# Sticky  Paratyphoid Disease and the Vaccine



## Doogal

I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.

Regards,
Doogal


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## lawman

I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)

Its oil base and is the best available here in the states. 

I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards. 

I wouldnt risk flying without it.


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## Doogal

Hi Lawman,
Thanks for your reply, the vaccine I purchased is-;Sal-Bac
Salmonella Typhimurium Bactrin have you used this one if so were there any side effects or loss of performance after using it.
Regards,
Doogal


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## feralpigeon

Hi Doogal,

Not into racing, but thought this link might be of interest to you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9505&highlight=Sal-Bac+homers

I would think the protection would be worth it for your birds, although if wanting 
more info, the search mode in the toolbar above, or googling in general might give you even more info. There are many folks into breeding/racing here, so I would think you could find some additional info.

Best,

fp


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## lawman

Good link to follow for information.

Sal-Bac is probibly the best vaccine for paratyphoid, but its only a portion of the remidy. with the upswing of Circovirus you need to cover all your bases, there is as yet no preventitive treatment for circo.

So you start by giving the birds what treatments you can inorder to prevent them from getting secondary infections. Its the secondary infections (ie pmv, salmonilla, pox, ect...) that will kill them not the circo. the circo will only give the other viruses an opening to attact. So make sure you do preventitive treatment for all three.

At the start of the race season I have never seen any drop in performance, in birds given the treatments verus those that havent been, however by the second or third race your birds are going to come down with everything they have been exposed too. unless they already have the antibodies to fight off the infections. 

This is when you see lofts begin to rise to the top ..... their birds are healthy while everyone elses are not only fighting to get home, but are also fighting to stay alive. so by the third or forth race in the season you will see a deffinite difference in performance.


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## WhiteWingsCa

lawman said:


> I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)
> 
> Its oil base and is the best available here in the states.
> 
> I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards.
> 
> I wouldnt risk flying without it.


If you are using only the PMV-1 vaccine for pigeons, then all you are vaccinating for is PMV - not paratyphoid. Different virus, different vaccine. Reading through your post, I *think* you mean that you vaccinate for PMV at 4-5 weeks, then paratyphoid/pox at 8-9 weeks, then the PMV booster ? 

That is how most people who vaccinate for all three do it, I believe. PMV vaccine itself is a two shot series for YB's.


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## WhiteWingsCa

Doogal said:


> I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.
> 
> Regards,
> Doogal



I've never heard anything about perfomance the following season... seems a little weird... ? I know of only one person who vaccinates for paratyphoid (we don't see it much, if at all, up here), and her birds are aways at the top of the race sheet, in YB's and OB's....


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## pigeonmama

I give my birds PMV and Paratyphoid vaccine, and then booster shots 4 weeks later on both vaccines, young birds only. Birds previously vaccinated get only one shot of each. Master breeder of VF'S also told me that on the paratyphoid vaccine, I need to give it every 6 months. Nice thing about the paratyphoid vacc,it's easier to give than the PMV. I feel like i"m injecting Elmer's Glue when I give the PMV, it's so thick. OUCH !!! 
Daryl


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## lawman

Hello White Wings,

No, I follow the advise of two different vets. one here in So Cal. Dr Shetrone out of San Diego and Dr Pascal (also a vet) out of the Netherlands. I start my vacines as soon as the birds are weened. Basically the theory is that the sooner you start the vaccinations the better. you have to wait for the birds to be weened otherwise the parents antibodies will fight off the vaccine and it wont take. so per my regimine, PMV, SAL-BAC, then POX (oil based not water) you have to give them individually not altogether or you wont get the full immunization. I space the vaccines two weeks apart and give boosters for the first two , after the pox has totally cleared up.


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## WhiteWingsCa

Hi Lawman

We don't vaccinate for pox or paratyphoid 'up here', just PMV. We've started the "vaccinate immediately on weaning" method in our loft this past couple of years, and noticed a huge difference in YB health. So much so, that one group that didn't get vaccinated as they came out of the breeding loft were noticably less healthy than the one that had been vaccinated right away (hubby was working a ton of overtime, and one group just got moved late one evening...). We vaccinated them as soon as we saw this - and they perked right up!

There is a theory that vaccinating them as soon as they are weaned helps kick-start their natural immune system - which helps protect them from any illness in a small way.

Of note - we don't vaccinate for paratyphoid - but we do feed the breeders/weanlings a pellet that contains sal-bac.


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## lawman

Hi White Wings,

Sounds like your doing pretty much the same thing, just doing the Sal-Bac in the form of a pellet rather than a injection. Unfornunately in Southern Cal. there has been a resurgance of Pox, so for the last couple of years I have been giving them preventitive treatment for that too. 

Your right about the different rounds, the ones who go through the program deffenitly look and handle better than those who are not inocculated. I personnelly think they fly overall much better during the entire season as well.


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## upcd

*Why Babies died*

Paratyphoid 
I have believed for a long time that paratyphoid, or salmonellosis, is more widespread than people are willing to accept. I have even stuck my neck out and stated that I thought it is the rare loft that has no birds infected, at least subclinically, or as carriers, with paratyphoid. Good, healthy birds are fairly resistant to paratyphoid and most loft conditions keep it quiet. For reasons that we don’t understand, it will occasionally just spring up, go wild and reach an epidemic state in a loft.
The organism that causes paratyphoid is a bacterium. It’s classified as a gram-negative rod. This differentiates from other classes of bacteria, and puts it in the same class as some more common organisms. Other bacteria can be present and be considered normal, as long as there’s no disease. With salmonella, you cannot ever consider it normal. Salmonella is a true pathogen. The mere presence of it indicates subclinical disease – paratyphoid.
Salmonella can be carried and spread by rodents, wild birds, or other pigeons. It is passed mainly by their droppings, contaminating feed, but it can be passed other ways, such as in the egg.
On of the most common ways to get paratyphoid in the loft is from infected new pigeons introduced from another loft. You can obtain healthy looking pigeons from another loft, put them in your loft, and they start an infection or become infected. It’s just loft dynamics, and not completely understood. I think strays should never be allowed in the loft, whether it is common pigeons or someone else’s race bird. Segregate them, as well as your own birds that have been lost for several days immediately.
Many outbreaks occur in the breeding loft, late in the breeding season. The birds involved in reproduction reach a weakened state of health because of the severe drain on their body, (1) producing eggs in the female, and (2) producing crop milk in either sex. There is a drain on the body’s immune complexes, or immunoglobulins, during breeding. These are the globulins that are involved in the antibody production. Since so many of these immunoglobulins are incorporated into the yolk and crop milk, it depletes the body’s reserves and makes the immune system more vulnerable.
Classical paratyphoid is often seen in breeding cocks, where a cock gets sick and dies very rapidly. The bird looks fine one day and dead the next. This is a fulminating form that, for some reason, we see more in cocks than in hens. It’s not all in cocks, but it tends to be more prolonged, they often go light and show more classical symptoms including severe weight loss, mucoid “sticky stools, wing boils and liver diseases”.
Other symptoms to look for that make us suspicious of paratyphoid are eggs that seem to “go rotten”. These eggs initially have a developing embryo, but then it dies. These are the eggs that turn black usually. It’s not they are infertile; if they were infertile they would be clear the whole time. The embryo is killed by the infection. The salmonella organism can be on the surface of the egg from being laid by an infected female, or it can actually be incorporated inside the egg, during egg production.
Another classical sign of paratyphoid is youngsters that begin pipping but fail to hatch – “dying in the shell”. This is a major symptom of paratyphoid. It can happen for other reasons, but this should make you suspicious, if you get more than one youngster who can’t complete the pipping process.
Other symptoms to look for with salmonella are youngsters dying in the nest at an early age, especially between 7and 10 days of age. These youngsters usually develop diarrhea and show sighs of dehydration, where the skin gets dark red in color and it loses its healthy look.
Frequently, in a nest of two, one will get sick and die within a few days, while the other one will act perfectly healthy. This is not uncommon with paratyphoid. I think it just means that one did not receive an infective dose. Merely sitting in the nest is not enough to infect it. I don’t think salmonella penetrates the intact skin. I think it is usually ingested.
The other symptoms are sore wing or leg joints, but swelling is not always present, as may believe. It is caused by an inflammation. Salmonella gets into the bloodstream and often localizes in the joint. Classically, the joint that swells is the elbow joint, where you get the typical wing boil. This is very characteristic of salmonellosis or paratyphoid. Sometimes it seems the birds has a tender foot, and will be seen limping around. Often it’s paratyphoid. Other gram negatives such as E. coli and Citrobacter can do this, but the odds are that it’s paratyphoid. Limping can also be caused from physical injury, but if it’s persistent, and if more than one bird is limping, you had better suspect paratyphoid.
Sometimes with paratyphoid, you’ll see tilted head or the twisted neck. A bird with this symptom more frequently has PMV, which can be differentiated from paratyphoid. Paratyphoid can cause micro-abscesses in the brain, resulting in these symptoms. When these birds are agitated, the symptoms don’t worsen. With PMV, when you stimulate the birds, their symptoms become exaggerated. Another symptom common to paratyphoid and PMV is watery droppings, but there is a difference. With PMV, the droppings are clear fluid, which is urine, with squiggles of fairly normal looking feces in it. That’s not true diarrhea. It’s called diuresis.
With paratyphoid, if they develop the diarrhea from, it produces true diarrhea, in which case the stool is actually the liquid part. It usually has a lot of mucous. Sometimes you’ll see little gas bubbles. Sometimes the droppings will have blood, a strange colour and a smell to it, as well.
Other symptoms are weight loss, called “going light”. The two most common things to cause pigeons to go light are paratyphoid and severe worm infestations, especially stomach wall worms, and sometimes, capillaria worms. Worms are easy to rule in or out, and if you can rule them out, odds are it is paratyphoid causing the birds to go light, especially in breeding individuals. Blindness in one eye or both eyes could be a symptom of paratyphoid; so can loss of color in one or both irises.
Trying to identify birds in the loft that are not visibly sick but remain carriers or shedders is extremely difficult. It involves culturing individual pigeons. For some reason, in infected pigeons, salmonella often is difficult to culture out. It’s a fickly organism and you can end up with negative cultures when, in fact, it is still the cause of the disease being investigated. This is further complicated because salmonella is shed intermittently. You can’t take a negative culture to mean the bird is negative for the disease. You have to culture successively, many times, to finally fell comfortable that a bird is not a carrier. It becomes impractical so it’s rarely done.

Prevention
Salmonella can reproduce in the environment. It can live in the liter and soil contaminated with feces. It can live in the environment for a while, but not as well as it can live in the host.
We know that salmonella does not like an acidic environment. By acidifying the environment, it decreases the spread. Sulfur acidifies, so the sodium acid sulfate loft dressings are an aid in the control. Putting alkaline substances down, such as lime, has been suggested in old journal, actually can create an environment conducive to salmonella growth.
Salmonella can be transmitted through drinking water contaminated with feces. A teaspoon of Clorox (household bleach) in the drinking water has been used in lofts that had problems with paratyphoid, and it seems to help arrest the problem. My theory is that the Clorox creates an acid environment in the droppings. Chlorine is excreted through the kidneys, and combined with hydrogen; it makes the urine very acid. This in incorporated in the droppings in the cloaca. The drawback is that Clorox, in all animals, has toxic potential. Personally, I take it out of the water I drink before I drink it. When using bleach in the drinking water never add anything else to it. It is a potent oxidizer and can change other chemicals, sometimes creating toxic substances.
Vaccination is the best aid we have in dealing with paratyphoid. Paratyphoid vaccination cannot give 100% protection, as can PMV vaccination and pox vaccination. Paratyphoid vaccination, because it uses killed bacteria, can only produce a 70% - 80% protective effect.
A booster increases the odds. I recommend, just like I do the PMV, vaccinating all of your young birds as soon as they are all gathered, then vaccinate everything again, just before pairing your breeders.

Treatment
There is no treatment guaranteed to cure paratyphoid. There are some that give treatments a higher degree of success than others. The treatments usually involve a good antibiotic, the best probably being Baytril. The next best is Cephalexin or Amoxicillin. In treating paratyphoid, pigeons should be dosed for a minimum of 10 days and, in an outbreak situation, it helps to vaccinate while they’re on antibiotics. Vaccination does not have a curative affect in birds already infected, although it does stimulate their immune response to salmonella, so it has benefit.
Baytril is fairly harsh on pigeons, especially the liver. For that reason I don’t recommend training hard or racing while birds are on Baytril treatment. Amoxycillin and Cephalexin are easier on the pigeons, but ideally, you should skip a week of training if you are treating. Birds on the race team become poor performers, due to lack of vigor.

In severe outbreak cases, you don’t overcome paratyphoid immediately. You have to “work your way through it.” Sometimes, it takes several years of a good vaccination program, monitoring and having follow up treatments. But with diligence, you can work your way through it and do just fine.


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## feralpigeon

upcd said:


> Paratyphoid
> 
> 
> .......Blindness in one eye or both eyes could be a symptom of paratyphoid; so can loss of color in one or both irises.


Hi Debbie,

I'm curious about this statement in regards to the loss of color in one or both irises. Is that as in a ring of white or light color around the remaining colored portion of the iris, a complete loss of color or whatever other description you could give in this area of your post would be appreciated!

Thanks,

fp


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## Pidgey

Debbie... I don't think I've ever seen you say so much at a single whack before! I agree that it's probably a lot more prevalent than we know and there are enough differences in the strains that it presents a bewildering variety of symptoms. Worse, "vertical transmission" (when the disease starts in the egg) can cause the pathogen to change its character and symptoms. I read recently that L-forms should be treated with either Clindamycin or a combination of Erythromycin and Ampicillin (the older form of Amoxicillin) and the prognosis is still guarded.

Pidgey


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## upcd

*Greetings*

About the article, This was borrowed from a friend Frank Frail an Indain Fantial breeder. I had a roller change color in the eyes. Thought the bird was going blind, but after eye antiboitics. Color was restored. I am not one of many words but if I find a good report then I will bring it over. I will take your Questions over to My Family Site and see if I can get an anwser for you.


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## re lee

Some people have problems and some very few. The more out side birds are brought in. The more one shows birds or races birds. They get exposed. If a loft is prone to rodents exposer comes. Once you get it into the loft. Its there. and crops up from time to time. Now The oxine a h that I posted about. sounds to me like it will not only kill the problem But with use it will stop it from coming back. Then the birds are exposed less. Each loft has its sytstem and the birds bred in that loft have there imune system strong for that loft. Take the bird to a different loft. And they can carry desease to it that the other birds are not acustomed to. prevention starts in eveyones loft. And then birds are healthy. You will find some keepers that do poor management and have many sick birds. Stay clear from ever getting such birds from these people. In which often these people are dealers not breeders. Now raecing people expose in crowded transport during the raceseason there loft birds to many other outside birds. So a healthy loft program preventive care should be in place. One of the main problems is over crowding race birds in the loft. Now concepts of air exchange can increase number kept. As long as good perch space is right. Air exchange times Good management sees less sickness. With a vaccine now days less birds show sighns . But people who practice a good program have far less problems and many have never used a vaccine. acv garlic. vit, good feed fresh air sunlight for the loft. rodent protection anmd a key never over feed the birds to the point where spilled feed lays on the loft floor to be soiled and eaten. Plus attract rodents.


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## Skyeking

upcd I am not one of many words but if I find a good report then I will bring it over. [/QUOTE said:


> Debbie,
> 
> Thank you for sharing your wealth of first hand information on Paratyphoid, I hope you don't mind me moving your post to the appropriate thread. Thanks again for all your time spent on it.
> 
> 
> 
> re lee
> 
> Thanks for sharing your insight, as well.


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## relofts

*Vacinating with Salbac*

We vaccinate our racers and breeders with the Salbac, PMV, and Pox and have not had a problem with performance following, of course this is after the suggested waiting period you wouldn't want to vaccinate then train, there is normaly a 14 to 28 day waiting period after vaccination that you wait before you start letting the birds out to train. The things that we have noticed is that with the PMV no side effects, the Pox occasionally you will one or two that do not take and so you will get a few pox lesions and those birds are re-vacinated, the Salbac a slight what I will call flu like symptoms for a couple of days about 5 to 7 days after given and then they perk back up, I actually thought that after that time frame the birds looked better and so we continue to use the vaccine on our race birds.

Ellen


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## Tayyiba

*Worried!*



WhiteWingsCa said:


> If you are using only the PMV-1 vaccine for pigeons, then all you are vaccinating for is PMV - not paratyphoid. Different virus, different vaccine. Reading through your post, I *think* you mean that you vaccinate for PMV at 4-5 weeks, then paratyphoid/pox at 8-9 weeks, then the PMV booster ?
> 
> That is how most people who vaccinate for all three do it, I believe. PMV vaccine itself is a two shot series for YB's.


I figured out theres a difference between PMV and paratyphoid, but the signs my birds got is a little different.
Story:
1st it started with young birds that the 1st one got his head twisted -thats PMV right? But he had bad breath and yellow stuff at the back of his mouth - Canker right? his droppings were dark watery green and smelled(paratyphoid right?), he lost his balance(PMV right), then sat like he could not walk at all, he died about 3 weeks ago. Then his brother/sister, had only lost balance(PMV), then died and his last droppings were white egg white colour which when dried cracked up, it seemed. Then another bird lost flight(?), then kept him for around 3 days, fed him wild-bird seed, he only had the droppings which were egg white colour which when dried cracked up, he only showed those symptoms. Then a White bird who I saw seemed sick so I climbed to catch, I thought at the time PMV which I gave treatment, but he died next morning. I opened his beak to check and no Canker, he never loose balance, only the white cracked up droppings. Then another pet, who the night before was desperate for water, which I gave her, the next day(yesterday) she died. In her house the Droppings were geen(normal) which might have come from her mate. After she died I noticed the white cracked droppings. 

Now I'm Worried, I think I am only treating for Canker and PMV. The sign of the birds that die of paratyphoid are the droppings which are white, flat surface and once it dries it breaks up. I'm not sure if it has a smell. The problem is if I notice the white droppings, the next day the birds dead. The birds so far in these cases wanted water mostly. The most recent bird that died was frantic for water and flew up and down which made me think she was fine, because of he mates droppings I never notice her white droppings.

I watched all the birds for a while yesterday, all seemed to eat, which is the test I am using to determine if paratyphoid is present in them.

will someone tell me if my reasonings above are correct. I will ask the vet for Baytril or Cephalexin or Amoxicillin. someone stated that it isnt the cure, but will It help if given to a Infected bird which seems to die the next day. Also should I give it to her mate and others even though they dont seem to have it?


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## relofts

Try looking up Circo Virus, Adeno Virus, Young bird sickness, you could have a very serious problem going on, if it is in fact Circo virus then what you are seeing could be a secondary infection to the Circo Virus which is common in the disease and it is quite deadly to pigeons, it would be best if you were able to get one to a state lab to have a necropsy done in order to hopefully stop any further deaths or at least know what you are treating for. In the circo virus it has been found that you should treat with a preventative antibiotics frequently as well as provide elderberry in the water at 2 capsuls to a gallon of water as this will assist in building the imunity up, Circo Virus is similar to AIDS in humans, it attacks the system and makes the bird very vulnerable to secondary illness, until the birds are 6 months old the bursa has not grown together to build the immunity so this makes them a open target for the diseases, as I said before it would be best if you had the necropsy done if possible to see what you are dealing with, Circo Virus can not be determined in a bird that is alive.

Ellen


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## WhiteWingsCa

Tayyiba:

No, antibiotics will not 'cure' a bird with PMV - PMV is a _*virus*_, and medications do nothing to kill viruses. Antibiotics kill bacteria, that is it.

If a bird dies the day after you start giving it antibiotics - it's not because of the antibiotic - the bird was about to die anyway. All antibiotics will do is help the birds make it through any secondary infections, which often occur due to the weakened condition of the bird.

Circo virus is a possibility. Apparently, it drains the immune system, opening up the birds to a host of other problems, including PMV and canker
http://members.aol.com/duiven/circo.htm

The problem with so many viruses in pigeons is that some of the symptoms from one disease to another are so similar.

PMV can cause all the symptoms you describe - including the excessive drinking http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/disease/pigeons.htm

Yes, fecal matter from PMV infected birds smells - and is dark green and watery. Some birds with paratyphoid will develop neurological problems (twisted neck, off balance, etc.) But that is more common in PMV. Paratyphoid also presents symtoms of wing paralysis, 'boils' on the wing, and stiff legs or joints - often resulting in limping. http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

Paratyphoid is a _bacterial_ infection - and CAN be treated with antibiotics.

Canker requires a different medication altogether. What are you using to treat right now?


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## Tayyiba

*Pictures*

There was lots of rain, we washed the entire yard with detol or savlon(hopefully its acidic)

Theres hardly traces of extreta enywhere. I mentioned Baytil and the 2 other options stated in the article to the bird shop, they wont sell unless on prescription or they have to see the bird, how am I going to take the whole lot, I dont know who's got it!

Someone plz send you email address, this place wont let me upload the pictures cause they too big, its pictures of the extreta and 1 of the birds


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## lawman

Hi there, the following link should help out, http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Lawman


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## re92346mos

I did not know there was a vaccine for Paratyphoid? please clue me in on this vaccine I havent heard of. Thank Rena


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## re92346mos

I live by Oxine! Its the best I have found for spraying loft, birds, water, nest and you can sure breath alot better after spraying it. So you know its really benefitting the birds. I would like to know where to get a fogger, but I just put it in a spray bottle and spray everything birds included. It is a must to use. I like it more than Nolvasan. I still will wash out my loft with Nolvasan, but Oxine is a must if you just want to spray loft and everything in it.


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## relofts

Go to one of the pigeon house websites, Jedds, Siegels, or global and look at the SalBac Vaccine, make sure when you use it the birds are not sick, I have found that after the birds have been given the vaccine that they do get a little down for a couple of days and then they all seem to perk out of it and look great.

Ellen


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## re92346mos

All these diseases, I only vaccinate for PMV, treat for canker, worms. Thats it. I have never had a bird with a wing boil, pox. Canker yes. I bird I got from back East died on me once, that stumped me I do not know what was wrong with him. I find the best thing is do not overcrowd your birds and do not introduce new birds in your loft. Clean the water put a squirt of Oxine in it, spray Oxine and everythings fine.


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## relofts

Have you all heard of Virkon, I was on one of the roller groups and they were telling me about it, looks to be maybe the new wave of things coming out that works really well from what I can see.

http://www.homelandsecurity-equipment.com/VirkonProductCatalog.htm
1/4 teaspoon for the birds in the drinking water
up to a teaspoon in the cleaning water when solution has been mixed according to directions from the pigeon roller guys.

There is a minimum order requirement of $25, but I understand it goes quite far.

Ellen


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## re92346mos

Ellen, I couldnt find your Vikron post, but yes there are some guys in our club trying it out for the first time now. I will let you know the results. But Oxine is GOOOOOOD!


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## white flight

Hi all!

Virkon or Virkon S as we know it here in SA is an excellent virucidal disinfectant tested against at least 18 major viruses families, one being paramyxoviridae. 

It can be given at a very low dosage in the drinking water but I use it mainly as a loft scrub at the rate of 50g/10l water.

The only and best way to treat paramyxo and salmonella / paratyphoid is via innoculation with the appropriate vaccine! 

In SA, PMV 1 is popular for paramyxo as well as as Novibac and Columbovac. Talovac 303 is also suggested. Don't know if it is available in your country. The best people to ask are the turkey farmers as they are up to date with all the latest and tested vaccines!

La Sota is not recommended as it only lasts for a short time!

The best for Salmonella is Chevivac-S (injectable) and lasts for 12 months! 

Regards, and remember antibiotics can't kill these viruses. You must build-up the pigeons immune system.

white flight ZA


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## white flight

Hi there!

Especially to Terry!

Sorry, you are VERY correct, salmonella/paratyphoid IS A BACTERIA NOT A VIRUS!

Hope I've not misled anyone into doing anything brash?

However, for safety sake, here in SA some fanciers do vaccinate for paratyphoid/salmonella using Chevita Chevivac-S or Autogenous 2 vaccine!

It prevents using antibiotics as a preventative alternate!

If we do have to use an antibitioc it would be Furaltadone 15mg tablets. 1 Tab per bird for 5 -7 days!

Regards.

white flight ZA


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## Julien

Hello,

One of my friends call me up and told me he touched the bone of one of his good racing homer when vaccinate with PMV.

The pigeon isn't going very well. Is there something he can do?

Julien


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## Lovebirds

Julien said:


> Hello,
> 
> One of my friends call me up and told me he touched the bone of one of his good racing homer when vaccinate with PMV.
> 
> The pigeon isn't going very well. Is there something he can do?
> 
> Julien


Where did he vaccinate? The neck or leg?


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## feralpigeon

Julien said:


> Hello,
> 
> One of my friends call me up and told me he touched the bone of one of his good racing homer when vaccinate with PMV.
> 
> The pigeon isn't going very well. Is there something he can do?
> 
> Julien


Was your friend vaccinating more than one at once and reusing the needle? If so, the bird may need a round of antibiotics....

fp


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## white flight

*Vaccine*

Hi there!

Firstly, establish where on the body he vaccinated?

I presume he used a needle?

Secondly, did he swab the needle with surgical spirits after each injection?

Third possibility is that the bird was already infected and has now developed the "full blown" disease because of the vaccination and if this is the case I recommend ten days of Baytril drops down the throat of that particular bird.

A word of caution - it is the recommendation of the cultivars of vaccines not to use a / their vaccine if a pigeon shows symptoms of that particular disease being vaccinated for. 

It is also highly recommended to give the birds a course of antibiotics, e.g. Doxybiotic or Terramycin before the first time of vaccination.

With the booster later this is not necessary.

Hope all goes well!

white flight ZA.


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## white flight

*Paramyxo Virus - PMV 1 Vaccine*

Hi Guys!

DON'T mess with this virus! It will ruin your entire race loft and even stock loft if left untreated!!

NO Baytril or any other antibiotic will cure this dreaded virus. It only suppresses the other bacteria waiting to take over a weakened immune system of the infected pigeon!!

ONLY an innoculation/vaccination at approximately 3 - 4 weeks old (with PMV 1 vaccine) followed by a booster at about 8 weeks old will form the necessary immunity. There are so many sub-clinical diseases such as young bird disease, circo, herpes, paratyphoid diseases that attack the birds immune system once paranmyxo is contracted.

Do all your birds when doing the booster.

You can race about 4 weeks again after the booster BUT do provide pro-biotics once vaccinated.

Only vaccinate healthy specimens.

Thats all.

white flight ZA


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## superflyer

*Excellent Pigeon Talk Article*

I read an excellent article here on paratyphoid pigeon talk. The author said just about all pigeons carry Paratyphoid and the only birds that get sick are the ones the are stressed do to malnutrition or worn down for some other reason. I found this to be true. I brought home a sick feral. Two of my birds that were raising babies got sick. I gave them extra food, fed the babies and the illness disappeared. The babies and all my other birds were fine. I bought drugs but did not use them.


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## Skyeking

superflyer said:


> I read an excellent article here on paratyphoid pigeon talk. The author said just about all pigeons carry Paratyphoid and the only birds that get sick are the ones the are stressed do to malnutrition or worn down for some other reason. I found this to be true. I brought home a sick feral. Two of my birds that were raising babies got sick. I gave them extra food, fed the babies and the illness disappeared. The babies and all my other birds were fine. I bought drugs but did not use them.


I'm glad you appreciated this thread. 

Did you actually get a diagnosis?

We stress the importance of getting birds innoculated IF they come in contact with other birds, whether it's new birds that are introduced in the loft, or while on the way to a race, or during shows.

From your post I am reminded of the importance of isolating any new birds from your own birds for 5 weeks, prior to putting them in the same loft. I cannot stress the importance of this. You can completely bring their immune systems down from contact with a carrier, when the whole issue can be resolved thru innoculation. Prevention is key, not only innocluation but keeping the immune system in optimum performance thru nutrition, varied diet and healthy environment.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

white flight said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> DON'T mess with this virus! It will ruin your entire race loft and even stock loft if left untreated!!
> 
> NO Baytril or any other antibiotic will cure this dreaded virus. It only suppresses the other bacteria waiting to take over a weakened immune system of the infected pigeon!!
> 
> ONLY an innoculation/vaccination at approximately 3 - 4 weeks old (with PMV 1 vaccine) followed by a booster at about 8 weeks old will form the necessary immunity. There are so many sub-clinical diseases such as young bird disease, circo, herpes, paratyphoid diseases that attack the birds immune system once paranmyxo is contracted.
> 
> Do all your birds when doing the booster.
> 
> You can race about 4 weeks again after the booster BUT do provide pro-biotics once vaccinated.
> 
> Only vaccinate healthy specimens.
> 
> Thats all.
> 
> white flight ZA


Well....you may have forgotten to mention the 5 gallon buckets of dead pigeons you might have to haul out of your loft for several days if you don't vaccinate.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

white flight said:


> ..... The best people to ask are the turkey farmers as they are up to date with all the latest and tested vaccines!.....
> 
> white flight ZA


Yeah...but we ain't vaccinating turkeys. 

Are you suggesting these products were designed with turkeys in mind ?

I thought they were pretty specific to pigeons.


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## TAWhatley

*Salmonella Copenhagen Typhimurium ..*

Has proven to be absolutely deadly to a number of birds that came down here to So Cal from Nor Cal. These are King Pigeons. Many, many of these birds died up in Nor Cal without anyone really knowing what was wrong. Some number of them made their way down here to So Cal and the result has been devastating.

Don't mess with this stuff .. it's deadly and has proven to be very difficult to treat.

Terry


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## white flight

Hi there!

Most vaccines are tested on poultry because their viruses can mutate and therefore "hop" onto our beloved racing pigeons. So as a starting point and because I do not suspect there are "prize-winning" turkeys or other poultry destined for human consumption, this is the best testing ground!

It makes it easier if you have a basis to work from similar to the one you are going to use it on!

Thats all.

Pigeon regards.

white flight za.


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## jpsnapdy

pigeonmama said:


> I give my birds PMV and Paratyphoid vaccine, and then booster shots 4 weeks later on both vaccines, young birds only. Birds previously vaccinated get only one shot of each. Master breeder of VF'S also told me that on the paratyphoid vaccine, I need to give it every 6 months. Nice thing about the paratyphoid vacc,it's easier to give than the PMV. I feel like i"m injecting Elmer's Glue when I give the PMV, it's so thick. OUCH !!!
> Daryl


What is VF?


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## PigeonElite

Another great article on Paratyphoid disease in pigeons and what fanciers should know,

http://www.worldpigeon.org/2009/11/what-should-a-fancier-know-about-paratyphoid/


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## anil_pigeon

What kinds of diseases cats bring to the loft? I have cats hanging outside at night and then in the morning my birds graze in the same area.


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## conditionfreak

A question I have is: I had one bird come down with paratyphoid seven months ago. I removed it and put it in an individual cage, and treated it with amoxicylin for two weeks. It did not seem to help. But as time went by, it got better and better and now seems to be completely healthy.

When it originally came down with the problem, it had one drooping wing and the elbow joint was swollen a lot. Not the wing does not droop and the swelling is gone completely. The bird looks, acts and feels healthy.

But it is my understanding that paratyphoid, even after being "cured" is always present in a bird that had "it". That those birds are carriers for the rest of their lives.

So, does this mean that I can never put that particular bird back in my loft? Does it mean that I can never race that bird again?


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## ace in the hole

conditionfreak said:


> A question I have is: I had one bird come down with paratyphoid seven months ago. I removed it and put it in an individual cage, and treated it with amoxicylin for two weeks. It did not seem to help. But as time went by, it got better and better and now seems to be completely healthy.
> 
> When it originally came down with the problem, it had one drooping wing and the elbow joint was swollen a lot. Not the wing does not droop and the swelling is gone completely. The bird looks, acts and feels healthy.
> 
> But it is my understanding that paratyphoid, even after being "cured" is always present in a bird that had "it". That those birds are carriers for the rest of their lives.
> 
> So, does this mean that I can never put that particular bird back in my loft? Does it mean that I can never race that bird again?


Not all birds that contract paratyphoid become carriers. If you keep your birds vaccinated every six months it should not be a problem.

If the bird appears to be in good health, I would say to train it out with the others and if it is comming in good in training send it to the races.

Ace


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## PigeonVilla

Baytril is the drug of choice that is used to help cure paratyphoid but there is more information here on it http://www.pigeonmania.com/salmonella-paratyphoid-in-pigeons/


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## donald campbell

Doogal said:


> I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.
> 
> Regards,
> Doogal


 Dr. k of copper beach loft has a new sal bac you should try all the top champions are using it . Don Campbell


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## vista

In what part of the body of the pigeon do you innoculate PMV vaccine? What is the dose?


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## rpalmer

vista said:


> In what part of the body of the pigeon do you innoculate PMV vaccine? What is the dose?


I do the webbing in the leg. 1/2 cc.


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## heavenly heights

This was very helpful, thank you, especially the last part where you say "you have to work through it." It gives me hope and encouragement. I have been very discouraged as of late. I have been struggling with it for a couple of years as a new flier -- with on and off treatment. I will try to be more aggressive and consistent with my treatment. Thank you again. Mark Gehrke


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## bdpigeons

*What do you mean by boosting?*



lawman said:


> I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)
> 
> Its oil base and is the best available here in the states.
> 
> I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards.
> 
> I wouldnt risk flying without it.


What do you mean boosting? How do you do that? Is it another round of vaccination of you give something else.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

bdpigeons said:


> What do you mean boosting? How do you do that? Is it another round of vaccination of you give something else.


Haven't you ever received a "Booster" shot ? That is the 2nd injection, as explained in directions label.


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## Alamo

Have had racing pigeons since 1984....Have raced and bred from these same birds and their children and grand children....None of my birds has ever had any injections for the prevention of ANY diseases,and they have never been sick with Pox or Paratyphoid...
*What am I doing wrong ??* ...........Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Alamo said:


> Have had racing pigeons since 1984....Have raced and bred from these same birds and their children and grand children....None of my birds has ever had any injections for the prevention of ANY diseases,and they have never been sick with Pox or Paratyphoid...
> *What am I doing wrong ??* ...........Alamo


 Same wrong thing that parents do, when they throw caution to the wind, and fail to provide their children immunizations for the various dangerous and sometimes deadly childhood diseases. You haven't been particularly smart, you just have been exceedingly lucky. 

My home has never burned down since it was built, but that does not mean that I do not have fire insurance, I have never died yet, but I still own life insurance. My home hasn't been broken into yet, but I still insure that locks are used. Once upon a time, polio was a real big deal, but once everyone started vaccinations, the disease has for all intensive purposes gone extinct. 

Now over the years, everyone started vaccinating for PMV and the illness has fallen into decline. There are of course owners who are not responsible, and put not only their birds at risk, but other owners as well. Just like the Mom who says her kids never got any disease's and thus sees no need to vaccinate. She puts not only her kids at risk, but the other children as well. Same with a pigeon fancier who does not care enough to provide good medical care for his birds, he puts us at risk. So, we require vaccinations in order to compete in racing. Just as parents are required to take their children for medical check ups for school in addition to vaccinations. This is after all the 2000's and not the middle ages.


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## Alamo

Warren,I will tell you a story about a pigeon guy....A great pigeon flyer...He had outstanding pigeons...But he could not keep them healthy without medications...If he didn`t medicate,they would get sick,and die...I don`t have that problem..It is not luck...It is building a strain of pigeons that will not get ill even if I do not medicate....If when I say I do not medicate my stock birds,or use injections on them,if I`m lying,my God strike me dead right now....I have said/told on this site,that I have gotten rid of pigeons that were gifted to me,which would not stay healthy,without me giving them medication....One such pigeon was a big time combine winner,with many diplomas...What good was this pigeon to me?? Why should I breed such a pigeon into my family if it CAN`t stay healthy....It only has to breed 2 rounds of babies for me ALL YEAR...That`s it....Have I purchased pigeons over the years...Yes,a few...They were not given any med`s...They looked healthy when I got them,so I saw no need to medicate them,or even my stock....Nobody died,nobody got sick...All pairs raise healthy babies...I try my best even to not give the Yb`s any meds...Only when it`s a few weekd before the 1st YB race,with I give a few days of the usual stuff everyone else is giving...My so called "LucK",as you said in your post could be that I have 40 perches,and only keep about 20/22 YB`s....In the OB section,I have 15 boxes...I only keep 8 to 10 pair...Have 7 pairs right now,because I sold 3 pairs this past week,since I will not be racing OB`s...I beleive keeping very few pigeons might be the key to my not having to medicate...I also am a STERN scraper in the loft...If I`m sitting out there with them for 2 or 3 hours,I probally go in the lofts and scrape 4 or 5 times....I can`t help it...I hate pigeon ****,on the floors,perches,and under my shoes...And since I keep only 32/34 pigeons over the winter,it`s easy to keep things clean...Then add 20 YB`s in May/June,and I only have 50/54 TOTAL pigeons...Easy to keep clean,and keep them healthy that way....The guys who have 200+ pigeons have all the problems,that go with have so many pigeons...Be it good or bad,they have it...They probally win alot more then most,but their pigeons get sick more then most...I have been told by a few about what problems they have...At least they are HONEST...They say they have pigeons getting sick,especially during training/racing...Alamo


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## ado1786

*help me please*

hi my pure white rock doves had eggs and I just wanted to know what age do I get them vaccinated and how to vaccinate them im new to pigeon keeping ive got pigeons 2 thanks


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## jafacanyan

Hello, I would like to know what are the diseases they carry that may be passed on to humans from pigeons, what type of vaccine or health check up are there; or required, are there more than one Vaccine? should you vaccinate as soon as a baby is born, can this be administer to pigeons by their owners? are there any types of vitamins and minerals to give. If your live in cold weather what are the potential illness pigeon might catch.


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## jafacanyan

jafacanyan said:


> Hello, I would like to know what are the diseases they carry that may be passed on to humans from pigeons, what type of vaccine or health check up are there; or required, are there more than one Vaccine? should you vaccinate as soon as a baby is born, can this be administer to pigeons by their owners? are there any types of vitamins and minerals to give. If your live in cold weather what are the potential illness pigeon might catch .


 Any advices?


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## John_D

Suggest you start your own thread, as it is a wider topic than just paratyphoid, rather than just posting on the end of another thread.


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## raye11

does anyone know how to post a thread? I'm new to this website...


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## Shadybug Lofts

Click on new thread at top left then fill it in and post it do it in the section you want .


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## renabailey

ado1786 said:


> hi my pure white rock doves had eggs and I just wanted to know what age do I get them vaccinated and how to vaccinate them im new to pigeon keeping ive got pigeons 2 thanks


3 weeks old you can give first vac, directions with vac. Either neck or between leg and body. You have to be carefull when giving in neck or you can kill them.


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