peck'.

This is necessary too, for in case I need to catch one for treating String Feet or Injurys, so, I have worked with the feral flock somewhat, for them to know it is alright for me and my hands to be literally in their midst. And, when I do catch one, I have a gentle safe way to do it, and they do not hold it against me, and, neither usually does the one I caught when I set him back or turn him loose, after dealing with his String Feet or as may be.




> Poor little baby..another thing is that she seems to associate not only me, but "other" people, with safety. I took my mum with me today, and when i was too far out of site for her to see me, she ran to my mum. Does this mean when i release her, she will go to other people straight away?



Well, For now, she knows very well that you and yours are her adopted Family, she trusts you, and, she is glad about that of course. So she will seek security or comfort from you and yours, just as you describe, if nervous or frightened or seeking company or play companion(s).


But, once she is released, subsequent to her succession of opportunitys for forraging and grazing with the feral kin of course...she will cleve and lean to them, and become one of them in every way.


Possibly, later in Life, were she to become injured or ill, she might be more likely to seek aid from People, where, 'born and raised-feral' Pigeons would be less likely to, although born and raised ferals will seek aid from people when ill or inujured sometimes, so...

Basically, "No", she will get 'wild' and it is very very unlikely she would be any less 'wild' in any way, than the ferals you can not get within three metres of.


The ones I raise are that way...and believe me, they are very much 'cuddle-bugs' and very much "my" Babys...and many of them have slept every night till 40 days old or more, sleeping in my Palm all night as I sleep, and perched on my shoulder by day, or being tucked in my shirt when little...till they decide they are feeling 'grown-up' things, and leave off the old ways on their own, and assume a new and emerging emotional sense of self and of how they want to do things.

I 'Baby Feed' them untill they decide to leave it off, and sometimes if rarely this long, it has passed the 50 day mark!! While of course they peck and eat Seeds on their own, since maybe 14 days old or so, as well.

So, they are about as 'attatched' and 'Bonded' to me, and, me to them, as is possible for things TO be...and I know I feel this deeply.

And, they untie the 'Apron Strings' nice-as-pie, each in their own timetable of maturing, just as they would have with their biological ma and pa, if maybe doing so just a l-i-t-t-l-e 'later' maybe, which is fine, and ends up the same anyway.


And, once they are released, within a very short time anyway, since I see them every day when I feed the 'outside' Birds, they soon get very 'wild', and other than some physical details of their appearance, I can not tell them from the others by behavior, and, they are NOT interested in me any more, though they may pause and look at me a moment if I make the 'call' they knew for 'come here!', is all...or, no way can I get any closer to them, than to the other ferals.

My job is done then, and, they do not feel any need to other than pursue their own interests in the 'wild' modes and sensibilitys.

Now, if one keep them TOO long, and the young sub-adult matures far enough to start having feelings of Romance or reproductive allures, welling, then one does run a risk, that for want of other Love Interests, the young adult will accept one as their 'Mate', and then of course, will be compromised and conflicted about being released.


So, I have been very careful in any occasions of my raising Babys, that I do not keep them over-long, and, that I see to it that they have had the socializations they need, while of pre-flying age, and that I respect the cues and stages of their developements, for their release to see them fit and 'ready' for joining the flock with no 'nerves' or insecuritys about it, once they are ready.


So anyway, theres a bunch of overview, which may help to understanding your situation a little more.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

Although that news is good, about her not flying to people, it also makes me really sad. My time with her is going to be so short, but i must let her go, because it would be cruel to keep her for my own benefit.

I do, however, want to make a nesting box/board/flying area for her to come and go from as she pleases.

Maybe she will bring her mate back, and they will have babies.

If i keep her in this for 2 weeks, i've heard that when i release her she will come back at night for food etc. Then I will know that she's getting food etc, and that she's safe. I'm aware that she might eventually leave to be with the flock, but that will be her choice and i'm okay with that completely. I just want to be sure that she will be alright at first.

Do you know any good websites/photos/ideas/plans for making this type of thing for just a pair of birds?

I'm going into the city today for grazing times, but if this is unsuccessful, there are a bunch of pigeons at my mums house that like to eat the weed seeds in her yard. They are smaller brown pigeons specifically (i think) an australian pigeon. Will it benefit her to see them, even though they're not the larger "city" pigeon variety?

Yesterday when i took her out, i noticed at a certain point that she was limping a bit, but thought maybe she just didn't like the pine needly ground. This morning though, she is still limping. She walks on her right foot as little as possible. She kind of waddles. I have noticed too, that she lifts it up in the air while standing sometimes (however, i noticed this a few days before too, not sure if it was her right foot or not, so it could just be normal?). I have examined her foot/leg THOROUGHLY, and cannot see anything wrong with it, apart from that the "pad" (the bit that connects all her toes..the very middle part of the foot) seemed a little morew puffy than the other, but touching it didn't cause any discomfort. I did notice that when she stands, her LEFT foot (the good one), has its toenails are slightly twisted and pointing kind of away from her, while on her bad foot, they seem to be straight on! This could just be because she is putting more pressure on her good foot, maybe? Another thing, when she's sitting, she sometimes lowers her wing, as though using it as a crutch for her foot, and leans to that side. But i do admit that i have seen her do it on the good side too..not as much though.

Anyway, do you know what it might be? do pigeons sprain their feet/legs sometimes? Should i keep her more confined than usual? Poor thing, i feel like such a bad mum. I guess she did it when she was running to me for safety on her "foray".


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## nikku-chan

now i have noticed, she extends the sore leg out a bit more, while standing straighter on the good leg (keeping it more underneath her).

I just checked on her, let her walk around a bit on my arm, and now the limping is even worse...and she is holding her foot up more.

Also, her nose looks a bit like it is brown/pinkish marbled almost. It's usually brown. It kind of looks a bit burnt. Like when someone gets a massive tan, but then it starts peeling, and theres pink bits and browner bits. But it isn't peeling. It only looks the slightest tiniest bit like it is starting tocrack, maybe.

Should i skip taking her to forrage today with the ferals?

It's just..i don't have much time left before she starts flying...she's about 4 weeks old already.


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## nikku-chan

here are some pics of her legs and poos.


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey Phil,
> 
> Although that news is good, about her not flying to people, it also makes me really sad.




Hi Nikku,



Oh no, you need not feel sad about that, be happy you will gave got to be her 'Aunt-Surrogate Momma', and, that her independance is right, normal and natural...though it include her cleving or defering to her own Species, among whom, and 'attuned' to whom, her survival will depend.





> My time with her is going to be so short, but i must let her go, because it would be cruel to keep her for my own benefit.



Well, keeping her too long, once she IS in fact 'ready' to go, would not benifit her, anyway...at least not in terms if her release being well timed for her actual stage of being 'ready' occuring around the 45 - 50 day mark far as we are concerned, WITH as MUCH indoor Flying as possible prior.



> I do, however, want to make a nesting box/board/flying area for her to come and go from as she pleases.
> 
> Maybe she will bring her mate back, and they will have babies.



That is not likely...even if it is remotely possible...


If she is a 'she', it will be her mate who shows her his prospective Nesting sites, and, their ancillary or continuous territories and amenities, or, shows her the choices he is in a position to provide, fight for, defend and so on.

These 'sites' will tend to be near or arouns actual amenities in their terms, and one will tend to find many other Pigeons close by doing the same things.


If your she is a 'he', then, the respective roles of the respective genders remain the same of course still...




> If i keep her in this for 2 weeks, i've heard that when i release her she will come back at night for food etc.


Not necessarily, and for many reasons.

One reason, is that unless you prepare her to a feral flock as we have been discussing, her release will be 'to' no one and to nothing, and she will either have to try and stay close to you for food - and she likely would not - if you are saying you will 'release' her there where you live where there is no feral flock, or she will perish for want of her own kind to join and learn from and be one of.





> Then I will know that she's getting food etc, and that she's safe. I'm aware that she might eventually leave to be with the flock, but that will be her choice and i'm okay with that completely. I just want to be sure that she will be alright at first.


No, not 'eventually', it needs to be what her "release" IS...her "release" needs TO be "to" a feral flock which she has been allowed to already get to know and be with many times...that flock. 



You are not grasping the situation - she needs to be socialized to "wild" feral Pigeons by repeated and actual experience, a feral flock "now", before she can fly, since that is the only way you can do it...you as you, can not supervise her being led to a feral flock for her to graze and forage with after she is flying, like her biological parents would have, your only option is to do it now, before she can fly away from you.

And, she very possibly will NOT or would NOT do this on her own if released arbitrarily...even if she located a feral flock on her own, if she has not already spent time with them to learn the modes and get over her nerves, she will likely not be able to join them nor to manage the assertiveness she will need to eat with them when THEY fly to where food is known to be.

It is too risky anyway...




> Do you know any good websites/photos/ideas/plans for making this type of thing for just a pair of birds?



See above...


You have no amenities to offer, you have a Cat and so on, she or he will have no reason to bring a mate for Nest Making in your home, nr would the mate agree to it, and, besides, it will be a year, two years even, before she or he is likely to even get a mate, once released. And if he or she did, where could theybe, in the Bathroom? or?

If you have a flock indoors, who daily fly and forrage, males among 'them' would bring prospective mates, and, the ates would see all the other Pigeons and so on and cool spots to make Nests, and that does work.

One Bird, hand raised, is a whole different matter.


This is the least of your concerns anyway.


If he or she DID come 'back' in a year or two or three, with-a-mate, just deal with that "then"..!

Lol...

You have enough to deal with now.



> I'm going into the city today for grazing times, but if this is unsuccessful, there are a bunch of pigeons at my mums house that like to eat the weed seeds in her yard. They are smaller brown pigeons specifically (i think) an australian pigeon. Will it benefit her to see them, even though they're not the larger "city" pigeon variety?



It would be better than nothing, for sure...and, probably they would accept her to let her graze among them...


So, if you can do it with those Pigeons, or Doves ore likely, by all means do!


And, also, you will STILL need to do it WITH THE ACTUAL FERAL FLOCK SHE WILL BE RELEASED TO.


She needs two things in this regard -

To be socialized "to" her own Species of Pigeon kind, for her to learn the "modes" of awareness and attention and so on it takes TO "be" with them...and, then, to be released "TO" the exact very same "flock" of them, which she has been allowed to graze with for several times in a row, five or SIX times one may hope, prior to release, because then she is being released "to" a definite actual group of Pigeons she has already been with five or six times, in the same place, each time, whom she is accepted by and who she "knows".


This is important!!!!





> Yesterday when i took her out, i noticed at a certain point that she was limping a bit, but thought maybe she just didn't like the pine needly ground. This morning though, she is still limping. She walks on her right foot as little as possible. She kind of waddles. I have noticed too, that she lifts it up in the air while standing sometimes (however, i noticed this a few days before too, not sure if it was her right foot or not, so it could just be normal?). I have examined her foot/leg THOROUGHLY, and cannot see anything wrong with it, apart from that the "pad" (the bit that connects all her toes..the very middle part of the foot) seemed a little morew puffy than the other, but touching it didn't cause any discomfort. I did notice that when she stands, her LEFT foot (the good one), has its toenails are slightly twisted and pointing kind of away from her, while on her bad foot, they seem to be straight on! This could just be because she is putting more pressure on her good foot, maybe? Another thing, when she's sitting, she sometimes lowers her wing, as though using it as a crutch for her foot, and leans to that side. But i do admit that i have seen her do it on the good side too..not as much though.




At that age, they sometimes strain a Leg a little and will favor a Leg for a few days, usually from a hard landing or small fall or twist...and, they do routinely 'lay' on their sides or on a Wing or on other casual poses of recline...




> Anyway, do you know what it might be? do pigeons sprain their feet/legs sometimes? Should i keep her more confined than usual? Poor thing, i feel like such a bad mum. I guess she did it when she was running to me for safety on her "foray".



Her Leg will be fine tomorrow or in a couple days...and, you need to find a reliable flock of her kind of Pigeons, where you can feed them at the same place each time, to bring her to for her forays.


Sorry this is not easy to do in your area! I know that is a problem so far and you are trying!


Here, it is not that way...stable feral flocks graze every day in the same places now which they were twenty years ago or more.


They are there every day, at these various Parks, Parking Lots, and so on...easy to find, and reliably 'there'.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> now i have noticed, she extends the sore leg out a bit more, while standing straighter on the good leg (keeping it more underneath her).
> 
> I just checked on her, let her walk around a bit on my arm, and now the limping is even worse...and she is holding her foot up more.
> 
> Also, her nose looks a bit like it is brown/pinkish marbled almost. It's usually brown. It kind of looks a bit burnt. Like when someone gets a massive tan, but then it starts peeling, and theres pink bits and browner bits. But it isn't peeling. It only looks the slightest tiniest bit like it is starting tocrack, maybe.
> 
> Should i skip taking her to forrage today with the ferals?
> 
> It's just..i don't have much time left before she starts flying...she's about 4 weeks old already.



You need to decide what you really intend or want here with this.


If you really do not want this Pigeon to ever go, okay.


If you want her to be fit for a real and well prepared 'release', so she is prepared and ready, please start over, and re-read what I have been explaining all along.


I do not think you realy grasp it, or grasp what the difference is for her.


If you want to do things for her sake, for the quality of her future, then, please, re-read all this carefully, from the beginning, and see if you can get a handle on it..!


Best wishes!

P.S. -

I don't care if she has to have both legs AND her Neck in a Cast, she needs to be with a feral flock to learn their modes and nuances and to be able to be "attuned" to them.

To do this she needs several occasions at least of being among them, to get over her initial 'nerves'.

The same flock, each time, and then it is "to" them that she would be released by you bringing her TO them in your hands and setting her on the ground same as all the prior times, only THIS time, she can fly now, and she flys a little right off, or not, but once they all fly off, she flys off WITH THEM then for the night, because she IS "with" them, and she roosts with them for the night in places THEY know are "safe", and come morning, or dawn, she flys with them to where-ever they go to drink or graze...



Phil
l v


----------



## TAWhatley

Nikku, you really do need to be "listening" to Phil here. I think he is probably the most experienced person on the Pigeon-Talk board when it comes to releasing a single pigeon into a feral flock. I do lots of releases but do them as mini-flocks joining the main flock .. that's a whole lot different than one bird going out on it's own.

JMO ..

Terry


----------



## nikku-chan

I do grasp what you are saying..It seems that you don't actually understand all that i am saying.

I DO have a cat, but she only lives INSIDE, therefore she could never be a problem to Pecky outside.
There IS a feral flock that LIVES in my backyard, in the date palm, as i have said before.

The only problem is, they seem to be more afraid than city pigeons would be, and therefore i cannot get close enough to let her peck amongst them.
They do walk around my yard, i just cannot get close enough.

I was not suggesting that i keep her, much less that i keep her inside in the bathroom like you seemed to think i wwas saying.

I was meaning, i would socialise her with the ferals in a park in the city until she starts flying.

I was suggesting that i then keep her outside in a large flight cage with a pigeon house and a board like a loft but with it locked, once she has started flying, so that she can get used to the pigeons who walk around my backyard, but keep her inside during most of the day to build flying strength, and then after a few weeks, at 45-50 days, opening the door of that cage when the pigeons are in my yard so that she can come back to something she knows if she needs to for food/whatever, but will join the flock living in my yard.

Pigeons in my city are hated, and kicked, and so on, and some of them are so thin. I REALLY don't want to release her right in the middle of the city. Maybe in your city, it is different.

So, my reasoning was, if she got used to the pigeons in my yard by being ouot there with them, as well as her previous interactions with other ferals, maybe she would be over her nerves and join my backyard flock.

I have LISTENED to every word you have said, i do grasp what you are saying. Sorry if i have seemed "daft" to you, but to you it may seem simple whether something would work or not, and to me it does not because i don't know pigeons like you. Hence why i have asked your advice.

I was just trying to go through every possible alternative for her because i REALLY DO NOT want to release her in the city centre. I have LISTENED, and i was trying to use your advice as well as other information, to concoct an alternative, to present to you, to see if it was a viable idea.

By the way, her leg seems worse and she's holding it up/hobbling alot more. I WILL take her out tomorrow, as you have said to do. The only reason i didn't today was because I was worried she'd hurt it worse by running to me. It wasnt because i'm trying to sabotage her chances of leaving, as you have implied. I'm not that selfish.


----------



## TAWhatley

Nikku,

You are in no way "daft" or anywhere close to it. I'm sorry if you felt we were treating you that way. In reading this last post of yours, it is obvious to me that you have thought this all out very well and only want to do what is best for the young pigeon, and bless you for that!

The leg seeming to be worse is troubling. Is there a way you could post us some current pictures of the leg and how the bird is standing?

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

The leg getting worse is a bad sign. We probably need to run him through a course of Baytril for two weeks.

Pidgey


----------



## nikku-chan

Oh no..i took her out to graze with the ferals, and found that she had done a poo with blood in it, and a cream coloured lumpy thing that looks like a tumor. it looks almost like it has blood vessels, it is quite big. She did a second poo, that had blood in it too. Also, when she was with the ferals she was shaking really badly, but i assume that was just nerves because she isn't anymore. 

The last few days she has seemed a bit subdued compared to normal, but she is still testing her wings and walking around..but when she sleeps she fluffs up more than usual.

What should i do? vet? i'll post a pic in a sec.


----------



## nikku-chan

*Please help! blood in poo..and tumor looking lump.*

Someone please help me..
My baby from the thread, "17 day old baby feral dove", is sick.
I took her out for the first time to graze with other ferals, and she did a poo with blood in it, and a tumor-looking mass, that is quite hard, like tissue, and over a cm long. She has done anothe rpoo which also has blood, but no mass.

she also has had a sore leg for 2 days, which appears to be getting worse. She is about a month old now. 

Are these related? should i take her to the emergency vet or wait until tomorrow? Does anyone know what is wrong?


----------



## nikku-chan

The lump is quite hard. Like a mass of tissue.


----------



## TAWhatley

The regular poops look good .. that yellow thing does NOT look good. If you have a vet that could look at/test the growth and the overall health of the bird, that would be wonderful.

Terry


----------



## nikku-chan

It isnt yellow so much..more creamy off-white..the camera makes it look more yellow.

Can i take her to the vet tomorrow, or should i take her to the emergency vet tonight?

If she stops pooing blood tonight..do you think maybe it was just the stress of being with other pigeons for the first time?

Should i preserve the growth in water or something and fridgerate it for the vet tomorrow?

poor little thing.


----------



## nikku-chan

She has done one more poo, and it, too, has blood in it. Not as red as the last blood poo. It is like a normal poo, with a few stringy blood parts. It has kind of brownish/blackish/reddish colourr. Do you think maybe there was a tumor inside her, which has detached and come out, (hence being accompaqnied by red blood), and now it's just the left over blood coming out (hence present brownish colour).

She still seems chirpy enough. she still flaps her wings and walks around..
She is still eating and drinking. I'm going to take her to the vet first thing tomorrow.


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hi Nikku,
> 
> 
> I am sorry, my last parting mention was meant to read as a sort of friendly thing, and I did not have any 'emoticons' for it.
> 
> Like, "I don't care if you have to walk over a bed of coals!!!" (BIG SMILEY FACE HERE) just as a way of trying to emphacise in a friendly way...it was not meant to be read as 'heavy'...just meant to try and let you know, that even if she has a small 'limp' to still do your best to find and or cultivate a reliable feral grazing flock to set her with.
> 
> 
> Since you were proposing to not try and find any grazing contexts for her, because she seemed to have a limp....I did not want to see you lose another day because of it.
> 
> 
> But it was meant to be friendly, so I am sorry, this is not the same medium as talking is!
> 
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> 
> Sorry you read it as something negative.
> 
> 
> I do not think you are 'daft'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isnt yellow so much..more creamy off-white..the camera makes it look more yellow.
> 
> Can i take her to the vet tomorrow, or should i take her to the emergency vet tonight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, either way...probably it would be good if someone with some Avian or at least 'small animal' medical experience could examine and evaluate her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she stops pooing blood tonight..do you think maybe it was just the stress of being with other pigeons for the first time?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much 'blood' has there been?
> 
> 
> And, what color was it?
> 
> 
> 
> This odd off-white blood-flecked thing has nothing to do with her having been nervous.
> 
> 
> It is either a Tumur from her Digestive System, which was released and passed through her Intestines, or, is maybe a Cyst, or, is maybe some adhering mass of spent Leucocytes from an infection in her Intestines, or, is something odd she ate, or some odd material she had eaten over time, which accumulated in her Crop, or Stomach, and, is now expelled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should i preserve the growth in water or something and fridgerate it for the vet tomorrow?
> 
> poor little thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, definitely, just gently wrap the object in thing plastic film like Sandwhich Wrap or something, so it is protected from drying out, and keep it refrigerated till you can bring it to the Vet for him to evaluate.
> 
> Do not put it in Water...just wrap it up in Sandwhich Wrap so it is snug.
> 
> It might just be some foreign matter which had been gathered in her Crop or Stomach, and, which now has passed on through...
> 
> 
> It might be something from the Dog Bisket phase of her diet...some cuulative material the Biskets had contained.
> 
> 
> No harm if you were to gently break it in half, to see what the inside is like...
> 
> 
> If you want to, do that, ( still save it wrapped in the refrigerator, but do that ) and let us know what you see.
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v
Click to expand...


----------



## nikku-chan

Yeah, i'm sorry, the internet is a hard place to understand people sometimes.

I broke it open...it seems to just be whitish coloured inside..

no blood vessels or anything. kind of compacted. it is too hard to determine whether or not it is a tumor from the inside of it..it's just whitish..

Not much blood. maybe a rice grain for the poos w/blood in them, sometimes less.

She just did a few more poos last time i checked..one had a tiny bit of red blood in it. The others didn't have any.

She doesn't seem AS ravenous as she usually is for her food.

I HOPE it was from the dog food.
I guess it's good i'm taking her to the vet, because they can check her leg too.

By the way, the pigeons in the city came within 30 cm of me, so it was really easy to be with pecky with them around. She seemed really scared, shook uncontrollably, and didn't peck "with" them, but spent her time grooming next to them, like she didn't know how to act around them and was embarrassed, so tried to immerse herself in grooming so as not to look silly. It was cute. They seemed to be quite aware of her personal space, as though they knew i was her protection, and they didn't want to anger me. One of them pecked some seed a little too close to her, and seemed to penetrate her personal space, and Pecky tried to give it a warning peck. hehe.

There were some sea gulls too, and one of them seemed very interested in Pecky, like it wanted to bite her, but everytime it got "that" look, like it was about to, i scared it off. 

So, if the vet puts her on baytril, will this affect her at all? Will she still be alright to visit the ferals tomorrow? (just checking)

Also, is there anything i should make sure of, that the vet does, in regards to checking her out? Should i ask them to test the tumor thing? Should i ask them to worm her? Should i ask them specifically to put her on baytril?


if they don't know what it is, should i still ask to put her on baytril, even if they say it isn't necessary?


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Yeah, i'm sorry, the internet is a hard place to understand people sometimes.



It was my fault, not yours.


And, I am more likely to accidently come across unfriendly, than most...too...but it is not so, just an accident of trying to be clear or direct or to keep something on track.


Lol...part of my charm, especially when writing on a tired brain.


Glad we are okay again...





> I broke it open...it seems to just be whitish coloured inside..



Hmmmmm...and such blood as there was, was only on the 'outside' then..?





> Not much blood. maybe a rice grain for the poos w/blood in them, sometimes less.
> 
> She just did a few more poos last time i checked..one had a tiny bit of red blood in it. The others didn't have any.
> 
> She doesn't seem AS ravenous as she usually is for her food.
> 
> I HOPE it was from the dog food.
> I guess it's good i'm taking her to the vet, because they can check her leg too.



Sorry I do not have more experienve to guide an evaluation of what this mass or object is.


I can say I have seen some odd things get pooped 'out', which as far as I could tell, were aggregates or accumulations of foreign matter of some kind.


And this is a LARGE object or mass for someone of her size to have expelled.

A Vet who has a long experience with Birds or at least 'Small Animals' should have some ideas what it is, and any Vet would have some means to investigate the item itself, to determine it's composition, and import.



> By the way, the pigeons in the city came within 30 cm of me, so it was really easy to be with pecky with them around.



Oh good!!!




> She seemed really scared, shook uncontrollably, and didn't peck "with" them, but spent her time grooming next to them, like she didn't know how to act around them and was embarrassed, so tried to immerse herself in grooming so as not to look silly.




Yes, this is exactly what they do!


They are 'nervous', they will preen under their Wing or other, they shake, tremble, feel self conscious...and they do not know what ( else) to do.


This will be less so next time, and less the time after that, and will gradually be replaced with confidence and an active interest to be pecking with them.


It takes several sessions for them to get to where they need to be...five, six, seven sessions even...sometimes for them to get comfortable and confident.


This is the same 'ice' they would have to break if released to be on their own, meeting all this cold, at 45 days old or so, and, this is some of why such releases may tend to perish - the young flying released Pigeon, does not break-the-ice, hangs back, does not eat or get to eat, or what food there is is eaten by the others, and the 'nervous' one hangs back, and after a week or so, if not sooner, is in real trouble, and after ten days is definitely starving, weak or getting ill from a diminished immune system...or already perished.


No doubt some overcome the shyness or lack of confidence...but, when they get to acquire the necessary confidence and esperience ( and other things they get this way also, ) before flying, they will still have it later, they will be 'ready', when we do release them.

And that is the whole matter with this.







> It was cute. They seemed to be quite aware of her personal space, as though they knew i was her protection, and they didn't want to anger me. One of them pecked some seed a little too close to her, and seemed to penetrate her personal space, and Pecky tried to give it a warning peck. hehe.



Very good...




> There were some sea gulls too, and one of them seemed very interested in Pecky, like it wanted to bite her, but everytime it got "that" look, like it was about to, i scared it off.
> 
> So, if the vet puts her on baytril, will this affect her at all? Will she still be alright to visit the ferals tomorrow? (just checking)




If she is interested in pecking and eating, she may as well get to go and be with them.

If she is sick or getting sicker and is not feeling good, not interested to eat or peck, then of course let her stay home for the time being...since she would not be in a very good 'learning mode' for the forays to be benificial.



> Also, is there anything i should make sure of, that the vet does, in regards to checking her out? Should i ask them to test the tumor thing? Should i ask them to worm her? Should i ask them specifically to put her on baytril?



I will have to let Pidgey regard any 'Baytril' questions.


I myself do not know that this mass is from her Body, or if it is an accumulation of foreign matter she passed.


The Vet should be asked to evaluate the composition of the mass or object, with a view that he determine if it is foreign matter, or, if it is a Cyst, Tumor, or wad of unusually accumulated Leucocytes, or as may be.


This would be easy for the Vet to do and would only take a few seconds with a visual then Microscopic investigation.




> if they don't know what it is, should i still ask to put her on baytril, even if they say it isn't necessary?



The choice of a Medication, when possible, should be made on definite diagnosis, or, on a diagnosis which earnestly suspects an kind of infection or issue which that Medication is known to treat or remediate.


Baytril is a very good and versatile Drug, an Antibiotic, which addresses a wide range of infections.


If she does not have an infection, then the Baytril will not benifit her, and it may interfere with her Bone developement, so, if it is the best drug for an infection she does have, "yes", it should be used...but if not, then, we would all tend to agree, on 'not'.


But I would prefer that Pidgey regard this sidelight.


Let us know of course if there are more poops which are like that one...or anything else you see poop-wise or any which wise.

This mass might be some stuff from when her parents were trying to make-do with some iffy foods...that accumulated in her stomach, which took this long to wind on through.

It might be something else her body made...so, the Vet needs to evaluate it closely to determine what sort of thing it is.

It might be some old stale Chewing Gum or a dried scrap of Putty, she somehow ate before you got her.

...did it have any smell when you broke it in half?

Till next...

Good luck!


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

I would get her to a vet and on antibiotics ASAP.

Keep the lump to show the vet, but can you cut it through the middle and photograph the inside?

I can't help thinking better out than in in this case. It has to make the diagnosis easier.

If the dove was older I would suspect it was a badly developed egg, one of my hens passed a few of those before becoming barren. They were soft and waxy.

I am also wondering whether the dove developed around something in the egg.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

It looks like inflammatory debris (the equivalent of pus in us--birds make more solid-looking stuff like scrambled egg) and I expect it must have come from the cloaca or oviduct. You could be looking at canker of some kind. She needs on Metronidazole (Ronidazole, Secnidazole, Carnidazole, one of 'em) for awhile just to either clear it or the possibility. Canker can be caused by Trichomonads, usually, but there are a few other bugs that can do it, too.

You'd also want to get her on a wide-spectrum antibiotic like Baytril and a Coccidiostat like Amprolium or Clazuril. Is there any chance that this plug came from the navel area instead of the actual vent?

Pidgey


----------



## nikku-chan

Navel area?
as in..belly button?
If so, no it couldn't have, i am very familiar with Pecky's little body and i would have noticed if something that big was on her belly button..

I didnt actually see her do the poo, but i found it a few seconds later. It was definitely a poo though, as it was mixed with normal looking poo.

She isn't seeming to want to eat. She pecks from my hand but doesnt eat anything.

I'm taking her to a bird vet today...

I broke it open and its just whitish colored..all one colour. Looks Kind of like compressed fetta cheese, but is harder in texture.

If the vet can't reach any kind of conclusion, and says just to "see how she goes", what should i demand?


----------



## Pidgey

Flagyl (Metronidazole), for one thing. Let's go 50 mg/kg, PO, BID. Also, ask for Baytril (Enrofloxacin), 15 mg/kg, PO, BID.

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

last time I had a pigeon with blood in her stool she died two days later , it was sad but all I could do was treat her when i saw it and apparently it was to late  good luck with your bird thou hope the outcome is better then mine ..


----------



## Pidgey

Well, there's not that much blood there, thankfully.

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

hopefully there will be a good outcome , with my bird she was acting perfectly normal til I saw the blood and by then it was to late ,it was a total shock how fast she went down hill from there I was completely bummed


----------



## nikku-chan

I took her to like one of the only avian vets in my city.
He was heaps oldschool.

He said it was undigested seed, he thought, and i asked about baytril etc and he said he didnt think it was necessary and to be more worried about the leg, and gave her a steroid injection for it..he said it didnt seem broken or anything, and was probably the nerve of her leg and to make her rest the leg for the next few days because she might overuse it and not realise it, as steroids take away the pain.

He also gave her vitamins.

He said to mix grit with her seed, because maybe it wasn't enough grit to break up the seed in her digestive system. He also said to feed her some pigeon poo (from another pigeon), so she could get the good bacteria from it, which sounds a bit strange to me. Woudlnt she be more likely to get bad bacteria from feral pigeon poo?

He also said maybe there was a reason she was kicked out of the nest, and if she cant use her leg she will have to be put down cos pigeons cant survive with only use of one leg. He was pretty horrible. Completely old, and arrogant, and treated me like a stupid child who knew nothing. 

I asked if it could be paratyphoid or canker or an internal infection, and he said "it COULD be. but i don't think so". He looked at her poos and the thing under the microscope for 3 minutes and charged me $60 just for those "tests", and said it seemed to have normal levels of bacteria and couldnt see any worms.

Her poos were fine at the vets, but now that we've come home, she did a poo that was really watery, wit little bits of dark green/grey and watery white urates and then kind of in a puddle of water that is sort of yellow.

I don't know what to do now..

I ended up being charged $118.


----------



## nikku-chan

No, no smell. i took her to the vet today,,who was pretty useless.
I posted about it in the other thread.


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Navel area?
> as in..belly button?
> If so, no it couldn't have, i am very familiar with Pecky's little body and i would have noticed if something that big was on her belly button..
> 
> I didnt actually see her do the poo, but i found it a few seconds later. It was definitely a poo though, as it was mixed with normal looking poo.
> 
> She isn't seeming to want to eat. She pecks from my hand but doesnt eat anything.
> 
> I'm taking her to a bird vet today...
> 
> I broke it open and its just whitish colored..all one colour. Looks Kind of like compressed fetta cheese, but is harder in texture.
> 
> If the vet can't reach any kind of conclusion, and says just to "see how she goes", what should i demand?



Hi Nikku, 



You keep asking this last part as if it had not been addressed in detail twice at least already.


Did you just decide not to bother reading your original thread any more?



Too - If this suspicious 'poo' is something you found out of doors, when you had her to be with the ferals, and you did not see her produce it, and there are two, possibly three poops all tolled in the image, each very possibly having come from a different Bird, or at least each looking to me as if they came from different Birds, how are you even sure this was from her? 


I will cut and paste from your abandonded thread, the reply you are again asking for in this thread.

Best wishes, 


Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I'm sorry, that was pretty bad. Believe me, that "stuff" is inflammatory debris--it's literally spent leukocytes (white blood cells). We've seen the stuff plenty of times and it had to come from the cloaca this time. That's why we need to get the bird on Flagyl.

Where, basically, are you? In case we've got a member near you with supplies.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

(Re-posted from roughly 20 hours ago in your other thread )





> It isnt yellow so much..more creamy off-white..the camera makes it look more yellow.
> 
> Can i take her to the vet tomorrow, or should i take her to the emergency vet tonight?



Well, either way...probably it would be good if someone with some Avian or at least 'small animal' medical experience could examine and evaluate her.




> If she stops pooing blood tonight..do you think maybe it was just the stress of being with other pigeons for the first time?


How much 'blood' has there been?


And, what color was it?



This odd off-white blood-flecked thing has nothing to do with her having been nervous.


It is either a Tumur from her Digestive System, which was released and passed through her Intestines, or, is maybe a Cyst, or, is maybe some adhering mass of spent Leucocytes from an infection in her Intestines, or, is something odd she ate, or some odd material she had eaten over time, which accumulated in her Crop, or Stomach, and, is now expelled.




> Should i preserve the growth in water or something and fridgerate it for the vet tomorrow?
> 
> poor little thing.



Yes, definitely, just gently wrap the object in thing plastic film like Sandwhich Wrap or something, so it is protected from drying out, and keep it refrigerated till you can bring it to the Vet for him to evaluate.

Do not put it in Water...just wrap it up in Sandwhich Wrap so it is snug.

It might just be some foreign matter which had been gathered in her Crop or Stomach, and, which now has passed on through...


It might be something from the Dog Bisket phase of her diet...some cuulative material the Biskets had contained.


No harm if you were to gently break it in half, to see what the inside is like...


If you want to, do that, ( still save it wrapped in the refrigerator, but do that ) and let us know what you see.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison

(Reposted from about 18 hours ago from your other thread ) 





> I broke it open...it seems to just be whitish coloured inside..



Hmmmmm...and such blood as there was, was only on the 'outside' then..?





> Not much blood. maybe a rice grain for the poos w/blood in them, sometimes less.
> 
> She just did a few more poos last time i checked..one had a tiny bit of red blood in it. The others didn't have any.
> 
> She doesn't seem AS ravenous as she usually is for her food.
> 
> I HOPE it was from the dog food.
> I guess it's good i'm taking her to the vet, because they can check her leg too.



Sorry I do not have more experienve to guide an evaluation of what this mass or object is.


I can say I have seen some odd things get pooped 'out', which as far as I could tell, were aggregates or accumulations of foreign matter of some kind.


And this is a LARGE object or mass for someone of her size to have expelled.

A Vet who has a long experience with Birds or at least 'Small Animals' should have some ideas what it is, and any Vet would have some means to investigate the item itself, to determine it's composition, and import.



> By the way, the pigeons in the city came within 30 cm of me, so it was really easy to be with pecky with them around.



Oh good!!!




> She seemed really scared, shook uncontrollably, and didn't peck "with" them, but spent her time grooming next to them, like she didn't know how to act around them and was embarrassed, so tried to immerse herself in grooming so as not to look silly.




Yes, this is exactly what they do!


They are 'nervous', they will preen under their Wing or other, they shake, tremble, feel self conscious...and they do not know what ( else) to do.


This will be less so next time, and less the time after that, and will gradually be replaced with confidence and an active interest to be pecking with them.


It takes several sessions for them to get to where they need to be...five, six, seven sessions even...sometimes for them to get comfortable and confident.


This is the same 'ice' they would have to break if released to be on their own, meeting all this cold, at 45 days old or so, and, this is some of why such releases may tend to perish - the young flying released Pigeon, does not break-the-ice, hangs back, does not eat or get to eat, or what food there is is eaten by the others, and the 'nervous' one hangs back, and after a week or so, if not sooner, is in real trouble, and after ten days is definitely starving, weak or getting ill from a diminished immune system...or already perished.


No doubt some overcome the shyness or lack of confidence...but, when they get to acquire the necessary confidence and esperience ( and other things they get this way also, ) before flying, they will still have it later, they will be 'ready', when we do release them.

And that is the whole matter with this.







> It was cute. They seemed to be quite aware of her personal space, as though they knew i was her protection, and they didn't want to anger me. One of them pecked some seed a little too close to her, and seemed to penetrate her personal space, and Pecky tried to give it a warning peck. hehe.



Very good...




> There were some sea gulls too, and one of them seemed very interested in Pecky, like it wanted to bite her, but everytime it got "that" look, like it was about to, i scared it off.
> 
> So, if the vet puts her on baytril, will this affect her at all? Will she still be alright to visit the ferals tomorrow? (just checking)




If she is interested in pecking and eating, she may as well get to go and be with them.

If she is sick or getting sicker and is not feeling good, not interested to eat or peck, then of course let her stay home for the time being...since she would not be in a very good 'learning mode' for the forays to be benificial.



> Also, is there anything i should make sure of, that the vet does, in regards to checking her out? Should i ask them to test the tumor thing? Should i ask them to worm her? Should i ask them specifically to put her on baytril?



I will have to let Pidgey regard any 'Baytril' questions.


I myself do not know that this mass is from her Body, or if it is an accumulation of foreign matter she passed.


The Vet should be asked to evaluate the composition of the mass or object, with a view that he determine if it is foreign matter, or, if it is a Cyst, Tumor, or wad of unusually accumulated Leucocytes, or as may be.


This would be easy for the Vet to do and would only take a few seconds with a visual then Microscopic investigation.




> if they don't know what it is, should i still ask to put her on baytril, even if they say it isn't necessary?



The choice of a Medication, when possible, should be made on definite diagnosis, or, on a diagnosis which earnestly suspects an kind of infection or issue which that Medication is known to treat or remediate.


Baytril is a very good and versatile Drug, an Antibiotic, which addresses a wide range of infections.


If she does not have an infection, then the Baytril will not benifit her, and it may interfere with her Bone developement, so, if it is the best drug for an infection she does have, "yes", it should be used...but if not, then, we would all tend to agree, on 'not'.


But I would prefer that Pidgey regard this sidelight.


Let us know of course if there are more poops which are like that one...or anything else you see poop-wise or any which wise.

This mass might be some stuff from when her parents were trying to make-do with some iffy foods...that accumulated in her stomach, which took this long to wind on through.

It might be something else her body made...so, the Vet needs to evaluate it closely to determine what sort of thing it is.

It might be some old stale Chewing Gum or a dried scrap of Putty, she somehow ate before you got her.

...did it have any smell when you broke it in half?

Till next...

Good luck!


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## nikku-chan

No, no smell. i took her to the vet today,,who was pretty useless.
I posted about it in the other thread.


----------



## nikku-chan

pdpbison said:


> Hi Nikku,
> 
> 
> 
> You keep asking this last part as if it had not been addressed in detail twice at least already.
> 
> 
> Did you just decide not to bother reading your original thread any more?
> 
> 
> 
> Too - If this suspicious 'poo' is something you found out of doors, when you had her to be with the ferals, and you did not see her produce it, and there are two, possibly three poops all tolled in the image, each very possibly having come from a different Bird, or at least each looking to me as if they came from different Birds, how are you even sure this was from her?
> 
> 
> I will cut and paste from your abandonded thread, the reply you are again asking for in this thread.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v


No Phil, i did read your post, but you told me to ask pidgey about the baytril etc, hence i posted here. Also because the title of other thread doesnt really apply to her current problems, i thought i should post in this new thread, instead.

I am sure it was from her because the object was bloody, then when she was on the grass, she did another poo (that i saw her do) thatr was also bloody, and then subsequent poos were also bloody.


----------



## nikku-chan

Pidgy, i live in Adelaide, South Australia..

So you think it's a fungal infection/canker or something?

My mum thought it was swollen seed too...She said that it was just what it looked like.
It was quite hard, and broke, almost crumbled into well formed bits.
I really don't know what to do now..

I specifrically asked if it was a mass of white blood cells, and he looked at it under the microscope and said it was too hard to break up all that much to put on the slide, but that it seemed to have a normal amount of bacteria.

I really can't afford to spend any more money on vets..


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> I took her to like one of the only avian vets in my city.
> He was heaps oldschool.
> 
> He said it was undigested seed, he thought, and i asked about baytril etc and he said he didnt think it was necessary and to be more worried about the leg, and gave her a steroid injection for it..he said it didnt seem broken or anything, and was probably the nerve of her leg and to make her rest the leg for the next few days because she might overuse it and not realise it, as steroids take away the pain.




Hi nikku,



Okay...well, he was not a very friendly Vet anyway. And possibly not an inspired 'detective'.


If this IS 'undigested Seeds', I do not see how they would come out in so cohesive a form.


But then too, we do not even know for sure, that this 'thing' came from her, since it's attribution to her is only by what you take to be an inference of her having been in that area. Or that it has flecks of Blood, and soe of her subseuent poops showed 'blood' in sone as yet undescribed way.


So, all of this is a little frought with possible complcation.




> He also gave her vitamins.
> 
> He said to mix grit with her seed, because maybe it wasn't enough grit to break up the seed in her digestive system. He also said to feed her some pigeon poo (from another pigeon), so she could get the good bacteria from it, which sounds a bit strange to me. Woudlnt she be more likely to get bad bacteria from feral pigeon poo?



All of this is reasonable, but, they will 'digest' and process their Seeds just fine with having never had any Grit.

Grit is desireable for them, they eventually seek it out, but whether she got some grit from her parents feeding her, or not, she can get along just fine with none, untill such time as she is out grazing to find it on her own, so, for now, 'grit' is not an issue of any import.


I have raised endless Babys who never had any grit till they were fledged or even some while there after, and they all made 'perfect' poos.
Not that I meant to with-hold it, just that I forgot, or had run out, and sometimes it takes a while to get more in.

Getting good 'bacteria' from the poops of healthy adult others, is entirely safe and reasonable.

The thing is, to elect poops which look good and are well formed and whose appearance suggest they came fron a 'Healthy' System.





> He also said maybe there was a reason she was kicked out of the nest, and if she cant use her leg she will have to be put down cos pigeons cant survive with only use of one leg. He was pretty horrible. Completely old, and arrogant, and treated me like a stupid child who knew nothing.



He is correct in noting that sick Babys will tend to be 'pushed out of the Nest'...if less correct to suggest that Babys with mild Leg or other injurys, would be.


Pigeon Parents show little to no tendency to reject Babys who are injured, even if injured severely, so long as the Babys is interested to be fed.


Where, even signs of illness too subtle for us to notice, can be 'reason' for them to reject, or stop feeding, a Baby who 'they' feel is ill, and who inferentially then, is not going to live.


He seems to have been a little overblown on the 'Leg' issue, especially since the Leg in question is not diagnosed or evaluated as for 'why' it is showing some loss of function or weakness.


Leg weakness can proceed from compromised of inflamed Kidneys, which inflamation can be associated with a disease process or illness.


However, youg Pigeons strain a Leg sometimes quite easily, and it is not uncommon for them to do.


Sorry he was rude and arrogant...


I have encountered that also.


But in my experience, the most offensive and aggressively unstable or emotionally afflicted of these offensive practioners, have bene people-doctors.




> I asked if it could be paratyphoid or canker or an internal infection, and he said "it COULD be. but i don't think so". He looked at her poos and the thing under the microscope for 3 minutes and charged me $60 just for those "tests", and said it seemed to have normal levels of bacteria and couldnt see any worms.
> 
> Her poos were fine at the vets, but now that we've come home, she did a poo that was really watery, wit little bits of dark green/grey and watery white urates and then kind of in a puddle of water that is sort of yellow.
> 
> I don't know what to do now..
> 
> I ended up being charged $118.



Your final mention here, about the 'yellow'...



My own acceptance is that any time I see 'yellow' urates, or urates which look like thinned out watercolor Paint, I accept that the Pigeon has either 'Canker', or soe other form of Trichomonal illness.


The medications for treating this are usually 'Metronidaole', 'Ronidaole', or some other 'zole'.


The Vet's pronouncement of the 'odd thing' being 'Undigested Seeds' is very curious, since, under a Microscope, 'undigested Seeds' would be a very easy thing to determine. 

As would debris from an inflamitory process, be very easy to distinguish...so...


Yet, for a Pigeon to poop-out a self-adhering well formed an undiluted, firm 'slug' of unigested Seeds, which HAD been made into a 'paste' by the Bird's Gizzard, seems incredible to me...seems very very unlikely, to me anyway...


Unless, "maybe"...juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe, those 'Seeds' were 'Wheat'.



Wheat, when ground ( chewed ) with saliva or other enymes of preliminary digestion will make a 'slug' which is about like 'Chewing Gum', and which in fact IS rather impermiable to dissolving afterward.


The Gluten and other peculiar things in Wheat, allow it this distinction, where no other grains that I know of, will do this., or would do this to that degree.


Anyone having Wheat on hand, may see this for themselves - 


Chew up a Teaspoon full, and, see for your self.


In a few seconds, it is almost like Chewing 'Gum', and it will not dissolve in the mouth, in saliva...and, once swallowed, most likely poops out just about as it was when swallowed - as a self-adhering, well defined, impermiable 'slug'.



So, here's my guess then on all this - 


If that 'slug' in fact WAS from your Bird...


And, if the Vet - though rude and punishing with his fees - was correct in his analysis of the 'slug', that it was or is in fact "Undigested Seeds"...


Even if he did not elaborate to include, "made into paste by the Giard, self-adhering, and not digested" Seeds...


If your youngster had been eating say, a half a Teaspoon of 'Wheat' at one sitting...


This 'slug' would be that 'Wheat'...


An as such, presents no clinical or pathological sign or symptom of dis-ease process whatsoever.


I hope this IS what happenned...





However, if you are seeing 'yellow' in her urates, or yellow 'water' urates, do please consider to treat her for 'Canker'...



Best wishes!


Phil

l v


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> No Phil, i did read your post, but you told me to ask pidgey about the baytril etc, hence i posted here. Also because the title of other thread doesnt really apply to her current problems, i thought i should post in this new thread, instead.
> 
> I am sure it was from her because the object was bloody, then when she was on the grass, she did another poo (that i saw her do) thatr was also bloody, and then subsequent poos were also bloody.




Hi nikku, 




Oh okay then...good...


Posts often get lost in times of excitement.


When you say 'bloody', how much blood are we talking about?


Phil


----------



## TAWhatley

I've just merged the threads .. it was getting too confusing for people to keep up.

Terry


----------



## nikku-chan

Bloody, as in similar to what it looked like in the pic, but there was blood in the poos she did with/after that as well. Not heaps of blood, but still blood.

I'm sure it came from her, as that was her nest box. Only she was in it, no other bird, and they didnt get their bums over the edge of her box to have done anything in there.

Her poos still extremely watery, with 8 or so tiny real poo parts like mice droppings, a small amt of watery white urates, then slightly yellow liquidish slime, the same colour as uncooked egg white.

I just spoke to my mum, she has human flagyl tablets, 200mg. Would mixing a quarter tablet in 2 mls water, then extracting the right amount (about 1/4 ml i think) be the best way? Can i keep the flagyl/water solution for the next time i medicate her? how long will flagyl last in water?

She is still a baby..4 weeks old. and she weighs 273 grams. So about 12.5 mg, twice a day by my calculations.


----------



## nikku-chan

i just found some links to calculating medications..it's under control now. I'll mix it with 20 mls and then give her 1 and 1/4 mls. I'm getting the flagyl in a few hours and hopefully baby will be well soon.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Nikku, 



Just gently open her Beak, and put a 1/3 of a 200 mG Tablet back into her Throat, for her to swallow...make sure it does not accidently get dropped or shaken out, make sure she swallows it.Trying to force liquids into their mouths is too dangerous...as well as that all in all, getting a small pill or portion of one back into their Throat is easy to do and safe.


Has to be gently pushed back past their tounge or else they can or will spit it out.


The dosage for Metronidazole/Flagyl, I believe is 200-250 mG per Kilo of Pigeon's weight, for each 24 hours.


So, if she weighs a little under 1/3rd of a Kilo...then say, conveniently, one third of 250 mG is roughly 82 mGs or so...



So, if my tired brain is working, then her dose would be around 1/3rd of a 200 mG tablet, or, 67 mGs as a rough but close-enough way of dealing with it.


1/2 a tablet, being 100 mGs, would likely be fine too if making for an easier 'break' or cut with a Raorblade, of the Tablet, or for the initial dose...for a Pigeon of her weight...or, just cut down a 1/2 a Tablet, to be 1/3rd...saving the whittled off parts till they can be one "1/3rd Tablet" dose too at some point, and ball the crumbs with a tiny bit of damp to make a little soft 'pill' for that dose, or wrap or wad with a TINY, tiniest possible bit of dampened Bread for that dose to be used.



Good luck..!



Phil
l v


----------



## nikku-chan

Hey thanks for the info Phil,

Are you sure that dosage is right? Pigdey said to give 50mg/kilo, 2 times a day..

So even if it was given once a day, it wouldn't be much more than 24 mg/kg would it?

sorry. had to edit. tired.


----------



## nikku-chan

As that would mean dividing the tablet into 16 pieces, it would be too hard. Perhaps i can soak a biscuit or 2 with the flagyl water solution? I know a biscuit will be easy to get down.


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey thanks for the info Phil,
> 
> Are you sure that dosage is right? Pigdey said to give 50mg/kilo, 2 times a day..
> 
> So even if it was given once a day, it wouldn't be much more than 24 mg/kg would it?
> 
> sorry. had to edit. tired.




There may have been a misunderstanding...



Dosage, for Pigeons, as for treating 'Canker' or related - 


200 - 250 mG per Kilo, Oral, per-day.


So, if the Pigeon weighs roughly 1/3 of a Kilo ( ie 333 Grams ) 


Then, 1/3rd of 250 mG is about 83 mG for an individual Bird weighing 330 grams, for 24 hours, or per-day.


200 Miligram Tablet, if divided into thirds, would yield a roughly 67 Miligram per 'third' Tablet dose...


So really, a little over one third of a 200 mG Tablet, would be 'right' or in the ball park for a 275 Gram Pigeon, per day.

With the initial dose being a Half-Tablet.


That is my understanding anyway.



If you like or have a good 'Math Brain' ( I do not have one at this moment!) 


Do the calculations -


Your pigeon's weight, I think it was 275 Grams


Dose, is 200 - 250 ( usually one leans to the '250' ) per Kilo of Pigeon, per day.


Figure out the Dose then for your Pigeon...and...


Determine what proportion or ratio of a 200 mG Tablet, that dose would be.



Best wishes!


Oh - did you read my conjecture about the 'Wheat'?



Phil


----------



## nikku-chan

yes yes, i did read about the wheat. It may be the case.
She doesn't like to eat wheat, but she may have ingested about that amount without her/me realising it.

Sorry, i didnt mean 24mg/kg, i meant 24mg a day.

Pidgey posted on this thread saying to give her 50mg per kg twice daily. (which comes to 12.5mg twice daily)

But you're saying to give her 250mg/kg a day. Which is over double the dose Pidgey said to give her..


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku,



The Avian Pharmacological Formulary indicates 200 - 250 Millgrammes per Kilo, Oral, per Day, for Pigeons.


This is the same reference any of us would resort to ( by memory or actual reference ) if we have had access to it.


If you like, slelect a figure in the middle - "225" then...do the math...see how it comes out, and base your decision on that as for your Bird's weight.


It does not have to be extremely precise, but should be fairly 'close'...or, if the dose is a little bit high, especially the initial dose, that is fine.


It would be good for you to provide actual, for sure, definite 'warmth' for your Bird for a few days anyway...so he is out of any indoor drafts, and is in some warm situation...so she is 'warm'...it would be best...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

Hello,

I am so sorry that your visit to the vet was so unpleasant and so expensive. 

Giving a sick pigeon the poop of a healthy pigeon to eat is quite common and acceptable. It is done on the basis that the healthy poops have good gut bacteria in them and that these will flourish in the sick pigeon and crowd out any bad bacteria. It has the same effect as natural yoghurt given as a probiotic. Antibiotics can destroy heathy gut bacteria.

JMO, but the vet saw and examined the inside of the mass and used a microscope. The trichomonads that cause canker are easy to identify under a microscope as they are flagellates and move a lot. I doubt that he would be unable to distinguish between a canker nodule or anything else and a mass of seeds. A canker nodule won't usually become localised and get expelled from the body without treatment. 

Did you photograph the mass after it had opened? It would be interesting to see how closely it resembles seeds. It would also be interesting to see her current poops. If you give her a white paper towel to sit on it will be easier to establish the condition of her poops.

Strangely, none of the pigeons that I have found with visible canker have had yellow urine or yellow urates.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I can guarantee that that plug didn't come through the intestines, it's from the cloaca or the oviduct.

With Flagyl, there are dosing strategies ranging from 10-30 mg/kg, PO, BID (BID=twice per day) all the way to 200-250 mg/kg, PO, SID (SID=once per day). It has a wide range of safety. I've gotten griped at on here before for going with the higher dosage once per day because, alledgedly, it doesn't provide for medicinal virtue for the full 24 hour period. At the time, I just didn't have the time or patience to explain to the person how "half-life" works and that with a 3.3 hour half-life in the system, a 250 mg/kg dose once in 24 hours ends up with the same plasma concentration as a 20 mg/kg dose does after 12 hours.

If you're interested in playing with the math, it works kinda' like this:

F=0.5^(I/H)*D

Where:

F=Final amount of drug left in system
I=Interval of Dosing, in hours
H=Half Life of Drug, in hours
D=Dose, in Milligrams

Now, technically, this only really illustrates the way the ratios play out when you put in different values here and there. It doesn't take into account what the absorption efficiency is for a particular route of administration, what a drug half life is in a given species, what the actual MIC is for a given pathogen in a particular species... all that stuff--it's just a way to compare different dosing ranges for the same species where the interval is in question.

Pidgey


----------



## nikku-chan

thanks for the replies guys..

I'll stick with the 24 mg dose daily then,
If it seems to work as i have noted on many of the threads in these forums, then i think it will do just fine 
Don't want to be stressing her system or giving her something overly strong or whatever..or hurting her bone marrow, especially if it isn't even canker.

It is SO hard to open her beak. She twists her head sideways and shakes it, i'm scared i'll twist her beak out of alignment or something. But i got it down eventually. Is there a special way to hold her head to stop her from shaking/twisting it?

Her poos are still in yellow liquid, but a bit better. She seems a bit more listless, staying in her nest, but still is eating fine..I've been feeding her milo mostly because its small. If she eats one of her poos, will this hurt her? i've seen her pecking at them before.

She makes more desperate squeaking noises lately too. Like she's losing her voice a bit, it kind of breaks/screeches.

I'll make her water garlic infused tomorrow...and give her some yoghurt. I put a big bottle of hot water next to her nest for warmth.

Yeah, the lump thing had an even consistency throughout, similar to fetta or bocconcini (spelling) cheese visually. Quite hard though.
I couldnt get a picture that wasn't blurry that showed the detail, and now the lump is dissected into a million pieces and in the vet's bin.

I saw it under the microscope myself because i got teary and basically questioned his competency, so he took me to the lab room, and showed me. Probably why he charged me so much.

He couldn't really break the mass up enough to see it properly..It stayed in chunks, however small. It just looked purple. The bacteria on the slide in between the chunks didn't seem to be moving, or like there was much, but that could have been just because of the chunks inability to smear properly.

He looked at her poos under there too. Would it show up in her poos if it was canker? He said they seemed normal.

I'm thinking about trying to find a pigeon sanctuary or the like for her to go to in a few weeks to live. She's basically started hovering off the ground now, and jump flapping, and taking her to graze in the busiest square in the city is a bit scary now. I doubt she'll be up to it tomorrow anyway.

Anyway, thanks guys. Hopefully she feels better tomorrow!


----------



## Pidgey

Seen a lot of that stuff in my time, actually:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Hi Nikku-Chan,

Don't worry, I'm not going to try to blind you with science. If you want to check a drug dosage for the drugs commonly used on pigeons then just go to our resources section and click on the post "Drugs chart drawn up by Nooti". She is one of our moderators and has rescued hundreds of pigeons a year and she did a lot of research before drawing up the chart. On the dosage of Metronidazole she says:

METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl)

Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID (Twice daily) or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days. 

In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a severe infection of trichomonas gallinae and in preventing an inside recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another bird).
Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal infections. 

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 


Send whatever is left of the 'object' to Pidgey.


I will reimburse you for the postage.

At least I hope you kept the 'object', or most of it, and did not leave it for the Vet to throw away?

Let us know?


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey

Oh, you can't tell much about those things under the scope--they're pure debris and bacteria attempting to decompose (eat) it. And snot. They tend to dry down very quickly, going from the bright yellow to a dark brown and hardening up dramatically (just like any self-respecting booger).

What you'd really want to do is swab it within minutes of its... "birth" and look for flagellating parasites (Trichomonads, Giardia, etc.). After a fairly short period of time, you're not going to see them anymore. I'd rather look at an actual poop smear itself to make a judgment on the bacterial balance so that little plug isn't helpful that way.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey, 



...but if it WAS a 'glob' self-adhering glutinous mass of Gizzard masticated 'Wheat' ...whose approximate impermiability to digestion saw it pass pretty intact...

You would be able to tell 'that', and distinguish it from intrinsically 'other' kinds of items.

This after all is a rather imortant distinction in this instance.

Have you ever chewed up a spoonfull of Wheat Pidgey?


If not, try it and see what it does.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey

Why, yes, I've chewed wheat to gluten before. I've even had vegetarian gluten-patties for dinner, although I don't think they kept people at a factory chewing the stuff up in order to make them...

When you catch this stuff fresh, it's more like scrambled eggs, though--it cuts fairly easily and almost, but not quite, spreads like butter (@ 50 deg F). Gluten, on the other hand, more resembles well-chewed bubble gum--it's definitely tougher. And I've no idea what it'd look like under a microscope.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

No Phil, the vet threw the object away...stupid me,. i should have kept it.

It's true that i let it dry out too much.

But the "object" wasnt bright yellow and didnt go to brown.

It was creamy white..and it pretty much stayed that way.
It was harder than scrambled egg, too. More like, gristle or something.

Pidgey, she's only a month old, do you still think it could be to do with her oviduct at this young stage?

I'm pretty sure i have human trimethotrim and keflex..i'm just scared to over-medicate her if she doesn't need it.

Her poos seem to be dark brown now...no yellow that i have seen (although i haven't seen a fresh poo yet, i only just woke up)


----------



## nikku-chan

Her leg is no better though..
and the vet DID say that he thought it was her nerve...
Maybe she has a kidney infection..would that explain the yellow urine?


----------



## Pidgey

On the one hand, a person, be they vet or rehabber, is usually looking for as exact a diagnosis as possible in order to give the right medication or whatever. Since we've started Metronidazole, there is a certain amount of "wait and see" to be done here. If the bird responds to therapy, then further speculation isn't really that valuable. Wouldn't be the first time the right drug was given for the wrong reason and worked.

Can it be from the oviduct in one so young? Sure, if it's the right pathogen. Trichomonads, for instance, swim around and spread out. Inflammatory debris has a few different presentations as there are slightly different inflammatory responses, depending. Also, sometimes those things become "calcareous" and do get to resembling a blend of scrambled eggs and limestone. That's because the body is trying to render the object less harmful, pathogenically speaking, by way of turning it into a rock that the breeding germs can't get out of. The body can even deplete calcium stores trying to do this, which may have something to do with your bird's bad leg. Only time and good nutrition would heal that condition after the offending stuff is removed.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Yes, a kidney infection in birds can cause varying degrees of paralysis in birds' legs due to the fact that the nerve runs through the kidney. So, swelling=pressure on the nerve.

It's a bit hard to tell in any particular case whether this is the root cause, of course. You almost always end up speculating.

A Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination (Bactrim, Cotrim and about a thousand other trade names) is very often a pretty good antibiotic for nestlings. Keflex (Cephalexin) is also good but long term therapy can set up a "Superinfection".

Let's keep a watch on the poops and see how they go. If the yellow goes away and stays there then we'll want to watch and see what the leg does. There doesn't seem to be any imminent danger at this point, does there?

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

No, she still seems fairly alert, still eating and so on.

She even flew out of the bathtub today for the first time!

If milo is all she wants to eat, is this alright?


----------



## Pidgey

My first rescue ate a lot of milo. The youngsters seem to go for it a lot, oddly enough. I can't tell you whether they're attracted to the regularity of the size and shape, or the color, certainly not the taste...

It's a lot easier to admonish your children to "eat your vegetables".

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

By the way, Phil, I guess one of the biggest reasons that I seem to discount the idea that that plug of stuff passed completely through the bird's GI tract is because I don't think something that big can. It doesn't take that many worms to block 'em off enough that only dilute formula will go through. When you see those poops that are strings in water, that's about how small the piping actually is. If you look real closely at one of the more formed poops, you'll often even see how it's a wound ball-of-yarn of those small strings. If a standard pigeon had something of that size in its ventriculus that wouldn't liquify or squeeze down, it'd tend to ultimately vomit it back up or die of the blockage, methinks.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

If that is the case, what a stupid stupid vet.
I hate that man. I can't believe we don't even have an avian vet in this city (which has over 1 million people).

He was so intimidating too. He made me feel like such a stupid child.

Is there a chance that the wheat went through the system in separate pieces, and then somehow bound together at the end?

Seriously, Doctors, Vets, they think they know everything, but most of the time the internet is a far better resource.

It's like they graduate from med/vet school, and then just stagnate...not learning anything new..
In my experience anyway..


----------



## nikku-chan

By the way, Pecky has now graduated to Flappy.
She's figured out how to flap out of the bathtub, and if i re-place her, she's out again in a minute or two. She think's she's so clever. I can see it on her face.

She's supposed to be resting her leg...hehe


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## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> By the way, Phil, I guess one of the biggest reasons that I seem to discount the idea that that plug of stuff passed completely through the bird's GI tract is because I don't think something that big can. It doesn't take that many worms to block 'em off enough that only dilute formula will go through. When you see those poops that are strings in water, that's about how small the piping actually is. If you look real closely at one of the more formed poops, you'll often even see how it's a wound ball-of-yarn of those small strings. If a standard pigeon had something of that size in its ventriculus that wouldn't liquify or squeeze down, it'd tend to ultimately vomit it back up or die of the blockage, methinks.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey, 



I think this item could have gone clear 'through'...


Once the Wheat Kernals were well hydrated and so on in the Stomach, and then masticated in the Gizzard...the glutinous attenuated wad could have been more lengthly and thinner, passing through the intestings, to be peristolically 'massaged' into a more chubby and shorter shape, and, got on out the Vent. 


This in itself might account for the flecking of Blood ( if there is not some other cause or reason, and, of course, there may be ) .


I see poops sometimes from 'squeakers' which woud make a Sailor bush.


I am not kidding, some of these somtimes are what you would expect from a small Dog. And not just being lots of thing strings piled up either, but 'thick' strings, like 'Pencils' or better in width...so I think their muscles or tone there, especially at the end, but all through, can let pass and let out some whoppers, and this item or object is in that ballpark, even on the merely 'medium' size as for what is possible.

Granted, their system normally only deals with pulp in liuid for however long the first stages are till the Water reclaimation occurs toward the end...


Some of the adult Pigeons here, you'd think they pooped out a 'Thumb' sometimes the poop is so wide and long.


Lol...



And Lord help you if you are in Leather Soled Dress Shoes, and one of them has layed one of those 'puppies' on the Linoleum, and you are in a fast stride and do not see it!


It is about as good as stepping on a 'Roller Skate'...or Ice Cube as for good, old time, Vaudeville prat-falls...or barely keeping one's balance to stay on your feet.


Lol...

So, I say, "I think by golly they CAN do it!"



That's my offical vote..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> If that is the case, what a stupid stupid vet.
> I hate that man. I can't believe we don't even have an avian vet in this city (which has over 1 million people).
> 
> He was so intimidating too. He made me feel like such a stupid child.
> 
> Is there a chance that the wheat went through the system in separate pieces, and then somehow bound together at the end?
> 
> Seriously, Doctors, Vets, they think they know everything, but most of the time the internet is a far better resource.
> 
> It's like they graduate from med/vet school, and then just stagnate...not learning anything new..
> In my experience anyway..



Hi nikku, 



Certainly many do seem to lose their Humanity after a while.


And when we walk in and run into it, it is pretty disuieting, especially as we and our Birds are really so innocent, and, these Vets so many times, so jaded and hardened, all they have left is the greed for money and perfunctory motions.


This old guy, even though there is a lot to be disappointed in, at least he was in the ballpark on all of it, he knows more than most do or will, and at least he did talk with you and mention the things he thought were germain.


Believe me, it can be a lot worse..!



And my guess?


If you were to get into this sort of 'work' and had a steady stream of Birds...and if you went and talked to him personally a few times, he might just feel some of his 'old' esprit and ethos welling up, and he might even end up being a good friend and a good resourse, who would work with you now and then, and not charge or not charge hardly anything.


It is possible...



But regardless, all of here have been through those kinds of Vet visits, and they can be much worse even..!


Best wishes, 


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

Good idea, but i embarrassed myself quite a bit..wouldn't want to ever see him again. Since i took my mum with me, he seemed to think i was a 15 or 16 year old rebellious child just sprouting off the names for diseases and accusing him of not doing his job properly...

Hopefully i can find a better vet if i need to go again..i know some lovely ones, just not ones that specialise in birds..but at least they might be more willing to consider all the possibilites of what might be wrong, rather than telling me that they like to use the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) method of dealing with birds, as this man did.

This guy, i told him twice that Pecky's leg had been sore for 2 days, and he kept saying that it was a week.

He kept getting the info wrong that i'd told him, Even her weight. Even how long ago i'd found her/how old she was. He got pretty much all of it wrong. And he didn't like it one bit when i corrected him.

It was like he wasnt even listening.

Anyway, enough vet rants. Her poos are now dark brown, kind of the consistency of curry paste, as in, it isn't super smooth, but more bitty. Kind of like a concoction of spices/ground nuts in an oil base. Isn't really well shaped either, but this could just be because she will only eat milo now.

No change on the leg, but not getting worse either


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey Phil,
> 
> Good idea, but i embarrassed myself quite a bit..wouldn't want to ever see him again. Since i took my mum with me, he seemed to think i was a 15 or 16 year old rebellious child just sprouting off the names for diseases and accusing him of not doing his job properly...
> 
> Hopefully i can find a better vet if i need to go again..i know some lovely ones, just not ones that specialise in birds..but at least they might be more willing to consider all the possibilites of what might be wrong, rather than telling me that they like to use the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) method of dealing with birds, as this man did.
> 
> This guy, i told him twice that Pecky's leg had been sore for 2 days, and he kept saying that it was a week.
> 
> He kept getting the info wrong that i'd told him, Even her weight. Even how long ago i'd found her/how old she was. He got pretty much all of it wrong. And he didn't like it one bit when i corrected him.
> 
> It was like he wasnt even listening.



Hi nikku, 


Oh well...at least you tried!


And yes, lets hope better Vets, and Vets with better manners and attitudes, will be found should there be a next-time.




> Anyway, enough vet rants. Her poos are now dark brown, kind of the consistency of curry paste, as in, it isn't super smooth, but more bitty. Kind of like a concoction of spices/ground nuts in an oil base. Isn't really well shaped either, but this could just be because she will only eat milo now.
> 
> No change on the leg, but not getting worse either




And the Urates? Are they yellowish, any yellowish liquid? Or...?


Their poops can sometimes get a little 'fiber' looking, especially if their Gizzard is not really grinding the Seeds as fine as usual, or, some kinds of Seeds will do this more than others...


If you can get her some plain 'Grit' it should be fine to do, even the small boxes of it they sell in Grocerys for people's Canarys, which is just fine Quartz.


Avoid any 'Calcium' enriched Grits if she is on or going to be on Antibiotics.


Their Gizzard, as you may know, is their means of mastication. Seeds are eaten, hydrated in their Crop...pass into their Stomach where they are further hydrated and semi-digested, then ground into a 'paste' in the Gizzard, where as a liquid suspension of ground paste, a 'soup', they pass to the Intestines for assimilation of Nutrients, and ultimately, for as much Water as possible to be re-claimed, making for ( ideally, ) a nice, tidy, merely 'damp' and well-formed poop being produced.

Their Urine is highly concentrated into being the 'White' Paste we see on top of or however so, with the poop.


So, when we see watery poops ( aside from those made in moments of nerviousness or fright) we know something is not-right in the Intestines where the excess Water would normally be getting re-claimed.

When we see watery Urates, we know something is not-right with their Kidneys. And, 'yellow' in the Urates indicated infection somewhere, or processinf or cleansing of the Blod of infection by-products, but we do not know where and have to look for other hints or cues to try and guess....as well as guess whether it is a Trichomona infection, or, something else. And many kinds of infections will not effect the Urates that way, so...some do, and even then, the some which do, do not do so consistantly. Or soe do fairly consistantly in some parts of the World, and do not do so in other parts of the World..!


Yellow Urates or yellow 'water color' paint looking urates, here, in the Southern Mojave, are reliably an indicator of 'Canker' in some form...yet, Pigeons will have Cabker in other parts of the World, and show no 'yellow' Urates.





Are you keeping her warm?



Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,
yep, its quite warm in Australia at the moment..about 30C and only goes down to 18C or so at night, but i am giving her a hot bottle of water to cuddle next to if she wants. She seems to prefer to sit on her newspaper though, rather than in her nest next to the bottle.

She keeps flapping out of the bath, and i find her on the tile floor, just standing there. I have a towel nest for her on the ground, but she doesnt seem to like it. I've left water and food and so forth.

The grit..i bought pigeon grit, doesnt seem to like it though. I will try the one you suggest.

The urates are minimal, but white. It seems that the "water" component, i.e not the urates or poo part, is slightly yellow, like the colour off uncooked egg white, but it isnt AS watery as it has been, and not AS yellow as some of her previous ones.

She seems really active despite her leg. She's sitting on boyfriend's knee at the moment...she's really been testing her wings today...

Should i confine her to a box or something for a few days, just to keep her off her leg?

She seems to hold it up when she can, and uses it when she cant, but constantly shifts her weight, and it looks kind of splayed, but only that leg. She also does lost of wing-leg stretches with the sore leg.

Will she overuse it because of the steroid injection the vet gave her?

I feel bad to confine her because she is so active, but if i don't her leg might not get better. I'm scared she'll hurt it in a flying activity, and if she doesn't even feel it because of the nerve, it'll just make the whole thing worse.

If it were the nerve, would overactivity exacerbate the problem? I guess it would, cause more inflamation etc.

So box her or let her flap around?


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku,


It is certainly a good sign that she wants to be active..!

I do not have any strong ideas about the Leg - whether it is a symptom of a Kidney infection, effecting the sciatic nerve on that side, or, whether she strained a muscle, or, possibly both.


The regimen of Metronidale seems to me to be a good idea since she is showing 'yellowish' urates, and, possibly, some antibiotic regimen also, to be given concurrently, might be a good idea to try and address infections outside the range of the Metronidazole's ballywick.


I know this was discussed somewhat earlier, and I have been brooding about it.


Which Antibiotic to elect or seek out to use, I am not sure.


Baytril/Cipro/Enrofloxyn are usual resorts for many ambiguous or infered infections...but then so are various kinds of Tetracyclines, or yet other familys...and when we do not know what the supposed or infered infection is, it is hard to have much to go on as for what antibiotic to elect, other than a guess or 'feeling' based on past successes with similar situations.


Some Viruses can effect their kidneys, making for yellow or yellowish Urates, and these Viruses will not be cured by Antibiotics.


If she is not interested in Grit, that is fine...


If it was me, I would let her flap and trot and play and excercise all she likes...this improves and supports circulation, digestion, builds muscles and nerves and co-ordinations, and hence benifts her system as a whole, and encourages her immune system, so, especially since she wishes TO excercise, if it was me, I would encourage it and let her do all she likes.


If her Leg issue is from a Kidney inflammation, excercise will not strain the Leg or inhibit it's healing, since it is not the Leg itself which is the issue...and the better her circulation is, of course the better her system can be fighting whatever the infection is.



If her Leg issue is because she had pulled a muscle or strained a ligament or something where her Leg is the actual issue, then she can be the judge of how much to favor it or use it, and it will possibly take a week or two whether she is allowed to excercise or not, for it to return to normal, so...I would say, may as well let her excercise all she likes...but try not to let her flap down from higher places where she might hit the floor hard for the one leg being weaker in use right now.



Best wishes!



Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

okay, done!

Her urates did look slightly yellow and watery today..unless there weren't any urates at all, and it was just the water component. Either way, her poos keep alternating between good and bad, so that is far better than them being all bad!

She is the sweetest little baby...
Today i put her in her spot while i had a shower, she flapped right out, and waddled into the shower with me. She lay on my foot, and raised her little wings, and cuddled down. Feeling a warm and wet baby bird cuddling up on my foot is so sweet. I LOVE her. I blow dried her a bit..which she wasn't really sure about. She tried to run and hide!

She likes to sit in the shower...even when it isn't on. she's so inquisitive now  But she HATES her Flagyl. She fights me so badly! she almost "spits" it out like a human would!


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Have you been able to look far into her Throat in a strong Light?


Probably nothing there to see...but, go ahead and see if you can get a good look...

Sit under a Desk Lamp or something, wrap her gently in a small towell like a 'Burrito', so you can 'spigot' her upright between your knees, so you have both hands free, yet are holding her there like that by just gripping the extra Towelling at about the region her Tail and Primarys would be, so there is no pressure on her.


This is a good way to hold them to be able to Look down their Throat.


Things should look a 'healthy pink'...


If anything is not that way, or if you see any odd little whitish or yellowish lumps or things clining to her Tonsils or anything, let us know...or if her Throat is dark or dark red or not a happy 'pink'...


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil, i have tried this many times.

I think she knows now that she can get out of it by struggling..

I just can't open her mouth wide enough to actually see properly. she twists her head so that it feels like i'm breaking her beak...and i'm scared i'll twist it off, or bruise her nostrils. Also, her llittle eyes get in the way to get a good grip.

It feels like i've lost her trust a little already but shoving the tablet down her throat..but next time it's tablet time, i'll see if i can get a look down.

Also, i;ve noticed she barely does urates anymore..it's basically all poo with some water, and the tiniest spec of white urates. I hope that isn't a problem.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Her Urine being a cloudy or opaque liquid with only traces of 'white' is a sign of illness or infection, so, it is not 'good'. Not anything to panic about, obviously, as she seems to be feeling pretty decent, but, it is not 'right' or not good anyway, since it is a symptom of something being wrong with her kidneys.


They can have "BEAKS OF IRON" that are about impossible to open, if they want to.


And, of course, one does not want to risk hurting them by any use of force, ever.

Usually, "usually", even the most recalsitrant Pigeon, will agree to let us open his or her beak, once they accept there is a reason for it, and or that it is okay to let us.


One thing you could try...is to moisten your finger tips in hot water, and shake the excess Water off, and instantly then, gently 'massage' her Beak down at it's base area where the corners of her mouth are.


Possibly, doing this a few times off and on, at some point, she will 'nuzzle', as in asking to be fed...this might only be a tiny bit or might be full blown.

If she 'nuzzles', she will be opening and closeing her Beak...not opening it much, but a little anyway, as if she were 'drinking' sort of...and she wil sort of push a little into your fingers probably.

If she does this, pause, hold a Seed in your finger tips, show it to her, tap it on the top front of her Beak, see if she will nibble at it...and, if she does, see if she will let you open her Beak to put the Seed in there.

If she is willing to let you open her Beak, it will be easy, she might resist a little, or resist or try and close it once it is open, but this is just the first phase of working with her, so, no matter, build from there...and or, she might even open it for you even...


They HATE us opening their Beaks if they do not get that there is some reason, it's hard to explain, but, working with them a little, I find they will come around to let me do it, and that is some of what I do, to be allowed to do it.


Otherwise, it is the "BEAK OF IRON!" routine, and forget it...King Kong is not going to get THAT Beak open..!


So, try those things, might take ten or fifteen trys even...wrap her in the 'Burrito' so she is spigoted, as mentioned earlier...do that a while, then let her goof off and flap and so on si she does not feel the ordeal was over long. Then try it again.


This of course is something I run into a lot with Pigeons I have to tube feed, or I need to check their Throats, or I need to 'pop' a Pill into their Throats...or even who because of their not eating, I need to 'pop' Seeds ( maybe 100 at a sitting, one at a time, ) down there...so...since I will not use 'force' I have to get them to agree to it...and wow, when they do? it is "easy" then...but they have to be willing to go along to some extent anyway.


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey

It's usually the case where they're a lot easier to handle when they're sicker. As they get better, they get increasingly harder to handle. And more aware that they're in the wrong place. If you've got several birds living with you like Phil does, that can calm them down some. Anyway, they don't usually make the connection that what you're doing for them (the medicines) is helping them or saving their lives.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Yahhhh...


New Arrives, if I have to give a Pill...

I have them in the 'Lap Towell Cave' for a little while...be gentle with things.


I take the Pill, show it to them, tap it softly on the top front of their Beak...and I tell them we need for them to eat the Pill.


Sometimes they do peck the Pill and eat it, and if not, then usually they will at least let me open their beak with merely some halting and mild resistance.


The "BEAKS OF IRON" ( Lol...) are often young adults who are not eating, and not willing to be fed like-a-Baby, and who I need to get some food into, so I will do 'Seed Pops', and always after a little while of working with them, they relax and let me open their Beak for putting Seeds in, and very soon they get into liking it, and Seed-Pops then, soon merge into them pecking or gobbleing' in the Shot Glass of small whole Seeds even.


I have had some who would 'gape' for my just having the 'vee' between two fingers over their Beak root area, once we had gotten the preliminarys out of the way, so I could very easily then put a Seed or two into their Mouth with my other hand.


Showing them the Pill or Seed, telling them what we have in mind, tapping it softly on the top front of their Beak, definitely helps.



Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil, she nuzzles me quite often, it is very sweet. She's so desperate sometimes..i feel so bad i can't give her what she wants. I let her nuzzle me as much as she wants, until she realises there's no milk for her, but is this healthy?

She never opens wide enough when she's nuzzling, and if she does, it's for the shortest second. Showing her the seed, she just wants to eat it herself, she doesnt want me to "pop" it in.

However! Today, i held the tablet piece in my fingers like i would a seed, and she took it, tested it with a few tapping sounds, and ATE it!
What a good girl!

She seems super active today, there were poos every 10 cm on the bathroom floor this morning, she must have done alot of exploring.

And everytime i turn the shower on, she runs to it!

She is lovely. I'll try to get a shot of her taking a shower today.


----------



## nikku-chan

I'm curious, when fledglings leave the nest at 4 weeks, to go and peck with the flock, how can they survive the cats etc?

Obviously, nesting in such high places, they can't get back to the nest.

Do they just sit on the ground or perch on a low tree branch for the next week until they're strong enough to fly properly?

Their parents wouldn't stay with them, they'd go back to the nest to attend the smaller babies.

So..what goes on?

I took pecky out into the backyard yesterday and set her up on a table while Luke and i played a game of chess next to her. She sat there content for ages, i didn't think she'd have the guts/ability to leave it, since she never does when she's on the table inside. But she flew right down to the ground! No more outside time for her!


----------



## Pidgey

Well, doves start flying when they're a lot younger than pigeons do. And most don't survive through even their teenage months when it comes right down to it. Not only do they have to avoid predators but they have to learn to forage for food and water properly. It's a real struggle.

Pidgey


----------



## nikku-chan

Hmm, that's really sad.

Since she only pecked with the ferals once, i'd be cautious to leave her with them when it's time for her to go.

If there's someone who has homing pigeons, or something, maybe they would take her, and then, if she's locked in the flight pen for a few days to get used to the other pigeons, i assume, she would stay with them. That way she has the best of both worlds. A mate, free flight, healthcare, and a flock she feels safe with.

I'll ring the South Australian Homing Pigeons Society..maybe they will know someone..


----------



## nikku-chan

Sorry for all the posting..
Her foot DOES seem swollen now, compared to the other one.

In the place that all of her toes connect to her leg. The centre part.

I'll take some pics to post in a few hours.


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey Phil, she nuzzles me quite often, it is very sweet. She's so desperate sometimes..i feel so bad i can't give her what she wants. I let her nuzzle me as much as she wants, until she realises there's no milk for her, but is this healthy?
> 
> She never opens wide enough when she's nuzzling, and if she does, it's for the shortest second. Showing her the seed, she just wants to eat it herself, she doesnt want me to "pop" it in.
> 
> However! Today, i held the tablet piece in my fingers like i would a seed, and she took it, tested it with a few tapping sounds, and ATE it!
> What a good girl!
> 
> She seems super active today, there were poos every 10 cm on the bathroom floor this morning, she must have done alot of exploring.
> 
> And everytime i turn the shower on, she runs to it!
> 
> She is lovely. I'll try to get a shot of her taking a shower today.





Hi Nikku, 



Very good...glad to hear the 'pill' ended up being easy, once you two co-operated/communicated in the effort!


Personally, when I raise a Baby, I 'Baby Feed' them till they feel they are too old and digified and proud or haughty to do it anymore.


In Nature, their parents Baby-Feed them untill they are something onto 45 days or so, or it will vary a little.


It is not hard to do, but it requires a little finesse and understanding, just like all the rest of it does, really, if one wants them to be active agents and interactive ones.



'Milk' in this sense of your mentioning it, being 'Pigeon Milk', which must never be confused with Cow's Milk of course...but, that phase was only for her first five or six days or so.


Her 'Nuzzleing' is not about 'Milk', but about how her Natural History would normally see her being fed by her parents till a couple weeks after she flys, and has by then learned to graze and find Water and so on with her parents and the feral others. And gradually self feeding along with being fed, usually over-lap a little while.


Remember, in Nature, they never see a 'Seed' or see 'Water' till several days after becomiung able fliers, meaning a week or ten days or so AFTER they 'fledge', and all they know untill then, is that 'food' and 'water' are an emotional-viscerotonic-aesthetic-re-assuring thing connected with their parents, and they do not experience it as an exterior thing one does alone....even though of course they can and will learn to Peck and Drink from an early age, especially if we work with them.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> I'm curious, when fledglings leave the nest at 4 weeks, to go and peck with the flock, how can they survive the cats etc?
> 
> Obviously, nesting in such high places, they can't get back to the nest.
> 
> Do they just sit on the ground or perch on a low tree branch for the next week until they're strong enough to fly properly?
> 
> Their parents wouldn't stay with them, they'd go back to the nest to attend the smaller babies.
> 
> So..what goes on?
> 
> I took pecky out into the backyard yesterday and set her up on a table while Luke and i played a game of chess next to her. She sat there content for ages, i didn't think she'd have the guts/ability to leave it, since she never does when she's on the table inside. But she flew right down to the ground! No more outside time for her!



Hi nikku, 


I can never remember the 'days' as for when what happens in their growing up...but...

No, when they 'fledge' they spend the next week or more, staying CLOSE to their Nest, staying a few feet to a few yards, staying places where their Parents can and will find them or see themor can call TO them for being fed...and overthis week or more, the fledgling is testing their Wings in pregressive "small" forays, and they do NOT go flying off with their parents.



So, if we say, "They Fledge at 28 days"...they are FAR from being able to make it at that age and are far feo being able to 'fly' in any practical sense of the term...and their next couple weeks are the phase of getting to where they CAN fly fifty feet maybe, or soon after, maybe a hundred feet, let along more, to be able TO get anywhere TO Graze or find Water with their parents, and all this time, theyare under the guidance of their parents...and or they stay "put" someplace near the Nest.


I doubt I have ever released anyone younger than 45 days or 50...


The starving young post-fledglings we find or are brought, are those who got seperated from their parents during their post-fledging, pre-self sufficiency phase...where, yes, they WERE 'flying' sort of, a little, ten or fifteen yards worth maybe at most, but were not FLYING in any practical sense yet, and, if they got strayed or seperated trying to keep up, or whatever happenned, they are doomed.


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hmm, that's really sad.
> 
> Since she only pecked with the ferals once, i'd be cautious to leave her with them when it's time for her to go.
> 
> If there's someone who has homing pigeons, or something, maybe they would take her, and then, if she's locked in the flight pen for a few days to get used to the other pigeons, i assume, she would stay with them. That way she has the best of both worlds. A mate, free flight, healthcare, and a flock she feels safe with.
> 
> I'll ring the South Australian Homing Pigeons Society..maybe they will know someone..



No, 'Homers' typically know nothing, and have no skills or wiles, and have nothing to teach or embue or impart, except for maybe, just the part of having to hold your own at the Seed Bowl to not get squeezed out.


'Homers' and 'Racers' will generally die if escaped or lost because they know nothing, and never got to acquire the modes of being the ferals have.



Some individuals can or will manage, will somehow align themselves with the learning curve, can become socialized ( educated ) to find feral Mates, and become successful 'Wild' ( feral ) Birds on their own.


This is considered the rare exception however.



Anyway, later on, we can go through some methods for her to be able to be socialied with her feral kin, so, for now, don't worry about it, it can be done later once she is over these deteurs.


I have an ex-racer here who was alost Bird...registered 'owner' never returned my calls over four months, so, I kept her.


It took her probably six months to fit in, here in the INDOOR 'feral' milieu...JUST to fit in sort of and not to look and act so clueless.


It took a year probably befofre you could look at her and say "Okay, she not only HAS the 'mode'...she IS the 'mode' personified.


She acquired a ( free rove, pre-release) feral mate, has raised Babys now, is a very together and bright Bird, and, now, "now" for her time here, I am confident she would manage well if released.



Where, without this time and constant being with the ferals in here, she would not have made the transition.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Oh, no,
I didn't mean that she should learn from them to be feral. I meant that she could live with them. They could be her flock, and she could peck at the seed dish with them, etc. She could be a pet.

Here are some pics. Her poos seem to bevarying, but usually like the pic. The yellow liquid dries to a brown waterstain. Sometimes she does urates, sometijmes she doesnt. She's been eating alot of popcorn lately. She loves it.


----------



## nikku-chan

another thing, today, she is holding her two outside toes together (on her sore foot). Could this help to understand what is going on?


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



She looks very pretty, and normal...


Granted, she is 'sick' with something fairly mild but she looks good.


I do not see anything going on with her Foot, other than she is letting her weight be a little to one side to favor the other Leg.

The one little well formed poop there in the image, is 'little' as far as poops go...


So, how long has she been on the Metronidazole, and, what has the dose per day been?

And what percentage of her poops are well formes likethe 'little' one, and what percentage are leaky-snake ones?


Phil
l v


----------



## nikku-chan

She limps REALLY badly, with her foot, and holds it up whenever she can. It seems if she uses it too much, she holds it up to rest it more.

Pretty much all of her poos are well formed like that one...but she just did one that DID have watery yellow urates and yellow water.

A few days ago she was doing heaps lose style ones..basically splotchy ones, like when you look down the long-drop with a torch (hehe)

A day after that she was doing really nice normal ones..kind of like strings with brown and white urates forming nice little balls..

But yesterday and today haven't been so good..who knows..

She's been on flagyl since thursday night, and i've been giving her 24 mg a day..which is the 50mg per kilo deal.

Thats what i was thinking..i mean her poos and leg say otherwise, but she does seem pretty healthy apart from that. Surely if it was a kidney infection (what i'm scared of because of her leg), then she would be looking much sicker.

She likes to sit RIGHT at the edge of the door, where it meets the doorframe, so everytime we go into the bathroom, we have to door-move her until we can get in. Doorway is her favourite poo spot as well. hehe.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Nikku, 



If it was 'Canker, day three on the right dose would have seen an alleviation of any 'yellow' in the poops...if not by day 'two'.

Problem is, with the too light of dose, if it is Canker, you are merely breeding a resistant strain out of the basal strain...or, if it not Canker, it is not responding either, so there is no way to say.


The advantage of a Theraputic Dose, is that "that" question would have been solved by now, or, at least strongly implied, one way or the other...as for whether it is Canker, or, something else, causing the 'yellow' ish Urates, and or possibly inflaming her Kidneys, causing swelling of her Kidneys, effecting her sciatic Nerve, effecting her Leg.


The Leg issue of course is possibly just a strained muscle or tendon, and might not have anything to do with implying a Kidney inflamation...


They can look totally "healthy" with Kidney infections severe enough to make both Legs totally 'limp'...so, their superficial demeaner or appearance or level of activity has no relation to the realities of what infection ( viral or other) is effecting them sometimes.

Some, most, kinds of illness, when severe enough, yes, they will "look" sick indeed...but not looking conspicuously sick, is not a reliable index of their actual condition.




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> She likes to sit RIGHT at the edge of the door, where it meets the doorframe, so everytime we go into the bathroom, we have to door-move her until we can get in. Doorway is her favourite poo spot as well. hehe.


See the several prior posts...


She is trying to position herself for being able to stay in sight or survey of you.


This is what they do, and in Nature, their survival depends on them doing this untell they are ready for independance.



Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

I'll give her double the dose for the next few days..see if it helps..

Her poos are now lighter and green..heading towards bright, still in little mouse poo formations.

Could be because she devoured the corn.

I bought some green whole lentils..are they the right kind?
They were smaller than the brown ones there..


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Nikku, 



Just run through the math from scratch...she weighs, what, 273 Grammes?


And, if the Pharmacopia calls for 200-250 Milligrammes per Kilo for Pigeons, then, see what the actual range is for her weight.

And, consider to dose at the mid-point of that range, and see if after two or three days ( of a four or five day regimen) there is a change in the Urates and Poops to where they become and remain normal.


If they do not, we can say that Canker, or Giardia or other ills which would respond to the Metronidaole, are not now an issue.


And, if there are still symptoms of something being amiss, then we can try and figure out what that may be, and what to do about it.


None of 'my' Pigeons would ever eat Lentils, and none of the outside ones would either.


Small, whole dried Peas, small size whole dried Corn ( like old fashioned plain Popping Corn)...White Safflower Seeds...Milo...Millet...Oat Groats...Sunflower 'Kernals' when fresh and 'sweet'...every one seems to like.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

i tried giving her some lentils anyway, and she ate them if i hand fed her, but if there is corn about, she won't eat anything else. Apart from skinned sunflower seeds! She eats endive if i feed it to her too (by hand).

I've given her the bigger dose now of the flagyl.

She's such a big girl, she flew up onto the bathroom sink all by herself!

She does sink poos now. so convenient! i just have to turn on the tap and goodbye poos!


----------



## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey Phil,
> 
> i tried giving her some lentils anyway, and she ate them if i hand fed her, but if there is corn about, she won't eat anything else. Apart from skinned sunflower seeds! She eats endive if i feed it to her too (by hand).



Sounds good to me! Those are all good Seeds/foods for her.


Milo, Millet, White Safllower would be good to add if you can.




> I've given her the bigger dose now of the flagyl.
> 
> She's such a big girl, she flew up onto the bathroom sink all by herself!
> 
> She does sink poos now. so convenient! i just have to turn on the tap and goodbye poos!



Very convenient..!


Maybe she could show mine how to do that!


I was thinking about her Leg...


If there is swelling in her Foot, where the Toes converge ( this is really her wrist in effect ) she might have hurt it there or sprained it a little, which would be painful and cause her to not want to put much weight on it.


If this were what is going on, then there is no need to postulate about sciatic or kidney issues of course, other than those can sometimes accompany Canker or other infections which can be showing off poops/urates.


I could not tell in the images about any swelling or redness or hints of anything with her Foot...only that she is a very cute and happy little Pigeon.



Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

yeah, i'm not so sure about the swelling now..from some angles it looks a tiny bit swollen, but then some angles it doesn't.

There isn't any redness.

The reason that made me think it was the nerve was that although she holds it up and acts like it is sore when running around, it doesn't STOP her from running around. I've tried manipulating it, squeezing it gently, etc, and i cannot actually find a spot that is sore at all for her.

Almost like, it's weaker.. maybe. When i pick her up, she generally lets it hang scrunched up rather than open like her other foot is.

And also, when she walks, she holds her two outside claws together, touching, while on the other foot, they are spaced far apart. Once, when i put her down, the outside toe even crossed over, underneath the toe next to it.

I assume that by pressing on the nerve, it would make the leg weaker, rather than make it sore, right? So maybe what i interpreted at first as pain, is just a weakness...

But then again, she does hold the foot up whenever she can..if she couldn't feel it, i assume she wouldn't care to hold it up.

So much speculation! who knows really, what it is. Only time will tell. I guess the main thing that worries me is that it seems to be no better. Although, it seems to be no worse either.

When I initially noticed though, the limp was so tiny, i wasn't even sure if it was a limp. Which doesn't help either..because A) she could have sprained it a tiny bit, and then did further damage later, or it became more swollen later, or B) it was the nerve gradually being pinched tighter.

But, it did seem like it got worse gradually over a period of 2 days. Maybe 3.

Thanks for all your help. Let me know if you think of anything else about her leg. And I'll keep you updated.

I'm going to the fodder store tomorrow, i've run out of peas, and i'll get white safflower seeds and millet while i'm there. She has an abundance of milo 

Stupidly, last time i was there, i got 5kg of grit. What the hell did i think i was going to do with 5 kilos of grit?!
I don't think a pigeon would be able to eat 5 kg in its whole life, much less a few months!

And speaking of grit, she sometimes eats it if i handfeed it to her. Is this good? I don't wanna over-grit her. She tends to love to eat anything out of my hands..will she know when NOT to eat grit from my hands if she doesn't need it?


----------



## nikku-chan

Hey! I was reading the thread about how everyone first got into pigeons, and did a search for Bison Studios... You make pottery tools!

That's funny. I'm a potter. hehe. They look awesome. Even as objects by themselves. I love the handles (I have a handle fetish).

Do you make things out of clay, too, or just the tools?


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## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Grit wise, if an Pigeon 'needs' a Teaspoon worth a Month I would be surprised.


Leg wise, I keep thinking this was a strain or mild sprain or pulled muscle.


Either of which can begin 'small', appear to get 'worse', then take two weeks or more to resolve.


The Nerve-thing: Have you ever had your Leg 'fall asleep' because you were sitting too long with your weight on one 'cheek'? And you get up and it is numb and half-useless and then 'thaws out'? You know then how hard it is to walk when that is going on!


That is what the Nerve-thing would be for her...and, she would not trot or 'run' well at all with that, she'd just fall over if she tried...so, my bet is on the pulled muscle or ligament or the likes.


It might be worth a try, for you to get the meds and treat her for Coccidiosis.


'Something' anyway, is bothering her Intestines it seems, and it might take a number of experiments to resolve it.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

nikku-chan said:


> Hey! I was reading the thread about how everyone first got into pigeons, and did a search for Bison Studios... You make pottery tools!
> 
> That's funny. I'm a potter. hehe. They look awesome. Even as objects by themselves. I love the handles (I have a handle fetish).
> 
> Do you make things out of clay, too, or just the tools?


Hi nikku, 



How cool you are a Potter!


Yes, I make Pottery Tools.

My situation here is a large messy badly lit Workshop, and, the small living quarters or 'Aviary' where I sleep and have my little Office and so on.


My 'Web-Site' totaly sucks, but was a kind gesture, made as a 'rough draft' by a friend, three years ago or four, based on a ten year old Catalogue.


So, it is woefully behind and incomplete, and I have been wanting to lean to revise and improve it but have not had room in my head...as well as that between making Tools, and Bird-things, and the rest of Life, it has been very hard to set aside time to learn to work on it.

I just got the 30 day free trial for 'Dreamweaver' and m-a-y-b-e, finally, I can start getting somewhere with it.


More Tools to see at -

http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5507382


I joined 'ETSY' as a light hearted gesture three weeks ago, and have sold I think ten Tools so far on it...which I had not expected TO do, at all.


I need to add some more exemplars to my little 'shop/listings' there too.


I was making Pots for some years in the mid 1980s, and that led to making the Tools, since I realised instantly that there were no 'good' Tools for Potters. And y histoy is in Cabinetmaking and other technical puttering which tends to be Tool related, so I had a lot of Histoy with Old Tools and with making Tools for different purposes to get things done.

Just been too busy since to be making any Pots, but after I move to some new surrounds I hope to resume.


So, what sort of Pots do you make?



Best wishes!

Phil
l v


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## nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

That's good news then. I hope it is just what you say. It seems a tiny worse today, like she is holding it off the ground slightly at practically every non-walking second. It's difficult, as the tiles and wooden floors in my house don't help to give her a soft ground, but she is so active, if i put a towel under her, she will have jumped off it within seconds.

Her poos, now, generally nice ones, but in a lime green puddle of water. 

i'll look about trying to get some Coccidiosis medicine.

I make all kinds of pots. I'm a student so i basically make what i'm told, and don't have much time to make anything else! But, i particularly like porcelain, and stoneware, and reduction firings. I've made a few teapots, and neti-pots, some sculptural pieces, and ALOT of cups and bowls...

I guess i prefer to make cups and bowls. And things with alternative kinds of handles. I don't like loopy traditional handles. I like solid handles. Like you might see on ramekins.. but smaller/shorter.

Yeah, there aren't any nice tools in adelaide either. We tend to make ours out of watch springs, which works out quite nicely for the poor student.

Your tools are so beautiful in photos. I think if you got that website up, you would sell SO many more! Have you tried ebay as well? And, have you approached potters shops to stock your tools? surely you'd get alot of sales that way. But i guess they'd want a comission.

What kinds of things were you making in the 80s?


----------



## Pidgey

nikku-chan said:


> Her poos, now, generally nice ones, but in a lime green puddle of water.
> 
> i'll look about trying to get some Coccidiosis medicine.


Can you get us a picture of one of those lime green puddles of water?

Pidgey


----------



## nikku-chan

She's actually stopped doing lime green poos...my camera is charging at the moment..i;ll take a pic of a dried up puddle when it's done.

She's been doing wonderful poos! (for her)
Some look completely normal, and one looks a pale forest coloured greenish, a little slimy, but looks far healthier than her previous poos.

I've mixed up popcorn, milo, 3 kinds of millet, 2-3 kinds of peas, rape seed, canary seed, some kind of oat seed, white safflower and sunflower seeds. She seems to love corn best, but she also likes the millet ALOT, and the safflower.

I've also been giving her endive and a tiny bit of dried cranberries (incase it is a kidney problem)

She seems to be far healthier poo-wise! Yesterday her leg was quite bad, but it doesn't seem any worse today.

Her new favourite place is on top of the door frame!

She is so lovely and clever.
Today, she was pecking at my leg hairs. I think she was trying to tell me to shave.

However, she is the one growing a beard! Is that normal? she has some feather stumps under her chin, and then closer to the tip of her beak, underneath, there is a little cluster of what i presume is feather stumps...it kinda looks like tiny baby tenticles. It is hilarous!

If her leg doesn't heal, i'm going to keep her. I'll get whatever equipment i need. I love her. I don't think anyone would take as good care of her as i would. Especially since she's a feral.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku,


Soungs really good!


That is a great Seed medley, and the Endive and Dried Cranberrys are excellent ( just make sure there are no 'Sulfites' in any of the dried Fruits or Berrys you elect for her...) 

Dried Cherrys, Goji-Berrys, Elder Berrys, and others also are excellent...though some of these one has to mince up into little bites since they are larger.



I forget...Has she been on the famous "ACV-Water" then?


Her 'off' poops could be a Yeast - dash - flora/fauna imbalance...and the ACV-Water might clear it up if it is...


Did we discuss this already?



Phil
l v


----------



## nikku-chan

yes, i have tried her with goji berries, but she isn't that keen. I'll try again though.

And yes, i have been putting 2 or 3 dropped of ACV in her water. can i do this everyday? some people say only twice a week, but will it hurt if it's more?

Sometimes when she eats alot of corn at once, she makes these tiny choking kind of noises. Not a cough or a sneeze...it could even be her voice breaking maybe?

I just went into the bathroom though and she was sitting in her nest and made a few of the same noises.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi nikku, 



Mix 3-1/2 to 4 Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water.


Or, for an Imperial Gallon, "4" Tablespoons with a little overage for good measure, would do I am sure.


This then would be her drinking Water for say, a Week...



Try it, and, if the poops clear up, then we can surmise that this has solved the perplexity.


Gently feel her Neck between your finger tip pads...to see if any Seeds are hanging up in there.

It is not uncomon for young Pigeons to be eating faster sometimes, than the Seeds will desend, and the Seeds then can sort of pile up in their esophagus...and, they are easy to gently massage 'down' if this occurs.


I have seen this many times, whether this is or is not the cause of her 'voice' sounds occuring when having eaten a bunch of Corn.


It is normal for them to 'squeak' or almost 'winnie' or 'honk' with enthusiasm when eating on their own at this age, too...


When being fed by their Parents, the Seeds are in a slurry of Water, and the Neck motions and swallowing reflexes are different, so they can really get a LOT down in no time that way, where, eating 'dry' Seeds on their own as neophyte Pecking-Birds, it is a little different, and for whatever reason, the Seeds do not always go all the way down right away...




Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

Hi Nikku-Chan,



> It looks like inflammatory debris (the equivalent of pus in us--birds make more solid-looking stuff like scrambled egg) and I expect it must have come from the cloaca or oviduct*….Well, I can guarantee that that plug didn't come through the intestines, it's from the cloaca or the oviduct].*


*

I hope that you don't mind but I was so worried about this baby that I sent the photo of the lump with a description of what was found inside it to Dr Colin Walker.

From his response I would say that Pidgey's guarantee was met  :




Thank you for your email. I am sorry for the late reply but I have been away. To me the material looks like a core of inflammatory material (ie the equivalant of dried bird pus) which has probably come away from the bursa of fabricius. This is an area of tonsil like tissue in the wall of the cloaca that shrivels up at puberty in pigeons. It is a common site of infection. In the abscence of testing affected birds are usually treated with an anticanker drug eg. 1/4 of a Flagyl tablet daily and an antibiotic eg. Baytril 4 drops once daily. Often however this material coming away is associated with the infection healing. 

With regards,
Dr. Colin Walker

Click to expand...

*


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Cynthia, 



Would you write him to ask if he feels my conjecture has any merit?


Cut-and-paste this missive, if you do?


That, if this was 'pooped' out, could it be a self-adhering, glutinous and impermiable, undigested mass of Gizzard Masticated 'Wheat'?


The old Vet who examined it beneath the Microscope did say he found it to be 'Undigested Seeds containing normal Bacteria', but, of course, he did not elaborate as to HOW such a thing could occur...or distinguish 'Seeds' from 'Masticated glutinous paste' and so on.

Obviously this was not 'Seeds' in the sense of Whole intact Seeds....but possibly the Vet did not see any need to make a finer distinction.

I would think that the old Vet, who seemed erudite enough on all else, would know the difference instantly, between 'Undigested Seeds', and, the exudae of 'inflamitory process' or the likes, since these would be very distinct under the Microscope, if not even quite distinct to the naked Eye.


And, having chewed Wheat myself, to know how elastic and glutinous it soon becomes, I believe that 'Wheat' IS a Grain which could occasion just such an odd 'poop-object'...and, 'nikku' had mentioned her Pigeon had been eating Wheat...but then demured from it thereafter.


We may recall that Pigeons do not seem to ever be willing to eat Wheat, or, to be willing to more than eat the odd Kernal while eating other Seed also...and, maybe, intuitively or by experience, 'this' is 'why'...

'nikku's Pigeon I believe was remembered as having pretty well JUST concentrated on eating Wheat and nothing but Wheat, prior to the object's appearance as a 'pooped-out' thing.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo

> Would you write him to ask if he feels my conjecture has any merit?


"Natural justice" required me to put both sides to him, so he had all the facts and theories.

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

Hey cynthia!
What do you mean, "i hope you don't mind"?!
Of course i don't mind! Thankyou so much for doing that!

She's been on flagyl, and i'm looking into getting some baytril at the moment.

Who knows..it could be the wheat, or it could be the pus. At least now i know more about each possibility and am treating her accordingly..If it were the wheat, then there is no possibility of it happening again, because she no longer gets wheat. If it were the pus, then i'm treating her for it now anyway.

The old vet that i went to, didn't really look at the lump properly, i feel, as he couldn't break the object up enough to make it thin enough to actually see any bacteria, apart from what bacteria would have been on the outside of the object, which wasn't much. When i looked through the microscope, it was just big purple lumps which no light would pass through. There was some bacteria around these lumps, but this could have just been the bacteria from the outside of the lump.

He showed me an unrelated plate of some plant material before he showed me the object slide, and they looked super different..but again, it could have been because the lump was too hard to smear thinly enough onto the plate.

The only time she ate wheat was when that was all that was left in her seed dish, and she was hungry. Judging, i would have guessed she ate about a teaspoon maybe..but it could have been more or less.

Either way, thankyou Phil, and thankyou Cynthia, for caring, and helping to work out what was/is wrong with my sweet little baby


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## Feefo

As long as she gets better that is all that matters, but it is helpful to have your photograph the information from doctor Walker to refer to in the future.

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

I got some baytril 25mg/ml

The vet said to give her 1.5ml

She weights 2.7 kg..which is quite bad, as that is what she weighed a week ago.

She hasn't put on any


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## nikku-chan

grr..i mean, she weighs 0.27 kg.

And the dose is 0.15mls twice daily


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## nikku-chan

which seems high...
according to the info in the resources forum, she should be getting about 4mg a day...as the dosage is 10-20 mg a day per kg, and she weighs 2.7 kg..

So based on 15mg/kg, that should be about 0.16 mls a day....but she's telling me 0.15 mls TWICE a day??

Even if i were to use 20mg/kg, that would still only be about 0.21 mls a day...

hrm.


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## TAWhatley

Assuming the bird weighs .27 kg .. that's 270 grams. The dose is 15 mg per kg of weight TWICE per day. The strength of what you have is probably 22.7 mg per cc and not 25 mg per cc (but could be .. it would be 22.7 here in the US, and I know it could be different in your location) .. anyway .. it's all going to be close enough .. 

I just checked the calculations and for a 270 gram bird the dose with 22.7 mg of the drug per cc would be 0.17 and the dose with 25 mg of the drug per cc would be 0.16 .. sounds to me like your vet has it right. You need to give what the vet said TWICE per day.

Terry


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## nikku-chan

hrm..okay.

Where did you get that information?
The thing i looked at said it was 10-20 mg PO at a dosing interval of 24 hours. 

It is a PDF, located here.. http://www.baytril.com/15/Other_Animals.htm


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## nikku-chan

And what i have is called "Baytril 25". It says 25mg/ml on the packet.
I'm in Australia, so things must be different over here.


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## nikku-chan

And, Dr walker has said 4 drops once daily..but he didn't specify what percentage of baytril was in the solution he was referring to.

I assume it could be the 22.5mg solution. If it were, I just tested, and the 0.15 mls equals 6 drops...

SO MUCH CONFLICTING INFORMATION BRAIN GOING TO EXPLODE!


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## John_D

The Baytril we often have is from the Australian Pigeon Co and has the instruction to give '4 drops'.

The actual measured quantity we give is 0.2 milliliters once per day.

John


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## nikku-chan

Hey john, thanks for clarifying.
And what is the mg/ml of that particular product?
I can't seem to access that info on the auspigeonco website. It says i need to be a vet or a client to access any medication info.

Thanks!


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## John_D

Well, to me it's just a '2.5% solution' if that translates into mg/ml

I'll check if Cynthia knows the actual answer - the calculations give me a mental block

John


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## Pidgey

1 ml=1000 mg, assuming a specific gravity of 1.0.

Therefore, 1000 * 0.025 (which is the same thing as 2.5%)=25 milligrams per milliliter.

Pidgey


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## John_D

Yeah, Pidgey. Glad your brain cells are still functioning 

John


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## Pidgey

At least those particular ones still are. There's a lot more of them that I can no longer vouch for.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

thanks guys!
since some people say to give .15ml twice, dr walker said to give 4 drops, i'll give .15ml once a day, which is 6 drops.


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## Feefo

That should be fine, Nikku-Chan. Somewhere in the Baytril site it explains why one dose a day is sufficient, but they keep changing the site format! 

My very first rescue was a baby feral pigeon very like Pecky. I remember the feeling I had of my heart melting the first time she looked me straight in the eye and waggled her wings for food.

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

awesome thanks 
Yes, she has everyone charmed.
She still flaps her little wings and squeaks when she;s eating her seeds.

She took a shower with my boyfriend today!

She's doing alot better, in that her poos are way better looking. Most of the time they're great normal poos, she still sometimes does the clear water puddles with only a few green mouse poo bits, but generally they're great.

All she seems to want is corn and safflower seeds..and since she hadn't put on any weight for a week last time i had her weighed, i;m scared to starve her of these seeds in case she doesn't eat anything. She sometimes eats milo when i hold it in my hand and there's no corn or safflower, but she basically just wont eat if i don't give her what she wants.

Maybe she knows she's thin, and is trying to store up fat. Should i keep giving her the corn and safflower to help her put on the weight until she's heavier? I don't know if it's normal, but i can really feel her breast bone..it's really bony.

When she was littler, before she got sick, she loved peas more than anything else..but i haven't seen her eat one for ages. She pecks them all out of her dish and throws them on the floor.

Also, she shakes quite alot. I've noticed she does shake when she;s nervous, but even when she shouldn't be/isnt nervous, she shakes. I thought it was cold and gave her a warm bottle to sit on/snuggle into, but she doesn't want it. I always find her sitting ontop of the cold hard benchtop. It's summer in Aus, about 25-30C lately. So it musn't be cold. I shouldn't be worried should i?

She seems healthy in every other respect. She's really inquisitive. She sits ontop of the shower curtain rail and spies on us showering  And her favourite game is "fly onto the shoulder, fly off of the shoulder, and repeat again and again".


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## Pidgey

What does she weigh?

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

She weighed .27 kg on wednesday...we weighed her at the vet on the cat scales, so the scales was only accurate to to .01 of a kilo.
The week before that, she weighed .273 kg on a more accurate scale.

I can get my mums scales tomorrow to weigh her again.
She feels a bit heavier to me now, but it could just be a placebo because she appears healthier to me.

She's about 38 days old now.


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## nikku-chan

I am strongly considering building an outdoor enclosure for her to keep her, and getting a mate for her once ive learnt what sex she is.

Some people have said that keeping a pair in a bunny hutch is okay..but i;d like to build something where she can actually fly around. What would the ideal dimensions be for a flight pen? I know it should be wide and deep, not so much high. I think it;s really cruel to keep birds in cages, especially when they can't even fly around, so i;d like to build something luxurious.

I have heard also that pigeons like to select their own mates. Does this mean that even if i do get her a suitor, she might not want him?

If i were to release her, at 45-50 days as Phil has said, i really don't think she would be ready as she hasn't been socialised, and she is still recovering from a mystery illness, and therefore is quite skinny. 

Apart from this, i love her, and i don't want her to go. I want her to be safe. I think it;s really sad that wild pigeons only live for 3-5 years, when otherwise, they can live for 15. 

The main thing an animal wants is a safe place to live and play, food and water, and companionship, and i think i can provide all of these things.

I could let her into the house for about an hour a day for exercise, but ideally i;d like to build her a flight pen big enough for her to be able to exercise at all times.

At what age will she display signs of her gender, and at what age should i think about getting a mate, before she adopts one of us as her mate? She seems to like to sit on my boyfriend especially, so maybe she is a girl, but it could also be that he isn't the one sticking tablets and squirting medicine into her every morning.

Also, what other species can she mate with, if i can't find a feral? Which would be the best breed to get, to suit her living conditions?

Thanks!


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## Feefo

Hi Nikku-Chan,

If Pecky is restricting what she is prepared to eat then she will benefit from additional vitamins.

My first rescue was Feefo, as she couldn't be released I built an aviary for her. I ordered one that was 5 foot long and three foot wide and 6 foot tall, even before it arrived I reaksied that it was too small and had to add another three feet...that was also too small and had to be extended, now it runs the whole length of the garden. I was told that long and thin is best, because it gives them a good distance to fly, but if I could I would have it wider. I have a shelter at one end and a shed with windows at the other because that provides safety and ventilation ( windows, wooden walls, floor have been lined with aviary wire to keep predators out) . It is only necessary to have one sleeping nesting area, I have two because it was the only way to extend. If you intend to provide an aviary make it as large as you can afford and can accommodate, and as seceure as possible...and leave room for expansion should your circumstances change.

Where there is a choice, pigeons will choose their own mate. If there is no choice they tend to pair up with whoever is available. Keeping the species going is what pigeons live for, I had three widowers in my aviary during the summer, one had a new mate within a week. The two others lured mates away from two other cocks that happened to have their nests close by.

There should be no difficulty finding a mate of the same species for Pecky. If there are "fanciers" in your area they will have birds that have proved to be unsuitable for racing or breeding and may let you have one as a companion or mate for Pecky. When she is a little older a fancier might be able to identify her gender for you as well. Also the so called "white doves" are white pigeons , in the UK they are often advertised in the papers and are inexpensive.


Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

Thanks cynthia!
Sounds like your birds have an amazing place to live!

I just found a bit of mucous with some red sticky blood in it on the floor...

I thought Pecky was getting better 

Do you think this was vomited up? It doesn't have any "poo" kind of characteristics.

I guess i'll treat her for cocciodosis (or however you spell it) tomorrow.


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## nikku-chan

Here is an update on sweet little Pecky.

She still does poos that arent right, but to me, she seems healthy apart from this..she has so much energy..so i don't know. She was thin before when she was sick, but do you think she is still thin or a good size? She has definitely put on quite a bit of weight. She still only eats safflower, and a little corn and milo if she's really hungry.

I would say she only eats about 1.5 tablespoons a day..which i know is too little. I've been leaving her food out all day for her, because otherwise i don't think she would get enough in.

She is getting a super big aviary on saturday...about 11x4.5 feet.

anyway, here are the pics! Is the bumpy bit between her chest and head normal?

I am sure that she is a girl. She has to be! What do you think? Her eyes are round, her head looks quite flat..but her toes are different lengths and she sticks her nose right into the water when she drinks..and gulps.


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## nikku-chan




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## Pidgey

The "bump" is just the forward curvature of the cervical vertebrae (neck bones) and musculature. Normally, it would appear less prominent due to their being more baggage in the crop, which lies between that bump and the forward portion of the keel (chestbone).

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

Ahh, good.
So she isn't underweight?

And if you had to guess, would you say boy or girl?


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## Pidgey

Well, their feathers can hide a multitude of problems. I'd tend to say that she's not underweight, based on the next-to-last picture (full front view) that seems to show that the breast muscles are filled out pretty well.

Put a mirror in front of Pecky and see if she talks to it, dances in front of it or just looks at it.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

HAHAHA!

She runs away from it, and straight to me, shaking.

She is SO scared of it!

She barely makes any noise these days either..she only squeaks occasionally when she's pecking, or nuzzling me.


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## Pidgey

It'll be a better test a few months from now. The oldest piece of wisdom about them (pigeons) is that you can definitely tell they're female if an egg drops out the back end.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan

hehe. As soon as she lays an egg, i'll get her a husband 

I rang fauna rescue in my area, and they said feral pigeons (and spotted turtle doves even more so) have a hard time being placed, and they'll ring me when one comes in. These spotted doves are significantly smaller.

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?...firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N

I wonder, if she is a girl, if i could get her one as a husband.
How cute their babies would be!

But i guess it wouldn't be ideal.


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## Feefo

She is beautiful, she certainly looks female, not just because of the sloping head but because of her gentle eyes. Did you find the thread that said you can tell a male from a female by looking at the toes? I *think* it said that the two outside toes of a female are of the same lenth, so they look even on your finger, but a male's are uneven.

The picture of her preening her tail is so beutiful!

Racing pigeons eat roughly 1/10 of their weight a day, the range can be 20 - 100 grams (Dr Colin Walker - The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health and Management)

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

Yes i know, she is gorgeous 

I agree. Her eyes are so sweet and gentle and loving. If i rub the side of her beak or under her eye, she goes really quiet, and makes sleepy eyes at me, sometimes even closing them completely and napping. 

I tried testing with the toes, but it's really hard to get them both to sit beside her middle toe. It seemed to me that they weren't even, but i'll have to check with a ruler to be super sure.

From what i've read, molting should happen soon. I've found 3 or 4 big feathers from her this last week or so. will she lose ALL her feathers? I read that a baby's colourings can change completely with the first molt. So..could she get lighter or darker, or even change colour with the molt? She seems to have gotten lighter from when she was a baby already.

The pigeon population in my date palm seems to be growing! There are straight black pigeons, very light grey, black and white, and fawn coloured pigeons.  It's cute to hear their babies all the time.


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## TerriB

Yeah, I love it when they go all mellow for ear and head scratches. 

Molting seems to occur in sections, for example front of belly or neck and back of head, etc.. That way the protein drain on the bird isn't too overwhelming at any time. The color change that I've seen is more a matter of degree, so a darker color or brighter markings. It will be interesting to see what develops!


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## nikku-chan

Yes i can't wait!
Under her wings, she has the most beautiful colour. Like the softest silvery blue grey i have ever seen. And on her chest, at the very tips of all her feathers, is a dull red colour. It looks like lots of tiny little Japanese fans, with red borders.

So she should be eating more protein...i know peas have protein, but she won't touch them. She's only eating milo and safflower at the moment..corn very occasionally. Any other seed that might have protein?


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## TerriB

The variations of color on any one bird can be amazing. Can you imagine if they were written up in the fashion columns? 

The pigeon feed I use is 16% protein. Milo and corn are only about 9% protein. Peas are the main thing I use to raise protein. Hopefully someone else will know of another high protein food.

For glossy feathers, you also want to include an oil source, such as safflower, hemp, or very lightly oiled seeds.


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## nikku-chan

Heh, yes, it all seems very complicated. Imagine if we could be checkered, or pied!

Well, she is a huge fan of safflower.

Maybe i could feed her a little cheese or egg if she still refuses the peas in a few days.


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## Feefo

Safflower is high in protein but also high in fat.

This is what the moulting mix that I use (Bamford's Top Flight) contains:

Wheat, Barley, Maples, White Peas, Plate Maize, Small French Maize, Blue Peas, Tares, Red Dari, White Dari, Safflower, Popcorn Maize, Linseed, Naked Oats, Paddy Rice, Small Sunflower.

There is a booklet called "Pigeon - A complete Pet Owner's Manual" by Matthew Vriends that has a lot of information on feeding including the protein and fat content of different grains.

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

hmm..that sounds very good!

But the problem is that she won't eat anything apart from safflower and milo and like, 4 pieces of popcorn a day.

She won't eat red or green peas (i don't know the proper names), or wheat, or barley, or sunflower. Or canola, or canary seed, or any type of millet. Or lentils. She rarely eats her greens either. She eats about one tiny diamond and then doesn't want any more. She doesn't like cranberries or goji berries either. She is SO FUSSY!

Most of the time, to make sure she is eating enough (about 30g a day, although i doubt she'd actually be getting that much) I have to hand-feed her, and constantly swish the seeds around with my thumb to capture her interest. She likes to pick them up and throw them around the room. And she especially likes to "sort" through the seeds in my hand with her beak, whacking half of the seeds over to the other side of the room in one go. It's like trying to feed a toddler!

At least i know the safflower has protein...I thought it was just all fat. Maybe this is why she's so keen on it. Because she knows it's good for her feathers, and because when she was thinner, she needed the fat.

Hopefully once she's more settled she'll start to try new things

Oh, and i recently borrowed that book from the library. Thanks for reminding me to read it! I forgot all about it!


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## Feefo

That is the problem with pigeons, you can offer them a good diet but that doesn't mean they will eat it. Goji berries and cranberries aren't part of a feral pigeon's normal diet...nor is lettuce, my pigeons love it but I am not certain whether they all eat some. It seems to be the hens that go for it.

That swishing through the seeds is amazing, our Poppet is a tiny dove, but with one quick swipe of her beak she can send seeds flying everywhere.

I am glad you have access to that book! Although it sounds a bit complicated you might be able to collect the ingredients and mix them together in small amounts...when I had my first rescue baby I had to buy a 20kg sack of ready mixed food for her...and then worried that it might have become damp when I misted her, so I had to replace it! (First time pigeon mothers can get a bit over anxious).

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

yep, i'll go the the grain store tomorrow and see what seeds they have from that mix.

That book is very helpful!

Hehe..i bought a 5kg bag of grit when i first found her...and that was when i was still sure i would be releasing her..


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## nikku-chan

I've noticed lately, Pecky seems to puff the feathers up just above her nose. What does this mean? Only the feathers above her nose. the rest are sleek.

I originally saw her do it, and then she sneezed, and i figured out someone had lit incense which was getting to her.

I removed her from the room, but ever since, she has been doing it (puffing the nose feathers, not sneezing)...unless of course, the sneeze wasn't related to the puffed nose feathers at all...it probably wasn't.

It's been a few days. She doesn't do it ALL the time, but she does it A LOT.

It looks pretty funny...


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## nikku-chan

Pecky's poos are still not right. Still sometimes watery and have a green stain around them.

I've heard you guys talk alot about probiotics...but i can't find anywhere that says what to do with them.

I have some human probiotics in my fridge...do u just dump a capsule into some spring water? 

Should i add some garlic in the water before or after i give them? I'm thinking before to kill off any bacteria that is bad, then a few days later give the probiotics? Is this right?

please let me know..i won't do anything until i actually know what to do.

Or i could wrap some of the powder in a little piece of lettuce or spinach and give it like a pill?


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## Reti

You can alternate a day of probiotics, then garlic, then ACV and start all over again. Or you can give the probiotics the way you mentioned, down her throat and add garlic in the water.

Reti


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## TerriB

The amount of probiotic would be about a gram (raisin-sized amount) per liter of water. If the gut bacteria have been destroyed, it may take 3-5 days of probiotics to re-establish healthy flora.


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## nikku-chan

awesome it's in the making!

Thanks!


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## nikku-chan

Pecky has feather mites..

The spray i got for her says to hold 40 cm away from her and spray.

Do i just spray once? how many times do you spray your birds when treating them?

what about under the wings and underbody etc?


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## Reti

I spray once but cover the whole body, not the head. I cover the head with my hand. Don't forget the belly. She should get rid of all the mites after that.

Reti


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## nikku-chan

awesome thanks reti


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## nikku-chan

I'm getting ready to move Pecky into her aviary.

It's really hot outside for the nest week though...up to 103 F (39C)
Is this okay for her? She is used to being in the bathroom. Can i still keep her in the aviary if it is 103?

How do pigeons tolerate hot weather? What is the point where i need to bring her inside? It can get up to 108F (42C) here sometimes.

Also, is there any special way i can introduce her to her aviary and outside life without stressing her out too much? She is very attached to me, she tries to follow me everywhere i go, and is constantly flying onto the bathroom door to prevent me from leaving her.


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## Matt D.

Here it usually peeks at 118F or so every summer, and If your birds have water and aren't flying around at a hundred miles an hour; they'll be just fine. If you don't make her fly she won't, so she can stay cool.


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## nikku-chan

WOW! That is HOT!

I thought i had it bad.

So she'll be fine, even though she isn't used to that kind of heat at all?

My other birds usually look as though they're dying when it's hot. I have a cockatiel and a budgie. They open their mouths, and wings, and pant.


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## Pidgey

nikku-chan said:


> I'm getting ready to move Pecky into her aviary.
> 
> It's really hot outside for the nest week though...up to 103 F (39C)
> Is this okay for her? She is used to being in the bathroom. Can i still keep her in the aviary if it is 103?
> 
> How do pigeons tolerate hot weather? What is the point where i need to bring her inside? It can get up to 108F (42C) here sometimes.
> 
> Also, is there any special way i can introduce her to her aviary and outside life without stressing her out too much? She is very attached to me, she tries to follow me everywhere i go, and is constantly flying onto the bathroom door to prevent me from leaving her.


Oddly enough, it's their feathers that help them stay cool. What you have to make sure of is that they've got plenty of water since they use it for cooling like a dog panting. Evaporation of water carries an immense amount of heat energy away so if you have a "dry heat", they actually cool pretty well as long as they pant. My birds if given the chance to fly in 105 degree F heat will certainly do it for fun although not as much as when it's cooler to be sure. In the aviary, of course, they can't get a good cruise going anyhow so it's not an issue. If the humidity gets real high, though, it's a lot tougher for them to stay comfortable, just like it is with us.

Pidgey


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## quickrymer

*nikki chan*

I think you are great to be so enthusiastic about saving the life of this bird
Great stuff and good work
Ken


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## nikku-chan

Hey,
thanks heaps, Ken.

i found another one today....


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