# 2 hatchlings...



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hello all and thank you for having such an awesome forum! I was thrilled to have found you via Google, wish I had found you a few days earlier, but better late than never!  

I'm in St. Louis, Missouri and this past Tuesday afternoon, a friend of mine phoned to say he had found two little baby pigeons while he was redoing his roof. He didn't know what to do, so I told him to look around for a nest first. He said he didn't see one and I asked if there were any pigeons around, maybe one was the mom, but he said no. He didn't know what to do and knowing how much I loved all animals, he asked if he could bring them over.

I was a bit reluctant, because during this past Spring, I had tried to nurse several other types of little birds that had fallen from nests. They had all died during the night and it upset me a lot and I really didn't want to go through that again.

Anyhow, he brought them over and I saw that they were soooo very tiny. Just a bit of yellow down on them, these huge black circles, where the eyes are supposed to be and generally very pitiful looking. I immediately went online to see what I needed to do to help these birds out. I was glad that at least my friend knew they were pigeons, as I was totally clueless.

I found one site that told me to feed them watered down cat food. So, I go to the store and and buy dry cat food, along with a syringe and a couple of eye droppers. After seeing several picts of squabs, I realize these two little guys had to have hatched earlier that day, so I read that they need to be fed every two hours. I knew I was in for a very long night, but was determined to do all I could to help them out.

I fed them this mixture every 2 hours. At first it was quite difficult to get their beaks to open, as they squirmed and twisted their necks around. They are so very tiny, I had to be very careful not to squish them, but managed to get food into them. I put them in a little box with some paper towels and get out a red lamp that I used a few years ago when I was incubating chinese painted quail and brooding them. These two chicks felt like little ice cubes while I fed them, so I wanted to get them warmed up.

I had no clue how warm they should be, but I was guessing from my quail experience it should be around 90 degrees or so. I put a thermometer on top of the little box and adjusted the light until it was around that temp. I was thrilled to see they survived the first 24 hours! I hadn't expected that at all. I was also happy to see they were pooping, because I knew what was going in, was also coming out, which I thought was a good thingy, lol.

Yesterday, Wednesday, I found your site! I was so happy to see an area on how to take care of squabs. So, I went out and purchased baby cereal and made them a little nest from a cool whip container. I fed them this every 2 hours again, until about midnight last when I was just so completely exhausted that I crashed. I totally freaked out when I woke up at 6am! It had been six hours since they had last eaten and I was terrified when I walked over to their little box, I just knew they were going to be dead. But no, they were still hanging in there and I feed them again.

Today, I fed them about every 4 hours and I need to do one more feeding in one hour, then I'll go to bed again. It's getting a little easier to feed them now, as I'm getting the hang of it and I'm very optimistic about them living for 3 days now. My friend stopped by earlier today and told me they were bigger! I hadn't noticed because I look at them constantly.

Ok, I'm rambling like mad and I apologize that this is so very long, but I'm sleepy and want to see if anyone can give me any advice whatsoever. Is it ok that my hopes are up that they will survive? What is the ideal temperature for them to be at now? How long until they open their eyes? I'm getting attached to them but think maybe they are not ideal household pets and I should let them go free, is that true? If so, how do I not make them tame or can that be done? If they are to go free, at what age do I let them go?

As you can, I have loads of questions, so any advice or information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading all of this and I look forward to reading your replies and checking out the forum more completely.

Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

*Oops...*

It's just me again and I noticed there was a 'thumbs down' symbol next to my post. I could of sworn I hit the question mark icon, but doh, I must be sleepier than I realized. So, my apologies.

I just remembered one more question. By feeding the squabs this baby cereal mixed with warm water mixture, it's oatmeal cereal, btw, am I giving them the best start nutritionally? If not, can you please tell me what I should purchase to make sure they get off to a healthy start?

Thank you again,
Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

*Ok, last one...*

I promise! I keep thinking of things right after I hit post, oy, I'm sorry to be such a nuisance, I hope you all don't think I'm a complete dork.

The first day I got the little babies, they were very still and didn't make a sound. On day two, one of them starting making a little chirping sound. Today, they both make that sound when I go get them to feed them. I hope this isn't the dumbest question in the world, but is this ok? After I feed them and put them back into their nest, they move around and peep/chirp a bit more, but by the time I get them back to the lamp, they doze off again and are quiet.

Oh geez, I forgot what my 2nd question was and I'm trying to remember because I said I wasn't going to post again.  Ok, it's 5 minutes later and I remembered, woohoo! I read something on this site about the "crop" on the squabs. I looked very closely at them, but don't know exactly where that is. I don't see the food go in there when I feed them, but go very slowly and make sure the eye dropper is behind the tongue and far enough to where I'm hoping it won't go into the lungs. I guess it's going in the right place, since they are still here, but can someone explain what this 'crop' looks like and where exactly it is on/under the neck?

Ok, I'm going to feed them now and then I'm really going to bed. I seriously think I only have two brain cells working right now, thank you again for your patience.

Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Late for work, so excuse my brevity!  

I am e-mailing you the ideal feeding plan , please read the instructions carefully!

Baby pigeons should be kept at 80 degrees farenheit.

The nest should not be made of straw but should have depth and grip at the bottom for their feet.

Cynthia


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Izzy, 

Good work on the baby pigeons. Pigeons chicks are very different from many birds in the fact that they are very hardy birds. Many baby birds are extremely fragile and succomb easily to improper diets or inadaquate temps. Baby pigeons are quite different and very resiliant creatures so you should have some luck with these ones surviving. Read what Cynthia left for instructions for them. If you have a heating pad, place this under their bowl on low for warmth and keep them in a small box to contain the heat. If you can go out to the pet store and get some Katee exact baby bird hand rearing formula this would be better than the cat chow. There are also others on the market that will suffice. The important thing to remember is to keep the mixture, (whatever it is) very thin and watery at this stage of their lives. You can thicken it later on as they get older. Pigeons make great pets and will quickly imprint on you and think you are mom, so it's up to you how you want to handle this. If you want them to be Wild again in the future, spend as little time with them as possible and when their eyes open, try to feed them without them seeing you. Sounds hard and it is, but if they see you then they see humans as friends. You could use a box with only a hole to feed them and peek through the top of it while your hands feed them through the hole. It's hard to explain. But in any case, if they end up being tame and they probably will, and you dont want to keep them, Someone on this site or someone they know will want them so releasing them if tame is NOT a good idea. You're doing a great job with them and continued wishes for success. Their eyes will open at about 5 days old and they can start being introduced to seeds at about 14-17 days old. 


Best of luck,

Brad


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi again Izzy,

The crop is just under the throat and as you feed them, you will see it expand like a balloon. The skin is very translucant and thin. Ideally you want the crop to be full but not "hard". After a feeding, just make sure that the crop area is mushy still and gel like. If you feed them too much, the crop can get impacted and then they have a hard time digesting the food. Don't worry too much and follow common sense rules and you should be fine. The "chirping" sounds are a good sign. This shows that the chicks are vibrant and energetic still. They will fall asleep after feedings and with warmth. Baby pigeons will sleep all the time accept when feeding. Feed them every two hours during the day and a couple of times over night. 



Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hello Cynthia and Brad! I received your email Cynthia, had a few questions, sent you an email back, thank you!

Thank you also Brad for your replies, it's nice to get 'first hand' information from those of you who are experienced, such invaluable advice that I'm happy to have found.

I think I understand where the 'crop' is now, they have grown a bit and now I do see where the food goes first. It's like a bit of saggy skin, kind of like a 'pigeon double chin', lol! I don't know that I'm been filling it up enough, usually 2-3 drops gets them swallowing and I wait like a minute until they stop moving their little beaks to make sure the food is down before I give them another bite.

The heating pad is a fab idea! Yesterday it got quite warm, 89 degrees outside, though it's usually in the 50's/60's in the a.m. When I went to feed them in the afternoon, they were "very" warm and so very lethargic. After a few minutes of exposure to normal air in the room, they really perked up though. I noticed they chirped the most when alone in the box, I feed them one at a time and one has to wait while the other eats. When they both finish eating, I put them back together and they cuddle, get quiet and fall asleep quickly.

As far as pigeons as pets, I never realized they were good pets, until I found your site! I want what is best for these two pigeons welfare, so I just assumed letting them go free was what they wanted and would be happiest outside in the city. I can't imagine not holding them or talking to them, I so enjoy that. I noticed this morning that there are tiny little slits in the middle of their eyes now, like they are starting to open their eyes, but it's very tiny. I'm going to try to get some pictures later to keep track of their progress.

I read a post about weighing them, that's an awesome idea also and I will start doing that today! Thank you again for your responses, I'm sure I'll be back several times a day as something new happens. In the meantime, I'll read as much as I can find here on this site.

Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

After feeding the crop should look like a partially inflated balloon.

I have copied and pasted this from one of Mary's old posts because she has included quantities for feeding:

At about 1-2 days old the baby only gets 1 cc of food (very thin formula, 1 part powder to 5 parts water + probiotics) every 2 hours by handfeeding (I would not recommend the tube unless you have a very thin one) and it's always best to leave the baby with a foster couple at this age. 

-Day 3-4 the amount can be doubled to about 3 cc every 3-4 hours or so and the formula should be a tiny bit thicker.

-Day 5-7 you can feed 10-11 cc every 5 hours and the formula should be thicker.

Cynthia


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Izzy, 

You're welcome. We are all hoping that these chicks make it and are routing for your success. Here is a detailed list of instructions about the young chicks and how to look after them. It's very detailed but try to keep the most important things in mind. It seems a little stringant and difficult but hopefully you'll get something out of it : 


REARING A BABY PIGEON:

Whatever the reason you may be called upon to take up the task of hand-rearing a baby bird, you must remember that it is very time consuming, especially with chicks that are very young. 
The following rules will help you to be successful.
1. The need for heat and humidity of the brooder.
2. The need for the correct recipe, consistency and temperature of the diet.
3. The need for the correct feeding technique, frequency and hygiene.
4. The need to monitor the babies progress and to be able to detect signs of problems.
The Need for Heat
A new born chick requires a temperature between 33-37 degrees C. As the chick grows and produces feathers its need for heat diminishes. 
The best brooder can easily be made from a glass or plastic fish tank or a laminated wooden box. Untreated wood or cardboard is ill advised as it harbours germs and prevents adequate cleaning. The heat source can be a heat pad or even a 15 watt light globe housed inside a tin can that is about 12cm across. It should not get hot enough to burn the chick. A hot water bottle changed frequently is another alternative heat source. Whatever method is used to warm the brooder the heat can be kept in by a simple lid of a sheet of polystyrene with air holes punched in.
It is important to closely monitor your charges. Chicks which are too cold become lifeless and are cold to touch. Chicks that are too hot at first will show a red wrinkled skin then become restless, pant, gasp and hurl themselves around the brooder in a frenzy. Overheating is often fatal.
• The floor of the brooder should be lined with fine wood shavings with a layer of paper towelling on top. The purpose of the towelling is to monitor the bowel movements of the young bird.
• Humidify the air via an open dish of water covered with wire to prevent an accidental drowning. Humid air will prevent dehydration of the baby bird. 
• Keep the baby warm (at least 80 degrees F). If the squab is completely without feathers (only has yellow down), a ventilated box containing a red light bulb is needed, (hot water bottles do not last through the night.) If the baby is fledged, then a cardboard box lined with kitchen paper is adequate
• Keep the baby dry! 
• Keep the baby in a quiet, safe place - away from noise, curious humans, cats, dogs, etc. 
How much, how often?
The consistency of the food will depend greatly upon the age of the bird. A youngster that is only a day or two old will be able to handle extremely thin watery food every 2 hours, if the crop has completely emptied.Newborn chicks have only small crops and will not hold much food at all. Do not force the chick to take more than it can handle. Remember they are very weak at this tender age and will eat very slowly and tire quickly. 
If you want to rear the bird yourself it is best to feed it 3-4 times a day. Acceptable foods include Complan fed through a syringe, wholemeal bread soaked in warm water or milk or a mash of warm porridge or digestive biscuit with a little scrambled or boiled free-range egg (about a third of an egg at first, increasing to half an egg per day). Unlike garden birds who gape when hungry, it is necessary for the squab’s beak to be gently opened to receive tiny pellets of food that should be pushed into the back of the throat. Feed until the crop feels plump or the bird loses interest. Food can be moistened, but do not squirt water into the mouth as baby birds can choke or actually drown this way.
You must get food and water into the baby: if she is too young to eat by herself, you will need to feed her by hand. Make a baby bird formula (whole meal bread soaked in warm water or milk or a mash of warm porridge), and buy a feeding syringe (no needles, just a feeding syringe).
Fill the syringe with formula; make sure it is not too thick or you will not be able to push it through. Carefully open the little squeaker’s beak. Insert the syringe carefully into her mouth and squeeze a little bit at a time. It will take you a good twenty to thirty minutes probably, and the squeaker needs feeding at least five times a day. Babies must be fed! The food should be made thicker to a melted ice cream consistency as the chick grows. Feeding intervals will be determined by the speed of the emptying of the crop. Only very young birds need feeding at night, and then only once at about 3 a.m. otherwise four times daily feeding until 5 weeks of age is adequate. The food should be given at 42 degrees F. This is the temperature that can be tolerated on the lip without burning. In between feeds boil the utensils etc. so as to prevent any food spoilage and subsequent infections. Syringes can also be used.
Feed your bird every day, even after she begins eating seed by herself. Spilled food around the face should be cleaned with a warmed clean cloth before it dries. A “bib” may help to keep the feathers clean as well as a fine warm water mist spray over the body when the weather is hot, but ensure that the pigeon does not get a chill. When she first starts showing an interest in picking up seed, she will need at least one more week of handfeeding to be sure she is getting enough nutrition. It takes a while for a baby to learn how to eat and drink, so be patient. Small seeds like millet can be added gradually until the youngster begins to feed itself. When the squab is old enough to begin to peck at seeds, provide a shallow dish of water and cage bird grit.
The first indications that the time for weaning is correct is the growing lack of interest in their food. When this behaviour begins a variety of soft foods can be placed in a shallow dish on the floor of the brooder or cage. Remove these foods after 6 hours and replace fresh each morning.Feed the birds only in the evening until they lose interest and then weaning should be completed.Weaning is encouraged by offering a variety of soft foods such as fresh corn, steamed peas, broccoli, pumpkin, carrots, apple, fruits, soaked lentils, beans, sunflower seed. Seed should be given in as small quantities as possible. Millet sprays are given on a daily basis to stimulate the weaning process. Clean seed mixes soaked for 24 to 48 hours helps your bird develop a taste for a variety of seed types.The newly weaned bird will try new foods more readily than at any other period in its life, so offer your bird a variety of foods during this time.Birds start flying at the same time as weaning . The birds should be provided with a low perch during the weaning process and offered water twice a day in a low dish. 
Once it is well feathered (appearing last under the wings), keep the youngster outside in some sort of cage safe from cats during the daytime. This will help it get used to other birds: encourage it to pick up it’s own seeds and grains and get beneficial sunlight. Ideally it should spend some time in a rehabilitation aviary. But if this is not possible, do ensure that the bird can fly properly and eat by itself before release, allowing it to strengthen and try it’s wings in a bedroom or garage. 
When you are satisfied that it is able to fend for itself, let it go in fine weather in a safe area, perhaps a town or city park, well away from cats, where it can join a regularly fed existing flock who have all year round access to water. 
About 45 days after birth, a pigeon can fly. Please do not release her until you are sure she can fly well and defend herself. If you release her, bring her back to where you found her or to a safe area nearby, preferably where there are other pigeons.
If you rescued her at a very young age and feel that she should not be released into the wild, or if any other injury/condition exists so that she can be released, then you should provide her with a good home. That means she should have room to fly and always have dry, fresh food and clean water.
Three weeks to independence 
At around three weeks, it is time to start the weaning process by leaving a few that small seeds for it to peck at and a container of water so do not it can drink. 
Very young babies that do not get real pigeon milk usually grow much more slowly than babies that get the milk so do not get discouraged and be patient. Hand feeding babies from day one is a last resort because they do grow much more slowly than when fed by their own parents, and sometimes they just do not make it. 
Babies need water, too. Keep a close watch on the babies when you first set them out to see that they get the water they need. Some signs to watch for are: blinking eyes or the crop (digestive tract of the bird where the food is stored before digestion) will feel hard. If the crop is hard, give them a little water with a syringe and tube, and massage the feed in the crop and it will soften up. Once you see them take a good drink on their own, they will not have any more problems. But make it easy on them. Always place the water in the same container and put the container in the same location in the cage. Just like people, pigeons need more water when it is hot, so watch them closely in hot weather. 
All baby birds are frail. Any period of cold weakens their ability to thrive, and infant mortality in nature is always high. 


Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

*OH my gosh!*

I think I finally know what the "crop" is! I was thinking it was like on the throat area, kind of like a turkey has one of those hanging skin things. But after rereading your posts and feeding them just now again, I think it's actually like the upper portion of their body! Is this right? 

When I turn them over and look at them, it's like their bodies are divided into two parts, the front and the back end. The front part kind of looks like a furry peach, it even has an indentation like a peach, then the back end starts, which is much more solid.

It is like a balloon! I hadn't ever noticed that the food fills up in there, until I finally paid close attention. I really had no idea of how much to feed them, until your post today, but was guessing.

I noticed since I switched over to just baby oatmeal cereal yesterday, they're really pooping a lot more now. It's also very watery yellow color and sometimes it's just a green glob. The first couple of days, they only pooped like once a day and it was a hard green and white thingie. Do they just poop more as they get a few days older?

I made a list of things to purchase to make their new formula and will be going out tomorrow to get all the stuff. But right now, I'm still just giving them the watery cereal mix. I noticed today how much longer the yellow down is on them. I also weighed both of them, one is .5 ounces and the other is .75 ounces. They both have little black slits in their eyes, I actually think their eyes are much smaller than I first realized. I thought they were HUGE, since those black circles on the sides of their heads are so large so I figured that whole thingy was an eye, but after looking closer, I see that right around the tiny black slit, looks like a little oval shape, is this the actual eye?

I feel like such a moron, not knowing anything at all about these little guys. Again, I'm so thankful to have found you all here, I don't know how I would of managed so far. It's been quite the learning experience and I know I still really don't know very much.

Oh, I also noticed little opening on the sides of their heads, is this their ear openings? I can't imagine what else it would be. I was able to get a few picts with my digital camera today, so I'll try to see if I can post them later on and maybe you can tell me what sort of pigeons I have also.

Thank you again,
Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

*Oops...*

I'm sorry, but I forgot to thank you Brad for posting those rearing tips, thank you! I have to admit I was feeling like, "what the heck have I gotten myself into" after I finished reading it all, but like you said, it's very, very detailed. I love having "more" information than less, so that post was extremely helpful! I happen to live in quite a humid environment, so I think luck has played a great part in helping these two little squabs survive for 4 days now. I have to admit, I've become extremely attached to them already, I'm such a sucker for any sort of babies, lol!

My two dogs are so used to my bringing in all sorts of hurt or sick animals, they barely raised their heads when these two birds came here. They have absolutely no interest whatsoever, lol! My youngest dog, Lily, starts to let me know when I'm coo'ing with them too much though, she's a bit bossy about being the "only" baby in this house, lol!

Ok, I hope to get a bit of rest, still not using all my brain cells, been a very long week of grabbing an hour of sleep here and there, can't wait until I can sleep a whole 5-6 hours again.


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Izzy,

Good luck with the babies....you are doing a super job.

Linda


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Liz and thank you very much! I'm not sure if I'm doing a super job, but trying my best, I sure appreciate the encouragement. Nice to know I have others to share this experience with.

I'm so happy to know what the crop is now, what a difference it makes, lol! I just fed them again and really paid close attention to what it looked like when I put them back to sleep a few hours ago after they ate. It's quite a noticeable difference now, about 25% of the size it was before, not nearly as plump. It's so amazing you can actually "see" where the food goes, what a really neat thing and so very helpful! I never knew they had things like that, I mean, most animals have stomachs on the 'inside', no way you could tell how full it was, except by squeezing around.

This is now bookmarked as one of my fav places. I was going to put up a couple of pictures, but too lazy to hook my camera up now and want to grab another hour or two of zzz's while I can.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Izzy, 

Yes, that information is a lot to digest and you really don't need to follow it all to the "T", it's just to give you more detailed info for further down the road. It was taken from a website and not my own instructions. I'm glad you found this site as well as there are lots of very experienced people here. "Marypigeons", and a moderator is one of the best here with lots of experience raising young pigeons from an early age. She recently hand reared two pigeons for me as well since my birds were unfit parents. The poops are a good sign, they will poop more with more food being fed to them and if they are getting enough. Those "HUGE" black circles on their heads IS in fact the entire eyeball. The eye slit is small in comparison. And the slits on the sides of the head, just under the eyes is the ears.  Baby pigeons that are getting fed properly will grow REALLY quick so your work will pay off soon. Once the eyes open and when they are a week old or so, you'll notice a huge difference in them size wise and strength wise. At this time you will have a much easier time feeding them and not having to worry so much about hurting them. Well, sounds like you have things under control very well, it's an exhausting job to hand rear any baby creature though. Keep us all posted and someone will try their best to help you out.



Brad


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

You are doing very well but orphaned hatchlings are at a big disadvantage, because they need the enzymes produced by their parents in those vital first three days of their life to absorb the nutrients. This is why it is important to make up the recipe I e-mailed you or to use Kaytee Exact. A third alternative is chickcrumbs, soaked in hot (not boiling!) water for half and hour, liquidised, strained three times and served at room temperature. For the first 2 days it should look like weak tea.

It will also help if you can give a probiotic as soon as possible to encourage healthy bacteria. Natural yoghurt has been recommended.

I haven't received the e-mail that you sent me, so please don't think I am ignoring any questions!

Cynthia


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi again Cynthia and Brad! I want to address both of you, but Cynthia first because of urgency.

That was one of my questions in my email, I'm sure it's my isp's fault, I'd have recent problems with sending/receiving emails.  Oh, the question being, they will be 4 days old tomorrow, er, today. Ok, they are 4 days old and I did read to give them the enzymes from days 1-3. I so wish I could of gotten out sooner to get these items, but I'm disabled, don't drive and it's difficult for me to get out. I managed to get a friend to get me all the items on my list this afternoon. First of all, if my friend just asks for "enzymes" at my local health food store, will they know what I'm talking about? I realize your recipe said it needed to be added to the MacMilk recipe, but are these 'specific' enzymes that he needs to be asking for? Next, because I missed giving them this on days 1-3, should I add the enzymes to this recipe as soon as I get them? If so, for how long should I add this to the Macmilk recipe? I have so clue what 'chick crumbs' are, but I'm assuming it's something I can find at a feed store? I hopefully won't need that because my friend will be making a trip to the pet store for the Kaytee Exact, which I called them about and they do carry. Ok, questions about the Kaytee Exact. I was having my friend get the ingredients in the Macmilk recipe "and" the Kaytee Exact. If I get the Kaytee, does that mean I don't need to make this recipe (macmilk)? Or is the Kaytee just a supplement I need to also add in their daily feedings? I'm sorry for all the questions and thank you for your patience in helping me here. I just fed them again and they just dozed off.

Brad, thanks again for the reply. I printed out your post, to have for reference. I'm finally noticing they are indeed growing a bit, but slowly. Mostly I noticed how much longer and curly the yellow down is on them, oh and how their eyes are starting to slowly open up. Wow, so that's the entire eye?? I'm sure as their body grows it'll balance out, right now it looks like their heads are too small for those eyes, lol! You are right, it's quite a task to make sure these little guys are fed and kept at the right temperature. I'm actually having dreams about them when I do get some sleep, lol! I have to admit sleeping a few hours here and there is catching up with me, I used to do this in my college days, but those are long past. I do work part time from my home on my computer, so I'm thankful I can be around them 24 hours a day, would be nice to have another set of hands around right now though. I don't mean to whine, it's a small sacrifice to pay to try to get these squabs off on the right foot, I just wish I could of gotten the things they needed sooner. I'll hope for the best and keep you posted.

Thank you again,
Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Again Izzy, 

You don't have to use both the Macmilk recipe and Kaytee formula, one or the other is fine. So whatever you choose, stick with it, keep the babies on that one diet. As for the enzymes, you can get them at a drug store and I think they have them in the baby section. It doesn't really matter what kind they are and yes put them in your formula mixture when you get them. Probiotics (acidophilus) can also be purchased at a drugstore. You only need a very tiny amount of the enzymes and use for about 3 days and that is it. Chick crumbs I (think) is a british term as Cynthia is from the UK, I think it's baby chicken feed here in North america. Hope this helps.


Brad


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

I think that you have the choice between the Mac Milk diet and the Kaytee now.

The difference is that the Mac Milk diet was created to replicate the crop milk fed to a baby pigeon whereas the Kaytee was created primarily for hookbills. However, Kaytee ingredients include a probiotic and digestive enzymes and as people on this forum have been successful in handrearing chicks on Kaytee it will probably be easier for you to stick to that. It is very easy to prepare which is important when you have two babies to feed.

Chick crumbs are essentially chick rearing crumbs, they are brown granules and I think they also include a digestive enzyme.

I am at work now and therefore cannot access the diet, but I think the brand name of the enzymes is in the notes at the bottom. In the UK it is called Panzym and it is a pancreatic enzyme. I found it very difficult to obtain in the UK without taking the hatchling to the vet. I don't know whether it would be easier to find in the US.

BTW this is what I read about Kaytee this morning:

Exact Handfeeding Formula (original and Macaw) contains pro-biotic to encourage a healthy population of intestinal micro-organisms. The selected species have been chosen specifically for their vitality, stability and wide array of beneficial effects in the system. Unlike Lactobacillus, the Bacillus spp. maintain their viability throughout processing and storage, while having similar modes of action and effects, on the digestive system. Digestive enzymes (amylase and protease) are included to ensure adequate digestion of carbohydrates and proteins. These enzymes are of particular value in the newly hatched baby or in a bird experiencing digestive difficulties. The Kaytee handfeeding and adult diets are compatible, eliminating potential digestive upsets as the young wean onto Exact adult diets or after pulling young from the nest of Exact fed parents. 







Cynthia


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

G'morning Brad and Cynthia! It's so very nice to wake up and see you two here.  I feel like you're holding my hand throughout this adventure with me, even though my arms would be incredibly long to stretch from the midwest to Canada to England, lol! Another reason I so love the net. 

Whew, I'm VERY happy to read I don't have to do 'both' the macmilk and the kaytee. Had I found you guys on day one of getting the squabbies, I can see how starting them off with macmilk would of been the most ideal solution. My friend should be here by noon today with my Kaytee and I'm anxious to get them started on that.

I still have a couple more questions, sorry about that. Cynthia posted that the enzymes are included in the Kaytee, so does that mean I do NOT need to purchase the Probiotics (acidophilus) and add to the formula? Or would it be ok to do add this for the next 3 days into the Kaytee? Now, after 3 days, I know not to add the acidophilus to the Kaytee mixture, but what about the enzymes that are already included in the Kaytee formula? Will this be harmful to keep feeding them this or is there another Kaytee formula that I should upgrade too that doesn't include enzymes?

I really can't thank you enough for all your help, don't know what I would do without you two.

Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Izzy, 

Yes, Cynthia is correct...the Kaytee formula does contain both the probiotics and the needed enzymes so if you decide to use the kaytee, there is no reason to buy separate enzymes and probiotics. You're very welcome for the bit of assistance. We have all been there at some point or another in learning about pigeons, their young and general requirements. After you open the kaytee formula, make sure to put the can or bag in the fridge afterwards to keep things fresh and good. Make new formula each time do not re-use unused mixture. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask.


Brad


----------



## pigeon_crazy (Sep 18, 2004)

hello, yaaaaaaaaaay.


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Okies, got my can of Kaytee Exact just in time for their 1pm feeding! Also got a syringe, which I was excited about, so I can measure how much to give them. Still couldn't fit the syringe into their little beaks, but at least measured out the correct amount and picked it up with the eye dropped which fits perfectly. Looks like I've been feeding them close to the right amount, talk about lucky.

I've already put the can in the frig, thanks for the tip Brad, probably wouldn't of done that if you hadn't mentioned it. I'll keep you updated.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Izzy, 

That is fine if you still are using the eye droppers, there are different sizes of syringes and you'd need a whole whack of sizes to work with otherwise. You might eventually be pressed to go that route though as the eye droppers dont hold much and it will get time consuming later on. You're doing wonderfully and much better than much laymen would ever be able to do Keep up the regular feedings, follow common sense, treat these chicks like human infants and things should progress nicely.


Talk to you soon, 

Brad


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Thanks for the updates!.

I think it is best to Keep the Kaytee slightly thinner than the instructions recommend and check that the crop flattens between meals.
I have read here that it tends to thicken some times in the crop, and you will want to avoid that.

Cynthia


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hiya again Brad and Cynthia! Thanks for the extra tips and I sure appreciate the encouragement. 

Now that I 'finally' know what the actual crop is, things make SO much more sense, lol! I do see how it's flat when it's time to feed them and how a it starts to fill up with each mouthful they eat, it's still all so amazing to me! It reminds me of a jelly fish, lol!

Looks like they are doing well with eating every 4 hours now and that is fabulous news for me. I could tell just by checking them at 2, 3 and 4 hours how the crop empties. Of course, it empties right onto the paper towels, which I change several times a day to keep clean and dry.

I read the detailed instructions that were contained inside the container of Kaytee. It said that if you are feeding them this after they have been eating something else to dilute the Exact with the other food, which would be the baby cereal. I didn't do that for the first feeding, would you recommend I do that for the next feeding time? Or is it ok that I'm giving them straight Exact? I am keeping it thin, it has the consistency of melted ice cream, very smooth, but not nearly as thin as pure water.

I'll be weighing them again right before the next feeding at 5pm, I'm sure hoping they put on a bit of weight. My kitchen scale isn't digital, so it might be tough to tell if they gained less than a quarter of a ounce at a time.

I took several more pictures today, so I have some from Day 2 and now Day 4. I plan on keeping a little picture diary of them until they are fully matured.

Well, looks like I have two new additions to my family, lol! It was small anyhow, with just my two dogs and myself. I know I need to do a lot more research on these guys as I want to make sure they have a very happy and fulfilled life. I'm not sure what to do about the 'flying' around part, but at least that's not going to be happening in the next week or so, thank goodness.

Thank you so very much again for all your help, it has been so extremely helpful. Not only for the squabs but for my sanity, lol! I'm sure I'll be back soon.

Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey again Izzy...LOL

The reason the kaytee suggests to dilute a previous diet with the kaytee is to get the babies acclimated to the new food. Most animals, pigeons included, do best on consistancy. When the diet is changed, it can make their tummies a bit upset at first until they get used to the change. And you're right, you've now got two new additions to your extended family Pigeons as adults, really don't require much care or special treatment thereafter. You will find, once grown, they will be a pleasure to keep. They do need space for flight and exercise though. They can be housed in an indoor cage, but regular freedom and extension is necessary. That is a bit down the line so when that time comes, we''ll be here to answer those questions and concerns as well.


Brad


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Izzy, 

Another suggestion as Cynthia said, keep the formula a wee bit thinner than they suggest in the instructions. Melted ice cream consistancy is a wee bit too thick for them right now. It should be only a tad "thicker" than water at this point. We are assuming they are quite young birds. And the Kaytee formulua does have a tendancy to thicken further in the crop. Thinner is better at this time. Observe their crops, if they are emptying fine, then no problems. It's almost like an analogy of flour in water and how that can really thicken and harden. The same is true of this formula in the crop of the chicks. Once they are around 10-12 days old, thicken the formula to the melted icecream consistancy. I'm not trying to scare you or worry you as you're doing fine and seem to be more than capable of intercepting problems and predicting them. Just another tidbit to try.


Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

I did notice as I let the mixture sit for a minute then it got thicker. The booklet says to stir it vigorously to thin out a bit more and that also activates the enzymes. It seems quite thin, about the same consistency as the baby cereal mix I had been giving them and it seems to be emptying out of their crops alright, so hopefully it'll go fine. Their little poopies are a bit darker than when they were just eating plain cereal, but not a real dark green, kind of like olive colored. They are so tidy and always go in one corner of the box and sleep in the other corner, lol!

I spent alot of time reading through this forum this evening and also watching them closely. I had noticed on one of the chicks that it's crop seemed to have like an 'air bubble' in there. I was happy to find someone posted about that and did what was told to them, to massage gently and it disappeared! I'm sure it's from the eye dropper feeder I have. I try to make sure it doesn't have air in it, but I know earlier today there was a spot of air in there, so I'm almost positive that's where it came from.

I learned alot about the syringe feeding tubes also. Ack, I could never put one of those thingies all the way down their throat into the crop! It's much too scary, though I can see how it can save time. I'm not in any rush anyhow and enjoy the 20 minutes to half an hour it takes me to get them both fed.

I was a bit discouraged to see they didn't put on any weight today from yesterday. They didn't lose any either, but I hope that I see some weight gain soon since I started the Exact formula yesterday.

I'm seeing a bit of their personalities also. The only way I can tell the two apart is because one has a much darker beak than the other. The darker beak one is very laid back and mellow. He falls asleep immediately after eating. The other one likes to chirp for a bit and kind of pokes at the other one until it finally goes off to sleep, which is about 5 mins. I notice they sure do twitch alot! I thought at first they were shivering, but I know the temp is fine, is that normal? Sometimes they start flapping their little wings too, like they are trying to fly somewhere, lol! I've seen them sleeping on their sides and on their backs, is that alright too? Their heads are so heavy for their necks and are always flopping around.

I hadn't realized there were SOOOO many breeds/species of pigeons, wow! I have absolutely no clue what mine are. All I know is that they are city pigeons, if that makes any difference. I found the link to Sara's pictures. They look very similar in the first couple of pictures except for that mine have longer beaks than Sara does. The down, wings, eyes and everything else looks the same.

I have a few pictures ready to upload, but having problems with my card reader at the moment. I hope to have them posted on here sometime tomorrow. Will you be able to know the species/breed even if they are only 5 days old? What about the sex? I want to name them, but would like to know if I have boys or girls or one of both, lol!

Ok, I'm off to bed finally. They will be set until about 9am, when they need to eat again. Oh, one last question, how long will I be feeding them this Exact formula? Is there a date, weight or something else that lets me know when I should be changing over to a weaning formula?

Thanks again for your time, information and advice.

Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Okies, I finally got a few pictures to show you, yippeee! These were taken right after feeding earlier today, they are 5 days old.  Not sure if you can tell what type of pigeons they are or if it's just too early yet. If you have any ideas though, I'd love to hear.

Ok, I just posted this and noticed my pics aren't showing up, but there are the two links there. Any reason why I can't have them show up right here in my post as a picture? I uploaded them via the 'manage attachments' post. I know they are under 100k, in jpg format, not sure what else I was supposed to do.

Thanks,
Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Awww! I LOVE them!!!!

Bless you, Izzy, they are unlikely to grow up to be any particular breed if they were feral babies, it is the colour that varies! But if they survive they will be the most beautiful pigeons in the world, whatever their colour turns out to be!

If you attach a single photograph it will appear in the post. Two or more will show up as links.

Cynthia


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Ohhh, ok, Cynthia, thanks for telling me that, lol! I try to think I'm a little computer savvy, so that was driving me crazy, lol! I knew I'd seen other pictures posted on this forum, didn't know why in the world I just had links, lol! I guess it's not a big deal if you can click on them and see them anyhow. 

Thanks for the compliment Cynthia, I have to admit I'm quite fond of them myself, lol! If memory serves me right, 'feral' is another word for wild, yes? So, does that mean they could be like a mix of different breeds/species of pigeons? I agree they will be beautiful no matter what they grow up to be, growing up is the part that is most important of all. I know that the majority of pigeons I see here in the city are a blue/gray variety, so I'm guessing they will be sort of like that.


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Here's one picture from Wednesday, two days old. Don't know if you can see much of a difference, except for the eyes. But the down has gotten longer and curlier since that day. Not a whole lot bigger, but hoping their new diet will correct that very soon.

Sorry the picture isn't the best, I was trying not to handle them very much and took the picture very quickly, lol.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Feral pigeons are all descended from the rock dove, which is the basic blue pigeon with the black wing bars. So the grey ones are reverting to their "pedigree". The prettier pigeons are essentially (in my view) mongrels, but so very beautiful in their variety. So if the norm out your way is variations of grey, then that is likely to be what they will grow into. But every pigeon has a distinctive personality and the real delight is getting to know your pigeon's inner self! 

BTW I much prefer it when photos appear as part of the post and you can see them in context!

Cynthia


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh wow, thanks for the info Cynthia! I still have so very much to learn about pigeons, lol! I can't believe how much I've already learned about them just since Tuesday. You are so right about their personalities though and I know I really haven't anything yet! Even as small as they are now, I have one (the darker beaked one) which is very calm and quiet and the 'other' one which jumps around alot, chirps and is generally very vocal, lol!

Can you tell me at what age I will be able to find out what sex they are? Is there a link you can provide me with that tells me how to sex them?

Thanks again!
Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Izzy, 

The babies look GREAT! Good work. It's very hard to sex pigeons until they are MUCH older. You won't really know until they are sexually mature at around 6 months old. My babies are 4 months and I'm Still not sure yet The babies beaks are the same colour as my chicks were at birth and I have a black and red pigeon. So, I'm thinking you might have a blue bar in the darker beaked bird and a lighter coloured, in the lighter beaked bird when they are adults. Just a guess though. Excellent work on them they look very good and healthy.


Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hiya Brad! Thanks for the compliments! It's great to hear from you experienced pro's that they look good, cause I have no past comparison to use, lol! I've had such good luck this past week with them, especially not having a clue what to feed these little guys. It's really a blessing they are still with me and I hope they thrive.

I feel like a mom taking out her wallet and showing off my kids, heh. Boy, didn't take me long to get attached, huh? I remember telling my friend the day he brought them over that the last thing I needed was a couple of pigeons, lol! I had expected them to be like the other birds I tried to rescue, so was really trying to mentally prepare for them to not make it the first 24 hours. I sure hope they continue to make progress because I know if I lost them now I would be completely devastated.

I'm very excited to see when the feathering part starts. I'm glad their beaks are a little different in color, because I would never be able to tell them apart otherwise, lol! I can't wait until they develop more and you know I'll be keeping you updated.

I know I've said this a million times, but can't thank you and Cynthia enough for your help! I don't know who I would talk to about this if it hadn't been for you two.

Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Izzy, 

I meant to tell you earlier to not be discouraged about them not gaining weight. Chances are, they have but your scale (since it's not digital) isn't showing you since the change is so small. You will continue to feed them this exact formula for up to 3 weeks most likely. But thicken the formula gradually as it instructs on the package. Also, tube feeding is not for everyone and it can be difficult and for someone that doesn't know how to do it, harmful to the baby. So, just continue to feed as you have been. 


Brad


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Izzy .. your babies are absolutely precious! You've done a terrific job with them! It can be a bit difficult when they are so very small, so you really, really have done a wonderful job with them.

Terry


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi there Terry and thank you so much! I just finished feeding them again and though it was really a struggle since Tuesday to hold them correctly and open their little beaks, just a little bit ago, as soon as I touched the sides of their beaks, they would both open up wide, lol! So, not only are they gorgeous they are very smart too, woohoo, looks and brains, heh. 

Today was a gorgeous day, right around 89 degrees. I was wondering if they were too young to be exposed to natural sunlight? It was a little windy, so I was worried about drafts and I left them inside today, but was wondering when it would be safe to let them enjoy the outside also? Should I wait until they have feathers before I start moving them around? They are so fragile and I don't want to push it.

Thank you,
Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh my goodness! I think the Kaytee is really kicking in because I woke up to two very vocal, demanding little pigeons about a half an hour ago. It was the first time ever that I didn't have to wake them up to feed them and they were very hyper, chirping a lot and looked like they were 'fencing' with each other with their beaks when I first saw them.

I was a bit alarmed, because I thought maybe something was wrong with them. Earlier yesterday they had 4cc's and it took 6 hours to empty their crops. Last night at 11pm, they each had 5cc's of Exact and their crops were empty at 4:45am. As I reached to take them out of their box this morning, both of them stood up immediately and put their beaks inbetween my fingers and opened up very wide! It was like I couldn't feed them fast enough! I gave them each another 5cc's, but they continued to move around and chirp very loudly. Their crops looked full to me, but as I went to pick them up and put them back in the box, they again, opened up wide. I figured they still must be hungry so gave them each 1 more cc, before they finally started to slow down and doze a bit. Normally, they are dozing off towards the end of the feeding and asleep when I put them back in the box.

Couple of questions, should I be paying attention to them when they want more food? Was it alright I gave them more today because it seemed to be the correct thing to do. Why was the crop empty at 5.5 hours with more formula last night? Do I need to maybe start to thicken the mixture a bit now? Should I just keep feeding them until they fall asleep? They seem so different today and I'm a bit worried. Their eyes are opened up pretty much now, I'll take more picts later today. 

Is everything that's happened this morning normal? I was used to them being pretty out of it most of the time, so seeing them move around so much and chirp alot was a little bewildering. 

Ok, last thing. I had decided to name them because I can't imagine waiting 6 months to find out their sex just to give them a name. I was going to look up some names to find something very creative and unique, but their names came to me last night after I fed them. The darker beaked little one is now named "Mel", short for mellow, as he is pretty laid back, dozing off alot. The lighter beaked one is now "Misty", short for mischieveous, as she is super vocal and always poking at my hands and crawling around alot. 

They are now 6 days old, if you want to add anything that might be happening in the next few days with them, I would appreciate the heads up, lol!

Thank you very much,
Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Just me again, it's been about an hour since I feed them. I just went to check on them and they are both chirping again and their eyes are open. I'm not sure what they want. They are not cold or too hot, could they be hungry again? 

Mel starts to doze off, then Misty chirps and wakes him up and they do their little 'fencing' thingy and it just keeps repeating.

Ok, I just looked in on them right now and they are quiet again, whew. I'm kinda stressing out, I just want to make sure I listen to them and that they are ok. I figure if they chirp it must mean something, right? Or maybe it doesn't?

Hope someone shows up soon.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Morning Izzy,

First of all, I LOVE your choice of names, very cute. I haven't named my birds yet, it's hard to make a decision As for your chicks being more active this morning, I think that is pretty normal. They gain strength quickly and now that they are being fed properly and a proper diet, this seems all typical. The sparring is also normal and sometimes siblings will fight with each other or even try to get food from one another. From my experience with babies and when Mary was handfeeding my chicks, they seem to learn to open their beaks for food as well. I'm thinking that the Kaytee is easier to digest and now that their systems are getting used to it, it might be digesting quicker now. You kind of have to work with what you see. When the crops are empty, that is when to feed them again. You don't need to feed them at night though at this point. Follow your instincts of exactly how much to give them. If they seem hungry still, give them a bit more. Just make sure that the crop never gets too full though. You probably could start to thicken the formula just a wee bit. Perhaps not to go to the next level quite yet that the instructions tell you though. I'm not a "pro" as you think I am. My experience comes from reading, learning and most recently from talking to Mary every day when she was hand feeding my chicks. I will talk to Mary to get more info for you, but she hasn't been around this weekend. Mary is the REAL "pro" with hand rearing and has done it so many times. Hang in there, everything seems very normal and very good so far. 


Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Good Morning Brad! Whew, glad to see a post, lol! I don't mean to be such a whiner, it's just today is so different from this past week of my having them. I had been used to very quiet little birdies, little chirping, but mostly sleeping. All this movement and chirps isn't something I'm used too, but you are right, it sounds normal. I mean, they should move and chirp, lol!

I need to use common sense and not freak out whenever I encounter something I'm not used too, so I'm kind of embarrassed about my couple of posts this morning. I tend to overreact and I apologize. I was just so afraid I wasn't doing something that I needed to be doing.

Ok, I'm rambling on again, thank you for your post, made me feel better. 

Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Izzy, 


There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to feel embarrassed about your concerns. Most of us pigeon "freaks" are very hyper-sensitive to our birds.LOL Never be afraid to voice your concerns to the forum. Mary should be around later this morning and I'll make sure she gets in touch with you and she will have many more answers and suggestions to calm your nerves  


Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

LOL, thanks Brad! I just felt pretty silly after rereading my posts. Asking if chirping and moving around is normal? Sheesh, I feel like that has to go down as the dumbest question in the world, lol!

I just so want to make sure I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing and not make any mistakes, if possible. They are still so tiny and vulnerable and even though they've only been here 6 days, I'm so very attached to them. I also don't want to post a message every second and start to annoy everyone here. 

Ok, I'll shaddup now and try to relax. Thank you again.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Izzy, 

I don't know your exact setup for the birds, but another thing you may want to do, is keep them in a darker area. Pigeons in the wild at this age would be incubated by a parent and it would be dark and cozy unless being fed. Perhaps it's too light where they are and it's keeping them "awake" more now. If they are in a box, perhaps cover it with a towel and just allow some light in. If they are just in the bowl a ventalated paper towel or such. This might keep them calmer when they are not being fed.



Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

I keep them in a small box that I have lined with a dish towel, then have paper towels on top of that. The box is in my spare bedroom, which is pretty dark, except for the red heat lamp that I have in there. I do keep a towel draped over half the box, to keep the red light from hitting them directly, but they still get heat still as the lamp is hanging a few feet above the box. 

I normally take them out and put them on another towel as I feed them. They stay warm under the light, but I did notice that Misty had her mouth open and seemed to be panting after a bit, so I moved them away from the lamp and she was better. I think she was getting a bit too warm.

It's been pretty quiet for the past hour, they are sleeping soundly, so I'm very happy about that. 

Uh oh, I just heard a little chirp, but won't go nutso, lol! I'm going to check their crops around 9am again, just too see how things are moving. They are pooping alot more now, which I'm sure is normal since they are eating more, lol! It's not as runny as before and kind of greenish white in color, but like little blobs. I think maybe I'm watching them a "little" too closely, lol!

Thanks for the tips and I'll be back very soon, I'm sure.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello there Izzy,

Wow! you got some excellent info from both Brad and Cynthia.. And you're doing such a great job! 
Almost everything was covered so far, but I just thought I'd post some pictures of the babies I raised for Brad.
I had them in my care since they hatched, my pet pigeons (Pearl and Dotty, that's them above in my avatar pic) cared for them from day one though in the nights I had to force them to feed the babies because they didn't know what they were doing half the time and Pearl was new to this especially.
They did make it though up to day 3 then I took over because Pearl started to feel sick, weak and wobbly.

The baby pictures might help you as they are marked by day and you can clearly see their crops and how much to fill it in each feeding by just looking.

This is day 4 for example, But note these birds are a different breed and slightly larger than feral pigeons at this age so there will be a bit of a difference:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/144151939/145189088jSOqFL

Here is my complete webshots album link with all the photos since they hatched:
http://community.webshots.com/user/marypigeons
http://community.webshots.com/user/mypigeons

The heating pad was suggested to you, you can stop using it when the babies are around 10 days old as they start to generate their own body heat and can get pretty warm if they have the heating pad on but for now they need it as they are still young.

Make sure you don't have them on a flat surface either, because they will move around and their legs will get stretched out and possibly splayed which can be a big problem. 
So what I do is have a really soft pillow or something where they can actually sit kind of "sinking" in a little area and both side by side with their feet under them in the proper position at all times, this prevents the splayed legs which I watch out for all the time.
You can have them sitting side by side after eating with their heads on the same side and cover their bodies slightly with a cloth but leave an area right in the front like a pocket for them to breath because at this age the parents will be sitting on them most of the time so they will like that  
Also do not use a towel under or on top of them as their toe nails can get caught and that's never recommended for baby birds.

Feeding: Overnight I used to only have the babies fed when they were about 1-5 days old (feeding every 2 hours day and night for the first few days of their lives)
Then when they were 5 days + I just fed them really late at night before I went to bed (11:00/12:00) and woke up early (sunrise) and fed them again, so basically they did fine overnight without feeding from then on.

Later as babies get older (9 days +) they just get their last feeding at sunset and their first feeding in the morning either at sunrise or a little later than that. And in the day time whenever their crops are empty and they squeek (every 5 hours or so)

Probiotics should be added to the formula at every feeding when they are 1-4 days old, this is very very important. The enzymes are included in the Kaytee so I didn't bother getting any as I didn't have access but if you do find some then sure you can add some in.

As the babies grow you can start to decrease the amount of probiotics adding it only once a day in one feeding, also you can add some crushed cuttlebone (very finely crushed and after removing the hard back bone) it looks like a white powder and it's a great source of calcium to add to the formula.
You can get the info off the container on how to gradually thicken it as they grow as well, this is important because at 8 days + the formula as thick as it might be tends to go through them very quickly so I prefer to switch to some ground up seed mixture or a ground pigeon pellet mixture that is made into a formula. (I can give you more details on that when you need it)

12 days + I always either use the pellet formula mixture or I soak the small wild birds seeds, add kaytee formula to it and hand feed it to the babies as they get in a natural diet by their parents at this age which consists of mostly whole seeds.

For now your babies look very good, the squeaking and peeping is very normal. Their eyes should open up very soon and those holes behind their eyes are the ears. They will sleep most of the time and move around but try to keep them in the nest area and make sure they don't flip over on their backs, that could be dangerous.

If you are having trouble keeping the formula warm while you feed since you are handfeeding then you can use a steel bowl with boiling water in it and put a small ceramic bowl with formula inside so it can keep warm while you feed, and occasionally stir the formula and this works perfectly not to let the formula get cold quickly!

You're doing excellent with the handfeeding and I'm so glad to hear it.
(I prefer tube feeding myself as it takes afew seconds but like Brad said, it's kind of tricky and you need a bit of experience so things go smoothly) 

Take care and if you have any questions at all, just post and we will do our best to help!


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hello Mary and thank you soooooo much for all the info! Yes, Cynthia and Brad have been awesome, don't know how I would of made it through last week without them. 

Like I mentioned to Brad earlier, I just wanted to "know" what to expect so I'm not freaking out when something happens that I'm not aware of, lol! I realize this is tough, not having any experience at all, but I'm learning a lot.

The weather is very warm here, high 80's and I don't have a heating pad, but have been using a red light that I used when I had a brooder for my button quail chicks a few years ago. The quails were super easy compared to baby pigeons, lol! As soon as they hatched in the incubator, they were ready to eat on their own, so I never had done any hand feeding before. I do know about splayed legs though, so I made sure they weren't on a slippery surface. I'm keeping them a bit farther away from the red lamp now, as it puts out quite a bit of heat. I push it closer in the evening when it gets cooler. I can start to see by their skin coloring when they are too warm, they get kinda red looking and generally look uncomfortable. When they are cold, they shiver.

The quails would squeak too. When they first hatched in the incubator they squeaked like crazy, I was really freaking out then! I found out that was very common for them to do, but couldn't let them out of the incubator for 24 hours, so they would be completely dry. I found out later when they squeaked it was usually for some reason. They were too cold, too hot, needed feed, etc. That's why I'm thinking if the pigeons squeak, they are asking for something also. I realize the occasional squeek will happen and I don't have to sprint to them each time. I did that earlier and Misty just squeeked twice and went back to sleep, lol!

They are now 6 days old, so I need to start to figure out what to get to supplement their formula later this week. This part is confusing to me, because when I went online to Petmarts, there were SOOOO many varieties of seeds and stuff I didn't know where to even begin!

Can you make suggestions on what I should purchase? I don't want to wait until the last minute, though I know they will still be eating this Exact formula for a little longer. It does have the probiotics included in there, so I'm not adding anything extra to the mixture.

Great tip about keeping the mixture warm while feeding! I'll definitely use that tip as it seems to cool off very quickly.

Also, if anyone can give me tips on what type of housing I should upgrade too next. They are in a small cardboard box right now that has a soft towel on the bottom and that's covered up with several paper towels that I change daily. I really didn't want to just get a 'bigger' cardboard box, but not really sure what they need to be living in. My button quails lived in a clear, plastic rubbermaid container. I cut the inside of the lid out and replaced it with screen mesh, because they have a tendency to jump straight up into the air. Would something like this give the pigeons enough air circulation? The buttons were super tiny, about the size of the heads of these baby pigeons, lol!

Thanks again Mary, I really appreciate your time. I will check out your links now. 

Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Syringe and balloon feeding!*

Hi Izzy,

I don't know whether your searches on this site have turned up photos of the syringe + balloon method of feeding. Karen introduced me to this and the photo below is of her pigeon Maddy, who was a "battered squab" but is quite grown up now!

The method is to cut the tip off a 10ml (or 20 ml for older babies) syringe and tape a piece of party balloon over it instead. You fill the syringe with formula, cut a slit in the ballon and guide their beaks to the slit. They slurp the formula up with such enthusiasm that you have to ensure they don't overeat!

Cynthia


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh wow, I haven't seen that anywhere, thanks for posting that Cynthia! What a great idea, I have the syringe, I always have balloons on hand (kids next door), so I could definitely get that rigged up! The only other type of feeding photo's I've come across was with the tubing, which I'm totally staying away from, lol!

How old would you guess they would need to be for me to first try this balloon method? I'm guessing they are still way too young at this point, they can barely control their head movements right now. Do you think as soon as they are able to hold their heads up we could try this? At what age would you guess that would happen?

Thanks so much again!
Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The syringe and balloon method imitates the way that they would feed from their parents beaks, so they should be able to do it at their age. Take care though that they don't submerge their nostrils in the formula and give them little "breathers" between slurps!

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is what Alison said about using the syringe and balloon method on hatchlings:

_I started feeding Teeny at about 4 days, but wished I started from day one as the smallest crop tube was too big to go down her throat. So it can be done from day one, but making sure they don't eat too much, so just 2 seconds of beak in and then out again!_

Alison


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Cynthia and thanks for the additional post. I did set up the syringe with the balloon after reading your post yesterday, but have to admit, I was a bit nervous, so I just fed them with the eye dropper again last night and this morning. They bob their heads quite a bit and I was afraid they would maybe suck the formula up their nostrils.

They are so amazing! I mean, they practically open wide without my even prompting them too now, lol! The eye dropper fits down their throat and I take turns feeding each of them until their crops are almost full. I have to admit the dropper causes a few air bubbles in Mel, Misty never seems to have any. As they get bigger, I know this will start to take way too much time, so I will try the balloon method very soon.

I have a question about them being tame. I mentioned my only experience with birds were button quails, from a few years back. Even though I handled them from hatching and on a daily basis, they never would get tame. I read on a quail site the only way to tame one was to keep it separate from other quails, where they couldn't see OR hear another one. So, I was wondering, since I have two pigeons, will they be tame or are they 'more' tame is there's just one of them?

Also, can you recommend any good reading on pigeons? I'd love to learn more about their behaviors, how to eventually sex them, how to build a suitable home, etc.

Thank you,
Izzy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Mornin Izzy, 

Glad to hear that things are still going well with the babies this morning. Are they getting bigger? Hand reared pigeons will remain tame to some degree as long as you interact with them on a daily basis. Until they reach sexuality maturity they will take great interest in you and be very loving and loyal pets. Provided Misty and Mel are indeed male and female, they might eventually pair up together with no other pigeons around. OR, one of the other might pick you for a mate!!! LOL. In any case, they will be very tame and trusting with you for a long time. Pigeons almost always have one male and one female chick in a brood. You can buy or build a cage for them but they do need flying time out of it on a daily basis for at least an hour/day. As for reading material, you could go to your public library or pick up a general pigeon guide at a pet store. 



Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi there Brad, nice to see you again. Oh yeah, the library, I always forget about that place, lol! I'm so used to getting everything online nowadays, I don't venture out so much.

I hang out with them quite a bit. Mostly they are sleeping, but I hold them right after feeding and kind of pet them, though I don't know if they really 'like' being petted or not, lol! Yes, they are getting bigger! I'm taking picts everyday, but since I upgraded my windowsXP to service pack 2 the other day, I'm having probs with my card reader again. They each weigh one ounce now, so they have doubled in weight!

I know you mentioned before about them having to get out and fly around. If I let them go fly outside, won't they just go and fly away?

I do need some reading material about them. I wasn't sure if there was one that you all recommended as the best one. I think I'll go and check out amazon.com and see what they have and come back and get your opinions.

Izzy


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

The book I recommend is the first one I got, which is 'Pigeons' by Matthew M Vriends - published by Barrons, ISBN 0-8120-4044-9

I got it from what used to be called PetSmart, where they have a whole series of pet books, for the UK equiv of 9 dollars (but that was a few years back)

A small book, but with loadsa info on pigeons, baby pigeons, feeding, ailments, housing - all kinds of stuff

John


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yes, That books that John Mentioned is a good one, I have it as well. It's loaded with good info about pigeons and tells you a lot about their care and needs. We were thinking you would be keeping your pigeons as indoor pets so letting them fly outside is not a good idea. Are you not interested in keeping them indoors? Mine are kept indoors, so are Mary's and many other people on the forum keep indoor pigeons.  



Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi John and Brad! It's funny because that was one of the first books to pop up when I searched Amazon, lol! I found a used copy for $4, so I ordered it.

I really hadn't thought about where I was going to keep my pigeons. They won't have much flying space in my apartment, as it's quite small. Not too mention my dogs like to chase things that fly, ackers! Hmm, I'm not sure what I'm going to do, I guess I'll have to figure that out.

Basically, I want them to have a happy and healthy life. I want what is best for them and honestly, I have no clue what types of lifestyles are beneficial for them. I guess I figured since they were wild, they would be tame while they were young and dependent, but then would outgrow that. Again, I need to do much more research and see how they do indoors versus outdoors. Then I need to see what it is I need to do to make them comfortable and happy. If you have any advice, please feel free to share. 

Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

*Balloon Syringe*

This message is for Cynthia, as she made the original post about the 'balloon syringe'. If anyone else has experience with this, please jump in.

Ok, I need more specifics regarding this type of feeding device. I tried it twice today and it was a totally fiasco! Extremely messy, with formula spilling out everywhere and getting all over the squabs, so I'm sure I'm not doing something correctly.

I first tried it earlier today with a water balloon. Basically, it's a regular balloon but much smaller. I wasn't sure where to cut the little slit into it, but put it on the side of the balloon. When I filled the syringe it just poured out. So, I filled it again and made sure it didn't spill this time and tried to feed them. I think the slit was too small because they kept getting just the bottom beak in and I wasn't sure if they were supposed to put their entire beak in there or not.

Just a little while ago, I tried it again, but used regular sized balloons this time. It didn't spill out immediately this time, because it was larger and I made a slit on the side again, a little longer this time. I guided Mel's beak to the slit and he immediately plunged his entire face into the balloon, gobbling up food and getting formula all over him. Misty did the exact same thing. Boy, you were right about making sure they don't eat too much, they went nutso!

Oh and on the syringe thingy, I just cut the 'tip' of it off, was I supposed to cut the entire bottom off? Also, do you think it would help to put the slit in the balloon on the bottom of it? I hate to keep trying this and making such a mess, these little guys could use a bath right now as some of the formula has dried on them.

Ok, last question. Can I bathe them? If not, how can I clean them up a bit?

Thanks again,
Izzy


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Sorry, I'm back again. 

I went and looked at the picture of the Maddy eating from the balloon syringe and also reread your post. I didn't notice you had said "piece of balloon", but just saw it now, doh. OMG, no wonder I couldn't control the mess, I had this entire balloon on the end of the syringe, lol, I'm such a dork!

I realize now, that I do need to cut the entire end off and just recover the end of the syringe with the balloon material and then when I cut a slit in there, they can only go so far in there because the end of the syringe is there and their faces can't go in there!

Geez, you should of seen us today, me trying to get Mel and Misty's head out a purple balloon, oy, I sure feel dumb.


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Wow! I just finished feeding Mel and Misty and I can tell I made the balloon syringe correctly this time, lol! They still lunge forward and stick their entire beaks in the balloon opening but I was able to hold them in a way that they didn't stay in there long. I'm just glad they can't stick their entire heads in there now, heh. They act like they are starving and are so hyper, it's really fun to watch. It's soooo much easier than using the eye dropper, whew. 

They are also eating ALOT more than just a few days ago. They each eat about 6-7 cc's every 6 hours now. I think I will thicken the formula up a little bit tomorrow as their crops emptied kinda fast today, around 5 hours. I think I could probably feed them a little more also. I was just so afraid to 'overfeed' them, but I see now that their crops can really hold a lot of food in there, lol! They also keep chirping and poking between my fingers, like they are looking for more food, so I gave them one more cc and that seemed to quiet them down quicker and they fell fast asleep.

I noticed today their skin is getting darker. Mel, is almost a purple/burgundy color and Misty is more pink, not nearly as dark. I'm planning on taking more picts tomorrow and hope to get them uploaded so you can see how much they have changed since Saturday, it's quite amazing!

It's really a joy having these two around. I'm feeling good about their future now, though I know I'm not totally out of the woods yet, they are still very young and vulnerable. I'm just feeling much more optimistic than I did last week.

Thanks again for being there everyone, it's great to share my adventures with Mel and Misty with all of you. I'll be back later today. 

Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Yes, you cut the whole bottom off the syringe and cut a piece out of the balloon, tape that to the end of the syringe and cut a slit in it.

And yes, it can be messy! In the picture I am feeding Maddy and she isn't making a mess, but Karen had already trained her! I am certain that if I tried it on my own I would start off with formula everywhere!

I know that Karen and Alison have used this method so I will direct them to the post to share their experiences!  

Cynthia


----------



## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi, yes the balloon method can be very messy to start of with, but the more you use it the easier and cleaner it gets, all down to trial. I did notice that if make the tiny hole in the balloon first you can then stetch it to the right size dependant on the pij's age, and I used the electrical tape to hold the balloon in place because sellotape tends to slip whilst formula is being heated up. 
I used chick crumb for mine and I have also noticed if you liquidise the formula first it is so easy to draw into the syringe, and you can store this formula in a fridge upto 48 hours, when your ready to use it place the syringe with the formula into a cup of boiling water. 1ml syringe requires 5 seconds, 2 mls - 1 seconds, 5mls - 20 seconds- 10mls 1 min - 20mls - 90 seconds. From 10 days use half water half crumbs. Add some vit supplement to one meal every 2 days. Hope this helps, Maddy done really well and so proud of her success  - Karen xx


----------



## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi Izzy, sounds like your doing really well with the balloon method, they sound so sweet and by the sounds of it growing really quick now  - Karen x


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Cynthia and Karen! Just finished our morning feeding and though it was still on the messy side, I think we are both getting the hang of it now, lol! Really helps to make the syringe correctly to begin with, oy, you should of seen us with this big honking balloon hanging off the end of the syringe, filled with formula, dripping everywhere and poor Mel and Misty diving into it. Of course, it's kind of funny now, but was quite frustrating yesterday.

They are just so smart! I know they have to be smarter than most pigeons their age, heh. Last night was their first 'correct' feeding and today, even though they would plunge their beaks into the syringe, I was able to pull it back a bit and they would stay still and eat.

They were so dirty though! With dried bits of formula all over their faces and necks. I got a very warm cloth moistened with warm water and was able to clean them off pretty well. I was careful not to get them wet and they look TONS better now.

From comparing them with the picts of baby Sarah, I think mine have pin feathers today! I'm not positive, so I will try to post a current picture this afternoon. I'm sure all of you will be surprised at how fast they have grown! Seems like last week, from hatching until they were 4 days old, they didn't grow at all and then all of a sudden, it's like they had a major growing spurt, lol! I'm sure giving them the Exact formula has been extremely helpful, giving them the nutrients they really need right now.

Thank you again for your posts and yes Karen, it's like they are practically growing before my eyes.  Thank you also for the extra 'tips' on using the balloon syringe, it's so very helpful.


----------



## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

Hi Izzy, tried to send you an e-mail from this site, but don't know if it got to you. I was going to send you photos of the syringe/balloon method, but it looks like you have got the hang of it!

Alison


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Morning Izzy, 

Sounds like you've become a pro now in the pigeon hand rearing department You really should feel proud of yourself because raising young pigeons is not something everyone can do. They are hardy creatures but they still require a certain level of care in order to be progress nicely. They do grow REALLY quick and the kaytee is probably kicking in now as you say. Pigeon chicks do have a knack for putting their beaks into cracks, between fingers, in slits etc., so Cynthias idea was very good and obviously working well for you now. This should really help you when they are older and need more food at a time. I'm glad you got them cleaned up a bit because bacteria could grow on them otherwise on the dried food on their faces. Glad you ordered that book, you will find it very informative and helpful to you since you're new to pigeons. I'm really curious to what you will do once they are grown...keep them or release or find another home for them. If you think they have grown on you now, just wait until they are older and all cuddly and independant  My babies are 4 months old and still VERY tame. They love to preen my ears, hair, whiskers and sit on my head and shoulders anytime I let them. They Know they are pigeons but seem to prefer human companionship over other birds. I have 2 other birds as well; their parents but they are kept separate right now until after they are all done moulting and once the babies are a little bit older as well. Well, sounds like you've got things well under control and are enjoying things better now and not so nervous. Btw, what does your friend who found them think now? I bet he is quite surprised that they are still alive and so big. 


Take care for now,

Brad


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Ali! I did just get your email, thank you for that! I think I am finally getting the hang of this, it really helped that I made the syringe correctly, lol! Thanks for the offer for the pictures also, if you don't mind emailing them to me that would awesome, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for me to see more pictures anyhow. 

Hi there Brad! Awww, thanks so much for the compliments. I have to admit I'm feeling much more confident now. Can't believe it was just a week ago that I was freaking out, lol! Not nearly a pro, but I'm working on it.  Yes, they do love poking their beaks between my fingers and last night, Misty crawled over to my feet and was poking between my toes, lol! They usually keep poking around and then fall asleep in my hand with their beaks resting between my fingers somewhere.

I'm glad I was able to get them cleaned up also. I didn't even realize that bacteria could grow on the dried food, I was mostly doing it because they looked very dirty, but glad to know there was a better reason to do this.

I really thought alot last night about what I want to eventually do with them. I think all of your input will definitely help me make the correct decision. These are my thoughts on them. You know that I am very attached to them and only want the best life for them. I was wondering, since they were born in the wild, well, in the city, if that's what they should go back too? I mean, I don't know if I have a male or female or what I have as far as gender goes and would it be wrong to keep them if they are both the same sex and never get to be around other pigeons? I guess because pigeons are so abundant here in my city that I wonder if that's where they belong. It's not like if I rescued a puppy, kitten or parrot or something, they don't live in flocks or groups outdoors, but pigeons do. I would never set something "free" that couldn't take care of itself. At the same time, I wonder since I'm raising them from day one, am I not giving them the skills they will need to survive with other outdoor pigeons? There's no way I could let them go and me not be 100% sure they could take care of themselves. Even if they can fend for themselves, they will think all humans are friendly, right? What if they happen upon someone who shoots them or gets close enough to hurt them? That is my dilemma. 

I want to make sure if I do decide to keep them, that I give them all they need to have a happy, healthy and fulfilling life. That I'm not depriving them from anything that they would get being with a flock in the city. I'm confident my dogs are happy. I love them, play with them daily and know I do a lot more for them than other people would, they are my children and I treat them like that. Sheba is 12 years old now, I've had her since she was 6 weeks old, Lily is 6 and I've had her since 5 weeks, so this is the only home they know.

Anyhow, if you Brad or anyone else has personal input on this subject, I would love to hear it! Just the thought of my letting them go makes me sad, but I do care for them and want them to be happy, that's all that matters.

Izzy


----------



## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

Hi Izzy, I haven't read the story of these 2 from the beginning, if they are siblings then they are most likely male and female, but not 100% definitely!
I always like to release healthy pigeons if possible, mostly as I need to keep my aviary free for disabled ones! How old are they now? If they are a couple of weeks old now they are young enough to lose their tameness, when they start to wean you would need to start backing off from them and spending less time with them, only handling when necessary and not talking to them etc, even though it is hard! They could be released into a flock when they are about 3 months old and would learn how to find food from watching the others.
Or you could free fly them, which is what some of mine do, let them go from your house/aviary and they will come back, the only one of mine which didn't come back was an old racing pigeon. You could probably let them out on their first flight a about 7 weeks of age when they will be quite young and inexperienced in flying so hopefully won't shoot off in excitement and not return!
Of course if you have an aviary they could go out as soon as they wean and start to practice their flying whether you are going to release them or not.
Birds are hard to release back to the wild if you don't have access to an aviary as they need to build up their flight muscles, become more independent away from humans and become acclimatised to the weather.
Hope this helps!
Alison


----------



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi again Ali! To spare you from having to read a novel of a thread, I'll give you the condensed version of how I happened upon these two babies, aka, Mel and Misty.

Oh, before I start, yes, they are siblings! How awesome that would be if they were indeed male and female. I know this will sound crazy, but I swear they are, lol! I mean, the darker one, who I've named Mel just seems to me like a guy and Misty, a chick, lol! I could definitely be wrong or even have them mixed up, but I have a gut feeling about them being male and female, they are just so different from each other.

Ok, I acquired Mel & Misty last Tuesday afternoon. A friend of mine found them while he was working on the roof of his apartment building. I'm 99% sure they had hatched earlier that day. He looked for a nest, but couldn't find one. I got them around 7pm that evening. I started feeding them a mixture of baby cereal/moistened kitten chow and started doing research and found this site the next day.

They will be 9 days old tomorrow, Thursday, and I think they are doing amazingly well! I really didn't have any expectations when I received them, they looked just pitiful and I didn't think they'd make it through the night. With the help of Cynthia and Brad, I started them on Kaytee Exact this past Saturday morning and they are growing in leaps and bounds! I have two picts of them from days 2 and 5 posted in this thread, btw.

I live in the city of St. Louis, Missouri, in an apartment. I have no aviary, don't have the space even if I wanted one. Small fenced backyard and two bedrooms. Mel & Misty have the small guestroom to themselves. I keep it warm in there and it's quiet, dark and peaceful. They were discovered only a few blocks from where I live and I see pigeons around here ALL the time, they even live on the roof of my building. 

I'm not sure how they could build up their flight muscles. They could fly in my apartment, but it's quite small. I'm just not sure what to do. I care about them very much and know I will just get more and more attached to them as time goes by. I know if I released them, they would find other pigeons very soon, but I know I will worry about them for awhile.

I guess it's just a personal decision. I just want them to have a fulfilling life, that's it. If I can give them that, that would be awesome. I wish I lived in the country where I had space for them to fly around. So, that is what worries me...can I make them happy?

Sorry this was so long, I tend to ramble even when I try not to type too much, lol!

Izzy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

If your friend found them together and there was no nest then where they were was almost certainly their "nest" although there should have been a parent bird with them keeping them warm. 

Pigeons do not have a reputation for building good nests, often 2 twigs will be "it".

One of my pairs build the tallest nest you can imagine, a towering contruction of tobacco stalks, another builds a beautiful dishlike shape lined with feathers, it looks like an open flower, a third just lays eggs on the bare boards of the box perch that they call home.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumping up for rescuers of baby pigeons to read!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumping the subject up to top of list!

Cynthia


----------



## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

**

So, how old are they now ??? Can you start to see their colors?!


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumping up for Moleman


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumping up!


----------



## traci_sss (Nov 24, 2004)

Hi Izzy

I am so happy the babies have you to look after them. They sound like they are doing well under your care. I have been where you are and thank god for this site and the amazing ppl on it. I thankfully only had one bird. Hegee was very demanding and she was a squeaker. A squeaky wheel is the sound that best describes their little noises. 

The wet/dry cat food mixture is more for larger birds such as ravens. I have hand fed two ravens. When they are hungry they will open there beaks so you can drop the balled mixture in there. They are way easier to feed. haha

I found it really great when I fed Hegee( my pigeon) and she would clamp down on my finger so I would not have to hold her mouth open and it was easier to use the syringe. I will admit Hegee and I looked like we had suffered thru the explosion of the cereal box. We were covered in baby cereal. She would fling it from her beak, head whatever. The sun deck was covered. (My husband would not let me feed her in the house after the first couple of explosions. Wrapping them in a hand towel that can be thrown in the wash after every feeding comes in really handy. ) Eventually I started to mix in small seeds. I would ground them up in the blender. I even mixed in banana/ apple baby food. She did not like the beets. LOL  I had to start using a cake decorator tool because it started to get too thick. I had to mix in a lot of water. Hegee looked like she has small tumours on her head because she had seeds, pablum, and feathers all stuck together. A warm bath quickly solved that problem. I now have a beautiful pigeon. That follows me everywhere, has taken on the characteristics of our dog, and She has changed my life. I look forward to future posts re: the babies. what have you named them. 
Don't worry about how many posts you write. I think I wrote most of my posts the first week. 

all the best


----------



## traci_sss (Nov 24, 2004)

Hello Again

I forgot to mention, I waited to start adding new ingrediants to Hegees' diet until she was about 8-10 weeks old. See forgot to mention something oooops.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumping up


----------

