# Please someone respond quickly!!!!



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Hi my name is Tessa and I originally had a post named "bloody droppings in recently rescued pigeon" and now I have a MAJOR problem!!

The little bird pooped...and there are these little worms all over it...worst of all they are still alive!!! I am so scared. They are white and they roll up into a ball, then they expand if they want to move. 

I tried calling Terry but I can't get a hold of him. 

Can these worms be trasnferred to humans???? I am so scared right now. 

What can I use to treat him? Should I just take him to a vet because he probably won't survive?? 

Please help me, I'm freaking out, this is very scary to me.

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

It's ok, calm down. Worms are not a worry to being spread to you but they can spread to other birds. Make sure you are washing your hands THOROUGHLY. Did that pigeon guy give you a wormer that you used to treat the bird?


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

no, I am currently treating him for canker and cocci through a powder I put in water. 

I have been washing my hands very well before handling the other birds so I really hope they are okay. This is really terrible...if they get something my mom will just die. 

I called the avian vet and they said they can't take him till Monday.

I just wish there was something over the counter I could give him. 

The worst part of all this is that my mom is out of town so I have to feed the birds and give them water...I just don't want to be near them right now. 

Oh goodness this is bad. He just pooped again, but there aren't any worms in it, why is that? The one that had the worms on it was huge, too!! And there was this bright yellow stuff that came out the next time he went to the bathroom.

And he's limping on one leg, which he wasn't before. And I know he hasn't got it from being hurt. What could be the problem? 

Thanks for your quick reply, I really appreciate your help.
Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

ok, Keep trying to get in touch with the man who gave you the cocci/canker medications. If you get a hold of him, ask for a wormer. Worms that infect birds don't affect humans. Keep him warm though because he might have a heavy infestation of worms and might be loosing heat. Do you have any farm supplies stores around your house?? They will usually sell something called "IVOMEC" or ivermectin. Can you look into this?


Are you home alone? Is there someone else you could ask for help in going out today at all?


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

No, I have a car so I can go get it, I probably sound young cause i'm freaking out so much =) 

Okay, I am going right now to a feed store to get that stuff...I saw wormers at the feed store when I went before, but they only had instructions on how to give it to turkeys or chickens. 

When I get it, could you tell me how much to give? 

I will be back soon, I am leaving right now to get it.

Thanks so much
Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Tessa,

Wait....you want Ivomec INJECTIBLE......that is the kind to ask for. Don't give the bird anything until I instruct you on how much. You'll need an eye dropper as well or a syringe. Let me know when you're back.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Tessa, it's pretty expensive stuff the ivomec. If you can find something cheaper, that's up to you but I only know how to administer the ivomec. If you get something else, we will have to consult other members on the dosage.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Okay...I got Wazine 17 for Turkey, Chicken, and Swine Wormer. It has a Piperazine Base. 

On the label it says not to feed to to sick, feverish, underweight, or physically weak birds or animals. My bird shows all these symptoms. 

I can go back and exchange it for the injectible. I found some stuff called Ivermectin...but only in a syringe form for horses. Could this work for pigeons if I give the right amount? It was $13.00, so I can definetely afford it. 

Now for the update...he is drinking a LOT of water...his poop is a good portion water with a little bit of green stuff. He isn't eating much..should I force feed him baby formula with a syringe? He is very lethargic...I hope they don't eat everything and I also hope a good amount of the worms came out in his big poo because there were at least 15 in there.

Let me know, and I will go back and pick up the syringe.

Thanks!
Tessa


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Oh and here are the specifics on the paste that was in a syringe form for horses...

1.87% paste
.20 oz syringe
For a 1250 lb horse

Thats the stuff they had that was called Ivermectin.

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

I'm not familiar with Wazine. Did they have ivomec injectable? Ivomec was made for cattle but it is used to treat pigeons as well. It's up to you but I have no knowledge of this product. Did you try to contact that pigeon guy again to see if he has a wormer? If you could get the injectable then I can help you. Do you have a digital scale to weigh the bird? If you don't then we're going to have to just go the old fashioned way and just give the bird a few drops of ivomec from an eyedropper. This is fine anyways because the bird needs to be treated ASAP. Let me know what you're going to do.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

I just called Coastal Farm and Ranch and they have Ivomec Injectible for Cattle, I'm going right now to get it...I'll let you know when i'm back. 

Tessa


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Oh, I forgot to tell you I can't get ahold of that guy I've tried calling a million times. I would wait for him...but I think this bird is close to death. I want to treat him ASAP...anyhow I'll be back soon. 

Thanks for your help
Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Ok Tessa, 

Don't worry about the scale and weighing the bird, you need a proper syringe to to this and it'll be more trouble now. We need to act fast so just use an eye dropper. You only want to give the bird about *2-3 drops *from the eyedropper down it's throat. You're going to have to sit the bird in your lap, perhaps gently wrap a towel around it's body to restrain it from struggling. Then, gently pry the beak open with your thumb and index finger at the corners of it's mouth. Keep your fingers there to wedge the beak open and hold the head and neck upright so that it's towards the ceiling. Put the eye dropper down the throat of the bird far enough past it's windpipe, (the small opening behind the tongue) and squeeze a few drops out of the eyedropper. Don't panic but you will probably see more worms come out in the feces not too much longer after the treatment. Please keep this bird warm and quiet afterwards. It sounds like he has a very bad infestation. Keep me posted how it goes.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Alright I bought the Ivomec Plus for cattle injection. 

Is Ivomec PLUS okay? The lady told me the only difference is that it treats one different type of worm. 

I am going to treat him after I post this, if PLUS is okay. I will tell you how it goes. 

Do I need to treat him more than once, perhaps in a couple weeks? 

Thanks, I hope everything goes well.

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa,

Yes, the ivomec PLUS is fine. Just remember only 2 or 3 drops. He will need to be treated again in about 2 weeks time and then again in another two weeks. Let us know how it goes. I hope this bird will be ok.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Will this wormer medication react badly with the medication i already put in his water? it is a powder I put in his water yesterday for cocci and canker...I will wait until you reply just to be sure. We have everything ready.

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

What is this medication exactly?


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

The guy who gave me the meds won't be home till 9:00. 

Maybe it will help if I tell you a little about it...
It is a white powder and you put 1 teaspoon per liter of water. 

Sorry I can't be more help...all I know is it is for Canker and Cocci only. 

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I meant to ask you as well.....how is the bird doing? Does he seem very ill at this point? You are really not supposed to give any worming medications to severely ill pigeons. I'm worried though because worms in themselves can kill pigeons if the infestation is bad enough.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

he is actually doing pretty good. He is preening himself, drinking a LOT, and occasionally eating. When the guy picked him up yesterday, he said he felt pretty light for his age and asked if he was eating. I told him yes. There is one really strange thing...

He can't walk on one of his legs...but he hasn't injured it while being here, I've been with him practically all the time. Could his bones be very brittle or something? He was limping yesterday, and now he can't walk on it at all. His back toe just touches the front and he never uses it. 

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You are right about that, Brad, you re not supposed to give worming meds in very sick pigeons. But, if the worms are killing him, then you don't have another choise.
I wouldn't worry too much about feeding him, now. make sure he gets enough water.
You can give other meds with the Ivermectin.

You've done great so far, please keep us updated.

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 


I'm not sure about the toe. Good, I'm glad he's acting ok. I think another Member is about to reply and we'll see what she has to add. I think you should probably go ahead and give the ivomec but let's just see what Reti has to add.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Alright we are going to give him the IvoMec now...

Wish us luck =) 

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't know what is going on with his leg.
Did you check the bottom of the foot? Is it swollen?
You can compare it to the healthy foot. See if there are any differences.

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

Thanks, I am thinking the same thing as well then. If the worms are killing him slowly then there isn't a choice here. The fact that you saw blood in his stools Tessa is not a good sign, it means that the worms are doing damage. Go ahead and give him the ivomec and afterwards, keep him warm and quiet.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Okay....

we gave him the meds...

we did right about 2 drops 

Now he is quiet...

I will check his foot in a little bit. Right now he is tired...he put up quite a fight! You guys have been so great! Without you guys he would have died. I can't express how thankful I am for all your help. I will give you an update in a couple hours to see how everything is going. Should I treat him again in the future, or is once enough? 

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

You will need to treat him again two more times, every two weeks the same as today. We will try to help you figure out what is going on with the foot/toe as well. Like you said, let him rest now. You're doing wonderfully with him and hopefully we can get him up all fixed up soon. Thank you very much yourself for going out of your way to help him and getting what he needed today. You're a very kind person


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Tessa,
I am sorry to hear about your bird's condition. I am of no use where pigeons and worms are concerned, but for some general information. Piperazine is a wormer still used in dogs and cats and at one time they gave it to humans. It works of the nervous system of the worm so that it can be passed. The worms, as I understand it, start in the stomach and attaching to the walls, lay more eggs and the host goes into an auto-infest cycle where they move into the lungs and other organs such as the liver. Worms are more common than one might think and a large portion of the world's human population suffer without realizing that they have the problem.
fp


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

So should I go to my doctor to be sure I wasn't infected? I know it sounds awful, but I let the bird sit on my bed and so his droppings might have come close to me. 

I'm so scared...I don't want to get worms. Will they actively seek me if they were somewhere on my bed? 

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Tessa,
it is very unlikely to get worms from a pigeon. 
Depending on the worms, some don't even infect the human species. 
To be on the safe side, I would suggest to change the bed sheets and blankets and wash them thouroughly. Wipe all the areas the bird perched on.
Continue good hygiene, washing hands after handling the bird, no kissing the bird for now, etc.
You should be fine.
If you could take the bird to the vet and have a fecal done, after he has completed the treatment, then you can be sure if he got rid of all the worms.
Some vets agree you take only fecal matter in for a check, so you don't have to pay for visit, and examination. Best you call and ask.

If you have other birds, treat them also.

How is your pigie doing today?

Reti


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Tessa,

Don't worry about catching the worms! That won't happen. 

The live worms themselves are not a problem, they can be disposed of and forgotten

Worms lay eggs in the digestive tract and birds pass the eggs in their droppings. Other birds will eat food that has been contaminated by the droppings of infected birds, swallow the worm eggs which hatch inside them and that is how they catch worms from each other.

If you have kept the pigeon separate from other birds there can be no contamination.

Cynthia


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

How is the pigeon today? Did anymore worms come out in his droppings?


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

I got rid of the sheets with his droppings on them, and I am going to wash everything else today. I isolated my blankets for a night just in case, but he didn't come in contact with them anyhow. 

I did call the vet and asked if I could have just a fecal sample done, and they refused. They said I must also have an examination becuase fecal samples alone can't always diagnose the entire problem. It would end up being around $80.00 without the meds. If you think it is necessary, I can take him there, but if the IvoMec is enough then I will just continue that treatment. 

Today he is doing good and bad. He seems to be eating pretty well, and not drinking excessively like he was before. But his legs are just giving out on him if he is on them long enough. I am going to take a picture of both legs and post it soon, I just have to charge up my digital camera first. Last night he tried to walk and just collapsed. I am wondering if perhaps his bones have become weak because the worms sucked out all the nutrients in his body such as calcium. Should I buy some grit to put on his food to give him more calcium?

I also am debating whether or not I should continue with the water treatment for canker and cocci. It seems weird that only I after I medicated him I saw the worms in his droppings. Perhaps somehow it helped in him passing worms. I am supposed to change the water today, so I will wait for your response before continuing treatment. 

He is dangerously skinny, I felt underneath his wings and his bones are really easy to feel. Maybe now that he has passed more worms he can start to really digest that food. There are what appears to be worms in his droppings today, but they are much smaller than the ones yesterday, and not alive. I must say this bird is very tough and has quite a will to live! He loves people and he goes crazy trying to get out of the cage so he can come sit on the bed with me. I am really starting to get attached! 

Now for another dilemma I am faced with. The avian veterinarian said if I give them the pigeon and a donation, they will treat the bird and then release it. They have a huge garage they put all the treated birds into and open the doors when they are all ready to go. They said they have only had a few cases of hawks getting the birds. I wonder if they are less inclined to treat the bird if something they have is hard to get rid of, like worms. Although I know they probably wouldn't admit it, they might just put the birds down that are going to require excessive amounts of care. I don't know for sure, but I wonder. 

The other option is that I stick it out and treat this little guy and then release him. The problem is that I think he may be too tame once all the treatments are complete. It is hard because we do have the other parrots in the house and I don't want them to catch something, even though I know it is probably unlikely. The pigeon is upstairs and the parrots are downstairs. I always wash my hands vigerously before handling the parrots. I just want the little pigeon to experience freedom because I don't want to be selfish and keep him when he could be with a mate and outside. 

Thanks for reading my long post! =)
Tessa


----------



## sharon_46 (Feb 17, 2005)

Tessa,

Bless you for doing such a good job caring for this injured and ill pigeon. From what you've posted, it seems like this little fella is already pretty tame. If he escaped from a "pet" home, or was turned loose by an unknown person, it may explain the starvation. He/she may not know how to fend for himself in the wild. I rescued a young fledgling 3 days before Christmas. He was badly injured and nearly starved to death. With the help of some wonderful people he is now happy and healthy, and a member of the family....which includes 17 rescued dogs and a rescued Starling. Lil Ledgie is a "house" pigeon, and is so much fun to watch and interact with.

Others here may have additional input, but I think it is possible that your pigeon may need human care and not really be releasable. If you feel you can't give him a permanent home, folks here can help you find a GOOD one.

Best of luck, and thanks again for caring.

Soft Feathers, Sharon, TP and Lil Ledgie


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Okay, the pigeon went to the bathroom and there were live worms in it. I threw away the rag she went to the bathroom on to contain them. 

I also treated her again with the canker/cocci treatment in the water, just in case. I wish she would gain more weight. It doesn't seem like shes eating enough. 

I got some pix of the worms, I will post them soon. Thank you so much sharon_46--it seems I will do anything for a pigeon because I love them so much! 

Talk to you soon, 
Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Tessa,
You are doing a great job in caring for this pigeon. He needs your care and he knows you are helping him.
Plese, continue the canker/coccidia meds, for as long as adviced.
Also, keep on observing his droppings for any further worms. You might have to give him another dose of the wormer sooner than in two weeks, if he continues eliminating them. But lets give it another couple of days.

As for the foot, that worries me now. Please post a pic if you can.
You might have to put the bird on antibiotic tablets or suspension. Besides the coccidia/canker meds might not target a possible infection in the foot/leg.

Do you have access to antibiotics tablets? Clavamox and Baytril would be good choise. Also, I would add an antifungal, like Nystatin. Fungal infections are pretty common in pigeons after antibiotic treatment.

Please let us know how the baby is doing.

Reti


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Where do i get these meds at? Pet stores or feed stores? His leg is really worrying me too! After one thing gets better it seems something else gets worse! I feel so sorry for this poor baby. It has been through so much, I can't imagine. 

How soon should I give the next treatment? I only gave 2 drops this time, should I give 3 the next? He has a very heavy infestation I can tell. 

I will need help in holding the bird and my boyfriend is at work so I might have to wait till tomorrow to get the pictures. There seems to be little growths where the back toe is and where the leg bone joins the....I dunno how to explain it. Perhaps it is swelling, but it is a bump. 

The worms are still coming out just as much as before and they are very creepy how they move and stuff...I hope they go away soon. 

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Tessa, seems like you pigeon does have a heavy infestation of worms.
The problem is that the wormer meds are pretty toxic, that's why I don't know if I should recommend another dose right now.
Give it another day or two, lets see maybe the droppings clear a bit. If not, then definetely you should give him three drops in two. 

I am not clear about the bumps on the legs, is there a way to post a pic? That would help.
I could send you some antibiotics, but we need to know what to send you, that's why a pic would great.

Reti


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

I tried to take a picture, but I just can't do it by myself. he is in so much pain that he collapses everytime I try to touch his legs. I don't know what to do. His back toe is bent to the front and is touching his front toes. It is really weird. I noticed this even before he started limping. 

I will definitely get you a pic soon, no one is here right now to help me. After school tomorrow, I will take a pic with the help of my boyfriend who is very good at handling birds. 

Tessa


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm sure I am way off base about the toes...but if anyone else is familiar with "bumble foot" could it be that?


----------



## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

Hi Tessa,
You are truly an angel of mercy for this pigeon in need. If your worried about transmitting anything between you pigeon and you parrots and visa versa you could wash you hands in bleach. They'll smell a bit but the bleach will kill whatever you might have on your hands. I used to do that when I first rescued my feral and wasn't sure if he had anything that would harm my parrots. Keep up the great work!


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Thanks Pete! I've been washing my hands very well before feeding the birds, so I think I will be okay. I don't know if I have any bleach, I will ask my mom when she gets home. 

I looked at some pictures of bumblefoot, and it doesn't really look like that. It is barely noticable. It might just be swelling...i'm not really sure. But there is one thing I found it might be. It is called salmonella or something like that and it has the potential to paralyze legs and feet. Perhaps it is something like that?

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Tessa, can you put some neosporin on his leg? It might ease the pain a bit.
Also, keep a bottle with warm water under him, wrapped in a towel. If you have a heating pad that would be even better.

Can you eamil me your address privately, so I can send you some meds tomorrow?

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Could be salmonella. I just remembered one of my pigeons had this. But he was not in pain.
I will have to look if have meds for that.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Tessa and all,

Tessa .. have a really, really, really close look at the legs and feet to be sure there isn't something like a human hair, piece of clear fishing line, or anything of a string nature that might be constricting the blood flow.

It could also be salmonella (paratyphoid) which would be treated with Baytril.

The weakness of the legs could also be due to poor nutrition before the little one got to you. If this is the case then good food along with vitamins and minerals should improve the condition. There is, however, a condition called Metabolic Bone Disease that can occur in malnourished youngsters, and depending upon whether this is the culprit and upon the degree of severity, it may or may not be "fixable".

Please keep us posted, and we'll be looking for pictures when you can send them.

Terry


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for all the suggestions, Terry.
In case of metabolic bone disease would some additional calcium help?
In addition to the Baytril, for in case of salmonella?
What else would the poor guy benefit from? That is if it is not string injury.

How about bumble foot, Pete suggested it I think.

Reti


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Here are the pictures I got! 
The one with the worms is the poo on a white background...it is the little white things all around the poop. 
The one on the newspaper is just a recent poo I thought might be helpful. 
They are too big...I will have to do them individually.
Tessa


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Next picture of the pigeon...

Tessa


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Reti and all,

Hard to tell without the pics .. I'm guessing at this point that it isn't bumblefoot. If I had to make a guess, I'd guess extreme malnutrition and all the subsequent problems caused by it. Plus, the obvious worms .. this poor young bird hasn't had the ability to stave off much of anything on its own .. whether this is due to being taken in by a well meaning person or due to problems with the parents or environment .. who knows .. we never will. About all we can do at this point is continue to try to help Tessa do the best she can for the young bird.

As to the additional calcium .. might help .. might not .. the calcium and phosphorus ratio needs to be right, vitamin D3 present in the diet or from direct sunlight to aid the absorption of the calcium .. in ducks, we also give additional Vit B and Niacin in such cases.

Terry


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

I can't post the pix..I am going to send them to Reti at her email address and hopefully she can forward them to all who would like to see them...
Thanx
Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

I'm sorry to hear that there may be more problems with this young pigeon. You have gotten some excellent advice today although it is very hard to know for sure what all is going on with this pigeon. I agree with Reti and you should continue on the medication you were given for the cocci and canker for the proper duration. More than likely this bird has cocci as well and seems to be in very poor shape. You are right though, they are strong birds and fighters. It will be great when we can all see some more pictures of the toe/foot and try to figure that out as well. Do you have any bird vitamins that you use for your parrots? If so, it might be a good idea to give some to the pigeon as well. This bird needs all the help it can get right now and as others have mentioned, it's likely he's suffering from malnutrition in the worst way. I also meant to ask you, what exactly are you giving the bird to eat? 

Thanks again for all that you're doing,


----------



## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

Reti said:


> How about bumble foot, Pete suggested it I think.


That was Rockie "Leslie" who made that suggestion


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

How is the poor baby doing today.
I'll be sending some meds today.
I am thinking some Baytril, Clavamox and gluconate calcium. 
What else would you guys suggest. 
Also we would have to figure out the doses. Tessa is there a way to weigh the bird?

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Tessa,
I received the pictures in my email, only they are so tiny and I can't make them any larger, it's very hard to see what's on there.
Hopefully one of the members will be on soon and help us with posting them.

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, Tessa and all, 

Here are the pictures that Tessa forwarded today.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Tessa, 

I looked really hard in the worm picture and even blew it up more and I couldn't really see any worms. How long were these worms you saw? Were they about an inch long or so? When I blew up the picture a bit more, I did notice a few white things next to the poop that looked almost like rice. Is this was you were talking about? The picture gets blurry though when it's blown up too much. I'm wondering if these are maggots instead of worms!


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, Brad.
You did a great job with those pics.

Tessa, I would suggest to feed the pigeon soaked puppy chow, he will need all the nutrition he can get, and the extra protein in the puppy chow will help him.

I am still not clear what is going on with the legs.

How are the droppings today, any more worms you can see?

Reti


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Today I didn't see any worms in the poo! Yes, the white things that look like rice are the worms. I don't think they are maggots because they roll into balls, then expand when they want to move. So at first, they just look like a little whitish ball, and then they expand to about half a cm or so. 

Maybe this will help, I found him outside a restaurant called "Black Angus" and it is a primarily steak restaurant. I am wondering if perhaps the parents got into some raw meat by the dumpsters and got these worms that way. Maybe it is a longshot, but I just can't find any worm online that looks like these. 

He is doing better, but still drinking excessively after 2 days of the canker/cocci treatment. When he poops, a LOT of water comes out with it. He also holds his beak open slightly and grunts sometimes. 

He actually tried to fly today, he was flapping his wings for the first time. His one goal in life seems to be getting on my bed! He will do anything to get on my bed, so its hard to have him out cause hes fast. Right now he is on my window sill drinking, and he has been eating a little bit. 

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Tessa,
I just send you a private email.
It is good he is drinking, please, if you think he is not eating enough, supplement his feedings with some puppy chow.
Also, you can give him some vitamins in his water. Any vitamins for birds is fine. Another thing that might help with the worms is garlic. It is a good antioxidant and helps build up the immune system.
If you don't have garlic capsules you can slice a garlic and put a little piece in his water.

This guy is so lucky you found him.

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Teesa and all, 

Your pigeon is quite young still. You had asked is approx. age and I would say between 3 and 4 weeks old. The reason I suggested maggots is because there are circumstances where fly larvae will actually get into the digestive tract. It's called intestinal myiasis. You said that they also looked like rice and normally worms really don't, none that I've seen anyways. The white worms I've seen are either called *round* worms and are thin and about an inch long, and they other type I've seen are called *hair* or *thread * worms and they are thin, like their name suggests and very hard to see. This doesn't mean that there are not other types but I don't know why but after I thought about it, maggots suddenly popped into my head. The ivomec should hopefully treat any internal parasites anyways. He looks like a really sweet pigeon though. You're doing a great job Tessa caring for him.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

I am feeding him a wild bird seed food with cracked corn, sunflower seeds, and normal seeds. I also mixed in some Myna Bird food. After reading your post, I think it may be maggots! Hopefully the meds will take care of it. 
I just bought some puppy food and I will feed it to him tomorrow because he is sleeping. I also bought some vitamins to put in his water, I hope it is alright to mix the powder canker/cocci treatment with the vitamins, they both go in the water. 

Again, thank you all for the helpful replies, I couldn't do it without you!!  
Tessa


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Brad,

I thought it sounded like maggots too, but I did not know that fly larvae could get into the intestinal tract like that and be able to develop into maggots, so I felt a little foolish suggesting it......I am glad my thought wasn't too far out!

Since the bird was found near a steakhouse......is it possible that maybe the bird ate scraps that flys laid eggs on? Is that how the larvae would get into the intestinal tract? Or am I off base?.....just wondering

Tessa, Hope everything goes well with your bird....this problem was out my league, so I have been leaving it to the experts to help you out...but I send you my best wishes for your birds speedy recovery.

Linda


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Lin and all, 

Yes, this is exactly how the fly eggs would get into the digestive tract of an animal. I did a little more research on it earlier tonight and it seems it's not all that common but it is definitely possible however. I had remembered seeing a program on the discovery channel once before about this and then after I studied the pictures, it came to mind.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Thank you Lin  

The bird has been pooping out a LOT of worms in the last couple hours, and they are alive. It is so frustrating! Just as many as before I did any treatment at all. I just want them to die!!! They are weird looking worms too....I wonder what they are. 

Should I do another treatment with the IvoMec? How many drops?

Thanks for all the help!
Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

I wouldn't recommend another treatment quite yet. Even though Ivomec as a large margin of safety, all worming medications are pretty potent. Also, this little guy or girl is young and not very strong yet. It is working though due to the fact that worms are still coming out, this is a good sign. Do you have a digital scale to weigh the bird, this would be awesome. The kind that you use around the kitchen or a postal scale. This way, you could keep track of his weight daily and see if he's gaining or losing weight each day.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Tapeworm*



> Yes, the white things that look like rice are the worms.


An excellent description, which means that the pigeon has *tapeworm.*

The little bits that look like rice are egg-filled segments. Later they will look like dry rice.

The tapeworm has a head that attaches itself to the bowel of the pigeon and its body is made up of packets of eggs. When they are mature the egg segments break free and pass down the bowel to be expelled with the droppings. When they are passed they will wriggle away from the poop. They look like pieces of rice, white or pinkish in colour. This is what is happening to your pigeon now.

You must treat with a wormer that is specifically for tape worm, like *Moxidectin Plus*. As far as I am aware Ivermec and Panacur don't kill tapeworms. Perhaps your local vet has something suitable.

Before treating please check that there will be no adverse reaction for treating with different wormers within a short period.

When the tapeworm dies and passes out of the body it will look like a long thing ribbon.

The way tapeworm spreads is though insects ingesting the eggs which hatch into larvae inside the insect. The pigeon eats the insect and becomes reinfested. So as you have destroyed the eggs your other birds should be okay.

Cynthia


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

I talked with the vet and I think I just don't know what to do. They can treat it for around $100 dollars, and I made an appointment. 

This is just so hard. Should I just donate the bird to the vet and they will treat and release him? I just can't keep him as a pet with the other birds. 

I am really confused...I want to help him, but when everything is said and done I don't know what to do with him because I can't keep him! 

I have to decide before 3:00pm today what I am going to do. After Reti sent the meds and everything I should probably treat him as a pet and bring him home. I am so sorry Reti! I wish I would have known sooner what type of worm it was. On top of all this, I hope he can still be treated when I have already given him IvoMec. 

This is really bothering me! It is a hard decision. 

Tessa


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I can't believe that your vet would charge $100 to treat for tapeworm. That is extortion! 

I am a bit out of my depth here because I am in the UK and I have no experience of US vets, but our vets would just charge a consultation fee of about $26 and prescribe a suitable wormer. My cat has had tapeworm and it was a one tablet treatment.

Moxidectin Plus is only $23.95 from Seigels and that is for 125 ml... that would treat a lot of pigeons if the dosage is the same as Moxidectin (0.2 ml)!

_Moxidectin Plus - This wormer has all of the benefits of Moxidectin along with the added ingredient of praziquantel for tapeworm control, making this the best all-round wormer for pigeons. Developed by Dr. Colin Walker, "The Flying Vet." (Australian Pigeon Company)
125 ml. 
$23.95
Item #3026
SW 1.70 lbs_

Also, it is only to be on the safe side that I think you should check how wormers combine, but it will probablty be perfectly safe as there must be lots of pigeons that get infested with 2 types of worms.

Have you contacted the fancier that you were in touch with? Maybe he/she or another of our members can help out with another wormer or advice?

Cynthia


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I can get Moxidectin probably from my vet. 

Yes, unfortunatley some vets do charge a lot of money, they want to do the whole exam and blood tests and all. Unless you have somebody who trusts your judgement and cares for animals, that's what happens.
I had a vet who charged me hundreds of dollars and countless visits and at the end was telling me, why am I so nervous about my cat having bloody diarrhea, it's normal. OK. 

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Teesa, 

I'm sorry that you're confused. It IS all very confusing to get all this information tossed at you at once. I think you're doing your best and that is all that matters. You've got meds, you've bought the wormer and my only suggestion right now is to see if you can contact that pigeon fancier again for the other wormer. You've done wonderfully really under the circumstances. How is the bird doing today anyways? Please don't give up and try not to feel overwhelmed. If you just give it a bit more time perhaps we can try to find you a rehabber that might take the bird. 


Please keep us posted and respond when you can,


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Alrighty, today I took the little pigeon to the vet! She did a fecal test and said he doesn't have any worms, which is good, but he does have very weak kidneys and that explains the increased water intake. 

She also gave him a pill for the tapeworm. She doesn't want me to give him any puppy chow right now because it has too much protein and his liver is too weak to break it down. So my main focus is getting him to gain weight. He only weighed 145 grams, and a normal pigeon would weigh over 300!!!! 

If I can get him to gain weight, he will survive. But if I don't she thinks he will probably die soon. So now I am off to get him a lot of different types of food and treats so he can focus on getting healthy! 

He is such a sweet lil guy and he loves car rides!!! The IvoMec probably really helped because she couldn't find any eggs in the fecal sample. I am glad I kept him because I want to help him to get well again. I am even working on my parents to let me keep him if he survives (I hope more than anything he will!) 

If anyone can suggest something that pigeons love and can't resist, that will help!! The vet cost was only $48! She gave me a good deal because she knows I don't have much money. 

Thank you all again for your advice!! I couldn't have done this without you!

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

That's WONDERFUL!. I was going to suggest the vet again. Calling around to see if you could find an avian vet that would just allow you to take in a fecal sample rather than take the bird in as well for a complete examination. 

Corn is a fattier type grain for gaining weight. Can you start giving the pigeon avian vitamins once a week as well? Popcorn kernals from home can be given to him. Safflower and sunflower seeds are also good if you can pick some up. The no salted, shelled and RAW sunflowers. Don't over-do it though, just make sure he can get some seeds that will help him gain some weight.

Thanks for the update and I'm so thrilled you got him to the vet. You are doing so amazing. If we can get him to gain weight, like you say, this might just be the difference in getting him healthier. Just always remember, this bird would likely be dead by now if you hadn't taken him in. Don't let all this information overwhelm you and many of us are trying our best to give assistance. Always post your concerns before you do something and we will try to come up with an easier and cost efficient remedy for you.

Thanks again,


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

When I want to get weight on my birds quickly I use safflower I also have used natural peanut butter with no additives or preservatives, there is one brand that you can purchase at most grocery stores it is called Adams (or peanut butter from a health food store)and it states all natural. This is how I use it and it is very high fat.

50% pigeon feed
50% safflower
spoon of Adams all natural peanut butter
small spoon of safflower oil

Then you stir and stir, the oil helps with breaking the peanut butter down so it mixes into the feed better, the first time you do this he may think you are crazy but they love it after they start eating it and it is very high in fat. Some of the pigeon racers use the peanut butter with their birds me included and really like it.

Ellen


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Leslie,

That is wonderful news and I hope that the pigeon is on his way to recovery now. Although he is a bit on the skinny side he is still a squeaker so his weight should climb up to the normal range soon. 

I think that the Ivermec will have taken care of any external parasites as well as internal ones, so the little one must be feeling a lot more comfortable than he was.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the wonderful news. And also thank you to the vet, who is so nice not to charge you an arm and a leg.
Brad and Ellen gave you some great advice on feeding.
My pigeons love safflower seeds, some also love corn. And almost all go crazy about peanuts (raw, unsalted).
You can purchase them at the pet store, if you have a good one near you, or even the grocery store should have at least corn and peanuts.

I hope you can keep the little guy, after all you have been through together , you deserve it.

Please keep us updated on this sweet pigie.

Reti


----------



## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

hemp is high in fat and good for young birds


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Oh I have the best news today!!!
I came home from school and he found a treat he likes!!! He almost ate all of it, so I am going to get more tonight. He also had the most normal looking dropping I have ever seen him have!! It was perfectly formed, with the normal white stuff and no worms. I am so excited right now, he is definitely on his way to recovery. He also tried flying for the first time since i've had him and he has lots of energy. 

I recieved the meds today, Reti, Thank you! I don't know if I should use them or not. Would you like me to send them back? I have no problem paying for shipping and everything so whatever you think would be best. 

I just had to give you guys the great news cause he wouldn't be this healthy without all your good advice!

Tessa


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Tessa,
this is just great news. i wish your pigie a speedy recovery.
I think just taking them to a vet does wonders sometimes.
My Angel had once canker, I didn't know it then, but on a Sunday she fell ill, was just sitting on her chair and refused to eat or drink. On Monday first thing I took her to the vet, who made the diagnosis. When we came back home, first thing Angel did was going to her food dish and eat. I guess she figured "I'g better eat before we go back to that mean person who dug into my throat with the q-tib".LOL

Tessa, you don't have to send me back the meds. The calcium should be good still for a long time. If your pigie turns out to be a girl and will lay eggs, you can give it to her once a month.
The Baytril you can put in the fridge and keep it for another six months, after that you can discard it.

I am glad he is doing so good.
Please, give him some vitamins in his water. Pet stores have vitamins for birds. You can give it to him twice a week.

Reti


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

LOL Reti I think you're right about the vet! Somehow they know they have to start getting better or it's back to that awful place! 

I gave him vitamins in his water called Vita Sol which I purchased at Petsmart. I also am going to purchase some of the other things you have all suggested to give him to encourage weight gain. I will keep the meds cause that is a very good thing to have around if you need it. I will also give him the calcium to help his leg, I hope its not permantely damaged...the vet says it is a possibility. Even if it is, I will still care for him in any way he needs it. 

When I start getting more hours at my job, I am going to purchase him a parrot cage so he is comfortable and happy. I am even going to try and convince my parents to let him be downstairs with the birds if I get him a clean bill of health at the next vet visit. 

Anyhow, Thanks again everyone, I will give you more updates soon!

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 

Thank you for this most ENCOURAGING news today! I am very happy that things seem to be making a turn around with the little pigeon. Your TLC is also helping him very much so please continue to keep us updated on his recovery and happenings


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

*He also had the most normal looking dropping I have ever seen him have!! It was perfectly formed, with the normal white stuff and no worms. I am so excited right now, he is definitely on his way to recovery.* 


Tessa,

Did you ever think you would see the day come that you would be so excited about poop?  LOLOL

Am very glad to see the promising update....best wishes to your pidge for a speedy recovery.

Linda


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tessa, 


How are things going with your patient? We didn't hear from you today and I'm curious to see if things are still going well with the baby. Hopefully you will give us another good update tomorrow on his progress.


Take care,


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Hi PigeonPal!

Sorry I haven't given recent updates, i've been really busy with school lately catching up from when I was busy with this lil guy (John). 

He is doing really well!! No more live worm in the droppings, although there were a few what looked like dead worms. And now he has discovered eating, he just doesn't stop! I am so happy. Everyday I look forward to getting off school so I can get home and make sure everything is okay. It has been a full time job trying to keep up with changing the cage lining, because he has so much water in his poop. I hope he stops drinking so much soon, I think it is a sign of a problem with the kidneys or liver, I can't remember. The vet said it should go away, that there is a little chance of permanent damage, but he is trying to cleanse the liver or kidney. 

I had a question....do pigeons get fleas? I am trying to pinpoint where these fleas are showing up from and its driving me crazy!!! I HATE fleas. Hopefully I can stop the infestation soon so it doesn't grow larger. 

I am going to attempt to attach a recent picture of John so you can all see how beautiful he is!

Thanks again everyone!!

Tessa


----------



## jonathand (Feb 11, 2005)

he is a vey nice pigeon and he looks like he is doing good. YES pigeons do get fleas but you dont need to worry about that my pigeons got that befor and i got rid of them so that is not a worry.it looks like you are taking really good care of him so are all the worms gone... are you soon gonna put him back with the other pigeons... and why do you ask about fleas do you think he has them... and if you are looking for them you can look under the wings that is where you will usually see them if he has them or if your other ones do GOOD LUCK. keep me posted and good jod with the pigeon it loks like you are doing an excellent job!!!!!!!!

JONATHAN


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh, he is such a handsome, adorable little pigie.
I am glad he is eating, that is wonderful news.

If you think he has fleas, lice or pigeon flies you can purchase from the pet store a spay for birds. When you spray it on John, make sure you cover his head so he won't get any spray in his eyes or nostrils. The spray should get rid of any bugs bothering John.

Reti


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

Alright I will go tonight and get some spray. I will be carefull not to get it in his nostrils or his eyes. 

I think all the worms are gone. I can't see them in fresh poop, but in some of the dried ones I see what looks like worms, but they are frozen in the poop. I'm pretty sure they are all gone, at least I haven't seen any live ones lately. I think I am going to keep him for a pet because he is just too nice to be in the wild. He loves to be held and talked to, and he seems perfectly content just where he is! If he seemed like he was antsy and wanted to be free I would let him, but I just don't know any safe places to set him free over here. We have a LOT of hawks and I just don't want him to get caught. 

I'm not sure if he has fleas, but I have noticed a lot of fleas in my room lately, but no where else in the house. John is in my room, so that was my first suspect. I vaccumed really good so I hope that took care of them. I haven't checked him yet, but I will now that I know they can get them. I will keep you posted on whether or not I find any. 

Thanks Reti! And John thanks you too! We thank you so much for your help!

Tessa


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Tessa,

You can also get some Sevin dust from the garden center .. it will get fleas and mites from the bird as well as from your carpet . sprinkle it on and then vacuum up from the carpet (obviously not from the bird).

Terry


----------



## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

Hi Tessa, Your John is one good looking hunk of pidgie! I'm soooo happy to hear he's on the road to recovery  If anyone could help a pigeon in need it's the experts on this board. 
Best of luck with John,


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Teesa, 

I'm sorry I've been slow in responding myself. Actually, I've never heard of pigeons/birds getting fleas. All my sources; books, literature and general knowledge only points to them getting lice, mites and pigeons flies as external parasites. Parasites are species' specific and fleas are not something that they acquire. However the Ivomec will have taken care of any external and _most _internal parasites as well. I just saw your most recent pic of "John" and he is such a beauty! I think it will work out well if you chose to keep him. Pigeons at his age bond quite readily to humans and he will always crave your company now. Again, sorry I was late in responding and please keep the updates coming.


----------



## PigeonLoVr1456 (Jul 20, 2002)

It is good to hear from you pigeonpal!! And thank you Pete, he is a beauty!

I checked him over and couldn't find any fleas so I think I have got rid of the problem. My cat used to sleep in my room, so I think they are from her. Don't worry, she is old and doesn't mind birds at all. She has been around my parrots for 10 years and has never made a move to hurt them. She actually runs if they come near her. But I still don't let her near the pigeon just to be safe. He is doing great lately, and I have really bonded with him. He loves to roost in my hand and soak up sun. Lately he has been testing out his wings, but he hasn't got off the ground yet. His limp is also going away, now it is barely noticable. I think he is starting to gain the muscle back he lost when he wasn't eating in his legs. 

Good to hear from all of you, and thank you Terry for the advice!

Tessa


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Teesa, 

Thanks again for another great update! I'm so glad that things seem to be getting better each day for this young guy. Have you convinced your mom to keep him? Let's hope he's found a soft spot in her heart Well, post some more pictures when you can and if you have any questions, please feel free to post them.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great news, Tessa.
I think he will soon be 100%. Lucky little guy.

Reti


----------

