# color question again



## jesselevi (Nov 28, 2013)

I'm posting pics of this bird one last time because I'm still confused as to what exactly the breakdown of his genetics are. I know he's ash red t-check. Some of his tail feathers are typical for ash red (I.e. grey with white bar) but some tail feathers are pure white. Is he spread or just have a white gene? Also, each wing has 1 white secondary feather in the same spot. What does that indicate, if anything? Does he also have bronze? Thank you for your help and for putting up with me. I promise to stop asking questions.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

looks like a velvet ash red(t-pattern) with splash. I have a bird similar but the bird is a homer and it dont have splash.


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## jesselevi (Nov 28, 2013)

Does velvet mean that there is no visible (t) on the shield feathers.In other words,does it mean that it is a darker variation of check?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

"Velvet" is a term used to describe the deep red coloration of your ash red check. It can be caused by a few different genetic modifiers such as dirty, bronze, smoky or even indigo in some cases. I think it's bronze and/or dirty in your bird because smokey would cause a lighter coloration on the beak and indigo would lighten the flights a bit more. The flights on your bird look bronze.

The various white feathers on the bird are due to piebald genes which are totally separate from the red and ash colors and may be rec. or dom. in nature.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

don't stop asking questions!!!! White piebald genes like that are always separate from the basic color and other modifying genes. Think of your bird as an ash red T-pattern (or "velvet"). The piebald genes are like somebody splashed some white paint on him. ?He is still the ash red t-pattern underneath the white "paint". 
The same would be true with something like a baldhead roller or Capuchine or other breed with white. It is still a "blue bar" or "ash red T-pattern" or whatever even though there is white.


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## jesselevi (Nov 28, 2013)

Woodnative,Thank you.That makes sense to me.Is it a dominant gene that will carry to the young?And is the beard a seperate piebald gene?


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

That is where it gets complex.....there seems to be many different piebald genes..........some rec some dominant, some seem to effect one part and some show up randomly. Hard to say. If I were a betting man though I think you would see that show up in at least half the young. The exact placement of the white will vary and some birds could have more than others, but you will probably have it in some of the youngsters. 
A long time ago I had a mix pair of fantails......the hen was black, the cock was blue grizzle pied (about half white). I got all kinds of youngsters out of that pair.....solid whites, solids blacks and blues, all kinds of pieds ranging from a few white feathers to only a few colored feathers. I got a decently marked tailmark and decently marked bodymark out of them too. Do you have a hen picked out for him??


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## jesselevi (Nov 28, 2013)

He is already paired with this hen.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

You can expect a rainbow of color in the offspring from that pair.


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## jesselevi (Nov 28, 2013)

I've been trying to figure out what I should get.The hen is spread so does that mean that some young will be blue spread,and some ash red spread?Should I also get red grizzle?


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

jesselevi said:


> I've been trying to figure out what I should get.The hen is spread so does that mean that some young will be blue spread,and some ash red spread?Should I also get red grizzle?


Yes that bird it pair up with is grizzle spread. She is definitely a homozygous grizzle(meaning both her parents are grizzle as well).

I assume you will likely get more grizzle out of them since its a dominate gene and also as for spread as well. 

Since the cock is red and the hen is blue, all offspring cock will be red split from blue (unless the cock is split from blue but the cock doe not seem to be split from blue) and and all offspring hens will be blue and red. Yes they will all be heterozygous grizzle and 50% chance they will be spread. But who knows for sure, just guessing here and there due to the color we can see visibly.

Also pie + grizzle can have lots of variation. you may even get a pure white bird.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Yes, yes and yes, if the cock is het. ash red. If he's ****. ash red then all will be ash red with some being grizzle. If hen is **** grizzle then all will be grizzle. If hen is ****. spread then all will be spread. So, if he's ****. ash and she's ****. spread then all young will be spread ash red, but the pattern of hen is unknown and we don't know if cock carries bar. We could go on with many, many more ifs. Report back after half a dozen young are feathered in and we can make a closer prediction of what their genotypes are.


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