# YB Color Question



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

I have two chicks that are starting to put on unexpected colored feathers. After doing a little research on color morphs, recessive/dominant genes, etc. I paired a white cock with a dilute blue bar hen and expected blue bar offspring carrying the recessive white gene. I was going to mate the white cock back to one of his daughters to produce 50% white pigeons. I got these two chicks. How/why are they these colors?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The cockbird is ash-red underneath the recessive white, which is why you have two red splashes  Both of those babies are split for recessive white and dilute.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The cockbird is ash-red underneath the recessive white, which is why you have two red splashes  Both of those babies are split for recessive white and dilute.


How did you learn your colors so well ?!  I am very impressed.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> How did you learn your colors so well ?!  I am very impressed.


I think it's really interesting, so I read stuff on genetics sites and here. Unlike reading boring textbooks at school where I retain almost nothing, I actually paid attention to this 'cause I like it. I've repeated myself, asked questions, and have looked up info to check myself/others so many times...that it's gotten stuck in my head  I guess "practice makes perfect" sort of applies with this stuff too.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The cockbird is ash-red underneath the recessive white, which is why you have two red splashes  Both of those babies are split for recessive white and dilute.


So shouldn't they both be ash red with similar markings? Aren't all ash reds basically a red bar with an ashy background? I have one ash red cock and he was colored identical to his mother. Where is all the white coming from? Or is there piebald hiding under the recessive white also?

Also, isn't dilute only on the X chromosome? Meaning only the male offspring will be het/split for dilute?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, only the males will be split for dilute, sorry.


Ash-red is one of the 3 basic colors - Ash-red, Blue, and Brown.
It comes in bar, barless, check, and t-pattern, just like blue and brown does. And yes, piebald was being carried, so it showed up in the kids.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

So what would the chicks be? Pied, ash-red, het for white?

What is the T-pattern?

I find genetics interesting. It is one of the reasons I started raising pigeons again. I like to "create" certain colors using different mating combinations. I was expecting blue bar offspring carrying the recessive white gene, males also carrying the dilute gene. I didn't realize that the recessive white would be "covering up" the other stuff.
Since both chicks are red, isn't it likely that the male is homogenous(sp) red? I know further breeding will tell for sure, but if he was split red, you would expect only half offspring to be red, correct?

Is the pied gene dominate to normal?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't think your squeakers are brown; they look ash-red to me. Browns have tail bars and look pretty much like blues only with a brown tint. They also have false pearl eyes (but of course that won't show up for a while; these guys are too young).

I would call the one on the left a piebald, and the other a splash since it has so much white, but that's just me 

There are several different white genes, and I'm not sure if they are dominant or recessive, partial or not. 

If the male is split for brown, then you are right about how it would be inherited 

T-patterns look like this:
















The shield can look completely black, red, or brown....which can trick some people into believing the blues and browns are spread, and the reds are recessive red. But the easy way to tell them apart is the tail. T-patterns may be dark birds, but the tail will look normal and the bar clear. And in ash-red birds, the tail will just look normal, obviously without a tail bar.

T-pattern is also called velvet, dark check, and t-check. It's the most dominant of the basic patterns.

In order of dominance:
T-pattern, check (heavy, medium/normal, then light), bar, barless.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I would call the one on the left a piebald, and the other a splash since it has so much white, but that's just me


Is a splash just a "heavy" piebald?


----------



## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I think it's really interesting, so I read stuff on genetics sites and here. Unlike reading boring textbooks at school where I retain almost nothing, I actually paid attention to this 'cause I like it. I've repeated myself, asked questions, and have looked up info to check myself/others so many times...that it's gotten stuck in my head  I guess "practice makes perfect" sort of applies with this stuff too.


Sounds familiar. My 9 year old son is having a tough time in fourth grade. However, he can list over 100 different dinosaurs, tell you whether they are ceratopsians, sauropods, or...? He can also tell you What the advantages and disadvantages are of having a sail (bony fin-like thing on the back), and where most fossils were found.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah, most people call the heavily pied birds, splashes.



And that sounds like me in 4th grade! Only instead of dinosaurs, it was birds. Then I got my first pigeons at his age, so by the time I was out of elementary school, it wasn't just birds I knew all about, but pigeons. People thought I was crazy


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yeah, most people call the heavily pied birds, splashes.


So both babies would actually be pied then?

The next few months will be interesting as I mate this white cock to different hens to see what colors he is hiding under the rec. white.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

dtrojcak said:


> So both babies would actually be pied then?
> 
> The next few months will be interesting as I mate this white cock to different hens to see what colors he is hiding under the rec. white.


Yep 

Can't wait to see if he has anything else under there besides ash-red.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

The guy that gave him to me raises pigeons for fun/hobby. He doesn't selective breed, so there is no telling what the birds background is. Figuring it out will be a fun challenge.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

Ok, I've noticed some small blue/black "spots" in the tail feathers of these two. Going by what I've read on this site, that would mean the blue from the hen is trying to show through, which would also mean they are cocks, correct?
My ash-red cock had a blue sire, and he has similar spots in his tail feathers.


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Yes, that would mean they are both cock birds.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

Crap, I really wanted at least 1 hen out of this nest. I only have 6 adult birds and 5 of them are cocks. Now 2 more cocks. Oh well, maybe next nest will be 2 hens.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

if anyone is into pigeon genetics check out Ron Huntley web site, its loaded with everthing you care to know about this subject.
www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi DROJCAK, Could you post a more up to date picture of these young birds with the tail spread. The hen mother of these young birds I would also like to see her wing as I would like to see the bars it seems like there maybe a hint of bronzing and I would like to be sure.*
GEORGE


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

george simon said:


> *Hi DROJCAK, Could you post a more up to date picture of these young birds with the tail spread. The hen mother of these young birds I would also like to see her wing as I would like to see the bars it seems like there maybe a hint of bronzing and I would like to be sure.*
> GEORGE


The hen is in the the 2nd pic at the beginning of this thread. I'll try to get some pics of the chick's tails tomorrow or next day.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Hi DROJCAK, Could you post a more up to date picture of these young birds with the tail spread. The hen mother of these young birds I would also like to see her wing as I would like to see the bars it seems like there maybe a hint of bronzing and I would like to be sure.*
> GEORGE


I see the bronze there too. But I thought it was odd how it only showed on 3 or 4 feathers, and the color of it is so light. Does dilute effect the shade of color that the bronze appears?


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

Ok here are the requested pics. 
First one is the hen, next two are the chicks tails.

If the hen does have "bronzing", what does that mean?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Both of your young birds are definitely males.

It just means your hen has bronze, which I think is pretty. It's the chocolate color in the bars.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Both of your young birds are definitely males.
> 
> It just means your hen has bronze, which I think is pretty. It's the chocolate color in the bars.


That's what I was afraid of. I only have one 3-month old hen and this hen. I was really wanting at least one hen out of this nest to breed back to the cock to get some more whites. Oh well.

Is bronze another color? I have another cock from her and a blue checker, but he doesn't show any color like that.


----------



## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

george simon said:


> *Hi DROJCAK, Could you post a more up to date picture of these young birds with the tail spread. The hen mother of these young birds I would also like to see her wing as I would like to see the bars it seems like there maybe a hint of bronzing and I would like to be sure.*
> GEORGE












I noticed that too... even the wing looks like its a light colored brown.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Bronze isn't another color, but rather a color modifier. Kind of like with grizzle birds. The bird is still genetically a blue, red, or brown bird, but the presence of the grizzle gene alters it's appearance.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Bronze isn't another color, but rather a color modifier. Kind of like with grizzle birds. The bird is still genetically a blue, red, or brown bird, but the presence of the grizzle gene alters it's appearance.


Would it be a recessive modifier? I haven't noticed the bronzing in any of her other offspring. If it's recessive, would her offspring be carrying the gene, but not expressing it?
If I mated her back to one of her male offspring, would I get more bronze? I was going to do this in the future to hopefully get some more dilute birds, so I guess I'll see if the bronze shows up also.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have seen bronze randomly make an appearance (at least enough to where I could see it. Sometimes you don't notice it right off the bat in the bars and such), but there are more than one bronze gene. I think there are like....7? Or is that the number of 'white' genes? I don't remember. We'll need to wait for George or someone else with more experience in bronze. I know I've had it in a lot of my birds, just in the wing bars. Sometimes in the middle of the flights. So I'm not sure which ones are dominant, or recessive. Unfortunately my two main genetics reference sites don't go into detail about the different bronzes (or whites).


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Unfortunately my two main genetics reference sites don't go into detail about the different bronzes (or whites).


I know what you mean. After you two pointed this out to me, I've been trying to find out more about bronze, but haven't had much luck. I haven't messed with pigeons since I was a teenager, which was almost 20 years ago. I didn't pay much attention to colors, etc. back then. Just raised them to fly around the house, so all these colors and patterns are all new to me. I have a good understanding of dominate, recessive, sex-linked, etc. once I know whats what.

The things I don't quite understand is the piebald thing having so many variations(white flights, white head, etc.) I dabbled in snakes a few years ago, but pied was more or less random white spots. It seems in pigeons, there are some patterns to it since white flights seem to be inherited.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, there is a gene for white flights  And a gene for baldhead, white tail, and a combo of genes to make saddles. Piebald/splash is basically random. I'm not sure if there is something that controls tics behind the eyes, but that seems pretty common to pop up. I think there's also one that turns the body white, like in magpies. And probably another one to make the wingshields white (like to make nuns and helmets). But like I said, I'm mostly assuming here


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

Is pied considered recessive or dominant. I have raised 6 birds from this white/dilute blue pair now. 4 birds have varying pied patterns, but the latest nest seem to be "pied-free". They appear to be simply ash-red check with no indication of white feathers.

A pied-red-check hens from the white/dilute blue pairing is currently mated to a dark blue check cock. Their eggs should hatch next week. I am anxious to see what color their offspring is. I know the males will be red carrying blue and the females will be blue, but I'm wondering how the pied will show up.


----------



## dtrojcak (Aug 31, 2010)

Well apparently the eggs weren't fertile. They were supposed to hatch a couple of days ago and didn't. I candled them and they were still clear. 

Can anyone tell me more info about the pied gene? It seems to me to be a dominant gene and that my white cock is het for it. So far he has sired 8 pigeons and 6 of them are varying degrees of pied. 2 seem to be "normal" as far as the pied goes.


----------

