# Help sick feral



## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Picked up a sick feral today,he was just aimlessly walking and pecking around and i picked him up quite easily.He pecked a little food on the way home in the car but his feathers are puffed up,even the ones on his face.His chest area seems hard,i'm not sure if its his crop or lower.He's done a few tiny poops but now hes just done a tiny pool of foamy green liquid,about the size of a penny.The poop smells like a chemically sour smell.His eyes are bright.He's had a little drink of warm sugary salt water.Help!I've got marbocyl and baytril in the house.I forgot to mention that sometimes he keeps his head still but his neck moves - a bit like someone hulahooping,not too fast but he just does this for a short while then stops


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, get him started on the Baytril. I don't recognize what "Marbocyl" is but I'll look into it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, Marbocyl is another fluoroquinolone like Enrofloxacin (Baytril) and so there's nothing to be gained giving them together. Therefore, you've in essence only got one drug to give. I don't suppose you've got anything for canker, do you?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Paula,

Maryco (who is always very observant) noriced that foamy poops happen when a pigeon is about to lay an egg. Can you describe the position of its tail?

There is another reason for foamy poops but I can't quite remeber what. I will do a bit of research.

I would be wary of starting it on Baytril without first having an idea of what sort of bacteria I was aiming to kill. Baytril is not effective against anaerobic bacteria and although it is a good antibiotic to use for e-coli or paratyphoid it isn't effective for gut infections.

I know that you get along with your vet, if you can't take the pigeon to see her , is it possible to have a telephone consultation with her, describe the symptoms and collect whatever antibiotics she recommends?

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Is the poop a bright green?


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Thinking about it the tail is pointing down a bit like when they do lay an egg.There isn't much pooh and it is quite green with a bit of black.I found her in front of the town hall and behind the town hall they are working and putting up scaffolding there was loads of lorries,men and activity,i wonder if they disturbed her off a nest.Its usually a quiet area with a pannier market which is behind shops and is closed to traffic most of the time.I won't start her on the baytril tonight i'll see if theres an egg in the morning and if not i'll take her off to the vets.I suppose shes better off now,in a cage in my bedroom-wonder if i'll be a granny in the morning!hope i am then at least i'll know shes alright.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good thinking...and don't forget the hottie!

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

No egg this morning and pidge is not looking well.Can't get him to the vet till 5.30 tonight.Made sure he took a bit of water,gave him a bit of poly aid and a few peas and beans.Did give him spartrix just incase its canker in his throat although i can't see anything.His poops are hardly anything .,like hes starving and the smell of him is unbelievable.Even if i pick him up my hands smell.Its not looking good.He is also shivering sometimes.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Can you telephone your vet and ask if there is anything you can give him based on those symptoms? 

At the moment the there is the possibility of dehydration, so make certain that he has plenty of water. And keep him on a direct heat source like a hot water bottle.

I am sorry that he can't see the vet sooner than 5:30 and I am tempted to say "try the Baytril in case it is e-coli or salmonellosis", but according to doctor Colin Walker that "stab in the dark diagnosis" can make the bird sicker, so where there is a vet available I prefer to wait for the vet's advice. Also, I have been down the route of treating a sick pigeon with whatever antibiotics I had to hand to cover what I considered all bases, and it didn't benefit them....the best I could do was assure myself that I had tried when they died.

You said that he doesn't look well, can you elaborate?

You mentioned yesterday that his poop had black in it. This can be an indication of bleeding at the upper end of the digestive tract caused by heavy metal poisoning, injury, infection or worms.

Is he still passing the black poops black?

Hexamitiasis is one of the conditions that causes malodorous poops.

Can you provide a photo?



Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

I've just given him some more polyaid,only about 3mls once it was made up.I did break up some peanuts into little pieces and he ate those himself but afterwards(He did this when i gave him some peas this morning) he sort of moves his neck around as if to try and get it comfortable.His poo was green in a bit of liqiud this morning but very tiny.When i just went up now after making him eat earlier it was black long strands but not much.He really has got this horrible smell.its as if his neck /crop is uncomfortable.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is the smell his breath or just anywhere around the bird?

Pidgey


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

its his poop and when i pick him up my hands smell so its like his whole body smells


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Try to get him to take more water, a little at a time. Normally he would drink about 20 ml a day.

If the throat and crop motions are canker then the spartrix will be dealing with that. The problem is that canker is often a secondary infection caused by the stress of another condition.

Can you post a photo of the poops? If you e-mail it to me I can reduce it to an appropriate size (the ones you sent yesterday were too large to upload on PT).

Is he standing or lying down?

Are his eyes open or closed?

Is he fluffed up?

Does his body feel warm?

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just another thought, Paula....can the pigeon fly?

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Hes standing up with feathers quite puffed up.His eyes are open and he feels warm.His body feels a bit skinny but his neck feels quite hard.When i found him yesterday he was just walking and couldn't fly cos i just got him into a doorway and picked him up and although he fluttered his wings not a lot happened.Hes just had a drink but only seems to bother if i offer it.He did preen himself a little bit cos i got polyaid over him and wiped him with a damp cloth.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Can you examine both his wings carefully, including the undeneath, to see if there are any bruises, lumps, punctures or feathers that have clumped together?

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

he really struggles when i try to look but i can't see anything wrong.Just got back from the vet and feel that it was a waste of time.It was a new foreign vet in surgery tonight and she felt him all over ,looked in his mouth and said "oh hes eating his crop is full" i explained that the crop area felt hard when i found him and that he kept moving his neck around and that he wasn't passing much poop and asked if there was any way there could be like a blockage in there.With that he did the tiniest poop and she said "oh well he is passing something".she then listened to his breathing and said oh look hes breathig with his mouth open but i think thats cos hes stressed-she must have had him hold really tightly for about 10 minutes -i would have been stressed as well.She said give him baytril,i always use tablets and give about 1 eighth of one.i told her 15mg for a 3kg cat was what i used-good job i checked,when i started to break them i noticed they were 50mg for a 10kg dog.Anyway is it possible that his crop could maybe have an undigested mass of food in there and if it has what can i dn the brighter side when he was in the car he couldn't have looked more lively and walked around a bit.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Paula,

Bear in mind that the mass could either be canker or it could be there because canker is causing a blockage at the crop exit, and continue to treat with Spartrix .

These are things that you can do to help an undigested mass pass though the system:


Give a few drops of liquid paraffin

Keep him warm with something warm to rest his crop on.

Feed him a bit of infant stewed apples.

You could massage the crop gently but if there is canker that could dislodge a nodule and cause a bleed.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If all he's doing is passing bile through the GI and has some kind of impacted mass in the crop, it's possible that you could give him medications that won't go through or be absorbed. If you're getting water through him at least, then that's not as big of a worry.

Pidgey


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

shop didn't have liquid paraffin but i've got baby puree of apple,pear and rice.96%fruit and the other 4% is ground rice,calcium carbonate and antioxidant ascorbic acid.Its for babies so will it be ok for him.ALso tomorrow i have to go to work so he will be by himself for 10 hours.I haven't seen him drink on his own so is it best if i take him in the car so i can give him something during the day?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Will you be able to keep him warm enough in the car? If so, yes, take him and keep an eye on him during the day.

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

i'll see what hes like in the morning.I'll make sure i take hot water bottles cos i can keep topping them up.


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Well took pidgie to work with me on wednesday.He seemed to relax all day on a hot water bottle but last night he didn't look too well and i was convinced i would wake up to dead pidgie.I gave him another spartrix on cynthias advice and I sent cynthia a video of his neck movements and she had never see anything like it before.Anyway this morning he was still ok but his poops were just clear liquid with a little bit of white in so i gave him some polyaid and a little egg food and left him here.When i got home i couldn't believe it,he was stood up looking quite lively.Then i noticed piles of vomit consisting of undigested peanuts and other stuff and also piles of lovely green poop.Hopefully hes out of the woods now (hope i haven't spoken too soon).When i feed the pigeons where i found him i do give them a lot of peanuts and some are quite large so i might chop them up now cos they really gorge them down fast.He's still moving his neck around so i'm wondering if anything else is going to come upbut his crop is soft now so i'llsee how he goes.I've never been sooooo happy to see such a mess!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

LOL! I so wanted to teleport to Plymouth to see what had come out. We feral pigeon rescuers can be weird! 

I hope that this is the turning point for him. Best keep him on the liquid diet (Poly Aid) for a couple of days or until you are certain that there are no more blockages.

Has he pooped any more? What were new poops like?

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

yes hes still POOPING!! Theyre a bit runny but they've got nice coloured thick bits in them.When i gave him polyaid tonight he really seemed to be swallowing and enjoying it.He was even struggling to get back in his cage.I only gave him about half the amount it said for a pigeon.It says only give twice a day but if i give him half the amount can i do it 4 times a day,its just i don't want to fill him up too much?Also do i leave the probiotics in the water all the time for the moment?By the way i didn't find anything exciting in the vomit-most disappointing!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am very happy to read your last two posts. Isn't it lovely when things improve?

We have, in the past, gotten in some pretty sick pigeons much like you described yours - hard crop, no poops to amount to anything and a foul smell; but, after giving them plenty of fluids they would vomit up beans - sometimes a lot. Most of these birds came from "our bridge" which is next to a restaurant and I think they would throw out dry beans for them to eat. Like you said, they gorge and then can't digest them, become impacted and they start fermenting in the crop. These beans would also swell but I don't know if peanuts do. Another thing we did was gently massage the crop to break up the "clumps" after we gave them fluids. 

I hate I didn't think of that when you first started posting but it has been quite a while since we got in any like that. I will say that over the years we were not able to save all of them. I don't know if their system was so compromised from not being able to digest the beans that they couldn't pull through.

We also gave them Nystatin to help them.


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Cynthia did advise this but as she said if it was canker in its crop it might have caused a bleed.Theres another pigeon in the area wich must have canker because it picks up peanuts and can't swallow them.I'vgot to try to catch that one.I'm really mad with the vet i went to see because i kept saying to her that i thought he had a blockage but as far as she was concerned his crop was hard so he was eating!I am going to mention it to the main vet when i go back up because i told her he wasn't eating or pooping and to me i think she should have realised.


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

pidge is a lot brighter today but i think he must have something still in his crop.When he takes a drink he holds his head right back after and all but sits down.Hes been having polyaid today and doing poops with bits of green ion them.He still moves his neck around and i gave his crop a massage and thought i felt a round thing in there.He wasn't too happy with me doing this.His crop is quite puffy and spongey as if there might be air in there.I'll probably take him vets in the morning as long as its the vet i need to see on duty.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hope he gets better. Let us know how the vet visit goes.

Reti


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Pidge has been a little sick this morning and brought up shards of hard sharp PLASTIC.Hes bright enough in himself but does not look very comfortable he keeps leaning right back.I tried to give him some little balls of egg food to see if it would bind to the plastic.I'm worried that it will pierce him because its really sharp.I could take him vets but i have phoned and its the foreign vet again and i really don't think she has a clue.The vet i want will be in on Monday.What so you think?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Paula

Poor Pidge I can't imagine how he picked up plastic. 

When I thought my dog had swallowed some shards of porcelain I was told to give him cotton wool to eat, so it would bind around the sharp bits, but I don't know how safe this would be for Pidge. Also there is the possibility that some has already passed out of the crop and is causing proventricular pain.

Hallswood use liquid paraffin on wood pigeons that have swallowed stones, so that could help. 

I would try telephoning the on line vet at this link first, they might think of something that we missed:

http://www.vet-medic.com/Content.aspx?PID=35

Ask whether it would be safe to try to empty the crop manually after giving something like egg food and liquid paraffin. THis is just me clutching at straws but you could also ask whether Vaseline can be given and the crop emptird manually. 

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Took pidge to the vet because it wasn't the vet i thoughtand when i tried to give him some eggfood he just sicked up again with more bits of plastic and even a long piece of like cotton.This time he brought all his polyaid up.At the vet He was sick when she felt his crop but she said it was puffy because the fluids were building up in there.He was so lively and friendly just walking round the table but to get to the point.She said he really needed to be admitted because the blue plastic was so hard there was no way he was going to grind that down.Hes going to have a general anaesthetic and shes going to flush his crop.I suggested keeping him for a few more days but as she said if the fluids are not even going down there is a definate blockage and if they give him the GA they can turn him upside down and get his throat straight to flush .i'm petrified ,don't think i can stand it if he dies.They're going to do it this morning,if he looked really ill it wouldn't be so bad but hes made such progress.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Paula,

Having any animal anaesthesised is dangerous, but in this case, because of the plastic, I think it is necessary even though getting rid of so much of his crop content has eased his discomfort.

Please let us know as soon as you have news of his progress.

BTW, do you keep in touch with Nicola3? The two of you could pool your knowledge about vets in the Plymouth area.

Cynthia


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Tried to get in touch with nicola3 several times about rabbit and woodie last year but shes not been active and i got no reply.Pity really cos her disabled woodie would have been good company for walter


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

Pidge is home but not looking good.His breathing is spluttery the vet said oh he didn't asphrate 9something like that )too much-i think she meant that some fluid went down the windpipe i'm not sure.Would the anaesthetic make him breath like this or is there fluid down there????No plastic flushed out of his crop so she thinks the blockage is further down which she says is too much of aN OPERATION AND THEY haven't got the equipment for it.Shes given me injections of baytril and also metoclopramide (which i've looked up and it says it stops them vomiting)i thought it would be better for him to keep vomiting but i think she thinks that that way something might clear down further.I'm totally fed up the poor pidge is breathing really badly with his mouth open but he is still stood up.She said just to give him water with probiotics and maybe some polyaid tomorrow afternoon.I'm starting another thread to see if anyone has experience of breathing after anaesthetic-if its made him worse i don;t want him to suffer!!


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## solly (Jul 18, 2005)

i am putting any new info under a new thread i started about the general anaesthetic.its titled urgent question-general anaesthetic.Thanks for all your help,paula


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