# What is the best way to hand feed 2 week olds?



## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Greetings, can anyone answer this ? for me? What is the best way to hand feed two week old piggies? They are not orphans, their parents stopped feeding them, and have "other" things on their minds. ( I think they are working on making MORE!  ) This morning I tried the "spoon method"... Worked, but pretty messy! They are on seed mixed with water. Thanks.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Greetings, can anyone answer this ? for me? What is the best way to hand feed two week old piggies? They are not orphans, their parents stopped feeding them, and have "other" things on their minds. ( I think they are working on making MORE!  ) This morning I tried the "spoon method"... Worked, but pretty messy! They are on seed mixed with water. Thanks.


Are you SURE the parents aren't feeding them? A baby that old can be fed seeds, however, they aren't quite old enough to eat them theirselves, so the only way to do it is pop one seed at a time in their mouth. Time consuming. When I have one that age, I feed Kaytee plus 15 or so seeds and then give them water. You CAN teach them to self feed at 16 days old. I've done it quite a few times. However, it takes some time on your part pecking with your finger and getting them interested. Are you keeping them in the loft or bring them inside?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I think the least stressful the better. It's probably less messier and easier on them to put the nipple at the end of syringe and just let them eat out of that, or another less invasive device. 

I did spoon feed (baby spoon works best) a couple with seed and water when they were almost full grown, it gets easier, and they don't take in as much at one time. Once they get almost 3 weeks old you can try to wean them.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi Renee, Yes, I am sure the parents are not feeding them. Their crops were empty, and they couldn't stretch their little necks out any further to them, and they just ignored them. Right now, I have them in the house in a dog crate. I am feeding pigeon feed, moistened with water. I know this is unusual. That is why I asked.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Are they very weak?

Once they strengthen up and you get the weight back on them, they can let their parents know they are hungry and perhaps they can try again.

You should add probiotics or kefir/yogurt to the seed too.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Are they very weak?
> 
> Once they strengthen up and you get the weight back on them, they can let their parents know they are hungry and perhaps they can try again.
> 
> You should add probiotics or kefir/togurt to the seed too.


Hi, No, they aren't weak. I have been watching them the last few days, and the parents are getting less interested each day. Today, the little guys squawked and stretched out to be fed, and they totally ignored them. I watched this for 1 1/2 hours, and said, "that's enough of this".. I am mixing the Red Cell in water, and mixing that with the feed. What is "kefir/togurt"?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Snowbird Sue said:


> What is "kefir/togurt"?


Sorry I misspelled that, it's kefir or yogurt.

It's a great source of probiotics if you don't have any. Young pigeons thrive on it, as it introduces good gut bacteria that is wiped out under stress. It is already in short supply in their intestinal tract. It also alows good uptake of nutrients and will give them a good start.

You can buy organic plain yogurt with cultures in it at a health food store, or use human grade probiotics.

I've done the kefir on the spoon and what a mess! It's easier to syringe it down.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Sorry I misspelled that, it's kefir or yogurt.
> 
> It's a great source of probiotics if you don't have any. Young pigeons thrive on it, as it introduces good gut bacteria that is wiped out under stress. It is already in short supply in their intestinal tract. It also alows good uptake of nutrients and will give them a good start.
> 
> ...


Hi Trees Gray, I don't have any "organic" yogurt, but I do have some "Acidophilus" (1 tablet).... Should I break it up and feed them a small piece? They do seem active enough, and I am feeding the same seeds as the parents woud have been.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Easyest thing to do is go to a drug store that sells cathter syringes. Get the 60cc one. You will see it has a longer end that will go to the back of the throat for feeding. Then get some chick starter this is crumbled mix it with water makinbg it fairly soupy. Heat in micri wave say 40 seconds stir to mix make sure it is not to hot. Put it in the syringe place the end to back of the troat downrad angle. And push the mix in fast not slow. 2 birds 2 weeks old give say 20 to 30 cc. As they grow increase. This is very fast feeding method . And now days some pigeon supply houses will sell this as a feeding kit.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Hi Trees Gray, I don't have any "organic" yogurt, but I do have some "Acidophilus" (1 tablet).... Should I break it up and feed them a small piece? They do seem active enough, and I am feeding the same seeds as the parents woud have been.


Are they refrigerated? I have never heard of acidopholis tablets, I have used probiotic capsules that are refrigerated that I open up and I pour some in the seed.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

re lee said:


> Easyest thing to do is go to a drug store that sells cathter syringes. Get the 60cc one. You will see it has a longer end that will go to the back of the throat for feeding. Then get some chick starter this is crumbled mix it with water makinbg it fairly soupy. Heat in micri wave say 40 seconds stir to mix make sure it is not to hot. Put it in the syringe place the end to back of the troat downrad angle. And push the mix in fast not slow. 2 birds 2 weeks old give say 20 to 30 cc. As they grow increase. This is very fast feeding method . And now days some pigeon supply houses will sell this as a feeding kit.


Hi re lee, that sounds interesting, but I have no "pigeon supply " places near me, always use mail order. As for the catheter syringe, will have to go to town for that. Is there any reason why I can't feed them the same pigeon feed the parents are eating? It just seems to me, that they feed it to them anyway. Just curious. Thanks


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Are they refrigerated? I have never heard of acidopholis tablets, I have used probiotic capsules that are refrigerated that I open up and I pour some in the seed.


Yes, they have been refrigerated... There is only one left in it. ACIDOPHILUS is what is on the bottle. It says it is "fOR HEALTHY DIGESTIVE FUNCTION". It is one large oblong white tablet.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I like this way of feeding babies, easy and not scary at all...it works with small seeds as well as formula. We use the plastic outer casing/holder that a large syringe comes in, put some stretchy bandage tape on the open side, cut a hole in the tape, the bird sticks his beak in and voila!

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Yes, they have been refrigerated... There is only one left in it. ACIDOPHILUS is what is on the bottle. It says it is "fOR HEALTHY DIGESTIVE FUNCTION". It is one large oblong white tablet.


You could use a 1/4th of a human dose.


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Are they very weak?
> 
> Once they strengthen up and you get the weight back on them, they can let their parents know they are hungry and perhaps they can try again.
> 
> *You should add probiotics or kefir/yogurt* to the seed too.


sorry sue for butting in here, but i was interested in the yogurt thing, i had a thread abou colostrum and someone said that pigeons can't digest milk, as yogurt is a milk product, i am a little confused, can someone tell me the difference,
I hope sue the young ones start stuffing themselves, i know they are in good hands, 

PS I like your new signature, lovely kitty,


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

jojo67 said:


> sorry sue for butting in here, but i was interested in the yogurt thing, i had a thread abou colostrum and someone said that pigeons can't digest milk, as yogurt is a milk product, i am a little confused, can someone tell me the difference,
> I hope sue the young ones start stuffing themselves, i know they are in good hands,
> 
> PS I like your new signature, lovely kitty,


Hi jojo, You're welcome here anytime. I was concerned about the yogurt as well. Good thing I don't have any. I can put seeds in their beaks, and they swallow it fine. I was concerned for mositure, so I wet the seeds first. They are doing great. Once I feed them, they snuggle into their nest and are nice and quiet and sleep, until their crops empty again... That's when "Tweety" starts up, and I check on them, and when their crops are empty I refill them. Anything else I need to do?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Hi re lee, that sounds interesting, but I have no "pigeon supply " places near me, always use mail order. As for the catheter syringe, will have to go to town for that. Is there any reason why I can't feed them the same pigeon feed the parents are eating? It just seems to me, that they feed it to them anyway. Just curious. Thanks


Chick starter is at any feed store its for baby chickens. Grain you would just need to put it in a straw and put the straw to the back of the throat then use a syringe with some tubing on it to give water. 1/4 grain 3/4 water.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

sabina said:


> I like this way of feeding babies, easy and not scary at all...it works with small seeds as well as formula. We use the plastic outer casing/holder that a large syringe comes in, put some stretchy bandage tape on the open side, cut a hole in the tape, the bird sticks his beak in and voila!
> 
> http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


Hi sabina, It does look a lot easier. At 15 days old, tho, shouldn't they be on seeds? I know they aren't old enough to pick out of a dish, but when the parents did feed them, their crops just bulged with seeds, so that is why I ask. thank you for the link.
Would a Turkey Baster (without the bulb) work in a pinch? No feed stores are open on the weekends, so there is no way to get any chick starter until next week. I do have the Turkey baster tho!


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

Hi sue, the birds at 15 days as you know would be getting the food from the parent birds at this stage, so if you feed the small seeds with some water they should be fine, in no time they will be picking it out of your hands, from now you are mummy and daddy 
Don't over feed them, stick to a routine like the parent birds and just keep them happy,


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

jojo67 said:


> Hi sue, the birds at 15 days as you know would be getting the food from the parent birds at this stage, so if you feed the small seeds with some water they should be fine, in no time they will be picking it out of your hands, from now you are mummy and daddy
> Don't over feed them, stick to a routine like the parent birds and just keep them happy,


That is exactly what I was thinking! I couldn't figure out why the chick starter, etc., because they were getting fed by their parents until they decided they should go off and make MORE!  I'll have to put a picture of my cat out there, and maybe that will straighten them up!


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

He looks like a boy that would sort the thing out, , i have a cat myself and she takes a good look now and again, i keep her in the house when the birds are out , she knows the routine now and is happy enough.
I still would'n trust her though, 
How old are the parent birds that left the young by the way.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

jojo67 said:


> He looks like a boy that would sort the thing out, , i have a cat myself and she takes a good look now and again, i keep her in the house when the birds are out , she knows the routine now and is happy enough.
> I still would'n trust her though,
> How old are the parent birds that left the young by the way.


Hi jojo, My cat is a GIRL! LOL! She's 1/4 bobcat, so she is a handful. Strictly a house cat. 

The parent birds are 1 1/2 yrs old. This is their second bunch of young. The first time, they had one hatch, and one that didn't make it all the way out of the egg in time, so they only raised one. I wonder if two is confusing them?  they have other things on their minds now....


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

sorry sue i thought by the look of it, so big . the only bobcat i know of has four wheels and a shovel at the front, i use one now and again ,
I thought maybe this was their first, and had little experiance. i had a few birds that left the eggs when they where soon to hatching, an old friend in the game a long time said that some times the birds can sense something wrong and just get up and leave, don't know if this would apply to birds that hatch. somethings we'll never know.

PS I hope someone comes along and tells me the difference in yogurt and colostrum, maybe just look over the net


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Sue,
The turkey baster would work fine. We fed formula until about 3 wks I think. And then transitioned with the small seed tube to self-feeding seeds.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Yeah, she's a big one. I had her declawed, and she doesn't even bother the little ones! Too busy sleeping...Her Mom was 1/2 bobcat, and had the short tail, too! I took this pic when she was "picking" on my husband to play with her! Oh, she is the boss, that is for sure! I know what kind of bobcat you are talking about too. Seen lots of them. 

i don't think anything is "wrong" with them, they look healthy, they squawk when they are hungry, and the parents are too busy schmoozing to feed them, is all I can see. Their poops are good too, and they are nice and warm. I would be interested in the difference in yogurt and colostrum myself. Sounds like a very good question.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I just read a fantastic research article about how young birds learn to peck seeds.
At starting 4 days old, the parent bird first pecks around the nest to demonstrate technique I guess, then feeds the young crop milk.
Then after a few more days, even more pecking before they feed. So the young bird associates watching the parent peck, with getting a full crop. So pecking = food.
Then when they get on the floor the parents won't feed the young until the young have pecked at some seeds with them, the parents and the young are pecking around together, then they settle down to lunch. 
So the young pick at a few seeds, drop them, and get fed by the parents. 

If I ever have to hand feed I'll poke around on the towel with my finger before feeding. 

I would plop them down in a plate full of seed and start poking at it with my finger. Yep. Years of scientific study boils down to "If you poke it they will eat."


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi philodice, that is a very interesting thought, but these two are too young for that! Maybe in a week, but not at this time. They just sit tight in their little nest.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Hi philodice, that is a very interesting thought, but these two are too young for that! Maybe in a week, but not at this time. They just sit tight in their little nest.


I'd still poke around before spoon feeding. The scientist said this was important. And I keep forgetting doves are faster than pigeons.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

jojo67 said:


> PS I hope someone comes along and tells me the difference in yogurt and colostrum, maybe just look over the net


Kefir ( yogurt is similar but not the same and doesn't have the amount of friendly bacteria as kefir ) is originally milk based, but it changes when it becomes kefir, after the process of fermentation takes place. It heals lactose intolerance and provides full digestibility of its milk base. Colostrum does not.

Yogurt is not http://www.kefir.org/kefir_manual.htm


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Kefir ( yogurt is similar but not the same and doesn't have the amount of friendly bacteria as kefir ) is originally milk based, but it changes when it becomes kefir, after the process of fermentation takes place. It heals lactose intolerance and provides full digestibility of its milk base. Colostrum does not.
> 
> Yogurt is not http://www.kefir.org/kefir_manual.htm


OK, now that does confuse me... I have heard of Yogurt, but not "kefir".....
Then, if I give them the yogurt, they can't digest it, right? But they can the "kefir"? Where does one purchase this "kefir"?.....


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

philodice said:


> I'd still poke around before spoon feeding. The scientist said this was important. And I keep forgetting doves are faster than pigeons.


I guess that is the difference between pigeons and doves...


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't know the difference, but as advised by people on here (I think Treesa was one of them), I added 1/4 teaspoon plain organic yogurt to the babies' food and they did great with it.


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

maryjane said:


> I don't know the difference, but as advised by people on here *(I think Treesa was one of them), I added 1/4 teaspoon plain organic yogurt to the babies' food and they did great with it.*


Thats me really confused, I went to a farmer and got colstrum as advised from a friend who has used it for years, he said its the best thing you can give the birds, better than any thing you can buy for young pigeons, 
All they need is a teaspoon in their feed once a week, if itworks for him there must be some good in it.

someone said on here pigeons can't digest milk, so why advise to give the yogurt,


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

One of our moderators, Nooti, told us about using plain yogurt a while back and I started using it for all the babies and even adults we get in that have to be hand fed. I know it has made a difference in the birds' ability to digest food better. I heartily endorse it.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

jojo67 said:


> *someone said on here pigeons can't digest milk, so why advise to give the yogurt,*


Kefir is milk base but becomes completely digestable after fermentation. Colostrum is not. Perhaps yogurt is too, but I have not used it, I make kefir and I can vouch for its digestability having used it on youngsters and birds with gut issues.

http://www.kefir.org/kefir_manual.htm


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Well, this is a touchy subject but....*

You can feed young pigeons and doves on soaked bread and water or milk or yogurt or probably even colostrum. Colostrum is hard to find and would probably be the best thing for babies that are still getting pigeon milk. 

Mammals have colostrum for the first few days and after that it becomes regular milk. This is extremely important in their first few days of life and probably contains something similar to pigeon milk, which is only fed for the first few days. It seems to provide them with antibodies that they will need later in life.

After a few days, the parents will feed their young seeds that have been soaking in their crops for a period of time. These seeds have been softened by sitting in the crop with water and are easier for the young birds to digest as their gizzard (the organ that crushes seeds) is not strong enough to work properly and they are not eating grit.

I have raised probably upwards of 50 baby pigeons and doves by feeding them whole grain bread and water. If they were younger than 10 days or so, I would soak the bread in milk. They all grew up to be adults and raise their own young. As the birds were near to the age that they would be eating on their own (somewhere around 4 weeks or so), I would start adding grain to the bread balls just by rolling them in seeds.

There is alot of nutrition in whole grain bread, more than enough to support a pigeon for a few weeks. Pigeons only need 13% protein and I'm sure that the bread that I fed would provide this. Also, if they are not flying in cometition or flying to forage for food many miles per day, the demand on their body is not very high.

Most pigeons and doves that people are hand-rearing, are already 2 or 3 weeks old when they find them. Any pigeon can live for another week or two on decent bread and water and be none the worse for wear. I am speaking from experience as I have done this at least with 50 or so baby doves and pigeons.

I would not feed a formula to a bird that would already be getting soaked, whole seeds from it's parents. Formula is nothing more than crushed seed anyway. It may be vitamin fortified or whatever but it is not necessary except in the case of the youngest birds, when they are unable to digest whole seed. There are plenty of vitamins in normal feed and even in whole grain bread.

If you have a brand new baby just a day old or so, this is a whole different ballgame and requires a great deal more care.

Bill

Please don't take offense to what I say, I am merely stating what works, as I have done this very many times.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi jbangelfish, and no offense taken. My babies are now 16 days old, and the parents _were _feeding them seeds. (Until they decided to go off and make more!  ) 

I have been trying to duplicate what the parents _were _ doing: soaking the seeds in vitamin-rich water, and feeding them. Their eyes are clear, they are pooping fine, and are quite active. I couldn't find the "keifer" stuff, and decided to just stick with what the parents were doing. I know they are not old enough to pick up seeds yet. That usually comes at about 21-28 days, if memory serves me right. That is why I soaked them. So far, they are doing fine. I still say they were beyond the "milk-stage", because when they did get fed, their crops just bulged with seeds. The parent bird would eat seeds, drink water, then feed the babies. What is going in, is coming out as good poops. I thank you for your input on this, and will for sure keep it in mind. 
If they were milk babies, I'd be more concerned, but it seems they are past that. 
Once they are fed, they settle into their nest in the crate, and are nice and quiet, and sleep. When their crops empty, we do it again. I guess I must be doing something right, they are still bright-eyed and pooping good. they are also active, and eager to eat when that crop does empty! Thanks for your expertise , I do appreciate it. It was very kind of you.


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

hi bill, good reading, as you know from experiance, milk or yugort and colostrum is ok for the birds,
I hav enought colostrum to do me for the next ten years, i only give it to the birds one day a week, and was told to add it to their feed for that day, and to only feed them it up until they are 2 months olds.
The colostrum is very like the yogurt, i poured it in to a ice cube tray and freeze it, and use it as needed, hope to see the benifits from it.

PS sue good to hear the birds are doing well, they will be nice tame birds,


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is an interesting thread and I'm always game to learn and try new ideas. 

Bill, I appreciate you sharing your experiences with the bread and milk. Gives me something to think about. I know that when we rescued our first pigeon about 14 years ago, we were complete dodos on how to take care of it. It was a young fledgling - just past the squab age - and we wound up feeding the little bugger plain bread rolled into small balls. He was fed this about two weeks until we started him on seed. He suffered no ill effects from this. 

I also thought he needed to take naps like a baby so about every two hours I would put him in his box and he would go to sleep about an hour and wake up raring to go. During most of this time we had him at the beach with us and I would put him on the porch banister and he would sit there until I took him back inside. We had a lot of doves and after he figured out he could fly, he would take off with the doves for a tour of the Crystal Coast.  He always came back and was later released. 

Needless to say, we had a lot to learn about pigeons.

Sue, it sounds like your little guy is thriving under your care. I know you love him to pieces.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Thanks Maggie & jojo. Yes, they are doing great. What's going in, is coming out. Oh, I think they will be real tame too. They sure know me already! Their parents are busy doing the "love thing" again  . Oh, well, I can handle these two. They are 17 days old now, so I guess I must be doing something right.... Thanks again,


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## aussiegirl (Feb 24, 2008)

What are those measurements in mils? 30 40 cc???
I need to know as ive also got a 2 week old here.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

aussiegirl said:


> What are those measurements in mils? 30 40 cc???
> I need to know as ive also got a 2 week old here.


mls and cc's are the same.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Best way to feed a two week old? Well I have always just hand fed babies by filling up their crop with seeds big and small until they looked like "Dolly Parton"
and when done always showed them water, dipping their beaks in it and always with a small ceramic loaf pan(bought at walgreens for a buck) full of small seed (from walmart has vitamins and minerals in it) showed this to them dipping their beaks into it and it wasn't long before they were feeding themselves and since I was placing large seeds in their beaks they sort of learned early how to handle the bigger seeds and also the pigeon pellets as well! The pellets I dipped into water first then placed into beak! Worked for me! Just remember the babies just don't need a little food they need a lot of food, their crops should be packed just like their parents would have done if they were good parents!


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## aussiegirl (Feb 24, 2008)

Thankyou, i guess there is always a first time for everything and i will be an old hand at this shortly!!
Yes, hes pretty full like a beanbag, sumodove!
Thanx


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