# my new pigeon



## APF_LOFT

i have this new pigeon a capuchin again i want to know the correct color of my bird
and is the hood of the capuchin is dominant or recessive? 
i want to experiment crossing it to a oriental frill. any comment about that crossing?


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## rudolph.est

APF_LOFT said:


> i have this new pigeon a capuchin again i want to know the correct color of my bird
> and is the hood of the capuchin is dominant or recessive?
> i want to experiment crossing it to a oriental frill. any comment about that crossing?


The hood of these birds is just a selected form of the crest gene as far as I know. In this sense, the hood is a rather elaborate shell crest. Crest is a simple recessive. But I am not sure what causes the difference between shell and peak crests. I think a second recessive might be responsible. I assume getting back the show quality hood after cross breeding would be quite difficult.

The bird you pictured looks like it is a grizzle (or tortoiseshell as they are sometimes called). Otherwise it could also possibly be almond / qualmond, but I doubt it. I do not know which genes are present in the Cappuchine breed.

If you want to cross to an oriental, why not! It is always interesting to see what they look like, sometimes in very unexpected ways.

If the oriental is a blue blondinette (colored head and tail), you'll probably get blue and blue grizzle birds with short beaks, with some form of peak or shell crest. You will not see any of the frill and frill stencil (lacing / spangling), though you may see bronze patterned areas (the Modena bronze part of toy-stencil), though grizzle may interfere with that somewhat. You'll probably also get baldheads, white flights.


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## Henk69

That's what I thought but when I crossed capucin with smoothheaded old german magpie tumblers the youngsters have a small crest (halfsider pics recently posted).
Also I thought that the flattened sides would be dominant but they turned out pretty normal.


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## rudolph.est

I made a homer archangel cross this year, and lo and behold I go 2 crested babies, and two plain-head. I'll have to test mate he homer cock to one of his daughters to be sure, but this probably means he carries the gene for crested, even though the homers of Dutch heritage shouldn't (most SA homers are mostly of Janssen ancestry).

Maybe your german magpie tumbler is also carrying crested due to an out-cross many generations ago. I is possible for the recessive gene to go un-expressed for many generations, especially when not closely in-breeding or line-breeding.


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## Henk69

I'll pay attention while gathering the statistics for the halfsiders.


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## Henk69

Well, 2 crested, 1 not crested. 
Spot on...


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> Well, 2 crested, 1 not crested.
> Spot on...


Not quite enough data for statistical analysis, I would say


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## Henk69

If you see one leprechaun, the proof is in the pudding... 
Can't imagine the capucin being het for a dominant crest gene, but then I couldn't imagine the magpie to carry crest.


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## APF_LOFT

i will breed that bird soon to a oriental frill. just wait for the result of my breeding.

and thanks again for replies


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## NZ Pigeon

It looks blue with Kite bronze, and as Rudolph has said it is def. grizzle. Looks Het grizzle meaning one dose. Baldhead pied also.


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## spirit wings

I bred jacobin with non crested breed and they had small crests that look pretty funny or have cowlicks... the crossbreeding usually cancels out allot of what is unique about a purebreed pigeon.


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## rudolph.est

spirit wings said:


> I bred jacobin with non crested breed and they had small crests that look pretty funny or have cowlicks... the crossbreeding usually cancels out allot of what is unique about a purebreed pigeon.


You say that your Jacobin F1's showed crests? But crests are supposed to be recessive, meaning the F1's shouldn't show any crest at all...

You probably could write a paper about the dominant crest gene that you found in your Jacobins


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> You say that your Jacobin F1's showed crests? But crests are supposed to be recessive, meaning the F1's shouldn't show any crest at all...
> 
> You probably could write a paper about the dominant crest gene that you found in your Jacobins


I have heard that Jacobin crests are incomplete dominant from a few different sources.

Most crest types are recessive but not the Jacobin crest


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## spirit wings

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have heard that Jacobin crests are incomplete dominant from a few different sources.
> 
> Most crest types are recessive but not the Jacobin crest


that is interesting, I did not know about the dominance in jacobins or lack there of of creasts in other breeds...


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## APF_LOFT

to bad my pigeon is not jacobin.


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## APF_LOFT

rudolph.est said:


> The bird you pictured looks like it is a grizzle (or tortoiseshell as they are sometimes called). Otherwise it could also possibly be almond / qualmond, but I doubt it. I do not know which genes are present in the Cappuchine breed.



what are the gene involved in tortoiseshell?


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## Print Tippler

Torts are a bronze gene, t pattern, and hetero grizzle. Hetero recessive red can also be there but doesn't have to.


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## APF_LOFT

is bronze dominant or recessive?


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## Print Tippler

I don't know bronzes very well. There are about 8 different bronzes (link on it below) I believe the majoririty if not all are dominant genes with some being incomplete dominant. I think some may be hard to discriminate. Thanks for bring me back to that thread though cause I think I just made a ruling on mine  

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/types-of-bronze-48660.html


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## APF_LOFT

thanks for the link.


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## NZ Pigeon

APF_LOFT said:


> what are the gene involved in tortoiseshell?


Blue T pattern with Kite bronze and Het grizzle make the best tortoiseshell phenotype. Kite is An autosomal Dominant gene.


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## Print Tippler

i think het recessive red is preferred too. Your bird might not be kite and could be something. By definition it would be called a tort but really torts should look much different. Heres a few i pulled off a website

http://www.nwoetc.com/news_item.lasso?id=17

the site states 



> Genetically tortoise shells in Wests are grizzle kites. Kites are the result of a combination of kite bronze and blue T-pattern. The richer more bronze looking kites have other factors enhancing their color. One gene for recessive red enhances the bronze color. Most of the better kites also seem to carry the dirty factor. Grease quill also typically enhances the color in the kites by adding good luster. Many of the kites also are sooty. Whether sooty enhances the kite bronze is not known for sure but it at least does not seem to be detrimental. In addition there are probably other unknown factors also enhancing the bronze appearance. All the factors that enhance the bronzing in the kites also appear to enhance the color in the tortoise shells.


Dirty makes it better and maybe sooty. Really need to get my pair i wanted mated so i can have some **** sooty, **** dirty that i can pair up to some hetero recessive red t pattern kites. Seems like i would hit with those.


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## rudolph.est

There are my reasons that a grizzle may show red/bronze.

In certain breeds (like the wests) these tortoiseshells are created by bronze, but that isn't the only way to breed them. Some grizzles show red on their feathers even when no bronze genes are involved. For instance, I have a blue bar grizzle homer that shows bronze flecking in her shield, and there are no bronzes in her ancestry.


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## thepigeonkey

I would be very interested to see if the capuchin crest is partial dominant like jacobin crest.
I bred an arc angel with crested high flier and offspring were all crested but no pointed crests just high flier crests.
one dose of jacobin crest can inhance shell crests like this white frillback


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## rudolph.est

If I remember correctly Jacobins were selectively bred from old dutch cappuchines to produce the show birds we see today. The only real difference is carriage and feather length.

Dina Mergeani states on his website that Jacobins have a gene that causes their feathers to be longer than usual, and that the crests are probably the same, but that the Jacobin's longer feathers combined with the crest causes the distinctive Jacobin mane.

As peak and shell crests go, shell is dominant to peak. I am not sure whether this is caused by a second gene at a different locus or by a second allele of crest though. I would guess a different gene at a second locus, since I bred F1 archangel x homers with both peak and [weak] shell crest, which would not be possible if the effect was caused by a second allele.


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