# Pigeon Hit by BB



## LTalavera (Aug 23, 2008)

last night i stepped outside of my house and saw a bird fall from the light pole, it seemed that someone had hit it with a bb gun, he was was laying on his back with one of his wings flapping, i picked him up and took a look at the injury, it seemed that the bb hit it in the breast and came out the other side, i cleaned up both wounds with iodine and put him in a shoe box covered in cloths to keep him warm,this morning i went to check on him and he's still alive and when i took him out to clean the box he lifts his right wing, but his left has no movement,what kind of healing are they capable of? and how do i know if the damage is permanent? i tried to feed him some small seeds that i took from my parakeet and put a little container with water but he doesnt seem to want any, what shoud i go about doing at this point?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, he might be still in shock and if that is the case he won't eat. I wouldn't worry about that right now.
Is there any active bleeding?
Where exactly are the wounds? Could you post a pic of the bird?
Keeping him warm and quiet is most important now. You can apply some antibiotic cream on the wounds after cleaning them with saline, twice a day.
If you have Pedialyte see if he wants to drink. He needs to be hydrated asap.
Let us know if he is drinking.


Reti


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## LTalavera (Aug 23, 2008)

there doesnt seem to be any active bleeding,unfortunately i dont have a camera but the wounds are right under the wing where it meets the breast, i see that you are in miami, perhaps i can bring it to you, so you can guide me


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, you're in Miami?
I should have thought, people just love to use their BB's on birds here.

Sure you can bring him to me to take a look and I can give you also some Silvadene and antibiotics, which he might need since he has an open wound. 

My phone # 305-374-3525

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Update*

Talked to LT. I will see the bird tomorrow.
So far s/he sounds fine, eating a bit and drinking, just won't move the one wing. 
We will know more tomorrow.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thank you, LT for helping this poor pigeon. Reti, please let us know how he is.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Check the bird closely, Reti. I would think a bb hitting the bird in the breast would not travel THROUGH the bird's body...... he might have been hit with more than one bb unless it was a graze of the breast that went on to damage the wing. BTW the cheap bbs are lead....doubt if anyone shooting pigeons is going to pay premium price for copper bbs


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Yes Reti, let us know. Thanks, LT, for helping this pigeon.

As a kid, I shot a few birds (sparrows) with BB-gun. Had two BB-guns, sequentially. Sufficient education didn't come with ownership. Dad said don't shoot at other people, you might hit them in the eye. Shot a brother in the leg (he had jeans on) with some small caliche gravel. Thought it was funny to see him hop up and down. Kids don't think about pain and suffering and misery of others, unfortunately. A short step away, young people, many still kids, join the military while envisioning glamour and glory.

Larry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I will take a good look. I had no idea BB pellets are made of lead. 
But if it went through then it won't be inside anymore, right? Oh, you mean there could be more than one pellet, I see.
TL mentioned there is a smaller entry wound and a bigger exit wound. 
Guess we'll see tomorrow.

Larry I can't imagine you using a BB gun for fun. I guess kids can do stupid things. I used to catch flies and suffocate them in a closed glass jar. Pretty stupid, I didn't think flies can suffer.

Reti


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I hope the pigeon does well. I have Mr. Nelson, who came from the shelter and had been shot with a bb gun. He had already healed when I got him and had massive scar tissue built up where it exited, underneath the wing. After a few years he actually began flying again and can fly up to the highest perches now. For a long time he just hopped from perch to perch until he was where he wanted to be. 

I can't imagine any of us using a bb gun to purposely hurt an animal. Unfortunately, it does seem true that a lot of children don't see animals as things that feel pain. I used to fish a lot, catch and release, believing (as was easy to do, and a cop-out I see now) that what "they" say is true, and fish don't have feeling in their lips. The last time I was fishing (about four years ago) one swallowed the lure and died. I realized suddenly that here I was, with an animal rescue that included everything from fish to pigeons, and killing a fish who was otherwise minding his own business. I completely lost my taste for fishing. And when I was younger I loved animals but had no regard for bugs, spiders, mice, etc. Now I am lucky to see that every critter is in its own right to live its life. 

Of course, this is only my own personal experience and I'm not trying to put down anyone who does fish or anything. Just trying to say I understand how you can have one set of beliefs and then things can change as time goes on.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is a lovely little dove, with two symmetrical wounds in the chest, on the right and on the left.
I washed the wounds and took a close look. The one on the right seems more like a scrape and doesn't go deep actually it looks almost healed, might have been aloder wounds, who knows.
The one on the left has a deep hole. I cleaned it out and removed some feathers from inside the hole. It seems like it goes into the wing joint that is why he is not moving the joint. And most likely the bullet is inside.
This bird is way too tame, didn't flinch while examining or cleaning, that is not good.
I gave him an injection with EDTA for lead poisoning and showed LT how to do it and also gave him Baytril, silvadene to continue at home. 
Now we would need an xray to see what's going on. My current vet doesn't just do xrays.
I will try to talk to the rehabber in Palm Beach see if they could do it there for free or a small fee and then take it from there.
My main concern is that the bird is way too calm and sort of sleepy.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

Thank you for helping the bird and for the update. I certainly hope this bird can be saved.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Well done, Reti. At least with the good fortune of you being able to examine and render help to this dove, he has some chance. WIthout you and LT he would have none.

John


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Treesa and John. LT is doing the best he can and is taking great care of her. He can also call me anytime if things get worse. I emailed the rehabber in Palm Beach, hopefully they can take an xray and then we have a better picture of what's going on.

Reti


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## LTalavera (Aug 23, 2008)

hello, everyone, i want to thank Reti and everyone here that has helped me. The dove seems to be feeling a little better ,i gave her a second dose of antibiotics and she seems to be a bit more fussy when i try and hold her, and thanks to Reti thats a good sign,ive never been in this situation before and its proven to be quite an emotional one,i look at its helpless little eyes and it breaks my heart at the pain she might be in.Once again thankyou Reti and everyones support, i will keep you guys updated


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Perhaps Reti can try to visualize the track of the BB to determine where it might have gone. That might help in trying to figure out what else may need to be done, if anything.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Perhaps Reti can try to visualize the track of the BB to determine where it might have gone. That might help in trying to figure out what else may need to be done, if anything.
> 
> Pidgey



I think it goes right into the joint.
I doubt the bullet went through even though dovey has a wound opposite to the one mentioned, the second smaller one doesn't seem to go anywhere, it seems just a supeficial scrape. Besides if the bullet had gone through at the level of the two wounds it would have penetrated the crop and we would have other problems which she doesn't seem to have.
I am pretty sure the bullet is lodged in the joint.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

LTalavera said:


> hello, everyone, i want to thank Reti and everyone here that has helped me. The dove seems to be feeling a little better ,i gave her a second dose of antibiotics and she seems to be a bit more fussy when i try and hold her, and thanks to Reti thats a good sign,ive never been in this situation before and its proven to be quite an emotional one,i look at its helpless little eyes and it breaks my heart at the pain she might be in.Once again thankyou Reti and everyones support, i will keep you guys updated


You are taking great care of her and I am sure she feels comforted around you. She is a little trooper.
Her being fussy is good, we want her fussy, it's sign she is feeling better.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Don't give up hope!*

Don't give up hope! Like Reti says, fussiness (at this stage, at least) is good! 

I rescued female pigeon *Osk-gurr* last summer. She had a paralyzed right wing. Vet said she might recover use of it in a few weeks, or not.

She enticed my male pigeon *Wieteke* into raising a baby with her, and starting a second nest.

I had her three months, and found an aviary she could go to. So she and her (female) squeaker *Wie-osk* went to Christa's aviary, and Wieteke elected to not join her. 

Five or six months after the rescue, Christa informed me that Osk-gurr had raised another batch or two of youngsters with another handicapped male, and Osk-gurr *COULD ACTUALLY FLY *up to her perch, although with quite a bit of effort.

And I remember that it once took a year for the pain of a pinched shoulder nerve to go away, so that I could lift the arm all the way up again.

Some things take time. Patience certainly does.

Larry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Larry, I have a pigeon which had a fractire somwhere in the wing very close to the joint and with bone sticking out. My vet filed back the bone and eventually it got covered by skin and feathers. A few months later she was able to fly again. Now she is flying excellent.

I talked to LT on the phone. Dovey is doing pretty good. LT is very good in giving her her treatments and takes good care of her.
I found a vet in Ft.Lauderdale, avian certified, I am not sure how good he is but he loves birds, has pigeons himself, many rescued. He will see dovey for a reasonable fee and take an xray. So, we're getting some money together and will be taking her up there.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 




"B-B"s ( af from 'B-B' Guns, ) are 'round', they are spheres, tiny Balls...and are made of very thinly Copper Plated Steel...so as to discourage rusting...they are expelled by a plunger on a spring.


"Pellets" ( as from 'Pellet Guns', or 'Air Guns' ) tend to be pure Lead, and have a hollow base...and are expelled by highly comressed Air, usually provided by a built in lever-pump on the Gun itself, though sme use a small CO2 Cartridge instead.


Of the two, of course 'Pellets' usually do more damage, since Pellet Guns provide the projectile with a lot more velocity and are typically a lot more accurate, also.


Either projectile type, of course, would show very wll on a X-Ray...and, can be distinguished from eachother in an X-Ray oweing to their different shape.

'B-B's being 'round'...

'Pellets' being approximately Barrel shaped or cylindrical wheter or not posessing one rounded end.



'B-B's will not tend to penetrate very much into any uscle or firm tissue, though at very close range ( less than a foot ) they can go in m-a-y-b-e 1/8 of an inch or so...but as Larry recalls, they were never nown to penetrate clothing over flesh at a couple feet distance, even it would sting.


'Pellets' at close range, if from a more serious kind of Pellet Gun, have nearly the velocity of a .22 if with a lighter projectile, and could go right through a Bird's major Body section, or penetrate deeply at any rate into anyone's tissues.


Since most Pellet wounds are done at some distance, and with probably less powerful kinds of Pellet Guns, it is hard to say what penetrations they can acheive.


If in a Wing, the presence of a Pellet should be able to be determined by feeling with the finger tips.


If in a Thorax of course, unless one can see it's base by looking into a hole, then an X-Ray would be needed to see where it ended up, if it did not go through completely.



Most 'B-B' guns would not likely hurt a Pigeon enough to cause anhy problems if the Bird was ore then twenty feet away, if the shooter could even hit at at that range anyway.

Whereas 'Pellet' Guns, being ore accurate and having a lot more power, can inflict injury at greater distances, and hence, are usually what peole have used, when we find Birds injured by small projectiles.



Good luck..!



Glad to hear that the Antibiotics are showing an improvement in temprement..!


Phil
l v


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Phil. I have no idea about guns, pellets, bullets etc. I didn't even think there was that much difference.
So, a BB, if it is still inside can be left in there?
There is an obvious entry wound that goes straight to the joint. I didn't feel anything while cleansing her wound.
But there were some feathers in there which I pulled out with a tweezer.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 




Usually, a shallow hole with pushed in Feather debris is what one will find from most Pellet Gun injurys, since the distances they occured at, or the initial velocity, tended to slow down the projectile enough by impact-event, for that to be about it.


Of course, either a 'B-B' or a 'Pellet' could penetrate deeper, so we should do our best to determine if a projectile remains in the injury site or deeper and to the side somwehere by deflection.


When hitting Bone, the projectile typically stops and aside from whatever got pushed into the hole, the projectile usually falls out before we have the Bird to examine.



'Poppa Shot Wing' ( who still lives here, though he is releaseable and recovered fully, ) had been shot presumably with a Pellet Gun, where the projectile went through the muscles surrounding the Humerous and glanced off the Humerous, breaking it at that point...so he had a neat hole, right through...and a broke-in-two Humerous


He recovered perfectly, even though the 'hole' in the Feathers remained for a long time till those Feathers got replaced.


Anyway, Wings being of thin section relatively, and we know what should be there structurally...so it is fairly easy to tell if a projectile is ( still ) present.


A Copper Plated Steel 'B-B' would not tend to nsshave penetrated to be an issue of wondering if it is still present in tissues or not, where, a 'Pellet' could be however far into whatever tissues it has struck.


Either, if present, should be removed since they will tend to cause problems or be however so, 'sealed off' by the Body to slowly work their way 'out' over time...unless actually 'in' the Chest or internal Cavities, where they will not likely be able to ever work theselves out, but, that is different situation of course than when lodged in muscle.


Anyway, if there is a Pellet or BB in the Wing you should be able to feel it.


And of there is, you should remove it.


Ample sluicing or irrigations where the Saline or Antibiotic-Saline is cause to lift out any debris in the hole, is especially important in these kinds of projectile-punctures, since quite a bit of debris tend to get pushed in, as well as crushed tissues which become debris in their own right.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## LTalavera (Aug 23, 2008)

well, the little dovey seems to be doing much better, her moral seems to be up, shes walking around and seems to be eating and pooping regularly. ive seen some movement in the injured wing , now all we need is the x-ray to see if the projectile is still in her body, but thanks to everyone for thier support and Reti your the best! hopefully there will be a happy ending to this tragic beginning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, I have a gun that shoots both pellets and BBs. It is long like a rifle, and depending on how much you pump it up, it shots with a lot of power. I have seen pigeons easily killed at a distance of more than 20 feet with guns like this. BBs can and do kill birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Well, I have a gun that shoots both pellets and BBs. It is long like a rifle, and depending on how much you pump it up, it shots with a lot of power. I have seen pigeons easily killed at a distance of more than 20 feet with guns like this. BBs can and do kill birds.



Yes...an "AIR GUN" or "Air Rifle" or "Pellet Gun" which uses highly compressed Air or a 'C02' Cartridge, in which one electes pro-tem to shoot "B-B"s ( instead of Lead 'Pellets' ) , will deliver a potentially far greater velocity to the 'B-B' than a "B-B-Gun" as such would, ( relying on a Spring and 'plunger' to accelerate the projectile ).


Shooting "B-B"s out of a "Pellet Gun" or out of an "Air Rifle", does not make a "Pellet Gun" or 'Air Rifle' or "Air Gun' into a "B-B Gun"...it only means that a "Pellet Gun" or "Air Rifle" or "Air Gun" is being used to shoot "B-B"s out of.


Yes a person can kill Birds with a "B-B" gun if close enough and or depending on where the projectile hits...or, you can fire "B-B"s out of an "Air Rifle" and kill them also even at possibly farther distances, if you can hit them with the loss of accuracy a "B-B" inherantly will have, compared to a Lead "Pellet".


This does not make your "Air Rifle" a "B-B" gun, any more than shooting a "B-B" with a Sling Shot makes it into a "B-B" Gun.


A "B-B" Gun uses a Spring and a Plunger to accelerate the "B-B".


"Air Rifles" and their ilk use compressed Air or Gas to accelerate a projectile...and, are capable of projectile velocities far greater than "B-B-Guns" as such.




Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This doesn't use a cartridge or anything. You pump it up. What kind of gun is it then? Not sure what you wold call it. But it takes both pellets and BBs. Is it a pellet gun then? It can be pumped up and kill a bird at about 25 feet. Maybe it's a pellet gun then. But you don't use cartridges or anything.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

LT the news are certainly very good. I am so happy she is eating, pooping and walking around.
You are doing a great job, thank you and bless you.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so glad this little dove is doing better.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> This doesn't use a cartridge or anything. You pump it up. What kind of gun is it then? Not sure what you wold call it. But it takes both pellets and BBs. Is it a pellet gun then? It can be pumped up and kill a bird at about 25 feet. Maybe it's a pellet gun then. But you don't use cartridges or anything.




"Air Rifle"




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

LTalavera said:


> well, the little dovey seems to be doing much better, her moral seems to be up, shes walking around and seems to be eating and pooping regularly. ive seen some movement in the injured wing , now all we need is the x-ray to see if the projectile is still in her body, but thanks to everyone for thier support and Reti your the best! hopefully there will be a happy ending to this tragic beginning.




Glad to hear...


Sooner the better on that X-Ray...( Unless you can find someone of experience, who can reach an empirical determination based on inspecting and probing the wound channel, or in other words, depending on the way debris was pushed in to suggest a projectile is what caused the hole, and if there is a wound chanell which is a dead-end and deep, then probably the projectile is still in there. )



Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> "Air Rifle"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Phil. What does a human being get out of shooting a little creature with any kind of gun? Sad.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Why would any person even OWN such a thing?? I'd smash it to pieces and toss it in the garbage.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

little bird said:


> Why would any person even OWN such a thing?? I'd smash it to pieces and toss it in the garbage.


I don't think it is the gun that is the problem. It is how it is used.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Please enlighten me. I have only known a gun to be used for one purpose.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh come now, do you mean to tell me that the only use for a gun is to kill something? Some people DO like target practice. Same as for the bow and arrow. Not everyone kills with them, as I'm sure you very well know. Are you enlightened yet?


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Not quite.... target practice..... in preparation for??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'll explain it so that even you will understand it. Some people DO like to shoot. Not every one shoots at living things. If you can't understand that, than I believe it is because you do not want to. If you don't like it, well, not everyone has to agree with you. So get over it.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Thank you. So sweet of you to explain it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi little bird,



Speaking for myself, I had a strong interest in Firearms from early childhood, and was an active Target Shooter for some years.


I have never had an interest in 'Hunting' or in shooting living Creatures or any Creatures.

I had a "B-B-Gun" Rifle when I was a kid, and I never shot any Birds with it...even thoug hI did shoot some Snails and then feld bad about it, but my parents had been complaining aboutthe Snails, and then they put out poison for them anyway.


Mostly, overt he years, I was just really keen on old Pistols and Rifles of various kinds, and enjoyed owning them and target shooting with them.

Modern or contemporary Guns bore me or are not interesting to me to where I have ever wished to own any.


I do enjoy knowing that my experience and habits happen also to prepare me fairly well if ever I am confronted by anyone weilding a Firearm...or, have prepared me fairly well if ever I needed to use one for purpose of defence or to preserve Life.


Sadly, the is not the usual state of affairs of course...


Indoor Target shooting with Air Rifles or Air Pistols was quite popular years ago, as was indoor target Shooting with what are called .22 "B-B-Caps" which are the lowest velocity kind of .22 Cartridge.


Many Bars in Europe used to have ranges and various informal or formal competitions among their customers, 'Leagues', and so on.


Target shooting of all sorts, indoor and outdoor, used to be a Gentleman's pass time or hobby, and Target shooters were very seldom 'Hunters' or virtually never 'Sport' Hunters...and were never posturing macho idiots like on usually sees now...it is a completely different thing.



Responsible, civilized skill with Firearms, and a good general understanding of them, is a good thing to have.



Bear in mind, the 'Olympics' used to be various 'Martial' Skills.


Target shooting is it's own thing, even if it can be adapted to shooting people, or anything else, at one's descretion.


And descretion of course, is the Hand Maiden of any Civilized person's deportment.




Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thank you for that info Phil. I became interested in shooting as a young teen at summer camp where they did a lot of target shooting. Also bow and arrow. I was pretty good. I know a lot of people collect the old guns, and some of them are really something. And it doesn't hurt to know how to handle a gun, for ones own protection. Do you have many?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Nona, I have to agree with Jay3. Not all people use firearms to hurt anybody. My stepfather is an army person and since he had joined the army in his late teens he had guns around the house, loved to collect them. And while me and brother were living with him he did take us for target practice. Honestly we enjoyed shooting at empty cans and other inanimate targets. Never had it crossed out minds to use a gun on anything living. My stepfather made sure to take us in a remote burned down forested area were there was no wildlife around just to make sure we wouldn't accidentally hurt anything living, not even a tree.
I have another friend who is fascinated by guns and collects them does target practice just for the fun of it.
Some people enjoy it and see it as a sport. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Thank you for that info Phil. I became interested in shooting as a young teen at summer camp where they did a lot of target shooting. Also bow and arrow. I was pretty good. I know a lot of people collect the old guns, and some of them are really something. And it doesn't hurt to know how to handle a gun, for ones own protection. Do you have many?





Hi Jay3, 


Just a few...old ones ( meaning say, 1890s to 1930s ) but very practial and respctible ones.


Just been so busy with other things the last few years I have hardly done any Target Shooting at all...


...sigh...


Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

1890s, that is old. Nice. Do you display them? I know what you mean. Sometimes we get so caught up in everything else, that we don't take time to relax, and to just do something for ourselves. You really should you know.


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