# How s the darkening system work.



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I would like to learn more about this system. How does it work? How and when to start it? etc.

Mark


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Why not learn from the real experts ? Invest in the complete DVD collection of "Secrets of Champions" there is an ad on the back of the December 1st Digest or call toll free 1-800-786-6695 or go online at www.pigeonfilms.com Might as well get the complete collection from Jim Jenner @ $199.95 + S&H

Can't begin to provide such an overview on such a subject in the space here. The Secrets of Champions III YB racing, will cover a host of topics. After you watch that several times, you will have a better idea of who, what, when and why you should consider such a method.


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

does mike ganus still sell his "darkening system for ybs"?if so,it will be for sale on his site.i would get that as well.the system works,that i will guarantee.in 2003 ybs,i flew 8 races with 5 or less pigeons and won 5 races and was very close the other 3 weeks.this was flying in a 15 bird limit race.i was in neutral loft [position,not great/not bad.you must use the whole system for it to work.the widowhood part motivates the pigeons.i used older hens to motivate the young cocks.this was my own little throw in as i had no young hens to use or fly.it worked real well. k-will


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

mark,i lost your phone # when my phone crashed,sorry.ive been trying to get the new loft built,and only having limited time off,ive been living out there working on it.e-mail me your number and when i get a chance i will call you.give me an evening time when i can call.i am off today and sitting at computer because of cold weather preventing me from working on loft at the moment.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Why not learn from the real experts ? Invest in the complete DVD collection of "Secrets of Champions" there is an ad on the back of the December 1st Digest or call toll free 1-800-786-6695 or go online at www.pigeonfilms.com Might as well get the complete collection from Jim Jenner @ $199.95 + S&H
> 
> Can't begin to provide such an overview on such a subject in the space here. The Secrets of Champions III YB racing, will cover a host of topics. After you watch that several times, you will have a better idea of who, what, when and why you should consider such a method.


Warren is right on the money there is way to much info on the darkening system to put here. I will also tell you that the "Secrets of Champions" dvd's are worth every penny. I got them two years ago for christmas/brithday gift from my Grandpa and I have watched them all well over 100 times. If you have 200 dollars to spend on the best films for new and learning racers then this is the one.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I have learned quite a bit on the darkening system so far. Most of what I know I learned from talking to people who use the system. As far as the tapes, they are full of good information, but please do not buy them to learn the darkening system. They give you some basic information on the system, but in no way enough to make it worth the money. Here I really think Warren steered me wrong. I asked for help, not another way to spend money!! If you want to know how this system works get the tapes that are produced on the darkening system.

Mark


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## Young Bird (May 2, 2007)

I am thinking about buying The Bieche Young Bird System DVD. Anybody seen or heard of Bieche young bird system.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

ace in the hole said:


> I have learned quite a bit on the darkening system so far. Most of what I know I learned from talking to people who use the system. As far as the tapes, they are full of good information, but please do not buy them to learn the darkening system. They give you some basic information on the system, but in no way enough to make it worth the money. Here I really think Warren steered me wrong. I asked for help, not another way to spend money!! If you want to know how this system works get the tapes that are produced on the darkening system.
> 
> Mark


Mark,

I am sorry you feel that Warren may have steered you wrong on this. For me, one of the greatest lessons I have learned over the last several years is that sometimes the best advice comes in the form of steering a person towards useful information rather than giving information outright. I think the reason this is sound is that in order for information to be truely useful, a person has to determine if the information is relavent and useful to him or her personally. The best way to do this is to is to do one's own investigation and not rely blindly on information that is provided from someone else.

I learned this initially from Silvio Mattachione in Canada. He has all kinds of experience and success in this sport but insists that new fanciers search out the methods and information on their own. He will point you in the direction but then offer little of his own insights. Its not that he is being secretive of stand offish, he just believes that anything he may provide directly is really irrelevent to someone else as it may very well be impractical or ineffective in another part of the world with another person using it. Once I got over the initial reaction I had to his position, it really began to make sense for me.

I hope you find the information you are looking for and I hope that you take this in the spirit it is given...just my 2 cents.

Dan


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Here are a few sites I googled that might help.

http://www.breakawayloft.com/webpages/darksyst.htm

http://www.allpets.co.za/allpigeons/steven/darkening.htm

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/archive/index.php/t-7449.html

I also am learning about the system. Most do not use it in these parts due to the high desert temps in the summer and the need for air conditioning. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*"Show Me Something New !"*



ace in the hole said:


> I have learned quite a bit on the darkening system so far. Most of what I know I learned from talking to people who use the system. As far as the tapes, they are full of good information, but please do not buy them to learn the darkening system. They give you some basic information on the system, but in no way enough to make it worth the money. Here I really think Warren steered me wrong. I asked for help, not another way to spend money!! If you want to know how this system works get the tapes that are produced on the darkening system.
> 
> Mark


Hello Mark,

I am sorry you feel that hearing some of the world's foremost experts speak about this system, and how they employ it, was not worth the investment that you made. 

I don't think the perfect system has been invented yet, but from my perspective, I have always prefered to obtain my information from someone who has demonstrated by world class performance, that they have indeed mastered the basics of something. 

Concerning how one is best able to learn, a professional educator such as Dan, will have a better grasp on this then me. But, I believe that people learn in different ways. I perhaps mistakenly, recommended a method that worked for me. I want to hear what the best minds in the world have to say concerning a particular subject, and then I do some of my own homework. 

Like Jim Jenner said in the DVD's, where you live on the planet, will determine what adjustments will need to be made, based on the amount of sun light. But everything that one needs to know about the subject, is contained right there in these various interviews with Ad Schaerlaeckens a Champion of Holland, Geoff Kirkland a Champion of England, Frank Tasker another English Champion, Ronnie Williamson a Champion of Ireland as well as some others. These are some of the smartest, most successful and down to earth experts in the pigeon racing game. 

I thought it was important that one first master the basics, from the masters themselves. Rather then recommend very specific information from questionable sourses, which may not have applied to your specific location. I am reminded of my days as an Investment Advisor when dealing with clients. Many times people wanted to heed the advice of a brother-in-law or friend, who had advised a particular investment which was not appropriate at all for my client. I would often ask, what do they do for a living ? And I would get answers like, well he is plumber, or he's a cable TV installer...or whatever. And then I would suggest to the client, that if they had a leaky pipe, or needed their cable lines replaced, then they would certainly be well advised to seek out their advice. But, you don't go to your plumber for health issues, or for investment advice.

Same way when you need advice concerning racing pigeons. You go to some of the best experts on that subject. And that is what I did, I referred you to some of the best experts in the world. I am not an expert on the darkening system, and I have seen a number of tapes, and chapters in books, and articles about the system. And from my perspective, the best information that I found, was on the DVD which you called "basic information". 

A few times in my life, I have had the privilage of learning from some real Grand Masters in their area of expertise. These were different fields, and different areas of knowledge, the one overwhelming theme that came through to me, was this..."Master the Basics". Much like Tiger Woods still works on his golf swing.....every day. The novice on the other hand, is always pleading..."Show me something new ! "..........


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i have seen most of the tapes and listened to most seminars that have been released for sale,and mike ganus darkening systen for ybs is the best hands down.i wouldnt ever say watching tapes by the masters is a waste of time.the thing that separates ganus tape from the rest is he teaches you how to apply the system to your area better than any other i have seen.i do think you need to talk to fanciers about how they applied it themselves.i learned many things doing this that arent on any tape.just my .02

ps im always willing to share what i have learned like others on here are.i dont think that is a bad thing.

note:ganus learned from the people that invented it (hartogs)-attic loft


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Warren, maybe you need to read this again to understand what I said.

I don't yet know how to insert a quote, but so you won't have to scroll up to my last post, it says; 

"As far as the tapes, they are full of good information (did you get that, full of good information ), but please do not buy them to learn the darkening system. They give some basic information on the system, but in no way enough to make it worth the money."


There was not even close to all of the information I needed to start and operate this system. You did not tell me to buy this set of DVDs for any reason other than to learn the darkening system.

I am just trying to tell others not to buy these DVDs just to learn the darkening system. They will end up going to other fanciers to find out just how to use the system. Or buying yet another DVD ( FOR LESS MONEY ) in order to get the rest of the information they need to apply this system themselves.

If you think I am wrong, maybe you should watch the third DVD again. If you knew nothing about the system at all, would you be able to apply it solely on what you learn on that DVD????? NO!!!

Or do you still want to tell others to buy this darkening system set of DVDs.

Mark


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> Warren, maybe you need to read this again to understand what I said.....
> 
> There was not even close to all of the information I needed to start and operate this system. You did not tell me to buy this set of DVDs for any reason other than to learn the darkening system.....
> 
> ...


 I have watched these DVD's numerous times, and every time I watch them, I pick up something new. I did in fact watch that section again today, and I still consider this particular section invaluable. Perhaps you could share what particular details are missing, which would prevent someone from putting this particular system into practice ? Perhaps you have questions that never occured to me.

From my perspective, they provided the how, when and why. The only adjustments which need to be made, is your location on the planet, in terms of sunrise and sunset times, in order to determine the length of daylight. 

Again, I am sorry you were disappointed. Granted, you can purchase a single subject video from Mike Ganus, on his interpretation of the darkening system, for $75 @ http://www.vitakingproducts.com/storefronta.htm, but then there are perhaps fifty other tapes or DVD's he sells @ $50 a pop, and you would need to sort through a whole bunch of them, and still you would not have covered everything. I recommended a product, which I thought was good solid information, regarding the darkening system and much...much..more. 

Perhaps others who have invested in this series of DVD's can provide additional insight, as to how they view the information which was provided on the subject of darkening.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Well I will tell you the basics of the Darkening system and then tell me what you didn't know and then I can kinda build on that, just to save me alot of time. Remember this is a huge very complex system. The reason for this system is to change the hours of sunlight v. night time. This tricks the birds body to think that it is a different season as to then trick the birds to keep the moult off until it is the perfect time for the racers to have their birds moulting. This is done because many fanciers oldest birds that have hatched in the first months of the years will moult at the end of the young bird season thus slowing them down greatly. I have personally not been able to finish the young bird season because there was no hope of winning and it just wasn't worth risking my birds. I personally cut flights and then pull them and this is another way of controlling the moult. Tell me what you know and Ill see what I can tell you.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt,

You own this particular series of DVD's, good for you !! Did you find the section on the darkening system helpful ?


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

No Warren, you couldn't be wrong!!!   If I would have learned everything I needed to know, I would not have had to talk to others fanciers before I felt I could use this system. 

Just to bad I don't live in your area & your club. Then you could really help me out to make yourself look good.

As you told me this is a business for you. You can keep up your business sales job on everyone else, but I'm not buying it. You go run your business.

I'm done with you and this thread!!

Mark


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Matt,
> 
> You own this particular series of DVD's, good for you !! Did you find the section on the darkening system helpful ?


This entire series is, as I said before, worth every penny. These videos have just about everything you need to know about the darkening system, or any other subject matter it covers. I still think you should buy this series, but if you dont want to buy them, i already offered to help you with them, tell me what you need to know. These would be the best thing for him to buy which is why both Mr. Smith and myself both suggested you buy these movies.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> No Warren, you couldn't be wrong!!!   If I would have learned everything I needed to know, I would not have had to talk to others fanciers before I felt I could use this system.
> 
> Just to bad I don't live in your area & your club. Then you could really help me out to make yourself look good.
> 
> ...


 I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished. If you are that upset over the purchase, I am pretty sure that you can return it to Jim Jenner within the first 30 days for a refund. 

As for this being a business, my contributions here are done with out any compensation, and I don't have to be involved in local sport promotion in order to make myself look good. My pigeons have managed to do that in ways that I never could have imagined or dreamed up......


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

you know, this thread has gone beyond ridiculous.i wonder if a few of these people have even flown the darkening system with some of the statements i have read today.first of all,the darkening system is far from being "a huge and complicated system".whats so complicated about giving the birds 8.5 hours of light only to darken the loft the rest of that day?(you better be able to darken the loft at the precise time "everyday")you darken the loft from the time you wean the ybs to (on my system)2 weeks before the first race.by this time you better know the difference in a cock and a hen because now you are gonna have to fly a simple version of double widowhood.does this still sound easy?ok,now you must separate the cocks and hens.(you better be able to train,loft fly,separately or you will mess up)anyway after doing this for a week,youre now going to fly a test race by going thru feeding both sexes,letting them drink their water-then you put the 2 sexes together.i like to do this for 15 minutes.let them go crazy,and they will.box them up and let them sit in the crates overnight.take them down the road the next morning 70 miles and when they come home let them trap together and strut and coo,and then snatch them apart,let them settle down in their separate rooms,and now you are on double widowhood.on the darkening system you dont have to worry about stressing the birds like on the lighting system,because the birds dont moult.(only a body moult partially)fly your yb season.at the end of the season now you must turn around and moult your birds out so you can fly them as yearlings in old birds.now your gonna light the loft until your electric bill goes up a hundred dollars a month stopping this at the precise time.the birds moult out completely(they never all do)and we all live happily ever after.----ive flown this system before i took the hiatus every year since 1993.i was one of the first to fly it,atleast in my area i was the first,and i absolutely crushed the competition until people caught on and realized they had to fly a system to keep up. ace-what warren was trying to tell you is this.....its not just the darkening system,its double widowhood,superior feeding program,extreme health plan,knowing what your seeing if a bird starts to moult,being able to design the room to darken the pigeons,(you need exhaust fans,etc in some areas,must be dark,i dont care what others say.)there is so much to this other than darkening the birds.heck,my wife darkened the birds the first year we were married and i was away working all the time,and it was our best season ever.she did everything from a notepad i wrote out for her.but,i knew what to write.those tapes i have a sneaking suspician would have taught you alot of those things.buy every tape you can get your hands on...talk to every flyer who has used the system "successfully",especially one in your area,and lastly,bro,chill out a little.warren and others are only trying to help you.i will call you when i get the chance.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

ace in the hole said:


> No Warren, you couldn't be wrong!!!   If I would have learned everything I needed to know, I would not have had to talk to others fanciers before I felt I could use this system.
> 
> Just to bad I don't live in your area & your club. Then you could really help me out to make yourself look good.
> 
> ...



Wow! I thought this was supposed to be a *fun* hobby! 

Dan


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

learning said:


> Wow! I thought this was supposed to be a *fun* hobby!
> 
> Dan


well.... depends on what time of the year it is. Oh, and btw, Ace if you dont want our opinions then JUST DON'T ASK FOR THEM!


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

lol.i hope you and others realize my latest reply was sarcasm and meant in fun.matt kind of hit it on the head.while i believe its a simple system,it can be a very difficult system to someone who hasnt learned and mastered alot of the other basics of pigeons.any idiot can darken the pigeons if he can show up at the loft 8.5 hours after daylight every day like clockwork.its knowing all the other aspects of pigeons,(feeding properly,health,knowing cocks from hens,loft design,realizing when a bird is starting to moult,(he could throw the rest of your team into the moult right along with him)there is a million little things that these masters take for granted you already know when they teach you this system.thats why i believe warren steered ace towards those videos.i gather alot of these things i just mentioned are on these tapes?competitive racing pigeons are fun......when you can win.the only way this is gonna happen for the new guy is to take in all the information he can on whatever the system,any aspect of pigeons.if you dont know the basics,how are you gonna fly the darkening system?again,i flew pigeons for 20+ years before i ever flew this system.and i can tell you there are alot of things you have to watch...example...you better have control over your birds where they will come back in the loft.what happens when they are sitting in the tree behind the loft at 3.30 and its time to darken the loft?did you know the fact that 1 or 2 birds going into a moult and they will sometimes can systimatically make every bird in the loft go into the moult?i dont remember the tapes mentioning that one.maybe ganus did. is your loft even set up for darkening?you only need one room to darken,but later you need 2 rooms for the double widowhood for the motivation.it goes on and on.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Wow

Sounds like a club meeting. Ok here is my view on the thread. Whether you want to hear it or not. I can see where ACE is coming from. I have spent money on something that I thought or was told was the answer to my needs, only to find it was general and did not teach me anything. 

As for Warren, I truely think he was trying to help. I also know a bit about past dealing between Warren and Ace. And I do feel that sometimes people want things from each other. Much like conditional love. 

I also respect both Warren and Ace. Warren has taught me much. He has also not alway agreed with me. I respect Ace in the fact that he wants to do things right. I sent Ace birds knowing that he has a passion for the sport and will treat the birds right, test bloodlines for me, and help me know more about my birds. 

There are many in this sport that help unconditionaly. There are also those who want more than they give. 

As for the darkening system, I have learned alot from this thread. Most was from curiousity and research not from a video. What I try to add to thread is what I know, not what I can sell.


Lets Race

Randy


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

while i agree with some of all the view points here,the bottom line with me is i learned much more about all aspects of pigeon flying by spending time with my mentor on the phone or especially in person.i would think along with books and tapes this would be the way to learn.when i first started flying widowhood,i bought every book i could get my hands on and also listened to seminars by people like gunnar guttormsen and mike ganus.i still review these things from time to time today.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*What ever happened to Old School ?*



k-will said:


> while i agree with some of all the view points here,the bottom line with me is i learned much more about all aspects of pigeon flying by spending time with my mentor on the phone or especially in person.i would think along with books and tapes this would be the way to learn.when i first started flying widowhood,i bought every book i could get my hands on and also listened to seminars by people like gunnar guttormsen and mike ganus.i still review these things from time to time today.



Hello K-Will,

Once upon a time, that is how all the trades and even the professions were learned. If I have said it once, I have said it a hundred times, if one ever hopes or aspires to develop some real skills in this game, then one should secure a very talented mentor or two. In my experience however, a really skilled mentor or teacher, does not simply hand out the answers to an exam. The talented teacher/mentor will often cause the student to think a particular issue through. If all a person does is memorize a bunch of facts, then the teacher/mentor has failed, is it then any wonder that his/her student's mind is simply filled with a bunch of mush ? (see the movieaper Chase)

Unfortunately, too many students in our particular art, do not want to develop their thinking skills, in order to someday master the pigeon craft. Many just don't want to do their homework, they simply want their fellow students to give them the answers. 

I once asked one of my mentors what I thought was a simple question, instead of just giving me the darn answer, he handed me this big thick out of print book, and told me to read that. Three months later, he asked how far along I was with the book....I was embarrassed, because I had barely started the book, because there was a lot of basic information "stuff"...and I thought I was far too advanced for that..... A some point, a light bulb did go off in my head.....At the time, I just wanted the key "secrets" and earn my Masters degree.....my wise old Jedi Pigeon Master, knew I had to first complete, and then graduate from 2nd grade first.  

Later in college, I had many professors, many whose names and faces have long been forgotten. There was one...who was considered the meanest son of a gun on campus. So imagine looking forward to a nice weekend and a hot date, and so feeling a little frisky, I ask a question designed to show the class how smart I was concerning the subject of macroeconomics, so when I ask what I thought was a very impressive question... ....instead of getting an answer, he said that's an interesting question....and just raddled off a number of authors and books, and told me to read them and prepare a 1,500 word written report on the subject, complete with footnotes, and present it to the class on Monday.... 

I remember him, because I was one of a very few, who received an A in his course, and to this day, I can explain those concepts and give you some real life examples. I learned, because I invested the time and effort, and it was not free of charge, because someone else took the girl out to the movies, while I toiled over that huge pile of books in the school library !


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i see your point warren.i can remember my mentor not just giving me answers also.i usually had to go dig them up and then return and discuss them.on a different note,i learned 90 percent of what i know about widowhood on my own by reading,listening to seminars,and of course video tapes.then i applied what i had learned by doing it.it took awhile.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another side to the coin is the philosophy of Art Hees. Someone asked him in one of the last articles in RPD why he would give all his secrets out. He told the interview that he did not mind telling whoever wanted to listen to his methods. When asked why he told the interviewer that he was not worried whether they had his methods is because they were lacking what he had. The birds to win. 

I think we all develope our own ideologies and methods. Some think theirs are better than other, some share all they know, some sell what they know. 

I have always been a believer in researching a subject before I give advice. I turn first to articles, web pages and all materials that are cost effective to develope a basic knowledge. I also turn to mentors. I do like those who help me with birds, help me with knowledge, and are just nice people. 

My main mentor is Vern Crawley of Durango Colorado. He does not ask for anything of me except respect and my enjoyment in the sport. He is a genuine gentleman in the sport. He has never asked for a dime. I pay his AU dues and buy his bands but not without and argument from him. He started me in the sport with birds that I could not have dreamed of owning. 

My philosopy has always been one good deed deserves another. 

There is all kinds in bird racing. 

Randy


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

What is a Darkening System??


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

See post #14.


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## Avion (May 28, 2007)

Just read a book called: The Will To PREPARE by Robert Kinney. It gives a pretty good overview of how the Widdowhood system works. This book seems to be aimed to the beginner (which I am) and it is pretty extensive on the different strains of birds, breeders, medication, feed, and mostly the widdowhood system.

PS: Book was a (late) Christmas gift from my daughter. She ordered it and was put on a waiting list until last week.


George


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i own pretty much every book i could ever find on widowhood avion.i have flown that system religiously for over 20 years.i do have bob kinneys book and it has a good bit of good information on widowhood.but,if i was gonna steer someone towards learning widowhood,i would aim them at-the widowhood year by dave allen,practical widowhood by mark gordon which is the bible for widowhood.then i would have them listen to a seminar tape i own by gunnar guttormsen who is very highly regarded as the best or one of the best widowhood flyers ever in the usa.another good series is roy dycks 2 books on widowhood.i still say you can read all you want and watch all you want,but at some point you need a mentor if possible and you have to dive in to learn these systems.as warren said earlier,you can have all the book-knowledge in the world,but you have to understand that knowledge and be able to use it.

note:in 20 years or more of widowhood teams i have seen teams do different things i never saw in any book and you probably wont see until you dive in and fly the system.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Avion

Bob Kinney was quite the pigeon man. He wrote many articles. He has added a great foundation to my loft from offspring of his birds. In fact I am on my way to pick up another half Bob Kinney bird tomorrow. He was a great loss to the sport. Your book is now an instant classic with his recent passing. 

Randy


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