# Pigeon People - Agenda & 2nd meeting report



## Guest (Nov 20, 2003)

The second meeting of Pigeon People was on November 3. About 15 or 20 people came, and 9 or 10 were new. 

Most people actively spoke, and it was clear that the main interest at this point is stopping city government harassment of people who are feeding pigeons and other urban wildlife. I will report on and discuss this later in this string, but some details first.

The sign-up sheets were missing at the end of the meeting. I apologize for bringing this up here, but it means most of the people who were new at that meeting will be unreachable for updates unless they check in here on Pigeons.com. 

So, if anyone knows somebody who says they haven’t heard from me, please pass this on.

We need a place to meet. Can someone suggest a very inexpensive location where we can speak as much as we want and not bother people? Restaurants - like the one we were at twice - aren’t good that way.

One statement about caution: At the meetings, i think that people should talk about pigeon feeding but not reveal the location. The mailing list will be secret.

Please add here anything that i’ve left out about the first two meetings, and this string is a good place to discuss plans and issues.

From now on, meetings will consist of a time for discussions about rescue and rehab (successes and problems); then, reports on harassment or worse things like poisoning; followed by a session to plan our next steps and evaluate how we've done.

Committees will be formed to work more intensively and continually on areas that we’re currently emphasizing. They will report at the meetings. If you want to take part in one, please let me know.

We held the meeting along with Anna Kugelmas’ group, MTAA (Manhattan to the Aid of Animals). Pigeon People will be meeting on its own from now on and will be in touch with MTAA.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2003)

Here's a description of our group, Pigeon People:

Pigeon people exists to help our pidgies get the care they need and help us do it. We're about to do in local spots what's being done on Pigeons.com worldwide.

We’re here to show people how harmless and loving pigeons are. If people who don’t like pigeons happened to read some of the stories on Pigeons.com, some of them would find out how wrong they are. We want to reach more people and give out as much information as we can get.

We meet as a support group every month so people can share pigeon stories and concerns and contribute solutions about rescue, rehabilitation, and pet care, thereby doing in person what works well on Pigeons.com. We have to learn from and teach each other, take care of our pigeons with pooled resources and knowledge, and support each other.

We’re hoping to get legal help for people ticketted for feeding animals in public places.

We’re starting work on changing the law that allows killing pigeons and enables the NYC attack on feeding them.

As a longterm goal, we hope to build a rehabilitation shelter (a sanctuary will come after that if we’re successful).

A website will be built soon.

The work will cover other urban wildlife and is done in coalition with other groups.

People who are interested in Pigeon People or any of our work can take part by coming to meetings, joining a task force, or just writing to me at [email protected] 

I'm keeping in touch as much as possible with everyone between meetings - by e-mail, phone, and posts here on Pigeons.

Aside from posting in this discussion, you can reach me by e-mailing. [email protected] 

Al

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 19, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 19, 2003).]


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2003)

To achieve any of this, we need documented, comprehensive information with the sources indicated. In order to become a reliable and credible source, we have to field all the questions and discusss all the facts. We have to show that our opinions are valid. 

This is especially true for concerns about health, law, and humane methods of keeping pigeons off of buildings.

Most people, for example, won’t believe it if you tell them pigeons don’t transmit disease, but a brochure with authentic backup from good studies and established authorities would convince some of them.

This information will be used a lot by members of Pigeon People. We’ll often be speaking one to one and sometimes in groups. And we will publish brochures and leaflets. There will be a website where the info and action will come together.


Please join and contribute research time in these areas:

- Pigeons and transmission of disease to people.

- The law in New York City as it affects feeding and keeping pigeons.

- Finding and evaluating vets, rehabbers, and sanctuaries where people like and respect pigeons (rehabber and sanctuary information will be kept within the group if requested).

- Scoping out politicians for their opinions about pigeons and other urban wildlife.

- Stories about pigeons that show how irresistibly friendly they are as feral birds or pets.

- Instances of poisoning. A list of cases of feeding harassment.

- Locating people who need help with rescued pigeons.


A couple of people have volunteered. One was at the meeting (his sign-up sheet was one of the ones stolen). Two others volunteered later. We’re hoping for a few more people with energy and some time.

Al


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2003)

I hope we can do as much as the Trafalgar Square people have done. We may get as much support. Our effect depends on it.

I think that the attack on pigeons is increasing in many places, so we should get into the effort now. Teaching people about pigeons is the underpinning of political change. Let's see what we can do.

Tomorrow, i'll post a report of what was discussed at the meeting about the persecution of feeders.

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 19, 2003).]


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2003)

People at the meeting wanted very much to discuss the problem created by the New York City government, which has recently been persecuting people who feed pigeons, sparrows, or squirrels.

Our knowledge of the law is so far limited, but we think it's legal to feed them. People have reported being cited for littering. A judge ruled that it can't be considered littering, since you know the food will be picked up - but that was a few years ago. 

The fine was $50, but someone at the meeting said it has doubled. The current harassment started with what was called the 'ticket blitz,' which was in part a way of making money by the city. The ticketting has slowed down for most things - but not for pigeon feeding.

I've noticed that one of the effects of the harassment is that most people believe there is a law specifically against it, giving them a feeling that they are empowered to object more loudly.

As a result of all this, pigeon lovers are afraid to feed. Some throw seeds out before dawn. But, with cool weather, pigeons are hungry. And pigeons who need healthcare won't get it if their caretakers don't stay with them. The strength of the recently-augmented myth about dirty birdies is so strong that it conceivably could result in a law being passed specifically against feeding animals in public places.

Some members have gotten letters from the N.Y.C. Health Department telling them to feed on public property instead of near their homes. None of those got fines. In parks, some of us have been fined and others get by without trouble. One was told by the cops it was okay to feed but only in the park.

The meeting didn't get as far as discussing tactics we can take. I'd like to offer two. One is publicity to counter the dislike and mistrust of pigeons that always comes out when the subject is on the table. Another is to fight in court. I'm not suggesting any legislative effort. We're just beginning. But we should find out politicians' opinions and records on pigeons and related issues.

This outreach will be a lot of work. What do you all think?

One member of the group has suggested a committee to direct contacting of elected officials whenever they come out against pigeons.

We would like to find a lawyer who'll work for free. Another group called Urban Wildlife Coalition has met with lawyers at the local bar association but hasn't gotten an answer yet. They are thinking of a lawsuit against the city to stop the persecution. We have been working with the UWC and could join in the suit.

There is good news about pigeon feeding, but it's hard to apply. In the meeting, one person said that it's legal to feed in public spaces (this is supported by the Health Dept. letters) and that the outside six feet of a sidewalk are public. In her opinion, anyone who's fined can win the case. A few of the members of Pigeon People have gotten tickets, but not many have money to hire a lawyer. No one has yet reported winning a case or having it dismissed, and some can't afford to pay a fine.

We are a group of people who know we want to fight this, even though some are optimistic and some pessimistic. 

Someone told us a good technique to use when people yell at us for feeding pigeons. She said carry a cheap camera and take a picture of them - it intimidates them. Two other people said they give out cards with peaceful messages. One of them hands out the St. Francis prayer, and the other something about pigeons that's sounds like it's as gentle as rock doves themselves. Both of them reported that it works, and they'll bring the text to the next meeting so we can print them up - or discuss putting them together.

This isn't meant to be the minutes of our meeting - we don't have a secretary, yet. You can add what you want by posting here.

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 20, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 20, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 20, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited November 20, 2003).]


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Hello Al, 
I have read your posts with interest. Are your meetings held in NY?
I manage this web site so I feel I have a right to express my opinion here.
And for that matter, all members here at Pigeons.com also have a right to express their opinions on any subject that relates to pigeons. 

I think your efforts are noteworthy; I disagree with your goals. Working to insure that pigeons can be given food anywhere and everywhere will not serve to change the public’s negative perception of pigeons. It will only prolong it. And it will exacerbate the problem of “pigeon mess” in our inner cities. I will explain… 

As I see it Al, there is a problem in feeding pigeons indiscriminately, or in other words, feeding pigeons in the wrong places. The goal should be to set up “proper” feeding locations and discouraging people from feeding pigeons just anywhere. The result of this will be to encourage pigeons to hang out and feed in a location that is not damaging to private and public buildings, roofs, ledges and sidewalks, pooping on canvass awnings, and such. Efforts to modify the feeding habits of pigeons will go a long way to change the public mind about these wonderful creatures. 

I love pigeons and I have watched sore fully the general publics’ distain for pigeons. 

Why do so many people dislike pigeons? Is it because of the messy environment created by wild feral pigeons? Is it because some people have to spend their money on efforts such as “pigeon clean-up” and “pigeon control”? Is it because people believe that these birds are pests, like rats and flees? Or is it because they are afraid of catching some kind of disease from these birds?

The truth is that many people, especially merchants, dislike pigeons for all the above reasons, and many more reasons not stated. But the facts are that most of these reasons are true. Pigeons are messy. They do damage property. And they are “pests” to many people who do not understand them. So what can we do to correct this situation?

Yes, we can try to educate the general public about the beauty of all pigeons. We can try to change laws that are harmful to pigeons. We can do many things for the pigeons that might make their lives a little better, but I think in the long run, this will be a loosing battle. I have another idea.

We need to focus our efforts upon changing the behavior of pigeons. We can do this. After all, pigeons are the one’s who will benefit from some behavior modification most. We may not be able to change peoples’ perception of pigeons, but we can change pigeons’ behaviors. We can locate potential “pigeon sanctuaries” and obtain permissions to develop sanctioned feeding stations. We can explore “locations for “official pigeon housing” in and near our cities. With proper feeding locations and housing, pigeons will not have to “hang-out” in the McDonalds parking lots and on the phone wires, waiting for some free French fries. With “sanctioned housing” and “sanctioned feeding” locations pigeons will have no need to search elsewhere for food and shelter. Pigeons will not need to forage if they live and eat in the same location. 

So I am talking about an effort to explore new “safe zones” for the wild city feral pigeons. The direction I am talking about will not be easy. It will require a huge effort by many people all over this country. It will require organization, persistence and follow-through, but…if successful, it will actually improve the conditions our feral pigeons live in; it will change everyone’s environment for the better; and it will eventually change people’s perception of our feral pigeons. This is what we really want.

Someone has to do it…research the locations, talk to business people, government officials, etc. Hold auctions to raise capitol, reach out for donations, form work groups, purchase materials, obtain permits, construct the buildings, and then supply the food, maintain the facilities, etc. If you think this will take a monumental effort, then I think you are right. It will. But it will only happen if someone, anyone, perhaps you, will decide it must be done.

I welcome your comments.

Regards,
Carl
Pigeons.com


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2003)

Hi, Carl

I'm glad you're taking part in this local group. Of course i know this is your site.

The meetings are in Manhattan, so far. 

I'm at work now and will answer your post sometime in the next day or two.

Al


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2003)

Carl,

You're right that restricting pigeon feeding would improve their image. I prefer the longer-term solution of showing people what pigeons are like while taking up local problems as they come up. If people had a chance to read things like the stories each of us tell, they might learn something. Pigeon People will be giving out such stories along with the facts about pigeons.

But, about restricting the places to feed them, how would people rescue pigeons if they couldn't feed them? The only way i catch a pigeon that can fly but needs help is by giving it a treat. And it helps a lot if that pijjy knows me from a history of being friendly. I don't think we should wait til they're easy to catch.

All the pigeons in a city aren't going to the few feeding stations that public or private scarce money would donate to them. The counterpart of restricting feeding is a big fine on feeding where the pigeons are. Public opinion being as it is, you can be sure it would be enforced. 

That would mean a cutting off of not only the food but also the culture of pigeon lovers and the pigeons who love us. They aren't exactly wild birds - they're between wild and tame. I know it could be done gradually, but this doesn't change much.

Pigeons come to us as we reach out to them.It's a mutual relationship. We're lucky to have them in our extended family. If people want the truly wild ones, they can be found at the edges of Europe and in some areas of Asia and Africa. 

You've listed a few measures we can work on to help take care of pigeons and improve their image. I agree with all of them but your main one.

You've said it would be a long haul to accomplish your program. My suggested program would take long, too. But Pigeon People is starting by taking care of the pigeons we have now and the pigeon lovers who exist now. In the foreground and in a pervasive way, we won't let up on public education. Education is the underpinning of politics, and it's what our members want to get started on.

Besides, whenever we introduce pigeon issues to public representatives in power, we're likely to find ourselves served with a backlash, with the opposite of what we'd asked for. Don't we need to build people's opinions first?

Just as you believe our program will fail, i think yours will. But we agree on most of it. In any case, we're in it together, and we better do something. 

Please continue this discussion.

Al


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