# Young dove (?) found



## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Hi everyone!

I am looking for some guidance. Yesterday when on a walk with my kids we came across this little fellow stranded in the road. No nest or parents in sight, so we took him home as there are lots of cats living in our estate. Yesterday he was so scared that just tried to peck me every time I handled him and the only bit of food I managed to get into him was a tiny bit of bread soaked in water. He survived the night and today, upon doing some research, I mashed some defrosted sweetcorn and peas for him and offered it in a syringe-latex feeder which he happily used but not sure how much food he actually got as he made quite a mess and to me it seems that the 'shells' of the peas and sweetcorn may pose a bit of a challenge as he seems so little? I tried some soaked dog food later but he refused to touch it. I also offered some water, just in a small cup by his beak and I think he took some. He squeaks a lot and seems generally more relaxed now.

I have few questions: is it actually a dove? We live in Dubai and have many of them flying around. 
How old is it? I keep looking at pictures and my guess would be 7 days or so, but I'm not sure.
Does he still need to be kept warm? We live in a very hot country and even as it's winter now the temperature is quite pleasant with the average of 25 most days. The bird feels warm to the touch.
I will go to the pet shop to get some food for him but in the meantime - what can I feed him? Should I try to force feed him peas and corn by forcing him to open his beak? Will that be OK? Won't he choke? They look massive compared to his beak! When will he be old enough to eat grains? And would I still have to provide gravel if I let him roam in the garden?
Any other advice?

I've had two young bulbuls die on me in the past (but they were extremely young and badly injured), so I am really hoping to keep this one alive!

Thanks a lot for any help!


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

feronique said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I am looking for some guidance. Yesterday when on a walk with my kids we came across this little fellow stranded in the road. No nest or parents in sight, so we took him home as there are lots of cats living in our estate. Yesterday he was so scared that just tried to peck me every time I handled him and the only bit of food I managed to get into him was a tiny bit of bread soaked in water. He survived the night and today, upon doing some research, I mashed some defrosted sweetcorn and peas for him and offered it in a syringe-latex feeder which he happily used but not sure how much food he actually got as he made quite a mess and to me it seems that the 'shells' of the peas and sweetcorn may pose a bit of a challenge as he seems so little? I tried some soaked dog food later but he refused to touch it. I also offered some water, just in a small cup by his beak and I think he took some. He squeaks a lot and seems generally more relaxed now.
> 
> ...


Answers to your questions-
1)Yes it is a dove probably a laughing dove.
2) 2/3 weeks
3)Yes he still needs to be kept warm.Don't keep him outside. I live in Dubai but you can't trust the weather. Since its winter it is sometimes really cold or really hot.
4)Mash the peas and corns into mush then give him a small amount. You put some in his mouth after its in small enough and mashed.You have to teach him how to eat seed when he is older. Yes grit would be nice but he doesn't need it right now. Plus when he is grown letting him out in your garden isn't a good idea. He might fly away and a predator might catch him. Human imprinted birds should never be left outside.

Some other advice-
Can you get some baby parrot food(kaytee) ? That would be good for him.

If you need more advice feel free to ask =).


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Dotty said:


> Answers to your questions-
> 1)Yes it is a dove probably a laughing dove.
> 2) 2/3 weeks
> 3)Yes he still needs to be kept warm.Don't keep him outside. I live in Dubai but you can't trust the weather. Since its winter it is sometimes really cold or really hot.
> ...


Thank you!
Heat-wise I was just wondering if I need to provide extra heating. It is freezing outside at the moment so I am obviously not keeping him out. He is staying inside and A/C is off, so I guess the temperature is around 23+ in the house. Is that enough for him. I have no heaters or lamps I could use on him at the moment.

I will buy some baby parrot food when I get a chance. At the moment I have resorted to oats soaked in water and he absolutely loved it. I may take him to a vet tomorrow just to see if he is generally in good health.

I hope he makes it but you really got me worried with the vision of not releasing him. I was hoping that if I give him enough exposure to the outside environment he may end up joining his lot - we have flocks of doves nesting all over the place. They are all over the place most of the time. If I leave him alone - but for feeding and cleaning - and give him enough outside time, is there no chance for him to live freely in the end?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dotty has given good advice. But as far as the releasing, it's true that he shouldn't be let outside, where he could fly to somewhere where you cannot get to him, and he isn't ready to go yet. I also understand that you cannot keep or find a home for every bird you help. The problem comes when a baby is hand raised, and then doesn't know how to survive in the wild, because he didn't have his parents and flock to teach him the things he must know. People do release them into a flock however and that gives them a better chance at survival then going it alone. I don't believe a caged dove or pigeon is as happy as they would be living the feral life they were meant to live. So I would try a soft release into the flock that comes there when he is ready. If you leave feed/water out there for them, then he would have some support at least until he was able to find food 
and water. He could make it, or not. You would take your time with him, and let him go with the flock when he is ready. 
Do you feed the doves that come there?


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Dotty has given good advice. But as far as the releasing, it's true that he shouldn't be let outside, where he could fly to somewhere where you cannot get to him, and he isn't ready to go yet. I also understand that you cannot keep or find a home for every bird you help. The problem comes when a baby is hand raised, and then doesn't know how to survive in the wild, because he didn't have his parents and flock to teach him the things he must know. People do release them into a flock however and that gives them a better chance at survival then going it alone. I don't believe a caged dove or pigeon is as happy as they would be living the feral life they were meant to live. So I would try a soft release into the flock that comes there when he is ready. If you leave feed/water out there for them, then he would have some support at least until he was able to find food
> and water. He could make it, or not. You would take your time with him, and let him go with the flock when he is ready.
> Do you feed the doves that come there?


Thank you for giving me hope. Yes, I was reading about soft release and I hope - if he makes it - that that would be his future. 
I do not feed the doves as such but they just seem to live all over the place anyway - they often come and stroll in our garden pecking at the grass. I guess my messy kids sort of feed them by taking food into the garden and leaving it lying around. But even without food they are literally everywhere. I even had one fly into our kitchen through an open door a couple of times.


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

feronique said:


> Thank you!
> Heat-wise I was just wondering if I need to provide extra heating. It is freezing outside at the moment so I am obviously not keeping him out. He is staying inside and A/C is off, so I guess the temperature is around 23+ in the house. Is that enough for him. I have no heaters or lamps I could use on him at the moment.
> 
> I will buy some baby parrot food when I get a chance. At the moment I have resorted to oats soaked in water and he absolutely loved it. I may take him to a vet tomorrow just to see if he is generally in good health.
> ...



That sounds okay =). Also if you need to give him a heat source in case of emergency you just take a water bottle and heat it then cover it with a towel and put it under him.

Yeah that sounds good regarding food. I wouldn't take him to the vet. Cause I have been to vets here in Dubai and they don't know much about pigeons/doves and give advice that does more harm. Its a waste of money. They overcharge too.

If you need help regarding his health you can contact me. I can help you regarding medications and basic care.

A simple check up you can do-
Is there any discharge from his eyes or nostrils?
Can you check his throat with a flash light and see if there is any yellow sticky stuff ?
Is he active and looks healthy?
Can you send a pic of his poop?



You can do a soft release. He doesn't look too young so he isn't that heavily imprinted. It depends on the personality too. If he is skittish and wild like he has more chances of making it out there then having to be kept in a home. But if he is really attached and becomes really 
tame then I don't think that its a good idea to set him free.


How to do a soft release-
1) Make sure the area is safe.
2) Put him in a cage and let him see other doves
3) Slowly integrate him to the other doves.
4)Spend little time as possible with him(only feeding and cleaning). Cause if he is going to be a wild bird he must be scared of humans.


Just wondering is there a laughing dove nest near by which is safe?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If released, he would do much better and have a much better chance if you were to leave feed/water in your garden where he knows where it is. When released, he will not know where to find food or water and would starve if he cannot come back to a source of food and water that he can use till he does learn. Without that, he won't have much chance.
Dotty can help you a lot as she is in the same area. She knows what is available there, and what you can and can't do.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Dotty said:


> Yeah that sounds good regarding food. I wouldn't take him to the vet. Cause I have been to vets here in Dubai and they don't know much about pigeons/doves and give advice that does more harm. Its a waste of money. They overcharge too.
> 
> If you need help regarding his health you can contact me. I can help you regarding medications and basic care.
> 
> ...


Dotty, his eyes and nostrils are clean. You can find the picture of his poo below. He just sits there and doesn't do much most of the time, although at feeding time he flaps his wings like mad. He seemed quite happy when I put him on the grass for a bit. Also not sure I can check his throat but I will try.

I am limiting handling him to feeding times. A bit more difficult with the kids, but I am trying to keep them away from him as much as I can. 

There is a dove nest on our neighbours' tree but high up. Also I guess there are lots on roofs and in tall trees that grow just outside our wall, but nothing I could reach in any way.

I know what you mean about vets here. The little bulbul we didn't manage to save cost me over 500 dirhams in medical bills... Still, I trust themmore than I trust myself. I'm just really scared that I will break the bird somehow when I handle him or that I will miss warning signs of serious illness, or that he doesn't get enough nutrition...

Also any idea when I can try indtroducing grains and what sort is best? Can I just buy some canary/parakeet/parrot food and place it there for him?


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> If released, he would do much better and have a much better chance if you were to leave feed/water in your garden where he knows where it is. When released, he will not know where to find food or water and would starve if he cannot come back to a source of food and water that he can use till he does learn. Without that, he won't have much chance.
> Dotty can help you a lot as she is in the same area. She knows what is available there, and what you can and can't do.


I will definitely do it when it comes to it. I am happy for him to stay within our garden area - we have a lot of doves nest all over the place or I could even leave the cage available to him, but I would just like to see him fly around unrestricted rather than contain him. I hope it works out like that.


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

feronique said:


> Dotty, his eyes and nostrils are clean. You can find the picture of his poo below. He just sits there and doesn't do much most of the time, although at feeding time he flaps his wings like mad. He seemed quite happy when I put him on the grass for a bit. Also not sure I can check his throat but I will try.
> 
> I am limiting handling him to feeding times. A bit more difficult with the kids, but I am trying to keep them away from him as much as I can.
> 
> ...



You can start after 1 week showing him how to eat. Use your finger in a pecking potion and do sideways movement has if your looking for something.

I would get him pigeon mix. Check there aren't weevils(rice beetles) though.
They can contain parasites.

Concerning the vets I am going to be honest with you. The second you leave them there your bird is doomed. The will make things worse and give the wrong treatment.

If the dove is too hard for you to take care of I can take him and check his health and do a soft release when he is older.

I have done a soft release before and have been rescuing birds for some time now.

For the poop it doesn't look normal.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Dotty said:


> You can start after 1 week showing him how to eat. Use your finger in a pecking potion and do sideways movement has if your looking for something.
> 
> I would get him pigeon mix. Check there aren't weevils(rice beetles) though.
> They can contain parasites.
> ...


I wouldn't leave him at the vets, as I don't think he needs to be hospitalized but I would just like to know if he is generally in good health and if he is getting enough food of the right quality. 

Any idea what problem the poo may indicate? Maybe it has something to do with his oats diet? 

I'm more than happy to look after him and release him myself, but it would be comforting to have someone check him. I am a complete aviary ignorant - to me even identifying his crop poses a huge challenge and only now I think I finally managed to establish where it is and what it looks like. I live in Silicon Oasis, so happy to bring him to you if you would be kind enough to have a look at him. To me all small birds look as if they had serious developmental issues, as they look so rough and helpless...


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

feronique said:


> I wouldn't leave him at the vets, as I don't think he needs to be hospitalized but I would just like to know if he is generally in good health and if he is getting enough food of the right quality.
> 
> Any idea what problem the poo may indicate? Maybe it has something to do with his oats diet?
> 
> I'm more than happy to look after him and release him myself, but it would be comforting to have someone check him. I am a complete aviary ignorant - to me even identifying his crop poses a huge challenge and only now I think I finally managed to establish where it is and what it looks like. I live in Silicon Oasis, so happy to bring him to you if you would be kind enough to have a look at him. To me all small birds look as if they had serious developmental issues, as they look so rough and helpless...


It could be parasites or coccidosis. Only way to know for sure is to check with a microscope and observe the symptoms.

Can you drive to Al Karama ? If you have whatsapp private message me your number and I will add you and send the map to my location.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Dotty, I have sent you a private message via the forum. Looking forward to hearing from you!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The droppings aren't all that bad, and not cocci. Probably just diet, and besides poops are not perfect all the time, and a babies droppings can be off. You do need to make sure he is getting enough food and water tho. How is he getting water? Putting it in his beak is risky as you can aspirate him.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> The droppings aren't all that bad, and not cocci. Probably just diet, and besides poops are not perfect all the time, and a babies droppings can be off. You do need to make sure he is getting enough food and water tho. How is he getting water? Putting it in his beak is risky as you can aspirate him.


He is eating fine - for the first two days I was giving him some porridge oats with water and now got some baby bird formula and seeds. Today I also managed to get a few defrosted peas/sweetcorn kernels in him using your method but I found it much too stressful - I'm basically scared I would twist his neck. So it's formula and oats for now and he is doing well. He gets it 3-4 times a day. He also accosted a random adult dove in my garden today and fed from it.
Water is a worry, which is why I make his oats a bit runny. He has access to water and seeds, as they are in his cage, but he won't touch it and he does not really drink when offered. A few times a day I take a small cup (one for measuring medicines) and I offer it so that just the bottom of his beak gets slightly wet. I think he drinks some this way, but definitely not much. Is there any chance that water from the food will keep him hydrated enough?
Apart from the poo he seems ok - walking and hopping around, growing his feathers. I am planning to start weighing him as well to control his weight gain.
Currently, my main worry is him imprinting on us too much and ending up with no social life among the other doves.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why was he outside where he could get to another dove? He should not be out at all right now. A hawk can swoop in quickly and grab him. They are everywhere. Just because you don't see them does not mean they aren't there. He can also pick up disease from other birds outside.

This dove is so small, and really needs an experienced person who has gone through this before. Why not bring him to Dotty who is experienced and could raise him for you. If you like, maybe he could be released later in your garden. His chances would really be much better. I know you care about him and are doing your best, but sometimes experience is what is needed. If it were me, in your situation, that is what I would do. I would want to do what is best for the baby. That is really what is important here. Can you consider that option?


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Why was he outside where he could get to another dove? He should not be out at all right now. A hawk can swoop in quickly and grab him. They are everywhere. Just because you don't see them does not mean they aren't there. He can also pick up disease from other birds outside.
> 
> This dove is so small, and really needs an experienced person who has gone through this before. Why not bring him to Dotty who is experienced and could raise him for you. If you like, maybe he could be released later in your garden. His chances would really be much better. I know you care about him and are doing your best, but sometimes experience is what is needed. If it were me, in your situation, that is what I would do. I would want to do what is best for the baby. That is really what is important here. Can you consider that option?


Why shouldn't he be outside? He is a wild bird, after all? And at his current age he would be out of his nest on the ground already anyway. From my research, the laughing doves leave nest at 11-12 days old, then live on the ground for 4-5 days before they learn to fly and fledge for good. And I've had birds his age living in my bush (which is his place of choice when I let him out) before, until they disappeared (yes, they may have got eaten by a cat or a hawk at night, but I can't capture and incarcerate every wild bird in the compound to make sure nothing bad befalls them). He already flies a little bit, he is well fed (I hope), running like a pro, so why shouldn't I let him roam in the garden? I have lived here for 5 years and have never seen a bird of prey in the compound, I really believe that the odds of one coming into the garden and snatching this bird from the bush when I am watching him are so thin it is really an unreasonable worry. Yes, where he was originally - in the middle of the street, with no shrubs in sight, in the street frequently visited by cats his chances of survival were near to none. With me watching over him, in my own garden that I have been using for five years now and that has seen young birds finding safe shelter here before - I think he is REASONABLY safe.

And when he got to the other bird he was actually in the cage. He mostly ignores other doves (I put feed on the ground around his cage, so he can watch and learn), but that one dove set him off and he started flapping his wings widely at the side of the cage. I thought maybe it was his parent, so I set him free. He ran up to the bird (I stayed close as I was afraid the other one may attack him), the little one sort of rubbed against the big guy's chest and then fed from his beak. Then the older one chased all other adult doves away from our garden, so I thought maybe he was actually a parent, but then he disappeared and left my little fellow on his own again. We actually found him quite close to our house, so I would not be surprised if his parents were among our regularly visiting doves - I'm just not sure if they would still recognize him now and whether they would be happy to look after him.

Answering your further questions - yes, he is going to Dotty, but I can't get to her place before Friday, so he unfortunately has to bear with me until then. I hope he makes it and yes, the plan is to release him in my garden once he's big enough. The main reason I will give him to Dotty is my kids, who may unfortunately love him to his literal death if he stays with us. 

But regarding other comments you made, I think even the most experienced person had their first rescue once. It is our fourth or fifth baby bird actually, as where we live you see them all the time. All other ones were very badly maimed, cost me a fortune in vet fees and despite my best efforts didn't make it. This is the first bird I managed to handle successfully (so far), for which I'm proud but also grateful to lovely people on this forum. It took a lot of googling, a lot of reading and one thing that comes from extensive research is that nothing is black and white, even though some people would like to see it that way. And to be honest I'm not sure what is the bird's outlook - whether this particular one puts more value on quality or on length of life? Maybe he'd rather live for one day roaming freely in the garden than spend months in a cage? Or maybe not? Or maybe he will never be happy, as he has this experience of being separated from his parents at the young age that will then traumatize him for life? I don't know and you seem to pretend you do (I'm saying from reading your posts in general on this forum, not just in this thread). Please accept the fact that anyone who comes on this forum is trying to help another living being in the best way they believe is right. These are most likely birds that would long be dead if it wasn't for human kindness and compassion. They will all die in the end, as will we. Maybe this lack of indifference is what is commendable enough and what matters in the grand scheme of things?


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

feronique said:


> Why shouldn't he be outside? He is a wild bird, after all? And at his current age he would be out of his nest on the ground already anyway. From my research, the laughing doves leave nest at 11-12 days old, then live on the ground for 4-5 days before they learn to fly and fledge for good. And I've had birds his age living in my bush (which is his place of choice when I let him out) before, until they disappeared (yes, they may have got eaten by a cat or a hawk at night, but I can't capture and incarcerate every wild bird in the compound to make sure nothing bad befalls them). He already flies a little bit, he is well fed (I hope), running like a pro, so why shouldn't I let him roam in the garden? I have lived here for 5 years and have never seen a bird of prey in the compound, I really believe that the odds of one coming into the garden and snatching this bird from the bush when I am watching him are so thin it is really an unreasonable worry. Yes, where he was originally - in the middle of the street, with no shrubs in sight, in the street frequently visited by cats his chances of survival were near to none. With me watching over him, in my own garden that I have been using for five years now and that has seen young birds finding safe shelter here before - I think he is REASONABLY safe.
> 
> And when he got to the other bird he was actually in the cage. He mostly ignores other doves (I put feed on the ground around his cage, so he can watch and learn), but that one dove set him off and he started flapping his wings widely at the side of the cage. I thought maybe it was his parent, so I set him free. He ran up to the bird (I stayed close as I was afraid the other one may attack him), the little one sort of rubbed against the big guy's chest and then fed from his beak. Then the older one chased all other adult doves away from our garden, so I thought maybe he was actually a parent, but then he disappeared and left my little fellow on his own again. We actually found him quite close to our house, so I would not be surprised if his parents were among our regularly visiting doves - I'm just not sure if they would still recognize him now and whether they would be happy to look after him.
> 
> ...


The reason is cause it winter and is already human imprinted. If his parents were with him they would still feed him and teach him things. You think its safe but you can't be sure. Predators like cats are very smart. Sometimes people set there falcons free or they escape. How will it know what animal is dangerous and how to get away? It needs to be taught.

Times change and suddenly. You think its safe but out of nowhere things happen. It has caught so many people off guard. Not everyone has luck all the time.

Regarding the adult dove even if it was the parent it cannot help him. Once its out of the nest the protection and the parent raising it properly is gone. Also dove could have illnesses you cannot see. 


Bless you for trying. 
Yes I agree everyone has their first rescue. But the difference is people learn from mistakes and listen to more knowledgably members. When we continuously question and let our emotional feelings cloud our judgement it becomes a problem. Also cannot Google answer all your questions. Sometimes the answer is vague and lacking info. It can also be incorrect. There are other factors not only one answer.

People who rescue birds have first hand knowledge which is more than google can provide. You came here asking for advice we are giving you ''Facts'' not our opinions. We are telling you so the bird has a better chance. This is not about winning an argument its about what is best for the bird.

Plus Jay is a knowledgeable and active member. He as a harsh but honest approach . I admire him greatly and am happy to met such a great person like him.

Me and Jay spend our own free time helping you. The few knowledgeable members aren't so active due to being busy. Other members cannot answer your questions due to lack of knowledge.

Plus to be honest there is no proper dove/pigeon bird rescuer in U.A.E. If I had someone helping me out I would be grateful. I spent so much time on my birds and rescuing them. A vet cannot even help you regarding this matter. 


Again we don't want to offend you. We are just explaining to you. No one wants to fight or hurt others feelings.You have good heart and may God bless you for that. Thank you for listening to me.

I promise you the bird will be happy and once I return him to you he will be able to find a mate and survive. Perhaps he will build a nest in you garden too and you will get to experience his offspring growing.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Dotty said:


> The reason is cause it winter and is already human imprinted. If his parents were with him they would still feed him and teach him things. You think its safe but you can't be sure. Predators like cats are very smart. Sometimes people set there falcons free or they escape. How will it know what animal is dangerous and how to get away? It needs to be taught.


Dotty, I know it's winter but it's been 26-28 degrees all day today. I think it is warm enough for a bird his age, as - as I have said - he would be out of the nest by this age anyway, having to survive on the ground until he could fly. Of course I can't be sure if nothing totally unexpected is going to happen and I know that things can happen - they always can - but I think there is a risk we can take. We had a cat actually today in the garden but I was there so I defended him, just as his parents would if they were there I guess. From what I have read about soft release one of the ways to teach him how to react to danger is by exposing him to other birds and letting him observe them, which is exactly why he is out all day long (sometimes in the cage, sometimes in the hedge), where he can for example see other birds scurrying away at the sight of humans. 



Dotty said:


> Times change and suddenly. You think its safe but out of nowhere things happen. It has caught so many people off guard. Not everyone has luck all the time.
> Bless you for trying.
> Yes I agree everyone has their first rescue. But the difference is people learn from mistakes and listen to more knowledgably members. When we continuously question and let our emotional feelings cloud our judgement it becomes a problem. Also cannot Google answer all your questions. Sometimes the answer is vague and lacking info. It can also be incorrect. There are other factors not only one answer.


Yes, I go with what I read on proper bird rescue centres' websites as well as peoples experience and that's what led me to believe that there isn't just one way of doing things the right way. There are as many approaches as there are people. And, as you can sea time and time again, people are more likely to learn from their own mistakes than from those made by others. So far we are on day 6 of the bird being with us - and he is still alive, growing and learning to fly and self-feed. More than I ever hoped for when we first found him.



Dotty said:


> People who rescue birds have first hand knowledge which is more than google can provide. You came here asking for advice we are giving you ''Facts'' not our opinions. We are telling you so the bird has a better chance. This is not about winning an argument its about what is best for the bird.


But how does anyone know what is best for the bird. This was my point. It is a philosophical question that everyone could answer according to their own system of values. Someone who values freedom would perhaps say the best for the bird is to just let it be, regardless if he is going to get eaten. Someone who values health would say 'medicate him, take him to the vet'. Someone who values life above all could say 'Keep him in the cage, domesticate him and never let out.' And someone who comes from a pigeon eating community would say 'Keep him, feed him well, cook him.' Etc. So the facts given are in fact just opinions, based on people's system of values and personal outlook, as I guess it's difficult to judge what the bird 'thinks'. It is just safe to assume, I guess, that the bird itself doesn't put that much thought into the existence-related matters at all.

My take is that it is a wild animal. OK, I took it in and saved it from certain death (death that will come for it at some other point anyway, hopefully when it's much older). I don't want to seem ungrateful, as I do appreciate all the advice regarding feeding. I have just read a lot of threads and I see constantly people being jumped at for not following this or that part of advice, when in fact they have already done more than most people would and I think it's beautiful and should earn them more recognition, so that the next time they have a chance to help someone, they do it, rather than give up from the start from being discouraged the first time they tried and did their best, as I'm sure we all do.



Dotty said:


> Plus to be honest there is no proper dove/pigeon bird rescuer in U.A.E. If I had someone helping me out I would be grateful. I spent so much time on my birds and rescuing them. A vet cannot even help you regarding this matter.


If you think there is not enough support in the UAE for rescuing pigeons just wait until you try to rescue a human being. I spent the whole last year doing that and the level of frustration brought me to the edge of mental breakdown. Fortunately there are people like you and hopefully a couple of others who try and who are prepared to devote their time to those less fortunate - regardless of species.



Dotty said:


> I promise you the bird will be happy and once I return him to you he will be able to find a mate and survive. Perhaps he will build a nest in you garden too and you will get to experience his offspring growing.


I'm looking forward, as I'm looking forward to seeing you on Friday. I'm sure he will love it and I hope he will be happy to return to us and live in Silicon Oasis once he's grown and learnt how to fend for himself. Our garden now looks like an aviary (or like a scene from Hitchcock) thanks to the bird feeding that I started and I will keep on going with that when he returns to us, so that he always can come and feel welcome, as can all the other birds.


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## Dotty (Nov 4, 2016)

feronique said:


> Dotty, I know it's winter but it's been 26-28 degrees all day today. I think it is warm enough for a bird his age, as - as I have said - he would be out of the nest by this age anyway, having to survive on the ground until he could fly. Of course I can't be sure if nothing totally unexpected is going to happen and I know that things can happen - they always can - but I think there is a risk we can take. We had a cat actually today in the garden but I was there so I defended him, just as his parents would if they were there I guess. From what I have read about soft release one of the ways to teach him how to react to danger is by exposing him to other birds and letting him observe them, which is exactly why he is out all day long (sometimes in the cage, sometimes in the hedge), where he can for example see other birds scurrying away at the sight of humans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am just going to reply to these 3 quotes.

Yes birds learn from other birds. But some birds have different personalities and don't understand. There is a level of tameness + plus personality. A cat is much faster than you and the bird due to its age. Not all cats will back down. Some are aggressive to humans too. The birds flight is not fully developed.

One question- If he is learning from other birds to fear humans and other things etc Has he ? He still thinks that humans are safe and is okay with your family and approaches. A naïve baby thinks all humans are safe. The world is not kind everyone is a predator. He must know that. You cannot be friends or have that loving relationship with a ''wild bird''. It will do more harm than good.


We are advising you how to make him a ''wild bird''. As you wanted. The main idea is being lost here. We are not telling you to keep has a pet etc. No other dove is going to teach him for you period.

Why should a strange dove take care of him ? It has no reason too. Doves attack and fight other doves regardless if its a ''baby''. For cats if the mother isn't present the kitten would be killed by adult cat and other causes.

All wild animals think only for themselves. They do not have the ability to reason and train of thought like we do. Do not think a random wild animal will accept a ''orphan''. Life doesn't work like that.

Regarding giving people advice. We are not discouraging anyone. If the person is sensitive you cannot blame the person advising him. We are telling them what to do. How does school work ? Teacher has to give criticism and same time be gentle. The student has to grow and learn mistakes in order to grow. Me and Jay are being polite and honest. We are giving more advice/help than just ''feeding''.

I am offering to raise him for you. I offered healthcare and other things. All of this things for free. I asked nothing from you. You will not find any person willing to do that here. I feel as if you are not understanding what I am saying and how much I am willing to do for this bird. By continuously questioning us when we have told you the answer and lack of thank you would you feel good if someone spoke to you in the same manner ?

I understand and bless you for that.I try to help other things besides birds too. But lets focus on the main topic. This is about the'' bird'' not other things.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Dotty said:


> I am just going to reply to these 3 quotes.
> 
> Yes birds learn from other birds. But some birds have different personalities and don't understand. There is a level of tameness + plus personality. A cat is much faster than you and the bird due to its age. Not all cats will back down. Some are aggressive to humans too. The birds flight is not fully developed.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate - like I said many times - all the advice and your offer of help. For now what matters to me the most is that the bird has survived with my irresponsible parenting so far and I just hope he has no underlying condition I was unable to spot from lack of expertise. He seems a happy little fellow and is definitely going to stay in our hearts forever. I can't wait to see what you are doing for the birds and how you are doing it, so that I can apply it in the future, as once the spring comes I guess there will be further rescues here, and hopefully I won't always have to ship them off to your place. I would love to do my bit properly as well. So far it seems to be working and it's just one more day now before he leaves for your 'bird preschool' experience - I am excited, even if a bit sad. 

And please, don't feel offended. As I said - I was also referring to other threads I have seen here. I'm sure someone who tried to help and failed (due to own ideas proving to be bad ones, due to lack of resources, lack of knowledge, lack of experience or whatever else) feels guilty enough (as I have before when I couldn't save my previous birds), and should be supported in becoming a better rescuer for the future, rather than attacked for 'not doing enough'.

I would love to be able to help more and do something on a larger scale here in the UAE. No idea yet how, but maybe I will think of something. I think the problem is it is a relatively young country and a lot of institutions that evolved over many years in other locations just haven't had time to develop here. And I also think the materialistic culture doesn't help, neither does the status of Dubai as a temporary place, with people coming and going all the time. 

My experience with a vet here was actually a mixture of good and bad - I saw they wanted to help but as they answer to the clinic management they can't just use the resources for rescuing wildlife freely, as those aren't theirs to spend. It is sad and frustrating for people who would like to help. It would be much easier to have a 'go to' place where you can just leave cases like this with experts, no matter how hopeless the situation may seem, and know that they are not just going to let them die.

And I still believe that every little act of kindness counts and that what you are doing is beautiful.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't know why you got so defensive. Most people who come on with a found bird would be happy to be able to give it to an experienced member to raise. I know I would have years ago when I came home with 6 babies. 
And as to your question of "why shouldn't he be outside?"
He shouldn't be outside because he can suddenly find his wings and fly up to where you cannot get him. He isn't ready to go, and then what would you do? Even if you feel that at his age he would be outside. That would be different, as in normal circumstances, he would have his parents there to watch over him, and they would be teaching him. This little one doesn't have that, so if outside where no one can get him, he wouldn't survive. The parents teach them where to find food and to avoid predators. All the things he doesn't know. People have brought their birds outside before ready, and had them suddenly fly off, when they didn't think they could, and lost them. That is why we tell you he shouldn't be put outside.


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## feronique (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Don't know why you got so defensive. Most people who come on with a found bird would be happy to be able to give it to an experienced member to raise. I know I would have years ago when I came home with 6 babies.
> And as to your question of "why shouldn't he be outside?"
> He shouldn't be outside because he can suddenly find his wings and fly up to where you cannot get him. He isn't ready to go, and then what would you do? Even if you feel that at his age he would be outside. That would be different, as in normal circumstances, he would have his parents there to watch over him, and they would be teaching him. This little one doesn't have that, so if outside where no one can get him, he wouldn't survive. The parents teach them where to find food and to avoid predators. All the things he doesn't know. People have brought their birds outside before ready, and had them suddenly fly off, when they didn't think they could, and lost them. That is why we tell you he shouldn't be put outside.


As I have said - he is going to Dotty's tomorrow. I am very happy for him to find a place, I just feel guilty dumping him on someone else. I would love to be able to do more for him.

With the flying I get your point. He really did actually surprise me with how well he's doing - he can easily fly some half metre up, if not higher. Still it's more of a jump/wings flapping than a proper flight but it definitely won't be long before he takes off for good. We have a two metre wall around the garden, but still - not to push his luck on his last day with us - he is in his cage for now, as our next door neighbour has a very boisterous young labrador and I'd hate the bird to get across there and become his toy/breakfast. Even though I really trust my reflexes as I am well trained by my toddler who is faster than light and seems to have a very strong death wish.


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