# Does khaki affect pied markings



## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi,

Fiinally I have some youngsters with my nun pigeons and already a strange thing. One chick looks normal with brown markings. The other looks like a diluted form of that (khaki?) but it looks like the white/pied markings are extended over the edges with this one. As if the pied genes would cooperate with the dilute factor.
I haven't seen any khaki pied pigeons. Could my observation be valid?

Thanks in advance... 

Henk


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Maybe it is not a khaki but a brown that lost the spread.
No answers?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> Maybe it is not a khaki but a brown that lost the spread.
> No answers?


If you had some photos it might help 

I would not expect the dilute gene to have an effect on pied markings - more likely to be the vagaries of the mysterious pied gene/s.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

OK, will make photos.

Anyone ever saw (recessive) red or yellow nuns?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

mother:









the khaki suspect:









siblings:









khaki front view:









more: http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/Henk69/nonduiven/


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The father is a brown with somewhat dilute looking flights, from split dilute maybe.

Note the patch of white behind the eye on the mother


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

These photos are taken from a German site but are of "English" Nuns.
The German Nun is a similar to your birds but your birds are badly mismarked. 

Both the youngsters look ash-red, one with dirty (V). Their father is either ash-red or recessive red masking ash-red.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

No, my money is on brown. I have recessive red magpies. Ash red is not common in these breeds i.m.o.
Which one would be dirty? You mean the effect on the beak, right.

And badly mismarked is a bit harsh... 
Not that I care; I am researching coarse genetic mechanisms. They suffice.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Henk,

Do you have a photo with their father?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

He was on the nest when I took the photographs.
Will take pics asap... 

O, and Bob, many thanks for the (recessive red) nun pictures. Don't have to worry about that anymore. 
That top one is a brown, right?

This is the brown sibling again:


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Henk,

For me, this sibling looks like ash-red spread dirty and their nestmate looks like a dilute version of it. Maibe I'm wrong but this is my opinion.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi Dina and Bob,

The thought crossed my mind too, but doesn't brown, a mutation on the same gene, behave like that too. But with more color on the flights and tail.
I have an ash red capucin. The tint is more red.
To my eye it resembles more the picture of the brown english nun.

So how common is ash red in these kind of breeds? I thought it was more of a post pigeon thing. The capucin proves I am an idiot... 

The problem is that I use the brown as a sexlink indicator here. Brown offspring is female, black is male.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Father:


















more on the album


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

i don't know much about this breed but i LOVE the color.. i wish i could find a homer that looked like these guys, i love strange marked & colored birds  either way you have some very beautiful birds...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

We are definitely looking at brown here. Note the fading in the flights of the father.
Which means, mated to black, is a sex-linked mating. All brown kids are girls, all black kids are boys. I do think that light sibling is khaki spread, although I'm not sure why it's so light on some parts of the feathers. Perhaps the light is already getting to her. And her sibling is a spread brown hen.
With this mating, Ash-red has nowhere to come into play. Ash-red isn't even in Nuns. Even if it was/is, no one would want it, as the only colored part of the bird would be the head - the flights and tail would blend in with the white too much.

Edit: Looking in my book, it says that "silvers" occur in Germany. I'm not sure if they mean silver as in true silver, or silver as in ash-red. It said they also come in blue. I've never seen any colors other than recessive red/yellow, black, and spread brown.

Also, upon closer inspection of the darker colored baby, it does look a lot like recessive red. I can see some blue-ish color in the tail. Perhaps both parents are split for RR. Another note, is it just me, or does the mother look kind of dun? Could be the lighting.

Is this the first time you've bred these birds?


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

German nun, 
plain head:
- Silver or lavander (ash-red spread):
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_8/GZFDFRTUFIXNIMHAKKV
- Dilute silver:
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_8/HPNLYQFWEENYYXHUDKD
crested:
- Ash-red spread (black X rec red):
http://sorinescu.sunphoto.ro/alte_rase_personale/VXLBETVAKGPHNPWWRKN
http://sorinescu.sunphoto.ro/alte_rase_personale/OLSULALNPYXAJIEPSFV


English nun:
- Brown spread:
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15r_8_jucatori_zburatori_1/25405310


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The black x rec red birds aren't ash-red spread. They are ash-red, but not spread. The first one is split for blue. The second one is either recessive red itself, or split for recessive red (which we know it must be at least split, if it came from a RR bird). Split RRs often show some extra red in ash-reds.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

Father and brown sibling are very similar in tint.

Is there any chance that lavenders like that are not ash red based? 

This was the first successful breeding attempt. Lost a lot of young to predators.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes. You can get a very similar effect with Milky. Lavender Lahores are actually milky black, not spread ash-red.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henk69 said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Father and brown sibling are very similar in tint.
> 
> ...


This is a dilute spread brown.



Henke, I apologise if I caused any offence referring to your Nuns as "badly mismarked" 

Did you note if iether of the babies were short-downed at hatching? Also the iris of a brown pigeon is pink, this is evident at just a few days old. Your "dilute brown" would have been naked with very obvious pink eyes.
Does the darker of the two youngsters have any black flecking? The flecks may be small, but if present, could prove significant.
Were the birds bred in an individual pen? Is it possible that another bird could be their sire?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

None taken.

The only other bird at that time was the ash red capucin female (baldhead, white belly, white flights, white tail). The typical flattened sides of the neck are dominant. So far the "khaki" sibling doesn't have that.

No, I tend not to look at the squabs in those early stages, but good tip!


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Henke,
Here are some photographs of a faded brown baby, a dilute brown would look more or less the same. As you can see the eyes are "pink", unfortunately her sibling died so there is no comparison with normal eyed-colour baby.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I am a bit confused now. The dutch nun breeders call this brown color "dun".
Could they be wrong?
Dun isn't thát brown, right?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Hi All , Sorry about comming in late on this one. First I will say that I have never bred NUN's. Forget ASH-RED in this breed all the red nuns that I have seen are recessive red. You can not get a red tail or red flight feathers from ash red and the NUN breed calls for 10 colored flights and a colored tail. Now I believe that what we may realy see here is pale and not dilute.What someone may be doing is trying to produce and gold color as the pale gene will change Recessive Red to gold as we see in ARCHANGELS Henk who did you get the parents from, they may be able to tell us something more about the parents that would help.* GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi BECKY, The SILVERS that the Germans talk of are true slivers (blue dilutes)* GEORGE


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I bought them on a market, sorry.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Update,

These pigeons keep me baffled!
The nun's color in this topic is called "dun".
The color looks brown.
But genetically it is indeed: Ash red!

Why the flights and tails have this much color, I don't know.

The color is not recessive red because out of a pairing with a recessive red figurita I got one ash red and one black.


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