# Males fighting - options?



## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Well, the worst case scenario has occurred and my two new Jacobins are both male. I didn't get the DNA test done, in fact I'm still waiting for it to arrive in the mail. I don't think I need a test now (but still willing to do it if needed). 

A couple of days ago the one I knew was male started displaying and cooing every so often. "Displaying" is similar to a bow-coo but without the circling, just staying in place facing the other bird, and uttering deep coos with feathers puffed out and tail spread, while flicking one wing tip up and down. The younger one would sometimes approach the male and peck him a few times before backing off and ignoring him. 

Then yesterday things escalated a lot. The male did his cooing displays almost constantly, and then the second one joined in. They spent hours facing each other, displaying and cooing, and only took breaks to jump on each other's backs and peck at each other. This wasn't mating behaviour, as they faced each other's rumps when attacking. I watched it carefully, the pecking was definitely aggressive and not preening or courtship, and they'd both make a low quacking sound while doing it. The younger one also tried to attack my hand when I changed their water bowl, which they had never done before. Finally I decided to separate them before one of them got hurt, plus the constant, growly cooing was getting on my nerves. 

So now they are still in the same cage, I built a barrier with plywood to split the cage. There's one part where they can still see each other and they're both displaying at it intermittently, but they are calmer today. Of course this is just a temporary arrangement, they can't stay this way forever. I posted an ad locally to either sell one of my males or trade him for a hen. It doesn't have to be a Jacobin hen. I just want the remaining male to have some company that he can get along with, and I have no plans to breed them. 

I'm concerned that I may not find a buyer for one of my males for a while, so I'm looking at options. Of course I will need a second cage or enclosure because the two can't stay the way they are for too long. I do have a spare rabbit cage, but I'm concerned it's too small. I'm thinking of building another cage to keep the second male in for now.

If I am able to get rid of one male, will I really need to get a hen or will the male who is left be OK and bond to me? I keep them indoors as pets. 

If I do need one (or two) hens, and can't find a Jac hen, would it be ok to bring in a homer or similar breed with a Jacobin, since the Jacs can't see as well with their ruff of feathers? Would a more "athletic" breed pick on a Jacobin? Does a homer type breed make a good house pet or do they do better in lofts where they can fly outdoors? I'm asking about homers mainly because they are the easiest (and least expensive) to come by.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't think I would look for a homer necessarily. Maybe another fancy, like a Capuchine, satinette, or old german owl, or something like that.
He would be much happier with a mate than without.
When you do get one, don't put her into his cage. They need to get used to each other from separate cages that are beside each other.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> I don't think I would look for a homer necessarily. Maybe another fancy, like a Capuchine, satinette, or old german owl, or something like that.
> He would be much happier with a mate than without.
> When you do get one, don't put her into his cage. They need to get used to each other from separate cages that are beside each other.


The reason I mentioned homers is because they are available where I am, and I can get one relatively quickly. Fancies? Not so much. I've never seen a Capuchine or Satinette available around here, period. I have seen German owls in the past, but not now. I've seen a couple of fantails, but they are flightless and apparently that's not a good idea for a house pet either. It could take months before any of these breeds are available to me. Also, they tend to be expensive, like $100+, and if I'm going to have to buy or build another cage, I won't be able to afford both. I live in the city, and most lofts except for the homers/racers are all in rural areas. That's why it's rare to find fancier breeds here. I basically got my Jacs as a fluke, I'd never seen them around here before.

So what's wrong with a homer? There are some other breeds available around here that are similar in shape, like tipplers, rollers etc. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to know why they wouldn't be compatible? Would the flying breeds (for lack of a better word) pick on the Jacobin? 

One breed I can get right now for an affordable price is a Pomeranian Pouter, I know they're big but not much else about them. Would a Pouter get along with a Jacobin?

I'd like to get at least one hen as soon as possible, as I'm sure it's stressful and upsetting for both males to be on their own for the first time. The two of them were displaying at each other through the barrier all afternoon, and I finally got out a medium dog crate, put a shelf in it and set it up for one of them. It's not great for size but it will do for now. I moved the medium crate to the bedroom, so they are now in separate rooms, and they've stopped the displaying for now. I was worried they might stop eating while in a frenzy of displaying at each other. Sure enough, as soon as they were in separate rooms they both started eating a lot, then both lay down on the bottom of their crates and went to sleep. 

Thanks for the tip about the second cage. I would have quarantined the hen anyway and probably dewormed and sprayed her for mites/lice before exposing her to the male, but a second temporary cage shouldn't be a problem. I'm always building cages, then using the parts to make another if I don't need it anymore. How far apart should the cages be?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Rollers are nice birds. I like them. Homers are okay, but a bit more aggressive in general. 

When you introduce 2 birds, the cages can be side by side, as long as they can see and not touch each other.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Rollers are nice birds. I like them. Homers are okay, but a bit more aggressive in general.
> 
> When you introduce 2 birds, the cages can be side by side, as long as they can see and not touch each other.


Great! I almost bought rollers before I found the Jacobins. I think someone locally is selling an Oriental roller hen, I'll check and see. 

Are show homers less aggressive? There's a local guy selling German Beauty Homers. I tried some research but there's nothing about their temperament.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't know. They're probably okay, but not as cute as a little roller. I do like the disposition of the little rollers.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Don't know. They're probably okay, but not as cute as a little roller. I do like the disposition of the little rollers.


I've written to a roller breeder but haven't heard back. I spoke with a Magpie breeder as well, after doing a lot of research on the breed. I found that they make very good pets, they're sweet and devoted. The breeder says they're pretty mellow as well, so I'm getting a yellow hen from him. I will wait and see if I get any buyers for my spare male Jac before deciding on a second hen. So far I haven't had any takers for the Jac, so I'm prepared to keep him if I don't find a buyer. I'm already sourcing cheap large dog crates just in case.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think the magpies are kind of odd looking. Long legs and necks. Another breeder said they were rather shy birds.I hope your male like her and she likes him. Just take your time in introducing them. Wait till they both seem interested in one another.
Keep us posted.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> I think the magpies are kind of odd looking. Long legs and necks. Another breeder said they were rather shy birds.I hope your male like her and she likes him. Just take your time in introducing them. Wait till they both seem interested in one another.
> Keep us posted.


Thanks! I've already set up a cage for her. Here she is, the one in the middle.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Make sure if it isn't a female that you can bring it back.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Make sure if it isn't a female that you can bring it back.


Thanks, I'll mention that to him. He told me that the three birds in the pic are a male, a female, and a juvenile. I don't know if they are parents and offspring, but of course I'll ask.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well if he is separating a pair of birds to sell them off, that isn't good. That's mean as they mate for life. She will probably take a while to get interested in your male if that be the case. I know people who race and breed birds do that, but I wouldn't want to do that.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Well if he is separating a pair of birds to sell them off, that isn't good. That's mean as they mate for life. She will probably take a while to get interested in your male if that be the case. I know people who race and breed birds do that, but I wouldn't want to do that.


After a long ordeal, I finally ended up with a pigeon - but not the one I went there to pick up.

I had to get up at the crack of dawn to make the 1.5 hour transit journey to the guy's apartment building. When I got there, he didn't answer when I texted him and I couldn't find his name on the door panel. So after 20 minutes I left. I was about a third of the way home when he called me to say his phone's data connection was down. I was able to turn around and go back to his place. 

He brought the female magpie down to the lobby, then I asked if she had been breeding with the male in his ad, he confirmed they were a bonded pair and the third bird was their offspring. I told him I didn't want to split two paired birds since they mate for life. I was actually prepared to take the male bird as well, then he told me he had a white unpaired hen upstairs. I asked him the breed and he said "Turkish, Turkish" (his English wasn't good). So I asked him to bring her down so I could have a look. She's a lovely bird with small and compact build, reminded me of a roller, so I decided to take her. 

I told him why I want the bird, as a pet and not to breed. He asked me about the male bird and I told him I bought the two Jacs hoping they'd mature to be male and female but both turned out to be male. I mentioned that I'm selling the "extra" male and he told me he might know someone who'd be interested to buy him. I told him where to find my ad. 

She seemed calm all the way home, peering through the screen in the pet carrier bag, looked very intelligent. As soon as I got home, I set her up in my big dog crate. I built a two part barrier to split it in half, bottom part is plywood and the top part is a translucent plastic tub lid. The Jacobin male I plan to keep is in the other side. They can see each other (the plastic is a bit foggy, not perfectly clear like glass), but not get at each other. If they don't want to see each other they can go to the bottom part of the cage with the plywood. Later I will switch the plastic for a metal mesh barrier I made, when it's time for them to start contact. The two parts are easily slid out for when I have to clean the cage.

So as soon as I got home, the first thing I did after getting the new girl settled was to look up Turkish pigeon breeds. I'm pretty sure she's a Turkish Tumbler, also known as a Turkish Takla. Taklas come in several regional variations, the most common variety has feathered legs and feet, others have partially feathered feet/legs and the rarest kind has bare feet and legs. Mine is one of the partially feathered feet kinds, her legs are feathered but her toes are bare. She is not pure white, she has a few tiny blue feathers here and there on her head and breast. I still have to finish looking up all of the varieties to figure out what she is, assuming she's not a hybrid. 

They are bred strictly for performance, and each regional variety performs differently. Mixing the varieties is frowned upon because it dilutes the regional performance characteristics. Colour is a secondary consideration, though certain regions prize specific colours over others, even though it has no bearing no performance. Temperament varies among regions as well. I find all of this quite fascinating, as you can probably tell. 

Anyway - here she is! I haven't thought of a name for her yet, although "Eve" might be a good one considering what day it is today.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She is adorable, and Eve would be a great name. Turkish tumbler probably Very pretty. Hope he's right about the gender.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Lovely bird, agree with Jay 3, hope he is right about the gender. Hope you have fake eggs on hand.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Yup, she's a Turkish Tumbler! But she's not exactly the same as the most common variety with their full feathering on the feet. So out of curiosity I will see if I can figure out which city/locality she comes from. That's assuming she's not a hybrid with another tumbler/roller breed. Here's a page I found with some interesting info on the Turkish Tumbler: http://mumtazticloft.com/TurkishTumblers.asp

Re the gender, yes she seems a bit thick around the neck area, but then again the birds in other pics I've looked at so far look like this. I'm still waiting for the DNA kit I ordered last week, when I receive it I will use it on her just to be sure. 

Re plastic eggs, I have them on order, along with wormX and a topical spray for mites and lice. I haven't seen any on her, but I've seen lice on one of the Jacs. I won't be putting her with the male until they've had time to get to know each other through the barrier. She does seem to like resting on the shelf right next to the plastic barrier. I don't know if he has noticed her yet. 

She's certainly a lot more active than the Jacs. She's curious about the world outside of her cage, and has been flapping her wings a few times. Luckily she has plenty of space, since she's so small!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The only wormX I can find is for dogs.
Can they see each other okay through the plastic barrier?


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> The only wormX I can find is for dogs.
> Can they see each other okay through the plastic barrier?


Here's what I have, it's probably the same product but formulated for birds including pigeons: http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/AB10272.html

So far this is the best site I've found that ships to Canada. They have a pretty good selection of other products like medications etc. I've used them to get products for my other birds as well. 

This is the spray I ordered: 
http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/AB10284.html

The plastic barrier isn't crystal clear, but it's pretty translucent. I can see through it pretty well, and I think they can. At this moment she's lying down right against the barrier, and he's lying on the other side a few inches away. Earlier she spent quite a bit of time preening herself and rubbing her tail up against the barrier. I couldn't see his reaction, but he certainly hasn't been behaving the way he did when he was with the other male!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oxfendazole is in the same drug family as fenbendazole which is toxic in many pigeons. I wouldn't use that. Besides, it is better to have something to treat individually with, rather than in the drinking water, as you can't be sure of how much they consume. I had bought a wormer once, then when it got here, turned out to contain Fenbendazole, so I could't use it. I know they are sold for birds and sometimes even for pigeons, but they can be toxic to pigeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sounds like this one might be a female. I would hold off on the DNA, and save the cost of it, and wait and see how it goes with them. See how they react to one another. You may not need the test.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Sounds like this one might be a female. I would hold off on the DNA, and save the cost of it, and wait and see how it goes with them. See how they react to one another. You may not need the test.


A few minutes ago I saw both of them preening at the same time, close to the sides of the barrier. She stomps her little feet as she's doing it, almost like she wants his attention. Now they're lying down, head to head. I think they like each other!

Re the worms. I gave the two males Ivermectin solution a week ago, in their water as instructed by the manufacturer. I found poop with worms in it the next day, so it killed at least some of the worms. I'm aware that Ivermectin doesn't kill tapeworms. That's why I bought the other preparation. My research about the Oxfendazole indicates it's not as toxic as the fenbendazole, and it's used in many dewormers for all species of birds. However, I could hold off until I see symptoms of worm infestation. I will still use the external product because I have seen feather lice on both of the Jacs. I'm not sure if pigeon feather lice can spread to other species of birds, but that's another reason I'd like to treat the pigeons for them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some of the wormers for other species are bad for pigeons. Tapeworm is not as common. If you wormed them and got worms, then you will need to worm again 2 weeks later to get the eggs which have hatched since then. You always need to do it a couple of weeks apart. Some then do it at 3 weeks also.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Some of the wormers for other species are bad for pigeons. Tapeworm is not as common. If you wormed them and got worms, then you will need to worm again 2 weeks later to get the eggs which have hatched since then. You always need to do it a couple of weeks apart. Some then do it at 3 weeks also.


I found a couple of stools that had two or three worms in them, each. I know the signs of tapeworm because when I was growing up we had outdoor cats who used to get them from the prey they killed. I was always the one to tell my parents that they needed to go to the vet for Droncit again. 

If the Ivermectin is sufficient I will just use it and give them another dose in a week's time (it's been a week since the last dose), and send the WormX back. I did some more reading last night and today about the Oxfendazole, including a couple of veterinary studies done on pigeons. It seems wormers of that class have the same effect as chemotherapy - they kill all rapidly developing cells in the body. That's why they do feather damage during the molt, and why birds it's used on sometimes vomit. In every study, some birds died after a couple of days of dosing, and the autopsies showed damage to the bone marrow and lining of the gut. Which makes me wonder why this chemical is still being marketed for birds, especially pigeons. I was surprised at the number of pigeon dewormer products available that contain Oxfendazole.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Even vets sometimes prescribe it. It isn't as toxic to other birds and they don't know enough about pigeons.


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