# Fallen fledgling with head trauma



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Its been along time.
Found a fallen pigeon. Was going to leave it alone but then I saw head trauma.
I realize it’s probably going to die so im trying to make it comfortable.
Was going to clean the wound but most of it is dried.
immediately i put it on a towel that has a heat pad under. Heat pad is on low. Still waiting for bird to heat up before I offer it water.
Wings appear okay.
Legs really concern me they seem to go up alot farther than I thought but maybe I just havent seen a squab in awhile.

update: seems to be warming up,is getting a little more active. Tried to get up but fell. Is looking around


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

images


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Update: Seems to have spasms every once in awhile and breathing is getting heavy. Less hopeful. Still alert in between spasms though.

Also reading that I probably should not have given a pigeon with head trauma heat. If someone could elaborate I would appreciate it.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi, I'm sorry but I only have a few minutes, here you can read some helpful info about head trauma (post n. 6). 









Injured young pigeon - circling, sunken eyes


Hi, Found a young pigeon with sunken/half closed eyes, barely walking, not flying, circling/spinning. When walking home today I saw a pigeon on the floor by the side of the road close to another pigeon that was dead. I approached it and it didn't move at all and stayed laying down, it has very...




www.pigeons.biz





Yes, you don't have to keep a bird suffering from a head trauma on a heat pad because warmth could make the situation worse. 
As first thing put him in a quiet and cool room, in a soft light and see how he is doing.
He needs a calm and peaceful environment. 
Seizures could be a symptom of concussion. 
A heavy breath is not a good sign but, as I said, as first thing move him into a more appropriate place and let's see how he is doing. 

Please keep us updated.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

thank you for the help.

The bird is in a dim and quiet room now. The spasms have seemed to lessen immensely. I have turned off the heat pad.
I will offer the hydration solution pinned here in a little while as I am concerned with dehydration because the wound was dry by the time I found him.

Assuming the bird continues to live, i am concerned with infection. Is there anything else I should do?


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Update: the bird threw up some seeds and the bird is only half conscious. I doubt the bird will live long. Changed the birds towel.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Update: Bird was mostly sleeping. Out of nowhere it woke up. I think it started as a seizure. After the seizure the bird looked around, chirped, and drunk some water that was near. Then it went back to sleeping. After seeing that it went to the water and back I decided to check its temperature and further inspect it. The bottom of the bird is very swollen. I do think there are alot more internal issues than I anticipated. Its temperature dropped since I stopped the heat pad. Still just trying to make it comfortable before its inevitable death, but was surprised it had a moment of clarity where it drunk some water.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How is he doing? He is still very young, so needs a bit of heat. Looks like he got pecked by another pigeon. Has he been producing droppings? The crop is very full.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He is doing okay from what I can tell. I turned the heat pad back on a hour ago because it was starting to get cold in the house. He shifted himself in the box, but is still resting. He tried to drink water but I am questioning wether he can or not.

He is producing droppings. I have changed his towel twice since this morning. He also spit up up a couple seeds. I hope he will live through the night.
I would take a picture but he seems to be sensitive to light so I am trying to keep him comfortable because I am unsure wether he will die or not.

How old would you say he is?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He looks about a week old. Are the droppings normal? Should be brown and firm with a white dot (depending on the food he got fed).

The feet looks normal to me. I'm sure if he was internally injured, then he would have died already. Put two fingers on either side of his beak (so that his beak is in the middle). If he nuzzles your fingers, then he must be hungry and needs to be fed. Do you have a handraising formula for baby parrots? Kaytee Exact.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The crop should be empty by now.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

From your description the poop does not seem to be normal.
He did indeed nuzzle my fingers when I his beak between them. I Dont think I noticed a difference in crop but there are pictures for you to compare yourself.

my camera brightened everything, it is much darker in the room than shown. After handling him he started moving ands stretching his head while chirping. Can he chirp while still having a seizure? I really hope I didn't cause a seizure when handling him. 

Should I buy some parrot food and attempt to feed him? I have seen him try to drink but I dont think he is able to by himself without causing a seizure/spazzing. I am unaware how he was able to do it earlier. Is there a way to administer water/hydration solution? Should I administer water/hydration solution?


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Update: there is no doubt of seizures. It really pains me to watch the little bird suffer. i dont know what to do.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Get some parrot food and also a jar of human baby applesauce. If the crop is not empty (doesn't look empty) only feed him warmed up diluted applesauce. This will help to get the crop working again. Are you familiar with feeding small babies?

Will it be possible to open his beak and check inside for unusual yellow or whitish growths? You will need a flashlight to check deep inside the back of the throat.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Do you have a small medicine dropper? If so, you can hydrate him by holding the dropper next to his beak (so that the droplet touches the beak). Just keep away from nostrils. Just give ordinary water, no sugar or salt added.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If you have apple cider vinegar (the one with the "mother", add this to the water. Ratio of 5 ml acv to 1 litre of water.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Is he having seizures when trying to swallow?


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry for the late reply.

How is he doing?

He is passing through a critical phase, now we have to keep him alive until he has overcome it.
Seizures and colvulsions can happen in birds with head trauma, I know that they are very scary (last May my pigeon Marshall had horrible seizures for a whole week because he had PMV symptoms back) but be strong.

You have to try to reduce as much as possible stress, to avoid any fright or excitement and all other situations which could increase blood pressure and so brain swelling.
Have you read the links I posted yesterday?
If not, I'm going to copy some important passages, they explain the point clearly (they contain very helpful info, give them a read):

"Since the brain lies inside the bony skull, any bleeding or swelling that occurs will put downward pressure on the brain. This downward pressure from the bleeding or swelling on the brain squeezes or compresses the brain impairing its normal functioning ability.
(...)
Injuries that result in minimal clinical signs can become much more severe if the pet is allowed to become excited because of an increase in blood pressure that increases brain swelling".

"It's also possible that they convulse, show sudden palsies or twitches".

"Birds who are concussed are extremely photo-sensitive, they need much sleep".

"Heath intensifies the blood circulation and this will increase the pressure inside the brain. This will cause more pain and sickness to the bird or even kill him in the worst case.
The temperature should be around 21 degrees Celsius (70 degrees Fahrenheit)".

So, continue to keep him in a calm and quiet room (avoid any noise, music, tv, etc), in the dim light and in the right temperature.

Try to hydrate him as Marina explained (using an eye dropper).
Don't leave a water bowl next to him because birds having seizures are at risk of drowning. As it seems that he understands how to drink on his own, when it will be possible you can try offer him water by putting a small water bowl (like the one in the pic) in front of him (you can even dip his beak - not over the nostrils - in it).

Effectively the crop seems full from the pics. When did you find him exactly? Is he still pooping regularly? Try to give him applesauce as suggested, buy one without added sugar containing only apples. I am used to buy an organic fresh one, here you can see it so you can get an idea:



https://world.openfoodfacts.org/product/3560070969708/puree-de-pommes-carrefour-bio



Warm it for a few seconds before giving it. I have an induction cooker and I am used to warm it for 5 seconds at 9 level. In any case check it with your fingers.
When you will feed him (I really hope that there are no issues with his crop. Be sure that the crop is empty before feeding him) you can add a bit of applesauce to the baby bird formula (one for seed eaters). Remember to use warm water (always check it with your fingers) when you will prepare the formula.

Regarding the injury on his head, I cared about a scalped pigeon, this is what I did: I disinfected the wound and applied an antibiotic cream twice a day for some days (you should decide how many days according to the condition of the wound). Then I stopped the antibiotic cream and applied for some days a healing cream (same thing for days).
Pay attention to any bad smell, if you notice it it means that the injury is becoming infected. In that case an oral antibiotic is absolutely needed.
I gave to my pigeon even metacam but honestly I don't know if it's a good idea in your case.

About internal injuries my vet told me that usually you could rule them out after 48 hours.
When you will feed him pay attention to the color of the mouth mucosa (mucous membranes), if it looks pale it could be a sign of anemia (which could be caused even by an internal bleeding).
In all cases, you could add to his drinking water a vitamin supplement containing iron and even B-complex vitamins, it will help him to replace the lost red cells. You can prepare the formula with the water enriched with vitamins.
Unfortunately in case of internal bleeding there is nothing we can do.

Please keep us updated.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He is still alive!
I removed his water bowl yesterday when it was clear he could not use it.
In the night he had no other seizures once I was done handling him. They are indeed triggered by light/noise.
I had the heat pad on at night because it got cold where I live.
Last night i gave him .8ml total of the water/salt/sugar posted on this board. With a eyedropper. Two .4ml a hour apart from one another.
I am sorry I did not read marina's post in time. I have apple cider vinegar with mother. I did not read your post in time to add it. I hope sugar/salt did not cause any harm.

No seizures happened when administering water. He was able to keep it down seemingly fine too.

I found him yesterday. I posted here about a hour or two after I had him.
He was on the second story of my roof, and I know pigeons nest on the third story. I wasnt going to bother until I saw him convulsing and noticed head trauma.

He seems to be pooping regularly. (Every 3 hours I change the pad and there is poop on it)

is there a specific antibiotic or healing cream i need to get? Names would also be appreciated on a liquid antibiotic so I can get it just in case.

Thank you for your help Colombina and Marina!


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Bird sleeping










Bird looking around while I get a new pad for the box.

























I am concerned with the backside of the bird. It seems very inflamed to me. If this is the normal size at this age I would like to know.
Since this image I have wiped the birds bottom.

Only one seizure this morning, and that was when I got the images of the backside. I think it was much too much for the bird. I only took the images because I was concerned.

His crop seems smaller to me but not empty. A second opinion would be appreciated.

I am planning on giving him a little water with acv and apple sauce as suggested.
I will check his beak for growths.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very glad to hear that he is still alive!

Water with added sugar and salt is used as a rehydration solution (as well as water with added honey). Unless a yeast infection is going on, it's not harmful. Probably Marina is worried about yeasts because the crop seems slow. 
ACV acidifies the contents in crop and discourages the multiplication of some bad bacteria; helps with digestion; etc.

Yes, the crop looks smaller than in the previous pics. How do his poops look like now? A pic could help us to understand if there is still "material" into his poops or if they are starvation poops.

About antibiotic/healing creams I use French products so I can't suggest you one.
Here they explain how to treat a scalped pigeon (as oral antibiotic they mention the combination of amoxicillin plus clavulanic acid. I have never used it for pigeons)



How to treat a scalped pigeon – Pigeon And Dove Rescue UK



I did not give to my pigeon Drusilla (the scalped one who had PMV) an oral antibiotic because there was no sign of infection and I know that she was pecked by other pigeons (and not attacked by predators). But it's always good to have in hand an antibiotic and other meds. Remember to pay attention to any bad smell.

Did his vent area look dirty when you wiped it? In all honesty I have never noticed how the vent area of a baby looks like. I only have experience with adults pigeons because my pigeon Londo had a cloacal prolapse... I can explain how I kept her vent area cleaned: I cleaned it with a very good disinfectant called dermidine spray (I used a cotton pad). Here is a link, you could look for something similar to it:









Dermidine - MP Labo


Dermidine - Produits et soins naturels pour le bien être et la santé animale - MP Labo Pionnier de la santé animale naturelle




www.mplabo.eu





I had to apply a cream (in my case, the vet gave me two different creams, an antibiotic one and dermaflon), if you suspect that the area is infected I think that you could apply an antibiotic cream too.

When you will check for growths remember to check even the color of the mouth. Do that very carefully and gently because it will surely be a source of stress (if possible ask for help to someone) and it's important to avoid all stressful situations.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can dab a bit of betadine on the wound to keep it moist. 

Is he pooping more regular since you cleaned the bottom? If there's too much dried up droppings affecting his pooping, then the bottom will become a bit swollen. 

You can start giving him small amounts of applesauce.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

The one on the bottom is most recent, the one on the top is from a little while ago.

Yes his vent area was dirty and it was restricting his poop. I think he was okay yesterday but all night without me changing his pad caused it. His bottom and his pad is clean now.

I have applied some Neosporin to his head as I do not have betadine. If this was a mistake I would like to know.

I gave him .4ml of water that was mixed with the correct avc ratio and a drop of a bird b12-k2 mix. He was able to swallow it without choking. Regarding applesauce, I am still worried about the crop. Seeing has his poop was constricted I am afraid to give him too much food/water.

I did buy some the organic/no sugar applesauce today so I have it on hand when he gets it worked out.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I was unable to determine if there is growth in his throat, I had his mouth open for a little but my thumb was blocking the view and he pulled back. No seizures since this morning, I am trying not to push it. I will check again in awhile


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Offered him apple sauce right now. He ate .2ml just fine. After that he didnt want any more, and I didnt force him to because the last thing I want is for him to choke. .2ml is very little. 

He has not pooped in 2 hours. This worries me. His rear is completely clean of any blockage, and I know he was able to because he pooped right after I cleaned him. Maybe he needs more time.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He has still not pooped. His vent is clean, i do not know what is wrong. I do not believe he will last the night. We will see.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You will need to get food into him. Did you manage to get the handrearing formula? Mix to the consistency of tomato ketchup. Formula needs to be warm. To this you can add some applesauce. You will need something where he can stick his beak inside to eat. A cut-off syringe works will. Also continue to keep him warm as he needs heat for the food to digest. No need for extra water. Try to feed him 10 ml for a start.

The droppings don't look too bad. One doesn't know what he got fed by the parents before you found him.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Something like this. There's a x cut into the yellow rubber, that's where he will stick his beak inside to eat.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

It was not In stock in my area, but it should be available tomorrow. Is there anything I can feed him in mean time to help?


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Also I just changed his pad, he finally pooped. I am unsure what the wait was.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Get a bag of frozen peas from your supermarket. Defrost in warm water. Remove the skins and blend them very well till a soft consistency. Add some applesauce and feed this to him. The droppings will change when this gets digested. Will be green and mushy, but that is ok.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

machandler318 said:


> Also I just changed his pad, he finally pooped. I am unsure what the wait was.


Ok, that is good. Keep him warm, otherwise food won't digest. It's probably the applesauce that you gave him.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Okay, I will get some peas. Thank you so much for your help!


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I have made the pea/apple sauce mixture you described. I put it into a nearly identical fashioned syringe.
I put his beak into the syringe. He did not put his beak in on his own. He ate a very small amount, then pulled his head back. He refused to eat it further.
Since this morning his crop looks much larger. I do not believe he would be able to keep the food down if I forced him to eat more.


I do not believe his crop is empty. But I attached some images for a second opinion.
If his crop is empty than maybe attempting to feed him is causing spasms and he is unable to eat.

Any ideas or help would be appreciated, I fear he may have a yeast infection since his crop does not appear to be empty.

The green on his pad is the food mixture, he did not want it.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I am planning on sleeping soon, it is very very late where I am. I hope he makes it through the night.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

still alive.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Is there no way you can check inside his beak? This is very important. Yeast will show as whitish plaques deep inside the throat, canker will show as cheesy yellow growths. Is there any way you can get hold of Nystatin for treating yeast? Also metronidazole for canker, just for in case you need this. In a petshop, that sells fish equipment, one can buy Fishzole (same as metronidazole).

He is definitely sick. By now he should have been so hungry and eager to eat.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

What do the droppings look like now?


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

From the pic the poops look dark (I'm watching the pics from my phone so I can't see them very well). If you have at home a bottle of hydrogen peroxide you could try to put a small amount of it on the dark droppings. When hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with catalase it "bubbles", you see a white fizzling foam. Blood contains catalase. When I need to understand if there is some blood I do this "test". Of course, It's not a scientific method but it could help you to get an idea. I'm only worried about a possible presence of blood but maybe it's just the photo. 

Last May my pigeon Londo got an infection (the vet ruled out yeasts and canker, it was a viral or a bacterial infection) and her crop literally did not work. I had to massage it several times a day, each time for about 10/15 minutes. I massaged it in a gentle way by circular movements. If the crop is slow, other than giving him some warm applesauce, you could maybe try a massage. From the pic the crop does not look flat but you gave him water and a bit of applesauce. 
As he is in a critical condition and we don't know what issues he has (other than head trauma and scalped head) only you can judge if a massage could help or if it could be more harmful than useful. In all cases, if you decide to do that you need to be careful because you do not have to push any liquid up (I mean push a liquid into the throat/mouth) because he could aspirate. Also try to gentle press at the base of the crop (where food goes into the proventriculus). 
When the crop will be empty I would start to give him a small amount of liquid formula and see if he is pooping regularly. When Londo had the infection I had to decide day by day the amount of formula, its consistency and if she needed massages. I fed her using a common 5ml syringe.

Have you noticed any bad smell coming from the mouth? Any difficulty in swallowing?

Here you can read some info about yeasts:









PetCoach - Ask a Vet Online 24/7


Veterinarians and other pet experts are standing by to answer all your health, nutrition and behavior questions! Chat live now about your dog, cat, or any other pet.




www.petcoach.co





If you buy nystatin (nystatin 100.000 Ul/ml) and decide to give it we will explain how to administer it. 

I read that you gave him vitamin k: it helps blood clotting (I rescued a pigeon poisoned by an anticoagulant rat poison...) so it could maybe help in case of internal bleeding. I think that 48 hours have now passed since you found him?

All over the years I used many different antibiotic creams but I have never used Betadine cream (only Betadine solution) nor neosporin cream. From what I read they are both antibiotic creams so I think you did not do any mistake.

Please let us know how he is doing.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

the seizures are really bad today, the moment he hears but a little noise or sees but a little light, it triggers a seizure that lasts around 5 minutes. This is very very abnormal compared to yesterday and the day before.
I have turned off the heat pad since this morning. It is not cold in the house and I dont believe it is helping.

He is *not* in a never ending seizure, but feeding him seems impossible at this point.

I will try to check his throat again, though I know it will cause a seizure.

I can attempt to massage his crop if when I check his throat it looks fine.

The water I gave him amounted for a little more than 1 ml over the course of three days
The apple sauce I gave him was only *.*2ml which is a very very small amount.
He did not eat any measurable amount of food mixture last night.

His crop should not be this full. What baffles me is is that he is still pooping, albeit irregularly.
I will check poop for blood with your stated method.

I cannot speak on his ability to swallow. Yesterday morning he could. Today I doubt it. I cant tell whether he really cannot swallow or its just seizures.

In my area antibiotics are restricted without a prescription. I have already checked my local pet stores for fish amoxicillin and they are all out without any close restock date. I will check for Fishzole if its canker, but I do not have access to Nystatin. And no, I cannot order it from any vet in my county because they refuse to treat pigeons and will not prescribe anything for them.

I will check his throat. I will upload his latest droppings because they look like starvation droppings but I am not sure. I will do a blood test on his droppings. I will check for smell. I will buy formula today so that I may have it on hand.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I tried, I really did. I was unable to get him to open his mouth long enough to see due to seizures.
I did not notice any bad smell from his mouth, his head does smell a little sweet.
I put hydrogen peroxide on some of his droppings and it did indeed fizz.

Here are his droppings before I put hydrogen peroxide on them.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm really surprised he is still alive. I think if he was bleeding on the inside, he would have died already. What happens when he has these seizures? Does he fall to the front and convulse while flapping the wings?

Will you be able to get very small baby peas to handfeed to him? Otherwise when you get the formula, mix with a little bit of water to form a soft clay. Then make small balls and feed to him. Just make sure you are putting the balls over his tongue into the back of the throat. He will need to drink water when you are feeding the balls as this makes them very thirsty. This way of handfeeding might be easier than using a syringe.

Just be firm. Put him on your lap against your body. Have a firm grip on his beak when you open it. He won't last much longer if he is not getting fed.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He convulses while stretching his neck in random directions. 

I already have peas. I will attempt to feed him then. I will also attempt to check his throat again. I am worried of crop overflow since it does not seem to be emptying, but if it is vital I will try. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

First check inside his beak and back of the throat. Sounds as if there's something irritating him down there.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I still havent been able to open his beak. I do not quite understand. I have done everything correctly that I have read. his beak will not open fully enough for me to see or feed him.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Is he drinking water when you dip his beak into a bowl?


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

no he is not


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He won't survive for much longer if you can't get food into him. Even an adult can't survive for longer than 3 days without food. Try to wedge a fingernail inbetween the upper and lower beak and then grab the lower beak and push it down so that the beak opens.

Problem is, if he has canker growths inside the throat and you feed him solid food this can cause bleeding. Only alternative will be to use a 1 ml syringe and feed him formula. If you can get the syringe past his breathing hole he won't aspirate. Little bits at a time.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I managed to get him to eat 4-6 peas. I hope this enough for now, I hope he does not have canker. I do not have formula, I hope he lives.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's ok for now. When that gets digested (there will be a change in the droppings) try to feed 8 more.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He is still alive!
In a hour when the store opens I will get formula.

he has made two droppings since last night which I assume are the peas.

He seems to be a in seizure for 30 minutes now. Not as bad as a seizure but he is crying and slightly convulsing. He was fine all night until now. I am unaware as of the cause. I hope he makes it.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Just do your best for the little one. Hopefully the vitamins in the formula will make a difference.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I fed him 1 ml by putting the syringe in his mouth like you said. He seemed very active so I was curious. I filled the larger syringe with the cloth on the end with formula. I put his mouth in the cloth.

He ate the whole thing on his own!

He is doing much better than yesterday. I don’t think he was having a seizure this morning I believe he was just hungry as when I finished feeding him his crying became less severe.

all in all I fed him 14ml of formula when I was finished. He still wanted more but I don’t know how much he is supposed to eat. If 14ml is too little please let me know.

I tried to check his throat again. His beak is so tiny, my hands are too large. I can now easily get him to open his beak, but not open enough for me to see anything. If there is a easier way please let me know.

thank you so much for your help!


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very glad to hear that he ate 14 ml of formula! That's a good thing! For the moment I would wait and see if he is pooping regularly. If everything seems ok with his crop and poops you can start to feed him more. 
If he ate without problems in swallowing probably there are no growths. Could you ask for help to somebody? It would be easier to check his mouth/throat in two persons. 

I said that I was worried about a bleeding and suggested that test because I was thinking about a bleeding in the gastrointestinal tract not about internal injuries related to the fall (usually, if the bird is still alive after 48 hours, it's possible to rule them out). That could be originated by many different factors like bacterial or viral infection, a bleeding canker abscess in the stomach, cancer, ulcers, etc etc. I remember that I read in old threads even about dried blood in the gi tract related to worms or coccidia.

Try to give a look at this link, maybe you could find an avian vet in your area available to help pigeons:






Recommended Vets in the United States


DISCLAIMER: These listings were compiled as a general resource, but we recommend that you research the vets and call the offices with questions before




www.beautyofbirds.com





Also if you are on Facebook you could join that international group, someone could maybe suggest you a clinic or help you in getting meds:





__





Find Us On Facebook – Pigeon And Dove Rescue UK






www.pigeonrescue.sirtobyservices.com






About medications:
Spartrix (carnidazole) is available there? Do you need a prescription for buying it? It's very safe for birds, a tablet won't hurt him even if he does not have canker. Metrodinazole is a strong med which could have side effects, I think that in his delicate condition spartrix would be a better option.
Nystatin is for humans, if you are in good relationships with your family doctor you could maybe try to ask for a prescription to him?

Anyway, I feel more hopeful!


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I was unaware there were vets near me that treated pigeons. They aren’t close but they are not as far as I thought.

I will attempt to check his throat again with help.
I will check for spartrix. I will also check with my doctor for nystatin.

thank you for your help, I am also feeling very hopeful


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks to you for what you are doing for him! 

Let us know how he is doing.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So glad to hear he is doing better. If he is eager to be fed, he is probably healthy. You will notice a change in the droppings when the formula is getting digested. You can continue to add applesauce to his formula once a day. If he is digesting properly, aim to feed him 3 times a day. 20 ml each meal. His crop should be completely empty in the morning.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He has made more droppings like yesterday. I just finished feeding him 20ml. I imagine the droppings would have changed by now?
He is very eager to eat and when I finished feeding him he nuzzles my hand for more but I am afraid to over feed him.

I can hear him chirping every now and then but I dont quite know what he wants.
He seems to be completely able to eat and look/move around but his muscle spasms are very sparodic and give me mixed impressions. Not seizures but spasms. However from what you linked me earlier this is normal. 

I have a friend coming by later on today to help me get a view of his throat. 

As for, spartrix, it seems to be perfectly fine to purchase here but no one locally sells it and online seems to have a week of shipping time. My doctor would not prescribe nystatin. 

However he seems to be able to swallow perfectly fine. I hope I will not need them. If his situation declines rapidly I will try to take him to a vet but due to distance/financial strain I am trying to avoid this. 

Thanks again


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Just thought id give some pictures because I havent in awhile.

For the first image, I am sorry for the angle it makes his eye look closed but it isnt. Also he got food on his face that I have since cleaned.
The shiny is some Neosporin. Its seems to be healing quite nice underneath.
His poop has changed color, I dont know if you can tell by the lighting but it has become less green..

He did not have a seizure while taking this photos!
He seems to react significantly better to light!

He has only pooped twice since I fed him this afternoon. Because of this I only fed him 12ish ml at dinner. His crop wasnt empty from lunch but I feel I must feed him three times a day.

I was afraid I overfed him. From my understanding if you push on the crop and a pigeon is overfed he will throw some up. I pushed on his crop and he had no reaction. He also did not refuse dinner by any means.

He seems to be doing alot better today, other than waiting awhile to poop!
Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Did you put him back on the heatpad? The droppings are still not what it should be. I think 20 ml 3 times a day will be ok for now, depending on how quickly the crop empties. 

It's normal for them to be noisy, that is a good sign. I'm including a photo of what a dropping should be like when getting fed formula.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Yeah. . . they do not look like that. If any change occurs in droppings I will let you know. Is the current condition of droppings serious? Is there anything I can do?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Hopefully they will change with proper feeding. Instead of adding applesauce, you can add a drop of apple cider vinegar (the one with the "mother") to his formula. Most important now will be to make sure his food is digesting and the crop should empty completely overnight.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

From what you said (reacting better to light, having appetite, etc.) it seems that little by little he is recovering from the head trauma (recovery can take a few days or even a long period, it depends on the severity of the the trauma). That's good.
Even the wound on his head seems healing well. 

Does the formula contain probiotics? If not, you could look for bird probiotics and add them to the formula. I use a very good product but it's French so surely it is not available there. Just to get you an idea here you can see its composition:









8.95? - Oceproven VIRBAC - Véto Products


OCEPROVEN VIRBAC is a food supplement to maintain the balance of the intestinal flora of the cage bird. Products-veto.com




www.produits-veto.com





Oropharma Versele Laga is a good brand and I think you can find it there. In any case you can ask for an advice at the pet shop (here birds products are available even in some garden centers, agricultural supply stores and do-it-yourself stores). 
Stress and many other factors could cause an intestinal flora disorder (surely he is living a very stressful experience!) and so digestive disorders. 

If you go to the pet shop give a look at plant based supplements (if they have them), recently I found very good ones. One of them (the one containing artichokes and other plants) made wonders when Londo got the infection. 

About the peroxide hydrogen reaction, I was thinking that maybe he simply swallowed a bit of blood after the fall, maybe he hit his beak and a small capillary got broken. 

Anyway, you are doing an excellent job! Let us know how he is doing.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He is still alive and doing well from what I can tell.
His crop emptied and he made more droppings, however they still look like yesterday’s. I fed him 23ml of formula this morning.

I will add avc to formula.
From my understanding the formula had probiotics but I will still check for Oropharma Versele Laga.

wrote this morning, I thought I posted but I guess not. Luckily the text box saved the post.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I fed him around 20ml a moment ago. More of the same kind of droppings but he seems to be digesting just fine.

There is no Oropharma Versele Laga locally where I am. 
Also I havent found any supplements for birds. 

Checked his throat finally and did not see any growths. I am planning to check again to be sure. 
He seems to be doing good.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I had to run a errand today. Came home and checked on him. He had managed to jump off the shelf I was keeping him and his box on. He was waddling around my room. I fed him 20ml and tucked him in his box. I have moved his box to the floor so he doesnt make a habit of falling.

I checked his throat again in better lighting, and I can say with a certainty that there is nothing growing in it.

From my understanding his pooping is infrequent. He poops every 2-3 hours. His crop seems to be emptying on time though so I dont quite know whats wrong.

Here is his dropping. Color seems to be the same, but it is much more formed and less runny than droppings of the past.

Thanks again for all your help. I didnt know baby pigeons could be so active!


----------



## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

machandler318 said:


> Update: Seems to have spasms every once in awhile and breathing is getting heavy. Less hopeful. Still alert in between spasms though.
> 
> Also reading that I probably should not have given a pigeon with head trauma heat. If someone could elaborate I would appreciate it.


It looks very oozing from head. Looks like you need to get some stitches in that head and clean wound. Wipe wound if you haven't already. Anybody near you-bird rehabbed? I've dealt with serious bird issues this week also. It's awful because I'm telling you, these babes are so sharp and smart.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Dropping looks better than before, although the urates should be white and not yellow. The problem is they can have canker inside the crop and the only way to confirm this will be to have a cropsmear done by an avian vet.

Seems to me he is doing much better. So just continue as you are doing now.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

*FITANDCHIC *The post you are quoting is from four days ago.
The wound was wiped. There is nothing to stitch as the wound has healed since.

There is no one in my area, I already checked on palomacy and another one on facebook. My specific town is not pigeon friendly as the vet refuses to treat them but the town over has a vet that may help.

His situation is stable right now. If his situation declines or poop doesnt clear up I will take him there. As for trauma he is doing quite well and seizures have stopped.

*Marina B *wouldnt he have trouble swallowing if it was canker?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If the canker is in the throat, then they have trouble swallowing. Yeast in the throat also cause them to have problems with swallowing. Canker in the crop affects the liver, and one of the symptoms is yellow urates. But I guess there are other issues that can also affect the urates. So one should rather focus on his overall behaviour. If he is keen on getting fed and the food digests well, then no need for concern at this stage.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Thank you for clarifying. 
Though his digestion is getting better I dont think it is quite normal, I will investigate my options further on obtaining spartrix in order to minimize future issues.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

That's great, being so active is a good sign! It seems that he is recovering well from the head trauma!
Also having a good appetite is a good sign, normally a sick bird looks passive and does not have appetite.
Hopefully his poops will improve soon. Probiotics contained in his formula should help him.

What baby bird formula are you using? Here there are many bird formulas which look yellow in color. I attach a pic of Aurora and her brother when were babies: they were perfectly healthy (I adopted them from my vet) but, as you can see on the shelf, the urates looked yellow.
I'm going to copy a passage of an article about droppings interpretation (see the attachment):
"If the feces are colored by the color of
food items, this color can leach out into the urates, and
does not indicate a problem".

Let us know how he is doing.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I have katyee handraising formula. 
He is doing good. He seems to be pretty active. I am going to feed him lunch soon. 
He ate around 25ml this morning.

Thank you for telling me Colombina.


----------



## Pigeonsonbalcony (Aug 13, 2021)

Hi 

Is there any way you could take him to the vet? The head trauma looks a bit like he's been pecked by a predator bird.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

His latest dropping.

*Pigeonsonbalcony *a image of him to stop confusion
It is difficult to tell the wound even happened except for small scabbing and the patch of missing fuzz.
His wound was cleaned when it occured and I believe it has healed.

I do not have ready access to a vet. I am willing to make the trip if his condition worsens, but I have seen nothing but recovery since I got him.

As for the possibility of canker, I have located a shop that has some supplies. They do not have Spartrix but they have Metronidazole 20% and a all-in-one that contains the following

Norfloxacin
Ronidazole
Diclazuril
Doxycycline

If one would have less side affects or be more effective than the other, I would like to know. If both are severe and I should not worry about medication, please tell me.

Thank you


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The all in 1 is no good as this does not contain enough of a specific meds for treatment. Rather get the metronidazole to have ready if you need to give. The droppings look better.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I have never used Kaytee exact but I checked for it online and I saw that it looks yellowish so I think that this is the reason for yellow urates. The poop in the pic looks better, there is a bigger amount of brown "material" 😁! Probably the digestive enzymes contained in the formula are helping him!

I read here on PT that all-in-one are not a good option.
Here you can read some info about metrodinazole (how it works, side effects, toxicity, etc):









PetCoach - Ask a Vet Online 24/7


Veterinarians and other pet experts are standing by to answer all your health, nutrition and behavior questions! Chat live now about your dog, cat, or any other pet.




www.petcoach.co


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I read about metrodinazole. I bought some and have it on hand in case it becomes vital. Also ordered some spartrix which will be here by tuesday.

Thanks again for the help, I think he will live long.

He seems to be doing quite well. I gave him a bath today because he is very dirty. Low shallow warm water.
Put a very light soap on him and rinsed it off.
He is in a towel and his heat pad is on medium instead of low for a little bit until I am certain he has warmed up. Although I dont think he ever got cold.

Here are his latest droppings. They seem to be getting less yellow.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You are doing great!


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks to you for caring about him! You really saved his life!


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi! How is the little guy doing?


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He is doing good. Gave him spartrix a couple days ago. I dont think he had canker. He seems to be healthy.
He is growing, I will post a image of him later on today.

The only thing I am concerned about is his inability to walk or really balance himself. When he wants to move he drags himself and kicks with his feet. He doesnt seem to be able to balance. I am unsure if it is neurological damage or fledglings simply are unable to do this.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update.

That could be maybe related to the head trauma. My blind pigeon Geordi had a stupid but dangerous accident (he fell on the floor from my dad's hands....), recovery took a long time... The vet prescribed him some tablets called candilat (papaverine and vincamine), they were very helpful.

A few questions:

do the legs and feet look ok?
what are you feeding him now?
How old is he now?


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Someone said he looked about a week old when I got him. its been 19 days since then, so maybe 3-4 weeks old?

I am still feeding him kaytee extract about three times a day.

I am still keeping him in his little box. If I should put him in a bird cage please let me know. I understand he feels secure and safe in his box and with him not being able to really walk I am unsure wether to put him in a cage or not.

I believe the feet look okay. He isnt able to stand from what I can see. He acts somewhat paralyzed, but he is not. He is still able to move his leg and wring just fine when needed.

Attached is a video of my supporting him. When I stop supporting him he falls.



http://imgur.com/a/M76haHY


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Agree, for the moment the best thing is keeping him in his little box. 

As I said in a previous post I have never used Kaytee exact but I think that it contains a wide range of vitamins, minerals (calcium, etc) and so on? 
Have you started to offer him seeds? When you take him out of his box you can put in front of him a small bowl or a small deep container (like the one in the pic) filled with a large variety of seeds of different sizes and shapes (dove or pigeon mixture and canary seeds with dehydrated fruits) and dried legumes (the ones for humans that you can buy at supermarket like small lentils, mung beans and split peas). Put your finger between the seeds and start to tap it between them (try to "imitate" a bird who is pecking at seeds). If there is enough space and you think it's safe you can leave available a seed bowl or container or small plant pot saucer into his box. If he starts to eat seeds on his own you can gradually reduce the formula. Have you found a complete vitamin supplement (vitamins, amino acids and trace elements)? 
Let's see if there will be any improvement in his balance issues with a different diet and a good vitamin supplement (in case it's a deficiency... ). 

As I said earlier the problem could be simply related to the head trauma. Geordi took a long time to recover (he could not stand, walk, etc) and I had to keep him into a small box with a cushion (not too firm nor too soft). The tablets given by the vet helped him a lot. 

The injury on his head healed very well.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He does not seem to drink water or eat seeds on his own even if I attempt to guide him. He still eats out of the syringe.
I tried to move him a cage for a day but when it became apparent that all he did was sit in the corner and not eat/drink I moved him back to his box.

His food has label that says not to add probiotics on top of the food because it already contains probiotics. It does contain numerous vitamins so I do not believe it is a deficiency.

He seems to want to lean his neck at a angle constantly. He also acts paralyzed on his lower body. However at times he is able to move his neck and move his legs just fine rarely. I do not quite understand and believe it is neurological.

I will search for candilat.

Thanks again.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He is looking great except for the balancing issues. Is he flapping his wings? I saw on a FB group (will search and find the photo) someone made sort of a wheelchair for a pigeon with leg issues. So the legs hanging down and touching the ground so that he can move around while the body gets supported. This will help strengthen the legs. 

Are you giving calcium with added Vit D3?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Try building him this. At least he will be able to move around without your help.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

In all honesty I think too that the issues are related to the fall and to head trauma because I experienced that with Geordi. Geordi fell like a stone from my dad's hands because he is blind, your little guy because was a very little baby... 
I was considering the other options (deficiency, etc) just in case... 

Anyway, based on my own experience with Geordi for the moment I would keep him into his box and I would stress him as less as possible. He needs a calm and peaceful environment and rest. 

I don't know if candilat (papaverine and vincamine) is available in USA, I got it from my French vet. In case you find it I will give you instructions.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He does flap his wings.

I will attempt to build him a wheelchair sometime this week.

Upon further inspection this morning it seems to be primarily his left leg. It seems to have much less grip strength than his right leg and he does not like it moved. It may have been broken in the fall and healed without having the bones properly set. Or it may be neurological I don't quite know. 

candilat is not available here. I do not believe I can even have it shipped.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

As I said I think too that the issues (neurological or/and physical) are somehow related to the fall. This is why I asked even about his legs and feet.
Fortunately Geordi did not break his bones in the fall...

Some months ago we rescued a pigeon attacked by a predator who also had a broken leg. The leg looked like a "rubber dead leg", it was hanging down. Have you noticed something similar in the last weeks? We have experience only with adult pigeons, maybe in babies is more complicated to notice that.
You could try this test but probably you have already tried it:

-take your bird and gently turn him upside down;

- put your finger in the centre of the sole of the foot and exert a light pressure.

This way you can understand his grip strength.
Only a vet could tell if the leg got broken or if the pelvis got fractured/cracked, etc.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I do think its neurological. I tested his grip strength and it is weaker in the left leg but still existent. He does not use it when he doesnt have to but he can. 
This morning he pooped green mixed with white. This afternoon I fed him at the usual time and noticed his crop was still pretty full from breakfeast. Unsure what this means but I put him in his box for the time being so he can have heat. 
Worked on a wheelchair but havent finished it. I have been letting him roam the room in a attempt to encourage him to walk. He drags himself around but at least he is trying to use his left leg now. Still cant stand on his own.

Neurological issues are really starting to leak in. Constant spazzing of certain limbs or head when stressed (he is fine most of the time). He never stops eating (I dont know if this is normal) I have to gauge his food.
He still cannot drink or eat on his own. I can get him to drink on his own if I dont feed him for awhile and leave him by his bowl but he will only take one sip and then wait. He refuses to eat bird seed ON HIS OWN. If I hold his beak he will eat it. I think at his age he should be eating on his own but I am unsure. 
Still feeding him.
Will update when I get the wheelchair finished.
He seems to be getting a little better with his leg but this mornings green poo and him not being able to eat on his own concern me.
Thanks again.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've read lack of calcium can also cause neurological issues. If the crop is slow, add some human baby applesauce to his formula. This will help speed up digestion.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I will add a calcium supplement in case this is true. Poop returned to normal color and crop is working fine. I dont know what caused it yesterday but he is doing better now. 
Overall he is fine most of the time but it is apparent he has issues when stressed
Do you have any idea why he wont eat or drink on his own at 6-7 weeks old? 

Will post when wheelchair is finished, thank you for the calcium tip.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Have you tried weaning him? Put a dish of small seeds in front of him and "play" with the seeds by using your fingers. Do the same with a small bowl of water. Feed in the morning as usual, then offer the seed around lunchtime and spend some time with him. He should be pecking at seeds. Try finch seed and add a wildbird seed mixture to this.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

I will try weaning him. I was unaware it was a persistent manner.


----------



## Rogersthepigeon11 (Sep 30, 2021)

Yes, baby pigeons backsides are about that size but you should clean off the poop on the butt or that may lead to problems


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

machandler318 said:


> I will add a calcium supplement in case this is true. Poop returned to normal color and crop is working fine. I dont know what caused it yesterday but he is doing better now.
> Overall he is fine most of the time but it is apparent he has issues when stressed
> Do you have any idea why he wont eat or drink on his own at 6-7 weeks old?
> 
> Will post when wheelchair is finished, thank you for the calcium tip.





Colombina said:


> Agree, for the moment the best thing is keeping him in his little box.
> 
> As I said in a previous post I have never used Kaytee exact but I think that it contains a wide range of vitamins, minerals (calcium, etc) and so on?
> Have you started to offer him seeds? When you take him out of his box you can put in front of him a small bowl or a small deep container (like the one in the pic) filled with a large variety of seeds of different sizes and shapes (dove or pigeon mixture and canary seeds with dehydrated fruits) and dried legumes (the ones for humans that you can buy at supermarket like small lentils, mung beans and split peas). Put your finger between the seeds and start to tap it between them (try to "imitate" a bird who is pecking at seeds). If there is enough space and you think it's safe you can leave available a seed bowl or container or small plant pot saucer into his box. If he starts to eat seeds on his own you can gradually reduce the formula. Have you found a complete vitamin supplement (vitamins, amino acids and trace elements)?
> ...


Before adding a new calcium supplement check well the Kaytee exact ingredients. From what you said it contains vitamins (have you read which ones?), minerals (I suppose even calcium), probiotics, etc. In theory it should be well balanced (I have never used it). Excessive calcium is not good (as well as calcium deficiency) and could lead to different issues.

Each baby learns to eat on his own at a different moment. I remember that Hastings "Ciccio" started to eat earlier than his sister Aurora. If he still has some neurological issues related to the head trauma it could even take longer. Try to offer him seeds and to stimulate him as I explained in the post n. 85 (I posted it again). Be patient and give him time.
When he will start to eat seeds you will have to regularly give him a complete vitamin supplement, calcium and probiotics.

If the symptoms get worse when he is stressed I would stress him as less as possible. When Geordi had the head trauma we kept him into a small box and gave him complete rest as suggested even by the vet.

Keep us updated. You are doing a great job with him!


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Hes been doing fine. (he is alive) 
Had personal problems that procrastinated a wheelchair and weening... and alot of interaction besides feeding. I feel like I have neglected him but he is alive and well and I had some important issues that I could not ignore.
its been two weeks ive attempted to ween him and I have had no response. He is still eager to eat out of his syringe and wont touch seeds.
His poop was green today, normally its been the color of his food. Dark green no white or anything just dark green watery. He still seems pretty active not sick or lethargic. I hope its just stress. Will update if poop stays the same.

Will post pictures of him soon. Revisiting this thread makes me sad I raised him as a baby but I feel like I have neglected him lately. Ill try to revisit his wheelchair. I hope I can help him live a normal life but It feels a little hopeless at this point. He still cannot stand on his own. It is apparent his left leg is barely used.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very sorry to hear about your serious problems, I hope everything is ok now. 

You could try to offer him a bit of biscuit (something simple without chocolate, marmalade, etc). Usually birds love it. You could try to hand feed him a few small pieces (be careful to powder, avoid to give it to him) and then crumble another small piece with your fingers and leave it available. Pigeons have a sweet tooth, it could stimulate him to start pecking at foods on his own.

If you haven't tried that yet you could also buy a mixture for canary containing dehydrated colored fruits. Pigeons are attracted by colors, leave available a bowl containing only canary mixture. If he starts to eat that (or crumbled buscuit) on his own little by little he will start to eat even seeds.
Hopefully he is just slower than other pigeons, give him time and be patient. Each baby learns to eat on his own at a different moment. 

The problem could be even related to the head trauma. 

As he still has problems at his leg and can't stand on his own, food must be easily accessible for him.
As I can't see your bird I can't decide what is the best solution but I could suggest, just for example, a deep container. If you remember, earlier I suggested a container and posted a photo but maybe it would be better to use something bigger and heavier than the one in the pic. Of course, you have to be sure that it is something stable and not dangerous (because of your bird balance issues).
Another option could be a plant pot saucer with low edges: he could easily enter inside it and eat sitting between the seeds. 
Try to find the best solution "without architectural barriers". 

Keep us updated. 


Yes, stress could cause intestinal flora disorder.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi, how is your bird doing? Any improvement? 
Has he started to eat on his own? I hope he is doing well. 

I also hope you fixed all your issues.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

He died on January 15th, in his sleep. I am unsure what happened to him. Fed him as usual, put him to bed and when I woke up he was dead. I am happy I was able to make his life longer than it wouldve been. He died peacefully from what I could tell. He had alot of issues and I am glad he was able to live as long as he did. I am sorry I did not post when he died, I have him a small burial post mortis and then tried to forget about it.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear about that sad news.

No need to apologize. I'm sorry for reminding you of him, I didn't want to sadden you. 

I remember that he had many issues. Thanks to your great help he was able to live as long as he could. You should be proud of yourself. I'm sure he appreciated the time you gave him.

A big hug.


----------



## machandler318 (Jul 12, 2020)

Thank you for your condolences. Thanks again for your help.


----------

