# 2011 Winners Cup One Loft Race



## SmithFamilyLoft

In these hard economic times, I thought it was a good idea on the part of Bill Hatcher to devise a race which would take the working guy's pocketbook into consideration. Now, for only a $200 entry fee, one can have a chance to see how their birds stack up on a National level, win a few coins, and without breaking the bank ! 

The new format for 2011 !



http://www.winnerscupusa.com/

2011 Racing Schedule


* Team consists of 3 birds / NO LIMIT on teams entered
* 3 races: 150 200 300 * optional Ironclad 400 125.00 entry
* 100 dollar perch fee per bird
* *200 dollar entry fee per bird* 
* 10% cut on capitol / pools
* Points system / Champion Bird & Champion Breeder
* pools paid in clocking order
* Birds on "drop" share drop prize but capitol is paid out in
clocking order.
* Races begin October 1st.
* no auction no buyback
* flying East or West, to be determined
* All birds must be activated 2 weeks prior to the 150
* Accepting birds February 15th to May 15th. Replacements
until May 15th. Constant inventory/ birds chipped on arrival
* 10th flight removed / light system used

http://www.winnerscupusa.com/


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## bbcdon

I am definitely in for 2011. Thanks for the news Warren.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bbcdon said:


> I am definitely in for 2011. Thanks for the news Warren.


Yeah just think of it, for less then a $1 a day, one can send one of their birds to the BIG time, and find out how really good their birds are. And if they are even 1/2 as good, as we think they are, then perhaps we will be the ones taking home the prize !  This is truly an opportunity for the working person to test their birds without breaking the bank. And perhaps most importantly, this is not simply some inexpensive event that someone thought up to make their house payments. This is an establsihed world class event, at local combine type prices. Not being able to afford the entry fee, is now no longer a valid excuse. At less then a $1 a day, even someone with a very small budget can afford to enter this event. So...get ready !!


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## Kastle Loft

Relatively speaking, these fees are reasonable when compared to many of the others. 

But really, a $100 perch fee? Does it really cost $100 to house, feed, medicate and train ONE bird for nine months? Personally, I think "perch fees" are a racket. I know that's how the race operator makes much of their money, but lets call it what it is: A Manager's fee, or a Handler's fee. I know why they won't be labeled as such, 'cause then people might start considering how over-priced those fees are.

Now I don't mind a person making some $$ for their hard work, but a lot of these races also take cuts from pools, auctions, etc. I guess it's the whole concept of a "perch fee" that bothers me in that we're supposed to believe that it takes that much money to take care of one bird.


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## bbcdon

Not to argue with you, but you also have to take into consideration the* time *that the handler spends feeding, medicating, training, transportation costs, etc. I am entering this race for several reasons. It is a reputable event, I get to see how my birds perform against the *"BIG BOYS"*, the chance of collecting a few coins, and I believe that the fees are very reasonable.


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## g0ldenb0y55

The fees are reasonable for this particular event. I'll have to start another piggy bank for this one!


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## Kastle Loft

bbcdon said:


> Not to argue with you, but you also have to take into consideration the* time *that the handler spends feeding, medicating, training, transportation costs, etc. I am entering this race for several reasons. It is a reputable event, I get to see how my birds perform against the *"BIG BOYS"*, the chance of collecting a few coins, and I believe that the fees are very reasonable.


Yeah, I know, that's why I said I don't mind the managers making a little money for their hard work (time). But shouldn't the fees go DOWN with the more birds you have? $100 (or more) for one bird? Really? 

I guess I'll go do the math now so I can decide if I really should have publicly ranted


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## bbcdon

Some of the races do have a discount on the perch fees when you reach a certain level. It is strictly up to the individual to enter the race or not. And also, if you look at it from another perspective, the person who can only enter a small number of birds does not get a discount, and the person who has the financial resources to enter more birds does get a discount.


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## Crazy Pete

I searched the site and could not find out how many birds they would take, or what the pay out would be.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

dstephenson said:


> Yeah, I know, that's why I said I don't mind the managers making a little money for their hard work (time). But shouldn't the fees go DOWN with the more birds you have? $100 (or more) for one bird? Really?
> 
> I guess I'll go do the math now so I can decide if I really should have publicly ranted


 Not that I want to be in the position of carrying the water for the One Loft Race Industry, but do you see the loft for this *Winners Cup* event ? (See my first post on this thread). I don't know if Bill Hatcher built this himself, or if he contracted to have it built, but do you see the size and scope of this loft, and the space it takes up ? So you might also consider the capital investment needed, the advertising, the book keeping, the phone calls, the emails, the web site which must be maintained, etc. etc. 

There are some events out there which have attempted to go "cheap", with a "bargain" perch fee etc. But, the problem is, I have seen some of these "Lofts" and I don't seee these as any real bargains. I am reminded of certain contractors whose main selling point is that they will work cheaper then the next guy. My few experiences with working with these types of deals is that you often get what you pay for. The industry standard seems to have settled in to the $100 to $125 range for the so called "Perch" fees, and for the level of service I have gotten from this particular event, that seems like a pretty good bargain to me.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

http://www.winnerscupusa.com/

Can you find my chickens in the 2011 photo Gallery ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ProPigeon Loft said:


> She's a beauty Warren, what's she down from?


The pair I sent this year are out of Zus Maxx when I mated her to one of 2nd generation Ludo's.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ProPigeon Loft said:


>


Wow ! So PROP 809 is one of yours !!  I should have put two and two together !! I wish you well my friend !!


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## Paragon Loft

Hey Warren You Are Right,i Sent 3 To A One Loft Race,no Updates,and I Dont Think They Traine The Birds Down The Road,i Was Upset About 200 Birds From 150 Mls Big Loss On A Good Day I Figure Good Train Birds,healthy Should Be Able To Fly 150 Mls On A Good Weather Day.at The End Of The 3 Races I Was Lucky Only Lost 1 Out 3 Good Luck.


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## Paragon Loft

Sorry Guys I Entered Twice


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## g-pigeon

Do you get your birds back after the race. If not what happens to all the birds


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## SmithFamilyLoft

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/messages/listMess.php?skin=winner

News and Updates
Aug-22-2011
Good Monday everyone!! weather has dropped in temperature somewhat.....still in the 90s projected for the week. This week is training crate week. Meaning that each day after their 3 hrs. of flight time, the birds will be taught to enter the training crates (that they have had free access to all this time) on command with my little white stick tapping the floor. This way, when we do begin to train, we can have the crates loaded and on the road in a matter of 10 minutes. They will spend 15 minutes in the crates from here on out daily until we head out. (weather permitting) Now I have been saying all along that if the heat persists, we may begin slowly, by staying short. Then picking our days before proceeding further. Hopefully it will all change and we can just progress normally and get the schedule to be "on" for the beginning of October. Dont call and try to rush me though, for I am only considering the birds and what they have to deal with weatherwise........priority. Just keeping the playing field even for all birds to show what they really have in the RACES........ be well everyone...


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## NayNay

That is an update that pretty much shows you that this race has the right priorities, eh? It'll go on my "list" for whenever entry fees fit in the budget- I need to get my birds bred to that level first anyway. So, hopefully, as my finances improve, so will my birds, then Bam, watch out one loft world .


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## SmithFamilyLoft

NayNay said:


> That is an update that pretty much shows you that this race has the right priorities, eh? It'll go on my "list" for whenever entry fees fit in the budget- I need to get my birds bred to that level first anyway. So, hopefully, as my finances improve, so will my birds, then Bam, watch out one loft world .


Agreed ! 

Notice the number of updates which have been provided as compared to some other events ? This year I think Bill really adjusted the race to account for the poor economy, and so even a working guy can afford to have a bird or two in the race. I think the care and management of the birds is also apparent when you compare the lost or missing birds with some of the other One Loft events around the country. I know when I pay $100 or $125 for a perch fee, I like to actually see my birds make it to at least the 1st race !!  As everyone knows, a bad training toss can come from out of no where, but I have followed some One Loft events where they always seem to have excessive losses. Maybe it is their loft, or loft location, their management or maybe even their training, who knows ?? I know that Bill for example gives the birds an opportunity to have a drink before they are released. Sure, it takes extra time, and is more effort then simply dumping the birds out and hoping for the best. But, this attention to detail is why they are setting the Gold Standard...at least IMHO, that is my personal perspective, for whatever it might be worth. 

http://www.winnerscupusa.com/


*Aug-25-2011
Good Day everyone!! In the past, we have had anyone, even those not participating in the cup races to view the live camera during the races. The impact from so many fanciers watching results and races takes away huge bandwidth away causing real time to become very slow. Though we increase, actually double the bandwidth during the season (right now it is doubled) giving us better viewing, we must now only allow those who are participating in the races at the cup for 2011 access to the camera. by limiting access to those actually in the races, we will have better 'real time' viewing and faster reload capabilities showing results. Participants will receive the new password enabling the cameras this year via email. Thanks for your cooperation and your participation in the races for 2011 is greatly appreciated. bill

*


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## conditionfreak

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The pair I sent this year are out of Zus Maxx when I mated her to one of 2nd generation Ludo's.


I have probably said this in the past, but this bird is one good looking racing pigeon. Looks serious and (as dumb as this sounds) looks intelligent. And that isn't even taking into account the fantastic pedigree!

Maybe they airbrushed him like they used to do with pics of Marilyn Monroe.


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## First To Hatch

conditionfreak said:


> ...and (as dumb as this sounds) looks intelligent.


Thats not dumb, when one walks in the loft you can really tell the intelligent pigeons from the other, but not all of them seem to be intelligent and physically "perfect"


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## SmithFamilyLoft

conditionfreak said:


> I have probably said this in the past, but this bird is one good looking racing pigeon. Looks serious and (as dumb as this sounds) looks intelligent. And that isn't even taking into account the fantastic pedigree!
> 
> Maybe they airbrushed him like they used to do with pics of Marilyn Monroe.




Thank you for the kind words ! I am keeping my fingers crossed, the YB's I sent did not look or feel as good as their Mama, but then how much can your *really* tell about a 30 day old YB ?  I always run the risk when I am open about such things, and open myself up to my critics and detractors... but hey that is the pigeon game and as the ole saying goes, if you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen !!! 

Recieved this communication from Bill today, it sometimes is a thin line between providing informative updates, and just getting spammed, but I appreciate the updates. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Greetings breeders;

Its still blazin here, breaking all records for 100 degree days. The birds are resiliant and
have come through it just fine. But not without some adjustments for hydration and good
air flow. We have paid particular attention to respiratory but in the mornings, the birds are
out at the crack of dawn. They depart, route for some 35 to 40 minutes and come back in 3 flocks. I lock the exit traps earlier now so that when they come in from the heat which begins about 9am........they stay in.. Release in the late afternoon? NOT........

We updated the inventory for you www.winnerscupusa.com

click training . We will give you a heads up as we begin to train.............when this heat
lets up.

thankyou.

bill*


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## NayNay

Spammed vs Updates- LOL.


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## blongboy

so it 300$ per bird to enter right?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

blongboy said:


> so it 300$ per bird to enter right?


2011 Racing Schedule



* Team consists of 3 birds / 4 team entry limit
* 4 races: 150 200 250 300 * optional Ironclad 400 125.00 entry
* 100 dollar perch fee per bird
* 200 dollar entry fee per bird
* 10% cut on capitol / pools
* Points system / Champion Bird & Champion Breeder
* pools paid in clocking order
* Birds on "drop" share drop prize but capitol is paid out in
clocking order.
* ties in clock receive same points / divide prize equally
* First race points only & hot spot entry option
* Races begin October 1st.
* no auction no buyback
* flying East Course into Arkansas
* All birds must be activated 2 weeks prior to the 150
* Accepting birds February 15th to May 30th. Replacements
until May 30th. Constant inventory/ birds chipped on arrival
* 10th flight removed July 1st / Light system to accelerate moult
* 2 outside tail feathers pulled / to jumpstart immune system
* Team consolidation/adjustments for lost birds/ Prior to races
* Race mgr. decision on all issues considered final
* Custom crystal trophies for winning categories and full page
photo ads.


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## rpalmer

blongboy said:


> so it 300$ per bird to enter right?


If you want to race in this race it will cost you a minimum of $900.00 USD plus shipping.


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## bbcdon

rpalmer said:


> If you want to race in this race it will cost you a minimum of $900.00 USD plus shipping.


He will let you enter individual birds also.


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## NayNay

All this stuff is still very new to me- but intriguing for sure. It seems like there are at least a lot of potential payout possibilities in this race. As a newbie, a lot of the lingo bogs me down- they always seem to talk about points in these things - and I understand re acquiring points towards the final awarding of "Champion Bird" and "Champion Loft" etc- but sometimes it seems like they use points as a euphemism for "money"- then other times they talk about "capital prizes" "pooling" etc etc- seems like we need a special glossary to explain some of this stuff. 

I am not "there" yet- so maybe it doesn't matter- but I do plan on particpating in some smaler one loft type races, futurities, auction race- some misc opportunities to try my birds against others- and the lingo is so confusing. What exactly Is an auction race? If I send a bird to one, will that bird then be in the race- or does it depend on if someone buys it- or what? Or do they buy the birds after the race. Pigeon racing is one confusing sport- at least if you do anything beyond your local level.....

anybody wanna chime in?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Another update from Bill today. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------


*We have cooled down today, wow. a different world here. We are updating the inventory today and erasing
the problematic inventory sheet that we posted yesterday. We are around 330 birds at present. The birds are slick, onion skinned / pink breasted..........exactly what we want before we hit the road. Routing is great as well. But as always, there are always going to be that troublesome "few" who I call 'laggers". No one is to blame for that........just the gene pool. No matter how hard we try to breed the best, from our best pairs,
for sure not all the cards fall in the right place.

Be patient, we will have some great races coming soon.

all the best,

bill*


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## SmithFamilyLoft

rpalmer said:


> If you want to race in this race it will cost you a minimum of $900.00 USD plus shipping.


 You are correct, if you send a full team of three birds. Or as I did this year, one can send less then three birds. A single bird would be $100+$200= $300
Which for a One Loft rasce, is one of the least expensive. There are some events out there that have a capital fees of up to $1000 per bird with or without a perch fee depending on the event. The payouts for the larger fee races will of course be bigger as one would expect.  One has to weigh the larger possible payout with the larger up front expense. For my personal purposes, at this stage of my racing career, I would rather test a larger number of birds with other handlers then send a single bird to a single event, but that may not be the case with everyone.


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## NayNay

Good point Warren- plus, higher priced races are theoretically going to be harder to win vs higher rolling competition. Still $900 is likely out of many people's range- sure is for me. But, I wouldn't do this race until I could send a full team- and had birds worthy of such that had been tested via their siblings racing and winning here at home and at less expensive local one loft/charity/futurity events.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Another update from Bill. Don't know what to think about this high loss of birds thing from around the country. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


*Dear Breeders;

yesterday in my discussion with Carey Tilson, the subject of heavy losses has already come into play with both racing lofts as well as one loft training managers. Carey has been deluged with calls the last 3 days about unexplained heavy losses from both sectors of the
pigeon sport.

While many in the public sector are totally unaware of this driving issue ( Elenin in our Orbit)
some breeders are already aware of it and are paying close attention. 
While many of us have done our homework, we can only suffice to suggest to the fancy to
do their homework and realize that in a few short weeks, the results of Elenins affect on us
both as fanciers and as just everyday people can have a profound affect.

The heat has somewhat subsided here this week, but we are playing the ''caution'' game
knowing that even after ''dove season'' opening days, we will approach training of the Cup
birds with ambiguity. I for one feel that if we get through this ok (and I hope we do of course) that we can have a wonderful successful series even in November. Many of you
have conveyed to me that the weather is cooler and better then anyway, so delay is not a
big deal..........safer than not is my thought. Having heavy losses during the presence of this body in our planetary orbit would be foolish to say the least if we were to arrogantly
commence training knowing the problems with magnetic forces with a 'proton' charged object is now affecting us even more during the ''window '' period with crucial dates set at
September 26th/27th.

For anyone who is skeptical, we try to provide links for you direct from NASA and from other sources who are monitoring this upcoming event. 

While our intent of managing Winnerscup is our goal for one loft racing as in the past, the
fact that there are underlying issues connected to the health and welfare of the birds in my
hands as well as the outcome of such an event playing an important role in the results and
number of birds whose perch fees have been paid. Then it is also my duty as your Loft
manager to be as cognizant of any and all events that can affect the outcome of your entries
and hard earned breeding, not to mention your money...........

So bare with us, try to do your own homework and be informed. Meanwhile, we will stay in
complete touch with you regarding your birds and your money so that we can best come to an intelligent solution and schedule to both run a successful series while also being informed of the latest updates on the matter.

Sincerely,

bill hatcher, mgr.
www.winnerscupusa.com

ps: the latest link for you to NASA on the issue is on the website. Another update link now
for you is http://www.pakalertpress.com/2011/0...f-that-comet-elenin-is-affecting-earth-video/*


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Another update:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

*Breeders;
the inventory is taken from the birds coming in from the days excercise. No training has started. We know Dove season begins soon, but as we said before, we will advise when training itself in earnest will begin.

If you have not viewed the video on the first page of Winnerscup....please do so.

We prefer to be patient this year, maybe even cautious with regards to training and the 
possible elements at hand, besides the sweltering heat conditions. Most breeders are
in agreement that we have time and not to rush. Todays new inventory is from this morning.
disregard the clocking time......but the inventory is accurate. We suspect more birds are here and will do a hands on inventory and chip check again shortly.

all the best,

bill*


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*One of many updates.....*

*Good day everyone;

oops, its warming up again with expected temps tomorrow at 104'. This morning the birds went 5 miles, came home well and flew around with some trapping in and others 
choosing to hang out and fly. 
We are as of yesterday, off the ''crumbles'' and now are on straight feed. No in between
meal ''snacks'' so to speak. The moult is just about finished with some birds just at the
tail end of neck feather area coming in.... The birds look great. Crisp.

We will now continue on the road short, working out way up. Our observation of the Sun and projected activities continue as we do this. Once we get to the ''comfort'' zone both with distance and potential abnomolies, we will post the tosses continuously along with the
full screen camera. ( winnerscup / sun/weather on menu)

If you are late at this point with any fees, now is the time (perch). As for entry funds, we will give you plenty of notice on sending that in before the races. Some people have already paid up their entry fees. For any reason, we will refund your fees if and that is a big "if"
anything causes disruption not allowing us to race. Once we know we are going to be on schedule (new) for the races and training has commenced to the distance, the ''refund'' 
to you will take place if your bird does not make the first official race. (150 mi.)

We will continue to post updates here and on the site "news" as we proceed onward.
Thanks for youre patience and cooperation. Our goal is to get these great birds to the main
races where we can come up with the true champions.

all the best,

bill hatcher
www.winnerscupusa.com*


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Iron Clad 400*

Now all that is left is the IronClad 400 !!!

Sent only two birds this year, they are still there, hopefully they will do well in the Iron Clad 400, a little Christmas Cash would be nice !!  Looks like this last event at the Winners Cup with go off next week.


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## kalapati

.


Arnel is a PT member here. Hey Pare, Congratulations! Your birds almost Pacquiao ed all the prizes. You put up an excellent team. May I know the strain of your 300 mile champ? 

















kalapati
San Diego

http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft

kalapati said:


> .
> 
> 
> Arnel is a PT member here. Hey Pare, Congratulations! Your birds almost Pacquiao ed all the prizes. You put up an excellent team. May I know the strain of your 300 mile champ?
> 
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> kalapati
> San Diego
> 
> http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


Wow !!! You mean we have two of the winners who are members here ?! That is cool !!!


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## Bluecheckard

kalapati said:


> .
> 
> 
> Arnel is a PT member here. Hey Pare, Congratulations! Your birds almost Pacquiao ed all the prizes. You put up an excellent team. May I know the strain of your 300 mile champ?
> 
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> kalapati
> San Diego
> 
> http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm






SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Wow !!! You mean we have two of the winners who are members here ?! That is cool !!!


Congrats pare Arnel for bagging most of the price money in this race. 

All my Good friends around me have been winning one loft races everywhere, I think I it's about time for me to start testing my birds in one loft race next year.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Iron Clad 400*

Wow what a difference a few seconds can make !!

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=Nw==&skin=winner

Station: 364 Miles - B Race

Release: Dec-10-2011 07:15:00


Weather Release: Clear Arrival: Clear 

Wind at Release: 5 S Wind at Arrival: 4 N

Temperature at Release: 31 Temperature at Arrival: 43
Lofts: 36

Birds: 76

Clocked: 69

LIVE Refreshing Race Report: 

Breeder Pigeon Color Sex Ent Dist Arrival Speed To Win Points Eligible 

2600 1 BILL TADLOCK 0011-AU11-TDLK BB H 1 364.000 12:49:32.00 1915.026 *00:00:00 * 760 Yes 
1500 2 ROMANSKI / KRIPPLE KREEK 0108-AU11-KK BB H 1 364.000 12:49:34.00 1914.835 *00:00:02 *750 Yes 
1100 3 SMITH FAMILY LOFT USA 0514-AU11-SFL BC C 1 364.000 12:49:38.00 1914.454 *00:00:05 *740 Yes 
600 4 DON WILLIAMS 0027-AU11-TDLK BB C 1 364.000 12:49:40.00 1914.263 *00:00:08 *730 Yes 
600 5 HOSANNA LOFT 42646-AU11-ARPU SMBB H 1 364.000 12:49:47.00 1913.596 *00:00:14 *720 Yes


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## rpalmer

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Wow what a difference a few seconds can make !!
> 
> http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=Nw==&skin=winner
> 
> Station: 364 Miles - B Race
> 
> Release: Dec-10-2011 07:15:00
> 
> 
> Weather Release: Clear Arrival: Clear
> 
> Wind at Release: 5 S Wind at Arrival: 4 N
> 
> Temperature at Release: 31 Temperature at Arrival: 43
> Lofts: 36
> 
> Birds: 76
> 
> Clocked: 69
> 
> LIVE Refreshing Race Report:
> 
> Breeder Pigeon Color Sex Ent Dist Arrival Speed To Win Points Eligible
> 
> 2600 1 BILL TADLOCK 0011-AU11-TDLK BB H 1 364.000 12:49:32.00 1915.026 *00:00:00 * 760 Yes
> 1500 2 ROMANSKI / KRIPPLE KREEK 0108-AU11-KK BB H 1 364.000 12:49:34.00 1914.835 *00:00:02 *750 Yes
> 1100 3 SMITH FAMILY LOFT USA 0514-AU11-SFL BC C 1 364.000 12:49:38.00 1914.454 *00:00:05 *740 Yes
> 600 4 DON WILLIAMS 0027-AU11-TDLK BB C 1 364.000 12:49:40.00 1914.263 *00:00:08 *730 Yes
> 600 5 HOSANNA LOFT 42646-AU11-ARPU SMBB H 1 364.000 12:49:47.00 1913.596 *00:00:14 *720 Yes



Congratulations Old Man!


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## Ashby Loft

Congrats Warren!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

12 Volt Man said:


> Congrats Warren!


Thank you !!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Here is my boy !!!


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## g-pigeon

congratulations. great accomplishment


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## Bluecheckard

Congrats and very nice looking bird Warren...


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## bbcdon

Congratulations to you and to the great looking speed demon!


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## kalapati

Congrats Warren.




kalapati
San Diego

http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Got him back today in perfect super condition !!  He looks even better then on the picture, course once you know you are handling a race winner, your opinon is always affected. Now the real question which I am fretting over, is to I simply breed him to a proven hen who has produced other race winner's, or do I take a chance and breed him back to his dam ? Since his dam was paired to a cock in 2011 which produced this winner and another which did well, do I simply keep that pairing together and hope that lightning hits twice ? Invite any comments. Typically would inbreed in a case like this to produce breeding stock, and not a race winner, although I have had inbred's do well in the races as well, but the closer I inbreed those odds typically decrease. I guess I should add the pedigree of this Winners Cup entry is made up of only direct or 2nd generation Ludo lines, there has been no SFL lines crossed in.


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## re lee

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Got him back today in perfect super condition !!  He looks even better then on the picture, course once you know you are handling a race winner, your opinon is always affected. Now the real question which I am fretting over, is to I simply breed him to a proven hen who has produced other race winner's, or do I take a chance and breed him back to his dam ? Since his dam was paired to a cock in 2011 which produced this winner and another which did well, do I simply keep that pairing together and hope that lightning hits twice ? Invite any comments. Typically would inbreed in a case like this to produce breeding stock, and not a race winner, although I have had inbred's do well in the races as well, but the closer I inbreed those odds typically decrease. I guess I should add the pedigree of this Winners Cup entry is made up of only direct or 2nd generation Ludo lines, there has been no SFL lines crossed in.


How did the bird do in all the othere races? Then If it did well in the othere races wouldnt you want to spread its genes. Which would mean. starting a family line with it. Not going right to inbreeding but line breed it first spreadings it blood into a group. Plus you have to look at how it breeds That would be a 2 year program there. Or just adding it to a family line to bring some different breeding. It is your bird and your loft. But i think looking at how it did through out the race season is better then this win. The average results shows it consistant value.


----------



## koukoukou

Great Job always great to score on the 400!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> How did the bird do in all the othere races? Then If it did well in the othere races wouldnt you want to spread its genes. Which would mean. starting a family line with it. Not going right to inbreeding but line breed it first spreadings it blood into a group. Plus you have to look at how it breeds That would be a 2 year program there. Or just adding it to a family line to bring some different breeding. It is your bird and your loft. But i think looking at how it did through out the race season is better then this win. The average results shows it consistant value.


 His nest mate did better in the other races, scoring in the points in all the races, but unfortnately, she ended up MIA on the this last race. He didn't do to bad in the 300 mile race, as he was less then 5 minutes behind the winner. You can click on the birds and get their indiviual race results. Not as good as many of the others, but still good enough to give him a chance in the breeding loft. Certainly this one race does not indicate that this is some kind of "Golden Pair", but it gives me hope I am at least heading down close to the right road.

But, I hear what you are saying Re lee, and I am leaning towards your line of thinking.

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/birds/listBreedersBirds.php?bid=15&skin=winner


----------



## kalapati

SD 417 placed 9th on the average speed. i think he's on the top 3% versus 260 birds:

http://www.wincompanion.com/winner/birds/points.php

he also was just 3.5 min behind the 1st place on the Iron Clad 400 race and just 3 min behind on the 300 and 250 mile races:

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=MzU=&skin=winner
http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=MzU=&skin=winner

SD 417 has the same parentage with my SD 811 and SD 802. both were 2009 Winnerscup champs.

SD 421 is also another sibling and won me $1000 for placing 45th versus 587 birds at the California Classic:

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=OTg=&skin=calcla

i may not have made good money this year but i'm still happy with the results.


kalapati
San Diego

http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


----------



## re lee

Its nest mate may show up. But hawks are bad this time of year. And we have had weather in okla this past week Today was the first day we had any sun in 5 days Cloudy light rain And morning fog. But ADA is more south and east But A better area for hawks now Will they let you know if the hen shows up.


----------



## First To Hatch

Funny you say that Warren, I had a cock do super awesome this year and am thinking of breeding him to his dam for a round. I always heard inbreed for breeders, well I don't think I need breeders but I might breed them and race them just to see.


----------



## PigeonVilla

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> His nest mate did better in the other races, scoring in the points in all the races, but unfortnately, she ended up MIA on the this last race. He didn't do to bad in the 300 mile race, as he was less then 5 minutes behind the winner. You can click on the birds and get their indiviual race results. Not as good as many of the others, but still good enough to give him a chance in the breeding loft. Certainly this one race does not indicate that this is some kind of "Goldne Pair", but it gives me hope I am at least heading down close to the right road.
> 
> But, I hear what you are saying Re lee, and I am leaning towards your line of thinking.
> 
> http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/birds/listBreedersBirds.php?bid=15&skin=winner


personally I would breed this bird to my best 3 hens in the loft and see what they throw out in every race venue that you choose to race and after that repeat the the breeding on which ever hen he shows the most promise with the next year but thats just me and then supersize on the offspring of that great pair to start a new line of birds for you to use in crosses and straight out oneloft flying machines .


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> Its nest mate may show up. But hawks are bad this time of year. And we have had weather in okla this past week Today was the first day we had any sun in 5 days Cloudy light rain And morning fog. But ADA is more south and east But A better area for hawks now Will they let you know if the hen shows up.


 Yes, Hatch said he will keep an eye out for her, sometimes they show up as you know, days,weeks even months later.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Got him back today in perfect super condition !!  He looks even better then on the picture, course once you know you are handling a race winner, your opinon is always affected. Now the real question which I am fretting over, is to I simply breed him to a proven hen who has produced other race winner's, or do I take a chance and breed him back to his dam ? Since his dam was paired to a cock in 2011 which produced this winner and another which did well, do I simply keep that pairing together and hope that lightning hits twice ? Invite any comments. Typically would inbreed in a case like this to produce breeding stock, and not a race winner, although I have had inbred's do well in the races as well, but the closer I inbreed those odds typically decrease. I guess I should add the pedigree of this Winners Cup entry is made up of only direct or 2nd generation Ludo lines, there has been no SFL lines crossed in.


I would go for the proven hen. I like crossing proven racers with proven breeders. Seems to work for me. You might want to cross in your best blood other than Ludo blood and see if it clicks. You can always line breed or inbreed him later. What is the proven hen out of? One good thing is he has the distance in him. You could even work him back trying to get some more early speed out of his offspring. They way I look at it you have great birds. I would try to get him to produce winners. You can always give him another hen later in the season to secure breeding stock.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

kalapati said:


> SD 417 placed 9th on the average speed. i think he's on the top 3% versus 260 birds:
> 
> http://www.wincompanion.com/winner/birds/points.php
> 
> he also was just 3.5 min behind the 1st place on the Iron Clad 400 race and just 3 min behind on the 300 and 250 mile races:
> 
> http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=MzU=&skin=winner
> http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=MzU=&skin=winner
> 
> SD 417 has the same parentage with my SD 811 and SD 802. both were 2009 Winnerscup champs.
> 
> SD 421 is also another sibling and won me $1000 for placing 45th versus 587 birds at the California Classic:
> 
> http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=OTg=&skin=calcla
> 
> i may not have made good money this year but i'm still happy with the results.
> 
> 
> kalapati
> San Diego
> 
> http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


You did real well again !!  You are one of the top names to beat !!


----------



## ERIC K

Am I crazy or did the winning bird fly 65.284974 MPH for 5 hours and 34.32 minutes in a 4 MPH wind ?


----------



## re lee

For one. the race course was not that easy of a course. Very hilly large hills WOODs. meaning mostly trees. Many hawks this time of year along the route. BUT sure pretty country. But the birds had a challenge. They had a good test. Other then I 40 even driving through there is a winding up and down hill drive Ozarks. Where the south north and west course would have been open mostly flat where even a person could see for many miles. I would still either work the bird into an exsisting line Or line breed it back into the extended family line Then move it tighter as it shows its breeding worth. That way the genes are spread and the use will go for years. To tight to fast restricts the future As the group gets bred to close at a early stage Preventing a good family line Build. Speeds were very good for the route they flew.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

The Winner's Cup has produced some very lovely posters, they are sending me a 20x30 poster !


----------



## ERIC K

Nice poster Warren and congradulations on the money win. So... now I spent most of last night and part of today reading the Steven van Breemen breeding papers I spotted on your web site. How much of his work do you follow ? Can the average person follow that type of program with limited space and say the best birds you have is only race winners or say a few foundation birds that build someone a family of winners ? any thoughts would be great.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

ERIC K said:


> Nice poster Warren and congradulations on the money win. So... now I spent most of last night and part of today reading the Steven van Breemen breeding papers I spotted on your web site. How much of his work do you follow ? Can the average person follow that type of program with limited space and say the best birds you have is only race winners or say a few foundation birds that build someone a family of winners ? any thoughts would be great.


Why not start a another thread on the subject, as that discussion would be a bit OT for this thread I would think.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Anyone else on PT that has sent entries to the Winners Cup for 2012 ?

http://www.galaxyloft.com/winnerscup/

Here is a recent email communication that was sent out :

*Hello Breeders!!

Hope your July 4th was relaxing and enjoyable.. Flights 9 and 10 are pulled here at the cup. We notice that whether we have cut the flights halfway before or not, the discomfort still exhists for the birds initially.
The days are warming up, typical for July here so we are to be selective after flights come in an inch......to release and back to the air.
Many of the birds are out to number 9 already so we of course only had one flight to pull. We could have just let it go with the time we have left, but the decision to pull that flight is based on trying to treat
all entries the same, regardless of age or time/date sent to loft.
This is a great time to check the leg chips and overall physical condition of each bird. Shipping crates were cleaned again and reset back to their positions enabling the birds to hangout in them at their will.
Last year, we began the season later due to the searing heat. Thanks to you guys, no one was against that plan and it paid off. we like to
think that we can have that option if needed.....thanks for your support.*


----------



## Josepe

Warren,
Is the Winners Cup over yet?


----------



## Josepe

Never mind I found it's over.Winners:
http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
Result sheets:
http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=NQ==&skin=winner


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Josepe said:


> Never mind I found it's over.Winners:
> http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
> Result sheets:
> http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=NQ==&skin=winner


They haven't flown the Iron Clad 350 yet, if they did, then no one told me about it.


----------



## Josepe

Then it isn't over?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Josepe said:


> Then it isn't over?


Nope...can't be over if the 350 has yet to be flown !


----------



## Josepe

Was going by the winners the had posted 150-300.Didn't know they had a 350 after the 300.My Md. boys Tadlock and Williams didn't fair this year,unless the do it in the 350 then.Good luck.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Josepe said:


> Was going by the winners the had posted 150-300.Didn't know they had a 350 after the 300.My Md. boys Tadlock and Williams didn't fair this year,unless the do it in the 350 then.Good luck.


This came in today's email.

In a message dated 12/4/2012 10:38:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:


Today will be another clocking inventory. If your name is in white
on the website entry list..........it means you've not paid. Or, it means you have not let me know HOW your paying. If your in green, then
you are ok.

If your in white by the time its race day? your not in................


check again your band numbers today.........

birds are open hole this beautiful morning and will get 2/3 hrs. of

flying ..... No that doesn't mean constant flying.......it means more

important flying............up and down, up and down..........

www.winnerscupusa.com


----------



## bbcdon

I was on the phone with a one loft race manager, and he told me that according to an email he received, that this is the last year for the Winnerscup USA race!


----------



## Josepe

I wonder what that meant on their site-The Final Season.I wonder why?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

bbcdon said:


> I was on the phone with a one loft race manager, and he told me that according to an email he received, that this is the last year for the Winnerscup USA race!


 That is what Hatch says. I can't say I blame him. He sold out his business in California some years ago, and he wants to enjoy more time with family. Money was never a motivator for him in terms of running the Winners Cup. He simply had a passion to run the best One Loft event in USA. I am disappointed that we will lose a Gold Standard type of race, but I certainly can appreciate that a One Loft Race is a full time job, with part time pay and no benefits.

I am doubtful I will be able to find a replacement venue, that will offer the accommodations, number of races, low cost of entry, amount of competition, etc. that Hutch provided with this race. I mean where else can one compete against a starting group of 450 pigeons, and send a bird to a 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, and a 350 ? Where one can play for as little as $200 in capital prize fees, or play for the larger $50,000 1st Place prize ?

Going to be a void there, as so few of these events are being run by an independently wealthy pigeon fancier, who simply runs the event because of his passion for the sport, and not because management needs a way to pay their bills or pay the expenses of the local club members.


----------



## Josepe

Warren,
I nominate you to take take the Reins next year how's that?


----------



## ejb3810

Warren, I suggest that you look at the North American Breeders Cup as a One Loft Event that may be of interest. I have no financial or other interest in this One Loft other than to call the founder and manager Reverend Cory Carlson a friend.
The perch and entry fees are similar to the Winners Cup and so too is the race series.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

*Iron Clad 350*

In a message dated 12/4/2012 5:24:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

Breeders

we are going to scan the birds tonite at 6pm central time. Weather looks to be an issue over the weekend in West Memphis Ark. Plan for release on Thursday the 6th. We will show live close ups of the Gold
birds during the scan.

www.winnerscupusa.com


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

ejb3810 said:


> Warren, I suggest that you look at the North American Breeders Cup as a One Loft Event that may be of interest. I have no financial or other interest in this One Loft other than to call the founder and manager Reverend Cory Carlson a friend.
> The perch and entry fees are similar to the Winners Cup and so too is the race series.


 I will look at it a bit more closer, thank you for the suggestion. The only issue I have with some of these events, is they award so many prizes, so that a bunch of people feel like they won something, that by the time you send say a six bird team, even if you win 1st Place, the prize fund does not cover the expense to ship and enter a team of birds.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In a message dated 12/4/2012 5:24:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
> 
> Breeders
> 
> we are going to scan the birds tonite at 6pm central time. Weather looks to be an issue over the weekend in West Memphis Ark. Plan for release on Thursday the 6th. We will show live close ups of the Gold
> birds during the scan.
> 
> www.winnerscupusa.com


 OK, "Red Horse 77" is no super champion, but I am happy, looking forward to seeing him back home again. 

1	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0234-AU12-VTKG	BC	H	1	15:18:17.0	1315.443	00:00:00	Yes
2	ART SOUCY / APC	6173-AU12-RVK	BC	H	1	15:18:37.0	1314.507	00:00:20	Yes
2	DBJ LOFT	0797-AU12-DBJ	BC	H	1	15:18:37.0	1314.507	00:00:20	Yes
4	ART SOUCY / APC	6064-AU12-VK	DCPD	H	2	15:18:41.0	1314.320	00:00:24	Yes
4	STAN GEORGE	0881-AU12-HWAI	BC	H	1	15:18:41.0	1314.320	00:00:24	Yes
6	GANUS FAMILY LOFT	0746-AU12-GFL	BB	H	1	15:18:43.0	1314.227	00:00:25	Yes
7	BLUE STREAK	12147-AU12-TRPC	BC	C	1	15:18:50.0	1313.900	00:00:32	Yes
8	NANEZ FAMILY LOFT	0233-AU12-NANZ	BC	C	1	15:19:21.0	1312.453	00:01:04	Yes
9	ARNEL VEGA	1402-AU12-ARNL	BB	H	1	15:19:24.0	1312.314	00:01:06	Yes
10	ANDY SKWIAT	0042-AU12-SKWT	BBWF	C	1	15:19:26.0	1312.220	00:01:09	Yes
11	CHINESE UNION	55906-AU12-ARPU	BCWP	H	1	15:19:29.0	1312.081	00:01:11	Yes
12	ZHEN-XUAN-GUO	3370-AU12-ARPU	BCP	H	1	15:19:30.0	1312.034	00:01:13	Yes
13	IRISH SYNDICATE	0736-AU12-IRSH	CWF	H	1	15:20:03.0	1310.499	00:01:45	Yes
13	WWW.CERTAINLOFTUSA.COM 0078-AU12-PP	BC	C	1	15:20:03.0	1310.499	00:01:45	Yes
15	CANTO/WILTZ SYNDICATE	3804-AU12-SCC	BL	H	1	15:20:08.0	1310.267	00:01:50	Yes
*16	SMITH FAMILY LOFT / REDDICK	0077-AU12-SFL	RWF	H	1	*15:24:51.0	1297.252	00:06:33	Yes
17	B&S TEAM	2009-AU12-MRC	BB	C	1	15:26:33.0	1292.624	00:08:16	Yes
18	NANEZ FAMILY LOFT	0372-AU12-NANZ	BB	H	2	15:27:33.0	1289.917	00:09:16	Yes
19	BILL TADLOCK	0254-AU12-VTKG	BC	H	1	15:27:35.0	1289.827	00:09:18	Yes
19	MIKE GANUS / LEVI LOFT	0292-AU12-GFL	BBWF	C	1	15:27:35.0	1289.827	00:09:18	Yes
21	ZHEN-XUAN-GUO	3229-AU12-ARPU	BBWF	H	2	15:27:37.0	1289.737	00:09:20	Yes
22	NANEZ FAMILY LOFT	0361-AU12-NANZ	BB	C	3	15:27:38.0	1289.692	00:09:21	Yes
22	RMC LOFTS	122118-AU12-MSO	BB	C	1	15:27:38.0	1289.692	00:09:21	Yes
0	ANDY SKWIAT	0030-AU12-SKWT	DCWF	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	ANDY SKWIAT	0043-AU12-SKWT	DC	H	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	APOLLO LOFT	1003-AU12-APL0	BC	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	APOLLO LOFT	1004-AU12-APL0	BB	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	ARNEL VEGA	1477-AU12-ARNL	CH	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	ART SOUCY / APC	6068-AU12-VK	BB	H	6	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	ART SOUCY / APC	6087-AU12-VK	SIL	H	4	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	ART SOUCY / APC	6123-AU12-RVK	BC	C	5	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	ART SOUCY / APC	6159-AU12-RVK	BB	H	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	BALDWIN / TILSON	0670-AU12-TNTL	BB	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	BALDWIN / TILSON	2339-AU12-JNC	BB	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	BILL TADLOCK	0230-AU12-VTKG	GP	C	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	BILL TADLOCK	0255-AU12-VTKG	BC	H	4	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	BILL TADLOCK	0271-AU12-VTKG	DC	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	BOB MCCARTY	12050-AU12-BMC	BC	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	CANTO/WILTZ SYNDICATE	3801-AU12-SCC	BB	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	CHINESE UNION	0918-AU12-EPL	DCWP	C	4	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	CHINESE UNION	0923-AU12-EPL	BC	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	CHINESE UNION	55909-AU12-ARPU	BB	C	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	COLETTA / REDDICK	0008-AU12-CLTA	BBWF	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	COLETTA / REDDICK	0037-AU12-CLTA	BB	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DAN ROMANSKI LOFT	2590-AU12-GNEO	BB	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DAN ROMANSKI LOFT	2591-AU12-GNEO	BB	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DBJ LOFT	0788-AU12-DBJ	BB	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DBJ LOFT	0790-AU12-DBJ	BB	C	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DBJ LOFT	0799-AU12-DBJ	BB	H	4	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DELMONTE BROTHERS	37318-AU12-ARPU	DCWF	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DELMONTE BROTHERS	37362-AU12-ARPU	DC	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0210-AU12-VTKG	BB	C	6	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0221-AU12-VTKG	BBWF	C	4	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0227-AU12-VTKG	BWFP	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0269-AU12-VTK	BB	C	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0270-AU12-VTK	DC	H	5	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	DON WILLIAMS / TADLOCK	0280-AU12-VTK	BB	C	7	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	GANUS FAMILY LOFT	0076-AU12-GFL	BBWF	C	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	GANUS FAMILY LOFT	0735-AU12-GFL	CWF	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	HARRETT / DUDLEY	12069-AU12-PUEB	BC	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	HARRETT / DUDLEY	18742-AU12-JEDD	DC	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	IRISH SYNDICATE	0711-AU12-IRSH	CWF	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	IRISH SYNDICATE	0735-AU12-IRSH	CH	H	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	IRISH SYNDICATE / ROMANSKI	0731-AU12-IRSH	DCWP	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	IRISH SYNDICATE / ROMANSKI	0741-AU12-IRSH	BCWP	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	KRIPPLE KREEK	0213-AU12-KK	DC	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	LARRY LEWIS / EDDIE KING	18696-AU12-IPBB	BC	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	LARRY LEWIS / EDDIE KING	2633-AU12-KAY	BC	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	NANEZ FAMILY LOFT	0438-AU12-NANZ	BB	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	NANEZ FAMILY LOFT	0454-AU12-NANZ	DCWP	H	4	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	NANEZ/BROOKS/BROER	18271-AU12-ARPU	BB	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	OJIBWE LOFT	0055-AU12-OJIB	BB	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	OJIBWE LOFT	0067-AU12-OJIB	DC	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	RMC LOFT / VPSLB.COM	47774-AU12-ARPU	BC	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	STAN GEORGE	0844-AU12-HWAI	DC	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	STAN GEORGE	0852-AU12-HWAI	BB	H	3	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	TARTING / CINIEGA	1395-AU12-IMO	ST	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	TARTING / CINIEGA	5607-AU12-JEDD	BKWP	H	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	TEAM HARRETT	18726-AU12-JEDD	BB	C	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	TEAM PARTRIDGE	2533-AU12-PASO	BB	C	2	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	TEAM PARTRIDGE	2542-AU12-PASO	DC	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
0	WWW.CERTAINLOFTUSA.COM 0081-AU12-PP	BB	H	1	00:00:00.0	0.000	0	Yes
There are 82 bird records


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## Josepe

Looks like the Md.boys did end up doing it again.One of Tadlock's birds is on ipigeon and the bids are already over 1600.00.
Warren maybe you better give Tadlock a call about some birds?
Also,I just saw some people( stock holders?) headed in the direction of your house with Torches?


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## triple7loft

I like that looks like a jam up dove crossing !!!!






SmithFamilyLoft said:


> We all would prefer a 1st Place Win, that goes without saying. But, I am certainly not disappointed with the pair that produced "Red Horse 77", he is returning to the Mother Loft where he will meet the two star sisters from the 2012 YB season here in Pennsylvania. As fate would have it, one a muti-diploma winner, the other is YRPC's 2012 1st Place Champion Bird, are both his sisters. From my perspective, that was a very successful pairing. Red Horse, could end up being paired to his Champion sister.
> 
> So, there won't be any torches, maybe you confused it with the sounds of Champagne bottles being opened. Offspring from him and his dark sister, who complete the 2013 series of races, could make outstanding foundation breeders. That's better then having money tied up in ten year government bonds yielding 1.60% and with no write offs !
> 
> If you are in a higher tax bracket, and have high risk investment capital you can tie up for a period of years, one can invest in race horses or in racing pigeons. My passion is for pigeons. Investing in racing pigeons may not be main stream, but it is far more affordable, then the $40-$50k a year to maintain a horse.
> 
> http://digitalcommons.law.ggu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1301&context=ggulrev
> 
> and see http://racehorseinvesting.com/thoroughbred_partnerships.cfm


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## bbcdon

Well, I have the race stats for the Winners Cup USA. Number of birds to the first race: 238. Number of birds to the last race: 81. That is a ratio of 34%!!! Of the one loft races which I kept stats on this year, this is the lowest survival percentage of all of them!!!


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## Xueoo

bbcdon said:


> Well, I have the race stats for the Winners Cup USA. Number of birds to the first race: 238. Number of birds to the last race: 81. That is a ratio of 34%!!! Of the one loft races which I kept stats on this year, this is the lowest survival percentage of all of them!!!


That 81 is for the extra optional 350 mile race with new entry fee's. It's a race of it's own with the remaining birds from the regular race.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bbcdon said:


> Well, I have the race stats for the Winners Cup USA. Number of birds to the first race: 238. Number of birds to the last race: 81. That is a ratio of 34%!!! Of the one loft races which I kept stats on this year, this is the lowest survival percentage of all of them!!!


I am sure you didn't take into consideration that is an optional, pay more money, Iron Clad / Gold. Much like the California Classic, which had 810 entered and only 108 made it to the last race being flown I think tomorrow. http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/clockings/raceReport.php?rid=MQ==&skin=calcla&refresh=1 What would that percentage be ? 13% ? 


Don't know about the classic, but at the Cup with your low return rate, the regular every day fliers, who did want to invest $1000 a bird, etc. had their birds shipped back home. Same case at the Flamingo this year on their optional 400. 

If you miss those particular little details, then one will make all of the wrong assumptions.


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## bbcdon

Like I said before several times, it is just a simple statements of the facts as to the ratios, that is all!!! Get it !!!


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## bbcdon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
> 
> Can you find my chickens in the 2011 photo Gallery ?


Nothing like crowing!!!


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## bbcdon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The Winner's Cup has produced some very lovely posters, they are sending me a 20x30 poster !


Maybe Bill will autograph it for you, then you can have it framed, and hang it in your trophy room!!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bbcdon said:


> Maybe Bill will autograph it for you, then you can have it framed, and hang it in your trophy room!!!


 I did, but the poster was from last year, you are reading a post from 2011. If you weren't afraid to play, maybe you could win one as well.....naw, no use getting your hopes up.


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## Josepe

Won't be any posters coming to his address this year.Though I did talk to Bill tadlock and asked him to send him one with his autograph.
Warren here's a bird you need to get to bring into you breeding program.You could breed him to that Zuzzy Max bird maybe.
http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=101180


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## conditionfreak

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In these hard economic times, I thought it was a good idea on the part of Bill Hatcher to devise a race which would take the working guy's pocketbook into consideration. Now, for only a $200 entry fee, one can have a chance to see how their birds stack up on a National level, win a few coins, and without breaking the bank !


Interesting. This idea seems familiar.

Oh yea. The Pigeon Talk Classic.

Nationwide competition. Low entry fee. A few coins to win. No bank breaking or wallet emptying.

Yep. Good idea. I'm glad that Bill Hatcher thought of it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bbcdon said:


> Nothing like crowing!!!


 When you win the Pigeon Talk Classic, you will be permitted to crow as well.


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## First To Hatch

I believe that bbcdon enters numerous one loft race events, Warren. I see his results every now and then when I look at them online. 

If I could do a OLR however I think I might do the AIC race it is expensive, but I like the huge payouts for that 300.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> I believe that bbcdon enters numerous one loft race events, Warren. I see his results every now and then when I look at them online.
> 
> If I could do a OLR however I think I might do the AIC race it is expensive, but I like the huge payouts for that 300.



I forgot who I was talking to


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## First To Hatch

Yes your editing reason made me chuckle a lil bit lol.


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## Josepe

Yea,but not only two,there's other members tired of reading all your BS and your Sarcastic posts and Dilirious Rantings.You're a Lengend In Your Own Mind,but nobody elses.


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## bbcdon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I did, but the poster was from last year, you are reading a post from 2011. If you weren't afraid to play, maybe you could win one as well.....naw, no use getting your hopes up.


I do play *"SALTY ONE"*!!!. Your ego is only dwarfed by your sarcastic demeanor!!!


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## swagg

Josepe said:


> Yea,but not only two,there's other members tired of reading all your BS and your Sarcastic posts and Dilirious Rantings.You're a Lengend In Your Own Mind,but nobody elses.


And just what part of anyones mind are you ?


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## swagg

bbcdon said:


> Like I said before several times, it is just a simple statements of the facts as to the ratios, that is all!!! Get it !!!


Which one loft events did you enter again? how did you do and what were the ratios ?


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## Kastle Loft

I can't find any rules or entry fees on that winner's cup site. Any help?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Kastle Loft said:


> I can't find any rules or entry fees on that winner's cup site. Any help?


They closed down shop, thus it is for now, no more.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

swagg said:


> Which one loft events did you enter again? how did you do and what were the ratios ?


96% return ratio has been reported, but in this race, the birds went MIA, never made it to final race. http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/birds/listBreedersBirds.php?bid=288&skin=calcla

I am sure he has had much better years, and his fair share of wins, just like the rest of us. I wish him better luck next year. If he is going to send birds to this event again, I don't know. Maybe he's going to throw in the towel ?


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## bbcdon

swagg said:


> Which one loft events did you enter again? how did you do and what were the ratios ?


I am glad to see that you are carrying the *"SALTY ONE'*s water! Maybe if you suck up enough he will send you some top ace birds!!!


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## Crazy Pete

I guess I can't give any one a hard time I've only had birds in the Winnerscup in 2011 and both bbcdon and Warren beat me, so either one could send me one of those top ace birds. 
Dave


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## ERIC K

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> When you win the Pigeon Talk Classic, you will be permitted to crow as well.


I thought you wife picked the winning bird in that pigeon talk classic, not you?


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## swagg

bbcdon said:


> I am glad to see that you are carrying the *"SALTY ONE'*s water! Maybe if you suck up enough he will send you some top ace birds!!!


So by asking you a simple question im now carrying a pail. Clearly you have no answer  or at least one you care not to share


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## Josepe

swagg,
Didn't you read the warnings from the Moderators on the OLR thread????????? Trying to Instigate more are you?
Don't reply Don.


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## Pigeon0446

This forum is just like my combine the little guy can't say anything or you might get in trouble. But my combine is way worse you can't enjoy yourself down at the club anymore because you have to watch what you say because it might offend somebody and they can bring you up on charges to the new ethics commitee. God forbid you curse in front of the wrong person or you talk bad about the new drug testing policy they have in place which is so screwed up they way they have it set up. They want you kicked out of the combine it's crazy. The sport is dying as it is here and they are trying to chase ppl away. But then at the same time the big shoots can do whatever they want with no repercussions kinda like on here.


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## bbcdon

Pigeon0446 said:


> This forum is just like my combine the little guy can't say anything or you might get in trouble. But my combine is way worse you can't enjoy yourself down at the club anymore because you have to watch what you say because it might offend somebody and they can bring you up on charges to the new ethics commitee. God forbid you curse in front of the wrong person or you talk bad about the new drug testing policy they have in place which is so screwed up they way they have it set up. They want you kicked out of the combine it's crazy. The sport is dying as it is here and they are trying to chase ppl away. But then at the same time the big shoots can do whatever they want with no repercussions kinda like on here.


Ditto's!!!


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## swagg

Josepe said:


> swagg,
> Didn't you read the warnings from the Moderators on the OLR thread????????? Trying to Instigate more are you?
> Don't reply Don.


Nothing about my post was insulting or a personal attack in anyway shape or form, . I unlike some am able to reply to a post without a personal attack. Ifa guy is unable to be asked a simple question without his cork comin out then maybe he should sign off the forum for a bit. give it till after the holiday stress wears off and try again to play nice. 

Now as for you, we need to get this bet figured out


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## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In these hard economic times, I thought it was a good idea on the part of Bill Hatcher to devise a race which would take the working guy's pocketbook into consideration. Now, for only a $200 entry fee, one can have a chance to see how their birds stack up on a National level, win a few coins, and without breaking the bank !
> 
> The new format for 2011 !
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
> 
> 2011 Racing Schedule
> 
> 
> * Team consists of 3 birds / NO LIMIT on teams entered
> * 3 races: 150 200 300 * optional Ironclad 400 125.00 entry
> * 100 dollar perch fee per bird
> * *200 dollar entry fee per bird*
> * 10% cut on capitol / pools
> * Points system / Champion Bird & Champion Breeder
> * pools paid in clocking order
> * Birds on "drop" share drop prize but capitol is paid out in
> clocking order.
> * Races begin October 1st.
> * no auction no buyback
> * flying East or West, to be determined
> * All birds must be activated 2 weeks prior to the 150
> * Accepting birds February 15th to May 15th. Replacements
> until May 15th. Constant inventory/ birds chipped on arrival
> * 10th flight removed / light system used
> 
> http://www.winnerscupusa.com/


 I started this thread back on December 4, 2010 as a way to share this event with Pigeon Talk members,, since a number of Pigeon Talk members have sent birds to this event, and have won this event. In recent weeks, this thread has been used to launch attacks and name calling, and to be honest, I didn't do a very good job as a moderator, as this thread became more about me, then the Winners Cup, which was never my intention. So for the good of the sport, I am going to put this particular subject to rest.


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