# Help please



## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I have 2 dead birds in 2 days. The first one i took inside and the droppings were grass green and runny not formed at all, I give them acv in the water every day disinfect the waterers every time I put a new bird in there 10 days ago but his droppings are the best of them all, I have since put him in the new loft here his droppings










I treated them a week ago with global multi mix for 5 days, I have 4 in one, Amoxycillinum tablets,and Moxidectin comming in the mail next week. Any thoughts as what to do before i loose them all. Here are the droppings for the other birds, and they are not eating much either. They look perfectly healthy hours before they die.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

How many birds do you have? How many are showing any signs of illness?, Did you change anything?..., new bag of feed, new cleaning solution, new additives or supplements? What does their breath smell like, any off odors? Any breathing sounds or issues at all, even small? Any new additions to the loft?..., if so, were proper quarantine procedures observed? Global's Multi-Mix is to treat canker, coccidia and worms, how much did you use, does it say on the package what the active ingredients are and were they sick before treatment, or did this start after treating? Can you quarantine the ones showing any signs? Hard to tell exactly from the droppings as some don't look too bad, mixed in with some questionable ones.

Good luck with them,

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I have 15 birds. None showed illness, The 2 that died the one showed illness hours before the other one was fine at 330 pm when i left for work and was dead the next morning. All the birds looked good and ate most of there food before i left for work today. I haven't changed a thing, other than the multi mix, and putting the new bird in there 10 days ago. I did not quarantine that bird. I used it like the label says like i have done since i got the birds. I used the mix because breeding season is here. I give the birds a bath yesterday and they all bathed, They are acting normal cooing and chasing the hens around today.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

There are not a lot of things that do this to a bird, acting well one day, to dead 24 hours later. Two that come to mind are acute salmonellosis (paratyphoid) and acute aflatoxicosis. The first has to be suspected from introducing a new bird without a full quarantine period, which means 4 weeks, 6 being the ideal. A good deal of us have done this, but when something like this happens you have to study things to see if there is a possibility this could be the cause. This sometimes is problematic because if a bird is in a carrier state and asymptomatic, infected, but showing no signs of illness, in all likelihood a full quarantine would not catch this. With aflatoxicosis you get sudden death from ingestion of aflatoxins, most times from moldy seed/feed.

I know because they all seem to be acting OK, the easiet thing would be to just see how things go and if it were just one bird that died I would lean this way as well. But with two dying I think you have to more proactive in the things you do going forward. The first is I would double check you seeds to make very certain they did not get damp somehow and get a mold pocket in them, smell the bag/contain for any off smells and even taste a bit to if there is any hint of something being off your nose did not pick up on. If you are 99% sure things are OK. toss the bag, you need to feel 100% sure things are fine with their food.

If you are certain that the droppings you posted came from the dead birds, collect them up in a sterile container (a little boiling water into an already clean container) and have them tested for salmonella, store in the refrigerator until you take them in. Once the droppings are collected, I would start a disinfection program with a bleach solution (1:9, 1 part bleach to 9 parts water) and clean everything up and wipe things down with this solution, feeders, dishes perches, boxes, every where are best you can (rinse dishes with clean water and dry). You have to be careful as this solution off gasses chlorine fumes, so your birds have to be moved around so they don't breath any fumes. 

Until I got a better understanding of what is exactly happening, I would put the new bird back into quarantine as a precaution.

Just back to the Global Multi-Mix, how old is it, how is it stored and you were not clear if this situation came on after the treatment, or before.

One more suggestion would be to keep some Baytril on hand you can purchase some here: http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html , this would be a better broad spectrum antibiotic to have on hand, than Amoxicillin, and in the event this is a paratyphoid situation, it is the drug of choice for treatment.

You will need to get a vet involved to run some tests, others may have a few more ideas for you, but that is what came to my mind right now.


Good luck,

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato just about covered everything, but I have one question.....
Were there any 'marks' on either of the birds? Sometimes if a bird goes down quick.....say 'egg paralysis' (for example).....some of the other birds might 'gang up' on it and peck it to death. Just a thought.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

He just got some new birds and I do think one of those was the first to die.. they have a sickness.. not sure what though.. hopefully it was isolated to them and did not get to the rest.. esp if they seem fine now.. it could be viral with secondary bacterial.. so I would get fresh fecal samples.. like first thing in the morning so you know after you clean those are fresh over night samples and have them checked.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> He just got some new birds and I do think one of those was the first to die.. they have a sickness.. not sure what though.. hopefully it was isolated to them and did not get to the rest.. esp if they seem fine now.. it could be viral with secondary bacterial.. so I would get fresh fecal samples.. like first thing in the morning so you know after you clean those are fresh over night samples and have them checked.


The point with an asymptomatic carrier is that they don't die, or appear to be sick, they are a carrier of the salmonella bacteria and pass on illness to other birds, not saying that is for sure the case here, but could be. However, I did forget to mention that the new bird's droppings would need to be analyzed as well, separately. I guess as I see it, a new bird is introduced and birds start suddenly dying, large red flags are going up for me.

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> The point with an asymptomatic carrier is that they don't die, or appear to be sick, they are a carrier of the salmonella bacteria and pass on illness to other birds, not saying that is for sure the case here, but could be. However, I did forget to mention that the new bird's droppings would need to be analyzed as well, separately. I guess as I see it it, a new bird is introduced and birds start suddenly dying, large red flags are going up for me.
> 
> Karyn


yes it was one of the new ones.. not sure about he second bird.. guess he will have to let you know.. thinking stress of the new place could of pushed it over the edge so to speak if it had something already before it came to him..just have not seen alot of things that kill that quick beside young bird sickness.. it could be a number of things.. so hard to tell without testing..


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> The point with an asymptomatic carrier is that they don't die, or appear to be sick, they are a carrier of the salmonella bacteria and pass on illness to other birds, not saying that is for sure the case here, but could be. However, I did forget to mention that the new bird's droppings would need to be analyzed as well, separately.* I guess as I see it it, a new bird is introduced and birds start suddenly dying, large red flags are going up for me.*
> 
> Karyn


Yes, same here. 
But all I'm getting at is, sometimes it's not the illness that kills them in a loft situation. Most things can be treated, IF the other birds don't pick on them while their down.
Just last week, I had a perfectly healthy hen. She laid an egg while I was as work and then had 'egg paralysis'. She was scalped by the time I got home from work.......inside now recuperating 
That's why I was wondering if they had any marks on them.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Yes, same here.
> But all I'm getting at is, sometimes it's not the illness that kills them in a loft situation. Most things can be treated, IF the other birds don't pick on them while their down.
> Just last week, I had a perfectly healthy hen. She laid an egg while I was as work and then had 'egg paralysis'. She was scalped by the time I got home from work.......inside now recuperating
> That's why I was wondering if they had any marks on them.


I do not think the poor thing was even acting sick..which is weird...but perhaps even so if that was the case the other birds could tell.. he said it's droppings were green and water like.. in another thread.. I told him to open a new one here in sick birds..


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> I do not think the poor thing was even acting sick..which is weird...but perhaps even so if that was the case the other birds could tell.. he said it's droppings were green and water like.. in another thread.. I told him to open a new one here in sick birds..


Oh, OK....I missed the other thread 
I've lost a couple birds in the past like that.....never did find out why. But it was 1 at a time with a long span in between.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts, I just wanted to mention that there are references that Baytril will clear the carrier state of paratyphoid from birds with 12-14 days of treatment. If you isolate the new bird, clean things up, the others continue to do well, tests come back negative, but may have any lingering doubts about your new bird, run two weeks of Baytril on him and he should be able to then join your others.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

The first bird left me pick here up easily, and the other birds were after her but i got her in time. The second one was fine and had no marks on her both birds had no marks The first bird I bought, i had since Nov. The second bird i raised over a year old.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Shadybug Lofts, I just wanted to mention that there are references that Baytril will clear the carrier state of paratyphoid from birds with 12-14 days of treatment. If you isolate the new bird, clean things up, the others continue to do well, tests come back negative, but may have any lingering doubts about your new bird, run two weeks of Baytril on him and he should be able to then join your others.
> 
> Karyn


 He's in the new breeding loft now with one hen. He will stay there.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK good, with the hen... is she his mate?.. or another bird you are unsure of? Do the cleanup, collect the droppings to be analyzed (both from the birds that died and the new one - separately), disinfect everything to the best of your abilities, place an order for some Baytril and keep a good eye on the rest.

Karyn


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## vivagirl (Jun 24, 2008)

No one has fail to mention "the New Loft Syndrome" . Don't discount that possibilty.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

My wife just called, all the birds are roosting and look fine, and the hen in the new loft is setting in the nest bowl.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, good, please keep us informed of any developments.

Karyn


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## pidgey boy (Dec 23, 2010)

my birds dropping do not look anything like that but when they are that means that they are very sick you better take them to a vet before it gets any worse but make sure you get you're birds back my birds are healthy as they can get so i hope yours can too


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

vivagirl said:


> No one has fail to mention *"the New Loft Syndrome"* . Don't discount that possibilty.


 What's that?


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

No more sick birds for the last 3 days, There dropping look better, light brown and formed. My question is I have 4 in 1 powder for paratyphoid, canker, e coli and coccidiosis, APC Moxidectin for worms, and Amoxycillinum tablets for Respiratory infections, e coli, paratyphoid, and salmonella, coming tomorrow i hope, and my question is should i give them the 4 in 1 to be safe, and can i use the 4 in 1 and the wormer one after the other. I have 2 in the breeding loft ready to set in a week will it hurt to give it to them, one might be the carrier, he's the new bird. Your input is appreciated. Thanks Gary


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Gary, I have debating what to tell you. The problem is I suspect what they have, if anything, would be bacterial and not cocci, canker or worms (at least they would not kill suddenly like has happened) and on top of that I am not the biggest fan of 4-In-1's, so they would be treat for what I feel are somethings that are not the real possible issue at hand.

I can only tell you what I would do and that is this, I posted a link in my post #4 from March 25th, here it is again: http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html, I am hoping you have ordered the Baytril in, if not order it tomorrow, see if they can overnight it. Since things are stable I would, for now, just continue to monitor things, as everyone is appearing to be OK at present. When the Baytril came I would treat orally the new bird and his mate with the Baytril for 14 days and with the rest I would flock treat in their water for the same period. This is what I would do for my peace of mind, as well as the thorough disinfection of the loft I recommended a number of days ago.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

The amoxycillinum Tablets cover the same thing as the baytril. I don't want to pay another 25 when i have that coming tomorrow. The baytril does more than one thing, don't know what the difference is.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Amoxicillin will treat for salmonella (paratyphoid) but there are more and more strains losing their sensitivity to this antibiotic (becoming resistant), so if you asked a vet what he would use to treat a confirmed case of paratyphoid, in all likelihood his answer is going to be a fluoroquinolone, Enrofloxacin/Baytril belonging to this class of antibiotics. But the real reason I am suggesting using Baytril is that in all of the reading and reports I have read, up to date, only Baytril is said to clear a pigeon of the carrier state of salmonellosis (paratyphoid), no other antibiotic, this includes Amoxicillin will do this. Look nothing has been confirmed here, but a few things are suspected, so as I said if I was going to treat my birds, with the goal in mind to clear any latent carriers of harboring salmonella, only a fluoroquinolone will do this, IE; Baytril. 

Gary, when I offer advice, it is almost always something I have done for my birds or something I would do for my birds, if in similar circumstances, so, as mentioned before, this is the course of treatment I would select myself in order to have peace of mind about my birds in light of the sudden deaths that have occurred without explanation.


Karyn


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Shady:

Karyn nailed it. The Amox just treats the symptoms, and will likely allow the birds to survive, but the carrier birds will continue to re-infect in the future.

The other benefit to Amox is that it is generally safer during breeding season, or for young in the nest if you need to treat the parents. Baytril has some nasty side affects for birds under 3 weeks of age.

Your "new" bird isn't sick, correct? Might be the carrier-bird, especially if you haven't had any issues in the last couple of years.

Were the dead birds "light" at all? Loss of muscle, prominant keel-bone?

You can get Batril locally from some small animal Vets if you have a relationship with them. I have a Vet who cares for my horses- I got my last dose of Baytril from them. Baytril 10% Solution, 25 ml bottle. Dosage: 2 ml per qt. of water, recommended for 10 days. 

Small animal Vets can also usually screen droppings, especially if they have a partner who cares for cage birds, like 'tiels and parrots. Might help narrow the focus for the antibiotics, as they are best used specific to the strain of bacteria causing the issue at hand. Broad-spectrum "shotgun" approach is never as good.

Finally, if you have a nother loss- put the bird in the fridge (don't freeze) and get it to someplace for necropsy. Best way to get the straight poop about bad poop.

Good luck!!!

Don

Finally- the pigeon supply houses primarily sell "over the counter" stuff. They aren't allowed to sell prescription antibiotics, per se. It's like getting Vick's 44 at the grocery store versus the heavy-duty codeine-laced stuff, or real antibiotics from your Doctor. Same for pigeons, I guess.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I talked to the avian vet today. She said it sounds like ecoli but if non of the other birds are sick just treat them with the 4 in 1 for 14 days, I ordered some probiotics to follow up with after treatment. The vet said that most meds won't kill enough of the good bacteria that you would need the probiotics, but i could use it since i will have it. I think it would be necessary if you were racing to get them back in form faster. She said i should worm them to. This avian vet is a family friend and i trust her judgement. My daughter is a vet tech for small and large animals mostly horses and a anesthesiologist, and my sister is a vet tech for small animals. The vet also said that batril was good but that there were other antibiotic as good. I started the 4 in 1 today. I will keep you posted.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the update, I hope things continue to be well for your birds.

Karyn


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I talked to the avian vet today. She said it sounds like ecoli but if non of the other birds are sick just treat them with the 4 in 1 for 14 days, I ordered some probiotics to follow up with after treatment. The vet said that most meds won't kill enough of the good bacteria that you would need the probiotics, but i could use it since i will have it. I think it would be necessary if you were racing to get them back in form faster. She said i should worm them to. This avian vet is a family friend and i trust her judgement. My daughter is a vet tech for small and large animals mostly horses and a anesthesiologist, and my sister is a vet tech for small animals. The vet also said that batril was good but that there were other antibiotic as good. I started the 4 in 1 today. I will keep you posted.


 Baytril is a good strong antibiotic that does the job but its also got its bad side too , its very hard on their internal organs but it helps rid the birds of those tuf bacteria like paratyphoid and salamanella so you always have to outweigh the good with the bad to save the flock .


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I understand that but the rest of the birds are looking OK now. I will get some and keep it on hand


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I talked to the avian vet today. She said it sounds like ecoli but if non of the other birds are sick just treat them with the 4 in 1 for 14 days, I ordered some probiotics to follow up with after treatment. The vet said that most meds won't kill enough of the good bacteria that you would need the probiotics, but i could use it since i will have it. I think it would be necessary if you were racing to get them back in form faster. She said i should worm them to. This avian vet is a family friend and i trust her judgement. My daughter is a vet tech for small and large animals mostly horses and a anesthesiologist, and my sister is a vet tech for small animals. The vet also said that batril was good but that there were other antibiotic as good. I started the 4 in 1 today. I will keep you posted.


*Just FYI*, Last fall I had 2 birds down. I had a 'culture & sensitivity' done on their poops. It came back positive E-coli. It was resistant to many many antibiotics, including amoxicillin. Was NOT resistant to enrofloxacin (baytril).
Amoxicillin (and 4 in 1) might hold it at bay, but it won't kill it. I would get baytril and treat as suggested.
*And also*, I've been a vet tech for over 37 years. All the birds I lost in previous years were being treated by vets.  I was recently talking to one of my boss's (a vet). He admittedly said that - "when a vet says they don't treat pigeons, it's because they don't know HOW to treat pigeons".
I'm not downing your vet (or family), I'm just sharing past experience. Even though I work for a vet, I treat my birds myself with the advise given here at PT.....and I haven't lost any birds with a treatable condition since. Just FYI  Don't want you to make the same mistakes I did.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

My vet did not say not to treat pigeons, she said the 4 in 1 would be OK to do now since i already had it. I may use the baytril later because its the only one you can find in the mail, that's why its so popular I'm sure, Im learning here, so i to can treat my birds myself. She said there are antibiotics as good as baytril. Im know its like doctors, They push certain drugs and have reps come in to the clinics and they get discounts and samples of certain drugs. Im going to change from racing homers to show birds and plan to sell these birds soon to make room, I will do what it takes to get them well before i do that, I am planning on vaccinating all my birds from here on.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> My vet did not say not to treat pigeons, she said the 4 in 1 would be OK to do now since i already had it. I may use the baytril later because its the only one you can find in the mail, that's why its so popular I'm sure, Im learning here, so i to can treat my birds myself. She said there are antibiotics as good as baytril. Im know its like doctors, They push certain drugs and have reps come in to the clinics and they get discounts and samples of certain drugs. Im going to change from racing homers to show birds and plan to sell these birds soon to make room, I will do what it takes to get them well before i do that, I am planning on vaccinating all my birds from here on.


I think she was just saying vets are not informed on how to treat pigeons...and will advise 4 in 1 because it is sold for pigeons but she prolly does not even know what it is..or what is in it.. just need to beaware they are prolly guessing instead of knowing from experience with pigeons... but that is ok.. a relationship with any vet can be helpful.. just have to do some leg work yourself when it comes to pigeons.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I was going to leave this alone, as sometimes you give your best advice and a person is going to chose to do different, but I will try one more time. Your vet is suggesting treatment with a medicine, Foy's 4-In-1, that there is a good chance she does not even know what drugs are in it, and at what dosage levels, to initiate treatment with, this is a bit odd for a vet to do. Baytril, is harder to find as a result of some pressure from the FDA on concerns about propagating more bacteria that could be come resistant to fluoroquinolones, when they are not used correctly and for full coarse treatment, as Baytril was becoming too widely relied on when not really called for. 

Your vet is right, there are antibiotics as good as Baytril, some much better, depending on what a culture and sensitivity test may show, or when targeting certain types of bacteria, that other antibiotics would be a better choice for. The point I, and others, was trying to make to you was for paratyphoid infections (salmonellosis) Baytril would be the drug of choice, or one or two other fluoroquinolones, to not only treat the infection, but to clean any asymptomatic birds of a latent carrier state. No other antibiotic, or antibiotic class, is reported in the literature to do this.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

First, I understand what your saying, and i told her the ingredients in the 4 in 1 it's right on the bottle the percentage and drug. I did say i will treat them with baytril when i get it. I plan on vaccinating them to at a later date. Don't think I'm not listing to what everyone saying because i am. Im learning here. I'm just voicing my opinion, it doesn't mean I'm not going to use your advice. I do know one thing I cleaned the loft board yesterday and all the droppings were formed but real light brown or green This morning I checked and one bird is dropping well formed dark brown and white dropping The best i have seen in a while. Just an observation.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I just want to be clear, everyone has the right to chose the treatment course of action they wish to for their birds, and very rightly so. My concern was that any course of action decision, IMHO, be a fully informed one. It was never quite clear to me that the choice of using Amoxicillin, or other "just as good antibiotics", would not be that same, or as good a choice as Baytril, according to reports, in treating for a possible paratyphoid carrier state, was being clearly understood.

So, I am glad that you do understand the point that was trying to be made and that you are ordering in some Baytril, which in any event, will be an excellent drug to have on hand when needed. Good to hear the droppings are looking the best they have in a while, and observations are the way we end up knowing whether or not we are doing good, or not so good, for our birds.

Best of luck with your birds,

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I ordered baytril today. How long after i'm done with the 4 in 1 can i use it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I would give it 24 hours between stopping one and starting the other. The Baytril you ordered is 10%, meaning there are 100mg of pure Enrofloxacin (Baytril) in each 1 (one)mL. The directions will indicate for you to add 1mL to 1 quart of water (32oz) and use this as the sole source of water for the treatment period 10-14 days. As I mentioned before, with your new bird and his mate, I would dose individually, so their is no doubt they received full and correct amounts of medicine during the treatment period. 

To do this you would get a 1mL syringe and draw out 2 1/2mL of Baytril ( 2 syringes full to the 1.0mL mark, plus 1/2 a syringe full) and add this to the same amount of pancake syrup or honey, mix well and orally dose each bird 0.15mL (7.5mg Baytril) once a day, for 12-14 days, the 5mL you mixed should be enough to do this. The 7.5mg of Baytril should be a correct dose for a bird weighing 375g, if your guys weigh much more, or less, the dose can be adjusted.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

The new bird and the mate are in the breeding loft by themselves, and will have eggs any day now, would it be to hard on them now. They will have eggs by the time i get it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> The new bird and the mate are in the breeding loft by themselves, and will have eggs any day now, would it be to hard on them now. They will have eggs by the time i get it.


No, this will not be a problem at all, as it should only take a few moments to dose them each and no issues with the eggs, as they will be incubating them for more or less 18 days and their treatment will be finished well before that. The 0.15mL is roughly 3 drops of the medicine, once a day.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok Thanks for the info


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I didn't mean to start anything. I must have missed the part were you said you were going to treat everyone with baytril once you got it 
I have so much more respect for my boss/vet to admit and make that statement to me, and I have learned sooooo much here at PT about treating pigeons. That was just a bit of knowledge I wanted to share with you that I learned.
I'm glad their poops are looking better


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> I didn't mean to start anything. I must have missed the part were you said you were going to treat everyone with baytril once you got it
> I have so much more respect for my boss/vet to admit and make that statement to me, and I have learned sooooo much here at PT about treating pigeons. That was just a bit of knowledge I wanted to share with you that I learned.
> I'm glad their poops are looking better


That's OK, Im learning here and when i get done picking all your brains i will be better for it. The batril is coming from CA by regular mail it would cost a fortune to get it here overnight.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

The results are back, I have to get penicillin at the farm store and put it in the water for ten days and it will cure everything they have. I'm at work and my wife was trying to tell me but i think American idol was more important to her. LOL I Think e coli and infection in the air sack or something like that and one other thing .


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> The results are back, I have to get penicillin at the farm store and put it in the water for ten days and it will cure everything they have. I'm at work and my wife was trying to tell me but i think American idol was more impotent to her. LOL I Think e coli and infection in the air sack or something like that and one other thing .


Glad that you finally tracked down to who the villain is. Good luck


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug, when you get a chance to get fully briefed by you wife, I wouldn't mind getting a more full understanding of what was found, in terms of pathogenic bacteria, and why the choice penicillin to treat. Was a culture and sensitivity test done and penicillin was found to be the best choice for the antibiotic to treat with?

Thanks,

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

They have Haemophilus which is a infection of the air sack and e coli. The other thing is hedera fill, it just means there fighting the infections. I'm suppose to get water type something with a G penicillin I have it written down at home the kind you inject 100 ml from the farm store and just take the top off and keep it refrigerated, and 2 teaspoons full in a gallon of water for ten days will take care of both. There's less in the new loft but its in both lofts he even give me the counts its not a lot. This is what i was told.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> They have Haemophilus which is a infection of the air sack and e coli. The other thing is hedera fill, it just means there fighting the infections. I'm suppose to get water type something with a G penicillin I have it written down at home the kind you inject 100 ml from the farm store and just take the top off and keep it refrigerated, and 2 teaspoons full in a gallon of water for ten days will take care of both. There's less in the new loft but its in both lofts he even give me the counts its not a lot. This is what i was told.


Shadybug, thanks for the information, it was helpful. If for any reason you find you are not happy with the response to the Pen-G treatment, according to Merck, a fluoroquinolone would be a drug of choice for treatment (ie: Baytril) for this type of infection. It's always good to have a back up plan, so I thought I would mention this.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec14/ch173/ch173g.html

Good luck with all your birds,

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Don't you have to have a prescription for baytril. Thats what it says on petmeds.com


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can buy Salmonella Tabs. at Global, which are from the same family as Baytril, which is Enrofloxacin. Or if you can find who sells Enrofloxacin.

http://www.globalpigeon.com/index.php?cPath=24_56&sort=2a&page=2


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Don't you have to have a prescription for baytril. Thats what it says on petmeds.com


Shadybug, no not really, just a gentle reminder that I have provided you with this link two times before in this thread, here it is again; http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html, where you can order Baytril from, without a prescription.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I know, Just wondering how they can sell it if its a prescription drug.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I know, Just wondering how they can sell it if its a prescription drug.


Shadybug, many of the meds we use, everything from Doxycycline to Trimethoprim/Sulfa, and many more, if the were meant for a human would absolutely need a prescription, and the same would be true if you tried to go to a vet and purchase the same meds, but I think because they are meant for pet use, there may be a different set of rules governing their sale by non vets. Just my speculation, as I have never really given it much thought, or even really looked into it, just happy that I can get the meds I want without having to go to, or rely on, a vet if I chose not to.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok Just wondering, I guess that's why i was told to use penicillin, because i could get it at the farm store in 20 min.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

The birds are looking good, they go off the penicillin tomorrow, my question is should i give them a couple days of clean water before i give them probiotics, and how long should i give it to them. I would like to give them the probiotics on a regular basis what should that be. Thank in advance.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> The birds are looking good, they go off the penicillin tomorrow, my question is should i give them a couple days of clean water before i give them probiotics, and how long should i give it to them. I would like to give them the probiotics on a regular basis what should that be. Thank in advance.


Shadybug, glad your birds are looking good, I usually give it a day between ending antibiotic treatment and then beginning probiotics.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

OK Thanks Karyn, Is probiotics something you should give on a routine basis


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> OK Thanks Karyn, Is probiotics something you should give on a routine basis


The only time I give them is after a course of antibiotic treatment. They, for the most part, can pick up beneficial bacteria just from living among other healthy pigeons, kind of the same way they can pick up pathogenic bacteria from living with sick birds. Given good quality feed and clean water, pigeons kind of do pretty well without too much inferring with.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

OK Thanks Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Karyn, How many days do i give them probiotics. The label doen't say. Thank in advance. Gary


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Karyn, How many days do i give them probiotics. The label doen't say. Thank in advance. Gary


What usually I do is give them every second day for 2-3 treatments, so Thursday, Saturday and Monday for example, then finished.

Karyn


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

OK Thanks Karyn


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