# Our Pigeon is sick with fluffed out feathers & runny clear droppings



## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Can anyone help?

She is 9 years old and a rescued racing pigeon. 
Last night and this morning she really hasn't been herself, shes quiet and just sat on her perch with fluffed out feathers, looking sleepy and her poo is clear and runny like raw egg white, (for the want of a better description.)

Any ideas? or suggestions for what we can do?
Many thanks,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, first off, where basically are you in case we've got someone in your area who might could get you some medication?

It's often an oviduct problem when they get those kind of droppings. I'll fetch a link to a thread about that kind of thing.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This gets kinda' technical but you should read it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

If you pick the bird up, does it feel like there is a "fullness" or "solidity" to the back end of the bird? Hopefully, you've got another pigeon to compare with. Anyhow, Baytril and Metronidazole in combination might help get the bird back from the brink. Do you have access to anything like that?

Another question: could you please count how many times the bird takes a breath in one minute by watching the tail bobbing or the chest heaving? Sometimes there isn't much movement but give it a try.

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thanks! Im just about to read the link.

She's the only pigeon that we have so can't compare her to anything else, we found her at the side of the road several years ago with a broken wing and missing eye. We didn't expect that she'd survive, but she did and has lived with us ever since.

She's not had any eggs for about 18 months, which we assumed was normal for older birds?


Shes eating loads of grit though, she feels warm and hydrated, her body feels normal, not like shes eggbound or anything.

I've tried to check her breathing but shes too busy eating grit at the minute so its hard to tell, i'll try again in a moment or two.

eta: we're in the uk, with no access to either of the drugs you mentioned,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, it's normal for them to stop laying eggs somewhere about that time. It's always possible for them to get an infection or other problem of the oviduct. It's always difficult from a description of poop to know anything for a fact, so it's kind of a "best guess" thing and I've mostly seen oviduct problems with the "egg whites" type of discharge.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You see, they can also have a watery mucus discharge from Coccidiosis, too, but that's typically a secondary or opportunistic kind of thing. And sometimes these things kinda' get worse with time. Is she not currently eating any actual food at all?

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

She hasn't eaten very much, but she has been drinking rather a lot. Shes currently just eating loads of grit 


thanks so much for your help and advice, we're so worried about her 


eta: she has no contact with any other birds and lives in the house on her own with us, if this helps any with regard to her catching anything?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Antibiotics? Vet availability and feasibility? Basic location (country, state, nearest city)?

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thanks Pidgey, were in the UK, yorkshire, we can get her to a vet if needs be, its just the vet knows very little about pigeons to the point where he'll probably suggest she be put to sleep 

She's not fluffed up at the minute, shes still picking at the grit, which she's been doing for ages! Could it be a grit issue?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Certainly it could signal some kind of malnutrition issue. Since you're in the UK, you might want to talk with a UK member who knows all the ins and outs of getting medications in your country, which can be a royal pain for some items, as well as how to deal with your vets. I'll give Cynthia and John a message about this thread for starters.

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

thanks pidgey!
i'll keep you updated. She's eating grit at an alarming rate though!


eta: She's eating food at last!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Dee Dee,

What part of Yorkshire are you in? There might be a sanctuary near you that has experience of pigeons and will have a look at her. My own local sanctuary will do this.

I would withdraw the grit for a while, too much can be bad for them. She may be eating the grit for the calcium it provides. Can you get some calcium syrup or similar from a chemist tomorrow? I can send you some, but it won't arrive until Tuesday at the latest.

I have some Baytril and might have some Appertex (for coccidiosis) but no metronidazole . I can send you some Poly Aid which is "to stop sick birds from starving). 

One of m hens got sick recently, I can't remember what her poops were like but she was fluffed up an "lobster tailed". I couldn't feel any egg in her cloaca, but within a couple od days she layed two and she has been OL since then.

Without an X-ray it will not be possible to discount a tumour, but I wouldn't let a vet that was not very experienced with birds X-ray one of mine because it involves anaesthesising first.

Please PM me if you want me to send you anything.

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thanks so much Cyro, thats very kind of you. 

We're near Scotch Corner, what should we ask the chemist for? (calcium)
are Baytril and Appertex antibiotics? 

Hootie was a bit lobster tailed earlier, what would that indicate?

Thanks so much again,
x


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

They are both antibiotics. Appertex is a single dose coccidicidal drug (it kills coccidia) that can be bought over the counter at corn stores and pigeon suppliers. Baytril is a bactericidal drug (it kills bacteria) which is available by veterinary prescription.

Pigeons can be "lobster tailed" when balancing on a perch, but when the maintain the position on a flat surface I attribute it to pain...but I could be wrong.

The two sanctuaries that I was thinking of are too far away from you for you to pop round...about 80 miles.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi deedee, 


Might be a good idea to remove access to the Grit.

What has her diet been these however many years you have had her?


Phil
l v


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Her diet has been regular pigeon food from pet stores.
her breathing is 29 breaths per minute.

She seems exhausted though and very tired.



eta: just giving her a cuddle and theres no bump in her neck where her crop used to be...


eta: her breathing is 40 breaths per minute, shes out of her cage sat on the floor in the lounge.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The 30 would be more-or-less normal and 40 isn't much of a rise. Keep an eye on that to make sure that it's not continually rising.

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Update:

She seems a tiny bit better today, but she seems to be craving grit, the large white pieces of grit to be exact and the white bits of her food which she then spits out...
Could this be a calcium thing? is there anything I can give her until I get something proper tomorrow?

(i left her with the grit btw because her crop felt really flat and I was worried about her food stagnating in her stomach?)


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about your bird. While you are waiting to take the bird to vet...

Here is what I would do:

I would put the bird on heat, if you haven't done so.
If she has wet droppings put a towel between heating pad as well as a clean plastic garbage bag or Chux pads-between bird and pad.

Make sure to feed the bird if she isn't eating on her own.

She may not be properly processing the calcium, so it is best to try another form.

For wet droppings, like from coccidiosis:

I would give the bird a drop of colloidal silver down the throat for infection
& give a capsule of probiotics or add a bit of kefir down the throat with a syringe. A garlic capsule which is basic for any healing program to build immune system.

This works very well. 

Then for egg issues:

1.Try a drop or two of olive oil down the throat, as well as colloidal silver. 

2. A small cap of chlorella for beneficial minerals, or alfalfa (1/4 of a tab) down the throat for calcium. I will slick down the cap with a drop of Neem oil, another great immune booster.

3. A cap of Cod liver oil from pristine source, will give vitamin D and help with calcium absorption.

4. Brewers yeast for beneficial B vitamins, also good for muscles and nerves. This wone is best to give with kefir or probiotics, as it will discourage any yeast.

These help with strengthening the muscles to help her push out any egg debree that might be inside, the Olive/Neem oil helps to transport it out and the colloidal silver helps with infections of any kind.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Thanks for the advice, unfortunately we don't have any of that stuff apart from the olive oil  she's never been sick before and we wouldn't know where to start regarding a pigeon 1st aid kit.
Having never kept birds as pets or anything we're totally clueless. Hootie was a bird we found dying at the side of the road, so took her home so she could go in peace, but she pulled through and has not been ill or given us any cause for concern since.

But now that there is a problem we're stuffed! Ive given her a quarter of a crushed calcium tablet and shes wandering about the kitchen at the minute so Ive not given her a heat pad yet.

She seems to be a little sensitive to light too...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

She needs to be in an area with subdued light and confined to a comfy cage, where there are no drafts of air. 

You can use a whole plain yogurt-with cultures in it, it will do in a pinch, it will help multiply the beneficial bacteria and get the gut back in order, it just doesn't work as efficiently as probiotics or kefir. I would also use a drop of organic apple cider vinegar that will also help with PH and help enable the environment to be more acidic for goos gut bacteria growth.

The calcium may help, as any supportive measure will be beneficial. The colloidal silver can be purchased at a health food store, and even on line. I highly recommend it for any egg issue as well as coccidisosis as it really helps with any infection.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Why do you think she's sensitive to light? Is she going into dark corners to stand, or something?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi DeeDee,

Please PM me your address. I can send you colloidal silver and calcium as well!

I know that it is risky to send out personal details on the Internet, but I have been a member of this forum for 5 years now and I know others, including many ofthe moderators, will vouch for me and confirm that a pigeon's welfare and survival is my only concern.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll vouch for Cynthia--she's good people. You're safe with her.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> I'll vouch for Cynthia--she's good people. You're safe with her.
> 
> Pidgey


Ditto.
Cynthia has helped me so many times. She is an angel.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

And, I like her so much I would trust my most treasured pigeon to her any day, any year. She is just top notch!


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Greetings, Dee-Dee.

So sorry to here about your Hootie not feeling well.
My prayers are with you guys!

If you have difficulty counting the breaths for a full minute...you may count for 6 seconds and multiply by 10 in a pinch to keep a close watch.

The members here, including Cynthia, are top notch and most caring for the well-being of their's as well as all of our feathered friends!

I'm sorry that I'm not knowledgeable about your Hootie's condition, but many of the folks here whom are advising you are.

I'll look forward to the good news of Hootie's full and quick recovery!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Pidgie, Reti and Maggie. LOL, I just wanted you to confirm that I am not a psychpath, bunny boiler , fraudster or worse!

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi,
thanks you guys, I'm not worried about giving out my details youre all obviously genuine and good people.
Ive pmmed you my address Cyro, thank you so much!

Todays update: Last night she passed a poo which wasn't clear (it was runny but has green in too, sorry if youre eating lunch) after I'd given her some of a calcium tablet. 
She doesn't seem as sensitive to light today, she seemed to be hiding in dark corners but in the corner that she keeps going for the flooring is up and shes pecking at the chipboard flooring underneath... strange...
She seems to be looking for something that shes not getting or lacking?
its so hard to explain and it doesnt help that we know bugger all about birds 

her poo is clear and runny again though  she is eating and wandering about a bit, whereas on saturday night we thought we were going to lose her.

thanks so much again,
x


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Thank you Pidgie, Reti and Maggie. LOL, I just wanted you to confirm that *I am not a psychpath, bunny boiler , fraudster or worse!*
> Cynthia


Cynthia,
You're definitely *NONE* of the above. 
You are, however, a genuine Internet friend of mine, & many others.  

Deedee,
Sending positive thoughts that your little patient shows signs of improvement soon.
Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cynthia is definitely top notch and a professional in pigeon rehab, I would trust her with any of my babies, in fact Skye told me he would love to visit with her, and also Cindy and her birds.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Pidgie, Reti and Maggie. LOL, I just wanted you to confirm that I am not a psychpath, bunny boiler , fraudster or worse!

Cynthia


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Cynthia,
> You're definitely *NONE* of the above.
> You are, however, a genuine Internet friend of mine, & many others.
> 
> ...



Thanks!
I will do.

I just wish I knew what it was shes looking for, its quite obvious that theres something! Shes in the corner where the cupboard door is off (were about to re-do the kitchen) in the cupboard we keep all the herbs, salt pepper, etc and its directly below where we make tea so it could be grains of sugar? random bits of a herb? God knows!
But theres definitely something she was pecking at in the corner yesterday thats shes finished off now!
Any ideas?

sorry to be so vague!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She's craving something. Does she ever get any vitamin supplements or exposure to full sunshine? Vitamin D3 is very important to them.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

deedee said:


> Thanks!
> I will do.
> 
> I just wish I knew what it was shes looking for, its quite obvious that theres something!


She is possibly looking for trace minerals and other things, this is why I recommended the alfalfa, and/or chlorella, as it has many wonderful things in it besides calcium, and it is a natural source. Even a cap of cod liver oil will give her some good source of vitamin D and more.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Shes definitely craving something!

She lives in the house so doesnt go out much, she has one eye and a broken wing, when we put her out (obviously well secured) she doesn't really like it and shakes a lot until we bring her back in.

she doesn't get any additional vitamins, should she be?



eta: her wings are quite low and her tail is quite high, does that signify anything?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, she does need the D3 if she is indoor and isn't seeing much sun. You can pick up a variety of nutrients in foods/greens and things.

I recommend if you can, find some organic source of vitamin D3, as cod liver oil, she will only need a drop or cap once a month. The rest is already mentioned in previous posts.

Do you have access to fresh vegies like kale, endive? My birds love it and thrash it about picking and eating at it. You can also try some carrot shavings. Make sure to wash it all as you would for yourself. Pigeons need variety, and if they aren't getting it in their seed and legumes, it can be provided with little bits of vegies.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> Cynthia is definitely top notch and a professional in pigeon rehab, I would trust her with any of my babies, in fact *Skye told me he would love to visit with her, and also Cindy and her birds.*


*I'd* love to go visit Cynthia.  

Treesa,
Maybe we could pack up our pijjies & we could *all* go visit her.   

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

deedee said:


> eta: her wings are quite low and her tail is quite high, does that signify anything?


You mean she's letting her wings almost drag the ground? Can you post a picture of her like that?

Pidgey


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

pics below, sorry about the size.


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)




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## Guest (Nov 12, 2007)

deedee,
When a bird is ill, they sometimes tend to break away from their normal behavior and do unusual things. I've observed that they can continuously walk around trees and in this case, your bird is eating a lot more grit. This doesn't mean that your bird is craving it but that she is feeling very ill and trying to do anything to feel better. She doesn't know what she wants. 
This could be anything and no one can say what is going on inside but she's critically sick.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Just a thought. Often times a hunched back indicates the possibility of a hen being eggbound.

Cindy


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## deedee (Nov 10, 2007)

Shes not had any eggs for about 2 years though. 
If she was still laying I'd have thought that too, but she feels just like normal so its not an egg issue.
We've given her the cod liver oil.

Why do you say she's 'critically' sick pigeonperson?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, that's a very sick bird and I'd probably opt for getting her under a heat lamp and also getting her on a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo. The last one that I had like was that way for almost a month while I kept her alive by tube-feeding, antibiotics and heat. I started with a combination of Baytril and Metronidazole, dropped the Met after about 10 days and didn't like what I was seeing. I changed her over to the Trimethoprim/Sulfa (A few trade names: Bactrim, Cotrim, Sulfatrim and a bunch of others) and kept her on that for another two weeks until she finally ejected something that looked like a rotten egg. I think there were pictures and some commentary on that link that I gave you much earlier. She's fine now and it's been about a half of a year?

Anyhow, they don't get that look by malnutrition alone and certainly not as an acute event.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2007)

deedee,
Just because she hasn't laid any eggs doesn't mean that there aren't any in her oviduct. It could be that she couldn't pass them normally. She could be accumulating eggs or yolks alone, in her system and is being both poisoned by peritonitis and the organs are being compressed by them. That's if she has eggs in her and I don't know that but it's a pretty good guess.
She's critically ill. Birds assuming this posture do not recover without medical intervention. I'm not going to tell you that this can be fixed with pills because I don't know what the problem is but if it's eggs, they don't always show up on X-Rays. Ultra sound is usually used to locate any oviduct obstructions and if that is what the problem is, she may already be too weak to withstand a surgery so I don't know what to tell you.
Can you check her vent to make sure that it hasn't herniated which would mean she is not able to void properly and is becoming toxic?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Try to keep positive DeeDee.

If you can find a vet in North Yorkshire that can do an ultrasound on a pigeon and interpret it then maybe you should go for that, if only to put your mind at rest. I have little confidence in vets and ultrasound A vet here told me my dog had a tumour on her liver and did a quick ultrasound to prove it, even though his colleague had done a laparotomy the week before and seen no tumour. Thanks to that misdiagnosis poor Beth was subjected to test after test and died as a result of it. By that time we had spent over £5000 trying to pin down the diagnosis. After her death they found out that she had Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

You should receive a parcel tomorrow, I sent it by special D. I will e-mail instructions on use later. I just hope none of the bials leak in transit.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2007)

Cynthia,

There are vets and there are vets. You have to trust one and stay with him/her. Avian vets are simply veterinarians who hold themselves out the public as people who can take care of exotics. In this country, there are certified avian vets and it is they who are board certified and specialized in taking treating birds. The test is so difficult that there are only about 80 who passed it in this country. It's very fortunate that here in New York, there are at least 4 that I can think of at the moment.

I'm currently been in telephone contact with a woman who has a pet pigeon and the bird is in the care of a certified avian vet. The bird was oozing yellow from the vent and it was yolk. X-Rays showed nothing but an ultrasound did show a mass. Surgery removed a mass that was once an egg. The vet did not and still does not want to remove the ovary because in her judgment, the bird is still too weak to be able to withstand the anesthesia. It remains an option sometime in the future. It's not a good situation. While the ovary is still in the bird, she is producing yolks that don't pass. Do a surgery to remove the eggs and the bird can die. Do a surgery to remove the ovary and the bird can die. Doing both at the same time and the bird will die.

I'll be the first one to tell you how dangerous surgery can be for a weakened bird. The anesthesia that should be used on birds is Isoflurane but unless a vet is well trained in these birds, any other anesthesia is very dangerous, not that this one is safe. 

The vet who misdiagnosed your dog is somebody I would never go back to.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The vet who misdiagnosed your dog is somebody I would never go back to.


I go to a different vet now, he is rare because he really cares about pigeons and it is thanks to his vigilance that my spaniel Pippin is alive and well today.

But he did tell me that most small practices can't afford to stock the anaesthetic that is safest for birds. It is so expensive that they would have to charge $1200 just for the anaesthetic when doing surgery.

DeeDee is in the UK, we do not have certified avian vets here. Those vets that have the experience to put themselves forward as avian specialists charge more than four times the consultancy rate of the small animal vets...in this context feral pigeons are classified as exotics.

Cynthia


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