# Moving to a new house



## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

I have a relatively new loft with 12 young birds that have been flying since the spring. Some are younger and only flying since mid summer.

I have purchased a new property about 50 miles away and I want to take my birds and my lofts with me to our new house.

I have read that the military successfully move lofts all over the place and that homing pigeons return to their loft no matter where they are moved to.

I am wondering if any one on this forum has successfully moved to a new location and if so if they would mind sharing their insights into how to maximize the success of such a move. I really don't want to turn all my young birds into prisoners.

Cheers!


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Pigeons when raised at a place feel it as their home and always try to come back when they fly, once i moved with my 4 pigeons into a new home and when these pigeons were released they all went staright to our old place


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

Susquatch said:


> I have a relatively new loft with 12 young birds that have been flying since the spring. Some are younger and only flying since mid summer.
> 
> I have purchased a new property about 50 miles away and I want to take my birds and my lofts with me to our new house.
> 
> ...


Its very hit and miss when relocating , mostly miss , its is possible to break birds into a new loft at a new location but you will innevitably lose a fair proportion .When i relocated 400 miles i took 50 birds with me managing to break in 20 of them and even this raised a question about the 20 that did stay are they any good as they didnt home as the other 30 odd did.Although some of the 20 have turned out some fine winning offspring. There are more than one or two methods on breaking birds into a new location and people have different ideas on how to do this .My method was to buy an aviary and let them just sit in it all day long for roughly 3 to 4 months , letting a couple of hens or cocks out at a time (Not your entire flock ), or letting them lay eggs then letting either the cock or the hen out, again not together.
Sometimes it worked other times the birds were gone not to be seen again with the odd exception of one or two of them showing up a day or two later.


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

jeff houghton said:


> My method was to buy an aviary and let them just sit in it all day long for roughly 3 to 4 months , letting a couple of hens or cocks out at a time (Not your entire flock ), or letting them lay eggs then letting either the cock or the hen out, again not together.


Your method suggests that you have a new loft/aviary. The military info I found elsewhere indicated pretty clearly that the trick is to move the loft with the birds. They love their loft, not the location.

I am thinking I might clip a few primary flight feathers or soap the birds down so they cannot fly too strongly and only let one out at a time. I could also do as you suggest and keep them prisoner for a few months. It is hawk season here anyway and even now they have not flown for a month. My current home is on a falcon migration route and we always have a dozen sharpshins or so going through.

My son will be living at my old house for a year or two. I may set up a trap of some kind so any birds that do return to their old home can be returned to the new one. I have no idea how to do this given that their loft will be gone.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

IMO, if you value the birds, don't risk trying to resettle them. If you are willing to accept the fact that you will more than likely lose them, then give it a shot!


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

Susquatch said:


> Your method suggests that you have a new loft/aviary. The military info I found elsewhere indicated pretty clearly that the trick is to move the loft with the birds. They love their loft, not the location.
> 
> I am thinking I might clip a few primary flight feathers or soap the birds down so they cannot fly too strongly and only let one out at a time. I could also do as you suggest and keep them prisoner for a few months. It is hawk season here anyway and even now they have not flown for a month. My current home is on a falcon migration route and we always have a dozen sharpshins or so going through.
> 
> My son will be living at my old house for a year or two. I may set up a trap of some kind so any birds that do return to their old home can be returned to the new one. I have no idea how to do this given that their loft will be gone.


I took my old loft with me , in fact ive moved my old loft 3 times now in total.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Susquatch...I have moved my lofts & birds to 2 other locations that are 6 miles apart...I have RACED these same OLD birds in OB races in 3 different locations,and they have done well...Don`t let anyone tell you it can`t be done....One of the prime reasons is,you move your lofts to the new land..That helps...The other reason is,you have your birds mated up,with at least eggs 14 to 15 days old,and about ready to hatch,OR,have newly hatched babies in the nest....Then you can OPEN the window,and let them come out...Ofcourse,if the hens are sitting,only the cocks will go out,and visa versa...Once they have been out,and the babies are weaned,at 28/30 days old,the old birds should want to stay,and they probally have the 2nd round of eggs in the nest also.....This is the ONLY way I know it can be done...My birds even have to fly OVER the ORIGINAL property where they were born,to get home from a race,and I don`t have any trouble with any of them....Have 6 pair born in 2006/07/08...And I`ll be racing them again in 2013 OB`s.....Alamo


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

*Update!!!!*

I have been bad. I have quite a bit of new info but just have not had time to do an update for the benefit of other members and readers.

I waited about 5 months after moving to fly my birds. In the interim, I built some nice, but small, outdoor aviaries so they see around the area. A few of my birds also raised young or were sitting on eggs. So I figured it was time.

I let them all go at once, and immediately totally regretted it. All the birds I had raised at my old home left. That included the hens sitting on eggs. They heard the others fly away and could not resist the call of the wind in their feathers too.

They were all gone for about 4 hours, while I flogged myself for being an idiot.

However, one by one they started to come back. My son who lives close to my previous home also called and said that there were three of them at my old house. His description told me exactly which ones they were. He tried to catch them but they flew away. The next day, two of those three had also returned. After approximately a week, about 3 out of every 4 birds had returned.

I started releasing them every day and the released birds returned the same day but very few flew together. They seemed to prefer to fly alone. But over the course of next month, they slowly regained their preference for flying in formation.

The bad news - I lost 25% of my birds, and all the eggs failed to hatch because they had been abandoned for too long. 

The good news - 75% of my birds returned to their new home, and all my squeakers survived.

Since that time, my flock was slowly rebuilt, and I now have 20 flying birds again. They return home almost immediately unless a falcon is in the area.

Summary - I am happy with a 75% success ratio. It isn't perfect, but it is better than making all your birds prisoners for life.

Cheers!


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

Susquatch, This is most interesting and encouraging news!!

I have a breeding pair from another village that has limited flying experience from their 'hatch loft'. I also have a few weaned squeakers with NO flying experience from the same 'hatch loft'. 

I am hoping the mated pair will stay, but also know the odds are not great. So it is interesting to hear what has gone on for you. The 'hatch loft' is still there with other birds, so it's a real toss up. But I am hoping the unflighted birds stay with me. 

My biggest concern is if I let the breeded pair go when the new flyers go, that they will take them back (leading them) to the 'hatch loft'. I have greatly considered waiting til the breeding pair have eggs before letting them go -- one at a time, to see if they will stay here. Meanwhile when my new birds can fly, I am thinking I will lock down the breeding pair in the roost and let the new birds figure things out.

Glad you got some time in for an update to us!!


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

In my "limited" experience as a fellow who has only had pigeons a few years now, you don't need to worry about your unflown squeakers. When they are ready to fly they will not know anything about their birth loft. Your only worries will be falcons and strong wings. I lost two young birds to the latter this past winter. Basically, they hung around the loft while the others flew, but when they went, they disappeared and never came back. Its a risk you just have to accept. These two were the exception, most will stay home but will usually take a fair bit longer to come home than the rest of the flock. They will also have a harder time landing on the loft because they get going too fast and don't know how to slow down to land.

Another observation of mine is that the older birds NEVER lead the younger birds anywhere. The younger birds cannot keep up with them and furthermore, their instincts to stick together in a flock in flight take quite a while to kick in.

In some ways you are lucky with the older birds. If they do leave, they will go to their birth loft and you can get them back.

If I were you, since you have the ability to lock them up individually, I would only let one of each mated pair fly at a time. Its actually a racer's trick that makes them want to come home faster than they would otherwise. I am virtually certain they will tend to prefer their new mate over any other loft. This attraction will get stronger with time too. Some of my older mated birds won't even leave the loft area if their mate isn't with them. They circle back right away and bust through my trap. Some want to get back to their mate so badly they literally fly through the trap instead of walking through it. 

One other thought. The longer they live in their new loft the stronger their attraction to it will be. And remember, always fly them BEFORE they eat when their food dish is empty.

It is hard on the nerves at first. My thoughts are with you.

Best of luck eh! 

Cheers!


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

Susquatch said:


> Another observation of mine is that the older birds NEVER lead the younger birds anywhere. The younger birds cannot keep up with them and furthermore, their instincts to stick together in a flock in flight take quite a while to kick in.
> 
> Best of luck eh!
> 
> Cheers!


Nice to hear your observations on the younger birds flying with with older ones. With mine so close in age, do you think that applies? Mine I am guessing are somewhere around 4 months as they are just starting to mate up, can't believe they are older than 6 months for the oldest birds, the youngest can't fly yet... PLEASE Share your thoughts on this one, I'm really curious.
Yes, here in Montana we do have the hawks, so I know I am going to lose some and have already accepted that. 
The ones doing the mating dance are first time maters. They are just that young.  So hopefully that will help. Yes racing to the mate is a great tactic and one I have thought would be good to use (thus I have banded the birds so I know who to toss and who not to toss).
Flying thru the trap huh? Interesting, I had wondered if they would do that, but you are the first verification I have heard about this.
I've cut the feed back here lately. 10 mins 2x /day. However, if the youngest bird is still eating I give him another min or two. Yesterday everyone but him had walked off... So it was easy enough. One more day and I think we will have everyone down to 10 mins.
I've been told to let them go anywhere from 1 to 3 days without food the first time or two so they will learn to truly come back in when called. Thoughts?


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

I really don't think their age matters. What matters is their flying experience. Birds that have experience fly in a flock. Birds with low experience fly alone for a half dozen flights or more. Birds with experience are faster and more agile. Birds without experience spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to land - usually somewhere other than on your loft.

A big loft roof helps at this stage (but hurts at later stages), as well as a good sized landing platform, and good approaches without a lot of trees in the way. But I usually find first time flyers land in a tree or on a powerline or another roof first and then spend a day or two trying to work up the courage to fly to the loft.

I assume they are trap trained for the trap on your loft. If not, don't even think about flying them.

I don't believe going without food that long is a good idea. If they are starving hungry, they will eat whatever they can find wherever they are - leaves, bird poop, etc. As a result they will be less inclined to go home. So a light meal with no flight, then fly them just before the next full feeding. I suppose you could skip the meal instead of making it a light one, but I don't recommend it. Frankly, they may not make it back to the loft for several days and I don't want my young birds going without food that long.

Yes, this is terrifying. Hawks just wait for opportunities like this. And you will lose some at this stage. But that's just the way it is. The biggest mistake I have made in this arena is trying to train the young birds to come and feed from my hand. I get too attached to them this way and when I lose them I feel a tremendous loss. It would be better if they were just another bird that didn't come home.....

Another thing I do different is my feed volume. I don't give them enough to last a certain amount of time. Instead I determine the appropriate volume and that's what they get 2x a day no matter how long it takes them to eat it.

I don't toss my birds either. I just open the side of the aviary which is hinged along the entire front bottom edge. So the whole side just flops down. After my birds leave, I just close it back up and then slide it sideways a foot so the trap is exposed on the outside instead of the inside of the aviary. The entire aviary sits on the landing platform. That way, they are used to the platform and know where the trap is. If I want, I can even put a few "attractor" birds inside the aviary to encourage a young bird to come back to the loft.

Let me just end by saying that I am no expert. I have only had birds about 3 years now. I just understand how you feel and why because these feelings are very recent memories for me. I distinctly remember my first three birds, then losing one to disease, and being terrified of losing either of the two I had left....... I might add that a mistake I made at that time was waiting too long to fly them for fear of losing them. When they did fly, they were both bullets.

Cheers, and please ask any questions you want.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

Susquatch said:


> I really don't think their age matters. What matters is their flying experience. Birds that have experience fly in a flock. Birds with low experience fly alone for a half dozen flights or more. Birds with experience are faster and more agile. Birds without experience spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to land - usually somewhere other than on your loft.
> 
> ^^^^ Great insight here. Things I have never heard in all my reading.
> 
> ...


Really appreciate your time and thoughts. I am really looking forward to them being ready to get their first flights in. Very exciting times!!


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

Silver Wings said:


> We've trained within the loft as I'm not certain the birds could 'crash' well from the landing platform. HOWEVER, I see that the most 'mature' bird of the 4 young ones is really trying to fly. The other 3 are flapping good trying to understand. "Red" (color of leg band) just understands a little more right now. I'm thinking we should be on that landing board from a 'basket' and working to get back into the bobs in the next day or so. Once they are leaving the basket (no freedom) and going thru the bobs back in. I think the next step I am looking to do is 'bucket' (wash) the birds and let them sit out on the landing board with me right there. This will give them freedom without the ability to take off just yet. Once they go through the bobs this way then I think we are willing to do some free flying to get them routing. Thoughts??!


My "opinion" is that trap training inside the loft is a good idea but is not a substitute for trap training from outside to inside the loft. I think your "basket" concept is like a smaller version of my flight aviary. Mine is just a 3ft wide x 1.5ft high x 2ft deep wire box made of rabbit cage wire and 1x2 framing. It is open on the bottom where it sits on the landing board and open on the side that sits against my loft. The side opposite the loft is hinged along the bottom edge and can be opened at the top so the whole side falls down over the outside edge of the landing board. As you might guess, my landing board is about 4ft long and 2ft wide. That way, the aviary wall can fold right down over the edge of the platform when it is opened. The trap is located at one side of the platform so moving the aviary one foot either way puts the trap either inside or outside the aviary. My trap training is done with the aviary over the trap so the birds get used to the platform, the aviary, the trap, and my neighbourhood long before being let loose to fly.

If the young birds are put out on the platform before meals with the older birds, or alone if there are no older birds, they will get the idea of coming in through the bobs for dinner quite quickly. Spending time on the platform inside the aviary with the bobs locked open gives them time to flap around outdoors and get used to the way the neighbourhood looks. 

If you can let your birds out onto the platform BEFORE they are actually able to fly but after they are trap and food trained, that will be a great help because they will be able to fly up a few feet or even fly up to the roof and back - albeit flapping like crazy to do so.

I have zero experience with wetting down a bird deliberately. But I did let my birds go in the rain once. I emphasize ONCE. I will NEVER do that again - it was a total disaster. They scattered in every direction landing in trees and on the grass and one even landed in my pond. Catching and rescuing them all was a fiasco. If you do try that, I'd like to know how you did it and what happens.

Another question for you to answer for yourself and consider - you say your older birds are paired up. But if I understood your note, you also say that they are still very young. So are they just buddies or are they "lovers"? Have you seen them actually mating? In other words, don't be too confident that they are paired just because two birds seem to sit together or even do the love strut/croon thing. In fact, I often see older birds mate that were not even paired - a persistent male can sometimes cause a hen to squat for him and then have nothing to do with him afterward. Even more surprising, I have one old **** that seems quite willing to squat for any male that wants her..... even ones that are paired with other hens! I have a somewhat similar story about ducks that is totally hilarious. They could make a tv show on them.....

Cheers!


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

Susquatch said:


> My "opinion" is that trap training inside the loft is a good idea but is not a substitute for trap training from outside to inside the loft. I think your "basket" concept is like a smaller version of my flight aviary. ... My trap training is done with the aviary over the trap so the birds get used to the platform, the aviary, the trap, and my neighbourhood long before being let loose to fly.
> 
> If the young birds are put out on the platform before meals with the older birds, or alone if there are no older birds, they will get the idea of coming in through the bobs for dinner quite quickly. Spending time on the platform inside the aviary with the bobs locked open gives them time to flap around outdoors and get used to the way the neighbourhood looks.
> 
> ...


Inside the loft was to get their thought patterns working. If you check out my PT Photo album it might help explain what I am up to. I just wanted them to start mentally focusing on 'problem solving' of getting thru bobs.

Yes, next up is to be OUTSIDE but contained and go through the bobs. My basket is just like your rabbit cage.

I will let you know how the 'soaking' goes. Big difference from getting wet slowly, to a full dunk and set out. (Think cormorants).

While I haven't seen them do the full 'deed'. I have all other indicators, the cooing, picking of boxes trying to lure her (he's successful at getting her in - again, my photos might help), there is a lot of beak kissing, and feeding one another, strutting, and he is possessive now in where she goes (hustling her). As well as the two of them now share perches and had never done so before. I still think they are about 4 - 6 mo old (Breeder does not band birds). So it may be a bit of 'playing house' but they are pretty intense about it. He also drives other birds away from her.


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

Yup, I imagine a total dunk is different from getting wet in the rain. I love your reference to Cormorants. It suggests that you are more versed in wood lore than most.

At the risk of launching a huge debate on the forum, and potentially offending a few members, I think that "problem solving" is attributing more intelligence to your birds than they have. I am a farm boy, a proficient dog trainer, and an international dog trial judge. My firm belief is that most animals do learn in steps, but the entire process is one of association and repetition to establish conditioned habits not problem solving. There are a few animals that can problem solve but I doubt that pigeons and dogs are among them. I think most pet owners just like to think that their pets are a lot smarter than they really are. My bet would be that you could skip the inside start and just go straight to the desired end result. But I will also say that doing it in steps won't hurt other than inserting a delay that could cause a problem with birds that are too strong on the wing when they do get out. My newbie observation with pigeons is that the sooner they fly, the better the results. Not that delays are necessarily bad - just that the odds improve with the sooner it is done.

Yes, please do keep us posted. I am anxious to see how your water bath works compared to my current gradual introduction process.

I am also interested to see how soon your birds actually lay eggs. They seem pretty sexually advanced for their age to me. I have only had about 40 birds so far (maybe 50 at the outside), and none of mine have ever mated so soon - male or female.

Cheers!


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

i moved across the street, moved the loft and everything, was a total disaster trying to get the birds to relocate 80 yards. left them in and resettled them over 2 months. ended up getting about half to figure it out, some of which still try to go back there for a couple hours.


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## Silver Wings (Jan 27, 2014)

aarongreen123 said:


> i moved across the street, moved the loft and everything, was a total disaster trying to get the birds to relocate 80 yards. left them in and resettled them over 2 months. ended up getting about half to figure it out, some of which still try to go back there for a couple hours.


It's amazing how 'set' they can get in an area.




Susquatch said:


> Yup, I imagine a total dunk is different from getting wet in the rain. I love your reference to Cormorants. It suggests that you are more versed in wood lore than most.
> 
> At the risk of launching a huge debate on the forum, and potentially offending a few members, I think that "problem solving" is attributing more intelligence to your birds than they have. I am a farm boy, a proficient dog trainer, and an international dog trial judge. My firm belief is that most animals do learn in steps, but the entire process is one of association and repetition to establish conditioned habits not problem solving. There are a few animals that can problem solve but I doubt that pigeons and dogs are among them. I think most pet owners just like to think that their pets are a lot smarter than they really are. My bet would be that you could skip the inside start and just go straight to the desired end result. But I will also say that doing it in steps won't hurt other than inserting a delay that could cause a problem with birds that are too strong on the wing when they do get out. My newbie observation with pigeons is that the sooner they fly, the better the results. Not that delays are necessarily bad - just that the odds improve with the sooner it is done.
> 
> ...


I have spent many a years around cormorants, and know their ways.
I would have gone straight out for the training except the young birds (4) were not able to flutter down from the height of the bobs yet (5 ft).
Well I hadn't taught them how to get from haybale to hay bale... They have figured that out on their own. They look at the landing pad for the roost and I do see mental calculations of where they want to go (in) and how to go about it. They stand there and look around. Jump to the 1/2 way point on the side of a bale and pull themselves up the rest... Go to the next hay bale that is askew and work their way around til they get to a board that is leaned up against the roost box and walk the upward plank to get in. That takes some thought as I have not taught them that, and the 3 older birds can just fly into the roost. 

As of yesterday they were starting to 'flutter' a few can gain altitude. We'll be flying by next week outside the loft IF the weather will cooperate. Today we are in a blizzard with less than 1/8 mi visibility.

Also a farmsteader, and train my pups at 5 wks on commands with 98% success of commands - consistently - within the week... maybe we just approach things differently....


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## Susquatch (Jun 25, 2012)

Silver Wings said:


> Well I hadn't taught them how to get from haybale to hay bale... They have figured that out on their own. They look at the landing pad for the roost and I do see mental calculations of where they want to go (in) and how to go about it. They stand there and look around. Jump to the 1/2 way point on the side of a bale and pull themselves up the rest... Go to the next hay bale that is askew and work their way around til they get to a board that is leaned up against the roost box and walk the upward plank to get in. That takes some thought as I have not taught them that, and the 3 older birds can just fly into the roost.


This debate might be fun! I trust you will view it that way and not take offense.

In my view, *MOST* of the vast majority of members of the animal world, very few learn or understand or think about anything the way that we do. Perhaps we can start by agreeing that nobody teaches a new born calf to stand up. They just do it by instinct and get better at it through the success/failure of various entirely instinctual approaches to doing it. That despite the fact that standing up on their own the very first day of their life is a very complicated manouver! In my opinion, your young birds are not "figuring out" how to get to the perch. They are just looking where their instinct tells them they want to be (which itself is a conditioned state of happiness/content based upon success/failure or good/bad), then instinctually gauging the distance and height by moving their heads back and forth, and then instinctively walking, climbing, and/or flying to get them closer and closer. Their preference to climb, walk, or fly is also a "conditioned" behaviour that is based upon success and failure in earlier experiences.

The day that this understanding sunk into my little brain was a major turning point in my ability to train dogs to world class levels of performance. But to be clear, I did not develop this understanding myself - I learned it (which humans are able to do) by reading the research results of animal behavioral psychologists. 

Of course, one must always apply this concept in the context of the instincts of each species. Dogs and cats and birds are not the same at all. Each has many millions of years of instinctual behavior programmed into them that define their reactions to various stimuli and the level of happiness or contentment or comfort (hormonal balance) they experience in various environments.

I do agree that we humans can teach animals to do certain things. But that word "teach" needs some qualifying. In my view it does not mean helping them to think or reason or understand. It means creating an environment for them in which their instincts will drive them to succeed or fail to achieve instinctual happiness/comfort and thereby build conditioned repeatable responses to our chosen stimuli.

In nature, the associations are often brutal. Those that make the associations survive - those that don't die. Danger/survival trumps all other stimuli.

I will give one example where the research applies to pigeons. "Most" pigeon owners "train" their pigeons to come to a food whistle, by blowing the whistle and then opening the door to allow the birds to eat whenever they are hungry. But the research says you get them feeding first, and then blow the whistle. This order is important because it is MUCH harder for them to associate the whistle with food if it happens BEFORE the happiness event -mostly because the timing cannot be controlled and because there are usually quite a few pigeons who won't all do the same things at once. Once they associate the whistle with food in this preferred food then whistle order, they will snap to the reverse association. The bottom line is that the association happens MUCH FASTER if the whistle is blown AFTER they start feeding than if it is blown before. (Ideally, the two should happen simultaneously but that isn't possible with more than one bird.) Notice that I did not use the word "learn". Instead, I used the word "associate". Association of good and bad stimuli with good and bad conditions is a key element of most animal behaviours. In my view, we don't teach them anything and they don't learn anything. Instead, we condition them to associate stimuli with the behaviour that we want them to exhibit. Then we build on those associations to create more and more complicated associations.

I accept the fact that this view isn't likely to be a popular view with most people. I think that's because we LIKE to think our favorite animals can be like us. I just don't think that they can.

That's my two cents for whatever it is worth. Happy to expand on any part of this or debate it in a friendly way. Or even just agree to disagree and drop it..... LOL!!!!

Cheers!


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