# Crippled, please help!



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

So these two 1 month old nest mates about to get wean in a week but somehow this morning when i went to feed my birds, i found one of the nest mate on the ground and somehow both its legs are cripple. Yes it must have falling off its nest 2 feet off the ground last night. Last night he was normal. Now, it cannot walk at all. Both the feet seem completely paralyzed. Though, it looks healthy and its pretty strong as its struggling when i picked him up. 

So can someone help explain whats going on. Can it be a disease? Paratyphoid? Salmonella? 

I have the med but i want to make sure before i give it to him.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Since he fell he might have an injury, to the spine or legs. Can you check for any breaks in the legs. 
Of course a vet and some x-rays are in order here to have a definitive diagnosis.
In any case, put the baby in a small container, keep him well fed and hydrated and watch him. 
What makes you think it is a disease?

Reti


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you sure the legs were normal yesterday? Is it possible that he was splayed, and that is why he fell? Had you taken him out of the box and checked him over prior to this?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I doubt that a 2 foot fall would have given a month old pigeon such an injury, and it's unlikely that he would have fallen. They are usually starting to fly at that age.
That is why it is so important to handle your youngsters and check them over as they grow. Anything like that found right away is much easier to treat then when found later on. And they will also get more used to being handled.

Can you post a picture of the bird?


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Are you sure the legs were normal yesterday? Is it possible that he was splayed, and that is why he fell? Had you taken him out of the box and checked him over prior to this?


No, he was normal like his nest mate. Both had start eating on their own. Just this morning he was unable to walk.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post a picture?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

One month old, jumped and splayed the legs. I had this situation. The legs will not normally look like they are splayed. But they are from the hip.

Make a wrap around the legs, above the ankle. Not too tight. It will get healed in 1 week; at least mine it did in 5 days. Make sure pigeon eats. If not you will have to feed defrosted peas and you can also give seeds..all that handfeeding.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Dima said:


> One month old, jumped and splayed the legs. I had this situation. The legs will not normally look like they are splayed. But they are from the hip.
> 
> Make a wrap around the legs, above the ankle. Not too tight. It will get healed in 1 week; at least mine it did in 5 days. Make sure pigeon eats. If not you will have to feed defrosted peas and you can also give seeds..all that handfeeding.


i think you may be right. It does feel like spray leg but how can it be. Its nest mate is perfectly normal. 

I hope you are right that it must be spray leg from injury. Its leg are totally dead. i hope him will heal soon. 

ill post pic soon.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Can you post a picture?


here are the pic i took minuets ago.











these toes feels like malfunctioning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well it isn't splayed leg. Thanks for the pic. I had Charis check out the picture, and we both feel that it's cause by a vitamin B2 deficiency. Do you give your birds vitamins? You can buy one of these. The first one looks good. I would order some. asap.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Supplem...us-Aminos-&-B-dsh-vits,-liquid/Categories.bok


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just to add, your birds need to be given a good vitamin with all the needed vitamins in it. And when they feed their babies, the babies will get them from the parents.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Just to add, your birds need to be given a good vitamin with all the needed vitamins in it. And when they feed their babies, the babies will get them from the parents.



humm..I dont believe it cause for lack of vitamins. I supply all my other birds and the parents the Dr Pigeons Ultimate Elixir product 2x per week and i give regular mix feed for the past few months. Mixed feed of Corn, brown and white peas, white and red milo, sunflower, wheat and saffron. 

I have weaned multiple babies in the past and this is the first time i experience this. Pulse its nestmate is very normal. 

I believe Dima may be right. It must fell off during the dark and injured its legs. But you and chris may be correct too, that maybe due to the lack of vitamin may defected him.

thanks. much appreciated to all.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I would still somehow if not warpping his legs, at least make a donut towel and place him in the middle of it. My first baby, jumped and couldn't walk. Of course that defficiency of Ca & d3 was one of the issues; it seems that mine was from the hip "broken" He was trying to use one leg, but because the other hip was damaged he couldn't walk or stand.
I gave him by mouth Calcium ( he's the baby from my Avatar)

That bowl in the pic is perfect to put the donut towel and place the pigeon in it. But make sure you cover the bottom; those holes are no safe.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Interesting that I can't find anywhere the list of ingredients in Dr Pigeons Ultimate Elixir .
Does you bottle have a list with the percentage of each?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

sev3ns0uls said:


> humm..I dont believe it cause for lack of vitamins. I supply all my other birds and the parents the Dr Pigeons Ultimate Elixir product 2x per week and i give regular mix feed for the past few months. Mixed feed of Corn, brown and white peas, white and red milo, sunflower, wheat and saffron.
> 
> I have weaned multiple babies in the past and this is the first time i experience this. Pulse its nestmate is very normal.
> 
> ...



I know that product has 11 vitamins in it, but does it contain vit. B2, or Riboflavin?


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## alvinoguerra (Jul 14, 2012)

get a sponge cut two holes about the space of a normal bird a put his legs threw them so it can fix and it wont hurt the bird but make shur the spong is soft


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> I know that product has 11 vitamins in it, but does it contain vit. B2, or Riboflavin?


just checked and yes it does contain b1, b2, b3, b5, b6 and b12.

okay, about the poo. His dropping are very green. not lime or dark green. just green. 
also It soo difficult now that i have to clean him up every time he drop.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Can you post a pic of the droppings? 

Ultimate Elixir is a great vitamin and mineral supplement -- very complete. 

I'm also suspecting some kind of injury, perhaps -- a vitamin deficiency doesn't seem like it would cause a sudden lack of function -- but an injury could, and so could an illness. 

Any other symptoms at all (clicking when breathing, loose droppings, twitching, lack of appetite, drinking more or less than usual, etc.) ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm still not sure that this was sudden. Could easily have gone unnoticed. And a month old pigeon falling 2 feet to the floor shouldn't have that result either. At one month old, they are starting to fly and so would have flapped his wings. I've never heard of an illness that would cause the toes to be crooked or curled like that. What illnesses are you referring to. Always willing to learn.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You may well be right, Jay -- I agree that a two foot fall seems unlikely to cause much of an injury at all, and particularly not one severe enough to paralyze the legs -- but freaky accidents can happen. 

In terms of illnesses, I'm thinking of E Coli and Paratyphoid most specifically, which can cause sudden paralysis and spasticity in the legs ... sometimes the legs and feet spasm up and look pretty bizarre (curled, crooked, etc), or go completely limp. Other bacterial infections can get into the central nervous system, too, but those are the most likely culprits. 

Also, anything that causes liver/kidney swelling or even severe enteritis can put pressure on the nerve pathways to the legs, and can cause a temporary leg paralysis (much the same as you see with egg binding). Even severe coccidiosis can cause leg issues if the swelling is bad enough.

I'm working from the assumption that this was a sudden onset -- but if it was an unnoticed gradual onset, then a nutritional issue seems a more likely cause.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For them to have E Coli or Salmonella, I would think that they would have possibly died before or within a few days of hatching, or at least would have shown signs of sickness before now, and only the feet. Also, I would think that some sickness would have been noticed in the loft.
Easy enough to check for those things in a poop sample.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Clostridium can cause the loos of the use of the legs but I think you would be seeing the same symptom in other birds. It seems like a classic vitamin deficiency to me and if he had been born in my loft and saw that symptom, I would be treating for vitamin deficiency...won't hurt and you could see results very quickly.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It would be somewhat unusual for Salmonella or E Coli to show up this way -- usually if there's paralysis, there are other symptoms too -- and others show up sick around the same time.

Maybe we'll get some more information and have more to work with.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Jay, Charis -- how are you determining vitamin B2, specifically, as a likely deficiency? I'd love to learn more about how the specific nutritional deficiencies present symptomatically, so if there's a good reference you could point me toward, that would be most appreciated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here are a few interesting links.

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/217/vitamin-b2-deficiency

http://www.ca.uky.edu/smallflocks/Nutrient_deficiencies.html

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou..._poultry/vitamin_deficiencies_in_poultry.html


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you, Jay!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> I'm still not sure that this was sudden. Could easily have gone unnoticed. And a month old pigeon falling 2 feet to the floor shouldn't have that result either. At one month old, they are starting to fly and so would have flapped his wings. I've never heard of an illness that would cause the toes to be crooked or curled like that. What illnesses are you referring to. Always willing to learn.


If the floor was tile, as i had, or slippery then yes, it is an injury.
But indeed, the curled toes shows also deficiency in Vit.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dima said:


> If the floor was tile, as i had, or slippery then yes, it is an injury.
> But indeed, the curled toes shows also deficiency in Vit.


Dima......the bird is a month old. The nest box is 2 feet up.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Jay, those links were really helpful -- much appreciated. I bookmarked the second and third ones on my computer .... and yes, l can definitely see why you might think a B2 deficiency. 

What, specifically, would lead to this, in terms of the parents' diet?


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Can you post a pic of the droppings?
> 
> Ultimate Elixir is a great vitamin and mineral supplement -- very complete.
> 
> ...


yes, he making those clicking noise. He is having a hard time breathing so every time after i fed him, he would open his beak and took in a gulp of air and do it continuously. 

Also i noticed that the the feed i fed him this morning is still no gone yet. Its 10pm already. 

Now, i dont know. It could be a sickness...paratyphoid..

Should i go head and give it the med?

well about the dropping. Its slimmy regular green.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

What med do you have for paratyphoid? 

Yes, if it were my bird, I would go ahead and medicate at this point. With the respiratory distress and the leg problems, I wouldn't wait, personally. I'd also put it on supplemental heat -- like a heating pad set on low, and covered with a soft cloth.

Are you hand feeding the bird, or just putting food out for it? If it isn't eating, hand feeding might be a good idea. Is the crop emptying? Is it drinking on its own?

If this is Salmonella, or another bacterial infection, the bird would have picked it up in the loft or from the parents, so disinfecting the loft and treating the flock would be a good idea. If you get the bird on meds and it improves, you'll have a much better idea if a bacterial infection is the problem. 

Do its droppings have a smell to them? How about the bird itself ... any smell from the mouth area?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

sev3ns0uls said:


> yes, he making those clicking noise. He is having a hard time breathing so every time after i fed him, he would open his beak and took in a gulp of air and do it continuously.
> 
> Also i noticed that the the feed i fed him this morning is still no gone yet. Its 10pm already.
> 
> ...



Have you brought him in and separated him and put him on heat? 
If he is still in the loft, could the parents not be feeding him? 
That could be why he hasn't eaten the seed.
Are you sure that clicking sound is not just the warning click of a youngster that isn't used to being handled? They will do that if you put your hand in the box to warn you to stay away.
You said he had breathing problems after you fed him. How did you feed him, and what?
Can you post a picture of the droppings? 
It would be normal that he would get a dirty bottom from his droppings if he doesn't stand.
Why do you think it is Paratyphoid? Have you had a problem with that in the loft recently?
Hard to diagnose a problem, and decide what meds should be given when it is a bit unclear of what is going on with this guy. 
It would be better to separate him in a cage inside where it is warm, and put him on a heating pad set on LOW, with a towel on it. Then place the bird on it. This way you can monitor the droppings, and the amount of food and water he takes, and if the crop is even emptying.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Have you brought him in and separated him and put him on heat?
> If he is still in the loft, could the parents not be feeding him?
> That could be why he hasn't eaten the seed.
> Are you sure that clicking sound is not just the warning click of a youngster that isn't used to being handled? They will do that if you put your hand in the box to warn you to stay away.
> ...


yes i took him inside my house 3 days ago when i found him on the floor. I figure the parents wont able to feed him the way he is. Yes i been hand feeding him these past few days with regular mix feed. I did what Dima said. I rapped a towel like a donut shape in sit him in. Somehow his crop from yesterday is not emptying.
I have all meds in hand and this is the med that i recently give it to him. He dont drink alot though. 
Amoxicillin.
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/paratyphoid/1311-foys-amoxicillin powder. 

His is not doing this squeaking noise anymore but his nestmate is still squeaking. 


ill post the droppring later.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> What med do you have for paratyphoid?
> 
> Yes, if it were my bird, I would go ahead and medicate at this point. With the respiratory distress and the leg problems, I wouldn't wait, personally. I'd also put it on supplemental heat -- like a heating pad set on low, and covered with a soft cloth.
> 
> ...


yes i took him in and been handing feeding him. No his drop dont smell. Its smell normally and he dont have smelly breath. i give him Amoxicillin.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

this is his dropping.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he is eating seed but not drinking, then his crop is going to have a hard time passing the seed. Also, you can't medicate a sick bird in his water dish. That is for flock medicating when you have to do that. If he isn't drinking enough, then he isn't getting the med. Although you don't even know that he needs this med. 
You can feed him frozen peas that have been defrosted and warmed under warm running water. Warm, not hot. This would also give him some moisture. You can give him maybe 40 to 50 each feeding, and feed again only after his crop empties. This would probably be 3 times a day. Have you dipped his beak into the water? Did he know how to drink before this? Can you feed him a bit of warmed applesauce with an eye dropper? This may help the crop to move. He must be drinking some as there is white in his droppings.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

humm could it be that him my have sour crop. The feed i gave him yesterday hasnt deplete yet.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't be feeding him seed if he isn't drinking. Keep dipping the beak into a small crock of water and get him to drink. If he isn't drinking, the seed will just pack up in his crop. You haven't answered me about was he drinking on his own before now.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Jay is right about this -- he needs water to digest his seeds. See if you can get him to drink -- if not, you are going to have to syringe some water into him, a tiny bit at a time. Much better if he can drink it on his own, though... syringing fluids can be dangerous. 

As Jay said, he must be drinking some, because there are urates present in the droppings... but the still-full crop is really not good. 

Jay is also right about water dosing not being good for individual, sick birds... and Amoxicillin wouldn't be my choice if I thought I was dealing with paratyphoid or ecoli .... what other meds do you have to choose from? 

This may or may not be a bacterial illness ... but if you are going to treat it as one, it's important to use the most effective drug.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Defrosted peas are best for hydration and protreine intake. You can also put water in a teaspoon and put it under his beak. It takes patience but he will learn. You should feed him via syringe Kaytee Exact or i used to grind the pigeon/dove seeds and with warm water and vit in. 

FYI, my 1 month old baby jumped from the couch on the tiles and splayed from hip. Once i wrapped him, his parents stop feeding him, because when they were coming close to him he was not excited and squeaking for food; also he stoped eating on its own; its possible he was in pain.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> You can't be feeding him seed if he isn't drinking. Keep dipping the beak into a small crock of water and get him to drink. If he isn't drinking, the seed will just pack up in his crop. You haven't answered me about was he drinking on his own before now.


I use a surging to gave him water few often. no, I dont think he knows how to drink on his own yet. Before i took him in, both him and his nestmate still depends on the parents for drink especially from dad. But they both manage to pick up seed on their own.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Dima said:


> FYI, my 1 month old baby jumped from the couch on the tiles and splayed from hip. Once i wrapped him, his parents stop feeding him, because when they were coming close to him he was not excited and squeaking for food; also he stoped eating on its own; its possible he was in pain.


i believe this is what happened to my too. But im very confuse. Could it be a sickness that causing this...well i dont know. 

but one thing for sure he doesnt look sick at all because he is struggling trying to move around. Flapping his wing and trying to stand up. He must doesnt like sitting. 

Since the seed doesnt seem to empty, i will go head and give him kaytee extract.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Warmed applesauce is help the crop to move. Warm some up and give it to him.
If he isn't drinking you need to keep dipping his beak until he learns.

How are you going to feed it to him? You need to be careful not to aspirate him.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also -- I wouldn't really suggest feeding much more until the crop empties -- 

Go with the applesauce, and see if that helps, before even trying the formula -- that would be my advice. He needs hydration and crop movement. 

Jay asked a good question -- how do you plan to feed it to him?


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Also -- I wouldn't really suggest feeding much more until the crop empties --
> 
> Go with the applesauce, and see if that helps, before even trying the formula -- that would be my advice. He needs hydration and crop movement.
> 
> Jay asked a good question -- how do you plan to feed it to him?


Ill have to use a surging..like Dima said. Kaytee Extract babie food and maybe frozen peas.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It's always a bad idea to add more food to old food. Doing so can cause a bacterial infection which often is deadly. If the crop isn't emptying, do give the pigeon small amount of warmed applause, mixed with warm water.* Gently *massage the crop. The applesauce will change the ph balance in the crop and get it moving again. No more solid food until it is empty...no peas and no Exact either.
Also, if the bird isn't kept warm, the crop won't empty. The bird needs to be warm for everything to function properly


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

thanks everyone for your advices, help and fast replies. Unfortunately he die. I think its must be a sickness that killed him not the accident.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I am really sory for the loss.
The sickness is called sour crop!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Dima's right -- he probably died from the crop problems, though he may well have had something else going on too. Please keep a close eye on your other birds.


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