# Big Cat Problem



## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

i let out 2 pigeons this morning, one came back the other dint, and the one that came back is very injured. i need to do something with this cat, second time this happens and its the same cat.


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## nitla (Jan 14, 2010)

catch the cat and release it somewhere far away.or just you should find a dog. who's that cat anyway?


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## Donna Miller (Dec 22, 2009)

Im guessing this is not your cat - if it belongs to someone you should try to return it to its owner otherwice have the APL come and get it. I have 2 cats and they stay away from my birds - the cats some how know that the birds are part of the family. If this is you cat you should keep it secure (crated) white the birds are out to avoid this from happening again - Hope that wound heals, it looks pretty nasty.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Cat's can be an issue. They will eventually figure out how to get into your loft if given enough time. Keep an eye on your birds!


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

its not my cat , and dont know who it is, and yes a i have a dog but the pigeons fly around and they were on the neighboord yard, my house is not that big so its kind of a big problem too, i got a pitbull. the problem sis when they land in the fence or somewhere else that the cat can get him and the dog cant get there. well im sorry for the cat but next time i see him he wont be to happy.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

the other problem is that i dont want to get in trouble because i dont know if i can have pigeons in my backyard, how can i find out about this, do i need a lisence?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2010)

how are you so sure this was done by a cat if you didnt see it happen it could have easily been a hawk .


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

no hawks around here, besides i saw the cat in the fence looking at the pigeon, and he saw me and run away


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

see the funny thing is that 2 of my neighboors have dogs and i have dog, there only one patio that he can get trought to get to my house that doesnt have any pets. how can i take care of this? i dont wanna call anyone cause im not sure if i can have pigeons in my patio. how can i find out?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> how are you so sure this was done by a cat if you didnt see it happen it could have easily been a hawk .


Agreed Lokota. Also a cat won't get 2 pigeons at the same time. The other 1 may come home or go look around for it.
Kurps


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

i hope the other one shows , i dont know im just so angry right now .


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## Donna Miller (Dec 22, 2009)

You need to check into you City regulations for keeping birds - I can keep only a small ammt of animals in my yard - you can ask at your city hall - Im sure they will be happy to provide you with the informaiton. As far as I know you do not need a liscence to keep birds but you would need to check with your local authorities.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

blackknight01 said:


> i hope the other one shows , i dont know im just so angry right now .


I don't blame you for being madI would be too.
Kurps


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

can you guys help me find regulations for glendale arizona? i found the ones for glendale california, cant find the ones for here.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

i am talking to animal control right now lets see if they can give me info


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

well i talk to them and actually there is no regulations for pigeons in glendale, i can have as many as i want as long no one calls them about the pigeons, and the loft says cant be too big, as long there no making a mess and disturbing the neighboors im good. but what im i gonna do with that damn cat, i guess im gonna have to stay outside while my pigeons are outside.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

I would relocate the cat to a BETTER "high priced neighborhood. It could live a "notch" higher than it is living now.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

how im gonna relocate the cat everytime i see him he runs away.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

its not even my cat, its a hairy cat so problably belongs to someone


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Most cat owners are the worst for taking responsablity for their pet. Someone's cat can eat your pigeons and they will say oh well that's just what cats do, and then they continue to let them run free. Let your dog eat their cat just once and there is hell to pay. Cats can be taught not to eat birds if the owner cares enough when they are young. Imagine how many songbirds that cat has eaten. If that is someones cat and not a stray, they will usually take the bird home to eat it, so the owner knows from the feather piles what is going on, but still the cat runs free. If it is not someones cat then it won't be missed. Years ago I had a cat get into my loft through the trap. I had only gone in the house for 15 minutes, so I think the cat was waiting for the chance. Two weeks before I bought 18 young birds that were a week into loft flying at $110.00 each. The cat killed a couple of birds that I already had, but all those young birds took off except for one. Never saw them again, so in 15 minutes I lost 19 pigeons to one cat, if I sound a little cat bitter that is probably why. My own cat runs free and she is very well behaved. Jim


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

I suggest purchasing a box trap, baiting it with cat food, keeping the dog in and placing the trap in your yard near where you saw the cat.
If you catch it, if it does not have a collar, take it to the local pound or humane society.
Don't just release it somewhere else to become someone else's problem.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

where do i get box trap for cats?


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

what about if i catch him and has the collar? have to let him go?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Catch him, and take him to a no kill shelter.
If it's somebody's cat, they will probably get flyers with the cat picture.
Grab the number, call them, and tell them you thought it was a stray (do not forget to tell them about the cat killing your birds!) and tell them where it is. If they have a heart, they will keep him indoors. Get your best sadness voice and explain how they were your beloved pets.
If they don't have a heart, they shouldn't own a cat. Catch him again and find him a new home. Or, just skip the previous stuff and find him a home.
By the way, antibiotics, quick!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

If he has the collar, call the owner . And do what I told you about the birds.

Also, cats can come back if released far away.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

blackknight01 said:


> *can you guys help me find regulations for glendale arizona? *i found the ones for glendale california, cant find the ones for here.


Here is the link to the Arizona Revised Statutes: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp

Here is a link to the code compliance website for glendale, AZ. http://www.glendaleaz.com/CodeCompliance/

Either one of these should be of help to you.

Cindy


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

where do i get antibiotics for my pigeon? online takes too long? can i give her human antibiotics?


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## Donna Miller (Dec 22, 2009)

The City of Glendale, Az can be contacted at (623) 930-2000 - thats a good start - if you rent there may be more to the issue than zoning.
You should call and inquire about regulations regarding keeping birds - there may be a limit to the ammount of birds you keep in relation to the size of your property. Good luck!
Donna


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jimhalekw said:


> Most cat owners are the worst for taking responsablity for their pet. Someone's cat can eat your pigeons and they will say oh well that's just what cats do, and then they continue to let them run free. Let your dog eat their cat just once and there is hell to pay. Cats can be taught not to eat birds if the owner cares enough when they are young. Imagine how many songbirds that cat has eaten. If that is someones cat and not a stray, they will usually take the bird home to eat it, so the owner knows from the feather piles what is going on, but still the cat runs free. If it is not someones cat then it won't be missed. Years ago I had a cat get into my loft through the trap. I had only gone in the house for 15 minutes, so I think the cat was waiting for the chance. Two weeks before I bought 18 young birds that were a week into loft flying at $110.00 each. The cat killed a couple of birds that I already had, but all those young birds took off except for one. Never saw them again, so in 15 minutes I lost 19 pigeons to one cat, if I sound a little cat bitter that is probably why. My own cat runs free and she is very well behaved. Jim


Wow Jim that's horrible about losing all those youngster's. That would have threw me over the top and then some! We have a lot of cats roaming around here but luckily for me they don't venture into my yard to often.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

i call them already says i can have as many as i want as long they dont do mess. and i dont rent i own.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

blackknight01 said:


> *i call them already says i can have as many as i want *as long they dont do mess. and i dont rent i own.


I would suggest you get something in writing regarding that *or* ask for the specific code in which it states you can have as pigeons as you want.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

can someone give me a name of antibiotics for pigeon so i can go to the store see if they have it


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

blackknight01 said:


> where do i get antibiotics for my pigeon? online takes too long? can i give her human antibiotics?


Yes, Amoxiclav, clavamox, etc. It's amoxicilin with clavulanic acid.
Does somebody know how much? If not I'll search it up while you go buy it.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

ok thanks on my way to store .


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Amoxicillin : An excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. Often good against Salmonella, E. coli, Strep. & Staph. species of bacteria. 

Dose : 50 mg per pigeon per day in divided doses. 3 grams (3000 mg) per gallon (4 liters). Treat for 5-10 days. 

Cephalexin : Another excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. Use like amoxicillin; it has a slightly broader anti-bacterial spectrum than amoxicillin. Dosed same as amoxicillin.

Cephalexin is used in dogs and cats so you can easily get it at a vet. There are more but those are pretty common.
http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html

EDIT:
I found a post by Jaye:
"If so....here is a Clavamox dosage I have been prescribed for a 315g Feral:

Clavamox (125mg/ml suspension): .4 cc 2x/day for 7-10 days."

How much does your bird weigh?

EDIT 2:
A thread about it.

A thread that contains a good post by Feefo.

Another post by Feefo... I think you should use this one.


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## Jivu (Feb 1, 2010)

Unfortunately, it's a risk you run when you let your birds out. My pigeon is always supervised when she's outside- you shouldn't substitute your dog's supervision for your own. Please don't blame a cat for doing something that comes naturally-- it sucks, yeah, but really, you ought to have been there, especially if you've only got two birds to begin with that don't really have the protection of a flock, and especially if this has happened before. It wouldn't be fair to harm the cat, or to upset neighbors that may not even be aware that their cat is causing a problem. I had a very dear cat that came home with a budgie once, and though it may have been a feral or one that'd gotten loose, I still opted to keep the cat indoors afterwards, once I discovered that he was trouble outside. Doing something to anyone's pet can be devastating--as you know--and it just wouldn't be right to play this as an eye for an eye.
If you do know the owner of the cat, it would be wise to inform them of the problem, and also of the fact that an outdoor cat is considered a stray, and can be picked up as such by local animal control. If you don't, you can always check with animal control and obtain a humane trap, and deliver the cat to your LOCAL animal control. That way, if the cat does have a concerned owner, they can still get their pet back, and also be made aware of the troubles of having an outdoor cat, and the issue that it is causing.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but as a pet owner of both a pigeon and a cat, I don't think dumping someone's pet far away is a very humane thing at all.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

The problem is that blackknight01 doesn't know if the cat is a stray, if it's somebody's pet, whose pet it is, etc.
Are local shelters kill shelters?


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

all i could find was duramycin-10 thats tetracycline hydrochloride soluble powder

will it work too and how much i have to put in water?, thats the only thing i could find around here


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

right now i dont care about the cat all i care is saving the life of my pigeon


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

i need help with duramycin pls, each pound contains 25g of tetracycline hydrochloride activity, the bag contains 10g so it has less than a pound


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2010)

Jivu said:


> Unfortunately, it's a risk you run when you let your birds out. My pigeon is always supervised when she's outside- you shouldn't substitute your dog's supervision for your own. Please don't blame a cat for doing something that comes naturally-- it sucks, yeah, but really, you ought to have been there, especially if you've only got two birds to begin with that don't really have the protection of a flock, and especially if this has happened before. It wouldn't be fair to harm the cat, or to upset neighbors that may not even be aware that their cat is causing a problem. I had a very dear cat that came home with a budgie once, and though it may have been a feral or one that'd gotten loose, I still opted to keep the cat indoors afterwards, once I discovered that he was trouble outside. Doing something to anyone's pet can be devastating--as you know--and it just wouldn't be right to play this as an eye for an eye.
> If you do know the owner of the cat, it would be wise to inform them of the problem, and also of the fact that an outdoor cat is considered a stray, and can be picked up as such by local animal control. If you don't, you can always check with animal control and obtain a humane trap, and deliver the cat to your LOCAL animal control. That way, if the cat does have a concerned owner, they can still get their pet back, and also be made aware of the troubles of having an outdoor cat, and the issue that it is causing.
> I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but as a pet owner of both a pigeon and a cat, I don't think dumping someone's pet far away is a very humane thing at all.


Im gonna agree here with Jivu ,his bird wasnt even in his yard when attacked first of all , he didnt even see the cat with the bird in mouth and like was said earlier a cat cant take down 2 birds at one time .. I have a few feral cats around me and in my yard at all times of the day plus the neighbors cats and none have ever interfeared with my birds ever , you have to be out there with your birds when they are let out of their pens its just a fact.. and even then hawks will attack them right in front of you and carry some off ... and Im sorry but in arizona you do have hawks and other birds of prey even thou you may think you dont ,arizona is a bird of prey hot spot .. Im sorry your bird was hurt  you really shouldnt be letting your birds fly around on other peoples propertys thou thats when it becomes a problem with your neighbors an then you wont be allowed to have any at all .


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

will duramycin work?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2010)

blackknight01 said:


> i need help with duramycin pls, each pound contains 25g of tetracycline hydrochloride activity, the bag contains 10g so it has less than a pound


tetracycline isnt going to do much for bite wounds ,do you know anyone in the area that has pigeons that might be able to help you ? or maybe you call your vet they will have something much better for that.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

i dont know anyone around here that has pigeons, meet some guys from the club but they are jerks so, no help at all. should i just water to clean it or something else?


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

ok thanks for the help.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Cat wounds are the worst thing when it comes to infection. Clavamox would be what to treat with. If this has happened before, then you need to keep something like that anyway. Do you have a vet where you could get it?

BTW, I have to agree with everything that Lokota said. I know how frustrating it is when someone elses cat comes into your yard and you have birds, but I think you said they were in a neighbors yard at the time. If you ask around, you may be able to find out who owns the cat and talk to them. That doesn't always work, but I'd try that first.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

it was my fault next time ill stay outside to watch them where they go and what they do, and yeah im getting clavamox just in case happens agains , wich i hope not, i wan to thanks everyone for the help and support, i really apriciate it guys, really.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

cant find clavamox in foys or jeeds any idea where i could get it?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can't get it without a veterinarain. Do you want the number of one in your area?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This rehabber is the closest to you. She probably has an antibiotic that will work. I suggest you call her asn ask if she will have a look at your bird. If she gives you antibiotic, please make a donation to her rehab. As most rehabbers, this is on her own dime.

Fallen Feathers 
Jody Kieran
Peoria, Arizona 
623-533-2348
www.fallenfeathers.org


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

hey charis i got that number from a veterinarinan too thanks, i call them but its too late already so, have to wait till 2morrow. can you believe i went to 3 diferent veterinarian and they dont do birds>?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*It's not too late to call the number*. I believe the rehab is in her home. I can give you numbers for veterinarins that do treat birds. You may need to dirve a ways though. *When you call a vet asking if they treat birds and if they say no, always ask them who does.*
Dr Hillary Frank
20 W. Dunlap Ave.
Phoenix, Az 85021
602-395-9825
emergency number
602-995-3757

Dr Funk
858 N. Country Club Dr
Mesa, Arizona 85201
480-833-7330

Dr Susan Goshert
19th Ave and Union Hills
Phoenix, Arizona
602-869-6629




Dr Wayne Svoboda
Dr Ritzman
3526 W. Glendale Ave
Phoenix, Arizona
602-841-1200

Dr Kevin Wright
744 N. Center Street
Mesa, Arizona
480-275-7017


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I am going against the grain here and saying no meds at all. Break down the immune system by using antibiotics and you will only hurt the bird in the long run. Pigeons can deal with so much on their own, and you can always stand by with the meds if needed. Jim


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jim...most of us, that do rehab and see Pigeon regularily that have been injured from bites, punctures or scratces, would highly disagree with you. I can't begin to tell you the numbers I have held and comforted as they die. Those that receive antibiotics *within 24 hours *of the injury, have a much better chance at survival.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

You can get Augmentin for humans or Cephalexin for cats and dogs.


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

well good news guys , i talk to her , the number i got from charis, i went to her house and left it there, shes taking care of my pigeon, shes gonna call me later to see how its doing. thanks everyone for all the help.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Jim...most of us, that do rehab and see Pigeon regularily that have been injured from bites, punctures or scratces, would highly disagree with you. I can't begin to tell you the numbers I have held and comforted as they die. Those that receive antibiotics within 24 hours of the injury, have a much better chance at survival.
__________________
Charis
Why were the ones that died not given meds? I am not talking about all animals, I am talking about pigeons only. For the past 23 years I have been involved with the local wild bird rehab, they know about wild birds, but I am the one that they turn to for pigeons. These are experts admitting that pigeons are so different that they don't comlpetely understand.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Maybe they were picked up when they were already dying? Or maybe where given up by the person who found them when there was no hope for them?
Dunno. From what I've seen and read, they do not have good chances of survival as most (but not all...) cats do carry that bacteria.
I've seen many dead birds who only seemed to have a small puncture wound...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jimhalekw said:


> Jim...most of us, that do rehab and see Pigeon regularily that have been injured from bites, punctures or scratces, would highly disagree with you. I can't begin to tell you the numbers I have held and comforted as they die. Those that receive antibiotics within 24 hours of the injury, have a much better chance at survival.
> __________________
> Charis
> *Why were the ones that died not given meds?* I am not talking about all animals, I am talking about pigeons only. For the past 23 years I have been involved with the local wild bird rehab, they know about wild birds, but I am the one that they turn to for pigeons. These are experts admitting that pigeons are so different that they don't comlpetely understand.




Because by the time I recieved them, they were dying. I'm talking about all birds, including Pigeons.
I've been involved in rehab for about the same amount of time time ...since May of 1986.


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## pigeon george (Aug 7, 2003)

I had a cat with collar harass my birds some years ago, I trapped him in a raccoon haveahart and gave him a severe water board treatment with the hose before opening the cage, afterwards I used to watch him pass the house, he always gave a quick look but never set foot on the property again, I was impressed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, that often works. Please don't ask me how I know that. LOL.


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## 95SPORTSTER (Jun 30, 2011)

.22 always solves the problem permanently lol especially with feral cats , and while I don't rehab I have had bird's hit by a hawk and just isolated it from the flock rather than stitch the wound up just crazy glued it feed and water warmth and isolation have been working.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

You can do what others have suggested to keep cats away from your pigeons. I have 4 indoor only cats, and my 2 indoor pet pigeons. Obviously the cats get locked up for the birds daily play time around the house. In the situations I believe you are referring to, alternative steps can be taken to keep the cats away from your birds, they are not like the hawks and raptors who are nearly impossible to deal with. Killing your neighbors cats is only going to cause you problems, plus you can call the ASPCA to have the ferals trapped and humanely euthanized, not shot.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not a very intelligent way to deal with feral cats. You should be keeping your birds safe without having to resort to killing other animals, some of which could belong to your neighbors.


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## pigeon george (Aug 7, 2003)

Yes true nobody wants to see fluffy with the pretty pink collar laying in the road for the school bus to see. However, my last home we had a lot of marsh and the crazy cat lady with the partial collapsed garage would feed at least a hundred feral cats. The time and cost to trap,spay feed find homes etc now I'm not talking kittens but the full grown ones that entered my yard with scars mangy looking, depending on the cat some did not leave
But up by blenheim mt, .22 works have to use the CB,s on the island cause there quite.
A neighbors cat will run from trouble and most woukd be sure not to take out a neighbors cat but at times the mess left behind by inconsiderates sometimes needs a different approach.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with Jay3 and wiggles and puddles. Not an intelligent nor humane way to deal with feral cats.


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## pigeon george (Aug 7, 2003)

Humane????? Cat trapped by a volunteer that checks them every two days....hopefully.
Scared cat transported to shelter again in cage, left in cage for how long before lethal injection?? Or sitting in edge of brush thinks it heard a noise, game over.Lights out.
In a perfect world we would not have any feral cats, and where a few are a nuisance fine trap and inject them but in an area that has been completely wiped out of wild quail pheasant. And rabbits due to feral cats when does one become intelligent????


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

pigeon george said:


> Humane????? Cat trapped by a volunteer that checks them every two days....hopefully.
> Scared cat transported to shelter again in cage, left in cage for how long before lethal injection?? Or sitting in edge of brush thinks it heard a noise, game over.Lights out.
> In a perfect world we would not have any feral cats, and where a few are a nuisance fine trap and inject them but in an area that has been completely wiped out of wild quail pheasant. And rabbits due to feral cats when does one become intelligent????


Every method has its flaws. You pointed out some and with the other... well lets hope the person is a good shot, otherwise that would be beyond cruel. This all boils down to responsible ownership so the unwanted pet population does not explode. I have paid out of my own pocket to have neighbor's cats spayed/neutered to prevent just such an occurrence. I believe in TNR (trap neuter return), as a lasting, humane method to control colony cats.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There is something wrong with the belief that any animal that gets in your way, or causes you problems, that you just have the right to kill it. That's wrong. In being human, a person should have more intelligence than to have to resort to handling things in such a basic fashion. 
I guess that if you had a dog and your neighbor found it to be a nuisance for one reason or another, that they should just have the right to shoot it. Same thing.


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## pigeon george (Aug 7, 2003)

Jay, not every situation is the same, I currently live in suburbs, I have neighbors cats come through the yard all the time, that's what cats do, I accept it, I have one we named socks with a clipped ear so this one has been taken in neutered and released somebody feeds this cat as I do when very cold. This cat will sit by the wild bird feeder and watch birds for hours never attacks, I also have two cats that I'm not sure about but their coats are bright and clean I clapp my hands when they poke around the coop and they run off,apparently well fed, I would never advocate removing any animal that somebody calls their pet, unless it is actively attacking someone.my last home was overun by cats with mangy coats,scars , eye infections on some,one missing and eye that were fed by a lady who wasn't right in the head living on section 8 but yet fed huge amounts of feral cats that wiped out wid rabbits and quail and pheasant, I have wild rabbits here I'm sure the outside cats get a few of the little ones and again, I have an indoor Cat cause that's what I believe, others have cats they let out during the day,that's there choice, I'm not saying kill them all but in the other situation that was drastic I felt I was in fact doing what needed to be done, I did it as painless as possible. Also at that time there was a collard cat
Harassing my birds, but he was someone's pet that's the one that got trapped and watered with the hose,after that he would pass the house shoot a look and scurry across the street, that made me chuckle every time I saw him


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## christispigeons (May 28, 2015)

I agree with you pigeon George on both sides of this issue. Helping to train a neighbor's pet to avoid it harming your pets, but never harm it. Unless it starts killing your pets......then you have to decide the best way to handle it. As far as overpopulated hoarders with sick and diseased cats, death is much more humane. I have lived by such a house. It is heartbreaking and I had wished I had the courage to put these poor suffering animals out of their misery. If SPCA takes care of it, that would be great, but that not always happens.
I love the water board story! Too bad I have already scared the neighborhood cats from me by chasing them, or I would catch and try this method.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

Pigeongeorge I agree with you on one point, and that is in having indoor only cats. If people were more responsible and spayed and neutered their cats, we would not be overrun with unwanted cats and kittens. If they were kept indoors, the bird fanciers would have no reason to dislike them. That and you know your cats would be safe from coyotes and other predators.


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