# Losses of Young Birds



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

What sort of losses do you usually suffer during a young bird season? I understand that its different each year and each race, that conditions dictate losses and such but for those who have done this for years, if you were to look back over the years, on average, what percent roughly do you think you have dealt with? Of course again, I understand that it depends on the trainer and training... OR what is the best year you've ever had and the worst year you've ever had percentage wise? Just curious as this is my first season racing.


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## GrLkLoft (Apr 30, 2012)

Well John, I think all the birds you got from Viper will be lost in the first race
How is the training going? Good luck hope you do well.

Bill


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks Bill! Lost a few of them but the rest are still doing well. The one named lil Viper got lost though. Was pretty sad about that. Looking forward to the races though.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

V-John said:


> Thanks Bill! Lost a few of them but the rest are still doing well. The one named lil Viper got lost though. Was pretty sad about that. Looking forward to the races though.


You learned your first lesson then, don't name them lol. You can loose anywhere from 5% to 100% depends on how good of a handler you are.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

First To Hatch said:


> You learned your first lesson then, don't name them lol. You can loose anywhere from 5% to 100% depends on how good of a handler you are.


Lol. Its almost like a guarantee to lose birds isnt it?  the reason I ask,is just trying to get a sense of the next season and the next breeding season etc.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

V-John said:


> Lol. Its almost like a guarantee to lose birds isnt it?  the reason I ask,is just trying to get a sense of the next season and the next breeding season etc.


You have to see how you do this year based on losses. Then based off of this years losses you consider yourself lucky to have lost "only" the number you did. 

For example last year I started out with 27 pigeons, started training with 23, went to the first race with 22, ended up with 13 after 10 races. 

This year I am doing 40 pigeons, and am at 35 right now..lets see what happens, but I can't ever see myself wanting more than 40 young-birds I am finding 35 too be a lot of work because I was so used to having 22 pigeons for the longest time.

Do not worry about getting breeders there is a lot of good pigeons out there in my opinion so you don't need to get all worked up right now about breeders and such, many will gift you some I bet. If you get a young bird or two..or three that are your first pigeons all the time and come home from 300 miles and never loose a race by more than 10 minutes then stock them and breed from them. 

I might have some breeders in the fall as well, that I might be able to gift to you. I'm at 10 pairs with an extra cock, but would love to be at 8 pairs. No idea what to get rid of either!


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

First To Hatch said:


> I might have some breeders in the fall as well, that I might be able to gift to you. I'm at 10 pairs with an extra cock, but would love to be at 8 pairs. No idea what to get rid of either!


Thank you! This is why this board so great. Your generosity is very much appreciated... 
I guess ill have to wait and see what happens like you said. Thank you!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Been averaging losses of 5.5 birds per year the last 6 years in YB racing...That`s why I only breed about 20 for myself to fly....Don`t need any more then that......Alamo


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Alamo said:


> Been averaging losses of 5.5 birds per year the last 6 years in YB racing...That`s why I only breed about 20 for myself to fly....Don`t need any more then that......Alamo


Yes I think thats very possible IMO, but only if you don't listen to the stuff you find on the internet!!! I have a feeling you do it the way the old timers that always win and never lost birds did. Which is progress them slowly so many guys start out too far for a first toss in my opinion.


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## Fencer (Feb 1, 2012)

*Loses*

Many things are to be considered here . Every year is different . Last year I took mine 35 miles first toss , lost 4 , that's all till races started. This year took 40 3 miles lost half , then lost half of the half off the roof one day . All were out to 5th or 6th flight . I think this year might just be different. , who knows.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

FENCER......Unless you really want to lose your birds,why take them 35 miles on the 1st toss ?? 10/20 miles 1st toss for January bred birds in June/July OK.....But you are better off taking them 5....10....15....20....25.....40.......50.......60......75/80 miles.....Then they are well trained,and ready to race....You want them to be confident in their training....Building confidence in the team is crucial....Alamo


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## Fencer (Feb 1, 2012)

*Loses*

Well I don't have answers . Just thoughts . I think sometimes birds left go close to home get up and gone and fly awhile before they think about heading for home maybe get lost , I don't know.Just that this year at 3 miles I lost half a team of 40 and last year 4 out 70 from 35 miles . Do I believe this is the way? Nope. But it does seem different year to year


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Alamo said:


> FENCER......Unless you really want to lose your birds,why take them 35 miles on the 1st toss ?? 10/20 miles 1st toss for January bred birds in June/July OK.....But you are better off taking them 5....10....15....20....25.....40.......50.......60......75/80 miles.....Then they are well trained,and ready to race....You want them to be confident in their training....Building confidence in the team is crucial....Alamo


I agree..I used to think the Rotondo method was a cool idea but think about it ..would you want your first excercise run to be 2 miles or a marathon 40 miles?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I think Rotondo's idea is good, this is not your first excercise if your birds are routing for an hour or so, then 35 miles is a good place to start. If your birds don't route then you better start at 5 or 10 miles. It all depends on where the birds are, 4 years ago my birds would not fly I had to start in the front yard.
Dave


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Rotondo`s idea with the 40 mile toss is two fold....#1.....He has been breeding from VG stock birds,who have proven to breed outstanding YB`s....#2....He would breed 90/100 yb`s....#3 He only wanted 60 YB`s on his team for the races....SO.....He would take them 40 miles to GET RID OF the DEADHEADS....Read the book....He wanted to LOSE the garbage.....I can`t beleive anyone would follow his method of a 1st toss,UNLESS,you wanted to lose some birds also....And don`t think he didn`t lose some GODD birds also....He told me that himself on the phone....Alamo


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well the way I was told you may lose some good birds, but you will not lose the great birds. Most people train the way Alamo does and that makes it real hard to tell the good from the great, and your average breeder can't tell the difference and the end up breeding from just good birds and never improve thier stock. people like Rotondo and Ludo could tell the difference, but they are one in a thousand.
Dave


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Crazy Pete,aka Dave,

Going to tell you why your wrong....The Janssen Bros would not send their birds to any races OVER 150 Miles....Because they didn`t want to lose a champion for any reason....Sending their birds on a 1st toss of 35/40 miles would not be in their thinking of teaching the birds to home as fast as they can....

Lesson learned by SFL.....He has purchased pigeons for BIG $$$$$,that I would not ever care to do....He lost YB`s from these wonderfull imported bloodlines that he has...That`s a lesson for all of us,who never have spent the big money he has.....

My family that I have for the last 25 years,is based on long distance lines...Sion/Stassart with Janssen`s added......I think I could send 8 to 10 YB`s on the 1st toss from these lines,and not lose any from 35/40 miles....But I am like the Janssen bros...Why would I ?? What would I gain ?? What will the birds learn ?? 

I told you Rotundo sent them 40 miles to lose the dead heads....NOT TO TEACH the excellent birds anything....That was his reason....What`s YOUR reason ??


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

You mean I have to have a reason, thats the way my dad did it back in the 60's thats just the way it was done. A few rears ago I started watching the birds and if they didn't fly well I would toss them a lot shorter.

Most of my birds are Fabry's, and I like those Clausing birds. Unlike the Janssen bros I think any thing less then 150 miles is just a training toss. I don't expect or even care if I win a 100 mile race

Last year my birds would route for 2hrs + so there first toss was about 40 mi, out of 67 birds I lost one. Then you drop back to 10 miles and teach them to home fast.
Dave


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I know there are a thousand ways to train,feed,medicate etc...That means there are many ways to get the birds to a point ready to race....I myself,like MY DAD,only breeds 20/24 birds for the YB season...I do not wish to lose a bird @ 40 miles on the 1st toss....Maybe if I bred 60 birds,I would consider that as an option,to get rid of any subpar specimens...Sometimes we do things OUR FATHERS did,many years ago...But things that our dad`s did years ago,might not hold true today...Pigeon racing has advanced alot since the 1960`s when my dad raced in New York....400/500 lofts,and 4,000 to 6,000 birds in Sunday races....No One Loft races back then,I don`t think....When I started in 1984,I bred 40/45 birds to fly...They would trip for 2 to 3 hours every day...As I started to lower my YB count bred over the years,I found out they would not fly for 3 hours anymore...What was the reason,I asked myself.....I fed them the same,I trained them the same,I bred them in the same months,medicated them the same,but something was different....The only thing that I could come up with was the birds were very happy IN THE LOFT.....20 birds had 40 perches to chose from...No fighting for a favorite perch...The 40/45 birds in the old days fought all day for a perch...I think they were happy to get OUT of the darn loft,and all the fighting that went about in there all day...To this day,the young birds that I have,are very content to be inside...The young cock birds chase the hens around,and don`t stop cooing even to eat....I take them out for a toss,and they go in and coo around while the hens,and the 2nd round team eat their morning meal....I sit for a hour in the loft,and it`s so noisey in there,you think they were all OLD birds,looking for a mate etc...They don`t stop running around....I assume they are very healthy,by their actions,and droppings,and pink skin color and a pinkish mouth....Yet,they will not loft fly for more then 1 hr....The young cocks want IN the loft....They are all fighting to be the alpha male in the section...I hope that`s motivation on race day....These birds are March hatched...They have made (3) 60 mile tosses by May 26th...That doesn`t mean I took them 40 miles the 1st toss....I started at a 5 miler....Then 5 @10 miles....4 @ 20 miles....2 @ 25....2 @ 35....then the 60 milers....
Then I locked them up for a month....July 4th,I started training again @ 20 miles....and last Saturday,they were back to 60 miles again,for the 4th time....My 1st race is August 11th....I should have them in decent shape by then,I hope...They are well trained,but not in racing condition yet....This is my way how to do it...Maybe not the way written in stone,but what way about training pigeons IS written in stone ?? There`s not a big enough stone to carve the ways into it !!! Alamo


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Great discussion guys, I'm enjoying reading the posts.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

If that works for you and you win races great, but the only reason to do that many tosses from the 10 and 20 mile stations you must have a good fishin whole there. lol

Never thought about why we did things that way, so I went to moms and found the notebook from 1967 and I think it all started as a bet on who would loose the most birds. Dad won and just kept doing things the same way. I think in 69 they did a 100 mile first toss, and then all it says is "bad results wont do that again" So maybe I should rethink things I have had some years with "bad results"
Dave


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Dave,your Dad had alot of guts taking the birds 100 miles on the 1st toss...But I beleive that he really had confidence that they would all make it home.....Even our Dad`s made mistakes with the YB`s...So I don`t feel so bad,since I have made many over ther years...Good Luck.....Alamo


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## pigeonwhisperer1 (Jul 10, 2012)

*losses*

I have seen many birds lost in short tosses. What I am finding is that the birds have had good exercise while loft flying prior to a short road toss and often just overfly their lofts. i would start training at 15 miles. This is my first year racing and I have only lost one bird and a hawk was responsible for that.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

First toss 1/4 mile. 100 % returns.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

If you belive the birds can make it thats one thing, but to do it on a bet is some thing else. All these years and I never really red the journal, may I should try to find out where else I've been misled.
Dave


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Granny Smith said:


> Great discussion guys, I'm enjoying reading the posts.


X2!!!!!
I was talking with my mentor and he brought up the fact that he knew a guy who's first toss was from 35 miles... And how he couldn't do that because his birds weren't bred for that and the guy he knew birds were. 

That may have something to do with it as well, as it seems different folks breed for different types of birds. 
But heck, what do I know? 

I tossed my birds in groups of three and four yesterday from forty miles by last night I was ten or eleven out of thirty. Some are still straggling in and I'm worried for the rest. They had beem tossed from this spot twice before, same conditions, same time. Although someone said something about sunspots.... But I dont know.

As an aside I know we shouldnt toss next to rivers but what about lakes? There is a lake in the vicinity but its only 434 acres so it isnt huge by any means... thoughts?

Thanks guys!


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

*losses*

I doubt the birds really know they are going across water, it just ground to them. Mine go across the Mississippi river almost ever toss. We have thousands of lakes, most of our race stations are MN , land of 10,000 lakes.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

BetaPigeon said:


> I doubt the birds really know they are going across water, it just ground to them. Mine go across the Mississippi river almost ever toss. We have thousands of lakes, most of our race stations are MN , land of 10,000 lakes.


I think the birds definitely know the difference between land and water. I'd heard a story from one of the flyers in my club that race birds going to San Francisco sometimes fly right alongside the Bay Bridge from Oakland to SF instead of across the open water. Then I saw my young birds do the same thing in a similar situation on their first toss where they had to cross a section of the bay where I live. It seems like they're always freaked out by it the first couple times they experience it.

I had taken them road training from 6 miles which is right on the close side of the bay near the edge of the water and they did a straight shot back each time. Next drop point was just across the water so I crossed the bridge to the other side to the 8 mile drop overlooking the bay just on the other side of the bay and it was like they didn't know what hit them. You can see the land on the other side and it's probably only about a mile wide but they took off, grouped up and then just kept flying back and forth along the marshy shoreline for about 10 minutes.

I wasn't too worried so I got in the truck and was driving back down across the bridge and lo and behold the big group of my young birds had backtracked down the bay a little and was now flying right next to the bridge. They were skimming along just above the train trestle bridge that is right between the 2 car bridges used for each direction of traffic. To use the bridge they had to backtrack about a mile or 2 in the wrong direction away from a straight line shot back to the house but once they were on the other side of the bridge they hit that 6 mile drop point they had trained from many times and took off like a shot for home.

Now I'm not saying they will use the bridge each and every time, I'm sure they eventually get used to crossing the water and just do it without hesitation with some experience. But they definitely know the difference between going across land and going across water!


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

A fellow club member took his birds 40 miles for a first toss because he started training so late and had 100% returns.

If I was retired old guy, had a lot of time, then I would raise 120 young birds and do a first toss at about 25-40 miles. 

But right now I have a job, school and, 30 +/- pigeons so I'll start training at 1-2 miles.


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

Matt M said:


> I think the birds definitely know the difference between land and water. I'd heard a story from one of the flyers in my club that race birds going to San Francisco sometimes fly right alongside the Bay Bridge from Oakland to SF instead of across the open water. Then I saw my young birds do the same thing in a similar situation on their first toss where they had to cross a section of the bay where I live. It seems like they're always freaked out by it the first couple times they experience it.
> 
> I had taken them road training from 6 miles which is right on the close side of the bay near the edge of the water and they did a straight shot back each time. Next drop point was just across the water so I crossed the bridge to the other side to the 8 mile drop overlooking the bay just on the other side of the bay and it was like they didn't know what hit them. You can see the land on the other side and it's probably only about a mile wide but they took off, grouped up and then just kept flying back and forth along the marshy shoreline for about 10 minutes.
> 
> ...


One of my first few toss is across Lake Onalaska, 3 miles wide, then across the Mississippi river, never seen them hesitated for a second.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> Rotondo`s idea with the 40 mile toss is two fold....#1.....He has been breeding from VG stock birds,who have proven to breed outstanding YB`s....#2....He would breed 90/100 yb`s....#3 He only wanted 60 YB`s on his team for the races....SO.....He would take them 40 miles to GET RID OF the DEADHEADS....Read the book....He wanted to LOSE the garbage.....I can`t beleive anyone would follow his method of a 1st toss,UNLESS,you wanted to lose some birds also....And don`t think he didn`t lose some GODD birds also....*He told me that himself on the phone....Alamo*


When did you talk to him last ? I tried a first training toss of 192 miles I think it was in 2010, may do it again this year with some lines. Conditioning seems to be a key, as well as having birds with a good homing instinct.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Joe Rotundo is deceased...I had talked with him probally 20 years ago,when I was a Rookie pigeon racing guy...I had his book,and wanted to know more about slow moulting pigeons etc...He was friendly and gave me as much info as I needed at the time...Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> Joe Rotundo is deceased...I had talked with him probally 20 years ago,when I was a Rookie pigeon racing guy...I had his book,and wanted to know more about slow moulting pigeons etc...He was friendly and gave me as much info as I needed at the time...Alamo


 Yeah I know he is, he died in 1980, so I was figuring this conversation took place in the 1970's which means you are pretty old !


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Here is a little story for you. Almost 3 years ago I was diagnosed with Avian Pulmonary Disease (pigeon breeders disease). It was/is very debilitating and your lungs don't work right. H___, mine hardly worked at all. I got rid of a lot of my birds but kept some. I was only in the loft a minimal time to feed, water & band babies. My young birds for two years were never trained, but they had open loft 24/7. This spring I gave 20 birds to some young fellows that lived over 100 miles from me. The birds got split up among a number of people, and most it turns out did not have the experience or facilities to keep them. To date 6 of the 20 have returned from over 100 miles with no training of any kind other than open loft.
Birds of quality breeding can home even in conditions that most would not expect. I believe that a lot of short tosses can certainly not harm the birds, but it probably does little toward training them for the actual races.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I don`t think ANYONE on this board has said you can`t get pigeons to home from far out,even on the 1st toss....But my question is WHY would you take YB`s 100 mies or whatever distance you care to take them,just for the sake of "Let me see how many I get back" !!!

How about I put you on a 707,and fly you over Iran,and push you out with a parashoot,and lets see HOW LONG IT TAKES YOU TO GET HOME ??? I bet my life you would not let anyone do that to you....Why ?? Sudden death to you !!! So how many birds are you giving the SUDDEN DEATH to,for the sake of your "Just for the heck of it,to see who makes it back" !!!

PETA just loves you guys telling this on here in print.....Why don`t you just call PETA and tell them your fantastic way YOU train your babies for the races...They will love to interview
you,and put YOU in their ads.......Alamo


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

If your above comments are directed to my post, I think you are off base. I do not advocate anyone training from 100 miles on a first toss. I don't even think training from 100 miles is reasonable or advisable regardless of how many training flights they have been on previously. I have never trained beyond 70 miles myself, but I have trained on a first toss of 50 miles and not lost a bird.
I have little regard for PETA or what they say. It is an organization that kills 85%+ of animals that they purportedly rescue. It is a sham for those at the top to make outrageous incomes from donations of the well intentioned but misinformed.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

EJB3810......Not pointing a finger or anything at anyone....You have to stop and think what I`m saying in context,to the part of this thread,that is related to training YB`s on a 1st toss way out to no mans land,to see if they will return....If the 1st toss is well over 20/25 miles,the toss is unreasonable....There are alot of NEW pigeon guys/gals on this site...Giving them the wrong info is not good for the hobby...Also,any new people who have not even purchased any racing birds yet,and built a loft,will be thinking how CRUEL we are to send YB`s out at great distances,to just see if they will make it home,,on the 1st toss....It serves no good purpose for a beginner to read this,and think his/her birds can make it....Joe Rotundo was a experienced fancier before he started doing his 40 mile toss....He had high quality breeders,and knew his bloodlines were capable of the task....But he still LOST many YB`s doing it HIS way...It does not have to be OUR way,or the way a NEW flyer has to do it...I usally go no more then 75 miles,even when the 1st race is a few weeks away....I like training at 40/50 miles alot...The birds need to pick up something they are very familar with,when they reach this point from the loft...If they are with other birds,it helps if they see something that will wake them up,and fly a better line to the home loft....Alamo


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## birdman21 (Nov 30, 2011)

I remember talking to a friend of mine, who is also one of our local champs, and I told him I was gonna try Rotondos method. He looked at me, shrugged his shoulders and said "Go 'head, but they better not make no mistakes" what he meant was that when birds are slowly worked up to 40 miles, they already are familiar with the surroundings, so if they make a mistake, as most young birds do, they can eventually correct it and make it home. I hear lots of guys in the clubs talk smack about how they tossed their birds 40-50mi on the first hop and never lost a single one. But everytime I ask to take a ride with them to see, they get reeeeal quiet. Lol!


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