# Help, lazy pigeons



## basl77 (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi,

I live in Iran, have 10 pigeons--most are mixed breeds...I have one really good female high-flyer, one somewhat good male high-flyer (I was told it was a high-flyer, but has yet to prove himself), another mixed high-flyer,4 mixed racing/homer pigeons, one I am not sure what breed it is and one that I got yesterday and haven't released it yet. My problem is that they fly to the neighbor's rooftop and sit there for a long time. the racing pigeons are about 6 months old and I regularly toss them and they have good homing instinct. One of them was lost for almost 3 days and returned on the third day. But I'm getting tired of doing that every single day. HOW CAN I GET THEM TO FLY around the loft? I keep them in our big greenhouse on our rooftop. They eat and drink only once a day in the evening. I release them in the morning and they're out until whenever they want. They don't seem to exercise in the greenhouse. they're almost always sitting when I go to release them. They're always hungry but I don't believe I underfeed them. Plenty of sunshine and bathwater.They are 5 females and 5 males, but except one pair that's incubating now the rest aren't paired. The longest they tend to fly is 2 minutes, most of them don't fly around the loft and only the high-flyer female circles around for 2-3 minutes and sits on neighbor's rooftop beside the others. What can I do to increase flying time? Are the racers the problem? (some of them are mixed and fly longer than others). I had no idea that I'd be this bored and frustrated when I first started my loft. Can someone pinpoint what I need to do differently? I don't circle a flag but just a black long hose along with throwing different objects in the air which do help some, but no matter how long my flag or hose, it'd be too far to reach them and get them off the neighbor's rooftop. They're fit and healthy except the paired couple who although fly well had a wing accident and do tend to come down a little quicker or not take off as fast as the other ones, but I am still not ready to cull them. Pigeon grit is always available for them. They eat millet, wheat, corn and sometimes just bread. There is no pigeons feed in Iran, this is the only diet that everyone feeds their pigeons here and some don't even do as varied as I.

Hope someone can help.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Sounds like you have wonderful birds. Not sure why they are not flying more. I understand they will return home faster when they have young and a mate waiting in the loft. But in the loft it is natural for them not to get much exercise. Can you post photos? Would love to see them. I think the fun is not in flying them but getting to know their unique personalities, interacting with them, and taming them which takes a while. Hope you can just enjoy them for doing what pigeons do which is eat, walk around, and socialize with each other and with you. Please be patient and don't cull any. Our dearest love and favorite pigeon, Phoebe, had a wing injury and became the tamest most wonderful friend imaginable. Hope you can post photos soon.


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## basl77 (Aug 9, 2015)

*pics*

Hi,

I tried to get a picture of the newly hatched chicks under their mom too!
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...tt&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...t&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.29&disp=safe&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...t&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.39&disp=safe&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...t&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.45&disp=safe&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...t&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.11&disp=safe&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...tt&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.5&disp=safe&zw
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...t&th=153098032010688d&attid=0.19&disp=safe&zw


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. Welcome to PT. Mix breeds do mixed things. Free pigeons normally fly in the morning and before roosting at night. In your case, yours are becoming like them by sitting around and waiting for sunset to fly a little. If you don't mind loosing some birds, then take the best fit birds in twos and let them fly home from a distance you can see them from the loft. Then increase that until they get in shape. When you liberate them, do not throw them up, just let them come in contact with the ground on their own if you can. Then when you think they are calm, make a distinct sound to scare them with: and/or use an object to scare them with, so they can fly away and go home hopefully. Have your other pigeons wait on the roof for them. If they come home, then do this whenever you can while increasing their distance. So, the reason for not tossing them is that your scaring noise or objects must be printed in their mind so that every time they hear or see them: they will want to fly. Other times they can be your tame pets if you wish. I suggest you not fly the racers with the high flyers, because unless they are mixed racer/high flyers they would most likely land in one minute if they see other pigeons on the loft roof. So, lock all your pigeons up if you do not want the released birds to land soon and do the opposite if you want them to land. 
The food: if you have read anything about endurance flyers, then you may know that corn is not a food of choice for them. Stick with millet, barley, and wheat. Adjust as you see necessary, but get them to eat barley if you can most of the time so they can start to loose some weight while feeling like they are full. Then every other day add the millet to their food and release them the next day: in other words, feed the millet on the day that they did not fly. I am not sure about your winters, but wheat will keep them warm if you need to. Or you can just feed the flyers straight wheat and see how they do. 
Question: what happens if you do not feed you birds for a day or two, just water them and keep them closed. What happens when you open the door? Do they come out fast and fly to the roof or they just fly up and land? Do you feed them in the loft and outside? When i used to feed my birds outside, they used to come out of their houses and fly to the feeding table. This was their morning habit. Some times i would use millet on the table and watch them. They would finish the millet and, suddenly would have the urge to fly a little. 
The most important aspect for flying pigeons is their health. Then, their genetics. Then conditioning if you ask me. Sick/injured ones are afraid to fly or they tire fast. Once they are healthy, they will want to fly, sometimes too much. And this is where you need to condition them so they do not get lost. But this last step may seem like a far away picture for you because it is for now. Because we do not know the genetics of all your pigeons. Breed some birds from the best flyers or all of them and see whose babies fly the way you want, then decide on culling them/parents. 
These days i am mainly concentrating on having birds that can fly all year long without too much predatory loses. It is not hard to get pigeons to fly high.  If one had the conditioned bird, which was in shape, all one needed to do is encourage it to fly and land. The rest is to breed it correctly so the genes are protected for the future flying. Have fun and good luck.


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## basl77 (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi Hamlet,

Thanks for replying and some pointers to consider. 

Just a few of days ago the three young homers took off when I scared them off the rooftop and flew for almost 10-15 minutes on their own...They became dots in the distant and scanned the whole area before returning. It was a great sight and I don't know what it was attributed to, but they haven't done that again since. Hopefully my high-flyers do the same one day.

As for keeping them unfed for a day or two, I have never done it. The thought had crossed my mind several times, but have never really gone through with it. Although, I had never considered taking away food for two whole days, as I worry that might be crossing the line of welfare issues, I'll start with a day tonight and see what happens. Another point you brought up was keeping them closed for a day or two. I'll experiment a bit and see if they behave differently. 

I'll cut corn out of their diet and stick mostly with barley/wheat as you mentioned with adding millet on the day they're kept inside. 

There seems to be a general consensus among Iranian fanciers not to keep water in the loft all day long as drinking reduces their mobility. So, I only water late in the evening after they're fed, and then take it out after a few hours at night. But I will leave water in on the days they're not released.

Curiously, I have seen the young homers/racers get very excited, flapping their wings and flying fast inside the loft after they're fed in the evening. That's been a mystery to me but going with what you mentioned, food may have an exhilarating effect on them, causing them to jump up and down.

They get their main feed inside the loft close to sunset--again this practice is recommended by Iranian fanciers. Sometimes, when I get really bored, I shake the feed-shaker at midday, inviting them to get off the neighbor's rooftop to come down and peck at some bread crumbs, but give very little so they don't get full to want to sit all day. 

I'll try you'r suggestion regarding releasing the high-flyers away from the house, though I live in a major city with high-rise buildings and I'd be nervous about losing them. Maybe I'll try and release them once with the homers so hopefully they will follow them to the house and learn their way around some. I've had the high-flyers for about a couple of months and am not sure they're fully settled yet, and don't want them to want to return somewhere else when they're released away from the house.

Question: there is a saying in Iran that every pigeon should not get more than one matchbox worth of feed or they'll become too lazy, unless they're nursing. What measurement do you use to feed yours?

Regards


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## basl77 (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi Hamlet,

I released one of my high-flyers at a distance from the house today and it flew home. I couldn't resist and did the same at a farther distance. It took him about 15 minutes and made it home alright. It was exciting and nerve racking at the same time. I want to do the same thing tomorrow from a farther distance.

On a not so positive note, I kept back food last night, and today one of the new birds went missing in the afternoon. This had happened before when a high-flyer who had been at the loft for almost a month went missing when I withheld food for more than a day. What I did wrong was that I trusted too quickly that they had settled, right? In future, I should keep the unsettled hungry ones inside, so they don't get the urge to want to return to their previous home, right?

Thanks


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I feed one table spoon of food per bird a day. And my answer to your second question is plausable, but i think that the lost ones may have flown very high and got lost. My question: did the lost bird/birds get take off in a hurry, out of their house or the usuall? I am sorry for your loss. These missfortunes lead have lead us, fanciers to keep the new birds prisioners, for a few clutches in hopes of aclimating them better. I used to keep the feathers trimmed untill they grey back naturally on new found birds. If they went back to their old home, then these are birds you want to keep if you can get back. For they have the genes to keep their offspring from getting lost at your care. 
Witholding water, many would strongly disagree. But, even though i do not practice that these days, i agree that the birds seem more lively when i liberated them without water in their cages. However i did not see an improvement in their flight duration. In fact, world champion pigeons were fed and watered shortly before liberation. But i think that the old reason behind not watering the birds in the loft was/is that this practice is hygenic for the birds. Harmful bugs along with rats/mice multiply to dangerous levels in a semi enclosed loft. Therefore i used to water them enough so that the watering can would be dry for next watering time. And the small drinkers get replaced with new cups, while the used ones get air/sun dried. Bottom line: unless you have a secure loft from vermin/ wild birds/ ect., keep the watering jug/can away from bird poop, sunlight and loft dust. And, air dry it daily if you can. Some people use water disenfectants in the drinkers/cans but i do not need to. 
If possible, pair your new comers so they have a stronger urge to stay by your loft, but it is not a guarantee with good newcomer birds. Another thing, your homers may be too fast and counter productive in training new highflyers, because the risk of them going out of breath to catch up to the racers and having to land in foreign rooftops. Good luck.


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

If your birds are always hungry, when let out they will go into fields, looking for food. They will stay out all day looking for food. I found if I fed "before" I let the birds out that they will fly for an hour or more BUT they would not come in when called ! So - its a 2 way street, feed them before they go out and they fly but you lose some control. I give food when they come in too - its a reward to try to get them in but also while flying they burned up the food they got earlier.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

basl77 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I live in Iran, have 10 pigeons--most are mixed breeds...I have one really good female high-flyer, one somewhat good male high-flyer (I was told it was a high-flyer, but has yet to prove himself), another mixed high-flyer,4 mixed racing/homer pigeons, one I am not sure what breed it is and one that I got yesterday and haven't released it yet. My problem is that they fly to the neighbor's rooftop and sit there for a long time. the racing pigeons are about 6 months old and I regularly toss them and they have good homing instinct. One of them was lost for almost 3 days and returned on the third day. But I'm getting tired of doing that every single day. HOW CAN I GET THEM TO FLY around the loft? I keep them in our big greenhouse on our rooftop. They eat and drink only once a day in the evening. I release them in the morning and they're out until whenever they want. They don't seem to exercise in the greenhouse. they're almost always sitting when I go to release them. They're always hungry but I don't believe I underfeed them. Plenty of sunshine and bathwater.They are 5 females and 5 males, but except one pair that's incubating now the rest aren't paired. The longest they tend to fly is 2 minutes, most of them don't fly around the loft and only the high-flyer female circles around for 2-3 minutes and sits on neighbor's rooftop beside the others. What can I do to increase flying time? Are the racers the problem? (some of them are mixed and fly longer than others). I had no idea that I'd be this bored and frustrated when I first started my loft. Can someone pinpoint what I need to do differently? I don't circle a flag but just a black long hose along with throwing different objects in the air which do help some, but no matter how long my flag or hose, it'd be too far to reach them and get them off the neighbor's rooftop. They're fit and healthy except the paired couple who although fly well had a wing accident and do tend to come down a little quicker or not take off as fast as the other ones, but I am still not ready to cull them. Pigeon grit is always available for them. They eat millet, wheat, corn and sometimes just bread. There is no pigeons feed in Iran, this is the only diet that everyone feeds their pigeons here and some don't even do as varied as I.
> 
> Hope someone can help.


Why can't they do what they want? Are you competing in a race or competition? If not, just enjoy the birds and drop the need for control over them. If they come back then they are doing you a favor just for that.


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## basl77 (Aug 9, 2015)

This is a follow up on an old post, but I was wondering if I can get them reconditioned. See, I want them not to sit on the neighbor's roof. That's become their safety place, sitting there not to be bothered. Can I retrain them? Some people believe that those are lost cause and can not unlearn the behavior. I tend to think otherwise because science has shown time and again that behavior can be unlearned. Thank you


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## skip (Jun 11, 2014)

Yes they can be retrained, much easiest by bringing up some young birds, eventually for the lazy ones to copy. For the squeakers by using feed to get them into the loft from their first excursions, and never to tend to go to other buildings: they would never become accustomed to sit there, and anyway they would always want food when released, and not to sit around. 

(If ever they had tried sitting on a neighbouring roof, and been allowed to get away with it, they would feel safe there like the older lot, especially if not hungry enough to return straight to the loft). 

The risk is that the young pigeons (those being used to attract the older ones away from the roof back to the loft), would themselves be led astray so they would have to be trained separately at first and later be flagged off immediately if they went anywhere but the loft (along with the old ones once their retraining had started, with them being ravenous), otherwise with no chasing, just the lure of food to get them _in_ not _on_ the loft. Therefore never feed outside, so they are already_ in_ the loft once satisfied, and cannot go to sit somewhere else. 
Repeat + repeat = habit 

As for flying willingly/high flying, the first clearly varies widely between breeds, and between strains within breeds, according to the selection being practiced, but again feeding is relevant.... 

Generally:- 
- They are most active, wanting to fly, when their crops are just empty (not necessarily _really_ hungry, just when they simply want food) 
or 
- If there is food in their crops, they would want just to sit around, obviously also being out of any control by the breeder.

In flying breeds I believe a particular group will fly longer when kept a bit short over time, while reducing their weight and getting them super-fit by flying regularly, then fed gradually or suddenly more and perhaps rested for a day or days before the fly - see various advice about tippler training. 

Otherwise the weather and the condition of the birds will affect the time and height at which they fly. If they are frightened by birds of prey or in rising air or thermals they will also go very high on occasion, but it can become habitual, according to training and the most recent schedule of feeding.


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