# Genetics



## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

I have a pair that of racer. The cock is charcoal/black bar. The hen is blue bar pied with white flight. The grand parents and great grand parents of the cock are blue bar and black. And for the hen, her parents are blue bar pied and blue bar. I don't know what color the grandparents are for the hen. This pair of bird had a baby that is all white. I am guessing that it may of came from the hens side. So my question is, how far back in the generations does it go for this pair to get a white baby? And are the genes of the great grandparents, and great great grandparents in the hens gene? 
Let me know what you guys think.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Good question*



1981 said:


> I have a pair that of racer. The cock is charcoal/black bar. The hen is blue bar pied with white flight. The grand parents and great grand parents of the cock are blue bar and black. And for the hen, her parents are blue bar pied and blue bar. I don't know what color the grandparents are for the hen. This pair of bird had a baby that is all white. I am guessing that it may of came from the hens side. So my question is, how far back in the generations does it go for this pair to get a white baby? And are the genes of the great grandparents, and great great grandparents in the hens gene?
> Let me know what you guys think.


Recessive genes can be continued on forever and will be in a few birds, randomly in a certain percentage.

The hen sounds to be pied but pied is a general term that applies to many forms of white on colored birds. Pied birds rarely have pure white young but they can and this is possibly what happened here. Normally they have varying amounts of color and white which is usually in the wings, head and tail.

Pure white comes from a few different situations but the normal one is grizzles and it doesn't sound like either parent is grizzled. These whites are not usually white in the nest either and tend to moult into it except in the case of ash red grizzles that produce whites and most white pigeons are from this. Confusing? alittle.

The answer may lie in the cock bird which you describe as charcoal black bar. These birds have other factors that modified their appearance. I'd have to refer to my book but I'm not even sure if the answer is there. Maybe George will jump in on this, he's got a pretty good handle on pigeon genetics.

Bill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The hen is split for the color it shows The cock will mask another color That can come forward. BUT are these birds in a seperate area or in with other birds. Plus do you have any white cocks. Might be the hen may have been topped by another bird. you say the cock has a bar is this bird a slate color bird with a horn or horn stained beak.


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

Re, my breeders are breed in individual pens. Just to let you know. 

Thanks Bill that clears some things up. I think its a miracle baby  Just got to wait to see if the eyes will be bulleyes or not. If it does, does it mean that there could be a white along the generations somewhere?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*White is somewhat of a mystery*



1981 said:


> Re, my breeders are breed in individual pens. Just to let you know.
> 
> Thanks Bill that clears some things up. I think its a miracle baby  Just got to wait to see if the eyes will be bulleyes or not. If it does, does it mean that there could be a white along the generations somewhere?


As it can come from many sources.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*White Is Not A Color*

*White is a very intresting genetic subject first off we all must under stand that white is not a color. white is the absence of color.We need to go back to the development of the embryo where pigment cells are developed in great numbers,these cells, like sperm cells,have the power of movement.These cells migrate in all directions within the embryo and take up residence in different densities related to the distance traveled. Once they become established they divide and saturate an area with pigment-forming cells. Now here comes the kicker these cells are very sensitive to small changes and time are factors that are involed if these cells do not arrive within the alloted time frame result is white. There are at least 8 forms of white I will name them but I will not explain them,ALBINO WHITE,PATTERN WHITE,MIGRATIONAL WHITE, DIRECTIONAL WHITE, PIEBALD WHITE,RECESSIVE WHITE,EXTREME DILUTION WHITE,and REVERSION to WHITE.* .GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

1981 said:


> I have a pair that of racer. The cock is charcoal/black bar. The grand parents and great grand parents of the cock are blue bar and black.


 HI 1981, I just want you to know that the bird that you call a charcoal/black bar is realy a BLACK carring spread.The spread factor acts on the black of the wing bars and tail bar and spreads it (the black pigment) over the whole body thus creating a black bird, the tail and wing bars tend to be a bit darker,but this does not make the bird a charcoal.So the spread factor has changed a blue bird into a black. .GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*



george simon said:


> HI 1981, I just want you to know that the bird that you call a charcoal/black bar is realy a BLACK carring spread.The spread factor acts on the black of the wing bars and tail bar and spreads it (the black pigment) over the whole body thus creating a black bird, the tail and wing bars tend to be a bit darker,but this does not make the bird a charcoal.So the spread factor has changed a blue bird into a black. .GEORGE


Are you sure about that? Yes, blue with spread equals black but the bird he describes, I believe has another modifier and I can't remember which one. Perfectly glossy blacks are blue and spread. These charcoal types, I have wondered if they are actually dun that is darkened by something else. The simple test for that would be a mating to normal and producing short downed chicks ( dilute hens) would prove it out. I'll see if I can find it in the Quinn book.

Bill
Bill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I thought Black was actually Blue spread ...............I thought that pigeons only have 3 colors.......Blue, Red and Brown. Every thing we "see" is one of those colors modified. That's what I thought........course I've never been paid to think.


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

Hi George. Interesting and informational stuff. So what would I called the charcoal color cock, "black spread"?  
Thanks a bunch.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI BILL,He said that he could see the black bars this is considered a poor black spread, In AXEL SELL'S book he states,"The intensity of color,however,might dependon the pattern. Thus we sometimes can find solid blacks where the bars are darker in color than the remaining plumage.From the fancier's point of view those are poor-coloured blacks."........... Most people in racing realy could care less about color and thus come up with their own ideas on naming colors. Just take INDIGO most racing people will call it a Chocolate,and I have some call them Mosaics, and if you showed them a homozygous Indigo they would call it a red check,and if we showed them a true silver need I say more. In any event he called the cock a Charcoal/blackbar which I feel is a poor black spread. .GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> I thought Black was actually Blue spread ...............I thought that pigeons only have 3 colors.......Blue, Red and Brown. Every thing we "see" is one of those colors modified. That's what I thought........course I've never been paid to think.


 HI RENEE, Yes there only three colors RED, BLUE(some times called blue/black)and BROWN. Spread is a modifier that can effect all the colors This modifier will change a red bird to ASH color, a blue bird to Black,and a brown check,bar,or barless into a solid Brown bird. A true master breeder can work these modifiers and factors much like a artist with his paints. Color breeding is a art. ..........GEORGE


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

george simon said:


> *White is a very intresting genetic subject first off we all must under stand that white is not a color. white is the absence of color.We need to go back to the development of the embryo where pigment cells are developed in great numbers,these cells, like sperm cells,have the power of movement.These cells migrate in all directions within the embryo and take up residence in different densities related to the distance traveled. Once they become established they divide and saturate an area with pigment-forming cells. Now here comes the kicker these cells are very sensitive to small changes and time are factors that are involed if these cells do not arrive within the alloted time frame result is white. There are at least 8 forms of white I will name them but I will not explain them,ALBINO WHIE,PATTERN WHITE,MIGRATIONAL WHITE, DIRECTIONAL WHITE, PIEBALD WHITE,RECESSIVE WHITE,EXTREME DILUTION WHITE,and REVERSION to WHITE.* .GEORGE


Very interesting for sure, but if white was just the absent of color wouldn't that then be an albino and should have red eyes? Anything that I've ever seen that was without color that was a true albino had red eyes! So maybe an all white bird without the red eyes still has the color gene in his background if that makes any sense at all? I just don't know but this is very interesting, and since I also have white birds, but they must not be true white birds because they tend to at times throw off some color or a very small color marking you can't see unless your very up close to the bird!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you hold self colored bird to a light You notice most often a bar pattern. That bar is masked through the color But often still there. When Joe Quinns notbook became popular in the late 1970s Many people tore down there birds learning color genatics. they really tore there birds down bringing forward hidden colors And covered faults that basicly ruined all the forwadrd progress they and others had made. Then settled down and brought the birds back to form. Yes color breed is an art. BUT just breeding Quality birds is an art. After the color is set that part is over BUt the building the Quality needed in any breed is forever an art. Slack 1 year and others gain. Breed to tight to long and you fall backwards. Its all a challenge. Most often breed color outcross has produced the difffernt colors in many breeds. And breed out cross in show birds improved the needed Quality. In race birds Breed outcross becomes a hard thing to build on just for the sake of color. As say 5 years to set the new color and build the old form. Then years more of rebuilding the race Quality back in the birds. But I have a friend that has good birds and also breeds for color As this is why he likes his homers. Yes he looses most colored birds in the races But then a few hang in there. But people do with the birds what makes them the person happy with them. Pets show race or perform. Then color That is owed to the few that took this on and brought forth there work getting it reconized mostly for show standards. Man loves to play and learn.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI DEEJAY, Remember in my post I said that the pigment cells have a time frame they must meet, if for some reason these cells do not reach the feathers within the alloted time the feather recieves no color thus it becomes white but this bird still has the color gene in its make up.That is why you get color feathers in some of the young of white parents. As to ALBINO(al) let me quote from Quinn's book. "Albimo white(al),is produced by a recessive autosomal mutation from the wild type.Pigment cells are altered in early development in the neural crest.Pigment cells develop and migrate,but the impact of the homozygous, al//al,albino gene is so great that these cells have no potential to produce melanin granules.In all animals and birds,albino is an autosomal recessive factor which produces typical pink eyes,white skin and white hair and feathers.Several forms of albino are presently being studied in the pigeon." ..GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I've only known one person to have an albino*

Dr Hollander had them as he had nearly every genetic makeup of pigeons that existed.

I bought pigeons from him back in the 70's and he was a very kind and humble man, especially considering what he had done and who he was.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*George, I don't get this one*



george simon said:


> HI RENEE, Yes there only three colors RED, BLUE(some times called blue/black)and BROWN. Spread is a modifier that can effect all the colors This modifier will change a red bird to ASH color, a blue bird to Black,and a brown check,bar,or barless into a solid Brown bird. A true master breeder can work these modifiers and factors much like a artist with his paints. Color breeding is a art. ..........GEORGE


Rather than hunt through my Quinn book, I'll ask you. What do you mean about spread changing red to ash? What would we call this bird? I'm not challenging, I'm just curious.

Also, the poor quality blacks as you say can come from many different modifiers that alter the black pigeon. Some that I've seen however, I have wondered if they in fact were very dark duns (from yet another modifier) as many duns will show a pattern or bars.

I think we should apply for a genetics category or forum instead of having to work these into everything else. I love this stuff. What do you think?

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI BILL, First I have QUINN's book and the book by AXEL SELL both are very good books.I like Sell's book as it has color pictures.On this ash spread thing let me quote from his book."Ash-red pigment is altered by S to a uniform ashy coloration. Sometimes the plumage becomes a soft blue or lavender. This is true especially for ash-red cocks which are impure for the black colour. They are sometimes erroneously mistaken for milky. The breeders of those lavenders are oftend disappointed because it is not possible for them to raise similar coloured hens. We know that this is not possible because hens cannot be impure for colour.".......... GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

BILL, I am glad that you brought up Dr. Hollander,I never met the man and wish I had. I have his book ORIGINS AND EXCURSIONS IN PIGEON GENETICS so I thought lets see what he had to say about ALBINO. One thing that struck me is that albino is found often in racing pigeons, the original post by 1981 said he had a white youngster out of a pair of colored racers well now just maybe he has an ALBINO in the nest.. I hope that 1981 keeps us posted and that we get to see a picture of this bird. ..GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Quinn is a tough read to an extent*



george simon said:


> HI BILL, First I have QUINN's book and the book by AXEL SELL both are very good books.I like Sell's book as it has color pictures.On this ash spread thing let me quote from his book."Ash-red pigment is altered by S to a uniform ashy coloration. Sometimes the plumage becomes a soft blue or lavender. This is true especially for ash-red cocks which are impure for the black colour. They are sometimes erroneously mistaken for milky. The breeders of those lavenders are oftend disappointed because it is not possible for them to raise similar coloured hens. We know that this is not possible because hens cannot be impure for colour.".......... GEORGE


The lack of color pictures makes the words pretty important but he does a good job. I'd like to have one with color pics as well. I have to cross reference my questions with the encyclopedia by Levi.

Yep, the spread makes ash red mostly silver, lavender and all that. I thought you said red (I'm thinking recessive red) turned to ash or silver with spread. I read up on it and spread is said to intensify or improve recessive red. I probably have one of these in my rollers as he is a very intense red from tip to tip. A simple test would be to mate him to blue or silver and see if I got blacks, that would tell me that he is spread. Other than the experiment, it's not a very good mating.

We had a discussion earlier about some of my spread ash reds as I got to wondering (hoping) that I had indigo. Not likely.

What do you think lavender Lahores are genetically? They all appear to be in the ash red group from my experience anyway as reds and yellows had a tendency to be ashy in the wing. The lavenders are the best lavender that I have ever seen and I think it may be milky factor that makes them so lavender.

Powder blue Indian Fans were also a very different color and I'm pretty sure that I read that they had the milky factor. The color was different from any pigeon that I have ever seen and whether it was just blue and milky, I don't know.

Bill

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I never met him in person*



george simon said:


> BILL, I am glad that you brought up Dr. Hollander,I never met the man and wish I had. I have his book ORIGINS AND EXCURSIONS IN PIGEON GENETICS so I thought lets see what he had to say about ALBINO. One thing that struck me is that albino is found often in racing pigeons, the original post by 1981 said he had a white youngster out of a pair of colored racers well now just maybe he has an ALBINO in the nest.. I hope that 1981 keeps us posted and that we get to see a picture of this bird.  ..GEORGE


But I used to talk to him on the phone and he shipped pigeons to me. He was just as nice and humble as anyone you could ever meet. He had Lebanons at the time and I got some from him for different blood. I don't have any of his books but he is mentioned in all of my books.

I'm interested in these whites as well but I doubt anyone has an albino. Most of these that I'm seeing look like very light patterned pieds or sometimes storks. Again, anything is possible.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> But I used to talk to him on the phone and he shipped pigeons to me. He was just as nice and humble as anyone you could ever meet. He had Lebanons at the time and I got some from him for different blood. I don't have any of his books but he is mentioned in all of my books.
> 
> I'm interested in these whites as well but I doubt anyone has an albino. Most of these that I'm seeing look like very light patterned pieds or sometimes storks. Again, anything is possible.
> 
> Bill


 BILL, I checked the FOY's catalog to see if they had the book by HOLLANDER and they do I was also supprised at the cost only 4.00 dollars its a paper back and mine has poor binding so I will be ordering a new one. Its a group of articals that he wrote for a pigeon magazine over the years.The order number for this book is #828 and their phone number is(toll free) 1-877-355-7727 their web site is www.foyspigeonsupplies.com ......GEORGE


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

george simon said:


> HI RENEE, Yes there only three colors RED, BLUE(some times called blue/black)and BROWN. Spread is a modifier that can effect all the colors This modifier will change a red bird to ASH color, a blue bird to Black,and a brown check,bar,or barless into a solid Brown bird. A true master breeder can work these modifiers and factors much like a artist with his paints. Color breeding is a art. ..........GEORGE




Hi George, So does that mean that if a Master breeder breeds different color birds together, generations after generations, then eventually a mosiac will come out of the artist brush when he is done?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

1981 said:


> Hi George, So does that mean that if a Master breeder breeds different color birds together, generations after generations, then eventually a mosiac will come out of the artist brush when he is done?


 HI 1981, Many people in racing will use the word mosiac for birds that have odd colors. A true MOSIAC is a genetic freak that happens rarely.These birds do not fit into any genetic rule.The most striking examples are birds that look like a blue bar on one side while the other side is a red bar it is belived that two sperm have inpregnated the egg each sperm carring a different color and each color coloring one side of the bird.There have been breeders that have mated these MOSIACS in the hope to breed more mosiac all have failed.  GEORGE


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

george simon said:


> HI DEEJAY, Remember in my post I said that the pigment cells have a time frame they must meet, if for some reason these cells do not reach the feathers within the alloted time the feather recieves no color thus it becomes white but this bird still has the color gene in its make up.That is why you get color feathers in some of the young of white parents. As to ALBINO(al) let me quote from Quinn's book. "Albimo white(al),is produced by a recessive autosomal mutation from the wild type.Pigment cells are altered in early development in the neural crest.Pigment cells develop and migrate,but the impact of the homozygous, al//al,albino gene is so great that these cells have no potential to produce melanin granules.In all animals and birds,albino is an autosomal recessive factor which produces typical pink eyes,white skin and white hair and feathers.Several forms of albino are presently being studied in the pigeon." ..GEORGE


Wow that is sure a lot to take in thanks George for your input!


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