# Types of Bronze



## MaryOfExeter

So we know there are 8 types of bronze - Kite, Roller, Tippler, Brander, Modena, Lebanon, Toy stencil, and Archangel.

BUT it can be hard to figure out which you have if you don't have reference pictures. Does anyone have/know of a place that has pictures of each? Obviously Modena and Archangel are easy to find. Modenas can vary a bit in their bronzing though.

It would also be good to have explainations. Just what does each bronze do? What parts of the body/feathers does it turn? Do we know how these are inherited yet?


And now to my personal question - typical bronze in homers. You have a little bit of that color in the bars, and maybe sometimes on the chest a bit when the sun shines on them. The babies usually moult a lot or all of the bronze "lacing" on their feathers. But what kind of bronze causes all/each of those? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume roller bronze, since I've never seen anything dramatic in rollers, just the similar bronzing my homers have.


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## doveone52

i have bronze wing and sulfur wing shakhsharlis. Is sulfur a type of bronzing-just different color?


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## wcooper

Sulfur is a dilute of Bronze. Or so it is in the West world.


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## avian

Tippler bronze










Tippler Bronze T-Pattern Blue Check)











Tippler Bronze T-Pattern Blue Check Grizzle)


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## avian

Archangel










Gold Blackwing (Archangel Bronze, Pale, & T-Pattern Blue Check)










Copper Whitewing (Archangel Bronze T-Pattern Ash Red)


other copper breeds












Bronze Catalonian Tumbler


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## copper

Mary,the bronze color is the result of an admixture of the black and red pigment granules .The bronzes are enhanced or dulled by the increase or decrease of the percentage of red versus black granules. Bronze color can be produced by a direct gene effect , by an indirect gene effect, or by a variable gene expression.Roller bronze is a form of bronzing that usually is confused and mixed with kite.The gene for Kite (K) produces a reddening or bronzing of the inner webs of the flight feathers and a reddening of the tips of feathers over the head and shield of juvenile feathers .


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## avian

Modena Bronze











Blue Gazzi (Modena Bronze Blue Bar)











Blue Grizzle (Modena Bronze Blue Bar Grizzle)












Milky Bronze (Modena Bronze Blue Check Milky)











Bronze (Modena Bronze T-Pattern Blue Check)


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## avian

Blue (Modena Bronze Blue Check)












Blue (Modena Bronze Blue Check)












Bronze Argent Gazzi (Modena Bronze T-Pattern Check)













Sulphur (Modena Bronze Dilute)


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## avian

these are the bronze colors that I know of


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## copper

Avian,I have raised Show Bronze Tipplers for over 40 years.
Brander bronze tipplers carry a type of grizzle (undergrizzle)that is evidently tightly linked to the Kite bronzes. Many tipplers also carry grizzle, tiger grizzle, and pied white as part of their genome.


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## avian

copper said:


> Avian,I have raised Show Bronze Tipplers for over 40 years.
> Brander bronze tipplers carry a type of grizzle (undergrizzle)that is evidently tightly linked to the Kite bronzes. Many tipplers also carry grizzle, tiger grizzle, and pied white as part of their genome.


I dont know much about this foriegn birds only way I find information is by internet
hene In sri lanka
there is not much of a variety of pigeons to raise

the best breeds are modenas archangel and racing homers


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## MaryOfExeter

So what is the difference between brander bronze and tippler bronze?


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## hasseian_313

so is this bronze too

becuse i seen the tippler bronze t-pattern blue cheaks


we call these iraq reds they come in other patterns i posted on the show page 

but the red are they realy bronze


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, those are bronze.


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## hasseian_313

thnx but the orginal color and this is from old breeder were blue bars and they all so once in a while give resessive reds or maybe they are diluted reds ill take pics


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## copper

In the presence of recessive red,the bronze in tipplers is called Brander bronze .


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## newday

*Gabriel bronze*

Here are two young Gabriels, color is not great but you can see archangle when into their development as a breed.

www.martinlofts.com


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## Dutchwitschild

MaryOfExeter said:


> So what is the difference between brander bronze and tippler bronze?










This is, in my opinion, Tipplerbrons








And this is, what we say, Branderbrons.
So, I am not agree with Avian on 29th November 2010, sorry.
I think, that Tipplerbrons has one factor K (bronze) and Branderbrons has two of them.


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## indigobob

Some of the bronze genes are, or appear to me, to be complex combinations with a degree of "overlap" between the different designations.

The basis for "Brander Bronze" is blue T-pattern chequer, heterozygous recessive red, "kite" bronze and undergrizzle, perhaps with dirty and/or sooty. Polygenetic selection will also have had an affect on the differing phenotypes which fall within the "Brander bronze" description of various breeds.
In the UK, the only Brander bronze example I am familiar with is the Show Tippler. Brander x brander pairings will produce recessive red self and "mottle", in addition to brander with variable amounts of black pigmentation. In combination with ash-red this brander bronze will produce a ribbontail phenotype.

The "tippler bronze" in the above photo looks a typical "tortoiseshell" i.e. blue chequer, heterozygous grizzle, possibly recessive red and "a bronze" associated with the hetero. recessive red.


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## MaryOfExeter

Oh wow, I didn't know Branders were that complex.


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## PigeonX

What color bronze is this hen?


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## indigobob

PigeonX said:


> What color bronze is this hen?


A better photograph would help - I can't see any bronze, even with my glasses on!


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## indigobob

;530453 said:


> This is, in my opinion, Tipplerbrons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is, what we say, Branderbrons.
> So, I am not agree with Avian on 29th November 2010, sorry.
> I think, that Tipplerbrons has one factor K (bronze) and Branderbrons has two of them.


You have some interesting information relating to Brander bronze on your website, Dutchwitschild. But none of your matings (see link below "Chimney Sweeps") show recessive red young being produced, except those with the grizzle/mottle factor - is there some linkage between these two genes that they do not segregate independently?


http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...2me.nl/&hl=en&sa=G&biw=1020&bih=567&prmd=ivns


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## MaryOfExeter

indigobob said:


> A better photograph would help - I can't see any bronze, even with my glasses on!


I agree, I can't see any bronze at all.


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## MaryOfExeter

newday said:


> Here are two young Gabriels, color is not great but you can see archangle when into their development as a breed.
> 
> www.martinlofts.com


Pretty birds! Reminds me of Kings but archangel colored. I'm guessing they got their name from the Archangel too?


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## PigeonX

Srry the picture is kind dark, but she is a really dark bronze. I was aiming to breed a black bird but unfortunately she turned out to be a real dark bronze color. Ill post another picture.


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## MaryOfExeter

Kite bronze then? She looks like a really dark velvet.


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## copper

Here in the north-east we have a number of top breeders who specialize in the Show Bronze Tippler.There is strong competition at the local shows.Below are two of the best show tipplers ,shown this year at the Big Apple Invitational.The first picture, of the self was the first place bird.This bird was bred by John Rao,and the second place bird,the mottle was bred by Vincent Tullino.


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## MaryOfExeter

Beautiful!


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## Dutchwitschild

Indigobob: _You have some interesting information relating to Brander bronze on your website, Dutchwitschild. But none of your matings (see link below "Chimney Sweeps") show recessive red young being produced, except those with the grizzle/mottle factor - is there some linkage between these two genes that they do not segregate independently_

I hope I can explain it to you. There are two appearances in Recessive red:
1. Self colored Red (with the factor Spread) and 2 Red-agate (without the factor Spread). So It depends if they possess the factor Spread. The Brander bronze has no Spread factor. If it had then it looks like a complete black bird. 
So the Reds from Brander bronze are Red-agate and show always more or less the grizzle/mottle factor.


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## lance_harmon

I was wondering if you could breed this type of bronze and bronze mottled into homers?


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## Dutchwitschild

_



I was wondering if you could breed this type of bronze and bronze mottled into homers?

Click to expand...

_Hi, lance_harmon.
It is so easy. You need a Branderbronze Showtippler and a (best, dark Checker) homer.
You can read it, if you translate it with Google, in an article of my pigeon-friend Hans Bulte. He studied what kind of Grizzle Branderbronze has. At least you can see the pictures of the results. You can find this article :
http://witschild.come2me.nl/1216558/Div-NHvl-artikelen , -> Naar de artikelen -> And then the link besides "Hans Bulte" Good luck !


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## copper

Dutchwitschild, I have bred Show Tipplers for many years and have crossed them with almost every color Long Faced Tumbler.I was trying to improve type in my birds for show purposes.Some colors took more time to get the finished bird.
I would not use a dark checker to make a bronze homer.I've found that blue bar to be the best and easiest color to cross into show tipplers,and will give you your best results. 
Here in the Northeast we call Brander colored show tipplers COPPERS !!!


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## Dutchwitschild

> Copper: Here in the Northeast we call Brander colored show tipplers COPPERS !!!


I love your beautiful Showtipplers. Lovely birds with a fine bright bronze color!
If you like to see my (English)Showtipplers you can visit http://dhost.info/witschild/overshowtrip.htm 
In Europe we call the bronze Danish Tumbler and the DHF Chimney sweeper Brander-bronze. The Stettiner Shortface, Berliner Shortface are called Coppers. The difference between them is that Branderbronze are brown with a black bar across the end of the flights and tail feathers and the Coppers are brown with black primary flights and black tail feathers.


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## copper

I have had copper Stettiner's and copper Berliner's,but never a copper Danish.Here in Ny we have the New York Danish,it comes in black,dun,yellow,and red.I have bred and flown this breed for many years.I have never seen it in copper color.The NY danish is a very aggressive breed of pigeon,not as peaceful and easy as the show tippler.


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## Dutchwitschild

> Here in Ny we have the New York Danish,it comes in black,dun,yellow,and red.


It looks very much like a Dutch Highflyer -flying type-, black rosewing. These DHF are not aggressive at all and are good flyers (very high) too.
They are often used to feed shortface youngsters.


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## lance_harmon

Does anyone have any bronze show tipplers for sale at a reasonable price?


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## copper

Hey Lance,PM me the state you live in and I will try to locate a breeder with a few extra Coppers .I served as sectary to the show bronze tippler club for 3 years ,and I have a list of breeders across the country.Here in NY where I live, I can get you a few pairs, but because of the weather I'm unable to ship right now.
Dutch,I know the two breeds of birds resemble each other,(Danish & Dutchhighflyer)but if you see them together you will see a sharp difference.I have a good friend who has tsome of the best in the country ,his name is Frank,below is a picture of one of his birds.


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## indigobob

Great photo's of Brander Bronze and the black whitesides, thanks everyone.


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## NetRider

Hey all,

I have the following tippler cock in my loft. (Left in the pic)










Full size picture is available here:
http://i53.tinypic.com/fz2k40.jpg

My question is, he has these brownish looking bars. Is this some type of bronze?


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## MaryOfExeter

Sure is!  I don't know what kind though. It would be nice to know as I have had quite a few homers with bronze like that in the bars and such.
I even have a hen right now with only one or two bronze feathers? Very noticable to, but only on one bar, on one wing.


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## Dutchwitschild

Maybe, it is an Indigo blue bar ?? I found this on internet http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/blueindigo.html


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## NetRider

Hmm interesting..

Here is a video of another tippler cock in my loft who seem to have the same brown bars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCN0d_3RkM0

But this one seems to be more like the indigo blue bar Dutchwitschild posted. He surely does carry sooty because of the spots, and I dunno that tail kinda looks andalusian to me? (42 seconds and onward..)


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## MaryOfExeter

No, the bird you posted isn't an indigo. Indigos don't have tail bars (which I can't see in the pic so I dunno if he has one or not), and the rust color covers the whole bar.


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## NetRider

OK so they are both bronze then.. Can you use bronze to make something special? Like u can use indigo to create andalusian..


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## copper

I'm sorry ,I'm going to backtrack a little. Dutchwitschild,I have been thinking about what you have asked me about the picture you posted of the Danish Brander ,I would like to give you my opinion here .That bird has such a shiny color,I've really never seen a copper Tippler that has this glossy look.I would think that this bird has a gene that affects feather structure.These birds have a slight twisting of the feather barbules so that they separate the light spectrum so that a sheen is reflected.The darker the feather color the more "sheen" is produced.This iridescence is not the typical sheen seen on the neck of the wild type bird but one that affects the entire bird plumage such as seen in Archangels, Saxon Whitetail "Firebacks"etc.


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## MaryOfExeter

Isn't the shiny feathering caused by the grease-quill trait?


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## MaryOfExeter

NetRider said:


> OK so they are both bronze then.. Can you use bronze to make something special? Like u can use indigo to create andalusian..


It all depends on the kinds of bronze you're using. You can dilute them and make sulphur, which is pretty  I think all these branders and tipplers are pretty special, but I don't have the means for making them.
But with the kind of bronze all of us have, just in the bars like that, I don't think we're making anything special 


I don't think anyone has posted Lebanon bronze yet. Lebanons are so beautiful! I didn't realize the reds were actually bronze?


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## copper

No Mary ,not the same .Grease quills are a mutation of the fluff feathers (semiplumes) that grow along the sides of the bird from the wing to the uropygium (tail oil gland). These mutant feathers look like pinfeathers with an open end that exudes a greasy or powdery waxy substance.


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## copper

Lebanon bronze is a nebulous bronze that is said to produce a very deep red on ash red T-pattern.They may not be a separate bronze but the effect of "one of several" bronzes on the Ash red velvet coloration.


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## MaryOfExeter

copper said:


> No Mary ,not the same .Grease quills are a mutation of the fluff feathers (semiplumes) that grow along the sides of the bird from the wing to the uropygium (tail oil gland). These mutant feathers look like pinfeathers with an open end that exudes a greasy or powdery waxy substance.


Interesting. Sounds nasty looking 


http://www.angelfire.com/nv/SyrianBreedsClub/Misc.Photo3/RedLeb.jpg
What causes the stenciling in the flights and tail but doesn't effect the rest of the bird?


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## copper

The two bronzes normally found in lebanons are Toy Stencil &frill stencil.
Lebanons that are heterozygous for Toy Stencil and homozygous for frill stencill, The fs not only makes the white tail mark but in conjuction with the hetero Ts will also produce the white bars.Without the Fs the bars would have been bronze.


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## NetRider

MaryOfExeter said:


> It all depends on the kinds of bronze you're using. You can dilute them and make sulphur, which is pretty  I think all these branders and tipplers are pretty special, but I don't have the means for making them.
> But with the kind of bronze all of us have, just in the bars like that, I don't think we're making anything special
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone has posted Lebanon bronze yet. Lebanons are so beautiful! I didn't realize the reds were actually bronze?


I see.. well no luck then.. Guess will continue to breed the blue bars  Even if I managed to create sulphur with this bird it would be a little "yellowish" on the bars, and nothing like the T-patterned, or Checkered birds


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## newday

*Kite bronze from Almond*

Hre is a young kite bronze from Almond roller.


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## MaryOfExeter

Beautiful!


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