# Feathers Dying?



## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Hello All:

My last two YB siblings are displaying a troubling symptom. In the nest box, it looked like I was getting some infection on one birds wing joints, there were a lot of loose droppings, and one of the chicks was way undersized compared to its sibling.

Since I had a bird last year that might have had paratyphoid, I pulled these birds from the breeding loft and started medicating them with Baytril in the water. The chicks would have been just over 3 weeks at that time. They are now almost 5 weeks.

The remaining breeders in the loft have good droppings. I have cleaned it top to bottom. With one exception, the previous YB's from earlier this season all look good- no issues. That bird has very slow feather development too- but no dead feathers like these two. So- similar but different.

It appears these YB's feathers are dying after coming in. They are eating well. Poops are a little soft- except for today, where they are liquid. The birds are not lethargic, puffed, etc. But, their plumage is slow to come in, development is delayed, and the feathers don't look healthy. They are off the Baytril, and are on ACV. Today is the first day they've gotten grit (as I thought it was supposed to be with-held while on antibiotics).

I am sending their droppings out for analysis. Maybe I caused this by medicating them so young with such a strong antibiotic? I know now I should have done the dropping analysis first... foolish me. Any thoughts? Here's some views...










The wings:




























Continued...


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

*The rest...*

The feathers... a few examples.










The droppings. As I said, they are wayyy runnier right now than they have been. Stress from being handled for my photo session, maybe? I'll try and post a couple more samples from later in the day when they've settled down a bit.










As I said, hopefully I'll have some droppings analysis to report back on. Thanks!

cbx


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi cbx,

I don't have any expert advice for you, but I have seen abnormal feathers grow in birds after a major stress. Usually the next moult fixes the problem. The worst I saw was due to a period of starvation after a fledgling fell from a nest. When it fledged, his primary feathers were all bad and broke off, so he couldn't fly until the next moult.

I also have a pigeon here named `Good Boy' who had (suspected) paratyphoid at Christmas time. He grew back some very abnormal feathers on his wings which are still moulting out. They look a bit like some of the feathers in your photos, especially the second one.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi cbx,

The feathers you show appear to be what are commonly called 'blood feathers". When the feathers start to grow, they come sheathed in a kind of tube and gradually extend from the tube while the bird picks the tube away. The new feather has an artery located at its center to supply blood during the growth period which withers way and dies after the feather has grown in. If a feather breaks for any reason during the growth period it will bleed, some time spectacularly, sometime just a little, but there will be blood. 

Antibiotics impose a tremendous stress on the over all health of any bird and should never be given casually or just to be doing something. Keep them off the meds and I have little doubt you will see their over all health and appearance improve.

Please keep us informed and let us know how they develop.


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks for the responses.

My fear was that by not medicating these chicks, I might be putting them at greater risk. I suppose I should have waited until I saw significant symptoms to be sure. This raises a couple of questions for me:

At what age can/should droppings be analyzed if you're suspicious about something you think you are seeing? Is it ever appropriate to medicate young chicks, and if so, what are the circumstances that warrant it? These chicks had what appeared to be infected and/or bleeding follicles that the feathers grew from. There was either dried blood, or fresh blood on several of the feather shafts. Given this- what should I have done differently? Different meds possibly? Wait until the chicks were older, and medicate only if they survive?

But, what also factored in- when looking at my records, these chicks came from a hen that had a wing abcess when she was a chick. She recovered with no ill effects. I've only had one other chick who has ever had a wing infection or boil. It came from the same breeding pair that the hen did- so there is a familial relationship between all of the birds who have displayed this type of problem. These two breeding pairs have also have several healthy clutches, too.

I suspect that I have at least one or two birds that are possibly non-symptomatic carriers of Paratyphoid. They have been pulled from the breeder section and quarantined while I decide how to handle it. The younger pair that had these two chicks in question has received a 10-day course of Baytril, which is supposed to clear the carrier state. 

I'm curious whether anyone else has done this with success, and what risks are considered generally acceptable? Anybody willing to share any thoughts?

Thx,

cbx


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't know, cbx, but please don't beat yourself up for acting on an educated guess. Paratypoid is very serious and you can't wait for them to grow up before treating them, as it causes growth retardation and /or death.

Anyway a disease like paratyphoid could have been what caused the stress on the feathers, rather than the Baytril. It might even have been caused by both disease & treatment together.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I guess the best explanation about analyzing droppings would be to ask a question: If you felt sick and went to a doctor who told you to defecate into a can and then he started poking around in the can to try to determine what the nature of your illness was, how much faith would you have in his diagnosis?

Just like humans, birds can be asymptomatic (meaning no observable clinical signs of illness). If you medicate them you are essentially making a decision that the risk of harm and injury from your medication is less than the risk of the disease which you know to a reasonable degree of certainty infects them. Obviously if you do not know what the disease is, throwing medication at a sick bird is irresponsible. I know there are members who will disagree with me and say that if the bird appears to be sick, better to try something than do nothing. If you are willing to put that bird to the risk of death or injury as well as its sickness, you should consider that no body would ever deal with a member of their family that way. And in many cases nature takes its own course and people and birds recover on their own.

There is no substitute for professional medical advice. I know that many of our members do not have the means to pay but are willing to devote their time and whatever resources they have to the well being of birds in distress. But we must also act with appropriate caution.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hmm... gotta' admit that I haven't seen that symptom much, but I'd start researching Circovirus--it's one of the few things that causes a very close version of that (loss of primary flights by stages). I've got a picture in one of my vet books that shows a bird (pigeon or dove, can't remember which) with virtually no primary flights or major tail feathers left.

Other than that, I'd be looking at sections of the bad feathers under a microscope for other clues.

Pidgey


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Pidgey:

Thank you, an interesting thought. I would think I would be seeing more of it if it was Circo... that it would have presented itself more forcefully over the last year with more affected squabs.

The PBFD reference is the closest to the type of feather loss I've been seeing. A result of a severe systemic stress? Not quite the same... all the feather shafts show a remnant of the protective sheath, and then the root seems to die off in a tapered point, which bleeds somewhat as the feather becomes loose, and then falls off.

Sounds like Circo would be easy to identify under autopsy. If I get another affected squab, I might have to sacrifice it for testing. 

Thanks for all the thoughts.

cbx


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey cbx,

You can have the droppings tested for circovirus via something called a PCR test , instead of doing an autopsy. I've never had this done but I have read of it.

I think you're right in saying that there would be more death in the YB's if the flock was infected. On the other hand, maybe your good care for them has resulted in your flock having great immune systems & genes?.

I hope you get to the bottom of it.


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