# White might this be?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Fledgling Pigeon, very beautiful, not raised by me, but by his parents...slated for re;ease any day now really...

Was looking somewhat sleepy, I was keeping an eye on him...Crop was empty, so I tube fed him, this was yesterday...started him on Cipro last night, felt worried...

Today, he just held his Wings low, body horizontal and as long as he could make himself, with Wings so low they were paralell to the ground...and had his neck fully extended parallel to the ground...eyes open, beak toughing the ground...

Cipro twice today...he is just melting lower and lower.


I saw this once before some years ago...nothing I did worked, and seems that way this time also...Crop was maybe 1/4 full of liquid today/tonight, I do not think he had been drinking, he had nopt moved all day...and I had not fed him today since his Crop appearently had not emptied since yesterday...I put some Nystatin into his Crop this evening.

Liquid ran out of his mouth when I was holding him, with the way his Head hung so low...


No aspiration, but clearly he is fading.


Any ideas what it might be? 


Anyone seen this sort of 'look' before?

No idea on poops, have him in a cage now, but otherwise he spent the day on the bed with several younger ones.


Might be able to get withmy Vet tomorrow morning, but I will ve very surprised if this one is still with us for me to do so with him.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry about this one, Phil. I don't have any words of wisdom or suggestions for you .. I've had some like you are describing, and they have not made it. I think the Nystatin was a good move but probably too little and too late .. even assuming that Nystatin addresses the real problem.

I do not envy you this one tonight .. I have one with different symptoms but probably one that won't be with us in the morning either.

Good luck with yours.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Doesn't look good for this little one.
I hope and pray he'll be with you in the morning. 
Good luck.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Kinda' sounds like some form of meningitis. I'd tend to try and keep him tilted upward (head up-ish) and in some cooler air, too, if possible. Hard to say which way it will go. Best of luck.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Terry, Pidgy,



I had propped up his neck and head with some soft cloths.


Anyway, he did not make it.


Could e-coli or salmonells do this?


I know there are endless other bacterial illnesses...but those two came to mind anyway.


Later...


I gotta try and get a little more shut eye for a while...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I was mistaken...


I thought he had died, but he was just being very still and in a position which resenbled having perished.


I got him straightened out, and repositioned with some soft cloths propping his neck and head.


More liquid coming out of his mouth when his head is lowered.


Should I just hold him upside worn and try and drain this?


I am just too over tired to think at all any more, this has been three months or more of almost no sleep past a few stolen hours of nap, and unrelenting exigencys on various fronts, and I am just totally worn out.


If this is some sort of Crop stasis, the Nystatin should help. Maybe this is something effecting his Crop and preventing it from draining-passing whatever food is still in there, and which is also intoxicating his system to make for these odd symptoms...


I will go try and drain this...just seems too aweful and dangerous for him to keep trying to move and ending up head in the corner bottom and so on...


Poor thing...


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, how's your bird doing today? Hope s/he is still hanging in there.
Cam's nest mate died in a posture like you've described and Cam had 
the same posture. Nystatin along in conjunction w/Metronidazole and 
other antibiotics to address underlying issues. I found I had to feed
much less w/more frequency as I didn't want the bird regurgitating and
aspirating especially because s/he was so sick and w/out the usual
reflexes a healthy bird would have. I'm sorry you are having a difficult
time w/emergencies right now.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks fp,




I wish I had some injectable meds to use. 

I have been meaning to send off for injectable Baytril but had not done so.


Probably, with his Crop the way it is, nothing given Orally is being assimilated.

He was standing yesterday anyway, but not so since last night.

I have injectable Pennicillin, maybe I should use it...


My Vet is not available till Monday...


Anyway, I set him up with some soft cloths for keeping his head and neck elevated, buy he keeps ending up head low and in odd postures where he stays totally still.


I am just up, so...maybe make some Coffee and see about the Pennicillin dose.


Thanks!

Phil
l v


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I think injectable meds would be best at this point. When you have crop stasis anything you give doesn't get processed.

Reti


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Reti said:


> I think injectable meds would be best at this point. When you have crop stasis anything you give doesn't get processed.
> 
> Reti


Reti, I totally agree with you. With crop stasis I always switch to injectable antibiotics.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,



He perished...he was still alive early this morning, I was just too tired to stay up, so I went back to sleep after checking a few things.

Got up, spent a half hour gently tilting the small Bottle of Pennicillin back and forth to re-dissolve it from it's long settleing...

Anyway, once I was up again and trying to make myself get on to some things, when I checked him, he was definitely gone.


Sadly as well, I see another one is showing the same symptoms, if of an earlier phase of them.


I do not have any idea what this is, to be able to elect what to do for it.


No way to see my Vet till Monday, maybe, or Tuesday...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Phil, 

While the prognosis seems poor, where there is life, there is hope! Oops, I must have read your post incorrectly! I thought he was still alive. I'm so sorry he didn't make it!!

I am also worried about you! Not getting enough sleep can be dangerous over time. Do take care of yourself so you can take care of all your charges!

Without you, the sick ones won't stand a chance.

Sending love, hugs and healing thoughts...

Shi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, if you are seeing similar symptoms in another bird, maybe you should
refridgerate the poor bird who passed and have them necropsy it. I'm very sorry to hear this one slipped off on you, Phil. Yes, injectable would be great
to have on hand, though the 10% liquid seems to get absorbed easily w/crop
stasis. Don't know what to say on that one, but injectable does get delivered w/certainty, efficiency and speed.

Sorry to hear about your rescue, Phil, hope you get some rest.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry, Phil, this little one didn't make it.
Maybe you can start the other one which is showing symptoms on injectale antibiotics.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Things are truely going bad here...


Just found another, laying on his back, too weak to stand, was getting pecked by others...this had been a vital healthy Bird certainly only a couple days ago...a pre-release adult...a very sweet and lovely one, white primarys...


I wanted to absolutely cease accepting any more Birds many months ago, and I was not resolute about it, and now things are realy turning to more than I can handle and getting very "bad"...


I am two months behind on shipping any Orders of what for me IS my livlihood, with the products I make in my shop, and I have been 18 hours a day every day day in day out JUST barely keeping up with Bird-things and a few other basics NOT including cleaning and this is untenable and now getting into a really ugly phase of totally predictable consequences.


I have barely gotten four hours sleep any night for four or five months, and I feel so exausted I can not think, or remember or plan or do anything hardly.

I go to warm formula, while it warms, I start washing off the overnight bleach soaking Seed and Water Bowls, then the formula gets ruined as the water boils and the formula cooks and dries out...so, make new formula...forget to pay power bill, they shut the power off...so drive down there and pay them, wait...that takes three hours, endless me screw ups becaue I am too wasted to even think or deal or plan or organize with anything but very narrow abstractions and even those...


Now this whatever it is effecting these Birds, where probably for all the ones here it will be bad, even the ones still healthy, I have no where to put them to get them out of here. Feral Cats ruined ny possibly of that with their being in the Shop constantly whether the Door is open or closed.

Many of the Pigeons here are standing around with droopy eyes, it is too 'quiet'...all the vigor and sounds and cooings are gone...probably most of them are on this decline, and by "Monday" who knws how many will be dead or dieing in odd corners and areas I can not even get to to know.




And I can not exactly release ones who may be a day away from showing symptoms.


This is a nightmare now...I wish to God I would have been disciplined at winter's end as I needed to be, to take my handfull of healthy non releaseables down to Terry, and accept no more..

I desperately needed to be able to pack and sort and prepair for Moving in a few months.

I have to be moved out of here by the end of December, and even if I had nothing else TO do, "that" would have taken 18 hours a day for six months to do halfway well...everything is so screwed up now, and I am in the worst possible shape to deal with it.


So yes, the way this illness is going with the Birds in here, I can get a Necrospy done may be on Monday or Tuesday...and that is a good idea...


But as for everything which is the context of it, it is a widow maker for me as well...I am so totaly burned out and wasted from over work and not eating not sleeping neglecting everything, and no time for anything, this is the worst developement that could happen as for me having anything left of me to be able to deal with it...

A 'slippery slope'...

I can not even keep up with e-mailing customers asking about why their order is taking so long...I can not even think to do any Work and there is no time to do any anyway.

When can I do any Work? Today? Tomorrow?


I will absolutely never allow myself to ever accept any more Birds again if it is more than one a week.


I will work with the few I find, so long as they are few.
It all used to be really gentle and satisfying and beautiful, and for me anyway, and for them, this has changed.


This has been killing me for months and months and months and now, and now that I am totally wasted beyond any fast renewal of mind or energy or stamina, I am confronting this spreading illness which is killing them, and it is all my fault for having been so stupid that I was not saying "No, I am sorry, but I can not take any more" from last Christmas on.


So now even the old sweet healthy floor Birds are probably going to die too...

I can not even find most of them, so probably they are, who knows where...shall I spend all day moving things to see? Shall I spend all day Mopping? Shall I spend any time at all getting caught up on my two months backlog of neglected Work? Shall I clean up the outside where the firemarshals and others are issueing complaints? Shall I let them in here so they can offer ideas? Shall I have a bite to eat? I have eaten nothing today, as usual, no time, everything too harried, all these endless overlapping exigencys...

I fell so totally exhausted I do not know where to begin.

I can not manage what is happenning here now...it is too much.


Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil,
What's happening at your place is exhausting and too much for one person to cope with but, you need to eat first and then you need to sleep.
After that, you need to think about who you might call on to help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil,

Charis is quite right .. you need to stop right now, get a bite to eat, and get some sleep. Your trying to help the birds when you, yourself, cannot really function is a huge no go. You are not helping the birds or yourself. Trust me .. I KNOW from personal experience that this is very hard advice to take, but you must for the well being of all.

If you need to get birds here to me or to Bart, just let me know when you can make the trip (yeah .. I know that's a tough thing too ..).

You take care of yourself, Phil. The birds are going to have to manage on their own for tonight.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, I hope you feel better in the morning and, with a clearer head, can make
some arrangements to free yourself up. It's a no starter to walk around feeling
like a zombie w/too many obligations. I really empathize and hope you get the
handle on this one.

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Oh Phil, I am so very sorry that it has come to this. My heart goes out to you sir. You are just so overwhelmed with pigeon rehab issues at the moment. You do need to put yourself first and take care of your own personal needs and livlihood FIRST, otherwise, as it has been mentioned, you will be of no use to yourself or your patients.

I only have 8 pet pigeons Phil, and sometimes they have to be squeezed into my work/life schedule. You must be at your wits end. 

Step back, get some rest and good nourishment, and clear your head. 

You need *YOU*

Your pateint birds of course depend on you

And PT needs you, but don't allow problems to get out of control.

Remember that Phil comes first,* or *nothing else will go well. 

Take care.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Again, Phil, I am adding my concerns with our other members. We are here and want to help.

Please take time to get some rest and food! 

Terry has offered to take birds, so that can be a big load off your mind.

With our other "family" members I am adding my own personal

LOVE and HUGS

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks everyone,



In the mean time, I wish I had something to go on as to what this illness is.


Two more are showing symptoms now.


Cipro-metronidazole do not - did not seem to have done anything.


Any ideas or intuitions on what I might try?


I do not have Doxycycline...

I do have somd various others though...


Let me know if you have any hunches or ideas?


Otherwise, I am going to mop for a while...and disinfect the floor in the front room.

Waterers are medioum strength Tea made of Berberry, Echinechea and some other things with Grape Fruit Seed extract added...

I could think of nothing else to try and make the waterers 'safe' and maybe even this will not do it, but I have no other way for the various free rove ones to have Water otherwise.


I do not hve cages to put every one into to keep them seperate from eachother...


Thanks!

Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,
It sounds like you may have a viral something going on with the birds. I hear what you are saying about feeling overwhelmed. Right now it seems like supportive treatment is all you can do until you can get some confirmation with the vet/necropsy etc. But first you need to get some traction on that slippery slope. You might approach it the same way you would with a new bird. The first step is rest and food for YOU. Eight hours of sleep and a couple of meals will help a great deal with focus and decision making. Then begin at any point-like untangling a thread knot. One way might be to identify a block of time every day-say two hours- to respond to customers, or clean or do a discreet task. Is there anyone who might help you with the birds, or do some cleaning for you or other tasks that might help you? Above all, these things happen. It isn't prior bad judgement that caused your birds to become ill. If there is any way I might help I would be glad to.

Margarret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, since I do not know what else to do, I do have Oxytetricycline.


It is not easy for me to figure out what the dose should be, or how to measure out from the large packet of 181 grams powder...but...


I will try and figure the math out for the dose for Water mixing, and mix up enough for two one Gallon Waterers...and see if it helps them.

I have a tiny Gram scale, electronic, which maybe I can use to weigh a certain amount for the mixing in their Water.


I put the deceased one in the freezer for a little while, pending a move to the refrigerator part soon, as he was covered in Ants already and I wanted to slow the Ants down so I could brush them off.

I had wrapped him up earlier and set him aside but had not put him in the 'frige yet.

The sick ones do not seem to be doing any pooping...


Oh, also, the deceased one, and the present seriously ill one, I did give them each a pill for Coccidiosis, for whatever good thta did or did not do...

Otherwise, less symptomatic ones seem to have been making poops oof light to mediun green 'soup' solids, in light clear syrup/water...


Oye...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margarret,



Yeeeesh, I hope it is not Viral...


There have been no in-coming Birds with these symptoms in over two or three years, when I last saw this sort of thing.


No new Birds have had anything like this, for the others to have gotten it from.


I have Mice here which there is no way to be rid of but for cathing in safe-traps...I had been keeping up on that off and on, then got behind...


Possibly, they have caught something from the Mice, or by eating the odd Mice Droppings...and being behind on sweeping/mopping/cleaning, I am confident there are plenty of Mice droppings laying about if anyone wanted to peck one.


My new digital scale is total junk...I can not get any useful results with it.


Finally, when it refused to weigh anything more than a teaspoon of light powder, claiming it was exceeding it's 500 Gram limit, I gave up...and it claimed the 1/2 teaspoon worth weighed 289 Grams...which is nuts.


Anyway, trying to figure out how to get Two Galllons of Water medicated with the Oxytetricycline, and to some appropriate concentration of 400 - 800 mG per Gallon...which would be like a Gram and a half to be on the stiffer side, but how to get a Gram and a Half measured out, when I can not do it by volume, and the only scale I have which was sold to me AS being accurite for such things, is not working...


There are no dispensing Pharmacists anywhere near here, and likely none open at this hour anyway.

The packet contains 186 Grams...and it seems tedious to try and devide it up into 186 even parts to say 'here' is one Gram, or to dive in halfs on down to something, and...I dunno, maybe I can figure out a volume way of some kind...using empty syringe barrels of known volume...go from there...

I hate this, I can not even remember my own name I am so far gone, and trying to figure this stuff out is like trying to Dance or hit a Baseball under water or something...


Lol...


Phil
l v


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Phil,

I am so sorry, you need to take care of yourself first and then you can allow time for everything else, you must be able to take care of things according to priority I know but health for you is number one, and if you are not able to do your work then you will not have a home or food or medications needed. Try to get a little caught up as you can on one thing at a time, as far as secluding birds what you can do for temporary isolation is if you can go to the dollar store and get you some plastic laundry baskets only if you have time, then take the plastic Laundry baskets and put down some news paper and put pigeons under them, you can get the plastic cups also at the dollar store and tie strips, strip tie the cups to the sides of the baskets for food and water and this will give you the chance to monitor each of the birds individualy and get them all contained so that it will be easier on you to keep up with them. Nice thing with the plastic cups and paper is you just toss them out and replace them as needed instead of all the cleaning, if needed you can put a bleach water mixture in a spray bottle to spray things as needed on the floor prior to putting down the paper.

Now back to your health, you really need to care for yourself, food, water, and sleep are very important and you will find that you will get a new perspective once you get this. I can tell you from first hand experience that the damage you do from letting things get out of hand with your health is sometimes irreversable. I let that happen and you can ask Terry I was very sick for a long while and still have not gotten completely better, I am now on medication for the rest of my life and will have up and down days and I have to be very careful to not get to over tired or it seems to take me a long time to come out of it, stress plays a big toll on me, so please take care of yourself as this is the most important thing you can do right now before anything else. I am including a little information for you that might help.

Oxytetracycline (Terramycin): Most effective against respiratory infections - especially when combined with tylosin. Occasionally these antibiotics will control more serious infections - but only a low percentage unless an antibiotic sensitivity has confirmed their effectiveness. 

Dose : 60-75 mg per pigeon per day – 600 -1500 mg per 4 liters for 7-14 days.

In warm weather use 1 teaspoon of drug (250 mg) for 4 liters of water. 

mg = milligram (1/1,000g)

http://www.medcalc.com/pedidose.html - Conversion/Dosing Calculator

http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm

http://www.peteducation.com/category_summary.cfm?cat=1829

http://www.peteducation.com/index.cfm?cls=15

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...


Heres what I did -


Please check my math...


"Oxytetricycline HCI" - "Soluable Powder" - "Terramycin"...181.4 g - Plastic Packet envelope.


I determined that by a paper Funnel, I filled a 30 ml Callibrated Syringe however many times, noting each time the amount, so that the entire contents of the envelope was determined to be 265 mL in gently sifted volume, not tapped or packed in any way.


The envelope recommends concentrations of the medicine to the tune of 400 - 800 mG per Gallon for the drinking Water of effected Birds, for a long list of illnesses and systemic problems, so, I elected to emulate that dose/concentration.


My reconning is this -

800 mG is .8 of a Gram ( Point Eight)


So, the contents of the envelope, being 181.4 Grams, .8 of a Gram is to that, as one/225th., more or less.


One 225th. of 265 mL of volume, is about 1.17 mL


So, to mix Three Gallons, I elected to use 3.4 mL in Volume, of the Soluable Oxytetricycline powder.


Let me know if you think the math sounds right...


And wish me luck...this is about the only thing I can think of to try, along with the Teas I am making.

Otherwise, as of last count an hour or so ago, there were five effected Birds, and all of them so far are young ones, free rove free fly ones, who are about fourty days to sixty days old.


Knock on Wood, no 'older' Adults are showing any of these symptoms yet...and of course I hope they do not do so.


I am speculating that this illness is something these young ones may have acquired from pecking Mouse poops on the floor in behind the ways places where I know they sometimes graze, or mid floor in times I have not swept yet, in spite of my keeping the major areas tolerably clean or swept.

Mice can carry with no harm to themselves, an endless list of woes which their poops can impart in any warm moist condition such as tepid food, or inside a Crop...so this is my speculation, and my gamble, that this Medicine may aid them in recovery.


Everyone here will be on this medicine Water, but for maybe a few of the Cage Birds, with a careful eye on them of course...


Thanks...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

relofts said:


> Phil,
> 
> 
> Oxytetracycline (Terramycin): Most effective against respiratory infections - especially when combined with tylosin. Occasionally these antibiotics will control more serious infections - but only a low percentage unless an antibiotic sensitivity has confirmed their effectiveness.
> ...




Hi relofts, 


Thank you...

This is the only med I have that I can think of to use...


Cipro-Metronidazole-'Appertex' did not do anything by day two for the earliest effected one who died already...nor did it do anything by day two for another who is still hanging on, at least not in so far as to seem to slow the illness or hint at any improvement.



The only other Medicine I have which might be worth considering, is "DIVET" which is 'Sulfadiazynum Trimthoprinium'...similarly recommended for "Bacterial infections, Salmonella, E. coli, respiratory infections..."


Possibly I can give everyone THAT too...


Any reason not to do so?


Thats it then as far a what I have to give them...


Oh, hmmmmm...dose wise, I made their Water to be 800 mG per Gallon.


25 Birds ( close enough, ) will drink a Gallon in 24 hours...so, 1/25th of 800 mG per day, is 32...or 32 mG per Bird per day...clearly, this is barely half of what you are stating as a recommended dose.

I should add more then to the Waterers...a sloppy matter unfortunately, as they are the ones with the Lipped Saucer and Jug on it, so the Saucer portion stays 3/4 inch full...so I will lose some in the upturning, but I can upturn over something to save it...


Anyway...what the heck, may as well add more meds to these solutions then.

And I may as well give everyone a "Divet" Pill also...



Thanks..!


Wish me luck..! With them luck...!




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phill,

For mopping cleaning mix up some 10% bleach. It will kill all organisms at once, bacteria, mould, virus and soforth. It won't hurt the birds. Bless your heart, you really have a fight on your hands and need a stronger cleaning solution right now. 

It could have been that a symptom free bird was a carrier, spread whatever this is to the rest of the flock in the water.

My thoughts are with you as I know many others here are.

Margarret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Margarret,


Bleach I have, also 'Oxine'...


Lost the second one overnight.

I will refrigerate him also I suppose, with the prospect of obtaining a Necrospy to-morrow.


Five 'Squeakers' ) and one semi weak Leg lost Homer who got used to the Bed for night time) on the Bed is interesting...don't want them on the floors, and no Cage room for their sleepy-pie time ( almost was, but it got an occupant)...so...they have the one 'long' half, where they distribute themselves as they see fit, and they abide and stay on their 'side'. I have a sheet folded in half longways for them, and one for me, and the color difference is a cue, so, works out well...


They behaved wonderfully, only got wound up once because they could tell I was awake ( how, I do not know, I had not moved a bit, and I was facing away from them). But the recognition swept through them, and in moments, I had all these little Beaks and clawed Feets happening against my back...finally had to roll over and "Huuuuuuush...!" them a few times ( nicely of course, ) and put some cupped hands over the more wound up twirley ones...and they settled down. 


Though I had determined to refuse any new Birds, one of 'my' out door ferals was giving me the 'look' yesterday near twillight...he had situated himself in front of the Feed Sack, and I knew instantly he had some sort of troubles, so, I picked him up, decent weight, full muscle, clean vent, I set him back down...when I walked away after feeding everyone out there, I saw one Wing was low...I made myself walk away.


Later, out front, a friend had stopped by for a moment, we were talking...Mr. Feral walks up, looks at me, turns, walks out into the Street, crosses the Street, and is walking 'home' I suppose...so, I walk over and scoop him up...look him over again, nothing broken, but something amiss with the Wing, a sprain or pulled muscle maybe, so...

I tape him primarys together, set him in a clean cage...poops are nice, he had a full Crop too...very friendly fellow, he is fascinated with how there are other Pigeons in here, calm in his cage...he gets the whole scene...and I am sure, knew it all along the way he made his gestures of presenting himself and all...

Oh well...maybe I can start a 'cuss box' which is not for cussing, but for broken resolutions...

A 'small' one anyway...not too ambitious...


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, I'm sorry to hear about the new one, and there's alot of reading here
to catch up on, but a couple of things that come to mind is, the first bird,
if really put in the freezer, won't be able to be necropsied. They need to be
stored in a refridgerator but not frozen. Also, I know that natural products
are very important to you and that you are intending also to use regular
meds at this point. I would, though, d/c natural additives to the diet at
this point except possibly ACV. I'd keep it simple and just do seeds, grit and
water so that you have "crunched down" the amount of possible issues around 
ingesting anything that could be a culprit. This would be for self feeding/watering birds, 
the hand feeding ones, well, I'd still try and keep it simple there as well for both you and the birds. 
Although,if you are going to be using the tetracycline family, you will want to pull the grit for now. 
Hope you have a better day today and this thing gets nipped in the bud. 
I like the concept of getting "traction on the slope".

fp

Phil, I see now, that you put the first bird in the freezer only temporarily
for the ant situation. Hopefully you will be successful in finding out
life saving info Monday w/the Necropsy.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Phil,

The necropsy is the way to go so you know for sure what is happening, I might suspect young bird sickness also known as Circovirus, the only thing you can do if this is the case is to treat preventative for all illness, give them an immune booster and vitamins, bleach water for disinfecting and try to isolate birds into one area that have symptoms and let it run it's course, but the necropsy will give the entire story. I am very sorry you are having to go through this please let us know as you can what is happening. I also suggest that when you get a chance to get some Winsmore from Jedds or one of the other feed supply companies please do so, this vitamin mixture is one that I highly suggest to anyone with pigeons, it is almost a cure in it's self for watery droppings and will assist with boosting them, I think I paid $4.95 for a small bag of it, it is mixed at 1/2 tsp to a gallon of water and is the best thing on the market so far, I always revert back to it to boost the birds. When giving a immune booster stay away from the echinacea try something like elder berry as the birds immune system will not become dependent on elder berry as it does echinacea, I usually get the gel caps and put 2 to a gallon of water, it can be used with treating with antibiotics.

Ellen


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh, Phil,
I'm so sorry things are such a awful mess for you. When one is totally fried mentally and physically everything is so much worse. YOU know your friends here on P-T are in your corner. Like everyone said, get some sleep some food, do the minimum bird care and get your backlogs out. 
Hope the birds aren't getting any worse. 
Take care
Thoughts and prayers coming your way.
Mary


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil and Ellen, if Phil is putting in an order, that would be different than continuing w/things that have been on the shelf at home. Could be that the
product if less than 6 months on our shelves, but who knows how long it's sat
somewhere else. Also, too many combos when not feeling well yourself, Phil,
is alot to keep track of.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, I'm sorry to hear about the new one...




Hi fp,



He is very sweet, who knows, maybe he had been in here before at some point...he is 'easy' just needs some time where it is safe for his injury to heal...he likely would not have lasted another day out there, traffic, Cats and so on...




> Also, I know that natural products
> are very important to you and that you are intending also to use regular
> meds at this point.




All free rove's Waterers are medicated as of yesterday ( Yesterday? time seems very flat just now...but anyway) and all symptomatic ones are in a larger Cage, getting water-meds and "Divet" pills also.


The Herb Tea is in addition to their Meds...and is in their Water also.


They seem to like it...me too, nice flavor...




> I would, though, d/c natural additives to the diet at
> this point except possibly ACV.




I need every possibly aid I can muster...

These Herbs should do well in ways similar to the ACV...I was not sure about having ACV in the same Water as the Oxytetricycline, fearing it might precipitate it.


Any idea if it is for sure alright to have them in the same Water?


If okay, I will add ACV as well...


Did add Grapefruit Seed Ectract liquid...six drops or to to each Gallon...





> I'd keep it simple and just do seeds, grit and
> water so that you have "crunched down" the amount of possible issues around
> ingesting anything that could be a culprit. This would be for self feeding/watering birds,
> the hand feeding ones, well, I'd still try and keep it simple there as well for both you and the birds.
> Although,if you are going to be using the tetracycline family, you will want to pull the grit for now.



Grit was accidently pulles not long ago anyway, when I ran out and got new but forgot to bring new in...



> Hope you have a better day today and this thing gets nipped in the bud.
> I like the concept of getting "traction on the slope".
> 
> fp
> ...



Yahhhh, I left him in the freezer too, by accident, since my memory is about shot.


Deceased No. 2, I merely put in the refrigerator...so he will be the Necropsy candidate...


This is so sad, the two who have perished, were siblings...and though very 'wild' in their way, no way I could catch them or anything unless it was dark in here...pending release...once ill, each in turn was walking up to me and just looking up...asking to be picked up, wishing to be helped. They were about 50 days old...maybe a little less...


One vector I realized...I bought two Bags of Seed, small Bags, snall whole Peanuts and Sunflower kernals mixed...got these five or six days ago...used from them spraingly, but...anyway, decided to toss them...who knows, but as you say, reduce the possible variables...


Thanks fp...

Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

relofts said:


> Phil,
> 
> The necropsy is the way to go so you know for sure what is happening, I might suspect young bird sickness also known as Circovirus, the only thing you can do if this is the case is to treat preventative for all illness, give them an immune booster and vitamins, bleach water for disinfecting and try to isolate birds into one area that have symptoms and let it run it's course, but the necropsy will give the entire story. I am very sorry you are having to go through this please let us know as you can what is happening. I also suggest that when you get a chance to get some Winsmore from Jedds or one of the other feed supply companies please do so, this vitamin mixture is one that I highly suggest to anyone with pigeons, it is almost a cure in it's self for watery droppings and will assist with boosting them, I think I paid $4.95 for a small bag of it, it is mixed at 1/2 tsp to a gallon of water and is the best thing on the market so far, I always revert back to it to boost the birds. When giving a immune booster stay away from the echinacea try something like elder berry as the birds immune system will not become dependent on elder berry as it does echinacea, I usually get the gel caps and put 2 to a gallon of water, it can be used with treating with antibiotics.
> 
> Ellen



Hi Ellen, 


Thank you...


Hopefully my Vet will be able to make some sort of findings or conjecture or determination based on the Necrospy...of course, no telling when he would be able to get around to doing it, but I will do my best a.s.a.p. to-morrow, Monday, if he is in, to impress on him the urgency...


"Winsmore" sounds nice...I will send off for some.

AND I will send off for some injectible Batryl today also, so they can ship tomorrow next day Air.


Herb Tea is fairly heavy on Berberry, otherwise also several other things...I have very little Echinechea and could not get more at the two stores, otherwise, Goldenseal, some five Herb immune nourisher which is of yet other ingredients, Licorice...some Ginger...all fine powders which steep nicely...

Really yummy...

Circovirus...I will do some 'googles' later and see more about it.



Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, no, I wouldn't add ACV to water that you have already added meds to,
just to be clear.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, no, I wouldn't add ACV to water that you have already added meds to,
> just to be clear.
> 
> fp




Hi fp,



Thanks for the confirm...

I recall something about that the ACV can precipitate meds in solution, causing them to collect on concentrations at the bottom...no good of course...if that happens...

Be fine I am sure for ACV and Herb Teas to be combined, if one wanted...but would maybe be redundant in it's way.



Do you or others know anything about "Dimethylglycine"..?


I found mention of it under some 'Circovirus' lookings...


http://www.pigeonbooks.com/samples/circo.html




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lost a third one...he sank slowly over the last few days.


Other mildly symptomatic ones holding their own it seems...so far...standing anyway, and not into any 'horizontal' poses...not eating though, and I will maybe tube feed them tomorrow, but i wsnted to see how they'd do otherwise, and not burdon them...


I left a message at my Vets, seeking an appointment tomorrow.


Plum tired now even though I got three naps in since about this time last night...once I do start getting sleep, I start getting tired...everyone's fed and pilled and whatever else...a couple things to do still, then I am hitting the hay.


Thanks everyone for your good words and moral support...


Nighty night...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone...


Brought one of the mid-stage symptom youngsters ( a 50 day old or so )...brought my observations, list of symptoms and their progressions, and also brought the refrigerated Necropsy candidate who was the newest perished, to my Vet for my 2:00 O'Clock appointment.


Long story short, we spent quite a while and he was very into trying to figure this out, but he said he so seldom sees Virus patients that he is not as familiar as he wishes he was at making off the cuff determinations based on symptoms.


However, he felt Adenovirus to be a probable suspect...and he said with things such as this, as we know, there is only such supportive care as one can invent or manage, Antibiotics for possible ancillary infections...and, those who die, will die...and those who live, will live. 

And it would likely have run it's course, whatever course it will be, in a week or two.

This Virus appearently can effect their digestive system, so that food they had eaten or which one may tube feed, will not get through anyway. I have seen this already with some who have died, where their Crops were full or partially full for three days, with no poops whatsoever but dabs or even large blobs of Bile, and Nystatin did not help.



He will do the gross Necrospy later today, and call me with his findings.

And, he will send out however many Organ Biopsys he feels are sensible to do, for technical Lab analysis, for which the results will take about five days or maybe six.

These will report back with specific information as to what Virus or as may be was able to be determined.



I see today, various older mature Birds, 'Poppa Shot Wing' my beloved Champion Surrogate Father-Bird to any 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' presented to his Nest, whether or not his Mate 'Silverwing' is enthused about it or not...

He is a floor bird now, and making the signal poops of mere bile and clear syrup, as the dieing ones had done during their last days. And he was the most robust and strongest and largest here...which may have nothing to do with who dies and who does not from a Virus...but still...

As are other older Birds now...showing signs.


So...that is all I can think of to report...


The Cage Bird in here from broken Wings or other...knock on wood, all seem to be fine...and not showing any signs of this.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

I'm so so sorry to hear your Poppa Shot-Wing is showing symptoms. It must feel like the plague has descended. I'm hoping this is type 1 adenovirus, for which there is hope of recovery for some of the birds. Because the ill ones continuosly shed the virus, there is little you can do other than separate them from the flock and do supportive care.

Margarret


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh Phil, I hope Poppa will be okay. I'm with Margarret. It must feel like the plague running through your little flock.  

Thoughts and prayers that this will end soon with no more bad outcomes.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, not your sweet Poppa.  I wish there was something I could tell you or some way to help you through this.

I mentioned in your other thread that I would leave off anything in the water but the meds for now. I know that sometimes when I am on an antibiotic they will tell me particularly not to eat grapefruit so I would, for right now, definitely stop the extract. I dearly love grapefruit but seems most of the meds I take carry a warning to not eat them so we don't even buy them anymore.

I hope you've seen the end of the deaths and I so hope Poppa will survive.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 



Thanks so much...!


'Poppa' seems to have a sprained wing, slightly held low, is not flying, and was hard to catch and VERY vigorous when I did finaly get him scooped up. If anyone here would prefer NEVER to be picked up, it is him.


At one point I glimpsed him doing the Tail wiggle while standing on Silver Wing's lower back...whereafter she did her short swooping walk and paused to savor the moment a little more...so, possibly this suggests these two anyway, are not feeling too poorly.




His Vent Feathers do not show any hints of 'green' staining...so I may have mis-interpreted yesterdays glimpses of him...the Bile poops I thought were his, should have stained his Vent Feathers, which is seen on the others ones who were pooping Bile...so...I dunno, maybe he is approximately okay afterall, or mildly effected, and those poops I thought were his by inferance to where he had just been, were actually someone else's.


Otherwise....the three who have heavy symptoms...one of whom I did not think was going to last the night, and I did not think the other two were at all far behind him, maybe six hours behind him I thought...these three as of this early afternoon now, are all standing, moderately interested in their surrounds, and had eaten the small Bowl of Seeds I set in there last night, scattering a few. They seem rather frail, but are standing in normal postures.


Beginnings of some real 'poops' litter their cage bottom Towell, which I will change in a few minutes.

They each got 'Cipro' last night...and will get some more in a moment.


Things are getting a little 'noisy' in here again anyway, where for a few days there, it was very 'quiet'...there are three or four 'mooers' as I type...and some 'Aroooka-Roos' from the front room. Quite a bit of Wing sounds off and on of various free fliers flying short forays form one high thing to another...where for a while there, almost everyone was just standing around mostly on the floor, with a few perchers merely, being quiet, doing nothing, and sort of day dreaming on the floor in small gatherings or by themselves. Very little flying or sounds all tolled.


I think I will tube feed the Three Amigos...

All the 'peeper/squeaker' bunch are all wound up wondering where the heck their chow is and how come it is not happenneing yet...so, I have that warming.


Well, I called the Farm and Feed Store...asking about what Antibiotics they had on hand.

The 'Teramycin' ( Oxytetricycline ) is the only bulk powder one they have.


They also have Amoxycillin Tablets, which I did not know they carried...

'Tylan' injectable...( I know nothing about that one ) 

"L A" injectable...( if I heard him right...and likewise, I know nothing about that one )

And Pennicilin injectable...


I think I should stay with the Termycin ( Oxytetricycline ) then...in all the Waterers.


Well, feed time for 'Squeakers' at the old Corrall I think...they sure think so anyway...

Finally made some Good Coffee...nice...



Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I'm so glad to hear that Papa Shot Wing is OK along with his mate. It sounds like you are getting a handle on it Phil. The fact that the really sick ones are pecking at seed a bit is excellent news. Because they shed the virus for weeks after surviving the illness, after you finish with the antibiotics you might consider adding a tsp of bleach to each gallon of water for everyone. Once the acute phase is over, then it is a long prophylactic time to make sure it doesn't crop up active again. Bleach is one of the most sure fire viral killers I know of. I trust it over just about any of the so called anti-germ stuff.
During cold and flu season my house smells like a swimming pool with me wiping down surfaces with 10%. LOL My rehabber friend who treats all kinds of sick birds swears by it for cleaning cages, surfaces etc.

Enjoy your coffee! I think things are turning around.

M.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I add my hopes that things are turning around, Phil!!

Your situation is certainly nerve-wracking for all involved. If I was a nail biter, at this point, I would have no nails LEFT!!

SENDING ALL THE WARM HEALING THOUGHTS I CAN, ALONG WITH LOVE, HUGS AND SCRITCHES!!

Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Oh Phil, I hope Poppa will be okay. I'm with Margarret. It must feel like the plague running through your little flock.
> 
> Thoughts and prayers that this will end soon with no more bad outcomes.


Hi flitsnowzoom, Margarret, Shi...


Thank you...


Well, since Sunday's overnight, those others who are ill, have been hanging on...going a litle up, then a little down, then a little up...then a little down...so, thay are hanging on.

I am tube feeding these, small meals...I was afraid on overdoing the chow, so likely I have erred on to little food. But tomorroe I will up the portions or frequency.

Some of these I really was not expecting to have stayed with us this far...but they have.


Been trying to read here and there in stolen 'Coffee Breaks'...seeing if I can find anything which sounds like this. But nothing...or many things partially, are similar in symptoms but onbly in some of the symptoms.


Metronidazole 'seems' to help...

The Herb Tea in the Water seems to help...

I can not tell if the Oxytetricycline is helping, but it seems a prudent addition to have...


The serious ones I have on Cipro, also...as well as Dimethylglycine which is not a Medicine but has been reported to aid Immune Systems in duress.


Talked with 'Pidgey' today...really appreciated his knowledge and insight.


This is an ambiguous presentation, to use-a-phrase.

Seems probably Viral...but could be Bacterial or other, too.

The same agent can make of course many differeing presentations, depending on how it had entered or concentrated in the Bird's system.


This makes things very complicated, often, whether we hapen to remember that or not when imagining toward some possible diagnosis.


Anyway, whew, I am beat...time for some sleep and to tuck in all the little Beaks.


Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, the 'Three Amigos' who seemed to be so very much sadly on their last legs there for several days, and two of them were 'down' into that final pose...were today into some frail wobbley 'pacing' when they saw me carrying in the Pan of Warm Water in which the tube-feed chow sits...and are overall standing in fairly normal if looking somewhat tired poses.


Two nuzzled assertively in their weak way, allowing me to easily open their Beaks, as I held them, wishing to be 'tubed', and third one showed her consistant recalcitrance and "I don't need you!" ways...and had her "Beak of IRON" for me to pry open to feed her.


No one has died now in about 65 hours or so, and, as far as those who have been suffering heavy symptoms, they are looking better, after some various ups and downs.


Metronidazole has seemed to help...as has my adding a concentrated Cranberry Extract syrup to their tube formula.

I have to go to 'Petsmart' now since we ran out of the whole tiny Seeds which figure into some things here.

Some of the medly of 'Squeakers' are almost normal looking now as far as their manerisms and making good nice poops.

One is still very frail, sleeps constantly, yet is very bright and happy come feed times ( the 'tube'). I noticed his eyes seem cloudy, and I am worried the illness in his case has effected his Eyes.

We shall see...but I know his Eyes had been clear and bright previously and slowly acquiring a fogged-inside look to them.


So...thats the News from this little Home Town Paper...

'Poppa Shot Wing' and his mate 'Silverwing' are making a Nest in the corner next to my Dresser on the floor, oweing to his sprained Wing ( and sprained Leg on the same side...) 

I will be certain to slip in dummy-Eggs soon as Silver Wing lays any.

And this way too I can watch them better to see how they are doing.

Various ones here have some mild symptoms of 'something' which is making for watery Urates.

I guess time will tell on what-all goes on from here...



Love,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Phil,

Glad to hear that you haven't suffered any more losses.

Sure hope the rest of them have gone through the worst of it and will be recovered soon.

Linda


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## Fever (May 28, 2007)

I'm absolutely amazed by how much kindness you have shown these birds, and am glad to hear that they seem to be picking up. I hope they all recover from this, and that you can finally get some well-needed rest!
Best wishes!


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## Jazicat (Oct 31, 2005)

Just wanted to say your in our thoughts. I hope everyone is well soon and you can rest.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 



Well, while things seem in various ways to have found a plateau of sorts...within that, there are continueing disappointments.

One of the "Three Amigos" ( the most frail of them, and the one who I did not think would last the night a few times previously, ) died this morning, even though he had seemed to be doing so much better there for a while.

The remaining Two Amigos are about the same, holding their own, and have a long way to go to get out of these 'Woods'...I dare not tube feed them more than the not much I am, for fear of it making problems for them, and I feel somewhat that I had erred in what the frail one COULD handle, who perished this morning, and somehow I may have contributed to it by burdoning him with formula ( 10 ccs, three times yesterday, spaced over 18 hours, so 30 ccs total for those 24 hours, ) but he, and the other two, were getting very "very" thin and light.


So, they are starving, yet making almost no poops even when I do feed them, and their Crops take forever to empty, so I had been doing small meals three or four times a day, for several days, and the total poops for these Three Birds was not eough to fill a teaspoon...and so...what to do? At least I am keeping them hydrated with electrolyte and Medicine Water...and they do not seem to have static or sour Crops, and they ARE very interested to be fed...he was too...

I had prevmously tried feeding more, but it seemd their Crops were shrunken, and even when empty, there is not much room for more than that.

None of these three had been pooping 'bile'...but only making tiny poops and small urate amounts even for drinking quite a bit off and on through the days...just nothing getting through TO be pooped. Crops Do empty, if slowly...


Too, a long time non-releaserable who had been thin and a little frail since the beginning, if a maker of healthy nice poops, who always ate well and so on, he died today also, appearently from this illness which in his case, progressed quickly through the general 'sinking' symptoms in a mere two days or so. I know he looked fine and normal three days ago, but it changed.

I was tube feeding him also for those couple days, since he had given up eating. 


Lastly, the littlest 'Squeaker' who 'Dove Zilla' liked to feed, and who others also liked to feed, and who had charmed everyone, he died this afternoon, but it is unclear to me what all had occurred with him.


He had been going slowly down for several days certainly, but still ate well and with interest when others fed him, and today, went from seeming pretty well tolerably alright, to perishing, over some seven hours or so.

He had fallen to the floor from the bed at one point early today, and somehow I think this injured him, he felt chilled when I noticed he had fallen and I got him scooped up, where prior he had always been a little 'furnace'.

In fact he was such a steady 'furnace' I had kept him next to a frail 'Squeaker' under a little cloth on the Bed, and they both seemed fine there like that, off and on for the last couple days...


Seeing he felt chilled, I Hand Nest warmed him a while, then got him into a fresh Clean sanitized small Cage with a warm heating pad...but he was just not the same, and from there he just slowly sank, and I never could rally him.

His digestive system was still working fairly well to the end, Crop was full from recent feeds, and he had been making allright enough looking poops.


So, today was not a very good day here in those respects.


I do not know what else to say aside from this report.



Phil
l v


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear you lost them, Phil. I hope and pray this will end soon.

Reti


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

I'm truly sorry about your losses. It's hard, I know.

Hope your current situation will improve soon and please, take care of yourself.

Suzanna


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Phil, I am so sorry. I really feel for you in this terrible ordeal you and your pijies are going through. I hope this is the last of it, it is too sad.
Please do try to take care of yourself as well.
Sabina


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I'm really sorry.

Can you rush your vet some on the necropsy. You're simply working in the dark here until you can get some findings.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, I'm really sorry.
> 
> Can you rush your vet some on the necropsy. You're simply working in the dark here until you can get some findings.



Hi Maggie, 


He did the preliminary gross Necropsy last Monday...in which nothing remarkable was to be seen other than some enlargement of the Liver and Kidneys. 

Lungs and Airsacs appeared fine...some Intestinal inflammation I think was noted.



But the Organ samples he sent out, he said would take a Week for the findings to come in.


Gotta run...back soon...


Phil
l v


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thinking about you Phil and praying that you and your pigeons to come through this without more losses.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Pigeonpoo...



I vasilate between a calm semi-numbed acceptance, and feeling like I have been kicked by a Horse.


Anyway, did all the 'tube-time' ones just now...

The 'Two Amigos' are holding steady...

And the not self-feeding yet youngsters are still coasting nicely from last night's ( 4:00 a.m. or so) feed where, as they so LOVE, I obligingly stuffed them to the Gills, ( well, letting them eat from the formula-Nipple and the Shot Glass of small whole Seeds) so it looked like they had swallowed a 'Tennis Ball'...

They are certainly old enoughto be self feeding well, but their illness I think effected them so they still think they are "Babys"...and they act like it too..!

God, they are so cute in their wacky ways.




Frailest 'Squeaker' is very much "Fingers Crossed" but his moralle is superb...he has those 'Happy Eyes' which are so good to see. But he is all skin and bones and can not stand up or do anything much. I set him so he is propped more or less vertically, so his formula will stay put as he sleeps, and he pretty well just sleeps unless I wake him up for some chow or Water-times.


Can not feed him much at a time, and he will only self feed from the Nipple a few nibbles worth then gets this look as if to say he would just as soon have me use the tube...so, I do.

He realy likes chow times...and is all wiggles about it.


Well, thats it for now...


Weather is nice lately...I can feel Autumn nearing too.

That feels good...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone,



Well...down to one 'Amigo' now, of what had been the 'Three Amigos' who were all 50 - 60 day old imminent release ones...the second Amigo who had been hanging on, who loved his tube-feed times and nuzzled and was all wiggles and was so sweet and frail...passed away this afternoon.


The remaining 'Amigo' appears to be holding steady and is not frail, although (s)he is definitely lost a lot of weight. This one is a 'Red' Pigeon, and has the "Iron BeaK" when it comes to tube feeds or pills and will not drink either...and is the consumate Wiggle-worm for fighting the "Burrito-Bird" wrap for her ( I think it is a she ) tube feeds...so everything with this one is a STRUGGLE, but I admire her for it, and am glad it is there since it shows she has some reserves...



Also, a little 'Squeaker' who was about 21 days old, the only Baby his two parents ever had in the couple of years they have been here ( they are non-releaseables and poppa has some bad legs, so the mating part is hard for him to get right, and their various prior clutches were always infertile Eggs...but he hobbles around well and both are very sweet and gentle/calm Birds, very faithful and devoyed to eachother )...their little one died early this evening in the Warm Cage after I had set him up and given some meds and Nystatin for a possibly static Crop...having shown only some vague slight symptoms or looking a little wilty and sleeping too much, was still being for sure fed yesterday by his parents, Crop still full but not-right somehow...which I had been noting but I did not intervene in time.


I tried to get with my Vet this morning for some poop analysis and some conference about e-coli, but he was not in today.

The little 'Squeaker' being raised by his parents is the only exception as for any 'new' Birds showing symptoms of any kind...and truth be told he had not been quite up to snuff at any point for the last week or so but I figured he was on the meds everyone was on from the medicated Water dispensers, and what more could I do for him? he was being fed and kept stuffed by his parents, and he was ambulating...and reasonably active and assertive.


We did quite a few Hand Nest times off and on the last several days...he got to where he liked them once over the novelty of being held.

He had been making poos with a lot of 'water' in them, so the last few days I focused in having him drink electrolytes, wishing to keep him from becoming dehydrated...and I kept checking his Crop often and making sure it was 'squshy' also...so at least I was on top of that anyway.


Oye, off to do some more tube feeds and Nipple feeds and just keep making the rounds and checking on various ones and cleaning cages and so on.


All the free roves seem to have been more hungry than usual, so extra fillings of the Seed Bowls for them...



I decided to cease the Metronidazole for those who had been getting it.

And to cease the 'Oxytetricyline' in the Water for the common Waterers and just have some Bleach Water from here on.


So thats it from this little Home Town Paper...thats the News for so-far today.

Ants have been raising hell, and I am a week or more behind on Laundry, so I just went out and bought a bunch more sheets and towells and so on, which worked pretty good too as for the time that took, verses getting things washed.



Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry about these latest losses, Phil. My heart goes out to you and the birds that you look after. I keep hoping that the worst is over.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Terry, 



Me too ( hoping the worst is over)...


As many have faced before me, the ethical dilemma which led to this remains -


I have limited room, resources, knowledge, ability, and at whatever degree of making time for them, I have only so much time, and only so much duration of neglecting all else BUT Birds, before I ruin my own livlihood and Business and at best humble finances to begin with...out of which to offer aid and succour and comforts to a handfull of Birds.

Some Birds who are non-releaseable, I am happy to care for and provide for on a perminant basis, and the remainder I am happy to do what I can for, on a transient basis, pending their recovery and release once ready.


What is a 'handful'?


Probably a dozen at most...all tolled..of these kinds combined...would be the sensible limits I should have stuck to.


I ended up with over 50 Birds in here for almost two months.


This was too many, and certainly a dozen or more did get released in two batches weeks prior to this present illness-outbreak.

I still have over 30 now...

I have lost, I think, 11 or 12 in the course of this present whateveritis...which would mean there were near 40 when this started.

And had released the last batch of six or seven not long ago before this broke out.


Yet, how to say "No" to Birds who I find here or there...or who show up on their own, presenting themselves to me conspicuously, because one way or another they know they can do that if they need help...

How to say "No" to Birds people find, who are Orphan Babys, injured, ill adults or post fledglings who got into privations or whatever...and those people find me somehow, and as far as Las Vegas goes, I am "it", there is basically no other recourse for these Birds.

Either I help them, raise, Baby-feed, convelese, medcate, splint, bandage, and succor them, or they would perish.


So, I could not find any way to say "No"...and I am lucky it has not been worse as for the numbers.


Too, for various reasons, my old 'system' got ruined as for allowing a very easy 'self release' of any who were ready to go...the youngsters comeing of age in here would be socialized to something 'close enough' to the feral wild ways, from being constantly with and ambiantly socialized to the feral wild free roves in here, so that once out, they took to the Feral Flock "like a Duck to Water" and this of course made things easy on me, and easy for them, it is elegant...and it works superbly, every time.

The long since Adults before being here, once done with being here, when released just go on out like a 'Rocket', back to their Mates or places or however so, but seldom appear to join the Flock outside my Door.

So the feral Cats being all the time 24/7 in the Workshop totally screwed up any chance of being able to have the Office door open to the Shop, with a low baracade for the floor Birds to stay decidely "in", as I merely did when there were no Cats...and for me to sort of casually monitor who went out there flying, or who ended up out there for flying out there, to then close the Office door and later open the Big Shop Door the next morning, for whoever was in there, to fly out doors...which they nicely would do, too. And of course right outside there is the feral Flock, so "presto", instant family and new friends if wanted, or as may be...

So these then would join "my' feral Flock, or, soon matriculate to contiguous flocks near by.

I see 'Babys" I remember very well, as adults now, miles from here in other Flocks.


So, I know this had worked very nicely, and it saved me the troubles of doing it "by hand" so to speak, by setting them as pre-fledglings amid the outdoor grazing others, for them to gain the modes and nuances of the socializaitonthey would need.




And so the Cats clogged things up then, ruining my system, for releaseables then not getting released as soon as they could have or should have.

I can not open this door and set a low Baracade without Cats comeing in HERE where the floor-Birds and various others are...

So, since this Cat advent, I have to catch the release candidates by hand, and overall, whether young or Old, they are very wiley and smart and do not want TO be catched-by-hand...so that has been a huge hassle, dangerous for me and them, trying to stand on cluttered desk tops to get to them in the dark and so on, and I got behind in it because it was such a hassle.


Anyway...just catharcising...


But also brooding on how things went ( slowly, steadily, finally ) 'wrong' here, and how I never want to repeat anything like this again...



Love, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 


Well...the "One Amigo" has been several times 'pacing' in her Cage wishing to join the free flying others.

I set a small bowl of regular Seed mix in there for her, and she really was into pecking them and got a few, if mostly scattering them.

Otherwise I am still tube-feeding her for her food and water, since she will not drink on her own.


Frailest 'Squeaker' I figured might like some real Seeds for a change, so we did ten White Safflower Seeds in the Seed-Pop mode...pending his next Nipple-Feed in a few minutes.


All in all, everyone is either holding steady or improving as of today...at least as far as I can determine.


I wlll seek an appointment with my ( my? their?) Vet tomorrow, and see about some Blood Tests or fecal analysis of whatever candidates, as well as to generally go over things with him, and if the Labrotory results are in, we can go over those.


The neurological symptoms of the other three 'Squeakers' have been gradually lessening and abating, and now, most of the time, one does not see any...even if they are a little 'odd' in their way, having a very 'Ostrich' way of standing and running and so on.

Two of these 'Squeakers' ( the 'Ostrich Twins' I suppose, ) are VERY robust and strong and heavy, and seem to have long Legs...and I am amazed, given how these were two of the original very sick ones...and the third is certainly within normal range of weight and strength and so on in his own right, but sleep an aweful lot. where the Ostrich Twins hardly sleep at all, or sleep very lightly when they do, and are all wiggles and energy all the time, yet able to be serene also, thankfully.


The frail fourth one is very frail...spends his time jamming himself into a vertical mode withhis Head under his wing or tucked in somehow, has weak legs, probably Kidney illness or inflamation, sweet disposition and tender enthusiasms about feed times, and appreciates it when I remember to lift him out of his padded 'cloth-well' for him to poop, which he will do in short order since he prefers to have his cloth arrange nice and clean if possible. So if I forget to lift him out soon enough or on schedule, I feel definitely remiss, and then change the cloths.


He is the sole Baby of Poppa shot Wing and Silver Wing's last clutch ( lost the other sibling very early on ) and originally was robust and healthy, but caught some version of the something anyway, which hit him pretty hard.


Well, chow time now for those who need it in the Tube or Nipple...


Thanks everyone...


This sure had been one harrowing sleigh ride here for a while.

And God willing, maybe we are over the hump now...we shall see...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

*"Paramoxyvirus"*

Our Vet called and left a message earlier while I was sleeping.


"Paramoxyvirus"

I have an appointment for 3:00


Well, sure glad he did not call to say 'Newcastle' or 'Chlamydia'...or H5N1...I really did not want to have those tinted window 'appliance white' Vans doing the 'Starsky and Hutch' slide-skid stops out front, with all them guys in the bio suits tumbleing out to say 'Hello!'...


Love,


Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

How did the vet visit go, Phil? 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


Thanks...


Visit went well.

Lab results indicated they had narrowed it down to "Paramoxievirus"


Of all the six or seven Organ samples they analaysed, all were free of any detectable pathology except for some subtle aspects seen microscopically in the Pancreas, which are associated with the PMV.


So, as far as the Medical Science Laboratory Analysis and investigaitons of the Tissue Samples sent to them, that was the finding.


Things appear to be stable here, and or to be in a phase of aftermath...and the 'One Amigo' is self feeding now and starting to make 'real' ( if small ) poops finally...and had stopped being Miss "Iron Beak" last night and let me Seed-Pop about 24 medium large Seeds into her mouth, and she was in fact quite co-operative and interested in doing it...so I did that and then tube fed a good 20 CCs on top of the Seeds, and then later last night she started pecking, or trying to, and as of today is getting the Seeds well enough on her own, in her Cage, to show a fairly full Crop.


One frail skin-and-bones 'Squeaker', seriously palsied, who I am so amazed has managed to live through this at all, has been preening, and sleeping less, in his little soft cloth 'well'...and is sometimes actually standing briefly. He loves to be fed but after two Nipples full indicates he is done, so I tube him maybe 10 or 15 CCs on top of that, till the next feed time...and poops are coming through nicely enough, even though he holds them waiting for me to lift him out of his 'Nest', for a poop-time to happen, since he can not ambulate out on his own to do so.


My Vet and I discussed what antibiotic would be best for the whole bunch to still be on, and 'Doxycycline' was recommended for me to use.


I had sent off for some in the Mail awhile back, it arrived a couple days ago, so I am in good shape on that.


My Vet and I decided that a 60 day quarenteen as for no new Birds, and for none of these being released, would be prudent.


As for whatever possible secondary diseases might have been at work, all I can say is that none were indicated in the Lab results from Organ Tissue Samples taken of the second of the Three 'Amigos', who was the donor.

And all of the Symptoms I could report, were within range of what the MPV cen be xpected to do in varying manifestaitons/presentations.

Overall, I could characterize five distinct-enough symdromes, which I accept were presentations of the PMV in varying expressions and in varuous age groups or lastly in Birds whose Health was poor to begin with ( two ) .


So...thats the up-date, and time now to feed the little ones ( four "Squeakers" and one fledgling who still really likes a little bit just for old time's sake)...since for now, eveyrone else is managing to self-feed well enough on their own...


Maybe I can get to bed early tonight...

Lol...


Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,

I'm glad you finally got a name for what's been happening! Hopefully, things will begin to turn around!

We wish you ALL THE VERY BEST and continue to send HEALING WISHES and THOUGHTS, LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES...

Please take of yourself too!!

Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks shi...!



Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil, 
I was relieved to hear that you finally got a diagnosis so you can have some idea of what you are dealing with. The thing that was so frustrating was how many different presentations this illness gave. I always thought PMV symptoms were pretty specific, but obviously not.

Anyhow, hope the worst of it is over now and the exposed birds are recovering, albeit slowly. Did the vet say if the birds who recover will be immune from now on? I would hope they would be and it makes sense as the vaccine is killed PMV virus. Surviving the live virus should be a sure immunity. I just bought some to get my guys all vaccinated before we go to any shows in the fall. I spoke last year to a breeder back east who said he had gotten sloppy(his words)and not vaccinated one year. Went to a show and when they all got home, PMV broke out. He lost about a third of his birds before it ran it's course. He was devastated. 

I'm glad to hear that things are getting back to managable for you, (reading between the lines here from your posts). I continue to send healing thoughts for all your charges. 

Margarret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margerret, all...



At a friends home, borrowing his Computer...I am on some section of the phone company's grids, which is not allowing my DSL to work, so pending their repairs, I can not connect with the internet.


Well hmmmmm...

My Vet's opinion, was that one would expect those Pigeons who survive a PMV illness, to be immune.

The length of time during which such Pigeons, as parents, would pass to their Babys the specific instructions for producing anti-bodys, I have no information about, but it would be an interesting question.

(Holding my Breath about it, ) I have a 'peeper' who is about two weeks old now, showing no symptoms whatsoever, whose parents showed no symptoms whatsoever.

I can only surmise that the Parents had immunity, and, have passed it to their Baby. There was no sibling so far as I can tell.


Too, if such anti-bodys would persist in the Pigeon Milk for a long time, or for however many successive broods, then one would think this could be a Natural source for 'safe' and convenient means of allowing others to acquire an immunity, if there were a convenient way to borrow some of the Pigeon Milk, and feed it to the erstwhile not exposed candidates of whatever age..if such would work, and I do not know if it would.


Possibly, if one has some robust, mated pairs who have survived the PMV, then they could foster for whatever needed short period, such Babys from other parents who had never been exposed to have survived it, as one way of allowing a valuable immunity to be shared.


Otherwise...


Little frailest of the Peepers...is ravenous, making good poops finally, and putting on weight and looking very normal now as for his ways of moving and so on, showing no neuological hints of symptoms at all. He sleeps maybe a little more than normal, but not near as much as he was. He does tuck his Head in almost under his Wing while sleeping, and in this manner is rather Sparrow-like.

He lost all of his Tail Feathers some time back, possibly from the various pressures of being in a soft cloth 'Well' which I had to do to prop him up.

However, somehow, he has lost the use of one Leg, and the Toes and Thumb are softly curled. Other leg works normally now and is strong.

For quite a while there he had both legs stuck out stiffly and strongly, and would merely fall over unless set into a soft 'well', but somewhere in the last few days, the one leg is limp.


I will examine it some more in case he somehow cracked a bone or something, maybe falling off the bed, which I know he did do a time or two, in spite of his being kept in a four inch tall side, open box, in a 'well' of soft cloths.


Otherwise, all who had symptoms are improving.

No new occurances os symptoms seem to be happenning.

Those with symptoms were all youngsters, or young adults, and no older Birds appeared to have gotten it ( other than one or two older already convelesent ones in cages who were in bad health already) 


Some of these I am doing a lot of Seed Pop with since they are having some troubles eating enough by pecking, and they are happy to go along with the Seed Pop, so all is well and easy on that score.


Gotta run...


Thanks!


Till next, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Charis, hi everyone, 


Update...


Well, the third or last remaining 'Amigo' - a 'brown' Pigeon who was a post-fledgling at the time - eventually got a lot better and now seems almost without any trace of having ever had the troubles. Flying pretty well indoors, no starg gazing or other appearent CNS issues, if maybe a little bit off sometimes in some ways.


The little 'fever' Squeaker who was not growing and was terribly twisted all over, had terrible polio-like effects and was probably blind, died quite a while back, I think from his habit of insiting to keep his head against the side of his keel...and I imagine he managed to smother or to somehow cut off his own air as he slept, and was in that position when I found him to have perished one morning.


Of the five other Squeakers who were effected, one is an agile wacky perfectly centered symetrical chronic 'Star Gazer' who scoots along very well and VERY fast, backwards, on the floors, is sociable, friendlhy, and seems to get anywhere he wishes and eats on his own fairly well, even though I steady his head at least once a day for him to eat more effeciently from the Seed Bowl...and another, similar to him, if worse, who is very twisty though, and who can get around on the floor also if with rather a lot of trouble, does not eat on his own so well, so for him, we do two head-steady times a-day.

The two originally most ill then-Squeakers are nearly normal if somewhat 'off' in their way, but are rock solid, effecient eaters and HEAVY and very strong and well filled out young adults now. Neither flies with any success if each sometimes decides to try, but they do Helicopter well.
One is friendly and likes me to pick them up or give hugs, presents himself for these things too...the other, their sibling, flees from me if he thinks I am going to touch him... Lol...


Poppa Shot Wing appears to have come out of it just fine, and has re-claimed and many times a day asserts his ownership of his old Nest Box on my desk, although his current mate, "Big Girl'' and he have a floor nest in the other room.


Everyone else seems fine, and either had a mild case which passed without incident, or never seemed to have it at all.


Though I vowed not to accept any new in-coming Birds, I none the less have brought in various injured or ill ones I have found, and all of these have done well and not shown any signs of the PPMV, and these I have kept in Cages, covered on the tops, and none have been allowed to free fly or free roam...and I am not sure how to manage that phase which some of them should have prior to release.


So, there you have it, such as it is...


Love, 

Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update, Phil. I'm sorry the one little one didn't make it, but it sounds like all the others are doing well. Continued good luck and good success with them!

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

Thank you so much for the update on your flock. I was so glad to hear the the one amigo came through so well and sad that you lost the little fever guy. The others, though impaired, are living with a pretty good quality of life and sound happy and healthy despite their lingering disabilities. Pigeons don't ask much do they? A full tummy, a safe place to call home and the company of other pigeons makes for a top notch quality of life for them. A bath now and then is a lovely bonus as well. And Poppa Shot Wing is fine. That makes my day.

I've thought about you and your birds many times since those dark days and am so glad for you that you reached the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel where things turned around for the better. You took on a tremendous task caring for them. You have my admiration and gratitude for your caring and dedication in the work you do with the little feathered people. 



Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margaret, 



'Poppa Shot Wing'...his prior mate 'Silver Wing' left him when he was ill with the MPV, and she took up with an almost identical looking Male who had been here for a badly broken Leg, and was in free fly phase, a week or so out of his splint, when all this had hit.

Neither she nor he seemed to have any PMV symptoms, and anyway, they made a Nest and got on with things rather immodestly promptly...eggs and all, which I pulled.

They ( Broke-Leg and 'Silber Wing' ) have a home elsewhere now, with kind people and a good situation.

'Poppa' seemed to take it well, and when he could, he still claimed and defended their 'old' Nest Site on a Wood box on it's side, on my desk...and he STILL does this several times-a-day. 


In time, 'Poppa' elected to court 'Big Girl', who was a PPMV Survivor from three or four years ago who lives here in perpetuity...she was an OLD gal when I got her, and lord knows how she had managed at all there in the wilds with her 'frozen like a statue' ways, and with intermittant 'Star Gazing' flurrys, and not flying...

But, though appearently deaf, and sterile, she is very feminine, pretty, charming and VERY independant...so, these two now are gentle couple, preening eachother's Necks and Heads and 'Billing' and cuddleing...and right now He is just off their new Nest, for her shift to begin.

I found an Egg in the middle of the floor, four or five days ago, from likely some young confused single hen, so I gave it to Big Girl, and she accepted it very earnestly and tenderly, and has been sitting on it faithfully, with 'Poppa' doing his shifts.


I hope it hatches for them...! - It would make her very happy...and him tool I am sure. He is a fantastic Poppa, and a very devoted and caring surrogate parent for any peeper or squeaker presented to him.


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Margaret,
> 
> ..so, these two now are gentle couple, preening eachother's Necks and Heads and 'Billing' and cuddleing...and right now He is just off their new Nest, for her shift to begin.
> 
> ...


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, Dr. Doolittle, Pigeonwhisperer extraordinaire...(a.k.a. Phil), I can't tell you how glad I am that things have turned around! What's so hard in situations like yours is not being able to help "hands on!" 

We all do our best to send helpful and healing thoughts, but you had to do the "trench" work!

How was Buttercup through all this turmoil??

Wishing you and all feathered ones LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES

Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Shi, 



Thank you...


'Butter Cup' and also the two 'Dove Brothers' ( 'Mothra' and 'Dove Zilla' ) seemed to have been untouched by the PMV...too, I have a third Dove, a young adult, who was very badly Cat mauled, had maybe 28 stitches, was in terrible shape but a real Trooper...and though 'friendly' for a while when he felt so weak and hurting, he soon got TOTALLY WILD as they will ! 

And slipped out of his Cage a few times with great cunning as I was changing out his Water and Seeds, so I finally just let him be out and to free fly, and his flying was terrible.

He was also bouncing off walls and so on...so, I figured he better get the hang of it, so I let him be...and, soon he did.

Now he is a champion indoor flier, deftly swooping and speeding and veering around things and around other Birds...managing to do well and keep a full Crop amid the milieu and rough and tumble of it all...and, lately, has been seen at rest inches away from either of the other two Doves, who I have encouraged to show him kindness and acceptance...and it seems they are doing so.


He has a bad Foot, an old injury from long before I got him, but, he seems to do fine no matter. He still has quite a few New Feathers to grow..and looks, as one might say, 'ragged'...

But those little Wings! Oh boy are they strong now..!




So, anyway...golly...


Thanks for asking..!


Phil
l v


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