# Best of the best



## re lee

If you had a choice of the best racing homers in the world. What would you choose and why That line. And what would make that line better for you then you already have Or will be getting.


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## upcd

*Colors*

I like colors. I guess I am into genes. But for racers I skip the color part and go for who could get home fast. I don't what line that would be.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Best of the Best !!*

Good Robert,

I get a chance to express my preferences !   

My girlfriends were, and now my wife, are blonde.
My dog of choice is a Rottweiler.
My horse of choice is the Thoroughbred.

And when it comes to racing pigeons, the Ludo Claessens have set the Gold Standard. I own some lines down from the "President" and "Super Champion" for crossing purposes, but when it comes down to a long, or hard, bad weather, or smash race, I know who will be in the clock. They just won't quit !

And talk about beautiful !  

Check out Mr. Ripple, and some of his family !!!  

http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html


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## Happy

Super question, I'm sure there are super Racers over seas Belgium, Holland, etc., but I would have to go with what I have "Seen & Know".... Would obtain from Art Hees & Ed Lorenz. Both Flyers do SUPER at the Short-Med.-& Long. 125mi. through 600mi. "on the Day of Toss". Lorenz has his own family of "updated" Stassarts & Hees flys Short Face (His own family) "updated" with Verheyes... Lorenz & Hees were of the best in the San Fernando Valley, Ca for SOOOOOO Many yrs. & now Hees is still at the top in Florida!! They didn't just jump to the FAD $$$$ pigeons that so many do. They just updated there own familys & fly super at "ANY DISTANCE" with little change as possible to there Strains & Not Mob Flyers, multiple ClubFlyers. Simply put, the Best from California, & now Hees right at the top in Florida........They are also Beautiful birds in the loft. 
Colors - For me I would stick to Hard Colors. Blue Checks, Dark Checks, Blue Bars, Slate, Opels, & a little Darker Reds that I knew didn't flight whip etc.. If I wanted Real colors, I'd get Show Homers/Racers. No pigeons in the world are a Beautiful as they are. If I ever stopped Racing I'd have them. they can still Loft Fly well & have all the Best in Color, Patterns, Type, Tame, etc.... Just my Opinion...... Happy


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## re lee

Stassarts are a old line family. About like bastin and sion. Where in other countries that name has faded. Thet do well at the 150 plus to say 600. Defintly looking back they seem to carry the dragoon line. showing around the eye cere. to me any way. And the belgium strains carried down from dragoon and antwerps in the development. Good to here some people are still baseing that line. Have not seen much stassarts in over 20 years around this area. And I still think right here in america there are just as many good birds as other countries. But perhaps not managed as well. But with the stakes in the money races climbing. I see a great future in the racing sport. As family line will be built that can consistantly compete. We did it with most all breeds of show birds. Now America has some of the best show birds in the world. Its time for the racers to grow to the top. Where the other countries will import from lines here And if you look Birds are scattered thru this large country That tests them perhaps harder Then several of the key countries do. Making the new line dependable.


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## halfwatt

I like bastine bloodline, seem to fly strong, have several friends that race that bloodline, have had very good results


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## SmithFamilyLoft

In all seriousness,

I question how anyone can really say they own a Bastin, Sion, or Stassart blood lines. The masters who created those birds were dead when I was a kid in the 50's. Every breeder who has selected the pairings since then, as put his mark on those birds. I venture that these old masters would not recognize the birds carrying their name.

The other point, is even if these birds were carefully selected, and line bred in individual cages over the decades, they were birds that won in the forty's and fifty's. Champions of fifty, sixty years ago, are very old news.

Champion pigeons, horses, race cars, or even humans of 20 generations ago, simply could not compete with today's champions. If that is not so, then you are saying that no improvement has been made in fifty years of selective breeding. 

If the above masters were alive today, flying their birds of yesteryear, with the same system they used way back when, they would be at the bottom of the race sheet today. If you want to win today, you need to secure winning families, of today. And strive to constantly improve and refine those genes. Many a flier today, is using the same birds and methods that he used in the sixtys or 70's. They left their winning ways and past glories, in the past. Neither their birds, breeding, or methods kept up with the competition. They keep doing the same old thing, year after year, and wonder why they keep getting the same old results. You are either improving, and moving forward, or standing still. If you stand still, you will be left behind.

One more thing, the perfect racing pigeon and system, has not been developed or invented yet. Every year, I look, hope, and pray, for that one YB I raise, that will take my birds to a whole new level. In racing pigeons, good is simply not good enough. Many lofts, are packed with "good" pigeons. Now "Exceptional", "World Class", "Champions Champion", that is the stuff legends are made of.


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## re lee

I have to agree with your points on old strain lines And carry it forward to even the new lines. Most new lines have a older base that they were built off. Each line when bought by another person. Its that person that develops the branch line extention. But looking back at race horses. The modern race horse. does not run faster then the horses of the thirties They are just trained in a more modern fashion. The base speed of a homing pigeon. was based at 45 miles per hour. then add tail wind deduct head and cross winds. to come up with speed. Now that has not been improved on much. But refined quality carried forward maintained to stay at the top That has let the birds stay within a continued line of progress. Thats in the breeding loft. Selection of finding the balanced pairiring of the birds. And yes raiseing just 1 or perhaps 3 really good birds in a season. Is a plus. Now I do not look at the birds as world class. But when I say its a good bird. I mean it can carry forward. a workable useable bird that can win or improve a line. As lines are based on a small amount of birds. And Just 1 bird can be the key to a winning family line when used right. I think the idea. Is to devlop the eye some call it the minds eye. towards what you need to be sucessful in breeding for race or show. Every breeder no matter what they start out with. To be sucsessful leaves there mark on how they bred the birds. How they trained the birds recieved there affect also. And there is no great method . But there are sucsessful methods that work for many. I think if the birds are bred good taken care of not over crowded. They will have a stronger urge to get home. And winners of the past are in the past. They helped bring a line forward then And winners today help keep it going forward. Keeping a viable vigor thru select breeding is a large must . Thats why we look at the cross and see the heating up performance . So why not build it into the line After all each loft is really different. If the birds did not come diractly from the strain breeder. They are not fully that select strain. But base lined to it. So even say you raise Ludlos. You know a few others baseing off that line to. That are key breeders of competitive birds. Getting from them keeps the line going but allows for the cross production of a family line. Or yet research back to the family line original foundation. say that line can be introduced back to improve agin the line. Like someone started with janssen and wegge birds forty years ago. built a winning line. became known as as such and such. We now the line base was the 2 mentioned strains. We know janssens had been bred down from a wegge line also now we find the wegge line had reheated the future line. though its far removed in the past. perhaps by taking a janssen based bird of good quality we cross it to the line showin its been done in the past with good results. Test that breeding through races. put that back into the breeding loft. watch the improved performance. BECAUSE. WE you are starting to build our own line of birds. based off past methods of the select breeder. As all the crosses of the past should have carried forward by someone. They should have been improved on. So reintroducing along the base line. May very well hit that improved vigor. and key improvement. Well this book is getting to long. Just a thought.


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## whitesnmore

*HUH???? What????*

Wow!!!! where were we at?  You all lost me!!!!! Slow Down Please


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## Skyeking

Warren,

I enjoyed the pictures of your pigeons, especially the Ludo hen, direct daughter of Silver Boy, unusual posture. She is standing almost straight up.

Thanks for sharing!

Treesa


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## Happy

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In all seriousness,
> 
> I question how anyone can really say they own a Bastin, Sion, or Stassart blood lines. The masters who created those birds were dead when I was a kid in the 50's. Every breeder who has selected the pairings since then, as put his mark on those birds. I venture that these old masters would not recognize the birds carrying their name.
> 
> The other point, is even if these birds were carefully selected, and line bred in individual cages over the decades, they were birds that won in the forty's and fifty's. Champions of fifty, sixty years ago, are very old news.
> 
> Champion pigeons, horses, race cars, or even humans of 20 generations ago, simply could not compete with today's champions. If that is not so, then you are saying that no improvement has been made in fifty years of selective breeding.
> 
> If the above masters were alive today, flying their birds of yesteryear, with the same system they used way back when, they would be at the bottom of the race sheet today. If you want to win today, you need to secure winning families, of today. And strive to constantly improve and refine those genes. Many a flier today, is using the same birds and methods that he used in the sixtys or 70's. They left their winning ways and past glories, in the past. Neither their birds, breeding, or methods kept up with the competition. They keep doing the same old thing, year after year, and wonder why they keep getting the same old results. You are either improving, and moving forward, or standing still. If you stand still, you will be left behind.
> 
> One more thing, the perfect racing pigeon and system, has not been developed or invented yet. Every year, I look, hope, and pray, for that one YB I raise, that will take my birds to a whole new level. In racing pigeons, good is simply not good enough. Many lofts, are packed with "good" pigeons. Now "Exceptional", "World Class", "Champions Champion", that is the stuff legends are made of.


Warren, I have always enjoyed your writtings till this one. 1st I don't think this reply of yours has much to do with the original question. But want to let you know that I did fly in the 50's, & can certainly recognize these Old Out Of Date Strains that you seem to call them that all the New Names Strains have come from. If you will look at my 1st response to the Original question you'll see that I talk of UPDATED OLDER STRAINS. You may not have heard of Ed Lorenz with his Modern day Stassarts or Art Hees (now in Fla.) with his strain of Short Face that is originally Bastin that has been updated with Verheye's, or Freddie Riveria with his 60'S & 70'S Bekaerts that have done so well in Calif. & Floridia, but would suggest ya look up there CURRENT records with these Out Of Date Strains!!!. I don't know many of your Greats in the east, but know there are super guys around there that fly the Old Strains such as HVR's that probably need NO improvement. Also you apparently don't race the long ones? I believe that the 600mi. "DAY BIRDS" of the 40's 50's etc. would be with the best you have come up with today (given the newer racing methods) at that distance!!..... I think your right that the newer strains have an advantage at the Short Races that these 300mi. $$$races, Cell Phone, Computer, Generation is turning out, but not at the 500mi. thru 600mi.. It seems to me that you might have fallen into the High Price Pigeon Sellers Syndrome. Looking for names like The Presedent, Super Champ., Silver Boy, Super Boy, Wonder Boy, & this pigeon Won this much $$$$, instead of how many races it actually was in the top 10 of the Combine/Concourse for this many yrs....... Certainly there are improvements in most all Racing Pigeons, but the best are guys that have raced every yr. Old Birds & Young Birds, & improved there birds & methods with the Races being the Judge, not how much $$$ they won in one or two Young Bird races.... Last week a guy here (50yr. Flyer) just won a 1,300ypm 470mi. race with his Hanssen, Wegge, Bekaert, Sion old family with many backups of the same family. Last yr. I won an Overall in YB's 70+ mem. 860 birds with a Bricoux, Bastin, Bekaert, Osman, Sion, etc. cross. Probably should tell her she's doesn't have a proper new generation name... I know this is a bit of sarcasim on my part, but I'm sure you know by now ya touched a nerve.... Happy


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## relofts

Ok,

Lets see about my favorites, that is a hard one to claim. Like Happy I like some of the older proven strains, but I have found location has a lot to do with what a person does well with and flies well with.

If I were still residing in Washington state you would get me away from the Old Janssen Lines, Ganus Janssen lines, Meuleman 176 Frill, HeckenKlak, Hofkin, Witoger lines, Van Loon, Ver Bruggen, I can't really pick one in particular as it has always been a team effort and my team as a entity have done very well.

Now that I live here in California I can say that I fly the Old Janssen Line, Ganus Janssen line, Meuleman 176 Frill, Witoger, and my always faithful Witoger line, and Van Loon's which I am still prooving but so far seem to be competitive. I can't pick a single family though because like I said it depends on your location, your distances and where you want to be competive at, I myself like to fly at all distances and I like to be competitive at all distances and I find it takes a little different pigeon for the speed, the distance sometimes, as well as the weather, but a Janssen base is always a good start. I don't currently only any of the Beckert family but they have always flown very well for me in the past when we first started out as well as the Jankoski Janssens which were really nice, and then there were the Touniers that were always a good cross here in the hot valley heat with the speed races, well I guess I am not help because I am just no help with making a decission. 

Lets see to describe each of the birds I have listed and from my observation.

Janssen - Speed, short, middle, some long from the original janssen lines.
Meuleman 176 - Consistant, middle, long, endurance, tough weather, dependable
Witoger - Speed, endurance, short, middle, long.
Van Loons - short, middle, consistant, endurance.
HeckenKlak - Short, middle, long, consistant, speed, endurance 
Hofkin - Short, middle, consistant, crosses well into Janssen family for futurity races in the north west, when weather is not always at perfection.
Witoger 720 - Short, Middle, Long, speed, tougher race, all around pigeon and have always flown very well for us.
Beckeart - speed, short, middle, hot weather, consistant
Jankoski Janssen - speed, short, middle, hot weather, consistant
Tournier - Middle, long, speed, consistant.
Ver Bruggen - Short, middle, consistant, speed, hot weather, or tough weather, good all around pigeon.

Don't know if I missed any here but I just guess I can't make a decission like that, and besides that I know for a fact I have more lines then that in my loft, but that is the basic, I would have to include to much to cover them all, pigeons now a days have just been perfected to such an art it is unbelieveable and it is just not easy to assign a tag to any, best thing to do is find the top flyers in a area and see what they are doing well with.

A breed I can't fly is a Lean Boer, I can't even spell it let alone fly it, I never was able to get them to perform for me what so ever, you would not get me to fly them for nothing, yet other flyers swear by them, it must be in the handling.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Happy said:


> ..... I talk of UPDATED OLDER STRAINS. You may not have heard of Ed Lorenz with his Modern day Stassarts or Art Hees (now in Fla.) with his strain of Short Face that is originally Bastin that has been updated with Verheye's, or Freddie Riveria with his 60'S & 70'S Bekaerts that have done so well in Calif. & Floridia, but would suggest ya look up there CURRENT records with these Out Of Date Strains!!!..... I believe that the 600mi. "DAY BIRDS" of the 40's 50's etc. would be with the best you have come up with today (given the newer racing methods) at that distance!!..... I think your right that the newer strains have an advantage at the Short Races that these 300mi. $$$races, Cell Phone, Computer, Generation is turning out, but not at the 500mi. thru 600mi.... but the best are guys that have raced every yr. Old Birds & Young Birds, & improved there birds & methods with the Races being the Judge........ Last week a guy here (50yr. Flyer) just won a 1,300ypm 470mi. race with his Hanssen, Wegge, Bekaert, Sion old family with many backups of the same family......Last yr. I won an Overall in YB's 70+ mem. 860 birds with a Bricoux, Bastin, Bekaert, Osman, Sion, etc. cross. Probably should tell her she's doesn't have a proper new generation name... I know this is a bit of sarcasim on my part, but I'm sure you know by now ya touched a nerve.... Happy


Hello Happy !


Many good points Happy, I might suggest that Ed Lorenz, Art Hees, Freddie Riveria, the other gent you mentioned, and yourself, are flying pigeons which have backgrounds related to those long gone birds, created by the masters. But, in reality, they and you, have created your own familys, blood lines, strain, what have you.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, afterall, every pigeon alive today has ancestors that were alive in the 1800's and early 1900's. My very fine, perhaps meaningless point, is once a "family" or "strain" is placed into the hands of another breeder, it soon becomes a "Lorenz", "Hees", "Riveria" or a "Happy" bloodline. Even if very strict line breeding methods are used. 

Add to this the fine points that Ellen made at RELofts. Your geography, loft management, loft, training methods, etc. etc. will have a huge impact on what bloodlines will work well for you. I dare say, that the same "family" of birds, divided up between two different lofts, at opposite ends of the country, under different management, breeding styles etc. In just a few generations, will look, feel, and perform differently. Regardless of the fact, that there were similar ancestors, certainly after 5, 10, 15 + generations, they will NOT be the same birds. Regardless what "label" was orginally placed on them, ie. Sion, 720, etc.

You may also be correct about 500 & 600 mile day birds. Good, bad, right or wrong, it is the YB races, which get the most attention, and the most participation. The "One Loft" racing concept, appears to be the future, and where the money is. Breeding the YB, which can win that single 300-400 mile race, and collect that $10,000 to $200,000+ prize is where the attention is, and going to continue to be.

My only point, if there was one,   , is if you are starting out, or starting over again, go to a current winning loft and family, be it a "Lorenz" a "Hees" a "Happy" or "RELofts", etc. etc. and secure birds from a family winning today, regardless of what name was placed on their base. I want to know about the parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grand parents etc. Not who their great-great-great-great-great-great grand father was. Who was "imported" as stock, and came from a loft who was friends with Mr. Sion etc.


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## re lee

We will find in belg, holland and such. Birds from the past Bred by breeders that have long since passed on. The base line strain name is for gotten. The name of the current breeder doing the winning is put on the birds. BECAUSE that person developed them to continue the winning in there own fashion. And winning birds are based off just a few key birds. Foundation is choice . Training and putting the desired needs into a family line. Yes high priced birds are becoming a key to resale. AND thats BAD. why. even these high dollar birds breed birds that will not improve or win a one bird race. So responsible breeders that will only sell or give a bird that can help the next person Would be a key person to trust to go to and find birds that improve a line. Every bird today would fall in the modern program. As that bird is bred now. But is it a winner a producer of winners. THat has to be tested. AND we know sometimes. Its the sister brother of winners that are the best for breeding winners. As they carry the gene line better to produce that winner. then the winning bird does sometimes. Even a loft of lower perfomers can be improved on. Its done all the time. Its slower in the start. But years down the road it shows. So I guess alot goes to the breeder. That sticks there program out and does not get into fads. As a lot of people do. rushing out to by the next line that has been doing the current wins. But staying with the breeding line that has been working for them. Maybe falling and new advancements are just needed. In one loft there can be several family lines. And all the birds will still fall in the base line. So out crossed lines can come from the same loft too.. A big challenge today is there seems to be more elctro magnetic storms. That are causeing top birds to get lost. Nature. is a condition that ways alot into the breeding of perfomers as racers. K days. have brought large amounts of birds being lost. Or very late returns. And It takes about 3 years of testing the birds to find the breeder birds of the future. By then there race record shows what they have done. So we find it takes years to build a line of birds. And then the old saying evey one wants to win. But knowing likes a winner. kicks in. Club members start to complain about the consistant winner. Check clocks. think of ways that person is cheating. And such. Istead of relizing the person. Must be doing something right in ther program That has brought better performance to there birds. All good birds come out of a solid breeding program. And they all become that breeders line. It just takes years And the eye to sucseed. A racing homer no matter the strain is still a racer. But the breeder has put his or hers mark on it THERE makes all the difference. Best of the best. is made in your loft. Someone elses best is theres. We all help and learn through shareing of the birds. And trying to develop our line. Birds today will bring the birds of the future. Maybe not so different from past birds. But managed right at least as good. The breeder is the artist. the bird is the painting. And every good artist is remembered. and people want a good painting . No matter what the price. So old line strains live on in memory. And new lines with new names. Will become old. But remembered. Will your name be there. Its up to you. Your mark on the birds will be the stroke of the brush. And perhaps 50 years from now. people will still remember.


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## relofts

Great Posts Everyone,

I can say that I have a family of birds that I have crossed together and given to both new flyers and friends to compete with and these birds have performed at all lofts so far, and yes they were given to them because I wanted them to be proven, problem is how long does the Sire and Dam live for after proving the family once purchased, most families of birds I find you get if actually proven are coming from a little older breeder if the entire process has been went through although you can get lucky, I purchased a 720 Witoger bird mated to a hen down from Assured Silver, Topo, Super Crack 699 and 0005 both bred from Fred Smeltzer the following year after I purchased my cock bird down from the Witoger 720 line or maybe it was the same year well anyway a brother won the Las Vegas race for Fred and this was a full brother, well mine still had to be prooven as a breeder, I flew the offspring as young birds, flew them as 1 year olds, and then as 2 year olds and all have performed exceptional, I have now bred from his youngsters and completed the same process, I have put them with different mates, I have given them to new flyers, I have given them to senior flyers to compete in their loft to see how they have performed, I then relocated to California from Washington and the process started over, and they have passed all the tests, problem is now they are both 6 years old "99" banded and it really takes a long time to proove a family of birds, you can get lucky and the person can be very good that you get them from, we were lucky and Fred Smeltzer provided us with some exceptional bred pigeons he is a very good breeder and handler of pigeons, but you know I think any family can do good if bred correctly and if the handling conditions are what that breed will respond to, not to take any credit away from Fred as he has done an exception job with the line he created, or that is my opinion.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Ellen,

You are being a bit modest. Fred Smeltzer is a legend in the United Pigeon Combine, here is South Centra Pa. If I understood you correctly, and you own a direct daughter of 720, then you own a very special pigeon indeed.

The birds you mention in the family tree, are a who's who of racing pigeons. They are some of the best Janssens ever imported into this country. Mike Ganus and Fred Smeltzer must have been closely sharing notes, and birds. 
I made a short visit to Fred's loft, to pick up a bird once, and he has some collection.  

Story is when Fred flew in the UPC combine, 100+ lofts and thousands of birds, he would win 1st and 2nd combine, week after week after week. Some guys quit, rather then face his birds in a race again. Guys still shake in their boots !!! at the mention of his name !!

Personally, I would be breeding that bird back to some outstanding sons. And then to her grand son's, but that is me.


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## relofts

Warren,

Yes what I have from Fred is exceptional blood lines and the cock has been bred to most every hen in my loft including daughters as has the hen been bred back and I also purchased a sister to him and a half brother to him, the hen that I spoke of is also in that same statistic and has proven her self with many cocks. We were luck and I feel Fred is an exceptional breeder as well as handler and he is a honest breeder, he spoke highly of the family, he prooved the family and then we had him send some of them to us, and I feel he provided us with some of his what I feel to be best of the best, we have had them since youngsters 1999 and wouldn't hesitate to compete them at any level or distance.

By the way I was trying to be careful with my words here, I am not trying to make people think I am running an add and get myself in trouble, and just so all know I am not related, nor do I receive anything for the comments I have made, I am speaking from my personal experience, I am very cautious about saying to much to cause some to think I am trying to sell someones birds as you can tell, been there done that.

Ellen


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## re lee

Sometimes it good when you find a hen and cock that really click to remate them over and over. And build off there young birds. Then spread the line that way. And i noticed the story about people dropping from the races. to avoid the let down of a loss/, Thats what happens when you have done the work. bred them right. People shy away and try to figure ways to not race aginst there stiif competitors. To the point of banning them from the clubs. Which is sad But true. And Ellen I have long sence Study family lines. Have been impressed on the janssen line. They have helped many a flyer trhu out the world build a foundation line of winners. And there birds were not pushed for the first 2 years of age. But brought up slowly to mature into great flyers. And as proven they can go the distance the 600 miler. Just the brothers chose not to push there birds. But did show the world that they are not just short to mid distance winners. they can fly all distances well. And most all top line family birds can do the same. Because someone took that time to build along some kind of line. taken well care of some birds can breed for 12 to 15 years in homers. So testing and breeding still has time to build a line. Your on your way from waht I have read. And whats good YOU help others. A plus there. You to Warren. I know you have started poeple out right too.


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## relofts

Re Lee,

Yes the Janssen brothers flew their birds out to the distant with their Strains, I flew mine out to the 650 last old birds and took in the combine 1st and 3rd, the sire of the first place was my Witoger 720 line, and the Dam was down from a Strawberry Janssen hen imported to Canada by Clwyd Lofts via Wales from the Janssen Family, this pair also bred me my Oregon State winner a couple of years ago as well.

My 3rd place in the combine winner for the same race was down from a half brother to the one above with the Sire GFL 25 and Witoger 720 line and the Dam was purchased from Horst Hackamer some years back she is a Mottled recessive hen with Green eyes and is Meuleman down from Bismarck, Alice, and Grant another good blood line I think.

Ellen


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## whitesnmore

*Family Lines*

If I can jump in for a second, I am a new flyer this year and have started with 2 family lines. One out of a very sucessful loft in Texas and one out of another sucessful loft in PA. Since I have my first race in August should these families be treated as separate lines for breeding for the long haul and breed only best to best or if the basket shows that both families have good enough racers should I cross into each other in a couple to see what it produces? All of these breeders have good records or come from very good bloodlines if this helps.
Ken


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## relofts

Ken,

It is good to see you on here again, sorry I have not emailed you lately, I kind of got busy there for a while and now am trying to get back into the swing of things.

Regarding your questions, it depends on the breed of pigeon, the distances they excel at, the type of races they fly at, and what you are looking to get from your team.

Short to Short or Speed to Speed - Will most likely develope a speed bird, they work great in blow homes and such.

Short speed to long durability - Will most likely develope a middle distant bird for you.

Long durability to - Long Durability - Will most likely develop a long durability bird that is consistant in it's speed.

Now this is not always true, sometime the youngsters will take on trait or another and sometimes neither, if you know all your races are going to be speed and blow homes you want to breed for the type and size of the bird to be able to fly the race they will fly. If you are flying hard head wind races with possible weather involved you are going to want to breed for a more muscle, consistant, and durable bird. It is usually best to prove the family in your area that they can fly the course and then think about crossing out to develope what you are looking for, sometimes there are people in the area that will help you to grade your pigeons for the area you are flying and it is good to get the suggestions, make sure that it is a loft that competes well and the person has been doing it for some years. There is always those times that none of this works and the birds just don't do well for you, you need to find a family that works well with your conditioning plans.

Ellen

Ps. Hope all is going well there with everything, let us know when you get a chance how your son is enjoying the club and all.


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## whitesnmore

*New Club Findings*

Ellen, 

Good Talking with you again. Alot has transpired since we talked last. Last week we had our club auction for our 250 mile YB race in Sept. I managed to get one of mine back but the other went for too much money. I did manage to aquire a Horst Hackmeyer Bird since he used to fly in our club before going to Florida. Very nice Yb and a hen I believe. Dylan is excited about our move this weekend as we will be moving all the birds and building a new loft from ground up. He doesnt usually get to help with the hammer and nailing around the house but I have made an exception for the loft as I dont think the pigeons will care if something is off a bit. The birds have been on lock down and will get their first taste of freedom 7-10 days after the loft is up. Then the training program will be slowly implimented. Plan to let the younger ones out first in hopes the older ones will follow suit and not get as many fly aways. I would have held up on the breeding if I had known the closing was going to be this late but it was pushed back at the last minute. Our club flies a South/SoutWest course and vary from 100-500 miles with alot of 300-500 races. I have 2 families and one is the Sprinters and the others excell at the 250-350 mile range. By crossing these families do I take a chance of slowing the sprinters down more than increasing the speed in the others? Would I best be served in waiting until this seasons race sheets are completed to determine what options I may have? If it seems I am anxious it is because this is true. I wish I could speed everything up and look into the future to see how all the different matings will come out  Patience was never one of my strong points. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Ken


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Parental Lines*

Hello K & D,

As with everything else concerning pigeons, you will find all kinds of ideals and advice. I will throw my little two cents into the pot, and perhaps after awhile, you may have enough two cents to buy a cup of coffee.  

If it were me, and I was starting out fresh with two different family lines, and a first season coming up, I would follow this line of thinking.

Fly the offspring from these two lines, and keep good detailed records. Winning is always fun, but in reality, in your first year, I would focus on how the different birds compete againest other birds in my own loft. 

In other words, the measuring stick I would use, is the other birds in my own loft, and not so much the birds in the other lofts. If you have a particular bird for instance, that is always your first bird home, but he ends up ranking in the bottom half of the race sheet, then don't despair. Your loft management, training, or something else could be to blame.

After the race season is over, your results and records, should speak for themselves. The cream of your 2005 race team, you will have to take a long hard look at. Only then, will you know what options you have to consider. Selecting birds for pairing, is a paper excersize, but don't neglect what your eyes tell you. 

Without seeing the final product, there may not be a real easy answer. My inclination would be to keep the lines seperate for a long term breeding program. When these two parental lines become closely bred, then I would experiment with crossing them and test the results. 

Ellen is correct, you need to test these lines, to see if they will work for you. Then you need to see if these two lines will even cross well.


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## whitesnmore

*Hey Warren*

Good Morning Sir,
Thank you for your imput. You and I have spoke on this several different occassions and it was not that I dont trust yoiur Judgement it is that I think it is always good to have other resources to glean from. I think I will probably keep both lines separate for at least the first 4-5 years before I try any crossing. I have looked at the pedigrees (I know thats only paper) but it looks like someone has crossed into the PA line at one time with the Janssens. So to some extent I feel confident that with the past out come not being negative (cause these birds seem to be very nice) it cant hurt to do it again with the right cross. My YB was one of only 4 birds (out of 30) at the club auction that brought 100.00 and the guy who bought her was very impressed with her. Talk about being a proud Grandpa  Oh my this sport is way too much fun. I cant wait to meet the guy who got me started in this all. By the way Warren, Did you get all your stuff from Val????? I could not believe all the "Extras" she included in my package. Listen folks if you havent got in on this deal yet you HAVE GOT TO. Check out my post on here under Resources titled Pigeon T-Shirts. She does this all to help out injured and sick birds and is truley as Sweetheart as Warren and I can atest to.
Ken


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## re lee

Take the average race Most birds start out flying together with the numbers. The less conditioned birds start to drag behind on down the road. Along with the slower flying birds. But still numbers create a drag to a point. Flight weather makes a big difference also. the rough weather birds birds to me that maintain a stronger frontal to buck the cross and head winds perfom better there. The stream lined bird. shorter winged more angled when opened will fall behind because it will not coast as well in the buck of a head or cross wind But a tail wind it it maintain the lead. But often a race is close just a few yards difference between 1 and 2 place. Hard races see a bigger distance in time of flight. As break away birds get home first not letting the group dictate the race. Less numbers changes the arc. No bird flies a direct line. But a left or right angle. And winds set the arc And the group sets the swing. Break away birds often will not arc out as far. Head winds you have the arc. And long or short distance breeding comes from All strains. You will raise birds that will perfom better at one distance then the other. Often in a money race you will see birds of both crossed to better the win. As we do not know on race day what the weather will be. Best bet is to breed towards raisin birds that have the will to get home at all costs. Because thats where the winners come from. The more the bird wants to get home the better it will. Edge as the natural or widow hood system. Birds were tricked to the egg the young bird or the hen. to want to come home faster. Young birds trained to feed think thers where they go to eat. A happy uncrowded loft drives the birds by its self. Though alot of people have stopped the single toss of there birds. This tests the homing instinct the want to get home alone Without the drag helping them find there way. And it does take more time on the toss. But seperates the the stronger willed birds. With todays computor clocks they can be used to see who came home first while you are out tossing the birds. I think this still helps the breeding program go forward By not seeing the luck birds that drag in with the lead birds then when its race time and the spread gets outs. You see them come home slower and slower.


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## hillfamilyloft

You Califronia flyers will remember some midwest birds flown by a man named Victor C Miller. I hope his birds are good because that is what is in my loft. Throw in a little Engels, original Janssens, and Calia Janssens and these might be pretty good. They are a bunch faster than the old Sions, I used to fly. Love to here more suggestions on the best. Always looking to add. I do here a lot about your Ludo birds. 
Randy


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## relofts

Randy,

It sounds as if though you have some very well known and very good blood lines, but like any pigeon flyer we seem to always be bringing in something else to try and perfect what we already have going.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> You Califronia flyers will remember some midwest birds flown by a man named Victor C Miller. I hope his birds are good because that is what is in my loft. Throw in a little Engels, original Janssens, and Calia Janssens and these might be pretty good. They are a bunch faster than the old Sions, I used to fly. Love to here more suggestions on the best. Always looking to add. I do here a lot about your Ludo birds.
> Randy


 Hello Randy,

Ellen is correct, many flyers are always looking for that magic bullet, which will propel them to the top. The answer may already be in the loft !  

Management, training, and loft position play an extremely important role. Any racing fancier worth their salt, would have to admit, that the best bloodlines in the world, in weak hands, will not fair well againest average stock, in a good loft position, and excellent loft management.

Having said that, I personally would rather have a loft full of excellent specimins from a single proven family, then a Heintz 57 approach. By that I mean, if you have a loft with a little of this, and a little of that, and you attempting to build a family around that, all I can say, is I hope you are in your 20's because, you will need 10 to 15 generations to sort it all out. I myself, chose to start with a single family where that 10 to 15 generation work has already been done.

Now, I can start from there and take this family where I wish, but to each his own.


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## hillfamilyloft

I here you on the proven line. I was fortunate to aquire 12 breeders off a local futurity flyer. He won 4th Snake River Challenge and 15 Vegas Crap shoot. A nestmate to The Engels bird was 3rd on the 225 leg of the Spirit of Colorado. Seven out of the twelve are Wonder/Miller birds, two granddaughters of the Miller Cock. A brother sister team with Almost Perfect two deap in the pedigree. Out of the remainder: one is Ganus Janssen from the Janssen Brothers, one is Engels from CBS, Two are Van Reets from Frank McLaughlin and the last is a Calia Janssen. I am keeping the Miller line somewhat pure and Mixing the Van Reets up with the remaining. I am thinking of linebreeding the Millers, keeping the Van Reets for sprinters, and maybe aquiring anoter Engels. Cross a few here and there. I had to cross the Van Reets initially because they were Brothers. I am thinking of breeding Uncle to niece with these two. This is what I have to work with. I could not pass up the deal. I will try and get two or three lines going and then experiment. Let me know what you think. I am new to the strain game. Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*True Beliver*



hillfamilyloft said:


> I here you on the proven line. I was fortunate to aquire 12 breeders off a local futurity flyer. He won 4th Snake River Challenge and 15 Vegas Crap shoot. A nestmate to The Engels bird was 3rd on the 225 leg of the Spirit of Colorado. Seven out of the twelve are Wonder/Miller birds, two granddaughters of the Miller Cock. A brother sister team with Almost Perfect two deap in the pedigree. Out of the remainder: one is Ganus Janssen from the Janssen Brothers, one is Engels from CBS, Two are Van Reets from Frank McLaughlin and the last is a Calia Janssen. I am keeping the Miller line somewhat pure and Mixing the Van Reets up with the remaining. I am thinking of linebreeding the Millers, keeping the Van Reets for sprinters, and maybe aquiring anoter Engels. Cross a few here and there. I had to cross the Van Reets initially because they were Brothers. I am thinking of breeding Uncle to niece with these two. This is what I have to work with. I could not pass up the deal. I will try and get two or three lines going and then experiment. Let me know what you think. I am new to the strain game. Randy


Randy,

Start with pretty pedigrees, but then let the basket be the judge. Sooner or later, the "STARS" will emerge, those are the ones that you should focus on. Human nature will want to tell you, No this one is from my best pair !! ( Most expensive  ) But, the basket rarely lies. One of the cheapest pigeons in my loft, which I paid $400 for, has produced diploma bird, after diploma bird. In my case, the basket is determining my breeding program, winners stay and the non preformers become pets for some new kid.

Believe me, it is very hard to part with a bird, you may have "invested"  , many thousands for. But, winners come from winners, most of the time, and not from pretty pedigrees. Out of 12 pairs, if preformance points to 2 or 3 pairs, then replace the others with proven preformers, and you will advance light years. Winners to winners.


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## re lee

Working on racers on a line .First is time. I would say It takes 3 years to see a bird thru. Why past lines somebirds perform better with age. Other Is Winners sometimes have a good young bird season but can not do the old bird as well. So as a yearling the start showing how they come in. The top performers enter the 3rd year as a true old bird. They were the best yearling performers. And then you have to check the brother sisters over all performance. As the may not have had the speed but out perfomed over all. They are the better future breeders. They can produce the future winers better. And as you have just 2 3 pair that produces the top birds build around them for the future breeders. As they have done better in raiseing More consistant birds. Todays homer has more problems then years past. More hawks more k days. solar magnetic storms. So loses sometimes relate to hawks and the sun plus weathe. So understanding flight conditions. Sets the need for hard lined birds as well the sprint and speed birds. In the breeding loft. Each family will prodauce that. so different strains is not the need if performance is recorded. In the building. I head and read And believe That if you have bred from a bird for 3 years and have not raised a bird better or as good .GET rid of it. If you have raised better birds get rid of it. MAKES good sence to me. As you have not bred a performer Or have raised better so you go forward with the better stock That you now have. I have known people that think if you just keep repairing you will find the proper mate. To get a win. Thats a waste. A good bird will show its worth within 3 years years hen or cock. The better bird will show it in 3 seasons of repairing Showing hen or cock is the producer. So its the keeper. When you hit a pair that throws top birds consider repairing To build numbers. to breed down from. As key birds once are gone. And a line is not built you loose that key. And go down hill. from there. I have seen people do this to. people wanted bird from a line they sold and sold. The key bird dies or you sell it. And then boom Its over you have to restart a program. The old saying keep the best get rid of the rest.Is a good saying to build on. In the loft birds that have won. or produced winners Stay. And this works with a 2 dollar bird as well as a 10.000 dollar bird. We start some where . Where we go is in the breeding loft. A 3 generation pedigree tells more truth then a long one. I have had peds that went back over 40 years. But What has the recent birds done, THAT my friend tell the truth. A great winner down the road in the ped means little If the others ahead of it did not get anything but a piece of paper. Buying young birds that have not been tested IS a chance, Breeders should have some kind of race record. Telling the story of what this bird has done. BUT just my 2 cents.


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## agoodbird

*best of best*

In my own racing , the best srain i ever had was pre-war vermeyens.i also liked bastins,van riels . i now have sions , trentons & gurnays.From reading on the all time greats,it looks like renne gurnay was the best ( hannsene foundation)


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## lawman

Are you looking for speed, medium distance or distance? I feel most bloodlines fall into one of these catigories. Some of the best speed birds I've got are down out of the famous 05 bloodlines. They are down threw his children and grandchildren; for example, the bloodlines of the Bond, famous 05 and 06, ect. 

Medium distance birds, Hofkens

long distance, Wegan, black giant, trentons.

most of my birds are ether straight or crossed out of these bloodlines to perform at the distances I want their young to perform at.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Ludo Claessens*



lawman said:


> Are you looking for speed, medium distance or distance? I feel most bloodlines fall into one of these catigories. Some of the best speed birds I've got are down out of the famous 05 bloodlines. They are down threw his children and grandchildren; for example, the bloodlines of the Bond, famous 05 and 06, ect.
> 
> Medium distance birds, Hofkens
> 
> long distance, Wegan, black giant, trentons.
> 
> most of my birds are ether straight or crossed out of these bloodlines to perform at the distances I want their young to perform at.


 I invested in a premium line of "All Distance" Birds. 100-500 miles. But, truth be told, 120 to 336 is what I fly Yb's. In the USA, they are still considered an "Exotic" strain. You have to be a little off to pay such a price, and endure such aggressive birds. They will fight you in the hand, and beat up your current birds, and take over the prime nest boxes. They are hard to handle, and head strong. Just what I like. Introduce a few into your loft, and you will soon learn what I am talking about !!


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## lawman

Sounds like Staff Van Reets, They fly very well crssed and pure.


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## hillfamilyloft

I have two Van Reet Cock breeders off of Mary and Vector crossed with Vic Miller birds. I am not impresses so far with their young when crossed back to Miller birds. I have lost three birds and two are from these birds. Can anyone suggest a cross that they have had good luck with? I thought I might get some purer Van Reet Blood to cross back to them. 

I am more a believer in performance than strain. I have three rounds off of two pair that are flying the best. One pair is an Engels / Miller cross. The other is Miller with a sister to the hen of the first pair. A nest mates of these hens was 15th Vegas Crap Shoot, another finished 9th in another futurity. The Engels cock nest mate was 3rd 200 miles Colorado Classic. All pedigrees have winners in their blood. The Miller Cock, Den 584-De Dikki etc. Recent winners, one or two generations removed, not two or three decades. 

What are your thoughts on buying futurity winners vs Paper?

What are the racing history of your best birds?


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## lawman

Avoid the birds that someone else has been and claims to be Staff Van Reet or anything else, if you can go straight to the most direct sourse of these birds. 

I obtained Staff Van Reets that were children and grandchildren down from McLaughlin’s top birds. http://www.mclaughlinusa.com/ Out of the approx 15 birds I bought I found only two that went on to the breeder boxes. I crossed them with my Janssen’s that were obtained straight from the Ejerkamps. They are out of the Famous 05 and 06 and their cousin the “Bond” all three were owned by Hans Ejerkamps and their grandchildren were Imported by my brother and I directly from the Netherlands. 
http://www.eijerkamp.com/(oewntl554g0wcmfsu0uextfj)/default.aspx 

After crossing the Staffs with the Janssen’s I then took their best children and crossed them back to the two originals that I kept. I found that a ¾ cross of Staff and Janssen fly’s the best. I found the same was true with the Janssen’s as well. A ¾ Janssen Staff cross fly’s assume as well.

Basically I took two inbred family's and crossed them. Both my brother and I fly an Easterly course. So, most of the time the birds face heavy headwinds as they fly west to go home. So far we are in our second full year of flying this course with these birds. Many a time we have only been a few minites behind the race winners for the combine. Best results to date, was a cock bird that took second place for the club and combine on a 300mi race. He was a seven month old late hatch mix of the two bloodlines.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> I have two Van Reet Cock breeders off of Mary and Vector crossed with Vic Miller birds. I am not impresses so far with their young when crossed back to Miller birds. I have lost three birds and two are from these birds. Can anyone suggest a cross that they have had good luck with? I thought I might get some purer Van Reet Blood to cross back to them.
> 
> I am more a believer in performance than strain. I have three rounds off of two pair that are flying the best. One pair is an Engels / Miller cross. The other is Miller with a sister to the hen of the first pair. A nest mates of these hens was 15th Vegas Crap Shoot, another finished 9th in another futurity. The Engels cock nest mate was 3rd 200 miles Colorado Classic. All pedigrees have winners in their blood. The Miller Cock, Den 584-De Dikki etc. Recent winners, one or two generations removed, not two or three decades.
> 
> What are your thoughts on buying futurity winners vs Paper?
> 
> What are the racing history of your best birds?




Hello Hill Family Loft,

You raise some very good points.

A "Brand" name on a bird, does not make it more then average. 

A "Pretty" pedigree does not mean, that a bird is better then average.

However, a "Family" or "Strain", which ever term you care to use, is very important in my view, when it comes to breeding. A single cock or hen, which wins one important race, may not have been the best bird in the race that day. When there are 40 or 50 birds on the drop, and seconds seperate dozens of birds, was the 1st bird clocked, really the best canidate for breeding ?

Now if parents, grand parents, great grand parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. have all won races, then I feel real good about those family genes. You have to look at the bird in your hand, and judge it according to what you as a breeder are trying to do. If, this is backed up by the bird preforming well in the races, so much the better. 

My thinking is that Great birds, come from Great Stock. The more Great Stock within the family tree, the more likely these genes will be passed on. The old...the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree theory. The pedigree, is just one of the tools. I personally, would prefer a proven close family line, then a collection of various winners, from various sources. Which would produce all types and styles and quality of birds.


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## lawman

Yes, maintain a good top of the line inbred family. however if you do not introduce top blood to them from time to time eventually you will loose the vigor and strength that made them so good in the first place. Even the Janssen Bros. brought in new blood to mix with their own. By doing this you maintain whats called "hybred vigor", and the quaility of your stock will remain high. 

I've seen and handled plenty of birds claiming to be pure this or that. They were little better in most cases that a coman street pigeon. They had pedigrees of course that proved thier linage was indeed inbred, in most cases back to a single bird. If you have an inbred family of birds and you have high losses each year, then your in trouble and need to find a good cross before you lose the entire line. 

Don't get me wrong I maintain inbred birds as well as outcrosses. I find the outcrosses fly most distances the best. The outcrosses are able to fly week in and week out without any down time, the inbreds on the other hand need more upkeep to maintain the same level of competition. Occassionally I have an outcross that is bred back into the main family of birds. I do this to maintain the quality of the stock and keep the "hybred vigor" alive and strong. 

I highly recommend to everyone www.winningmagazine.nl this site is owned and maintained by Steven Van Breeman one of the top fliers and breeders inthe Netherlands. I recommend you read the "Art of Breeding" by Prof. Anker and Van Breemans own work " Hints for mating breeding and selecting" the sequel to The late Prof. Anker's book.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Inbreeding*



lawman said:


> Yes, maintain a good top of the line inbred family. however if you do not introduce top blood to them from time to time eventually you will loose the vigor and strength that made them so good in the first place. Even the Janssen Bros. brought in new blood to mix with their own. By doing this you maintain whats called "hybred vigor", and the quaility of your stock will remain high.
> 
> I've seen and handled plenty of birds claiming to be pure this or that. They were little better in most cases that a coman street pigeon. They had pedigrees of course that proved thier linage was indeed inbred, in most cases back to a single bird. If you have an inbred family of birds and you have high losses each year, then your in trouble and need to find a good cross before you lose the entire line.


Hello Lawman  ,

That is what a lot of people do. Run in a cross, and then back into the family line. To each his own. If my family suffers from inbreeding depression, to the point where they can no longer fly in competition, then their value as breeders, from my viewpoint, has increased.

I maintain two straight inbred family lines. The one I call my Super Champion/President Janssen line, the other my Ludo lines. The crosses from these two lines is what produces the Hybred Vigor in the race team. As of yet, inbreeding depression has not been noticable, in the "Parental" lines, even from numerous Father x Daughter, Father x Grand Daughter, Bro x Sister, Nephew x Aunt combinations etc.

And you are so very correct about pretty pedigrees being sold concerning "Inbred" birds. Inbreeding is simply a tool. It will not produce great pigeons from average ones. And even more care must be taken in the selection process. Otherwise, you can take large steps backwards.


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## re lee

When you look at managed family lines within the loft. A person can have several lines of the same strain but different family lines. So crossing is from one family to the other. But still with in the strain of birds. Total out cross. comes from outside. And perhaps a different strain. Yes vigor Does come. But a controled line of birds managed well will last many years without a total out cross. Some people make the mistake of inbreeding to go back to a certion foundation in the pedigree. When this is done. You need a little insight to what you are doing it for. And remember testing the birds. Not makeing a bunch of future breeders. When the right bird is produced you build around that 1 bird. Lets say you have 3 to 5 families in the loft. Then you have 3 to 5 ways to out cross that family. But stay within the line Vigor can show the first cross But can it reproduce Will it take the family forward or backward. Bloodlines that have shared a base line Can be crossed well. Even distance flyers to speed bird birds. But you mostly just fly the birds. Later after proven well you may put the bird to use. BUT many will not . Sometimes that is a mistake. ALL a proven lone does is set a cosistant program that repeats its self. THAT is what a person should want. IT takes years to devlop a line of birds. WHY tear it down. when you can make your crosses right in the loft. of the same strain but different family base. There by keeping the line going And at the same time if the bird shows it was a usefull bird it can be bred to eather family to put its mark there to. Total out crosses have been used by perhaps all or most breeders BUT studied for need that the bird has. What is hard in real life. is Its hard to get to the top. and even harder to stay there. So well managed birds help get you there and help keep you there. AS long as its remembered Fads Or just getting the win. Means less then building the consistant set of birds that will time after time prove there worth. A bird that can wqin today. but never breed a winner or loose every race after is a luck bird for 1 or just a few races. Only a handfull of birds make the final cut to the top in any loft. those birds are the blocks that set foundations for the future. If you raise 50 or 100 hundred birds From a season. Say 2 3 are perhaps the top birds of the year. HOW many others are usefull birds that can still make the cut. Still have a place in the loft. Or perhaps help a different flyer gain. Say maybe six or 8. the others are not up to being sold or taking anybody forward. So we see say up to around 10 to 11 birds That end up being the test birds. 2 to 3 of them are the key birds to watch. Sure the others get flown. But at the end of the race season They just do not have what it takes. To many times people take those birds and sell paper on them. Takes the next person years to do good. Just give those birds away NO paper with them It takes at least 3 years to study a future breeder from the flying loft. EACH person that breeds pigeons makes there own family of birds. JUSt some do not go forward Because they Do not take the time to get to see the results. Which takes a few years. But half heartly put the birds together with a map to where they are trying to take the birds for the best results. I guess I better shut this book down


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## lawman

What your describing is not true Inbreeding in its strictest sense......

Inbreeding is the act of taking a pigeon back to its own father/mother grandfather/grandmother or brother/sister matings. you cant do this continually without introducing new blood, or you risk loosing your entire bloodline.

what your describing takes time to develope, a family of closely related birds. This in my opinion, inorder to do it properly would take a lot of birds and space. otherwise you again risk loosing the line by the loss of a bird or two. 

Outcrossing is the act to taking two totally unrelated birds and breeding them together. The history books on pigeon fanciers of the past are full of top legend that had inbreed or loosly related birds that in there own right did well for generations (of birds). But never quite attained the top results they were looking for untill they brought in outside bloodlines and crossed them there own.

No matter who's family of birds you look at if you go back far enough you will find outcrossings and loose family matings that brought the bloodlines to greater glory and inbreeding allone could ever have done. 

No wonder my freinds in Europe think all us Americans are nuts. We want pure this or that when we purchase birds. The best of Europe, dont even use pure inbreeding for their colony's of birds. Most maintain, large family groups, but how many of us here in the US can afford to keep that many birds. So it becomes neccessary more often than in europe to bring in new blood. If your lucky you can bring in blood related to what you already have, but bring in the new blood you must or lose all you've worked to attain.


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## re lee

Lawman. Before you start inbreeding You have to have a line to build off. And You do not have to keep such a large number of breeder pairs. Say you have a top cock bird Or hen. That you want to breed a family of birds around. You start down the line. Breeding that blood into The line. Aunts uncles cousins. And down to grand parents parents Brother sister. BUT if you move to fast on the line. YOu tighten up the blood line to fast. And end up suffering. From to close of a inbred family. And about the friends in europe. Thinking the americans are crazy. Well. HOW many of them have bred down the line. A large number have and will still do. Sure there are some that Bring in new birds often. Like I said though in the breeder loft. You can have several family lines going at a time. NOT just 1. But top breeders are few and far between. And one does not have to have large numbers. Just a few think that way. Quality allways out does numbers Nothing is pure. Look at the racing homer. Its across from the get go. And many strain trace back to several of the old line strains. Thats why you look at different lines and notice a strong comparision. No body will get past a few wins with out some kind of program going on in the breeding loft. Sure a cross can fly and win. And many people have cross bred birds. NOTHING wrong there. I have allways said a 2 dollar bird can beat a 10,000 dollar bird in a race. Im just saying a family of birds show relation And carry the winning on for years. In any winning line you find background. problem ther is the paper sellers. They sell birds that can not make the cut. for the sake of money. And people but thinking ok. I have some good birds now. When agin work has to be done. In america I see to often people try a new line out and do not get the wins often change lines and keep doing so. When all they had to do is buy less for more. And start right. Saves alot of down falls. Do not have to spend a fortune just get the best you can afford at the time. ! pair of top birds will start a line of birds. That can win. Same goes in show birds. How many family strains in europe started with just 3 4 pair of birds? several. Yes in america people want to keep that europe name going. Even if the orginal breeder died 50 years ago. YOUR birds will have your mark on them. your results in the races will attest to your program. When americans remember its there bloodline. Of birds NOT vanloons ludlos leen boers on and on. That the have developed And are selling From a base line strain Then europe birds Should not be needed as much . Because Some of the best pigeons in the world are right here in america. Race or show type. They just need to be raced in a larger number. State races. Or large combine at least. Because the only way to get numbers in races is to increase flyers. No town in america can  say they have a 10 000 bird race. Alot will have a 50 bird race 100. think its great because they have a 200 bird race. Do away with A B and C races. for get winning Let the bird do that. But then a lot would leave the hobby because they can not win any more. Because they had higher caliber Birds being flown aginst them. But in a few years. The people that want to go forward Improve there line stick it out And boom . Racers in America have done what other countries have done for years. Pulled together for the large races. Even 4 district state races would get numbers up alot. how many race clubs are in your state ? How many say within a hundred mile area. Then how many flyers total. Time lets say 1 race per station times up to thirty birds per flyer or even forty. The numbers increase alot. And with todays gas prices thecosts go down on raceing too. Or larger awards on wins.


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## lawman

You may be forgetting one thing. Just as there are many top fliers thoughout the world that have families of birds. There are many who attained the top by doing nothing more than breeding the best back to the best, generation after generation. Bottom line in that both systems work and you have to use what works best for you. As I said, even the great Janssens Bros. didn't attain their greastest acheivements by maintaining and keeping only their colony of birds. They had one bros that did nothing but look for the best of the best from other bloodlines so they could breeding that in with their own. by doing this they were able to stay on top. you will never in my book attain the top or stay there if you dont occassionally bring in new bloodlines. I'm not saying your coman street birds. you have to constantly look at other top performing birds and bloodlines and be ready to do the occassional cross or your done for.


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## re lee

Yes if the reason for the new blood will enhance your program. A sound program looks at the different family lines on performance. And then new blood has to be tested in performance. Ive known people that stayed within a line for over thirty years befor bringing in new out side blood. The worst thing that happens on new blood is tearing down a family of birds. Thats why new birds have to be tested. Befor setting there blood to deep in the family. And yes New blood may be the need at a point. A good breeder will make that matter up if needed. Crossing to just do it. Has short term effect. Yes a win. But is short performance Worth it. NO If you look down the road. raiseing breeding raceing or showing. The birds. For a long term program. Not five ten years. But twenty thirty years A line of birds does much better. The people who get in to raceing for 5 or 10 years. Are just getting to a point of sound breeding. It takes some time to see what you have to work with. It take some time to find the right birds. A breeder who buys from more then 3 different sources will have alot of short falls. Mixing blood sets nothing. Best to best is not a true idea. Many times a brother or sister. that raceed below the winning bird Proves to be the better over all breeder Then the other bird. results Is trying to find that prepotent bird that produce bird after bird that helps set a program. Few prepotent birds get raised. BUT the are keys To the future. Around thosae birds comes the family. But As you have said each there own. Great debate though.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

re lee said:


> Yes if the reason for the new blood will enhance your program. A sound program looks at the different family lines on performance. And then new blood has to be tested in performance. Ive known people that stayed within a line for over thirty years befor bringing in new out side blood. The worst thing that happens on new blood is tearing down a family of birds. Thats why new birds have to be tested. Befor setting there blood to deep in the family. And yes New blood may be the need at a point. A good breeder will make that matter up if needed. Crossing to just do it. Has short term effect. Yes a win. But is short performance Worth it. NO If you look down the road. raiseing breeding raceing or showing. The birds. For a long term program. Not five ten years. But twenty thirty years A line of birds does much better. The people who get in to raceing for 5 or 10 years. Are just getting to a point of sound breeding. It takes some time to see what you have to work with. It take some time to find the right birds. A breeder who buys from more then 3 different sources will have alot of short falls. Mixing blood sets nothing. Best to best is not a true idea. Many times a brother or sister. that raceed below the winning bird Proves to be the better over all breeder Then the other bird. results Is trying to find that prepotent bird that produce bird after bird that helps set a program. Few prepotent birds get raised. BUT the are keys To the future. Around thosae birds comes the family. But As you have said each there own. Great debate though.


WOW Re Lee,  

I never "heard" you so eloqent.  You took my thoughts EXACTLY ! Right on Brother...you are from the "Old" school and I just Love It !

I feared everyone, was missing my point, when I spoke of my personal preferences. Robert, you spoke it, like a true pro. 

You realize of course, that we will never become "Rich" from selling birds, when this get's out ?


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## lawman

Ok, so your current birds are pure, but pure what? I'd be willing to bet the base birds were not "pure". Whomever you got your base birds from at some point had mixed birds. not many people out there can say they are breeding birds handed down to them by their daddy or their daddy's daddy, with no new blood introduced to them. 

Your colony is only as pure as the base. most of your top flying birds in almost any combine are going to be crosses. I'll grant you not all, but most. I'll even grant you that sometimes the brother or sister of the top birds actually end up being the better breeder. 

However I firmly believe that your best combination of fliers and breeders will come from birds with mixed ancestry. The mixed blood birds will have more endurance and stamina, they will therfore be able to fly week in and week out without having as much down time. the pure breeds, and by this I mean birds that have had no new blood introduced within the last 4 generations. will also produce top fliers but your percentages of top performers and breeders will go down drastically. 

I ask you simply this, how many youngsters do you have to breed each year to end up with a team of 30 to 40 birds at the start of the race season? I bred a total of 64 birds this year and to date still have 63. The only one I lost, flew of the loft never to be seen again. It was one of your pure breeds from a closely bred family. my brother who has the same base of birds I do, bred 65 birds and had 4 purebreds lost of the loft. to date they are the only birds he's missing. So, although I keep purebreds to replenish the base, (and they have to perform at top level) the percentages of purebreds vs. crossbreds that can actually compete both on the race course and in the breeding loft goes way down. 

Course this is just my opinion based on my personal results and observations.


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## re lee

I know No line is pure In the begining of any line you start with a base set. From that point you work on building a family of birds. What ever you start out with. They can be crossed several ways. BUT they are your starting line of birds. YOU the breeder goes from there. MANY people have started with a mix And set there needs on the birds. DONE very well. I would not condem any bird that can show its worth and be able to reproduce that worth in its own line. A person starts with what they can. And builds from there. AND yes crosses win races. Alot of breeders will cross for the money races too. BUT often they get rid of the cross birds unless the bird was a real keeper. THe flying loft is different from the breeding loft. When birds go to the breeding loft. They have showed they perform in the breeding loft they are tested on how they can carry forward That ability To breed winners. Its good not to loose many young birds When you get to where you do not loose to many young birds A person will not have to raise as many. There are people that raise young birds to fly that would never consider even putting one in the breeding loft. As they over worked them when young. But then they raise them to fly any way. Pulling the top youngbird flyers after the 150 or 200 mile race they can rest and prove more at old bird. Then fly the rest out through the season. That a stronger family comes faster. Some people will take a percentage of the young birds NOT race them at all until they are yearlings race them light. Then full out as 2 year olds. They prove out worth the wait. Some lines of birds mature slower Depends on the past breeding. Any racing homer as I have said started from total breed cross. Then set on performance. To make what we know as the racing homer. Even today you have people that test breed to other breeders trying to get an edge. I am in NO way saying cross are no good. Im just saying Build your family of birds No matter what they are. To stay going for years. I know a person that raises just a handful of youngbirds each year to race. About 12 birds . Starts a season often with about 8 It takes 1 bird to win. But finding the 1 bird we have to race I think at least 50. Out of that hopefully 3 will be top birds. THat a good year if that happens. Now if not over worked a few more may make the cut to a old bird team. It take tome anyway. About 3 years to start having a decent old bird team.And thats really the 4th year. You will have birds on that team That can get home and get home well. The others have been lost. Hold overs that are left from a youngbird team. That were not in the clock. Not the first average 8 birds. Needs to removed from the program To build a strong team. Then After a old bird team has been made. And you introduce new birds to it. The number has to stay small And test those birds for 2 seasons. Then compare to the birds that are already on the team . Do the new birds still have a place is there any of the old birds that need to go. Is there a old bird that has showed it needs to retire to the breeding loft. What will it bring to the breeding loft. And has its family line heldup on performance well enough to add it to it. Or should it be tested in another line. I would gladly say It sounds like you have some decent birds. Do you feel like you need to go out and keep buying more birds. If not then you build on what you have. THATS a family And as said in the breeding loft ther will be several families around the key builders. And each strain has the different make up birds. Short performers distance performers and and hard weather birds. The person just has to watch through production On how the line is going. And really when a program gets set. The birds perform at all stages. Bloodlines set allready that people buy. Have to be remember they were set at certion distances some flyers lew the whole coarse some pulled at a shorter distance. so they became known as sprint birds distance birds. Because the breeder tested that point. and people noticed that. Then region plays a big part. birds have to be trained to fly in an area they have to perfom in. so it takes a little time there too. To retrain set patterns. First steps are line breeding. starting to devlop the birds. the as key birds are produced. Start the in breeding to share the strenghs. first comes cousins aunts uncles. grandparents father daughter mother son. great grandparents But its years putting father daughter together or mother son gets tight fast. And the family will go down fast. NOW yes trying to bring back something people have done so. BUT kept tight control on the outcome. Then when set restart a line around that point which is beging line breeding which is a new cross away from that line. Or else as said the birds suffer from to tight of breeding. As you bring forward weak production fist smaller size. less endurance. and its tore down. THATS wher some fail. By trying to get tight without understanding. When you do this you reshre that blood that you brought back. Adding that strengh agin. But also adding a key from the past. at a stronger level. But there are todays birds that would fare just as well as past birds. So a person really does not have to reach to far into the past.


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## lawman

let me understand this correctly, your saying linebreeding not neccessarily inbreeding to produce a family of birds?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> let me understand this correctly, your saying linebreeding not neccessarily inbreeding to produce a family of birds?




Darn Robert ! 

There you go again !!  Giving out all these "Trade Secrets" !!

Remember that movie, "Scar Face" ? First you get the money....then you get the power, then you get the woman ?.  

In pigeon breeding...1st, you get the Champion Racer...., Then you get the Champion Breeder...When you have both....in the same bird !!! You hit the Jack Pot !! Now what do you do with this "One in a million or billion" ? Let's say, Stud Racing Cock ?

Let's just say, for discussion, that YB's off this cock go for $5,000 each ?

What do you do ??

Being a "Business Man", let's say this cock is 12 years old, and you "Invested" $30,000, what do you do ? Keep crossing this aging cock ? Or cross him with a daughter ? ( In-Breeding) And then perhaps a Grand Daughter ? ( In-Breeding)


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## re lee

Lofts are set on linebreeding then on to the in breeding. . BUT with todays birds alot of that work has been done. IF you get birds that have aready been set. But If you want and that works to. You start with what you have. Look at the birds backgrounf. From the different family lines And go from there. I still say its better not to get birds from more then just 3 people. That have proven birds. Better if you start with 1 person on the top. And perhaps 2 to 3 pair. From there builds a strong family. OR carries a strong family forward. With the home work done on the different birds You can often trace back Many years of whatwas put into the birds. That set the foundation. Allowing for the proper cross That enhances a line IF need be. one just one top breeder pair in the loft can make a winning family As You really do just end up with a few in the life time birds That are keys. When not wasted. They bring a loft To the top. Look at the great birds over the years They were what made people famous And that was many years in the making. Thank GOD for the people that have giuded the way. They saved us all alot of work. But then we still can improve on that And go forward. I think today the racing homer Is a future bird Having to make a few changes Looking at eath change Which has brought more loses . And today the hobby Has somew top Breeders that bring many good birds Of set families To America. Price has gone WAY up. But money races have gone way up. No more of the 200 or 500 dollar monmey races. But many thousands. Or up to a million dollars. AND Buying a top winning bird Costs top dollar. So we mostly have to settle for offspring off those birds To save some money. But we have the chance By breeding our birds as well as we can to get there some sooner then others. But get there. And know that we stuck it out. Win or lose. And bred a family of birds That will do good for many years. AND yes Warren that top ageing bird That we sometimes are able to get our hands on. NEEDs to be brought back By tight fast inbreeding. Putting it on several of the top Hens or cocks In the breeding loft To find that key it can carry forwadr with. I would even use feeder birds to raise as many as possible And not over work the bird that way. My though on that Is I have noticed through the years. That the later bred birds Seem to be some of the better ones. So I would wait until early spring when the birds Are more naturaly set for breeding to work on getting that key back. Then spread the blood. Some more. I was reading just today. In some old 1960 1961 magizines. And a good article about building a strain of birds Was ther in fact 2 . One said start with at least 2 pair of the best birds you can get the other said 3 . And get them all from just one person. The other said no more then 2 people. And make sure they are from different families. THats loft families. breed them then cross the best young into the birds. . Thats a 44 and 45 year old article. And we know it has been geting done for over a hundred years. With proper out crossing a family will never get to tight. We will know when the cross is getting to be needed. AND If done right That cross is in the loft already. I would say . But if not We have to go looking For that right bird. I thank the people I have met and learned from over the years. There are alot of great pigeon people out there that gives us all a path to learn by. Best of all The hobby just gets smarter all the time. I used to love to try and get a win. Now I just like trying how to raise a bird that might just get a win. or close. That way I can understand the birds by trying to add my mark on there breeding. Because the birds do not get mad if they did not win just people do that. So its more fun now Pigeon raiseing is an art. The bird becomes the painting. It just how well you brushed on the paint as to how good the painting is. And good paintings last for ever.


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## lawman

Ok now I'm confused.........what ever the mating be it inbreeding, linebreeding or an outright cross. Soon as you pair them up the way that you want them. Havent you then left your mark for good bad or indifferent?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Ok now I'm confused.........what ever the mating be it inbreeding, linebreeding or an outright cross. Soon as you pair them up the way that you want them. Havent you then left your mark for good bad or indifferent?


 First of all..

Robert, EXCELLENT post. Perhaps one of your very best !  

Apparently, we both have some of those "Old" publications ?  

Now to you Law Man,

Your certainly will leave your mark, if you produce a real Champion.

I think Robert's and my thinking, is we only have a lifetime to "Play" this game. Producing an honest to goodness, CHAMPION, may just be a one in a lifetime event, if at all. 

A Champion Breeder of Champion Racing Pigeons, takes years of painstaking hard work. Blood, Sweat, and Tears. 

As Robert said, Our birds, are the art. We are simply the painter, mixing the paint, applying the brush.

If you can already "SEE" the finished painting, perhaps decades before the painting is finished, then you will have a plan, and the best way to complete your work.

I am making much progress in creating a very uniform "breed" of pigeon. For me, when I have good genetic material, I tend to set it into the colony, through the breeding of close relatives. 

For me, the ability to win races, and produce race winners, is what I want set into the Colony. The other traits and preferences, come second on down the line. Outstanding performance in these areas, allows further reproduction.

"Key" foundation breeders, have gentic "clones" which I have produced and tested. With In-Breeding Co-efficents in excess of 40%.

The foundation birds mate's are switched every year, with "Star" offspring, set aside for test breeding. The rest are raced. "Winners" are stocked for test matings. 

Breeding Software allows the results to be used as an aid to locate the "Keepers".


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## lawman

I highly recommend to you and to everyone www.winningmagazine.nl this site is owned and maintained by Steven Van Breeman one of the top fliers and breeders in the Netherlands. As has top the entire federation to many times to list. I recommend you read the "Art of Breeding" by Prof. Anker and Van Breemans own work " Hints for mating breeding and selecting" the sequel to The late Prof. Anker's book.

Although he keeps a colony of closely breed birds, through a proceess of inbreeding a linebreeding. He warns against getting them so close that they become virtual clones of each other, matter of fact he warns that if you get that close your on the downward slide and that if you font find a good cross for your bloodline soon it will be to late if its not already. 

I have a freind whom I fly against here in my owm combine that has maintained his own birds for almost thirty years. with very little new blood introduced to the originals. You can go into his loft and all the birds handle the same, same wing, body, ect. There have been times that no one could touch his birds, but those times have become fewer and fewer. His best overall birds this last year came from crossing his old blood with some of my birds. I think even he was surprised, he never gave them a brake, they went to every race up the entire course. While his own inbred bloodlines would have on and off weeks, the crosses consistantly went to the top week in and week out. 

Van Breeman basically promotes a procees where each time you linebreed or inbreed, you re-evaluate what resulted and be ready for the next breeding to be an outcross. by outcross I mean a bird with no comon ancestry within the last four generations but out of the same basic bloodlines. 

Again he warns that if everything looks like its a clone of the bird sitting next to it your in trouble. Van breeman has been to the top of his federation more times than anyone else in the Netherlands currently living and probibly long since passed on as well. So I hope your not offened, but I'll follow his advise on breeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> I highly recommend to you and to everyone www.winningmagazine.nl this site is owned and maintained by Steven Van Breeman one of the top fliers and breeders in the Netherlands. As has top the entire federation to many times to list. I recommend you read the "Art of Breeding" by Prof. Anker and Van Breemans own work " Hints for mating breeding and selecting" the sequel to The late Prof. Anker's book.
> 
> Although he keeps a colony of closely breed birds, through a proceess of inbreeding a linebreeding. He warns against getting them so close that they become virtual clones of each other, matter of fact he warns that if you get that close your on the downward slide and that if you font find a good cross for your bloodline soon it will be to late if its not already.
> 
> I have a freind whom I fly against here in my owm combine that has maintained his own birds for almost thirty years. with very little new blood introduced to the originals. You can go into his loft and all the birds handle the same, same wing, body, ect. There have been times that no one could touch his birds, but those times have become fewer and fewer. His best overall birds this last year came from crossing his old blood with some of my birds. I think even he was surprised, he never gave them a brake, they went to every race up the entire course. While his own inbred bloodlines would have on and off weeks, the crosses consistantly went to the top week in and week out.
> 
> Van Breeman basically promotes a procees where each time you linebreed or inbreed, you re-evaluate what resulted and be ready for the next breeding to be an outcross. by outcross I mean a bird with no comon ancestry within the last four generations but out of the same basic bloodlines.
> 
> Again he warns that if everything looks like its a clone of the bird sitting next to it your in trouble. Van breeman has been to the top of his federation more times than anyone else in the Netherlands currently living and probibly long since passed on as well. So I hope your not offened, but I'll follow his advise on breeding.


Steve and I share emails, and his genetics are in my loft. Your interpretation, and my interpretation on the subject matter are just different. You appear to disapprove of "Family" matings, but that is exactly what Robert, Steve, and Dr. Anker, have been talking about.

You mis-read, or misunderstood, my post completely.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Student of Steve ?*



lawman said:


> Avoid the birds that someone else has been and claims to be Staff Van Reet or anything else, if you can go straight to the most direct sourse of these birds.
> 
> I obtained Staff Van Reets that were children and grandchildren down from McLaughlin’s top birds. http://www.mclaughlinusa.com/ Out of the approx 15 birds I bought I found only two that went on to the breeder boxes. I crossed them with my Janssen’s that were obtained straight from the Ejerkamps. They are out of the Famous 05 and 06 and their cousin the “Bond” all three were owned by Hans Ejerkamps and their grandchildren were Imported by my brother and I directly from the Netherlands.
> http://www.eijerkamp.com/(oewntl554g0wcmfsu0uextfj)/default.aspx
> 
> After crossing the Staffs with the Janssen’s I then took their best children and crossed them back to the two originals that I kept. I found that a ¾ cross of Staff and Janssen fly’s the best. I found the same was true with the Janssen’s as well. A ¾ Janssen Staff cross fly’s assume as well.
> 
> Basically I took two inbred family's and crossed them. Both my brother and I fly an Easterly course. So, most of the time the birds face heavy headwinds as they fly west to go home. So far we are in our second full year of flying this course with these birds. Many a time we have only been a few minites behind the race winners for the combine. Best results to date, was a cock bird that took second place for the club and combine on a 300mi race. He was a seven month old late hatch mix of the two bloodlines.


Law Man,

If you are a student of Steven Van Breeman, his breeding methods, etc. Then what are you doing messing around with birds, which could not give the time of day, to a passing Breeman ?  Step up to the plate, and own some birds, from your "Mentor".


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## re lee

Yes As said when you develop a family of birds. You have to breed towards needs. And as has been said You will know when to out cross. And Like said. You should have several different family lines in the breeding loft. That you are building around. So you can pickup the cross right there. Sure or go back if you can to the source and get a bird that will assist you. We have been saying Warren And I basicly the same same you read. You just understood a little better from reading. But NO loft can get and stay at peak perfomance with out a plan.On line and inbreeding. Just think you leave the birds to there own resource. AND the will revert back And keep going backwards. Until the Have bred out any features set. And will be more or less. Just. Pigeons. Man changes things. On any kept bird or animal. The the animal or bird. Stays true to nature. So And only So because of line and inbred feature has man improved results. records show that vigor is being reduced. Size shows that as well. Decreased fertality. Keeping a line going Is adding some new life to it. AS long as you test the results. BUt if not controled. Adding to ften will destroy many years of work alomost over night. Because adding brings in faults allso. That have be observed. Im glad your birds have helped bring vigor to a thirty year family. If that person had noticed more that the birds was starting to go some backwards on performance. He could have reset earlyer. I wopuld not recomend just one family in the loft. Keep several around the best. And you have your outcross birds for many years. Though it does take time to find and build key birds. But thats part of going forward. Take an apple tree if not pruned and taken care of the apples just keep getting smaller and more bitter. But if maintained they stay large and good to eat. NATURE will reclaim any thing that is left to its own means. And life will stop anything that is over stayed its use. So to tight of a family will fade away. Thats why breeding becomes a art IT has to be maintained. Find a person that never breeds towards a line AND you will find that person NEVER stays with the wins. Just hit and miss.


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## re lee

I just rememberd Something. DID not Vanbreeman When he decided to set hid needs into the birds. He inbred strongly all the way back To a bird bred almost forty years earlyer. By going down the family line in close relation. Increasing the old blood. To that bird. I believe the bird was ode 46. A 1946 bird. That he was wanting to drag back. He also blieves as I about good ventalation. But has gone to strong younbird racing. So this helps prove that Inbreeding is a sucsessful key. When the very person you spoke of did so to set his birds. And did so in a hard come back way to bring back strong blood from a long ago bird. I used to have several birds directly off his birds. They flew well and were smart birds. And They were impressive on there family wins. Even the old Jan Ardens Were rebuilt after the war with 3 pair that was stolen back from the german lofts. 3 pair helped rebuild the whole strain.


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## lawman

Figured my last comments would stir up the conversation a bit.  

It was "the Old Klaren 46", Van Breeman was only able to obtain a few Children, grandchildren and great grandchildren out of him, but by breeding the best youngsters of each pairing back to the best of the close matings always being aware that the only common ancestor was the "46" with each subsequent breeding, he was able to produce "The Goede Jaarling". But even he brought in pure Janssen blood (technically an out crossing, no common ancestry within four generations) to help in his breeding program.

And as to not having distance birds or saying what they are out of well, that’s because I've only talked about some of my short and middle distance blood ....... other than the home grown Trenton’s I believe I mentioned in one or two articles.

That’s because even on the net, I'm going to give out everything I have for bloodlines. When my brother and I began flying about 20-25 yrs ago. We obtained birds that were a combination of Waterhouse and Torrekan Beakearts crossed onto pure Janssen blood. The person we obtained the birds from was the top flier in the area at the time and no one could come close to beating his birds. We both worked construction back then and we did a lot of work on his home in exchange for a complete round of youngsters off of his best stuff. the word got out that we had obtained 30 youngsters. Then approx. 3 weeks before the first race, when we got home from work, our entire loft of birds was gone. Approx 6 weeks later we had two birds show back up and about a week after that a third showed up with bloody feet and a broken wing. These three birds combined with two Waterhouse Beakeart grizzles obtained from another flier began the foundation of our birds. Some of which is still in both our lofts today.

As for warren....maybe he needs to re-read what I've stated.......I never said I didn’t believe in inbreeding, or line breeding (which I prefer of the two). I just believe too many people concentrate so much on these two things that they fail to bring in new blood as needed, before it’s too late. (Hence the example of my friend). And I believe too many new fliers get so caught up in trying to reproduce one or two good fliers in their lofts that they loose their way.

I could show several other examples of the same type of thing with in my own Combine. I’m sure if you all think about it you've seen it happen in your own areas as well. People who have concentrated families of birds some extending back over 20-30 years, which have each of them made the almost fatal error of inbreeding to far, without an infusion of similar blood from a different loft.

I agree that you don’t wish to bring in totally outside bloodlines. But if you go back into the histories, many different bloodlines have been founded solely or in part on the Janssen bros. bloodlines. For example if you have "pure" Janssen’s and you bring in a "Pure Muleman" for the crossbreeding. It’s not a true crossbreeding, its line breeding, since Muleman got his big boost from an infusion of Janssen blood into his own. The same can be said of Tourniers, Hofkens, Red fox, and many others. You would have to go far to find a bloodline of birds that has not been to some degree influenced by the Bros. Janssen and their birds.

Like Treesa said, Good arguements though


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## re lee

Righty several people Have gone with the same base line birds. Even the set bloodline of a loft family. Took it different paths. BUT base stayed there. So the line stayed avalible. Trentons had a offerman base line. So did morris gordans Where offermans and Buettas were the base line birds To set gordans needs Whichs says. Gordan birds would cross onto the trenton lines. Or should be able to cross well As a needed out cross. A out cross bird Is just a bird not within the family. But should have the tools to bring something needed to the line. Take trentones. It would be hard pressed to find What some would call pure trenton these days. As its a old blood line over 100 years old. So we would just be able to find birds that were base lined to the trenton line. From just a few breeders that kept some find of family.As with new breeders. What does happen when they get birds. If they did not seek out the right people to buy from. They were not getting as good of birds But getting well papered birds. Happens alot. Birds that were to inbred. Birds that could not make the cut. BUT you start somewhere even there. Take what you have breed them test the young birds Keep the the top birds And go from there. Most strains can fly all the distances. You just have to notice which birds breed the different Distance birds better. But really When bred right you have the birds. I would recomend not to over fly young birds that you hope later to be sending to the longer races as old bird racers. AS young birds As said before. Depending on family strain past breeding. Take time to get full growth. And first moult is important. After the first moult the bird looks different . And many are flown in the moult In asome areas. finishing out while being flown. So its better to have those hold overs that were trained out To say 75 or 100 miles then pulled to test them as yearlings. THey are often the stronger better flyer . Each loft has a method of training. THAT method sets results. Birds respond to it. You record the birds from the method they were trained. And some methods bring out the birds performance a little better. Now the light or darking system. Well you are just trying to get better young bird flyers. And as said thats a short record bird. BUT today thats the money races In 1 loft races. And club races get an edge . But then as yearlings in club the natural birds may be the better feathered . So breeding programs and method training BOTH bring to the table results. Breeding the stronger in results. Method to add strengh. And yes This thread stays interesting . By debate. We all have to take a look back And reason with what we have grown to believe. Then Share and rethink Line and inbreeding controled Has been the statements and key for anything bird or animal. Since man has put his hands to improvement of them. And many hundreds of articles books and such have been written to help the next person. Then that next person perhaps helps another And A few get results that help a whole lot of people through shareing the birds or animals. With many others. Because a few did the work. The others get the results. They just have to hold on to those results. Through proper breeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> Figured my last comments would stir up the conversation a bit.
> 
> It was "the Old Klaren 46", Van Breeman was only able to obtain a few Children, grandchildren and great grandchildren out of him, but by breeding the best youngsters of each pairing back to the best of the close matings always being aware that the only common ancestor was the "46" with each subsequent breeding, he was able to produce "The Goede Jaarling". But even he brought in pure Janssen blood (technically an out crossing, no common ancestry within four generations) to help in his breeding program.
> 
> And as to not having distance birds or saying what they are out of well, that’s because I've only talked about some of my short and middle distance blood ....... other than the home grown Trenton’s I believe I mentioned in one or two articles.
> 
> That’s because even on the net, I'm going to give out everything I have for bloodlines. When my brother and I began flying about 20-25 yrs ago. We obtained birds that were a combination of Waterhouse and Torrekan Beakearts crossed onto pure Janssen blood. The person we obtained the birds from was the top flier in the area at the time and no one could come close to beating his birds. We both worked construction back then and we did a lot of work on his home in exchange for a complete round of youngsters off of his best stuff. the word got out that we had obtained 30 youngsters. Then approx. 3 weeks before the first race, when we got home from work, our entire loft of birds was gone. Approx 6 weeks later we had two birds show back up and about a week after that a third showed up with bloody feet and a broken wing. These three birds combined with two Waterhouse Beakeart grizzles obtained from another flier began the foundation of our birds. Some of which is still in both our lofts today.
> 
> As for warren....maybe he needs to re-read what I've stated.......I never said I didn’t believe in inbreeding, or line breeding (which I prefer of the two). I just believe too many people concentrate so much on these two things that they fail to bring in new blood as needed, before it’s too late. (Hence the example of my friend). And I believe too many new fliers get so caught up in trying to reproduce one or two good fliers in their lofts that they loose their way.
> 
> I could show several other examples of the same type of thing with in my own Combine. I’m sure if you all think about it you've seen it happen in your own areas as well. People who have concentrated families of birds some extending back over 20-30 years, which have each of them made the almost fatal error of inbreeding to far, without an infusion of similar blood from a different loft.
> 
> I agree that you don’t wish to bring in totally outside bloodlines. But if you go back into the histories, many different bloodlines have been founded solely or in part on the Janssen bros. bloodlines. For example if you have "pure" Janssen’s and you bring in a "Pure Muleman" for the crossbreeding. It’s not a true crossbreeding, its line breeding, since Muleman got his big boost from an infusion of Janssen blood into his own. The same can be said of Tourniers, Hofkens, Red fox, and many others. You would have to go far to find a bloodline of birds that has not been to some degree influenced by the Bros. Janssen and their birds.
> 
> Like Treesa said, Good arguements though



Some Very Good Points....Law Man.

Perhaps I misunderstood your message. If you are going to take a line of birds and improve upon it, and take it forward, then it is nessecary to introduce new genes, from superior stock. I don't think you will find much argument there. 

I guess you could trace the ancestors of all our pigeons, back to just a handful of birds. And the point being ? As soon as a fancier places his hands on the birds, and guides their matings, then he has placed his mark on this line, strain, breed etc. If I am not correct, then how many generations, does he have to produce, in order to lay claim to the breeding "credits" ? And at what point does his "family" become a strain, or even a new breed ?

One last thing....as you search for that "New" crossing material. The higher up you go in genetic quality, the harder it becomes to find suitable, superior stock. I have experimented with some crosses with some American Aces, but the jury is still out. That is one of the reasons, my family has become more inbred then most. The lack of a high quality cross. In the mean time, are YB training is showing some surprizing results. Our "Straight" family line, is out performing all of our other lines, hybreds, and crosses. I had expected some performance loss due to inbreeding. But, it appears to be just the opposite. At this point, the introduction of new blood, has resulted in lower octane. Not bad, but not high octane racing fuel.

So in the mean time, the search for superior stock, is always an ongoing process. Personally, I don't see the purpose for doing a cross, unless you have important genetic material to gain from the cross itself. Otherwise, what is the point ?

Great sharing of ideals. Much food for thought. In the end, the birds themselves, will determine who here is on the best path to achieve excellence.
Thats what makes this so much fun !


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## re lee

Good points Warren. In the loft. Say you we will go with ludlos. And you have say 3 families of ludlos going around 3 different key birds. That are ludlos. Those families have 1 thing in comman they are all still ludlos base line birds. But of different families. So the crossss when needed. Can come from another family right in the loft. And still be ludlo. Now we look down the road many years. And the whole family all families are starting to get closer. Then we want. Now we stayed with the ludlo as a strain.base. We have learned by now other breeders that stayed true to that base also. But there birds would be family ouut cross. So we go there to find our future need. Or with base line reseash we cross a ludlo base bird Back into the birds. Test the young and old bird flyers. If it works. Whil now we have reduced that base to a more percent ludlo line. In the three years. taking just the best 1 maybe 2 birds. Back into the family 1. Producing now almost pure set ludlos. That can cross to the other families. To put vigor back. Now we spent doing this say 5 years. Because the other birds prognency had to be tested. And results had to show the birds past line would not tear down the line that was built. First year may have showed good results. For young birds. But the old bird races told much more. Then breeder selction. For the top 2 birds had to prove that the results could carry forward into the future generations. So it becomes much easyer to add the ludlo bird by the time the key bird shows on the peddigree as the great grand father or great grand dam. On most all of that family of birds. That way you will never really get to tight. And when selection is tight on stock breeders. We now that this could be 10 to 15 years on a small family. Now a larger family we know it could be spread to 25 years. And that bird should be in the loft. From another ludlo family. But years are as matings go. Some birds wouldf have been taken tighter earlyer. Then used to bring up the rear. And as some key birds were put together for several seasons because they clicked so well. Lets say we are breeding 3 families. 5 pair to a family.total 15 pair Now I will let you judge how long for your program it would take for you to puthe key bird of the three families. to the point that it appeared as the great dam or sire on most all those birds of the family. Then remember you have 3 families going. Taking the needed family outcross from one of the other 2 families. Bringing into the line how many years do you think you can go without ever leaving the loft to obtain outside blood other then what you have. All I can say. For me it would be alot of years. So when bought right bred right. I see little need to go out and replinish the birds for years to come. Not unless a person just thinks some other strain would be faster. AND that often happens with todays flyers. Perhaps thats why they never quite get what there looking for. To much time spent looking not enough time spent breeding.


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## lawman

OK , the crosses in the first generation were not as fast as your fastest inbreds, take the best of the crosses and cross them in again, so your flying a 3/4 - 1/4 cross. If your results are like mine have been you'll find these birds will be just as fast if not a little faster then your original blood, they will also have more stamina, they will also be able to be flown further distances and for more weeks in succession before having to rest. 

Also, I knew a flier over 20 years ago that did nothing but inbred his birds... he had the formula worked out and could tell you in what generations his birds would perform and what generations would not. After his death (I was in the army at the time) his wife sold off everything, and I honestly dont know what happened to the charts he had. But as I recall in talking with him, the first through the 8th to 10th generation of inbreeding (he practised pure inbreding) he obtained fairly good results off of the birds. Then again in the 14th through the 17th he again obtained excellant results. the birds appeared to be faster and stronger than previous generations. after this he would get hit and miss results up until about the ...... I think it was almost the 30th generation......when again for several generations he would get outstanding results. now mind you he maintained almost 50 breeding pairs, (all were related and he could tell you exactly what generation of cross they were and could acuratly tell you how the youngsters would perform and at what distances) He would raise up almost 200 youngsters, just to produce a flying youngbird team of approx. 60 birds each year. 

For me thats just not good odds, when you have to breed that many youngsters, to only have 60 or so left for the first race. 

Now mind you, I practise both inbreding (mostly linebreeding actually) and outcrossing. I bred a total of 64 birds this year, to date I still have 63 left at this point in the training. The one bird I lost was off of an experimental breeding, (a total outcrossing)and it was lost off of the loft. Its nest mate is still here and is doing well. It will be interesting to see if the nestmate is still here at the end of the season. But as you've both said, part of the fun is in seeing if all our calculations for breeding pan out in the long run.


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## re lee

I agree there. A person should look at there breeders results and allways phase out the birds that do not pass on there quality. Then youngbirds do not have to be breed in such large numbers. 50 pair in the breeding loft is alot to build around anyway. And which pair produces the best and which pair is number 50 in the different lines. And haveing 50 pair Of breeders What made those birds so good they needed to go to the breeding loft. Its hard enough to ever raise Or but 1 key bird to build around. 50 pairs would mean several different family lines around several different key birds. I would say at least 5 key birds. even up to 10. Thats a large number in the same loft. Sure it happens but Often you will see the it was over a large number of years. Of racing and testing birds. to produce 5 to 10 prepotent. That can produce bird after bird that can make a win. A person can start with 2 to 3 pair. And then buy 1 pair to add for say the next three years. To get up to 6 pair. of fine stock. NOT really spend more money sometimes as the person that getts several pair And has to keep buying to find the right birds To go forward with. And do well. ITS not how many pair you have its How many pair you have can breed the type of birds you need. You say you are flying a cross course. Birds have to be breed that can buck the cross winds. And not skirt to far in the arc. I would say a wide frontal tapered to a shorter backed bird. So the bird does not tire as soon. You have to look at each bird type on its performance. When we change flight course We change set needs. Around the clock flying Does not really make better birds. But makes for different types Needed. So blending that type where a bird can fly both good and harder courses Has to be balanced out. trying to maintain a speed balance Alot of things go into the breeding loft that way in on results.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> OK , the crosses in the first generation were not as fast as your fastest inbreds, take the best of the crosses and cross them in again, so your flying a 3/4 - 1/4 cross. If your results are like mine have been you'll find these birds will be just as fast if not a little faster then your original blood, they will also have more stamina, they will also be able to be flown further distances and for more weeks in succession before having to rest.
> 
> Also, I knew a flier over 20 years ago that did nothing but inbred his birds... he had the formula worked out and could tell you in what generations his birds would perform and what generations would not. After his death (I was in the army at the time) his wife sold off everything, and I honestly dont know what happened to the charts he had. But as I recall in talking with him, the first through the 8th to 10th generation of inbreeding (he practised pure inbreding) he obtained fairly good results off of the birds. Then again in the 14th through the 17th he again obtained excellant results. the birds appeared to be faster and stronger than previous generations. after this he would get hit and miss results up until about the ...... I think it was almost the 30th generation......when again for several generations he would get outstanding results. now mind you he maintained almost 50 breeding pairs, (all were related and he could tell you exactly what generation of cross they were and could acuratly tell you how the youngsters would perform and at what distances) He would raise up almost 200 youngsters, just to produce a flying youngbird team of approx. 60 birds each year.
> 
> For me thats just not good odds, when you have to breed that many youngsters, to only have 60 or so left for the first race.
> 
> Now mind you, I practise both inbreding (mostly linebreeding actually) and outcrossing. I bred a total of 64 birds this year, to date I still have 63 left at this point in the training. The one bird I lost was off of an experimental breeding, (a total outcrossing)and it was lost off of the loft. Its nest mate is still here and is doing well. It will be interesting to see if the nestmate is still here at the end of the season. But as you've both said, part of the fun is in seeing if all our calculations for breeding pan out in the long run.


 Hello Again Lawman ! 

I appreciate your input. I like everyone else, have some set ideals. But, from my experience, the more flexable you are to new ideals, or points of view. The more likely, you just may learn something. Your 3/4 to 1/4 % ideals, have crossed my mind. I have "saved" selected specimins, from various matings over the years. Your post, confirms my thinking. 

I am happy for your "success" so far in YB training. Would you be willing to share with us your 1st Race Results, when they come out ? 

Your results to me indicate:

#1 Super Management / Super Birds

or

#2 Lack of any real challenge to this point.

The results so far, would indicate a very respectable showing. The race, after all is the real testing ground.


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## lawman

Hello again all,

My youngbird races dont start till middle of oct. so we've just started down the road, I dont want to burn them up before the races even start. Usually at this time I've lost several birds off the loft, ether from straight up stupid desease or by hawks. This year however like I said I've only lost the one. 

I'm looking forward to this years season and I'll be sure to post my results for all.

As for body types, your right on my course the birds need to be more stout with a shorter body build. hows the saying go, "Horses for courses", It all depends on the course your flying and the conditions your flying in as to the body type needed.


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## re lee

Good thing on the later season Is the weather will bi a little cooler. And the birds should be thru the heavy moult. Better feathered. But hawks will probably be moving in that time also. Around here youngbird season will start in about 2 to 3 weeks for most. Still will be warmer. Birds will not be thru the moult at first. It would be better for the birds if the season started at least say the last week of sept. But it does not. GOOD luck on the races


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## lawman

Yeah like all things the slightly different season for racing is both good and bad. As you said by starting later the birds have gone through a more full moult and the weather is cooler. However, last year we got hit hard by bad weather about half way through the season. Now mind you I'm in Southern California and we don't normally get enough snow to shut down our roads and freeways. but last year we had to cancel one race due to the bad weather and roads being closed down and several others were a close thing.

Course the guys back east and in the north deal with this all the time, but its abnormal weather for us here. So it allows us to have a later start for our youngbird season. 

I wish all good luck in the upcoming season.


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## agoodbird

*trentons*

I just started to raise racers again after getting out of show birds. i bought otto meyer trentons fron gary potts & oshaben trentons fron chuck oshaben. this young bird season i have 40 birds out in 8 different lofts to see what these birds can do ( not racing myself/work schedule can't train) .one loft that has been racing since the 60's i gave 6 trentons and 2 out of his 1st three races this year his firt bird was a trenton !so much for the speed birds !these birds supposed to be slow & long distance. it will be interesting to see how they will fly the longer old bird races . i also will be crossing some sions & gurnays in these birds . gurnays are hal conn/copper beach & sions are goirzio & skylake bloodline.as you see i like the old strains but they need to prove themselfs on the road to stay in my loft. agoodbird ( greg )


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## re lee

Old line that were managed right Are still good birds. BUT a person has to remember Most would have been out bred as the key person Has been gone along time. I used to like the gurnays. As they seemed to be a dependable breed. Not as many people raise them now.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Strain Indentification*

One of the things about the old line Trentons, is you can spot them from across the yard. Which is more then you can say for most "strains". The problem with this "strain" indentification, is that it really does not mean much.

A local guy has some beautiful Trentons, he has won some shows with them. Problem is, they can't fly worth a darn. He lost 98% of them on various training tosses. So, were these "Really" Trentons ? If this fancier says, "Trentons are no good for racing". Because his 10 pairs of pedigreed stock, can't produce a bird that can make it to the 1st race, what if anything, does this mean ?

And then we just go one step further, and say for a moment, it was some other strain. If the creator and name sake of the strain, died 75 years ago, what is the purpose of attaching that long ago breeder's name to the bird ??


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## re lee

That comes to a point Of past statements. Yes the breeding mark has changed on any group of birds as they left the original breeder. And the old line breed strains. Would have had to been out crossed. To other strains. At some point. A person that bred on selction. Trying to maintain a strain . Could keep performance up. BUT still the old line has to bring an out cross. So that old strain is base line strain. At best. Something about us americans. We set on keeping names. The pigeon it just knows its a pigeon. We call it a sion a janssen And such. We start with a foundation and build from there. ITS the foundation that keeps a strong program. Just as the foundation to our houses. If its weak. The house settles and we have problems. But at best. There are people that can put a mark on there birds that take them forward. Maintaining a certion value from the past. In other countries they take that persons name of a line. Here they do not as much. So strain names stay intact. when they should change to at least. Add that persons name to the strain. As really there is no purebred old line familys left. Just maintained carryers of thats set value. If your lucky to find them. And we can not go by ped, Of past strains. WE better go by ped of the performers of those past strains. Other wise. It may say its a bird of this or that strain. BUT it can not fly around the block. There are alot of different pigeons to be had. Thers some good ones Then theres just a few great ones. That just a few people have. From those great ones Is where the next great ones will be raised. So we seek out the right breeder. To find that right bird. Strains are born from just a few birds that made the person a winner in the race circle. The others well they were just pigeons. Even though on paper it said they were a such and such strain. It better say how the bird performed. Then it means something. I better shut my statements down. Or I will carry on and on.


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## lawman

All any person can say with certanty is that they are breeding from stock that originated from the Trentons, Janssens, Gurneys, Waterhouse or Torrekan beckaerts, ect. Once you obtain the birds and begin to breed and fly them. You begin changing the base bloodline by the very choices you make in breeding and flying selections. By this I mean that your selections for breeding purposes almost certainly are not going to be the same as the original founder of the bloodline. Over time the birds change and become the type of bird that flys your course for your area, be that into headwinds or tailwinds. The birds that can compete the best on your course are almost certainly going to be the ones that sooner or later make it into the stock loft. In the case of my location the birds most commanly have to comfront a combination of headwinds and crosswinds. Its only the occasional storm front that brings in tailwinds. Thus the birds that tend to perform the best have a more pear shaped body. The longer cast birds tend to go by the way side on this course. however if I'm flying from the north course instead of the east course the conditions change and the longer cast body has a distict advantage.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lawman said:


> All any person can say with certanty is that they are breeding from stock that originated from the Trentons, Janssens, Gurneys, Waterhouse or Torrekan beckaerts, ect.


Hello Lawman,

Depending on the example, a person can't even say they own direct birds from the master. More likely, many owners, breeders, and generations are between the current owner, and the master himself. Which makes any reference to the orginal master, a rather pointless excersize, don't you think ?

Ah yes...but then there are the commercial considerations. The orginal master, could have died in the 1940's or earlier, but one might get a better price for his birds, if he places the orginal master's name on his product. Remember the famous quote from the circus guy ?


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## re lee

Hit the nail on the head there Warren Poeple sell a name. And it is just like name brand clothes or othere items names sell. To bad when it does not work we can not go to the return line. Because sometimes its a year or 2 befor we relize the birds do not help make a program.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Where are your results Lawman*



lawman said:


> Hello again all,
> 
> My youngbird races dont start till middle of oct. so we've just started down the road, I dont want to burn them up before the races even start. Usually at this time I've lost several birds off the loft, ether from straight up stupid desease or by hawks. This year however like I said I've only lost the one.
> 
> I'm looking forward to this years season and I'll be sure to post my results for all.
> 
> As for body types, your right on my course the birds need to be more stout with a shorter body build. hows the saying go, "Horses for courses", It all depends on the course your flying and the conditions your flying in as to the body type needed.


Hello Lawman,

After your ideals on breeding, I was really hoping you would share your race results that you promised.  

Earlier in this thread, you said you started with 64 birds, and only lost 1 in training. How many of the 63 made it through all the races ? Were all your winners crosses ? Did the races confirm your breeding ideals ?

My race results are posted under the "United Pigeon Combine" for the world to see, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I remain convinced, that the best advice is to keep your breeders inbred, and cross them with other inbred lines for racing material.


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## re lee

I would say through out the history of pigeon keeping. Both in show type or flying Type. A solid foundation of family built birds have prevailed over and thru the years. Chance has come for short spurts by luck of the cross. But then gone in a flash when it can not be reproduced. Out crossed family lines to other family lines can and have improved over all lines in the past and will so in the future. But that is agin through the controled breeding of family crossed birds. And yes a person can get this and that put it together and build a line of birds. IT takes time but can be done. BUT when solid base line birds are avalible To get and can set a foundation program. Its better to spend a little more get fewer to start with and have a faster more productive program. AS real truth goes it takes years to get a consistant program goeing. And years more when starting at a unknown starting point. Knowing background performance of different lines enables output ideas on the cross. As inbred birds are managed for desired qualities. The are also managed to keep strenghs in a line by bringing in the desireed family out cross of the same line. That being The same strain but different family line. Then when looking for total out cross. You can find lines that have some of the same foundation strain in there makeup. That being a distant relation but total cross in strain. Bringing back finer points and of setting the undesired needs. Agin that takes test mating to top loft birds working on setting that outcross in with the exsisting family line. AND hard testing the performance of the youngbirds raised to see where those birds fit for future breeding of the extended line to inbrred the points needed to gain in the generations to come. Each person sets a mark on there birds. Making a improved or backwards step in an esisting strain. HOPE is to improve If the key is there to do so. That prepotent bird that so many need to find. And so few know what to look for to find it. That 1 bird builds the winning family breeding hopefully other keys to the puzzle. AND when lucky enough that top loft has a small handful of key birds in which several families are built. AND hold the cross point right in the loft for many years to come. The breeding loft is and allways should be the top of the line. The flying loft is the testing area Keeping the top flyers taking them through several seasons watching there performance. There brother and sisters performance. AND there parents perfomance in productions Of percentage of producing birds that can perform. Then introduce back into the breeding loft that certion bird that has proved it will enhance the family line That has been built. HARD work doing it right. BUT my how that pay off comes ten fold in time. THATS why just a hand full of people reach what I call the top. AND people all over come to them because they know they can find birds that will not only improve there results. But can trust the fact that those few people maintain only quality birds that earned there place in the loft. Were not there for just selling or keeping. And when purchased yes you pay more. BUT you know you payed for what you got. NOT what was just a pedigree that did nothing when bred. NO I think warren is on his way to be a breeder that will be trusted and do the racing pigeon world some good. I say this as Over the time here on pigeons . com. I have shared threads and posts. A email or 2. With him. AND can say he is clearly working towards a strong line of birds. That by its self says if a person enjoys the hobby. knows where they need to try and take the birds to get there best results Has to build from a foundation of quality birds. Take them forward to there needs. keep the small number of top birds raised offer to others for sell only birds that you the owner have or are will to have used yourself and grade them down to the lower performance. AND not sell those as papered birds to misguided people. BUT offer them as starter birds. in which many will still be better then others have. I had to give the birds up BUT I am glad to see people like Warren and others keep the pigeon hobby alive and respectful. And what I said on this post is my veiws on building and maintaining a strong loft and it just takes the desire to do it slow and steady. We all can not be winners. BUT we can all try to enjoy the birds and build them to a better point level thenwhen we started out. That mark will carry over to new and future people that we help and meet through the many years of enjoyment that pigeon keeping brings us. I guess pigeon raiseing is a art that just develops into a painting in which we have the brush to make it great And any great painting took time. BUT is remembered for ever when it stands out for the world to see.Those top breeders are the ones that have those great paintings in which we all learn from. And those paintings are just a pigeon to some uneducated people.But be it race horses. to race cars. It takes thought and study to improve build and win. Pigeons are no different a great hobby yes . But further a mark that a person makes while studying learning about that little bird we know as a pigeon. And 100 years from now. The few that worked hard names will still be spoken. still learned from. And yes still more people keeping pigeons as pets as racers as show birds ect. Thanks to that little bird with so many different faces that crawls first into the mind and heart of a child or adult and sticks with them.


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## lawman

Hello Warren, 

Trust me I don't hide from anyone......I thought about giving my reply by private e-mail to save some embarrassment…. but since you chose to do this publicly here goes. After some problems caused by members of my own Combine and at home, I’m not really in the mood to be overly nice…… I’m sure your words here were meant in a jesting manner and not as a personal attack, so I’ll explain.

First of all, my oldest son age 11yrs, he has been very active in helping me with our birds and in fact has two pairs of his own. One pair are Demon blood from Hawk Bait lofts in Northern California the Other is a mix, the cock is a inbred grandson to the Blue Fox from Kahn Lofts and the hen is from an inbred family down out of Ganus’ Godfather line. My son picked out the bird himself that he sent to the AU youth race. He chose one youngster out of the mixed pair to send. He took 18th place with his bird. When he got the bird home approx one month after the race its 10th flights were only half way in. Not bad for a crossed bird that apparently flew on blood flights.

Now shortly after this bird was sent to the race, my son was diagnosed with a very rare form of stage three bone cancer. Had the original diagnoses been correct my son was given less than 5yrs to live. Almost a third of patients die within the first year. Its called Osteoblastic Osteosarcoma (if I spelled it correctly). Up until about 10 years ago if this disease presented in the arms or legs the method used to get rid of it, was to remove the offending appendage. In my sons case it presented in the nasal cavity behind the right eye. Kind of hard to remove the head huh….

Now while this was going on a person whom up until this time I had considered a friend and member of my combine began causing problems. Now mind you if someone wants to have a friendly bet with other members of his club or combine as to who will win….well that’s up to them, I could really care less. I was presented with proof that this members club had mandatory betting and as Combine president I confronted him on it. At approx the same time, I was presented with information that my combine was illegally operating as a NON-profit organization here in California. 

Now as far as the Combine was concerned they didn’t want to be bothered with any of this, they chose to ignore the fact that they were operating illegally and refused to do anything about the mandatory gambling. As my handle suggests I'm a police officer here in So Cal. and had I chose to the offending parties would have gone to jail. Basically I was told by members of the combine that my opinion on these issues or any other’s didn’t matter. I chose to take a more diplomatic route and presented the information to the AU with apparent negative results…… SO, I did the only thing I could do……I resigned as Combine President and quit the Combine. Now to the particular combine’s credit they have since fixed the problems with the State. As to the mandatory gambling who knows and quite frankly I'm no longer am a member of this Combine so I don’t care, it’s between them and the AU.

Now as for my son, He was sent to Children’s Hospital in Los Angeles, They performed an operation that to say the least left me very wary about the outcome. They opened up the front part of his skull, moved the frontal lobes of the brain out of the way then went down into the nasal cavity and removed a bone tumor that had a circumference of 4cm. roughly the size of a golf ball. They performed the reconstructive surgery at the same time and were able to save his right eye in the process (he now has 20-20 vision again). The tumor was tested after it was removed and it was stage one cancer, the experts are still trying to determine the exact type of cancer. The good news is the entire tumor was removed and at this point all the follow up exams show he is cancer free at this time. He will have to go in for follow up exams each year probably for the rest of his life…..Now, I’m not an overly religious man…..I had it shoved down my throat as a youth…..but I firmly believe that if it had not been for the grace of god and the skill he gave the surgeons my son would not be here today. It’s been approx. three months since the operation and he’s back in school full time and making almost straight A’s. The Doctors say that by next spring he can go back to playing baseball again (he’s the full time catcher for his little league team) and he will be at no more risk for injury than any other child.

Now as for the birds, I have culled a few of them that I didn’t think were up to par…..the rest are restless and will be ready for old birds in spring……More to come on that later.

Again Warren I’m sure your words were meant in jest……. It’s just been a rough several month’s on my family and I’m not in much of a jesting mood and haven’t been for some time….. As things here continue to settle back into a more normal routine I’ll begin posting more regularly again. Until then I wish all well, especially with the upcoming holidays.

Lawman




SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Lawman,
> 
> After your ideals on breeding, I was really hoping you would share your race results that you promised.
> 
> Earlier in this thread, you said you started with 64 birds, and only lost 1 in training. How many of the 63 made it through all the races ? Were all your winners crosses ? Did the races confirm your breeding ideals ?
> 
> My race results are posted under the "United Pigeon Combine" for the world to see, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I remain convinced, that the best advice is to keep your breeders inbred, and cross them with other inbred lines for racing material.


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## re lee

Lawman pigeons aside You have alot going on with your life and family now. Thats more important then anything else. Im am very sorry to hear about your son. And do hope he recoverys totaly without any future problems. A person can not say I know how you feel. Because we are not you. But i want to extend my concerns that you have a bright out look ahead I hope and keep your sons needs a happy moment of recovery. Sincere hopes to your family Robert


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## Skyeking

Hi lawman,

I just want to say I'm sorry for everything you have been going though, and I'm sending you my best wishes & prayers for your sons complete recovery. I wish you and yours a very happy holiday!


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## TerriB

Lawman, you are to be commended for taking the high road as you did. What wonderful a example for your children. After the emotional roller-coaster you have been through, I wish you a holiday as special as you are!


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## TAWhatley

Hi Lawman,

I, too, am so very sorry for your son's health problems and hope that he will continue to do well and have a clean bill of health soon. You are to be commended for standing up for the right things with your club/combine as difficult as that may have been to do.

Hoping that you and your family have a joyous holiday season.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Hello Lawman,

First of all, thank you for your public service. I wondered if you were in law enforcement. Second of all, our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

My intention was for some good natured ribbing. With what you have been going through, I am sure that you have alot on your mind. Please take care.


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## agoodbird

*vermeyens*

Hi , i have been looking for vermeyens and seems like nobody races them any more. Does anybody still have this old strain ?


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## lawman

Sorry but I hadn't heard of them in a very long time (other than in some old books and magazines) I don't know of anyone who has them anymore.

Lawman


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## Pikachu23739

re lee said:


> If you had a choice of the best racing homers in the world. What would you choose and why That line. And what would make that line better for you then you already have Or will be getting.


*I would want a white homer because I really like yellow because it is my fav. color but I don't know if they got the color yellow.*


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## re lee

Yes there are plenty of yellow homers out there now days.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Plenty of views and ideas....*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Hill Family Loft,
> 
> You raise some very good points.
> 
> A "Brand" name on a bird, does not make it more then average.
> 
> A "Pretty" pedigree does not mean, that a bird is better then average.
> 
> However, a "Family" or "Strain", which ever term you care to use, is very important in my view, when it comes to breeding. A single cock or hen, which wins one important race, may not have been the best bird in the race that day. When there are 40 or 50 birds on the drop, and seconds seperate dozens of birds, was the 1st bird clocked, really the best canidate for breeding ?
> 
> Now if parents, grand parents, great grand parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. have all won races, then I feel real good about those family genes. You have to look at the bird in your hand, and judge it according to what you as a breeder are trying to do. If, this is backed up by the bird preforming well in the races, so much the better.
> 
> My thinking is that Great birds, come from Great Stock. The more Great Stock within the family tree, the more likely these genes will be passed on. The old...the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree theory. The pedigree, is just one of the tools. I personally, would prefer a proven close family line, then a collection of various winners, from various sources. Which would produce all types and styles and quality of birds.


 This was my view last summer, and in reading it again, I still think it is true. But, I am only offering my thoughts on the subject. I think this particular thread provides some valuable insight into the way people approach the breeding aspect of this sport.

I am bringing this thread back up to the forefront, because for the new person starting out, it may help to see the various ideas that people have. And perhaps it might help in the way you plan your loft's genetic future.


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## hilltop

be very carefull,,,,linebreeding IS a form of inbreeding,,


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## spirit wings

hilltop said:


> be very carefull,,,,linebreeding IS a form of inbreeding,,


thread is from 2006......


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## hilltop

agoodbird, a great post,


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## NayNay

> Best of the best. is made in your loft. Someone elses best is theres. We all help and learn through shareing of the birds. And trying to develop our line. Birds today will bring the birds of the future. Maybe not so different from past birds. But managed right at least as good. The breeder is the artist. the bird is the painting. And every good artist is remembered. and people want a good painting . No matter what the price. So old line strains live on in memory. And new lines with new names. Will become old. But remembered. Will your name be there. Its up to you. Your mark on the birds will be the stroke of the brush. And perhaps 50 years from now. people will still remember.
> Reply With Quote


I am new to all this and am learning so much from this discussion- Thanks to re lee for starting this lively thread- and for the above quote that so eloquently captures the spirit of the sport, and the reality of breeding animals that can reproduce like rabbits!


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## rpalmer

*Hawkeye v8 on windows 10*

Check out this support ticket on the Hawkeye web site. It deals (?) with a problem. HAWK-O4XY3K3NR7


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## beachwood45789

Hi Rpalmer, why are you posting a thread from 2005 thats 13 years a go, post something new. Beachwood


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## wildcat hunter

rpalmer said:


> Check out this support ticket on the Hawkeye web site. It deals (?) with a problem. HAWK-O4XY3K3NR7


Sorry I'm not with it, what is a support ticket ? I tried to find it but I have no idea of what to look for. 

I went through this thread from post #1. Some interesting conversation on it. 
The 2 biggest contributors are not posting anymore. What happened to the Smith Family Loft guy and re lee ?


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