# How To Breed For Disease Resistance



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

This is a question with many moral and ethical questions. There are many who would agree that today's racing pigeon has been made dependent on various antibotics and "special" material. A typical program that is commercially available would have you administer various drugs seven days a week throughout the racing season. 

Prior to the breeding season, it is considered a "must" by many to administer a whole series of vaccinations and "treatments", broad spectrum antibotics and the like to "clean" the bird of all types of bad things. This has been countered somewhat by the use now of probotics, and stuff to counter all the "needed" stuff. 

Here is the question: Is it possible, over time, to produce a strain of birds, where health and vitality are inherited. Where the use of antibotics and vaccinations are NEVER used ? If a bird is exposed to pox, PMV, or whatever, only those that recover, or fail to get sick are used to breed. Has anyone out there been working in this direction ? How can such methods be established and employed, which are morally and ethically correct and above all else, is humane. More to follow, your thought s please.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

NOW we're getting into some serious "pigeon politics"....LOL. Good, bad or indifferent these are questions that many of us have to ponder and think about. I think it depends on the reason for keeping pigeons, how many you have, whether kept indoors or out, beloved pet or just a flock member and how seriously ill the bird is. If you want to debate whether or not letting nature take it's course is best, or pump pigeons full of drugs to "make them healthier"...this is a subject that has no right or wrong answer. I myself prefer the natural approach now after many years of having pigeons again. My birds are indoors and aren't going to be producing a flock of birds that *MIGHT* get out into the feral pigeon population and interbreed. I would have to say if I one of my dear pets become seriously ill, I would probably use an antibiotic if it could save their life. I think most of us would prefer to NOT use drugs if at all possible, I'm pretty sure that is that consensus amoung us - maybe not. However, I find myself struggling on the ethics of whether or not drugs are indeed helping in the long run. I strive to keep my birds healthy now by natural means when/if at all possible. I follow common sense practices of keeping pigeons healthy. It's probably unlikely that my indoor birds will ever become exposed now to anything that is life threatening either. This is a very sticky and personal topic in my mind because I wouldn't ever want to lose a dear bird if I could somehow prevent it. But if I was a large scale runt breeder, perhaps medicating my birds more would be of greater importance. Food for thought....


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Brad,

Thanks for the post. I had to cut my previous post short because, I had a Dr.'s appointment and needed to pick up some antibotics. I guess that means I should eliminate myself from any sort of breeding program. 

In your situation, keeping a few indoor pigeons as pets, I think that is a totally different issue. I am talking more about a person such as myself, that may raise 50 or 60 young birds every year, in order to form a YB team. If one of those birds should become sick, and can be saved by a pill, then that is fine. But, that bird may not be a good candidate for a breeding program, designed to breed a strain of disease resistant birds.

The question of ethics, did occur last year, when I gave a vaccine to 95% of my YB team for pox. Several of my YB's were out "lost" on a training flight only to return a couple of days later. When they returned, for reasons I can't recall. I chose not to give these birds the vaccine. As a result, they all came down with pigeon pox, but quickly recovered. Some went on to win some diplomas. As a result of this experience, I had to remember back to my childhood chicken pox, measles, etc. which today is treated with a vaccine. Now the reason for this is for convenience ? Would it be ethical and humane to allow my YB team to "catch" pox early in the season ? What about introducing this early in the year ? Then of course there is the whole range of illness that birds could be exposed to on training flights etc. What if the whole YB team was deliberlately exposed to a whole series of illness, just to determine if there was one or two in that 60 YB's, that just never got sick, and earmarked them for breeding ?
Ethics aside, there are those who have told me that it is impossible to develope such a strain of birds. My question is, has anyone ever tried ? I know it has been done in cattle and in plants.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Warren, 

I know my circumstances are different from many racing pigeon fanciers but the basic dilemma is still there. To medicate or try more conservative methods. Hopefully we can all gleam some knowledge from these discussions and perhaps start a new trend on breeding a more natural and disease resistant bird by conventional methods. If we only lived in a "Stepford" world


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

If the ability to breed disease resistant oysters is possible, then perhaps such an opportunity exsists in the bird world. The challenge for a racing pigeon fancier is wheather such a strain, would also retain all the other qualitys needed to win a race. 

http://www.mdsg.umd.edu/oysters/disease/breeding/


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Yes I think it is possible, But....*

Waren, Yes I think it is possible, but could we compete on the Winning Edge & in a humane way? I don't know. Would take a book of writing to try & explain all my thoughts on this. I'm sure we could let go of many of the drugs & Vac. if all flyer's would get togther, quit importing birds, use Purge or comperable spray for the dredded Pigeon Fly, etc., but afraid it's not going to happen in our lifetime.. The newer use of Probotics (as you said) is a great start on slowing this over-use of drugs down. There are others, like wire/steel Grate flooring. Anyway, anything that lets the droppings go through the bottom of loft onto Cement or Wood where our birds can't get to it. I know I'm getting away from your subject of breeding birds that are Immune, but think if we start by preventing these virus's & disease's we would be at a goood start....... Course then we put them in with our competetors birds on Trucks that aren't cared for in preventative ways & we are back at square one..... Guess I'm writing a lot of words to say very little. Read my new post & it will give you maybe a better idea of what I think......... Happy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Birds that are not exposed to different deseases .Will stay healthy. we have pmv now And I think it would hard to breed a strain of birds to be imune to it. Other desease Could be bred away from. But Shows races ect expose alot of health problems. If safer breeding is performed by many then some deseases can be done away with or perhaps brought to a stand still. . I just spent the last 5 days in the hospital. No fun there. Have phneamonia On a bunch of strong antibiotics myself now. I think some times its a must for treatments. But in the loft birds bred well and taken care of get sick less. So that is perhaps the best for results


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Robert,

I hope you are feeling better ! Nowadays, you got to be pretty sick to be in a hospital for five days. Take care of yourself.

I would think we could keep a pigeon in perfect health, if it was kept in a totally germ free lab. Unfortnately, with shows and races, there are plenty of germs to go around. Which explains why some commercial products are on the market, which instruct you to give their antibotics after every race, and through out the entire racing season.

The purpose of my original post, was to gain some insight into the value of a resistant strain to the pigeon fancy. I also wanted to get a feel of whether such a task could even be sucessful. From the racing pigeon fancier standpoint, I would think that the vitality to avoid illness, would be of the upmost importance. Since the bird in the best health, is quite often, if not always, the winner.

To accomblish such a task, would require a considerable committment to select breeding stock, based on health and vitality. As long as the problem is percieved as being "fixable" with a pill, then no real progress will come on the breeding front, untill the "pill" stops working.

I have given some thought as to the most humane way to accomblish this task, and so far, this is what I have come up with. No "preventative" drugs of any kind would be used. If a bird became sick, the birds band number would be recorded, and whatever was needed to save the bird would be administered. The bird could be raced, but would not be admitted to the breeding pen. Any babies this bird would be allowed to raise, would have to be from eggs transferred from the breeders that never required treatment. This bird that became sick, could go on to live a long, normal happy life. The only thing is, his or her genes would not be allowed to pass to future generations.

The above, is a far cry from current practice in many lofts. I am thinking this could be a start. Any thoughts ?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren. Yes I am starting to feel a little better. They said I needed to take it slow for another 5 days. And 5 days in a hospital was no fun at all. Im just gald they let me out. Had to beg for a couple of days. They told me when I could go a full 24 hours with out a high temp I could go. It went down some And im home. A bird I think exposed to other lofts birds will some get sick. No matter how healthy it is. And say a pmv surviver well its not going to be good for show or race most often never agin. Good loft management helps. For birds to get imune they have to be exposed. I do not think rounds of antibotics Should be consistant. during race season. vit, feed and standard pmv and perhaps pox treatment. Birds carry canker. when a little weak or streesed it can come about. Birds become carriers of parathyphoid. But it lays dorment and has to be bred out. Mixing the birds for a race. and some owners not knowing or not careing that they may have a sick bird sent to race exposes alot. I still think the closest is to breed from healthy use able birds. Keep them healthy. And only med as needed. reduces offsets. Remember back in the 60s 70s. Alot of people never medicated at all. Just feed water and fresh air. But then in the 80s pmv came along. Most the other deseases have been around for many years. Strong birds over come it. Sure some birds were lost. But not like todays pigeons. So not over medicating Is a good choice.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

Hope I am not butting in here, but this is facinating stuff!!

Robert - first of all, so sorry to hear you were ill enough to be hospitalized...very happy to hear you are home and hope you will be in top form very soon.

Warren - all of your posts had different thoughts that got me thinking, so I will repeat those ones before I respond:

*Here is the question: Is it possible, over time, to produce a strain of birds, where health and vitality are inherited. Where the use of antibotics and vaccinations are NEVER used ? If a bird is exposed to pox, PMV, or whatever, only those that recover, or fail to get sick are used to breed. Has anyone out there been working in this direction ?*

*What if the whole YB team was deliberlately exposed to a whole series of illness, just to determine if there was one or two in that 60 YB's, that just never got sick, and earmarked them for breeding*

This would be a facinating experiment, but not humane, I'm afraid. If a bird appears to be immune to a disease in the first place, will that natural immunity be passed on to its children? Or was it just luck that the bird didn't get sick? I don't think it would be inhumane to experiment with this theory as long as the ill bird would be given treatment.
The real question though, and the experiment that would probably not be humane would be to see if birds that got sick would be able to overcome the illness on their own and if they did recover, does that mean that this strength to overcome disease would be passed on to their children? The only way to try this would probably result in the deaths of birds that could be treated and recover otherwise, and that would be a no no. 

*I have given some thought as to the most humane way to accomblish this task, and so far, this is what I have come up with. No "preventative" drugs of any kind would be used. If a bird became sick, the birds band number would be recorded, and whatever was needed to save the bird would be administered. The bird could be raced, but would not be admitted to the breeding pen. Any babies this bird would be allowed to raise, would have to be from eggs transferred from the breeders that never required treatment. This bird that became sick, could go on to live a long, normal happy life. The only thing is, his or her genes would not be allowed to pass to future generations.*

This seems to be the best way of trying to test your theories....but, I wonder if experiments such as this have been done scientifically regarding other animals. I am right in the middle of an Anatomy and Physiology Bio Lab right now, and I will ask my Prof. about this tomorrow night. Will let you know if he has anything to offer on the subject.

Interesting topic.....

Linda


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Welcome back Re lee. I was wondering where you've been over the last week or so. Good to hear that you are doing better. 

As far as this thread goes on the idea of breeding for disease resistance, I think that PMV is one of those diseases that would be too difficult to get erradicate naturally. I think it would require a lot of time, effort and money devoted in laboratory conditions. You'd have to purposely expose birds to the virus and have them tested constantly and then select the ones that have been able to shake it off and then start breeding from those to further produce specimens that would have these same genes. It would be a huge undertaking with many casualties. 

Since this scenario is unlikely by any of us or scientists even, we will have to hope that the birds themselves will win the battle of this most deadly virus in the end.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Good stuff here, Personally I think that the line is somewhere in the middle but we want to slowly edge to breeding healthier pigeons that aren't easily hammered. 

I'm actually pretty lucky as I can compete without exposing my birds to others plus for the most part I keep a closed loft.
I think that there are many factors that play in such as envirement and "breeding" for me running a closed loft and not exposing my birds to other birds I find that breeding plays a huge huge part. 

But if your birds are exposed to others in either races or shows then this whole idea becomes more complicated. As there are just so many different strains of bad stuff out there . But the better the immune systems the better they are at beating down such things and genetics do play a large role.

Out of 80 - 100 birds I may has just a couple of Y/Bs go down on me once the cold and moist air hits, I don't treat them and for the most part they pop back on thier own. 
What I have found is when run antibiotics accross them is that they would go back down on me once the rigors of training resumed. I found this interesting.

As for PMV I think that those that survive of such, survive for a reason ,Now some are going to make it and end up with trashed kidneys (of which antibiotics ony compouds) but what about those that are unscathed completly ? now would I let PMV blow through the loft without me stepping in "NO" , I couldn't let it go, although in the long run it probably would'nt hurt if all that mattered was breeding healthy pigeons with strong immune systems. 

But there is a whole lot more to our breeding programs than just that. Otherwise we might as well just breed out of ferals which has to be one of the hardiest pigeons on the planet.

Take canker, why can you have one in the nest come down with throat canker and the other is healthy as a horse ? again though does it serve a purpose to let it rampage through the loft ? yea maybe if "only" the hardiest of pigeons were all that mattered. But I certainly would'nt let it happen here without stepping in.

Here a few years ago I was on a sqaub farm and noticed that a large pen had a dead bird in it,when I questioned it I was told that they don't medicate and the flocks survival depended on keeping thier immune systems up by letting things run thier coarse and "not" removing a bird that goes down with something. Every bird in the pen looked sharp eyed and in very strong health. Again would I take this approach ? of coarse not but there is still something to be learned from it.

I think that it all evolves around common sence and "not" being so quick to react with meds. Just my thoughts and opinion here, all of which can change tomorrow.
Scott

PS Robert gald to see that you are ok


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

This seems to be the best way of trying to test your theories....but, I wonder if experiments such as this have been done scientifically regarding other animals. I am right in the middle of an Anatomy and Physiology Bio Lab right now, and I will ask my Prof. about this tomorrow night. Will let you know if he has anything to offer on the subject.

Linda,

I am looking forward to your report.

My previous post concerning the exposing of illness to birds to be able to uncover those which have a stronger immune system. Please, let me restate here, that I was not suggesting anything like PMV or any other fatal condition. I was suggesting or meant to suggest things such as pox. Much in the same way my mother let me stay at home from school one day to play with my baby brother, who just happened to have measles.

Quite by accident, I did infect some members of my YB team last year with pox. There appeared to be no ill effects, and the birds did not appear uncomfortable in any way. One of them, went on to win a racing prize, and has never gotten sick since.

To deliberately expose my birds, or anyone else's to a deadly virus, would be an action I would consider criminal. I just wanted to clear that up, in case someone read into my academic discussion, that I would suggest Nazi style experiments.

A lot of fanciers, will give canker treaments in the water, to the whole loft, sick or not. This activity, I will go to my grave, thinking this is conterproductive. And is also what I meant by "preventative" drugs. Which I think is a misnomer, since the fancier is killing off all bacteria, good and bad. Exposing the bird to bacteria or a virus, which can enter the body, because there is no longer a wall of protective bacteria to kill it off.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Lin Hansen said:


> I wonder if experiments such as this have been done scientifically regarding other animals.


I tend to think that 99% of research conducted is the exact opposite, I would tend to believe that the drug companies for both human and animals alike are keeping REAL productive research in the closet. Unfortunately the big drug manufacturers aren't in the business to lose money by research that could actually HELP without drugs. Sad.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Yes Warren purposly exposing sick birds in would be nothing short of cruel. Plus there are just to many strains out there and would be fruitless. What I posted above was "what if " senerios , The fact is we must take every step that we can to prevent such disasters. PMV is a good example, I have seen the wrath of of it in " others" lofts , So I make darn sure that I vaccinate even though I breed out of a closed loft. I don't think that a truelly disease resistant bird could be bred . But I think that "all" around more likely to beat down problems that would knock down other birds can be breed. I might add that every tool that is needed to handle problems I keep at my disposal .


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> I tend to think that 99% of research conducted is the exact opposite, I would tend to believe that the drug companies for both human and animals alike are keeping REAL productive research in the closet. Unfortunately the big drug manufacturers aren't in the business to lose money by research that could actually HELP without drugs. Sad.



Yup, you are right, I am afraid. I guess I can be naive  .....why would drug companies want to do research on a result that could ultimately reduce sales of remedies? It's true. I think I will still bring the subject up in class tonight though to see what the Prof. has to say. He is an MD and also teaches microbiology at the college, so he may have interesting info to offer. Will let everyone know.

Linda


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Linda,

Not to mention all the "experts" who sell this "stuff" from a dozen different web sites. This is where, if I am not careful, I will find myself shooting myself in the foot.  

To read some of these sites, it is Impossible, to maintain a competitve loft without purchasing a dozens different powders, teas, tonics, etc. This song and dance gets repeated, and before you know it, it has now become Gospel !

After all, there is not much money to be made in the concept of good pigeons, good feed, fresh water, and a loft with lots of clean air. No Sir ! 

You need to buy a can of "Go Fast", which is crammed pack full of "Secret Stuff". If it is correctly and properly labled, then you can often find the same goods in a Tractor Supply or Horse supply place at a 75% discount.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Robert,

I'm very glad to hear that you're out of the hospital and on the mend. I bet your birds were happy to see you!

Bruce


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

I was not able to get a chance to talk to my Biology prof. about the subject at hand due to time constraints....was disappointed that I would not be able to add any new information, so did an internet search on the subject. I came up with this article which I thought looked very informative. Not knowing anything about racing and/or breeding, I asked Warren to review it for me to see if it would be suitable for posting, which he kindly did. (Thanks, Warren  ) I am sure the more experienced racers may have read all this information before, but I thought it might be helpful to people just getting into the sport. I would like to mention that "cullling" is brought up once or twice in the article, but it does not mean lethal culling...it is used in the sense that these birds are not to be used for breeding purposes.
Okay, hope everyone finds it helpful -- here it the link:

http://www.shewmaker.com/digest94.html

Linda


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

That site covers basic concept of selective breeding. Which would build a base of desired quility in the birds. It will not nessasary work towards a goal of desease resistance. As ther is several deseases that affect todays pigeons. The main one is pmv. The other deseases can be somewhat controled thru healthy birds. but pmv is a killer if not vacinated for. It can wipe out a whole loft or years worth of work in just a short time. It would be nice to have someone comeup with a one time vacine. As of now its a six month thing. But most will just vacine one time yearly.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Selective Breeding*

There has been, and always will be, differences of thinking, as to what can be achieved through the process of selective breeding. If you are selecting birds for breeding purposes that have resisted illness, then I see no reason why this quality, can not be transfered to following generations.

If someone has some scientific evidence, which indicates otherwise, then I would be happy to see it. The more research that I do, the more convinced I am, that part of the solution is a better selection process. 

Anyone want to venture a guess, as to what breed of dog, has a very high resistance to various ailments which dogs in general fall victim to ? I will give you a hint, this breed is considered rare in the US.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Birds that are not overcrowded, Given good grain water Good fresh air A dry loft Will most often not get sick as easy as others. And perhaps you can breed towards resistive birds. It would be a long process. But wild birds I think are healthyer then alot of the loft birds. I think this relates to open air exchange. So they do not exchange sickness as easy. Would that dog be a wild type.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Robert,

You would be correct. I was watching a TV show, where another breed of African dog was the subject. They went to a tribe to secure future breeding stock. The wilds of Africa, and natural selection, had created a very hearty breed of dog. I also found this site concerning another "Wild" dog of Africa.

http://www.sa-breeders.co.za/org/africanis/

I agree with you, that ideal management, will prevent most illness. I think you may also be correct, that "Wild" ferals, may in fact, be more resistant to illness, simply because of the fact, that they are not made artificially healthy by various drugs. Only those who manage to make it to adulthood without any "Help" will be able to raise young.

As far as the time it will take, you again may be correct. Until we attempt to breed for health and vitality, we may never know. The challenge is trying to figure out, if we are making progress. Perhaps my birds are no more resistant then any other, perhaps only my management and care, is keeping them super healthy ? 

I would invite correspondence from anyone, who may be working on breeding vitality in their own lofts. Perhaps we could compare some notes ?

[email protected]


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

With different ideas for health. I have known of some people that would not let other people in there lofts. For better health control of there birds. Perhaps. The racing homers are some of the most exposed. As being hauled to the race They get almost crowded together. In the truck or trailer. They are rather healthy to with stand that . Plus. Some places have provided fresh air exchange thru the truck. to enhance healthy transporting. With the threat of a new bird flu I wonder if the medical people have looked at a vacine such as pmv was done for pigeons So I still think air exchange will enhance health. And no over meds as some people will medicate to often. And that weakens birds over time. Wher they can not build antibodys. Meds should be given when needed. And as say a treatment. But no more then that. Ive where one bird gets sick the whole flock is treated. Where just that bird should be pulled and treated.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Robert I was thinking the same this as far as racers have to be tough birds anyway. I think where many can get into trouble is with the breeds where the good one's aren't bred with the stamina of plow horses. Birmingham Rollers are a good example of this as I would imagine the show type birds are. I think that above all they have to be just "good" pigeons. And then breed towards the traits that we are looking for and allways keeping an eye on vitality.

Scott


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I would think in that line also. Scott. Show birds have become loft birds. And lofts some do not have good air exchange . And show birds are bred for show. So vitality Is not as noticed as they would be out of shape. because not getting exersise.


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