# Canker - with limited meds - sos



## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Canker - 'Sunshield' - sos*

Found young pigeon, bout 1 year, with probable Canker. Inside mouth, white cheesy, on right side, with swollen throat that feels hard to the touch. Bird is weak, but stands. Cannot eat seeds as they get stuck & have to be removed. Have given very, very little Kaytee Exact & know must give much, much more to keep bird alive. No stores here have Fish-Zole (Metronidazole) & they have all now closed & will be closed until this Tuesday due to holiday. Only meds I have are Wormout by Vetrafam & Fish Pen (Penicillin) by Thomas Labs which in the past I have used at 1/2 tab for 5 to 7 days. Any suggestions for the here & now??? SOS


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where basically are you? (we may have resources in your area)

Pidgey


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

I am in San Francisco, CA. Am keeping bird warm with heat lamp.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We have some members there. Are you in San Francisco itself or one of the nearby cities like Oakland?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let's see if we can hook you up with Jaye.

Pidgey


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

In San Francisco. I can take bus within city but do not have other transportation. 
arfarf


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I just PMed Jaye, we'll just have to wait and see. I'll also send an email here in a second.

The problem is that odds are we can't wait that long. So, we'll try to find some meds quicker than that.

Pidgey


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Believe bird has excellent chance if can receive correct meds. Thank you for your efforts. Really would like to help this little guy.
arfarf


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Elizabethy is also in the SF area.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I sent a email to Elizabethy.
Wildcare is open over the weekend. You might give them a call if our members don't respond. In addition, you might email Jaye and Elizabethy your phone number so they can make contact with you.
http://www.wildcarebayarea.org/site/PageServerou.


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Hope can connect with someone nearby (San Francisco) to help this little bird. Pigeon is young, gentle, dark feathered beauty who needs a little help very soon. Believe he could make it!
arfarf


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you post a picture of the bird with emphasis on the jawline and maybe even inside?

Pidgey


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Pidgey - Working on photo...
arfarf


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Canker photo...*

Sorry for photo quality. Photo has circled in red 2 areas in back of throat that are Canker, yellow & cheesy. Please keep trying to locate meds to help this little guy. Will try to give a much needed small dose of Kaytee Exact soon.
arfarf


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Other views...*

Here is a front view of pidge.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Arfarf!

Thanks for the photos. Yep .. that beak is already out of alignment due to the canker growth(s). I'm pretty sure that Pidgey has alerted our members in the area and hopefully you will be hearing from them soon. I'm going to try another person or two that I know.

Terry


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Good to hear from you Terry. I surely hope someone can help. Will try to give a minimum of Kaytee Exact to keep him going. SOS Please assist.
arfarf


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please send me your phone number via private message. I think I've found a source for some medication.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have passed your phone number on. If you aren't contacted tonight, we will track someone down tomorrow.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

ArfArf have you tried to send an email, or private message to either Jaye or Elizabethy, or made contact with wildcare? I believe Wildcare has been a big help to pigeons in the past, I recognize the name from reading it here.


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

The pidge is weak but alive & standing. Will very very small amount of Kaylee Exact now through syringe. Hope someone is nearby (located within central San Francisco) who can help with meds.
arfarf


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, he'd need about four dry level teaspoons of Kaytee per day before it's mixed (regardless of the water) in order to maintain weight if he's a smaller bird (~250 grams), more if he's bigger.

Pidgey


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

I got about 20 cc of Kaytee Exact in him. Will give another 20 cc in a few minutes. 
arfarf


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I sure hope you get meds soon, if it wasn't for the mail not running due to the long weekend, I'd send you my Spartrix, but you probably can get it locally alot sooner then it would take for mine to get to you by mail now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Uhh... no need to give it all at once--spread it out over the day. Have you monitored how much dry powder you're using to make that amount?

Pidgey


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

I am mixing Kaytee Exact more toward 1/3 parts water because the pidge is so weak. If pidge were stronger would mix 1/2 parts water. The pidge stands quietly. (Never sits.) Most of the time the eyes are shut. Am using a nice red heatlamp. The poops are white/yellowish from the Kaytee & there are some small very dark poops which were from whatever the bird had eaten previously. When had first found bird had removed some small blackish bits from mouth. Possible some kind of berry/seed/? Pidge is resting. Need meds soonest. Time is the enemy.
arfarf


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have just sent you Elizabeth's phone number via Private Message. I also sent her your number via email. I noticed her message to me was early this morning so I would give it a couple of hours before calling her. If you are on dial up, might be a good idea to log off so she can get a hold of you if she is trying now.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I understand the frustration, and obviously this pigeon needs some very strong medication, fast. To get things started, though, do you have any of the following:
Colloidal Silver (health food store)
Garlic (Stabilized Allicin) (health food store)
Neem Oil (Azadirachta indica) (health food store)
WEST AFRICAN BAY (Pimenta racemosa) (pimafix in the fish medicine aisle.)

Basically the point is to bring relief while waiting for the medicines to arrive. Silver kills the TRICHOMONAD protozoa. Garlic kills the protozoa but also takes care of secondary infections such as coccidia and yeast. Neem oil kills the infection causing the growths and reduces them.
Extract from the leaves of Pimenta racemosa var. ozua, is effective against acute inflammation processes, by oral route and when topically applied. The anti-inflammatory behavior of the extract was similar to that exhibited by the selective cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor, indomethacin. The antibacterial activity of essential oils of Pimenta racemosa was determined against Gram (+) and Gram (-) bacteria. P. racemosa demonstrated pronounced activity. These data would indicate the potential usefulness of the oil as a microbiostatic, antiseptic or disinfectant agent.
(This means that it kills microbes such as the Trichomonad protozoa, reduces the swelling in the throat, makes it easier to breath, but Pimenta racemosa only works on certain swelling. It won't reduce swelling in a foot, but it works wonders on the throat and ears and nose.)

When I was in a similar situation, these things I just happened to have in my cabinet and the dove improved in a matter of hours. I dabbed some Pimafix on the swelling and put silver down his throat, added garlic to the food.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I have e-mailed you, arf.

*Folks...what kinda antibiotics for Canker ?
*
I have both Clavimox and Cipro.....the latter's an aerobic, the former's an anaerobic....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> I have e-mailed you, arf.
> 
> *Folks...what kinda antibiotics for Canker ?
> *
> I have both Clavimox and Cipro.....the latter's an aerobic, the former's an anaerobic....


Thank you Jaye. We have it handled. Elizabethy does have canker meds... Metronidazole.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jaye, neither are for canker. He really needs something like Metronidazole, Spartrix, Ronidazole, fishzole.....

I think he should pursue getting something from a pet store where they may carry fishzole.

This is a link to a good post dealing with this. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=284476&postcount=10


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Charis, that is great.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Charis, that is great.


Thank you. Pidgey helped too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Didja' end up havin' to call the number from Dan?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Didja' end up havin' to call the number from Dan?
> 
> Pidgey


Dan gave me Elizabeth's number.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Charis said:


> Thank you Jaye. We have it handled. Elizabethy does have canker meds... Metronidazole.


Awesome! I hope he gets the meds soon. Tuesday is, as everyone says, too long to wait.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

The 3 of us are meeting at arf's place in an hour.....Eliz. with th meds, me because I wanna see what Canker looks like, having never come across it myself....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jaye said:


> The 3 of us are meeting at arf's place in an hour.....Eliz. with th meds, me because I wanna see what Canker looks like, having never come across it myself....


Excellent news! Many thanks to our San Francisco contingent for helping with this! Please keep us posted.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jaye said:


> The 3 of us are meeting at arf's place in an hour.....Eliz. with th meds, me because I wanna see what Canker looks like, having never come across it myself....


It can be pretty horrible. Here are two that xxmoxiexx got, saved, worked with and eventually sent to me:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ol-one-beak-amp-scissors-26245.html

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Man, I love it when a good plan comes together.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

We also have Ohlone Humane Society Wildlife Rehabilitation Center in the Newark/Fremont area:

http://www.ohlonehumanesociety.org/

They are open during the Spring, Summer and Fall and closed for the Winter
months. They do take pigeons in and are a very good resource. 

One thing to remember for all of the pigeons that come through here, when they are borderline in terms of releasability, it's good to try and keep them in private hands that gives the option down the road of finding a home for them if need be. If borderline and signed over to a facility, once determined as unreleasable, they will unfortunately, be euthanized.

Once you have the meds in hand, you might want to also (in addition to systemic dosing) apply topically to the affected area by dabbing or drizzling the medicated solution directly onto the damaged tissue.

I've sent you my info if I can be of any help w/meds or syringes or anything
else.

fp


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Canker update!!!*

Update - Both Elizabeth & Jaye stopped by to see my Cankered pidge. Elizabeth was able to give it a good, direct dose of Metronadazole. She could only feed it a small amount of Kaytee Extract, as I had. I now have the correct meds to tend to the Canker. (Roni-Plus, Metronadazole & Spartrix) I am giving fresh water with vitamins & feeding about three times daily Kaytee Exact. The meds Roni-Plus & Metronadazole will start tomorrow, one tab for three days & starting tomorrow Spartrix, one tab for two days. The pidge is underweight. If all goes well, I plan on giving the pidge a small amount of active-cultured plain yogurt in about a week to replace necessary bacteria from using the anti-biotics. I appreciate the support. It is so 'awesome' to get this little pidge treated with the correct meds. Special thanks to Elizabeth, Charis, Pidgey, Jaye, etc. Will keep you posted to pidgie's condition. Great work!
arfarf


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*'Sunshield'*

The pidgie with Canker has been named - 'Sunshield'. May he live long, with a full life & fly safely.
Blue Skies,
arfarf


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

arfarf said:


> Update - Both Elizabeth & Jaye stopped by to see my Cankered pidge. Elizabeth was able to give it a good, direct dose of Metronadazole. She could only feed it a small amount of Kaytee Extract, as I had. I now have the correct meds to tend to the Canker. (Roni-Plus, Metronadazole & Spartrix) I am giving fresh water with vitamins & feeding about three times daily Kaytee Exact. The meds Roni-Plus & Metronadazole will start tomorrow, one tab for three days & starting tomorrow Spartrix, one tab for two days. The pidge is underweight. If all goes well, I plan on giving the pidge a small amount of active-cultured plain yogurt in about a week to replace necessary bacteria from using the anti-biotics. I appreciate the support. It is so 'awesome' to get this little pidge treated with the correct meds. Special thanks to Elizabeth, Charis, Pidgey, Jaye, etc. Will keep you posted to pidgie's condition. Great work!
> arfarf


Arfarf, have you weighed the bird and mathematically determined the 
dosage? Two days of Carnidazole/Spartrix seems a bit shy for a bird
w/the visible damage that you posted pics for. Do you have an exact name
for the Roni-plus and Metronidazole combo so folks can find a link and get
more information? Three days of the combo med may be ok, but a lower
longer dose may be more successful combined w/a five day course of
Spartrix/Carnidazole.

fp


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Re: meds...*

The x 3 Roni-Plus (Pontex Holland B.V.) & the x3 Metronadazole are small brown tabs. The bird was weighed but I did not get the weight. The x2 Spartrix (Janssen Pharm*) 10 mg. I have been incredably fortunate to receive this. My 'appreciation' to Elizabeth!!! I thank her!!!
arfarf


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*?*

Question: Why is it a bad sign when a pidgie stands but does not sit? In this case, a pidgie with Canker.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

arfarf said:


> Question: Why is it a bad sign when a pidgie stands but does not sit? In this case, a pidgie with Canker.


Did someone tell you that?
They sleep standing up sometimes AND they lay down sometimes. I don't know that it's a "bad sign".....they even stand on one leg sometimes.


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

I had recently heard that it was an additional bad sign for a pidgie with Canker if it did not sit but only stood. Alas, I do know that pidgies & people stand, sit & sometimes stand on one leg so I do not understand why only standing would represent a symptom...
arfarf


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Just as long as their not standing looking hunched and fluffed up I don't see why there would be a problem with a standing pigeon.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Arf...I wouldn't worry about the standing thing...he/she is looking pretty worn out, poor thing...but showed spirit while Elizabeth was treating her. She got that first dose of Metro in her, and that was super important. Keep up with the meds and keep up with the feedings. It's important you keep him fed well....his weight (if I remember correctly) was 190g...a rock dove don't come much skinnier than that; although he isn't a large example by any means. But while those meds kick in, you gotta get the birdie's weight back up; he cannot afford to lose any more grams.

Great meeting you, keep up the good work....and let's do lunch sometime.

(oh, yeah...I sleep standing on one leg sometimes...'taint no big deal....) (!)


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I visited Arfarf this evening and the bird does have canker in the beak and
throat. The rescue will get 4 days on Spartrix (I had two to add to what
was already left w/Arfarf) and 5-7 days on Metronidazole dosing at the 
rate of 50mg's per kg. These meds will be given concurrently. I showed Arfarf where to find the dosing chart here for Metronidazole/Flagyl.

The canker is obstructing the throat but I was able to gingerly ease the
tube past the damaged tissue on the bird's right side as the preponderance
of the cankerous growth was on the bird's left side....so much so that tubing
was impossible there. The bird received approximately 17cc's of formula and
has water available in the aquarium.

Arfarf has my number and will call as needed, has some other meds to keep on hand, and I left 30cc feeding syringes, which will be less stressful for the bird. I think it's safe to say that we share guarded optimism for this rescue's recovery.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

It sounds like Sunshield is getting the best care possible. 
Wishing the best for him. 

Look forward to further updates.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, that is wonderful you were able to help.

Arfarf, did you ever dream that you would get this kind of response? This forum truly is the very best.


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Update: Sunshield 7 PM...*

7 AM gave Sunshield 25 cc Kaytee Exact with Spartrix 0.5 tab & Metronidazole 2.5 tabs mixed to 10 cc water & dosed at 0.45 cc. Sunshield kept 10 gal tank under red heatlamp. ''Weak'', eyes mostly closed, under weight. ps - Putting feeding tube down Cankered throat is not easy.
photo of Sunshield in tank
Update Sunshield 4 PM
Gave bird 15 cc Kaytee Extract with no meds. Lightly swabbed Canker area in mouth with Roni-Plus mixed with 10 cc water with Q-tip. Surface of tongue is whitish colour instead of healthy pink. Back of throat appears increased Canker. Bird spent much of afternoon sitting, mostly eyes shut. Alert but very weak. Will give 15 cc Kaytee bout 11 PM with Spartrix 0.5 tab & Metronidazole 2.5 tabs mixed to 10 cc water & dosed at 0.4 cc. Tonight/early morning critical.
arfarf


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Healthy tongue is pinkish in colour. Sunshield's tongue is whitish, obviously not a good sign. What does whitish colour mean other then illness?
arfarf


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

It looks like his beak is open just a bit. Is he unable to close it completely?

Can you describe what that little spot is on the side of his head, by his eye?

Cindy


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Spot by eye is Kaytee Extract. Beak is open small amount due to scissoring, related to Canker. 
arfarf


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

arfarf said:


> * *Spot by eye is Kaytee Extract*.
> 
> ** *Beak is open small amount due to scissoring, related to Canker.*
> arfarf


* OK. Just making sure there wasn't something else going on. 

** I was thinking that might be what it was.

Thanks for the clarification. 

Cindy


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Arf....she' already taken 40cc's today ????....that's amazing that you are able to get THAT much food in her (I realize it's significantly diluted, but still ~ good job !!!). 
Hang in there bro...you are on top of it and doing what needs to be done....with 40-50 cc daily, his weight will be creeping up steadily...so that's really great.
Am just wondering (this may be stooopid...so, sorry if so, all....) does a red heat lamp close-range tend to make birdies shut their eyes ? I have never tried one.....(I use Delonghi-style electric/oil-filled portable radiant space heaters).


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Update: Sunshield 11:57 PM...*

Fed Sunshield at 11 PM. Gave meds. Bird has what appears to be mucus in along with the Canker in back area of throat. Have cleared away the mucus several times as blocks air passage. Keep clearing away mucus from back of throat. Situation looks bad.
arfarf


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

arfarf said:


> Fed Sunshield at 11 PM. Gave meds.
> * *Bird has what appears to be mucus in along with the Canker in back area of throat.* Have cleared away the mucus several times as blocks air passage. Keep clearing away mucus from back of throat. *Situation looks bad.*arfarf


Mucus is a sign of advanced canker. Is this the first time you've noticed it? 

Cindy


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Canker, Sunshield Update 6:45 AM...*

Amazingly Sunshield made it through the night. I stayed up til after 3 AM keeping his throat clear by using Q-Tip. Back of throat shows the Canker & from yesterday, early evening mucus which totally blocks airpassage. 
Gave bird Spartrix mixed with 5 cc water @ 6:45 AM.
Will fed Kaytee Exact 15 cc with Metronidazole (Mixed @ 2.5 tabs to 10 cc water @ dose of 0.4 cc) @ 7:30 AM.
Bird very weak. Keeping a close eye on him. Understood mucus is 'bad' sign. Hope meds kick in!
arfarf


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Sending positive thoughts that Sunshine makes a complete recovery. 

You're doing a wonderful job of caring for him. 

Cindy


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Sunshield is gasping. Cannot get to mucus that is probably farther down the throat, blocking airpassage. 
arfarf


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

*Sunshield***RIP****

Sunshield passed @ 8:30 AM, 05/27/08. 
Believe there was mucus blocking air passage, deep down the throat where I could not get at it to remove with Q-Tip.
Had just gone to store & returned with organic apple vinegar in hopes that it would have aided in breaking up the mucus.
Question: What is recommended dosage by drops of the organic apple vinegar to give to very ill pigeon???
I thank everyone who has responded for their assistance.
Sunshield - RIP -
arfarf


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

arfarf said:


> Sunshield passed @ 8:30 AM, 05/27/08.
> Believe there was mucus blocking air passage, deep down the throat where I could not get at it to remove with Q-Tip.
> Had just gone to store & returned with organic apple vinegar in hopes that it would have aided in breaking up the mucus.
> Question: What is recommended dosage by drops of the organic apple vinegar to give to very ill pigeon???
> ...


I'm very sorry this little guy didn't make it, after all your extreme effort to help.

It is *not *safe to administer ACV dropwise to the bird, as it will likely be very irritating, it is, after all, highly acidic. The rate is 1 tablespoon per GALLON of water, so in a small individual feeding cup full of water, that would be maybe a couple of drops. There 16 8-oz. cups to 1 gallon, so into 1 8-oz. feeding cup you would have to measure 1/16th of a tablespoon. A 4-oz. cup, 1/32nd! Like I said...a few drops


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Thank you for the important information on the apple cider vinegar dosage. I never gave any to Sunshield. But at least I have it in stock now & know the dosages.
with appreciation,
arfarf


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm so sorry to hear it. There is another member who's been struggling with an almost identical case. We got her a nebulizer and some Gentomicin to give to the bird for the last few days. She has also had to remove some mucus with a Q-Tip but the bird has been hanging on so far. You're getting pretty desperate when you're going that route but it can help the bird to expectorate (hack the phlegm up). The mucus that's the real danger is the stuff down the trachea that you can't see or get to, obviously.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so very sorry to hear Sunshine was unable to overcome the canker. 
It does sound like it most likely invaded his body. 

Thank you for all you did for him. Rest assured, he was ever so grateful for your kindness & care. 

*" May you now forever fly free, sweet Sunshine."* 

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm so sorry about Sunshield. You did eveything you could. You must be heartbroken. 
As sad as the result, because of that dear little pigeon, you are now better equiped to treat the next canker pigeon you come across and you also have made some wonderful contacts in your area.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

My condolences as well for Sunshine - you sure did all you could to save the little one. As always, I'm beyond impressed by everyone's response to you and Sunshine when swift action was so obviously needed. I'm glad s/he was cared for and a little more comfortable in the final hours. Thank you for taking her/him in. 

Fly high little Sunshine.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Arf, I'm sorry. The birdie couldn't have gotten better care than you provided.

I think the advanced stage of the canker combined with her emaciated state made it very difficult for her to make a comeback. There were surely other secondary things going on internally....190g was alarmingly underweight.

In the end, you gave that birdie comfort, care, and a chance. He would have passed in a far more painful, lonely, and horrible way had it not been for you.

People have said this to me before, as well....and I know it is cold comfort. But it is something. In the spiritual macrocosm of everything...Sunshield had someone who cared for him and showed love.....and this means a whole lot, both here.... and where he is now.....

Take care...get some rest...and let's keep in touch.

G


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## arfarf (Aug 6, 2004)

Thanks Jaye. Read over bout the organic apple cider vinegar & the dosage to help break up mucus. It is listed a couple replies before. Good to keep some on hand. Very helpful information. Yes, keep in touch.
arfarf


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## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

I send you my condolences on the death of your friend, Sunshield. It's really hard when you lose them, I think, because you never get the feeling that you were able to 'make it up to them'. All that care feels so joyous when they heal and sad when they don't. Christopher- you certainly did everything you could to help him. If he ever had a chance, it was the one you made for him.


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