# Platinum Homers



## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Just wondering if anybody has any platinum homers out there? They are a HARD color to find. Does anybody have any info on them?

Thanks


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

A picture of this color?


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

I will get one posted soon.

Thanks


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Young platinum hen. She hasent fully moulted yet.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Since platinum is the lightest form of blue in the world,sometimes u get a white bird with either red or grey flecks in the neck.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Such as this bird.


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## RockPigeon<3er (Aug 2, 2012)

Pretty. We have a few chickens like that, however the ends of the feathers are a darker blue. But if you took off the dark blue it'd look like that.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Yeah in chickens it is considerd self blue.


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## gsstage2 (Jul 2, 2009)

That looks to be Ash Red


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Pouter Guy said:


> Such as this bird.


where are the flecks?? 
looks typical recessive white to me.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

I will get a upclose pic soon. This bird had alot of flecking before the moult. It is NOT rec white or ash red. It is the rarest form of blue in the world called platinum.


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## gsstage2 (Jul 2, 2009)

Curious as the where the color "Platinum" comes from, do you have a genetic background on how it came about? Certain breeds molt white after the first molt and most are blue based reds. Not to say anything negative, I am just curious on "Platinum", I am familiar with the color "Lemon" or a "super dilute" but there is documentation to support. Can you steer us in the direction to show how this color came about? Do you happen to have a better picture?


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

What color are the offspring from the whitest version mated with a blue bar? (Question for the provider of the photos.)

I'm thinking it looks like a combination of spread, indigo (****. indigo in the white version), reduced and maybe dirty and/or smokey altering the expression between birds.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Sorry guys. I have been busy this weekend. I will get some upclose pics tommorrow.
These are YOUNG birds,ok? They will moult(atleast the hen will) into a very even color of blue. They are quite a bit lighter than a lavender fully moulted out. I have had these birds since july so I have not had a chance to breed them. And tmass,I dont have just regular BB's. I raise rare colored homers along with my pouters and thats it.
There is VERY limited documentation on platinum. It is probly the rarest color in the world.

Thanks


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Neither picture looks like platinum. Platinum is found in Pomeranian eye crested high fliers. They do not produce white coloration by itself. They have a spread recessive opal look but the hens with spread are dark charcoal color with silver gray and some specks with a bronze neck. The cocks are light when combined with spread black but look like a reduced or spread opal but they have a bronze neck. In both sexes the flights and tail tend to be darker than the wing shield. It is a recessive color like recessive opal and with spread black the color is always different between the two sexes. Hens are always darker than the males and they have different markings in the flights. The cocks have a sparrow marking in the flights the hens do not. It is a recessive color and not sex linked but is sex influenced just like in many chicken colors. According to Axel Sells genetic book, in combination with recessive opal it will create a whitish color.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Platinum with out spread black is a rusty bar or check and rusty neck. Cocks are lighter in the blue area's. The color was imported from Axel Sell to the U.S. about 15 yrs. ago by Dr Paul Gibson along with another similar color found in homers called Rubella. Both colors produce similar effects as reduced and recessive opal. I suspect the white bird is a Faded Chalky and possibly opal. The color of the parents is most important. I suspect indigo is also involved along with spread black. Faded chalky birds do not have strong flecking and they molt what they do have to white. The pictures are poor as they do not show a side view and are at an angle. Good pics of juvenile plumage is important, because many colors change in the molt. Faded Chalky hens look normal. Platinum birds do not have red flecking in the neck, it is a dull bronze type neck and without spread black the bars and checks are bronze or rusted color. Tail bar is partially faded out. Platinum will change in the molt and supposedly they can be sexed in the nest because of the color in the flights. What is the color of the parents of the two birds and were they single coop bred ? If either of the two birds are platinum the white bird has something else with it and it is a cock bird. If the gray bird is male it will rust up in the neck and lighten up. If its platinum hen it will turn to a frosted charcoal gray type charcoal black. Coming from homers or any different color in any breed, the burden of proof is on the breeder. The fact that one bird is a near self white says there is another genetic mutant in the mix. It will be interesting to see how these birds breed out. Very pretty colors.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

In chickens there are 3 types of steel blue color makers. Two are found in domestic pigeons. one is called milky and is recessive the other is Andalusion blue (Andalusion blue on crow black creates a dark or penciled edge on the feather and is a dominant color. There is a new blue in chickens they have named smokey. It creates a blue gray on black but breeds true and it is a recessive and only a few chicken breeders have it. Andalusion creates a white bird when they are bred together. Some of these colors are sometimes for generic description purposes called lavenders. It thus becomes confusing as to what they realy are as they can look very similar in outward appearances.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

In chickens we have andalusion blue (dominant) and lavender blue (recessive). I've never heard of a third type. What is it?

In pigeons we have indigo (andalusion, when with spread and blue) which is dominant and milky (lavender, when combined with spread and blue) which is recessive. Reduced combined with spread and blue t-check can also give a lavender blue appearance. If platinum is a single gene I don't know about it and would like to hear from someone who knows what effect is has on blue bar.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Reduced is sex linked recessive. I am new on this site. I was sent some pics this morn of eyecrested pomeranian highflyers that are true platinum. Spread (black) platinum will not show pattern like reduced, but the wing shield is a light silver gray like reduced. Try joining genetics 101 on yahoo. Platinum was discussed, as some other homer people are calling some other combinations platinum, but those other look to be spread ash red and dominant opal or recessive opal and barless. Or what is also called cherry and barless. Pictures are deceiving and so are off handed guesses. I will try to see if I can post a picture of a Platinum. I see the person from Romania in another topic on here. I dont have a picture of a female platinum. I find them not that attractive myself. In chickens the new gray color is called smokey. Dr Ron Okimoto has been putting it into Black Astrolops. I believe he dose DNA mapping for the University of Michigan but he lives in Arkansas. The color came out of some white test chickens. There is a picture of them in a chicken genetics book called Genetics of Chicken Colors. By Sigrid Van Dort - David Hancox. I see Sigrid posts on this site.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Steve

I just found this picture on google, is this a platinum hen?

(caption says is is a platinum bar)


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

I hate to guess, but it looks like a homozgous indigo bar. In the barless talk threads- Dina Merangini (last name) emailed in the genetics 101 pic's of spread Platinum. In same talk the Henk66 is author of chicken genetics book. Dina has been in pigeon genetics for some time. 
I am pretty sure Henk66 is Sigrid on the chickens.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

so how would a platinum vary visually?

I had never heard of the colour before this thread, its an interesting discussion


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

I dont know on this new pic. The dark head gunmetal or charcoal head can be a marker for indigo and the extra light color could indicate it is homozygous indigo in bar pattern. The bird could carry barless ( the narrow bar and nearly faded out by the homozygous action of indigo. They say pure indigo creates a white bird, but this is not quite so, as they tend to be a beige white. And it acts defferant without spread black. The plum head. levi book has a pic of pure andalusion and it is a buff white with a charcoal head. Some refer to the dark head as a plum color.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Homozygous indigo expresses red on the neck, therefor I think Lisa's pic is not indigo.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

*Platinum*

 The picture is off the internet and is not her bird. As far as platinum is concerned the picture lacks stating the sex of the bird. Platinum hens are a darker bird. The color expression is dimorphic. I still maintain that the bird is indigo, thats just my opinion. I also think the bird could be one of the faded allels because of the indigo bars being blurred. Its a very poor picture in that the birds neck and head are not in the light to see the color expression. The bird in her borrowed picture is not a match for the birds in my German book. Platinum birds have specific markings in the flights especially the males,called sparrow markings that the hens lack but hens have a differant marking in the flight feather shaft also. 
That bird is the closest of the four pics of homers I have seen on the internet the last few days that comes close to the book. Again the number one marker is when the wing is extended the flights and lower wing feathers on the bottom show sparrow hawk like barred markings in the cock birds in both spread black birds and bar and checker non spread. The hens only show a bleaching near the flight quill shaft. Occasionally cocks can be darker than hens but still have the sparrow hawk markings when the wing is expanded. Tail lacks bar but tail and flight are darker than the body color, neck and bar or checker are a bronzish color. Sometimes muted bar shows in spread birds. They can always be sexed by the sparrow hawk like markings in the exteme ended flight feathers of the cocks.
The bird in the picture has its neck and head to much out of the way of the light of the camera eye. So until I can see the major markers in the flight shaft and confirm the picture is a cock bird, I have to quess the bird is of another genetic near look alike. Since the birds are colored dimorphic, the breeder needs to show an example of a female with the cock. The proof of burden is on the breeder to show they have the color correct in another breed of pigeon. To many modifiers and genetic color combo's out there that can mimic or create a new looking color. And some folks like to sell new ideas. I will try to see if I can get Dina from Romania to post into this topic with pics of the males color in Pomeranian eyecrested highfliers.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Steve said:


> Platinum with out spread black is a rusty bar or check and rusty neck. Cocks are lighter in the blue area's. The color was imported from Axel Sell to the U.S. about 15 yrs. ago by Dr Paul Gibson along with another similar color found in homers called Rubella. Both colors produce similar effects as reduced and recessive opal. I suspect the white bird is a Faded Chalky and possibly opal. The color of the parents is most important. I suspect indigo is also involved along with spread black. Faded chalky birds do not have strong flecking and they molt what they do have to white. The pictures are poor as they do not show a side view and are at an angle. Good pics of juvenile plumage is important, because many colors change in the molt. Faded Chalky hens look normal. Platinum birds do not have red flecking in the neck, it is a dull bronze type neck and without spread black the bars and checks are bronze or rusted color. Tail bar is partially faded out. Platinum will change in the molt and supposedly they can be sexed in the nest because of the color in the flights. What is the color of the parents of the two birds and were they single coop bred ? If either of the two birds are platinum the white bird has something else with it and it is a cock bird. If the gray bird is male it will rust up in the neck and lighten up. If its platinum hen it will turn to a frosted charcoal gray type charcoal black. Coming from homers or any different color in any breed, the burden of proof is on the breeder. The fact that one bird is a near self white says there is another genetic mutant in the mix. It will be interesting to see how these birds breed out. Very pretty colors.


Thanks Steve. I will post up some pics of the parents this evening along with up-close pics of the young. Both parents were platinum. I aggree with you,that pic that the OP posted as "platinum bar" looks to be a double **** indigo.

Thanks


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Hopefully we can get a few pictures of the platinum color as it is in the highfliers. I have not figured out how to get pic's into my posts on this site. Yahoo I can email them into the site and it is posted. Not sure how to do it on this one.
Steve


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Steve said:


> Hopefully we can get a few pictures of the platinum color as it is in the highfliers. I have not figured out how to get pic's into my posts on this site. Yahoo I can email them into the site and it is posted. Not sure how to do it on this one.
> Steve


Is the picture online, anywhere on the internet?

If so just right click on it where ever it is, and select "copy image URL"

Then post a reply here and select the insert image button. Paste the URL of the image and post the reply


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Spread Platinum male


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

2nd Spread Platinum


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Steve,

Platinum Spread cock:http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_9b/CDPDFCXDEFIUTVHNEUZ

Platinum Ash-red Spread cock:http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15e_partea_9b/RXARSQLOAVDPHQYOCEB


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Other than my book I don't have any pictures of bar and checker platinum , but the bar and checks are the rust color seen in the neck. Tail has no tail bar in non black birds. Like indigo or ash red birds in tail. One of these two spread bird you can see a trace of one of the bar but not very much.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

A link to Axel Sell's site with a Spread Platimun hen:http://www.taubensell.de/hauptsonderschau_aschersleben2011.htm


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks everyone. To remember, is the color is on a bar pattern in the spread factor. So a spread on a dark pattern bird would be a darker version. Unfortunate that the pictures do not show the wing pulled out to show the sparrow hawk markings in the flights of the males. Picture of it in the older book I have it is not very up close to see it well. Supposedly his second book on genetics is very good.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Just went and got some upclose pics. Will have them up this evening.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

*Upclose on platinum hen*

Here is a upclose on my young platinum hen.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Here is the nestmate cock.


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## CGull (Mar 26, 2013)

Is this color platinum?


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

The hens in spread black and non spread are not a platinum silver color. The spread black hens are dark charcoal (as in a poor spread) and have a bronzing in the neck, a few light feathers hear and there (but not enough to make the bird look mottled, just enough of them to be noticed. Dimorphic means the hens are a drastic departure from the male. Red Cardinals the male is one way female another, but you cannot get a male cardinal to be the color of the female. Cardinals may be sex linked, I am not sure, but platinum is a recessive and its expression is influenced by the sex of the bird. We would be closer to home if your hen was a male and had some bronze in the neck feathers. Both male and female tend to have the bronze in the neck. IF the two birds are related, and given it is a rare color they probably are related color genetics wise. I think the hen is spread hemizygous Faded Chalky Indigo reduced. You mentioned the white cock had some flecking. He is Homozygous Chalky spread possibly Indigo or could be heteozygous for ash red. There is a chance that you could have recessive opal with the reduced or dominant opal. Recessive opal birds can show horizontal fading and baring in the flights. Similar to what happens in male platinum. But in platinum this barring only happens in males. Recessive opal both sexes. Your white bird has colored eyes, so it is not a recessive white. Colored eyed whites are usually grizzle and recessive red and ash red or indigo or even blue. I am really guessing on what the two are You can test the hen for a Faded gene quite easily by mating her to a Qualmond , Almond or a pure Faded or pure Faded Chalky male. Even Faded Frosty would work. With that mating of any of those males, all of her sons will be pure white looking in the nest if she is a sex linked Faded of either of the 3 Faded types. She is not an almond or qualmond but they are allels of Faded so you can use them, but not all the males will be white if you use almond or qualmond, only half of the males will be white. If you mate the white bird to females of any of those mutations you should get all whitish males and females of some other color. If the white male is carrying reduced or opal or indigo you may be able to sort out what they are. If they are platinum you should not get any gray platinum coloration because it is recessive. Since platinum is rare , if you get a coloration out of the white male that is a soft gray and its a female then reduced is in the package or possibly dominant opal. I can only guess on what they might be, proof always comes from a test in the breeding coup.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

CGull
You will have to let it molt to see if it changes color much. It is a gray platinum like coloration. What color are the parents ? Did it have a nest mate and what color was the other youngster. The bird in your hand looks like it is a spread factor . Did it come out of two black birds ? Some times its good to ask the breeder where the parent stock came from about the color, especially if it not the same color. I think it looks like spread reduced with possibly indigo (andalusion), if both parents were black or dark colored then it would be a female if it is reduced. Do not know what a young platinum looks like, suppose to be a light gray. No pictures of the color as juvenile--only says they change in the molt and females turn darker than males.


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## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

Pouter Guy said:


> Since platinum is the lightest form of blue in the world,sometimes u get a white bird with either red or grey flecks in the neck.


My understanding the lightest form of blue is extreme dilute which is alos referred to as "lemon" color. I have some currently listed on my rare colored racing homer pages of my website linked below.

Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664 or (952)212-8446 cell

http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Steve, why would you not mate her to a blue? All sons would be faded if she is faded. Some offspring would be spread if she is het spread, (all would be spread if she's **** spread). Some would be indigo if she is indigo, (all would be het indigo if she's **** indigo). All would be blue if she's platinum, right?


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Extreme dilutes are various shades of whitish canary yellow. When they hatch they are naked and have albino like eyes til they grow. They are never a silver gray. Of late a few folks on the internet are calling some lite colored homers platinum. Some are just spread barless ash red or spread cherry or barless cherry. Some could even be ash red cherry and barless. Cherry is closely related to recessive opal. True spread platinum in blue bar and ash red are the crested birds posted.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Well everyone,I appreciate the feedback. I know that the parents of these two birds are indeed a pair a platinum racing homers. My uncle bought them from a breeder in california and paid $300 for them. I will post pics on a later date of them moulted out.

Thanks


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Sorry my friend, we can stick a discriptive name on numerous colors or combinations. Nor dose paying a large sum of money for birds tagged as something mean they are the same thing. They are pretty birds. If they are true platinum color from Pommeranian highfliers, then they also have other stuff in them. Because as you can see from the European mans photos the males are not white and females molt to black gray and some bronze in neck. The adult neck feathers in your birds are not showing bronze that have changed are the wrong color. The males always have the markings in the flights. So unfortnately with out the flight markings and the bronze in the neck, they are not the genetic platinum that is in these highfliers. Your uncle must have liked the color to have paid so much money for them. Your uncle should contact the breeder in Calif he bought them from, if he paid that kind of money for them. The breeder could tell him where the line came from. There are some other racers being sold as platinum also, that are very light colored, but they do not have the neck or flights marked correctly either.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

found this site that discusses the gene. It is in german but the google translation is ok

http://www.taubensell.de/mimic22.htm


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Good pictures of the females in the adult color and shows the rust color on the head. I hope to purchase the newer book he has. Tried to copy the page but no go, just was able to get a copy of the pictures.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Steve, would you recomend breeding her to a dilute almond cock like my bird here?


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)




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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

Crap,image dident upload.Here is a link to my album with him in it.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2374&pictureid=26056


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Steve said:


> Sorry my friend, we can stick a discriptive name on numerous colors or combinations. Nor dose paying a large sum of money for birds tagged as something mean they are the same thing. They are pretty birds. If they are true platinum color from Pommeranian highfliers, then they also have other stuff in them. Because as you can see from the European mans photos the males are not white and females molt to black gray and some bronze in neck. The adult neck feathers in your birds are not showing bronze that have changed are the wrong color. The males always have the markings in the flights. So unfortnately with out the flight markings and the bronze in the neck, they are not the genetic platinum that is in these highfliers. Your uncle must have liked the color to have paid so much money for them. Your uncle should contact the breeder in Calif he bought them from, if he paid that kind of money for them. The breeder could tell him where the line came from. There are some other racers being sold as platinum also, that are very light colored, but they do not have the neck or flights marked correctly either.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Steve, I have a hunch that platinum expression is slightly different in homers than in highfliers because of differing modifiers in each breed. Highfliers have more intense color expression than homers in general, which may be causing the bronzing on the highfliers. Also, its difficult to breed good bronze expression into any homers. I would not be so quick to judge if I were you.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Doesnt the first picture in this thread look like an opal As you can see the opal pattern in the wing then as with any breed Even homers a person can outcross to any other BREED LINE for new color. As homers are and have been getting many colors over the years from breed out cross. IT hurts the performance side But as with any breed cultivating takes years. And color is set most often in 5 or less years. Can be done in 3 pretty well. Then onto increased homing abilty But if for loft flying and show type. Work is less for rebuilding Homing Quality. Just a thought


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

tmaas said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry my friend, we can stick a discriptive name on numerous colors or combinations. Nor dose paying a large sum of money for birds tagged as something mean they are the same thing. They are pretty birds. If they are true platinum color from Pommeranian highfliers, then they also have other stuff in them. Because as you can see from the European mans photos the males are not white and females molt to black gray and some bronze in neck. The adult neck feathers in your birds are not showing bronze that have changed are the wrong color. The males always have the markings in the flights. So unfortnately with out the flight markings and the bronze in the neck, they are not the genetic platinum that is in these highfliers. Your uncle must have liked the color to have paid so much money for them. Your uncle should contact the breeder in Calif he bought them from, if he paid that kind of money for them. The breeder could tell him where the line came from. There are some other racers being sold as platinum also, that are very light colored, but they do not have the neck or flights marked correctly either.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

I beg to differ. You need to re read Axel Sells pages more closely. He crossed it into homers to test it with recessive opal because it acts like recessive opal. He had to prove they were not the same thing. I have color bred racing homers for over 40 yrs now, and have many friends in homers, not just racing, but well educated in the science of color genetics. I am not judging but just speaking the truth. Any one who is honest and sells birds for that kind of money should be more than happy to back up why they gave the birds the color name. The other man selling homers as platinum was up front on the birds genetic back ground. As for it acting differant in homers on the flight markings in the males and the bronze in the neck and head. I believe Axel Sell addresses that in one of the translated links. A gentics friend just sent me Sells web site , and contact email. I have contacted him before by letter and internet but many yrs ago. If you and other breeders want to call their color platinum they can. It dosen't mean it is the same gene as the one that has been studied. I know you would like to think that because your uncle spent alot of money for the birds sold as a platinum color that they are the same as the high flier platinum. Frankly I wouldn't worry about it, there are people out there that will buy pretty colored birds. I can tell you there are plenty of bronze type colors in racing homers. Trenton and Fabry lines of racing homers have been reported to carry certain types of bronze factors. So you are misinformed on color genes in racing homers.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

I do agree with the post of re lee. That they are opal factored and andalusion. The white bird is pure andalusion and dominant opal. The hen is an dark heterozygous andalusion and opal. Joe Quinn reported on the beautiful oyster white color from pure andalusion and opal. Chalky is a white bird that some smut like fading and it moults to white, but impure Chalky look like a blue bar or check. Then boom suddenly there is a white baby But they could carry one of the faded genes called Frosty or Chalky. But only true genetic testing can tell what genetic mutants are in them. If they are platinum they are platinum with other color genes like opal. Racing homers carry alot of undeveloped genetic factors, but because they mate and breed them for performance the colors and modifiers go by undeveloped, race and performance is what counts. Numerous flying breeds were crossed to develope them, so they can carry alot of stuff. But yes some have crossed in developed colors from other flying and show pigeons. I had diploma and 1st place almond racing homers back in late 80's. Recessive opal was a color that had never been found in any other breed except racing homers. Now it is in Fantails ,Rollers and I think one other breed people moved it from homers into other breeds. To develop the racing homer they used cumlets, tipplers, draggons, english carriers, antwerps, all these alone carry differant color genes and modifiers. Trenton racing homers are natorious for carring many different recessive genes, including peak crest and shell crest. Fabry and Jan Arden familys of racing homers have been reported to throw crested babies.


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