# Signs of Life



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I found a sick/injured wild pigeon last Friday evening. He was just hunkered down out in the middle of nowhere, eyelids puffed (swollen) closed, dehydrated, unresponsive and with a strange flat spot in his feathers above and behind the right eye. I couldn't tell for certain whether he was sick or injured, just that he didn't have much time left. I have on occasion seen eyelids like that on dead birds and they usually appeared as if there were no spasms or convulsions in dying--they just seemed to be horribly clinically depressed and died on the spot with no fight or fanfare. As such, I usually suspect some kind of encephalitic process where swelling in the brain or meninges causes them to just fade away.

I gave this guy both Baytril and Metronidazole as a shoot-first-ask-questions-later method and it looked dangerous to administer rehydrating solution because he was so far out of it. After awhile, I did see that he'd be able to take fluids with a long tube all the way down to the crop if I kept his head propped so I gave him some. Then I waited for hours to see if any poop came out and some eventually did. It had that badly dehydrated look about it complete with an ugly-colored white paste and a dollop of bile that was very thick, almost gelatinized. He needed water in the worst way but I don't keep LRS (Lactated Ringers Solution, the gold standard of emergency rehydrating solutions to be given right into a vein) or equipment to deliver fluids parenterally (by needle). 

After over 24 hours, it was becoming apparent that none of the water in the crop was going anywhere and the poops were doing nothing but getting drier and less frequent. I was losing him to dehydration with a cropful of water. So, I had to do something interesting, which is the big reason that I'm posting this thread.

Normally in a pigeon, the kidneys output real liquid urine that ultimately flows into the large intestine when possible for water reclamation. It's a water and mineral conservation thing. I reasoned that in a real emergency, it would be possible to backflush some rehydration solution into the vent for absorption. I actually used warmed Pedialyte with Medistatin powder in it and put in about 15 mL. You have to keep pressure on with your finger to keep the liquid from leaking back out for quite awhile afterwards but eventually it stays in. I gave another 10 mL a few hours later. I used the same kind of tube as for feeding and lubricated it, by the way. Another thing--while trying to hold the bird in such a way as to see what I was doing, some of the water that I'd already given leaked out the beak so I had to suck that water back out with the another tube feeding apparatus before going on.

The gamble paid off--the bird rehydrated and started coming to after another day. What we seem to have now several days later is paresis (weakness) of the legs, a very slow GI and a negative unilateral pupillary reflex (one eye ain't responding to light). There's still some swelling around the eyes and under the feathers down below. On the plus side, he's starting to shake his head as a comfort thing when you pet him and he looks around when other birds are in his field of view. All fluids are going in the front end and he's taking about 25 Calories of Kaytee (mixed quite thin) per day now.

Originally, his respiration rate was in the 40s but it's now about 20, very deep and slow. I think his metabolism went through the floor for quite awhile but it's on the way back up now. Every time I was asleep or away from him for a few hours, I kept expecting to find him dead but he keeps surprising me. 

I'd have to say that this one has come closest to the abyss that I've ever brought back. For the one eye to not be working meant some kind of brain damage (the eye's fine otherwise--no sign of trauma) either by disease or concussion/swelling. I held his wings this morning, pulled his legs out somewhat straight and helped him to take some steps. I think he might eventually be able to walk again.

I've also had to build his towel nest in such a way that his tail is much lower than his breast so that the Kaytee and liquids will gravity-feed through as he's not really pulling them through on his own. You have to check his crop very carefully each time to make sure that it's going down before putting in any more. The poops were very far and few between for the first few days. And, I even included Baytril in the medicine up the vent for the first few days since it didn't seem to be going down the front end at all. Wish him luck, he's going to need it. 

Hopefully, this might help some of y'all sometime.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Very interesting, Pidgey! Pretty creative thinking on your behalf that looks like it saved this poor pigeon. Well done, and thanks for the post.

I hope the pigeon will continue to recover.

Terry


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## Tati (Mar 21, 2008)

*Signs of life*

Wow! Am I impressed! Let us know when you name him/her. Good luck.
Tati


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Pidgey,

I have been wondering how things were going.

What a unique hydration/re-absorption technique  you came up with, and definitely paid off. I think you brought this one back from near dead, he probably wouldn't have survived if it wasn't for you. 

I know how anxious and stressful it can be, checking on a bird constantly and thinking you were going to find it dead. Thank you for spending so much time with this little one, and bringing him back to life.

Continuing my prayers and wishes for his/her continuing and complete recovery. 

Thanks for sharing, I'm glad things are looking better.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

LOL, I'm sure that was quite a "rude" shock to that pigeon  having things brought in the wrong way! Verrrrrrry interesting that it works, though! 

As another tip, if you have syringes, a rehabber taught me to inject ringers or sterile water - using a 20 gauge needle like we use for vaccines, etc., - subcutaneously in the leg/groin area, same spot you'd do a vaccination on them if you were doing one there. It's easy to make a loose skin fold down there. She put about 1cc per side so you can get 2ccs in them that way. That's not a lot of fluids and if you had to do it many times you'd probably bruise the heck out of them but when you have to get fluids in fast it does work a charm. Just in case you're iffy about going the enema route


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Pidgey*



Pidgey said:


> I found a sick/injured wild pigeon last Friday evening. He was just hunkered down out in the middle of nowhere, eyelids puffed (swollen) closed, dehydrated, unresponsive and with a strange flat spot in his feathers above and behind the right eye. I couldn't tell for certain whether he was sick or injured, just that he didn't have much time left. I have on occasion seen eyelids like that on dead birds and they usually appeared as if there were no spasms or convulsions in dying--they just seemed to be horribly clinically depressed and died on the spot with no fight or fanfare. As such, I usually suspect some kind of encephalitic process where swelling in the brain or meninges causes them to just fade away.
> 
> I gave this guy both Baytril and Metronidazole as a shoot-first-ask-questions-later method and it looked dangerous to administer rehydrating solution because he was so far out of it. After awhile, I did see that he'd be able to take fluids with a long tube all the way down to the crop if I kept his head propped so I gave him some. Then I waited for hours to see if any poop came out and some eventually did. It had that badly dehydrated look about it complete with an ugly-colored white paste and a dollop of bile that was very thick, almost gelatinized. He needed water in the worst way but I don't keep LRS (Lactated Ringers Solution, the gold standard of emergency rehydrating solutions to be given right into a vein) or equipment to deliver fluids parenterally (by needle).
> 
> ...


Good save on that one. Hope he comes around.

Here is something that you may try in the future for a bird that is unable to stand upright or when nourishment won't leave the crop. It was passed on to me by an old Cropper breeder and used in cases of sourcrop.

Besides giving Pepto Bismol to treat the sourcrop, the bird would be rolled up in newspaper quite snugly and in the shape of a cone which conformed tightly to the pigeon's body. This cone was then hung up with a nail to a wall in an upright position for a period of 24 hours.

After this period, you'd unroll it and see how the treatment went. Did the food and water go down or not? If not, another day of the same. It sounds alittle radical but I did this on a couple occasions with Norwich Croppers that had a persistent bout of sourcrop and the treatment worked.

Just how this would work in the case of a very weak bird, I can't say but it will allow gravity to work and seems to make everything run through their digestive tract.

Bill


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Pidgey,

Very good work!!!! That is an old way of delivering fluids to humans that isn't used anymore due to advances in parenteral delivery. I'll be quite interested to see how this guy does. Whatever head injury he has wasn't enough to kill him outright and he was alive long enough to get severely dehydrated after the injury. So I would guess if you can bring him along he will recover, but might have residual neuro defecits. Keep us informed about how things go.

Margaret


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, that is a pretty interesting procedure and I'm happy that it appears to be working. I'll be pulling for this little guy.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WELL DONE, PIDGEY!! But, then again, I'm not _that_ surprised. If anyone can think outside the box, it's you.

The method that Snipes mentioned sounds like the same technique given to cats and other animals when they need to be hydrated.

Bill's comment was interesting too! Sometimes, a catastrophe brings out some treatments/techniques that would not ordinarily be used or mentioned. 

More helpful information to add to the growing knowledge of treating sick and injured pijies.

Wishing your little one ALL THE BEST for recovery and a long life!

Sending LOVE, GENTLE HUGS AND SCRITCHES TO HELP...

Shi


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

You never cease to amaze me Pidgey! I had to jump to the end of your initial post though to make sure the little made it though - and then went back to read how you did it. Truely amazing. I'll sure be saying some extra prayers for him/her - and for you so that you keep coming up with these creative solutions! Do keep us posted (I know you would have without asking though  ).


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, one more question .......inquiring minds, you know!

What effect does that much fluid have on the genital/urinary area since they're kinda tied in together?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you can check out this illustration:



Standard link if you can't see the picture:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1424330288073664377HVnonE

Normally, liquid urine flows into the urodeum of the cloaca (big chamber above) where the bird can allow it to flow around the coprodeal fold into the proctodeum. From there it typically flows retrograde (against the normal flow) into the large intestine for water and mineral reclamation.

Just imagine a hen sitting on the nest all night long, storing up what Treesa lovingly refers to as "the Mother Load". That actually accumulates in the proctodeum, just inside the vent but actually outside of the rectum. Those can obviously have some significant volumes and I didn't want to put in any more than that at a time. I think I slopped out about 5 mL out of the original 15 mL just trying to get it in right. I did a little better on the second batch but still lost some. I also did it more over the next couple of days but that's a blur at this point.

Normally when you run any kind of probe in there, you're virtually always going to end up below the coprodeal fold in the proctodeum. It's really difficult to get above the coprodeal fold into the urodeum. Anyhow, there wasn't a lot of choice under the circumstances. I believed that I needed a somewhat isotonic solution in the bird and plenty of it at that, so I made the choice and did it. I figured that it'd be a lot easier to deal with any complications later with a living bird.

He's given me two good poops today so far. Early this morning, I held him over the trash and petted the crap out of him. Literally. And then did it again at lunchtime. You see his tail start to waggle up and then he lets go. I guess he's beginning to understand that if he saves up until I pick him up out of his towel that he can keep his towel cleaner. I carried him out around the yard and he was looking around a fair amount. I held his wings again with his feet down and worked with him to get him to take some steps, which he did so we haven't lost complete motor control.

The acid test was...

The Safflower Seed Test.

He didn't score any, but he made some effort to get one. I think it wore him out trying but it's a definite sign of life.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey. The illustration really helped me understand what you're talking about. I'm very happy he is pooping like he is. If things continue on like they are we're going to have another miracle baby. Great job (as usual ).


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Pidgey,

Thank you for the illustration. My knowledge of bird anatomy is spotty.
I'm glad to hear he passed the safflower seed test. I think your guy is going to have a heck of a good chance at recovery.

Margaret


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, it's funny... usually you get them kinda' like this and start sighing with relief when they actually start getting close to normal. Here I am awash in thankfulness that he's only just bad sick.

And, bless his heart, he looks it. You set him down on the ground on his feet in a squat and he swoons a bit from side to side, looking almost nauseated. He can't move anything fast and sure, or strongly. I'll try to take a picture tonight--his eyes still look ill, even though the swelling's down a lot.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, this is off topic from this little guy but something in the upper right corner caught my eye........39 - my foot!

I guess we'll see this next time?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Whatchoo' talkin' 'bout?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

You are a mess.


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## Avion (May 28, 2007)

Remind me NEVER to come to your house and say that I am thirsty or dehydrated!!!!!!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOL.







Hope everything works out for him. It is a credit to your love for birds that he has come this far.

George


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Well, this is off topic from this little guy but something in the upper right corner caught my eye........39 - my foot!
> 
> I guess we'll see this next time?


I'm afraid that "39" is my fault due to wishing Pidgey a Happy Birthday! I said he was 39 and last year I said he was 55...obviously, guess which one he prefers...I LIE at times...I admit it... but Pidgey is soooo worth it! 

Pidgey, your new care sounds like he's coming along just swimmingly (almost literally!). Along with everyone else I am SO hoping he will make a wonderful recovery and he should - with your help!

BTW, I hope Agent Starling isn't getting jealous! HE's still getting attention too, right? Bet you are not taking him to work any more! I know Unie is fine along with the loft pijies...

LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES TO ALL !

Shi

P.S. I, too, am familiar with the "Mother Load!" Squeaks can let go with the best of 'em - from egg sitting to occasional morning dump!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Avion said:


> Remind me NEVER to come to your house and say that I am thirsty or dehydrated!!!!!!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOL.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Avion said:


> Remind me NEVER to come to your house and say that I am thirsty or dehydrated!!!!!!!!!!!


Why? Because I use a generic Pedialyte? Unflavored Pedialyte is going to taste about the same regardless of who makes it, you know.

Not that you're going to be able to taste it, though... 

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, here's a picture of the poor thing:



I set him down on the rug to take the picture. He can't keep himself quite upright yet.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pidgey said:


> Okay, here's a picture of the poor thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't see the "embedded" pic and the link won't open either ..

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, sometimes you have to copy-and-paste the link into another browser window and do it manually. I get to see pictures off of this site inconsistently.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wow...good going Pidgey..!


He's a little cutie, and all in all, looking pretty good there in the image!


When getting them in this sort of Ball Park, I have not elected the resort you had, but that is a very good idea you came up with and I will remember it.

But yes, seems to me it would not be easy to get a fine Lavage Needle or other kind 'tube' into the correct discrete aperature.

Would you elaborate a little more please on that aspect?


I have seen very good recoveries ( if slow ones sometimes ) from severe dehydrations or privation, where it definitely took a while for their system to repair itself or to get itself un-shut-off.


These can seem 'drunk' or PPV like or as yours is, be unable to stand or even lay evenly...so the "U" shaped lightly rolled sall Towell is a good resort to try and let the nestle without falling over.


Usually, starting with tepid electrolytes-Water into the Crop since I did not think of your idea, and I did not dare to try the parenteal injection method...but, I recall none which did not work out well, even when slow at first, for the Liquids to get through when adinstered to their Crop, or, usually, when I was able to rally the with the inspiration to drink, which I would allow in short sessions, and many of them.

Anyway, what I wanted to mention, is that I believe both Fruit Juice and ACV Water are good for these Birds, soon as initial re-hydration proceedures are appearing to generate some urates or clearing out old thin poops which had stalled.


The Juice I believe to be a good choice is Goji Berry juice, Elder Berry juice, or Tart or Sour Cherry Juice, Pine Apple juice also would probably be a good one also though more acidic...these being the unsweetened plain ones of course.

So, in my appreciations, these can be used with the ACV in secondary phases of rehydration, as on day two, as well as using these two for their formula mixing, adding only as much plain Water then, as is needed to arrive at the consistancy one wishes.


The ACV aspect will aid in preventing Candida or other problems which can opportune in the conditions following their privations and trauma, as well as being an on-going Electrolyte-like constituant in it's own right...and, the Fruit juice adds additional and important Nutrients and aids in removing Toxins from their system.


I think Cilantro juice, were there some practical way to obtain it, would be very very good for these occasions.


How their little Brains and Kidneys - let alone the rest of them - can survive some of these privation ordeals, is beyond me to fathom..!



Anyway, good going Pidgey!


Just felt like rambling a little in your thread...


Phil
l v


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

OOOOOOOh, that bird is a sight.....and absolutely beautiful in my opnion.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hi, Phil,

I'm finally beginning to think on this guy that he was suffering from a really bad Paratyphoid or something like that instead of the an injury. I think the flat feathers on the head were just stuck down with something liquidy that dried. As such, getting the medication into him might have been as important, and that with time to work before he expired.

As to getting the stuff into him, I used those thin-walled, electrical heat shrink tubes that I normally use for crop feeding. It had the "bullet-nosed end" that I make of them with the heat from a match (has to be done extremely quickly, else it goes too far):



You have to lube the end with something, put it up to the vent and start twisting with light pressure. I did it with the syringe and liquid hanging on the other end of the tube but that's a pretty clumsy way of doing it. I was alone and had the bird in one hand, tube feeder in the other. It might have been just as well to use the nozzle on the end of the syringe, don't know--didn't try it. I certainly would in a pinch. Whenever you mess with a vent, they usually pulse and that's a good time to position the tube and start applying pressure. I tried it with oil once in what I thought to be an egg-bound hen. 

Once the tube is in, the bird will attempt to eject it and that's a lot more of a considerable force than you might think. Oh, in the grand scheme of things it's nothing, but you're so not wanting to be "in there" that you're probably going to have too-light of a touch and so the tube will get spit out. That's why you have to place a finger just under the vent and hold some pressure at the proper time for a few minutes afterwards. I kinda' found that one out the hard way.

Pidgey


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Pidgey*

After seeing the photo, I was thinking Paratyphoid and then I read your post where you suspect it as well. I just noticed that the vent area was stained green and was going to ask if that was from any of your procedures or if it had been that way.

I don't know if you have Albon or Sulmet but those would be my choices. I know many are going to say to use Baytril and maybe if he is that advanced, it may be the only thing strong enough. You know more about it than me, that's for sure.

Keep up the good work.

Bill


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Can't see the "embedded" pic and the link won't open either ..
> 
> Terry


I get this:
*FORBIDDEN

You don't have permission to access /758/1/66/32/2270166320073664377lJtxcC_fs.jpg on this server.*


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, the encouraging thing is that he is so bright-eyed and aware of his surroundings. He may not have much stamina right now but I have great hopes for this little guy. He sure is pretty.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

jbangelfish said:


> I just noticed that the vent area was stained green and was going to ask if that was from any of your procedures or if it had been that way.


The green staining is from wallowing in poop that was originally mostly bile. Bile is essentially a soap that's used to break down fats (think: oils and grease). Birds usually continue to pump it out even where there's nothing in the GI tract for it to work on. It's generally less of a sign of disease as it is privation. It tends to show up more in anorectic birds (they're not eating) and so we often think of it as a symptom of a disease like Paratyphoid.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I agree, Maggie! He is and will be a beautiful pigeon! 

I'm sure this little one will do well in Pidgey's hands since he will do all he can to help him. 

Between Phil and Pidgey, these guys have a much higher survival rate!!

With continued *healing thoughts, hugs and scritches*

Shi

Oh yes, and what's with the "99" now, Pidgey? Who do you think you are, Methuselah?? 

Mmmm, what to do for your _next_ Birthday greetings!?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Pidgey, the encouraging thing is that he is so bright-eyed and aware of his surroundings. He may not have much stamina right now but I have great hopes for this little guy. He sure is pretty.


I actually helped him stand this morning and his legs were pushing up enough to hold himself up for a few seconds.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> Oh yes, and what's with the "99" now, Pidgey? Who do you think you are, Methuselah??


Lately, I been a'feelin' like it.

Pidgey the Pooped


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Lately, I been a'feelin' like it.
> 
> Pidgey the Pooped


Granted and understood. You are off the hook...for now...

Never let it be said that I'm not compassionate amd magnanimous...

HKLL

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Hi, Phil,
> 
> I'm finally beginning to think on this guy that he was suffering from a really bad Paratyphoid or something like that instead of the an injury. I think the flat feathers on the head were just stuck down with something liquidy that dried. As such, getting the medication into him might have been as important, and that with time to work before he expired.



Hi Pidgey, 


Oye, maybe ( getting meds in initially )...


I dunno...when they are truely suffering privation, and one does not discover serious indicators of disease/infection ( though they are implied - or soe precipitating condition is anyway - when it is an adult Pigeon, otherwise, why was he not finding forrage and water?)...


Getting 'just' the rehydration phases underway, and on day two, or evening of day two, once old poops come through and urates are seen, getting Nutrients into them at a rate they can process, seems very reasonable to me.

For all I know anyway, even ordinary Medicines could kill them or burdon them badly if given too soon, if their Digestive system, Kidneys, Liver are not up to par, by inadvertantly causing a sort of Over-Dose if they metabolize the meds but can not excrete or complete the processing...so...


I don't personally remember any occasions where I regretted not starting meds 'sooner' with serious privation Pigeons.


When I have seen signs of predation or thought they were sick and starving because of that, knowing they had beatthe infections long enough TO have starved, I have started meds maybe 12 - 16 hours after starting rehydrations, which is 'early' to do I think, but not a bad compromise maybe.


Usually, or otherwise, once they are springing back, day three say, I would start the Meds which I felt might be needed.

But the ACV-Water I do feel is a good idea no matter what else, or along with whatever else for these Birds.


But, always, the question of how come a seemingly uninjured adult Pigeon, is found who is starved/dehydrated?


I know I find healthy robust adults sometimes who are just not flying.

If they were not able to find food and water, they would starve and dehydrate.

What is wrong with them at that phase, where everything seems fine, yet they are not fine and not flying...?


Worms, pulled muscles, some phase if bacterial illness which is not yet having them look any different from normal...peculiar PPMV or other Virus presentations...accidental poisoning...who knows?

Once starved enough, any number of previously background organisms in their system can get uppity...




> As to getting the stuff into him, I used those thin-walled, electrical heat shrink tubes that I normally use for crop feeding. It had the "bullet-nosed end" that I make of them with the heat from a match (has to be done extremely quickly, else it goes to far):
> 
> 
> You have to lube the end with something, put it up to the vent and start twisting with light pressure. I did it with the syringe and liquid hanging on the other end of the tube but that's a pretty clumsy way of doing it. I was alone and had the bird in one hand, tube feeder in the other. It might have been just as well to use the nozzle on the end of the syringe, don't know--didn't try it. I certainly would in a pinch. Whenever you mess with a vent, they usually pulse and that's a good time to position the tube and start applying pressure. I tried it with oil once in what I thought to be an egg-bound hen.



Okay...seems straightforward enough..!




> Once the tube is in, the bird will attempt to eject it and that's a lot more of a considerable force than you might think. Oh, in the grand scheme of things it's nothing, but you're so not wanting to be "in there" that you're probably going to have too-light of a touch and so the tube will get spit out. That's why you have to place a finger just under the vent and hold some pressure at the proper time for a few minutes afterwards. I kinda' found that one out the hard way.
> 
> Pidgey




Makes sense...


I want to find some various Gauge Lavage Needles, and just looked on e-bay, found none...did a few 'googles', found only suppliers who will sell to credentialled practioners.


I will keep hunting...


They'd be handy for this, as well as other things.


Most Grocery stores here sell various kinds of 'Pedalite' it turns out...



So that is good...



Thanks Pidgey..!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, he's standing up occasionally now to reposition himself. He's wobbly and I don't think he'd be able to do it if he weren't in a towel nest to help steady him, but he's doing it quite a bit.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, he's standing up occasionally now to reposition himself. He's wobbly and I don't think he'd be able to do it if he weren't in a towel nest to help steady him, but he's doing it quite a bit.
> 
> Pidgey



Glad to hear...


How are the Poops?


And...


Is he showing any interest in Seeds and pecking yet?



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The poops are simply diarrhea at this point. I'm just so happy that he's pooping. He's standing fairly continuously now and his balance is a little better, but we're still talking one wobbly, sick pigeon. He can't stand upright at all--he's just wobbling somewhat horizontal or even slightly downward. The right eye still shows no pupillary reflex and I'm not expecting him to get anything back there at this point.

I'm tubing him yet for a host of reasons so I don't think he's got much of an appetite beyond that. I don't get the sense that it's time yet to let him try it on his own. He's certainly not touched the seeds that are in with him. He makes just a tiny bit of progress each day, so little that it's almost not noticeable. This one's going to be a very long haul with some permanent deficits. It just remains to be seen how serious those deficits will be.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey...


Oye...


Is he ready to handle 'Seed Pops' yet you think? If of small size Seeds, say?


Could he have been layed low originally by some sort of enteritis? 

Coccidiosis?

A Virus?



How are the Urates?



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are some reduced urates but there's a lot of catarrhal discharge as well (like snot). My guess at this point is that there could be a concurrent oviduct infection and those usually aren't taken out with Baytril very well, if at all. From what I've seen, those respond to Trimethoprim/Sulfa very well so I'm going to switch the bird over to that one. If that works, we should start seeing more positive results in about a week.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oye...


Would Metronidazole be of any use as an adjunct do you think?


I hate occasions of mucous-poops, and I am not at all clear on what to elect for regimens.


I seldom see them, and I do not recall what I did for them when I had confronted them.


ACV-Water I know is well worth doing in many many things...

An ambigious if seeming infection of either the Intestines or Oviduct - and, how would one go about deciding which..?


Can you get yout Ontoscope in there to have-a-peek?



Love, 

Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I think several things were/are involved. The mucus seems separate from both the diarrhea and the urates. The poops are fairly large and they make me tend to think this is a hen. I don't think I've seen this kind of catarrhal discharge out of a male yet. From experience, this kind of thing seems to respond to a Trimethoprim/Sulfa blend better than anything else I've tried. There's a lot of overlap between that drug and a Baytril/Metronidazole combo but it's not a complete parallel.

There's probably not a lot to see "in there" that you couldn't find out by way of some fecal tests. And looking "in there" is a lot more trouble than it's worth in most cases, especially if it's only you to hold the bird and do the looking.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 



Ahhhhh...


Any idea, if Medicated solutions can be Lavaged into the Oviduct directly, in addition to Oral/Systemic approaches, or, would the probably normal mucuous layer ( worsened in viscosity or volume when infection is present, ) prevent the Medicines from penetrating or reaching an infection by that delivery method?


Where is a good place to get Trimethoprim/Sulfa?



Phil
l v


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Wow. I just re-read that first post and realized...
Pidgey you are a Genius. Also, remind me not to get heat stroke with you around. lol.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Pretty good for a 99 year old*



philodice said:


> Wow. I just re-read that first post and realized...
> Pidgey you are a Genius. Also, remind me not to get heat stroke with you around. lol.


Pretty sharp old boy. 

Bill


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I found out how difficult it was trying to get into the oviduct to oil it back with Winter. I'm sure that systemic antibiotics will absorb from the colon although I think their presence there in the required quantities play hell with the good gut bacteria. I rather doubt that all antibiotic preparations can be absorbed that way. That's not a reason to avoid doing it, but it's going to cause other problems down the road that will have to be dealt with. I'm hoping that the Kaytee will help repopulate the gut since it has a lot of the right stuff.

For the money, this one is one of the best deals for getting Trimethoprim/Sulfa:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=1

The powder is about 1/3 pure medicine. When you get Divet tablets, you're paying an awful lot more money per milligram, for instance. That package (scroll down) has about 33,000 milligrams of pure medicine in it and the powder doesn't draw moisture like the Aureomycin stuff does.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Uhh... it was more of a panic attack, actually. I still hate losing a patient in the worst way and "necessity is the Mother of Invention".

Anyhow, she's fighting the tube-feeding more now so more systems are coming online. Still can't stand up straight and still isn't real interested in self-feeding. Weight's not coming back on very quickly yet, either.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

What a good sign, the bird is getting stronger. Sounds like everything is coming along well, considering the shape this bird was in.

I guess he can only work on one system at a time, given his appetite and so some other systems will be slower to improve-but that is steady progress. It just can't be done all at once, that would drain him.

Would be a bonus for him to get a syringe of my most excellent kefir, I would send you some if it wasn't so darn hot out.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Pidgey I have to ask you this question? Why did you not become a vet? You know so much and understand such things that most can barely understand. You would make an excellent vet. 

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It just wasn't in the cards. 

But, really, the only thing that was working on this bird was the pooper. The only reason turds come out somewhat solid is because they've had the water sucked out of 'em. Since, that was the only thing working, that was the only option that I had with this one under the weekend circumstances.

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thats amazing! I'm pulling for your little patient and hope that he is back to normal soon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I took her out into the loft to look around. I let her down and the floor and she actually took a few steps here and there. She walked about three feet, or so. She mostly stands and looks around with the one good eye. She also did a funny thing--kinda' acted like she was taking a bath, but there wasn't any water close. She also tried a little preening but she lost her balance a bit. Oh, well, she tried and I haven't seen her do that yet.

Pidgey


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

my babies sometimes take an air bath, or a rug bath, or whatever is around for them, when they want a real bath, and there is no water around. It's cute 

Maybe she wants a real bath too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She can fly down from my hand now for a few times about 8 feet out.

Just.

Pidgey


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Remarkable*



Pidgey said:


> She can fly down from my hand now for a few times about 8 feet out.
> 
> Just.
> 
> Pidgey


Way to go Pidgey. From where this bird was, this is pretty amazing.

From all that you described, it almost sounds like the bird had a stroke and is recovering, thanks to you. Head trauma or some type of brain injury such as stroke seems like what this bird has gone through. Without you, it seems pretty sure that the bird would have died. This bird sounds like it is starting over, much like a person who has been through one of these situations.

Your diligence paid off and also your creative ways of dealing with things. Your rather amazing knowledge of a bird's anatomy made all of this possible.
Great job.


Bill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

(ditto, only bigger)Remarkable!!!  

That is a major achievement for this bird, thank you for sharing.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She's getting better faster, now. I just let her ride on my hand outside while doing some chores and she took off and flew level for about 20 feet fairly slowly (against the wind). But, bless her heart, she ran right into the wood fence as though she couldn't see it. I expect she's got to get used to the one-eyed thing. I'll give her some more time out in the loft today and see how she does. She needs some time amongst other pigeons, now.

I remember well a young bird that I got shortly after I joined this site almost three years ago. I named him "Scarecrow" because he was so thin. It was while Lin had gone back up to Pennsylvania to visit her parents over the Memorial Day holiday. What I remember the most was bragging to Treesa, something like "don't worry--I won't let him die". It was a case of "famous last words" because nothing I did seemed able to stop that bird from going downhill. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, would go any further down than the crop. Not water, food, medicines...

And he lasted a full week, to my shame. I've written before about the ghosts that haunt us and all of the rehabbers have at least a few. Scarecrow visited with me a lot this time, reminding me of what wouldn't work and in some ethereal way that I cannot quite bring to proper words, we worked together on this one. I'm sure that will sound quite silly to normal people, but I know in my heart that the rehabbers will understand.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 



Great news..!


Something I have found recovering ones to enjoy for excercise, especially if they do not quite trust ( or if I do not quite trust ) their Flying - 


I just have them on one hand, so they can grip a finger pretty well with their Feet, a few inches over the Bed, and, with my other hand, I hold their Tail down at the root. 


They can flap pretty hard then, and really get into it, and not worry about launching off and crashing...


Once they pause, and I let go, they wait till I grip their Tail again, to start flapping some more.


Sometimes I just set them on the bed and use both hands to grasp their tail.


They really do like this, and will literally turn and look at me to let me know they are ready for the next round.


The excercise I am sure is very good for them, and this excerice is also a good one for those who have weak Legs or issues where their Legs can not support them quite enough for standing - once flapping like this, they can stand and even walk as one keeps holding on and lets them move forward slowly, using their Legs.


Yours does not have any Leg issues thankfully, but I just wanted to mention it since it is continuous with the same excercise routine...and one can do it at night of course, since it is indoors on the bed, or just low over the floor.


So, what happenned to the Eye with this one?


Was it an infection, or a physical injury which harmed it?


Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so glad this pijjie is doing so much better. This really has been a remarkable return from death's door. Well done, Pidgey!

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> So, what happenned to the Eye with this one?
> 
> 
> Was it an infection, or a physical injury which harmed it?


Don't know anything for certain. My guess would tend more towards disease than trauma at this point because of several unrelated things. If it were trauma, I don't think we'd have seen the gastrointestinal problems that we have. She was very thin and her early respiration rate was 40. She seems to favor one leg, and the good one is on the same side as the bad eye. I should add that just looking at the eye, there's no sign of any damage--it looks like a normal eye except for the fact that the iris is fully dilated (big pupil).

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> She's getting better faster, now. I just let her ride on my hand outside while doing some chores and she took off and flew level for about 20 feet fairly slowly (against the wind). But, bless her heart, she ran right into the wood fence as though she couldn't see it. I expect she's got to get used to the one-eyed thing. I'll give her some more time out in the loft today and see how she does. She needs some time amongst other pigeons, now.
> 
> I remember well a young bird that I got shortly after I joined this site almost three years ago. I named him "Scarecrow" because he was so thin. It was while Lin had gone back up to Pennsylvania to visit her parents over the Memorial Day holiday. What I remember the most was bragging to Treesa, something like "don't worry--I won't let him die". It was a case of "famous last words" because nothing I did seemed able to stop that bird from going downhill. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, would go any further down than the crop. Not water, food, medicines...
> 
> ...


I absolutely understand and I like to think I am normal.







There are those birds that stay within our hearts forever no matter how long you have them. You didn't think I was silly when I told about that baby who flew through the wall.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Who wants to be normal anyway?*



Pidgey said:


> She's getting better faster, now. I just let her ride on my hand outside while doing some chores and she took off and flew level for about 20 feet fairly slowly (against the wind). But, bless her heart, she ran right into the wood fence as though she couldn't see it. I expect she's got to get used to the one-eyed thing. I'll give her some more time out in the loft today and see how she does. She needs some time amongst other pigeons, now.
> 
> I remember well a young bird that I got shortly after I joined this site almost three years ago. I named him "Scarecrow" because he was so thin. It was while Lin had gone back up to Pennsylvania to visit her parents over the Memorial Day holiday. What I remember the most was bragging to Treesa, something like "don't worry--I won't let him die". It was a case of "famous last words" because nothing I did seemed able to stop that bird from going downhill. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, would go any further down than the crop. Not water, food, medicines...
> 
> ...


I'm not an official rehabber but have rehabbed many birds. You have a way with words and with the birds. Wonderful words and deeds. Don't you make me cry for I'm a cantankerous old fart. Very nice Pidgey, you're quite a man.

Bill


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I absolutely understand and I like to think I am normal.


Yes, Maggie, you're normal. 

It's those ~7 billion other folks on the planet that aren't rowing with both oars in the water.



jbangelfish said:


> I'm not an official rehabber but have rehabbed many birds.


I'm not sure that we have any actual licensed rehabbers on this forum, now that you mention it. Therefore, Bill, consider yourself an "official" Pigeon-Talk rehabber!

We need a Tee shirt line...

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Rehabbers and Ghosts ..*

Actually we do have a few licensed rehabbers on Pigeon-Talk. They don't post often, but they are members. Obviously, they are our kind of rehabbers .. meaning ones that will take in and help pigeons 

Pidgey .. your "ghost" comment(s) got me to thinking .. yep .. we've all had them and the first of my ghosts that came to mind was Poquito .. that was a very long time ago and a very serious lack of me realizing what was going on ..

So sad ..

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*And he lasted a full week, to my shame. I've written before about the ghosts that haunt us and all of the rehabbers have at least a few. Scarecrow visited with me a lot this time, reminding me of what wouldn't work and in some ethereal way that I cannot quite bring to proper words, we worked together on this one. I'm sure that will sound quite silly to normal people, but I know in my heart that the rehabbers will understand.

Pidgey*


While not a rehabber, I understand completely and am not surprised. Fortunately, I've never been normal... 

Shi
aka Scorpio Power


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh yeahhh...



"Ghosts of Pigeons passed"


I have them also, a small Flock worth, certainly...


Success-Story 'Ghosts' of happy Eyes and good recoverys and them flying off in release...'Miracle' recoverys...amazing tales...

Others I flubbed, who died because I did not know what to do, or because I did the wrong thing, or I did the right thing in the wrong way, or at the wrong time, or goofed it up however so.


Yeahhh...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's been a few days now so it's time to update. I've named him Lazarus, for one thing, and I'm starting to lean towards it being a "him" only just recently. For one thing, he's pooping much smaller poops on a more regular basis since I put him in a cage with a wire bottom so that the poops can go through to papers below. 

Another thing that happened is that I'd keep hearing male rookooing sounds occasionally in the early mornings but I didn't know who was doing it between Lazarus, Ol' One Beak & Scissors. And every time I'd stumble out of bed and try to tiptoe in there to see, I'd always see a bunch of pigeons looking at me with that "who, me?" look on their faces with nobody willing to either speak up or even so much as nod a head towards the guilty party. 

Until today. Ol' One Beak was laying down, propped on a wing and Scissors was standing, looking at Lazarus in his cage nearby. So, I put Scissors in with Lazarus and a minor scuffle started. Lazarus was beginning to fight. It was a pitiful attempt, to be sure, but it WAS an attempt! Lazarus hasn't been showing a great deal of will power, self-assertion or desire to eat on his own, but he's obviously decided that cage is HIS and worth fighting for now.

So, that's where we are at this point. I didn't feed him this morning to see if he'll make an attempt to do it on his own this morning. It's high time he started feeding himself.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 



Good to hear...

Does sound like a boy...


Pics?



Good going..!


Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Many thanks for the update, Pidgey! I always wonder how the ill or injured ones are doing if I don't hear for a few days.

Sounds like Lazarus is emerging from the "woods."

YOU GO LAZ! PROTECT THAT CAGE! Mr. Squeaks understands completely!

Sending Love, Hugs and Scritches to ALL, but _especially_ Lazarus, at this time. 

Shi


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Congratulations Lazarus!!!! 


I'm SO glad you are doing SO well that you have a name now, and that you are a BOY!!! ... I knew you would be named Lazarus.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Thanks, Pidgey, for the updates on Lazarus. I'm so glad to read how well he is doing. From what you describe, I would guess he suffered some kind of blunt trauma, perhaps with a brain clot of some kind. He may have some residual perceptual problems besides the one sided blindness. But all in all, he really is a Lazarus thanks to you. Very very good work.

Margaret

PS Yes we do need T shirts!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Good news Pidgey. Give Lazarus a big kiss for me.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lazarus is self-feeding now. I'm not sure that he's drinking but poops (well-formed ones, too) are coming out the back end. He's also learning to fly better. Out in the loft, there are too many bullying males thinking that he's a "she" (still could be, for that matter) so he doesn't do well enough out there to leave him, yet. But, he moves around a lot more now and flies up to some elevated places.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pidgey said:


> Lazarus is self-feeding now. I'm not sure that he's drinking but poops (well-formed ones, too) are coming out the back end. He's also learning to fly better. Out in the loft, there are too many bullying males thinking that he's a "she" (still could be, for that matter) so he doesn't do well enough out there to leave him, yet. But, he moves around a lot more now and flies up to some elevated places.
> 
> Pidgey


Good going Lazarus and Pidgey! 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Lazarus is self-feeding now. I'm not sure that he's drinking but poops (well-formed ones, too) are coming out the back end. He's also learning to fly better. Out in the loft, there are too many bullying males thinking that he's a "she" (still could be, for that matter) so he doesn't do well enough out there to leave him, yet. But, he moves around a lot more now and flies up to some elevated places.
> 
> Pidgey




Sounds good..!


Preening too?


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, yeah, Lazarus is doing everything now just fine. Lazarus has been out in the loft for over a week now and seems to be holding weight and staying hydrated. I've found him up in the rafters, down on the floor eating and about everywhere else there is to go. They're leaving him alone now so he's just one of the gang these days. Sometimes I almost think that the busted-up birds all know what shape they're in and respect each other for it. It's only the completely healthy birds that seem to sometimes act like jerks.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh good..!

Glad to hear he is doing well..!


Phil
l v


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Truely an amazing recovery Pidgey!! And in such a relatively short amount of time - just awesome. Give Lazarus a high-five wing slap for me  Sure is a little fighter.



Pidgey said:


> It's only the completely healthy birds that seem to sometimes act like jerks.


Are you saying that trait is limited only to birds?  I have some people I'd like you meet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Dezirrae said:


> Are you saying that trait is limited only to birds?  I have some people I'd like you meet


Well... I didn't want to say that it was only the completely healthy males that seem to sometimes act like jerks!

Pidgey


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