# white + lavender



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

what will I get if I pair a male pure white with a female pure lavender(silky)?

I know the parents of the male are also pure white. The female side, seems both are silky colour.

I guess I will get silky lavender color or red chicks?


----------



## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

If white eye is dark. You won,t get any white because it is a recessive gene. Lavender carry spread factor. So it is not possible to get lavender babies. all young's will carry white and lavender. What ever their color is.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

If the hen is infact ash red spread then All the cockbirds will be ash red based, Half will be spread in both sexes so the cockbirds that have the spread gene will show lavendar. I am not sure why Albanni thinks they will not as spread is dominate so half the young will inherit and show the spread factor. 

It is also possible to get whites even if the white bird is recessive white as it is possible the lavendar carries the gene so Albanni is also a little off with that comment.

A few questions to help us with answering,

Do you know what the parents of either were, For example. Did the Lavendar come from a white? 

What is the eye colour of the white bird?

Photos? Also is the lavendar spread on ash red or milky on blue??

Albanni, All the young will not carry spread/lavendar at all. Your post is a little confusing for the beginners, best not to post stuff unless you are certain it is correct.


----------



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

the cock bird is recessive white, withe dark eye, all his parents are recessive white as well.

the hen is lavender body with pure white tail. her parents and sibling all look similar as her, some are pure lavender, some have white feather on the tail..I think origianlly they possbily ash red body with white tail, somehow get dilute gene, thus the offspring become lavender colour.


----------



## Callum Young (Oct 29, 2012)

Wow! you know your pigeons!


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Dilute has nothing to do with lavendar, Lavendar is caused by spread.

From the answer to your questions all we can say is you will get ash red cocks and lavendars and then a whole lot of other things depending whats under the white.


----------



## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I am not sure why Albanni thinks they will not as spread is dominate so half the young will inherit and show the spread factor.
> 
> It is also possible to get whites even if the white bird is recessive white as it is possible the lavender carries the gene so Albanni is also a little off with that comment.
> Photos? Also is the lavendar spread on ash red or milky on blue??


I'm sorry if I couldn't explain my point properly. I'm not English speaker .

Many people call (Spread Ash Red) lavender.. and spread ash lavender is different than Milky Blue.therefore, I said all young's will carry spread.


http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/spreadresults.html

"Spread is the genetic factor which turns blue bars & checks into blacks; brown bars & checks into self browns; ash-red bars & checks into "lavenders"


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I know what you said and I know what you meant, I also know what spread is.

If a bird is ash red spread, ( lavendar ) there is no way of knowing that it will pass the gene on to all its young. It's possible only half of them will pick up the spread gene but they will express as it is dominant, So in short, Half the young will definitely be spread. ( Lavendars if ash red ) and the *cocks will be ash red based regardless. Thats the only thing we can count on here.*


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

dingweding said:


> what will I get if I pair a male pure white with a female pure lavender(silky)?
> 
> I know the parents of the male are also pure white. The female side, seems both are silky colour.
> 
> I guess I will get silky lavender color or red chicks?


 Hi dingweding, the first thing you must understand is that ash red spread brakes down into 3 different color spreads they are Mahogany, Brownish Reds, and lavender,with about 90% being the brownish reds which are not very attractive. How ever the Mahogany and the Lavender show up about 5% each,both the Mahogany and the Lavender are very attractive birds. I feel that mating your hen to a red bar will give a better chance to get LAVENDER, while a mating with a t-check ash-red will be better for the Mahogany type.You need to keep in mind that the red cock could be carring a second color blue so you MUST use a homozygous ( pure for) ASH RED. ..GEORGE


----------



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks a lot guys, I learned a lot from you. what is Mahogany? is it some colour normally we call dun?????


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

george simon said:


> Hi dingweding, the first thing you must understand is that ash red spread brakes down into 3 different color spreads they are Mahogany, Brownish Reds, and lavender,with about 90% being the brownish reds which are not very attractive. How ever the Mahogany and the Lavender show up about 5% each,both the Mahogany and the Lavender are very attractive birds. I feel that mating your hen to a red bar will give a better chance to get LAVENDER, while a mating with a t-check ash-red will be better for the Mahogany type.You need to keep in mind that the red cock could be carring a second color blue so you MUST use a homozygous ( pure for) ASH RED. ..GEORGE




George, How do you work out that 90% are brownish reds, And 5% for the others? I have never heard these percentages. Ash red does not break down into 3 colour spreads. It is ash red and then modifiers affect the phenotype just like any other colour. We could apply the same logic and say blue has 10 different colour spreads, Smoky, spread, dirty for example but thats not how genetics works.

At the end of the day George, If a bird is het spread and is homozygous for red then 50% of young will be spread, Not 5% not 95% but 50%. Percentages like yours are just rubbish as the bird needs to spread gene to produce lavendar so if one does not have spread in their loft then your percentages would never come to play.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

dingweding said:


> what will I get if I pair a male pure white with a female pure lavender(silky)?
> 
> I know the parents of the male are also pure white. The female side, seems both are silky colour.
> 
> I guess I will get silky lavender color or red chicks?


Predicting the color of the offspring from a rec. white parent with rec. white ancestry is impossible because rec. white is a gene that restricts the color pigment from being expressed, while genetically the bird is a color. A rec. white bird may even possess pied marking genetics, therefore producing baldhead, saddle, whiteflight, etc. youngsters. As long as you don't know what its color genes are it is hopeless to predict outcome. However, if the mate is homozygous ash red and homozygous spread, as it sounds like it may be, then all offspring will be spread ash red with varying expressions, dependent upon the modifiers present in the genetic makeup of the white mate. 
Also, dark eyes on a white pigeon does not always indicate that the bird is rec. white. I've seen baldhead marked homozygous grizzle rollers and mismarked saddle homers that are bull eyed whites but are not rec. white.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Tmass, Why do you assume the bird is homozygous for ash red and spread?

Also, It is not impossible to predict in this case that all the cockbirds will be ash red based so in some cases even with rec white involved we can ascertain some points.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Evan, I didn't assume spread ash, I stated that it "may be", and it was based on the fact that dingweding said her parents and siblings looked the same as she does.

Yes, genetically her sons would be ash red, but phenotypicly they could be het. grizzle, almond, faded, qualmond, piebald with unlimited possibilities, etc. depending on what the white cock is.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

NZ Pigeon said:


> George, How do you work out that 90% are brownish reds, And 5% for the others? I have never heard these percentages. Ash red does not break down into 3 colour spreads. It is ash red and then modifiers affect the phenotype just like any other colour. We could apply the same logic and say blue has 10 different colour spreads, Smoky, spread, dirty for example but thats not how genetics works.
> 
> At the end of the day George, If a bird is het spread and is homozygous for red then 50% of young will be spread, Not 5% not 95% but 50%. Percentages like yours are just rubbish as the bird needs to spread gene to produce lavendar so if one does not have spread in their loft then your percentages would never come to play.


*Hi Evan The information comes out of Joe Quinns book "An Introduction to Pigeon Science"and can be found on page 59. Quinn did a lot of work with ash red spread. Dr. Hollander is quoted on the same page and this is what he had to say about it " In this combination we have a sex-linked dominant,ash-red ,and an autosomal dominant, spread, both operationally effecting pigment distribution.Well --- that's realy a lot of "SAND-IN THE -GEARS" and the net result is an infinite series of colors from the darkest Mahogany to the lightest Lavenners." Quinn is the one that come up with the 90, 5, 5 all of these birds are spread, 
he did not like the brownish red looking birds  GEORGE*


----------



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Apologies for getting off topic from the original poster.......but I had assumed all ash-reds plus spread were lavender. I realize other modifying genes would effect the appearance of the lavender somewhat but I did not realize the appearance could be affected so extreme and that what I think of as lavender would be a minority of the ash plus spread. George (or Evan or anybody else) do you have a photo of the Mahogony or brownish red birds?? I would like to see them so I could recognize them as ash red + spread and not some other genotype.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

George, Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, I read that ash red birds are split into 3 different categories. But I now see you said " ash red spread"

Chris, I have not heard of these 3 different ash red spread looks, I would think ash red spread is so variable due to many things. Dirty genes and base pattern genes to name a few.

I prefer not to use phenotypical names like mahogany and brownish reds as they add confusion, Instead I see the genes we know are responsible and put the rest down to some other modifying gene, Some which may be found out in later offspring and some which are not even studied and known by humans yet.


----------



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I agree with you Evan! Actually that is why I wanted to see a pic of these Mahogon and brownish reds........so I know they are ash red + spread and not something else. Also, can't imagine them. A pic is worth 100 words...


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Just six years ago I raised all three versions separately but have since disposed of that project. I think that the lavender effect is expressed on barred or barless pattern and the strawberry effect on t-check pattern when no other modifiers are present. The dark, brownish version were dirty and t-check originating from rec. red mated to black, therefore het. rec. red.


----------



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

see this link, find the ash red pics http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/basics.htm


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

dingweding said:


> see this link, find the ash red pics http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/basics.htm


The pic of ash red spread on that site is an example of what it looked like on a barred or barless pattern without other modifiers.


----------



## bigislerollers (Jan 20, 2008)

The 2 birds posted below are full brothers. The top bird, 1570, is what I would consider a "classic" lavender. He does carry blue thats why you have the black tic marks. The second bird, 1506,at first glance looks like an ash red T-check. But through breeding I have concluded that he is a pure ash red (no blue), spread, carrying recessive red and who knows what else.


----------



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

is the first bird should called almond?


----------



## bigislerollers (Jan 20, 2008)

dingweding the bird is definitely not an almond. It might *look *a little like an almond but genitically it's not.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Here is a pic of the darkest spread ash expression that I have ever seen.


----------

