# Impacted/Sour Crop



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I found Pantera just a bit ago sitting on his water bowl with his head hanging down. Obviously something was seriously wrong. I picked him up and found that his crop was totally impacted with peanuts. A couple of days ago I had mixed some seed that contained a lot of safflower, sunflower, and small raw peanuts in with the regular seed mix for all the birds as a treat. Apparently Pantera gorged on the peanuts.

I've "milked" his crop and gotten all the smelly, slimy undigested peanuts out and given him 10 cc of baking soda water to try and get the crop going in the right direction again. Any other suggestions as to treatment?

I'm very concerned for him and not at all sure that he is going to make it at this point. I've had him for more than 5 years, and he was an adult when I got him, and I don't know how old he may actually be.

Pantera's story may be found here for any that are interested.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


What I usually do in similar instances ( once having Milked out any whole Seeds ) is to flush the Crop with five or six rounds of Saline Solution, Tubing it in, Tubing it out...ACV-Water is probably just as good for this.

Then, I use 'Medistatin', and, some ACV-Water...totalling about 4 mLs or so, and, have a Clean Fresh Towel in an Observation Cage, wait and see.

Dehydration is often the critical problem at this phase, if the Crop was so stopped up with slime or mucous to let Liquids pass...so, the sluicing and suctioning out with the Saline and or ACV-Water or each in turn, aids in this aspect, to remove the slime or sludge or mucous.

Of course, Canker, Worms, Virus, ingestion of a foreign Object, and some sorts of Bacterial issues can underlie a static Crop, as can contusion from flying mis-hap.

Are there any poops or urates presently being made?

And, if there have been, can you post an image?



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Terry, if you can manage, I would also give him 10cc of LRS, SC, q12h for the next few days, outside of what you have done, and Phil suggestions, and starting the Nystatin (watch the ACV too soon after the baking soda). I would also probably start a 5-7 day course of Baytril as well.

Good luck,

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


Seems to me...if the only real deal here with this is merely that the Pigeon ate too many Pea Nuts and over-stuffed themselves, there should not be any misery or protracted issues, especially once their Crop has veen evacuated by the 'Milking'.


Hence, I would incline toward administering the repetitions of Sluicing a half dozen times or more, with tepid Saline, and massaging the lower area of the Crop with each Sluicing, in order to remove as much possible Mucous or sludge or whatever else, using a Catheter which has holes at the end and a little ways up from the end also, so as not to have any suction lock.


With the info so far, I would be concerned there may be some prior or on-going issue which the diamater of the Pea Nuts has caused to become a deal-breaker...whether Canker, Candida, foreign Object related, or Bacterial ( or contusion from flying mis-hap ).


Waiting for those poop/urate images and report!


Love!


Phil
Lv


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Terry,
I don't have an expert opinion like Phil and Karyn, but because of my most recent rescue, a baby with canker, I've been reading up on canker today and have a lot of the info fresh in my mind. If you agree with Dr Colin walker, he says 90% of sour crop is caused by canker nodules at the base of the crop, so treat for canker immediately.

Anyway I hope it goes well. He could also be elderly, and it sounds like you've given Pantera a fantastic life he wouldn't have had without you. I hope he pulls through for you!


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Metoclopramide (aka Reglan) is used to clear crop stasis, if the vet will supply it.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella,


Good mentions...

We need more info and ideally images of recent/freshest poopss/urates and info on how those have been for the last six hours or so, on this one, in order to determine what ought to follow the initial procedures of cleaning out the Crop.

If Liquids have been passing, and are passing, and the Pigeon is not dehydrated, then indeed Medicines for suspected illness such as Canker or Antibiotics, or both, can be safely administered ( and will pass to be assimilated ).

If the Crop has not been passing Liquids, and the Pigeon is dehydrated, then, once the Crop is cleaned out well, one would best administer Medistatin or Nystatin and some ( just some ) Electrolyte Water used to mix it with, in hopes of ameliorating/lessening a Candida related obturation, so that Liquids will pass...and, then, once passing initial Liquids/Medistatin Solution, continueing to re-Hydrate the Bird for another 12 hours or more, with additional Medistatin, where, if Canker is suspected, to begin the anti-Canker Meds in say 12 or 14 gours, once one has re-hydrated them enough.


Many variations of this general syndrome...


Usually when I get these in, it is Canker and Candida both, and, often enough, virtually nothing is able to pass as-is, and the Bird is typically very dehydrated and in very bad shape...hence the sequence of procedures.


But, aside from discussing this generally...for this instance, we need more info.

Maybe the Crop is able to pass Liquids already, which would be nice, of course!


Phil
Lv


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Metoclopramide (aka Reglan) is used to clear crop stasis, if the vet will supply it.



Indeed...good reminder John, an anti-Inflammitory is good to add if one has it...orally, or, injectible even better.


I tend to forget about that since I rarely have any on Hand...but I keep meaning to stock up.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, I agree with Phil, good mention about the canker .

Karyn


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps Karyn and Phil! I appreciate reading threads about crop issues, and what you guys have to say about treating it. Except, of course, it makes me sad to think of a poor little guy, like Terry's Pantera, being sick with crop stasis

John D, thanks for mentioning metoclopramide...I just wiki'd it and it seems to be an anti-nausea drug and dopamine inhibitor. How interesting thats it good for crop stasis too.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Terry,
> I don't have an expert opinion like Phil and Karyn, but because of my most recent rescue, a baby with canker, I've been reading up on canker today and have a lot of the info fresh in my mind. If you agree with Dr Colin walker, he says 90% of sour crop is caused by canker nodules at the base of the crop, so treat for canker immediately.
> 
> Anyway I hope it goes well. He could also be elderly, and it sounds like you've given Pantera a fantastic life he wouldn't have had without you. I hope he pulls through for you!



He ate too many peanuts, impacting his crop.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any of various Antit-Inflammitories can be helpful in Crop Stasis, but would not be necessarily the only Medicine to use of course.

Injectible Anti-Inflammitories would be the most useful of all, since a Static Crop being initially deal with, if unable to pass Liquids, will of course have no way to benifit from an Oral administration of an anti-Inflammitory.


----------



## piegonsrock (Aug 14, 2009)

one method we use to fix a crop bound pigeon is we stuck our male pmeraninan pouter in an oatmeal can so he was upright so the food would go down. This method did take a few days but did work.If your pigeon does pull through give him small quantities of food and water so he doesn't relspe


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> He ate too many peanuts, impacting his crop.




It could indeed be that simple!


None the less, the occasion invites discussion respecting various causes, and, how those causes may be addresed.

Should we insist not to discuss these things Charis, since you already know the entire answer here for this? And so adroitly provide it? Case Closed?


I personally never include Peanuts in any of the Pigeon's foods/feeds here, and I never will.


The ones I get in who have static Crops, usualy it is contusion from flight mis-haps, or, inflammitory process from Candida or Bacterial or Canker infection, or ingestion of foreign object which is lodged in the Crop having led to one or more of the preceding...or Pellet Gun perforation of the Crop, ditto.


Since we have heard nothing more from Terry, we have nothing more to go on than the original Post.


Looking forward to hearing more from Terry...


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I am very sorry to report that Pantera died during the night last night. I did kinda know that this was going to happen but was hoping for a better outcome.

For all of us who do this rescue/rehab stuff, you do know what the likely outcome will be once you either receive the bird and figure out what's going on or if it's one of yours and realize you've got a serious problem .. we all pretty much know based on the condition of the bird what is likely to happen.

I knew that Pantera was weak but also knew that I had to clear the crop .. I did .. gave the baking soda water .. sat with Pantera for two hours and knew that he was not going to make the night and he didn't.

Thank you all for helping here in this thread. I am so very sorry to have lost Pantera, but I did.

Terry


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree Phil, Maybe peanuts caused impaction, or it was the other way around, where a slow crop (for other reasons) prevented Pantera from digesting the peanuts and other seeds in the crop? I don't feed pigeons peanuts, but there are plenty of reports of pigeons eating raw peanuts safely on this forum. I guess all I'm saying is respect Charis and her instincts but I agree that she couldn't possibly and irrefutably know what caused this.

Anyway this kind of discussion is invaluable for learners like me and I appreciate it a lot, especially since I have a little one here in my care who is very ill with canker. What I learn from you guys could save his little life if his crop stops working. So I am really grateful for the discussion and I hope the best for Terry's Pantera.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

And, yes .. Pantera gorged on peanuts. They totally impacted his crop. I will never, ever again mix the seed with the peanuts in it with what I feed the pigeons. Case of thinking I was giving a treat and managed to kill one of my birds by doing so.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Peanuts would not kill them, unless there was already a serious on-going problem which was not noticed.

They can over-gorge, and, get away with it, whether we clear the Crop or not, if all else is well with them.

So, I do not think this Pigeon died from one over-gorging session...unless the over-gorging was quite a few days prior, a week or mnore prior...and if only from that day or a day or two prior, should not have been lethal, but, merely uncomfortable and inconvenient is all...passing on it's own, being thrown up, or having help to clear it.

Anyway, Bella, the Crop does not 'digest' Foods...it stores and hydrates them and passes them on to the Stomach, where, they are subjected to strong Acids and Enzymys and so on, to break down some of the components, to then be masticated by the Gizzard, where, as a slurry, the foods are passed on to the Intestines for assimilation of nutrients, fermentation, further enzymes breaking things down, etc.

'Digestion' is kind of a vague term, but it is usually associated with the Stomach and with the processes of Acids breaking down the constituant components of the foods.

Crops are Alcaline, rather than Acid, as far as their conditions.

The Crop is best thought of as being a section or lower part of the Esophagus which is widened a good deal to act as a temporary Storage 'Bag', and in the case of Granivores, to hydrate the Seeds initially, as well...


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks again for the info Phil. Peanuts are pretty big as far as what pigeons will eat; maybe even verging on the biggest thing they will try to swallow compared to regular seeds (that I know of). So if there is a problem with the crop already, perhaps its will show up with these bigger food items, rather than , say, small seeds like millet? And isn't that why you and Karyn always tell me to feed a sick pigeon small seeds, so there is a better chance of them being passed through a crop that has a problem?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks again for the info Phil. Peanuts are pretty big as far as what pigeons will eat; maybe even verging on the biggest thing they will try to swallow compared to regular seeds (that I know of). So if there is a problem with the crop already, perhaps its will show up with these bigger food items, rather than , say, small seeds like millet? And isn't that why you and Karyn always tell me to feed a sick pigeon small seeds, so there is a better chance of them being passed through a crop that has a problem?



Instances of possible Worms, Canker or other conditions which can effect the Proventriculus...yes, Liquid Diet only if suspecting possible severe issues, or, small Whole Seeds only at most/largest...till resolved.


Wild Pigeons here eat fallen Olives, which are like half of your Thumb in size...maybe even half your Big Toe in size...Olives IN the Husk...they poop out what at first glance looks like dark Blood but it is dye from the Olive Husks...really a deep Purple.

These Olives are like over an inch long and 3/4rs or 7/8ths of an inch in diameter.

They get away with it somehow! Healthy, elastic Proventriculises!!!

Amazing...


I am against Peanuts because Pigeons regard it as a large Seed, and, one 'peck' is equal to six or seven pecks for smaller Seeds, so instinctively they are excited by the effeciency of the prospect...and, they tend to over do it, also, and or get into contentions with eachother over them, and, one invites possible troubles with aflotoxins, and on and on, so I just long ago said "No Thanks" and I stayed away from ever feeding them Peanuts of any sort whatever.


Average larger type dried Pea will swell up larger than the usual small Peanut, for that matter...and Peanuts do not really swell much when hydrated, or at least nothing like dried Peas do...or like Corn can...


So, it is not so much their size in the Crop which concerns me...but, the other factors.


Some years ago several of my inside pre-release or non-release-able Birds gorged themselves on the small Black Oil Sunflower Seeds.

I did not know it at the time, but, realized some days later, these Birds had Crops like Tennis Balls, and, I put them into individual Isolation Cages, to observe and lost all three of them within a day.

I think it was Canker, as the only excretions were some small dabs of Yellow flat Paint-Like Urates.

Why they would have over-eaten like that, electing the Black Oil Seeds out of the Seed Mix, I do not know.

No one ever did that before, and, no one has done it since.



One hard part about Keeping Birds, is you glance around a few times a day, and, everyone looks fine...yet, some might not be fine...they can appear to be just resting like usual, prim and relaxed, but actually be in serious troubles.

Thats how these were, nothing to alert you, unless you literally picked them up to find they were over stuffed, weak, not flying but just sitting on a Shelf or Ledge or other, and definitely not doing well.


Wild Birds one can pretty well tell in an instant if something is wrong.


So much easier...


Phil
Lv


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil,

Oh, that is interesting to me, I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions? With the the black sunflower seeds, is there something wrong with them as opposed to the striped ones? My new seed mix has black sunflower seeds in it, and I am not sure if its a bad thing. Anyway, I'm sorry that you lost those 3 pigeons to them

I know what you mean about peanuts- I don't feed them to my wild flock because they can cause pigeon aspergillus if they get moist. But my guys are wild and I would think its less of an issue with a pet, where the peanuts are fresh?

I've been noticing some weird cravings in my wild flock too- some really crave protein plus fat, and will steal the meat from other birds that I feed, who are insectivores. And some really crave sunflower seeds. I expect its because of deficiencies and illness, or stress from raising young. I can see how some of them would gorge on something that they feel they need and it could cause harm.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella,


The 'Black Oil' Sunflower Seeds are very small...


The 'Striped' kinds are several times larger, HUGE even by comparison.

I never feed the 'Striped' kinds.


Your Wild Pigeons are probably craving Salt. Salt is often hard to find in Nature - get a Salt Lick Block and break it up and make powder and put the Powder in little piles on a close weave piece of heavy Cloth so they can peck it.

Also, sometimes they crave B complex Vitamins - so any people version in the Capsule, open the Capsule and add the contents to Seeds which you have very lightly 'glistened' with fresh Olive Oil...these then must be eaten that day, and it will go rancid if left sitting.

I crave 'meats' when I am low on Salt and low on B Vitamins.

I image it is the same with Granivores.


What happened in my situation with those three deaths - I had to leave Town for a week, and, luckily I had only one Convelescent Pigeon.

I had them in a Cage in the free fly free roam area, and, had their Water-Meds in a dedicated labelled Bottle next to their Cage.

The person who was to look in on the Birds each day had clear instructions and was shown the set up prior.

First day they come in, like a complete idiot, they open the Cage, and, THEN turn to reach for and open the Medicine Water Bottle, and, of course, the sick Pigeon immediately flew out and was impossible to distinguish from the dozens of similar looking ones. The still sick but mostly recovered PIgeon was indeed vital and strong at this point and able to appear normal - but, they were not over it yet.

Week later I get home, and am told what had happened.

This was a Wild Pigeon who had a really weird kind of Canker and I think some Bacterial thing also, acting in combination...they had had a impacted Crop and it had been very hard to treat, but, they were on the home stretch when accidently let out.

Well, I could not tell which Bird they were by then, either.

So, a few weeks later, a month later, I start seeing the same syndrome starting up among a few of the pre-release free roam ones, they looked fine but were just sitting or laying normally on Shelves or whatever, and one had to pick them up to tell...so, I start putting the afflicted into individual Cages out in the Shop, but, some of the less seriously afflicted were too hard to spot or I just could not tell who was coming down with it.

The small Sunflower Seeds was an odd aspect of this - those Seeds were something I added to the Seed Mix, yet, the three who died had gorged themselves on those Seeds only...so, probably craving something they associated or imagined with those Seeds.

They threw some up, I milked some out, etc, but lost them anyway. They were not passing anything and had not been for days I think - observation cage showed only dabs of yellow Urates, no fecal matter...no Bile.

Those Three had been flying and goofing around the day before, and everyone was on a flock treatment via the Gallon Waterers and so on, but, it acted in a way where whatever it's slow gains or progress, it would become lethal very fast once advanced enough, and that transition was sudden.

Eeeeeeeesh...

It kept showing up for another year or so before I finally got it eliminated.


The Striped Sunflower Seeds are often part of various general purpose Wild Bird Seed mixes, and I stay away from those Striped Sunflower Seeds, and individually remove them if need be when I find them in any Seed Mixes I buy.


I just do this since I always have Birds in progress or in post-convelescence free fly who have 'iffy' conditions where I do not want to risk them eating large Seeds...it is just how I do things.


I want to reduce potential liabilities or factors which can interfere with recoveries or cause problems for the recovered who may have scarifications of their passageways which take time to ammend.


Phil
Lv


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Phil,
I'm glad you finally eliminated whatever it was; it sounded very nasty. 

Also, I appreciate hearing your feedback regarding feed for the wild pigeons, and Terry's too, about the peanuts. I'll see what I can do about providing salt too. 

Like Terry, I've been having to experiment with food, as the cost of wild bird seed is so high and lately what they've supplied me has an increasingly huge portion of husked wheat that the birds don't eat. So I've been trying out a 15% protein poultry grain mix that is half the cost of wild bird seed, and has some additives such as grit and small pellets. I'm not 100% happy with this either, as it doesn't have the really small seeds in it. And the pellets, although small, are still not as small as I'd like. The next thing I'll try out is some baby Turkey pellets that my local produce store has. The person selling them says the local pigeon lofts use them, but unfortunately they have something mixed in them for coccidia. I don't like the sound of that !

Anyway thanks for the discussion. Its great learning form you guys

.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

As long as the 'Pellets' are of a sort where they dissolve easily in Water, then I doubt any Bird could get into trouble with them.

But yes, avoid pre-medicated Feeds, whatever the sort they are.

Pigeons and Doves do not tend to like Wheat.

If you have ever chewed thoroughly a Teaspoon or so of it, you will find out why, or why I think they prefer to avoid it, anyway.

Great taste! definitely nourishing! But when masticated, by our own thorough chewing or by a Bird's Gizzard, it becomes like Chewing Gum, a viscious tenacious 'wad' of elastic mass ( like in Bread Making! ) ...and I think they do not like how that 'feels' inside...I think they can tell, and, they do not like it.

That would not bother me, as for raw Wheat being a Food I can chew and swallow and enjoy, but, if one has a Gizzard doing the Mastication, it likely feels funny or uncomfortable or worrysome or something, so, they prefer to avoid it.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Phil,

My local wild pigeons are` funny' about wheat too. They seem to gobble down the cracked wheat in the new poultry grain mix I have here just fine, but they won't touch the husked wheat in a wild bird seed mix. The husk makes it a bit spikey on the ends and I can see what you mean about some foods possibly not feeling `right' in the crop and/or gizzard.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It could easily have been the peanuts, rather than some other problem that caused the crop not to empty. If the bird gorged on enough peanuts to compact the crop, it is possible that they just couldn't pass through. It certainly wouldn't be impossible for this to happen. I have heard of peanuts blocking a crop before. It happens. I only give mine chopped peanuts. Much safer.
Terry, I'm so sorry this happened, and that you lost the bird.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes Jay, but Terry got the Crop emptied...

If all else was in good shape, that ought to have solved the trouble.

Granted, it is possible that an over-stuffed Crop might have trouble passing contents...unless this condition were present for quite a few days, it should be alleviated with the Crop being emptied by the Care Giver.

Possibly the Pigeon had over-stuffed themselves several days prior, and, in the mean time, had gotten nasty toxins and feremtation related infections or Bacterial problems leading to a toxic shock syndrome.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Yes Jay, but Terry got the Crop emptied...
> 
> If all else was in good shape, that ought to have solved the trouble.
> 
> ...


*

*

It may have been that way for a while before being noticed, and caused an infection, but if that be the case, then it would have been being gorged with the peanuts that caused it.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I missed the part where Pantera passed away I am so sorry Terry! 

These kinds of crop problems scare me and I don't feel equipped to deal with them. So thanks everyone for the lengthy discussion about it.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> It may have been that way for a while before being noticed, and caused an infection, but if that be the case, then it would have been being gorged with the peanuts that caused it.




...sigh...


Eye roll...


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> ...sigh...
> 
> 
> Eye roll...



DITTO!.....


----------

