# Dove with neurological damage?



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This little fellow was found yesterday by a work colleague and his wife who live in a village close by. They are the ones that found the half eaten-alive stock dove earlier this year.

He was plastered in compost on one side as if he had been pushed against it with some force and his head is gradually pulled backwards until he is in the position photographed. He stays like that for hours.

He has a small puncture wound in his head, which makes me wonder whether he has brain damage from a claw (cat or hawk), it could also be PMV or paratyphoid.

I have been gavaging soaked chick starter crumbs and his poops have become prety perfect.

He is under a heat lamp which may (or may not) account for the fact that his feet are red instead of the typical spider brown colour of CD feet.


Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cynthia,

I'm so sorry to hear about this bird. He does look like he has a neurological problem, hope he doesn't have brain damage though.

He definitely is in great hands, please keep us posted on any new developments.

Thank you.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That may qualify as "opisthotonos" so you might try that as a search word in the Big Book. I haven't seen that particular symptom except in the death throes of Avitrol poisoning, late stage--let's hope this isn't that severe. Best of luck, Cynthia!

Pidgey


----------



## karla (Jul 8, 2006)

Oh no! poor little thing! 
But the good thing is ...
You rescued him Cynthia, he is in good hands now.
I looks like paramyxovirosis, but if you say he or she got a hole in his head, you could be right with brain damage  
God bless you Cynthia.

Karla


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Fortunately he isn't in his death throes, I have had him for over 24 hours now and his digestive system is functioning well enough for the poops to change from runny green to a nice firm brown.

I am certain that it is ataxia or stargazing although not in the form that I have seen it in PMV pigeons.

http://www.petplace.com/birds/ataxia/page2.aspx

This describes how it happens although there can be many causes, I just hope that in this case the effect is temporary. There is some twitching when I correct the neck, he can hold it in position for perhaps half a minute.

_Typically the muscles to the sides of the neck will be contracting causing a twitching and twisting if they contract singly, or pulling the head directly back pointing the beak to the sky if they contract together. _


Cynthia


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Poor little baby. Glad he is with you, Cynthia.
My vet mentioned once that besides PMV, trauma, paratyphoid, also meninitis (bacterial, fungal and viral) can cause the same neurological symptoms. A puncture wound through the scull can certainly cause a bactrial or viral meningitis or even encephalitis.
An antiinflammatory might relieve the torticollis a bit.

Hope this sweetie shows sings of improvement soon.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,



Could be an injury to the muscles and/or vertabre of her Neck, where this is for now, the least painful position to assume...

Glad things are going well...!


Yes...just feed them the most nutritious formulas you can whoop up...with a little extra "B" Vitamines and Calcium and Chlorophyll and unsweetened Cherry or Elderberry Syrups...and see how the next month goes...

Strains, sprains...can certainly take weeks to resolve...and Neurological injuries, of course can take much longer...


Can you describe in more detail, the puncture wound in her Head?

Is it in the scalp merely? Does it appear to have perforated her Skull? And so on...

Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Collared doves are so difficult to handle that I can examine the puncture wound closely.

I have him on Baytril as that breaches (?) the blood brain barrier. Will also try an antiinflammatory (metacam) and my good ols favourite calcium...and vitamins as these can also be symptoms of a vitamin deficiency.

He appears to have a tick under his eye....

Cynthia


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Poor little dove. Best of luck with this one Cynthia. It certainly seems to have more than enough problems to be dealt with. Is the tick possibly a pox lesion?

Terry


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Good luck Cynthia. Just a few days ago a local wildlife ctr told me that there seems to be 2 weeks in August where doves start showing up w/PMV. Unfortunately they said they have had zero success w/them, and that it's not manageable like the pigeon's PMV. I sure hope they're wrong.

Even though this dove has a lot going on, he's lucky to have made it into your care.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

HI Terry, 

Definitely a tick, I tried to remove the head with tweezers but the dove squirmed so I just got the body which bled. I went in again for the head, hope I got it but might have to ask the vet!

I don't know if doves get Lymes Disease...not even sure I know what Lymes disease is.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lyme disease was first diagnosed near Lyme, New York (somewhere up there, anyhow). Hopefully, nobody hauled it over to the UK--you don't want it.

Pidgey


----------



## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Good luck with the dove Cynthia - gosh her head is really back - poor thing.... I know you have some experience with this though so she is in good hands....

Tania xx


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Poor little dove-dove. Best of luck with him, Cynthia. If anyone can pull him through, it's you.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I hope he turns out okay, Cynthia. Here is what I found on doves/ticks/Lyme disease:
_
TICKS
Ticks can create problems for birds when they attach themselves to skin around the eyes, making it difficult for the bird to locate food. Birds may also transport the deer tick, the vector of Lyme disease, from one place to another, but are not considered a host for the disease._

This is all the information I could find on doves and Lyme disease, which leads me to believe that doves do not get the disease. Good luck with the little guy.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is great infor, thank you.

It means I can discount the tick now I have dealt with it.

It may just be wishful thinking but I feel the dove looks fractionally better.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> That may qualify as "opisthotonos" so you might try that as a search word in the Big Book. I haven't seen that particular symptom except in the death throes of Avitrol poisoning, late stage--let's hope this isn't that severe. Best of luck, Cynthia!


LOL, Pidgey, I did a search of the Big Book as you suggested and there "opisthotonos" is described as "star-gazing" and the possible result of vitamin B1 deficiency, which was among my original thoughts...together with PMV, paratyphoid, encephalitis etc. But in human medicine it is used to describe the more violent back arching symptoms seen in tetanus and in strychnine poisoning so I understand your reference to avitrol.

As it is a mucular contraction, I wonder if Diazepam would help? Not that I would administer that without the vet's approval and supervision.

Cynthia


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Cynthia,

I know in humans a balance of calcium/magnesium levels are very important for muscles to be able to relax, heres a link:

http://www.upnaway.com/~poliowa/Magnesium Mucle Relaxation.html

I don't know if the same applies in birds, I would think it should though. I know there are many liquid Calcium+ Magnesium Supplements out there, I wonder whether magnesium would be of benefit to this bird, maybe others can add to this thought or have better/more information.

Also, I would think that Valium would work well to give some temporary relief. When the operation was done on Pidge, 2 MG were administered (his weight was 355 gms), he was still quite conscious, but just VERY relaxed/sedated. I would think that a dose in the 1/8 MG range would be in the ballpark for dose for a bird of this size to relax and not heavily sedate.

Ron


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I had looked into using that stuff on my epileptic bird (YoYo) and was surprised at how much of it they dose birds with. It was almost as if the same pill for me would be given to the bird (~1 milligram). I DO have a bird or two that eat just about as much as I do... only they're more industrious!

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Amazing! I was prescribed 5mg tablets for my back (only 3, I had the last one last night) and warned that a single tablet would knock me out. I had imagined that it would be necessary to crush the tablet and give just a tiny grain to the dove.

I wonder if they are as addictive when used on pigeons as when used on people?

Cynthia


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

2mg sounds like a lot for a bird.
Anyways, Valium should help with torticollis, it is actually the treatment for severe torticollis valium and aspirin. I used it a few times on myself with great results. Valium is a great muscle relaxer.

Reti


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I will try to find some valium!

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cynthia,

The natural version of Valium is Valerian, and it has been used for many years, especially in Germany as a seditive and sleep aid.


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey, I was surprised as well. Reti. the 2 Mg. dose, and I fully agree it did seem very high, was to bring about very heavy sedation in this case, as delicate surgery was about to be done. The doctor who did the surgery said it was extremely important that there was no movement during his operation (this is from the Pigeon on My Balcony thread). One of the links I used, I saved this one, but there where a few others, http://oslovet.veths.no/compendia/LAS/KAP26.pdf, recommends 2.5 - 5 Mg. per Kg and this is by injection so oral would not have quite as strong an affect. (note did not use any Equithesin, just Valium, so I used the higher end of the range) This dose didn't even knock him out and he became quite alert and more active, only 25 minutes after the dose what first given, thankfully the operation took about 15 minutes to complete. 

Ron


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wow, that's pretty strong pigie you have there Ron. 2mg probably would make me sleep for a while LOL.
So, what is the usual dose for a pigeon 2-5mg? That is a human dose.

Treesa is right, you can try Valerian, not sure if it has the same muscle ralaxing effect though.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I wonder if they are as addictive when used on pigeons as when used on people?
> 
> Cynthia


Of all the rehabs to have to do, I don't ever want to have to deal with a Pigeon who's a junkie!

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Reti, trust me, it would make me sleep as well. 

For my own peace of mind, I did have to get confirmation of the use of this high a dose from a few other sites to make sure I was not going to bring harm to the bird. You're right, the 2-5 mg. dose is a human amount and I did calculate at the time that if I were to receive an equivalent pound for pound dose, it would be over 400 mg. Wow! And as I said, this guy was up and walking around, albeit a little tentatively, less that 30 minutes after the dose (the drug seemed to take full effect in 10-12 minutes, a much, much shorter time in than a human, I want to add for clarification this Valium was a liquid form and meant for injection, but was given orally, I was nervous about doing the injection , if a suspension or a small piece of pill were to be given it most likely would take somewhat longer to take effect I would imagine). I would take it that their very high metabolism and perhaps the amount of receptors in their brain/nervous system has a lot to do with this. 

Sometimes you just have to trust the information on the Net is accurate, of course with more than one confirmation, and to operate on an adult pigeon without full anesthesia being available, I would have no problem giving this dose amount again and feeling comfortable. I do think that this kind of information is important to know, because there are times when delicate procedures need done by us, when a vet is just not possible or practical, and it would be better both for the bird, and us, if they where as calm as can be. I am thinking the setting of broken legs and wings as an example where a sedated bird would benefit from a reduction in stress and probably receive a better outcome when the person doing the setting does not have to fight the bird as much to get their job done.

Ron


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just a thought and I may be waaaay off base here, but would Prednisone help?

I keep thinking of Cindy's Pij and how much he was helped...


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the info Ron. Never thought of using it for mini-surgeries.
I guess, you're right, their high metabolism and maybe less receptors to valium might make it safe for using it on birds.

Mr.Squeaks, prednison would help if what is wrong here is viral, but could not be good if there is bacterial infection.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The reason being that Prednisone acts as an immunosuppressant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prednisone

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Improving...*

Lat night I watched the little dove as he stood with his head bent so far back it almost touched the tail.

Then he suddenly held his head upright, it wobbled alarmingly! he turned, gave himself a little preen on the back and went back to star-gazing.

Some minutes later he did the same thing, a one second preen this time of his breast and he sank back.

Today his head is still held back but not nearly as far back as it was.

He is a strong bird!

Photos to follow later.

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cynthia, 

That sounds like some good signs  , and hopefully you will continue to see him hold his head normal more times, for longer durations of time until he is healed.  

thanks for sharing the update.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's a good thing you're no stranger to long, agonizingly-slow recoveries!

Pidgey


----------



## arnieismybaby (Jul 24, 2006)

Cynthia!

Thank goodness that the dove is in your loving, caring hands. I have to say that the picture of him with his head that far back brought tears to my eyes.  Glad to read that he is a fighter and is slowly trying to raise his head to where it should be.

Michelle.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just catching up!

Leslie, thanks for the info, the doves that you are referring to, are the collared doves or others?

Pidgey, we have had Lyme disease here since the 19th century, apparently, though not by that name! And a lot of deer around, mostly "introduced" species that thrived in the wild, such as Muntjac so we are constantly being warned about the dangers.

http://www.wadhurst.demon.co.uk/lyme/

Cynthia


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sounds like he is making some progress. I am so glad to hear that.

Reti


----------



## karla (Jul 8, 2006)

I am glad to know he is getting better!!!!
Karla


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Little Dove is making such fast progress! Tonight she is eating out of a deep pot, stretching her wings and preening!

Cynthia


----------



## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

That's great. Amazing how quickly they can recover. The Valium should be with you tomorrow but, let's hope it's not needed.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> Little Dove is making such fast progress! Tonight she is eating out of a deep pot, stretching her wings and preening!
> 
> Cynthia



That is the bestest news! 

Isn't it amazing what a little supportive care, nutrition and FOOD, and love can do?!


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That's very encouraging, Cynthia. Doesn't it warm your heart to see a sick or injured bird eating on its own? I'm so glad she's doing better!


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Leslie, thanks for the info, the doves that you are referring to, are the collared doves or others?


Great news to hear that your little dove is making such progress. It's so uplifting to know when you make such a difference.

The doves I was told come down w/PMV for about 2 wks in August are the mourning doves. As it turns out, a dove I brought to that wildlife rehab place about a wk ago (he had been attacked by cat or dog), who was doing ok on antibiotics from what they told me, they did euthanize . According to them he came down with the PMV. I have used them before and would never have brought them this dove if I didn't trust them, but...they were supposed to call me before hand if they had to euthanize for any reason. 

Has anyone else heard of this mourning dove PMV occurrance? Supposedly they never recover from it like pigeons.

Anyway, please give a little coo for me to your little dove & keep up the much appreciated labor of love.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Very heart-warming to hear that your little dove is doing better. We're all hoping she keeps getting better every day. Keep up the great work!


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks Cynthia for the positive update on this little one.

Ron


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Leslie,

It is only recently that people have begun to admit that pigeons stop shedding the virus after 6 weeks and that many make a complete and spontanous recovery. Before that euthanasia was recommended and most vets and rehabbers still insist on euthanasia, because it takes time and resources to nurse a bird through PMV, the main problem being the length of time it takes them to recover and the need to isolate for 6 weeks at least (I usually go for longer).

As far as I remember none of our members has found a mourning dove with PMV, so we have had no history to check the theory that they never recover.

Would the law allow an unreleasable mourning dove to be kept in captivity? That might be an influencing factor.

Cynthia


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Cynthia, your news sounds very promising for your dove!

Continued healing thoughts and hugs for a full recovery!

Positive updates are anticipated!!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is Spixie today (she was found in a place called Spixworth).

She definitely has PMV, the flash of the camera made her neck twist. She has a long way to go still, but is definitely getting better. Today she managed to escape from the intensive care tank and fly across the room, so she has been promoted to a chinchilla cage.

Cynthia


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

She looks a lot better, Cythia. Thank God she made her way into your capable hands.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She looks so much better.
What are you treating her with?

Reti


----------

