# How many pigeons will fit?



## millerloft (Jun 3, 2012)

I am building a new loft and want to know...

How many birds will fit in a section that is 5X8 with an attached 4X5 walk out aviary, the door to the aviary will be open most all the time except in bad weather? So the birds will effectively be spread out in a 5X12 foot section.

How many YB

How many OB Hens

How many OB Cocks

Thanks!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

millerloft said:


> I am building a new loft and want to know...
> 
> How many birds will fit in a section that is 5X8 with an attached 4X5 walk out aviary, the door to the aviary will be open most all the time except in bad weather? So the birds will effectively be spread out in a 5X12 foot section.
> 
> ...


How many will fit ? Well there was a whole thread recently on same subject, not sure a whole other thread is way to go, will give some thought to merging this with that one.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Or maybe not....

I don't really have an answer as to how many one could put into a 5 x 8 section, and then have YB's and OB hens and OB cocks. Pulse you didn't give the height of the inside of your loft. And do you plan on having breeders ? Are you going to race all those you listed ? Or is this a one section for everything ? If you start with just two pair, my concern is in time you be overcrowded. 

Some good pigeon guys might suggest 3+ square ft per bird assuming about a 7' height. Along with a couple of nest boxes and a several perches per bird. More room is better then less room. And wouldn't count your aviary space at all in calculating your space. So maybe you have room for a maximum of 13. 
If you start with two pair, once they have several rounds, you will be maxed out, and then you best separate cocks and hens until such time as you build more space or get rid of some birds.


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## millerloft (Jun 3, 2012)

Those dementions are for each section for a total of three, one for by, two for old birds. I will have 40 box perches in the by section, 20 deep box perches in the hens section, and 20 nest boxes in the cock section. 

5 ft wide 8 foot long +4 foot walk out aviary and 7'6 high with false ceiling that has a large 6 foot by 2 foot vent that is closeable. 5 foot vent on back wall on the floor. 
Just because I have a certain number of perches does not mean I have to use them


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

a 5x8 loft divided by three?... Im lost..lol.. a 4x2 section would be for about 4 birds..would that even be worth it? I would not put more than 4 in a 4x2 section. The aviaries do count as living space as they just visit out there not live in it.


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## millerloft (Jun 3, 2012)

5x8section for young birds plus 4x5 walk out aviary
5x8 section for ob hens plus 4x5 walk out aviary
5x8 section for ob cocks plus 4x5 walk out aviary

For a total of 15x8 plus 4x15 walk out aviary


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

millerloft said:


> 5x8section for young birds plus 4x5 walk out aviary
> 5x8 section for ob hens plus 4x5 walk out aviary
> 5x8 section for ob cocks plus 4x5 walk out aviary
> 
> For a total of 15x8 plus 4x15 walk out aviary


ok, get it. I would say 15 to 20 max in one 5x8 section.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

In the young bird section I would honestly go 36-40 birds because you will loose some. Get like 60 perches in there though. 
Hen section 20 birds, cock section also 20 birds


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

36-40 birds may be pushing it even with the avairy. At most 30 birds. A good rule of thumb is 2 sq ft per bird so 5 X 8 = 40 sq ft , 40 divided by 2 = 20 birds, With the avairy maybe up to 30. Crowding them into the 40 sq feet where they will probably be sleeping invites disease/ilnesses. Just my opinion.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There are many threads here on this same subject and we go round and round... 2 sq ft is *not the rule of thumb* per bird.... 2 sq ft is the *minimum* amount of sq ft recommended.
As they are not going to be sleeping in the aviary, I don't think you should even count it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Charis said:


> There are many threads here on this same subject and we go round and round... 2 sq ft is *not the rule of thumb* per bird.... 2 sq ft is the *minimum* amount of sq ft recommended.
> *As they are not going to be sleeping in the aviary, I don't think you should even count it.*


 I agree with everything you say. No matter what "minimum" number is given, the average fancier is going to push that limit anyway, which is why in my post I suggest 3+sq feet. 

Reason why I suspect that the "average" fancier pushes the envelope, and does it wrong, is because well...they are "average" !


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

millerloft said:


> Those dementions are for each section for a total of three, one for by, two for old birds. I will have 40 box perches in the by section, 20 deep box perches in the hens section, and 20 nest boxes in the cock section.
> 
> 5 ft wide 8 foot long +4 foot walk out aviary and 7'6 high with false ceiling that has a large 6 foot by 2 foot vent that is closeable. 5 foot vent on back wall on the floor.
> Just because I have a certain number of perches does not mean I have to use them


OK, just saw this updated information. IMHO, ideally a 5x8 section will provide a very comfortable amount of space for about a dozen or so pigeons. 

Unfortunately, you will get responses from fanciers suggesting two or three times that amount, and as sure as you are reading this post, if you start at any amount anywhere near those amounts, it won't be long before you will exceed even those numbers. And then there will be posts from you about this and that ailment and problem. Because what many folks just don't understand is that crowding them this way will result in a whole slew of problems where overcrowding is the core at the issue. 

The same folks that don't understand overcrowding, do not understand the repercussions on the physiology and the psychological impact on the pigeon. So they will then suggest various antibiotic cocktails like 4 in 1, 5 in 1, 10 in 1 antibiotics, etc. to fix whatever bug it might be. I just wanted to plant this seed in your mind, so that when you have difficulty getting your pigeons into top form and condition, you might at least revisit this overcrowding thought rather then do what many fanciers attempt to do, and that is to fix their faulty loft conditions with ever increasing amounts of medications.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

My mentor has won average speed multiple times, IF Hall of Fame birds, wons 1st-5th in the 2003 IF Convention, and multiple race wins, not to mention Champion and second Champion birds. Now when I asked him how many young birds can I put in my 12 x 4 section he said I can do 45-50. Now I thought that was a bit too much so I went ahead and now have 38 in there. Everyone has different opinions the more space the better obviously.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I am always a bit more interested not in what a fancier says, but in what he actually does. Sometimes fanciers will articulate their theories, that they themselves do not actually put into practice. So in your situation, he is suggesting if my math is correct, around one single square foot per occupant. Does he actually only provide a square foot per bird in his own YB loft or in his breeding loft ?

At the risk of sounding argumentative or some kind of know it all, I would suspect if he does, that perhaps he would win even more and have healthier happier pigeons if he didn't, but if he is already set in his ways, then perhaps he is already as good as he ever will be ? Perhaps his greatest seasons are already behind him ? Does he have power fans or other mechanical devices which might negate some of the negatives from a more dense loft population ?

Perhaps some years, just for fun, and just to "prove" me wrong, keep track of how many pigeons you have at end of the season with your higher bird count at the start with the 1 per square foot. Along with your wins and loses and the numbers and types of health issues. Then over the years reduce your starting count, giving more space and air to the remaining birds, and again track the numbers at the end of the season. 

There are seasonal differences and variables so one might need a decade of numbers to demonstrate the theory that less is better, especially if only making small changes, ie 45 vs.38. A larger decrease in population might provide more pertinent data, such as 33 vs. 45 (25% reduction) if we use 2sq ft then 24 vs 45 (about 45% reduction) 

I am not sure that anything we say here in terms of how many will fit, will have any bearing on what the author of this thread will do a few years from now after several breeding seasons and gifts of birds. As many fanciers will agree they "have too many" but reducing numbers often takes a level of discipline that many fanciers, even good ones, fail to implement. 

Having said all of this, I must say, I do not know what the ideal # per square foot might be, for one thing few lofts are exactly the same. Are located in different climates, face different directions, or anyone of 100's of things that make their particular loft unique. And that's includes things like air flow, ventilation, dust particles per million, number of baths per week etc. etc. all of which could affect the air quality and the ideal numbers which can be comfortably housed in any particular loft. Those variables could mean identical lofts spread throughout the country with different fanciers could in theory have different ideal #'s for their particular lofts because of these factors which haven't even been discussed since we all sort of focused on square footage, one size fits all kind of thinking.


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft: Very well said. I agree with you 100%. I have had a lot of "old timers" give me advice over my career with birds and I always looked to see if they were practicing what they preached. It can be a real eye opener! In fact, many times it was more like "Do what I say, not as I do".


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think history can tell you...packing of living things so they are crowded is going to be trouble... and sickness. when overcrowding I think of WWll concentration camps.. maybe that puts a bit of facts in the over crowding thinking.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I am always a bit more interested not in what a fancier says, but in what he actually does. Sometimes fanciers will articulate their theories, that they themselves do not actually put into practice. So in your situation, he is suggesting if my math is correct, around one single square foot per occupant. Does he actually only provide a square foot per bird in his own YB loft or in his breeding loft ?
> 
> At the risk of sounding argumentative or some kind of know it all, I would suspect if he does, that perhaps he would win even more and have healthier happier pigeons if he didn't, but if he is already set in his ways, then perhaps he is already as good as he ever will be ? Perhaps his greatest seasons are already behind him ? Does he have power fans or other mechanical devices which might negate some of the negatives from a more dense loft population ?
> 
> ...



Breeders and old bird racers are completely different than young birds, they are given at least 2 square feet for the old birds the breeders often more.

He practices open loft as well. Loft is open at 7 AM and is closed when it is dark. He even flies his breeders, which is funny and crazy in my eyes, you don't see many guys letting out hall of fame pigeons out to loft fly.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> Breeders and old bird racers are completely different than young birds, they are given at least 2 square feet for the old birds the breeders often more.
> 
> He practices open loft as well. Loft is open at 7 AM and is closed when it is dark. He even flies his breeders, which is funny and crazy in my eyes, you don't see many guys letting out hall of fame pigeons out to loft fly.


 Yeah, once upon a time, back when I knew even less then I do now, I would purchase pigeons from Mike Ganus and Ed Minvielle and loft fly them. It was Ed who suggested that loft flying pigeons you just paid thousands of dollars each for, might not be such a wise thing.  Hawks, wires, etc. are all possible. And as you said, how does one replace Hall of Fame or AU Champions ? 

Open loft all day for YB's ? Did he earn his fame primarily from racing success in OB's then ?


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