# Conformation, Racing Question



## LowellsGunDogs (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm new to the sport of Racing Homers, but not new to the breeding of animals. I have a life long history of breeding performance animal, Birddogs, bear hounds, and in my youthfull years, I bred and raised gamecocks. As a profession I'm a birddog trainer, and licensed california hunting guide for uplandbirds and bears. So I know dogs and chickens, and what it takes to get it done, with these other animal to achieve success in, from Breeding, Raising, Conditioning, Training, and actual Performing.

So I'm now on a new side journey in the world of trying to learn more about animals and what make them tick, with Racing Homers. I've learned over the years to ask lots of questions, then sit back and listen to everyones opinions then try to apply what I thinks make most sence, so all that said, " What's your opinions on breeding when it comes to the ideas of 1) form follows function or 2) function follows form ?

In Racing pigeons what's considered good conformation and bad conformation ? If you have pictures to explain that would help.

Thanks

Larry Lowell


----------



## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Boy, thats hard to explain via computer. I wish you could hold a few of my birds and I could show you what *I* like and dislike.


----------



## LowellsGunDogs (Dec 18, 2010)

Southtown

I know it's tough. I'm asking because you hear people talk about conformation, but to people new what's good and what's bad ? You look at some birds and they look like penguins, and others look real what I'd call a balanced sporty look, and then others have long necks and long legs, some stand tall some are squity, etc... Etc... Etc...


----------



## LowellsGunDogs (Dec 18, 2010)

It seems to me that form follows function, basically good conformation or not the competition and the ability to win will dictate form.


----------



## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Problem is, you can take 10 photos of the same bird and get 10 different postures.

I like a bird that is not too big and not too small, a bright clear eye that dialates quickly when exposed to light, good balance (not too heavy in the front or back), I like a bird that feels powerful and not too soft, I like the neck not too long, soft silky feathers, one pin tail. I like a nice longer wing with wing tips not too pointy and not too rounded. I like a birds tail to point towards the ground when I hold it.

This is what I like but these birds will suprise you


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

LowellsGunDogs said:


> It seems to me that form follows function, basically good conformation or not the competition and the ability to win will dictate form.


Some separate form from conformation. Form being the birds are in shape to fly, conformation on physical and mental traits. Many preach conformation, but never get their birds prepared to win, ie too fat, bad feed mix, not enough muscle. Birds win in all shapes and colors. Homing ability also needs to be factored in. In my opinion you put birds in your loft that have conformation that has won, ie a family of birds that wins. It then is up to you to get them into form. It is a lot easier to own winning birds than to win with them. Form can also involve giving yourself an advantage in the molt, light, and training. Where I would go for birds is from the guy that wins in many different conditions and wins when others fly his birds. This eliminates some of the form from the function and points back at the bird itself. One loft races are like science fair projects, they eliminate all the variables except the most important. How good is the bird. This could also give you two levels of selection. Where the birds stack up to others birds and where the stack up in your colony. The goal is to find the top birds from both. A can of beans will not make farts unless you eat them first.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

LowellsGunDogs said:


> I'm new to the sport of Racing Homers, but not new to the breeding of animals. I have a life long history of breeding performance animal, Birddogs, bear hounds, and in my youthfull years, I bred and raised gamecocks. As a profession I'm a birddog trainer, and licensed california hunting guide for uplandbirds and bears. So I know dogs and chickens, and what it takes to get it done, with these other animal to achieve success in, from Breeding, Raising, Conditioning, Training, and actual Performing.
> 
> So I'm now on a new side journey in the world of trying to learn more about animals and what make them tick, with Racing Homers. I've learned over the years to ask lots of questions, then sit back and listen to everyones opinions then try to apply what I thinks make most sence, so all that said, " What's your opinions on breeding when it comes to the ideas of 1) form follows function or 2) function follows form ?
> 
> ...


The winner in my opinion is the bird that has both function and form. Like asking the egg question. Like the old bell curve, both good birds and bad birds can show in the middle of the curve. Bad birds in good form, good birds in bad form. Bad birds can never show at the top of the curve. Good birds will if given the right form. So bad birds are easy to eliminate form the system. If you only obtain good birds and get them in good form then the bell curve shifts right to the better. Pull the cream off, then start over again. In other words you must have form to identify function and function for form to show. Like a left and right foot. You need both to walk. Otherwise its hopping.


----------



## LowellsGunDogs (Dec 18, 2010)

Some people believe in animals that if you have the right conformation then performance will follow. 

I like correct confirmation but on performance animals I think natural ability, and genetic ability though desire is what produces the best. I've always believed environment plays over 50% of being successful.

I've also seen people breed an animal to a confirmation standard and screw everything up. Competition and mother nature takes care of most issues if you let it.

But I hear people preach conformation first alot, that's why I asked the questions. I don't get how experts can see a winner, you might have a decent guess but ??? If all the experts that can read a pigeon are so good why aren't they winning all everything ? You cant read heart and natural ability, seems to me, you have to test it. But then what do I know, I'm new to this game.


----------



## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Hard to tell!! Everybody has it's own likes and dislike,me personally like smaller apple bodied birds, it doesn't matter what bloodlines,eyesign,tail, wing conformation the test basket or racing result will tell if their worth to feed or not....


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If Conformation means Shape,there are all kinds of shaped racing pigeons that win races....We can use our eyes & hands to help us "keep" the right birds..But the basket is the real story...What I like,might not be what you like in a pigeon...I went to a loft in Pittsburgh many years ago...The birds were ugly dark checkers..They looked like birds from under the bridge....But the man had alot of wins from 400 to 600 miles with them...Not my type of "Looking" pigeons..But the results I would love to have...
Now,here is what I want to SEE in a pigeon....Short neck,somewhat long cast if possible,short legs,large head,large wattle,one or 1 1/2 pin tail,thin/narrow slightly rounded primary flights,bright eyes,wing tips as close to the end of a long tail as possible....
Now,this is what I want to FEEL with my hands....Strong and a little long keel,strong vent that is close to the keel bone,as much muscle as possible,soft feathers,a large mouth with a small oval windwipe,with a closed slit in the upper part of the mouth,and last but not least,I want the bird to fight me when I pull on his/her beak....Alamo


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I like a balance looking bird.
I like a bird that looks like it can do the job.
I like a bird that stands like 45 degrees or almost standing up.
I like a bird whose feathers feel thick and smooth.
I like a bird that feels buoyant.
I like a supple muscle like a feel when you press a balloon.
I like a bird with rich looking eye.
I like a bird with wings that seem to fit the race course.
I like a bird that is smart(can't see that physically though).
I like a bird with a white rump (it helps them evade falcons).
I like a bird with one-pin tail(viewed from the top it looks like one tail or stack cards) but I don't require it.
I like a bird that has attitude (will fight if he/she has too).
I like a bird that don't necessarily gives up.
I like others more, but that is good enough for now.

So I like form and function plus brain/heart.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LowellsGunDogs said:


> Some people believe in animals that if you have the right conformation then performance will follow.
> 
> I like correct confirmation but on performance animals I think natural ability, and genetic ability though desire is what produces the best. I've always believed environment plays over 50% of being successful.
> 
> ...



The truth of the matter is IMHO, is that 99.8% of all fanciers can not tell the difference between something exceptional or something very typical, until after the race or breeding results are in. If one could look at say a 30 day old YB and say this one is exceptional and this one is just a pigeon, then that person would be a millionaire, cause it would be simple matter then of figuring out which birds to send to important racing events. There may be a small handful of fanciers in the world that could pick the winning bird out of a crate, before the event, but I sadly, am not one of them. The great Ludo Claessen was such a fancier, and he did retire a millionaire because of his birds. 

I think your statement *"Competition and mother nature takes care of most issues if you let it."* means you have more common sense then most fanciers, and I suspect you will do better then what most fanciers in your area would suspect. Again IMHO, I suspect fanceirs are looking at things that they think, are the traits that a good performance pigeon has....but along the way, personal biases always seem to get in the way, and without knowing it, they are selecting for traits that may only make a "pretty bird" in a pigeon show.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well put Warren, I have often thought of getting some Ludo birds. The only problrm I have with doing that is out of all the birds on the auction sites I don't think Mr. Claessen would approve of any of them.I don't think any body would pair up bird like he would, so they really are not Ludo birds any more. JMO
Dave


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Crazy Pete said:


> Well put Warren, I have often thought of getting some Ludo birds. The only problrm I have with doing that is out of all the birds on the auction sites I don't think Mr. Claessen would approve of any of them.I don't think any body would pair up bird like he would, so they really are not Ludo birds any more. JMO
> Dave


Well Dave,

You make an interesting point. Many if not most of the pigeons sold today as this strain or that strain, are often generations removed from the orginal breeder. In some of the more extreme cases, decades and many breeders have left their imprint on birds carrying the name of a fancier long dead. 

That is one of the reasons why I acquired some of my Ludo birds directly from the founder of the strain, and had him select some birds which in his view, would go well together. So, I at least feel comfortable, that the offspring produced, are typical of the offspring the Master would have produced himself. For me, that was simply the starting point, because as I select from among the offspring and then pair them myself, they really are acquiring the Smith name at that point, because at that stage, good, bad, or indifferent, I am now the designer of the family line, and placing my imprint on these creations.

I wouldn't be all that concerned with the name or strain attached to the pigeons you might acquire. I think thee most important thing, first, and foremost, is they are "good" healthy specimins to begin with. If you are fortunate enough to acquire or breed a few exceptional pigeons, then you can build a whole family around those few foundation breeders.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The only bad conformation to me, is the kind that come with bad racers.


----------

