# Wet orphan crow can't fly- will he be ok?



## Bella_F

This morning I did my usual walk to find the little crow, to give him some food. He's usually in the park or somewhere near by, and I find him by following his cries.

We had some really heavy rain last night and this morning, and when I went looking for him it was still raining. I found him a little off course, crying loudly under a tree in a person's yard about a block away. He was *really* crying and obviously distressed. The windows of the house were open so I thought it would be rude to just throw food over the fence for the crow. So I called him and watched him for a while, and tried to coax him up onto the fence.

Then the lady from the house came out with a broom and started banging it loudly on the ground to scare it, and yelled at it to shoo it away. The little crow became really scared and distressed, and tried to fly away. But its wings are soaked and it couldn't get any elevation. It kind of tumbled & fluttered around crying out. 

Anyway, I called out to the lady and told her all about the crow, where it lives, and how it doesn't have any parents and it needs to be fed. She and her husband, though not bird lovers, were ok with that and invited me around to feed it. I stayed in their yard as long as I could without being impolite, gave him some food, and told them that he'll probably flutter around their yard and cry until he's dry again. They seemed ok about it, a bit coolish, but ok.

Its stopped raining now; do you think he'll dry off enough to fly again soon? He's trying to get up to the top of a bin, which would allow him to get onto the lower branches of a big tree. He'll be right if can make it to those branches, but when I left him he couldn't even flutter to the top of the bin.

Any ideas? Of course I've thought about catching him, but theres no cats or dogs around and he's not in immediate danger, he just needs to dry off. I don't know long that will take though...


----------



## 12788

Hello Bella_F,

I feel very sorry for your little feathered friend. He seems to be still very young, and actually very dependent, as he has obviously still got a lot of problems to find appropriate shelter (and food). I don't know how cold it is at your place at present, however, I would be a little bit concerned over the fact that the bird could get very cold when it is soaking wet for a longer period of time. Your crow will dry off eventually though, but it can take some time (and your crow would be prone to all sorts of things). You might want to assist the bird, by putting it up on to a sheltered, sunny and safe place, assuming that the bird is allowing you to handle it without stressing it to much. On the other hand, having read the other threat of yours as well, I'm more and more concerned that the bird is not capable yet to survive by it's own in the wild. Isn't there perhaps a corvid rehabber in your area, who would take care of the bird? Chances are perhaps better, when the bird gets back in a secure environment together with similar aged birds, and a second attempt could be made, perhaps as a soft release and/or group release? I don't know, it is just a thought... Good luck anyway!!!

Stephan.


----------



## Charis

Bella...I think you need to go get the Crow and bring it home. We already know something is not quite right with him. This may be his chance to survive or not. Likely whatever is wrong, is very treatable.


----------



## Bella_F

Hi Stephan,

There is a corvid rehabber in my area, who i talk to now and again for reassurance. She specialises in Australian crows and is raising one herself (in the wild though- not in a cage). She said that keeping them wild and just supplementing their food is their best chance to develop the skills to survive, but that they are slow growers. She told me it probably won't fly well for another 2-3 weeks.

The weather is good here, as its summer. But this was his first experience of heavy rain. His roost spot last night was uncovered, so he became drenched. I am hoping that if he can make through today, he'll remember this lesson for a long time. 

I'll check him again throughout the day though. I think it would be a stressful experience to trap him, and I'm not sure if it will work. But I guess I should really consider the option. If he's on the ground all day, I'll have to get him somewhere safe to roost at night. Hopefully it won't come to that.


----------



## Charis

Bella...perhaps the rehabber take this one too? Could you ask? I think something is wrong with him and he needs help. This one and the one she is raising could maybe be released together, when the time comes. It would be good for both of them.


----------



## Bella_F

Hi Charis!

Yeah, i know what you mean. I'd love to keep him here and protect him. I'd love having him around, close to us, and to know he's safe instead of going mad with worry. But I've read a lot now, & chatted to corvid rehabbers, etc and I honestly believe his best chance is being left in the wild, and helping him with food. He'll grow slowly, and probably won't fly well for another 2-3 weeks. He'll face all kinds of dangers and maybe get hurt. But its still his best chance for his future as a wild bird.

It started raining heavily again, so I ran back up the block to see how he's going, and think about capturing him. But fortunately, he's made it up high in a leafy tree again, and he's stopped crying in distress, thankfully. If he follows his usual pattern, he'll make it back to the park this afternoon, and I'll give some more food.


----------



## Bella_F

Charis said:


> Bella...perhaps the rehabber take this one too? Could you ask? I think something is wrong with him and he needs help. This one and the one she is raising could maybe be released together, when the time comes. It would be good for both of them.


Charis I like that idea. (not sure about catching him though...)

Why do you think theres' something wrong with him?


----------



## Bella_F

Charis,

These are some pics I took on the first day we met him. He's grown a fair bit since then. To me he just looks very young, not necessarily ill. What do you think?


----------



## Charis

Bella...Looking at the pictures, looks like some balding spots around the eyes...is that just the way they are marked? That can be an indication of canker or worms.
He has amazing eyes.


----------



## SueC

Nice blue eyes. He's still a baby! 

Apart from his spots around his eyes, is there something wrong with the balded part of his beak? 

Compared to my crow, his beak is rather short. Different species, I guess.


----------



## Bella_F

Hi Sue and Charis,
He looks a bit hopeless and busted in the photos doesn't he? In hindsight I'd say he'd only just fledged, but maybe not completely as his feathers were still patchy. I've never met one so small and I think he probably still belonged in the nest.

The pink apparently stays on the beak for the first year in this species, Sue, but his beak did grow longer in the past 3 weeks. Hes a bit bigger now, fully feathered, shinier but he's still a baby with those bright blue eyes. They should turn amber when he's a juvenile, and eventually turn white in 2-3 years time.

Charis, he could have worms, but not gape worm, thankfully, as he'd be dead already. I can't worm him yet, because he doesn't always take the food I leave for him straight away; its usually partially eaten by other much smaller birds first, who are feeding young. The correct dose for him could kill the other smaller birds, so I'll leave it a bit. 

He flew back to the yard belonging to the other neighbour who feeds him this arvo. I feel better; he's safe, and he'll get steak for dinner. 

Thanks heaps for looking at the pictures for me.


----------



## Charis

If he gets soaked and grounded again, that will be your opportunity to nab him. 
Keep some gloves, a blanket to throw over him and a kennel to put him in, handy and ready to take with you on short notice.


----------



## 12788

Hi Bella_F,

I fully understand your concerns regarding handling and "confining" a wild bird, but occasionally it is necessary to do this to save their life. Seeing your lovely pics I wonder how the plumage looks like now, because at the time you found him, it did show a patchy almost whitish pattern, which is (in my experience) a sign of a nutritional deficiency (or agricultural chemicals). The food needs to be optimised and spiced with minerals and vitamins, to get the bird back into shape. Patchy or white feathers are more fragile and the bird might have to go through a full moult to get all feathers replaced with proper ones. Bald areas around the face could be caused by mites though, wouldn't be uncommon for a bird to have, but can be a serous problem when the birds immune system is weakened already. My last crow I cared for, did show similar symptoms, and on top of that was very lethargic as well. The bird just couldn't be asked to fly. It took a long time to get sorted. As he got better, I had to give him away to a place, where he was together with his kind (as you know imprinting is a huge problem with those clever birds). Please don't wait to long when you see him grounded again. 

Stephan


----------



## Margarret

Bella, 

I have rehabbed a number of crows. I would definitely take this one in as he is still very young. He needs heat and getting wet, as he did, he could get cold to the point of not being able to digest his food properly. Then, even if you are feeding him, he could have major problems. Baby birds, including crows, need to be warm to process their food. He isn't going to imprint in a few weeks if you limit your interaction with him to cleaning and feeding. Get a good brand of dry puppy chow, soak it till it is soft, and feed him this along with hard boiled egg. He looks pretty good, but he is at risk still. Perhaps your corvid rehabber friend could take him to be with other crows before he is released back to where you found him. He will have a much better chance if you get a good diet to him until he is big enough to fly and find his own food. It is odd to have a baby turn up this time of year. He must have been a Dec. hatch and that is way out of sync with nature, unless you are in the Southern Hemisphere. Then he is a late birth.

Margaret


----------



## Bella_F

Dear Rook, Charis, and Margarret,

Thanks heaps for your support ,and for your advice. Those pics are 3 weeks old now, and he has grown a bit, as fledglings tend to do. I'm told he will probably be a strong flyer in another 2-3 weeks, and I will be biting my nails until then.


----------



## tms1950

Hi Bella- I`m a federally-licensed wild songbird rehabber in Michigan. This young crow is WAY too young to be on his own.Something has happened to his family or he`s been abandoned because he doesn`t fly well.The reason he looks like he does and doesn`t fly well is probably because of nutritional deficiencies & also looks like a feather mite infestation. Young crows typically live with their families the first two years of their life,helping with the next year`s babies. He is at great risk of being caught and eaten by predators,such as cats,dogs and especially hawks. Next time he is grounded in the rain,PLEASE capture him and get him to the rehabilitator where he can be raised with another crow.She will know how to keep him from imprinting- I have raised a number of them. As it is now,what he is learning(if he survives predator attacks) is that humans are ok to go to for food. This is another form of imprinting that will get him killed by a human.
Please,Bella,have the other person or yourself rescue this helpless baby and get him to the rehabber.
Teresa Smelser
For The Birds Wildlife Rehab
Michigan


----------



## Maggie-NC

Bella, I just don't know what more it will take to ask you to catch this baby and get it to the rehabber. Have you ever thought that the parents left him in your neighborhood for help?


----------



## Jay3

You could save his life, or cause his demise. I really would listen to the advice of a federally licensed rehabber. Wouldn't it be much more harmful if he gets killed by a hawk or something? And that is only a matter of time. She's also right you know, about the fact that he is being imprinted by your feeding him anyway. The poor little thing needs help, and you are in a position to help him. PLEASE, do the right thing by him, and get him to the rehabber. I don't understand why you think that he is going to be alright and learn anything on his own, with no one there to teach him. If they stay with their parents for a couple of years, and are constantly learning from them, then who do you think is going to help him to learn anything about survival? He isn't going to figure it out on his own. By leaving him to his own devices, you are causing him harm. I know that is not your intention, but none the less, that is what you are doing. No baby birds learn on their own. They just don't survive. But I'm sure a hungry hawk will appreciate a young bird like that being on his own with no one to guide or teach him. Think about it.


----------



## Bella_F

The experts in Australian Crow rehabilitation say that I'm doing the right thing. You guys probably mean well, but you've shown time and again that you know very little about our country, our birds, or even that there is a climate difference.

I'll go with the Australian experts' advice. But thanks for you concern. I'll know next time not to ask about non-Australian birds on this forum, as the ignorance here is profound .


----------



## pigeonmama

But thanks for you concern. I'll know next time not to ask about non-Australian birds on this forum, as the ignorance here is profound .

Bella,
I'm sorry for you and that poor little crow. Sorry that you can't appreciate the good info and intentions of everyone who tried to help you in here. Sorry that the little crow won't receive the assistance he truly needs to survive and thrive.
Daryl


----------



## Jay3

Bella_F said:


> This morning I did my usual walk to find the little crow, to give him some food. He's usually in the park or somewhere near by, and I find him by following his cries.
> 
> We had some really heavy rain last night and this morning, and when I went looking for him it was still raining. I found him a little off course, crying loudly under a tree in a person's yard about a block away. He was *really* crying and obviously distressed.
> 
> 
> Well, it seems to me that if you can find him by his loud cries, so can every predator around. So if your experts think that leaving him in this situation is best for the bird, then I would seriously have to reconsider where the ignorance is coming from
> 
> 
> Its stopped raining now; do you think he'll dry off enough to fly again soon? He's trying to get up to the top of a bin, which would allow him to get onto the lower branches of a big tree. He'll be right if can make it to those branches, but when I left him he couldn't even flutter to the top of the bin.
> 
> Yep, sure sounds like the best thing for this little guy. Imagine the terror of being alone and unprotected that he must be feeling. I'm sure this is probably the best thing for him.
> 
> 
> Any ideas? Of course I've thought about catching him, but theres no cats or dogs around and he's not in immediate danger, he just needs to dry off. I don't know long that will take though...



Well, I sure am glad that it didn't rain for a week straight. Otherwise, he would have been grounded long enough to grow roots.
Tell me then, if your experts are so knowledgeable, then why did you bother coming in with your questions. Why not just go straight to the experts over there? Oh, and just a thought..................how can one ever be sure that there are no dogs or cats around that you don't know about. Must be wonderful that there are no ferral cats around there. We have many here. And hawks..........................of course you don't have those either. Wow, I wanna move there. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## 12788

????

I wish that this poor young crow will survive its odyssey and can live a normal crow life.

Stephan.


----------



## Charis

Bella...I'm so sorry this thread has taken a wrong turn with hurt feelings.
Many of our members here have vast experience with other birds besides Pigeons. Many of us are rehabbers, myself included. I do have quite a bit of experience with Crows and I adore them. All we want to do is help that poor little baby, so far away that you have been chronicling for us.
A bird in need ,is a bird in need no mater what country it lives in and our personal radars have been going crazy over this little baby. Your radar is coing crazy too or you wouldn't be so worried.
I sure wish your local experts would...at the least...come and have a look.
My best to you and the baby Crow.


----------



## Bella_F

I appreciate the support I've received here, but I can see that we have a fundamental disagreement regarding my decision to follow the advice of various Australian crow experts and rehabbers that I've sought and received.

It seems that most forum members here think I am wrong to follow the advice of these experts. 

Since we can't seem to get past this fundermental disagreement, I think it would be best if l try to find some help elsewhere. I truly don't need a bunch of people pressuring me and attacking me every step of the way; I'm scared & stressed enough about the situation.


----------



## spirit wings

Bella_F said:


> I appreciate the support I've received here, but I can see that we have a fundamental disagreement regarding my decision to follow the advice of various Australian crow experts and rehabbers that I've sought and received.
> 
> It seems that most forum members here think I am wrong to follow the advice of these experts.
> 
> Since we can't seem to get past this fundermental disagreement, I think it would be best if l try to find some help elsewhere. I truly don't need a bunch of people pressuring me and attacking me every step of the way; I'm scared & stressed enough about the situation.


you and everyone is on the side of the crow, use your best judgement and take the caring opinions in consideration. no need to get stressed. you sound like a strong person, so it should take more than someones opinions to ruffle your feathers....good luck with the crow baby.


----------



## Charis

Bella...are you afraid to actually pick up the Crow? That would be scary to many people because they would be afraid of the beak. Some people are afraid of touching anything with feathers. I had a dear friend that has passed on...she loved birds dearly but she was terrible afraid of the feathers.


----------



## Guest

this is a very sad thread and all I can say is this .. when I look out my window and see the resident crows here ( a group of 3) everyday they are always together and always looking out for one another in every way ... so all I want to get across is that crows do better with other crows and a crow alone will never fair very well .. so good luck to you and your little crow friend ,I wish you both well 

ehani nah hiwatam
napave vihnivo


----------



## Jay3

Bella, since you are getting advice from your experts at that end, and you seem to want to go along with them, then why is it that you came in here for another opinion, for help? And you said that you would go elsewhere for help. I just don't understand why, if you are happy with the help that you are getting from the expert rehabbers in Australia. If you want to do as they suggest, then why keep going elsewhere for further suggestions. I 'm not being wise. I'm just asking. It seems as though you yourself feel that something more should be done for this bird. What then? You seem to have two choices here. Leave him alone more or less, as your experts and rehabbers have suggested. Or catch him and care for him as long as he needs help, get him to the rehabber, and put in with other crows that he could later be released with. That just seems to be the better choice for the little bird. I really don't understand what the tug of war is all about. It comes down to 2 simple choices. You can't do both. And you can't really help him as long as he is loose and facing God knows what dangers every day. What exactly is it that you want?


----------



## Dobato

Bella,

Reading through this thread I can see that you do truly care about the well being of this little one.

I also think that those advising you here also really care about what ends up happening to this this guy as well. I can also see how you have been haunted by his daily where abouts and his condition of and how easy it would be to take it quite personally any hint of a suggestion you are not doing all you can for him, when feel in your heart you are.

To my thinking the ideal solution for his immediate well being would be to get this little one into the hands of the local corvid rehabber who already has a fledgling she is raising. The bird would be safe there and raised with a companion he could possibly be released together with when they are ready.

Bless you for all you are doing for him and good luck.


----------



## Bella_F

Charis said:


> Bella...are you afraid to actually pick up the Crow? That would be scary to many people because they would be afraid of the beak. Some people are afraid of touching anything with feathers. I had a dear friend that has passed on...she loved birds dearly but she was terrible afraid of the feathers.


Charis, The main issue is I have no desire to capture it for the reasons stated previously. I'm sorry that we disagree on that. If I had to capture it because of injury, I would do it and I have handled wild birds before.


----------



## Charis

Bella...I hope you find peace with all of this.


----------



## Bella_F

Dobato said:


> Bella,
> 
> Reading through this thread I can see that you do truly care about the well being of this little one.
> 
> I also think that those advising you here also really care about what ends up happening to this this guy as well. I can also see how you have been haunted by his daily where abouts and his condition of and how easy it would be to take it quite personally any hint of a suggestion you are not doing all you can for him, when feel in your heart you are.
> 
> To my thinking the ideal solution for his immediate well being would be to get this little one into the hands of the local corvid rehabber who already has a fledgling she is raising. The bird would be safe there and raised with a companion he could possibly be released together with when they are ready.
> 
> Bless you for all you are doing for him and good luck.


Dobato,

The corvid rehabber here is very knowledgeable; she coordinates bird rehabilitation for the entire state and specializes in crows. 

Her fledgling torressian crow is already released; she uses the soft release technique with crows and releases them very young. It has its risks obviously, but when they become tame they have to be destroyed.

If I was ever to catch it (which would be unlikely) and gave it to her, she'd give it back unless it was injured. She believes its the right age to be in the wild, and that this is the best release site for it because it lives here already. Its too old now to cage, and it doesn't need hand rearing. It just needs supplement feeding and to survive the hurdles of development and exploring his environment.

I'm not sure if in Australian thing, but soft releasing is how they rehabilitate crows here.


----------



## Bella_F

Charis said:


> Bella...I hope you find peace with all of this.


Thanks Charis. I am at peace with knowing I'm following the advice of experts in soft releasing of Torresian crow babies. I'm just surprised that the technique is not supported on this forum. It doesn't feel good to be antagonised.


----------



## Margarret

Bella_F said:


> The experts in Australian Crow rehabilitation say that I'm doing the right thing. You guys probably mean well, but you've shown time and again that you know very little about our country, our birds, or even that there is a climate difference.
> 
> I'll go with the Australian experts' advice. But thanks for you concern. I'll know next time not to ask about non-Australian birds on this forum, as the ignorance here is profound .



Bella,

I'm glad that you have Australian experts to consult. I, for one, was not aware when I first responded to your original post, that you are in Australia. That may have been the case for others as well, as you did not specify where you lived until later in this thread.

I do think it unfair of you to characterize people as having 'profound ignorance' about another country's birds if they do not live in that country. Yes we do know that there is a climate difference between the northern and southern hemisphere. We probably know as much about Australia as you do of other countries. We have a number of Australian members.

I know that you want to care for this little bird and I commend you for it. I think people here gave you their best knowledge based on the information you provided. I'm not sure what you wanted from this list, as you already have experts to guide you who are familiar with the birds of that locale and whose expertise you value. But apparently you wanted something and are disappointed with the answers you received. I do know that the people who responded are genuinely concerned with helping you and that they did their best to do just that. I hope the crow continues to thrive and that he is safe until he is able to fly and provide for himself. If there is anything further that you would like from this forum, I know that people will try to answer your questions. But the answers will be based on their own experience and knowledge. You said "a little crow" when you wrote initially. How were any of us to know that it was a different crow than the ones we have had experience with. You must go with the information that you think best when you get answers. It is not fair to throw verbal stones at those who tried to help when you did not provide the specifics.


Margaret


----------



## Bella_F

I was just upset, Margarret. And I apologize for my outburst. I was being attacked , which hurts, and the attacks were based on assumptions that were really far fetched from my point of view....like accusing me of leaving it out in the winter to freeze (when its summer here); someone accused me of taming it like a pet (when this whole approach is based on extreme sensitivity to its wildness and keeping it wild); others accused me of failing to help cure its `signs of disease' (which is just the normal colouring of Torressian crows who have white under feathers). I appreciated all the advice, but most of it I had to filter out because it didn't relate to the situation. So people blew a fuse at me, because I wasn't doing what they wanted...

What I was hoping for from this group was to learn how long to expect a soaked bird to become dry again, so I could make an assessment of its danger. 

To answer my own question, it took about 30 minutes after the rain stopped. In my opinion, it had to learn this lesson for its future survival, but it was really scarey seeing him go through it.


----------



## Guest

People cant always be right all the time and I hate to see people goto war over what they feel they must get across in times like this as for an example when I was looking thru info on this bird of yours I came across this bird of the week site where they try to determine what a species of bird this is and I find this one quite funny as they are calling this bird a piebald leucistic Crow when you can obviously see that its a Torressian crow that somehow got into some yellow paint ..so live ,learn and show love and respect for one another ,we all do what we can as best as we know how in times of need . http://blogs.crikey.com.au/northern/2008/10/14/bird-of-the-week-lucy-the-piebald-leucistic-crow/


----------



## 12788

I'm sorry Bella_F that you have felt attacked. This wasn't my intention. However, I think your assumption is wrong, I'm sorry, but we do know what a soft release is. To show you what my understanding (and practice) is, I found you a good definition I have discovered on the Wildlife International website, which I like you to read:

"Soft release describes a gradual return to the wild whereby an animal receives support, shelter and food until it is entirely able to fend for itself. Often, a soft release takes place from a release cage or aviary on-site. The animal has spent time in the outdoor enclosure and is familiar with the sights, sounds, smells, etc. of the area and is aware of the activity of other wildlife in the area. It can return to the enclosure for food or shelter when necessary, and food and water is left outside the enclosure as well. Soft release also describes transport of the enclosure to a specific habitat and subsequent release off-site. Again, this allows the animal opportunity to become familiar with its new home."

"Hard release describes a release directly to the wild without further support or feeding. Hard release is often employed when an animal that came into care as an independent adult is returned to its home territory. Hard release is sometimes necessary when a captive-raised young animal requires a particular habitat or, in the case of birds, introduction to a flock of conspecifics. It is especially important that the animal is completely able to function independently if it is to be hard-released."

And finally here some very (!) general remarks from the same website regarding the health of a bird prior to release (NB: not everything applies to a crow, and by the way, it is not about the white down feathers of your bird):

"The bird should be free of disease and/or parasites. Its weight should be the same as the average for wild conspecifics of similar age. If the bird had an injury, it should be fully healed. If the bird has a permanent handicap (e.g. poor sight in one eye, poor grip in one foot), it must demonstrate that it can compensate. It is crucial to know the bird's method of foraging. A bird of prey must have the ability to grasp and kill prey with its feet. A bird of prey or an aerial insectivore must have 100% normal flight if it is to catch adequate food. A bird must have a strong, normal bill. A bird must be able to perch. A bird with a splayed leg cannot keep the limb warm in inclement weather and may encounter problems with frostbite. A water bird that needs a long 'runway' for take off (e.g. loon) must have two healthy legs (and feet). It is necessary that the feathers of water birds be waterproof. Do not release a bird with missing feathers or feathers that are hunger striped or demonstrate 'white feather syndrome'. These feathers will fray and break, leaving the bird grounded and unable to shelter, feed or avoid predators. Birds with damaged feathers or missing feathers should be held until their feathering is normal. The bird must sustain flight without tiring, panting, trembling, etc. If the bird is an aerial insectivore, it must demonstrate the ability to catch prey in flight. If the bird is a leaf-gleaning insectivore or a hawking insectivore (flies from a branch to catch prey), it must demonstrate the ability to catch insects."

Perhaps you can now understand our concerns, which were based on the information given to us by you. I'm very glad for you that you have found local help and advice, and I wish you and your bird all the best!

Stephan


----------



## Bella_F

Hi Rook,

Yes, I'm sorry for losing it, when you were just trying to help me. I've read that web site before, rook- it is very interesting. 

One cultural difference between America and Australia I should mention, is we have an enormous under supply of bird rehabbers here, as well as suitable release sites. Most birds that are handed over to our rehab groups , such as wires or wildcare, are destroyed because there's noone to take them. I was told over 500 birds have been destroyed this spring, and so it scares me, the idea of putting him through the trauma of capture, only to have him wind up dead anyway. And the other issue is that the opportunity for capture has only presented itself only that one time. I'm not sure it will happen again.

I do think he has a mite problem, thanks for alerting me to it. I've been watching his preening and feather conditon closely and hes so itchy. The good news I talked to my local vet all about it, and he is mixing me up some oral doses of Ivermectin today, that I can add to his food. So hopefully sorting out the mites will improve his condition a lot.

It would be nice to have him in a pen for a while, I agree, but its illegal. Overall I feel good about where he lives. Its the only forrest area in this region, and it attracts flocks of unmated crows in Autumn and winter, where they feed. If he can make it there's hope for his future here. A family, other crows, maybe even a mate. That's what I hope for.


----------



## 12788

Hi Bella_F,

Thank you very much for your reply. I understand what you are saying, lack of (trained and funded) rehabbers is a huge problem, everywhere I suppose, although I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the situation in America nor in Australia. There are some charities in the UK (where I live) and in Germany (where I come from), which do a good job. However, often enough they can't cope with the demand. And then there is another problem I have personally painfully experienced several times, there are a number of animals (e.g. birds) which are regarded as pests or vermin, and often enough not a lot of effort will be made to keep those alive. Just as an example, last year I have lost one of my rescue birds, a Carrion Crow baby, because I simply was to naive to believe in the work of one of those charities. I cared for a very malnourished bird for several weeks, and I managed to make this debilitated lovely bird, who couldn't perch, fly and walk at all as I got him, do perch, fly and walk. As soon as he got better (not perfect though), I spent a long time to find a suitable place (with regards to crow company and suitable release site) for him, because he started to get imprinted. On a Saturday we drove 50 miles (including ferry trip) to bring the bird to a wildlife sanctuary, where I presented him to one of the wildlife carers there together with food, medication, pocket money and a written "patient folder" containing all steps of his development in thorough detail. Monday morning they did put him down, because the vet, who saw him for 2 minutes, decided, that he was resting to often on his hock joints, and it wouldn't be worth the effort to keep him any longer alive... 

Stephan


----------



## Bella_F

That's just awful Stephan; I'm sorry that you went through that after all the time you put into getting it back into shape. I just can't understand the mentality of killing a bird that is cared about, and who has been nursed back to health.


----------



## 12788

Neither can I. It is always good and helpful to get advice and reassurance from experienced people. But occasionally one hasn't got a lot of a choice, and then there is nothing else left then to follow your own instinct and feelings. I'm now a lot more wary and careful, whom to trust and whom not, as the price paid was to high. Anyway, I hope you can sort out the mite infestation. Good luck!


----------



## Bella_F

Thanks Stephan, and I can totally relate to your fear of trusting the wrong `pros' after that experience.

The weird thing about this mite infestation, is seeing the different attitudes of the local vets towards crows. We have a specialist Avian bird hospital in my town, and they were the first people I consulted regarding the suspected mites. I asked them if there is any product I could use to put in its food to help it, and they said point blank, that there is nothing at all and it will probably die. When I pressed them they gave me the whole `its just nature, and the weak die in the wild' etc blah

I wasn't really convinced that there was no solution, so I did some reading on the net, and I came across two products that could work. So this time i asked another vet about it, and they said `sure, we can help. We'll mix you up the right dose right away, and you can have it free of charge'

I just don't understand why the Avian specialist didn't give a damn and lied to me, but the local vet did everything to help? Its as if some bird specialists have lost their capacity to really care or something.


----------



## 12788

Yeah, this is really weird, but shows my point. As far as I know, in the UK vets have to treat injured wild birds for free, however, the quality of treatment might "differ slightly", depending on how much you want to participate in the treatment, and I don't mean just financially. Ivermectin is a known broad spectrum anti parasitic medication, which can be used topically, orally or per injection (the latter being quite risky for passerines because of the toxicity), as you have found out by yourself.


----------



## altgirl35

wow this thread is upsetting, everyone has their own techniques in wildlife rehabilitation.
i'm not going to offer mine at this time, because it's obviously not up for discussion, but i fear for this baby.
maybe you could make a few calls into your own country to get a couple more opinions because most rehabbers will not release any bird until it is fully flighted with plenty of flying time in an aviary and self feeding.
jodi swenson
state and federally permitted wildlife rehabilitator
massachusetts USA


----------



## Bella_F

The whole point of this story , for me, is to document my heart-felt attempts at saving a wild crow who is too mobile to capture, and would probably be destroyed if I did manage it. This thread is for someone like me, who might be in my position some day and has the time to really care.

Tomorrow I am biting the bullet and giving him his first ivermectin treatment for what i believe is a pretty bad feather mite infestation. I have agonised over this dagnosis, but I've picked up feathers that he has lost or pulled out, and they show all the symptoms.

In my gut, I believe that he was abandoned because of these parasites, and it also explains his failure to be adopted by the two breeding families who are close to him. It also explains why his size & weight seems right for his age, but his feather condition and confidence in his flying is not up to scratch, and seems to be regressing.

If all goes well, he will be rid of the adult mites within a few days, and of the eggs in 2 weeks time. His feathers are not so bad he can't fly yet, so I believe this has been caught in time.

Its just nerve wracking right now. ivermectin is something you can't mess up and I'm nervous. So please wish me luck...


----------



## altgirl35

hi bella it's so sad to hear that rehabbers would euth a perfectly healthy bird that just needs a little time to regrow healthy feathers, poor baby.
i never have used ivermectin with birds simply because i use the pyrethrin spray if they have mites, and some rehabbers i know won't even use that, because they have had adverse reactions.
but of course you actually need to be in possession of the bird for that because they sometimes need to be treated more than once.
wish i was there i would grab him in heartbeat when he was wet and care for him, your doing a good thing hopefully the treatment will resolve the issue and he will molt soon and regain his waterproofing, keep us updated


----------



## spirit wings

Bella_F said:


> The whole point of this story , for me, is to document my heart-felt attempts at saving a wild crow who is too mobile to capture, and would probably be destroyed if I did manage it. This thread is for someone like me, who might be in my position some day and has the time to really care.
> 
> Tomorrow I am biting the bullet and giving him his first ivermectin treatment for what i believe is a pretty bad feather mite infestation. I have agonised over this dagnosis, but I've picked up feathers that he has lost or pulled out, and they show all the symptoms.
> 
> In my gut, I believe that he was abandoned because of these parasites, and it also explains his failure to be adopted by the two breeding families who are close to him. It also explains why his size & weight seems right for his age, but his feather condition and confidence in his flying is not up to scratch, and seems to be regressing.
> 
> If all goes well, he will be rid of the adult mites within a few days, and of the eggs in 2 weeks time. His feathers are not so bad he can't fly yet, so I believe this has been caught in time.
> 
> Its just nerve wracking right now. ivermectin is something you can't mess up and I'm nervous. So please wish me luck...


Trust your instincts Bella, gut feelings are usually right...I use ivormec sheep drench on my chickens and pigeons, they did fine on that. It makes sense to use it as you can not spray him on a regular basis.......good luck.


----------



## Bella_F

altgirl35 said:


> hi bella it's so sad to hear that rehabbers would euth a perfectly healthy bird that just needs a little time to regrow healthy feathers, poor baby.
> i never have used ivermectin with birds simply because i use the pyrethrin spray if they have mites, and some rehabbers i know won't even use that, because they have had adverse reactions.
> but of course you actually need to be in possession of the bird for that because they sometimes need to be treated more than once.
> wish i was there i would grab him in heartbeat when he was wet and care for him, your doing a good thing hopefully the treatment will resolve the issue and he will molt soon and regain his waterproofing, keep us updated


Hi Altgirl and spirit wings,

Thanks for your good wishes, I really appreciate them.


----------



## Bella_F

spirit wings said:


> Trust your instincts Bella, gut feelings are usually right...I use ivormec sheep drench on my chickens and pigeons, they did fine on that. It makes sense to use it as you can not spray him on a regular basis.......good luck.


Hi Spirit wings,

Today I had a lot of confusion and upset feelings about this ivermectin treatment the vet gave me, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are?

The concentration of the ivermectin given to me is 10mg/ml (1% concentration), which is for cattle, the vet told me. I'm pretty certain you're meant to use Ivermectin concentration for sheep, not cattle, so I double checked with the vet. 

She sounded like she didn't really know, as she evaded answering really simple questions, like what body weight is the dose based on, and how much is ` a unit' of the 1% ivermectin. I felt a bit off after the phone call, because she seemed evasive and weird about it all. 

So I rang two avian vets, but they won't help me at all . They wouldn't tell me if the dose `sounded about right' or even whether the dose would kill it But they also were extremely negative about the dose I had been given, but refused to give me the reason. I pressed and pressed but they winded up saying they didn't want legal problems and were not going to help me. 

So where I am at, is I don't know if the dose is right. The vet who gave it to me says it is right, but I want a second opinion and I don't know who to ask.


----------



## Guest

Bella what is the dose they gave you ??? I hope this bird never forgets the hand that feeds it and someday shows you its thanks by flying high and free like the wind in you hair


----------



## Charis

Bella...a 10 pound animal would get 1/10 of 1 ml at 1% concentration. It doesn't matter if it's for cattle or sheep.
How much do you think this Crow weighs and how do you intend to administer the drug..via food or via water?
Perhaps one of those rehabbers you told us about could help you with the dose as they would be familiar with the weight of that particular species of Crow.
The treatment does need to be repeated in 10-14 days.

It also would help to know if it's injectable or drench variety.


----------



## Bella_F

Dear Charis and LokotaLoft 

I have a skinny syringe with `units' on it. It looks about a quarter of an inch in diameter, and I was told to give it two units in a ball of minced meat (and another 2 units in 2 weeks time to kill the eggs ) . The bottle was 10mg/ml concentration.

I *think* that 1 X unit = 1/100th of one ml and 2 X units equals 2/100ths of one m;. But the vets were all evasive about it. But Why? I just don't understand them.

The vet said the dose is based on a bird 200 grams in weight, for the sake of being conservative. I think that 200g would be a bit under, but it would cover extra weight loss due to its condition.

PS. Going by those figures that you gave me Charis, 10 pounds equals 4.5 kilos, or 4500 grams. So a 2 unit dose (2/100 of a ml) would be for a 900 gram bird? Does that sound right?


----------



## Charis

So you think the bird is about 2 pounds which is approximately what 4500 grams equals...if so...that is the correct dose 2/100 of a ml.


----------



## Guest

bella from what I know and have been told to give a pigeon of the ivermect was no more then 3 drops of it so Im guessing with a crow that would be a little larger then a pigeon but cant see it being more then 6 drops and right now In not sure how much that would measure out to be so hope some one else can help you with that .


----------



## Bella_F

Yes, I think it sounds all wrong too, lokotaloft, especially after what Charis said. The bird is closer to 200g, not 4.5 kg. I'm sorry, we use the metric system in Australia, so its hard to make sense of the information documented by Americans, which seems to be the best and most thorough that is available. I keep having to make conversions, but they don't sound right. 

I know he needs his dose of ivermectin, and I believe it will really help with his feathers which have tiny holes all through them and don't protect him from water. But I have more research to do...thanks for helping! I need the help.


----------



## 12788

Hi Bella_F,

I have got a very good and reliable book with avian formulary for all common generally used drugs in my bookshelf at home. However, I'm at work now... I will check for you as soon as I'm back home (in about 3 hours).

Stephan.


----------



## 12788

Okay, here we are. 

"Ivermectin (10 mg/ml injectable solution) - dosage: 0.2 mg / kg intramuscular or subcutaneously or orally" (NB: this section refers to the treatment of endoparasites like worm infestations). 

"Also active against ectoparasites. Dilute 1:50 in propylene glycol, 1.0 ml / kg oral or percutaneous administration." (NB: this refers to the treatment of ectoparasites e.g. mites).

Source: British Small Animal Veterinary Association, BSAVA Manual of Wildlife Casualties, Avian Formulary, ©2003.

Hope this helps. Stephan


----------



## spirit wings

Bella_F said:


> Hi Spirit wings,
> 
> Today I had a lot of confusion and upset feelings about this ivermectin treatment the vet gave me, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are?
> 
> The concentration of the ivermectin given to me is 10mg/ml (1% concentration), which is for cattle, the vet told me. I'm pretty certain you're meant to use Ivermectin concentration for sheep, not cattle, so I double checked with the vet.
> 
> She sounded like she didn't really know, as she evaded answering really simple questions, like what body weight is the dose based on, and how much is ` a unit' of the 1% ivermectin. I felt a bit off after the phone call, because she seemed evasive and weird about it all.
> 
> So I rang two avian vets, but they won't help me at all . They wouldn't tell me if the dose `sounded about right' or even whether the dose would kill it But they also were extremely negative about the dose I had been given, but refused to give me the reason. I pressed and pressed but they winded up saying they didn't want legal problems and were not going to help me.
> 
> So where I am at, is I don't know if the dose is right. The vet who gave it to me says it is right, but I want a second opinion and I don't know who to ask.


Hi Bella, sorry I can not be of more help with the ivomec, but I will just tell you what instructions I used for flock treatment of pigeons

ivomec 0.08% solution
3 tablespoons per gallon of water for one day
repeat 21 days later.

that is all I know for domestic birds, so using in food is going to be different.


----------



## Pidgey

Most of the avian species get anywhere from 0.2 to 0.4 milligrams of actual medicine per kilogram of bird. The larger birds tend towards the higher dosage concentrations on the formulary, by the way. If your bird actually only weighs 1/5 kilogram (200 grams), then you're looking at one very small dose with the horse serum that you've got. The math would work out like this:

Dosage in milligrams = 0.2 mg/kg * 0.2 kg = 0.04 mg

Dosage per your concentration = 0.04 mg / 10 mg/mL = 0.004 mL

...which you can't effectively measure with the equipment that you've named without dilution. You'd have to dilute it depending on what the smallest amount that you can accurately measure. If that were one milliliter (mL) of the original soluation and you wanted to give an actual one milliliter dose, you'd have to dilute it 1:249 (10 / 0.04 = 250). If you can accurately measure less out, then you can make less up. If you're going to start with the higher dosage (0.4 milligrams per kilogram of bird) then you'd essentially half the dilution.

By the way, if the stuff is oil based, you might have to use something other than water to dilute it like the Propylene Glycol mentioned.

Pidgey


----------



## spirit wings

also, don't mean to confuse, but treating mites and blood suckers/internal parasites is when you use ivomec, on feather lice they live off the scuff and feather parts, so they need a pyrethrum spary or dip to get rid of them.


----------



## altgirl35

oh boy, a lot of confusion going on here both my books seem to vary from one another and it get confusing because it need to be diluted in these formulas, and i don't want to give the wrong advice or contridct anyone here. i would call the local rehabbers explain whats going on tell them what you have all they can do is say no.
the .2 mls or .2 ccs or .2 units sounds like a proper dosage to me if it's undiluted.
we have to remember that much of the time birds take a higher mg per kg with many medications because of thier high metabolism


----------



## Bella_F

Thanks so much for all the information and tips, its helps SO much. I'll need a little bit of time to absorb this information carefully, but it sounds like I need to drastically dilute this dose of ivermectin, using Propylene Glycol.


----------



## Pidgey

I got the dosage information out of the avian formulary published in CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE by Harrison. It (that formulary) can be access online at the IVIS site.

Pidgey


----------



## jameswaller

*endangered feathered friend*



Bella_F said:


> This morning I did my usual walk to find the little crow, to give him some food. He's usually in the park or somewhere near by, and I find him by following his cries.
> 
> We had some really heavy rain last night and this morning, and when I went looking for him it was still raining. I found him a little off course, crying loudly under a tree in a person's yard about a block away. He was *really* crying and obviously distressed. The windows of the house were open so I thought it would be rude to just throw food over the fence for the crow. So I called him and watched him for a while, and tried to coax him up onto the fence.
> 
> Then the lady from the house came out with a broom and started banging it loudly on the ground to scare it, and yelled at it to shoo it away. The little crow became really scared and distressed, and tried to fly away. But its wings are soaked and it couldn't get any elevation. It kind of tumbled & fluttered around crying out.
> 
> Anyway, I called out to the lady and told her all about the crow, where it lives, and how it doesn't have any parents and it needs to be fed. She and her husband, though not bird lovers, were ok with that and invited me around to feed it. I stayed in their yard as long as I could without being impolite, gave him some food, and told them that he'll probably flutter around their yard and cry until he's dry again. They seemed ok about it, a bit coolish, but ok.
> 
> Its stopped raining now; do you think he'll dry off enough to fly again soon? He's trying to get up to the top of a bin, which would allow him to get onto the lower branches of a big tree. He'll be right if can make it to those branches, but when I left him he couldn't even flutter to the top of the bin.
> 
> Any ideas? Of course I've thought about catching him, but theres no cats or dogs around and he's not in immediate danger, he just needs to dry off. I don't know long that will take though...


with all do respect,treat him like a pigeon,mom is not coming back anytime soon,.he does require caring for,.a bird that does not fly will die,soon,/wet-sooner,...if possible capture and keep in a box in a quiet part of the house/warmth/water/food,kinda all the same,.ie baby pigeon-this is an excellent website for info,..hope the little guy makes it..sincerely james waller [email protected]


----------



## Bella_F

Hi James, Sadly I didn't know him during the phase when he was a helpless thing on the ground that could be just picked up; he turned up in my yard a month ago, when he was already flying and was unapproachable. If I'd known better, I might have somehow caught him on the first day or two of knowing him, but at that stage I wasn't sure that he was orphan. It took me days to be sure, as he was hanging around a pair of adult crows. I guess I was just hoping he was theirs and everything was rosy, but it wasn't. He got chased out of my yard by other birds, and has been living in a park across the road ever since.

He's made it on his own for over a month; he is so smart, but I hurt for him because he starts every day, and ends every day, with trying to join another crow family. He's been like this for the entire time- obsessed with the other crows, and yearning to be with them. They let him sit with them, but his begging is never rewarded, and when they soar away, he is not quite strong enough to follow yet, though he tries like heck.

Its always been my goal to feed him up enough so that he will be strong enough to have his dream come true...to be with the other crows. But he's not there yet, and I don't know if I can do enough to help him. But I have to try.


----------



## Jay3

spirit wings said:


> also, don't mean to confuse, but treating mites and blood suckers/internal parasites is when you use ivomec, on feather lice they live off the scuff and feather parts, so they need a pyrethrum spary or dip to get rid of them.


That's true. Unless they live off the birds blood, then the ivomec wouldn't affect them, would it? And feather mites don't. The bird probably needs to be dipped.


----------



## spirit wings

Jay3 said:


> That's true. Unless they live off the birds blood, then the ivomec wouldn't affect them, would it? And feather mites don't. The bird probably needs to be dipped.


that is correct.


----------



## 12788

Sorry, but it seems that bird mites do live off the birds blood as well... Hence, both kind of treatments (pyrethrum and / or ivermectin) would be sufficient.

http://www.birdmites.org/mites.html

Stephan


----------



## spirit wings

rook said:


> Sorry, but it seems that bird mites do live off the birds blood as well... Hence, both kind of treatments (pyrethrum and / or ivermectin) would be sufficient.
> 
> http://www.birdmites.org/mites.html
> 
> Stephan


yes mites do but not feather LICE.


----------



## 12788

Yes, sorry, of course, you are right... 

...although Bella_F wanted to treat mites not lice, wasn't she? There seems to be some overlap in the treatment as I have just learned from another website????

"Ivermectin type medicine: Is a remarkable product given in the drinking water which not only kills lice, mites and flies, but also roundworms and blood parasites. It is perfectly safe to use in breeding birds and during the moult. Ivermectin kills those ecto-parasites which live on the bird, suck blood or skin scale, but it does not kill quill mites."

"Appropriate insectide treatment: Is a natural insecticide (permethrin is extracted from daisy flowers) powder which is mixed in water and sprayed throughout the aviary or used as a bath to "break" the life cycle of the ecto-parasites. Its residual action kills the eggs, nymphs and those parasites which do not suck blood/eat skin scale (e.g. quill mites) nor live on the bird (e.g. red mite, biting fly, mosquitoes). It is used the day Ivermectin type medicine is given to break heavy infestations of ecto-parasites."

Stephan


----------



## spirit wings

rook said:


> Yes, sorry, of course, you are right...
> 
> ...although Bella_F wanted to treat mites not lice, wasn't she? There seems to be some overlap in the treatment as I have just learned from another website????
> 
> "Ivermectin type medicine: Is a remarkable product given in the drinking water which not only kills lice, mites and flies, but also roundworms and blood parasites. It is perfectly safe to use in breeding birds and during the moult. Ivermectin kills those ecto-parasites which live on the bird, suck blood or skin scale, but it does not kill quill mites."
> 
> "Appropriate insectide treatment: Is a natural insecticide (permethrin is extracted from daisy flowers) powder which is mixed in water and sprayed throughout the aviary or used as a bath to "break" the life cycle of the ecto-parasites. Its residual action kills the eggs, nymphs and those parasites which do not suck blood/eat skin scale (e.g. quill mites) nor live on the bird (e.g. red mite, biting fly, mosquitoes). It is used the day Ivermectin type medicine is given to break heavy infestations of ecto-parasites."
> 
> Stephan


I should of found the info and cut and pasted it, but was too lazy to look for it, ...thanks for doing it.


----------



## Bella_F

That's great information, all of you- thanks so much for your help, you guys are so knowledgeable with this and I appreciate every word you write.

I have no way of knowing if he has lice or mites or both, which actually makes me feel less inclined to try to dose him with ivermectin right now. His feathers have `holes' in them, and some damage that could be due to scratching and pecking ,or scrambling around in trees looking for bugs to eat. He forages all day for insects; he must get a few because I can't get him to eat from me more than twice a day.

The good news is I think he's going through a moult right now. That will help a lot, as his current feathers are too short. I can't wait to see the transformation! 

I'm so proud of him for making it a whole month so far.


----------



## Mindy

I just read this thread, I'm actually really curious on what happened to the crow. Bella, I really can't believe, that you hear a bird CRYING for help for days, and you don't take it home. I have a pet starling and he is the best pet I have ever had. He was crying in my chicken coup and it took me about 3 minutes to decide to bring it in my home. Not 3 weeks. min


----------



## Bella_F

Hi Mindy,

Tell me about it, I am full of regrets, but also very happy that he is six months old now, alive and well. His major flight feathers have taken a long time to molt; his tail has just molted (looking beautiful, and improving his flight dramatically). His wing feathers will probably take another 2 months to completely molt. I really want these ones to grow properly, so I I'm going to continue my feeding regime 3 times a day over the winter until he's tip top condition.

Most of his behavior at this age seem to revolve around building skills for becoming part of the local flock. He's becoming more competitive, fighting for his food a bit more, flying and roosting with them. I think he seems like a happy, lively bird; even though it was probably a pretty dumb way to care for a fledgling, it was also probably his only chance at living wild and free in the long term. A carer would not have released him with such poor feathers, and by 8 months of age, it would have been hard on him to be released. He is a personable bird too, and I fear that he would have been tamed and then killed as a non-releasable bird, as usually happens in these cases.

I dunno, I guess I'm just happy he's made it; what a miracle he is.


----------

