# What can we learn from the Thoroughbred ?



## SmithFamilyLoft

http://www.hitechbloodstock.com/index.htm

A One Loft owner recently sent out this link to his client list with the question of it's relativity to the racing pigeon sport. What I think might be relevant, is how people approach the challenge of breeding a faster horse. I can't help myself, but be at least mildly amused, that the same mistakes made in trying to breed or acquire an exceptional race horse, are some of the same mistakes made by breeders of racing pigeons.

Everyone has "good birds" and have birds with great pedigrees. The vast majority however, end up producing very average results. Pigeon racing and horse racing are both similar, in that huge prices are paid in order to acquire stock from famous racers. 

I suspect that no other animal has been subject to so much study, as the race horse. Horse racing is a $100 Billion Industry, and so much research and study has been applied to produce a faster horse, you would think it would be a science. Turns out, the race horse fancier is just as likely to over pay for a horse because of it's paper. 

And just like pigeon fanciers who like a certain kind of tail, wing, eye, etc. The same thing is true with horses. Northern Dancer was overlooked, or ignored, because he was little and didn't conform to what "expert" horse men thought a good race horse should look like. 

I also had to smile at the similarities in terms of a bias in favor of stallions and in cocks. There are many similarities if one looks for them. I guess the question is, what can we learn from this industry ? Just like pigeon fanciers who adhere to the theory of best to best, there are horsemen who follow that same line of thinking. I got a kick out of the page on this site under "Best to Best". 

*Current Breeding Theory

“If you want the best, breed the best to the best, and hope for the best”

Not an encouraging theory when you are investing £250,000 upwards!*

I am thus reminded where one can 'Invest" many thousands of dollars in order to acquire a single YB just weeks or months out of the nest, all in pursuit of the great paper chase.


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## lawman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> http://www.hitechbloodstock.com/index.htm
> 
> A One Loft owner recently sent out this link to his client list with the question of it's relativity to the racing pigeon sport. What I think might be relevant, is how people approach the challenge of breeding a faster horse. I can't help myself, but be at least mildly amused, that the same mistakes made in trying to breed or acquire an exceptional race horse, are some of the same mistakes made by breeders of racing pigeons.
> 
> Everyone has "good birds" and have birds with great pedigrees. The vast majority however, end up producing very average results. Pigeon racing and horse racing are both similar, in that huge prices are paid in order to acquire stock from famous racers.
> 
> I suspect that no other animal has been subject to so much study, as the race horse. Horse racing is a $100 Billion Industry, and so much research and study has been applied to produce a faster horse, you would think it would be a science. Turns out, the race horse fancier is just as likely to over pay for a horse because of it's paper.
> 
> And just like pigeon fanciers who like a certain kind of tail, wing, eye, etc. The same thing is true with horses. Northern Dancer was overlooked, or ignored, because he was little and didn't conform to what "expert" horse men thought a good race horse should look like.
> 
> I also had to smile at the similarities in terms of a bias in favor of stallions and in cocks. There are many similarities if one looks for them. I guess the question is, what can we learn from this industry ? Just like pigeon fanciers who adhere to the theory of best to best, there are horsemen who follow that same line of thinking. I got a kick out of the page on this site under "Best to Best".
> 
> *Current Breeding Theory
> 
> “If you want the best, breed the best to the best, and hope for the best”
> 
> Not an encouraging theory when you are investing £250,000 upwards!*
> 
> I am thus reminded where one can 'Invest" many thousands of dollars in order to acquire a single YB just weeks or months out of the nest, all in pursuit of the great paper chase.


You are right Warren in that the pedigree only tells a portion of the story, in pigeons the rest of the story is all about the heart, drive or desire to get back home. The best will have a strong drive that compelled them to get out in front and race for home. Can we breed for this? Short answer is no, we cannot as it is something that cannot be seen like wing shape, body style, ect…. 

It can be observed however and if you learn to recognize it and bred only those birds that display this attitude. Then with a little luck they will pass this trait on to their youngsters. Then you just took the next step towards having a winning season(s) in my opinion.


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## ejb3810

The Thoroughbred is a subject which I have spent much time and money related to. I will not bore people with any long stories, but will point out another similarity related to the breeding of race pigeons and race horses.
The popularity of an individual or family seems to run in fads. Instead of working with what has been proven to produce,people are always jumping on some new hot bandwagon!


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## re lee

I liked reading the part where 70 to 75 perecent of the offsprings abilty is passed down from the dams sides . And where looking at the dams side on the pedigree gives a balances. As the sire can breed up to 150 mares a year where a mare may only have 10 to 12 foals a life time. SAME goes in pigeons It takes both sides to make a winner Not just a top cock bird.


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## Xueoo

What can we learn from the Thoroughbred? Don't do what they do, that's what we learn from them. One hundred BILLION dollar industry and they can't produce a horse that can run. Nice model to not do as they, I would say.

But, you can't compare the two either. Pigeon racing is so wide spread with so many factors and so many "winners" that it would not be fair to compare that to a race horse. 

Just think of how many Olympians there are in the world every 4 years. Not many. How many world class sprinters come along in a decade? Not many.


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## Kastle Loft

Xueoo said:


> What can we learn from the Thoroughbred? Don't do what they do, that's what we learn from them. One hundred BILLION dollar industry and they can't produce a horse that can run. Nice model to not do as they, I would say.
> 
> But, you can't compare the two either. Pigeon racing is so wide spread with so many factors and so many "winners" that it would not be fair to compare that to a race horse.
> 
> Just think of how many Olympians there are in the world every 4 years. Not many. How many world class sprinters come along in a decade? Not many.


You may be right. 

The thoroughbred industry has backed itself into a corner by breeding for speed and winners at a very young age. Rarely do you find a quality race horse still racing after 4-5 years old. For the most part, they just don't physically hold up.

With the proliferation and popularity of young bird racing and one-loft racing, I can see a time that durability and racing longevity will be bred back out of the racing pigeon. It's very difficult to not be short-sighted.

Follow the money. That's what they did. I imagine we will, too.


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## raftree3

Having spent my life in the horse business, if such things interest you here's a link you may find worth looking at. http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp If you look at the stats you'll notice an ongoing downward trend in every direction. These stats pertain also to every facet and breed in the industry. Not much success has been had in trying to reverse these trends. Whether you love Racing Pigeons or Horses you have to do it for that simple reason....Love of the Sport. Support your clubs, try to encourage new flyers and try to get someone else "hooked" just as you were.


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## Granny Smith

We have a guy in our club that used to train thoroughbreds. He has turned out to be one of the better handlers in our club. So there's probably some similarity between training racing horses and racing pigeons.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Xueoo said:


> What can we learn from the Thoroughbred? Don't do what they do, that's what we learn from them. *One hundred BILLION dollar industry and they can't produce a horse that can run. Nice model to not do as they, I would say.*
> 
> But, you can't compare the two either. Pigeon racing is so wide spread with so many factors and so many "winners" that it would not be fair to compare that to a race horse.
> 
> Just think of how many Olympians there are in the world every 4 years. Not many. How many world class sprinters come along in a decade? Not many.


 When one considers all the money spent on "Foundation Breeding Stock" you would think pigeon fanciers could breed pigeons that would return home from a race. Yet every year, you read and hear fanciers complaining about losses, and will look for all kinds of external reasons other then the possibility that they have difficulty breeding homing pigeons.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

raftree3 said:


> Having spent my life in the horse business, if such things interest you here's a link you may find worth looking at. http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp *If you look at the stats you'll notice an ongoing downward trend in every direction. These stats pertain also to every facet and breed in the industry. Not much success has been had in trying to reverse these trends. * Whether you love Racing Pigeons or Horses you have to do it for that simple reason....Love of the Sport. Support your clubs, try to encourage new flyers and try to get someone else "hooked" just as you were.


 Why do you think the horses are getting slower, and homing pigeons are being produced which can't find home ? Based on articles about YB losses, I am assuming that it is due in part, to fanciers breeding homing pigeons that can't find home.


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## lawman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Why do you think the horses are getting slower, and homing pigeons are being produced which can't find home ? Based on articles about YB losses, I am assuming that it is due in part, to fanciers breeding homing pigeons that can't find home.


In part the problem is people only breed the fastest to the fastest and any given race station. With the short races taking dominance in the USA no one breeds for long distance birds any more. So in the end we (the fanciers) have created a problems where only speed is looked at not the whole bird. Then if you throw in the fanciers that live down the line of flight (in the drag) the birds dont have to be able to home they just have to follow the pack till they get somewhere that they recognise then fly as fast as they can towards home.

In my opinion unless or until someone comes up with a one loft race where the competition is from 500 - 600 miles or more with major money on the line for the winner. everyone will continue to breed for the average 200-300 mile races and claim to have the best birds.

It is realy to bad because the USA used to be the long distance capital of the world. Now its Australia and China where you have to go to race any distance at all. Heck in Australia they still have races of 1000-1200 miles. Why are we allowing our cousins from down under to have all the fun? 

Because no one in the USA is willing to challenge the Ganus' of our country to real pigeon racing.


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## conditionfreak

I know little to nothing about race horses. But the above post by "lawman" has a ring of truth in it, IMO.

Most flyers are chasing the mighty dollar, (heck, the whole world is doing that). The money races are usually a 300, but sometimes 100 and 200, and every once in awhile a 350 or 400 (rare though). My old club used to race 1,000 miles. No one does that any more. They say it is because of expenses, bu IMO, it is really because most birds just can't accomplish that anymore and it is very dissapointing to the majority of flyers. Thus, it went the way of the Do-Do Bird. Those long tough races, built upon the homing instinct. But like the above post says. The birds now, just follow the pack until they get close to home, and then they turn towards home. Since so many other birds in that pack are doing the same thing. Many birds arrive around the same time, and thus, we have a bunch of average birds finishing somewhere in the upper part of the sheet.

It IS about sprinting and money nowadays. Little about birds that can make it home on their own, from a very long way. Sure, sometimes some bird gets lucky and is one of only three day birds home from a 300 mile young bird race. But, IMO, those types of things are like playing the three digit lottery. Someone is going to win, just because they participated. They got lucky. The bird got lucky, or the bird just happened to follow along with another or two that actually knew what the heck they were doing.

The massive amount of birds being lost (and mostly young birds), IMO, is because of the lack of long distance races by their immediate ancestors. The homing ability is lacking because the tough races are lacking.

Anymore, it is all about speed, and not enough about building on the homing instinct. I have said on this site many times. Give me birds that do not necessarily win, but always come home, and I will be a happy camper. 

Yes, it is about money and they are called racing pigeons. I do understand that.

But before that. They were called "Homing Pigeons". We race homing pigeons. We do not home racing pigeons. There is a difference.

That is one reason I am only going to race old birds from here on out.

I do not chase money. I just am facinated by pigeons that come home on their own from great distances. The more pigeons I have that can do that, the happier I am. I was a big part of extending our previouls old bird races out to the 600 mile marker. It was previously only to the 500.

Really, how many of you have old birds in your loft right now, that you would consider paying to send to a 1,000 mile race? Some, but not many.

Of course, many (or most) here, will be chasing the almighty dollar. I understand that. It is the way of the world. It just is not for me. I want to have the best "homimg" pigeons I can make. Not the best "racing" pigeons I can make. Racing is secondary to my wants. Coming home (consistently) when most others do not, is awesome in my book.


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## triple7loft

The other side is OLR are geared for faster maturing pigeons and when flown against one another brings a more equal playing field.....Same thing can be said about horses, dogs, any other game you play..When you want to be a winner you want it now not two years from now.....That seems to be the American Way we want it now not later...I think when you breed for speed, maturity or wing or what ever you breed for you start loosing other traits along the way...Now like freak said I would love to see a few more yearling races being offered in the OLR as well, but the money's not there, so that closes that door for most ......


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## re lee

I think several of the posters have a wrong idea. ONE look at the JANSSEN brothers. They chose NOT to over work there birds. raced mostly250 k. not miles. But did race and win a 500k to show there birds could do well at any distance. But returned to the lesser distance after the 1 race. And many clubs that fly old bird races will fly the 5 and 6 hundred mile races.Far as lost birds. We now have to contend with a larger Hawk problem. 1 because they are protected But the thought that there food chain has been reduced SO NOW they hunt other types more often. such as race birds. And most young bird races are during the migration where hawk numbers gor up. PLUS the fact that Some do not remove there lesser birds before race season. So they get lost more on races. Where training and removing CALLED team selection. Does help keep a percent of lost birds down. Yes some might be blamed on breeding As to a sell point. Meaning some people inbreed and select by pedigree. Rather then Training and racing for selection in the breeding loft. BUT if you look back I can remember less birds lost. BUT never hardly seeing any coopers and such Where today You see them every where. Scared birds panic fly the wrong way. The smartest birds are the short distance birds Because to win with them They have to get it togethere faster to get home fastere. where a distance bird out 500 miles Can fall off coarse And still make up time and win. But selcting from youngbirds for a breeding program One woul have to look at a solid idea. as A full tested 3 year old raced bird Would show that greater chance of being better in the breeding loft. EVEN if it was never raced over 250 miles. Where young is a one time wonder in the 1 season to figure from. BUT just a littl thought in my small mind.


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## lawman

re lee said:


> I think several of the posters have a wrong idea. ONE look at the JANSSEN brothers. They chose NOT to over work there birds. raced mostly250 k. not miles. But did race and win a 500k to show there birds could do well at any distance. But returned to the lesser distance after the 1 race. And many clubs that fly old bird races will fly the 5 and 6 hundred mile races.Far as lost birds. We now have to contend with a larger Hawk problem. 1 because they are protected But the thought that there food chain has been reduced SO NOW they hunt other types more often. such as race birds. And most young bird races are during the migration where hawk numbers gor up. PLUS the fact that Some do not remove there lesser birds before race season. So they get lost more on races. Where training and removing CALLED team selection. Does help keep a percent of lost birds down. Yes some might be blamed on breeding As to a sell point. Meaning some people inbreed and select by pedigree. Rather then Training and racing for selection in the breeding loft. BUT if you look back I can remember less birds lost. BUT never hardly seeing any coopers and such Where today You see them every where. Scared birds panic fly the wrong way. The smartest birds are the short distance birds Because to win with them They have to get it togethere faster to get home fastere. where a distance bird out 500 miles Can fall off coarse And still make up time and win. But selcting from youngbirds for a breeding program One woul have to look at a solid idea. as A full tested 3 year old raced bird Would show that greater chance of being better in the breeding loft. EVEN if it was never raced over 250 miles. Where young is a one time wonder in the 1 season to figure from. BUT just a littl thought in my small mind.


There is only part of what you've said Re Lee that I agree with. That is young birds are one time wonders! Just as one loft racers are one time wonders..... That does not make them the best birds to put into your breeding loft, not by a long shot.

The top cock bird in my loft is out of a grondaleer cock and a Staff Van Reet hen. The cock was flown from two different lofts over his lifetime and flew 5 seasons out to the 600 mark before he was stocked. The hen flew out to the 500 two years in a row. Oden and Storm left their marks on my loft and my brothers in that over half the fliers and at least a third of my brothers breeders and over half of my current breeders decend down from them. 

We choose to fly old birds only because of our work schedules (it simply put is easier to deal with) however many of our friends fly our birds in youngbirds and have obtained registered AU Champions with them. 

Heck the top young bird flier in the 395 concourse imported an entire team of birds from the EU (from a long distance flier) and he dominates the young birds races with them. 

My point is you can take a long distance bird and train it like a sprinter and win races but you cannot (at least I've never heard of anyone being successful doing it) take a sprinter bird and win long distance races with them. The sprinter will burn out before it gets half way home from a 500 let alone a 600 mile race. You will be lucky if you get it home by the thrid day if at all. Secondly if it doesnt burn out it is flying over unknown territory, not just the same course for twenty or thirty tosses prior to the races and 6 to 7 races there after. The bird will have to use all of its instints to survive on its own (not in a pack) and still return home in race time. 

Your tale of the Jansen brothers winning a single long distance race with one of their birds is a great story, however I would have been more impressed if they had flown and entire season and dominated all the competition from the 100 out to 600 miles. Now please understand about half of my breeders are Jansens (primarely out of the 05, 06 and bond bloodlines) and they do well when bred together but my best fliers out of them come from the youngsters who are half grondaleer/staff van reet. The pure breeds will do well out to the two hundred but the cross breds dominate the middle distance races. None of the pure bred Jansens can even come close to the cross breds at the 300-400 mile races. 

Now I'm working on adding more long distance blood to my loft so I'll have birds that are competative all the way out to the 600 hopefully even further. The best of these will get mixed occasionally with the middle distance birds to give more speed on the distance blood and more toughness on the middle distance birds. As for the short distance speed birds I'll continue to do the same with them the best middle distance birds will get bred back into the short distance blood in order to toughen them up some as well. and also at the same time add a little more speed on the middle distance birds. 

Its horses for courses Re Lee and I wont limit myself or my birds to simply flying out to 200 miles. Do this long enough and your birds will loose the ability to home from longer distances.


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## triple7loft

The Janssen Brothers flew races for money period.......If they flew long races they couldnt race that bird untill rest was given...Thats why they flew short races to much money on those races to loose by flying long distance...



re lee said:


> I think several of the posters have a wrong idea. ONE look at the JANSSEN brothers. They chose NOT to over work there birds. raced mostly250 k. not miles. But did race and win a 500k to show there birds could do well at any distance. But returned to the lesser distance after the 1 race. And many clubs that fly old bird races will fly the 5 and 6 hundred mile races.Far as lost birds. We now have to contend with a larger Hawk problem. 1 because they are protected But the thought that there food chain has been reduced SO NOW they hunt other types more often. such as race birds. And most young bird races are during the migration where hawk numbers gor up. PLUS the fact that Some do not remove there lesser birds before race season. So they get lost more on races. Where training and removing CALLED team selection. Does help keep a percent of lost birds down. Yes some might be blamed on breeding As to a sell point. Meaning some people inbreed and select by pedigree. Rather then Training and racing for selection in the breeding loft. BUT if you look back I can remember less birds lost. BUT never hardly seeing any coopers and such Where today You see them every where. Scared birds panic fly the wrong way. The smartest birds are the short distance birds Because to win with them They have to get it togethere faster to get home fastere. where a distance bird out 500 miles Can fall off coarse And still make up time and win. But selcting from youngbirds for a breeding program One woul have to look at a solid idea. as A full tested 3 year old raced bird Would show that greater chance of being better in the breeding loft. EVEN if it was never raced over 250 miles. Where young is a one time wonder in the 1 season to figure from. BUT just a littl thought in my small mind.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Lessons from breeders of Thoroughbreds is the title of this thread, and I used the race horse analogy because it is a closer fit, but I could have just have easily said, "What can we learn from the Holstein Cow" and what breeders have done to this breed of cow. 

http://www.holsteinusa.com/holstein_breed/breedhistory.html

You won't learn anything from the Holstein Association link, and folks not really familiar with dairy cattle, marvel at how selective breeding has improved milk production in this breed. What you won't read, is what a dairy farmer relayed to me, concerning how many favorable traits, such as long life expectancy, heartiness, etc have all diminished greatly. Health problems, have multiplied ten fold over the last four decades. 

Don't want to derail thread by bringing cattle into the discussion as well, but the point is milk production was increased, but at great cost to the health of the animal. They were not breeding for a hearty, healthy cow which could produce good milk over a long working life with minimal health issues. No they were very focused only on how much milk. And thus, as this dairy farmer explained to me, why older breeds are being brought back. Things were lost in the rush to produce a lot of milk. 

See sample genetic problems in these cows, an unintended consequence. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024458

Perhaps the same could be true with pigeon breeders, horse breeders, breeders of dairy cattle etc ? As many of the posts on here made reference to homing pigeons losing something, when they no longer are being bred to find home from a 1000+ miles. Instead like in our Combine, most races are under 300 miles. You put up 1500 birds, and all a bird has to do is follow the flock for the next 200 miles or so, and we call that a race. In order to breed those speed demons, we might be forgetting that immunity system is important, ability to come into, and then stay in form, oh, and did I mention find their way home ?

Maybe my point is, when blinders are put on, and the only thing we focus on is did the bird win that 150 mile race the week the wind blew in my direction ? And does it have that one piece tail and eye color, well maybe we are just really missing the boat ?


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## re lee

triple7loft said:


> The Janssen Brothers flew races for money period.......If they flew long races they couldnt race that bird untill rest was given...Thats why they flew short races to much money on those races to loose by flying long distance...


I do not think so. they flew the distance they wanted to fly.


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## triple7loft

Well based on people whom meet the brothers and asked the questions about why they didnt fly long distance that was the answer they were given.
The Brothers became millionaires racing pigeons.......
Just Saying



re lee said:


> I do not think so. they flew the distance they wanted to fly.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> *There is only part of what you've said Re Lee that I agree with. That is young birds are one time wonders! Just as one loft racers are one time wonders..... That does not make them the best birds to put into your breeding loft, not by a long shot.............*


 There are so many good posts on this thread, that I must resist from posting some comment to every post. I was caused to think about a few things a little bit differently, as I read some of these posts, and I am certainly at that stage in my pigeon career, where I am willing to open my mind to possibility that I didn't know a fraction of what I thought I did. And with any luck, a year or two or three from now, I may have to rethink, what I think it is I know at this very moment. 

I would take some exception to your thoughts I highlighted above. I think it has to be looked at from a certain context. If your primary goal, is to become a specialist in the longest races in the OB season, then I would agree with you 100%. A OLR winner is most likely to be of very little value in helping you becom a Barcelona type Champion. The type of bird for that kind of event, I would presume would be very different then the fast maturing birds bred for One Loft Events. 

From the perspective of someone such as myself. My club has no OB season, we are all YB specialists. Our combine dropped the 600 years ago, and dropped one of the 500's as a truck which can hold several thousand pigeons is going to 500 mile events 80%+ empty. Handwriting for this location is on the wall, 500 mile races now only have 20% or fewer combine members participating. If one wants to play with pigeons in our neighborhood, you fly YB's. As such, it makes perfect sense, that breeders for these kinds of events, want to stock those which have won such events. And some fanciers such as myself, and our club, view YB racing as more of a challenge, and it requires different training, management, motivation, etc. 

How does a fancier such as myself, measure our birds, and not our system, loft, management etc ? The birds have to do well in different lofts, under different management. OLR's sure would seem like a useful tool to me. 

Willing to concede however, I would be very much intrigued by a yearling race, maybe birds are sent 300, 500, 600 miles ? Or what the heck, if you can get a 100 or so fanciers to go for it, why not have a very long distance OLR. yearling event ? The economics of it, is what seems to keep it from happening. Someone with very deep pockets, would need to build one maybe. 

Or, if you live a 1000 miles from me, at the end of YB season, I keep YB team over to following year, and then ship you the entire team and then you release them, and those that return are selected from for breeding stock. That way every bird in the loft are 1,000 milers. Even as a YB specialist. For price of shipping, I can test every bird. It happened here locally by accident. A 13 year old prisoner breeder got out, and it took him two weeks, but he navigated 1400 airline miles back home. In my mind, that was a keeper, and is being used to breed offspring for OLR's.

....I think I did it again, and rambled OT. Only 6% of those registered Thoroughbred's destined for racing, ever make it into the money. I don't think pigeons are any better then that. You can't just buy a bunch a high priced big time colts from famous sires and expect to buy a bunch of wins, any more then a pigeon fancier. It may help if you have $100+ million to work with, but enough "rejects" like Northern Dancer will happen every so many ten's of thousands of colts, that it leads one to think very few horse breeders really know what the heck they are doing, and that is no different from pigeons.


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## soundmajorr

As warren stated, his combine only races young birds. if he wanted to lets say, see if his birds are good for long distance events he could send them to someone who races old birds in their club/combine to then see if his birds can do well at those distances as well. of course this would take a minimum of two years to see if its possible. Its a matter of what you are looking to accomplish with your birds. I for one am in the process of figuring out my stock breeders since i am new. So part of my goal is figuring out which birds having good homing abilities and can compete with the rest of my club. so sending birds to PT classic is a useful tool for me. it allows me to grade my birds i send in someone elses hands and not just mine. i can see if they home good and if they can compete, without me being biased towards them as well as me not making errors along the way. of course i am going to be racing these same birds in my club. 
And as warren stated as well, the amount of fliers who fly OB's drop dramatically from the amount of YB's. It could be for a number of different reasons.


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## re lee

Point I am trying to make is the birds trained and raced at a distance be it 250 miles or 500 miles. SELECTION becomes the key. Then the loft improves. Racing just YOUNG BIRD a person has less results to figure into a breeder bird. So there choice has to be harder.


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## Pigeon0446

soundmajorr said:


> And as warren stated as well, the amount of fliers who fly OB's drop dramatically from the amount of YB's. It could be for a number of different reasons.


The numbers drop in OB's around here because there's no money in OB's atleast thats what the guys who don't fly say. In YB's there's a money race 7 out of the 10 weekends in OB's there's only a couple of derby races that have nowhere near as much money as the YB races. They say they aren't flying becasue there's no money but if everybody flew there would be money in OB's just like YB's. What my club did was we made it manditory for everybody to pay the capital for the club races in OB's. We did it hopes that it would make some ppl fly since they already have money on the races. This is our first year trying this so we'll see how it works out. I know we already lost one guy who doesn't want to pay but he's a guy that doesn't do anything at the club except complain how the ppl like me who do all the work for no pay at all do our jobs. Mean while he's gonna go to another club that you pay more for dues almost a dollar more per bird for shipping then on top of that 60 cents a bird each race to pay for the 3 guys that get 20 cents a bird each to do the stuff I do for free. Plus he lives about a mile from my club and about 10 miles from the other. So it's gonna cost him alot more in the long run just because he doesn't want to support his club.


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## soundmajorr

i completely understand. i believe alot of people beginnging dont fly old birds as well due to space. old birts dont take as much space as young birds depending on how you fly them. widowhood or to a perch. but majority start with young birds inorder to have old birds that flew in the competition. so to start most people need seperation from yb's and ob's. i notice alot more experienced fliers prefer old birds due to less training, learning how to manipulate them, as well as the distance fascinates most people. one reason there is less old birds than young birds is for that very same reason. you dont lose as many of them, so your team is smaller. they are more predictable.


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## Revolution Lofts

Thats a good point. A lot of people just don't have the room to fly OB's as well. Myself for example, I only have room for young birds. I have about 26 pairs of birds (half are racing pigeons/half are white homing pigeons), so I only have enough room to fly young birds. Any white homers that make it through the training as ybs will be kept to fly as OB's (I have a 8 X 4 section for them), but I have no OB section for the racing pigeons.

What I'm planning on doing is race the young birds out to about 350 miles (the furthest my club goes). And then send them off with a few semi-truck friends and get them to release them at 500 and 600 miles after the young bird season is over. I'm not going to be flying OB's anyway, so if I lose a few its not going to make my loft crumble. But basically, any and all healthy, non injured birds would be sent off to 600 miles (minimum) and see which ones get back. This way I fly the young bird season and get those racing results but at the same time I release them from a longer distance in small groups (5-10 birds) to see if they're actually smart or just followers. Plus it would just be my birds so its not like they'd be following someone elses birds home. 

After those 500 mile and 600 mile tosses, I can see who came back in a good time from the long distance and also flew well in the races and keep them for breeding purposes, the others (even if they did okay in the races and came back from the long distance tosses) would be given away.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> Point I am trying to make is the birds trained and raced at a distance be it 250 miles or 500 miles. SELECTION becomes the key. Then the loft improves. *Racing just YOUNG BIRD a person has less results to figure into a breeder bird. So there choice has to be harder*.


*Exactly !!!!* 

You only have nine races within a season in which to evaluate what you produce. I envy guys like Bob Bankert, who flies in same combine, but different club and state, as our combine covers 3 states, with no boundaries. Fanciers from New York and New Jersey could in theory fly in our races. Anyway he is outstanding flier who may typically take five years to evaluate a bird prior to breeding. Among AU & IF Champions, I held one of them that was awarded several 1st Place 500 Miles and 13 "500 On the Day" diplomas. 

After you get to see a bird after being up to bat 25 or 30 times, much easier I would think to figure out the really good ones. As compared to YB's where maybe you get 6 races to prove something ? That is why the hottest competition in our 130+ member combine is YB's. Not that way everywhere, but I made a bet in 2002 as to which direction it would go, as I wanted to be out in front, not left behind. Guys with great 600 mile day bird lines, have no where to race them in these here backward parts, and they are passing on.


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## lawman

Good posts all, it is interesting to see how peoples thinking process works and how they come to different conclusions. 

I personally fly the 395 concourse for one simple reason they offer long distance oldbird racing. The other option for me is the East Course Combine. however as Warren mentioned with his Combine they have come to a point where they only fly youngbirds and even that is only out to around 350 miles, some years they only go to 300. For me that simply is not enough distance to prove the birds worth. 

Yes you will know what race station(s) they flew the best at and if you have a cock and a hen that both flew those stations well, then its obvious that you should put them together and hopefully optain youngsters that do the same. It does work in that I've used this same method of breeding best to best and had good results but I have also found that over time unless you constantly intoduce new blood the numbers of good birds at a given race station goes down. 

The next thing you know your once hot racers are only flying average against the comptition. Yes there could be many factors involved, health, feed, weather, did they get vacinated at the right times ect. ect. but when you go back and find they are not flying to the same race stations as fast (when all conditions were the same) as the parents and grandparents did (no vigor or drive to come home) well your in deep doo doo.

I've personnally found that if I take an old bird racer that has flown all the way to the 500 and 600 mile race stations. That has also done well at the 200-350 mile stations (I.E. home right there with or just slightly slower than my speed birds) well then now you have something. You have a distance flier with the heart and drive to stay with or near the speed birds on the shorter races. 

Now hopfully you have a bird that can give his youngsters the homing ability of the distance birds along with the will and drive to pull out in front and fly it all alone (not just stay with the pack) on the shorter races when he is crossesd on the speed birds. 

Hey Warren perhaps the Thoughbred Horse guys need to go back and re-introduce the long distance Arabians (just a thought).

Now you have got something! Something worthy of being in the breeding loft.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

After something like 8 paragraphs to tell Lawman I agree with him, and some other ramblings. The most obvious lesson I take from horse industry is this (because I forgot to say it three posts ago.) 

$100 Billion Industry, with millions spent on "experts", who couldn't see a very outstanding race horse with their own two eyes. Northern Dancer was too small, maybe his eye color was wrong, or his tail was too long, his pedigree not as impressive. But at any rate "experts" couldn't tell he was any good, because they were looking for that "Perfect" horse, not a horse that can run fast. 

Why should we expect that pigeon fanciers are any different. That odd ball that sits over in the corner that you don't like very much cause maybe he has wrong wing and tail, too small, too big, etc. Did you ever catch yourself being a bit upset, cause your winning bird, was the wrong bird...the one you didn't like ?

Ever hold a bird a few extra seasons, just because you like it, not because it was producing better then what you already had, it just had the "look" you like ? 

Maybe lesson is outward attractiveness of a specimen shouldn't be trusted ?



I shut up now.


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## NZ Pigeon

re lee said:


> I do not think so. they flew the distance they wanted to fly.


I do not know many good sportsmen or competitors that base their strategical decisions purely on what they "want" thats just crazy.


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## lawman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> After something like 8 paragraphs to tell Lawman I agree with him, and some other ramblings. The most obvious lesson I take from horse industry is this (because I forgot to say it three posts ago.)
> 
> $100 Billion Industry, with millions spent on "experts", who couldn't see a very outstanding race horse with their own two eyes. Northern Dancer was too small, maybe his eye color was wrong, or his tail was too long, his pedigree not as impressive. But at any rate "experts" couldn't tell he was any good, because they were looking for that "Perfect" horse, not a horse that can run fast.
> 
> Why should we expect that pigeon fanciers are any different. That odd ball that sits over in the corner that you don't like very much cause maybe he has wrong wing and tail, too small, too big, etc. Did you ever catch yourself being a bit upset, cause your winning bird, was the wrong bird...the one you didn't like ?
> 
> Ever hold a bird a few extra seasons, just because you like it, not because it was producing better then what you already had, it just had the "look" you like ?
> 
> Maybe lesson is outward attractiveness of a specimen shouldn't be trusted ?
> 
> 
> 
> I shut up now.


Warren thats because Northern Dancer had that ellusive gene we all hope and pray for every time we put a pair together. 

The internal drive to get out in front and win!


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## soundmajorr

i follow horse racing weekly. as a matter fact the fancier in my club that is the best that just gifted me birds, owns a race horse that just won 1st place at 6 furlongs last week. but there is a lot of truth behind pedigrees. but there is also alot of truth behind trainers as well. an example would be this. why is that Bob Baffert is considered by most to be the best trainer in horse racing. He has the pick of his choice of who he wants to train when approached by a horse owner. He obviously goes based off of pedigree of the horse along with a million other reasons. but he picks his horses he wants to train, and then you can take into consideration of how good of a trainer he is. so i believe pedigrees are huge when knowing what exactly to look at. if you dont know what to look for and just go based off a big name then a pedigree wont do much. most people are just trying to buy the short route to success with out having the training that goes behind the big name.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/pdf/Mitochondrial-DNA-Explained.pdf

Silvio has written an article relevant to our discussion. I was tickled to see he is using race horses in this writing.


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> I do not know many good sportsmen or competitors that base their strategical decisions purely on what they "want" thats just crazy.


Well after you start racing your birds You sure might decide not to race over a certion distance. JUST AS many others do. And it sure is not crazy. Because people do it all the time.


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## NZ Pigeon

You said to another member that "you don't think so" about their comment, Its more likely to me that the jansenn bros used more than just wants in their decision making, I would imagine money was more influential as pointed out validly by another member. You may not think so but I think their comment was more than valid, And a lot more likely than yours.

by the way, I am racing my birds, Put a few in Old bird season last year


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## re lee

NZ Pigeon said:


> You said to another member that "you don't think so" about their comment, Its more likely to me that the jansenn bros used more than just wants in their decision making, I would imagine money was more influential as pointed out validly by another member. You may not think so but I think their comment was more than valid, And a lot more likely than yours.
> 
> by the way, I am racing my birds, Put a few in Old bird season last year


Glad you think that. Readup more on the Brothers They sure have alot of history Then decide did they just race the short race for money or did they also care very much about there birds. But lets not make this a pissing contest If you have something good to say about this threads needs say it. If not read it


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## NZ Pigeon

Sure, I was just pointing out that I agreed with the post you felt the need to try and shut down.


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## lawman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/pdf/Mitochondrial-DNA-Explained.pdf
> 
> Silvio has written an article relevant to our discussion. I was tickled to see he is using race horses in this writing.


Excellant article by Silvo, would highly recommend everyone take time to read it, print it out and keep it so they can re-read it over and over again.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Excellant article by Silvo, would highly recommend everyone take time to read it, print it out and keep it so they can re-read it over and over again.


 I can't remember when I first read this article, but I remember contacting him and thanking him for his article. I was thrilled, because for the first time, I had access to a well articulated article which supported my theory that there was some connection. 

If, for no other reason, it was apparent to me that the pigeon fancy in general, as in the horse game, have a bias towards the males. This provided me an opportunity to acquire exceptional females at a fraction of what their brothers might sell for. It was as much because of this economic reality, as much as any great theory I was adhering to. Thus I was able to acquire two sisters of National Champions for much less money then males with similar race records. 

Then when reviewing my family's forty years of breeding records going back to original foundations, there would appear to be evidence to support this theory of a sex linkage. And if nothing else, I figured how much harm could I possibility do to myself if more then 50% of the gems in my loft just happen to be female ? 

I found it to be one of those theories, at least for me, takes a lot more then a couple of reads. I must have read this article a dozen times, and yet every time I visit it, I seem to acquire additional insight. 

For a considerable number of generations I have attempted to build my breeding colony around this concept, even if my understanding of the reasons or theories may lack proof. I do believe my friend Silvo is indeed correct in terms of the quality of the females is critical, and generally speaking, at the very least are not afforded the level of appreciation or value as males, and this I am convinced is very much true.

Of course the practical issue for me personally, is even if I were to assume this idea is 100% true, I am not really sure how best to take advantage of this information.


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## loonecho

Fabulous article. Thanks for sharing. It has enlightended me and made me re-think my plans for developing a new line of birds. Not only that, it saved me $300this weekend as I was just about to pull the trigger on a cock that is an inbred decendant of Hollywood. From what I read, I might rather have a decendant of Hollywood's mother. Most likey never find one since the the family line has been built arround the exceptional male.

Jim


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## Xueoo

I don't know if one should be swayed by an opinion on an article. I never believed much in reading someone's opinion in an articles. Of course, not all articles are the same and one needs to judge for themselves. Everything that has ever been written about has been in practice since the time it began. For me, it goes back to “no one method is better than another“. 

Athletic performance, ability, the things that are not outwardly visible are things science can’t tell you. Science can only tell you what the likeliness could be if you put 1 & 1 together. Genes and traits can be added and subtracted based on breeding. What the genes are that correlate to performance, science can’t say. That is where a theory is “just another theory” and one can back it up with “my family did this and my family did that“ all they want, but, it’s just another opinion when it‘s all said and done.


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## lawman

Xueoo said:


> I don't know if one should be swayed by an opinion on an article. I never believed much in reading someone's opinion in an articles. Of course, not all articles are the same and one needs to judge for themselves. Everything that has ever been written about has been in practice since the time it began. For me, it goes back to “no one method is better than another“.
> 
> Athletic performance, ability, the things that are not outwardly visible are things science can’t tell you. Science can only tell you what the likeliness could be if you put 1 & 1 together. Genes and traits can be added and subtracted based on breeding. What the genes are that correlate to performance, science can’t say. That is where a theory is “just another theory” and one can back it up with “my family did this and my family did that“ all they want, but, it’s just another opinion when it‘s all said and done.


Your right! Anyone can right an article, however when someone of the caliber of Silvio Mataachione, or Steven Van Breeman wrights an article you need to take heed to what is said. Even if you ulimately only use bits and pieces of what they say you gain invaluable knowledge from their experience.

Both of these men are top fliers in their respective countries and have been for years now. go to www.silvio-co.com or to www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/ I don't follow ether exclusively but I have found valuable information freely given by both of these men. 

Xueoo perhaps one day you will be as well respected?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Your right! Anyone can right an article, however when someone of the caliber of Silvio Mataachione, or Steven Van Breeman wrights an article you need to take heed to what is said. Even if you ulimately only use bits and pieces of what they say you gain invaluable knowledge from their experience.
> 
> Both of these men are top fliers in their respective countries and have been for years now. go to www.silvio-co.com or to www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/ I don't follow ether exclusively but I have found valuable information freely given by both of these men.
> 
> Xueoo perhaps one day you will be as well respected?


 I confess, right, wrong, or indifferent. The foundations of my belief systems in regards to the building of families is firmly rooted in the writings and works of these two modern day Masters. I feel myself privileged to have been able to consult with them in the past, and hope I still can in the future. 

Xueoo is correct, in that anyone can write anything, and one can choose to believe what one wishes to believe. These two guys could in theory be 100% wrong, their reasoning could be wrong, their theory wrong. Perhaps in the future, advances in science and technology will produce evidence as to why they were wrong in their thinking. I realised that back in 2002 when I first became aware of their work. However, I liked their results. Not as much concerned with correctness of theory, if I can duplicate the results.

Besides, I personally didn't want to reinvent the wheel for at least a decade, as I'm not a kid anymore. I don't have fifty years of pigeon keeping in front of me, at least not in this world. So for me, I found, located, and contacted three of what I at least considered, "Grand Masters" of the sport. 

Silvio Mataachione, Steven Van Breeman and Ludo Claessens. I learned what I could, and still study and attempt to adhere to their methods, and I acquired some breeding stock from two of them. Maybe history some day will prove us all wrong, that is always a possibility. But, a man should have a hobby. My hobby within the pigeon game, is to try to mimic these three Grand Masters best I can, and a subset to that, and call me silly, producing a homozygous pure strain or at least as far as I can take it in my life time. 

There are any number of ideas one can follow. Maybe some like mine are crazy. Some may later be proven wrong, some right. When you need to travel 10+ generations, I just think it helps to have a plan, a road map if you will. The above three men helped me build mine. http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Mini_Course_The_Art_of_Breeding:Questions_&amp;_Answers

And to break it all down to a nut shell, even Steven would agree with Xueoo , as I share a small portion of Part I of the mini-breeding course.

http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Mini_Course_The_Art_of_Breeding:Part_1

Before starting, however, I would like to make it clear that the sport of pigeon racing is a hobby in which we try to find some relief from our daily worries and responsibilities. *There is no set of rules to tell anyone how to go about this hobby. Everyone should do what pleases him the most. It doesn't seem correct that there be laws to tell us how to get where we want to go. Never should we impose our opinions on someone else.* If you would like to become a champion, however, you have to give the hobby all you've got. For this reason you should learn as much as you can about the sport of racing pigeons whenever you have the opportunity. At the same time everyone has the right to take home with him whatever he considers to be the best ideas.
My intention is not to make up a set of rules but rather to provide you with some guidelines. These guidelines were given to me by the late Professor Alfons Anker from Kaposvar, Hungary. It was he who first got me interested in his life's work: population genetics, and subsequently is responsible for these articles. I would be more honest if we put his name, rather than mine, above every article. A second point I want to bring across is concerning the terminology of the different characteristics I have made, and here I am thankful for the use of certain passages from publications of Piet de Weerd. Often they provided me with that extra understanding into the essence of certain characteristics.
Even more light was shed on these matters when I was actually holding some of the prototypes Piet de Weerd had gathered. It's fair to conclude that Professor Anker's theories, combined with the practical work done by Piet de Weerd, supplemented by my own observations, from the foundation of my own breeding methods.
Finally, it is with all the pioneering done for the pigeon sport by Prof. Anker may put those fanciers on the road to success who are interested in the genetic approach to breeding techniques. This would have given him great pleasure. It was always the wish of Prof. Anker that he solve the "flying cross word puzzle"(this was his way of describing a pigeon as well as the title of his book). By way of these articles I hope to add an extra dimension to his labors. And to you readers, I wish a pleasant time solving the puzzles, and studying.
It is my intention to arouse the readers interest in genetic breeding techniques by way of this series of articles. Many are aware that my method is based on Prof. Anker's theory of population genetics. To start with let us define the words population genetics. Population genetics is a method of breeding which, by way of rigorous selection, followed by the use of rules according to which certain characteristics are transmitted within the population, tries to acquire a population improved in quality as well as quantity.
Example. Let's assume we're dealing with a constant population of 100, now as well as later (in our case it would involve a loft of pigeons). Next, we will set a goal such as top speed fliers, but we could also take fat birds or birds with red-coloured heads. After a few years of breeding, flying, selection, you have discovered what is your best stock and you have kept these. You keep building around this stock until you have reached your target of 100 birds. Percentage wise you will now have more good birds in your flock of 100 than you had in the original group. In the past I carefully considered which routes I should follow that I should be lead to success, and I did quite well. It was at this time that I first came in contact with Prof. Anker.
When circumstances prevented me from having my own pigeons, I decided that as soon as I had the opportunity, I would start a new and would do some extensive planning. What I mean by this is that I planned to breed according to a strictly drawn concept, without allowing any, or very few exceptions. And this I felt should bring me success. At that same time Prof. Anker invited me to spend the holidays with him, and I was more than happy to accept. Together with today's most famous "fond-matador" Ton Bollebakker, I stayed at Prof. Anker's for quite a while and both of us learned a great deal.
After returning to Holland I worked my notes into a system. I was so sure I was going to be successful(half of Hungary was breeding according to Prof. Anker's theories), I confidently re-wrote my notes into a few articles. After the publication of the first article I received a very enthusiastic review by the late Arie van den Hoek, author of the "Big Pigeon Book". In the second article I was probably too over-confident in predicting that as soon as I was ready for cross-breeding an "Ace Pigeon" of exception quality would be born in my loft.
It wasn't racing the products of my theories, and a remark like that was very much resented. As a result the rest of the articles were never published. Too bad, firstly, because even now I regularly receive communications from people who have had good success using the basic ideas found in that first article. And secondly, because a few years later I not only bred one, but a number of "Ace Pigeons", in fact good enough to be mentioned in the world pigeon Guinness Book of records.
Being able to support Prof. Anker's and my own theories with solid evidence, I now will present you with an updated version of the same articles. I say updated because also in our pigeon sport there is a need for revision at certain times.
Before I present you with my breeding methods I once more will lead you through the basic steps of population genetics. I'll come back to it again and again: we first have to become familiar with the elementary principles. For most fanciers this means some persistence in reading this duller material, although I have tried to put it before you in common, every day language. It's impossible to simply it any more which means that we have to do some studying, if we like it or not.
This is the only way to get ahead in our sport. The people who's hobbies are keeping Bantam chickens, canaries or rabbits, to mention only a few, also have to study a great deal to get to the top of the ladder in their respective hobbies or sports. The same goes for the racing pigeon sport. We should not only look to standards, but rather we should repeatedly study, one by one, the different characteristics which have an influence on the flying capabilities of a racing pigeon.
When our goal is the breeding of champion pigeons, what are the distinctive characteristics which should interest us the most??


----------



## lawman

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I confess, right, wrong, or indifferent. The foundations of my belief systems in regards to the building of families is firmly rooted in the writings and works of these two modern day Masters. I feel myself privileged to have been able to consult with them in the past, and hope I still can in the future.
> 
> Xueoo is correct, in that anyone can write anything, and one can choose to believe what one wishes to believe. These two guys could in theory be 100% wrong, their reasoning could be wrong, their theory wrong. Perhaps in the future, advances in science and technology will produce evidence as to why they were wrong in their thinking. I realised that back in 2002 when I first became aware of their work. However, I liked their results. Not as much concerned with correctness of theory, if I can duplicate the results.
> 
> Besides, I personally didn't want to reinvent the wheel for at least a decade, as I'm not a kid anymore. I don't have fifty years of pigeon keeping in front of me, at least not in this world. So for me, I found, located, and contacted three of what I at least considered, "Grand Masters" of the sport.
> 
> Silvio Mataachione, Steven Van Breeman and Ludo Claessens. I learned what I could, and still study and attempt to adhere to their methods, and I acquired some breeding stock from two of them. Maybe history some day will prove us all wrong, that is always a possibility. But, a man should have a hobby. My hobby within the pigeon game, is to try to mimic these three Grand Masters best I can, and a subset to that, and call me silly, producing a homozygous pure strain or at least as far as I can take it in my life time.
> 
> There are any number of ideas one can follow. Maybe some like mine are crazy. Some may later be proven wrong, some right. When you need to travel 10+ generations, I just think it helps to have a plan, a road map if you will. The above three men helped me build mine. http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Mini_Course_The_Art_of_Breeding:Questions_&amp;_Answers
> 
> And to break it all down to a nut shell, even Steven would agree with Xueoo , as I share a small portion of Part I of the mini-breeding course.
> 
> http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Mini_Course_The_Art_of_Breeding:Part_1
> 
> Before starting, however, I would like to make it clear that the sport of pigeon racing is a hobby in which we try to find some relief from our daily worries and responsibilities. *There is no set of rules to tell anyone how to go about this hobby. Everyone should do what pleases him the most. It doesn't seem correct that there be laws to tell us how to get where we want to go. Never should we impose our opinions on someone else.* If you would like to become a champion, however, you have to give the hobby all you've got. For this reason you should learn as much as you can about the sport of racing pigeons whenever you have the opportunity. At the same time everyone has the right to take home with him whatever he considers to be the best ideas.
> My intention is not to make up a set of rules but rather to provide you with some guidelines. These guidelines were given to me by the late Professor Alfons Anker from Kaposvar, Hungary. It was he who first got me interested in his life's work: population genetics, and subsequently is responsible for these articles. I would be more honest if we put his name, rather than mine, above every article. A second point I want to bring across is concerning the terminology of the different characteristics I have made, and here I am thankful for the use of certain passages from publications of Piet de Weerd. Often they provided me with that extra understanding into the essence of certain characteristics.
> Even more light was shed on these matters when I was actually holding some of the prototypes Piet de Weerd had gathered. It's fair to conclude that Professor Anker's theories, combined with the practical work done by Piet de Weerd, supplemented by my own observations, from the foundation of my own breeding methods.
> Finally, it is with all the pioneering done for the pigeon sport by Prof. Anker may put those fanciers on the road to success who are interested in the genetic approach to breeding techniques. This would have given him great pleasure. It was always the wish of Prof. Anker that he solve the "flying cross word puzzle"(this was his way of describing a pigeon as well as the title of his book). By way of these articles I hope to add an extra dimension to his labors. And to you readers, I wish a pleasant time solving the puzzles, and studying.
> It is my intention to arouse the readers interest in genetic breeding techniques by way of this series of articles. Many are aware that my method is based on Prof. Anker's theory of population genetics. To start with let us define the words population genetics. Population genetics is a method of breeding which, by way of rigorous selection, followed by the use of rules according to which certain characteristics are transmitted within the population, tries to acquire a population improved in quality as well as quantity.
> Example. Let's assume we're dealing with a constant population of 100, now as well as later (in our case it would involve a loft of pigeons). Next, we will set a goal such as top speed fliers, but we could also take fat birds or birds with red-coloured heads. After a few years of breeding, flying, selection, you have discovered what is your best stock and you have kept these. You keep building around this stock until you have reached your target of 100 birds. Percentage wise you will now have more good birds in your flock of 100 than you had in the original group. In the past I carefully considered which routes I should follow that I should be lead to success, and I did quite well. It was at this time that I first came in contact with Prof. Anker.
> When circumstances prevented me from having my own pigeons, I decided that as soon as I had the opportunity, I would start a new and would do some extensive planning. What I mean by this is that I planned to breed according to a strictly drawn concept, without allowing any, or very few exceptions. And this I felt should bring me success. At that same time Prof. Anker invited me to spend the holidays with him, and I was more than happy to accept. Together with today's most famous "fond-matador" Ton Bollebakker, I stayed at Prof. Anker's for quite a while and both of us learned a great deal.
> After returning to Holland I worked my notes into a system. I was so sure I was going to be successful(half of Hungary was breeding according to Prof. Anker's theories), I confidently re-wrote my notes into a few articles. After the publication of the first article I received a very enthusiastic review by the late Arie van den Hoek, author of the "Big Pigeon Book". In the second article I was probably too over-confident in predicting that as soon as I was ready for cross-breeding an "Ace Pigeon" of exception quality would be born in my loft.
> It wasn't racing the products of my theories, and a remark like that was very much resented. As a result the rest of the articles were never published. Too bad, firstly, because even now I regularly receive communications from people who have had good success using the basic ideas found in that first article. And secondly, because a few years later I not only bred one, but a number of "Ace Pigeons", in fact good enough to be mentioned in the world pigeon Guinness Book of records.
> Being able to support Prof. Anker's and my own theories with solid evidence, I now will present you with an updated version of the same articles. I say updated because also in our pigeon sport there is a need for revision at certain times.
> Before I present you with my breeding methods I once more will lead you through the basic steps of population genetics. I'll come back to it again and again: we first have to become familiar with the elementary principles. For most fanciers this means some persistence in reading this duller material, although I have tried to put it before you in common, every day language. It's impossible to simply it any more which means that we have to do some studying, if we like it or not.
> This is the only way to get ahead in our sport. The people who's hobbies are keeping Bantam chickens, canaries or rabbits, to mention only a few, also have to study a great deal to get to the top of the ladder in their respective hobbies or sports. The same goes for the racing pigeon sport. We should not only look to standards, but rather we should repeatedly study, one by one, the different characteristics which have an influence on the flying capabilities of a racing pigeon.
> When our goal is the breeding of champion pigeons, what are the distinctive characteristics which should interest us the most??


Well Said Warren!


----------



## First To Hatch

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Everyone has "good birds" and have birds with great pedigrees. The vast majority however, end up producing very average results. Pigeon racing and horse racing are both similar, in that huge prices are paid in order to acquire stock from famous racers.


You forgot to mention that those "famous" racers are often pretty good. If you want good pigeons you need to go to someone with good pigeons. However I am a believer that the "best" pigeons are probably owned by someone in their backyard that we have never heard of and probably never will!!!




SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And just like pigeon fanciers who like a certain kind of tail, wing, eye, etc. The same thing is true with horses. Northern Dancer was overlooked, or ignored, because he was little and didn't conform to what "expert" horse men thought a good race horse should look like.


After awhile, in a family I think you can figure out what a winner looks like, just like in some pairs that breed youngsters where only a certain color is good and the rest aren't. I'm not saying there is no exceptions to the rule, there is plenty. But I believe that at the end of the day that the good birds all handle a certain "way" and they'll be a few that don't handle like that but still can fly. If we think that a pigeon can look a certain way and fly fast we should get those birds. Not try everything under the sun, because of "that one race winner that handled really badly". I think a bird has to handle a certain way at the end of the day. 



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I also had to smile at the similarities in terms of a bias in favor of stallions and in cocks. There are many similarities if one looks for them. I guess the question is, what can we learn from this industry ? Just like pigeon fanciers who adhere to the theory of best to best, there are horsemen who follow that same line of thinking. I got a kick out of the page on this site under "Best to Best".


Stallions and cocks can put out more offspring that is why they are put on a higher pedestal than hens and mares. But I imagine that the male in every form of breeding animals whether it is cattle or dogs is held at a higher regard because of the ability to provide more offspring. 

I do not know if I personally go with the breeding best to best theory. I'll tell you one thing though, in the U.S. there is probably 600 races or more going on every weekend in the young bird season. 600 fliers each won a race, 600 different training methods, 600 different breeding practices. No matter what anyone says you can't mimic a certain practice that a fancier does it is impossible.

Now Warren, your always talking about world class pigeons and tell people to send their birds to one loft races. A lot of one loft events have turned into trapping events, especially some of these races with 100+ birds in a drop every week. Your pigeon isn't a world class pigeon if it was smart enough to follow 99 other pigeons. In one loft races I do not think that you can identify a "world class" pigeon. I view it as a venue to try and do good at to make some money to pay for your birds, or advertise that you won it to sell your birds for ridiculous amounts of money. Your always talking about world class pigeons I am curious to hear in your opinion on how do you figure out if it is world class?


An opinion of a 2 year pigeon flier,
Sho


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## First To Hatch

re lee said:


> I do not think so. they flew the distance they wanted to fly.


According to this interview I read you are right.

"Why don't you race long distance?
We hate long-distance races because there are too many risks for the birds and you loose them often. That our birds can do the job we have proved, but only to stop all that nonsense that our birds couldn't handle the distance. One time we shipped three birds to Chateauroux (575 km). We won first, second, and fourth in the club. "De Scherpen" we shipped to Montargis and Bordeaux (800 km) and he won two times first. Then the gossip was over. After that, we decided only to ship for the short and middle distances. That's what we like."

You can read the whole thing in this link:

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/janssen.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> ....... *I am curious to hear in your opinion on how do you figure out if it is world class?*
> 
> 
> An opinion of a 2 year pigeon flier,
> Sho


 If I were to ask you what a "World Class" Race Horse would be, or a "World Class" Chess Player, Golfer, Fighter, or anything else, what do you think it would be ?

I don't think we have to make it any more complicated then what it is. 

world-class 
adjective
1.
ranking among the world's best; outstanding: a world-class orchestra.
2.
attracting or comprising world-class players, performers, etc.: a world-class tennis tournament.
3.
Informal. being a notorious example of its kind: a world-class slob.

Find a One Loft event with International participants and class competition, and you may have yourself World Class competitors and a World Class winner.....or maybe not.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> *You forgot to mention that those "famous" racers are often pretty good.* If you want good pigeons you need to go to someone with good pigeons. However I am a believer that the "best" pigeons are probably owned by someone in their backyard that we have never heard of and probably never will!!!.......
> 
> 
> An opinion of a 2 year pigeon flier,
> Sho


 How else would a racer become famous, unless he was "pretty good" ? There are millions of racers in the world, how many of them can you name ? Most people know a name of a racer, because it won races. Thus saying they are "pretty good" just seems a bit redundant once one says they were famous. 

If the "best" pigeons are owned by someone we never heard of, and most likely never will, then how exactly good could the bird possibility be ? One would think the "best" would produce some winners, and if it did, you would think some people would know about it. How does one keep the best in the world, and keep it a secret ? Of course if one does already own the best, and doesn't know it, then chances are, it won't do him any good anyway.


----------



## re lee

First To Hatch said:


> According to this interview I read you are right.
> 
> "Why don't you race long distance?
> We hate long-distance races because there are too many risks for the birds and you loose them often. That our birds can do the job we have proved, but only to stop all that nonsense that our birds couldn't handle the distance. One time we shipped three birds to Chateauroux (575 km). We won first, second, and fourth in the club. "De Scherpen" we shipped to Montargis and Bordeaux (800 km) and he won two times first. Then the gossip was over. After that, we decided only to ship for the short and middle distances. That's what we like."
> 
> You can read the whole thing in this link:
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/janssen.htm


Glad you posted this and the link. Several here can read this LINK article And learn About there own idea of pigeon keeping from this I had read this before And it is a good read. I did get my first Janssen birds over 40 years ago. And back then They were becoming very popular. Gone is an area Of pigeon history Now


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## R-Tune

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> How else would a racer become famous, unless he was "pretty good" ? There are millions of racers in the world, how many of them can you name ? Most people know a name of a racer, because it won races. Thus saying they are "pretty good" just seems a bit redundant once one says they were famous.
> 
> If the "best" pigeons are owned by someone we never heard of, and most likely never will, then how exactly good could the bird possibility be ? One would think the "best" would produce some winners, and if it did, you would think some people would know about it. How does one keep the best in the world, and keep it a secret ? Of course if one does already own the best, and doesn't know it, then chances are, it won't do him any good anyway.


in my opinion the best (so called world class) is never herd of because i 
believe they just like very good pigeons and don't care about world class, money or publicity so therefore they could care less if they are known or not.. 
Where do u think world famous names like janssen bros, koopman, and whoever has birds named after them got a hold of there birds in the 1st place... From unknown fanciers that has no peds and know nothing of breeding programs, world class pigeons, or whatever, and so forth but are champions and that is where the great champions get there birds from and have birds named after them because of those no names or u can call it backyard fliers..



Defining a world class in a one loft race i dont think that's possible in IMHO. Cause they can be the fastest and toughest but who knows if they can home in since they are flying with a hundred other pigeons back to the same place..Who knows if they even got world class homing abilities if they are to fly by themselves... But on the other hand if they win more then one race time after time then i will consider them so called world class. In my opinion wining a one loft race one time doesn't mean they are world class pigeons..I call it luck....


in other words if i have an impressive pedigree with nothing but winners i can consider that my pigeons are world class pigeons without even breeding and racing them...?
And if my pigeons are over 1 grand or imported i can consider them world class pigeons...? very interesting never thought of that...


----------



## triple7loft

Again guys you are missing the big picture the Brothers raced for *money....*
Why would you send a bird 600 miles and then have to rest him for a week if he could fly two races a week and *win you money* !!!!!!!The money for them were in the short races.... 575km is only 357 miles 800km is 497 miles we arent talking 1000km or longer........Not trying to argue but the fact is the became filthy rich racing.......When you have the ability like they had then it becomes a very simple economic's issue........We all want to say they cared for there pigeons and didnt want to send them to the distance but the bottom line was the *MONEY* !!!!!!!!! Simple if you have a bird with a great record then he is value why would you risk loosing him ?




First To Hatch said:


> According to this interview I read you are right.
> 
> "Why don't you race long distance?
> We hate long-distance races because there are too many risks for the birds and you loose them often. That our birds can do the job we have proved, but only to stop all that nonsense that our birds couldn't handle the distance. One time we shipped three birds to Chateauroux (575 km). We won first, second, and fourth in the club. "De Scherpen" we shipped to Montargis and Bordeaux (800 km) and he won two times first. Then the gossip was over. After that, we decided only to ship for the short and middle distances. That's what we like."
> 
> You can read the whole thing in this link:
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/janssen.htm


----------



## triple7loft

Well R-Tune maybe you should look at the Sun City Million Dollar Pigeon Race.
I think this might be the World Class you speak of Warren....



R-Tune said:


> in my opinion the best (so called world class) is never herd of because i
> believe they just like very good pigeons and don't care about world class, money or publicity so therefore they could care less if they are known or not..
> Where do u think world famous names like janssen bros, koopman, and whoever has birds named after them got a hold of there birds in the 1st place... From unknown fanciers that has no peds and know nothing of breeding programs, world class pigeons, or whatever, and so forth but are champions and that is where the great champions get there birds from and have birds named after them because of those no names or u can call it backyard fliers..
> 
> 
> 
> Defining a world class in a one loft race i dont think that's possible in IMHO. Cause they can be the fastest and toughest but who knows if they can home in since they are flying with a hundred other pigeons back to the same place..Who knows if they even got world class homing abilities if they are to fly by themselves... But on the other hand if they win more then one race time after time then i will consider them so called world class. In my opinion wining a one loft race one time doesn't mean they are world class pigeons..I call it luck....
> 
> 
> in other words if i have an impressive pedigree with nothing but winners i can consider that my pigeons are world class pigeons without even breeding and racing them...?
> And if my pigeons are over 1 grand or imported i can consider them world class pigeons...? very interesting never thought of that...


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

triple7loft said:


> Well R-Tune maybe you should look at the Sun City Million Dollar Pigeon Race.
> I think this might be the World Class you speak of Warren....


 I was thinking of that one and the one in China where there are $4 Million in prizes and 7,000 entries. Bottom line, most can't agree what "World Class" is suppose to mean, or even "good". Which is why it is hard to come to any understanding, because any adjective used to describe a pigeon will have no universal meaning. Even the term "Winner" means almost nothing.

As long as there are no words anyone can agree to, I don't know how we ever advance beyond talking, so there is understanding, and then maybe someday we can actually get around to actually breeding better pigeons.


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## First To Hatch

R-Tune said:


> in my opinion the best (so called world class) is never herd of because i
> believe they just like very good pigeons and don't care about world class, money or publicity so therefore they could care less if they are known or not..
> Where do u think world famous names like janssen bros, koopman, and whoever has birds named after them got a hold of there birds in the 1st place... From unknown fanciers that has no peds and know nothing of breeding programs, world class pigeons, or whatever, and so forth but are champions and that is where the great champions get there birds from and have birds named after them because of those no names or u can call it backyard fliers..
> 
> 
> 
> Defining a world class in a one loft race i dont think that's possible in IMHO. Cause they can be the fastest and toughest but who knows if they can home in since they are flying with a hundred other pigeons back to the same place..Who knows if they even got world class homing abilities if they are to fly by themselves... But on the other hand if they win more then one race time after time then i will consider them so called world class. In my opinion wining a one loft race one time doesn't mean they are world class pigeons..I call it luck....
> 
> 
> in other words if i have an impressive pedigree with nothing but winners i can consider that my pigeons are world class pigeons without even breeding and racing them...?
> And if my pigeons are over 1 grand or imported i can consider them world class pigeons...? very interesting never thought of that...


That is the point that I was trying to make, thank you for saving me some typing!!!


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## First To Hatch

When we are talking about fanciers that don't get the recognition that they deserve I think one that can be thrown out there that many of us might know is Rick Nanez. He has placed well in many races and many people fly his birds and do very well with them as well. Yet we see his pigeons barely selling, and if they do they seem to go for less than $100. Then we see guys that might do half as well as Rick has in the past two years selling birds left and right for over $200. Whats up with that? Talk about not getting the recognition you deserve.


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## R-Tune

another one of my opinion is that i don't think u can compare racing pigeons to other sports because u are not there nor watch the racing pigeon flying home the entire journey and whip it to make it go faster so u never know what it is actually doing on the way home...
Since homers are trained to go to there loft u cant take them and compete the best with the best around the world cause they are all from different lofts..you cant take the best of the best and fly them in one course to see how good ur best stacks up against others around the world..By the time u know that u got a world class pigeon its already trained to home onto ur loft..So there fore u can never race the best with the best not like horses or other sports till u have only one victor racing in different race tracks .. 
FOR EXAMPLE 2 OF THE GREATEST PIGEON IN HISTORY 019 VS OLIEMAN.. WELL WE WILL NEVER KNOW CAUSE WE CANT PUT THEM IN A TRACK AND RACE THEM HEAD TO HEAD TO SEE WHICH ONE IS THE BEST BUT WE CAN ONLY GUESS AND ASSUME WHICH ONE IS THE BETTER ONE WITHOUT LETTING THEM RACE TILL ONLY ONE STANDS AS THE VICTOR..
Yea u can send what u think is gonna do good in one loft or a series of race but again that one u are sending is not proven and not the best yet..U are just hoping that it will win... If it does win... does that one win make it the best??????? maybe that year u got lucky because others with great birds didn't breed them great birds cause u get more bad ones then good ones even from great breeders and champions.. U just got lucky and bred a good one while other great breeders didn't breed any good ones for that one loft race or series..So does that make u have world class pigeons and ur pigeons are far superior to other great fanciers that entered in that race??? That is y i call it luck and not world class pigeons..

Great champions that has great birds that are put into history know nothing about genetics and breeding strategies. Yet many of them are the ones with great pigeons that make there mark in the pigeon history vs the ones that know about breeding genetics and breeding programs ( trying to breed that world class pigeon) hoping to be rich and famous...That is the way i see it..

The rich does not dominate and have world class pigeons only..Anyone can get a so called world class pigeon any time cause u never know what and when that world class pigeon can come from as long as u have good pigeons.. Even if u know nothing about breeding genetics and gene pools!!!!

.. What if u have good birds that can compete with the people who does a lot of one loft races but u dont have money to send them off so ur pigeons are not world class pigeons ? the people who does have money sends off hundreds each year and only one or 2 win makes them have world class pigeons??? lets say they send off 50 birds and 2 wins ... then they get a big name and advertisements all over and now all there pigeons in there loft are world class pigeons???? i think now days if u are rich and able to send hundreds off to one loft race then u will get a big name and that will make u have world class pigeons....Maybe that is y some fancier with great pigeons are not known cause they are not rich!!!! They cant afford to send even one pigeon to a one loft race even if they have good pigeons so there fore they are unknown and do not have world class pigeons... so sad...


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## triple7loft

Yep Rick is on the top of the list his late hatches sell for less but call and ask about some stuff out of his best and you will see they are priced up there as well..





First To Hatch said:


> When we are talking about fanciers that don't get the recognition that they deserve I think one that can be thrown out there that many of us might know is Rick Nanez. He has placed well in many races and many people fly his birds and do very well with them as well. Yet we see his pigeons barely selling, and if they do they seem to go for less than $100. Then we see guys that might do half as well as Rick has in the past two years selling birds left and right for over $200. Whats up with that? Talk about not getting the recognition you deserve.


----------



## lawman

R-Tune said:


> another one of my opinion is that i don't think u can compare racing pigeons to other sports because u are not there nor watch the racing pigeon flying home the entire journey and whip it to make it go faster so u never know what it is actually doing on the way home...
> Since homers are trained to go to there loft u cant take them and compete the best with the best around the world cause they are all from different lofts..you cant take the best of the best and fly them in one course to see how good ur best stacks up against others around the world..By the time u know that u got a world class pigeon its already trained to home onto ur loft..So there fore u can never race the best with the best not like horses or other sports till u have only one victor racing in different race tracks ..
> FOR EXAMPLE 2 OF THE GREATEST PIGEON IN HISTORY 019 VS OLIEMAN.. WELL WE WILL NEVER KNOW CAUSE WE CANT PUT THEM IN A TRACK AND RACE THEM HEAD TO HEAD TO SEE WHICH ONE IS THE BEST BUT WE CAN ONLY GUESS AND ASSUME WHICH ONE IS THE BETTER ONE WITHOUT LETTING THEM RACE TILL ONLY ONE STANDS AS THE VICTOR..
> Yea u can send what u think is gonna do good in one loft or a series of race but again that one u are sending is not proven and not the best yet..U are just hoping that it will win... If it does win... does that one win make it the best??????? maybe that year u got lucky because others with great birds didn't breed them great birds cause u get more bad ones then good ones even from great breeders and champions.. U just got lucky and bred a good one while other great breeders didn't breed any good ones for that one loft race or series..So does that make u have world class pigeons and ur pigeons are far superior to other great fanciers that entered in that race??? That is y i call it luck and not world class pigeons..
> 
> Great champions that has great birds that are put into history know nothing about genetics and breeding strategies. Yet many of them are the ones with great pigeons that make there mark in the pigeon history vs the ones that know about breeding genetics and breeding programs ( trying to breed that world class pigeon) hoping to be rich and famous...That is the way i see it..
> 
> The rich does not dominate and have world class pigeons only..Anyone can get a so called world class pigeon any time cause u never know what and when that world class pigeon can come from as long as u have good pigeons.. Even if u know nothing about breeding genetics and gene pools!!!!
> 
> .. What if u have good birds that can compete with the people who does a lot of one loft races but u dont have money to send them off so ur pigeons are not world class pigeons ? the people who does have money sends off hundreds each year and only one or 2 win makes them have world class pigeons??? lets say they send off 50 birds and 2 wins ... then they get a big name and advertisements all over and now all there pigeons in there loft are world class pigeons???? i think now days if u are rich and able to send hundreds off to one loft race then u will get a big name and that will make u have world class pigeons....Maybe that is y some fancier with great pigeons are not known cause they are not rich!!!! They cant afford to send even one pigeon to a one loft race even if they have good pigeons so there fore they are unknown and do not have world class pigeons... so sad...


R-Tune,

I don't know how long you've been racing pigeons or involved in any other sport involving animals, raised on a farm or in the big city. 

But what I do know is there was a time when I probably sounded much like you do now. 

By that I mean that I thought I knew all the answers only to find out in time that I probably needed to listen more and study more before I spoke up and put my foot in my mouth.

Most of the top performers your bagging on started out with little or nothing and worked with their birds (learned how to breed and fly them), and made a name for themselves. They became the top fliers in their respective countries in the process. When these men speak of what they know and how they manage their birds, please try to be quite and listen carefully to what they say. Your right in that their way of doing things won’t work for everyone. But if you come out of it with a little more insight into how to manage your loft or train your birds. What have you lost? Nothing and you and everyone else has much to gain. 

Now there are some in the USA and abroad that had money went out and literally bought some of the most expensive birds available and have loft managers who do all the work. They made a name for themselves in the process, but not from their own labor just buy throwing their money at the project. However they are the exception rather than the rule in the pigeon world. 

This second group of people I don’t listen too ether. But to the first group you owe more than a little respect and you may want to show it from time to time by asking questions rather than spouting off like an arrogant child.


----------



## Crazy Pete

This thread is proof, if you get 10 pigeon people in the same room you will get 10 answers. Keep it up, I have enjoyed this thread, and if you can glean one thing out of it, it is a good day.
Dave


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## raftree3

Dave: Are you in on the Sun City race this year. I noticed Eastern Nebraska did well on this last training race and Ruddy Svoboda did really well.


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## Crazy Pete

Yes Rudy and I have a teem there, we bought birds from the Sun City auction and they raised the birds for us. Plus we have birds there with Alex Bieche, it pretty exiting having birds in the race.
Dave


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## Xueoo

First To Hatch said:


> When we are talking about fanciers that don't get the recognition that they deserve I think one that can be thrown out there that many of us might know is Rick Nanez. He has placed well in many races and many people fly his birds and do very well with them as well. Yet we see his pigeons barely selling, and if they do they seem to go for less than $100. Then we see guys that might do half as well as Rick has in the past two years selling birds left and right for over $200. Whats up with that? Talk about not getting the recognition you deserve.


I think the reason that may be is because his birds are still too close to the breeders he got them from, ie, parents with other loft bands such as CBS and others. I don't know him so I can only go by his public record and pedigrees. He wins his share. Seems he buys and sells a ton as well. When you do that, your value won't be as high because a buyer can go straight to the source and get the same birds as he has. Again, I don't know him or his business so I can only go by what he's bringing in and selling out.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> R-Tune,
> 
> I don't know how long you've been racing pigeons or involved in any other sport involving animals, raised on a farm or in the big city.
> 
> But what I do know is there was a time when I probably sounded much like you do now.
> 
> By that I mean that I thought I knew all the answers only to find out in time that I probably needed to listen more and study more before I spoke up and put my foot in my mouth.
> 
> Most of the top performers your bagging on started out with little or nothing and worked with their birds (learned how to breed and fly them), and made a name for themselves. They became the top fliers in their respective countries in the process. When these men speak of what they know and how they manage their birds, please try to be quite and listen carefully to what they say. Your right in that their way of doing things won’t work for everyone. But if you come out of it with a little more insight into how to manage your loft or train your birds. What have you lost? Nothing and you and everyone else has much to gain.
> 
> Now there are some in the USA and abroad that had money went out and literally bought some of the most expensive birds available and have loft managers who do all the work. They made a name for themselves in the process, but not from their own labor just buy throwing their money at the project. However they are the exception rather than the rule in the pigeon world.
> 
> This second group of people I don’t listen too ether. But to the first group you owe more than a little respect and you may want to show it from time to time by asking questions rather than spouting off like an arrogant child.


 Semantic's always seems to get in the way. If we don't use the term "World Class" because it is not precise enough, then let us use another term, such as "Exceptional" or if that fails, let us use whatever term might be applied to those birds whose race record, would place it in the top 2% of the world population. If a bird was hatched with a number on it's head, then we could simply refer to the number. 

Part of the issue, as I see it, there is no real uniform way in which to measure a bird around the world. A reader of these pages, may own for example a YB which won four 1st place events. Hard to imagine winning a race event which would be considered by all to be a "world class" based on some posts. So, I have no idea how anyone would measure a club or combine event with fewer then say a thousand entries. If the wind was blowing in your direction, and one was off the line of flight on the short end, who is to say what that win really meant ? Same with any other race or event, although some events, most of us experienced fanciers would apply some measure of credit for the overall winner of a YB event like in say the South African Million Dollar Race, the Triple Crown, Vegas Classic, etc. Even if from an academic point of view, one argues that there is no such thing as a YB Champion, because said fancier wants 25 1st Place Wins before he or she declares a bird "World Class".

So, if it helps, don't use the term "World Class" use some specific measuring tool, such as ACE, AU or IF Champion, Winner of this major race, or that, etc. 
Bottom line, by whatever name one wishes to use, I am talking about the very top tier of racing pigeons. One way people may measure things such as the "top" property, race horse, racing pigeon, diamond, or any other rare thing in the world, is to allow people to place a price on it. The top of anything, typically comes with a price to help measure it's rarity and value. 

In terms of pigeons. It is not a perfect measuring tool for sure, but for lack of a tool better then price, I would say that most racing pigeons which can command just for sake of discussion, pick your number....say $5000 and up, at a public auction has a good chance of being considered a "World Class" racing pigeon. As in everything else in life, there are always exceptions. 

Perhaps one can find one selling on PiPa for more then $5000 which everyone can agree is just a very common pigeon, but more often then not, the market get's it right. Now perhaps you will argue this bird is not "World Class" and wish to use some other term. But, this is at least the neighborhood of the kinds of birds I am talking about. If you can find such a bird in some unknown fanciers back yard for free or for $100 I say buy it !

http://www.pipa.be/en/pigeons-for-s...s-nl-total-auction-without-raced-yb-2012-en/1


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## SmithFamilyLoft

And in the below example of "Fast Red", and I know at least half or more of readers will say ""He's not worth it" and will favor free pigeons from an unknown fancier, the one point I have tried to make, is we look at this winning bird's sister, generating 1/10th the interest of her famous brother (with pretty good race record), where as wealthy Chinese businessman might acquire the cock, I have in the past, tended to go with a much less expensive sister. Is she "World Class" most likely not, but her brother is, and for the price, I am willing to bet she can produce as good as him. 

Perhaps a lesson we can take from race horses ?

http://www.pipa.be/en/pigeons-for-s...s-nl-total-auction-without-raced-yb-2012-en/1


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## R-Tune

lawman said:


> R-Tune,
> 
> I don't know how long you've been racing pigeons or involved in any other sport involving animals, raised on a farm or in the big city.
> 
> But what I do know is there was a time when I probably sounded much like you do now.
> 
> By that I mean that I thought I knew all the answers only to find out in time that I probably needed to listen more and study more before I spoke up and put my foot in my mouth.
> 
> Most of the top performers your bagging on started out with little or nothing and worked with their birds (learned how to breed and fly them), and made a name for themselves. They became the top fliers in their respective countries in the process. When these men speak of what they know and how they manage their birds, please try to be quite and listen carefully to what they say. Your right in that their way of doing things won’t work for everyone. But if you come out of it with a little more insight into how to manage your loft or train your birds. What have you lost? Nothing and you and everyone else has much to gain.
> 
> Now there are some in the USA and abroad that had money went out and literally bought some of the most expensive birds available and have loft managers who do all the work. They made a name for themselves in the process, but not from their own labor just buy throwing their money at the project. However they are the exception rather than the rule in the pigeon world.
> 
> This second group of people I don’t listen too ether. But to the first group you owe more than a little respect and you may want to show it from time to time by asking questions rather than spouting off like an arrogant child.


i never said i knew all the answers or know everything but its just my opinon and perspective on how i see pigeon racing these days... i get my opinions and coclusions from experince, listening to others, reseaching , and last of all reading...Maybe im right maybe im not but its leading me on the right track ...I belive that most of the top performers know where to go get there stock from... so its not like they didnt start out with noting at all or with scrubs.. They are just smarter then us,,I read almost every ad sherlacken article and i think he is right about what he writes in his article and what he thinks about pigeon these days,.,. My own experience makes me see what he writes and opens my eyes.. even this topic here made me relize what ad writes and makes me see with my own eyes.. 
as u see i do not post a lot like i am an expert.. i sit back and read what people post , say and observe what people think in this forum and other forum.. this is actually my 1st time posting up my opinons since i joined in 2010 .. I dont know, maybe i am an arrgorant child.... ill keep my comments and thoughts to myself cause im not an expert nor vetern pigeon flier...i am just someone who wants very good pigeons and maybe someday world class pigeons,,


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## lawman

R-Tune said:


> i never said i knew all the answers or know everything but its just my opinon and perspective on how i see pigeon racing these days... i get my opinions and coclusions from experince, listening to others, reseaching , and last of all reading...Maybe im right maybe im not but its leading me on the right track ...I belive that most of the top performers know where to go get there stock from... so its not like they didnt start out with noting at all or with scrubs.. They are just smarter then us,,I read almost every ad sherlacken article and i think he is right about what he writes in his article and what he thinks about pigeon these days,.,. My own experience makes me see what he writes and opens my eyes.. even this topic here made me relize what ad writes and makes me see with my own eyes..
> as u see i do not post a lot like i am an expert.. i sit back and read what people post , say and observe what people think in this forum and other forum.. this is actually my 1st time posting up my opinons since i joined in 2010 .. I dont know, maybe i am an arrgorant child.... ill keep my comments and thoughts to myself cause im not an expert nor vetern pigeon flier...i am just someone who wants very good pigeons and maybe someday world class pigeons,,



Try asking question or asking for clarification on something if its rubbing against the grain. you may just find other ways of doing things that helps you get over the huge wall your trying to climb in the world of racing pigeons.


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## triple7loft

Rick spares no expense in getting race winners or money winners in the one loft races, he also buys late hatches and saves a lot of money buy doing this as well. He is running his program as best to best performance based pigeons..
Right or wrong he is winning some OLR as well......




Xueoo said:


> I think the reason that may be is because his birds are still too close to the breeders he got them from, ie, parents with other loft bands such as CBS and others. I don't know him so I can only go by his public record and pedigrees. He wins his share. Seems he buys and sells a ton as well. When you do that, your value won't be as high because a buyer can go straight to the source and get the same birds as he has. Again, I don't know him or his business so I can only go by what he's bringing in and selling out.


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## soundmajorr

If anyone has received siegels latest catalog. He has an article regarding breeding. He mentions how important hens are as well as in the horse racing industry they are just now figuring this out. Thought I would throw this out there.


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## raftree3

In the horse business, mares that have produced more than one Stakes Winner or something of equal value is referred to as a "Blue Hen". If a mare is really exceptional she's referred to as a "Reine De Course". Which means Queen of the Turf. They've always been recognized for there value. Check www.reines-de-course.com for some interesting reading if you just replace the word horse with pigeon when needed.


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## Xueoo

Stick to breeding a better pigeon and leave the horse comparision to something else. Two different animal.


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## NZ Pigeon

Two different animals maybe but both expected to race so surely there are some similaritires that can be shared across the two species.


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## Xueoo

One races, one flies home. One has millions backing it up. One is bred in a shed my grandpa who also also has a few donkeys out back. The pigeons can win him a race. Try running the donkey...


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## R-Tune

u can compare pigeon breeding wise with horses or whatever just in the breeding department.. but not performance wise as they are 2 diffrent animals with 2 diffrent race method and the way that they are race are totally different..


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## ERIC K

One thing I read off the web site raftree3 posted this: " The problem now , however , is exacerbated by a total lack of diversity with which to effect outcrosses" and " How often are Americans called a melting pot? Well, we have melted down the pot in the Thorughbred horse to pretty much Northern Dancer and Raise a Native lines ( which have in common the unsoundness of Native Dancer)" I guess the whole inbreeding thing went too far in Thorughbred Horse's according to the writer. 

I was thinking that many in the sport of Pigeons spend too much time and waisted effort in the inbreeding of their Pigeons instead of looking for better birds to bring into their mix and make new crosses. Like Ad Schaerlaeckens said that all the super racing birds where he lives are crosses. Look at his pedigree and they are all crosses from a few different familys.


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## lawman

ERIC K said:


> One thing I read off the web site raftree3 posted this: " The problem now , however , is exacerbated by a total lack of diversity with which to effect outcrosses" and " How often are Americans called a melting pot? Well, we have melted down the pot in the Thorughbred horse to pretty much Northern Dancer and Raise a Native lines ( which have in common the unsoundness of Native Dancer)" I guess the whole inbreeding thing went too far in Thorughbred Horse's according to the writer.
> 
> I was thinking that many in the sport of Pigeons spend too much time and waisted effort in the inbreeding of their Pigeons instead of looking for better birds to bring into their mix and make new crosses. Like Ad Schaerlaeckens said that all the super racing birds where he lives are crosses. Look at his pedigree and they are all crosses from a few different familys.


Your correct in that all Thoroughbred horses can trace their linage back to three foundation sires and guess what they were.... Arabians.... They were the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian, the Byerley Turk (also of Arabian blood). 

If we Racing Homer enthusiests do not observe this and witness what has happened in our sport that like it or not has many comparisons to Thoroughbred horse racing. The only way to ultimately save the thoroughbred is going to be obtaining top racing stock from outside their own bloodlines. From Arabian, Quarter horse and even the American Appaloosa.

We see the same thing happening today in the pigeons, someone has a son or grandson or great grandson from a champion racer and all you see in the adds for their offspring is the ancestors pedigree and race record because the bird for sale was guess what never raced and it will say bred for stock. people inbreeding mediocre pigeons then selling their offspring for a kings ransom. Then the next guy inbreeding to the same line. continuing to inbreed and inbreed without ever testing the young or bringing in the occasional ourcross to keep the vigor of the bloodline from being lost. go to stevenvanbreeman.nl
then click on his book "hints for mating , breeding and selection" he talks about this very thing. I would advise everyone to at least read what he has to say.

As for those of you who dont like comparisons to Thoroughbreds, I say simply get over yourselves. The comparisons are there whether we look at horse racing, Dog racing, heck even to humans that compete in the olympics or any sport for that matter. there are similarities that should be observed, noted and retained for future referance. 

Those who chose not to observe and note the comparisons, well I invite you to come fly against me and we will see who is right. Better yet stay where your at and I'll help out one of your clubmates and after he or she beats your pants off. You'll come begging for more information. But at that point hope I don't tell you to go talk to your mate.


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## R-Tune

lawman said:


> Your correct in that all Thoroughbred horses can trace their linage back to three foundation sires and guess what they were.... Arabians.... They were the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian, the Byerley Turk (also of Arabian blood).
> 
> If we Racing Homer enthusiests do not observe this and witness what has happened in our sport that like it or not has many comparisons to Thoroughbred horse racing. The only way to ultimately save the thoroughbred is going to be obtaining top racing stock from outside their own bloodlines. From Arabian, Quarter horse and even the American Appaloosa.
> 
> We see the same thing happening today in the pigeons, someone has a son or grandson or great grandson from a champion racer and all you see in the adds for their offspring is the ancestors pedigree and race record because the bird for sale was guess what never raced and it will say bred for stock. people inbreeding mediocre pigeons then selling their offspring for a kings ransom. Then the next guy inbreeding to the same line. continuing to inbreed and inbreed without ever testing the young or bringing in the occasional ourcross to keep the vigor of the bloodline from being lost. go to stevenvanbreeman.nl
> then click on his book "hints for mating , breeding and selection" he talks about this very thing. I would advise everyone to at least read what he has to say.
> 
> As for those of you who dont like comparisons to Thoroughbreds, I say simply get over yourselves. The comparisons are there whether we look at horse racing, Dog racing, heck even to humans that compete in the olympics or any sport for that matter. there are similarities that should be observed, noted and retained for future referance.
> 
> Those who chose not to observe and note the comparisons, well I invite you to come fly against me and we will see who is right. Better yet stay where your at and I'll help out one of your clubmates and after he or she beats your pants off. You'll come begging for more information. But at that point hope I don't tell you to go talk to your mate.


 u have world class pigeons too...thats good to know... peolple are just giving out there thoughts and opinion weather its right or not...notting wrong with that..Nothing is ever set in stone and same goes with breeding wise.. People do what ever floats there boat.. maybe someone who u think its wrong might be right who knows... i know for a fact is that when u mate u get a offspring.. Not saying that u are wrong or anything..Most likely u are right in a way... I wouuld love to compete one of my not world class pigeon with a world class pigeon to see how it stacks up to a world class pigeon..

doing selective breeding and choosing there mate does that mean that ur birds are better then someone who dont? i dont know and i dont think so as some great names dont pair there birds anymore.. they let the birds choose themselves and turns out tha they get more better offsprings.. It tickles me to deaf when people that dont know how to breed a super bird are the people with super birds and they claim they know nothing,,


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## First To Hatch

I just breed pigeons to each other and expect a fast one, I don't about you guys all this talk can make my brain hurt.


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## R-Tune

First To Hatch said:


> I just breed pigeons to each other and expect a fast one, I don't about you guys all this talk can make my brain hurt.


lol..i think its interesting reading what people have to say... if it was easy as to follow a breeding method to get super birds everyone will have super birds...It works somewhat and somewhat not...thankgod,,, then only the rich will have super pigeons and the poor will have scrubs,....


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## triple7loft

Yea I bet thats what you do 



First To Hatch said:


> I just breed pigeons to each other and expect a fast one, I don't about you guys all this talk can make my brain hurt.


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## R-Tune

triple7loft said:


> Yea I bet thats what you do


hey thats what i do too..


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## re lee

R-TUNE post /doing selective breeding and choosing there mate does that mean that ur birds are better then someone who dont? i dont know and i dont think so as some great names dont pair there birds anymore.. they let the birds choose themselves and turns out tha they get more better offsprings.. It tickles me to deaf when people that dont know how to breed a super bird are the people with super birds and they claim they know nothing,,[/QUOTE]

Sure a person could for a SHORT time just let there birds pair on there own And raise a decent bird or two. But left to there own over time The results would fade rathere faster. NOW IF you had rathere good birds and let them pick and then maintained Only the best Then one could for a little longer let them pair. BUT selective breeding has been the best way for about every thing man has bred.. THE real Problem is Selling thoses lesser birds. If a solid person/breeder Sold only Birds they would be willing to use. Or at least raced birds that did well And kept only the best NEEDED for there self. then better birdss would be spread around. BUT they to would be in shorter numbers. When only about 5 out of 100 young birds raised each year are the best performers Then up to 15 more are useable Giving 20 total and that number is high. And the best birds still through 75 percent CULLS. No where can the best birds throw in say 3 rounds 6 birds And all 6 be good birds. When 1 to 2 may be and some years not even 1 is a keeper. But rather then admit it the birds get sold . AS race birds go You see what you can see. But you can not see there drive to get home. It is only seen in there race record. And the best drive has been widow hood As methods goes. Anybody over time just letting there birds pair wildly NOt putting certion KEY birds in a breeding loft But just pairing wildly You will see the down hill decline. And anybody just pairing winner to winner see a rough time. Pigeons will revert backwards if left alone to piar on there own.


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## R-Tune

re lee said:


> doing selective breeding and choosing there mate does that mean that ur birds are better then someone who dont? i dont know and i dont think so as some great names dont pair there birds anymore.. they let the birds choose themselves and turns out tha they get more better offsprings.. It tickles me to deaf when people that dont know how to breed a super bird are the people with super birds and they claim they know nothing,,
> 
> Sure a person could for a SHORT time just let there birds pair on there own And raise a decent bird or two. But left to there own over time The results would fade rathere faster. NOW IF you had rathere good birds and let them pick and then maintained Only the best Then one could for a little longer let them pair. BUT selective breeding has been the best way for about every thing man has bred.. THE real Problem is Selling thoses lesser birds. If a solid person/breeder Sold only Birds they would be willing to use. Or at least raced birds that did well And kept only the best NEEDED for there self. then better birdss would be spread around. BUT they to would be in shorter numbers. When only about 5 out of 100 young birds raised each year are the best performers Then up to 15 more are useable Giving 20 total and that number is high. And the best birds still through 75 percent CULLS. No where can the best birds throw in say 3 rounds 6 birds And all 6 be good birds. When 1 to 2 may be and some years not even 1 is a keeper. But rather then admit it the birds get sold . AS race birds go You see what you can see. But you can not see there drive to get home. It is only seen in there race record. And the best drive has been widow hood As methods goes. Anybody over time just letting there birds pair wildly NOt putting certion KEY birds in a breeding loft But just pairing wildly You will see the down hill decline. And anybody just pairing winner to winner see a rough time. Pigeons will revert backwards if left alone to piar on there own.


yup thats what i feel and agree.. u gotta have very good pigeons 1st to make anything happen... I think that is where the problem lies in breeding very good pigeons... u need very good pigeons 1st... i think thats the poroblem right there ...the missing equation to breeding very good pigeons regardless how ur breeding program is.. if u dont have very good pigeons no matter what u do ur not gonna have anything good... that was my opionon what i was trying to say..


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## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> R-TUNE post /doing selective breeding and choosing there mate does that mean that ur birds are better then someone who dont? i dont know and i dont think so as some great names dont pair there birds anymore.. they let the birds choose themselves and turns out tha they get more better offsprings.. It tickles me to deaf when people that dont know how to breed a super bird are the people with super birds and they claim they know nothing,,


Sure a person could for a SHORT time just let there birds pair on there own And raise a decent bird or two. But left to there own over time The results would fade rathere faster. NOW IF you had rathere good birds and let them pick and then maintained Only the best Then one could for a little longer let them pair. BUT selective breeding has been the best way for about every thing man has bred.. THE real Problem is Selling thoses lesser birds. If a solid person/breeder Sold only Birds they would be willing to use. Or at least raced birds that did well And kept only the best NEEDED for there self. then better birdss would be spread around. BUT they to would be in shorter numbers. When only about 5 out of 100 young birds raised each year are the best performers Then up to 15 more are useable Giving 20 total and that number is high. And the best birds still through 75 percent CULLS. No where can the best birds throw in say 3 rounds 6 birds And all 6 be good birds. When 1 to 2 may be and some years not even 1 is a keeper. But rather then admit it the birds get sold . AS race birds go You see what you can see. But you can not see there drive to get home. It is only seen in there race record. And the best drive has been widow hood As methods goes. Anybody over time just letting there birds pair wildly NOt putting certion KEY birds in a breeding loft But just pairing wildly You will see the down hill decline. And anybody just pairing winner to winner see a rough time. Pigeons will revert backwards if left alone to piar on there own.[/QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would think that your general idea is pretty much accepted as factual by many in the fancy. I suspect however that they would be wrong, and here is my reasoning as to why. 

I suspect the reason why some really well known expert type fanciers have said they let individual pigeons select their mates, is because they as the fancier, have already selected the qualities they want in their colony by determining which specimens are allowed to breed in the first place. 

They are managing their selection process from the colony level and not the individual pair level. And if one considers the mathematical odds of pairing the birds in such a way as to produce more Ace or Champion pigeons, one can see where at some level it is such a roll of the genetic dice, how would one know if the Champ which was produced was not just pure dumb luck, then any particular skill of the fancier other then placing great hens and cocks into the same breeding loft ? Perhaps there is a "World Class" p) pairing expert, who can look at two crates, one containing 20 superb breeding hens, each one who has won races and bred winners, and another crate of equally great breeding cocks, and say with certainty, which hen should be bred to which cock. How many possible combinations in any breeding year are there from this example ? Math people who actually paid attention and did homework ? It is not really 20 x 20 = 400 possible combinations is it ? 

I don't know how many hundreds of hours I "invested" just this past decade, staying up at night, studying pedigrees, race records, looking and studying birds etc. And I have no idea if I was 90% right or wrong, I be happy if it was right just 50% of the time. And most of that time, was spent just trying to figure out the ideal pairing of fewer then a dozen pairs. The more pairs one owns, the greater the odds increase that one is just as likely to get it wrong. Could just be me, but some of my success was due to "accidental" pairings. 

Now, I guess I should say it again. Those fanciers who I know employ at least to some degree (one does not have to let birds select 100% of pairings), are....well let's just say "very" selective in what birds are used for breeding.* I firmly believe that to a very large degree, the measure of breeding greatness, is in direct proportion to the amount of selective pressure applied to their colony of pigeons. *The great Ludo Claessens who was very competitive in both YB's and OB's would reduce his colony to just 30 pigeons over the winter and kept no prisoners. I have no idea if he selected every pairing or not. I am no Ludo Claessen, the odds of me pairing those remaining hens and cocks the same exact way, or the ideal way if the two are not the same, are very low. 

I suspect, or believe, that the success in my personal case, will have more to do with the individual quality of the individual birds, and the roll of genetic dice, then my skill at determining the most ideal pairings of the birds available. My contribution in any positive way, will most likely be to insure that only the best specimens available to me are permitted to reproduce. Maybe a good fancier has those skills to make the most ideal pairings, but unfortunately, I may not be that fancier.


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## Revolution Lofts

In simple words, I think Warren has a valid point. If a fanciers entire breeding stock has been selected at an extreme level to a point where every single bird in the loft is equal or better than the next, picking which cock to pair with which hen and produce exceptional birds is just a chance of luck.

I think the entire pigeon racing sport is a chance of luck. Even birds that have gotten 1st place against a large number of birds numerous times can fail to produce a single good young bird. 

The best possible thing you can do, is ensure every bird in the breeding loft is good, whatever your "good" is. That way, no matter what birds you pair up, you'll still get a close enough answer to how good your birds really are.

*One bird does not make or break your loft. *

Thats what I tell myself every time I give a bird away. If that was indeed the case, then my selective breeding has no merit and my credibility can go down the drain.

To counter this, every single bird should be a team member. 

It's like professional sports, example: A football team. You might have the best QB in the league, but if your linebackers and receivers can't do their job, you'll never win the super bowl.

You basically want to create a machine, where each part has its own job - each pigeon has its own job.

To truly be successful, a fancier should always have a few good long distance birds to compliment your sprinters. Sometimes you need that extra something those distance birds have, to come in front of the peoples birds who breed sprinters and can't handle a headwind and cloudy skies to save their lives. 

Every bird should have a role. It's like running a business. You're CEO is important, but so are the lower level workers, without whom a company would fail.

If the bird doesn't meet its job criteria, he/she gets laid off. It's like any other job, you bring your A game to the table, and you'll get a pay cheque in 2 weeks, in this case peanuts haha.

Well that's my theory anyway. As twisted as it seems


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## re lee

Warren That is why I said. IF YOUR BIRDS ARE RATHER GOOD BIRDS< THAN LETTING THEM PAIR ON THERE OWN ONE COULD BREED FROM THEM THAT WAY FOR A LITTLE LONGER. But even using that concept one can only use it 100 percent so long. The idea is pairing /mating off set. to move towards a better balanced pairing, trying to increase the chance of raising a decent bird or two. We all know every loft has little key birds. Unless they years, and selection time has been taken. Meaning what over ten year better over 20 years To build that solid set of breeder birds. The USA will never be like it is over seas. We have less numbers in small areas. BUT look at the people from belgium. The netherlands ECT that have entered one loft races here. There birds do not compete any better then the birds found here. So if lets say you flew in the Netherlands aginsts thousands more pigeons in the race. And placed well would your birds be better then they are now . If say Ludo raced here would those birds have done any better. But there wins would have seemed and meant less to many in the world. because the thousands in the race makes that win look better. If by now the people in the good old USA can not have decent birds that can hold up Then well THEY NEVER WILL. pigeon racing has been around along time. And the best racers USED 1 widowhood. 2 did not concern there strenghs for just a young bird season.. 3 Started with birds as many can read. That perhaps many would have never bought to breed from BECAUSE they had no race record on them. PLUS even today many over seas do not keep strong pedigrees 3 generation pedigrees on performance based birds. And some of thoses still go back 20 years on 3 generations Where here trying to get to the breeding MIND you see 3 generations in FIVE year pedigrees.. Not very well selected breeding. But hurryed breeding. THE BEST CAN WAIT> THE HURRYED TRY TO RUN . Meaning Taking time adding birds to that breeding loft. Rathere then the yearly selection of one year wonders. BUT all means hold that certion bird or to. And do so perhaps 1 2 3 years by that time there are others then select the NEDED bird or BIRDS only Or an add each year soon all birds have all the same near FAULTS racing at only 1 or 2 levels. Meaning one moved backwards not forwards. Just a thought


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Revolution Lofts said:


> In simple words, I think Warren has a valid point. If a fanciers entire breeding stock has been selected at an extreme level to a point where every single bird in the loft is equal or better than the next, picking which cock to pair with which hen and produce exceptional birds is just a chance of luck.
> 
> I think the entire pigeon racing sport is a chance of luck. Even birds that have gotten 1st place against a large number of birds numerous times can fail to produce a single good young bird.
> 
> The best possible thing you can do, is ensure every bird in the breeding loft is good, whatever your "good" is. That way, no matter what birds you pair up, you'll still get a close enough answer to how good your birds really are.
> 
> *One bird does not make or break your loft. *
> 
> Thats what I tell myself every time I give a bird away. If that was indeed the case, then my selective breeding has no merit and my credibility can go down the drain.
> 
> To counter this, every single bird should be a team member.
> 
> It's like professional sports, example: A football team. You might have the best QB in the league, but if your linebackers and receivers can't do their job, you'll never win the super bowl.
> 
> You basically want to create a machine, where each part has its own job - each pigeon has its own job.
> 
> To truly be successful, a fancier should always have a few good long distance birds to compliment your sprinters. Sometimes you need that extra something those distance birds have, to come in front of the peoples birds who breed sprinters and can't handle a headwind and cloudy skies to save their lives.
> 
> Every bird should have a role. It's like running a business. You're CEO is important, but so are the lower level workers, without whom a company would fail.
> 
> If the bird doesn't meet its job criteria, he/she gets laid off. It's like any other job, you bring your A game to the table, and you'll get a pay cheque in 2 weeks, in this case peanuts haha.
> 
> Well that's my theory anyway.* As twisted as it seems*



It could just be me, but I haven't met a pigeon fancier yet that wasn't twisted in some way. After all, for the most part we are talking about adult men who like to play with pigeons in their back yard for fun !! 

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take exception to your one comment concerning a single bird making or breaking a loft. Under ideal situations, a single bird should not, but in many cases, it has been a single bird which has founded many a loft and strain. That is, if one somehow managed to get their hands on a single Super Pre-potent breeder which can pass on their very exceptional genes. 

There are examples out there, where the introduction of a single *exceptional* breeding specimen has changed the breeding and racing career of a fancier. Such birds do exist, and they do have the potential to make even a very average fancier look good. I have certainly had a single bird make my YB season, and a breeder which can produce Champions out of line, can certainly make a loft, and without care, the loss of such a bird can also wreck devastation on your racing record.


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## raftree3

A friend has the following as his loft philosophy.......Pedigree indicates what the pigeon should be......Conformation indicates what the pigeon appears to be .....BUT PERFORMANCE INDICATES WHAT THE PIGEON IS. It really doesn't matter what specie you replace the word Pigeon with.....it holds true throughout.


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## lawman

raftree3 said:


> A friend has the following as his loft philosophy.......Pedigree indicates what the pigeon should be......Conformation indicates what the pigeon appears to be .....BUT PERFORMANCE INDICATES WHAT THE PIGEON IS. It really doesn't matter what specie you replace the word Pigeon with.....it holds true throughout.


Good quote raftree! and very true indeed.

As for those of you who don't use selective breeding, well simply put your being lazy and in time you will loose your entire bloodline due to neglect.

Within a few generations you will produce nothing better than what is in most white bird release lofts. Most of them dont pay attention to the specific breeding ether and most of thier birds cannot go past 50 to 100 miles if their lucky.

I would be willing to bet that most who use it are buying birds within a year or two to replace the birds they now have. 

It would be interesting to see how many of the guys who constantly are importing new blood into the US use the theory of "let them pick their own mates" as I'll make a mint of selling their babies no matter what they are bred too.

Yes for a generation or two if you have enough breeders you will be able to raise a 100 or 200 babies a year and get lucky with one or two good to top fliers.

I have 8 permanent pair of breeders and four in the racing loft that will be allowed to race babies at the end of old birds. I use selective breeding and obtain better odds than that each year. 

So if you think your saving money and time by raising so many birds and taking care of that many breeders, well good luck to you!


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## Revolution Lofts

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> It could just be me, but I haven't met a pigeon fancier yet that wasn't twisted in some way. After all, for the most part we are talking about adult men who like to play with pigeons in their back yard for fun !!
> 
> Just for the sake of discussion, I will take exception to your one comment concerning a single bird making or breaking a loft. Under ideal situations, a single bird should not, but in many cases, it has been a single bird which has founded many a loft and strain. That is, if one somehow managed to get their hands on a single Super Pre-potent breeder which can pass on their very exceptional genes.
> 
> There are examples out there, where the introduction of a single *exceptional* breeding specimen has changed the breeding and racing career of a fancier. Such birds do exist, and they do have the potential to make even a very average fancier look good. I have certainly had a single bird make my YB season, and a breeder which can produce Champions out of line, can certainly make a loft, and without care, the loss of such a bird can also wreck devastation on your racing record.



Warren I was saying that if a good bird of yours dies or gets lost, it should not affect your entire pigeon program (having a ripple effect on every stage such as loss of a good breeder, who bred you good babies, who won races, who then turned into breeders themselves). 

Should not rely heavily on one bird. Even if the bird goes MIA, you have other birds in your loft that can use the opportunity to become your number 1 or number 2 bird. You don't want a front loaded team, you want a deep team. The more depth you have in the ranks, the better.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Revolution Lofts said:


> Warren I was saying that if a good bird of yours dies or gets lost, it should not affect your entire pigeon program (having a ripple effect on every stage such as loss of a good breeder, who bred you good babies, who won races, who then turned into breeders themselves).
> 
> Should not rely heavily on one bird. Even if the bird goes MIA, you have other birds in your loft that can use the opportunity to become your number 1 or number 2 bird. You don't want a front loaded team, you want a deep team. The more depth you have in the ranks, the better.


 Tis true, but everyone has to start somewhere. Of course after 50 years one would think your team is not relying on a single bird. But, not everyone starts on day one with a few dozen Aces and AU Champions. Still, everyone has a bird in their loft that is better then all of their others. The loss of your best bird has got to hurt. And if it happens to be one of those once in a life time kind of bird's, that can never be replaced .....well if you lose that bird, your extraordinary wins may stop as well that is all I was saying. As we have seen it happen.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Good quote raftree! and very true indeed.
> 
> As for those of you *who don't use selective breeding*, well simply put your being lazy and in time you will loose your entire bloodline due to neglect.
> 
> Within a few generations you will produce nothing better than what is in most white bird release lofts. Most of them dont pay attention to the specific breeding ether and most of thier birds cannot go past 50 to 100 miles if their lucky.
> 
> I would be willing to bet that most who use it are buying birds within a year or two to replace the birds they now have.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how many of the guys who constantly are importing new blood into the US use the theory of "let them pick their own mates" as I'll make a mint of selling their babies no matter what they are bred too.
> 
> Yes for a generation or two if you have enough breeders you will be able to raise a 100 or 200 babies a year and get lucky with one or two good to top fliers.
> 
> I have 8 permanent pair of breeders and four in the racing loft that will be allowed to race babies at the end of old birds. I use selective breeding and obtain better odds than that each year.
> 
> So if you think your saving money and time by raising so many birds and taking care of that many breeders, well good luck to you!


 I am either not articulating my position very well, or folks forget the selection process I mentioned, or else some fanciers are just convinced that they have advanced their stock by way of selecting the pairings. I plead ignorance then, as I am sure that those of you who think that selecting 100% of your pairings, is the only way to produce "good" birds, or at least more then if someone else had done the selections.

Now, I am willing to wager that those of you who feel selecting all of the pairings is the only way to go, how would you explain if there are 10 pairs in your example, if we took a dozen pairing "experts" from the audience, and had them pair your 10 pair, what are the odds that everyone comes up with the same pairings ? Each and every one of those fanciers will feel as though they are pairing the birds the "right" way. They can't all be right. 

Most fanciers must not be pairing their birds correctly since most will only produce mostly very average typical birds. I know there are people out there will feel they are Master's at pairing just the right cock with the right hen, and because of that produce extraordinary results, I guess I will just have to be one of those non-believers. If some of the world's most respected pigeon breeders will allow some of their birds to select their own mates, then just count me as one of those guys who doesn't suppose that he can select better then some of those Grand Master's that don't even pretend to try. 

In the end, it is just an opinion. I don't think the issue can be proven one way or the other. Those who peer over pedigrees, and gaze into eyes, or otherwise select their pairings, perhaps "best to best", I am sure most are convinced that their pairings will maximize their success. I am convinced that the quality of the individual birds is the key.


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## First To Hatch

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Now, I am willing to wager that those of you who feel selecting all of the pairings is the only way to go, how would you explain if there are 10 pairs in your example, if we took a dozen pairing "experts" from the audience, and had them pair your 10 pair, what are the odds that everyone comes up with the same pairings ? Each and every one of those fanciers will feel as though they are pairing the birds the "right" way. *They can't all be right.*


Why can't they all be right? There is more than one way "to reach the finish line" I would say in my opinion, but its not my opinion, it is just a simple fact. No one does things the same as anyone else no matter how they try. Throughout the U.S. there will be numerous champion birds, birds that won multiple races, birds that get into the Hall of Fame, or become Registered Champions. And none of those guys did it the same way. So remind me again why 10 different people could pair pigeons differently and expect good results, but then again it all goes back to what you consider to be a good pigeon in the first place. Like I said I am about to give you the best advice ever, "Just breed two pigeons to each other, and hope it is a fast one".


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## SmithFamilyLoft

First To Hatch said:


> *Why can't they all be right? *There is more than one way "to reach the finish line" I would say in my opinion, but its not my opinion, it is just a simple fact. No one does things the same as anyone else no matter how they try. Throughout the U.S. there will be numerous champion birds, birds that won multiple races, birds that get into the Hall of Fame, or become Registered Champions. *And none of those guys did it the same way.* So remind me again why 10 different people could pair pigeons differently and expect good results, but then again it all goes back to what you consider to be a good pigeon in the first place. Like I said I am about to give you the best advice ever, "Just breed two pigeons to each other, and hope it is a fast one".


 There can only be one "Best" combination of pairings. If ten fanciers could pair these 20 pigeons together ten different ways, and still be successful. Then the pairings of the individual birds must not be all that critical. Which was pretty much my point, a random selection process among Aces and Champions would produce results similar to what random fanciers making the pairing selections would do. In some cases I am sure the bird's themselves might prove to be better selectors then the human fancier. 

Billions of $$$$'s and the horse breeders only get it right 6% of the time, I don't see any reason why pigeon fanciers would be any more skillful then horse breeders.


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## Crazy Pete

I have enjoyed this thread a lot of good info, but that is not sound advice. My objective has always been to win at the distance, but lately I have some speed birds so if I "just let 2 pigeons breed" my speed will not be speed, and my distance will no longer be distance. I'll bet within 3 years all my birds will need to be replaced.

Every one must set goals, and the only way to achieve those goals is by selective breeding. 

A lot of people think Rotondo is old out of date, but you should read it especialy the part about selecting your breeders.
Dave


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## lawman

Crazy Pete said:


> I have enjoyed this thread a lot of good info, but that is not sound advice. My objective has always been to win at the distance, but lately I have some speed birds so if I "just let 2 pigeons breed" my speed will not be speed, and my distance will no longer be distance. I'll bet within 3 years all my birds will need to be replaced.
> 
> Every one must set goals, and the only way to achieve those goals is by selective breeding.
> 
> A lot of people think Rotondo is old out of date, but you should read it especialy the part about selecting your breeders.
> Dave


 Interesting you threw Rotondo in the mix, it seems when we pay attention the old masters realy did know what they were talking about. 

This tread had me pulling out some old articles published on "Boglin Marsh" by Spinsky. He would have had a melt down if you told him to let them pair up any old way they wanted. Fact is he practised pairing the fastest cock to the fastest hen at given distances. Without any regard to families or bloodlines or body types. After the first season you throw out everything except your top fliers (including stock birds) Over a few seasons and generations you would develope your own bloodlines as all of your birds would be from birds that flew and excelled at specific distances (whatever you wanted to develop be it long distance or, middle or short). If a flier excelled and became better than the stock bird it was bred from you moved it into the stock loft and got rid of the old stock bird(s). Over time you would develop your own bloodlines as the slower birds were replaced by their children and granchildren. He had some other idea's as well but thats the basic premise of his theory.


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## First To Hatch

Crazy Pete said:


> I have enjoyed this thread a lot of good info, but that is not sound advice. My objective has always been to win at the distance, but lately I have some speed birds so if I *"just let 2 pigeons breed"* my speed will not be speed, and my distance will no longer be distance. I'll bet within 3 years all my birds will need to be replaced.
> 
> Every one must set goals, and the only way to achieve those goals is by selective breeding.
> 
> A lot of people think Rotondo is old out of date, but you should read it especialy the part about selecting your breeders.
> Dave


If that bolded part was in reference to what I've been saying, what I am trying to say is that I don't think anyone has a real clue to get great birds from every pairing, and that we just breed pigeons to each other hoping for a good pigeon.

In reality I spend a lot of time thinking about who I am going to pair who to. I spent a whole day in my garage with all my pigeons crated up trying to figure that out, and then I'd take them to the loft when I decided. I was talking to my friend Mel (Mels Loft, great guy) and we were talking about how we always have things on paper but a lot of times you'll get some that wont pair up as we desire them too and how frustrating that can be. 

I have quite a good number of unpedigreed breeders, so I don't base my pairings off of pedigrees too much. I envision what I want a pigeon to look like and pair them up that way, no matter the strains, I also focus on a certain distance in my pairings some will be 300 milers others sprinters, others wont be a racing pigeon until you take them out 500 miles. Mel has also paired pairs for me based on his eye sign method, which has worked for me in the past!


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## re lee

Expecting more from your birds Is often the CASE. Every one should KNOW when you pair your birds Just a small percent comes out good. IT is Not just how they were paired. It is how the young bird Came out. Jast as with HORSES.DOGS. CATTLE. ECT, Every bird can not inherent the needed TOOLS plus the old saying champions are not born the are made. That goes to your training methods. your motivater methods ECT as even if you hatched some great race bird and failed to train it where it would perform its best for you. Then you failed there also. And I do not know how many people I have met and talked to. That do not either keep the youg raised off there flying team. Or do not bother with them as much. Because there team IS cross line bred. Well The team is what wins the races. the team is what shows how the breeder birds bred. The team is what lets others see how you race. So While they are being raced. And bred from . Widow hood or natural method They give young that can be tested. And when raced both young and old seasons And have say a 4. 5 year race history You sure have better understanding to how that bird may need to be put in the stock loft. It gave results after results. It gave x amount of off spring that showed how they did ECT So that test time helps lead to a solid choice. Where STOCK birds Often bought. Have never raced for you and your method. Some raised for stock were never raced at all. And a PEDIGREE is JUST A BREEDING RECORD. to record info. and inhertince right. Well that flying has its pedigree Even though those young birds off it could be 3 4 way crosses as so called strain line goes. BUT the old brreding rule line to start your own family of birds Go out to not more then 3 different people to get your birds And build from there. Those being up to 3 way cross line. But how the get paired and contribute to your needed method is your doing. The results show. So forgeting those race birds as producers of the future lets good birds go the way side. There is a standard guide to what a good race bird should carry outward. WHAT YOU CAN SEE> then the rest is what it shows it can do when it PERFORMS. Just as getting FASTER birds you pair faster birds together BUT ALSO pair faster birds to slightly slower birds. And still the slower birds are needed HARD weather birds Just in case mother nature has a test on this race or that Where speed falls back and consistant level flying over takes speed. And As I said Bring those big boys of racing to America with all there birds And results would surprise you. We race in smaller numbers. But that does not mean America does not have some very good birds. The old story if you are going to compete with the big boys then you have to compte with them and raise the type of birds you need that can compete with them. Meaning Better birds And more well selected birds. Giving up on those close but no winner birds. Meaning you select harder to get where you want to be. That gose for club combine federation. And even one loft races. You race at your chosen level and move from there. Remember there are more non winners then winners. And each level steps forwrds when you try.


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## Crazy Pete

I have pedigrees on my Houbens, but for my distance birds they are on a points chart, and the points they get are off their young. and my racers get a points chart. Very few of them get enough points to get in the breeders loft. Eye sign is a big part of who gets to breed.
Dave


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## Lovelace

I have to say this article is good but in my opinion the apple can not fall for from the tree
if so you are in trouble, it's not the training it is what's in the (blood and heart).


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## R-Tune

Lovelace said:


> I have to say this article is good but in my opinion the apple can not fall for from the tree
> if so you are in trouble, it's not the training it is what's in the (blood and heart).


thats is very right..
if u can follow a breeding method and breed champions and world class. So my ? is warren has ludos drirect from the master himself.. if i am correct...
Now Ludo dominates in his catagory with those birds. which warren has his birds .. If ur theory of breeding is right which i am not saying that its totally not right .. i belive it works to a point.. . how come i do not see warren dominating with the same ludos .. Shouldnt they even be better since time has given warren to do selective breeding and pair them to make them better? They should be better then when ludo had them and should be dominating with those pigeons.. But i dont see much...

I think if u do selective breeding and breed color or fancies then maybe it will work and get the results what u want. but i dont belive it works 100 percent for breeding very good homers that are world class...as no one can tell weather the baby is gonna be a world class pigeon or not until they fly it...unlike breeding for color or fancies...when u can see the changes in color on every generation so there forth u know how to hand select ur pairs....


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## R-Tune

i have nothing against u warren or ur pigeons... i just know that u got ludo from ludo so i am just using ur name... dont take it the wrong way.. just a example..
i have gottn ur ludos from 9points so i have nothing against u or anything bad about u.. not only u but other lofts that i see that has directs and the winner itself. even half the colony of the master himself..but.. yet i do not see them dominting like overseas.. that is y i do not belive and sometiems i think they overdo it by too much hand selective breeding and crossings in there breeding programs.. again i am not saying selective breeding is wrong i personally think people over do it wanting to get that world class pigeon..


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## Josepe

Good post Dave,And R-Tune also.


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## ERIC K

R-Tune said:


> i have nothing against u warren or ur pigeons... i just know that u got ludo from ludo so i am just using ur name... dont take it the wrong way.. just a example..
> i have gottn ur ludos from 9points so i have nothing against u or anything bad about u.. not only u but other lofts that i see that has directs and the winner itself. even half the colony of the master himself..but.. yet i do not see them dominting like overseas.. that is y i do not belive and sometiems i think they overdo it by too much hand selective breeding and crossings in there breeding programs.. again i am not saying selective breeding is wrong i personally think people over do it wanting to get that world class pigeon..


One more good reason why a person starting out should go to two good flyers and by 10 birds cheap from each flyer. You then have 20 pigeons and you have a better chance at one good bird vs a $5000 bird that looks good but might be worth $5. Keep doing that for a few years and you'll have a good team.


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## Josepe

Good point Eric,and probably one's best chance at getting some good birds.Then you have some that will put out Big $$$ for birds from big name European flyers and end up getting out flown regularly by other flyers in their combine that hasn't put out the Big $$$.


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## lawman

Josepe said:


> Good point Eric,and probably one's best chance at getting some good birds.Then you have some that will put out Big $$$ for birds from big name European flyers and end up getting out flown regularly by other flyers in their combine that hasn't put out the Big $$$.


You guys are forgeting that it's not just about bloodlines and how much you pay for a bird. You can start with junk birds (commies) from the local barn or like you said pay hundreds of dollars for expensive imported birds. 

But if you don't have the will to use selective breeding and harsh selection of youngsters, the ability or desire to then train them properly, then it realy won't matter much. 

It doesnt matter what you start with if you go at it all willy nilly your going to fail and fail big time. You will forever be chasing the pot of gold at the end of the race season only to come up short. 

You will become one of those who are forever looking for the next big winner to import into your loft only to have that birds youngsters become no better than what you already have.

Choose a method of breeding and stick to it. Be it free pairing, strick selection, or a mixture of both. Be it light, dark or all natural lighting systems make it something you can work with.

Then choose a training method that works for your schedule and on race day you will ether win or lose.

Then you recallibrate based on how your birds did and whether your satisfied with the outcome. 

If they performed to your expectations or better then nothing else will change. 

If they performed badly and you wish to to better, then its back to the drawing board for the next race season be it old birds or young.

Of course if you don't have any expectations when you start then all is well no matter the outcome.

As re lee pointed out it all depends on what your goals are in the first place!


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## GrizzleMan

*This is a heavy duty topic...........I like it.

I just started back into this sport since I was 14. I picked up 20 ybs off 2 different people who both have won and did good so its a good start. 

One thing I notice about the great flyers is they spend alot of time with there birds and always study them. I also study mine but I think I miss things in a bird that these pros can see.... I have so much to learn still and I think thats what keeps me going and thousands of others. *

Bring on spring............


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## lawman

GrizzleMan said:


> *This is a heavy duty topic...........I like it.
> 
> I just started back into this sport since I was 14. I picked up 20 ybs off 2 different people who both have won and did good so its a good start.
> 
> One thing I notice about the great flyers is they spend alot of time with there birds and always study them. I also study mine but I think I miss things in a bird that these pros can see.... I have so much to learn still and I think thats what keeps me going and thousands of others. *
> 
> Bring on spring............


Hey Grizzleman Welcome back, 

your right you learn to see some things, other things you have to handle the birds for and yes it takes time to pick up on the clues that make your birds jump to the top.

I would pick the brains as much as you can of the guys you got your birds from both in how the birds handle and what clues you need to look for. Dont be surprized (as you can tell from this thread) if they both look for different things in selcting their birds.


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## conditionfreak

I have said on this site before, and I will say my opinion again.

Most racing homers are of good enough quality to win anywhere. There is very little difference between a ten thousand dollar bird and a hundred dollar racing homer. There may be a slight difference, but that slight difference is relegated to insignificance when location, competition, weather, wind direction, luck, and other sundry things do their part. And they always do their part.

The difference is usually the handler. Ludo Classaens could have taken the birds in my loft and beat just about everyone. I could have taken the birds in his loft, and lost to just about everyone.

The difference is in the abilities and desire of the handler, IMO.

In one loft races, it is just luck. A krap shoot. Throw a bunch of mud against the wall, and some is sure to stick. Most will not. It is in fact, playing the lottery. Someone is going to win.

Now, do I try to obtain the best I can get/afford? Sure I do. Hedging my bets. But often I have flushed money down the toilet. My best birds have been gifts from other members of my club. I have yet to get winners from any birds I have bought on ipigeon, or any other web site. I did get adequate and good birds. But nothing better than what I already had, from local flyers. Far less actually.

Maybe it is like many things in life. It is who you know.


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## GrizzleMan

*Heavy Duty Topic*

*Its sounds like everyone here is on the same page. *

*Lawman* I have asked so many questions and they seem to give good answers. I think like some things in life you have to find out for yourself....


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## Lovelace

conditionfreak, I disagree, Just say you have ten pairs of breeders in the loft and only one pair produces offspring that beats the fethers off your other offspring you produced, I guess you say its the handler, I don't think so, it's the blood and soul of the bird.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

R-Tune said:


> i have nothing against u warren or ur pigeons... i just know that u got ludo from ludo so i am just using ur name... dont take it the wrong way.. just a example..
> i have gottn ur ludos from 9points so i have nothing against u or anything bad about u.. not only u but other lofts that i see that has directs and the winner itself. even half the colony of the master himself..but..* yet i do not see them dominting like overseas.. *that is y i do not belive and sometiems i think they overdo it by too much hand selective breeding and crossings in there breeding programs.. again i am not saying selective breeding is wrong i personally think people over do it wanting to get that world class pigeon..


 I sort of contributed to taking us a bit off track with my 2 cents regarding the pairing of good birds. I am sure horse breeders invest a considerable amount of time before they breed one of their mares regardless if it is a $2500 horse or $1.5 million. We study the pedigrees, we compare race distances and races won, we look at the balance and try to figure out which birds complement each other etc. etc. And let's face it, a lot of luck is involved. 

What I think one has to keep in mind in the USA, is that there is no "strain" that I am aware of, that has caused it's owner to "dominate" the racing industry. And few are going to race as well as the original Master because, his loft, management, skills, etc do not come attached to the birds. A "good" fancier, with a "good" loft, in a "good" location I suspect could do well with any brand or strain of winners. And a poor fancier, with a poor loft, in a poor location, etc. and the best birds in the world would do him little good.

I wish I had those skills that some fanciers have, or claim to have, in being able to eye ball and handle a bird, and just know instinctively even if looking at a 100 possible mates, knows exactly which hen to pair to which cock. Sure would be sweet if I could tell by just looking at the birds and comparing notes. 

I sometimes bring in other "experts" to look at certain birds and advise as to how they would pair. There are times of course when it is pretty obvious which way to pair, and at other times, we switch pairings around. Advantage of only working with a very small number of pairs is that one can do all of the possible combinations. For you new guys advised not to follow my dangerous advice, if one only has a couple or few pairs, I don't think you have to fret over your pairings, as most likely one will switch those pairings around until they find that pair that "clicks". I just figure if you are going to end up switching them all around every year anyway, I see no harm in pairing those that appear obvious or you feel strongly about. For the rest, half the time for me anyway, it is 6 or one half a dozen, one or the other, take your pick.

This year, as in years past, I looked into my crystal ball and made my pairing selections, and then I must have rushed things cause a few had other ideas and switched mates on me. After I looked at some of the new "pairings" that a couple champs made, I thought to myself...hmmmmmm.....they do look good together, I hadn't thought of that....and let things stand. I guess now since I left those pairings stand, that my career as a pigeon fancier is now doomed.


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## ERIC K

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> This year, as in years past, I looked into my crystal ball and made my pairing selections, and then I must have rushed things cause a few had other ideas and switched mates on me. After I looked at some of the new "pairings" that a couple champs made, I thought to myself...hmmmmmm.....they do look good together, I hadn't thought of that....and let things stand. I guess now since I left those pairings stand, that my career as a pigeon fancier is now doomed.


Now you're talking. You have the birds , you have wining pairs ( can't get better than a win or a champ) feel free with your other birds just like the rest of us do. I think you have seen the light and will be very surprised at the results.


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## R-Tune

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I sort of contributed to taking us a bit off track with my 2 cents regarding the pairing of good birds. I am sure horse breeders invest a considerable amount of time before they breed one of their mares regardless if it is a $2500 horse or $1.5 million. We study the pedigrees, we compare race distances and races won, we look at the balance and try to figure out which birds complement each other etc. etc. And let's face it, a lot of luck is involved.
> 
> What I think one has to keep in mind in the USA, is that there is no "strain" that I am aware of, that has caused it's owner to "dominate" the racing industry. And few are going to race as well as the original Master because, his loft, management, skills, etc do not come attached to the birds. A "good" fancier, with a "good" loft, in a "good" location I suspect could do well with any brand or strain of winners. And a poor fancier, with a poor loft, in a poor location, etc. and the best birds in the world would do him little good.
> 
> I wish I had those skills that some fanciers have, or claim to have, in being able to eye ball and handle a bird, and just know instinctively even if looking at a 100 possible mates, knows exactly which hen to pair to which cock. Sure would be sweet if I could tell by just looking at the birds and comparing notes.
> 
> I sometimes bring in other "experts" to look at certain birds and advise as to how they would pair. There are times of course when it is pretty obvious which way to pair, and at other times, we switch pairings around. Advantage of only working with a very small number of pairs is that one can do all of the possible combinations. For you new guys advised not to follow my dangerous advice, if one only has a couple or few pairs, I don't think you have to fret over your pairings, as most likely one will switch those pairings around until they find that pair that "clicks". I just figure if you are going to end up switching them all around every year anyway, I see no harm in pairing those that appear obvious or you feel strongly about. For the rest, half the time for me anyway, it is 6 or one half a dozen, one or the other, take your pick.
> 
> This year, as in years past, I looked into my crystal ball and made my pairing selections, and then I must have rushed things cause a few had other ideas and switched mates on me. After I looked at some of the new "pairings" that a couple champs made, I thought to myself...hmmmmmm.....they do look good together, I hadn't thought of that....and let things stand. I guess now since I left those pairings stand, that my career as a pigeon fancier is now doomed.


yes there is no one strain that dominates in the usa and there is no one that domintes like over in belgium.. take for example vanloon.. 
Y is it that overseas they have pigeons that dominate and are sold for millions to other countries? but not vise versa like belgium buying usa birds for millions and they only laugh at us for buying there birds...(food for thought)
With very good birds or flock of birds they will always fly good no matter what owner just as long as they get the requirement they need.. They may not win as many prizes but they should still fly with great results regardless just as long as they get whats required to be in good health... And if they cant even get a decent prize then the problem lies within the owner they must of did something to that bloodline or bird..,Not the method used to train the bird unless he abuses it and over trains it.. but im sure most of u guys are not beginners who know knothing... (again another food for thought)



Its all the same concept as the underground cockers world... Cockers world and bettas world there is no diffrence as to pigeons...especailly coming from someone overseas whos been on both sides.. i understand y they laugh at us and y we can not get good birds that domanate like them


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## LOFT 532

You guys sure like to type.


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## re lee

LOOK at the so called top breders Of the world class BIRDS being talked of You see they do NOT breed ACE birds each year. Some go TEN YEARS before they ever raise another bird near as good as that bird. Why Because Great birds do not come around every year. A great bird. Wins for YEARS at the different races. Not every race but WINS OR places well. JUST as GREAT HORSES. few come around. THATS LIFE thats the real world. But staying on line you must try to raise A good bird or two each year. Because just like you others Are in the same BOAT. But If all the race people here raced over seas Guess what They would win also. Why they would breed towards there needs there. WATCH those one loft races See how many people from the netherlands. Or belgium ECT win. When you enter a one loft race YOU never chose the bird as useable bird YOU just HOPED it was.


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## R-Tune

i agree with u lee.. what u say is true....but what i was referring to was more of a colony of pigeons..not individuals..

so called top breeders..Lee...lolz...

back to work for me free time over.. it was nice and fun debating about pigeons with u guys..I hope no one is upset or take it the wrong way.. hope u guys breed that world class bird. and good luck to all for this comming season..


----------



## Crazy Pete

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> What I think one has to keep in mind in the USA, is that there is no "strain" that I am aware of, that has caused it's owner to "dominate" the racing industry. And few are going to race as well as the original Master because, his loft, management, skills, etc do not come attached to the birds. A "good" fancier, with a "good" loft, in a "good" location I suspect could do well with any brand or strain of winners. And a poor fancier, with a poor loft, in a poor location, etc. and the best birds in the world would do him little good.
> 
> Warren I think you got the last part out of Rotondo
> Dave


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> LOOK at the so called top breders Of the world class BIRDS being talked of You see they do NOT breed ACE birds each year. Some go TEN YEARS before they ever raise another bird near as good as that bird. Why Because Great birds do not come around every year. A great bird. Wins for YEARS at the different races. Not every race but WINS OR places well. JUST as GREAT HORSES. few come around. THATS LIFE thats the real world. But staying on line you must try to raise A good bird or two each year. Because just like you others Are in the same BOAT. But If all the race people here raced over seas Guess what They would win also. Why they would breed towards there needs there. WATCH those one loft races See how many people from the netherlands. Or belgium ECT win. When you enter a one loft race YOU never chose the bird as useable bird YOU just HOPED it was.


Here are somewhat relevant comments from Ad on the subject.

http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/

*How come?*


The roots of International pigeonsport are in Belgium and in the Netherlands, that is a well known fact.
And because of that fanciers from all over the world want Dutch or Belgian birds.
If there were a real miracle bird in say, for arguments sake Libanon, no one would be interested.
The point is though that the Belgians and Dutch cannot prove how good their birds are in the races. Unlike other sports pigeon fanciers cannot compete with fellow sportsmen in other parts of the world.
The last few years however the sport got a new dimension: One loft races became more and more popular. 

ONE LOFT RACES
In those one loft races people from all over the world can enter birds.
So everybody can compete with everybody regardless where they live under the same conditions. 
*One would expect that the Dutch and Belgian would claim all the prizes and money but nothing is less true.*
They do not dominate, on the contrary.
Birds from all possible countries are on top in nearly all races. Especially the German birds do real well and the last few years also those from... Kuwait.
Fanciers in Holland do not understand!
How is this possible?

DIFFERENT
Germany is not far from me and whenever I am there I am surprised to see all those hills, mountains, valleys and enormous woods.
And then I think about pigeons and pigeon races. The birds have to overcome difficulties there, that the Dutch and Belgian birds do not face during the races.
On their way home from a race they fly over land that is almost as flat as a billiard.
Moreover we mostly race under good weather conditions. When the weather is no good the race is postponed.
As I said, how different that is in other countries. I have a friend in Dubai. This man, Omar is the name, cannot stop laughing when I say we do not race since the temperature is too hot for both humans and pigeons.
30 Degrees Celsius he finds a nice temperature. The pigeons over there are raced when it is 35 Celsius and mostly without problems.

SELECTION
Pigeon fanciers from Germany, Kuwait and other countries also imported their birds from Holland and Belgium.
They bred babies from the imports, also grandchildren and great grandchildren and those birds were raced and selected.
*But the criteria of selection are different since the birds were raced under much harder circumstances than in Holland and Belgium.*
Due to that selection they get a stronger type of birds after several generations.
Birds that can handle harder circumstances in for example South Africa.
So it is not a coincidence the birds from other countries than Holland and Belgiun dominate those one loft races. These Germany, Kuwait and birds from other countries are just better!
In Belgium they also have a one loft race. And in this race the foreigners do NOT dominate. There the Dutch and Belgian birds perform better because they race under the same circumstances as their ancestors.
You can say these birds are faster and smarter, birds from other countries are stronger!

JAPAN
It reminds me of a visit that I once paid to Japan. I visited a fancier who races my birds and he does real well in races from 1,000 kilometres, also in hard circumstances.
I could not understand, since I do not race long distance, I have typical Middle Distance birds.
Then I saw some birds that were the off spring of mine and I was shocked.
These Schaerlaeckensbirds were so different with long wings and strong bodies. 
*Ho got those birds after selecting them again and again, generation after generation.
And this selection was based on the results on Long Distance.
Thus also this man created another type of birds.
*
Now we come again to what I think is essential in pigeon sport: Selection is the name of the game.






© Ad Schaerlaeckens


----------



## lawman

Interesting that you quote the master, I have aways enjoyed reading what he has to say. I have to wonder Warren If they will pay any attention? as we have both in our own ways tried to say what Ad states so clearly!

Rules to remember http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/

by Ad Schaerlaeckens 

It is not written for the champions, nothing new for them I guess, but they are meant for those numerous others that try to be champions.

RULE ONE
What matters most of all to be successful is good pigeons. It sounds so simple but too many fellow sportsmen are not aware of that.
They think successes are hidden in a magic bottle, they believe in secrets that do not exist and sometimes suspect champions of having secrets that they do not want to expose or share. But if they have a secret it is their birds!

RULE TWO
Good birds are not the monopoly of the great names, on the contrary. Most great names owe their fame to birds that they got from completely unknown fanciers. So a bird is not a good bird only as it is from Janssen, van Loon, Klak, Toye or whoever. What most fanciers do not realise is that even the greatest champions in the world breed far more bad birds than good ones. 
I agree there is a lot of cheating, but when birds from a champion turn out to be no good this does not mean you were fooled. 

RULE THREE
Forget about all those theories concerning eyes. Belgians and Dutch laugh with such talk and that is something everybody should do. The fact that there is not even a Dutch word for ‘eye sign’ must have a reason. Scientists in Belgium frequently said ‘eye sign’ is bull and so is the opinion of some that claim that the eyes if a bird show if it is a good racer or breeder or not.

I always say: If you want do buy good birds do not look into the eyes of the pigeon but in those of the fancier.’ Is he honest? Does he do his best to sell quality for the money he gets?

RULE FOUR
If I had the choice, race a super bird in poor condition or an average bird in super shape I would prefer the last one. It is true indeed that good birds get in good shape easier than others. So natural health is also a quality! Get rid of pigeons that have problems staying healthy 365 days per year. Of course you should keep them in a sound environment. How can you expect birds to get into good shape when you put them in a loft in which they have to fight bad conditions such as heat, draught or humidity? 

RULE FIVE
Champions also know how to get good birds in good shape, which is a must to perform, because as mentioned before good birds alone are not enough.
But do not think condition can be bought or shaken out of a bottle. So stay away from medicine as much as possible. Medicine are developed to cure humans and animals that are sick. They are not developed to turn average pigeons into winners. The ‘magic bottle’ with the magic stuff that will make you a winner does not exist. 

Why else are so many vets poor racers? And why would champions spend money on better birds if they would know how to turn bad birds into winners?

RULE SIX
The pedigree is important but no more than that. Too many foreigners value that piece of paper too much and that is something that Belgians and Dutch do not understand. 

As if pedigrees could fly.. With a bird of good origin you just have a greater chance. Foreign buyers just ask to be cheated. Not all exporters and importers are good men. It happens that the owner of a super bird is offered more money if he makes a better pedigree so that the bird is worth more. It is the buyers who value the pedigree too much who are responsible for this. 
If pedigrees were made after babies were rung, so before they won a race, many of them would be different from what they are now.

RULE SEVEN
Champions never ever toss or race birds that do not train spontaneously but there is a difference between training and training. Birds making endless rounds around the loft are not training properly. When it is ‘training time’ they must be on the alert, with stretched necks they must be ready to burst out of the loft with a tremendous noise. It must look as if the loft is vomiting pigeons that do not make one single round but fly away like hell in a straight line. When you turn round after you have let them out you may not see them any more. If they stay away for a long time and then come back in little groups, tired with hanging wings, you may have nice dreams about the race to come. Now it may be clear why I do not favour a flag to make birds fly. If you need one you have a problem. Forcing unhealthy birds to train may make the condition even poorer as it was. 

RULE EIGHT 
Concerning good birds, propaganda does not count, results do. 

But as for results 2 things are important to consider: 

a. How many birds does a fancier enter in a race? Winning 10 prizes looks good. But if such a man entered 100 plus birds it means nothing. His fellow sportsman that only won 3 prizes was far better if he only entered 3 birds.

b. Furthermore the strength of the competition is very important. A first prize or an impressing result means nothing to me. I want to know more. ‘Tell me against whom you race and I will tell you how good your birds are.’ 

RULE NINE
Some birds have such great shortcomings that they are easy to recognise as bad birds but the opposite is not true. Nobody can see for sure if a bird is good. That is why smart fanciers will never say ‘this is a good bird’, they say ‘this is a nice bird’ and that is quite a different thing! ‘Pretty’ does not mean ‘good’, concerning this pigeons and women do not differ much.

RULE TEN
Unfortunately the so called ‘young bird disease (Adeno/Coli) has become a problem worldwide. If you give youngsters the same mixture of food from the age of 10 weeks and older you significantly reduce the chances of an outbreak. Youngsters get more vulnerable if you change the mix during the week as so many fanciers do. Giving diet in the beginning of the week and ‘stronger’ food later on is risky since we got this new disease. The change of food is too hard on the intestines as it seems.

10 MISTAKES OF THE NON-CHAMPIONS
Many champions share the same ideas and fanciers that will never be champions are also of a type. The reason why they will never be champions is not the fact that they make mistakes, (everybody does) but the fact that they are not aware of that and keep on making them.

MISTAKE ONE
It cannot be emphasized enough that it is a big mistake to value name, strain and pedigree too much. It has led to many disappointments already.

MISTAKE TWO
Non-champions take action at the wrong time. They take refuge to medicine too early or too late. When pigeons race poorly they think medicine may help but not being in good shape does not mean being sick.

Medicate against diseases that do not exist will result in weaker birds, on the other hand you are too late when you take action when the birds are on the point of dying.

MISTAKE THREE
Non-champions have no confidence. They change their methods again and again. There are several good systems and several bad ones. The worst is to change again and again. 

MISTAKE FOUR
Especially in young bird racing it is important to have a good relationship with the pigeons. When a not successful fancier enters his loft his birds will want to get out as they do not trust him. 

When a champion is among his birds they feel at ease, but he has them under control still. He is the general, the birds are his soldiers, and good soldiers are disciplined. Champions play with their birds whereas birds of the non-champion play with the fancier.

MISTAKE FIVE
Non-champions want to find the best stuff to cure their birds from diseases. The champions try to prevent their birds from becoming sick. They pay special attention to the environment, the loft In the drinkers of the champions is clear water most of the time, the water in the drinkers of non-champions is often coloured. Non-champions are too soft hearted with birds that are not healthy. Champions get rid of such; they have iron hands in silk gloves.

MISTAKE SIX
Especially in young bird racing it is wrong to feed ‘too heavy’. That means too much protein, too many peas for example. Peas are good for babies in the nests that have to mature, for babies that are being raced it is poison. 

MISTAKE SEVEN
Most non-champions are naïve. When mating birds they do not realise how important good luck is. They think that if they mate a Super cock with a Super hen or its sister they will breed Super birds automatically. But it is not that simple.

MISTAKE EIGHT
Non-champions are brainwashed by the press and the propaganda of ‘brokers in illusions’. Champions are more realistic.

MISTAKE NINE
In the stock loft of non-champions you will find breeders that are some years old that never gave good birds. I wonder what such birds are doing there.

MISTAKE TEN
Modern racing pigeons are getting smaller. Some think bigger birds are stronger birds. They are wrong. It is often those small pigeons that can handle the hardest weather conditions and the greater distances.

IN CONCLUSION
Having good birds is fun. That is why some pay good money for them.
I may say I have won everything there is to be won. It ended up in a rule that forbade me to pool money as others felt they would have no chance then.
So it cannot all be nonsense that I have to say.


© Ad Schaerlaeckens


----------



## Josepe

Now there's the real Master.


----------



## Xueoo

lawman said:


> Interesting that you quote the master, I have aways enjoyed reading what he has to say. I have to wonder Warren If they will pay any attention? *as we have both in our own ways tried to say what Ad states so clearly*!


What exactly was that? Ad didn't say anything about horses. If anything, he says buy the best, breed lots from the best and hope all is well.


----------



## conditionfreak

Lovelace said:


> conditionfreak, I disagree, Just say you have ten pairs of breeders in the loft and only one pair produces offspring that beats the fethers off your other offspring you produced, I guess you say its the handler, I don't think so, it's the blood and soul of the bird.


You are forgetting the parts I mentioned. Such as luck, location and other factors.

For instance, one bird may like a certain weather or location. While others may not. A couple of birds may mature earlier than others. Some birds are used more than other birds. Some birds may have eaten more than other birds. Some birds are treated differently than other birds, because their parents or previous siblings did well and have diplomas. Some birds may be down from sprinters and the handler is sending them to 400+ mile races, and vice versa.

My point stands. Put all of your (or my) birds in the care and handling of Ludo Claessens, and he will win often with them. Put all of his birds in your (or my) loft, and we will most likely do just what we have been doing, on the race sheets.

There just ain't that much difference between racing homers. As with everything though, there are a few exceptions. Many of us can name them, and their handler. The handler makes or breaks the result sheet. Not the birds.


----------



## GrizzleMan

*Heavy Duty Topic*

This is like reading a book here lol. 

Point 1 I like the jannsen line. 

Point 2 Belgium has the best birds in the world in my eyes.

Point 3 This is a heavy Duty Topic lol


----------



## re lee

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Here are somewhat relevant comments from Ad on the subject.
> 
> http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/
> 
> *How come?*
> 
> 
> The roots of International pigeonsport are in Belgium and in the Netherlands, that is a well known fact.
> And because of that fanciers from all over the world want Dutch or Belgian birds.
> If there were a real miracle bird in say, for arguments sake Libanon, no one would be interested.
> The point is though that the Belgians and Dutch cannot prove how good their birds are in the races. Unlike other sports pigeon fanciers cannot compete with fellow sportsmen in other parts of the world.
> The last few years however the sport got a new dimension: One loft races became more and more popular.
> 
> ONE LOFT RACES
> In those one loft races people from all over the world can enter birds.
> So everybody can compete with everybody regardless where they live under the same conditions.
> *One would expect that the Dutch and Belgian would claim all the prizes and money but nothing is less true.*
> They do not dominate, on the contrary.
> Birds from all possible countries are on top in nearly all races. Especially the German birds do real well and the last few years also those from... Kuwait.
> Fanciers in Holland do not understand!
> How is this possible?
> 
> DIFFERENT
> Germany is not far from me and whenever I am there I am surprised to see all those hills, mountains, valleys and enormous woods.
> And then I think about pigeons and pigeon races. The birds have to overcome difficulties there, that the Dutch and Belgian birds do not face during the races.
> On their way home from a race they fly over land that is almost as flat as a billiard.
> Moreover we mostly race under good weather conditions. When the weather is no good the race is postponed.
> As I said, how different that is in other countries. I have a friend in Dubai. This man, Omar is the name, cannot stop laughing when I say we do not race since the temperature is too hot for both humans and pigeons.
> 30 Degrees Celsius he finds a nice temperature. The pigeons over there are raced when it is 35 Celsius and mostly without problems.
> 
> SELECTION
> Pigeon fanciers from Germany, Kuwait and other countries also imported their birds from Holland and Belgium.
> They bred babies from the imports, also grandchildren and great grandchildren and those birds were raced and selected.
> *But the criteria of selection are different since the birds were raced under much harder circumstances than in Holland and Belgium.*
> Due to that selection they get a stronger type of birds after several generations.
> Birds that can handle harder circumstances in for example South Africa.
> So it is not a coincidence the birds from other countries than Holland and Belgiun dominate those one loft races. These Germany, Kuwait and birds from other countries are just better!
> In Belgium they also have a one loft race. And in this race the foreigners do NOT dominate. There the Dutch and Belgian birds perform better because they race under the same circumstances as their ancestors.
> You can say these birds are faster and smarter, birds from other countries are stronger!
> 
> JAPAN
> It reminds me of a visit that I once paid to Japan. I visited a fancier who races my birds and he does real well in races from 1,000 kilometres, also in hard circumstances.
> I could not understand, since I do not race long distance, I have typical Middle Distance birds.
> Then I saw some birds that were the off spring of mine and I was shocked.
> These Schaerlaeckensbirds were so different with long wings and strong bodies.
> *Ho got those birds after selecting them again and again, generation after generation.
> And this selection was based on the results on Long Distance.
> Thus also this man created another type of birds.
> *
> Now we come again to what I think is essential in pigeon sport: Selection is the name of the game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Ad Schaerlaeckens


 This read SHOWS. That 1 a person needs to select and breed for there NEEDS. But also so shows No Country Has the BEST birds. They just have the best birds that win for them.. And the pedigrees can make you think wrong If you look at them to hard.. Because really A pedigree is what a loft record/ breeding records. That show how birds was selected. And THAT is it.. It does not show That from those selceted birds Perhaps over 100 young had been raced over the spread of that PEDIGREE. And only the SELECT few was retained. Or added to that line of breeding. . Then How birds brought in from other countries were agin. Bred and selceted for the NEEDS. That is in part Whymany that raise pigeon. Get out into the loft and try to do something about how they breed there birds. Learn from there results. AND spends years involved in a method. Just as the race horse Has a trainer. and a jockey. Without both the horse would be in the pasture. Not the race. so full circle. Bird times breeder / handler methods =s results. Then region times selection =s NEED


----------



## lawman

Xueoo said:


> What exactly was that? Ad didn't say anything about horses. If anything, he says buy the best, breed lots from the best and hope all is well.


Xueoo not everyone understands that when Warren is talking about problems that are inherent in the horse racing industry that he was really talking about the same thing going on within pigeon racing. 

Some did however and got just as upset as if Warren had spoke as plainly as AD did in the 10 rules to live by article that he wrote. 

In the end as someone tries to help other fliers:

Some will accept what is said and maybe learn from the experience of others, 

Some will simply ignore what is said and continue to hit their heads against the proverbial wall wondering why they cannot excel in our sport, 

Still others will boo hoo what is said so that new fliers and some old alike won’t use the experience of other fliers to help them get over the wall instead of hitting their heads on it (all the while feeding them bull****, so they do OK but never excel). 

Point is you cannot make everybody happy all of the time and not everyone wants to pass on what they know and have learned in order to see you win.


----------



## Lovelace

It's very simple like AD said (GOOD BIRDS) I am breeding 20 birds for 2013 young bird races, we race a A&B race with about 600 birds in each race, and I know I will win races.
Enough said.


----------



## First To Hatch

Lovelace said:


> It's very simple like AD said (GOOD BIRDS) I am breeding 20 birds for 2013 young bird races, we race a A&B race with about 600 birds in each race, and I know I will win races.
> Enough said.


I'll email you in October to see how many races you won with your 20 pigeons.


----------



## Lovelace

here are some of my results from 2012 young bird season and I only bred 25 birds,
and to make this interesting we fly from North to South with Lafayette La. and Baumont tX we are 50 miles apart east and west, most of the birds going to Lafayette, Oh and the last bird on this page I did not sent to the last 2 races he went in stock, so what do you think?

(4508) BB 204 MILES 2/54 BIRDS
146 MILES 5/85 BIRDS
COMBINE146 MILES 39/643 BIRDS
204 MILES 5/78 BIRDS
COMBINE204 MILES 37/572 BIRDS


(4518) BB 249 MILES 2/62 BIRDS
COMBINE249 MILES 17/472 BIRDS
146 MILES 4/85 BIRDS
COMBINE146 MILES 38/643 BIRDS
COMBINE 138 MILES 64/516 BIRDS


(4528) BB 
COMBINE 204 MILES 19/557 BIRDS
204 MILES 3/79 BIRDS
249 MILES 7/58 BIRDS


(4538) BB 146 MILES 3/85 BIRDS
COMBINE 146 MILES 36/643 BIRDS
COMBINE 138 MILES 62/516 BIRDS
COMBINE 308 MILES 58/324 MILES
138 MILES 13/68 BIRDS

(4548) BB 
COMBINE 308 MILES 3/345 MILES
204 MILES 1/78 BIRDS
204 MILES 1/54 BIRDS
308 MILES 1/51 BIRDS
COMBINE 204 MILES 15/572 BIRDS
249 MILES 12/61 BIRDS


----------



## Josepe

Lovelace,
Nice results.Good luck this coming season.I'm betting you'll do well again.
Will have to start a thread next season for everyone to post their race sheet results.


----------



## Lovelace

Thanks, Josepe I am hoping to do the same are better.


----------



## Xueoo

lawman said:


> Xueoo *not everyone understands that when Warren is talking about problems that are inherent in the horse racing industry that he was really talking about the same thing going on within pigeon racing*.
> 
> Some did however and got just as upset as if Warren had spoke as plainly as AD did in the 10 rules to live by article that he wrote.
> 
> In the end as someone tries to help other fliers:
> 
> Some will accept what is said and maybe learn from the experience of others,
> 
> Some will simply ignore what is said and continue to hit their heads against the proverbial wall wondering why they cannot excel in our sport,
> 
> Still others will boo hoo what is said so that new fliers and some old alike won’t use the experience of other fliers to help them get over the wall instead of hitting their heads on it (all the while feeding them bull****, so they do OK but never excel).
> 
> Point is you cannot make everybody happy all of the time and not everyone wants to pass on what they know and have learned in order to see you win.




That is just it...what is going on in the horse industry has nothing to do with whats going on in the pigeon industry. Like my earlier statement, grandpa can breed race winners in the backyard with whatever method he uses. He can't do that with a thoroughbred. 

If one acknowledges AD as an authority, one would know AD always says the best breeders are those who don't claim to know how to breed, and, that you cannot see what a "good" pigeon is. I haven't read most of what he puts out. As a matter of fact, have read very little of what he puts out, but I like his writting style vs the others. If someone would ask AD what he thought the relations were between pigeons and horses, he'd tell you one poops on two legs and the other on four.


----------



## lawman

Xueoo said:


> That is just it...what is going on in the horse industry has nothing to do with whats going on in the pigeon industry. Like my earlier statement, grandpa can breed race winners in the backyard with whatever method he uses. He can't do that with a thoroughbred.
> 
> If one acknowledges AD as an authority, one would know AD always says the best breeders are those who don't claim to know how to breed, and, that you cannot see what a "good" pigeon is. I haven't read most of what he puts out. As a matter of fact, have read very little of what he puts out, but I like his writting style vs the others. If someone would ask AD what he thought the relations were between pigeons and horses, he'd tell you one poops on two legs and the other on four.


*You are I am hoping feigning ignorance of what I said Xueoo;"*That is just it...what is going on in the horse industry has nothing to do with what’s going on in the pigeon industry." 

It an Analogy or metaphor which is the cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the source) to another particular subject (the target). 

Too bad you did not learn real English in school there *Buck*-a-roo, instead it seems your part of the lost generation. Where no matter what you wrote about or how you wrote it, the teachers promoted you through school so you would not be embarrassed by your lack of knowledge.

There are many similarities between thoroughbred horse racing and the racing pigeon industry; you like many choose to ignore them. Many more similarities than it appears your mind is capable of comprehending. Or at least you pretend that is the case! 

Looks like your base of knowledge is very limited to say the least, or you like to pretend it is so you can play Dumb and make dumbass type comments. Such as I’ve never read enough of Ad. Your ignorance is astounding. 

Since you are so interested in my knowledge base, why don’t you try impressing everyone with your own knowledge instead of trying to belittle others! 

It simply shows you fall into the last category I mentioned:

"Still others will boo hoo what is said so that new fliers and some old alike won’t use the experience of other fliers to help them get over the wall instead of hitting their heads on it (all the while feeding them bull****, so they do OK but never excel). "


Better luck next time *Buck*-a-roo


----------



## Xueoo

lawman said:


> *You are I am hoping feigning ignorance of what I said Xueoo;"*That is just it...what is going on in the horse industry has nothing to do with what’s going on in the pigeon industry."
> 
> *It an Analogy or metaphor which is the cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the source) to another particular subject (the target). *
> Too bad you did not learn real English in school there *Buck*-a-roo, instead it seems your part of the lost generation. Where no matter what you wrote about or how you wrote it, the teachers promoted you through school so you would not be embarrassed by your lack of knowledge.
> 
> There are many similarities between thoroughbred horse racing and the racing pigeon industry; you like many choose to ignore them. Many more similarities than it appears your mind is capable of comprehending. Or at least you pretend that is the case!
> 
> Looks like your base of knowledge is very limited to say the least, or you like to pretend it is so you can play Dumb and make dumbass type comments. Such as I’ve never read enough of Ad. Your ignorance is astounding.
> 
> Since you are so interested in my knowledge base, why don’t you try impressing everyone with your own knowledge instead of trying to belittle others!
> 
> It simply shows you fall into the last category I mentioned:
> 
> "Still others will boo hoo what is said so that new fliers and some old alike won’t use the experience of other fliers to help them get over the wall instead of hitting their heads on it (all the while feeding them bull****, so they do OK but never excel). "
> 
> 
> Better luck next time *Buck*-a-roo


Lets not go into personal attacks. We can have a discussin without it. I can.

Anology is a comparision or similarity between the two. Metaphore is an expression or figure of speech. Opinion is a point of view or belief. 

Quote "what is going on in the horse industry has nothing to do with whats going on in the pigeon industry". 

My opinion of the anology of pigeon and horse racing is that the two cannot be compared as there are many things not similar in pigeon and horse racing, respectively. Many more that are not similar than that are similar.


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## Josepe

The Horse Sh*t is starting to get Old.Take it to the Paddock website.


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## lawman

Xueoo said:


> Lets not go into personal attacks. We can have a discussin without it. I can.
> 
> Anology is a comparision or similarity between the two. Metaphore is an expression or figure of speech. Opinion is a point of view or belief.
> 
> Quote "what is going on in the horse industry has nothing to do with whats going on in the pigeon industry".
> 
> My opinion of the anology of pigeon and horse racing is that the two cannot be compared as there are many things not similar in pigeon and horse racing, respectively. Many more that are not similar than that are similar.


*See you show that you ether have no knowledge and speak from ignorance only or that you are just pretending ignorance..... But you prove that you can learn how to act towards others: * 

I know this because I used an example of how you were acting towards others back on you and guess what you learned that sometimes instead of using personnel attacks, it’s better to just say your opinion and then agree to dis-agree.

For example I agree with Warren and many others that there are similarities between the two fields and *"IF"* you study them close enough you will know what I mean. 

I believe the similarities begin with over medicating our animals, in our case its pigeons. Many don’t have stock birds that have natural resistance to diseases, just like thoroughbreds and many other forms of live stock. 

Ad Schaerlaeckens, Silvio Mattacchione, Steven van Breeman and many other top fliers throughout the world talk about this! But guess what very few people realy listen and instead follow the easy paths to winning. 

Give your birds the right medications in the proper amounts just before a race and anyone’s birds can go to the top (well for a race or two then they will be done) that’s why the European Racing Union is so strict on medications and doping. 

What do you think would happen here in the USA if anything close to the restrictions that the Europeans have was even suggested? The final scene of the “Highlander” with Mel Gibson comes to mind. 

However Doping is a very big thing in Horseracing and eventually we will begin to control it ourselves or the Government will step in and force it upon us. Just like they did in the horse racing industry when they began regulating them.

So you see another example of just how closely related we are to horse racing and dog racing as well! 

It is only a matter of time! Start breeding from your birds that have natural immunities now or when the time comes you will be at the bottom of the race sheets for years if your able to recover at all!

I can go on and on from breeding techniques used in farm and racing animals to racing theories and mediactions that are similar. 

But your a smart guy or at least a smart A** that instead needs to pick up a book or five or six and study.

But thats it isn't it! your "belief" is based on theories you have, that are not based on knowledge but simple acceptance that something is true or factual without having to show proof, or learn by your own example, or by the examples of others. 

I hope I don't offend anyone here but I'm goiing to give another analogy: 
It is like having a belief in God, we cannot prove that he realy exists can we. We can have a strong belief! But proof will not exist until he returns in physical form to this earth and we see him with our own eyes and touch him with our own hands.


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## Crazy Pete

I'm with Xueoo on this I don't see any similarities between a horse and a pigeon. The horse does not need to be very smart, he only understands the whip, If you take a horse to a race track and turn it loose will it run?
Dave


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## lawman

Crazy Pete said:


> I'm with Xueoo on this I don't see any similarities between a horse and a pigeon. The horse does not need to be very smart, he only understands the whip, If you take a horse to a race track and turn it loose will it run?
> Dave


But this particular thread says "What can we learn from the Thoroughbred?" 

To my thinking it is part of the beauty of this website and others like it isn't it! If you don't like a particular thread you can just ignor it and go to a different one or start one that has a different premise. I've started many a one of my own when I did not like the message of one or found that maybe I needed to ask the question in a different way.

But like all things there is an old saying that fits perfectly. 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink! 

Analogy for: You can give someone the tools and knowledge to better their techniques in breeding and training, but you cannot make them use it!


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## triple7loft

How I feel as well Dave
At least with a pigeon you dont have to wait 11 months for them to be born..
Then another year to break them and then the training starts to see if you even have one that can make it to the two year old races.....All this time to wonder what you have !!!!!!!!



Crazy Pete said:


> I'm with Xueoo on this I don't see any similarities between a horse and a pigeon. The horse does not need to be very smart, he only understands the whip, If you take a horse to a race track and turn it loose will it run?
> Dave


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## West

Crazy Pete said:


> I'm with Xueoo on this I don't see any similarities between a horse and a pigeon. The horse does not need to be very smart, he only understands the whip, If you take a horse to a race track and turn it loose will it run?
> Dave


I disagree. When there's a fight for the finish in the stretch I believe what's inside that horse begins to show. Sure conditioning, jockey ability, track condition, etc play a factor but that makes it even more similar to pigeon racing. After all we take our pigeons hundreds of miles away and make them fly home. The pigeons would never reach their full potential unless forced (whipped?) away from home. As to horses not being smart, that's debatable. I personally don't think our pigeons are as smart as much as they were gifted with an amazing ability that is still very misunderstood today.


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## Crazy Pete

So I watched a horse race on youtube, when they come around the final stretch they don't whisper sweet nothings in the horses ear, they put the whip to work. The way I see it what is inside the horse is fear. MISTAKE FOUR
Especially in young bird racing it is important to have a good relationship with the pigeons. When a not successful fancier enters his loft his birds will want to get out as they do not trust him.

When a champion is among his birds they feel at ease, but he has them under control still. He is the general, the birds are his soldiers, and good soldiers are disciplined. Champions play with their birds whereas birds of the non-champion play with the fancier.
Dave


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## ejb3810

If someone is unable to see the relevance in a topic it might be best to just ignore it and go on to another that is of interest.
I can tell you for a fact that there is information related to breeding race horses and race pigeons that is relevant to someone that is able to recognize it and use it to advantage.
It does not have much to do with which is more intelligent. It has to do with genetics and how through learning and experience a stock man is able to advance his ability to devise techniques and systems to improve the performance characteristics of the offspring produced.


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## First To Hatch

Crazy Pete said:


> So I watched a horse race on youtube, when they come around the final stretch they don't whisper sweet nothings in the horses ear, they put the whip to work.


You got to saying that before I did. But I do think there are genetic similarities when it comes to trying to breed a good horse or pigeon. However the horse game is completely different, in pigeons you can see the "little guy" win all the time, but in horses its the guy who can afford a lot that will win. I'm not saying the most expensive horse, I'm saying the guy that can afford the best horse shoes, trainers, stables, feed, etc. and whatever costs a lot in horse racing. With pigeons I think that a guy with $50 or less pigeons will best out the guy that imported the birds from Europe.

We will get to see how well the best to best method works when the foal out of Rachel Alexandra and Curlin races.


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## triple7loft

Well said Hatch

I think pigeon men want pigeons to be like race horses.......
Again not even in the same ballpark.........
Horse racing is a almost a controlled arena..... pigeon flying not so much
Can you learn from the horse breeders, maybe some but two totally different species of critters.......




First To Hatch said:


> You got to saying that before I did. But I do think there are genetic similarities when it comes to trying to breed a good horse or pigeon. However the horse game is completely different, in pigeons you can see the "little guy" win all the time, but in horses its the guy who can afford a lot that will win. I'm not saying the most expensive horse, I'm saying the guy that can afford the best horse shoes, trainers, stables, feed, etc. and whatever costs a lot in horse racing. With pigeons I think that a guy with $50 or less pigeons will best out the guy that imported the birds from Europe.
> 
> We will get to see how well the best to best method works when the foal out of Rachel Alexandra and Curlin races.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

triple7loft said:


> Well said Hatch
> 
> I think pigeon men want pigeons to be like race horses.......
> Again not even in the same ballpark.........
> Horse racing is a almost a controlled arena..... pigeon flying not so much
> Can you learn from the horse breeders, maybe some but two totally different species of critters.......


 They certainly are different species, but I guess to a lot of folks that must mean that nothing can be learned from either the industry, the animal itself, or the people in and around the sport. 

A lot could be learned by the typical pigeon fancier, concerning veterinarian science, nutrition, etc. But much of that research has been done with animals other then pigeons, but ask anyone who has gone to medical school, the laws of nature apply to these other species as well. Learn more about any of them and it adds to one's base knowledge. Humans and pigeons are different species, but much can be learned from humans as well, even if they are different then pigeons. 

I guess it is just one of those things, where if you don't sit someone down and draw the picture for them, and then connect the lines, then they just look at you funny. Funny thing, Greegor Mendel was a pigeon fancier, he learned a lot about his pigeons from studying of all things, pea plants. Now how was that possible, after all...not even in the same ball park...can't even call them both critters ? 

For those not familiar with the work of Gregor Mendel. http://www.biography.com/people/gregor-mendel-39282


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## Crazy Pete

OK way back when I was just a kid 8 or 9 the only time I ever rode a horse " I found out later it was grandma's horse " it didn't like men at all, biting, kicking, tossed me off, and ever since then I thought the horse was a despicable critter and a total wast of air. Maybe there is some genetics we could learn and I just don't want to see it.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Crazy Pete said:


> OK way back when I was just a kid 8 or 9 the only time I ever rode a horse " I found out later it was grandma's horse " it didn't like men at all, biting, kicking, tossed me off, and ever since then I thought the horse was a despicable critter and a total wast of air. Maybe there is some genetics we could learn and I just don't want to see it.
> Dave


 How many other animals do we have three hundred years of very carefully kept breeding records, where athletic performance was the goal ? I find it curious that so few are even remotely interested in what can be learned from such breeding records. Perhaps they are more focused on racing then actually attempting to breed an even more advanced homing pigeon ?

Actually two very different disciplines and skill sets.


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## Crazy Pete

Warren as much as I hate to admit it you are usually correct, and the only critter that has been bread for performance is the horse, and the gray hound, and I'm just too stubborn to study them.
Dave


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## Kastle Loft

Crazy Pete said:


> I'm with Xueoo on this I don't see any similarities between a horse and a pigeon.
> Dave


I also have to disagree with this statement. Well, ok, a horse and a pigeon are entirely different. But horse racing and pigeon racing have many, many similarities. I live in horse country. I race pigeons. I've spent the last 6 weeks "embedded" with a potential Derby horse and it's owners and trainers. The things they talk about - training, strategy, fitness, breeding, selling - you could replace the word "horse" for "pigeon" in many of their sentences and we wouldn't know they were talking about another species. 

I'll give you an example. I'm working with a broodmare farm which is in the business of breeding mares and selling the babies. Their decisions of who to breed the mares to are very well thought out and based on a combination of - wait for it - PEDIGREES, CONFORMATION AND PAST PERFORMANCE. Sound familiar?

Here's the next step for a business like this: They race some of their babies. If those well-pedigreed babies grow up and win races themselves, then the value of that horse is raised exponentially. And so does the value of the mare. And so does the value of future foals from that mare. Sound familiar?



Crazy Pete said:


> The horse does not need to be very smart, he only understands the whip, If you take a horse to a race track and turn it loose will it run?
> Dave


And to this I will strenuously disagree. Do you think a dumb pigeon will consistently win? No it won't. If you pitch it in the air, will it fly? Of course it will. 

Winning horses are very intelligent, they are all genetically predisposed to run, and the best ones are highly competitive with each other. They are motivated to be in front. A horse's motivation may be different than a pigeon's, but motivation is a big factor in both sports. We are all trying to manipulate and capitalize on that natural ability and motivation.

The similarities between the sports are uncanny. And yes, we have a lot we can learn from the thoroughbred industry on both sides of the coin.


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## Lovelace

I use to be a Jockey, there is something that is different between horses and pigeons,
we bred 5 times more pigeons then they breed horses. so I think the pigeon breeding is way ahead horse breeding.


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## ejb3810

The biggest difference between pedigreed pigeons and pedigreed horses is the credibility of the pedigree. The ancestral information on that thoroughbred, standardbred, quarterhorse & etc is accurate. What you have on a pigeons pedigree in many cases is inaccurate for a number of reasons.


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## Kastle Loft

ejb3810 said:


> The biggest difference between pedigreed pigeons and pedigreed horses is the credibility of the pedigree. The ancestral information on that thoroughbred, standardbred, quarterhorse & etc is accurate. What you have on a pigeons pedigree in many cases is inaccurate for a number of reasons.


Wouldn't it be nice to start a pigeon registry akin to the Jockey Club? I'm surprised Pipa hasn't done that yet especially in light of the recent high-dollar scam involving De Locco.


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## First To Hatch

Kastle Loft said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to start a pigeon registry akin to the Jockey Club? I'm surprised Pipa hasn't done that yet especially in light of the recent high-dollar scam involving De Locco.


I've wanted that for so long. Also a database through the AU and IF where you type in the band number of a pigeon and you find out instantly who bred it. I've had to call 5 different people in some cases to get a pigeon back home, that is work that shouldn't need to be done.


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## Crazy Pete

Kastle Loft take 5 horses to the track no saddle, and then take your race horse and give it all you have and see if the other horses will try to win or just fallow you. Really let us know what happens, as some one who is afraid of horses, I would really like to know.

Sounds silly to be afraid of a horse, but they are like a dog, they can smell fear in a person.
Dave


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## raftree3

I think this picture speaks for itself.


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## lawman

raftree3 said:


> I think this picture speaks for itself.


Who said horses are not competative with each other?

hahahahah good pic!


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## First To Hatch

lawman said:


> Who said horses are not competative with each other?
> 
> hahahahah good pic!


Ditto!!! lol that is awesome!!!


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## Crazy Pete

Maybe they are more alike than I thought, all they want to do is fight.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Who said horses are not competative with each other?
> 
> hahahahah good pic!



Pretty much a generally accepted fact that some horse's will get mad at other horses attempting to get out front and take the lead. Some horses just don't want to follow and a good jockey and trainer will use that to their advantage. Gee....pigeon guys don't try to motivate their birds to want to fly home fast do they ? 

I could have really been "way out of the ball park" since some readers don't see the genetic connection between breeding a fast race horse and maybe breeding a faster racing pigeon. I could have really opened the field and asked, what can we learn from selective breeding in other species such as dairy cattle, since a lot of research and careful breeding records are available, but not nearly as long as horses. 

Call me crazy, I have invested a fair amount of time researching the topic of cattle breeding as well. I have visited on more then one occasion a breeders cooperative where Champion sires are housed and truly great sires still are fathering caves, decades after their passing because of modern technology. I have also interviewed and visited a number of dairy farmers and their operations. 

If one takes even a passing glance on where the science of genetics has taken us in terms of producing greater preforming milk cows, the same methods can be studied to see what applications might apply in advancing the homing pigeon. http://genex.crinet.com/dairy/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=501HO10218&lang=&Breed=GH

If one can not see the connections between horses and pigeons, then I suspect one would never see anything regarding cattle breeding as being of any educational value. With my discussions with dairy farmers, I have been able to see where there has been significant failures. And thus why there is a ressurgence of the older classic breeds. Health, disease resistance, immunity, life spans, etc has all suffered as a result. They produce more milk then ever, but they also set the seeds for the breeds destruction.

Naw....there is no indications that in the drive to produce faster speed type pigeons that immunity, life spans, productivity, homing ability, etc has not been effected, they are more hearty, disease resistant, and greater and demonstrate better homing ability then ever before, right ? No way that some of the same issues effecting horses and cows could also be applied to pigeon fanciers ? A number of posters have assured us these animals have four legs and thus there are no genetic lessons in selective breeding to be learned in other species we selectively breed could there ? Why....who would have thunk it ??

One could say there are more obvious lessons one can learn from the breeding of the Holstein cattle. They were in front of my face since I grew up around these milk cattle locally. Their life span has been cut in half. They require what seems to me to be a lot more medical intervention as they now have many more health issues then just forty years ago. I suspect similar types of things have occurred with our racing pigeons these last forty years. They require more health care to get and stay healthy, perhaps as a result of generations of birds being treated with every kind of anti-botic when there is even the slightest sniffle, and maybe again later "just in case". That and perhaps because racing pigeons no longer fly 1,000 and 1,500 mile events, or maybe not even 500 or 600 miles, they are somehow less able to find home then maybe they once did. Those and maybe ten other things I havn't thought of yet.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Lovelace said:


> I use to be a Jockey, there is something that is different between horses and pigeons,
> we bred 5 times more pigeons then they breed horses. so I think the pigeon breeding is way ahead horse breeding.


 In theory should be much easier. Pigeon can produce 2 generations in a single year, and produce 20x's + faster. The only other higher animals that man can effect future generations more rapidly, would be mice, rats and rabbits. Which is why they are animals of choice for selective breeding experiments. Can we learn anything from breeding those animals as well ? I should hope so.


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## R-Tune

the best to compare and learn from would be from bettas and cocks.. As its potential and everything is hidden within ones self like pigeons..everthing is almost identical to pigeons breeeding wise and everything.. One clutch can give u a dozen eggs.. bettas one batch can give u 100 eggs.. here it is illegal but overseas its legal and its vey high stakes...if u can produce good stock, know where to get good stock.... maintain the bloodline from both of those then u can maintain and do good with pigeons as its identical in every way ..Of course u gotta have stock sense.. without stock sense doesnt matter what u got.. it will degrade fast and i dont care if u have breeding genetics behind u or an expert... and do it in the lab .. the purpose of what we use these animals for are not like something we can see like for example breeding for colors in fancies.. it takes someone with stock sense to make and upgrade his stock.. so sooner or later u get a super every so many years.. And these champions with stock sense spend lots and lots of time with there animals wether its pigeons, cocks or bettas.. they know there bloodlines inside and out..they know the weakness and thus improve on the weakness. Hence they dont have loft managers or care takers..they dont care what it is. peds, etc or where it came from just as long as it makes there bloodline better and they dominate.. Again stock sense and love for what u do will make u a champion and dominate.. 

this is where all the great names of super champions come from...from unknown people that lives in remote areas.. they are not rich..they dont even know how to read or write (uneducated) but with great stock sense they produce all the great... not from breeding genetics nor labatories...As what we use them for they cannot be seen by sceintist but only seen with people with stock sense.....people with stock sense are the ones who made them what they are today...

Of course the majority of the people dont have stock sense...some have more money and some got connection.. will that make them succesful in what they are trying to do.. most likely not...

again i maybe an arrognant child and thinks he knows everything and dont listen to others.. who knows..._


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## lawman

R-Tune said:


> the best to compare and learn from would be from bettas and cocks.. As its potential and everything is hidden within ones self like pigeons..everthing is almost identical to pigeons breeeding wise and everything.. One clutch can give u a dozen eggs.. bettas one batch can give u 100 eggs.. here it is illegal but overseas its legal and its vey high stakes...if u can produce good stock, know where to get good stock.... maintain the bloodline from both of those then u can maintain and do good with pigeons as its identical in every way ..Of course u gotta have stock sense.. without stock sense doesnt matter what u got.. it will degrade fast and i dont care if u have breeding genetics behind u or an expert... and do it in the lab .. the purpose of what we use these animals for are not like something we can see like for example breeding for colors in fancies.. it takes someone with stock sense to make and upgrade his stock.. so sooner or later u get a super every so many years.. And these champions with stock sense spend lots and lots of time with there animals wether its pigeons, cocks or bettas.. they know there bloodlines inside and out..they know the weakness and thus improve on the weakness. Hence they dont have loft managers or care takers..they dont care what it is. peds, etc or where it came from just as long as it makes there bloodline better and they dominate.. Again stock sense and love for what u do will make u a champion and dominate..
> 
> this is where all the great names of super champions come from...from unknown people that lives in remote areas.. they are not rich..they dont even know how to read or write (uneducated) but with great stock sense they produce all the great... not from breeding genetics nor labatories...As what we use them for they cannot be seen by sceintist but only seen with people with stock sense.....people with stock sense are the ones who made them what they are today...
> 
> Of course the majority of the people dont have stock sense...some have more money and some got connection.. will that make them succesful in what they are trying to do.. most likely not...
> 
> again i maybe an arrognant child and thinks we knows everything and dont listen to others.. who knows..._


HI R-tune, 

I have to agree that "stock sense" is a major factor in creating bloodlines and developing top racers. 

I disagree that only the uneducated, poor and for lack of a better word down trodden have it. 

To me "stock sense" for most comes from years of working in the trenches (hands on) in your selective field of study. Add to that knowledge learned through studying other fields as well. And you suddenly have the men like, Fabry, Gurney, Sion, and so many othres that it would take hours to go through all of my books and list them all. 

Yes, then there were the Jansen Bros. who for the most part were uneducated. But the oldest of the brothers is almost unheard of because he was educated and traveled all over the world. But if you think he did not have the same or similar stock sense of his more famous brothers, well I think your wrong. During his travels he would visit other lofts all over Europe and from time to time bring back birds that were then added to the Jansen blood. 

Then we have more modern masters of "stock sense" such as Piet De Weerd, Ad Schaerlaeckens, Silvio Mattacchione, Steven van Breeman, again just to name a few. 

If you go back and take a good hard look not all, but most of these men who became masters of our sport were educated. They took the knowledge learned through the books available to them at that time and their own innate abilities to handle birds and over time saw to it that specific genetic factors were passed on to future generations. 

They became I believe what we all aspire to become. *They one and all became the masters of legend!*


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## Revolution Lofts

I agree with Warrens post. Immunity, health, resistance are all things that are often lost when you start to breed for one specific quality.

The same could be said about humans. You're sick and you go to the doctor. The doctor gives you some antibodies to take and you get better. Well its not your own immune system fighting the virus. We don't build up our own immune system naturally, we try to fight off viruses with artificial things.

Thousands of people nowadays die from the common flue every year.
Some people might say tylenol is great, but to be honest, due to the extensive usage for the past 19 years, Tylenol does not help me at all FOR ANYTHING.

Same goes for a lot of those over the counter products. They just don't help you anymore because your body is used to them. So you need stronger stuff to keep your body fit.

Here's a little secret about the health industry: As a child I used to get really sick (bad cough/flu/cold etc). A few times I went to the doctors as well. Well at the age of 7 or so, my doctor prescribed me a cough syrup. Did this cough syrup help? Yeah it sure did. But what it did was not cure my cough, it simply had codeine in it and it made me pass out every night. I'd wake up and I'd still have a cough, but not as bad since its been 24 hours. That night I'd take it again and the codeine would make me pass out.

Doing this for a couple days, the cough syrup got me through the days but it wasn't what was curing my cough. It was simply making me go to sleep so the cough went away by itself.

Now everytime I got sick, the doctor would prescribe me the codeine cough syrup. Now its not really helping me, its just hiding the cough for a temporary period.

Now, if I get sick, I rarely ever go see the doctor. I try to let my own immune system fight the virus, and within 3 days or so, its gone. I will no longer fall into the trap of the health industry and buy their products and decrease my own natural immunity. 

Same thing could be said about pigeons, there are hundreds of products out there for pigeons now. We give them this and that, not knowing the consequences. In return, we're getting birds that are weaker as far as natural immunity goes. 

I plan to medicate my birds rarely. Only things like a wormer before breeding and PMV vaccinations. That's about it. They kept pigeons naturally a hundred years ago with few medications if any, and the pigeons were still healthy. Why not try to improve that immunity rather than destroy it.


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## R-Tune

im referring to back in time even long before they were born to understand what im trying to say.. people get too caught up with what they read and so 4 fourth..Not saying that is wrong..it will help u ..

one must understand and have experince with countries like asain countries and understand fighting cocks, betas, and bulls. To fully understand and relize what im trying to say... asian countries are a good example because those countries most arent very educated..most super cocks and bettas come from uneducated countrymen.. not so much the educated ones.. and guess what?.. the educated ones are the one making money off of the unknown, uneducated ones, with all these imports.. and guess what those are the lesser ones not even from there best stock.. Most of the best is kept in there country..


where do names liek fabry, janssen or whomever that makes there name kown get there birds from... there unknown countrymen...everything has to start somewhere.. and that is where the unkown and uneducated stock sense people who knows nothing of breeding comes in.. sorry to say but u cannot buy stock sense with all the money in the wrold nor learn stock sense. u are born with stock sense!!!!

its hard to make someone see when he hasnt seen it yet or been there..but only from reading,, just like in the newspaper... is everything in the news paper correct and true? are the stories exactly like what the reporter wrote in the newspaper? Not unless u are that person they are writing about ... only u know what the truth and what really did happen... while others just assume its like this and that just because they read it in the papers..

u can compare stock sense to sports.. i can read all the info about golf.. how to hold the clubs. how to postre my body. i can practice and read my whole life time i will never be a champion.. if i wanst born with natrual abilities i get nowhere.. and then peole like tiger woods can just come out and do a hole in one...

my point is dont rely on everything u read to breed and maintain ur pigeon stock hoping it will get u there.. go with whatever stock sense u got nor let the pigeons sense choose its own mate if u you belive u got good pigeons...there sense is probably better then urs since no one can tell a good pigeon from a bad one..


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## LOFT 532

Hey Crazy Pete how's that crow tasting? When I read your comment about the "whip" I said to my self " this guy knows nothing about horses" then your later posts confirmed my thought. You really need to do your homework. And thanks to raftree3 for posting that picture, it just made my day. I'll quote my self and let the pros take it from here. "Let me say this, I don't know, I've never claimed to know, and if anyone else knows I'd sure like them to tell me. Just my .02, health, independence, blood, and the love for home makes a "good" pigeon, all those traits and a few others that NONE of us understand makes a "great pigeon. Good luck to all." 

LOFT 532 OUT


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## re lee

In many cases In pigeons It was a person WITH money enough to buy certion birds. Cross there lines and select the birds. THAT DID HELP the hobby.. Now yes just as the brothers bought a bird living in a rabbit coop And it went on to help there idea. THEN where SHOW BIRDS have a standard to breed towrds. Giving an idea to what you need as a guide. BUT there are MANY MANY birds out there that would lose a ONE BIRD SHOW. That are stock birds that can raise some really good show birds. Why because they have the needed quality to breed good show birds. And as in SHOW birds just because the bird is a show WINNER does not mean you need it in your breeding program. As agin. OFF SETTING faults to balance needs iS the idea. I have said it before Race people could learn from SHOW people If they chose to. BUT agin BIRDS must fly to be selceted well. NO do not have to win. But show they can be a consistant bird. PLUS race people FALL FOR FAD of the day birds all the time. Meaning this x bird is now being promoted and results are being made to see. And young birds are offered for sell. FAD of the day takes over. Sticking with like related birds. NOT mean same Family group. But same raced type. that can cross well And give a balanced need. Crossing A mule with a race horse Never wins anybody a race. And tears down The past and future Quality. Med/ and sprint type birds to SAME longer distance birds to same. And the every so often Med distance to that as need to maintain And solid return. And Every family line will produce all types IF reconized Some of those slower consistant birds May be the beeter distance birds. Even if it was a nest mate. So agin selection. through a solid idea gets met. And selection comes from the area You fly Because you test with you level of COMPITION. I dont know But over all pigeon racing AND sppeds HAve not really changed in 75 years. And New idea Are just a fluke. That someone was flying But did not see. Then others tried What they saw of it And claimed it works. NEVER saw a pigeon RACE in my life. BUT sure saw them come HOME Fast. We call it a race and they just think GET HOME.


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## NZ Pigeon

lawman said:


> HI R-tune,
> 
> I have to agree that "stock sense" is a major factor in creating bloodlines and developing top racers.
> 
> I disagree that only the uneducated, poor and for lack of a better word down trodden have it.
> 
> To me "stock sense" for most comes from years of working in the trenches (hands on) in your selective field of study. Add to that knowledge learned through studying other fields as well. And you suddenly have the men like, Fabry, Gurney, Sion, and so many othres that it would take hours to go through all of my books and list them all.
> 
> Yes, then there were the Jansen Bros. who for the most part were uneducated. But the oldest of the brothers is almost unheard of because he was educated and traveled all over the world. But if you think he did not have the same or similar stock sense of his more famous brothers, well I think your wrong. During his travels he would visit other lofts all over Europe and from time to time bring back birds that were then added to the Jansen blood.
> 
> Then we have more modern masters of "stock sense" such as Piet De Weerd, Ad Schaerlaeckens, Silvio Mattacchione, Steven van Breeman, again just to name a few.
> 
> If you go back and take a good hard look not all, but most of these men who became masters of our sport were educated. They took the knowledge learned through the books available to them at that time and their own innate abilities to handle birds and over time saw to it that specific genetic factors were passed on to future generations.
> 
> They became I believe what we all aspire to become. *They one and all became the masters of legend!*


Some of the belguim fanciers I have read and watched vids about are high end lawyers etc so to say this is where "ALL" good stock people come from is insane.


----------



## lawman

NZ Pigeon said:


> Some of the belguim fanciers I have read and watched vids about are high end lawyers etc so to say this is where "ALL" good stock people come from is insane.


Nz it is no more insane than R-tune trying to claim only the people without any education can have "stock sense"! It seems that you’re both trying to say the same thing, are you?

My point gentleman is you both seem only to see the end product of people like the Jansen Bros. They were if memory serves me correctly third generation pigeon fliers. Only the oldest brother ever left the family business got an education and traveled the world.

The Jansen’s had to hide their very best birds during the German occupation and only had a few survive. They began with nothing but the accumulated knowledge of third generation pigeon fanciers. 

Much like the uneducated breeders of fighting cocks, betas, and bulls of the Orient that R-tune was talking about. No they are and were not schooled in trade schools or colleges. They are and were schooled in a much harsher environment. I call it the world of hard knocks where only the fittest, smartest, strongest and quickest survive. 

These people of the orient have their stock sense come from the accumulated knowledge of whose who passed that knowledge down to them. Just as the Jansen’s began with nothing but the knowledge passed down to them from their father and grandfather.

Just as both of my son’s have the accumulated experience that has been gained by my brother and I passed on to them. My oldest is much like me in that he can look at and handle a bird and tell you if it’s ready for a specific race and can usually tell you after handling the birds which one will be the first home. He also has an excellent sense of how to pair up birds in specific pairings. My youngest can do this too but has since he was only 6 years old (and my club mates can attest to this) look at a group of birds in a crate (never handle any of them just by looking) and tell you within a short period of time which one he thinks will be the best and come home first. He is right almost every time! The few times he has been wrong the bird he picked came in second by a few seconds only on the clock.

In conclusion guys: a person’s job Be it a lawyer, police officer, doctor, nurse, garbage collector, mechanic, contractor, or unempleyed dosen't in and of itself mean squat. While the jobs they do may or may not give them extra cash to purchase more expensive birds (Ganus comes to mind) it does not mean that you can translate that into winning birds. That takes “Stock sense” and it can be accumulated in many different ways. 

The best way in my opinion is to have someone pass that knowledge down to you. Such as father to son, mentor to trainee, writer to reader in a blog, ect. The other way is to read and learn about the art of breeding, building proper lofts, racing techniques, ect. and do this by reading books.

Is there only one way to do this, heck no! The Saying that “ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME” comes to mind. All paths to victory are there if we can see them and more importantly duplicate them once we acheive them. 

The sad reality is that not every club has members who are willing to pass down their accumulated knowledge to the new guy. I have seen this first hand and been a victim of it. 

My brother and I learned by applying techniques we learned from books and applying the accumulated knowledge that was passed on to us by our uncles and father in the breeding of Horses, Cattle (Herefords not milk cattle, although the same techniques apply to both), Chickens (for human consumption not fighting) and Rabbits of all things. Along the way we were lucky enough to also gain the trust of some older fliers who passed on their direct knowledge of racing pigeons to us. 

Are we rich? Nope not even, not if you’re referring to money. But, if you’re referring to our base of knowledge and the ability to apply that knowledge to the world of racing pigeons? Then I think so. We have both (my brother and I) been listed at the top of the national results on the AU Database along with several of our club mates who we have by the way passed on much of what we know and on occasion passed on some of our birds. Matter of fact one of our club members took 4 out of 8 section wins in youngbirds of 2012 with birds bred down from our Staff Van Reets. 

Remember NZ that almost all of the fliers in Belguim are third, fourth, fifth generation pigeons fliers or more. If you think you can compete with that base of knowledge feel free to move over there and find out. Ganus and a few others have tried and failed for the most part.

So with that said you’re free to try what I tell you about or ignore it at your pleasure. However if asked a question I will never do to anyone what was done to me by passing on bogus information. What I pass on is what I myself have tried and use and in some cases have tried and discarded. Usually because it doesn’t work for me and I will tell you so.


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## R-Tune

my point is that all people with stock sense comes from all walks of life ..rich poor wahtever.. im saying back in the old days most were not educated and know no breeding genetics.. but it is what there stock sense makes them choose the right bird or animal to make there stock better and develop with there stock instinct.. that is y even when they sell or get rid of there flock its easy for them to climb back on top again ..again cause of there stock sense.. knowledge maybe pass but if u aint got no stock sense it aint gonna help u that much.. as compare to ur brother with a better stock sense.. he will be the on choosing the better animals..

just liek that article i read about that guy in canada.. where he didnt have that much money to spend but his stock sense helped him buy a very good bird that none can see whats lies within...and it turned out to be a very good breeder and he became a great racer... i would love to see ur knowledge from reading and ur techniques that u learn as a vetern pigeon and see if u can find a super breeder by looking at it..... like i said its not pass down u are born with it.. Does not matter weather u raise pigeons to coks , to cows , horse or whatever u will do good in what u raise and doesnt matter what u raise u do good...u can practice alll day or read all ur life if u dont have it u will never have it..just liek a pigeon if u cant pass on ur good genes doesnt matter how many times ur owner breeds u or crosses u ... u aint getting anything good.. thats probably y some people breed no good pigeons for years hoping to get something good .. and they give it like 5 to 10 years before they decide to get rid off it... those are the pigeons u should not buy... i find this funny..

lawman i hope we can compete on day..i think we will get along very good...theres a lot we can learn from eachother...

maybe u guys should let ur stock sense, what u know about genetics and ur pigeons sense guide u in that breeding process and dont rely 100 percent on breeding genetics... when all those things work together i belive u get very good stock that will be able to compete and maintain it for years... my 2 cents..


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## re lee

No you are not born with some thing. You learn it. And some learn better then others. Myself. I learned so much from other people. Joined a club. Learned there Visited other people loft learned there read when i was younger learned ther. BUT learned from People the best. And learned from The birds. I think a good solid CLUB has a wealth of learning. When members share there knowledge. I did learn one thing I valued VERY MUCH. I learned to keep my mouth shut and listen and ask questions. Never liked acting like I knew as much or more then the people I learned from. I would hear there words watch there birds. handle there birds And show them respect. RESPECT by some these days is not practiced. Some act like they now so much in a short time That nobody can tell or show them anything. Sad but true. If I could get back in the birds agin. I would shutup and listen to the people I needed to learn more from. Because there are many people who can help us learn. And I have seen several pass on And was glad to have known them. Shared some laughs. and shared some knowledge That helped me and helped others. Rich OR POOR a good pigeon person Has an idea. And both will share if one will listen and learn. Can not put a gaalon of water in a 8 ounce cup. So we must listen to learn


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## lawman

R-Tune said:


> my point is that all people with stock sense comes from all walks of life ..rich poor wahtever.. im saying back in the old days most were not educated and know no breeding genetics.. but it is what there stock sense makes them choose the right bird or animal to make there stock better and develop with there stock instinct.. that is y even when they sell or get rid of there flock its easy for them to climb back on top again ..again cause of there stock sense.. knowledge maybe pass but if u aint got no stock sense it aint gonna help u that much.. as compare to ur brother with a better stock sense.. he will be the on choosing the better animals..
> 
> just liek that article i read about that guy in canada.. where he didnt have that much money to spend but his stock sense helped him buy a very good bird that none can see whats lies within...and it turned out to be a very good breeder and he became a great racer... i would love to see ur knowledge from reading and ur techniques that u learn as a vetern pigeon and see if u can find a super breeder by looking at it..... like i said its not pass down u are born with it.. u can practice alll day or read all ur life if u dont have it u will never have it..just liek a pigeon if u cant pass on ur good genes doesnt matter how many times ur owner breeds u or crosses u ... u aint getting anything good.. thats probably y some people breed no good pigeons for years hoping to get something good .. and they give it like 5 to 10 years before they decide to get rid off it... those are the pigeons u should not buy... i find this funny..
> 
> lawman i hope we can compete on day..i think we will get along very good...theres a lot we can learn from eachother...
> 
> maybe u guys should let ur stock sense, what u know about genetics and ur pigeons sense guide u in that breeding process and dont rely 100 percent on breeding genetics... when all those things work together i belive u get very good stock that will be able to compete and maintain it for years... my 2 cents..


Well your style of typing (as if texting on a cell phone) tells me approx how old you are. It also tells me your have a lot more to learn than your willing to accept right now. 

Because young friend you read what you wanted to out of what I wrote. But you did not take the time to compreheand what was being said.

Experience and learning whether it is all hands on or with knowledge being passed down from generation to generation, from the master mason to the apprentise, or primarily from books and blogs like this one. you have to take that and traslate it, comprehend it and then take what you have learned (your base of knowledge) and then make it work for you.

If ignorance works for you then far be it for me to make you do it any different. Good luck to you.

There will come a time when you think back on this and say hey why didnt I ask the question differently or I wish we had talked more about something else. If you are not learning from your own experience and education, be that the school of hard knocks or in a college, then you are stagnating and going backwards. Then you will have to reinvent the wheel all over again!


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## Crazy Pete

Yum it's OK I can eat crow, at least I admit my ignorance when it comes to the horses. In my years here I see people that will put a bird in the stock loft for all the wrong reasons. I have never bread dog, rabbits, cattle or any thing but racing homers, and I admit I have a lot to learn about young bird racing. I would like to get into OLR's and I don't think studying a race horse will get me there.
Dave


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## R-Tune

so my style of typeing and dialact tells u that im a kid and im half black so in pigeon racing there arent that many blacks so i know nothing is that what u are saying..... maybe u are right... i accept and learn from what makes sense as some people dont got common sense ..


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## lawman

Crazy Pete said:


> Yum it's OK I can eat crow, at least I admit my ignorance when it comes to the horses. In my years here I see people that will put a bird in the stock loft for all the wrong reasons. I have never bread dog, rabbits, cattle or any thing but racing homers, and I admit I have a lot to learn about young bird racing. I would like to get into OLR's and I don't think studying a race horse will get me there.
> Dave


Dave, the one thing I can tell you is that the more I learn the more I realize I don't have all the answers. During the time of the Roman Empire they said *All roads lead to Rome!* and just as there is more than one road into Rome there is more than one path into the winners circle no matter what you breed or race. 

*You have to find what works for you!* 

The thing is finding the most direct path to Rome or to the winners circle. I can tell you one thing studying your chosen field, (horses or racing pigeons) and having good mentors can make all the difference in how fast you get there.


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## West

R-Tune said:


> so my style of typeing and dialact tells u that im a kid and im half black so in pigeon racing there arent that many blacks so i know nothing is that what u are saying..... maybe u are right... i accept and learn from what makes sense as some people dont got common sense ..


I don't see why you brought race into this. Personally if you spent a little extra time proofreading what you type it would be a whole lot easier to follow you and have a decent discussion. I understand English isn't everyones first language but jeez I feel like some people don't even TRY anymore.


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## R-Tune

my keyboard is missing keys.. so i have to guess the letters... .. and maybe its misunderstanding too...since i cant type like how i wanted to...by the time i have a thought and trying to figure out the letters i forgot my thoughs already..plus im working at the same time.. im not multi talent,,... hey im trying here..


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## conditionfreak

Ever see that TV commercial with the goldfish in a bowl and the narrator says, "Imagine having a memory that only lasts three seconds".

Then he says it again in three seconds.

And again in 3.

And again in 3.

etc. etc.

Too funny.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> .......
> 
> 
> My brother and I learned by applying techniques we learned from books and applying the accumulated knowledge that was passed on to us by our uncles and father in the breeding of Horses, Cattle (Herefords not milk cattle, although the same techniques apply to both), Chickens (for human consumption not fighting) and Rabbits of all things. Along the way we were lucky enough to also gain the trust of some older fliers who passed on their direct knowledge of racing pigeons to us.
> 
> .....


 I don't know what I was thinking. Very few postings on this thread was actually about what we can learn from the Thoroughbred, as some number of posters see nothing of value which can be learned. 

Like yourself, I was exposed to animal husbandry at a very early age and have practiced selective breeding with a number of species besides pigeons.

I don't know what exactly we can learn about breeding better pigeons by examining how professional breeders of other animals have approached their work. What were their methods ? Where were the shortfalls ? 

We know in the case of horses, like pigeons, the owners generally are over confident in their abilities as a selector. With all those high priced sires and dams, they still only get "into the money" 6% of the time. With all the talk about how fanciers only "select the best" for breeding loft (whatever that means) and then most claim to pair "best to best". 

Someone would have to do the math, but if that is what most do, or claim to do, then the typical fancier is going to continue to produce more of the same, in other words, your everyday typical homing pigeon. And if that is really what the average pigeon breeder is doing, that is...doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for better or different results, well that seems a bit insane. 

I am not going to try to change other peoples thinking in how they think "new and improved" varieties are created. I just wanted to know what you thought one could take from the lesson book of the horse breeding professional, if one was able to keep an open mind ?


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## lawman

R-Tune said:


> so my style of typeing and dialact tells u that im a kid and im half black so in pigeon racing there arent that many blacks so i know nothing is that what u are saying..... maybe u are right... i accept and learn from what makes sense as some people dont got common sense ..


Young man I learned two facts a long time ago (it almost seems like a different life):

1) There are no atheists on a battle field and 
2) We all of us bleed the same color (Red). 

There is only one race of humans left on this planet and that is **** sapiens or modern man. We do however have various ethnic groups that try to separate themselves from the masses. In most cases they do it in order to try and get something for nothing in my opinion. 

But nothing is free, not even the freedom that most of us cherish. Everything has a cost and to say freedom isn't free is the understatement of our times. 

I have no problem debating back and forth about theories and talking about individual experience as it relates to our understanding of a common bond all of us have on this site, the love of our pigeons. 

In my opinion as I stated before, you remind me of myself in many ways when I was your age. Trust me I was just as opinionated . 

That’s not all bad if you turn that same energy into striving to learn more. But do yourself and everyone else a big favor and keep the racial comments to yourself.


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## lawman

Warren I will try to answer your question without getting to heavily bogged down in the science of the genetics involved and how it is applied in the thoroughbred horses vs. racing pigeons. Like we said in the Army “KISS”, keep it simple stupid.

When you look at breeding a mare, you look at its ancestry and the ancestry of the stallion(s) you want to mate to it. You’re looking at the percentage of offspring produced vs. the number of top performers at the given distance you wish to race at. 

For example you have two stallions your thinking of mating to your mare. The first Stallion is extremely popular and has produced 100 foals on various similarly bred mares, but has only produced one or two offspring that went on to become a top racers. The second Stallion your looking at has only produced 35 youngsters on various mares but has produced 5 top racers. 

But the second stallion is not as well known and from a smaller less well known breeder than the first Stallion. The first Stallion is owned by someone like a Ganus for example who does heavy advertising all over the country. 

The smart breeder is going to look at the production records and race results for the parents and grandparents of the mare and stallion to be paired and choose the second stallion. He is maximizing the chances of producing a top racer at the distances he wishes to be competitive at. 

You have to remember that just like the current trend in pigeons. The current trend in racing thoroughbreds is to produce short distance speed horses. This has created a vacuum where very few breeders are pairing for longer distance endurance racing. There is just no call for this type of horse to be produced. But you need this endurance blood to give the stamina that is needed on longer tracks. 

This is in part why I stated that the modern Thoroughbred if it’s to be truly saved needs to have an infusion of Arabian blood (and perhaps some Quarter horse or even Appaloosa blood added to it) Both the Modern day Appaloosa’s and Quarter Horses were heavily influenced by the Thoroughbreds. The original Appaloosa’s were bred from wild mustangs (Arabian blood). But no horse of mixed ancestry can race against Thoroughbreds in the same event because they are not of pure bred stock. 

Now go back and replace mare with hen and stallion with cock and we could be talking pigeons instead of horses. As many of the problems that we have both talked about can be directly related from one species to the other. The same rules of breeding can and should be applied. We also see the same loss of stamina in our birds (we call it homing instinct in most cases) by emphasizing the short speed races many of our bloodlines have lost the ability to be competitive at the longer distances just as is now happening in the Thoroughbreds. To many of us stock the one time wonders, you all know the bird who only won one race. Then wonder why the bird cannot produce its like or better, it has yet to prove itself even in competition. 

This is why in my opinion many of the European racing organizations have begun to develop and specialize in distance racing again. We here in the US were once the Kings of distance racing. But we became enthralled with the short distance speed birds and now have massive losses of birds in major part due to lack of stamina (homing ability).


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## ejb3810

For too many in the horse sport or pigeon sport the quick fix is what is being sought after.
The hot new stallion or the new named fad in pigeon strains. The real road to success is a journey and not a destination, in my opinion.
To me, the real challenge and enjoyment in the pigeon sport is about working with a colony of pigeons in an effort to advance and improve their general performance in the races. This means that one must invest the time and concentrated effort to learn what it takes to produce birds that improve as opposed to just maintaining or regressing in quality. If one were to study thoroughbred breeding history it is filled with lessons that can be applied to the practice of breeding race pigeons.


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## First To Hatch

conditionfreak said:


> Ever see that TV commercial with the goldfish in a bowl and the narrator says, "Imagine having a memory that only lasts three seconds".
> 
> Then he says it again in three seconds.
> 
> And again in 3.
> 
> And again in 3.
> 
> etc. etc.
> 
> Too funny.


LOL. Way to break the tension Walt!!


----------



## lawman

First To Hatch said:


> LOL. Way to break the tension Walt!!


yeah, yeah, yeah....... I'm visualizing your eyes rolling back into your head even with the basic's (very basic so everyone could understand).

I've read articles in the past where Condition Freak wrote similar articles, only he stressed how we humans in training for various events were just like the birds.

I'd be willing to bet you had the same expression of your face. 

If it helps you great, If it doesn't well no harm in reading a new (very old technique) of breeding is there!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Warren I will try to answer your question without getting to heavily bogged down in the science of the genetics involved and how it is applied in the thoroughbred horses vs. racing pigeons. Like we said in the Army “KISS”, keep it simple stupid.
> 
> When you look at breeding a mare, you look at its ancestry and the ancestry of the stallion(s) you want to mate to it. You’re looking at the percentage of offspring produced vs. the number of top performers at the given distance you wish to race at.
> 
> For example you have two stallions your thinking of mating to your mare. The first Stallion is extremely popular and has produced 100 foals on various similarly bred mares, but has only produced one or two offspring that went on to become a top racers. The second Stallion your looking at has only produced 35 youngsters on various mares but has produced 5 top racers.
> 
> But the second stallion is not as well known and from a smaller less well known breeder than the first Stallion. The first Stallion is owned by someone like a Ganus for example who does heavy advertising all over the country.
> 
> The smart breeder is going to look at the production records and race results for the parents and grandparents of the mare and stallion to be paired and choose the second stallion. He is maximizing the chances of producing a top racer at the distances he wishes to be competitive at.
> 
> You have to remember that just like the current trend in pigeons. The current trend in racing thoroughbreds is to produce short distance speed horses. This has created a vacuum where very few breeders are pairing for longer distance endurance racing. There is just no call for this type of horse to be produced. But you need this endurance blood to give the stamina that is needed on longer tracks.
> 
> This is in part why I stated that the modern Thoroughbred if it’s to be truly saved needs to have an infusion of Arabian blood (and perhaps some Quarter horse or even Appaloosa blood added to it) Both the Modern day Appaloosa’s and Quarter Horses were heavily influenced by the Thoroughbreds. The original Appaloosa’s were bred from wild mustangs (Arabian blood). But no horse of mixed ancestry can race against Thoroughbreds in the same event because they are not of pure bred stock.
> 
> Now go back and replace mare with hen and stallion with cock and we could be talking pigeons instead of horses. As many of the problems that we have both talked about can be directly related from one species to the other. The same rules of breeding can and should be applied. We also see the same loss of stamina in our birds (we call it homing instinct in most cases) by emphasizing the short speed races many of our bloodlines have lost the ability to be competitive at the longer distances just as is now happening in the Thoroughbreds. To many of us stock the one time wonders, you all know the bird who only won one race. Then wonder why the bird cannot produce its like or better, it has yet to prove itself even in competition.
> 
> This is why in my opinion many of the European racing organizations have begun to develop and specialize in distance racing again. We here in the US were once the Kings of distance racing. But we became enthralled with the short distance speed birds and now have massive losses of birds in major part due to lack of stamina (homing ability).


 Well then we are at/on the very same page. 

Part I never really understood, is why rules were written to close the family tree to any sort of horse. The goal after all is not to produce just a very fast horse, but to breed from only within a very specific family tree. Of course talk to the owner of very prestigious Arabian horses and they will of course have their own ideas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMe4BkCRU1s

In addition to the the distance of which I suspect you are correct. I also think in addition to one or two race wonders being selected as "best", the sometimes extraordinary medical assistance which was required to get the "Best" bird to remain healthy, is another possible example of weakness and adverse selection at play. 

This thought has been very much on my mind, and I am trying to think of some good reasons why I shouldn't organize a 1,000+ mile race, even if it turns out to be a one man race. It presents some challenges for a YB specialist such as myself. I am presuming that I would have to conduct such a race some months after the YB races, but before spring YB's are out and about. In the old days, it was thought you didn't even send yearlings to a 500. They were babied along first couple years, and then they matured into OB fliers, and after a long career flying..maybe to ripe old age of 7 or 8, and then would spend another 7 or 8 more years in the breeding loft. 

In attempting to breed a fast maturing YB, maybe the "distance" for the YB is only 350 or 400 miles ? Perhaps the ceiling for a YB is much closer to 400 miles then 1,000 ? Or was the slow maturing part, a trait that could be bred out based on better selection ? Part of me thinks sending a YB to a 1,000 mile release point, even at a year old might just be some kind of fool on a fool's errand. Then again, even if the distance of 500 miles is settled on, would that be enough of a test ? What distance would a bird need to return from at a year of age, which would insure that the bird was, first and foremost a homing pigeon ?


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## Xueoo

Hows the discussion going? Breed any horses lately?


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## Revolution Lofts

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In attempting to breed a fast maturing YB, maybe the "distance" for the YB is only 350 or 400 miles ? Perhaps the ceiling for a YB is much closer to 400 miles then 1,000 ? Or was the slow maturing part, a trait that could be bred out based on better selection ? Part of me thinks sending a YB to a 1,000 mile release point, even at a year old might just be some kind of fool on a fool's errand. Then again, even if the distance of 500 miles is settled on, would that be enough of a test ? What distance would a bird need to return from at a year of age, which would insure that the bird was, first and foremost a homing pigeon ?


I was looking at my clubs proposed young bird race schedule for 2013. The longest race is 350 miles. I was thinking that after the race reason which ends at the end of September for ybs here, send every remaining young bird on a 600 mile toss in order to really test their homing ability. Now I don't know what good it'll do, but I'm sure some birds will perform better than others. Then when looking at the race results from this year, I can determine whether any young bird is worth bringing into the breeding loft.

600 miles or 700/800. Haven't decided that yet.


----------



## conditionfreak

I don't subscribe to sending a bird to a distance that. IMO, the bird has little to no chance of coming back from.

I send birds that "should" come back, from whatever distance I am sending them to that day.

I won't throw them away, just to cut down how many I have to feed through a winter.

I will send birds to a 1,000 mile race, that I believe have a decent chance of making it home. It can be done and it has been done. And for sure, birds can be lost. In ANY race distance. That comes with the sport, sadly. Human athletes also get "lost" in sports sometimes. Same with horses and dogs.

But a bird has to have demostrated to me, an ability to make it home from a 300, before it goes to a 500. It has to have demostrated to me an ability to come home from a 600, before I would consider sending it to my "imaginary" 1,000. ("imaginary" because no one around here is racing from that far anymore)

I do know of the old saying that "if a bird can make it home from one hundred miles, it can make it home from 1,000 miles". 

In theory, yes. But realistically, no.

It would not even cross my mind to send a young bird to 1,000 miles. Nor 700. Nor 500. Maybe 400.


----------



## Pigeon0446

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> We know in the case of horses, like pigeons, the owners generally are over confident in their abilities as a selector. With all those high priced sires and dams, they still only get "into the money" 6% of the time. With all the talk about how fanciers only "select the best" for breeding loft (whatever that means) and then most claim to pair "best to best".


Just like pigeon racing the money only goes so far so no matter how many really good horses are bred there's still only so many prizes to go around so of course most aren't gonna make it in the money. Just like in pigeon racing say a club has 10 races and the money goes 3 ways each race. That's only 30 prizes for the YB season meanwhile there could be 30 lofts that on average breed 100 birds each. For a total of 3000 birds bred. So that means only 1 percent of the birds bred in that club will ever win money. So if you bree 100 YB's in a club like I just talked about and you had 3 YB's make it in the money your doing pretty good since you won more then your share of the prizes. You could have 20 Secretariat's in a race and only 3 of them will win a prize.


----------



## Xueoo

After the kentucky derby lets send them to the desert and run a 10K because we need a tougher thoroughbred.


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## Josepe

I agree with Walt(Conditionfreak) in testing,and Knowing your bird's capability at the 300/400/600 before even thinking about anything longer.With pushing them Too far Too soon Some percentage of birds Could have the Brains but not the Brawn.Some birds don't even come into their own until 3 yrs. old.Sending a YB to a 1000 mi race to me is an unfair expentency of the bird.And how many birds bred today do you think is actually capable of that distance? Possibly someone who has some old line Stichelbauts or Osmonds.


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## lawman

Xueoo said:


> After the kentucky derby lets send them to the desert and run a 10K because we need a tougher thoroughbred.


*Xueoo* old buddy old pal I just knew you couldn’t let it go.

It's easier than that young friend, if you think your birds are up to flying the desert you have one of three ways to do it. 

You can make friends with anyone you want in the 395 Concourse and send your youngsters out and have them flown here. Many of us also fly the East Course Combine. Difference between the two in young birds not much. 395 fly’s north and east course as it says fly’s east, both from So. California.

Your birds will face heavy head winds and cross winds on any given race (either direction). Occasionaly you will get a tail wind due to weather but that’s a rare occurrence. 

The 395 flies north so the birds literally fly right by Death Valley, if there stupid and or just take a wrong turn you will never see them again, what looks like water from the air is salt brines. One sip and they won’t make it 10 miles before they go down and well we all know the answer from there. East course doesn’t fair much better as the birds have to fly across open dessert all the way home and right past the salton sea. if they go down for water there well they are done for.

That covers your first two options, however if you think your birds have what it takes but don’t want to trust new friendships. Then send your birds to any of 5 different one loft races that I can think of. There are several (if you take your time to look them up) that fly these same courses. The only part of the USA where the birds will race similar conditions is Texas.

Then you have old birds as the 395 rounds its way up through the Sierra Nevada’s all the way up to Oregon. We have several members that flew the Winnemucca race last year so the 395 is tuning the last several races towards that location, though the upper part of Nevada. It will be interesting to watch the final results.


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## Xueoo

I just want to discuss more about thoroughbreds and racing pigeons and the relationship between the kentucky derby and racing headwinds, etc.


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## ejb3810

It is unfortunate that when some individuals don't have anything intelligent to add or don't purportedly have any interest in a topic that they feel a need to throw figurative stones.
It seems that some are more interested in causing problems than doing things of value.


----------



## lawman

Xueoo said:


> I just want to discuss more about thoroughbreds and racing pigeons and the relationship between the kentucky derby and racing headwinds, etc.


But you said this in prior post "After the kentucky derby lets send them to the desert and run a 10K because we need a tougher thoroughbred."

I gave you an example of how you could do that with your racing pigeons. That didn't work the way you wanted it to did it.

So now you come back with "I just want to discuss more about thoroughbreds and racing pigeons and the relationship between the kentucky derby and racing headwinds, etc." You obviousy need to go back and read more of what both Warren and I wrote, the information is there and I don't care to rehash it now.

It seems to me you don't understand the relationship of how Thoroughbred race horses or any other type of horse breeding is done in comparison to Racing Pigeons. 

You dont want to understand it so therefor you simply try to stir the excrement that comes out of the south end of a north bound Donkey. 

So their ya go now we have donkeys in the mix too. 

Go pick up a book on how to breed animals, perferably livestock, or horses, they all cover the same basics once you get past some of the terms used in breeding specific animals. Then pick up some of the books about breeding racing pigeons, you will see that you can change the names in each book (from horse to pigeon) and not know that you wanted to know more about breeding horses when you were in fact reading a pigeon book and visa versa. 

Sinse you dont want to learn from others, it's simple go study!


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## Pigeon0446

lawman said:


> But you said this in prior post "After the kentucky derby lets send them to the desert and run a 10K because we need a tougher thoroughbred."


Have you ever hear of sarcasim? He said that because Revolution Lofts said he was thinking of taking his YB's 700/800 miles after YB season to see who has homing ability. He's saying that's just as stupid as taking a thoroughbred out in the desert and making them run a 10k it isn't gonna make a better race horse especially for the Kentucky Derby's 1 1/4 mile distance. Just like making a YB fly 700 miles isn't gonna make a better race pigeon.


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## lawman

conditionfreak said:


> I don't subscribe to sending a bird to a distance that. IMO, the bird has little to no chance of coming back from.
> 
> I send birds that "should" come back, from whatever distance I am sending them to that day.
> 
> I won't throw them away, just to cut down how many I have to feed through a winter.
> 
> I will send birds to a 1,000 mile race, that I believe have a decent chance of making it home. It can be done and it has been done. And for sure, birds can be lost. In ANY race distance. That comes with the sport, sadly. Human athletes also get "lost" in sports sometimes. Same with horses and dogs.
> 
> But a bird has to have demostrated to me, an ability to make it home from a 300, before it goes to a 500. It has to have demostrated to me an ability to come home from a 600, before I would consider sending it to my "imaginary" 1,000. ("imaginary" because no one around here is racing from that far anymore)
> 
> I do know of the old saying that "if a bird can make it home from one hundred miles, it can make it home from 1,000 miles".
> 
> In theory, yes. But realistically, no.
> 
> It would not even cross my mind to send a young bird to 1,000 miles. Nor 700. Nor 500. Maybe 400.


I have to agree with you I would want to get my birds ready for a thousand miler by having a couple of 600 milers set two weeks apart, then at least one 750 two weeks after the last 600. Then give them at least three weeks to recoup time before moving on the 1000 mile point. 

I know I’ve read this the some of the history of the Trentons and the Abilenes. And if you look at the old thousand mile races once they got out much beyond 500 they started giving time off between races. Both were still very popular in the 80’s when I first started flying competitively. The club I was a member of promoted the race for all of Southern California. 

Unfortunately after the club broke up no one else was interested in keeping it going. It was about that time that I went into the Army.

This is an except of what Milton Haffner had to say about how he prepped birds for the 1000 milers. Milton E. Haffner of Fort Wayne, Indiana is recognized as one of the best 1000 mile racing pigeon experts in the United States.In November 1979 he was the guest speaker at the Washington State R.P. Organization Convention.

My family of birds which I call my Abilenes are a four way cross - the old Fort Wayne Trentons, Grooters, Bastins and Bricoux which I myself brought into Fort Wayne. I found back in the late 40's that this four way cross gave me everything I wanted in the way of good type and smart birds. 

I do admire long and wide flight feathers which is a characteristic of my birds. I do not like to ship a bird to the 1000 mile station until it has been to the 500 and 600, which means it must be in its 4th year of flying. I do not like to send yearlings to the 500 or 600. only to 275 miles. Then the 3rd year to 500 and 600. 

Now, how do I prepare the bird for a 1000 mile flight? The year that I intend to ship the bird to the 1000 mile race, I only enter it in the first 100 mile race of the season. Then for about three weeks before the 1000. I try to get the bird or birds to 50 miles about 3 times a week. and feed them quite heavy so they have good body. 

Basically he doesn't burn his birds up as youngbirds or yearlings, He allows them to mature into the long distance phnominums that the Abilenes were.


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## Revolution Lofts

Pigeon0446 said:


> Have you ever hear of sarcasim? He said that because Revolution Lofts said he was thinking of taking his YB's 700/800 miles after YB season to see who has homing ability. He's saying that's just as stupid as taking a thoroughbred out in the desert and making them run a 10k it isn't gonna make a better race horse especially for the Kentucky Derby's 1 1/4 mile distance. Just like making a YB fly 700 miles isn't gonna make a better race pigeon.


I was leaning more towards 600 miles which is pretty reasonable at the yearling stage after flying in all 8-10 races of the season up to 400 miles, and then I can further give them a training toss from 500, 550, and finally 600. 

If I train them like that, I don't think they'd have a problem with sending birds that have been given proper rest, feed, and not sending birds that aren't in shape to make it back. 

The only reason I mentioned 700/800 miles was that over time, one would assume that breeding towards a bird that performs well at 300 miles (good enough for one loft races) but has also been selected after it came home successfully from a 600 miles, will in return produce birds with better long distance homing ability if selected right.

Over time my "sprinters" would turn into birds that are competitive in the shorter distances 250-350 miles, but can also come home from 600 miles. More like the middle distance birds.


----------



## Pigeon0446

Revolution Lofts said:


> I was leaning more towards 600 miles which is pretty reasonable at the yearling stage after flying in all 8-10 races of the season up to 400 miles, and then I can further give them a training toss from 500, 550, and finally 600.
> 
> If I train them like that, I don't think they'd have a problem with sending birds that have been given proper rest, feed, and not sending birds that aren't in shape to make it back.
> 
> The only reason I mentioned 700/800 miles was that over time, one would assume that breeding towards a bird that performs well at 300 miles (good enough for one loft races) but has also been selected after it came home successfully from a 600 miles, will in return produce birds with better long distance homing ability if selected right.
> 
> Over time my "sprinters" would turn into birds that are competitive in the shorter distances 250-350 miles, but can also come home from 600 miles. More like the middle distance birds.


Read Lawman's last post about Milton E. Haffner of Fort Wayne, Indianawho was recognized as one of the best 1000 mile racing pigeon experts in the United States back on the 70's. His birds didn't go past 275 miles as a yearling. I'm pretty hard on my birds they fly every race they are in shape for as well a train them hard between the races. I have birds including my Hall of Fame winner that flew over 2300 miles in races over the corse of the YB season not including the 200 miles of tosses the bird went on each week between races. So that's another 3,000 miles of flying. But I don't see how having a bird fly 700/800 miles in one shot is gonna make a better race bird when most races are 300 miles or shorter. You will make a better homing pigeon. That might be able to win 1,000 mile races but who are you gonna be flying against yourself? Plus I respect my birds and want to give all my birds a chance and making them fly 700/800 miles isn't giving them a chance to me. Oh and what happend to ther 200 bird OB team your looking to have if you take your YB's out to 700/800 miles you'll be lucky to have a handfull of birds left each year.


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## Josepe

Milton Haffner had the right way and Common Sense way of going about his training for the distance.And also not burning his birds out.Forgot about the Trentons.They were known for the 1000 mi races.

Revolution,
I beleive you're in for alot of Disappointments.


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## lawman

Revolution Lofts said:


> I was leaning more towards 600 miles which is pretty reasonable at the yearling stage after flying in all 8-10 races of the season up to 400 miles, and then I can further give them a training toss from 500, 550, and finally 600.
> 
> If I train them like that, I don't think they'd have a problem with sending birds that have been given proper rest, feed, and not sending birds that aren't in shape to make it back.
> 
> The only reason I mentioned 700/800 miles was that over time, one would assume that breeding towards a bird that performs well at 300 miles (good enough for one loft races) but has also been selected after it came home successfully from a 600 miles, will in return produce birds with better long distance homing ability if selected right.
> 
> Over time my "sprinters" would turn into birds that are competitive in the shorter distances 250-350 miles, but can also come home from 600 miles. More like the middle distance birds.


Yeah I was just giving an example of how it could be accomplished.

Remember our birds of today mature (at least most of them) at a much faster rate than in the past of 30-40 years ago when the Abilenes were popular. Let alone when the trentons were the studs of the block 100 years ago. 

My best breeding cock is half grondeleer and half staff van reet. The father (grondeleer) was flown in one of the "City of Hope races" the owner then turned around and retrained him to his home loft and he flew out to the 600 many times after that. The hen was flown out to the 500 and is still alive and kicking at a ripe old age of 19 years (unfortunately infertle however)

In youngbirds our longest race is out to the 350 mark for me. although it is over a 400 for the longest lofts in our concourse. 

So could a young bird make 500 I think so. If it had proper rest before being sent to that distance just as you stated. Then as a yearling or 2 year old on to 600-700. Then as a 3 year old on to the 1000, Maybe? It would be interseting to say the least to give it a try again. 

I know the guys in my concourse that are at the top competition wise in the long distance races will only send birds to the 500 and 600 that are 3 years or older. 

Back in the 80's I sent birds to the 600 mile races and did extremily well. The first year was a fabry jansen cross the second was a husken van reil jansen cross. Back then it was quite a feit to get day birds at that distance. 17th out of 23 the first year and 14th out of 29 the second year both at Combine level. I had a lot of old fliers very upset that someone with only two years racing could beet them the first year and they said it would never happen again, when I beet them the second year in a row. Didnt take top honnors ether year but did more than well enough for them to start taking me more serious. 

I only tried the 1000 one year (that was just before I left for the Army) the bird I sent was a 3 year old and while it did make it home which was a feit in and of itself. it came in 3 weeks after the race was called. In my heart I think someone trapped him in and then released him after the race (as he was not down even one ounce) but we'll never know. He was old blood Herman (Chicago Bekeart) that was real popular in So California back in the 80's.


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## Crazy Pete

I have Fabry and fabry crosses that I wouldn't be afraid to send to 1000 miles that are 4 years or older. Now if you have Ganus or CBS birds, I don't care if they are young birds or 4 year old if you send them to 1000 miles you better give them a big kiss goodby first. none of the birds of today have the body for it.
Dave


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## Revolution Lofts

Pigeon0446 said:


> Read Lawman's last post about Milton E. Haffner of Fort Wayne, Indianawho was recognized as one of the best 1000 mile racing pigeon experts in the United States back on the 70's. His birds didn't go past 275 miles as a yearling. I'm pretty hard on my birds they fly every race they are in shape for as well a train them hard between the races. I have birds including my Hall of Fame winner that flew over 2300 miles in races over the corse of the YB season not including the 200 miles of tosses the bird went on each week between races. So that's another 3,000 miles of flying. But I don't see how having a bird fly 700/800 miles in one shot is gonna make a better race bird when most races are 300 miles or shorter. You will make a better homing pigeon. That might be able to win 1,000 mile races but who are you gonna be flying against yourself? Plus I respect my birds and want to give all my birds a chance and making them fly 700/800 miles isn't giving them a chance to me. Oh and what happend to ther 200 bird OB team your looking to have if you take your YB's out to 700/800 miles you'll be lucky to have a handfull of birds left each year.



To each their own, but I want to breed a homing pigeon that actually thinks and gets home on its own, not following birds 3/4ths of the way home with the rest of the flock. 

I have different training styles than everyone else and that's due to a number of factors. I don't stick to one program that everyone else does. I'm planning on doing what works for me, so I'm not sticking to a particular "system". At the end of the day, we as pigeon fanciers are just coaches. Every coach has his/her own training style. Mine just happens to be similar to that of John Tortorella's of the NY Rangers. 

As for the OB team, I'm only flying young birds for the next 5-6 years. If you go back to my original thread you'll read that it was only an idea


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## Revolution Lofts

lawman said:


> Yeah I was just giving an example of how it could be accomplished.
> 
> Remember our birds of today mature (at least most of them) at a much faster rate than in the past of 30-40 years ago when the Abilenes were popular. Let alone when the trentons were the studs of the block 100 years ago.


No doubt about it that there are birds out there who won't have a problem at 600-700 miles. 

It just all comes down to what you are intending to breed. If you keep that mindset, soon your entire loft will be focused around that trait (whether its short distance/sprint fast birds or long distance/grit birds)


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## Xueoo

ejb3810 said:


> It is unfortunate that when some individuals don't have anything intelligent to add or don't purportedly have any interest in a topic that they feel a need to throw figurative stones.
> It seems that some are more interested in causing problems than doing things of value.


There's more thought and intelligence in small stones than a whole page full of "value". Without an opposing view, this thread goes nowhere. 

Now, it's about long distance pigeon racing and not the relationship between thoroughbreds and racing pigeons.


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## lawman

Xueoo said:


> There's more thought and intelligence in small stones than a whole page full of "value". Without an opposing view, this thread goes nowhere.
> 
> Now, it's about long distance pigeon racing and not the relationship between thoroughbreds and racing pigeons.


*Xueoo: *Your the one who more or less turned the topic with the statement of, "After the kentucky derby lets send them to the desert and run a 10K because we need a tougher thoroughbred." 

And what kind of horse runs in the desert, Arabians. Amazingly fast over short distances but have stamina to spare for for the long haul. The only modern day horses that still compete at long distances other than the Arabians is the Appaloosa.They were primarily breed down from the wild mustangs, which were brought here by the Conqistadors and were what, wait for it, wait...... Mostly? Arabians.

So what you have is like most trends we tend to go back and forth from the middle to the edges of a topic and eventually end back on target again. *Lodgical evolution my friend!*

And now were talking about maybe being able to re-instate the distance racing back into our homers. But were really talking about Thoroughbreds


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## Revolution Lofts

http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/whats-new/secret-4-look-for-evidence-of-homing-and-navigation-qualities/


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## Revolution Lofts

http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/whats-new/culling-unproductive-flyers-and-breeders-part2of2/


Quote from article: 

"BRIEF SUMMARY: CULL MEANS REGARDLESS OF BLOODLINES, STRAINS, COST OR ORIGIN, YOU MUST ELIMINATE ALL BIRDS FROM THE RACE TEAM OR BREEDING LOFT THAT ARE GIVING YOU BAD RESULTS AND PREVENTING YOU FROM IMPROVING.

Cull any birds that are not of superior health and any breeders that do not produce strong, healthy young. Cull any birds if they are hard to settle and manage. Cull any birds that do not loft fly and train easily. Cull any birds that cannot keep up with the rest of the team and appear to have no excuse for being late. Check your records, if this is a common problem with several birds from a particular pair, then they must go. Cull any pair in which you have heavy losses each year or poor homing ability. Cull any flyers that after 2 years have not finished consistently in the top 10% of their races. Cull any pair that has not produced good racers even though their young are not lost. Cull all birds that cannot handle the tough races, regardless of the distance. Cull all birds with poor recovery periods that cannot race over 50% of the race schedule.

As you cull and eliminate birds, you look to keep and breed from the best. Three or four pair of proven stock birds can take a fancier a long way in a race season and many through years to come."


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## Xueoo

lawman said:


> *Xueoo: *Your the one who more or less turned the topic with the statement of, "After the kentucky derby lets send them to the desert and run a 10K because we need a tougher thoroughbred."
> 
> And what kind of horse runs in the desert, Arabians. Amazingly fast over short distances but have stamina to spare for for the long haul. The only modern day horses that still compete at long distances other than the Arabians is the Appaloosa.They were primarily breed down from the wild mustangs, which were brought here by the Conqistadors and were what, wait for it, wait...... Mostly? Arabians.
> 
> So what you have is like most trends we tend to go back and forth from the middle to the edges of a topic and eventually end back on target again. *Lodgical evolution my friend!*
> 
> And now were talking about maybe being able to re-instate the distance racing back into our homers. But were really talking about Thoroughbreds


My point was as pigeon0446 stated and to say a pigeon is bred and raced in a more adverse environment and variable distances/terrain than a thoroughbred is made to run in, thus, one does not compare to the other. 

A simple racing pigeon that is so readily available and cheap, is far ahead of a thoroughbred in terms of evolution, in my opinion. 

If we want to talk about the relations between racing pigeons and thoroughbreds, the subject can be broaden to include race cars and the evolution of the engine and aerodynamics, and, how the automobile engine has evolved over periods of time to be more fuel efficient. All subject involving performance can be interchanged and the discussion would be the same. Where do you draw the line?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Revolution Lofts said:


> I was looking at my clubs proposed young bird race schedule for 2013. The longest race is 350 miles. I was thinking that after the race reason which ends at the end of September for ybs here, send every remaining young bird on a 600 mile toss in order to really test their homing ability. Now I don't know what good it'll do, but I'm sure some birds will perform better than others. Then when looking at the race results from this year, I can determine whether any young bird is worth bringing into the breeding loft.
> 
> 600 miles or 700/800. Haven't decided that yet.



* ? ? ? ? *

I don't really know how "fair" 600 miles would be for a bird that might be less the 12 months old. It's possible that conducting such a "test" could end up proving very little unless it is a competitive race event. In the back of my mind I am thinking at such extreme distance, truly exceptional high quality YB's could become lost, and then the fancier would be a fool. Or, under idea conditions and the wind is just blowing right, maybe even a very typical bird could make the flight. I don't know. I have sent every YB in my loft, with about two exceptions, to our 330 mile Marion, Va. release point, home of "The Race From Hell"....release point, became infamous due to a four day smash race. In order to return home, the birds must navigate through the Blue Ridge Mountains. I am thinking out loud here, that maybe another 70 or so miles down the road might be a test, but much further beyond that, I am thinking I rush home to see who was first, and a day or two later I might be thinking to myself, boy was that a dumb idea.  If I was to use say 500 miles, and release the birds in November or December and use that as criteria to become part of breeding colony, would I end up with a line of good homing pigeons, but much too slow for majority of YB races which are under six hours. 

And Xueoo, yes....my entry into the 2012 Winners Cup, "Red Horse 77" returned to the Mother Loft to sire a dark filly from Zus Max, and she looks to be a super star ! 

Fellow combine member is a horseman from Maryland. He knows not only how to breed a good horse, but some good pigeons as well. He is one of the top 3 or 4 fliers in a 130+ member combine. When he talks about bloodlines, and maternal lines, etc. where many might have their eyes glaze over, I listen very intently and carefully. Fairly easy and inexpensive to build a loft and win some local pigeon races with fellow club mates. Quite another to build a stable with dozens of brood mares, and actually breed a winning race horse. When I meet those who have actually done so, I pay attention. Especially when the evidence would suggest that a person skillful at breeding horses can transfer that skill to racing pigeons given enough time to adjust to the fact that a pigeon does not have four legs. Another very good flier just happens to be an expert breeder of Canaries. Now, can one really learn anything from a bird breeder if it's not homing pigeons ? I humbly suggest yes, it is skill that is transferable to different species. Well, that is my theory anyway, that is my story, and I am sticking with it. !


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## lawman

Xueoo said:


> My point was as pigeon0446 stated and to say a pigeon is bred and raced in a more adverse environment and variable distances/terrain than a thoroughbred is made to run in, thus, one does not compare to the other.
> 
> A simple racing pigeon that is so readily available and cheap, is far ahead of a thoroughbred in terms of evolution, in my opinion.
> 
> If we want to talk about the relations between racing pigeons and thoroughbreds, the subject can be broaden to include race cars and the evolution of the engine and aerodynamics, and, how the automobile engine has evolved over periods of time to be more fuel efficient. All subject involving performance can be interchanged and the discussion would be the same. Where do you draw the line?


*
You just don't get it do you, that or your just being to stubborn to realize what your saying.*

Xueoo I'll try to put this more bluntly so there is no misunderstanding. What Warren, some others and I have tried to say and you have blatantly ignored. 

Is quite simply look at the breeding concepts, study them because no one is going to hand deliver to you the secret recipe some things you’re going to have to do on your own. You're going to have to do this because your not willing to listen.

There are some things I could teach you and most certainly Warren could but your not willing to accept even basic concepts. We have tried to explain the basic concepts in prior posts, but you cannot get past how the two relate, how any thing that is bred from livestock (thats what your beloved racing homers are in most countries) from two different genus types. That being genus Equua caballus and genus Gerandia (horse and pigeon).

I personally don’t have the patience of Obi-wan, while you’re stumbling around like an arrogant Luke. Go back read through the different posts and just like I said pick up a book or better yet several books on breeding concepts. 

Two very good ones that concentrate on breeding racing pigeons, and are simply a good starting point are the “Art of Breeding” by the late Prof. A. Anker and Steven van Breeman or Steven van Breeman’s own book “Hints for Mating, Breeding and Selection”. The link to van Breeman’s website is in the prior posts. 

Then after you have read and study these maybe you will be ready to move on to other subjects that are just as relevant. Such as how the breeding techniques used when breeding race horse’s compares to the breeding of racing pigeons. 

*Get ahold of me after you have at least read the first two books and maybe then we can talk more about breeding concepts.*

*Lawman*


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## lawman

Revolution Lofts said:


> http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/whats-new/culling-unproductive-flyers-and-breeders-part2of2/
> 
> 
> Quote from article:
> 
> "BRIEF SUMMARY: CULL MEANS REGARDLESS OF BLOODLINES, STRAINS, COST OR ORIGIN, YOU MUST ELIMINATE ALL BIRDS FROM THE RACE TEAM OR BREEDING LOFT THAT ARE GIVING YOU BAD RESULTS AND PREVENTING YOU FROM IMPROVING.
> 
> Cull any birds that are not of superior health and any breeders that do not produce strong, healthy young. Cull any birds if they are hard to settle and manage. Cull any birds that do not loft fly and train easily. Cull any birds that cannot keep up with the rest of the team and appear to have no excuse for being late. Check your records, if this is a common problem with several birds from a particular pair, then they must go. Cull any pair in which you have heavy losses each year or poor homing ability. Cull any flyers that after 2 years have not finished consistently in the top 10% of their races. Cull any pair that has not produced good racers even though their young are not lost. Cull all birds that cannot handle the tough races, regardless of the distance. Cull all birds with poor recovery periods that cannot race over 50% of the race schedule.
> 
> As you cull and eliminate birds, you look to keep and breed from the best. Three or four pair of proven stock birds can take a fancier a long way in a race season and many through years to come."


This sounds like it originally came straight from OLD HAND himself?


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## conditionfreak

Is anyone familiar with an old strain known as Opels? They were from a man named Louis Opel.

I had them back in the seventies and they were awesome on very long distance. I have not seen or heard of them for many years. Except I did get a response from a spanish man in Florida several years ago, when I advertised looking for them. He said he would give me a few, but that they were crossed with other strains. I never heard from him after that though.

I know that any around now, would necessarily have to have been crossed along the way. But I would (just for nostalgia) like to get a couple.

I have tried Opels, Trentons, Sions and Jan Ardens for the long distance, and I preferred the Opels. Right now I only have Sions and Jan Ardens. I had a couple of red Trentons two years ago, but they were young and I flew them. I also lost them. But they were given to me by a guy who had not raced for a dozen years. He just kept pigeons.

I would also love to obtain a book titled: "The Opel birds; the genealogy and detailed performance of a family of racing pigeons that win, repeat and reproduce. By A. S. Johnstone." I can not find a copy anywhere on the net.


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## raftree3

Revolution Lofts said:


> To each their own, but I want to breed a homing pigeon that actually thinks and gets home on its own, not following birds 3/4ths of the way home with the rest of the flock.
> 
> I have different training styles than everyone else and that's due to a number of factors. I don't stick to one program that everyone else does. I'm planning on doing what works for me, so I'm not sticking to a particular "system". At the end of the day, we as pigeon fanciers are just coaches. Every coach has his/her own training style. Mine just happens to be similar to that of John Tortorella's of the NY Rangers.
> 
> As for the OB team, I'm only flying young birds for the next 5-6 years. If you go back to my original thread you'll read that it was only an idea


It'll be interesting to hear what you actually wind up doing. You keep the threads active with your dreams of "White Bird Releases", Huge lofts for those with special needs to be involved with, huge teams of YB's and OB's, Breeding lofts, One Loft race participation, extreme training , Birds with GPS back packs and the list goes on. Keep dreaming and good luck!!


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## Revolution Lofts

raftree3 said:


> It'll be interesting to hear what you actually wind up doing. You keep the threads active with your dreams of "White Bird Releases", Huge lofts for those with special needs to be involved with, huge teams of YB's and OB's, Breeding lofts, One Loft race participation, extreme training , Birds with GPS back packs and the list goes on. Keep dreaming and good luck!!



Thanks haha! Most of the stuff on my "To do list" is pretty achievable in my mind because I have already started on them and its looking pretty good so far.


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## Josepe

You can think back on all your accomplishments and hopefully enjoy some of them when your first Social Security checks start coming in.


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## conditionfreak

The cool difference between racing horses and racing pigeons, is that, when a pigeon breaks a leg. Once it heals, you can still race it and it will be just as good as it always was.

Another cool difference. Pigeon poop ain't nearly as big.

Still one more cool difference. You don't have to pay those jockeys to ride your pigeon to the finish line.

I wonder how fast a pigeon could actually race, if it was being whipped all the way home? Maybe, almost as fast as they go with a hawk on their tail.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

conditionfreak said:


> The cool difference between racing horses and racing pigeons, is that, when a pigeon breaks a leg. Once it heals, you can still race it and it will be just as good as it always was.
> 
> Another cool difference. Pigeon poop ain't nearly as big.
> 
> Still one more cool difference. You don't have to pay those jockeys to ride your pigeon to the finish line.
> 
> I wonder how fast a pigeon could actually race, if it was being whipped all the way home? Maybe, almost as fast as they go with a hawk on their tail.


Here is another cool difference, not a large demand for pigeon meat, but based on some recent news reports, many of us may have eaten a horse and didn't even know it. 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/14/world/europe/uk-horse-meat-probe


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## SpanishpouterTX

Anybody in tx likes spanish pouter pigeons?


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