# bulging eye still continues



## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Here is the latest photo of Craow Dum. As you can see you can see his eye is bulging despite all the vet visits trying to eradicate the bacterial infection chambered in his sinus. I am at my wits end.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Thank you for the update. Have you tried seeing a holistic avian vet?*


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Poor pigeon. How does he eat?
What did the vet prescribe him for the infection?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Keep him as comfortable as possible is about all you can do at this point excluding euth.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Poor guy, hope he comfortable. Good luck


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

poor little fella, hopefully that top beak will grow back in time, it will need reshaped as it grows, good luck


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*rotten beak*

He has been back and forth to the top Avian surgeon in my region. Unfortunately nothing else can be done and he looks awful.He has had every tests in the world and bombarded with all kinds of meds and sat inside a nebulizing machine for two weeks.
He continues to eat well and poop well. This has been a long year long situation. I contacted Dr Walker in Australia via email for a last ditch effort and suggestions. (the Flying vet)


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

pirab buk said:


> He has been back and forth to the top Avian surgeon in my region. Unfortunately nothing else can be done and he looks awful.He has had every tests in the world and bombarded with all kinds of meds and sat inside a nebulizing machine for two weeks.
> *He continues to eat well *and poop well. This has been a long year long situation. I contacted Dr Walker in Australia via email for a last ditch effort and suggestions. (the Flying vet)


How does he eat? Will you please describe. I am really curious since it's missing the upperside of the beak.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*bulging eye*

He eats fine so long as I fill his food dish to the top.He uses his bottom beak as a shovel.
I brought him back to the vet yesterday. The vet did agree that he was getting worse. She feared that he had a growing "mass" that perhaps involved the vascular system (not good) She suggested a CAT scan in which I would have to drive into the city to have done. It would be expensive and if it is indeed a mass nothing can be done. I would prefer just exploratory surgery but the vet thinks he only has a 50/50 survival (if lucky)
I am just waiting to hear what the cost estimate will be for both.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The vet contacted me and suggested a swab culture and blood test for possible circovirus. I think the CAT scan is out. I have an appointment on monday.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Good luck . I hope they find out fast for you and your buddy


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh my -- I am so sorry you are going through this! I hope you find some answers!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*not good news*

Well we had another last ditch vet visit to see if ANYTHING at all could be done and unfortunately, the vet gave Craow Dum a 90/10 chance of surviving any surgery. The poor bird looks awful but he doesn't seem to be bothered by it. He eats well, poops well and still follows me around. I had him tested for the circovirus blood/swabs but even if it is positive there is nothing you can do for it.
I am doing what I have been doing all along. keeping him clean and well fed.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

How long has it been now for you? I am amazed by your love for your bird. Most would have given up long ago. Thank you for caring so much.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I missed the first part of this long ordeal -- what caused the beak to disintegrate? Does anyone know?

This is so heartbreaking -- I know how very much you love this wonderful bird! He's sure a fighter, and his spirit to keep going is inspirational.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

It appears that small feathers are still growing out above his eye(s), since some of the feathers are still encased in the cylindrical follicles, which flake apart as the feather spreads open. 

If he is eating well and pooping well, he is probably enjoying life. 

If someone is enjoying life, then whether one has kids, a pay raise, their twentieth car in in their went-car garage, the right hair-do, and blah-blah-blah, become superfluous issues to worry about.

It seems that so far the two of you seem to be doing fairly well. You are doing your best to care for him; take care of yourself. I'm sure he feels cared for.

Larry


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

You're an awesome person for caring for this pigeon

Can you remember the exact antibiotics that you've been given to treat her so far? She might only need you to switch the family of antibiotics, say to doxycycline or a amoxicillin.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*circovirus!*

I got the results from the mucus swab and blood tests for circovirus.
It tested positive.
At least now I know.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Another step in the battle. Hoping for good results. -- Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Circovirus*

http://www.springerlink.com/content/0phynht9r1l886p4/



> Abstract
> Circoviruses are a diverse group of animal and plant pathogens with undefined relationships to one another but for their non-geminate, non-enveloped capsids and circular, single-stranded DNA genomes. The sequences of the *beak and feather disease virus* and porcine circovirus genomic DNAs are presented and analyzed in the context of the other members of the family. Sequence comparisons, inferred phylogenies, and geographic occurrence suggest that the ambisense circoviruses, particularly the beak and feather disease virus, represent an evolutionary link between the geminiviruses and the plant circoviruses. We propose that the family members be reclassified into three groups: The family Circoviridae consists of the animal pathogens (beak and feather disease virus and porcine circovirus) that possess ambisense genomes with striking similarities to the geminiviruses. The BBTV-like viruses include the plant pathogens (coconut foliar decay virus, banana bunchy top virus, subterranean clover stunt virus) with a geminivirus-like stem-loop element in their DNAs, and single to multiple component genomes. The chicken anemia virus is an unassigned virus possessing unique characteristics bearing little similarity to the other ssDNA viruses.
> Received *March 3, 1998* Accepted April 4, 1998


One symptom is that the pigeon stops eating. But, pirab-buk is still eating!!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Larry, the bird's name is Craow Dum, Pirab-buk is the human 

Pirab-buk, your relentless care for this pigeon is legendary. I am so amazed, humbled and inspired. I truly do hope there is a way to help him recover and overcome this ordeal.

The bird must truly love you. In its helpless and seemingly hopeless state, this human still persistently care for him and love him like a cherished family member - just thinking about it brings a tear to my eye!

Keep soldering on, both of you. You have our well-wishes and healing thoughts with you. Do keep us updated!


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

> Larry, the bird's name is Craow Dum, Pirab-buk is the human


Yes, I knew that, somewhere in the hinterlands of my brain. Late at night for me, very tired. Dum(b)-Dum(b) me.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*circovirus*

I am sorry to bother but I just need a place to vent my frustrations plus your thoughts and prayers.
As I posted a week ago after a conclusive vet visit. My beakless pigeon does indeed have the circovirus. None of the meds given to cure any of secondary infections worked.He still eats and poops without any problems. I still clean his face and nose twice daily. Yesterday he took a bath.
This morning next to his bulging eye I found a big white ulcer on his head. I am guessing like a fistula. The infection is finding it's way out.
I thought about taking him to the vet for "the last visit" but he still eats Ok and poops normally like nothing is wrong.
The poor creature and yet, he doesn't seemed bothered.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Pirab!

Thats pretty good news, with her eating and droppings being normal. And great work getting a proper diagnosis too!

As far I've read personally, most pigeons recover from Circovirus , and the affected pigeon will have a good immunity against it afterwards. Its a struggle to pull a pigeon through a virus while their immune system is struggling. I know because I've had dozens of virus-affected rescues with me this year. But its worth putting in the effort to see them get better .

Heres' some info I've read about circovirus by an avian Vet specialising in pigeons: Basically, he recommends a good probiotic and supportive care.

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Young_Bird_Disease.html


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Pirab, if Craow Dum is still eating and enjoying it, then he is still enjoying life. When things become too much for him, he will probably lose his appetite. It could be, _could_ be, that you are suffering more than he is, strange as it may sound. You are tired and frustrated and feel hopeless because you haven't "cured" him yet, but it may be that he is getting everything he needs from you, and is content with that.

The disease may be coming to a head, and he may have an immunity afterwards that may prove beneficial to other birds.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you both.

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*sore on head*

I think you are correct Larry. I am frustrated and sad. He looks just awful. I cleaned him as usual this morning and he just followed me up the stairs afterwards. I am doing what the vet suggested by keeping him clean and well fed. 
The problem is that he has a bacterial bone infection (secondary infection) that is not responding to the massive doses of (a variety of broad spectrum) antibiotics that should have knocked the infection out.This ranges from injectable antibiotics, nebulizing mists and oral meds...whew!
I am just holding onto him so long as he is eating, drinking and pooping normally.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with Larry, if the bird is eating and acting as his normal, then he is presumably as happy and content as he can be. Remember, the bird doesnt know whats wrong with him, so will just accept things and go about his business as usual untill he feels he cant. If/when that time comes, then you may have to make a descision, but mean time if hes acting & pooping fine, then hes happy and content. 
When one sees irregularities or handicaps in a species, one tends to look and dwell on the down side because its not the norm that we are used to, but those with the handicaps, although some do need that extra help, tend to adapt well and get around them in such a way that it doesnt bother them.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you for the encouragement.
He/She is such an amazing bird.
One day at time.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi, from the first picture seems very similar case with one of my birds. I have had a very sick bird that I treated with various drugs but above the beak, in the sinus an infection increased over time and did not respond to certain antibiotics. I eventually used a combination of antibiotics, antifungal and antiparasitic and this was the only way I managed to withdraw the infection. Now the pigeon is perfect cure and never got sick again, so it was a very resistant infection which responded only to a powerful combination of drugs. The cyst gradually diminished after two weeks to dry and fell, then the remaining hole has healed very well.I attached some pictures of him during treatment.

Dana


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

And these pictures are after I start the combinations of meds and the infection have gradually healed.

Dana


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Those are amazing pictures, Dana. I love the outcome.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow, amazing recovery! That does seem like it could be a similar condition to what Craow Dum has, which is hopeful. Did this little guy's beak stop scissoring when he recovered?

Thanks for posting these pics -- they're very helpful.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Omg!!! Please tell me what meds you used. Amounts and how administered. Did you get them from a vet?
What was the initial diagnosis?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think this thread should be a sticky.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

What is a 'sticky"?
I am at 'the end" of what to do about my bird. he/she has been back & forth to the vet
numerous times. I even contacted Dr Walker from Australia and so far, it's been hopeless.
Clindamycin, baytril and doxyxycline plus anti-fungal meds.
Perhaps there is something else out there that might work.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

This little glimmer of hope now makes me desperate.
help?!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That was amazing Dana, thanks for posting the pics! Well done with persisting through such an agonizing experience!



pirab buk said:


> What is a 'sticky"?
> I am at 'the end" of what to do about my bird. he/she has been back & forth to the vet
> numerous times. I even contacted Dr Walker from Australia and so far, it's been hopeless.
> Clindamycin, baytril and doxyxycline plus anti-fungal meds.
> Perhaps there is something else out there that might work.


There are two other families of antibiotics you could try which are commonly used to treat pigeon illness. 

The first would be penicillin in the form of amoxicillin. I've had great success with it in the past, and it has excellent anti-inflammatory properties. This is what I would try next if it were me. Its a very powerful antibiotic.

The other family you haven't tried yet are the sulfa antibiotics (eg bactrim, sulmet, trimetheprim, triple sulfa etc).

Its probably worth mentioning you can't use these together. You can use doxycycline and Baytril together, but not so with the others.

Even just a regular anti inflammatory medicine may be what your pigeon needs.?

With this circovirus going on, the bird will probably respond a little less quickly than normal, so I wouldn't be too impatient to see quick results.Anyway I hope that helps.

PS. SInce you've been to the Vet several times, did they work out what bacterial infection is present, and what it should respond to?


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

The drugs I used in this case are Levofloxacin (is a stronger version of ciprofloxacin/ enrofloxacin) levofloxacin dose was 5 mg every 12 h. Clindamycin is another antibiotic I use, the dose was 12 mg every 12h. Besides these two antibiotics we used Tinidazole 10 mg every 12h (tinidazole is a stronger version of metronidazole). And an antifungal, I used Fluconazole, dose 2 mg every 12h. So all the drugs were administered at the same period, before I used Clindamycin alone and did not work but in this combination gave excellent results. As I remember I kept him on this dose for two weeks, then dropped all the doses to half until the cyst fell. I think I went 2 more weeks to finish.

And I also used in this time antiinflamatory Metacam (meloxicam) because it helps the medication to penetrate better the heart of infection. All the drugs I have prepared in suspension, here I found only human form and are in very high doses. Maybe in your area you can find these medicines in veterinary form and will be much easier with the dose, if not I can help you if you need to prepare medicines, you just tell me what doses medicines you bought.

The pigeon beak's remained so scissoring, but eating alone and is very well now. He was very lucky he did not lose the upper beak, I really was sure that she will lose it.

Dana


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I also want to mention that before using this combination of drugs I use, as I said Clindamycin, I use Enrofloxacin(Baytril) with Doxycycline, Sulfa antibiotics, Augmentin, Metronidazole, Azithromycin but not all in the same period, were used separately and have been unsuccessful and the infection developed more in the meantime.

Dana


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

What a blessing it would be if this combination could clear up Craow Dum's infection!

That is a combination of a lot of powerful drugs -- this type of infection must be very, very resistant to treatment.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow Dana, that was a huge effort! Its so good to hear a story like yours, where your hard work paid off; thanks for the detailed info & for sharing the happy ending

Its interesting that you had to add the canker med & Metacam as well as the antibiotics & antifungals. That reminds me of a couple of times where I added anti-inflammatories to a treatment that wasn't going so well, and the bird picked right up and finally was on the mend. 

Anyway well done!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I am praying that with this info, Craow Dum will finally see recovery in the horizon! Pirab, all the VERY best in trying out Dana's suggestion.

Dana, you're an inspiration with your dedication and persistence in giving a bird a better life. Just incredible!

Thank you both SO MUCH!!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*hope*

I am going to copy this info and send it to my vet.
I was going to set up an appointment with a vet I had years and years ago but he is at least 2 1/2 hours away for a second opinion.
Thank you Dana for your response.
how is your pigeon doing now?


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab buk, also please tell to your vet that I used these doses for a body weight of 300g, must weigh the bird first to be sure that his weight is about 300g. If you have not used yet Metronidazole, I want you to know that you can use it instead of Tinidazol. Metronidazole dose is 5mg per 100g body weight every 12 hours. I have not used Metronidazole because I gave it to him before and he did not respond to Metronidazole. So unless you did not used it before you can use it now instead of Tinidazole.

My bird is perfectly healthy now, did not even notice that in that place he had a big infection. The feathers grew there and is very healthy now. This bird was found last fall and since then has always been sick. Once you can treat it soon after becoming ill again and in the spring started to develop this agressiv sinus infection. Well, since I have treated this infection he is healthier than ever, he is active as was never before.

If you need more information do not hesitate to ask me. I wish you all to go well and your bird to heal well. I hope we get good news from you. Good luck!

Dana


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Charis:


> "I think this thread should be a sticky."


Pirab:


> "What is a sticky?"


Pirab, a "sticky" is like a sticky note. It is a thread that is made to stay at the top of the "page," ahead of other ongoing threads, because someone (a moderator, I think), considers it to contain important and relevant information for other members.

If you look at the various forums, you will see that the first threads are marked "sticky."

Thats how I interpret a "sticky." I believe the term came from the discovery by a 3M research scientist who discovered an adhesive which was not very sticky or adherent. Paper notes with a bit of this adhesive were called Post-its." Apple used the term "Stickies" for one of its Dashboard/desktop applications, which resembled a "Post-it" note.

Okay, I looked it up, because I thought it was fascinating when I first read about it many yeas ago: 

From Wickipedia:


> History of Post-it note:
> In 1968, Dr. Spencer Silver, a chemist at 3M in the United States, was attempting to develop a super-strong adhesive, but instead he accidentally created a "low-tack", reusable, pressure-sensitive adhesive.[1][2] For five years, Silver promoted his invention within 3M, both informally and through seminars, but without much success. In 1974, a colleague of his, Art Fry, who had attended one of Silver's seminars, came up with the idea of using the adhesive to anchor his bookmark in his hymnbook.[3][4] Fry then developed the idea by taking advantage of 3M's officially sanctioned "permitted bootlegging" policy.[4] 3M launched the product in stores in 1977 in four cities under the name "Press 'n Peel", but its results were disappointing.[5][6] A year later, in 1978, 3M issued free samples to residents of Boise, Idaho, and 94 percent of the people who tried them said that they would buy the product.[5] On April 6, 1980, the product debuted in US stores as "Post-It Notes".[7] In 1981, Post-its were launched in Canada and Europe.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Pirab, last night I was studying my jackdaw and pigeon skulls, and comparing them to the your photo and to the photos posted by Vulturescu/Dana.

It appears to me that these infections are mostly on the top of the head, outside the skull. The swelling of the infection of the infection is pulling his eyelids up, giving him the "bulging eye" look. The bony ring round the eye does not seem to be affected. The upper beak is like three thin tripods legs standing out from its base on the forehead of the skull. The bones of the beak are very thin, and the upper beak in Craow Dum has been affected, but otherwise these infections seem to be mostly under the skin, and look as though they should heal given enough time.

A more virulent form of the circovirus would have made more progress, done more damage, by now. (My opinion).

I'm thinking he's going to pull out of this situation. He'll be like a guy without a nose, and without hands to pick up food, but you will be his hands, and you will be his nose. Again, my opinion, but I'm hopeful.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

How long a period did you need to medicate your bird? two weeks? or longer for all 4 meds ?(the levofloxacin, clindamycin, tinidazole and fluconazole?)
(I have fluconazole left over from a year ago. I do not know if it is good anymore since it is a compounded drug.)
yes, my bird weighs about 326 grams. He eats fine despite his illness and missing beak.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh BTW I did use metronidozole in the very beginning at his first check up (a year ago) because he had giardia. It cleared that up A-OK


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

My vet called me after I sent her the info.
Can I ask where you get levofloxacin? She can't seem to find it in the USA nor tinidazole.
Also a question about clindamycin, I had the hardest time administering the huge amount of meds orally. Any help on giving it orally?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab buk

I don't know if this will help your vet or not, but Tinidazole is marketed for humans under the brand name Tindamax, and levofloxacin is marketed as Levaquin. Both are readily available as human drugs by prescription (I was prescribed both of these drugs myself.) If the veterinary form isn't available, I wonder if she can write a prescription for the human form, or knows someone who could?

That's a powerful drug combo -- I was on almost that exact combination of drugs myself, for Lyme disease -- they work synergistically and give much better results than each one by itself.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Minimonkey responded very well to you, you will find Tinidazole and Levofloxacin as human drugs. I also use the human form of Levofloxacin and Tinidazole. 
I'll help you to prepare them in suspension. You'll also need a 1 ml syringe with which you will give the suspension to your bird and you need honey that you will use for make the suspension. After you buying all the drugs you must tell me what is the strength/concentration of the pills.

His weight 326g is good, you can use the same doses. 

My bird was 4 weeks on these medication but I do not know to tell you in your case if will be required 4 weeks. It depends on how the infection heal, dependes of as quickly the infection withdraw. Should receive medication until he is completely healed. How big is the cyst now? Is just like my pigeons cyst, or higher or lower?

Dana


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm just wondering, didn't the Vet do a culture to work out what medicine is right for the bacterial infection? I'm not following why there is still experimentation with different medicines occurring, when Vet tests were done? I only experiment personally when I can't afford tests.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Unfortunately I could not do the lab tests, so we had to try several different medications. I think the most important thing is that we managed to find this combination of drugs witch give us excellent results. 

I took some pictures today to see how he looks now. You can not see at all the place where it was the cyst, in that place has only a few fluffy flakes.

Dana


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Now he look very healthy, than it was before. Almost a year was sickly and had very unhealthy plumage. In the last 3 pictures you can see how he was before.

Dana


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*levofloxacin*

I found levofloxacin 250mg for tablets via CVS. I will contact my vet with this info.I can get metronidazole easily though but not tinidazole.
More importantly, what was the bacteria that caused this infection in your bird?
Also, how do you get the meds down your birds throat? or can you get it injectable? I have a heck of time getting the meds down his throat because it is different than giving a parrot meds. What does your syringe look like?
Here is a pic I took of Craow Dum


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## ThePigeonShack (Jun 14, 2012)

Wow you are an angel.

I tip my hat

GREAT JOB


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

OK, this you see in the link is 1ml or 1cc syringes, is the thinnest syringe.

http://www.vetdepot.com/syringe-1-cc-27-gauge-x-1-2-in-allergy-terumo-100.html

Dana


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Also see if you can find Ronidazole instead of Metronidazole. Ronidazole you should find it to your vet. You should start as soon as possible the medication, the infection is quite high.

What did you ask me about Clindamycin, please you can be more specific because I did not understand very well.

Dana


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

So I will already tell you how to prepare Levofloxacin suspension, maybe you manage to start as soon as you can. 
Take one pill of Levofloxacin and crush up into as fine a powder as you can, when the pill is ground up add 5ml of pancake syrup, honey or corn syrup (one of these, what you have in the house) to this and stir very well, you can use the 1cc syringe to the 1cc mark 5 times to measure, stir very well and you will have 5% suspension of Levofloxacin, 50mg/ml. Take the 1cc syringe (you can throw the needle) and draw a 0.10cc dose (5mg), this will be to the first line and give this to twice a day, 0.10cc(5mg) every 12h. You will give in his mouth, you slightly open his beak and release suspension in his throat, make sure you do not get anything into the trachea. When you open his beak, on the tongue base opens a hole that is his trachea, please be careful and avoid trachea when you release the suspension from the syringe.
You must stir very well in suspension before use, cover and keep in cold place.

In the same way can be prepared Clindamycin suspension, just depends on the concentration capsules and the dosage is different for Clindamycin. I can help you if you give me the streght of the capsules.

Dana


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Levofloxacin is in the same class of drugs as baytril.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I had in the past dropped one drop at a time giving him meds. It took close to an hour by this method. I assume taking the syringe PAST the tongue with a person holding him would work?
Also, any idea what the bacteria was that infected your bird?
The area on his head where it is protruding is hard.
Was this also true of your bird?
BTW my vet emailed me she can get the meds (compounded)


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Bella, Craow Dum had just about every test in the book
CBC test, multiple gram stains, chlamydia blood test, histology test, histopathology tissue test, cytology test, various swabs and the PCR circovirus test.(over a year's time)
What came up positive was giardia which was taken care of a year ago.
Also he was loaded with feather lice which I irradicated with lice spray.
Last March, The cytology report showed a bone infection. "Klebsiella" was the nasty "bug" and so the meds that were to work on this infection were baytril and clindamycin. However, it did not.
After the latest test revealing circovirus. It was concluded that the virus is causing a weak immune system made the meds impotent. This was it and I felt there was no hope.
However, by at least trying this combination of "different" meds suggested by Dana, I can only hope for a miracle. :-(


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the info piran buk.

So just to clarify, you're saying some of those tests and treatments were performed a year ago for other problems, eg. the gardia treatment. And the treatment for the bone infection with Baytril was 6-7 months ago (or did you mean 18 months ago?), so not recent either? 




> Last March, The cytology report showed a bone infection. "Klebsiella" was the nasty "bug" and so the meds that were to work on this infection were baytril and clindamycin. However, it did not.


Are you saying the bone infection you treated with baytril never cleared up and its still a current problem, as well as the swelling on the head? Or is the swelling on the head the only problem right now?

What about tests for the swelling on the head, which is the current problem? Is the swelling thought to be entirely due to a virus (like in pox virus, where the pigeons get nasty boils full of virus), or did the vet identify some bacteria associated with the swelling?

I guess what leaps out at me is if you treated your pigeon with baytril & other meds a year ago or so, for other problems, then you could use them again for the current problem. I wouldn't give up hope based on your bird getting sick again; sometimes it happens especially when they have a virus. The immune system picks up after the virus is gone.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

A year ago, when I first found him, he was prophylaxicallly treated with baytril, fluconazole, metronidazole and metacam. Despite this, he had many many vet visits after this to check him as well as other tests since his beak was still rotting despite these efforts.
Last march, after a histology and cytology test concluded that he had a bone infection. he was given a month long regiment of baytril and clindamycin AND then he was in a nebulizer with a baytril mist.
The beak still rotted.
About two months ago, I noticed his left eye was swelling and brought him back to the vet.

She didn't think there was any thing else to be done since he had not responded to the meds. I was persistant. The vet contacted pigeon vets out of the state and suggested a circovirus test a few weeks ago
It came back positive
So here I am.
My vet order those meds Dana suggested as a last ditch effort.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I know it can be difficult but If someone helps you and hold the bird will be very easy to open his beak and giving the suspension. Or you can wrap the bird in the towel just let him head out and slightly open his beak.

Good that your vet found the drugs, it would be much better if you also find Tinidazol. And go on the same dose that we used it. Good luck!

Dana


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I do believe my vet found the tinidazol as well.
I am just waiting to hear from the pharmacy. I just order tube-like syringes to hopefully get the meds past his tongue. The other problem I am dealing with is deformities. Not only is he missing his top beak but his throat is thick with extra tissue. Twice a day I clean his face/nose/mouth of debris.
*Thank you all for hearing me out and responding to my pigeon situation. 
It's extremely stressful and everyone around me here is sick of listening to me on how worried I am about my pigeon.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I suspect the problem with med dosing on this bird is due to him having only the lower beak, so opening it is tricky -- I think I'd crop dose if possible .. it seems safer all around. You still might need someone to help you, but wrapping him in a towel might work. 

Walgreens can order tinidazole for humans -- I got it from them before (for me). I think CVS, or any major pharmacy, can get it. You may need to have a prescription written for you, rather than for the bird, though ... I think veterinary use may be off label. Your vet probably knows how to go about this.

Have you done tube feeding or crop dosing before? You're right about getting the syringe past the tongue -- I find it easier all around to do it with a thin tube into the crop, and much safer, too. 

I wonder if there are any antiviral medications that can be given to pigeons? 

Is he getting vitamins? Vitamin D helps the immune system tremendously ... seems like his immune system could use all the help it can get!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Ah, you posted while I was answering you! Glad your vet found the tinidazole! 

You can order catheter tubing which attaches to the end of a syringe -- that allows you to place the tube down past the tongue, into the crop ... it's a flexible rubber tube, and comes in very thin sizes. Maybe your vet can get it for you, or it can be ordered from a medical supply house ... I suspect this would be the best way to administer meds to this bird.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for explaining the history in more detail, pirab buk, and sorry to pester you with so many questions. Its been so rough on you, with dealing with such a difficult infection as well as the other problems

This `Klebsiella' bacteria that your vet found in your pigeon looks to be a highly drug resistant according to what I've been reading about it In humans, drug therapies for treating it can last months. It appears that the therapy you chose was the right one to start with. Its possible to extend this therapy to 3 months or more, like they do with humans, or do what you're proposing, which is to try another combination of medicine.

I don't know how experienced your Vet is, but when Klebsiella is present in humans, doctors are careful to test and retest the sensitivity to the medicines used to treat the Klebsiella. You might need another culture performed, also to double check for co-infections like Staphylococcus and Streptococcus (which normally cause bone infections in animals).

You're a very special person pirab, and you're doing an amazing job with this bird.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Klabsiella is a lot like the Lyme bacterium, it seems ... it can coat itself in mucus and evade treatment ( from what I've read.) The drug combo that Vulturescu suggested is very effective at treating Lyme, and I suspect it might work well for Klebsiella, too -- it is designed to target resistant and shape-shifting bacteria.

I hope the new drug combo works -- this poor bird (and you, Pirab Buk!) have been through so much!!


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab buk, I suggest you do not give him vitamin supplements during treatment. Vitamins(especially calcium) can interact with antibiotics and I think that certainly it is safety to not use them. 
When you finish the treatment you can use them.

I'll say a little pray for Craow Dum to heal well as healed and my pigeon Johnny. I know you're going through and how hard it is and I really hope that everything go well.

Dana


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Klebsiella:
-----------
Interesting about the Klebsiella. A strain of multi-resistant _Klebsiella Pneumonae_ was found in my sputum in January 2009. I read also that it killed a lot of the people who had it. Whenever I went to the hospital for weekly therapy (autogenic drainage to remove mucus from the lungs) the physiotherapist and I had to put on gowns, gloves, masks, etc, and use a seldom-used room in the seldom-used basement of the children's clinic. I had probably picked it up somewhere in the hospital (my opinion). Later, in May of that year, I was informed that my last two previous sputum cultures did not show any Klebsiella. The tests showed that the Klebsiella was sensitive to cipro or ciprofloxacin, but I did not have to resort to using cipro. I was taking a daily dose of cotrim/bactrim/septrim, which it was probably resistant to, though.

I have had several multi-resistant strains of bacteria come and go over the years. So, some bacteria get a foothold, some don't. I suspect that I harbored some bacteria who didn't want to make way for the newcomer.

Tubing: 
--------
One vet told me to get some narrow rubber tubing which was readily available at the next-door pet shop, which specialized in snakes. I used a two-inch piece on the end of the 1-mm or 2-mm syringe to easily medicate my rescues. I put a bit of olive oil or sunflower oil on the outside of the tube first, and rotated it as I put it down the pigeon's throat. All you have to do is avoid catching the tip of Craow Dum's tongue.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thin, flexible aquarium tubing also works with syringes. The oil on the outside of the tube definitely helps, as Larry said. 

I was doing some reading about Circovirus ... it pretty much destroys the bird's immune system (it was compared to AIDS in humans) -- making the bird very vulnerable to secondary infections and unable to fight them off. Some people have seen very good recoveries with treating the secondary infections, though, so it is worth trying the new meds. 

Larry, I am glad to hear you knocked out the Klebsiella ... Nasty bacteria all around! Hope you remain healthy!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just regarding the specification for the tube for tube feeding/medicating, I was told the tube needs to be 6 inches long to make it to the crop, and 2 inches is too short (though I can see it working for small quantities of fluid, say under 0.5 ml)

Also, there is a bit more of trick to getting the end of the tube smooth enough for entry into the throat- oiling it is good, but you're supposed to also use a flame to melt & smooth off the end.

PS. I don't tube feed, but this is what Dobato and Phil told me when they were trying to teach me how to do it. They are both very experienced with this.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the additional info, Bella!

I use the soft rubber catheter tubing, and just cut the end so that it is rounded ... it is very soft, and I've never had any problem with insertion as long as it is oiled. I can definitely see where melting would be good with the aquarium tubing, which can be a little bit sharp on the ends. 

I do use a piece that is about 6 inches long -- you can actually feel it go into the crop, well past the airway, if you press gently on the crop while you insert it. FeralPigeon taught me how to do this when I first started rehabbing. It's scary at first, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes easier. I had a rescue that required tube feeding for several weeks, and I got past my fear with him. 

I now prefer that method for administering any kind of liquid meds-- it's actually quite a lot safer than administering into the beak.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

minimonkey, I was wondering how you get it down without also covering the glottis and preventing the pigeon from breathing? Thats what always put me off from tubing meds or food. Is there a trick to it?


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Bella, If it helps somehow, I'll post a video as described very explicitly how tube feeding or gavaging a pigeon. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU&list=UUQ-1NSQ-QZ8absMNnZhEb2g&index=8&feature=plcp

Dana


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I just ordered syringes with tubes from Foys pigeon supply. It will be tricky because his throat has become thickened from what-ever. Nothing is normal with this bird.
My vet is a top avian surgeon in the city.And yes, she explained that this circovirus is like AIDS. I am also fighting a highly resistant secondary bacterial infection.And like I've written, we've tried all kinds of meds-except for what Dana used.(levofloxacin & tinidozole) will it work or is he so far gone? I do not know.
He is just a messy snotty mess. I have to clean his face/nose/mouth twice a day.
If "IF"this combo of meds works, I think this would be a miracle and something the vets can log down as a success in fighting all odds.My vet just emailed me saying she is trying to get confirmation from the compounding company to send me the meds.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella 

The tube is very thin, and you insert it by guiding the tube in along the side of the beak and esophagus. It slides in without resistance if you have the placement just right, and the bird has no difficulty breathing with it inserted. If the bird is having any trouble breathing, pull it out immediately and try again.

I know, it is very scary at first -- but you do get a feel for it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

As for Craow Dum, this may be harder, because of the thickened throat membrane. You might want to make the investment in a crop needle -- I've never used one myself, but they are tiny and very precise ... they aren't cheap, but they are reusable. With the thickened throat, perhaps this might be best. 

I found a link for a place that sells them:

http://www.thebirdcottage.com/s-cropneedle.asp

Let us know how the treatment goes with the new meds -- it seems that if anything is going to work, this combo will -- 

My guess is that the main problem with the meds not working so far is that the antibiotics aren't able to penetrate deeply enough into the infected area, in addition to the infection itself being incredibly antibiotic resistant -- with the additional immune problems from the circovirus, the infection has won the battle so far. 

There are some hideously resistant strains of klebsiella about -- they are one of the superbugs that hospitals most fear! Tinidazole has good penetrability of the blood/brain barrier and of tissues, and it does have some action against gram-negative bacteria. A lot of strains of klebsiella are now resistant to the flouroquinolone class of antibiotics (including levofloxacin, unfortunately) -- but it may be that this infection responds to the levofloxacin whereas it had resistance to enrofloxacin (baytril). 

In any case, with Vulturescu's meds combination, you have all the bases covered -- strong antibiotics with good penetrability, antifungal and antiprotozoal activity, metacam for increased penetrability -- if anything is going to work, it seems like this should do it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Dana -- thanks for the youtube! I think it was helpful! That is the same type of tubing I've used -- though when I first used it, I didn't have the rounded end on the tube. I just cut the end to a rounded shape, and that worked just fine. 

I just got some new tubing that does have the rounded end, and I suspect that will make things even easier -- though with thicker formula, it might clog more easily. For liquid meds, I think it will work wonderfully.

This video was helpful in showing how to extend the neck out gently, and the placement of the tube -- the main thing is to have the tube run distinctly along the side of the beak and down the throat -- unless a bird is severely dehydrated or the throat is blocked with something (canker, mucus, thick membranes) it generally slides in quite easily, and that is how you know you have the placement correct.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The pharmacy called me so the meds will be compounded. I am guessing the meds will be quite expensive-which at this point, doesn't matter. This will be FIVE meds given at once. yikes.
Dana, I am curious about the protruding area on your birds head. Before administrating the meds was the area hard or soft?
craow Dum's head lump is hard.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab buk, Johnny's head lump was very hard. We thought that if this combo of meds does give us any result probably was a cancerous tumor because it was very hard and very vascular, veins could be seen. But we were very lucky that he response to these drugs.

Yes, I know the meds are very expensive, especially Levofloxacin and Fluconazole are very expensive. If is possible, you can ask Lexofloxacin only 3 pills, are enough. 

Dana


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

With compounded meds, I think you pretty much pay what the pharmacy decides to charge, unfortunately -- but I would do the same thing (pay whatever it cost, if I could) if I had a bird that needed them. The compounded kind are premixed in suspension, I think, so at least the dosing will be easy. 

5 meds is a lot, but it may be that so many are necessary to get to the infection. 

I don't at all doubt your vet's diagnosis -- it sounds like you have a very excellent vet! But, for future reference in general, I did read a case study last night about a bird that had a very similar lump that ended up being extremely resistant canker in the sinuses ... if canker is any part of the problem, then the tinidazole should target that. 

Please keep us updated on your progress -- a lot of us are sending thoughts and prayers to you and your wonderful bird.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

OMG! thank you. Yes the lump for Craow Dum is very hard and vascular. And highly suspect of cancer. 
The meds are wicked expensive and I am on my way to pick them up. I will not be able to start them up right away because I have something I need to attend to first and I do not want the process to be uninterrupted so I then can go at it in full force. 
With the grace of God, I pray this combo works and I do not cause more harm than good by trying to get the meds down his throat.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I picked up the meds today. The levofloxicin is not very stable and therefore, I had to start the meds right away. In other words, as a compounded mix it expires fast.
OMG! it was very expensive. $250.00 (US dollars) for all five meds.
I administrated the meds like Dana suggested using the thin syringes and putting it past the tongue going very slowly. In the process it flushed heaps of snot out of his nose.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab buk, better to wait for start medication than to start and then interrupted. When you start a medication and then stop after some time, it is very dangerous because the infection can gain resistance to that medication when you'll start again and no longer has any effect the current medication. Especially in this case when the infection is already very strong, is very important to start medication and not interrupt at all until the end, please even a dose not to forget.

Dana


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

-- Sounds like you got the tube down successfully -- that's great!

Strange about the snot -- I wonder what it was about tubing it that caused his sinuses to drain? Poor little guy -- sounds like he has to contend with a lot of congestion all the time. 

I'm amazed what a brave little bird he is, and awed by your love and devotion to him. 

Sorry to hear how much the meds cost -- ouch!

Dana, how long was it before you started seeing results in your bird after you started this meds combination?


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Minimonkey, after a week I started to see that the cyst becomes slightly lower and after two weeks was at half. The fourth picture is two weeks since I started this meds combination. Then after another ten days, two weeks the cyst that remained fell, was dried and what remains then fell.

Dana


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I feel like I am losing it. My family thinks I am insane investing so much time & money on my bird.They also think I am just prolonging the inevitable for some "psychological need".
I do not think that is the case. I just feel responsible as a caretaker.
Regardless of what anyone thinks I am carrying on doing what I can do humanly possible until there is no other options since I've committed myself. 
And yet quite frankly, I've made myself sick with worry. :-(


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Don't let anyone make you feel bad and don't worry, only you know exactly what this bird needs and have been taking care of him for some time. Responsible caretakers do go to great lengths to help needy creatures.

*


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

It's funny. If I told someone in my family, "Well, I reached my limit. I've spent $250 on you, and any more is obviously overdoing it. And the time spent on nursing and caring is also approaching the ridiculous. We're all going to die anyway, and I think you ought to lie back and accept the inevitable."

They'd think I was uncaring and crazy. 

And if I mentioned that I had worried myself sick over them, and should now ease up, they'd say "Hey, I'm sicker than you are! What are you whining about?"

A matter of perspective.

But do take care of yourself. How can you care for Craow Dum if you're sick?


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## Pigeonfriend (Aug 14, 2009)

Don't listen to them. You are doing the right thing, the ONLY right thing. Too many people choose to see animals as disposable, not worth spending money on, because it makes life so much easier for THEM. You are doing the right thing. That bird relies on you to try to save its life, and that's exactly what you are doing. Good luck! I will keep you and your bird in my thoughts.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Once I spent $4000., over the course of 2 years to save my beloved, Matilda. Her days were numbered from the date she hatched as they genetically altered to get big fast. As a result, their heart cannot support their weight. Given the opportunity, I'd do it all over again.I should add that Matilda was a frying hen.
As your family doesn't understand the connection you have made with this pigeon, I'm very sorry for them. They are missing a lot.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank You all!! 
I work to pay for the care of my birds. I live a very simple life and this is what I do.
Yeah, maybe I am the crazy bird lady. I could be called a lot worse.
Despite the barrage of meds. Craow Dum doesn't seem phased.He acts normal.
Charis you sound like myself


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab 

I refer to myself as "the crazy bird lady" pretty frequently -- it's a title I wear with pride. 

Many people don't understand the bond we form with our birds ... and as Charis says, it's their loss. 

I admire you very much for your devotion to your bird -- and I really hope he gets well, and can live a long full life with you. He clearly has a strong will to live and enjoys being cared for and loved so much.

I feel that every day we have with these wonderful creatures is a blessing.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

In all honesty Pirab, if it helps in any way, and if you have a paypal account, let me know. I would gladly contribute to Craow Dum's medication if you need it. 

My prayers and good thoughts are with you and Craow Dum. I sincerely hope this will finally work and be the miracle we all have been praying for.

Do keep us updated. PM me if you need any help. Hugs!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh gosh! thank you but that is not necessary.  So kind of you to offer but I am OK 
Everything is paid in full already. When I took this bird in, as well as all my other birds, I accepted the responsibilities. 
And yes, no doubt, this pigeon alone has costed me so far, well over $2000.00 in vet bills. :-O You got to make make sacrifices. I do not have cable TV, nor "high speed" internet, or cell phone services, nor do I drink alcohol or go to the theater or anything.
I really do not have any vices, just my birds. I live a very simple life.
As I said before my family and friend think I am loonie because of my obsession with my birds..
I think right now I am just struggling to be able to medicate the bird fully in the month long time frame due to unforseen issues that I am experiencing.right now, everything, so far, is OK.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab, there are many people just like you who would spend the last penny to save the life of a loved one. I am the same, I would do anything to save the life of a bird. Nothing makes me happier than the satisfaction that I was able to give them a new chance at life. I do not care what other people think about me as long as I'm happy in this way. 
For years I take care of sick birds, we have a large flock of birds in the area and always I find sick or injured birds who need help. At beginning my husband did not agree with me, and told me not to interfere with bird life and to let nature take its course. But I could not do that, I would have died to turn back to a bird who needs my help, so I reached a point where I wanted a divorce, I asked him to understand me if not to leave my side. He chose to stay with me, and with time, began to know the birds are, understood that they are not just some birds flying and understand that they are very intelligent creatures. Now we are a united team, we always have several birds with problems at home. It is true that some of our friends do not agree with what we do and criticize us, but as long as we feel so happy we do not care about anything and anyone.
So be strong, trust in yourself and always be with who makes you happy.

I'll give you a quote from John Lennon, I love his words:

“*When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.” *

Dana


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you again for your support and re-assurance.
And of course that silly little pigeon followed up up the stairs looking for me despite what he/she has go to go through with all this medicine business.
It will be interesting to see if this does indeed do the trick.
I also picked up some viro-immune (immune system booster for pigeons with virus's) It is a supplement that I will add to Craow Dum's water after he/she has completed this regiment.
I found a lady today who has many birds who might be of assistance to me as well. I hope we can get it together and she will give me a hand.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm not familiar with viro-immune and couldn't find it through a google search -- do you have a link for that? It sounds like something that would be good to know about. 

Glad to hear that Craow Dum is not minding the medication regimen -- it is amazing what they will tolerate when they are bonded to you. I really think they know we are helping them.

Dana -- I love your quote and also your story ... so glad that your husband came to see the beauty of the birds and is now a part of your team!

I was thinking tonight that my birds give me as much happiness as anything in life ever could -- they are such wonderful, amazing beings. It is especially wonderful when they return the affection and really enjoy contact with you -- that is worth more than any amount of money.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you everyone. This is why I love Pigeon Biz. I find comfort in the kind souls gathering here. Hugs.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Sorry, it is called "viromune'. "an aid in stimulating the immune system & reducing stress"
I bought it online at Foy's pigeon supply company.
www.foyspetsupplies.com
So far, no changes have occurred due to treatment.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the link (I love Foy's! -- I spend too much money with them  ) I really like the Avio products, too. 

It's early in the treatment still -- Dana said it took a number of days to see any progress with her meds regimen -- so hopefully you will see some changes very soon. 

I have your little bird in my prayers!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Dana, I am curious. When the cyst burst did you have to clean the area of debris/pus? And if so, what did you clean it with?
So far, no changes.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The lump is actually getting bigger.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Pirab,
Just wanted to send some encouragement and support your way, you're doing a great job.

Please remember that, unlike Dana's pigeon, your pigeon has the circovirus. So a good result in your situation is keeping the infection from killing your pigeon. So long as she's eating and acting well, you are doing ok considering the presence of the virus.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

She is eating & pooping with no problems.I keep him clean and groomed as well. I am just really hoping for that this lump goes away. I am anxious and so worried about this little pigeon. Seriously, I can not sleep and have wicked headaches.
I am a big time worrier. One day at a time with this little guy.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Pirab,
It would be great if it went down wouldn't it? I wonder if its expanding because its ready to burst, something like that?

I do think its normal to have so much feeling & worry for a bird in your care when you are an empath, which you surely are. It took me around two years and nursing over 50 birds before I could sleep properly when I had a bird in my care. Its just one of those things that perhaps only time and experience can help with. Please be assured you are doing everything within your ability, and you are wonderful person for helping in every way you can.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was wondering the same thing -- if perhaps the cyst is going to burst open? Some bacteria have a die-off reaction, too -- they release toxins when they die. So, perhaps the new meds are finally reaching the root of the problem. Let's hope so!

I think Dana's bird showed some decrease in size and then it dried and fell off -- but infection often finds its way out of the body.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also, I wanted to let you know you are absolutely NOT alone! I worry myself sick (literally) when something is going wrong with my birds ... and I dream about them. That's the nature of love, I think, and sometimes it is terribly scary and very exhausting. 

I'm keeping you and your pigeon in my prayers.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab, I'm sorry to hear that you feel the lump is getting bigger. But still, you have to trust and to give more time that drugs can act. The pus in pigeons is very cheesy consistency (that's why you feel that the lump is so hard) and when an infection is so high the antibiotics sometimes need more time to penetrate the heart of infection. 

After a week I barely saw signs that the lump begin to be slightly lower, but only in the second week I have seen much better results. 
And to be honest I could not see very well that the lump decreases because I was used to seeing every day the pigeon and just when I look at the pictures I realized that the lump really decreases.

Dana


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Just checking in on this thread and wishing the best for Craow Dum --

Yes, the pus in pigeons is almost solid matter. I was surprised when I first learned that. 

I am thinking that maybe the body is pushing the infection outward -- at least that is what I'm hoping when I read this!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Dana, when the cyst burst on your bird did you have to clean the area or debride it? or did you let nature take it's course to heal itself.
I am hoping it will burst outward soon on my pigeon
So far, no change but just more mucus out of his nose.
It's just been a week since I've started the meds and I am just anxious.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I remember you saying the infection was in the bones, so maybe the big lump is just the dead white blood cells from the bones in the head being pushed out, like Minimonkey and Dana said? Could be theres nowhere else for them to go. Ina way, it makes sense the lump would grow as the infection heals...


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab, with the cyst I let the nature take it's course to heal itself, after the cyst fell and remained that hole I put an antibiotic ointment to rush healing.
How it works, seen a decrease? I think that maybe in his case the cyst will fall at some point and will not decrease very much that it is visible. I still hope that will give good results for Craow Dum this meds.

Dana


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

If anything, it seems like the lump is bigger, not smaller.
I did notice a scab on the top of his head. I am hoping that this a 'good thing" and not something he did to himself by scratching.
He still seems unfazed by the whole ordeal.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*latest photo*

I just took this photo of craow Dum. She/he has been on the meds for one full week. I really do not see any change except possibly the lump has gotten bigger


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pirab buk said:


> I
> I did notice a scab on the top of his head.


Just as a guess, if all is going well, you'd expect this pus to find its way out via the skin. Hopefully the little scab is a first sign of this...fingers crossed! 

I'm glad you're able to look past his beak and lumpy head, and assess his behaviour as opposed to his looks. I'm so glad he's acting normal and still eating great


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Aww Craow Dum looks like Elvis in that photo! So cute!!

I can only imagine the pain of the skin around the eyes being stretched. I pray for his fast recovery... we are all rooting for him. Do keep us updated on how the meds progresses.

Let's hope the scab is the first sign of healing! I bet the little pigeon loves you so very much with all his little heart! You two have such incredible bond. All the very best!!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Elvis? LOL -- that's very cute indeed.

So many of us are rooting for this bird! The way I figure it, every day we have with such amazing creatures is a blessing. It's just so hard when they are suffering and we can't do a thing about it 

At least Craow Dum doesn't seem to be in pain -- he's an amazingly brave little guy.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Aww Craow Dum looks like Elvis in that photo! So cute!!


Actually i was thinkin more of Grease - the musical lol.









seriously though,
craow dum is an amazing bird & rallying well acting and behaving normal despite all his problems, so obviously he is happy with you and trusts you.
In situations where one has tried everything else, one really does look for quicker results than may actually happen.
I really hope the meds will start to help, but they may take a little longer due to the severity of the situation.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*latest photo*

Ha! I was actually thinking former President Ronald Reagan
on the serious side, I took these photos this morning of the back of his/her head. I am hoping this is the cyst bursting and not something else. I washed the area with antiseptic. Craow Dum didn't seem to mind. My pet sitter will be helping me with him. Today, I have to pick up the second dosage of his meds (since the pharmacy only compounds two weeks worth at a time since it is highly unstable)


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Now begins to really look like my pigeon's cyst. In the place you see the cracked skin, that was the place where the cyst came out and fell.
And as seen in the pictures, have the same yellow color inside and from his nose flowed a liquid, as you observed at Craow Dum.

Dana


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

My fingers, toes and eyes are crossed in such hope!! All the best for Craow Dum. As Dana has pointed out... it may be (_please let it be_) that Craow is healing in the same way as her lucky pidgie!

Do keep us updated, Pirab!!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Gosh, it does look the same.
I do hope this is a good sign. I cleaned the scab with antiseptic.It is day 10.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its looking good! Thanks for the hopeful photo Pirab- it really does look like the cyst is finding its way out of the body.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This seems really hopeful! I am so hoping this is a good sign!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I keep wondering how this bird is doing....


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*still the same*

We survived the hurricane by the grace of God. No damage. My pet sitter helped me out for the last week with meds.
The lump is getting really big and the skin is pulling away from lump. She/he is still eating and pooping normally. I think I have about 12 more days of meds.I am hoping this is a good sign


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab Buk! So glad to hear that you are okay -- I worried a lot for all my East Coast friends , both real world and online, during this storm.

I think the progress with Craow Dum sounds encouraging -- though I do wonder if you might need an additional couple of weeks with the treatment, if the lump doesn't emerge on its own, soon. 

I'd love to see another picture if you have time to post one any time soon.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also I found the following in an article by the very well respected DVM, Colin Walker. It seems like it might apply (at least in part). I know there is a combined infection going on with your bird, but I do wonder if the cyst itself might be canker related....

*Sinus canker

Sometimes canker organisms can invade the sinuses through the slot in the roof of the mouth and form a canker nodule here. The birds present with a firm swelling across the forehead between the base of the cere and the eyes. Anticanker medication is given for 4 - 5 days to kill the active infection. After this, lancing the area by making an incision in the skin over the most prominent area of the nodule enables the canker nodule to be expressed. Once the nodule is removed, it is best to continue with anticanker medication for several days. Healing is usually uneventful. 
*


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I was wondering about the lancing as well- I've never had to do it, but in theory you'd think it would give quicker relief. Its something I don't know much about though, with pigeons and their harder pus.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> I was wondering about the lancing as well- I've never had to do it, but in theory you'd think it would give quicker relief. Its something I don't know much about though, with pigeons and their harder pus.


Pigeons supposedly don't have pus, it's written in one of Dr Colin walkers texts.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I haven't read the Colin Walker piece in question, but pigeons do have pus, of a sort -- it's an exudate made up of keratin and white blood cells. I don't remember what it's technically called, but it is cheesy looking and almost solid. 

I've opened and cleaned feather cysts before -- (for the record, this isn't really recommended to do on your own, but I had no money at all for a vet at the time.) I was able to clean out all the pus-like-stuff very carefully, and the wound healed very well. The cysts have not returned. Those things are really painful for the bird, and my sweet hen felt better almost immediately after I opened and cleaned them -- she had them on both wings. Most of what I read indicated that they would recur unless the follicle was surgically removed, but that hasn't happened. She gets a little bit of gunk when a new feather comes in, but it usually resolves on its own, or with only a very minor bit of help.

It isn't like lancing a boil or infected area on a human, though .. the material doesn't run out of the wound at all --it needs to be sort of scraped out a bit at a time.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It looks, in both Pirab's and Vulurescu's photos, like the skin is breaking open and the cyst-matter is emerging .. so, effectively, the cyst has lanced itself, I think.

Pirab Buk said the skin was peeling back, which sounds like a good sign. 

The yellow matter in Vulturescu's photo looks for all the world like dried canker material.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pirab, That does Sound good. 

Just regarding ingrown feather follicles, minimonkey do you think theres a chance this lump is caused by that? I haven't seen this in birds, but in a human male I've seen them grow on the back, to the size of a walnut over a couple of years if not lanced. Once emptied, the lump grew back, but took another two years to get to that size.

And that was awesome minimonkey, the way you cleaned out those boils. Did you have to make the initial cut very big?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*latest photo*

Craow Dum has been on the meds now for 20 days. He has been really hungry for some reason as well. I just took this photo of his head. It looks gross but hopefully, the cyst will burst.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Actually, Pirab, this looks really encouraging, based on the pics that Vulturescu posted -- this looks like it is doing exactly what it should be doing! 

I suspect this thing will kind of fall off, in a solid mass -- 

I'm guessing the increased hunger is his body needing extra nutrients to heal, and that also seems like a good sign. 

If I were you, I'd see if you can get another week of meds, at least -- this combination does seem to be working.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella --

I don't think there's much likelihood that this lump is feather related -- this seems likely to have been canker and infection in the sinuses, based on the location and the pressure behind the eye.

But, that said, feather cysts can get big, and very painful. Wing joints are a common location for them ... my bird got them on the elbow joints of both wings.

When I cleaned them out, the incisions were pretty small -- I used a sterile 10 gauge piercing needle to make the incisions (they're very sharp and precise) -- then I pulled most of the feather matter out with needle nose tweezers. What I couldn't pull out with the tweezers, I very gently expressed out by running the flat side of the needle over the area, which pushed out the remaining cheezy matter -- it all came out in a solid lump. 

I cleaned the area with Vetericyn, and then put colloidal silver on a it a couple of times a day for about a week.

There was minimal bleeding, and a bit of biliverdinous bruising (the dark green looking bruising) -- that faded very quickly. Her wings immediately felt better -- the cysts had been very tender to the touch, and it was clearly a relief to her once the matter was cleaned out. 

If I see any matter building up around a new feather, I keep an eye on it, but so far, it has resolved on its own after a day or two.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

You're so brave minimonkey, well done! I'd faint doing that, lol. 

So with this lump, is it just too big to evacuate, or is it more of a case of needing someone very experienced to do it, do you think? Not that I'm recommending that- I'm only wondering.

I agree, it seems to be slowly healing on its own, just like Vulturescu's pigeon. It looks really promising at the moment, i can't wait until it breaks through the skin. Pirab, you are so amazing sticking by this bird. I really think your work is going to pay off soon.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

It does looks promising. I hope the lump gets discharged out soon... the stretching eye looks rather painful and uncomfortable. 

Craow Dum is such a soldier - bless the little fella.

Thank you Pirab for being so patient. Stay strong!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I pick up another dose of the meds tomorrow. I'll continue on as long as it takes (and when I can not longer fill the prescription) It gross but Craow Dum doesn't have a care in the world. She/he likes to be held even if it means "medicine time!"


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Bella -- 

That sort of thing (cleaning out wounds, opening cysts, etc.) doesn't really bother me -- I guess I'm used to doing it. 

This lump is so embedded in the sinus cavity and so near the ocular nerve that the potential for damage to the bird, even by a trained surgeon, seems pretty real if it were removed forcibly. If the nodule is canker (which I rather suspect it is) then it needs to dry up and detach from the skin naturally, or it will cause a lot of tissue damage and bleeding when it's removed. Lancing something like this would probably involve just making a shallow incision in the skin to facilitate the body expressing the nodule on its own -- it sounds like that is what Colin Walker is describing. In this case, the nodule has already broken through the skin without an incision. 


It does look like the body is expressing it -- that dark, yellowish, hard matter is most likely the nodule, and it will probably continue to emerge , until it eventually falls out/off. 

It does look uncomfortable, doesn't it?? -- thankfully, Craow Dum is a real trooper, and seems to be handling it all incredibly well! 

My guess is that the current combination of medications finally penetrated into the area of infection, and allowed it to start healing. 

Thank goodness Vulturescu had seen this problem before, and could recommend this particular drug combo --


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab Buk -- it's amazing how resilient pigeons can be! I'm glad Craow Dum enjoys being held -- that certainly makes this whole process a lot easier and less unpleasant for both of you. I'm also very glad to hear that the bird doesn't seem to be in pain.

I am glad to hear you are getting more of the meds -- hopefully you won't need to give them too much longer. 

I have a very good feeling about this progress!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, and please keep taking pictures of the progress! It's so helpful to have those in an archive -- Vulturescu's pictures helped so much in this case.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I picked up more meds today.I really hope this works. It is very expensive! 
Anyways, I noticed something new today. Around the "lump" is clear liquid oozing out the rim. It's not pus because it is clear. Not sure what it is. Craow Dum still doesn't seem bothered.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It may be lymph fluid/plasma -- my guess is that is a good sign, that the body is attempting to push the nodule out. I wonder if this happened with Vulturescu's bird? 

It also might be mucus from the sinus that hasn't been able to drain out the nasal passages due to the blockage. 

Either way, the fact that it is draining seems like a positive sign. 

I know the meds are terribly expensive -- but it does seem like this is working where nothing else did. You are doing such a heroic job with this pigeon!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I thought it sounded like a positive sign too. I really appreciate these updates and photos pirab-they show her progress so well.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*still leaking*

Yes, the fluid is still leaking around cyst. I thought it could be either plasma or mucus. craow Dum still remains unbothered. Still waiting for it to pop out. It's been 3 weeks since the initial meds were given. I have enough meds now for another 3 weeks.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow, thats great. You can see the lump on its way out of the head , with the pink skin pulling away. It will be a relief when it finally pushes through, though in this photo it looks like its partly through already. Her feathers look lovely too You're doing a wonderful job Pirab!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It does look like the lump has emerged a bit further. I was thinking the same thing, Bella, about the feathers looking quite good. 

It's amazing that Craow Dum continues to handle all of this so well. Thanks so much for the update and the new photo


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*emerges daily*

It looks like a amber marble now. I can almost lift it but do not dare just in case it is attached to something. It is growing and e,ergng daily. Still, I'm not sure if this a good thing or a bad thing. I am anxious for something to happen.


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## Callum Young (Oct 29, 2012)

*Bulging eye*

If he eats well 
keep checking poop


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think this thing is getting very close to falling off! I agree it is best just to let it come out on its own -- it may still be embedded in the sinus somewhat -- and it seems pretty clear the body is pushing it out on its own. 

I really, really think this emerging is a good thing. It appears to be doing exactly the same thing that Vulturescu's bird's lump did. It also sounds a lot like what Colin Walker is describing about sinus canker nodules being expressed. 

Is it still leaking fluid?

Thanks so much for the update and the picture. I can't wait to log in one day and see a picture of Craow Dum without this lump


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Definitely looks like its healing, and at a faster rate now. I agree its looking more and more like a canker nodule now.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

It's getting bigger and bigger with the skin pulling away. She/he is still eats well and the poops are perfect little nuggets. She/he follows me around like a dog.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the update. Craow Dum is so bonded to you -- it's very sweet! 

I can't imagine how uncomfortable it must have been having all that impacted in his/her sinus -- I'm sure it must feel a lot better the more the lump is expressed. 

I have a couple of birds with severe disabilities, and it is truly amazing how well they can adapt to these things. 

I'm guessing that once the nodule falls off, a lot of the nasal discharge/mucus problems might resolve, too.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The nodule is still hard and big. I tried to see if I could 'lift it out' but it is still stuck on tightly.I wash the area hoping it will loosen it.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Waiting for the big moment!

Do you think washing it may dry it out as the water evaporates? Maybe an ointment or oil, also, to soften the surface? 

My former ENT doctor in Texas (Ears, Nose & Throat specialist, HNO in German Hals Nase und Ohren) told me that mixing oil and water to make a miscible solution, would dry the ears out faster. Alcohol evaporates at a higher temp than water, therefore faster, and the oil and alcohol mix would dry faster than just using water in the ears.

Any ideas or opinions from others?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

My guess is that it is probably best to let this happen on its own timeline -- the internal tissue is probably healing while the lump is expressed ... 

I did read a thread a bit ago (on the Pigeon Angels forum) where Spartrix was ground up and made into a paste with some water, and used externally on severe canker, and that seemed to work very well. Charis has mentioned this as well -- I think she's referring to the same bird I read about. That might be worth trying ...?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I'm still not sure if the nodule is a canker nodule. Vet tests came up negative but regardless, The nodule is emerging.It is leaking plasma and tiny bits of blood around the rim. The skin surrounding is tight and dry. I've put warm compresses around area hoping to loosen the hold the skin has on it.
It has now been one month since I started giving Craow Dum the meds.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It looks like canker, visibly, but who knows....? It also fits the description of sinus canker, but I suspect any sort of calcified infection might behave this way. If it is canker, the top portion is dried up at this point, and the tinidazole should be addressing any remaining canker infection deep in the sinus.

Forgive me, I am mostly thinking aloud ... this whole scenario is so puzzling. 

The warm compresses seem like a good idea -- and as long as it continues to emerge, something must be working. The leaking seems like it must just be part of the process. In one of Vulturescu's photos, it looks like there was leakage from her bird's lump, too. 

One thing that works really well on dry skin is coconut oil -- it's antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal, as well as being very moisturizing, and also edible by the birds. I've used it with good success on skin irritations before.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*nodule*

the nodule is emerging more and more.
Coconut oil? That does sound like a good idea. Where would you purchase coconut oil? I suppose a natural grocery store?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow, its looking great! You're doing a champion job there Pirab.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It is looking great -- (well, as great as a huge crater can look coming out of your beloved bird's head.) Craow Dum's eye looks much better though ... less stretched out. His/her nose, tongue and beak look better than in the earlier photos too -- but that may be because you cleaned them more recently. I don't know. Is the nasal discharge any better?

A natural grocery store or health food store should have coconut oil. The extra virgin kind is best. It's great for skin issues -- it has a lot of healing properties, and it soaks into the skin well.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I hope the thing falls out soon. Poor Craow Dum. Such a brave warrior! The human too.

Keep us updated. All the very best!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*nodule*

OMG..As I was cleaning Craow Dum nose and giving her/him meds. the nodule started to lift out.I soaked the area with warm compresses and the entire nodule lifted out. It was so disgusting. I cleaned the area out leaving a huge gap in her/his head. Craow Dum still seemed unfazed! yuck. i have three weeks supply left on the meds. I will email my vet to give her the update.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

OMG its great that it finally came out. Wow what a hole. He is a trooper that looks painful.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I know, it's really nasty.
I just sent photos and info to my vet for advice.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*oops!*

oops! For some reason I deleted the photos, here they are again.
It's gross!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Yaayyyyy !!!!!
So glad that has come out at last, hopefully it will start healing soon & solve a lot of problems. 
Just think how much that has been blocking up inside the head !! Its hardly believable.
Would be good if your vet could arrange analysis of that lump just to confirm exactly what it was.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Whoooohooooooo! So glad that thing finally came out! It's a heck of a lump! You and Craow Dum have both been exceptional throughout this whole ordeal. 

I suspect it'll only get better from here -- holes like that can heal up amazingly fast. Let's hope that this helps clear up some of the ongoing sinus problems.

I agree that an analysis of the nodule would provide a lot of information. 

Thank goodness for Vulturescu and her meds recommedations!!!!


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Oh what a good news! I am so glad that finally the cyst came out! 

At this point the meds can be reduced to 1/2 dose until we are sure the wound continues to heal and does not re infect, so each dose should be reduced to 50%. What you would do now is rinse the hole with normal saline solution and use a bit of antibacterial ointment, Neosporin would be good, and paint a tiny bit with a small brush into the hole and that's it.
I sent you a PM last night and I've explained in detail how to do this.

You did a great job with him, should heal well the hole, like my pigeon Johnny.

Dana


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, thats such awesome news Pirab! You've done an amazing job, thank you so much for the photos and really , really, good news! You made my day, seeing this thing come off finally. I've seen some gruesome wounds, a lot worse that the hole left by the cyst, and they heal up so quickly. Pigeons are amazing healers when it comes to wounds.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*nodule*

I flushed the hole with sterile saline solution plus cleaned area with antiseptic baby solution last night plus I dabbed the rim with neosporin. I also gave him/her some metacam to reduce any inflammation.I wanted to get inside the hole but he was flinching
This morning I cleaned the area again with solution and antiseptic cleaner.(no neosporin this time)There is still crust around the area. I am not sure if it was the left over neosporin residue or mucus or whatever.I took my time to clean the area.
Not to be gross but there was still goopy stuff still on the nodule so I will continue the meds full strength for at at least a week until I see healing from hole to make sure all the 'bugs' are dead.
I haven't heard from my vet yet.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It probably will crust over a bit for the next week or more -- that's pretty normal with wounds of this sort (plasma seeping out as it heals).

I noticed the 'goopy' bottom part of the nodule in the picture you posted. There might still be some active infection in there, so I think it makes sense to keep up the meds dose -- particularly with the circovirus as a part of the picture. 

Please give us update pics on the healing process when you can!

I don't find any of this stuff 'gross' -- I find it fascinating and very informative.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

As a part of Craow Dum's routine, I gently cleaned around the wound again tonight wiping the area with saline solution, antiseptic and neosporin. There was still fluid around the wound. I'm not sure if it is plasma or mucus or infection. The area around the hole is not inflamed.It seems to be puckering a bit which is a good thing.
And yeah, he/she is still a snotty nose kid.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If there's still a lot of mucus from the nose, it seems likely the infection hasn't completely cleared .... though I suppose the virus itself could be responsible for the mucus. 

Also, is his eye still looking stretched out? If so, I'd guess there's probably another plug of this stuff that needs to emerge (eek). 

Glad to hear the sides of the wound are puckering, and that it isn't inflamed -- that's good news.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The hole seems to be closing. I didn't need to clean it today but i gave him metacam to reduce any inflamation (that I couldn't see)
Yes, he is still snotty. I am going to continue on with the full dose of meds. The hole was quite big. I scraped as much stuff out as I could. It is possible there was still stuff in there that I couldn't get. I am hoping the meds will kill off the rest. 
The eye is still stretched but that could be because it was a long time that it was subjected to stretching so it will take a while to go back.This has been a year long battle so I am pleased that at least that nodule grew and popped off.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You have done...are doing such a commendable job...never giving up when most would have. The world needs more humans like you.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Oh Pirab... I'm in tears! I'm so thankful the nodule thingy is gone. I would suggest continuing the meds until you're very sure it's over. You both are such warriors and champions. Very, very inspiring. Thank you to Dana too for the meds recommendation. Please keep us updated and with photos too. We are all in this together for Craow Dum's healing journey.

If there is anything we can help you with, please don't be shy to let us know.

BIG HUGS!!!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*white plaque*

I've been continuing on however something 'new' threw me off.
Craow Dum was still snotty and his/her eye is still bulging. 
This morning I cleaned around the 'hole" on the head and then checked the area with a flashlight. 
Fluid was merging out. I cleaned it and noticed some gunk and ingrown hairs(feathers).
I Cleaned out still another hard bit of debris plus gooey ingrown hairs. I thought this would do the trick.
I peered in again to notice an inside wall near the eye had a white plaque with inflammation. I wanted to see if the plaque would come off with a light scraping but instead it started bleeding! I managed to stop the bleeding with a Q-tip. I'm not sure what this white plaque is. Seriously it looks like a canker sore (ulcer) like the kind humans get in their mouth.
I am wondering if I had pulled the nodule off too soon. I think at this point I just need to carry on with the full treatment. I hope and pray the meds do the trick. What ever this is poor Craow Dum is still a mess.
Any thoughts of what this white plaque is?


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## Callum Young (Oct 29, 2012)

I,ll look it up for you


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

I am wondering if you let it breath a little if that would help. I know that you are putting antibiotics in the wound and that should be great as a moist wound heals better. It allows the edges to seal better. But it also needs to breath a bit. Maybe if you gentle clean with say hydrogen peroxide(non irritating and can be swallowed) let it sit for say a half hour then do you routine of antibiotic in the wound.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*canker?*

I am starting to seriously think this may be canker (because the fact it bled when I touched it) perhaps I should leave it alone to let it breathe and hopefully "something" will happen. Either it dries up or another nodule forms and falls off.
I emailed my vet (again) with the story. She may be on vacation this week since it is a holiday week.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab --

I don't know if it is possible to get a photo of the plaque, but that would be really helpful. 

I really, really suspect this is canker (trichomoniasis) in the sinus and the upper orbital chamber (the eye socket.) I know the vet tests came back negative for canker, but this is behaving for all the world like trich. (Canker will bleed if you try to remove it while it's still attached.) 

I don't think you removed the nodule prematurely -- that thing really needed to come out, and it was almost completely hardened-- but I do think there's probably more where that came from -- my guess is that it is chambered above the eye, and is growing through the wall of the sinus. 

If this IS canker, then it will continue to grow until the infection is wiped out completely. 

Where were the ingrown feathers? Can you tell where on the head they became ingrown? (and how?) When feathers become ingrown, they cause feather cysts ... I've dealt with those before -- they fill up with a cheesy, white gunk that is nearly solid (it's keratin and white blood cells). 

Can you tell where the fluid is coming from?

There are a couple of old threads in the archive, I think, about really embedded canker ... I'll see if I can find them for you.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You posted while I was writing -- and yes, I do think canker is a real possibility here. 

It can get embedded deep within the tissues, and can be very hard for medication to penetrate into it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This thread (on the pigeon angels forum) is well worth reading. I don't think there's any prohibition to linking to another pigeon forum, particularly since there are a lot of members here who also contributed over there....

http://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/...ssing-eye?highlight=squeaker+with+missing+eye

It shows the recovery of a bird with canker that had grown in the eye socket.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Here's a good description of canker and its progression:

Pathology

The pathology associated with trichomoniasis in doves and pigeons usually involves young birds and consists of the formation of caseous necrotic masses in the upper digestive tract and occasionally in the viscera. The first (acute) lesions appear in the mouth, pharynx, esophagus, and crop and consist of inflammation and development of creamy-white, wet, and sticky exudate on the mucosal surface (lining). The lesions progress to small, well-defined raised yellow-white ulcers. As the disease progresses further (chronic), the mucosal lesions become yellow in color, larger in size, hard, caseous coalesced masses that may invade the sinuses of the skull, extend externally to the beak and eyes, penetrate through the base of the skull into the brain and penetrate the viscera causing necrotic areas in the liver, spleen, pancreas, heart, lungs and air sacs. 

I'm going to give you the link to the website, but BEWARE OF A VERY GRAPHIC IMAGE on the page of a necropsied bird. 

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27288--,00.html


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Here is another thread worth reading:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/youngster-lost-tip-of-upper-beak-to-canker-29797-2.html


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

It is very possible it is canker but the meds should knock it out. The fluid oozing from the head is mucus much like what is coming from her/his nose. I clean it off spreading the feathers away from opening. I just got an email from my vet stating she would like to see him/her. I think with the hole open like this it would be more conclusive for her to get an accurate tissue sample.
That poor pigeon looks God awful but still eats fine and seems to be not bothered.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank God for all you folks. Friends and family think I am ridiculous so I don't say anything any more about it.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirab, if you will continue with the full doses is ok and the meds are quite strong and should be able to handle any infection issues. Just keep rinseing the exudate that is weeping with the sterile saline and also keep cleaning the wound as you have been doing and paint the Neosporin right into the wound. 
And please to not use hydrogen peroxide as it can damage the healing process by damaging new forming tissue!

Dana


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Glad you heard from the vet -- I'll be very interested to hear what further testing reveals. 

You would certainly think that these meds would be enough to handle this if it is canker -- the thing is, when a mass of infection is inside the body, it needs to find a way out through the skin. Pidgey explains that really well in this quote

"Anyhow, always remember this mantra: "avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." That means that they have a difficult, if not impossible, time of turning dead or dying tissue into something that can be easily carried away by the lymph system--that's why those spent leukocytes just amass into lumps and buttons. If the bird can't literally eject them right through the skin like this one's been attempting to do, they end up forming something approaching rocks inside the body."

That's another thread that is really useful to read -- this bird had a huge canker nodule on its neck, growing out from the crop, through the tissue. It's actually a two part thread, but the first part is here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/mystery-swelling-on-neck-42004-3.html?highlight=lump+neck

In the second thread, it is finally determined that this was, indeed, canker.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

The possibility of this being Canker fits in with my experiences with viruses too, where the canker tended to grow huge cysts about the face, and also it tended to reappear after a course of canker meds, sometimes bigger than ever. When there was pox going around earlier in the year, the canker cysts sometimes covered most if the head in some birds.

I lost a couple of these birds shortly after the canker meds stopped, I think because the canker regrowth was so intense it caused internal blockages. If I could do it all over again, I would have found the safest canker med (not sure which is safest off the top of my head) , and kept the birds on it for the duration of the Virus


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think Ronidazole is usually considered the safest of the canker meds. From what I understand of Circo, it's chronic... so this may be a matter of continually keeping up with periodic canker treatment, if this is indeed canker.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*not canker*

I just got back from the vet. 
The vet cleaned out the hole with a flush and took samples of the "pus"/mucus, blood and white plaque inside the walls of the hole.
Canker is ruled out from the tests done in the office.
She said to continue on with the remaining meds while we wait from the lab results of what that white plaque is. She was glad we had access inside the sinus chamber to get a good couple of samples but she fears this may not be a good outcome. It is possible it is cryptococcus-which is very bad.
In the meantime, she had added a chlorahexadine rinse to keep the hole clean.
Now, we just carry on and wait for the lab results.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm so glad you at least have tests on the way, and that canker has been ruled out. Also glad you have the Chlorhexidine solution. 

I've never dealt with cryptococcus. I know it's fungal -- and that it can invade the central nervous system in humans.... it often grows in pigeon droppings, but I gather it's pretty uncommon for it to infect birds directly (their droppings just act as a growth medium to environmental fungi.) Of course, with an immunocompromised bird, the stakes are different. 

How is the wound looking inside today?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*not canker*

Right now, I just don't want to make things worse. I am trying to be careful with the chlorahexidine especially since he can not close his eye all the way due to the swelling. Stuff keeps coming out of the hole. I clean it twice a day. I am not sure when I will get the lab results-especially since thursday & friday are holidays this week. I hope in a week, at least.
The poor little thing follows me around despite all the digging & all the medicine-giving ordeal


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps for the update Pirab, I really appreciate it! 

I have not seen cryptococcus in before , so I was inspired to read about it. It looks like its extremely rare. The medicine Amphotericin (not fluconazole) is the antifungal medicine recommended for it. So there's definitely hope, if thats what the poor pigeon is dealing with now. 

Poor little thing, I am glad to hear she's in good spirits. I hope you are well !


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear his/her spirits seem good despite it all -- and clearly that bird is really bonded to you

What kind of stuff is coming out of the hole? I wonder where it is coming from/being produced... It seems like it is probably a good thing that it is coming out, anyhow. 

Does it appear to be draining out through the white plaque you saw earlier?

I think Amphotericin B is given by IV for severe fungal infections -- I've run across that in my reading on aspergillosis. 

I don't think I've ever even read about a case of cryptococcus.... pigeons get asperigillosis periodically, but cryptococcus seems to be reasonably rare.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I hope you get the results soon, too. It sounds like Craow Dum isn't feeling too bad, even with all the problems, and that's a good sign..

I do know that fungal infections can be pretty localized -- they can infest just the sinus or orbital cavity, for example -- and in those cases they are a lot easier to treat than if they are disseminated.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*still not sure what it is*

Once we get the lab results we will know what we are dealing with.
The hole on the head is basically like a fistula. I took a syringe and sucked stuff out(blood, mucus and cheezy stuff YUCK!). OMG it is really gross what is going on in the poor birds sinus cavity. I try to flush with the chlorahexidine but he flinches. I get some in but not a true "flush". He can't close his eye so I am really afraid of getting some in (even through I cover his eye with a hankie)
Just keeping him clean and well fed.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Everything is still the same. I've been using a syringe to suck the stuff out of the hole. Sadly, I can see more cheezy gross stuff and mucus inside. I try to use the chlorahexidine with a q-tip and use just a little in the hole because he will flinch getting it all over his face despite holding a hankie over his face. I am still using the four punch meds but I do not think it is doing any good right now. I am anxious to hear from the vet with the results.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its great that you got those tests done, Pirab; I look forward to hearing the results as well. If there is a fungal infection, it will be a relief to get some antifungal medicines into him.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am also looking forward to the results -- this is one crazy-resistant infection, whatever it is. Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I am hoping the best for both of you. It's so heartwarming that the little fella follows you around. He knows you are doing the best for him to recover.

Your dedication is the stuff of legends! HUGS!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Since it is a big holiday here in the states (especially in the NE area) I have to wait on lab results and correspondence with my vet. I am still continuing on with cleaning and medicating as usual.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*back to square one*

I just got off the phone with my vet about the lab results.
It is and has been a bacteria infection all along. The problem is that it is deep in the bone and for some reason all the antibiotics (over a year long period) had no significant effect. I asked the vet from any of the findings what the bacteria is and she said from work done a while back klebsiella showed up.
Surgery may be an option to remove the diseased bone but it is very risky and still it may not solve the problem.
Also another thing would be to do another culture after the (present) antibiotics have left the system to see if there is other bacteria present......but again, it appears the bone is diseased and the bacteria is encapsulated


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm so sorry to hear this -- that really isn't good news.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

> I asked the vet from any of the findings what the bacteria is and she said from work done a while back klebsiella showed up.


Hmm.. I wouldn't take those old results too much to heart. 

Basically what the Vet said is she didn't find any fungal infection, and she wasn't able to determine any new bacterial infection because the pigeon has been on meds. 

From what you said, she only mentioned the klebsiella because she found it before, but she didn't find it in the most recent test. Her Conclusion is that klebsiella is deep in the bone, but another possible conclusion is that the meds worked to clear the klebsiella. I mean if she could find klebsiella before, why can't she find it now? I personally think its possible the new meds have suppressed or eliminated bacterial infection and thats why no bacteria was found in the tests. 

You might want to double check thats what she said- that she found no new bacteria in the tests. Because if thats the case, the news is somewhat positive. 

The only problem is she doesn't really know what's causing the discharge in the hole. Also, i don't think she is very positive about pigeons. She has made some pretty wild and pessimistic assumptions without tests to back them up, almost as though she's trying to steer you towards euthanasia. I would look for another Vet myself, as I don't think she really knows birds.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was reading that as meaning the vet knew she couldn't culture anything with the bird on meds, so she was making a clinical judgment as to this being a bacterial bone infection - ? I could be wrong about that. 

In any event, Pirab is none the better off for having the tests done, at this point -- and that's really unfortunate.

Pirab -- do you know what it is that caused your vet to think the infection was in the bone?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I guess I'm a tad wary because so many Vets look at feral pigeons as pest birds.

So I would rely more on actual test results than the personal opinion of a vet unless I knew them very well and trusted in their compassion for feral pigeons. I had some very bad experiences with Avian vets and ferals to make me think this way 

Anyway I am sorry that the tests didn't show any clear results, but at least we know its not that rare i and difficult to cure fungal disease the Vet thought it was.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I believe Pirab said this is a top avian surgeon, in a former post -- but your point is well taken regarding vets and pigeons in general -- especially rescued ferals.

It does sound like this vet has done everything she can think to do to treat Craow Dum... but that still doesn't mean that she isn't missing something. This is a really unusual case.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, I didn't realise she was a top avian surgeon. Thanks Mini!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I am still hoping there is a way for Craow Dum to recover. If Dana's pigeon healed, why not Craow?

The effects seems the same. The lump came off after the same meds and dosage. The pictures look awfully similar... what is missing here?

Is it just the mucous that won't stop coming out? How does the hole look like? How is Craow doing? Still in pain? Chirpy as ever? If science can't solve it, what about alternative healing - crystal, herbal, etc?

I am getting desperate for Craow to get better. The poor dear. I wish I could give you a real hug, Pirab. Thank you for all that you do. HUGSSSS! I'm never gonna stop praying for the little one's recovery. Don't lose hope.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*bone infection*

I think the biggest difference between Dana's pigeon and Craow Dum's infection is that with Craow Dum it is a deep bone infection.
The infection from the cytology reports is in the bone.The soft tissue are was inflamed due to the infection in the bone.
The bone needs to be debrided of infectious material. Unfortunately, I do not know where the infection begins and ends. My vet thought about doing surgery but was afraid of how much bone (skull) is involved.
She has been pretty good about trying different things.
This morning, I noticed the bone were his nose is was protruding out more. When I did my morning routine of cleaning his face I noticed this was loose and will soon break off.
Is this a good thing? I really do not think so. To me it shows the infection is spreading.
I took this photo of Craow Dum this morning so you see the bone bit. I fear the next pic will be the bone bit missing but God knows how much of it will break off and what will be the remaining.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The poor pigeon looks just miserable. It shows in the eyes. My heart goes out to you both. I know how emotionally painful this must be for you.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*bone infection*

That bone tip is ready to fall off. Yes, it breaks my heart to look at him. He is most loving sweetest pet.
I am at the point where now there is a fine line between doing everything possible with experimenting with all kinds of medicines/ procedures or am I just torturing the poor creature?


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

mix 1 Tbsp refined coconut oil or the thickest part of coconut milk (don't shake the can)
with 2 small pinches of pumpkin pie spice.
(finely ground oatmeal can also be added, add a pinch or 2 & mix to peanut butter thickness)

warm slightly and mix well (no microwave). use this as a salve on the exposed area.. if he eats some of it, it will assist with some of his tummy complications and it will draw out some infection... it will never be enough now... but it should ease him.

when you feel it's time, don't feed or water for 24-30 hours, then give 1-2 asprin and water a regular amount just before bed. He just won't wake up. No suffering.

I'm so sorry that this has happend... your efforts have helped us all gain more education.
We all hoped your efforts would be finally rewarded... I'm so so sorry.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

He still follows me around, eats well, poops well, loves a cuddle and doesn't even mind getting the snots removed from his face/mouth/nose.
He is a gift from God.
I wish I could do more but I truly think this was the last train at the station, so to speak.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Sassypants said:

"If science can't solve it, what about alternative healing - crystal, herbal, etc?"

Honestly, this is a train of thought to which I subscribe as well. I've healed myself substantially using alternative methods when science failed.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh God, Don't give Aspirin to `put him to sleep'. Letting him sip on water with 1-2 aspirin tablets in it may not kill him even, but cause massive internal damage and leave him in a lot of pain. And they can regurgitate the `poison' , also leaving the bird in pain and internally damaged. Geese!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Dovelady -- I swear by coconut oil for so many things. It is excellent for skin issues, and it is highly medicinal against bacteria, fungi, and viruses. 

Pirab, my heart goes out to you and Craow Dum. As long as he's still showing an interest in life, I'd do whatever I could to keep him going. 

I don't know a lot about bone infections, but I'm wondering if perhaps the bone breaking off IS a good thing ... it would seem that the infection would need to come out of the body one way or another, and that exposed piece of bone is undoubtedly already mostly dead ... 

I hope it isn't painful when it happens.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

And wow, that hole in his head has healed up a great deal! Whatever else may be going on, this bird's body is still trying to heal itself. I hope you don't give up yet, though I totally understand and respect that decision if you decide it's time.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Has your vet considered acyclovir, at all? It is an antiviral -- and it has been used with Circo with some success. If you could get the viral load down, it might be enough to allow the bacterial infection to clear.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pirab buk said:


> He still follows me around, eats well, poops well, loves a cuddle and doesn't even mind getting the snots removed from his face/mouth/nose.
> He is a gift from God.
> I wish I could do more but I truly think this was the last train at the station, so to speak.


Hi Pirab,

It must be so hard to be close to one another , knowing he might not make it. Its one of the hardest things. You have a nurse's heart & spirit.

To me, the way you describe Crow is he's still enjoying life, and he isn't suffering. His chances don't look good, but he still has a life that is valuable to him, and valuable to you. Euthanizing is meant to be to end suffering when there is no hope...so I don't know what to say.

What about waiting until the meds have cleared, then do the tests in 2 weeks. And perhaps look into ways to boost the immune system in the meantime? 

PS. I was wondering, do you notice any particular food cravings with Crow? SOme of my wild birds with bad infections from string injuries and feet torn off get massive cravings for protein rich food. I always wondered if there is a correlation between protein (amino acids?) and healing infection.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab -- I looked at your art, and it's beautiful. The Holy Pigeon is definitely expressed by Craow Dum. It's sad that he is such a martyred saint.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Pirab you are the saint. Oh my you are amazing. Your buddy is amazing. Dont let anybody else tell you what to do. Let your heart to what needs to be done. I will never be as strong as you and your buddy. Bless you


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I did want to mention that diseased/dead bone does sometimes slough off, and that isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it is part of the healing process.


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

to be honest.. I read this whole thing.
WOW.... alot to say about the particulars.

But..... on the line of natural methods I hope I can be of assistance.

Yes this did sound like canker... but DAILY growth?... pox does this... hardcore.
Once the virus gets into an inclosed space it can cause bacteria infections too, via complications and festering in a hot space like the head. (had this issue myself but was lucky that the growth came out of the nose... after about 6-8 weeks I was able to loosen it.... his forhead was swelling but after I removed the lump it started to drain, smaller pieces came out, and after a week he was fine and recovering nicely.

the weepy stuff is still good.. it is cleaning this naturally, if not gross-ish.
A weak solution of 50/50 peroxide/water will clean but not damage tissue.

Recommended: B(all)+E+A vitamins like crazy.
Infection/hurting helpers: Ginger & garlic in his water, or arnica if you can get it.

mix 2 tsp coconut oil with 2-3 drops teatree oil and enough fine ground oatmeal to make a thick paste. 
pack any open wounds with it and change every 12 hours.
Use a seasalt saline wash every 24-36 hours or so.



I was not trying to imply to give up... but when you know the "quality of life" has reached a point, then yes, sometimes being human is also being humane.

I know the asprin seems harsh, but done like I described, there is no throwing up or horrible moments, they just go to bed like normal and then don't wake up. ... I'm sorry but unless there are better methods you guys can suggest then please let us know... because we all know there is no reason to give $100 to a vet when it is not painless from them either! it's an overdose to the liver!! it hurts mare than anything!!!

please realize that sometimes knowing when you are just causeing more trouble then you are curing, can be the moment of clarity for humanity.


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Oh God, Don't give Aspirin to `put him to sleep'. Letting him sip on water with 1-2 aspirin tablets in it may not kill him even, but cause massive internal damage and leave him in a lot of pain. And they can regurgitate the `poison' , also leaving the bird in pain and internally damaged. Geese!


I did not say to sip on aspirin water.
please read my post carefully.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Tea tree oil is toxic to birds -- there have been members here who had major problems after using it. 

I know some people still use it, and have had no problems with it, but I wouldn't let it near any bird of mine. 

Do you happen to have any pictures of your pox bird, Dovelady? I'm glad to hear that bird healed up well.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dove Lady said:


> I did not say to sip on aspirin water.
> please read my post carefully.


 My issue is you are pushing for euthanasia, and your suggesting using Aspirin instead of the Vet.

When I was inexperienced, I thought this was the way to go as well, but several very experienced members explained the horrible internal damage that occurs due to Aspirin overdose.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*diseased bone tip*

I was really depressed yesterday over my bird.
I needed to sleep on it to figure out what to do.
As usual, I cleaned his face and suctioned the gunk out of the hole on his head.
The bone tip is mushy and will fraction off. It is not loose enough for me to do it and I don't want to cause more harm.
I do wonder if I comes off if the vet can then curettage that exposed area enough to reduce pathogen enough for then, a new antibiotic could work.
I guess I am just thinking out loud.


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## Callum Young (Oct 29, 2012)

It might work


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thankfully my husband is fine with any choice I make whether I just let nature take it's course with me just giving palliative care or another visit to the vet with another test and a try a new (experimental) antibiotic.


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## Pigeonfriend (Aug 14, 2009)

I have never been in your situation, and I think you have done so much for this bird - it's amazing! But to me, the bird sounds like a fighter, and I would keep fighting with him.


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## Callum Young (Oct 29, 2012)

Yes be faithful in your pigeon


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, I am glad you have your husband's support -- that really makes a difference!

This whole situation is so heartbreaking. I am thinking that the bone tip sloughing off may be a good thing -- the infection needs to find a way out. 

I'm thinking out loud, too -- and this is way beyond any expertise I might have with these matters -- but my prayers are with you and your bird.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*update*

I've received all kinds of wonderful and helpful suggestions.Thank you EVERYONE!
I've given this a great deal of thought of what to do at this stage of the game.
Right now., Craow Dum seems A-Ok all things considered.Eating, pooping and chasing me around.
I am continuing to clean him twice a day and suction stuff out of the stoma on his head. No inflammation or visible infection that I can see just an ongoing mucus issue.The bone on his face appears to be protruding more. It feels 'soft' like rotten wood and still mobile. Once that breaks off (something I will not do in fear it will splinter and crack internally) I will get my vet's advice on next course of action, if any.
I do not feel comfortable trying new meds right now when this obvious rotten bone issue is blocking everything. I am afraid of poisoning him and taxing his liver 
And at the same time, if and when the piece falls off I will get a better view of how deep and progressive this bone rot is. Perhaps once it comes off something topical can be applied(?). One can be hopeful.
I will keep you all updated and thank you ALL for your thoughts, prayers and suggestions.


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> My issue is you are pushing for euthanasia, and your suggesting using Aspirin instead of the Vet.
> 
> When I was inexperienced, I thought this was the way to go as well, but several very experienced members explained the horrible internal damage that occurs due to Aspirin overdose.


I'm not pushing for it.. in fact I HATE the idea... but being humain is part of being human. Other animals of his own kind would have killed him ()horribley too!).. it is nature to keep the group strong.

As modern humans we try to help, as we have compassion... but where is line of compassion/ego/just plain "i've tried so long I can't give up"?
If we were still wild as we once were, we'd be stuck on an iceflow and shoved off, or just left behind.....

It is truly based on "quality of life".... if the little guy as still eating drinking, pooping, walking whatever... he's fine... but what if he was in pain and you could hear it? screaming groaning whimpering.. like a dog or cat would you let him be in visable pain? 

I'D want to be put down if I was slowing and painfully dieing... but hey.. that's a whole new debate.


Go to a vet.. spend the money on a very painful shot right to the liver. I saw my rat get put down and the scream she let out lets me know that the vet is not always the "best" choice.

There are several methods that are not as "horrible" as asprin.. but mercy is just that, mercy. I have not had to put anyone down... I will always do everything in my power!! They have ALWAYS gone on their own if they were bad.... But I still go by "Quality of Life" and always will when making my choices


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Tea tree oil is toxic to birds -- there have been members here who had major problems after using it.
> 
> I know some people still use it, and have had no problems with it, but I wouldn't let it near any bird of mine.
> 
> Do you happen to have any pictures of your pox bird, Dovelady? I'm glad to hear that bird healed up well.


that's why it's "watered down" by mixing with many things.. if you are afraid of it, use the 50/50 peroxide and water to flush infection.. but I was told you guys won't do that either! (Although vet reccomended and i have used on several birds hit my hawks... one missing all skin/feathers on the right from neck to vent along the breast, the other missing skin feather and muscle from the shoulder blades .. I believe taken right to the ground and ripped at!!)

No pics of the pox, but not as bad as the poor little splayed devil in that pic! But the WHOLE flock felt like absolute CRAP!!!

My boss said to put the 2 worse ones down.... I refused... and hid them from him. 2 weeks later they were both fine!  the pox FINALLY turned black but I had to remove the scabs myself as they were wrapped right around the feather shaft and causeing secondary infections!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I clean the hole (stoma) with chlorahexidine that the vet prescribed.
Craow Dum is not suffering. He seems happy and normal other than how he looks (no beak and bulging eyes) and the fact he has a snotty-nose.
He is on the chubby side as far as weight goes. He climbs the stairs looking for me as well.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Pirab -- I think you are making the best choice for Craow Dum. He really is that pigeon in your beautiful painting. From your descriptions it seems like he isn't suffering. 

There were some old threads on here at one time about bone infections... I'll see if I can dig them up from the archives.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I am still working with the vet on next course of action. We are still waiting for that rotten piece to come off. Once that is off, hopefully we will have a better idea of the bacteria we need to attack. right now, it is like a stone stuck in your shoe causing a blister. Once the "stone" is gone, hopefully we will have a clear shot of cleaning up the exposed area.
BTW Just for my own knowledge. What is a pigeon's normal life span?
I thought they can live to 12 years. My husband says they only live for three years. Three years is really a short life


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

They can live for 10-15 years.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

15 or even more years isn't unusual if a bird is in a domestic care situation. We had a ring neck dove that was 30 years old when she died! Pigeons can live that long, too, though it's a bit rare to make it all the way to 30.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

pirab buk said:


> I am still working with the vet on next course of action. We are still waiting for that rotten piece to come off. Once that is off, hopefully we will have a better idea of the bacteria we need to attack. right now, it is like a stone stuck in your shoe causing a blister. Once the "stone" is gone, hopefully we will have a clear shot of cleaning up the exposed area.
> BTW Just for my own knowledge. What is a pigeon's normal life span?
> I thought they can live to 12 years. My husband says they only live for three years. Three years is really a short life


3 years is about average for a feral pigeon, given the dangers of predators, vehicles and disease and the fact that even a minor injury can down them and leave them more exposed.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Budgies lifespan averages only 6 years old> Think this averages in tumors, poor diet, and accidents. I have a budgie that is 12 years old. I had a few live past that as well.
I sort of figured pigeons could live to a ripe old age.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Another thought, Dana suggested I try clavavox for treatment.
I think I may be able to get it online. Have any of you folks living in the US able to do that?
thoughts?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

No dice, you need a prescription in order to get any medicine (online or otherwise) 
As Mel gibson siad in the movie E"dge of Darkness" -"everything is illegal in Massachusetts"
he is right...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pirab buk said:


> No dice, you need a prescription in order to get any medicine (online or otherwise)
> As Mel gibson siad in the movie E"dge of Darkness" -"everything is illegal in Massachusetts"
> he is right...


You can get it here without a prescription.

http://www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/p-293-noroclav-50mg.aspx


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Pirab!

You probably realise, but Clavamox is amoxicillin with Clavulanic Acid .

When we spoke about you using Amoxicillin on the first couple of pages of this thread, you decided against it...was that because you'd already tried amoxicillin? Just wanted to be sure.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks again for linking to that website, Charis -- it is a wonderful source for the harder-to-find meds!!!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I used injectable doxyxcline.
I just talked to my vet. The diseased bone has to fall off first to be cleaned out. It is the irritant. Once that sloughs off then we can do the next course of action. I am flushing and cleaning the area. We have used and tried a whole truck load of antibiotics for a long time (I'll have to dig out all the vet records to list what I have used) so I think this is the best course of action to clean the area out before, during and after the diseased bone falls off.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That was my gut feeling on this -- that the bone falling off was actually a good thing -- but I've never dealt with a bone infection before. Birds don't have an enzyme that allows their bodies to liquefy and flush out necrotic tissue, so it needs to emerge out through the skin, orifices, etc. in order for the body to be rid of it. 

I know that Pidgey, one of our old members, had experience with them, but he doesn't post here any more, I don't think ... there may be info in the archives somewhere about this, but I wasn't able to find the threads. 

I do know that with bone infections, the main problem is penetrability into the bone, which is hard to achieve. 

It may be that the bone sloughing off is a result of the recent course of antibiotics, and that this is the result of the area healing.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

As the vet explained to me in depth that the rotten bone is a barrier preventing the meds to get at the the (major) infection. (Like having a stone in your shoe)
I think the situation regarding the cyst on Craow Dum's head was something all together different and that is why that combo of meds worked.
Craow Dum still seems to be fine and the vet has been monitoring his condition.(thankfully)


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Good news that the little guy is fine. Hopefully the bad bone fall off soon.

His head looks so much better now. 

You truly are amazing, Pirab.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Just an update.
No real changes.My vet is just monitoring the condition.
That silly little pigeon just carries on. I found him upstairs pecking on the keyboard on my computer.As always, I clean him twice daily and he has a great appetite.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I was just wondering how he was doing -- thanks for the update. 

The keyboard pecking is adorable. I'm glad to hear he appears to be feeling reasonably well, and continues to enjoy life.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

How is Craow Dum? And the lovely Pirab? I'm thinking of you both... and hope you are well.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

He is still the same. No better and no worse.I still clean him twice a day and he still eats well etc... He follows me upstairs and waits for me sitting on the keyboard of my computer. He's such a darling. He so sweet, loyal and gentle.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Glad to know at least he is ok... do post a picture of him... I miss him 

Are you still treating him, or have stopped the meds? And how are you? Hope the human is well too, and happy.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

He is not on any meds. They only additional treatment I am doing right now is using a humidifier since it is very cold and dry right now in the house.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*bulging bone bit*

The bone bit on his nares area is protruding more and more. I believe what ever is in his sinus (most likely another granuloma) is pushing this rotten bone out. The fistula on his head is oozing mucus as a drainage point. I think this might be all be a good thing .If another granuloma forms it will fall off like before opening the sinus up again pushing the rotten bone bits out. This will make an area for the vet to have access to clean the area out properly(finally)
He still eats, drinks, poops and follows me around normally.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*new pic*

New photo of craow Dum


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you for the update and picture. I hope the path to recovery is closer. Take care.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I'll try to post a better photo. The bone on his nose is protruding more and more everyday. He looks like a unicorn. I know it is not his beak or even a part of it.There is absolutely no upper beak at all. It is just odd. The diseased bone is pushing it's way out. It is really very mobile but I am waiting for it to fall out itself without any help because I am afraid of fracture lines..He functions "normally" other than that.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Today the bone tip fell off. He looks really gross and weird but cleaner.I am guessing from the looks of things perhaps more bone will push it's way out of the opening on his nares. he had looked like an unicorn and now he looks really like a beakless pigeon


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*download new photos*

I've enclosed (finally figured it out) two comparison photos of the "unicorn like" bone protrusion on his nares and what he looks like now when it fell off.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

He's still doing a OK. Matter of fact his appetite has increased that I almost can't keep up refilling his bowl! I think because he gets a fraction of what is in the bowl down his throat so I have to continually refill it. Plus he is getting fussy and doesn't want to eat seeds/pellets with snot on it! (He gets seeds stuck all over her snotty nares after he eats!Some of those seeds fall back in the bowl and it grosses him out.) It's quite a sight.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Aww how cute is the little pampered prince! Grossing out with his own snot! So cute! I have no idea what the unicorn bone means, or how it is progressing but I do hope and pray that he's recovering somehow.

Thank you for the updates and the pictures! His fans are always rooting for him!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

It's the oddest thing. He is happy with a big personality despite this grotesque handicap.
He'll come over to me when his face is all snotty waiting for me to clean him up!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Today the last bit of the diseased bone fall off.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

He does look cute, in his own way! He looks cool!

I would add the appellation "Scoop" to his name, for fun!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The area where the bone fell off is healing and closing up. The bone didn't not belong there, found it's way out and now it is gone. The area above his eye is still bulging with a another granuloma with fluid (mucus) is still draining from on top of his head but at least one issue has remedied itself. I still clean him twice a day and he loves his bath and food.
Ha! Larry you think he looks cute? OMG he is as ugly as sin! 
But I still love him


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*latest photos*

I took these photos this morning of Craow Dum. The area on the nares where the bone was is healed over. He still has the bulging eye as you can see. I suspect that granuloma will eventually emerge and pop out like it happened before.
He is doing OK


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

My wife Hilde says he looks like *"a happy bird"*. "He has a very nice expression." "You wouldn't think he was sick."


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

My vet said the same thing.
She is amazed that he appears to be healthy (other than his beak situation)


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I still have to clean him twice a day plus suction mucus out of a fistula on top of his head. The area is clean without infection or redness. The pigeon will come over to me almost as if he wants it done. It's really kind of gross how when I suction the stuff out that his head will actually deflate. His sinus area is deformed along with his mouth, nares and beak area so I think this is just business as usual. My vet thinks this is the best thing to do because surgery is too risky.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't think he is ugly either, Thank you for your awesome care of him and your continued updates.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, I love this bird! That second photo you posted is so cute -- with him looking straight at the camera.

The fistula you mention -- is that where the granuloma emerged before, or is this something different? It'd be great if a second one emerged and relieved that pressure behind his eye, which looks uncomfortable. 

He's such a sweet, lovely little fellow! I am glad to hear he's holding up okay. Give him a snuggle for me


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The fistula is basically an opening left over from when he had that granuloma last fall. It's a small opening on his head. I clean the area and then suction with a syringe. I think he feels some relief from the pressure after I do it. I know I would feel better after getting all that fluid out. And yes, he is a sweet-heart. He loves to be cuddled.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*thirsty*

Lately craow Dum has been really thirsty and not eating as much. His/her poops are watery. I'm not sure what's going on. I am wondering if this is a hormonal thing. he/she is still very active and alert following me around.
The sad news is I just found out my vet is leaving her practice for another new venue. I am bummed out! There are not many vets give a hoot about pigeons so this is really sad news for me! There no more avian specialists at Boston's angel memorial! I do not understand this!)


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I do believe the watery poops and food issues is now hormonal. Most likely "he" is a "she" as a recall from last year's behavior as well. I found "her" in my hand-bag in the closet, in the dirty clothes basket and under a shelf. She is eating more again so I keep the food dish piled up and change it frequently since she will not eat if there is snot near the near the dish (I know it's gross but this is true with this snotty-nose pigeon!)


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Pirab,
How is Craow Dum? I hope everything is ok and she is happy.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

No changes really. His head sometimes swells up and then I suction fluid out. He seems happy and "normal" (for him) I clean him twice a day but he has a good appetite and his poops are fine. He's a sweet-heart!
thanks for asking!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the update. Glad to know you're both ok.
Take care!


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