# Canker and Antibiotics



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Folks,
I have to deal with a lot of canker infected birds. I have a bird at home with it right now. One question I have involves the use of antibiotics with these birds. The first pill that goes down a bird that has canker is Carnidazole. 
Canker is a magnet for all types of bacteria and so I also give an antibiotic. The first tissue that canker breaks through is going to be the mucous membrane and that tissue is a defense against infection in the bird. When the canker breaks up, the mucous membrane is still not healed and I have no idea how long it takes for the body to regenerate it. As long as the mucous memebrane is broken, there is a continuing threat of infection. 
An anitbiotic cannot be given for an indefinite period of time so when is it safe to release a bird back to its flock taking into consideration the state of the mucous membrane?


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## Jeff Hitchlock (Dec 5, 2001)

Hi Fred;
It's a good idea to treat your whole flock,because when one bird in the loft has it,chances are that more will come down with it.It's also easier to put the medication in the water than to catch each bird individually.I've never used an antibiotic when treating for canker and my birds responded well to the canker medication with no losses.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for responding. Jeff, I don't own any pigeons. What I do is try to save as many as I can of feral birds and that means I treat on an individual basis so single pills are used. 
When they go back into the "wild," these birds continue drinking contaminated water and if the mucous membranes are still compromised, they can easily pick up any kind of an infection including canker again.
In a coop facility, it may be easier to control those conditions that open up a bird to infection but that is not the case out there.
Your not giving antibiotics in a case of canker is promising to me. Perhaps they can cure just as well without using an antibiotic. I don't know because I never tried that.
Thanks again.

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## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Dear Fred,
I come to this site to learn from all you pigeon experts. As one already has responded the other experts will likewise respond. I've got pen and paper in hand.
Sincerely,
Nancy


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## cataclsm (Jun 2, 2001)

Pigeons will build up an immunity to any antibiotic if used over a long period of time. Canker is something that responds well to various treatments like the one you indicated (Carnidazole) however its so contagious that and entire flock can come down with it in no time and be wiped out by it, I’ve seen it happen over and over in wild birds. I commend your wanting to help feral birds the way you are but I fear that its in vain in a situation like this one because once you release the bird back into the wild it will become infected all over again.

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Malystryx Lofts
http://www.malystryx.com


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## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Well, like Malstryx, I will go with the fact that the protozoa responsible for canker is so prevelant that it cannot be 100% prevented.

The research of Vasielev and Rustchikov at the Pigeon Center of Nikolayev, Ukrain (1978) indicates that this particular protozoa is likely present in all pigeons. Over a five year study, over 2500 pigeons from 275 lofts were tested and ALL were found to posess this protozoa in their system. Several different strains of the protozoa were identified, named, studied and catalogued. Some were weaker strains that were just present and even when subjected to ideal conditions, they failed to producer canker outbreaks. Some on the other hand were much more virulent, produced the so called "wet canker" and killed pigeons within 2 to 5 days of outbreak.

After their 5 year research, Rustchikov (who later also ID'd the Black Sea variant of Salmonella (a real killer and much worse than Western strains) drew a number of conclusions.

His first conclusion was that this protozoa had been present in pigeons for some great period of time and that it was spread throughout pigeondom primarily through the billing of pairs (cocks will regurgitate a small amount of grain to hens during billing) and that it was also passed onto youngsters through pigeon milk, who in turn also passed it on when they began to breed. When you consider how integral these two activities are to a pigeon's life cycle, one realizes just how quickly this protozoa is spread.

He also drew a conclusion that it was not a wise policy to wipe out the protozoa in a flock through the use of hard antibiotics.
He drew this conclusion based on the fact that often weaker strains of this protozoa actually helped create resistance to much more virulent and deadlier strains and that eliminating the protozoa in a bird's system often actually opened the door up to infection by much nastier strains.

These same conclusions have also been drawn in the West by researchers, but I am citing this one simply because it was the most extensive.

So consequently, while you can cure a canker outbreak, it cannot be 100% prevented and much of this has really to do with conditions. Damp and dark conditions do much to contribute to an outbreak and in addittion, rough feed (ie. cracked or split grains or just outright garbage) often scratches the insides of the throat and mouth enough to create outbreaks. (The widely employed use of Popcorn to feed feral pigeons in parks is likely a great contributor to canker outbreaks in the wild simply because this stuff really tears a bird's throat up and this allows for canker to result).

In addittion, this is often spread to birds of prey, scavanging birds etc. who can also develop canker.

Most of this is definitely a management and strain problem so far as domestically kept pigeons. Personally, I have not had a canker problem since 1985 and that was a single squab from a pair of pigeons I had purchased. After destroying the infected squab (who was far gone and had a cherry tomato sized ball of canker around his trachea at the age of three weeks) and disposing of the stock pair, there was NEVER another problem and I am not an antibiotic nut who medicates for maintenence purposes each year. Fact is, I rarely have any pigeon problems and when I do, it always has to do with me making some stupid mistake like not quarrentining some new birds. My attitude is, if it's not broke, don't try to fix it because then you will break it for sure. I even have to really push myself just to vaccinate against PMV and Salmonella and if I didn't show or buy new breeds, I wouldn't even bother with that.

K.D.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Cataclsm,
We both know that canker is the most common pigeon ailment. I can't prove it but it stands to reason that every wild pigeon has it in the system. They all drink from the same water sources. That is why every bird I pick up gets a pill whether it shows or not. Something triggers the infection to overcome the immunity system. The bird may become run down and give the canker a chance to grow. So, yes the bird can develop canker again. 
That does not mean I will stop treating birds for it. They may get it again and they may not. My goal is to give that bird a second chance.
Canker can be acute and when it is, it comes along with a great deal of mucous output. If it is chronic, it looks dry. But in both situations, the mucous membrane has been damaged leaving the bird open to any kind of infection, not just canker. 
I don't think anyone is going to have an answer about the time it takes for the mucous membrane to heal and begin to again protect the underlying tissues but I was kind of hoping to get some ideas from other people about what their thoughts are on it.

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## Marian (Feb 17, 2001)

Hi Fred,

I give all incoming pigeons and doves a dose of Carnidazole. If they show evidence of trichomonas infection (canker), then I put them on a course of Flagyl (metronidazole) as I have had much better result with this daily treatment, particularly in youngsters.

Unless the bird appears physically ill, or has infection, I don't add antibiotic treatment. 

If the bird is a baby or youngster with trich, and it also needs antibiotics, I also include Nystatin in the course of treatment to prevent secondary fungal infection. 

As to when a bird's membranes are healed, I just do a visual inspection for 3 weeks after treatment is done, to make sure there is no recurrence. I use a pen flashlight and check that the mouth tissues appear as they do in a healthy bird, pink, smooth, without any reddened or otherwise abnormal areas.

Birds all carry the pathogens. It is just when they are in a weakened condition that the pathogens may overcome the bird's immune system.

Marian


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

The problem with this particular bird is worse than previously suspected. The canker tissue is gone and in its place is a cavity in the back of the mouth just below the Choana. 
Ill have to hold this bird until the body fills in the cavity. 

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## constantin (Mar 2, 2001)

Hi Fred,

Could you please give me a call, I found a sick pigeon yesterday and maybe you can take a look at him.
Thanks.

Constantin

PS. Thanks for your call.

[This message has been edited by constantin (edited January 18, 2002).]


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