# ferals pigeons, will they ever home?



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

will feral pigeons ever get to a point where they can be let out and they will home to their loft?

Do we need to wait for a generation to be born there?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They are like homers in which you will have more success in getting them to stay if they are young when you get them. So if they are adults it's best to let the babies out. Although sometimes the older ones will just decide to stay. I have a feral hen that trapped in my loft as a young adult and she has yet to leave. She's been up to 30 or 40 miles with my race team.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Gee, if I had a home that offered free room and board, great restaurant, fresh drinks, and companionship, why would I ever want to leave. ferals can be soooooo fickle.


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

this is maybe good news. I want to take a bunch of rescues out of the city and take em to a farm. I do want them to go out in the field/forest to feed themselves.

The land has 4 nice ponds, a mix of oak woodland and grasslands. Theres plenty of seed forage around and we plan on planting out more seed/forage plants for them. The goal is to have them free range and feed/water themselves without input of food and water. The climate is mild, so no large frosts or snow to mention.

Is this feasible?


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, so you have rescued Ferals from the city...and you wanna try to transplant 'em in the country/farm.

The resort sounds quite nice...however...here are some possible likelihoods:

1) When allowed free range, they will home back to the city....or try to and end up lost or predator lunch.

2) Having learned to forage in a city, I am not so sure that they will be able to forage in the country...if they stick around. A Pigeon used to picking up Pizza crust from a gutter, or seeds from the old lady in the park... might not quite get the hang of foraging in a field or off of plants and tree fallings, you know ?

This means even if they are provided with deluxe accommodation...they may end up starving....

THIS PORTION OF MY REPLY HAS BEEN SELF-DELETED ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED WHAT DUCTAPE'S INTENTIONS WERE.....see page 2.

If the rescues are releasable (and providing they were born Feral and not in captivity)....and it sounds like, physically, they are releasable....a better option might be just to release 'em in the city...back into their own context. Streets, sidewalks, rooftops, ledges, gutters, parks, fountains, whatever....

The only issues which would prevent this is if they are not physically whole enough for release (wing/leg/sight damage) or if they were saved as babies and have since acclimated to a closed loft/human care sort of environment. Or if there is now an imminent danger in the city which wasn't there before....

If they were rescued and rehabbed as Adults or even Adolescents, their chance for re-release back in the city is good. You can confirm this by doing a few days of quick *Soft Release* regimen someplace, and seeing if they respond correctly.


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Hi Jaye, thanks for the response there. A few comments:

I think the concept of urban pigeons feeding of pizza crusts is a bit more of the mis-placed stereo-typing we often see associated with pigeons. I live in San Francisco, it is not really a very large city, but the dense sections of it are as dense as most any super urban city in the USA.

I have spent the last 3 years consciously observing these birds in our city, watching their habits and where they tend to hang out. Ya know where i see the most of them? In the parks and open spaces, near seed sources. Sometimes this is people feeding them seeds, but I find pigeons foraging in the bushes and empty lots. They do tend to nest on ledges, sure, but thats simply their nature.

Sure they are opportunistic like most any animal (including humans) but I do think they enjoy eating seed and will do so when they have the chance.

So anyway...

Maybe I would bring the pigeons out to the country to live and keep them locked and wait for the second generation to allow them to free range?

Any tricks we can think of? I wonder if anyone knows anyone who has tried this. I know at least one commercial squab farm in California that started with feral pigeons and bred their own stock, not sure if they free range the birds though. I doubt it.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Is the farm yours or someone who is okay with pigeons? A lot of farmers have the ferals that visit their barns shot so they won't contaminate their livestock feed. If it's your farm or their farm it would be best to keep them locked up in the barn for a while so they will be comfortable with going back in it to roost. They don't naturally sleep in trees but will when they don't have a better option. Then they become easy food for owls, *****, opossums, cats, etc depending on how high up they are and how thick the tree is. Most pigeons that you see in the country travel there daily to feed and return to urban areas to sleep, unless of course there is a barn or similar shelter.


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

thanks for the input Mary!

What I am really after here is if anyone has had any experience getting feral pigeons to acclimate to a new home and then be able to fly them and get them to come back.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I think there are a lot of us who started out with ferals as our first pigeons. Homing instincts were pretty hit and miss, and usually we didn't always care because the birds were free. However, having said that, the longer you give birds a chance to acclimate to your loft before flying them, the better. It it not a guarantee that they will all home, but as others have said, it's more probable with second generation birds.
Not real sure of any ideas that would help raise the homing instincts, but it's worth a try. Good luck!


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ductape said:


> Hi Jaye, thanks for the response there. A few comments:
> 
> I think the concept of urban pigeons feeding of pizza crusts is a bit more of the mis-placed stereo-typing we often see associated with pigeons. I live in San Francisco, it is not really a very large city, but the dense sections of it are as dense as most any super urban city in the USA.
> 
> ...


Hi and thanks for the reply. What n'hood are you in ? I lived in SF for 22 years...

(information self-deleted once ductape's true intentions became apparent) 

I don't wanna bore folks with a back-and-forth...but IMHO, SF is an urban environment, even if one lives out in the Outer Sunset. Even the Pigeons that frequent the parks to bum food off of the duck feeders...that's still a very urban setting and although the parks are pretty...they cannot be mistaken for a farm.

I think you need to really consider this, is all. Consider that "they do enjoy eating seed" is not quite the same as "planting things which will seed and therefore provide the Pigeons with adequate food in a new and unfamiliar environment". "Opportunistic" and "industrious" does not necessarily mean that some innate instinct is gonna kick in when they are confronted with a very non-urban living environment with many a situation they have never really experienced before. I don't wanna harp on this, but it was the first thing which struck me when I read your initial query.

Most "Barn Pigeon" flocks are actually fed by whoever happens to be on the farm...or in the least they are able to bum off of the feed for the other farm animals.


ductape said:


> What I am really after here is if anyone has had any experience getting feral pigeons to acclimate to a new home and then be able to fly them and get them to come back.


I know that is the conversation you wanna jump to...but I just wanna put it out there that there may be a mistaken presumption or expectation that adult Pigeons from SF would be able to acclimate even quasi-successfully to a foreign location and way of life, is all.



ductape said:


> Maybe I would bring the pigeons out to the country to live and keep them locked and wait for the second generation to allow them to free range?
> 
> Any tricks we can think of? I wonder if anyone knows anyone who has tried this. I know at least one commercial squab farm in California that started with feral pigeons and bred their own stock, not sure if they free range the birds though. I doubt it.


Original Add'l Reply and info self-deleted 2/21/12, once I learned of poster's true intentions....


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks so much for your input, it means a lot to me. I hear ya 100% about the prisoner thing, I have thought it through to a point and believe me I am the last person to want to cage the free.

One possible experiment is to keep these urban feral prisoner for the time it takes to hatch one generation or maybe tow or maybe more, experiment with different scenarios. Then release them and gather even more data on how many stick around and how many return home (or just leave assuming we wont be able to afford any expensive tracking equipment).

Even a 50% rate of sticking would be amazing! Even a 10-20% rate would be something to work with, a starting point for more tweeking of the system.

All of it is really good food for thought, and so far, since nobody has come up with a solid answer with numbers and techniques on "re-homing" pigeons, it might be a good experiment to try on some small population.

I suppose I should link to my other thread I have running, which goes into more detail about some of the deeper reasons we would do such a thing.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/wildlands-sanctuary-loft-design-59592.html


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I dig where your intent is...I do think that...in relation to your other thread, you have a lot of balls being juggled in the air.

First off...a sanctuary situation would have people tending the Pigeons. As I said, if you do THAT...then the Pigeon Farm becomes much more feasible. Lord, NoCal needs something like that. Put that sorta sanctuary is pretty different than what you initially described in this thread.

Not only would they now have a more familiar feeding regimen....and ample food served in a manner they are already familiar with (as opposed to expecting/hoping that they can 're-learn' how to forage in a non-urban landscape)....

But as Quazar alludes to in the other thread....you can then have the person tending them also help with birth control (switching the eggs with wooden ones) to keep the population down, which would allow for more to come in and reside there.

I still really think you wanna be clear on whether you should do this with recovered, healed, releasable city Ferals, though. I think a sanctuary can be a great idea for unreleasables...but again it would have to be tended by humans.

Also...I just wanna point out..._a 10%, 20%, 50% 'success' rate at rehoming a city Feral in the country._ You seem OK with that, at least in concept.

But...lets' say that.... 25% 'stay' at the new resort, decide to home there for whatever reason makes 'em do so.... and they don't disappear. You said you'd be stoked at that.

What about the other 75% that _do disappear ? _ You see, one cannot just assume that they have homed back safely to their old digs. Or even assume that they have ended up safely somewhere else.

I would say that a lot of that 75% has been put into a really bad situation. 

Stressful, confusing, unfamiliar, confronted by predators they did not experience in the city. 
I dunno...I guess I just don't see how that becomes preferable to just releasing 'em back into their original neighborhood.

I guess what I am saying is...'experiment' ...runs more risks for healthy, rescued birds than just lettin' em go at home.



ductape said:


> ... so far, since nobody has come up with a solid answer with numbers and techniques on "re-homing" pigeons, it might be a good experiment to try on some small population.


I don't agree with that assertion. I think that the replies here, as well as other threads which asked a similar question to yours....have repeatedly suggested that Adults don't rehome well...that it's the babies born there that home. Perhaps there are no successful techniques because it isn't a successful endeavor....

Also...bodies of water...large bodies. Pigeons don't like crossing large bodies of water. This is common knowledge to racers. Yet SF is surrounded by large bodies of water. You can take 'em 3 possible directions to the farm ~ N, S, E. Only S will maintain an over-land route BACK to their original home if they so decide to (and are capable of) homing back.

Lastly, even bred Homers aren't put into such a situation like that. They are trained starting at short distances then ever-increasing.

Just some things to think about.....


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, Jaye, again thanks for the deep thoughtful answer.

In many cases, the birds I am talking about are not the birds that our exterminators with contracts are releasing. Pest control companies get paid to get rid of birds, from there they dont come back, theoretically. The city of Phoenix, Arizona for example kills many birds every year. My goal would be these birds, otherwise slated for a less savory end. Life on the farm and a chance to survive sound better to me any day than poison and a painful death in the hot desert.

The body of water may be helpful in getting them to not return. Bees go back home also, and if you move the hive far enough, they will learn its new location, but there is a minimum. If you move the hive too close, they will never reprogram their maps. You can move it up to 2 feet per day and no more, or you need to move it something like 3 miles or more. Not in between. 

I dont mean to imply pigeons are anything like bees, just that maybe if I move them over 100 miles away in to the mountains, they might be more likely to stay after acclimation. 

You say here that the answers in these threads and other say that "adult pigeons dont home well". True, but that statement is hardly quantifiable and certainly not anywhere close to a scientific study on the matter. This point of data might be one thing we are tracking and the answer to it may be helpful. You wont know until you try, and as far as I know nobody on record in modern times has tried this. The key there is "as far as I know". It is of course highly likely there is some scientific paper published on the matter, I just dont know where its at. If anyone does, I would love to see it.

On foraging, I see urban pigeons eating seeds in a field of weeds wevery day. Not worried about them finding food among the abundant crops we will be planting for them. 

And if we are starting a pigeon farm out of this, why start with ferals? Why not some commercial bird like the King? For exactly the same reason these ferals may be unpredictable. We want a passive system that requires little input from humans. A wild population of birds is required. We start with the closest thing to wild, and then breed from there with all our target goals in mind. Its not just about breast size here, but ability to survive, disease resistance, tolerance to tannins in acorns, preference of our food crops, etc.

No dummy eggs required, the squab that are born in excess of the desired flock size per the land carrying capacity will be culled and used for human food. This wont be the first pigeon farm tyhat started with feral birds in California, I can name a few. We will be quite different in our approach, and I am sure this will be the first "free range" pigeon farm in California. But then again, squab is just one yield out of this complex system.


----------



## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

ductape said:


> My goal would be these birds, otherwise slated for a less savory end. Life on the farm and a chance to survive sound better to me any day than poison and a painful death in the hot desert.


This sounds all very good .... till you get to the bit about farming & culling...A bit contradictory is it not ??



ductape said:


> On foraging, I see urban pigeons eating seeds in a field of weeds wevery day. Not worried about them finding food among the abundant crops we will be planting for them.


The problem is, the birds you may be aquiring are not nessesarily the same ones you see in fields, and therefore will not nessesarily know that what you have planted is food. Different flocks have different habbits and different routines, some flocks interact and merge with others on their travels, but ultimately stay in their own groups, so unless they are shown what to do as regards your planted food, they may well ignore it.
Prime example of this is a couple of rescues I have. They were found as squeakers not fully able to fly. One is disabled and not able to be released, the other could have been released, but have kept as company for the other & is now too tame. Although both are feral, because they have been brought up eating purely pigeon food (seeds/corn etc) neither will eat things like bread or other human throwaways that the normal free roaming ferals do.
I hand fed them from day one, and taught them to peck etc, but they just wont eat anything else. Yes, they peck at things, and toss them aside.
I think it would be difficult to teach a whole flock of birds a new foraging routine when they are totally dependant on their previous methods.



ductape said:


> And if we are starting a pigeon farm out of this, why start with ferals? Why not some commercial bird like the King? For exactly the same reason these ferals may be unpredictable. We want a passive system that requires little input from humans. A wild population of birds is required. We start with the closest thing to wild, and then breed from there with all our target goals in mind. Its not just about breast size here, but ability to survive, disease resistance, tolerance to tannins in acorns, preference of our food crops, etc.
> 
> No dummy eggs required, the squab that are born in excess of the desired flock size per the land carrying capacity will be culled and used for human food. This wont be the first pigeon farm tyhat started with feral birds in California, I can name a few. We will be quite different in our approach, and I am sure this will be the first "free range" pigeon farm in California. But then again, squab is just one yield out of this complex system.


So is this actually the ultimate goal ?
As you are probably aware, this is a pigeon friendly site and no one on this forum would advocate any part of farming pigeons for food, even if it was only to keep numbers down.
If you have the resourses to be able to be there & cull, theres no reason you cantuse these resourses to swap out eggs for dummies.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ductape said:


> In many cases, the birds I am talking about are not the birds that our exterminators with contracts are releasing. Pest control companies get paid to get rid of birds, from there they dont come back, theoretically. The city of Phoenix, Arizona for example kills many birds every year. My goal would be these birds, otherwise slated for a less savory end.


Trapping and Exterminating Pigeons is illegal in San Francisco and most Bay Area cities...it is in municipal and state codes, and ACC dept's will act on such reports and fine the perpetrators....or worse.

You are really being quite presumptuous. Your assumption is that a Feral Pigeon is going to be killed by a human while living in the city...therefore it's better to pluck them out of their natural environment, put them 100 miles away in a place where they cannot successfully forage, in a place where there is no human care or oversight 90% of the time.....and then be happy if 10% of them 'acclimate' so they can procreate...so you set up an artificial system so they can procreate more than usual, and not allow natural selection to control their population....

....and then when they procreate too much.... you'll just kill the babies. And sell' em.... and make money.

I would put forward that one of the biggest dangers a Feral in your town has...is not from extermination, or being hit by a car, etc...but rather is from a person who is intentionally trying to trap them for their own schemes.....



ductape said:


> The body of water may be helpful in getting them to not return.


I find this an amazing comment. I told you this because the point was it is very inhumane to take a city Feral and put them in a negative situation like that...and you come back and say that the water barrier is great ! Fits right in with your plans.



ductape said:


> I dont mean to imply pigeons are anything like bees, just that maybe if I move them over 100 miles away in to the mountains, they might be more likely to stay after acclimation.
> 
> You say here that the answers in these threads and other say that "adult pigeons dont home well". True, but that statement is hardly quantifiable and certainly _*not anywhere close to a scientific study on the matter*_.


My friend...you come to a Piegon Forum and ask whether Adult Ferals will rehome. The answers you have been receiving, undeniably...*from people with decades more experience than yourself*...is that it isn't a good bet.

.....Yet you insist upon your 'experiment'.

Then you compare 'em to bees.....and at the same time claim that you interested in scientific findings.....



ductape said:


> On foraging, I see urban pigeons eating seeds in a field of weeds wevery day. Not worried about them finding food among the abundant crops we will be planting for them.


Quazar already answered this. What makes you think they will just do that, all by themselves ??? An urban field of weeds is already their context. Some 'crops' planted in an agrarian context is not their context.



ductape said:


> We want a passive system that requires little input from humans.


That way there's very little investment of time or money or labor to be made. Sounds easy...small investment...huge reward.

BTW.....how will you 'catch' the birds you are gonna kill ? How passive a system is that ?



ductape said:


> Its not just about breast size here..... and I am sure this will be the first "free range" pigeon farm in California.


Why didn't you just come out and say, right to begin with..._that your intent was to capture Ferals and convert 'em and their babies and their babies' babies....to food birds.

And cloak the entire scheme as free-range....._

I do wonder what the CA Health Dept. (for one, among the many other regulatory agencies with oversight in these situations) would say about your 'system', also....


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> why ferals? because they do not cost anything?.


Fits right in with the 'experiment'...minimal investment....



spirit wings said:


> If you want pigeons to fly around you're house there are breeds of domestic pigeons that would suit you for this without having to rob the city of their ferals..*esp if they have a life there and mate and perhaps eggs/young in the nest. *


He just wants to create a food pigeon farm....has no interest in sanctuary or bird companionship....


----------



## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

almondman said:


> Maybe, if this is his real intent, this should be kicked up to the administrators or mooderators(?) to decide the outcome and whether ductape"s threads should be removed.


Actually, its worth not removing as it discusses several points about birds survival in general and may be of use to others 



Jaye said:


> I do wonder what the CA Health Dept. (for one, among the many other regulatory agencies with oversight in these situations) would say about your 'system', also....


I know here in the UK theres no way this would be viable or allowed (legally).
Any food sold by a retailler or supplier has to go through very stringent health checks & breeding checks before any licence to produce would be allowed.
These birds being "feral" could pick up any of their normal diseases & pass them on to their young, which would then in turn pass into the human food chain.
So there is no way they would be passed fit for human consumption.
Just recently here in the UK, Bernard Matthews (well known Chicken & Turkey producer) was fined for the conditions of some of his breeding facilities.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Very good points. Thanks!


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You just want to start a food farm in the cheapest way that you can. Your scheme wouldn't work, and for all the reasons that Jaye has already given you. The birds wouldn't just adapt to a completely new way of life and be able to survive. You would lose most of them. But then I guess that really doesn't matter to you, as you would just build up your numbers from the few that might survive. Your interest isn't in the birds or a sanctuary at all. You actually came on here trying to sound as though you were doing something for the birds. Saving them. All you want to do is kill them and make money off of them. This is a pigeon friendly site, so I would say that you are in the wrong place. 
I have a loft of rescues that were starving on the streets. Why? Because they had been raised in places where they were fed daily. When they get out of that environment, or get lost, they have absolutely no idea of where or how to find food. There are feral flocks all around them who are surviving, but these loft birds had no idea of how to survive. You take a pigeon out of its environment where it has learned how to survive and how to deal with the life that it knows, and it hasn't got a clue. How it was living is what it knows. Instinct will not just kick in. They don't know how to forage in a new environment and in a new way. THAT IS WHY PIGEONS HOME TO BEGIN WITH. Because that is the only way they know of surviving. They know the area, where to find food and how. They know they are safe there. They know they are not safe and cannot survive in the unknown. THAT IS WHY THEY HOME. They know what they have learned. They are programmed to do what they have always done. They do not know how to survive another way. Look at the kinds of places that you will see feral flocks of pigeons. It is in or near the cities. Where they know how to live and survive. Not the kind of environment you are describing. Do you not see that there is a reason for that?


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes...I think this has been reiterated multiple times already, and Jay3 puts it all in summary.

And Quazar, you are also correct.

I mean..there IS a reason why free-range and organic meats are more expensive (and sought-after as well)....there is a helluva lot of oversight and training which needs to go into those processes...they are very highly regulated.


----------



## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

if a bird isnt sick dont take it out of town.. liek everybody esle said .. they are used to it.. by taking a bird out of town.. u might as well kill their babies.. cause you dont know if somewhere under thhe ledge are laying two little babies and waiting on their mom

i had a siumlar case happend to me few months ago.. guy came with a box to catch healthy pretty ferals and take them to his "loft" i ended up calling the cops.. unfortunatelly he got away..
i should have just walked by him and grabbed the box and released the birds


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

goga82 said:


> all my ferals come home.. i only deal with ferals.. and i never had a bird that left.. and that didnt come back..never


goga, they're talking about a whole different situation here.


----------



## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> goga, they're talking about a whole different situation here.


yeah i just read the whole thing and really made my eyes fall out.. seriously who is this guy??? 
i think he might be on the wrong site..
dont you think..its not even worth talking to him.. seems like he made up his mind.. 
obviously a guy has nothing better to do with his life,, than to catch pigeons around the city


----------



## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

he should be banned from the pigeon talk..


----------



## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

becides nobody eats pigeons no more.. why dont u go and get your self a chicken farm..
all meat has to be usda approved... u think just out of the blue u'll be allowed to sell feral pigens for food.. u out of ur mind,, seems to me you are little slow (dumb) hahah 
i can only laugh at this crazy lunatic


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I thought you might find his other post interesting.


----------



## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

i did.. i made sure i told people what this freak is all about.. grrrr i wish who he was and how to find him.. id make sure he remembers me..i go to extreme to protect these birds


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

goga82 said:


> i did.. i made sure i told people what this freak is all about.. grrrr i wish who he was and how to find him.. id make sure he remembers me..i go to extreme to protect these birds


I live in San Francisco and I wold love to meet with you anytime. I am sure that in person I could talk some sense into you, I hope, but if you think you wanna be violent or something than your just kidding yourself I think. I am easy to find and talk to, being a fairly public figure in SF.

If you live anywhere near SF, come to the next Permaculture Guild meeting and chat if your up for it: http://www.permaculture-sf.org/the-guild/guild-meetings.html

You said you read the posts but its obvious you didnt by what you are saying. Everything I said in these threads is true and not some sort of coverup to get information from you all on how to "make millions eating pigeon babies."

There are several pigeon farms in California that started with feral birds, there is no law against this. I am still surprised that on this forum, of all places, some people keep implying that urban pigeons are somehow unclean and filthy. Its that same old stereotyping that I see when I talk about pigeons to the lay-person. Never thought a pigeon fancier would be repeating that nonsense. 

*Not that I am starting a pigeon farm anyway, never said I was. Maybe someone can show me the quote of me saying that?*

We could drop all the rabid finger pointing and stop accusing me of some nefarious plot and get back to valuable conversation. I do get some conflicting statements on whether or not pigeons will re-home after being moved. So say yes they will, some say no they wont. Not one person has actually pointed out any evidence of either. I am surprised thats not an interesting and valuable topic for pigeon folk. Wouldn't it be valuable to have actual data and evidence of whether this works or not?


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ductape said:


> I live in San Francisco and I wold love to meet with you anytime. I am sure that in person I could talk some sense into you, I hope, *but if you think you wanna be violent or something* than your just kidding yourself I think. I am easy to find and talk to, being a fairly public figure in SF.


...I suppose it'd be rhetorical to even point out the inconsistencies in your posts up to now....

All anyone needs do is just re-read 'em themselves.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

ductape said:


> *Not that I am starting a pigeon farm anyway, never said I was. Maybe someone can show me the quote of me saying that?*


....I mean, quite seriously......I for one, am VERY glad you are not.

And I am very pleased that you will not, then, be embarking on trapping Ferals, relocating them to a completely foreign environment, neglecting them by providing inadequate/inappropriate/unfamiliar food & water, and inadequate supervision...and then foolishly expect that they will somehow prosper and multiply so you can kill the Feral babies and sell them for food.

Whew.

I, for one, dunno *where* anyone would have ever gotten such an idea that this was *ever* your intent.....

(pssst...the "quote" feature on this Forum is oh, so handy a tool)

So thanks for your reply. 

It is good to know that sometimes, when people come to ask the advice of people with far, far, far more experience than themselves....*they actually take that advice*...as opposed to just ignoring it, arguing it, or dismissing it as not based upon scientific findings....and proceeding on their merry way towards an inhumane disaster.

You have restored my faith, and I am just relieved that you will not be embarking on any cruel or illegal or half-baked, unrealistic schemes involving Feral Pigeons.


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

It was your forum member who threatened me: 



goga82 said:


> i did.. i made sure i told people what this freak is all about.. grrrr i wish who he was and how to find him.. id make sure he remembers me..i go to extreme to protect these birds


Do you even read this stuff?


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

The larger question would be whether YOU read your OWN stuff.....



ductape said:


> Well, Jaye, again thanks for the deep thoughtful answer......
> 
> And if we are starting a pigeon farm out of this....
> 
> ...





ductape said:


> *Not that I am starting a pigeon farm anyway, never said I was. Maybe someone can show me the quote of me saying that?*


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Jaye said:


> ....I mean, quite seriously......I for one, am VERY glad you are not.
> 
> And I am very pleased that you will not, then, be embarking on trapping Ferals, relocating them to a completely foreign environment, neglecting them by providing inadequate/inappropriate/unfamiliar food & water, and inadequate supervision...and then foolishly expect that they will somehow prosper and multiply so you can kill the Feral babies and sell them for food.
> 
> ...


then show me the quote. Use the quote button and show us all where I say im starting a farm, which you continually accuse me of.

again i say you are taking it all way out of context to suit your own argument. You also state I ignored advice and argued it away, when all i ever got from you was anecdotal and no facts whatsoever. Just a flat out statement that it wont work, which I was inclined to believe before I found contradicting information from a source I trust more who backed it up with facts. I dont think your as smart as you think you are.

You keep saying what i plan is illegal. Pray tell, what laws do you refer to? 

As an example of your rash and hot-headed commentary, you post above also accuses me of trapping ferals. Shall I put on a black cape, an evil looking moustache and rub my hands together whilst I cackle a nefarious laugh for you also? 

I never said I would trap ferals. At this point your pretty much making stuff up. Go ahead and use the quote button and show us where I said that.

Seriously man, you sound paranoid and just plan silly. What kind of world do you live in where you think people are actually doing this kinda stuff? 

Pigeons are killed in mass in places like Phoenix Arizona every day. They are poisoned, shot, electrified, all kinds of bad stuff. I guess you think thats better than a chance to live in the wild?

Not sure how you cooked me up to be pretty much the most wicked and evil person we have seen in modern times. I spend my days here in SF teaching people how to grow their own food and build community while doing it. I teach kids about composting and worms and soil and hoe to promote life in all of its beautiful forms. I started the second largest farm project here in SF, each day we have 30-40 school kids coming through there to learn about nature. I am the current president of the SF Permaculture Guild, where I have spent the last 4 years helping people learn how to meet their needs as locally as possible and build strong resilient communities. 

This is my life, its what I do, every day. I dont have some other job I go to. I literally psend each day here in San Francisco trying my best to develop and teach a healthy, resilient city. Why dontcha come on ot and see my work, I see you live here. Lots f people know me, I am easy to find. And I mean it when I say I would like to talk to you. Speakign in person usually always straightens out this messy stuff, in my experience.

Somehow, the picture your painting of me just doesnt ring true, at least from my perspective.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Speaking for myself...I rather grow tired of people who deliberately misrepresent themselves and their intentions in order to get information from people.

I also have limited patience for people who ask the advice, on a particular subject, of more experienced people...then either ignore, dismiss, reject, or claim as unsubstantiated _that very advice they just asked for._ In other words, folks who ask questions while only wanting the answers which agree with their preconceptions.

Add to this...people who shake a hornet's nest and then start complaining that they are being unfairly attacked and misrepresented, and start acting like the poor victim when, "golly gee, all I was doin' was askin' an honest question !"

Then...topping it off with...people who pull out....the chestnut of 'em all.....
*
"I never said that."*


----------



## ductape (Jan 24, 2011)

Well Jaye, man up and use that quote button. Show me where i said I would trap pigeons and show me where I said I would be starting a farm? 

If you dont do it, I will go ahead and show the ONE STATEMENT I MADE about pigeons as food that got you all riled up. Before I do, I will give you the chance to do it yourself, since your the one making the accusations. Only fair, right?

Sure you can sit back on your principles, but if you want to follow through with what you started, go ahead and back up all your accusations.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

While I *do*, rather....._enjoy and respect_ the company of humans who wish to help living creatures...

....those who realize and revel in the true and special connections...

...and those who, when confronted with a situation with the potential of inflicting unnecessary pain, confusion, and suffering on innocent, helpless creatures who do them no harm....

...will do all they can within their powers to instruct, educate, and if necessary dissuade or prevent such treatment from happening.

Those sorta folks are _*my*_ homies.


----------



## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Jaye said:


> While I *do*, rather....._enjoy and respect_ the company of humans who wish to help living creatures...those who realize true connections...
> 
> ...and those who, when confronted with a situation with the potential of inflicting unnecessary pain, confusion, and suffering on helpless creatures....
> 
> ...will do all they can within their powers to instruct, educate, and if necessary dissuade or prevent such treatment from happening.


Jaye until you lay down all meat from your diet you have ZERO room to speak. How you don't see that blows my mind. You are being very hypercritical here.
You somehow think that the animals you eat at the store are cared for?
Come on now...


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

AZ...I am a vegetarian.

But once again, my friend..your point is a complete digression. Whether an honest misunderstanding...or an intentional swipe, I dunno.

The subject here is not carnivorism vs. vegetarianism...the subject is the _deliberate misrepresentation of an ill-conceived, inhumane scheme_ which would ultimately cause harm to many an innocent animal.

(Pigeon Sanctuary... and... Self-Sustaining Meat Farm.... are not synonyms.....)

You attempted to detour his other thread in the same way...changing the subject at hand....trying to veer the topic elsewhere.

Your position and commentary implies that one cannot be humane and intelligent toward animals ...supportive of proper care ~ and critical of neglectful care....critical of poorly-conceived/cruel treatment of animals....

....if one eats meat.

Your implication being that if one partakes in meat, they have forfeited any right to criticize cruel farming practices...or any farming practices....or any actions which would result in cruelty to living animals in general. Your implication being that one who eats meat...must then...shut up on the subject(s).

I need not comment on that. Suffice it to say most here would not agree with such an extreme presumption. 

(I also didn't note that particular exclusion in the Forum Rules).

But...as noted above....in my particular instance, it's all moot, anyway. Even by YOUR quite misguided definition, then, I very much DO have the right and standing to 'say' these things....if I interpret you correctly.

So...it _*could*_ be that this site is full of hypocrites. 

It *could* be that this site is full of vegetarians. 

But my guess is...this site is full of folks who care and know a hella lot about Pigeons...and care a lot about animals, in general....regardless of whats for dinner.

Onward....I would certainly hope (and expect) that you will not next dismiss all of my comments as the rants of an extremist veggie....

That'd be quite the twist....


----------



## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Jaye said:


> AZ...I am a vegetarian.
> 
> But once again, my friend..your point is a complete digression. Whether an honest misunderstanding...or an intentional swipe, I dunno.
> 
> ...



Jaye you maybe misread or just misunderstood me.
You however are right in regards to me assuming you were a meat eater. However it does not change what I've said.
I never said anything about humanity to animals.
Perhaps you are assuming (as much of the world does) that I am a vegan because I find it cruel to kill animals? Well that is not the case. I hate using the term vegan because most vegan are vegans because of that very reason.
I love meat taste great.
I quit eating meat because it is not healthy for you, point blank.

You want to talk about digression of the thread?
Perhaps you should read the title and see how that may apply to you.
Yes my post is off topic so perhaps I should just not say anything at all because of that. But if you look through things the only reason my post are this way is because of where YOU took the thread.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have read this thread a few times and refrained from commenting but Jaye, Give it up, Your opinion is very clear, leave it at that.

I never got the impression ductape was starting a farm, I don't see anything wrong with using a surplus for food for yourself, I think its reffered to as " self sufficient ", aslong as the birds have a good life then its down to opinion if you do it but its by no means cruel.

I have myself considered having some ferals in a barn when I get a larger property and letting them feed wild to a point.

Ductape - I have put great thought into it and I would think you will need to supplement the birds at first- teach them to forage by scattering wheat around the place, take it further from the loft each day. Hopefully they may start travelling and landing further afield then you will be set.

Just Ignore people with Negative attitudes and hopefully you can pull some ideas from the relevant posts.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ductape said:


> will feral pigeons ever get to a point where they can be let out and they will home to their loft?
> 
> Do we need to wait for a generation to be born there?


There is a good chance they will flyaway back to where they lived before.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have myself considered having some ferals in a barn when I get a larger property and letting them feed wild to a point.
> 
> 
> *Just Ignore people with Negative attitudes and hopefully you can pull some ideas from the relevant posts.*


The first interesting thing about your comment, NZ, is that ~ in your other thread ~ you said that you were done with Ferals. You said that you were gonna concentrate on the genetic experiments of your current residents. Now you say you also have an intention of working with Ferals again....(?)

This is the second time on this subject (no, third) I have been told by another member to shut up and go away....interesting, as it hasn't happened here very often in the years I have been a member. 

Let me say, NZ (and AZ, too)...my problem with "shutting up"...is that with each successive retort Ductape makes on his two threads here....his position, reasoning and intentions become less and less defensible...and he becomes more and more obstinate in accepting the valid feedback and advice he has been given.

But, those are just observations, and this is a digression...as for your comment on *this* subject, here, I have some thoughts (since you have accused me of soapboxing, anyone who wants a quick version can just stick to the boldface print):

*1) Regarding you having a wild-feeding barn...you are a Pigeon Person. Ostensibly, you understand their nature. Or to be more specific, I suppose you have more Pigeon understanding than Ductape.*

You...I would imagine....will not be going out and trapping Ferals and relocating them to a barn....with improper resources and minimal and/or inexperienced oversight. You, I would imagine...understand that this, by the nature of the Pigeons, will not work out well for the Pigeons.

*2)* You also state that the intent is just self-sufficient farming. However, if (once again) you reread Ductape's posts (and mind you ~ this is a difficult endeavor due to the verbosity and inherent contradictions from one entry to another) and you will see that *the intent is to create a free-range squab farm* ~ minor scale and minimal for self-sufficiency appears to be a particular interpretation you have made. There is no allusion to it in his comments. And as Quazar noted how prolific Pigeons are at breeding...and as Ductape noted no desire to do egg control.....the concept of minor and self sufficient scale is very questionable. 
(This is also beside the point because the method he proposes to 'establish' the farm are ill-founded and will cause living Pigeons harm and great distress...).

*3) You suggest Ductape ignore people who disagree or are critical of his 'experiment'. That's an interesting bit of advice. 

A novice comes to a specialized Forum and asks for feedback. You then suggest he ignore the feedback which he disagrees with....*

*Ductape...clearly from his posts here...knows not the most rudimentary facts about Pigeon behavior. And when, in fact, he is informed by experienced members...he either argues that they have no scientific proof of this, or he invents anthropomorphic qualities of the species based upon casual observation which then, in his mind...trumps the knowledge of very experienced Pigeon people.*

*~ He receives replies yet ridicules criticism* as to the concept of allowing his captured Feral Adults to breed babies which will be eaten...and he proceeds to misrepresent those criticisms, twist them into absurdities. Example: _I never said his intention was to start a farm to make "millions" off of baby meat._ He knows this. Yet he ridicules my criticism as such.

*~ He introduces straw man arguments* Twice the mention of... a city in *Arizona* to lend support to the humane-ness of his intent, *although he neither lives there nor would be capturing Pigeons there.* He uses that straw man as the basis for claiming he is 'saving' Pigeons. Except....he states he lives in SF. There is no mass killing and trapping of Pigeons in the city he intends on using for his 'subjects'. There are no masses of healthy Ferals which require 'saving'. 

*~ Laws and Codes:* I point out the illegality of trapping Pigeons where he lives...a small fact which again contradicts his own desires/beliefs....he casts aspersions upon that comment, and demands to have the info handed to him on a plate.
(California State Penal Codes and San Francisco Municipal Codes both have a few sections which address the illegality of that activity. Those two just scratch the surface. Regarding asking ME for those precise codes...I figure if he is so into research, he can spend a bit of time finding them himself.)
*
I mention that animal farming would fall under Health dept. and possibly Ag Dept. rules...both state and Federal...and that to create a 'free-range' farm there would be codes he would need to adhere to. 

Again, being news which is not welcome to him*... he replies that he knows other people who have done it and again, asks that I lead him by the nose to those resources. Yet if he claims he has been 'researching' this subject, surely he has spoken to bona-fide, legal, certified farms...or in the least...has in the very least...contacted whatever local municipal or county authorities would have jurisdiction over such land use (last name of some guy on his link is Cody...this reminds me of a Fire Inspector I know in SF named Cody...which reminds me that one, before launching a scheme, should check out all relevant codes themselves; these codes existing at a plethora of levels and likely crossing over with one another).

So, NZ....I think if you look over this thread again, you will see not PT members badmouthing another member, but rather you will see a lot of good feedback from experienced folks ...folks who above all care about our Pigeon friends....feedback which indicates this thing is quite wrong on many different grounds....


----------



## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

umm pigeon dinner = Sick-o


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

not to mention he does not know anything about meat, a feral bird has little meat and is tuff, that is why they domesticated some pigeons just for food and they eat them young..so old birds are not even worth it, so that leaves the young squabs, same thing not much to go around.. this is a hairbrained scheme. you may want to join a chicken forum.


----------



## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have read this thread a few times and refrained from commenting but Jaye, Give it up, Your opinion is very clear, leave it at that.
> 
> I never got the impression ductape was starting a farm, I don't see anything wrong with using a surplus for food for yourself, I think its reffered to as " self sufficient ", aslong as the birds have a good life then its down to opinion if you do it but its by no means cruel.
> 
> ...


Hm, have a look at the example table in my other post in the other thread. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=647585&postcount=10
At which point would you consider the "self sufficient" stage to start & end ?
With the number of birds mentioned "self sufficiency" soon becomes "mass production" unless egg removal & replacement IS used (bear in mind also that removal of eggs only without replacement will not help the birds health)

Sadly, just ignoring something that doesnt fit into what one wants to hear will not help the poster or the birds.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I may have missed this, but if this IS on the up and up, would the idea of conservation and restoration of natural fauna into areas be better suited by trapping birds from rural areas/farms, where the birds have already learned to live off the land. The same question about the birds rehoming to new areas would come into play, but i would think survival rates would be much higher for those birds that didn't stick around than for city dwelling birds. I do not advocate the general premise behind all of this, but if he is going to go ahead anyways, this might be an alternative to endangering the city dwellers.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> The first interesting thing about your comment, NZ, is that ~ in your other thread ~ you said that you were done with Ferals. You said that you were gonna concentrate on the genetic experiments of your current residents. Now you say you also have an intention of working with Ferals again....(?)
> 
> This is the second time on this subject (no, third) I have been told by another member to shut up and go away....interesting, as it hasn't happened here very often in the years I have been a member.
> 
> ...


I skimmed read what you said as I do not have time to read long posts about nothing, One this is I never said I was done with ferals, I said I have no intention of adopting anymore ferals UNLESS i stumble across one in need, That is in my current living situation, However when I get a farm if I have a barn and I can get some pigeons to home in their naturally I will support them and maybe let them multiply so I have my own flock that lives mainly wild, So you are right I will not be going as far as to trap and rehome them.

My suggestion to ignore the negative people was also accompanied by me saying that way they may be able to pull some good info from the thread - so I was not telling them to ignore everything but to try and take what they can - Including everyones concerns, What I do not like is when it turns into a you said he said situation.

I agree with some of your concerns but why not just leave it where it is, Like I said your opinion has been made very clear.



Quazar said:


> Hm, have a look at the example table in my other post in the other thread. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=647585&postcount=10
> At which point would you consider the "self sufficient" stage to start & end ?
> With the number of birds mentioned "self sufficiency" soon becomes "mass production" unless egg removal & replacement IS used (bear in mind also that removal of eggs only without replacement will not help the birds health)
> 
> Sadly, just ignoring something that doesnt fit into what one wants to hear will not help the poster or the birds.


I was not suggesting they ignore everything, Just the back and forth towards the end, But I agree, best not to ignore any opinion or advice but unfortunately when someone is all up in your face forcing their opinion in big long posts then it becomes a little bit hard to listen.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

almondman said:


> I may have missed this, but if this IS on the up and up, would the idea of conservation and restoration of natural fauna into areas be better suited by trapping birds from rural areas/farms, where the birds have already learned to live off the land. The same question about the birds rehoming to new areas would come into play, but i would think survival rates would be much higher for those birds that didn't stick around than for city dwelling birds. I do not advocate the general premise behind all of this, but if he is going to go ahead anyways, this might be an alternative to endangering the city dwellers.


Now that's an interesting point.....

You see...THAT is the sort of comment which at least pays respect to the realities and feasibilities of the situation.

It, in the least, addresses the very real likelihood of the failure (rather nasty at that) of transplanting trapped city birds...without simply dismissing or choosing to ignore that likelihood simply because it contradicts one's desires.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

almondman said:


> I may have missed this, but if this IS on the up and up, would the idea of conservation and restoration of natural fauna into areas be better suited by trapping birds from rural areas/farms, where the birds have already learned to live off the land. The same question about the birds rehoming to new areas would come into play, but i would think survival rates would be much higher for those birds that didn't stick around than for city dwelling birds. I do not advocate the general premise behind all of this, but if he is going to go ahead anyways, this might be an alternative to endangering the city dwellers.


I think if one grows forage that birds like they will come.. Im talking about wild birds, they move to where the food is, so with the culling and and eating of pigeons part out of the picture, that is what I would do if I had allot of land that was poor herbage and wanted to attract birds, but it would not be cheap to ready the soil and buy the seed if it was a large property.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I skimmed read what you said as I do not have time to read long posts about nothing,




....yet you apparently have no qualms about writing non-sequitir, long posts yourself...

You are not setting much of an example here. Given that you outright admit that *you are replying to a post of mine which you haven't read thru*....what in the world makes you think that anyone would consider the content of your reply to be germaine ?

How can one criticize one's thoughts and responses without even having taken the minimal courtesy to have read them and understand them ?

It really leads me to believe that you have a bone to pick with me personally...and perhaps this thread, albeit convenient for you to do so...isn't the best venue for that.

(as there is a topic going on here). 

It makes it a bit hard to claim the high road in your instance, but I appreciate at least the courtesy of you having noted, right at the start...that your reply wasn't based upon having read mine....


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I think if one grows forage that birds like they will come.. Im talking about wild birds, they move to where the food is, so with the culling and and eating of pigeons part out of the picture, that is what I would do if I had allot of land that was poor herbage and wanted to attract birds, but it would not be cheap to ready the soil and buy the seed if it was a large property.


That is a good point, yet again (from someone apparently following the discussion and wishing to contribute to it).

You set up seeding plants with the intent of them serving your intentionally relocated Flock....and of course (given you are not administering the site full time) you have to take into account that other animals in the environs will also be using that food source...likely more successfully so given their familiarity with the context to begin with.


----------



## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jaye said:


> It really leads me to believe that you have a bone to pick with me personally...and perhaps this thread, albeit convenient for you to do so...isn't the best venue for that.


Some folk just like an argument 





spirit wings said:


> I think if one grows forage that birds like they will come.. Im talking about wild birds, they move to where the food is, so with the culling and and eating of pigeons part out of the picture, that is what I would do if I had allot of land that was poor herbage and wanted to attract birds, but it would not be cheap to ready the soil and buy the seed if it was a large property.


And you would also be responsible and replace eggs to prevent any overbreeding to make sure there was enough food for all.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

just some reading for this subject, seems one can use the animals in many ways and not just for eating. 

"However not all permaculture sites keep animals for meat, eggs or milk. Sometimes animals function as pets or are treated as co-habitats and co-workers of the site, eating foods normally unpalatable to people such as slugs and termites, being an integral part of the pest management by eating some pests, supplying fertilizer through their droppings and controlling some weed species.

Other projects avoid the use of domesticated animals altogether.[19] Vegan permaculture (also known as veganic permaculture, veganiculture or vegaculture) is essentially the same as permaculture except for the addition of "Animal Care" as a fourth core value alongside "Earth Care, People Care and Fair Share."[20] Zalan Glen, a raw vegan, proposes that vegaculture should emerge out of permaculture in the same way veganism split from vegetarianism in the 1940s"
__________________


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> ....yet you apparently have no qualms about writing non-sequitir, long posts yourself...
> 
> You are not setting much of an example here. Given that you outright admit that *you are replying to a post of mine which you haven't read thru*....what in the world makes you think that anyone would consider the content of your reply to be germaine ?
> 
> ...



Just because I skim read did not mean I didn't take in the point or understand what you were saying. 

I have no bone to pick but you seem to take peoples post out of context.

There was a topic going on, It was "how hard would it be to home the pigeons in in the first place", Some poeple tried to suggest some useful ideas for what the OP'er wanted but I think people were put off by the long winded, Opinionated posts, Anyway I do not want to go back and forth so this is the last I have to say.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Some folk just like an argument



I agree, I have seen you jump in on a few.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Just because I skim read did not mean I didn't take in the point or understand what you were saying.


Look mate...one either reads a reply to them in their entirety and then composes a response based on an adequate understanding...or they outright admit that they haven't bothered because what the other person wrote is already bound to be "stupid" and a waste of their precious time....

If one chooses to do the latter, then one has forfeited their standing to have their own response taken seriously.

It's one of those "can't have it both ways" sorta thangs....



NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree, I have seen you jump in on a few.


To the contrary...this subject is illustrative of just the opposite.

Quazar is one of the most measured members of the forum. Respectful, and capable of backing assertions up with experience and fact.

I believe some people mistake "disagreement" for "argument". Therefore, should someone (or in this instance a group of folks) attempt to point out the multitude of shortcomings and pitfalls of a particular idea...it has the potential to quickly degrade and digress.

That does not diminish the significance of the feedback, however.....



Quazar said:


> Some folk just like an argument
> .


Indeed...I think it's quite something; as I noted in the other thread, it's an occasional yet consistent dynamic of Chat Boards...almost seems like the subject is of secondary importance.

In the new millenium...just "pick a team" and stick with it, I guess. 

Doesn't seem to occur to folks that what they might be defending will end up causing harm to things they profess to care about.....


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> just some reading for this subject, seems one can use the animals in many ways and not just for eating.
> 
> "However not all permaculture sites keep animals for meat, eggs or milk. Sometimes animals function as pets or are treated as co-habitats and co-workers of the site, eating foods normally unpalatable to people such as slugs and termites, being an integral part of the pest management by eating some pests, supplying fertilizer through their droppings and controlling some weed species.
> 
> ...


At the moment.....SW takes the prize for actually making efforts in pursuing a useful dialogue....


----------

