# Losses



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Has other parts of the country had big losses this year? The clubs around here have had huge losses and it is across the board.


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

Losses have been aweful in our club and combine. Were losing 6-7 birds a week. 
Tom


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OMG!! Don't tell me that!!!! We have our first race this week end..........


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2007)

hey Renee saw one of your birds for sale on the slobberknocker lofts auction page  sorry for going off this topic but it was just cool seeing one of your birds out there  
http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/.../auction.pl?category=Pigeons1&item=1189024656


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LokotaLoft said:


> hey Renee saw one of your birds for sale on the slobberknocker lofts auction page  sorry for going off this topic but it was just cool seeing one of your birds out there
> http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/.../auction.pl?category=Pigeons1&item=1189024656


Well, how about that? I wrote this big long post about this bird and it being sold, but then had to delete it cause I didn't pay attention to the auction. The guy selling this bird is a good friend of ours. At first, I thought it was SLOBBERKNOCKER selling the bird and I was confused about how he got the bird, but now I see that Paul is just using SLobber's web site to list the bird. 
We raised this bird for Paul in 2005 to use as a breeder. I don't know what it actually raised for him, but we've long ago gave the parents of this bird away to another guy here in VA as he just wanted birds to fly around the house and not race. If you're interested in seeing the pedigree on this bird, I'll be glad to send it to you. Honestly, we never had any of these birds fly good for us, but I never used any of them as breeders, so who knows?? 
Paul is an up and up good guy, so he can be trusted. I'd vouch for him anytime.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

We have been racing YB's for a month and some guys are sending 10 birds and getting one. The losses are crazy and it is everyone around here.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

First I believe that there 4 main reasons for young bird losses. Poor birds, poorly trained birds, sick birds,and hot weather. Flying young birds in the month of August which is one of the hotter months is just plain insane! Sick birds and hot weather will take its toll,add to this poor birds that are pooly trained the result is high losses. We in Southern Caifornia are lucky in that we can wait until late Sept. or early Oct. to fly young birds so our birds are a little older and well thru the molt. GEORGE


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

George,
I guess our methods just plain suck and our remaining racers and breeders should be culled and all of us here in upstate NY need to take a serious look at raising hermit crabs instead of pigeons. I think your right that those are 4 good reasons but come on man. There's some top notch flyers that are down to a hand full of birds after two races. My feed dealer called from Rochester last night to see if we could help him with 1350 lbs of feed that he's short. His homer guys are in the same boat. They don't need feed when they only have 12 birds left on the team. It's not 1950 anymore The cause might NOT be lazy fanciers with poor birds, poor health in the loft and bad training habits. Is it possible there's something else at work here?
98% of the flyers in our neck of the woods fly natural so I'm with you on the molt being an issue. Thats why i switched to the dark system!! I handle some natural YB's on shipping night that have no business being in a race. On the other hand I've personally countermarked birds in the last few weeks that were in tip top shape and they have'nt been seen since. These birds were from the loft of our multi year combine champ. This guy know his stuff and he's losing about 50% of his entry for two weeks in a row??? He does'nt basket them if they're not ready to go. I'm sorry but I'm not buying that Dale is a crappy fancier with poor birds.
Tom


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

One way to find out what is happening to these birds is using a tracking device on them.

Not practical? We should have the technology to make a device small but effective...too expensive? Most likely...

Just a thought...

Shi


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## Barn Pigeon (Feb 11, 2005)

I can believe about the losses. I train one day and they come home in group. Train the next day and it takes them all day and then some come in the next day. This just doesn't make no sense at all. If I was getting hit with others training their birds it looks like I would pick up a stray or two. But this isn't happening. Had 12 still out from yesterday. Started with 91 after hawks ran off 18. I started training 71. Now I have less then 60. Did get two back from people calling club sec. Renee , I got my fingers crossed .


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Barn Pigeon said:


> I can believe about the losses. I train one day and they come home in group. Train the next day and it takes them all day and then some come in the next day. This just doesn't make no sense at all. If I was getting hit with others training their birds it looks like I would pick up a stray or two. But this isn't happening. Had 12 still out from yesterday. Started with 91 after hawks ran off 18. I started training 71. Now I have less then 60. Did get two back from people calling club sec. *Renee , I got my fingers crossed* .


I've got EVERYTHING crossed!!!


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## LuisO (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm acutally thanking God that I'm reading this right now. I sent 19 out to my first race and lost 10! They have been straggling back little by little, one by one, since the first race which was 2 weeks ago. One came home yesterday in amazing condition and another the other day skinny as can be. I don't even think I want to send any more birds and we have only had 2 races so far.

Good Luck Everyone,

Luis

P.S. Verison just installed ANOTHER telephone tower near us!!!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Hope everyone comes home safely.  I'm so glad I have pigeons who don't have free-flight; I don't think I could handle the heartache and worry!!!  Good luck to everyone and their birds out there.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Just a random thought since I only have pigeons / don't race them...

I'm wondering if any long term clubs out there could go through past (historical) records and see if there is any correlation between race routes of yesteryear and those today and see if "urban spral" along race routes could be an issue?

I guess what I'm saying (asking) is does anyone think that its possible that changing conditions along race routes could be a factor?

I'll admit that my theory could be weak, as I don't have any race experience, I'm "guessing" that two things would have to be true to support my "theory". 1) Losses within clubs in years past were generally lower and 2) race routes haven't changed much.

Anyway... what do y'all think?

.....

Also, while it may be beyond the means of most all fanciers / racers out there, as someone up-thread said, technology is there to support putting tracking devices on racing pigeons. Possibly the right person in the right spot could get some of that government money for scientific research and put tracking devices on several racing pigeons to find out what's happening to them. It would be interesting.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

LuisO said:


> P.S. Verison just installed ANOTHER telephone tower near us!!!


So, do you think that the cell towers have caused problems w/pigeon navigation? If so, everybody's in a world of hurt because they are everywhere and more coming in all the time. 

Good luck. If it makes you feel any better we are getting a lot of young birds turned in on 911 that we're hoping to help get home.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I read an article recently that pigeons may use ultralow soundwaves to help navigate.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm the one who mentioned the tracking devices, ZZM. There was a video one time showing a tiny camera on predators to show their abilities. I would assume that a tracking device would be even smaller, lighter and easier to use on pigeons - without affecting their racing abilities.

Ideally, a camera WITH a tracking device...the owners could track their birds and "see" what they go through...

I, too, am curious about changes such as you have mentioned. Seems that so many losses have to be due to factors OTHER than predators! After all, these birds are BRED to home...

Sure hope some answers can be found! I know all of the members "hurt" with the racers whose birds are lost! 

Shi


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## LuisO (Nov 14, 2005)

Flitsnowzoom,

Will 911 be posting a listing of any of these birds band #s? or is there any way I can find out? I have lost a few.

Thanks,

Luis


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

Hey Zig Zag. 
Our club used to fly west and losses were slim to none. I think i lost one bird in an entire season the last time we flew west. Our combine flies south and the problem we have is that 3/4's of the clubs in the combine are in a position that favors a south course so we're outta luck until membership drops so low that they are forced to do whats right for the good of the sport instead of what keeps them on the top of the sheets.
Tom


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LuisO said:


> Flitsnowzoom,
> 
> Will 911 be posting a listing of any of these birds band #s? or is there any way I can find out? I have lost a few.
> 
> ...


LuisO...........probably the easiest way to do this is for you to post the bands of the bird you've lost. Don't have to post the whole band. Just the club letters. Are these young birds? We can plug the club letters into the database and any bird with those letters that have been turned into us will pop up.........I'll be on line for a while.......you can post here or send me a PM


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

That's a GREAT idea, Renee!!

Maybe our other members will do the same! 

Shi
Squeaks (mmm, maybe NOT racing is NOT so bad right now! I'll just keep ground running, thanks!)


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> LuisO...........probably the easiest way to do this is for you to post the bands of the bird you've lost. Don't have to post the whole band. Just the club letters. Are these young birds? We can plug the club letters into the database and any bird with those letters that have been turned into us will pop up.........I'll be on line for a while.......you can post here or send me a PM


Having said that.........our procedure when a lost banded racing pigeon is turned in to us:

The finder of the bird is given the contact/club secretary's name and number. They TRY to get in touch with this person, get the actual owners name and number and call them. IF they get in touch with the owner, they are then advised what to do with the bird...ie...turn it loose OR "I'll come get it".....so, if you are part of a club and purchased bands through them, you should get a call if any of your birds are found.
If you purchased your bands from one of the pigeon supply companies, they SHOULD have you on record as buying a particular band and the finder is given YOUR name and number and will contact you.
Sounds like a pretty simple process huh??? You'd be VERY surprised........at how "not simple" it is some times.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I don't know what it is but it is something. The route in our club has not changed in 30 years and the flying is almost all rural flying. I promise you it is not all from the 4 things george posted. Some might be but it is too wide spread and my club has some serious flyers in it.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

mr squeaks said:


> That's a GREAT idea, Renee!!
> 
> Maybe our other members will do the same!
> 
> ...


Squeaks.........you are one smart cookie...........ummmm.......birdie.....


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

windyflat said:


> George,
> I guess our methods just plain suck and our remaining racers and breeders should be culled and all of us here in upstate NY need to take a serious look at raising hermit crabs instead of pigeons. There's some top notch flyers that are down to a hand full of birds after two races. It's not 1950 anymore The cause might NOT be lazy fanciers with poor birds, poor health in the loft and bad training habits. Is it possible there's something else at work here?
> 98% of the flyers in our neck of the woods fly natural so I'm with you on the molt being an issue. Thats why i switched to the dark system!! I handle some natural YB's on shipping night that have no business being in a race. On the other hand I've personally countermarked birds in the last few weeks that were in tip top shape and they have'nt been seen since. These birds were from the loft of our multi year combine champ. This guy know his stuff and he's losing about 50% of his entry for two weeks in a row??? He does'nt basket them if they're not ready to go. I'm sorry but I'm not buying that Dale is a crappy fancier with poor birds.
> Tom


 Hi TOM, I am not saying that all the fanciers in your area are crappy.What I did was point out areas that lead to losses. So if one is a good fancier with good birds then one must look at sickness and hot weather.We out here MUST treat for Pigeon Malaria (PSEUDOMALARIA) Those that do not treat for this will have late birds and losses on race day.Birds that are mildy infected show no signs of abnormalities. They appear so well as to occasionally lead the fancier to believe they are in top form. Most of the signs of good form there, feathering is is smooth,muscules feel full and supple,and good birds are sent to the race they fail to preform. On hard races infected birds lag behind and some fail to return. Pigeon malaria is a more important factor in pigeon racing then what is generally realised. .GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

LuisO said:


> Flitsnowzoom,
> 
> Will 911 be posting a listing of any of these birds band #s? or is there any way I can find out? I have lost a few.
> 
> ...


 Hi Luis, It might be easier if you give 911 alist of your lost birds so that they can inform you if they get one. .GEORGE


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Weather, hawks. radar. sun/solar flares, And other birds from different clubs crossing the flight path . Many things can cause problems. Then poor feathered birds. nonconditioned birds. As if the heat is a facter was the birds trained in the mid day heat or early mornings. Birds have to be trained to fly well in the heat. Yes for several years now the whole world has seen large numbers getting lost. I think of K days or radar as since 9 11 increased survallinece has been happening. Is this a part who knows. Check the clubs old bird races compare to young birds if numbers are near a problem is there if not look at the weather. and the birds feather condition.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Haarp*

Well I may as well bring this HAARP thing out for you all to take a look at. Go to GOOGLE and goole Haarp and see what the goverment is screwing around with now. They are bouncing sound waves off the ionophere.There are people that believe that this is an attempt to control weather. So google HAARP and see what you think. .GEORGE


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

*PseudoMalaria*



george simon said:


> Hi TOM, I am not saying that all the fanciers in your area are crappy.What I did was point out areas that lead to losses. So if one is a good fancier with good birds then one must look at sickness and hot weather.We out here MUST treat for Pigeon Malaria (PSEUDOMALARIA) Those that do not treat for this will have late birds and losses on race day.Birds that are mildy infected show no signs of abnormalities. They appear so well as to occasionally lead the fancier to believe they are in top form. Most of the signs of good form there, feathering is is smooth,muscules feel full and supple,and good birds are sent to the race they fail to preform. On hard races infected birds lag behind and some fail to return. Pigeon malaria is a more important factor in pigeon racing then what is generally realised. .GEORGE



Hi George,

How do you treat your birds with (possible) pseudomalaria? I did some googling about the desease and here's another topic I found that maybe of interest: 

http://www.epah.net/birds/Haemoproteus.html


Antimalarials

Many fanciers swear by the use of antimalarial drugs, purportedly because they increase the pigeons' performance. When these drugs are used, they should be administered to the pigeons in an effort to prevent Haemoproteus infections, not to treat existing infections. If infected pigeons are treated, the parasites will re-infect the red blood cells when medication is discontinued. There is no cure once the pigeons are infected. Additionally, when chloroquine, primaquine or quinacrine are used as preventatives, even at low dosages, side effects may occur. The most common side effects include liver toxicity and gastrointestinal, cardiac and neurologic reactions. Therefore we advocate the use of insecticide powders before and after races and shows as the best management practice to prevent infestation by pigeon flies and thus infection by Haemoproteus. 

So we come back to the question, "does Haemoproteus slow your pigeons down?" In general, the answer is no.4 However, if pigeons are concurrently infected with other diseases, or are housed under sub-optimal conditions and subjected to inappropriate husbandry practices, it may seem that "pigeon malaria" is the cause for poor performance.


kalapati


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Dr. David Marx*

Hi KALAPATI, The treatment is 10 days on then 20 days off,then back on10 days. After that you give a weekly dose once a week during the race season. When the race season is over you can either continue the once aweek treatment or stop it until about 40 days before the races start. Yes you should use insecticides to keep the pigeon fly at bay,and any other insects that just good management this is what many that fly in Southern California do. There two books by veterrinarians,"A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health" by Dr David Marx DVM. The second book is "Fit to Win by Dr.Wim Peters DVM.Both of these books cover the subject quite well. Both of these men also race pigeons and are well respected by those that have had contact with them. .GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*An alternative viewpoint on YB losses.....*

As an alternative viewpoint in order to facilitate discussion which may offer solutions to this complex problem of YB losses. Please allow me to suggest that among the various theories offered to explain what appears to be extraordinary losses could be "Handler Error". 

First of all let us recognize that large YB losses is not a new phenomenal. In the early 1960's there were certainly YB losses and explanations offered at that time were also very diverse and included such things as the US space program, sun spots, and color TV. Looking back such explanations now seem a bit ridiculous. But such explanations were welcomed because at the time, fanciers with 50 years of homing pigeon experience could not believe that their birds or management systems could possibly be to blame. Such is the case today.

I myself have suffered YB losses this year, but my approach has not been to blame such losses on things in which I have no control over. Instead I have assumed responsibility for my own errors in judgement, and have adjusted my management systems accordingly. While many fanciers choose to place blame on some factors beyond their control, there are those who succeeded in getting their birds home in decent time and in some cases, many birds "On the drop". 

My thinking is that pigeons and their family lines which may have been successful in decades past, and the management which worked in the past, just may not work in today's environment. I believe that better selection methodology and better management systems are needed if we are to face the ever changing environmental conditions. 

Unfortunately, today's challenges just may doing the job of selection, which fanciers are either unwilling or unable to make. In which case, nothing much has changed in the forty years I have been exposed to racing pigeons. People with a year of experience, repeating their mistakes over and over again, year after year.....sometimes for decades, and expecting different results. While at the same time attributing their lack of success to microwave ovens, color TV....or now those new fangled cell towers. The thought that their skills at breeding or management systems could be responsible has never occurred to them. 

Again I offer these ideas not as a "Know It All Expert", as every year is a learning experience for me, but to suggest that just maybe.... today's environment just may require that we design and breed a new generation of racer, and we may need to adopt new management protocols to deal with today's challenges, rather then look for scapegoats for what may be our failures as breeders and handlers.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> As an alternative viewpoint in order to facilitate discussion which may offer solutions to this complex problem of YB losses. Please allow me to suggest that among the various theories offered to explain what appears to be extraordinary losses could be "Handler Error".
> 
> First of all let us recognize that large YB losses is not a new phenomenal. In the early 1960's there were certainly YB losses and explanations offered at that time were also very diverse and included such things as the US space program, sun spots, and color TV. Looking back such explanations now seem a bit ridiculous. But such explanations were welcomed because at the time, fanciers with 50 years of homing pigeon experience could not believe that their birds or management systems could possibly be to blame. Such is the case today.
> 
> ...


I'm tired so I'll make this short and sweet. I'm sure that SOME losses are the fault of the fancier. But with the losses that are reported in the years that I've been racing pigeons (granted, it ain't been THAT long), there just can't be that many bad fanciers/handlers in the world. JMO...........
Having said that..........don't know what the answer is..........


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

I believe that we are having large loss due to the fact that we now live in a antibiotic society in which most believe that they need to use antibiotics to keep the sick and weak alive.Years ago 40,50, 100 some hard choices had to be made. Back in those days most racing people raised less birds,today many raise large young bird teams and try to keep them healthy by the use of antibiotics.Today when birds return from a race many will put their birds on a 2 day antibiotic treatment. Which they call preventative the simple fact is antibiotic are use to cure and must be given for the correct amount of time. Another thing years ago there were shipping limits like 15 yb per loft and 10 old birds.This made the fancier ship birds that were in the best form,where as today many combines have no shipping limits so this leads to the shipping of birds that are not in the best of form....GEORGE


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*a little bit of news a finder passed on to me today*

We had a young bird reported today on 911 that had gotten its feet caught in discarded bailing twine, wire. When the owner came to retrieve this bird, he told the finder that of 10 birds that he sent out 3 weeks ago, a total of 3, counting this one, returned. He was grateful to have that bird returned.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> I'm tired so I'll make this short and sweet. I'm sure that SOME losses are the fault of the fancier. But with the losses that are reported in the years that I've been racing pigeons (granted, it ain't been THAT long), there just can't be that many bad fanciers/handlers in the world. JMO...........
> Having said that..........don't know what the answer is..........



I won't pretend to have all the answers...since I don't even know all the questions...........I don't want to lay blame for everying on "Poor Handling", as that would not take into consideration things like weather or hawks etc. The other point I had was the genetic composition of the lost birds may not be up to the task. If factors in the enviroment such as solar flares, polution, cell phone signals, etc. are having a negative impact in our birds homing ability, then perhaps through selection we can have a positive impact.

But as a general rule, myself included, we like to take the credit when a bird wins, but when they lose....our human nature tends to want to blame this shortfall onto something else. I often see birds in the shipping crate on shipping day, that I know will never make it home because of their condition. The owners of these birds will often complain when we knock off the clocks that other flocks of race birds are messing them up etc. 

This is not an easy sport, I am sure if the Lord grants me many more years on this earth, that I will never even scratch the surface in terms of mastering this sport or uncovering all the great mysteries associated with this wonderful bird. But in the mean time I am going to attempt to look at failures on race day as primarily my mismanagement and handling. As far as I know, the perfect manager or handler does not exsist. So the challenge from my viewpoint is building with mother nature the perfect racing machine and then competing the best way I can, with my inperfect management. My thoughts are that this mindset will accomblish more success then assuming that my "Great" management and my "Great" pigeons could not possibly be at fault............well that's my two cents on the topic.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> As an alternative viewpoint in order to facilitate discussion which may offer solutions to this complex problem of YB losses. Please allow me to suggest that among the various theories offered to explain what appears to be extraordinary losses could be "Handler Error".
> 
> First of all let us recognize that large YB losses is not a new phenomenal. In the early 1960's there were certainly YB losses and explanations offered at that time were also very diverse and included such things as the US space program, sun spots, and color TV. Looking back such explanations now seem a bit ridiculous. But such explanations were welcomed because at the time, fanciers with 50 years of homing pigeon experience could not believe that their birds or management systems could possibly be to blame. Such is the case today.
> 
> ...


True to a point. Yes perhaps in todays worl some methods need changed. Remember the old rule and much has been wrote about it. OVERCROWDED birds you find a fly away. As if the birds are not happy with there loft. But often this happened in loft flying the birds. Now days The hawk has made a strong comeback. NOT seen in the past. And they scatter birds. the birds panic young birds probably more so to panic. In a race they may fly away off course. ANd the birds you may have lost over the season get lost all at one time. Remember the concept that the good birds make it home the others get lost. By breeding larger numbers of young birds sending those larger numbers to the races expect more lost birds. Now sure by race season if the birds have been trained well the weaker birds have not come home That is why I said in my first post, look at your old bird races how did the old birds do as for how many were lost. IF they were lost as well then it may be you training or it maybe something new. AND YES that does mean the birds will have to rebred to deal with what is out there. HAWKS that means more evasive birds make it home. The more the birds fly with the hawks the smarter they get. PANIC could just be an answer youngbird panic. I can remember years ago. the late 1970s a club had been getting alot of lost birds. TRUNS out dove hunters had for a few years been hunting at a dry creek bed and when the race birds flew over they shot as many as they could cut the bands off and did this several years until not knowing told a person that was in the race club and let him go hunting with them They were caught then. And it stopped.But worlds wide over the past few years lost birds has increased. The old days SAID radar effected birds flight somehow I do believe we have a problem BUT you may be right it might just take building the better bird to deal with the new age. AND maybe something as breeding less youngbirds, from better breeding pairs.


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