# Soar No More -Pigeon Decoys - No Season! No Limit! No Rules! Banded Birds!



## SmithFamilyLoft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph5uzoZVOu8


*CAUTION:*

The video starts with a "sportsmen" getting splattered by pigeon blood after blasting a pigeon away at close range, and an off camera voice laughs and says..."Nothing like the taste of fresh pigeon blood in the morning"......

This video is very disturbing. I did not start this thread in order to start debates on various things such as "hunting", etc. The purpose was to share the horror of what is happening to our poor banded and non banded pigeon friends. Every other species it seems has come under some form of goverment protection at times. Maybe it is time, we pass some laws to protect our oldest feathered friends ? 

I confess, I could not stomach the entire video, it makes me want to take up the hunting of pigeon "hunters". But, maybe a more productive course of action would be to share this with people on places like Face Book, and then ask them to share it with State Representatives and the like and see if we can get some States to start talking about passing such laws to protect our pigeon friends.

Following photo's taken from their site : 

http://www.soarnomore.com/photo_gallery


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## Rafael/PR

that is f23king sad, no, killing them is too good for them cut there trigger fingers off , what state is this anyway? what brother me ok go ahead and hunt some pigeon , but killing over 200 pigeons in a couple of hours burns me up. in ny, many places if you go fishing these days there is a limit you can catch and take home ,trout for instant only 3 you could take home and eat. this world is so f$$king funny. here a animal that save so many human life , and we doing this to there kind.


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## horseart4u

that is so sick and them being banded too, i wonder how they get the birds, like in that picture for all them birds to be laying so close together i think they released the birds them selves and then went trigger happy...it's a shame i am not even gonna look at the video the pic's say it all..


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## MaryOfExeter

Is that a pink countermark I see on the bird's leg? The one above the pink snap-on. They probably have a lot of racers coming over them during race season and just blast them all when the flocks come over.


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## NayNay

Yeah, I checked them out when this came up recently in the forum. They seem to be a bunch of young, trigger happy killers with a serious blood lust. It is disturbing that they have such a need to kill that they glorify the fact that they can legally shoot as many as they want whenever they want. 

I have no problem with hunters who hunt for meat- to me there is honor in that. But these boys have no honor, just bloodlust. It's disgusting. 

So, I guess the problem on our end is that pigeons are viewed by many as vermin. I know public outrage is a good way to go- and state reps don't want to be associated with supporting cruelty to animals, so that is probably the best course of action- public awareness, with a legislative shove would probably stop it pretty quick- esp since the perpetrators are so good at documenting their actions. 

Hmmmm, I wonder where the ASPCA would weigh in on this? Or even the fish and wildlife department. The Game Wardens I have known have all been very kind hearted and serious about their duties to protect wildlife. But we must get past the whole "Vermin" issue- perhaps by highlighting the contributions made by pigeons for the war effort. But clearly, the real Vermin here stand on 2 legs. Plus- the actions portrayed are so unsportsmanlike that even folks like the NRA would probably disapprove, as it gives all hunters a bad name when some "hunters" glorify killing like this. 

Anyway, I agree- a net based blitz could be the answer. Perhaps we need a Facebook Page Called "Stop the bloodthirsty killers of Soar no More"- sigh, even their name disgusts me.


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## spirit wings

I have seen these guys before and even called the game warden and regular police in their state to see if shooting a banded pigeon would be an offense.. they said the person who owned the banded pigeon would have to report it.. not sure if that ever happens.


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## NayNay

They are in Idaho.


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## horseart4u

omg like who would know that their bird is in that pile unless your there to see him/her? if a bird doesn't come home in a race or training flight we usually think "HAWK" not "HUNTER" oh sorry "MURDERER". i agree we should start up a page on facebook post this nasty video & pic's and start a petition to protect out banded babies. they are our livelyhood for some making money as well as ribbons & diploma's, we put alot of work, attention & love in our kids. it's not right....how do we get a petition started anyone have a clue?


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## kbraden

Sign into You Tube, click on the FLAG icon under the video(may have to click it a few times). Drop down menu appears, click Violent & Repulsive, it will pop up a side menu, click on Animal Abuse. Then finalize by clicking Flag. 
If enough people start flagging his videos he will be removed. It is a start at least.


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## horseart4u

kbraden said:


> Sign into You Tube, click on the FLAG icon under the video(may have to click it a few times). Drop down menu appears, click Violent & Repulsive, it will pop up a side menu, click on Animal Abuse. Then finalize by clicking Flag.
> If enough people start flagging his videos he will be removed. It is a start at least.


doing it now


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## horseart4u

i did it..who's with me?


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## horseart4u

this is the comment i left "you people are sick, first of all those aren't wild fearl pigeons, they have bands on their legs which mean they are somebodies birds. you are killing someones pets, or better yet liveliyhood, those birds are expencive and are racing. they make money. how would you like it if some shot your dog for sport.." hey it had a collar on i got extra points for that dog."


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## g-pigeon

that's just sad. these guys need to do something a bit more productive with themselves.
to kill animals for no reason at all just boggles the mind.


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## g-pigeon

Created A Youtube Account Just To Flag It


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## horseart4u

g-pigeon said:


> Created A Youtube Account Just To Flag It


good for you


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## NayNay

I am all for flagging their vids, but somebody needs to save copies, or we have no evidence of how sick they are. 

I just wrote an email to a "protect our heritage of hunting in Idaho" website, and let them know that these guys were giving all Idaho hunters a bad name- and I gave them that link. So, if their videos stop, we lose the ability to turn public opinion against them. Plus, stopping the videos will not stop them from doing what they are doing. 

My suggestion in my email was that perhaps Idaho needs to make it only legal to shoot birds that are actively menacing a farm or dairy- and then only to be killed by the farmer, or a licensed exterminator. I dunno- seemed like a good compromise.


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## John_D

Flagged.

Don't matter whether they're owned pigeons or not, they're sickos ... and what or who will it be when they get tired of pigeons


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## Charis

I pretty much hate people anymore.


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## FrillbackLover

This is horrible, we need to do more then just flag a vid


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## Flying_Pidgy

I flagged it. How unfortunate.


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## Msfreebird

Sorry.....I'm not one that can watch the video  AND, I'm not real computer literate! 
What if someone was to send the video to a TV station.....(link)
http://www.ktvb.com/on-tv/contact/65263612.html
Has to be someone very 'tactful' with 'finesse' to get them to take us seriously. 
I'm also from a family of 'hunters'......BUT, this is NOT hunting. These guys (loosers) are not hunters, they are sick in the head with warped minds.
Not to mention, they are killing people's pets.......'personal property'


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## Msfreebird

Charis said:


> I pretty much hate people anymore.


I gave up on 'humans' a LONG time ago (how sad), hence....my signature (in solitude-there is strength) 
Animals don't kill for sport.


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## newtopidgeons

Atleast they had to remove the link to the AU site.
They had it linked so you see were "your pigeon was banded"
Not only do they kill OUR pigeons they call them thiers afterwards.
There sponsors dont seem to mind, I have contacted them.
But i have some other big time hunting retailers possibly trying to get them to atleast get them to remove the incintive for the bands. As they say "ferals" are free game but pets should not be. And they agree it gives all hunters a bad image.
I think the best thing we can do is try to atleast get people that may care to realize, banded birds belong to somebody some where and they may even be looking for the bird or expecting it home and it should not be shot.
All this is just my opinion.


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## ERIC K

I agree with you Smith Family Loft we as pigeon people need to get more involved and contact our State and Federal elected officials. Anyone have an E-Mail address for the White House? Might as well start at the Top. 

I had 2 pigeons home from a long race two weeks ago , they were a few days in returning with muddy feet . When I looked close you could smell the cow **** on their feet, so my guess is that our racing birds when needed will get feed where ever they can find it so that is why those guys get banded birds. Its not that our birds GO feral they just need a meal to get home. Years ago it was against the law to shoot pigeons when they were still used as messenger pigeon, they had federal protection. I think its time to bring back this law.


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## newtopidgeons

I watched the video its worse then I imagined. I have to admit it seemed as if most of the birds lived on the farms they were killing them at, but if a flock were to fly over they would have no mercy on them either. And the real smart owner guy even explains if you see a perfect blue bar or a bird with white in it, (KILL IT) its more than likely banded.
Wow i hope I never meet him face to face, and Im glad i didnt finish misleading him into telling me if there were any "hunts" available in my area.
I wonder if the military would mind, theyre supposed to still have pigeons right?
Ive emailed everybody I know that may or may not even care, but I think every one else should do the same. The crap seems to have just came out, and we need to prvent it from growing.


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## Alamo

I think a law has to be made that just like deer season,or duck season etc,their should be months that corelate with the "pigeon racing season",that you are not allowed to hunt doves/pigeons....At least that way,our birds homing from a race are safe from these A/holes....Alamo


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## rpalmer

Alamo said:


> I think a law has to be made that just like deer season,or duck season etc,their should be months that corelate with the "pigeon racing season",that you are not allowed to hunt doves/pigeons....At least that way,our birds homing from a race are safe from these A/holes....Alamo


That makes too much sense so it won't happen.


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## newtopidgeons

Yes since our first young bird race is the weekend of or the following week after dove season starts here. Theres no way the hunters are gonna change thier season for ours and we cant race all year long. They need to mainly get then to quit targeting banded pigeons period.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Flying_Pidgy said:


> I flagged it. How unfortunate.


 Actually, I wish there was some way to secure this footage for future use. At some point they may just take it down, and then the average person will not be able to see the cruel treatment these birds have recieved. Those horrible pictures on their web site should be preserved. People should remeber back to those pictures that people took when killing off the passenger pigeon. I am thinking we should share this sick twisted "Sport" with as many normal people as possible, so they can see for their own eyes, what some people view as "fun". 

This has nothing to do with hunting, it is blood lust, pure and simple. The following paragraph was taken directly off their web site at : 
http://www.soarnomore.com/Homepage.html

"....Hunting pigeons here in the US has been kept under a tight lip for way too long. Don't get me wrong, *there are a lot of guys who know the thrill of killing a hundred or two hundred pigeons in an afternoon.* The only reason hunting pigeons hasn't caught on like in Europe and South America , is because *these guys who are doing it, just aren't saying a word about it*. I'm not talking about shooting pigeons out of your neighbor's barn; I'm talking about setting decoys and having them lite in groups of fifty or more. Pigeons decoy better than ducks, actually when you consistently kill pigeons, you will find that ducks are just plain slow. Here at Soar No More, we have taken pigeon shooting, and pigeon hunting to a new level. Producing the most cutting edge pigeon decoys, and now offering European Wood Pigeon decoys, we have the tools for your next addiction....."

No, rather then chasing it back underground, like the cock fights, dog fighting, and organized pigeon shoots, this pigeon shooting should be given the full light of day. Let them later explain their "rights" to kill a couple of hundred birds in an afternoon, just for the pure fun of blasting away at live bird target's !! I have sent the You Tube to all members of my Combine, and I have shared it on Face Book as well.


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## West

newtopidgeons said:


> I watched the video its worse then I imagined. I have to admit it seemed as if most of the birds lived on the farms they were killing them at, but if a flock were to fly over they would have no mercy on them either. And the real smart owner guy even explains if you see a perfect blue bar or a bird with white in it, (KILL IT) its more than likely banded.
> Wow i hope I never meet him face to face, and Im glad i didnt finish misleading him into telling me if there were any "hunts" available in my area.
> *I wonder if the military would mind, theyre supposed to still have pigeons right?*
> Ive emailed everybody I know that may or may not even care, but I think every one else should do the same. The crap seems to have just came out, and we need to prvent it from growing.


No, I'm almost positive we no longer have pigeons.

Anyways I do have a problem with these guys shooting racers and considering them trophy kills. Although I do think if a farmer has a pigeon problem this is much more humane than poisoning the birds. I can't blame a guy for letting people hunt these birds for free on his property rather than pay a "licensed exterminator" to do the same job. If you have a problem with it I suggest you protest by not drinking milk as I'm sure this is more common than you think. Some kind of law with the responsibility to contact the owner of the deceased banded pigeon might discourage those tempted to shoot at passing flocks of racers.


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## Charis

This is no different than the Pennsylvania pigeon shoots. Just as sick...just as cruel. I know you didn't want anyone to go there Warren but how can we be appalled by one and not the other? ( Rhetorical question...no need for anyone to answer.]


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## rpalmer

When pigeons are in a race how many times have you seen them flying low enough for wing shooting?


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## JaxRacingLofts

These guys are just killing birds at close range to watch them quiver and die. How anyone could call this sportsmanship is beyond me.

Unfortunately pigeons are not native to North America and as such they are not afforded the same animal rights and protection as say a Crow or a Blue Jay. 
Also pigeons are highly adaptable so they can be found in cities or in the fields from north to south all across the country. Because they are considered "common" the public will not want to be bothered by pigeons dying by hunters when KFC and Tyson kill millions of chickens a year. 

This misconception is the problem because these so called sportsman are not really hunting to eat but to get the coveted racing pigeons leg band trophy. If the world understood these people are gunning to destroy our pets and property so they can cut off our birds dead foot for his identification ring then possibly the representatives will realize how barbaric these practices really are and the outrage will get the laws changed. 

As the case maybe we as pigeon racers would have to ally ourselves with PETA for their lobbying power and maybe after years of legislating (ie court battles= lawyers) we might get their website taken down for promoting animal cruelty / slaughter and destruction of personal property. Also know that 10 more will pop up just like it so it will become a hunters protest fad and Pigeon Racers will be associated with Peta wackos.

For all the reasons we claim to have the right to freely own and fly our birds these inbred ******** will claim a reason to destroy them without limits. 

I don't like the way the cards are dealt here but if our goal is to stop the wholesale slaughter of pigeons then we will need a Federal law that you cannot kill more birds per day per licensed hunter then you can eat. 
Also even if we do get a law like that passed it does not mean these guys will stop they just won't brag as much online about it but it will continue regardless unless the fines and penalties outweigh their excitement of torturing little animals.


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## West

Half a mile out, but the point is that hopefully this would cover birds going down for food/water as well mid race. There is no perfect solution but you can't expect farmers to just let flocks of pigeons become a nuisance on their property.


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## Wingsonfire

West said:


> Half a mile out, but the point is that hopefully this would cover birds going down for food/water as well mid race. There is no perfect solution but you can't expect farmers to just let flocks of pigeons become a nuisance on their property.


I agree with you 100%, they can do a number on crops for sure. Feral hogs are a problem here and most land owners are only to happy to let you hunt their land to get rid of them, I am sure the same goes with pigeons in different parts. Like it or not farmers with crops that pigeons will eat welcome people to come hunt them.


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## Sunne

These guys are really sickk, flagged em'


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## Libis

JaxRacingLofts said:


> As the case maybe we as pigeon racers would have to ally ourselves with PETA for their lobbying power and maybe after years of legislating (ie court battles= lawyers) we might get their website taken down for promoting animal cruelty / slaughter and destruction of personal property. Also know that 10 more will pop up just like it so it will become a hunters protest fad and Pigeon Racers will be associated with Peta wackos.
> .


PETA will not be of help to you. They hate you as much as hunters, since you keep animals "locked up" in captivity and "abuse" them by racing them. 
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/09/peta-protests-mike-tysons-pigeon-racing-tv-show/


> As far as pigeon racing goes, PETA officials claim that racing pigeons are forced to fly hundreds of miles in all weather extremes as they attempt to get home, and are are vulnerable to both natural predators such as hawks and cruel humans who view them as "pests."


http://www.meetup.com/vegasveg/events/16772178/


> Birds who are forced to race often struggle to survive extreme heat, hail, and thunderstorms, dodging both predators and cruel humans through grueling races that can be as long as 500 miles. Those who somehow do not succumb to exhaustion or injury and make their way home may still have their necks wrung by unsatisfied trainers.


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## rpalmer

Peta is the wrong way to go. They had limited? success against the Tyson series and that was the end of them. This issue would only bring them into the world of pigeons. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the web site was actually a PETA "plant".


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## JaxRacingLofts

I know Pigeon fanciers and Peta have their differences of opinions on the raising and keeping of homing pigeons. That said I would like to believe for the most part the majority of people that actually contribute money to that organization will have to agree with us that this wrong. 
These hillbillies are bragging that they have no restrictions, no time limits, no season, and any pigeon they see is free game regardless if its someones pet or not and of course they enjoy killing the pretty banded once best. 

This situation is out of control. I think more of the money that our racing pigeon clubs are always hitting us up for should be used to get laws on the books that will actually be enforced. I would be in favor of a law like a $500 fine for willfully shooting a banded racing pigeon. Those "Sportsman in Camouflage" pretend that they can't see the birds legs but I have watched their videos and they place feed and decoys on the ground and then ambush the birds with shotguns from only 20'-30' away. Then they take the dead bodies and throw them in the trash. 

I know some of you folks have paid big money for your imported birds and CBS sells directs from imports starting at $500 ea..so all that time and investment can be blown away for some "sportsman's" afternoon fun.

With this sport on the decline and basic apathy from the general public somehow the AU and the IF should be trying to outreach and educate as many people as possible on what the states are allowing to happen. I still believe though that the majority of PETA supporters want to do the right thing its the upper management thats twisted and misguided.


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## SouthTown Racers

JaxRacingLofts said:


> I know Pigeon fanciers and Peta have their differences of opinions on the raising and keeping of homing pigeons. That said I would like to believe for the most part the majority of people that actually contribute money to that organization will have to agree with us that this wrong.
> These hillbillies are bragging that they have no restrictions, no time limits, no season, and any pigeon they see is free game regardless if its someones pet or not and of course they enjoy killing the pretty banded once best.
> 
> This situation is out of control. I think more of the money that our racing pigeon clubs are always hitting us up for should be used to get laws on the books that will actually be enforced. I would be in favor of a law like a $500 fine for willfully shooting a banded racing pigeon. Those "Sportsman in Camouflage" pretend that they can't see the birds legs but I have watched their videos and they place feed and decoys on the ground and then ambush the birds with shotguns from only 20'-30' away. Then they take the dead bodies and throw them in the trash.
> 
> I know some of you folks have paid big money for your imported birds and CBS sells directs from imports starting at $500 ea..so all that time and investment can be blown away for some "sportsman's" afternoon fun.
> 
> With this sport on the decline and basic apathy from the general public somehow the AU and the IF should be trying to outreach and educate as many people as possible on what the states are allowing to happen. I still believe though that the majority of PETA supporters want to do the right thing its the upper management thats twisted and misguided.


The biggest problem with all of this is that 95% takes place on private property (Im guessing) so it would be hard to regulate especially if the birds are just thrown in the trash on site.


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## newtopidgeons

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Actually, I wish there was some way to secure this footage for future use. At some point they may just take it down, and then the average person will not be able to see the cruel treatment these birds have recieved. Those horrible pictures on their web site should be preserved. People should remeber back to those pictures that people took when killing off the passenger pigeon. I am thinking we should share this sick twisted "Sport" with as many normal people as possible, so they can see for their own eyes, what some people view as "fun".
> 
> This has nothing to do with hunting, it is blood lust, pure and simple. The following paragraph was taken directly off their web site at :
> http://www.soarnomore.com/Homepage.html
> 
> "....Hunting pigeons here in the US has been kept under a tight lip for way too long. Don't get me wrong, *there are a lot of guys who know the thrill of killing a hundred or two hundred pigeons in an afternoon.* The only reason hunting pigeons hasn't caught on like in Europe and South America , is because *these guys who are doing it, just aren't saying a word about it*. I'm not talking about shooting pigeons out of your neighbor's barn; I'm talking about setting decoys and having them lite in groups of fifty or more. Pigeons decoy better than ducks, actually when you consistently kill pigeons, you will find that ducks are just plain slow. Here at Soar No More, we have taken pigeon shooting, and pigeon hunting to a new level. Producing the most cutting edge pigeon decoys, and now offering European Wood Pigeon decoys, we have the tools for your next addiction....."
> 
> No, rather then chasing it back underground, like the cock fights, dog fighting, and organized pigeon shoots, this pigeon shooting should be given the full light of day. Let them later explain their "rights" to kill a couple of hundred birds in an afternoon, just for the pure fun of blasting away at live bird target's !! I have sent the You Tube to all members of my Combine, and I have shared it on Face Book as well.


YouTube downloader. I'll get the video.


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## Skyeking

horseart4u said:


> this is the comment i left "you people are sick, first of all those aren't wild fearl pigeons, they have bands on their legs which mean they are somebodies birds.* * you are killing someones pets*, or better yet liveliyhood, those birds are expencive and are racing. they make money. how would you like it if some shot your dog for sport.." hey it had a collar on i got extra points for that dog."


These people have no conscience. It is disgusting and revolting.

* However, IF they are your pets, you shouldn't let them fly at all, because there are all kinds of dangers out there, besides these criminals. I would have them around me at all times, like my dog, he is not allowed to run around loose, either.


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## West

Wingsonfire said:


> I agree with you 100%, they can do a number on crops for sure. Feral hogs are a problem here and most land owners are only to happy to let you hunt their land to get rid of them, I am sure the same goes with pigeons in different parts. Like it or not farmers with crops that pigeons will eat welcome people to come hunt them.


Yup, same with coyotes that kill the calves. My buddies and I have been given permission by multiple farmers to hunt them at will.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Understand we simply love our pigeons*

I don't know what I was thinking. 

Starting a thread with this as a subject matter, you know is going to cause some emotional response from various directions. I guess after being on this site since 2004 I didn't think anything would disturb me so much. I guess I just didn't think that such things happened. I guess I was a little naive when I only found out in recent years that live organized pigeon shoots were still taking place in the Commonwealth of Pa. 

Now it appears that this "sport" of luring pigeons to decoys and then shooting them may be gaining a following. I guess my best hope is that those folks out there that do enjoy the outdoors, and do enjoy traditional Pa. activities such as "Dove" hunting, or "Duck" hunting etc., will at least realize that "Pigeon Hunting" as described and carried out by these commercial outfits which are selling the decoys, is very controversial in nature. 

Perhaps there was a very good reason why most people who went out and killed a few hundred pigeons in an afternoon, didn't tell anyone...and why Soar No More reports...*..."....Hunting pigeons here in the US has been kept under a tight lip for way too long..."* 

So while many of us might want to vent about sticking a stick in the eye or something to people shown in the video, the truth of the matter is, people who do enjoy this kind of killing, and who show no repect for the animals or birds they kill, do not have the support of the majority of the hunters and sportsmen that I have spoken to so far. 

Let us be aware of these people, and look for them in our travels. I know there are many miles of back roads in Pa., but there are more of us out there road training every day. Let's bring their activities to the attention of their neighbors, co-workers, gun clubs, etc. and the press. 

Sometimes exposing deeds to the light of day, even though it may be uncomfortable to look at, can allow people to see the inhumanity, and bring about positive change. My hope is that someone who may have participated in such activity, or is contemplating doing so, and has somehow stumbled across these pages, will instead purchase a box of those "Clay Pigeons" and shoot them instead. 

Some of those pigeons out there belong to someone, perhaps one of our Jr. members, and many of our families are actively involved in our pigeon keeping. Please allow them the opportunity to return home where they are enjoyed, appreciated, and very much loved.


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## rpalmer

I had an email that I agree with. It went something like this. "If my birds are in a race and come down to decoys they deserve to be shot".

Secondly, Birds in a race are are out of range to be shot.

And lastly. This is exactly like so many westerns. A problem arises. The town folk decide to hire a gunfighter because they don't have the brass to take care of the problem their selves.

Now the town is at the mercy of the hired gunfighter. 

It is the same thing here. So don't go looking for someone else to do your work or you will be at their mercy. And since you are not an animal PETA will have no mercy for you. You have been properly warned.


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## John_D

rpalmer said:


> I had an email that I agree with. It went something like this. "If my birds are in a race and come down to decoys they deserve to be shot".


I saw an email with the same sentiments. My reaction was, that attitude just helps to tarnish the image of pigeon fanciers, and negates the efforts of fanciers who care about their birds to present the fancy in a positive light. It also provides the kind of ammunition organizations such as PETA relish.

I would agree that if fanciers try to enlist PETA's aid, then PETA would probably have a field day, with their view of what they consider exploitation. Other pigeon people, however, might get a more positive reception. Not, frankly, that I have much time for AR groups and their agendas.


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## newtopidgeons

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know what I was thinking.
> 
> Starting a thread with this as a subject matter, you know is going to cause some emotional response from various directions. I guess after being on this site since 2004 I didn't think anything would disturb me so much. I guess I just didn't think that such things happened. I guess I was a little naive when I only found out in recent years that live organized pigeon shoots were still taking place in the Commonwealth of Pa.
> 
> Now it appears that this "sport" of luring pigeons to decoys and then shooting them may be gaining a following. I guess my best hope is that those folks out there that do enjoy the outdoors, and do enjoy traditional Pa. activities such as "Dove" hunting, or "Duck" hunting etc., will at least realize that "Pigeon Hunting" as described and carried out by these commercial outfits which are selling the decoys, is very controversial in nature.
> 
> Perhaps there was a very good reason why most people who went out and killed a few hundred pigeons in an afternoon, didn't tell anyone...and why Soar No More reports...*..."....Hunting pigeons here in the US has been kept under a tight lip for way too long..."*
> 
> So while many of us might want to vent about sticking a stick in the eye or something to people shown in the video, the truth of the matter is, people who do enjoy this kind of killing, and who show no repect for the animals or birds they kill, do not have the support of the majority of the hunters and sportsmen that I have spoken to so far.
> 
> Let us be aware of these people, and look for them in our travels. I know there are many miles of back roads in Pa., but there are more of us out there road training every day. Let's bring their activities to the attention of their neighbors, co-workers, gun clubs, etc. and the press.
> 
> Sometimes exposing deeds to the light of day, even though it may be uncomfortable to look at, can allow people to see the inhumanity, and bring about positive change. My hope is that someone who may have participated in such activity, or is contemplating doing so, and has somehow stumbled across these pages, will instead purchase a box of those "Clay Pigeons" and shoot them instead.
> 
> Some of those pigeons out there belong to someone, perhaps one of our Jr. members, and many of our families are actively involved in our pigeon keeping. Please allow them the opportunity to return home where they are enjoyed, appreciated, and very much loved.


Will you help us make a proper email that we can send to everyone that may not realize the wrong being done?


----------



## newtopidgeons

They are slowly removeing the banded bird incintives and pictures. Except they sale a band for $125 of thier own which includes an invitation to hunt with them.
They have numerous videos on youtube some of wounded birds they leave walking in the fields to lure more pigeons in for the kill.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

rpalmer said:


> I had an email that *I agree with*. It went something like this. "If my birds are in a race and come down to decoys *they deserve to be shot"....*



I am so sorry you feel that way. Sort of reminds me of a mean ole uncle in our family that is now long since passed, who wanted to shoot a pair of hunting dogs because he didn't like their preformance while hunting one day. Maybe he knew his hunting dogs, but his thought process did not endear us kids who were horrfied at the prospect, being that we liked dogs.

So being that this site is a pigeon advocacy group, I just wonder if you have given any thought as to how such a comment sounds to people who really do like pigeons ? Are you intentionally trying to cause distress ? 

We as pigeon lovers have our work cut out for us when pigeon fanciers make statements, that their own pigeons "deserve to be shot" if they are attracted to a decoy. I feel sorry for the pigeons owned by such a fancier of course, but I also feel sorry for their owners. They have never really bonded with this bird, and perhaps they are in need of a good hug themselves.


----------



## newtopidgeons

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I am so sorry you feel that way. Sort of reminds me of a mean ole uncle in our family that is now long since passed, who wanted to shoot a pair of hunting dogs because he didn't like their preformance while hunting one day. Maybe he knew his hunting dogs, but his thought process did not endear us kids who were horrfied at the prospect, being that we liked dogs.
> 
> So being that this site is a pigeon advocacy group, I just wonder if you have given any thought as to how such a comment sounds to people who really do like pigeons ? Are you intentionally trying to cause distress ?
> 
> We as pigeon lovers have our work cut out for us when pigeon fanciers make statements, that their own pigeons "deserve to be shot" if they are attracted to a decoy. I feel sorry for the pigeons owned by such a fancier of course, but I also feel sorry for their owners. They have never really bonded with this bird, and perhaps they are in need of a good hug themselves.


Mr Warren may have me on "ignore list" due to my posting on another thread a while back, could someone please let him know Im interested in trying to atleast enlighten the people that may care and are unaware that some of us are expecting, hoping, and looking for some of the banded birds, that theese guys are killing.


----------



## JaxRacingLofts

rpalmer said:


> And lastly. This is exactly like so many westerns. A problem arises. The town folk decide to hire a gunfighter because they don't have the brass to take care of the problem their selves.
> 
> Now the town is at the mercy of the hired gunfighter.
> 
> It is the same thing here. So don't go looking for someone else to do your work or you will be at their mercy. And since you are not an animal PETA will have no mercy for you. You have been properly warned.


I will assume this is a response to my suggestion to get PETA on the war path and do our bidding. My thinking for suggesting a radical group such as PETA to advocate the banning of these free for all pigeon shoots is because its is all they do. They have a well oiled political machine with the media in their back pockets to carry forth their messages. 

After all "Who agrees with the torturing of small animals for the enjoyment of watching them struggle and die is a good thing?" They have spin doctors that can get the message out and the politicians will want to be seen as putting a stop to it..and next year is another election season so it would not be hard for them to get a group of politician that wants to be seen as promoting the ethical treatment of animals. 

I would say never mind the PETA group all together if pigeon racers where actually a united group but where we have maybe a guesstimate of 50k in the AU and IF combined the PETA group has MILLIONS a of members. 

So it boils down to whats more important? Get some laws on the books that can and will be enforced or hold grudges and then keep sitting at home waiting for your prized bird that will never return because some "sportsman" wanted to kill it for their enjoyment of watching it struggle and die.


----------



## West

Sorry but joining up with PETA is one of the worst ideas I've ever read. If they had it their way they would have pigeon racing shut down. In fact if they had it their way animals would be better off dead than domesticated. Oh and millions of PETA members is not due to anything but extreme ignorance.


----------



## PigeonVilla

rpalmer said:


> I had an email that I agree with. It went something like this. "If my birds are in a race and come down to decoys they deserve to be shot".
> 
> Secondly, Birds in a race are are out of range to be shot.
> 
> And lastly. This is exactly like so many westerns. A problem arises. The town folk decide to hire a gunfighter because they don't have the brass to take care of the problem their selves.
> 
> Now the town is at the mercy of the hired gunfighter.
> 
> It is the same thing here. So don't go looking for someone else to do your work or you will be at their mercy. And since you are not an animal PETA will have no mercy for you. You have been properly warned.


 I personally think you are on the wrong site ,first of all racing birds can easily get thrown off course by just about anything out there in the world that nature has to throw at them and would need something to eat or drink to get them back in the air without falling over dead on their way home. Secondly if you have actually seen birds that are racing they dont all fly 100 miles in the air, lots of times they travel right over the tree line and are easily in range of someone with a gun .That goes for just training tosses too,a bird doesnt have to stop to be gunned down and people could easily shoot them with a bow and arrow most time just as easily .


----------



## John_D

I would be quite surprised if PETA and other such organizations are, as yet, unaware of this horrific slaughter. 

But, no harm in contacting them without mentioning one is a fancier.


----------



## JaxRacingLofts

West said:


> Sorry but joining up with PETA is one of the worst ideas I've ever read. If they had it their way they would have pigeon racing shut down. In fact if they had it their way animals would be better off dead than domesticated. Oh and millions of PETA members is not due to anything but extreme ignorance.


I agree PETA as a group is out in left field and they have twisted ideas about taking care of pets but I think the majority of its members will be extremely offended to see the wholesale killing of pigeons and their corpses used to give the body count of the kill. 
You can call it the worst idea ever but this is a war against our feathered friends and sometimes to achieve our goals we will have to ally ourselves with our enemies. I say lets put them to work for a real good cause. All we have to do is link the images SoarNoMore has their websites and their Youtube videos onto their forums and lets see what they do with it.


----------



## PigeonVilla

JaxRacingLofts said:


> I agree PETA as a group is out in left field and they have twisted ideas about taking care of pets but I think the majority of its members will be extremely offended to see the wholesale killing of pigeons and their corpses used to give the body count of the kill.
> You can call it the worst idea ever but this is a war against our feathered friends and sometimes to achieve our goals we will have to ally ourselves with our enemies. I say lets put them to work for a real good cause. All we have to do is link the images SoarNoMore has their websites and their Youtube videos onto their forums and lets see what they do with it.


Peta doesnt want people to have pets period .


----------



## rpalmer

John_D said:


> I saw an email with the same sentiments. My reaction was, that attitude just helps to tarnish the image of pigeon fanciers, and negates the efforts of fanciers who care about their birds to present the fancy in a positive light. It also provides the kind of ammunition organizations such as PETA relish.
> 
> I would agree that if fanciers try to enlist PETA's aid, then PETA would probably have a field day, with their view of what they consider exploitation. Other pigeon people, however, might get a more positive reception. Not, frankly, that I have much time for AR groups and their agendas.


I dare say PETA will find ammunition anywhere and failing that they will manufacture it. I love my birds. They eat better than me. They have better health care and are better housed that I am. But PETA would have me not own an animal. And BTW do squat for me as a human.

As for racing ... from the best, better. If they are drawn to decoys what would stop them from just following the flock to some other loft? Nothing. 

My birds were bred and raised for racing. That is what they will do. 



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I am so sorry you feel that way. Sort of reminds me of a mean ole uncle in our family that is now long since passed, who wanted to shoot a pair of hunting dogs because he didn't like their preformance while hunting one day. Maybe he knew his hunting dogs, but his thought process did not endear us kids who were horrfied at the prospect, being that we liked dogs.
> 
> So being that this site is a pigeon advocacy group, I just wonder if you have given any thought as to how such a comment sounds to people who really do like pigeons ? Are you intentionally trying to cause distress ?
> 
> We as pigeon lovers have our work cut out for us when pigeon fanciers make statements, that their own pigeons "deserve to be shot" if they are attracted to a decoy. I feel sorry for the pigeons owned by such a fancier of course, but I also feel sorry for their owners. They have never really bonded with this bird, and perhaps they are in need of a good hug themselves.


Your mean old uncle was raised that way. Everyone back then was who did not have two pennies to rub together. But maybe he had two nickles and just did what he believed was right.

As for pigeon advocacy ... no I'm not stirring the pot. And to those who I may have offended, I apologize. As for bonding with my birds, I have a good rapport with my birds. They aren't taking seed from my lips like when I was a kid but still it's all good. Do not feel sorry for me or my birds. We are all doing great. They a bit better that I.


----------



## PigeonVilla

rpalmer said:


> I dare say PETA will find ammunition anywhere and failing that they will manufacture it. I love my birds. They eat better than me. They have better health care and are better housed that I am. But PETA would have me not own an animal. And BTW do squat for me as a human.
> 
> As for racing ... from the best, better. If they are drawn to decoys what would stop them from just following the flock to some other loft? Nothing.
> 
> My birds were bred and raised for racing. That is what they will do.
> 
> 
> 
> Your mean old uncle was raised that way. Everyone back then was who did not have two pennies to rub together. But maybe he had two nickles and just did what he believed was right.
> 
> As for pigeon advocacy ... no I'm not stirring the pot. And to those who I may have offended, I apologize. As for bonding with my birds, I have a good rapport with my birds. They aren't taking seed from my lips like when I was a kid but still it's all good. Do not feel sorry for me or my birds. We are all doing great. They a bit better that I.


 Well then I guess what you are saying is that you will only like them til they do you wrong, then they are on their own.


----------



## newtopidgeons

Peta and the HSUS are for the betterment and growth of Peta and hsus ONLY.
They prey on the people who know no different, and steal thier money, then use it to build false cases and make fake commercials to deprive United States citizens thier right to the pursuit of happiness.
Peta is no friend or ally to any animal owner.
Thier main goal is to have no one own an animal for sport, next for food, hunting is somewere in thier also, but first and foremost is animal events.


----------



## Libis

newtopidgeons said:


> Peta and the HSUS are for the betterment and growth of Peta and hsus ONLY.
> They prey on the people who know no different, and steal thier money, then use it to build false cases and make fake commercials to deprive United States citizens thier right to the pursuit of happiness.
> Peta is no friend or ally to any animal owner.
> Thier main goal is to have no one own an animal for sport, next for food, hunting is somewere in thier also, but first and foremost is animal events.


This. 

PETA is out for their own agenda and you cannot turn them to yours. Their agenda is to keep you from keeping animals "captive" or eating them.


----------



## newtopidgeons

Libis said:


> This.
> 
> PETA is out for their own agenda and you cannot turn them to yours. Their agenda is to keep you from keeping animals "captive" or eating them.


I think we agree


----------



## Libis

newtopidgeons said:


> I think we agree


Yeah. I said "this," meaning to be emphasizing my agreement to your comment and then added my comment in general.


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## newtopidgeons

Libis said:


> Yeah. I said "this," meaning to be emphasizing my agreement to your comment and then added my comment in general.


Thanks for clearing me up, i thought I had failed to explain my opinion


----------



## JaxRacingLofts

newtopidgeons said:


> Peta and the HSUS are for the betterment and growth of Peta and hsus ONLY.
> They prey on the people who know no different, and steal thier money, then use it to build false cases and make fake commercials to deprive United States citizens thier right to the pursuit of happiness.
> Peta is no friend or ally to any animal owner.
> Thier main goal is to have no one own an animal for sport, next for food, hunting is somewere in thier also, but first and foremost is animal events.


I understand what your saying and I feel the same way about them. If someone has a better plan to stop these so called sportsman from killing our birds for their leg bands I'm listening. 

Meanwhile I thought of a win-win we as a shared interest community could try. I had to drive to the store earlier and on my way home a train passed by. While I was watching the freight cars pass down the rails this strategy occurred to me. 

We (meaning more then myself) post pics of the soarnomore pigeon shoots on Peta websites and forums and brag how much fun it is to see little birds minding their own business and blow them away. Tell them our goal is top whoever's "high score" of 300+ birds in an afternoon. 
Basically pose as obnoxious pigeon hunters and invite the PETA members to check out the website and see how much fun this "sport" is. We help the soarnomore guys by sharing the links to the websites and Youtube videos and give PETA a reason to hate pigeon hunters. (Thus letting them do what they do best and that will be drive the hunters crazy) 

This should be easy to do as long as the their website stays up and running with sponsors advertising and they continue making videos it will be simple to stir the flames.

Thats my idea to deal with this situation..I don't really see the AU or the IF going after these "Trophy Hunters" that are shooting our birds...they will just chalk it up to the cost of racing. So if anyone has a better idea by all means enlighten us because to do nothing is to condone it.


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## Charis

Geeze...Instead of involving PETA...trying to get PETA to make a stand...why don't you all instead...you all make a stand and tell these *sportsmen *just what you think of their actions?!


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## newtopidgeons

The soar no more site has changed ALOT, in the last week. I have contacted the AU before the AU link came down, that afternoon the link was gone. The AU didnt really like my tone, when asking couldnt they do more, but I understand they dont condone it and made amends for my tone. If have also emailed thier video, with the tutorial of what birds are banded ie, perfect blue bars and any with white is what he explains.
Like i said the site is very different and they dont promote the bands as much thier anymore, so i didnt link it to my email. I paln to send it again to another list with legislators and lawmakers email adresses on it. 
Call me condoneing it if you want but i will not bother Peta or the hsus, and pray to god everynight they never bother me again. They will take your sport, and way of life away from you like snatching a rug from under your feet, after that you would have the taste in your mouth that i live with. If there were not youngins here i would explain what i would not do in thier ear, if thier brains were on fire literally in front of my face.


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## newtopidgeons

Charis said:


> Geeze...Instead of involving PETA...trying to get PETA to make a stand...why don't you all instead...you all make a stand and tell these *sportsmen *just what you think of their actions?!


Sporstmen Ive told care,
theese guys and thier sponsors did not care when I told them.
Will you stand with us and voice your opinion to them as well? Since this is your idea?
If enough people tell them how they feel more change may be soon to come.


----------



## Libis

newtopidgeons said:


> The soar no more site has changed ALOT, in the last week. I have contacted the AU before the AU link came down, that afternoon the link was gone. The AU didnt really like my tone, when asking couldnt they do more, but I understand they dont condone it and made amends for my tone. If have also emailed thier video, with the tutorial of what birds are banded ie, perfect blue bars and any with white is what he explains.
> Like i said the site is very different and they dont promote the bands as much thier anymore, so i didnt link it to my email. I paln to send it again to another list with legislators and lawmakers email adresses on it.
> Call me condoneing it if you want but i will not bother Peta or the hsus, and pray to god everynight they never bother me again. They will take your sport, and way of life away from you like snatching a rug from under your feet, after that you would have the taste in your mouth that i live with. If there were not youngins here i would explain what i would not do in thier ear, if thier brains were on fire literally in front of my face.


This is the way that we should be going about this. Thank you so much for your sensibility and promptness in contacting legislators and the AU.


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## newtopidgeons

Libis said:


> This is the way that we should be going about this. Thank you so much for your sensibility and promptness in contacting legislators and the AU.


No please dont thank me, I feel its our job as pigeon care takers.


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## FrillbackLover

Peta is against us and all pet owners. Not best idea for ally


----------



## West

JaxRacingLofts said:


> I agree PETA as a group is out in left field and they have twisted ideas about taking care of pets but I think the majority of its members will be extremely offended to see the wholesale killing of pigeons and their corpses used to give the body count of the kill.
> You can call it the worst idea ever but this is a war against our feathered friends and sometimes to achieve our goals we will have to ally ourselves with our enemies. I say lets put them to work for a real good cause. All we have to do is link the images SoarNoMore has their websites and their Youtube videos onto their forums and lets see what they do with it.


Lets be honest, if you send your pigeons hundreds of miles away weekly you must accept the many dangers they may encounter. PETA wants pigeon racing to be completely destroyed. You are messing with something that I'm not quite sure you have a good grasp on. I'm sorry but I consider PETA a far greater enemy than a few kids shooting pigeons on dairy farms.


----------



## First To Hatch

I've been ignoring this thread because I knew how upset I'd be, I wish I didn't click on that link. I'm so very sad for those pigeons now, and I know I won't be able to sleep tonight


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## MaryOfExeter

Has anyone contacted the AU or IF about these guys? I feel like they could make a difference.
Mike Tyson should get on TV and tell everyone what these sick people are doing. Or anyone who could get the country's attention.


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## Libis

MaryOfExeter said:


> Has anyone contacted the AU or IF about these guys? I feel like they could make a difference.
> Mike Tyson should get on TV and tell everyone what these sick people are doing. Or anyone who could get the country's attention.


Yes, Newtopigeons contacted the AU. 

I wonder if Tyson would do something like that.


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## MaryOfExeter

He seems to really care about the birds. But the problem is in trying to contact him. You know famous people hardly ever actually notice us normal people.  LOL.


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## newtopidgeons

Do what I did for "famous hunters" they all have some sort of email, granted it goes to someone else but they do work for the people you are trying to contact. If you make them feel the need to forward it to the "famous person" it will get to them. Even if it doesnt, the more people that are made aware betters our odds of recruiting supporters.


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## C.DAHLEN

*1 more reason for lost birds in race day...*

Check out this website promoting pigeon shooting... If you look at some of the pigeons in the pics are banded racing pigeons...
http://www.soarnomore.com/
http://www.soarnomore.com/


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## JaxRacingLofts

This is what I love about Pigeon Talk we can discuss ideas and come to a better understanding together. 
I won't bother giving PETA the satisfaction of seeing dead pigeons as far as I know the hunters could be supported by PETA. After all they are actively eradicating our feathered friends and thats PETA's ultimate goal anyway.
I would say cooler heads prevailed here and we can try contacting our Wildlife Fish and Game officials and see what their opinion is of no limit, wholesale destruction of pigeons are regardless if its on private property or not. 
If their are old federal laws that protect the homing pigeon then we will have to actively go state by state and insist that Wildlife services enforce the law from the Governors office down to the local community level.


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## John_D

An email I had this morning indicates that PETA have been contacted by AU members, so they are certainly aware of the situation.


----------



## newtopidgeons

JaxRacingLofts said:


> This is what I love about Pigeon Talk we can discuss ideas and come to a better understanding together.
> I won't bother giving PETA the satisfaction of seeing dead pigeons as far as I know the hunters could be supported by PETA. After all they are actively eradicating our feathered friends and thats PETA's ultimate goal anyway.
> I would say cooler heads prevailed here and we can try contacting our Wildlife Fish and Game officials and see what their opinion is of no limit, wholesale destruction of pigeons are regardless if its on private property or not.
> If their are old federal laws that protect the homing pigeon then we will have to actively go state by state and insist that Wildlife services enforce the law from the Governors office down to the local community level.


If you call Wildlife and Fisheries call during a time they have "extra" help, when I called the first time the lady was about to send an agent if this was in progress in Louisiana. After I told her no mam' I was just making shure it was illegal. She then said please call monday morning, as she was just dispatch and should only send an agent if it was in progress.

I will call tommorow and make shure but the way she acted was if I was seeing it in progress agents would be in route.
From there you never can say what would happen.
Thier guns have to be checked and there are a million and one stipulations to be carrying a loaded gun and killing anything.
Fines are OUTRAGEOUS, after beeing checked frequently in an area (and usually fined) I know for a fact dove hunters will atleast find another location.
If you hear of it "in progress" I would shurely report it imediately and consistently.


----------



## newtopidgeons

John_D said:


> An email I had this morning indicates that PETA have been contacted by AU members, so they are certainly aware of the situation.


No contribution on my part here.
Short of possibly an email I created being forwarded to them. (that I hope didnt happen)
Im not ashamed that i dont agree with what is going on so,
so be it if my name is on the email they got.
I would just rather them not have seen my name.
again...... 

They are no friend to anyone on this site unless (which I believe holds true) that they are members posing as pigeon fanciers here.
The ARA are animal terrorist, thier tactics are far worse than any animal investigations they bring forth. They LIE CHEAT and STEAL to deprive our neighbors of thier money, to then turn around and use it to try to deprive us of our right to the persuit of happiness.
If people's animals did not make them happy they would not have them, even the "slaughter houses" are happy to have thier animals (for different reasons than mine) but none the less, peta and hsus want to take your right to have/use/eat animals.


----------



## newtopidgeons

John_D said:


> An email I had this morning indicates that PETA have been contacted by AU members, so they are certainly aware of the situation.


I was just wondering, are you on a AU mass mailing list?


----------



## newtopidgeons

Send it to all of your friends/ thier friends, your co-workers, relatives, legislators, even try newspapers. 
Peta knows already evidently.


----------



## Libis

There's already a thread going on this:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/s...-rules-banded-birds-54338.html?highlight=soar


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## John_D

newtopidgeons said:


> I was just wondering, are you on a AU mass mailing list?


No. I have been subscribed to a pigeon email group for even longer than I've been on this forum, and the information about a dialogue between the AU and one of the other subscribers was posted there. So, just passing it on without any names being divulged.


----------



## newtopidgeons

I was only asking so maybe you could help enlighen more that may be unaware of soar no more.
Would you mind pm'ing me how to get on the mailing list, if it is public?
Thanks
Or if it is public and you dont mind would you post it here?


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## John_D

Sure. It requires membership and is a Google group:

http://groups.google.com/group/pml-pigeonring

I believe some of our members subscribe to it already.


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## JaxRacingLofts

*I'm just saying....*

I watched a show I believe was on the Discovery channel about how African villagers kill fire ants. What they do is capture the worker ants from one colony and throw them on top of the the ant hill of another colony. Soon the "invaded" colony goes on the offensive and starts a seek and destroy of the other colonies nest. It doesn't take long for the two rival groups to wipe each other out.

Applying this principal to the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals could be as simple as bragging to them like we were hunters how their "aint no laws to stop to us by gawd" or saying "Its our god given right to kill dem der birds" If that doesn't get them excited nothing will. 

I don't want anyone to think that I'm a PETA sympathizer or anything like that..I hate PETA because if they had it their way they would kill my pit bulls. I'm just saying I'm not afraid to sic them on to the hunters and let them chips fall where they will. 


Now I'm done with this thread..I like the diplomatic approach better but I thought I should clarify my position before people get the wrong idea about my original strategy.


----------



## newtopidgeons

Your right Jax, no sence preaching to the choir.
Everyone here knows and cares.
All we can do is try to properly inform the unimformed.
I emailed about 600 more people today, with alot of senators emails cc.
If the same people get it a thousand times a piece then atleast they will realize how many people are against this.


----------



## newtopidgeons

The amber alert was created by the internet and people spreading news fast.
The internet can reach people all over the world.


----------



## newtopidgeons

Another sugestion/ question.
I dont have a facebook and know little about it,
but couldnt someone set up a"Banded pigeons are peoples pets" facebook and try to get as many people to like it as possible?
I think it would speed up spreading the word atleast.


----------



## whiteroller123

I agree with NayNay...... They are just Blood lust!!! Who knows, they might even not eat those pigeons and it might be a big time waste. Very Very Disappointing .


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

JaxRacingLofts said:


> I will assume this is a response to my suggestion to get PETA on the war path and do our bidding. My thinking for suggesting a radical group such as PETA to advocate the banning of these free for all pigeon shoots is because its is all they do. *They have a well oiled political machine with the media in their back pockets to carry forth their messages. *
> After all "Who agrees with the torturing of small animals for the enjoyment of watching them struggle and die is a good thing?" They have spin doctors that can get the message out and the politicians will want to be seen as putting a stop to it..and next year is another election season so it would not be hard for them to get a group of politician that wants to be seen as promoting the ethical treatment of animals.
> 
> I would say never mind the PETA group all together if pigeon racers where actually a united group but where we have maybe a guesstimate of 50k in the AU and IF combined the PETA group has MILLIONS a of members.
> 
> So it boils down to whats more important? Get some laws on the books that can and will be enforced or hold grudges and then keep sitting at home waiting for your prized bird that will never return because some "sportsman" wanted to kill it for their enjoyment of watching it struggle and die.


 Then why don't we invest our time wisely like I had suggested in an earlier posts, and actually bring some of our political pressure to bear. Don't you have a state representative ? Don't you have a Congress man or woman ? If you have pencil and paper, a telephone, an Internet connection, etc. then you have all the tools available to you. 

If what you say is true, that PETA has all the power and politcal influence, then what, dare I ask, is the purpose of a group such as Pigeon Talk, if all we can do is simply call PETA and ask them to do the work, that we ourselves should be doing ? We don't need no "spin doctors" as you suggest, what we need are a few people who are willing to put forth a little effort on their own, instead of expecting someone else to do it.


----------



## Charis

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Then why don't we invest our time wisely like I had suggested in an earlier posts, and actually bring some of our political pressure to bear. Don't you have a state representative ? Don't you have a Congress man or woman ? If you have pencil and paper, a telephone, an Internet connection, etc. then you have all the tools available to you.
> 
> If what you say is true, that PETA has all the power and politcal influence, then what, *dare I ask, is the purpose of a group such as Pigeon Talk, if all we can do is simply call PETA and ask them to do the work, that we ourselves should be doing ? We don't need no "spin doctors" as you suggest, what we need are a few people who are willing to put forth a little effort on their own, instead of expecting someone else to do it.*


Now your talking!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

All we might have to do here in the Commonwealth of Pa. is locate these people when they are out in a field shooting, and call 911 and report a cruelty to animals complaint. Ideally, one would also be rolling video for evidence later in court. Under Pa. law, there is NO SEASON for pigeons. Which means they are not to be hunted. As per Pa. Game Commission : 

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576240&mode=2 
"No open season on other wild birds or mammals."

Which means that "hunters" out in a field shooting at pigeons, are in violation of the law protecting the state's wildlife, in addition a cruelty to animal complaint. 

As you can see from this article from a local Humane Society : http://berkshumane.net/blog/?p=433 

there are legal changes which must be made here in Pa. There is a move afoot to get some of those changes into law. That is where I am putting my efforts.


----------



## re lee

In some staes pigeons can be shot any time have NO protection at all But if pigeons are trapped it is aginst the law Strange how laws get made. To post thing such as this vidio Is rather dumb. Can the killing be stopped Perhaps with alot of work. Texas used to have a law making it a 25 dollar fine per bird for knowing shooting a banded racing pigeon. People do many things and many things are not something to be proud of But they do it I do not like this as most dont as well It takes a law to stop it And each state has to inact it So if it is in your stae then write your congress man Show hime picture vidios And such Hopefully it may get the needed attention.


----------



## newtopidgeons

re lee said:


> In some staes pigeons can be shot any time have NO protection at all But if pigeons are trapped it is aginst the law Strange how laws get made. To post thing such as this vidio Is rather dumb. Can the killing be stopped Perhaps with alot of work. Texas used to have a law making it a 25 dollar fine per bird for knowing shooting a banded racing pigeon. People do many things and many things are not something to be proud of But they do it I do not like this as most dont as well It takes a law to stop it And each state has to inact it So if it is in your stae then write your congress man Show hime picture vidios And such Hopefully it may get the needed attention.


How are you supposed to make other pigeon flyers aware of whats going on to report it or inquire about it? If this post is dumb to you so be it, it is imformative to others.
I didnt search the net for "folks killing pigeons" I learned about it here on another thread.
Its a sad day when any mod calls any post dumb.
If were dumb for posting in it, your name is also in there


----------



## Kastle Loft

newtopidgeons said:


> How are you supposed to make other pigeon flyers aware of whats going on to report it or inquire about it? If this post is dumb to you so be it, it is imformative to others.
> I didnt search the net for "folks killing pigeons" I learned about it here on another thread.
> Its a sad day when any mod calls any post dumb.
> If were dumb for posting in it, your name is also in there


I think he was saying it was dumb for the hunters to post their video????


----------



## newtopidgeons

Kastle Loft said:


> I think he was saying it was dumb for the hunters to post their video????


Now that I re-read it I think your right.
If so I appologize.
Whole heartedly.


----------



## ERIC K

Now i haven't read all the posts so if someone has already posted this , sorry, if those hunters keep the bands that are registered to the owner of said dead pigeon is that band stolen property ? . The web site showes band numbers if the owner of that band should have some claim to the band. I know its a stretch and almost impossible to prove but...


----------



## JaxRacingLofts

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Then why don't we invest our time wisely like I had suggested in an earlier posts, and actually bring some of our political pressure to bear. Don't you have a state representative ? Don't you have a Congress man or woman ? If you have pencil and paper, a telephone, an Internet connection, etc. then you have all the tools available to you.
> 
> If what you say is true, that PETA has all the power and politcal influence, then what, dare I ask, is the purpose of a group such as Pigeon Talk, if all we can do is simply call PETA and ask them to do the work, that we ourselves should be doing ? We don't need no "spin doctors" as you suggest, what we need are a few people who are willing to put forth a little effort on their own, instead of expecting someone else to do it.


 Sounds like a plan you have. Good Deal, I'm glad the racing pigeon community is finally stepping up and taking notice of the attack are birds are under. If the census is our state representatives will amend the current laws to prohibit this perceived "no limit-open season" on our birds then I'm all for it. Where is the petition so I can sign?

As far as PETA goes I do not like them and obviously they have done a number on the Pigeon Racing community. Just the mention of their name freaks people out and my (admittedly lazy idea) was let them strike the same fear into those pigeon butchers. 

After thinking it through, I see now once they have the power to shut down the hunters then they will soon turn their attention to pigeon racers as being the "cause" of the pigeon hunters in the first place. So it could become a big circular argument. 

Having said that I say bring it on! We as a community have nothing to fear from those liberal eco-hippies. Our pigeons enjoy a rich history of service to mankind and our sport is a noble one. If the Queen of England owns a racing pigeon team and actively races them then its going to be a real hard sell and a stretch for PETA to demagogue this fine sport. 

Our birds are not tortured or whipped into service and forced to race. No our birds race because they love their home. Our birds are given the best housing conditions we can afford, the best feed we can buy and the best supplements we can find. Annually, they are vaccinated and are kept in overall tip top health. Our birds are Flying Athletes and are treated like the stars they are. Why any pigeon racer would fear PETA is beyond me. 

If PETA wants to see real animal abuse let them go after police K-9's that are forced to hunt murderers and rapist..lets see how far they get with trying to make cops give up their 4 legged partners.


----------



## re lee

newtopidgeons said:


> How are you supposed to make other pigeon flyers aware of whats going on to report it or inquire about it? If this post is dumb to you so be it, it is imformative to others.
> I didnt search the net for "folks killing pigeons" I learned about it here on another thread.
> Its a sad day when any mod calls any post dumb.
> If were dumb for posting in it, your name is also in there


Hey now lets WAKEUP I did not say this thread was dumb I said it to post the vidio was DUMB. THAT meant the people that killed the birds and made a vidio for all to see was dumb. So you need to rethink your thoughts Would you post a vidio on you tube of you killing pigeons. Or would you think only a dumb person would do that.


----------



## Libis

JaxRacingLofts said:


> Having said that I say bring it on! We as a community have nothing to fear from those liberal eco-hippies. Our pigeons enjoy a rich history of service to mankind and our sport is a noble one. If the Queen of England owns a racing pigeon team and actively races them then its going to be a real hard sell and a stretch for PETA to demagogue this fine sport.
> 
> Our birds are not tortured or whipped into service and forced to race. No our birds race because they love their home. Our birds are given the best housing conditions we can afford, the best feed we can buy and the best supplements we can find. Annually, they are vaccinated and are kept in overall tip top health. Our birds are Flying Athletes and are treated like the stars they are. Why any pigeon racer would fear PETA is beyond me.


How are you going to convince the general public of all that when much of the public still thinks of pigeons as "flying rats?" We have a hard enough time just educating people far enough to see why anyone would want to have a pigeon. You are giving the public too much credit as though they lack herd mentality, the tendency to jump to conclusions, etc. 

PETA, on the other hand, understands how to use emotions and the herd mentality in a large political and advertising campaign to manipulate the public into donating to them, picketing for them, voting for laws they introduce, etc. And they do it well enough to cause problems for animal lovers all across the nation.

Not to be all gloom and doom on you--but it would be best if they were not involved. 
They will only use it to blacken the good hunters out there who use what they kill properly. (I being one of them. Any animal you hunt should not be wasted so long as there is no risk of disease. Unlike what the sickos on the pigeon shooting site are doing.) After that, they'll turn on pigeon hobbiests further than they already have.


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## Msfreebird

Has anybody seen this site before?
http://peopleforpigeons.blogspot.com/
Possibly any ideas from there? I've been trying to research State and federal laws protecting homing pigeons. Most states have their laws worded 'feral' pigeons, *with the exception of banded homing pigeons*'.
Like I said in an earlier post, these birds are banded 'personal property' and I think this is the angle that has to be used if we are to get anywhere 
These low lifes are stealing and withholding personal property.


----------



## newtopidgeons

re lee said:


> Hey now lets WAKEUP I did not say this thread was dumb I said it to post the vidio was DUMB. THAT meant the people that killed the birds and made a vidio for all to see was dumb. So you need to rethink your thoughts Would you post a vidio on you tube of you killing pigeons. Or would you think only a dumb person would do that.


I already appologized, but since you didnt see it.
I misunderstood your post, and I whole heartedly appologize.


----------



## newtopidgeons

Libis said:


> PETA, on the other hand, understands how to use emotions and the herd mentality in a large political and advertising campaign to manipulate the public into donating to them, picketing for them, voting for laws they introduce, etc. And they do it well enough to cause problems for animal lovers all across the nation.
> 
> Not to be all gloom and doom on you--but it would be best if they were not involved.
> They will only use it to blacken the good hunters out there who use what they kill properly. (I being one of them. Any animal you hunt should not be wasted so long as there is no risk of disease. Unlike what the sickos on the pigeon shooting site are doing.) After that, they'll turn on pigeon hobbiests further than they already have.


This is my exact feelings on the matter.


----------



## re lee

newtopidgeons said:


> I already appologized, but since you didnt see it.
> I misunderstood your post, and I whole heartedly appologize.


No problem i would of reacted to if I misunderstood it also. It will take state action to ban this type of killings. AND the vidio could be used to bring state proposals into law Showing the need for inacting some kind of law.


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## newtopidgeons

re lee said:


> No problem i would of reacted to if I misunderstood it also. It will take state action to ban this type of killings. AND the vidio could be used to bring state proposals into law Showing the need for inacting some kind of law.


I have all thier videos/pictures with banded birds shown in them, saved.
Incase we find use for them in the future.
The law is against knowingly shooting homing pigeons, when Clint Hunt (owner SNM) gives a tutoriol on which birds are likely banded, then it makes it seem obvious to me he KNOWS, and is promoting killing homing pigeons.

Granted they cleaned thier site up, the have also already made atleast one movie, and have another in the making.


----------



## Kastle Loft

newtopidgeons said:


> I have all thier videos/pictures with banded birds shown in them, saved.
> Incase we find use for them in the future.
> The law is against knowingly shooting homing pigeons, when Clint Hunt (owner SNM) gives a tutoriol on which birds are likely banded, then it makes it seem obvious to me he KNOWS, and is promoting killing homing pigeons.
> 
> Granted they cleaned thier site up, the have also already made atleast one movie, and have another in the making.


Which video has the tutorial? I'd like to make a copy of that one myself for future use.


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## newtopidgeons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph5uzoZVOu8
around the 9 minute mark


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## Kastle Loft

Why aren't the pigeon racers in Idaho blowing a gasket over this? Wouldn't most of these birds be theirs? If these guys were in my state I'd surely have a better chance of doing something about it.


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## Kastle Loft

newtopidgeons said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph5uzoZVOu8
> around the 9 minute mark


Thanks. I actually already downloaded this one but I didn't (couldn't) watch much past the one minute mark.


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## newtopidgeons

First few seconds are just disgusting, and it doesnt get better.
That sounds like a siskel and ebert 2 thumbs down review to me.
None the less now you downloaded it you can skip to the 9 minute mark eventually.


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## Charis

I ask you all...how is this different? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLu4PxCC6qw&feature=relmfu


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## newtopidgeons

Soar no more are the ones promoting killing banded pigeons is how it is different. This video of a dead pile was taken by someone, seemingly not involved.
Soar no more shows themselves and others doing the killing. Then entice people to kill banded birds and educate them on how a banded pigeon may look.
Thats how it is alot different.


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## Charis

Many of the pigeon killed in the shoots are banded too. They may be lost ... are netted in NYC and transported to Pennsylvania. If you want a video of the pigeons being shot...I can provide that too. I thought it too graphic.
Ya know...cruely is cruelty. There are no degrees. I can't figure out why y'all are not out raged.


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## newtopidgeons

Yeah me either, 8 pages here of commending theese guys.
Are you drunk, or did you just not read the rest of the thread?
I hope not worse than both.


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## newtopidgeons

Charis said:


> Many of the pigeon killed in the shoots are banded too. They may be lost ... are netted in NYC and transported to Pennsylvania. If you want a video of the pigeons being shot...I can provide that too. I thought it too graphic.
> Ya know...cruely is cruelty. There are no degrees. I can't figure out why y'all are not out raged.


Soar no more are the ones promoting killing banded pigeons is how it is different. This video of a dead pile was taken by someone, seemingly not involved.
Soar no more shows themselves and others doing the killing. Then entice people to kill banded birds and educate them on how a banded pigeon may look.
Thats how it is alot different.


Maybe you didnt even read this either


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## rpalmer

Charis said:


> Many of the pigeon killed in the shoots are banded too. They may be lost ... are netted in NYC and transported to Pennsylvania. If you want a video of the pigeons being shot...I can provide that too. I thought it too graphic.
> Ya know...cruely is cruelty. There are no degrees. I can't figure out why y'all are not out raged.


As pointed out to me ... this site is for pigeon advocacy. So everyone should be morally outraged by the dead pigeons on the link you provided. Killed is killed.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Charis said:


> I ask you all...how is this different?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLu4PxCC6qw&feature=relmfu



In the link you provide, the pigeons are captured elsewhere and transported to a site to be released and shot. In this thread, the issue is a company advising their customers how to attract pigeons to their location with decoys, and then they are shot. Two totally different "sports", which would be obvious to the those "hunters" which engage in this type of activity. One is an organized event at a cental location, the other is not. 

The organized pigeon shoots are illegal in many states. The video you showed was from Pa. where a bill has been floating around in the Pa. house and senate to outlaw such. There were arrests at this last Pa. event, as people were charged by agents of the SPCA. Unfortunately, there are legal issues in Pa. which still need to be settled. But even in Pa., the type of pigeon shooting promoted by "Soar No More" is illegal, since there is no open season for pigeons in this state. Which means they may not be hunted. 

I think many members of PT who have posted here, miss the point entirely. I could care less if the pigeons are banded or not. The actions of these people, in either video, are considered a violation of the law in many states. My point in bringing some of these things to the attention of members of this pigeon advocacy group, is to actually get folks to do something other then simply posting on this thread.

My State Representative in Pa., State Representative Eugene DePasquale, has been a key sponsor & co-sponsor of legislation to ban this activity. It is within the political arena, where laws are made and passed. The ironic part, is that I sometimes get a warmer reponse and support for such changes in the law from politicans and the public at large, then I sometimes get from members of PT or the pigeon fancier community. I don't know why exactly that is. Here we sometimes get a response like..."If my race birds go down to drink or eat at a decoy and get blasted away...then they deserve it "...sic"...or we invest our time debating if PETA should be notified. Or we expect the AU or IF to be doing all the heavey lifting, while we complain about an extra nickle or quarter for leg bands in order to support such work.


----------



## PigeonVilla

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In the link you provide, the pigeons are captured elsewhere and transported to a site to be released and shot. In this thread, the issue is a company advising their customers how to attract pigeons to their location with decoys, and then they are shot. Two totally different "sports", which would be obvious to the those "hunters" which engage in this type of activity. One is an organized event at a cental location, the other is not.
> 
> The organized pigeon shoots are illegal in many states. The video you showed was from Pa. where a bill has been floating around in the Pa. house and senate to outlaw such. There were arrests at this last Pa. event, as people were charged by agents of the SPCA. Unfortunately, there are legal issues in Pa. which still need to be settled. But even in Pa., the type of pigeon shooting promoted by "Soar No More" is illegal, since there is no open season for pigeons in this state. Which means they may not be hunted.
> 
> I think many members of PT who have posted here, miss the point entirely. I could care less if the pigeons are banded or not. The actions of these people, in either video, are considered a violation of the law in many states. My point in bringing some of these things to the attention of members of this pigeon advocacy group, is to actually get folks to do something other then simply posting on this thread.
> 
> My State Representative in Pa., State Representative Eugene DePasquale, has been a key sponsor & co-sponsor of legislation to ban this activity. It is within the political arena, where laws are made and passed. The ironic part, is that I sometimes get a warmer reponse and support for such changes in the law from politicans and the public at large, then I sometimes get from members of PT or the pigeon fancier community. I don't know why exactly that is. Here we sometimes get a response like..."If my race birds go down to drink or eat at a decoy and get blasted away...then they deserve it "...sic"...or we invest our time debating if PETA should be notified. Or we expect the AU or IF to be doing all the heavey lifting, while we complain about an extra nickle or quarter for leg bands in order to support such work.


 All this just makes me hate people more ,if it was up to me these people would be curbed with thier desire to kill things for fun .I would have to say these people that blast birds for fun are just sick in general . Why is it that there are so many laws to protect so many things but nothing is out there to protect a bird that has a home and is of worth to someone somewhere ?


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## ccccrnr

*All other bird bands are shooters, but not Pigeons*

please try to understand the whole picture

Feral pigeon over population is a problem. One that ultimately ends with killing of the feral pigeons.

But these guys don't know what a feral pigeon is (most states have existing laws that encourage shooting Feral pigeons) and what a domestic pigeon is (someones personal property)

This is clear at the end of the 1st video where they talk about increasing your chances of shooting "banded birds" by targeting Blue Bar pigeons and targeting All White pigeons.

Now let me explain why Duck Hunters think they are doing the right thing by shooting Banded pigeons. That is because for over 80 years now the US Federal Government thought the Department of the Interior and its counter part in the Canadian Government. Has banded Ducks, Geese, Swans, Wigeons, etc. And when a Duck/Goose Hunter sees one of these birds in season they are SUPPOSE to shoot them and CALL IN the phone number on the Band. 
This is done to monitor the flight paths health and size of the flocks by collecting data on an international scale.
And if a duck hunter doesn't get the band and call the band in and is caught, they will be fined or go to Jail.

So this is an Education problem of over 80 years hunters being incouraged to shoot and report all kinds of banded birds, ducks, geese, woodcock, wigeon, quail, etc
Every Bird Except Pigeons. where it is just the opposite of every other bird that is hunted in North America, as the banded birds are the only ones that Should be left alone.


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## Charis

cccrnr...it matters not wheather a pigeon is feral or banded...cruelty is cruelty. It matters not if there is an over population of feral pigeons...cruelty is still cruelty and over population is not a good reason at all to justify cruelty.


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## mikel

i think the club near there should do something,the farmer there treats pigeons as a pest and they somewhat thanks the soar no more for getting rid of ot,if the club there help the farmers on their problem on the ferals they can also teach them that banded pigeons have owners,I think if the farmers don't regard the pigeons as pest then the soar no more are not going to be welcome in their fields


----------



## newtopidgeons

Charis said:


> cccrnr...it matters not wheather a pigeon is feral or banded...cruelty is cruelty. It matters not if there is an over population of feral pigeons...cruelty is still cruelty and over population is not a good reason at all to justify cruelty.


It matters in the sence of the law.
Just because its your opinion thats its no different does not mean your right.
You repeat the same reply in different words every time someone trys to explain the difference.
IT IS ILLEGAL TO KNOWINGLY KILL A HOMING PIGEON, FERALS DO NOT HAVE ANY LAWS PROTECTING THEM. 
If you havnt figured out the difference yet your a lost cause.
As far as cruelty goes, there are alot worse cruel ways of killing feral pigeons.
Its not a matter of cruelty anyway its a matter of right or wrong, intentionally killing banded pigeons is illegal and makes it wrong.
There are no laws protecting feral pigeons and killing them is not illegal and someone is not breaking the law who is Charis to tell them they are wrong?
You sound like a peta head to me


----------



## jpsnapdy

horseart4u said:


> i did it..who's with me?


Done it too.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

newtopidgeons said:


> It matters in the sence of the law.
> Just because its your opinion thats its no different does not mean your right.
> You repeat the same reply in different words every time someone trys to explain the difference.
> *IT IS ILLEGAL TO KNOWINGLY KILL A HOMING PIGEON, FERALS DO NOT HAVE ANY LAWS PROTECTING THEM. *If you havnt figured out the difference yet your a lost cause.
> As far as cruelty goes, there are alot worse cruel ways of killing feral pigeons.
> Its not a matter of cruelty anyway its a matter of right or wrong, intentionally killing banded pigeons is illegal and makes it wrong.
> *There are no laws protecting feral pigeons and killing them is not illegal *and someone is not breaking the law who is Charis to tell them they are wrong?
> You sound like a peta head to me



First of all, there is no need for any kind of name calling. 

Please provide a link showing the laws you are referring to. I mean just you saying it is illegal, or not illegal, does not make it so. I would like to see the Federal Statute making it a crime to shoot a Homing Pigeon. And the Federal law which would make state laws making it illegal to shoot "feral" pigeons unconstitutional. 

Your statements, at least as far as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is concerned, are simply false. If you can provide evidence to the contrary I certainly would like to see your documentation. The pigeon does *NOT *have a hunting season in my state, and as such, is protected by state game laws.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576240&mode=2
(No open season on other wild birds or mammals. Waterfowl and Migratory Game Bird seasons will be established in accordance with Federal Regulations this summer.)


If you should come to Pennsylvania and shoot a pigeon, banded or not, I don't think telling the judge that *"there are alot worse cruel ways of killing feral pigeons"* is going to be much of a legal defense. 

Hopefully, as time goes on, you will develop an appreciation for the pigeon, and not be so concerned as to the status of a pigeon being banded or not. The Pa. Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals did not seem concerned with whether or not pigeons were banded or not, when charges of animal cruelty were brought against people involved in a recent pigeon shoot. So, what is your hang up with cruelty to "wild" pigeons ? Don't you like pigeons ? Or is it just "banded" pigeons which you appreciate ?


----------



## rpalmer

*18 USC Sec. 45 02/01/2010*

18 USC Sec. 45 02/01/2010

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 3 - ANIMALS, BIRDS, FISH, AND PLANTS

-HEAD-
Sec. 45. Repealed.

-MISC1-
[Sec. 45. Repealed. Pub. L. 101-647, title XII, Sec. 1206(a), Nov.
29, 1990, 104 Stat. 4832].
Section, act June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 688, related to
penalties for capturing or killing carrier pigeons.

-CITE-
50 USC Secs. 111 to 113 02/01/2010

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 50 - WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
CHAPTER 7 - INTERFERENCE WITH HOMING PIGEONS OWNED BY UNITED STATES

-HEAD-
Secs. 111 to 113. Repealed.

-MISC1-
Secs. 111 to 113. Repealed. June 25, 1948, ch. 645, Sec. 21, 62
Stat. 862.
Section 111, act Apr. 19, 1918, ch. 58, Sec. 1, 40 Stat. 533,
related to prohibited acts affecting homing pigeons owned by United
States. See section 45 of Title 18, Crimes and Criminal Procedure.
Section 112, act Apr. 19, 1918, ch. 58, Sec. 2, 40 Stat. 533,
related to possession of pigeons as evidence of violation of law.
See section 45 of Title 18.
Section 113, act Apr. 19, 1918, ch. 58, Sec. 3, 40 Stat. 533,
related to punishment. See section 45 of Title 18.

EFFECTIVE DATE OF REPEAL
Repeal of sections 111 to 113 effective Sept. 1, 1948, see
section 38 of act June 25, 1948, set out as an Effective Date note
preceding section 1 of Title 28, Judiciary and Judicial Procedure.


----------



## ccccrnr

Warren,

it appears PA wildlife conservation considers the pigeon to be extinct, therefore would not have a legal shooting season.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/porta..._hi_userid=2&control=bannerstart&cached=false

in missouri feral hogs and feral pigeons are open year round (only animals that are)
http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/wi...nimal-management/controlling-nuisance-pigeons


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

rpalmer said:


> 18 USC Sec. 45 02/01/2010
> 
> -EXPCITE-
> TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
> PART I - CRIMES
> CHAPTER 3 - ANIMALS, BIRDS, FISH, AND PLANTS
> 
> -HEAD-
> Sec. 45. Repealed.
> 
> -MISC1-
> [Sec. 45. Repealed. Pub. L. 101-647, title XII, Sec. 1206(a), Nov.
> 29, 1990, 104 Stat. 4832].
> Section, act June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 688, related to
> penalties for capturing or killing carrier pigeons.
> 
> -CITE-
> 50 USC Secs. 111 to 113 02/01/2010
> 
> -EXPCITE-
> TITLE 50 - WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
> CHAPTER 7 - INTERFERENCE WITH HOMING PIGEONS OWNED BY UNITED STATES
> 
> -HEAD-
> Secs. 111 to 113. Repealed.
> 
> -MISC1-
> Secs. 111 to 113. Repealed. June 25, 1948, ch. 645, Sec. 21, 62
> Stat. 862.
> Section 111, act Apr. 19, 1918, ch. 58, Sec. 1, 40 Stat. 533,
> related to prohibited acts affecting homing pigeons owned by United
> States. See section 45 of Title 18, Crimes and Criminal Procedure.
> Section 112, act Apr. 19, 1918, ch. 58, Sec. 2, 40 Stat. 533,
> related to possession of pigeons as evidence of violation of law.
> See section 45 of Title 18.
> Section 113, act Apr. 19, 1918, ch. 58, Sec. 3, 40 Stat. 533,
> related to punishment. See section 45 of Title 18.
> 
> EFFECTIVE DATE OF REPEAL
> Repeal of sections 111 to 113 effective Sept. 1, 1948, see
> section 38 of act June 25, 1948, set out as an Effective Date note
> preceding section 1 of Title 28, Judiciary and Judicial Procedure.


Like I said, where is the link ? You have not demostrated there is any current Federal statue making it a violation of Federal Law to shoot a homing pigeon. I see old references to carrier pigeons. I see old references relating to pigeons owned by the United States. I see a lot of references to repealed items. Maybe such laws applied back in the early part of the 20th century, when the US goverment owned homing pigeons, and they were used for communications. I have no doubt, if you went and shot a bunch of US goverment pigeons of a US pigeon loft, you would have been put up on charges. 

But, that was a very long time ago. As a practical matter, without Federal Agencies enforcing a law which might be on the books somewhere, any such law is pretty much useless. If you can provide case law examples where someone was actually charged by a Federal Agency, and convicted of such, then you will have demostrated the illegality of shooting a Homing pigeon in 2011.

The legal case in Pa., where people engaged/organized an organized shoot, were not charged by the Feds. They were not charged with shooting Homing pigeons. They were simply charged with cruelaty to animals under state law.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

ccccrnr said:


> Warren,
> 
> it appears PA wildlife conservation considers the pigeon to be extinct, therefore would not have a legal shooting season.
> 
> http://www.portal.state.pa.us/porta..._hi_userid=2&control=bannerstart&cached=false
> 
> in missouri feral hogs and feral pigeons are open year round (only animals that are)
> http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/wi...nimal-management/controlling-nuisance-pigeons





That link does not work for me. Shows me 74 links. I do not know which department you mean when you say Pa. Wildlife Conservation. There is a Pa. Department of Conservation. 

At any rate, hunting and the listing of seasons, would be under the management of Pennsyvania Game Commission. If they do not have a season listed, then the bird or animal may not be hunted. Pretty simple and straight forward. No need to worry if a specie is extinct or not, or is no longer native. We don't have wolves anymore since they were considered a "pest" and killed off. If some should show up, you can't shoot it, even if "extinct" in Pa., since they are not on the list.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576240&mode=2
(*No open season on other wild birds *or mammals. Waterfowl and Migratory Game Bird seasons will be established in accordance with Federal Regulations this summer.)


If the Pennsyvania Game Commission thinks that the homing pigeon is extinct, then please provide the link to the article where they so state, that way I can set them straight.  As far as Miissouri link, I am surprized that the state is so far backwards. Their link is full of misguided information, some of which is simply false such as pigeons carry disease which can be transmitted to humans. I would certainly like to know what it is exactly that I can catch from a pigeon ? But I digress.....


----------



## rpalmer

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Like I said, where is the link ? You have not demostrated there is any current Federal statue making it a violation of Federal Law to shoot a homing pigeon. I see old references to carrier pigeons. I see old references relating to pigeons owned by the United States. I see a lot of references to repealed items. Maybe such laws applied back in the early part of the 20th century, when the US goverment owned homing pigeons, and they were used for communications. I have no doubt, if you went and shot a bunch of US goverment pigeons of a US pigeon loft, you would have been put up on charges.
> 
> But, that was a very long time ago. As a practical matter, without Federal Agencies enforcing a law which might be on the books somewhere, any such law is pretty much useless. If you can provide case law examples where someone was actually charged by a Federal Agency, and convicted of such, then you will have demostrated the illegality of shooting a Homing pigeon in 2011.
> 
> The legal case in Pa., where people engaged/organized an organized shoot, were not charged by the Feds. They were not charged with shooting Homing pigeons. They were simply charged with cruelaty to animals under state law.


Warren, Your reading skills need improving. 

*18 USC Sec. 45 02/01/2010*

Every Federal law on the books pertaining to pigeons has been *Repealed*!

*EFFECTIVE DATE OF REPEAL
Repeal of sections 111 to 113 effective Sept. 1, 1948, see
section 38 of act June 25, 1948, set out as an Effective Date note
preceding section 1 of Title 28, Judiciary and Judicial Procedure.
*

That means that going back to when the laws were created is the effective date as of *02/01/2010*.

I don't see how the link will help you since you did not understand the cut and paste copy of it here. 

Some states might have laws to deal with pigeons but Federal Law does not.

Take a chill pill maybe try to cool down some.

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?search


----------



## Alamo

There is a bridge 5 miles from my loft..In 2010,there was probally 150 to 200 pigeons living under the bridge...A few times,I have seen pure whites,beautifull grizzles etc...They were probally bred in lofts....Well,there are maybe only 10 pigeons now living there....They were probally poisoned,to get rid of them...Sorry to say,this happens quite often around the USA...I don`t like the ferals,but I do feel sorry for them....Alamo


----------



## rpalmer

Alamo said:


> There is a bridge 5 miles from my loft..In 2010,there was probally 150 to 200 pigeons living under the bridge...A few times,I have seen pure whites,beautifull grizzles etc...They were probally bred in lofts....Well,there are maybe only 10 pigeons now living there....They were probally poisoned,to get rid of them...Sorry to say,this happens quite often around the USA...I don`t like the ferals,but I do feel sorry for them....Alamo


A couple of years ago you could see pigeons on all the government buildings downtown and on the old buildings along a main drag in my part of town. They are all gone. Everyone of them.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

rpalmer said:


> Warren, *Your reading skills need improving. **18 USC Sec. 45 02/01/2010*
> 
> Every Federal law on the books pertaining to pigeons has been *Repealed*!
> 
> *EFFECTIVE DATE OF REPEAL
> Repeal of sections 111 to 113 effective Sept. 1, 1948, see
> section 38 of act June 25, 1948, set out as an Effective Date note
> preceding section 1 of Title 28, Judiciary and Judicial Procedure.
> *
> 
> That means that going back to when the laws were created is the effective date as of *02/01/2010*.
> 
> I don't see how the link will help you since you did not understand the cut and paste copy of it here.
> 
> Some states might have laws to deal with pigeons but Federal Law does not.
> 
> Take a chill pill maybe try to cool down some.
> 
> http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?search



Well, Newtopigeons said "IT IS ILLEGAL TO KNOWINGLY KILL A HOMING PIGEON," and so I asked, please show me the law. Then you provide a cut and paste job, showing laws that were repealed. So, who is it that needs to brush up on their reading skills ? 

What would I need to chill about ?

And your link is broken. And yes, if there is no Federal Law, then of course any laws regarding pigeons would fall to the states, just like everything else. Which was exactly my point, there is NO FEDERAL law contrary to Newtopigeons statement, and it is illegal in some states to "hunt" feral pigeons.


----------



## rpalmer

http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml Enter pigeon.


----------



## newtopidgeons

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> First of all, there is no need for any kind of name calling.
> 
> Please provide a link showing the laws you are referring to. I mean just you saying it is illegal, or not illegal, does not make it so. I would like to see the Federal Statute making it a crime to shoot a Homing Pigeon. And the Federal law which would make state laws making it illegal to shoot "feral" pigeons unconstitutional.
> 
> Your statements, at least as far as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is concerned, are simply false. If you can provide evidence to the contrary I certainly would like to see your documentation. The pigeon does *NOT *have a hunting season in my state, and as such, is protected by state game laws.
> 
> http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=576240&mode=2
> (No open season on other wild birds or mammals. Waterfowl and Migratory Game Bird seasons will be established in accordance with Federal Regulations this summer.)
> 
> 
> If you should come to Pennsylvania and shoot a pigeon, banded or not, I don't think telling the judge that *"there are alot worse cruel ways of killing feral pigeons"* is going to be much of a legal defense.
> 
> Hopefully, as time goes on, you will develop an appreciation for the pigeon, and not be so concerned as to the status of a pigeon being banded or not. The Pa. Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals did not seem concerned with whether or not pigeons were banded or not, when charges of animal cruelty were brought against people involved in a recent pigeon shoot. So, what is your hang up with cruelty to "wild" pigeons ? Don't you like pigeons ? Or is it just "banded" pigeons which you appreciate ?


Just the banded ones are the only ones Im worried with, specifically my own.
Your right.


----------



## Charis

newtopidgeons said:


> It matters in the sence of the law.
> *Just because its your opinion thats its no different does not mean your right.*You repeat the same reply in different words every time someone trys to explain the difference.
> IT IS ILLEGAL TO KNOWINGLY KILL A HOMING PIGEON, FERALS DO NOT HAVE ANY LAWS PROTECTING THEM.
> *If you havnt figured out the difference yet your a lost cause.*As far as cruelty goes, there are alot worse cruel ways of killing feral pigeons.
> Its not a matter of cruelty anyway its a matter of right or wrong, intentionally killing banded pigeons is illegal and makes it wrong.
> There are no laws protecting feral pigeons and killing them is not illegal and someone is not breaking the law who is Charis to tell them they are wrong?
> *You sound like a peta head to me:cool*:


Cruelty is cruelty. ..pain is pain.... a livng being can't be just a litle dead..... there are no degrees. I sure am right about that.

I don't think *you *are listening. 

I'm not a PETA member but thanks for the compliment anyway.


----------



## Flying Jay

Thats pretty freakin sad they call it extra points for a banded bird. They actually try to take out birds with bands.


----------



## newtopidgeons

Charis said:


> Cruelty is cruelty. ..pain is pain.... a livng being can't be just a litle dead..... there are no degrees. I sure am right about that.
> 
> I don't think *you *are listening.
> 
> I'm not a PETA member but thanks for the compliment anyway.


I dont care to listen.

Especially to you.
Go forth and save all animals from humans.


----------



## Karel Minor

*One or two phone calls could end pigeon shoots....*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Which means that "hunters" out in a field shooting at pigeons, are in violation of the law protecting the state's wildlife, in addition a cruelty to animal complaint.


Actually, if they were out shooting pigeons flying around freely in fields it would make an easier case to prosecute because it would clearly be illegal hunting.

What the pigeons shooters actually do is shoot captured pigeons as they fly out of boxes at organized shoots, not "fair chase" hunting. Although this is still clearly not a protected activity, it is so clearly not "real" hunting that the Game Commission does not (can not?) step in. It is up to local charges to be filed by local police or cruelty officers.

Unfortunately, local police and cruelty officers have been barred from charging in two of the three counties holding shoots by the elected DA, one of whom actually received campaign contributions from the pro-pigeon shoot group, Pennsylvania Flyers Association. 

In the one County where the DA allowed charges the judge decided that there was some sort of mystical "tradition" defense which trumped written law.

If you live in PA, you should CALL (not email) your Representative and Senator and ask him or her to support and co-sponsor the pigeon shoot bill passed in the Senate Judiciary Committee this year.

If you do not live in PA, call both the majority and minority leaders in the House and Senate and tell them that pigeon shoots impact your view of PA and may impact your willingness to travel to PA. You may not have a vote, but you can vote with your dollars.

Easy search option for contact here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/index.cfm

We are closer than we have ever been to getting the ban passed. Every single call puts us closer still.

Karel Minor, Executive Director
Humane Society of Berks County


----------



## Karel Minor

newtopidgeons said:


> It matters in the sence of the law.
> Just because its your opinion thats its no different does not mean your right.
> You repeat the same reply in different words every time someone trys to explain the difference.
> IT IS ILLEGAL TO KNOWINGLY KILL A HOMING PIGEON, FERALS DO NOT HAVE ANY LAWS PROTECTING THEM.
> If you havnt figured out the difference yet your a lost cause.
> As far as cruelty goes, there are alot worse cruel ways of killing feral pigeons.
> Its not a matter of cruelty anyway its a matter of right or wrong, intentionally killing banded pigeons is illegal and makes it wrong.
> There are no laws protecting feral pigeons and killing them is not illegal and someone is not breaking the law who is Charis to tell them they are wrong?
> You sound like a peta head to me


May I suggest that you may both be missing the point? PA law does provide for an exemption from cruelty charges based on "pest control". If feral pigeons are a pest nuisance they may be killed. However, the pigeons used at shoots are trapped out of state. "Pest control" is hardly a defense when you are controlling another states pests by bringing them to PA and shooting them as part of a sporting event.

It is not true that there are no laws protecting pigeons. PA cruelty law protects all animals except those specifically exempted via "standard agricutural practice", "Pest control", "self-defense", and "Game Code expemption". The wanton and cruel killing (which these shoots most certainly are) of any animal may be subject to prosection in PA if these defenses are not satisfied.

It would clearly be illegal to round up feral cats (also considered pests and also permitted to be captured and killed as "pest") and release them from boxes to shoot at them as part of a for profit sporting event. Yes, they are just as dead but the context maters under the law. So, Charis, this guy is right that "cruelty is cruelty" is a philosophical argument, not a legal one.

However, he's equally wrong in claiming that because you can kill something in one setting, it's legal to kill it in any setting. "Legal is legal" is not the case in the law. Where, how and why you do something is obviously relavent. The fact that having sex with your wife at home is legal hardly makes the case that it's legal to do it in the fountain at your local mall on a Sunday afternoon.

Conflating cruelty and legality or situational legalities are both bad approaches. The legal reality is that pigeon shoots do not have a legal protection in PA based on current cruelty law except DAs and judges will not permit prosecutions or convictions for a variety of reasons (generally claiming a lack of clarity in the law). The answer is to pass an explicit ban if you want them gone or pass an explicit exemption if you want them and want cruelty officers to stop pursuing these cases.

Karel Minor, Executive Director
Humane Society of Berks County


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Karel Minor said:


> Actually, if they were out shooting pigeons flying around freely in fields it would make an easier case to prosecute because it would clearly be illegal hunting.
> 
> What the pigeons shooters actually do is shoot captured pigeons as they fly out of boxes at organized shoots, not "fair chase" hunting. Although this is still clearly not a protected activity, it is so clearly not "real" hunting that the Game Commission does not (can not?) step in. It is up to local charges to be filed by local police or cruelty officers.
> 
> Unfortunately, local police and cruelty officers have been barred from charging in two of the three counties holding shoots by the elected DA, one of whom actually received campaign contributions from the pro-pigeon shoot group, Pennsylvania Flyers Association.
> 
> In the one County where the DA allowed charges the judge decided that there was some sort of mystical "tradition" defense which trumped written law.
> 
> If you live in PA, you should CALL (not email) your Representative and Senator and ask him or her to support and co-sponsor the pigeon shoot bill passed in the Senate Judiciary Committee this year.
> 
> If you do not live in PA, call both the majority and minority leaders in the House and Senate and tell them that pigeon shoots impact your view of PA and may impact your willingness to travel to PA. You may not have a vote, but you can vote with your dollars.
> 
> Easy search option for contact here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/index.cfm
> 
> We are closer than we have ever been to getting the ban passed. Every single call puts us closer still.
> 
> Karel Minor, Executive Director
> Humane Society of Berks County


Hello Karel,

Thank you so much for coming on pigeon talk and sharing with us ! I have visited my State Rep in person, and he is a sponser, co-sponser of the bill which would outlaw these organized shoots. Your group has done a lot to help make people aware of what has been going on in Pa. and I certainly do appreciate your efforts.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Karel Minor said:


> May I suggest that you may both be missing the point? PA law does provide for an exemption from cruelty charges based on "pest control". If feral pigeons are a pest nuisance they may be killed. However, the pigeons used at shoots are trapped out of state. "Pest control" is hardly a defense when you are controlling another states pests by bringing them to PA and shooting them as part of a sporting event.
> 
> It is not true that there are no laws protecting pigeons. PA cruelty law protects all animals except those specifically exempted via "standard agricutural practice", "Pest control", "self-defense", and "Game Code expemption". The wanton and cruel killing (which these shoots most certainly are) of any animal may be subject to prosection in PA if these defenses are not satisfied.
> 
> It would clearly be illegal to round up feral cats (also considered pests and also permitted to be captured and killed as "pest") and release them from boxes to shoot at them as part of a for profit sporting event. Yes, they are just as dead but the context maters under the law. So, Charis, this guy is right that "cruelty is cruelty" is a philosophical argument, not a legal one.
> 
> However, he's equally wrong in claiming that because you can kill something in one setting, it's legal to kill it in any setting. "Legal is legal" is not the case in the law. Where, how and why you do something is obviously relavent. The fact that having sex with your wife at home is legal hardly makes the case that it's legal to do it in the fountain at your local mall on a Sunday afternoon.
> 
> Conflating cruelty and legality or situational legalities are both bad approaches. The legal reality is that pigeon shoots do not have a legal protection in PA based on current cruelty law except DAs and judges will not permit prosecutions or convictions for a variety of reasons (generally claiming a lack of clarity in the law). The answer is to pass an explicit ban if you want them gone or pass an explicit exemption if you want them and want cruelty officers to stop pursuing these cases.
> 
> Karel Minor, Executive Director
> Humane Society of Berks County



I didn't really address the "organized" pigeon shoots which are illegal in most states. The subject of this thread was really the unorgainzed shoots where they are shot in the wild by "hunters". Most hunters I have spoken with, do not see the "sport" in shooting a hundred or more pigeons in an afternoon over decoys. And in Pa. they are protected under Pa. game laws, but not in every state. Bringing these "blood sports" to the attention of the public, and providing education about these issues, is a task that all of us who are pigeon lovers should do our best to help shed light on these various "killing for fun" activities.


----------



## 4nursebee

I only read about half the posts here so if I missed the argument against this forgive me.

It looks like they are on private property protecting their feed and cattle. They are clearly young and immature but that is not a crime. Do pigeon people allow their birds to fly around looking for food?

I have a greater problem with the crowded conditions on the feedlot where immobile cows are fattened for our countries gluttons.

I would think that feed mills would only hope for a solution so easy.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

4nursebee said:


> I only read about half the posts here so if* I missed the argument against this forgive me.*
> It looks like they are on private property protecting their feed and cattle. They are clearly young and immature *but that is not a crime*. Do pigeon people allow their birds to fly around looking for food?
> 
> I have a greater problem with the crowded conditions on the feedlot where immobile cows are fattened for our countries gluttons.
> 
> I would think that feed mills would only hope for a solution so easy.


Depends on what part of the country you are from. In our county, being stupid is a crime, as stupid people get locked up all the time. If you ask them, they will swear that they are innocent, so the only reason they must be in jail is because they were guilty of being stupid. In the video you mention, I don't think those cows were being attacked by the pigeons, so not sure how the cows were being protected.

If one need's an argument as to why putting up decoys and shooting a hundred or more birds at a time, "just for fun", as they were not there to "protect" anything, and they typically are not eaten. Well, let's just say that you fall out of the main stream. Even hunters I know do not think that this is any kind of "sport" from their perspective. Most folks just think it's sort of twisted. It is illegal in many states, it is illegal in Pa.


----------



## 4nursebee

If you had hundreds of mice enter your loft, eat your food, carry disease, what would you do?

Would you eat them?




They were not doing catch, release, shoot.


----------



## ace in the hole

Hunters eat what they kill. This is just killing for fun. I do not see that as a sport.


----------



## rpalmer

ace in the hole said:


> Hunters eat what they kill. This is just killing for fun. I do not see that as a sport.


Not many groundhogs get eaten after they are killed. And while a kill shot from a .22 cal. can be satisfying while ground hog hunting, I'm not sure that satisfying and fun are the same thing. But to roll a groundhog with a .22 cal. at anything close to or over 50 yards is very satisfying. You would call it killing for fun. I say you don't know what you are talking about. Go read a book on how to swim and the jump in.


----------



## ace in the hole

rpalmer said:


> Not many groundhogs get eaten after they are killed. And while a kill shot from a .22 cal. can be satisfying while ground hog hunting, I'm not sure that satisfying and fun are the same thing. But to roll a groundhog with a .22 cal. at anything close to or over 50 yards is very satisfying. You would call it killing for fun. I say you don't know what you are talking about. Go read a book on how to swim and the jump in.


I know more about it than you will ever know so I would say you are barking up the wrong tree here. I have not only hunted ground hog I have ate ground hog. Traped and ate the racoons and muskrat I traped. I was brought up country, hunting and fishing. I think it's you that needs to read more and talk less about things you don't understand.


----------



## ccccrnr

Warren, 

you are dragging together 2 disconnected separate topics.

A) Feral Pigeon Hunting 
(by the video you posted of of some young ignorant decoy salesmen/capitalist) 

B) Pennsylvania's Boxed/Caged Pigeon Shoots
(a Pennsylvania slaughterering of pigeons brought improperly into Pennsylvania)


----------



## 4nursebee

ccccrnr = +1


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

ccccrnr said:


> Warren,
> 
> you are dragging together 2 disconnected separate topics.
> 
> A) Feral Pigeon Hunting
> (by the video you posted of of some young ignorant decoy salesmen/capitalist)
> 
> B) Pennsylvania's Boxed/Caged Pigeon Shoots
> (a Pennsylvania slaughterering of pigeons brought improperly into Pennsylvania)


 There are two main types of "blood sport" when it comes to killing pigeons, but I don't really see a whole lot of difference. In the one, the pigeons are captured at a seperate location, and then released to be shot. In the other, pigeons are lured to a location with decoys and then shot. I don't see how either "blood sport" are disconnected or seperate topics. The result is the same, piles of dead pigeons. 

Perhaps there are those who feel one is better then the other, or that one is more "sporting". As a pigeon lover, I don't think either is "sporting", and as a member of this pigeon advocacy group, it would be rather strange if I condoned such activity. If readers are not opposed to pigeons being killed by both A) and B) above, then you are really on the wrong blog site.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

4nursebee said:


> If you had hundreds of mice enter your loft, eat your food, carry disease, what would you do?
> 
> Would you eat them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were not doing catch, release, shoot.


How is this relavant to the discussion of this thread ? Which is a discussion about the practices of some people who get together at either organized shoots or attracting pigeons to decoys and then shooting them. 

This is a pigeon advocacy group. Comparing pigeons shot at an organized shoot, or those birds which were killed when approaching decoys, to a problem of mice and disease is not appreciated. If you wish to post comments on here in support of killing pigeons, then your comments will be removed and your posting privilages will be restricted or removed.


----------



## 4nursebee

The video shows pigeons already present prior to decoy deployment. They were handling an existing problem, in fact they said something like "should we put these over there where the pigeons are?"

So Warren, could I travel near York PA, put some of those colorful pieces of cardboard on the ground and lure your birds? I live near some major roads that serve for training and race release points, can I put these out in my yard to add some birds to a breeding loft? Will they work just as fast as the video, just put them on the ground and instantly pigeons appear?


----------



## Msfreebird

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> There are two main types of "blood sport" when it comes to killing pigeons, but I don't really see a whole lot of difference. In the one, the pigeons are captured at a seperate location, and then released to be shot. In the other, pigeons are lured to a location with decoys and then shot. I don't see how either "blood sport" are disconnected or seperate topics. The result is the same, piles of dead pigeons.
> 
> Perhaps there are those who feel one is better then the other, or that one is more "sporting". As a pigeon lover, I don't think either is "sporting", and as a member of this pigeon advocacy group, it would be rather strange if I condoned such activity. If readers are not opposed to pigeons being killed by both A) and B) above, then you are really on the wrong blog site.


This pretty much covers it.....if anyone thinks they can argue with these statements......they shouldn't be here 
I have not been able to find any Federal Laws protecting ANY pigeons. What I have found is State Laws protecting 'banded homing pigeons'. But not all states have a law. The way its worded in Maine is "it is illegal to interfere, capture, injure or kill a banded homing pigeon".
With what little free time I have, I've been trying to check each State, but it's not simple. I could not find any laws relating to pigeons for Idaho.


----------



## rpalmer

ace in the hole said:


> I know more about it than you will ever know so I would say you are barking up the wrong tree here. I have not only hunted ground hog I have ate ground hog. Traped and ate the racoons and muskrat I traped. I was brought up country, hunting and fishing. I think it's you that needs to read more and talk less about things you don't understand.


You would have to know me and my background to say any of that and you don't. If you only shoot groundhogs for food and eat every one you shoot than being the country boy that you claim to be makes you in a minority when compared to the rest of the U.S.

Read more and talk less? Life is a verb and I live mine. I don't read about someone else and claim to be knowledgeable. I will be 55 this year and compared to many anywhere I have already lived 3 life times. Go suck on a possum.


----------



## ace in the hole

rpalmer said:


> You would have to know me and my background to say any of that and you don't. If you only shoot groundhogs for food and eat every one you shoot than being the country boy that you claim to be makes you in a minority when compared to the rest of the U.S.
> 
> Read more and talk less? Life is a verb and I live mine. I don't read about someone else and claim to be knowledgeable. I will be 55 this year and compared to many anywhere I have already lived 3 life times. Go suck on a possum.


I don't care how old you are or how great you think you are. This thread is not about that, nor is this forum. I just stated I do not see killing pigeons for fun a sport. If you do not agree with that statement than as just mentioned you may be posting on the wrong forum. This foum is for people who love their pigeons. 

This forum as well as this thread were also not set up for your personal attacks. As far as I know I have never done anything to you. If I have please PM me so I can understand were your anger twards me is comming from. 

My birds are a very big part of my life and that is why I am on this forum. I do not log on here to but heads with people like you. If you can't log onto Pigeon Talk with respect for the others on this forum than please spare us all and move on to another forum that will fit you better.

Thanks, Mark / ACE


----------



## rpalmer

ace in the hole said:


> I don't care how old you are or how great you think you are. This thread is not about that, nor is this forum. I just stated I do not see killing pigeons for fun a sport. If you do not agree with that statement than as just mentioned you may be posting on the wrong forum. This foum is for people who love their pigeons.
> 
> This forum as well as this thread were also not set up for your personal attacks. As far as I know I have never done anything to you. If I have please PM me so I can understand were your anger twards me is comming from.
> 
> My birds are a very big part of my life and that is why I am on this forum. I do not log on here to but heads with people like you. If you can't log onto Pigeon Talk with respect for the others on this forum than please spare us all and move on to another forum that will fit you better.
> 
> Thanks, Mark / ACE


I quite simply addressed your responce, to which you have ducked. For you to say that I'm am off topic and somehow wrong with my post for addressing your issue ... what ever let's you sleep at night. But don't even think that I am wrong for addressing you issues. Take care and love those birds. I know I love mine.
If you want to PM me feel free.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

rpalmer said:


> ........*being the country boy that you claim to be makes you in a minority when compared to the rest of the U.S.*
> Read more and talk less? Life is a verb and I live mine.* I don't read about someone else and claim to be knowledgeable*. I will be 55 this year and compared to many anywhere I have already lived 3 life times. Go suck on a possum.



So you say......for all we know, you only have a year's worth of experience, but 55 times. Reminds me of a saying I once heard that just because a person has gotten older, doesn't make them smart. I'm thinking that saying just might apply here. Don't know why you are attempting to demean a person just because he is not a city dweller like you, and likes his pigeons. But, if you are a city dweller, what would you know about ground hogs ? Maybe you should stick to commenting on areas you have a proven expertise ? Because in this case it is apparent you haven't even read about the subject matter, let alone demonstrated any knowledge of the subject.


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## mill pigeon

Well I Read This And Theres Good Points On Each Side.i Don't Like The Idea Of One Of My Birds Being Shot Any More Then You But I Does Happen.i Can Also See Where Control Of A Pigeon Population Is Needed In Some Cases.i Live Across The Street From Rice Mills Where There Are Hundreds Of Wild Pigeons And They Had To Start Trapping Them Because They Were Causing All Kinds Of Problems From Getting In The Grain Bins To Landing On The Transformers And Blowing Out The Electricity.i Know People That Work At The Mill And In The Last 3 Years They've Only Trapped 2 Banded Pigeons And They Were From 60 Miles Away From Where They're Supposed To Be.when I Turn My Pigeons Out They Never Go Near The Wild Ones And The Loft Is Less Then 100 Yards Away.in Other Words I Can Understand Why Farmers Want Them Out Of They're Barns And Crops And Its Not Like They're Waiting For The Birds To Be Released For A Race And Shooting Them When They Come Over.pigeons Are Just Like Doves,ducks And Geese If You Don't Keep Them In Check They'll Over Populate


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## Charis

mill pigeon...the birds trapped in NYC, are trapped for the explicit purpose of taking them to Pennsylvania for the pigeon shoots. *It has not a thing to do with pigeon control.*


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## mill pigeon

Charis said:


> mill pigeon...the birds trapped in NYC, are trapped for the explicit purpose of taking them to Pennsylvania for the pigeon shoots. *It has not a thing to do with pigeon control.*


I NEVER SAID IT WAS AND I DON'T APROVE OF THE SHOOTS.I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FARMERS AND MILLS THAT REALLY NEED HELP WITH THE PROBLEM.AND AS FOR AS PUTTING DECOYS IN A FIELD AND GETTING PIGEONS TO DECOY TRY GETTING YOUR BIRDS TO LAND IN A FIELD AND IT WON'T HAPPEN THEY'RE GOING HOME NOT THE FIELD.THEY'RE HUNTING FIELDS WITH PIGEONS ALREADY IN IT.


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## Charis

Oh...I see, mill pigeon...you were bringing up the topic of overpopulation. I get it now. I thought you meant, that's why the pigeons are trapped in NYC....overpopulation.
Of course rice fields are going to attract all kinds of critters...geese, ducks, rats, birds other than pigeons.


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## foley678

if you are a good sportsman you should always know what you are shooting. and if cant tell a dove from a pigeon in flight you should not be hunting . i am a hunter and a trapper and a pigeon flyer better not shoot one of my birds . people are stupid.


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## PigeonVilla

foley678 said:


> if you are a good sportsman you should always know what you are shooting. and if cant tell a dove from a pigeon in flight you should not be hunting . i am a hunter and a trapper and a pigeon flyer better not shoot one of my birds . people are stupid.


Humans are a cruel species no matter how you roll the dice .


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## Heedictator

guys if you have youtube accounts flag this horrible video~~~this killers are not humans they'll go straight to hell!!! i want them to swallow all their kills one by one until the earth is clean from murder they're not humans anyway!! i wish they bath a load of pigeon poop on the streets very soon


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## Heedictator

it just hurts my feelings that everyday...i try as much as i can do to feed my pigeons, care for them, check them, have fun with them and i spend a lot just to see they do well and eat they want and live comfortably and free and i'd do anything to protect them from any predators or killers even humans .. and see they just do this to pigeons/animals..... this is so disappointing and breaks my heart and i'm really mad-_-


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## Heedictator

"if i would be the president of that country i'll consider a law that punishes animal abusers including inhumane killings of animals like this(seeing that they're proud and "no limit") by letting them eat all their kills uncooked in 1 day or let them run for their lives on that spot and begin shooting their feet and legs together so that they'll feel like a pigeon or else jail for 20years"


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## MaryOfExeter

I only have local channels but I was told last night that these guys where on the sportsman channel, killing pigeons. The guide apparently had a necklace on that would put my band collection to shame. And after a while they were flaunting the banded birds they shot. The nerve of these people!!!


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## Charis

For those of you so opposed to the cruelty that has been discussed in this thread, I have just received an alert that there will be another pigeon shoot in Pennsylvania this coming weekend. There can never be too many to take a stand and tell the shooters, and those defending the actions of the shooters, that you think their actions are cruel and wrong.
Please don't become caught up in the fact that my alert is from SHARK or that some of you may think that PETA wants to do away with the sport of racing pigeons because this isn't about any of that. This is about cruelty. 
If you think there is a way to justify shooting feral pigeons...please...just sit on your hands. Rather than make sarcastic remarks...just sit on your hands and keep those thoughts to yourself.

http://www.pashame.com/callitcruelty.html

Massive Three-Day Pigeon Shoot To Be Held August 5-7, 2011, in Berks County, PA

Friday, August 5th, to be Day of Action Against Berks County District Attorney John Adams


SHowing Animals Respect and Kindness (SHARK) is planning to video-document a massive three-day long pigeon shoot at the Wing Pointe canned hunting resort in Berks County this Friday through Sunday. SHARK, at previous shoots, has documented horrific cruelty at Wing Pointe, including a large pile of dead birds with still living pigeons in it. SHARK has also rescued more than two-dozen pigeons who were shot, wounded and left to die slow and painful deaths.


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## West

Heedictator said:


> guys if you have youtube accounts flag this horrible video~~~this killers are not humans they'll go straight to hell!!! i want them to swallow all their kills one by one until the earth is clean from murder they're not humans anyway!! i wish they bath a load of pigeon poop on the streets very soon


Talk about overreacting. I guess it's a good thing there's the internet for people like you to vent.


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## Heedictator

West said:


> Talk about overreacting. I guess it's a good thing there's the internet for people like you to vent.


and people like you too


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