# red bar roller ,deep rich bar color



## donhallnz

Hi, I went to see a friends new birmingham rollers and spotted a small cobby red bar hen,that has a very deep orange/red bar,I have never seen one so bright,can any one suggest any other factors that deepen bar color or is it just a pretty bird,sorry no photo,he gave it to me so I hope to breed some more like it, it makes my red bars look pretty dull


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## donhallnz

I have compared it to some other birds today and the closest the bar color it comes to is recessive red,could it be a brown bar?Unfortunately its tail and wing flights are white,but it does appear to have a false pearl eye?


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## loonecho

A picture would be most useful in this situation. Could be split for recessive red which might add more intensity to the bars. Or, it could be some type of bronze and especially modena bronze. Or something like indigo might also enhance the bar color. Those are possibilities I can think of but there may be other factors as well.

Jim


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## donhallnz

Yeah I need a digital camera LOL,its not modena bronze and Id love it to be Indigo but Ive never seen it in workin rollers here (aus)so doubt it, but there is Rec Red in the family,so I guess its probably that, will be breeding her soon so will find out soon enough,can you tell me what effect dilute has on kite bronze?
Got a bird here ,real mystery
Cheers Don


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## NZ Pigeon

Kite bronze will go sulphur if dilute is added, I wonder if your rollers have roller bronze and rec red, I have some really dark rollers that are het rec red also homozygous reds in the cocks and they are very rich, Even when spread is added the bars stay solid with I think is due to the roller bronze.


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## donhallnz

Hi Evan,I dont know the difference between Roller Bronze and Kite Bronze,can you point in the direction of some photos or explain it?,If I put this hen next to a ordinary Monty redbar and you compare this Monty cross hen,it is sharper in every color,so naturally I want to breed some more like her.Thanks for the explanation of dilute bronze, I have bred a young hen that looks like a dilute brown with heavy grizzle,I would be excited to think I had brown to play with as Ive never seen one in flying rollers,although Im sure its here and would be easily missed,Im thinking now Im dealing with a heavy bronze bird with dilute and other as yet unknown factors.I certainly have some very heavy bronzed birds which seem to display best in combination with grizzle,the entire wing is heavily bronzed mainly on the best of them
Don


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## NZ Pigeon

I could not tell you the difference sorry, I just know it by sight but am still expermimenting with and learning about roller bronze myself, I guess one big difference is Kite often causes bronzing against the quill whereas IME I have only seen roller bronze effect the Barred or check areas in a similar way that dom opal would.

I have seen some dilute blues look a lot like browns but never seen any that could be mistook for khaki, I would be interested to see the pics. I wonder if some other lightening factors could be in play on a blue dilute bird? Brown would be cool especially if you have spread and or almond available to you.

Kite Bronze on a blue bird in combination with grizzle usually on a T pattern or dark check will make a toirteshell pigeon which is a cool colour. If the bird has one dose for recessive red then this will darken the bronze making it very rich, What I am getting at is the bronze you see in your birds will most likely be the same as the bronze on your grizzle birds but the grizzle in combination with the bronze allows for a good expression of the bronze gene.

Have you got recessive red ( self reds ) in your loft?

I am also interested myself in the rich rollers and what produces them, They are so much richer than my ash red racers so something is causing it. Some people have seen pictures of my birds and similar birds and said they were Indigo, I have put my rich ash red rollers to blue spreads and not produced andalusians so I am convinced Indigo is not amongst my rollers atleast.


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## johnbt

Not sure if these couple of pictures will help the discussion?

John


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## ljb107

johnbt said:


> Not sure if these couple of pictures will help the discussion?
> 
> John


1st looks like a tort - blue cheq grizzle with bronze and the 2nd/3rd looks blue cheq with bronze and poss sooty


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## Print Tippler

I was under the expression that roller bronze was the common bronze that is seen a lot of the time weakly expressed in the juvinile feathers but then moult out. It should help intensify the color after a moult. That though I am not sure of. I think it may also "tick" every feather with bronze similar to kite bronze. Kites will show much more bronze and it's believed paired with undergrizzle will give you the close to self bronze look of show tipplers. Which some call today brander bronze though the name was used before for a duller bronze that did not have recessive red. I think I have two birds that have roller bronze.

John, i would say kite was the first one and the second I would go with toy stencil 1.


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## NZ Pigeon

The first one is kite, The second are roller bronze which expresses similar to modena bronze or Ts1 if you like.


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## donhallnz

Well the hunt is on to find out what factors are in my birds,I have certainly bred some cracker RR,and Blacks, Yellows etc, hawked unfortunately, but now that Ive realised after getting birds eaten everyday that I fly that Im never goin to be able to seriously put up a team Ive decided to go for birds that prove the roll and then are retired to the loft for color breeding projects,I have a good family of plain 1st gen MN which seem to contain RR, undergrizzle,and some types of bronze, probably just Kite and the darkening factors,sooty, etc (Im wondering now if it is Kite as family is highly inbred and surely doulble kite with Het RR and undergrizzle would have produced some heavily Bronzed wings by now? maybe there is no bronze and its only Het RR im seeing when I extend the wing?) I am combining them with an old english mix now and am getting deeper rollers now with less frequency but thats ok I dont like the comp standard anyway.
Im thinking if I can mix Tpat,**** bronze,Het grizzle,Het RR on a **** Dilute I would get a nice bird that has sulpher wings and back,the grizzle may have to be under grizzle only,I think that would be a nice use of my available factors as I seem to have fluked nice looking rich colored bronze winged and back birds with grizzle on the head ,and underbelly,not sure if I have to fit Sooty/Dirty in the mix as well? 
What do you think?


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## donhallnz

thanks for putting up the photos I definitely dont have roller bronze if it expresses like opal on the bar,but have bred plenty of torts like that. when you extend a wing and see red running down the flights of a blue bird, is that some sort of het bronze or het rr?


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## Print Tippler

Do you have torts with bronzing in the tail? Blue t pattern **** kite het RR **** undergrizzle with sooty is believed to be the genotype of the modern brander bronze phenotype. Though there are plenty who feel its a completely seperate gene.


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## donhallnz

just checked, no bronzing in the tail on any of them,going to try to get some more info on brander bronze tho, thanks for that


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## Print Tippler

What are you trying to find out about branded bronze? I've searched the Internet, google translated, and have sent out emails and do not have a clear conception of exactly what's going on.

Thanks for letting me know about the tail. I have one that has it and was wondering if it was common or another gene making it express.


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## donhallnz

Im wondering whether I can recreate it with what I have or if its a definite factor on its own, seems the bronze group interact a bit differently depending on what they mix with,I think I have seen Brander diluted and its very pretty,if I can duplicate that on a deep colored bronze wing I will be very happy,anyway off to work now,can see Im goin to have to buy a digital camera to fully participate as the old saying A picture tells a 1000 words couldnt be truer than when trying to explain a pigeons color


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## Print Tippler

I've been wondering the same thing. Like you already said and probably read some believe it to just be undergrizzle. To the best of my knowledge there is no defenite answer being stated on the internet. Try undergrizzle and tell us how it goes. There is also probably a dirty factor in the mix if your going for the show tippler look. Technically the show Tippler is not true brander bronze. They said the old brander bronze was darker and then they added the rec red but still go by the same name. Pigeon genetics wouldn't be hardly as far as it is today without the sharing of information, pictures being the critical part.


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## johnbt

Here are some pictures of the same birds, a bit older now and having moulted. I was told that the bronze may moult out but it's still there.

I've been calling the first bird a tortoise shell. It does look a little different now its older.

The other two I don't know what to call them. Their mother is a recessive red pied. These young are of interest to me as I will be pairing a young cock back to the mother to breed recessive reds. 

Is their anything interesting I could breed with these birds showing the bronzing? I have cocks and hens and some siblings that don't some the bronzing but would be split for rec. red.

(The tortoise shell is not from the same pair as the birds showing bronze)

Thanks,

John


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## NZ Pigeon

johnbt said:


> Here are some pictures of the same birds, a bit older now and having moulted. I was told that the bronze may moult out but it's still there.
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> I've been calling the first bird a tortoise shell. It does look a little different now its older.
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> The other two I don't know what to call them. Their mother is a recessive red pied. These young are of interest to me as I will be pairing a young cock back to the mother to breed recessive reds.
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> Is their anything interesting I could breed with these birds showing the bronzing? I have cocks and hens and some siblings that don't some the bronzing but would be split for rec. red.
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> (The tortoise shell is not from the same pair as the birds showing bronze)
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> Thanks,
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> The first bird would be what I would consider toirteshell but in a weakish expression. This tippler of mine is what I consider average as I have seen some birds with a better bronze look than mine and they are what I consider great toirteshell.
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> As far as the bronze goes, I agree with Print Tippler that it could be Ts1 or something very similar that has been named roller bronze but is very similar in inheritance and expression as modena bronze or Ts1. I think it may be stronger in expression due to these birds being het rec red. I don't think many interesting looking birds would come from the bronze itself but maybe with selection and inbreeding you may get some deeper bronze bars or even white bars???


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## NZ Pigeon

donhallnz said:


> Well the hunt is on to find out what factors are in my birds,I have certainly bred some cracker RR,and Blacks, Yellows etc, hawked unfortunately, but now that Ive realised after getting birds eaten everyday that I fly that Im never goin to be able to seriously put up a team Ive decided to go for birds that prove the roll and then are retired to the loft for color breeding projects,I have a good family of plain 1st gen MN which seem to contain RR, undergrizzle,and some types of bronze, probably just Kite and the darkening factors,sooty, etc (Im wondering now if it is Kite as family is highly inbred and surely doulble kite with Het RR and undergrizzle would have produced some heavily Bronzed wings by now? maybe there is no bronze and its only Het RR im seeing when I extend the wing?) I am combining them with an old english mix now and am getting deeper rollers now with less frequency but thats ok I dont like the comp standard anyway.
> Im thinking if I can mix Tpat,**** bronze,Het grizzle,Het RR on a **** Dilute I would get a nice bird that has sulpher wings and back,the grizzle may have to be under grizzle only,I think that would be a nice use of my available factors as I seem to have fluked nice looking rich colored bronze winged and back birds with grizzle on the head ,and underbelly,not sure if I have to fit Sooty/Dirty in the mix as well?
> What do you think?


I would love to see pics if you manage to get the kite to express strongly and add dilute to the mix, Could be some nice birds.


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## johnbt

The first bird would be what I would consider toirteshell but in a weakish expression. This tippler of mine is what I consider average as I have seen some birds with a better bronze look than mine and they are what I consider great toirteshell.










As far as the bronze goes, I agree with Print Tippler that it could be Ts1 or something very similar that has been named roller bronze but is very similar in inheritance and expression as modena bronze or Ts1. I think it may be stronger in expression due to these birds being het rec red. I don't think many interesting looking birds would come from the bronze itself but maybe with selection and inbreeding you may get some deeper bronze bars or even white bars???[/QUOTE]

Evan, here is a picture of the tort's parents. This is the same hen that was discussed the other night.


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## Print Tippler

This is all very interesting. I feel I need to follow through with my kite/tort breeding program till the end, as early I was just going to cut it short. I will be starting a thread on birds with bronze in the tail tomorrow when I can obtain better pictures. I have a dilute tort but it is weak.i have to different lines and the second is weaker and looks like one will be moulting out.

Here's an old picture of my bronze foundation. I'll get pictures of the rest tomorrow.


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## johnbt

NZ Pigeon said:


> I would love to see pics if you manage to get the kite to express strongly and add dilute to the mix, Could be some nice birds.


Here is a picture of my dilute kite Tumbler hen. On another forum it was called a golden dunn? A breeder of Tumblers I know calls them dilute kite or sulfur. If this is of help to your discussions I can take some more pictures.

I also have kite Tumblers. The only picture I have is this young hen. Now she is older she is black. The bronzing is only visible with the wings extended. If you want a picture I can take some?

John


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## Print Tippler

Here is my group of torts. The far left and far right is off the hen in the middle. The two in the back come off another pair. I think those two will moult out.










Here is that dilute. Not the best but got some bronzing going on


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## donhallnz

Hi John,your Tort hen looks just like mine ,Im going to get a camera and post a few pics of my birds too,I like the other bronze factor, you should be able to do something with that,can someone please tell me what Ts1 means?With those second bronze birds how about breeding back to the tort,combining those bronze factors in **** form and take it from there, the object being to create as bronze a bird as possible


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## donhallnz

here ya go john ,our tort hens are twins,


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## johnbt

They sure are!

John


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## LA_BOY

Nice pigeons and color.


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## loftkeeper

look under the ash tail grease quills will cause the red to look much brtghter


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## earlofwood

Quote? "Is their anything interesting I could breed with these birds showing the bronzing? I have cocks and hens and some siblings that don't some the bronzing but would be split for rec. red." End Quote

Another consideration for the strong bronze would be to get hold of an almond and pair it to one of your birds that has a strong bronze expression. That and the recessive red in the mix will usually give you a rich golden-nut color as a base for any almond young produced.


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## loftkeeper

does the bird have grease quills


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