# Moral Dilemma



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

Personally I don’t think birds should be in a cage, no matter how big the cage is it’s never going to be the size of the sky.
The only reason I agreed to take the Pigeons was because I was told that fact about them being able to free fly.
Well I have tried to let them out on two different occasions and both times I have been so sad and disappointed to find I lost one or in this case I lost two.
One being the father to be.
One of two that were my first Pigeons. (Heckle and Jackal)
So here is where the dilemma comes into place.
I don’t feel I can try to let them free fly again without being so scared and to be so hurt yet another time.
I also don’t feel like I should go against my morals by keeping them in the Pigeon house, even if it is 12 feet long by 61/2 feet wide and 7 feet high.
They are still in a cage more or less.
So what do I do?
Here is the real kicker,
I also don’t believe in disposable pets.
Once I have a pet I am in it for the long hall. No turning back.
Granted I would be giving them to someone who has hundreds and wouldn’t have named any of them, and they would be able to free fly along with many others.
But by doing this I’m going against what I believe in and by not I would be going against what I believe in.
I love them, I have done a lot of work in order to keep them in what I feel is a good home environment.
I would hate to know I did all this for nothing.
But I also feel so bad for the female of one of the lost males.
I am in a no win situation.
And I don't know what I should do.
I have to live with what I do.
And I'm totally lost.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dear Firstimer,

I am very sorry for the loss of your birds. It is simply nature's way .. you let them free fly, and they get picked off by a predator. It's a fact of life and of death. While I fully realize that this is a risk that racing fanciers take every time they let their birds free fly or race, I think it is an insane risk to take for "pet" birds. I am not saying anything at all to the detriment of people who race their birds but =am= saying that those of us who consider our birds to be pets, that we need to keep them safe. Your "cage" is an ample size for a good number of birds. The simple answer is .. if you don't want to lose them, then don't let them free fly. Try to find room, time, money to build a big enough enclosed and protected space where they can "fly" if that solves your moral dilemma.

I don't breed, race, or show pigeons, but I do rescue and rehab them. I have dozens that are my personal pets. They do not free fly, and I don't think they are at all unhappy. I have also many times rehabbed a feral and released it only to have it circle the yard a couple of times and come back to hang onto the side of the aviary or actually go to the gate and be frantic to get back in. I truly don't think such birds want to be "free", and they don't really give a whit about free flying. This is all just my personal opinion and many will disagree. Still, if the birds are =my= pets, they are =not= going out there in harms way. Yes, there are other ferals that are released that take one quick look and are off like a shot to wherever they choose to go.

You are right in a way .. it's a dilemma, but one that I don't have a great deal of difficulty in dealing with.

Terry


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I FELT THE SAME WAY WITH KIPPY. I WOULD LET KIPPY GO OUT AND FLY AROUND. ONE TIME KIPPY WAS GONE FOR THREE DAYS. WHEN KIPPY CAME BACK KIPPY WAS PRETTY WIPED OUT. I HAVE HAD KIPPY SINCE @ 2 WEEKS OLD. THOSE 3 DAYS I WENT CRAZY. AFTER THAT I WEIGHED THE PROS AND CONS OF LETTING KIPPY GO. NOW KIPPY HAS A BIGGER CAGE AND A FRIEND, SPLASH. 
EVERY SO OFTEN I FIND A SICK OR DEAD PIGEON AROUND AND I DON'T WANT KIPPY OR SPLASH TO BE ONE OF THEM. THERE'S CATS, CARS, WINDOWS, PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE PIGEONS AND MAY HURT THEM, THINGS THEY CAN PICK UP FROM OTHER BIRDS AND WHATEVER ELSE THAT GOES ON OUT THERE.
EITHER WAY SEEMS LIKE A NO WIN DECISION. KIPPY AND SPLASH ARE SAFE IN THEIR PIGEON PAD AND THEY SEEM TO LIKE IT. THEIR SO OCCUPIED WITH EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW I DON'T THINK THEY REALY CARE ABOUT FLYING RIGHT NOW. LOL!
THERE'S PRO AND CONS LETTING THEM FLY FREE.
IT'S A TOUGH DECISION TO MAKE. I'M SURE WHATEVER DECISION YOU MAKE WILL BE THE RIGHT ONE.


----------



## CirrusNine (Feb 7, 2004)

I can totally understand how you are feeling. I rescued a pigeon with a damaged wing and I have been letting her out for a few hours every weekend. She usually enjoys the sun, pecks at gravel and watches me do yardwork. It has been 6 months since I got her and her wing is getting better, however not 100%. She can fly short distances (50 ft maybe). About a month ago she was on the roof and then dissapeared for a few days only to return missing a significant portion of her rear feathers. Obviously attacked by some animal. I kept her in her cage for a long time out of fears that she would be attacked again. 
I began to feel bad for keeping her caged up so a few days ago I let her out again and she took off and hasn't been back, its driving me nuts! Your post has helped me with future decisions about letting her fly off. I love her as a pet and want to protect her from danger. Hopefully she will return.

-Lance


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

Thank you all for your replies.
Lance, I share your feelings, I'm going on my third day in a few hours.
It's amazing how many different thoughts run through one's head at times like these







I guess all we can do is hope and pray for a safe and speedy return.
I suppose all I can do is try to create a environment for them that makes me feel less guilty about them not being able to fly like the birds I see them watching. And not let them make any more babies. That leaves me with 7 Pigeons. 
One of many things that really concern me, is the female to one of the MIA males, is sitting on eggs She has been for 8 or 9 days now.Will she continue to try to raise her babies? will another female step up? Do I need to do something? and if so, what, how, and when?
Sorry so many questions, but I don't have anyone to ask for help.
Everything I do, I have to do on my own, the big advantage is I'm home a lot.
I wonder if she knows he is gone?
Why do you suppose he left knowing the eggs were there? I thought they wouldn't leave if they were parents or whatever?
Thank you again for your replies.
And thank you pigeons.com for being out there in the WWW.
Lance, my thoughts go out to you too.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

HI FIRSTIMER,LOSING BIRDS IS PART OF THE PIGEON GAME.BUT IF YOU FEED YOUR BIRDS THE SAME TIME EVERY DAY,THAT'S GOOD.DON'T LEAVE FEED OUT FOR THEM TO EAT AT WILL.YOU NEED TO REGULATE THE WAY YOU FEED THEM.TRY TO PICK A TIME EVERY DAY YOU'RE GOING TO LET THEM OUT,AND DO NOT FEED THEM UNTIL THEY RETURN TO YOUR LOFT.AS FAR AS BRAKING THEM IN TRY TO KEEP NEW ONES,KEEP NEW ONES IN FOR AT LEAST 1 MONTH,THEN LET THEM OUT ABOUT 1/2 HOUR BEFORE DARK.BETWEEN IT GETTING DARK AND THEY DID NOT EAT YET THEY SHOULD STICK AROUND.I USUALLY LET MY FLYERS OUT AND LET THEM FLY ABOUT 1 1/2 HOURS BEFORE DARK,WHEN THEY LAND THAT'S WHEN I'LL LET MY NEW ONES OUT AND JUST LET THEM HANG WITH THE OTHERS,I'LL PUT FEED IN THE LOFT AND THEY WILL FOLLOW THE OTHERS.KEEP LENGHTING THE TIME YOU DO THIS AND HOPFULLY WHEN THEY DO FLY WITH THE OTHERS THEY WILL RETURN.WE ALL GET SAD WHEN WE LOSE ONE,BUT AGAIN THAT'S PART OF FLYING GOOD LUCK.


----------



## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Went through this one myself. Had never had much trouble getting a group to settle, until I moved here. Thier first time out, I lost about 2/3 of a large group. After that, a second batch had similar results. Once we finally did get them settled, it was a battle with the hawks, and lost many to them. The last straw was this spring, when the first baby berliner we successfully raised was killed by a hawk his first time to wander outside. 

I'm a big softie. I got tired of having babies lose one or both parents, or dreading to go look in the loft and night and see which of my favorites were missing. 

It's great to be able to see them soar through the sky, but if you're in an area where there are large numbers of predators or other difficulties, I'm not sure that's what's best for them. We found a sort of alternative. Around may, I decided that was it as far as letting them fly free. Besides predators, there were neighbors and thier evil little children to think of. There was the time involved, (I stayed outside the entire time they were outside). Then of course there was the feeling of realizing one of your favorites were gone. 

What we did is find homes for a lot of the flying breeds, the rollers, the white homers, on down the line. Instead, we're focusing more on some of the show breeds that don't need to fly around. I brought in some fantails and jacobins recently, neither of which I'd even consider letting out, they'd be sitting ducks. There are still some rollers here, a few white homers, but they have a nice flight pen and I make sure they are able to get enough greens........and they sure seem happy. I've had to start replacing eggs with dummy eggs, because they're breeding too fast to keep up with. They seem very content. Someone once told me that since we're thier owners, sometimes we have to make the call what's best for them. And that if your dog (or child) wanted to run down the middle of a busy street, we wouldn't stand by and watch, just because that's what they wanted. 

So, long story short, I'll cast my vote for keeping them in as well. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck. 


------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft www.geocities.com/havensloft 

[This message has been edited by DaveD (edited February 08, 2004).]


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

This has been a never ending challenge for a lot of us here, to fly or not to fly?

I've learned a few things first what birds should fly and what group shouldn't fly..

1.Any bird that is a show bird, should absolutely not be out of an enclosure, because they don't have the ability to take off as fast as a homing pigeon, nor do they have the agility. I found that out with my hooded tumbler, Sebastian. He got a terrible hawk wound, and now he gets to see the "great outdoors" from the aviary.

2. Any bird that is currently breeding (sitting on eggs or babies) should also not be out, as they are exhausted and stressed enough dealing with breeding.

3. Young birds who have not been trained before they are let out, and should be 6 to 8 weeks old when they go out. If you wait too long they get to strong in the wing, and take off and may not come back.

4. Any homer or racing pigeon who has not excercised for a while has the chance of being taken by a hawk. 

5...and birds that are getting older, 3 years or more, that haven't been out. It is just a death sentence for them. You can excercise them, if they go out and fly regularly.

6. Stay outside with the young birds that DO GO OUT until they are all inside. Do not let them linger on top of the coop, and that goes double for white pigeons.

7. If there is any doubt in your mind, to fly or not, keep them in. It is not worth it.
Get them a nice huge aviary to fly in.

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

This is the dilemma of the pigeon keeper and there are many factors to consider. I've agonized over this myself and lost pigeons in the process, because I was told I "had" to fly them. I think the bottom line is, what do your pigeons mean to you? If they are pets and you will be heartbroken to lose them, then keep them in. If you like to fly them and don't mind some losses, fly them. Like others, I'm not passing judgment on those who fly their pigeons. But for those of us who view them as pets, the losses are just too painful, and I think it's fine to keep them in.

Once my pigeons are mature, they don't seem to miss free-flying at all, even the racing homers. Let's put it this way: just because it's a bird, it doesn't have to free fly. Would you free-fly your cockatiel? Or African Gray? Your canary? Of course not! Then don't think that just because it's a pigeon, you have to let it free-fly. Would you let your dog play in the streets because a dog's nature is to roam? No. It's a brutal, fallen world, and if you want to protect your pets, by all means exercise your choice to protect them.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

Yeah I suppose the thing I need to do first, is change my way of thinking.
I, most of all don't want any of them to get hurt or lost. So my decision is to not let them free fly anymore.
I will be making some adjustments to their home in order to make myself and them feel better.
I was hearing "You have to let them out" by the person who gave them to me.
And I will tell him the next time I hear it, " You let yours out, I tried it two different times and lost 3 birds"
So anyway I was wondering if it is possible to bring the female(the one that WAS on eggs) inside my house to have her bond with me?
She gave up on her eggs since her mate took off.
I noticed today, she is off them more then she is on them.
Could I bring any pigeon I have inside to spend time with? I would want to pick one without a mate right?
I would be setting up a cage for at night and making a home for it inside my house where no other pets are allowed.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi firstimer,

Yes, I have people in my ear telling me the same thing "they got to fly.." The don't! It is your choice.

I know which birds to fly and which birds don't fly...I thankfully haven't lost one to any hawk. My two hand raised pets do not go out at all, but the have a pretty good size flight pen, and we are going to enlarge that.

Regarding the female pigeon, you could bring her in and she might bond to you, depending on how much time you spend with her. She cannot possibly hatch two babies and take care of them by herself.How long have the eggs been incubated by her? I had a mother in the same boat, but she hatched two babies and then abandoned them at four days old. I ended up raising them and they are totally tame and are my pets, as discussed earlier.

It is harder for a grown up pigeon to come in out of the coop and move in your house and bond to you, especially if they were happy in their coop and are part of a flock. You could try it, but you need to provide a lot of free flying and spend alot of time getting to know the bird. 

Treesa


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Treesa is right. It will be harder and take longer to get an adult bird to bond to you. It's much easier with youngsters. 

Something probably happened to your MIA male, or he would have come back. Pigeons are very dedicated parents. Winter is a bad time for hawks in many places. We learned this the hard way.









I, too, want to thank the creators of this web site. It was so encouraging to find people who loved and valued pigeons the way I did. Most fanciers I encountered prior to finding Pigeons.com viewed them more as livestock than pets.


----------



## DPyra (Jan 22, 2004)

Firstimer, I'm with you on the morals of caging winged creatures. I wrestled that one when I rescued a parakeet. She was so beautiful, and so wild. She flew into the store I was working in looking for food. But I live in a climate that gets snow in the winter. There was no way I could feed and release her. And I couldn't find her a home better than mine. She lived with me for seven happy years. And now I have the pigeons. I have no qualms about keeping them indoors. Sam has seen the sky, but he's a fantail. All he's interested in is my female homer. She's seen the sky through windows only. She does loops in the air in my back bedroom. In my opinion, they have the sky if they have 10 feet to fly across. You say you have 7 pigeons in a 12 X 6 coop. If you are attached enough to them to not want to free-fly them, you don't have to give them up. Build them a flight addition. As for sharing your home with the single hen, be prepared to share your personal space with an ungrateful guest. Sam still chews on my hands for my trouble. These hands didn't raise him, they just brought him in from the cold.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your feedback, as I feel like the lone ranger over here.
I am sad to say, the mother gave up on her eggs last night.They were 9 days old.
I found her flirting with the new white male all night.
I should take the eggs out right?
I found another female rolling the eggs around and doing something to them, I couldn't see through her. 
I do have a thing built for them to go outside a little.But they don't use it yet. 
Want to see? http://community.webshots.com/user/pigeongirl 
I want a bigger area now that I'm keeping them from free flying.
Any ideas on how I can do that for cheap?
I was thinking of putting in wood posts and then using a staple gun to hold hardwire.The ground goes down at least a foot before something hard to hit.
Maybe I can make it a little taller then the roof (7 feet) and not make the aviary itsself go all the way down to the ground.
I think it needs to be bigger even for seven birds.
Any ideas?


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Since you have that nice stone wall to prevent any predator from digging under your fencing, I really like your idea of putting in wood posts and then using a staple gun to hold hardware cloth. Regarding how high to make it, it's nice if you can reach all parts of the enclosure if you have to.

I have a foot of pea gravel as the base for my flight pen. Makes for incredibly easy clean up - just hose it down once or twice a day. Also drains well when I empty the bath pan. A few pots planted with greens (lettuce, spinach, or turnips) or non-toxic plants add vitamins and entertainment. Right now, the tender new growth on the pansies is a big favorite.

What about a board perch at about chest high across each of the corners? This way one bird can't hog all the sun and the birds can flit from perch to perch.

Your birds will help you find ways to make their lives better. Enjoy!

------------------
Terri B


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2004)

Long time no post! Year end at work...it's almost over! Anway, Firsttimer, same here, same dilema. Mine are used to flying though and have been very hawk smart, but I've moved and it's very hard to resettle older birds (found out the hard way







). 

So I've decided to do the same thing. Add on a bigger flight aviary that will be all open to the sunshine and regular bathing. I too, will have a bunch of non-toxic plants and branches for them. It will be something they will love. Even though mine were used to flying, what they did most was hang out on the deck sunbathing and getting in their swimming pool. If they weren't doing that, they were content sitting in the coop. So there wasn't a lot of flying, but I know they did enjoy it. I will eventually let them out to fly after having the open aviary to really get a sense of all the surroundings and it will be supervised and at different times of the day, so that the hawks won't have their schedule down. 

I feel that if they can fly once a week or so, they'd be content. I've had them up for almost a year now and it kills me. Only because they were all used to it. This is what prompted the addition to the aviary. They will at least have two of the three favorite things in life they enjoy...sunning and bathing more often, with a little more room to stretch those wings.
It's a hard decision, but I must say, one of the reasons I decided to have pigeons was knowing that they'd have a safe place and food to come home to, but could also fly. Then I had some losses...it killed me. Many nights staying out late hoping they'd fly from house tohouse to make it home and believe it or not, many returned. The ones that didn't I usually found evidence of a hawk..my only consolation, is that they were doing what they loved best and that was soaring the skies. It is an awesome sight, seeing their freedom. I do miss seeing my birds soar the skies for a 5-10 minutes, then come home.

My birds dodged many a hawk and I was usually out with them most of the time, first sign of a hawk would be one of my birds coming in flying really fast and going right in. They'd scatter, but 99% of the time, they returned, some late because they got off track. I'd make sure they were all in, then I'd shut their trap door.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Donna


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi firstimer,don't know if you received the wall directions.anyway if you want first decide how long of a flight pen you want.then put two post at that lenght and 6inches wider than the window on each side.run a piece of 1/8 cable to each post and attach your screening with electrical cable ties or if you want you can weave the cable through the screening.you can even add a screen door at the end so you can walk in.good luck.


----------



## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

I see a lot of real experience in all of these replies. My experience is that they don't give a damn about free flying. But I do. One of my birds is a superb pilot. His first free flight was against a Cooper's Hawk that had a speed and heighth advantage. He beat that hawk and came pack three days later--he obviously hadn't eaten or drank, not really knowing how or where. He stayed in a corner and whimpered for a few days. Since then he has been attacked at least a dozen times--once on the windowsill. Now he flies straight in with no fooling around!! Then I took him to my local flock. I would drive him there (1 block)and drive him back (pigeons love to car travel on the head rest and this is a great way for them to see the world safely). After several days he was comfortable enough to fly up on the eleveated perch with the local flock. When the hawk strikes came it was easy for him since the flock can see and absorb the strike much easier than a single bird. Yogi learned the tactics that give him the odds with the hawks. Now he won't fly out of my house but he will hang with the locals when I take him, fly around with them during hawk strikes and false alarms, and come home to his mate after some exercise. He is an F16. But I don't know if I can duplicate this result without appalling risks to a youngster. 

I have a big white king pigeon that came to me with 6 big holes in his torso from a hawk and I know he is too massive to have the quickness needed to even hope to learn the tricks. I tried a pet bird harness but that was no go. I am working with jesses and a long, light leash. I have a carying pouch and with this rig I can take him to town or country. 

So the odds may vary according to circumstances and training, but to avoid the devastation of losing your baby, keep them in the loft, aviary, car or on a leash.


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

whell if you wan't bird -pet i pre fer parakeets or parrets or cockatielsor macaw or any of the like ijust don't beleave that pigeons or alot of outher birds for that matter will realy be able to be pet's like most people think of pet's bou pigens can become quite tame i just wish people who wan't tame pigeons they would get some of a fancy or preforming variety not the wild ones just beacause when you have birds you always want better and more expensive what sounds better i have a wild type pigeon of i have a ?????????? it is a show type pigeon or i have a ???????????? it is known fore it preforming ability whell wild pigeons are wid ment to be leave them that way just please stick with domestic pigeons please i know some of you like wild pigeons but i would like to encourage you to get a breed and work on it to its show or preforming abilities what goood are hybrids not that good at all please also keep in mind that when ever you are around animals espeshily birds please practice excelent bio security rember there is the avian flue in part of this country also is it worth getting one bird with a disease and loosing all your outher bird's whell i didn't think so so please practice gret bio security fore the sake of everone in the bird hobby/business thanks what do you think about biosecurity rember please keep in mind whe need to keep the bird hobby around for future generations so do your part practice great biosecurity and rember let's improuve the birds we have not distroy them with hybrids rember practice bio ssecurity reembeer practice excelent bio security what do you think about hybreds also what do you think about biosecurity


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Personally I'm leaning towards getting away from flying/performance breeds and getting into fancies, like fantails. You don't have to feel guilty about not flying them, because they hardly fly and weren't bred to fly. Also, fantails tend to be docile and friendly--good pets.


----------



## DPyra (Jan 22, 2004)

Not to argue but, docile and friendly?! My sweet, spoiled Sam is anything but. I wish someone would tell him he's supposed to be docile and friendly. Of course, he is a rescue. That may be the reason. He chews on me, he chews on strangers, and this morning I separated him and Tory because he was chewing on her. Poor girl's trying to sit on a nest and he's kicking her butt! He's not always that ungentlemanly with her (in fact, it was a shock), but he is with me since he hooked up with her. I really have to spend more time with him. But fantails are definitely not interested in free-flying. Too many feathers to lift off the ground. Sam would much rather posture and eat. He'll only fly to impress Tory and to get someplace. He gets tired easily, so he doesn't do it for fun. But when he does fly, it's a beautiful sight! If and when I can take this hobby to the next level, I want to invest in more fantails.


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

it seems to me that alot of you have very little to do when you name your pigeons you must lead a boring life or sompting (got me wondering) you talk about your birds by name i don't know who what kind etc your bird is you are talking about them like i am your family or sompting please keep this in mind besids i probly won't rember your birds name or type in the neere or far future also alot of you sound like beginers in the pigeon hobby or haven't learned alot about them i sugest you get sever good books on pigeons and read the whole book front to back and also read some outhere wonderful information on the net there is lot's of it please rembere i am not faily i don't know who or what your bird is and rember practice good bio security and please do your part to help eliminate cross breeds they are of little to no value in the pigeon hobbby/sport and are probably not alowed in shows why not concintrate on improving a pigeon breed when you can get pure types from free -5$ and up so why not please help keep the pigeon hobby around fore future generations


----------



## dovemom (Aug 27, 2003)

Hey Birdguy123

You're at the wrong site. I think you are looking for ihatepetpigeons.com
Sincerely, Brenda


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

About fantails: I have one that was raised close to people, but he turned mean when he reached adulthood. He attacks everyone now; he'll peck you even when you're holding him. I'm not sure what breed he is, perhaps a Syrian fantail? He has a full fan and doesn't appear to be a hybrid. But I also have several American fantails. They are sweet, docile and gentle as can be.

Birdguy: Since when does it take time to name our pigeons? Some of us are creative and enjoy naming all our pets. I lead an extremely busy life full of many things other than pigeons, so I resent the implication that I have nothing better to do.

For your info, I own and have read several good pigeon-keeping manuals and I've learned a a lot more about them over the last several years. I've had pet birds my whole life, and this is my second time around with pigeons. We practice good biosecurity, vaccinate, feed them well and give them probiotics. The basics of pigeon keeping are not difficult to learn. 

As to crossbreeds, if they are kept as pets and no one is trying to pass them off as purebreds, what does it hurt? 

I'm sure you have noticed that this forum is for people who love pigeons of all types, including ferals. If you are primarily interested in raising them for show or performance there are other pigeon forums whose members express more traditional views. To each his own, but please don't criticize those of use who regard our pigeons as pets.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

birdguy123,

Why don't you worry more about yourself, like maybe thinking about picking up a English Book and learning how to spell correctly before you go around judging others?

[This message has been edited by firstimer (edited February 13, 2004).]


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

sompting? rember? neere? sugest?

fore? Oh boy!!!! failly? Oh boy!!!


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

i have about 50? pigeons and some ringneck dove12? so bug off didn't mean to offend some one who mightr be a beginer whell i couldn't name them couldn't rember there names.........


----------



## dovemom (Aug 27, 2003)

I would never criticize someone for their lack of education. I, however, have no problem criticizing closed-mindedness.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

We have 51 pigeons and every one has a name. I can tell them all apart, though some are quite similar. We have eight other pet birds of various species and of course they also have names. Remembering them all is not a problem for me.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

birdguy123
It wasn't only the fact that you were criticizing the people who are beginners, it was the fact that you were saying that people who name all their birds must not have a life. Just because you couldn't remember all their names doesn't mean that we can't.
I suggest you get a dictionary, because it's kind of hard to read what you write with so many misspelled words.
But this site is very friendly and here to help and give advice, and support when needed and I don't think anyone appreciates being told to "bug off" by a close minded person such as yourself.
So if you can't be decent then I think you should post your comments to another site.


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

whell you guys are tooooooooooooo much for me to much wining gowing on whell i guess i am leving fore now anyway by


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi birdguy123,

Would you do me a favor?...and take some time, go back on this post and check out the remarks and comments you have made that created all the negativity, and the so called "whining."

Thanks!

Have a great day...and don't let the door hit you on the way out!

Treesa


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

so glag birddope i mean birdguy will not be back for a while.to everybody else on this site hats off to all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!
also, as far as giving your birds names keep right on doing it.each bird has it's own personality and funny ways of doing things and they all should have a name if you so choose to do so.just like people,that receive nick names and i'm shure our sorry friend has plenty.don't let anyone with negative opions get you upset.i'll just choose not to reply to a person that is not open minded.thanks everybody for your help and replies,got to go now i have to go and name a couple of young ones now and put them in my log book.o yes i keep records to.


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

hello it's me birdguy hats off what you hate me or sompting whell i am saying that i think when people name there birds they are diferent type of person i am also saying that most people in pigeons for racing and or somwing etc don't name thier birds whell l think birds don't need names unless they live in your house whell with pigeons i think most fanciers would refer to them as the number on their band but to each his own whell i don't like you ( the people who wan't to chase me out) you know who you are sorry about your atitude problem hope you lose it as i said i didn't mean to offend anyoune here we all have our own opinion you don't need to down someone fore ther opinion 


also rember it is up to us (you and me) to keep our hodbbie(s) and intrest around for future generations to enjoy soy do your part to keep it around for them improve your birds not degrade them with hybreds mix breads etc rembere it is up to us do your part why down people like me whell thoes who do are wrong nd should find a nouther pkace to go besids pigeons .com whell i think a dumpster would be a good place i might just call it your castle that's all you deserve you rotton peoplesorry fore all of you people who got unwantingly put through this please forgive me just a few weeds that needed weeding sorry


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello birdguy,

We are all here because we love pigeons, and we are here to share the unique knowledge each one of us brings here to the forum.

We are not here to chase you out, but please review the rules on this forum on the first page of this website.

Keeping pigeons healthy and happy should be the top of our list of priorities. I agree with you that our pigeons should be bred to maintain their breeds, and quality, and not mix them. We are responsible for the future of the hobby,and keeping it around for our children to enjoy!

I do have one "oops baby",a Bandit, red Bar mix, that happened by accident, but she is not allowed to breed, but she is a darling, and a pleasure, and an incredible flyer. There are a lot of wonderful oops babies out there, with responsible owners. 

Take care, Treesa


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi all respectable members of this site.i was just looking through my racing digest and i was getting the results of a few races and i could not find any winners because i was looking for band numbers,then i relized the racers had names.silly me.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

HEY Arty, 
LOL you called birdguy123 birdboy123.
Ha Ha Ha very funny indeed.


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

forget it you all retarted or sompting or should i say you stupid people that wan't to get on me whell ok you have your dumb ways i said sorry i didn't wan't to offend anyone so i hope you just drop this he who continues is the most childish unless he continues on the original topic no more childish behavyou drop this your presistant retardedness wins so please drop this thanks


----------



## dovemom (Aug 27, 2003)

I agree, Birdguy123, let's move on.


----------



## DPyra (Jan 22, 2004)

As a new member of Pigeons.com and a newcomer to pigeons in general, I would just like to say I love this site. I love it for several reasons. 1) It is very informative. Better than any book I've encountered so far - and I read as a hobby. I prefer to read over any other activity (there are many of us out there). 2) This site seems to support a variety of pigeon fanciers, not just pet owners or pigeon racers. 3) This site is very open. Anyone can express themselves in any way. Even negativity (although expressly discouraged in the site rules) finds expression and discussion here. I think I covered everything. So I would just like to express a criticism. Wasn't this thread about Firstimer's concerns over hawks taking pigeons during free-flight? As a racer and breeder of pigeons, doesn't Birdguy123 have any advice for this fledgling racer? I don't recall Firstimer mentioning any names of birds or that there was any crossbreeding going on. I also don't recall anything that should have thrown up any red flags about "bio security". The direction this thread has gone in suggests that Birdguy123 should have started his own thread and not attached himself like a parasite to this one. Oh, was the word parasite offensive?! I'm so sorry. I'll crawl back into my DUMPSTER with my CROSSBREED HEN now. So sorry to offend you, Birdguy123.

But please don't go away. I find some of your misspellings amusingly challenging to decipher. Thank you.

I thought it was nice of you, by the way, to encourage some of the members to post how they got started, but you don't seem too interested in encouraging anyone new to get into your sport. Afraid some rooky will take the trophy away with some crossbreed? Firstimer posted some pictures of the setup and birds in question, in this thread. I saw only one breed of bird in those pictures. Did I miss something? From what I understand the birds have to be banded to race them. Most of us who have them as pets do not have our pets banded. That takes them out of the running for any race. And not having a good understanding of where a rescued bird came from takes it out of most shows as well. So the only threat either of my birds pose is to population. They are much like stray cats. Not good for anything except loving. So I really don't understand your sour grapes. Open another thread if you really want to explain it to me. Also, the responses on these threads are worded like we are talking to family because they are direct, conversational responses to questions and stories freely given as if to family. The opening welcome one receives when joining this site is a welcome to the "family" of Pigeons.com. We are an extended family of friends with a common interest - winged creatures, pigeons specifically.

One more question, are you determined to close this thread too? I noticed the only thread that is closed is you complaining about the purpose of this site. And the reason it was closed is the venom you, sadly, injected and inspired. As a fellow viper, I would suggest you read over your postings prior to hitting the "Submit Reply" button as if you are the reader and not the writer of your post. Try to put yourself in the position of the person receiving the reply. You may be able to screen out some of the emotion, and get your point across without causing all the stress - unless the stress is your point. In which case, I should feel pretty stupid for replying to you directly.

Firstimer, I know I've already put my two cents in on your dilema, but I would like to add something. The gentleman who gave me my crossbreed hen is a racer. He has over 50 birds in the space you have. He finds the hawks to be a source of a great deal of stress. But he has found that he can fly his birds successfully without losses if he flies them hungry and for short periods. He carefully chooses his time to let them out. He stays in his yard until they all circle and re-enter the loft. He used a wild bird that has adopted his flock to demonstrate this to me while I was there. Those that don't re-enter the loft will fly for miles and return home that night or the next day. He described the younger birds as "strong of wing", meaning they would fly for miles and possibly lose their way and not return at all. He doesn't name his birds. He doesn't seem to get as attached to them as some of us do (but I can't get into his head to be sure). But he is very passionate about his birds and the sport. He loves to race and to raise pigeons. He removes any eggs he finds in his racing loft. He has a separate breeding loft for that where he controls which birds breed. His birds are impressive. And only his racing stock is banded and allowed to breed. I had the oportunity to visit him this weekend and give him pictures of Torpedo. He allowed her parents to breed and raise one bird for me. He was happy to see she is doing well, and encouraged me to try to free-fly her. I only have the pair, with no real interest in going beyond the pet stage right now, so I am keeping my homer prisoner within the confines of my home. The resulting mess is not for everyone. She does loops in the open space of the rooms when she flies. It's quite a sight. The real issue you are facing is the natural struggle of life vs death. My friend sees losses in his lofts as unavoidable. If the hawks don't take them, starvation or illness or bad feed will. He explained that some grain storage places mix rat poison into the seed to prevent inventory loss and if he doesn't catch it, he loses pigeons. The corn goes bad and his birds get canker. The strong flyers go too far out and don't return. The weak racers don't come back from a race due to starvation, hawks, or distraction. Losses are inevitable in racing, and in free-flying. But you can lose a pet within your home too. I have lost many fish, two parakeets, three finches (the fourth is showing signs that her age is catching up soon), and most recently two chicks. All we can really do is make them as comfortable as possible and hope we catch the problems while they are still solveable, or don't become pet owners. I know what you are going through. I've been there, I'm still there. They are (for lack of a less sentimental example) our children. We want to protect them from everything. We have to trust that they can do some things on their own - or lock them up! Unlike our children, they can't get us arrested for that.







You do what you feel is best for your birds. If you keep them, there are many here who will continue to offer you great advice and support. If you don't - same thing. I for one think you are doing a great job and don't need to worry about free-flying. Good luck, and sorry this post is such a book!!


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

DPyra,
No I love books!
thank you for your post, and welcome to pigeons.com.
This is a great site, and that was my first time experiencing post from anyone like birdboy123.
So trust me when I say that, everyone here has been great to me and to each other.
I have decided to keep my 7 Babies inside their home for now anyway.
I need to update my pictures so no you didn't miss anything on that.
And I'm happy you got two of your own.
Your not by any chance in California are you?
I'm looking for someone around my neck of woods to visit their loft and talk to face to face.
Anyway WELCOME to a great site.
Keep in touch.
Oh, and feel free to post a book anytime.

Firstimer


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

Thanks Everyone,
But we all know there's a birdboy in every group.
what do you think of this?
Number 4 is what I was wondering about.


Here is some general information that may help you if you plan to settle young birds you have purchased.
1) House the young birds in an area where they can readily see the surrounding area. A wire aviary is good, or else just a large wire cage that can be set on your landing board so they can observe their surroundings and at the same time learn how to go in and out of your loft. 

2) Keep them hungry, so they associate you with food. Do not starve them, but they should always be slightly hungry. They need to know that it is in the loft that they get fed and watered. When you feed them, take away any leftover feed that remains after about 20 minutes, and train them to a whistle or some other auditory signal so they associate that with being fed and will come inside when they hear it. (But keep water before them at all times.) 

3) Until you are sure they know how to find their way back into the loft, do not force them to fly. They can get disoriented and get lost if forced to fly away from the loft before they are ready. It is best if the first time they go out, they go out on their own. For example, once you are sure they know how to get back inside, just let a door or window open and let them wander in and out. Always do this when they are hungry, so you can call them inside for food. 

4) If you feel they are too strong or too wild to trust the first time you decide to let them out, soak their flight feathers in soapy water so they can't fly very high, but watch out for cats or other predators. If the flights are wet, like they are after the birds have been bathing, they won't be able to fly so high or so far away that they get themselves lost.


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Okay, Okay, I am sorry as well for making fun of birdguy not spelling well...but, I've got to say it, the more I look at his posts, the more I say to myself, he cannot be for real....I don't care where you are from or how you were raised....NO ONE can be THAT illiterate, and know how to type and own a computer and know how to work it...I'm sorry, but I think he is playing with all of us for whatever sick reason. Bored, frustrated...who knows...I doubt he even owns any pigeons...if he did, he could not be so cold and uncaring. I do agree with him on the topic that this thread should end...I an sure he is getting a big laugh out of stirring everyone up...let's not give him the satisfaction. Such a sad person..has to get his kicks this way.


----------



## birdguy123 (May 8, 2003)

the reasson i spoke of bio securitr beaacause of the avian flue outbreak in part of the us that's all


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Am I right or what? You see the last post? He is playing with us w/ the spelling....NO ONE could spell like that and be for real...NO ONE. You know what....stupidity doesn't bother me...I deal with that every day of my life and if it is unintended..okay...my father was the greatest and he could not spell for crap..but he REALLY could not spell, that didn't mean he was stupid....this guy,.I don't know,,,,all I know is, if I had a real problem communicating in writing, I would let people know right off the bat that I had a problem, please bear w/ me as I state my opinion...this guy ignores it all and seems to go out of his way to make his posts even more difficult to read as he goes along...maybe he just likes the attention and sad to say, here I am giving him what he seems to so, pathetically, need. Shame on me.


----------



## DPyra (Jan 22, 2004)

Firstimer, I wish I could help you more directly. I am in Pennsylvania and do not have regular access to an active loft. The man I have referred to lives about 45 minutes from me and I don't see him often. He also mentioned the whistle to train his birds but I haven't heard of the water thing either. I have observed that my birds would rather preen than fly when they are wet. And that my homer is more likely to fly wet than my fantail. And that was my second encounter with someone like that. My first was on another site. It seems to go better if you just ignore them when they get like that. I shamefully admit he struck a nerve or two. I love your pictures, by the way, and am a bit jealous that you can build in your back yard. I will be resorting to a collapsible tent for fresh air for my birds. My association lets me change the plants, but not the buildings.

I appologize to everyone for posting after the agreement to end it. It took me a while to compose myself and prepare my post. I should have checked if there were replies before hitting the final button. I will be refraining from posting in the morning from now on to prevent myself from being sucked into such childishness again.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

DPyra
yeah I have all the space I need but no one to help me or to give my face to face directions.
I have many ideas in my head as to what I want but I don't know if any are even possible.
Your tent idea sounds like something I was once thinking about.
Hey we do what we gotta do right?
One of my many problems here, is that my building for the Pigeons is facing the wrong direction, it faces West.
So the pigeons never get to see the sun come up or go down because the house I live in is in the way.
Any ideas on that?
I'm thinking I'm SOL because even if I put in a sky light, they wont be able to see the sun come up, as it's behind their house, and they can't see it go down because my house blocks it.


----------



## firstimer (Aug 26, 2002)

http://community.webshots.com/user/pigeongirl 
here you can see my updated pictures


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello everyone,

I am sorry this thread has gotten so out of hand.
I would also like to ask that any urge to make fun of another member not be followed through. 

Birdguy:
I have previously addressed your inappropriate & disrespectful behavior toward our members, their pigeons & pigeons in general.

Your posts continue to be unacceptable, therefore, I feel it would be in everyone's best interest if you would please remove yourself from this site.
Cindy


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well Birdguy - I have - a lot - of pigeons, haven't time to go out and count them right now, but every single one of them has a name.
I'm in the UK, I run my own business, I also work part time, I have a house to keep, I am an avian vet nurse and run an emergency wildlife treatment clinic on call 24/7, I plough through 300+ emails a day giving medical advice to all sorts of avian problems. I also keep and breed owls and other birds of prey. On top of this I have a family to look after and a social life to try and grab when I can.
You say that because my pigeons have all got names, that I must be bored and should get a life! Well my pigeons have names because I care for each and everyone of them enough to give them names, and if I need to get a life, pray tell me, what- how and when should I get this life????? I certainly don't have the time to create arguments over petty little subjects such as why people give their pigeons names. I'm too busy living the life you say I haven't got.
I agree with Cindy, your remarks are way over the top.

[This message has been edited by Nooti (edited February 16, 2004).]


----------



## PidgePidge (May 14, 2003)

Just to add my two cents to what the discussion was originally about: flying and caging birds. 

It is a dilemma, and ultimately I would respect the individual decision of owners as they decide either to allow their birds out to fly or not (as long as those who don't fly their birds give them a big enough loft otherwise). However, I don't know if this makes a difference, but I too have my own story: Pidge Pidge came to me severly injured, a wounded feral. After probably 8 months of recovery, as he started to look 'intact' again, we began discussing if we should let him out of his cage. At the time I wasn't on this site and wasn't aware of the dangers of 'releasing' a domesticated pigeon. So one day we decided to take him outside and see what happened. We were nervous he would fly off, but figured it was his decision. Well he did fly.... STRAIGHT back into the house. Now he occasionally flies to get up on the furniture or into his coop (that is always open), but for the most part he'd rather be on the ground running, and that is definitely HIS decision. 

Also, I too struggle a lot about caging birds. Although I don't have this struggle fully resolved, I was thinking the other day particularly about birds who are born in captivity--as long as their standard of living is high, and they seem happy, I don't know if we can question what they 'miss.' Perhaps we humans are all living in someone's cage; if we have never known otherwise, how would we be able to tell? People say it is contradictory to their instinct, but human society conditions out of us many things that are part of our 'instinct', so again, as long as the birds are happy, who can say what is natural or unnatural (or if what is 'unnatural' is necessarily 'bad)? For parakeets, for example, who have been bred in captivity for many generations, it is clearly cruel to the individual domesticated bird to NOT care for them (conversely would clearly be cruel to 'set one free'). The morality of the domestication of their species in the first place might be argued, but for the individual bird, it is clearly a life-or-death issue and therefor the moral implications are clear. 

I find society finches an interesting embodiment of this whole question. Many of you probably know that their species was created through breeding entirely in captivity; i.e. the species has never existed in the wild. As such apparently they make very comfortable pets. Of course it depends on your definition of morality, but I toy with how I feel about #1 the species being 'created' and #2 therefore about these birds being caged regularly as pets. Although I respect arguments to the contrary (when they are reasonabe and articulate, of course), I personally ultimately tend towards justifying the caging of birds that are domesticated or (in the cases of exotic birds in particular) preferably born into domestication. Maybe I am just justifying my own pets, and occasionally I can definitely sway the other way and argue the other side, but anyway, those are my thoughts...

Good luck with your pigeons! Great pictures! They're a very handsome group!



[This message has been edited by PidgePidge (edited February 19, 2004).]


----------

