# Law Trouble



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

So i put up a new loft right in my back yard, and not even 24 hours later this guy in a uniform comes to my loft asking me if i have a permit for the pigeons. I tell him no, and he tells me i have to get rid of them by tuesday. He said that a neighbor had called and complained. What should i do? They are not even bothering anyone because i dont even fly them. Any ideas?>


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

alb23m said:


> So i put up a new loft right in my back yard, and not even 24 hours later this guy in a uniform comes to my loft asking me if i have a permit for the pigeons. I tell him no, and he tells me i have to get rid of them by tuesday. He said that a neighbor had called and complained. What should i do? They are not even bothering anyone because i dont even fly them. Any ideas?>


Did you check to see if it was ok to put up a loft? What do your local ordinances say?
There's always a bit of controversy on this, but IMO, you should NOT just put up a loft and get birds just because you want to. You need to check to make sure it's legal to do so BEFORE you do it.
Do I like the idea that big government can tell me what I can and can't do in my own back yard? Of course I don't, BUT, that's the way it is and until it's changed, that's the way it will be and when this scenario happens, guess who suffers? The pigeons..........
Best be checking the local laws and see if you have a leg to stand on.


----------



## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Where do you live? I can help you look up restrictions and the permit process. My advice is to get as big of cage you can afford and bring them inside until you get the permit. In my neighborhood I went to each neighbor before I built my coop and asked them how they felt about me building one. I told them that if at anytime they see poop in thier yard or house I would clean it up for them. I got lucky because everyone was really nice and said they love the sound of my pigeons.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's what I found without looking too hard......

http://gcp.esub.net/cgi-bin/om_isap...nfobase=ha0182.nfo&softpage=Browse_Frame_Pg42



§ 89-16. Permit required. 


No person shall keep or maintain any live animals or live poultry within the borough without first having secured a written permit therefor from the Board of Health, granted by said Board at one of its regular meetings. 




§ 89-17. Application for permit. 



Any person desiring to keep or maintain any live animals or live poultry within the borough shall, before keeping or maintaining the same, make written application to the Board of Health, setting forth therein what kind of live animals or live poultry the applicant desires to keep or maintain, the location and kind of enclosure in which the same are proposed to be kept or maintained, the approximate maximum number which the applicant is likely to keep and maintain and that, in the event a permit therefor is granted, he will not keep or maintain a greater number than the maximum which may be allowed by said permit. 




§ 89-18. Expiration of permit; fee. EN 




Any permit granted pursuant to this Article shall expire on the 31st day of December in each year and, provided that said person shall continue to meet the full requirements of this Article, shall be renewed annually. A fee as provided in Chapter 95, Fees, shall be paid for each such permit issued or for any renewal thereof. Every such permit or any renewal thereof may be revoked by said Board of Health for any violation of this Article, which may be in addition to the imposition of any other penalty herein provided. 




§ 89-19. Housing. 




No live animals or live poultry shall be kept or maintained in any dwelling house or any part thereof or in any tenement house or in any part thereof or in any building occupied or capable of being occupied by human beings or be allowed to run at large, but the same shall be housed in proper structures suitable for the kind of live animals or live poultry being kept or maintained and enclosed in runways. Said structures and runways shall at all times be kept in a thoroughly clean and sanitary condition and be inoffensively and unobjectionably maintained. No part of any structure or runway shall be nearer than seventy-five (75) feet to any building, occupied or unoccupied by human beings, or any church, school or public building. 




§ 89-20. Applicability. 




The provisions of § 89-19 of this Article with respect to the location of structures and runways shall not apply to marketmen or persons dealing in live poultry, but in every such case a special permit shall be required, which permit shall be granted under such restrictions and conditions as the Board of Health may deem necessary for the public health. 




§ 89-21. Nuisances. 




No permit shall be issued for the keeping or maintaining of live animals or live poultry in any place where the same would be or constitute a nuisance to any person residing in the vicinity of the place where such live animals or live poultry are to be kept or maintained. 




§ 89-22. Issuance of permit. 




All permits shall be issued by the Clerk of the Board of Health after approval thereof by said Board, as aforesaid, and shall specify the place where and the maximum number of live animals or live poultry that may be kept or maintained thereon.


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Excellent advice (and research), Renee.


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I think Alb23m is in New Jersey...Not sure what part though...

Do you consider homing pigeons poultry?, nuisance or just pet...This is something that's playing in my head everytime I read about having birds as a ______ (pet, hobby...etc)...

Well, let me share with you something I did way before I built my loft and started my flock...I worked around my neighbors houses for 4 years...I helped them fix something inside their homes, backyard, roof, or maybe drive them to their destination once in a while (if I see them walking)...I'm not doing all that because I know I will or want to have some pigeons, but it happens that my nature way pays off by helping them when I moved in...I'm not saying for you to go do what I do, but we're in different area...I have asked 2 home owners to my left and 2 home owners to my right...Across the street, is my buddy, so he don't care about my hobby... and the backyard home owners are not against animals of any kind, so I continued and finished it...Then the 1st pigeon came in my backyard and that's how it started...They were so fascinated with what I'm building, so I told them, then I asked them if they have anything against pigeons...They said "no"...That's the end of it...


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pegasus said:


> I think Alb23m is in New Jersey...Not sure what part though...
> 
> *Do you consider homing pigeons poultry?, nuisance or just pet...This is something that's playing in my head everytime I read about having birds as a ______ (pet, hobby...etc)..*.
> 
> Well let me share you something I did way before I build my loft and started my flock...I worked around my neighbors houses for 4 years...I helped them fix something inside their homes, backyard, roof, or maybe drive them to their destination (once in a while) if I see them walking...I'm not doing all those because I know I will or want to have some pigeons but it happens that my nature way pays off by helping them when I moved in...I'm not saying for you to do what I do but we're in different area...I did asked 2 home owners on my left and 2 home owners on my right...Across the street is my buddy so he don't care about my hobby and the backyard home owners is not against animals of any kind so I continue and finished it...Then the 1st pigeon came in my backyard and that's how it started...They were so fascinated what am I building so I told them, then asked them if they have anything against pigeons...They said "no"...That's the end of it...



Oliver, doesn't really matter...........the ordinance for this persons area says "animals OR poultry"......regardless of how pigeons are classified.......they ARE animals, period. No getting around that one.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

well i called my town up Hawthorne NJ, i explained to them that the new coop, is a better version of what i already had, and that i already had pigeons before. they said that they would call me back.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

alb23m said:


> well i called my town up Hawthorne NJ, i explained to them that the new coop, is a better version of what i already had, and that i already had pigeons before. they said that they would call me back.


I hope for your sake AND the birds, that they'll let you slide..........but if your neighbor is complaining, whether it's a legit complaint or not.........he/she/they could cause you trouble and win in the long run. 
Good luck.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

i also have the pigeon club to tell them that i already belong to them and they said to give every members phone number if i had to, so it can be proof that i had birds before and i didnt just get them.
Also my neighbors are cool, but i think the one that complained are the neighbors 2 houses down.


----------



## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

Scary.  

I hope it works out for you. Sheeesh.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

Thanks, i hope everything works out too.


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Well input Renee, thanks for the 411...I was in total confusion about it...Oh, I miss talking to you too ...

Alb23m, if you belong or are a member of a club, maybe they can tell you about the ordinance or your rights about having some pigeons or if you're able to keep pigeons or not...I agree with Renee...No matter if you are able to build or not, if you have a/some neighbor(s) who are against pigeons around, that will be an issue that you will encounter later on...Do you have a big backyard that you can build a small coop/loft? Not trying to shove this but regardless of big backyard or small if you have a GD neighbor like what you have now, it's a problem...


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

yea, if they say i cant keep them, i will build a really small coupe over the side of the house and only fly maybe 10-15 birds, without the naighbors seeing them.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

alb23m said:


> yea, if they say i cant keep them, i will build a really small coupe over the side of the house and only fly maybe 10-15 birds, without the naighbors seeing them.


I give up.............


----------



## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Just an FYI - 

Written in any code and ordinance is this little demon sentance that says:

If any person complains or notifies the city that it is a nuisance to them they will revoke your right to keep ANY animal that is declared a nuisance.

And it is that reason I give my neighbors free eggs from my quiet almost non-quacking ducks and offer them free pigeon flights for thier parties. Make no mistake....I bend over backwards for my neighbors because I care more about my hobby/side business than anything else. Because I know that at any given time they could ruin my fun for any reason and at any time.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> I give up.............


lol ok........ Give down if u want to.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

alb23m said:


> yea, if they say i cant keep them, i will build a really small coupe over the side of the house *and only fly maybe 10-15 birds*, *without the naighbors seeing them*.


Just curious, how do you intend on doing that?

Cindy


----------



## Deluhathol (Jan 26, 2009)

Ok I have a question. How would one go about finding out what laws/regulations are present in the county that they live in?  I live in Contra Costa County California by the way.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Just curious, how do you intend on doing that?
> 
> Cindy


well i had them for around 6-8 months in the smaller coop and no one complained or knew they didnt see them, now that i built the new bigger one they can be seen right in he back yard from neighbors.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

Deluhathol said:


> Ok I have a question. How would one go about finding out what laws/regulations are present in the county that they live in?  I live in Contra Costa County California by the way.


Call up your towns municipal building, or go there yourself and ask


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Lovebirds said:


> I give up.............


Renee, sometimes that's just the best course...


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Deluhathol said:


> Ok I have a question. How would one go about finding out what laws/regulations are present in the county that they live in?  I live in Contra Costa County California by the way.


You might want to call your local county assessors office.
If they don't have the information available, they should be able to direct you to an office that does.

Cindy


----------



## Deluhathol (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm actually getting ready to build a new loft for my birds. Would be a good idea to make sure I don't need any permits to build it due to the size.


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

ggoss1 said:


> Just an FYI -
> 
> Written in any code and ordinance is this little demon sentance that says:
> 
> ...


I like your strategy here. I'll scratch your back if you let me keep my birds! lol.


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Deluhathol said:


> I'm actually getting ready to build a new loft for my birds. Would be a good idea to make sure I don't need any permits to build it due to the size.


I would suggest to get a permit before you go and build your loft. You don't want the same thing happening to you. Like Renee said the birds are the ones that suffer!


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

alb23m said:


> well i had them for around 6-8 months in the smaller coop and no one complained or knew they didnt see them, now that i built the new bigger one they can be seen right in he back yard from neighbors.


... and now that they know they are there, and at least 1 neighbor doesn't like them, you will be watched. If you have birds illegally (ie. the city doesn't say "it's ok because you had them before" and you've been told to get rid of them (for whatever reason but particularly because of no permit), the CITY will also be watching and, most likely, you will be fined for (1) having the pigeons without a permit & therefore, in counter-obeyance of city ordinance and (2) not complying with the official warning/direction given to you, again in counter-obeyance of city ordinance).

btw, you said you've had them for 8 or 9 months already. Was the City Ordinance that you're fighting put into effect within the last 8 or 9 months? If not, they are unlikely to consider your prior (albeit, unnoticed) non-compliance as justification for continued non-compliance.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> I give up.............





wolfwood said:


> Renee, sometimes that's just the best course...


And sometimes, its best to just keep it to yourself.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> I give up.............





wolfwood said:


> Renee, sometimes that's just the best course...





alb23m said:


> And sometimes, its best to just keep it to yourself.


YOU asked the first question. I don't believe that I've ever been anything but helpful to you? If I'm wrong about that, please tell me.
When you don't obey the law, it catches up with you at some point. And not "knowing" the law isn't an excuse.
I'll keep out of this conversation from here on out.
Like my Momma used to tell me........."you made your bed, now you gotta lay in it"..........unfortunately, if things don't work out, the pigeons are the ones who will have to be moved when it's all said and done.  But I guess that wasn't a consideration.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL! sounds like this Person just moved into the Wrong Neighborhood! Dave


----------



## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Everyone please just take one of these and call me in the morning......


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Get the permit for now. You can then deal with this neighbor later. Ask how can you satisfy your neighbor's concern later. I am partly lucky because I had good dealings with my 3 neighbor's. The last one not much, but I talked to them already and told them about racing homers, ferals and chickens and the law. The only worries I have is that there is this new vacant house. I don't know any potential owner who may or may not like pigeons. I hope that the new owner is pet/animal friendly as well.

If the law says get a permit, just get one and helped government has some money.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

So you are saying i cant get a permit now because the neighbor does not allow me to keep pigeons?


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

I don't believe anyone said that. In fact, i believe the advice has been to try to get a permit as soon as possible, but to understand that it may be more difficult now that a neighbor has complained.


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Wow ...I didn't know that a simple question will come out like a roaring/charging lion...Let me get the pill now before I get heated up...How much a pill or are you selling them by pounds?, if so let me take 10 poundds and I take them all at once...I know how this goes...I prefer to be ready...My post is 1030 now , if I go along with this post I might end up 1500 just for this thread...What a bummer...


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

alb23m said:


> So you are saying i cant get a permit now because the neighbor does not allow me to keep pigeons?




Oy!


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Alb23m, word of advice*



alb23m said:


> So i put up a new loft right in my back yard, and not even 24 hours later this guy in a uniform comes to my loft asking me if i have a permit for the pigeons. I tell him no, and he tells me i have to get rid of them by tuesday. He said that a neighbor had called and complained. What should i do? They are not even bothering anyone because i dont even fly them. Any ideas?>


I will tell you this...Do not let anyone in inside your property unless they have a proof or even a search warrant/court order...I don't care less if they are city officials...If they can not provide me anything, they can not enter...I am not saying this is your fault too but sounds to me you let them see your loft/coop and now they are taking actions against you...I honestly think not even your nextdoor neighbor can take pictures of you or your property with-out your consent...You also have the rights to say " I will never let you in, unless you have the proper papers to show" but I think that's too late now, since they have or had seen the loft/coop...If I were you, when the uniform person asked something about pigeons , you should of said, "they are not my pigeons" you are only feeding them when they come to your backyard...If they insist to see or look, then slam the door...You should know what's your rights...I'm not going to tell you how to beat the system but they have some tricks up their sleeves that we don't even know...Never answer any questions, never open the door, and never let them see what you have...The less things they know the better...


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Sorry, but lying is NEVER good advice. And, although you absolutely should know your rights AND protect them, being rude or offensive is also NEVER good advice.


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Nope I didn't say lie to them...Just don't say anything that you might don't know what you're saying...That's my advice...

Let me tell you more things about city officials...City officials will appraoch you with their name/s and where they work...Maybe they even show you some paperwork to prove that they are legit/valid/for real...See, some of us, when someone knocks on our door, we open it, talk to them, conversate and ask all kinds of questions...You want to know about me, if I know I am not expecting anything (package, visitors/friends or anything) I WILL NEVER OPEN the flipping door...I peek in the peep hole, see who it is, if I don't know you, I don't open the door for you...Anyone can dress up like a police, city officials, or maybe looks like your grandma...Here in the city with bunch of crimes every single day, we learn a lot, all sorts of tricks from good and bad guys...If they know your loft is really illegal...They will notify you on black and white...They might leave you a note on the door to call them about your neighbors discomfort about your birds...Don't get me started now...I haven't taken any of that "Chill Pill" (yet) and I'm heating up...Someone stop me....

I will try to find the site I had read before, about our rights to keep pigeons regardless of city officials...I know I came across some site that I've seen, instructing you not to answer any of their questions...Unless you know what to say...


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Let me tell you more...This is not only for Alb23m, but for everybody else who can read this thread...Entertaining them should be done behind closed doors...You can talk to them outside your property (front steps) if they insist they want to see something, you can say they are not allowed with out any authorizations or proof...See, they know you are only 19 or maybe 20 now, they think you don't know any better, so they will take advantage of this situations...When they knock on your door, you can pretend no one is home or talk to them behind closed doors, if you feel that they want to talk to you more and you don't want to talk to them then just shut the door, if they try to push the door or block it from closing, then take the next step...Call the cops...We from NYC, been through alot of good/bad guys tricks already...Evil crawls the land...We are cautious towards other people, people we don't know...Yes, I do open the door to those who I'm not expecting (e.g. friends, neighbors ONLY) but other people, you can forget about it...They can stay out there as long as they want for all I care...I'm not saying adopt our attitude but everybody should be very careful who you open your door to...There's a lot of people who are homeowners and tenants in apartment buildings, you can start asking them any tricks you got up your sleeves, I bet you they will say the same thing I say here...It's not being rude, it's being cautious...You can never be safe even in your own home...So the best advice is to be careful and don't sleep on crime...


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Ggoss1, I need those pills now*​


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pegasus said:


> *Nope I didn't say lie to them*


Yeah, you sorta did. 



Pegasus said:


> *If I were you when the uniform person asked something about pigeons , you shud of say, "they are not your pigeons" you are only feeding them when they come to your backyard...*


alb23m has made it perfectly clear that these are his birds.

Cindy


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

For example, Wolfwood and Cindy wears a city official uniform and knocks on my door and I see two ladies, if you ladies will ask me a questions " are those your birds flying in your backyard?" I will say there's a lot of pigeons or birds flying in my backyard...Yes its a lie but you only know what I tell you (YOKWITY)...That doesnt mean I will let you see my loft or invite you to my backyard...He admitted its his birds so now what I say to him is just lie...The lawyers have they\ir certificate to lie...To lie for their (clients) murderers and other crimes just to get paid...You make it sound like I'm the only one who do this, please...Who in this earth is an angel? I know I'm not...


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I don't have any problems like Alb23m...So I don't have to lie to any of them...Besides from that, before I build my loft, I ask Housing Dept. ASPCA, Dept of Health, and Building Dept...I also asked if I need to get license to own pigeons...They all say no so I'm breeding raising and flying...Did all that to keep my base covered...


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pegasus said:


> For example, Wolfwood and Cindy wears a city official uniform and knocks on my door and I see two ladies, if you ladies will ask me a questions " are those your birds flying in your backyard?" I will say there's a lot of pigeons or birds flying in my backyard...*Yes its a lie *but you only know what I tell you (YOKWITY)...That doesnt mean I will let you see my loft or invite you to my backyard...He admitted its his birds so now what I say to him is just lie...The lawyers have they certificate to lie...To lie for their (clients) murderers and other crimes just to get paid...You make it sound like I'm the only one who do this, please...Who in this earth is an angel? I know I'm not...


Pegasus,
I'm not looking for an argument.
I was just pointing out that you did infact _suggest_ lying to a 'uniformed person' when you said you didn't.
And you have just confirmed it with your statement (highlighted above).

Individuals can do what they want, but to _advise_ someone to say/do something that is clearly wrong, may come back to bite both parties in the fanny.  

A law professior once said, "If you don't know your rights, you have no rights." With that said, it's everyone's _own_ responsibility to _find out_ what their rights are.

Cindy


----------



## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

I think everyone can agree that we all have the common goal of helping him keep his pigeons.
This is an emotional issue for us, since we all can imagine somthing similar happening to us, even if local laws currently support our right to partake in our shared hobby.
When confronted by a situation like this, I believe it is best to be civil, volunteer as little information as possible, find out exactly to whom you are talking to and get as much information from them as possible.
Be polite, but tell them it as inconvient time for you (it is since you are unprepared) and as soon as they are gone find out what laws pertain to your situation.
Even if you are angry or afraid, stay calm and do not antagonize the officials.
People will generally treat you better if you treat them well and may be more likely to interpret the law in your favor.
I also reccommend, if you are set up for it, that you do free funeral releases for U.S. military personnel, police officers and firemen killed in action. 
It is a kind and noble thing to do and local officials that want to keep their jobs would look very bad in the media when interfering with American heroes last rites.
Keith


----------



## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

There is also a....right to entry law....so even if you say "What pigeons? I feed pigeons in my backyard on a bird feeder!"

If they want to ....they can come right on in and inspect. And if you resist...they are escorted by PD and that my friend is the beginning of the end.

Because then you lied and they will catch you in that lie and that will cost money and or time in jail. Plus no pigeon possibilities ever.

SOOOOOOOOO..........

Here is my solution.....bring your pigeons to a fellow club member for holding. 

Get the city thing sorted out. 

Then....go to each neighbor and ask them how they feel about having pigeons in the neighborhood. 

The one who doesn't like it...will tell you. And then you can do some education..get them involved..and make promises to them. My only neighbors potential issue with them was that they didnt want poop on thier house. I informed them that they are trained to fly real high and then swoop down straight into my coop they were alright with it. And that if any poohs were found I would immediately clean it up.

Then all was right with the world and so can yours...


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

They have the right to enter when they know they have the proof in their hands...They are not going to ask questions unless the proof is already written down...I might sound harsh to explain my opinions but that is how things are when you live in the environment like this...We don't just answer questions, we don't just let anyone in with out any proof, sometimes we have to go to the extent to call the main office for confirmations before letting the officials in...They will get the proof first before they take actions...Once the proof is valid and confirmed, then their next step will be take actions and your ____ is grass...*

Ggoss1* I have the same statements from my other neighbor, "as long as the birds don't land on my roof or window sill, it is okay"...They even said, before I started, NYC already have birds or pigeons all over the place so what is the difference of one person who keep them, train them, contained them or house them...What I'm just saying is, if they approach you in a good term then do the same, but that doesn't mean you will show them or say everything to them with out any paper works...One lawyer told me "one question, one answer", the less word you say the better"...Don't get me wrong they can look down and see my loft in my backyards neighbor backyard but they have to ask their permission before going back there...Since I already spoke to them about my birds, I don't think they will have a chance to see it...See the way I see my situation is, have a good relationship with your neighbors, look out for them, help them and all things will favor for you...

No argument I'm only stating my opinion and having some adult discussions...


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

They said they will come and inspect everything for me to get a permit.
I mean why would they take them away if they are of no threat. Now if the health officials from my town come, will it cost me anything or do the taxes cover everything kinda like the police officers/firefighter etc... I did not want to ask them, felt weird...


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

alb23m said:


> They said they will come and inspect everything for me to get a permit.
> I mean why would they take them away if they are of no threat. Now if the health officials from my town come, will it cost me anything or do the taxes cover everything kinda like the police officers/firefighter etc... I did not want to ask them, felt weird...


GOOD FOR YOU!!!

No, the inspection shouldn't cost you anything


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The permit likely will cost you a small amount, if they do approve you.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Yes, let them inspect and get your permit. That is the first step. The next step is the potential "hell" with your neighbor. That neighbor can shut you down if he/she started complaining and ordinance code will be imposed. Your neighbor doesn't seem pigeon friendly. I'll say good luck. Let the law be on your side. It would have been nice if the permit also includes something that will shut your neighbor's mouth. People should mind their own business. You did read your ordinance code, right? Some of those codes tell how big the shed/loft is, etc.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

They called me today and said that i have to write a letter asking permission to keep pigeons. And after i do that, i have to go in for a meeting on June 18th. I have no idea what or how to write the letter. I dont want to sound stupid or not convincing...


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Ask the AU and IF club for help on that one. They probably have sample letters. 

Those officials seem interested in you that they actually call. Good sign. I supposed in that letter they require how many you are planning to keep, how you are going to take care of them, housing, care and probably how you are going to conform to the rules (ordinances). You probably can add some interesting facts about pigeons. That pigeon organization probably has promotional pamphlet that you can use. So it seems you are asking them permission to have pigeons that you will take care of, capable of doing and that you are going to abide by the law. In those meetings you will probably can educate them about the beauty of pigeons.


----------



## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

alb23m said:


> They called me today and said that i have to write a letter asking permission to keep pigeons. And after i do that, i have to go in for a meeting on June 18Th. I have no idea what or how to write the letter. I don't want to sound stupid or not convincing...


Hi Alb23m, This is an interesting thread and I hope it can stay civil.

All it takes is ONE ANTI-PIGEON/ANTI-ANIMAL PERSON to make life a mess for you. Let's face it most people know nothing about pigeons because they are uneducated on this specie of animal and only know that they multiply, make poop messes and might "carry the bird flu!"People for the most part actually do not know that they are intelligent birds and can even make good pets. Even many younger people have no clue that at one time they were military heroes that served their country.

I have 9 pigeons now and only two of them are allowed out of their coop/aviary. The other ones were raised as pets since babies and would not survive, so I keep them in the coop at night and in the aviary joining it on good days. I keep the pen and coop clean as could be expected. I can take my grand kids or invited guests to view them most any time and the conditions will be clean. A clean pigeon area will not only keep them healthy but will keep vermin from becoming a problem. Keep your loft/coop/flight pen clean and accentuate the surroundings to make it attractive to the human eye too. 

In your presentation note that you would like to maintain X number of pigeons in your pigeon area and state how they will be cared for. Government people like to hear that you know what you are doing and what you intend to do to handle your request should they allow you to have them. I would probably keep the number down to a small size. I had mine built to handle 8 but now have a new rescue that actually adopted me, so it is a bit tight for her. taking care of nine the proper way is taking up about 30 minutes a day for me not counting the bi-monthly cage cleaning that I do or the monthly coop sanitizing that is done. It takes time but I see it as an investment as far as keeping my birds. I know that keeping my area clean and attractive should ward off complaints. Getting along well with your neighbors also is a must. Maybe you can talk to your difficult neighbor about pigeons?

State in your letter why you want to keep pigeons and what and how you intend to care for them and how you will maintain their living area.

There have been times where I have shown area children and some adults my pigeon area to include handling of the pigeons. As a extra plus. I keep hand sanitizer in the aviary to use after handling.

Good luck on your "sales" presentation.


----------



## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*In Nebraska...*

Does NOT cover pigeons but I imagine some of the rules and guidelines pretty much apply. You will see that the _nuisance_ factor is indicated on the code. 


Just checked the *Omaha* Municipal Code and found this:



ARTICLE X. LIVESTOCK
DIVISION 1. GENERALLY
Sec. 6-261. Sanitary conditions of stalls, stables and yards.

Sec. 6-262. Livestock running at large or trespassing on public or private grounds.

Sec. 6-263. Poultry to be enclosed.
*It shall be unlawful for any person to allow poultry, chickens, hens, turkeys, ducks, geese, or other like fowl to be at large within the city, except in enclosed places on private property.*
(Ord. No. 36463, § 2, 12-16-03)

Sec. 6-264. Enclosure for breeding animals.

Sec. 6-265. Exceptions.

DIVISION 2. *PERMIT*
Sec. 6-266. Required for keeping of livestock or poultry. It shall be unlawful for any person to keep, maintain or harbor any horses, goats, sheep, swine, except mini-pigs as defined in article XI of this chapter, cattle or poultry within this city without first obtaining a permit to do so from the health department.

(Ord. No. 36463, § 2, 12-16-03)

Sec. 6-267. Application. Any person desiring to obtain a permit required by the provisions of this division shall make application therefor in writing on a form furnished by the health department stating:

(a) The name and location of the applicant.

(b) The kind and number of animals or fowl to be kept.

(c) The name of the person in charge of the animals or fowl, if different from the name and location of the applicant.

(d) Such other information as the department may require.

(Ord. No. 36463, § 2, 12-16-03)

Sec. 6-268. Investigation. Upon receipt of an application for a permit required by the provisions of this division, the health officer or his duly authorized representative shall investigate the premises and the manner in which the animals or fowl are to be kept.

(Ord. No. 36463, § 2, 12-16-03)

Sec. 6-269. Conditions for issuance. A permit required by the provisions of this division shall be issued only if the location and the keeping of animals or fowl is, in the opinion of the health department, *such as not to be a health hazard or nuisance to the surrounding neighborhood.*

(Ord. No. 36463, § 2, 12-16-03)

Sec. 6-270. Revocation.

Sec. 6-271. Duration. All permits issued under the provisions of this division shall be valid for a period of one year, running from January 1 to December 31.

(Ord. No. 36463, § 2, 12-16-03)



http://www.municode.com/Resources/ga...=10945&sid=27.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

I will use these question for the permission letter.

(a) The name and location of the applicant.

(b) The kind and number of animals or fowl to be kept.

(c) The name of the person in charge of the animals or fowl, if different from the name and location of the applicant.

(d) Such other information as the department may require.

I received the envelope in the mail with a paper inside saying everything you said in the above post.


----------



## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

I hope everything works out well for you.


----------



## alb23m (Nov 30, 2008)

A Little Update...
The Board of health contacted me the other day and told me the council meeting will be held on Thursday June 11. She told me that they also require the coop to be 75ft from any building, which it's not. It is 45ft from my house, 55 from both my neighbors, i measured today. Her exact words were, " the coop is not 75ft from any building so it is useless for you to even come in and have a meeting with the council on the 11th." I told her that i want to come in and talk to them. I also got signatures from both my neighbors saying it is alright with them for me to keep the birds.
So i guess the 11th decides weather i can have them or not. If i cant can i build a little coop in the attic right by the window and keep some rollers or highflyers, or do i need a permit for that too. I don't see why i cant keep them in my own house?


----------



## KO Loft (Jul 1, 2007)

*The Legal Eagle Lol*

Sorry i have been busy so could not reply to this sooner but look up the local ordinances and make sure you get clarification. Surprisingly Pigeons may be birds and animals but in the legal field that may take them elsewhere if they are classified as livestock in the ordinance, thus not making them legally "animals" because animals may have been meant to pets. In certain areas the right to own pigeons is not a right to own pigeons per se but a right to raise livestock and the time when the statutes were written pigeons were defined as livestock. In a local municipality here in michigan there is an ordinance that prevents the owning of more than 5 animals, but the same city allows for the raising of livestock (owner of property has 15 cows!!). Cows are animals but not animals under the code. 

Words of advice is to not put up a loft until all neighbors will sign a variance or be faced with the eventual removal of the loft and birds at your expense when a new neighbor moves in. 

joe o 
attorney and pigeon guy


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

It sounds like dogs and cats are animals, if i had to get rid of my birds, i would go on a crusade. The cops would be after every one in town, and then i would start on the junk cars. There is probably even an ordanance about how tall your grass can grow. I wouldn't just get even, i would get real even. Take pics.
Dave


----------



## seismic wonder2 (Aug 15, 2009)

Dogs and cats are animals....bet they have one of those...Do THEY have a permit?


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

He Hee I love SA, you can have lions in your garden and feed them neighbors, no one cares. In some countries though you need permit for dogs and cats too.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

plamenh said:


> He Hee I love SA, you can have lions in your garden and feed them neighbors, no one cares. In some countries though you need permit for dogs and cats too.



LOL, now that's the country I want to live in.

Reti


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

plamenh said:


> He Hee I love SA, you can have lions in your garden and feed them neighbors, no one cares. In some countries though you need permit for dogs and cats too.


 well in your country you can claim its not your lion and whos to say any different lol


----------



## seismic wonder2 (Aug 15, 2009)

"OK, If I can't have a cougar in my yard...YOU tell him he has to go..."
LOL


----------

