# Pigeon has watery diarrhea, question on Apple Cider Vinegar



## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

My 17 year old pigeon has very watery diarrhea. I believe it is caused by a new batch of Breeders Formula I give him as a supplement. I have used this, along with a mixture of pigeon/dove seed and pelleted Harrison's Adult Lifetime Fine for about 5 years, but just got a new can of Petimine Breeders formula today. Of course this would start very late at night where I can't call anyone, but you all were great when my bird had a problem last year, so thought I'd post for advice. 

I have changed out his entire cage, taken out the food I believe is the problem, and given him only the pigeon/dove seed and the Harrisons pelleted. I have replaced his water with water containing raw apple cider vinegar--2 tablespoons to a gallon. 

I have a question about this--how long should I give him this mixture of vinegar and water? I searched all through the forum, and also other pigeon websites, and I'm getting various answers--from leaving the water/vinegar mixture in his water container from 1 day to 4 days? If this doesn't clear up by tomorrow, what's best to treat watery diarrhea? The vinegar/water or something from the pet store like Ornacyn-Plus?

I'm worried about him, because he is certainly not a young chick, and any help would be very appreciated. Besides this problem, he's been fine--well, besides it's hotter than anything lately, so he has been walking around with his wings a bit down. This bird is kept inside in a very large parrot cage with his own box, so he's pretty spoiled, but I don't have AC in my house--I've never needed it until now : ( 

Thanks for any information anyone can provide.

Tracey
Worried in NC


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey, 



ACV-Water, made to the tune of say, Two or Three Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon of Water...a business week should be fine.


Can you post some ( good, in focus, close up ) images of the Poops?


How long have his poops been 'watery'?


And what kind of 'watery' is it? Clear? Opaque? Syrupy? 


Might be a Urate thing.


Is he making normal, White, paste-like Urates?



Is he drinking more than usual, also?


Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on watery diarrhea*

Thanks for the really quick response, Phil. 

This just started about 2 hours ago. Today I had to spray the house for fleas. I totally covered his cage with blankets,, and removed all food and water, and changed out his cage liner before I put him back in. He was in a pet carrier for around 4 hours in my office, totally away from all this, and his poops were fine in the carrier. I've done this flea spraying before, so I don't think that the spray is what is causing the problem. The only thing different was the new can of that breeder formula, and he was eating like a wild hog when I put him back in his cage.

At first, I noticed some big round seeds and some really tiny black seeds in a lot of water on his cage ramp. I watched him, and he seems to be drinking more than usual. Now the poops are like pure water. About an hour ago they were tinged with a bit of blood, but have now gone back to clear again.

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Taking some photos--will post in a few minutes.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The Flea Spray...if it was me, I would have open windows for 24 hours or more, much more even, before returning any Birds to the area.

Better yet, pull out and throw away the Rugs/Carpets...

I remember going into people's houses who'd sprayed for Ticks or Fleas, three or four days after, and it made me sick within minutes.

Some systems are less tolerant of certain poisons than others.


Open the Windows, get a Breeze going through...


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Close up:


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks, pdpbison.

I had all windows open, and fans in all windows for over 4 hours, and all the animals were no where near that part of the house when this was going on. I made really sure that there was no spray anywhere near his cage, and no odor at all when I put him back in it. The cage was totally covered for hours, and I changed out all papers etc before I put him back in. I'm really careful about this, but the dang fleas have been so awful this year, that I had to do something for the other animals. I used a spray that is supposed to be safe enough to put on baby animals and on animal bedding, which I didn't do that at all--but who knows???


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



This appears to be 'Bile' and only some fecal matter.


His digestive system may not be passing well at this point.


There are diffused White Urates, so I do not read this as a Kidney issue.


Any chance of images showing this morning or yesterday's Poops? And or, do you remember enough about them to describe?


This looks like some sort of haemoragic enteritis to me...but, there are many kinds, and, like all medical terms, it is simply a description of what is seen or decuded - in this case, bleeding in the lower intestines from infection or insult from some sort of micro-organisms or parasites...or, possibly ( if remotely ) from the Flea Spray.

What are the ingredients of the Flea Spray?



What Meds to you have on hand?


And, do you have a good Vet who could run a fecal analysis a.s.a.p. tomorrow? For which, you would want to preserve several of these messy poops, in some sandwhich wrap or in a tiny condiment cup, covered so it can not dry out, and kept in the frige.


I would with-hold Food for now...allow him his ACV-Water.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Some additional questions -


Had he been treated for Worms any time in the recent past?

Ditto...Coccidiosis?


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't have any of the old poops from when he was in the dog crate, but those looked very normal to me. Green with a bit of white around them. He has not been treated for worms or Coccidiosis. He's been really healthy for most of his life--well, besides when he had a prolapse and had to have a purse-string surgery : ( but that was around 8 years ago, and he's been fine since. All I have right now is some Ornacyn-Plus, but it's expired in 2006. Of course it's 3am here, so I can't run out and get anything...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Do you have a good Vet you could appeal to in the morning, for getting a general exam and fecal analysis?


The 'Ornacin Plus', has it been kept Refrigerated? ( Is it a powder or a liquid? )


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

the 'Flea Spray' - could you say what Brand or Label?

I could 'google' it and find the ingredients.


This sort of symptom is something I run into now and then dealing with Wild Pigeons.


But, the sudden onset, and the timing, with the 'Flea Spray' seems supicious also.


If this is a result of a Nerve Agent or Pesticide of whatever kind, the Antibiotics or their kin, will not help.


One would have to find the Antidote, if there is one.


If it is bacterial/oemebic/protozoal/coccidial, in provenance, then, various defential meds, would be called for, accordingly.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

There is a bird vet in town who did his surgery. I cut the fecal out of the paper, and wrapped the entire thing in plastic and it's in the refridgerator, so I will call first thing in the morning and pray that this guy is in town. He's the only bird vet for miles around that I know of. 

The Ornacyn-Plus is in solid pill form. It was not refridgerated but in a kind of tin foil pouches. It says it's good for respiratory, diarrhea and vitamin deficiencies. You put it in water for like 5 days. Used it years ago during similar situation where I couldn't get him into the vet on a Sunday.

It's 3:30 here, so I've got to drag myself into bed. Mr. Pidge seems fine, although still a bit of blood in watery poops.

Thanks so much for helping me through this. I'll update tomorrow as soon as I find out what is going on. This flea thing has been horrible here, and I pray that that is not what is causing this problem--especially since I was so careful about it...Very depressing to think I may have made him sick while trying to protect the other animals.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

The Flea spray is Mycodex Plus, prescribed by our vet. I used it about 6 weeks ago, doing the same procedure I did today. 

Ingredients:

Contains the botanically-derived insecticide LINALOOL
Active Ingredients

Linalool

1.000%

N-Octyl bicycloheptene dicarboximide*

1.000%

Nylar: 2-[1-Methyl-2-(4-phenoxyphenoxy) ethoxy] pyridine

0.015%

Permethrin**

0.200%

OTHER INGREDIENTS:

97.785%

TOTAL

100.000%

*MGK 264 Insecticide Synergist

** (3-phenoxyphenyl) methyl (±) cis/trans-3-(2,2-dichloroethenyl)-2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate

Cis/trans ratio: 35% (+/-) cis and max. 65% (+/-) trans.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...


I did some fast referencing...and, am not finding anything which would immediately implicate the 'Flea Spray'.

I just don't like the co-incidence though..!


Your exp 1994 Ornacin Plus...might be still good, might have gone bad....the Tetracyclines, when they go 'bad' can be pretty toxic...so, I would be uncomfortable with the gamble.


Otherwise, it would probably be a good choice for this...and or, it along with say, Metronidazole and maybe 'DIVIT'.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah, I don't like the coincidence either, although I did use this same spray around a month or so ago, using the same procedure I did today with no problems. I'm really wondering if I didn't overload him with adding in the new can of that breeding formula. It's the only thing different that I did. 

He's drinking alot now, and having most clear water poops with a bit of white in them. It looks like there is very little blood. I guess I will be up all night with him, as I'm scared to go to bed now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Yeah, I don't like the coincidence either, although I did use this same spray around a month or so ago, using the same procedure I did today with no problems. I'm really wondering if I didn't overload him with adding in the new can of that breeding formula. It's the only thing different that I did.
> 
> He's drinking alot now, and having most clear water poops with a bit of white in them. It looks like there is very little blood. I guess I will be up all night with him, as I'm scared to go to bed now.


Kiss him on the Head...and go to Bed, get some sleep.


He is a fairly tough old Pigeon, obviously, and, you and he will be better off with some shut eye, for tomorrow's continued dealings with this.

Glad he is drinking well...

As long as his Crop and system are passing liquids well, let him drink all he likes.


Call your Vet in the morning, and see about an exam for him, and, bring those poops for the Vet to do some analysis with...bring the 'Flea Spray' with also, just in case the Vet might have any insight on that possibility.


Might have been something 'wrong' with that new chow too for all we know.


There were many Pet deaths and damage organs from that communist red chinee 'Melamine' being in the ingredients which pet food mfgrs use.

That destroyed the Kidneys usually, but, likely had a syndrome and symptoms, but I am not up on what they were...your Vet might be up on what the syndromes would tend to be for that one.


Contaminated feeds are a possibility we all live with...our foods, and our pet's foods.



Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks again for helping me, Phil. I raised this boy bird from a few days old--his parents abandoned him when a freeze hit Florida in January, 17 years ago. His nest mate died, and he almost did, but I pulled him out of it, and we've been through a lot together ever since.

He's doing a bit of grooming, and drinking, but poops still have blood in them. With his age, he's had problems digesting things before, and sometimes he has bled like this in the past. I had to take him off grit altogether, and only feed him very small seeds with the Harrison's pelleted food, which is why I added in the Breeding Formula, as that is a powder. Thinking I may have to go to only pelleted foods now. 

I'll update tomorrow. Going to hit the couch and sleep in the living room.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...


I will check in once I am up-and-at-em in the morning.


"GMO" Grains are associated with Intestinal bleeding and Intestinal deteriorations, along with other pathology.

We have no way of knowing what various manufacturers use when composing feeds or grain based 'pellets'...nor do they always get what they thought they payed for in any given batch of materials.

Some of these do in fact create problems quite fast...and or they can alter the flora and fauna, so that the Creature's own Intestines are hosting Organisms which have absorbed the genetic instructions for making toxins or insecticides.

This has killed a great many Cattle in many places, where the Cattle were coerced into eating stubble left from GMO Grains, let along the Grains themselves, which the Cattle refuse to eat.



If he does not get occasional days of direct, ourdoor Sunshine, he can become Deficient in the Vitamin 'D'...and this can cascade into many problems.


Fresh tender Greens, cut up fine with Scissors...and also same with various Sea Weeds, are very good for them.

They need Iodine in a complete or Natural form ( as do we ) and supplimented foods almost never have the right kind.

Sea Weeds will have it.

Secdondary suppliments which provide certain enzymes can also be very good.

If the Thyroid is not nourished properly, all sorts of problems can result...as well as that the immune system is then weak then, as are the adrenals, so actual identifiable diseases can easily result where oitherwise they would not have.


It is possible his digestive issues are related to some of these things, or, to actual mundane ( if serious ) organisms making problems ( Coccidiosis, Worms, troubles with intestinal Flora and Fauna ).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom, so to hear your little one is not feeling well.

As Phil mentioned, my first thoughts would be some kind of bacterial enteritis and not so much the flea spray, especially with the way you laid out the precautions you took. The Ornacyn-Plus you have is Erythromycin and although the package expiry date is 2006, it may still be fine to use. A while back I did some reading on expired meds and saved this link, as I found it interesting (in my reading, again as Phil mentions, it was the tetracycline family of antibiotics where age could be an issue, but could fine no citations of harm caused by any other antibiotic classes, only cautions they may loose some of their potency). .

http://www.rense.com/general29/fom.htm

Best bet would be to get him into the vet early today and see what the vet thinks, if this is not possible I would start the Ornacyn-Plus until you can get him in and the vet will make a change in meds, but Erythromycin may be of some help until then.

Good luck with him and please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on Mr. Pidge*

This morning Mr. Pidge seems a bit better. Poops have no blood but still really watery, and his wings are also still hanging down. I called his regular vet, and of course he is out of town, and I couldn't get in until tomorrow. I asked for a referral and have an appointment with a new vet in town at 2:30 today. I just didn't want to take a chance with him.

The new vet seems really thorough--all kinds of forms for me to download and fill out, with in depth questions about his living environment, cage, toys etc. This vet can also also do behavior consults--which is a 6 page questionnaire! I don't have to do that one, but I downloaded it anyway, and from the questionnaire, this vet seems really into birds--a good thing : )

I'll post back this afternoon after the appt and let you all know.

Thanks again for getting me through such a hard night. I'm like a zombie today, but did manage about 3.5 hours sleep.

Tracey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Sorry if I missed the mention of it, but several days of probiotics can be helpful if the gut flora has been compromised.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



We will stay tuned!



Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on Mr. Pidge*

Mr. Pidge had his appt, and he is still at the vets until I pick him up around 6:00. Of course it went into having to do Xrays to see what is going on internally. He's got some things in his stomach that look like grit, although I don't hardly give him grit anymore because of his age, so I'm not sure what it is. The vet was concerned because his intestinal tract is hard to see on both Xrays--rather cloudy and not clear. She said this could be infection, which is what I am praying it is. 

She gave him a shot to settle any nausea he may have, as she believes that a lot of the watery substance I was seeing is vomit versus poops, although I never saw this. It's almost like when I put him his cage yesterday after being in my office for the flea spraying, he pigged out and possibly got impacted on the breeders formula that is like a powdery substance. She is going to put him on an antibiotic for the possible infection.

The weird thing is that yesterday in the pet carrier he had totally normal poops, so I'm praying that he just gorged on the powdery food and got some kind of impaction going that I'm praying his system will pass.

If anyone has any advice, please feel free to let me know. Like should I keep him on the apple cider vinegar while on the antibiotics? I'll check back on Pigeon-Talk after I go to pick him up.

Again, thanks so much for everyone who helped me and Mr. Pidge. 

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



Did she do - or is she going to do - a fecal analysis?


I do not believe the 'poops' you posted images of, represent 'Throw Up'.


They are entirely typical of a bleeding intestinal infection or infestation or possibly an intestinal condition arising from GMO or toxic contamination of feed...or from some order of entero-toxin or insult.

This in my mind is what was crucial for the Vet to narrow down.


I do not see an upper GI 'impaction' from powdered suppliments being a probable component here.


If this was a Wild Pigeon who I just got in and had some time to observe - 


I would...


Have him on the ACV-Water

Administer Metronidazole, 'Divit', and possibly a Tetracycline ( or Doxycycline ) or 'Baytril' maybe...with-holding Grit.

I would tube feed thin nutritious formula for a few days...seeing how things pass.


Subsequently, I would provide a Diet which allowd some sort of Natural Iodine and Vitamin A, and I would provide finely cut up fresh Greens.


Unless your Pigeon has had out of doors occasions for getting direct, unfiltered, Natural Sunlight, he likely is in need of this also.


If you can, call the Vet and see about the Fecal Analysis.

If this is Coccidiosis, Worms, or Bacterial, Protazoal, or Anaerobic, she should be able to tell at least roughly...and, this is pretty important, in order for the right Medicines to be determined.


If all of those come out 'negative', then that in itself would be important to know ( assuming one could trust the analysis! ).



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update back from the vet*

Well, back from the vet and nearly $300.00 poorer. I gave them the fecal samples--the ones I took the photos of last night, along with two from this morning, but the vet said there was not enough to test. I don't know about that, as there seemed to be plenty, but maybe it was because it soaked into the paper it was on--I couldn't get it off there late last night, so I sealed the whole thing in plastic. There was plenty in the plastic, so not sure why they were saying there was not enough. She did look at both samples and told me there was traces of blood in each, although I do not believe that they did a full analysis, or else they didn't charge me for it, which is pretty doubtful.

Here's what the did:
Metoclopramide IV Injection (for nausea)
Avian Exam
Subcultaneous Fluid 8 ccs
Digital X-rays (2)

I didn't see the vet when I went back in, just the tech who gave me Baytril Suspension and Lactulose Syrup. Both to be given twice daily for 14 days. The vet wrote instructions to reduce the Apple Cider Vinegar to 1 teaspoon per pint until after the meds were done. Also wrote that she may start him on Milk Thistle, and to use peanut buttor with lactulose. Wondering what kind of peanut butter is best? Guessing the kind that's ground at the health food store. 

When I got to the clinic, the tech told me that Mr. Pidge had just eaten on his own and they were waiting to see if he would throw it up. Around 20 minutes later, they told me he didn't, which is a good thing. When I got him home, he jumped in his cage and drank like crazy. I'm watching him now to make sure he is OK with that.

Again, thanks so much for all your time and effort in helping me. I may have jumped the gun with this new vet, but I didn't want to take a chance on waiting for my regular vet to get back into town--sick birds are just too small to wait.... 

I will review the last post for your recommendations too, and I'll post updates on his progress. For that price, I pray that Mr. Pidge makes it : )

Tracey and Mr. Pidge


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey, 



I find this Vet to be pretty disappointing...and likely she is not very experienced in dealing with these things.


I have no idea where she is getting the 'throw up' from, since it is not an issue here, nor is there any reason to assume the poops you brought were regurgitations!


Oye...



Anyway...

I would have him on Metronidazole in addition to the Meds she gave or provided...just to be prudent.


If he wants to eat, and his Gizzard is functioning well and he is digesting, then, great!


But, those images of the poops showed not much for fecal matter, hence, my concern about 'solid foods' for now.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I don't think you jumped the gun at all, as I see it, just to get Mr. Pidge stabilized and on a good broad spectrum anti-biotic like Baytril I think was important. The Lactulose will help flush his system and also aid him in removing toxins as well. There are other things that may have been nice, like Phil mentions, such as co-treating with some Metronidazole, but let's give the Baytril chance and see how things go. Where you mention him walking around with his wings down this is sometimes indicative of GI pain/discomfort and the Baytril is quite a good drug in the sense that a number of bacteria that can cause enteritis are sensitive to Baytril. Sounds like he is feeling a little better, than a little worse, which is a good sign, so please keep us updated on his progress.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Question on best thing to tube feed?*

Well, the poops are looking a bit better, he's drinking quite a bit, even looks more fuller in the croup area, but he is not eating like he should. Can either of you suggest a good thing to tube feed? I fed him baby bird food when I was hand-raising him, so not sure if I should get something like that? Please let me know if there is something I can buy at a pet store locally, as I may not have time to order online. 

Also, what's the best natural iodine? I have kelp in gel caps I take myself, should I use that, and if so how much is good for a pigeon? And, what kind of natural greens do you all suggest? 

And last question: where do I get Metronidazole, and how much do I give him?

Sorry to sound so dumb about this stuff. I always felt I fed him well, but maybe not as much variety as I should have.

Tracey

PS: The vomiting issue was not discovered until I spoke to the vet. I found undigested round seeds and some very tiny ones in some of watery substance this morning, and this was more than likely vomit. That has stopped, but like I said still not eating much of anything.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Well, the poops are looking a bit better, he's drinking quite a bit, even looks more fuller in the croup area, but he is not eating like he should. Can either of you suggest a good thing to tube feed? I fed him baby bird food when I was hand-raising him, so not sure if I should get something like that? Please let me know if there is something I can buy at a pet store locally, as I may not have time to order online.



Hi Tracey,



My own judgement was to with-hold all solid Food for a couple days, pending furter observations/developments.


It will not hurt him to fast a little while.




> Also, what's the best natural iodine? I have kelp in gel caps I take myself, should I use that, and if so how much is good for a pigeon?



For a Vegan, such as a Pigeon or Dove, Sea Weeds which people eat, such as found in Asian Markets.


Easy to make them into Powder in a Coffee Grinder...some can be tender and easy enough as is...many kinds.


'Purple Dulce' also...comes in powder already, in the bulk sections of Health Food Stores.


None of these cost much...and, a Bird does need much of them.


Few to none of the so called 'pill or tablet suppliments' will have the right Iodine kind, and are usually worse than nothing, as well as expensive.





> And, what kind of natural greens do you all suggest?




Cilantro...Baby Lettuces...Parceleys...Kales...Chards...cut up fine with Scissors.


Also, Natural Omega 3 type Oils...plain ( fresh, not rancid ) Olive Oil or Flax Seed is good...lightly 'glisten' his Seeds ( once back on Seeds) by adding a little Oil, stirr all well...this then also allows any Powders ( Sea Weed, Brewer's Yeast, etc ) to cling to the Seeds.


Natural Brewer's Yeast is also good to add in this way...and is a good source of several B Vitamins.




> And last question: where do I get Metronidazole, and how much do I give him?


Usually, via Mail Order from Pigeon supply Houses.


Places which sell Tropical Fish will carry it also, in a version called 'Fish Zole'.

You can get that kind if there is a Tropical Fish Store near you.

We can advise dosage then.



> Sorry to sound so dumb about this stuff. I always felt I fed him well, but maybe not as much variety as I should have.



Almost none of this is widely known or practiced.

The additives and pellets you provided, in an ideal world, would have ingredients offering these kinds of Nutrients, but, usually do not.


Direct Outdoor Sunshine also, now and then, is important for Birds.




> Tracey
> 
> PS: The vomiting issue was not discovered until I spoke to the vet. I found undigested round seeds and some very tiny ones in some of watery substance this morning, and this was more than likely vomit. That has stopped, but like I said still not eating much of anything.




I personally would not let him have any Seeds for a few days.


Possibly he has some Candida or Yeast issues effecting him...whether as a primary problem or secdondary and developing in the wake of whatever the primary issue is.

For which ( Candida/Yeasts ) 'Medistatin' would be the usual recourse.


ACV-Water will help somewhat, but is not as effective as Medistatin.


If this Vet had ever actually taken care of a Sick Bird, she'd have sung a very diferent tune.

Glad you tried...but, the Vet really blew it...the most important things were the fecal analysis, and, if any throwing up was noted, to do a Crop Swab, looking for Trichomona and Candida/Yeasts.


Not a good Vet.


If it was me, I would be reaching for the Metronidazole, and, the Medistatin and probably 'Baytril' or 'DIVIT', favoring 'DIVIT' actually...and I would now also with-hold Water except for supervised drinking...as I make sure his Crop is in fact passing Liquids well enough.

If it is not, he can over-fill himself like-a-Baloon...



I would let him fast a few days, pending how things go.

If he hs passing Liquids well enough, I would consider tube feeding Liquid nutriments, but not till some time has passed for the Meds to be working.


I am worried his upper GI is closing off or getting blocked...or is responding to impediments/conditions occuring further down.


We needed the fecal analysis to see if evidence of Worms, Coccidia, Trichomonas, Yeasts, Bacteria, etc.

The Vet has all the meds for these on hand, according to the diagnosis.

Sadly, she made no diagnosis and did no tests, other than waste your money on an un-necessary X-ray, and, to note blood in the stools, which we all already knew was there.


So, this puts you in a bad situation then....since we have no way to narrow things down well enough.

And these various Meds, at best, Mail Order, would be two days away if ordered in the morning, to get to you on Saturday if 'Next Day Air'.



Post the most recent poop images?



Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey, 



Two options to consider -


1) Get back with the same Vet, and, insist on a fecal analysis, for which, you would bring fecal samples in 'Plastic' such as some tiny Condiment Cup, or Plastic Film Wrap, folded so as to preserve the samples well...refrigerated till bringing.

Absorbent materials such as paper, should not be included. They should not be allowed to dry or be absorbed by the container or other materials.

Have the Vet do what they should have done the first time - a fecal analysis, looking for Coccidiosis, Worms, suspicious Bacteria, Trichomonas, Anaerobes, Candida/Yeasts...


...and, have the Vet do a Crop Swab, analysing it, looking for Trichomonas, Candida/Yeasts, or suspicious Bacteria in the Crop.


If Trichomonas or Anaerobes, 'Metronidazole' would be an appropriate Medicine.

If Candida/Yeats, "Medistatin" would be an appropriate Medicine.

If suspicious Bacteria, any broad spetrum Antibiotic would probably do.

If 'Worms', then probably 'Moxidectin' would be the best choice.

If Coccidiosis, then one of various Medicines known to ammend that condition.



Or...


Consider to call 'Siegals' Pigeons, or 'Vita King' and, to Order, by Next Day Air - 


Metronidazole ( 60 mG Tablets )


Medistatin ( A powder one mixes with Water to adminsiter or to have the Bird drink )


Enroflaxyn ( Tablets - )


DIVIT ( Tablets - Trimethroprim Sulfaquinoxaline )


I would prefer the Vet do what she should have done already.

We need to narrow down the category of agency effecting his Intestines, in order to know what Medicine(s) to recommend.

So should the Vet.

As he was seen to have thrown up, this immediately should alert any Vet with half a brain, to do a Crop Swab and find out what can be found out, about what is going on in the Crop...in order to decide that, and, relate it to the already on-going condition, in order to form a mental model of the presentation and what is to be done.


Ethically, she owes you a second round, and, to do it right this time.


This would be the best time saver also.


Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on the Vet/Culture situation*

Thanks again, Phil for all the great information. 

Just called my original vet, and spoke with a tech there, so here is the scoop on the vet/culture situation: 

There is a huge avian medical conference going on in Colorado this coming week. Most all the avian vets in this area are going to it, including my old vet, who is already there, and this new one I went to yesterday. 

After some sleep, I am now remembering that the new vet said she was going to do a culture, but that it would take upwards to two weeks to get the results back, and that she was going to be proactive and put him on standard antibiotics for birds because she would not be here when the results came back to prescribe anything anyway.

What the tech at my old vet told me this morning is that it takes at least 72 hours to process the cultures, which means any vet that did the two cultures would not be in town to read them and prescribe any medications for at least 2 weeks. The tech said that the new vet used to work for my old vet, and that she is actually very good, and that they never received a complaint about her. The tech also said that 90% of prescriptions my old vet writes are for what the new vet prescribed. She also spoke to a vet they have there who sees birds who said she would do the cultures, but she would also not be in town when they come back.

Everything is all crazy here schedule-wise because of this conference in Colorado, so I'm guessing they are doing the best they can as far as putting my bird on an antibiotic that is commonly used to see if it will get him through this initial crisis. The tech said that since my bird is already on the antibiotic and has received 2 doses, that if they did the cultures today, this could affect the outcome. She and the vet on-call at my old clinic recommended keeping my bird on what was prescribed and seeing how he does for the next couple of days, and if he does not get better I can take him to the emergency hospital that sometimes has a bird vet on staff. 

Taking my bird to the emergency animal clinic is something I sure don't want to do if at all possible. Just to take one of my animals to give her IV to stabilize her for an emergency spay the next day was over $700.00, and by the time I got out of there it was over $1000.00, and they didn't even do the surgery! Very expensive, so I'm praying that I don't have to go back to that money pit at all...

The one good thing: this morning my bird seems better. He's actually going to the bottom of his cage looking for food, which I have removed for now. He's not vomiting, but he is passing quite a bit of liquid. I am going to post three photos of the poops, 1 from last night and 2 from this morning so that you can take a look at them. 

*So here are some questions:*
You suggested fasting for a couple of days. The last time he really ate, before all this happened, was Wed around 5:00pm, so today around 5:00 would be 2 days as he wasn't really eating anything yesterday at all. Should I start feeding him only the pelleted organic food and the greens and seaweed that you suggested after 5:00 today, or would you wait until tomorrow? I don't want to not feed him if he is willing to eat, as I don't want him to get down energy-wise. 

Are the the following items you suggested in addition to the Baytril and Lactouse suspension I already have him on (I know the Divit is):

Consider to call 'Siegals' Pigeons, or 'Vita King' and, to Order, by Next Day Air -

Metronidazole ( 60 mG Tablets )

Medistatin ( A powder one mixes with Water to adminsiter or to have the Bird drink )

Enroflaxyn ( Tablets - )

DIVIT ( Tablets - Trimethroprim Sulfaquinoxaline )​
I'm not sure if I should go ahead and order any of these things or not, or if I should wait to see if what my bird is taking now improves him, and if not then have the vets do the cultures after he is off of the antibiotic? 

Totally confusing with this vet conference going on, and everyone flying away to go to it...

AGAIN, thanks so much for helping me through this situation. I really appreciate all the time and effort you have given me and my bird.

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, the vet tech is right about the Baytril you have started Mr. Pidge on interfering with the accuracy of a fecal exam, but only partly so, as the Baytril would only compromise the bacterial part of the test and not for yeast, cocci, worm eggs or protozoa. So although sometimes I do start my birds on a med before getting them into a vet, I may, depending what I think are the issues are, still have them run a fecal, and still do a gram stain as well, as not all bacteria are sensitive to Baytril, if I chose this to start, (many times I will initiate treatment with either TMS (Divet) or Baytril).

The meds Phil has suggested I think, at least IMHO, are necessary have meds to have around if your are keeping pigeons, even a single one, as it has been my experience that many times my birds seem to get sick on the weekends, holidays or when my vet is out of town, so I have all of these meds on hand myself to start early treatment with. As you know with birds, many times they disguise that they are ill for a period of time and by the time you pick up on that they are sick, many times a good period of time has passed and they need meds/help right away.

The Enroflaxyn Phil mentions is another name for the Baytril you are treating Mr. Pidge with, but should still be added if your are ordering, as you probably where only dispensed enough for immediate treatment and compounded antibiotics can not be kept for long periods of time, where tablets or concentrated liquids ones can be kept for a number of years, so it would be good to have some Baytril on hand for any future needs.

As I said, it is good Mr. Pidge is on the Baytril, but I will say that with the symptoms he was/is showing I would have added in Metronidazole myself if I was treating one of my guys who was presenting as yours was to be on the safe side, as Metronidazole not only treats for anaerobic bacteria, which Baytril has minimal effects on, but some protozoa as well, it just broadens the coverage for things that could be causing illness and Baytril and Metronidazole are complimentary to each other with no conflicts.

I know Mr. Pidge's droppings look a mess, but I am actually pretty happy with them, as they show good white urates and it also appears that his system is moving, flushing well. With food, I would hold the seeds for a bit yet, but go and get some pellets for him, such as in the link below. These are by Lafeber (has to be Cockatiel size), but Harrison and Zupreem also make a similar pellet, just make sure if it's Harrison's they are the Adult Fine size, With Zupreem I believe, like Lafeber, they designate their's as Cockatiel size. Give him half a teaspoon and let's see how these move through him to start and if they move OK, we'll give him more. The reason we want to try pellets is that when water hits them they will breakdown and separate (where as seeds won't, they actually swell a bit), and them breaking down makes it easier to pass through his system if there are any blockages/swelling that is slowing regular food/seeds from moving through and where he then vomits them back up as a result. It may be helpful to know that while providing a quality pigeon mix to my guys they also get a dish of pellets as well, as I feel the pellets have a broad range of calcium, essential amino acids and vitamins added that help make for a more balanced diet for them and they seem to eat an equal amount of them as they do of the seeds.

http://lafebercares.com/pinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=19&parent=9go

I would also order the meds to have on hand and, keep monitoring him, as I am sure you are.

Thanks for letting me/us know where our vets may have disappeared to (my vet is out of town as well )

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Question on Metronidazole to Karyn or Phil*

Thanks Karyn and Phil : )

I did a little digging online, and of course no one company had everything you all suggested, so I ended up getting the following from Vita King:

1 CAN0025 Metronidazole Tablets - 60 mg $19.00 
1 ANT0040 Divet Tablets $22.00 

I got the Metronidazole to be given with the Batril now, and the Divet Tablets for any future use that I may need. I had them overnighted, but of course this is Friday, so UPS over-nighted means first thing Monday morning. Best I could do. 

So for the Metronidazole, do I give the full recommended dose with the Baytril?

I took all the seeds out of his cage, while doing so he pooped on my head and all down my arm. LORDY! I then put in a bit of Harrison's Adult Lifetime Fine pellets, and he went right down and started picking on them. Has yet to poop again but I'm keeping an eye on him--there is no vomit, so that's good. He seems way better--back to talking and one wing is coming up higher than it was. Do you, or Phil, recommend giving him greens and seaweed yet, or should I wait until he stabilizes a bit more?

Again, thanks so much for the EXCELLENT help! You all have been great!

Tracey

PS: Here's Mr. Pidge who thanks you too:


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## caliane (Mar 22, 2010)

My king pigeon has had poly urea for months. He has been tested for every parasite and has none. He is otherwise healthy, gaining weight and vital - any ideas?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracy, 


The fecal analysis I had in mind, is done extempore with a Microscope, and, an experienced operative would have it done in fifteen minutes.

'Cultures' are something else, and, those do take days or quite a few days even.


The evidence I was hoping for, could have been determined very easily by a Microscopic Examination of fecal materials, and, of the Crop swab.


Today's poop images appear to be showing nice white Urates, which is good to see.

You could feed any easily dissolving 'pellets' you feel good about, and this would be the best compromise for now, since Tube Feeding is not something you are used to doing.


I am worried about conditions in his Crop, and, all the way down from there to the other end, where, Seeds proper could possibly become involved in an on-going blockage problem ( if there is one, and we do not know if there is one or not, so I would hate to find out the hard way! ).

'Pellets' of a kind which if put into tepid Water, would turn to mush and or dissolve easily, would be safest.




Often, various illnesses can soon be accompanied by a Candida/Yeast infection effecting the Gi or upper Gi such as the Crop. This will manifest in various possible ways, and, throwing up is one warning sign.

Vets never seem to have any idea of continuity or wider aetiology, or aetiology at all, merely making off the cuff calls on a very narrow interpretation of an isolated symptom. 

And after one such rip off of a bluffed 'exam', the care-giver/patient combo is usually never seen again anyway, whether the patient lives or dies, for the Vet to have any way of ever learning what they did not notice or anticipate or 'read' from the details of the presentation...or to ever know, care or find out, how things went from there.


Anyway, fecal analysis is not 'Cultures'...those are two seperate things.


Glad to see the Blood is no longer present in the stools..!


Fingers crossed...


If you can, get the list of Meds.


Keep them in the refrigerator.


So often, is IS some wretched 'Holiday' Week-End or worse, when one needs them!



Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

caliane said:


> My king pigeon has had poly urea for months. He has been tested for every parasite and has none. He is otherwise healthy, gaining weight and vital - any ideas?


Hi caliane,



You would be best to begin a dedicated Thread for your question.

Otherwise, things become far to confused and messy if trying to keep track of multiple Birds and multiple Postes in the same Thread..!


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Thank you for that explanation, Phil. I thought I was loosing my mind!*



pdpbison said:


> The fecal analysis I had in mind, is done extempore with a Microscope, and, an experienced operative would have it done in fifteen minutes.
> 
> 'Cultures' are something else, and, those do take days or quite a few days even.


Thank you for that explanation, Phil. I thought I was loosing my mind! 

My bird had gotten an infection about 12 years ago, and I had taken him to yet another bird vet in a nearby town. I kept thinking that I remembered him doing a sample right in the clinic. I even questioned the tech about this today, and she said that all the samples had to be sent out as cultures! DANG, I wish I would have known the difference of terminology, and I would have specifically asked. I'm still not sure why she didn't mention it...

Well, we will see how Mr. Pidge does this weekend. So far so good. Way more active and talkative, and interested in food. 

I did order two of the medications you suggested Metronidazole Tablets - 60 mg, and Divet Tablets. Couldn't get the others at the same place. I had them "over-nighted" which in UPS means Monday instead of Saturday. 

When I get the Metronidazole is there a fairly easy way to administer the tablets? I have not crammed anything down his throat before, so wasn't sure if I could crush a tablet and and mix it with water and use a syringe, or if there was another way that might be easier. I have given pills to cats, dogs and horses, but not my pigeon.

Again, thanks for walking me through this. I truly appreciate it.

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, would it be possible to get a little more background on Mr. Pidge? We know he's 17 years old, but is he your only bird, does he have access to area that have bare soil/ground, would wild birds have access to his space in terms of their droppings getting inside, does he ever have any real contact at all with any other birds, have you ever seen any mice around - or traces of them - if so would they have any access to his areas, can we get a weight on him?

With the Metronidazole, it's pretty easy to "pop" a pill, or a piece of a pill into him, here is a video clip on how to do it (thanks to Feefo, Cynthia):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

There are quite a few suggested doses and regimes for Metronidazole, but I wouldn't mind seeing you cut one of the 60mg tablets in half and give him a half every 12 hours to start and make any adjustments if we have to based on his weight. It can be given at the same time as the Baytril.

I don't know if it's a skill newer vets just are not learning or they have been "talked" into that it would be better to send fecals out, but another member recently mentioned she also was to have her birds droppings sent out at another vet.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Answering below your questions:*

Karyn,

I'm answering below your bolded questions:

*Tracey, would it be possible to get a little more background on Mr. Pidge? 
*
Yes : )

*We know he's 17 years old, but is he your only bird?
*
Yes. I did have a cockatiel, but he passed around 10 years ago.

*Does he have access to area that have bare soil/ground?
*
No--he is totally inside in a very large parrot cage. He has a built-in box and ramps up to his box.

*Would wild birds have access to his space in terms of their droppings getting inside?*

No. He is near a window that has a screen, around 3 foot away, but no birds or droppings can get in.

*Does he ever have any real contact at all with any other birds?*

No real contact. Can occasionally see them from a distance.

*Have you ever seen any mice around - or traces of them - if so would they have any access to his areas?*

We had a field mouse in the kitchen during the Winter. I never saw any droppings near his cage though. I caught that one with a humane trap and released it a block or so away.

*Can we get a weight on him?*

The weight from the vet's office yesterday is 346.0 g.

*With the Metronidazole, it's pretty easy to "pop" a pill, or a piece of a pill into him, here is a video clip on how to do it (thanks to Feefo, Cynthia):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow*

Thanks, I'll check it out.

*There are quite a few suggested doses and regimes for Metronidazole, but I wouldn't mind seeing you cut one of the 60mg tablets in half and give him a half every 12 hours to start and make any adjustments if we have to based on his weight. It can be given at the same time as the Baytril.*

This sounds good. Hoping I can get it down his throat. He's a little pistol with the liquid meds, but he is taking them so that's a good thing.

*I don't know if it's a skill newer vets just are not learning or they have been "talked" into that it would be better to send fecals out, but another member recently mentioned she also was to have her birds droppings sent out at another vet.*

Not sure about that either, but you would have thought the tech I spoke with would have mentioned it, as we had a big discussion about sending out the samples for a culture, I even specifically asked her about doing it directly in the clinic. I just kept thinking that is how it was the first time I took him to another vet, but it had been a long time ago.

*UPDATE ON MR. PIDGE:* I saw him eating the pelleted food a little while ago. He's moving around a lot more, and also cooing--even saw him do a few little pigeon spins on the floor of his cage. One of his wings is higher on his body, the other is still down a bit. Just looked at the poops and they are looking more normal--lots of white with more green--still runny but way better, and no blood that you can see with the eye at all. I'm keeping a good eye on him. 

*One question:* I'm thinking Phil may have answered this, but I'm not remembering: How long do I keep giving him the apple cidar vinegar water? He's had it for two days now. Wasn't sure if that can be used all the time, or only a couple of days a week. I know I've seen posts on Pigeon Talk saying 2 days a week for general maintenance, but I wasn't sure if that was two consecutive days or twice a week, and I wasn't sure about how many days to keep him on it for something like an illness. 

Thanks again, Karyn : ) I'm so happy I found this group and didn't have to go through this by myself.

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Thank you for that explanation, Phil. I thought I was loosing my mind!
> 
> My bird had gotten an infection about 12 years ago, and I had taken him to yet another bird vet in a nearby town. I kept thinking that I remembered him doing a sample right in the clinic. I even questioned the tech about this today, and she said that all the samples had to be sent out as cultures! DANG, I wish I would have known the difference of terminology, and I would have specifically asked. I'm still not sure why she didn't mention it...


It is an endless journey of learning, or, of opportunity, anyway.

Some 'clinics' are basically corporations, owned by distal others, managed by stock-holders who know nothing of the subjects, using contract employees who sign their life away, and will be fired for infractions ( ie, being intelligent, thorough, interested, etc )...everything is paint-by-number and no menu-options.

They might job everything out to 'labs' they own, as how they do business.

All mechanised formulaics..




> Well, we will see how Mr. Pidge does this weekend. So far so good. Way more active and talkative, and interested in food.



Glad to hear..!


The antibiotic appears to be doing well..!



> I did order two of the medications you suggested Metronidazole Tablets - 60 mg, and Divet Tablets. Couldn't get the others at the same place. I had them "over-nighted" which in UPS means Monday instead of Saturday.
> 
> When I get the Metronidazole is there a fairly easy way to administer the tablets?



What I do, is to break the 60 mG Metronidazole Tablet in half, on the sharp hard edge of a Table or other...then, I break each half in half.

Being in four pieces then, it is easy for the Pigeon to swallow when one opens their Beak, and, puts in one or two if the pieces at-a-time...till all four pieces are swallowed.

To open their Beak, I uaully have them stand on a Towel on my lap as I sit, and, left hand steadies them and prevents them from backing up, right hand and some fingers of left, steady the Head and Beak, and, from the tip of the Beak, I open the Beak up and slide part of my left Thumb into it, so they can not close it.

Wish I could make a little Video! I have no way to do so though.

I do this with any Tablets for that matter, unless they are already very very small.




> I have not crammed anything down his throat before, so wasn't sure if I could crush a tablet and and mix it with water and use a syringe, or if there was another way that might be easier. I have given pills to cats, dogs and horses, but not my pigeon.



Open his Beak...place or gently push with a pinky-finger tip, push the Tablet piece to the rear of his Throat...then gently grasp his Beak betwen finger tip pads for a few seconds, and he will swallow.


Some Pigeons can be quite clever in holding the Pill or Tablet or Tablet fraction in their mouth a few moments, moving it forward, and then siptting it out to the side.


One learns after a while, at least some of their tricks, and, adapts counter-measures.




> Again, thanks for walking me through this. I truly appreciate it.
> 
> Tracey




You are welcome!



I am very happy he is responding well to the meds he did get, and is getting.


This does not soften my rebuke of the Vet!



To-day's poop images?



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mild to medium strength ACV-Water for a Business Week is fine...

Otherwise, once a week or something is fine for routines of every day Life.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, Mr. Pidge is a handsome fellow. Thanks for answering my questions with so much detail, this helps, at least in my mind, eliminate a number of question marks I had about where his source of illness could have come from.

I want to tell you to go ahead and give him a teaspoon of pellets three times today, but I want to make sure the small amount you gave him yesterday went through well, so as Phil says, we are waiting on photos of his droppings. How does his crop feel this morning, he has not vomited in a few days now, right? Sounds like he is making steady positive progress, which is a good thing.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on Mr. Pidge, question about Grit for older bird*

He seems to be doing better--not eating as much as usual though--I don't think he likes the pellets as much as he likes the seeds. I've been keeping an eye on him, and he's still pooping--not as much as usual, but I guess he's eating when I'm not seeing him.. He's looking good, and is a lot more active, wings are still kind of down, but starting to come up, and he's fighting me as far as taking his meds. 

He's learned when he sees me coming with the medicine to go up in his box and get really far back in it where I can't reach him. I just wait him out, and he will come down in a few minutes and I can catch him then.

A question I've had for a while that may or may not have to do with this recent illness: As he's gotten older, I've had some really bad experiences giving him grit. He bleeds out his rear and the last time this happened in the Winter it was pretty bad. I had a few people tell me not to feed him grit anymore, and to stick to small seeds and the pelleted foods, which is what I have been doing, and have had no problem for about 4 months until this recent situation. I also put him on the breeders formula, which is a powder that some of the local breeders highly recommended, especially for older birds. I'm wondering if not having any grit could cause this kind of infection? That's about the only thing I can think of that's been changed in his diet during the last 6 months or so. 

Do you all think that he should still eat small seeds without grit? Or should I take him totally off seeds and only feed him the pellets, and the greens, and seaweed that Phil suggested? 

Thanks again for your input on this. I asked the vet, but she acted like she didn't know the answer...

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, before answering the grit question, it will be helpful to know what kind of grit you provide, how much do you think Mr. Pidge takes and is it available all the time for him?

I would say go ahead and give him a full teaspoon of the pellets three times today, if he will eat them all and let's see how things fair tomorrow. Glad he is acting a lot better, he most likely was not feeing well at all and it will take a bit of time for him, especially at his age, to make his way back.

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

with some pellet feeds you do not need grit, not sure what you have and what the directions are on the bag. you may want to get him a pick pot that he can pick at if he wants to it has The Calcium and Phosphate which are indispensable to normal digestive systems, and minerals and trace minerals, but if he eats his pellets, he should get those. just to add, this product seems to getting good reviews it may be something you may consider.

http://www.health-gard.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=db142392200c01ae84fab0e4fe9d93b5


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Grit*

Hey Karyn,

The last grit I purchased was Kaytee High Calcium Grit, with a picture of a canary on the box. It's pretty small stuff, but it still caused him to bleed. When I was feeding him grit, I would usually put in a bit of grit once a week--not more than a pinch or so, spread out on the floor of his cage. When the vet took the Xrays this week, you could still see something that looked like grit, but not a whole lot of it--maybe 8-10 pieces.

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Forgot to add that I had been giving him a larger grit before this, for medium birds, and he had the same reaction which is why I switched him to the canary size.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you can use a liquid calcium/mineral suppliment in the water if the grit is causing him problems, What does the bag of pellets say about calcium and minerals and trace minerals..... use untreated water, not treated city water. the heathguard may help him as well. the link is above in the other post.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I think you answered your own question in a way, that there was direct cause and effect by giving Mr. Pidge the canary grit and his bleeding. Here's what may have happened. The ventriculus in a bird (the gizzard) is made up of a few different layers. You have a muscle layer, secretory layer and a mucosal layer (lumen) that is protective. The lumen that the secretious glands produce is meant to be protective and is also meant to be replaced as it is worn away by the daily active of the ventriculus processing/grinding food. I am thinking that the fine grit you gave him acted like sandpaper and completely removed parts of the lumen (protective layer) causing him to bleed, as it was being ground around inside his ventriculus. Just off the top of my head, I would suppose, since the protective layer is made of keratin, like feathers, hair or nails, that in a geriatric bird, the organ that secretes this protective layer is probably not as efficient as in a younger bird, or probably as thick for that matter either, which may have exacerbated things in him, where a young bird, given this fine grit, may not have bleed. Anyway, you can run this theory by your vet and see what they think.

I think he should be fine on a young bird pigeon mix that does not have larger pieces in it, such as whole corn, peas (any type, whole or split). Two options for you if this is hard to find one, since you have a single bird, just pick out any larger pieces (you can use a piece of 1/4" hardware wire as a sieve to help with this. Two, just make you own blend, with seeds such as: Wheat
, White Millet, Canola, Red Lentils, Malt Barley, Buck Wheat, Canary Seed, Hemp, Red Milo and Safflower. You could also make available to him a dish of pellets to eat as he chooses and here is a link below for the proper kind of grit you should be providing, specifically made for made pigeons. Because of his current issues and the fact that larger grit can be seen on the X-rays, I would hold off on any grit for a while. 

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-1059/GRIT-WITH-REDSTONE-2.5kg/Detail.bok

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Hey Karyn,
> 
> The last grit I purchased was Kaytee High Calcium Grit, with a picture of a canary on the box. It's pretty small stuff, but it still caused him to bleed. When I was feeding him grit, I would usually put in a bit of grit once a week--not more than a pinch or so, spread out on the floor of his cage. When the vet took the Xrays this week, you could still see something that looked like grit, but not a whole lot of it--maybe 8-10 pieces.
> 
> Tracey



Hi Tracey,



I think he has been suffering some chronic, low-grade intestinal illness for a long time.

Or, something is wrong anyway.


Old Birds should be able to eat normal kinds of Pigeon Grit, or Canary Grit, with no problems in the Intestines.

If there is a deficiency in the Intestinal Mucosa, or lesions in the intestines, the question then is what is causing it?


Grit aids in their Gizzard being able to masticate their Foods well...and if the Grit contains Calcium and associated materials, that is a secondary matter.

Intestines in Birds and Mammals and Reptiles, are supposed to be able to handle passing abrasive or even sharp objects or foreign solid objects without difficulty.



Lets see how these present Antibiotics do.


Later, lets keep track of how he is doing, and, revisit this matter.


He should be able to have his Grit, even the Oyster Shell types having literally small Oyster Shell pieces, same as any other Pigeon.


If his Beak and Toe Nails are good, I would expect the Gizzard Lining to be good.


And besides, even if his Gizzard were not masticating anything, his Intestines should not care, as far as passing with impunity, whatever he happened to have eaten.


Something has been amiss with his intestines.



'GMO' Grains or products made from them, could do this...they damage the intestines ( among other things )...causing bleeding and thin walls and mucosa problems, lesions, etc.


Once he is done with the Antibiotics, or, even a.s.ap., you could consider a course of 'Medistatin'.


This will eliminate many of the fauna and flora in his intestines, including, possibly, bad kinds who excrete damaging toxins or chemicals.


He can then have a course of intentional pro-biotics, and we can see how things are then.



Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> with some pellet feeds you do not need grit, not sure what you have and what the directions are on the bag. you may want to get him a pick pot that he can pick at if he wants to it has The Calcium and Phosphate which are indispensable to normal digestive systems, and minerals and trace minerals, but if he eats his pellets, he should get those. just to add, this product seems to getting good reviews it may be something you may consider.
> 
> http://www.health-gard.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=db142392200c01ae84fab0e4fe9d93b5


Thanks for this info, Spirit Wings. Got a little overwhelmed with all the information, but I did check out the health guard, but I will see how he does within the next week or so before purchasing it. I don't want to add too much to his system quickely.

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Tracey, I think you answered your own question in a way, that there was direct cause and effect by giving Mr. Pidge the canary grit and his bleeding. Here's what may have happened. The ventriculus in a bird (the gizzard) is made up of a few different layers. You have a muscle layer, secretory layer and a mucosal layer (lumen) that is protective. The lumen that the secretious glands produce is meant to be protective and is also meant to be replaced as it is worn away by the daily active of the ventriculus processing/grinding food. I am thinking that the fine grit you gave him acted like sandpaper and completely removed parts of the lumen (protective layer) causing him to bleed, as it was being ground around inside his ventriculus. Just off the top of my head, I would suppose, since the protective layer is made of keratin, like feathers, hair or nails, that in a geriatric bird, the organ that secretes this protective layer is probably not as efficient as in a younger bird, or probably as thick for that matter either, which may have exacerbated things in him, where a young bird, given this fine grit, may not have bleed. Anyway, you can run this theory by your vet and see what they think.
> 
> I think he should be fine on a young bird pigeon mix that does not have larger pieces in it, such as whole corn, peas (any type, whole or split). Two options for you if this is hard to find one, since you have a single bird, just pick out any larger pieces (you can use a piece of 1/4" hardware wire as a sieve to help with this. Two, just make you own blend, with seeds such as: Wheat
> , White Millet, Canola, Red Lentils, Malt Barley, Buck Wheat, Canary Seed, Hemp, Red Milo and Safflower. You could also make available to him a dish of pellets to eat as he chooses and here is a link below for the proper kind of grit you should be providing, specifically made for made pigeons. Because of his current issues and the fact that larger grit can be seen on the X-rays, I would hold off on any grit for a while.
> ...


Thanks Karyn. Had to work over the weekend, so missed your post. 

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Monday update on Mr. Pidge*

Sorry I'm late replying to everyone who has helped me lately. I had to work all weekend to catch up with missing time during the week, and I'm still 12 hours behind : (. 

Mr. Pidge seems to be doing better, with poops looking more normal and less watery. Yesterday he still had quite a bit of water in them, so I kept a close eye on him, and this seems to be clearing up now. I will post some updated photos later today when I get to my office.

So I got in the meds from Vita King this morning, Divet for on-hand future use, and Metronidasolum for use now. For the Divit, I'm thinking I'm supposed to store those in the refrigerator? Is that the same for the Metronidasolum? 

Also, for his weight of 346 g and his age, 17, should I use a full tablet of Metronidasolum? I'm going to watch the video of how to do this, as he's not the type of bird that will easily stand in my lap on a towel. It's taking two people to give him the liquid--at least he's feeling better : )

After 5 days, I took him off the cider vinegar water on Saturday--should I start him on that again later this week? Thinking I read that it's good to give it to pigeons for general maintenance 1 to 2 days a week.

Again, thanks to all of your for helping me with Mr. Pidge.

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*The scoop on the updated Poop Pictures*

I got the Metronidazole this morning, and to be on the safe side for his weight and age, I gave him 3/4 of a pill. When I went to break it up, it pretty much went to pieces, so I made it into a powder, put it in a syringe with filtered water, and gave it to him that way. Very easy with a bit of water chaser. So far he seems fine. 

The vet clinic called to check up on him, which was nice. Talked to a tech, but she seemed kind of put-off when I mentioned the Metronidazole. I told her about this group, and how you all are excellent with pigeons, so she noted this in my chart. I don't think I'll be going back to this substitute vet again...

Anyway, here are the photos of today's poops. Let me know what you think, but to me they look more normal. The smallest one physical size-wise, on brown paper, is the most recent--he let loose almost on my camera!

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, thanks for the images of Mr. Pidge's droppings. Taking in to account the fact he is on meds and on pellets (still just on pellets alone right now, right?), they look OK to me. As I mentioned before, you would be fine in cutting one of the Metronidazole pills in half with a razor and giving a half to him at the same time you are giving him the Baytril. I don't generally have a problem with their droppings becoming loose and wet, while on meds (and pellets), as it means to me they are drinking enough to be continually flushing their system out.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,


Plain White paper Towels would be greatly better than Brown paper or other paper-paper kinds...and better to evaluate poops/urates.


Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Thanks Karyn and Phil*

Mr. Pidge seems to be OK. A little quiet tonight, but that may be because of the new medicine. His wings are higher on his sides, and he comes right over when I go by his cage though, so that is a good thing. 

I will put down some white paper towels and take some more photos tomorrow morning. 

Thanks again for all your help.

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,


Very glad to hear he is feeling better!


The White Paper Towels will be best for seeing the poops/urates better.

Given he had suffered episodes in previous occasions, of red Blood being seen in 'wet' poops, I believe he has long had some sort of chronic Intestinal infection or condition anyway, which he lived with, but, which should not be there were he healthy.


It is not easy to guess what it might be as far as the cause or agent, but, the Metronidazole is one good place to begin, which of course is occuring as the course of Antibiotics is drawing to a close.

Ammending his diet a little ( Sea Weed, fresh Greens ) , direct outdoor unfiltered Sun Shine now and then, as normal routines, may indeed aid him in both a complete recovery, and, for his immune system to manage better in the future.


Be very wary of any processed grain products or 'pellets' or related, which could contain GMO Corn or Soybeans.


If not sure, avoid.


Do you have 'Medistatin'?



Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update Mr. Pidge and vet*

Hey Phil,

I don't have the Medistatin. Couldn't get it at the same place I got the other two drugs. I'm totally blanking on what's that for again. The whole week has been a blur--I also had to have emergency surgery on one of our cats, so July was a wash as far as unexpected vet bills : (

One question: with Mr. Pidge on Baytril for 7 more days and Metronidazole for 3 more, per the bottle's instructions of 3 to 5 days, should I put him on some kind of pro-biotic after all these other meds? Just thinking about how antibiotics can kill all the gut flora in people, but not sure if that's how it goes with pigeons. If I need to put him on a pro-biotic, what's the best to use?

Update on vet: As I wrote to you all yesterday, I told the tech about this group and how knowledgeable you all are, and that per your logical suggestions, I had put Mr. Pidge on Metronidazole, and was only feeding him the pellets. The tech said she was putting a note in his chart, but not only did she do that, she also texted the vet in Colorado about me doing this. The vet then emailed the tech and told her to call me and tell me that she didn't see why I should have him on Metronidazole, and if I persisted in giving it to him, then I should only give him 1/4 of a pill twice a day. She also said not to change his food. I told the tech that I didn't agree with that, especially if the seeds could have something wrong with them.

This whole thing struck me as pretty weird, especially since this vet was a referral from my regular bird vet who is also in Colorado. What I do know is that my cat's emergency surgery was $420.00, which included Xrays, anesthesia, and follow-up medications, and my pigeon going to this new vet was almost $300, and that seems pretty excessive to me.

Mr. Pigeon is still doing good. I put down some white paper towels, but that rascal threw them all around the cage, and they ended up folded on top of each other, which produced some very squished poops : ( I put some more paper towels in his cage tonight, so I'll see if I can get some photos tomorrow.

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey, 



I would like to see what Karyn thinks of this...


But, my thought, is to see you finish up the course of Antibiotics to their full schedule.

If the Metronidazole is overlapping this, that is fine...it is a nice compliment...and, do five days then of it, half Tablet a day, or 1/4 Tablet every 12 Hours thereabouts.

Once the Metronidazole is done...I'd say let him coast a few days, and, then, consider the 'Medistatin' for a course of treatment.


The 'Medistatin' eliminates Yeats or Molds or Fungus in the GI.


Once that is done, it's be fine to supply some supplimental Pro-Biotics.



My thought is that he has been suffering something for a long time, where, it tended to be chronic, or waxing and waning, but, of a low level of infection or infestation chronically, occasionally welling to some noticible symptoms.

You relayed there had been previous occasions of red Blood in his poops.


With the overlapping and successive courses then, of the Antibiotic...the Metronidazole, and, the Medistatin, you will have covered the great majority of possible offending micro-Organisms.


One additional course of Treatment to consider, could be to use either 'DIVIT' or some kin, which would m-a-y-b-e eliminate Coccidia, which the other Medicines would not.


These things then represent an effort to aid his system in eliminating whatever the wax and wane issue has been.


Sea Weed, Fresh Greens now and then, some lite Vitamin/Mineral suppliments, and occasional forays out for some while into direct outdoor Sunshine, would complete the gesture, for his health and Immune System to be in good enough shape, for them to keep things in good order then.


So, that is my thought.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, your vet's recommendation of 1/4 pill (about 15mg) twice a day would be just fine, so you could "pop" 1/4 pill twice a day.

After his course of meds is finished, some pro-biotics may be in order. I recommend that you pick up some good quality human grade capsules from the health food store, in the refrigerated section, the kind you would use yourself, as we will just need less than a capsule for him. We will open the capsule and give 1/8 of it to him. You can do this by getting a piece of very fresh bread, 1/4"x1/2", and sprinkling a little on a few pieces and rolling them up a bit, into a ball, and "popping" them to the back of his throat, like you are "pilling" him. Do this three diffrent days, two days apart from each "pilling".



> I told the tech that I didn't agree with that, especially if the seeds could have something wrong with them.


Not quite sure what you mean by this, could you explain a bit more, what could be wrong with the seeds? Is Mr. Pidge still on just pellets right now?

The Medistatin would be one more good med to have around, as then you will have meds to cover most fairly common eventualities that could befall Mr. Pidge.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*For Phil and Karyn*

Hey Phil and Karyn,

I'm not sure where the best place is to buy Medistatin? I dug around on both 'Siegals' Pigeons and 'Vita King' website, but couldn't find it at either. 

I did find it here:

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/medistatin.html

So I'm just making sure that this is the correct product before I buy it.

For Karyn,

I don't think there is anything wrong with his seeds. I just couldn't think of the reason you all gave for me to take him off of them for a while when I was talking to the vet tech. I've still got him on the Harrisons Adult Lifetime Fine Pellets--he's been on those along with seeds, for about a year. Is there any particular brand of pro-biotics you use? 

New updated poop pictures:


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

pro-biotic: http://www.health-gard.com/index.php...fab0e4fe9d93b5


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I get mine from Jedd's, here is a link for it, it has 4 times the amount for about just twice the price of All-birds:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-651/MEDISTATIN-100-g-(Medpet)/Detail.bok

Here is a link to the last kind I purchased, but I have used other brands as well:

http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/probiotics_adults_en.htm

Thanks for the photos, droppings look decent, but just to be clear, is he on both seeds and pellets right now, or just pellets? We removed the seeds for a while, as sometimes when birds are suffering GI ills, their ventriculus may not be working at full efficiency and there may also be GI blockages and swellings seeds may have trouble getting past.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on Mr. Pidge, now that off his meds...*

Hey Phil and Karyn,

Mr. Pidge's final dose of Baytril was last night, and I took him off the Metronidasolum after 5 days. I have slowly mixed in some pigeon seed mix with the pellets, because he didn't seem to be eating as much as usual. His eating has picked back up with the seed mix, and he seems happy and perky, talking all the time and always interested in what everyone is doing. 

The only thing that I am still concerned about is that he is still holding his wings down instead of how he regularly holds them folded on his sides. Granted, we are having the hottest summer in 16 years in NC, and I don't have AC in the house, so I'm not sure if that is why he is doing this or not. 

I know someone said at one point that this could be a sign of Candida, so since you all advised to give him a bit of a break between meds, I am getting ready to order Medistatin from Jedds for him today. Is there anything else you all can think of that I need to order from there?

ALSO, how do you all give the Medistatin to just one bird? Can I put it in water and shoot it down his throat with a syringe, like I was doing the other meds to make sure he gets it, and if so, can someone please give me a proper dosage? I'm afraid I may not do it right if I follow the instructions on Jedds website. It's saying to mix it with 1kg of feed, which is over 2 lbs, and I sure don't give him that much food at one time. 

Thanks again for all your help. 

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Forgot to ask*

Forgot to ask, how long should I wait to start him on Medistatin AND should I be doing the pro-biotics now before I start him on Medistatin?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, Nystatin is fairly bitter and if you mix it in with his food he may reject it. Best to mix up a concentrated suspension and give him a bit of this.

To do this mix 1 teaspoon (5 grams) of the Medistatin into 5mL of water, we could use syrup to thicken it up, but water should be fine for this. Give him .25cc (this is 1/4 of 1cc, to the .25 line on a 1cc syringe), this will be 100,000iu and give this to him twice a day. You can give him some probiotics at the same time, as Nystatin is an anti-fungal and will not interfere with the friendly bacteria in the probiotics, but I would give them a few hours apart. Shake it like the dickens before drawing a dose and keep it refrigerated between use. He can start the Nystatin right away.

Could you post a photo of his current droppings and a shot of Mr. Pidge as well, as I would like to observe his body posture.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



Glad to hear he is feeling pretty much his old happy self again!


Set out a cool Bath for him!


They will sort of hold their Wings a little out and down if it is Hot ambiant temps.



Post some images of today's poops?


Get some nice Sea Weed at an oriental Market...make it into a powder in a clean electric counter top Coffee Grinder.


Lightly mist his Seeds with 'Trader Joes' Aerosol Olive Oil...add a good amount of the Sea Weed powder, and stirr so all is mixed well...and the powder will adhere to the Seeds.

Do the same now and then with powdered Brewer's Yeast ( sold in Bulk at most Health Food Stores ).

This will be very good for him, and for his immune system to be strong.er odd odors to his breath...if he seems bright and active, Candida is not likely to be bothering him.

Some forms will leave hints in the poops, so, post some images of thse for us to see.


Best wishes!


Post a nice picture of him too!



Phil
Lv



If his Crop is passing well, and no funny 'Acetone' odors or oth


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Medistatin' taste sweet...and, Pigeons are happy to drink a solution of it.

It settles out, so a solution must be stirred well and served right then.

One merely with-holds their drinking water for a while so they will be thirsty, and offeres a small Condiment Cup or the likes, of the Medistatin Solution.


He might not need it...so, let's see what we think after some more review and poop images.


I never have had any Nystatin to know what it is like...but the Medistatin is very easy to get them to drink it since it tastes sweetish and is not unpleasant to them.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Pidgeon Pictures*

These were taken with him moving all around, so couldn't get a full body shot. Also, didn't have in white paper towels on hand, so these are today's poops. The one that looks dark red around it is just wet paper bag. As far as I can tell, there is no blood at all in any of it. 

Tracey

PS
Called Jedds before I saw you all had answered my questions, and he is supposed to call me back to talk about wings being down.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracy, the droppings don't look too bad, please try again, when you get a chance, to post a good, clear shot of him, on a flat surface.

Thanks,

Karyn


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