# Is she sick?!



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Hi there. I've just (yeah, I turned everything on at 3.30 am x.x) noticed one of my rescues, the first and oldest one, is doing some weird stuff. She's shaking her head against the newspaper that covers the cage floor with her neck extended. I thought she had a seed or something stuck in her throat, but I checked and as far as I could see there was nothing. She is now preening, but then she goes back to do that, I can hear it while I try to sleep. She's been like that for a while now. Also when I took her out she opposed little resistance and let me pet her while I was thinking what to do. Also, I think she's a bit underweight at least compared to my other bird. I most positively think she is, that's what made me worry so much. Maybe that's because she doesn't like the new food, it's a pigeon mix. I'll buy the cardinal mix again for her. Or could she have a seed stuck that doesn't let the food go in? Her crop is full though. Also, I don't know if it was my imagination or what, but she seemed a bit cold. She was shaking a bit.
What do you think about this? Is my bird sick? I'm really concerned about her right now, I'm definitely not going to sleep well.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

The head shaking has stopped now. But I'm still concerned about her weight. She's puffed up in the cage, but it's not something I haven't seen before while she sleeps.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't recall...did you treat these pigeons for canker? Did you worm them?
How does her poop look?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Puffing up is usually a sign of illness. Can you remind us of what treatment and care you have been giving this one ? She may need some more meds.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Head shaking toward the floor is attempt to vomit. Reasons for young birds to vomit may be various.
Separate this bird, keep her warm, and monitor food/water intake.
Charis' has excellent point asking you for worms and canker treatment.
I would be also concerned about bird being under weighted. What are the poops like?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pawbla,

Given her medication history I would start her on probiotics while you consider . That is the protocol that vets in the UK follow now... do you have any probiotics?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I think so. She was on Metronidazole for I don't know what for some days, like 10 or 15 or so, I don't recall right now. I wormed them just a while ago. They were both treated for cocci due to the other bird's wing dropping.

As probiotics, I don't know. Is that Bene-Bac thing a probiotic? I have to go to the capital to get the regular probiotics for pigeons, I don't think anybody will be able to get them here until the weekend.

You might want to review the thread: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/babies-in-danger-what-to-do-41267.html

GREEN. Poop is effing green, I don't know how I didn't notice! I mistaked wet, broken pellets for poops a couple of times, the color is not so different now that I see closer. These weeks have been hectic so I think I didn't pay birdies enough attention >.<.

The food they are eating is a pigeon mix, insectivorous pellets and occasionally I throw in some raw peanuts and some safflower seeds.
I don't know what the pellets or the mix contain, but I have a pic of the mix: Click

Mmmhhh... She's been in contact with wild birds. I take both birds outside for some hours so they can get some sunlight for the D3 thing, and they also get some fresh air. One sparrow got in her cage once. And... well, there is a pair of resident eared doves that hang around to eat.

Any other info needed? I can't think of anything else useful.

Ohhh she's doing the head shaking thing again.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Yes Bene-bac will do you can check this link:
http://www.drugs.com/vet/bird-bene-bac-powder.html
Or,
Faculty of Agricultural Sciences do have probiotic as they do research on them. If you have someone to help you...


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

I had a pigeon that got sick from the safflower seeds. She loved them, and would eat a bunch of them. Then I noticed she was vomiting---up came the safflower. Sounds very much like the problem I had!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Ahh, no, wait, I have another thing. Some tubes, but for mammals T_T. Isn't there another option? Some natural probiotic?

No, I don't offer her enough seeds to get her sick. Also I didn't offer any yesterday, I think? Or at least not at night.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She's drinking and eating. I added a drop of ACV to her water. I did a search here and it says somewhere it's a probiotic, is it alright to use it in this case? I'm going to buy some natural yoghurt too, later. I have yoghurt and Actimel, but flavored.

Edit: Actually, she's drinking more than usual. Her poops are really small, too.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

How much yoghurt should I give her? I finally got it, no colorants. no flavorers.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla, if you look down her throat, do you see anything? If she has canker, it could be causing the seeds to not go down. They could be stuck there. Look really good with a flash light.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Ahh, no, wait, I have another thing. Some tubes, but for mammals T_T. Isn't there another option? Some natural probiotic?
> 
> No, I don't offer her enough seeds to get her sick. Also I didn't offer any yesterday, I think? Or at least not at night.


If you don't offer her seeds, then what is she eating?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Is her crop emtying properly Pawbla? After a 14 day course of Metronidazole so recently she shouldn't have canker.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

The yoghurt was bad, so I couldn't give it to her.



Jay3 said:


> If you don't offer her seeds, then what is she eating?


I don't offer her enough SAFFLOWER seeds, that was what we were talking about. Sorry, I forgot the "safflower" in there :3.

I don't see anything in her throat and her crops is emptying. Actually... it's empty right now. But she was sleeping until recently.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you keeping her inside? Keep her warm. If she isn't eating, can you feed her formula?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She is eating, that's why the weight loss is so weird.
Yes, I'm keeping her inside. We're with really high temperatures anyways, 25 to 30 celsius. It is said that tomorrow it'll be 27 and on friday 32.
Her poops are solid and slightly bigger, still green.
Could the high temperatures (sudden change) be responsible of this?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Could the high temperatures (sudden change) be responsible of this?



No. Sounds like she is sick.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> No. Sounds like she is sick.


Sorry, I expressed myself wrongly. I meant, could the temperature change be the cause of the sickness? Like, when the temp changes suddenly, our immune system weakens. Or maybe it could be one of those illnesses that come at a certain time of the year, summer in this case?
Um... I don't really know. I haven't read a lot on bird illnesses or anything, so, besides the most common illnesses, I don't know. I mean, she's been treated for canker, worms, and cocci for now. She's been having some contact (no touch, just get near) wild birds. The birds seem healthy, I know because it's the eared dove pair and now their daughter/son. Doesn't make much sense, but all is possible. There are sometimes the little sparrows, but don't get as near as the doves.
She's like with a flu, except for the weight loss. She wants to throw up but she doesn't, she puffs up randomly at times, but still eats and drinks. She does drink a lot. Is a bit less active IMO, but active enough to dislike being caged. Um... I'm trying to remember anything that could be useful, but I don't recall anything abnormal. She's been in contact with the grass. Ants? Could she eat ants? I poisoned them a few days ago, the colony is not really near but they like bird seed (that's how I located the colony, I saw those corn pieces walking around, lol). I haven't seen them in two or so days. Um... no contact with rats, mice or other feral mammals. They've been in the same room with my dogs. My dogs are vaccinated... I've heard my dog coughing and sneezing regularly today, I'm going to call a vet tomorrow. No fungus in my room I think. No poisonous plants, they only get in contact with the grass. I have seen her eating (seldomly) some pieces of grass, could that be an indicator of something?
She doesn't lay on her chest/belly anymore, too.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh, just noticed something. She was treated back in November, right?
From then she's been eating a cardinal mix, which includes crushed corn. Reading a thread I saw it said it causes canker. Could she become infected from it? I could keep the mix for like a week or so, and I stored it in my drawer, inside a plastic bag (the feed was bagged to, but that bag was opened). I changed to the pigeon mix not long ago. But it might have been too late for that... or so? Do you think she has canker? Should I wait to see if there are any more symptoms before declaring her sick with canker?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Could she become infected from it?


The corn doesn't carry infection, the suspicion is that it could scratch the membrane of the mouth and that a nodule would attactch itelf...something like that, but there would have to be trichomonads, and possibly a heavy burden, for that to happen.

Treating for too long with Metronidazole can cause damage, treating too frequently could have the same effect. If you must treat for canker again it would be better to use a remedy other than metronidazole.
These are the symptoms of canker:

SYMPTOMS IN SQUABS

Not all these symptoms will be present in each case. The symptoms appear 6 days after infection.

Visible lump in the neck or navel area.
Stretched skin over site of lesion.
Cheesy growth in mouth or throat.
Patches of baldness around neck and mouth .
Slow blinking
Ruffled feathers
Loose watery droppings
Excessive thirst
Loss of appetite
Loss of weight


SYMPTOMS IN ADULTS

Not all these symptoms will be visible in each patient:

Visible lump in neck or vent
Firm yellow or brown cheesy mass in back of mouth 
Soft flat creamy white growths in throat
Inability to swallow seed
Mouth may be partially open
Birds stand upright with head high and neck straight (penguin posture)
Crop full of water
Distortion or swelling of forehead (if sinuses have been invaded)
Vomiting 
Increased mucous in the throat

BTW has she actually produced anything or has she just been going through the motions of regurgitation ?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I have Spartrix (Ronidazole I think? Or other "-zole").
No, just the motions. Like as if she was feeling bad (do these birds get migraine? hahaha). Reading this, I don't think she has canker.
I should check for lumps though, but if they are really visible I don't think she has any.
She's going into the "resting" position rather than a "penguin" posture. The difference is that she doesn't lay on the floor.
I don't think it's something this "dramatic". I am leaning towards something digestive, but simple. Something we haven't thought of first...
Do you know if giving her vitamins would help at all for the moment?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It could very well be something else. Hate to treat the bird with medicine when you don't know what to treat for. As was mentioned too many drugs aren't good either.
What else is she doing? Is she eating, drinking. Can you get a picture of her and her poop?
Is she still acting like she is trying to get something up?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Humm, haven't seen her doing it again. She's eating and drinking.
I don't want to treat her if we don't know what for.

Sure:
Poop.
Pigeon 1, Pigeon 2, Pigeon 3, Pigeon 4.
Pigeon Caged 1, Pigeon Caged 2, Pigeon Caged 3, Pigeon Caged 4.
As you can see she does look more or less normal.

I have to get her a name, lol. I just can't think of a good one.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pawbla said:


> Humm, haven't seen her doing it again. She's eating and drinking.
> *I don't want to treat her if we don't know what for.*
> 
> Sure:
> ...



I agree with not treating her if you don't know what the problem may be. Do her poops look the same when she is outside of the cage? She is at an age where she wants to be out and with you...the age when young birds are exploring. This is just a possibility...do you think she is stressed in the cage when she is separated from you? 
Also, I'm wondering if the cage is large enough for her to fully stand up although that may just be the way the picture was taken.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She can fully stand up. She does prefer to be out of the cage... but that's pretty obvious. I'm getting them a new cage asap though.
I think she's more stressed when she's separated from the other bird. They kinda ignore me. I need to make them the diapers so my mom won't complain at me when I take them out. I can't take them out for too long because of her, actually, she forbid me to do so.
I think the poops look the same.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla, don't mean to sound negative, but that cage is really small for a bird that doesn't get out much. They need to be able to move around and fully flap their wings, and live. Looks like they're in solitary confinement.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sounds like you are in a tough spot with your mom. That's too bad...I'm very sorry.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I know. (On the other side, you haven't seen how long it is and the perspective is tricky, so it's not as small as it seems, but it's small anyways). She got hard on this last week, it was a really big argument and I frankly don't want to remember it. I was afraid she'd just kick them out at that moment. I had to accept it.
I take them out while she's not at home, that means most of the times only in the mornings and like an hour at evening (with the excuse of "they haven't gone out today").
But she said that tomorrow she'd sew the cloth for the diapers (I truly can't sew. I don't know why, but I tried to do these diapers a thousand times and I can't!), so all that would be left for me is to sew the elastic part of them and they would be able to go out all day. Her problem is with the poops, not anything else. Even though I clean daily, she says she is the one who cleans :/. My mom has some issues, definitely >.>...
I hope that tomorrow is the last day of their confinement!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Do you think she's just depressed for her time outside being cut down?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, I know you're trying and doing the best you can. Maybe it will be better with the diapers. That I want to see pics of. LOL. That should be cute.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How much is she eating? Is she still puffed up? What do you feed her Pawbla?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Diapers means no poop so on that side I think my mom will have no problem, haha. The diaper cloth is horrible, it's one that just deserves to be pooped on.

She's eating less than normal. She does not fly to the food. Generally both fly straight to the cage (hers, that opens in a way that the whole "roof" is removed). But she does eat, though. I feed her a pigeon mix, insectivorous birds pellets, and I throw safflower to the mix. The pic of the pigeon mix is back there, because I don't know exactly what it contains. She seems to prefer pellets and smaller seeds.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She's puffed up mostly when caged, but I've seen her feathers a bit "rebel" when she was on my table, too.










I think I'll be switching back to the cardinal mix for her, because she seemed to like it better.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not sure what's wrong.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Argh. It makes me mad to not know what's wrong :/. I hope, really hope, she's depressed from the cage thing. That is an easy fix, at least, haha! Doubtful though.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just keep an eye on her, and lets see how she is looking tomorrow. Maybe she'll be doing better. Try to measure her food, and see how much she is eating. And the water too. They like safflower or split peas, and many of mine like lentils. They sell them with the split peas. Dry in a bag. Cheap. And popcorn. Not popped. Do you ever give them finely chopped carrots? Or just shred them. And Mine like greens, which I chop up.They might like these things, and they are good for them. I don't remember if you add apple cider vinegar to their water once or twice a week. About a Tablespoon to a gallon. You can pierce or slice a garlic clove, and drop it into a quart of water. Let it soak and give them the water once a week. Just some things you could offer them.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

ACV, I did a bit ago. Two days ago I think.
I don't give them anything else besides the food because I don't know what to give them. I don't know if something could be harmful or not, I remember there was something (that I didn't expect) that was bad for budgies, but was some normal sort of veggies. Pigeons have a much more delicate system, so I wasn't going to throw anything at them randomly .
Lentils cooked or not?
Popcorn isn't, well, corn? I make popcorn with corn (dried, like the one from the food).
Carrots? I think I have carrots for tomorrow. Saturday, I'll buy them some greens. Which kind? Like lettuce? Arugula? Can they eat tomatoes?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well popcorn is smaller kernels, so the birds usually like them lots better. Lentils get mixed into the seed mixture dry. I recently found red lentils also, which are even smaller, and some of mine like those. They all like something different, just like little kids. And I guess adults for that matter. LOL. Mine like romaine lettuce chopped up, or sometimes I buy a packaged mix of different kinds of lettuce. They will all pick out their favorite. I wouldn't bother with tomatoes. Lots of mine also like bean sprouts, chopped. I saw a video on U-Tube where he gave his birds swiss chard whole, and they pulled it apart and ate it all. Mine prefer theirs chopped, and the swiss chard didn't go over so well here. Spinach is very good for them, but mine didn't like it as well either. Probably because it was something new. Sometimes it takes a while for them to get used to the idea of a new food. So the younger you start with the veggies, the better. That way, it won't seem strange to them. Once of twice a week would be nice. Lots of vitamins and minerals. Let me know how it goes. I add split peas to the seed mix, and recently found whole peas, dry. They like those, and they are different sizes mixed in for the tastes of the different birds. Variety is always good. That way you are more sure that they are getting what they need. Remember that sometimes they just have to get used to something new before they will even try it, so keep trying and be patient with them. Good luck.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I chopped some carrot today, they seemed more or less interested. But they are always more interested in the big pieces that they can't swallow than the ones they can xD.
Ok, I'll buy them some variety, and throw them there once in a while. I think I have lentils somewhere too. And I'll get them some vitamins besides that.
Thanks for everything!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> I chopped some carrot today, they seemed more or less interested. But they are always more interested in the big pieces that they can't swallow than the ones they can xD.
> Ok, I'll buy them some variety, and throw them there once in a while. I think I have lentils somewhere too. And I'll get them some vitamins besides that.
> Thanks for everything!


It'll be fun finding new things they like, and knowing that you're making them healthier for it.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah .
Lettuce hasn't had much success. They prefer carrots (because of the color maybe?).

Gave them the yoghurt (bought another one) too n.n. I think it can be useful for the other pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Yeah .
> Lettuce hasn't had much success. They prefer carrots (because of the color maybe?).
> 
> Gave them the yoghurt (bought another one) too n.n. I think it can be useful for the other pigeon.


Did you cut up the lettuce? It's funny. Some of mine prefer one, and some the other. Some of them like defrosted peas and corn mixed in also.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Of course, I can't imagine them trying to chew it or cut it like parrots, haha!
I'm going to buy peas and corn next time I go to the supermarket, when I got there yesterday they were closing (it was more like a small family thing rather than a supermarket).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here's a picture of their veggies, and often I sprinkle it with defrosted peas and corn. They all like something different. And mine like it chopped into bite sized pieces. Spoiled.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Surely spoiled, haha.
What is the green and purple thing?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Surely spoiled, haha.
> What is the green and purple thing?


Different kinds of lettuce. Sometimes I buy a spring mix, and it has different kinds. That way they get a variety.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Ahh, yeah. I should try again with lettuce, maybe they just weren't hungry when I offered it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Ahh, yeah. I should try again with lettuce, maybe they just weren't hungry when I offered it.


They just have to try it and get used to it.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Okay ^^.

WHEW, you won't imagine how nice it was to see brown-ish, solid poop today coming from her, all over my floor. I'm really thinking this is just depression from the caging. She was pretty much all day outside, because when my mom complained I just asked "well, did you sew what I asked for?", and she was like "umm no, I forgot". So she couldn't complain much, it takes her like half an hour max and all she did today was to be at the beach. Heh.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

She seems to hate the diapers :/.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Of course she does. Would you like something tied around you? They have to get used to them.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Lol, I know. But I'm afraid she'll get hurt while she does. The first time I put it on, she fell from my table. Now it'll be only on the floor, haha.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ooohhh!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I kinda thought the reaction would be... milder than that.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LOL. The poor thing is probably wondering what in the world you are strapping onto her.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Sure, I wouldn't understand it either. Maybe it's really uncomfortable, I don't know.
Do you think it'll work better if I rewarded her with food every time I put the diaper on?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Sure, I wouldn't understand it either. Maybe it's really uncomfortable, I don't know.
> Do you think it'll work better if I rewarded her with food every time I put the diaper on?


You can try, but she'll get used to it.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

How much time do I leave it on for the first times? I got kinda scared, she looked like a bird with serious neurological problems when she had it on O.O. I left it on for some minutes but just that.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't use them. I would go by how upset she was. But you need to leave it on for a while anyway, so she'll get used to it. Kinda like a dog getting used to a collar and lead.


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