# Has anyone used Roudybush Squab Formula?



## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

I used this recently for a group of pigeons that I was raising from hatch.

I had pretty atrocious results. I've used roudybush products before with all sorts of birds, but his stuff seemed really awful. I'm honestly not convinced that they even sent my the right formula. It does kind of resemble and taste like their loriket nectar, but its been years since I've used that to really remember what it is like.

The five chicks I had, though they weren't dying, they barely growing. One of them even lost a good bit of weight.

I switched them to a boiled egg yolk based diet that some friends at zoos have used and all my chick started putting on weight much better. 

The next three chicks that hatched were on the egg yolk diet from the start, and did much better.

Sadly, all but one of my chicks that was started on the roudybush squab died. The remaining chick is over a month old and is only 100 grams and still without feathers.

The chicks raised on the boiled egg yolk diet have done much better, still not as good as birds that were parent fed for the first week though, so I still have some fine tuning of the formula to do. I have seen the macmilk recipie, and I think I'll try something more like that next time. I really like the digestive enzyme and probiotic suggestions with that recipe.

So have any of you guys used the roudybush squab formula? What kind of results did you have? Any other thoughts about raising pigeons from day 1?
I've had people suggest using kaytee exact exclusively but I can't picture that being an adequate crop milk replacement. Has anybody attempted that during the first few days? I love using kaytee with pellets or seeds when they are a bit older, but it seems too low in protein for the first few days.

With pigeons that are five or so days old, I've never had any problems. To be clear, I'm really asking about thoughts on those first few days.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

why are you raising pigeons from day 1?, I really do not think there is an 100% replacement for the real thing, we just use what we can... mac milk sounds good as well as the exact which many use here in the US with good results. I have wonderd about the roudybush and they make it seem like a good formula...? but I have not used it. but these are used on orphans that needed to be saved otherwise it is best to let the pigeons do it as they give the immunites to their young as well as all the other good things they need.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> why are you raising pigeons from day 1?, I really do not think there is an 100% replacement for the real thing, we just use what we can... mac milk sounds good as well as the exact which many use here in the US with good results. I have wonderd about the roudybush and they make it seem like a good formula...? but I have not used it. but these are used on orphans that needed to be saved otherwise it is best to let the pigeons do it as they give the immunites to their young as well as all the other good things they need.


I agree. I did raise 2 babies that were about 2 days old on Kay tee formula, and had very good results. Today they are strong and healthy.


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> why are you raising pigeons from day 1?


For science!

But seriously, for an experiment on imprinting. Though I am confident that there really isn't going to be any difference in a pigeon that has be raised exclusively by humans and a pigeon that has been raised by its parents for a week, the scientific community is going to give me a hard time and claim "dual imprinting" when it comes time to publish. I only needed a few that have never seen another pigeon, and it looks like I'll have that.

Also, I've worked with a lot of exotics at zoos, so its not bad practice. But I didn't expect to have this much trouble. None of the chicks died in the first two weeks, but the roudybush chicks were seriously messed up. I just want to know if the stuff is just that bad, or if I just got a bad batch. I really think it could have been a factory mix up. It really resembles lorikeet nectar.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Aww, poor things. But evidently this was a problem with the food :/.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

cvarnon said:


> just want to know if the stuff is just that bad, or if I just got a bad batch. I really think it could have been a factory mix up. It really resembles lorikeet nectar.


You can take the stuff back to the store and compare it with another lot to make sure there wasn't any mix up or expired product


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

ive heard good things about roudy bush but have never used it, i pretty much stick with exact more for financial reasons, don't think i will be switching any time soon.
i think there will be a BIG difference in piji's or any kind of dove raised by humans or parents, they imprint so heavily more so than any other baby birds i raise, and i raise a lot of them ( around 100) and many different species a year,
roudy bush does make a lorikeet nectar is it possible that's what it was??


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

altgirl35 said:


> i think there will be a BIG difference in piji's or any kind of dove raised by humans or parents, they imprint so heavily more so than any other baby birds i raise


I'm trying to say, that I don't think it makes a difference if you raise them from day 1 or day 10, so long as you keep them away from other birds.



sreeshs said:


> You can take the stuff back to the store and compare it with another lot to make sure there wasn't any mix up or expired product


I ordered it directly. I'm trying to contact the company.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

cvarnon said:


> For science!
> 
> But seriously, for an experiment on imprinting. Though I am confident that there really isn't going to be any difference in a pigeon that has be raised exclusively by humans and a pigeon that has been raised by its parents for a week, the scientific community is going to give me a hard time and claim "dual imprinting" when it comes time to publish. I only needed a few that have never seen another pigeon, and it looks like I'll have that.
> 
> Also, I've worked with a lot of exotics at zoos, so its not bad practice. But I didn't expect to have this much trouble. None of the chicks died in the first two weeks, but the roudybush chicks were seriously messed up. I just want to know if the stuff is just that bad, or if I just got a bad batch. I really think it could have been a factory mix up. It really resembles lorikeet nectar.


it is not a good experiment to bring young into this world and hope they make it... pigeons and doves are hard babies to raise from day one, you should use rescues that still need to be fed and document that. I totally disagree with what you are doing, and yes you did get the wrong food, poor babies....


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Because pigeons feed their babies crop milk, handfeeding them from day one denies those babies parental antibodies. This means that these birds are automatically immune stressed.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, it was not his fault he got the wrong food. He bought the right one but they mixed them up apparently. The other birds seem to be fine...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> Well, it was not his fault he got the wrong food. He bought the right one but they mixed them up apparently. The other birds seem to be fine...


It doesn't matter what food he got. What Terri is pointing out is that giving them ANY food from day one harms them in that they aren't getting the parents pigeon milk, which would of course make much stronger babies and help to build up their immune system. In the long long run, they would be much stronger and healthier. Good point.


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

I have heard that about crop milk, but there wasn't much of a way around that.
I have also heard there is a bit of debate on the matter of the antibodies. It sounds completely reasonable to me, but do you have something to cite on that? I'm not questioning you, I would just like some more information. If someone knows a scientific paper I could cite that would be wonderful. (Actualy I just found a decent one. Just wasn't searching in the right journals.)

Also, I'm cleaning cages right now, I'm going to post some pictures a bit latter, my one surviving roudybush chick is depressing.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> It doesn't matter what food he got. What Terri is pointing out is that giving them ANY food from day one harms them in that they aren't getting the parents pigeon milk, which would of course make much stronger babies and help to build up their immune system. In the long long run, they would be much stronger and healthier. Good point.


I actually read spirit wing's post wrong, I was answering that one.
Sorry, sometimes I'm not clear :x


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here are some links to info. on the antibodies in crop milk

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j7u210u32103p88k/ 


http://www.pigeontv.com/public/102.cfm
The answer must lie in the immune system which is rather immature in the young pigeon. Antibodies against various microbes with which the breeding pigeon was confronted are deposited in the egg yolk and used by the developing youngster. Antibodies also pass via the crop milk to the young pigeon after it has hatched , similar to the way antibodies in colostrum are transferred to new-born mammals.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pawbla said:


> I actually read spirit wing's post wrong, I was answering that one.
> Sorry, sometimes I'm not clear :x


Thanks for clarifying Pawbla.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Just too risky to try handfeeding so early....so many things could have gone wrong.

.....IMHO, would it _really_ have made them any LESS imprinted on a human caregiver had you started, say...on Day 5 ?

I actually sorta hope you don't try this again starting from hatchlings...regardless of the brand of food......


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

and for researchs sake, i think it's how they are raised and the individuals themselves that makes a difference.
if they are raised with others and quickly tube fed and exposed to people very minimally sometimes they will not end up liking me once weaned, but then sometimes they do.
raising one alone almost always makes a baby pigeon think they are a little person instead of a bird


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Here are some links to info. on the antibodies in crop milk
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/j7u210u32103p88k/
> 
> ...


good find, with the internet all you have to do a bit of digging... it seems weird someone who is into experimenting with live birds would of not known where to find this info.... Like I said before, it is just wrong to take birds away from parent birds just for experimentation.


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

Look, I understand all your concerns. And they aren't bad ones. I felt terrible that my chicks weren't doing well, thats why I changed diet. Let me tell you a bit more about what I am doing to try and put some of you at ease.

First of all, I do not pretend to know everything. Thats why I am here asking questions. I do appreciate all the input. My department is behavioral department, most of them do research with humans. I don't have an ornithology expert to help me out.
This experiment is under veterinary supervision from an avian specialist. He does a lot of rehab work in addition to pet work, and even raises his own pigeons.
He thought that raising from eggs would be better, because I can avoid any diseases passed to the offspring by the parents, canker for example. 
This was especially of concern last year when one of my chicks that I got at 10 days died with out symptom two weeks later. I spent 300 dollars on a necropsy, sadly the lab lost the results. The guy that performed the necropsy said it looked like histomonaisis (called black head in fowl) a disease that is acquired from the environment or from the parent. That breeder has since had a lot of birds die off. My vet, a paid expert thought that raising from day one was much better, so I listened to him.

The experiment isn't just to satisfy curiosity. I have worked in a few zoos, and sadly reproduction is a big issue. Particularly with imprinted birds. Zoos give up on imprinted birds and don't even try to get them to breed or lead an otherwise normal life. I have seen too many imprinted birds in an exhibit by them selves. Other times they are given a mate, and live with it, but prefer to attempt to mate with the keepers. All the scientific literature that I have seen states that imprinting is completely irreversible. I am pretty confident that is not the case. How many of you guys have had an imprinted bird that was in love with a person, go back and form bonds with birds again? It happens, but things are completely misunderstood by the scientific community.

The procedure I am working on, is to take imprinted birds that are completely isolated from other birds, and teach them to prefer humans over birds after they reach sexual maturity and display sexual behaviors towards humans. Subjects for my pilot procedure are an imprinted dove and a house sparrow. And guess what? I've got the dove to be in love with the house sparrow. I'm at the stage now where I just need to teach him not to love me anymore. I'm using a house sparrow here, because I feel like if I can teach a bird to "act imprinted" to a very different species, then members of the same species won't be much of a problem.
What I would like to do later, is work with some of the imprinted birds I have worked with in zoos and get them back on the right track. I am doing this for the sake of conservation. Some of these birds I have worked with cost thousands of dollars and are genetically valuable members of an endangered species. If we can breed these animals with some success, then we aren't doing a good job of conservation. Imprinting is just one of the issues here.

I do agree, that the bird's behavior will not be different if I get them at 1 day or 10 days. One of my birds was obtained at 20 days and is perfectly imprinted. I have said this a few times before. However, when it comes time to publish, if I only use birds that I have obtained at an older age, some one is going to claim that the birds are "dual imprinted" and that my research is completely irrelevant. If I can't publish, or at least get by without that criticism, then its going to be difficult to change any opinions about what to do with these birds at zoos. So I do need a few of my birds to be hand raised from day one. If I had my own breeders, I could get them a little older, right before the eyes open. But my birds aren't old enough yet to provide me with that luxury. Assuming all my birds make it to sexual maturity, I will have 4 birds obtained at older ages, and 3 birds raised from eggs. That is plenty for me. Once I do this experiment, I really don't think anyone is going to give me much of an argument about dual imprinting later.

I did not expect to have this much of a problem with the chicks, but it really seems that I just got a bad batch of food. The birds are weight at least once a day, so I know when somethings up. Its not like I did this haphazardly. And note the veterinary advice. Its not like I did this without thinking about. Again, I didn't have any problems with birds that were started on a different diet. Also, on the note of the food. You really can't get mad at me for that. If I got a bad batch of food for adult birds that were raising chicks, its likely the same thing would have happened.


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

On the left is of one of my chicks that was on kaytee+egg yolk from day 1. It is still a little bit behind a parent raised chick on feathering. It is 17 days and 254 grams. No problems with this chick.

On the right is the last remaining roudybush chick.
42 days old and 138 grams.
Pigeons are fully developed at 30 days, at 300+ grams.
He was on the bad roudybush formula for 9 days. Never has recovered from that. Switched to kaytee+egg yolk. It is energetic and vigorous, and is continually growing, but it has had a slew of problems. I can't say if it is going to make it or not, or how messed up it is going to be as an adult because of that bad formula.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Poor chick. What are you going to do with the birds when you are done?
That's an interesting research. It could help us rehabbers too.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

very very interesting research and i would love to see what u come up with.
wildlife rehabilitators opinions vary on that, but we all know that raising a single bird is a big mistake, and if we release them we are sending a dud out into the wild they may live their lives but will probably never mate or land on a person be misunderstood and get killed 
zoo's should take some lessons from rehabbers on how to raise babies if it's impossible for the parents to raise them.
i'll tell you this pigeons, doves and waterfowl are the hardest ones to prevent imprinting and should never ever be raised alone, they will almost never wild up


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

one other thing i would like to add is i think there is a recipe for crop milk in the nwra principles of wildlife to be fed to orphan doves and pigeons for the first few days, i'll see if i can find it


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I've never raised waterfowl, but my pigeons were really tame. My dove, on the other hand, was still completely wild.

MacMilk recipe:
MacMilk: Crop Milk Substitution Recipe
1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 hard-boiled egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
1⁄4 teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
247.6 mg calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
** For birds 1~3 days old, add digestive enzymes (see notes)
Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Allow the digestive enzymes to work on the food for 1⁄2 hour before using at room temperature. Warm it to wrist temperature before feeding.
Note: because this mixture offers more calories and is more bioavailable than other diets, you may require less than you are used to feeding. Weigh the bird, calculate its energy requirements and feed accordingly.
NOTES
Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too 'strong' for the correction required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days -.
Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a few days, so don' t make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one sesame seed.
Enzymes: Hatchling doves do not have high enough levels of proteases and other enzymes to digest foods well. Although crop milk is high in protein, as described earlier in this section, some of the protein is in the form of 'free amino acids'- thus, already broken down. This is one of the reasons that raising hatchling doves has been very difficult in the past. We can break down the protein in the crop milk substitution by adding digestive enzymes.
Birds 1~3 days old: digestive enzymes must be added to all hatchling diets, and can be discontinued after day three, when the bird's own digestive enzymes are at higher levels. Pancrezyme can be purchased from a veterinary clinic. Enzymes from the health food store probably will not be effective. Because enzymes are required for hatchling diets and in emaciation protocol, they are good to have on hand.
Method: You will require 1/8 teaspoon of enzymes for one recipe of MacMilk. Mix the enzymes with the food 30 minutes before feeding, to allow the enzymes to work on the food. Do not mix enzymes with the day's ration of food - only with what will be used in the next feeding. Otherwise, the diet will spoil. You will have to estimate how much of a recipe of MacMilk you require per feeding based on the number of hatchlings you have to feed.
Then, add the enzymes as needed; for example, if you will be using 1/8th recipe of MacMilk, use a small pinch of enzymes (1/8th the amount of what is required for the whole recipe). To do this, take the amount of food that you'll need for the next feeding and mix it with the enzymes. Let the food sit for 30 minutes before feeding, so that the enzymes can work on the food.
Columbids Day Four and Later: Discontinue the addition of enzymes to MacMilk.
Some species begin to mix crop milk with regurgitated (partially digested) seeds or grains sooner than others. Generally, the rule of thumb might be to use crop milk substitution for at least the first week of life, and begin to gradually mix in other foods over a period of two weeks. During the first days of new additions, the baby bird will not yet be digesting all the carbohydrates, and the high-protein food is still needed for growth and feathering, thus a gradual changeover is necessary. Good choices might be Exact® with
gradual additions of foods like mixed-cereal pabulum with an added tablespoon of strained baby food corn.
Feeding technique: To feed older nestling doves, one method allows the baby to 'root' . Pull up formula in a large feeding syringe and then remove the plunger. Across the wide opening of the syringe (not the tip), stretch a piece of vet wrap or rubber dam (used by dentists) that has a hole to accommodate the bill. Secure well with a rubber band.
The bird will thrust its bill into the opening and 'drink' much as it does from its parent. These methods can be messy until you acquire a technique; wipe up any formula on the baby with a Q-tip dipped in warm water.
Some rehabbers prefer to feed nestling doves and pigeons with a tube and syringe. This does take practice; the tube must slide down the side of the throat without getting any fluid into the tracheal opening. Instructions for tube feeding can be found in the fluid therapy section of this manual. As a rehabilitator's tube-feeding skills develop, the amount of formula the doves take at various ages follows a pattern. Although a rehabilitator may attempt to feed quickly at the height of baby season, haste can have serious consequences. Always go slowly when emptying the contents of the syringe into the bird's crop, especially with newly presented birds. Every so often a dove will have a smaller crop capacity than normal and the excess formula can aspirate the bird.
When using a tube and syringe to feed or hydrate any bird, make sure the tubing is soft and flexible. Medical grade tubing is expensive but worth every penny to prevent harm to delicate tissue in the throat and crop.
To prevent impaction, It is very important that the crop be allowed to fully empty before it is filled again. The crop is very noticeable as a sort of pouch that overlays the breastbone. After feeding, the crop should not be hard to the touch. Feed only enough to fill the crop 3⁄4 full – this feels similar to a hot water bottle that is 3⁄4 full.
An impacted crop results when the crop becomes too full for the normal passage of food.
Since doves have larger crops than gaping birds, they do not have to be fed as often. The rule of thumb for doves in their first week of life would be 4 feedings per day, and as the bird moves towards weaning, going to 3 feedings per day and gradually weaning to 2.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Second option - MacMilk©: Crop Milk Substitution Recipe
1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 raw egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
1/4 teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
0.62 g calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
2 drops fish body (omega-3; not cod liver) oil
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Keep the diet in the fridge, taking out and warming only as much as you need for one feeding.

NOTES
For birds 1~3 days old:
It may be necessary to dilute the mix a little more, particularly if they are not being kept at high humidity. It’s essential to add a small amount of feces from a healthy adult nonspecific; the younger the bird, the more urgent this is. Add it to two feedings per day.
As soon as it’s added, consider the food contaminated; discard any leftovers and clean all implements thoroughly. No digestive enzymes need be added to this mix.
In nature, young columbids are fed small amounts often, by their parents. The ‘nursing’ bouts are long in duration. They should NOT be tube-fed, but instead need to ‘work’ for their food by sucking. The process is very reminiscent of mammals suckling, and their chances of survival are much higher if they are fed in this natural manner.
At the end of the first week post-hatch, gradually add a highly digestible grain (be sure that it contains the proper amount of calcium and vitamins) to the food. It must be fully hydrated!
E.g., if you’re adding baby cereal or Exact, make a ‘cereal soup’ with water (at least 2 parts water to 1 part cereal/Exact by weight) before adding it to the MMM. Add only a very small amount for the first couple of days, and then at a rate (e.g., 10% per day) that will make the food mostly grain by the end of 15-20 days. Fledglings must be supplemented with hand feedings for as long as they beg (this can be up to 6 weeks or so), even if they are also eating on their own. Weigh them regularly until they’re completely weaned. A high-quality (companion/exotic) finch seed mix is a good choice for self-feeding. Be sure that they have ‘pigeon grit’ (a multimineral grit) and oyster shell grit available ad lib.
Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too potent for what is required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days. Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a few days, so don't make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one or two sesame
seeds.


These are two different recipes for crop milk substitution. I think you will know most of the "procedure", I included it just in case you were using a different method and wanted to try another one.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

that's it pawbla thanx for finding it for me


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

cvarnon said:


> I have heard that about crop milk, but there wasn't much of a way around that....my one surviving roudybush chick is depressing.


You might want to give several days of probiotics when you feed this baby. This will help populate the gut with good bacteria and aid in digestion.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TerriB said:


> You might want to give several days of probiotics when you feed this baby. This will help populate the gut with good bacteria and aid in digestion.


Good idea. They would need that.


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## cvarnon (Mar 8, 2010)

altgirl35 said:


> i'll tell you this pigeons, doves and waterfowl are the hardest ones to prevent imprinting and should never ever be raised alone, they will almost never wild up


Thats really interesting that you said that. I have heard from other people that those are the birds that are most likely to adapt and "wild up."

Thats whats really interesting (and frustrating) about this to me. The people that are experience with this stuff have a lot of information, but the collective knowledge has not really been pooled together well in an official place.


On the note of rehabing, I do have one article out of probably 50 on imprinting that I have read so far (and there are many more) that actually mentions something about imprinting being related to how the birds are raised, not who raises them.
Four groups of doves were raised.
Group 1 was raised by the parents and housed with other birds
Group 2 was raised by the parents, then each bird was isolated from other birds.
Group 3 was raised by humans and house with other birds.
Group 4 was raised by humans, then each bird was isolated from other birds.
At about 9 months old mate selection tests were performed.
Who the birds lived with after they were raised was a pretty big factor.
I don't remember how the numbers fell out exactly. But it seems like who the birds lived with after they were raised was a bigger factor that who raised them.
If anyone wants the specifics, I can send the article.

I agree, zoos really should be doing things differently. But it is kind of hard when you have so many constraints about exhibits and where to put the birds.



TerriB said:


> You might want to give several days of probiotics when you feed this baby. This will help populate the gut with good bacteria and aid in digestion.


After seeing the macmilk recipie a few weeks ago, I did just that.
However, I just found another article that states that kaytee exact actually has digestive enzymes and probiotics in it already. Wonderful stuff that is.
Ive got a useful few articles now, I'll post them in another thread.


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## russ973 (Apr 15, 2012)

*boiled egg yolk based diet*



cvarnon said:


> I used this recently for a group of pigeons that I was raising from hatch.
> 
> 
> CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS IN A boiled egg yolk based diet
> ...



CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS IN A boiled egg yolk based diet


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## russ973 (Apr 15, 2012)

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS IN A boiled egg yolk based diet


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