# Newbee Questions (Lost Bird)



## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

I have several questions:

My white homers are now approximately 12 weeks old. They have been exiting their loft and re-entering just fine via the traps. The birds only fly around the loft and land on top of their loft. I have forced them to fly around the property, but had one fatal accident with one bird when it was flying to low and struck an electric fence wire. The bird was killed instantly! That was a shocker for me. The question is, when will these birds be ready to be release from some distance and return to the loft? Reason, I released four birds two days ago from not more that one-half mile from the loft. It was late evening about 1 hour prior to sunset. Three of the birds ringed-up into the sky, while one bird flew and landed in a tall tree. The three birds continued to circle for almost five minutes and then headed out of sight, but in the wrong direction of the loft, due west, when the loft was due north. Anyways, the one bird stayed in the tree, and I left it there. I went back to the loft to await their arrival. Approximately 20 minutes later, the three birds arrived and landed on the roof of the loft. They entered the traps about an hour later at sunset. The one bird never returned. I went back to the release site and the bird was not there. Day two now, and the four (lost bird) has not arrived back to the loft. What possibly went wrong with this lost bird, are these birds still to young, or was that bird sick, or what? I am reluctant to release them again away from the loft for fear of losing more birds. One-half mile from the loft is nothing, why did they take so long to find their way home? And last, is it possible the lost bird may still find his way home days later and how common is that?

Thank you all!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

the bird may make it back. I would just let them fly around the house for at least 3 months befor any training tosses. And then you can take them down the road. They will be more used to the loft location by then. And less likely to get lost as easy.


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Thanks for the response*

Thank you for the great response! Yes, I did keep them in the loft to eights weeks, because I purchased them from a guy 150 miles distance from my loft when they were already 6 weeks old. He told me to keep them up in the new loft for another 4 weeks before releasing them outside. They have been now outside for two weeks, but not venturing off very far, they only fly off the roof of the loft when I scare them off, or when I release them 200 yards away from the loft from a dog carrier.

I will continue to fly them every morning like you said and hopefully they will start flying more. 

I do have one baby bird now that is only 5-6 weeks old, but he can barley fly. Should I release him outside and let him land on the ground, etc?

Question, at what age will the bird reach breeding maturity, for I need more birds, and do not want to lose anymore. 

Also, is it very costly to ship birds via US post office? I do not want to drive another 300 miles to pickup a dozen bird, if I can have them shipped. The reason I went to get them so far was because they were my first set of birds, and second, they were only $10.00 ea., plus he threw in two free ones. The awful thing was the same day he was selling 30 breeder birds to another guy, and all the baby birds they had would be left to die, for the buyer did not want them. That really pissed me off, when I was paying money for the birds.

Thanks again -

Ed
http://austringernc.tripod.com


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## newbie (Feb 25, 2005)

I have had one of my birds return after being missing for three weeks. When we moved to our new home, the first time I let the birds out in their new surroundings, I had a male that did not return. I was sure he was gone forever when he did not appear after a few days. Imagine my surprise when three weeks later, he appeared and was walking around the roof of his loft looking for a way in. These pidges are quite resilient. I hope your bird returns.. CR


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

They have been now outside for two weeks, but not venturing off very far, they only fly off the roof of the loft when I scare them off, or when I release them 200 yards away from the loft from a dog carrier.

I will continue to fly them every morning like you said and hopefully they will start flying more. 

I do have one baby bird now that is only 5-6 weeks old, but he can barley fly. Should I release him outside and let him land on the ground, etc?

***********************

ReLee has given you good advice. I wouldn't be chasing any birds off of the roof. When they are mentally ready and confident to go, they will. In the meantime, just let them sit and observe. You shouldn't be basketing these birds until they have been clearing off for at least an hour at a time.
As far as your youngster is concerned, you can manually place it out in the flight or landing board daily. Eventually, over the next week or so, it will work its way up and out. Be patient and you will minimize your losses.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Austringer said:


> Thank you for the great response! Yes, I did keep them in the loft to eights weeks, because I purchased them from a guy 150 miles distance from my loft when they were already 6 weeks old. He told me to keep them up in the new loft for another 4 weeks before releasing them outside. They have been now outside for two weeks, but not venturing off very far, they only fly off the roof of the loft when I scare them off, or when I release them 200 yards away from the loft from a dog carrier.
> 
> I will continue to fly them every morning like you said and hopefully they will start flying more.
> 
> ...



Please, please, please -- for the sake of your birds, and your wallet, do NOT buy any more birds from this guy!

$10 birds are just that -- $10 birds. Next to worthless, and going to be lost easily, and likely not in the best of health. The two he "threw in for free" were probably sickly and he wanted to be rid of them.

At 12 weeks of age, your birds should be 'touring' - flying out of sight, gone for half and hour or more at a time. We race young birds out to 100 miles by the time they are four month old.

At 5-6 weeks of age, a baby should be flying up to the aviary, and up to the loft roof when let out. If you have one that age that can barely fly, there is something wrong.

GOOD white homers are very difficult to find. Cheap, poor quality "feather merchant" (identical to puppy mill) whites are easy to find. Sounds like you've got the later.

I love my white "dove" business and birds. I hate - absolutely hate -- the ones who raise a barnful of whites - then sell them as a "get rich quick" scheme - THEY are the only ones getting rich - and laughing all the way to the bank. They know you'll be back for more birds -- because what they sold you was crap.

Sorry to be so blunt - but I see red when I hear about stories like yours. They come up so often now, I could just about cry.

Try checking out this website -- and asking the good folks there if they know anyone REPUTABLE to buy good whites from. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WHPF/

There is a list somewhere on that forum on what to look for in a breeder/seller. Find it, read it, live it.... if you really want to have good, homing whites.


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

WhiteWingsCa said:


> $10 birds are just that -- $10 birds. Next to worthless, and going to be lost easily, and likely not in the best of health. The two he "threw in for free" were probably sickly and he wanted to be rid of them.
> I love my white "dove" business and birds. I hate - absolutely hate -- the ones who raise a barnful of whites - then sell them as a "get rich quick" scheme - THEY are the only ones getting rich - and laughing all the way to the bank. They know you'll be back for more birds -- because what they sold you was crap.


I think you're being a little hard on the AUSSIE. Just because he picked these whites up for $10. doesn't mean that they are poor quality necessarily. And the free ones aren't necessarily sick either.
You can buy a lot of junk for hundreds of dollars, it's out there, all you have to do is be willing to part with your hard earned cash.
I think your problem AUSSI is that you are new to this and it will take a bit of time which equals experience to develop a system which will work for you.
If you are happy with your birds, hang on to them, get to know them, be patient and think in terms of starting your white release at a later time. By all means continue with a breeding plan and if you have questions, feel free to ask


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Lost Bird Returns Home*

Gentleman,

Good news to report today, the lost bird came home this afternoon after two days...WOW! That was exciting for me. I will now continue as advised and start training a few months from now.

Is there anyone out there located in North Georgia?

All the best -

Ed


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Grizzled said:


> I think you're being a little hard on the AUSSIE. Just because he picked these whites up for $10. doesn't mean that they are poor quality necessarily. And the free ones aren't necessarily sick either.
> You can buy a lot of junk for hundreds of dollars, it's out there, all you have to do is be willing to part with your hard earned cash.



If you'd heard as many stories as I have about people being suckered by "feather merchants", you wouldn't think I'd been too hard... you'd think I'd been too soft!

Free birds are always junk or sick. But when someone "offers" to throw in a couple of free ones when you've just bought some -- and when you find out afterwards that he's selling older birds and letting their babies die, you can be reasonably certain that this guy is raising as many junk birds as he can as quickly as he can to make a quick buck -- and he doesn't care a whit about his birds.

Yes, you can buy junk for hundreds of dollars too -- been there, done that. 

Price - high or low - doesn't determine quality, I agree. But when it comes to whites -- if they are prices real low, and you know nothing about the guy, you're taking a big risk with your money.

12 week old birds should be flying for hours at a time -- if they aren't they are weak or sickly, 9 times out of ten.


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

WhiteWingsCa said:


> Free birds are always junk or sick.
> Yes, you can buy junk for hundreds of dollars too -- been there, done that.
> 
> Price - high or low - doesn't determine quality, I agree. But when it comes to whites -- if they are prices real low, and you know nothing about the guy, you're taking a big risk with your money.
> ...


I don't see the situation as black & white as you do, WHITEWINGS, but that's what a message board is all about.
I believe AUSSI picked these birds up a little late and because of his inexperience, wasn't able to get them up and out as quickly as you or I might, therefore the birds may be somewhat delayed but that doesn't mean they are necessarily inferior.
Let's check back with AUSSI in about a month from now and see how he's doing.
White birds can be produced in many ways. You can start with piebald whites with bulleyes, or you can breed from homozygous ash red grizzles which will produce whites with yellow or pearl eyes, or you can take a number of pieds from winning backgrounds, mate them together and eventually, by breeding birds which display the most white, produce an all white family. So it's not that good whites are so difficult to produce but that most fliers are not interested in cultivating or flying them. 
So for anyone interested in developing a family of whites which are able to fly competitively, it is a project that would be worthwhile and quite rewarding.


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Status of the Birds & still some questions??*

Okay guys...I have some good news. The one bird that was lost returned home. Second, all the birds are flying around the property pretty well. Although, I have still been catching and releasing from 300 yards in sight of the loft, the entire flock to see what happens. What I have discovered is that there are 5 birds out of 10 that will continues to fly around the property for about 10-15 minutes, and ring-up very high in the sky, but the rest of the flock will fly almost directly to the loft and land on the roof. Not sure why yet. It seems to me to be the same birds every time, but I can not prove that. I have wormed all the birds, and subsequent tests reveal negative on worms. I am flying the birds in the morning now as suggested at about 0900 hrs. What I do is place food for them in the loft so when they enter, they are rewarded immediately. Not sure if that is a good idea, or not.

As for the other 5 birds that are not flying as well, I suspect they are not in as good of condition as the others, for maybe low in weight, or possibly sick in some other way. Although the possibility still exists that they are still learning.

Question. what would be the best method used to determine which are the best 5 birds that are flying consistently? They are all banded with the same color bands. Even if I placed different color bands, I think I could not recognize them in the air even with a scope, or it would be difficult. The reason I ask, I want to determine the bad birds from the good one, and possibly separate and examine them more carefully over time.

In the end, I suspect I will train them all, and the ones that do not return home, were probably of bad genetics, and is something I would not want to breed anyways.

All thoughts appreciated!!! And, if anyone out there ever wants to donated a pair to me, I would appreciate it so much! I am building a second loft that should be ready in two weeks. I would like to compare birds in the future. I am very intrigued by the behavior of these birds in general.

Thanks you all for taking the time to respond.

Ed
http://austringernc.tripod.com


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Austringer said:


> all the birds are flying around the property pretty well. Although, I have still been catching and releasing from 300 yards in sight of the loft, the entire flock to see what happens. What I have discovered is that there are 5 birds out of 10 that will continues to fly around the property for about 10-15 minutes, and ring-up very high in the sky, but the rest of the flock will fly almost directly to the loft and land on the roof.
> I am flying the birds in the morning now as suggested at about 0900 hrs. What I do is place food for them in the loft so when they enter, they are rewarded immediately. Not sure if that is a good idea, or not.
> 
> As for the other 5 birds that are not flying as well, I suspect they are not in as good of condition as the others, for maybe low in weight, or possibly sick in some other way. Although the possibility still exists that they are still learning.
> ...


So you have 10 flying out of which 5 are flying and 5 aren't? Well they should all be flying together eventually and staying up and clearing off. Give them about a month and if they're still dragging their butts, you have some kind of serious problem(health or otherwise). I wouldn't be basketing and tossing them at this stage; it's too early. Wait until they are flying together as a team and leaving the area for at least an hour.
You can use coloured marker bands, with 10 birds you should be able to sort them out.
It's too early for you to assess these birds...give them some time to develop and be certain there are no obvious health problems(check the droppings, throats, are they rattling or wheezing etc.)
It sounds as if you have the morning release on an empty crop and the feed ready when they trap under control. Are you observing them when they trap and eat? Are they all trapping together and are they all eating together? How much are you feeding them and how often?
For donations check with WHITEWINGS.
Good luck!


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Feed Questions?*

Okay, this is the latest. I will stop basketing them and allow them to just fly from the loft. Question, What I am feeding them is simply 5-way chicken scratch with additional whole corn added to the mix. They seem to leave much food wasted on the floor of the loft. I am not sure if I am feeding to much, or they do not like this food. I understand there is such a thing a pigeon feed, or pigeon pellets, but my local feed store does not carry any, therefore, I am left to make-up my own feed. This being the case, what do you all recommend? Second, how do you determine the proper amount of feed per bird to feed, for I do have a grip on this I suspect. With my falconry bird, I simply weigh the bird if I have to, but I can judge her weight now by just simply looking at her and holding her. As for the pigeons, I suspect I may be over feeding, or not the right feed, and that could be leading to some of the birds lacking condition, or the ability to fly like the others. I have checked the fecals several times since I wormed the birds, and they seem to all be negative. I can re-treat them again for worms, but I do not want to over stress them at such a young age. I have been basketing them every morning and releasing them from 300 yards in sight of the loft, to force them to fly, but the catching of the birds every morning for the basket I suspect could be stressing them out at such a young age, but not sure. I will discontinue the basketing method as suggested.

BTW, today 4/17/05, at 0900 hrs, four of my birds flew for over 45 minutes non stop, many time out of sight. Two bird flew for 5 minutes and landed, and the three other bird refused to fly. When all birds are done flying they land on top of the loft, but ill not enter the loft till later in the afternoon.

Thank you for again for your responses.

All the best -

Ed


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

From what I read about homeing pigeons, at this point you can rate them. The ones that return straight to the loft are reliable. The ones that sit on the rooof and BS, or come home two days late not so much so.

They are just like people and some will always be more reliable than others.


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Austringer said:


> What I am feeding them is simply 5-way chicken scratch with additional whole corn added to the mix. They seem to leave much food wasted on the floor of the loft. I am not sure if I am feeding to much, or they do not like this food.
> Second, how do you determine the proper amount of feed per bird to feed, for I do have a grip on this I suspect. As for the pigeons, I suspect I may be over feeding, or not the right feed, and that could be leading to some of the birds lacking condition, or the ability to fly like the others. BTW, today 4/17/05, at 0900 hrs, four of my birds flew for over 45 minutes non stop, many time out of sight. Two bird flew for 5 minutes and landed, and the three other bird refused to fly. When all birds are done flying they land on top of the loft, but ill not enter the loft till later in the afternoon.
> 
> Thank you for again for your responses.
> ...


Ok you've got 4 that seem to be on their way. Just continue with the morning release and include them all.
Your feed is all wrong for pigeons. They need a good mix of high quality whole corn, peas, wheat and milo as a base.
You can get by with a whole corn/PIGEON pellet mix, but get rid of the chicken feed.
Your birds are leaving feed behind and don't trap immediately but wait until the day is done which equals overfeeding.
The next feeding you give them, cut it to about 1/4 of what you have been giving them. If they beg you for more just ignore them. Make certain they have water.
The next day release them. As soon as they hit the roof, call them in and feed them. If they trap give them 1/2 of the normal ration. If they loiter hold the feed back or better still take them off their feed for 24 hours until they respond to your request. If you've got 10 birds they really don't require much more than 1/2 of a big tomato can of feed.
Be patient. This will take a bit of time to correct but it is do-able.


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

I give my birds exactly how much feed they will eat and they stoped throwing it on the floor. This way they dont poop on it and it it. Also I have trained them to eat from my hand. So they accept me as their supreme pigeon leader. If you are going to breed the pigeons. I would rate the reliable ones and only alow them to keep eggs. I would let the others sit on plastic.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Grizzled said:


> White birds can be produced in many ways. You can start with piebald whites with bulleyes, or you can breed from homozygous ash red grizzles which will produce whites with yellow or pearl eyes, or you can take a number of pieds from winning backgrounds, mate them together and eventually, by breeding birds which display the most white, produce an all white family. So it's not that good whites are so difficult to produce but that most fliers are not interested in cultivating or flying them.
> So for anyone interested in developing a family of whites which are able to fly competitively, it is a project that would be worthwhile and quite rewarding.



I've never said that good whites are difficult to produce -- we've been raising whites/grizzles for 5 years now, exactly in the manner you describe.

What is difficult if FINDING good whites to buy -- because so many people have jumped on the "everyone's looking to buy whites" bandwagon -- and a good percentage of the birds available right now are truly garbage -- inbred heavily, to make as quite a buck as possible.

You said it yourself..... most flyers are not interested in cultivating good whites.


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Inbreeding does not equal poor quality. Only if you inbreed and fix negative characteristics. Most newcomers to the sport find whites fascinating and they are quite beautiful in the loft and on the wing, but I think that the majority of experienced fliers don't bother with them. As a matter of fact you will probably find that most experienced fliers prefer a blue bar or check and many won't even tolerate a red in their loft. I personally don't agree with this as I feel any colour, type, size, eye etc. has the ability to do well, if it has been bred down from proven stock. You seem to suggest that there is a big demand for quality whites, which has created a supply deficit. I disagree with this. I feel that the demand that you are referring to is mainly from hobbyists who admire whites for their beauty and really are for the most part, not concerned with flying ability and I doubt very much that these mob breeders of inferior whites are getting rich quick or even slow for that matter.
You've been breeding whites for the past 5 years using the techniques I described? Well that's a credit to your breeding ability and determination. May I ask what family lines you developed your birds from and also how far of a radius from your loft do your releases take place?
How large a team of whites do you employ and within that 5 year period, how many seasons of breeding did it take you to produce what you considered a quality white for your purposes? 
Best of luck and continued success with your white release business.


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## Austringer (Mar 17, 2005)

*Progress is at hand....*

Grizzled,

Thank you for a great response. I will do what you said. I figured I was feeding them to much. I guess the behavior to get a response is not much different from my falconry bird, where much of it is in weight management. Today was a great day, I had seven flying for about 40 minutes. Its getting better every day, I guess I'm just a little impatient...LOL

Thanks gain!

Austringer


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Austringer said:


> Grizzled,
> 
> Thank you for a great response. I will do what you said. I figured I was feeding them to much. I guess the behavior to get a response is not much different from my falconry bird, where much of it is in weight management. Today was a great day, I had seven flying for about 40 minutes. Its getting better every day, I guess I'm just a little impatient...LOL
> 
> ...


You're doing great AUSSI! Nobody will know your birds as well as you will. Good luck.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Grizzled said:


> Inbreeding does not equal poor quality. Only if you inbreed and fix negative characteristics. Most newcomers to the sport find whites fascinating and they are quite beautiful in the loft and on the wing, but I think that the majority of experienced fliers don't bother with them. As a matter of fact you will probably find that most experienced fliers prefer a blue bar or check and many won't even tolerate a red in their loft. I personally don't agree with this as I feel any colour, type, size, eye etc. has the ability to do well, if it has been bred down from proven stock. You seem to suggest that there is a big demand for quality whites, which has created a supply deficit. I disagree with this. I feel that the demand that you are referring to is mainly from hobbyists who admire whites for their beauty and really are for the most part, not concerned with flying ability and I doubt very much that these mob breeders of inferior whites are getting rich quick or even slow for that matter.



Inbreeding can be good -- as long as you monitor it. What I've seen with the "white business" is that because there are so many who decide that a release business would be a great way to make quick cash (haha), there is a strong demand for whites right now. As you've already said, MOST breeders don't take the time to breed properly. If it produces a pure white bird.. that's good enough for them.

Someone who's trying to make a buck from selling "pure" whites does not want anything grizzled in their loft. They don't want breeders that will throw a bird with the odd coloured feather. So they breed strictly for colour -- and the homing instinct/health/smarts are bred out of the birds quickly. Which is why I am so adamant about finding a GOOD breeder when someone is looking for whites. 

I could give you a list of about 10 "barnyard" breeders -- who have literally a barn full of whites, none of them banded... and just keep churning out whites for those unsuspecting folks who are willing to pay for them. It's not "hobbists" that I've had experience with -- it is people looking to get into the release business, and they're getting burned, bad, a lot of the time.

There isn't a deficit of good whites, per se... it's just that the number of "feather merchant" whites far outweigh the good breeders. Why pay $50 for a white youngster, when you can get five of them from someone else for the same price? Except that if you buy 2 at $50 each, or 10 at $10, at the end of the year, you're probably going to have 1 or 2 of the $50 ones... and a good chance you'll not have any of the other ones.

Believe me... been there, done that! And heard of many many others who've had the same poor experience. 



Grizzled said:


> You've been breeding whites for the past 5 years using the techniques I described? Well that's a credit to your breeding ability and determination. May I ask what family lines you developed your birds from and also how far of a radius from your loft do your releases take place?
> How large a team of whites do you employ and within that 5 year period, how many seasons of breeding did it take you to produce what you considered a quality white for your purposes?
> Best of luck and continued success with your white release business.


We started out with some whites that we were told were "Mordvedt". Spent a lot of money on breeders and some youngsters. Found out afterwards that the guy selling them had been mis-representing his birds -- and that he had never, ever, bought birds from Roger Mordvedt himself (I got this info right from Roger). Roger had heard about this guy .. and assured me that if any of the birds in his loft were related to Roger's birds in anyway.. they were 4 or 5 generations removed. We picked up 10 breeders from another source as well... no know type, just "white" -- since that's what we wanted, right? LOL  

Those birds and breeding were a dismal failure, until we started outcrossing them with other birds of good calibre. Anything we raised directly from the so called "mordvedt" breeding pairs were lost less than 20 miles from the loft. The 10 breeding pairs raised us some ok birds.. but nothing that we'd ever consider "race" quality. They're great for 30-50 miles (which is about as far as I want to do releases.... we live in a hilly, lake filled area... it takes almost an hour to drive anywhere to get 40 "flight" miles away).

Along the way, we picked up some whites grizzles from Oak Haven Farms stock, from a Canadian breeder. Really, really liked them.. so bought some directly from Peemans in Texas the last couple of years. We've also picked up some Bandit (Hapyco) birds from various places, and also have some Janssen stock from over the years. 

Since we race as well, if we get grizzled or pied birds, that's great.. we put them on the race team. By careful selection of pairs, we can produce "whites" from coloured birds. Any "pure white" (in colour anyway.. since in reality, they are grizzled) go on the release team.

So.... in answer to your question.... In 5 years, we've taken 4 years to develp a breeding method that produces what we want. The first two years were "learning" years... and we've only one white left from that first year... she's in the breeding loft. We might have one or two left from the 2nd year (I'd have to check the records to be sure). 

We've 40 birds on the "flight" team now. Probably 20 breeders on top of that which are pure white -- and another 10 or so who can/do produce pure white babies, even though they are not pure white themselves. (We don't raise babies from the "team".... they are working birds, and we want them as healthy and ready for work as they can be, without having the stress and strain of raising babies).

We've done releases 50-60 miles.. but I prefer 40-50 miles, just for my own convenience, as driving time is a big factor. Leaving the house 2 hours before an event, to be sure to be there on time (taking into account set up time, traffic, etc), and then the actual release time, take down, and drive back home means that a 50-60 mile away "job" can take 6-7 hours... it's just not worth it, to me.

We've raced some of our whites out to 160 miles as YB's. Those birds went into the breeding program, so we didn't send them out as OB's. They didn't do fabulously (11th place was the best), but they made it home from some really tough races where supposedly "better bred" blue bars and checks were never seen from again, so we feel we are reaching our goal of "good" quality whites.

We aren't selling any of our whites this year.. but we have in the past, and have had people come back, asking for more, since they liked what they got the first time. We are working to develop a quality bird... and don't sell culls, just to make a buck. Hubby and I go over all the breeding pairs -- what they've raised the year before -- both colour and race results of youngsters.. and base the current year's pairs on that. We breed most of our birds in "lock boxes" - to guarantee parentage. 

It's a lot of work, but it's fun, and we really enjoy seeming some of the colour combinations we end up with ...some can be quite a surprise!


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

Thanks for your reply WHITEWINGS. It sounds like you have done quite a thorough job with your project and I can fully appreciate your views re: whites & the white release business in general. It's unfortunate that your location(seasons)limits your business opportunities(I would assume that someone located in the southern USA, adjacent to an urban centre would be busier than our Canadian counterparts). I can see how a newcomer to pigeons may find themselves in over their heads if they do not have the experience of breeding, flying and general maintenance. Thanks again for the overview and good luck with the upcoming season.


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