# Possible colors



## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

I have mostly black and white spotted pigeons I think there rollers and I'm about to get a pair of reds if they mix with my spotted what will be the outcome? I'm tied of black and white


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

This is some of them


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

And some more


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Some more recent young


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

All three are females and the black on the other side is the black females son who is breeding with the grey checkered on the female side also can someone tell me the correct colorings that I have thanks


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*colors*

All the birds in you photos are blue based birds. The black birds carry a gene called Spread. It is a dominant gene so you will get more. You have some birds that carry genes for whitesides, and baldhead. You also have a decent selection of pattern genes with the bars and checks.

What you can get with mixing reds will depend on the type of red. Ash Red is an alternative to the blue, but recessive red is a color factor not a primary color. Recessive red will only show up in birds with two copies of the gene so the first generation is likely to appear blues and blacks. Ash Red will show up in the first generation with all types of expressions. The blacks bred to Ash reds will give a wide range of expression from dirty duns to light silvery ash depending on the pattern behind them.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Hope to get colors other than black and gray


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Is this check?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

What would you call this young I had it this spring it's a female


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

This is all of mine


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

I have three males two are black and white with spots and white heads and then my black female is matted to the one with the white head and had a full black male baby that's matted to the check if that's what it's called I have 4 juveniles


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

This is the male that is matted with the full black female and had the black male


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

With my check matted to the black male how can I get more check her first baby was spotted like the males parents


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm getting a pair of reds from these not sure which


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Color Group*

Your source has a good selection of genetic factors and colors.

From top let to right these are the things I see. The top left bird appears to be a recessive red, but it is hard to be certain because of the angle of the shot. The second bird is an Ash Red probably a bar. The bird in the corner is either Ash Yellow or Recessive Yellow. Yellow is caused by the recessive gene dilute. This factor is often carried in cock birds but not expressed in their appearance. The fourth bird is Ash Red with T-Pat. I can't see enough of the fifth bird but I think it is also Ash Red. The black and white bird on the bottom left also carries the grizzle factor. Grizzle is dominant. The bird in the corner is a black that appears to also carry grizzle although maybe a different type of grizzle. The solid silver looking bird is either a spread ash bar or possibly a reduced factor bird. Reduced is another recessive gene, and can give you some beautiful laced birds. It is hard difficult to tell which of the modifiers is working here Spread or reduced. The next bird is an Ash Red bar carrying grizzle. What you can get from your birds is going to depend on how many of the factors and colors you get in the birds from this group or birds like in this group.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

The male he is giving is on the top the bottom is the female what could I get out of these two?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm actually getting two males both in the picture


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

The bird on the bottom is an Ash Red grizzle bar. I can't tell if he carries blue in addition to Ash Red. If he has black/blue flecking he is carrying blue. At the least he will give you Ash Red cock and hen birds. Fifty percent of the birds of all colors will carry the grizzle factor. If you pair him to one of your black hen birds that carry bar pattern you will get birds that are called Spread Ash, some refer them as lavender. It you pair him to a hen that carries check or T-pattern these birds will also be Spread Ash but they will not be the light attractive variety. 

The yellow cock bird in your picture is recessive yellow. Recessive yellow is the dilute form of recessive red. Recessive red is not one of the primary colors of pigeons it is a color factor that when two genes are present will hide the pigeons true color. That cock bird could be carrying any of the three basic colors. He could also be carrying other color changing factors beneath the recessive yellow like Spread or recessive white. The dilute gene (yellow) is a sex linked recessive. A cock bird must have two genes for dilute in order to be a dilute (yellow, silver, dun). The hens only need one gene since they only have one information carrying side to their sex chromosome. This cock bird will throw normal looking cock birds that carry dilute. All hens out of him will be dilute hens (ash yellow, silver, dun).


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Will the yellow male produce reds and how with who? I want as many red and replicas of these guys so who do I need to breed them with


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Also who would I breed him to to get yellows


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

The problem with the yellow cock bird is that you can't tell by just looking if he is Ash Red, blue, or brown since the factor recessive red is covering his basic color. You could get almost any color. He could produce Ash Yellow hens if he carries Ash Red. If he only carries blue he will produce true silver hens. If he has Spread on a blue base color (black) he can produce dun hens.

He could produce a recessive red of any sex, but only if paired to a recessive red hen which you don't have. 

The two forms of red, Ash Red and recessive red, are not related. They are produced by different genes. Recessive red is not sex linked meaning the gen is not on the sex chromosome. The gene for all the basic colors, Ash Red, blue, and brown are located on the sex chromosome as is dilute.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

So I won't ever have reds because I don't have a red hen?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Will the red grizzle produce reds?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

He has one yellow eye and one black eye with a spot of yellow why?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

He has no black speckles just red


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

I just noticed the red males left wing is droopy he flys fine but why is it hanging I separated them from mine they were only in my coop for 5 min until I noticed I have another coop I put them in I just finished treating mine for salmonella What would he have ??


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Good news the man informed me that right before he caught him to bring him he was doing rolls in air and hit the roof but he's not injured bad but to be on the safe side I'm going to treat them before I bring them back into the main coop


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Pigeonsforlife1911 said:


> He has no black speckles just red


The red grizzle bird will produce Ash Reds like himself in both sexes.

The wing droop can be caused by several things, but the first thing to check for is a swollen wing joint. Swollen wing joints in pigeons can indicate a paratyhoid (salmonella) infection. The condition is permanent even if the bird recovers from the infection, and birds like this can be carriers of the disease. Even after the bird has been treated and is free of parathyoid the wing will droop. If your bird has the wing boil separate it and treat it with Sulmet for 21 days, and it should be disease free.

In addition to the possible infection Rollers that have not been flown will get out of condition and droop their wings. Some families of rollers have a tendency to carry the wings below the tail. Out of condition and strain related wing droop almost always shows with both wings drooped where as parathyoid infection is often only in one wing.

The different colored eyes on the one bird is due to the white on the head. Often badge or baldhead marked birds will have the black eyes; referred to in the pigeon hobby as bull eyes. The badge marked birds will often have one colored eye and one bull eye.

BTW: Even good rollers can have an accident and crash (roll down) when coming down or going up, but a bird that does it all the this is unstable and not desirable as a breeder. Unstable birds will throw youngsters that roll down.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

These are the males the red one is different than the one I showed the other day  but if you could explain what these two could be thanks! Plus the red one has 2 eye colors why?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

This is the other male


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

The first picture in this last series looks like a recessive red. It is hard to be certain because he has white flights and a white tail. I believe he is the same as the yellow cock bird except that he does not have two genes for dilute. Either one of these birds could be carriers of the dilute gene without showing it since they come from a loft that has dilute in it. This bird not produce reds like himself in the first generation unless some of your hens are carrying on gene for recessive red. The basic color behind his recessive red could be Ash Red and that would get you some Ash Red birds in both sexes.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Ink spots*









Is the spot in the red circle blue or black? It looks like blue or black to me in your photo.

If it is this is the flecking I was referring to earlier. These spots in Ash Red birds are called ink spots. Most of the time only an Ash Red cock bird will show these spots although in very rare instances they have been seen in racing homer hens. They have not been noted in roller hens. These spots are a clue to the fact that although the dominant color of the cock bird is Ash Red he also carries the gene for blue. The same flecking can be seen in Ash Red cock birds that carry the gene for brown, but it is much harder to determine because the flecking is to close in color to the base.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Rollers*

By the way, these are some nice looking rollers.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Are they good ones ? I'm new to these rollers I'm not home to check for the ink spot but the red male is recessive red??? How can I get more reds? Will his first generation make a female that can later be bred to him to get reds? It's hard to understand all these genes


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Why does he have two different colored eyes?


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

The whole crew before I separated them


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Pigeonsforlife1911 said:


> Why does he have two different colored eyes?


The different colored eyes on the one bird is due to the white on the head. Often badge or baldhead marked birds will have the black eyes; referred to in the pigeon hobby as bull eyes. The badge marked birds will often have one colored eye and one bull eye.



Pigeonsforlife1911 said:


> Are they good ones ? I'm new to these rollers I'm not home to check for the ink spot but the red male is recessive red??? How can I get more reds? Will his first generation make a female that can later be bred to him to get reds? It's hard to understand all these genes


They have good type, but you will only know a good roller by the performance in the air. They are judged on the speed and style of the spin, the depth of the roll, and their willingness to roll when the rest of the kit rolls, and the willingness to fly with the kit. The recessive red cock bird paired back to a daughter will give you more recessive red birds in both sexes. The Ash Red cock bird will give you Ash red young in both sexes.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

So the mostly red male is a recessive red? Just to make sure even tho he has white?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Pigeonsforlife1911 said:


> So the mostly red male is a recessive red? Just to make sure even tho he has white?


 He looks like a recessive red. Once in a great while an Ash Red that carries bronze can look very similar to that bird. The white flights and white tail make if hard to say for 100 % certain, but in my opinion I think the odds are higher than it is a recessive red. It can still carry Ash Red hidden. The young will tell you within a couple of rounds what he is for sure.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Another question One of my favorite pigeons the check one is half the size of all the others and when I first got all of them she couldn't fly it took her months to get her feathers in and now she still doesn't fly well at all and now I see it in her first chick it is taking a long time to get all the feathers too and it still can't fly at 31 days old but a chick born same time from another can fly great does she have bad genes?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Pigeonsforlife1911 said:


> Another question One of my favorite pigeons the check one is half the size of all the others and when I first got all of them she couldn't fly it took her months to get her feathers in and now she still doesn't fly well at all and now I see it in her first chick it is taking a long time to get all the feathers too and it still can't fly at 31 days old but a chick born same time from another can fly great does she have bad genes?


I don't think what you are describing is genetic, but it could be. I think that hen is probably carrying parathyoid. Does she carry her wings below her tail. Does she have a lump in the wing joint? 

I would isolate her and put her on Sulmet for 21 days. Once she has been through that treatment raise some more young off her. If she is still throwing young than don't develop correctly don't allow her to raise any more. At that point I would get rid of her. You don't want the problem spread among the whole flock.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

I've treated the whole flock for paratyphoid already and they always have apple cider vinegar in there water she's always been like that


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

She drinks and eats fine and stool is healthy looking


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Hard to get a good picture but he does have what looks to be some black specks just on the white tail


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

The black flecks shows that he carries blue. His genetic makeup is Ash Red / blue / Grizzle. He can throw out birds of both sexes with a combination of these genes.

On the hen if you did not treat with Sulmet for the full 21 days she could still carry parathyoid and pass it on to the squabs through the eggs. Even once cured she will probably never be able to fly. I have also seen birds that were put up in small pens and never flown that couldn't fly well as adults when finally released, but those birds don't pass that trait on to young.


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## Pigeonsforlife1911 (Sep 24, 2015)

Where the best site to buy that medicine ?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Sulmet*

You can get it at Foys, but it is up to $14.45 there now. Jedd's carries it but they are out of stock. 

If you have Tractor Supply or some of the farm supply stores in your area some of them carry, and a lot of feed stores will it it too. Anywhere that caters to the chicken folks will usually carry it. I have been told it is the chicken breeders that are the reason for shortages. The 16 ounce bottle is all you will need. It last a long time if you keep where it is inside and cool.


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