# Indoor pet pigeon - pre adoption questions



## CooCooBird

Recently I adopted a pair of diamond doves. While doing my research on how to look after them, I was thrilled to find out that pigeons can be kept indoors as pets!

I've always loved watching the pigeons outdoors since childhood, I could sit in a park for a long time and watch their behaviour and their beautiful colours. Nowadays on winter mornings, they line up along the railing of my 16th floor balcony sunning themselves. But I always thought they were outdoor pets who are kept in lofts, and that they need a lot of space to fly. 

So, I've been researching the needs of an indoor pet pigeon - cage, foods, supplements, as well as exercise and taming and what they're like as pets. I've already bought a lot of the needed supplies for my doves. I don't want to tame the diamond doves as house pets because they're so small and difficult to catch when they get out of their cage, and I'm afraid they could get tangled up in something or land in something like a deep box, and get lost or hurt. Instead I've given them a large aviary cage where they can get their flight time safely. 

For a pigeon I plan to build a cage out of steel grid cubes, the kind normally used for cube storage shelving. I've built cages like this for a variety of pets, from a Flemish Giant rabbit to rats. I've been looking at photos of other people's pigeon cages for ideas. It shouldn't be too hard to create flat perches and ramps out of extra cubes covered in wood or coroplast, and planks of lumber. As far as I can tell, the bar spacing on the grid cubes should be adequate for a medium to large sized pigeon. 

My biggest questions are about the pigeons themselves. I get the impression that if I want a tame bird that's attached to humans, I should just adopt one, is this correct? Or can a pair bond with a human? I'm willing to adopt a pair if it's better for them to have two. Some of the available pigeons are already paired. 

If I get just one, would a female make a better pet? I've read males can display hormonal behaviours such as aggression and sexual behaviour. I know females have their own issues such as requiring extra calcium for egg laying. That's not a problem, I have button quail who lay eggs daily and they get plenty of calcium supplement daily. 

Another question is about the breed. I'm not really fussy about looks. Right now in my area, several breeds are available, from homers, to tumblers and tipplers, to fantails, to mixed or unidentified breeds. Does it matter which breed I adopt? Is a bird bred for racing, homing or "trick flight" (rollers etc.) not a good choice as an indoor pet because they need to fly outdoors? Or does it matter? Are there any breeds which would not do well as indoor pets? Which breeds are best suited to be indoor pets? 

I do live in an apartment, it's roomy and pretty open (the kitchen, living and dining rooms are basically all one room), but it's still not as roomy as a detached house.


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## cwebster

Pigeons can be good indoor pets but they are messy. You have to be willing to use a shop vac a lot. Would not keep the bird where you sleep. One bird will see you as their mate. Our first pigeon was an injured feral who bonded with us. Females do lay eggs but you can swap them for fake eggs. We have six pigeons, including four females and two males. I think females are easier to tame but some people here just love their male pigeons too. If you can find a nonreleasable burd from a shelter or or from a racing club breeder who no longer wants the bird, you may be saving a life. I don't think breed matters if he or she will be a pet although the best and most beautiful birds will always be your bird or birds.  Welcome to Pigeon Talk.


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## CooCooBird

cwebster said:


> Pigeons can be good indoor pets but they are messy. You have to be willing to use a shop vac a lot. Would not keep the bird where you sleep. One bird will see you as their mate. Our first pigeon was an injured feral who bonded with us. Females do lay eggs but you can swap them for fake eggs. We have six pigeons, including four females and two makes. I think females are easier to tame but some people here just love their male out pigeons too. If you can find a nonreleasable burd from a shelter or or from a racing club breeder who no longer wants the bird, you may be saving a life. I don't think breed matters if he or she will be a pet although the best and most beautiful birds will always be your bird or birds.  Welcome to Pigeon Talk.


Thanks for the welcome! 
Mess isn't a problem. I have a huge flight cage full of 6 budgies, they aren't tame but they still manage to scatter feathers, dust, seed hulls etc. Before them I had an African Grey for 11 years, he spent most of his time outside of the cage. I do own a shop vac though, and it gets plenty of use. I also have a Flemish Giant house rabbit, she's pretty good at using her litter box but sometimes she leaves a few little "presents" outside of the box. 

I thought about trying pigeon pants, we'll see. I have an older chihuahua who can't hold it until we get outside anymore, I tried diapers on her but they just pull them off or chew them. I suspect something similar could happen with pigeon pants. Plus the dog diaper covers are a pain to wash all the time. Actually it's possible that the diaper covers I have, which have suspenders, might even work on a pigeon, since my dog is so tiny. 

I've been watching the shelters around here, and they don't have any pigeons or doves. There's no pigeon rescue - I even called the two main city shelters here (Toronto) and they didn't know of any pigeon rescue here, other than a wildlife rescue which doesn't adopt out to the public. I try to rescue my pets whenever I can. The good news is that there are several breeders around here who are trying to pare down their stock before winter. So, there are a number of breeds available. I'm not too fussy about colour or appearance. There are a couple of breeders advertising pure white pigeons that look like homers or racers. If they're "retired" or surplus release birds I'd be willing to adopt one if it's not too old. There are a lot of breeders from the Middle East around here, they breed Afghan or Indian or other birds from that part of the world. Most are either racers or high flyers. Usually when I see a new breed I have to look it up (if there's any info on it).

I will see if I can find a female, since I'm a beginner at taming pigeons. I've tamed many parrot species in the past, but I'm guessing pigeons are different to tame. I'll keep doing research to find out more about how to tame and bond with a pigeon. I know I can easily get fake eggs, and I always supplement my hen birds with daily calcium/d3 in their water or food. 

Re keeping the bird where I sleep, is this a bad idea because of mess or dust? Or is it because they make a lot of noise early in the morning? I wasn't really planning on keeping it in my bedroom because I already keep my smallest birds there, diamond doves and button quail. I doubt there'd be enough space to add a big pigeon cage.


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## cwebster

Keeping the bird or any bird where you sleep can be a problem because of the white powdery scuff they produce. some people, including me, develop lung problems from constant exposure to pigeon powder so I suggest to people that they not sleep in the same room. I have to keep our birds outside now in a shed and use a mask but most people aren't as susceptible. Prevention is good. We didn't shop vac very much for years. Hope you find a lovely bird!


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## Jay3

I don't believe that lone pigeons are usually very happy. It is such a strong drive in them to pair up, and raise babies. It's what they live for. A lone pigeon in a human world will never have that need filled. They will often come to view their owner as a mate, as this is the best they can do. But that isn't normal or natural. And doesn't really fulfill their need for a mate. If a hen, she will start laying eggs, and when she does, she will have no partner to share nesting responsibilities with. So, she will be the only one to sit on the eggs 24/7. She will have no mate to relieve her and take his turn. Many used to having a pet pigeon that spends a lot of time out of cage with them, will have to learn that when she is on eggs for a few weeks every month, that she won't want to come out and spend time with them, as she doesn't want to leave her eggs. Also, some females can be so over the top with needing to be with you constantly, that they can drive you crazy. Not really much of a life for a pigeon all alone. They are much happier in pairs. Just doesn't seem fair to take a bird and give it that kind of life. Some will claim that their lone bird is happy. Did anyone ever ask the bird? They do the best with what they have and the life that is forced on them. People have lives, and can't be with the bird all the time. Sometimes life gets busy. But pigeons are very intelligent, and deserve more than sitting in a cage all day waiting for someone to find the time to spend with them. They are flock birds, and not made to be alone. Put yourself in the birds place. They really do belong with other birds.


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## cwebster

Pigeons do love being with other pigeons. They will bond with each other then. Our rescued feral could never be with other birds due to internal problems, xanthomas, that our avian expert vet said would kill her if she was stimulated in any way to reproduce, so she had to be a lone pigeon. Rescuing a nonreleasable bird like that who can bond with you could still give the bird a happy life. If they are healthy pigeons, they can be happier together. If it is a question of life or death, I think it is very much ok to have a lone bird and that you can make the bird very happy and let the bird live a very happy life with you. Would look around for a nonreleasable perhaps special needs pigeon...there are a lot out there needing special homes and people who will love them.


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## CooCooBird

Re adopting two pigeons, I have no problem with that at all, that was why I asked if it was better to have one or two. When I was growing up back in the seventies, conventional wisdom was that animals of any species make better pets if you only have one, because more than one would bond with each other and make poor pets. So one budgie, one rabbit, one cat etc. Since then I've found that social animals are much happier with their own kind, and can still make fine pets. I've also learned a lot from watching them interact with each other.

Also, for all of my life I've enjoyed watching pigeons outside. I find their behaviour fascinating and endearing. So, even if I'm not able to tame the pigeons I adopt, I'd still enjoy watching and listening to them. 

So, I'll adopt two of them. I've seen some pre-bonded pairs up for sale. If I don't get a bonded pair, is it easy to match a pigeon up with a new partner from a different breeder? Or are they fussy about partners, like some other bird species? (Button quail, I'm looking at you!)


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## Jay3

Most non-releasable birds can live with others. In the rare case that they cannot, then you do the best you can for them, but to say they are really happy? From whose perspective?
Just goes against nature. And try to remember that they do need attention and at least a couple of hours of out of cage time daily for exercise and company. They can live a long time, so it is a commitment. 
Sometimes people will realize after a while that they cannot be there enough for their pet pigeon, and that it would be happier with another bird around, and then they are trying to find a companion for their bird. 
We have had people come on here that have a hen who will not stop laying eggs, and they are asking for help because they know that eventually this is going to cause her health problems. The advice is often that the bird is viewing them as her mate, and is laying eggs for them. That they will have to stop holding and petting the bird, as this will stimulate her to lay more. So then the poor owner must back away from the attention they are used to giving the bird, and the bird is used to receiving daily. So now the poor bird is not getting the attention she is seeking from her owner, and probably doesn't understand why her viewed mate is now pretty much ignoring her. It just goes against nature. 
Anyway, people will have many different opinions and see it different ways, but before someone does that, I just try to make them view it from all angles, not just the one where the true needs of the pigeon aren't considered. Everyone is going to do what they want in the end anyway.


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## Jay3

CooCooBird said:


> Re adopting two pigeons, I have no problem with that at all, that was why I asked if it was better to have one or two. When I was growing up back in the seventies, conventional wisdom was that animals of any species make better pets if you only have one, because more than one would bond with each other and make poor pets. So one budgie, one rabbit, one cat etc. Since then I've found that social animals are much happier with their own kind, and can still make fine pets. I've also learned a lot from watching them interact with each other.
> 
> Also, for all of my life I've enjoyed watching pigeons outside. I find their behaviour fascinating and endearing. So, even if I'm not able to tame the pigeons I adopt, I'd still enjoy watching and listening to them.
> 
> So, I'll adopt two of them. I've seen some pre-bonded pairs up for sale. If I don't get a bonded pair, is it easy to match a pigeon up with a new partner from a different breeder? Or are they fussy about partners, like some other bird species? (Button quail, I'm looking at you!)


We were, I guess answering at the same time. You seem to have a pretty good feel for animals. Getting a mated pair, or 2 singles and pairing them up would be better for the birds. A lot of how friendly they will be depends on how they were handled or not handled, their age, a lot of things. Introducing 2 separate pigeons to each other isn't hard. A male and a female will usually pair up, if you go slow and give them time to know each other. 2 females can also get along well. The thing is in making sure that you know which gender you are getting. The person selling the birds is sometimes mistaken on gender. 2 males will often have problems. Also, depending on the birds and the owner, they can still become very friendly. The younger the birds, the easier it is to get them to trust you and become tame.


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## FredaH

I have three male and two female pigeons that currently sleep in my bedroom (aviary being built for the spring) and the feral males once mature are NOISY as hell, lol. Even the paired one who is currently egg sitting (dummy eggs have replaced the real ones) still coo's like crazy. Three hand reared ferals and two hand reared tumblers, the tumblers are far less noisy and make a purring sound rather than bellowing like the ferals. I cover the cages at night and close my blind and in the morning I creep about as quietly as I can in order to at least have my coffee before they start sounding off but if they hear a single sound they know I'm up and it starts. My bed is covered with a tarp and I literally spring clean every night when they all go back in their cages, no carpet on the floor and my bed is eighteen inches off the ground so it's easy to keep clean. I worry about the lung disease so I'm ott in keeping them clean - bathing regularly helps rid them of some of their dander and keeping them on puppy training pads makes cage cleaning easy and fast. I keep mine in indoor rabbit cages with a few bricks to stand on, nice and roomy and they can flap their wings. As I'm typing my lone male is on my knee pecking at my iPad, think he knows I'm talking about him and he's dancing away, trying to impress me I think, lol. They are honestly the most adorable pets I've ever had and I couldn't imagine being without any of them. They sit on me wherever I am, beautiful birds they are. I hope you enjoy your pigeons when you get them - in fact I know you will.


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## Jay3

Freda is a good pigeon Momma, and her babies are adorable. Yes, they can be nice to have around. They are funny, curious, and very intelligent. But they are flock birds. Each with their own personality. They are all different, sort of like having kids. LOL.


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## CooCooBird

It's too bad this board doesn't seem to allow clicking "like" on posts! Freda, I liked your post, very interesting and informative. 

Today I found a 44 inch wire dog crate on a freight auction website, for 70% off because there's a small crack on one corner of the plastic tray. That's easily fixed with a bit of duct tape. A bonus is that it has a hinge down the middle of the top so you can open half of it up. That should make it easier to let them have the run of the room with the top cage door open, and they can land on the closed half of the top. I'm going to build a bottom tray with higher walls out of coroplast (corrugated plastic) to keep the mess in. This crate also has narrower bar spacing, which is a bonus. I plan on building shelves and ramps from untreated wood. Do people use pine shavings for bedding or can they cause breathing issues? I just bought a 40 lb. bale which I mix with shredded paper to make bedding for some of my other pets. 

I went through the local pet ads again today, and found a couple of interesting breeds available. A guy is selling off his German Beauty Homers cheaply because he wants to switch to breeding show birds instead. I like the look of them. I could also get almond pairs, English fantails or Indian fantails. Then there are rollers, tipplers, tumblers, racing homers, "fancy" pigeons, etc. Are there any breeds or types which DO NOT make good pets? (That would help me to narrow it down a bit). I wonder if the tipplers and racing pigeons wouldn't get enough exercise living indoors, even with daily flight time. Of course there are other considerations, like age of the birds, availability of a m/f pair, health, how far I'd have to travel to pick them up, and of course cost. There's a breeder selling beautiful Indian fantails, they're all vaccinated, wormed, treated for lice - but they're also $100 per bird. 

Well, now that I have the cage arranged, I'm going to go through the ads I saved and narrow them down to the top contenders.


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## FredaH

Decisions decisions eh? Lol. I expect there are pros and cons with all of the breeds really. My tumblers are more shy than my ferals and even though they only know me as their mom they won't let me pick them up, they sit on me and preen or sleep but they're still timid of my touch - to put them to bed I have to wait till dusk and pick them up so as they can't see me because I wouldn't stress them out by chasing them to catch them. The ferals (mom and dad were wild ferals) let me pick them up, kiss their little heads and stroke their chests no problem, even giving them meds or trimming their claws doesn't make them fly off when I put them down - which I'm quite surprised at since their parents were wild and the tumblers parents were loft birds. 
Tbh house pigeons are fabulous, they are so bonded that I'm dreading the aviary being built because I don't know how they'll cope without the human traffic they have in my house. The door way is meshed and Velcro holds it firmly in place but I often go upstairs and they are sitting right by the door just waiting for their humans and as soon as you walk in they're on you - so adorable. I bet they'll only be in the aviary during the day and back in my room in the evening, I'll miss them terribly if they like it outside - they'll have to have sleep overs, ha ha. 
Good luck in your search and please let's know how you get on - I'm rather excited for you tbh.


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## Jay3

Indian Fan tails are beautiful birds, but if kept in a cage are likely to catch the tails on the wire of the cage. They will end up raggedy looking after a time. The homers would probably be fine with out of cage time to fly around. Some of the fancy breeds are calmer than some homers. 
You don't want to use a bedding with pigeons in a cage. They flap their wings for exercise and would send the bedding flying all over the house. They really don't need it. They are better off with something like Freda uses puppy pads and just changes them out daily. I use newspaper, cut to fit the cage, and put paper towels over that. I just change the paper towels out daily, unless they need more changing, and the newspaper when needed. I like the way they lay flat if you use the heavier paper towel like Bounty, rather then the very thin cheap ones. To me, I think they lay flat better than the pads, but just my opinion. I don't mind changing them out more often if needed because their are pretty cheap. You do want paper however, as it is much easier to check on the droppings and pick up on when there may be a problem with their health.


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## Jay3

FredaH said:


> Decisions decisions eh? Lol. I expect there are pros and cons with all of the breeds really. My tumblers are more shy than my ferals and even though they only know me as their mom they won't let me pick them up, they sit on me and preen or sleep but they're still timid of my touch - to put them to bed I have to wait till dusk and pick them up so as they can't see me because I wouldn't stress them out by chasing them to catch them. The ferals (mom and dad were wild ferals) let me pick them up, kiss their little heads and stroke their chests no problem, even giving them meds or trimming their claws doesn't make them fly off when I put them down - which I'm quite surprised at since their parents were wild and the tumblers parents were loft birds.
> Tbh house pigeons are fabulous, they are so bonded that I'm dreading the aviary being built because I don't know how they'll cope without the human traffic they have in my house. The door way is meshed and Velcro holds it firmly in place but I often go upstairs and they are sitting right by the door just waiting for their humans and as soon as you walk in they're on you - so adorable. I bet they'll only be in the aviary during the day and back in my room in the evening, I'll miss them terribly if they like it outside - they'll have to have sleep overs, ha ha.
> Good luck in your search and please let's know how you get on - I'm rather excited for you tbh.


I think it is individual to the bird how much they like handling and all. I have many different kinds and with them it is really individual, not because of breed. i
Freda, your ferals parents were feral, but they didn't really have an influence on the babies, as they never knew them or raised them. I have had the experience that babies turn out friendly when the parents are, and unfriendly when they are not. But that is because they watch how the parents relate to me. If they are not friendly, then the babies see me as a threat. If they come right to me and let me feed and handle them, then the babies pick up the idea that I'm good. Most pigeons will grow out of the wanting to be picked up stage eventually as they grow up. They prefer to come to you, as they please. They like it to be their idea. They are smart though and learn their names. You can call them and they will usually come to you.

I think you are going to miss them being around. You can always go outside and spend time with them in their aviary if it is a walk-in.


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## FredaH

The tumblers are still young at four months Jay and I'm hoping they will trust me more as they grow but they didn't know their parents and see the way the ferals react to me and they're still shy, little cuties though. So far the ferals have got more friendly the older they've got, Gully has always been a sweetheart and the boys - well they have become VERY friendly since they have been looking for a mate - I now know full well what's on Gideons mind when we play fight, he's fooling no one, lol. 
The aviary will definitely be a walk in one, I just hope they all get along because right now none of the boys will tolerate each other - the little tumbler male has a death wish I'm sure because he picks fights with both Gideon and Gabe since he's paired with Grace and once in a scrap neither of the fighters will back down. I have them out at different times now because Gabe has become defensive too since pairing with Gully. My birds are like spoilt little brattish kids but full of character none the less.


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## Jay3

FredaH said:


> The tumblers are still young at four months Jay and I'm hoping they will trust me more as they grow but they didn't know their parents and see the way the ferals react to me and they're still shy, little cuties though. So far the ferals have got more friendly the older they've got, Gully has always been a sweetheart and the boys - well they have become VERY friendly since they have been looking for a mate - I now know full well what's on Gideons mind when we play fight, he's fooling no one, lol.
> The aviary will definitely be a walk in one, I just hope they all get along because right now none of the boys will tolerate each other - the little tumbler male has a death wish I'm sure because he picks fights with both Gideon and Gabe since he's paired with Grace and once in a scrap neither of the fighters will back down. I have them out at different times now because Gabe has become defensive too since pairing with Gully. My birds are like spoilt little brattish kids but full of character none the less.


Never a dull moment is there? I think it's just individual. Maybe the older of your tumblers is a shy bird, and the other is just watching and following his example. That's possible. I have seen that with siblings before. Homers on the other hand are not normally very shy at all. And if they don't like something, they will be very quick to let you know. They see themselves as equals. No one is above them. LOL.They will stand up to you. I like them.


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## cwebster

Love hearing about different pigeons and their personalities and looks. Each is so wonderful yet different. I miss having them inside the house but spend a lot of time with them flying around the shed, with my mask on and changing my clothes and even bathing afterward. I miss having them in three rooms of the house. Hope you get some really great birds.


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## CooCooBird

Thanks again for all of the info! Re bedding, I should have known better. My diamonds are on paper towel with a layer of newspaper underneath. I have plenty of extra large puppy pads and newspaper, so bedding shouldn't be a problem. 

Now after going through all the ads I've saved, I think I have it down to three or four breeds or types. One thing occurred to me, is it best to adopt banded birds or does it matter? 

Re the fantails, I noticed in pics of them in their lofts that their tails do get tattered on the ends. My diamond doves have tattered tails and wing tips as well. I read somewhere that pigeons feel more secure if their cage is covered on three sides, is this correct? If yes, would it help to cover the inside of the cage with fleece, towels or some other material that would be less damaging to their feathers? I have a roll of fiberglass window screen that could do the job as well, and would offer better ventilation. It may take watching the birds inside the cage to see where their tails brush against, then covering those areas. I wonder how people who show fantails keep their tails from getting tattered? I found a breeder who's selling English Fantails for a reasonable price. I don't know why, but for some reason I find them beautiful and fascinating.

I also found a breeder who breeds Parlor Rollers. I read that they tumble on the ground or floor and they can't fly. I was watching YouTube videos of people rolling them on grass like a bowling ball. I was thinking they could make good indoor pets, since they need floor space as opposed to flying room. 

Someone else is offering coloured pigeon pairs, "fancy" and almond. In shape they look like "ordinary" pigeons (the kind you'd see in cities). I'm going to ask about their age, because I'm hoping to find birds less than a year old. 

Another breeder has a pair of red-gold birds, I don't know what breed they are. Here's a pic: 










Speaking of not knowing the breed - I found one ad with a bird that reminded me of a seagull. They didn't give any info on it, or a price. Pic, in case anyone wants to take a stab at identifying this one:










Finally, there are plenty of homers available. I'm guessing they're pretty common as pets? I can choose between the German Beauty homers, and "unspecified" homers. There are also high flyers, but I'm not sure they'd do well indoors. 

So now I'm going to be sending out a bunch of emails to the breeders asking for details, we'll see what happens from there.


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## Jay3

CooCooBird said:


> Thanks again for all of the info! Re bedding, I should have known better. My diamonds are on paper towel with a layer of newspaper underneath. I have plenty of extra large puppy pads and newspaper, so bedding shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Now after going through all the ads I've saved, I think I have it down to three or four breeds or types. One thing occurred to me, is it best to adopt banded birds or does it matter?
> 
> Bands are just proof of the age of the bird, as they have to be put on by like the 5th or 7th day after hatch. Later you can't get them on.
> 
> Re the fantails, I noticed in pics of them in their lofts that their tails do get tattered on the ends. My diamond doves have tattered tails and wing tips as well. I read somewhere that pigeons feel more secure if their cage is covered on three sides, is this correct? If yes, would it help to cover the inside of the cage with fleece, towels or some other material that would be less damaging to their feathers? I have a roll of fiberglass window screen that could do the job as well, and would offer better ventilation. It may take watching the birds inside the cage to see where their tails brush against, then covering those areas. *I wonder how people who show fantails keep their tails from getting tattered? *I found a breeder who's selling English Fantails for a reasonable price. I don't know why, but for some reason I find them beautiful and fascinating.
> 
> They don't keep them in cages. They are kept in a loft with more room.
> 
> 
> I also found a breeder who breeds Parlor Rollers. I read that they tumble on the ground or floor and they can't fly. I was watching YouTube videos of people rolling them on grass like a bowling ball. I was thinking they could make good indoor pets, since they need floor space as opposed to flying room.
> 
> Someone else is offering coloured pigeon pairs, "fancy" and almond. In shape they look like "ordinary" pigeons (the kind you'd see in cities). I'm going to ask about their age, because I'm hoping to find birds less than a year old.
> 
> Another breeder has a pair of red-gold birds, I don't know what breed they are. Here's a pic:
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> Speaking of not knowing the breed - I found one ad with a bird that reminded me of a seagull. They didn't give any info on it, or a price. Pic, in case anyone wants to take a stab at identifying this one:
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> Finally, there are plenty of homers available. I'm guessing they're pretty common as pets? I can choose between the German Beauty homers, and "unspecified" homers. There are also high flyers, but I'm not sure they'd do well indoors.
> 
> So now I'm going to be sending out a bunch of emails to the breeders asking for details, we'll see what happens from there.


Satinettes are adorable and known to be fairly easy to train. Here is a link with pictures.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sat...ybh9fQAhUL2IMKHRrKC74QsAQIGw&biw=1280&bih=887

I think rollers are nice, and they are small sized too which is nice. Not the kind that roll in the ground. The kind that fly.


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## JennyM

FredaH said:


> I have three male and two female pigeons that currently sleep in my bedroom (aviary being built for the spring) and the feral males once mature are NOISY as hell, lol. Even the paired one who is currently egg sitting (dummy eggs have replaced the real ones) still coo's like crazy. Three hand reared ferals and two hand reared tumblers, the tumblers are far less noisy and make a purring sound rather than bellowing like the ferals. *I cover the cages at night and close my blind and in the morning I creep about as quietly as I can in order to at least have my coffee before they start sounding off but if they hear a single sound they know I'm up and it starts.* My bed is covered with a tarp and I literally spring clean every night when they all go back in their cages, no carpet on the floor and my bed is eighteen inches off the ground so it's easy to keep clean. I worry about the lung disease so I'm ott in keeping them clean - bathing regularly helps rid them of some of their dander and keeping them on puppy training pads makes cage cleaning easy and fast. I keep mine in indoor rabbit cages with a few bricks to stand on, nice and roomy and they can flap their wings. As I'm typing my lone male is on my knee pecking at my iPad, think he knows I'm talking about him and he's dancing away, trying to impress me I think, lol. They are honestly the most adorable pets I've ever had and I couldn't imagine being without any of them. They sit on me wherever I am, beautiful birds they are. I hope you enjoy your pigeons when you get them - in fact I know you will.


LOL I laughed so hard reading your post! I though my feral was the only loud one but I guess I'm not alone! my case is a little different, he does not sleep in a cage so at around 7am he wakes up, preens himself, poops, eats and then flies off to my bed and sleeps next to me until I get up! once I'm up it starts!! lol


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## FredaH

JennyM said:


> LOL I laughed so hard reading your post! I though my feral was the only loud one but I guess I'm not alone! my case is a little different, he does not sleep in a cage so at around 7am he wakes up, preens himself, poops, eats and then flies off to my bed and sleeps next to me until I get up! once I'm up it starts!! lol


Oh I'd love that and I'm sure Gideon would sleep in the entrance of his cage til morning because the whole front lifts off, he sits there watching over his realm, lol. My old terrier who sleeps on my bed might have other ideas for Gideon though.


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## CooCooBird

*Update!*

First of all, I found my pair! I did a lot of research and just spent an hour on the phone with the breeder. I asked him a ton of questions about this breed and didn't contact him until I found info about them, including the local breed club site. I even asked him if they can fly (they can). These are young birds, he's not 100% sure of the sex yet but told me he thinks one might be male. He said if they both turn out to be males he's willing to swap one of them out for a female. 



















I gave him a deposit and he's delivering them in a couple of days. 

Finally, here is the cage (so far). Any constructive criticism or suggestions would be appreciated. It's lined with puppy pads with a layer of newspaper below. I thought that would be handy to check on their poop for the first while. That red and green thing is a chick feeder with a mason jar, I thought it might come in handy to prevent them from walking in their food. The lid and bottle come off. I have some vinyl shelf liner, would it be better to put this on the shelves to help with cleaning or am I better off with just the bare wood? (It's easy to replace at Home Depot when needed).










Here's a question: the breeder told me he's seen Jacobins stop eating or eat less when they don't have any other pigeons around. He mentioned that since they can't see around them as well, that they feel safer with others to help them keep an eye on things. Is that true? Does it happen with other breeds?


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## Jay3

Don't know about Jacobins, but any pigeon prefers others around. They are naturally flock birds and don't like being alone. Very pretty. I wouldn't put vinyl on the shelf. Leave it wood. You can scrape it with a wide putty knife type tool. That is what we use in a loft for the perches and shelves. Works fine. You don't want to put things that would be slippery for them to walk on.
The cage set up is great. You can make it easier to change out the papers by running inch wide pieces of wood, like tomato stakes from one end of the cage to the other, sitting on the cross bar that is just below the shelves now, then you put the shelf on them. That way, you don't have to take out the shelves and the containers holding them up when you change the papers. They would be sitting on the 2pieces of wood, and not on supports that sit on the floor. I found that to be easier anyway, as I don't have to remove the shelves to clean the cage. And a nest box can be placed under the wider shelf. You did a good job. Now you just need a heavy crock that they won't knock over for water.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> Don't know about Jacobins, but any pigeon prefers others around. They are naturally flock birds and don't like being alone. Very pretty. I wouldn't put vinyl on the shelf. Leave it wood. You can scrape it with a wide putty knife type tool. That is what we use in a loft for the perches and shelves. Works fine. You don't want to put things that would be slippery for them to walk on.
> The cage set up is great. You can make it easier to change out the papers by running inch wide pieces of wood, like tomato stakes from one end of the cage to the other, sitting on the cross bar that is just below the shelves now, then you put the shelf on them. That way, you don't have to take out the shelves and the containers holding them up when you change the papers. They would be sitting on the 2pieces of wood, and not on supports that sit on the floor. I found that to be easier anyway, as I don't have to remove the shelves to clean the cage. And a nest box can be placed under the wider shelf. You did a good job. Now you just need a heavy crock that they won't knock over for water.


Thanks again for your advice! 

Last night I was trying to think of a way to install the shelves, it's harder when the cage has very few horizontal bars. I thought the bar near the bottom of the cage might be too low, that's why I used the buckets. I have a few bits of long, slim lumber that might work. However, how do you place the shelf on top of the board so that it doesn't fall down? I can't think of a way. It would require support both at the front and the back of the shelf (closest to the wall of the cage). The only way I can think of is to drill holes in the board and use cable zip ties to hold it up at the back (facing the wall of the cage). Then put the lumber underneath the front part of the shelf. 

I've looked at other people's designs online and I notice some people drive nails into the ends of the shelves, leaving the head sticking out by half an inch or so, then the board is installed so that the nail heads protrude out of the cage and rest on the horizontal bar. I also thought of using stainless steel chains to hold the shelves up at the front. I have two horse harness chains with dog snaps at one end. I'd still have to attach the backs of the shelves to the sides of the cage or use lumber. 

Re poop scrapers, I have a set of plastic ones. Re crock for water, I've got a few of those around. Has anyone ever used a water bottle or chicken waterer for pigeons? I switched my button quail over to bottles after they managed to foul their water, even when I used a chick waterer.


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## Jay3

CooCooBird said:


> Thanks again for your advice!
> 
> Last night I was trying to think of a way to install the shelves, it's harder when the cage has very few horizontal bars. I thought the bar near the bottom of the cage might be too low, that's why I used the buckets. I have a few bits of long, slim lumber that might work. However, how do you place the shelf on top of the board so that it doesn't fall down? I can't think of a way. It would require support both at the front and the back of the shelf (closest to the wall of the cage). The only way I can think of is to drill holes in the board and use cable zip ties to hold it up at the back (facing the wall of the cage). Then put the lumber underneath the front part of the shelf.
> 
> *I've looked at other people's designs online and I notice some people drive nails into the ends of the shelves, leaving the head sticking out by half an inch or so, then the board is installed so that the nail heads protrude out of the cage and rest on the horizontal bar.* I also thought of using stainless steel chains to hold the shelves up at the front. I have two horse harness chains with dog snaps at one end. I'd still have to attach the backs of the shelves to the sides of the cage or use lumber.
> 
> I bet the idea of the nails would work. You would want nails that go in far enough to give good support, and large heads on the nails. I like that idea. Never thought of that one. I run 2 wooden tomato posts for each shelf, and still have to wire it down on the side of the cage. I'll try to post a picture.
> 
> *Re poop scrapers, I have a set of plastic ones.*
> 
> The metal ones work much better. Maybe 2 or 3 inch scrapers.
> 
> Re crock for water, I've got a few of those around. Has anyone ever used a water bottle or chicken waterer for pigeons?
> 
> I use one in the loft, but if not covered can still get soiled. In cages I just use a small heavy crock that won't tip over. Not like you need a big one in a cage. They do have ones that won't get soiled at pigeon supply places, but kind of large for a cage.
> 
> I switched my button quail over to bottles after they managed to foul their water, even when I used a chick waterer.


.............................................................


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## Jay3

Don't really have any good pics of it but here is the idea.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> Don't really have any good pics of it but here is the idea.


Yes, after I answered your last post, I figured out to put two pieces of lumber underneath each shelf - or nails on each end. The shelves are particleboard, so it might be tough getting the nails in. 

I found that all of my extra stainless steel bowls have round sides, so would be easily knocked over. I went out and bought a heavy glass Anchor Hocking kitchen bowl with flat bottom and straight sides. It's not too big, so should work ok, and I like that it's glass, so I can see at a glance if the water has been fouled. Do you tuck the water bowl under the shelves to keep poop out? Or won't they drink from them there? 

I'm really looking forward to welcoming my new birds! I found a Canadian Jacobin website (jacobin.ca) that's full of interesting information. They posted a link to a Yahoo group about Jacobins which I've asked to join. That should be a good source of information from experienced owners. Of course I've been looking for threads about them here. I've also been watching them on YouTube so I know what to expect and how they get around with those "headdresses". I saw a white hen who reminded me of Eva Gabor, who used to parade around in feather boa negligees on Green Acres. Which reminds me, I'll have to come up with some good names for them. That might be tough without knowing for sure what their genders are!


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## Jay3

CooCooBird said:


> Yes, after I answered your last post, I figured out to put two pieces of lumber underneath each shelf - or nails on each end. The shelves are particleboard, so it might be tough getting the nails in.
> 
> Particle board isn't the greatest for shelves, as you can't really wash them if you want to. A piece of pine board works better. Easy to scrape, and can be washed if need be.
> 
> I found that all of my extra stainless steel bowls have round sides, so would be easily knocked over. I went out and bought a heavy glass Anchor Hocking kitchen bowl with flat bottom and straight sides. It's not too big, so should work ok, and I like that it's glass, so I can see at a glance if the water has been fouled. Do you tuck the water bowl under the shelves to keep poop out? Or won't they drink from them there?
> 
> Yes, you can tuck it under the shelves. If it's too big, they will try to bathe in it and get the cage drenched. Pigeons love to bath. They do sell heavy ceramic bowls the right size on some pigeon supply sites, or pet stores. You can use anything, just be careful how large around.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to welcoming my new birds! I found a Canadian Jacobin website (jacobin.ca) that's full of interesting information. They posted a link to a Yahoo group about Jacobins which I've asked to join. That should be a good source of information from experienced owners. Of course I've been looking for threads about them here. I've also been watching them on YouTube so I know what to expect and how they get around with those "headdresses". I saw a white hen who reminded me of Eva Gabor, who used to parade around in feather boa negligees on Green Acres. Which reminds me, I'll have to come up with some good names for them. That might be tough without knowing for sure what their genders are!


You will haave fun with them I'm sure.


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## CooCooBird

*Voici le Château Jacobin*

Re the boards for shelves, I live next to a construction site where they're building townhouses, there's plenty of scrap wood there. When I went there on Sunday, I couldn't find any plain boards of the right length, only particle boards. I'll go back and see if I can find more boards and keep them as spares. One of the boards I have in the cage is very fine particle board with smooth sides so it should be possible to scrape it. I could also use the shelf lining, it's padded and textured, so not slippery. 

I added some mesh to the sides for two purposes. First, to reduce the amount of debris scatter. Secondly, to keep feline paws out. They can't get up to the cage because it's the same size as the table beneath it, and they can't stand on it because the top bars are too far apart, however, they can stand on their hind legs on the floor and poke their paws at the bars. The mesh is soft plastic, flexible and not sharp. I attached it to the cage using zip ties. I've also made a sturdy hard cover for the cage for night time. I think the cats will be curious at first when they see the birds, but will lose interest because they've never shown much interest in larger birds. They don't jump and flutter around like canaries or budgies. Still, for the first while they will be shut away while the pigeons get their flying time. 

So here's the Château now. I believe the water bowl isn't too big, it's 8 inches diameter. The chain in the background prevents the large shelf from sagging. 










I also read that pigeons like mirrors and can recognize themselves. So I added this, which seems like an appropriate mirror for fancy birds! It's strapped to the bars at the back, and braced with the brick.


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## Jay3

I wouldn't put a mirror in with a pair. We usually use those for lone birds, for company. They will have each other, and the male may feel upset that there is another bird around. He will probably fight with it. I'd take it out. Really not necessary when you have more than one bird.

The 8 inch water bowl is planty big enough for them to splash in. Your cage will be wet often.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't put a mirror in with a pair. We usually use those for lone birds, for company. They will have each other, and the male may feel upset that there is another bird around. He will probably fight with it. I'd take it out. Really not necessary when you have more than one bird.
> 
> The 8 inch water bowl is planty big enough for them to splash in. Your cage will be wet often.


Thanks for helping me with this stuff!

When I read about the mirrors I didn't pay attention to the number of birds. I found the information on the pigeonrescue.org site, which seems oriented to king and runt pigeons, adopted singly. Here in Canada I've never heard of anyone eating squab, so I'd never heard of these meat/utility breeds until now. No worries, the mirror is easy to remove. 

My African Grey used to bathe in his water dishes. Even with a small one he'd find a way to cram at least part of himself into it. I eventually bought him a big sturdy water bottle and he took to it pretty fast. I then bought three different large parrot bird baths for him, including a big plant tray. He would just grab them in his beak and flip them upside down. I have a smaller crock in my guinea pig cage, I'll swap it out with the glass one and wash out the former GP crock. 

So, I'm almost there! I heard from the breeder tonight, he has to work tomorrow but will bring them over the day after tomorrow. He'll be bringing some of their food as well, and I have pigeon/dove mix already for my doves. I have a few pigeon supplements, grit etc. on their way, but this year Canada Post is falling flat on their faces for the holidays and everything's being delayed.


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## Jay3

Don't know if I have mentioned it, but you will need fake eggs. The solid plastic are usually the best ones, and can order them online from pigeon supply places.
Many people keep Runts and Kings for other than eating. They just like them. 
If the pigeon/dove mix is mostly small seeds, you can add to it with split peas, lentils and a bit of safflower and maybe just a bit of brown rice. Cracked corn.


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## FredaH

Oh wow so you're very nearly there, hope the next couple of days fly by for you. I've got bricks for mine and they love them and I have roof slates on top of a layer of three bricks to make them 'cubby holes' for if they want some privacy - Gully and Gabe made their nest in one and are egg sitting now and they spend most of their awake time sitting on the slates above. I like the bricks and slate because they can be dampened and scraped then scrubbed in a bucket of Hibiscrub (chlorhexadine) dilute and because they quickly absorb and dry there's no worry of the birds sitting on damp surfaces or bacteria being encouraged by moisture. The slate cleans better with diluted iodine spray, very easy to keep clean and once you spot where they mostly poop you can cut puppy pads to size for those areas and in between cage cleaning just nip the soiled ones out. I line cages with full sized pads and then cut pieces here n there for in between cleans. 
Just make sure that any shelves can take their weight without collapsing because they can land heavily or at an angle that could destabilise them - the ferals land much heavier than the tumblers so I expect yours may differ too. 
Looking forward to seeing these lovely babes in their new home, as I reckon you are too.


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## cwebster

You must be excited, getting such beautiful birds soon.


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## CooCooBird

Yes, I'm really excited about getting these birds! They're my Christmas present to myself. 

Re the fake eggs, yes I know that's what to use for birth control. I don't have any yet but they shouldn't be hard to find either locally or online. 

Re the seed mix. I'm using the Hagen Pigeon and Dove mix. I checked the ingredients, it already contains the ingredients that were mentioned. The breeder told me he feeds them Baden premium mix and he's giving me some with the birds. I found a local seller who carries this brand. 

This morning I found a cat on top of the cage, despite the wide spaced bars. He was trying to get at the canary's cage which is attached to the wall above the pigeon cage, near the ceiling. So, I built a removable wood wall around the top of the pigeon cage to prevent them from getting up there again. It ties to the cage with nylon tie down straps. It will go up there at night and when I'm not home. I am guessing that the pigeons would be spooked by cats overhead, so I don't want them on top of the cage.


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## Jay3

I mentioned adding those things, because pigeon/dove mixes are usually mostly the small seeds, like for doves, and a pigeon mix also has the larger things in them, like peas of different kinds. Lots of them like these things and it gives them more variety. So when I do need to use these mixes I add to them to make them more of a pigeon mix, than a dove mix. I don't know that particular mix though.
Cats are hard. I wouldn't have birds if I had cats. They are too difficult to keep away. With a dog, you can just put the bird up higher. Much easier. Having a cover on top is a good idea as yes, a cat on top of the cage would scare the heck out of the birds. They need to feel safe in their cage as stress causes them to get ill. You don't need that.


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## FredaH

Oh shoot that's scary about the cat. Some years ago I lost a bird in an aviary due to a cat pulling it, or trying to pull it through the wire and that was chicken wire but the cat managed to get it and killed it and left it partially dragged out, my kids found it first and were so upset. I've got four dogs and agree with Jay, much easier to manage even with high prey drive. The good thing is at least you saw it before the birds arrive - won't be long now eh?


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## cwebster

Glad to hear you rescued the canary from the cat. Looking forward to photos of your new birds.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> I mentioned adding those things, because pigeon/dove mixes are usually mostly the small seeds, like for doves, and a pigeon mix also has the larger things in them, like peas of different kinds. Lots of them like these things and it gives them more variety. So when I do need to use these mixes I add to them to make them more of a pigeon mix, than a dove mix. I don't know that particular mix though.
> Cats are hard. I wouldn't have birds if I had cats. They are too difficult to keep away. With a dog, you can just put the bird up higher. Much easier. Having a cover on top is a good idea as yes, a cat on top of the cage would scare the heck out of the birds. They need to feel safe in their cage as stress causes them to get ill. You don't need that.


Re the mix, I bought it for my Diamond doves primarily. The breeder is bringing some of the food they're on when he drops them off. I've already found the mix he uses at a local store, so if they're on the p/d mix it won't be for very long, if at all. You mentioned brown rice, do you feed it to them cooked or uncooked? I have plenty of brown rice. There's a pretty good bulk store near me, so in future I can buy peas etc. there. I see a lot of people just use recipes and mix their own pigeon feeds. I found some recipes on the Canadian Jacobin website. But I'll start with what they're on now. 

Re cats, I grew up with birds and cats and have had them together for years - budgies, parrotlets, African Grey, canaries and now pigeons. In all that time I only lost one canary to a cat, and that was because I stupidly forgot to check all of the drop down doors on the front of the canary's cage, and it promptly escaped and got picked off by a cat before I could do anything. Since then I always clip all cage doors to prevent more accidents.

The main thing is to keep the cages out of their reach. I've learned this art from years of trial and error, in the process becoming fairly handy with tools and building things, including cages and pens. I use coat hooks to attach the cages right up at the ceiling. Smaller cages can be hung from plant pulleys so you can lower them to work in the cage. If there's any furniture around that they could use as a launching point to jump at the cages, I attach coroplast (corrugated plastic, used to make signs) to the side(s) of the cage closest to the furniture so there's nowhere for them to go. If they get hold of any part of the cage, they can try to drag it down, so on some cages I put coroplast on the area where they might reach, so there's nothing for them to grab. And of course all cages are covered at night, which reduces the temptation for them. They're attracted by movement and sound. Sometimes I will make a removable "night shield" by drilling holes in a sheet of plastic or coroplast, and I hang the shield on the front of the cage at night with shower curtain hooks. 

I keep my doves in the bedroom, along with my button quail who live in rabbit cages. The doves are not tame and too easily stressed, and their size makes them attractive to the cats. The quail would be too easy for them to get at. I keep the bedroom totally off limits to the cats. It's the only place I can keep my big floor plants, which cats try to eat. 

The one time they tore a cage down from the wall, it was also my fault. I tried to use roofing nails instead of the coat hooks to hang the cage up. They did it in the middle of the night, I heard the crash and came running. Found no birds in the cage (English budgies) and feared the worst. The cats were behaving normally, no excitement and nobody with feathers in their mouth. I started crawling around the living room looking for corpses, but what I found was two totally fine birds - one on the coffee table and one on the back of the couch. English budgies aren't the greatest flyers. The cats weren't even looking for them. 

I couldn't figure out how they got at this cage because there was nothing around for them to jump from. I re-hung it on coat hooks and for the next few nights I slept on the couch a few feet from the cage. Finally I caught my "worst offender" climbing up on a fish tank  which I never thought they'd do because of the water. That tank is around a corner from the cage - she managed to somehow leap and twist around and hook her claws into the bars! This time there was no harm, as the cage was hung up on sturdy hooks. There's now a big sheet of coroplast nailed to that corner, a night shield on the front, and the cage has been fine ever since. 

For the pigeon cage I plan to sleep on the couch again for a few days, since my couch is only about 6 feet from the cage. None of them have tried to get up on the cage since I put the barrier up. I'll be covering the cage at night with shields, once the pigeons are here as well. I also attached sturdy mesh around the bottom of the cage and over the shelves, so they can't get their paws in through the bars. The cage is the exact size of the table it's resting on, which means they can't climb up onto the table and get at the cage that way. There's no furniture in reach, so nobody will be staring into the cage during the day. So we'll see what happens. Tonight will be the test of the wall I built today. If worse comes to worse, I could move them into the bedroom, but I'd prefer they were here with me during the day.

So the birds come tomorrow - I'll be sure to post some pics!


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## Jay3

CooCooBird said:


> Re the mix, I bought it for my Diamond doves primarily. The breeder is bringing some of the food they're on when he drops them off. I've already found the mix he uses at a local store, so if they're on the p/d mix it won't be for very long, if at all. You mentioned brown rice, do you feed it to them cooked or uncooked? I have plenty of brown rice.
> 
> Uncooked. Not a lot of rice, just a bit as some like it. You should try the recipes on the Jacobin site, as they probably have a better idea of what they like.
> There's a pretty good bulk store near me, so in future I can buy peas etc. there. I see a lot of people just use recipes and mix their own pigeon feeds. I found some recipes on the Canadian Jacobin website. But I'll start with what they're on now.
> 
> Re cats, I grew up with birds and cats and have had them together for years - budgies, parrotlets, African Grey, canaries and now pigeons. In all that time I only lost one canary to a cat, and that was because I stupidly forgot to check all of the drop down doors on the front of the canary's cage, and it promptly escaped and got picked off by a cat before I could do anything. Since then I always clip all cage doors to prevent more accidents.
> 
> The main thing is to keep the cages out of their reach. I've learned this art from years of trial and error, in the process becoming fairly handy with tools and building things, including cages and pens. I use coat hooks to attach the cages right up at the ceiling. Smaller cages can be hung from plant pulleys so you can lower them to work in the cage. If there's any furniture around that they could use as a launching point to jump at the cages, I attach coroplast (corrugated plastic, used to make signs) to the side(s) of the cage closest to the furniture so there's nowhere for them to go. If they get hold of any part of the cage, they can try to drag it down, so on some cages I put coroplast on the area where they might reach, so there's nothing for them to grab. And of course all cages are covered at night, which reduces the temptation for them. They're attracted by movement and sound. Sometimes I will make a removable "night shield" by drilling holes in a sheet of plastic or coroplast, and I hang the shield on the front of the cage at night with shower curtain hooks.
> 
> I keep my doves in the bedroom, along with my button quail who live in rabbit cages. The doves are not tame and too easily stressed, and their size makes them attractive to the cats. The quail would be too easy for them to get at. I keep the bedroom totally off limits to the cats. It's the only place I can keep my big floor plants, which cats try to eat.
> 
> The one time they tore a cage down from the wall, it was also my fault. I tried to use roofing nails instead of the coat hooks to hang the cage up. They did it in the middle of the night, I heard the crash and came running. Found no birds in the cage (English budgies) and feared the worst. The cats were behaving normally, no excitement and nobody with feathers in their mouth. I started crawling around the living room looking for corpses, but what I found was two totally fine birds - one on the coffee table and one on the back of the couch. English budgies aren't the greatest flyers. The cats weren't even looking for them.
> 
> I couldn't figure out how they got at this cage because there was nothing around for them to jump from. I re-hung it on coat hooks and for the next few nights I slept on the couch a few feet from the cage. Finally I caught my "worst offender" climbing up on a fish tank  which I never thought they'd do because of the water. That tank is around a corner from the cage - she managed to somehow leap and twist around and hook her claws into the bars! This time there was no harm, as the cage was hung up on sturdy hooks. There's now a big sheet of coroplast nailed to that corner, a night shield on the front, and the cage has been fine ever since.
> 
> For the pigeon cage I plan to sleep on the couch again for a few days, since my couch is only about 6 feet from the cage. None of them have tried to get up on the cage since I put the barrier up. I'll be covering the cage at night with shields, once the pigeons are here as well. I also attached sturdy mesh around the bottom of the cage and over the shelves, so they can't get their paws in through the bars. The cage is the exact size of the table it's resting on, which means they can't climb up onto the table and get at the cage that way. There's no furniture in reach, so nobody will be staring into the cage during the day. So we'll see what happens. Tonight will be the test of the wall I built today. If worse comes to worse, I could move them into the bedroom, but I'd prefer they were here with me during the day.
> 
> So the birds come tomorrow - I'll be sure to post some pics!


Will look forward to the pictures. Bet you don't sleep well tonight.


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## CooCooBird

*Here they are!*



















They've been here for over an hour now. They haven't moved around much, they're probably petrified. The shavings around them came from the box they were in. 

The breeder said he's pretty sure now that one of them is male. He saw him square off with one of his homers last night. The male is the one standing on the brick, I think. I base that on the fact that he seems to stand more erect and looks around more than the other one. The breeder still isn't sure about the other one because he/she is the younger of the two. He told me that he bought both birds from the same breeder, but they are unrelated. 

The cats have been surprisingly good so far. I hope this means they'll respond to the pigeons the same way they did with the African Grey - too much bird for them, and they'll just leave them alone. In my experience the larger birds move a bit more slowly and aren't as busy as the little birds that attract the cats with quick movements and chirps. When the pigeons first arrived, the cats tried standing on their hind legs to peer into the cage, but the table is too tall and they could barely get their paws up there. I clipped all of their claws last night anyway. They didn't try to leap at the cage at all, in fact I put the box that was used to carry the pigeons under the table, and they were more interested in the box than the pigeons themselves. Now they're bored of both box and pigeons, and are back to their usual routine of finding warm places to sleep away the afternoon. Still, I'll be sleeping on the couch tonight to make sure they don't get up to anything in the middle of the night.


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## FredaH

Oh wow they look like royalty, love their colour too. I hope they settle down in a couple of days once they get used to their new surroundings and that the cats continue to find them boring, lol. 
Welcome to your new home little ones.


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## CooCooBird

FredaH said:


> Oh wow they look like royalty, love their colour too. I hope they settle down in a couple of days once they get used to their new surroundings and that the cats continue to find them boring, lol.
> Welcome to your new home little ones.


It's funny, today I was so excited that I wrote my last post, previewed it to make sure the pics came out as expected - then forgot to post it!  I posted it a couple of hours ago.

Now it's just after 7 pm here and they've stayed rooted to the same spots. I've seen both of them preening and looking around a bit, but the one I think is female has stayed underneath the shelf and the male is still on his brick. I made sure their food and water bowls are nearby, even then they didn't move, but the male peered at me and looked concerned. Just from watching their behaviour I'd say it's a good guess which one is male and which is the hen. He reminds me of a Canada goose, they feed in flocks and one member of the flock stands guard while the others eat. The male Jac stands upright and peers around exactly like that. His lady, on the other hand, positions herself more horizontally and remains under the shelf, letting him watch out for her. 

Yes, these red ones are beautiful. Christmas colour! I love the way they are bred to have white feathers at the root of their hoods, so when you view them from the side you see a white patch in the middle of the "fan" of feathers. Then the heads are pure white, in contrast with the red ruffs. On the male's back there are a few white feathers, the female is just plain red there. Their lower bellies and leg feathers are a pale grey colour. 

Since I last posted, the cats have behaved as if there are no new birds here, they don't bother with the cage anymore, they've just been piled beside me or on my lap on the couch. That might change once the pigeons start moving around more, or if they make noise. But for now I'm glad they're just ignoring the pigeons, as I suspected they might. They tend to ignore the other birds as well, unless they hear a commotion in a cage. However, I know they'd love the chance to get at one of those cages. I will still sleep on the couch tonight just to ensure that they don't get up to anything in the night. 

I will have to find names for them, which should be interesting. The male reminds me a bit of Jack Skellington, with his spiky collar, long tailed jacket, pale skull and dark eyes.









I'll also start reading up on how to bond with them. A couple of weeks ago I ordered some pigeon supplements from the US, they only got here to Canada today. They threw in a free package of bee pollen to add to their food - I guess it won't hurt them. I also put a bit of Guardian Angel in their water, to help them with the stress.


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## Jay3

Congrats! Would love to see pics of them. They will remain quiet for at least a couple of days, as they aren't sure what is going to happen next or what is about to befall them.
They don't know you, so to them you are a predator. They will get used to you and become more comfortable. Just keep the cats from jumping up, as that will scare the heck out of them and they won't feel safe where they are. Enjoy them.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> Congrats! Would love to see pics of them. They will remain quiet for at least a couple of days, as they aren't sure what is going to happen next or what is about to befall them.
> They don't know you, so to them you are a predator. They will get used to you and become more comfortable. Just keep the cats from jumping up, as that will scare the heck out of them and they won't feel safe where they are. Enjoy them.


Thanks! The pics I posted above were taken right after they arrived. Since then I've left them alone, other than to look in on them every so often to make sure everything is OK. I've talked to them softly a few times as well. The cats haven't shown any interest at all. I left the barrier I built yesterday that prevents the cats from jumping on top of the cage. I'm putting cardboard in front of the cage bars tonight and will be sleeping on the couch nearby for at least tonight.


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## cwebster

Lovely birds! Once they get to know you they should be a lot of fun. Beautiful birds!


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## Jay3

I missed the post with the pictures. 
They are adorable. Must be hard for them to not be able to see off to the side. They make a very cute pair. Hope one is a hen.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> I missed the post with the pictures.
> They are adorable. Must be hard for them to not be able to see off to the side. They make a very cute pair. Hope one is a hen.


Re seeing to the side, I've noticed that they can raise or lower their hoods a bit, but I'm sure they must have to turn their heads from side to side more often than a regular pigeon would. They definitely have longer necks than most breeds. I was reading articles on how to breed them, some breeders trim the hood feathers but others leave them as is and they still breed successfully. They trim the breast and vent feathers because those feathers are longer than normal and interfere with mating and rearing young. The long breast feathers tend to drag eggs and young squabs out of the nest. 

I hope one is a hen, too! I guess it's too early to tell yet. One is definitely male, he stands more erect and always seems to be on the lookout. The other seems more shy and stays under the shelves. I don't know if that means she's a hen or if it's just a younger and more submissive bird. I've seen the two of them snuggling together side by side with heads together, I hope that's a good sign. If it turns out that I have two cocks, at least I found a website with Jac breeders, they might be willing to trade. The breeder I got them from says he'll switch them for me, but he told me he doesn't have extras right now and doesn't expect them until next spring's breeding season. 

Update: Everything went smoothly overnight. None of the cats tried to get into their cage. This morning they're ignoring the cage again. The birds have started moving around the cage more, though the female (that's what I'll call her until I find out otherwise) is still staying underneath the shelves. But, she has moved to an area under the shelves that's at the front bars of the cage, so I guess she's feeling a little bit braver. I can't tell if they're eating or drinking yet. I scattered some of their seed mix on the bottom of the cage in case they can't find their food dish. 

I'm considering whether to change their puppy pads today or leave it for today and do it tomorrow. They only got here at around noon yesterday and I don't want to disturb them too much until they settle down. I'll see how dirty the pads are.


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## Jay3

The pads shouldn't be too bad in one day, especially with them them not eating much.
They sound cute. The one standing erect may just fool you and be the female. LOL. Maybe the male is shy. Being a more secure pigeon isn't necessarily gender specific. Sounds good that they cuddle together. Sometimes you can just spot clean by picking up droppings with a tissue.


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## CooCooBird

Good news, this morning they're eating and drinking and moving around more. The female has come out from under the shelves now. They've begun vocalizing a bit now, cooing a bit but also making a deeper, muffled sound that sounds like "oh, oh". 

Bad news is that they peck at each other every so often. It doesn't look like fighting, they just peck back and forth at each other's heads and ruffs, but without much force, only a few pecks at a time. There's no running or chasing. I'm hoping it's just because they're both trying to get at the food dish at the same time. I think they could go at each other a lot harder if they wanted to. 

Right now, one is standing in the food dish eating seeds that are on the bottom of the cage.  The other still sits on his beloved brick. Maybe he has a bit of an inferiority complex! 

I've made a nest for them out of a wicker basket lined with an old hand towel. I read that they like roosting in a nest even if they're not laying eggs. Speaking of eggs, I found plastic ones on Amazon (.ca), along with a surprising variety of other pigeon supplies. 

Do they eat sprouted seeds? I sprout them for my other birds because they're supposed to be more nutritious that way. I also use Perle Morbide, which is a man made alternative to sprouts with the same nutritional value. Would these be good for pigeons as well?


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## Jay3

These birds were not a mated pair, so could have gone slower in letting them get to know each other before caging them together. They often like chopped kale or romaine, and finely chopped carrots. Yes, they like sprouts.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> These birds were not a mated pair, so could have gone slower in letting them get to know each other before caging them together. They often like chopped kale or romaine, and finely chopped carrots. Yes, they like sprouts.


I was told these two were caged together even though they are not mated. Both are pretty young, one younger than the other. They haven't been through a breeding season yet. I discussed the possibility of only buying one of them, but the breeder seemed to think they would pine for each other if separated. Maybe he was just trying to talk me into buying both. 

I'll offer them a bit of grated carrot and see what happens. They've been busy with their seed this morning, probably hungry after not eating yesterday. They used to keep their backs to me when I was around the cage, this morning they've begun turning and watching me. When they do this, I talk to them softly for a bit.


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## CooCooBird

Just now I finally got a good look at the "female". They've switched places and now the male is under the shelf and she's on a brick. Neither of them has tried to get up onto the shelves. I can tell she's noticeably younger than the other one. Her eyes are completely black with no iris showing, whereas the other one has irises. Also, her colour looks a bit faded compared to the other one, and her ruff is not as big or thick. She stood quietly watching me while I talked to her for a while. I gave them some grated carrot but so far, no takers. They've eaten a lot of their seed, though. I'll keep talking to them every so often. The cats are completely ignoring them, even when they move around.


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## Jay3

They may not even know what carrots are, if they never got any before. 
Pigeons are normally curious birds, so may eventually try new things.
You don't really know how he kept them do you? Does he have a loft? You don't know of what the conditions were where they came from. I would watch closely for any illness, and after a bit, I would definitely worm them.
Wonder if they ever got to bathe in the other place. You could offer them a bath with warm water in a container a couple of inches high, and large enough for them to get in and splash. Pigeons love to bath.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> They may not even know what carrots are, if they never got any before.
> Pigeons are normally curious birds, so may eventually try new things.
> You don't really know how he kept them do you? Does he have a loft? You don't know of what the conditions were where they came from. I would watch closely for any illness, and after a bit, I would definitely worm them.
> Wonder if they ever got to bathe in the other place. You could offer them a bath with warm water in a container a couple of inches high, and large enough for them to get in and splash. Pigeons love to bath.


I think he said he has a loft. He told me he breeds other breeds of pigeon as well. I'm keeping an eye on them for signs of illness. They are eating well and drinking, I've seen both of them eat and drink several times today. How do you worm them? What do you use? I have some liquid Ivermectin I bought from a pigeon supplier, it's supposed to be added to their water once, then again a few days later. I know Ivermectin is used to worm horses, is that's what's used for pigeons as well?

My main concern about their behaviour is that they peck at each other, back and forth, every so often. I don't know if this is normal "pecking order" behaviour or if they're males getting ready to fight. Most of the time they sit next to each other quietly, or they move around to explore or eat and drink. This evening they've suddenly started cooing and moving around more. I watched the older one bowing and cooing to the other, but the other responded by pecking at him. They never hit each other, just swing their heads at each other. Could it just be because the other one is too young to appreciate his affections? Right now the "male" is up on a brick, puffing his chest and bow-cooing. The other one's on the cage floor, alternating between pecking at food and swinging his/her beak at the male. Sometimes they take turns bowing at each other.

So my big question is, what body language should I be concerned about? Under what circumstances would they need to be separated if they're not getting along?


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## Jay3

You may have 2 males. Also, sometimes the female just doesn't like the male. It is a threat to the other without actually exchanging blows. You can get DNA testing and know for sure what gender they are. It's hard when you don't know for sure. On occasion my pairs will do that when they aren't happy about something, or if neighbors in boxes next to each other feel the other bird in the box next door is too close. They just pester each other. But it is saying back off.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> You may have 2 males. Also, sometimes the female just doesn't like the male. It is a threat to the other without actually exchanging blows. You can get DNA testing and know for sure what gender they are. It's hard when you don't know for sure. On occasion my pairs will do that when they aren't happy about something, or if neighbors in boxes next to each other feel the other bird in the box next door is too close. They just pester each other. But it is saying back off.


I took a good hard look at them just now. The one I think is male has a definitely prominent breast/crop area compared to the other. His red colour is a bit deeper and richer, and his neck feathers are a little bit glossy.

The other one doesn't have the prominent breast, however I'm pretty sure it's younger based on the black eye with no iris. I guess I will have to wait and see. The good news is that they're not seriously going at each other, they just swing their heads at each other but don't make contact. The head swinging bouts are short and there's no chasing, wing flapping etc. Usually the male makes some kind of overture towards the other, then he/she swings her head to say "buzz off", and they go back to their business again. At this moment they both have their heads stuffed into their seed bowl with no pecking at all. 

I'm trying to get hold of a Yahoo group for Jacobins but so far they haven't responded to my membership request. Perhaps they can shed some light on visible male/female differences among red Jacs. I'm wondering if the "female"s duller colour is because of her gender, or because she's still very young.


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## Jay3

CooCooBird said:


> I took a good hard look at them just now. The one I think is male has a definitely prominent breast/crop area compared to the other. His red colour is a bit deeper and richer, and his neck feathers are a little bit glossy.
> 
> The other one doesn't have the prominent breast, however I'm pretty sure it's younger based on the black eye with no iris. I guess I will have to wait and see. The good news is that they're not seriously going at each other, they just swing their heads at each other but don't make contact. The head swinging bouts are short and there's no chasing, wing flapping etc. Usually the male makes some kind of overture towards the other, then he/she swings her head to say "buzz off", and they go back to their business again. At this moment they both have their heads stuffed into their seed bowl with no pecking at all.
> 
> I'm trying to get hold of a Yahoo group for Jacobins but so far they haven't responded to my membership request. Perhaps they can shed some light on visible male/female differences among red Jacs. I'm wondering if the "female"s duller colour is because of her gender, or because she's still very young.



You really can't tell the gender by those things. I think a DNR is about $25, not sure. You will figure it out eventually, anyone trying to figure it out would just be guessing. I wouldn't worry about them unless they are actually fighting. But if they are males, then as the younger one matures, that could happen.


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## CooCooBird

Not sure if I asked this, but is it OK to give them Ivermectin for worms? I have some Ivermectin solution for birds, it's to be added to their water once and then again in 14 days. Or should I wait a bit until they are settled in?


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## Jay3

I prefer dosing individually rather than in the water. In the water, you cannot be sure that they drank enough. But I would wait a couple of weeks till they settle in some.


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## CooCooBird

Jay3 said:


> I prefer dosing individually rather than in the water. In the water, you cannot be sure that they drank enough. But I would wait a couple of weeks till they settle in some.


The ivermectin I have is only to be used in their water. However, I was researching the best medication to worm pigeons and ivermectin isn't the greatest for intestinal worms, it only kills a few kinds. I bought it because I suspect a couple of my budgies may have air sac mites. Moxidectin is supposed to be a broader spectrum dewormer, so I will get some in a couple of weeks. 

They seem fine today, they've been exploring the shelves a bit, and also seem more interested in me when I approach the cage. I hear them cooing every so often. It's a bit weird to hear that sound in my living room, I'm used to hearing it from ferals outdoors.


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## MiST_xSHADOW

This isnt a reply to anyone, I just have a some questions. Sorry,

I have a cockatiel, hes friendly with other birds as me and my gf have 3 others (fiery shoulder conure, turquoise conure, parakeet).Im moving away for a bit and im concerned that he might get sad or depressed moving away from them. I was wondering if a pigeon would be a good friend for him to have, and if so what kind?


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