# Is this baby gonna be healthy?



## Fever (May 28, 2007)

Hello! I just have some questions about the health of a baby pigeon I've been watching, and generally the state of health of feral pigeons I'm starting to become intrigued with. I live in an apartment in a very old building, and I have (or had) a covered balcony that has a massive pigeon colony. I've given up on trying to keep them out, and have sealed the door and let them take over. My landlord was supposed to clean it and put some netting up to keep them out when I moved in a year ago, but he never bothered to, and now there's about six inches of poop out there. That's kinda what concerns me.

I'm sorry this is so gross, but here it is: There are so many pigeons out there that I guess nesting space is getting tight, because some of them are nesting in the droppings. I can only see one nest well out of my window, and there's a little guy out there about a week old hopping around in all that stuff. He's growing crazily fast, so he must be doing ok for now at least, but I notice he breathes very visibly and quickly.

Do you think he (or she?) is going to be alright growing up in that? Or is this a bad overpopulation scenario that I should do something (or getying my landlord to do something) about? I'm scared to open the door because of the potential health risk, but I'm fine giving them the balcony as long as they are healthy and don't mind... um, the poop. Ick.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Hi and welcome to Pigeon-Talk.
Sounds like you have a tough situation there. I can't advise on the bird's health but others will be along soon to offer advice. 
The problem with notifying your landlord is that s/he will probably take a "scorched earth" approach and have the birds exterminated, however, you do need to get some sanitation control back in there because sooner or later, all that poop and feather and perhaps even dead birds will attract vermin that you really don't want. 
First off, how big is this balcony and how many birds are living there. That will determine the scope of the problem and whether this is something that you can take care of yourself or if you might need to do a "Tom Sawyer" and recruit a few friends for a fun afternoon of pigeon-depooping  
If you want to investigate, then at a minimum, tie something disposable around your shoes, get a mask (you can probably get away with the ones they sell at home improvement stores (Home Depot, Lowes etc), put something over your head (if the potential of doo falling from the sky exists or if birds flying around your head bothers you), and check it out. Have a trash can next to the patio door so you can put everything in it as you step back in. (I work in a lab, so these are just normal precautions for me, but probably overkill for this job). 
If it is as bad as you say, then my advice would be to get some really old clothes, a mask, head coverings, and tyvek booties (or maybe some grocery bags around your shoes), glove up, and wade out there to see exactly how deep the piles are and then start to clean. If you really want to do it right, get and use some disposable Tyvek suits. It's not so much what you might pick up from the birds, it's more what you might get from the vermin that may also be living there.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Fever said:


> Hello! I just have some questions about the health of a baby pigeon I've been watching, and generally the state of health of feral pigeons I'm starting to become intrigued with. I live in an apartment in a very old building, and I have (or had) a covered balcony that has a massive pigeon colony. I've given up on trying to keep them out, and have sealed the door and let them take over. My landlord was supposed to clean it and put some netting up to keep them out when I moved in a year ago, but he never bothered to, and now there's about six inches of poop out there. That's kinda what concerns me.
> 
> I'm sorry this is so gross, but here it is: There are so many pigeons out there that I guess nesting space is getting tight, because some of them are nesting in the droppings. I can only see one nest well out of my window, and there's a little guy out there about a week old hopping around in all that stuff. He's growing crazily fast, so he must be doing ok for now at least, but I notice he breathes very visibly and quickly.
> 
> Do you think he (or she?) is going to be alright growing up in that? Or is this a bad overpopulation scenario that I should do something (or getying my landlord to do something) about? I'm scared to open the door because of the potential health risk, but I'm fine giving them the balcony as long as they are healthy and don't mind... um, the poop. Ick.



No way to tell for certain, though I've seen many ferals make nests out of their own poop and the babies grow to be normal healthy adults. What 
I don't think is right is for your landlord not to deal w/this situation, though.
There's no reason why you should have to share your rental w/a pre-existing
pigeon flock. And, btw, I love them and feed them shamelessly.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you follow Flitsnowzooms suggestions and clean it yourself, you can wet it
down in advance to keep the dust down, I usually spray a solution of Nolvasan
for the Overpass sidewalk that gets pretty bad as they live right above it.
But you'd need to also net it pretty quickly after that to ensure that this didn't
happen again. They will instinctually always return there to roost.

fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I don't want to panic you about the situation that you are witnessing so that you go to the landlord for a fast solution to the problem. 
If you could take a few pictures of the baby and of the living situation, that would help the forum to help you. It may not be as bad as it seems and there are ways to manage this without removing the poop as long as the area is dry, after all colonies of birds have been doing well like this since time immemorial.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pictures would be very helpful. I live w/pigeons inside the house, but
have the ability to clean. I'd be worried if I didn't w/any pet.

fp


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

Thanks a lot of the advise! I'll see if I can get some pictures of them. I've only got a cellphone camera for now that doesn't take pictures very well through glass, and I haven't opened the door in almost a year. I'd estimate there are about 15-20 of them, and more on the way. I just noticed a new nest out there. I'm not sure if it's the same mother pigeon, but I haven't noticed anyone sitting with the chick, and the new and old nests are close together.

Would cleaning up out there disrupt their society? I know there are a lot of nests I can't see up in the rafters and farther back in the patio (it goes most of the length of my apartment and is entirely covered). If there isn't too high a risk of pigeons abandoning eggs and chicks, maybe I'll clean it up as much as possible. We're up on a second floor apartment, so there's not too much a risk of vermin (I think?). I'll see if I can get any decent pictures without disturbing the birds and see if venturing out there is worth the risk, or if they're doing fine as they are.

I never thought I'd be this interested in pigeons!


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Cell-phone pics are fine for now. What are the dimensions of the balcony? (we can do a pigeon per square foot density study here  ). That can help us determine if you are soon to be awash in pigeons or if it's not as bad as it seems. 

The birds will fly off if you go out there but will return after they see you do them no harm. It all depends on how used to humans they are. The pigeons that live the the area I work at are very shy and will stay far from humans but return as soon as they can after a human is gone. Urban birds may not be as shy as they are used to people and if they don't go foraging around people, they would starve. As you know, pigeons make a clattering noise with their wings as they fly off, so expect that noise.

Try and stay away from the nesting pairs for now as disturbing the nests with developing eggs or young babies can befuddle the parents and they may not return. 

Pigeons usually lay 2 eggs per clutch so as soon as possible after the 2nd egg is laid, remove both eggs, boil them and return them to the nest (let 'em cool first, don't want to give anyone a heat burn). If the eggs are just taken, the pigeons will keep laying. It's hard, but the chicks don't start to develop until the parents have started to brood the eggs. This is easier than having too many pigeons and it's much easier on the parents as they get a break from raising too many clutches. 

If you do decide to go out there and start excavating poop, start at the door and work out from the door. Keep a heavy duty trashbag out there to put stuff in and seal it after you do your clean-up for the day so nothing gets in there w/out your knowledge. I'd dispose of the trash bag on a daily basis to keep things easy.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Here's a link from our "sticky" zone about cleaning a loft. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13286
written by Trees Gray. You can private message her for more details about germicides and so on. She keeps a loft as do several people on this forum so they have first-hand experience on the "Joys of Cleaning".  in a confined area. Me -- I just clean up after chemical spills


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Treesa (Trees Gray) is having computer problems right now and won't be able to check the Pigeon-Talk board or respond to e-mails .. sorry .. Hopefully she will be back on-line soon.

Terry


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

I still haven't ventured out there. I have a feeling there's a nest between the two outside doors. I'm also concerned that opening the door might let dirt and things blow into the house. I'm thinking of securing my cats upstairs and just removing the screen from a nearby window.

The chick is doing very well! He's pale grey all over, and he doesn't stay by his mom anymore (Mom has two new eggs). He has some brownish bands on his wings that I think will go away, and he has yellow threads sticking out all over him. He doesn't fly, but he hops around on the different objects out there and flaps his wings a lot for practice or balance. The look perfectly fine. I guess I'll see what kind of pictures I can get here...


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

This is the door to the balcony. As you can see, it has fallen into disuse.










This is a view of the balcony from the nearby window:










Looking out the window on the door (sorry for how bad these pictures are, but the window is pretty dirty on the outside and my cellphone camera isn't great).










They look pretty happy.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

This is a shot of the ground. The white object is an egg that has been abandoned.










When I moved in here, there was a gross old plastic table that I wanted to get rid of. I put it out on the porch. Now it's a plaything for the baby pigeons. And it's even grosser than before.










Here's the balcony from the outside. Yep, my place isn't exactly classy. I'm a starving student.










Hours of cat entertainment.










When I'm feeling more brave, I might take down the screen and go out there for some close-ups.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

Mother (or father?) pigeon on the nest:










This is what it looks like in there. I decided to pass on going in because it smelled too bad and was just disastrously gross. I'm kind of worried about my health right now. 










Shortly after that pic was taken, the pigeon in the nest flew away and I tooka picture of the babies. Unfortunately they came out as two yellow gobs in a pile of dirt on my phone.

Also, the second picture does not show the end of the coop. What looks like a back wall is actually only the table. I counted three other nests in there, two up in the rafters and one wedged between the two doors.


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## A_Smith (Aug 8, 2006)

Yup that is alot of poop. Here is my 2 cents. On a windy, dry day, ventilation will be good and poop will be dry. Somehow get onto porch with gloves, trash can (doubble bagged don't want first to break without back-up, poop gets heavy.) and a large paint scraper. You can then scrape the poop. This probaly will not take as long as you think. The droppings stick together almost like a dried unbaked pie crust. Caution the weight will add up quickly so check the bag weight. After the main scraping is done then clean with water and clorox to sanatise. Then you can enjoy the space and the birds. They will take time to adjust to sharing with you but you can earn their trust. ( read as feed them ) If you keep cleaning before area is too messy both you and birds will be happy. Maybe you can provide nesting/roosting area if birds still want to live there.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Time for a bit of Tom Sawyer-ing?*

Are you sure they're pigeons and not politicians?   That does look like they'd (politicos) be right at home. 

It's doable. Just make sure you cover your hair, mask your face, and glove up at a minimum. That will make you feel better if nothing else and keep junk from falling in your hair. It might not be Martha Stewart beautiful after you're done, but you'll be able to enjoy your view a lot more if you aren't grossed out from the get go. I know, starving students get the best housing  , been there, done that. It's a great incentive to finish school!


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

My main concern right now is causing the birds to abandon their young. And there doesn't seem to be a pause in the breeding, ever. I accidentally scared away the corner nest parent, but fortunately it came back. How much stress can they take before they leave the nests? I guess I have to figure out the lesser of two evils - losing one generation, or living with an ever-growing hill of poop. 

I thought about putting some plants out there, but I guess that'd be the beginning of the end for my building (if it's not already in the first phase), to be supporting four households and a full-blown ecosystem.

I can't wait to get out of school! Maybe I'll still keep some pigeons around, but in a more user-friendly environment. They honestly have grown on me. Like fungi.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Pigeons are a prey species. They have to replace themselves quickly, so if the weather and light are right, they keep breeding. As there are only two eggs in an average clutch, it takes a lot of clutches to maintain the population status quo, hence the merry-go-round. You can step in and offer your pigeon neighbors a rest by replacing newly laid eggs with dummies so mom and dad get a break. 

Now on to the fun stuff.

If you can stand it, step out there and just stand (or sit on a box or whatever you brought out for the purpose) and wait. Stay quiet for awhile and see how the parents react. They will be nervous but may not leave or if they leave, will return after they see you are no threat. If they remain watchful but not hyper, then it should be pretty easy to work around them, if not you'll have to go slow but you can do it. You can wait for a week or so if the newest batch are just hatched to give them a bit more time. Regardless, should the parents abandon the babies, there's help here to get them to adulthood. 

Start in the area away from the nest if you can. Get one of those longhandled paint scrapers -- they sell them at the Home Depot-type stores. Ask for them. Or you can devise a similar tool by attaching a short wide scraper to the end of a broom handle with duct tape. Just make sure it's a relatively sturdy set up. That will give you some "distance" from the poop pile. A snow shovel makes a great dust pan and pick up tool. If the piles aren't too glued together, a shovel will do the job nicely. Get those heavy duty garbage bags -- double bag and just plunge in. 

Like we said in earlier posts, just glove, mask, bonnet, and bootie up (use plastic grocery bags if you can't buy some of the protections). You can buy almost all of the protective gear in the paint section of any hardware or home improvement store. Wear old clothes that you can wash. Dispose of the protective gear before you step back into the house. I take off my gloves last and turn them inside out as I remove them. They go in the trash if they are disposable. If the gloves aren't, take them off so they are right side out (just slide your hands out of them). 

If you work without huge gestures and without too much "ICK!, YUK! GROSS!" (noises from humans expressing disgust and dismay  ) , the residents (bird) will tolerate the invading alien much better. 

If you should have to move a nest with babies or eggs in it, replace it as soon as possible so the parents recognize it as theirs. Pigeons are very smart, but they suffer "short-term memory loss" on other things (nests) (like me and keys  ).

Once you get it clean, you can get in the area and replace newly laid eggs with dummies. That will keep everyone happy and not on a perpetual cycle of laying more eggs. Pigeons lay to replace eggs that are taken. Unless the eggs are replaced, you will wind up with fragile hens from the stress of laying -- and then you will have to set up a little bird hospital, I can tell, you're a caring person. 

I'm sure you'll feel better once the place is cleaned up, and you can put some plants out there to enhance the porch's ecosystem and the view for you, the cat, and the pigeons.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

I still have a hard time photographing them. They're too fast. But here are some attempts:


















Here's a more clear shot of the babies (I finally got my camera fixed). The red arrow points to the place where I found another nest with two eggs inside.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

The babies are adorable, thank you for watching over them and your attempt to make it a cleaner, and healthier world for all.


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## A_Smith (Aug 8, 2006)

Looking at the size of the babies it would be a great time to clean the area. Those babies are almost ready to fly from your porch. They are also a great size for them to earn your trust. They my be to small to fly away and will learn to eat from your hand with patience. If you do something like whistle or ring a bell when feeding you may even be able to call them to your porch at feeding time. ***Make a bet with classmate you can get bird to come to you by wistleing, You might get some feed money.*** The best way to "like" cleaning up after the birds is to enjoy time spent with them.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

That would be so much fun, to have them be a little tame! I haven't had much chance to go out there lately, as it seems to be monsoon season in Ottawa. I'm pretty sure someone said the mess is a little more dangerous when it's wet. The little birds are able to walk now and look like they've got all their proper feathers, except that they still have yellow threads sticking out all over their heads and necks. But there's always the next round.

These poor birds breed non-stop. They're on litter number four this season. I was a little bit appalled at first by the suggestion of taking the eggs and boiling them or replacing them with dummy eggs, but I think I might have to. I guess pigeons are probably designed to procreate continuously, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind the break. And I wouldn't have to worry about nest abandonment. 

I love the grey babies but I really hope I find out where the all-black ones are coming from once I get further back in there. Those would make really cool pigeon friends.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

I've had to put a stop to the clean-up of the coop. There are weird, tiny bugs getting into my apartment. I don't know what they are (they are very tiny but squish-able). I've especially noticed them on the old chair I have by the door to that other balcony.

I don't know if there's any effective non-harmful way to kill these bugs outdoors. I've also noticed them upstairs too in my pile of unused blankets. Pigeons perch on the window sill of this room.

This has kind of got me troubled. I'll try out the apple cider vinegar and seal up the door to the balcony again, but I feel pretty bad for the birds that have to put up with this, too. I haven't noticed any bite on me and the cats don't seem itchy, but all the same I'm going to put my house on a bit of a lockdown.

Can the pigeons and my household live together in harmony? If the solution is for me to just close up the windows where pigeons roost and seal the door to the balcony... that means a poop build up in the balcony... will they be alright? Is there an insecticide I can safely use out there? I'll try out anything I can before I have to evict the birds.



I found out what these things are, and it's not very good. I am now the proud owner of birdmites... http://birdmites.org/


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## A_Smith (Aug 8, 2006)

In my opinion the best thing to do is remove the poop. This is a nice damp spot for the bugs to live. When the area is clean, it will be much dryer and the bugs will be moving to a damper location also. Also the area will be useable by you and the birds.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Fever, you may want to spray the poop with water just before you start cleaning up the poop to keep the dust and dander to a minimum.

Also, a product called diatomaceous earth may help. It is a natural product that is made into a powder that you could sprinkle at the entrances into your apartment. I think you need to get the food grade kind. This is a recent link where it was discussed but you can do a search and find others.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=21908


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Fever, you may want to spray the poop with water just before you start cleaning up the poop to keep the dust and dander to a minimum.
> 
> Also, a product called diatomaceous earth may help. It is a natural product that is made into a powder that you could sprinkle at the entrances into your apartment. I think you need to get the food grade kind. This is a recent link where it was discussed but you can do a search and find others.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=21908


Eh, LT? That's better known as Chalk.


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

It's too late. These bugs are everywhere. They're in my laundry room, my computer chair, the couch near the door. They are on my cats. The stores don't sell the mite spritz, I have to take my pets to the vet to get a prescription, even the newest additions to my family, my pet doves, so I can get bird-grade stuff as a precautionary measure.

I think I am in a bit over my head now. I am going to contact a humane bird relocation group, and it's looking like I need an exterminator for the bugs (I'm not as sympathetic towards them as I am to the pigeons...  ). I hope I can get most of these expenses from my landlord, but it's kind of iffy, since I just got the doves. They are confined to the laundry room though, and the mites are everywhere!

I've sealed up the exits to the pigeon balcony. Sometimes I get mad at the pigeons, but there's a new bunch of babies out there. They're so sweet... aw, it's not really their fault they got bugs. I bet they hate them as much as I do.

Also, from what I've learned, the mites don't come from the poop. They live mainly in the nests of birds. I'm getting my info from www.birdmites.org, which has a lot of very worrisome info on this. If anyone can assure me that it's a lot of fearmongering, please, please tell me...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I believe a liberal dusting with Sevin dust would quickly, easily, and cost effectively solve the mite problem both inside and outside. I often have people bring me nests with baby birds in them, and they are pretty much always mite infested .. both the nests and the birds. I toss the nests, make up a nest bowl for the babies and liberally sprinkle Sevin dust on the nest liner and place the babies in the nest. It usually takes a couple of changes of the nest liner and redusting, but the mites are quickly and easily done away with.

Terry


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

Alright, thanks for the advise. I'll give the seven dust a try, seems like Borax is pretty good. I just have to make sure that I keep it non-toxic. To cats and doves. My downstairs neighbours are complaining about bugs as well, and have come to talk to me about the pigeons. I've sealed up the doors and windows with caulking, but this is an old, old building, about 150 years old, and full of cracks. It's also an historic site and can't be altered. Yes, evidently, after talking to my neighbours about what to about the balcony, I found out that it can't be taken down or uncover it to make it less inviting to birds, because our building has... a history... it was built to be a grandiose place for men to pay for the services of ladies... I guess I should count myself lucky that the worst of my bug problem is bird mites?


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