# Baldness!! (This is NO moult!)



## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

My pigeons (8 out of 20) are going bald!!
They are not moulting but now have bald spots all over the place!!

My pouters and fantails have been affected!!
I have posted pics but they are not so clear.. I have been trying to post this for a week but due to recent monsoons, everything is in doldrums!

PLz assist..
Thnx,


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are the bald spots either on the head or in the frontal/crop region?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hamza,

The bigeon that is balding in the front/crop area, I would treat for canker.
If you have never treated your birds for canker, I would go ahead and treat
all of them for canker.

Here are the canker medications available here in the US, and I realize that
you are in Pakistan:

Ronidazole
Carnidazole
Metronidazole
Dimtridazole
Secnidazole

I'd go for Ronidazole or Carnidazole. If you can get two of these meds, like
Carnidazole and Ronidazole, go for it. Do you also spray your living area for
the birds in addition to spraying the birds themselves? And if so, what are
you spraying with?

fp


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I was thinking mites maybe, but maybe its canker. We're not talking typical pidgie-pattern-baldness here.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Uchie also having problem...*

Not trying to step on Hamzas thread, but am concerned about my Indian fantail, Uchiwa here now.

I had suspected at first it to be just a bad _moulting problem_. A few others here are experiencing their fall moult, but Uchie seems to be having a problem getting back to "normal".I cleaned out the coop well a couple of weeks ago and vacumed out some webs in the corner. The coop had some crickets and who knows what else creeping inside, so I sealed the bottom nice and tight with door trim. That problem solved. I sprayed Uchie with mite spray and re-treated all of the pigeons with their pigeon bath salt mix two weeks ago. 

The area in front of the crop just looked like it hurt, so I have been applying neosporin to the bald exposed area for the last week or so. Today I bathed Uchie with regular Dawn, and some more feathers came out. The area affected looks almost like Hamza's fantail, only not as large. It is the size of a silver dollar now.

I read this post and am wondering about canker. BUT,I saw no signs of canker at all....???? 

I plan on starting the canker medication, as they are all overdue anyway, but may have to schedule a trip to the avian vet next week if no improvement is shown this weekend.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Victor, start the Trichomonas meds imediately. Do a group treatment even
if they have different bowls. Change the water every 24-12hours depending 
on how hot it is. Will you be treating w/Dimetridazole, Victor? There are some
instructions from Dr. Chalmers that will make that easier for you if you are.

Diesel just had a spat w/something very similar and I really couldn't see anything when looking w/a lighted otoscope down the throat. But I know
from rescues that have had holes eaten through that area that it is most
likely Canker, please don't wait to treat! I treated Deisel's with Metronidazole
cream on the outside as well, and he has started growing in new feathers in
the area since the Canker treatment.

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

I just got home from work fp, I will be treating Uciwa and the other seven pigeons with with Dimetridalole. I am making a fresh dose right now.It is 12:30 am. but immediately is best.


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

* Are the bald spots either on the head or in the frontal/crop region?*
Yes, only on head and crops..

I have only *Metronidazole * available by the name of flagyl.. But it isnt dissolving in water.. Should i give them the whole tablet (its 200mg)..

You mention a Metronidazole cream.. Which brand does it come in? 

And lastly,
how does this spread?

Thnx.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Victor said:


> I just got home from work fp, I will be treating Uciwa and the other seven pigeons with with Dimetridalole. I am making a fresh dose right now.It is 12:30 am. but immediately is best.


From this link:

http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm

"Dimetridazole (Emtryl): 3/4 tsp per gallon (4 litres) for 5-7 days (Canadian Emtryl – 40% water-soluble powder). "

And from this link:

http://www.whitewings.ca/Canker.htm


*"...I found that the Australian method of 
treating is the most practical and beneficial. This is what to do. At the evening feeding, mix up the correct 
dosage of one level teaspoon for 4.55 litres of water and leave it in the loft for 2-3 hours maximum. At the 
end of this time, throw out the treated water, wash the drinker thoroughly or use a fresh one, and replace the 
treated water with fresh clean water until the next evening. At this time, repeat the full-dose treatment for 2-3 
hours, after which throw out the treated water and replace it with fresh water until the next evening. " *

Victor, I hope this helps,

fp


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2007)

Victor,
Are you using Neosporin ointment or cream? Ointment gets into the pores and blocks the follicles from growing feathers normally. Cream is water soluble and won't do any harm.
I suggest using a multivitamin for your bird plus a calcium supplement. This could all be caused by nutritional deficiencies.
You might want to consider a lice powder in case that's the cause.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hamza said:


> * Are the bald spots either on the head or in the frontal/crop region?*
> Yes, only on head and crops..
> 
> I have only *Metronidazole * available by the name of flagyl.. But it isnt dissolving in water.. Should i give them the whole tablet (its 200mg)..
> ...


Once a bird has it in the 'disease state' as opposed to the host equilibrium
state, it continues to advance and destroy tissue. The Metronidazole cream 
can be rubbed onto areas topically, is manufactured by Fougera and comes
in a tube(45 frams). Is the bird "sweating" in the bald areas?

No, don't give the birds the whole tablet. Do you have 1 cc syringes
and how many birds do you have, Hamza? Have you ever crop medicated?
What is the average weight of your birds? 

It does sound to me that you have some birds w/Trichomonas (Canker).
If, after medicinally treating the birds, you treat the water w/one to 
two Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar per Gallon, a few times a 
week, it will help to keep an acidic environment in both the water 
and the birds system which in turn discourages the growth of this (Trichomonad in particular)
organism and also other damaging organisms which don't thrive in acidic environments. 
Likewise, the beneficial organisms that do thrive in acidic environments are encouraged to 
grow and crowd the detrimental ones out by maintaining the acidic environment.

fp


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2007)

Hamza,
Metronadazole isn't water soluble and the solid pill is dosed at 50 mg per kilogram so if you have a 200 gram bird, multiply .05 X 200= 10.0 mg twice a day but Please consider the possibility of lice infestation.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It depends on what kind of Metronidazole that you have regarding water solubility. But if you can individually dose your birds w/syringe, here are
instructions from a recent post by TAW:

"I believe the dose of Metronidazole for birds is 50 mg per kg of weight. Assuming you dissolve a 250 mg tablet of Metronidazole in 10 cc of water, you have a resulting strength of 25 mg per cc of the solution. Using this strength of solution the following amounts would be given twice per day for the various weights:

100 grams - 0.2 cc
150 grams - 0.3 cc
200 grams - 0.4 cc
250 grams - 0.5 cc
300 grams - 0.6 cc
350 grams - 0.7 cc
400 grams - 0.8 cc
450 grams - 0.9 cc
500 grams - 1.0 cc

http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/infectives2.htm contains the following dosage information:

Metronidazole

Bird Pigeons: 50 mg/kg BW PO bid for 5 days (Johnson-Delaney; 1996)
Pigeons: 200-250 mg/kg BW PO sid for 3-7 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 10-20 mg/kg BW IM sid for 2 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 4 g/gal drinking water for 3-7 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996) "

The picture that you showed of the bird w/the feathers missing in the
crop area did indeed seem to be canker, and I would treat for it. We
don't always see evidence in terms of a 'cheesy growth' because it can
and does set up shop in areas not readily viewed. I've had a fair # of
birds w/this feathering issue come through here w/canker as the causative
underlying issue. 

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

pigeonperson said:


> Victor,
> Are you using Neosporin ointment or cream? Ointment gets into the pores and blocks the follicles from growing feathers normally. Cream is water soluble and won't do any harm.
> I suggest using a multivitamin for your bird plus a calcium supplement. This could all be caused by nutritional deficiencies.
> You might want to consider a lice powder in case that's the cause.


Yes, pigeonperson, it was the ointment. I had thought about that yesterday when I bathed him with regular Dawn. It was all removed, and today, the area seems to be even "breathing" better. I do have the muti-vitamins and will start on that soon. They are all give ACV regularly, garlic and probiotics, so I thought there would be no need for further action.I do believe it could have been contracted from some of the wild birds that would slip into the flight pen to "visit" and drink. Last week I spotted a younger black bird mingling with the pigeons in their flight pen. He had to squeeze through the chain link mesh to get out as I approached. The pen is half enclosed with hardware cloth now, and will finish, now that the heavy raining has stopped, to keep the visitors out. They will have to stay at their own fountain and eating location that I have for them.




feralpigeon said:


> And from this link:
> 
> http://www.whitewings.ca/Canker.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks fp, this is the method I am using. Uchiwa is already looking much better, as are the poops this afternoon when member Dekebrent came over to visit the pigeons. The medicine does work wonders and they are all being treated.Thank you both.

Hamza, I hope things will be well for your pigeons now.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I'm sure the ferals that you have all have been exposed to it anyway, so
it may just have been 'time'. I'm glad you are treating, Victor. I think the
natural products did what they are hoped to....they prolonged the time that
you didn't need to treat the birds for the condition.....  

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Victor, glad to know Uciwa is looking better.

Hamza, you can crush the Metronidazole tablet with the back of a spoon to get it to a very fine powder and mix it with water. Make sure you keep this refrigerated and shake very, very well before pulling up a dose.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, the unused portion of the mixture does need to be refridgerated, Hamza.
Sometimes, and I don't know what is available to you locally, but sometimes
drug stores sell eye droppers that have dosing lines on the side for ml's/cc's
if you can't get a hold of a needle-less syringe. Just a thought.

fp


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

*Is the bird "sweating" in the bald areas?*
I havent checked yet.. Plus, they are regaining and losing feathers simultaneously.. Today old spots were little feathery whereas other areas, esp. near and around the beak, feathers were missing..

*No, don't give the birds the whole tablet. Do you have 1 cc syringes
and how many birds do you have, Hamza? Have you ever crop medicated?
What is the average weight of your birds? *
1cc insulin syringes are available by many companies known as "U-100 type". No, i have never crop medicated.. I have 18 birds (6 kids).. I dont know the weight cuz i've never weighed them and never will be able to due to no equipment.. I have the weight machines for humans but cant possibly think of weighing a pigeon on that..
*
If, after medicinally treating the birds, you treat the water w/one to
two Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar per Gallon, a few times a
week, it will help to keep an acidic environment in both the water
and the birds system which in turn discourages the growth of this (Trichomonad in particular)
organism and also other damaging organisms which don't thrive in acidic environments.
Likewise, the beneficial organisms that do thrive in acidic environments are encouraged to
grow and crowd the detrimental ones out by maintaining the acidic environment.*
I am giving them ACV 4 tsps per 1L of water everyday.. And they have gotten used to it by now cuz i read on PT (like u said) that ACV stops growth of Canker and Candida and helps growth of feathers.. The ACV i'm using is from http://www.americangarden.us/products_ljv.html

*
Metronadazole isn't water soluble and the solid pill is dosed at 50 mg per kilogram so if you have a 200 gram bird, multiply .05 X 200= 10.0 mg twice a day but Please consider the possibility of lice infestation.*

I dust them with permethrin twice a month.. I have noticed black and white things around the beak and the "lung openings" which makes me suspect air sac mites but i have no way of removing them.. My uncle is due to visit Pakistan in 2 months so i asked him to bring Scatt from vetafarm from Canada.. Till then, i have no option but to wait..

*Hamza, you can crush the Metronidazole tablet with the back of a spoon to get it to a very fine powder and mix it with water. Make sure you keep this refrigerated and shake very, very well before pulling up a dose.
*
I;m gonna give it to them in water cuz i feel i may hurt them by crop medicating..

Will let you know by tomorrow..
Guys thanks for ur overwhelming support and i know i can always count on you guys!! Pigeon People here are not very logical and were telling me to give my pigeons Terra and Vibramycin.. But you guys make sense!

Thnx again,


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hamza, here's a link to a sticky w/many more links on the topic of
crop medicating for future reference:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15696

You mentioned that you are dusting the birds twice a month, are you
also dusting the living area? Scatt will definitely help you w/feather
loss around the face/mandibles due to mites in addition to air sac
mites. It's basically Moxidectin which is in the same family as Ivermectin,
known as the Avermectin family of medications.

You may have multiple issues going on w/your birds as in moult, mites
and canker. 

The ACV looks pasteurized, which is still going to have beneficial 
effects for your birds, but they could be getting more out of the 
ACV experience if it were Raw and unfiltered similar to this product:

http://www.bragg.com/products/applecidervinegar.html

I know you might not be able to get this in your area but should you
ever get the chance to get Raw ACV, snag the opportunity... 

Watch the bird w/the feathers missing in a patch around the crop
when medicating and make sure the bird drinks the water and gets
the meds delivered. Good luck!

fp


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks fp..

Well, after 2 days of meedicine, they are looking more 
"Lively" and eating a WHOLE lot more!! (which i think is a good sign..??)

I'll keep you updated on what occurs.. About the ACV, i'll look around and will most prolly be able to find it somehow..

Thanks again,


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

I hope things are doing well for your situation Hamza as mine did.

I gave Uchiwa and the rest of my pigeons the _Australian_ treatment for 5 days as fp recommended, and it worked very well. 

Uchie has perked up back to normal, eating well again and the feathers in the crop area are growing back well again.

Tomorrow, they will be back on their rotated ACV and garlic/probiotic schedule.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Victor and Hamza,

Glad to hear all of your birds are doing better, acting more lively, and feathers
growing back in  ...All in all, getting back to normal  .

fp


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

A week after medication, my pigeons are happy as ever and eating, lyke i said a LOT more..!! (NO worms btw)..

Feathers are growing back in and they are much much much more active..

Thnx for the unending support,
Hamza


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