# Need the right formula for how many bird i could keep?



## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

hi all 

IM in a verge in building a new loft to give my birds more room , what i want to know is how many birds i could keep on a loft that is 10 by 6 by 7? . i keep hearing 2 feet per bird or do they mean two Square feet per bird , im planing of building a aviary outside the loft also, this way i know when i reaching my limit Capacity of my loft. thanks


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

10 X 6 =60 sq ft....so your limit is 30 birds.
You can "NOT" count the Aviary in you square foot.
And you will need 45 perches.
And don't forget you will need Nest boxes also.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

sky tx what happen to the rest of the square feet like 360 square feet of it. that alot of wasted space then, 10*6*7= 420 square feet, your only counting 60 square feet, the bird are not going to be living on the floor, like you said i will need 45 perches , not planing to put breeding boxes inside, my breeding will happen outside the loft on my pvc ariary been very successful with it , remember i dont have winter here , if rare to see the temp go below 55, I want to have complete control of my homer breeding best flyer breed with the best flyer,not trying to pi$$ your off or anything like that i know you one of the top dog in pigeon talk so i have alot of respect for you , just want to know from you why the low numbers for a lot of volume


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Sorry rafael
Guess I misread his numbers
I thought it was 10 foot long x 6 foot wide and 7 foot tall.
Hope you can explain 10 X 6 X 7 and I will redo my numbers.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Rafael/PR said:


> sky tx what happen to the rest of the square feet like 360 square feet of it. that alot of wasted space then, 10*6*7= 420 square feet, your only counting 60 square feet, the bird are not going to be living on the floor, like you said i will need 45 perches , not planing to put breeding boxes inside, my breeding will happen outside the loft on my pvc ariary been very successful with it , remember i dont have winter here , if rare to see the temp go below 55, I want to have complete control of my homer breeding best flyer breed with the best flyer,not trying to pi$$ your off or anything like that i know you one of the top dog in pigeon talk so i have alot of respect for you , just want to know from you why the low numbers for a lot of volume


You are measuring cubic feet, H x L x W. Square feet is L x W. In your case SkyTx is right. 

Something you need to know is about the maximum number of birds. And I don't recommend one bird for every two square feet. My loft has 64 square feet and there is no way I would even entertain the idea of keeping 32 birds. My magic number is 24. Maybe 28 for a short time if I have to.

Climate does not affect the number you can keep per sq/ft. only some of the loft design. Here we have a lot of snow in other places there is a monsoon season and other places there is nothing but desert. But the number of birds kept in any given amount of space remains the same.

Take care and enjoy your new loft.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

it really funny on everyone view from diff parts of the USA on how many birds you could keep in a loft , born and raise in Brooklyn NY and know lots of people in my youth who had loft or pigeon coup as we say in NY that those number will be easy double more like 1 pigeon per cubic feet and there birds where very healthy. seeing a sick bird was rare . and i don't think anyone is wrong here on those numbers , to me what most important is how much time you put into your loft, cleaning it and keeping it dry.and pest free. if you one of those lazy person that clean the loft once a week and then you asking for problems even if you have 15 birds in a 60 cubit feet area compare to someone who has 30 birds for the same area and put at lease one hour time to clean everyday, it make a huge diff. most new yorker at my time had more time on the roof with there birds is because they didn't want to step out in to the real world because it was a war zone, shooting everyday so they almost live in there loft. so i could relate to what Mike Tyson was talking about in his show. my loft will have a cap of 30 birds,


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Rafael/PR said:


> it really funny on everyone view from diff parts of the USA on how many birds you could keep in a loft , born and raise in Brooklyn NY and know lots of people in my youth who had loft or pigeon coup as we say in NY that those number will be easy double more like 1 pigeon per cubic feet and there birds where very healthy. seeing a sick bird was rare . ....clip.... my loft will have a cap of 30 birds,


And I thought you were going to fit 400 birds in your 420 cu/ft loft. I was going to ask for a picture. 

Clean is great and the only way to go but there is something else to consider. Stress. The birds will stress themselves out if they are banging into each other and they would with 1 pigeon per cubic foot. Which as we all now know is an area 1 foot high, 1 foot wide and 1 foot long. Some say rollers like it that way... I don't know but it just doesn't ring true with me. Maybe when you hit half of your 30 you will look around and see if you can easily fit that many more into your loft.

Take care and keep us up to date and don't forget pictures... everybody like pictures.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

lol, no no not crazy yet , what im saying is in ny we count also cubit feet while the rest of the USA count square feet ,let me proof my point look at theses video notice the sizes of the loft and notice how many pigeon are inside and count how many Tyson let out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k65t0lbWwcc and the second video count how many pigeon are in the air! and this is coming from one loft remember the loft in ny is mostly in the roofs so they are not 10 by 12 or or anything bigger .freeze and count http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCTgHu5_E8&feature=related believe it or not but this is the normal size flock of pigeon you will see in NYC sky, most of Europe also go by the cubit foo tas the same also as nyc , this third video this guy is well over that limithttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICSUELaAlU&feature=related


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The formula says you can have 30 birds. 2 square feet for each bird. When they are crowded, there is stress which causes sickness. Sickness also spreads faster in a crowded loft. With more room, the birds are happier and healthier. I know many do crowd their birds, but that isn't good for them. And doesn't make it right. You asked, and the formula says 2 square feet per bird. You can point out a lot of videos and lofts where they do crowd, but that doesn't change anything.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I know many do crowd their birds, but that isn't good for them. And doesn't make it right.... You can point out a lot of videos and lofts where they do crowd, but that doesn't change anything.



I agree. Just because others do it doesn't mean it is good for the Pigeons....

I also agree w/ Rpalmer....even 2 sq. ft. per bird sounds like _too little_ room to me.....


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

i don't believe on the stress part too much on crowd loft Jay3 compare to a having a few pigeon and you have a bully who keep picking on the same bird while in a more crowd loft that same pigeon wont be harass as much,plus what are perches are made for ?not only a place to sleep but a place of security, two crowed pigeon loft and sickness mmm that don't hold water if you birds are sharing the same drinking dish or container, most of the time you get your birds sick is when you get a new birds and don't put them on quarantine for 3 weeks at lease, also you shouldn't put your birds back with the rest of the flock if they just finish a very long race or if you birds took a long time to return to the loft from a race because you dont know what he caught out there because they are at there weakest state they need to rest and a good look over to see if they got hurt or they got a hitchhiker with them. I learn this from the older fellow in nyc , agree about over crowed but that all depend on loft design.your perches etc.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Rafael/PR said:


> i don't believe on the stress part too much on crowd loft Jay3 compare to a having a few pigeon and you have a bully who keep picking on the same bird while in a more crowd loft that same pigeon wont be harass as much,plus what are perches are made for ?not only a place to sleep but a place of security, two crowed pigeon loft and sickness mmm that don't hold water if you birds are sharing the same drinking dish or container, most of the time you get your birds sick is when you get a new birds and don't put them on quarantine for 3 weeks at lease, also you shouldn't put your birds back with the rest of the flock if they just finish a very long race or if you birds took a long time to return to the loft from a race because you dont know what he caught out there because they are at there weakest state they need to rest and a good look over to see if they got hurt or they got a hitchhiker with them. I learn this from the older fellow in nyc , agree about over crowed but that all depend on loft design.your perches etc.




Whether you believe it or not doesn't change anything. It is what it is. 
Why did you post the question in the first place? Did you really want good advice, or did you just want to argue? Some are more concerned with the well being of their birds, and some just want lots of birds and giving them as little space as they have to. Good luck with your birds.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

no i like to hear diff sides of pigeon keeping and i want to hear your argument to why you believe your way is right i don't see black and white i see color, you go to diff part of the world every place is diff about this subject.if you go to that NYC with that argument they probably laugh at you , and your not wrong to what your saying , its just a diff opinion , just like diff part of the world raise cow , chicken differentially , there really not a wrong way or right way .we learn from each other because of those different opinion, so don't get upset about it the way it is around the world . like i said going to your way a little and my way with 30 bird for a 10 by 6 by 7 loft in my opinion that a good cap


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It isn't my opinion. I didn't come up with the formula. And it was probably made for people who can't look at a bunch of crowded pigeons and_ see_ that they are crowded. So they need something to go by. You aren't arguing with me. You are arguing with the "experts" that devised the formula. I don't like over crowded stressed out birds. But like I said, each to his own.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I am interested who made those formula up myself. I am still searching. I hope there is real scientific evidence to it instead of some made up formula. I also don't understand why aviary is not included in that equation.

I must agree though that overcrowded birds perform less and spread disease faster.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

RodSD
Please post your Formula that you use .
How big is your loft?--Number of birds you keep?
How many square foot per bird
How many perches per bird.
Correct the Formula.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I used the same formula. I am just trying to figure out the science behind it. I've read about ventilation, bird's respiration, gas exchange, poop's emitted gas, etc. and the formula seems to be an approximation.

It seems that the housing for homers is different compared to other birds. I am thinking of rollers, for instance, where you can overcrowd those birds and still do fine unlike homers which seems to be different.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

That Formula Is New , Pigeon Keeping Been Going For A Long Time On Overcrowd Loft And Like I Said In The Tri States In The Northeast Is 1 Bird Per Cubit Feet And That Not Going To Change Anytime Soon , It Not Me , It That It Always Been This Way Since I Could Remember , That Is Why I Posted The Videos , But It A Good ARGUMENT . Europe , China , The Far East All Go By These Number , And You Could See It On You -tube For Proof


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I could only imagine the chaos I would have if I used 1 sq ft per bird.
I have two lofts one is a 4x8' and the other a 6x16'. The 4x8 is now at 16 birds and I feel getting rid of 4 would do it good. The 6x16' has only 13 in it now and seems to get messy fast. Having 48 in their will probably be to much. Even with its 2 levels of boards going around 3 sides. I will have to see as my numbers grow.

Height does not matter. You have all those birds poop dropping down all those birds eating and drinking off the same floor space ect.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Here are the numbers that scientists/vets recommend from health perspective:

Design Criteria for Pigeon Lofts

*Floor area/kg body weight* (0.25-0.5 m(squared))
*Air space/kg body mass* (0.25-0.5 m(cubic))
*Hourly air exchange/kg body weight* (270-320 ml)
*Maximum content of dust * (10 mg/m(cubic) air) 
*Maximum content of toxic gases:*
Carbon dioxide (2000 ppm)
Ammonia (20 ppm)
Hydrogen sulfide (10 ppm)
*Room temperature* (5-28 Degree Celsius)

From Vogel, Curt, etc. Columbiformes.

I suppose this is where those 2 square feet per pigeon was taken from. Apparently 1 square feet per pigeon is fine, too.


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## Jerryx4 (Jun 9, 2011)

I have 8x4 and to me I believe it bases on how much they fly.
All but 2 of my birds are flyers and are let out once to twice everyday weather pending.
Currently I have 14 in there and needs a good clean out every week, scraping etc every evening.
They are all fit and healthy, cocks hens and squeakers together. for breeding season I have a 3x2 2 pen breeding box I put in one end that has perches all over it as well.
Also the other 2 birds are in a small kit loft I also use for breeding. safe to have 2 - 3 pairs in there just for breeding.

All about management


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

This give me a idea ,with the members of pigeon-talk ,since we have people from all over the world here like jeryx4 he from Australia , we could do a survey to see how many pigeons the members have in there loft, and what size loft do they have,what state or country there from. kind of pigeons they have, and most of all what rule they use to determent how many pigeon they could keep in there loft


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Rafael/PR said:


> This give me a idea ,with the members of pigeon-talk ,since we have people from all over the world here like jeryx4 he from Australia , we could do a survey to see how many pigeons the members have in there loft, and what size loft do they have,what state or country there from. kind of pigeons they have, and most of all what rule they use to determent how many pigeon they could keep in there loft


So you never wanted to know how many birds you could keep. You just wanted to push your idea as some sort of quasi fact. Just drop it. You are not learning or helping others.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It really doesn't matter where you are from. It is determined by common sense, and trying to do the best for your birds. Any part of the world where you find these people, you will also find those that crowd. You asked a question, and it was answered. In the end, everyone is going to do what they want. So this thread really isn't going anywhere.


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