# Hawks!!!!



## 9toes (Apr 4, 2012)

When will they ever leave! Trying to train young birds, and i bet i have lost half my birds this year. Seems like they are worse than ever.


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## GrMike (Mar 13, 2014)

They might if youd quit feeding them lol. On a positve note though look at it as a kind of natural selection for your flock. Are they on your land if so you have a few options but that depends on where you live and how bad you want em gone.


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

Hang & place some cd's shiny part up around your loft that might help also you can shoot some bottle rockets in the air to scare them


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## GrMike (Mar 13, 2014)

Pollo70 said:


> Hang & place some cd's shiny part up around your loft that might help also you can shoot some bottle rockets in the air to scare them


Not a bad idea at all. I scare them away from my place all the time. I use .22 caliber flint tipped pellets in my air rifle..You shoot close to them and when the pellets hit they make a loud POP. Of course I live in the middle of no where and I can get away with that kinda stuff. But I would not recomend it for my more urban counterparts.


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

GrMike said:


> Not a bad idea at all. I scare them away from my place all the time. I use .22 caliber flint tipped pellets in my air rifle..You shoot close to them and when the pellets hit they make a loud POP. Of course I live in the middle of no where and I can get away with that kinda stuff. But I would not recomend it for my more urban counterparts.


4 sure I had a young cooper hawk this year show up after about a week of him coming around and chasing my old bird team around I pulled out some bottle rockets and would launch them by him in the air and after about 2 days of that he quit coming around I also replaced the CD's around my loft with new shiny ones that also helped. but they hate things that go Boom!


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## Squeaker slave (Jan 22, 2014)

Bottle rockets,what are they made of and how do you fire them,I've been cracking a whip but the birds have worked that out, HELP,,,,,,,,,,


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

Squeaker slave said:


> Bottle rockets,what are they made of and how do you fire them,I've been cracking a whip but the birds have worked that out, HELP,,,,,,,,,,


Its a artillery firework you place it in a upright bottle and light the fuse and it launches into the air about 80 ft and go boom! we live near Evanston Wyoming they sell fireworks. its a firecracker on a thin long stick.


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## GrMike (Mar 13, 2014)

Pollo70 said:


> Its a artillery firework you place it in a upright bottle and light the fuse and it launches into the air about 80 ft and go boom! we live near Evanston Wyoming they sale fireworks. its a firecracker on a thin long stick.


Do they sell fireworks in australia?


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## Squeaker slave (Jan 22, 2014)

GrMike said:


> Do they sell fireworks in australia?


Not any more,bugger


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

9toes said:


> When will they ever leave! Trying to train young birds, and i bet i have lost half my birds this year. Seems like they are worse than ever.


Alot of trees you way. Hawks might be a year around thing.. Letting your young birds out close to dark say 30 to and hour When they are younger Helps.. When the birds are up flying seems less get hit when sitting the loft or taking off They are easyer targets. So you might make sure the birds get up as soon as they are released and trap fast when they come down to the loft. But the younger young birds often will sit the loft and make short flights. Staying outside withewm helps. Anyway good luck


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

just trap the hawk, they have how to traps for hawk on you tube easy to make with chicken wire and a you chicken or a pigeon don't worry the pigeon will not be harm on these traps once you trapping but them in a box and fine out if someone is going way out of town like a tracker and give him a $20 to take your problem far away and let the hawk free or you could get a permit if that hawk is killing you live stock and put him down, yes they do have permit for that look it up, the first one is really against the law but you not harming him you just relocating him, the trap is call aBal-Chatri here a link 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnfuKjbm3Kc


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## flight (Dec 29, 2011)

be chttp://www.greenenvironmentnews.com/Environment/Wildlife/7+CALIFORNIA+%27ROLLER+PIGEON%27+ENTHUSIASTS+CHARGED+WITH+KILLING%2C+Oregon+HELPING+TO+KILL%2C+PROTECTED+HAWKS+AND+FALCONS


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## ~*The Dobson Loft~* (Apr 10, 2014)

*Two things to do...*

You could trap or shoot hawk. I would catch it with a wire cage. Research "Hawk Traps". There are plenty of ideas. If you shoot the hawk, use a slingshot (won't kill) or gun (will kill, hey, rymes!). This is basic info from, ~*The Dobson Loft~*!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's against the law to kill, injure, or trap them.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Very bad advice to shoot/trap hawks for just doing what they were put on earth to do. It is illegal, as Jay says, but also immoral. They have as much right to life as our pigeons. It is up to you to protect your birds in a way that does no harm to other species.

Also, it is against forum rules to discuss killing of any sort. Please refrain from any more conversations about it. There have been several other, more humane, ways mentioned. Try these.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

aLMODMAN THESE TRAPING IDEAS CAME FROM falconers THEMSELF SO IF THEY MAKING THESE TRAPS IT MEAN IT A GOOD TRAP NOT HARMING THEM , AND IT A GOOD WAY TO PROTECT OUR BIRD FROM THE HAWKS , YOU KNOW ONCE THEY FOUND A FOOD SOURCE THEY WILL KEEP COMING BACK , A PIGON KEEPER WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH HAWKS ONLY HAS TWO CHOOSE, SEE ALL HIS BIRDS BECOME HAWK FOOD OR JUST GIVE UP THE HOBBY , WHAT THE POINT OF KEEPING PIGEON IF YOU CANT FLY THEM , YOU MIGHT AS WELL START KEEPING CANARY, HAWK ARE REALLY BECOMING A PEST IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND WILL WILL BECOME WORSE IN THE FUTURE FOR US PIGEON KEEPERS, HOPEFULLY THE GOV WILL DO SOMETHING SOON TO SLOW DOWN THERE NUMBERS LIKE TAKEN THERE EGGS AWAY FROM THEIR NEST, FUNNY THAT A LOT OF LAND ANIMALS DONT HAVE THAT PROTECTION AS THE BIRD OF PRAY DO, LIKE THE RARE BUFFALO AND WILD Mustangs IF THEY ARE TOO MANY IN A AREA THEY ARE PUT DOWN AND BECOME DOG FOOD, HAWKS ARE USELESS BIRDS OF THE SKY AND THEY ACT MORE LIKE SHARKS THEN BIRDS, MY 2 CENTS WORTH , AND WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THERE OTHER HUMANE WAYS, COULD YOU LINK THEM PLZ?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I think trapping hawks you have to have some kind of permit. There was a time a person could protect there birds. But now hawks are protected. So those days are gone. A person has to become a little smarter on how they train and release there birds. And still they get hit. BUT not as much. i can remember when there really was not a hawk problem. IN many areas. As the hwak numbers were down. And using some simple thought. The natural food supply for these hawks is down also And the hawk numbers go up. But every one has to live with this as one thing. NATURE is that we can not really complain about it but have to learn to live with it. THAT is the good thing about nature it rules in it natural state And humans Should understand nature is what life really is Not what they want


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Rafael/PR said:


> aLMODMAN THESE TRAPING IDEAS CAME FROM falconers THEMSELF SO IF THEY MAKING THESE TRAPS IT MEAN IT A GOOD TRAP NOT HARMING THEM , AND IT A GOOD WAY TO PROTECT OUR BIRD FROM THE HAWKS , YOU KNOW ONCE THEY FOUND A FOOD SOURCE THEY WILL KEEP COMING BACK , A PIGON KEEPER WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH HAWKS ONLY HAS TWO CHOOSE, SEE ALL HIS BIRDS BECOME HAWK FOOD OR JUST GIVE UP THE HOBBY , WHAT THE POINT OF KEEPING PIGEON IF YOU CANT FLY THEM , YOU MIGHT AS WELL START KEEPING CANARY, HAWK ARE REALLY BECOMING A PEST IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND WILL WILL BECOME WORSE IN THE FUTURE FOR US PIGEON KEEPERS, HOPEFULLY THE GOV WILL DO SOMETHING SOON TO SLOW DOWN THERE NUMBERS LIKE TAKEN THERE EGGS AWAY FROM THEIR NEST, FUNNY THAT A LOT OF LAND ANIMALS DONT HAVE THAT PROTECTION AS THE BIRD OF PRAY DO, LIKE THE RARE BUFFALO AND WILD Mustangs IF THEY ARE TOO MANY IN A AREA THEY ARE PUT DOWN AND BECOME DOG FOOD, HAWKS ARE USELESS BIRDS OF THE SKY AND THEY ACT MORE LIKE SHARKS THEN BIRDS, MY 2 CENTS WORTH , AND WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THERE OTHER HUMANE WAYS, COULD YOU LINK THEM PLZ?


Falconers need special permits to live trap hawks. And to keep them. Then they use the birds for the sport of falconry, not to catch and release long distances from their nests, where they are possibly taking care of their own young. I am sorry you have such a low regard for other species of birds, but that is your problem. I stand by what I say. And you just need to re-read the other posts here to see alternative methods. Many times other wild animals are put down to prevent starvation, and disease control if the herds get to large to be supported in certain areas. Not just to slaughter them for dog food. AND WHY THE CAPITAL LETTERS? no need to get belligerent.


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## pigeonboy (Apr 7, 2014)

It is illegal to capture or kill a hawk,possess a raptor (living or dead), or any pieces or parts of raptors, including feathers, without proper permits from state and if you shoot at a hawk the punishment can be up to 10,000 dollars and at least 5 years in a federal penetentary so I suggest that you just hang some shiny things up like pie pans and hope for the best.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

in the United States you can apply for a permit to trap birds of pray or the game department will trap them for you if they are killing pets and are being a nuisance. just have to talk to your wildlife and game department.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

This may be true, but as many of us have found out, most government agencies do not think much of pigeons, let alone thinking they are pets. It might prove rather hard to get a permit to trap hawks for taking pigeons as pets, or as nuisances. They are more likely to trap the pigeons.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

pigeonboy said:


> It is illegal to capture or kill a hawk,possess a raptor (living or dead), or any pieces or parts of raptors, including feathers, without proper permits from state and if you shoot at a hawk the punishment can be up to 10,000 dollars and at least 5 years in a federal penetentary so I suggest that you just hang some shiny things up like pie pans and hope for the best.





spirit wings said:


> in the United States you can apply for a permit to trap birds of pray or the game department will trap them for you if they are killing pets and are being a nuisance. just have to talk to your wildlife and game department.





almondman said:


> This may be true, but as many of us have found out, most government agencies do not think much of pigeons, let alone thinking they are pets. It might prove rather hard to get a permit to trap hawks for taking pigeons as pets, or as nuisances. They are more likely to trap the pigeons.





re lee said:


> I think trapping hawks you have to have some kind of permit. There was a time a person could protect there birds. But now hawks are protected. So those days are gone. A person has to become a little smarter on how they train and release there birds. And still they get hit. BUT not as much. i can remember when there really was not a hawk problem. IN many areas. As the hwak numbers were down. And using some simple thought. The natural food supply for these hawks is down also And the hawk numbers go up. But every one has to live with this as one thing. NATURE is that we can not really complain about it but have to learn to live with it. THAT is the good thing about nature it rules in it natural state And humans Should understand nature is what life really is Not what they want


LOTS of good thoughts here (and more posts below). 

*Please grant me a few mins of your time*. I'm not against you... but let me add some perspective some_ may _be missing.... 

First in my albeit long winded post, I'd like to address the falconers - you just might find this interesting if you can hang with me...

I lived next to a falconer, so I do know a good part of their process, and have other friends who are falconer's not close to me. When I say NEXT to me, I mean, the property NEXT DOOR. (I say lived as he has moved to another state due to his job). Can you imagine the partnership you must have for living next door to a neighbor who raises the birds you hate, fear, and maybe not fully understand?

These fine folks love their species of birds as much as we love ours PERIOD. - and should be commended for their love and taking care of their birds. I know that is very hard for many to stomach but it's true. 

Here -- IN THE USA, they are subject to FEDERAL LAWS for the way their hawk/ falconry quarters are not only built, but design, and cleanliness --- trust me when I say we don't have fed's making spot check on some of us, is a good thing.... They have special FED LIC they must apply for, taking tough tests before even being allowed to hold one in captivity- this includes the spouse or they too can NOT care for the bird if the licence holder is gone for some reason, but may with physical supervision at all times.

Most feed their hawks store bought meat if they are not able to 'fly' their birds for whatever reason -- anything from weather to availability to fly them safely for the bird's health, there are many reasons. Others simply prefer to feed this way vs picking out 'wildlife'. You think pigeon food is expensive? Try feeding raw meat to these guys... 

Many 'train' their birds for sport which includes (and is certainly not limited too - rabbit, grouse, etc. They aren't training them for your pigeons). 

IF they choose to go on vacation, guess what? NOT just anyone can take care of their bird!! It MUST be another licenced person holding the proper licence by the feds!! You may hold a lic for one 'type' of falcon/hawk, but not be able to hold a specific type of hawk of another kind. There are 'levels' within the licence til other tests are passed, and often they MUST apprentice under other well scholared and long term lic holders before being granted a licence! Thank goodness we don't have that scrutiny eh?

It is very true, you may not (in the USA) bring harm to a falcon/hawk. This would include maiming (even by accident) by slingshot or the like... You must hold a license to trap, kill, etc, these fine birds. Whoooaaa???? DID I JUST SAY THAT???? Yes, as Re lee said, you must bow to the circle of life... there is a higher power of life... It is also true that you may *NOT KEEP ANY PART OR PARTS *of a falcon or hawk without licence. _INCLUDING FEATHERS from even 'road kill'. It's a FEDERAL OFFENSE._

*My suggestion, if you find yourself in a position as Almondman appears to be -*- work with neighbors who have dogs under 30 lbs. The dogs - especially the small lap dogs, are often prey to these raptors. SO they'd (raptors) prefer the dog over a small pigeon. They simply swoop down and remove the dog from the backyard -- OFTEN IN FRONT OF THE DOG OWNER!! Find these folks!! Work with them to work with the FEDS to trap, relocate, keep numbers in check, etc of the hawks. They will have a hard time hearing our 'pigeon cries' but they are more responsive to the cries of a dog owner. *Collaborate with the dog owners... you'll go farther.*

Unfortunately for the heart of a pigeon owner, the pigeons, are taken. If you can not handle the loss of a particular bird/s then best not to fly them. Some (myself included) prefer to look at this as a part of the circle of life, and thus, natural selection. And it IS HARD on my heart too... I have what I have left (including white homers) due to their passed on skills from hawks. It's a tough 'game' to have pigeons if you let them out. 

Many things can and do happen -- including Hawks (personally I have everything from
Buteos - rough legged hawks, Ferruginous, redtails, 
Harriers, Accipiters Cooper's, northern goshawk, 
Falcons - peregrine, prairie, merlins, kestrel, 
EAGLES - Goldens, Bald, Ospreys 
and Turkey vultures
-- JUST TO NAME A FEW IN MY ' HOOD....., 

high winds, cats, ferrets (I have them in the yard every night!!), coyotes, bears (both Griz and Black for me in particular), badgers, skunks, etc etc etc... my personal list is near endless and I won't drag you through more...


*I hope my long winded thoughts have helped everyone to gain some perspective from other sections within this circle of life... Sorry I was not able to be more brief, but I did feel it was very important to address the issue, and help give some constructive - and legal, thoughts.*


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Good post silver wings. When I was young about 12 years old. I could BUY hawks or eagles from the local ZOO. I bought to hawks. Tamed them as pets. Never released them . But my neighbors Killed them. thought they were a bad sighn. Why I do not know they were full bloods And these were not owls When i said full bloods I said native americans. As a native you can get permission to have eagle and hawk feathers. BUT only with approvel.Nature really is simple. Yet hard. the idea is to survive. Meaning to many to hunt the food.. We are lucky to have came so far from the old life. To not have to hunt the food To eat. But all the wild still must So the hawk is only a hunter. And there are ways to be smarter. Sure it gets you mad. But what can really be done it is the way of life nature


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

re lee said:


> Good post silver wings.
> Why I do not know they were full bloods And these were not owls When i said full bloods I said native americans. As a native you can get permission to have eagle and hawk feathers. BUT only with approvel.
> Nature really is simple. Yet hard. the idea is to survive. Meaning to many to hunt the food.. We are lucky to have came so far from the old life. To not have to hunt the food To eat. But all the wild still must So the hawk is only a hunter. And there are ways to be smarter. Sure it gets you mad. But what can really be done it is the way of life nature


Thanks Re lee. You are correct, balance is essential, and often difficult. Sometimes part of the difficulties is having a balanced perspective.

You say "Native" which in my area can mean a few things. Ones born with in my area, or one of the Indian - Native American Culture / Tribe. I live between many different Indian - Native American Tribes who reside (mostly) on reservations. Not all of the "Indians" get along. Many tribes have far reaching disagreements. 

But there are many fundamentals they believe in as a core. and YES they are allowed privileges the "white man" (and other cultures) are not given, given their "Indian" heritage. I did not bring this into further play (talk) as I was already pretty long winded, and know that those of this culture know they have additional rights regarding these creatures.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you for your post Silver Wings. It should be apparent to all that there is no tried and true way to deal with birds of prey. It is part of "the cycle of life" we must deal with if we are going to keep animals/birds of any kind. Pigeons are not the only prey animal taken by hawks/eagles, etc. I'm sure everyone who has ever lost an animal to one feels just as hopeless as the folks here on PT.

But we must keep in mind that these birds have a place in nature too. Without them, the rodent, snake, and even some larger animal populations could explode. Others, such as raccoons, skunks, possum, etc. could soon become a much bigger problem than the hawks. And after reading all the heart breaking stories in this forum, I would guess that these other critters have caused more pigeon deaths than hawks. IMO.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Silver Wings said:


> Thanks Re lee. You are correct, balance is essential, and often difficult. Sometimes part of the difficulties is having a balanced perspective.
> 
> You say "Native" which in my area can mean a few things. Ones born with in my area, or one of the Indian - Native American Culture / Tribe. I live between many different Indian - Native American Tribes who reside (mostly) on reservations. Not all of the "Indians" get along. Many tribes have far reaching disagreements.
> 
> But there are many fundamentals they believe in as a core. and YES they are allowed privileges the "white man" (and other cultures) are not given, given their "Indian" heritage. I did not bring this into further play (talk) as I was already pretty long winded, and know that those of this culture know they have additional rights regarding these creatures.


I did mean indian. But used the native american Idea. A person applies for say an eagle. The wildlife dept approves it. They wait when one dies or is killed the bird can be sent to them. Must be a tribal member of a reconized tribe. You used the word culture. That is part of my culture


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

THIS is to Relee , Almodman and and silver wings to what Balance are you talking about? That got blow away by us Humans long ago and it will be getting worse , there is no more balance , everyday as we speak huge amount of forest is are going down even in the lsland i live which is only 100 miles long is gettig strap naked for more house and more malls and this goes for all around the world also, wild animal are getting bolder and they have no choose but to hunt for food that was not meant for them , instead they are attacking our live stock and our pets and cases of kids being kill and eaten alive i am not talking about bird of pray here alone ,but mountain lion, bears ,poison snakes and wolfs, we upset the balance of nature, birds of pray dont have any predator to put a cap on their numbers ,here a perfect example in the early 1900 there was a estimated 500,000 white-tailed deer in the United States.,since we kill off the wolfs , mountain lion , bear , bob cat , fl panda, guess what? their Population now is over 20,000,000 and climbing, same thing is happening to the birds of pray their number are growing and sooner or later your fed will have to put a cap on them like they do with wild horses and BUFFALO , when big birds of pray start attacking kids either the feds will have to do something or fathers and mother will start buying 10 Ga and take care of business , and you know im telling the truth if that happens ,so plz dont say there is balance in nature , that been shot to hell and we are responsible for it , and our pigeon and pet are paying for it right now , so something has to be done about it , too many birds of prays in the sky now!


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

this post was done by someone who own rollers in you tube read what he has to say

IT makes sense why pigeon owners are attacking these birds of prey. Why? b/c these birds of prey are not preying on natural animals they are supposed to prey on. Instead they are aiming towards "pets" of residents. In another way, if these birds of prey aim to prey on feral pigeons, then that is another side. On this side, it does not matter... predator/prey continues. The only big problem between birds of prey and what they say "so called Rolling pigeons" is that these birds of prey are attacking "residential" livestock not " Mother Natures" livestock. 

The same scenario can be explained by wolves and sheep. People shoot wolves b/c they are eating sheep which the country residents own. If the wolves attacked wild deer's or Elks' then there would be no problems with shooting protected animals. 

But as a fact, animals are animals and they will continue a path that will conserve them the most energy and enhance their life system. There really is no way to stop law protected predators to not attack residential livestock but, as stated... if routines persist.. a permit is allowed to trap and remove.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

One the whitetail deer were reduced by MAN not animals. Man hunted them for there fur. slaughtered them by the hundreds That went on to having the gov regulate them. The bison. THE same man hunted killed them for there hides. The hawks certion one were killed down by man. Which In away Yes in someareas they are getting to overpopulated. BUT They are here to stay. ROLLERS well even though man made them through a genatic fault. They become EASY prey in the sky. where other pigeons are HARDER prey in the sky. Pigeons sitting are a very easy prey. BUT rollers rollling are sitting ducks. Man has to readapt To what is now. For when Hawks were in great numbers before the Passenger pigeon was around. And not as many to NONE on homing pigeons rollers ect. IT is frustrating to raise the bird then have the hawk take it. THE hawk did not mean you any harm It meant to find only food to eat. The pigeon new this. That was bred into the pigeon long ago. How to try to protect its self in NATURE. Taking that awy such as ROLLERS gives greater advantage to the bird of prey. I have had birds taken by the HAWK. I learned to do what I could do to reduce the problem. IT helped very much. PART of flying even race birds they attract the hawk in. How the circle and circle the loft area. And can be seen for miles doinf that. The hawk comes to them. Wher most all the wild ferals. Fly to there food and water. And back home Not circling at or little at all. when man leaves NATURE to its own and does not take from nature but what he needs nature will stay strong And balance itself. The places where high numbers brings sickness. Low food supply ECT. that reduces the numbers of the different creatures of nature. When man takes the homes FORSET and such. The animal not having food or a place to hunt and stay away from man It has to DIE or learn to live in mans world. That world is the cities and towns. MAN was more a part of nature long ago. Now man is spoiled and wasteful. So look at the world and see all is and has meaning even the bird of prey you have grown to HATE.. As I said most hate that it takes from us. But what can be done other then destroy it for doing what it must to survive. THAT is part of what BALANCE is Even in your part of the world


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Raphael - Why should the animals and birds have to pay the price for, by your own words, what man has devastated? We are the cause of ALL that is wrong with the balance in nature. Every horror story we hear about concerning diseased or starving animals can be blamed directly back to us. We killed off the bison, then the wolves. What happened, the coyote over populated the wild, and started to move into human habitat. Many bears are shot every year because tourists fail to heed the DO NOT FEED THE BEARS signs. Then we get mad and shoot the bear. The list could go on and on. Also, you mention how humans are stripping the land on your own island. Did the hawks do this? They are forced to congregate where they can find places to nest, and find food. And because your species push them into conflict with you and your birds, you think the hawks should suffer. How about you go out and pour sugar in the fuel tanks of the earth movers, or take a bat to the people driving them? *ONLY KIDDING* Man can make decisions to stop raping the land, but
the hawks are driven by hunger, the need to survive and raise young. You can take steps to protect your birds, the hawks cannot stop what drives them to survive. 

This argument could go on forever. All I can do is ask that everyone reading this not to do anything illegal, or take matters in to your own hands, without first checking with the proper authorities.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

AlMONDMAN WE ARE FINALLY IN THE SAME PAGE!, YES WE ARE THE CAUSE OF ALL THIS , AND WE ARE NOW THE ONLY ONES THAT COULD CAP SOME OF THESE ANIMAL TO KEEP THEIR NUMBER FROM GOING UP , LIKE I SAID FOR BIRD OF PRAY THEY COULD TAKE THE EGGS FROM THE NEST LIKE WE DO WHEN WE DONT WANT ANYMORE YB FROM OUR PIGEONS , LOT OF BIRD OF PRAY HAD GPS TAGS ON THEM NOW SO IT BE EASY TO FIND THE NEST, THERE ARE JUST TO MANY OF THEM NOW, WHEN I SAID STRIP THE LAND I ALSO WAS TALKING ABOUT THE OTHER ANIMALS THAT LIVE IN THE FOREST, IN PR, DONT KNOW IF YOU EVER HEAR OF A FROG CALL THE COQUI WE ALREADY LOST TWO Subspecies AREADY FROM LAND BEING TAKEN AWAY, PONDS AND STREAMS BEING FILL UP TO MAKE ROAD AND MORE LAND ,ANYWAY LIKE I SAID BEFORE Puerto Rico holds the highest known density of Red-tailed Hawks anywhere IN THE WORLD! THE SMALL TOWN IM NEXT TO IS LESS THEN A SQUARE MILE BIG BUT THERE ARE AT LEASE 30 PIGEON KEEPER AND SOME OF THESE GUYS HAS OVER 500 BIRDS , THEY ALL HATE HAWK I DONT HAVE TO TELL YOU HOW THEY TAKE CARE OF THINGS OVER HERE , WE DONT HAVE RANGERS OR ANYONE THAT REALLY PATROLING FOR ANYONE TO SEE IF ANYONE KILLING HAWK , THEY DONT HAVE THE MONEY OR MAN POWER BUT IF THEY DID , MOST LIKEY THEY BE CHASE OUT OF THE AREA ,LOL , ONLY TIME I SEE THEM IS WHEN THE HUNTING SEASON FOR DOVE IS ON, LESS HAWK LESS HUNGER = LESS LOST OF OUR PIGEONS


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well you know Rafael, there is obviously a huge difference in how they take care of things over there, or don't, and how they do things over here. The life of all animals or birds should be respected...........................not just the ones you personally care about.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Rafael - I will never be on the same page if you insist that the only way to counter your problem is killing the hawks. Let's agree to disagree on this subject.


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## benjemon (Mar 28, 2014)

I thought guaraguaro was making a come back because the DDT had finally broken down in the soil. The problem isn't that there's too many hawks now, the problem is that you're used to not having enough hawks. The balance is restored, man.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

i didnt say killing hawk i said taking their egg away from their nest to keep their number down , are you not reading my post? Almondman?, i have a pair of American Kestrel (the good guys)living close to me and they doing a nice number scaring the hawks away from my area, for now not worrying too much on the hawk but like i said their number has to go down, as for benjemon when the wolf, mountain lion , bobcat and snakes are back in numbers in the eastern part of the U.S. then the balance is restore, not before


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I would like to thank you all for your honest participation in this aspect of pigeoneering(?). Balance: a word that we have made. To me a balance is when I am in control by my free will. Also a balance is when others teach me truth which makes sense in the long run. I figure that as long as the innocents are not abused, then that is balance. Buffalo was in balance for many years and it may still be one day, but today we do not have use for buffalo because we drink milk from others that are more people friendly. If a disease kills all the cattle like animals in Americas, then the buffalo may out survive this disaster and once again be of use to us in great numbers. 
I do not see there any danger in pigeon keepers going after nuisance animals. Because we the people can bring back any BOP from captivity to a wild state if need to. 
I once made balance with a stray cat and a skunk because I liked them a lot. But not with a raccoon or an opossum. Maybe someone can teach me how to find a balance with these ones too. I am hoping to find a balance with the King snake also. I was told that alligators can not be tamed because of a brain issue. The native Americans wanted balance, but I hardly see any. 
My last example is: if I owned all African wild cats, I would probably keep the leopard as a friend and maybe the cheeta too to keep the balance. I guess to make a balance, there must be a lot of love involved, otherwise nature does not understand balance, love, etc.. Thanks again folks.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hamlet said:


> Hello. I would like to thank you all for your honest participation in this aspect of pigeoneering(?). Balance: a word that we have made. To me a balance is when I am in control by my free will. Also a balance is when others teach me truth which makes sense in the long run. I figure that as long as the innocents are not abused, then that is balance. Buffalo was in balance for many years and it may still be one day, but today we do not have use for buffalo because we drink milk from others that are more people friendly. If a disease kills all the cattle like animals in Americas, then the buffalo may out survive this disaster and once again be of use to us in great numbers.
> I do not see the any danger in pigeon keepers going after nuisance animals. Because we the people can bring back any BOP from captivity to a wild state if need to.
> I once made balance with a stray cat and a skunk because I liked them a lot. But not with a raccoon or an opossum. Maybe someone can teach me how to find a balance with these ones too. I am hoping to find a balance with the King snake also. I was told that alligators can not be tamed because of a brain issue. The native Americans wanted balance, but I hardly see any.
> My last example is: if I owned all African wild cats, I would probably keep the leopard as a friend and maybe the cheeta too to keep the balance. I guess to make a balance, there must be a lot of love involved, otherwise nature does not understand balance, love, etc.. Thanks again folks.


You are finding the idea of balance to the use of MAN. The bison were killed of by man .in one for the railroad. In another to hurt the indian people. Bison meat today is in a demand which sell much higher then beef. And is healther then beef to eat.. There is no room left for the large herds Of thousands Numbering millions to ever be any more. Because man has settled the lands. But keeping the bison herds going at least keeps them alive. You talk of other things. To use the word balance. The idea is leaving nature to its own. It has its balance. Just like the weather it can not really be controled. So why why complian About it. That is what is good. Can not stop it so can never hate it. Any way the subject is about the birds of prey. I well remember when you could fly the birds and never worry about hawks. Because they were not around. BUT now they are. because Man can not kill them every day. Taking the pigeon and putting it in a loft and control its breeding and its flight. It becamoes more or less a MAN MADE creature. But it makes man happy and it to becomes happy. But it can no longer live the life of the wild. yes it can revert back to that life but it is at its current state man made. Which I have no compliant about. The pigeon has made man happy. But must be protected in a way that is different then nature would. And the only way is to try to be smarter on how thing are done in nature. If this world is to be destroyed It will be done by MAN not nature


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

I have been keeping up with this post, but didn't really feel I could go much beyond the comments of Re Lee, Almondman, Jay3.

First, there really needs to be a healthy dose of respect for animals even if you don't 'feel the love' for that species. Heck I don't like winter with it's -50F temps and additional windchills, but I must respect mother nature. Do you see what I am trying to say? You don't have to like something, but you do need to respect it.

Second, you must only go as far as the mirror to see where the upset in balance is. Humans have dealt mother nature a big blow, not as much animal to animal. It's the human population that is actually out of control - yup! We breed like rats and take down so much in our paths... look at what the land use to look like and review what we've done to it -- in a VERY short amount of time.

If we hadn't gone taking away drastic amounts of habitat, there'd be less friction here.


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## Peavy (Mar 24, 2013)

Okay, I was going to start a new thread relating to hawks, but there's already a discussion going on here.

It's that time of year, and the hawks are migrating through. Has anyone else noticed less hawks when the winds are from the north? I hope I'm not jinxing myself here, but these past few weeks I've been tossing when winds are from the north becuse it seems like there are less hawks.

Only other thing I've learned is to toss them hungry so they come straight home and trap immediately. I don't loft fly very often so the hawks don't learn to target the loft. Short training tosses as often as possible is what I have been doing. It's also forcing me to handle and examine the birds more.

But yeah, I notice the most hawks in spring and fall, and I'm going to pay more attention to wind direction. I tossed on Saturday, winds from the south, and got pretty nervous by the amount of hawks I saw while driving to and from.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Peavy said:


> Okay, I was going to start a new thread relating to hawks, but there's already a discussion going on here.
> 
> It's that time of year, and the hawks are migrating through. Has anyone else noticed less hawks when the winds are from the north? I hope I'm not jinxing myself here, but these past few weeks I've been tossing when winds are from the north becuse it seems like there are less hawks.
> 
> ...


 Some areas have year around hawks. Places like wher I live the hawks move in in OCTOBER and pretty much Leave in MARCH. which is not to bad. North winds in hawk season here made little differnce. But what you are doing Should help any hawk problem to not be as bad. Keep up what your doing and You might just live in an area where the hawks move on.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

almondman said:


> This may be true, but as many of us have found out, most government agencies do not think much of pigeons, let alone thinking they are pets. It might prove rather hard to get a permit to trap hawks for taking pigeons as pets, or as nuisances. They are more likely to trap the pigeons.


I have never seen a wildlife and game department have a predjudice againts pigeons. if you know this from experience that is too bad as I know it is not as a whole that any department would act or be this way, really not good to put them all to seem that way. example a game warden went through the trouble to find the owner of bird bands found under a BOP's nest, he relocated the BOP. I really don't see the reason to dissuade some one from calling
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*ALL*
I guess I did send a wrong message. I think it's a great idea to try contacting wardens to get help with troublesome critters. That is what I meant by keeping things legal when dealing with hawk issues. I was referring to local, county, and state government agency's that people have had trouble with. Many of these officials have little regard for our feathered friends, as witnessed by all the threads here from members that have had issues with laws at those levels. Sorry for confusing the issues.

*almondman*


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

spirit wings said:


> I have never seen a wildlife and game department have a predjudice againts pigeons. if you know this from experience that is too bad as I know it is not as a whole that any department would act or be this way, really not good to put them all to seem that way. example a game warden went through the trouble to find the owner of bird bands found under a BOP's nest, he relocated the BOP. I really don't see the reason to dissuade some one from calling.


I have great wardens out here, but I really can't speak for the rest. I agree, always best to give a solid effort and call.

Out here I have various hawks year round. Springs a little more dicey I'd guess as their are young to feed. I've always got something around.

Let me give you a giggle or completely freak you out! You haven't lived til you are sitting at the table - minding your own business, enjoying a pop tart, when out of nowhere you are at eye level, making full on eye contact with a GOLDEN EAGLE (tremendously large raptor for those who are unaware - 7 1/2 foot wingspan) as he sllllllllowly glides by your window - full eye contact, at only 6-8 feet from you. Yea, I'm still not completely sure how I feel about that. It was a very interesting experience. I'm still not sure I can identify ALL the feelings that evoked.... There were many!


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## Gitane44 (Apr 6, 2014)

Try befriending the crows in your area. They will drive them out.


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## 9toes (Apr 4, 2012)

How do you get crows to stay around?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Silver Wings said:


> I have great wardens out here, but I really can't speak for the rest. I agree, always best to give a solid effort and call.
> 
> Out here I have various hawks year round. Springs a little more dicey I'd guess as their are young to feed. I've always got something around.
> 
> Let me give you a giggle or completely freak you out! You haven't lived til you are sitting at the table - minding your own business, enjoying a pop tart, when out of nowhere you are at eye level, making full on eye contact with a GOLDEN EAGLE (tremendously large raptor for those who are unaware - 7 1/2 foot wingspan) as he sllllllllowly glides by your window - full eye contact, at only 6-8 feet from you. Yea, I'm still not completely sure how I feel about that. It was a very interesting experience. I'm still not sure I can identify ALL the feelings that evoked.... There were many!


Including where to find some clean shorts. I had a similar experience while walking in our farm woods. A huge bird jumped up from a clearing just ahead of me. I first thought it was a turkey, but it turned out to be a bald eagle that had been feeding on a deer carcass. Took awhile to calm my heart, along with other organs.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

IDK if PT supports pigeons or hawks more. Ooops,sorry!
I don't understand your guys' concept of balance!

For me balance means "natural balance" of ecosystem. Natural birds of prey hunting its natural prey to keep population of prey species undercontrol is natural balance.
Hawks are good to be around as long as they hunt their natural prey like rats,snakes,rabits,squirrels,bats,feral pigeons and stuff... That's what I would call balance.
But when hawks/falcons become freeloaders by hunting pet pigeons or always wait for a chance to attack pet pigeons that ain't no balance folks. We are encouraging them to hunt pet pigeons if we do nothing. All this will result in, is explosion in their numbers. Must I say explosion in numbers of freeloader hawks/falcons. If a hawk/falcon continues to feed its chicks pet pigeons then its young will see pet pigeons as the only prey and the situation will worsen. Why would they go look out and toil to hunt their natural,evolved and clever prey when they can have a free source of food in form of pet pigeons.



Hawks and falcons can't understand our humane ways. They just won't budge. The situation I faced with falcon this winters...don't ask for it, hope nobody never faces. The falcon didn't understand any humane ways I used on him cuz after all its a beast. So I had to treat all hawks and falcons in "beasty" ways. Throwing sticks on their sight,pelting stones at them,using catapult to hit them with stones,using bottle rockets,fire crackers were few of the ways that sent them a message and they received it that I don't want them around my loft. They can feed on and hunt anywhere else but not on/near my property.

I respect hawks as nature's magnificient cleaning machines designed to be desirable "Gods of death" as long as they clean,scavenge and kill the weak,sick,unfit and injured natural prey. But when they reverse their roles I need to reverse my liking for them too. Excess of hawks is bad. If authorities do nothing, become guardian of your own birds yourself and tell hawks that these pigeons are protected. Be discreet Now this big hawk flies away when sees me stepping up on the my rooftop.


Happy pigeon keeping to all. 
(Sorry,if I repeated anything said above as I didn't go through the whole thread)


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

So tell me, how do hawks tell the difference between feral and pet pigeons? To them they are all the same. And I would certainly hope that if you are a pigeon lover, you would love and enjoy ALL birds. And I'm willing to bet that the hawks were on your "property" many years before you were even born.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hmmmm...wise...Dave!
Hawks and falcons have become bolder and intelligent like never before. I believe that they can tell the difference between pet and feral pigeons.
One hawk always attacked when my pigeons when they would fly as a unit hoping to catch one out of many. Pet pigeons unlike ferals fly in circles for long whereas the ferals would go in straight line or would just fly from one building to another. Hawks and falcons have come to know that those pigeons which fly in circles around a particular place/spot are meals. They may not call them pets in their language but they can tell the difference.
The hawks...particularly that bloody winged beast falcon would sit all day long on the tower and only attack when my or any other fancier's pigeons would fly in circles as a unit. And he knows, these pigeons aren't going anywhere,would just circle around and he can have multiple strikes on them. Even when he fails he goes for the tower,takes his time and breadth and give it a go again and again untill he victimises one of the innocent PET birds.
But now he been shot at and that knocked some sense into him.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Look at it this way If an easy meal is around go there. And your birds are that. What do ytou do other then shoot at or toss rocks at the hawks. And at least here in the USA if you shoot a hawk you are in trouble. It is not that I or anybody thinks hawks are great. But they are part of nature And only do what they need to survive. The human has to try and be smarter then the hawk. And some times it just happens you get a bird hit. Used to be No to very little hawks because they were killed and killed. But they are back We have to live with that.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jass - when you want to go out for a steak dinner, do you go and butcher the steer, or do you take the easy route, and go to the steak house. And when you order that steak, can you tell whether that steak came from a Hereford, Holstein, or Charlais steer. Nope! And as you eat that steak, it all goes in the same place, tastes the same, and comes out the same place. 

This might be a bit of a stretch, but not too far a one.

We all know hawks are a real nuisance, and it is hard to lose birds, but the hawks are a part of our lives. We have to accept that risk when we decide to raise birds. Even if you were allowed to, getting rid of one bird will only see it replaced when another one sees that the territory is now open. 

And this IS a pigeon advocacy forum. We all want o see our birds live and thrive. But the majority of us also see the need for all critters. As I already stated, without hawks, the rodent population could explode and the we'd be dealing with vermin in or around our lofts, then snakes that come to eat the rodents, and on and on. Australia had a major problem with mice after they decimated the dingo population in several areas.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have no idea why anyone believes that hawks don't go after the ferals. They sure do. I think it may feel that way when they hit your birds, but believe me, I see many hawk strikes on the ferals to unfortunately.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

Almondman you are always protecting the falcons and hawks like you are into falconry. are you ? always on their side , i never saw you protecting anything about pigeons when it come to bird of pray? why is that i keep telling myself? if the pigeon was in the blink of extinction you still be protecting the bird of prays and say it the balance of nature. Sorry it seen i am picking on you but your a super Moderator to me that a high rank officer who should be helping us and fighting for our hobby every way possible, these hawk attack are killing our sport rapidly in the states not so in other country's , not saying killing them but slowing their population down by other means, like i said before like removing their eggs from nest, you said on one of your post quot ( Also, it is against forum rules to discuss killing of any sort. Please refrain from any more conversations about it. There have been several other, more humane, ways mentioned. Try these.) what was you talking about ? what these?, dont you think we need a section with problem like these ,and many state are now even banning lots of people from keeping pigeons in their own back yard , and dont forget those animal rights activists. like PETA, instead of trying to find out what you was talking about how about making a section that contain problem with hawks and what we could do about them and , who to go to if your state is making you get rid of your birds and etc , so plz try to help us instead of telling us we better not do this or that to the new guys in this forum. we dont need that type of leadership or police officers checking on us what we post , again i am not for killing falcons and hawks , but they have to give us options on what we could do , not telling us too bad they are protected , mode, that burn me up


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Rafael - I am sorry you have a problem with how I feel. I am not a falconer, although I have no problem with those that are. You seem to have a personal vendetta against me in particular, as many other folks have expressed the same, or similar, thoughts as mine. I am very much pro pigeon, but unlike you, I recognize the need for all species and refuse to say that we should do harm to one just because of what nature created them to do.

I will not get into a debate about whether I have the right to express my own thoughts or not. Just because I happen to be a moderator for this forum doesn't mean I have to give up my rights of expression. You have made it known how you feel on the subject, as have I. 

You are more than welcome to set up another thread just to debate what can, or should be done about birds of prey, although I thought that was what we were doing here. 

IMO - enough said between the two of us. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about the subjects of hawks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think Almondman is just stating the facts, and you don't like them. Why shoot the messenger? And you did hint at harming them. That is illegal, and you shouldn't make it sound like a suggestion to other members to do that. Believe me, I can understand your frustration with BOP. But just because we own a particular animal, doesn't mean that we can just get rid of anything that endangers it. We would have to wipe out a lot of different species, if we all did that with anything that endangers a species we care about, we would be 
wiping a lot of other things out. You care about pigeons. Some people keep BOP. Unfortunately, there really isn't much that can solve the problem of the hawks and the like. They are there. And unfortunately for the pigeon, they are toward the bottom of the food chain. I don't see Almondman on anyone's side. He is just being neutral. You are the one who is choosing sides, which is understandable, but I think if someone doesn't agree with your opinion, than they must be on the other side. Not so. 
BOP go after all birds, and all pigeons. They go after the ferals as well. We are the ones who keep them locked up and confined to a small space, which I'm sure to a hawk, must look like a take out restaurant. So in a sense, we are throwing off the natural balance of things by doing that. With feral flocks in the wild, spread about in a larger area, they are a bit more of a challenge to catch. Our pigeons, confined in a close group and in one place, makes it easier for them. So we are actually causing the problem for ourselves. WE do what isn't natural, then we blame the hawks for responding to it. OY!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Pieces are finally falling into line!
That's what I was talking about!
Let hawks do their thing in the wild but do take a stand and shoo them away from your pigeons. That way they will incline towards their natural prey mammals and birds! Don't encourage them around your loft. Make every possible effort to deter them away from your loft so that they hunt in the wild where they should be hunting. Maybe buy some dead mice or sort of their dead natural prey and give it to them once in while, far away from your loft so that they may keep themselves to their natural prey. Then we can dream of co-existence. Oh yea!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Jay! I wish there was a quick fix for this problem that would keep everyone happy, but it's way past my brain power to figure it out.

Jass - good advice!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't think there is a quick fix, or any other kind of fix. It's what is going to happen when we decide to keep a prey animal. Lots of things preying on it. That's nature. If we kept BOP, we wouldn't be having the problems. Don't we choose it, and know it going in?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

How are cane toads,racoon,hoggs,possums treated?
How are foxes treated when they take chicken away?
How are rats,termites treated?
How are alligators treated in Florida?
How are coyotes treated in Chicago,Illinois?
How are predators treated when they take livestock away?
Same be done to the species that overgrow? List is endless.
Ofcourse humans are to blame for the imbalance but why can't one protect his birds if a farmers can protect his livestock?
For some, pigeons are not just pets,they are important business? And to some keeping them is earning?
We gotta find a way!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jass SamOplay said:


> How are cane toads,racoon,hoggs,possums treated?
> How are foxes treated when they take chicken away?
> How are rats,termites treated?
> How are alligators treated in Florida?
> ...


The problem is HAWKS in America are protected by the goverment. Before the protection. They were Killed if they caused a problem. BUT a cewrtion amount of protection Was needed As some hawk numbers were in a very high decline. With protection Other then being on your toes Not much can be done As it is aginst feceral law. Hawks are prey type birds. They must hunt to eat. Pigeons are and have been prey for ever. You will find several of the natural prey animals have gone into decline. Meaning less food for the hawks. But still people with pigeons that they release have to work out a way . ONE if hawks are around the birds should NEVER have an open loft set up. They will just become FOOD for the day. Expect loses How much is your method. In a awy your fault. As some breeds Are hawk bait because of how the fly Like rollers they roll ion the sky. well they are easy prey. Is the the birds fault or mans It is mans as rollers were bred with a fault by man to roll.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hawks and falcons are protected here too but I wouldn't announce before doing....well...
I aint talking about harming!
Tigers,leopards,lions and bears are protected here too? Infact hunting of every big animal is illegal!
If hawks and falcons takes a heavy toll on your birds(not one bird in a while) then one should report to authorities unless do something discreetly without harming the hawks


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jass SamOplay said:


> How are cane toads,racoon,hoggs,possums treated?
> How are foxes treated when they take chicken away?
> How are rats,termites treated?
> How are alligators treated in Florida?
> ...


I'm really sorry to have to say this, but do you realize how silly that all sounds. None of the species you mentioned would have ever gotten into harms way,or caused any harm, if we humans had not put them there to begin with. It is total arrogance to say that any of these species would be a the problem to us humans if we hadn't destroyed their habitat, poisoned their natural food sources, or in some other way interfered with the natural order of things. 

We get hot under the collar because there are too many of this species, or too many of that one. Truth be told, the main cause of all the unbalance in nature, is TOO MANY HUMANS. But not once have I heard anyone suggest that we take action against our own species for causing such mayhem. Go figure!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I welcome your opinion.
"Go Figure" is something that varies from person to person, what opinion he holds about something.
For most people,pigeons are pests and nuisance. They do whatever it takes to....
If hawks/falcons become a nuisance,well... I'm sure,you would call an exterminator when you see pests in your house,to protect you and your family from them. This is self defense. My pigeons are my family. Why I don't have right to protect them from....!
Ofcourse we humans are responsible for imbalance which I stated in my previous post. But if all other species of animals are controlled for balance of ecosystems then why not h/f. We disturbed balance and its upto us to restore it. If we do nothing,overgrown species are gonna die on their own when they wouldn't find enough resources to support their living upon.

If you would have lost 22 of your finest birds out of around 40 then you had different take on things,I'm sure about that. I waited for many "long" months and put kept my birds locked down for more than three months but to no avail. Respite came only after the falcon was made to realise that these pigeons who fly in circles as a unit over this area are "lifeline" of a guy named "Jass". As I stated a couple of times earlier in this forum that predator must have its prey. I just wanna mend that predator must have its "natural" prey.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeons are their natural prey, whether owned or feral. I think everyone understands that you are upset because it's your birds they're getting, but you know going in that pigeons are dinner to many other birds. In a sense, we are doing the same with pigeons, as far as coming into another animals territory. We raise them, and then let them out into a hawks territory or a falcons. We are in a sense putting them in danger, then getting mad at the danger. BOP aren't going to distinguish between owned birds and feral. By raising prey birds, are we not setting ourselves up for the problems? It isn't that we don't sympathize with your loss. We do.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thanks!
What would have you done if you had lost 22 birds?

I have locked them down for many months but this idea failed.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I am very sorry that you lost 22 birds. That IS a bitter pill to swallow. I guess what I am hoping people get out of this discussion is that we need to act responsively when dealing with BOPs. I am certain that I would try to find a way to deal with them if I was in your position. But I would hope that I would try every non lethal, least harmful, manner of protecting my birds as I could. Do the research, talk to game wardens, falconers, anyone and everyone, to find a legitimate way to deal with the problem. 

Again, I was unaware that you had been hit so hard. Over what period of time did you lose that many?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Thanks!
> What would have you done if you had lost 22 birds?
> 
> I have locked them down for many months but this idea failed.


One never let them out to fly with out. inspecting the sky. the trees ECT. two. Never let them out unless you are willing to stay out with them watching for hawks. When an area known to have a heavy hawk population. certion times of the year lock down is what needs to be done. NEVER let the birds just sit around the loft area or on any roofs. THEY have a better chance when they are flying. EXCEPT for rollers and they have little chance when they roll.. Pigeons are BORN with a certion amount of hawk awareness. And the more exposer they have they remember what the should do. FLY away fly higher then the hawk drop left drop right to evade. They know . BUT as said some breeds just do not have much of a chance. One of the worst thing to do is let the birds out and let them sit or walk around They are easy prey doing that as it takes time to get flight and speed to evade. As I said before the birds flying in circles attract hawks from miles away. Sometimes it is better to toss the birds down the road IF they are homing /race type birds. That way the fly to home And trap. 22 out 40 birds One has to rethink what they did And make changes.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. Has anyone here, in the states seen the band tail pigeons get hit by BOPs? I can not recall any. They are more common in the mountains and are native like the hawks. They fly extra slow, medium and fast, fly in groups, pairs or solo, and dive somewhat. Thanks.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

almondman said:


> I am very sorry that you lost 22 birds. That IS a bitter pill to swallow. I guess what I am hoping people get out of this discussion is that we need to act responsively when dealing with BOPs. I am certain that I would try to find a way to deal with them if I was in your position. But I would hope that I would try every non lethal, least harmful, manner of protecting my birds as I could. Do the research, talk to game wardens, falconers, anyone and everyone, to find a legitimate way to deal with the problem.
> 
> Again, I was unaware that you had been hit so hard.* Over what period of time did you lose that many?*


Thanks
*from oct2013 till mar2014. Sometimes when I clean the loft a bird would accidently escape and get caught. My birds used to fly on regular basis so they didn't like the lock down so they always look for a chance to get out of the loft. *


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

re lee said:


> One never let them out to fly with out. inspecting the sky. the trees ECT. two. Never let them out unless you are willing to stay out with them watching for hawks. When an area known to have a heavy hawk population. certion times of the year lock down is what needs to be done. NEVER let the birds just sit around the loft area or on any roofs. THEY have a better chance when they are flying. EXCEPT for rollers and they have little chance when they roll.. Pigeons are BORN with a certion amount of hawk awareness. And the more exposer they have they remember what the should do. FLY away fly higher then the hawk drop left drop right to evade. They know . BUT as said some breeds just do not have much of a chance. One of the worst thing to do is let the birds out and let them sit or walk around They are easy prey doing that as it takes time to get flight and speed to evade. As I said before the birds flying in circles attract hawks from miles away. Sometimes it is better to toss the birds down the road IF they are homing /race type birds. That way the fly to home And trap. 22 out 40 birds One has to rethink what they did And make changes.


Yes you're true. Trust me...what haven't I tried? Even locked down birds for months but at last I have to resort to ways which are brute. If one particular hawk/falcon is making trouble like the falcon in my case then I think the falcon doesn't deserve courtesy


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

I had an adult Cooper's hawk tearing my pigeons heads off through my chicken wire over chain link fencing... Pigeons aren't the smartest bird out there...
So we set up a large wire dog kennel that has a large swinging door and put one of the headless pigeons in it and tied the door so if something went after the pigeon, the door would fall shut.
Sure enough, the hawk was captured.
Instead of physically harming it, we did a little mental damage.
Basically standing by the cage and walking around it, shaking it sometimes.
Basically, scared the crap out of it for an hour and let it go...
Never saw that one again.
We did the same thing to a youngster that was caught the same way and did the same scare tactics. 
Haven't had a problem since.
While,yes, this was illegal, it was the safest and humane way to get rid of the hawks.
As long as you are there when the trap is set and are able to do the mental damage for an hour, I don't see a problem with it.
This is the same thing wardens do with bears... They chase it with dogs and shoot it with bean bags. Trying to scare them away from humans...
Now all my eggs from my feeder birds go on the big tree by my lofts. The crows appreciate the random snacks and chase the predators away for me


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yea Bobuki that's what I was talking about! If we let the hawks just come by, dine and go happily,we invite them to come back for more again and again. But if we scare,deter,repel them then they will definitely stay away.


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

Yeah. In no way did we injure the hawk and technically it was illegal. I mean if a ranger happened to stop by out house that hour we had the hawks trapped, we would be in a lot of trouble...
But talking to the rangers in the area, pest birds of prey need to either be killed or scared away as they had set our yard as part of yheir territory.
We could apply to have the bird trapped and killed but I didnt want the hawks killed for doing what they do naturally.
Relocating them doesnt work well.
I was actually going to apply for my apprenticeship as a falconer but I couldnt justify the time requirements the hawk woul require.
Its one thing to take care of the pigeons and horses but hawks are wild and need lots of time.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I want everyone to know that PT will *NEVER* condone doing anything illegal, whether the act is done to protect our pigeons, or for any other reason. For all the other readers of this post it is against PT's rules to discuss, or advocate, doing anything illegal. 

Bobuki - you mention that you have talked to the rangers. Why didn't you apply for the permit to scare off the hawks before proceeding with, by your own admission, something that you knew was illegal. As an aside, you may not have injured either of the two birds that you did catch, but the chance was there. They could have suffered broken wings, leg injuries, etc., as they tried to escape. 
In my opinion, it was a very stupid thing to do.

There should be absolutely no further discussion about illegal acts.

Please keep this discussion about logical, legitimate ways of hawk control.


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

My apologies regarding my post regarding the trapping. I forgot about the policy.
But you asked why I didn't apply for the permit. I didn't because they would have ended up killing the hawk. The hawks will come back. Especially when they have a mate left behind which this one did. 
After the hawk is considered a nuisance it is killed.
Same as bears who keep coming back to human areas. 

As for the method of trapping... Have you seen how falconers catch their birds? I have. It's pretty brutal (IMO). Usually foot traps of one form or another.

Anyhow, it would be interesting to see how others deal with hawks. The crows are great to have around too though are a federally protected species as well so be careful on having even crow feathers in your possession...


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## 9toes (Apr 4, 2012)

"The crows are great to have around too though are a federally protected species as well so be careful on having even crow feathers in your possession"

Bob crows are not protected, there is a crow season here in Arkansas. Starts Sept. and ends late Feb.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello PT. Have you seen this hawk?


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

yea i seen the video and gave the moron a piece of my mine, that hawk feathers look like it been cut if you look real closely ,the hawk barely could fly , my post is there im Junito1957 we had some nice exchange of word if you what i mean, i dont like any animal to die a long death , hawks included if you going to put it away do it quickly but don't let it suffer, that guy didnt understand that hawk was in it last legs,and he was hungey


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## Squeaker slave (Jan 22, 2014)

That birds wing has been cut it's the hawke was some ones pet,I dient watch the end because I can image the out come,the bloody hero


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hamlet said:


> Hello PT. Have you seen this hawk?


I deleted your you tube link. No need to post that.


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## Squeaker slave (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you Re Lee, it was a set up,poor bloody bird,if the poster wants to come to OZ I'm sure I could I accomadate them,.....Even if he or her has got a clipped wing???????


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. Thanks for letting me know that the link was edited, because i thought i was loosing it. 
I have seen a hawk: maybe a young one, and not in starving mode, and not in winter time, do that to my ringneck dove many years back. The bird could fly well but was very determined to survive. 
If my opinion counts here, then i think that the hawk may have been rehabilitated and let loose to survive. It sure had pretty yellow eyes. I have worked with parrots and the wings never looked clipped on this poor bird. 
Another time, another hawks wished to steal a bird that was smarter than the hawk. It just flew around my legs until i threw a kick while cursing at it: worked. 
Back to pigeons: they represent civilization to me. Thanks PT.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Bobuki said:


> My apologies regarding my post regarding the trapping. I forgot about the policy.
> But you asked why I didn't apply for the permit. I didn't because they would have ended up killing the hawk. The hawks will come back. Especially when they have a mate left behind which this one did.
> After the hawk is considered a nuisance it is killed.
> Same as bears who keep coming back to human areas.
> ...


I like this post. Can't help appreciating it


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What i have done AND it helped. was. In hawk season. I allways looked around Good before i realeased any birds. 2 If I saw a hawk in the tree ECT I held the birds in. . I would look at the sky even to notice if the wild birds were flying scared IF so I would watch awhile to see if a hawk was flying near.. IF all was ok I released the birds AND stayed at the loft while they flew. If a hawk showed up I would clap my hands loud and often the hwak would leave The birds would also notice IF they were not routing The hawk. And fly higher getting above any hawk. I had trained my birds to fly and trap. And that is what they did for the most part. Any that tried to stay and sit. I would be there to jump them up if a hawk came.. So just that saved many a bird. SURE I lost a few. But that was only about 4 a year. And I had at least 100 birds flying Most often So that was good to have a small number that did not get away.


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## Peavy (Mar 24, 2013)

I witnessed a Coopers Hawk chasing around my flock today. Pretty sure a few got hit.

Definitely no loft flying here for at least a week. Anyone try a crow decoy with corn near it to attract crows? I've never had an issue with crows chasing my pigeons, and have noticed less hawks when they're around.

Just no ravens, please. Witnessed that before, too.


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## flight (Dec 29, 2011)

A friend of mine gave me a crow call he uses for hunting crows. It does not always work but I have called crows in when the hawk shows up and the hawk left. Maybe if I get better using it I can call them in when I need them. Would be great if it was that easy.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Here's hoping! Good idea, and good luck with getting better at it.


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## 9toes (Apr 4, 2012)

flight said:


> A friend of mine gave me a crow call he uses for hunting crows. It does not always work but I have called crows in when the hawk shows up and the hawk left. Maybe if I get better using it I can call them in when I need them. Would be great if it was that easy.


good idea, i have a electronic predator call with the crow call on it. Think i will try this!


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