# speaking of crop stasis



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

I just found another pij who was just sitting on the street, looking off. When I picked her up (she was too weak to struggle much), liquid POURED out of her beak. It was a lot, and there's still some in her crop along with some seeds. I've never seen such a thing. No droppings so far. (On the street, I saw one dropping that was just urates and urine, but I can't be sure it was hers.)

What could be going on?

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The guts shut down for a variety of reasons, but usually infection. There's probably not much use giving that bird oral antibiotics--it's probably going to need them IO, IV or IM for which you'd need a vet. Even Sub-Q doesn't work in really bad cases. Either that, or you're going to need to give them up the vent. Best of luck, and don't even bother trying to give this bird any formula.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jenfer, I don't usually associate crop stasis with an adult pigeon so I start looking for something else. In a city environment, birds often have to drink water wherever they find it and many times it may be water that has dripped from our cars and could have all sorts of toxins in it like antifreeze. I look for a staggering gait, vomiting, diarrhea. listlessness, thirst, inability to eat, etc. 

Pigeons also can ingest lead which will poison them and often that presents itself through fluids coming from the mouth. 

Pigeon malaria (Plasmodium) can also present some of the same symptoms.

We have also gotten in some pigeons who lived in an area where beer is made and were poisoned by the hops.

We usually put a pigeon with symptoms you describe in a semi-dark room where it is quiet and warm. We set them up in a donut - folded towel with a hole in the center - with the rear a bit higher so fluids can drain from the mouth more easily. Getting fluids in them is a priority usually sub-q lactated ringers. If they survive a day or two with this regimen, we try to feed them Exact.

I don't know if your pigeon exhibits any of the other symptoms I mentioned but this is what we have encountered over the years of rehabbing. They are often gravely ill and the prognosis is usually guarded. There are so many things they encounter that are harmful to them.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Does the bird have a foul odor coming from its mouth/beak?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> I just found another pij who was just sitting on the street, looking off. When I picked her up (she was too weak to struggle much), liquid POURED out of her beak. It was a lot, and there's still some in her crop along with some seeds. I've never seen such a thing. No droppings so far. (On the street, I saw one dropping that was just urates and urine, but I can't be sure it was hers.)
> 
> What could be going on?
> 
> ...



Hi Jennifer, 



A foreign object in the Crop can in itself, or by causeing infections, can cause blockage of the Crop's passing anything to the Stomach, or, the Crop can sometimes pass 'Water' but solids will be blocked.


I imagine Canker can do this also, if it happens to occur low in the Crop or in the passage to the Stomach.


Abcess, if effectin the passage can also block things from passing...


Candida and Yeast infections in the Crop, whether because of a foreign object in there or not, can cause the Crop to be unable to pass it's contents to the Stomach, and in either of these, the Pigeon can have a Crop full of Water, or Water and however many Seeds, and the Water might pass very slowly at best.


'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' sometimes can clear the issue, if the issue is only one of Candida or Yeasts, or either of these Medicines can effect enough change for the Crop to begin draining into the Stomach...and if no foreign object or Canker or abcess are present, this alone, followed by the Bird eating and digesting again, can be sufficient for everything to rutn out well.



As far as I have seen, in Adult Pigeons, it is less likely to be the latter 'simple' scenario, than in youngsters.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi all,

It's 3:30 pm EST right now; if anyone reads this in next 30 mins., please respond quickly. (He's at the rehab clinic right now on oxygen, and I"ll be going back in 30 mins. to pick him up--that will be my opportunity to ask for meds, etc.)

Trees,

Yes, there's a foul odor. I don't know how to describe it. Sourish, but nothing I've ever smelled before.

We did a crop swab on him that showed 95% gram neg. Stain was "low flora."

His breathing is really labored. What antibiotics should I ask for? Can I do Baytril IM despite the muscle necrosis issue, or is there something better?

The other rehabber gave him barium (she said it would move things along, although I don't know that to be true; I asked for Reglan and she wanted to do barium).

We suctioned out 25cc+ of liquid from his crop. There are still seeds in there.

Thanks!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Go Baytril and go fast. Given some of his problems, you'd probably want to give him some LRS with Baytril in it IO (IntraOsseus). Good luck. Keep him heated, too--that's another way that you can provide life-saving energy.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Pidgey,

How does one give something IO???

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jenfer, 



Please see the post I made immediately before yours now.


Treatment would depend on what the diagnosis is, as for what is causing the Crop to cease passing it's contents.


Since the most common causes I have seen have been foreign objects, or, Candida/Yeast infections attending foreign objects or occuring on their own for whatever reason, or, possibly Abcesses or Canker, or just simple contusion even...and since regardless of what any original cause was, the contents of the Static Crop will tend to soon develop Candida and Yeast infections anyway...and whatever 'foods' are in the Crop will be fermenting, along with the Crop tissue being infected and inflamed and swelling, which fermentings also produce toxins which poison the Pigeon in their own right, it makes sense to me for any Static Crop to be treated with 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' or 'ACV-Water' ( with concentration of the latter to calculated to take into acount the volume of Water the Crop has in it to be about 3 to 4 tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon of Water )



Injury, bruising, contusion, especially to a Crop which was more than half full when the accident occurs, can apparently also cause swelling and subsequent stasis where the Crop is unable to pass liquids and foods to the Stomach, and these Crops can be 'full' of Water or Water and Seeds also with very slow draining, and, they can reliably develop Yeast or Candida issues very soon because of the foods fermenting in there.



So...


Have your Vet read this...

No more 'Barium'...



This is not to say that such a Pigeon could not also have other illnesses or issues which are unrelated to or independant of, their Crop problem...and it is not to say he has not at some point aspirated a little of the 'foul' liquid which if he had, would tend to cause a bacterial or fungal pnuemonia fairly quickly...which would lead to repiratory distress and probable demise unless treated for that additionally with Atomized Medicines he has to breathe in.


I hope that has not happenned...




Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Phil,

Crop swab showed no yeast. 

Just read that IO is into the bone. I can try that at home. Not sure the other rehabber would feel comfortable with that, but I want her to have some Baytril before the trip home (which takes over an hour). If not IO, then is Baytril SQ (in a fluid pocket?) OK?

I've got gent/saline/nebulizer at home and can start him on a treatment once I get home. I hope he makes the subway trip all right. He's gasping even on oxygen.

Thanks!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

IO is an easier way to give fluids and medications than IV, but only just. The needle is literally inserted into the end of the Ulna bone--but that's vet-only stuff. It would need to be metered in kinda' slowly.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Can we give Baytril IV instead? No access to vet right now. Oh, and I'm not going to attempt IO at home.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Best of luck--this one sounds in about as bad of shape as they can get. A nebulized treatment may reduce some blockage if there's phlegm but if there's an actual problem getting the blood gas exchange in the lung tissue then it doesn't look good.

I don't even see a protocol for putting Enrofloxacin in with LRS in the formulary so if you're going to do it, you might as well go IM. There is one for IV but you'd have to be careful if his kidneys had shut down because it'd dilute the blood further, exacerbating the oxygen-carrying ability of the blood.

It wouldn't surprise me if the bird was horribly anemic and sometimes even testing one in a state like this can kill it because the clotting mechanisms don't work very well under such circumstances. That'd be a case where you'd clip a toenail off just enough to get the drop for the hematocrit tube and then seal it off with silver nitrate or Clotisol el pronto before the bird loses too much. In the event of a very low reading, the vet might possibly be able to take blood from a donor pigeon (no need to type blood--doesn't work that way with them) and literally give this one a transfusion.

That's all theoretical, of course, and is unlikely to ever actually occur. There are limits to how far vets and rehabbers will or should go.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Did canker show up in any swabs? Dr Colin Walker says that 90% of sour crop cases are caused by a canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the proventriculus where it inteferes with the emptying of the crop which leads to bacterial infection of the crop ans secondary starvation and dehydration. This condition willl usually have progressed too far for treatment but he suggests that it is worth treating "a valuable bird" (to me they are all valuable) by manually emptying the crop, giving electrolytes in wter, treating the bird with 3 drops of Baytril twivce daily, and 1 tablet of Spartrix, or 1/4 flagyl tablet or 0.5 lm Flagyl syrup once a day.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Did canker show up in any swabs? Dr Colin Walker says that 90% of sour crop cases are caused by a canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the proventriculus where it inteferes with the emptying of the crop which leads to bacterial infection of the crop ans secondary starvation and dehydration. This condition willl usually have progressed too far for treatment but he suggests that it is worth treating "a valuable bird" (to me they are all valuable) by manually emptying the crop, giving electrolytes in wter, treating the bird with 3 drops of Baytril twivce daily, and 1 tablet of Spartrix, or 1/4 flagyl tablet or 0.5 lm Flagyl syrup once a day.
> 
> Cynthia




Hi Cynthia, 


Here in the Southern Mojave, 'Crop Stasis' from Canker ( if considering all age groups ) is probably on an order of 5 % rather than "90%".


If only respecting Adult Pigeons, then on an order of say 15 % thereabouts.



Usually, in adults, here in this region, it is occasioned by a foreign object, or, contusion, and either way, tends to have Candida either causing the Stasis or accompanying it.

In very young or Baby Pigeons who neophytes are raising and hand feeding, Static Crop has been 100 percent the result of Yeasts and or Candida from improper feeding protocols so far as the ones brought to me.


I have never seen any Static Crop in feral Babys or Babys being raised by their Pigeon Parents.


Fledglings who are on their own are prone to eating 'foreign objects' when desperate for not finding real foods or Seeds, and I have seen some who had gotten problems this way where non-food items in themselves or by bringing about a Candida infection, either way, their Crops cease emptying and ore usually filled with Water and whatever else.



So around here anyway, Canker is only occasionally the apparent or attributed cause of Crop Stasis.



Probably just about all of their illnesses differ according to region.




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Phil,
> 
> Crop swab showed no yeast.
> 
> ...





Is Candida included as 'Yeast' for the 'Swab' analysis?



Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi all,

She didn't check for canker in the swab. I've been told not to feed anything (aside from offering water in a dish) until the crop empties (still seeds in there).

We did the Baytril IV and LRS SQ. I can give her another dose of Baytril IM tonight.

Yes, the yeast they look for is candida.

There was SO much fluid in the crop--we took out 25 cc, plus she vomited like half that much right when I picked her up--that I thought there was a good chance she aspirated some of the liquid, which is likely to be bacteria-laden. I don't know what's causing the raspy breathing unless it's an air sac infection or pneumonia that's coming on. That's why I figured I'd nebulize her, since I have the tools here to do it.

Jennifer


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi jenfer, 


No 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' was given?



Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi Phil,

No, no Nystatin, though I have it at home and could give that myself if I wanted to.

I don't know if my Reglan suspension is injectable or not, and with the barium (which I still don't understand--why would it increase motility when the point of giving barium is to ascertain how quickly things are moving through?), I don't think it will do much good to give it orally.

Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reglan's not too good on a really sick bird because it can cause convulsions. There's a case or two on here where that happened. Seems like it's been every time it was used actually... you might try searching the site for "metoclopramide".

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> No, no Nystatin, though I have it at home and could give that myself if I wanted to.
> 
> ...




Hi Jennifer, 



Well, in reviewing your Thread here, I do not find that anyone has postulated a diagnosis.


Is this correct?


I do not understand how 'Reglan' would be of any use here with this...but, if there is a reason for it, could you let me know what that reason is?


I would say, based on my own mistakes and successes past, if it were me, I'd definitely consider to -


1) Gently suction out whatever Liquids as are in the Crop...tube in say an ACV-Water solution, and suction 'that' out also...


2) Feel with your fingertips around the bottom area of the Crop, to see if you feel any lumps of odd firm-things, that is, once you have suctioned out the Liquids in there...since palpating could cause them to overflow and compromise his Breathing, otherwise.


3) Consider to treat for Canker, via Oral administrations of an anti Canker medicine...which can be done via 'the tube' having dissolved the Tablet in a little ACV-Water.

4) Consider to treat with Baytril for possible primary or secondary infections which could be going on.


5) Give oral adminstrations of 'Medistatin' or 'Nystatin' along with the meds ( Since even if the Vet claims to have found no Candida, there soon will be if old Seeds are still in the Crop, or, your Vet does not know how to find it, even if it is there and is a serious problem...so...either way, I would treat for it if it were me...)


6) Keep a little slightly Acidified liquid in his Crop, and monitor the Urates being made, and or look for old poops being eliminated...and watch for signs of the Crop's condition improving to where it is passing Liquids anyway, and or if it might be ready to pass Formula.


What have the poops been like so far?



Good luck with this..!



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Phil,
> 
> Crop swab showed no yeast.
> 
> ...




Hi Jennifer, 


The only occasions I have given injections of Baytril, it was into the muscle along one side of the Keel.


I believe the concern about 'necrosis' is slight when only giving one shot, since it will be only a small area and will heal readily.

Injections in my use of them, tend to be for dire situations, and usully would not have to be continued, once the Bird is soon better enough to have Oral administrations...but, with a Static Crop, this might be a few days...


I have never used a Nebulizer, but, usually, one would use a Medicine in it, such as Gentomycin or Amphiterizone-B ( sp?) ...and these pnuemonias can be fungal and bacterial, so wiser heads than mone would be called for as for what Medicines one would Nebulize for treating.


I have had what I took to be success by using a small cloth saturated with Turpentine, set low into the Cage Bars, and, the Pigeon sought this out and spent the night with his Beak right up to it, and next day coughed up a huge amount of infection-matter and was breathing alright again, but I do not know whether he had an spiration pnuemonia ( he did appear to have an aspiration incident in a tube feeding mishap ) , or was just having trouble breathing because of infection 'goo' and solids which had accumulated in his Throat and which were already covering his airway when I got him.


I will say, I did not force him to breathe the Turpentine, but, that I provided the little saturated cloth and he sought it out on his own.


Check your Pigeon for how his Trachea looks, and see if it bothered by any whitish goo or whiteish wetness or unusual dialation-diameter or wetness that seems to be coming from inside his airway.



Sorry I harp so much on the Yeast-Candida thing, it just sees to happen a lot around here, and is a typical complication of any Crop Statis situation, even if not as cause.




Best wishes on this..!


Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks, Pidgey and Phil.

I know Reglan has some side effects (well, I know this in cats at least), but I thought maybe it was called for in this case. 

I emailed the avian vet about the barium, and he was a little upset that it would be given with crop stasis (esp. given the chances of regurg and aspiration of the barium). Vet did say I could have done the Reglan (that is, before the barium was given) but didn't mention the side effects.

Phil, I'm nebulizing with gentomicin in a saline solution on the assumption that she might have aspirated some of that disgusting fluid that was in her crop (either before or after I got her).

Other than that, I'll leave her be for tonight. Maybe I'll SQ some more fluids before bed--should I, do you think? She's been through a lot today!

I have this mental block against giving Baytril IM now, since I've seen what it does to the bird when injected into the thigh muscle. On the breast it isn't so noticeable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't cause muscle pain.

On another note, I hope I don't encounter any more sick birds for a while! (It seems like the more I think I have as many as I can handle, the more I keep finding them.)

Thanks all! I hope she's comfortable for now at least. She seems sweet (but then, they all do).


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Frankly, I didn't think she was going to last this long so my hopes are up a little higher now. Best wishes overnight!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 




You have many very desireable skills I do not..!


If he is making Urates, then this could be taken as a suggestion that his hydration is in the alright zone...

But, if you are talented at injecting a proper Rehydration solution under the Skin, at the Thigh for example, I see no reason not to, eapecially if you have the kind which has some glucose in it, since he could probably use the calories.


I am inclined to encourage you to do the Baytril injection at the Keel, since a one time deal of it will only occasion a slight discomfort ( well, the smaller the Needle, the better, ) and a tiny localized necrosis, and, it might really pay off if he does have a systemic bacterial issue which the Baytril can address.


Systemic Bacterial infections can occasion labored Breathing or open Beak Breathing in their own right...and by the time they are doing so, there is usually little 'time' left.


Did you inspect the dialation and 'wetness' and color and so on, of his Tracheal aperature?


Is it staying wide open constantly?


Is it 'white-ish' and 'wet'?


Or is it just 'Pink' and dialating with each inhalation?


Provide "heat" of course, in case you forgot..!


( As for me, I really need to make 'Check Lists' like Pilots use, since I forget things, or, I remember them later, and realize I almost forgot them...)



Fingers crossed...


Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, she's gone. I think she aspirated the barium. I was told to offer her a dish of water, and in hindsight, I wish I had withheld that.

I picked her up to try to SQ some fluids and do the Baytril injection. Her crop still had a bunch of seeds sitting in the bottom. I SHOULD HAVE SUCTIONED HER CROP BEFORE HANDLING HER, but I didn't feel much fluid in there, so I thought she was OK. In the process of holding her, she started gushing white fluid, so then I just held her forward so it could come out hopefully without drowning her, just like I did on the street. More fluid came out than I thought was in there along with seeds, and then in the next moment she was just gone. 

Although I know she was in bad shape, I feel so awful. Maybe she would have survived if I emptied her crop before trying to medicate her, or if I had withheld drinking water, or if I hadn't let her be given )*([email protected] barium. Or maybe I should have just let her die in peace rather than subjecting her to this and that.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We've all got ghosts, Jennifer, and all we can do is try and learn from them. I've got my own share as most of us here do. Let her ride on your shoulder in peace and whisper in your ear the next time you get a bird in this kind of shape. It will happen again, somewhere down the road. There will be times that the experiences that you have with your losses will help guide you on what not to let the vets do sometimes and when not to let them do it.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, somehow, Pidgey, that doesn't make me feel better. I'd rather think that there was no hope whatsoever than that I made a multitude of mistakes that potentially cost her her life.

Before I set out to medicate her this morning, I even had the thought that I ought to suction her, but then I thought better of it because I thought it would stress her too much, and she was having the labored breathing again. She had had a largish dropping with feces in it last night, which encouraged me, but there were a lot of seeds undigested still in her crop when she died.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

None of my own ghosts make me feel better, either. Yes, we are going to make mistakes and much of the time, we're going to be unsure about them. That's probably the best way to be as it may someday make us take a different course that works better but goes against the standard methodology.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm sorry Jennifer. 

Cindy


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Sending comforting hugs, Jennifer. Most rehabbers learn more from their losses than they do from their saves. I learned it was more important to KNOW what not to do...cause you will always have plenty of suggestions of what you should do.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry Jennifer. If she had a chance of survival it was very, very slim. I have tried suctioning fluid out of the crop but that has never worked very well, milking the crop is often the only way. My vet and I were discussing this a couple of weeks ago and it is a procedure he hates because of the high risks involved.

The important thing is that despite the poor prognosis you cared enough to do all that you could do for the pigeon.

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks, Cindy, Nona, Cynthia. I've been repressing my feelings about this for now because it's a little too painful. 

What is "milking the crop"? I did massage the crop where the seeds were hoping that would encourage them to pass, but maybe instead it encouraged the liquid upward. Sticking the tube down her throat to attempt suctioning seems so low-stress compared to what eventually happened. Maybe with the first round of crop suctioning, Reglan (despite risks), no water or barium, and antibiotics she could have recovered despite the poor prognosis...

Sigh.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jennifer, I'm sad for you too. It is so hard to put our heart and soul into saving one and not succeed but there are just too many things our feral pigeons are subjected to that can harm them. All too often when we get in an adult that is as sick as yours, it is very difficult to save them. About the only comfort we can give ourselves is that, at least, we tried.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think you have to have the right kind of tubing if you're going to suction a crop out. It's pretty easy to suck a thin-walled tube flat and also to literally suck up the wall of the crop for a stronger tube with a straight cut end. I've sucked a few crops out, but not very easily. I did it for Lazarus, but he was way too sick to fight it--I'm not even sure that he noticed.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Jennifer,

Milking the crop is when you turn them upside down and manipulate/squeeze the contents out.

Cynthia


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Jenfer,

I've been following this thread but haven't posted as I did not have any better information than was already given. I'm so sorry you lost her. It is a dilemma in these cases for you don't know what is causing the problem, don't have some of the diagnostic tools and even if you did, as many vets would tell you, it is still a complicated call as to how to proceed. We can only learn from each other and I'm sure you have read how those here who are quite experienced still loose the battle at times. It never feels OK, but you did all you could to save her. Please don't do the if I did this or that to yourself. Take some time and then if you want to examine the process, do so only in the spirit of learning. You took advice from those you thought were more expert eg. the barium. The bottom line is you did your best. You sought out help and proceeded according to the best advice you could get at the time. You can't do more than that. Thank you so much for trying. There are many who would not have bothered.

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 



I think you did a great job there with this Pigeon, and the condition he was in, and the time you had to do anything, were way stacked againt you.


I do not think that the 'Barium' did any harm, but, I do not think it was likely to have helped, either. The 'weight' or Specific Gravity of the suspended Barium in effect, being expected to find a way through a blockage between Crop and Stomach, to to move the blockage itself along, when that blockage is of unknown kind, is a nice idea 'as' an idea, but it can not address the blockage itself very well, ( and if the blockage is a foreign object , with or without inflamitory debris or Candida attending it, we would prefer the blockage does not get 'moved along' since it would then be harder for us to get out ) and, the Liquid in a 'sour' or 'static' Crop ( in my own recent and increasing reflections, ) should probably be carefully suctioned out anyway, since it is liable to be toxic to one degree or another...and present dangers of aspiration under various conditions.



The 'Regalin' - as I understand it - likewise...would not be of any use for these situations, and, or, could be harmful of dosed too highly for what the Bird's liver and Kidneys and so on could handle in breaking it down.


Now, as one of our Members recently posted about, plain 'Pepto Bismal' can help sometimes, help abdominal discomforts as well as help Crop issues sometimes, or, it will help, in cases where it does help, anyway.


Now, on the 'suctioning' out of Liquids in a Static, 'foul' or 'sour' Crop...it seems to me that if one has a very soft Catheter, and makes a longish 'Julianne Cut' on the end, and, even do a little 'clip' a little higher up so if the Julianne cut end is against his Crop wall, the other little hole we clip out would still do the suctioning...that this will be the least likely to clog with a Seed getting drawn onto it...and least likely to injure anything in there while we are fussing with it.

Some Catheters also have ends with several small holes along the end with a closed blunt tip, and these might work well also, as long as the Liquids were not suspending too many fine particulated which would clog the tiny holes.


My own thoughts then, and my own recent regrets and confusions, have me believe that getting all that Liquid 'out' would be a good thing, and, when it is all pretty well out, to then flush well with a light ACV-Water and suction THAT out then, and then, after flushing and suctioning out the ACV-Water, so no more liquids are in the Crop, then, one can 'milk' or gently 'massage' out whatever else ( Seed wise and otherwise,) is in the Crop...and be on the lookout for feeling for any potentially foreign objects, abcesses, 'lumps' or as may be, which one might safely be able to feel for at this phase.


And, for this, laying the Pigeon on his side, so his neck is even resting on it's back, lightly binding Legs and Wings to do so if need be, though the Pigeon is favoring being on his side with his Body proper, one then has their Trachial aperature higher than the Seed-goo-stuff would be, as one 'milks' out whatever Seeds or other things are in the Crop, one glob or one amount at a time, with time for the Pigeon to breathe and rest a little before the next amount is brought out.


Too, before doing this latter procedure, it would be good to inspect the Pigeons Tracheal aperature, to see if it is closing between breaths, or, to see if it is staying open or staying widely open...since if it staying widely open, it would be best to wait or forego trying to milk anything out.


The only exception to this would be if one suspects 'Poison Seeds' to be in there, and, these, usually being 'large' Corn Kernals, they could be milked out without much liability to his aspirating them...once all has been flushed and suctioned of course to reduce the possibility of his aspirating any Liquids.


Once the Crop has at least had it's Liquids suctioned out, if one is not going to 'milk' or 'massage' Seeds and other things 
'out'...one can address any concerns about how these Seeds or other food things are likely to ferment, or are already fermenting, by causing the PH of the Crop to be in a range which does not support fermentation, Yeasts, or Candida...and, the ACV-Water flushes would help this concern, and ACV-Water, 'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' could be used also via the 'tube' and left in there...these would address Yeasts, Thrush or Candida then.


I have also seen Liquid Filled Crops contract to where the Bird was standing there with liquids pouring out his Beak, and this is very scarey since of course he could aspirate them, and those too weak to stand of course, would be in even greater peril with this.

I had not put these liquids in there, but, I was trying to figure out what TO do about it being in there.

Now I now I can suction them out easily...and, pulling the Pigeons Head up HIGH and having their Beak pointed UP of course is to be prefered when Suctioning liquids out...however it is one holds the otherwise or has help holding them to do this.

And, with a Crop which is not passing, from causes thought to be Canker or inflaitory debris issues incidental to Bacterial infection ( rather than from Candida or Thrush ) one can give anti-Canker Medicines and other medicines orally, via a 'tube', which have been disosolved in a little Water, hoping these will somehow trickle through into his Stomach and on from there, or, if one has them, give injections of anti-canker meds, or antibiotics also.


One can also adminster these meds into the lower intestine terminal end, or into the Vent's pouch area then hold one's finger over it so the liquid medicines get absorbed or pulled into the Intestine, but I have not tried this yet, and the one time I wanted to try it, I could not manage it by myself for holding the Pigeon and so on to do it.


This of couse would be done via a very soft Catheter or very small round-blunt-end Gravage device...since those tissues are sensitive and probably a little fragile.



Anyway, I recently lost one who had a similar situation to yours, and I have been brooding on how to regard these general sorts of conditions we run into now and then.


Systemic bacterial infections or shock resulting from systemic infections getting beyond a certain point, also concerns me, and in these concerns, with Crops which can not empty in order for orally adminstered medications to get anywhere, one would pretty well have to administer the Antibiotics via Injection into the Muscles along side the Keel or in the Thigh, and, maybe, inject anti-canker Meds also, or adminster them with an 'iv' depending on the kind of Medicines one could get to use...


Anyway, please don't fault yourself...these are really difficult and complicated conditions to deal with, and usually they are far advanced by the time we do get them, or, they can be, even if we might get an 'easy fix' now and then which is in this Ball Park of apparent presentation.

I have had several 'easy fixes' with Crops that were not emptying, and of course that is really nice..! Wow...Yippeeee!


But, we get what we get, and some of the ones we get,and are going TO get, are not going to be easy fixes at all.




Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about suctioning a crop. I want to warn members that this is a highly dangerous procedure and should be done by a vet or by people trained by a vet to do this.

Any vet we have used where crop suction was deemed necessary have always told us up front that suctioning could result in the death of the pigeon from aspiration or shock. This is not a procedure that we have used frequently and yet we have lost two birds even when it was done by a vet. 

I truly don't want to "stir" anything up by posting this but also I don't want members to think it is a routine procedure that they could or should attempt any time a crop seems full.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi everyone,

When I say "crop suction," what I mean is inserting a 16" feeding tube attached to a syringe (we used 12 french) into the crop and then withdrawing the contents. The feeding tube is a standard catheter with a rounded tip and two staggered eye holes near the end.

In this case, the fluid came out very easily (as I said, there was a LOT of it), and the bird seemed to feel better right after.

Lady T, are you talking about the same method as I describe above? It did not seem any more stressful or dangerous to the bird than tube feeding would. I'll ask the avian vet about this.

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Probably the worst danger is that a very weak and "out of it" pigeon might feel the need to regurgitate too strongly during the procedure while gasping due to the other stuff going on. 

A "french" by the way, is a term used that means "1/3rd millimeter" in the diameter of catheters and endoscopes. Therefore, a "12 French" is 4 millimeters, or a tad over 1/8" in diameter.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

> I would say, based on my own mistakes and successes past, *if it were me, I'd definitely consider to Gently suction out whatever Liquids as are in the Crop...tube in say an ACV-Water solution, and suction 'that' out also...*





> I have tried suctioning fluid out of the crop but that has never worked very well, milking the crop is often the only way. *My vet and I were discussing this a couple of weeks ago and it is a procedure he hates because of the high risks involved.*





> *Now, on the 'suctioning' out of Liquids in a Static*, 'foul' or 'sour' Crop...it seems to me that if one has a very soft Catheter, and makes a longish 'Julianne Cut' on the end, and, even do a little 'clip' a little higher up so if the Julianne cut end is against his Crop wall, the other little hole we clip out would still do the suctioning...that this will be the least likely to clog with a Seed getting drawn onto it...and least likely to injure anything in there while we are fussing with it.
> 
> *Some Catheters also have ends with several small holes along the end with a closed blunt tip, and these might work well also*, as long as the Liquids were not suspending too many fine particulated which would clog the tiny holes.
> 
> ...


A suggestion to suction the crop was made a couple days ago. 

An example & *warning *about this procedure followed.

Last evening another, more detailed post was submitted regarding the suctioning of the crop.

Personally, I feel we need to cease with the encouragement of crop suctioning. This is an extremely dangerous procedure & as Maggie states below, should only be performed by a vet or one who has been properly trained.

* *This particular procedure also needs to be approached with extreme caution.* 
Anytime a foreign object is inserted anywhere in the body there is a risk of doing damage.

Cindy




Lady Tarheel said:


> There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about suctioning a crop. I want to warn members that this is a highly dangerous procedure and should be done by a vet or by people trained by a vet to do this.
> 
> *Any vet we have used where crop suction was deemed necessary have always told us up front that suctioning could result in the death of the pigeon from aspiration or shock.* This is not a procedure that we have used frequently and yet we have lost two birds even when it was done by a vet.
> 
> I truly don't want to "stir" anything up by posting this but also *I don't want members to think it is a routine procedure that they could or should attempt any time a crop seems full*.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And here are pictures of a similar catheter to what Jennifer is using:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1409147552073664377OsPkXr

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1409148832073664377wlbhLd

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1409147552073664377OsPkXr

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

For anyone who cares, the actual catheter is this one:

http://www.allegromedical.com/urologicals-catheters-c539/dover-rob-nel-catheter-sterile-p192601.html
http://www.allegromedical.com/urolo...l-dover-rob-nel-catheter-sterile-p192600.html

Jennifer


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> When I say "crop suction," what I mean is inserting a 16" feeding tube attached to a syringe (we used 12 french) into the crop and then withdrawing the contents. The feeding tube is a standard catheter with a rounded tip and two staggered eye holes near the end.
> 
> ...


Jennifer, yes, that is what I'm talking about. All I can tell you is what our vets have told us over the years, that it is a dangerous procedure. 

Suctioning is the exact opposite of tube feeding. You run the risk of the tube suctioning the wall of the crop or penetrating the crop. Of course with tube feeding you can also accidentally penetrate the crop but it is less likely than when you are suctioning. You may not even know if a solid particle has clogged the tube or you are suctioning the wall itself. I believe suctioning causes more distress than tube feeding.

I know there are members who can successfully do this. My concern is that some members may try it without being aware of the dangers. I think it is also important to know if crop suctioning itself is warranted and not just do it "willy-nilly" without trying to find the underlying cause of the problem to begin with.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I care, Jennifer, but I am livid because I use what appears to be an identical one (I cut it down to size), but a single tube costs me about $20!!!! I wonder if I can import a case?

http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=8&pnum=A2A5F

Maggie, I agree about the danger of suctioning, my great misgiving is that I can't see where the tip of the tube is or what it is sucking at. But I have to add that milking the crop is also extremely dangerous and a "life or death" measure only. My vet said he has carried out this procedure on 5 birds (not pigeons) and of those five two died of inhalation pneumonia a couple of days later. 

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Cynthia, that is insanely expensive! Most places that sell them will require a prescription. The only place I've come across that does not require an Rx is http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/product/575/red-rubber-feeding-tubes-and-catheters.htm
I don't know if freight to the UK will offset the savings.

Lady T, in this particular case, the fluid was coming out of the mouth even when you touched the bird. A huge amount came out on the street when I picked her up (had to have been 10 ccs or so) and her crop was still bulging two hours later. 25 ccs of fluid came out easily in one try. Her crop was so overfull, it's likely she aspirated some of it before I even found her. In this case, I have no doubts the suctioning was warranted (even if only for the comfort of the bird) even though we did not clearly know the cause of the stasis.

There are no avian vets close to me and I have no car and I have to work around the constraints of having a regular job; the closest vet would have cost at the very least several hundred dollars if not close to $1000 for such a procedure, had they been willing to see the bird at all (they have a policy against treating wildlife for fear of contagious disease).


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I simply refuse to milk a crop for that reason. My belief is that if they've got crop stasis, you can put Baytril, Medistatin (Nystatin) and Metronidazole down there in extremely low volume (very little dilution) and keep the crop contents from souring. If the bird's dehydrating then the supplemental fluids and systemic antibiotics (that probably aren't going to get in orally) need to go in some other way. I don't personally do parenterals, I leave that for my vets to do. I did administer fluids to Lazarus through the vent and that was one of those beginning-of-a-holiday-weekend emergencies right after getting home from a trip.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> (they have a policy against treating wildlife for fear of contagious disease).


Oh, boy! This world gets weirder every year.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jennifer, please understand that what I said is not directed at you or anyone. I never want to hurt anyone, particularly someone who has cared for and helped save our loved pigeons. 

I sit here in a city with access to several top notch vets so I don't face the problems someone like you does. Much of our vet work is either gratis or at a cut rate also but even then we have spent hundreds of dollars on birds over the years. 

Even though we have helped many birds, I still don't have the courage to tube feed. I have done many, many things to try to save one but I draw the line at tube feeding because it scares me so I admire anyone who can. 

Again, I just felt a caution needed to be given.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Lady T,

No worries--I'm not hurt or insulted, and I have taken the caution in mind. I was just clarifying the particulars of this one case in case anyone wondered.

I used to hate tube feeding because I was so scared the tube would go down the trachea instead. Now I've figured out that with a good pair of magnifying lenses, I can actually see the tube going past the trachea and into the esophagus as I'm inserting it (and I mark off 3" from the tip with a piece of tape so I know how far I'm inserting it), which puts me much at ease (I still don't *like* tube feeding, though).

How very lucky for you that the vet sees your birds gratis! There is one avian vet here who does that also, but she's quite a distance away and can see birds only certain days of the week. The vet I've been working with most recently (who is also quite a distance away) does offer a discount, but the costs still really add up quickly, as you say. In my case, if a bird needed SQ fluids daily, it would be totally impractical to bring her to the vet to have it done, which is the main reason why I'd try to learn to do it myself. (I was about to ask Pidgey the best way and place to do SQ fluids, but he's just said he leaves that to the vet!)

Jennifer


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

jenfer said:


> There are no avian vets close to me and I have no car and I have to work around the constraints of having a regular job;
> *the closest vet would have cost at the very least several hundred dollars if not close to $1000 for such a procedure*, had they been willing to see the bird at all (they have a policy against treating wildlife for fear of contagious disease).


Boy, do I feel blessed.

Back in 2005 our 'Pij' developed sour crop. The situation was the same as yours, Jennifer, in that when I picked him up liquid drenched the front of me.

I called our vet who was booked solid, however referred us to another vet. We called them, & they said bring him right over.

Upon exam, the vet confirmed Pij had sour crop. He took him to the back room. A few minutes later he came out with a 10cc tube filled with a bile appearing liquid. I was horrified & said, "You got ALL that out of his crop?" His reply was, "Yes & we have 6 more just like this". *70cc's* were removed from Pij's crop.

Now for the bill:
Office visit (*new pt. + emergency visit fee*) *$49.00*
Aspirate Crop Sample Avian *$25.75*
Crop aspirate cyctology *$25.00*
Nystatin 100,000 U/mL Oral Suspension (15) *$14.25*
Baytril Taste 136 mg Tab (2) *$20.50*

Grand total for that emergency visit *$134.50*

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Different localities seem to have different ailments. I, for instance, don't often see the kind of canker swellings below the chin that many of y'all see in abundance. The upshot of that is that we as rehabbers can end up with different skillsets and experiences. Some of these will be due, in fact, to our own personal circumstances. I don't have access to a subway and go to my vets in my pickup. That gives me choices that Jennifer doesn't have as it's far less bother and worry to make the trip. Personal finances and local prices matter, too, of course. And never mind the fact that some of us have local flocks that vary in their overall health. It's extremely easy for a sick pigeon to disappear in the vegetation of my neighborhood while they stick out like a sore thumb in the "asphalt jungle". The rehabber in such a place who cannot just walk by a sick or injured bird can be severely overburdened compared to a rehabber in a situation like mine.

Not recognizing and acknowledging that these varying circumstances can impose drastically different realities for the different rehabbers can make it all too easy to be judgmental against one another and we see this from time to time even here on this forum. That's probably something that we should all ponder more.

Pidgey


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Those Almighty Vets are a different story depending where you live and how much rent they have to pay.
I just last week took a green cheeked conure to my favorite Avian Vet for a well bird check-up after i dealt with a yeast or canker problem I could see in her beak when she returned to NY from spending the winter in Anza,Ca. with her owner. Dr. Neumann did a complete blood workup, throat swab, trimmed her overgrown lower beak and gave her a vitamin shot ......beak trim $20 ....total bill $417.00. Later the results of swab, blood, fecal showed the bird as 100% healthy. Not every person can afford such prices ... and that wasn't even for emergency services and certainly not for a feral pigeon who has no owner to step forward to pay the bill.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Different localities seem to have different ailments. I, for instance, don't often see the kind of canker swellings below the chin that many of y'all see in abundance. The upshot of that is that *we as rehabbers* can end up with different skillsets and experiences. Some of these will be due, in fact, to our own personal circumstances. I don't have access to a subway and go to my vets in my pickup. That gives me choices that Jennifer doesn't have as it's far less bother and worry to make the trip. Personal finances and local prices matter, too, of course. And never mind the fact that some of us have local flocks that vary in their overall health. It's extremely easy for a sick pigeon to disappear in the vegetation of my neighborhood while they stick out like a sore thumb in the "asphalt jungle". *The rehabber* in such a place who cannot just walk by a sick or injured bird can be severely overburdened compared to *a rehabber* in a situation like mine.
> 
> Not recognizing and acknowledging that these varying circumstances can impose drastically different realities for the *different rehabbers* can make it all too easy to be judgmental against one another and we see this from time to time even here on this forum. That's probably something that we should all ponder more.
> 
> Pidgey


You seem to be focusing on 'rehabbers' specifically, Pidgey.
I did state crop suctioning should only be performed by a vet or one who has been properly trained, which would most likely be a rehabber.

We also need to keep in mind, many of our members are *not rehabbers*. 
The majority of them are completely unfamiliar with advanced procedures (yes, I consider crop suctioning to be an advanced procedure). 

As far as *my post*, I don't feel I was being judgemental whatsoever, rather suggesting that it's a bad idea to encourage crop suctioning. 
For that matter, I feel it's a bad idea to encourage any type of advanced procedure. 

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> (I was about to ask Pidgey the best way and place to do SQ fluids, but he's just said he leaves that to the vet!)


I understood that he left the IO cannulation to the vet.

Only crystalloid fluids should be given sub Q (I have this horrible vision of someone mixing up a home made concoction), and as the skin is not very elastic should be restricted to 10ml/kgbw. The site should be aseptically prepared and only sterile equipment and fluids used for the infusion. Fluids should be warmed to 39 degrees C . The best site is the inguinal flap, the loose area of skin that adjoins the leg to the body.

Unlike administering fluids IP. I don't think that this particular method of rehydration is considered invasive, a veterinarian only procedure or that it breaks the rules of this forum. My former vet taught me how to give my cat fluids subcutaneously and there is strict legislation in the UK about which procedures are restricted to vets. However, as Pidgey mentioned earlier it is effective for maintenance for birds that are stable or not seriously dehydrated and would not be of much benefit to a seriously dehydrated bird because of the shutown of the peripheral blood vessels...intravenous or intraosseous fluid therapy would be a better choice in those circumstances.

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> I understood that he left the IO cannulation to the vet.


Yes, but he also said he leaves parenterals to the vet, so I understood that to mean any type of injected liquid.

Cynthia, what gauge needle do you use for the SQ? 

The site that was suggested to me was between the shoulder blades, but SQing there is very hard to accomplish without someone else holding the bird for you (SQ fluid administration is so much easier on a cat! And, yes, here also there are many, many people who give their felines SQ fluids at home.). 

The avian vet suggested SQ + Reglan for cases of crop stasis, so that's why I had it in mind.

Thanks!
Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I use a 25g X 5/8" (0.5 x 16mm) needle, that is the size that is supplied with the PMV vaccination kit...the vaccination is injected subQ between the flaps of skin that you pinch together on the neck, which is why I don't consider it an invasive procedure.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> You seem to be focusing on 'rehabbers' specifically, Pidgey.
> I did state crop suctioning should only be performed by a vet or one who has been properly trained, which would most likely be a rehabber.
> 
> We also need to keep in mind, many of our members are *not rehabbers*.
> ...


Taken in context of this thread of which the principal posters have for the most part been rehabbers, then yes, you're right, I have been and am (focusing on rehabbers with that post). And I was referring to the broader history of Pigeon-Talk when I used the word "judgmental", not this thread or your post specifically or in particular.

Within this thread, I've pretty much tried to discourage crop suctioning for the most part, even giving my reasons why as well as providing what has been for me the best alternative. You might say that for my part, I've been trying to steer the readers, whomever they might be, away from doing it so I'm more on your side in this, than the other.

Maybe it'd be better if the rehabbers of this forum had a "virtual" someplace rather more private to go to discuss these things.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I care, Jennifer, but I am livid because I use what appears to be an identical one (I cut it down to size), but a single tube costs me about $20!!!! I wonder if I can import a case?
> 
> http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=8&pnum=A2A5F
> 
> ...




Hi Cynthia, 



These are about $1.70 each here, two blocks away.


If you like, 'PM' me, and I will be happy to obtain for you as many as you may wish...or to obtain a Case of them for you.


Or, better yet, my regular e-mail being 


[email protected]


( pdp-one, not an L ) 


Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynyhia, Maggie, Jennifer, all...




I just see everyone more or less argueing or re-stating 'worries' which I took great care and time to detail and represent in my post, ( possibly so that correct praxis COULD be discussed ) which leads me to feel that no one bothered reading it, but, instead, everyone is just going off on emotionalized 'worries' and reactions about a proceedure and protocal which they have not understood nor bothered to even read about when it was presented.

As for whether just 'anyone' SHOULD do this proceedure?

NO, of course not...

Nor should 'just anyone' be trying to do a great many other things.


Few Vets would bother using a 'safe' device TO 'suction' anyway, and the ones I had seen do it, used a device which in y view WAS "dangerous".


Some days, this one in particular, it just seems like 'Bedlam" here.



If I just explained HOW to avoid a suction 'tip' from either piercing or clogging, and a whole lot else as concern rationalle and safety of this matter, why keep going round and round worrying about it as if there had been no explication or detailed description of HOW to be safe with it?


What is wrong with everyone's minds here so often???


Yeeeeesh..!


Lol...

& 

Oye...



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil, it's a public forum that nobody here "owns". Cindy is concerned that inexperienced folks will read these kinds of posts and figure that they "can do it, too". Different folks here have different beliefs about what is and isn't "going too far" and said beliefs aren't usually something that can be shifted one way or the other with the right language or whatever--they're just too fundamental in each person's mind and being. And right there's the rub.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Taken in context of this thread of which the principal posters have for the most part been rehabbers, then yes, you're right, I have been and am (focusing on rehabbers with that post). And I was referring to the broader history of Pigeon-Talk when I used the word "judgmental", not this thread or your post specifically or in particular.
> 
> Within this thread, I've pretty much tried to discourage crop suctioning for the most part, even giving my reasons why as well as providing what has been for me the best alternative. You might say that for my part, I've been trying to steer the readers, whomever they might be, away from doing it so I'm more on your side in this, than the other.
> 
> ...




Hi Pidgy, 


Some of these over-full Crop 'Crop Stasis' Pigeons, when full of Liquids, will reliably kill themselves in accident unless one does intervene and remove at least the excess fluids effecting their Crop...I have seen it 'gush' up and out like a steady stream with them just standing there, let alone the dangers if they lay down or are fatigued...and hence, between that and other concerns I have about these kinds of situations, I put a lot of thought into what I had written, even if no one read it.

Too, a Crop over-full of stasis Liquids will not be safe to palpate if one wishes to determine whether a foreign object is discoverable.

Hence, getting those Liquids "out" is a pre-requisite for sucessive examination and palpating and whatever else.


These Birds are very dangerous to even touch, let alone handle FOR an examination, let alont to 'bring' to a Vet...and they can start 'gushing' just out of 'nerves' of feeling shy or anxious about being touched.




The recent couple of ones who in their different ways HAD this issue, encouraged me to give this atter a good deal of thought...and to make some progess in my own understandings in order TO help them safely.


And yes, probably, anyone who is pro-actively occupied in aiding the ill or injured Pigeon and who has some experience anyway, should have their own 'section' to discuss things, which others can not have access to or even see the headers of, without Moderator approval and a special sign-in or password.


And then we can be spared all this detracting projection of 'worry' and censure and rebuke and anxiousness about how someone who has no experience would screw it up , even though we have an endless parade of screw ups anyway which are only TOO gladly patronized, with inexperienced people trying to raise Babys and trying to care for the ill or injured, with or without 'Vets' being involved.

Most Vets are complete screw-ups anyway, or they certainly are when it comes to small Birds or Pigeons.Unless one knows enough TO keep an eyeon what they are doing and or to prevent errors and screw ups BY keeping a good eye on the Vet.


I was SO fortunate to find the Vet I did find, finally...but truth is, I am a lot better at this 'suctioning' and perhaps several other things than he is, and I can do it in five minutes, or less, for free, instead of driving two hours round trip, sitting in a waiting room for however long, or being embarassed for having just BEEN there a few days prior, whether I pay full bore or not.


I can not run to my Vet every time a Bird needs something I can do, esspecially which I can do with consideration and safety and decided 'care', or which I can do better even, than my Vet...let alone
'after hours' or Week-ends or Holidays.


Possibly we could just discuss this 'worry' as itself? and see if we can resolve it without it needing to dog our heels so much?



Love..!


To all...regardless...


Phil
l v


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Hey kids, don't try this at home !*



Pidgey said:


> Taken in context of this thread of which the principal posters have for the most part been rehabbers, then yes, you're right, I have been and am (focusing on rehabbers with that post). And I was referring to the broader history of Pigeon-Talk when I used the word "judgmental", not this thread or your post specifically or in particular.
> 
> Within this thread, I've pretty much tried to discourage crop suctioning for the most part, even giving my reasons why as well as providing what has been for me the best alternative. You might say that for my part, I've been trying to steer the readers, whomever they might be, away from doing it so I'm more on your side in this, than the other.
> 
> ...


 Perhaps the best way to address these concerns is to print a disclaimer after each post that these procedures being discussed, are not intended to replace professional medical advice. And perhaps, "Hey kids, don't try this at home"!

We are blessed in having a number of highly trained people who post here regarding these subjects, and I don't think anyone here would suggest that many of the procedures discussed, should be attempted at home by the typical lay person, without professional assistance and advice.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> I just see everyone more or less argueing or re-stating 'worries' which I took great care and time to detail and represent in my post, ( possibly so that correct praxis COULD be discussed )
> * *which leads me to feel that no one bothered reading it*
> 
> Phil
> l v


I took the time to read your post, Phil. I even quoted it. I also disagreed with it & stated the reason why. That's it. 

If you wish to discuss this further, please contact me via email. 
[email protected]

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Warren,





> Perhaps the best way to address these concerns is to print a disclaimer after each post that these procedures being discussed, are not intended to replace professional medical advice. And perhaps, "Hey kids, don't try this at home"!



Yes..!


I understand how we do not wish to be perceived as being cavalier or 'casual' about quite delicate or potentially 'dangerous' if not done correctly of proceedures.


We constantly have new people 'tube feeding', which is no less invasive than 'suctioning' would be, and it is potentially just as 'dangerous' if done wrong or done with wrong impliments or done without sensitivity and consideration for various factors.


About all I can think of to add, is that we all care most and foreost about the health, well being, and quality of care these various Pigeons will receive, and, the truth of it, is that this will vary with the situation, the care-giver, the Vet, and how well any given situation is able to defer correctly to the Bird's safety and needs.


Advocating gentleness, consideration, patience and to seek the best possible quality of whatever is done to or for the Bird, is the primary interest of all of us here, and it is this which we wish to try and impart or help with when even trying to advise a neophyte.


This is not easy..!


There is no guarantee that one will be listened to or understood.


There are perils...


Clearly, anyone new to trying to care for a sick or injured or Baby Pigeon, will be in a difficult position and will need often far more information than can be given, or than they can absorb or comprehend in a timely manner.


I have no solution for this...


Love, 


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I am not going to get in an argument with you but I am neither a neophyte nor a novice in caring for birds and you know this very well. I had not intended for my concern to develop into WWIII. You need to read other people's posts as carefully as you want others to read yours - which I have. Your posts do not, in any way, change my opinion that this is a dangerous procedure in the hands of untrained people.

That said, I don't intend to post on this subject again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I took the time to read your post, Phil. I even quoted it. I also disagreed with it & stated the reason why. That's it.
> 
> If you wish to discuss this further, please contact me via email.
> [email protected]
> ...



Hi Cindy, 


Just to say you disagee with it...leaves out entirely what ever it is you are disagreeing with.


Be specific please - what do you disagree with?


Otherwise, I do not know what you mean or have in mind.



Thanks..!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Just to say you disagee with it...leaves out entirely what ever it is you are disagreeing with.
> 
> Be specific please - what do you disagree with?
> 
> Otherwise, I do not know what you mean or have in mind.


Phil, perhaps if you had taken the time to actually read what Cindy wrote:

_I took the time to read your post, Phil. I even quoted it. *I also disagreed with it & stated the reason why.*_

All you need do now is scroll back to post 42, which is where she originally stated - specifically - what aspects of your post she disagreed with.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Hello All,

I wrote a very considered response to this thread earlier today and when I hit send, it said I was logged out and off it went into the ether. So will try again.

First of all on the positive side, pigeon talk is a stupendous resource for anyone needing help with a found, ill, injured or new pije. Help is available here 24/7 from people who have had a whole lot of experience. Nuff said as I think we all recognize how valuable this forum is.

On the negative side, help is going to be requested by people from many walks of life, some of whom may not know when to recognize something that is beyond their skill level. There is also the fact that at times there is a misunderstanding of directions of how to do something. Or something that we feel is simple and obvious, is not, to a new person. And the most difficult of all is when several people give advice to a new person who doesn't know which advice to take. The bottom line here is that mistakes happen. But I'll tell you, if any of you have ever worked in the medical field, you know our mistake level here is way below that of most medical treatment today. Fortunately the majority of our cases are fairly uncomplicated feeding and growing issues. 

Then there are the really tough cases. There are times someone contacts us with an extremely ill bird who doesn't have access to a vet or an experienced rehabber for one of many reasons. Yes, when we get into these areas, some treatments are dangerous. WHO HERE WANTS TO MAKE THE JUDGEMENT CALL THAT AN EXPERIENCED MEMBER SHOULD NOT GIVE INFORMATION THAT MIGHT SAVE THE BIRD'S LIFE?

This topic of limiting discussion or the dispersal of information comes up every so often. particularly surrounding a complicated treatment. I really feel I have to make a statement here and that is that I DON"T believe in restricting information. Some of our members assist with extremely difficult situations. Too many times I have seen criticism where there should be understanding. We all learn from these difficult cases. There are procedures that I would never tackle myself, unless there was absolutely no other option. But, even if I never have to use them, I feel the discussion that often ensues contributes to my own skill set and makes me a more informed member. So I have to say that I hope dearly that this will remain a forum of open discussion without censorship or censure, where any treatment topic is available even to the least experienced of us This is how we learn. This thread does not make me very hopeful. And I HAVE read all the posts.

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, I am not going to get in an argument with you but I am neither a neophyte nor a novice in caring for birds and you know this very well. I had not intended for my concern to develop into WWIII. You need to read other people's posts as carefully as you want others to read yours - which I have. Your posts do not, in any way, change my opinion that this is a dangerous procedure in the hands of untrained people.
> 
> That said, I don't intend to post on this subject again.




Maggie, 



I never once said anything whatever about "who" should do this, and I absolutely never said that anyone unqualified TO do it SHOULD do it.


It is irrational to KEEP 'dis-agreeing' with me when I have said NOTHING to disagree about.


You and others keep "dis-agreeing" with what you and others are interpolating and projecting INTO this, NOT with 'what' I said.


Big difference...


I never once said this should be done by unqualified people.


Get a clue, "READ" what is actually said...please!!!


I never said "If you see X-Y-Z then go ahead and do it...even if I did say "if one sees X-Y-Z then for me, here is what I would do...and "why".

Big difference.


I gave information, details, insight, and review on how, when, where, why this proceedure CAN be done, and why some parts of it maybe should not be done under some conditions, and what to watch out for IF one is going to do it.


I never said anyone who is UNQUALIFIED could or should do it.


Few Vets would have the quality of understanding or actual deference or care, or have for their own comprehension, the explaination and details and protocols I had posted.

None I ever met did...



Print it out and hand it to YOUR Vet and have THEM do this if it ever comes up for you.

Make sure he or she does not screw it up.



I never said YOU should do it.


I never said anyone should do it.


I do not think 'most' Vets SHOULD do it unless they understand the things I was writing about, and, few would, unless it WAS explained to them.


What I did say, was that it CAN be done...and can be done with these various things being understood.





I wrote about criteria of understanding the perils and rationalle OF the Proceedure, NOT about "who" should do it.


Who should do it???


I would say if someone is "qualified" to do it, then 'they' would be qualified TO do it.


What does 'qualified' mean?

It means they REALLY comprehend, are familiar with and understand AT LEAST as much as I had detailed in my missive on the basis of their own prior experience so that there is nothing new or confusiong to them about understanding it in it's several and various details.


Should an unqualified person do this proceedure in a real eergency, where a consensus of opnion of experienced if distal others says it needs to be done?


Well, if the unqualified person reads and discusses with others who are 'qualified', and reherses and works with the distal experienced others, then "maybe"...'maybe', and it would depend of course on the confidence and wit and care the inexperienced unqualified person has to bring to the task.


Absolutely, if they can bring the Pigeon to a 'qualified' operative, they "should", if they can not, they can not.






Good Grief..!!



I still like you of course!


But Good Grief!!!!


Lol...


Love, 


Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

If anyone wishes to continue discussing this subject, *please start a new thread.*

Cindy

Let me clarify.
If anyone wishes to continue discussing the subject of crop suctioning please start a new thread.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm posting this strictly for informational purposes. After reading the cautions here about crop suctioning, which included the following:



> There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about suctioning a crop. I want to warn members that this is a highly dangerous procedure and should be done by a vet or by people trained by a vet to do this.
> 
> Personally, I feel we need to cease with the encouragement of crop suctioning. This is an extremely dangerous procedure & as Maggie states below, should only be performed by a vet or one who has been properly trained.
> 
> ...


I questioned our (board-certified) avian vet about crop suctioning, and he responded that there was "little risk of trauma if done properly" using either "tube or gavage needle." When I asked him about the "proper" way to do it, the method he described was the same as one would undertake for tube feeding.

Jennifer


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