# Science Experiment?



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

My flock is turning into a science experiment. Just this week I checked on my baby Fantails to discover they do not look like they should. I have two whites and they have all bred white Fantails but these have black markings developing. I suspect my hen has been flirting with the feral next door.
I was hoping to avoid this kind of mixed breeding; I dread to think that I'll have birds that nobody will want if something ever happens to me. Has anyone had success mixing Fantails with common variety pigeons? What do they look like?

d.


----------



## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Mixing bird breeds produces just that, mixed breeds, but they are all still wonderful birds. Mixing is how all show birds have been developed.
Regards,
Carl


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I've read that some instances of mixing breeds destroys a strain. Examples of this sometimes show the strain reverting back to something like the blue bar/blue check normal wild type. Do Fantails retain their unique tail feathers? Can their flying ability be enhanced?

d.


----------



## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

If the young are crosses then the babys won't have tails like there mom, they may have more tail feathers then usual but they won't "stand up"...

Later,


----------



## santhosh_pigeons (May 29, 2002)

I have crossed a roller and a tumbler and the babies are extremely good flyers. they can fly upto 8hrs at a strech. crossing of pure breeds may wipe out strains but those that happen will have qualities of the parents. I dont recomend crossing fantails with diff breeds.


----------



## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

Ya, my crosses are very good flyers also, they are great to watch!!!

Later,


----------



## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

And by the way it is possible for 2 white birds that have had many white young to throw colored young. They just may not be Recessive White, or one maybe and the other maybe a grizzle.

Later,


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Do you mean two pure whites that are recessive having colored broods?

d.


----------



## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

Ya, it's possible...

Later,


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

So far the brood is at its tenth day. The colors coming in resemble mostly the father. I see few traces of white anywhere. The feathers are beginning to look like pins and needles but have not grown out yet so I can't tell how the tails will look. I'm really hoping some trace of a Fantail will come out of this. So far it's too early to tell. I'll keep you all informed of the results









d.


----------



## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

Its just like a crossbreed dog. Not everyone wants to or has the money to buy a purebred... alot of people prefer crosses better. Same with pigeons. Unless you are showing or competing in something it doesn't matter. And it may not even be crossed. Sometimes birds just throw off different colours now and then. Its in their genes... 2 blonde haired people don't always have blonde haired children 100% of the time.... think about that.

Good luck,
Nick


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Day 13:

The babies are crying louder and louder each day. I see traces of gray/blue bar color feathers growing in. Some white flight and primaries. These little ones are mostly dark gray all over. Still too early to tell how the tails will look.

Mama and Papa Fantails look tired and weary. For the first time ever Mama refused to feed the babies when they started calling.

More later,

d.


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

This is going to sound like a fish tale but my "Science Experiment" is taking on a new twist. The two baby half-Fantails are almost four weeks old now and almost as big as the parents. My poor Frances & Clair are working so hard to keep them fed. They look tired whenever I peek in at them









The baby half-Fantails may turn out looking like Syrian Fantails because their tail feathers are not as upright as the parents. They look strangely unlike either the mom or the apparent dad. I'm not even sure anymore which male in my flock is the true sire. I only know it was NOT a Fantail









In any case, they're getting so big this brood is becoming a case of the "Super Squabs".

d.


----------



## Wild Dove (Apr 9, 2002)

Do the babies seem at all interested in eating seed on their own yet?
I must say, "Dad" certainly deserves a medal for raising babes that arn't his








Pigeons are such wonderful parents!
Wild Dove


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Yes, they are starting to eat on their own, but still crave mom and dad's meals









They are a little shy too, unlike my other Fantail broods.

The color pattern is a brownish bar type with white flight and primaries. The tails point out normally but are slightly fanned. Can't tell yet how fanned they will be but they are wider at the end than at the point where they come out. The tails do not point upright at all.

They have left the nest and are on the floor of their compartment now. Clair has already started calling for a new nest. (I think I may curtail their breeding for the rest of the year...)

d.


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

After about six weeks my science experiment has proved a success - of sorts.

First, I don't have weird looking pigeons







I have to normal looking birds that have slightly wider than normal tails at the ends. You wouldn't know immediately until you've looked at them for a few seconds that there is anything unusual about them. An untrained eye wouldn't see a theing. Both are very tame and easy to manage (so far anyway). They're still at the squeaker stage when they want mom and dad to feed them but they are eating and drinking on their own.

Their color patterns show some kind of dark brown or blue bar descent, with white flight and under feathers. Both look almost exactly the same except for one has one white feather down the middle of its tail. This looks like a line or pattern I'd like to preserve or develop since babies look so much alike. Is this possible? Or am I more likely to have variations if I can line breed them together? One possibility is to pair them with some of my other white fans and see how the tails and patterns emerge. (BTW: All my fans hatched from the same original pair.)

d.


----------



## Wild Dove (Apr 9, 2002)

Your new babies sound gorgeous!
So...after seeing the little ones fully feathered, do you still think Clair had a fling with another man, or has she been faithful?








If you get the chance, we'd love to see some photos!
Wild Dove


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

She had a fling alright. I just can't tell now which one it was. The babies look like they could have been sired by either of two different males. Guess I'll never know for sure.

One thing is sure. They look so much alike. Whenever I have a mixed pair the babies never look the same. That's why I was wondering if I could line breed these two (assuming of course they are male and female)or try the same formula again and see what kind of babies I get.

...

This gives me an idea for another "science experiment". I have a blue bar paired with a pure white and I'd like to pair my white with one of my pure white Fantails and see what happens. I'm sure the tails won't come out fully developed but I'd like to see how the white line develops.

Any chance of pulling this off without splitting up my pairs (I'd hate to do that to mated pairs)?

Any thoughts?

d.


----------



## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

Your fantails are most likely Recessive White birds which means if you pair them up with any birds that is not Rec. White all the young will be carrying Rec. White and most likely will not be all white, but if you pair them young up with each otehr then 25% of the young will be all white(Rec. White)... Or if you pair one of the young with the Rec.White parent then 75% of the young will be Rec.Whites.(all white)

Later,

------------------
Ryan Harvey
~*~Crossbreed Lofts~*~
http://www.angelfire.com/or3/crossbreedloft


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I'd be inclined to agree except my hen is notorious for lusting after the cock next door. She even rejected her original mate for a while and kept tryst going with the other cock for a few days until he got so rough I decided to split them up. One day I spotted them "trying again" and wondered what would happen. I'm still not sure if he's the father or the blue bar on the other side. She's quite the liberated hen









d.


----------



## santhosh_pigeons (May 29, 2002)

I have seen this kind of behaviour in my birds. When a female gets paired to a really good breeder and if they have bred for a long time the female decides to try something else. Even if two white or two black have been producing their same colours they may produce diffetent after several breeding months. This recessive character doesnt effect the breed if you know for sure who are the parents.


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by Scuiry:
> *
> I'd be inclined to agree except my hen is notorious for lusting after the cock next door. She even rejected her original mate for a while and kept tryst going with the other cock for a few days until he got so rough I decided to split them up. One day I spotted them "trying again" and wondered what would happen. I'm still not sure if he's the father or the blue bar on the other side. She's quite the liberated hen
> 
> ...










pretty funny.

Actually, what you are seeing is nature at it's best......"survival of the fittest".

In an open loft, if you watch for any length of time, you will see that all the cock birds will rush over and try to knock a treading cock off his hen. It is nature, trying to establish that the strongest cock bird gets to father the babies of the flock.

A cock bird will try and mate with any hen that is willing, especially during the height of mating season. We had one cock bird who would return from a flight, then proceed to mate with any hen out on the loft roof (saw him once -- 3 in 20 minutes), THEN proceed to go inside and take his turn on the nest with his mate! LOL

The ONLY way to truly determine who is the father of any hen's babies is to have individual breeding pens. That, or have nest boxes with the pairs locked in until the hen lays both her eggs.

As someone's already mentioned, pairing your 1/2 breeds to a pure white may or may not give you white babies. It's something I'm thinking about right now too, because I have 2 1/2 fans that ARE pure white, and someone I know has pure white fans.....in my case, I would have a higher percentage of whites, I think (this genetic stuff confuses me, really







)

Maybe we should both experiment, and compare notes? LOL


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I should take some pictures now and forward them to this thread. Both babies are now budding youngsters and look almost identical. I'm struck by how alike they both look. The basic pattern is some kind of blue or dark gray bar ancestry with white flights and white to gray undersides. Tails are slightly wider at the ends and do not stand up.

I don't know if this is a fluke or whether line breeding this pair would have similar results.

BTW: My next "Science Experiment" will be to pair a pure white Fantail with a pure white racing pigeon (as soon as I can get one). I will keep you informed in the months ahead









d.


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

All of our 1/2 breeds have basically the same body/tail structure. Only the colours have been different.

Our naughty hen







has had 3 different mates.

Paired last year with a white cock bird, she had two sets -- one was a "single", pure white, the other was a pure white and a mostly dark checkered type-- probably similar to what you have. The darker one died, unfortunately, but we still have the two pure white ones.

This year, she paired with a different white (we think....she was sharing a nest with a race pair at the time....). The result was a singleton again....mostly white, with grey/barred patches, and a completely grey barred tail.

She also had a baby with the race cock bird...a dark red (he's beautiful!).

I should mention, in case I haven't.....the hen is a dark chocolate brown.

I'll have to try and get some pictures too....


----------



## Badragoon (Apr 22, 2002)

At the moment I have a Giant Homer (female) paired with a small (male) Show Roller. The female is Red/Brown and the male is Blue Barred. I didn't pair them. They were both trying their hardest to get a mate, and then they turned up gone. They came back and nested. I was shocked and still am. I wonder what their babies will look like? Sorry for the long post.









------------------
Da' Dragoon


----------



## Badragoon (Apr 22, 2002)

Does anyone have solid white homers or rollers? Or perhaps does someone have a fantail with black/white striped tail and grizzled body?

------------------
Da' Dragoon


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Update:

My two little half-fans have developed opposite personalities. One follows me everywhere, the othe will have nothing to do with me. The tails show a definite Fantail influence but they look more like Syrian Fantails than Americans.

Since both of these birds are almost identical what are the chances of line breeding them to breed the same pattern/strain? Am I more likely to lose the looks I have and end up with something entirely different? What if I bred them with similar looking Fantails (e.g., Blue Bars)? I'd like to see if I can reproduce the half-fantail look while retaining the Blue/Brown Bar features.

d.


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by Scuiry:
> *
> Update:
> 
> ...



I'm bringing this back up to the top because I'm genuinely curious about line breeding the traits. These are recessive traits and I'm wondering if I risk losing them or having them only in a few of the young that would hatch from this pair?

Would it be better if I crossed them with a blue bar Fantail to bring out the features and then try to develop the look that way?

Basically I want to keep the blue bar features but have a more subtle tail like the Syrian Fantails.

I wouldn't be interested in this if I didn't have an almost identical pair.

Daniel


----------



## ChristyB (Apr 4, 2003)

For Badragoon,

I'm interested to know in how the young of the Show Roller and the Racer turned out..any info?

Everyone else,

Got any pictures? I would love to see the results









ChristyB

------------------


----------



## CJ. Thomas (Nov 11, 2002)

Hey I think if you breed your fantails to a blue bar homer that the tail will not stand up as much, and still have the blue bar pattern.
CJ. Thomas


----------



## patspigeons (Jul 14, 2002)

Hello, I`ve heard its better to breed father daughter, rather that brother sister.And at that try to keep it to a minimum.To much can make them weak and not real smart. But you can try once to see what happens.Line breeding is ok.And helps improve a strain.Sometimes I have cross`s and these birds have great markings and better crests than the parents.Sometime new blood inhances vigor in the breed. You can breed back to the fans and end up with a more vigorous strain of birds??! Good luck, Pat


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by CJ. Thomas:
> *Hey I think if you breed your fantails to a blue bar homer that the tail will not stand up as much, and still have the blue bar pattern.
> CJ. Thomas*


What about pairing them with blue bar Fantails?

I like the subtle tail with blue bar pattern that I have in these two. I'd like to develop it in a blue bar pattern and see what happens to the tail. Is it possible to develop a strain this way?

Daniel


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

you can go to the bared fan then back to the parent birds or to the oppiste bird that you wish to use to set your tail. breeding back to a bared fan will change the tail some what but going back to the other cross will change it agin. So its a time prosess raise young 6 montrh later remate 6 montrh later the same. The funnel tail and reduced tail feathers will not take long to set. Remember you have to build a family. So you need to work on several crosses to have ewnough to work with.


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by abbott75:
> *i would LOVE to see pics of your birds! are they kept outside (no cage) or in a loft?*



They are in a cage inside my apt. They are both hens and will lay infertile eggs living with each other. They spend most of their day sitting on the eggs they have laid. Pigeon mating and flocking behavior is fascinating!

I'll see if I can get some shots. Sorry this is taking so long.

Daniel


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by abbott75:
> *just wondering if you have pics yet???*


Sorry folks: ) I have been remiss beyond remiss. I'll see what I can do this weekend.

My "girls" decided to become a same sex pair. They lay eggs for each other and sit side by side in their cage nesting their eggs. Of course they are never fertile so there is no worry about having to use plastic eggs. Isn't science wonderful!

One has been extremely shy with me but lately she has started warming up I think mostly because she knows I have treats.

I haven't decided whether to encourage them to pair off with male pigeons. Unlike the full Fantails they're flight skills are far superior and may do better outside in my aviary with the regulars. So, we'll see how it goes.

I guess I'll have to get those pics I've been promising!

Does anyone know of a way to post them to pigeons.com?

Daniel


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Daniel,

At present there is not a way to post pictures here at pigeons.com. You will need to go to webshots or one of the other free photo sites, post your pictures, and then post the URL here.

Terry Whatley


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Well, I've had a slightly disturbing development with my two science experiment birds. Both of them have turned somewhat lethargic and gave gained considerable weight in the past few days.

Normally they get out and mad dash around the living room like two little bullets then fly to me for treats. Yesterday they would not do anything and would barely fly a short distance.

I wondered if their lack of interest and pep was because they are nesting right now - both have laid sterile eggs because they are a same sex pair. They've laid eggs before but have never seemed so depressed. They also seem a little plump or bigger. None of my birds have ever behaved this way before.

I wondered if they have been exposed to a toxin (there is rat poison in the attic) 
or if they have gram negative thing going on. They never go outside so it can't be any outdoor disease.


My vet is not in today so I can't even call to find out what might be wrong...

Daniel


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I promised to get pictures of my girls for you to see. Well, here they are:
http://community.webshots.com/user/scuiry 

Would someone please tell me if they have ever seen this trait in a pigeon before? The girls somehow (miraculously?) hatched a baby with the same distinctive tail trait.

Could I have accidentally developed a new strain?

Many thanks,

Daniel


[This message has been edited by Scuiry (edited October 24, 2003).]


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I couldn't delete this post. You don't need to go to FPRC. Try Webshots!

Daniel

[This message has been edited by Scuiry (edited October 14, 2003).]


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I added one more photo a close up of Fan Fan. See pic #15 at the end of the album. Best shot of all.
http://community.webshots.com/user/scuiry 

Enjoy!

[This message has been edited by Scuiry (edited October 16, 2003).]


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

If you don't want to bother with FPRC, you can also try here:
http://community.webshots.com/user/scuiry 

More will be added next week.

Daniel


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Found this site:
http://community.webshots.com/user/scuiry 

You can see my part-Fantails. Try the slide show presentation.

Have you ever seen tails like theirs on a pigeon? Would really like to know.

Thanks all!

Daniel


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Just hoping someone can tell me if my birds could be a new strain...

Many thanks,

Daniel


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Daniel!

Fan Fan and little Fan are quite adorable. How wonderful that you can keep them indoors!

I'm sorry, but I can't help you out with the pigeon geneology, but the fan tails are great! You either have a male and female, or two females that had contact with a male! 

Thanks for posting the pictures, I enjoyed checking out your babies and their indoor living arrangements, I wish I could keep mine indoors!
Treesa


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by Trees Gray:
> *Hi Daniel!
> 
> Fan Fan and little Fan are quite adorable. How wonderful that you can keep them indoors!
> ...


I can assure you keeping them indoors is endless work.

They are both hens and one of them must have gotten to the male two cages up. Both hens are weaning the baby. The baby is a white speckle with the same tail trait as the hens.

I'm wondering if I have new strain or if this has been seen before in other crosses?

Many thanks,

Daniel


----------



## screamingeagle (Oct 16, 2002)

I don't know anything about genetics, but it seems that if every baby ends up with the same trait, and breeding between babies with the trait keeps it, then my guess would be that you indeed have a new strain. Do some research on how people have developed new strains, maybe you can get it going strong. Wasn't that how the Seraphim pigeon got started? Someone just messing around, then carefully breeding the strains they liked??

PS- how many pigeons do you have indoors? And do they fly all over the house? For how long, and does it get messy? I have 2 indoor pigeons, and when they are nesting, it gets pretty messy. usually ends up on the fridge. . . really trying to get them potty trained!

Idea- try introducing some new colors into the trait.

Good luck!

Suzanne


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Hi Suzanne,

The tail is developing just like the two half-fans. It's pretty spooky. Whatever male got to the hen it could not have been a Fantail. In any case I have a white speckle with that disinctive tail trait.

I have a dozen birds indoors and believe me it is MESSY. I do let them fly around but not all at once and only under my supervision. The Fantails adjust better to confinement than the "commies". But the dust, feathers, seed and cage smell is a challenge. I started out with two. Fantails stay close to their roost. The half-Fantails are like their commie cousins and fly all over the place so I have to keep a close eye on them.

I don't know if this tail trait is distinctive or whether it's been seen before. That's why I'm posting this question to pigeons.com. If it really is an attractive show-trait I would like to develop it. I don't want to waste my time breeding a trait that nobody wants.

If I knew somebody locally whom I could trust to adopt my pigeons I would be tempted experiment more with this "strain". I've run out of cage, aviary and apartment space for any more birds









Daniel


----------



## piko (Nov 2, 2003)

bird should not be used in science experements

from piko


----------



## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

I haven't seen a post since Oct. Is the "miracle baby" still alive and kicking? There is a phenomenon called parthenogenesis whereby a non-fertilized egg develops into an embryo. It is usually not always as vigorous as it's parent but will be genetically identical. I'm very curious to see how the baby is doing. Also, I see in some of your pictures that the same-sex pair have been allowed to fly free with some other birds at some time. Was one of them a male? Trysts can happen quickly sometimes...

------------------
Jerry H.


----------



## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

Oops,...I'm new to this site and just discovered this thread was two pages long...that was why I had not seen a post since Oct. Please bear with me while I learn.

------------------
Jerry H.


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

> Originally posted by Jerry:
> *Oops,...I'm new to this site and just discovered this thread was two pages long...that was why I had not seen a post since Oct. Please bear with me while I learn.
> 
> *



That's interesting - I don't remember getting a message that someone had replied.

The baby is now a youngster, fully flighted white with small black patches behind the upper part of its wings at the base of the neck.

I call her ,"Sunspot". She is a little smaller than the hen(s). The tail slightly less pronounced but is bordered with perfectly symmetrical black patterns along the middle and the tip or edge which makes a pretty display in flight. You actually cannot tell it has Fantail ancestry but it has slightly more tail feathers than a common pigeon.

I actually do not know who the father is. There are two candidates because the hens are very much taken by Blue Bird and Max - both near charcoal/blue spreads.

I have a slight complication with Sunspot. She was raised indoors but I have no more room for her. The parents kicked her out for the last time this weekend so I put her in the aviary for the first time this morning. I don't know how she will do because the weather just turned 50's. She has been on a steady diet of small seeds, Harrison's and hemp. The aviary pigeons are on racing mix. None of my Fantails will touch racing mix so with the colder weather and the diet change this may be a major adjustment for her.

With few exceptions none of the common variety pigeons in my flock are tame. At some point they all forget and will have nothing to do with me. Same for Sunspot. She was a sweetie for weeks and would fly to me for safety or curiosity. Now she wants almost nothing to do with me. I hate putting them in the aviary because eventually they all turn completely wild. Only my Fantails and a couple common variety pigeons will have anything to do with me







Does anyone know if this is typical? Are fancy strains easier to tame and make pets than racing stock or "commies"?

Daniel


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello,

My homing pigeons are still afraid of me, even though I feed them, give them water, and have been around them for 3 years! Even their babies (my young birds) grunted at me when I came to clean out their nests every single day this summer. 

They seem to be very protective when I go to their cubbies and pick them up. I'm tresspassing on their turf, and they feel threatened and grunt at me. You would think they would get over that.

My two babies, Skye and Sonic, whom I hand raised,(born last year) still fly to my shoulder and my head. They come to me everytime I enter the coop. 

I have two darling Satinettes, who seem to be more tame by nature...and two Rollers who are not so scared. Maybe a different breed makes a difference.

When I bring them all raw peanuts, then they suddenly become my friends, it's like night and day. I started hand feeding them, too, to get them more tame, and that has helped but then they are not in their cubbies either. 
Treesa


----------



## slugmonkey (Nov 10, 2003)

There is a thread about inbreeding under 
the topic of racing pigeons entitled "should I inbreed" their is some interesting theory in it


----------

