# Goliath & Kim need some help . . .



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

. . . Trying to figure out what's going on. 

Goliath is one of Kim's regulars from her backyard flock.

Saturday evening she noticed him perched on a chair on her patio.
Other than noticing a feather sticking out from his wing, she didn't see anything amiss. She decided to check it out so took the opportunity to catch him, only because it was evening. Otherwise he flies like the wind. 

When she had him in her grip she felt something 'sticking' her. Upon further examination she found Goliath to have 4 'growths' (best description at this point) in different areas on his upper body. They range from small to very large. 

The growth around his crop area is small, however seems to have a small opening in the middle.

The growth on his right side is midsize. 

The growths on & under his left wing are the largest.
They appear to be crusty, representing possible dried blood.

Other than the growths, Goliath appears to be a healthy little pij. He shows absolutely no signs of trauma or illness.
His weight is good. Keel bone has plenty of 'meat' around it. He is alert & flies great. He eats, drinks & poops (which, by the way are awesome) like any healthy pigeon. 

We are at a loss as to what's going on with poor Goliath. 
Any thoughts are most welcome.


The following posts contain graphic pictures. 
So will put up the *WARNING* sign to *proceed with caution.*​


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Growth around crop area, view 1*









*Growth around crop area, view 2*









*Growth on right side*


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Growth on top of left wing*









*Growth under left wing*









*Droppings*


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cindy, They look like Paratyphoid tumors to me.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I've never seen any paratyphoid boils, if that's what it is, it sure looks ugly. But wouldn't a bird with such advanced paratyphoid act sick?

Reti


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Reti said:


> I've never seen any paratyphoid boils, if that's what it is, it sure looks ugly. But wouldn't a bird with such advanced paratyphoid act sick?
> 
> Reti


Not necessarily. I've had several come my way that acted fine. Birds do act fine for as long as they can.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I usually see true lameness or the inability to fly anymore from Paratyphoid boils because they're primarily in the joints. Those look like some kind of integumentary tumors. It'd probably be good to ligate one like using a bloodless castrator. That means you'd put a rubber band around the base of it to starve it of blood. A lot of such tumors tend to pull a lot of blood and grow very quickly.

The big question would be if they were malignant or not. If they are then it's only a matter of time.

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I would expect to see them more on unfeathered parts. It is possible that they are some kind of dried fatty lumps, I guess. Our Flakey had a lump on his head (though not noticeable as those!) and it was kinda like a cyst on a person.

John


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have seen this. The first time was about 25 years ago in a little feral hen that would come to eat with the outside flock. At the time, done of the vets that treated birds here, knew what it was. My friend, Deb removed it and stitched the bird up. It grew back within a years time and the bird died shorty after.
Ten years ago, or there about, someone brought me another pigeon that had the same thing. This one I took to the Avian Medical Center and both vets there said it was a Paratyphoid blood tumor.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They look like they might have a lot of dark blood in them. You'd need to try and draw some fluid out of one to know. I sent Cindy some pages from the Oncology section a bit ago. Might help, might not. I think it'd be easy to lance one and see what's in it but a vet would need to look at it under a scope to do much good.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I appreciate all the input, guys. 



Charis said:


> *I have seen this.*
> 
> The first time was about 25 years ago in a little feral hen that would come to eat with the outside flock. At the time, done of the vets that treated birds here, knew what it was. My friend, Deb removed it and stitched the bird up. It grew back within a years time and the bird died shorty after.
> Ten years ago, or there about, someone brought me another pigeon that had the same thing. This one I took to the Avian Medical Center and *both vets there said it was a Paratyphoid blood tumor.*


Given the color of these things, some type of 'blood' tumor did cross my mind. 
Was any supportive care suggested in the cases you had, Charis? 



Pidgey said:


> They look like they might have a lot of dark blood in them. You'd need to try and draw some fluid out of one to know.
> 
> * *I sent Cindy some pages from the Oncology section* a bit ago. Might help, might not.
> 
> ...


* I did receive them, Pidgey. Thanks. 

** Since neither Kim nor I are vets, I can say with confidence, *WE* won't be lancing them.

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cindy, could you email me the pictures and I will forward them on to Deb and a retired Avian vet I know?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I've never seen anything quite like those growths (thank goodness!). Good luck to Kim and Goliath and please keep us posted.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've read of metastatic changes that can occur due to a previous history of pox. I'm kinda' hoping that this isn't something like that.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> Cindy, *could you email me the pictures and I will forward them on to Deb and a retired Avian vet I know*?


Thanks, Charis. That would be great. 



TAWhatley said:


> I've never seen anything quite like those growths (thank goodness!). Good luck to Kim and Goliath and *please keep us posted.*
> Terry


Will do, Terry. 

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*This From Doctor Karl Frank*

There is no need to worry about these "temporary tumors". They will dry up and fall off and usually don't return.
Best wishes and kind regards,
Karl


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cindy,
I'm still waiting for a reply from Deb and Dr. Burke.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*This From Doctor Karl Frank*


Charis said:


> * *There is no need to worry about these "temporary tumors".*
> 
> ** *They will dry up and fall off and usually don't return.*
> 
> ...


* Did he happen to say what type of tumors they are?

** Well, that sounds encouraging. 



Charis said:


> Cindy,
> * *I'm still waiting for a reply from Deb and Dr. Burke.*


*Thanks again, Charis.



Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cindy, That's all he said in the responce. I copied it exactly. I had asked if he thought it was paratyphoid and what he thought was the best treatment.
Let's see what the other vets say.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Thank you for the information and your in-put.

I've never seen anything like this. I noticed this guy walking around and a feather sticking out for a couple days. He flys great, I thought the feather was odd but did not worry too much about it.

He was hanging out on my back patio one night so I caught him just to see what was going on with that feather and well you saw the pictures.

He flys great, his poops look good and he is not fluffed like he is sick.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

These boils look just like the 'boils' that Diesel had when I brought him in to 
Dr. Speers. According to Speers, Paratyphoid boils need to be above a joint,
as in the wings or legs...they don't appear at random on the body. A Paratyphoid boil is an outgrowth of the synovial fluid whereas the Pox Virus boil is in the skin and can be held and "moved about". In comparison, the Paratyphoid boil is far more rigid and lacks the same ease of manipulation. This, Speers demonstrated during the office examination. He diagnosed Deisel's condition as Pox Virus and when I looked it up in Clinical Avian Medicine, it did in fact describe this presentation of Pox Virus in a spreadsheet chart. These boils should dry up on their own, though if they don't self-resolve, they can become carcinogenic and require surgical removal, they have some pretty "deep roots" and can't simply be clipped off at the surface. If surgery isn't an option, then supportive care when a captive bird.

fp


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Should I put anything on these boils? What kind of supportive care? Does he need more of a certain vitamin a salt bath maybe?

or is there anything I should not do, like a salt bath?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Don't bath a bird if running a course of the Pox Virus, the exudate is highly
contagious and the virus can remain active in the environment up to six months.
Dr. Speers told me to pluck the feathers around the boils to help in keeping the
area clean and dry and to "pat" w/undiluted peroxide for the purpose of both
killing the virus and drying the boil out. Nolvasan will not kill the pox virus according to Dr. Speers who recommended cleaning the cage and dedicated
utensils w/a solution of 1/2 cup of bleach to one gallon of water. I had other
birds in the same room though Diesel was quarantined to his cage and none of the others caught the virus using Speers' recommendations. I also treated/cared for Diesel last after tending to the other birds and then used the same solution
on my hands so as not to harbor and pass the virus myself. I also chucked
the clothing I was wearing into the washing machine not to take chances.
Bump up the protein in your bird's diet, treat profilactically for canker while
allowing the pox virus to run its' course. 

The reference to providing supportive care is in the event that the boils do
not self-resolve and your bird develops Cancer. You know, I didn't think that
Diesel's would resolve on their own as they persisted for so long, and then in 
the blink of an eye, they dissappeared....just be diligent.

fp

BTW, in Clinical Avian Medicine, the boils are referred to as Epithelial ballooning degeneration and the cells which become carcinogenic are
called Bollinger bodies and can be "identified in affected epithelial cells of the integument, respiratory tract and oral cavity." Check out these pages
at Webshots:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2186031150066604705ESKWZM


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*FERAL PIGEON!! So nice to see you posting again!! WELCOME BACK!!*

I know KIPPY will appreciate the input. Those tumors(?) boils(?) whatever they are, are really something. He/she is such a nice bird! I sure hope they resolve themselves!

I will volunteer for a Vet visit, depending on how things develop...

Shi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*The Latest from Dr Frank*

Hi Charis,
Pigeon Pox usually develops around the beak, eyes, and mouth and is not as dark as this. The "temporary tumors" occur on the main body. I have never seen them around the head.
What causes these "temporary tumors" is to the best of my knowledge unknown. Kind regards,
Karl


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*The latest from Dr. Frank*


Charis said:


> Hi Charis,
> Pigeon Pox usually develops around the beak, eyes, and mouth and is not as dark as this. The "temporary tumors" occur on the main body. I have never seen them around the head.
> What causes these "temporary tumors" is to the best of my knowledge unknown.
> Kind regards,
> Karl


Again, many thanks for the update, Charis.
Please thank Dr. Frank for taking the time to evaluate this situation. 

Cindy


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> I know KIPPY will appreciate the input.


Of course I do.
I shouldn't bath him but I can clean the boils with peroxide? I don't have it in me to pluck feathers.

Goliath is doing well and admiring himself in the mirror.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

These growths/tumors look to be drying up and Goliath is doing well.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Really a handsome pigeon. I'm happy he is improving.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Wow, KIPPY! 

Are you sure that's Goliath??? Doesn't even look like the same bird you brought over to Cindy's!!

OR, are those feathers covering his tumors???

He sure looks GREAT!! 

Love, Hugs and Scritches 

Shi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

So glad you posted an updated picture of Goliath, Kim.

Such a pretty bird. Love the bits of red feathering he has. 

Cindy


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> are those feathers covering his tumors???


Tumors are still there, but they did not get any bigger or any more. I really think they are drying up and eventually (hopefully) fall off.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

KIPPY said:


> Tumors are still there, but they did not get any bigger or any more. I really think they are drying up and eventually (hopefully) fall off.


THAT'S GREAT NEWS, KIPPY!!



Give him HUGS and SCRITCHES

Shi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Goliath is a big and handsome bird and looks to be coming along very well.
When pox was sweeping through one of the flocks that I visit regularly,
there were many birds that came down w/the boils over different parts of 
the body perhaps over the span of a couple of months. Impossible to track
the progress of all the birds, though some were more obvious than others and
easier to keep an eye on. They did resolve in time, it was scary watching it
move through the flock though. It was about 6 weeks for resolution for Diesel.
Glad to see that Goliath is looking so hearty.

fp


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

The main growth was loose yesterday and fell off and the one around the crop area is gone. The one on the crop area wasn't that big so I missed it. 
The growth didn't leave much of a mark and I can see new shoots growing out. He is still doing fine.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's some kind of mean lookin' thing there, Kim! Thanks for the photos and for taking such good care of the handsome Goliath. I hope it will be smooth sailing from here on out.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so relieved things are looking good for Goliath. I have never seen something like pox, looking like that. 

There is a lot of valuable info. on this thread that should be flagged. It's not everyday that all of our members see this kind of stuff, but it is great that so much knowledge has been shared in its regards, from those who have seen it.

Thanks everyone.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm so relieved things are looking good for Goliath.
> * *I have never seen something like pox, looking like that*.
> 
> ** *There is a lot of valuable info. on this thread that should be flagged*.
> ...


* According to Dr. Frank's explanation, these aren't pox. He just calls them temporary tumors.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=284612&postcount=25

** Kim mentioned starting a 'reference' thread in the resource section, which I think is a great idea. 
I'll get the pictures & details ready & get a thread posted. 

Cindy


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Kim,

I just caught up with this thread. Want to add my thanks to you for sharing this with all of us as it is the kind of thing that really advances our knowledge. And thanks to all of you that gave input to try and diagnose it. 
I'm so glad Goliath is doing so well and that the boils/tumors fell away.

On another note, I noticed his beautiful color. He looks very much like he may carry the Ember gene that we have been talking about in the genetics group. It is a fairly new mutation and was first seen about eight years ago in a feral population. He is a very handsome bird.

Margaret


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> On another note, *I noticed his beautiful color. He looks very much like he may carry the Ember gene* that we have been talking about in the genetics group. It is a fairly new mutation and was first seen about eight years ago in a feral population. He is a very handsome bird.
> 
> Margaret


The first thing I noticed & commented on, after taking Goliath out of the carrier when Kim brought him over, was his beautiful coloring. 

After his tumor issue is over, maybe Kim can get a couple really good pictures of Goliath, focusing on his 'fancy' feathers. 

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kippy, I'm happy Goliath is doing so much better. What a great job you have done in caring for him. He is a handsome fellow. I have never heard of temporary tumors and have only seen a couple of cases of pox so this information is good to have.

Several years ago we had a songbird, a sparrow I think, that had growths like this around his face. We couldn't catch him but I am now wondering if he may have had these temporary tumors. It would be nice to know what causes them.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Kippy, I'm happy Goliath is doing so much better. What a great job you have done in caring for him. He is a handsome fellow. I have never heard of temporary tumors and have only seen a couple of cases of pox so this information is good to have.
> 
> Several years ago we had a songbird, a sparrow I think, that had growths like this around his face. We couldn't catch him but I am now wondering if he may have had these temporary tumors. It would be nice to know what causes them.


Dr. Frank said the cause is unknown. I'm thrilled there have been no complications and beautiful Goliath is on the mend. 
There are several birds in my feral flock that resemble him. There have been pigeons of his color in the Portland area for about 15 years. They really are gorgeous.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

To know that those tumors, or whatever they are/were, are disappearing is such GREAT NEWS, KIPPY!! 

Those growths were something ELSE, let me tell you. They were so BIG and to have more than one, well....YIKES 

Please give that lovely Goliath LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES for us...

_Shi, Squeaks, Dom & Gimie_


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Charis said:


> There are several birds in my feral flock that resemble him. There have been pigeons of his color in the Portland area for about 15 years. They really are gorgeous.


 HI CHARIS, I am glad that GOLIATH is on the mend Goliath looks to be a blue carring the EMBER modifior. A genetic person in your area saw this and brought to the attenchion of people working with genetics and now we have a new color modifier to work with. This was 8 years ago and there still is much more to be learned. Pictures of this that I have seen when it is modifing red are truly very striking realy beauitful.You and all those that feed and care for our feral pigeons are to be thank by those of us that have an interst in genetics as there has been more then one new genetic find come from feral flocks. .GEORGE


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

KIPPY said:


> The main growth was loose yesterday and fell off and the one around the crop area is gone. The one on the crop area wasn't that big so I missed it.
> The growth didn't leave much of a mark and I can see new shoots growing out. He is still doing fine.


Gads. I think I am speaking for everbody when I just say...ew.  Poor baby! Man that is one ugly mysterious THING.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

From what I can see, the tumor looks infolded like a peach pit and not smooth. I have seen this once in my own flock years ago. I spoke to Wendell Levi about it and if you look in his book, The Pigeon, you will see an earlier example of it. Such tumors are apparently also a form of pox - the virus has been cultured from them. 

I can't remember the name of the tumor itself, but if anyone has The Pigeon, they will see it under the section on Health, etc.

Frank M.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

bluecheck said:


> From what I can see, the tumor looks infolded like a peach pit and not smooth. I have seen this once in my own flock years ago. I spoke to Wendell Levi about it and if you look in his book, The Pigeon, you will see an earlier example of it. Such tumors are apparently also a form of pox - the virus has been cultured from them.
> 
> I can't remember the name of the tumor itself, but if anyone has The Pigeon, they will see it under the section on Health, etc.
> 
> Frank M.


I have it but I can't find any reference to it in the book.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> ** Kim mentioned starting a 'reference' thread in the resource section, which I think is a great idea.
> I'll get the pictures & details ready & get a thread posted.


I sort of missed this thread as I had nothing to contribute, but on reading through it I was thinking "I hope those photos don't get lost!" We have had so many interesting photos recently, it is well worth preserving them, particular;y as there are so few images of pigeon related "aflictions" on the 'net.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> I sort of missed this thread as I had nothing to contribute, but on reading through it I was thinking *
> "I hope those photos don't get lost!"* We have had so many interesting photos recently, it is well worth preserving them, particular;y as there are so few images of pigeon related "aflictions" on the 'net.
> 
> Cynthia


Yes, I have all the pictures. Before *& *after the tumors fell off. 
I've been meaning to post a thread in the Resource forum as a reference.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Update on Goliath*

Yesterday, Kim sent me these updated photos of Goliath.
He is doing wonderfully. Such a beautiful pij. 

*Goliath, 2008-08-09*










*Life is Great, 2008-08-09*


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that he is doing well!

I found the description of the temporary tumours in Levi's "The Pigeon", there is also the description of atypical pox in Wym Peters' "Fit to Win". I will type them both in when I find my glasses (I can just about read the screen if I squint, but can't read typescript in a book).

I don't think it would have been atypical pox as that is inclined to bleed...that is why it is also known as a "blood wart".

Cynthia


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Three cheers for Goliath!
Fascinating thread by the way. Those pictures were awesome.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Wow, he is looking good!

Thanks for the update, Cindy.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You're lookin' good, Goliath! Great job, Kim! Thank you for the photos!

Terry


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I really didn't do anything for Goliath besides food, water with added vitamins and clean cage.

I held on to him until those things fell off then kept him too long after that. I worry about letting these guys too much. The weather has to be perfect and no holiday releases where there maybe loud noises or gun fire. 

I'm terrible I agree. He did get out of the cage last week because I didn't latch the cage right. He did come back and went in the cage himself. 

Goliath is in a bigger cage now with Tripp, maybe they can hook up and fly off together. 



> I don't think it would have been atypical pox as that is inclined to bleed


No blood except for when I first caught him, so I probably caused that. They just dried up and fell off. Drinking eating all normal and droppings good the whole time.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, suggestions and information. I had no clue what to do, never seen anything like it.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hey, Goliath...YOU DA PIJ!!

Really lookin' GOOD!!

Sending you Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and the gang


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## Mighty Heart (Aug 29, 2008)

*Tumors on pigeons*

Yes..your photos match exactly what I see here. The tumor on the bird's leg opened up today and a brown, puss & fluid mixture shot out of it. I am scared of this situation. What the heck is paratyphoid? Is it treatable? Does is spread? Is it airborn? Should I medicate the water that the whole flock drinks from or remove the water all together? Help....I love so many of these birds. I have about 100 in my flock and probably 1/4 of them sit in my lap daily....


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