# My stock is not a family



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I know alot of people say breed from a family. Even the AU booklets you get say not to get pigeons from all over but instead get a family. Well I did not listen to that at all. I was making a list of my breeding stock and this is what I came up with, I was like wow! Everyone has 20+ pairs right? I know thats alot but I plan to send 20-30 birds out to races this year, plus breed my yb's.

3 local race winners 

2 Wally Tienprasid birds

1 Heritage loft van hove

5 Tad Filiczkowski birds

4 Dave Clausing birds

3 Tony Rossi van loons

1 Skylake Sion

2 CBS birds

5 SVR's (DeMartino/McLaughlin)

1 No Fear Millenium Inbred

1 Eagle lake bird

1 Don Kelsey Delbar/Horeman

4 Red Rose birds 2 are SVR's

6 Norage loft birds (Oak Haven, Dave Shewmaker, National Ace line, 05 blood, and Hofkens)

2 Lee Kohli birds (no peds)

2 Bill Michalski birds (no peds)

2 Bogdon Chelebek birds (no peds)

So, as you can see I have everything under the sun. My question is anyone elses stock like this? Also are any of you using simular stock to some of mine and doing well? Do you like any certain crosses I might do? I am shuffling my pairs right now and remating alot of stuff.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think many famous champion racers of the past have stocks that are from many different lofts. Then after they die people assume that the birds are now a particular strain. Maybe you should worry less on different strain, but rather on winning birds. In other words, if they win who cares about the strain/family?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Not everyone in my family is the same. We may share one or two common things but otherwise we're all our own person. That applies to pigeons as well, in my opinion. A good pigeon is a good pigeon, regardless of what name you stick with it. And personally, I'd rather race good pigeons than good names. Because last time I checked, names don't have wings and fly hundreds of miles.....pigeons do 


I have a theory on this in the genetics side of it, but I'm too tired to explain all of that. It all comes down to breeding good birds to good birds, gives you a better chance of making more good birds. If not, I guess you picked the wrong good ones to put together  That was a mouthful


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

There are many theories on this. Most of us have a hodge podge of bloodlines. I think if I were you I would pair the birds up by the distances that the particular birds from each fancier fly. I would put them in three categories, speed birds, middle distance, and long distance. 

Breed them then find the pairs that win for you and integrate their offspring and other winners into your breeding program. 

I have a variety of birds. What I try to do is start with siblings off of proven breeders and cross them out. Put their youngsters together. If they hit, I start a related group of birds from the originals and the birds down from them. I will cross this group with like distance birds that I feel are possibly better. 

Right now I have three groups of birds. A speed family 100-250, speed middle 200-300, and a middle distance family 250-350 as young birds. I will bring birds in, but try and pair them with like birds. This year I have brought in select birds to cross in from outside the group.

I think it is very important to eliminate birds that do not produce winners. The key here is to only stock winners or producers of winners. I am not a proponent of culling birds, but rather like to give them away. I do not like to keep more than 40 birds in my breeding program at a time. A good rule of thumb is if a bird come in one must leave. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> I know alot of people say breed from a family. Even the AU booklets you get say not to get pigeons from all over but instead get a family. Well I did not listen to that at all. I was making a list of my breeding stock and this is what I came up with, I was like wow! Everyone has 20+ pairs right? I know thats alot but I plan to send 20-30 birds out to races this year, plus breed my yb's.
> 
> 3 local race winners
> 
> ...


It really depends on what your goals are. If you simply enjoy pigeons and want to have a flock of homing pigeons flying around your property, or if you simply enjoy some club racing, it really is not necessary to own foundation quality birds from a close knit family.

Your situation of having a little bit of everything is very typical. So don't become depressed over your situation.....you at least have managed to acquire some racing pigeons ! 

Of course there is a reason why even the beginner booklets suggest that you start with a family of pigeons instead of a Heinz 57 approach. And again it goes back to what your goals might be, when you say send you plan to send 20-30 birds out to races this year, does that mean your local club races ? Or are you referring to One Loft and Futurity type events ?

At any rate, you are where you are in terms of your breeding stock, at some point you might to revisit your original decision about your breeding stock, and you might want to think about why even the beginner's booklets suggest starting with a family...but that might be another thread.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Ohiogsp,

How I am *"building"* a family!

I started back into this sport with birds from 12 different fliers. After racing them and keeping only what flew and/or bred the best I am down to birds from only 5 of these fliers. I will not bring any more birds into the breeding loft for the next few years unless they are flown and tested stock from the same fliers and blood I have now. I would like to say also that most of these birds are from only three flyers. From the other two fliers I have kept only 1 bird from one and 2 from the other. I will find over the next few years what crosses well together and what does not. Of these crossings only the best will stay!!! If I have birds that will not cross well they will be bred seperatly or possibly cut from my breeding program completely. These birds will become my family of birds. It is the choices I make in the breeding loft that will determine the quality of my family of birds.

Something for you to think about if you want to breed and race the best birds you can. *Your birds are only as good as your breeding program!! * You will I'm sure breed some good young by breeding everything to everything as many do, but you will never get the consistancy a top breeder/racer will get with his/her strict breeding program.

Just a little food for thought,

Ace


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

OK,you have all these good pigeons...Now,you have to find out which 3 or 4 cocks are the best breeders,and the best 3 or 4 hens...You do this by racing the YB`s...After 2 or 3 years,you should have a good feel which 4 pairs you want to keep as the start of "YOUR FAMILY"...After another few years,you will have a few of sons and daughters in the stock loft,from your original 4 pairs..Now you have a "Family"...They are being blended into ONE,so to speak...You might have to add a VG pigeon, from outside the family as a cross,once in a while,but it to will also get blended into the family,if it produces VG youngsters for you.....Alamo


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow, you guys are really helping me out with some great advise. I will try to answer some questions now.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Right now I have three groups of birds. A speed family 100-250, speed middle 200-300, and a middle distance family 250-350 as young birds. I will bring birds in, but try and pair them with like birds. This year I have brought in select birds to cross in from outside the group.
> 
> Randy


I would try to do this with pairing for distance but I am not sure what is what for the most part. Alot of these birds are new to me this year. Some I know and breed that way but most I wil have to wait and see next year I guess.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And again it goes back to what your goals might be, when you say send you plan to send 20-30 birds out to races this year, does that mean your local club races ? Or are you referring to One Loft and Futurity type events ?


I am going to send birds to the KCL race and the "Month of Sundays" race in Illinios and one local furturity. Then I am going to let people buy 10-15 birds of mine for our auction race here (other combine club members). This will allow me to breed more birds to test and not have to fly myself. Plus we do a breeder handler split so I might even win some money if they do good with my birds.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> It really depends on what your goals are. If you simply enjoy pigeons and want to have a flock of homing pigeons flying around your property, or if you simply enjoy some club racing, it really is not necessary to own foundation quality birds from a close knit family.



Well, my goal is to win at the local level then start winning at events I send birds out to. Isn't that everyones goals?  I will give you a summary of my last season. I was in the top ten in 7 races. My birds placed 3, 6, 6, 7, 8, 8, and 8th place. I only started with 23 birds and was racing against 100-200 most weekends when I was sending 5 birds. I know these are not great results but it was my first year. Alot of these birds are new but I know my good stuff I have right now.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

*Why go with a family.*

The problem with birds from so many sources is all you have is a collection of race breeders. I did the same thing when i was racing.
If you want to fly for a few years it works out ok.
In fact it seems most fliers are doing it now. BUT if i had it to do over, or when i do it again, i will find 3 or 4 pairs from a breeder who has not crossed out in a long time and is consistent in results.
I guess it depends on how long you want to fly, or how serious you want to get. 
After several years, unless less you start to breed those blood lines closer, you you have to look for more stock. That does not mean you can not breed a family out of the birds you have.
If this makes no sense, please forgive me, its been a ROUGH day!
Although it is dated,"Rotundo on racing pigeons" explains the value of a closely related flock.
Unless you keep a lot of breeders, it is best to pick a distance, and breed for those races.
My main stock was HVR'S so i worked on 200mi. and up.
They were pluggers, and in a race that was tough, i did very well.
Hind sight is 20/20 as they say, but if i had it to do over i would have kept that strain, OR "family" and instead of just getting out of racing, i would breed for 1 loft races ect. JMHO, Dave.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My foundation birds were 12 birds from the same flier. All but two had Vic Miller Birds as their foundation and all were siblings of sucessful fliers. This made it very easy for me. I acuired 4 sets of siblings. This simplified thing emensly. I know the quality was there because 8/12 have bred me winners. Two have been eliminated and the other two I am trying new pairings and using for pumpers. The majority of my other birds are offspring of the 8.

I am bringing in birds that have been successful racers down from my birds and stock that is equal or better on the race sheet. The breed up philosopy. 

I would take a hard look at the race sheets next year and keep the best. I might give them one more chance at a new pairing and then out they should go. 

A strategy this year that I am using is if they have not bred a top 10% bird they are gone. If not a winner they are split up after two years. 

Randy


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I didn`t know you had a multitude of different distance pigeons...In that case,you have to keep each distance seperate,so to speak...If I was only a YB flyer,starting out,I would get the best middle distance birds I could afford to buy,from a Top Loft All-American YB flyer...Even if I purchased birds from two different lofts,I would/should have birds that I could mate to any of what I purchased...With so many types of birds you have,you better have one LARGE loft,so you can keep them seperate....Alamo


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I have one more question for you guys. I have a cock from ace line. 3 of 4 grandparents were National Ace pigeons, and his mother was a sibling to an National Ace that bred 2 Ace pigeons. The sire bred 11 winners in 2 years. What do I pair this with. I have no idea I don't have a hen like this and my best might not be good enough. I have a hen from Tony Rossi's Van loons paired to him right now. The hen's mother bred a Ace pigeon and both parents bred lots of winners. I just don't know if this might not be a good cross cause the Van Loons are a sprint bird right? The cocks I am talking about has Hekken Klak, Dutch King, and Black princess as grandparents and the dam is a sister to Victory if that helps.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alamo said:


> With so many types of birds you have,you better have one LARGE loft,so you can keep them seperate....Alamo


I have 5 lofts. 3 red rose style lofts and 2 8 x 16 feet lofts. One of the large lofts in my yb flying loft it also has a 3 foot aviary that is part of the loft. I am also using one of the red rose lofts as a yb overflow or out of area birds loft. I got lots of room to keep all the birds.


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## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

Does the birds in the past generations really play a big part in its future? I look through the auctions an web sites but people never really talk about the bird only there past and whats on paper. I believe the bird makes the paper. I believe could have a bird from GFL or CBS an just because its great sire is a 20x 1st place bird and its great great great dam is ace breeder doesn't necessarily mean the bird in the now is good(in my belief). I think birds should race before they are breeders. I like the idea that HILLFAMILYLOFT said about breeding only the birds that are in the top 10% or closest. Why use birds that are unproven just because there brothers and sisters do good doesn't mean they will. I think you will have better odds breeding the best your can get to the best you can get. breed the 2 birds that do the best results and breed there best daughter back to the father and mother to son. That's my plan. 


Why do people breed birds for stock? Is that just another ploy for sellers? Im still a greenhorn but Thats my opinion.....


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

if i will you.....i willl pair any availalbe birds and breed all of them and test all the offspring (note dont breed for stock unless their tested)then who ever give you the best result..... then you built your family line with that particular pair and used the rest as pumpers.... but it takes time and alot of patience.... unles if you have the money you can go for a short cut buy 3 to 4 pairs of winning all american blood that built to fly at your distance ... 

danny


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Don't Reinvent the Wheel....Follow the example of Great Masters*



LUCKYT said:


> The problem with birds from so many sources is all you have is a collection of race breeders. I did the same thing when i was racing.
> If you want to fly for a few years it works out ok.
> In fact it seems most fliers are doing it now. BUT if i had it to do over, or when i do it again, i will find 3 or 4 pairs from a breeder who has not crossed out in a long time and is consistent in results.
> I guess it depends on how long you want to fly, or how serious you want to get.
> ...



Hello Dave,

If one reads enough of the greats, like you have, then it seems so obvious as to why beginner booklets suggest starting with a small number of proven birds from a proven "family" or "strain". 

What happens of course, is some of the details get over looked, and perhaps because of marketing or advertising, fanciers get confused, by thinking in terms of "brand" names or pedigrees only. 

The whole point of starting with a small number of proven, closely bred birds, is to produce some consistency. I think you understand this, but many do not, and simply assign such thinking as just so many "theories" out there.

If I can use an extreme example to make a point. Suppose that one goes out there, and secures 20 different breeds of pigeons. Fantails, tipplers, Nuns, Rollers, etc. etc. you name it. Yes, in time, through selective breeding, and maybe 200 generations, one could build a family of fine racers. For some people, maybe 175 generations, and for others perhaps 300+ generations. 

The same thing can also be done, with a collection of 20 different racing pigeons, except it should not take nearly as long...depending on the quality of course. As is often the case however, your typical fancier is not going to start with 20 different Champion Ace pigeons. More often, it will be a collection of pigeons below world class Champion level. If they start with Ace Champions, then it might be done in as little as 10 generations or so...more often longer. If they are more typical....which would be typical....perhaps 20 or more generations might be needed. 

Personally, I am not 20 years old anymore, I did not want to spend 15 or 20 extra generations just to get half started. So, I went to a Master of International fame and his birds, who as a young kid, had learned the art from his grandfather, and by the 1970's...he was on his own...and he invested three decades developing a closely knit family which produced 7 National Champions. So, I let him spend the first 30 years of hard work. And then I purchased a full sister to one of his National Champions, which not only raced well, but produced his #1 YB one year. Then I had him choose a racing cock within his family which raced well and was related to this hen, and which he thought would work well. Then I purchased YB's from some of his crack racers, which were all within the family tree. Then I used the proven YB's from these various pairs which showed themselves in racing, and bred them to other branches within my family, which had the same kind of story. The result now, is a larger family tree with a number of branches. I'm convinced I saved myself 20 or more years of breeding from day one. 

When other outstanding pigeons are found and secured, which are potentially even better, they are mated to proven birds within the family. Just as the other original Masters did with their family over the decades. This way the family is not simply a stagnant line bred family line, but one which is moving forward and making advances, and improving all the time. The proto type of the 1990's is no longer good enough, the birds acquired in the last number of years, will be replaced with the newer, faster, better. A never ending cycle. 

Those who simply start with a wide ranging collection, producing all types, shapes, sizes, distances, etc. even if starting with all National Champs to start with, have not been able to keep up on race day. When they do manage to win, it is because they focused some pairings around a particular family of one of those National Champs, and not simply a hodge podge of this and that. My point in this is made for me, by some well known fanciers with their $Million dollar inventories. They are fantastic merchants, but are of little threat on race day.

Well, that's my take...my story, and I am sticking with it...just like the Masters from old days or the present have preached all these years. I'm not going to try to reinvent the wheel.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Very well put Warren! Racing pigeons is not a new sport, and getting pigeons from all over the place is not a great plan. I will not do it when i fly again, (if i do). I will not even mention the number of prisoners i kept looking for the pair that clicked! One thing that needs to be mentioned in this discussion is that some birds fly great, and never breed a winner, were as some birds fly like garbage but produce great fliers. When i was flying the ONE thing i did right was the second season i kept 4 off my young team, even thou they showed nothing in the races. All related to what i liked to call my best pair, a retired widow cock and a hen from the same loft. I kept them just because i needed the pairs to build next years young bird team,it was more sentimental than anything, THEIR offspring ROCKED as young birds the next year. There were some races i had 3 or 4 young off of those breeders in the top ten or 20 for most races 200 and up. Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think we may be a little rough on Ohio. From the list of things his hodge podge look like birds from good stock. Telling him whether his methods are right or wrong should be left to the basket. My thoughts are a good breeder could take his quiver of birds and develop a winning group or family with them. The paint may be there, just need to put it on canvas. 

As for the breeding you are talking about, let them fly and that should be your only answer to the question. Chances are they may breed quality if they are off of quality. I always try and breed above that 90% line. Thus only birds that race or breed top 10% birds. If you can't get those get brothers and sisters or the closest related birds you can find. 

Many fanciers breed by the paper. Some succeed, but most can be found lower in the race sheet. 

The guys that win Champion Loft, High Points Bird, and Average Speed are they guys to imulate. They are the ones with the best birds and best methods. 

20% 18/71 of my YB bird last year had top 10% finishes. Of these 13% or 9 had top 10 finishes. 25 or 35% were what I would call decent youngbirds or finishes in the top 20% on the race sheet. I had 1st, 2nd, 3rds, etc in races. Results like these are what should be used when choosing breeders not paper. First I look for those birds that have not bred me decent birds this year or winners in the past, and they go. Next I look at the top 20%, is this good enough to stay in the loft. I keep the top 10% breeders for next year. I have a number of pairs that I have in mind each year. I then foster from the top of the pyrimid down.

Some fanciers are happy with 5% good birds. I think this will get 95% of your birds last in the trap. Paper is only good for one thing and I prefer the soft fluffy kind. 

Let your birds tell you. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing I will say to back Warren's point on this matter, is when you look at those that are winning now, most started with good birds of a particular family. Nick Kowalchuck and Elton Dinga are two that come to mind. Warren has had great results with his fore mentioned philosopy. I also agree that the method does speed things up. Let those that suceed before you help clear the path. It is easier to experiment with winners than to make winners out of barn birds. 

Ohio may just look to his birds and begin to categorize them by conformation, what the strain is supposed to do, etc for breeding, and then by race results. Then skim the cream off the top and start over. 

Next year will be my fifth year breeding and if all goes well, I will be able to be confident that all the birds I have breeding have the potential to breed a winning bird. If my above percentages do not go up, then what I am doing should be re-thought.

Randy


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Amen! Sounds like you have a plan, results are what matters.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Alot of this is just common sense. Of course I will keep winners and breed from them and I am breeding from my proven stuff I have already. Alot of new unknown stock that I got this year is more of the question for me. Alot of these unknow to me birds are from stock that is doing pretty well and are proven breeders. Even the birds with no peds maybe very good birds. Bill Michalski won the motor city classic and the AU convention race last year. Lee Kohli won the ohio-penn federation series last year. I did keep put a couple in the stock loft from racing last year. Not winners cause I did not win any races but one flew 6 races and placed 8th from 340 miles. I thought this might be something I would like to have more of. So I paired it to my cock that bred a bird for me that got 6th in the same 340. This is the kind of stuff I am looking for to race our auction race this year. I also got a winner from the 340 from 2 years ago and a auction race winner from our club (our auction is a 340). Also my hit pair from tad are bred from birds that won at 340miles. I plan to breed a family for the money races out of these birds.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

FACT is you can go out and buy the best 20 pair of birds in the entire world. Yes the best And still theses 20 pair CAN NOT raise the top birds. They can raise if you are lucky the 5 to 10 percent rule. And a few that would help others. Figure 20 out of 100 birds. And 5 might be your keepers. SO still 80 birds are not race birds. No breed of pigeon or animal exsiste that can produce champ after champ. But all can produce a small percent. It is a fact. A person can only keep good records and try to improve. All by starting some where Be it top birds or fare quality birds. Then control the level of breeding by performance. Real idea many NEVER do is it takes at least 3 years of racing to select A new bird for the breeding loft. WHY because by 3 years that bird has demonstrated its full performance worth.. 1 as a young bird 2 as a yearling 3 as a full mature old bird. At that time Chance is reduced on its Breeding value. NOW remembering family lines are and have been bred to perform at certion distances. so testing beyond these factors Bring a change in what you are expecting. You are forming your desired line. If you want birds that perform great to the 300 hundred you breed that type if you want distance birds you breed that type also. if you need a few harder weather birds you breed them also. So now you have 3 types all in your program And have to expect 3 results on your selection. In the breeding loft. A pedigree Is nothing more then records for good breeding NOT a sell item as many use it for. Many top birds show some pretty good past performers in there ped, BUT remember perhaps 500 of those birds relatives were discarded Because they were not good at all. GOOD meaning top.champ whatever you call your best birds. It is a life long program As while you work your birds every other loft is working theres slack off and you fall down the list. Find out what you need breed down that line. select birds from other lofts that fits your program. You can not just breed 1 line for all race needs. Unless you breed for a certion distance. And remember each line will produce birds that can be used for those points of interest. Anybody who thinks they have it whipped and can produce over 10 percent of top birds ecah year or even 10 percent of keeper birds WELL they are getting fooled by there own eye. Thats why so many sale birds get offered with pretty papers and NO results in the breeding loft or in the races. Because MONEY has turned people into peddlers. And A hobby is a way to make back there money and then some. I suggest you get what you can afford and build from there and add a little at a time. JUST a few make it to the top and most should just be having fun And keep trying. And when those at the top race many of there club members hate them because they can not win. So being at the top is good and bad. Share the wealth by helping others by not turning into a peddler but by doing for other as you did for your self. Never sell a bird you would not use at least as a race bird. Not a fill in bird But a true race bird.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

I say now that you have them just breed off the best of the best from the race sheets and make your way to the top of what you got


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