# Sleeper designs



## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi

I've seen these kind of sleeping compartments/perches quite often.









the image is just taken from google.

Are these for separated sexes or is it suitable for mixed as well?

If I was to have this kind of set up in a mixed sex loft would the paired birds try to squeeze in together into one compartment?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do they look comfortable to you? They can't even turn around. In a mixed loft, why not have flat perches and nest boxes? They will still try to nest if they pair up together. In there or on the floor or where ever. Do they not have nest boxes?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm in the planning stage.

Originally I was going for 4 large nest boxes on top of each other, and 9 box perches (6" deep) along side them. Inside a 6' x 4.5' x 3' loft.

But I started having doubts as to whether that made sense or not. If they'd just end up fighting over the nest boxes non-stop. Would I need as many nest boxes as I had pairs even if I only want to breed 2 or 3 pairs?

Thinking about it, flat perches will allow me to fit in more perches than box perches.

Thanks


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you saying that it is 6 X 4.5 feet, and 3 feet tall?
How many birds do you have?
You need as many boxes as you have males. Because they will each need their own box. Otherwise they would be fighting for the boxes.
There should be more perches than there are birds, and space them at least a foot apart, or they will just aggravate each other from their perch. Pigeons are very anal about their space, and don't like to share it.
The way you would control who hatches babies is with using fake eggs. When you take eggs from a pair, you put the fake eggs in their place. You never just take away eggs, without replacing them. This will just cause the female to lay right away again. That is bad for her and will eventually deplete her of calcium. She will then have all sorts of problems, like egg binding and other problems. 
You don't want to keep single birds in with pairs, as they just disrupt things. Try to just keep paired birds. 
Don't mix singles in with the the pairs, or there will always be problems. The singles will try to break up the pairs. And it really isn't fair to the singles anyway, as all these guys want to do is to pair up and nest and raise babies. So try to keep pairs. A lot easier.
Can you post a picture of your loft.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

no sorry it's 6ft high, 4.5ft wide and 3ft deep.

I haven't built it yet. These are the measurements I calculated from the space I have available.

I saw this loft and liked the design:








I was thinking of a similar design, without the flight, as when they are not with young I intend to free fly my birds.


I want to keep Lahores, and have a few chicks a year to play around with colours.

I was thinking max I'd have 3 breeding pairs, but if you say I cannot keep the pairs and their misc young together in the same space then I'm going to have to rethink that. I know I want black, red and dilute in my flock, so I can mix and match my pairs.

I'm definitely prepared to switch out the eggs. Already bought some from ebay since I found a really good deal!  And I'm used to it, because I have to do that with the doves, (though those I had to make myself)

you say the perches have to be a foot apart, would that have to be more for larger birds like Lahores?


I have an old dove cot, 2.5' wide, 1' high and 2' deep.

Would it make more sense to have just perches in the loft, and then pick the two I want to breed and use the dove cot as a breeding pen? Or would I still have problems with fights in the loft?

I do have the space to build another identical loft. I was thinking of saving that as my expansion pack in case things go well and I want more space.
Should I build them both straight away? And have the pairs in one and young in the other? But when the young mature they will still pair up together right? So I'd still need even numbers of males and females.....

Sorry for all the questions. I'm not very used to flock dymanics. And thanks for your replies!!


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## benson1 (Jun 1, 2013)

This style of perches works great as long as you put two 2"x2" Vertical strips behind the peches to keep it away from the wall which helps for cleaning and eases dopping to the floor and gives them that much more room that they need.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

benson1 said:


> This style of perches works great as long as you put two 2"x2" Vertical strips behind the peches to keep it away from the wall which helps for cleaning and eases dopping to the floor and gives them that much more room that they need.


hello benson1! I didn;t quite understand that. You put 2"x2" strips behind the box perches? So there is a gap between the box perch and the wall of the loft?

Thanks


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## benson1 (Jun 1, 2013)

yes, that is exactly what i meant. we have it like that in a few of our lofts and it works great!


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

benson1 said:


> yes, that is exactly what i meant. we have it like that in a few of our lofts and it works great!


Thanks! 

How deep are your box perches?

Do you keep mixed sexes in the loft or separate them?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can only fit 6 birds in a loft that size, and if you want to breed, then it will get crowded very quickly. Building the box perches away from the wall is a good idea. You still need a box for each male, as they will pair up and need a place to nest. They will be nesting on the floor, or the perches or whatever. It's what they do. So even if you used the dove cote for breeding, the other pairs will still breed.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> You can only fit 6 birds in a loft that size, and if you want to breed, then it will get crowded very quickly. Building the box perches away from the wall is a good idea. You still need a box for each male, as they will pair up and need a place to nest. They will be nesting on the floor, or the perches or whatever. It's what they do. So even if you used the dove cote for breeding, the other pairs will still breed.



6 birds because of number of perches or air volume?

I did a bit of a more thorough breeding plan and came up with a different design. 
I calculated more than 6 birds though so I might have to go back to the drawing board again.

Let me know what you think please!! 

same size loft. I can make it maybe 5" deeper, but much more than that and I won't be able to reach everywhere to clean it.

Nesting boxes 12x12x18", nest bowl on a raised shelf, sitting in a cut out, to lower its height. To separate the nest itself from the squabs while the parents lay the second pair. There will also be a landing platform in front of the nest. Do you think 6x6" is enough for the platform?

3 nest boxes per row, 3 rows. open area underneath nest boxes 12" high

Max capacity 6 pairs.

3 empty nest boxes, 10 square perches along the side walls


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The formula says that the birds should have 2 sq. ft of floor space each, as the minimum. So you go by by the square footage. You will be crowded with 12 birds. When they are crowded, the air quality goes down, and the stress level goes up. When that happens, the birds get sick. There is also a lot more fighting when crowded. More nest boxes is great, but it still is over crowding for 12 birds.

Now I know some will come in and argue that, but then some like to crowd their birds. It just isn't the healthy way to keep them. And it's better to have fewer birds that are happy and healthy with plenty of room, then more birds who are fighting and breathing in a lot of dust, and stressed.


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## benson1 (Jun 1, 2013)

If I had a loft that size, I would keep no more then 4 pairs in it. And even go the extra mile of putting a divider in it. That way you can puta pair on each side.. While not breeding you can seperate the sexes on each side.

Our hangingbox perches are 4" deep


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

But she won't be breeding most of the time. Why keep them separate all the time? Better to switch out the eggs. And dividing something that small wouldn't give them room to even move around in. Still too many birds.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

So should I replace one of the rows of nest boxes with perches?

It seems silly to have 9 deep nest boxes when I can only have 3-4 pairs.


I have decided on my starter 2 pairs (colours combinations I mean)

if I breed 1 clutch off both next breeding season I'll have 8 birds already :/ And if they're not the colours I want I'll have even more!! 

I suppose I better start building the second one sooner than later

LOL i'm going to take over the whole roof!

How do people manage having these small almost 3x4x3' lofts with 7 or 8 odd birds in them.

Even the pick I posted has 9 in it, and I think it is smaller than mine will be


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> But she won't be breeding most of the time. Why keep them separate all the time? Better to switch out the eggs. And dividing something that small wouldn't give them room to even move around in. Still too many birds.


yes it actually seems less of a headache at the moment, replacing eggs than separating the birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well 4.5 X 3 is about the same as 3 X 4. And if that is the size they have, then they should only have 6 birds. The square footage of the floor is still the same. Do what you want. Just trying to share what is healthy for the birds and what isn't. If you want to keep more then do it. But the fewer you have, the better it is, and the healthier and happier they will be. You need to do what you feel is right.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Well 4.5 X 3 is about the same as 3 X 4. And if that is the size they have, then they should only have 6 birds. The square footage of the floor is still the same. Do what you want. Just trying to share what is healthy for the birds and what isn't. If you want to keep more then do it. But the fewer you have, the better it is, and the healthier and happier they will be. You need to do what you feel is right.


You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying others do that so it must be fine. I was just amazed that some people have really specific, thought out lofts, with everything just so, and others have what look like chicken wire boxes with a couple of wooden sides put it. So as a newbie, until you ask you're never sure if one is exaggerating or the other isn't taking it seriously enough.

So additional height is of no real benefit to the birds? It is the floor space that counts for the number of birds?

I should probably build the second loft soon after I get the first pair then, so if I keep the young I'd have enough room to house them all.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying others do that so it must be fine. I was just amazed that some people have really specific, thought out lofts, with everything just so, and others have what look like chicken wire boxes with a couple of wooden sides put it. So as a newbie, until you ask you're never sure if one is exaggerating or the other isn't taking it seriously enough.
> 
> I understand. And I can understand how you feel. No ones loft is ever large enough, and there is usually several things we would like to change, once it is built. We're never satisfied. I wish mine were twice as big, and an aviary the same size. I would like to be able to take in more birds, but have to think of the ones I have now. The additional height is good for the birds. It gives them more room to move around, and more room to put in perches and nest boxes. But the formula goes by the floor space, and it's good because it is so easy to get over crowded. And it is just so much nicer, healthier and more peaceful when there are fewer birds. It easier to enjoy them too. It really is. I have a loft of rescues, and it was much easier and better when I had fewer birds. But I love each one, and they're my pets. And as I said, we always wish we had a bigger loft. But we can only do what we can do.
> 
> ...


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## Rod Hultquist (Aug 23, 2009)

Why not make it 4x8 or 3.5x7.5(4x8 sheet of ply will give 6" over hang for the roof) divide it in the middle, and have two sections. Install four nest boxes on one side and 6-8 perches on the other side. This will also give you the option of separating the sexes in the winter months or an old bird/ young bird arrangement in the other months. You could still use the loft in the photo as a model for your design.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't think she wants to separate the sexes. She will only be breeding a pair or two now and then.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> The formula says that the birds should have 2 sq. ft of floor space each, as the minimum. So you go by by the square footage. You will be crowded with 12 birds. When they are crowded, the air quality goes down, and the stress level goes up. When that happens, the birds get sick. There is also a lot more fighting when crowded. More nest boxes is great, but it still is over crowding for 12 birds.
> 
> Now I know some will come in and argue that, but then some like to crowd their birds. It just isn't the healthy way to keep them. And it's better to have fewer birds that are happy and healthy with plenty of room, then more birds who are fighting and breathing in a lot of dust, and stressed.


Your correct, more room is better, but some of the best belguim racers out there keep more birds than recommended, If one has great ventilation and great perches and also flies their birds then the floor space is irrelevant IMO so this formula is great for a standard type of lost but when one knows what they are doing they can still have healthy, happy birds in a loft which does not follow this formulation.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

4x8 as in 8'wide?

I'd rather have 2 smaller ones if I am going to take up that much room space, as it makes it easier to catch the birds if I need to medicate them etc. And I am not building one I can walk in as I don;t have enough depth in the area allocated to the loft.

The house is my parent's, and while they have no problem with me building a loft there they want to create a roof garden in the future, so I cannot encroach too far onto 'their side'.

My birds will be free flying a couple of times a day, but I also want the option that they'd be comfortable if I didn't fly them for a few days, so that when I go on holiday, my parents don't have too much trouble taking care of them. So I can't push it too much I think.

I'll build one. Maybe make fewer but more spacious nest boxes, and more perches. 

I'll get my first pair, see what young I keep or don;t from them, and when I want to get my second pair I'll start building the second loft. That way, by the time I have 3 breeding pairs I'll have 2 lofts, and 12 nest boxes ready.
I'll play it by ear, and once I see that they're getting overcrowded and unsettled I'll split them with the second loft which will already have been built 

Thanks for the feedback


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Rod Hultquist said:


> Why not make it 4x8 or 3.5x7.5(4x8 sheet of ply will give 6" over hang for the roof) divide it in the middle, and have two sections. Install four nest boxes on one side and 6-8 perches on the other side. This will also give you the option of separating the sexes in the winter months or an old bird/ young bird arrangement in the other months. You could still use the loft in the photo as a model for your design.


I like your idea of the divider. But I think I'd still prefer 2 separate structures. Mainly because of aesthetics, so it doesn't look to bulky  Though putting a divider would certainly be less work!


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Here are some basic sketches. The first is the standard formula I automatically thought of.

The second is a format I thought of today.

Which would you think would be more comfortable and give more airspace to the birds? The main door is at the front, widest side. The left side will also open. Sizes are the same 140cm wide, 90cm deep

Thanks 









6 nest boxes
8 flat perches, underneath nest boxes and along loft sides
2 perch bars along the doors running the width of the loft, 140cm
6-8 birds Max









6 nest boxes
6 flat perches along back wall
3 perch bars that run the full depth of the loft, 90cm, along the left wall
6-8 birds Max


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They probably won't want to use the perches underneath the nest boxes. They like a higher perch. The higher the better. It's a natural instinct to perch high at night, to be safe from predators. And they want a perch where they can watch their box from. They can't do that from underneath them. Some will use a perch that come out from the box, but it can't be in front of the other birds box. Maybe if it comes out from the middle of their box.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> They probably won't want to use the perches underneath the nest boxes. They like a higher perch. The higher the better. It's a natural instinct to perch high at night, to be safe from predators. And they want a perch where they can watch their box from. They can't do that from underneath them. Some will use a perch that come out from the box, but it can't be in front of the other birds box. Maybe if it comes out from the middle of their box.


The nest box will have a small landing platfrom. So should I stagger the heights of the perches so that they are not on the same level as the landing platform?
I will be putting in a nest front to give the nest boxes more privacy.

I can change the first design by moving the nest boxes one row down, and having a 12" gap above them for the birds to perch on,instead of leaving space underneath for the perches, but it will be one whole surface not individual perches.

Which configuration do you think makes more sense? The next boxes at the back, or at the side?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you make it over the boxes, and it's one landing for everyone, it may work, or one dominant bird may take over the whole shelf. That's what mine do with shelves. 
Some one else did that, and put a brick every 6 or 7 inches or so, and the birds perch on the bricks and seem to like them. Also kind of gives them each a bit of a separate perch. 
You will have to decide whether you think the boxes should be on the back or side, as I can't really picture that from the drawing.


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## klondike goldie (Apr 20, 2009)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=895&pictureid=21071


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Great idea to separate sections with a board. I forgot that I had done that as we were building the loft. They were caged and in the house all week, and when the weekend came, we would let them out in the loft for exercise and bathing. And I put up shelves, and ran boards up to make separate sections. Worked great. I had forgotten about that. 
Great idea! Thanks for the picture!


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

So just installed some of the nest box fronts let me know what you think please


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

And here's them trying them out


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