# HELP! Baby Pigeon Throat Closing/ Congested!!!!!



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Help!!!
I rescued a baby pigeon who was doing well up till now. He has grown quite
a bit and his feathers have come out but he still has a few yellow hairs. He is able to stand now too. I am hearing a loud crackling raspy sound in his throat when he trys to beg for food and it really sounds like he is congested, like their is mucus in his throat. Also, his crop is not emptying as fast as it used to. I am using Exact to feed him and have tried using more water in it to make it go down easier. I have also tried 1 cc of unflavored yograt. But, he hasn't improved at all. I have also emptyed out his crop once. He is really looking weak. Please help me I do not want him to die!! Is their anyway to get the food to empty out of his crop sooner?? I think his throat is closing up, is their anything to help him fight off this???


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Where are you located? 

You can try syringing about 3-5 cc's of baking soda water or apple cider vinegar water to the bird and then massaging the crop. Get the bird on a heating pad or come up with a way to provide warmth particularly to the crop area of the bird.

Don't feed anymore until the crop empties .. just the baking soda water or ACV water. Once the crop empties you can go back to very thin Exact and work your way back up.

The young bird may have canker which would explain your thought that the throat is closing up .. if it does have canker (trichomoniasis), you need to get it started on the right medicine right away.

I'm going to have to sign off shortly for the night, but please do post back and others will be along to try and help.

Terry


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

What is the right medicine? I have tried penicillin at 125mg. 

Also, how much baking soda and water to use or apple cider and vinegar and water to use?
What would be the measurements?

Thanks!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Baking soda .. 1 teaspoon to one cup of water 

ACV - 1 teaspoon to one quart of water 

Don't give both .. choose one or the other ..

If the bird has canker (and we don't know this for sure) you need one of the "zole" drugs .. carnidazole, metronidazole, ronidazole.

Don't forget the warmth .. that's essential to help with a slow crop.

And don't forget to tell us where you are located.

Terry


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Terry we are located in San Francisco & very low on money for any vet. Do you suggest I stop the pennicillin? Will try one of the solutions you suggested. We have sent you birds in the past (Chris's loft) you called them. Hope they are well. Please email any other suggestions.
Chistopher (father) & Aiko (daughter).


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko,



This sounds like there are several problems going on.

You mention he can now stand.


Well, they 'stand' nicely when only four or five days old for that matter, so, something has been been 'off'.


How many poops in 24 Hours has this youngster been making usually?

And, what do they look like, color wise, consistancy wise? Size wise?



Can you say how many days old this Baby is? Or at least how long you have had him, and how old roughly, he was when you got him?

This link shows images of the day to day developement...but this assumes they are not starved or sick or both.

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm


When you say you emtpied his Crop previously, what did you do to empty it?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

aiko said:


> Terry we are located in San Francisco & very low on money for any vet. Do you suggest I stop the pennicillin? Will try one of the solutions you suggested. We have sent you birds in the past (Chris's loft) you called them. Hope they are well. Please email any other suggestions.
> Chistopher (father) & Aiko (daughter).




Stop the pennicillin.

Please, tell us the dose you have been giving, how often, and how have you been giving it?


Do not just put plain Cider Vinegar into his mouth...wait please for the moment for more discussion.


Lets just slow down a little here, and you can give some more details, before doing any more rash or destructive things to this Bird.


How old -

Poops -

How did you empty his Crop -



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Hi - Just got back from store with Baking Soda. Pigeon is about 20 days old. He was about 8 days old when I first got him. Other egg was dead. Rescued as would have been killed where nest was. Have raised squabs before but this one is having trouble. Crackling sound when breathing. Fed bout one hour ago. Only gave 1/3 Exact mixed with some cultured yogurt, totaling bout 20cc. Only had one poop was watery, not green, since his last feeding about 2 and 1/2 hours ago. Gave first dose of penicillin at 125mg earlier. This would be at one dose for 7-10 days total. Will stop the pennicillin as you suggest. Terry suggested & just bought baking soda at 1 tablespoon to 1 cup of water. We do not have the apple cider vinegar. Should we feed the baking soda in the morning, bout 7 am and if so how many times per day for how many days, and do you suggest feeding the Exact at 1/3 dilution & in birds condition how much per feeding & I expect only when crop is empty. Crop has not been emtying completely. So had lowered dilution down to 1/3 Exact. He has been in this condition for about 3 days. He has also been trying to vomit several times a day since he's been sick. Appreciate your assistance.


----------



## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

if its canker i suggest you buy spartrix.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko,



Have there been any chaulky 'yellow' in the poops? or in liquids attenting the poops?




Does this Bird seem to make plenty of his own warmth for himself? Is he indeed quite 'warm' if you have him in your hand or palm? Or had he been?


My guess, so far, is that he is ill from being fed plain K-T, which pretty reliably gives them Candida and Yeast problems, especially if they have been at all chilled or even when not...causing the Crop to go into stasis, and shutting down their entire digestive system, and sometimes making gas or 'Air' in the Crop as well.


If this youngster at 16, 18, 20 days of age, was not previously making 45 poops in 24 hours, he was by whatever proportion less than that, not being fed enough anyway, which may also have occasioned some problems as for his making enough heat for himself.


I have to go now, but I will check back in a half hour or so and reply some more...

Till next..

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

I will look to see if there are any chalky yellow in his poops. But, so far he hasn't done any poops and his crop isn't emptying. I am worried about him overly trying to vomit. When he trys to vomit most of the time nothing comes out and you can see he is being really forceful in trying to get the food out of his system. This is probably because he can't empty his crop. He seems warm on his own, he is under a heating lamp at the moment. Should, I empty his crop in the morning if it is not empty? Or should I wait?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko, 


I have no idea how you have been "emptying" his Crop, and generally, this would be a very dangerous thing TO do, or to try and do. Will you explain?

Anyway, I would say "No", do not try emtpying his Crop for now, just leave it be.


If you have had this Bird for two weeks or more, have there NEVER been any Poops at all? Or, whan last there were, what did they look like "then"?

If you keep him in a cage for now, on a light color or white towell, not paper towells, but a "towell", then you can see, evaluate and count the poops, once they start happenning again ainyway.


If this young Pigeon has eaten nothing BUT the "K-T" you have been feeding him, and now is is sick and trying to throw up, I suggest you review your practices for feeding, and outline them in detail for us, so we, or I, or whomever wants to, can eveluate what you have been doing feeding-wise, since there is a lot more TO it than 'just' mixing and feeding K-T.


About all I can suggest for now, for tonight, is find a store that is open, or a neighbor or ralative or whatever, and get some Apple Cider Vinegar, or White Vinegar even, and add three Tablespoons of it to a Gallon of Water...just get a plastic Gallon at 7-11, label it for this, and add the Vinegar to that.

Tomorrow, when it is easy to do, get some "Braggs" Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, and then from then on, use it instead, in a fresh Gallon of Water, or fresh Water in the previouds plastic Gallon Jug.


This then, should be his drinking Water for the next eight or ten days...

And for the next couple of days, no more "K-T", or any other food...just let him fast.

Were you feeding him anything else?


If he is not drinking on his own, and if he has Candida or Yeast infections, which is my best guess as to what he IS suffering from, he likely is not interested in eating or drinking...so, if he is not drinking on his own, do you have a safe and sure way to get the ACV-Water into his Crop?



Can you post some images?



Phil
l v


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Hi,

He was last fed 20 cc at 1/3 of Exact at 10 pm last evening. Crop is still half full and it is now 8 am here. He drank some water and the raspy sounds he was making before seem to have decreased. He is still trying to vomit. The poops are watery, muddy, lite green, and ave some whiteness in it. 

Emptying the crop consists of holding the bird upside down and massaging the crop gently until fluids come out. I only did this once, yesterday morning because it was not emptying completely and I was worried it was rotting as he had a strong odor coming from his mouth.

Do you agree that I should stop feeding him Exact just for today and instead try the baking soda (1 teaspoon to one cup of water) since I have it? I could get apple cider vinegar but I only have the baking soda at the moment.

Also, how many days would you recommend giving the baking soda and water if I were to do that?

Here are some photos, one is of what his poop looks like now:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/499651337/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/499594114/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/499594106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/499594102/


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The baking soda solution is 1 TEASPOON to 1 cup of water. If you are going to go with the baking soda solution instead of the ACV solution that is fine. We are just trying to change the Ph balance in the crop and hoping to get it moving things through again. Give just the soda or ACV solution for now .. no food until the crop starts functioning again.

I'm sorry the little one is having such a rough time of it.

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

aiko said:


> Do you agree that I should stop feeding him Exact just for today and instead try the baking soda (1 teaspoon to one cup of water) since I have it? I could get apple cider vinegar but I only have the baking soda at the moment.
> 
> Also, how many days would you recommend giving the baking soda and water if I were to do that?


The baking soda solution should be given for at least a full 24 hours and 48 hours is the recommended time period. Definitely stop the Exact for now and give just the soda solution.

Terry


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Terry - 

How are the 3 birds doing at Chris's loft that had been sent via USPS, they had lost shipment twice resulting in delivery delay, sent from San Francisco? As I remember I think they each had a fused wing but were perfectly healthy. We sent them to you a couple years ago.

Do you have photos?

We are about to give the backing soda water to him now..
Is it okay to give it to him even though his crop is half full
and should the water with the baking soda be warmed or cold?

-Christopher & Aiko


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

aiko said:


> Terry -
> 
> How are the 3 birds doing at Chris's loft that had been sent via USPS, they had lost shipment twice resulting in delivery delay, sent from San Francisco? As I remember I think they each had a fused wing but were perfectly healthy. We sent them to you a couple years ago.
> 
> ...


Hi Aiko,

The baking soda solution should be a little bit warm.

I haven't heard from Chris in a long time, so as far as I know the birds are doing well. I think I would have heard if that were not the case. I'll have to check through my old photos and see if I have any of them.

Terry


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Hi Terry,

My father is Chris and I am his daughter. We sent you the pigeons through the mail to you. We were looking for a home for them where they would be cared for since they could never fly again. Did you keep them or did you give them away?

Anyway, about this baby..he had a few sips of the baking soda water and is now resting under the heat lap. Did look at the photos of him? That is what his setup looks like. His crop is still half full. I will keep you posted.

Thanks


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

aiko said:


> Hi Terry,
> 
> My father is Chris and I am his daughter. We sent you the pigeons through the mail to you. We were looking for a home for them where they would be cared for since they could never fly again. Did you keep them or did you give them away? Thanks


It's confusing .. I have a friend down here named Chris who lives in the San Fernando valley. He loves pigeons and is especially fond of disabled ones. He adopted the ones you sent down to me and as I posted the birds were doing fine the last time I heard from Chris. Chris ("my" Chris) became very ill last year and had to quit working and had to give up most of his activities aside from his beloved pigeons. They became pretty much his whole life and his reason for keeping going. A mutual friend (Samantha) has kept me updated on Chris and his situation. I'll ask her to specifically check with him about your birds and will let you know what I find out.

Terry


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Okay, thank you very much it is appreciated to hear an update about how the birds are doing. 

The baby is currently resting in his little nest made up of white towels and seems to be a little less weak. He has done three poops since 8 am and will not be given any Exact today.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko,




Nice and really healthy looking youngster you have there...


These 'Crop Stasis' issues occur easily and often in situations where young Pigeons who in Nature would have been being fed Seeds for 10 days or so already, are kept in diets of K-T.


The K-T contains some desireable yeasts and other, but unfortunatetly, these, or how the food is made and kept, result in Candida or Yeast infections which soon slow the Crop, and infect their passage to their stomach, and ultimately their whole digestive system.


The ACV-Water, rather than being an valuable expedient for the moment, is a regimen which will eliminate these infections, while also eliminating various other un-desireable organisms, and helps their system in various additional nutritive ways...and is something one does for ten days or so, and not merely a one time thing.


These conditions need time for their infecting/infestations to diminish, and to go away, and for the tissues to heal...and thus, for the Bird to return to normal.


This is my reasoning for useing the ACV-Water, in stead of the one-time Baking Soda...even though the Baking Soda is understood to clear the Crop and get things moving again, in it's way, also...I myself wish to be aqssured that t he Bird may eliminate the infesting/infecting organisms, in addition to merely causing the Crop to clear for the time being.

The Crop will soon clear with the ACV-Water, so it is not as if it is offering any compromise on that score.


If you wish to avoid this Crop issue in the future, or to know how to treat it if it is brought to you, and to make sure it does not return, I would be glad to outline feeding protocols, which both use K-T, and, in addition, allow Seeds.

And for that matter, this Bird could have been long since self feeding by now, or can do so soon, or soon as he is well enough, so there is no need for him to have to be hand-fed anything...and he can galdly self-feed and Peck his seeds, instead.

Or, you can have him self feeding in no time, and still augment this with hand-feeding also if you liked.

Let me know, and I would be glad to outline these things for you.


For now, he should fast a couple days, and, if you elect to use the ACV-Water, this should be his drinking water for the next ten days.

For the first four days, it can be Three Tablespoons to the Gallon, and after that, Two is fine.

And for one of his age, the drinking Water needs to be offered by hand, in a Teacup or something, and it needs to be tepid, or close to body temperature, unless he is already drinking by himself to abide cool or room temperature Water.

If you are having trouble getting him to drink, I would be glad to explain how you may succeed to do so.


Good luck..!



Best wishes!

Phil
LAs Vegas


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Phil - 

I would appreciate your outline of feeding protocols using K-T Exact & seeds. The pigeon is sounding better. Less crackling when chirping. Am currently giving it 1 tsp to 1 cup of water and no food. This started about 3 AM in the very early morning, yesterday. This will continue til about 5 PM or so tomorrow when I plan to give Exact at a dilution of 1 to 3 part water (very diluted & at that time to stop the baking soda. Will do the AVC with the Exact if you suggest. A new problem. Bird is looking & sounding better. Can stand, sounds a bit better & drinks the water well. But have just seen a small speck of blood in the poop which also appears better. One can think the worst but I tend to think that the speck of blood is related to the stasis & is normal in this situation as long as it does not increase & clears up very soon. Ahh. Finances are extremely tight & a vet is not an option. I have raised & rescued many pigeons but this stasis is a first case for me. Believe the bird has an excellent chance.


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but it sounds alot like canker and it sounds very advanced. I think that some of the more experianced people have been tiptoeing around that but you need to hear it. He will be one lucky baby if you can save him. Not even some of the flyers i have known that have been flying for over 80 years fight and fight canker it is the anthrax of pigeons. Im sorry. I hope it isnt and if it is i hope it just goes away.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I kinda' thought the poop picture that you linked might indicate an enteritis (inflammation of the instestinal tract, possibly due to a bacterial infection). Slow crop sometimes doesn't have anything to do with the crop--sometimes it's the entire GI motility that's gone down and an infection might be the cause.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That said, I'd have hit the bird with Baytril and Metronidazole in combo. Since you're in San Francisco and can't afford a vet, I'd try to contact our member feralpigeon on here for help.

Pidgey


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Tuesday 9 PM 

Our pigeon just did another poop. No trace of blood. Poop was dark green & wet. Believe a good sign. 

Clarity & thinking clearly is necessary. Still believe this is a case of stasis & the remedy is in progress. Advice is most welcome.


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

i will in sf tomorrow. I would love to help but i am on my 8th grade trip, so i dont think my teacher would let me go and give you advice and some anti-biotics. LOL


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

ok well if it has a dark green poo and it is runny it might have coccidiosis. Just another widely spred disease among pigeons.


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

I am in Japan Town section of San Francisco. If your class goes by Japan Town Center let me know.


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

got it i will. u have a phone number? if you have on pm me for max security. you dont know who is looking.


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

The young pigeon has a normal chirp now & has lost that deep crackle sound. This is excellent. Bird still fasting, no food. Intend to fed K-T Exact @ 1 part Exact to 3 parts water @ bout 5 PM later today & put seed back in enclosure. Bird was just starting to eat a little seed. Crop is now empty. (yes!) I hope crop will function normally after this. Am continuing with the backing soda at 1 tsp to 1 cup of water & will stop this @ 5 PM when continue feeding. Phil suggested starting bird on the AVC 1 tsp to 1 quart water for 8-10 days. Request feedback. Bird is alert & looking well. Poops are dark green & less watery. Problem is I will see from time to time a speck (a verry small, pin size dot) of blood in the poop. This is often not the case but has seen it once today. Have seen this a total of bout only 3 times in 3 days. Bad sign but it is so small & am hoping when bird is done with baking soda & on food later today that bird can overcome this. No funds available for vet. Have noticed many illnesses mentioned that cover the field. Believe things are under control at the moment & hope bird is recovering.


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

The current condition of the young pigeon (about 22 days), now named, Sandi appears good. Below photos taken @ 2:30 PM of Sandi & stool. At 5 PM will stop the baking soda & go back to water & feed her 15 cc of 1 part K-T Exact to 3 parts water. She will have fasted a good 48 hrs, having just the baking soda brew. 

I wish to thank everyone for their advice. And I wish to give a heartfelt thank you to Terry!

photos below:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/501342302/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/501342314/


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Aiko, Sandi is adorable and I hope you're over the bad part of the slow emptying crop. I believe you initially were giving him 1 cc plain yogurt in his Exact. Since you are stopping the soda, I would begin adding the yogurt back to the Exact to help his digestion, even increasing it to about 1 1/2 cc. You can also purchase a product called Benebac and add that to his Exact for at least one feeding, leaving off the yogurt for that feeding only. You can also alternate with ACV. Any of those products should help. I am absolutely sold on the yogurt and Benebac because since we started using it (knock on wood  ) our pigeons have had no digestive problems.

His poops are still pretty watery but I guess at this point you're glad to see them and they should start firming up soon. 

He is larger than I initially thought him to be and should soon start eating seed on his own. I would continue to hand feed until his tummy gets straight but put seed and ACV water in his cage every day and "peck" along with him  until he gets the hang of eating.

You have done a very good job.


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

To clarify - add 1.5 cc cultured yogurt to pigeon's 15 cc Exact @ 1 part Exact to 3 parts water with seed in cage. And if I understood, the Benebac would be given only one time only. And could do the ACV @ 1 tsp to 1 quart water for next 8-10 days. Does this sound right or is it overdoing it.


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Update - 05/16/07 8:16 PM
After feeding our bird, Sandi her first meal of 1.5cc cultured yogurt and 15cc of 1 to 3 parts K-T Exact the bird's chirp has become crackling, raspy again. Worried...


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

*RIP Sandi, a good bird*

Final Update - 051607 9:24 PM
I left updates but no responses... After I gave the yogurt at 1.5cc & the K-T Exact at 1 part Exact to 3 parts water the bird, Sandi ate a few seeds and was in the enclosure with heatlamp. Soon as I had posted Sandi's chirp changed back to a raspy crackle sound. A few minute ago her mouth was opening & closing as Sandi struggled for air. Suffocating, Sandi died very badly and quickly. Very sad. Sandi appeared to be much better and on the mend. The chirp had come back. Feel that even diluted at 1 to 3 the K-T Exact created the problem. A very short, hard life. Rest in Peace. Very sad!


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

So sorry to hear about poor Sandi. You did everything you could and I am sure made Sandi's short life a little easier because you cared.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I am so very sorry, Aiko. I need to think about this whole scenario a bit rather than just post a "knee jerk" reaction. I know you did everything you could but don't want to post just the "I'm so sorry" .. I know you want to know more than that.

Terry


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Bird was doing better. Chirp was back. Bird was active. Stool looked better and there was no sign of blood in stools. K-T Exact at 1 part Exact to 3 parts water given after 48 hrs of fasting immediately brought back the raspy, crackle sounds with the bird having problems breathing. Any thoughts to what we missed so as to learn from this specific situation? Thinking that the air passage must have narrowed, allowing the baking soda, water to be effective but with the Exact, even diluted as it was, blocking the air passage. Best to take a step back and rethink and try to learn from this. If a similar situation, should one probably have had an even more diluted K-T Exact at say 1 part Exact to 6 parts water at first to be on the very safe side with a touch of sugar included for the electrolytes? Any thoughts?
With heartfelt appreciation,
Aiko


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko,




Ohhhhhhh...I am very sorry this went as it did.

You sure gave it a really good try all through.


Please forgive me for offerig to aid with feeding advice then disappearing a little while there. I was pretty slammed here with various things, and I also got depressed from some bad reactions one of my posts had invited and it was hard to think about posting anything.


In retrospect, do you know what a skin-bubble tends to look like when a Pigeon has a ruptured Air Sac?


Babys or Juveniles can get these from bad falls, even when legs and wings and all came out fine.


Anyway, our 'Pidgey' here on the forum, he and I were talking about this today, and he suggested to me that a skin-bubble could be interpreted as a Gassy Crop, if one was not somewhat experienced with them.

This is a good thing for us all to remember when we can not see the Pigeon whose woes we are trying to deduce.


Gas in the Crop would tend to be highish center front, low on the Neck sort of, while skin-bubbles would be usually, not center front.



Crop stasis can occur from various causes or processes, but once it is happenning, then Gas or fermentation of course are typical side effects...with the fermentation itself becomeing a cause of additional problems, if it was not the initial one.



The ACV-Water is fine for any Pigeon, any time, and will benifit specific conditions or problems, as well as benifit their system generally.


So, no harm if one uses it in suspected Candida or Yeast issues or Crop stasis situations...or any time.



Your youngster may well have had some internal injurys, with or without any Skin Bubbles from ruptured Air Sacs...if he had fallen hard prior to your getting him...and these, depending on where inside, could also develop into systemic infections.


He may have had some kind if infection or 'enteritis' in his Intestines, which could have caused things to back up, or ultimately to make a static Crop.

Traces of Blood in the poops can occur form these, or from Worms.


Worms too can cause traces of blood, and for their system to get blocked up, and for Crop issues to develop.


But, he seems a little young to me for there to have been time for Worms to get that bad.



You can see their Tracheal opening easily, when you are opening their Beak.


Upper repiratory infections which are compromiseing their Breating, will show a very large diameter Trachial opening, ad one which does not close between breaths, compared to an uncompromised Pigeon.

Too, it tends to stay open and only sort of waver between way-full 'open' and a little less open, when they are compromised with some illness in their upper Respitory areas.


This can make it very dicey for Liquids being given to them, since they are vulnerable to aspiration of the liquids into their Lungs...so one must make sure the Tube, when Tube feeding, is dry of any Water, lubed with a very light film of K-Y or Olive Oil, and have the liquid food or Water one is to give them, pulled 'up' in the tube so no drops can come off prematurely.

And, for the tube to be assuredly well into the Crop, mid way into the Crop, and assuredly of course visa the Esophagus, and no where near the Trachea when one starts adminstering the feed or liquid or as may be into their Crop.

And, one must be careful no errant drop falls off when withdrawing the Tube.


If your Bird had aspirated any liquids, this could soon eventuate a pnuemonia, or a bacterial pnuemonia, which would likely make his Tracheal opening very large as he is trying to Breathe...which makes further aspiration scenarios a danger.


When you are getting recommendations of widely varied regimins, it can get hard to decide what to do.


But I would say "Yugurt" is not compatible with an ACV-Water regimen, when such is being used to treat Candida and or Yeast problems, since the bacteria in Yughurt is for now not what one wants anyway, and, will be killed by the ACV PH anyway, so at best, it is only a liability which will consist of lactic-protean products of Bovine Dairy, and that will very possibly produce mucous reactions and possible auto-immuine reactions and congestion.

I am not suggesting the Yoghurt 'did him in', and I do not think it did.
But I will say I am confident that Yoghurt and ACV-Water are not compatible iin the same regimen.


And, that Yogurt will not likely contribute meaningfully to one's efforts to rid the Bird of Candida or Yeasts, if in fact the Bird is suffering from them.

I myself accept that Birds are Lacto-intolerant, since they in fact do not posess the requisite enzymes to digest Dairy.

And, the Organisms in Yughurt are easily given in powdered 'pro-biotics', which are a nice thing to use a dash of in Formulas for Birds who are just off of Antibiotics....but not something one would do in cases of Candida or Yeasts being treated for.

It kinda sounds like your Bird may have aspirated some liquid, or done so more than once.

A slow progressive acquisition of 'raspy' Breathing, is one thing...while, sudden onset of it, or of raspy Beak Breathing, is consistant with Liquid having got into their Lungs. And this is easily fatal, and soon so.

This can do them in.


If he had a reflux event of liquids comeing up from his Crop, and it caught him wrong in his cadence of his Tracheal opening doing it's usual opening and closeing, or, if his Tracheal opening and upper respiratroy tract were compromised by something, then his Trachea might not be closeing at all, even if he appeared to be breathing fine and with no sounds...so, if like that, a reflux event could see liquid going into his Trachea...and this could kill him...but it would be unusual for it to happen.

Do you recall noticing his Tracheal opening, and what it looked like, when you were adminstering food or Water?



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Anytime something is disturbing a bird's vocalization, it's bad news. Food wouldn't automatically do that unless, for instance, canker had eaten a hole between the esophagus and the trachea. A bird vocalizes from the syrinx which is way down the airway. Just a little bit of congestion there can kill a bird pretty easily. Almost anytime that you hear that kind of thing, it's time to do something drastic.

I had to give my bird Unie nebulized treatments for something similar:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19543

But, there was also a strong suspicion of an underlying illness so I put Unie on Baytril and Metronidazole as well. It's possible that your bird got a little food down the airway when he was throwing up several days ago. That's bad, but the underlying cause of the throwing up wasn't addressed. There are many infections that they can get that will start with a primary presentation and then distribute through the body to cause secondary problems as well, like affecting the heart and lungs.

When you stopped feeding the bird, it didn't have to use precious energy to digest food. The food that we eat isn't going to do us any good on the day we eat it--it takes awhile before it becomes the true energy that we're really burning. But, it takes real energy to digest, energy that this bird had probably diverted to fighting the primary illness. When food was reintroduced, it may have been at a critical juncture. That said, you probably shouldn't blame the KayTee per se.

Pidgey


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Believe this review is helpful. I did not look at the Tracheal opening. The bird, Sandi had not fallen because his nest was in a corner, on cement in a lower area of businesses where they systematically kill the constant nesting pigeons and do in the occasional rats with the inhumane sticky rat traps. Please give suggestions and information relating to probiotic for pigeons. I have used probiotic, Purina for cats. Also interesting in the baytril which appears, when one is somewhat uncertain what is going on, to be a med of choice to try. Does that sound right? Where is a choice contact to purchase the probiotic and baytril, in small quantity and specifically, what are the dosages for pigeons? I had Wormout which I have often given grown birds rescued, to be released soon after. I did not give Sandi Wormout because I felt the bird was so young. I appreciate your replies. Phil, I would also still like you to write relating to feeding of the young birds, that you had spoken about before. That could be helpful. For a young bird, Sandi was about 20+ days old, would you suggest using the small hose with holes in it with the syringe and placing the tube down the throat? I have one from a vet. I was using a 6cc syringe.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aiko, I am very sorry to read about the baby's death. It is always hard on those of us who try so hard to help them.

Personally, I believe this baby had an internal GI problem from the beginning and perhaps would have succumbed no matter what you did. I believe the raspy, crackling sound was from food being aspirated and this time he could not cough it up. Frankly, I don't know what caused the blood in the stool as this is something I have never experienced except in cases of a pigeon being egg bound or having worms or coccidiosis. Your baby, to me, was too young to have either of these conditions. 

I just now tried mixing 1 part exact with 3 parts water and, to me, it was thin enough. I have mixed exact so much now that I do it by rote - mixing it thin for a young squab if it is having crop problems, thicker as it gets better, etc. The 1 1/2 cc of plain yogurt would have thickened it some but not enough to cause harm.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aiko, you were posting just now at the same time of my post. You mention a 6 cc syringe. Did this have a tube attached which went directly into the crop?


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

The 6cc syringe was used without a hose. But the tip of this type of specific syringe is 1 inch long which has worked very well with other birds. Do you suggest using a hose in the future and if so where is a good source of hose? For young birds I have mostly prefered a small syringe, no hose so I can monitor how the bird is taking to the food. What do you think?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Since you emailed me, I replied in kind on the earlier questions.

There are many different methods of feeding. I prefer putting a soft tube down all the way to the crop so that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bird's not going to aspirate any food. However, when a bird is sick enough to throw up, formula is fairly dangerous. They're not as likely to breathe in wetted whole kernel corn or peas from the crop, but thick liquidy stuff is very dangerous. Especially when they're in that "not-all-there" condition that come with a lot of bad illnesses.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In case you haven't seen this, it's a thread that shows various methods of feeding, including a tube feeding slideshow and video:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235

Pidgey


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

I appreciate the information.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

aiko said:


> The 6cc syringe was used without a hose. But the tip of this type of specific syringe is 1 inch long which has worked very well with other birds. Do you suggest using a hose in the future and if so where is a good source of hose? For young birds I have mostly prefered a small syringe, no hose so I can monitor how the bird is taking to the food. What do you think?



Hi Aiko,



I would say that this, even IF the formula is pushed out VERY slowly, is simply too dangerous a method, and any slight pressure against he neck or Crop, or any compromise there, and the formula will fill up and over flow the small amount of 'room' left above ths syringe tip, in the esophagus, and make a dangerous aspiration potential for their Tracheal opening, especially as the Bird will be held and steadied for the process where he can not tilt his head down to clear things.


I myself only use a very soft ( like boiled Spaghetii ) Silicone or other Catheters, and I fit about 4 inches OF it to the end of a Syringe...and make a 'Julianne' cut for the end...and even flame melt it slightly so it itself had 'rounded' lips.

If a four inch section of Catheter does not bend of it's own weight into an upside down "U" when held up by one end...for me, it is not soft enough.



This I lubricate, and gently twirl when inserting, and I make sure it is in to the middle of the Crop thereabouts, before I start to push the plunger to dispense the formula, and I still push the plunger fairly slowly.

This can be 'twwirled' even for drilling gently through Canker clogged Throats, and I have had no mishaps with this, and I recall no Pigeons with such throats when I had tube fed them, to have perished. So I feel confident I have never accidently 'drilled' through their esophagus when doing this..but I ONLY do this with the kind of 'tube' I am describing.


When we have Pigeons who have Canker or other issues in their Crops, I feel it is best to use only the softest 'tubes'...otherwise, it can be only too easy to punch or tear right through a tender or infected membrane or tissue and make terrible problems as a result.


And making sure the end of the Tube is just above the bottom of their Crop, or in the middle area anyway, with a slow delivery of the formula...ensures there will be no over-fill comeing 'up' to compromise their Tracheal opening.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko, 



The 'feeding' I was originally interested in offering informaiton about, has to do with encouraging a Juvenile to first Drink Water on his own, and, then, to peck Seeds on his own. Or, for them to self feed, which is so much easier for the novice to bring about, than to tube feed them, especially when they are most likely more than happy to eat and drink on their own...but they just need someone to guide them through a succession of steps, fot them to do so.


These steps sometimes require me to feed them 'like a Baby', but I do so in a manner where they are the active party, and all I do is hold the Food.

More on that soon.


So, their self-feeding has everything to do with how we manage them and work with them for them to do it.


I love feeding Babys, and Juveniles, and too, I like them to a.s.a.p. learn to drink Water when I offer it in a Tea Cup, and, for them to be able to peck and self feed with Seeds I set down for them, so they can make my job easier, while I will also continue TO feed them in ( my own ) Baby-Ways till they are 40 something days old, and then they leave it off out of pride or something.

Lol...


Anyway, a new to me Adolesent or Juvenile, I can usualy get drinking on his own when I offer tepid Water in a Cup, in an hour or so, and similarly, as for his pecking Seeds well.

BUT, only if the progression of steps and guidances and working with him, are done in his terms, for the progression to occur, from only being fed by mom and dad, to self feeding self drinking nicely.

This takes hardly any "time" to accomplish..but it absolutely does take correct and sensitive method.


I can do this with a two week old 'Baby' most of the time also...or, unless they are really ill or injured, I can probably do it every time with a 14 day old.


I never tube feed unless there is no alternative, ( and for me, there are these alternatives which others lack) or, for the seriously ill or injured who can not or will not eat, or to get additional nutrients or meds into them who need it, which are hard to do with their pecking of Seeds alone.



Since I had outlined some of these things recently, I will either cut and paste from those threads, or, provide the links for you to go to the threads.


Print this stuff out and make a folder of information-things, if you are not already doing so.

That way you can easily review at liesure, and any questions which occur to you, or clearifications or expansions you may want, you can then ask specifically about, and I will be glad to fill in whatever I can about it.



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aiko, 



See -


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20450

In which I had made some posts about guiding a Juvenile Pigeon to Drink and Peck Seeds...some of the 'steps' of the progression.


Formula-recipes are a different matter of course...but more on that soon sometime, gotta run now.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## aiko (May 16, 2006)

Thank you Phil for the information. It is very much appreciated.
Aiko


----------

