# How To Breed World Class Champion Racing Pigeons



## SmithFamilyLoft

How does one actually breed a better quality pigeon ? I had attempted to ask the question in a previous thread, "What is a quality pigeon" with little response. My thinking has been if one is not even sure what a quality pigeon is, how then would one would proceed to try to produce one. I have no answer for that, as I suspect one would have to have some clue as to what the champion should look like.

The first question that I think we need to pause and think about, is it possible to produce something very exceptional, from something that is very typical and average ?

I suspect that a "good" pigeon can come from pigeons which had no race record, or a very typical or average race record. Genetically however, the "winning" genes must be present within the parents, or they could never have passed on these genes in the first place. So, the parents needs to have those winning genes, even if one can't see them, or are apparently missing. 

So, the first thing, would be to insure first of all that the birds within the breeding loft actually have the winning genes to start with. The best way to know this, is to use birds for breeders that have demonstrated they actually have the winning genes. By either having a Champion race record and/or a Champion Breeding Record. Ideally, one starts with a Champion Racer which as a breeder, has produced winning offspring. 

Once the bench of talent runs generations deep of Champion Racer/Breeder produces Champion Racer/Breeder produces Champion Racer/Breeder then one has arrived at the point where the term "family" can really be meaningful. Obtaining one of these Champion Racers/Breeders can change the direction of a colony forever in very positive ways. Without the winning start, the typical colony can reproduce for decades and never move beyond mediocre or average. Somehow, by some means, those winning genes have to be introduced and maintained, or else a hundred years could pass and nothing much would change. You simply can not produce winning or breeding champion's unless those genes are present in the parents.


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## raftree3

Great topic. Now that the YB season is past the halfway mark I'm dreaming about next year and how I'm going to produce some "World Class Pigeons". I've read with interest Steven Van Breeman's thoughts and would like to try to follow some of them. I'm to a point in life where I'd rather not buy green banana's. I want to raise birds to race. I'm pretty well convinced that within my little family of birds who are all race winners and race winning producers for several generations, my course of action needs to be continual outcrosses to produce that hybrid vigor. My background is in the horse business and I'm well aware that this method either works great or totally not at all. Some would suggest that I produce some inbred stock from my birds but I don't have the time or space. If they're not racing with some success I need to move on.


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## hillfamilyloft

I think first one needs to assess the level at which he/she wants to achieve. A winning bird looks a lot differently, from loft to club to combine. Also from club to one-loft race. A guy can win every day in a club with limited competition whereas his birds may never clock in a one-loft race. In other words winners look a lot differently from one individual to another. 

So your "world class" may mean different things to different folks. Truly world class pigeons win against thousands of birds against the best competition. My futurity winner "Maverick" is probably not that pigeon. But for my standards he is a "winner". I can say that my stock has "World Class Pedigrees" with local winning results. I cannot see me having the funds to test my birds against the world, say in South Africa etc. Maybe regional races eventually.


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## Matt Bell

I think this is a great topic, and I wish I was better at genetics than I am in order to actually genetically test this. I have a feeling that this 'winning' trait is actually highly multi-genic, just like height in humans. Two fairly short parents can have a tall offspring due to this. So I suspect that two fairly average pigeons can have a very good racing pigeon offspring, though wouldn't happen all the time. The trick I think would be identifying these traits, inbreeding them in order to set them (I am thinking that some may be recessive, and thus hard to set as they would have to be homozygous in order to be expressed) and then doing this over and over again for each gene locus. Obviously this would be much easier if we knew where they were in the pigeon genome, could map them, then could take a genetic sample of 'breeder' pigeons and see which mating would best produce what we are looking for. We are far far from being able to do this, heck I don't know if we will ever be able to do this. But if so, this would eliminate quality of the birds from the equation and would leave the racing and winning up to the fancier solely. Almost like coaching, the better coach will win if the teams are physically and mentally equal. Interesting topic!


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## hillfamilyloft

Matt Bell said:


> I think this is a great topic, and I wish I was better at genetics than I am in order to actually genetically test this. I have a feeling that this 'winning' trait is actually highly multi-genic, just like height in humans. Two fairly short parents can have a tall offspring due to this. So I suspect that two fairly average pigeons can have a very good racing pigeon offspring, though wouldn't happen all the time. The trick I think would be identifying these traits, inbreeding them in order to set them (I am thinking that some may be recessive, and thus hard to set as they would have to be homozygous in order to be expressed) and then doing this over and over again for each gene locus. Obviously this would be much easier if we knew where they were in the pigeon genome, could map them, then could take a genetic sample of 'breeder' pigeons and see which mating would best produce what we are looking for. We are far far from being able to do this, heck I don't know if we will ever be able to do this. But if so, this would eliminate quality of the birds from the equation and would leave the racing and winning up to the fancier solely. Almost like coaching, the better coach will win if the teams are physically and mentally equal. Interesting topic!


Restrictor plate racing for pigeons. Chances are if we ever could map the genome for winning loci that they would not be related to anything that produces traits not related to those mental and physically related to flying fast and homing in. I still think random selection has a less chance of producing a winner than to breed two birds that have already won. Those birds have winning genes by definition because they have simply won a race. Like breeds like more often than not.


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## Matt Bell

Hillfamilyloft, I absolutely agree that like breeds like more often than not and that pigeons which have won have a better chance of breeding a winning pigeon than those that have never won before. However, imagine that in the future we have the genome of the pigeon mapped, and we see that these 'winning' genes are are at 15 different loci throughout the genome. Now a truly world class pigeon may have as many as 12 of these loci expressing the 'winning' genes. A winner in a club may only have 7 'winning' genes expressed. Another club winner may have 8 'winning' genes, the opposite locis of the other club winner. Now if you were to breed the 2 club winners together you have a chance of getting all 15 loci to have the 'winning' genes expressed. On the other hand you also have the chance of getting 0 winning genes out of that mating. Almost like playing the lottery, haha!


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## hillfamilyloft

Sometimes I think genetics plays a lesser part in winning than external factors. Some fliers may have the best birds in the world genetically and can not win a race for the life of them. The guy with average birds wins them all. One thing that backs up your random view point is who wins the one loft races. Many times it is random people with random birds. Every once in a while you will see repeat winners.


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## hillfamilyloft

Some will lead you to believe they are repeat winners with wonderful birds, but when you look at how many birds they enter and winning percentage, they are usually no better. Just sell that they are winners more. The best competition I have entered my birds in happens to be the ABQ club. 400 birds a race, 25 fanciers, all have top notch birds. All fliers I highly motivated to win and no one is dominant in the club. I look at genetics in my loft as the family of birds that performs best in multiple lofts in the club. That is the genetic direction I take my loft. Nothing random about it.


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## Xueoo

Maybe you should change the title to something other than "How To Breed World Class Champion Racing Pigeons". 

"How to" should give step by step, or at least a theory, on breeding World Class Champion Racing Pigeons. 

But, I know what you're trying to get at.

Breeding philosophies and methods and success vary as much as anything else. For every inbred "super breeder" you can find there are as many or more crossed "super breeder"...and vise versa. There's no one better way than another. All methods work and don't work equally. It all comes down to the breeders eye for selecting the breeders he thinks can pass on the desireable traits. 

Also, as Hillfamily has said, one "needs to assess the level at which he/she wants to achieve". This is a big country with many clubs and one loft races every year across 3000 miles. But, maybe "World Class" means somewhere where breeders from all over the world send birds to race, such as the Million Dollar Race, or something similar. In that case, forget about trying, as not many will get there. Might as well try for "good" pigeons instead and try to win some club races. 

Pigeon racing have so many levels and somebody at each level can claim to have "champions" and it would be true.


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## hillfamilyloft

Sometimes you will find that guys that do well in big races like the Million Dollar race cannot win in the club. I think we underestimate the quality of birds in some of our local clubs.


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## hillfamilyloft

If I could put "breeding a champion" strategy that I use in a nut shell it would simply be:
Start with the best birds you can afford. Only keep say the top 20% of racers and breeders in your loft. Breed from them. Do this repeatedly over a few years. In say a dozen years you took the cream of the cream of the cream of your loft. Periodically introduce outside blood that is objectively better than yours. In other words beats your in the races. If this strategy does not take you to the top of the race sheets, then start over with better birds.


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## raftree3

Here's an example of what "Average" pigeons can produce. I have a young pair who were mated for the first time this year. The cock was bred for stock and was a gift from a friend. He has a real nice pedigree and his parents have both produced winners. The hen was also a gift. She has a nice enough pedigree but you have to go back another generation to find a winner. So neither of these birds ever flew a race. They had eight babies this year. Of the eight, six are racing. As of our clubs 5th race one bird has one win, another has a second, another a 4th and another a 7th and an 11th. Another bird is being flown by another guy to prepare for a futurity and has some real good races and the last is one of the better birds in the PT Classic. These birds have had to fly against some real good competition and good flyers. I think that's one of the fun things about this game....you just never know!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> If I could put "breeding a champion" strategy that I use in a nut shell it would simply be:
> Start with the best birds you can afford. Only keep say the top 20% of racers and breeders in your loft. Breed from them. Do this repeatedly over a few years. In say a dozen years you took the cream of the cream of the cream of your loft. Periodically introduce outside blood that is objectively better than yours. In other words beats your in the races. If this strategy does not take you to the top of the race sheets, *then start over *with better birds.




I like your suggestion, but I had to laugh at the end. If say after so many years it does not work, start over !! 

I think what happens is, in the rush to get started, many new fanciers end up with all kinds of birds, from all kinds of places. Some may be "good" specimens, but the general trend is to gift birds from the last round, or unpaired breeders, etc. May take a decade or more to build a consistent family with these first birds, maybe longer, maybe never. In the good ole days, there was this thing called a "mentor" but suggestions to develop a mentor or two, often falls on death ears. So, I share a few links, which most likely will make as much sense to you as it did me. We are not really talking rocket science here. 

Here are some good consistent thoughts : http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/don-glionna.htm as to where someone started.

Suggest you find various breeding articles, but some of special note: *“Good Pigeons Make Master Breeders”* The Vandenheede Story By Silvio Mattacchione BA MA synergy

also:

*The Gyselbrecht Strain*
By Silvio Mattacchione BA MA


This sums up this article in a few words.....*From an early age he (Dr. Carlo) instinctively understood that the real key to success was the search for the “best of the best”. We should define this rather liquid term ,“best of the best” it really means that one’s true task, if one is to really succeed, is to locate exceptional specimens that have an extremely long history of world class performances coupled with prepotency that is inter-generational in nature.*

How can I argue with some of the greatest authorities on the planet ? All of these great fanciers talk about a performance based family, which spans generations. And perhaps that eternal search for something better then what you already have. Because the better the birds you currently own, then the harder it becomes to find something better then what you already own.


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## hillfamilyloft

raftree3 said:


> Here's an example of what "Average" pigeons can produce. I have a young pair who were mated for the first time this year. The cock was bred for stock and was a gift from a friend. He has a real nice pedigree and his parents have both produced winners. The hen was also a gift. She has a nice enough pedigree but you have to go back another generation to find a winner. So neither of these birds ever flew a race. They had eight babies this year. Of the eight, six are racing. As of our clubs 5th race one bird has one win, another has a second, another a 4th and another a 7th and an 11th. Another bird is being flown by another guy to prepare for a futurity and has some real good races and the last is one of the better birds in the PT Classic. These birds have had to fly against some real good competition and good flyers. I think that's one of the fun things about this game....you just never know!


Last year I crossed a brother and sister pair for Ace In the Hole to my blood. We had about 6 birds go and fly in ABQ out of the two pair. Four were solid birds. This is when I ask myself. If four were good should I stock them all and cross them back in. Is this the family I am looking for?. I would ask myself at the end of the season. Are these six out of the eight better than anything else in the loft besides their parents? If the answer is yes, I would stock those six and the parents. Now the question is do I inbreed them to the parents? I would not cross them into birds in the loft that you find them superior to. It may be a good opportunity to seek out equal or better birds to cross in. Say someone else's top birds that win. May be time to do a bird exchange or loan a few of your top for someone's toppers. This method could in one season replace middle of the road birds with better birds. If you are lucky you have two or three pair that breed like the one you mentioned. Then you are in business. You can cross those families. Under this system you must be willing to replace breeders that do not cut it every year.


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## hillfamilyloft

I crossed the birds from Ace into my Kahuna family that has already proven itself. I crossed his two to Kahuna and a daughter of his. It made it easy when I brought them back to cross the offspring of the brother and sister. The other birds I did not have a mate to, I crossed into birds of the same bloodlines. Did not get enough birds off them this year to test, but next year I should have a pool of about 20 to assess out of Ace's birds. At present, I am working with three families. These two and my Ed family. Let your results guide your decisions and you will better off. If at the end of the season your 6 of 8 have proven good results, I would stock them all. This is golden pair type luck. Assuming the competition they are flying against is quality. Even if not they are making your loft better.


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## raftree3

Great advice. Any advice is alway's appreciated. With a few exceptions the majority of my breeders are all related so I think in trying to follow your point that I will at least introduce a hen and a cock from my "example" pair into the family. I'm not sure I want invest the time or room into breeding the racers back to their parents, but I'm open to any suggestions.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> If I could put "breeding a champion" strategy that I use in a nut shell it would simply be:
> Start with the best birds you can afford. Only keep say the top 20% of racers and breeders in your loft. Breed from them. Do this repeatedly over a few years. In say a dozen years you took the cream of the cream of the cream of your loft. Periodically introduce outside blood that is objectively better than yours. In other words beats your in the races. If this strategy does not take you to the top of the race sheets, then start over with better birds.


 I think the thing to keep in mind, is that the "average" flier, over time, is only applying average selective pressure to his colony, and thus over time, nothing should be expected other then ordinary results. 

Yet, just like Albert Einstein was quoted as saying that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. Your "typical" fancier will do just that....I suspect, that some measure of "Hope" is thought to cause some kind of miracle to happen.

#1. Start with the absolute finest breeding specimens you can obtain. This can not be overstated. In theory, you may correct any number of faults, if one has enough generations to work with. Every fancier has a limited number of years on this earth, so if you start with junk, you could fix that in theory, if you had an extra 125 years, but you will simply be a race loser for the rest of your pigeon racing career, be it 10 or 50 + years. 

#2. Only retain those birds for breeding which have distinguished themselves on the race course. There have been some great exceptions to this rule, but once you start making all kinds of exceptions, you start becoming more average, because that is what everyone does. I can't provide you with an exact number, but certainly these "exceptional" pigeons are going to occur in much less then 20% of your racers. Certainly would be a multiple race winner, and/or delivers a number of impressive performances over a series of races. The more the events, the better. "AU Champion" or other such designations would certainly indicate the type of "exceptional" measuring stick one should look towards. The higher the self imposed bar you set, the faster positive change will occur within the colony. 

#3. This I believe is also important, but is also most difficult for many fanciers to do. I don't know what the "magic" number might be, but I have settled on a number of 20%. This is the number of breeding pairs which should be removed from your breeding loft, to make room for even more promising breeders. As you "retire" successful racers, you must create room by moving out some of your older breeders. Why is this important ? Because you want to "turn over the generations". A 20% rate would mean a 100% turnover of your breeders every 5 years. A rate of 10% would require a decade to turn over the breeders 100%, which is close to the natural useful breeding life of a pigeon 10 years. So, a 20% rate imposes a rate of change much faster then what would normally occur. For a pigeon to remain beyond a five year period, would require that pigeon to be very special indeed. This turnover also keeps your breeding team young and strong. 

Speed of progress will depend in part on how many are produced and retained which can be called "exceptional", and how many "exceptional" specimens can be found and obtained which are superior to what you all ready own. If you produce a 100 YB's and at the end of the season if you have 2 which are really super duper, and if you can then also acquire 2 World Class Pigeons, you would then be in a position for example to replace 2 pairs. So if you had say 10-11 pairs of breeders then you now have to decide which 2 pairs will not be breeding in your loft going forward. Some years you may produce a larger crop of great YB's, other years there may be slim pickings. Same with your travels to find that undiscovered gem which will take you to that next level. Just remember, if you are doing pretty much what everyone else is doing, well then you shouldn't expect wildly different results. What the other guy will keep, you must move out cause it's just not good enough.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Extraordinary Selective Pressure = Evolutionary Change*

Of course as I share what other great fanciers have said before, in so many words in different ways. But it all comes down to simply this: * The amount and velocity of evolutionary change within a given colony, will be the direct result of the amount and type of selective pressure placed on the members of that colony. *

I would like to add, that my perspective is from that of a fancier who only participates in the YB aspect of racing. In many ways a fancier who has the luxury of time, can more thoroughly evaluate the racing abilities of his stock. When one is a YB specialist, only a single racing season is available to evaluate that entire generation which has been produced. If a young racer is ever going to have a future as a breeder, he must shine early and brightly. If one must wait a year or two for the bird to mature in order to put forth outstanding performances, then he or she will never see the inside of the breeding loft. Perhaps inside the loft of someone else, but not inside those special rooms where he or she was made. 

Among other things, the future "Champion" of mine, must be fast maturing. Non of that business like when I was a kid and owned pigeons descended down from pigeons which were imported by a guy named Charles Heitzman from the likes of Paul Sion of France or maybe it was from his son. http://showtimeloft.jimdo.com/articles/paul-sion-story/ Those pigeons were great 500 milers, but they required a couple years to mature. One was never going to make a name for themselves during YB's with the likes of birds like those. 

I chose to share the above additional thoughts, since there are different kinds of "Champions", and with those differences, comes different methods and selection criteria. If one flies YB's and OB's out to 600 miles or even further, then one would select perhaps differently, but trust me, the strongest lofts in any Combine or Federation, will be applying greater selective pressure on his colony then the typical fancier in his combine, trust me. I have visited the hollowed rooms of great local fanciers, where to earn a place on the breeding team, requires dozens of races and dozens of diplomas. Nothing average about any of racing careers of the breeders before they earned their way into these rooms. 

The overwhelming presence of such quality can be extremely intimidating. It can be unsettling, because how can one compete with collections which have taken decades to build ? I think the answer is one great breeder at a time. Breed one, buy one, trade for one, be gifted one, however it happens, one step, and one great breeder at a time is placed into your collection. 

At the start of every new breeding season, one must have at least a single new bird or pair, which has been added to the breeding colony, which contains the promise of producing something better then what has been produced before. If your colony is not moving forward and progressing in a positive fashion, then one is standing still or falling backwards, and is being left behind. What was "good" at some point in time, will no longer be "good" enough, at some point in the future. Evolutionary change is taking place in many thousands of pigeon lofts, but some at light speed when compared to others.

In a nutshell gentlemen, if one is to *create something extraordinary*, then one must *place extraordinary selective pressure* upon one's colony. Most will be incapable of preforming this task, which is why we are often amazed when one actually accomplishes the task, by doing what others have been unable or unwilling to do. *For the majority, will be very ordinary in their efforts,* and that is where they will for the most part, forever remain. Just plain ordinary.


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## hillfamilyloft

My theory is based a bit on using a bell curve for selection. The top 50% result wise are on the upper half of the curve the lower half below the peak in the curve. If you eliminate birds below somewhere on this curve, eventually the peak of the curve will move right or towards better results. Use the same % method of selection and the results move further to the better. Like a wave moving forward. This will make your breeding stock better. Whether you take just the cream, or the top half of the cup, or even all but the bottom 20% you are selecting out the bottom stock. This will in theory make your stock better. Assuming that what you replace the bottom 20% with is better. Simply, if the birds do not breed quality, you eliminate them.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> My theory is based a bit on using a bell curve for selection. The top 50% result wise are on the upper half of the curve the lower half below the peak in the curve. If you eliminate birds below somewhere on this curve, *eventually the peak of the curve will move right or towards better results*. Use the same % method of selection and the results move further to the better. Like a wave moving forward. This will make your breeding stock better. Whether you take just the cream, or the top half of the cup, or even all but the bottom 20% you are selecting out the bottom stock. This will in theory make your stock better. Assuming that what you replace the bottom 20% with is better. Simply, if the birds do not breed quality, you eliminate them.




I don't think you can really claim credit for bell curve selection. Those original ideas came from a monk by the name of Gregor Mendal see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_mendel

The frame work for selective breeding, and how change can be brought to a species by way of selection, were clearly laid out. Most fanciers, will be unable to bring about change in their colonies, beyond where they started. And the reason why I think this might be true, is if they are removing say the bottom 20% or selecting from top 1/2 or anything close to that amount of "selection" would bring about change so slowly, that it might take 50 generations to bring about even a modest movement.

In order to bring about the "fast" change, one must select from those at the very extreme edge of that bell curve. *Those rare individuals which are very exceptional, perhaps the best 1% or 2% may be required to move the performance curve in an amount of time, that won't require us to live to be 150 years old to build a winning genetic line.* Anything less selective then that can and will work, but it will require more time then the average fanciers life span. 

If there is a fancier out there, that is producing "Champion" quality pigeons out of turn, without applying "extreme" selective pressure, then it would appear to be an exception to the rule. As most great fanciers, that I have ever met, or read about, took great measures to select from only among the finest, the best. No such discussion or communication about selecting out only bottom 20% or top 50% etc. The great Masters always seem to have zeroed in on the top champions from which to build their families, medium or average, typical, was never a word they would use in building their foundations. And I suspect, that so few are able to do this, that is why a producer of champion pigeons is such a rare occurrence. We all know that one must breed from the best, in order to produce good, yet so few fanciers actually ever do it.

The "How To" we all pretty much understand how it has been done. Gregor Mendal and Charles Darwin see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution all laid the basic information that we need. All that is now required, is to actually select the best individuals for a breeding program. Why have pigeon fanciers made that concept so difficult to follow, I haven't a clue. But the facts would indicate that the average fancier, has done little, and will continue to do little to move the racing pigeon species forward. We must rely, on a few great Masters, who actually do preform selection on their colonies, and as a result, the vast majority of fanciers must look to these rare exceptional fanciers, to acquire birds from, in which the average fancier can then advance their colony.

The basic concept seems so frustratingly simple. Yet, how many Champions does the average fancier ever produce in their life times ? So why haven't you or I, or anyone else produced something very rare and special lately ? In theory, it could happen, but then, I am afraid, I may not recognize that "odd ball" which may show up someday, and the "freak" might just be mistaken for a "cull" or something else. And my goodness, would I really know what to do with one, if it some how managed to make it into my breeding loft ??? I am not convinced, I would be anymore qualified to ID that "special bird" even if I accidentally ended up with such a bird. I fear, that I may have to rely on plain old dumb luck, which is not very encouraging.


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## hillfamilyloft

you are very correct, I adopted others theories and used them towards my pigeon selection. Probably studying Mendel, statistics class, and economics class where these ideas entered my mind. Probably do not follow this theory with as much fidelity as I should. There are a few birds still around that should be given away. My goal is to have every birds in the loft that has either flown or bred a top 10 in the ABQ club or other reasonably competitive races. I am getting pretty close and contribute it to starting with good birds and selecting by only keeping what is producing and racing well, or the top birds in the loft.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> you are very correct, I adopted others theories and used them towards my pigeon selection. Probably studying Mendel, statistics class, and economics class where these ideas entered my mind. Probably do not follow this theory with as much fidelity as I should. There are a few birds still around that should be given away. My goal is to have every birds in the loft that has either flown or bred a top 10 in the ABQ club or other reasonably competitive races. I am getting pretty close and contribute it to starting with good birds and selecting by only keeping what is producing and racing well, or the top birds in the loft.



Yeah I think we have been exposed to some of the same influences. Now, as I sit in my loft I think to myself, OK Warren......so now what ? What can I do today, which could actually make a difference in my loft going forward ? Well, a couple of things cross my mind. 

#1 Go ahead and part with a few pairs of proven breeders in order to make room for potentially better from this year's team. Don't just talk the talk, walk the walk. I have some number of breeders like the pair which produced the 2010 Pigeon Talk Champion, which may be on their way to new homes. It is hard to let go of past, but must move forward with more recent racing Champs, and turn over the generations as I know I must, but I tend to procrastinate. Keeping "good" until they mature into old breeders and die of natural causes, is not moving the colony along towards the ideal prototype. 


#2 OK, now after what might it be ? 70's something tosses, I already know the top birds from this year's crop, why risk the loss of diploma winners for instance, on additional races. Retire those gems right now, the risk for additional diplomas is for what exactly ? As an example, how many diplomas must a promising looking breeder win, to be "good" enough ? As a YB specialist, I struggle with this. Have you ever held a pigeon in your hands, that sends a little tingling sensation up and down your leg, as you just know he or she will breed quality ? And then in your stupid greed for recognition or something, you send this bird that one race too far, in order to capture yet another victory, only to lose the bird ?  Perhaps the "smart" fancier, would pull a two diploma winning jewel of a hen now, and let her mature into her true value, and that is to pass those winning genes onto a number of winning offspring. Far more valuable then attempting to capture a "Champion Bird" title, only to damage her reproductive future or total loss. I said perhaps a "smart"..jury is really still out if that term would apply to me.

Those are two things I can do, which right, wrong or indifferent, will have an impact going forward. Going to make some fairly radical changes for 2013 breeding season. Going to be working with a fewer number of breeding cocks. And of those being retained, the gene pool is going to become a whole bunch closer. I don't have the time or disposition to debate wisdom of a closed breeding system, after about a decade of research, I have come to the conclusion that Ludo Claessen had it right in the first place, as I couldn't produce a hybrid any better then the originals. This year, as in year's past, despite "expert" opinion, that inbred pigeons can not win races, my experience is that is all so much hogwash. Wasted years I am afraid, concerned about so called inbreeding depression. And allocated valuable space to develop additional separate family lines. With the thinking that crossing these lines was thus the answer. After a decade...I conclude that idea is not for me. Maybe in some loft somewhere, someone has managed to find enough world class breeders to have numerous lines. A Mike Ganus kind of fancier comes to mind. 

Me, I am lucky to have a few really "good" pigeons, and they share some of same ancestors. I am moving back towards the basics, of breeding around those few actual good pigeons I have. I figure with switching eggs and hens, I can get more YB's in 2013 from those really special birds, which seem to produce my best birds. I know I can't be the only one in the pigeon world where just a few pigeons have made our whole season in some years. And more often then not, we are not really surprised when certain breeders do this more regularly. So why not switch eggs and hens and increase the number of offspring from those really birds ?

For me, that means breeding around my Ludo originals and their offspring, and grand children which won One Loft events or Champion bird awards etc. As much as I hate to say it, as many fancier's pigeons have influenced the genetics of our lofts, I am going to move towards "pure bred" Ludo's instead of using them to move the Smith Family Lines forward, the goal is to produce more pigeons like the originals I obtained from Ludo and offspring from these birds. There is just no denying the genetic superiority. I don't have to try to improve them, I simply have to try to maintain that quality for some period of time. So going to focus on one great genetic line rather then attempt several good ones. The research was not wasted time, just think I was misguided when advised to "cross" everything to form 'new" family of my own creation. 

Now going to reverse course 360 degrees, this year's great crop of YB's has revealed to me after some 70 something training tosses and races, where that vein of racing performance lies. For me, this last year or two has been an epiphany of sorts. It's like wow...it was there the whole time, how did I take my eye off the idea outcome ?


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## Lovelace

Warren, that's some good reading, as of the last couple years for me I have a pair that are cousin to cousin mating that produce my best birds, there offspring are betting every bird in my loft. and there offspring are passing on the winning traits, I been leaning more to "cousin to cousin" mating "uncle to niece" "ant to nephew" "grandchild to grandparent" so on. so for it been working. But in my opeion you have to have birds that will pass on the treats.


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## First To Hatch

Warren you asked yourself "why keep flying a bird that has won two diplomas already? shouldn't I just stock it" I think that can be answered with what goals you have in mind. I know for myself it is that I want to create a strain that I can ship every week and come in good time. That of course would call for birds that can mature quicker and have gone through a full molt so having to hold them back won't be to much of an issue. Just thought I'd throw that idea on you in case you haven't thought of it already.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> Warren you asked yourself "why keep flying a bird that has won two diplomas already? shouldn't I just stock it" I think that can be answered with what goals you have in mind. I know for myself *it is that I want to create a strain that I can ship every week and come in good time.* That of course would call for birds that can mature quicker and have gone through a full molt so having to hold them back won't be to much of an issue. Just thought I'd throw that idea on you in case you haven't thought of it already.


 I just pulled two out of the air, because I was thinking of some in the loft that have won two diplomas, but there are still 5 races left. So, what are you saying, the bird could have won five diplomas or six, does not matter, send him or her to all 9 races ? I think I remember losing a three diploma winner trying to get that fourth race diploma thing. Looking back I remembered thinking...gee how smart was that ? Our local racing involves a three bird clocking limit, so send the bird and get it back in decent time, and most likely you wouldn't even get a piece of paper. 

I am thinking a wise man with a very small and rare colony of pigeons, should have some safe guards in place to insure an adequate number of breeding specimens. I mean when you are racing specimens that may be valued at many hundreds or thousands of dollars, what is the point of a local race where one can only win diploma's printed out on the club's printer ? How many One Loft entry fees can I pay with those, or how many bags of feed can I have delivered, and can I pay the help with diploma's ? The answer is no. One has to manage the resources he has, and if one wants to breed some Champions, then it helps to have a few in your breeding loft. My goal is to win significant One Loft events against major competitors. Local racing is simply to assist me in achieving those goals. It is not to come at the expense of the National events. I don't know what I am going to do, I may just pull the one I have been looking at, and thinking...boy, sure would like to pair her to my 2008 Champion Bird.....but perhaps I will send her to more events. If I don't ship her no more, but instead breed from her in next few months, if she produces, I am certain I will never regret not going for additional pieces of paper. If on the other hand I lose her, I am going to blame you !!


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## First To Hatch

Well,

I said it depends on what goals you have in mind. I want Hall of Fame pigeons which asks for birds that fly a numerous amount of races and do well to qualify. If I was just doing One Loft Events I'd prolly only have like 5 pairs, that's 20 young birds to send to one loft races or club auctions.


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## hillfamilyloft

When you mentioned your #2 strategy, I thought of a bird that I raised and eased by another fancier that won as a young birds from 200miles, as a yearling from 250miles, and also bred a winner from 250miles as a yearling that same year. Two wins and a breeder of a winner. I asked him if I could have the bird back the next year to bring back to breed in. When he went to look for him, he was no where to be found. Lost in training for the next seasons old birds. Really! I snatched a daughter of his and sibling of the 250 winner, because the winner died in the flying loft. The daughter I snatched has bred some top 10% birds in the last few years. 
Now, my thoughts are that if a bird wins a race or breeds a winner, don't you want him to stay in the loft and create more offspring? Especially if he was your best young bird that year. And also one of your best old birds in the spring. Also he was paired with the second best young bird in the loft also not of your loft. First and Second best young birds, not form your loft, that bred a winner, not kept together to mover your loft foreword. Also the bird lost was off my Ed and Charlotte, which bred first place birds in the club. Three of their sons have also bred winners. And he did not even keep track of where he was. This is in my opinion about as anti-productive as one can be. The fancier won two races that yb and old birds season. Both were a direct result of one bird. ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> When you mentioned your #2 strategy, I thought of a bird that I raised and eased by another fancier that won as a young birds from 200miles, as a yearling from 250miles, and also bred a winner from 250miles as a yearling that same year. Two wins and a breeder of a winner. I asked him if I could have the bird back the next year to bring back to breed in. When he went to look for him, he was no where to be found. Lost in training for the next seasons old birds. Really! I snatched a daughter of his and sibling of the 250 winner, because the winner died in the flying loft. The daughter I snatched has bred some top 10% birds in the last few years.
> Now, my thoughts are that if a bird wins a race or breeds a winner, don't you want him to stay in the loft and create more offspring? Especially if he was your best young bird that year. And also one of your best old birds in the spring. Also he was paired with the second best young bird in the loft also not of your loft. First and Second best young birds, not form your loft, that bred a winner, not kept together to mover your loft foreword. Also the bird lost was off my Ed and Charlotte, which bred first place birds in the club. Three of their sons have also bred winners. And he did not even keep track of where he was. This is in my opinion about as anti-productive as one can be. The fancier won two races that yb and old birds season. Both were a direct result of one bird. ?


 Yep, exactly. Somewhere along the way, can't be so overwhelmed to win additional pieces of paper, that we forget what the object of the game is.


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## hillfamilyloft

So I think that it is wise to set criteria on when it is time to stock a bird. Base it on whatever criteria one thinks fit, try the strategy, test it, and if it works stand by it. So simple, but many like the fancier that flew my bird, don't deem important. Warren, I think you are spot on with both points 1 and 2. Probably why you win your unfair share of races.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> Well,
> 
> I said it depends on what goals you have in mind. I want Hall of Fame pigeons which asks for birds that fly a numerous amount of races and do well to qualify. If I was just doing One Loft Events I'd prolly only have like 5 pairs, that's 20 young birds to send to one loft races or club auctions.


 What are the requirements for a YB to win Hall of Fame ? Exactly how many races must be flown ? If you were flying local races as well, would you need more then a dozen ? I work with about 8 pair out of my back yard, and I sent out 10 One Loft Entries, and I started the 1st race with 15 birds. Now here I am after four races with only 8 remaining birds. How many more races should I send them to ? There are five races left, and I have 23 fanciers who are interested in any "spare" birds. What should I do ?


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## First To Hatch

Rules for IF http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/skytalk_2010/HOF_Rules.pdf

Rules for AU http://www.pigeon.org/HOFGuidelines.htm

In your case I'd stop racing. Like I keep saying it all depends on the individuals goals.


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## Revolution Lofts

Warren I like the way you think when it comes down to breeding and racing. As a young fancier and perhaps one of the youngest in the province of British Columbia, 2013 will be the first year I actually race. Half of my yb team in 2012 just flew off one day and was never seen again (this occurred while loft flying, and all birds were trained and had been tossed a few times, overcrowding was also not a factor). 

I plan to breed from 10 pairs. 7 of the pairs were late breds from a local guy that did very well in 2011. He won 8 of the 18 races in a combine that has approximately 50 lofts, so as far as acquiring young/good stock goes, I think I did a good job in that. 2 of the pairs are from another local fellow that dominates the young bird races, and the last pair was gifted to me from an older fellow which played a significant factor as being the "original or foundation" birds in a few local lofts.

I plan to breed 60 yb's in 2013 (3 rounds of babies from each pair) and I'll probably be gifted 20-30 yb's from the club members but these 20-30 will only help to fill in the depleted ranks. My main goal is to test what I have in my breeders, and out of the 10 pairs I have, only 7 will remain for the 2014 season. I plan to find some local guys that are willing to give me proven racers or breeders to make up for the 3 pairs I'll get rid off.

That's the issue with the breeders I have right now, most of them are not tested. I can just hope I have something good in them because they came from a respected guy who wins consistently, and most of his birds he breeders from are Belgium national winners imports and GFL birds. So until I have tested their YB's, I won't know for sure if any of them are any good. They feel great in the hand and they come from proven breeders and proven racers, so I'm hoping for the best!

Apart from:

- breeding from quality birds
- saving the good young birds/OB's to breed from
- quality over quantity (not become a "mob" flyer)

Do you have anymore tips?


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## hillfamilyloft

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> Warren I like the way you think when it comes down to breeding and racing. As a young fancier and perhaps one of the youngest in the province of British Columbia, 2013 will be the first year I actually race. Half of my yb team in 2012 just flew off one day and was never seen again (this occurred while loft flying, and all birds were trained and had been tossed a few times, overcrowding was also not a factor).
> 
> I plan to breed from 10 pairs. 7 of the pairs were late breds from a local guy that did very well in 2011. He won 8 of the 18 races in a combine that has approximately 50 lofts, so as far as acquiring young/good stock goes, I think I did a good job in that. 2 of the pairs are from another local fellow that dominates the young bird races, and the last pair was gifted to me from an older fellow which played a significant factor as being the "original or foundation" birds in a few local lofts.
> 
> I plan to breed 60 yb's in 2013 (3 rounds of babies from each pair) and I'll probably be gifted 20-30 yb's from the club members but these 20-30 will only help to fill in the depleted ranks. My main goal is to test what I have in my breeders, and out of the 10 pairs I have, only 7 will remain for the 2014 season. I plan to find some local guys that are willing to give me proven racers or breeders to make up for the 3 pairs I'll get rid off.
> 
> That's the issue with the breeders I have right now, most of them are not tested. I can just hope I have something good in them because they came from a respected guy who wins consistently, and most of his birds he breeders from are Belgium national winners imports and GFL birds. So until I have tested their YB's, I won't know for sure if any of them are any good. They feel great in the hand and they come from proven breeders and proven racers, so I'm hoping for the best!
> 
> Apart from:
> 
> - breeding from quality birds
> - saving the good young birds/OB's to breed from
> - quality over quantity (not become a "mob" flyer)
> 
> Do you have anymore tips?


I am not Warren, but it sounds like you are further along than many old timers in your thinking. One thing, I would keep in mind, listen to me or not, is do not let the pedigrees of those birds drive your decisions. Results are they key. An example would be my grandson of Ikon, my son from Motown Missile, and my daughter of a National Belgium winner. I am not sure those are the best breeders in my loft, but they surely have the best pedigrees. In other words if you have any of those birds that do not produce, only look at what they produce not what they are supposed to produce on paper. I think too many guys that buy a 3k bird breed it whether its any good or not. Money drive the decision, not results. My two best cocks are a Kalk bird and a Vic Miller bird. Both gift birds. Don't be fooled by those "foundation quality" pedigrees with no results. I judge a pedigree that runs out of space for the wins, top 10s and top 10% results. Not the scribbles telling me about a "one pin tail". Pass off those fluffy pedigreed birds that do not produce, to someone else that races with paper instead of results.


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## hillfamilyloft

Another thing you might think of when counting birds before they hatch is that not all eggs will hatch or be fertile. Especially those who live in cold climates. I would shoot for about 80% hatch rate. This might warrant you a few more pair to get your numbers. I like you also listen to Warren and his ideas. I do not always agree, but most of the time find value in them. Emulating those who are successful is also good advice. You most often or not find a correlation between the good breeders and the good races. Good birds and good methods. Listen to winners.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> Rules for IF http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/skytalk_2010/HOF_Rules.pdf
> 
> Rules for AU http://www.pigeon.org/HOFGuidelines.htm
> 
> In your case I'd stop racing. Like I keep saying it all depends on the individuals goals.


 The goal is stated as the subject of the thread, "How to Breed Champion Racing Pigeons". If one is an OB flier, then certainly having your OB's be able to fly 8 races in over a two year period, while being in the top 10%, is certainly a criteria one can use when measuring performance. But, if one is a YB specialist, the YB must demonstrate it's superiority very quickly. It doesn't get the luxury of picking a bunch of races over a number of seasons, and trying to end up in the top 10%. That is almost useless for a YB Champion, which must be "in the money" over a series of races. For most YB One Loft events, being in the "top 10%" at most events, is a useless exercise. Typically one must fall within the first ten clocking positions to win any kind of award. "Top 10%" might mean something at the local club or combine, but in One Loft or Auction events...most people focus on 1st, 2nd and 3rd ! If one wanted to apply a measuring stick to YB racing, then perhaps "Champion Bird" would be more appropriate then Hall of Fame. Even then, only one bird in a Combine can actually win a "Champion Bird" award. Whereas any number of OB's in any given season could qualify for "Hall of Fame" so not exactly equal awards. 

The point I was attempting to make, is that in one's rush to win these club or combine awards, don't forget that at the end of the season, you still have to have some number of birds left, in which to carry the colony forward to the next generation. 

IMHO, If one does not end up with an exceptional hen or two, in which to carry forward the genetic line, then what will have been accomplished except for acquiring a few additional club diplomas ? The birds must be tested yes, but you also want the maximum number of good performances. And for any given bird, any good win is certainly a plus. If you end up with an exceptional bird which wins some 1st or 2nd place wins rather quickly, I say don't get too greedy. For instance if you win a couple 1st place wins at a One Loft event, perhaps even the average speed, I would not tempt fate with such a bird, and sent it to the 400 Mile event, no in such a case, I would quit while I was ahead, and say send me that Big Winner Home !! But, hey...that is me. 

If in a desire to produce some new strain of "Super Champions" where as one sends every bird to every race, and at the end of the season they have returned very average performances because their team was run down so hard that they didn't have time to recoup, and as a result, perhaps some of the best birds were actually lost, then I ask, what did that profit the fancier ? Just saying.......one shouldn't have to send a YB to 8 or 9 different events to figure out if the bird can race or not. If one sends a bird to three different races, and the bird wins three races, I don't need to send the bird out no more, I already know it has "the stuff".


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## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> What are the requirements for a YB to win Hall of Fame ? Exactly how many races must be flown ? If you were flying local races as well, would you need more then a dozen ? I work with about 8 pair out of my back yard, and I sent out 10 One Loft Entries, and I started the 1st race with 15 birds. Now here I am after four races with only 8 remaining birds. How many more races should I send them to ? There are five races left, and I have 23 fanciers who are interested in any "spare" birds. What should I do ?


Well.....oh ok, then there are the fifty some pairs in that 14 x 55 building with 12 sections, but I wasn't counting them, cause I was referring to my very "special" birds that are involved with my 2013 special programs.


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## Xueoo

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> For me, that means breeding around my Ludo originals and their offspring, and grand children which won One Loft events or Champion bird awards etc. As much as I hate to say it, as many fancier's pigeons have influenced the genetics of our lofts, I am going to move towards "pure bred" Ludo's instead of using them to move the Smith Family Lines forward, the goal is to produce more pigeons like the originals I obtained from Ludo and offspring from these birds. There is just no denying the genetic superiority. I don't have to try to improve them, I simply have to try to maintain that quality for some period of time. So going to focus on one great genetic line rather then attempt several good ones. The research was not wasted time, just think I was misguided when advised to "cross" everything to form 'new" family of my own creation.


This quote right here is the all truth about being a "breeder". 

There is a whole other story behind Warren's quoted paragraph above, that one needs to decifer to get to the truth about breeding.


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## soundmajorr

I understand this thread it about breeding the best world class champion racing pigeons, but at what point is it not about breeding and having the best birds, and more about training and feeding the best way for the best results. For instance the Pigeon supplier everyone in my club goes to also races birds. Has been doing so for many years. But even he visits lofts in Europe and Belgium all the time. Not only to get the best birds that no one else has, but to pick up more information on how they are now feeding their young birds and training them. 
After all I can have the best birds from everyone on this site but not caring for them correctly health wise, not training them enough and or training them too much, and not feeding them correctly. 
An example of what i mean is this. Warren says he is going to try to get rid of his top pairs to bring in New Birds to try and advance his birds and get better results. lets say he has been breeding this pair for 10 years, but in those 10 years he has not changed his feeding style for his racers and has not changed his training regime. How can we pin point that it is the birds and needing better quality is the problem, and not include the factors of feeding and training? Just thought i would throw this suggestion out there.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

soundmajorr said:


> I understand this thread it about breeding the best world class champion racing pigeons,* but at what point is it not about breeding and having the best birds, and more about training and feeding the best way for the best results*. For instance the Pigeon supplier everyone in my club goes to also races birds. Has been doing so for many years. But even he visits lofts in Europe and Belgium all the time. Not only to get the best birds that no one else has, but to pick up more information on how they are now feeding their young birds and training them.
> After all I can have the best birds from everyone on this site but not caring for them correctly health wise, not training them enough and or training them too much, and not feeding them correctly.
> An example of what i mean is this. Warren says he is going to try to get rid of his top pairs to bring in New Birds to try and advance his birds and get better results. lets say he has been breeding this pair for 10 years, but in those 10 years he has not changed his feeding style for his racers and has not changed his training regime. How can we pin point that it is the birds and needing better quality is the problem, and not include the factors of feeding and training? Just thought i would throw this suggestion out there.


 First of all, let me back up for a moment, just in case anyone reading the various posts in this thread, gets the impression that I am attempting to tell anyone, what one must do, in order to breed Champion pigeons. 

I am on the same frustrating course in life, as are many other fanciers. And that is to produce better then what we have ever produced before. I put out a few ideas, not to try to demonstrate some kind of knowledge, but to invite feedback as to how things might be done a bit differently in order to bring about better results. 

In my mind, much of my effort this past decade, in many ways has resulted in failure. I say this because I have not been able to significantly increase the number of "exceptional" birds, that my breeders produce. The progress has been so painfully slow, that I am afraid such progress must be measured in decades, and not year to year. 

You mention improvements in management, training, housing, etc. All of these will over time, lend itself to improvements in racing. But, that of course does nothing to actually increase the quality of the breeding. The One Loft event, does provide the opportunity to test the best breeding, as everyone is provided the same management, feed, training etc. So even if improvements in management etc is made, the better quality bird, still has an opportunity to shine through, even if the birds are being better managed, trained, or fed. 

You are correct, in that local racing is as much, if not more a contest of loft construction, loft location, feeding, training, and general management etc. Everyone is already pretty much aware, that even a very typical aveage pigeon, can achieve winning results, by simply being in the combine's #1 loft and #1 handler, on a race day where the wind favors this particular good fancier. So in that regard, you are absolutely correct. And I suspect that most improvement that a fancier makes the first ten or so years he is racing, will in fact come from improvments in management. Heck, maybe even for the rest of his career, that is typically where much of the improvement will come from. 

Which is why, I looked to the One Loft events, as a way to actually measure the quality and consistancy of what a particular breeding program is actually producing. Because of exactly the reasons stated, like what kind of satisfaction can a fancier gain from his hobby, if his racing results are due in large part, because his home and thus loft, just happen to be in a better position on the course then most ? I mean what satisfaction can a fancier actually get from winning, simply because his loft is better designed ? Or he is retired, so thus able to train more. I mean the list can be quite long, when one considers all the factors that could be atributed to a local "win". Could have very little to do with a better constructed athlete, and everything to do with the loft and enviroment, management, etc.

Which is why when one claims his birds are so great because of this combine win and this club result etc. etc. One should look beyond just this. Have seen such local "champion" stories, where once the guy moves to a new location, perhaps with a new loft, or simply the old loft set up in the new location, and what do you suspect happened ? Well...the "winning" stopped !  Which then begs the question in these circumstances, gee how really "good" were his birds ? And how much was it his loft location ? Which is why one must consider such things when attempting to evaluate the value or quality of a bird from such a loft, as neither the loft nor the fancier will come with such a bird, if you should obtain such a "winning" bird. The "wise" fancier will thus have his birds winning in a number of combines, then and only then, if he does not send to One Loft events, can one be sure he is actually producing some quality birds, and is just not a good fancier with a good loft location.


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## soundmajorr

Hello Warren, I was just playing devils advocate. I didnt take it as you were telling me or anyone else what to do. you bring up great points in all your post , including your last one. I agree with you stating how quality pigeons will show in one loft events, which is why this is my first year in pigeons i am working to try and obtain the best i can for a price within my budget. the main reason i posted my last post was this. this being my first year im trying to do everything i can to improve. well i have purchased the birds i am going to bread from, now comes the loft management,handling, feed,training and so on. i would love to have immediate results , but being my first year this is a trial and error thing. i have to do it inorder to learn what works and what doesnt, or to see if my birds are of good quality or not.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

soundmajorr said:


> Hello Warren, I was just playing devils advocate. I didnt take it as you were telling me or anyone else what to do. you bring up great points in all your post , including your last one. I agree with you stating how quality pigeons will show in one loft events, which is why this is my first year in pigeons i am working to try and obtain the best i can for a price within my budget. the main reason i posted my last post was this. this being my first year im trying to do everything i can to improve. well i have purchased the birds i am going to bread from, now comes the loft management,handling, feed,training and so on. i would love to have immediate results , but being my first year this is a trial and error thing. i have to do it inorder to learn what works and what doesnt, or to see if my birds are of good quality or not.


 Well good luck on this adventure ! 

You might actually be better off longer term, if you must struggle a bit the first year. I see that as preferable to one who ends up with "begginers" luck....winning some kind of events out of turn. The new guy then thinks it is soo easy, only to fall mostly down over the following years and then getting more discouraged as years go on. I say this only because it might be better to enjoy some progress over the years. 

At any rate, good luck, and enjoy the ride regardless of the results. The object after all, is to enjoy yourself and have some fun !!


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## soundmajorr

thanks i appreciate it warren. picking brains from this website and with my fathers knowledge in pigeons, im hoping this correlates to good if not great results lol.


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## ejb3810

It is a true test to fly birds in a one loft race. I have entered birds in several, and I have been the loft manager for one.
It is also difficult to fly birds in a club that is spread 243 mi E to W and 156 mi N to S.
Which would be a better test of the birds? Of course the club situation is further complicated by management variance, wind direction & etc.
But it makes me ponder the question.


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## jtronics

Silvio Mattacchione & Co. said:


> You see, the real secret (if we can call it that) for producing exceptional racers is to cross inbred lines! This means that you must locate exceptional local pigeons that have been inbred and introduce to these lines foreign strains that have also been inbred. The result just might be an explosion of new vitality. What I mean is that when two (or more) inbred lines of pigeons (or livestock of any kind) are crossed and the hens (females) are crossed back to either side, we should immediately see very big improvements in everything from fertility to livability. In our case we are interested in racing performance, and yes, this 25%–75% cross will give us just that.
> All of the advances made in breeding commercial animals over the past 50 years have been based on this one principle. This principle is referred to as heterosis—often called the magic bullet! Once you have identified your prepotent sire and have proceeded to develop a truly inbred line of pigeons, then what? Well, what we seek is always to improve! We wish to objectively improve our stock while maintaining longevity.


Has anyone try this type of breeding? or its just a myth? Producing exeptional bird.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Originally Posted by Silvio Mattacchione & Co.
You see, the real secret (if we can call it that) for producing exceptional racers is to cross inbred lines! This means that you must locate exceptional local pigeons that have been inbred and introduce to these lines foreign strains that have also been inbred. The result just might be an explosion of new vitality. What I mean is that when two (or more) inbred lines of pigeons (or livestock of any kind) are crossed and the hens (females) are crossed back to either side, we should immediately see very big improvements in everything from fertility to livability. In our case we are interested in racing performance, and yes, this 25%–75% cross will give us just that.
All of the advances made in breeding commercial animals over the past 50 years have been based on this one principle. This principle is referred to as heterosis—often called the magic bullet! Once you have identified your prepotent sire and have proceeded to develop a truly inbred line of pigeons, then what? Well, what we seek is always to improve! We wish to objectively improve our stock while maintaining longevity.





jtronics said:


> Has anyone try this type of breeding? or its just a myth? Producing exeptional bird.


 

Yes, many people have, it is a well known fact known throughout the animal breeding world. The question becomes, at least in my mind, does one then attempt to maintain some number of various lines for the purposes of crossing lines ? Or does one focus on one strain, one family line, and when a very *exceptional* is found, which is better then what you already own, you acquire this bird and cross that bird with one of your breeding champs, race the results. If an exceptional racer is produced, that bird then could be crossed back into the your family line so as to prevent inbreeding depression. So, when something superior is located, you acquire it, always seeking better, always moving the family line forward. There is inbreeding going on all the time, but also when extremely exceptional birds are located, if when crossed to the family line, a superior racer is produced as a result, then this bird's genes are added to the family line. Thus, preventing the line from becoming too inbred, while adding exceptional individuals to the breeding colony, that when crossed with family members produces something truly extraordinary. 

As opposed to trying to line breed stationery lines which ten generations from now, in theory will be pretty much the same, no improvement...but maintained only for the purposes for crossing. It may be a fine line, but I say there is a difference.

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/breeding.htm

Rule 8: Cross inbred lines!

Once you have identified your prepotent sire, as defined above, and have proceeded to develop a truly inbred line of pigeons, then what? Well, what we seek is always to improve! We wish to objectively improve our stock while maintaining longevity. Always look, never be content! Always seek to modify and manipulate Nature's odds in your favour.

You must develop a rapport or friendship with other like-minded and multi-talented pigeon enthusiasts who have also produced inbred lines. Cooperate with each other to further develop each other's families. *What I mean is that when two or more inbred lines of pigeons, or livestock of any kind, are crossed, and we then breed the crossbred females back to either side, we should immediately see very big improvements in everything from fertility to livability.*

All of the advances made in breeding commercial animals over the past fifty years have been based on this one principle. This principle is referred to as heterosis. So what am I saying? Well, Horst Hackemer, remember that red inbred Mueleman hen, sister to the "Patriot", and that blue Hofkens hen-both wonderful pigeons with great flesh. We should breed those hens to my inbred Spanjaards and share the progeny! Cooperate and we both win! Shall I call you or will you fax me?


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## ejb3810

The concept of crossing inbred lines of pigeons is commonly used by the most successful and renowned European pigeon fanciers I believe. When ever you read an article on these individuals you see a line which states that they are constantly looking for that exceptional bird to try with their existing colony. The crosses do not always produce the desired result, and if not they quickly go on to something else.


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## jtronics

ejb3810 said:


> The concept of *crossing inbred lines of pigeons is commonly used by the most successful and renowned European pigeon fanciers* I believe. When ever you read an article on these individuals you see a line which states that they are constantly looking for that exceptional bird to try with their existing colony. The crosses do not always produce the desired result, and if not they quickly go on to something else.


i think Cross Inbreed is the *nearest* way to Breed World Class racing Pigeons.. it also stated in diff fancier article..

why does those renowned fancier need other strain to cross to their strain? 

if you hav one exceptional bird and you inbreed the outcome is the same as the foundation.. Exceptional bird need other strain to produce exceptional world class bird.. 

Some will says they do the same thing.. the question is?* is that the exceptional bird you own*?

If its not the cross inbreed? how many type of breeding do pigeons hav? (inbreeding, line breed, crossbreed)

line breed probably not because it concentrates the genes of a particular individual in the gene pool from which you are breeding same as inbreeding
crossbreeding you will got 50/50 (best x best not hundred percent offsfring are best) 

i am not as experience as you guys im just sharing what iv read in some articles and others.. this topic will lead us (new fancier) for better and not repeatedly doing some false breeding preparation..


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## SmithFamilyLoft

jtronics said:


> i think Cross Inbreed is the *nearest* way to Breed World Class racing Pigeons.. it also stated in diff fancier article..
> 
> why does those renowned fancier need other strain to cross to their strain?
> 
> if you hav one exceptional bird and you inbreed the outcome is the same as the foundation.. Exceptional bird need other strain to produce exceptional world class bird..
> 
> Some will says they do the same thing.. the question is?* is that the exceptional bird you own*?
> 
> If its not the cross inbreed? how many type of breeding do pigeons hav? (inbreeding, line breed, crossbreed)
> 
> line breed probably not because it concentrates the genes of a particular individual in the gene pool from which you are breeding same as inbreeding
> crossbreeding you will got 50/50
> 
> i am not as experience as you guys im just sharing what iv read in some articles and others.. this topic will lead us (new fancier) for better and not repeatedly doing some false breeding preparation..


You make valid good point. Stated in a slightly different way.

Inbreeding = produce more of same

Which is why when inbreeding only use exceptional specimens, no point inbreeding average pigeons, you just get more average. 

When great racer and breeding specimen of inbred family line is X with exceptional bird from unique inbreed line = hybrid vigor is produced, vitality and possibility of new and exciting developments = in theory possible to produce better racing Champion then either parent ! This is where legends can be made. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now having said all that. Like any other tool, that we fanciers have in our tool boxes. There is nothing particularly magic about tools such as out crossing, inbreeding, line breeding and etc. If you have some number of average pigeons, these tools in and of themselves, will not cause your very typical pigeons to start producing something better then typical. 

These tools and some exceptional pigeons, and you can take your colony to the next level. The inbreeding sets the trait into the family line, the out cross provides the genetic variability, and hybrid vigor which can be invaluable when vitality is needed for exceptional physical feats. And like any other tool, it sometimes is misused and over used, and misstated or over rated.

I digress with a side note. Recently a pigeon web site had some ads on their site which I clicked on. The ad was something like "How to Breed Champion Racing Pigeons", and how one can make "hundreds" of dollars selling breeding stock, and winning big money races ! Here we are debating these issues, and here all the "secrets" are all there for only $27 !!! 

That got me to thinking, I can't afford to give up my "secrets" for $27 as that wouldn't cover my bar tab at lunch. But, perhaps I would offer a weekend seminar and cocktail reception. Perhaps a tour of some local breeding facilities, where for perhaps the first time in one's life, you can actually see how it is done. Might be able to put together some kind of package deal to include rooms and a few meals etc. Maybe we can get it down to $995, and if one race's professionally, then it would be a tax deductible business expense. Don't know how many takers there might be, I might have to throw in my personally guided tour of the battlefield at Gettysburg, Pa. or a tour of the Harley Motorcycle plant, or the YORK barbell company !


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## Xueoo

ejb3810 said:


> *The concept of crossing inbred lines of pigeons is commonly used by the most successful and renowned European pigeon fanciers I believe*. When ever you read an article on these individuals you see a line which states that they are constantly looking for that exceptional bird to try with *their existing colony*. The crosses do not always produce the desired result, and if not they quickly go on to something else.


"Existing colony" does not refer to inbred birds specifically. Most breeders in the Netherlands and Belgium don't inbreed.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Xueoo said:


> "Existing colony" does not refer to inbred birds specifically. *Most breeders in the Netherlands and Belgium don't inbreed*.


 Come on now, is that really true ? Do the majority of those lofts really have colonies of unrelated birds ? I am sorry, I just do not believe that. They may not practice it in the manner that a typical American loft might, because Americans may in fact be inbreeding when there is no call for it, but that is another discussion. 

I can say for a fact, that the great fancier Ludo Claessen did indeed practice inbreeding, as his colony was a closely related family which some would call a "strain". Some of his winning racers were imported into the USA to my loft, where they were bred to pigeons descended from Claessen champions which Mike Ganus and Ed Minnvile had imported into the USA.

Starting in 2013, I am moving away from the model I have employed since 2002. I was moving in the direction of maintaining several different genetic lines and crossing for racers, such as our 2007 350 mile 1st Place Flamingo International Challenge winner. It was hard to argue with such success, as dozens of good winners were produced using these methods, including the Pigeon Talk 2010 Classic 1st Place winner. 

A member here on Pigeon Talk, inadvertently assisted me in making a revolutionary, perhaps just plain radical decision. For me, it was like an Epiphany, where it became crystal clear what direction I must take to go forward, and in my case it was to go back to the future. 

I don't know why exactly I started with this idea of starting from the ground up, and building a whole new genetic line by blending the best obtainable, based on performance standards. I felt like I was working on 8 different projects and quite frankly based on the time which had elapsed, I began to calculate I would run out of time, before I achieved my goals. Just wouldn't have enough decades to complete the job. 

So this week, some of my breeding Champions were removed from the Smith Family Loft's, and more will follow in the days and weeks ahead. Those earlier breeding champs represent what I now see as genetic diversions. This new found best friend, with his interest in improving his breeding stock, caused me take a real long hard look at what I was actually doing to *Breed World Class Champion Pigeons *, I soon discovered, upon close personal self analysis, that I was talking the talk, but not walking the walk. 

I am afraid, that somewhere along the line, my "ego" got in the way of progress, as I had visions of gingerbread houses or something in my head, where the "Smith" would represent the best from various genetic lines and blending them to create the "Smith" strain. I confess for all here to read, I don't have the facilities, nor the projected life span, to tie all these ends together into a coherent package, so I am no longer going to waste valuable time or resources in order to reinvent the wheel. 

2013 will mark a new beginning, in that I will now focus my personal attentions on nothing other then developing the Ludo Claessen pigeons that I have been so privileged to have owned. Last year and this year has shown me that nothing produced up to this point, regardless of the numbers of wins, has been any more magnificent then my "pure" Claessen pigeons. Because of the very small number of original Ludo Claessen pigeons in North America, and the small numbers of "Pure" (I know it is not a perfect term) 2nd and 3rd generation Ludo Claessen pigeons available anywhere in the world, the timing of these directional changes is critical. 

The death of "First Lady" inbred daughter of the President, dam of a number of One Loft cash winners and grand mother to dozens of various diploma winners, brought home the fact, that the loss of a pre-potent breeder can happen at any time, and are extremely hard to replace. Carelessness on my part, and the seed stock for all of North America could be gone forever. 

Inbreeding for me is not a tool, it is the reality of a small gene pool. A closely bred family of exceptional pigeons, was the model that Ludo Claessen employed. Why I thought I could or should start crossing these birds with various lines instead of focusing on simply producing more of the same for some period of time, is a question I am not able to answer. 

My model going forward is to manage the colony as if it were a single entity. There will be no various and different lines maintained in order to cross, other then separate lines or branches within the same Ludo Claessen family tree. 

For those not familiar with Ludo's work, please note some of the lines in this article..."The Taste of the Inbred" : http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoHistory1.htm

And in this section notice how he brought in very exceptional birds to cross into the colony like "Klak" 

And part two : http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoHistory1.htm

When one studies the various family trees which were published, and on his methods, one finds he rarely kept more then a few dozen pigeons over the winter. And he was extreme in his methods. 

Own some of his birds, and thirty + years of work have already been done for you in terms of setting those important winning traits into your colony. Taking up breeding boxes in order to *maintain different l*ines, just to be able to produce bunches of hybrids on demand, has now become in my mind, wasted opportunity. So, I told a very long story in order to share that I may reduce as much as half my stock or more, in order to focus on my best line, and removing all of the others to affiliate lofts. In other words I am doubling and tripling down on my foundation bets.


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## jtronics

Xueoo said:


> "Existing colony" does not refer to inbred birds specifically. Most breeders in the Netherlands and Belgium don't inbreed.


Janssen Brothers do linebreed and inbreed. they from Belgium..

The breeding methods of Janssen brothers (partial):

Methods:
Two full/half brothers. one mated to the other's daughter
Two full/half brothers. one's son mated to the other's daughter
Two full sisters, or half sisters bred from the same father. one mated to the other's son
brother and sister mating, both bred from same father but different mothers.


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## ejb3810

Warren, to my way of thinking, You are right on target! I believe that most, if not all, of the renowned fanciers (named Strain makers) that have consistently produced winner after winner, champion after champion and exceptional producing colonies have done so with inbred genetics. They may not all have expressly promoted that as their breeding philosophy, but they in fact employed the concept. Some of these people were not especially keen to share all of their knowledge.
In animal husbandry the key to success is the concentration of genes that result in fixing desired traits. In pigeons we primarily need to fix speed in flight, orienting ability and vitality. Other factors are of minor concern?


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## hillfamilyloft

Mark, Ace in the Hole, has not chimed in to this conversation, but we both have talked and he practices, reducing breeding stock on a regular schedule. In other words to cream the crop. 
I agree with what much to Warren is saying. I think a guy would be better off to every few years do what Ludo did. Cut down to those select birds that are your best. Warren may be the only one in the world with pure Ludo birds in a few year. Many brought them in to cross with their families of birds. In the eight years that I have been breeding my colony of birds, I keep going back to a handful of birds that have brought me my best results. I may be getting to that time when my breeders all look the same. Like Warren's will very soon. I may keep running around 20 pairs to get the numbers I need to test, but they will start looking very similar in Pedigree. This next year, I will have five brothers and their father in the stock loft. I will have close to 10 direct children of another cock bird etc. Anything not related two these two might go. Thinking you might see both of these guys in every birds pedigree soon. As for hens, they are also key to the mix. Thinking about cleaning house. As soon as I can sit down and study things properly.


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## hillfamilyloft

This year I only have about 8 birds flying in races. This last weekend, one was 15th vs 322 birds. The flyer of the bird is a first year flyer. The bird is off a sibling of my second high points and best young bird in 07. These are off the aforementioned birds. Another sibling of theirs bred a winner last year. Every year my best birds are related back to the two cock birds. Might be time to breed a bit closer to those two now that they are getting a bit older. I have yet to be able to race a loft full of children and grandchildren of the two. Sometimes I think I get caught up in what Warren described as outcrossing for racing. Multiple families crossed into these two lines. Still not convinced that there is anything out there better than what I have. At least for my competition. May also turn to inbreeding and inbreeding to infuse the colony with the blood.


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## re lee

While inbreeding a famlyt line group of birds. ONE shoulds still have several exsisting famliy groups in that same line. And use those groups to also cross into the othere family groups. MEANING. Say the ludo birds. Have a idea on building around say THREE lines making 3 family groups of the LUDO birds. Then As needed a direct OUTCROSS from certion lines that have showed to cross well with the LUDO birds. Doing this Years go by without the birds getting to close. And it works. Just as well For a beginner to start with NO more then 3 lines of birds and purchase again from those same lines. As this shoretens the spread and increases the known results.. As I said many times In the breeding loft the idea is to produce oof spring as good or better then the parent birds. IF the birds have not produced birds as good or better then the parents in 3 years remove them. If they have produced better remove them. As you now have better.. With exception to a key breeder bird The prpotent type that speads quality. this bird remains a keeper. Evan with young bird racing only. You still must look beyond the winner and remember a winners grand children may be the better flyers. So time in season the 3 year concept lets one see clear. Bird start to look alike as they are selcted as like birds. MANS idea. when off set is to improve. Want speed then breed the faster birds to slower birds to improve there speeds. Breed sprint birds for oriontation to the middle distance. And send tougher weather birds to each race incase something changes along with your other select birds. And Breed for today. Meaning your birds have and need to be hawk aware Birds. As Hawks In the US Remember the strain makers. Or the greats of the past did cross But used birds that were known to cross well into there lines. So out cross as NEEDED not as wanted. And use the 3 years idea there. BUT Just My short minded Thoughts. Do not know why I posted This subject just made me say somthing


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## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> While inbreeding a famlyt line group of birds. ONE shoulds still have* several exsisting famliy groups in that same line.* And use those groups to also cross into the othere family groups. MEANING. Say the ludo birds. Have a idea on building around say THREE lines making 3 family groups of the LUDO birds. Then As needed a direct OUTCROSS from certion lines that have showed to cross well with the LUDO birds. Doing this Years go by without the birds getting to close. And it works. Just as well For a beginner to start with NO more then 3 lines of birds and purchase again from those same lines. As this shoretens the spread and increases the known results.. As I said many times In the breeding loft the idea is to produce oof spring as good or better then the parent birds.* IF the birds have not produced birds as good or better then the parents in 3 years remove them.* *If they have produced better remove them. As you now have better.*. With exception to a key breeder bird The prpotent type that speads quality. this bird remains a keeper. Evan with young bird racing only. You still must look beyond the winner and *remember a winners grand children may be the better flyers.* So time in season the 3 year concept lets one see clear. Bird start to look alike as they are selcted as like birds. MANS idea. when off set is to improve. Want speed then breed the faster birds to slower birds to improve there speeds. Breed sprint birds for oriontation to the middle distance. And send tougher weather birds to each race incase something changes along with your other select birds. And Breed for today. Meaning your birds have and need to be hawk aware Birds. As Hawks In the US Remember the strain makers. Or the greats of the past did cross But used birds that were known to cross well into there lines. *So out cross as NEEDED not as wanted.* And use the 3 years idea there. BUT Just My short minded Thoughts. Do not know why I posted This subject just made me say somthing


Wow Robert....so many relevant good points ! I really do appreciate it when you post your thoughts on a subject.

#1 Different "lines" within the same tree...or different branches, but from same tree. I know you have shared similar thoughts in the past. Years ago I was susceptible to the suggestion to "cross them" and of course the constant bombardment of the "evils" or uselessness etc of "Inbreeding". So I came to think of "crossing" in terms of a complete outcross. Fortunately, I was careful enough to maintain a few "straight" pairings during this time, so all has not been lost. But, your words I know are true, and using Ludo as an example because he is who I am most familiar with, had a number of distinct number branches, which I am fortunate I think, to own originals that are somewhat distant relatives from each other and and 2nd/3rd generation specimens. So, as you suggest, that is indeed the process I will employ.

#2 The so called "Key" pre-potent breeders I also agree 100%....should be kept for their productive life, unless I guess college tuition is due and you are broke. 

#3 Outcross when needed - In theory, the more inbred the colony becomes, the quality of the birds as racers begins to decrease due to inbreeding depression. On the other hand in theory, their value as breeders increases. The challenge is to introduce the outcross when *needed*. And perhaps *needed *is a very key word. And if the information I have is correct, then in 30 years time, Ludo is said to have introduced a cross fewer then 10 times. The math suggests perhaps about every three years ?

Some other good thoughts and ideas posted by others as well. I guess in theory many of us posting and reading these posts have a basic understanding as to what is required, it's the putting it into practice, which is the hard part. How many of us are maintaining a breeding colony is which say 20% of them are producing 80% of the most exceptional birds ? And in which 80% of the breeders produce only 20% of the exceptional offspring ?

If your % work out about that way, then one must consider that among those 80%, some might be some pretty good birds. Maybe some good pairs for a new fancier or someone wanting to improve what they already own. I am assuming here they are "good" or no point in you having them in first place. Remove some in that 80% group in order to make room for this years racing champs. Give some others a chance at bat inside the breeding loft ! However, I suspect most don't do this, and we also know that the really good fanciers do. 

If this is all true, then best course of action would be to the follow the example of the really great fanciers, and don't follow the example of the unsuccessful.


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## jtronics

Is "Stock sense" consider?

by Silvio Mattacchione
There are some people who really do have a gift with animals. This gift of recognizing quality in animals is called stock sense.

As i read Ludo History

"Ludo explains, "I don't know how I do it, but I think that I have something in me that says these are top birds, and these are second class."
"There are good pigeons everywhere," said Ludo

How lucky if a fancier hav the strains of ludo , janssen and others good strain.. they can produce more of same by inbreeding/line breeding.. But for new fancier with out those good strains who is seeking on "How to breed world class champion racing pigeon?" the question will still remain. 

Producing more of same will not lead to the next level unless there is a cross..


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## ejb3810

" Stock Sense " It is an elusive and mysterious concept to define. I truly believe that it is part experience and part some innate ability that not all are gifted with. It seems that some are more able to pair animals in a manner that produces consistent top progeny. On the other hand, it seems that most are doomed to produce mediocrity from brood stock of similar quality as the outstanding breeders?


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## ace in the hole

jtronics said:


> Is *"Stock sense"* consider?
> 
> by Silvio Mattacchione
> There are some people who really do have a gift with animals. This gift of recognizing quality in animals is called stock sense.
> 
> As i read Ludo History
> 
> "Ludo explains, "I don't know how I do it, but I think that I have something in me that says these are top birds, and these are second class."
> *"There are good pigeons everywhere," said Ludo*
> 
> How lucky if a fancier hav the strains of ludo , janssen and others good strain.. *they can produce more of same by inbreeding/line breeding*.. But for new fancier with out those good strains who is seeking on "How to breed world class champion racing pigeon?" the question will still remain.
> 
> Producing more of same will not lead to the next level unless there is a cross..


*"STOCK SENSE"*

This is something that few breeders have and even fewer use it the way they know they should. True stock sense does not have favorites. If the bird is not as close to perfect as you have seen with a race record / breeding record to match it should not stay... 

*"There are good pigeons everyware" *

That is true but most flyers don't know what they have or how to breed them. It does not matter what family or line of birds most flyers would have. Most pigeon flyer could have the best racers in the country but after five years of their hand at breeding this family of birds they will be getting right back to the average birds they had before. It is not just what you have to breed but how you breed it. It takes stock sense to keep that family of birds as good as they were when you got them and if you are really good maybe even a little better.

I think I just covered the *"They can produce more of the same by inbreeding/line breeding"* 

No one in the world can take a loft full of Ludo's and breed them the way Ludo himself would have. Even breeders with stock sense will not breed the same because they do not have Ludo's stock sense, they have their own. Every mind is different.


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## ace in the hole

It is all about what to cut, what to keep. Not just breeding this good cock with that good hen, but knowing exactly why you put those two birds together. Not because of their lines or their peds, but because of their type, confirmation and their fults or lack of. 

*I think 50% of stock sense is common sense.*


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> *Mark, Ace in the Hole, has not chimed in to this conversation, but we both have talked and he practices, reducing breeding stock on a regular schedule.* In other words to cream the crop.
> I agree with what much to Warren is saying. I think a guy would be better off to every few years do what Ludo did. Cut down to those select birds that are your best. Warren may be the only one in the world with pure Ludo birds in a few year. Many brought them in to cross with their families of birds. In the eight years that I have been breeding my colony of birds, I keep going back to a handful of birds that have brought me my best results. I may be getting to that time when my breeders all look the same. Like Warren's will very soon. I may keep running around 20 pairs to get the numbers I need to test, but they will start looking very similar in Pedigree. This next year, I will have five brothers and their father in the stock loft. I will have close to 10 direct children of another cock bird etc. Anything not related two these two might go. Thinking you might see both of these guys in every birds pedigree soon. As for hens, they are also key to the mix. Thinking about cleaning house. As soon as I can sit down and study things properly.


My breeding program does include reducing the breeders by 50% every 3 years. Just about 50% of my 2013 breeders will be 2012 birds. I will be bringing young back from some of the lofts that flew my birds this year but only from a few breedings. These young birds will help me create another shift in my breeding program next fall. If this shift goes as planed their will only be one or two 2008 bird in my loft. One 2009 bird, and maybe a 2010 and 2011 bird or two. All the rest will be 2012 and 2013 birds after next fall. I am calling this shift in breeding *"Ace In The Hole Loft the next generation". *


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> *"STOCK SENSE"*
> 
> This is something that few breeders have and even fewer use it the way they know they should. True stock sense does not have favorites. If the bird is not as close to perfect as you have seen with a race record / breeding record to match it should not stay...
> 
> *"There are good pigeons everyware" *
> 
> That is true but most flyers don't know what they have or how to breed them. It does not matter what family or line of birds most flyers would have. Most pigeon flyer could have the best racers in the country but after five years of their hand at breeding this family of birds they will be getting right back to the average birds they had before. It is not just what you have to breed but how you breed it. It takes stock sense to keep that family of birds as good as they were when you got them and if you are really good maybe even a little better.
> 
> I think I just covered the *"They can produce more of the same by inbreeding/line breeding"*
> 
> *No one in the world can take a loft full of Ludo's and breed them the way Ludo himself would have.* Even breeders with stock sense will not breed the same because they do not have Ludo's stock sense, they have their own. Every mind is different.


 *You are absolutely positively 100% correct !!!*

The same is true with every great strain that has ever come out of Europe in the last 150+ years. I know in my case, I would value immensely, perhaps more then additional original "Ludo's", if the great Master himself would visit the USA and Smith Family Loft's USA and grade each and every pair, and every bird, and tell me what to keep and what to remove from the breeding program, and to suggest pairings. Funny thing, I wouldn't be surprised if he suggested removing some "Ludo's" while retaining other winner's from different lines. If he did that every year, why then I would be breeding champions quite often. Problem is, regardless of which family one may start with, one may have had several other breeders since the original master breeder. 

As I have said on quite a number of occasions, after another fancier begins to make the selections, and with each successive generation, changes begin to occur. Most typically of course is degeneration, in other words the birds begin to breed down, and quality diminishes, sometimes very fast, regardless of what some pedigree might say. One could debate how quickly that can happen, but most would have to agree, that with each different pair of hands, and with each generation, the birds will at some point, bear little resemblance to the originals. And as is most often the case, I suspect if the original master were to grade what is being referred to as this fancier's "strain" would be in large part considered very typical to substandard birds. 

*I suspect that is may be just as difficult to take a typical colony of racing pigeons and breed them "up" every generation or so. As it is for a fancier to start at a much higher level, and to maintain the quality already present in some number of birds in his breeding colony. 
*

Regardless of where one might be starting, at whatever level of quality or performance, the tasks remains to same. Identify and breed only from the most exceptional breeding specimens produced or otherwise acquired. Submit all of those produced to rigorous training and selection processes, then take the top creme and then pair those for maximum benefit. 

I have no idea what "stock" sense can be taught or learned, and how much is just some sort of ability from our brains being hard wired somehow to let us see some things that others do not seem to see. I think the analogy to an artist is a good one. Where one can "see" what the finished product should look like, before it even exists, and then is able to combine things in the physical world to build what he or she saw in their mind. This ability or gift, is with some and not others, and who is to reason or wonder why ? 

I think many of us, just may have less actual talent then we think we do in this regard. Which is why I have often refrained in the past from calling what my pigeons are, as anything other then a Smith or a Burns or a Smith/Burns, or Ludo based, etc. Because I have great respect for the talents and gifts of Ludo Claessen, and I feel we have bonded in some small way, because I do not think it is humanly possible for me to ever surpass Mr. Claessen in anything pigeon related. So in a way, I felt it was intellectually dishonest to insinuate that every pair I own or produce is as a result of the selections of Ludo Claessen, and thus every bird I have is a Ludo Claessen. I do have a few pigeons selected by Ludo to pair together, but certainly going forward, I will have to accept responsibility as to what is produced based on my selections, good, bad, or indifferent. And if I must say so myself, I think that attitude and respect, made it possible to acquire such bird's as Bont 509. See: http://smithfamilyloft.com/Bont509.html

I will continue going forward to take care in what I do with these treasures that Mr. Claessen has shared with me. And I will certainly to my utmost to insure that only those meeting riget selection procedures and methods in order to attempt to insure that only the most exceptional specimens are used to carry on the family's heritage of winning races. 

Here is one example, from Zus Maxx a Ludo Original paired to a Ludo descendant the "No Bander", inbreeding co-efficent not accurate due to missing entries on Zus Max side of pedigree. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=630395&postcount=47 Race Results : http://www.wincompanion.com/one_uni...es.php?pigeon=0514-AU11-SFL&rid=6&skin=winner For Video, which believe me, needs updating, in no way does justice to the 11 AU 514 SFL, he was removed from shipping container and thrown into a fly pen, and he was very unsure of himself. He looks very much the cock now, very sassy, ready to knock off any bird on a perch he takes a liking to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGXwaxt54UE

How bird's were paired :


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## SmithFamilyLoft

ejb3810 said:


> " Stock Sense " It is an elusive and mysterious concept to define. I truly believe that it is part experience and part some innate ability that not all are gifted with. It seems that some are more able to pair animals in a manner that produces consistent top progeny. On the other hand, it seems that most are doomed to produce mediocrity from brood stock of similar quality as the outstanding breeders?


Thank you ! (and sorry for turning this into a chapter in a book)

So many good posts, it is hard to know when to stop commenting for fear I will appear to be dominating my own thread. But, I just want to say that many of you do inspire me with your insight. It is refreshing to be able to see such a thread where a wealth of information and insight is shared. It certainly has caused me to think of some things in more detail, that I might never otherwise have. 

The work before us, is almost overwhelming in complexity. No way to even know, what we don't know. Every new bit of insight, no matter how insignificant by itself, can be the embryo of an idea. An idea can be a very powerful thing, if one can summon up the courage to say "what the heck" ! And put oneself 110% behind a set of fundamental principles, and be willing at times, to put "the peddle to the metal" even when the outcome can never be truly known until one tests the proposition. And then, when positive results are had, the results must be able to be duplicated by others. Then perhaps one can more intelligently decide, if indeed a certain "idea" is indeed based on some evidence and preferably some very conclusive evidence. 

#1

I think the evidence suggests, that over time, the competitive effectiveness of any particular family line, is doomed on some level to meet this fate. 

#2 
The reasons vary, but they all progressively fall in greater and greater hands, and as a result, weaker and weaker hands. See the result of "pure bred" dogs in the USA and elsewhere once they become "popular".  The same results with various "strains" of racing pigeons. The good genes become combined with "good" fanciers birds, they form new families under variety of names depending on skill of fancier. A prime example would be myself, as a average fancier I would want to feature or drop Ludo's name whenever possible.  I cross in a line with great fanfare and success, those bird's could just be referred to as a "Smith", which I think is a bit more honest, but in future pedigrees of other's the name may very well contain the name "Ludo Claessen" on the bird which I have bred. Or the bird's heritage could even be played down as it is "mixed" or "crossed" and instead it becomes "Super Champion" line...or "720" line etc. ..where strain starts with individual Champion. In other words, a long winded way of saying the line gets absorbed in various families and new super lines, ie Janssen. What is left is a small cadre of hard core enthusiasts who attempt to keep a family line "pure" for ever...like the modern day race horse industry and those pigeon and dog fanciers working with various breeds and strains within breeds etc. Or else within pigeon strains, the strain name changes when the owner deems it more commercially viable to do so. Which is why name chasing is rarely a good long way to build a winning breeding team. But, then that is my idea, which at this point is just my experience. One can fill a loft full of offspring from European Champions, and over some extended period of time, if enough of these birds are sorted through in order to find those three of four exceptional birds in which to breed around, one could build a Champion Quality Colony of that I am sure, if it is in the hands of a master breeder. It is my contention, that such an effort must be measured in decades. Such is the core of some fifty pairs at SFL. The result of $100k worth of numerous GFL type birds and others going back to the 1960's, by way of my loft partner Lewis Burns. 

#3 
With and from that perspective. In one very real sense, it is indeed frustrating, and perhaps it irate's me a bit more then I let on, that fifty + years on Lew's part, and 10+ years recent effort on my part, and I am not convinced then we can today produce any better, then what a very small select few, with a certain fancier's "name" attached to it, are producing in our loft's at this very moment. 

#4 
Now I may very well be digressing far and wide with this post, but please let me share, as I really invite critical in site. I will of course blame you for coming up with the "stupid" idea, which if I go along with it, and it blows up !  and I might just forget you altogether if it works in order to claim credit for it myself,  because that is just the kind of egotistic maniac as I am. For having the gull to think that I can manipulate the selection process other then what nature applies to a pigeon, in order to manipulate for my own purposes. I give the Creator the Glory for being the designer and builder of this physical system of nature, along with the ability of the species to evolve and adjust to the forces of Nature. 

#5
It is thus with the utmost in humility, reverence, and respect, that any gifts present in my abilities, is not the result of my personal individual genius, even if at times a ray of it might just appear to shines though on occasions. For the most part, what one will mostly see, is the human fragilities. For the inspiration for evolutionary change, is already right before us, in every pigeon within our lofts. All this is required is for the scales to fall off my eyes to see that "Perfect" pigeon with vision sharper then any LCD large screen image on my upper end TV. 

#6 
*I believe that the Perfect pigeon has yet to be hatched*. Rather then being frustrated that sixty+ years of work has not surpassed or equalled the thirty+ years work of Ludo Claessen. Should be thrilled...It seems to confirm that we sucessfully managed to acquire that which was better then anything else that we owned, not just a couple of high priced pieces of paper, which is most often the case in such endeavors. Should be jumping up and down, that we can take our game to a whole new level, even if while in our hands, the birds quality could decrease over some prolonged period of time. As all that is really required is for offspring and future offspring to be "In-The-Money" in enough One Loft events to continue playing the game. With every new success, comes the ability to field new champion level prospects in next year's event. And the prospect of *success breeding success *becomes a real possibility. Well, that is my idea at least. Thank you for letting me share, and perhaps brag a bit. I have shared both my successes and failures with my friends on here at Pigeon Talk, and I appreciate your points you share. As I am convinced that these pages have helped me becoming better over the years as you have freely shared your ideas with me, some of which I have incorporated over time as my own. 

My attempts at having success follow the upcoming generation is currently ongoing on the Club and One Loft levels. With three important races to go, currently own 2012 Champion YB based on point system. Wrestling with removing 2012 AU SFL 89 DCH from race team. As the daughter to my winning 2011 Winners Cup cock bird, and already the winner of three club diploma's, what is the wisdom of risking her on additional races just for that additional piece of paper ? 

While the siblings to this 89 DC SFL hen above, are entered in the Winners Cup this year. See : http://www.galaxyloft.com/winnerscup/ Let's just hope, or at least I am, that the same winning genes are also present in her brother "Red Horse", and her unamed sibling in the same race "74" BC

Certainly would invite any comments at this point, that only an idiot now would risk #89 to additional races. Is three races, the latest 2nd Place finish being 296 miles, is that enough of a "test" and now time retire this beauty to a more important task, rather then screw her up from a year of breeding, or worse, possible loss, due to over hard racing. Retire her now ? Could end up winning the award come January and have no bird, or she won't lay for a year recovering.


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## Matt Bell

Well I am no where near the fancier or racer that you are Warren, but I was always told you will not lose the great pigeon. Can they be late? Sure, but you won't lose her if she is truly great.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Matt Bell said:


> Well I am no where near the fancier or racer that you are Warren, but I was always told you will not lose the great pigeon. Can they be late? Sure, but you won't lose her if she is truly great.



Just so you know, less you continue on a false assumption, *"good" birds can fail to return from a race. * As there are hazards out there on the race course that is beyond the control of "good" breeding. There are of course hawks, wires and other types of obstacles which could befall on even the best Champions, and more disturbing, especially in south central Pennsylvania, the all too often occurrence of birds returning injured from pellets shot from shotguns. 

And then, particularly with YB's, there are always those races like the 2006 336 mile race from Marion, Va. in which the race required four days to complete, with 1800+ birds and only three day birds. The best birds that day were not the first homing pigeons clocked, as I handled those birds ion shipping night, and one could never convince me different, but I digress.

With those possibilities, and the fact that this last 296 mile race has this hen looking a bit exhausted in order to win her diploma. Perhaps the smart fancier would allow her to rest, rather then attempting to get in another 600+ miles of racing out of her ? It's not like I am competing for $25000 in prize money. There is nothing additional to be gained and every thing to lose. At least that is my thought as this moment.


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## re lee

The concept of STARTING WITH THE BEST BIRDS YOU CAN AFFORD. is a key to building any loft. Then one has to use this idea go as close as you can to the source, Buy only up to 3 pair for a start. keep only the better useable young. Meaning 3 pair say 18 young raised total. Keeping 1 to 3 only IF they prove out. THERE are many birds raised each year that have a nice pedigree. But few that are good birds. And as people tend to sell pedigrees People buy those lesser birds. If you have started right with KNOWN good birds. You have a greater chance to devolp the loft. IF and ONLY IF you select the small percent of good off spring. And remove the others. That is for the STOCK loft. And carry over those birds Until you find the right mate for the right bird. Just adding this bird because it did well Never works It needs the right mate. AND Then HENS they are a key. without known good hens chances are less on raising good birds.Take warren He has some direct known good LUDO bred birds. He has a key He can use. Now the rest is in his idea The minds eye to breeding. . The idea on anything is Offset the bad to improve the good. The best race bird may not have the TOOLS to be the better breeder. But its a start Knowing you may have to wait until its grand children Have raced and bred to find that better breeder of good birds. . Take the IDEA say you raised 100 young birds chances are you would have say 20 that are decent useable RACE birds. The others are not. Then those 20 You find 2 that are the best at what they do. 18 Or for the race loft 2 are watched for future breeders. 1 is the best the other is close. Now ANY bird will be lost. It happens every year. Was it the bird or was it a hawk Well one never knows But the bird is lost. USA will never be the proving ground of racing like over seas. Because the numbers just are not there. BUT as you can see When over seas lofts enyer USA one loft races The US birds do very well. So those birds can do well over seas as well. To be consistant in your breeding you have to race and select and add as needed when needed. BUT never from the lates FAD. because certion birds cross well and others not as well. The fad is just new knowledge about another winning loft But Hey Mant of those bird will never help Not unless you buy from that LOFT not the hand me downs from a sell pitch of pretty paper. Any loft can take what they have and move forward. By selection. That move takes time And the best racing people in the world have spent years getting where they are. . Staying there is what matters As everyone is trying Just some do better then others. Because they HAVE A PLAN and stick by it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Imported Recessive Red Meuleman*

As per my previous posts on these pages, I am removing various stock birds from my "special" skunkworks breeding program. I am only going to retain those lines which are tied to my Ludo Claessen One Loft Winning Lines. Don't have any room for any other types of "experimental" lines. The exception is for some hybrid hens which have done well in racing, they will be retained for crossing purposes.  

See : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=702370&postcount=1


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