# Emerald dove hen-swollen beak-pox?



## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

dam. last week i got a young pair of emerald doves from a national trust aviary near London uk. the cock was bred late last year and the hen summer this year. when i got them home i noticed a small scab on the wattle of the hen, and put it down to damage during transport as they dont handle well and can be flighty (however they are lovely and placid int he aviary). All of a sudden today i noticed her bottom beak is swollen in two main places, underneath and near where the beak meets the feathers. one side seems like a small smooth lump is forming, and my instinct is telling me its avian pox or pocks. there are no scabs, her lower beak just seams enlarged. I know enough about pigeons to know to isolate her now- however all my racers/tumblers have been vaccinated so i have never actually had experience treating it. I would like to know what i can do to give her the best chances, not only are they stunning birds- but they are expensive! and i dont want to lose her. am i right in thinking pox goes hand in hand with canker? therefore the 1st port of call should be treating for that? i have fed them redband conditioning seeds, they have minerals in their water...i pretty much have left them alone to settle in, but now i want to know what i should treat them for and in what order- or will this mess with their immunity? any help greatly appreciated.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

hard to give a guess without a picture. If you went to expense to get the birds, then a bit more for a vet to give councel/exam would be a good choice.


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## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

thanks for the quick response. I'm 99% certain its pox,as i am familiar with everything else- the doves were actually given to me as the place had bred too many, i made a donation to a charity they support, but yes-i think maybe the vets is in order, even though they cost an arm and a leg here....also its dark here now, i will try and get a picture in the morning.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sounds good... if it is pox it just has to run it's course with supportive care.


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## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> sounds good... if it is pox it just has to run it's course with supportive care.


hahaha you just summed up my whole ramble in one sentence!!!! im wondering other than the obvious-warmth-cleanliness-vitamins- whats the best supportive care in terms of treatments to stop any secondary infection getting hold?


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## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

any more advice? cheers,


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Wodin,

OMG Emerald doves- so beautiful! Those are native to Australia, where I live. There is an enormous public aviary I visit on weekends with Emeralds and other native Australian doves in it, along with nests and babies The emerald doves are so friendly and at ease around people- nice purchase!

Regarding pox, its hair raising to see it in your loft but it went through mine this year and it was over very quickly. Two birds got some pox blisters on the cere and on the feet, and they were gone within a month. I didn't medicate, I just paid a bit of extra attention to reducing stress and loft hygiene . Once its over they tend to never to get it again.

In the wild pigeons that got pox, most survived it as well so long as they got food every day.

PS. Emerald doves eat fruit don't they? I'm not sure how that complicates things or what additional diseases they may be prone to getting due to their diet. A local wildlife carer told me frugivores are bit more prone to fungal infections.


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## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

i would love these birds to be native in the uk! they are stunning! i give them the same small seed diet the zoo gave them, and supplement it with plenty of greens/veg/fruit. its behavior and apatite is fine. i am worried though! when you say they were gone within a month do you mean they died?
my worry is that its winter here, although it amazes me that they are from Australia but can survive British winters i am contemplating bringing her in. the downside of that is the stress caused from being confined/away from her mate and surrounded by alien things!!!!
my gut tells me to just keep a close eye, let it run its course and treat for canker/coci/worms as a precaution.
ps i have only has them a week and they are so friendly and nice to see floating around the aviary like shining butterflies! BUT i did have a pair of australian crested pigeons some years ago and they totally won me over. amazing birds.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Wodin,

Oh so sorry- no my birds were all perfectly fine. The Pox blisters were gone in a month, not the birds I didn't bother separating them because by the time you see pox blisters, the virus has been in the loft for 2 weeks already. So everyone got exposed, but only two males showed any blisters. Droppings in the loft were wet on and off, but thats about all. 

I suppose if you gave probiotics that would help a lot with preventing secondary bacterial infections, which can happen when the immune system is busy fighting a virus.

PS. You're so right about Emeralds looking like shining butterflies. I would love to live with some of them, if I ever have the space.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I had to look up a picture of Emerald Doves -- wow, they are just beautiful! 

Australia gets the best of the best in terms of native pigeons, I think ... I can't even believe some of the colors!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, you should separate them as pox is very contagious. And you are also right in that often pox and canker can go hand in hand. Anything that brings on stress can cause a canker outbreak. If it makes you feel better, then separate the hen and her mate together, as he would have already been quite exposed. If it were me, I would go ahead and treat for canker, just to knock it down now.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree...pox is very contagious. I would separate the couple, from the others, until the pox has cleared. It would be a nightmare if you other birds started coming down with the virus.Pox and canker do go hand in hand and so treating them for canker now would be a wise thing to do. I would hold off and worming and cocci treatment for the time being.
They really lovely birds.


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## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

thanks for the reassurance. the treatment is in the water as of this morning, just as back up! they are lucky because they have a small loft and flight aviary all to themselves so it makes quarantine much easier, and keeping an eye on their general health/droppings/behavior simpler too. I do have some fancy pigeon breeds in a different loft- while i am aware of how contagious it is i am careful not to go in the emerald dove loft unless i have to, and always after i have seen to my other birds. I'm sure they will be fine-even though today her beak is much more lumpy, now i am over the initial shock of it i can see (for now) it is not obstructing her breathing/eating or sight, and i have seen much worse cases online, and even at bird auctions! so fingers crossed!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Wodin,

I got tears in my eyes to see my pigeons with pox blisters, it was really frightening going through it. But now I've seen dozens of birds with pox ,and pox with canker, recover from it, and I'm more chilled out about the illness. In the wild birds, one or two had the blisters covering a whole half of the head and forcing the beak open. But those birds got over it and still eat my place every day.

One thing I am grateful for is pox is a Virus you vaccinate against only once, you don't need to do every year like with PMV. So having pox go through the loft is a bit like a vaccination. Not ideal but it gives the birds the antibodies they need to protect against pox later in life.

PS. What treatment did you put in the water?


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## Wodin (Nov 5, 2012)

Yeah im chilling out about it now lol its just got to run it course i suppose. I got some cankex from he local pet store, i am more familiar with harkers pigeon products, but they are more expensive, plus the harkex seems to be a mix of natural plant oils etc, so i assumed it would be 'kinder' tot he little birds and better as a prevention rather than a cure, as they don't actually have it yet!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pox going through your loft or aviary is nothing like a vaccination. With a vaccination, the birds won't get pox. Without it, they can be so covered with the pox lesions that they can't even see to eat or drink. And if they get it so bad in their beak that they cannot close the beak or use it properly, they will starve to death. This disease should not be taken lightly, and any birds with Pox should be segregated. Can you even imagine having to hand feed a loftful of birds because they will die without supportive care, like hand feeding? We have had a number of members here who went through a lot with even just one bird.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

[/QUOTE]

Poor squab..It's full of pox and has splayed legs...


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## Dove Lady (Apr 15, 2011)

I had pox this year at my loft.. 10 babies and no adults.. ALL pulled through, though 3 had it really really bad on the face. 2 got pox at about 3-4 weeks (nest mates) I had to bring one home, as the pox was on the tendons of the hock and he could only walk a bit like a baby, but mosty using his wings the other got it on 1 eyelid at the front.. it took the longest to get better ( i think cuz they were so little when they got it) .....the worst was Bean! 

Once I got Bean in good shape (very slow to develop, and lived with me in the house) I returned him to the loft... 3 -5 days later he started with pox. A canker like leasion started on the right side under the tongue, but it grew alot DAILY. (reg canker dosn't grow that fast) He's a tough guy and never even showed he was sick the whole time... just looking at me like.. why the h*ll am I here??? I liked the house!!

I hope everyone notes that the above baby has lumps even in feathered areas... much of the info out there says, the unfeathered areas are affected "feet, face, legs...ect" but it grows ANYWHERE it wants! mine got it at the base of flight feather shafts, making flight hard and even stretching wings, painful.

support with Vit B complex, and vits A&E.

If you can get the german "Anti Gelb" (trying to remember the manufacturer) it can ease any breathing issues as well as knock out canker.

don't worry... it just takes 4-8 weeks and alot of love


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

There are two forms of the pox, of course most of you know that but I thought it worth mentioning so as to keep the pox fear-mongering in context.

The internal version causes the external pox lesions to rapidly grow out of control all over the body, and continue to worsen. You'll sometimes see respiratory signs and/or growths inside the vent and mouth. And sometimes you won't see the internal pox at all, but the pox blisters on the outside of the bird keep multiplying and the condition of the bird deteriorates. This form is deadly, but also a good deal less common.

The external (skin version) is regarded as quite a lot less serious and normally heals up within a couple of months. In my experiences, these birds get only a few pox blisters, then they blacken and fall off. Most pigeon pox is the external version.

I think the time to worry is when you see the blisters multiplying quickly and the condition of the bird deteriorating.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't consider mentioning how contagious pox is, and saying that any bird showing signs of Pox must be separated from the others, to be fear mongering. It is a serious disease, and many people here have struggled with pulling a bird through it, as it can easily and often make a bird unable to eat or drink on his own. So just imagine leaving him in a loft with others, and having many of them come down with it. How horrible and difficult that would be to deal with. Also, not very responsible on the part of the keeper to put the other birds in jeopardy of catching it. And foolish. And to suggest that somebody else do that is just unimaginable.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3;712369[B said:


> ]I don't consider mentioning how contagious pox is, and saying that any bird showing signs of Pox must be separated from the others, to be fear mongering. It is a serious disease, and many people here have struggled with pulling a bird through it, as it can easily and often make a bird unable to eat or drink on his own.[/B] So just imagine leaving him in a loft with others, and having many of them come down with it. How horrible and difficult that would be to deal with. Also, not very responsible on the part of the keeper to put the other birds in jeopardy of catching it. And foolish. And to suggest that somebody else do that is just unimaginable.



I agree.
Pox can be very debilitating, lengthy recovery process, horrible for a bird to go through.... horrible and helpless for a keeper to experience too. I can't understand why anyone, with pox in the loft, would risk contamination and not separate infected birds.
If one knew for sure that infected birds might get just one little pox and that be the extent of the virus...that one be one thing, but I can't begin to count the number of times members here have struggled with just one bird.It's not unusual at all for a bird have pox over the eyes and beak, making eating impossible.
Again, I can't imagine why one would chose that possibility, with a loft of birds, when pox could be so easily prevented.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Again, I can't imagine why one would chose that possibility, with a loft of birds, when pox could be so easily prevented.


I would think in this case, where there are considerable numbers of birds, the main issue is not having hospital cages for each bird, where they can live in isolation for the three months it takes to heal. 

Secondly, by the time the pox blisters show, the pox infection has been active in the loft for over two weeks. So most will have it anyway. And then you are faced with first problem,, of finding hospital cages for each bird to stay for three months. Its just not practical.

You guys must see really bad infections. I get pox in the feral pigeons every year, and its very rare to see bad cases, and the bad cases usually heal up just fine with regular food and clean water. Unless on the rare occasion, its internal.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hard to understand your stance that pox isn't so bad, and the sick birds don't need to be isolated from the others, as these are examples of some of your past posts on the same issue:

*BELLA'S POSTS*

I understand that pox in wild birds is incurable, and highly contagious. If it becomes internal, the death from it is slow and very painful
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f112/pox-outbreak-wild-bird-feeder-hygeine-advice-needed-46591.html

_The research I did personally during the year while I was dealing with a pox outbreak revealed that Pox is spread via feather dander, sharing waterers/feeders, exchanging saliva, the pox pimples themselves (which are heavily infested with the virus), & blood transfer via mosquitoes (not sure about pigeon flies). I've had birds that were isolated indoors away from insects like mosquitoes , and they still spread the virus to other pigeons indoors, *so I think its best to just isolate birds with pox. Its very contagious.*

The pox lesions are especially infectious, you have to be careful about spreading the virus via handling the lesions and accidently touching another part of the bird or something they might come in contact with.

I would keep the infected pigeons away form other species of birds too. Not all species of birds can fend off pox like Pigeons do -some can't fend it off very well at all and mortality is very high.
Reply With Quote
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-pox-62989.html_


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Hard to understand your stance that pox isn't so bad, and the sick birds don't need to be isolated from the others, as these are examples of some of your past posts on the same issue:
> 
> *BELLA'S POSTS*
> 
> ...


Exactly ...every bird that is visibly infected, needs to be removed from the population until they have healed. The odds of every bird becoming infected become greater if infected birds are not removed.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Lol, Jay that was a big effort; You must feel very passionate about discrediting me (again). Lol, how lame & mean spirited.

I think I explained my opinions very well, and I'm sorry that you still don't understand. 

Let me simplify it for you: My advice generally reflects the form of pox the bird seems to have (external or internal), the stage of the illness, how sick the bird has become from starvation and co-infections, and whether we have loft outbreak or single bird picked up off the street. Same with how I advise administering meds- I generally believe in individual dosing. But when you have dozens or hundreds of birds, this requires a different approach for most people.

-To my knowledge, External pox is far more common & less serious form of pox, and self limiting according to my personal experiences, as well as literature I've read. 

-Loft management of external pox is different to managing pox in a newly picked up rescued feral pigeon with advanced illness. I will advise according the situation.

- Isolating dozens or hundreds of birds individually with the minor form of pox I feel is impractical advice, and may significantly add to the stress the birds are under. What you're really hoping for is a quick recovery without hitch, through good care and stress reduction.

-I do suggest isolating infected feral pigeons with advanced pox infections. I do suggest keeping infected pigeons out of a non-infected loft. Advanced illness is a visibly ill bird with more than a few pox blisters...minor is few blisters around the feet and beak and eyes. 

-Minor infections in otherwise well birds (such as this case) in my own experiences usually recover without problems, so long as the bird is given food and water, and stress is kept low.

-Advanced cases (like in your photos) are extremely difficult to save. Good on you if you accomplished that, its hard work and stressful for you as a carer.


This is all of course my own opinion, based on my personal experiences and reading. I rescue birds as a daily occupation, and I'm here to share personal experiences with other people like me. Your weird obsession with discrediting me is really pathetic Jay.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Lol, Jay that was a big effort; You must feel very passionate about discrediting me (again). Lol, how lame & mean spirited.
> 
> First of all, you were the one who said that it was fear mongering, by posting the pictures of actual cases of pox. I wasn't fear mongering. Just being a realist, and showing the realities of pox. Your past posts are what discredits you, not anything I have said. I don't try to discredit you or anyone else. Although you seem to take it that way anytime we disagree.
> 
> ...


....................................................................................................


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sorry I called it fearmongering Jay. I can see why that upset you, that was stupid of me, and unkind.

I'm a bit stressed out about the PMV virus coming, and doing these vaccinations for the first time. I guess its just made my fuse short 

Can we just try to be friends? I respect & value what you do.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I'm sorry I called it fearmongering Jay. I can see why that upset you, that was stupid of me, and unkind.
> 
> I'm a bit stressed out about the PMV virus coming, and doing these vaccinations for the first time. I guess its just made my fuse short
> 
> Can we just try to be friends? I respect & value what you do.



Absolutely we can Bella.


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