# New injured baby



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I picked up Baby Becky yesterday morning from a nice lady who found her in her yard.
She looked so bad I didn't think she would make it home. Seems like a young adult, skinny with missing feathers on her neck, back and chest, an old wound on the back of the head and the right foot nonfunctional. 
After hydrating and keeping her on a heating pad I started feeding her. Now she is getting probiotics, neem oil, colloidal silver and Cipro.
The leg is what concerns me, she can stand but cannot walk, her toes get entangled under the foot and she falls over. Now she is very feisty and fights me at every feeding.
I don't know why she isn't eating on her own.
Poops are great. She does them only once in a while but they are big and good looking.
She does get up and backs up to the end of the tank to poop, must be a she She didn't go once on the heating pad. Such a cutie.
Any ideas about eating and her foot?

Reti

PS: will get better pics tomorrow. She was sleeping now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Time. It might be that she got attacked or otherwise hit in the air and Heaven only knows about the trauma. As long as she's eating (getting food, either on her own or being tube fed) and is on prophylactic meds, there's not much use in over-worrying if you can't see anything obviously dangling improperly or whatever. If you think the toes want to stay curled up then open them out on some tape or make a snowshoe like Cynthia did that time.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Reti, 

Very sweet little pij you have there, looks pretty at ease even if she is getting
feisty about the feedings. Could be that her appetite has shrunk a bit from not
being able to forage the way that she normally would in good health. Also, Cipro and Baytril can/do cause nausea, so just be patient w/her and keep feeding or augmenting the food intake, she'll probably pick up the pace on her
own in a bit.

Could be a failed hawk attack, a missed landing when dropped from above, perhaps she may have some bruising or sprain/strain somewhere along the spine. Maybe some massaging of the foot and make a little shoe for her to get her toes in the correct alignment. 

She lucked out twice yesterday, so three's a charm, hoping those toes get back to their old selves.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


This looks like an adult to me...'red-orange' Eye eurrounds, white full Nares...filled-out physique...


Or is there some vestigual yellow down whisps still?


I'd say the same as Pidgey and fp...sometimes they have no real appetite for a while, and so long as you can feed her for now, then that is excellent. And or the meds are messing with her appetite, or both.

Might be a few days or a week or more but at some point she will start pecking again and likely this in itself will signal the passing of some phase of who-knows-what which was bothering her.

Foot-wise, as Pidgey and fp mention, you can make a little Diorthotic or Orthopaedic 'shoe' out of some regular corrogated cardboard, and even make it kind of in the shape of the outline of her Foot, only with slight slender pie-shaped cuts for the Toes to go and for them to sort of stay put in.

I have sometimes made these progressively, where the first 'shoe' only has the Toes and Thumb a little ways extended, with a lot of padding under it.

The next one - after a week or something with the first - extends them a little more, and the next one usually does it to set them into a full extention...

However, now that I wrote all that, I am thinking this is most likely a sprained/strained Hip or Leg issue, or a green-stick fracture.

These can and often do take four weeks or more to heal, and of course do not require us to do anything per-se, other than to provide gentle comforts and deferences.

Last one I had, was a five-weeker with the Leg issue, but the Leg and Foot and Toes are perfect now, and she got well of it all on her own, just lot of rest and easy living and gentleness from me.

She was ( what I took to be ) a Dog-maul survivor with 'old' wounds when I found her...missing most of her back Feathers and some Tail Feathers, broken-sprained Leg or injured Hip with one Leg held 'up' and out of commission, and generally looked like she'd been really roughed up not too long before...so, yours might just be along these same lines...underweight somewhat...

Her Leg was held up slightly, and she could not, or would not, put any weight on it...otherwise limp but in the right alignment with no side-play to speak of...Toes after a while were all curled 'under' her palm...

I did some occasional gently Hip and upper Leg massages and she liked these...that and 'lap Bird' time, when I was at my computer and so on.

The softly rolled small Towell 'do-nut of course is nice for them in these situations...

I did not use any meds other than some Metronidazole in the beginning, then some Berimax for a week or so after, then ACV-Water after that. This also allowed me to provide Calcium rich Grit with no worries. 

Mine had a feeble or tentative appetite at first but was self-feeding allright, so I made some 'special' Seed mixes ( Garlic, Anise Seeds, Purple Dulce flakes, light glistening of fresh Olive Oil, and whatever else, in with the Pigeon-Mix) and soon, for whatever reasons, she was eagerly eating plenty and making lots of good poops.

I meant to worm her but forgot...but she filled out her lost weight and looked grand...or maybe I did worm her??? Huh, I think I did, actually...

Lol...


Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

Well now, that is one well-mannered pigeon, not pooping on the heating pad.  

I agree with what everyone has already said. Time will tell.

I think you are doing everything you can, and the next few days will tell whats going on. Perhaps her being skinny means she is a bit mal-nourished and is depleated in calcium reserves, and maybe why she doesn't want to get up and move much.

Once you determine she doesn't have an upset stomach, put her on the garlic too.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, Pidgey, fp, Phil and Treesa.

She seems to be doing ok so far even though she lost weight, she went from 245 to 229gr. I must up her feedings, I guess.
I will look into making a bootie for her this afternoon, as she started getting up and walking around a bit.

Treesa, she is really very well manered, so cute. I will add the garlic as soon as I get her weight up a little. Her crop empties nicely and droppings look really nice.

I did notice that she has lid lag on her left eye.
That reminds me of stroke patients, left face paralysis and right foot drop. Hmm, could be hit on the head caused this.
That would also explain her inability to eat and drink.
I'll keep you posted and will try to get some pics of her foot and eye.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My bird, Jag, must have gotten hit and it affected the one side. He never regained the use of the one wing--it stiffened into a position almost below him--and the leg on that side doesn't work properly although he can walk. He's out in the loft managing his own life, though. The eyelid on that side was kinda' drawn down as well. There were enough missing feathers to indicate that it was more than likely the result of blunt trauma on that side.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I emailed my vet and he said it could be PMV or indeed head trauma which can lead to stroke like manifestations.
She seems ok other than the affected eye and foot. I can't tell about the wing, seems though normal in position.
When Lee gets back I will try to get a pic of the eye. I also want to try a pupilary reflex.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Positively she can't see out of her left eye. Vieving from top, the left side of her head seem sunken.
Poor baby, I feel so bad for her.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

That does sound like some major injury/stroke and trauma.

I'm so sorry to hear that she has such a terrible injury and has lost vision in her left eye. 

I would continue all supportive care, and don't forget to use the ARNICA MONTANA for head trauma. This will help heal and reduce swelling and clean up any blood inside.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I forgot about Arnica. Thanks for reminding me.
I hope I still have some.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

If she does have brain injury/stroke, that may be another reason why she is combative, she seems to have some of the symptoms.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can she move both wings on her own? With Jag, every problem was on the same side. Baby Becky here's got it kinda' jumbled up. Jag's eye looked just like that, though. I thought at the time that there was swelling on the top of the head above the eye on that side.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes, she is very combative, I have trouble holding her cause I am afraid I drop her. Otherwise in her tank, she just sits there.
It is the first time I use the tank for rehab and it seem to work great. She is very relaxed in it and the temperature stays constant. She is alert, at least.

Pidgey, depending on the location of the bleeding, above or below some point (where the fibers decussate) the facial symptoms can be on the same or the oposite side of the body paralysis.
Also it can happen that only the foot is affected and the facial muscles. I think if the bleeding is in just a specific point of the frontal lobe it affects only the foot, then the head distorsion might be just from the blow and it affected the eye.
A CT scan would be great, but I don't know who would do that on a pigeon.
How did you treat Jag?

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How did I treat Jag? There wasn't anything to treat, really. I did run him through a Baytril course HOPING it was Paratyphoid instead of trauma causing irrepairable neurological damage. In the end, that's exactly what it was. I could tell that the bones of the shoulder and wing were intact but the wing was being pulled downward in a very strange way--it rolled under the body while the tip wasn't moved much at all. Of course, that was a progressive thing that took a month or two to reach its maximum expression. I don't think I've ever seen a pigeon put its wing in that position before, period.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


'Columbo' ( who turned out to be a Hen, ) had appearently hit a tall second storey window 'hard', then fell like a rock to the pavement below, where an Office Worker went out, found her, and called me.

This was quite a while ago now, but comes to mind in some ways, because of yours.

Columbo could not use her Legs, but kept them rigid in front of her fully extended, so would fall over forward unless propped up.

When I would pick her up and move her this way and that, her reflexes were all goofed up...her Tail would always all go to one side, for one thing...

She had one droopy Eye lid, but seemed to see allright, or, actually, I think her sight was in some doubt there for a while, but did seem alright at some point...

Anyway, these things took a long time to clear up...heck, five months maybe.

But, eventually, she regained everything perfectly, but the one eye lid's droop.

She flys splendidly, has a mate, was a released Wild Bird for quite a few weeks, but snuck into the Shop with her Mate ( "Joe", who has no Tail at all) and goes out flying every day with him, and comes back whenever and roosts in the Shop together with Joe...and overall is a happy Bird. She laid some Eggs but they rolled out of their Nest to the floor.

Meaning...as you may know, four or five months or more even is not unusual, for the time needed for some of these Brain or other Nerve injurys to slowly heal up and or re-wire themselves to whatever degree they shall.

I would guess, that whenever we have one of these, it would be good to know what food suppliments or dietary suppliments we might favor to aid them just that much more in their recovery.

We all have our usual things of course...but I would like to have more of them to use for special cases like these kind are.

Foods rich in Natural "B" Vitamines of course, such as Brewer's Yeat powder, is a good one for the Brain and Nerves...as would be Ginseng, I am sure...as is the fresh Olive Oil 'glisten' for their Seeds...

Super Greens powders or Chlorella, too of course...

Natural out-door direct Sunshine when possible...

Bits of dried minced sour or dark Cherries would likely be good in general...or ditto Goji Berrys of course, being great antioxidants and generally very nutritious...

Anyway...

Such a pretty Bird you have there... 

She sure looks like a sweetie, even if she gets fierce sometimes...

Leg might be 'just' a sprain too of course, or hip injury, and not a neuological matter...time will tell...but I know four or five weeks sometimes is what some mild 'breaks' or bad sprains can take...so...

Any which way, "Time" for sure...

Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Pidgey and Phil.
I guess we have a long period of recovery period ahead of us.
I wish she would start eating on her own. Today she looks a bit better and is standing better, her weight is up. I did feed her a whole bunch yesterday.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Oye, sometimes we do get these "handsfull' ones...!

I recon she will come around to eating sometime soon.

You know, when I have to tube-feed them, I of course always whoop up a formula that has a lot of extra things in it on top of the 1/3 or so by volume of KT or Hagens...

Yours being on the meds, as well as her various injurys and soreness and feeling probably rather tender and all, the meds can throw off their appetite even when they might otherwise have been into it.

So, likely by the time she's off the meds, that Beak will commence to pecking again.

Have you other Pigeons who can be pecking at Seeds next to her Cage?

That of course is a good one to do...that can get 'em going again...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Phil.
My birds are all in the other room, they are free flying in the room, Becky is isolated in the living room in her 20gallon tank. She can certainly hear there are pigeons around but hasn't seen them yet and I don't want her in contact with my birds yet, until we rule out all the common diseases ferals might come with.
One good thing though, she can fly. She took off right after the feeding and made a round in the living room and landed on the table where I was able to pick her up.
Well, I think that is good and she is improving, she wasn't flying when the lady picked her up and when I got her.

The meds could be affecting her appetite too, like you said and she probably is still sore from the injuries.


Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That sounds like a big improvement that she's flying again in such a short time
with you, hopefully the rest will just take time. BTW, Plumb's and PDR do list nausea for Baytril and Cipro, so there's no reason to believe that the meds
couldn't be contributing to her lack of desire to self feed. Also, good that you're being cautious of introducing her to your other birds just yet, although
I tend to think that even just hearing them in the other room must be a comfort
for her. 

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I hope it is from the meds that she is not eating.
I wonder how long I should keep her on the Cipro/Flagyl combo, a week, 10 days?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If she/he is not showing any signs/symptoms of canker, or etc, finish the preventive course, and continue the supportive nutrition/herbs.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,



If it were me, I would not quarenteen ( other than of course being 'in' a cage for their convelesent-time) unless there was conspicuous signs or suspicions of Viral agencies afflicting the Pigeon...

I myself, just have them in their Cage where ambient others can be seen immediately, and or for a food Bowl to be next to their Cage even, for free flying others to come and peck out of in effect 'next' to the convelesent, to cheer up the one getting well.

Too, I only sometimes put them on Batril or Cipro for occasions of 'old' injuries ( ie, ones which I take to be five days old or more from before I got them )...and I have had no troubles with this decision.

My last few dog-mauled ones who I found quite a few days after their injurys happenned...I either used no meds, or maybe I used Metronidazole for suspected Canker, ( and or likely did the re-hydration rituals initially, then let them self-feed with some light meals and so on, ) and that was it med-wise...so, usually I do not confront 'appetite' issues as can sometimes accompany the use of the Batril.

Your Pigeon may also have neurological influences effecting their appetite, which is independant of the meciation itself effecting it.

So, as for length of time for her to be on the Matril/Cipro, I dunno, really...but if there are no appearent punctures needing to be probed and debrided or flushed out and so on, no points of entry for infections from bites, no serious suspicions of infection lingering...I would STILL say probably, since you started the regimen, it is likely best to finish it for a full course of 7 to 10 days, and call it macaronii.

Of course, not finishing the regimen, in theory, can breed resistant strains of whatever Bacteria might be afoot...so...I believe once started we do best to finish the course.

Anyway, when I get ones who appear to have been injured by Cats or Dogs or Hawks, I always put them on Batril or Cipro unless I see that the wounds are old, meaning, I take them to be a close to a week old or more, in which case I tend not to adminster any antibiotics unless I decide I am in fact seeing signs of early or mid infection-illness.

This has worked just fine and with no problems...no losses, no disappointments.

Usually, the Pasturella or other bite related Bacteria, if it IS going to make problems for them, seems to either do it's worst by day three or four, or, they beat it on their own somehow...unless there are nasty deep things going on from punctures abcessing inside, so...

Thats my understanding anyway for these broader sitatuations' imports.

Your Bird appearently has some injury/trauma to her Head and Neck and possibly her Hip or Leg and Back also, and these, even if not having infection prone punctures or lacerations, of course can or do effect their Nerves and muscles and 
co-ordination.

So, unless youy feel there is a Virus afoot here, I am sure you would be fine to have her and her Cage 'in' where the other Birds can visit next to her, and for her to see them pecking and so on, especially of you set a seed Bowl next to her Cage for them, and this might just get her over the hump for self-feeding, and, if it does not, it will still be a moralle booster for her regardless.


Best wishes you two!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Phil.
I was thinking I finish the meds in seven days and take it from there. 
The most I fear is PMV, I want to rule this out before I put her in with my guys. I really wouldn't want to have to deal with PMV in my flock.
I offered seeds again before breakfast and even though she was looking at them and attempted to peck she stopped right away. I am thinking also, maybe the sunken in side of her head might be sore and she can't eat, I don't know.
The wound of the back of the head seems old, about a week old, seems deep too as I tried to see if the scab is coming off, but it doesn't.
The leg is better, but the foot still has a problem with the toes, but she is walking better. There is also a wound on the back of that foot, also old.
Good thing, when I go to pick her up she wing slaps me, both wings are working fine, after I pick her up she is calm.
So, there is improvement. 
I do have my dove Olivia in the living room most of the times (she doesn't like birds, but loves TV and the computer) so I will try to make arrangements so they can see each other. Hope that will help Becky.
Thank you.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Short update*

Becky is doing pretty good. The scab from the head fell off and looks good, feathers are growing in where they were missing.
Now, with the foot we do have trouble, the toes bend undeneath the foot and she falls over. But she is starting to adapt to it, she lifts her bad leg up higher when walking and that way she is able to put the whole foot down without bending. Aren't pijies smart.
She is still not eating, I am hopeful she will start tomorrow, today was her last day of antibiotics, so we'll see if her poor appetite is from that.
I still think she can't see with her left eye, that might be permanent.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Wow, I am sure glad to hear of these improvements...!

She sure has a lot going on, and every little thing getting better, is wonderful to hear. She is definitely doing well so far...good going!

Anise Seeds, slightly crushed, sprinkled on top of their regular Seeds...sometimes can perk up a hesitant appetite...


Fingers crossed...!


Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She is still not eating, not even one seed she wants to try.
I don't have a clue what could cause this.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

How are her poops looking? Does she have an upset stomach? Are you feeding her formula or seeds? Is she drinking? If you are feeding her formula, perhaps try to hand feed her some seeds, maybe she would like the change.

Maybe she is lonely for company. Do you think her spirits would be lifted if she could join the gang and watch them eat? Perhaps that might give her the desire to eat.

Also, let her get real hungry and see if perhaps that might motivate her to eat on her own?

Perhaps her sense of taste and smell are also affected from the trauma too, and what about her sight, can she see?

Tell her I'm coming over just to feed her, and I will bring my kefir too!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

LOL, Treesa, if I tell her about the kefir she might start eating on her own just to avoid it.
I thought she might be lonely and depressed. I took her to the room today, but it didn't help her eat.
He poops are ok, considering she is getting formula. I gave her puppy chow for lunch, will try some seeds tonight.
She is not able to walk right, she keeps on falling over for some reason, Her leg looks kind of atrophied.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Glad to hear her Wings are in good shape...

If the injured-limpish Leg is actually atrophied, this would suggest an older Nerve injury-issue, which might have come about from a lower back injury, in her case anyway...

My last dog-maul survivor who had everything heal up prefectly, for a while there, her Foot was not knoy limp, but the Toes were curled underalso and I felt really worries, seeing that...then, a few days later, it changed, and tentatively the Toes came back 'up' and the Leg continued to improve till all was as well and the injured Leg was as good as the 'good' one.

What are you feeding her?

How are the poops?

Is she underweight? ( I forgot, if you'd said, sorry...)

Is she on ACV-Water? ( this can be a help for appetites, as a side effect or incidental of it diminishing inimical Crop and digestive bacteria or other organisms...where, some Birds, even slight Candida or Yeats can really diminish their feeling of well being, and really throw off their appetite...)

Just a thought...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes, she is underweight, 290gr, she is small a pigeon though. When I got her she was 245gr.
I am feeding her Harrison's Juvenile formula. Occasionally I am giving her Harrison's power treats for birds. Poops are good. Spirits are better, she is less combative unless it is feeding time.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

Is she drinking at all on her own?

If not, then wet the seed, drain and feed it to her with a baby spoon, it is quite messy at first, but I got real good using a tiny baby spoon.

You might try massaging the attrophied leg/foot with Neem oil before putting her back in the tank, and you can also try the Allicidin Liquid.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I never saw her drink. I guess she is not. 
Will apply neem oil on her leg, but have to wait for you with the allicidin.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Hmmmm...

If she is not drinking, this is rather odd indeed...

If it were me, I would definitely whoop up some ACV-Water, to the tune of three or four Tablespoons to the Gallon, and use 'that' for mixing her formula-meals...and, also, I'd augment the 'Harrisons' a little by adding some pro-biotics to it, as well as, say, ohhhhhhh...a good measure of Goji-Berry concentrate or pure juice ( get at any Health Food store)...and maybe also good dab of powdered Brewer's Yeast powder and Chlorella powder ( ditto, any Health Food Store...) and this would be a good deal for he right now I am sure.

If you have any Metronidazole, it might be helpful to give her a regular sort of regimen of that to stimulate her intestinal immune functions and general immune system.

What is your feeding method for her?

Is it a narrow diameter tube into the mid Crop? Or...?

Does her Crop feel 'funny' at all? Saggy? it is for sure passing the food allrighty? No lingering 'thick' stuff setting in there?

I am concerned she might be fighting some Candida or Yeast issues...or at least such could make for a loss of appetite or general debility anyway...so, really, if it were me, I'd treat for those ( since it does no harm or strain to treat for them by the ACV method, ) by first making sure her Crop IS passing everything well enough, and then, to use the ACV-Water for her formula mixing...AND even for her occasional 'just' being given a drink, also.

If there were any suggestion of her Crop being sluggish, I'd just tube-feed plenty of ACV-Water only for a couple of three or four days and no 'food' otherwise, or thin 'soups' maybe, and see how things seem then...

She might have Worms too of course, but I'd wait a while yet before treating for those rascals I think.


But, in theory, 'something' was likely amiss for her to have gotten into some sort of predation scenario in the first place...something was slowing her down or effecting her...unless it was a Hawk anyway, but as far as if it were a Cat or Dog anyway...

So...


Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*it were me, I would definitely whoop up some ACV-Water, to the tune of three or four Tablespoons to the Gallon, and use 'that' for mixing her formula-meals...and, also, I'd augment the 'Harrisons' a little by adding some pro-biotics to it


I do all that. She is getting ACV in the formula every time and once a day probiotics[/B].



 as well as, say, ohhhhhhh...a good measure of Goji-Berry concentrate or pure juice ( get at any Health Food store)...and maybe also good dab of powdered Brewer's Yeast powder and Chlorella powder ( ditto, any Health Food Store...) and this would be a good deal for he right now I am sure.


I have to go and get some stuff for her tomorrow.


If you have any Metronidazole, it might be helpful to give her a regular sort of regimen of that to stimulate her intestinal immune functions and general immune system.

She was on Metro for a week.

What is your feeding method for her?
Is it a narrow diameter tube into the mid Crop? Or...?

Yep, I crop feed.

Does her Crop feel 'funny' at all? Saggy? it is for sure passing the food allrighty? No lingering 'thick' stuff setting in there?

I am concerned she might be fighting some Candida or Yeast issues...or at least such could make for a loss of appetite or general debility anyway...so, really, if it were me, I'd treat for those ( since it does no harm or strain to treat for them by the ACV method, ) by first making sure her Crop IS passing everything well enough, and then, to use the ACV-Water for her formula mixing...AND even for her occasional 'just' being given a drink, also.

If there were any suggestion of her Crop being sluggish, I'd just tube-feed plenty of ACV-Water only for a couple of three or four days and no 'food' otherwise, or thin 'soups' maybe, and see how things seem then...

Not really, her crop empties fine, poops are tons and good looking.

She might have Worms too of course, but I'd wait a while yet before treating for those rascals I think.


But, in theory, 'something' was likely amiss for her to have gotten into some sort of predation scenario in the first place...something was slowing her down or effecting her...unless it was a Hawk anyway, but as far as if it were a Cat or Dog anyway...

So...


Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas[/QUOTE]

I will up the dose on the ACV and see what happens in a few days.
I moved her to the bird room, she doesn't seem all that excited. She is still on her tank and she seems to love it there. When i took her out for a bit of exercise she wanted right back in.

Thanks for your help.

Reti*


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

Lets change her diet, and get her on some soaked seeds, drained. If you have got her on Allicidin/garlic I wouldn't worry about worms at the moment. You can always make up the Chapparel tea and give her the heavy duty treatment. I will bring my kefir.

AH! YES!! I noticed Dr. Marshall has Goji berries now, I'm going to look into it.



.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Lol...

Well, I tried to cover everything I could think of..! Sounds like you have left me hardly anything to add...!

Well, one thing I do sometimes, is to play "Who's got-a-tummy? - YOU'VE got-a-tummy!"

This is a simple game or gesture and usually they like it. It goes like this:

I do lots of nods and slow gestures as if to come in to preen...I then stare at their lower Crop area sort of and slowly bring the index and first finger of a hand there and softly sort of preen or rub way low below their Crop, as I narrate "Who'se got-a-tummy? - You've got-a-tummy!"

Yes, this sounds silly, I know ( and it IS 'silly, too)...but even some of the real hard-case attitude ones let me get away with it. It is so novel FOR them, as wild Pigeons, that they sort of do not know what to do, so they let me do it, and pretty soon, they like it.

This helps them also decide that 'hands' are maybe not SO bad, but it does not mean that I will be given other liberties, either, necessarily...or they will bite the heck out of me unless they 'know' it is only, 'just' some "who's got-a-tummy-time', and nothing else...



But, somehow, the sort of low Crop and below that of massages, seems to help them sometimes, even if I do not know quite why or how...and, what brought this to mind, is that I remembered sometimes, if they have not shown much interest in food, are feeling off or nausions or who knows, they will sort of start pecking if I am doing that ( slightly from one side, ) and if there is a little bowl of Seeds in front of them...

There is something, sometimes, about the physical stimulation of the bottom of their Crop and below that also, which make them think about chow-time...so...

Ya never know....might be worth a try...!




Tressa...

Who is Dr. Marshal?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Phil, that is so funny, I don't know if I can pull this one without laughing and scaring her Sounds though it is worth to give it a try.
She is calmer by now and doesn't mind being handled all that much. She is in the birdroom now but haven't seen much improvement in her behavior, she just sits all day long, doesn't move around other than getting up and doing some stertching and changing position. I guess she might have more neurological damage than previously thought. We'll see.
Thank you so much for your input.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello,

I personally fed Becky last night, with more then a tablespoon dry small seeds with a few larger seeds,I a gave her several cc's of kefir and some of water. Some of what she ate she thru up, it looked like larger seeds, so we are not sure if it was hard for her to digest the big seeds or if I overfed her, or the change of diet. 

She is alert today, and stood up on both feet for a short time, she was a little lighter then yesterday.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hello,
> 
> I personally fed Becky last night, with more then a tablespoon dry small seeds with a few larger seeds,I a gave her several cc's of kefir and some of water. Some of what she ate she thru up, it looked like larger seeds, so we are not sure if it was hard for her to digest the big seeds or if I overfed her, or the change of diet.
> 
> She is alert today, and stood up on both feet for a short time, she was a little lighter then yesterday.


I suppose it could be any of the above, it's certainly no longer an issue of side
effects from meds. Seems you've treated for worms and microbials via alternative methods. Perhaps the continuing nausea is head trauma related 
much the same that concussions can produce symptoms of nausea and vision impairment.

fp


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks fp. She has head trauma, we don't know how severe it was, I agree and so does Treesa hubby, Becky has the typical neurological symptoms of post head trauma. Hopefully she wil recover somewhat in time.
Treesa fed her smaller seeds this morning and she seems to digest those well.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, all...


I forgot to mention, that if one is to do the "Who's-got-a-tummy...You've-got-a-tummy!", that one's hand must be brought in "low" and 'slow' of course, from whatever distance one starts off at...low, at their foot level, and keep it low too...


Throwing up Seeds...

I am concerned that there may be some Candida or Yeast problems ( or even a low Crop Canker issue for that matter, ocalized in some injury site from an inside small puncture from a wrong kind of Seed or Fox Tail or the likes, ot foreign object) effecting her, and if low in the Crop, this could ( if it were only some ways advanced and not too advanced) make for some restrictions/constrictions/inflammation down there where the seeds pass to go on to the Stomach. This can make them throw up the larger Seeds, while passing the smaller ones...as well as make them feel crappy...or even make them 'drunk' from the toxins of the infestation/infection if Candida or Yeasts.

There might be a foreign object 'in' the Crop, and it might be a good idea, when she is on 'empty' to see if you can do some major feeling and palpating to see if you can feel anything odd there.

Check her skin also on the outside of her Crop, to see if there are any funny areas of discoloration, dark areas or bruising or yellowish color...there might be a contusion, or there might be an beginnings of an abcess from the inside ( which when hydrated will not feel like anything and can be hard to notice)

The famous ACV-Water of course is highly recommended for this Bird...and, at a reasonable mix of three-to-four Tablespoons to the Gallon of Water for all her Water intake of drinking ( if she will drink), formula mixing, AND or putting directly into her Crop via 'the tube' ( tepid, of course, is kindest...)


When she stands up and stretches, does she do it well? 

Usually of course they do one Wing and the other leg, or the other Wing and the other Leg, but, over the course of a day or something, does she alternate to do 'both' Wings, and both Legs in her 'stretches' and does she do them well? Full normal stretching kinds of extensions, and evenly? even if a little wobbley?

If you pick her up in both hands cradleing her, keeping her 'even' laterally-horizontally, pick her up from the front, does her Tail spread out, fan out evenly if you tilt her forward or backward a little bit?

Or, does it only spread out partially or to favor one side?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil, this is one of those threads that's starting to get kinda' spread out in time. And that's the way it's going to be due to type of history the bird has. This bird had obvious trauma to the head, can't see out of one eye and had the one leg drawn up and the foot curled... and not even on the same side as the drooping eye. We're talkin' one messed up pigeon, here. About the only thing that hasn't been a problem is crop stasis and the bird is capable of flight. She just doesn't have much motivation to get around or do anything. 

I will say that sometimes it's a good idea to give them motivation to try. Sometimes the act of taking care of yourself, feeding yourself and generally getting off your duff to live is a good thing--it can sometimes perk somebody up when nothing else will. Reti, you might actually try stopping feeding her for a day or two to see if she'll start picking up the slack.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Oh...sorry, I was not remembering well enough the original history-situation...


I got going on the not-eating part and so on...


But none-the-less, so long as whatever minsterings are gentle and supportive, they are worthwhile of course...

I have had occasions of Pigeons who from whatever injury, had nerve/corordiation problems, and these take time, many months even, to resolve.

Of course there are sometimes initial gradients of improvement which are very encouraging for the Bird, and for us...and so far, this seems to be happenig for this Bird, with more to go of course.

Some of me was concerned about the Bird's probable prior history of privation, and bacteria or other problams which can develop form that, and which we do well to treat for when getting Injured Birds who went however long without food or water prior to our getting them...

So hard to guess how 'nerves' effected in injury could be making for complications...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Phil and Pidgey.
The foot is not curled anymore, she can walk if she wants to but seems not to care to do so. She is wobly when trying to get around but without favouring any side, she seems like more she is dizzy or something.
She is very alert and interested in her surounding and when I put her on the balcony yesterday she seemed to perck up.
There was no more throwing up, I am feeding her small seeds only. I don't feel any masses in her abdominal area neither does she have any bruises or discoloration.
Candida is a possibility, of course. She is getting her ACV daily and probiotics.

Pidgey, I am afraid not to feed her for longer periods, she is still too skinny. I am thinking to faten her up a little more and then give it a try.
I do hold off the morning feedings as long as possible, when she should be the hungriest, but she doesn't show any interest in eating.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Tressa...
> 
> Who is Dr. Marshal?


Hi Phil,

I never saw your question earlier, and I'm sorry for the late response. Dr. Marshall is the owner/founder/maker of Healthline, premier products, of which I use on myself and the pigeons. He started out his life working as a biochemist for a major nutrition firm. The quality of their products became less then superior as the prices of raw material increased, so he founded his own company. He is a certified nutritionist and PHD, and has phenomal producst that actually do what they are supposed to do and that is match the cells resonance perfectly. He has several manufacturing plants and offices in Downey Calif, as well as Round Rock, Texas. He has patients that come to see him at both offices and is pretty much booked up until April of next year. He also does symposiums with nothing but a doctor clientell and also has a wonderful radio talk show you can listen to around the country. I never talk to him at all hardly because he is so busy, but I do get to talk to several people who work with him who have gotten approval (from him) of using some of his products on my birds. Because he started out as a biochemist he pretty much knows which of his products can be used for animals as well as people. He doesn't only make nutritional products, but has a whole line of products for clearing pathways thru-out the body to heal old injuries, as well as does phase 1, 2 and more of cleansing of the liver and other organs, he also provides perfect foods, power drinks, and more. He just added Gogi berries to his line of food products.

Sorry to be so long winded..


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> I will say that sometimes it's a good idea to give them motivation to try. Sometimes the act of taking care of yourself, feeding yourself and generally getting off your duff to live is a good thing--it can sometimes perk somebody up when nothing else will. Reti, *you might actually try stopping feeding her for a day or two to see if she'll start picking up the slack.
> Pidgey*





Hi Pidgey,

You are absolutely correct, as my husband said the same thing, as he works with head trauma patients, and sometimes they do have to get hungry before they take the initiative. Now that I have held Becky, she does definitely seem to be out in la-la land, and only time will tell. She is still too skinny though, to let her go without a meal. She is standing on both feet and showing a great interest to the sounds of the city and the smell of the air when she is outside. I'm hoping with the seeds, she will enjoy the feel on her tongue and the taste which may inititate her to try to pick them up some time soon.

I think the combination of good nutrition, eating a normal diet of pigeon seeds (small for now) and the kefir will enable her to have the best shot at some type of future, especially since we don't know anymore then the obvious. 

I also think she should still get a few rounds of the juvenile bird formula for now to give her the extra support she needs. The kefir is enabling her to assimilate and use as much of what is in the food as far as nutrition goes and put on some weight also. Hopefully this will give her the jump start she needs, as well as the Garlic, Allicidin, Neem..(.you name it we got it) as only with time we will see.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

If you haven't started her n the DHLA that would also be super for her healing and detox. Five drops daily in a tiny bit of water, and syringe it down.

You have done a terrific job with her, and the supportive care will give her the best chance of life, as well as hope for some type of future.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it weren't for the obvious trauma at the onset, you'd almost (in desperation) want to try a systemic antifungal like Itraconazole, especially seeing as how just about everything else has been tried. It's always tough with the ones that need a lot of time--you have to be so patient and that didn't come as part of my original software package. Sunbeamer has been recuperating for two months now and that sure has been a very loooooooonnngg, slooooooooooowww process. She's definitely turned the corner now since she's managing herself out there. She can even avoid getting caught now pretty well which she never used to be able to do.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*"Who's got-a-tummy? - YOU'VE got-a-tummy!"*

*Phil*,

I think all of us members at PT *deserve* to see you on a video sometime. That is so funny. 

*Reti*, 

About her being depressed: she may have left a mate and nest behind. That should depress anyone. 

Two years ago, I saw a male pigeon a mile or so from my place, with black gunky tarry-looking stuff on his right foot. I dropped seed and had him cornered in a doorway, and should have then and there caught him, but back then I was a bit timid about the whole business, and I lost my chance. The foot eventually fell off after a couple of months. He would sit apart from the other pigeons on a window ledge at a busy streetcar intersection, with lots of people coming and going, and showed little interest in the small bits of seed I dropped for him in the presence of the ten or so pigeons who congregated there (next to a bakery and standing-at-the-table cafe). For several weeks I would spend a half-hour once or twice a day staring at him, getting his attention, and letting him know I had food for him (which I had to drop secretively for him - too many people angry and threatening to call the police about my feeding wild pigeons). He slowly perked up and his interest in life returned. I fed him for a couple of months more, making special daily trips for him, until he disappeared, either taken by a raptor or by progressive infection from the foot. He was clearly depressed for a while though, and his attitude clearly changed over time. It was obvious only from long observation (I had to wait at that streetcar stop ten to twenty minutes, twice a day, to change streetcars, that year).

Patience.

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I think the supportive care for now, is the best route, one already in place for
her. It's very wise to see if she'll eat on her own in the morning when hungriest
and then follow up w/feedings if she shows no interest. A bird that's underweight just doesn't provide much 'wiggle' room in terms of what could go
wrong in the future and response time to correct.

Plumb's doesn't show a side effect specifically for birds, but for both dogs and cats, it lists hepatoxicity and anorexia, so perhaps a bit too strong for her right
now. Nystatin would be better tolerated if she does have a yeast infection, although if giving ACV regularly, it would seem a softer approach for a fragile
bird.

And, YES, Larry, a video of Phil doing the 'Who's got a tummy?" would be
so cool  ....maybe one day when you have the time, Phil?

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> If it weren't for the obvious trauma at the onset, you'd almost (in desperation) want to try a systemic antifungal like Itraconazole, especially seeing as how just about everything else has been tried.
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey,

I think we have the anti-fungal covered with both Allicidin and Neem oil, just in case.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I was speaking of the possibility that the bird has some kind of fungal infection deep within the tissues of the body. Given the trauma that this bird has, it's more likely that the trauma bears the full responsibility for the symptoms. If that evidence weren't there, then you'd be more likely to consider a systemic antifungal. Lady Tarheel told the story about a bird once that didn't improve until it went on Itraconazole and Jazaroo had even suggested to me the possibility that YoYo was so affected, because sometimes neurological symptoms can be caused by fungal infections.

Now, if it truly were a systemic fungal infection, you really would require a systemic antifungal because Allicin in any form isn't practically useful in traveling through the body to tissues for that purpose, its benefits would be limited to fungal infections of the upper GI. There are possible presentations where that would be of value, for instance if an aspergillus infection in the crop was producing aflatoxins that were being absorbed into the body, but I haven't read any specifics about that. If Aspergillus (or some other fungus) has literally invaded the body and generated disseminated foci, the only thing that's got a snowball's chance in... a very inhospitable place... is a systemic antifungal.

The larger question in such a case would be why the body lost the battle to the invasion in the first place. There are usually two possibilites: massive inoculation, overwhelming the immune system; or the immune system has been suppressed by something else.

I haven't done any looking into Neem oil.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This post is about the bird Pidgey mentioned: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=117731&postcount=1

To the best of my memory, we have had to use this drug only 4-5 times in all the years we've rehabbed but I firmly believe Milo would have died had it not been for the Itraconazole. Even then, it took many weeks for him to fully recover and regain the weight he had lost.

Reti, is she strong enough to be x-rayed and possibly determine if it is a yeast infection that is going on because of the trauma she suffered? That way, you could eliminate the guessing on what to use. Sometimes we have to bite the bullet and go with something stronger.

Also, I would feed her formula at least 2 x a day to try to build up her strength.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, Tressa, fp, Larry, everyone..!


Thanks Tressa for the info on Dr. Marshal...nice to see my beloved Gogi Berries getting some play...

One thing too with this Bird, is that 'something' may well have been effecting them prior to their injury...something which may have had them feeling poorly or less than top notch, for a preditor to have gotten them in the first place...

Not necessarily of course, but could be...

'Worms' could be just such a culprit, and if she seems strong enough for a Worming regimen, I think it would be worth considering.

Otherwise, if it was me, I'd tube-feed the best most nutritious formulas I can make, and feed her early and often and keep her stuffed within whatever limits of her ability to process it.

She will start eating on her own when she feels like it, and I see no harm to stuff her every day till then. The best Nutrition, and plenty of it will certainly benifit whatever her situation is ( or make for lots of really fat, juicy, healthy Worms, too) which at some point will get her that much closer to feeling like her old self again and be pecking on her own.

Otherwise, as everyone knows here, nerve or spine or low-back-spine injuries where Nerve symptoms are going on...just take time, and maybe lots of time too.

If she is symetrical in her abilities to move...if her Tail fans out evenly when she is lifted or when she stretches, and if ger heneral co-ordination is good, these are of course excellent things...

The dopey or drunk-like is hard to evaluate...but it sounds like it is progressing/diminishing, so...

About all I can add then, in summary, is maybe to Worm her in a few well times cources over the next few weeks...

And, for now, to keep her very well fed with the best chow you can muster.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey,

Thank you for the explanation, i appreciate it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you so much fp, Pidgey, Phil, Larry, Treesa, Maggie.
Putting all the information together, I am considering fungal infection, worms, depression and trauma, which we know she has for sure.
She is way to fragile to give her a systemic antifungal, Pidgey, I don't dare. I had one bird with aspergillosis diagnosed two weeks after symptoms started. I wasn't working then and he was the only sick bird I had at that time so I was with him 24/7. His symptoms were very different, he wasn't eating and he was sleeping constantly and was fluffed. I was feeding him and he was loosing weight progressively, in the last days he was starting to throw up too. That poor bird was sick and looked very sick. Eventually after running all possible tests and giving her a whole cabinet of meds, my vet thought to do an endoscopy, the bird was dying. That is when we saw the fungus on her air sacs. We started treatment right away, lamisil by nebulizer and itraconazole po. Two days later my beloved Sir B. died.
Now, Becky has none of those symptoms and she toletates food well, gains weight and doesn't look or act sick in any way. She is up to 300gr, poops are great and is up all day alert watching the other birds and looking out the window.
She could have worms, many ferals do, but her poops are great I will start her on garlic once she gains a few more grams. Actually I think I will have a fecal done this week, probably on Thursday.
Her equilibrium is getting better, her leg is getting better, she is standing more and preening occassionaly, so all that is promising. Only thing, she doesn't want to eat. I am giving her once a day formula with all the goodies, including wheat germ oil, neem,DHLA, ACV. She is getting kefir twice a day and seeds twice a day, a teaspoon each time, well some get dropped to the floor, but mostly do go down.

I will let you know what the fecal shows.
Thanks for all your input, I will watch her more the next couple of days for any other symptoms as I will be home. I am planing on letting her out of her tank too for a bit tomorrow. She is flying, so she might enjoy it.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Maggie, I could take her to the vet for an xray, but they anesthetize the birds fot that and I don't think an anesthesia is what she needs now

Larry, she certainly might be depressed, if this is it, I hope it will go away soon.

fp, that is what she is getting now, supportive care and it works a bit at a time. I don't let her go past 10am without food.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> .......
> 
> fp, that is what she is getting now, supportive care and it works a bit at a time. I don't let her go past 10am without food.
> 
> Reti


Yes, that's what I believed you to be saying earlier, and think this is a wise
route. Enough time for her to select, but if she doesn't, intervening so that 
she gets the nutrition she needs to continue building her strength and putting
on some weight. Look forward to your update.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, Reti, Aspergillosis is virtually a death sentence but that's not the only form of intrusion that Aspergillus can take. It can go almost anywhere in the body although that's almost the wrong imagery--it can be carried virtually anywhere in the body. It's the organs that usually get it though. I don't think they call it "Aspergillosis" when it sets up shop in other organs than the lungs, though.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Now that I have a little more time I wil do some research about it. Even my medical books don't have too much info on it since it is an opportunistic infection.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not even sure that "infection" is the right word since it's more like a plant. Aspergillus is ubiquitous (everywhere) and so we're all fighting it off most of the time which is fairly easy to do. It's when you're immunocompromised or get a horrible dose at one time that you have problems. Just key in "Aspergillus" into the search function of Adobe when you open the big book and you'll be reading for quite awhile.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

how is Becky today?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> how is Becky today?


Today she wasn't that good, guess she had a bad day.
I took her out for some exercise and she flew right back to the tank and was jumping up and down to get in. So, I put her in.
I fed her and gave her all the goodies. Otherwise she was alert and content in her tank.
We'll see tomorrow.

Thanks Pidgey, that was the first book I was going to look into.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

We might have a diagnosis, not sure yet, and I don't know how to procede from here.
Lee had pneumonia last week and was treated with Levaquin. He got a little better but never really recovered completely and after finishing his treatment it came back.
We went to his dr today and we think he might have Chlamydia pneumonia. His symptoms fit the picture, the other diferential diagnosis is Mycoplasma pneumonia.
we didn't run tests cause of my concern that chlamydia is reportable and I don't know what could happen. Never dealt with this before.
Lee is on Tetracycline and if he does better in a few days then probably that is what it is.
I am considering to put Becky on tetra. I read in the big book, she might have only vague symptoms, but her refusal to eat, the leg weakness and sunken eyes might be an indication.
I couldn't find what the dose of tetracycline for pigeons is.
Will go back now and read a little more, just wanted to get some input from you too.

Thanks

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tetracycline is shown as 200 to 250 milligram per kilogram, BID when given orally. That's the maximum and it may be possible to give less. I originally sent you some Doxycycline, too, which may be better but the dosage is different.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Tetracycline is shown as 200 to 250 milligram per kilogram, BID when given orally. That's the maximum and it may be possible to give less. I originally sent you some Doxycycline, too, which may be better but the dosage is different.
> 
> Pidgey



Then I still should have it. Actually, I am sure I have it.
How do I give it?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How much does the bird weigh?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> How much does the bird weigh?
> 
> Pidgey


300gr.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I can do this--I can go home and review in the other book to see if it gives specifics for that disease and how much to give for pigeons. I'll have to read the instructions on the powder and figure out what percentage is medicine. I'll figure out a dose for the bird based on weight and the best that I can come up with out of the books and extrapolation. Then, I'll see how that littlest measuring cup from that set works out. It's likely that it'll be measurable with that in one way, shape or form on a dose or day basis.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As it happens, the smallest scoop (0.3 cc's) holds 210 milligrams but you need to scoop up a fraction of the cup's worth, hold it upright and tap to settle it and then get more and keep it up until you've gotten it full to level. Then you actually need to tap the fool out of it to get it all out.

The powder is 30% medicine so one scoop contains 63 actual milligrams of medication. I'm currently trying to get a dosage.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, there are a few unknowns but they're not that bad. I gather that Doxycycline given by parenteral administration (some kind of shot or IV) requires more of the medicine that if given orally. Imagine that. (actually, it's not given as frequently due to muscle necrosis so that's sometimes an entire week's dosing that way) Anyhow, we're going to assume for the moment that this is Doxycycline Hyclate powder and that the dosage for a pigeon is 55 mg/kg, PO, BID. That gives us 55 x 0.3 kg = 16.5 milligrams pure med per dose, twice daily or 66 milligrams for 4 doses given over 2 days. So, make a scoopful and divide it into four equal piles and package it however you want to deliver it (small gelcaps would be nice).

If it's not Doxycycline Hyclate powder, then we're into a small overdose but figuring that out can wait for now.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti, 

You said way earlier in the thread that you didn't think Baby Becky could see out of the one eye. Have you tried using a flashlight to confirm that, noting the reactions on both sides?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes, I tried the flashlight and she has pupilary reflex, not sure she can see though as she has no reaction when I move or approach anything on that side.

ok, so can I add like 10cc' of liquid to the scoop and give 2.5cc's twice a day


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, you could. Or 4 cc's and give one cc, twice a day.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, I will get started now.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It appears that if the powder isn't Hyclate, then you need to cut the dosage just about in half. It's certainly not going to hurt to give that first dose like it is, but I still need to research to see if we want to keep that rate up.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> It appears that if the powder isn't Hyclate, then you need to cut the dosage just about in half. It's certainly not going to hurt to give that first dose like it is, but I still need to research to see if we want to keep that rate up.
> 
> Pidgey



How will you know if it is Hyclate?

Thank you so much, Pidgey.

Now do you think my other birds are at risk? I mean especially to contract it and become carriers.
Becky is in the room, but in a tank, so there is no close contact between her and my birds.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It may be that the stuff is the Hyclate. Apparently, the big difference is that the Monohydrate has very limited water soluability while the hyclate is very water soluable. The hyclate appears to be twice the molecular size:

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/doxycyc.htm

...which would mean that you've got half the medicine, molecule per molecule. That might explain the difference that I got out of the other book. 

I did a soluability test of that powder in water and even in extreme proportion (way too much Doxy) it completely disappears except for rendering a color.

Still working on it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

According to the instructions on the jar of the stuff, it's meant to be given at 1 teaspoon per gallon as a preventative and 2 teaspoons per gallon as a curative. It doesn't say as a preventative or curative of what (haha). But, in a note out of the Big Book in the Columbiform chapter, it says that pigeons typically consume between 5 and 8% of their body weight in water per day (page 1206). Extrapolating from that (and assuming I got it right), the dosage per kilogram would be between 28 and 44 milligrams per day.* That would extrapolate out to between 8.4 and 13.2 milligrams per day for Baby Becky with the midrange being 10.8 milligrams per day. That would mean that the 0.3 cc scoop would be 6 days worth so divide into 12 doses.

That said, it's looking more like the lesser dosage (the half one) even though you'd think the medication was the Hyclate for its water soluability. I'd love to contact the manufacturer or even the packager if only I knew who it was.

Anyhow, my guess would be to go with the lower dosing at this point to stay in keeping with the most probable consumption as shown for using it in water. Incidentally, the range of water consumption that Baby Becky would be taking in should be in the 15 to 24 cc's per day range. Can you verify how much she's drinking?

Pidgey


*Two teaspoons equals 10cc; one 0.3cc scoop equals 210 milligrams powder OR 63 milligrams drug @ 30% weight; 

Therefore: 10cc/0.3cc*63mg=2,100 mg drug per 2 teaspoons.

Therefore, at a 5% body weight water consumption: 2100mg/(3785g/0.05/1000g per kg)=27.7 milligrams per kilogram of bird per day.
Therefore, at a 8% body weight water consumption: 2100mg/(3785g/0.08/1000g per kg)=44.4 milligrams per kilogram of bird per day.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> His symptoms fit the picture, the other diferential diagnosis is Mycoplasma pneumonia.


Now, I think we should also consider this one as an exercise if nothing else and see what we'd have to add or change in case it turns out that you need to treat for that--looks like chapter 38 of the Big Book.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti, I'm sorry to hear about Lee and the possible issues involved. I remembered reading your initial post in Cynthia's thread and wondering how
everything would shake down for you. You are both in my thoughts and prayers, I hope that everything will resolve w/time.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you fp, we need some prayers here.
I do hope it is some acute pulmonary disease and not chronic pigeons lung (doubt it). At least the acute disease we can fight. Would it be chronic, I don't know what I would do. But looks like it is acute so far.

Pidgey, I don't think Becky is drinking at all other than what I am giving her. I never saw her drink and I am giving her about 6cc's of water a day and 25 cc's of formula.
I will have to stop the formula since it has calcium in it and feed her only seeds now.

I am totally confused about the dose now.
I would have to mix a new medication w/ one scoop medicine and 12 cc's of liquid? Then give her one cc twice a day. Does that sound right?
How about if I mix Lee's tetracycline, the 250mg capsule, in liquid wouldn't that be easier to dose?

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> I am totally confused about the dose now.
> I would have to mix a new medication w/ one scoop medicine and 12 cc's of liquid? Then give her one cc twice a day. Does that sound right?
> How about if I mix Lee's tetracycline, the 250mg capsule, in liquid wouldn't that be easier to dose?
> 
> Reti


I posted this earlier (the underlined text following this edit) as it agrees with the packaged instructions. You can go by that if you want to, but read the next post down as well. I decided what I'd do under the circumstances and it leans towards the numbers out of the formularies instead of going with the packaged instructions from the jar: How have you got it mixed right now--with the 4cc or more? Just take whatever you've already mixed up and divide the total by 12 and give whatever that dosage is unless you'd like to make a specific dosage like 1cc per dose--then you'd need to top it off until you've got about 11cc right now.

Don't bother with Lee's meds--he probably needs all of that anyhow.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of course, it's confusing because there are too many different possibilities in all the literatures and not a lot to help you decide which way to go. If it were the Hyclate (like the soluability test suggests), we'd want it to be the double dose which was the first dosing rate that I gave you for the very first shot into the bird. But the package instructions don't agree with that idea at all although typical medications packaged for pigeons are notoriously on the light side for true therapeutic usage . Now that we're really getting into it, though, it's not an easy thing to figure even if you were going to give the bird Lee's medicine due to the goofy way all the various protocols are given. It's nice with Baytril because there aren't a lot of numbers given except for variations in the formulations--but the hard medicine dose is what it is. It's just not so with this stuff.

The dose as figured in the post above (with the dark red notation) is derived from the instructions on the jar that it came from and that gives you what those numbers should be. I just did all the math on there to try and figure out their basis for dosing. It doesn't exactly match what's in the Big Book but then the Big Book doesn't exactly match the Two New Big Books. 

In the old Big Book on page 471, it shows different dosing strategies for the same drug and not only that but two levels for with and without grit. With grit, the old doses were either 7.5mg/kg,PO,QID; 25mg/kg,PO,BID; or 150mg/kg,PO,SID. I suppose that all of those were aimed at keeping the bird's blood serum level above an MIC threshold all day long and given the half-life deal, the less dosings you gave, the more you needed to give exponentially.

In theory, you'd think that the stuff posted in the Two New Big Books would be updated and somehow more definitive. It doesn't give a 4x/day dosing rate in there but the old 2x/day (25mg/kg,PO,BID with grit) is still in agreement. That dosing protocol works out to a "one-full-scoop-to-be-spread-out-over-four-days" idea. BUT, the package instructions would, however, lean toward a "one-full-scoop-to-be-spread-out-over-six-days" idea. Dosing by putting it in their water and letting them drink all they want is an aggravingly imprecise way to do it, though, because they WILL drink more water in summer and low humidity anyhow.

I guess if it were me and all considered, I'd lean towards the "one-full-scoop-to-be-spread-out-over-four-days-for-this-bird-in-particular" deal which is the most consistent number in all the formularies to be used with grit, so don't worry about the calcium in the formula that you're feeding. I have given you all the information that I could so that you could make your own decision, though.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks, Pidgey, you've been of great help.
So, I will spread the mix I made last night over four days, instead of the two you first suggested, right?
Hope I got it right.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's what I would do. Jazaroo and I have also been discussing this aside. He's personally taken the stuff before (you don't mind me telling this, do you, Jaz?) and his doctor asked him about whether he'd had any liver troubles and such beforehand. He said he felt crappier while on this med than any other he's ever had to take so he's basically advocating towards not overdosing. Incidentally, he mentioned that he lost his appetite while on it so maybe it's a great weight loss program! I remember taking an antibiotic once that I had to take with meals and it was horrible--I didn't WANT to eat anything for the whole ten days (cure worse than the disease).

We'll be looking at it even further but for now, yes, go with spreading it over four days.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh yeah, while researching the tetracyclines last night I did read that it is catabolic. That won't hurt Lee for sure.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lee doesn't really get on the forum and read this stuff, huh? Probably a good thing.

Got a note from Jaz and he's happier now. I, for one, prefer to buy the meds from the pigeon houses that are more specific about their composition and active ingredients. I got this stuff and it's obviously been packaged for flock treatment. There is a real difference in how that's done and figured versus dosing individual birds.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey, no problem.

Reti, I agree with Pidgey, I don't think the calcium the formula contains is a big concern. You can always feed 2-3 hours away from when you give the meds if you like.

Good luck with your little one and a fast recovery for Lee.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Another point raised earlier was about it spreading to other birds. I'd make sure that all poop from Baby Becky (and Lee) got removed expeditiously and sweep up all dust carefully from Baby Becky's area. Ventilate outdoors if you can by opening the nearest window and using a fan pressed up against the screen blowing outward to exhaust dust particles.

Did Lee only get sick after Becky came?

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I'm sorry to hear that your husband has been sick with pneumonia potentially caused by Chlamydia/Pssiticosis I hope he gets better soon. 

I had nothing to offer or suggest with Becky so I've kept out of it but I'm glad to hear that she is still alive and recouperating with good care. It sounds like it's going to be a long haul for you and her.

Crossing fingers that Lee and Becky get on the road to better health soon.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Nope, Lee doesn't go on PT. I have no trouble telling him though how overweight he is.

My birds don't come in contact with Becky's droppings (neither Lee's, I hope). That is why the tank is excellent for rehab. I clean it out daily in the bathroom with Basic G, and every time she poops I wipe it with vinegar. I was thinking to move her back in the living room, but that is where Lee lives, so might not be a good idea to move her back. I think I need a bigger place and very soon.
In the laundry room, which is pretty big, she will be bored too much. The bedroom belongs to the cats.
Yes, Lee got sick about a week after we got Becky and when she was living in the living room.

Thank you Brad, hope they both recover and soon. Having a sick hubby is a full time job. Luckily he never complained about the birds, or me bringing in all the birds or anything like that. So, I should give him some credit.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Update*

I thought I post a quick update.
Lee is doing ok, much better, responding to the treatment. He still has some breathing difficulties here and there.

Becky is much the same. Still alert and everything, she is standing, walking wobbly, but better than before, she also preens occasionally. She doesn't look sick in any way, but she absolutely won't touch her food.
I even went until 11am without feeding and I offered her a small bowl full of sawflower seeds yesterday, no pijie ever refuses those, right? She didn't even look at them.
I am at loss here.
She also won't drink.
Her weight is up, 310gr. I feed her two-three times a day, but I so wish she would start eating.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've known several pigeons that wouldn't eat safflower seeds, probably due to never having been introduced to them before. YoYo wouldn't touch 'em. 

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is my first one. But the thing is she won't eat anything or drink anything.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> I thought I post a quick update.
> Lee is doing ok, much better, responding to the treatment. He still has some breathing difficulties here and there.
> 
> Becky is much the same. Still alert and everything, she is standing, walking wobbly, but better than before, she also preens occasionally. She doesn't look sick in any way, but she absolutely won't touch her food.
> ...



Sure glad to hear that Lee is doing better with his treatment, Reti. I know that must be a relief. 

As for turning down Safflower seeds, they are _all_ DD would eat for a while....
then she decided that she had another favorite, so I'd pick those out for her and offer in my hand. Her favorite seed kept changing and this went on for a few weeks 'til I realized that my 'gutter snipe' had turned into something on par w/My Fair Lady otherwise known as the Princess and the Pea. Her real preference is being pampered in whatever 'new' way strikes her fancy, lol... Not saying this is what is happening w/yours, but it can happen. Hopefully Becky is still suffering a bit from confusion and this will straighten itself out over time.  
I also think that they do not have as large an appetite w/some meds.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, don't know if this will help any but our Mr. Humphries went from about July until around October without eating. We had to hand feed him with both Exact and "seed pops". He too had been badly injured so I don't know if it was the trauma from his fall or not. He did start eating on his own during October and now eats us out of house and home.  

This was a thread I did about his eating. Patience may be the answer.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12254


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Patience may be the answer.


The problem with patience is that it always seems to take so @#$% much time...

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Now Pidgey, what else do you have to do?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> The problem with patience is that it always seems to take so @#$% much time...
> 
> Pidgey


Darn! I'm so sorry to hear that! And here I thought that "patience" was *surely* your middle name!    

Have used the same technique myself at times...when in doubt, have patience...yeah, right!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Personally, I'd shoot for Phil's "Who's got a tummy?" routine. I'm actually not kidding--I'd try to re-teach the bird to eat. It couldn't do any harm and might do some good.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Personally, I'd shoot for Phil's "Who's got a tummy?" routine. I'm actually not kidding--I'd try to re-teach the bird to eat. It couldn't do any harm and might do some good.
> 
> Pidgey


GREAT IDEA and the thought did briefly cross my mind. Since I didn't mention, the thought was that brief! 

ROFL! Phil, you REALLY did it THIS time! From NOW ON, you are gonna be known as *"Who's Got A Tummy PHIL*!"    

Sorry, Phil, but the more I think about it, the more I'm laughing...you ARE the greatest with those names!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is what happens, I start laughing, probably I don't even do it right and she looks at me like "what the heck is she doing now".
She tamed a lot, sits on my lap and looks around, then when it is feeding time, she struggles, hates it.
Thanks Maggie, I guess I have to be more patient, but as Pidgey mentioned, it takes soooo long.
Thank you fp, little bird, Pidgey, Maggie, mr. Squeaks.
I appreciate your input.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I am glad to hear Lee is doing better, what a relief.

Sounds like Becky is improving, as long as you keep seeing changes in her-little accomplishments each day, she will eventually come around and eat. Perhaps if she can watch another brd eating next to her, that might help, especially early in the morning when everyone runs to the feeders with great gusto.

I can understand how stressful it can get with all the chores and then having to feed this grown bird, but it will come.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> That is what happens, I start laughing, probably I don't even do it right and she looks at me like "what the heck is she doing now"...
> Thank you... mr. Squeaks... I appreciate your input.


Yep, I think MIZZZ Squawks' input here has been detrimental if now you can't even manage the proper technique without laughing. This is serious business and you're going to have to  up in order to save that bird. 

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

ok, pidgey, I'll  up. I'll do anything to save the pij.

Thanks, Treesa, I am just not all that patient as I thought I was.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Yep, I think MIZZZ Squawks' input here has been detrimental if now you can't even manage the proper technique without laughing. This is serious business and you're going to have to  up in order to save that bird.
> 
> Pidgey


HUH??? WHAT???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> ROFL! Phil, you REALLY did it THIS time! From NOW ON, you are gonna be known as *"Who's Got A Tummy PHIL*!"
> 
> Sorry, Phil, but the more I think about it, the more I'm laughing...you ARE the greatest with those names!





Reti said:


> That is what happens, I start laughing





Pidgey said:


> Yep, I think MIZZZ Squawks' input here has been detrimental if now you can't even manage the proper technique without laughing. This is serious business and you're going to have to  up in order to save that bird.
> 
> Pidgey





mr squeaks said:


> HUH??? WHAT???


It's all your fault, Squawks. If you hadn't posted that post and Reti hadn't read it, she wouldn't be laughing her hiney off when trying to perform the completely serious medical procedure listed in the textbooks as the "Who's got a tummy?" technique by Dr. Phil. 

This is a medical emergency, Squawks, and is no laughing matter. If you can't keep your giggles to yourself...

Pidgey the Morbidly Serious


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

little bird said:


> Reti.....maybe you should offer her some bread crumbs..Old pizza crust...hotdog bun...???


I think this is worth trying, Reti. Perhaps she will recognize junk food as food and start to eat. Maybe also try some totally different things like pieces of dry dog or cat food smashed into seed sized pieces .. crumbled up crackers, corn flakes or Cheerios .. crumbled cornbread .. sprouted seed ????

I know it is very, very worrisome and frustrating when you can't get an adult to eat on their own or when a hand raised baby just won't wean.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Guys, you crack me up   

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, hi everyone...


Lol...

Now too, so far as her eating...pecking...

When one 'pecks' with them, one usually just 'pecks' with a crook'd index finger, as if it were something of a non-opening Beak.

Of course too, it is best if pecking 'with' an erstwhile Adult who has not been eating, pecking with them to inspire them to eat...it is best if we do it someplace at least medium high, and Table Top height is about allright but no lower, unless we are sure they are feeling very "safe" on the floor or other "low' area, and usually they will not feel safe there...so, within reason, the higher the better, so long as it is physically safe to arrange and guard them from falls and so on. Just another 'little' thing...that can make a difference...

Now, another variation of 'pecking with them', which is worth considering for some ocasions ( such as this one), is to do a similar thing but with one's Thumb and index Fingertips, and to pinch a few Seeds, lifting them a couple inches, and letting them go...so that the Beak-like action of the Thumb and Index Fingers are clearly 'eating' seeds, or at least grasping them, and dramatically letting them go which will tend to catch their attention. And, of couse, one does this in approach and in the deed, one does it ar their knee level more or less..keeping one's hand well below their Eye level at all times.

Now, I do the "Who's-got-a-Tummy? - YOU'VE-got-a-Tummy!" with most ( maybe all ) Birds I get in here, regardless of what their condition is, simply because they find it an easy way to get used 'enough' to ( "low" ) hands, for it to be easier for me to do successive examinations or whatever fussings I feel need to be done. And I peck with them when I deliver Seeds so they deide I am 'Okay' and that I am not a "Seed-Hog" like some can be.

And, I have noticed that with those who were not feeling well appetite wise ( let alone the rest of it) would somtimes show some inspirations to start eating AS I was doing this ( doing the "W-G-A-T...Y-G-A-T!") where I am literally ( very gently of course) massaging their below-the-Keel area...and then they start pecking at whatever Seeds are in reach...so...yes, I'd say it is definitely worth a try...and remember to bring your hand in below their eye level, and slowly, while talking soothingly, and to have the Seeds already in pecking distance for them, just-in-case...


Best wishes!

Phil
Who now has 'Steriophonic' Doves, who decided to synchronize their "Wooo-Hoooooo!-whooo-whooo-whooo!" calls so that they happen exactly together from different parts of the rooms here...in...
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

P.S.


Really, with this 'method', I gently stroke or massage the lower Crop area, the Keel sides and as far back as I can reach from their front without being immodestly intrusive, which is then as far as where their Legs more or less tend to be.

Anyway, in the mantions above, I had said 'below their Keels', and so I wanted to clearify.



Have fun!

Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

P.P.S.

...and, I 'Narrate' of course...

And for a reluctant eater, I would do the "Who's-got-a-Tummy? You've-got-a-Tummy!" in a really soft 'positive' happy quiet sort of voice, and then, if I get onto some 'pinch-pecking' matters, I comment things like "Oooo! Now these are some really NICE Seeds here...Mmmmmmm...oh yeaaaaa, I like those White ones, AND those little Tan ones, and those long shaped ones too. Hey, you ought to try some of these, they feel real good in the old Crop you know...Uhhhhh-huhhhhh..." - and stuff like that, soothingly of course, happy tones...

...and I might even eat a few literally, since I do in fact like them! I snack on them all the time...

Anyway...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am trying to do the tummy thing, I think it is so cute, but have no idea if I do it correctly. She is pretty content and looks ok, but when I do it, she doesn't even look at the seeds, she starts looking around very interested in everything else but the seeds. She even turns around so she doesn't have to see them.
For some reason, she just doesn't want to eat and the only time she struggles with me is when I feed her.
I hope she will start soon eating on her own, before I start school again.

Thanks Phil. I love your techiques.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, she might need to actually get hungry before it will work. Now that you're getting some weight on her, you might give her a day's respite and give it a shot.

I've got a tummy!

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, she might need to actually get hungry before it will work. Now that you're getting some weight on her, you might give her a day's respite and give it a shot.
> 
> I've got a tummy!
> 
> Pidgey



I have moved her breakfast time to 11am, hoping she would be hungry from her last feed at 7pm, no luck so far.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,



Crush up some Anise Seeds and put them on top of her Seeds...

Just one-more-thing one can do which s-o-m-t-i-m-e-s 'helps'...

When she DOES finally start eating, we will all get to wonder what, if anything DID make the difference! Or if she finally 'just' felt like it all on her own independant 'reasons'...

Lol...


Now, since I kind of loose track sometimes ( often, probably... is she still on any meds?

How are the old injurys looking?

How's the Eye?

Legs?

Stuff like that?


Best wishes you two!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, I let her out of her tank today for a couple of hours and she seemed to enjoy it. She flew around and tried to avoid some nasty males who were trying to harrass her. Usually when I let her out, all she did is fly back to her tank, trying to get in, today for the first time she stayed out.
When I put her back in the tank she DRANK water. First time ever I saw her drink. She might have even tried to eat when I wasn't loking as I noticed some seeds in her water.
I didn't feed her today (I feel guilty) but I will try not to, see if she starts pecking at the seeds.
BTW, she walks funny, kind of tiptoed. I guess might be from the head injury?

Phil, she loves her crop and keel massages  , so cute, she stands there and looks at me (and begs for more).

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess the bird has learned to cope with her deficiencies by acquiring a drinking habit. Seems normal.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

That sounds like a very positive improvement. I hope she gets into the habit of eating too.

Are you going to supplement feed her in the evening?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> That sounds like a very positive improvement. I hope she gets into the habit of eating too.
> 
> Are you going to supplement feed her in the evening?


Well, I have to feed her. I don't think she ate, she has no poops.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I would definitely feed her at night. She sounds just like Mr. Humphries. I would let him go all day, feed him at night and start the training all over again the next day until finally he would eat on his own. We don't know what kind of head injury may have occured along with his leg fractures when he fell from the Home Depot canopy.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Maggie, I will keep on feeding her at night and if I see she is loosing weight I will feed her also throughout the day.
How are Humphrey's legs now?

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, after going to 3 vets and them doing everything they could to help him walk normally, he never could. He just had too many fractures to deal with. His legs are bowed (like he has been riding a horse) and one foot curls but he can walk and stand up a little but the best thing is he can go out to the aviary during the day and perch with the others. He is our little dude and when Lewis brings him every night he knows he has his safflour seed waiting for him. We don't want to tire him too much by keeping him outside day and night. He is so used to the routine now he would probably get mad if we left him out there.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, how cute, maggie. They learn their routine, don't they.I am glad he is doing so good.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Update*

Becky is doing well, except for her eating. She is not eating on her own, not even after a whole day of starving. 
She lost 20gr, so I am back on feeding her at least twice a day. 
Otherwise she is doing good, alert, flying, preening, even bathing. 
She still has a sunken in eye, but she can see out of it. She walks ok, not that well yet, but she can perch fine.
I tried Anise seeds, I tried company, but she won't eat.
I hope she will surprise me one day, like Maggie's baby.

Lee is not doing so well. We have been to the dr every single day this week. He is coughing and is short of breath, so our primary care physician sent us to a pulmonologist. He found that his oxygen saturation is very low (75 when walking, 85 when resting) A CT scan showed pulmonary edema. 
He is on a diuretic now and tomorrow he has an apointment with the cardiologist.
We have no clue what is going on, just a tons of theories. One good thing, the pulmonoligist excluded pigeon diseases or even pigeon lung.
We'll see tomorrow what the cardiologist thinks.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

CHF--Congestive Heart Failure. I have another friend that recently had to go into the hospital due to that and they also discovered that one chamber of the heart (one of the upper ones) was in constant fibrillation. They have not gotten it to go out of fibrillation yet and it's been since Monday before Christmas. However, he is at home now and recuperating.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is our thought, but why would that happen. He had his cardiology exam only three months ago, with exercise stress test and everything, all results were normal. 
I even thought he might have had an MI a month ago, when he strated having chest pain and cough and was diagnosed with penumonia, but our dr doesn't think so. 
Lee has perfect BP, low cholesterol, quit smoking 4 years ago, no diabetes or anything that would cause an acute heart failure. The only thing is he is overweight.
We'll see tomorrow I guess.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know. There are some types of heart attacks that are due to nerve disorders instead of vascular problems, etc. I would think that a Myocardial Infarction wouldn't be something that you'd experience, pass off as a transient thing and then go back to sleep though.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

There are silent MI's. 
My cousin was 48 when he experienced mild stomach painand indigestion. He was treated for a week with antacids and finaly his dentist friend send him for a ECG.

I've seen the strangest things happen. I've seen in the clinic a few people who had MI's and never knew, the ECG showed old scarring, but they were always fine. This can happen when a smaller artery gets blocked.
I hope it is not as bad, but something must explain this new condition.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, come to think about it, that feller that I was a'mentionin'... all his heart stats were good, too. So, I guess it can happen for other reasons like sleep apnea and inactivity.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> You know, come to think about it, that feller that I was a'mentionin'... all his heart stats were good, too. So, I guess it can happen for other reasons like sleep apnea and inactivity.
> 
> Pidgey


You're right. Something to think about.
Lee does have sleep apnea since he gained 70lb and he refused the machine.

Thanks for your input.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It might be hard to locate in any of the Literature, if it is even mentioned at all...

But anyone with Asthma or Sleep Apnea would do well to stay well away from any 'sulphites', such as are often found in dried fruits, store-bought Macaroons, Kosher ones even, Restaurant Salads, and almost all Wines anymore. Read the Labels on all foods or beverages carefully...

I do not know the science or the mechanism, but Suphites can be lethal for people already suffering these complaints.

Too, Caffine when in more than modest amounts, can also have adverse effects for those with Apnea conditions.

Some reading I recall doing quite a while ago asserted that a largely Vegetarian Diet, with correct Fish Oils additionally, can help a great deal.

Good luck everyone!

Good luck Lee..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Reti - Sending Comforting Thoughts, Love And Hugs To You And Lee!

All My Best To You Both!!*


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear this about Lee....

Hope the doctors can get to the bottom of this and fix him up good as new.

Linda


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Sure hope they are able to diagnose and treat Lee's condition quickly. That has to be rough for both of you!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I too am sorry to hear about Lee's condition not being resolved I sure hope that the doctors can get to the bottom of things soon!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear the update about Lee. I pray he will be better and on the road to recovery soon. I sure hope you have some time to enjoy your days off with him and your animal/bird family.

PLEASE let me know if there is anything I can do.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you mr Squeaks, Phil, Linda, TerriB and Brad. I hope we get some answers today.

Phil, thanks for the suggestions, but Lee doesn't really have any of the things you mentioned, still it's good to know though.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> I'm so sorry to hear the update about Lee. I pray he will be better and on the road to recovery soon. I sure hope you have some time to enjoy your days off with him and your animal/bird family.
> 
> PLEASE let me know if there is anything I can do.


Thank you Treesa.
My vacation so far consisted mostly going to dr's. Not fun. I wish I had more time to spend with my babies. Oh well, I still have two weeks, hope I will have more time.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Reti,

I've been thinking of you and Lee and hope that he will soon be feeling better. 

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti, hoping things improve for you and Lee and that a definitive diagnosis will
be available to you soon that will give you something you can work with.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks fp and Terry.

Well, we still have no answer of what is wrong with Lee.
All cardiac tests came back negative, his heart is fine. The cardiologist thinks he has some kind of pneumonitis. He ordered a chlamydia test but Lee had to to refuse it. Besides I don't think it is chlamydia anymore.
Next week we go back to the pulmonologist, see what he thinks now.
Hate mystery illnesses.
Now I also have all that oxygen machines and cylinders in the house and on top of it all my vacuum cleaner broke.
I will have a breakdown soon. I feel like crying.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

I'm sorry you still don't have a diagnosis, I understand how you feel and what you are going thru. Sometimes it seems like there is no end to it.

Please take it easy and take care of yourself. This will be resolved, it may take a little time, but I'm sure there will be an answer. I'm hoping and praying it is soon, please let me know if you need anything.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I am sorry you and Lee are going through this but I am so happy that his heart is fine. It can be worrisome when you can't get a definitive diagnosis.

You know we're all still remembering both of you in our prayers.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

Yes, it is sounding like you are becoming overwhelmed with everything over there I sure hope the skies get brighter soon for you and Lee.

I know this might seem stupid and perhaps totally off base, but is it possible that Lee has developed an allergy to the pigeon danger without it being actual pigeon lung disease? You've never mentioned that he wheezes but some of his symptoms sound like asthma. 

You've never mentioned this possibility after the visits with the pulmonolgist. Seems too simple really but just a thought of what might be going on.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Treesa, Maggie and Brad.

Brad you have a very good point. I was always thinking of pigeon lung but didn't think of allergy. I don't know why the dr's didn't think of that, I did mention that we have a bunch of birds. He had two shoer episodes of wheeezing a few weeks ago.
Thanks for your input, I will mention it to the dr next week.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeon Lung is more the end result of a long chronic allergy. The inflammation from the allergy causes changes in the lung tissues which starts ruining the gas exchange. A fair test is to remove oneself from the allergen for an extended period (a week or more) and see if the symptoms start backing off. Is there anyplace or anyone that you know who could put Lee up for a week that doesn't have birds?

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> Brad you have a very good point. *I was always thinking of pigeon lung but didn't think of allergy.* I don't know why the dr's didn't think of that, I did mention that we have a bunch of birds. He had two shoer episodes of wheeezing a few weeks ago.
> Thanks for your input, I will mention it to the dr next week.
> 
> Reti


Hi Reti,
From my personal experience, I would seriously consider *both*.
I never thought of pigeon lung, because I thought only those with a *large* amount of pigeons were susceptible. Wrong!

Asthma was the only thing that came to mind. However, after Cynthia's illness, I was thinking back & I never had any relief with 'asthma' medications, & I think I tried them all. I also remembered my symptoms went away at night. Asthma symptoms usually increase at night. I hated getting up in the morning. 

During that year, I was put on several short courses of Prednisone by my general physician & my pulmonary guy. Within two days of starting it, I was *symptom free*. Within two days of stopping it, the symptoms returned. It was when I became desperate, that I decided to begin a maintainence dose of Prednisone, AMA. I took 5mg daily for about 3 months. I've not had a problem since.  
Thankfully, I've also had no side effects from the medication.  

I sure hope Lee is able to get to the bottom of his problems. 

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cat hair also causes allergies. Maybe the docs could run a series of allergy tests on Lee.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cindy,

Are you saying that the long course of prednisone (3 months) ended up basically ending the allergy and yet your lifestyle is the same?

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, Cindy & All, 

For myself, I have what the doctor has diagnosed as bronchial asthma. It's not debilitating by any means but I think I developed it about a few years ago, or maybe a bit longer. I never had asthma as a kid or in my teens or 20's. When I get sick with a cold now, it can be bad for my breathing. During the times I sleep, it tends to get worse too as Cindy mentioned.

I think I mentioned to you guys awhile back that about 2.5 years ago, I breathed in a large amount feather dust and dried poop while emptying my shop vac outside. This was before I started wearing a mask but even outside, the dust rose up and I breathed a lot of it in. Not long after this is when I had a bad attack and I didn't even know what it was. I couldn't breathe, I was dizzy and lightheaded, no doubt from lack of oxygen. I went to the Doctor and he gave me salbutarol and I use this occasionally now when I find myself short of breath and it works for me.

Of course there is a whole bunch of other inhalers that one can get to alleviate asthmatic symptoms. Lee might have other underlying lung issues as well like Cindy mentioned and when grouped together are called C.O.P.D.

Reti, I hope that the pulmonologist will do more tests and figure out what exactly is wrong and prescribe something to help him.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Update on Becky*

She is still not eating but I do have some wonderful news.
Today I saw her kiss and preen Candy (who I thought was a girl, got fooled again).
I found Candy in the the yard of the hospital when I had my clinical training back in June. He is a big bird, the biggest I ever saw, currently 700gr. He is more than twice the size of Becky.
Yesterday I noticed him protecting Becky from the other pigeons, he wouldn't let anybody come on the couch, where Becky likes to sit.
Today she was preening him.
Hope he'll also teach her how to eat again.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That is wonderful news, Reti! Maybe now that love is in the air Becky's appetite will return. Candy is a whopper for sure  

Terry


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Congratulations to Becky who has found a new love in her life! 

Candy is so handsome! 

Suzanna


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

That is so wonderful that Becky has connected with Candy. What a gorgeous bird he is!!!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, Becky could not have chosen a more handsome and BIG fella!

Sure wish them BOTH the best! They make a lovely contrast! Maybe "love" will spur the appetite. Must stay in shape for romance, y'know... 

GREAT pictures, Reti...I know you will keep us updated.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Good gracious! That is ONE BIG Pigeon there!

Lol...

Wow..!

Great news for Becky..!

This should perk up her appetite, and everything else too...!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for your nice comments. Yeah, Candy is a big fella and quite solitary, he never wanted anything to do with the other birds, guess he was waiting for the right gal.
He is not only Becky's mate but also her bodyguard, no pigeon dares to bother Becky again.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> Today she was preening him.
> *Hope he'll also teach her how to eat again.*


Amen to that!  If she is preening him, she will be mating, and soon laying eggs. If she even remotely thinks about having babies hatch (which I know you will switch eggs) she will have to learn to FEED them, so she had better learn to EAT on her own.

Hopefully this latest activity will instill the desire to eat on her own.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, thank you for those wonderful pictures. Becky looks like thumbelina beside her boyfriend Candy. He really is a whopper. I'll betcha he gets her eating with him....fingers x'd.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Your pictures are adorable Reti.  
Thanks for sharing them with us.

I hope everything works out well. 

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Cindy,
> 
> *Are you saying that the long course of prednisone (3 months) ended up basically ending the allergy* and yet your lifestyle is the same?
> 
> Pidgey


Yes. However, this is not to say it will work for everyone.

My lifestyle has pretty much returned to normal. I don't have near the energy that I had prior to the illness, but then I attribute *some* of that to age.  
I still clean my aviary everyday, the only difference being I wear a general surgical mask while cleaning. 

I will point out one thing. Prior to the onset of whatever I had, asthma or possibly pigeon lung, I had a cold which worked it's way into my chest. Initially, I dismissed the cough as just that, a lingering cough from a cold. Then the SOB began, fatigue set in, to the point where I couldn't take 5 steps without having to sit down. I couldn't even complete a sentence without having to stop & try to catch my breath. At that point, I knew I was in *big trouble.*

Cindy

After being asked what the medical term for SOB was, I thought I better come back & clarify. 
It means 'Shortness of Breath'.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Treesa, maggie and Cindy.
I'll keep you updated how it goes. So far I didn't see any of them eat, hmm. 

Cindy, I am glad it was a one time thing for you.
Hope it will be for Lee too. He is much better today.
Tomorrow we are back to the pulmonologist, see what he thinks.

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> After being asked what the medical term for SOB was, I thought I better come back & clarify.
> It means 'Shortness of Breath'.



Thank you..........I was wondering.......but could only come up with one meaning......... and somehow didn't think that was correct!!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Good news*

I haven't seen her eat, but I am sure she does.
The past three days I fed her only at night and she gained 15gr. Earlier I took her out to feed her for the night and I felt seeds in her crop so I skipped the feeding.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

Well, that is certainly good news!

Thank you for the update.

Looks like it is quite rainy your way.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I'm glad to hear that Becky is finally eating on her own, or what sure seems like it

How's Lee doing...still improving?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, good! Little Baby Becky's finally gotten better. I need some good news today.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, good! Little Baby Becky's finally gotten better. I need some good news today.
> 
> Pidgey



Yep, it's been very sad around here today.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great news, Reti! We sure needed some good news today!

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you all.
Indeed we needed some good news.

Treesa, it is raining and it is a mess. It didn't stop raining one minute today. it is dark and depressing.

Brad, thanks for asking, he is doing better, even though he still is short of breath occasionally. Also, good news, he lost 21 lb.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> Brad, thanks for asking, he is doing better, even though he still is short of breath occasionally. Also, good news, he lost 21 lb.
> 
> Reti


You mean, Cindy would say he's SOB?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> You mean, Cindy would say he's SOB?
> 
> Pidgey


A svelt sob.....

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yep, she is eating. I finally saw her today.
She is very carefull not to be seen by me. I wonder why. 

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My Gramma didn't want me watching her eating, either. She only seemed fussy about it when I wasn't eating anything so you might try eating with her and seeing how that works. I've had sick birds that refused to eat unless you put another pile down for another bird that went right to it--and then they'd chow down themselves. It's just a quirk.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> My Gramma didn't want me watching her eating, either. She only seemed fussy about it when I wasn't eating anything so you might try eating with her and seeing how that works. I've had sick birds that refused to eat unless you put another pile down for another bird that went right to it--and then they'd chow down themselves. It's just a quirk.
> 
> Pidgey


Aren't they funny.
She has her mate Candy who eats with her, I think she prefers eating with him rather than with me.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> Yep, she is eating. I finally saw her today.
> She is very carefull not to be seen by me. I wonder why.
> Reti


So all this time you think she wasn't eating...she actually was? It was just an act to get you to think she wasn't, because she has a hang-up about you watching her eat? LOL


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> So all this time you think she wasn't eating...she actually was? It was just an act to get you to think she wasn't, because she has a hang-up about you watching her eat? LOL



LOL, I hope not. 

No, I don't think she was eating cause she was loosing weight when I was skipping a meal or two. And when she was in isolation she never touched her food.
I think Candy's company helped a lot.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeon see, pigeon do!

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She Has An Egg !!!!!!!!!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Congratulations!


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