# Well, this is different



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have had missing birds from races, come home long after the race is over, with their "chips" (electronic bands) missing. And that is okay. I just look at it as a payment for someone else feeding my bird for a short while.

But yesterday, something different happened.

I had an old bird that has been missing for a week, from our last race. Come home in good health, with both its electronic chip band *AND its AU band missing*. Both of its legs are bare. Other than that, the bird is in excellent health. No cuts and not hungry or "light". It is a silver and is well known to me. I only have ten old birds on my racing team.

So thanks to whomever eliminated the competition of this bird. A bird that didn't do so well in the race in the first place.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

*It usually is someone who you race against that did this....*...And the guy can`t win a race to save his life...No matter how many bands he cuts off of club/combine birds......Alamo


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

Oh nos!!!! It wasn't nepls was it?!?! I've enjoyed reading his success!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yep. Unfortunately it is your bird, NEPLS-1808.

Really makes me mad. But at least it is home and safe.

I will still be training it. But alas. His racing days are over.


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## pigeonraiser (Mar 23, 2001)

Dont understand why anyone would cut bands off someone elses birds.


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## MikeJ78 (Mar 24, 2011)

Maybe they were going to keep it so they took off any form of identification. Then the bird got loose. I had something like that happen to me when some of my sheep got loose. Some people down the road penned them up and when I saw them and went to thank the people for finding them they said that they had some sheep but didn't have any others in there. When I got closer I saw that they had cut the ear tags off. They were unmistakably mine as they were dorper Barbados crosses and were colored like paint horses no two alike but without theeartags I couldn't prove it. So, I made two signs that read " 4 lost sheep please call my number. Any lost souls feel free to call the same number" and I placed them on the roadside about fifty yards from their property so they when they left or came home from any direction they would have to look at them. I went back by a couple of hours later and both signs were gone. I wish I would have set up a video camera to record them taking the signs down.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

Sounds more like a PETA sympathizer. These folks aren't dumb, they look at races as cruel. So how do you stop the cruelty without harming the animal? They're smart enough to know that if the bird can't legally race it won't. Perfect solution from their point of view.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

This is sad and very disappointing to hear - on so many levels! Unfortunately, I'd have to look closely at who has proximity of the bird up until release time as suspect. Once released, the chances of someone 'catching' him are nearly nil. Secondly, if it was someone looking to just keep him, I doubt it'd be a club member. It would be too well known as your bird, and to see it in another loft there'd be quiet chatter at the least.

Maybe time to washout club handlers and vote in new ones?

So sorry to hear this!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Naw, it had nothing to do with "club handlers". I am sure of that, because I watch the entire procedure of putting the birds into a race.

Besides, this bird was not one that was "on fire" race wise.

Birds often go into wrong lofts during race days. Happens often actually.

This was just someone who got my bird in their loft happenchance, and either decided to keep it to breed from (which makes little sense), or more likely. Decided to eliminate some of the competition, without even knowing anything about the birds record.

It is as simple as that. One bird eliminated from any chance whatsoever, of beating their birds in a race.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Walt, many clubs allow split bands on old birds. Does yours? If so, you could just give him a new AU band.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

My club will not go for that.

But I have long argued that we really don't race pigeons. What we race, are electronic bands. Everything is about the band, and I don't know why it matters what bird the electronic band (or old school counter mark) is on. For old birds.

What does it matter if the bird in an old bird race, even has a year and number band on it at all? We are racing electronic bands or counter marks. I understand how in young birds, it would matter a great deal.

But, the rules are the rules. So, on with the show.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

I'd be interested in knowing which clubs allow split bands on their birds. Are these birds in official AU races?


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I always understood,if a pigeon does not have a permanent IF or AU band,the pigeon cannot be raced,no matter what age it is....Not saying a club or combine can`t let the pigeon race,if it wants to..But this is not the norm...Alamo


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

I think you do club members a disservice when you begin to suspect the race handlers. The person or persons responsible for races, unless it's a contract driver, just want to race birds like the rest of us. If there is no real money involved in the race, just eliminating one bird from the competition doesn't do you any real good and for what a piece of paper! You're doing what the people that are against pigeon racing want you to do. Suspect each other, sowing discontent, causing animosity within the organization. If we don't stick together they will accomplish their goals for sure.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

pigeon_racer said:


> I think you do club members a disservice when you begin to suspect the race handlers. The person or persons responsible for races, unless it's a contract driver, just want to race birds like the rest of us. If there is no real money involved in the race, just eliminating one bird from the competition doesn't do you any real good and for what a piece of paper! You're doing what the people that are against pigeon racing want you to do. Suspect each other, sowing discontent, causing animosity within the organization. If we don't stick together they will accomplish their goals for sure.


Just for the sake of clarity. I DO NOT suspect my organizations members of anything. I am not sure if your post was directed to me or not. I suspect it was directed to another poster. But I wanted to make it perfectly clear how I feel about this situation.

The bands did not come off accidentally. They HAD to have been removed by a person. A person that is almost assuredly a pigeon keeper/flyer. Strange pigeons go into every pigeon flyers loft, now and then. It is a common thing.

In every endeavor, be it a sport, a company, or anything else including the police or the Priest hood. There are bad apples.

I just think that it was a random pigeon flyer who thought it was a good idea, in his/her weird sort of thinking. Someone who doesn't win very often, if ever. Most likely this person had no clue who owned this bird, as the band was not even listed in my name, but was listed to someone far away from my area.

It ain't a big deal, in the big scheme of things. It is one bird that I can not legally race. But it is alive and healthy, and that is the important thing to me. I have other birds to race. This bird will be trained and tested again and again, against its race team mates, and possibly some day, breed a new generation. I don't know yet about that. Time will tell.

But I do not suspect ANYONE in my organization of shenanigans. They are all honorable men. The person that did this, most likely is not even be in my club, as I am the short guy, and my location crosses over to other areas, clubs and combines. Plus, large flocks of pigeons from way up north, Penn. and Ohio, race from this direction. It is old bird season and this bird could have very well fallen in with a flock going to a far away organization up north. They race right through my area.

What happened is a shame. But it could have been much worse. I am thankful he is home and safe.

Perhaps he never did like jewelry anyway.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

akbird said:


> I'd be interested in knowing which clubs allow split bands on their birds. Are these birds in official AU races?


Our club allows it for Old Birds. Whether or not it is allowed by AU I do not know. As a group, we have decided that we see no harm in letting a bird race with a split band. We need fewer hurdles in our club to keep people racing. No one in our club could come up with a scenario where it would be unfair.

I suppose, if someone really really wanted an AU champion or the sorts, they could keep removing the band and put it on more and more birds until they got enough points or diplomas or whatever it takes. But I think there are a total of two people in our club who even know what the AU database is or that it exists. My club members don't even know that I submit our database to the AU. 

Also, the flyers who employ the kind of loft management that would necessitate a split band on a bird are also not the flyers who will win many races anyway.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

IMHO This is why the sport is dying----people don't want to follow the rules and that kills the sport. In my mind we either follow the rules or then why bother to even have rules? I think there probably aren't many clubs that allow this but still, it isn't right. The AU has rules----they are meant to be followed. How can allowing a split-banded bird to compete be fair? The owner could easily put one bird in one week, a different bird in the next and so on. It's just not right.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

So the way I understand what Shorty2 said is that their club doesn't "go by the rules". Isn't that the definition of "cheating"? Our club goes by the rules which the AU has published. If you are going to ignore one rule, you may as well ignore them all. I'm all for allowing as many guys to fly as possible, but, by the rules.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

akbird said:


> IMHO This is why the sport is dying----people don't want to follow the rules and that kills the sport. In my mind we either follow the rules or then why bother to even have rules? I think there probably aren't many clubs that allow this but still, it isn't right. The AU has rules----they are meant to be followed. How can allowing a split-banded bird to compete be fair? The owner could easily put one bird in one week, a different bird in the next and so on. It's just not right.


Boy I had no idea I was contributing to the death of our sport. All this time I thought I was just be accommodating and flexible 

Yes, the AU has rules, but our club has our own by-laws. We can do this if we want to and not be breaking rules. A split-banded bird may not be eligible for AU awards or perhaps even recognition in the database, but our guys aren't interested in that. They just want to compete against each other and that's what we are doing. Many of our membership are flying with IF banded birds that aren't recognized by the AU database. I fail to see how it's unfair.

And so what if the guy takes the band and puts it on another bird every week? If our membership doesn't object, then where's the problem? A split-banded bird is not competing against anyone else outside our club. Like Walt said, we're just racing chips and bands, not birds . (Split-banded birds are not be eligible for club awards that involve accumulation of points, etc.) 

We intentionally do not race for money. There is just not a lot of incentive or history of our club members cheating. I can see how in other, bigger clubs you could never do this. We keep things light, flexible and fun. When we have problems or conflicts, we address them with our bylaws or by vote of current membership. Works for us. And I can say without an ounce of hesitation that if we weren't flexible then our club would have folded (died!) years ago.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

I guess we can agree to disagree. I do like the idea of being able to have 1000 mile races. When I flew in the South Florida Combine back in the 60's, we had a 1000 mile race. The winner got a trip to Central America (Panama I think). The same guy won it 3 years in a row. After that, there were no more 1000 mile races. If your IF banded birds aren't being recognized you need to contact the AU and find out why. I have some IF banded birds I raced and there were no problems for Winspeed recognizing them. I agree with you that we need to make racing as easy and pleasurable to the members as possible but (JMHO) I don't like the idea of ignoring rules to do it. Our club is small, 6 members as we try to make our races easy on everyone too. When we formed our club we had to submit our club bylaws to the AU----I find it hard to imagine that they would OK having split-banded birds compete. I may be wrong.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

This is straight from the AU:

Split bands are not allowed in any AU sanctioned races even if the club wants to allow it.

John Hundrup
AU National Race Secretary
509-552-0274


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

shorty2 said:


> There are fanciers out there that have no opportunity to race their birds because they live in remote areas too far from established clubs, so they have no means to fly their birds in a race. Also there are distance flying guys that want to send birds out to 1000 like they used to in the old days, but nobody in the US offers any races like that anymore.



*I am one of those such folks.* Relocated by the Military from Florida (this last go around), I now have a place for my own home and loft/s (woohoooo in my mid 40s and finally growing roots for the first time). Up until now, I have always helped others by 'road training releases' in FL. Watched the sport and heard the 'stories' from other middle seaboard, east coast racers and dreamed of such a day for myself... Finally I am setting up my own lofts... (We are completing our 3rd loft this week - weather permitting (rain is a pita for painting) ).

*Problem is* -- No one else here races! There was a race club many many oh God, many years ago about an hour or so from me, but they died off and couldn't keep it going due to few members, high gas prices, etc etc etc. So they got into 'Rollers" (no problems there, just that I have no one to 'play' with... )

*SO to me this idea of Postoffice racing is extremely appealing!* _ I love the idea of doing 1000 mile races and that is my ultimate (and primary) goal !! But to get there, I too need other "post office racers" closer to me to get to that goal. *SO IF you think you'd not have interest in POR because you have others in your area that can join a club YOU ARE MISTAKEN!!* Hopefully, this will strike a cord with some of you and see the NEED for this kind of racing. _

*I DO NOT want to One Loft Race* - I want my birds back upon release... 
Do you see where this REALLY fills a niche for many pigeon racers in a 'dying sport' who simply just can not move for the sake of racing?????


On the subject of split bands -- my position is:
you have to do what works the best for your personal club. Yes, over all there are some rules that may apply in some categories... I kinda see it as the difference between local law, state law, and federal laws when it comes to things. AND yes, States can and do, over ride some laws when it comes to doing what's best for them at a more local level....

Hope this gets more folks into thinking about the POR Concept for a multitude of reasons...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

AU or any other Org. Is not the down fall in racing or pigeon keeping. As People are of a different mind set In todays time. Less people are interested in keeping any type of pigeon THEN Race or show. There is and will be those sore losers Who get mad and leave the clubs because they do not win. . The hobby is still here And that counts. But the hobby is getting smaller


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

akbird said:


> So the way I understand what Shorty2 said is that their club doesn't "go by the rules". Isn't that the definition of "cheating"? Our club goes by the rules which the AU has published. If you are going to ignore one rule, you may as well ignore them all. I'm all for allowing as many guys to fly as possible, but, by the rules.


I think you are not familiar with the type of thing Shorty2 is talking about. He is talking about Post Office Racing. Not a regular club thing. Totally different that what you and I participate in.

Sometimes Shorty2 forgets to let people know what POR stands for.


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## Sevenof14 (Dec 4, 2010)

pigeon_racer said:


> Sounds more like a PETA sympathizer. These folks aren't dumb, they look at races as cruel. So how do you stop the cruelty without harming the animal? They're smart enough to know that if the bird can't legally race it won't. Perfect solution from their point of view.


Most birds are smart enough to stay away from PETA people.... My rescue Gloria loves almost everyone, and is very friendly... The only times she's shied away, they've actually been PETA people!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I know the AU rules.

But personally, I would not have a problem with anyone racing an un-banded bird in an old bird race. As long as it was not a money race, and as long as they paid their AU, Combine and Club dues. What could they possibly do that would be harmful to the club/combine? Beat someone who has a legit band on their bird? Big deal. Your pigeon got beat by a better pigeon. That is what this sport is about.

As to IF banded birds being raced in AU contests. They are legally recognized, and allowed by the AU. As long as a very small fee (I think it is $1.00 per bird) is paid to the AU, and they are registered with the AU prior to being raced in an AU sanctioned race. I have raced several in this manner, and won awards from the AU with IF banded birds.

The key is: They must be registered with the AU prior to being raced. I think it is a one time deal, paying the $1.00 per bird registration fee.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

shorty2 said:


> Excellent !!! I'll send you a PM to get your info so we can list you on the POPR member list and then I'll let the other members know you are willing to accept birds.
> 
> You are welcome to have any terms you want for the races you host. Like some people have talked about a $2 per bird fee to recoup expenses. If your local club members have an issue with POPR birds conflicting with AU rules, you could hold the POPR birds for 30 minutes and then release, that is allowed in AU rule 7.23 Another possibility is that you can host races that release from your back yard.
> 
> You have a prime location, this is going to make a lot of fanciers super happy to be able to fly. Can't wait to get you listed and tell everyone about your joining our cause.


Um,....how did you interpret my comment, as me volunteering to host a Post Office Pigeon Release program?

I said I would not have a problem with a split banded bird racing in my clubs old bird races.

I will consider your program, but I probably am not interested at this time. I hosted the 2012 Pigeon Talk Classic and it was a chore. I am still resting from that.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Regular races are on the weekends. I have a 150 and 250 this weekend. Then next week I have a 400 and 500.

Then for the next three weeks after those. We have special band races.

Weekends are going to be busy for about five weeks or so.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I know the AU rules.
> 
> But personally, I would not have a problem with anyone racing an un-banded bird in an old bird race. As long as it was not a money race, and as long as they paid their AU, Combine and Club dues. What could they possibly do that would be harmful to the club/combine? Beat someone who has a legit band on their bird? Big deal. Your pigeon got beat by a better pigeon. That is what this sport is about.


^^What he said.



conditionfreak said:


> As to IF banded birds being raced in AU contests. They are legally recognized, and allowed by the AU. As long as a very small fee (I think it is $1.00 per bird) is paid to the AU, and they are registered with the AU prior to being raced in an AU sanctioned race. I have raced several in this manner, and won awards from the AU with IF banded birds.


Yeah I did it for all of my IF birds a couple of years ago and it worked just fine. But the other club members, while they've been told that, well they just don't care and would never shell out $1 per bird to register them with the AU because - like I said - they just don't understand or care about the AU database or awards. And they are cheap as hell. Their priority for the most part is beating one another. Nothing wrong with that.

And Walt, you're a saint for clearly committing to hosting the next PT Classic. Will you take split bands?


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

shorty2 said:


> So would you guys consider letting some other fanciers fly with you by mailing in their birds? You are already helping to expand our sport, beyond that, think how cool it would be to make it possible for even more people to enjoy our sport -- and the effort it would take is very small. You have received birds in the mail before, it is that simple.
> 
> So how about it ?


I'll bring it up. I'm moderately interested. Just depends on the level of competition, the course, the distance, the time of year, etc. I doubt our club members would be interested. They don't like to spend money and don't think much beyond our own little race schedule. There are a couple who may be interested in the uber-long distance races, but there are probably only 2-3 of us who may have the birds for it (and I'm not one of them).


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Regular races are on the weekends. I have a 150 and 250 this weekend. Then next week I have a 400 and 500.
> 
> Then for the next three weeks after those. We have special band races.
> 
> Weekends are going to be busy for about five weeks or so.


Walt, sorry for taking this thread off course. Didn't intend to.

Good luck the next few weeks. We have our 500 this weekend and I'm very much looking forward to it. After that we only have a 400 left and we're done. Only 7 races this year.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

"And Walt, you're a saint for clearly committing to hosting the next PT Classic."


Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha 

Um, no.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

*What?*



conditionfreak said:


> Just for the sake of clarity. I DO NOT suspect my organizations members of anything. I am not sure if your post was directed to me or not. I suspect it was directed to another poster. But I wanted to make it perfectly clear how I feel about this situation.
> 
> The bands did not come off accidentally. They HAD to have been removed by a person. A person that is almost assuredly a pigeon keeper/flyer. Strange pigeons go into every pigeon flyers loft, now and then. It is a common thing.
> 
> ...


No, my post was not directed at you or any other poster. It seems everyone is quick to challenge just about anything. My point was trust, it seems that it's not there anymore!

What is POR?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

pigeon_racer said:


> I think you do club members a disservice when you begin to suspect the race handlers. The person or persons responsible for races, unless it's a contract driver, just want to race birds like the rest of us. If there is no real money involved in the race, just eliminating one bird from the competition doesn't do you any real good and for what a piece of paper! You're doing what the people that are against pigeon racing want you to do. Suspect each other, sowing discontent, causing animosity within the organization. If we don't stick together they will accomplish their goals for sure.


My mistake. I read your statement "I think you do club members a disservice...", as if your "you" meant "me". Or meant Silver Wings, as she (or he) made comments about fellow club members possibly being involved.

It would have been more clear if you had started your posting out as "I think when "someone", instead of "you".

My fault for misunderstanding. But inflection and tone are missing on internet postings. It may be in your head when you type it, but doesn't necessarily come across on the internet.

And yes. Many people jump too far, too fast, in their assumptions and butt hurt.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. There used to be time that when i would find plastic unmarked bands on birds, i would remove them. I thought that it was bothering the birds. I still cut those off but not the numbered bands. I have never raced birds. 
Question: when one finds a banded dead bird what should one do? Thanks.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

I really don't think the bands bother the birds...
Many use bands to signify specific things. Ie a bird that won a specific race, did best in a specific yr of racing, came from a specific loft, or even a 'team'.

Example: my white release doves, are banded by teams. This lets me pick those who fly the best as a group for a specific distance (I don't take the younger, less experienced, as far as my proven teams for farther events). This also makes it easier to identify my teams so no team is over worked in the heavy release season - I wouldn't want a bird flying hard day in and day out consecutively. 

Re a deceased bird with bands, I'd try an at least notify the owner. This gives some closure and an idea of what could have happened and possibly why.


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

hamlet said:


> Hello. There used to be time that when i would find plastic unmarked bands on birds, i would remove them. I thought that it was bothering the birds. I still cut those off but not the numbered bands. I have never raced birds.
> Question: when one finds a banded dead bird what should one do? Thanks.


You could go on one of the national organizations websites, American Racing Pigeon Union or the International Federation of Homing Pigeon Fanciers, and there you should be able to find out information on the band's number. This in turn will lead you to the club's name and the secretary of that club. There will be a contact number that you can call so that you can get the owner notified. I don't know about other fanciers but I wonder after a race when a bird doesn't come home, what happened and it would be nice to know. Thank you!


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

I have not read everybodys responses yet so maybe someone already suggested this. Do you think it is possible your bird was taken out of the race crate before the release? Is the oppurtunity there for someone to do it? Unless your OB racer has a habit of trapping at other lofts. If someone did do something of the sort you would think they would take their own bird to let it clock early for the win but doing so has alot of risk in my opinion. However doing what some punk did to your bird is criminal and also helps someone else win if you decide not to ship anymore. Hopefully this persons dirty tactics become exposed.

.


conditionfreak said:


> I have had missing birds from races, come home long after the race is over, with their "chips" (electronic bands) missing. And that is okay. I just look at it as a payment for someone else feeding my bird for a short while.
> 
> But yesterday, something different happened.
> 
> ...


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

pigeon_racer said:


> I think you do club members a disservice when you begin to suspect the race handlers. The person or persons responsible for races, unless it's a contract driver, just want to race birds like the rest of us. If there is no real money involved in the race, just eliminating one bird from the competition doesn't do you any real good and for what a piece of paper! You're doing what the people that are against pigeon racing want you to do. Suspect each other, sowing discontent, causing animosity within the organization. If we don't stick together they will accomplish their goals for sure.


I should of read all the post before i posted my last one. I agree with you most of the time on what you posted. I think its a diservice also like you mentioned when a flyer is not able to be for certain his race bird returning home with all its attachments. All the time and money invested in this bird are now all for nothing. Because of all the possibilitys of what could have happened to a race bird from shipping to returning home one would be a fool to accuse someone of this without any evidence. Its almost impossible to prove and that is why it would happen if it does. Even though ConditionFreak did not accuse anyone I myself would have to consider the idea of another handler doing it especially if the conditions exist to make it possible. As long as a club is following all the AU shipping rules we should not have to worry about it. But if not then you cant rule it out.


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