# wire size



## shadowoak (Mar 19, 2011)

any comments or answers . i want to put some new wire mesh around my loft aviary section . my local hardware store has some one by two inch welded wire that looks good . im wondering if this is small enough . the plans call for one by one inch but the store has to special order & the 1x 1 " only come in 100 ' rolls . the one by two looks good to me ? but im new to pigeons and it seems there are a lot of details that can make a difference . this mesh will not be for the floor either . thanks for your help shadowoak


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

hi Shadowoak, 1/4 or 1/2 inch is best. Anything smaller than that will make them vulnerable to rats, mice, snakes, etc. Rat and mice droppings cause Salmonella, not to mention...rats will kill the birds.
You also want to make sure nothing can tunnel underneath.
My flight cage is 'wrapped' with 1/4 and 1/2 in welded mesh.....even underground. I got my wire at 'Home Depot", 50 foot roll


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

1/2 inch will do...


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## mill pigeon (Apr 2, 2008)

i used 3/4 x 3/4 rubber coated wire and it works great


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm overly cautious ever since I made wire size choice mistakes with my chickens- and the raccoons got em. Even after I switched to 19 gauge 1/4" hardware cloth, they managed to violate the integrity of the enclosure by getting in at the edges. 

So, I use the 1/4", and then nail down a strip of wood all the way around, covering all seams, all edges. This discourages them from trying to get in, because they do not find a weak spot to pick at. And yeah- rats and mice, ugh- they can squeeze therough tiny spots. Weasels can get through a hole the size of a quarter! 

But, I think one thing to consider is whether or not the aviary- or anything you are enclosing- can be closed up securely at night, when the bad guys come looking for dinner. 

But, my approach is ultra secure- many levels of defense, because the whole situation with them eating my chickens sucked.

Also- depends on where you live, and what the predators are.


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## shadowoak (Mar 19, 2011)

thanks for all the feed back it helps
shadowoak


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please take the advise of those that have recommended 1/4-1/2 inch hardware cloth. The extra cost is worth it in the long run. So many of us have learned the hard way and I hope you don't need to lean that way as well.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Oh- and I found the best deal recently was through Ace Hardware, because if they don't have what you want in the store, you can have it delivered to your local store free. Anyway, I shopped around a lot, and that was where I found the best price.


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## shadowoak (Mar 19, 2011)

thanks to all im getting the 1/2" the lager mesh i was thinking of getting was actually more expensive anyway.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

I found 1/2"X1" Galvanized WELDED WIRE #14Gauge the best, strongest there is & will keep most Predators out. So muck stronger than !/2x1/2 & 1/4 X1/4.. I even make my Landing Board Bottoms with this. Best I have found in 50yrs. of Racing, Rollers, & Birds in general.. Good Luck, Happy


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Happy said:


> I found 1/2"X1" Galvanized WELDED WIRE #14Gauge the best, strongest there is & will keep most Predators out. So muck stronger than !/2x1/2 & 1/4 X1/4.. I even make my Landing Board Bottoms with this. Best I have found in 50yrs. of Racing, Rollers, & Birds in general.. Good Luck, Happy


I think we also need to take into consideration *where* the flight cage/aviary is located. If its up off the ground, on the side of a racing loft I suppose 1/2 X 1" would be ok.
I have a 10 X 12' walk-in flight cage attached to the front of the loft, and keep the loft door open 24/7 so the birds can go in and out of the flight cage. I also keep their drinking/bath water in the flight cage to keep the loft dry.
If I had anything larger than 1/2" wire, the mice could walk right in 
I also planted peppermint around the loft......rodents don't like peppermint 
I lost roughly 27 birds in my old loft about 4 years ago to Norway (brown) Rats. I made it my mission to never let that happen again! And I tell people so it hopefully doesn't happen to them


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Is this OK?: 
http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/187720

Here we have options for 50x50mm 25x25mm, 13x13mm and 6x6mm.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

However only 13x13mm is available in rolls.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

newbie001 said:


> Is this OK?:
> http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/187720
> 
> Here we have options for 50x50mm 25x25mm, 13x13mm and 6x6mm.


Looks to small to me. All in what you want. I like 1/2 x 1/2 personally.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

billyr70 said:


> Looks to small to me. All in what you want. I like 1/2 x 1/2 personally.


So there seems to be a difference of opinion over 6mm (1/4) and 13mm (1/2), whilst anything bigger might be pushing it in terms of mice getting in. 

However, other than the size issue, is this the correct stuff in terms of protection/safety of the birds?


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MESH-NETT...terials_ET&hash=item4162ca899e#ht_2118wt_1198 

What about this one?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That stuff looks like screening. Holes are too small. The suns UV rays are filtered out with screening. The birds wouldn't get the sun shine they need for vitamin D3. 19 gauge 1/2 inch hardware cloth is good. And as someone has mentioned, covering the rough outside edge with trim is a real good idea.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> That stuff looks like screening. Holes are too small. The suns UV rays are filtered out with screening. The birds wouldn't get the sun shine they need for vitamin D3. 19 gauge 1/2 inch hardware cloth is good. And as someone has mentioned, covering the rough outside edge with trim is a real good idea.


Are you referring to the 6mm link or the second link? 

Also, does it matter which colour I paint the inside/outside of the loft? At the moment its dark brown but I'd prefer Cedar Red. 

Is it OK if I paint it inside too?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Are you referring to the 6mm link or the second link?
> 
> Also, does it matter which colour I paint the inside/outside of the loft? At the moment its dark brown but I'd prefer Cedar Red.
> 
> Is it OK if I paint it inside too?


I'm sorry, I was referring to the first link. The second one is hardware cloth.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just remember that dark colors suck up the heat more, so depending on where you live, you may want a lighter color to reflect it. Color choice is up to you. As for the inside, many paint it a color that the color of poop (that they invariably get around), will match somewhat. Looks cleaner that way, but also up to you. A lighter color is good to make the inside of the loft brighter. Some paint and some don't. I only painted the nest boxes, and am sorry I didn't do the walls, as it would be easier to clean. Live and learn.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

1/2 x 1/2 the droppings will fall through descent and i think its pretty safe. 1/4 x 1/4 the Droppings really don't drop through it at all. Good luck.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As long as the gauge is heavy enough. If not, squirrels can even chew through it.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

I have liked the 1/2 by 1 welded wire but if you read here alot you would know I just lost a bird through it by a hawk. Good news is the hawk got his head stuck and killed himself. We also had a snake get in a different cage of fantails and ate the eggs and squab last fall. The 1/2 by 1/2 or 1/4 by 1/4 is to thin of a wire. So I am having to decide big wire with 1/4 by 1/4 under it or double up the 1/2 by 1 with holes of set half way.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

honeyrobber said:


> I have liked the 1/2 by 1 welded wire but if you read here alot you would know I just lost a bird through it by a hawk. Good news is the hawk got his head stuck and killed himself. We also had a snake get in a different cage of fantails and ate the eggs and squab last fall. The 1/2 by 1/2 or 1/4 by 1/4 is to thin of a wire. So I am having to decide big wire with 1/4 by 1/4 under it or double up the 1/2 by 1 with holes of set half way.



The 1/2 X 1/2 come in different gauges. There is a 23 gauge which is too thin, but the 19 gauge is fine. And they do make it even heavier. You can probably order the heavier gauge wire in the 1/2 inch.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is the 1/2 inch 19 gauge, and it is plenty heavy enough.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

Sorry to say Jay a **** will bite right through that. I learned the hard way with rabbits. I want something like 12-14 guage and 3/8 of an inch size of holes. I have yet to find the right product to make a predator proof cage for small animals.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> This is the 1/2 inch 19 gauge, and it is plenty heavy enough.


I use the same wire for my aviary's with no problems. (They are off the ground though)


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

honeyrobber said:


> Sorry to say Jay a **** will bite right through that. I learned the hard way with rabbits. I want something like 12-14 guage and 3/8 of an inch size of holes. I have yet to find the right product to make a predator proof cage for small animals.




Really? Was it 19 gauge? I thought that was heavy enough. I don't leave it open at night though, as I still wouldn't feel safe doing that. Did the raccoon bite through the actual wire, or pull it out where it was connected?


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

It clawed/chewed right through it. It was not pulled up at the edges. The cage that happened on had a large female lop rabbit. due to her weight and her weaning offspring they stretched the wire I bit where it had some sag which I think helped the **** get a bite on it to get it started. The **** took her whole litter of 2 week old babies. The dang rabbit was bigger than the **** I caught in the live trap the next night. So yah I will not use hardware cloth as a wire for my critters. I came across something in my scrapping metals that I used for the bottoms on cages after that. A factory had an acid wash tank for their paint booth. The screen they had in the bottom of it is made of woven copper. The company that removed it folded and smashed it with a fork truck. Found out it is a copper alloy so it can not be sold as copper and it is not iron. I say it at the scrap yard off to the side and asked about it. They told me they would drop it on my trailer if I would haul it way. Wish I had more of it.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

*Uses for different Wire Gauges*

*Uses for different Wire Gauges in Chicken Wire and Wire Mesh*

Common uses of mesh and netting.

Less than 22 gauge -
Fine Stainless woven Mesh:
Material and chemical Filtration

22 gauge 
Approximately - 0.7mm
Chicken wire of 13 mm aperture:
Uses: Poultry enclosures and fruit cages, Sculpting.
Fine welded or woven mesh:
Uses: Rodent protection and wild bird feeders.

20 gauge 
Approximately - 0.9mm
Chicken wire 19mm & 25mm aperture:
Uses: Poultry enclosures, Roof thatching, Loft insulation mesh

19 gauge
Approximately - 1.0 mm
Chicken wire of 50 mm aperture:
Uses: Poultry enclosures.
Rabbit netting of 31 mm aperture:
Uses: Rabbit protection
Welded mesh 13mm – 25mm:
Uses: Small bird aviaries, pet rabbit runs etc.

18 gauge
Approximately - 1.2 mm
Chicken wire of 50 mm aperture:
Uses: Poultry enclosures.
Rabbit netting of 31 mm aperture:
Uses: Rabbit protection
Welded mesh 13mm – 25mm:
Uses: Small bird aviaries, pet rabbit runs etc.

16 gauge
Approximately - 1.6 mm
Chicken wire of 50 mm aperture:
Uses: Poultry enclosures.
Rabbit netting of 31 mm aperture:
Uses: Rabbit protection
Welded mesh 13mm – 25mm:
Uses: Small bird aviaries, pet rabbit runs etc.
Welded mesh 13– 20 mm aperture
Uses: Rodent cages and parakeet aviaries.
Welded mesh 25mm aperture
Uses: Cat Enclosures, Squirrel Protection,
Birds of Prey Aviaries. Tree guards.
Welded mesh 50 mm aperture
Uses: Garden fencing. Small-dog enclosures.
Woven Stainless steel 6 – 13mm.
Uses: Car radiator grills. Filtration,

14 gauge 
Approximately - 2 mm
Chicken wire of 50 mm aperture:
Uses: Poultry enclosures.

Welded mesh 50 mm aperture.
Uses: Garden fencing. Medium-dog enclosures,
Sheep, Deer & Goat fencing.

12 gauge
Approximately - 2.5 mm
Welded mesh 50 mm aperture:
Uses: Security Fencing, Garden fencing.
Large-dog enclosures. Sheep, Deer & Goat fencing.

10 gauge
Approximately - 3 mm
Welded mesh 50 mm aperture
Uses: Security Fencing,
Strong Garden fencing. Large-dog enclosures.

Taken from: http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Wire-Gauges-Explained-p-9.html


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Q. Which Mesh Is best for Fox Protection
A. If you wish to protect chickens/ Poultry from foxes you need to select a welded mesh in at least a 14 gauge...

Q Which is the best mesh for Cat Runs?
A. Cat runs should be made from welded wire mesh with a hole size of 25mm x 25mm with a wire size of 16 gauge or 15 gauge. This is the mesh we supply to catteries and cat recues including the RSPCA.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

So to keep a dog out you need the wire that will keep a dog in so why do we not find wire sized strong eough to keep dogs out small enough to keep mice out in the same product?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

newbie001 said:


> Q. Which Mesh Is best for Fox Protection
> A. If you wish to protect chickens/ Poultry from foxes you need to select a welded mesh in at least a 14 gauge...
> 
> Q Which is the best mesh for Cat Runs?
> A. Cat runs should be made from welded wire mesh with a hole size of 25mm x 25mm with a wire size of 16 gauge or 15 gauge. This is the mesh we supply to catteries and cat recues including the RSPCA.


This is certainly a stronger 2mm dia wire, but accrding to the table is 50mm spacing, thats 2" and far too big a hole, even a fox could get its paws through that and panic birds. Also, the birds themselves could get their head & possibly a foot trough, then get stuck in panic.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Quazar said:


> This is certainly a stronger 2mm dia wire, but accrding to the table is 50mm spacing, thats 2" and far too big a hole, even a fox could get its paws through that and panic birds. Also, the birds themselves could get their head & possibly a foot trough, then get stuck in panic.


True, I think there's a mistake. They do sell 25x25mm hole 14 gauge and state specifically it's for protection against foxes. They are quite expensive though I might add


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

honeyrobber said:


> It clawed/chewed right through it. It was not pulled up at the edges. The cage that happened on had a large female lop rabbit. due to her weight and her weaning offspring they stretched the wire I bit where it had some sag which I think helped the **** get a bite on it to get it started. The **** took her whole litter of 2 week old babies. The dang rabbit was bigger than the **** I caught in the live trap the next night. So yah I will not use hardware cloth as a wire for my critters. I came across something in my scrapping metals that I used for the bottoms on cages after that. A factory had an acid wash tank for their paint booth. The screen they had in the bottom of it is made of woven copper. The company that removed it folded and smashed it with a fork truck. Found out it is a copper alloy so it can not be sold as copper and it is not iron. I say it at the scrap yard off to the side and asked about it. They told me they would drop it on my trailer if I would haul it way. Wish I had more of it.


Do you know what gauge your rabbit hutch was made with. 
19 gauge is the heaviest I could get in the hardware cloth, and I had to order it. Didn't want to go heavier where the holes would be larger.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Do you know what gauge your rabbit hutch was made with.
> 19 gauge is the heaviest I could get in the hardware cloth, and I had to order it. Didn't want to go heavier where the holes would be larger.


If you really want a heavier gauge with smaller holes, Get a heavier guage with twice the hole size you want, then double it up offsetting the second layer by half the hole size (both horizontally & vertically). If it is a large area, you can use some very thin wire to wrap tie a few cross areas together (maybe just every foot or so) then use a soldering iron to simply heat the wire & allow a blob of solder to flow through it, effectively welding the 2panels together.
More expensive, more work, but More secure & peace of mind.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> If you really want a heavier gauge with smaller holes, Get a heavier guage with twice the hole size you want, then double it up offsetting the second layer by half the hole size (both horizontally & vertically). If it is a large area, you can use some very thin wire to wrap tie a few cross areas together (maybe just every foot or so) then use a soldering iron to simply heat the wire & allow a blob of solder to flow through it, effectively welding the 2panels together.
> More expensive, more work, but More secure & peace of mind.



Thanks Quazar. Yes, never thought about actually welding the two together that way. That could be done.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Thanks Quazar. Yes, never thought about actually welding the two together that way. That could be done.


Wouldn't something like this work out cheaper?

http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Wire-Me...es-14-gauge-1ins-x-1ins-holes-3ft-x-49ft.html


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Wouldn't something like this work out cheaper?
> 
> http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Wire-Me...es-14-gauge-1ins-x-1ins-holes-3ft-x-49ft.html


But those are 1X1 inch holes. Too large. rodents can get through, and hawks and raccoons can reach right through that.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> But those are 1X1 inch holes. Too large. rodents can get through, and hawks and raccoons can reach right through that.


Oh right. They have 16 gauge 13mmx13mm, (1/2 inch), which again might be cheaper than doubling it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Oh right. They have 16 gauge 13mmx13mm, (1/2 inch), which again might be cheaper than doubling it.


If they have that, I'd grab it fast. That would be good.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

If I could easily get 16 guage 1/2 inch I would go with it. Never seen it available. Something to look for.

I to have never thought about welding/connecting the 2 layers. But I have done what you suggest many times without conecting the 2 layers.


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