# new symptoms now



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

So I guess when it rains it pours.
One of the new birds I have in quarantine suddenly looks kind of bad.

Lethargic and losing weight, greenish slimy droppings sticking to vent. Droppings have a faint unpleasant odor and are difficult to dislodge from the bird. (pardon my graphic description, but the last 1/8" seems to get stuck inside and I have been pulling them out with a moistened cloth to keep the poor thing from getting plugged up) Also noticed it vomiting a clear fluid from mouth & nostrils, and sometimes breathing hard with open mouth.

Could this also be canker? Any other thoughts? It seemed to come on so suddenly but could be that I was so focused on the other sick ones I just didn't notice.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It could be a few things. What medications do you have on hand? Without some lab to help, I'd tend to treat for a very wide spread of things with Baytril, Metronidazole and something for Coccidiosis. If the birds regurtitating stuff, though, it might really need something injectible.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Karen,

I'm so sorry to hear this, once their immune systems are down they can get a host of trouble. What drugs have you got this bird on and how much longer?

I could guess and say it could be E-coli or Paratyphoid or another respiratory ailment/infection...but that is a guess-and there is no time to waste. Can you get the bird to an avian vet for diagnosis?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Poop sticking to vent feathers usually means there's a discharge of mucus, by the way. That can come from various points of origin like the oviduct or the GI so it's kinda' hard to tell. Is there any chance it could be a hen who should be laying (not necessarily now--I'm just asking if it's a hen of laying age)?

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

On hand, I have some Metronidazole, and also the Global's 3-in 1 for canker, worms, coccidiosis. (don't have ingredients list on hand but there's another post from me somewhere that has them...)

I'm not supposed to be on this board from work so got to be quick right now. Will check back soon...

Pidgey it could be a hen I don't know. Mucous is visible for sure.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did you bring the bird to work with you? Is it going to be sometime late tonight when you get back to it (my schedule's as bad as yours)? Have you treated this bird lately with any of that stuff? Gotta' find out what's in the 3-in-1.

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Can't bring birds to work 
It'll be evening before I get back. I did give him/her a 1/8 of a flagyl 250mg pill, more or less out of desparation.

Here's what the 3 in 1 has:
Amprolium
Ronidazole
Oxybendazole

I gave it to all 4 new birds for the recommended period when I first got them. (5 days, followed by probiotics/ACV then clear water)

Not giving it now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it's already had a course of that then we're probably looking at something else besides what that spread covers. I sure wish you had some other antibiotics like Baytril. Is a vet out of the question? If so, is it more a matter of that there are none available that you trust or just that you don't have the time to take the bird to one due to your schedule? I seem to remember you lamenting something about vets once.

If the bird's not keeping anything down then oral drugs might not process which is why I suggested the injectible for which you'd need a vet. I guess we'll know more when you get home tonight and see how the bird's condition has changed. Moxie's got Baytril and Trimethoprim/Sulfa, so keep that in mind. 

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> If it's already had a course of that then we're probably looking at something else besides what that spread covers. I sure wish you had some other antibiotics like Baytril. Is a vet out of the question? If so, is it more a matter of that there are none available that you trust or just that you don't have the time to take the bird to one due to your schedule? I seem to remember you lamenting something about vets once.
> 
> If the bird's not keeping anything down then oral drugs might not process which is why I suggested the injectible for which you'd need a vet. I guess we'll know more when you get home tonight and see how the bird's condition has changed. Moxie's got Baytril and Trimethoprim/Sulfa, so keep that in mind.
> 
> Pidgey


A vet is not out of the ? but would be difficult.
The only avian vet I could find near me is not familiar with pigeons/doves. She also seemed incompetent to me. No real answers and charged lots of $ for "maybe this will help" meds...when I brought in my doves once. I don't feel she would be much good for this and don't know how to find someone better. 

Also I now have a new job with killer commute and probably can't take time off to bring in a bird. Just bad timing, life-circumstance wise, to have this happen.

Anyone know of a good vet North of Boston? Or in Boston? I asked a few folks I met via Norhteastern Avicultural Society but no good leads.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oxfendazole will treat for roundworms in lungs/gastrointestinal tract and also 
treats for tape worm. You could have a resurgent population in addition to the
other posibilities. Do you have any stand alone wormers?

A thought on vets might be to call Tufts and ask if they could give you a referral for someone in your area. The weekend is a long way off and this
may not work for you right now if the referral had Saturday hours, but it's
worth having the information on hand, if obtainable.

Baytril/Metronidazole covers a wide range of pathogens, your previous treatment should have treated for:

Amprolium--coccidiosis
Ronidazole--Trichomonas
Oxybendazole--round & tape worms

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> Oxfendazole will treat for roundworms in lungs/gastrointestinal tract and also
> treats for tape worm. You could have a resurgent population in addition to the
> other posibilities. Do you have any stand alone wormers?
> 
> ...


I don't have any standalone wormers. I can call Tufts & see about a referral though. Thanks for the idea.

Note: the 3-in-1 did not clear up the canker in the other bird who had visible signs


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

amoonswirl said:


> I don't have any standalone wormers. I can call Tufts & see about a referral though. Thanks for the idea.
> 
> Note: the 3-in-1 did not clear up the canker in the other bird who had visible signs


Interesting, what was the dosage on the Ronidazole? You'd have to wonder
if it's canker or something resembling canker. Spartrix is a really good medication for canker to have on hand, it's very effective. It will run you 
about $20 I think. If times are tight, you might be able to borrow Metronidazole
from Moxie and dose at the rate of 50mg's per kilogram twice per day. Are her
pills the 250mg pills?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

amoonswirl said:


> Note: the 3-in-1 did not clear up the canker in the other bird who had visible signs


Maybe it's not canker. Second Chance had what looked like canker but it didn't resolve with high-dose anti-canker meds, either. Swabs didn't do any good. It seemed to be, when all was said and done, ulceration due to the bad case of PMV. I'm not saying that's what your bird has but there are other things that can cause a canker-like presentation.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly did it look like in color and texture? Second Chance's lesion looked rougher and less yellow than a typical canker smoothness and color (to my way of thinking).

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Size, color and location would be helpful. Could just be stubborn or as I mentioned earlier, not canker at all. Still interested in the dose amount of 
the Ronidazole in the three in one. Ronidazole is a good canker medication,
and in fact thought to be superior to Metronidazole by many.

I'm thinking you must be pretty glad the new birds are still in quarantine. What
a headache for you.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Maybe it's not canker. Second Chance had what looked like canker but it didn't resolve with high-dose anti-canker meds, either. Swabs didn't do any good. It seemed to be, when all was said and done, ulceration due to the bad case of PMV. I'm not saying that's what your bird has but there are other things that can cause a canker-like presentation.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what exactly did it look like in color and texture? Second Chance's lesion looked rougher and less yellow than a typical canker smoothness and color (to my way of thinking).
> 
> Pidgey


The bird with visible lesions had yellow, soft cheesy lumps in its mouth. They did not respond to the 3-in-1 but the course of flagyl I got from Moxie did the trick. I only administered the flagyl to that bird (Ash) and the one with the gurgling respiration (Sneazle). Not the other 2.

Pidgey - just got a call from Moxie & we'll be meeting up before I leave work about meds. I hope it isn't too late


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let's hope! Since you've got Metronidazole, you'd probably want some Baytril and Divet tablets. I'd probably go with the Baytril and Metronidazole first and run that a few days unless something shows up that would suggest the Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Divet) tablets.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

How many miligrams in the Metronidazole pills?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> How many miligrams in the Metronidazole pills?
> 
> fp


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=231227&postcount=7


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

What is the weight on this bird? Even using 50-60mg's per kilogram, that seems
a bit high for a dose.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> What is the weight on this bird? Even using 50-60mg's per kilogram, that seems
> a bit high for a dose.
> 
> fp


I don't know the bird's weight. All I can tell you is that it is not a large bird - not too much bigger than a ringneck dove. I can try to pick up a scale on my way home tonite and measure. Hadn't got the chance yet.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is it a particular breed?

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Is it a particular breed?
> 
> Pidgey


A Capuchine. But this Cap is a bit smaller than the other Cap.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't know what the weight of the average ringneck dove would be. But using
the 50 mg per kilogram dose level, 12.5mg's for a bird 250 grams would be more
betta. Do you have a syringe and can you crop medicate? This would be a better route for you w/the Metronidazole. If you gave an eigth of a 250mg
pill, that would be around 31 mg's which you can see would be quite alot
more for a light bird as the one you are describing.

If you have several birds which I believe you do, a scale is very important. Even if not a digital scale, you can pick up one w/two sets of values--ounces and grams for around $10-15 @ places like Longs Drugs or Walgreen's....whatever your options are for drugstore type places locally.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> I don't know what the weight of the average ringneck dove would be. But using
> the 50 mg per kilogram dose level, 12.5mg's for a bird 250 grams would be more
> betta. Do you have a syringe and can you crop medicate? This would be a better route for you w/the Metronidazole. If you gave an eigth of a 250mg
> pill, that would be around 31 mg's which you can see would be quite alot
> ...


I can crop medicate using a plastic eyedropper. Been using that some time now with both doves and pigeons. And am just waiting for a syringe/tubing shipment to come any day now. Administering the meds should not be a problem. Walgreens is on my way home for the scale. I just don't have any meds besides the flagyl and 3-in-1.

Don't know how you regular rehabbers can handle this stuff all the time. Too much drama for me.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The published dosage ranges on Metronidazole truly run the gamut anymore. In CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE, it even gives one for 200-250 mg/kg, PO, QD which, assuming a weight of 250 grams for this bird, would mean that you'd give it twice what you already have in a 24 hour period for a high-end dose.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The doses in Clinical Avian Medicine for pigeons fall into two categories:

Published without Reference

and....

Anecdotal

If you allow for a one time dosing difference per day as opposed to a twice
a day dosing schedule, it's still high. There is merit, though in dosing twice
per day to keep in the blood stream for the antibacterial activity that the
medication has the ability to afford. For canker, there is the additional 
element of infection from damaged tissue. The one time dosing seems to
address the issue of protozoal numbers w/out the antibiotic benefits.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> The doses in Clinical Avian Medicine for pigeons fall into two categories:
> 
> Published without Reference
> 
> ...


I can dose 2x per day if that's needed. Once in the early AM and once in the evening when I get home.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Do you have a syringe and are you comfortable w/crop medicating? You
could get a lot closer to accurate dosing if you do. If you don't maybe Moxie
has one on hand?

If you mix one 250mg pill w/10cc's of water, you would draw up and
crop medicate as per this schedule originally provided in the forums by TAW:

100 grams - 0.2 cc
150 grams - 0.3 cc
200 grams - 0.4 cc
250 grams - 0.5 cc
300 grams - 0.6 cc
350 grams - 0.7 cc
400 grams - 0.8 cc
450 grams - 0.9 cc
500 grams - 1.0 cc

Refridgerate the solution and pull out half an hour to an hour before 
using.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> Do you have a syringe and are you comfortable w/crop medicating? You
> could get a lot closer to accurate dosing if you do. If you don't maybe Moxie
> has one on hand?
> 
> ...


I may have a very small syringe from when I had to dose my ringneck doves. I will look for it, but may have thrown it out. Meanwhile, there's one in the post for me as well. The eyedropper may also have enough markings on it to do for now.

Moxie is on her way to meet me soon...Thanks everyone for all of your help!! I will keep you posted.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh, its not Karens fault about the 1/8th flagyl deal. That was my doing, I was told by many people on here many times to dose at that strength. So, my fault for telling Karen what I was told. That dose has never given me a problem, of course smaller, younger, bigger get a bit different. I always ask, unless I already know from on here.
also, The new bird I just gave Karen had canker, and half the bottom beak is totally gone. Can still eat on own, just needs more of a dove seed mix (small seeds) and a deep dish to drink and eat out.
Karen, i'm posting this for you too, since I forgot to mention this to you, but i'm sure you already know a bird like that needs deep dishes, but want to cover my bases just in case. That bird, the tounge sticks out the side a bit, and it hasnt dried out, my thinking, which could be wrong, but I have heard this on here before, maybe thoughts from someone can confirm or deny this. The toungue, instead of one day having to surgically shorten it, only the tip sticks out, so only the tip would need to be cut, so instead, just let the tip dry out and fall off, that is a BIG maybe, because for now the toungue is fine. His top beak needs trimming on occasion. Karen, if anything needs to be done about it someday, I will help you out somehow, take it to a vet, something, we'll cross that bridge when it comes.
About this sick bird, i wish I had my drivers license, i would borrow your car and take it to the vet for you, but no good vet to speak of, and no license, and both our schedules are LOCO!!
I really hope this guy makes it, I am so sorry all this is happening to you with your new arrivals. Does this one have a name yet?
Karen has a 1cc syringe, and the meds Pidgey recommended. So lets all send some "healing thoughts," as Mr. Squeaks would say!
I wonder what this could be? Maybe we could get a fecal done for her?
Let's just hope he's still holding up.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I wouldn't apologize for that Metronidazole dosing strategy, it's within a formulary and it's been done before many, many times.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Yes, never given me a problem, most people on here dose at that. I guess there's always a different way, which confuses the heck outta someone not in the know. Poor Karens head was spinning with all the different opinions! I just wanted to say dont blame her, blame me instead, she doesnt know, and is trying to learn. Heck, I dont know either, I just take the majority opinion on here most of the time to be safe, or at least when I was first on here thats what I HAD to do!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, it's not your fault, I wouldn't worry about what is gone by. 

The lower rate of 30mg's per kilogram is more of a general avian dosage. The formulary that is compiled and edited by Johnson-Delaney, DVM and pigeon specific recommends 50mg's per kilogram twice daily. 

The dosing here was a bit high for the size of the bird, but also important, is using it for both anti-protozoal and anti-bacterial properties. It is good to keep
in mind that it does have some negative side effects like reversible bone marrow
depression and neuro-toxicity in canines and potentially in pigeons. 

I'm not sure what the majority opinion is here regarding the dosing of Flagyl, I do know that you'll only be taking advantage of it's anti-protozoal activity and
not the anti-bacterial activity which is much needed in the case of canker
where tissue damage has taken place.

I try and save higher dose rate for when absolutely needed as in a difficult case, so that the
birds/Trichomonads don't get resistant to the higher rate.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

I just spoke to Karen, and the bird is still alive, dont know much more, just thought i'd update everyone. Also, the bird weighs 300g.
I'm sure she'll be on here soon to let us all know what is happening.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm glad the bird is still hanging in there and hoping that nothing has been passed to any of the other birds. If something else is needed, I can try and help. 

At 300 grams, the dose would be 15 mg's twice a day, so in terms of the one time dose at 31.25 mg's per kg, it isn't that bad, but you still don't get the advantage of the antibacterial activity when used as a stand alone medication. 

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*update*

Sorry for not updating sooner - just got in from picking my sister up @ the train station...

Anyhow- The bird was in better condition this evening than I expected. She even fought the meds administration a little so that's a good sign. 

Hopefully she'll pull through ok. But for now I'm doing the best I can and I truly, truly, truly appreciate all of the help and advice from the kind folks here at PT! You've all gone above and beyond.

Moxie - thanks also for the reminder about the "squeaker" needing smaller seeds and a deep dish. I have both. He's a real pip - not too happy with me right now, lol. But we'll get things squared away by & by.

More updates after I've had some sleep.
~K


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

*update: vomiting an issue?*

This morning little "Red" Capuchine took her baytril and flagyl just fine.
However, this evening she vomited some of it back up a few minutes after I gave it to her. Not all of it, but maybe about 1/4 of the fluid volume I'd put down her crop.

Is there anything I can/should do to help her keep the meds down?
Also - since she's gotten so skinny should I start crop feeding her with Exact or the like?

She does not seem any better, but she does not seem any worse either.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, keep her under a heat lamp if possible (so that she can get out from under it if necessary) and, yes, you can start feeding her KayTee. You probably can't give her much at a time if she's regurgitating, though. Do you think it was the stress of having it put down her?

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, keep her under a heat lamp if possible (so that she can get out from under it if necessary) and, yes, you can start feeding her KayTee. You probably can't give her much at a time if she's regurgitating, though. Do you think it was the stress of having it put down her?
> 
> Pidgey


I can put a heat pad in the crate.
I was pretty gentle with the syringe but may have caused her some stress. Not sure. 

How long do I need to wait between KayTee/meds? Will the feed solution affect absorption rate of meds in other words?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you're stuck with your schedule. Try to separate the drugs and meds as much as possible but that's going to be tough for you.

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, you're stuck with your schedule. Try to separate the drugs and meds as much as possible but that's going to be tough for you.
> 
> Pidgey


Yeesh, I was afraid you'd say that.
In the evenings I have some flexibility if I feed her just before bed.
Keeping fingers crossed...thanks again!
~K


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Canker, worms and bacterial infection are the most common cause, I wouldn't rule out following up w/another worming. The feedings should be in smaller
amounts if you can, spaced away from the meds if at all possible. Is this the
one that weighs 300 grams?

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> Canker, worms and bacterial infection are the most common cause, I wouldn't rule out following up w/another worming. The feedings should be in smaller
> amounts if you can, spaced away from the meds if at all possible. Is this the
> one that weighs 300 grams?
> 
> fp


This is the 300 gram bird, yes. Trouble with the timing is that I leave the house around 6AM and generally don't get home until late evening. So I can space evening meds/feedings a couple of hours apart, but not the AM ones.

A worming followup sounds reasonable, once she has showed some improvement. Happy to report that she had some closer-to-normal droppings this evening in that they did not stick in the vent and were not quite so green.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I once had a friend tell me that you truly know you're getting old when you start telling your friends things like, "I really had a good bowel movement, today!"

Especially with genuine animation.

And you know your friends are really old when they hang their heads in envy when you do.

It's a little different with us and poops, though, but just as wonderful.

Pidgey


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> I once had a friend tell me that you truly know you're getting old when you start telling your friends things like, "I really had a good bowel movement, today!"
> 
> Especially with genuine animation.
> 
> ...


LOL!
Well, I'm not quite there yet myself. But probably not too far off.

Anyway - little red capuchine seemed an increment better this morning. I don't have KayTee yet, but I've been soaking ZuPreem pellets in warm water and making sure she swallows a little bit. No vomiting this morning (at least not while i was watching). And I've cut the flagyl dose into smaller pieces 2x as well. Maybe that has helped too. No sticky droppings this morning.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

amoonswirl said:


> LOL!
> Well, I'm not quite there yet myself. But probably not too far off.
> 
> Anyway - little red capuchine seemed an increment better this morning. I don't have KayTee yet, but I've been soaking ZuPreem pellets in warm water and making sure she swallows a little bit. No vomiting this morning (at least not while i was watching). And I've cut the flagyl dose into smaller pieces 2x as well. Maybe that has helped too. No sticky droppings this morning.




That sounds good. I hope he is on his way to recovery.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, that does sound good. Flagyl can and does make them nautious so
smaller, 2x's is good especially when vomiting. Sounds like wetting/soaking
the Zupreem may also be helping w/hydrating, glad to hear sticky is gone
and no vomiting is in.

fp


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> Well, that does sound good. Flagyl can and does make them nautious so
> smaller, 2x's is good especially when vomiting. Sounds like wetting/soaking
> the Zupreem may also be helping w/hydrating, glad to hear sticky is gone
> and no vomiting is in.
> ...


Keeping my fingers crossed!!
But she did look a bit less distressed today. Hopefully the trend will continue.
And I'm going to try getting home earlier until they're all out of the woods. The stress of worry while I'm stuck away from these poor little things...not doing me any good either


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

amoonswirl said:


> This is the 300 gram bird, yes. Trouble with the timing is that I leave the house around 6AM and generally don't get home until late evening. So I can space evening meds/feedings a couple of hours apart, but not the AM ones.
> 
> A worming followup sounds reasonable, once she has showed some improvement. Happy to report that she had some closer-to-normal droppings this evening in that they did not stick in the vent and were not quite so green.


I wouldn't stress her out with worming until she has completely recovered from these issues. She doesn't need the added stress. By the way, I have noticed my new red Capuchine is very easily easily stressed, wonder if it is the breed. 

I would start giving her a garlic cap a day, once she isn't throwing up. It will help repair the immune system, clean the blood and get rid of parasites. You can always do the worming with medication at a later time.

I have given Bianca a garlic cap a day (and more) to tweak her since I got her and she is doing very well. I also gave her a probiotic cap since she seems so stressed, nothing like it. Her poops look great.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> By the way, I have noticed my new red Capuchine is very easily easily stressed, wonder if it is the breed.


Maybe they are more easily stressed than what I'm used to. Fantails and ringneck doves are sooooo easygoing. Also the little monks I got seem pretty mellow. Even the monk with the respiratory issues is very chipper. Both monks took to wing-slapping me & "telling me off" pretty fast. While the caps are still a bit afraid.

On the other hand, the person I got these birds from has a lot of Capuchines and said that they tend to have easygoing, rather friendly & nurturing dispositions. (I asked about that because I don't like animals that are overbred and high-strung...) So maybe it is just that these birds are young. I am in love with them regardless...such pretty little things!



Trees Gray said:


> I would start giving her a garlic cap a day, once she isn't throwing up. It will help repair the immune system, clean the blood and get rid of parasites. You can always do the worming with medication at a later time.


Got to get a big supply of garlic and probiotic caps. I have been administering garlic and ACV through drinking and bathwater to my original flock. And plain yogurt once in awhile via eyedropper for probiotics after any medication or stress. The capsules would be more consistent though. 

Do you just pop the caps in the back of the throat to administer? Any lubrication, etc?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Karen,

The caps are so much easier and less messy, and I have noticed quicker results. Soft Garlic gel caps can be found at most health food stores, as well as the probiotics.

I slick the cap down with a drop of olive, or Neem oil-I prefer (as it is beneficial too), makes it go down easier. Open beak and put behind tongue, push back gently as far as it will go, allow the bird to swallow and rub neck in downward motion (just under beak)


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Karen,
> 
> The caps are so much easier and less messy, and I have noticed quicker results. Soft Garlic gel caps can be found at most health food stores, as well as the probiotics.
> 
> I slick the cap down with a drop of olive, or Neem oil-I prefer (as it is beneficial too), makes it go down easier. Open beak and put behind tongue, push back gently as far as it will go, allow the bird to swallow and rub neck in downward motion (just under beak)


Thank you for that detailed description of how to administer these. I am still curious about the size/volume? are these tiny gelcaps? The ones i've seen I'd be afraid to push in my birds' throats, they seem BIG.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TheSnipes said:


> Thank you for that detailed description of how to administer these. I am still curious about the size/volume? are these tiny gelcaps? The ones i've seen I'd be afraid to push in my birds' throats, they seem BIG.


The garlic gel caps are smaller in size, but the others can be bigger. You can find the probiotics in smaller size, you just have to search a bit.

Here are the garlic gel caps:

http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdetail&item_id=3444

Here is one outstanding probiotic I have used on my birds (this is one I use), it is smaller then the one from Solaray-which is like the Goodyear Blimp in comparison:

http://www.healthline.cc/QNL Product Information/Lawyer Updated PDFs/Probiotic Complex.pdf


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