# Pigeon Genetics



## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all!

From a very sunny South Africa!

I read an article recently about breeding and genetics written by a pigeon "maestro" from SA. He has his own family of pigeons, and they WIN - WIN all over the world not only in SA!

It pertains to a way and the method of creating your "own pigeon family" -using genetics, and using one pigeon as a base. 

Furthermore, Mendel's laws of inheritance are referred to in substantiating his findings.

He says (and I am not quoting verbatim!): 

If you have a Super cock or Crack (Sire) that has won races and has bred winners, this cock will form the basis of your family as he carries the inherent, hidden winning genes which he calls "the Will to Win!" 

Accordingly he concludes that when this "crack" sire is mated to a hen with similar qualities and attributes, they will produce offspring of which the hens (young) will have 2 of these inherent "will to win" genes from their Crack sire and the cocks only one!

He does say that this does not necessarily mean that the cocks must be discarded. They can also be successful racers or breeders.

Can anyone contribute to this "formula?" 

I ask because I want to know how to breed with my "crack" hen!

Regards.

white flight ZA


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

white flight said:


> Hi all!
> 
> 
> If you have a Super cock or Crack (Sire) that has won races and has bred winners, this cock will form the basis of your family as he carries the inherent, hidden winning genes which he calls "the Will to Win!"
> ...



I don't know about that. Genitics are pretty complicated but I think the chance of a hen getting twice the gene that a cock does is pretty far fetched. Tom Demartino (SVR breeder) does believe the great cocks produce great hens and great hens produce great cocks. Maybe there is some merit to this theory but everyone must be very cautious when anyone in pigeons says "I have a method and this is how to do it and it always works". Reason being is if anyone really had anything like that all their pigeons would be great and this is never a reality for anyone.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

white flight said:


> Hi all!
> 
> From a very sunny South Africa!
> 
> ...


 Hi White Feather, Well I MUST TELL YOU YOUR FRIEND DOES NOT KNOW GENETICS. Number 1: the cock and the hen pass one gene each to there young except for the color genes in that case the cock passes one color gene to the young hen while the hen passes no color gene to the young hen.When it comes to the young cock he gets 2 color genes one from the father and one from the mother so you see the young cock will get two color genes while the young hen gets ONLY one.You can best see this with red birds where the cock will have some black flecking that is the second color that he is carring.This has nothing to do with being a champ racer its just a color thing. It takes more then one set of genes to make a champ racer, also good health and good loft management on the part of the owner. .............GEORGE


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Are you referring to polygamous breeding where one cock is mated with several hens and where foster parents are used?


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

*Genetics*

Hi there!

Yes! we are linebreeding to the "Super Crack" cock! 

white flight ZA


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi eveyone responding to this thread!

I am "fishing in the gene pool" and it is very complicated!

The subject of genetics and breeding is very interesting! Albeit easy to work out matings on paper, putting it to practice is a total different story! The basics are:

- the male pigeon has 62 chromosones - there are thus thus 31 pairs - one pair of which are the sex chromosomes ( the X chromosones)

- the hen has 61 chromosones 30 pairs plus one X chromosone - the X chromosone not only determines the sex, but also carries a large number of other characteristics, which will be inherited together

- every cell in the pigeon body contains these 31 pairs ( 30 pairs + 1 for the hen) with the exception of the male seed and the egg cells in the hen

- each partner donates HALF his chromosones to his offspring!

- THEREFORE, the influence of BOTH partners is ALMOST equal, but not altogether as ...

* the hen can only donate her X chromosone, which contains a huge amount of information, to her sons and not to her daughters!

* from a purely genetic point of view we can say her influence is greater on her sons than on her daughters!

- which of the two X chromosones the father donated to his daughter also has an influence on the outcome of the mating...

- although the X chromosone plays a big role, it must not be exaggerated, for the other chromosones have also an important part to play, etc...

( extract taken from Victor Vansalen: Masters of Breeding and Racing)

So coming back to my initial thread: the Super Crack cock "A" is mated to 2 different hens.The hens are "B" and "C". 

From the mating A to B we get D who is then mated back to Super Crack A.

From A to hen C we get E. E is also mated back to A. 

It is of critical importance that both D and E must be tested via the basket and they must be winners!

From these matings: A to D and A to E we will get F&G, H & I ... which carry the chain of the abstract genes of Super Crack A! These become the cornerstones of building your own family!

Trying to make sense of this but it seems too.. on paper.

white flight ZA!


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all! white flight ZA -mmm AGAIN!

Comment on my own thread:

A famous iridologist (eye-sign specialist) in our country concludes the following: 

"Observe all the fanciers that pair to Mendel's Law (introduced in 1865), they have not created a successful strain of racing pigeons. No one and I mean no one has begun to recognise all the genes that are available in the gene pool!"

So I will leave the matter there!

white flight ZA


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

white flight said:


> Hi all!
> 
> ......It pertains to a way and the method of creating your "own pigeon family" -using genetics, and using one pigeon as a base.
> 
> ...


 First of all....regardless of the claims made....as far as I am concerned, it takes two pigeons to make a pair. If this genetic master is going to build a dynasty with only one pigeon, I am sure some sort of Nobel Prize can not be to far away. 

My best two cents I can offer, is to pair your "crack" hen, with a "crack" cock, that would be the first step, but keep in mind, that would now involve two "crack" pigeons and not one. 

In theory, one could build a dynasty based on a single crack pair, I once had a diagram posted on my web site, showing how to accomplish such a thing, but at least in my experience, it was far easier to obtain additional "cracks" along the way, because there are so few "perfect" pairs in the world, that in time, with excessive inbreeding depression, the whole family can pass a point of no return and ruin. That's the problem with "theory"....one could spend a lifetime trying to prove it can be done, but reality has a way of interrupting one's plan's from time to time. 

Now, having said all that, I do firmly believe, that a strain can be built around a Super Cock...but a fair amount of really good hens will be required along the way. Much attention is paid to the "Crack" cocks in a family tree, because of commercial reasons, and the greater reproductive ability of cocks vs. hens. But, as the saying goes, behind every great male...there is a female !  And then there are times, when out of the blue....a super could fall into your lap...which is better then your foundation "crack"...then what do you do ? If you are smart, you are always looking for stock which is better then what you currently own, which can move your colony forward. 

If you truely own an honest to goodness "crack" hen, then mortgage the house and purchase a very proven cock stud, and hope that this pairing produces the goods to help pay off the mortgage and to acquire additional "cracks" to fill your loft. And just to keep it simple, I would acquire "cracks" from the same family the hen is from, perhaps some uncles and aunts, etc.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi there!

Sound advice, it takes two to tango.
Will put her to the best cock in the loft presently and in 2009 let the basket do the talking!!

Thanks.
Regards and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

white flight ZA


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree with Warren. Any time a super stud cock falls into your lap, you "can" make room by getting rid of lesser value cocks.


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## fishcharmer (Nov 15, 2008)

Hey white flight,

Regarding the genetics subject, check out these guys. Dave Shewmaker and Silvio Mattacchione. The web sites are ( shewmaker.com ) (silvio-co.com ) i think you will find them both very interesting? At any rate, you can find both of these sites quite easily online. Also the rest of you folks on this thread should check these out as well. you just might learn something. However, my guess is that white flight is no dummy.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*No Dummies on this site !!*



fishcharmer said:


> ...... However, my guess is that white flight is no dummy.


 I don't think anyone was suggesting that.....in fact, if anyone spends any amount of time on this site, and reads and contributes with the idea of building on their base of knowledge, will quickly and rapidly move from novice to above average status....as far as pigeon knowlege goes ! 

The fact of the matter is, we are all "dummy's" when it comes to the understanding of this bird. In fact, at least it has been my experience, the more I learn, the more I understand that I really know very little. I suspect it would take a hundred + years, of hands on experience, to just scratch the surface. When it comes to pigeon knowledge, it is all relative...the fact that I might know a little more then the next person, does not make me all knowing....When I was a teenager, I thought I knew more then my parents....boy...talk about being dumb !! Turns out they did not know everything, but I did not really know anything !! 

Typically, about two years into this sport, most people, and I include myself in here, become "experts" in their own mind, and will have an opinion on just about every subject regarding pigeons, and many really stop learning at that point, even if they spend another 20 years in the sport. It was another year or to into this game, that this light bulb went off in my head....the more I learned, the more I realized, that gee...like when I was a kid, I don't know nuthing !!......


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## fishcharmer (Nov 15, 2008)

*lets back up*

Hi Waren,

No offence to you at all, I think you miss understood what i meant. Cyberspace has a way of doing that: having read a few of the white flight posts it became obvious to me that this person has researched the subject "at least a little" and knows something on the subject. I was extending a compliment to white flight (Truth be known) and a couple of great writers on the subject both of whom i have spoken with personally on the subject...


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

white flight said:


> Hi there!
> 
> Sound advice, it takes two to tango.
> Will put her to the best cock in the loft presently and in 2009 let the basket do the talking!!
> ...


Have you raced birds from this cock before? Do you race? It would not hurt to breed him to several hens and pump the babies (if you are set up for it). I believe you will increase your chances of getting good pigeons cause you never know what ones are going to work together. If he produces good pigeons with all the hens, then he is very potant.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

fishcharmer said:


> Hey white flight,
> 
> Regarding the genetics subject, check out these guys. Dave Shewmaker and Silvio Mattacchione. The web sites are ( shewmaker.com ) (silvio-co.com ) i think you will find them both very interesting? At any rate, you can find both of these sites quite easily online. Also the rest of you folks on this thread should check these out as well. you just might learn something. However, my guess is that white flight is no dummy.



Shewmaker is a genetic genius (I am breeding from some of his now) but even he will tell you to race them and keep the good ones. I really like Ad Shaerlaeckens and he says one thing I truly believe. Breed your best, breed many, fly many, keep the very best.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2008)

I personally think that if more people knew what good birds were and recognised them for what they are there would be that many more around to breed from .. as was said before just cuz a bird does well within the races it doesnt mean that they are good breeders and sometimes others within that family are so much better as breeders so who really knows who has what when they arent flying these siblings to know for sure what they have .. its a crap shoot and anyone cound have a diamond in the rough but it doesnt mean they will ever really recognize that fact and know what they have in their possesion ... how many storys of lost birds coming into anothers loft and changing history do we need to hear about to know that .


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi All, especially "fishcharmer" and "ohiogsp!"

I'm a very modest person BUT nonetheless, thanks for not calling me a "dummy!" 

To SmithFamilyLoft I agree that this forum is to awake the mind of our little knowledge we have of our beloved pigeons whom we observe for at least most part of any day more than observing anything else on earth.

We always question, try to find possible solutions, yet this still does not satisfy our needs as the "mystry" of the pigeon remains just that.

Yes, I have researched the articles suggested they are excellent, BUT are mostly observations. There is no scientific "test" nor "control" - see what I mean!

Regards.

white flight ZA


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all white flight ZA - again!

I've read that 95% of the pigeons in our lofts will never be successful - whatever you wish to call (relatively speaking) "successful", e.g. 3 x winner , 1 x Combine winner, a crack breeder of 6 winners, dam of 11 winners, etc, etc.

So only 5% of my birds presently will make it through 2009??

Regards

white flight ZA


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

white flight said:


> Hi all white flight ZA - again!
> 
> I've read that 95% of the pigeons in our lofts will never be successful - whatever you wish to call (relatively speaking) "successful", e.g. 3 x winner , 1 x Combine winner, a crack breeder of 6 winners, dam of 11 winners, etc, etc.
> 
> ...



That's a truthful but in reality a sad statement. But let's cheer up! If breeding winning pigeons was so easy, then anyone and everyone can do it! It takes hard work, perserverance, and a little luck to breed outstanding birds. And what can I say, we're all in it for challenge of finding the next super pigeon.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi LokotaLoft!

True Story!

What you express is so true. We had a case of a fancier in our Federarion (365+ Members) who trapped a bandless red chequer hen a few years ago. He decided to keep her because he had no reds in his loft. 

She eventually mated in the race loft and bred a round on the loft floor - BOTH WERE FED winners out of approx 5000 pigeons. 

He decided to use her again and mated her to 7 different cocks and all produced the goods. This hen's progeny became the basis of many a Fed champ in our city.

Shows you "don't judge a pigeon on genetics!" Ha! Ha!

white flight ZA


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I think the reason we loose so many pigeons is because we made them too fast for their own good. I had some real consistant slower birds last year and I don't think I could loose them at any distance no matter what but they would never win a race. Some of them went to 6 races and some did well in the distance races but some did not, just kept coming even from 340miles (yb). I probably won't breed from the parents to some of these again but I bet long ago this is more like the birds they had. I think we have ourselves to brame. People like to make excuses but I don't believe to cell towers and any of that stuff cause I bet you could still breed a slow family you would not loose birds from. Just my 2 cents.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

white flight said:


> Hi LokotaLoft!
> 
> True Story!
> 
> ...


I hope to have a stroke of luck like that myself this coming race season


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Why this thread was called pigeon genetics when in fact you are all talking breeding of racing pigeons.Where in this whole thread has any one shown GENETIC PROOF that their breeding methods are based on genetics.Yes if you breed the best to the best you may get good young but the truth is you will more then likey have more duds then good ones.You all seem to think that good race birds have only good genes the truth is they also carry bad genes which will produce poor racers.You all seem to forget that there other non genetic factors that come into play in winning a race,wind , loft location,health,loft management just to name a few.* GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*"An Academic Discourse on Genetics".....well sort of*



george simon said:


> *Why this thread was called pigeon genetics when in fact you are all talking breeding of racing pigeons.Where in this whole thread has any one shown GENETIC PROOF that their breeding methods are based on genetics.Yes if you breed the best to the best you may get good young but the truth is you will more then likey have more duds then good ones.You all seem to think that good race birds have only good genes the truth is they also carry bad genes which will produce poor racers.You all seem to forget that there other non genetic factors that come into play in winning a race,wind , loft location,health,loft management just to name a few.* GEORGE



Oh George....

You had to spoil the fun, and break the illusion, that what we were talking about was "Genetics"!......I don't know about you, but I always feel a tad more sophisticated when I label my chit chat about trying to breed pigeons as *"An Academic Discourse on Genetics". *

Don't you know that the real genetic stuff causes people's eye's to glaze over, as if in a trance ?.......

And then the people who really can talk it, and articulate it in such a manner so that you can nod your head in such a way, that you almost convince yourself, that you actually understand the stuff. For the most part, have not exactly set the world on fire with their *"Genetically Engineered"* Super Pigeons. So, what is a guy to do ?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Hi WARREN, That is what happend, my eyes got Glazed Over, wonder what kind eye sign that might be. lol lol * GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

george simon said:


> * Hi WARREN, That is what happend, my eyes got Glazed Over, wonder what kind eye sign that might be. lol lol * GEORGE


 In the early years I spent a considerable amount of time studying the subject. Read all the stuff from the "Experts" on the subject, their web sites, the "articles", "papers" on the subject etc. 

Somewhere along the way, I came to one very considerable conculsion, with all this "Book" knowlege, why have they not been able to produce a "Super" strain of racing pigeons, greater then the guy who does not even know who the Geneticist George Medel was ? 

If an understanding of this science, would create success, then anyone with a degree in this field, would master the sport, would he or she not ?

Takes me back to the idea that the field of "Pigeonolgy" is as much an art as a science. One is not going to become a Master in this sport, by becoming a geneticist. But, that is me and my thinking. Some day a geneticist, may end up producing a few National Champions, but until then, the guy in Holland who never graduated from University, but has produced numerous National Champions has my attention still.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

It is funny how pigeon sense most often trumps book sense. We are also dealing with sophisticated sky rats and not fruit flies or beans. 

My best Abq bird this year (3rd 300 mile futurity) had a sibling, one of the worst fliers this year for the club. She, the worst bird, flew all 8 races with a race record of 199th,238th,206th,156th,162nd,137th,a no clock, and 214th. Her times were tens of minutes slower than her brother but still averaged over 1300 ypm. Is she genetically equal to her brother. In my opinion yes, probably superior. What we do not always know about genetics is how racing factors into the descisions we make about which traits to send on to the next generation. 

Here is her story. She is in a loft of 10 race birds. Her fancier is flying his first year. He is mentally distabled and feeds his birds chicken scratch. He did not start training until two weeks before the first race and was given little or no road trainning. She was home who knows how long before she was clocked in the first race. The race secretary had to wake the fancier up to ask him if he had any birds in. One race she was clocked 30 minutes after the other club birds, because he was not off work yet. She is a granddaughter of my best breeding pair. Something tells me that she is one of the best birds that I have ever raised. 

Randy


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think we are genetically engineering these birds that we have although we use the classical method (select the "best" and breed them). We are not at DNA level yet. I am a biology graduate and back in the lab we used engineered bacteria and other engineered stuff (example, we use a particular mouse strain). We basically altered DNA by inserting other DNA that have features that we like. We inserted gene from a firefly to make a plant glow at night for example. We add certain "weakness" in some bacteria gene so that we can kill it when we wanted to.

No one cloned a pigeon yet, but I believe they already cloned sheep, cow, and cat/dog(?). That probably will be in the future. For now we are guessing with our pigeons.

I think for humans it is now possible to choose whether you want a boy or a girl using artificial insemination. Jos Thone already practiced artificial insemination, but obviously not to choose whether to have a cock or a hen.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all!

Sticking to gene -"ology", of the thread, mating the best to the best or half brother to half sister, or whatever, we are going to find "visible genetic traits" that we do not favour. WE all have in our minds eye what we want to see in a "good/excellent" pigeon. But remember, the ugly ducklings can also swim!

What do we do? We change matings to eliminate that "visible" unwanted factor.

IT IS THE INVISIBLE TRAITS IN GENES that WE CANNOT DETERMINE!!

white flight ZA


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi All!

Pigeon Genetics is once again on my agenda!

Firstly, my posting of 10 December 2008 had some factual errors AND NO ONE CHALLENGED MY STATEMENT OF HOW MANY PAIRS OF CHROMOSOMES A RACING PIGEON ACTUALLY HAS! 

Secondly, the word "dummy" used subsequently, is now gladly appreciated as I did not research my thread topic thoroughly enough!

Thirdly, the member who referred me to Dave Shewmaker and others who studied genetics and Mendelian Laws, should have "jumped" on the incorrect factual matter I presented in that post!

NOW I WILL RECTIFY THE ISSUE MYSELF IN ORDER NOT TO BE LABELLED AS a "know-all" and also I am one who can accept criticism.

After researching the works of a number of experts on genetics, such as Dave Shewmaker, Steven Van Breemen (NL), Alan Wheeldon(USA), Mauricio Jemal (Mexico), Dr W.Peters and Dr J. Nel (S.A)..... 

ALL PIGEONS HAVE 80 CHROMOSONES, arranged two by two, thus 40 pairs, which carry a pre-determined sequence of genes involved in the hereditary traits of its young. Chromosones are essentially DNA molecules.

Whilst I had hoped for audacious criticism and additions to my ideas so that I could learn more, I at the same time did not agree with all that was initially said at the time! 

When you listen to the geneticists, they seem to have it all cut and dried until Mendel proves to them not to take all these theories for granted. Mendel more than anyone sends you back to the drawing board just when you think you about to "know it all!" 

My advice would be: "Instead of stydying genetics, study some of the famous pedigrees that are available and in them you will see how to breed winners!"

It is, however, good to have a some knowledge of genetics.

Cheers for now and a Merry Christmas and prosperous New Year.

white flight ZA.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

white flight said:


> ......When you listen to the geneticists, they seem to have it all cut and dried until Mendel proves to them not to take all these theories for granted. Mendel more than anyone sends you back to the drawing board just when you think you about to "know it all!"
> 
> My advice would be: "Instead of stydying genetics, study some of the famous pedigrees that are available and in them you will see how to breed winners!"
> 
> ...


Hello White Flight,

Well....in a very short period of time, you seem to have given up on the study of genetics....what ? Already ? You only touched on the web sites or ideas of just a tiny handful of "experts" 

Be that as it may....does the "knowlege" that: " ALL PIGEONS HAVE 80 CHROMOSONES, arranged two by two, thus 40 pairs, which carry a pre-determined sequence of genes involved in the hereditary traits of its young. Chromosones are essentially DNA molecules. " make you or I better able to breed better pigeons ? I think not. 

Apparently you think not, but now maybe suggest that the study of pedigrees will provide the knowlege on how to breed better pigeons. I will provide you here the family tree which has produced numerous National Champions, I only offer this tree, because I have studied it for years. Now, what can you tell from this pedigree of key birds, which will allow those who study it, an understanding of how to breed a bunch of National Champions ??

http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoFamilyTree1.htm

http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoFamilyTree2.htm

I humbly suggest, that much like learning things like how many pairs of chromosones a pigeon has, might make interesting cocktail party conversation, but it really does not help me very much, and I suspect that studying pedigrees, might be an interesting past time, but I don't really know how these pedigrees, such as I show here, will help most people figure out how to pair up their particular typical birds, in such a way as to produce Champions. 

I suggest that the breeding of great pigeons is in large part, an Art form, and a very good measure of luck. But, one has to have the gene's in the breeding loft in the first place. Because what the study of genetic's or pedigrees has shown me, is that one must have "good" pigeon's in the first place, for as the saying goes, you can't make a silk purse with a sow's ear.

In conclusion, one might become an "expert" in all the details of the science, and one might even spend a life time studying pedigrees. But, unless you have some really good pigeons in your loft, all this knowledge won't produce a single great racing pigeon, if the genes are not available in the gene pool you are working with, and unless they line up in all the right combinations. 

Happy Holidays.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I always look at those family trees and make the correlation that they look like computer mother board or wiring diagram. They remind me of the old erector set instructions or the ones that came with that wiring game one of my friends used to have. 

My thoughts on genetics are simple. That as complicated as it is and when you put statistics to the outcomes, there become millions of possibilities with even the same offspring of a given pair. I think it is as simple as you want to make it. Find good birds and breed them, the ones that have the traits for winning, you keep them and rid the rest. Take the good ones breed them and repeat the process. This is about as far into genetics as I go. 

As for the family trees. If you are smart enough after looking at them to figure out exactly what the fancier did and reproduce the results, more power to you. Odds are that the million possibilities for genetic outcomes unlike the ones followed when following the methods exactly makes for outcomes not so similar. But if you obtain birds from say Ludo who has been highly successful, odds are no matter how you breed the birds, you will probably have some success with them. Just for the fact that the genetic package has a propensity to produce desired qualities. 

I did find with the wiring game of my friends we could spend hours connecting wires to posts and finally do simple things like light a light bulb. One wrong wire and no light. My point here being following others genetic methods give you many opportunities for error. 

Now as for pedigrees, I think one could copy the breeding methods of say the Janssen brothers and have some success as long as the birds are quality across the pedigree. I think just by the process of elimination many pedigrees will look like this by default. When you breed from the winners, they seem to show up in the pedigrees more often. 

Randy

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One more point on the family trees. All the family trees and pedigrees that I have been associated with are done when the racing is over. I think they are like everything else in the sport, just a tool to study to find a means to an end. The real brains and luck behind the process comes when selecting two birds for pairing. Some fanciers, like Ludo are just masters at the game. Something not many have been able to reproduce no matter how much we study pedigrees, family trees, or selection methods. 

Randy


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think it is about bell curve. Breeding champion birds may have a bell curve that skews to the right. Breeding "culls" probably have skewed left bell curve. The majority of pigeons are average where the highest of the peak on the curve is on the middle. Pedigrees are a guide. Obviously breeding champion birds together have greater probability of having good birds. Again it is statistics.

Now this random breeding of champion birds will probably disappear when we start cloning them. You will get the same copy of the gene. I don't know whether there is a fun in that.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*HARD WORK and TIME*

*The first thing I would like to point out is that most if not all the genetic work done on pigeons is on the outside appearanse, color,frills,shape,
beak length,feather lenght and so on.No work that I know of on the internal organs, these are important in finding out what genes are in these organs. now i ask you would you give up a champion bird to be cut up so some one can find the genes that make up the muscle,or heart,or liver and so on of a chamion bird.A STUDY OF THIS MAGNETUDE WOULD REQUIRE HUNDREDS OF CAMPION BIRDS AND I DARE SAY NO ONE WANTS TO GIVE UP A CHAMP. So I say breed good birds and hope for the best and don't look for short cuts to get to the top it takes hard work and much time to breed a family of winners.GEORGE*


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

george simon said:


> *....No work that I know of on the internal organs, these are important in finding out what genes are in these organs. now i ask you would you give up a champion bird to be cut up so some one can find the genes that make up the muscle,or heart,or liver and so on of a chamion bird......]GEORGE*


*

And let's not forget that little important organ we call "The Brain"....and I dare say, they could cut up and look at a thousand of these Champion brains, or hearts, or livers etc, and still would not be able to provide information that would guide me any better in the pairing of my breeders. 

I agree with you George, there is a whole industry built around the concept of providing you some sort of easy short cut. And human nature is such, that many people will always be drawn to seek the short cut, or easy solution. 

Perhaps that is why the true Champion Fancier is so uncommon ?*


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey George,

Was you message addressed to me? If so, I would like to say there is not much chopping up.
Here is for mammals. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)

Basically we want a DNA which we put on a developing egg, and put it back. We are basically substituting our chosen DNA and let nature take her course. In humans we do artificial insemination( e.g. test tube babies) in that we get sperm and egg and let them do their thing on a dish and put them back.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_test_tube_babies

I rather have real sex, though.

I agree that no one will give up their champ birds to be dissected. I wont. I can, however, can allow my birds to have its sperm like this (see artificial insemination section).

http://www.thone.be/ebben.htm

We can get DNA from almost any cells. In humans we can take throat/mouth swab.
But I do agree that time and hard work is needed to have champion birds.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Warren,

It is funny that you mentioned brain. After Einstein died, scientists dissected his brain to figure what makes him genius. THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY! His brain is just like us!

I do notice that if you take a human twin and let them race to do something, the most motivated of the two wins.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

RodSD said:


> THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY! His brain is just like us!


Don't mean to be nit picky here... but you're right they didn't find any.... but its not like ours. He was missing two parts of his frontal lobe and that is how they believe he was able to think in pictures. The two parts that im talking about are the same two that if they are not normal size cause autism; He was extremely autistic because those lobes weren't there at all. Or so they think.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi All!

I'm NOT giving up on genetics.

Firstly, you MUST have excellent pigeons, tested in races preferably, to breed from! 
I AGREE WITH YOU ALL! 

Lets not forget, however, breeding good with good does not always mean a winner!

Secondly, I am suggesting that I make sure that the genes I actually need, hidden or visible, are actually in my "gene pool!" The "Will to Win", for example, is hidden until I basket test the progeny of a particular pair! Hence I must start my work around a genetically superior individual whom I have identified in my pedigree (s) as recurring and dotted all over the pedigree register.

Thirdly, with this individual, I then "stack the deck", "play a lot of hands" and "know when I have a winning hand" - (quote by Dave Shewmaker)!

Happy, happy holidays!

I,m out of here for now - let the basket do the talking in 2009!

Regards in pigeon sport.

white flight ZA.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Matt,

Thanks for pointing that out. I may have been wrong! Here is another I found about his brain.
http://www.enchantedmind.com/html/science/brain_capacity.html

I understand what that article is saying. I've spent 6 months studying neuroscience. I almost fell asleep studying it. It was so hard. So many names to remember. I think I've have forgotten almost all of them now. I almost worked with a neuroscientist before, but I declined because I felt I was not good enough.

I am big fan of Einstein. I do remember reading that he developed slowly as a child. Interesting comparison of that autistic part. He was indeed a visual thinker. He visualizes problems and solves them. Can you tell me exactly what part of that lobe is missing. I thought that we use our frontal lobe for thinking so if that is missing, then how can he possibly think well?


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi there!

I'm NOT giving up on genetics.

Firstly and foremost my proposition starts off that you MUST have excellent pigeons to breed from! I AGREE WITH YOU ALL! 

Lets not forget, however, breeding good with good does not always mean a winner!

Secondly, I am suggesting that I make sure that the genes I actually need, hidden or visible, are actually in my "gene pool!" The "Will to Win", for example, is hidden until I basket test the progeny of a particular pair! Hence I must start my work around a genetically superior individual whom I have identified in my pedigree (s) as recurring and dotted all over the pedigree register.

Thirdly, with this individual, I then "stack the deck", "play a lot of hands" and "know when I have a winning hand" - (quote by Dave Shewmaker)!

Happy, happy holidays!

I,m out of here for now - let the basket do the talking in 2009!

Regards in pigeon sport.

white flight ZA.


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## Bezz (Dec 12, 2008)

white flight said:


> Lets not forget, however, breeding good with good does not always mean a winner!


Hi White Flight

I am with you on this one.
Good with good wil only give good birds!,but the BEST to the BEST wil always beat the good ones!

Bezz


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