# What Kind of A Threat is This?



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

I live in the city, and we have many pigeons in my area, as I am near a large park. A pigeon has made a nest in the corner of my balcony (I live in an apartment) and has laid three eggs. The eggs have been there for over a week. The spot is secluded, and I have put out water and tried to provide shelter and a quiet place for the mama and babies-to-be.

Today there was a notice in our elevator saying that a pest control company will be placing pans of feed on our roof because residents have compained about all the pigeons. The feed "will not kill the pigeons, it will make them act funny so other pigeons do not want to be around them and so will leave the area". 

This just doesn't make sense to me. I am worried about my pigeon and her eggs. Does anyone know what this feed that makes pigeons "act funny" but "not kill them" is? I can't figure it out, because to follow that logic, we'll still have loads of pigeons, they'll just be "acting funny." Plus, the sign says that the pigeons should be gone soon. That doesn't sound like a no kill solution to me, and I want to save my pigeon! Help!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hello and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. You do need to tell us where you are so we can try to help with this pigeon poisoning.

Get pictures, get statements, get everything you can.

Terry


----------



## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

something is funny here, ask for the ingredients in the poison


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Be very concerned*

My advice -- make your area as safe and tempting as possible for mom and babes should the eggs hatch. Make sure you have a ready supply of fresh water and seed so she won't have to go searching. 

If the feed makes them act "funny" guaranteed it is not good for them or any other creature that encounters the poison. Find out what the bait is that they will be putting out -- get the ingredients. Whatever it is, do a search on the active ingredient and get them to spell it for you if it is a chemical compound. Organic compounds, in particular, are very specifically named based on the chemical structures. Brand names are probably a bit easier to look up. As an example of what you may encounter, look up Avitrol on the 'net. It ain't pretty. At a minimum, if a bird eats the bait, the avitrol will cause the birds to spasm (my word) and to make alarm calls. Supposedly the sounds and sights of the writhing birds will be enough to scare away their flock mates. Unfortunately, nothing that causes this kind of nerve disruption is good for any creature. Remember how insects react when they are sprayed -- same result, maybe a different chemicals and probably different biochemical pathways but the end result won't be much different. One big problem with poisons is that they are not as "discrete and target specific" as the manufacturers and the pest control companies would like one to think.

There are many people on this forum that can advise on how to treat poisoned birds and I'm sure they will post. I think there are also some "stickies" that on this site that you can read to help you along. 
Depending on where you live, you may be able to get some wildlife, fish and game, or other environmental agency or representative to help you stop the poisoning, especially if native birds will also be affected. Best of luck to you and the birds.


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

Thank you so much for your answers!

First, I am in Minneapolis, MN. And second, the bait they are using is Avitrol. As I understand it, it will be put in corn.

Shall I put seed or corn on my balcony so the pigeon has less of a chance of eating the tainted feed?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Avitrol is a poison and an extremely cruel form of pigeon control. The claim that it will just make pigeons feel funny actually means that they will be crashing into buildings and in front of cars. They have convulsions and die.

Putting down untainted corn could help, but you know what pigeons are like, if there is fresh food and pigeons eating it even a well fed pigeon will join them. It would be best to take the pigeon in while the poison is down and to arm yourself with whatever you need as an antidote to treat any poisoned pigeons that you find. Activated charcoal should stop the system from absorbing poison and valium should minimise convulsions. You should also try to empty the crop of poisoned corn.

There is a petition to stop the use of avitrol on the second page that you access when you visit this site under Pigeon News:

http://www.petitiononline.com/PGN001/petition.html. 

There was one poisoning campaign in the UK that was halted by animal activists in a van who would make a terrible racket to frighten the pigeons off every time poisoned grain was put down.

I have a book that details the effect and cost of reducing a flock size through poisoning (I think it was in Salford) which would be good material to use when fighting the decision for inhumane control if anyone needs it. I can post it in resources with a reference to the source.

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

docbjb said:


> Thank you so much for your answers!
> 
> First, I am in Minneapolis, MN. And second, the bait they are using is Avitrol. As I understand it, it will be put in corn.
> 
> Shall I put seed or corn on my balcony so the pigeon has less of a chance of eating the tainted feed?



I would not put corn out for them, just seed by itself. If they get familiar with the corn and recognize it as a source of food they will be more likely to eat the poisoned corn too.

Keep mom and babies inside if it is at all possible.

It's terrible that they entice our ferals with posison laced corn, and then to lie about it to the people, tells me they KNOW they are doing something very very wrong.

I have talked to a professional exterminator, and he told me the truth about it, as his company doesn't use it anymore. The birds actually suffer greatly from avitrol, they fly into windows and have a tormenting death. The pest control companies do their evil deeds by darkness and clean up all the bodies before the light of day, as this is required. They also end up poisoning other species of birds in the process which also get cleaned up.

They are lying to you and all the tenants and the truth should be told.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> They also end up poisoning other species of birds in the process which also get cleaned up.


In the UK a dramatic drop in sparrowhawks was attributed to the use of poisoned grain on pigeons. 

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I cringe every time I read something like this. In the past, I have seen videos of pigeons who have been poisoned by Avitrol and they literally drop from the sky, dying.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

docbjb said:


> Today there was a notice in our elevator saying that a pest control company will be placing pans of feed on our roof because residents have compained about all the pigeons.
> *The feed "will not kill the pigeons, it will make them act funny so other pigeons do not want to be around them and so will leave the area". *


Hello & Welcome.

Mark my word, the *'tainted'* feed *will *kill them & most likely any other animal or bird that comes in contact with them. It will be laced with *Avitrol*. The poison of choice for pest control companies.
And as flitsnowzoom described, "It ain't pretty."

Yes, please do let us know your general location. We will be more than happy to do whatever we can to help you out.
From my understanding, Avitrol has been banned in NY.

Cindy


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I wonder if the pest control companies ever think beyond poisoning the pigeons? Sure, they generally place the tainted seed in an area where humans are unlikely to go. But, have they ever thought of the consequences of what could happen if a poisoned bird were to 'fall off' the roof because of the uncontrollable spasms & a child were to pick up in hopes of '*helping*' it, however, unknowingly put him/herself in harms way.  

It's tragic enough losing the lives of innocent birds/animals to any type of poisoning (especially intentional) but the thought of a child becoming a victim is intolerable.  

Cindy


----------



## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

*I hate pigeon haters*

It makes me sick to my stomach that people do this to our friends.  I wish they could watch their poison work on a few birds and the terrible effects on them, maybe then they would wake-up and relize these birds dont deserve this. I am sorry but I absolutely hate pigeon haters and poison control Companies. I wish we could do to them  the same they do to our buddys just trying to stay alive in an already harsh world.


Cindy


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

This is appalling. Thanks to everyone for the information.

I've posted a notice in the building elevators with information about Avitrol and its effects. I've also pointed out we've been lied to. Unfortunately, building staff does not work on the weekends, so there is no one to act administratively on this.

I have spread seed on my balcony, on the balcony of the empty unit next door, and in pots around my balcony. I hope that this will help my pigeon and her eggs. I am concerned that her mate will be poisoned and not return. What will happen to her then?

Please send your thoughts to my poor mama-to-be and any information that might be useful to me as I continue to try and keep her safe!

A big thank you to everyone. It's wonderful to see there are good people who understand and want to protect the beauty of our pigeons!


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

docbjb said:


> *This is appalling.* Thanks to everyone for the information.
> 
> I've posted a notice in the building elevators with information about Avitrol and its effects. I've also pointed out we've been lied to. Unfortunately, building staff does not work on the weekends, so there is no one to act administratively on this.
> 
> ...


Indeed it is!

Here's a report (actual documented cases) on Avitrol from the U of VA ( School of Medicine 
Department of Internal Medicine). 
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/UWS/UVaAvitrol.html

Cindy


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It takes a few hours for them to die after they ingest the poison. They can have horrible convulsion before they die.
If the pigeon dad comes back, is there a possiblity to capture him and keep him inside?
The reason I would do this is because if he ingested the poison and he feeds the babies they will be also affected.
If the mate doesn't come back it is unlikely the mother will go too far from them, especially if you leave food out for her, so she and the babies would be safe for now.

Reti


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*What a way to celebrate Earth Day ??!!*

Hi Doc,
Keep up the good work. There are several threads with Avitrol posted in here. I've posted a couple of the thread links in here as well as a link over to the Avitrol Corp's FAQ sheet. 

You are in *EPA Region 5* and you might be able to get some info or help there, however, unless you can show that the potential for damage extends beyond the bird species that the Avitrol is specifically regulated for, you probably can't expect much help there. MN's wildlife division might be of some assistance as well. Most likely if this is a registered pest control company they have pulled the proper permits, but it won't hurt to check.

Make sure that your notices that you have posted about Avitrol aren't taken down. The more people know about the real effects that this chemical has on living organisms, the more likely you will be to find sympathy and maybe even allies. 
It is nothing less than a poison and as best as I can determine (through what is available in the public literature) it disrupts the nerve channels (it apparently blocks the potassium channel) which is why the animals go into spasms and convulsions and lose the ability to function as a coherent unit. 
If it doesn't kill them outright, the spasms weaken the animals so much that they can't escape (remove the funny-acting birds so the public doesn't see) or maintain life functions so quickly starve or dehydrate.

[Aside here -- maybe we should keep bananas on-hand for our pigeon friends if Avitrol disrupts the potassium ion flows in the body?? any thoughts anyone?]

It's a long struggle to educate people about chemicals and methods that are used against pests, because we don't really take the time to think about the short term effects or long term consequences about much of anything we do against our natural world.

anyway, the links . . . .

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20176&highlight=avitrol

_Chemical name_
*4-AMINOPYRIDINE Chloride (Avitrol)*

_Avitrol's FAQ sheet_
http://www.avitrol.com/GrainFAQ/inde...with Avitrol

An MSDS (Materials safety data sheet) on Avitrol. 
http://www.plunketts.net/avitrol-m.pdf

Here's an html version of a lengthy avitrol document published by NJ govt. A lot of it is standard boilerplate text with Avitrol substituted in for the chemical name, but some is unique to this chemical. Pyridines are not nice.  The pdf version is easier to read but on my dial-up takes forever!!!

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...0172.pdf+epa+avitrol&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

Best as I can determine, Avitrol is only put on corn and sorghum (milo), not wheat anymore, although there was a time when that was registered with the USEPA as well. I strongly recommend that you use the smaller grains as food for your pigeon friends so they recognize something besides milo and corn as food sources should they go up to the roof.

Sorry for the long post but I can be wordy  

PS. This forum is great -- wonderful people and I know should the worst happen and the birds start dying, there will be some internet assistance here for you and maybe a friendly face or two if anyone is in your area. I've learned a tremenous amount here. -- THANKS!! 

PPS. After reading the U of Va link in one of the previous posts, I know why Avitrol is registered out of Tulsa, OK., but probably not manufactured there any more.


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

Thank you so much for the Avitrol information! I am at work, but checked on the mama before I left and she still in on her nest and fine. However, I did see a number of pigeons on the street that appeared to have been hit by cars. I would suspect this is because they have been weakened or otherwise affected by the Avitrol.

Apparently the entire neighborhood I live in (which is on a park and surrounded by condominiums) has joined together in this effort to rid the area of its pigeons.  

Would it be safe for me to screen in her area of the porch? I have some flexible screening that I could use to cordon off around half of the balcony. Of course, this would prevent her mate from getting to her, but might save her and the babies. She does have seed and water.


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*I'm so sorry*

I would certainly try and keep the mom safe by screening in the porch. It would be temporary until the big threat passes. If her mate comes calling, maybe you can remove the screen until he's in. It's better to try and isolate at least a few of the pigeons from the harm. 

If you are seeing an increase in pigeons dying and laying in the streets around you, perhaps you could do a "newstip" sort of thing and have a radio or tv station come around to alert the public to a terrible happening in the bird community -- especially on Earth Day when we are supposed to be honoring our fellow Earthlings and promoting good stewardship of the ground, air, and water  . 
If you do call a station, make sure to say the the birds are in terrible convulsions and cannot even fly. If you say they are acting "funny", that word choice de-emphasises the terrible agonies the birds must be going through (why else would the pesticide people choose such a benigne (can't spell, sorry) word to describe these reactions).  You don't have to give out the information that you live in the area! 

Imagine being a driver going through the area and hitting birds! If they are like me, they will do everything they can to avoid hitting a bird and might even swerve into another vehicle to avoid the bird. Plus the emotions of accidentally killing an innocent creature can be overwhelming. If there are song birds, robins, or even raptors caught in this situation, it could help the pigeons. Terrible for all the birds, absolutely, but poisoning song birds would result in the bait being removed because it is against the law to kill or injure any of those birds. 

If you ask me, a raptor program is much more humane than this terrible poison campaign. Posions are non-selective and will find their way into so many different food chains regardless of how careful a pesticide program is implemented. 
The worst thing about this is that the current crop of pigeons will be killed (not relocate because their flock mates are acting "funny") and new ones will come in to take their place, and the whole terrible cycle starts again.

Keep up the good work and vigilance. Thanks.


----------



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

That is horrible. Maybe you could do some flyering about Avitrol in the neighborhood given it's a neighborhood-wide effort? Contact media or local animal rights groups? Are there any other Minneapolis members that could help?


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

She is still safe! And I think her mate is on the next balcony over eating the seed I put down. Most of our pigeons are gone...we usually have a large flock on the roof this time of the evening, and I can only see four plus my two.  

Thank you for all the help. I'll probably be needing more, but for tonight I think the little family is somewhat safe.

Here is the mother pigeon and one of her eggs!


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

She is so beautiful.  
I certainly hope the little family stays safe, dad comes over to help, and that they invite their friends to share during this difficult time. Bless you.
Wish we could be there in person to help you fight the good fight.


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

Quick update...I think the picture I posted yesterday is actually the father! This morning and starting around 7 pm tonight, there is another bird on the nest. 

This makes me happy, because it seems as if the Avitrol has not affected either parent. At least not yet, though the overall flock is greatly reduced  

Maybe my pigeons are confused or something? I read the mother is usually on the nest in the evening and morning, but last night the other, darker pigeon was on the nest. Then this morning it was this one! Also, there are three eggs...and I read pigeons usually just have two? Sorry, I'm a complete newbie so my questions might be kinda dumb...but I'm finding myself getting very attached to my two visitors. 

Here is the other pigeon. Male or female? I don't know, but s/he has pretty rusty brown edges on his/her wings and white wing tips. S/he sits far back in the corner with the tips of the wings and the tail propped on the wall. This one doesn't seem as comfortable around me as the other one. S/he made a growling noise and puffed up impressively when I changed the seed dish!


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

docbjb said:


> Maybe my pigeons are confused or something? I read the mother is usually on the nest in the evening and morning, but last night the other, darker pigeon was on the nest.
> Then this morning it was this one! *Also, there are three eggs*...and I read pigeons usually just have two? Sorry, I'm a complete newbie so my questions might be kinda dumb...but I'm finding myself getting very attached to my two visitors.


Appreciate the update. Your pijjies are beautiful. I'm so glad they are doing well.

Yes, it's true, pigeons usually do lay only two eggs. It's posible you have two 'females' sharing the nest. Keep an eye out for another egg. If you find 4 then it's pretty much a given you have two females.  

Cindy


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

*update*

Mom, dad, and eggs are still ok. I've figured out that the mother is actually the lighter one with the white wing tips and the white speckled head. At least, that is the pigeon who is on the nest morning and night...the other taking over during the daytime hours. 

The eggs should be hatching soon...it's been a little over two weeks.

They are eating wild bird seed, lentils, and organic oats and seem...knock wood...to have resisted the poison feed. I spoke with my condo manager today and he was unaware that Avitrol was a poison. The pest control people LIED or at least danced around the truth. I guess I am not surprised. 

I also contacted PETA via email. They actually had an action around Avitrol and pigeon poisoning in Arizona! They are going to send my condominium information about humane pigeon control and management as well as information about pest control companies and their dastardly deeds. 

A friend of mine sent me this today after learning of my pigeon activities!

Thanks to you all for your interest and kind words. I never knew I would fall in love with pigeons, but I think I'm hooked.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Good job. You've taken action that likely will have a positive impact on the situation. Sure beats waiting for the worst to happen.
Your situation haunts me and I've thought about it all day. The thought of the pigeons and other birds being poisioned makes me crazy, crazy, crazy. 
I hope PETA will become involved and send the information about the Avitrol.

I must have one of those tee-shirts. Where did your friend find it?


----------



## docbjb (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi Charis,

You can get them from Pigeon Gear on CafePress...they have quite a selection for pigeon lovers!

http://www.cafepress.com/pigeongear

Take care,
Bonney


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Many Thanks!

I Am Ordering! *


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thank you. I'm ordering too.


----------

