# Squabby.



## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I just figured I'd randomly share a slight update on my ferals that I wrote about a long time ago in the thread 'Balcony pigeon story'. Since Scruffy's untimely death, his mate, Belle, shacked up with my favourite, Grey, and just very recently they've had at least one chick together.

I got to peek in on the little fuzzball today, while the parents were both off flying. There looked to only be one, but the chick is so chubby that it may well have been sitting on its poor sibling. It's got the biggest eyes I've ever seen and its white down feathers are very noticeable over its face, making it look like someone spilled flour on the poor thing. 

When I first looked in, the baby was lying on its side in the nest, and that scared me a little because I don't usually see pigeons like that. I thought it might've been injured or died, but it immediately proved me wrong upon sighting me and righted itself, peeping and beginning to raise its wings as if it expected food from me.

So, just sharing my 'aww' moment.  Good luck, squabby!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Draykie,

Good to hear from you and thanks for sharing.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Draykie, good to read the update. I know you'll keep a close eye on the baby. Hope you can get some pictures.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Alright, I'm going to need a bit of help, guys.

There are two babies. The father is MIA and likely dead, while the mother took up with an already-involved cock to feed them enough. However, pest control has been coming door-to-door, asking to check out peoples' balconies for cleaning purposes, nest removal, and inspection for nesting spots/feeding. While I was at work, my dad managed to deter the Orkin guys from coming in and seeing the nest box we had outside, then brought it into the apartment when they left.

The aforementioned cock, after the babies were reintroduced to the outside, actually attempted to kill them both by pecking viciously at them, where before he'd feed them and watch over them. The mother didn't get a chance to do anything, nor did she try, so I'm a little worried if they have a human smell on them that won't go away now.

What I need to know is how to feed them, how to reduce the poop stink they're radiating, and how to bathe them. They're caked in poo and very loud and hungry, although quite fat. I have a syringe with rubber tubing that Ron sent me a while back for Bandit and I have powdered Kaytee Exact, also the stuff he sent - is it possible to water down the Kaytee to make it into a mushy, slurry sort of thing, and then tube feed it to them?


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi drakie,

You can mix the kaytee exact into a slurry to tube feed the babies with. I'm a syringe feeder myself-never done the tube feeding thing, the tube feeders should be along to instruct you. You'll want to gently open the babies beaks when you feed them (pigeons don't gape). Fill their crops (this is the pouch on their throat) with food until they are full. The crop should be squishy like a water balloon not taut. Allow the crop to empty before feeding them again. The food should be tepid (like room temp), not cold and not hot. 

Overfeeding (not allowing the crop to empty, or overfilling) can result in an impacted or sour crop and be fatal to the baby. The sour crop can be treated by feeding warm (not hot) water (be careful the baby does not inhale it) and gently messaging the crop. You could empty the crop, but this is much ahrder on you and the chick and should be reserved for an ememgency.

If it is hard to get the food into the babies you can use the method of soaking dog kibble in water until soft, and gently inserting a bite sized bit into the babies beak and allowing the baby to swallow. I start feeding this way after ~3 wks (syringe feeding is a pain).

You probably allready know this...but.
You'll want to make the food fresh for each feeding and rinse out the syringe to avoid poisoning the chicks with spoiled food. Be very careful with soap, as soap poisoning can kill a bird. And keep the babies warm (if applicable, depending on temps in your area) with a heating pad set on low.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

JGregg,

Thanks for the reply. I've been syringe-feeding as well, because tube-feeding never has seemed to be too successful for me. Is there any technique to opening a baby's beak, though? Every time I try, he/she squirms like mad and pulls free, and doesn't seem terribly happy with my attempts.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I gently hold the baby (the baby is sitting on a surface like a table, but don't let the baby get off the edge)with my left hand and open the beak with my right hand. Then I keep the beak open with my left hand while holding the baby and reach for the food.

The easiest way would be to make a "burrito" out of the baby by gently wrapping it in a towel or shirt to keep the little one from wiggiling around so much.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I think I just haven't really gotten the technique down too well.

How exactly do you open the beak without making the squeaker squirm so much? If I pinch gently to keep it open, on the rare chance that it'll even let me open it, it throws a fit and shakes its head wildly so that I can't hold onto it anymore without risking harm to its beak or face. I've tried prying open the upper, then the lower beak, but it doesn't like this either, and the other way around.

I tried syringe-feeding one of them little by little over the course of an hour, and I don't think it got very much out of the experience, while its sibling got nohting at all just yet. They haven't eaten (except for the syringe-fed one; it got a little bit) for around seven hours now. Is it at all possible to re-introduce the babies to the cock and their mother without them being angry at the two of them? While Mom seemed ready to go back and feed the babies, the male only seemed interested in pecking at their heads when they came running at him in hunger, out of their nest. Maybe he was just punishing that one for leaving the nest?


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## MellissaG (Apr 18, 2007)

Hey try this, I tested it out recently and it worked perfectly... ive tube fed baby birds before... always with a big mess and a really annoyed baby bird, but this worked really well. 

I used a small tube I had on hand (actually, a long narrow lid to a perfume bottle) , rubber band, and one from a pack of antibacterial disposable dish cloths you can get for really cheap -- they are almost 'netted', -- and i rinsed it a lot to make sure there was no chemical or soapy substance on it.. everything was good, so I went ahead, and it was the easiest feeding ive ever done! 

www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

*although it does say you can use a piece of rubber as well, like from a balloon as they suggest. But you could also use a piece of cloth from an old thin texture but strongly knitted fabric, like from an old cotton shirt too. Basically something to poke a hoke in, small/big enough for the beak to go through without too much food falling out.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Draykie,

I thought I would post some more links for you that may be of help in your learning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bin7rhSLQss
http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL
http://www.birdhealth.com.au/bird/er/erformula.html
http://pigeoncote.com/vet/feedbaby/feedbaby.htm
http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon1.html
http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/loft/articles/re-hydrate.pdf
http://birds2grow.com/art-croptube.html
http://www.cagenbird.com/a04.htm
http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/birdinformation/medicatingorally.php

It would be best to let the mother, and hopefully the step-father, finish rearing them without too much intervention if it can be helped. To help in this manner, which I am sure you may already be doing, is that you can provide water and seeds nearby for the adults and when the kids get to about three weeks spread a little seeds close to them so they can start to learn to self-feed quicker.

I hope this helps a little and good luck,

Ron


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

We managed to re-introduce the babies to their parents early this morning, and the mother immediately took to feeding them. The male, on the other hand, went in and was pecking them again, so we had to scare him out, and he's come back since, but he'll only approach the doorway to the box and run away now. The squeakers are pretty old, chubby, and have only a bit of pinfeathers left, so I'm giving them about a week before they're on the move. Hope everyone can hold out that long for them.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I don't know about pigeons, but if the male hasn't been raising them from hatching he may "know" they aren't his and are just getting rid of them so he can work on Mama  
Good luck with the babies.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

MellissaG said:


> Hey try this, I tested it out recently and it worked perfectly... ive tube fed baby birds before... always with a big mess and a really annoyed baby bird, but this worked really well.
> 
> I used a small tube I had on hand (actually, a long narrow lid to a perfume bottle) , rubber band, and one from a pack of antibacterial disposable dish cloths you can get for really cheap -- they are almost 'netted', -- and i rinsed it a lot to make sure there was no chemical or soapy substance on it.. everything was good, so I went ahead, and it was the easiest feeding ive ever done!
> 
> ...



Mellissa...that is ONE GREAT FEEDING DEMO! I have saved it to my Favorites! I know there are various methods (Phil likes to use a baby nipple, which I think is great too!)

For those who are novices, your instructions will be a godsend!!!

Thank you sooooo much for posting. The pictures are just perfect!

LOVE and HUGS

Shi & Mr. Squeaks


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

flitsnowzoom said:


> I don't know about pigeons, but if the male hasn't been raising them from hatching he may "know" they aren't his and are just getting rid of them so he can work on Mama
> Good luck with the babies.


That's what was really weird about what Mom did. She found this male, who's already involved with another hen, and began kissing him to take his food from him and bring it back to her chicks. When he refused to give her anymore, she'd preen his feathers and seemed almost like she was seducing him into giving her more - at which point, he followed her, guarded her, and started to frequent visits to the nest to feed the babies multiple times a day. Naughty little girl I have!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

draykie said:


> That's what was really weird about what Mom did. She found this male, who's already involved with another hen, and began kissing him to take his food from him and bring it back to her chicks. When he refused to give her anymore, she'd preen his feathers and seemed almost like she was seducing him into giving her more - at which point, he followed her, guarded her, and started to frequent visits to the nest to feed the babies multiple times a day. Naughty little girl I have!



A mother's love knows no bounds!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

mr squeaks said:


> A mother's love knows no bounds!


I second that!


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

In one of the most heartbreaking sights I've ever had the misfortune to witness, the step-father died from poisoning today in front of our apartment. He convulsed violently for over an hour, choked, and had his mate by his side, kissing him until she was scared off by his movements. While that does mean the babies may not be pecked anymore (at least by him), it was still awful and saddening to witness the neighbourhood's oldest pigeon die in such an agonizingly slow manner.

In brighter news though, Grey's chicks have developed some pretty stylish pants. They have long feathers over their feet and look like Clydesdale horses.  Do those fall off after a while or are those a sign of the babies possibly being tumblers? Neither of the parents had feet like this, but Grey used to dive off our balcony and tumble all the way to ground, nearly hitting it, before picking up and flying straight.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm so very sorry for your pigeon family and you  I know how hard you've tried to keep them safe.
Is there any way you can bring the rest of the family in so they stand a better chance?
Prayers and feather hugs.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm heart broken over your situation.Have there been other deaths? Terrible, helpless thing to witness. No creature deserves such a fate.

The good news is that the babies should keep their lovey feather pants.
I agree that if there is any way you could bring the rest of the family in, this would be the time. That being said, I realized doing so could be very difficult for the mom.
Maybe there is someone in your area on the forum that could take them so they would be safe.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Catching the adults is impossible, since they're still healthy and very able to get away from any attempts to get them inside. While I could easily grab the babies, the last time I did that, there was an issue over the parents accepting them again and I don't want them to end up going through that and starving, as I'm not too well-versed in feeding them constantly. On the bright side, Mom is very pampered and in some two weeks or so of poisoning, she apparently hasn't eaten a bite. I'm hoping she and the others in the area will make it through all this, but what with pigeons migrating from other neighbourhoods to here because of the new 'food supply', I don't think that's the only poisoning death I'll ever have to watch. 

If the mother dies, which I really hope she doesn't for obvious reasons, we do plan to take the babies inside and try to help them out - or, at least, to get them off to a better home where they stand more of a chance.

Along a different line, though -- if these babies are tumblers, is there a good chance of survival when they begin to fly? I've read that tumblers are susceptible to airborne seizures that induce their distinct flight patterns and that they can end up being fatal if they get too severe. Are they going to have a chance even if they don't eat the poison or anything?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

It is a shame that the people who ordered the poisoning and those that put it out can't witness the agonizing death you saw. 

I am so sorry.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Actually I spoke to a "pigeon expert" pest control service guy. He does not use in-humane methods, as he said it is horrible. They KNOW exactly what happens to the birds as they have to stay in the area, until all birds can be picked up and removed from the "scene of their crime." That is the protocal they have to use if they are licensed to use poison. The birds are usually picked up before the average person notices.

It's absolutely the worst death for any bird or creature to have to go thru, and everyone needs to see the truth about poisoning, and you should share it with anyone willing to listen. 

I would surely secure the youngsters and any other bird that won't stress and relocate them all.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

The mom's laid eggs again, which I realize they do even if there is no male to fertilize them, and as such, if they won't hatch. She's also sitting on them and coming out for food to feed the chicks only sparingly, though - does sitting on them mean they are fertilized, or do they do that anyway?


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Draykie,

These eggs may very well be fertile. It may be best to remove and hard boil these eggs (add to cold water and bring to a boil, so they don't crack), let them cool to slightly warm before returning them. I don't think now is the best time to be putting more young birds in danger from poisoning.

Ron


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

That's why I was worried. I don't want her to have anymore chicks here, at least not while the poisoning situation is going on. I knew hens laid eggs regularly even without a male, but the fact that she is sitting on them worries me a little. I'll see about boiling them, as they were just freshly laid as far as I know, so there ought not to be any developing embyro inside yet.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

draykie said:


> That's why I was worried. I don't want her to have anymore chicks here, at least not while the poisoning situation is going on.* I knew hens laid eggs regularly even without a male, but the fact that she is sitting on them worries me a little. *I'll see about boiling them, as they were just freshly laid as far as I know, so there ought not to be any developing embyro inside yet.


Hens lay eggs only when they think they are in love, when they are stimulated by petting them on their back, and/or when they have a mate. They are only fertile when they actually have a mate. I have several hens who think they are in love with me, and will lay eggs.

Other then that they normally do not lay eggs. 

You definitely should take her eggs away immediately and replace them.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

With a little bit of panic from the babies and some surprise from Mom, her eggs have been removed and I'm currently waiting for them to cool from the hard boiling before I replace them.

Now you've just made me curious though, Treesa.  I wonder if she still believes her mate is alive, if she was 'in love' with the stepfather that was poisoned, or if she's got a thing for me. Hmm!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

draykie said:


> With a little bit of panic from the babies and some surprise from Mom, her eggs have been removed and I'm currently waiting for them to cool from the hard boiling before I replace them.
> 
> Now you've just made me curious though, Treesa.  I wonder if she still believes her mate is alive, if she was 'in love' with the stepfather that was poisoned, or if she's got a thing for me. Hmm!


They may have mated about 5 to 10 days prior to her laying these eggs when he was still alive.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

That may have been possible when I wasn't watching, actually. The male is a little odd, in that he's mated with other hens while 'married' to his own mate, and constantly. But during the time I observed them, all she was able to get out of him was a little food after she flattered him with a bunch of neck-kisses. She's devious like that.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Just a small update. 

Everyone's doing fine. The babies are learning to fly, Mom still sits on the hard-boiled egg, and she has yet to lay her second if it's coming. I'm pretty sure there is no poison left on the roof anymore. While it's sad because that's likely due to it being all eaten, it also means that my squabbies won't get any of it. The pest control guys have been coming out every Thursday for the past 2-3 weeks and they didn't come today, so maybe they're done and everyone can settle just with the hawks. The hawks seem to be getting old, too -- I watched one try to catch a pigeon today and it just completely missed its dive and the entire line that was sitting on the apartment and went home. 

Today, one of the babies got a little adventurous and decided to try to fly. It's the bigger of the two, who I think is a male, and he got up onto one of the chairs on my balcony. Then, his sister found Mom and started choking her dry, while the chubby guy couldn't figure out how to get back down. His wings were going crazy and he was crying, so he eventually stumbled and flapped his way back down to the floor before feeding time was over. Hilarity ensued.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

It sure is nice to get a victory every once and again! 
Glad to hear the babies are trying out their wings a bit and getting a bit adventurous. I'm jealous, everybody here has their own pigeons and all I have are visitors (pout, pout).


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Here, they started off as visitors as well. You just need a barbecue and a nice, warm tarp over it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

flitsnowzoom said:


> It sure is nice to get a victory every once and again!
> Glad to hear the babies are trying out their wings a bit and getting a bit adventurous. I'm jealous, everybody here has their own pigeons and all I have are visitors (pout, pout).


I can remedy that for you. Just tell me where to ship them and how many.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

draykie said:


> Here, they started off as visitors as well. You just need a barbecue and a nice, warm tarp over it.


Hah! All I get under my barbeque are some very nasty wasps!


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm suddenly a bit happier that it's usually too cold on the top floor of a southwestern Canadian apartment for hives to be built.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Another small update.

Still no sign of the Orkin guys. Hooray. We had bad rain for the past two days as well, so hopefully, if there -is- any poison left, it's very diluted or washed away now.

In other news, the babies are almost ready to get out. They've already mastered flying to the top of our balcony bar and one even made it up to the roof already, with Mom's encouragement. Mom also rewards the babies when they fly higher, kissing them and feeding them, but the big one - who is most definitely male - won't have any of the kissing. He's really begun to take on a macho image, because he seems embarrassed by his mom kissing him around the neck, and kept an older hen out of the house by blocking her off earlier today. He's also been helping his smaller sibling, who is probably a girl, find the water fountain and food on our balcony, and watching over her while she eats, drinks, and flies.

They grow up so fast.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good news all the way around, Draykie! Thanks for the update!

Terry


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Are pigeons ever openly fascinated with the unusual traits of others?

What I mean is that there's this one pigeon, a very small male or a young hen, that seems to be constantly infatuated with one of the babies and his little feather pants. It'll go up to him, looking him over closely, then start pecking lightly at his feet. Of course, he doesn't enjoy this much, and he headbutted it today in frantic self-defence. Considering the fact that neither I nor I think the headbutted pigeon had ever seen a bird headbutt someone, it was funny in a surprising sort of way. He's becoming a territorial brat way too quickly.


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