# Help, lower beak fell off



## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

Hi, After medicating baby this afternoon it started to shake it's head and the lower mandible fell off. It was only being held on by a tiny piece of tissue which I snipped off. I don't faint, thank goodness but my stomach did flips. Anyway now we have this baby, who doesn't seem to be in pain and doesn't seem to be distressed with no lower beak. I have to leave for work soon and I have 2 digital cameras here. One is on the fritz and the other doesn't take great pictures so I'll post what I have and try when I have more time. I did speak (on the telephone) to pidgy. He gave me some hope. I asked that he get with yall tonight and I'll chek in when I get back from work in the morning. I get home about 6:30. I knew this baby would lose some of the beak but I was hoping not all of it. Marie


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Marie,

I have pm'd you th e-mail address of one of our members (Les aka A Wing and a Prayer) because he has recent experience of raising a squeaker that lost her lower beak. Cho-Cho Chan unfortunately died after inhaling a seed, but Les learnt a lot about beaks and beak loss and will be very pleased to advise. He doesn't often visit this forum.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, glad you are here. I was thinking about the birds in Manchester
whose beaks were cut off and the issue I believe of the tongue drying up
was raised as great concern. Could you address this issue? I renember
how horrific that was and that many of the birds were euthanized. Is
this because there wasn't a full upper to work with?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Marie,

When you have the time, you might want to also send a photo of the update
to Dr. Weiss and see if he is able to make a prothesis or whatever his input
might be.

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Marie,

I have been following along on this little guy, as I also am looking after a little one who had a bad case of canker who did end up losing part of his lower beak, but nothing near this bad.

This is kind of new territory for me as well, but at one time in anticipation that mine might also lose most of his lower beak I bought some ophthalmic eye lubricant, with the idea in mind to keep the mouth area moist and not let it dry out until I could get things figured out. I purchased something very similar to this, with like ingredients, as I knew similar ingreients are used in and around the mouth in humans and thought that if they are recommending it to be placed into the eye, a little painted in his mouth area with a soft brush should help my little guy:

http://tinyurl.com/2tfecq

I hope this helps a bit, and I am praying for the best for him,
Ron


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Marie,
> 
> When you have the time, you might want to also send a photo of the update
> to Dr. Weiss and see if he is able to make a prothesis or whatever his input
> ...


I was wondering about that myself.
Have you ever heard of a beak prothesis? 
The bird looks so alert and Marie tells me it is a very happy one.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, they do fabricate a custom beak prothesis. I do think
there is no way the bird isn't in pain, though. There's no
way to have that kind of tissue damage and not be in
pain. We also are only seeing the tip of the Trichomoniasis
'iceburg' there, and when it opens up the tissue that way it
gets into the bloodstream and carried to organs where the 
destruction continues.This is something we can't guage 
but looking into creating a prothesis is doable. I feel horrible
for the little guy and every time I look at those haunting 
pictures of his eyes looking at you w/his beak
in that condition it just hurts like the devil to look at them.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, as I said early on, that's pretty much what I expected to happen. That bird that NumberNine had (BrokenBeak) looked about like this although its beak sorta' crumbled off in pieces until it was just a leathery pouch between what was left of the two main spars of the mandible on either side. That bird learned to eat of out of a deep dish and NumberNine kept her as an unreleasable. 

On this one, the damage was done pretty much before we ever saw it, it just hadn't gotten to the point of letting go yet. There's more healing to go before a pouch develops but it'll eventually happen in a couple of weeks or so.

As for beak prosthetics, the problem would be one of securing two rods into the lower jaw joints because that's about the only place where the bone is thick enough to do that and it would take some pretty tiny screws (think of the little ones holding watch parts together but with a wood screw-like thread). All that would need to be at least stainless steel which sometimes causes granuloma formation in pigeons when left long term. Titanium would be better. I tend not to think it's a practical solution, especially knowing that other birds have made it with a similar problem and done okay as is.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It may be worthwhile to contact Dr. Weir and get a price and see if
we can get a fund going. There's still the issue of the tongue drying
out that is a concern.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Probably oughta' get Marie to look in there and see what's left. I don't think BrokenBeak had a tongue anymore. I think she indicated that she works a 12-ish hour shift and that she'd be there tonight so it won't be until morning before she can get back on here. Something like that.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Situations of having lost both the upper and lower 'Beak' are possibly easier, in that the Pigeon can learn to effectively 'peck' and self feed and drink, but of course preening is a problem, as is 'pecking' in self defence.


Possibly a prosthesis could be made for this one's particulars, but how it would be attatched to my mind remains a challenge I do not know how to solve.


At any rate, 'Seed Pops' or 'the tube' would seem pracitcal for feeding him, and I hope some resolve prosthetic-wise may be achieved..!


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

Okay, this is killing me. I thought about this little guy all night at work. I wrote down phone numbers before I left to call some of you and forgot them Duh! I just fed the baby and tried to get a look at it's mouth. There is still some , not much, cheesy bright yellow stuff in the lower mouth. The bottom has started to curl upward forming a pouch but the sides are still kind of leaning outward. I'm sorry I'm have a hard time describing this. I am just sick about it. Anyway, I need to know if I should change anything with the meds are continue the same way I was administering them. Some one sent me an email address of some who had something to do with pigeons with beaks cut off. I will try and reach this person. Again let me say I don't mind caring for this little one but I have to tell you I'm so afraid of hurting him. As soon as I got in this morning he was begging to be fed, (peeping and honking) so precious, but when I had to put that feeding tube in there I hated it. I don't have a rubber one but I'm going to try and get one. Good suggestion about the moisturizer. Should I try and trim the upper beak? I know it will bleed. That scares me but I have Styptic pet swabs. Marie


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

I will be going to bed soon. When I wake up, I'll make some calls. I'm going to try and get a couple of pictures. I just tried to get some pictures and I have to say if this baby is in a lot of pain he's fooling me. I had to laugh at him. He was so happy to be out of his cage I couldn't get him to stand still. He was pecking at everything, and checking everything out. Very curious little guy. I don't know, he just doesn't seem to be to bothered by his condition. Not as much as us anyway. Ha! You can see his tongue in the pictures. To bed now. Marie


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi fp, 

The Manchester pigeons were different because they had both the upper and lower beak cut off, so the tongue dried out. To be honest I would like to have had a chance to try to give them a good life by tube feeding.

Les' Cho Cho Chan learnt how to feed herself, she needed help with preening but her mate, Rupert, helped there. There are also pigeons with upper or lower beak missing that have survived in the wild because people put out deep dishes of food for them.

This is a photo of Cho Cho:


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is a link to John's thread about his feral friend that was missing the lower beak. It has photos of the pigeon. It is amazing how adaptable pidgies are! Larry Cologne's experiences with Splitbeak are in the same thread.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14366&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Marie,

The tongue may well dry up in a bit from exposure to air,time will tell. 
I wouldn't trim the upper, your correct that it will bleed and he's going 
through enough right now. There may be something that a vet may suggest, 
I sure would let this be handled by a vet if anything beyond normal beak care. 
Normal beak care right now is really off the table, because of the youngster's
present condition,

The younster does feel pain but it is in their nature to not show pain
as part of their defense mechanism, they hide pain. There was an interesting
topic and link posted here some time back on the nature of how predators 
and prey express pain and this article from a very reputable source stated
that predators show pain but prey don't show pain. This would be just part
of their set of survival skills in the wild. And if your thinking about a human
right now that really shows it when they have a backache or headache,
yes, mankind and its best friend the dog, are concidered predators.

The portion of the Trichomoniasis infection/invasion that we saw was
for sure not the only area that this bird is contending with right now.
The damage we see (that is viewable on the surface) is frequently the tip 
of the iceburg in severe cases such as this, and I don't think that stopping
one more week of Metronidazole would be indicated. The damage to the
beak was adready done in the first picture, and it was already doubtful
that the beak would survive from the start.

There is nothing that you did wrong in your care for the bird, it is just
a horrific case of canker and you are doing a great job caring for this 
bird. The stainless steel tube w/a ball on the end is actually very good
w/canker birds and something used by more experienced rehabbers 
as the gold standard. I can tell you after taking over for Colette, it is
very likely the the edges of the rubber tubing where if was 
cut off probably scraped the bird's esophagus every time it 
was inserted causing this poor bird much suffering.

A light application of food grade vitamin e would also be good as 
something to help w/the healing process process and moisturizing tissue. 

This bird will need to be in someone's care as a pet for the rest of his/her life
and will never be able to live in an aviary or loft except in situation where 
protected in a cage inside of the loft or aviary. Something to 
think about while facts are gathered about possible ways to help this bird w/a prothesis.

Again, if this is reasonably possible there has been discussion about helping
you with this. Bless you for all of the hard work you are doing for the 
bird while working your twelve hour shifts, Marie. I know this has 
to be ever present on your mind.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, are you saying that ChoCho Chan still has a viable tongue
under that upper beak? That would be very promising.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi fp, 

I am not certain what her tongue situation was, but she was living the life of a normal (but much loved) pidgie and she and her mate Rupert were coming to live in my aviary when she died. We had no doubts that she would be suited to aviary life. Les wanted her to be with other pigeons even after death so she is buried in my garden. 

I will ask Les about the tongue but I think with pigeons we should never underestimate their ability to adapt with a little bit of help. My pigeon Toffee arrived here with a horizontal split across his lower beak and part of it missing. The split affected the part of the beak that helps them guide food down and the tongue was stunted and distorted. My vet will never recommend euthanasia if there can be quality of life but this was the first recommendation for Toffee because the prospects were not good.

It took a bit of time and gavaging but Toffee learnt how to feed himself, hold his place among the cocks and then courted and won Baby, which would have required some transfer of food and preening.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Probably, the bulk of the pain was earlier while there were still vital nerves in the beak to sense it. They died and sealed off days before the actual beak fell off. If a prosthesis were to be installed, it'd need to wait until all the tissue reorganization and scarring is completed so that something can be attached but, given the stories of Cho Cho and the others, I'm not sure it'd be worth the effort.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's funny--there were other posts from Cynthia just a couple of minutes ago that had pictures of Cho Cho that looked almost identical to this little fellow and now they're gone...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> That's funny--there were other posts from Cynthia just a couple of minutes ago that had pictures of Cho Cho that looked almost identical to this little fellow and now they're gone...


No, the photo is still there, post 14.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I found it on the first page of the thread... duh!

Pidgey


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

HI, This first. Here is Dr. Weir's response.

If the bird is not responding to all of those drugs he may not have canker - other things can cause similar lesions like pox, herpes virus, and underlying circo virus. Someone needs to examine the bird and look at the lesion under the microscope if you are going to figure this out. Steve.

I just got off the phone with fp and a friend will take the bird. I'm going to try and get a little more weight on it before it leaves. I'm in a rush to get to work, will try a proper update tomorrow with Pictures. Marie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*Today's Update*

I contacted a couple of Rehabbers & Dr. Brain Speer, all in email. I had an email back from Dr. Speer this a.m., which ain’t too shabby because I sent it to his office this a.m. One thing his response will do is put to rest any further search regarding a prothesis in this instance & perhaps for others that may come across similar problems with a pigeon or any other bird this size or larger. He thought that prosthesis wasn’t practical on a bird as large as a pigeon as it would fall off in time. He said they can learn to eat w/their disability and with time and support, most do. I believe this is a specific discussion regarding the loss of the lower Mandible and wouldn’t assume beyond this. But this is what we needed to know for certain. Now I feel quite certain that if one approached Dr. Speer and insisted, he would fashion one and attach it. What he was saying was that it wasn’t worth that time, effort and money, as they know from experience that the bird will adapt and the prosthesis will not remain attached.

One of the rehabbers I contacted is willing to adopt the youngster, though this would mean that the bird would need to hop a plane for Northern California. Marie and I talked this afternoon and the current plan is to fatten
the little one up a bit to get ready for the shipping and then ship it out here. We’ll need to get a box over to Marie for the bird anyway, so this will give some ‘grazing’ time for the bird. If anyone does have a shipping box they can
donate to Marie, that would be great. In the meantime, that’s the news that’s fit to print folks, seems like alls well that ends well and that Marie’s little buddy is about to have big plane ride and some new digs, lol.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great update, FP! I have a used two bird box if that would help .. otherwise, I'll gladly buy and ship a brand new shipping box to Marie. Just let me know.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's certainly good that you found a home for him with someone. Poor little guy's probably always going to be a special needs bird. That was interesting in that one story about the one with the mate that would help preen it, that'd be good. Hopefully, that front will form a hardened deal eventually like that one that used to visit John's balcony. I suppose it's possible that that fellow even did his own preening. You gotta' wonder what his initial illness and recovery period was like or if he had help from someone.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I once observed two House Sparrows at a feeder. The female was missing the upper beak and the male was feeding her. It was an amazing sight.
The fellow that filled the feeder said they had been feeding there for quite a lenght of time, weeks I think.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And yet most folks seem to think that only humans are capable of love. Funny, ain't it? After watching animals for years, I sometimes think that we're the least capable species. Of course, some species LOVE to eat other species but that doesn't count, you know--it's a different kind of love...

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Couldn't agree more. 
I love to eat other species but I've made an active decision not to eat them.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> And yet most folks seem to think that only humans are capable of love. Funny, ain't it? After watching animals for years, I sometimes think that we're the least capable species. Of course, some species LOVE to eat other species but that doesn't count, you know--it's a different kind of love...
> 
> Pidgey



I remember one time when I was 11 or so, I was feeding the Birds on our yard, and a Junko male was feeding several other Species fledgleings. Initially he was just grazing, minding his own business, and some youngster Robin or other was doing the Wing-shivver asking thing and sort of asking him if he'd feed it, so he ran off, found a Cricket or something, came back and popped into the young Robin or whatever it was Gape and this young Robin or whatever it was was a lot bigger than he was, three times his mass anyway!

...and there was some other youngster Bird also, nor a Junko, who seeing this, got all wound up, so he fed him too.

You could see the initial consternaiton and pensive moment in the Junko, he was just minding his own business and grazing, but he decided, "Oh, what the heck..." and fed those other Youngsters a few times.


Seeing 'my' two Office ferals last week, when I had presented ( or let walk over to them on his own initiative) the little 21 day old Squeaker I had found...the Office ferals' Babys were a couple days from fledgeing, and mom and pop sort of had a silent conferance of glances to eachother, weighed and considered the matter for a minute or two, and then poppa flew down and fed his own, and looked thoughtfully to the 'new' one...then, after a little wait, flew back and fed him, and in a few minutes everyone was a happy family all in the same Nest, all five of them, which already had the next brood's Eggs being sat on, and mom and pop were soon fine with the 'new' Squeaker sitting on the Eggs as mom and pop had a break now and then, and Squeaker was happy to do it.


Anyway...


So many things...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Terry that would be great and I think used would be just 
fine. 

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

feralpigeon said:


> Terry that would be great and I think used would be just
> fine.
> 
> fp


OK .. just let me know when and where to send it.

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

What a wonderful thing for those parents to do, Phil! AND, how terrific of the squeaker to do nest duty! Sure doens't sound like something one sees everyday! 

As we have said many times before, we can sure learn from the others who share our planet space! 

...now, if MANKIND, could just learn to co-exist _peacefully..._ *sigh* 

LOVE and HUGS

Shi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Got your email, thanks Terry. I'd say ship whenever convenient.

fp


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

Big problem....This morning when I got in I fed and medicated baby. At noon when I woke up I fed again. A while ago I fed and medicated and took a close look at the mouth. The canker??? is spreading in the mouth and now the tip of the tongue is affected. I know this is a bad sign butI'm not sure what to do. Maybe there is more here than canker as Dr. Weir suggested. I don't know. I don't know.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Marie, is the Keflex D/C'ed?
Is the bird on Nystatin right now?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Marie, I just don't think it's Canker spreading w/the meds the bird is/has been on. I'm more inclined to think that it is a yeast infection. The nystatin
solution wants to be slowly drizzled and w/care not to introduce into the
opening/trachea to the air sacs/lungs. It also wants to be done last after
feeding because it also wants to hang out in direct contact w/the affected
areas. I have Itraconazol that I can send you but unless you have a way of dividing it, I will need to weigh it out.

fp


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Wet Pox*

I am sorry that I didn't see this post earier. From what I see I must say that your bird does not have canker but it looks like a very bad case of wet pox,when it occurs in the mouth, the lesion looks like a yellow plaque, which is easy to confuse with canker. Severe pox lesions on the beak can interfere with the blood supply,leading to loss of part or all of the beak. It is a Viral infection and can not be treated with antibiotics. .GEORGE


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

When I found my Piglet he had both pox and canker, it was the pox that did the permanent damage to the beak. He was lucky as he had a single pox lesion in the mouth.

Pox, yeast lesions and respiratory exudate can all be confused with canker. 

You were right to treat for canker, it often appears at the same time as pox. It might be best to give the baby an antibiotic to treat/prevent any bacterial infection developing from the lesion in the mouth. 

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I kept a'thinkin' there was something about that beak (before it fell off) that didn't look quite right for canker. Fortunately (knock on wood), I've never seen any form of pox around here. And don't wanna'.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

George and Cynthia, when I first saw the pictures, I wasn't certain that the
baby didn't have pox as well. Thinking about it in hindsight, if the baby is the
only bird out of that loft that has shown up w/this, I would be surprised then
if it was wet pox. George while your correct that the lesions from wet pox
would interfere w/the blood supply to the beak, in a loft setting, I don't think
that you would see an isolated case of wet pox especially in the loft scenario
that Marie has described to us. For the bout of pox that went through my Overpass Flock of pigeons this winter, it spread from one end of Overpass to the other and to the outside bridge where they also roost in the vines. It also seems as though there may be a problem w/red mites which again would underscore the improbability of a one bird scenario. Maybe this is just the first in a bout w/it in the loft, I sure hope not but this could be a possiblity.

I spoke w/Marie last night and it sounded as though the bird has yeast.
After the beak falling off, Marie looked inside the mouth and it was pink and
clear. Marie works long hours and was feeding and on the run for the last
couple of days and hadn't looked in the mouth since. Thinking that it would
be good to have another looksee, Marie checked inside and the mouth had
gone from pink and clear to this white stuff growing like wildfire w/some on the tip of the tongue. This is what Marie is posting about now.

This sounds like yeast/Candiasis to spread so quickly as this is something that can seem to become full blown almost overnight. The bird has been being tube fed formula, and had a round of Keflex and Flagyl
so this wouldn't be out of the sick bird norm. I do agree Cynthia that w/internal lesions and Trichomonads usually present it is wise to treat for canker even if pox virus. This bird has been treated w/both Keflex and Metronidazole/Flagyl. 

Marie and I talked about a round of Nystatin and that is where this was left
last night. 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is a local vet any kind of option at all? At least for a swab of the new stuff?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

None that want to see the bird. There's a possibility of someone that sudied
avian medicine but never went for the degree having a look.

If it is in fact pox, more birds need to be showing up in the loft w/the virus
w/the biting insects that were described to me. 

Also, it sounds more like growth than lesions per se that occured in the last
couple of days. If pox, the bird would already be being treated in a way consistent w/covering one's bases as painting anti-canker meds have a drying
effect, taking internally stop an advance into the blood stream--or this is the
thought behind doing so. And anti-biotics have been administered.

The only thing not covered is yeast.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do we know whether or not the actual loft owner vaccinates for pox? That could possibly explain what's going on.

As far as an examination, it'd probably be more helpful if someone could just take a look through a microscope for yeasts and trichomonads. Surely some vet would be willing to do that?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Do we know whether or not the actual loft owner vaccinates for pox? That could possibly explain what's going on.
> 
> As far as an examination, it'd probably be more helpful if someone could just take a look through a microscope for yeasts and trichomonads. Surely some vet would be willing to do that?
> 
> Pidgey


Apparently not regarding local vets, and Marie worked for a local vet
so not a newbie regarding local vets or animals. Worked closely w/horses.
At this point, very doubtful that an advancing case of canker. Also doubtful
that the owner vaccinates but yet to be asked.

The meds are still on course as it is well recognized in the medical community
that yeast infections frequently follow a course of antibiotics and dependant
on immune system response, can be a shorter or longer course of antibiotics.
Again, this was a formula fed bird in addition.

Again, the whitish growth appeared almost overnight spreading like wildfire.
I don't see a problem w/administering Nystatin, and this is standard operating
procedure w/many vets and rehabbers.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of course there's no problem giving Nystatin, nobody's arguing that. Give it as soon as possible. All I'm saying is that it'd just be nice to get a little lab.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It would be nice, though the progression of meds would tend to negate a possible finding for disease state population of Canker....Carnidazole, Metronidazole internally and Dimetridazole painted on.

And the bird will be getting a course of Nystatin so unless a bacterial
invasion that wouldn't be nullified w/courses of Keflex and Flagyl, then
most likely every base has been covered.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I suppose my primary curiosity was whether it was a continuation of the possible wet pox. I've been trying to find stuff out about that and, to my mind, the things I've looked at so far aren't adequately descriptive. I have to wonder if that one bird that I've still got (that had the strangest lesion on the inside of the throat around the glottis) had wet pox. It's been a long road for that fellow and he's still recovering. That's my biggest motive for asking and wondering.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

One more thing about the possibility of this being wet pox. This bird has
been getting spunkier and spunkier from Marie's report. I can say, the birds
I treated w/pox were anything but spunky. In fact, my now very feisty 
Diesel was a limp rag doll when I tube fed him and stood in one spot in the 
back of his cage. Never raised a wing for at least 6 weeks.
Just something to think about.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I suppose my primary curiosity was whether it was a continuation of the possible wet pox. I've been trying to find stuff out about that and, to my mind, the things I've looked at so far aren't adequately descriptive. I have to wonder if that one bird that I've still got (that had the strangest lesion on the inside of the throat around the glottis) had wet pox. It's been a long road for that fellow and he's still recovering. That's my biggest motive for asking and wondering.
> 
> Pidgey


Capillaria would be something to check on. Might not readily show in floats,
not rootbeer anyways...

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it were wet pox, he should be just about over it, I'd think. Perhaps George or somebody else who has seen a lot of wet pox could give more details about the typical progression and effects of the disease. The first time I ever even heard of it was that Egyptian goose that Terry showed us a long time ago. Seems like that lesion about blasted a hole right through the beak just forward of the base of the tongue. It also seems like that bird took quite awhile to heal.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Four to six weeks overall including full blown symptoms, though far more
severe than cutaneous avian pox virus.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288422

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/full/40/2/351

Cutaneous and diphtheritic can occur simultaneously w/canker and/or yeast.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess then that one would have to differentiate between the course of the actual disease and healing from the residual damage. It seems like that bird was still fighting pretty hard some several months after it was originally posted.

We've had numerous pictures of the dry pox so it's rather more easily recognizable. I don't think we've had very many, if any, decent pictures of wet pox presentations. It might be good to find some.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's that bird's story, by the way (with some pictures):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13812

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

And there was the version of cutaneous pox that came in a presentation
of boils over spine and wing boils that Diesel Doll had.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Shipping Box ..*

Was ordered today from Siegel's and will be sent directly to Marie via UPS Ground. Hopefully it will arrive Monday or Tuesday next week.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I hope that Marie will get a chance to post back here w/an update, but in the
meantime I did get a p.m. last night that this baby is responding to the
Nystatin treatment. 

fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

And the baby's name is "Ella" after Ella Fitzgerald. She got her name yesterday.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the update, that is wonderful.
Ella is a very nice name.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, thanks for letting us know that Ella is responding to the Nystatin.

Just one thing I'd like to bring up. PM's, phone conversations, etc are really nice when there is a crisis going on but it seems there is a trend going on where there are a lot of "behind the scenes" discussions that could benefit all of us if they were openly posted on the forum or, at least, summarized fully. After all, that is what the forum is for.  I do so hate to miss out on something.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I agree w/you Maggie, this is what the forum is for and how the archives that
we love to search information for are created. That's a good reminder for us all.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I agree that all information behind the scenes should be posted as soon as time permits. Anything that is brought up for public discussions should be kept that way, as much as possible. 

Not only can we benefit, but the author of the thread should be able to benefit by getting the advice from everyone who is knowledgable/experienced in that particular area of injury/disease-not just the person who is privately e-mailing/pm'ing, or calling that person by phone. No one should be making decisions about the care of a bird/or birds without full disclosure-when time permits, unless the decisions are made by a credible licensed avian vet, and even in cases of emergency treatment. 

Some of our members may have more experience then others, but all info should be made public here on the forum, unless the person asking for help decides not to use our help anymore. It is equally crucial that each and everyone asking advice should seek the aid of a qualified avian vet first and foremost- especially in cases that require immediate treatment and when surgery is deemed necessary. There are exceptions, but in most cases diagnosis and treatment can make the difference when time is of the essence.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

hows the little guy doing?


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