# Questions about Kite Bronze



## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi Everyone,

Can anyone tell me what exactly Kite bronze is? Is it a stand alone genetic factor like Indigo or Opal or is it something else? Slobberknockers states that it is simply a Blue T-Pattern velvet that is heterozygous for Recessive Red. 

But on another site, that has a lot of Almonds, they show the genetic symbols for the birds they sell and they show some Almonds that have one "K" (hetterozygous) and some that have two "K"s which to me would be homozygous. 

If indeed, Kite bronze is simply what is stated above, then a homozygous would really be a homozygous recessive red. And if, as Slobberknockers states that it is indeed a T-pattern, heterozygous for recessive red, then what would be the sense in assigning it the getetic symbol "K" as the other site does? Can anyone help clear this up for me?

Thanks,
Jim


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

*Kite is not recessive red*

Hi Jim,

The Kite Bronze gene is most definitely a mutation all its own, but since it is associated with recessive red in Almond breeding programs, many people wrongly assume that the two genes are linked.

Kite is a bronzing factor that does improve the depth of the ground color in Almonds, and is most probably not rare in almond breeding programs. In spite of this, I have yet to find a confirmed example of a blue T-pattern bird with kite bronze in real life or in pictures, so please take my comments with a pinch of salt.

I have been told that a bird that has kite will show some bronzing, especially in the neck and flights, and maybe on the shield as well. A single dose of kite is enough to show these effects, and I assume a homozygote will show more bronzing than a heterozygote. The first kite picture on the slobbernockerlofts website seems to be such a bird. These kites are not ideal for breeding good almonds, since they do not carry recessive red.

When a single dose of recessive red is added to the kite, the bronze expression is increased. I believe the  second kite picture on the slobbernocker lofts website to be a homozygous kite with a single dose of recessive red, and would be a good bird to use in almond breeding.

Since very few people breed spread almonds (at least not in rollers and tumblers), I would assume the kites in the pictures do not have the spread factor.

To confuse the matter even more, it is true that some birds carrying recessive red are somewhat red-ish on the neck and flights, especially in their nest feathers and I suppose could be confused with kite bronze. This red cast usually disappears with the first molt though, while the kite bronze does not.

I hope my opinions are accurate, I hope that an expert almond breeder on the forums will jump in and correct me where my assumptions were erroneous.

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks Rudolph,

Your explanations make a lot of sense to me.

Jim


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## newday (Dec 12, 2004)

*Kite*

Yes, the second kite picture on the slobbernocker lofts website wopuld be the one to use on breeding to almond. 

Link

www.martinlofts.com


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't get the het for recessive red part.
Were there experiments investigating this?
The mechanism of a not expressing recessive gene needed for a phenotype is only suggested for pigeons. Sounds like a remnant of "old" knowledge combined with modern genetics.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I understand that it might be another recessive red gene than the known "recessive red".


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> I don't get the het for recessive red part.
> Were there experiments investigating this?
> The mechanism of a not expressing recessive gene needed for a phenotype is only suggested for pigeons. Sounds like a remnant of "old" knowledge combined with modern genetics.


I understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not agree with your statement. There are genes called enablers / inhibitors /modifiers (in species such as chickens) for which epistatic relationships similar (but not identical) to the recessive-red, kite, almond, dilute interactions are also described.

The recessive red gene is definitely recessive to wild type, but that designation does not imply that in combination with other genes it cannot be expressed in a different way. In other words, it is not only necessary to describe the effect of a gene on an otherwise wild-type bird, it is also important to describe the interactions of the mutant gene with other genes which may modify its expression. 

References:

Ron Huntley 'Axel Sell in his book “Breeding and Inheritance in pigeons” gives the following recipe for success in breeding classic almonds. Sell suggests that cock birds be (St)/(+); (CT)/(CT); (e)/(+); (K)/(K).' 
Oriental rollers website: 'Kites with a very rich bronze in addition are heterozygous recessive red.'

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## FalconLofts.com (Dec 29, 2010)

Well, Kite is a dominant gene, that means you only need one copy of this gene for it to be expressed. You could have a homozygous rec. red (e//e) and have kite or Spread to enhance the intensity of the red. These birds are commonly referred to as improved rec. reds. Now the same applies the other way, you can intensify kite with a hetero. recessive red. Some will argue that kite is an allele of rec. red, but they are two very different gens, both in dominance and expression.

Attached please find 3 examples of kite birds.

More can be seen at www.FalconLofts.com


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

No enablers in chickens that I know of... 

I can live with these enabler genes showing no effect unless another gene is present.
But what are the odds that an otherwise recessive gene with a stand alone effect, is at the same time an enabler for another effect. Of course the enabler could be linked to the recessive red gene.

I can also live with a red intensifier being selected for in recessive red lines of pigeons.
In general genetics, recessive red blocks production of black pigment. In het form it doesn't do that.


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## FalconLofts.com (Dec 29, 2010)

Sorry, here is the other one...


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