# canker question



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

I did a search on the forum for info on canker...now I need a little advice.

A rescued pijie I spoke of last week as possibly swallowing a seed down her air pipe - or - may have developed a respiratory problem, now seems to have canker.

She was on Baytril for 7 days. On the 5th day she ate absolutely no seeds & so on the 6th day I went to tube feed & saw what I believe is canker (2 spots inside beak - 1 on the side in the front, 1 further back possibly actually on the edge of the air pipe). I never smelled anything foul inside her beak or in her poops.

Today I was given Spartrix by another rehabber. The only thing I was told was to give her the whole pill & this would cure the canker. So this is what I did about 5:30 pm today. BTW, I did not see the growths today. Can they have fallen off while tube feeding yesterday?

The problem, or possible problem is that I tube fed her about 24ml of kaytee exact formula right before giving it to her. It wasn't until I went on line did I see it was recommended to give on an empty crop. So far she just seems pretty sleepy, she has not thrown up.

My question is this...I'm trying to bring her weight up as she lost about 20gms in one day. Her next feeding should be 8:30pm tonight. If she hasn't thrown up, should I continue her feedings as scheduled? Any advice is greatly appreciated. The more I search & find info on this, the more confused I get. Thanks!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Leslie, 

I'm only speculating here, because I'm NOT a rehabber but I don't think you scraped away any canker lesions in her mouth. They would normally bleed if you did that accidentally or not. How big were these and what did they look like exactly?

I wouldn't worry so much about feeding and administering the meds as long as she is not vomitting. It's best to give spartrix on an empty stomach but I think this is because the food could interfere with the medicine and make it less potent. Hold off for as long as you can without feeding again though.


Good luck,


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Thank you Brad.

I don't know how to describe how big they were. They were kind of the size of a "#10" size of lettering, if you know what I mean. The one in the back seemed like it was crowding the air pipe. They were roundish, the one in the back had a less round look to it. They seemed white, & I know canker is supposed to be yellow, but it was hard to be exact on the color.

If not canker, what else could those growths have been? Any ideas?

I guess I can skip the next feeding and go til the 11:30pm one, but that will only make 3 feedings for today. I know she's supposed to get 5 per day & I hate to lose ground w/her. Thanks for your advice.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Leslie, 

It DOES sound like canker or the early stages of it. Pox has similar aspects but I don't think it infects the inside of the mouth...I could be wrong here.

Hold off as long as you can on the next feeding and don't be afraid to give a 3 day course of the spartrix. They say it only takes one pill (I believe), but I've heard conflicting things about this as well. I would give a 3 day course myself especially if it's a stubborn strain. Canker is becoming very resilient to all the common meds. Try 3 days and see what turns out...after that amount of time, report back to us. If you don't see a good improvement, then you may have to switch meds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Leslie, 

What have the poops been looking like?


Canker in the throat will usually form about where ther tonsils would be if they had tonsils, and would look like yellow small curds of cottage cheeze.

White 'round' things sound like Millet Seeds ! But otherwise, I have no idea what those could have been, especially if transient...

They will sometimes throw up if given a Spartrix Pill...so in theory, it is best if between meals otherwise.

Could the round white things have been 'Seeds' that had ben expelled somehow from her trachea?

Has she done any caughing things recently?

Phil
el ve


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks again Brad. If 3 days of Spartrix won't hurt her in any way, I will do it. I'll also check out the symptoms for Pox in the meantime.

Hi Phil. I know it wasn't millet or any other seed. There was initially some coughing type noises...this was a full wk ago when I thought maybe she swallowed a seed down her airway. It came on suddenly at that time. The night before she seemed perfectly normal. I was originally tube feeding her & she had been treated a few weeks ago for coccidia & nemetodes. She's been eating on her own for the past few weeks & then all of a sudden this happened.

When she was "coughing" or clearing her throat, I didn't see anything inside her beak. She continued to crack her beak open when breathing for the rest of the day. I started her on Baytril that day & thought as the week progressed she was getting back to normal. Then, as posted earlier, she completely stopped eating, saw the growths, tube fed, now the growths are not there, gave her 1 spartrix...& here I am.

I know we all have to learn through our experiences, it's just that I thought she was a really good candidate for release & now I'm concerned if she's even going to make it.

Could she have had canker since the day I rescued her (October 31st) & it only showed itself now?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Leslie,

I've sometimes seen canker in a format that varies from the 'classical' description. I also think the issue w/the Spartrix is that it can make them 
nautious and cause them to vomit. That is why the recommendation to give in a food w/holding pattern. Also, the minimum dose recommended is 3-4 days, and can be given up to 5.

Here is a link to the Doctor's Corner for the International Modena Club. If you look under Coryza and Candida, you will see descriptions of illnesses which also are accompanied w/dots. 

You would have to think about if either of the other conditions associated w/the particular illness fit your birds circumstances or not.

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm#Worm Infestation

fp

PS-

You can also scroll all the way to the bottom for salivary stones, and a little further up from that is a pix of Pox. Again, you'll have to pay attention to the other surrounding sypmtoms and presentation of the bird to try and figure out what's going on.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Leslie, 


Well, there are different ways the Trichomonas can infect or localize, and they can have Trichomoniasis without it being per-se 'Canker'...they can localise on various organs or places in the digestive tract...

Growths would not likely come and go so fast...

By 'tube feeding' do you mean via some long enough (and hopefully, boiled-spaghetti-soft of ) tube on-a-syringe, to deposit the formula actually down into the Crop as such? Or...?

Some of the coughing might have been dieing worms or their cysts or something being expelled from the Air Sacs or trachea or lungs even, possibly, and then being swallowed or expelled out the throat...


She was on some worm meds then? 

Had there been any yellow chaulky liquid in the poops?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks FP...my head is spinning w/possibilities. None of the choices seem particularly right, yet they are somewhat possible. The most confusing issue for me is the disappearance of these "growths". I'll do the reading (thank you for that informative site) and maybe bring her to a vet for a culture swab.

Phil,

By tube feeding I do mean the long very soft spaghetti type tube on a syringe going directly into the crop. This is something that I dreaded learning to do, but has since proven to be the life saver of a few pijies already.

The only parasites that I was aware of her having was:
coccidia - treated w/one apertex pill
nemetodes - treated w/1st dose nemex, 2 wks later strongid (couldn't get back to the place w/nemex).

I brought in another fecal today & the vet's office screwed it up by mixing it w/my other pijies fecals - so I can't confirm just yet that she is parasite/worm free.

As far as the poops go, she has always had these very small raisin like dark green w/white poops. After she stopped eating, they were of course even smaller, but stringier as well. Sort of like 1/2" noodles, but not like any type of worm. They did get a little yellow chalky'ish, but I think that started after the exact formula being fed. Come to think of it, in all the times I've used this formula I don't remember seeing that particular color/consistancy in poops before. Does this mean something? The poops are not very liquidy though.

Thanks all.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi Rockie,
I'd definately recommend you get a sample to the vet to check just to be on the safe side.
Your description does not sound like it fits canker exactly, however as mentioned, there can be variances in it appearance.
Usually a baby with canker will start to breath heavy on the first day, then progressively get worse (major wheezing) until a few days later when they usually perish.
The fact that it has been quite a while since you first noticed this and the pigeon is not heavily breathing, plus the spots you mentioned, nearly always get bigger and don't dissapear in a few days without bleeding or leaving damaged holes in the throat may indicate this is not canker, perhaps something else.
Best to check with the vet to see what they think may be happening.
Goodluck with the little one.
Regards
Alaska


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Rockie,

fp, nice mentions there on the Salivary Stones and other.

While it is not definitive, my own experience has me find a stong association with any 'yellow' or chauly-yellow-paint-like urates in the poos...with Trichomoniasis of some kind.

So if you were seeing some of that, it would be prudent to either get a Crop-swab and fecal analysed for seeing if there are Trichomonas present, or, to simply treat for it anyway with no specific analysis being done for that issue. Or, if the Bird seems definitely on the mend, and no more of that was seen, they may have rid themselves of it and for all practical purposes are not in any danger from that now.

If you are intending to get some fecals done for seeing if any Coccidiosis remains or is showing, then maybe they could look for the Trichomonas also at the same time.

That is my 'rule of thumb' anyway, to equate 'yellow' with Trichomonal impetuosities...but Trichomoniasis or Canker is not the only mischief that can make for the Bird having 'yellow' in their poos...but maybe, somehow, even as the Canker itself may apear to be little 'yellow' cottage cheese things, the elimination of spent Trichomonas and spent leucocytes is just that much more likely to be 'yellow' than for other infections' agents/organisms's characteristics to effect urine color...

And probably, sometimes, a Pigeon can have some yellow and it is not a sign of any pathology or disease process at all...but is some clearing out of an old matter of some kind, but I believe it does seem prudent to suppose that this signifys a high number of spent leucocytes in the urine, regardless...which itself is a sign of the Bird fighting or dealing with some kind of infection...anyway...and probably a present one.

And the Trichomonas presence is also as a typical backround symbiote of sorts, in small numbers of course, normally kept in check, which can opportune on a host's weakened immune systems...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

I can't thank you all again enough...it's so wonderful to have opinions & personal expertise from people all over the world.

I am feeling a little bit better today about "Graycee's" situation, as she gained back the 20 gms she had lost. I'm still tube feeding as I don't see her eating on her own. I do believe she is drinking alot though. Her eyes seem a little less heavy than they did yesterday, which had me sooooo worried. 

The poops are much less yellow. I will try to bring her to an avian vet tomorrow for the throat swab & fecal. There is so much to learn, I wish I started earlier in life. It seems like it's all I can do to keep up w/all lifes little & big emergencies, with no time for learning...just learn as you go, as I know many of us do.

I will be giving the spartrix for 3 days, as suggested. I'm still in a little dilema about the withholding food issue, as I can't have her lose any weight. I'll do the best I can for her as I monitor her closely.

*****I'm still interested to know if anyone has thoughts on the fact that whatever this is or was didn't show itself for an entire month of captivity. I do understand that with the "de-parasiting" done, this may have weakened her immune system & opened her up for a new problem. Does this mean this illness was just something lurking inside her? or my big concern is, (even though she is separated from others by being in her own cozy 2x3ft box), that she received it from another pijie by a little feather dust, etc, traveling through the air. I've run out of space for complete segregation at this point, 2 pijies w/sparrow in my bedrm, 6 pijies in an outside shed like bldg in my backyard, 2 in separate areas of the bathrm & 3 in a spare rm (which is where Graycee is). I don't know how others do this????

HAVE A GREAT REST OF THE WEEKEND TO ALL!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Leslie,

Glad to hear that Graycee is doing better today....I think you have one day left of Spartrix, is that right? If you just pull food overnight and give Spartrix first thing in a.m., I think that would be fine. Again, it's more of a stomache upset thing. 

How are the dots today, better or same?

Canker is just in their system but there's a host/parasite equilibrium that is in play so that the parasite doesn't overwhelm them. During times of stress or if other health conditions kick in, then the canker can rear it's head. Just part of the whole picture w/rescues.

fp


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi fp,

Actually the dots were gone as of yesterday and the 2nd Spartrix she will get shortly, as I'm on my way home in a few. Unfortunately, I had no idea about the food issue & only rec'd the spartrix yesterday afternoon, so 5:30pm was the 1st chance I had to give it to her. I'm trying to keep them spaced 24hrs apart. Anyway, her last feeding was at noon today & I'll give her the spartrix at 5pm & not feed again until at least 8:30pm. She didn't throw up yesterday, I'll keep my fingers crossed for the same luck today.

I just came in to work for a short time to feed my flock & I'm going home to Graycee & the gang now. Have a nice evening.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Leslie,

Just wanted to post this link for you on Canker:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM032

Think you'll find it interesting! 
Also, as long as you'll have given a full course of the Spartrix, I 'm not sure that 
a swab is really necessary. You'll have knocked the count down w/the medication.

Anyway, your doing a great job at caring for her _and keeping a watchful eye._  

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Leslie, I do it by the seat of my pants, most of the time!  

Maggie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Leslie, 

Wishing you all the best for Graycee and I hope she continues to get better each day. Keep us updated please


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Just a quick update...I'm happy to report that as of yesterday, Graycee is back to eating on her own & maintaining her weight. This is the best way I have right now of telling that she's feeling better. I haven't seen any more growths (whatever they may have been) and no more open beak breathing/coughing noises.

I'm not 100% satisfied w/her eyes, in that they don't seem as bright & open as I remember them to be originally. She stayed home from work today, since she's eating on her own. I hope to see her looking even better when I get home tonight. 

Thanks for all your help.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

This sounds like very good progress on Graycee's behalf, very glad to hear she is doing well.
Keep us updated
Regards
Alaska


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