# ferral baby with severe head tilt



## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

We have a baby, almost fully feathered that fell in our courtyard about 48 hours ago. At first it seemed to just have a broken lower jaw and the tip of its lower beak bends down at a 90* angle when I tried to open it to examine it and two small scapes on the edge of the lower beak and the upper,and the left side of the lower beak was/is swollen making a gap. I was unable to feed it with the syringe/baloon method as it could not gape to eat. So I have been giving it water with a syringe drop by drop into the gap, and doing Phil's "seed pop" and he has been doing ok except that after the first 24 hours his left eye began swelling until he is unable to open it at all, and I thought it was odd that he would turn his head to the right,away from me when I was feeding so that the closed eye was facing me. I thought the swelling must be from the broken or dislocated jaw injury (and a high fall), but it is odd to me that the swelling began 24 hours after the fall.....
But now about 48 hours into this, he has a severe head tilt and can't right himself. Thrashing about and getting stuck. He holds his head completely upside down, even if I turn him on his back. I have wrapped him burrito style for the moment to keep him from injuring himself further. I have also given him an orni-tab yesterday as a preventative. It is the only antibiotic, I have on hand at the moment that is still in date. Is this neurological problem hopeless? I'm very scared for him, but I don't want to prolong his suffering by continuing to give him food and water if there is nothing I can do in the end. He hasn't peeped at me at all today. Thanks, Melissa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Poor little baby, what a bad start to life he has had.

Is there a vet you can take him to? If his neurological problems and the swelling were caused by the fall then a vet is the best person to advise you on the prognosis.

In the meantime keep him quiet and warm.

Cynthia


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*no decent vets to be found here.*

Unfortunately the vets here in Saudi don't seem to know much. I have been given inappropriate meds and advice too many times. Although if anyone knows what might help I can get and administer meds. I can give injections no problem. I just don't know what to give/do. I am wondering if dexamethasone would be helpful? He really doesn't look like he will make it at this point. But if there is any hope with nursing care, I am willing to try. Thanks, Melissa


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear the baby fell and is not doing very well.

I can imagine how frustrating this is for you, not having the option of finding a good avian vet.

I can recommend Arnica Montana, a homeopathic which works very well with head trauma and gets swelling down quick. You might try that if you can find it there.

Try to keep the head a little supported, if possible without hurting him and keep him warm as mentioned in subdued light also.


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

My internet is giving me fits! I'll try to reply again....
He weighs a little over 200 grams. We have GNC here, but they have a limited selection. If I can get Arnica Montana, how much do I give/how often? Also I found a thread about not using heat in head trauma, I D/C'ed the hot water bottle. The room is warm, but should I put the hot water bottle back? Thanks, M


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I think the warmth of a towel will be fine, how hot is it inside? Yes, you are right, don't use artificial heat for head trauma.

You can crush two tablets and administer with a tiny bit of water, if you don't think you can get the tablets down, although they are small. Get the 30 X. Give twice a day.

I doubt that GNC has it, but you can certainly try.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

More than likely, the head tilt is from all the swelling and inflammation too near the inner ear, which is where a lot of traumatically-induced neurological symptoms like you're describing comes from. That's especially tricky water to tread. You'd want a anti-inflammatory like Metacam (you can google that but I'd be surprised if you could find it over there--vet only, and a well-stocked one at that), a corticosteroid like Prednisolone (gotta' be real careful there, too). According to the book, that kind of treatment needs to be initiated pretty quickly because it doesn't seem to do much good after 48 hours. The things to do would have been keeping the bird in a fairly cool (and dark) environment as warming the patient up can increase intracranial vasodilation and make it a lot worse.

The symptoms that you've stated are pretty classic, complete with the onset of neurological symptoms coming on later. I guess you should keep him in the cool and wait and see. They can recover, although the chances start falling if no improvements are seen after 48 hours.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, there is another mention of using a diruetic like Mannitol to help get rid of some of the swelling.

The dosage on the Prednisolone is 0.5 to 1 milligram per kilogram of bird just once as an anti-inflammatory, given IntraMuscular (IM) or in an IV.

The dose for the Mannitol is 0.5 milligrams per kilogram only as an IV and very slowly at that.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks so much Pidgey, Treesa, and Cynthia. I guess it doesn't look very good for him. But I will keep trying. I'm sure the vet close to me won't have the Metacam. His entire pharmacy fills the top of a mini fridge, and two shelves inside it. There are some bigger farm vet suppiers, but too far away to get to today. I can get pred, but I suppose its too late for that now. I am very sad. I just don't have enough knowledge. I'll let you know what happens. You are all always so helpful.
Gratefully, Melissa


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Melissa,

Thanks for trying to help this little one.

Another thought, is there any cats around or other animals that could have injured this bird after it fell?

Good luck with him, all the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I'd give the Pred a try (Prednisolone is the one the dosage info is for) as well as the cool and dark. What you're most worried about is that permanent damage has occurred in the brain. You don't know, so give it a try.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

I'll try to go get some pred. If the vet doesn't have it, can I give it orally? I can get that easily at the pharmacy. It would be terrible to try to divide a pill into that small of a dose though. I've moved him to a cooler room now. He seemed really good 24 hours ago. I'm so frustrated. 
Ron-there are lots of ferral cats about, but I don't think there where any in our courtyard. He doesn't seem to have any punctures etc.
Thanks, M


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Melissa, the reason I ask is that I have found a number of "drop outs" over the years and have never encountered any with injuries to their head as you describe, I am sure it's possible, but this have been my experience though. If there are feral cats about, it may be worthwhile to see in the pharmacy has some Augmentin or Amoxicillin to treat for infection.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Any idea how far it might have fallen and what it might have smacked? Bare concrete, a rock, gravel... ?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Melissasue

Just wanted you to know it is so good to hear from you again. I have missed seeing you on the forum and hoped all was well with you. I see you are still rescuing birds. Do you still have your pigeons?


You have been given great advice. We have a songbird presently with head trauma and the vet told us to keep it in a dark room with no noise. She also gave it a steroid shot. Your baby must have fallen head first to get this type injury. Like Ron, I have never had that happen with a drop out. Most of ours that fall from a high bridge usually land on their rump.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I didn't know that pigeons with head trauma had to be kept cool, I thought that it was just the head and that was through the application of cold compress. The infomation on dogs advises the owner to keep the dog warm: _While you are waiting for your dog to be examined, keep him warm, hold his head elevated or level with the rest of the body and minimize pressure on his neck, head or back._ It just goes to show how much you can learn on this forum.

The information on this site might be useful even though it is specifically for dogs:

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/head-trauma-in-dogs/page1.aspx

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In the Big Book, it didn't say anything about keeping the bird really cold--just to keep them away from heat. I expect that means that when you're in Saudi, it'd be better in the air-conditioned house rather than outside.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, you know how things can get confusing sometimes....our vet told us to keep the junco on a heating pad which I did until I read on the forum not to. I have not mentioned this until now because I want to get more info from the vet on it so I'll let you know what I find out.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I didn't know that pigeons with head trauma had to be kept cool, I thought that it was just the head and that was through the application of cold compress. The infomation on dogs advises the owner to keep the dog warm: _While you are waiting for your dog to be examined, keep him warm, hold his head elevated or level with the rest of the body and minimize pressure on his neck, head or back._ It just goes to show how much you can learn on this forum.
> 
> The information on this site might be useful even though it is specifically for dogs:
> 
> ...




It may be that what they are referring to is not applying direct heat to the traumatized area, although I've always thought cold was supposed to be applied to the specific traumatized area while keeping the overall body warm.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jazaroo said:


> Melissa, the reason I ask is that I have found a number of "drop outs" over the years and have never encountered any with injuries to their head as you describe, I am sure it's possible, but this have been my experience though. If there are feral cats about, it may be worthwhile to see in the pharmacy has some Augmentin or Amoxicillin to treat for infection.
> 
> Ron


Ron, I've found them fallen from concrete onto concrete and not seen the kinds
of injuries described here. Also, we call it 'fallen', but many times they are
pushed due to a perceived illness by the parents. Getting the bird on an antibiotic that also covers predator related injuries is a good idea.

fp


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

It's hard to say. I thought it had fallen beak first causing the abrasion on the top of the beak and also bending the tip of the bottom beak backwards, but being young and flexible it bent rather than broke,and at the same time pushed the mandible back into the face, causing the dislocation or fracture. The skin is intact, only the bone sticks out sightly. I tried to push it back into place, but it won't stay. Our courtyard is terrazo, like concrete. There could have been a cat, I couldn't say for sure, but I haven't found any other wounds. He may have fallen from a second or third story window. I would suspect third because the second floor windows where we found him are not safe from cats. There are ledges and high walls that the cats jump on to get up there. The other possibility I hate to imagine is the neighbors have been having some work done upstairs and the workers might have thrown it down.........
I gave an orni-tab yesterday and was going to give another today, but if you reccomend another antibiotic I will try to pick it up. The Augmentin and amoxi are easy. I think I even have some pediatric augmentin on hand.
What dose and how often should I give it, and also can I give prednisolone by mouth(same dose?). I might be able to get a pediatric liquid form. I am going to walk out in a little while and get a taxi tothe pharmacy (still not allowed to drive here! rrrrrr!). I'll check back soon for any reply. 
Pidgey, I still can't open the formulary pages you sent me, maybe I didn't save them correctly or something. I made a seperate folder on my email and moved them there. But when I try to open them it says page cannot be displayed.
Thanks, M


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

I also wondered if I should get some eye drops. The eye that is closed doesn't look infected, but..??.. I have some tobramycin drops on hand. It is so hard to go anywhere, I am just trying to think of anything else I might need to get before I leave.
Thanks, M


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know what to say on the Prednisolone. Oral usage is not in my formulary and wouldn't generally be for trauma, I'd expect.

You could give a maximum 125 mg/kg, PO, TID on the Augmentin but BID is more than good enough when you're dealing with something that's only a possibility.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Next time on the formulary, you oughta' save it to your hard drive. I seem to remember the censorship around there was kinda' bad anyhow.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The rationale for keeping a bird/animal/human cool (not cold, but comfortably cool)after head trauma is to minimize the edema in the brain. All injuries result in edema, some more, some less. Edema in the brain results most likely in death. Also, heat causes vasoldilation and that is another thing you don't want to do to the brain when already compromised.
Mannitol is an osmotic diuretic and decreases the edema, prednison is also good. Keeping the head elevated and as little stimulation as possible.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

melissasue1968 said:


> *I am wondering if dexamethasone would be helpful? *
> Thanks, Melissa





melissasue1968 said:


> *He weighs a little over 200 grams.*
> Thanks, M


Hi Melissa,
Our local rehabber uses Dexamethasone for 'suspected' trauma related head injuries to help reduce any swelling.

The Prednisone is to be used for a consecutive number of days, decreasing the dose until completed, where the Dex is only to be used once, 'possibly' twice.

I don't know the dosage/body weight ratio. Others, familiar with using it can assist you, if need be, if you decide to go that route.

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Here are the dosages for Prednisolone from the IVIS site, they are in mg per Kg:

Prednisolone Avian 2mg PO BID E [1431] May predispose to mycotic infection 
Prednisolone Avian 6.7mg PO NL E [1526] Use decreasing dosage for long-term therapy 
Prednisolone Psittacine 2mg PO BID E [1240] Also analgesic 
Prednisolone Raptor 0.5-1mg IM Once E [1400] - 
Prednisolone Raptor 2-4mg IM-IV Once E [1400] For shock

If you do decide to use Prednisolone, please check your math a few times and be quite careful with separating/drawing out a dose, this is a drug that you should be very precise with.

Ron


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

OK. I'm going to go start the Augmentin and then try to locate a taxi. 
Pidgey: I had actually saved it page by page to the computer when you sent it, but we kept getting viruses back then and my husband had the hard drive wiped clean. When we got back up I thought it would be safe in cyberspace limbo, and I think it may still be there, but the internet may be having problems right now because I can't seem to open any of my folders at the moment. If I get them to open I'm going to print them. Should have done that to begin with.
"Valient" as my kids have dubbed him seems to be getting weaker. He ate well--at least he swallowed what I popped and dripped into his mouth. So we are still hoping and praying for him. Sometimes I wonder if what I am doing is a good thing or just torturing the poor little guy by forcing him to eat and drink. Like someone mentioned, sometimes they are kicked out of the nest for a reason. I hope I am doing the right thing, it seems like the odds are against him.
Thanks so much everyone. Melissa


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks for your research Ron. Looks like I should go with the 2mg/kg po bid, if I can't get the injectable. He's still a little over 200gm. so he should have about 0.4 mg, right? Hopefully they will have a liquid! Sorry I am such a bother asking about so many different ways to treat, but I know from experience here, it is better to have a few options. Invariably the 
first/2nd choice is not available.
Gratefully, Melissa


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Melissa,

Your math is good .40mg BID for his weight is correct. I just wanted to add that you will really not know until you give him a chance if treating is the right decision. These little guys sometimes surprise us and they do have remarkable recuperative powers many times.

Good luck with him, all the best,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Melissa, the formulary that is in the Clinical Avian Medicine medical book is available online through IVIS. It's a free membership and it only takes a minute:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=185102&postcount=1

For Augmentin, I believe that you are supposed to half the dose for a squab,
this is based on information from Cynthia (Cyro51):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=73534&postcount=3

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

melissasue1968 said:


> We have a baby, almost fully feathered that fell in our courtyard about 48 hours ago. At first it seemed to just have a broken lower jaw and the tip of its lower beak bends down at a 90* angle when I tried to open it to examine it and two small scapes on the edge of the lower beak and the upper,and the left side of the lower beak was/is swollen making a gap. I was unable to feed it with the syringe/baloon method as it could not gape to eat. So I have been giving it water with a syringe drop by drop into the gap, and doing Phil's "seed pop" and he has been doing ok except that after the first 24 hours his left eye began swelling until he is unable to open it at all, and I thought it was odd that he would turn his head to the right,away from me when I was feeding so that the closed eye was facing me. I thought the swelling must be from the broken or dislocated jaw injury (and a high fall), but it is odd to me that the swelling began 24 hours after the fall.....
> But now about 48 hours into this, he has a severe head tilt and can't right himself. Thrashing about and getting stuck. He holds his head completely upside down, even if I turn him on his back. I have wrapped him burrito style for the moment to keep him from injuring himself further. I have also given him an orni-tab yesterday as a preventative. It is the only antibiotic, I have on hand at the moment that is still in date. Is this neurological problem hopeless? I'm very scared for him, but I don't want to prolong his suffering by continuing to give him food and water if there is nothing I can do in the end. He hasn't peeped at me at all today. Thanks, Melissa




Hi melissasue1968, all...


Please forgive me for replying when I have not read down from here...but I have only a few moments and the thread is already long.


The eye may have gotten scraped or otherwise injured and is possibly infected...so, for that, some Antibiotic 'Eye' Ointment would be in order, and if you can not get any, use 'Neosporin' and gently use Q-Tip ro 'roll' a squig onto the upper middle part of the swollen lids...do not drag the Q-tip with the squig on it, but 'roll' it so the squig is applied very gently.


Might be a Brain injury or bleeding inside the skull...

If the Mandible Beak is in fact dislocated, or Broken, will take a sensitive and experienced 'feel' to decide...consult some 'googles' as for seeing the structure of the Jaw of Pigeons, and see what you can figure out.

I do have a Pigeon Skull here, and I had posted some images on 'webshots'...if I can find it fast I will include the link below.

Make sure, as you are, to keep him so his Head is topmost, so no fluids from his Crop can get into his Trachia and suffocate him or give him a bacterial or other pnuemonia.

The neurological symptoms might just clear up over a few weeks or a month.


For now, the Jaw issue of course is important, seeing as there is not much one can do about the rest of it, other than Antibiotic Ointment for the Eye ( applied daily, ) keeping him safe from his own posture compromises, and, if his jaw is dislocated or broken, a diagnosis and remedial proceedure is needed to restore it.

Link to view of a Pigeon Skull, showing the Jaw -

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/469522890oHJDLd


As you can see, the Jaw, or Mandible Beak as I call it, actually 'hinges' wide and 'low' compared to where and how one might have imagined seeing our Birds in the flesh.

Study this, and see if you can determine whether it is a break, or a dislocation...and maybe, if we are all lucky, someone here who HAS set broken or dislocated Jaws of Pigeons, can offer some insight as to how one does it...as I have never done either.

Or, I did restore a dislocated Jaw once, as much by accident as method or technique, by gently moveing it out and testing how it might go back right...and it still makes me turn to mush thinking about it...it worked out fine, but I am weak kneed sometimes...


Sorry if this is redundant to previous posts, or neglects other important points other have made...I only had this moment or two to write...

Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Melissa, Phil and all,

I think the topic of using Neosporin in the eyes has come up before here, I'll
just pass on some of the information that I have read on the topic. Neosporin topical is not recommended for the eyes for one obvious reason, sterile ointments are recommended for the eyes because an infection could be introduced otherwise. This is also why one is never to touch the tip of the tube to the eye when administering, but rather run a bead into the lower eyelid and close it. The other interesting issue w/Neosporin topical in the eyes is that some of the common adverse reactions are developing a rash, swelling of the eyes, face, throat, tongue, etc. A quick google of Neosporin topical+applied in eyes, will yield link after link w/warnings to not use in the eyes.

From everything I've read, this is not an eye friendly product even though the druggist some time ago did tell Phil this. The other issue for human babies and I'm assuming that it would cross over to squabs in this respect is that "....absorption by immature skin may be enhanced. Immaturity of renal function may predispose these patienst to decreased elimination and increased blood levels." From this site:

http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.phar...s/CPS- (General Monographs- N)/NEOSPORIN.html

And another link recommending not getting in eyes, or inside the nose or mouth:

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/mono-927...PICAL.aspx?drugid=3744&drugname=Neosporin+Top

In terms of applying ointment, here's a link which describes the medical profession's 'preferred' method:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...tments+ointment&d=VdeEzhIeOSHG&icp=1&.intl=us

I know you have a lot of good info Phil, I just take issue w/this recommendation of Neosporin topical put in the eyes.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I always thought that was odd--that an antibacterial ointment wouldn't be sterile. There is a Neosporin ointment with the same ingredients (Neomycin, Polymyxin B sulfates and Bacitracin Zinc) which you wouldn't know was different from reading the ingredients. The big worry that I seem to get out of reading those links isn't that the topical isn't sterile, but more that they seem to be worried about the absorption by the body. Those particular antibiotics are actually not to be used systemically and they're worried if you use them on a place where they might absorb, tender membranes being the worst. It may be that the formulation for the topical variety for skin is more powerful or has something in it to help it penetrate lightly that the ophthalmic ointment doesn't.

That theory said, I kinda' wonder if pigeons or birds have as much of a problem with those antibiotics floating in the blood (or even more of one) as we do.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of course, the inactive ingredients don't exactly sound like the kind of stuff you'd want in eyes:

http://www.epinions.com/content_337980001924

Haven't found out what the inactive ingredients are in the ophthalmic version yet.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Melissa, Phil and all,
> 
> I think the topic of using Neosporin in the eyes has come up before here, I'll
> just pass on some of the information that I have read on the topic. Neosporin topical is not recommended for the eyes for one obvious reason, sterile ointments are recommended for the eyes because an infection could be introduced otherwise. This is also why one is never to touch the tip of the tube to the eye when administering, but rather run a bead into the lower eyelid and close it. The other interesting issue w/Neosporin topical in the eyes is that some of the common adverse reactions are developing a rash, swelling of the eyes, face, throat, tongue, etc. A quick google of Neosporin topical+applied in eyes, will yield link after link w/warnings to not use in the eyes.
> ...




Hi fp,


Then just what do you suggest someone do in an emergency situation, or in some logisitcal compromise of rural living or as may be, or where they do not want to spend the money for the expensive tiny 'tube' even IF they can get it...where they do not have, or are not going to have for some days, or are never going TO have, the technically optimum people-grade "Antibiotic Eye Ointment" proper?


I have always been careful and explicit in my mentions of this.


Would you rather the Eye is lost, the infection spreads into the optic nerve, destroys the other Eye as well, and possibly also infects the Brain and kills the - by then, irreversably Blind - Bird?

Or, as a pro-tem measure, when no technically optimal 'official and ingedient-wise identical Eye Ointment is available, to just use 'Neosporin'..?

The ingrediants of these are identical but for the technicality of Licensing for Human "eye" use, and this is a licensing technicality, just as it would be if Apple Cider Vinegar were a 'medicine' and we could hear all these meaningless bad admonishions then about NOT useing 'Braggs" because it does not have the same "license" as someone else's Vinegar.

Meanwhile, it would take a very serious and costly chemical analysis to tell them apart, and one even then might not be able to tell them apart atall...they are the same thing, same ingredients, merely different licenses.


Think about this please...

I did!


Which is "why" I mention it in cases where anyone can easily GET 'Neosporin' at any 7-11 or other late night store...

And, rather few people, even if willing, can readily get the technically recommended tiny expensive tube of "Eye Ointment" on short notice, after business hours, on weekends, or close to home.


That, is the reality here...and, those ARE the options..!


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...

Prognosis wise...

When I get in Pigeons with neurological issues/symptoms...

If I see ANY 'improvement' in-a-few-weeks, I am more than happy...

If it takes a month, two months, or ( in reality, it can many times take ) three months for significant improvements...I just accept this as the way it is for "that" Bird and their condition.


Never sell them short because after a week or something you are not seeing dramatic improvement...

These things take "months" in many cases...and even six months or eight to resolve to where the Bird is just about back to their old self...and maybe even longer for those last little loose ends to finally get tidied up...

Have patience...don't give up on them...bear with it...



If no improvement in four months, then say the prognisis is not encouraging.



Too, the diet and the conditions of keeping are likely just as important for the neurologically injured Bird, as they are for other injury or illness Birds.


Direct Sunshine ( once fit to be out in a cage )...Natural suppliments for their food or Seeds or formula...antioxidents...natural food source Viatmines and Minerals, all can be very important for them and contribute to their recovery.


Emotional comfort, feeling safe and easy...how they are handles, interacted with, touched, having other happy ambient Birds flying around, similarly, reduces Stress for their copeing with being in captivity...


Best wishes..!


Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Like Ron, I have never had that happen with a drop out. Most of ours that fall from a high bridge usually land on their rump.


Is that because they've usually got just enough wing to help guide, if not slow, the fall?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Is that because they've usually got just enough wing to help guide, if not slow, the fall?
> 
> Pidgey



Seems to me...yes, they try and fly as best they can, and this is only enough of an effect - at best, if they are old enough and Feathered enough Wing wise - to rather keep an upright orientation at best...which has them hit the ground somewhat rump-first, belly-first, if less than perfectly.

But, depending on how they initially are poised AS they fall, the distance for this scenario needs to be pretty great...where for shorter falls, eighteen or twenty or twenty five feet, they hit the ground any which way, since they have not had time ( 2/3rds of a sceond or so is all, at most, by then, ) to manage any orientation/posture/positioning via all that semi-futile flapping...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, all...


'Neosporin'...

Hope I was not sounding hard or anything, just trying to be a little dramatic and matter-of-fact, and I am just up from a wretched allergy nap.


But, in summary clearification -

One SHOULD get a bonifide, true and proper little tube of the official 'Antibiotic Eye Ointment' at liesure, in advance of needing any, so one has it on hand for those 'typical' Friday night, Holliday Week-end occasions, of getting a Bird who has an eye infection starting up, or one already dangerously progressed.


If one does not already have the bonifide, true, correct and proper tiny 'tube' of official Eye Ointment...then one should do one's best to get one as soon as a need does arise.


If one can not get the bonifide, official, true, proper and correct Antibiotic Eye Ointment in the tiny 'tube', then my acceptance is that one may use 'Neosporin' ( which one can get just about anywhere, any time, ) untill one CAN get one.

This, in my view, is better than witholding treatment for an infected Eye...or to endanger the loss of that Eye or Eyes.

Everyone plays SO fast and loose and by guess and by golly and by hear-say or old rote and whatever else, it amazes me that any of us would get hung up on THIS, which is really a very simple matter to come to terms with.

If you do not have and or can not get the 'tiny-tube' Eye Ointment, which in most areas is not obtainable without a perscription...and a perscription needs a payed visit TO a Vet or people MD, during hours when the Vet ( or MD ) is "open" and so on, so, what is your recourse 'then'?


Best wishes...

Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil,

I posted what my thoughts are on the topic, and for someone living rurally, the cost of the 'real deal' is anything but expensive. It would behoove the person
if they have birds to simply pay the few dollars when ordering. In Melissa's situation, I believe she has access to Medications and is therefore a non-issue
here. So this wouldn't be the rural emergency that you speak of.

If you think that coming from the medical family that I do, I haven't thought of this, you are incorrect. I simply disagree w/advocating the use of neosporin topical on the eye because of the concerns for rashes, inflamation/swelling, and the introduction of infection to the eye that especially a tube kicking around the house would offer, and potentially a new one. 

These are my thoughts on the topic, and you have yours, that's what it boils down to.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Is that because they've usually got just enough wing to help guide, if not slow, the fall?
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey, that has been our experience. We had one hit with his rump so hard it was so swollen the vet wanted to immediately put her down saying internal organs were damaged too much. I resisted and after a few weeks the swelling went down and that baby (Cricket) grew up to be a dandy little pigeon. I still wish I had kept her and not released her - course, I want to do that with all of them.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, they can hit the pavement pretty hard, yet seemingly w/out head and extremity trauma. Most of the times that I find them on the concrete, the real
problem is that they are sick and require medical help from illness as opposed to
injury. I think Ron's suggestion for augmentin to be a wise one.

As Maggie mentions, their rump serves as a ballast and they tend to land on that end.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Melissa,

How is the youngster doing?

Can you give us an update please?

Thanks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil,
> 
> I posted what my thoughts are on the topic, and for someone living rurally, the cost of the 'real deal' is anything but expensive. It would behoove the person
> if they have birds to simply pay the few dollars when ordering. In Melissa's situation, I believe she has access to Medications and is therefore a non-issue
> ...



Hi fp, 

I never said to use an "old" tube of 'Neosporin' that has been kicking around the house.

I have always said one can get 'Neosporin' easily at almost any kind of general store or 7-11 or drug store or grocery store...unlike the tiny tube "Eye" ointment, which is not at all easy to get.

If there was an ambiguity in this aspect, please appreciate also, that there are endless ambiguitys most of the time in most everything anyone here does say anyway. Such is the nature of the written word...and how it is hard to cover EVERY possible permutation of any otherwise simple mention, or to head of everyone's lack of common sense with details that would go on endlessly TO try and do so.


The people to whom I have mentioned 'Neosporin' were dealing with a found Pigeon and usually a first Bird, and are NOT people who "have" Pigeons anyway.

We are lucky they will do anything at all for the Bird, let alone that we should tell them to go to a Vet, get a perscription, go to a pharmacy, get the tiny tube one for another $15.00 on top of the $125.00 or more Vet Bill, and all that driving, and hours, and so on which this can take.

Obviously you do not see it this way.

Okay...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, I respect you, just dissagree w/advocating the use of topical Neosporin for the eyes. There is a pharmacy in this instance where medications may be purchased. In many of the instances where I've seen it advocated, there were other options. 

The cautions on rashes, swelling and inflamation for the topical product on normal body skin is just more problematic when placed on the sensitive tissue around the eyes, which is why there is a caution on using it 
near or on the eye & inside of the nose. One of the articles on the
topic of using Neosporin topical in the eyes, concerned a feral kitten's eyes and a Vet didn't want the product being used this way 
because he said it wasn't "eye friendly".

There is the issue of absorption rate in new tissue of babies additionally.

Whether a new tube or a used one, I don't think other issues are overcome.
As far as a non-sterile antibiotic ointment goes, or using Neosporin topical in the eyes, the next time one of us goes to the optometrist, maybe we could ask the specialized doctor what his/her thoughts are on the topic. For now, it might be a good idea to advocate for the correct medication first, and see if there's a problem in acquiring what's needed, jmo.

fp


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*Sorry, internet was on the fritz*

I haven't been able to connect, and still can't open my email. But I only have sad news to report anyway. The baby passed two days after my last post. I managed to get and give dexamethasone injectable as well as antibiotics. He just got worse and worse. I ended up having to crop feed him, because he became too weak to swallow. Everytime I checked him I expected him to be gone, but he really was a fighter and hung on a long time. Maybe because I kept him hydrated. I felt at times like I was doing the wrong thing keeping him alive with fluids and nutrition, but I couldn't deal with the idea that there might be some small chance. And I had to try. I only had the little fellow a few days, but miss him anyway. My heartfelt thanks to everyone. I am going to try to post this now, but the internet keeps quiting. 
Thanks again, Melissa


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Melissa, I am truly sorry this baby didn't make it. The injures were just too severe for him to overcome but you gave it your all and he passed in a loving environment.

I hope you'll be able to come on from time to time. I have always enjoyed your posts from Saudi Arabia. Best wishes.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Melissa, I'm sorry about the baby, sounds like the injuries were just too much
to overcome even with all the support s/he recieved from you. Thanks for
doing all that you did for the baby, this little one was in very good hands w/you.

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Melissa, I am saddened to hear this news, thanks for going the extra mile for this little one and the comfort and care you provided.

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry Melissa . I think that you did the right thing when you ensured that he had nutrition and hydration. Thirst and hunger would have made his last days so much worse.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Melissa,

I'm sorry to hear the baby didn't make it, but I am glad you comforted it in its last days and gave it nourishment, thank you for supporting this little one as best you knew how.

I appreciate the update.


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