# How long on Baytril?



## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

I have a pigeon with all the symptoms of paratyphoid (Baby Blu). I had Baby Blu on Amoxicillin for seven days (1ml two times a day) then the Vet put Baby Blu on Baytril (.1ml every 12 hours oral) for 14 days. She has been on Baytril for 11 days now. Baby Blu is 48 days old. 
She has been a very sick bird (head twisted upside down, could not stand or would flip onto her back if she tried to stand) but, now she is showing a little improvement. She can now stand for a few minutes at a time and takes a few steps. 
The question I have is should I take her off the Baytril after 14 days? (When she still has symptoms) I have searched the threads and can’t find the answer. I don’t think most of the pigeons I have read about have been as sick as Baby Blu or have died. I think Baby Blu is going make it, but I want to make sure to take off her medicine at the right time.
Thanks for any help.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you can keep it up for longer than that and I'd certainly wait until the symptoms diminish, that's for sure. Just out of curiosity, can you give more history of the symptoms? Was PMV ruled out?

Pidgey


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

When I got Baby Blu She was around 30 days old. She/he was almost starved to death. The vet did a stool sample, but I don’t think PMV was ruled out. But from what I’ve read I do believe it is paratyphoid. Baby Blu’s sibling had weak legs, and walked with a limp. She/he did very well with the Amoxicillin. She/he seems ok now.
A sick pigeon with a drooping wing was put up with these pigeons about the time they were born. This bird is OK now, but still has a drooping wing. (I think it was or is a carrier.)
I’m sure you can’t tell 100% without the proper test.
Thanks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then, I'd tend to favor the Paratyphoid theory, too, I guess. Can you post pictures of the neurological symptoms?

Pidgey


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

I hope this works, not sure how to attach a picture.


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

Here are two more, Baby Blu looks a lot better in the last one. She just started standing yesterday.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that doesn't look so much like the typical PMV poses. Poor little guy, how much time is he spending like that?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

One of the first pijies I took in had leg difficulties and neck twisting, though
no where near what Baby Blue is displaying in the pictures you've posted, especially the 
ons reminiscent of stargazing. The
drooping wing, problems w/the legs for the other sibling, seem to point to 
Paratyphoid and Baby Blue has some severe CNS displays here. You might
want to ask your vet about ruling out PMV though, or definitively diagnosing for Paratyphoid. If treating this bird for Paratyphoid, I would treat for a month and then re-evaluate whether or not to proceed longer. I would, though, make no doubt about it, also treat this bird w/Itraconaxzole concurrently to make sure that you don't invite any yeast/fungal issues into Baby Blue's life. That would only add insult to injury.

fp


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

Most of the time. I hold her a lot, three or more hours a day. Like I said Baby Blu, has made a big improvement the last two days. I now have my hopes up. I just didn't feel like I should stop the Baytril. 

Thanks


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> One of the first pijies I took in had leg difficulties and neck twisting, though
> no where near what Baby Blue is displaying in the pictures you've posted, especially the
> ons reminiscent of stargazing. The
> drooping wing, problems w/the legs for the other sibling, seem to point to
> ...


I'll call the Vet in the morning.


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

Baby Blu is doing a little better today.
Avian Vet was not in today. It will be Monday. I use the word Avain Vet, but there's not a good bird vet in my area that I'm aware of. (Hickory NC area) 
I looked online for Itraconazole (Sporanox®) looks like I need a prescription. What dosage do you recommend?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, Itraconazole is a prescription medicine, though you can get it w/out
a prescription from medsmex.com.....you would have to wait for it for too
long though so you should see if your vet will give you a prescription for it.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Itraconazole is an excellent medicine but I'll warn you in advance that it is very expensive. As for the dosage, try to take the baby in with you so you can get her weighed and the vet will give you the proper dosage.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you go through a vet or a compounding pharmacy, no doubt it will be more
expensive than if you purchase yourself on line. Here's a link for generic
Itraconazole from medsmex.com:

http://www.medsmex.com/store/search.php?mode=search&page=1

You can get 30 caps of 100mg capsules for $23.95, which isn't too bad. I do have scales, though, which makes it easier for me to meter out dosages. 

At any rate, it's worth asking your vet for this systemic antifungal if your
pij is on an extended course of Baytril. Nystatin won't be as efficient as it is 
a topical medication meaning that contact is requisite....

fp


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

Baby Blu has had a great day! It is unbelievable, standing and walking around most of the day, Baby Blu even flu a few feet. See new picture, don’t look like the same pigeon.
I think she must of have a few prays from the folks that read my post. I just want to say thanks because they were answered! 
The new question, how many more days should I keep her on Baytril? Tomorrow is day 14.
Thanks


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

At least three weeks to clear Baby Blue of the carrier state. Did Baby Blue
only have CNS symptoms w/out diarhea or the Articular form?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hope you haven't been giving Baby Blue any calcium supplements while the
pij has been on Baytril as Baytril is rendered less effective through concurrent
administration of calcium. 

On the other hand, when you are through giving Baby Blue baytril and Baby
Blue is cleared of the carrier state, you may want to consider giving BB
calcium and other supplements that are recommended for birds/conditions
that display CNS (Central Nervous System) symptoms such as PMV.

If you look in the Resource section, Snowbird has a really good sticky on 
pigeons and Calcium. 

fp


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

Yes she had had diarrhea, it was better yesterday and even better today (almost nomal). I’m not sure about the Articular form. Her legs are weak, she is a little wobbly. Wings seem fine. 
I have been feeding Baby Blu kaytee exact hand feeding formula. Oops I just read the ingredients and it does have calcium. What now?


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

I have also been given her Bene-Bac power ever other day. 1/8 teaspoonful


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You can give Benebac everyday (probiotics) between medication times w/Baytril. This should also help w/intestinal problems.

Is she eating on her own? If you need to be hand feeding there 
are other options that could be utilized. You could use human baby food,
or if near a health food store look for a product called Ultimate Meal....it comes
in a powder and can be mixed up like Kaytee. It packs quite a nutriitional
punch.

She may be dehydrated from having diarhea and this may be contributing
to weak leg symptoms. It's good to continue helping her w/feedings if needed
and giving electrolytes.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And, of course, if she's getting visibly better in such a dramatic way, you might do just as well to continue as you are. Looks like her nervous system's coming back online.

Pidgey


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

She has not been able to eat on her on. I mix her food a little on the watery side. (Just a little) Also I have been mixing her food with electrolytes a couple days a week and have been giving her water (3ml) two times a day. 
The last few days she has been trying to eat, but I have not seen her get any seeds down. I have tried fench seed, a dove blend and pigeon seed.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, given the relief of the other symptoms, I'm a'hopin' that things start going real well real fast for this bird. You might end up being quite surprised.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

deanbarr said:


> She has not been able to eat on her on. I mix her food a little on the watery side. (Just a little) Also I have been mixing her food with electrolytes a couple days a week and have been giving her water (3ml) two times a day.
> The last few days she has been trying to eat, but I have not seen her get any seeds down. I have tried fench seed, a dove blend and pigeon seed.


It won't hurt to give her electrolytes everyday, and it will interfere w/the 
absorption of Baytril into the system if used w/calcium supplements so discontinue the Kaytee and use an alternative. If you have a pigeon mix
w/some fairly large seeds, peas, etc., you could always do seed pops 
and continue w/supplemental tubing of water. If you continue Baytril for the
full three weeks to clear the bird of the carrier state, you'd want the bird
to get the maximum benefit of the medicine w/out the interference that
supplemental calcium in the diet is noted at the Baytril site to do. Remember
what they always tell humans, don't stop taking the antibiotic once you start
feeling better, complete the full course of the medicine, lol. Anyway,
hoping the good days for Baby Blue have fewer 'off days' in between  ....

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

deanbarr said:


> I hope this works, not sure how to attach a picture.





Hi deanbarr...



Oye, late to your thread, but...the image on page 1 sure looks like some of my PMV young ones.


Or at least that is what I took it to be...

In August I had a breakout here of an illness, and the samples I had sent to a lab for analysis came back with no signs of pathology other than some hint of something in the Pancreas which is sometimes assocated with PMV.

Nothing was to be seen in the general Necropsy my Vet did.

Thing is, there are no real forthright or practical tests for positive determinations of these things sometimes...just inferences or associatons which suggest...or, which may rule out.


I do not know of any tests to determine if a Bird has Paratyphoid verses PMV


Does anyone else know?


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

deanbarr said:


> She has not been able to eat on her on. I mix her food a little on the watery side. (Just a little) Also I have been mixing her food with electrolytes a couple days a week and have been giving her water (3ml) two times a day.
> The last few days she has been trying to eat, but I have not seen her get any seeds down. I have tried fench seed, a dove blend and pigeon seed.




Hi deanbarr, 


If she will Peck, you can hold her on your lap on a towell, and with one hand, tilt a small deep Seed Bowl full of smaller kinds of Seeds, and, with your other hand, cup your hand over her Head so your fingers touch the little Seed Bowl, and some fingers can even be on her Beak sides to keep her Beak vertival instead of it getting sideways if need be...and that way you limit the excessive Head motions, and or provide alignment for it also...and, she can 'gobble' or close-peck the seeds very effeciently. 

Small Seeds ( Canary Seed, Finch Seed mixes ) are best, and if she soon can do regular size ( whople dries Maple Peas and whole small Corn and so on ) also, then mix them together.


This is what I was having to do with quite a few of mine, but now only one needs me to do it.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I think if you look at the surrounding pieces of informtion, deanbarr felt
that it was Paratyphoid in CNS form as opposed to PMV. There is a veterinarian on the case who also prescribed Baytril as they thought it to be Paratyphoid as well. I believe there was a sibling demonstrating the Articular form. 

This is my understanding, but have a looksee yourself, Phil, think it's there 
in the posts.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, I think if you look at the surrounding pieces of informtion, deanbarr felt
> that it was Paratyphoid in CNS form as opposed to PMV. There is a veterinarian on the case who also prescribed Baytril as they thought it to be Paratyphoid as well. I believe there was a sibling demonstrating the Articular form.
> 
> This is my understanding, but have a looksee yourself, Phil, think it's there
> ...




Hi fp, 


Quite so...


Sure nice to see how the little one is improving...that is really wonderful...


Phil
l v


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

Baby Blu is doing even better today. She hates her cage. As sick as she had been, I had been keeping he in a bowl. Now I must put her in a cage from time to time. While at work I let her run around the office. 
Called a local vet who I think is the best avian vet around, he don’t like using antifungal without signs of yeast/fungal. He ask me to bring a stool sample and my weight chart in on Friday. He told me to keep her on Baytril for 5 more days and keep hand feeding her for 30 more days. (He don’t want her losing any weight)


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

deanbarr said:


> Baby Blu is doing even better today. She hates her cage. As sick as she had been, I had been keeping he in a bowl. Now I must put her in a cage from time to time. While at work I let her run around the office.
> Called a local vet who I think is the best avian vet around, he don’t like using antifungal without signs of yeast/fungal. He ask me to bring a stool sample and my weight chart in on Friday. He told me to keep her on Baytril for 5 more days and keep hand feeding her for 30 more days. (He don’t want her losing any weight)



deanbarr, I'm glad you have an avian vet to help you with Baby Blue. Also
glad that a fecal sample is being collected, this sounds promising in terms of
monitoring.....supporting a sick bird w/augmented feedings and waterings is
very advisable, also advisable is flexing w/the bird's needs. If they start self
feeding and watering before 30 days has arrived, d/c augmented feedings.
If they take longer than expected and require augmented feedings & waterings, then extend this process for longer than 30 days....just a common
sense approach to it.....

fp


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

I’m definitely keeping seed in front of her. Water only when I can keep a close eye on her. She is trying to eat the seeds, almost like playing with then. I hadn’t seen her get any down, but I’m sure she will soon. The water, she puts her head in and plays or trying to bathe, not drinking yet. 
Baby Blu is again, doing better yet. Flying a little, just short flight but flying.


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

*update*

Baby Blu has not improved much this past week. 

(Vet #2, trying to find a better Vet) Conover,NC

I took Baby Blu’s sibling to the Vet Wednesday last week (Duey), Duey had cranker. Baby Blu also had a small spot in her mouth. I treated both pigeons with Ronidazole for six days (today was day six). The Vet also put Duey on Baytril for 14 days. The cranker has cleared up and both pigeons are doing well. I also had Baby Blu’s fecal sample checked for yeast/fungal. The vet say she seen a normal amount of yeast. 

(Vet #3 still looking) Hickory,NC

I took Baby Blu back to the Vet today for a checkup and a fecal sample check. Same results, he said he saw a normal amount of yeast also. 
He told me to keep her on Baytril for one more week. (She has been on Baytril for 21 days now) He thinks she has Chlamydia. After getting home and reading the threads I don’t see why he thinks this. He did say if it was paratyphoid she would have yellow feces. I have not read that either. He said if it was PMV she would not have responded to the Baytril.
He also said her infection may be cleared up, that the problems she has may be permanent damage from the infection.
I’m still worried the she is not over her infection, and afraid she still might die. I would be happy if her neurological problems don’t improve any more if she lives.

I’m taking her back to the Vet next Monday for another fecal sample check.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we had a nestling many years ago that had an awful lot of problems from whatever it was. There were some neurological symptoms that never completely abated. We worked with Chance a lot. Chance had a very difficult time walking but eventually learned to fly and learned to walk after months of therapy. Chance kinda' was like a bird-equivalent to a polio survivor. So, it is possible to have lasting neurological effects but Baby Blu is still young and may overcome them.

Paratyphoid doesn't always cause the yellow to green to neon bluegreen urates. It's sometimes related to the stage of the disease and the dissemination in the body. Sometimes it causes arthritic conditions and leaves the liver more intact. Always hard to say.

Chlamydophila's a funny thing. If the vet truly suspected it, it would be "reportable" because it's zoonotic (causes disease across species barriers and humans are susceptible). Also, the vet would have shifted to Doxycycline (Vibramycin) to treat it. Baytril will stop visible symptoms but won't clear the carrier state. When they get Chlamydophila, they usually get a 45-day treatment with the Doxycycline.

Pidgey


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

No tests were done to prove or disprove, but as I said earlier, I don’t know of any good Avian Vets in my area. Someone had told me of one in Wilkesboro but can’t remember their name. I truly believe Baby Blu has paratyphoid. I have spent over 300 dollars and only thing the Vets have told me that I didn’t know was the results of the fecal sample.
Thanks for the info and encouragement.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It can actually be extremely difficult to prove or disprove many different illnesses. Most of the time, even the vets are going on educated guesses seeing as how tests can be so inconclusive or misleading, especially when you try and keep them within people's budgets. I believe that I once actually countered the worst of a fresh Paratyphoid infection because I found a lot of bacilli in a crop swab with very high motility. They could just as easily have been E. coli, but Baytril did the trick.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

deanbarr said:


> No tests were done to prove or disprove, but as I said earlier, I don’t know of any good Avian Vets in my area. Someone had told me of one in Wilkesboro but can’t remember their name. I truly believe Baby Blu has paratyphoid. I have spent over 300 dollars and only thing the Vets have told me that I didn’t know was the results of the fecal sample.
> Thanks for the info and encouragement.


Paratyphoid has alot of ways of presenting itself to rely only on the color of
the feces....then too, if your baby is already on Baytril, looking for a coloration of the feces may be a moot issue. I'd go four weeks to clear of the carrier state, it's especially good that Baby Blue isn't showing any signs of abnormal fungal growth in the fece tests.

They ( the vets ) can suspect and treat for Chlamydophila/Chlamydia, but
if no tests are taken to prove it, then it's still not "reportable", ie, there needs to be positive lab work for a report to be generated. It also can
get expensive proving conclusively that the bird has the disease.

Neurological symptoms take some time to subside/correct, and there may 
always be some 'vestigial remains' of the illness symptomatically. In time,
w/vitamin and other supplements, you may find that the symptoms are greatly improved.

fp


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

*New update*

Baby Blu is doing better this week. Flying more and eating some seeds on her own.


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

One more guestion. The skin on her breast looks so thin (clear). The Vet did not look at this and I forgot to show him. Could this be the Baytril? Maybe nothing to worry about? I am planning on Sunday being the last day on Baytril.

Thanks for all the help!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, their skin is a bit on the thin side anyhow. Baytril doesn't mess with that, that I've ever heard of. The only caveats out there for the use of Baytril in nestlings is that it might interfere with bone development. There's a controversy on that and in cases of it's the bird's life at stake, it's not an argument. I gave it to Unie at an early age and she's definitely way undersized for her family but we could also blame that on her illness during her formative period, too.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

deanbarr said:


> One more guestion. The skin on her breast looks so thin (clear). The Vet did not look at this and I forgot to show him. Could this be the Baytril? Maybe nothing to worry about? I am planning on Sunday being the last day on Baytril.
> 
> Thanks for all the help!


I've asked Dr. Speer about baby pigeons and Baytril, and he has said that 
there is no indication that baby pigeons have the same response as Beagle
puppies to Baytril regarding bone development. Snowbird asked Dr. Ford who
is also an avian vet and he recieved the same answer that Baytril was safe to
use w/baby pigeons. Dr. Ford raised pigeons as a teenager. Here's a link to a little background on the doctors asked:

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/site/view/96637_Doctors.pml

I believe that I've read here that Reti's doctor has said the same regarding its' safety w/baby pigeons. Of the many babies that I've
treated w/Baytril as babies, they have become adults comparable in size to the other members of their flock, and in some instances, just plain well-sized. I get a fair amount of rescues locally through two separate Vet hospitals in the area in addition to the ones I bring in from flocks that I feed. 

I think Baby Blue will be fine in this regard, and in terms of the skin seeming thin, it
is somewhat in that area under normal circumstances.

fp


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## deanbarr (Feb 20, 2007)

*Update 11-4-07*

Baby Blu is doing good, flying more and even making some good landing. (Usually she will miss her intended landing place, like my shoulder) She is stronger in the last few days. She was on her perch Saturday and Sunday morning, and when I put her in her cage tonight she got back on her perch. (Usually she lies down)
Tomorrow will be her last day on Baytril. Seems like forever. Duey is doing well also.
Again thanks for all the help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update. I'm glad Baby Blu is improving as time (and meds) goes on. 

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the update deanbarr, I'm glad to hear that Baby Blu is feeling better
and you continue to see improvement in her behavior/demeanor.

Don't forget to give her a good strong course of probiotics and vitamins/minerals
once she is completely off Baytril to 'rebuild' her system. And ofcourse, you can
put the pigeon grit back in the cage once off Baytril as well.

fp


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