# council netting- advice needed



## clawsywp

On my travels around London today I noticed pigeon netting under a bridge.

The thing is, the netting has holes in it, and pigeons are living inside the netting. I saw some get in and out thru small holes in the netting, thu watching one bird try and get in, it was attempting to get thru too smaller holes before finding the large enough hole.

The netting has 4 of these plastic conical shaped things that look like they are designed to let the pigeons out but not back in. Though if i was a pigeon I would not recognise this as a way to get out, its such a stupid design!

Anyway some of the birds have become trapped in the netting holes, trying to get out of a too smaller hole and gotten strangled and perhaps just getting cuaght up in it.

One pigeon hanging right over the foot path strangled in the netting like it had tried escaping the net but got caught up. Its horrible.

I have attached pictures. they are a bit upsetting. I beleive it was a dead bird as it wasn't moving at all and looked like the netting around its neck was so tight wouldve strangled it.

I need advice, do i complain to the council to tell them to get the netting fixed so the birds cannot get inside the netting at all! So then if they cant get in they will not be able to get strangled trying to get out?

Or do I leave it, i am not sure what else to do. I rang the rspca and was told that they cant do anything unless there is a live pigeon trapped there.

I would say most of those pigeons must know how to get out as the netting mustve been up for a while. So technically they aren't trapped but obviously many of them are dying trying to get out of the nets.

I am mad at the council for being so half arsed about the netting and those stupid cone exits i would eat my hat if a bird actually used one of those.

I am not sure if i should complain or if that would make it worse. They might just fix the wholes up leaving the pigeons inside 'to get out on their own thru the stupid cone exits'

I was thinking of putting posters up under the bridge saying If you see a live bird entangled in the netting please ring the RSPCA, here is its number XXXXXXXX. Not sure how that would go down . so many CCTVs around too


http://www.flickr.com/photos/clawsywp pics of the dead trapped pigeons


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## clawsywp

has anyone seen a pigeon use those cone exit things?

I noticed a carcass near one of the cones, so i dont think the birds use the cones and try escape out thru the netting instead, either that or they got entangled - in which case shouldnt the council make the netting so it doesnt tangle up the birds.

I am thinking that i saw 4 carcasses, i dont know how old but they all have feathers and are not jsut bones.

I know the RSPCA is busy but it makes me so mad why i got told i have to wait for a live one to be 'trapped'. I told her that because there are holes in the net they might not be technically trapped but surely if so many dead bird bodies are there it shows they are getting entangled trying to escape.


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## amyable

Hi Clawsywp,

There is a Sticky in the Resources section here about just that, posted by Cynthia a while back. It gives a number for you to call.

www.liberation-mag.org.uk/pigeon8.htm.

Those pictures are so upsetting, these ideas are sold as a solution to keeping pigeons away from buildings but do the people who put them up bother to have a look at what suffering they are causing.

Good luck with your call.

Janet


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## clawsywp

thank you i will go read it i can remove the pictures if you think i should


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## Feefo

Those poor pigeons!

It is a wildlife crime, this link tells you what you can do about it and the address of the Wildlife Crime Unit.

http://www.liberation-mag.org.uk/pigeons8.htm

Please let us know the outcome, as this is happening in so many places, they are keen enough to put up the netting then fail to maintain it.

BTW welcome to Pigeon Talk!  

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

Ok Thank you.

What I am wondering is, is it OK for me to say the pigeons are trapped?
As there is the cone exit things there and holes in the netting too. Sorry if i am dense here i am just not sure what words to use to complain


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## clawsywp

um those contact details on that site need changing oops

I rang them and he said this is a murder crime unit here.

um lol


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## Whitefeather

Those poor birds.  
*No* living being should be subjected to such inhumane treatment.



clawsywp said:


> thank you i will go read it *i can remove the pictures if you think i should*


Would it is possible to post a link to the pictures? 

Cindy


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## clawsywp

i would but i dont have anywhere to upload them will try


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## Feefo

OK, try this link.

http://www.met.police.uk/wildlife/

It should be sufficient to say that the netting is in disrepair, that pigeons have died and that some appear to be trapped. You could ask if Andy Fisher is still there and refer to his letter to Hackney Council, ask if a similar one can be sent. If that fails send the same style of letter yourself, with copies of the photos.

If you do a search for "Wildlife Crime Unit" + "Andy Fisher" you will find a lot of references to him and his work with the Wildlife Crime Unit, though much of it could be out of date.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Very apt that the number is now a murder crime unit, that is exactly what is happening here.


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## Skyeking

That is disgusting. They shouldn't be allowed to use netting to keep birds out, if the poor things get trapped in the holes, what a crime!!! It is probably a cheap way to keep them out, but lame ...they should spend money doing a little research first.


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## george simon

* I see that ken Livingstone (THE PIGEON HATER) is running for reelection as mayor of LONDON kick this pigeon hater out get someone that is more pigeon friendly. I do not know much about the politic's in ENGLAND but I do know that the one thing that these power hungry types fear and that is the loss of power so in MAY kick him out. GEORGE *


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## maryjane

I wouldn't hesitate to say that there are birds trapped in there. There undoubtedly are. I don't know what your animal welfare people are like there, but if ours here saw something like that, likely they would try to do something about it. I guess it would depend on the actual person who investigated. You could always send someone out there to see about trapped ones, and see if they bother doing anything about the netting. After all, it is their job!! (to make sure animals are safe).


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## naturegirl

I am so glad I don't live there as I would cut the netting down after dark. 

Cindy


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## Feefo

> I don't know what your animal welfare people are like there, but if ours here saw something like that, likely they would try to do something about it.


We have the RSPCA...they are publicity seeking and money seekingm but have no interest at all in the suffering of animals, especially those that they deem to be "vermin" even if the law doesn't classify them as that.

Once again I want to mention the Humane Society in Etobicoke, Toronto, particularly Bill, who cared so much about pigeons and other birds caught behind netting that he joined one of our forums to establish where this was happening and correct it. 

Cynthia


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## kittypaws

Sadly, netting is used pretty commonly under railway bridges and that although Network rail are just beginning to install sturdy mesh which is so much better.

My experience of netting on buildings and bridges etc is that "yes - make the authorities aware" - If it is a railway bridge then usually Network Rail are responsible. They can be contacted at Network Rail, Floor 1, 40 Melton Street, London NW1 2EE Tel 08457 11 41 41 ( 24 hours). I am informed that if there is a trapped live bird then they should come out - but please don't hold your breath. 

With regards to the RSPCA, I have managed to get them out a couple of times to live birds caught in netting but in these situations they have had to have the owners permission. Technically by law they are not allowed to intefere with private property irrespective of whether there is an animal suffering or not.

On the occassions I have seen live birds caught up I have managed to get help ( RSPCA. pest controllers, me!!) . It may have taken a day or two with numerous phonecalls etc and on one occassion, myself persudaing the owner of a property to let me in to free the pigeon trapped outside the window of her 4th floor flat. I had to lean out of the window, with one hand holding a pair of scissors and in the the other trying to still a very flapping pigeon  - I could have easily fallen and been killed but I was determined to save this bird. Needless to say when the landlord had found out what I had done ( and this took 2 years of getting on to that landlord) he finally took the netting down!! 

PICAS - Pigeon Control Advisory Service - also advise that if you ever see a live pigeon trapped in netting to give them a call as they may be able to help/assist.http://www.picasuk.com/contactform.htm

But back to your issue. Write to the council or Network Rail - try and found out who is responsible. Also advise the RSPCA - I usually send them a letter with a copy of the letter that I have sent to the owner of the building/bridge and ask them to lean on these people. It is illegal to trap a wild bird and technically this is what these people are doing. The RSPCA advises that netting should be checked daily - Hah......

Don't give in either. Where is this bridge? - I am happy to write to the authorities and the RSPCA as well as your photos are good and I can easily pretend that I was there too.

I have never seen the cones before - not sure what that is all about.

I hate netting - it is very distressing to see birds caught up. 
Thank you for trying to get something done.

Tania xx


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## first flight

*sorry*

o how HORRIBLE!!!!!! i am so sorry that you had to see those poor things dead grrr to the person who made the nets best luck not to see any more dead birds 
first flight


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## clawsywp

thanks for replying and the advice

about the cones
they look so stupid to me, i would not think birds would use them, how would a bird know that is an escape route?
to an animals mind it would look more solid than the netting i think. also how is it supposed to find its way out through them. as it would have to fly facing downwards to get out thru it.
jsut seems like some stupid idiots idea but i may be wrong


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## clawsywp

I rang RSPCA again
It really depends on who answers the phone
the person I spoke to was most helpful and said its an offense if the nets are in desrepair letting them in but they cant get out.
she said she has put it thru as an urgent call. Said an inspector would go around and try see if they can get any of them out, and write to the railways about it.

i went back there today, no new birds entangled today.

I got too much on this week not much time for the pigeons afraid. Will try get hold of wlc unit too. maybe tommorrow try check out the other bridges in the area too.


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## clawsywp

also rang teh network rail was a nice guy on teh other end, who knows how helpful they will be

i think the bloody network rail should get prosecuted for animal cruelty, they must KNOW how this netting hurts pigeons by now , i mean how many years do they keep using it


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## kittypaws

I admire you  - you are very persistent and that is what finally grinds people down to do something. I am sure the RSPCA will inspect the bridge and make their concerns known to the owners of the bridge ( Network rail or the council) and it may take a little time, but keep on at them- be a pest - that is what I used to do. 

I fear if you look at other bridges you will see some horrible sights - I hope not - some are replacing that horrible netting with a mesh which is much better.

There is a bridge near me with netting and I saw two dead birds up there but also loads of live ones behind the netting too. Immediately I sought out the escape areas which I could see. Part of me wants to report the bridge to Network Rail to get them to repair it and part of me doesn't as I can hear babies up there and even if they came out to repair the holes, there is no way they could get the pigeons out as the brigge is very large - so in this case I am keeping mum and just keeping an eye on things.

The dead ones, I think were just unlucky and got caught up. It is very sad though....... I hate to see it. 
Tania xx


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## clawsywp

the RSPCA inspector seems really good thank goodness
She went and saw the pigeons today

and she left a message on my phone, the people who own the bridge are

transport for london

their phone number: 0207 960 4050

so i could ring them about it also....... its the overbridge on tower bridge road in southwark, london, SE1

she said transport for london said its not an urgent 24 hr job but a 7 day one and will try get something done soon. 
the RSPCA inspector said if nothings done to let them out tommorrow shes going to ring teh fire bridgade and get them to cut the netting. either tommorrow or monday.

i rang tranposrt for london and apparently the supervisor guy did tell rspca that it has to be lsited as a 7 day job but afterwards he said hes going to try get it donw ASAP.

so they are going to get help and that netting cut down. jsut hope no one dies before hand. sad they had to die in teh first place.

im pretty impressed with RSPCA inspector i was expecting a different reply tbh


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## clawsywp

kittypaws said:


> There is a bridge near me with netting and I saw two dead birds up there but also loads of live ones behind the netting too. Immediately I sought out the escape areas which I could see. Part of me wants to report the bridge to Network Rail to get them to repair it and part of me doesn't as I can hear babies up there and even if they came out to repair the holes, there is no way they could get the pigeons out as the brigge is very large - so in this case I am keeping mum and just keeping an eye on things.
> 
> The dead ones, I think were just unlucky and got caught up. It is very sad though....... I hate to see it.
> 
> 
> Tania xx


This is what i was worried about, if them 'getting them free' is going to be worse than them staying caught up, but there were 2 really fresh corpses and about 4 or 5 older ones. 
too late now anyways, i cant go back in time. i hope i did the right thing thu.


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## Feefo

You are doing the right thing, those dead birds could have been parents with chicks in the nest which would starve without them.  It can't happen again.

What you want to ensure is that if the nets are going to be repaired to keep pigeons out that any squabs are taken to a sanctuary where they can be raised and released. 

Thank you for showing us another side to the RSPCA, some of us are so disillusioned that we don't contact them any more, we should give them the chance to do something as you have.

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

cyro51 said:


> What you want to ensure is that if the nets are going to be repaired to keep pigeons out that any squabs are taken to a sanctuary where they can be raised and released.


im wondering how i do this? I will ring rspca again now and leave a message to the inspector about it.
Not sure what else i can actually do. I can't reach up there myself otherwise i would. I am hoping the firebrigade gets there today. If they dont i want to get some water up there somehow but i cant even reach the bottom ledge by many feet.

I am actually suprised they are going to cut the nets down with teh fire brigade...cause its on a major road, thu i dont imagine them disrupting traffic. 

I think its such a stupid thing to have nets. Surely it cant be saving them money using nets isntead.
i think of ALL the expense... its a false economy to use nets. the rspca, the public, the firebrigade, Transport for London have all had to spend time, and money on this and not small amounts either and of course the animals have been suffering terribly.
If someone added up the costs of all this and compared it to using spikes i bet the spikes would come out cheaper! thats jsut money too not animals hurting.


edit: i have rung both TfL again and RSPCA. seems TfL still hasnt done anything. Left message with RSPCA about teh nests. I will try get hold of the proper people and volunteer to take any babys to a santury (have to find one) when they fix the nets.

I think writing to TfL complaining will be good if many people do that would be better. snowballs hope in hell dunno


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## Feefo

I have posted rescue details on your other post. I will also e-mail Jayne as she has been through a similar experience and has local contacts.

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

hi thank you
i went back down there this afternoon and took video of them flying around inside.

rspca left a message on my phone saying that tfl is going to get the pigeons out either today or tommorrow and that she left a message with them about asking them to check for nests.
seems she wiping hands of it now. she said so thats all sorted. , is it? I dont think so, i dont trust them to check for babies! 

i rang tfl and left my phone number saying there are babies in the nests and i volunteer to get them to a santury.

Im sorry i wished i never rang teh stupid places now. should have left the pigeons the way they were. too little knowledge can cause a lot of pain.

I went back today to check for babies and i am pretty sure i heard squeaking sounds in one spot. but its hard to hear cause the cars and trains. I didnt know pigeons could have babies at this time but DOH it is spring I shoulve thought! 

i will go visit there tommorrow a few times to try catch tfl there. I just wish they would let people check for nests themselves. i dont trust them. 

think i may have done the wrong thing but i cant turn back time.i jsut hope ive not made it worse. i would like to get a ladder and search on the bridge myself.
I now worry that other people have made holes in the netting for them. how else did those holes get there. in which case i have probably stuffed up majorly by notifying people.


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## Feefo

Are they going to repair the netting or remove it? If they are going to remove it, then the nestlings will be safe at least until they decide to replace the netting.

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

no rspca inspector said that tfl is going to repair it and get the pigeons out . She was a bit grumpy on this message also and said i can contact them directly rather me ringing the rspca. I know they busy but heck, shes got more powers to make people do stuff than i do.


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## Feefo

You are not doing anything illegal, so this will not affect your visa, but it would be great if you had someone else there.

Can you let us know where the bridge is? Maybe we can find someone in the area to be there as well.

I have been asking for a bit more information about resources in London and this is what I got told:

_I assume that these people know they must never let the RSPCA take away injured or baby pigeons as they will automatically put them to sleep. They may say differently but that is what will happen. However, I once had to rescue some babies under a bridge and a lovely RSPCA inspector came out and got the fire brigade to get there as well. However, had he taken them back to base I am sure they would have been put to sleep. _

This is what we hear over and over again. 

I honestly think you have done the right thing and that you have been very effective. If you had let things remain as they are and then seen a pigeon dying in the netting you would have felt terrible.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Hi Clawsywp,

I agree totally with Cynthia, you mustn't think you have done the wrong thing by getting involved, absolutely not. Things were never going to get any better there for the birds and at least there's a chance now that the ones there will be freed. I've been reading your thread with great interest and have really admired what you have done so far and the effort you have made to help these pigeons.
It's very frustrating when you want to do something yourself to help and it gets thwarted by others who are actually able to do it but can't be bothered, it's always someones elses job.

I'm sorry I'm not near enough to help you, but wish you the best of luck and thanks for your efforts to date.

Janet


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## clawsywp

HI thank you very much for all the encouragement! i would not be able to try & help them without u guys helping.

The bridge is on Tower Bridge Road, its an overpass archway thing that goes over Tower Bridge Road. You can see the Tower Bridge from it. The corner of Druid Street and Tower Bridge road is where it is. If you google Druid Street it shows up.
Its in SE1 London, in Southwark. 

the TfL phone number where ive been ringing: 0207 960 4050

it might help if someone else rang to tell them to check for nests?

Im gonna try go there tommorrow and try see if those TfL people turn up. I guess it would be probably be in the am if they show, not sure. I did take a video today trying to hear any squeaking i am pretty sure there is a squeaking sound on it.
am asking upstairs for some luck.

thank you for all the encouragement!

yes would be a heck lot easier if i could just get a ladder and get inside the bridge myself, rather than trying to get others to do it. It imagine finding nests wouldnt be that hard. the nets have big zippers on them and youd just need a ladder to get there.


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## amyable

I can just feel the frustration you're going through. I'll make a call to them pretending I've just seen some trapped and dead birds also and mention the nests.

I have a similar but smaller operation on the go at the moment where I can see the door to the building, and like you, feel I just need a ladder and I could sort it out myself, but for the sake of the birds, do have to bite my tongue while there is still a chance it can be carried out with co-operation of the 'powers that be'.

(You've already got a shove from above I think, it put you where you were when you saw this problem, I'm sure you're helping.)

Janet


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## amyable

Hi,
I've just spoken to a lady at Tfl. She confirmed that they had been made aware of the situation and she was actually logging any calls to show that there had been a lot of interest in this matter.

The delay at present seems to be with getting a cherry picker to allow them to get up high enough. As you said they are on a 7 day notice but as they only deal with accident and emergencies there, it might be that they will only get the trapped birds freed. The matter of nests and future problems might not get dealt with as a priority, and she really couldn't give me a definite answer about how they would deal with the nests. I noted that unless they did deal with the whole problem that it would only arise again as any birds raised inside the nets would then be trapped.

In case anyone else does phone, she did ask how I knew their number as they only normally get calls from the companies they deal with and not the general public, I had to bluff my way through that one saying I had found it on a website and that I had also spoken to the RSPCA who had passed it on to me.

She was quite informative and it does seem that they are going to do something about it but to what extent is another matter.

Janet


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## Feefo

Jayne is also telephoning people that might be able to be there to help on the spot.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

I telephoned and expressed Pigeon Aid's concern over the fate of any squabs, I was told that they are trying to hire a cherry picker and that they have "her" number to call, presumably they mean clawsywp.

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

HI
thank you so much for the encouragement.
I near in peices and need to go calm down

I went down there today. they did not get the birds out.

the birds, about 8-12 are still behind the nets. The tfl contractor people fixd all the netting and removed teh dead bodies.
they fixed the netting so now the birds cant get in or out except out the top thru a bit of a dangerous netting.

So now they are stuck behind there, even worse then before!!!! but according to teh tfl contractor people they are not stuck as they will use those exit cones to get out.........

i dont beleive this and the supervisor told me oh yes they do use them she hasnt seen them do it first hand but apparently they do......

personally i think the exit cones are the biggest crock of **** excuse my frence. Like some invention to placate the worrying public.

I was there from 10-10.30 and left after the tfl left at 3.15pm. i was watching these exit cones and didnt see one pigeon use them. 

I ran out of battery on my camera but i have film of them ignoring the exit cones.
but the most telling was jsut before i left, i put brad on the ground ourside one of the cones and the trapped pigeons tried to get it. there was about 6 there all squirming around a small space trying to get out thur the netting but not one got even close to the exit cone.
I think it is total BS and the 2 tfl people said it works but they have not seen it work themselves! SO how they KNOW it works?

Im jsut very upset but will go there tommorrow and try get this on film. the pigeons crowding around but not nering the exit cone.

when i warm up i will post more.

oh and also a tfl man drove up to see what was happening as they were getting many phone calls about trapped pigeons. He was told by the contractors that they have exit cones for them to get out... so he went away satisfied. SO everyones phone calls got him out there no doubt! He said hes going to write a report about it.
So the phone calls are having a good effect.

i hope i am wrong and they do use those cones but i dont think so...... i will wait but so far they dont use them AT ALL.

ALso regarding squabs the squeaking i heard i think was the pigeons courting as i saw some where the sound was and it was the same squeak and it came and went on and off all day.
the contractor guys did check the ledges as far as they could see to check for babies and i hung around in case they saw some. He said he saw none at all. He seemed like a nice guy trying to be nice to the pigeons.

I jsut am worried about those exit cones and that they do not work!

excuse ym spelling and grammer my fingers and brain are frozen 
bbl

I really think next time i hope for more netting holes! rather than ring anyone!


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## Feefo

Pigeons don't squeak when they are courting, and "squeakers" can look like adult birds when they are still too young to leave the nest and look after themselves.

If the parents manage to get through the cones, they would be leaving the babies to starve. It is unacceptable that they have sealed any pigeons in.

Did you telephone the wildlife crime unit?

We will have to put more pressure on TFL. There was a case in Paris where pigeons were sealed in somewhere and there was such an outcry that they had to let them out. Same thing somewhere in England.

Cynthia


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## spirit wings

how many dead pijins do they need to see that the exit cones are not being able to be used! I admire you trying to help this situation, Stay strong


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## clawsywp

no ive not rung the wild life crime unit yet. i am gonna be really busy with work from tommorrow until wednesday i am worried i will not much time to do as much as is needed.

I didnt know how old the squeakers look....... i dont know what to do now? he said he saw no babies, but he wasnt looking for older looking birds...

i am praying some safe holes appear in the netting...cause otherwise those squeakers might die?... how long could they live for??? i cant get up there to see 4 myself or make an exit. 

next time do not ring authorities


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## Charis

We have a member that had a similar situation. The member I am referring to, gathered other members from the area, got a ladder, opened up the screened in area and rescued the babies. They did this at night with one of them directing the traffic. It was not an easy task but together they pulled it off. Maybe you could put something together with the assistance of other members. 
I think you need to act quickly with what ever action you decide to take.


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## Feefo

I telephoned Tfl and told them what had happened, I have warned them that if any pigeons die now as a result of their actions it will amount to a wildlife crime.

clawsywp, I will PM you my telephone number, if you could just keep me updated on what you see or hear then I will make the telephone calls required.

Charis, I will try to find out who there is in London that would be willing and able to go up and rescue the birds, but I think it might need a cherry picker rather than a ladder. But will do what I can.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Can you let me have the RSPCA number and the name of the person that you spoke to?

Thanks

Cynthia


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## Charis

cyro51 said:


> I telephoned Tfl and told them what had happened, I have warned them that if any pigeons die now as a result of their actions it will amount to a wildlife crime.
> 
> clawsywp, I will PM you my telephone number, if you could just keep me updated on what you see or hear then I will make the telephone calls required.
> 
> Charis, I will try to find out who there is in London that would be willing and able to go up and rescue the birds, but I think it might need a cherry picker rather than a ladder. But will do what I can.
> 
> Cynthia


I'm praying that a kind soul, with a cherry picker and willing attitide, can be found. I know you're on it.


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## clawsywp

i wouldnt ring tfl or the RSPCA now cause some kind soul has put holes in the netting to let them out 
If they (tfl) get out there again they will probably just fix the nets once more with the birds inside. rspca were the ones to ring tfl. I dont know what is best to do but i am so thrilled someone with guts had gotten up there and made some holes, so they are not trapped now.

THANK YOU! whoever who helped them.

I think i have learnt a few things, not to ring RSPCA for something like this.......but to put holes in the nets would be the best. I dont know, i really dont know what is best to do now. At least they have some holes to get in and out of thu


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## Niel

Hi, 

I have only just been made aware of this via a message on my mobile from Jayne (thanks Jayne!). I'm glad it seems to have been sorted, but if any problems remain, or if anyone else has similar dificulties in the UK, PLEASE email Save the Trafalgar Square Pigeons (STTSP) at the following address, which is checked daily, and we can get onto it immediately.

[email protected]

Well done to whoever freed these birds!

Niel


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## clawsywp

well its not stopped

i was down there today checking the pigeons and i saw the TFL and the pest control man there.

So its not gone away! Its back to square one... i dont know why they went there again.

I told them that there were babies there, and you could see them with your own eyes and that i had recorded all of this incident on video. 

& How parents couldnt reach their babies behind the net.

Seems they are going to re do the netting  They have my number to ring when they go in at night to get the birds....... i said santuries would take them.

he kept asking me what organisation i was from i said none but i was in contact with 2 who were interested in what was happening.

the pest control guy was there and i asked him where they get the cones from, he said he couldnt say. he cant say where they get them from or whatever. I said i didnt think the birds used the cones.

I said if u use the cones, even if the parents do use them (highly unlikely) the babies will die.

Geesh this jsut wont go away will it. thought it was all ok and now its back.


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## clawsywp

ive jsut read something that says it is legal for them to kill them humanely if it risks human health which is what no doubt they will say.

so they gonna kill them no doubt now. 

i saw another baby one today there are 4 babies near the net no doubt more on the other side.


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## Feefo

Maybe they will show some common decency and compassion, and contact you to take them to the sanctuary.

I am just so sorry that this has happened, I feel responsible for encouraging you to contact TFL in the first place.

You have taught me a lesson. I hope all their nets get torn down every day so that they will have to spend a fortune on "pest control".


Cynthia


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## Charis

News Story?


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## clawsywp

hey Cynthia its not your fault! I was the one who contacted them, i thought the RSPCA would cut a hole in the netting or something. I feel sick cause i called attention to this, its horrible.

Well i dont know what to do. How do I get a news story? Write something and send it to the news? 

fk its just horrible i dont even trust those pest controls to not leave any to starve again.
heck,

at least one the guys with the TFL was nice said he loved all animals and babies or adults they shouldnt be harmed. 

Well if they are going to kill them i am going to complain to the WLCU about how they trapped them there in the first place leaving them to starve and how those stupid cones mean birds starve to death.


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## amyable

Hi Clawsywp,

Just caught up with this latest news. Have you emailed Niel form the Trafalgar Square Pigeons yet? He did say to if it came back. He may have an idea how to get some publicity. Really feel for you on this as you are there to see it unfolding, and it hurts to watch.

So what happened to the RSPCA and the fire brigade option that TFL told me was to happen?

Janet


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## clawsywp

did TFL say that was going to happen? Geeze!

I guess now that they are going to clear them out it would be good if we all ring TFL and hassle them a lot.


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## Charis

I emailed him this thread. I am really heart sick about this situation and wish I were close so I could help.
As far as the media, start by calling the news room of the local television stations and maybe you will get a kind ear. Don't let a mean or dis-interested person stop you. Keep at it until you find someone that will listen. Say the facts without interjecting any judgments,even thought you may want to. A calm, direct person will be listened to over someone that is raging. 
That's what I have done here.


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## John_D

Maybe you can contact whatever the local newspaper is in your part of London? I have occasionally written to letters columns, but they either don't get printed or just get swallowed up among the rest. Possibly there may be a phone number or email address for the news desk or news editor - at the least there should be a postal address, or maybe an online edition.

I would assume the local radio station would be BBC London. Down my way, the radio station (BBC Solent) has a 'newsmaker line' which people call with items of concern to them, many of which are followed up on the morning show and investigated by the programme presenter/news team. Would think any BBC local radio has something similar.

John


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## clawsywp

i have been in contact with saveThePigeons by email

I guess if TfL are going to go ahead with clearing out the birds then it might help to ring and hassle them. if you know of anywhere good to get people to ring please post this there.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/4417.aspx

has a lsit of their contact numbers. complaints department says it will write back..

also the number we were ringing before:

transport for london

their phone number: 0207 960 4050. they will ask where u got the number from. Maybe tell them you got it from some group or something.

its the overbridge on teh corner of Druid Stree and tower bridge road in southwark, london, SE1.

They had netted off babies and then someone put holes in to stop the babies starving. Now they are going to clear them out. I think if they are going to do that then they should

do it with consultation and the operation over seen by a welfare group (heck i dont know would the RSPCA be better than pest controllers left to themselves? or is that a bad idea)
because the pest controllers have already netted off babies and if left to them the birds inside would have starved to death!! Which IS a criminal offense.
get ALL the birds out humanely
allow the babies to get to a santury, im sure people would take them in and i volunteered to be there 

really if they going net the bridge off every few months. ... They have to pay a lot to close the road and get up there why not do it properly? Please ask them to contact PiCAS for humane and efficent pigeon control rather than pest controllers who starve birds to death, only to re do it every few months because they botch it up. 

Not sure if those are good ideas,or if any are possible but its worth a crack. Any input welcome.


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## clawsywp

If anyone wants to ring BBC London please do! I am going to put video of them trying to feed thru the netting on u tube. I am down there half the day so dont have much time if anyone wants to ring/write places please do. I am trying to get the courage to take a bus down there tonight at 3am but its a bit spooky. I hope no one hates me if i cant do it.


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## clawsywp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssUjIYnmjSQ
someone swears quite badly on it, i havent figured out how to edit that out yet. so might want to put the volume to mute.


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## Charis

clawsywp said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssUjIYnmjSQ
> someone swears quite badly on it, i havent figured out how to edit that out yet. so might want to put the volume to mute.


Never mind the swear words, the sight of that poor trapped baby breaks my heart.


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## Feefo

The swearing gives it more impact, that was not a person swearing without great provocation.

Has anything new happened?

Cynthia


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## Feefo

I am a bit lost now...are the youngsters still sealed in, or are we trying to ensure that they are not killed when removed?

I telephoned TFL who referred me to the RSPCA. I told them that my understanding was that the RSPCA had been told NOT to call te fire service and that the fire service would not come out without the RSPCA's authority. I was given a number to contact to gain authority for the fire service to release the pigeons (or for the RSPCA to authorise the fire service to cut the nets) was Street Faults : 0845 850 2621.

Has anybody contacted Guy Merchant of PiCAS?

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Just had a call from TFL, they say the matter is being "dealt with". I asked what that meant and said that we didn't want these babies killed, they had suffered enough and we wanted to take them to a sanctuary. The guy I spoke to (who was nice and took the trouble to ring me back twice) assured me that they wouldn't be killed, this was after speaking to others, but who knows what the truth is? I wish I lived in London and had a long ladder or access to a cherry picker!

We need to have a campaign to make nets illegal and to make it illegal to trap birds behind mesh, there will always be the possibility that nestlings in the area that is about to be sealed off will be killed...although we could write to every pest controller in the country with a contact number of someone that could take nestlings to a sanctuary.

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

*No they are not sealed in anymore. *Someone put holes in and they can get in and out.
But now they are wanting to clear them out. 

They are going to have to do it at night and close the road off. 

I went there last night early hours and they weren't there.

I hope they get PiCAS or a welfare group to help with the plan to get them out. i dont know why they javent used spikes instead


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## clawsywp

cyro51 said:


> Just had a call from TFL, they say the matter is being "dealt with". I asked what that meant and said that we didn't want these babies killed, they had suffered enough and we wanted to take them to a sanctuary. The guy I spoke to (who was nice and took the trouble to ring me back twice) assured me that they wouldn't be killed, this was after speaking to others, but who knows what the truth is? I wish I lived in London and had a long ladder or access to a cherry picker!
> 
> We need to have a campaign to make nets illegal and to make it illegal to trap birds behind mesh, there will always be the possibility that nestlings in the area that is about to be sealed off will be killed...although we could write to every pest controller in the country with a contact number of someone that could take nestlings to a sanctuary.
> 
> Cynthia


Hey Cynthia you are so much good by ringing! That is helping A LOT! & even if you had a cherry picker they wouldnt need to move far to get out of arms length if u tried grabbing them thru the holes. I refuse to be down about it, those birds would have also had suffered if no one had rung.

I read that it is illegal to trap them behind mesh and common. I agree a campaign would be good. it should be banned its disgusting!


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## amyable

Just logged on to see what's been happening. So sorry haven't been about today to see all this going on. What's the latest in the way of help needed? Do you still need any help with making calls or sending emails?

Harrowing watching the video.

I'm not that keen on wires either but I suppose it's better than netting. There is a motorway bridge not far from here where they put up wiring as there used to be a lot of pigeons living under it. There aren't so many now but the ones that have stayed, cram themselves on the shallowest ledges and squeeze up against the wires, it's so precarious.


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## clawsywp

I am speaking to someone who may help speak with tfl tommorrow. Hopefully dont need more phone calls right now thank you.

I jsut did a search for road closures and seems TfL are doing road works/road closure where the pigeons from the 29th. Dont know if for the pigeons but i guess it will be.
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/streetworksfolder/streetworks.htm


If the pest controllers are up there and are chasing the birds out, and handing down the babies. I can collect them and take them to a sanctury the next day thu if i got lots dont know how carrying many on the tube and bus will be but i will manage. How long could they go without being fed? Like they dont get fed over the night anyway do they? So if they didnt get to sanctury until late morning they would be ok?


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## Feefo

Gosh, you are so resourceful!

How long the babies last without food varies according to their age. The danger is dehydration, but it is the featherless ones that would be at risk.

Cynthia


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## clawsywp

aw ty you are too. I know i am posting a lot probably too much posting.


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## clawsywp

update msot people already know but

At 8am tommorrow been told they are clearing them out and they will allow us to get the babies to a sanctury.

RSPCA might visit. Someone extremely kindly is going to be there too!! from save the pigeons.

the pest controllers are supposed to be supplying some case studies on these cones... 
RSPB are trying to find some information of those cones too. the people I spoke to havent seen them either. So thats all organisations ive asked no ones seen those cones before - PiCAS, RSPCA, RSPB, everyone here.
Lets hope they get every last one out.


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## Feefo

THanks for the update and good luck for tomorrow! Please let us know how it goes.

Cynthia


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## amyable

Hi Clawsywp,

Wow, what a difference a day makes, you and Cynthia have really got things moving.

Very best of luck tomorrow, I do hope you are able to get all the babies out.
Keeping fingers crossed for you and your kind helper.

Janet.


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## clawsywp

http://www.pestcontroldirect.co.uk/...ird_Escape_funnel_for_net_installations_.html

I found where they sell those cones. I still don't belive birds would use them from what i saw the pigeons totally ignored them. actively avoid them really. Like when they were sealed in, I put bread under the cone to try get them to use it, but they didn't go near it, they went all around it but avoided it.


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## Charis

Any new information?


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## clawsywp

hi 
me and someone from Save The Trafalgar Pigeons were there, and a bunch of TfL guys and the pest controllers.

They got 4 squeakers and i think 2 babies and a bunch of eggs from one side, on of the babies was still in its shell and so tiny.

then on the other side of the bridge they found 2 squeakers, but i think 4 babies and some more eggs.

I thought there would be more.

I did hear squeaking after they did the first side, i hope from the 2 on the otherside and not any that were missed. Because its hard to tell where the sound is coming from. i wanted to be up there looking for them myself i dont trust pest controllers much. Guess got to hope they all got rescued i saw one drop an egg but give benefit of doubt hopefully it was jsut a shell.

They sealed it off and there are about 8 birds i think left behind the netting. Didnt see any of them use the cones to escape. but they want to see if they use them to get out. 

I will be there over the weekend and try coax them out stick some food under the cones and see if they get the idea to use it. though i did try this last week when they got sealed in and they wouldnt go near it. Maybe they will use it this time.

Lets hope they use the cones, though they didnt listen when i suggested how the pest controllers have said the cones work because they are transperant and look like a hole in the net to the pigeon......but these cones are all dusty/dirty not transperant anymore so maybe thats why they dont use them as easily as claimed. Though i don't know anything about pigeons so maybe they will find their way out anyways.

Gosh i sound so negative. On the positive side , we got them to the Pigeon Recovery. And when handed them over the tiny babies were still moving around and really warm (we had put heating pads under their towel) so hoping they all live nice long lives.  

The women from Save The Trafalgar Pigeons was really nice and i was so glad she was there. Id say her name but i dont know if she would want her name published but she deserves a medal cause she was great and knew what to do, and had to travel miles to get there and was then having to all the way out again then all the way in again for something else.

Um yeh so tommorrow and sunday i try coax them out.

Which leaves me with a question, how long can pigeons go with water or food. Everyone seems to have a different idea, i was too late ringing the RSPB to ask there. Does anyone have a book with that on it that can be quoted. 
If its not long i will try get some water up there for them.


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## Charis

They can go about 4 days without water. If I'm incorrect I'm sure someone will correct me. Great job, by the way. I hope you can coax the others out. I still feel quite haunted by this situation...it must be giving you nightmares.


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## amyable

*Well Done You!*

You've worked like a trojan to get this done, you deserve a medal aswell. 
They're in good hands now at least, I'm sure they'll live nice long lives and it's down to you. 

Out of interest, did they decide to leave the eight adults there deliberately or was it that they wouldn't budge? It's sad to think that any birds are behind the netting after all your hard work.

Janet


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## chriss80

I have been watching this post lately and I am relived to know squeakers wore saved! You have done such a great job.


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## Feefo

You have done really well, congratulations.

I can't understand why they sealed the adults in yet again! It sounds like a mixture of cruelty and incompetence. We will have to kick up another fuss. 

If you can get bread and water to the adults then they should be OK, but if they are not out by Monday we will have to kick up another fuss and I will report it as a wildlife crime. It would be great if you could get another video too.

I can understand that the RSPCA do not have the authority to cut the nets and release the birds, but surely thay can prosecute the pest controllers for deliberately sealing pigeons behind netting.

Thank you for finding the cones! I am going to buy one and test it out, so that I know exctly what I am talking about when I say that they don't work.

BTW, do you have the name of the pest controllers? It is possible for DEFRA to revoke the General Licence that allows them to take and kill pigeons, and if they insist on sealing pigeons in then this is something I will pursue even though taking anything up with DEFRA or their minister seems to be a lost cause.

Thanks for everything you have done for the babies, they stood no chance sealed into the nets!

I am so glad that you weren't alone, it makes all the difference to have someone with you in these situations.

Cynthia


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## PigeonQueen

Yes, well done!

I admire your perseverance. The past days must have been very distressing for you, but your courage to pursue this to the end is now reaping good results.

You have done good and I hope the other pigeons will escape to the freedom they deserve.

Thanks also to Cynthia and others who also have helped with this rescue.

Jayne.


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## clawsywp

yes thank you!!!!!!!!!!! Cynthia and Jayne, Niel,john, chris, kitty, firstflight, spirit, charis,Janet,Cindy, Trees, george maryjane, naturegirl,, and Molga and Vicky , Micheal,and gosh everyone here i havent put your name i am sorry you are important and helped thank you from bottom of my heart because i felt so responsible for these babies cause i rung the rspca so u not only helped them but helped me because i wouldve felt so terrible had they died. thank you so much.
Cynthia,
Yes someone from Save the pigeons who was there today thought (i think) or maybe that we had no real choice to try see if the pigeons can get out through the cones for a few days.

I dont want to see them die of thirst or hunger of course.and i feel bad for the ones outside too, losing their babies must be very hard.

If they can't get them out, then really they will have to take the netting down won't they? Or kill them but they can't kill. not according to the law? Because if they say its because they are a health hazard that won't wash now.
the law is really quite strict isnt it, according to PiCAs but obvoiusly no one adheres to it.

Accorrdng to the law, and not what is normally done. is it legal to remove babies and eggs, and destroy the nests if the pigeons are a nuisance?

pretty sure the pest controllers name is premium pest control


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## clawsywp

cyro51 said:


> You have done really well, congratulations.
> 
> If you can get bread and water to the adults then they should be OK, but if they are not out by Monday we will have to kick up another fuss and I will report it as a wildlife crime. It would be great if you could get another video too.
> 
> I can understand that the RSPCA do not have the authority to cut the nets and release the birds, but surely thay can prosecute the pest controllers for deliberately sealing pigeons behind netting.
> 
> Thank you for finding the cones! I am going to buy one and test it out, so that I know exctly what I am talking about when I say that they don't work.
> 
> BTW, do you have the name of the pest controllers? It is possible for DEFRA to revoke the General Licence that allows them to take and kill pigeons, and if they insist on sealing pigeons in then this is something I will pursue even though taking anything up with DEFRA or their minister seems to be a lost cause.
> 
> Thanks for everything you have done for the babies, they stood no chance sealed into the nets!
> 
> I am so glad that you weren't alone, it makes all the difference to have someone with you in these situations.
> 
> Cynthia



i think they want to try the cones AGAIN because no one seemed to beleive me that they didnt use them last time. I was ready to argue but, well.. I think the other person there thought the cones might work and i should monitor the situation closely.

I agree they should not have left them inside, they got their end of the 
bargain that is the poor birds got their babies taken away and have been ev
icted, they should not harm them anymore.

I will get there sometime tommorrow and take some bread soaked in water or try climb up. i really hate them now it has pissed me off how much time they cost everyone because they are tight arses who wont look after animals properly. 

I think peeps need to have a talk about this when its all resolved if it ever is, like you said campaigning to get that netting down or maybe picking on network rail might be an idea.


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## Feefo

> Or kill them but they can't kill. not according to the law? Because if they say its because they are a health hazard that won't wash now.


The licence that allows them to take the birds and eggs and to destroy the nests also allows them to kill them, but not by trapping them to die behind netting.

The same licence would allow them to hand the birds over for relocation or rehabilitation, so we hope that whoever deals with the so-called "problem" is humane.

Cynthia


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## maryjane

Thank you so, so much for doing all you've done to help them....and to everyone who has helped with suggestions and everything. I just get goosebumps reading this whole thread, it is so amazing when people can actually make a difference and care so much. I hope everything works out soon!!!!!!!


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## clawsywp

thx its not over yet. heard more squeakers today. there are adults and babies still sealed inside the bridge. i am totally exhausted out. got some water soaked bread up there. 
i will NOT ring the RSPCA ever again regarding pigeons and netting unless it is a live bird struggling in the net AND no one else can reach up to it.

I did see another squeaker, got her/him on a photo. have told tfl guy that there are more babies.

I need a ladder so i can get up there with some food and water!!! I tried climbing the bus stop but couldnt will try again. So far just got soaked bread in water up there.


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## clawsywp

this is one squeaker who is still inside, i hope his parents are there and able to fed him. He was there today and yesterday.
He is high up on a beam, which they didnt check on Friday.

There are others besides this little one, not been able to see them but they are there because can hear them , have their noise on video tape also. 
I dont see how they can leave birds inside to die. I guess its the cheapest option, but really i think if you cant get inside to remove them because its too high up, then you shouldnt be allowed to put the net up there in the first place!


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## amyable

Hi Clawsywp,

I'm so sorry you haven't got peace of mind over this after all you did. I don't know what the people who helped you before would recommend now. (Please be careful about climbing the bus stop we don't want you having an accident.)

Did you say you told the man from TFL there were more squeakers, was that on the day you got the last ones or since you found these?

Are these squeakers much higher than the ones were before?

Janet


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## clawsywp

Hi Janet, there are a lot of people helping them now. sorry ive jsut not had time to post everything.
No this squeaker was not too high up, but i think others might be. hopefully they will see sense and get them out, because trapping birds like that is an offense. If anyone in uk wants to ring them again it might help! 

I dont think its right they can seal animals in like this and then want to have the parents escape but leave their young sealed in... If its too high up to remove the birds, then they shouldn't have the netting up there in the first place.


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## chriss80

That poor squeaker looks so helpless, they are such horrible people doing something like that.


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## clawsywp

if anyone lives near tower bridge or in London would appreciate if youd be able to feed the pigeons one day. i cant get there everyday now and there are about 6-9 still stuck under the bridge!

please pm me if you can help


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## clawsywp

Does anyone live in London?

I really need help feeding the birds still trapped inside the bridge. I cannot get there everyday and am hoping someone can help feed them for a bit. Until they escape. I cant do this by myself

PLEASE IF ANYONE LIVES IN LONDON AND CAN HELP!


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## Feefo

Bumping up for Clawsy.

I have e-mailed a couple of animal rescue places in London, will try a few more animal groups.

Also, I haven't received an "action alert" about this and wonder how many STTSP members in the London are know about it...I have e-mailed STTSP to this effect.

Cynthia


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