# To deworm a hen pigeon when it is about to lay eggs



## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

Dear Pigeon Keepers,

Can I deworm a hen pigeon that is about to lay eggs? 

One pair of my indian fantail pigeons has been mating since last ten days. From yesterday, they are gathering straw in nest bowl. But today I observed unusual droppings. Observing closely I found fragments of tape worm. I have not dewormed my pigeons before to start breeding process. 
What should I do know? Is there some anthelmintic drug that does not affect embryo and effective against tape worm. Also see the attached picture to confirm is it worm or something else?


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. Have you ever used this wormer before? I think if you have used it in the past, then use it again now and again in 2 or three weeks later. Or do as some recommend and alternate the wormed with a different type . The dropping itself is not normal, so it may be worm positive. Thanks for the picture.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I think I would go ahead and worm them and just toss the first eggs, they will lay again in 2 weeks. That's just what I would do, I think worms would take away some on the nutrients that the baby needs.
Dave


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

Thank you hamlet and crazy pete for replying.

I have not dewormed my birds before this.

I got this pair from a fancier (who keeps fancy birds. His loft and birds seem very healthy and neat) only a month ago. I asked him today about this problem. He told that he has not dewormed his birds from last two years, as he didnt need to. Here in my home birds have sometimes access to soil (maybe contaminated with earthworms). Maybe these birds got worms from here. 

So these have never been given any dewormer.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I'm so sorry for delay in replying. Actually I don't visit any PT forums other than general discussions usually.

It is always advisable to treat your birds for canker and deworm them before breeding.
If your hen is about to lay then I would not deworm her. Let her lay first and then deworm her. Because deworming birds when they are up with some other issue can actually kill the birds.
Tapeworms mainly affects the bowel of pigeons. Don't get me wrong but fewer tapeworms are not a big problem for pigeons but when they are more in numbers they can wreck havoc. That can be guessed by how oftenly you see tapeworms or their eggs in droppings. But the condition of dropping in the pic tells that your birds are seriously affected.
Winters are not a good time for breeding. I've lost 3 squabs to cold already inspite of putting an artificial heat source in the loft. So I would advice you to let her lay and throw the eggs away by replacing them with dummy eggs so that you can get enough time to deworm your birds.
There are many types of dewormers available but not all are safe for pigeons.
Moxidectin Plus is the dewormer of choice for pigeons which kills all types of worms that pigeons can have. Every dewormer has instructions on it which need to be followed and deworming MUST BE REPEATED after a advised gap of days to kill newly hatched worms because dewormer would kill live worms but not the eggs.
But I don't think you can find Moxidectin plus where you live.
But don't worry,there are alternative dewormers available. To kill tapeworms PRAZIQUANTEL is the drug you would need. It comes in combination with pyrantel pamoate and/or ivermectin. Do not use any other type of dewormer because most dewormers are toxic for pigeons. Please ask for Praziquantel which comes combined with ivermectin and/or pyrantel pamoate. That will kill all types of worms your pigeons can have. There is drug by the name of Bandystar which would be best for your pigeons,if you could get it there in Lahore. Its easily available here... And when you deworm,deworm all your pigeons at the same time and repeat the deworming with a gap of 21 days to break the lifecycle of worms. Means please deworm atleast twice,to be more sure, deworm thrice.


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

Thank you brocky for detailed reply; Enouph details.

*Droppings:* The picture was taken after offering 1L water with added juice of 3 lemons for bathing. My pigeons drink much while taking bath. Maybe this much acidic solution changed the consistency of droppings. Otherwise droppings are still normal and sometimes wet with clear water. Yesterday i was unable to find visually anything in droppings.
*Anthelmentics:* You are right, I tried a lot but could not find Moxidectin or even praziquantel. One of my pharmacist friend is working for registration of Moxidectin in Pakistan. I hope in near futur I will be able to find. As he is working in Veteranary plant, he has given me some herbal drug for all types of parasites. Let me try it
*Tossing eggs:* As I eaerlier told you, I am crazy to see pigeons breeding and youings growing up. I would not toss eggs. Sorry brocky but let me see what happens....

Once again thanx for your support


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Sorry for puting a question on this thread (to not open another one). I would like to perform a deworming at some feral pigeons that are free and which I feed (some that come to the food I put on my window and some that I feed in some public place).

I want to put some deworming medicine in their water or food. There are two flocks, the one that come at window of about 30 pigeons and the one in the public space (a vegetable market) of ~100 pigeons.

What medicine do you think would be proper?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> Sorry for puting a question on this thread (to not open another one). I would like to perform a deworming at some feral pigeons that are free and which I feed (some that come to the food I put on my window and some that I feed in some public place).
> 
> I want to put some deworming medicine in their water or food. There are two flocks, the one that come at window of about 30 pigeons and the one in the public space (a vegetable market) of ~100 pigeons.
> 
> What medicine do you think would be proper?



You probably won't be able to worm ferals, as they just won't drink the water, unless that were their only water source. And you wouldn't be able to control how much of the med they got.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Mudsi_pharmacist said:


> Thank you brocky for detailed reply; Enouph details.
> 
> Droppings: The picture was taken after offering 1L water with added juice of 3 lemons for bathing. My pigeons drink much while taking bath. Maybe this much acidic solution changed the consistency of droppings. Otherwise droppings are still normal and sometimes wet with clear water. Yesterday i was unable to find visually anything in droppings.
> Anthelmentics: You are right, I tried a lot but could not find Moxidectin or even praziquantel. One of my pharmacist friend is working for registration of Moxidectin in Pakistan. I hope in near futur I will be able to find. As he is working in Veteranary plant, he has given me some herbal drug for all types of parasites. Let me try it
> Tossing eggs: As I eaerlier told you, I am crazy to see pigeons breeding and youings growing up. I would not toss eggs. Sorry brocky but let me see what happens....


Here,they don't sell praziquantel without a prescription from a vet usually because there were some cases of misuse of praziquantel which killed pets. You will need a vet prescription or you can ask your pharmacist friend,if he can hook something means "je oh koi jugad kar deve". cuz I think praziquantel is available there where you live.
There are other dewormers like drontal plus, Dronicit Plus, pfizers combo dewormer, febental/albendazole/fenbendazole based dewormers etc that may be used for tapeworms. Many claim to have good results with them but they are not safe for pigeons. But in case of an emergency...I mean What else can one do? Gotta go with them...but I don't recommend them.

If you wanna keep the eggs then you're welcome. But parents will pass on the worms to their squabs so treat your birds after your hen lays eggs. That way while she be on eggs you may give her dewormer med with a gap of 12 days before eggs hatch


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> You probably won't be able to worm ferals, as they just won't drink the water, unless that were their only water source. And you wouldn't be able to control how much of the med they got.


The water is also put by me in a vessel which I clean daily. Is their main source of water, I find much / most of it (1 l) consummed. 

I wish to help at least some of them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't know where else they drink. It will put a taste in the water, and they may very well go elsewhere to drink. But if you are determined to do that, then look online for a deworming med that goes in the water. They sell them at pigeon supply places.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

AndreiS, dose less than required or overdose, BOTH are toxic to pigeons. When treating a feral flock,you never know,how many times and how much a bird is drinking. And if some feral hen is about to lay eggs or some bird is up with some bacterial infections or other problem, then deworming med can kill such a pigeon.

Most dewormers are bad in taste which ferals pigeons will refuse to drink and go somewhere else to drink. In loft situation, loft kept birds are bound to drink the treated water sooner or later,no matter how it tastes. And many dewormers require feed to be WITH HELD. Choose a dewormer according to your situation


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

brocky bieber said:


> *AndreiS, dose less than required or overdose, BOTH are toxic to pigeons. When treating a feral flock,you never know,how many times and how much a bird is drinking.* And if some feral hen is about to lay eggs or some bird is up with some bacterial infections or other problem, then deworming med can kill such a pigeon.
> 
> Most dewormers are bad in taste which ferals pigeons will refuse to drink and go somewhere else to drink. In loft situation, loft kept birds are bound to drink the treated water sooner or later,no matter how it tastes. And many dewormers require feed to be WITH HELD. Choose a dewormer according to your situation




While under dosing isn't toxic, it does have a negative effect by helping the worms to build a resistance to the drug. So that in the future, that drug would be less effective in killing the worms. So because you cannot control how much they get, they could easily be under dosed. It really isn't easy to deworm a feral flock, even though it would be nice to be able to.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

There are Cestode species of worms that bore their heads into the bowel of the birds with their bodies growing to reproduce into more segments. Worming meds are poisons that kill those worms by paralysing them first. Low dosages may not kill but sedate the worms until the bird passes them out. And their bodies may cause a blockage because pigeons are not supposed to digest meat. They are grain eaters and need grit to grind the feed in their gizzard. With nutrition,minerals and vitamins vital for metabolism already consumed by worms already making pigeon's metabolism weak,pigeons can have hard time maintaining normal digestion. When pigeons have serious worms infestations,low doses would sedate the worms and the bodies may cause blockage and then when trying to digest the toxic bodies of worms,it could interfere in biological filter and stimulate immune system hence can cause toxicity and even death in pigeons/doves because deworming drug is itself a poison afterall+low dosage can ofcourse help worms to develop resistance to drug


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The worms being paralized or dead is the same. They will then be passed out in the feces. The problem with a blockage is when a bird has too many worms, and they are paralyzed or dead, and when the bird tries to pass them, they can cause a blockage. That is because there are so many................not because you under dosed them. If there are many worms, them dying off can be toxic to the bird. But under dosing isn't toxic. It can help the worms to build an immunity to the drug, which I have already mentioned.


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Here,they don't sell praziquantel without a prescription from a vet usually because there were some cases of misuse of praziquantel which killed pets. You will need a vet prescription or you can ask your pharmacist friend,if he can hook something means "je oh koi jugad kar deve". cuz I think praziquantel is available there where you live.
> There are other dewormers like drontal plus, Dronicit Plus, pfizers combo dewormer, febental/albendazole/fenbendazole based dewormers etc that may be used for tapeworms. Many claim to have good results with them but they are not safe for pigeons. But in case of an emergency...I mean What else can one do? Gotta go with them...but I don't recommend them.
> 
> If you wanna keep the eggs then you're welcome. But parents will pass on the worms to their squabs so treat your birds after your hen lays eggs. That way while she be on eggs you may give her dewormer med with a gap of 12 days before eggs hatch


Dear Brocky,

Current position is; no sign of worms, droppings in very large size but consistency normal. Grain intake is almost doubled. I havnt treated them. Now the said hen has layed both eggs yesterday. 22 or 23 january is expected hatching date.

Another pair is already sitting on eggs. I hope eggs will hatch near 13 January or so. 

*Do you still suggest some anthelmentic?*

I have another question,
I offer my birds a mix of millet, wheat, black chickpeas, corn and safflower almost in equal proportions and always available to them in loft. They first finish safflower and leave behind wheat on the next day. _*Should I drop wheat from thier mix and double the amount of safflower?*_


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Mudsi_pharmacist said:


> Dear Brocky,
> 
> Current position is; no sign of worms, droppings in very large size but consistency normal. Grain intake is almost doubled.
> 
> ...


.............................................................


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Mudsi_pharmacist said:


> Dear Brocky,
> 
> Current position is; no sign of worms, droppings in very large size but consistency normal. Grain intake is almost doubled. I havnt treated them. Now the said hen has layed both eggs yesterday. 22 or 23 january is expected hatching date.
> 
> ...


Hi Mudsi,
Tape worms shed their segments/packets of eggs intermitendently. So they may not appear in birds droppings daily. Large droppings are because your birds are sitting eggs, they hold the droppings so that they donot poop in the nest and make it messy. But bad droppings indicate worms,the one you posted in pic. Increased appetite and Complete consumption is also an indicator of worms. If one worm came out of your birds then they are definitely having many of them and not only tape worms but they may be having many other types of worms also. I've seen pigeons having 300 to 500 worms. So PLEASE DEWORM them defore they hatch their eggs. If you donot deworm your pigeons now then it won't be safe to deworm the parents until their squabs are 3 weeks old. Its the right time to deworm them. Unless worms+stress of raising squabs will be too much for your birds to handle. In that scenario,canker,cocci,chlamydia etc which are ever present their body can take over their bodies. So deworm them with a BROAD SPECTRUM dewormer.


Pigeons need a balanced diet to stay healthy like we humans do. The best feed contains proper proportions of protein,fibre,fat,carbohydrates. So best is give them a balanced diet. For protein that should not exceed 12-18% percent, please add 15% cereals and legumes like kali daal,moong ki daal,chane ki dal etc to your bird's diet. For nutrition its also very important to add 15-18% oil bearing seeds to diet like kale til,rayi,sarson etc. Please do add 30 to 40% jayi(jon,jehre assi dushehre nu bijde ha). 10% bajra. 15 % jowar. And Sunflower seeds 5%,safflower 2-5%,yellow corn 5-12% could be added. As has been explained sunflower,safflower,yellow corn all are fatty and should be added carefully.

Give your birds that much seeds to eat that they eat in one go(remove the feed dish after 10 mins),twice a day in mornings and evenings to not let them become picky, for their own good.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In cold weather we give more corn to the mix, as it helps to keep them warm. It isn't that it is so high in fat. but it is a starch, and hence tends to put weight on the birds. So if you are trying to add some weight, a bit more corn can be good.


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Hi Mudsi,
> Tape worms shed their segments/packets of eggs intermitendently. So they may not appear in birds droppings daily. Large droppings are because your birds are sitting eggs, they hold the droppings so that they donot poop in the nest and make it messy. But bad droppings indicate worms,the one you posted in pic. Increased appetite and Complete consumption is also an indicator of worms. If one worm came out of your birds then they are definitely having many of them and not only tape worms but they may be having many other types of worms also. I've seen pigeons having 300 to 500 worms. So PLEASE DEWORM them defore they hatch their eggs. If you donot deworm your pigeons now then it won't be safe to deworm the parents until their squabs are 3 weeks old. Its the right time to deworm them. Unless worms+stress of raising squabs will be too much for your birds to handle. In that scenario,canker,cocci,chlamydia etc which are ever present their body can take over their bodies. So deworm them with a BROAD SPECTRUM dewormer.
> 
> 
> ...


Dear Brocky,

thank you for detailed guiadance. I will try to find some anthelmentic drug on some good vet medical stores as soon as possible. My preference would be Moxidectin>Prazivet>Ivermectin

I will today mix these seeds as recommended by u. 

I wonder, raising pigeons would have been very difficult without "PIGEON-TALK"


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> .............................................................


Dear Jay3,

Thank you for guiding new members like me even on silly questions.

I will deworm my pigeons as soon as possible, maybe tomorrow.
Surely I will improve thier feed as you and brocky has advised. 

I wonder, raising pigeons would have been very difficult without "PIGEON-TALK"


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> In cold weather we give more corn to the mix, as it helps to keep them warm. It isn't that it is so high in fat. but it is a starch, and hence tends to put weight on the birds. So if you are trying to add some weight, a bit more corn can be good.





> from Pigeonweb.net
> Corn based feeds are a double edged sword. A certain amount of corn is a good idea when feeding pigeons, especially during the colder months, simply because there are fats within the corn that help insulate the pigeons. However, this same fat content can create a hefty pigeon, which is unhealthy.
> Rather than opting for corn based diets, many experts recommend feeding pigeons a diet that is loaded with one of their all time favorites. A diet rich in dried field peas makes for a very happy, and healthy, pigeon.


Not only one but many sites support this. I agree to it from my exp.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Mudsi_pharmacist said:


> Dear Brocky,
> 
> thank you for detailed guiadance. I will try to find some anthelmentic drug on some good vet medical stores as soon as possible. My preference would be Moxidectin>Prazivet>Ivermectin
> 
> ...


Please try to find a broad spectrum dewormer that cover all types of worms. Look out for a dewormer that has combination of praziquantel+ivermectin+pyrantel pamoate. I'm positive that you will get it. Ask your medical practitioner to give the above combination.
Did you ever try to contact Dr. Ashraf Sahibzada over the telephone? He takes calls and provide free assistance. He may tell you about easily available dewormers in your country
g'luck


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

brocky bieber said:


> Not only one but many sites support this. I agree to it from my exp.


Yes, corn puts extra weight on them, which many people want in the colder regions. But it isn't because it is high in fat. Rather it is high in starch. You know, too many peas will make it too high protein. Too much isn't good either, and can cause health problems.


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

Dear brocky and Jay3:

I tried my level best and found only following anthelmintics in my area.

*Albendazole 400mg tablet* (roundworms,threadworms/pinworms and tapeworms)
*Levamisole 1.5% soln *(roundworms,threadworms/pinworms )
*Ivermectin 1% soln *(roundworms, threadworms/pinworms )
*Niclosamide 500mg *tablet (tapeworms only)
*pyrantal pamoate 50mg/ml *(roundworms only)

Now please suggest which brand/s should I use. I am totally confused


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

I have decided at my own to use Niclosamide tomorrow followed by Ivermectin at a gap of 1 or 2 days.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Albendazole is toxic to pigeons, so don't use that.
Why are you going to give the two drugs 2 days apart. That can be too much for a bird, as deworming meds are toxic. You could worm the bird with one, then again in 2 weeks. 

Then I would wait a while to use the other med. Like maybe a month. Really, the best thing to do would be to get rid of the eggs, replace them with fake eggs, get the birds taken care of, then let them hatch eggs. You shouldn't give a bird 2 toxic drugs so soon after each other, as you are just pumping poison into them. And they shouldn't be dewormed while feeding babies. So really, to do both the meds, it will take a while. I would care more about my birds, then getting babies from them.

First be sure that it is even safe for pigeons, and what the correct dosage is. Remember that these are poisons that you are putting into your bird. Pigeons have died from using the wrong drugs, or for using too much of them.


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

ok Jay3

i gonna replace eggs on your advice. I am very sad to hear this advice as it is third time something goes wrong with my birds when they lay eggs.


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## Mudsi_pharmacist (Nov 15, 2013)

I learnt hereby that birds should first be treated for worms and canker atleast before to start breeding.

brocky was alzo oc the same opinion that i should toss these eggz. 

but i am really disappointed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, I know you are disappointed, but wouldn't you rather have healthy birds that have been treated, so that they will have healthy babies? Also, if the parents aren't healthy, then breeding them and letting them raise little ones, will only put a lot more stress on birds that are already compromised. Breeding is hard on them and stressful as it is. Don't just take the eggs away though, or they will just lay right away again. That isn't good for them either. Next time you'll know to take care of all the other things first, then breed. But in the end it'll be worth it. You'll have nice healthy birds and babies.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hey there Mudsi!
In india and Pakistan,many experienced fanciers and vets themselves use Albendazole,fenbendazole based dewormers for their pigeons and doves. Albomar is their first choice because it kills almost all worms that a pigeon and dove could infest with and they have great results by dosing pigeons with 2 drops in the morning and one drop after midnoon, individually for three consecutive days. And it doesn't require repetition after a particular number of gap of days but to be used after 3 to 6 months depending on situation.
but all these above mentioned dewormers are toxic to pigeons/doves but give great results in other animals/birds. Truth to be told,I have used that dewormer on my pigeons with good results but I won't recommend anybody else to use this dewormer
If I were in your place I would deworm my birds with niclosamide and after 3-4 days I will give pyrantel pamoate by holding the feed. Then after 21 days I will give niclosamide again and give pyrantel pamoate 3-4 days after it again to break the life cycle of worms. Then after 21 days again I will give ivermectin again to rotate the medicines


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I have a pigeon that makes droppings that sometimes are dark brown and viscous, other times they are light green and wattery or emerald green. Could this be because of worms? She had PMV ~2 months ago and the neurologic symptoms are still present.

If yes, what dewormer would you reccomend?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Have you included pellets in his diet? Brown color can be because of it. If he is pooping dark brown sticky droppings regularly then this could indicate a candida overgrowth. If you can get bird's droppings examined then that will be best.

Well,its always advisable to deworm your birds once every six months. But why deworm a bird if he don't have worms!
Advise would be to get a fecal float done of your bird's droppings to know if your bird have worms or not. If he have then what type of worms and then use a specific dewormer for best results because dosages of different dewormers vary for different types of worms. But if that's not an option then a broad spectrum dewormer- Moxidectin Plus will be the best choice that kills all worms and is pigeon friendly. But don't deworm a bird if he has other serious issues going on...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you for answer!


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