# Unable to walk....



## Niel (May 25, 2005)

I wonder whether anyone can offer me a bit of advice with a rather odd problem.

A friend and I go out catching ferals to detangle their feet etc, pick up babies which have fallen from nest etc and between us we’re familiar with most of the common problems they can experience. 

However, we have had three young birds (4-6 months) in the space of a few weeks, from different areas, with the same problem which I’ll try to describe. Any ideas as to what is wrong and how best to treat it would be very welcome.

All the birds were found lying on their sides, unable to stand. They had no use of their legs at all and the legs were just bone – next to no muscle at all. They don’t eat much (whether this is because they are off their food or just because it’s too awkward to eat we don’t know. They close their eyes quite a lot and keep flicking their tails!!

The first one, after a couple of weeks, is now standing and walking a little, with difficulty.

Any ideas…?

Thanks

Niel


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Definitely isolate these youngsters if you haven't. Sounds like they are malnourished as well as dehydrated. I'm sure you are doing all you can to increase their uptake of nutrients. I would especially get them on good gut bacteria, if you haven't. Use the human grade and mix it with their seed with wheat germ oil. Garlic capsules will help clean the blood stream.

How does their poop look?

I'm not even going to try to guess, could be numerous things, even like it may be Salmonella, as it can have crippling effects on pigeons, especially the young. Any other symptoms? Any chance of getting them to a rehabber?

Treesa


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Niel,

First, you and your friend are doing a great job.

As well as Treesa's suggestions, I'd add that it could be due at least in part to severe calcium deficiency from a poor diet as squabs which has kind of caught up with them. Many ferals suffer from such as rickets. Certainly no harm in giving them a good liquid calcium supplement, unless any treatment they may receive disallows it. 

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Niel,


Yahhhhh...starvation will also invite any number of opportunistic bacteria or germs to then make them ill in other ways on top of it...

Feed them liberally, and watch for signs of illness...

I have seen certainly severely emaciated youngsters sometimes, and often they have given up, are apathetic initially, and need to be fed by hand for a while. My old method was to pop Seeds into ther Beaks, and, to try and inspire them to drink with my dribbleing Liquids onto the side ofthe Beak, or, to insert their Beak gently into a small cup of tepid Liquid. 

Now, I feed them with nutritous thickish 'Soups' made of ground Seeds and other nutrients ( such as LeFaber's or Kaytee Powders or Lorribush powder for Baby Birds, some pro-biotics, powdered 'Super Greens' a little Olive Oil...) , via a soft catheter on a Syringe...their "right" side of the Throat, or, if one is facing them, one's left, is the opening which leads down to their Crop...the soft thin Catheter must go down well into their Crop, and, of course, the 'Soup' as it were, is kindest if tepid...this is critical, as, if any liquid is intoduced to the vicinity of their trachea, they can get into their Air Sacs and drown before one's eyes.

Likely, as others mentions above, dehydration is also at play...

Trichomoniasis is very common here, and is almost always seen in any emaciated Pigeon or Dove regardless of age, as, whether or not they had it bothering them to begin with, it will take advantage of their weakened condition to overtake them as an illness in itself. It is easy to treat and cure.

Keep them 'warm' of course...

Good work there Niel..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

Hi

Thanks for all the advice, which is appreciated.

Treesa - their poop looks normal and there are no other symptoms. We will be getting them to a sanctuary but unfortunately (as it's 200 miles away) not for another week. They seem stable so far. I'm not sure where to get this "gut bacteria" but will investigate today. They are isolated. Someone yesterday suggested a strain PMV but I've never seen that cause symptoms anything like those which these birds are suffering.

John - This sounds quite feasible and they're now getting extra calcium - fingers crossed this will help; it certainly can't do any harm!

Phil - thanks for this. They are all now eating, they just find it difficult doing to while laying on their sides! there are several other squabs which are having to be hand-fed with "soup" as you describe though. As you say they invariably have Trichomoniasis but Flagil and Spartex takes care of that - my friend has had about 30 such cases in recent weeks and all but one, which was too far gone, have made it.

Thanks again - will post an update in a couple of days,

Niel


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Niel!

Thanks so much for helping these youngsters!

You can get human grade pro-biotics for good gut bacteria at any health food store. Pro-biotics will bolster their immune system by aiding in uptake of nutrients in the gut as well as fight off any bad baceria in the gut. Youngsters lack this crucial beneficial bacteria especially when faced with health issues. The powder form can be mixed with the formula you give them, or for those eating seeds, you can get it to stick to the seed with a little wheat germ oil. 

Treesa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Niel, 

I'm thinking a pathogenic origin. In the pigeon, the sciatic nerve runs through the kidneys and so if pressure, swelling or a pathogen affects the kidneys (PMV can, by the way) as to cause local swelling (you can't tell, though) then weakness or paralysis of the legs can occur. Generally, with those strains of PMV, there is pronounced water intake and the resultant wet poop so that may not be the case here.

Paratyphoid can cause essentially the same symptoms. As only time, shelter, food and water can help PMV, I'd treat for paratyphoid besides following the nutritional advice already given. It has been said that a 10-day course of Baytril has been found to solve the chronic carriers of paratyphoid but you may be looking at the more acute form (if that's what it is, can't be certain without tests). At least Baytril is a "gentle" antibiotic and pigeons (grown ones, anyway) tolerate long-term use of it quite well. And it can also solve a poop-load of other diseases as well. 

Another helpful item sometimes, is Levamisole. It started out as a wormer, but it has been found to actually boost the immune system as well in all animals, including us. It's even used for oncological treatments for people. It is generally used in the water, but it tastes bad and pigeons REALLY don't like to drink it. They will often refuse to drink for a couple of days to avoid drinking it, therefore, it works best when you're tube feeding them anyway. Of course, if they've got any roundworms, out they'll go as well!

Have you noticed whether they all tend to lay on the same side, or some on their left and the others on their right? A long time ago, I had a young pigeon that the parents gave up feeding because he was sliding towards a coma. We brought him in the house and began treatments. His entire left side underdeveloped--even the feathers came in later. He also tended to push out with one of his legs all the time which put him constantly on his side (not splay-legged). 

His therapy took a long time. It's a real long story. After that, I have noticed that often even in coccidiosis, one side is usually stronger than the other (one wing will droop more than the other).

I get a lot of sick birds and I got to hating the guesswork so much that I purchased a lab-grade microscope and learned to do fecals, etc. I wouldn't do it any other way anymore. Actually, the hard part of that is finding pictures of disease organisms and lab techniques for isolating them for microscopy to compare with what you're looking at in your scope. Now, THAT'S work. But if you're going to make a lifelong hobby of rehabbing sick wildlife, it actually does pay off.

But for most of us most of the time, just giving the patient a quiet, warm and safe place to rest for as much time is required with plain ole' good food and clean water is all that it takes. That's just about all that most of us can afford.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,

Are you medicating them w/anything, or just r&r??


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Niel,

If you suspect any kind of nervous system disorder, I would try Bellodonna, a homepathic remedy, that has been used successfully with pigeons and all birds for PMV and Paratyphiod symptoms. It won't give youngsters any side effects and will work with the other natural remedies. 

I would never dose with anything else on a youngster, especially if it is undiagnosed.

Treesa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,


Wow..inspireing post!

I too recently obtained a very decent Microscope, 1000 power tops, settings for 10 power and up. Got a bunch of new blank slides...

Now, I also aspire to learn to identify pathogens from fecal or other samples.

Can you give me some initial pointers or encouragements?

Any particular Books you could recommend? 

Internet reference sites?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feralpigeon,

I'm not sure whether your post was directed at me or Niel. I medicate when it's necessary. I usually perform lab work to determine that because I hate, and I Hate, and I HATE "flying blind" on medications. Refer to a discussion thread in progress about pigeons dying. I think it's under General Discussions. Click on one of the "pidgey" deals to find all the threads that I'm in (shouldn't take much--I'm still a squab!) and read about that poor lady's problem with Panacur. Follow the link that I provided and read that webpage. Medications are wonderful when done correctly and horrible when not.

Phil,

It would be wonderful if there were a properly designed website for our purposes with respect to the microscope, but there isn't. Generally, they're oriented to the microscope itself, lab techniques or parasitology. By and large, we're only usually looking for a very few things. I can and will give you a pretty good answer how to use a microscope for pigeons (and some other birds), but it's going to take me awhile to write it and it might as well be its own post/thread/discussion because it's going to take a fair amount of writing (especially the way I write, sorry!).

pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I look forward to your thread, Pidgey. I have also got my heart set on a microscope and hope eventually to be able to use it properly.

Phil, I have a little book called "Problem droppings explained" by F D W Harper, and it has photos of what coccidia oocysts, capillaria eggs, ascarid eggs, hexamita, trichomonas etc would look like under the microscope. 


Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Pidge,

I was asking Neil because I was curious about what produced the results he 
described. Seems like he took up JD's suggestion about the calcium, was wondering what else contributed to the recovery.

I've read the thread & link you're referring to, and both are tragic. It is unfortunate also, that someone goes the extra mile to bring a bird to an avian vet, and is
rewarded w/overmedicating prescriptions, no diagnosis, or wrong info. What to do? 

I'm also looking forward to your thread on microscopes and fecal floats, and like Cynthia, have my heart set on one day having a microscope so I can look as needed @ home.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

All,

Well, I'm finally not a squab anymore!

Okay, I started the thread--it's USE OF A MICROSCOPE FOR PIGEON HEALTH under General Discussions. It's fairly long-winded so far and only deals with the float technique for coccidia and worms. Believe me, it's ONLY the beginning and it's rough.

But, I should like to point out for those of you who don't have microscopes that it is possible to use a kid's microscope for these parasites. It's tougher, but it's possible. And almost everyone either has one of these stored in the attic or knows someone who does. Thrift stores can be nice, too. Yard sales. Just keep your eyes open and ask people. It's always worth a try.

Pidgey


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

Hi all,

Firstly, many thanks for al the advice, it's great to see so many caring about pigeons when in everyday life they seem to be treated with contempt by so many people.

The good news - of the three pigeons, the first to be found is now not only walking but starting to fly. The "middle" one is progressing at around the same rate as the first one did and so there's every reason for optimism. The third one - and the one in the worst state, is also progressing - it can now manouver itself around the floor which means it can now get to its water rather than having to have its beak dipped in it every hour or so!  

As for medication, no, other than a calcium supplement as suggested in this thread and a generally calcium rich diet. I'm still trying to source pro-biotics which will be added ASAP. Other than that it's just warmth and quiet which so often seems to be the best medicine! The latest canker-babies are doing well and a shocking looking bird picked up 2 days ago following an apparent fight with a cat (or possibly a lion judging by the state of him!) is undergoing surgery today to put skin back over his exposed skull...his other wounds are healing great.

Again, thanks to all - and sorry for the delay in updating you; I have limited computer access at internet cafes. All the best,

Niel


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Niel, 


Glad to hear of the happy progress of the Squablets..!

Very nice...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Niel,

The best pro-biotics for pigeons are the ones used for people.

When you have a moment check this website for a pro-biotics I have used it on 4 day old baby that worked great, called Total Flora Support. Go into nutrition products, and click on Total Flora Support

You can pull the capsule appart and put it in their seed, wetting it down with wheat germ oil or mix a little of it in the bird formula. This is just an example of a good one, you can find something similar at any health food store.

http://infinity2.com/product/index.asp

Treesa


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

Hi Treesa and all,

Just to let you know that the birds have been on the probiotics for a few days now, along with the calcium etc, and are off to a sanctuary this afternoon (along with another 7, on a train - should be fun!!) The first one to arrive seems almost back to normal, the "miidle" one can stand by flapping his wings to take the weight of his legs and the other is becoming much more mobile - I'm sure they are all well and truly out of danger.

Cheers, Niel


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Niel,

Thank you for your update, and God bless you for your wonderful work!


Treesa


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