# Bred For Stock



## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

What is up with bred for stock birds?
Is there something that I do not know?
I mean like some people buy birds for some big bucks and they bred some kids out of them but they do NOT fly the kids and instead they save it for stock..


Bred for stock birds really piss me off. 
I don't know if they think that the parents are click pairs and that every kids will be as good;

But can someone tell me what I am missing here.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I only have bred late breds for stock once in 24 years....And the 4 birds I bred late from my best two pairs,are my best breeding birds...Some of the best flying lofts in the USA breed late breds for Sale...The early YB`s are raced,and the late breds are sold to flyers in need for new bloodlines for their stock loft..The LATE breds are usally from the lofts BEST breeders,and the percentage is high for success in breeding from these late youngsters the next year....Alamo


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I would assume that since they did not want to risk losing them to racing, they bred them for stock for breeding purposes. I am guilty of that. Since I do not race with a club, and will be racing one loft races only, I bred youngster's for me to breed back to their parents. I donated a bunch of babies this year, but managed to keep 4 birds for stock purposes. They are only allowed to loft fly. I do not take them out for basket training.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

What???
If it MAY be lost in flight,
then in their eyes it IS? suitable for accepting its progeny's???


And from a website, I am sure everyone know but I will not mention names, 
their birds for sale are NOT young birds, they are yearlings and they are mentioned as bred for stock, and there are TONs of them, not just on or two. 


I still do not get it. 
Bred for stock birds really pokes my buttons....
I mean, for guys keeping hundreds of birds and they never will a single race, whats up with that?
I think it is because they keep birds for stock instead of breeding from stuff that is already air testes?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

The only time I would take into the "bred for stock" phrase is when a direct kid off a super breeder is too old and an inbred direct kid is raised as a late hatxh.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I have a few pairs that I know will breed me good racers aswell as breeders so when I get birds that are too late to get ready for young bird season I'll keep those young birds as breeders for the next year. Why throw them away trying to train them when the hawks are around knocking off birds left and right and taking a chance at losing a champ to a hawk when you can get 8 young birds out of them the next year. I have a hen that has raised me 3 winners and her daughter who was bred for stock last year has raised me 5 birds that have been been in the top 5% this year already why wouldn't I keep their babies to try to breed out of them instead of letting a hawk kill it or chase it away this year when they are never gonna get in a race this year anyway.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Untested stockers give me shivers. But you are the only one that knows your birds. So your call!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

fresnobirdman said:


> What is up with bred for stock birds?
> Is there something that I do not know?
> I mean like some people buy birds for some big bucks and they bred some kids out of them but they do NOT fly the kids and instead they save it for stock..
> 
> ...



In some cases, Champion racers are purchased out of Europe, brought to the USA, and then their offspring are sold as future breeders. Often the pedigree will have such things as "Super" written on it.......and these are then sold for $2000-$8500. Birds sold as this are "Bred For Stock". 

Why would go this route ? Because it is often cheaper then buying the winning race bird. But, you have to start some where, and buying YB's out of proven race birds, is the next best thing to buying the proven race bird. The best way, IMHO, is to buy the "proven" breeder...but the real "proven" breeder is really quite rare, and so they are rarely let go. But, some people claim they get these "Super" proven breeders free all the time, but I just can't seem to get on that list !  And there are really so few fanciers with really super proven breeders to start with....

And thus, you have these lottery tickets...we call "Bred For Stock" maybe one out of 20-25 will prove themselves to be a "proven" breeder....where as you might find 1 out of 10 proven racers can turn out to be proven breeders.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

If you are referring to me about breeding for stock, like I said, I am only going to enter 1 loft races. I didn't enter any this year, so like I said, I donated a number of youngster's to members on this forum. The 4 I kept for myself are going to be used for breeding. I am sorry that since they have not been race tested, it pushes your buttons, but that is what I have decided to do. To each his own, and that is the way it is.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> If you are referring to me about breeding for stock, like I said, I am only going to enter 1 loft races. I didn't enter any this year, so like I said, I donated a number of youngster's to members on this forum. The 4 I kept for myself are going to be used for breeding. I am sorry that since they have not been race tested, it pushes your buttons, but that is what I have decided to do. To each his own, and that is the way it is.


 I don't know who you were addressing this to....I was addressing it to the person who started the thread....most if not all commercial breeders in the United States sell offspring which have been bred for stock. It doesn't push any of my buttons at all, since one of my most successful breeders was a "Bred For Stock" type of bird. And just a FYI, just because a bird has been "Race Tested", or even if it has won many racers, does not insure that it will be turn out to be a proven breeder. It would be nice if it was all that easy, if that was the case, then all one would have to do, is purchase a bunch of race winners, and then you could produce winner after winner, but it does not work that way. Two of my star producers which have producers winners year after year, never raced a day in their lives. They came from star racers, but they themselves did not. As they were "bred for stock", and were among the many lottery tickets that I purchased. These two turned out to be good producers. 

So no bbcdon, I was not refferring to you, if you thought I was....there are a lot of breeders in the USA that "Breed For Stock".


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I think Don is referring to fresno's comment after his post. 

I agree 100% with what you've stated Warren and I think that it's good information to pass down to others. Through experience there's wisdom and finding the right combination/formula takes some doing most of the time. I say most of the time because there's always that chance you may stumble across an unlikely pair that will take you from being an average flyer to competing with the big boys.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Sorry Warren, my post was directed to fresno.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

The father of conditionfreaks best bird so far this year was bred for stock. The birds I am training out now were bred for stock. Althow these birds will fly out to 200 miles they will not be entered into races. Some of these birds are from stock that I have prduced winners by crossing so I want to put more of these crosses into my breeding loft. 

The only way to know what any bird or pair will produce is to breed them and fly the young.

One of my best racers / breeders came from two bred for stock birds.

Ace


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

bbcdon;


I was not directing the statement to you but to fanciers as a whole.

Blind breeding is just something that I just dont like...I guess.

SOOO... for those that keeps hundreds and hundreds of birds that are NOT winners are they expecting for a good one to come from those UNworthy ones? 
Not saying it cannot happen at all, but the chances are very slim...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

fresnobirdman said:


> bbcdon;
> 
> 
> I was not directing the statement to you but to fanciers as a whole.
> ...


Most people do not keep hundreds of breeders. Perhaps just Dealers. And using JUST winners in the breeding loft Well your loft would not be breeding just winners. A consistant bird Is often the better breeder. A bird with a win here a win there Is not the bird to pick. AND a young bird winner Does not mean it will win as a old bird until it is tested. To really select a breeder bird The bird should have flown for at least 3 years. BUT that does not allways happen . ANY bird put in a breeding loft will be judged by how it produced So it bred for stock or found on the streets Can be judged in the breeding loft by how its young fly. Rule should be in 3 years it a bird has not produced birds as good as it is it should be removed If a bird has produced birds better then it is it should be removed. WITH the exception of that rare prepotent bird The one that if you bred it to a rock it still would produce a decent bird. BUT they are rare and they are often missed If the owner does not see there worth. BUT YES bred for stock is becoming a sells pitch on some auction sites . When maybe it should be bred to sale and make money. Because that is what some do. And we have to remember. Only a small number of birds raised each year in every loft will be the best 1 out of 100 best 5 out of 100 keepers and 20 out of 100 useable for your self or others. Solest say 70 to 80 were birds that could never help you go forward And those birds to keep the sport strong Should not go to other race people. Just those 15 20 should BUT who sticks with that rule Just a few people Many offer the birds for sale. RACE pigeons like any breed Have a few great pigeon keepers and alot of ok pigeon keepers and a few that have bought great birds and sale a few good birds and alot of birds that brings the hobby down.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RE LEE...Your correct...I purchased a Red Cock as a YB,that was bred for stock,from a very well known pigeon breeded in the USA..After 4 years,I let the cock out and it flew away...It never bred anything good..I paid $500 for him !! That`s the first time I ever saw $500 fly !!
It couldn`t even find his way back to my loft,even after being in the location for 2 years....It flew around for 1/2 a day,and then I never saw it again...Goodbye and good riddens....Alamo


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Nothing wrong with breeding for stock. 

How many of you have children better than you? Bigger, better, faster...smarter? You got the chance to breed...didn't you? How many of you are "better" than your parents? If they never got the chance to breed, there wouldn't be a "better" you. If you never got the chance to breed, there wouldn't be a better kid than you.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Xueoo said:


> Nothing wrong with breeding for stock.
> 
> How many of you have children better than you? Bigger, better, faster...smarter? You got the chance to breed...didn't you? How many of you are "better" than your parents? If they never got the chance to breed, there wouldn't be a "better" you. If you never got the chance to breed, there wouldn't be a better kid than you.


Now if we raised humans It would be a whole different world. a loft full of people But it would take 20 years per pair to decide which ones to get rid of. But pigeons can be judged very well by 3 years. So bred for stock can be an asset But should have a reason behind the motive. Such as building a family line , ect. We cultivate pigeons to mans idea.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

re lee.totally agree with you about keeping 1 out of 100 birds.

But I have seem many many clips of interviews on youtube where they keep hundreds of birds and breed off of them. 
don't now what they are thinking....


From what I have comprehended; the term bred for stock;
Is used to define a cull that they want to sell online...
Because their race records are bad and they are from good racers, they don't want to tell anyone about how they did and they then label them as bred for stock.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Xueoo said:


> Nothing wrong with breeding for stock.
> 
> How many of you have children better than you? Bigger, better, faster...smarter? You got the chance to breed...didn't you? How many of you are "better" than your parents? If they never got the chance to breed, there wouldn't be a "better" you. If you never got the chance to breed, there wouldn't be a better kid than you.




That is where you are wrong Mister.
Many individuals think that their offspring are BETTER than they are. 
That is NOT TRUE, and pretty ignorant.
They are NOT bigger than you, bigger, better, faster, smarter than you are,
In some rare cases they are but the mass majority of offsprings are about the same.

Many families are NOT from Caucasian descent and they think that their kids are smarter because in the new world the kids thrive to do their best. Which impress the parents and makes them think that the kids are smarter. The parents never tried to do the same because they gave up before they had the chance. 

There are Many Many super smart scholars that come to the United States at the age of 18-19 some times even 25, which is well past the age of puberty, in which sociologist believes anyone past the age of puberty will have a hard time learning foreign matters. But they still come and learn, get their M.D. PH. D. but thier kids are NOT smarter than they are, the kids had it easy, and still their achievements are nothing compared to the parents. Would you consider that BETTER than the parents?


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Besides;
splicing genes are not as you would think.

Breeding a Smart boy and and Fast running Girl does NOT give you a prodigy on the track and the IQ field. 
Somethings you will get a offspring that is smart, not fast.
or a fast one, but not smart. 
Or you will get something way back in the genes that has nothing to do with the parents.

Even breeding 2 every fast runners may not give you a fast baby. 

If you were right, then this world would be corrupted and in war every single moment of the day. 

If every kid was smarter and smarter as the generation progresses then,
just then, this earth would not exist anymore because of masterminds and extremist. 

think about it.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

re lee said:


> Now if we raised humans It would be a whole different world. a loft full of people But it would take 20 years per pair to decide which ones to get rid of. But pigeons can be judged very well by 3 years. So bred for stock can be an asset But should have a reason behind the motive. Such as building a family line , ect. We cultivate pigeons to mans idea.


It's the same concept, whether you are breeding humans or animals. Very few human athlete have sons or daughters that are on par with or better than they are. Most athlete's come from relative average parents. Or, even below average. The reason we like to breed from the good racers is we can have a better guess what they will likely produce, based on their performances, not their breeding ability. So, whether they are selected from the basket or the pedigree, they have not proven themselves to reproduce. 

Also, "bred for stock" does not mean the family hasn't been tested. In fact, it's likely the opposite, because you only breed for stock to try to build up or preserve good stock, which could have been all world champion birds two generations preceeding (grandparents).


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

fresnobirdman said:


> That is where you are wrong Mister.
> Many individuals think that their offspring are BETTER than they are.
> That is NOT TRUE, and pretty ignorant.
> They are NOT bigger than you, bigger, better, faster, smarter than you are,
> ...


You are talking about advantages and disadvantages. Of course if you take one couple from a poor third world country with little food to eat every day, move them to a wealthy country, and one couple from a wealthy country, you will see the difference between the kids of the parents from the third world couple. Their kids will have all the advantages they didn't. And they, in turn, will also have a opportunity to achieve their potentials in a better country. 

This has noting to do with "bred for stock". In fact, it even proves "bred for stock" is not bad, as they proved they are better than their environment, that they have bred good all these hundreds of years given the disadvantages they've had. They've been breeding for stock all these years just to prove that they can become MD's and PHD's if given the opportunity.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Fresno, you've gone full circle here. First you state you hate people who breed unproven birds and call them "bred for stock" and that they should only breed "air tested" proven birds if they want to label them "bred for stock". Now in your human genetics example you posted...


fresnobirdman said:


> Even breeding 2 every fast runners may not give you a fast baby.


So which is it? What direction should we take here or are you just ranting...

I think it boils down to whatever you feel will give you the edge as an individual flyer. Whatever works for one person might not work for the rest of the world and you can't blame that individual from being different.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

fresnobirdman said:


> Besides;
> splicing genes are not as you would think.
> 
> Breeding a Smart boy and and Fast running Girl does NOT give you a prodigy on the track and the IQ field.
> ...


I don't know where you got this from, but that's not my thinking.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would say getting bred for stock birds is a flip of the coin. I have GFL and CBS birds some raise winners some raise very good breeders and some couldn't find thier way home from accross the street. I have never herd of GFL or CBS selling any of there winning race birds all the birds they sell are bred for stock. 
Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Xueoo said:


> It's the same concept, whether you are breeding humans or animals. Very few human athlete have sons or daughters that are on par with or better than they are. Most athlete's come from relative average parents. Or, even below average. The reason we like to breed from the good racers is we can have a better guess what they will likely produce, based on their performances, not their breeding ability. So, whether they are selected from the basket or the pedigree, they have not proven themselves to reproduce.
> 
> Also, "bred for stock" does not mean the family hasn't been tested. In fact, it's likely the opposite, because you only breed for stock to try to build up or preserve good stock, which could have been all world champion birds two generations preceeding (grandparents).


I was making a joke about the human breeding. As we have no selected input to that line. Yes Many do breed for stock. BUT they often do not go on a auction site to sell that bird along with the others listed saying bred for stock. And as you know your best pair of birds will not raise all useable birds each year. They may raise 1 or 2 And may not raise any in certion years. So stocking young birds for breeding can only be proven through the breeding And then testing there young. A pedigree started out as a loft record for the person To better be able to select there birds for breeding and future breeding. But has grown into a sale pitch for birds that fail the breeders program. Nothing will change that Just as bought birds for breeding that have great pedigrees then bred them and find they do not bring anything to help your loft. But they have a great pedigree. Now often the may have a young offspring that may very well be a bird to breed from. And race records means the bird in hand could race well. But does not mean the bird can raise race winners But is a good place to start. Nothing wrong with breeding for stock But if saleing then how did it breed


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

OK,
I don't think you guys understand me, 
I am saying that even though 2 very good racer cannot make a good racer all of the time;
and people want to breed out from 2 unknown racer?(bred for stock)

XUEOO.
If you were to move the kids from the wealthy place back to the poverty area;
does that prove that the kids are BETTER????
Now that the kids have to suffer from a 3rd rank country matter?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I am breeding for stock right now. In Sept/Oct. Why? because I only have a few birds to start with and need to get a few grown up enough to breed next seasons YB team. My prisoners are providing birds to race and to use as mates for the YB that were gifted to us by our club members. Do I expect anything fantabulous from these birds? Based on pedigree I should, but if pedigrees were really worth anything then I would be illiterate right now. Sure a "trait" may pass down, but most of the time it seems to be luck. 

Just my 2¢


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

If you don't like the term bred fror stock then don't buy birds thats are bred for stock it's your choice. But there's no reason that a guy who had a pair that clicks shouldn't raise late hatch birds out of their top pair to try to get more of that blood in their loft. The one thing I would say is to stay away from birds that are for sale that are bred for stock if they are over a year old. That would tell me they tired them out and they didn't give them what they wanted and are just culling them by selling them. But like I have the past few years I've bought birds from local auctions that were bred for stock but they were late hatches that were less then a year old so the guy didn't have a chance to test them out. And if you know what to look for you can get a good bird. I have bought 7 birds that were bred for stock the past 2 years and I've had 3 of them breed me diploma winners already. I've also bought 3 birds that were proven racers and 2 of the 3 raised me diploma winners one being my 2 time winner from this past OB season. The other one only laided one egg then became egg bound. So the qualities I look for in the birds at the auctions must be pretty good since 50% of the birds I've bought to breed out of have bred me birds that have clocked close to if not on top of the sheet. But like I said stay away from an older bird bred for stock if theirs a 4 year old bird that is outstanding and isn't over priced I'd give it a shot you never know if the bird just didn't fit the way the other guy handled them and they could fit perfect with you. Just like ppl say so and so sold them crappy birds maybe they weren't maybe they just don't fit in with your style.


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## fishcharmer (Nov 15, 2008)

I thinkl the fresnoman is being thick headed...Hundreds of birds are scoring each week out of pigeons that were "BRED FOR STOCK" and this includes the money races, big money races! In my opinion "bred for stock" means exactly what it sounds like...a pigeon bred strictly for stock purpose, period! to breed from, not very confusing to me....i sell a few Houbens and raised them for that purpose, to be used as a stock pigeons. again, to breed from. In your minds world, you may be right about your percentage of success from your proven "STOCK BIRDS" ha ha ha... which they become once your finnished racing them. Anyway, have fun! anybody interested in Houbens can give me a call at 360-903-3532 I purposely breed and sell for stock!!


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Fishcarmer,
If hundreds winners were bred out of unflown birds like you said then what is the point of flying birds like all racing fanciers do?
Why not just breed the hell out of every unflown bird and send them all to money race?


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> Fishcarmer,
> If hundreds winners were bred out of unflown birds like you said then what is the point of flying birds like all racing fanciers do?
> Why not just breed the hell out of every unflown bird and send them all to money race?


 well to be honest thats the only way you will ever know if they are of any good as flyers ..if you dont breed the hell out of them you wont know what you got bred for stock or not! the only thing that comes to mind for me when I would hear the words bred for stock is in the price one would be charging for said birds as if they arent proven I wouldnt be putting out the big bucks to find out what they would be throwing out in the race field but thats just my 2 cents


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## fishcharmer (Nov 15, 2008)

Ok fresnoman. We all know the point your trying to make. You must have a loft full of winners. Does 25th place constitute a winning pigeon? Myself, If that bird was out of a winning line, i might stock that bird and breed from it. Yes, it's a breeder, but it also falls into the stock bird category. Or, i might breed from aces, and stock those birds. The thing to remember here is that sum of us believe its possible to raise winners from unflown birds, or, you guessed it.... "stock birds"


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think we can play statistics and breed unproven birds and hope it turns out good. But if you know statistics, the majority is average. The very good ones and the worst ones are on the opposite sides and on smaller scale on a bell curve. If you know population genetics, and if you want to improve the breed, breed only those that fit what you want. Breeding known or proven birds increases your chances more of getting good birds than breeding blindly. Nevertheless breeding unproven birds doesn't mean that you might not get good ones. I think it is all economy. If you can't cull, you can not breed blindly. Or for that matter if you have a small loft you have to be very selective.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Okay,guys I am not trying to spark any controversy with any of you guys;
I am still young and I don't reject ANY information from other fanciers except for the ones that I know for sure is wrong.

But to fishcharmer;
I want to answer you,
for a 25th place bird it depends how many birds it was racing against.
If it was racing against 100 birds then I would cull it,
but if it was racing against 1000 birds then I would stock it.

Also, there is a major significance difference between stock bird and a bred for stock bird.
But then it is just my definition.
Everyone has their personal preferences and since I do not have 1 square mile of land I will Not keep any bred for stock bird. I am a die hard Killer!lol. 

Also; you seen to be the one to answer my post.
""""The thing to remember here is that sum of us believe its possible to raise winners from unflown birds""""-Fishcharmer


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

fresnobirdman said:


> Everyone has their personal preferences and since I do not have 1 square mile of land I will Not keep any bred for stock bird. I am a die hard Killer!lol.


So say you get really lucky and get a pair that raised you 5 winners in only a few years and all 5 of those bred you really good birds. You wouldn't keep that pair together for a round of late hatches and take a chance with them as a breeder. You'd just seaperate them and let them sit there while you can get an extra set of young that have the potential to breed you future champs. Or if you had a chance to get a bird off sombody for a really reasonable price that has bred multiple winners you'd say no I'll never put that bird in my coop because it was bred for stock. I can see not buying birds off sombody that says they were bred for stock if they haven't proven themself as a worthy breeder as of yet but to make a blanket statement that you will not keep a bird bred for stock sounds pretty dumb to me.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

fresnobirdman said:


> Okay,guys I am not trying to spark any controversy with any of you guys;
> I am still young and I don't reject ANY information from other fanciers except for the ones that I know for sure is wrong.
> 
> But to fishcharmer;
> ...


Breeders are 1 part of the whole. And a breeding loft does not have to have many many pairs. Concept should be get the best you can start small 2 3 pair and move forward breeding and adding selective on the program. Just as a young bird team and an old bird team. It should take 3 years to build the first old bird team and add and remove as you build your flying birds. And young birds No way should you need to keep every bird that comes home from the training tosses. Just the top birds. This makes for better birds going to the races a easyer training as the selected team is small enough to handle condition and manage Plus loft is not crowded. Pulling certion birds off the team and holding for breeding stock is smart from time to time. IT takes years to cultivate a loft that you can compte with and manage year to year. People buy often each year young birds to race and test. They are not proven until raced buy the new owners. And sometimes they just are not any better then what the person raised. Its a gamble. Winners well the brother or sistyer off that winner may be the much better breeder. and grand children off that winner are sometimes the better breeder. Quality in the bird times the method of training makes for a winner. Good birds should be raced for at least 3 years befor they are selected for breeders BUT that rule changes when people just race young birds. So say the bird is a 4 year old befor it goes into the breeding loft If it is selected. By then it has proved its race worth as youg , yearling and seasoned old bird. Then familys bred for distances and the 300 mile races. It is rather time consuming building a loft of birds. Sure lot of money buy buy buy. And you save time. THEN you still have to put the birds together rigt. ain them right and select them right to maintain and move forward Or you wasted your money and ruined your birds. Bred for stock from Known breeders Will help Bred for stock for just a sales price run fast. As that is a sucker bet to get your money. But remember A bird you know little about may be the diamond that you looked for. Because many a person has picked up a bird that struck there eye And bred from it and found it was a great breeder. So it is like that bred for stock And often it may be that free or 5 dollar bird that happened along and luck proved to be on your side. So you might look at what you have and set your method and goals cull wisely train towrds your birds responding and enjoy the many years pigeon keeping can be part of what you do.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> So say you get really lucky and get a pair that raised you 5 winners in only a few years and all 5 of those bred you really good birds. You wouldn't keep that pair together for a round of late hatches and take a chance with them as a breeder. You'd just seaperate them and let them sit there while you can get an extra set of young that have the potential to breed you future champs. Or if you had a chance to get a bird off sombody for a really reasonable price that has bred multiple winners you'd say no I'll never put that bird in my coop because it was bred for stock. I can see not buying birds off sombody that says they were bred for stock if they haven't proven themself as a worthy breeder as of yet but to make a blanket statement that you will not keep a bird bred for stock sounds pretty dumb to me.



It may be dumb but breeding blindly is dumber.
As a matter of face I already stopped breeding since June.
My breeders are just sitting in the loft dumbly.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Well I can see you not breeding now since you've just got into homers. So you really wouldn't have any birds that are proven to fit in with how you do things. So for you to be breeding now wouldn't make any sense anyway. But I have pairs that raise me winners pretty much every year. And I know the family of birds fit me so I keep the top pairs together till the start of young birds to get a few extra breeders out of them. As I see it the originals don't live forever and you've gotta find replacements for them or you'll just be stuck at the begining again trying to make a whole new family from scratch. And you'll probly say breed out of the good flyers out of them but meny times the good flyer isn't the good breeder. Once you actually race and breed for a while you'll realize it isn't as easy as breeding a winner to a winner to get winners.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Once you actually race and breed for a while you'll realize it isn't as easy as breeding a winner to a winner to get winners.----pigeono446.

So what you are saying is you breed losers to losers to make winners is easier?
I got into homers 3 years ago.
ALL my birds are flown out, not a single one is blindly being bred. I do not have a square mile like most of you guys to bred thousands of junk birds to sell off as bred for stock.

As for my year this year out of all my birds I will only breed one pair next year.
And use the rest as fosters.

Since you have winners every year I don't hear you as the talk of the Pigeon Game.
Validity is an issue for you...
Don't have anything to prove what you say.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

And I know the family of birds fit me so I keep the top pairs together till the start of young birds to get a few extra breeders out of them.---pigeono446

So what you are saying here is that you bred the UNFLOWN birds and do whoknowswhat to those that are actually flown...
I don't know but that is dumb. 
I rather breed off those are are actually proven from flying.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think what pigeon0446 is trying to say is that he has good population of racing homers that he may be confident in breeding them unflown. As I said before you, the handler, knows your birds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

There are two sides to this story....the truth of the matter is...there are valid points on both sides. Just for the sake of clarification and to give a valid example. I own a hen bird, which would have been sold orginally by Mike Ganus for $6000 and that was as an "unproven YB". 

Why such a price for an "unprioven" YB ? Cause the sire was 1st National Ace, all of Holland. In which he won four times in a single season....1st Place.... againest 25,000 to 40,000 birds. The dam was also the daughter of this famous sire, so a Father x Daughter mating, but she also produced the 1st Place Winner to the Snow Bird Classic, a well known One Loft Race. So, from a pedigree perspective, could be something made in heaven.

But, I didn't purchase the bird at this point, I waited until this hen produced $15000 in One Loft Winners, and then I purchased the bird. The bird produced a 1st place winner in the Flamingo International Challenge the first year I owned her. At this point, I would say the hen is a "Proven" breeder, but the 1st person who owned her, bought her at a "cheap" $6000 price, cause she was an "unproven" and "unraced" bird. Course, how many of you reading this, would pay $6000 for a hen, and then send her on training tosses and then race her ?

Bottom line, and my point is, she never saw the inside of a training basket, a day in her life. But, boy was she a super "Bred for Stock" !! Now, the problem comes into play, when you end up with a bunch of "Bred for Stock" birds in a pedigree, and the winning race results appear to be missing in the mix. As a general rule, I would agree with the posters who have reservations about "Bred for Stock" birds, as they carry, IMHO an extra burden to prove that the winning genes are really there. The challenge is, that there have been many examples in which a "good" pair of birds have produced two birds in a round....where one was the star racer...which turned out to be a very so so breeder....and the other nest mate who was a very so so racer, turned out to be the star breeder. 

My point ? Is that it is very hard, if impossible, to come up with an absolute set of rules, that will insure that the fancier will be sucessful if only they do X, Y, and Z. Truth be told, many of my major sucesses, were really the result of chance, and dumb luck. Pairs that mated up by chance, birds which normally would have been disposed of because they were hatched to late to make the race team, and ended up becoming a stock bird by accident. Too many of these types of examples to say with any degree of certainty, that I really have figured it out. In fact, the more I learn, the more I have decided....that I don't really know nothing at all !!!!


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft;
I like the way you think.
Very knowledgeable in this racing game!


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

fresnobirdman said:


> So what you are saying is you breed losers to losers to make winners is easier?


I never said anything was easy but yes 2 losers can breed winners if they have the blood of winners in their background. And I don't mean way back in their family tree but their parents. If the parents have wins or maybe haven't won but were consistently close to the top of the race sheet or have bred winners. I'll give them a chance at breeding even if they were losers when it comes to racing. You never know why the bird wasn't a good racer there's way too many variables.




fresnobirdman said:


> I got into homers 3 years ago.
> ALL my birds are flown out, not a single one is blindly being bred. I do not have a square mile like most of you guys to bred thousands of junk birds to sell off as bred for stock.



You might have gotten into homers 3 years ago but as late as May of 09 you were asking in a thread if you had to join a club to race so I take it that means you haven't raced them for more then a year if ever. So if you breed birds and just trained them out to even 300 miles it doesn't make them any more of a proven bird then my late hatch bred for stock out of proven pairs. The only way to have a proven breeder is to breed them and see what they give you. A proven race bird on the other hand will have to be raced and actually clock good multiple times not just be a one hit wonder and win one race and never be clocked good again. Just by training the bird out the bird is not proven. I have my one bird number 25 she's alway well not always but 95% of the time she's my first bird in the clock on my training tosses. She's been in 7 races and she's only been my first bird in the clock once and that was when she was my fourth bird home but the other 3 flew for a lil bit b4 they clocked and she landed pretty much as soon as she got home she wound up 5th in that race. If I went by tosses she'd be a champ but not from race results. From the race results I'd call her a chump. But most ppl might be happy with her race results she's been in the top 10% 4 times out of the 7 races. 




fresnobirdman said:


> I do not have a square mile like most of you guys to bred thousands of junk birds to sell off as bred for stock.


Have you ever seen me trying to sell a bird I've never sold a bird to anybody I've had ppl ask to buy birds from me but I wouldn't sell them as I feel it's hard to get good stuff and to many ppl take the quick buck and lose that special bird. I'm not selling off anything until I feel like I have a really good base of birds in my loft. So I can easily replace what I sell. I plan on racing for atleast another 50 years and I'm not selling off my racing future for 500 bucks. Like I was offered for one of my birds when I was 16. I have to say it was tempting at 16 years old but I'm glad I didn't sell him he's bred me winners and a few of his grand kids have been winners. If I sold him I would never of have any of them.

Maybe thats what most birds that sold as bred for stock are "Junk" bred by a guy breeding hundreds of birds just to sell. But like I said I'd stay away from birds that are about 3 years old that the guy is selling saying they were bred for stock if they were they should have some breeding stats that goes with that lable if they don't the bird was a dud and they are just trying to dump it on sombody else while getting money for it.




fresnobirdman said:


> And I know the family of birds fit me so I keep the top pairs together till the start of young birds to get a few extra breeders out of them.---pigeono446
> 
> So what you are saying here is that you bred the UNFLOWN birds and do whoknowswhat to those that are actually flown...
> I don't know but that is dumb.
> I rather breed off those are are actually proven from flying.


No I breed out of the flyers as well after they are about 5 years old when I retire them from the race team. But if I have a bird like my bird from last OB season that won 2 races I'll throw them in the breeding coop when they are a lil younger. Because there is no sense in taking a chance of losing the bird to a hawk to race them in another OB season when you can get 6 to 8 young birds out of them next season. Even more if you switch the eggs to pumper pairs.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

fresnobirdman said:


> Since you have winners every year I don't hear you as the talk of the Pigeon Game.
> Validity is an issue for you...
> Don't have anything to prove what you say.


There's alot of ppl who win races every year. But you never hear about most of them becasue they aren't out try to make money by selling birds. I only took over the computer work at the club this year after I was eleceted president so I only have this years races and the last few races from last seasons yb's on my computer.

Here's some of the races from the end of the 09 yb's and 10 ob's. These are club results I don't have the combine results on the computer. But I'll submit a couple of my birds into the Racing Pigeon Digest for the Ace Awards and the IF for the Hall of Fame since I have birds that qualify for both of those awards this yb season already in both the club and combine. 

My Loft is Walter Cichon


WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 08/06/02-00:03
Weekly Race Report Page 1
Open and Sportsman Category
Name: 4-150SPECIAL Young Bird Race Flown: 09/20/2009
Release(B): 07:30 Birds: 326 Lofts: 20 Station: HAMLIN, PA
Weather (Rel) clear, calm (Arr) clear, sw

POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT
1 Garden Lof/19 2065 IF 09 LIN BC C 11:20:11 173.923 00.00 1329.826 38
2 Garden Loft 2006 IF 09 LIN SLT C 11:20:17 2/ 19 00.05 1329.249 37
3 Walter Cic/14 3 IF 09 LIN BCS C 11:07:20 164.056 00.12 1328.520 36
4 Walter Cichon 57 IF 09 LIN BB H 11:07:22 2/ 14 00.14 1328.317 35
5 Walter Cichon 37 IF 09 LIN RC H 11:07:25 3/ 14 00.17 1328.011 34

Look at the speed of this race over 77mph

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 05/13/10-19:49 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 250 SPECIAL Old Bird Race Flown: 05/08/2010 Release(B): 10:15 Birds: 130 Lofts: 8 Station: FT LITTLEA 522&475 Weather (Rel) overcast, sw (Arr) overcast, sw POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 Walter Cic/13 5050 IF 08 LBRA BB H 13:28:53 250.563 00.00 2274.396 26
2 LARKIN/12 9390 IF 09 ITF BC C 13:36:51 260.272 00.26 2269.402 25 
3 WALTER&JER/29 24408 AU 08 ARPU BBSP H 13:27:29 245.509 02.30 2244.847 24 

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 06/19/10-13:59 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 9-250 SPECIAL Old Bird Race Flown: 06/19/2010 Release(B): 06:30 Birds: 104 Lofts: 7 Station: FT LITTLETON,PA Weather (Rel) clear/calm, sw (Arr) clear/calm, sw POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 Walter Cich/9 5050 IF 08 LBRA BB H 11:50:59 250.563 00.00 1373.830 45 
2 WALTER&JER/30 5363 IF 09 LBR BC H 11:52:06 245.509 07.34 1341.488 44 
3 LARKIN/9 5327 IF 09 LBR BB C 12:11:35 260.272 08.09 1341.045 43 

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 05/13/10-19:49 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 250 CLUB Old Bird Race Flown: 05/02/2010 Release(A): 07:00 Birds: 100 Lofts: 7 Station: FT LITTLEA 522&475 Weather (Rel) overcast, sw (Arr) overcast, sw POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 LARKIN/14 873 IF 07 VIOL DCWF C 12:00:54 260.272 00.00 1522.362 5 
2 Misztal/25 5164 IF 09 LBR BB H 11:55:36 245.774 11.29 1463.203 4 
3 Arts Loft/11 2017 IF 08 LIN DC C 12:08:01 249.469 19.36 1425.458 3 
4 Walter Cich/7 1105 IF 05 LIN VEL H 12:10:05 250.563 20.25 1422.098 2


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

This seasons yb results. Maybe not the best results this season but I'm leading average speed by around 10 mins after the first 7 races so far so I'd say I'm doing alright. We used to have about 15 more shippers but one guy was killing ppl the past 4 years and ppl went to another club thinking so they wouldn't have to fly against him. I'm pretty sure he won the IF champion loft this past OB season and is gonna have a few IF Hall of Fame birds from OB's as well. You can see him in the last race below where I'm 9th he got me with 5 birds.

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 08/30/10-15:18 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 100 MILE Young Bird Race Flown: 08/29/2010 Release(A): 08:00 Birds: 251 Lofts: 16 Station: ALLENTOWN WEST,PA Weather (Rel) , calm w (Arr) , calm w , calm w POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 E&B&K/20 2002 IF 10 LBRA BC H 10:21:14 122.450 00.00 1525.932 13 
2 WALTER&JER/20 823 IF 10 NSBR BC C 10:25:49 121.983 05.07 1472.323 12 
3 WALTER&JERRY 1167 IF 10 MH BBS H 10:25:56 2/ 20 05.14 1471.146 11 
4 MARZEC LO/19 1174 IF 10 LIN BB C 10:26:30 122.391 05.20 1470.362 10 
5 MARZEC LOU 2700 AU 10 HAM BB C 10:26:30 2/ 19 05.20 1470.362 9 

26 Walter Cic/10 21 IF 10 LIN BCS H 10:36:38 126.626 10.36 1422.565 0 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 09/04/10-12:45 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 100 MILE Young Bird Race Flown: 09/04/2010 Release(B): 08:30 Birds: 255 Lofts: 15 Station: ALLENTOWN WEST,PA Weather (Rel) , w (Arr) , w , w POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 E&B&K/20 707 IF 10 LIN DCSP H 10:19:32 122.450 00.00 1967.824 48 
2 Misztal/20 1445 IF 10 LIN BC C 10:20:07 122.073 00.57 1950.840 47 
3 MARTY CICH/20 2617 AU 10 EVV BBS H 10:26:15 127.531 02.11 1930.785 46 
4 WALTER&JER/20 1167 IF 10 MH BBS H 10:21:13 121.983 02.07 1930.167 45 

39 Walter Cic/20 13 IF 10 LBR BC H 10:32:42 126.626 09.28 1815.914 10 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 09/12/10-16:55 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 3-150C Young Bird Race Flown: 09/11/2010 Release(A): 08:00 Birds: 314 Lofts: 18 Station: HAMLIN, PA Weather (Rel) , clear (Arr) , clear, clear POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 LARKIN/20 1008 IF 10 LIN DC H 11:44:37 173.756 00.00 1361.447 45 
2 MARIO BROT/20 726 IF 10 NHF BLS H 11:29:38 159.768 03.06 1341.262 44 
3 Walter Cic/11 74 IF 10 LIN BC H 11:35:29 164.056 03.24 1339.885 43 

14 Walter Cichon 49 IF 10 LIN BBS H 11:40:30 2/ 11 08.25 1309.461 32 
16 Walter Cichon 57 IF 10 LIN BBS C 11:40:52 3/ 11 08.47 1307.248 30 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 09/20/10-19:27 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 4-150S Young Bird Race Flown: 09/19/2010 Release(B): 07:30 Birds: 261 Lofts: 16 Station: HAMLIN, PA Weather (Rel) , calm sw (Arr) , calm sw, calm sw POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 JERRY LOFT/20 2159 IF 10 WTCM BBSP H 10:40:20 159.351 00.00 1473.390 129 
2 LARKIN/20 545 IF 10 LBR BB C 10:58:07 173.756 00.34 1469.372 126 
3 GRAYWOOD L/13 1907 IF 10 LIN BC H 10:48:40 164.150 02.35 1454.214 124 
4 LARKIN 1028 IF 10 LIN BCSP H 11:00:19 2/ 20 02.45 1454.048 121 
5 Walter Cic/20 74 IF 10 LIN BC H 10:49:02 164.056 03.05 1450.557 119 

21 Walter Cichon 17 IF 10 LBR BC H 10:51:35 2/ 20 05.38 1432.138 78 

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WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 09/25/10-13:27 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 5-200C Young Bird Race Flown: 09/25/2010 Release(A): 08:00 Birds: 277 Lofts: 17 Station: CARLISLE, PA EXIT 16 Weather (Rel) , calm w (Arr) , calm w , calm w POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 MARIO BROT/17 414 IF 10 LIN BB H 11:23:20 202.588 00.00 1753.507 44 
2 LARKIN/20 1008 IF 10 LIN DC H 11:38:30 216.814 00.53 1746.370 43 
3 Arts Loft/10 662 IF 10 LIN BC C 11:28:50 205.980 02.04 1736.084 42 
4 JERRY LOFT/19 2152 IF 10 WTCM BCSP H 11:25:45 202.255 02.46 1729.881 41 
5 Walter Cic/19 23 IF 10 LIN BB H 11:30:45 207.104 02.53 1729.507 40 

12 Walter Cichon 17 IF 10 LBR BC H 11:42:11 2/ 19 14.18 1640.547 33 
13 Walter Cichon 980 IF 10 ITFA RED C 11:42:11 3/ 19 14.18 1640.547 32 
31 Walter Cichon 2 IF 10 LIN BCS C 11:54:30 4/ 19 26.37 1554.359 14 
32 Walter Cichon 25 IF 10 LIN BLKC H 11:54:45 5/ 19 26.52 1552.703 13 

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WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 10/02/10-20:22 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 6-200S Young Bird Race Flown: 10/02/2010 Release(B): 07:30 Birds: 229 Lofts: 14 Station: CARLISLE,PA EAST Weather (Rel) , calm n/w (Arr) , calm n/w, calm n/w POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 Arts Loft/6 25 IF 10 CCI BC H 11:53:47 203.673 00.00 1358.937 43 
2 E&B&K/19 2015 IF 10 LBRA BC H 11:49:43 200.426 00.08 1358.207 42 
3 E&B&K 804 IF 10 NSBR DC C 11:49:55 2/ 19 00.20 1357.162 41 
4 E&B&K 712 IF 10 LIN BC H 11:50:41 3/ 19 01.06 1353.171 40 
5 Walter Cic/17 25 IF 10 LIN BLKC H 11:56:23 204.799 01.10 1352.971 39 
6 Walter Cichon 23 IF 10 LIN BB H 11:56:41 2/ 17 01.27 1351.483 38 
7 Walter Cichon 21 IF 10 LIN BCS H 11:56:57 3/ 17 01.43 1350.141 37 
8 Walter Cichon 981 IF 10 ITFA BBS C 11:57:04 4/ 17 01.51 1349.510 36 

13 Walter Cichon 1 IF 10 LIN BCS H 12:04:28 5/ 17 09.15 1313.120 31 
32 Walter Cichon 980 IF 10 ITFA RED C 12:18:03 6/ 17 22.49 1251.240 12 
34 Walter Cichon 49 IF 10 LIN BBS H 12:18:23 7/ 17 23.10 1249.758 10 
47 Walter Cichon 2 IF 10 LIN BCS C 12:23:37 8/ 17 28.24 1227.484 0 
54 Walter Cichon 56 IF 10 LIN VEL H 12:26:54 9/ 17 31.40 1213.959 0 
55 Walter Cichon 17 IF 10 LBR BC H 12:27:01 10/ 17 31.48 1213.434 0 

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WinSpeed-1 LINDENHURST CLUB 10/10/10-12:41 Weekly Race Report Page 1 Open and Sportsman Category Name: 7-250C Young Bird Race Flown: 10/10/2010 Release(A): 08:00 Birds: 221 Lofts: 14 Station: FT. LITTLETON, PA Weather (Rel) , s/e clear (Arr) , s/e clear , s/e clear POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT 
1 LARKIN/21 549 IF 10 LBR BC H 13:03:17 260.272 00.00 1510.392 48 
2 LARKIN 1009 IF 10 LIN BB H 13:03:24 2/ 21 00.07 1509.795 47 
3 LARKIN 542 IF 10 LBR BC H 13:03:24 3/ 21 00.07 1509.745 46 

9 Walter Cic/18 23 IF 10 LIN BB H 13:06:10 250.563 14.12 1440.329 40
13 Walter Cichon 25 IF 10 LIN BLKC H 13:21:59 2/ 18 30.00 1369.592 36 
26 Walter Cichon 2 IF 10 LIN BCS C 13:35:16 3/ 18 43.17 1315.335 23
31 Walter Cichon 21 IF 10 LIN BCS H 13:37:51 4/ 18 45.53 1305.246 18 
32 Walter Cichon 980 IF 10 ITFA RED C 13:37:51 5/ 18 45.53 1305.246 17


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> This seasons yb results. Maybe not the best results this season but I'm leading average speed by around 10 mins after the first 7 races so far so I'd say I'm doing alright. We used to have about 15 more shippers but one guy was killing ppl the past 4 years and ppl went to another club thinking so they wouldn't have to fly against him. I'm pretty sure he won the IF champion loft this past OB season and is gonna have a few IF Hall of Fame birds from OB's as well. You can see him in the last race below where I'm 9th he got me with 5 birds...............


 I am happy for you that you are doing well in your club where you are flying with 200-300 birds. I'm just trying to figure out what these race results are suppose to indicate ? Are you suggesting that these race results vindicate all of your breeding theories and ideas ? 

I am not suggesting that you are not doing well in your club, but your local race results, would not vindicate your breeding theories. Because, IMHO...these results could be because you are an above average handler, you could have an above average loft, you could be in a better then average loft position. All kinds of factors, other then above average pigeon breeding skills, could explain these race results.

Now, breeding some YB's and then sending them to various other fanciers around the country, or to various one loft events, where above average race results are duplicated by other fanciers, now that would provide evidence that your breeding theories are holding some water. And even then, I am not sure it would be proof positive, because it could just be that you got your hands on some good stock, that were bred by someone else, and it was that breeder's theories and ideas, which are really being tested ? 

Human nature being what it is, we all give ourselves more credit, then other people give us credit for. I don't know the answers....heck...I don't even know all of the questions. I think the way to figure out, where one is, in terms of breeding quality pigeons, is to send a bunch to a bunch of One Loft events, and then see what kinds of results they are able to turn in. If you end up leading in average speed in a number of these events, you will end up a wealthy man, as you will be earning six figures a year in winnings, and that is just in the USA, and then there would be another six figures from people who will want to buy some of your "Bred For Stock" birds !!!


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Haha,.
pigeono446.

There's no need to become hostile.
Nothing I said was direct! But to fanciers as a whole.
If you want to breed off birds that have no race experience, 
then go for it.


Even SmithFamilyLoft agrees with me,
Not to drag him into anything here..


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

fresnobirdman said:


> Haha,.
> pigeono446.
> 
> There's no need to become hostile.
> ...


Well you will find several lofts That have bred birds for stock. BUT they do not SALE those birds they hold them over and work them into there breeding program. As you will find many a person will BUY birds breed from them find out they are no good for breeding decent birds AND SALE them to regain there money back and some other fool buys them and has the same results. ANY pedigreed bird can look good on paper and raced good But just can not breed good birds. This happens more then not. Or it would be so simple buy good birds with a good race record And you breed good birds. JUST can not happen. in top lofts those talked about great birds just come along every so often Sometimes 10 15 years apart While decent birds come along sometimes every year here and there. BUt those great birds stay in there loft Unless some one offers a great price. This is supposed to be a hobby BUT some look at it as a way to make money. those should be buyer beware. And some great lofts Do not even keep pedigrees they have simple loft records that go back say 3 generations and That all they need. Because they do not depend on some great grand father bird to breed into the birds. As by 3 generations bred away from that bird you have a whole different lot in the make and each year you look at what you bred and hopefully kept the right bird to strenghen the loft. But it takes years to found a loft. and a life time to build it. Many people come and go Some come up the ranks fast because they bought right Then fail because they bred wrong. Just a few stay consistant year after year . And that is because of there effert to strive to move forward . But It is a hooby that rewards each person Be it they won or they lost. Because it was meant to be a hooby and hobbies are rewarding. I would almost bet i could take a set amount of birds NOT RACE them but trtain themout 100 miles as young and 200 as old birds Breed frome them selecting and adding as needed for 10 years AND still have good race birds that would be able to race and breed birds that could race. those birds would have zero race records But would have been maintained right. selection is in the minds eye and that has to be learned not bought. While its best to compare your birds aginsts others to know there true worth This still could be done.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

What I don't like about One loft event is that the birds may just be following other birds. Can that really test the birds compared to say going to your own loft? Those local birds might, for example, be going in a flock, then they have to separate from the flock to go to your own loft. That itself is a talent. What I am trying to say is that there are pros and cons of each type of races. I don't believe that One loft event can define how good really your birds are unless you are talking about average consistent performance. Watching Youtube videos on One loft events showed that groups of birds might drop at the same time. The first bird that land might not necessarily win because it didn't trap fast enough. Here is my idea. A really good stock bird breeders might have produce birds that do well locally and on those One loft events. Such breeders will be very expensive to acquire so we end up in full circle again. Should we stock the young birds from them unflown?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I can understand your point Rodsd. I personally like the 1 loft concept for 1 reason: they are fed the same, train the same, and are trained to home to 1 loft. I realize a bird can have an off day due to energy, not feeling well, etc., but all of the demoninator's are the same in a 1 loft event. As I have read in the posts, I have learned that having a loft position on the short end of the race course is a big advantage. Besides all of the above reasons, due to my job, I cannot race with a local club. I simply do not have the time for training hops, etc.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Everyone here should enter the 2nd Annual Pigeon Talk Classic next year!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I definitely am, but from what I am reading, Flagdoodle is getting out of the pigeon business, that is if I read the post correctly.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Like Warren said the best way to tell if your birds are any good is by letting other ppl fly them it would be cool if we could get 2 or 3 lofts in different parts of the country to do the PT one loft race next year so we can see who really has the best not just who has the best that fit a certain handler or race course. We can see who scores the most points total in all the lofts combined to crown a true PT One Loft Champion.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Like Warren said the best way to tell if your birds are any good is by letting other ppl fly them it would be cool if we could get 2 or 3 lofts in different parts of the country to do the PT one loft race next year so we can see who really has the best not just who has the best that fit a certain handler or race course. We can see who scores the most points total in all the lofts combined to crown a true PT One Loft Champion.


I know a person that has some good birds And raises young birds then sendes them to differnt peopl as kits to have them race them for him. Different areas of the US he does not race just raise and let others race them. No charge his bird are tested that way. So you can sen a bird her there and other places for people to race them And not have to do the 1 loft races. But 1 loft races ofer MONEY if your bird wins.


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