# how to breed white racers?



## Revolution Lofts

Hello!

I've been interested in racing pigeons for a while, particularly white racers. I might start raising them on the side, along with my high fliers. I was wondering how do you breed pure white racing pigeon? Can you breed a white racer to a white racer and get white babies? Or do you need to mix with another colour in order to get white? I know a breeder that has pure whites, pieds, and rare coloured homers. I was wondering if I should just buy pure whites from him or also his pieds and/or rare pigeons? 


These are some pictures he sent me:













and...


----------



## Crazy Pete

I wouldn't know how to breed them, but if you wanted to breed good birds that would take years. So if you have some body with really good birds in mind I would try to get birds from his very best.
Dave


----------



## Print Tippler

There are two different kinds of "white racers". One is called recessive white, it is a gene which makes the bird all white and give the bird a bull (black) eye. The other is ash red grizzle bred to be all white, which could or could not have bull eyes. They may have a specks of color on them. You could have either but probably the first. You would want to breed white to white really, or you can breed white to non white and if you dont get white then breed offsprings back to white parent to get white. Which i know you don't like to do. Theres always a chance when you pair a white with a non white that it carrys the gene.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

There are also the pied birds that are so heavily pied that they are all white, or look all white. I have a fantail I thought was recessive white, until it popped out a baby with a few non-white feathers.

You're better off just getting whites and piebalds from him. If you go the grizzle route, you'll need homozygous grizzles.


----------



## APF_LOFT

i have this recessive white racer if i pair it to a near white grizzle racer with cracked eye it have orange part and bull part. 

do i get recessive white bird from this mating?


----------



## rudolph.est

APF_LOFT said:


> i have this recessive white racer if i pair it to a near white grizzle racer with cracked eye it have orange part and bull part.
> 
> do i get recessive white bird from this mating?


You will only get recessive white from this mating if the grizzle is carrying recessive white. There is no way to know this for sure, other than mating the birds and seeing what you get.


----------



## APF_LOFT

the grizzle have a cracked eye it have part orange eye and part bull eye. does it mean he is carrying a recessive white?


----------



## Print Tippler

No, just that it's has some sort of piebald, around or connected to the eye is most common to bring it out. Could be a baldhead if it's the head is all white theres a chance.

When piebald gene is present it removes the pigments of whatever is there and makes it white, piebald can be present anywhere on the body. So with baldheads since white is on the head sometimes it moves to the eye and turns it bull. It can also make parts of the beak clear or toenails. Never seen a pied toe that is both pied an normal but beaks are common.


----------



## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> No, just that it's has some sort of piebald, around or connected to the eye is most common to bring it out. Could be a baldhead if it's the head is all white theres a chance.
> 
> When piebald gene is present it removes the pigments of whatever is there and makes it white, piebald can be present anywhere on the body. So with baldheads since white is on the head sometimes it moves to the eye and turns it bull. It can also make parts of the beak clear or toenails. Never seen a pied toe that is both pied an normal but beaks are common.


I've seen toenails that were 'cracked'. More than half white, with just one side dark, and the reverse, more than half dark with a white stripe on one side. I agree that it is rare though.

I personally don't like pied birds (especially ones that have random pied genes mixed with grizzle). Since I want to be able to predict exactly what my youngsters will look like, most of the pied genes just aggravate me. ;-) You never know when the white will just explode and almost cover the bird.


----------



## APF_LOFT

Print Tippler said:


> No, just that it's has some sort of piebald, around or connected to the eye is most common to bring it out. Could be a baldhead if it's the head is all white theres a chance.
> 
> When piebald gene is present it removes the pigments of whatever is there and makes it white, piebald can be present anywhere on the body. So with baldheads since white is on the head sometimes it moves to the eye and turns it bull. It can also make parts of the beak clear or toenails. Never seen a pied toe that is both pied an normal but beaks are common.


but why my baldhead, white wing and white tail have a pearl eye?
and they said most of baldhead have pearl eye.


----------



## rudolph.est

APF_LOFT said:


> but why my baldhead, white wing and white tail have a pearl eye?
> and they said most of baldhead have pearl eye.


Your baldhead has a pearl eye because the eye still contains pigment. Not all baldheads have to be bull eyed. Indeed in some breeds, baldhead birds never have bull eyes. It just depends on which parts do show pigment (colour) and which parts don't. Even if the whole head of a splash bird is white, it *can* still have coloured eyes (orange / pearl), but that doesn't mean it *will*.

Baldhead can cause either bull eye or coloured eye, or both or cracked. It depends...

Mookees are monk marked (baldhead selected to be a cap) and have bull eyes, while some roller breeds have white heads that go some way down the neck, but have coloured eyes. This is supposedly also caused by the baldhead gene.


----------



## APF_LOFT

ok. thanks again rudolph and print.


----------



## Print Tippler

rudolph.est said:


> I personally don't like pied birds (especially ones that have random pied genes mixed with grizzle). Since I want to be able to predict exactly what my youngsters will look like, most of the pied genes just aggravate me. ;-) You never know when the white will just explode and almost cover the bird.


I understand. I don't have any straight splashes non grizzles but would like some. All mine are print grizzle or I believe **** grizzle. I like splash though despite not fully knowing what I'm getting. 5 pairs of birds on eggs or just had squeakers which are RR with non RR. So I have only a small idea of what I could get right now haha. Though like I've said in the past I want a bunch of genes and a bunch of phenotypes. Splashes would sure help keep things diverse.

APF, hope things go well for your breeding. I really would like the baldhead white flights white tail in my loft. Had a real decent bird that would have been my foundation but it passed. Will be some sure work to create a good phenotype. I'd rather put in on a blue bar and not black though. But I would be trying throw in sooty and smokey probably at the same time. Maybe I'll get my hand on some pearl eyes whites and breed one of them out. That wouldn't be a bad start. I think going from more white to less is easier than less to more. The former you can just outbreed where the latter you might need to do more inbreeding.

The eyes don't have to be bulled like Rudolph said. It would stand to reason that show breeds would probably keep normal eyes while flying breeds would probably be bulled. Ofcourse I'd rather have non bulled birds. I don't know if anyone likes bull eyes.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

APF_LOFT said:


> i have this recessive white racer if i pair it to a near white grizzle racer with cracked eye it have orange part and bull part.
> 
> do i get recessive white bird from this mating?


If you breed this pair and then put the offspring together you will get 1-4 that are recessive white and 1-4 **** grizzles if the **** grizzle is on a red bird it should appear almost white. Like mentioned above you may get some rec whites in the process if the white grizzle is carrying the rec white gene, But probably not all that likely


----------



## APF_LOFT

i pair them today my white racer and grizzle racer hopefully i will get white if i dont inbreeding is the answer. or i will going for grizzle and ash red to get white with orange eye or pearl eye but inbreeding also is needed to get white and add dilute later to get whiter or get ash yellow. so many breeding problem hehe.

about bull eyed i don't like them because i can't see the true color of there eyes.


----------



## APF_LOFT

i use the PIGEON GENETICS CALCULATOR by Henk Meijers Holland and i get this

Female
G//+ 
Gender = Female, Ratio = 1/4 = 25%, minimum of animals to breed: 4
Blue Bar Grizzle

Female
+//zwh G//+ 
Gender = Female, Ratio = 1/4 = 25%, minimum of animals to breed: 4
Blue Bar Grizzle

Male
G//+ 
Gender = Male, Ratio = 1/4 = 25%, minimum of animals to breed: 4
Blue Bar Grizzle

Male
+//zwh G//+ 
Gender = Male, Ratio = 1/4 = 25%, minimum of animals to breed: 4
Blue Bar Grizzle

so inbreeding in brother and sister and mother to son is not advisable because if i got the non recessive son i will not got white also to bad hehe.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

I'm not sure if you put the right genetic info in, One thing for sure is if you put a **** grizzle with a **** rec white, providing nothing is hidden that we do not know about, All offspring will be het grizzle and het for rec white, Put the brother and sister back together and you will get 1/4 rec white and 1/4 **** grizzle. You will also get 1/4 non grizzle the rest het grizzles.

As for putting mother back to son and daughter to father, This could increase the level of **** grizzles and **** rec whites you get but that would involve splitting this pair up to put them to offspring.


----------



## re lee

When i had white race birds I used several grizzle hens over white cocks I produced about 50 percent young whites off this pairings. And there offspring back to whit produced 100 percent white using the white off spring. also if you search the web You will find a breeder that worked several years to get and raise orange eyed white race birds And his birds produce all white with orange eyes. Just as years ago several people bred orange eyed white scheitti modenas whera they breed all whites orange eyed . So a person can in time work there needs and wants into there birds. Just do not become color blind as quality rates first and color second so using quality into color then reseting color is a good way to go. As black with quality into whiote to improve quality you still get white IN A SHORT TIME>


----------



## APF_LOFT

yes i was wrong putting genetic info. sorry about that

this the right result

Female
+//zwh 
Gender = Female, Ratio = 1/2 = 50%, minimum of animals to breed: 2
Blue Bar
Continue with this Female | Select for later 
Male
+//zwh 
Gender = Male, Ratio = 1/2 = 50%, minimum of animals to breed: 2
Blue Bar
Continue with this Male | Select for later


----------



## vangimage

I'm no genetics guy but from the photos the guy has splashes and saddle marked birds. If you want pure white birds just buy pure white birds from pure white parents. If you get a pure white bird from let's say piedbald/saddle/splash parents you will get the pied bald marking young birds. If you go with the pure white which is the recessive white get two amd you will get whites. I believe pied bald/saddle as explained to me by some very experienced fanciers and the guy who basically started the saddleback homers. Stated that this is dominant white. All you need is one and you will get the color. It is true in the American show racers too which they got the pied from saddle homers, which I have bred a color bird to a pied and gotten young of standard color and pied. Hope this helps.


----------



## APF_LOFT

good if you have flowing resoures you can buy anything but others like me have only limited resources so we made white bird from scratch hehe


----------



## NZ Pigeon

I prefer doing it myself, Anyone can purchase good stock but it takes skill and patients to make something from scratch, Good on you, Keep us updated if you get some whites.


----------



## APF_LOFT

yes i will update you wen i get whites.


----------

