# Feather plucking AGAIN



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I've brought this up before but it's been a couple of years, but I just discovered today another hen plucking and eating her babies feathers. We've got a few new members, some of which have had birds for years, so I thought I'd pick their brains for answers. 
A short history...........back in 2004, I heard a couple of my babies crying but it wasn't the normal "I want food" cry so I went to investigate. Caught the mother of the babies plucking out their feathers and actually eating them. These babies were about 11 or 12 days old. First thing I think is protein. However, she was getting the same feed, water, vitamins, etc.......as all the other mothers. I was using a 17% protein feed from Browns. I wound up taking her out and letting the Dad finish raising the babies. I let her lay another set of eggs, gave her dummies and let her sit on those for 19 days. Then I let her lay again and hatch the babies. Same thing happened. I finally gave her to someone who would foster her eggs. In hindsight, that was probably the most stupid thing I've done but doesn't matter now.
A couple of years go by, and in 2005 I moved my IF champion hen to the breeding loft. First round of babies.......you got it, she starting plucking feathers and eating them. These two hens were not related in any way. I took her babies and fostered them. Put her back on the race team for a year and realized that by not racing her for a year and breeding from her, she had lost her enthusiasm, plus her mate was no longer here. This year I decided to try breeding out of her again and was ready to foster the babies if I needed to. I never saw her pluck her babies feathers at all.
Now, today, I'm in the loft watching the mother of the baby I posted pics of a few days ago, and I'll be damned if I don't see her start plucking feathers and eating them. I couldn't believe it. If she continues, which I'm almost positive she will, I'll pull her out and let the Dad finish raising the baby.
So, do any of you new guys have any idea what is going on or what I can do? 
Since the first time this happened, I have yet to find a fancier who's ever seen it happen. Some don't believe me. 
Wendell Levi touches on it briefly in his book "The Pigeon" and says that once they start this behavior, they don't usually stop. That's one reason I gave away the first hen, but now this year, a hen that did this before, DIDN'T do it this year. Of course, she only raised one round so if I had let her raise another, who knows? 
There's been quite a bit of discussion about protein in the diet in the past few days. So, how much is enough and how much is too much and why is enough for 10 birds, not enough for just one bird?
I'm confused and there MUST be an answer. I just haven't found out what it is yet.


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## Tilly (Feb 16, 2008)

Renee, I don't know why but my chickens pick up feathers that are on the ground and eat them. It seems to happen mostly in the spring and summer. Thankfully, there are no baby chicks to pluck them from.  
I've always wondered why too.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Just in case any one is interested in reading the previous thread from a few years ago, here it is. I just read it again. The last post may have an answer there or a partial answer that I either didn't see or didn't pick up on back then. These birds ARE in the back breeding pens and although they can get outside into their own aviary, there is very little if any actual sunshine back there. This pair of birds, has been back there since Jan of this year. That's 3 1/2 months. However, the first bird that I had doing this back in 2005 did it on her first round so she had not been in the back pens but about 2 or 3 weeks and Skydancer, the IF Champion hen was actually in the hens loft raising her babies this year, so she had full access to sunshine all the time. Hum.........just don't know.  

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8948


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great topic .. let's discuss it .. I'm too whammied with incoming tonight to do it.

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Renee, 

I'm totally just throwing some possibilities in here that probably have no basis on fact, but could it be that these hens are neurotic in some way? Maybe it's a form of stress that is causing them to do this or perhaps it's a nervous "tick"? Humans can get OCD or tourette's syndrome so maybe pigeons can get something similar where that they can't help but do something and it's showing itself in this way? 

Sure is a weird one and there doesn't seem to be any clues to point out what could be the cause of this.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It could be a combination of things, like stress and hormones and maybe even a little lack of sunlight. I know some birds pluck out of stress, but they pluck themselves and don't necessarily eat them. Eating feathers may signify a hormone imbalance or maybe the sunlight issue. If she has babies, maybe she is a stressed and just not eating well.

I would give her a drop of cod liver oil once a month and a variety of greens. I would give her a little piece of alfalfa tablet too.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

My thought too was perhaps a Vitamin D deficiency from lack of sunlight. But feather plucking seems to be almost addictive for birds, as it seems difficult to stop once they start the behavior. I haven't had any of my pigeons do this, but did experience it with our doves. 

We have three pairs of rescued ringneck doves, all in separate hutch type cages on our patio. It's not my intention to raise doves, but we have missed eggs here and there. One pair, Peaches and Petra, raised a set of chicks with no problems and I found a good home for the babies. Last September I missed another set and I never have the heart to toss the eggs once they start to develop, so I let them hatch. This time Peaches and Petra were terrible parents. They tossed one baby out of the nest at the age of one day and it died. I've no idea why they did this. I'm certain the chick was healthy--it looked fine the day it hatched and had a full crop.  

The second egg hatched the next day and all went well until the chick's feathers started coming in. It was a pure white like its grandmother--the only pure white we've raised. Dad is pied and mom's kind of a peach color. Mom started plucking out the chick's head feathers as they came in. I don't know if it was the white color or what, but she wouldn't leave it alone. I put some anti-picking solution on the baby's head, but mom started plucking the shoulders and body instead. As soon as the baby started eating on her own I had to take her away from her parents. I felt sorry for her being alone outside in the cold, it being fall, so I brought her in the house. She is now "mated" to my husband and a complete house dove.

I didn't see Petra was eat the feathers she plucked, but I don't remember seeing a lot of pinfeathers on the floor of the cage, so she might have actually _been _eating them. I'm wondering if vitamin D was factor for her, too. Later in the year they don't get as much sun. There is a little that comes into the cages in the morning, but probably not as many hours as would be optimal. I don't know what caused Petra's bizarre behavior, but I'm definitely not letting her raise any more babies. 

So Renee, I don't know that this helps at all, but at least you're not alone in the problem.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Sounds like a lack of protein*

Feathers are loaded with protein and pinfeathers are digestable.

What is being fed to the breeders?

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Renee, I had not seen the start of this thread*



Lovebirds said:


> I've brought this up before but it's been a couple of years, but I just discovered today another hen plucking and eating her babies feathers. We've got a few new members, some of which have had birds for years, so I thought I'd pick their brains for answers.
> A short history...........back in 2004, I heard a couple of my babies crying but it wasn't the normal "I want food" cry so I went to investigate. Caught the mother of the babies plucking out their feathers and actually eating them. These babies were about 11 or 12 days old. First thing I think is protein. However, she was getting the same feed, water, vitamins, etc.......as all the other mothers. I was using a 17% protein feed from Browns. I wound up taking her out and letting the Dad finish raising the babies. I let her lay another set of eggs, gave her dummies and let her sit on those for 19 days. Then I let her lay again and hatch the babies. Same thing happened. I finally gave her to someone who would foster her eggs. In hindsight, that was probably the most stupid thing I've done but doesn't matter now.
> A couple of years go by, and in 2005 I moved my IF champion hen to the breeding loft. First round of babies.......you got it, she starting plucking feathers and eating them. These two hens were not related in any way. I took her babies and fostered them. Put her back on the race team for a year and realized that by not racing her for a year and breeding from her, she had lost her enthusiasm, plus her mate was no longer here. This year I decided to try breeding out of her again and was ready to foster the babies if I needed to. I never saw her pluck her babies feathers at all.
> Now, today, I'm in the loft watching the mother of the baby I posted pics of a few days ago, and I'll be damned if I don't see her start plucking feathers and eating them. I couldn't believe it. If she continues, which I'm almost positive she will, I'll pull her out and let the Dad finish raising the baby.
> ...


You would think 17% protein would be enough but Old Elm racing feed is 18% and I think Baymoor (Kaytee) is 19%. I'm not sure if 1 or 2 percent difference would be enough to cause this but maybe so.

Old feed will lose it's nutritional value as well. I am not familiar with Brown's feed as I've never seen it in my area. If it were me, I'd look for another feed to try.

Bill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

jbangelfish said:


> You would think 17% protein would be enough but Old Elm racing feed is 18% and I think Baymoor (Kaytee) is 19%. I'm not sure if 1 or 2 percent difference would be enough to cause this but maybe so.
> 
> Old feed will lose it's nutritional value as well. I am not familiar with Brown's feed as I've never seen it in my area. *If it were me, I'd look for another feed to try.*
> Bill


Well, that ain't happenin'..........we're lucky we can get ANY pigeon feed.  The hen that I was referring too has now laid eggs, (thank God) so she doesn't have much time to pester her baby, so things are fine now I guess. There won't be any more babies this year. What could I add to the feed the up the protein? I already add extra safflower seeds.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It's hard to get here too*

My local store closed for a brief period and I had to go about 20 miles to where I used to buy feed, years ago. They had actually stopped selling pigeon feed and only got it back for me. They said that the local racing club had been selling their old brand of Old Elm and they could not compete with their prices.

My local feed store reopened and dropped Old Elm, which I fed for over 40 years. They now carry Kaytee which is OK but I always have leftover wheat or oat groats.

Anyway, the peas are the high protein portion of the feed at somewhere around 30% to 40%. There are Canadian Field Peas, Maple Peas and Austrian Peas in the feed that I use. Whether Canadian Field Peas are the same as soybeans, I'm not sure but they look like soybeans. The other peas are mottled brown in appearance and I have no idea where you'd find them. Anyway, soybeans are about 33% protein and you might be able to find them to see if your birds would eat them.

I don't know the protein level of Safflower (sp?) or flax but these I think are oily and fatty. They are often in feed in small quantities. Corn is around 16% protein but is also fatty and is best fed in cold weather. You need more protein anyway.

I will try one of the Canadian Peas and see if it tastes like a soybean. I hate soybeans but I know what they taste like and smell like. How's that for research? I'll let you know what I find.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Research complete. Yecchhh*

I tried all the peas and found them all to taste pretty much like soybeans.

The so-called Canadian Field Peas look and taste exactly like soybeans so my conclusion is that they are in fact soybeans. You should be able to find those somewhere, I would think. I did feed them to my pigeons years ago when I mixed my own feed. I had so many pigeons (400 or 500 or so) that it was much cheaper for me to do this. I used Milo, Whole Corn, Soybeans and Wheat and the birds did fine with it.

The other peas in this mix (Kaytee) are Maple Peas and Austrian Peas. I don't know which is which but one is smaller than a soybean and green pea colored and the other is dark brown and mottled in appearance and about the size of a soybean or a little larger. They also taste pretty much like soybeans but not as strong.

A friend of mine who raises pigeons in Arizona used to feed dried green peas, just like the ones that we eat only dried. They are not in any pigeon feed that I have ever bought as they are easy to recognize, familiar green color, larger than soybeans and a wrinkly appearance. I did try mixing them into my home made feed mix and my birds didn't seem to care for them. I have no idea if their protein level is up with these other so-called peas or not. I don't remember if he fed only the peas or if he mixed other grains as well. It was 25 years ago or so when I used to trade pigeons back and forth with him. I did see his name listed with an Arizona club so he apparently still has birds.

I hope this info helps you in some way. Good luck.

Bill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Guess I'll have to try to find the soybeans. We have used Browns feed since we moved here in 2001. For 6 years, we drove about 140 miles round trip to pick up our feed. The fellow was a member of our combine and sold it to everyone. We paid $15 to $19. Now, he's old and in failing health and had to get rid of all his pigeons. He tried to keep the feed going, but just couldn't handle it. So now, we convinced our local feed store to start ordering Browns feed for us. That's what everyone around here carries, but until our local feed store started ordering, we were still looking at driving 100 miles round trip to the nearest store. We now pay $21 to $26 but are only driving about 6 miles. 
So, that's what we have and that's as good as it's going to get. Thanks for your input. 
I've always believed that it was a protein issue, but could figure out why 19 of my 20 hens were doing good on the feed. This is the third hen, different strains/families, whatever.............just sort of weird how it's only affected 3 hens in 7 years and it's something that not many people have ever seen happen. Guess I'm the lucky one!!


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*She may have a behavior problem*

It could be something that just isn't quite right about this one bird. Every now and then, pigeons will gang up on a young bird or weak bird and scalp it severely. I don't know why they do this but it does happen from time to time.

Maybe she is not fond of the peas in the feed and has grown accustomed to getting her protein another way, by eating her babies feathers. It's a bad habit to say the least.

Try to get her to eat more soybeans or peas and if the behavior persists, I would stop breeding her. She could well pass this bad habit on to her young, especially if there is something going on besides pure nutritional needs.

Bill


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

One other thought on nutrition: I know quite a few long-time breeders who supplement their pigeons with broiler pellets for chickens during the breeding season because the pellets are high protein. Does your local feed store carry chicken feed? That might help if your hen is really craving extra protein.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

At this point, I don't think there's really anything I can do to see if it changes her behaviour. This is the last baby of the season and then she'll go back to all her hen buddies.  The baby is 16 days old today and she's on eggs (dummy) again, and I really haven't noticed her spending much time with the baby while not sitting today. 
I'll just have to remember this next year and see how it goes. She may be going back to her real owner up in Michigan anyway. 
Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

Birdmom4ever said:


> One other thought on nutrition: I know quite a few long-time breeders who supplement their pigeons with broiler pellets for chickens during the breeding season because the pellets are high protein. Does your local feed store carry chicken feed? That might help if your hen is really craving extra protein.


This is true. You can buy chicken feed with higher protein. I don't remember what lay mash has for protein but it is higher. Getting pigeons to eat it may be another thing but they have a way of finding what they need. The main ingrediant to raise protein is usually soybeans and is used by farmers all over the world to get a higher protein into their animals for milk production or whatever the case may be.

Bill


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