# Lump/Knob growing on top nostril



## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi All,

About a year ago a lady saw my dove and pigeon in my car at night while I saw shopping and approached me regarding a pigeon she had found and wanted to give away. I offered to take the pigeon in and have been taking care of him this whole time. It is a male old dutch capuchine and is very friendly and lovely.

When given to us his beak/nostrils were normal, but months in I noticed a small knob/lump/welt? forming close to his nostril. I was not sure if it was normal or not since I have seen pictures of pigeons with crusty skin around the nostrils and eyes online, so I did not give much thought of it. However, the knob is getting larger and it has led me to wonder if it could be something bad.

I looked through the forum briefly and I am wondering if this knob could be avian pox, carcinoma, or sinus canker?

The lady was taking really good care of the pigeon. She turned one of her windows into a cage of sorts, lining the metal bars on the window with a metal mesh and adding wooden sticks for perching. The birdies basically slept outside when the window was closed and when opened they could fly inside the home.

The capuchine lived with x2 cockatiels and x2 love birds. The lady said she caught him after a neighbor let him go and would perch on a power line/tree nearby most of the day. She had a lot of problems going on with his husband and just could not take care of him anymore.

There is a small hole injury on that same nostrils that I think the capuchine received from maybe the lovebird or something else. When given to me there was no blood or swelling there so it was likely and old let over puncture. 

I want to catch this sooner than later if its bad. He doesn't act sick or anything and I think eats well enough and drinks water. Likes having a lot of attention.

I checked the inside of his beak and the mouth lining looks good.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could be pox, but if he has had it for some time, and no other nodules on him, then it probably isn't pox. Not canker. Could also be some kind of tumor. How long has it been there?


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Could be pox, but if he has had it for some time, and no other nodules on him, then it probably isn't pox. Not canker. Could also be some kind of tumor. How long has it been there?


Hey there,

We've had the Capuchine for a little less than a year. When it was given to us he did not have that growth. I am not exactly sure how long he was growth free, but perhaps about 2-3 months I would guess. That could give it a time window of growth for about 6 months or so. It has been growing slowly, but certainly is has grown. I don't see any other growths at least not any that are above feathers. I did check the inside of the mouth and it looks good to me. Had I known this was not normal I would have mentioned it sooner in the forums but I had seen other pigeons before online that have crusting skin around the eye and nostrils and thought perhaps this was just part of the capuchine . He is very friendly and it makes me sad this i happening to him.

Also the feathers that grew around that area of the nostril seem to not grow anymore  not sure if maybe it is the pressure of the growth or what it might be.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some kind of tumor or abscess I guess. An avian vet could check it. I would think it must be uncomfortable for him.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Some kind of tumor or abscess I guess. An avian vet could check it. I would think it must be uncomfortable for him.


Hi Jay,

Upon feeling the growth with the skin on my finger tip it feels like it is hard like bone. It doesn't really seem to feel like a pocket filling with fluid. To my sensation it almost felt like it was bone. So it is pretty hard. The skin on top is soft, but almost immediately after pressing it feels hard and it made me think for whatever reason 'bone'. 

Your thoughts?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't think it's bone. A tumor or abscess can be hard. Even if filling up with puss. In a bird, that would be solid, not wet like with people.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Do you have an avian vet who could look at it? Where do you live? We have a fantastic vet who is in Oakley, CA. You might be able to email them and see if they might give an opinion, for a reasonable fee.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

cwebster said:


> Do you have an avian vet who could look at it? Where do you live? We have a fantastic vet who is in Oakley, CA. You might be able to email them and see if they might give an opinion, for a reasonable fee.


Thanks Jay for letting me know about the hardness of the abscess

I am located in Rosemead California which I think is basically Los Angeles County  Someone suggested Greek & Associates Vet hospital. I really don't know any vet hospitals  The reviews look good on this one at yelp at least. I want to tackle this before it gets worse for the Capuchine as to minimize his suffering.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please let us know how it goes.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Bad news. I took the Capuchine to Greek and Associates. I shared with doctor moore that the pigeon community did not think it was pigeon pox, canker, or cancer... that it could be abscess or tumor. She agree that it could be that, so she took the capuchine to the back and poked the growth with a needle and squeezed. She said nothing came out, just a little blood, so that it could potentially be a tumor. She also said it could possibly be really thick abscess or something along those lines. Another thing is that she said if it is a tumor then it would likely need surgery, but she is not thrilled about that.

She said that birds don't do well after surgery. She says that they do well during and before, but that when they awake their heart begin to race and usually get a heart attack. Their heart stops. The survival rate is not very good. 

She said that recently they went to a meeting for birds and surgical proceedures and there was one person who spoke and was a specialized avian vet and said that usually survival rates for him and birds has been about 20% when doing surgery. 

She said chickens and pigeons are the best in terms of survival when compared with other birds.

She prescribed anti biotics and told us to keep track of the size of the tumor. That if it grows more even with the anti biotics then it could be a problem. 

0.1ml orally twice daily

enrofloxacin suspension 50mg/ml

Surgery is in the ball park of $400 and on. Survival rate said it was aroun 50%, but I think she was just trying to be optimistic since she said the avian vet specialist shared his survival rate of about 20% for birds he had treated.



I also found a sparrow's nest with a dead sparrow today at the gym. I picked the little guy up in his next and have him in my car. Just drove him to yorbalinda. It is a baby and I felt that it did not get a chance to explore the world. I felt maybe his spirit could feel something similar by traveling with me today. I hope my actions are worth something for this little passed away baby.


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

FlyingPigeon said:


> She said that recently they went to a meeting for birds and surgical proceedures and there was one person who spoke and was a specialized avian vet and said that usually survival rates for him and birds has been about 20% when doing surgery.


That sounds wrong, but I'll have to actually research it. Passerines will definitely have problems with surgery, plus whatever caused the need for surgery in the first place is likely deadly or debilitating. But larger birds, like raptors, corvids, waterfowl (even little teals), woodpeckers, etc. seem to do just fine. I honestly can't think of a single bird who died because of surgery. Two of my pigeons had orthopedic surgery with no issues. (It didn't actually fix the problems, but it didn't hurt them.) I even know a tiny pygmy owl who had multiple surgeries to remove tumors and he was just fine.

The lump doesn't seem to be hurting him now, I wouldn't be too worried about it if it isn't growing.

E: I can't find any numbers on survival rates, but it seems like that was the case 20-30 years ago. Now, it's not much more dangerous than putting any other animal under. You would certainly want to find an experienced avian surgeon though, and not someone with that low of a survival rate!
I wonder what kind of birds that vet specialized in? If it's wild bird, and they include euthanasia because they are unreleasable after recovery, then that sounds reasonable. But 20% survival just from anesthesia is absurd.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

bootface said:


> E: I can't find any numbers on survival rates, but it seems like that was the case 20-30 years ago. Now, it's not much more dangerous than putting any other animal under. You would certainly want to find an experienced avian surgeon though, and not someone with that low of a survival rate!
> I wonder what kind of birds that vet specialized in? If it's wild bird, and they include euthanasia because they are unreleasable after recovery, then that sounds reasonable. But 20% survival just from anesthesia is absurd.


Hi Bootface,

I am not sure what to tell you. This is actually the very first time I have ever gone to a vet. Ms. Moore said that at the avian meeting they spoke about survival rates for birds when needing surgery and that a specialized avian vet spoke and said his survival rates was 20%. She emphasized that this individual was a avian vet and mentioned the number again. 

I am just as confused since at the end of the check up I asked her what she thought the survival rates for the capuchine would be and she said about 50%. She also mentioned that out of the birds pigeons and chickens have the best survival rates. The price was going to be about $400 or so. 

She did say that if it is abscess that is should get smaller with the antibiotics and that if it is a tumor that it won't help at all. I am hoping that it is abscess in the end since she said that perhaps, because the growth is so big and hard, that she could not squeeze any abscess out after poking it with a needle.

She also said that is was quite large at this point, but that even if I had brought the capuchine earlier that she would have first prescribed antibiotics and to monitor it's growth. She said that even then she did not like the idea of surgery due to survival rates.

I'm also going to add on his growth a little bit of neosporin that is an antibiotic cream that contains neomycin, polymyxin B, and bacitracin used to prevent infections since I don't want for the needle poke on his growth to get infected. I just don't want there to be any chance for that. 

I did not ask Ms. Moore if she was specialized in avian animals... which I really should have. I will send an e-mail asking that and hopefully receive an answer.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's true that pigeons and other birds do get surgery done all the time, usually with good results. If that particular surgeon can't do the surgery, then they usually will send you to a specialist. Or ask you to go to one.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hi! I sent you a private message. Our vet did very successful abdominal surgeries to remove xanthomas from our birds internal organs and she did fine. Please email Dr Speer for an opinion and maybe referral to a specialist in your area.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> It's true that pigeons and other birds do get surgery done all the time, usually with good results. If that particular surgeon can't do the surgery, then they usually will send you to a specialist. Or ask you to go to one.


Thank you Jay. Ms. Moore said to try the antibiotics first and she gave the Capuchine the first drop in his beak at the clinic. I will be doing the rest of the drops and just told me to be careful to not drop it in the air way. She said the pigeons have their air way opening further forward, like under the chin area?, and that I should aim to place the small syringe as close and in the back of the throat as possible. 

One thing I remember her saying is that birds were I don't remember if she said frustrating or difficult when having surgery done. Because of the survival reasons she mentioned. That they go fine through sedation and surgery, but upon waking their heart rate goes way up and their heart stops and thus the survival rate was not very good. I think the word she used was difficult or frustrating but it wasn't very encouraging to hear for me . 

Anyway at this point we are just hoping a miracle happens and the antibiotics clear the capuchine growth or minimize it. I'm also thinking on giving the capuchine more out time under the sun and maybe a drop of lemon in his water for some vitamin C. On top of the neosporin for the needle poke.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Here is an update.

After the poke from the needle by the vet the growth became swollen and irritated. On that same day I bought some Neosporin anti biotic as a precaution to help minimize any sort of infection on the injury. I was also given oral anti biotics from the vet to be given every 12 hrs. I gave the capuchine the oral anti biotics every 12hrs and began a regimen of applying Neosporin on the growth/puncture 3 times a day.

I was hoping for the inflamation of the growth to go down but it hasn't it is now at it's biggest size yet. I am not sure if the growth is still injured/swollen, but it has been 4 days and I am losing hope. It seems like the growth will now remain this size... and might even get bigger. It seems poking/injuring it just makes the thing grow much more. 

I don't know if I am calling things too early, but I feel it is not good in terms of sign. One thing I noticed also is that is has changed colors somewhat. Before when it was smaller it was, I think, the same colors as the skin around that area. Now it is almost looking like it shifts between a rosy color and a somewhat white/milky/yellow ish color. 

These images were on the day the growth was poked by the vet:



















And these other two 

are of of now


















I'm not sure if you guys can tell the color change, but I think that there is some. The size is bigger I don't know what to think of this. I am giving him the oral anti biotics and a tiny bit of nosporin on the puncture. I'm also giving him a drop of lemon in his water once a day. Any input is greatly welcomed.

And I'm sorry cwebster I haven't been able to reach out the vet I have been swarmed with things to do. I will try to do it asap


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Just send him an email and the photo and see if he is willing to say whether he thinks it is serious. Our girl had two weird pink pea sized growths near her beak we thought were pox. Dr Speer said they were just benign growths and not to worry. Keep us posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Those little benign growths don't get large like that. That's a different thing.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am wondering if it is some kind if cyst. Our vet cleaned out a cyst on our guinea pig last weekend. Hope it is something treatable and that he is all better soon.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi all,

Just received a respond by Dr. Speer 



> The overall appearance of those lesions is certainly suggestive of considerations including Pox, bacterial abscessation, and a few other atypical things.
> 
> An accurate diagnosis can be obtained via surgical biopsy, with a combination of cytology, aerobic culture, wetmount examinations and histopathology from obtained samples. Not all of these maneuvers necessarily will be required, but they all can be considered once representative samples can be obtained.
> 
> I think you have heard some inaccurate thoughts about anesthesia in birds. Although there always are some potential risks with anesthesia, for a procedure such as we would contemplate here should carry overall minimal risk. Is there a specialist in your area that your veterinarian may be willing to refer you to for diagnosis and focused treatment?


I am unsure if Biopsy is the same as complete surgical removal? If it is the same as complete removal then I think there really is no other choice at this point?


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

A biopsy is the taking of a small sample specifically for laboratory testing to see what organisms the cells contain. Once they know what they're dealing with your bird can be medicated appropriately. I hope they can find a treatment plan for the pretty little babe.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with FredaH. A biopsy is taking a small piece, not the whole thing. It would show fir sure if it is a pox lesion, abscess, or some kind of weird growth. Unless it is growing at a very fast rate you can see if the antibiotics will help first. It could be an abscess. If it is pox it will dry and fall off eventually. If it is a weird growth it will keep growing. Would ask him to refer you to an avian specialist near you. Plus if you do get a tiny biopsy sample and report, ask him uf he will give you an analysis and treatment options? He is one of the worlds best avian specialists.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It can't be pox the way it has been growing. And he has had this a while.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi all,

I received a reply with a referral for a specialist and the Dr. shared his thoughts on the survival rates for birds:



> Viewing the location(s) of the lesions in the photos, it appears to my eyes that complete removal (excisional biopsy) would be challenging, at best - and probably not possible.
> 
> Honestly, a somewhat empirical anesthesia survival rate of 50% just seems wrong on many levels. Across the board here, with all anesthetic procedures performed in approximately 750 patients encompassing 101 species here over 5 years, we had approximately a 7% mortality rate. This included euthanasia decisions that were made intraoperatively, as well as efforts against all odds to surgically achieve a resolution of the problem. Procedures entailing biopsy procedures such as this carried a 1-2% mortality rate, off the top of my head. I would doubt seriously if a board certified specialist would quote such a poor survivability rate of only 20%. This is not supported by the literature, and not by our experience here. The greatest causes of mortality immediately following anesthetic procedures include pain, hypothermia, and hypotension. These for the most part, can be mitigated with experienced anesthesia and pain management prior to the procedure, during the procedure and afterwards.
> 
> ...


I am wondering what could be done aside from anti biotics if complete removal of the growth is very challenging and just not possible? Are there other specific medicines that can be given for tumors?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

First you need the vet to remive a tiny tiny piece and see what it is. It still looks like an abscess to me. Tumors in birds are very different from in people.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Let them test it and go from there. Find out what it is first.


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## FlyingPigeon (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi All,

The lump got bigger and white in color like in the pictures. Then it got a little yellow and began to crust. Then it started to harden and/or dry. I woke up the other morning and the capucchine had scrubbed off part of the growth. What was left was something like dry cream cheese or white bread. I removed it with an eye brow picker thing and what was left was a hole in the capucchine's nose. It has been about 2 days or 3 and the hole has pretty much closed. The capucchine looks really good now.

On the other hand I ended up getting an abscess, but I don't think it was related to the capuchine. I think I got it from my gym. Anyway, now the capuchine and I are both on bactrim/bacitricin anti biotics lol. 

I don't know if what the capucchine had was an abscess, but it is gone now. I had an abscess about 10 years ago which I never wen to the doctor to take care of and it just broke and drained by itself, but I never did squeeze the pus out. It left a scar on my shoulder and i've had in the past 10 years maybe 2 small relapses. This other abscess is up my leg close to the glute. I still think I got it from the gym.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wow. Glad he's finally doing better. Hope yours is better soon also.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad hes better now. Hope he heals quickly now.


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