# Help, PMV pigeon keeps on wanting to throw up



## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

I have started a new thread because I need some very specific advice.
Of my two pmv pigeons, the male is doing well and I think he will pull through, the female is another story. 
I need to give you a little background about what is happening with her:

At 7am yesterday I gave her 10mls of purred peas, wheat germ and a little liver (liver=protein+B vitamins). I also gave her the Enrotril and Baycox half way through her feeding. After finishing her syringe she threw the last bit up.

At 3:30pm I have her another 5ml of puree and she kept it down. I do have to holder her for a few minutes on my lap and stroke her head a little and as soon as I see she wants to throw up I just tell her to not throw up and this seems to work.

At about 8:30pm I gave her 2ml of puree and the Enrotril. Again she starts gagging and wanting to throw up. I hold her for a few minutes,stroke and talk to her and she manages to keep it down.

This morning at 6am I uncover her cage and she immediately starts throwing up everything she had yesterday. I looked at the vomit and it was quite dry,so she is absorbing the liquid which is good. This means that she didn't digest anything of what I gave her yesterday, it just stayed in her crop. I'm quite distressed about this because she needs her nutrition.

Anyways, this morning I decided to give her 2-3mls of very watery liver puree and the Enrotril. She still was gagging and wanting to throw it up but I went through my routine of holding her for a while and talking and she did manage to keep it down.

She is drinking lots of water which is good.

What I have decided now is too give her 2-3mls of watery double strained food every 2-3 hours. (the mix I mentioned before)
I
Does this sound like a good plan? Should I be doing things differently. Any feedback I can get would be great.
One of the problems I have is that I'm not good at telling whether their crops are full or not, I feel their the crop area but the truth is that I'm in the dark, I can't really tell. Her crop was full all day yesterday and I couldn't tell. I'm glad she through it all up this morning, it must of been making her ill having all that undigested stuff in her crop.

Any feedback is great.
Thanks


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Slow crop/sour crop is always a risk with a very ill bird, and it's important to get the crop to empty. 

What is often the culprit is a yeast infection in the crop. Add a bit of apple cider vinegar to her water -- preferably the kind with the "mother" in it, like Bragg's, if you can get it. About a tbsp per gallon works well. Also, give her a few cc's of warmed applesauce, preferably unsweetened, and massage the crop. This will help with getting the crop to empty, as both of these help change the PH balance of the crop contents. 

Aside from the applesauce, do not give any more food until you are certain the crop has emptied all the way. 

Do you have access to Nystatin? It's an antifungal that is great for yeast infections in the crop. 

If you don't have access to it, perhaps Bella can send you some -- I think she has some on hand.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

What is the difficulty you are having with telling if the crop is empty or not? Can you explain what you are feeling/not feeling? That's a pretty common thing if one isn't used to poking around crops all too often ... and perhaps I/someone else can help tell you what to feel for....

PMV birds tend to drink a ton of water, and they also tend to pass a lot of it in their droppings -- often pure liquid.... It's good that she's drinking. 

Gentle massage of the crop, regularly, and also supportive heat will help the crop contents to pass. Even if it is warm there (I know it is summer in Australia) it is still good to give supportive heat -- PMV birds need it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Mini, So glad you're here. We both could use advice from you about helping pigeons eat when they have PMV

Whitetail, `Nilstat' is the product to get for Yeast. You get it at any chemist, and give 0.5ml. It is a yellow liquid and doesn't cost much.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

minimonkey said:


> Slow crop/sour crop is always a risk with a very ill bird, and it's important to get the crop to empty.


Mini, I have heard from the government publication here that the vomiting is regarded as a symptom of the PMV illness- I'm not entirely sure if its due to sour crop, or the virus causing it? 

If the virus is causing the vomiting, any way to stop it, say with a anti nausea med?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

With PMV, it depends on the presentation in any particular bird. Some birds are able to eat on their own even while very ill, but many are not. 

Slow crop is common because the water is absorbed and excreted by the kidneys in such volume and so quickly that the digestive system contents can get dried up, as Whitetail is describing. Also, the neurological problems sometimes show up as difficulty with swallowing and difficulty with digestive motility. 

Can you get something like NutriCal, or baby bird formula easily? The more nutrition that can be given in a liquid state, the better, once the crop starts emptying again. 

I'd stay away from wheat germ, or anything else that gets gummy at all if dehydrated....


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella -- just saw your post -- I think it is mostly a problem with digestive motility -- or lack thereof. 

Pepto Bismol is helpful if the problem is true nausea -- don't know if you can get that or not (it's OTC here) -- but I think the nausea is usually secondary to a slow crop. 

The strain of PMV you guys are getting is different than what we have here, so there's some guesswork involved all around ... but PMV hits the immune system hard and opens the door to all kinds of opportunistic infections, including yeast.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Thanks Mini! 

Unfortunately the Pepto Bismol is banned substance here in Australia. 

The only bird forumula I know of personally sold here is the Vetafarm one:

http://www.vetafarm.com.au/products/CRITTACARE-AVIAN.html

You used to be able to buy directly form them, but they no longer sell to the public, so not sure who does it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

minimonkey said:


> Slow crop is common because the water is absorbed and excreted by the kidneys in such volume and so quickly that the digestive system contents can get dried up, as Whitetail is describing. Also, the neurological problems sometimes show up as difficulty with swallowing and difficulty with digestive motility.


Thanks a lot for that explanation, Mini. 

So is medicating with Nilstat (and other meds?) pretty much the only hope to stop the continual vomiting?


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks Bella and Minimonkey,

Just got back from buying some more syringes and saw all your responses, thank you!!!

I rung the vet and they told me it's really important that I get the medication down and to leave some seed to see if she eats any but I tried that and she takes a few in but that's all.
When I got back I gave her the Baycox and nothing else, the vet assistant suggested this. I held her for about 10 minutes and thought she'd be OK but when I put her in her cage she started gagging. 
I'm going to try the apples sauce and the apple cider vinegar.
I'll get some Nilstat as well.
Bella, 0.5 ml how often, twice a day?
About the cider vinegar, how much per litre?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The nilstat dose is 0.3 ml twice a day.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

About 10 ml vinegar to a litre of water. It's approximate, but that's about right.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pepto Bismol works great for vomiting. Just a couple of drops, abt. 30 minutes before medicating or feeding. The active drug is Bismuth subsalicylate, and you can get it there. Look for it in a suspension.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I recall reading that Pepto Bismol was banned in some places -- for the life of me, I can't imagine why. 

Reglan (Metoclopramide) is sometimes used to help with a slow crop and vomiting -- can you get that?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't need both the ACV and the applesauce. Applesauce would be gentler on the bird, and if it is applesauce for babies, it would also have some vitamins in it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

whitetail said:


> T
> I'll get some Nilstat as well.
> Bella, 0.5 ml how often, twice a day?
> About the cider vinegar, how much per litre?


Hi Whitetail,

The dose of Nilstat is a little flexible as its not absorbed by the body . It kills yeast up on contact as it passes through the digestive system. Don't be alarmed if the droppings get a little yellow, its the Nilstat making them that colour.

Dr Colin Walker, the Pigeon Vet from Melbourne (Auspigeonco) recommended 0.5ml Nilstat twice per day to our member Kamz, so I recommend his dose to others, since he's a pigeon Vet. I was taught by a very experienced member here, Dobato, to use around 0.2 ml twice per day. I believe anything within that range of 0.2ml -0.5ml is ok.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That's my understanding of Nilstat/Nystatin as well.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Actually...I can tell you exactly what the niltat dose is...0.0001 per each gram.LOL


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

whitetail said:


> I rung the vet and they told me it's really important that I get the medication down and to leave some seed to see if she eats any but I tried that and she takes a few in but that's all.
> When I got back I gave her the Baycox and nothing else, the vet assistant suggested this. I held her for about 10 minutes and thought she'd be OK but when I put her in her cage she started gagging.


Hi Whitetail,

I was just wondering, did the Vet say your pigeon has Coccidia ? Baycox is for a parasite we call `coccidia', though its not usually associated with sour crop/vomiting. So Baycox won't be treating those particular issues, just so you know.

I use a different product for coccidia called `coccivet' (Amprolium) but I just wanted to mention that with Baycox, it is recommended never to use it with Vitamin B supplements, as they prevent the medicine from working. So I'm not so sure how much vitamin B is in the liver you're giving, but it might be worth stopping that.

I wonder also, did the Vet mention canker at all? Its a little surprising that the Vet gave you Coccidia meds but nothing for canker, but i assume they did some tests ?


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks Charis for the Nilstat dose, just bought so I'm happy.

Thanks Mini for the ACV dose as well. I will try some baby apple sauce this afternoon with her medications. I hope she starts pulling through; she doesn't look well at all and I'm panicking that she's had nothing to eat.

Thanks Jay for giving me the name of the active drug in Pepto Bismol, I'm off to the chemist once more to see if they have it.

Wont it be too much the Pepto Bismol and her other medications all together??


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi Bella, I think I missed out on your last couple messages, sorry, just read them now.
Thanks for the info on the Nilstat.

The vet did a crop test and found a few indications of Coccidia in the male but this was before the pmv results came in, it wasn't a sure thing about the Coccidia. The female had the same symptoms as the male so I asume she had some Coccidia and pmv as well. I couldn't take the female to the vet as they were booked out but they gave me extra Enrotril and Baycox to treat her the same as the male.

The vomiting started after I started feeding and giving her the medications. The day before she was sick she was fine and I remember her doing a really good poop, I was watching her as her partner was sick; the day after she was really unwell with very watery poops.

I'm not going to give her liver anymore, just some apple sauce tonight with the Entrotril and the Nilstat. I'm thinking of stopping the Baycox, maybe she doesn't need it and it's making things worse?

I so hope she doesn't throw up tonight when I give her the apple sauce and meds, it's so disheartening when she does.

Thanks all for your support.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Whitetail,

Thanks heaps for the extra information  I haven't used Baycox myself (we can't get small bottles of it here, only the cattle sized ones for hundreds of dollars) . Its said to be safe & effective , but it can react badly with certain things like B vitamins, and acidic water. I'm not sure if its one of those medicines that can make very sick birds regurgitate, but its certainly possible.

I'm getting the sense from what you described of her recent good droppings, that she probably doesn't have a bad case of coccidia. Also, with sour crop its doubtful that she's getting much of the medicine into her. So you could put off this coccidia treatment IMO, if she's not getting much down. It might help.

One more thing to check might be to feel her breast area-does she feel very thin, with the keel bone very sharp? Also do you have any way to weight her?


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi Bella,
Good point about her having a good poo just one day before, I didn't even think about that. I think I'm going to stop the Baycox and stick to the Enrotril and Nilstat. I'm going to give her some apple sauce with her meds now and I'll try and weigh her as well.

How long should I give her apple sauce for and what do I feed her after that? I was thinking of giving her only green pea puree with a syringe for a few days but don't know what else, I'm lost without the liver and wheat germ, it always worked so well before.

Well, I'm going to go and feed her, I hope she can keep it down, I find that all the throwing up is making her worse as well. She's all fluffed up and doesn't move a lot, I'm a bit afraid she might not make it through the night.

Anyways, Ill be checking in tomorrow and will let you all know what happens.
I'm so grateful for all the help that this forum gives pigeon amateurs like me, I'm learning fast though.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Didn't want to wait for the morning, things don't look good and just wanted to write in.

I fed her the 3ml of apple sauce but I didn't give her the meds, she looks like she's had enough and I didn't want to cause her more distress. I sat with her on my lap for quite a while stroking her and when I did put her back in her cage she didn't throw up but I don't think she will make it through the night, she is incredibly weak, when I set her down in the cage, she fell forward, this shocked me. I also weighed her and she's only 260 grs. I felt her breast bone and it's sticking out.

She must have other health issues, she's never been a huge eater, not like some of the others I have but she always had such healthy poos, solid and brown, I can't believe she's in such a bad state. Her name is Tia and she's very sweet and I feel very sad that I may be loosing her.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Didn't want to wait for the morning, things don't look good and just wanted to write in.

I fed her the 3ml of apple sauce but I didn't give her the meds, she looks like she's had enough and I didn't want to cause her more distress. I sat with her on my lap for quite a while stroking her and when I did put her back in her cage she didn't throw up but I don't think she will make it through the night, she is incredibly weak, when I set her down in the cage, she fell forward, this shocked me. I also weighed her and she's only 260 grs. I felt her breast bone and it's sticking out.

She must have other health issues, she's never been a huge eater, not like some of the others I have but she always had such healthy poos, solid and brown, I can't believe she's in such a bad state. Her name is Tia and she's very sweet and I feel very sad that I may be loosing her.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hugs whitetail, I'm so sorry she's looking in a bad way  I know how much it hurts.

If Tia makes it through to the morning, or even if you have a little more time now, what you might try is hourly feeds, with smaller amounts if you have the time?. The pea puree would be ok, I would think. 

What I'm not sure of is the calorie information of your formula , is the puree diluted or kept thick? A very sick bird with signs of emaciation needs around 40 calories per day. I've always wanted to know how many peas that is exactly, and I just read that 1/2 cup of peas is 59 calories. So roughly 1/3 of a cup of peas is what an emaciated pigeon would need to eat per day.
I hope that helps as a guide? Just in my opinion, right now getting Tia food and her keeping it down somehow is more important than medicine.

I hope that helps a little...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The pureed peas is a great idea, and you could mix a bit of the applesauce in with it, just to help with the crop emptying. The Baycox I would have stopped as well. If you wanted to mix something in with the peas, try baby rice cereal (one that doesn't contain milk). Mix it with water, and then add some pureed peas and applesauce to this. The rice cereal is easy to digest. Don't over feed, as that will make her more likely to vomit. Then wait for a few hours to give the crop time to empty, before feeding again. Would be good if you could get the bismuth subsalicylate. That you would give a couple of drops about 20 to 30 minutes before feeding and meds.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

I'm so sad, my little one didn't make it through the night, I feel like in some way I've contributed to this, she deteriorated so much yesterday, maybe if I hadn't given her the meds she might have eaten and pulled through.

Her partner in the next cage doesn't seem to be too affected, I was worried about how he may react. With him, how many days should I give him the Nilstat? 

I tried getting the Bismuth Subsalicylate and the pharmacist told me they didn't make it anymore because there was better stuff around but he didn't want to recommend anything for a bird.

I would love some advice on basics that I should have at hand or do when something like pmv comes around. Enrotril seems to be a good broad spectrum antibiotic to have to treat the secondary infections. Nilstat or any anti fungal seems to be an essential as well. 
What about some baby bird formula or some buddgie crumble to mix in with the pureed peas?

Also, what about some disinfectant that you can use as a one off if they come with a cut in their toes or something like that?

I have just noticed that a young one I took in, she's about 6 weeks, still peeps, is drinking more water and her poops seems more watery. She did eat but not as enthusiastically as usual; with pmv at this age can they make it through?

Sorry I have so many questions, I'm feeling so overwhelmed at the moment.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry she didn't make it. I know how hard you tried. Sometimes that happens, and the more you help them, the more you will learn. As far as small scrapes and cuts, you can wash them out and apply Neosporin or another antibiotic cream. If you have baby bird formula, that would be great. Keep the peas on hand also. Baytril or Enrofloxacyn, or something similar. A good canker med, such as Metronidazole. And it's a good idea to have a heating pad that doesn't turn off automatically, as most of them do these days.

What makes you think this young one has PMV?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear about Tia, Whitetail  The vomiting is regarded as a common symptom of this strain of PMV, so it may only be coincidence that her PMV symptoms became apparent around the same time you began to treat her. The captivity itself could have triggered it, being a stressor for some birds.

I would think there's a slight chance that the Baycox reacts adversely with sour crop , since it doesn't like acidic environments. I definitely don't know for sure , having never used it, but I would probably stop using it for coccidia while you have the PMV outbreak there, just as a precaution. You can use a product called`` Coccivet'' (amprolium) which is easy to get, and more widely used for coccidia.

Not sure if you missed my post earlier, but Pepto Bismol is a banned substance in Australia. We can't get Neosporin either, that's an American product. In fact we can't get any antibiotic creams at all in Australia without prescription  I've used betadine for wounds, and it seems ok...I put it in a spray bottle and spray on the wound.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you can't get any antibiotic creams in Australia, what do people put on their cuts? Nothing?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

whitetail said:


> I would love some advice on basics that I should have at hand or do when something like pmv comes around. Enrotril seems to be a good broad spectrum antibiotic to have to treat the secondary infections. Nilstat or any anti fungal seems to be an essential as well.
> What about some baby bird formula or some buddgie crumble to mix in with the pureed peas?


Like Jay mentioned, the main item missing from your medicine at the moment is a canker medicine. With sour crop, often we suspect canker as a possible cause it frequently accompanies other illnesses. The avian Vet that I see sells a canker medicine called `Turbosole' (ronidazole) in a white jar with a red label. This seems to be only canker medicine that we can get without prescription or vet consultation that I've found here in Australia. 

If you vet doesn't have this or can't order it in, there are other options such buying fishzole (metronidazole) from ebay or Jedd's pigeon supplies in America.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your little one  I hope Bella can advise you on where to get supplies -- I don't have much of an idea what you have available. 

I use saline to wash wounds, and also make a very dilute solution with amoxicillin dissolved in purified water for treating wounds(I get the fish-mox) -- I actually prefer that to ointments. I learned that trick from Phil years ago, and it works very well. 

Vetericyn is a great product for wound care -- can you get that? Colloidal silver is also a good thing to have on hand.

Ebay has a lot of medications available, and Jedd's is great (but a bit pricey).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with cleaning with saline, but keeping it covered with an ointment keeps it moist and protected. Maybe there is some sort of thing like that, that is available, to cover a wound with after treating with your dissolved medication in water. Often helps in healing.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Minimonkey, do you know if Betadine is potentially problematic? I've read some posts here from some of the older and experience members from the UK using it on pox blisters, probably because of its anti-viral properties as well as anti bacterial.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> If you can't get any antibiotic creams in Australia, what do people put on their cuts? Nothing?


EDIT: Here in Australia if someone gets a paper cut, we usually have to amputate the limb, lol 

Anyway seriously, Betadine is the main thing we put on wounds. It kills staph infections, viruses, bacteria everything.

You can get ointments with disinfectant in them like detol. My Grandma used hydrogen peroxide which hurt like anything!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The Betadine works good and causes no problem, where as hydrogen peroxide does damage tissue, so isn't a good choice.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, I definitely don't recommend using the hydrogen peroxide 

I'm using Betadine at the moment for a pigeon with its ankle bone exposed for about an inch right around the ankle, and infected flesh above and below. He seems to be healing up very nicely without any issues so far.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Betadine is povidone iodine --- it's generally fine, unless it might leak into a body cavity and be absorbed in any real quantity. 

I like the vetericyn wound gel for keeping wounds moist, though I do also use the antibiotic ointments at times. I just don't like the greasy factor with them. I also have a colloidal silver ointment (Silvasorb) that I like for keeping wounds moist and clean.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> If you can't get any antibiotic creams in Australia, what do people put on their cuts? Nothing?


probably an antiSEPTIC cream, which helps seal and protect the wound from infection, unlike an antibiotic cream which should only be used IF there IS an infection (like any antibiotic)


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi Everyone and thank you for all your support; it's been so good to share my love of pigeons with all of you!! I have only a couple of friends who are interested in my pigeons, the rest think I'm mad.

Anyways, I have been taking notes and writing down all these names that I'm sure will soon become familiar to me.
I think that the saline solution sounds great and it's easy. The Betadine sounds great as well.
Bella will be of great help as she'll be able to tell me how to get all this here in Australia and the corresponding names as well.

In one of my replies I said that I have a 6-7 week old that I think may have come down with pmv. I thought this as her poos seemed very watery and she didn't seem as keen on her food as she usually is; I hope I'm wrong, I'm feeling overwhelmed and having another sick one is awful but I do have a cage ready for her if she needs it, I do feel maybe a little better prepared this time around after my experience with Tia.

Another question, for how many day does one give the anti fungal Nilstat?

Thanks so much again


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> probably an antiSEPTIC cream, which helps seal and protect the wound from infection, unlike an antibiotic cream which should only be used IF there IS an infection (like any antibiotic)



Thanks Quazar. Okay, I use those too.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Whitetail -- almost everyone thinks I'm mad, too ... it doesn't bother me much. 

I generally give the antifungal for the whole course of antibiotics, and then follow with a probiotic after that. 

I'm sorry to hear about your youngster  I hope it isn't PMV. I'd start the supportive care as early as possible, as soon as you see any symptoms .. the more support they have, the better. I agree about skipping the Baycox, and just going for good food, supportive heat, and an antibiotic if it seems warranted. 

I know Bella uses the sulfa drugs a lot, which seems to make sense given that coccidiosis is a big problem in Australia. It might be a better antibiotic choice, since it will treat coccidiosis as well as other infections.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks Minimonkey for the info; I'm monitoring the little one closely, as soon as I see she is fluffing up and not well I'll take her in and start the care. She's a pale red, I think they call them recessive reds, she's very cute, I've never had a red one before.

Yes, it does seem that the Amprolium, what Bella uses, is better. 

Thank again to all


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