# Zara's BLOCKED!!



## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I came home from work today to find zara's vent blocked with poop! I cleaned it off and the vent opening is red, inflamed and a bit of blood. There was more poop inside that she couldn't push out so I took most of it out with damp/warm Q-tips. I wraped her up in a warm blanket propted her upward so she could poop. She puffed her head up and looked like she was going to vomit but didn't. She tried to poop but nothing came out. She looks very tired and weak.
OMG What DO I DO!!??
I can't loose her right NOW!!
Help PLEASE!!
Hilary Dawn Sealy


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2007)

This is called pasting of the vent and if it's not due to bad hygiene, it's usually due to kidney disease. If you have a broad spectrum antibiotic on hand, use it.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi all,

This is not my forte, but from searching through past threads, on some occasions a pasted vent was due to canker of the cloaca.....

Is this a possibility and if so, should the bird be given meds for this condition just in case? Or would it be irresponsible to just throw meds at a "supposed" condition?

Hilary may have access to meds because of her job.

Just throwing this in there as a thought......will let more knowledgeable minds give the real advice.

Linda


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

For the past few days Zara has been refusing to use her feet to walk so I put her in a blanet with it tucked up before her vent so she can poop good. But something went wrong today! I checked her before I left for work and she was fine, eating and drinking and responding when I talked to her, just like everyother morning. I had thrown out her last sling so I'm making another one right now. Her feet are starting to clentch up again I just noticed! OMG! One thing after another! I don't have any antibiotics on me but I'm taking Colton to the vet tomorrow to get fixed so maybe I can ask her for some meds.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I didn't see any canker when I looked in the vent! She's looking alittle more alert now! But still kinda' sleepy.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Thank You GOD!! She POOPED!! It's really watery and smelly and the tinest bit a blood, but she pooped! should I put some mineral oil in her seed?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You don't get blood in poops for no reason. I don't know how you can tell what it is without lab tests, though. Given that you're... where you are, you might have more than average trouble getting stuff. Can you get Baytril, Metronidazole, Appertex (or some other anti-coccidial like Corid which is Amprolium) and Keflex? Shoot, just tell us what you KNOW you can get...

Pidgey


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

the blood wasn't in the poop it looks like the vent opening tore a bit from what I can see. I do have Metronidazole out in my shed from when Marvin had some canker in his mouth. Also like I said I'm going to a different vet (not my usually crazyly over priced vet I go to) tomorrow to get Colton and a cat from the shelter fixed tomorrow. I had dealings with her before so I think I can get some Bydril from her if she has it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> Thank You GOD!! She POOPED!! It's really watery and smelly and the tinest bit a blood, but she pooped! should I put some mineral oil in her seed?


Did the odor have a 'sour' smell to it and other than the blood-spotting
what color were the feces?

I'd get the bird started on the Flagyl/Metronidazole.

fp


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2007)

For the past few days, your bird has been ill so the use of antibiotics has been seriously delayed. I would start her on Metronadazole for anerobic bacteria and canker and I would also start her on Baytril.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

FP~ the poopers are a ronchy smell. They're pale green with some dabree or something like that in it. The blood isn't in the poop or on, there spots on the blanket, sorry not explaining myself better.
PigeonPerson~ I'm not sure if you know all of Zara's history. Her leg was broken when she was very young (and I being a newbie didn't know what to do cause I wasn't a member here yet until it was too late). Her foot clentch up and then the other foot did the same about 2-3 months ago. I had her in a sling with foot splints for God knows how long and then I took her down. She was walking okay then she stopped. She did have some days where she just didn't want to walk but the next day was fine but when it got onto 2-3 days I went out and got the supplies to do up the sling again (tonight actually now that I have time). Then this all happened. So it's not like I let a life threatening illness get out of hand. If she were sick I'd have gotten her to the vet ASAP. Zara only leaves my bedroom to take a bath in the bathroom which is right across the hall from my room. 
Right now I'm stressed out to the MAX! I've worked since the Thursday before last and I have to work tomorrow (12 days in a row no days off). I've get the head cold but I'm getting over it now. ALSO, I was going to post this today actually, I'm moving to Saskatchewan to work on a horse breeding and training ranch in 2 weeks time. So I'm freaking out over that! Now Zara's "spill" is stressing me out even more. If she dies I don't know what I'm going to do! Menal break out down or something to that extent I guess. Hopefully not!
HDS


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

OKAY, I just took a look over that her and she wakes up and tilts her head side to side as if she has water in her ears; she never did this before. She just croo-ed at me too just now.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't know what raunchy means, it's too subjective. But there's frequently 
a sour odor associated w/pigeon feces when canker is rearing it's head. This in addition to the feathers pasting up around the vent as Lin picked up on would 
be a good indicator. You didn't mention starting the Metronidazole and I would
hope this is something that you could do this evening. Even if in the throws of a mental breakdown--you'll just have to stop, give the meds--and pick up where
you left off Hillary  

fp

Saw your additional post, is it possible for the bird to be seen 'on-the-house-
where you work?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

The clinching of toes in the bad leg is understandable because there could have been nerve damage but the clenching of the toes in the good foot is not a good symptom. Birds that do this can have a metabolic disease. There are hundreds of these metabolic disorders so it's impossible to pinpoint this. If you want to try this, give her a Brewers Yeast tablet every couple of days. It's got all of the vitamin B complex in it and B complex is vital to proper nerve function. I'm not holding out any hope that this will work but it's worth a try. 
Keys, I'm plenty worried about this. There may not be any infection but a progressing metabolic disease. Your bird could use blood and fecal tests to rule out any kind of infection and it could cost a small fortune. It has to be your choice. There are no tests for metabolic disorders. If you can't test, then at least start antibiotics. They may not help but right now, they wouldn't hurt. The odor could be a bacterial source, a yeast infection, canker or a deteriorating gut from metabolic disorder. At least hit the canker and bacteria with what you have, Metronadazole. Try to get Baytril to give at the same time. Do you have any Nystatin for yeast? This is rough because if you suspect yeast infection, you can't give Brewers Yeast. It will simply make the infection worse.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Or perhaps pigeonperson's concern in addition to a stress related flare-up
of one of the 'host-equilibrium' conditions that has transitioned into a disease state.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hilary, the fellow I know that makes the 'snowboards' for 'stringfeet' pigeons
lets them actually bear weight on the foot while it's rehabilitating.

fp


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

FP~ I took another quick smell and it does seem to be "sour."
"Saw your additional post, is it possible for the bird to be seen 'on-the-house-
where you work?"
what do you mean by that?!
PP~The other foot clentched up because she wasn't use it but I will try the brewer's yeast non-the-less to see what will happen.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, remember that smell and see if it doesn't go away with the Canker
medication, it should. By on-the-house I mean will your place of word (thought you were at the shelter) look at the bird @ no charge?

fp


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

fp,
I don't know what is going on here because of the multitude of possibilities. My sister in law lost her cockatoo, Sammy when he was less than a year old. The first symptom was foot clenching. She thought it was cute and that it was because Sammy didn't want to go on her hand. When I heard this, I probably turned white and told her to get Sammy over to a vet asap. The next symptoms were loss of weight, throwing up and loss of balance. There was metabolic disease and they had to put Sammy to sleep.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Keys,
Don't use Brewers Yeast unless you get a test for yeast infection. These are all possibilities not diagnosis. Can you at least get a test for yeast infection? It's a simple gram stain from a dropping? You really need a vet to rule a lot of things out.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I've randomly decided to just take Zara to the Vet with me tomorrow and beg her to take a look at her. I have to watch my money more closely now that I'm moving away. The cats had this appointment booked for a month now so I might as well make due with it. The vet I usually go to I know he'll take one look at her and say some lame thing and put her on 3 different meds and blood and fecal test and he'll charge me $450+. I'll take some feces to work tomorrow since we have a microscope there. So for now I'll put her on the Mat. .


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Hilary,
I sent you an email with the same post. Don't use Brewers Yeast unless you can rule out yeast infection by a vet.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Ya I can get Amey, our Vet Tech, to take a look at her but she's not working tomorrow and Amey doesn't know too much about birds. 
The MAT actually comes from work so they don't mind at all (we have quite a few bottles of it actaully). 
I wont put her on the yeast PP.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm glad you got my message. As the fact pattern emerges, we have to change our approach.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> I don't know what is going on here because of the multitude of possibilities. My sister in law lost her cockatoo, Sammy when he was less than a year old. The first symptom was foot clenching. She thought it was cute and that it was because Sammy didn't want to go on her hand. When I heard this, I probably turned white and told her to get Sammy over to a vet asap. The next symptoms were loss of weight, throwing up and loss of balance. There was metabolic disease and they had to put Sammy to sleep.


pigeonperson, this is a possibility for Zara, I'm sure your hoping it isn't for 
Zara and Hillary's sake. Zara will still need to be watched for the known
devils in the meantime and hopefully you can help Hillary in figuring out
what the second clenched foot was about.

Hillary, did you closely examine the second foot that went into the clenching
mode to look for an imbedded object, puncture wound, inflamation of any
kind, general response of the toes to being passively manipulated?

fp


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Well I know why it closed up the first time, she wasn't using it. I tested her toes for re-acting yesterday and they're all good. There's no swell or anthing on either feet. I hope it not what PP says cause just the thought of putting Zara down brings tears to my eyes! Let alone doing it, eh! She looks so content right now fast asleep.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

fp,

I can't figure this one out. The clenched good foot could simply be limp toes. Infection can cause leg collapse. So what do we have?

Malodorous droppings: Yeast, canker, bacterial
Clenched toes: Metabolic, leg collapse from infection
Pasted vent: Sticky urine=bacterial infection in the kidneys, kidney failure
Blood in droppings: Cut from cleaning Zara off, intestinal bleeding=enteritis from infection, blood from kidney infection, Worms? Cocci?-I doubt it.

This is a male so female organs can be excluded

How can we possibly rule out anything without tests by a vet?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Hilary,
You're a realistic person. **** happens. The best thing you could do is get Zara over to a vet you trust. If G-d forbid, the worst happens, you have to know you did everything you could. Let's hope for the best and that this thing, whatever it is, can be stopped. This isn't the time to consider the worst. If that happens, worry about it then and we'll be there right with you whichever way this goes.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

PP Zara's a girl so exclude male organs.lol


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Zara's actually got an interesting history, Pigeonperson. She's got some badly formed legs and I think I can go fetch something about that. She's handicapped, though. It wouldn't take much of an infection for her to collapse the other leg, too.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> *I've randomly decided to just take Zara to the Vet with me tomorrow and beg her to take a look at her.*


Hi Hilary,
I'm so sorry to hear about Zara.
Taking her into the vet is a wise decision.

Just a thought, in addition to the possibility of canker, do you think there might be the possibility of an egg issue going on? 

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can go here to kinda' get some history:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12993

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> 
> I can't figure this one out. The clenched good foot could simply be limp toes. Infection can cause leg collapse. So what do we have?
> 
> ...



Well, I did ask about a vet....

Pasted vent isn't only from a bacterial infection in the kidneys or kidney
failure.

Sour smelling droppings are canker-specific.

Clenched toes--only two possibilities?

Which are you saying you doubt in terms of the blood in the or around the
droppings?

fp

Yes, Cindy brings up a good point about the possibility of an egg from sight-
bonding.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I checked for an egg cause I thought the same thing but there was none.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> I checked for an egg cause I thought the same thing but there was none.


Good going, at least it's ruled out.

fp


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Pidgey,
Ok, Zara is a hen so an infection in the oviduct is also possible. Let's exclude metabolic disorder based on her history and the current malodorous droppings.
We still can't rule out bacterial, yeast or canker. Pasting of the vent is nothing to fool around with so right now, we know nothing.
Hilary, canker of the vent is called cloacal canker. It can present as a bad lesion around the vent. It doesn't have to be in the vent itself. Do you see anything around the vent that resembles a lesion of any kind? Take a good look under the feathers.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

fp,
Vent pasting can also be from liver problems. How much can we consider without tests?

Here are very good discussions on this. We can't pin down whatever Zara has with any kind of research. It's too broad. She needs testing.

PASTING OF THE VENT OR CLAGGED VENT:
Droppings sticking to vent area:
This is usually signs of Liver or Kidney problems and may be accompanied by the bird appearing very tired but eating normally. Other signs are huddlng, heavy breathing, and or weakness. The droppings should be looked at closely to check for possible blood stains meaning internal problems, or if just watery or mushy it may be related to diarrhoea from foods. It can also be caused by feeding the bird too much watery vegetables (lettuce) or spoiled food (causing a bacterial infection). You can clean this area with a 5% solution of lukewarm salt water and carefully clip the feathers away with scissors to help prevent the droppings from sticking there. Liquid paraffin can be given to help soften the blocked material and allow it to be voided if the vent seems clogged from inside and this can be found at vets or some pet shops. A vet should be contacted if the problem persists for more than a few days.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

The Rectum & Cloaca:
The large bowel or rectum (colorectum) is a short, straight structure, whose main function is reabsorption of water and all useful digestive soluble materials; it is helped in this by the proctodeum of the cloaca. The useful materials include bile, mineral salts, used enzymes, sugars, fatty acids, amino acids and vitamins. If an inflammatory process occurs higher up the digestive tract, not only will the flow of ingesta be quicker than can adequately be dealt with by the absorptive powers of the rectum, but also the inflammation may eventually spread to the rectal wall itself. An enteritis seldom remains limited for long to a short portion of the tract. Both acute and chronic inflammations interfere with absorption from the rectum, and diarrhoea results. Tumours of the gut wall are not common in birds, abdominal tumours which press on the gut or liver being more frequently seen. These may cause irritation, increasing the flow of gut contents, or more usually causing partial obstruction. In the case of a large tumour, retained egg, or cyst of the oviduct or other structure in the posterior half of the abdomen, pressure on the rectum or cloaca results in partial or complete obstruction of the gut. When there is a slowly developing structure such as a tumour, the muscles of the gut above the growing obstruction tend to enlarge in response to the extra work. The obstruction to the lumen of the gut results in impaction with faeces anterior to the obstruction, and soon leads to general abdominal enlarge. When straining occurs, the abdominal wall is liable to rupture and the power of the abdominal contraction is lost. This stage usually causes obvious respiratory difficulty. The rate of breathing may increase, panting may occur, and abnormal, fluid-like clicking sounds may be heard in the chest on auscultation. Complete constipation may occur or faeces may be passed in small amounts and be infrequent, depending upon the severity of the obstruction. Sudden obstruction causes considerable straining and distress. Successful palpation of the obstruction is often impossible. Continuous pressure must be avoided because it will kill the bird by causing interference with respiration and blood circulation.
Sometimes the masses of faeces in the cloaca become very sticky owing to the absorption of moisture. The impaction then becomes difficult to void and may cause pressure on the gut, reproductive or urinary tracts. Liquid paraffin by mouth is the most useful simple remedy.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

"Pasting of the vent" is the result of a disease causing diarrhoea or excessive excretion of urates, and is not a disease in itself. The "paste" can be composed of abnormal faecal or urinary products. Excessive brooding, incubating in wet or dirty nests, poor diet and hygiene, can all play a part in producing this unpleasant condition. At best it is a sign of some defect in diet, hygiene, or other aspects of husbandry, but in most cases it is a portent of disease about to show-itself in some other way. First, one should eliminate the simpler and less harmful possibilities and then consider the various infections. In uncomplicated cloacal inflammations and diarrhoea due to dietetic disorders, all that may be necessary is simple bathing of the vent, liquid paraffin by mouth, the use of an enema (under professional advice only), and attention to diet and hygiene. In other cases, the casual agent must be found and appropriate treatment given.
"Vent gleet" is a chronic inflammation of the vent or cloaca, particularly in the laying domestic fowl and occasionally in the male birds. It is characterised by necrosis of the mucous membrane which becomes covered with a yellowish layer of dead epithelium. The lesion gives rise to a very unpleasant odour and starts with swelling and reddening of the mucosa. The exact cause is not known, but since the greatest number of victims are laying birds, metabolic or stress factors may be involved. Although various bacteria may be isolated from affected vents, none are apparently capable of producing the disease without a predisposing cause. Only a few birds at a time usually become affected. Diarrhoea with "pasting of the vent" may occasionally be a contributory factor. Although this is primarily a disease of poultry, cage birds sometimes develop clinical signs which are indistinguishable.
"Constipation" is the name given for the excessive dehydration of the faeces in the rectum and cloaca which causes partial or complete retention. Contrary to common belief, this seldom occurs to a serious extent, unless a mechanical obstruction has held up the faeces in the first place. In other cases the cause may be due to an excess of fibrous material or grit in the diet, poor tone of the muscles in the bowel wall due to inactivity or obesity, or "pasting of the vent". Prevention and treatment are self-evident, an oily laxative being most helpful .


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Prolapse of the Rectum:
Prolapse of the rectum is usually the result of, or in association with, enteritis of some severity or duration, which produces straining. In some cases the pressure from an enlarged organ or an abnormal structure such as a retained egg, tumour, cyst, or a ruptured or distended abdominal wall is the cause of the straining. This may result in the cloaca being turned inside out and either the oviduct or rectum, or both, also being partly everted and visible. The treatment requires the services of a veterinarian and is usually surgical in nature.

DIARRHOEA:
Diarrhoea is not a disease but a clinical sign. It simply refers to the voiding of fluid faeces. It can be caused by irritation or infection of the gut resulting from eating unaccustomed or contaminated food, watery foods such as lettuce or too much fruit, and drinking excessive amounts of milk or oily liquids. The watery urate fraction of the droppings is often mistaken for diarrhoea. Excessive amounts indicate urinary upset and not an alimentary disease. Diarrhoea can also be caused by pressure from a tumor of a gonad or kidney, liver damage, visceral gout, parasitism, a localized bacterial infection or even a change of environmental conditions or feeding routine. You should consult with a vet if any condition persists for more than 2 or 3 days.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> I checked for an egg cause I thought the same thing but there was none.


Thanks for the heads up Hilary.  
As fp said, that rules out one possibility  

Cindy


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

ENTERITIS:
See Bacterial Infections for more info on Enteritis, Salmonellosis, Avian Cholera, Pseudotuberculosis, Streptococcal Infections, Staphylococcal Infections, Erysipelas, Tuberculosis, Mycoplasmosis.

Enteritis is the inflammation of part or all of the gut behind the gizzard. Although the symptoms of enteritis may resemble psittacosis, enteritis doesn't present a danger to humans. The droppings from enteritis are usually light green in color and are very smelly. The one intestinal infection of Budgerigars that can be transmitted to humans is the type caused by paratyphus bacilli. Laboratory work is needed to make a differential diagnosis. Standard enteritis is an intestinal infection, and affected birds exhibit a sticky, green diarrhoea. Birds with serious cases are deathly ill. Enteritis is highly contagious and in a single aviary you can have dozens of cases at the same time or close together. There are known instances where a breeder lost his entire stock inside several weeks. Early symptoms are dull looking feathers that tend to be loose. The sick bird flips its tail from time to time, sleeps a lot with half-closed eyes, and is listless and depressed. It breathes laboriously and seems to lose all fear of man. The diarrhoea is a later symptom. When it occurs, the bird spends a lot of time on the cage bottom. Producing droppings appears to be difficult, and accompanied by hefty movements of the tail. The cloaca seems to evert, and the feathers around it show the same stickiness as with psittacosis. Sometimes the droppings contain blood. If that happens, it is a sure sign that an intestinal illness is involved. If diarrhoea is accompanied with nasal secretions, then the problem is more likely to be psittacosis. You should take the bird to a vet if you suspect enteritis. In any case, the ill bird should be quarantined. I recommend isolating any sick bird, in a hospital cage, you will be able to study the symptoms calmly, and you will eliminate the chance of infecting other birds. If enteritis is suspected, thoroughly disinfect the cage of the suspect bird. Use Lysol or Chloroxylenol or chloroxylenolum (UK spelling). Bathe the bird itself in Chloroxylenol as well. Be extremely careful not to let intestinal diseases spread.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

THE DUODENUM AND SMALL INTESTINE:
These organs are erroneously believed by many aviculturalists to be the seat of over half of the ills that affect birds because loose droppings are a common sign in digestive disorders and many diseases which are not confined to the digestive tract. These diseases are frequently lumped together, being referred to as "diarrhoea" or more often as "enteritis", the two words being used interchangeably by bird keepers. Diarrhoea is not a disease but a clinical sign. It simply refers to the voiding of fluid faeces.It can be caused by irritation or infection of the gut resulting from eating unaccustomed or contaminated food and drinking excessive amounts of milk or oily liquids. The watery urate fraction of the droppings is often mistaken for diarrhoea. Excessive amounts, however, indicate urinary upset and not alimentary disease. Enteritis is the inflammation of part or all of the gut behind the gizzard.

THE GIZZARD:
The gizzard is a tough structure and resistant to the enzymes and acids produced by the proventriculus. (glandular or forestomach) In the gizzard of omnivorous and seed-eating birds a great deal of pummelling and grinding of food occurs aided by grit which is normally present in this organ. The ingesta or partially digested food emerges as a pulp of fine particles of gruel-like consistency and is still strongly acid. In weak, debilitated birds the ingesta may be incompletely pulverised on entry into the duodenum, (part of intestine) where it is then liable to irritate the openings of the bile and pancreatic ducts thus leading to digestive disturbances. If a foreign body, such as a coin, button, nail, staple or small piece of wire is swallowed, it may cause no trouble until it reaches the gizzard, where it tends to be retained, in the same way as grit. Round objects cause a mild, chronic "gastritis" or ven-triculitis, which may not prevent the bird from living a relatively healthy life, but may cause occasional brief bouts of indigestion.

Sharp or hooked objects tend to bury their ends into the gizzard wall during contraction of the organ, probably causing pain and perhaps resulting in loss of appetite and consequently weight. Sometimes a sharp object will perforate the gizzard wall and cause peritonitis and death. Unfortunately x-ray examination does not always differentiate between foreign bodies and the shadows cast by grit in the gizzard. When a foreign body is strongly suspected an operation for removal is not to be embarked on lightly, even by an experienced veterinarian, because this is usually very difficult and the chances of success are low. Erosion of the horny lining of the gizzard does not appear to be as common in cage and aviary birds as it is in poultry, but it may result from a lack of vitamins such as vitamin A. In waterfowl and occasionally other species, gizzard worms produce severe erosions. Gizzard erosion can be suspected in vague illnesses accompanied by indigestion and loose, greenish, mucoid and intermittently bloodstained droppings. Distension and flabbiness of the gizzard musculature occurs mostly in debilitated birds, especially when the exit into the small intestine is impacted with hard fibrous ingesta. Such an obstruction soon causes depression, loss of appetite, and soft droppings which rapidly become smaller in amount, and are passed progressively less frequently. If the condition is not relieved, death can result from toxaemia even before the effect of starvation is felt. Birds affected in this way are generally those kept in planted aviaries or where little food and an abundance of coarse fibrous material is present. Liquid paraffin given slowly by mouth in liberal amounts using a dropper (10-20 drops per 100 gramme body weight) is the most effective and safest treatment. This tends to ease and soften the obstruction, and soothe the mucous membrane of the gut. Diagnosis is difficult and has to be based on careful observation, and consideration of all the circumstances.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Many different infections of the intestines will cause sour smelling droppings. Never mind how bad they smell when they've been sitting on the nest for 12 hours.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Pidgey,
The postings I made a couple of minutes ago point out the need for a very qualified avian vet and a couple of thousands of dollars.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

well unfortunatelly there is no avain vet around. nearest one is now in Montreal (about a 10hour drive away). Well it's good that the cats have to go to the vet tomorrow and I can just slip her in .


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The times I've had pasted vents have often been with hens that have had their husbands not let them leave the nest and they've gotten dehydrated. That sometimes gets them just generally sick. Seems to me that in the lightest cases, water and rest have done and in others it's been Baytril, Met and Keflex. It just depends on what I see in the microscope.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, Pigeonperson, I know. Of course, those are probably New York prices. I got that surgery to remove Winter's oviduct for only $45, remember? Anyhow, like Keys said--she's in the end of nowhere out there on New Brunswick. Bad place. Shooting blind is about going to be her only option.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Hilary,
Any vet can do a gram stain for bacteria and yeast and provide you with medicines for them. All he needs are the droppings. You have Metronadazole for anerobic bacteria and canker so that's covered. He can figure out the doses by weighing Zara plus you have about 500 people here who can recheck the dosages.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, my vets have never done a Gram-stain for me. That's why I've had to learn to do them myself.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually, pp, I referred to your first statement about vent pasting attributing
it to one thing. Thanks for all of the excerpts although I don't know where this
voluminous material came from. Is this from personal notes, pp?

There is a specifically sour smell that is associated w/canker....maloderous covers quite a range of odors many of them bacterial or coccidiosis related.

Here's an interesting quote:

PASTING OF THE VENT OR CLAGGED VENT:
Droppings sticking to vent area:
This is usually signs of Liver or Kidney problems and may be accompanied by the bird appearing very tired but eating normally.

There are viruses that move through the liver that require no medications
per se. 

I agree that Hillary needs a qualified vet to have a look at her pigeon. I really
don't know how much good posting many frightening scenarios of what could
be wrong w/her bird will get. Then to say it's either thousands of dollars
or let's pull out the shotgun and BANG BANG....hit the bird w/everything
because we just plain don't know. Is this really what rehab is about?

fp


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Just gave Zara a big swig of water with the Mat. in it. It's 11pm and I really have to get to sleep cause I have to go to work then off to the vets office tomorrow!
Talk to you all soon!
HDS


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

fp,

Regarding that rhetorical question, I think it sometimes is. It just depends, you know. In this case, it's Zara, and she means a lot to Hilary. I've been to the vet so many times that I've seen how often they take potshots. They're not clairvoyant and they know doggone good and well how tough it is to get exact sometimes. Shoot, my doctor even does the same thing with me based on what he's seeing going through the clinic at various times.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> Just gave Zara a big swig of water with the Mat. in it.
> *It's 11pm and I really have to get to sleep cause I have to go to work then off to the vets office tomorrow!*Talk to you all soon!
> HDS


Wishing you & Zara a restful night Hilary.  

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When you factor in that when a bird shows symptoms that it may have very little time left, you'll do what you have to do if it's one of your chosen children. If the meds don't clash, then fire as wide of a spread as you can get. And even add probiotics for good measure.

Pidgey


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Pidgey said:


> fp,Zara, and she means a lot to Hilary.
> Pidgey


Zara means the WORLD to me!


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

fp,
I wish my memory retention was that good. Here's the link. It's an excellent site:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/davehansen/enter.html


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I know. And were your circumstances different, I might give different advice. But I well understand what you're dealing with. There are sometimes circumstances that force one to take a different tack.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Hilary Dawn,

I was thinking it might not be a bad idea to to start this bird on lactulose. It will help support the liver, detoxify and soften the droppings.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1459&articleid=3263 , there's lots more information on it if you search as well.

The dose would be .20cc per 100 grams. You can buy it at any Shoppers Drug Mart, they keep it behind the prescription counter, but you do not need a prescription for it and it's about $15.00 for a large bottle.

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I hope that all goes well at the vet's today.

Whatever the cause of the blockage she will benefit from being on a heat pad, a couple of drops of liquid calcium (whether or not she is egg bound that strengthens the muscles) and a couple drops of Liquid Paraffin (I think you call that Mineral Oil).


Cynthia

PS: Sorry Ron, your post appeared while I was typing so I missed it!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On the note of droppings with a sour smell, I suppose we ought to try developing some better descriptions of those. One kind of sour is "sulfurous", which I normally associate with a bacterial enteritis. The bad smell that I've learned to associate with Coccidiosis is different and it often accompanies a massive diarrhea that's more of a catarrhal discharge than solids, like snotty water. That smell is more metallic or some other description that I can't find a word for. Most of the time when I smell that odor, I'm reaching for the Amprolium (Corid) after the lab. Admittedly, I haven't tested one for canker of the cloaca (checked microscopically for trichomonads) and if anyone has, do you have a word for that odor?

Pidgey


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Got back from the vet and she couldn't do anything. She doesn't have Bydril on hand because it's too expensive for her small clinic. I got home took her out of the carrier and there was blood bubbling out of the vent. I wiped it and called the vet I usaully go to but he was closed. The other vet told me to keep her on the Mat. and put some vasoline around the vent to protect the tissue and to give her a bit of an asprine if she's not bleeding. My mom and I were just talking and she thinks that the intial blockage must have riped something inside because when the blood was coming out there was some blood clots. But she does seem more fister and perkier than yesterday.
Well if there are no improvements tomorrow she's going to my usual vet since I have the day off tomorrow. Well actually I'll be taking away if I can get an appointment! My poor baby!

Pidgey~ her poops smell like a miture of sulfur and aumonia.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tell you what you need to do, kid--you need to get you some Baytril just to have around. Foy's sells "Enroxil" which is a generic version but the same stuff. It's a 10% solution and 100 milliliters is $30 USD. That usually lasts me for over a year. I don't know how tough it is for y'all to get the stuff but you can ask Jaz about it.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

I have ordered from Foy's, Siegel's and a few others. They usually warn you that there is a chance that the order may be held up at the border because some of the meds do require a prescription, but I have never had a problem.

Here are a few links:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/misc_meds/index.html#Baytril
http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog.html

Hope this helps,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the pm, Hilary.

Pidgey, I know Hilary loves Zara because of what Hillary expressed herself. This I don’t need an interpreter for, I was simply a bit appalled that every possible illness that you and pigeonperson could think of was being put on the
table as a possibility for Zara. 

I don't go to an avian vet for their ability to read Tarot cards, I go looking for 
expertise that came from focused studying on a specific area of medicine. Even if they aren't the best on the block, I know that their experience of studying veterinary medicine isn't going to be a complete wash for me and I have tried to make the best of my time w/them to learn something from the visit.

I can only imagine if I walked in the door & told the vet how upsetting it was for me that my bird was sick and he or she then callously proceeded to list every possible problem that it might be in great detail. When done w/the
list they looked at me and said it would be a few thousand dollars and/or
pump them full of every drug that would cover every thing under the sun.
I don't believe I would return to that doctor in all good conscience.

I'm well aware of the many problems there are when trying to help a member
find their way through a health crisis. Being helpful can still be accomplished even when being sensitive to how things feel on the other end
of the internet, JMO.

And lastly, the term 'sour' is one that I have only read associated w/canker.
I know the smell very well, as the majority of my birds have come here with
it. I always know when they are relapsing because of this very distinct
smell as well. It is different than nest duty droppings, bacterial infection
or coccidiosis--it is truly an odor of it's own. When droppings don't smell pleasant I don't frivolously place the term sour on every malodorous dropping--it is canker specific, period the end. Regardless, we all know that Flagyl is also a good choice for anaerobic bacteria as well. Here's a link for edification:

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html



Hilary, good luck w/your vet visit, I hope that Zara get's the attention that 
she needs and very much deserves.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Hillary, 


I have had at least one Pigeon who while having lost the use of her Legs, was suffering from her Vent getting clogged also...but she had a decent appetite at any rate, in spite of it. I kept her in a sling.

The obstructions in this case, in the Vent, 9 and over hours, her Vent would become terribly distended as it got fuller, ) were actually hardening in there, and I eventually concluded they were Egg-Shell process occurring in the Vent, mixed with poop, and had a rather hard mineral-like way about them.

This Bird for a while was only pooping once a day and of course it was bad smelling and had various consistancys to it...but I had to keep cleaning out her Vent in order for this to happen...in order for her to poop at all.

Anyway, I mention this in case you are seeing anything which might be like greyish-white minerals that are hard, forming in there or in with the other contents, as this would suggest something have gone amiss with the Egg-Shell making process.

Legs of course can go out from Kidney inflammation...

If a bacterial enteritis had contaminated or migrated up into her Oviduct it could certainly make for some unusual troubles.

Thats about all I can think of to mention...

So sorry her and you are having to deal with this...

Good luck..!

Keep her warm...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Hilary,

If the vet didn't have Baytril then she could have given you another antibiotic like Clavamox which is also a broad spectrum antibiotic. Or maybe issued a prescription that you could have filled elsewhere (I don't know how things work in Canada, that is what would happen in the UK.)

If you can't get to the other vet maybe you could phone the first one and ask if she has any Clavamox. If there is a tear in that area it is likely to get infected with poops.

I hope that your own vet is able to put things right.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

fp,
You're probably right in saying in your own way, that I went overboard and I do apologize if I did. I post the way I am in the real world. There's no difference. When I get a bird in, my mind races, ruling in and ruling out all kinds of possible reasons for what I'm looking at and what to do about it. I do the exact same thing on the web but it's probably the wrong thing to do because I don't have the bird in my hands and also, because I forget that the person who owns the bird is scared. Sometimes, I use a thread to post what I think is related information that I find on the internet and whether it's applicable in that circumstance or not, it can be taken to be what I didn't mean it to mean.
I'm not sure how to change this in the future but I'll try to be more cautious about it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Pigeonperson, I think one of the overall messages that you were trying to get across was that it's nice to have a good vet on tap when particularly disturbing symptoms present because tests sometimes need to be run. I think what I was trying to convey is that if a person is truly isolated, then it's best to have a few standard medications on hand for those inopportune times when it starts hitting the fan. I also don't believe that I had anything in particular in mind, I was just trying prod more information out of Hilary by suggesting more specific language and description. To me, the word "sour" is not specific as it applies to, amongst other things, many fermentation processes, some from yeasts and some from bacteria (like sour milk). It is fairly often true that an infection remains a mystery to even the best and that is often the reason for necropsies.

Pidgey


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

The vets around here are STUPID!!! He wont look at her! He said that it's now my responsibility and doesn't want any more of my birds in his office! I was crying and practicly begging him for some Baydril or Clavomox for this one last time but said "I'm sorry" and hung up the phone! I called the other vet in town and he said no and hung up too! Shadow (the female cat that got fixed yesterday) is on Amoxil 50mg she only needs 1/2 once a day for 6 days and I have 6 pills.... 
Zara is still eating and drinking like a horse tho, so that must be good. She's still very fisty and crys at me when I pet the cats and not her. There still some blood coming out but not as much as yesterday. She's still pooping, there tiny poops that have firmed up some and they actually don't smell as bad anymore. Mind you they still smell bad, just not as bad as yesterday. Maybe she did have canker and I never noticed till now. 
She's looking at me right now with those eyes of: "why are you sitting there with that cat and not over here petting and talking to me!"


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Hilary,

I think that the way you have been treated is appalling! I hope that, like me, you can find a vet that cares for all animals.

I use the 50 mg tablets , giving 1/4 tablet twice a day for 7 days but I have read about courses that are as short as three days. You have enough there for a 6 day course.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

Hilary,
It shouldn't surprise you that you need medicines on hand and you're going to have to send away for them.
Would you go to www.jedds.com and order the things you need to have in case of illness? I called Jedds for you and asked if they ship to Canada and they said they do. They put a label on the package, For Animal Use Only.

Here is what I suggest:
1) Baytril : 7.5 mg tablets
2) Medistatin: A powdered Nystatin that is mixed with water for yeast 
infections
3) Spartrix or equivalent: canker
4) Appertex Tablets: For coccidiosis


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Hilary,
Just checking to see how Zara is coming along.
I hope she's doing OK. 

Please post an update when time permits.

Cindy


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Sorry about the wait guys, Been very busy at work and home.
Ron (Jazz) was kind enough to send me some meds which I got yesterday and started her on it right away! Zara has been doing good these past few days, she started walking again and there is no more blood in her poop as of the night before last. The swelling has gone aways and she is back to her old ways, with some new.lol 
I would write some more but I have to run again. 
Talk to you all soon!
Hilary Dawn


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is wonderful news, Hilary.
Thanks for the update.

Bless you Ron. 

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well done, Hilary and Ron!

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hilary, how is Zara doing?


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Zara's doing really good. No more swelling, bleeding, or nasty poops. Her feet did clentch up again so she's getting splinted back up. But other than that she still has a love for life and is a fighter that's for sure!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thank you! I'm so glad she is doing well.


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