# Some kind of lacing.. ?



## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

I have got a few with this color now, but I actually don't know what they are genetically or what phenotype that is? The trait is dominant, I've been told. They are nicknamed "Strawberry", but they are not at all like the look of Strawberry made of the Sooty-gene. I saw on Google a quite similar look only with black, called "Spangel", but I did't find any more info about that. I read some older threads in the archive as well, but didn't understand what that Spangle was all about.. 

Attached is a picture with a typical look when young, and one after first molt.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

I'm not very familiar with this look, but I agree it is not the sooty gene. The red in the one pic looks to uniform, and it is lacing the ends of the feather. I don't think sooty does that. The lacing in the adult feather looks like it could be the action of a gene for toy stencil on ash red. Toy stencil is very common in Oreintal Frills. What breed are these birds? Tubits?


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## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

This is a Norsk Petent, quite similar to the Old German Owl. The biggest differences are that their shell is laying more closely to the back of their head, and they have a more upright standing than is the Old German Owl, and somewhat smaller and neater in head and body. 
It has been breed in Norway since early 1800, and one of the teories is that the monks brougth it to their monastery from souther countries. 
Because the standard of the NT and the OGW are that similar, the NT is not a seperate breeding at the shows internationally, but you can bring them as a OGW if you want to. Very few does that though, because they are not the same. In Norway, they are seperated at shows.

This colorpattern has been known at least since 2010 with the breeders of NT if my information is correct, but I don't know how the original pairing was set up. The young one pictured is from a black cock and a rec. red hen showing very little of the pattern, the older one is from a poor quality rec. red cock carrying yellow and a rec.red hen showing very little of the pattern.

Attached is a pic of the hen (to the left) and the cock responsible for the lightest and oldest of the young pictured in my last post. 

Here is a link to the website I found the black Spangle Cherry pigeon 
https://www.olx.com.pk/item/black-spangle-cherry-pigeon-IDUy6dU.html


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

The two birds where I can see the flights in your last picture do not appear to be recessive reds. If you look at the colored secondaries on the red one they definitely faded to ash. I believe that bird is a T-pattern ash red (dominant red). I think the yellow bird showing flights also fades to light gray which would make it ash yellow.

When you put black (spread) on ash red T-pattern birds you will often get splotched up ash red spread, and I believe having one gene for recessive red could be causing the laced look.

The black cherry birds in your link are simply poor quality toy stencil. Cherry is a gene usually seen in racing homers, and the expression is nothing like the look of those birds.

This is the mark of ash red.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Gorgeous birds!


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## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

Thank you Cwebster! 

I see.. did not think of that about the parents, but I'm sure your perfectly right, Chuck. That makes sense with the ash-red. I had to contact Dr. Sell, because I got so curious about this pattern. This is his respond: "The red 'laced' is genetically a Spread Ash. I get such pigeons in my self Pomeranian Eye Crested Highfliers often after crosses with black but select for a uniform mealy Color. In Old German Owls they select for this Kind of lacing. Not a real lacing if you look from near by. the Oriental Frills have another lacing, also genetically. I discussed the Topic in Chapter II of Pigeon Genetics. Strawberry is shown also at Voorburg Cropper, Lucerne Self and other breeds as red or yellow laced."

So he very much confirms what you said


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Skogsdua said:


> Thank you Cwebster!
> 
> I see.. did not think of that about the parents, but I'm sure your perfectly right, Chuck. That makes sense with the ash-red. I had to contact Dr. Sell, because I got so curious about this pattern. This is his respond: "The red 'laced' is genetically a Spread Ash. I get such pigeons in my self Pomeranian Eye Crested Highfliers often after crosses with black but select for a uniform mealy Color. In Old German Owls they select for this Kind of lacing. Not a real lacing if you look from near by. the Oriental Frills have another lacing, also genetically. I discussed the Topic in Chapter II of Pigeon Genetics. Strawberry is shown also at Voorburg Cropper, Lucerne Self and other breeds as red or yellow laced."
> 
> So he very much confirms what you said


Thanks, I am glad to hear that Dr Sell confirmed it. He is the expert.


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## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

Yes
On the other hand, I'm pretty dissapointed that you say the pigeons in my link was of poor quality, I really liked their apperance  hehe
Or, I liked the fact that it was in black. This colorpattern is yet not legal on shows for the Norsk Petent, but I hope we'll change that for the next year. 

About the flights (?) you've headlighted in the picture is a big fault in this breeding, they're supposed to be all white. At least 7 on each side of the outher flights, hopefully 10. This couple gave me 3 and 4 white feathers, so I paired them up with new mates. However, the only couple giving me yellow youngsters. Such a shame.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Skogsdua said:


> Yes
> On the other hand, I'm pretty dissapointed that you say the pigeons in my link was of poor quality, I really liked their apperance  hehe
> 
> About the flights (?) you've headlighted in the picture is a big fault in this breeding, they're supposed to be all white. At least 7 on each side of the outher flights, hopefully 10. This couple gave me 3 and 4 white feathers, so I paired them up with new mates. However, the only couple giving me yellow youngsters. Such a shame.


I like the look too. I have a roller hen that is almost exactly like them with toy stencil. I was making that statement based on what I believe them to be. I think they are Oriental Frills and the toy stencil in Frills should extend up into the wing butts. If the roller hen were good quality, it would extend further into her pattern.

The white flights and tails can make it very hard to pick out the recessive reds from the ash reds especially when you have bronze and one gene for recessive red in the mix.

What sex were your yellow youngsters? You may still get some yellow youngsters from that cock bird on another hen since he is very likely carrying dilute hidden to produce yellow. I suspect most of your yellows were hens.


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## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

Such a beautiful bird! Especially I liked the pattern on the wings and tails  It kind of fulfilled the look. I would love a more whiteish pattern on the wings, too.

I guess all the yellows are hens, the strawberry's are all cocks as far as I know now. In this pairing that is. But, only two of the young yellows are mature enough to show their sex, so I have to wait and see. But 99% sure they are hens.

Yes, I think he could give me yellows with another mate, but no such luck after 2 rounds in the nest with another mate. He has brought me a total of 11 youngsters this year, 3 yellow 2 yellow lacing, 3 strawberries, - and now 3 reds with his new mate. It is the end of the season now, and I think he has earned his holliday. Not sure he agrees on that, though  
I want to pair him to one of his daugthers next year, to get some yellow cocks as well. The yellow color is not very common in this breed, though in the standard, and it is really a very nice and rich color he passes on. I was stunned the first time I realized he had the dilute-gene and even though the youngsters have their faults in their flights, (he has 7/7, and gave me one young yellow with 8/8) I can pair them up later with cocks with more white flights to increase the luck  Right now I just need some more yellows to breed with.


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## Skogsdua (Apr 15, 2016)

I had to attach some pictures as well, taken about a week ago.. Both in the molt, though.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Sounds like you have a good plan. 

I really like the yellows too. I have it in a few of the homers and I have about four roller cock birds that carry it, but so far none of them have given me a yellow hen.


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## Indigobob1 (Jul 3, 2016)

Chuck,

Your roller hen and the black spangle cherries are frill stencil. They may also be toy stencil or part thereof of the Ts complex. The laced flights and tail are a clear indication of frill stencil.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Indigobob1 said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Your roller hen and the black spangle cherries are frill stencil. They may also be toy stencil or part thereof of the Ts complex. The laced flights and tail are a clear indication of frill stencil.



Thanks Bob,

After you posted this I seem to remember reading that the lacing and spots in the tail are Frill stencil indicators. Does Frill stencil also affect the pattern on the shield? I seem to remember that toy stencil did not affect the tail. Is that correct? I have seen a number of Frills without the stenciling in the tail, but I believe those were dominant opals.


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## Indigobob1 (Jul 3, 2016)

Chuck K said:


> Thanks Bob,
> 
> After you posted this I seem to remember reading that the lacing and spots in the tail are Frill stencil indicators. Does Frill stencil also affect the pattern on the shield? I seem to remember that toy stencil did not affect the tail. Is that correct? I have seen a number of Frills without the stenciling in the tail, but I believe those were dominant opals.


Hello Chuck,

Patterned frill stencil have white spots in the tail and flight tips, bars or chequering is pinkish bronze. Toy stencil combined with frill stencil will produce white bars and cheqs. Toy stencil doesn't affect the tail, although some toy stencil patterns do have the white tips on flight feathers. This white spotting on the flights of toy stencils is expressed on spread, whereas frill stencil with spread produces laced flights and tails, like your hen. Toy stencil is also combined with the spread frill stencil to increase/improve the lacing over the entire bird; however not all "laced" frill stencils are combinations and it is possible to improve lacing through selection. Lacing also increases slightly as the bird ages. Does your hen perform? She's a beautiful-looking hen.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Indigobob1 said:


> Hello Chuck,
> 
> Patterned frill stencil have white spots in the tail and flight tips, bars or chequering is pinkish bronze. Toy stencil combined with frill stencil will produce white bars and cheqs. Toy stencil doesn't affect the tail, although some toy stencil patterns do have the white tips on flight feathers. This white spotting on the flights of toy stencils is expressed on spread, whereas frill stencil with spread produces laced flights and tails, like your hen. Toy stencil is also combined with the spread frill stencil to increase/improve the lacing over the entire bird; however not all "laced" frill stencils are combinations and it is possible to improve lacing through selection. Lacing also increases slightly as the bird ages. Does your hen perform? She's a beautiful-looking hen.


Bob, Thanks for the information. I need to copy it down. I have never flown the lace hen. I suspect she was someone's project bird so I doubt she rolls in correct form if she rolls at all. I have seen a number of other stenciled 'rollers' being passed off as Birminghams that still retained the remnant of the OF head and beak. Conformation wise this hen is the best I have found. I can use her to move the stencil along to some good spinning, good type birds. She is a little large and not quite where I would want her to be if I had bred her which is probably why I found her at the feed store.


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