# More Peta Crap



## g-pigeon (Aug 24, 2010)

Now there claiming illegal gambling.

They just want to cause problems



http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...imillion-illegal-enterprise-article-1.1069610


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## Hareloft (Jun 26, 2011)

where is this millions of dollars other than one loft races.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

They want the donations to keep rolling in so they can continue to pay themselves those over sized salaries.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Like we believe they are a non-profit organization,


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

They make sure there are no profits by increasing their own salaries. From what I can find out it's run by a crime organization. I remember reading that somewhere but I don't remember the source.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Gambling in general is illegal in NC. I don't know about anywhere else. Therefore, you play poker, bet on birds or horses, bet your friend you can kick their butt at video games, you're kinda technically breaking the law.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

As for one loft races and such, if you're conducting it as a business you need to pay taxes, but as a sport I don't think you have to. It may be you need to even if you pay out all the entry money as prizes, which would explain calling money "points" to stay under the radar of the IRS. I'm not sure.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> As for one loft races and such, if you're conducting it as a business you need to pay taxes, but as a sport I don't think you have to. *It may be you need to even if you pay out all the entry money as prizes,* which would explain calling money "points" to stay under the radar of the IRS. I'm not sure.


 If there are no profits, then how can there be taxes ? One Loft events send out W9 forms, so the individual may have a tax liability depending on what deductions the individual tax payer may have. The owner of the One Loft event may show a profit or a loss, heck of a lot of expenses in running such an event. If you show a loss in most years, then IRS will classify your "racing pigeon business" as a hobby. Prize winnings are all on the up and up, no reason to "stay under the radar". 

On a misc note, our state of Pennsylvania is involved in many aspects of the gambling business. We have horse tracks, casinos, off track betting, and maybe as many as fifty different lottery games of chance that they sell. Even private clubs like a VFW can sell small games of chance, and of course there is fire hall and church bingo. As long as the forms are filled out, and the state gets their cut, then everyone is happy. There are even bowling leagues where for an entry fee, you can bowl in a team, and maybe even win OMG !!! Cash !!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Hey PETA/PITIFULL Org......How about horse racing ????......Alamo


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## JRNY (Nov 17, 2009)

This is the way they get there donations. Celebrities beleive there crap and dump millions of dollars for there life style. Do you think its right to shoot a horse because they broke a leg. Go after horse racing. Pigeon races where here before PETA. Give me a brake. Ingrid Newkirk must be broke .


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*PETA and PORN*



g-pigeon said:


> Now there claiming illegal gambling.
> 
> They just want to cause problems
> 
> ...


With the millions that PETA has rolling in, they are investing some of these proceeds in porn sites and what not. The argument they make for doing so, is because it get's people's attention. I think they are just running out of places to put the cash, where they can generate even more cash. 

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/201...tment-animals-factory-farms-animal-rights.htm

They plan to show porn and then every once in awhile, they will flash in pictures of animals being killed in some way. Sounds like some kind of dark twisted perversion to me. Maybe good old fashioned animal welfare like they used to do, just does not pay as good ?


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

The IF & AU and all the other pigeon organizations,should invest in countering Peta`s promotion against pigeon keepers....I`m sure the lawyers on OUR SIDE,can dig up some dirt on Peta,and give it to the news stations on TV etc....Fight fire with fire !!! Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> The IF & AU and all the other pigeon organizations,should invest in countering Peta`s promotion against pigeon keepers....I`m sure the lawyers on OUR SIDE,can dig up some dirt on Peta,and give it to the news stations on TV etc....Fight fire with fire !!! Alamo


 I don't think any digging needs to be done. Starting a porn site which will mix human sexuality with video of animal cruelty sounds like they have found a profitable way to exploit sadism. These folks have simply left the reservation and need serious therapy. They are very sick people.


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## g-pigeon (Aug 24, 2010)

lets make Peta Happy. we will never eat meat, we will not eat dairy, we will not wear leather or wool. we will not test medicines on animals which is a win win more people will die, and there will be more room for animals. But my question is what about all the poor vegetables that will be dying if we don't eat meat. They are also a living thing?
These people are fanatics just like terrorist that believe they can kill innocent people and they are justified. Its a shame so many people buy into there crap and they can exist and draw huge salaries


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

g-pigeon said:


> lets make Peta Happy. we will never eat meat, we will not eat dairy, we will not wear leather or wool. we will not test medicines on animals which is a win win more people will die, and there will be more room for animals. But my question is what about all the poor vegetables that will be dying if we don't eat meat. They are also a living thing?
> These people are fanatics just like terrorist that believe they can kill innocent people and they are justified. Its a shame so many people buy into there crap and they can exist and draw huge salaries


 I am afraid that like most extremists, they are never satisfied. 

http://www.adl.org/Learn/Ext_US/Ecoterrorism.asp

In recent years, an increasing amount of terrorist activity in the United States has been carried out in the name of animal and environmental protection. Automobile dealerships, housing developments, forestry companies, corporate and university-based medical research laboratories, restaurants, fur farms and other industries are targeted across the country. Although no one has yet been injured in a domestic ecoterror attack, the increasingly violent nature of attacks suggests that someone will be hurt before long.

Since the 1970s, hundreds of groups in the United States have advocated for stricter legal protection for animals and the environment. Change has been incremental. Some activists on the fringes of these causes, frustrated by the pace of legislation, have become violent, creating an underground terrorist movement to combat companies and practices they consider abusive and immoral. *During the past two decades, extreme animal rights and environmental activists, or ecoterrorists, have committed hundreds of arsons, bombings and acts of vandalism and harassment, causing more than $100 million in damage.*

In recent years, fast-food restaurants have been firebombed and car dealerships and housing developments burned to the ground in the name of "ecology" and "animal rights." Increasingly, people that work for companies perceived as harming animals or destroying the environment are targeted as well.

Influenced to varying degrees by their English predecessors and by segments of the anarchist movement, ecoterrorists operate through autonomous cells, are unconstrained by geographic boundaries and are very difficult to infiltrate and stop. Unlike racial hate groups with established hierarchies and membership requirements, for example, an activist can become a member of the ecoterror movement simply by carrying out an illegal action on its behalf.

While post-September 11 discussions of terrorism tend to focus on Islamic threats, ecoterrorist attacks continue to occur around the country and pose significant problems for law enforcement officials. It is unlikely that this movement will disappear any time soon.

-------

Before it established a press office in the U.S., ALF activities were frequently publicized by *People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA),* a Norfolk, Virginia-based animal rights organization whose controversial advertisement campaigns have generated substantial publicity since the group's founding in 1980. PETA has openly supported ALF: in 1995, the organization gave $45,200 to the legal defense of Rod Coronado, while co-founder Ingrid Newkirk applauds ALF's efforts in two of her books.

-------


$50 Million Arson in San Diego, 2003


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a little peta story.

my co worker (we work at a vet hospital) lives in hampton va..(close to peta headquaters or what ever it is).. She came home from work and put her two dogs in her fenced back yard...she then saw a white van pull up to her drive on the side of the house..she could not see the company name on the van, but heard a knock on the door..she did not answer as she was home alone.. so she saw someone come around the side of the house and go to her back yard and throw something out there.. when they pulled out she saw the van saying PETA on the side of it. so she went and looked what was thrown out in her back yard to her dogs.. it was two rawhide chew bones. now you are saying what is the problem?..well the problem is my co worker does not allow her dogs to chew those as one of dogs has had a blockage and almost died from these exact same type chew bones.. our vet does not recommend them esp for aggressive chewers. so potenially if she really was not home peta could of killed her dog.

why would anyone go on someone's property and give a strangers pets things that may not beable to have or any dog should even have.. I guess these are the type of ignorant people they recruit or did they know the dangers of potenial lethal blockage this product can do?

but maybe that is what they wanted to happen so the "poor dog would not have to be a pet and live in a house and have a fenced in yard"....hmmmm


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

By that same taken though, folks feeding pigeons bread in the park are on the same level with PETA. I think a misguided concern is different from intentional "terrorist-like" activities. 

I think I've expressed how I really feel on the other thread. We need to make sure out arguments agains any organization stand the logic testing.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

If all these threads are to serve any useful purpose beyond letting off steam about PETA, maybe our fanciers should cool the emotion, start to use their heads and come up with a definite, sensible and achievable strategy to combat this stuff that's happening?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> here is a little peta story.
> 
> my co worker (we work at a vet hospital) lives in hampton va..(close to peta headquaters or what ever it is).. She came home from work and put her two dogs in her fenced back yard...she then saw a white van pull up to her drive on the side of the house..she could not see the company name on the van, but heard a knock on the door..she did not answer as she was home alone.. so she saw someone come around the side of the house and go to her back yard and throw something out there.. when they pulled out she saw the van saying PETA on the side of it. so she went and looked what was thrown out in her back yard to her dogs.. it was two rawhide chew bones. now you are saying what is the problem?..well the problem is my co worker does not allow her dogs to chew those as one of dogs has had a blockage and almost died from these exact same type chew bones.. our vet does not recommend them esp for aggressive chewers. so potenially if she really was not home peta could of killed her dog.
> 
> ...


*
*

Oh Brother!....that's ridiculous!
My sister, *who has not a thing to do with PETA*, does the same sort of thing and I find it quite annoying. My dog can't have rawhide for exactly the same reason you have shared and I understand the danger. Most people don't understand though.There is a Pit Bull that never gets inside, out in cold weather without adequate shelter, shivers in the cold... that especially tugs at her heart. From her perspective, she's helping although I have suggested it's not such a good idea and told her why.
Some people, be they PETA or not, just would like to add a little joy to a dog's life that they may perceive to be lacking in even basic comfort. 
From my observation, there are far more animals out there in less than adequate situations, than animals that are in situations that are good.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

annoying is the least of it.

quote: from Nathan j winograd,

article. MY DISTURBING ENCOUNTER WITH THE MIND OF PETA.

"I was in Los Angeles for a speaking engagement when three PETA employees approached me. One employee explained to me that animals don’t need to be suffering in order for him to be justified in killing them. He then explained that he has the right to round up and kill cats, even if they are not suffering, simply because he “believes” they might suffer. In fact, he said that no matter the circumstances, killing is not unethical—even convenience killing—because it is just like being put under anesthesia for spay/neuter, with the only difference being that the animal never wakes up. – Los Angeles, CA, March 13, 2012."


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

That's disturbing.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

How is that not a lethal cull?


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

exsactly what I said, nothing they say makes sence. they fight anyone doing stuff. however as a group or origanization can do the same thing and it's justified. I think mabe we should have the right to cull them?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> That's disturbing.


Almost to the point of being psychotic


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Another I find pretty crazy, too ...excerpt from a blog:



> One day a couple of years ago when a friend whose candid assessments helped me to decide to choose a school and get my own guide dog, was getting off the subway and beginning to walk to her office, she found herself surrounded by a group of outspoken demonstrators who identified themselves as representing PETA.
> 
> "How dare you treat that dog so cruelly!" one of the PETA group screamed at her. "You ought to be ashamed!" another chimed in.
> 
> ...


http://community.gettinghired.com/b...and-guide-dogs-peta-get-your-facts-right.aspx


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

I would of done some thing drastic in that case. I'm a blunt strait to the point and I don't like being surounded by morons.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I know a woman who wears a rawhide bra. It heads em up and moves em out!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

beatlemike said:


> I know a woman who wears a rawhide bra. It heads em up and moves em out!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

beatlemike said:


> I know a woman who wears a rawhide bra. It heads em up and moves em out!


Theyve used them since prehistoric times - they were then known as "over shoulder boulder holsters"


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

g-pigeon said:


> Now there claiming illegal gambling.
> 
> They just want to cause problems
> 
> ...



I think their claims are validated by the guys from the bronx pigeon club stating on camera that illegal gambling takes place



Alamo said:


> Hey PETA/PITIFULL Org......How about horse racing ????......Alamo


From what I have seen the do also target horse racing


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## bunnyrabbit (Aug 20, 2011)

Here you will see a group of IDIOTS!!!! that will probably cause me or you to loose what we all enjoy the most.

If you see your self in this video, may be next time you will think twice about the things you say and use discretion and whatever you do, keep it to your self because you are not only representing your self in the sport; you are representing all of us, and all of us in not like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4u4MA3eJnpo


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## bunnyrabbit (Aug 20, 2011)

*just a reply*

I apologized if I offended anyone in that post, but what I was trying to point out in that post is for those people who said a lot of things that they do, in the video that do not represent everyone. 

To people who is not educated in the sport, they will for sure will strayed away from sport or worst, some government in one states can shut down having to care for such animal. What i intended do do is to convey anyone who is involve in racing pigeon should used more discretion in things that they say because you never know who you are speaking to.

And what some person may say or acted the way they did on that video represents all racing pigeon fanciers, and not all are the same. That's is what I wanted to point out. Again apologized. Not my intention to provoke or offend others and I'm not trying to get a reply.


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## bunnyrabbit (Aug 20, 2011)

I apologized if I offended anyone in that post, but what I was trying to point out in that post is for those people who said a lot of things that they do, in the video that do not represent everyone. 

To people who is not educated in the sport, they will for sure will strayed away from sport or worst, some government in one states can shut down having to care for such animal. What i intended do do is to convey anyone who is involve in racing pigeon should used more discretion in things that they say because you never know who you are speaking to.

And what some person may say or acted the way they did on that video represents all racing pigeon fanciers, and not all are the same. That's is what I wanted to point out. Again apologized. Not my intention to provoke or offend others and I'm not trying to get a reply.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

ummm im going to be honest with my opinion.

I think that yes i agree peta are right on some points that some racer kill their YB if they didnt win...it is a shame for those pigeon racer who care about is the money. it is very obvious to me that what do racer do with their YB every year?? i know they breed alot and somehow by next year they got new one...so where is the last year birds??? 

many would argue that they sell it but to be honest who would want to buy pigeon or no winner birds??? definitely if i were to go around my neighborhood and try to sell my pigeon, 99% will probably reject me. 

some will argue that those YB didnt make it home from the race due to predation and weather issue....but still it doesnt make sense and contradiction because racer already train their birds to come home from far and long distances before the race and how can they prove that some birds just didnt make it home...?? typically, didnt you sent out your BEST birds??

In another view, if the racer kill their YB for food than i would disagree with peta. After all pigeon is still consider as food.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Anything peta is a slipery slope as they dont want anyone to have animals period .


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> ummm im going to be honest with my opinion.
> 
> I think that yes i agree peta are right on some points that some racer kill their YB if they didnt win...it is a shame for those pigeon racer who care about is the money. it is very obvious to me that what do racer do with their YB every year?? i know they breed alot and somehow by next year they got new one...so where is the last year birds???
> 
> ...


Summed up nicely I think!


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I still dont understand where some people get the notion that almost all the birds who dont return from a race perish. They are born with the instink to survive.
Just as our young birds are with the knowledge that hawks are danger. No one trains their young birds to beware of hawks but they are born with it. I still believe that the majority of birds who dont make it home do survive as well as the ferals. And to be honest,what would be so horrible about killing off the unwanted birds if used as food. We kill chickens and cattle by the tens of thousands everyday to be eaten. Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. PS. I never claimed I could spell well either.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree beatle mike - Lots survive. Some don't. I can see both sides I would just like some of the members that seem adiment their birds are never subject to any suffering to admit that no matter how well you try to protect all race birds. Not all will survive and some will suffer. 

So if we can do anything to make the sport better for the birds why not? And if PETA put it out there and raise awarness then we may see some change

p.s. I do not agree with their methods but the underlying message, although exaggerated by them is worthy of being put out there


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bunnyrabbit said:


> Here you will see a group of IDIOTS!!!! that will probably cause me or you to loose what we all enjoy the most.
> 
> If you see your self in this video, may be next time you will think twice about the things you say and use discretion and whatever you do, keep it to your self because you are not only representing your self in the sport; you are representing all of us, and all of us in not like you.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4u4MA3eJnpo


 A flock of idiots ? I have no idea who these people were suppose to be, their faces were not visible, and I don't know how these tapes may have been altered. Have no idea what really may have been said, or by who. For all I know, they were PETA actors. There have been PETA members who have joined some local clubs and maybe these were some of those PETA folks. Apparently it took 15 months to gather just a couple of mins of tape. Who knows how many hundreds or thousands of hours of tape were of no use to them, because they edited out any positive communications. Where are those tapes of PETA killing dogs in the back of a van ? Where are the PETA porn tapes ? Or the dog snuff films they plan to play on their porn site ? This so called 15 month "pigeon investigation" is laughable.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

well for one thing we don't teach our pigeons to come home its in there blood to wont to come home, we just get them in shape to come home, and yes I have two buddies that raises pigeons for food, so most of the ones I don't wont goes to him. 
as this PETA crap, well it will take money to bet money.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Pigeons that are medicated should not to be eaten....You can/should only eat UN-medicated birds...I will not eat my birds...I might eat yours,but not mine...
*If any PETA members eat any MEAT AT ALL,they are hypocrites...* And I would bet many of them do eat meat....

NOTE:As far as the video they have out,many of the words spoken by pigeon flyers is all to real,and truthfull...I will say that if someone talks to you,and asks questions,and the conversation lasts 30 minutes,PETA only broadcasts 10 or 15 seconds of your 30 minute conversation...They don`t show the world ALL THE GOOD that we are doing with these birds....I know some guys that fly birds a certain way...I don`t condone the pratice,I HATE THE PRATICE,and I have NEVER,or EVER will fly my birds in this manner....I made a statement to a pigeon guy,and a "civilian" person,who was undercover,recorded my words...In all the years that I have been around pigeons(70),this is the only pratice that makes me puke...I am on/in the video at the end...I am the guy with the grey pullover,and WV hat on....Those words are TRUE....I didn`t want the world to hear them...I only wanted a new pigeon guy to hear them...Not those meat eating PETA people...Is their gambling on pigeons ?? You know whether there is or not...Is there Powerball in your state ?? You know the answer to that....Is there a Casino in your state ?? You know the answer to that...Gambling is everywhere....Whether legit or not...Who here has NEVER been in a office pool,of some kind ?? Does PETA want to control the world ?? Are they communists ?? Maybe they are !!!! Alamo


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I watched that PETA propaganda clip that bunny posted and it seems odd to me that they would claim racing as "cruelty"? (of course how many hours of footage did they have to discard until they found someone to exploit)

Anyway, how is giving our birds the freedom to enjoy the open skies cruel? If the birds don't like their home they can choose to leave and join a new flock of course though then they have to deal with these SoarNoMore clowns! 

These guys brag about baiting and killing our birds (with no bag limit) and then wear their leg bands on strings around their necks like they did some brave thing. 

Where is the hidden video camera of the real animal killers?


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I never thought of that Alamo but you are so very well right. Most of the birds would taste like apple cider vinegar(yuk).


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## Vova (Mar 27, 2012)

I'v spent hundreds of dollars on my pigeons.. haven't made a penny off them


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This is a very damaging video for pigeon racing. Sadly, I KNOW a lot of the bad stuff is true. You guys and gals that race pigeons and show pigeons are the only ones who can change your image. I personally have friends who race and show pigeons, and they would NOT be my friends if they were not caring and responsible towards their birds. I know from experience that not all pigeon owners are like my friends .. thus pigeon fanciers have gotten a very bad reputation in the minds of many, and this PETA thing could and probably will be very, very bad for your sport and fancy. Sad to say that way too much bad stuff is true.

Terry


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Very well said Terry I know some of the bad people myself, but I don't think the government cares weather any body cull there birds. Now the gambling thats tax dollars and that they do care a lot about.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

The more I look at PETA, the more disgusting things I find out. There are numerous investigations going on concerning PETA themselves. 

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/dirtylaundry/

In once case, PETA employees were charged with felony animal cruelty. They were killing dozens of dogs in the back of a van and then dumping them in a dumpster. People have donated money thinking they were supporting animal welfare, but it seems it is simply more profitable to quickly kill the animals and move on to the next protest.

"New Documents: PETA Killed a Near Record-Breaking 95 Percent of Adoptable Dogs and Cats in its Care During 2011"


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The more I look at PETA, the more disgusting things I find out. There are numerous investigations going on concerning PETA themselves.
> 
> http://www.petakillsanimals.com/dirtylaundry/
> 
> ...


What has this got to do with pigeons, I am only reading about dogs in this post.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

It shows how hypocritical the animal rights organization can be condemning pigeon racing as cruelty, and then turning around and killing 95% of their"rescues". Killing animals in a van, and then dumping animals in a dumpster shows me that they have little, if any respect, for the animals they say they are protecting.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It could be looked at as hypocritical, Or we could look at the facts, Yes the dogs may be adoptable but without anyone to take them in what other choice do they have. Killing of animals take place every day for multiple reasons- Over population, Food etc.

Pigeon racing is a little different as these birds live through the experience of being crated, Released in a way that some will hit the ashphalt on the way out and then some of them get lost and die a slow painful death.

I personally do not see euthanasia as cruelty so I don't really see the hypocritical part.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Sooooooo, putting aside the pigeon racing, and putting aside the *95%* kill rate, which, if true, is worse than any other that I have read about, it is okay with you to leave euthanized animals in a dumpster? No respect, no concern for health issues, no showing any aspect of their animal rights dictates? * And how were they killing animals in a van* They have one of the biggest working budgets of any animal rights group so they should be abe to sponsor many no-kill shelters around the country. I can only wonder where your real priorities lie when it comes to animal welfare. As many have said, apparently the facts speak for themselves.

Now before you go getting all flippant, let's you and I just let this pass. We have both had our say here, and there's no need for you and I to start another dialogue about PETA.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't see how any one could stick up for PETA as they have been on the FBI watch list for several years. Can any one tell me of even one racing pigeon club or orginazion that is on the FBI watch list.
Dave


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> I don't see how any one could stick up for PETA as they have been on the FBI watch list for several years. *Can any one tell me of even one racing pigeon club or orginazion that is on the FBI watch list.
> Dave*





Roller clubs were a few years back for torturing and killing all those hawks...remember? 
I'll bet they are still being watched.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I just find PETA to be a money hungry and manipulative organization. Are they world wide or just in the States? 

As for the Roller Club being on the FBI watch list, that was just a few roller guys in one area. However, PETA pulls off all these stunts everywhere, all the time.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> I just find PETA to be a money hungry and manipulative organization. Are they world wide or just in the States?
> 
> As for the Roller Club being on the FBI watch list, *that was just a few roller guys in one area. *However, PETA pulls off all these stunts everywhere, all the time.


I believe PETA is world wide. ...just like us keepers of the pigeons.
The sting on roller keepers, killing Birds of Prey was a seven state investigation and lasted well more than a year.
Thousands of hawks and falcons where tortured and killed. One guy had a bucket full of talons that he was right proud of. Generally, they were not the least bit shy, bragging about what they did to the birds before they killed them nor how many they had killed.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Charis said:


> I believe PETA is world wide. ...just like us keepers of the pigeons.
> The sting on roller keepers, killing Birds of Prey was a seven state investigation and lasted well more than a year.
> Thousands of hawks and falcons where tortured and killed. One guy had a bucket full of talons that he was right proud of. Generally, they were not the least bit shy, bragging about what they did to the birds before they killed them nor how many they had killed.


That's horrible! I hope they paid a dear price for their activities. Do you remember the general area that this occurred: Midwest, south, west, etc?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Almondman...it was Washington, Oregon, California, Texas, Oklahoma and the other states i am unsure of. I do know there were clubs from 7 states involved. I think they got into a fair amount of trouble with jail time and fines. Personally, I don't think it was enough trouble.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> It could be looked at as hypocritical, Or we could look at the facts, Yes the dogs may be adoptable but without anyone to take them in what other choice do they have. Killing of animals take place every day for multiple reasons- Over population, Food etc.
> 
> Pigeon racing is a little different as these birds live through the experience of being crated, Released in a way that some will hit the ashphalt on the way out and then some of them get lost and die a slow painful death.
> 
> I personally do not see euthanasia as cruelty so I don't really see the hypocritical part.


 I truely find it unbelievable how you find any of this justifiable one way or the other


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Charis said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Roller clubs were a few years back for torturing and killing all those hawks...remember?
> I'll bet they are still being watched.


Well that was dumb yes I do remember. thanks
Dave


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Just providing some balance to a one sided attack on PETA - Just pointed out that euthanasia is a last resort but sometimes is the only option


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

PigeonVilla said:


> I truely find it unbelievable how you find any of this justifiable one way or the other


Some people may find it unbelievable that someone that professes to love and care for their animals would willingly box them up, send them hundreds of miles ( unnatural distances for a pigeon to fly ) and expect them to make it back in all sorts of wheather purely for their own enjoyment.

They know the dimise some of those birds face if they do not make it home - yet for their own benefit they carry on. 

Once again this is not my personal view but some people would see this as cruel - it is oongoing for the race birds too, Time and time again they get crated up and sent away.

So would we not be hypocritical to sit here and say PETA are one sided if we are not willing to look at the facts and take in both sides of the story?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Just providing some balance to a one sided attack on PETA - Just pointed out that euthanasia is a last resort but sometimes is the only option


That was not a last resort, they didn,t keep them and try to find homes. What they did was get them and kill them and through them into a dumpster.
Dave


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Charis said:


> Almondman...it was Washington, Oregon, California, Texas, Oklahoma and the other states i am unsure of. I do know there were clubs from 7 states involved. I think they got into a fair amount of trouble with jail time and fines. Personally, I don't think it was enough trouble.


Unfortunately, it never is. Thanks, Dave


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Some people may find it unbelievable that someone that professes to love and care for their animals would willingly box them up, send them hundreds of miles ( unnatural distances for a pigeon to fly ) and expect them to make it back in all sorts of wheather purely for their own enjoyment.
> 
> They know the dimise some of those birds face if they do not make it home - yet for their own benefit they carry on.
> 
> ...


We are to believe everything PETA says, because it's PETA, but not believe the facts of anyone that shows PETA in a bad light? hmmmm. What's wrong with that picture? You still haven't spoken out against killing animals in the van, and dumping the carcasses in a dumpster. Please explain that *fact* in a good light! And again, PETA has millions, couldn't they afford to sponsor some no-kill programs?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> It could be looked at as hypocritical, Or we could look at the facts, *Yes the dogs may be adoptable but without anyone to take them in what other choice do they have.* Killing of animals take place every day for multiple reasons- Over population, Food etc.
> 
> Pigeon racing is a little different as these birds live through the experience of being crated, Released in a way that some will hit the ashphalt on the way out and then some of them get lost and die a slow painful death.
> 
> *I personally do not see euthanasia as cruelty so I don't really see the hypocritical part.*


 I thought that one of the issues that PETA took exception to, was the alleged euthanasia of unwanted racing pigeons ? If it is no big deal to euthanize unwanted dogs, then why do they attempt to make an issue over the alleged euthanasia of unwanted racing pigeons ? Using your logic, "without anyone to take them in what other choice do they have", then what is the issue with pigeon fanciers who have unwanted birds ?

PETA attempts to make an issue over the fact that some pigeons fail to return home from a race. Yet when they target a mink farm or laboratory what do they do ? They release the animals into the wild and then often set the place on fire. There can be debate as to how well racing pigeons live in the wild, but shouldn't be any debate that farm raised mink or lab animals do not survive in the wild. 

Certainly would appear to me that they are the pot calling the kettle black. The only other issue, is the alleged gambling by a few individuals in a single club. You would think after 15 months of "investigation" that if there really was millions of $$ being bet, that more evidence then a couple of people with their faces blurred out saying "there is a lot of gambling". 

To the average typical person on the street. PETA's actions of killing animals they accepted donations to help rescue, and then vandalizing farms, ranches and labs, by turning farm raised animals into the wild, is exactly what they are accusing pigeon fanciers of doing. In my book, that would appear to be hypocritical. The pigeon fanciers are far more creditable in my book, then PETA, for one thing, as far as I know, no investigation has ever shown ties of pigeon clubs to terrorists, or to vandals. We are not on any terrorist watch group. 

*Those are the facts,* which PETA supporters try to divert attention from, because the way they generate their funds, is to pull on the heart strings of people, to send them money for "animal welfare", the money is then funneled to extremists groups, and the midnight killing of animals they were paid to care for. Far as I know, they have not set up a single loft to care for even a single unwanted homeless pigeon. 

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Eco...ubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=eco

During the past two decades, radical environmental and animal rights groups have claimed responsibility for hundreds of crimes and acts of terrorism, including arson, bombings, vandalism and harassment, causing more than $100 million in damage. While some activists have been captured, ecoterror cells - small and loosely affiliated - are extremely difficult to identify and most attacks remain unsolved. Although it has been overshadowed by Islamic terrorist threats since September 11, ecoterrorism remains one of the country's most active terrorist movements.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Well said!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> ...........So would we not be hypocritical to sit here and say PETA are one sided if we are not willing to look at the facts and take in both sides of the story?


 We show both sides here, we are providing the pigeon fancier's side of the story, because we are pigeon lovers who are also pigeon fanciers, and then there are members of Pigeon Talk like you, who provide the PETA perspective. That is what makes us different from the PETA site, as we are fair and balanced. If we conducted our affairs as PETA does, then all of your comments would have been deleted, and you would have been banned. 

Those are the facts, which demonstrates in my view that we are fair and balanced, and not hypocritical.


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## sunshineracinglofts (Sep 1, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> We show both sides here, we are providing the pigeon fancier's side of the story, because we are pigeon lovers who are also pigeon fanciers, and then there are members of Pigeon Talk like you, who provide the PETA perspective. That is what makes us different from the PETA site, as we are fair and balanced. If we conducted our affairs as PETA does, then all of your comments would have been deleted, and you would have been banned.
> 
> Those are the facts, which demonstrates in my view that we are fair and balanced, and not hypocritical.


yes sir, thats why i love this site, NZ opinions i dont agree with it at all on the subject, but im glad he says them, ONE: it makes for great debate,( great point and counter point affair,) and Warren is a good debater  TWO: IT provides two sides to the story.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Warren, almondman, and a few others are the kind PETA hate to debate as they can make them look bad. They would like to debate me, I just get pissed and then fumble my words and they win. So you guys keep up the good work 
Thanks, Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> Warren, almondman, and a few others are the kind PETA hate to debate as they can make them look bad. *They would like to debate me, I just get pissed and then fumble my words and they win*. So you guys keep up the good work
> Thanks, Dave


Same here! I get so mad I can't think straight  That's why I've kept my mouth shut.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Crazy Pete said:


> Warren, almondman, and a few others are the kind PETA hate to debate as they can make them look bad. They would like to debate me, I just get pissed and then fumble my words and they win. So you guys keep up the good work
> Thanks, Dave


 I am reminded of some liberal minded folks when discussing Al-Qaeda, the jihadist organization responsible for the September 11 attacks on the United States and numerous other mass-casualty attacks against civilian and military targets. They will say yes, I disagree with their actions, but what about the points they make ? After all, they will say "they have some valid points", to which I just want to tear my eyes out.  As I think about it, perhaps the same could be said about all terrorist groups and dictators who were mass murderers throughout history.They all may have had some points that some one could agree with. 

My view is that clever propaganda, will not cause me to condone their actions, nor does it necessarily represent what the facts actually are. Facts and opinions are two different things. 

If push comes to shove, I will always side with the pigeons and their fanciers. Because if I we were to follow the example of these PETA eco-terrorists, we all would have to euthanize our birds, so that they would not "have to suffer", which to me is a bit insane. Today it just happens to be racing pigeon fanciers, tomorrow it may be a fast food restaurant, or some of our pigeon rescue/rehab friends right here on PT. There is no negotiating with these people, they won't be satisfied until every animal of every stripe is "liberated" completely from all of man kind. 

As every pigeon fancier knows, pigeons can and will "get lost" right off the landing board, and presumably become part of the feral population. If we follow PETA logic, then no fancier should allow the birds out of the loft because they can and will get lost, hit wires, and become eaten. So if we were to attempt to comply with the wishes of PETA members, we would have to lock them up in the loft right ? No, because by restraining them inside lofts, the pigeons would "suffer" as they are not free. Perhaps in the Brave New World envisioned by PETA, even good well meaning folks who only rescue/rehab birds would have to go as well, since they are interfering with nature, and as anyone knows, a pigeon in need of rehab is suffering. And of course, we know the PETA solution to animal suffering by their "kill rates" at the animal rescue shelters they run. 

My solution is for those people who are truly interested in pigeon advocacy, to figure out what side they are going to be on in this war, as PETA has declared war on the racing pigeon fancy. And if you don't support the racing pigeon fanciers who are currently in the cross hairs, then we won't be there for you when they finally get to your pigeons or pets. Points or no points, you will then be on your own, since racing pigeon fanciers will no longer exist.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> We show both sides here, we are providing the pigeon fancier's side of the story, because we are pigeon lovers who are also pigeon fanciers, and then there are members of Pigeon Talk like you, who provide the PETA perspective. That is what makes us different from the PETA site, as we are fair and balanced. If we conducted our affairs as PETA does, then all of your comments would have been deleted, and you would have been banned.
> 
> Those are the facts, which demonstrates in my view that we are fair and balanced, and not hypocritical.


Valid points - I had not heard it in that way and remember I am in NZ so do not really have the exposure to PETA you guys do, I am just trying to remind everyone that although you may not agree with PETA's ways some of what they say is true and needs to be improved.

I agree PETA are the bad guys but there are some bad guys in racing too.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> This is a very damaging video for pigeon racing. Sadly, I KNOW a lot of the bad stuff is true. You guys and gals that race pigeons and show pigeons are the only ones who can change your image. I personally have friends who race and show pigeons, and they would NOT be my friends if they were not caring and responsible towards their birds. I know from experience that not all pigeon owners are like my friends .. thus pigeon fanciers have gotten a very bad reputation in the minds of many, and this PETA thing could and probably will be very, very bad for your sport and fancy. Sad to say that way too much bad stuff is true.
> 
> Terry


I think Terry really summed it up with the above statement.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Charis said:


> I think Terry really summed it up with the above statement.


Yeah I agree actually, Its almost all that needs to be said, I think with that in mind....... I will be done here, I have to say I have a greater understanding of PETA's tactics from this which is good, I've learnt something.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Some people may find it unbelievable that someone that professes to love and care for their animals would willingly box them up, send them hundreds of miles ( unnatural distances for a pigeon to fly ) and expect them to make it back in all sorts of wheather purely for their own enjoyment.
> 
> They know the dimise some of those birds face if they do not make it home - yet for their own benefit they carry on.
> 
> ...


 no I was just talking about what you said about how putting animals to sleep was an ok thing as it was better then living in a shelter. I myself can say otherwise as I dont race birds and dont take them on training tosses to let things happen beyond letting them out of the loft , from the sound of the things you have said you are pretty much one sided until you try to change what you originally said .


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

PigeonVilla said:


> no I was just talking about what you said about how putting animals to sleep was an ok thing as it was better then living in a shelter. I myself can say otherwise as I dont race birds and dont take them on training tosses to let things happen beyond letting them out of the loft , from the sound of the things you have said you are pretty much one sided until you try to change what you originally said .


 I stand by everything said, I took part in the debate with my initial opinion, After hearing some of the rebuttals I now think that PETA are going about things the wrong way, But I will not withdraw from the fact that some racing pigeons do suffer period.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I stand by everything said, I took part in the debate with my initial opinion, After hearing some of the rebuttals I now think that PETA are going about things the wrong way, But I will not withdraw from the fact that some racing pigeons do suffer period.


 They may suffer but peta should have no say in any of it as they are more a cause of the suffering of all animals then a haven from it ,so be careful on which side you chose to stand .


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My solution is for those people who are truly interested in pigeon advocacy, to figure out what side they are going to be on in this war, as PETA has declared war on the racing pigeon fancy. And if you don't support the racing pigeon fanciers who are currently in the cross hairs, then we won't be there for you when they finally get to your pigeons or pets. Points or no points, you will then be on your own, since racing pigeon fanciers will no longer exist.


I understand there is some bad in everything. But as a whole, I think the majority of racers, fanciers and rescuers love their birds and take very good care of them. All anyone has to do is take a look at some of these lofts that the birds are housed in.
I would never side with PETA  I'll probably get blasted by some people for this, but I love everything about animals......I eat meat, I wear leather (and fur), and I love my pets and birds. If it were up to peta, we'd all be vegans wearing potato sacs


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> I understand there is some bad in everything. But as a whole, I think the majority of racers, fanciers and rescuers love their birds and take very good care of them. All anyone has to do is take a look at some of these lofts that the birds are housed in.
> *I would never side with PETA * I'll probably get blasted by some people for this, but I love everything about animals......I eat meat, I wear leather (and fur), and I love my pets and birds. If it were up to peta, we'd all be vegans wearing potato sacs



Siding with PETA or siding against PETA are not the only choices.

By the way...I've seen some very interesting fashions made out of duct tape.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> I understand there is some bad in everything. But as a whole, I think the majority of racers, fanciers and rescuers love their birds and take very good care of them. All anyone has to do is take a look at some of these lofts that the birds are housed in.
> I would never side with PETA  I'll probably get blasted by some people for this, but I love everything about animals......I eat meat, I wear leather (and fur), and I love my pets and birds. If it were up to peta, we'd all be vegans wearing potato sacs


If you have ever seen their ads, we'd be nude

Line from PETA's ad - "I'd rather be nude, than wear fur!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I stand by everything said, I took part in the debate with my initial opinion, After hearing some of the rebuttals I now think that PETA are going about things the wrong way, But I will not withdraw from the fact that some racing pigeons do suffer period.


 I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts. It is not necessary to agree on everything. I am at least relived to hear that you are taking a second look at their methods to gain people's attention and are indeed going about things the wrong way. As an example, I think some of their bill board's are rude and offensive. And I am opposed to any group which uses violence and intimidation in order to have their way. It goes counter to rules of law, established by all free nations of this world we all live in. 

Here are some examples of the rude and crude way that PETA attacks religion and women who are overweight. Who in their sane mind's could support people or their ideas who are so mean spirited and cruel ?

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/downloads/PetaReligion.pdf


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

PigeonVilla said:


> They may suffer but peta should have no say in any of it as they are more a cause of the suffering of all animals then a haven from it ,so be careful on which side you chose to stand .


Be careful....?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts. It is not necessary to agree on everything. I am at least relived to hear that you are taking a second look at their methods to gain people's attention and are indeed going about things the wrong way. As an example, I think some of their bill board's are rude and offensive. And I am opposed to any group which uses violence and intimidation in order to have their way. It goes counter to rules of law, established by all free nations of this world we all live in.
> 
> Here are some examples of the rude and crude way that PETA attacks religion and women who are overweight. Who in their sane mind's could support people or their ideas who are so mean spirited and cruel ?
> 
> http://www.petakillsanimals.com/downloads/PetaReligion.pdf


I admit I was misinformed, I guess I do not see what you guys do but am building up my own opinion based on some info provided. They are extreme in their ways and a bit deluded as to what the world should be.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Be careful....?


 He may have forgotten that you are from NZ, and you folks there, may not have suffered from the arson and other crimes of violence, like we here in the USA have experienced at the hands of PETA or their affiliate organizations. It is a very dangerous world we live in. In our local area, some racing pigeon fanciers have had to resort to armed guards. 

http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/university_of_california_animal_rights_extremism.htm

Updated: May 12, 2011

A widespread campaign of intimidation and violence by animal rights extremists against University of California (UC) scientists and researchers has been marked by numerous acts of harassment, vandalism and a series of firebombings and attempted firebombings deliberately targeting individuals.........

....Radical animal rights and environmental groups have claimed responsibility for hundreds of crimes and acts of terrorism, including arson, bombings, vandalism and harassment during the past two decades, causing more than $175 million in damage.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Be careful....?


 I just ment be careful in whom you trust and support as they may turn against you someday .They are very good at using people for their own benifits and then leave them hanging out to dry . They as Msfreebird said want us to have nothing to do with animals in any way.


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