# Inbreeding



## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I have a hen that I bred that Usually do not breed that way. I bred a father to a daughter to get her. I have nothing else from her father's line and have no idea what line of bird he is, no ped. The hen is really nice and I am tempted to breed her back to her father who is also her grandfather. Any ideas, is this pushing it too far? Like I said I don't normally even breed father daughter. Jim


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Not knowing anything about the sire or dam could get a Freakinstien. Use a new cock on the new hen then breed back hen from this cross to original cock if u must. No matter what still to close. LET THE SIRE OF THE SIRE BE THE GRANDSIRE OF THE DAM ON THE DAMS SIDE ......that's really as close as u want to get. Ross


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

That is what I am doing right now. I have the sire with a totally different hen with two young, and the inbred daughter with a totally different cock with one yong, but I am tempted to try. The sire placed 8th in the GHC against about 10,000 birds, the daughter was my Flamingo International hen this past year and she did very well. I do not see where inbreeding hurt her at all but only made her better. I may try one round to see where it takes me, but only to breed from. Jim


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

If you do what your saying your either gonna get the best of the best out of the 2 or it could go the other way you could magnify the bad stuff in their background. But you'll never know unless you try. I have my White Bandit cock mated with his daughter which was also his grand daughter. Those babies never did anything in races but when I breed out of them they raise good racers.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Keep us posted. Ross


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

That is what I was thinking, give it a shot, I have a feeling about it. Inbreeding so far resulted in only one young, the hen I am talking about, and she is fantastic! I am line breeding Bandits, two White Bandit grchildren, the hen is also a grdaughter of Bingo. Bandits are a tough line, I have others as well, all race winners or directs. All I hear people say is that they are only good for short races, that is BS! Jim


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Ross I will keep you posted it is my bronze grizzle line, so in the future if you see them doing well for me... Jim


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jimhalekw said:


> I have a hen that I bred that Usually do not breed that way. I bred a father to a daughter to get her. I have nothing else from her father's line and have no idea what line of bird he is, no ped. The hen is really nice and I am tempted to breed her back to her father who is also her grandfather. Any ideas, is this pushing it too far? Like I said I don't normally even breed father daughter. Jim


If she is of excellent quality, and assuming he is also, then why not ? I have seen pigeons which were five generations of brother to sister, so if this pairing produces something of good physical quality, then from a breeding standpoint, you may end up producing something worth it's weight in gold ! Did I ever share with you my strain maker diagram ?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=371901&postcount=15


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Warren I saw the diagram of the different strains and the origins but I don't think that is what you are talking about, so probably not. Well I guess I should have clicked on the site first! Glad to have your feedback on this, thanks. Jim


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> If you do what your saying your either gonna get the best of the best out of the 2 or it could go the other way you could *magnify the bad stuff in their background*. But you'll never know unless you try. I have my White Bandit cock mated with his daughter which was also his grand daughter. Those babies never did anything in races but when I breed out of them they raise good racers.


Hey Pigeon0446 Guy,

First let me say, I am not an expert in this regard. I have spent years trying to read everything written about the subject which was pigeon related. But, that by no means means I have mastered the topic. Just say that all up front, in case I come off as a "know it all".

I do think, that people misunderstand to some degree, this inbreeding stuff. 
In very layman's terms, the whole purpose is to fix all these sets of genes within a line of pigeons, and in our case, let's just call them "winning genes".

If so called "bad genes" come to the surface, they were there the whole time. Rather then assume that the inbreeding process is not working, or is of no value, it is showing you what is within the bird's background. These birds with so called "bad genes" may occur more often, this simply means you don't breed from them, and you continue with your program only using the most ideal offspring. 

In the case of the 2nd or 3rd generation of father to daughter, you are stacking these "winning genes" on top of each other...again in very simplistic layman's terms. As you are able to progress to the next generation and still produce very ideal birds, the more valuable these birds become in terms of their breeding value. 

This process, in my personal experience, is very time consuming. The closer you get in terms of generations of inbreeding....the more challenges arise. The whole point in all of this IMHO, is to breed around a very special bird. To do this around a very typical bird, will not produce any real added value.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You might be ok inbreeding This father daughter mating AND then line breed the offspring Building a family line. Take off spring to other known good birds Test and keep the top birds Putting them back over outside birds PLUS direct decenents. Going fathere daughter for 3 generations I would be very cautious As you would be more prone to break down As father daughter generation 1 you get 75 % Of the cocks blood genareation 2 you have about 7/8 the cocks blood by third generation you would be getting a break down of tight blood Seeing reduced fertality In off spring reduced size and vigor. IN all mating you of coarse would still have to do selection. YOU can reproduce the birds features TYPE. BUT the mind and will the winning combo. You have to find Sounds like the hen Is a decent bird So you can use it in line breeding also GOOD hens are hard to come by so It should be used over your better cocks Finding that click. AND could look at a mother son pairing to bring more of the hen foward in number. Bandits are jannsen based birds And the brothers showed the world There birds could race any distances They just prefured to race a shorter distance never over working there birds.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I have tried three times to mate them with three sets of eggs, none fertile. Both birds are fertile with others so... Will try one last time because everyone else I would mate them to is paired and they should lay again any day now. Will keep posted.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

If I were you Jim, I would breed her back to her father/grandfather. Bringing in a cock is like bringing in a new line or "strain." If that mating is successful, then you can build around that pair.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

She has new eggs, this is the last attempt.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I candled her eggs today, both are good! I will soon see if it was too much or not.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jimhalekw said:


> I candled her eggs today, both are good! I will soon see if it was too much or not.


That's great news Jim! Keep us posted.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Warren 
I would like to see a diagram starting with two pairs. Either 4 non-related birds or two pairs of siblings. Brought to mind taking your two best pairs and building a line-breeding chart around those two pair. Seems like that might give you a bit more flexibility. Right now the majority of my birds are down from 4 foundation pairs. Gives a bunch of flexibility keeping the same traits, but not inbreeding or line-breeding too much. I have bred into the second and third generations, siblings of the originals. Just wanted to get your mind working and see what you come up with.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Both eggs are hatching together, good sign. I havn't been so excited over babies hatching in a while, maybe because this is my 3rd or 4th try with this pair with empty eggs. If they do well a whole new line is born!


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

That's awesome Jim! I hope they become champions!


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)




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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Is that the YB from that breeding? You have very pretty birds!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Warren
> I would like to see a diagram starting with two pairs. Either 4 non-related birds or two pairs of siblings. Brought to mind taking your two best pairs and building a line-breeding chart around those two pair. Seems like that might give you a bit more flexibility. Right now the majority of my birds are down from 4 foundation pairs. Gives a bunch of flexibility keeping the same traits, but not inbreeding or line-breeding too much. I have bred into the second and third generations, siblings of the originals. Just wanted to get your mind working and see what you come up with.


 I shared this one once before. To keep it simple, this chart only shows one pair. If you start with more then two pairs, then you simple use this chart for every pair you start with. Seem simple enough. The challenge is getting through the various generations with exceptional specimins. Those one or two out of a hundred which are well...exceptional. That's the challege, could take you a decade to move just a few generations.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I shared this one once before. To keep it simple, this chart only shows one pair. If you start with more then two pairs, then you simple use this chart for every pair you start with. Seem simple enough. The challenge is getting through the various generations with exceptional specimins. Those one or two out of a hundred which are well...exceptional. That's the challege, could take you a decade to move just a few generations.



If you use your imagination, you could bend this chart and use the hen with several males, and then breed her back to her sons. Most concepts use the male because it is more easy. This chart can be three dimensional. You indicated two pair, the reallity is, you could use one hen and three males. Just wanted to throw something out there, where one thinks outside the box we typically get pushed into.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Warren by the chart this hen is number 8. Her sire is her grand sire and great grand sire. I just sent two nest mates of the original sire bred to his daughter to the World Ace Challenge. Looked like a cock and a hen, we'll see how that plays into things. Now that I think about it, the other two nest mates I sent are half brother and sister, but from a different family. The dam of those two is my 2009 World Ace hen. I don't predetermine what birds to send, I just handle the babies and send the ones I think are the best. Some families that I have tried to breed close do not have what it takes and some do, and the ones that don't don't stay.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

The hen I got and posted a pic of five posts back is mated to a HVR. He is a double grandson of Cinnamon. Their baby is marked like her but black/grey where her color is.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Inbreeding is neither inherently good or bad. It can be a useful means in concentrating desired genes in resulting offspring. In the case of racing pigeons what is being striven for is to improve race competition performance and/or to advance the performance abilities of the progeny going forward. These are easily measured if you, in fact, race your birds in competition. However, it may be possible to measure this within your own colony of birds. In essence in your own individual one loft race competitions.
There is no such thing as too inbred or too close bred, if the desired performance criteria is improving. One must be mindful that all birds produced from any pair are not going to be so to speak stamped from a mold. There may be marked difference even between nestmates. The loft manager has a responsibility to eliminate those birds produced which are sub par from physical and/or performance standpoints. The basket may be a helpful tool in this culling process
If one adheres to the old adage that " the proof is in the pudding" he will be well served. If the recipe does not produce desired result, then it is wise to alter the recipe.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I just posted a pic of her baby in my album, he in now my first pic and looks like a bald eagle.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I shared this one once before. To keep it simple, this chart only shows one pair. If you start with more then two pairs, then you simple use this chart for every pair you start with. Seem simple enough. The challenge is getting through the various generations with exceptional specimins. Those one or two out of a hundred which are well...exceptional. That's the challege, could take you a decade to move just a few generations.


I have the same diagram in with the hard copy of my records. I was going to post it in this thread but you beet me to it Warren.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I came across an old file today titled "One last word". It was written by my friend Bob Rowland just before he passed away and it was a discussion with another man about breeding. They had different views and Bob asked why the other fellow had just gotten 12 birds from Europe if what he had was so good.The very last sentence Bob wrote " it is hard to make soup palatable once it has been defecated in". Thought I'd share words of a great pigeon man.


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