# Need Advice: Was Bleeding & Open Sore on side of mouth



## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

I have a pigeon family in my balcony. I'm feeding them. I'm very new to this.
Adults: 2 (Parents)
Baby: 1 (close to two months old)
Egg: 1 (egg's been here since 2/5/06). 
The other egg is in pieces. the yolk is on the ground.

Questions:
1) The baby has an infection on the side of his mouth. It's not bleeding today, but his whole mouth was in blood last night. The spot keeps bubbling up (maybe he's blowing air out). Is it contagious? Oh yeah, before this started happening, the baby was sneezing often and still is right now. Is there anything I can do to help it heal? 

Here are a few pics of how the infection looks like:
http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLa...post_signin=Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Ux=1

3) Do pigeons like bathing in water? I would like to clean the baby. At what age can I start doing this if this is possible? 

Thanks for your insights on this matter.
Clement


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That looks nasty. I don't know what it could be, but one posibility is canker + injury + infection. Or injury + infection, or pox + infection.
Is there a possibility you could take the baby to a vet? A culture of the lesion would help choose the proper treatment.
I would try some natural antibiotic like colloidal silver from the health food stores. But as bad as it looks I would also add some Flagyl (Metronidazol) and Baytril.

Thank you for caring for this little guy.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ditto to Reti's comments. That's a nasty looking thing whatever it is and definitely needs to be treated.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ditto...

Might be an injury from some other Bird having attacked and pecked the Youngster's soft 'wattles' there, or started as such and got infected after...

But yea...find an experienced Bird rehabber or sympathetic Avian Veterinarian and have them examine the youngster...

What do the poops look like? 

He definitely does not look like he is feeling well...!


Thank you for wishing to help him...!

If he seems to be 'fluffy' at all, you can bring him in at night and keep him warm somehow, then put him back by day for his parents to keep feeding him and so on...

Till next...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

cpashare said:


> 3) Do pigeons like bathing in water? I would like to clean the baby. At what age can I start doing this if this is possible?
> 
> Thanks for your insights on this matter.
> Clement



Yes, pigeons love to bath. If you give him a pan, cat litter pan size, with about 2 gallons of luke warm water, he'll go to town.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cpashare said:


> his whole mouth was in blood last night. up (maybe he's blowing air out). Is it contagious?



Hi Clement,

Thank you for your help and concern over the youngster.

Yes, the bird needs some immediate intervention. Pigeons do not carry any more disease then other birds, and almost never contagious. Just make sure to wash your hands thoroughly after handling the bird, as you would handling any animal.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Clement, 


The more I think about this, the more it looks like an injury from being pecked there...and, an injury of course which has not healed yet, or has been exacerbated from being fed routinely from their parent's Beak...


There is no sibling then?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A look down the mouth (inside) would tell a lot. If it looks like it doesn't belong, it probably doesn't. You'd be looking for cheddar cheeselike buttons in the case of canker. Occasionally it invades the sinuses and can produce something like that although just looking at it, I'd be more apt to think pox. Canker is due to a flagellating protozoa called a Trichomona(d); Pox is a virus and can't be directly treated, so you just support the bird during the process. It runs its course in due time although it can occasionally be serious to the point of death. 

Neither disease is something you need to worry for yourself over, they're more of a danger to other birds. I am a little curious as to why the other eggs didn't hatch or if a predator caused a problem. The fact that the young one isn't flying around at almost two months isn't a good sign and so I'm wondering whether they (as a family) are more subject to dampness during wet weather.

Pidgey


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Additional questions*

What reasons would cause the baby not to start flying? Also, how do they learn how to fly? 

There is no siblings that I can see. 

When does the parents stop mouth feeding the baby? At what age typically? The parents are still feeding him. 

Is it OK to bath the baby now even though he still has the open sore on his mouth? Also, do I use soap on him? or just luke warm water?

How can I tell if the baby is a male or female?

Only females make eggs right? And they need a mate to do this?

I'm keeping him indoors during the night tonight. Can I train him to poop in a certain area?

Thanks again for your insights!
Clement


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Don't worry about bathing him now, he shouldn't be wet anyways now, he is sick and he might not appreciate the extra stress of the handling and bathing.
Usually a warm bath with just plain water they appreciate most. If very dirty you can use Dawn dishwashing liquid.

If the parents are still feeding him, he might be younger than two months and maybe that is the reason he doesn't fly. Besides, if he is feeling sick he won't fly anyways.
The parents might be still feeding thei babies until around five-six weeks of age, but they also should be able to eat on their own. The youngsters will beg for food until the parents stop feeding them.

At that age you cannot tell the sex of the pigeon.
Yes, only females lay eggs and they do need a mate to do that, or at least they need a male for the eggs to be fertile.

You can train him, but it is a tough and long process and many pigeon don't learn to go to a certain spot.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you can tell us what city you're in/near, we might be able to find a rehabber near you who could take a look.

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I did train Pesto my 10 year old pet Pigeon to go poopy only in her cage but it took up to 3 months and it can be done, about every 15 minutes take the bird to the place where it should go potty and soon it will pick it up. Cute baby. Can a person take a little Iodine to flush or use as a topical to clean with?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Can a person take a little Iodine to flush or use as a topical to clean with?[/QUOTE]

Yes, and it is is used. I prefer it diluted, cause it can burn really bad, but is is a great disinfectant.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Betadine is less (or just not) painful and is the hospital version that you can get at any drugstore. It's often called Povidone Iodine 10% solution. That will keep the surface disinfected but you don't want to get it in the eye for sure so you'd need to be real careful to swab it on with a Q-tip and hold the bird's beak and head firmly while doing it because they will thrash.

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

*In my case it was canker*

Not to long ago I found one of my baby birds bleeding from the mouth.

I thought his tongue had been ripped out by another set of parents that he had adopted. I found a big chunk of dried blood hanging off of the side of his beak, and I thought it was his tongue disconnected. When I tried to open his mouth blood started gushing and bubbling out, so I didn't open it again until hours later after a rejected trip to the vet. Later I discovered it was canker. I kept my appointment with the vet that I had made for the following day because I had never seen a case of canker bleed.

But that is what it was.......CANKER! She just took a Q-tip and all that dried blood came right out.

Feather


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it looks like there is an exposed flesh area at the juncture of the upper and lower mandibles in the picture. It may interfere with the structure of the nostril on that side. That would be very characteristic of pox, to destroy an entire area like that. Canker usually does its major damage on the inside of the bird along the inside of the mouth, esophageal lining and crop. Occasionally, it does other things in other places but mostly in the afore-mentioned.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, Clement,


Yea...I was thinking 'Pox' also, but for having never really seen it in person I am not familiar with it...

But the wetness and rawness cold be an injury getting scraped when the parents feed him also I think...but certainly an infected injury or lesion would look like this also...so...

I'd hope it is simply some scrape that keeps getting scraped in feeding which has a mild infection merely, secondarily...of course, rather than Pox...


Anyway, Clement...can you tell us what the poops look like?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*Looks like it was pecked at*

Someone posted that the open sore may have been caused by the parents during mouth feeding. It's starting to look that way. 
1)The baby eats or drinks, the food/water dribbles out on the open torn sore of the mouth at the corner. 
2)I also noticed when the baby tries to drink water from the bowl, he wobbles abit around the bowl feeling disoriented. I'm thinking it's because of the scab that was pecked out and blocking his view from seeing the bowl. Would you recommend cutting the scab off? If I do that, then it'll be a permanent hole in the corner of his mouth? Hard to eat/drink if it fall back out?? But, then if left that way, he have more problems like not seeing where he's going?
3) anyway of telling if male/female?
4) I just got a cage for the baby pigeon. But, while I was at the pet store, I was thinking about getting a parakeet. I didn't, but wanted to find out if the baby pigeon & parakeet would be compatible in the same cage at least until he heals? 
5)I'm in Los Angeles (Zip Code 90020). Anyone nearby that can look at the baby pigeon (slightly under 2 months old)? I don't know if I'm looking at this accurately or not and just a little concern. 

Thanks!
Clement


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*Poop*

Oh yeah, the poop comes out solid and long thin and very dark. And one more thing. I bought a sringe and Exact Hand Feeding Formula. Since it's my first time, I couldnt get the baby to open her mouth. Where should I place the food? In the front or back and small amount or fill the mouth? 
Should I let baby see the parents since I think his open sore on his mouth might be due to their mouth feeding?

Thanks again!
Clement


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cpashare said:


> Someone posted that the open sore may have been caused by the parents during mouth feeding. It's starting to look that way.
> 1)The baby eats or drinks, the food/water dribbles out on the open torn sore of the mouth at the corner.
> 2)I also noticed when the baby tries to drink water from the bowl, he wobbles abit around the bowl feeling disoriented. I'm thinking it's because of the scab that was pecked out and blocking his view from seeing the bowl. Would you recommend cutting the scab off? If I do that, then it'll be a permanent hole in the corner of his mouth? Hard to eat/drink if it fall back out?? But, then if left that way, he have more problems like not seeing where he's going?
> 3) anyway of telling if male/female?
> ...


Hi Clement, 

Here are some links for you to check out:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm#ca

http://www.pigeons.com/prd.htm

http://aav.org/vet-lookup/

About the sexing of the bird, it is very difficult to know what sex they are until they mature and begin to exhibit certain traits, even then, it isn't for sure as many members will think they have a male only to find an egg laid at a later point in time.

Have you been able to acquire either the Flagyl or Baytril, what has the bird had at this point other than supportive care. Regarding the acquisition of another bird and the sharing of the cage, it is always best to keep a bird separate from others when not doing well, ie, sick.

If you are able to find someone in your area on these links, it's best to call first and inquire about their policy regarding feral pigeons. Some won't treat, others will, but you would need to sign the bird over to them or do a self pay.
Otherwise, there may be someone close by to you who could get you the meds that were recommended for care. It would be ideal for lab work to be done, but if this is not possible, then the Baytril and Flagyl(Metronidazole) would be the way to go.

Thanks for taking the time to see that this pigeon is cared for.

fp

OK, just seeing your other post, the sore doesn't look like a parental feeding problem to me. Baby pigeons don't gape for their food, but instead insert their beak inside the parents. If you are unfamiliar, there is a possibility of causing food to go into the air sac area which would compound the problems this pigeon is having. The resource section has some excellent information and pictures on feeding baby pigeons, perhaps take a look there from the main menu.

fp


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re:*

The poop comes out solid, long thin and very dark. What does this mean?

How did the baby come in contact with Pox? From his parents? If so, why dont the parents show signs of pox as well? From looking at the pictures, does it look like the worst is over for the baby now? or is it just the beginning? 

Should I do something about the hanging scab or leave it alone? Will he be able to eat/drink without leaking in the future?

I didnt get any medicine for the baby. I'll look to get it tomorrow. 

I tried to open his mouth and he wont let me. So, I cant see inside his mouth and I'm unable to feed him. So, I'm concern about getting medicine and not being able to feed it to him as well.

Thanks!
Clement


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Clement,

That is a really nasty looking thing on that young pigeon. I can't really tell from the pictures if it is pox or not but that would be my guess. It could also be canker that ate through the corner of the beak. Until you are able to get a look inside the mouth, we won't know if there is canker or not.

Definitely keep this pigeon isolated from any and all other birds for right now. While a parakeet might not be susceptible to whatever the pigeon has, please don't even consider putting any bird with the pigeon for right now. Even if the pigeon were healthy, a pigeon and a parakeet would not make good cage mates .. too much difference in size, temperament, as well as in the type of seeds eaten.

The closest Pigeon-Talk member to you would be Andi as far as I know. Hopefully she will be on later. I would be happy to have a look at the bird if you could get it to me .. I'm in South Orange Country (Lake Forest) and probably about 50 miles from you.

You can dab diluted Betadine (one part Betadine to 9 parts water) on the area. As to medicine, were you going to try to get the bird to a vet so the proper treatment could be started?

Thank you for helping this pigeon, and please keep us posted. 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Clement,


Yea, you better get this youngster to someone who has quite a bit of experience...this is a lot more serious than it looked initially, and would seem to be some sort of ulcer or open infected sore eating away the area there.

Ideally, a culture should be made from a sample or swab to determine what the organism or type is so the appropriate medications and regimen can be started.

Poops do not sound 'right' either...

There is also a good possibility, even if they are not showing symptoms per-se, that the parents are infected and maybe just holding their own with it, but once it is deterrmined what it is, then the parents - if you wished - could be gathered up and treated also for their future to be bright.

Being a young Bird, if this is dealt with right and 'soon' he might just heal up and have that 'hole' grow back...

For now, do not mess with the scab or fiddle with it...but consider to offer tepid ACV-Water ( Raw Apple cider Vinegar at one and one half Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water) and just let his parents keep feeding him if they are still doing so.

But get him to some experienced hand such as Terry mentions knowing near you, who can identify the actual infection, so the right meds and proceedures can be decided and given to cure or address this.

Good going there helping this little one...!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

I tried calling the Wilshire Animal Hospital and they are all booked up for today. Then I called the VCA Miller Hosital and they dont treat birds. So, my only option is to ask if someone here can see my bird today (i'm off today). I'm busy the whole week with work and wont be able to bring him to the animal hospital till the weekend. 

Thanks!
Clement


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Clement,

Dr. Rosskopf is a very fine bird vet in Hawthorne:

Dr. Rosskopf, DVM, Dipl. ABVP
Avian & Dr. Woerpel, MS, DVM
Avian and Exotic Animal Hospital
4871 W. Rosecrans Ave.
Hawthorne, CA 90250
Tel: 310-679-0693

I would also be happy to take a look at the bird if you want to make the trip to Lake Forest. Give me a call at 949-584-6696 if you would like to do this, and I'll give you directions.

Terry


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*More concerns now.*

I just saw a insect crawling in and around the baby's wings. It's very thin/flat looking and translucent in nature and moves swiftly. It's dimensions are approx. 1/4" x 1/8". It comes out from hiding and runs back under the feathers. I had seen an identical one on the mother a couple of weeks back. I'm thinking it might be the same one? What is it? and is it harmful to the pigeons? How do I get rid of it without harming the baby pigeon?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Clement just called and I explained about the pigeon fly. He will get something from the pet store to zap the fly and will check to see about taking the bird to Dr. Rosskopf. I will also be trying to reach Andi to see if she can help in some way. Just remembered that Feather is in LA also.

Terry


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Hello again,
I can't tell by the picture, but I will keep working with registering to see a larger version.

There was no sore on the side of my little ones mouth. Although dried blood seemed to be in every crook and craney around the beak. Like I said it was canker, and it was treated as such. Both sets of parents, and other squabs
were also treated. I don't know what pox looks like as I have never had to deal with it, but what I can see it appears to look similar to the way my sqaub looked.

If the parents of this little bird are white and you live in CA. you might want to get them off of your balcany, and in a more secure place. Hawks are vacationing here until March, plus our own hawks are on the lookout for a nice meal and nothing is more visual than a White Winged Family.

Good luck with this, I wish I could have been more help
Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I do not have a good avian vet. I barely trust the one I am going to now.

I know there is one in Corona, recommended to me on this site. That will be the one I will change to.

Andi may know of one in L.A.

Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I just got the close up image of the wound. No my baby didn't have that sore on the side of his mouth, and had no trouble eating or drinking. Just the night that I starved him because I didn't think that he had a tongue.

I wish I could be of more help, Where abouts in L.A. do you live.

Feather


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Hi If you can call me asap*

at 310-640-3373 I will come and see the bird. My name is Andi and I am located near LAX airport please call now 

If you can't get through to that number try my cell 310-612-4826 

Terry I can drive the little guy down to you if need be...

Andi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

andinla said:


> at 310-640-3373 I will come and see the bird. My name is Andi and I am located near LAX airport please call now


Thanks, Andi! Sending you a PM with Clement's phone # .. 

Terry


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*I contacted him*

and he was already driving the bird over to someone to check him out... I told him to let us all know how the little one is doing, he said ok.... He sounds like a very concerned and caring man.....


Andi


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Baby given to rehabber*

I want to thank everyone for their excellent advice. I brought the baby pigeon to a rehabber in West LA. She confirmed that it's Canker (Trichomoniasis) and he should be ok in a few weeks. It hasnt advanced that bad according to her. She gave me two tablets to give to the parents since there's another baby on the way soon.

Any creative ways of feeding the parents the tablet without having to force feed them by hand? I prefer not to forcefeed since I dont know how to and dont want to. One idea given to me was to put it in a blueberry. Will the tablet still be effective if I break it up in pieces to let them eat it? Just curious. 

Thanks again!
Clement


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Clement, 


Might be better off sending away for some anti-Canker meds which are intended to be used in their drinking water, and that way, you can simply supply the parents with their own special water Bowl for a week or something.

Otherwise, depending on what 'tablet' you were given, generally, one does in fact have to hold them, open their Beak, and push the tablet far into their throat for them to obligeingly swallow it...and, if one is not used to doing this, it is kind of a hassle and might also make the parents wary or distrusting of you from then on, where, you are better off if they are easy with you.


Good going!
Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Clement,

Thank you so much for getting this baby the help it needed. If you don't mind, please PM me the person you took it to so I have the info for future reference.

If you are going to give a Spartrix or other canker pill, you need to get it all down at once. You can't depend on the bird eating all of it if the med is put into something else. That means get the pill down all at one time ..

You are a wonderful person for all your efforts and help. Hope you will stay with us a Pigeon-Talk.

Terry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Clement,

Thanks for working so hard to help....and thanks to everyone else who tried to help too.

Here is a previous thread that you may find helpful: It's titled: How to Give a Pigeon a Pill. Just click on the link....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7757

Good luck and thanks again,
Linda


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Terry just curious*

did you here back from Clement with the rehabber's name? I could of sworn he said it was someone from this forum he was taking it to.? I thought it was someone you had talked to.... 


thanks
Andi


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Clement did you drop the baby pigeon off or did you*

take him back home? I am so glad he is being treated... Thanks for caring for the pigeons at your home.... your so kind...

Andi


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## cpashare (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re:*

Hi Andi,

I called you yesterday evening, but you weren't around. I wanted to tell you that I had brought the baby pigeon to a rehabber in West Hills CA. I just wanted to thank you anyway for offering to take him in to care for him. Thanks!

Take care now,
Clement


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

andinla said:


> did you here back from Clement with the rehabber's name? I could of sworn he said it was someone from this forum he was taking it to.? I thought it was someone you had talked to.... thanks Andi


Hi Andi,

It is a lady named Brenda that took the bird. I need to give her a call and see if I can add her to the resources list. I have heard of her from a couple of other people, and she seems to be a get pigeon person.

Terry


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