# Change Birds or Not?



## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Well i have been working with this kit since may, and they just plain refuse to fly, the only way they will fly is if i take them away from the loft.. I have been doing the carry away method for a month, and sometimes they fly up to 30 mins,, but most times its like 5-10 mins, they land and come in on there own.. 

I have fed them mixed feed, and then changed to wheat only.. they feel good, not fat but solid.. 1.5 tablespoons each a day 

So i have a week of nice weather and im giving them one more chance.. fly or bye... these are basically no name strain, but they do roll somewhat.. but im a litte frustrated... 

Any suggestions? or should i get rid of these and get a known strain from someone that flys rollers.. I dont expect much from them, just fly and roll a bit.. however they fight me from day one..oh ya they come in just fine, call them and they come in a few mins.. and they dont act starved... I'm confused what else to do? 

Thanks


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Age of KIt?
Amount Fed? (To little is as Bad as too much)
Mixed sexes? when they want to Nest they can get lazy about flying.
I DO NOT... Think it is the strain of Birds.
Were they bred by you? or just settled there?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

P.S. I too am a Backyard Flyer. I believe you have to adjust feed but I do not measure it that close. some days they get a limit others all they want.
It takes fuel to Fly!


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

These birds were bred here.. the oldest is 5 months,, as i said feed is determined by the 2tbls per bird, adding little more or less to get them to trap in when called with in reason. I set a 3 min trap time from calling them.. they are well settled, to the point that they dont bother to fly just out wait the 1/2 to an hour then they will come in on there own, if i call them they come pretty much right away.. I posted previously what they get for feed.. I'm sure they get more than enough to fly .. again 1 1/2 tablespoons each.. I dont think that the mixed sexes is doing much yet, there too young to really tell the sex but some are cock birds.. or want to act big boy ...
I tried just letting them fly when they were ready, that didnt work,, they got on the ground an picked.. I put my best dog on that one.. she loves to keep them off the ground.. once they go to the loft roof she leaves them alone.. 

It was reccomend that i carry them away from the loft, I did this with mixed results.. 
I never thought for a min they would refuse to fly on there own... there birds for cryin out loud.. what do they think there wings are for??

And i know they can fly well, i have seen them roll or learning to, I have had them fly for 30 mins, non stop, i pulled the weak ones out or held them back.. no matter wht i do they refuse to fly from the loft out and back , it is boxem and carry them away or they will not fly .. I have large trees everywhere here so if i push them they will go up to the trees, and sit again..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

My flock is a mixed Bag of Birds from all over, This is my first full season after having been out of it for a while. 
It seems to me yours are eager to get back in to eat.
My mixed Bag fly 2 times a Day most Days and they fly a LONG Time.
I am almost positive it is not the Genetics of the Birds.
I would give them full feed for a few Day and not worry about Trapping until they will fly like they Love it. You will always get a Bird or Two that do not like to Fly, in my experience it is not something you will see in a Whole Flock.
I have a Mixed young Bird Team, I have pulled out the Rollers I will Breed out of next Year, leaving me with 7 Homers and 9 Rollers.
This team has been this way for about a Month or two some are June Hatched,
and they Fly like MAD....Rollers from 3 sources, homers from 3 different matings.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

well i went thru the give them all they wanted for an hour,, then picked up seed left over.. I then went to the measurement an found that at one time they will eat a max of 13 tblspoons, leaving just a few seed..so i have continually fed them that much.. twice a day.. im trying to give them air time.. i would think, 26tablespoons would suffice for 11 birds.. and they get that every day.. and some days i give an extra tbls and find that they leave seed again.. last few days i throw out an extra table spoon or two.. they leave it.. fresh water and grit daily..

The originals i already have pairs kept back for breeding again, but this time there gonna be fostering a couple of pairs of ruby's.. but the kit i raised this year is in serious trouble if they dont get to flying.. I reallly want them to fly out the loft fly 1/2 hour and then come back in when called, they refuse to fly..i ran the food amounts for a month or more. One more spoon of food, they leave it , i can't afford to toss a couple tbsp twice a day away... especially if they wont fly regardless...


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well you do what you think is Right, I never throw feed away, NEVER.
Willingness to fly is all about the Birds being up to the Task, feeling good enough to WANT to do it.
I have never and will never "Measure" feed for my Birds, as their needs are different almost every Day. It is always up to your Judgement as to what they need. 
I can tell you have already made up your Mind on the matter.
Training and Management will take almost any strain or family of performing Breed and get them to FLY! 
Best of Luck!


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

I have given them all they want to eat, over the summer, and it dont make a difference, and im sure there not getting to much or less than they need. I've been wrong before tho


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Well lets say i made adjustments in case of failure.. I really dont wish to terminate the birds, i enjoyed raising them, but i want them to fly.. I may not be managing them correctly for sure, but i had rollers years ago, and they flew well.. these i just dont know what else to do.. 
I upped the food, i lowered the food, i leave them out longer, i carried them off, still they refuse to fly? so other than feed them what else can i do ? and one more thing, they are gettin fat from not flying..


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

It is time to consider their health as a possible reason for not wanting to fly.
When you take them away from the loft and force them to fly back, do you notice if they ever are panting when they land?
Have you ever look in their mouth and down their throat?
If the birds have some health issues going on they may not feel up to flying.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Yes Sir, i have looked fairly frequently for signs of canker, none found, i have scoped there stools looking for parasites, I have wormed them also. there not out of breath at all when they return, they have flown for a good 30 mins. a couple times when i take them out... I took them out this morning, and they beat me back, and i was driving  .. I have a full compliment of meds if i do find anything wrong, i dont think there is any illness there.. they just dont want to fly.. and they are more than capable, I give them vitamins, and probiotics ever few days in the water.. the birds feel good in the hand.. IDK.. I never seen a bird that didnt want to fly.. they did not hardly budge during a bop attack, only the one that was hit flew and it flew far and fast , came back later, and the kit was still hangin out.. I have asked professionals, followed what they said to do, still no luck,,, I just dont know.. it might be one bad bird, i have sorted early landers, lighter birds, broke them up to small kits of a few birds.. not much i haven't tried,,, the only thing i can say is that these birds came from a pigeon farm/mill... if that could be a problem, but they do roll, i flew the adults,, they rolled , and kitted. I locked them down an started breeding.. and am were i am now.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Maybe it is not the amount you feed, but when and how.
If it was the Family of Birds, they would not have had a chance to Breed long enough for you to end up with them.
There is no magic Fix. I have a Pair who's Youngsters avoided Flying at all, But with work they now fly, of course I will not Breed out of that Pair next Year....


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

I feed them at 8am after i release them... I have a can with seed in it,, i put that into a tray in the kit box.. I feed them again after i let them out at 7PM late enough to help BOP events not happening.. both times they get 13 tablespoons.. thats for 11 birds... 26 tablespoons a day
The breeding pairs i purchased were any were from 2-4 yrs old,, they were a mix of birds, family unknow.. it was suggested that they were distant this and that.... I had them a month and let them out and trap trained and watched the parents roll a bit an kit.. I then put them up for breeding them first chick was hatched on apr 16 2014.. then the rest bred and i even have several from just a month ago.. ..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I Think your problem is they are too Hungry BEFORE you fly them.
Try feeding them some before you let them out. It probably wont work right away. but it sounds like you are Flying them on an empty Stomach, which i do not care what anyone says, does NOT get the longest Fly out of them.
Keep them locked up for a Day or two, than give them a meal, and let them out about 1 or 2 Hours later. AGAIN I will say it it is NOT a Genetic problem.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

P.S. it also Sounds like you are not using BOP to your advantage.
IF they are out as much as you say they should be some what Hawk Proof, unless you have A LOT of Peregrines around, but they would find them NO MATTER when you let them out. I see Cooper's around my Birds almost every day but do not lose ANY. But it does gets Lazy ones up in the Air.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

I have lost two to hawks, back in the spring. I thought that i posted they actually sat right thru an attack.. just moved over.. it missed one, twice,(young hawk) but the one it bumped flew good.. didn't see it again.. we have way more falcons here,, groups of several go by on some days. 

However, yes i was told/read that you fly them empty.. but i'll try most anything at the moment. It seems to me i did feed them with a bit of food before flying,, for a while at least..only thing i saw was they wouldn't trap as fast. I'm not above saying that I am doing something wrong but am unable to discern what that might be... I have read many posts stating that one cup of food for 10 birds once a day. 16 tbls per day.. so I have 11 birds in that kit, but feeding them 26 tablespoons a day.. ?? any less they seem to have food only on there minds..any more i'm chucking out seed..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I guess I missed this, are they all from the same Breeder? and did he Fly them?


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

You are feeding them about twice what you should be feeding. One level tablespoon per bird per day, and if they are going to fly they will. You will have to keep them on that until they lose some fat before you start seeing results. If you can find barley put them on barley for two to three days.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

LUCKYT said:


> I guess I missed this, are they all from the same Breeder? and did he Fly them?


No they are not, I got them from a pigeon dealer,who purchases from lots of places for resale, no idea what breeder they were from or anything else.. just roller pigeons.. I dont think any of the birds were ever flown.. but i flew them and they flew an rolled.. but this kit is entirely my own kit.. bred by myself.. from the original 12 birds purchased... And yes i knew what i was getting..


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Chuck K said:


> You are feeding them about twice what you should be feeding. One level tablespoon per bird per day, and if they are going to fly they will. You will have to keep them on that until they lose some fat before you start seeing results. If you can find barley put them on barley for two to three days.


Well funny you should say that, two months ago I was feeding them 1 tablespoon a day, in two feedings 1/2 table spoon each.. I read again the feeding recommendations most said two table spoons a day but work down till they are under control?,, say 3 min traps when called.. which i did, i gave them all they could eat, and then measured what was left, and found that they ate 13 table spoons, so i have been sticking with that, but again the books, seem to say one thing, and flyers are doing something else..?? Or i just dont get how much food mine need ?

at the time, they would just sit and wait for food.. didn't fly well then either..all they wanted was to be fed...


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL.
I will say it again.... Unless your Team/Kit is in the Air you have NO Idea what is the right amount to Feed. ALL individual pigeons have different needs as far as Feed goes. 
TRAPPING, Must be ignored until they are up in the Air a reasonable Length of Time. 
Every one thinks that unless they Trap Train First all is Lost ....that thought is POPPY COCK!
I can take any team that is slow to trap and get them doing it ASAP.EVEN year old Birds.
They must Fly First. 
You say you have tried everything. Go back to the beginning next year and start over, SAME family of birds. FORGET TRAP TRAINING until they fly like you want. 
Make sure your Young are in the Air asap after weaning. It is NOT the Birds, it Is all about Managing them. 
P.S. If you Think they are not Good Stock Ship them to me, they will Fly.
It Sounds like you are doing what so many Racing People do.
If it does not Win they change Stock instead of management.
Feed in a Good Feeder, and never throw out Feed, if they do not eat it all,
do not give them more until they Eat ALL the feed you gave them.
THROW AWAY THE MEASURING SPOONS!
READ YOUR BIRDS!
Again I feed more than just about anyone, but no one has ever said my Birds are FAT.
And they Fly like BATS out of Hell...


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

The only time you will see more than Two of any species of Raptor is during Migration, except late in the Season, and the Number over 2 are Young of the Year. 
In over 50 Years of keeping Pigeons I have NEVER Fed Barley. But nothing else is Working for you so try it


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

"Unless your Team/Kit is in the Air you have NO Idea what is the right amount to Feed"

Well there in lies the problem don't it.. 
I am trying to get them in the air....and your right I apparently have the wrong methodology.. but never the less i want these off the ground.. 

Starting today they are going to be fed once a day not twice,, I am lowering the food to a nice rounded tablespoon ea, if they dont fly.. I'll feed them up and tell them to hitch a ride to you... 

I bought a few pair of foundation birds from a reputable breeder.. seemed like a good idea since mine wouldn't fly. I wasn't expecting to be chastised for purchasing known quality stock?  I know that a breeders birds are going to be family. I never liked racer pigeons.. although i have had some.. back in 70's I had Jacobin's showed them regularly.. but i dont have room for them here.. 

I think it wise to use measuring spoons to at least know how much I am feeding.. everyone asks how much you feeding, at least i can answer with a number , not an IDK ,, a handful? 

But anyway, this is what i'm gonna do now..

Feed once daily, and lower the food to one heaping ea..
Still let them out twice a day.. and hope they begin to fly...
Allow them one hour per outing..
And try to balance feed and nutrition. 

Food is straight red wheat. for kit, but i have a 15% mix for breeders...
We'll just have to see how it goes from here,,
Thanks for the advice..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry.... I never give up. My 16 Bird Team Flew 1 Hour 10 min's tonight.
Fed them all they wanted at 2 PM, let them out at 5. 
They Flew until just past 6:15.
Just a Note, I have been unemployed since June and am barely getting by, and my Birds currently, (for the last month) have been getting only the Cheapest Brand of Walmart Wild Bird Mix (Red and White Bag) and Red Grit with the Anise Oil in it. 
Feeding only once a day has never worked for me. I Feed twice a Day, but sometimes once, DEPENDING on how they are Flying.
I Think what most People forget is, Pigeons Have CROPS, which Store the feed before going to the Stomach.
When, and how often you feed is more important then HOW MUCH you Feed and WHAT you Feed. 
The Feed must Hit their Stomach WHEN it is the Time they need the Energy.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Well the day started good, birds flew for me today for 30 mins.. they came back and landed, in two mins flat the cooper came in snagged one of my red bearded white flights... the rest took off for an hour, 5 returned and flew for another 25 mins.. then landed.. at the end of the day the remaining ones snuck back in.. I'm still struggling with them but I think once a day made a difference, even just from yesterday?? IDK but we'll see.. I tried the feed them all they wanted twice a day. and it didn't work for me.. and i did it for a month... I'll see how it continues.. I also have seven more to add to the kits.. I dont really have a B loft.. I have a holding cage but its not winter worthy I dont think I should train them outta that loft.. 
So now im gonna mess up more by adding these seven new birds.. you think thats a good idea to add them, there a couple months old now.. I dont think there ready to fly for no 20 mins tho.. Now i got that to deal with 

I hear that unemployed thing, i was there for two years, but i got ill and have been on disability for the last 2 yrs,, so i know full well how money can be tough to get ahold of...

fortunately I still can afford the birds.. barely but ya... I get a sack of wheat for 15.00 50lb ... and a flyer mix for the same, i alternate what i get.. but unless its breeding time they get wheat, the flying mix was milo/wheat 50/50, and they just didnt eat the milo enough, i have heard of many different seed choices.. my thoughts are what ever works for ya.. I can get wheat right from a farmer down the road... so wheat is my feed of choice.. a sack lasts me two months.. and i only have 35 birds..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I Think you will get your program going, there is no one amount or frequency, that is the silver Bullet. each Day is different cooler Weather a little more, Hot weather a little less. One System Works for One Person, and not another.
I would not give up on the Stock you have. 
Anyone can go out and find stock that has been Bred up to a High standard, it just takes connections ,or Money.
But the True Breeder, or Fancier Finds more satisfaction in taking average Stock, and Breeding into it the desired Qualities. THAN... He/She has their own strain or family, and can take Great Pride in that.
THAT is what I enjoy doing... in a few Years my Family will not be so and so's Stock, just mine.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Yes i been down that road before, over the years i have raised stock with other animals... but i always return to pigeons,,, I know what your saying, however i look at it slightly different,, you can purchase stock from anyone, but the first baby born is your stock, regardless of who it was purchased from.. The parents might be SMoows stock, but the baby is yours, and every squeaker past that is also yours, my reason is you wont breed them the same as the original breeder. So every breeding season takes your birds farther away from who ever bred them..... I'll figure it out with help from you and others.. You read so much about loosing the whole kit, from flyin so high, or blowing away in the wind..flying to far off LOL . If I was so lucky haha. Its a big deal for me to see them off the loft and not on the ground...I might have actually passed that issue.. at least a little...


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Food cut back seems to have worked for sure, quickly too.. I flew this morning at 9:05 and they landed at 9:56 definite improvement.. The fact that this time a falcon landed about 100yds away in a big pine, and they saw it ,,, off they went , its the first time pinnin out seemed to be a possibility.. man they was up there, hard to see dots... and they rolled a bit also, some better than others,, so far just short triple rolls and then back up.. got one that is kinda an off sider, it rolls a few times and has a hard time getting back and when it does it hangs away from the main kit... but its trying,, and one drops out almost right away, then after a few mins will fly up again an fly the rest of the time they fly. But its a start... even cleaned the kit box today


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Willygog, you have already taken them from the loft and you said it helps. You need to let the birds know you are boss. Get a long pole and tie a plastic bag to it and whenever the first bird gets close to landing, get that pole up and waving to keep them from landing. NEVER let a bird land early especially when you are training them and they are not in the air for 20-30mins yet. Now if they are young birds, they won't fly long but it seems like this is on ongoing problem and the birds look like they can definitely do the time. Do this every day to get them flying for at least 20mins and eventually they will do it on their own. It all comes down to training 99% of the time.


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

know the basic of flying birds first and foremost you need good foundation stock then know what you want out of them good kits will preform for about 20 minutes then start to slow down so you have to know what you want out of your birds I would get in touch with breeder they could better answer your questions and show you where are you located there are nbrc members all over the u s


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

2y4life said:


> Willygog, you have already taken them from the loft and you said it helps. You need to let the birds know you are boss. Get a long pole and tie a plastic bag to it and whenever the first bird gets close to landing, get that pole up and waving to keep them from landing. NEVER let a bird land early especially when you are training them and they are not in the air for 20-30mins yet. Now if they are young birds, they won't fly long but it seems like this is on ongoing problem and the birds look like they can definitely do the time. Do this every day to get them flying for at least 20mins and eventually they will do it on their own. It all comes down to training 99% of the time.



Yes i tried that already, back when they would fly just a few mins, that put them in a pine tree 60 ft up.. and they didnt care anymore.. I can tell you one day i threw the pole and the flag at them.. it got caught in the tree.. in a few mins they came over and started to well ,,play with it.. pekin and pullin at the flag...took a few days to get that flag back.. after that they see a flag they go up the tree and sit... that was themy first mistake, flaggin them scares me now.. i believe food has been the issue.. for some reason i fed them twice a day and went with 1 1/2 tbls each, but at twice a day it finally dawned on me.. way over fed.. so i cut them back to once a day and straight wheat and now finally there starting to go.. except i have to keep boxing them up and carrying them down the road a half mile or so.... I would love it if they flew outta the kit box.. but i got so many trees here im in the middle of a forest with a hole cut out for the house,, and its a small house


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

loftkeeper said:


> know the basic of flying birds first and foremost you need good foundation stock then know what you want out of them good kits will preform for about 20 minutes then start to slow down so you have to know what you want out of your birds I would get in touch with breeder they could better answer your questions and show you where are you located there are nbrc members all over the u s


I'm near fremont michigan, and yes, I understand the foundation stock.. These are the first rollers I could find ,,, they have no family line other than " they are crosses off smooes birds or maybe it was smilleys... I did purchase a few pairs of a known breeder of quality rollers,,when i was frustrated with my lack of headway,, I'll likely foster them and get some extra birds that way.. I'm not real big on name brand but totally understand quality stock as opposed to just birds... 

But in the meantime i am desperately trying to learn with these birds,, weren't expensive so any losses I can kinda take.. prefer not to tho..

I haven't joined nbrc yet.. its next on my list. Did it !


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## earlofwood (Jul 1, 2012)

Could this issue be caused by the molt? My birds young and old are just starting to fly again after a 4 or 5 week funk that I presumed was the due to molting. Just this week they have started showing some desire to fly and work harder. At the urging of a friend, I tried adding some calf manna (from Manna Pro) http://www.mannapro.com/products/calf-manna/ to their feed. This stuff is a little expensive so I mix it 1 lb to 10 lbs of feed. It took 2 weeks and they really started to perk up. Its just a suggestion but it seems to be working for me. Good Luck


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

First off, my Flying Team is in a Nasty Molt, worse then ever. 
BUT they are Flying GREAT 40 Minutes Plus 2 times a Day.
I LOVE calf Manna! But I am not feeding it this Year. My feed Store quit carrying it and I have not gotten a new source yet.
REMEMBER THIS! very little you feed your Birds during the Molt has any effect on helping them though it.
Proteins, Minerals, Vitamins Ect. MUST be stored in your Pigeons Bodies before the Bird can use them in the Growth of new feathers.
SO preparing for the Molt must start Weeks or Months before it starts.
Believe it or not if your Birds are looking Ragged from the Molt, something is wrong.
Either it is a strange year for Weather (this Year) or your Feed is off. 
I know why my Molt is so rough this Year, I am feeding low grade feed, (Wild Bird Mix) Only because I am unemployed and Broke! BUT this Years Molt has been strange any way you look at it.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Yes mine are in deep moult now as well,, but some are almost done,, if i take them away, i get a good 20-25 min fly, not real good but after not flying at all I'm almost happy with it.. I am shooting for one hour a day. I think most of my issue was feed, plain and simple,, way to much.. now they are flying some.. they still wont fly from the kit,, they so far need to be carried away.. I feed vitamins, and probiotics, couple times a week.. they feel good in the hand, no signs of any distress.. never tried calf manna.. have to look into it, but I also am on a limited budget.. I am making headway but slower than i had hoped for..carrying them away is starting to get old.. now i wish they would just fly from the kitbox..


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

another thing came to mind rollers need to fly from kit boxes and regular training no other type flying birds flown with them moult will affect them but it sounded like you did not have what you wanted before


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

You do not need Kit Boxes to Fly Rollers, in fact I have always flown out of one of the sections in my Garage. Yes you would need a Kit box to compete most likely.
My Roller Team has Flown all Summer with a Team made up of about 1/2 Rollers, and 1/2 Homers. You just have to be careful how you settle them is all.
After they are all settled, they Fly together for a while then the Homers go Tripping while the Rollers keep Loft Flying.
After the Homers come back they Loft fly as a Flock until they break up and do their own thing again or Trap in. 
It is very enjoyable watching them mix, and split up and do their own thing.
Actually this has been one of the most enjoyable Flying teams I have ever put up in the Air!


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

I use a kitbox , but they dont like to fly from the kitbox out to the sky, they tend to sit..either on the ground or in the tree next to the kitbox.. there is no shortage of trees..

Carrying them away does wonders, they fly usuallly 20-30 mins most times, and occasionally a 50min fly, depends if they see the hawk that seems to be living out back now..  I just need to figure out how to get them from the kitbox to the sky.. If they land in that tree it over,, no amount of crud will move them,, till i call, then they come down.. I really dont think the genetics are very good.. trying to make a silk purse outta a pigs ear.. lol

But years ago , many years, i flew out of an open loft.. no kitboxes,, just open the traps and out they went.. flew and did pretty much what they were supposed to do.. Now kitboxes are the "way" but im a follower, so i use a kitbox. or two.. I'll likely build another one next year ..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL, TREES! I have 2 mature maples one on each side of my landing Board area.
They do land in them, but only after they are done Flying.
If and when I do Compete with my Rollers, I will not use a Kit box.
I can control the lighting in any of my sections if I want to, which is most important.
I will always believe you can get better Fly Time, and performance out of them if they are comfortable in their Loft. NOT Housed in small compartments.
Follow the leader never made a Champion flyer.
I believe your Birds are not comfortable, SO, when they are let out all the want to do is preen and relax, after the stress of such a small environment.
I believe Kit Boxes are designed, and intended for SHORT periods of Time, not for all Season housing.
The above is just my opinion, But I am not normally far off the mark in such matters.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)




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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

LOL only two trees,, i wish that was all i had to contend with, I have at least 20 trees in a six foot radius and more , all around the kit/loft, there is only one way out. I can understand what your saying, the kit box i use is 36x40x24 and has room for even more birds,there not crowded at all,and on top of that there out everyday for a couple hours twice a day.. that doesnt seem to me that there locked in and crammed in .. they seem pretty happy to me.. then again im not a pigeon... also i did fly out of the original loft, it wasn't any different.. I have seen less housing, with far poorer conditions, and there birds fly just fine.. and you are right, for winter I will lock down in the main loft. I may not have a garage but see no problems with the size of the loft or kitbox I am using..they get plenty of light, and i also use a removable flight that is nice for them to come out and enjoy the day.. and i put that on between there release.. I dont see housing as an issue at all.. 

I am in a forest, and there is only one way out, straight up..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, 2 Trees, 60+ Year Old Maples... That hang over my Loft.
My Birds can NOT Fly up to Land or take off, they must come in from only ONE direction, The North, the have about 30 Feet between the Branches and the loft 
Roof. They never are able to Land from the South, East or West.
Actually, your Tree situation should be helping you, once you learn how to keep them from landing in the Trees BEFORE they Fly. 
It should give them the altitude. Once a team gets WAY up there it seems to me it is easier to get them in the Air.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

My Landing Zone..........


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

LOL ok ok, They only have one way in here as well, but its the east.. i have a pic of the opening.. i think its around 20-30 ft wide as well.. 

And ya see thats the problem, they just dont like to fly from the loft.. although yesterday i lost another one due to a hawk attack, they were on the loft and ground just infront of the kitbox, they flew then LOL,, close to 40 mins, then were afraid to come down to the loft, spent the night in a tree away from the loft.. but came in straight away this morning, real windy so i couldnt fly today, but this week, i'll continue to carry them away.. only thing that works for them to fly.. I blame it all on flaggin them just one time.. no kidding, but its funny i am training my B team of younger ones, and they also took to the trees when something frightened them. so IDK.. I think they saw the others doing it and are just following..

I hope in time they will start to fly from the kit box.. now that they know hawks are down there as well as up in that tree they settled in.. cause after a hit they find another "safer" place to hang out..


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

well today went well, i got a solid hour and 48min fly, dang , on landing a l had another cooper pop up for a chance, he missed,, I notice most of the hawks miss alot of the time, but i am sure they now are hanging out, and waiting for breakfast/lunch...just wish they would fly out of the loft... not much rolling today tho...


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Hello willygog,

I have 80 ft trees around my loft and a big house about 30 feet high behind my loft and a big cherry tree beside that! So my birds have a difficult approach to their loft too. There are some telephone wires almost above my loft which my birds land on first. Other fanciers, in awkward locations use 'landing poles' to make it easier for their birds to drop. A friend has a metal pole, about 15 feet high with a 'cross' on top of it, which is about 10 feet from his loft. 

I no longer 'flag' my youngsters, a kit I flagged, landed on the big house and they persistently used that as a landing point. They were almost impossible to discourage from the habit.

Re. birds exiting the kit box, perhaps restricting the amount of flying time your birds are getting may make them more enthusiastic about flying. I fly my youngsters every couple of days (from a kit box) and all but one or two leave the box as soon as the doors are opened. Maybe your youngsters would benefit from a "day off" occasionally? 

I vary the amounts and type of feed I use, dependant on how the birds fly and perform. I use maple peas, conditioning mix and wheat.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Yes that flagging idea is not a good one, this for me all started with that one flag.. now I only use the flag if they come in to early.. 

Food for me is wheat, mostly but i also use a mix a typical pigeon mix, i use it mostly for the birds that are in the breeding coop.. 

I have to lock them down a bit now , due to the bops, they have me figured..

I purchased some heated drinkers for them, wow what a mess they make.. floor gets soaked.. makes cleaning a snap tho .. not really ,, a big mess.. but i guess i have to use them till spring..i put some wood shavings in there till i figure out how come they make such a mess.. they fill really high almost the lip..
might try to figure out how to fix that ...

Oh i have no problem with them going out, its that they just fly up a tall tree and sit .. I really dont think these birds have what they need , I have made a purchase for next year to breed from..Those new ones are quality rollers not from a feather farm..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Good Luck.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

By the way.. ANY strain of pigeon, IF it is a Flying Breed can be trained to Loft Fly, Ferals, commons included. 
Even show rollers can be trained to loft fly for 40 mins or more, if managed properly.
I will be looking forward to hear how your "New" genetics work.


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

Well the last few days i am getting hour to hour and a half fights.. I am giving a cup and a 1/4 of wheat, once a day.. flying in the morning, I am still boxing them before release, but they come down fast when called.. I see them starting to roll, some are only doing one spin, then one more,, then going back to the kit.. one is spinning and dropping about 5 ft.. same with a couple others,, my "B" kit is now starting to fly around the yard and so far not making for a favorite spot in the trees, but these are not going to get flagged.. ever  I expect them to take to the air shortly.. RULE #1 Never Flag a young kit! still learning as i go.. with lots of advice.. some actually good  Thanks to those that gave their advice..


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## willygog (Apr 22, 2014)

I locked them down for a couple day, hoping hawk problem leaves.. so far last two days nothing seen ,, im hopeful I can get a few good days... the "B" kit is gonna be a while before they make with the program, i hope i can get a few winter days going,, water is freezing here also last two nights.. gotta do something about that next....

I purchased those 3.5 gallon plastic heated drinkers,, bad move, they leak pretty badly, the floor of the loft gets soaked.. and its a mess-a-crap to clean, not a nice job.. so dont get those. If i can find another way to do it I'll post what i found that works best.. I got to do something, its freezing already..


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