# What is it with the Eyes



## It_Fly's (Dec 9, 2010)

Why do adds for birds for sale have pictures of the birds eye?


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

It_Fly's said:


> Why do adds for birds for sale have pictures of the birds eye?


some fancier believe it can show that the bird are good or bad my looking at it


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

These fools think they can tell if a bird is a good breeder, or flyer, or if it is a cull by looking . The right eye is the flying eye, the left eye is the breeding eye. I think they are full of it, as long as the bird has 2 eyes it will be what ever it will be. Proof the eye sign expert at the show down in Kansas said I should cull my 144 hen wast no more food on it. she is an AU champion and 2 of her young will be AU champs this yr.
Dave


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

I think it is preferably preferences;
Some like red eyes and some like orange eyes. I haven't seen a white pear eye on a racer before but yea... 

Some people only buy birds with the eyes they want...


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

When I look at a bird I look at the whole bird, eyes included.


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## calzephyr (Dec 22, 2009)

The whole eyesign "thing" with the pictures of the eyes in the ads is a throwback to the "good old days" of pigeon racing when the majority of fanciers ignorantly thought that you could judge the quality of a pigeon by the specific "signs" in the inner area of the eye such as the "Circle of Correlation", etc. It's all balderdash, better suited for the carnival midway.

The fact that this pseudo-science still is accepted by anyone in the racing pigeon world shows how far we still have to go before we will be taken seriously as a sport/hobby. Ever see any breeders/trainers at the Kentucky Derby talking about their horses "eyesign"? Of course not, they would be laughed out of the sport if they tried to tell anyone that they could tell a fast horse from a slow one, or a good breeder from a bad one, by looking into it's eyes with a magnifying glass.

The sooner we, as a hobby, drop this "eyesign" superstition, the better off we will be.

Sorry for the rant.. just my two cents.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

They will look at horses eyes I imagine, when race horses start flying and getting eaten during the race home from a place it has never been! How is a 1,500 lb mammal doing a lap around the field compare to a racing pigeon? What would you look for in the horses eye, to see if he can follow the fence, or maybe find the feed bucket? If anyone wants to think they should compare race horses to racing pigeons I will be happy they do! lol


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Just my opinion.I can't see how Eyes can tell a person what's in the bird's Heart.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

That is just it, they can't tell you everything, but they can tell you much. Is there any part of the bird that can tell it all, wings, feather, body, mind. heart? Any single one without the others leaves you with nothing, and any one missing leaves you less than perfect.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> These fools think they can tell if a bird is a good breeder, or flyer, or if it is a cull by looking . The right eye is the flying eye, the left eye is the breeding eye. I think they are full of it, as long as the bird has 2 eyes it will be what ever it will be. Proof the eye sign expert at the show down in Kansas said I should cull my 144 hen wast no more food on it. she is an AU champion and 2 of her young will be AU champs this yr.
> Dave


There is no such nonsense as flying eye and breeding eye. People should just do their homework before saying anything like this. I am not an eyesign expert but I believe that if you have developped a good WORKING family of birds, they will tend to all show some common features in the eye as well as body and wing and only then can one try to say if this or that bird can be given a chance as a breeder or not. As for me, I've had good racers and also good breeders but who couldn't race from different origins and each strain had different features in eye, wing, etc. but those were common inside each family. It takes years and a lot of loft visits to find out. The only thing I look for is the eye of a good breeder though I admit some excellent breeders do not have the features I look for, I even owned such a bird that eyesign experts would have culled, this bird also happened to be the slowest bird in the loft.
What people want are birds who can both race and breed, at the same time they get rid of some breeders who are bad racers.
And even now, I don't advise anyone to keep or get rid of any bird in their lofts as the owner should know his birds better (than me)! The one advice I give is that every year, you should get rid of one third of your birds who have not won a prize nor bred anything worth keeping...
Oh, and by the way, if all sellers post a picture of the eye, there must be a reason! Check out the Pipa auction site, those fanciers are European Champs, think they are fools ? I don't think so... And try selling a bird with a big pupil to an Asian! We guys have races from 150 to 1500 km every year.
Jimhalekw is a wise man. Most want results like making instant coffee, quality takes time and effort. Maybe after taking part in 1000 miles races you will know a little about pigeons.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> I think it is preferably preferences;
> Some like red eyes and some like orange eyes. I haven't seen a white pear eye on a racer before but yea...
> 
> Some people only buy birds with the eyes they want...


Sorry to say you ain't seen much! And it's pearl eye or gravel eye not pear!
I keep ALL eye colours and they can ALL win.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I guess are not an eye expert that, is the way the expert told me. If I believed all this nonsense I would do my home work, maybe you should do yours.
Dave


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/breemen.php This is an interesting article about eyes. Jim


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Jimhalekw said:


> http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/breemen.php This is an interesting article about eyes. Jim


Very interesting Jim. But check out this note (in red in the original text):

_"( these colorless eyes would be those with a wide circle of correlation (Barkel's) and only suited for the short distance races. Ed. ) Also, when you visit the nation wide exhibitions you'll find birds with non-descript eyes among the speed pigeons, but never will you find them among the matadors!"_

Fine with me but the guys don't want to be explicit about what you DO find or should find in the "matadors" which I suppose means "long distance birds". It's these half truths that lead the common fancier to believe that eye-sign is "bull". Because you read an article and it tells you whatever thing it ISN'T but does not tell you what IS there or what you're actually supposed to find there.

For those of you who have followed Jim's link and read Steven Van Breemen's article anotated by Gerhard Blum & Josef Hofmann. This is what I would have continued writing in their place, because these two guys obviously know but don't want to tell. So after the word "matadors" which I think means long distance birds, they should have said that these long distance pigeons do NOT have wide circles of correlations ( the coloured circle around the pupil) but they have NARROW circles of correlation with distance lines in them BUT also have in various quantities and shapes and at least a thin full circle of adaptation which is the black or brownish circle between the pupil and that famous circle of correlation which for many years, thanks to S.W. Bishop of Weybridge everyone thought was the only thing to look for in the eye and looked for it in abundant quantity too. 
People thought that the thicker this coloured circle of correlation, the better the bird. Wrong! I think all serious long distance fanciers have found out that those are short distance birds or culls.
The good long distance racer has a thin circle of correlation, a deeply coloured iris, a good inner circle of adaptation (the thicker and the more 'rugged' one, for lack of a better word, the better for me). And last but not least MOVEMENT suited to distance racing or movements. Of which I discern three types, and of which there are good ones and unwanted ones again... Surprise surprise! Ever heard of this one?
I'll let you do your homework on this... Now don't hurry up and call it horse ****... Just to put you on the right track, there's circular iris movement, pupil movements and the bulge.You serious guys go look in what type of birds you'll find each and what is desirable and what is not and what type of race you want each of these movements for or not at all. You need to look in the eyes of Champion pigeons, and these don't occur all that often. Some lofts have them from time to time, Andre Van Bruaene was one of them and there are some in Europe, Asia, Australia and Britain.
Good luck and happy journeying! Of course it's easier to send any bird to any race and lose most of them or not race beyond 400 or so miles.
JPS (India)


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

calzephyr said:


> The whole eyesign "thing" with the pictures of the eyes in the ads is a throwback to the "good old days" of pigeon racing when the majority of fanciers ignorantly thought that you could judge the quality of a pigeon by the specific "signs" in the inner area of the eye such as the "Circle of Correlation", etc. It's all balderdash, better suited for the carnival midway.
> 
> The fact that this pseudo-science still is accepted by anyone in the racing pigeon world shows how far we still have to go before we will be taken seriously as a sport/hobby. Ever see any breeders/trainers at the Kentucky Derby talking about their horses "eyesign"? Of course not, they would be laughed out of the sport if they tried to tell anyone that they could tell a fast horse from a slow one, or a good breeder from a bad one, by looking into it's eyes with a magnifying glass.
> 
> ...


While we're at it...how 'bout we drop that whole "sexing a bird with a pendulum" thing? Starting out keeping pigeons, I can't tell you how idiotic I found it to think you can tell a pigeon's sex by swinging a weight on a string over it. Now...I'm sure someone will pipe up about how it *really works* for them! To them I respond...yes it works - people who sexed their pigeons with a pendulum are actually right fifty percent of the time.


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## dod rennie (Jan 3, 2011)

Crazy Pete said:


> These fools think they can tell if a bird is a good breeder, or flyer, or if it is a cull by looking . The right eye is the flying eye, the left eye is the breeding eye. I think they are full of it, as long as the bird has 2 eyes it will be what ever it will be. Proof the eye sign expert at the show down in Kansas said I should cull my 144 hen wast no more food on it. she is an AU champion and 2 of her young will be AU champs this yr.
> Dave


Love your attitude I love pearl eyes but any other colour is ok the only thing I dont like is what we call bull eyes when one eye is black


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

jpsnapdy said:


> Sorry to say you ain't seen much! And it's pearl eye or gravel eye not pear!
> I keep ALL eye colours and they can ALL win.


fudge. If you keep all eye color than what's the point of looking at the eye for?
Senseless.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

all this crap are a bunch of nonsense,
Look at pipa. there are all eye colors and there are pupil of all sizes. 
What can you get out of it when there are so many variations?
So you saying that only some eyes are good, buy explain the birds with the bad eyes.
look at the prices they are being bought at. 
I don't think that anyone would use that much money on something that they would not believe in. 

Unless you filthy rich and use money as toilet paper than good for you.


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## calzephyr (Dec 22, 2009)

Here's one of the best articles concerning eye-sign that I have read.....http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm


-Cal


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

You know as long as there will be people believing there will be people selling or pushing what they say as truth. Medicine doctor is a term that comes to mind. Ptras comment is exactly what I am talking about, lets push everything we don't understand in a pile and call it crap. Yeah you guys are right, there is no such thing as eye sign, I am a dumb ass for thinking different, and all those eye sign believing greats that win big just did it by luck. After all eye sign can't be true if that whole pendulum sexing thing doesn't work!


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

ptras said:


> While we're at it...how 'bout we drop that whole "sexing a bird with a pendulum" thing? Starting out keeping pigeons, I can't tell you how idiotic I found it to think you can tell a pigeon's sex by swinging a weight on a string over it. Now...I'm sure someone will pipe up about how it *really works* for them! To them I respond...yes it works - people who sexed their pigeons with a pendulum are actually right fifty percent of the time.



With that pendulum thing you said it works 50% of the time. 
Any one can just guess and still achieve that same result.


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## calzephyr (Dec 22, 2009)

yet another good article on eyesign theory......

http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/2011/05/eyesign-only-in-pigeon-racing/


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## toilco (Aug 1, 2008)

for me, i believe in eye sign, they say eye sign dont exist in dog racing, horse racing, or any other animal sports you can name, you know why? because birds especially pigeon navigate, you have to use your eyes, do horse, dog navigate? do they fly? that's why eye sign is important, but good eyes alone doesn't make you a champion, you should have a god stance, balance, wing structure, etc...

the problem with eye sign is we still have not mastered eye signs, if we rank our knowledge about eye sign from 0 to 100, we are still at 1, we still need 99 to fully understand eye sign.

i believe when a racing pigeon fly, they use their eyes as camera, they take shots and store it in their brain, they have photographic memory, when someone say this pigeon is very smart and navigate easily...i always think that pigeon has better/ very good photographic memory.

and i also want to add about the wattles on the nose, i don't believe pigeons have strong sense of smell that they can detect their home away for a couple of miles. what i believe is wattles is their homing instinct, without it they will not return home, thats why you can't see wattles to other birds only pigeons.


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## Goingatitagain (Feb 5, 2011)

I'll go one better for you..

Do you believe that some birds are more intelligent than others and if they are what are the signs to look for ????


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

toilco said:


> for me, i believe in eye sign, they say eye sign dont exist in dog racing, horse racing, or any other animal sports you can name, you know why? because birds especially pigeon navigate, you have to use your eyes, do horse, dog navigate? do they fly? that's why eye sign is important, but good eyes alone doesn't make you a champion, you should have a god stance, balance, wing structure, etc...
> 
> the problem with eye sign is we still have not mastered eye signs, if we rank our knowledge about eye sign from 0 to 100, we are still at 1, we still need 99 to fully understand eye sign.
> 
> ...


I don't think pigeons use their eyes to find their way home like we humans do. How can a pigeon return from a 600 to 1000 mile race over territory it has never seen? How did the pigeons used in the wars find their way? They were not released over and over to get a picture in their mind to follow. So I don't believe that eye sign is anything other that a sales gimmick.

I believe that the last/ latest (?) study found that a pigeon's navigational ability is located in the nose region. This has me looking at wattle size as the bird matures through it's life.

This is just my opinion and is worth what you paid for it. Take care and have fun.


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## toilco (Aug 1, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> I don't think pigeons use their eyes to find their way home like we humans do. How can a pigeon return from a 600 to 1000 mile race over territory it has never seen? How did the pigeons used in the wars find their way? They were not released over and over to get a picture in their mind to follow. So I don't believe that eye sign is anything other that a sales gimmick.
> 
> I believe that the last/ latest (?) study found that a pigeon's navigational ability is located in the nose region. This has me looking at wattle size as the bird matures through it's life.
> 
> This is just my opinion and is worth what you paid for it. Take care and have fun.


you are wrong, do you think pigeons will only look at the grounds? how about the sky? the sun?, they will look for clues in the sky and the sun, no matter what part of earth of you are, the sun still there, it was proven that birds can see ultra voilet rays that human can't, thats why if you flew your birds too cloudy they have difficulty finding their way home, it only means they use their eyes to navigate.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well its a hobby to be enjoyed and if you believe in all that crap about eye sign.Enjoy it, after all that why we take up hobbies. I for one do not believe in eye sign, BUT I STILL ENJOY MY HOBBY. * GEORGE


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

george simon said:


> *Well its a hobby to be enjoyed and if you believe in all that crap about eye sign.Enjoy it, after all that why we take up hobbies. I for one do not believe in eye sign, BUT I STILL ENJOY MY HOBBY. * GEORGE


There you go. Add me to this list. Take care and enjoy.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I believe in eye sign, they must have 2 eyes. I had to stop letting one of my birds out, she is blind in one eye and kept running into my tree.
Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Remember back in the day.. There was 10 grades on the eye sign therory number ten being the best eye. Books was written and many believed in it. And many a bird was graded by they eye NOW many an old old timer would NOTE the eye color as to breeding becausae of the different orginal strain line make up. Where as the race birds developed in the blegium region And then the English region. had a different eye color make up Many of the old line belgium birds were showing the violet eye some call peral eye. Where the english birds were more orange eyed yellow eyed birds. And they felt crossing the strain make up Changed the breed line base STILL today a good alert eye is a good mark for a bird A dull eye droopy eye ect tells some on the birds health also. BUT the tail sign Is not talked about much BUT thats what you see when the bird traps Perhaps the best sign in any race And off setting eye color helps reduce fade on some colors just as off setting even blue bar to blue bar It keeps the color cleaner. As blue to bl;ue BAR over time you get a dirty blue bar Then blue bar over blue check you keep blue cleaner. IT is all just breeding and thinking and a bling bird still can find home.


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## calzephyr (Dec 22, 2009)

In regards to birds using their eyes to see their way home, I remember reading about experiments done with homing pigeons where they fitted them with foggy contact lenses so that they could see nothing clearly. The loss of sight had no effect on their homing ability, each bird still made it back to the loft. So the argument that eyesign is legitimate in pigeon racing, but not needed in horse/dog racing because the horses/dogs don't need good eyes to make it around the track, is a false argument. Pigeons don't need good eyes to find their way home on the race course either.


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## toilco (Aug 1, 2008)

calzephyr said:


> In regards to birds using their eyes to see their way home, I remember reading about experiments done with homing pigeons where they fitted them with foggy contact lenses so that they could see nothing clearly. The loss of sight had no effect on their homing ability, each bird still made it back to the loft. So the argument that eyesign is legitimate in pigeon racing, but not needed in horse/dog racing because the horses/dogs don't need good eyes to make it around the track, is a false argument. Pigeons don't need good eyes to find their way home on the race course either.


why dont you try it yourself, toss them at night, lets see if they will be able to find their way home. if they can, sight will be useless.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

toilco said:


> why dont you try it yourself, toss them at night, lets see if they will be able to find their way home. if they can, sight will be useless.


Solar and geomagnetic conditions are totally different at night. Neither of which has to do with sight.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

toilco said:


> you are wrong, do you think pigeons will only look at the grounds? how about the sky? the sun?, they will look for clues in the sky and the sun, no matter what part of earth of you are, the sun still there, it was proven that birds can see ultra voilet rays that human can't, thats why if you flew your birds too cloudy they have difficulty finding their way home, it only means they use their eyes to navigate.


Ultraviolet light comes right through clouds. If birds are navigating by ultraviolet light with those marvelous "signed" eyes of theirs, they should have no problem on cloudy days. On a scale of 0 to 100, what we know about eye sign is a 1 as you say. That is because eye sign is a bunch of bunk. I know a flier who is certain that his birds win because of a certain music he plays for them in his loft. He pays absolutely no attention to eye sign.

I think that the biggest debunker of the eye sign theory is the fact that two so-called eye sign experts can look independently at the same bird, and one will "see" eye characteristics that he is sure will make the bird a winner, and the other will "see" eye characteristics that he is sure indicates the bird should be culled.

Don't worry about it though...just keep spending your money on eye sign loupes, and on books about eye sign.


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

fresnobirdman said:


> fudge. If you keep all eye color than what's the point of looking at the eye for?
> Senseless.


I looked at your website

Racing racing pigeons are a gamble, every race is a gamble where you never know who will win, but once you have the ace of spades in your hands, the probability of you winning are tripped! Here, we do not shoot for the best, we do not shoot for the Kings and Queens. We thrive for the ACE'S.

Here at spadewings loft, you will not see us post hundreds of birds, you will only see the few of the best posted here, because we only keep the best of Aces and cull the rest. 

What have you done in the racing game to-date?


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Eyes, like fingerprints have their own characteristics, some lines of birds and breeders like specific birds or look for birds with specific eyesights, but I would say that the all bird should be taking into consideration.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I would have to say that racing results not eyesign are what one should look for if you want to win .


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

toilco said:


> why dont you try it yourself, toss them at night, lets see if they will be able to find their way home. if they can, sight will be useless.


just poke their eyes out and let them fly during the daytime?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

In the 60's they had eye sign theories, don't breed like eyes, if the eye twiches more than 20 times in a minute it is a great flying bird. If the eye twiches more than 40 times in a minute it is a great breeding bird. Just how long does this theory have to be around befor it is a fact.
Dave


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## toilco (Aug 1, 2008)

Wingsonfire said:


> just poke their eyes out and let them fly during the daytime?


blindfolded them and toss them at daytime, lets see if they can find their home,


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

toilco said:


> why dont you try it yourself, toss them at night, lets see if they will be able to find their way home. if they can, sight will be useless.


The military has done this already and some pigeons can home better at night because of some compositions in their retina. Those birds that do better at night have more long rods than cones.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

toilco said:


> blindfolded them and toss them at daytime, lets see if they can find their home,


This experiment has been done also and pigeons can still find their way home, but obviously can't land.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

i have seem pigeons flying at night, now where they came from or where they were going, i havr=ent the slighlest


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

cubanlofts said:


> i have seem pigeons flying at night, now where they came from or where they were going, i havr=ent the slighlest


I have also seen pigeons flying at night. In cities that have well-lit areas around bridges or overpasses, feral pigeons will frequently fly all night. I have seen this both in Boston and New York.


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## toilco (Aug 1, 2008)

i strongly believe the eyes is very important in finding their way home, lets say you have a racing pigeon never been train (Toss). but loft flying for a year now, circling, routing, etc. but never toss....do you think this pigeon will be able to find its home right away like 2 or 3 hours if we toss it for the first time at 100 miles? or it will took him a day to figure it out? or this pigeon will be lost? why we need to train them if they have this compass thing in their head that no matter what we do they will still find their home? why we need to toss them at 3 miles, 5 miles, 10 miles, 15 miles, etc... why not just toss them for the first time at 50 miles? maybe you would say, there will be alot of losses if we take this kind of training...why??? i thought they have this compass thing in their head? ok i will tell you why because they are not familiar with the surroundings, they cant see any clues, its too far, they are confuse even if they use the sun's direction, thats why we have to train them slowly, 5 miles, ten miles, 50 miles, etc...., they will take pictures using their eyes and store it in their brain, until they figure it out where their home is, so if we toss them jump at 50 miles to 100 miles, maybe they will use the sun as their guide, they already mastered the direction of the sun, or they will look for clues in the sky....., but im not saying i already believe those eye sign theories, i just think there is something in the eyes.

that's why only racing pigeons route to far, have you you seen feral pigeons routing? maybe but not too far.... racing pigeons are design for that, its in their blood, when they are routing, they are familiarizing with their surroundings.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

toilco said:


> i strongly believe the eyes is very important in finding their way home, lets say you have a racing pigeon never been train (Toss). but loft flying for a year now, circling, routing, etc. but never toss....do you think this pigeon will be able to find its home right away like 2 or 3 hours if we toss it for the first time at 100 miles? or it will took him a day to figure it out? or this pigeon will be lost? why we need to train them if they have this compass thing in their head that no matter what we do they will still find their home? why we need to toss them at 3 miles, 5 miles, 10 miles, 15 miles, etc... why not just toss them for the first time at 50 miles? maybe you would say, there will be alot of losses if we take this kind of training...why??? i thought they have this compass thing in their head? ok i will tell you why because they are not familiar with the surroundings, they cant see any clues, its too far, they are confuse even if they use the sun's direction, thats why we have to train them slowly, 5 miles, ten miles, 50 miles, etc...., they will take pictures using their eyes and store it in their brain, until they figure it out where their home is, so if we toss them jump at 50 miles to 100 miles, maybe they will use the sun as their guide, they already mastered the direction of the sun, or they will look for clues in the sky....., but im not saying i already believe those eye sign theories, i just think there is something in the eyes.
> 
> that's why only racing pigeons route to far, have you you seen feral pigeons routing? maybe but not too far.... racing pigeons are design for that, its in their blood, when they are routing, they are familiarizing with their surroundings.


a friend gave me some of his late hatch last year 6 of them 2 was very young maybe 25 days at the most .. they have NEVER seen the outside before not even sun light 
i kelp them in for 3 week, trap train .. one day i lost 4 for them(i was thinking maybe a hawk scare them) ..one came back the next day, he called me on day 3 that the 3 of the ybs he gave me was there 2 of them was the youngest one ...he live a good 45-50 air mile from me 

i have heard ybs that are given to other flyer ..free or sold ..at a very young age ..and still make it back home to the original loft

*we just train them to USE their homing ability
*we toss them so they come home faster...this apply on racing birds only ..but if you was talking about homing only it have nothing to do with tossing and what time they come in.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Wingsonfire said:


> I looked at your website
> 
> Racing racing pigeons are a gamble, every race is a gamble where you never know who will win, but once you have the ace of spades in your hands, the probability of you winning are tripped! Here, we do not shoot for the best, we do not shoot for the Kings and Queens. We thrive for the ACE'S.
> 
> ...


Everything you will never do in your life time odd dud.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

toilco said:


> i strongly believe the eyes is very important in finding their way home, lets say you have a racing pigeon never been train (Toss). but loft flying for a year now, circling, routing, etc. but never toss....do you think this pigeon will be able to find its home right away like 2 or 3 hours if we toss it for the first time at 100 miles? or it will took him a day to figure it out? or this pigeon will be lost? why we need to train them if they have this compass thing in their head that no matter what we do they will still find their home? why we need to toss them at 3 miles, 5 miles, 10 miles, 15 miles, etc... why not just toss them for the first time at 50 miles? maybe you would say, there will be alot of losses if we take this kind of training...why??? i thought they have this compass thing in their head? ok i will tell you why because they are not familiar with the surroundings, they cant see any clues, its too far, they are confuse even if they use the sun's direction, thats why we have to train them slowly, 5 miles, ten miles, 50 miles, etc...., they will take pictures using their eyes and store it in their brain, until they figure it out where their home is, so if we toss them jump at 50 miles to 100 miles, maybe they will use the sun as their guide, they already mastered the direction of the sun, or they will look for clues in the sky....., but im not saying i already believe those eye sign theories, i just think there is something in the eyes.
> 
> that's why only racing pigeons route to far, have you you seen feral pigeons routing? maybe but not too far.... racing pigeons are design for that, its in their blood, when they are routing, they are familiarizing with their surroundings.


I got this feeling that you haven't read any scientific experiments done on pigeon homing ability. Pigeons do use eyes to pinpoint their home and they use landmarks to guide them. And by tossing them they improve because they remember the landmarks. But the eyes are not the homing sense because they blindfolded them and they still get home. Pigeons use different homing abilities whether they be magnetic, sun, smell(?), etc.

The reason we toss them at shorter distances is to build their muscle or to condition them. (We do the same thing for any human athlete.) Obviously tosses seem to improve their homing, too, because as you have mentioned, by becoming familiar with landmarks or surroundings they have clues to get home faster.

Now homing ability is not restricted to pigeons. Birds like terns that can travel thousand of miles can home, too. In fact in one experiment terns were kept on a closed box so that they can't see outside and were released thousand of miles away and the birds reached home (their breeding ground). That would imply that eye sight is not necessary for homing.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I do have seen feral pigeon routing. Mine! LOL!

You are correct that routing and loft flying help pigeon familiarized with their surroundings. In fact in one experiment it is good that pigeons have routed. In that experiment those pigeons that routed/loft flown landed quickly and didn't overshoot while those birds that didn't route/loft flown overshot their home and was acting "lost" because they don't know exactly where to land.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't understand what all the controversy is about how useful eyes are to a homing pigeon. No matter how important they are to the bird, the question is: *How important are they to the fancier?* This whole discussion was about eye sign. Whether or not one can predict how well a pigeon will do by looking for something in the eyes. Is it a pattern? Is it a color? Maybe it is whether the eye has enough rods and cones?

Eyes are necessary to any animal that has evolved to use eyes. I just believe that it is ridiculous to think that any person can look at an animal's eyes and predict how it will perform under any circumstance. The equivalent in humans would be to predict how well they will do in college, or how they will perform in sports, based upon some mystical eye sign. (I'm pretty sure my son is Harvard bound, and my daughter will give up a promising career in medicine to become the first female MLB pitcher based upon their eye sign.)


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

This eye-sign is still a mystery to me. I don't even know the history on how it evolved. My guess is that some fanciers probably gathered their winning birds and noticed that their eyes stand out compared to the rest of non-winning birds and ended up speculating the relationship between those two. Unfortunately I have read that there also birds with rich eye-sign that is as crappy as those with not so good eye-sign. I suppose this should call for statistical test. Perhaps people should test their own loft to see whether eye-sign has any merits.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Eye sign is not a conclusive and should not be thought of as such, just a tool. Just as the tires on a race car won't deliver a winner every time, just a tool. Ask yourself why a pigeon's eyesight is so much greater than ours if eyes don't matter to them, why evolve that way?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Jimhalekw said:


> Eye sign is not a conclusive and should not be thought of as such, just a tool. Just as the tires on a race car won't deliver a winner every time, just a tool. Ask yourself why a pigeon's eyesight is so much greater than ours if eyes don't matter to them, why evolve that way?


Just a tool or a window to other invisible caracteristics.
No (serious) research has been done on the eyes of other species as a pointer to... let's say health, etc. 
Lack of research does not, per se, condemn the possibility at the outset. Only pigeon fanciers have taken some time and care to "explore" the possibilities of the eye of their favourite creatures. 

Likewise, a long time ago, men believed the Earth was flat, one could even have been tortured and put to death if one said otherwise... Does this lack of research actually prove that it is flat? 
No, with time, it only proves that we are a dumb species.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I`m not an eyesign guy 100% so to speak....I like the birds eyes to be bright and colorfull...I do try to mate birds with different color eyes...As far as eyesign,my best pigeons ALL seem to have VG eyesign...Does this mean anything,maybe so,maybe not....I did catch a very young wild baby squeaker years ago...What beautifull eyes & eyesign he had...I put a Red band on him,just in case I ever see him again around....My though is/was,that the only way a WILD pigeon can survive is,IT has to find FOOD...They need great eyes to fing tiny scraps on the ground while they are flying bye...This is my thought about eyesign....Alamo


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## Andrew Walsh loft (Dec 10, 2011)

the eyes can say a lot about the bird i agree with the guys who say that it doesnt matter what the eye if its a racer or breeder if it will be good but with me experiance the eyes like i said tells a lot about the bird about its past and if its stressed or ever been stressed you can also tell this by the fethering as well


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## Andrew Walsh loft (Dec 10, 2011)

fresnobirdman said:


> I think it is preferably preferences;
> Some like red eyes and some like orange eyes. I haven't seen a white pear eye on a racer before but yea...
> 
> Some people only buy birds with the eyes they want...


i have birds with pearl and pale eyes but i didnt try to breed it tht way but it came out tht way


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