# Possible Broken Tail And Weak Legs? - Diamond Dove



## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

This is regarding the same diamond dove I have been posting about in "Questions Regarding Homeopathic Remedies for Paramyxovirus." As if he doesn't have enough to deal with already, I've been meaning to ask about some other problems he's been having with weak legs and what I'm worried could be a broken tail. Both of these issues popped up around the same time but I'm not sure if it was the exact same time.

Please see the pictures I have attached and notice how far his tail is bent out of position. It moves around very loosely and I haven't seen him move it on his own anymore. I think whatever is wrong may also be causing him discomfort when he has to poop--he'll sometimes fall backwards onto his tail or I've also seen him push his tail up against the bars of the cage in such a way that he ends up pooping outside the cage (the second pink towel on the side contains a dirty spot due to this).

As far as his legs go I'm not sure if the weakness is just another pmv symptom, a calcium deficiency or something else. I also realized though that having a bent tail must be making his balance much worse than it already was and maybe that's why he prefers to lay down and his legs are appearing to be weak.

Does anyone have any experience with these symptoms or advice about what I could try to do ?

P.S. Forgot to try and fix up his feathers before I took the pictures, he has trouble preening himself too


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

ahhh I had a pigeon with a broken tail.. 
took about two months to heal, he was in the same position for two months.
elevated, and restrained in that same position till it healed..
surprisingly he fly again...


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

So your saying that you are JUST addressing this broken tail thing now? Is this broken tail a NEW thing? I have seen your posting title re: holistic methods which I thought was a good idea since not much you can do for that virus anyway but this bird looks SICK, is it a recent pic? Also you should have mentioned the tail FIRST. If broken these bones set quickly in the malformed position if not dealt with. 

If this bird was mine, I would reposition the tail to normal and put some splilnts on sides of body and wrap it above the vent and or make towels that are rolled up and put beside on each side to minimize movement from side to side and or put him in a small 2.5 gallon narrow fish tank that you can get at petsmart. Put towels on the bottom and make an indentation for him and place him in there so he has support all around and has his tail straight. MORE importantly IF this is a recent pic, I would start him on a general antibiotic. With pmv if you think he has it, I dont see them fluffed up like this. U have something else going on by the looks of this pic, AND keep this bird warm. I will not go source out your other thread to see what it says and if any pics there. If I m wrong, disregard this posting.

EDIT: Ok went and read your entire post. Saw a whole lot of talk about spirulina and not much about over all health of the bird. By the pics you posted this bird is sick cold and fluffed. It for sure is not feeling well. I say go to vets get a diagnosis and start conventional meds. Do the basic first aid right now such as keep the bird WARM, he is not warm enough if he is fluffed so find a warm room in the house and or put his cage near a heater or lamp. Give warm fluids. and YES feed this bird, he is not eating enough. Deal with the tail as I stated above, the tiny fish tank works wonders keeping them in one position with towels surrounding him, use toilet paper or paper towel to line the towels on top for easy cleaning. Good luck, I hope the little guy makes it, pretty cute.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*If this is PMV please the following link for more information and advice: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f107/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12250.html

A bird under stress will require additional nutrients with any health issue, and calcium/D3 is absolutely necessary for a bird with neurological issues, also B complex vitamins. I would also give supplement probiotics to help the bird better digest nutrients. 
*


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Thank you skyking.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

I have to start by saying thank you all so much for your quick responses!! I read everything first thing when I woke up and immediately wanted to make something for him and try handfeeding so I didn't get a chance to reply right away. 

Goga I went and found your old post and I'm so happy to hear the pigeon you found was able to recover! I've saved the picture of the restraint you made for reference just in case I have to do the same thing if it's not already too late.

CBL you are right and I feel horrible that I didn't address his tail sooner. It always bent to the side a bit because of his spinning in circles but I didn't notice how far it started moving and how loose it was until the middle of this week. Maybe all the pressure he had been putting on it over time eventually became too much or maybe one time he fell backwards and landed too hard... I'm trying to look through pics/vids I have of him to pinpoint when the break may have happened and it looks like it was after January 19th so it's been around a month.. Thank you so much for your time and advice I will post pictures of what I made for him so far. I had a small box that looked like it could work and thought I could try cutting a small opening in the box for his tail and vent to fit through. It took a little bit to get him into position but he got comfortable and hopefully this will prevent him from backing up onto his tail when he twists his neck and also stop feces getting stuck to his underside. Perhaps there's another way I could support the tail while it hangs there too.
I've been doing my best to keep him warm using a 60w Avi-Temp bulb which you can see on top of his cage. Yeah I hate to see him fluffed up again like this so soon.. it was only late last December and early January that I was taking him back and forth to the vet because the culture that was done showed heavy Klebsiella and Enterobacter infections. The vet prescribed Gentamicin and the 2nd culture showed it was successful but maybe somehow he's been infected again . When you say general antibiotic do you mean something like Baytril? Would I be able to try it without a vet's prescription?
I didn't have very good luck giving him the formula today but I will keep trying.

Skyeking I forgot to mention I ordered some garlic oil and brewer's yeast for B complex vitamins after reading you and jondove's posts in my other thread. They finally arrived in the mail today so I can start putting some on his seeds. I have provided Kaytee Hi-Cal grit for calcium but he never seemed to get much of it and hasn't been interested in it at all lately. Perhaps putting some ground up cuttlebone onto his seeds would work? I'm waiting for http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=8&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5 to arrive soon to hopefully help with D3 synthesis. Going to start putting probiotics in the water asap as well.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

_Update_

I scrapped the idea trying to keep his tail outside the box and have just been using towels/blankets alone since it ended up being too uncomfortable for him after awhile. I also tried using a finger splint with the V at the base of the tail and the sides against his wings but he would always escape after multiple attempts to secure it to him with bandage wrap. Trying to find the right materials to make a secure sling like goga's was going to be my next step but I figured I would wait since I was going to take him to the vet and thought maybe they would have something there.

I'm so frustrated and stressed that I can't really afford anymore vet bills right now but I set up an appointment and made the long drive down to the Medical Center for Birds in Oakley yesterday anyway. They had a lot of good reviews and were also listed on Palomacy's website, but I'm not quite sure what to think about everything the vet (and another person who was in training) told me.

To start, *they actually don't believe the tail is broken* based on how it looks and how the bone feels. They think he's purposely using it as a prop to help balance himself or he's lost complete control of it due to his neurological issues. In my above post I mentioned the difficulty and discomfort he appears to have when pooping (recently I've actually seen him release two poops at once sometimes) and if a loss of control is the problem I can't help but wonder if he's been having a hard time controlling the muscles down there as well.

Moving on to his lethargy and fluffiness, the vet doesn't believe it's due to any bacterial infection and that antibiotics wouldn't help (didn't do a culture or blood test to confirm this). When I brought up Baytril at one point he said they normally don't use Baytril for a number of reasons. I was also hoping to get some probiotics instead of waiting for some in the mail but he said they don't prescribe those either because they haven't been scientifically proven to have any benefit. I mentioned how I had recently bought some brewer's yeast and garlic oil and he said a lot of stuff like that is more likely to be a waste of money than not, but that I could still use it if I wanted.. talk about conflicting information 

In the end I think the option he recommended the most was leaving my dove there for an unknown amount of days so they could see how he responds to extra hydration and medication. The price for that was pretty up there though so I just paid for them to give him an injection of fluids before taking him home with some Meloxicam, some samples of two different small pellets and a sample of hand-feeding formula. The lady who did the fluid injection showed me how I could give him his medication (and possibly formula too) by just putting a drop at a time on the side of his beak and letting him open and swallow himself. According to the vet, Meloxicam should reduce any inflammation he may have in his brain or tail and hopefully make him feel well enough to eat better. The idea of putting electrolytes in the water for extra hydration was shot down because he may not like the taste, but does that apply to flavor-less solutions? 

I purchased a scale to keep track of his weight and this morning it showed 32g which is the same as it was at the vet yesterday.

If he doesn't get better soon the vet said I might want to consider euthanasia if it wasn't already what I had went there to do... I still feel like I haven't done everything I can for him yet though. 

By searching all of California instead of just my zip code on the AAV website I found another avian vet nearby and made an appointment for tomorrow evening to take him to her for a second opinion on his tail and what else might be able to be done to help his neurological issues besides what I've already been doing. 

*Does anyone here have any experience with having blood tests done on small doves? I've never done one before because the first vet I ever took him to said he could die from the stress of it .*


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok that vet is an moron, I hope its ok to say if not I just did, can be deleted. Here is what you HAVE to do. Do NOT let them TELL you shyte, it is YOUR bird YOUR desire you TELL the what you WANT, for them to say no electrolytes for flavour is BEYOND assenine. Who gives a crap if the bird doesnt like it. AND I have never had a bird refuse it. So go right ahead and please GIVE the electrolytes.

The medicam is great for the pain and inflammation. I would INSIST on antibiotics it is YOUR money and YOUR choice NOT the vets choice so when u go to next vet INSIST on it. Get amoxicillian if they have a beef with baytril. Forget the blood work, heres why, they take it from the JUGULAR and yes they CAN kill the bird if they are incompetent. Even if an avian vet, so I would pass on that, just a money grab. IN a nutshell.

Warmth
Fluids
Food
Medication and pain meds
Rest 
Recovery.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Hey CBL thanks for following up with this. I did find myself wishing one of the other vets could have taken a look at him too while I was there... I checked yelp again and the vet I saw hasn't been mentioned in any reviews yet. Hopefully he doesn't take offense if he reads this but even though I could tell he was concerned he just didn't seem to have that friendly and compassionate personality I was hoping for. And yeah I was a bit thrown off by the fact he was so skeptical about all of the research I had done online and the advice I've received on here. I'm sure he has his reasons for thinking the way he does but I'm willing to try different things even if they might be a waste in the end. I did still purchase and have been giving electrolytes mixed with the water despite what he said. His reasoning was that if a bird doesn't like the taste of the water it will end up drinking less in the end and become more dehydrated. In that case I would think you'd just want to monitor the bird and see how it reacts. I'm glad he recommended starting Medicam at least since the last vet didn't. The dose is 0.02 ml twice a day but I'm not quite sure how quickly I should be noticing any improvement. So far he's been about the same although he has gained a couple grams. I think he's warm enough (not really fluffed anymore) since I moved him closer to the lamp but he's still pretty tired. 

Regarding the vet I went to for a second opinion on Wednesday evening, she was an older woman and wasn't as quick to rule out a possible bacterial infection. This was before your post but don't worry I didn't end up doing a blood test especially because she didn't think it was necessary seeing how much he was attempting to eat. As far as his tail goes she said if it was broken it would be completely limp and he wouldn't be able to hold it up at all but he still can. I originally thought it could've been broken because of how far it was bending and how loose it felt but I guess his balance getting worse was the real issue all along. As far as a a good broad spectrum antibiotic to try she recommended doxycycline so I've been giving him that now, 0.08 ml once a day for 14 days. She gave me Bene-Bac Plus for probiotics but said to only give a tiny amount 2-3 times a week rather than every day. I hope he won't get too stressed or hate me too much for making him take all this stuff,  he definitely doesn't enjoy it. The vet also took a fecal sample but I'm still waiting to hear back on that.

So at this point I can conclude his tail is alright but his legs (w/toe curling) and other neurological problems (torticollis, coordination & balance) haven't gotten better. There doesn't seem to be much else to try other than what's already been advised but I will continue to do research on here and elsewhere and just keep hoping there will be some improvement after more time passes.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

When a dove that I've rescued from my cat, developed PMV, I also thought the tailbone was broken. Looked the same as yours for a while, but then recovered eventually.

Do you have him directly under the heatlamp with light from above? I made that mistake with the dove during the first couple of days and she was always thrashing about and ended up lying on her back. Then I put her on a heatpad and could not believe the difference it made. 

Do you ever put this bird outside in the sun? My dove spent a lot of time outside in his cage (which she loved) and eventually made a full recovery, although still can't fly properly. This is a bird that at he time could not even sit normally, could not walk either.

So maybe a few simple changes can make a difference.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Good work, everything now seems to be online and done right for the best of the bird, you can do no more, but wait on fecal samples. Adjust meds accordingly on what their findings are and wait it out. Im glad u opted for the electrolytes. I have yet to this day seen a bird refuse to drink because of it. AND even if they didnt like the taste, less of all them minerals and vits in one sip is better than two without.  The reason I didnt care bout him saying dont give, is that you can force feed a bird with syringe both food and water if you dont think he is getting enought, thats why his statement makes no sense to me.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Very sorry you had a bad experience at medical center for birds in Oakley as that is where we take Phoebe. We drive 5 hours there because Dr. Speer is the greatest. I don't know the others very well although Dr. Olsen seems ok. We always insist that Phoebe see Dr. Speer. Glad you got a second opinion and are not just euthanizing the poor bird. Pigeons can recover from really serious seemingly hopeless problems and show few after effects.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Hi Marina thank you for chipping in with your experience! I'm sorry the dove you found had to go through similar problems but it's comforting to hear that she was able to get better, funny we worried about the same thing too . I originally had the heat lamp centered above his box but then moved it over slightly so there would be a cool spot if he wanted. The light source is also from above but to the side a bit. He doesn't seem to be bothered as much as yours was but I came across http://www.amazon.com/Snuggle-Safe-...8&qid=1426149463&sr=8-1&keywords=snuggle+safe and starting thinking that having warmth from underneath could possibly do some good for his legs. I didn't realize there were long lasting microwaveable heating pads until I looked into it again so thanks for that idea! At the very least it would be a portable heat source that I could use to make sure he stays warm outside. I've been using one of those Avian Sun UVA/UVB bulbs to simulate sunlight but I'm going to see if I can expose him to some natural sun again too. Unfortunately it only shines on this apartment early in the morning when he's still trying to sleep so I'll probably have to take him to the park around the corner when I can. By the way I saw your other post and I'm so sorry the pigeon you were trying to help wasn't getting better  I'm glad you tried so hard to do what you could though. 
Thanks CBL I think the last thing I'm trying to figure out is how I can help him be more comfortable and sleep better. I've been wondering if they make neck braces for birds with torticollis or if he would struggle too much against it and wear himself out or end up slipping out of one anyway since he's so small.
I called just now regarding the fecal sample because she didn't make it sound like it was going to take that long to get results but I have to wait for a call back. And yeah I thought the same thing that taking in less of an electrolyte solution could still be better than a little more plain water. One thing the vet didn't mention/I forgot to ask was why he suspected dehydration in the first place.
Hey cwebster don't worry I'd say my overall experience was okay but I think you're right that I should have requested to see Dr. Speer. Based on what you and others have said he seems to be the best of the best out of everyone there and probably has the most experience with pigeons and doves especially seeing as he's the founder of the place. I think I was just so worried about my dove's tail and whatever pain he could be in that I just went with their soonest available appointment. One of the receptionists called me this past Monday for another follow-up and I decided to ask how much they would charge to do a culture (in case it might be cheaper than the other place if the Doxycycline doesn't work) and see if I could get the vet's opinion on a neck brace (even though I will try to see Dr. Speer if I go back again). She asked me what kind of culture but I told her I thought they always just did a swab of their throat and of the other end and went from there. She said she would have to talk to the vet and called me back an hour later just to tell me he would call me the next day. 3 days later I still haven't heard anything so I think I will take the advice you sent me in your PM and try e-mailing Dr. Speer to see what he says.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The heating pad that I've got is one that's used for reptiles, could not get one for birds. I'm sure you'll be able to get one over there. Get's quite hot, just put layers of fabric on top.

Is there no window you can open to let the sunlight in and place him in front of that? It would be nice for him to wake up that way.


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