# Help - cat brought in baby pigeon.....suddenly gone down hill!



## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Our kitten brought ina baby pigeon and we didnt think it would survive the night. It has now been 48 hours, he is under a 250w infa red lamp, and being fed exact, but hes now suddenly stopped cheeping and is sitting here with his beak opened and his throat making very fast rapid movements....im really worried i may have killed this poor thing!

does anyone know why he could be doing this, and what i can do to help him

any help very gratefully received

EDIT - just moved the lamp away as could it be too hot?!?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He's too hot--get him out from under the light!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, you have to moderate the amout of heat that they get. The younger they are, the more careful you have to be as they're not able to move around out of the heat as well to find their own comfort zone.

Can you take and post a picture of the bird?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you can't take a picture, then you can go here and look through the pictures at different ages until you find a good comparison:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

Once we know how old he is, we'll be able to give more specific advice.

Pidgey


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Thank you, ill just upload one now


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

apache_dj said:


> Our kitten brought ina baby pigeon and we didnt think it would survive the night. It has now been 48 hours, *he is under a 250w infa red lamp, and being fed exact, but hes now suddenly stopped cheeping and is sitting here with his beak opened and his throat making very fast rapid movements.*...im really worried i may have killed this poor thing!
> 
> does anyone know why he could be doing this, and what i can do to help him
> 
> ...


It sounds like he may have become too warm. They need an area where they can remove themselves from the heat, whether the heat is over or under them.

How are you feeding the Exact? e.g., tube, human nipple method, etc.
Are you allowing the crop to empty in between feedings?

How is he doing now that you've removed him from the heat.

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cats have a bacteria in their mouth that can be fatal to birds and small animals. If they have broken the skin of their prey, with their teeth, most often the bird/animal becomes infected. The only thing that can make a difference is an antibiotic started as soon as possible... meaning within hours after. 
It's also possible the bird is too hot. You said baby...does it have feathers? Put your hand on top the baby and leave it for 5 minutes or so. If it feels too hot to your hand, it's too hot for the baby.
You said you are feeding the baby formula. Is the crop emptying completely before you feed again. It's really important NOT to add more food to a crop with food already in it.
Are you feeding enough food?
All these things are potential be issues for the baby.
I guess more information is needed. I can tell you are worried and I understand how that feels. I hope we can guide you to help the baby.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Where is your general location? 
Perhaps there is a rehabber nearby who can assist you.

Cindy


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Here are the pictures.... he is a little munched as the cat did have a good go, but hes been to the vet and is on antibiotics to stop infection - im struggling badly with feeding - im trying to get him to eat it off the spoon but he eats very little, won't open his mouth and end up with all the formula down his front. My biggest worry is that im going to end up getting food down his airways


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

NOTE: hes now stopped panting that i have removed the heat and restarted cheeping so that was obviously the cause! - by looking at the pictures can anyone tell what age it is so i now how often to feed/how much....currently im offering him every 30mins-hour some food on a bent teaspoon so its like a funnell shaped but i cant tell how much hes eating as so much end up ion him


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Hi Apache

He looks to be around 2 weeks old to me. 
There are a few different ways to feed a baby this age. 
Here are some links for you.
What are you feeding by the way? 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

This is a video of me feeding two babies. Not the quickest way to get it done, but it DOES get them fed. You don't have to worry about the formula getting in their nose or down the wrong pipe. Just put in it their mouth and let them swallow. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJe6y8EYQRg


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Thank you guys so much for all your advice so far!

Love birds - yestoday as a temp measure he was on the "dust" with water so it was like a gravy from our layers pellets - but today i managed to go buy some kaytee exact as this is what the internet seemed to recommend!

so if hes 2 weeks how often/much should he be fed?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thank you so much for rescuing this pigeon and particularly getting it to a vet for antibiotics. I'm going to put up some links that may help you in feeding this little one who looks to me to be about two weeks old. 

http://kaytee.com/companion_animals/birds/hand_feeding/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8404110635196534861&hl=en

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bin7rhSLQss&mode=related&search=

One of our members, Lovebirds (Renee) has a video that is really good showing how she feeds babies but I can't find it in my bookmarks and hope she will post the link to it.


The third link to Urban Wildlife Society is not working for some reason but it is one of my favorite baby feeding links so I'll try to see what is going on with that.

The main thing is, keep baby warm, get the food past the airway, and don't feed formula too thick or too much. Best of luck.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

apache_dj said:


> Thank you guys so much for all your advice so far!
> 
> Love birds - yestoday as a temp measure he was on the "dust" with water so it was like a gravy from our layers pellets - but today i managed to go buy some kaytee exact as this is what the internet seemed to recommend!
> 
> so if hes 2 weeks how often/much should he be fed?


Man, I hate it when people ask me that!! LOL 
I never measure when I'm feeding babies. I just mix some Kaytee up and feed them till their full. When the crop gets full and sort of mushy.........you can stop. Don't want it tight or bulging. Not quite enough is WAY better than too much. Then feed them again when the crop empties. I probably feed about every 4 hours or so. Do you know where the crop is? It's just below their beak on the chest. I'll get some pictures to show you, although it's not quite as easy to see the crop once they've feathered like your little guy is. He's probably very close to being able to have some seeds fed to him.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here are links to different feeding method threads:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/various-methods-to-feed-young-squabs-9682.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pictures-amp-videos-of-tube-feeding-16235.html

He's actually getting of an age that he'll regulate his own temperature a little better. If he's inside and it's above 70, then you might just cover him with a feather duster or a cloth--he might not even stay under it.

Do you have a small kitchen scale that you can weigh him with?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

LOL Renee, we were posting at the same time. I love that video and I'll properly bookmark right now!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's some babies about your babies age. See how their little chest is round?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> LOL Renee, we were posting at the same time. I love that video and I'll properly bookmark right now!


LOL......I love it too, but I just love watching Junebug take off across the towel like she's going somewhere in a hurry.............


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

im just going to weigh him now to see how big he is - looking at the 14 do birds they look alot alot older than my pidge...... although hard to tell as the cat may have removed a lot of his feathers but he has a very fuzzy yellow head and his featherss arent really feathers just yellow straew likw strands but his wing are starting to grey and the tips. Also his beak felt very soft almost rubbery yestoday but has hardened up a little today....i dont know if that helps with his ageing

EDIT: kitchen scales are bust so sadly cant get a weight


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, they do grow at different paces sometimes, based on how well they are fed, etc............maybe your little one is around 10, 12 days old, but he's CLOSE to two weeks anyway. No difference in the way they are fed though, for now. Just get him full enough but not too full. Like Pidgey said, if your house is warm enough then he doesn't really need a heat source. Something to cuddle with is good. I always give mine a rolled up sock.


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Thank you guys so much! lovebirds that video was really REALLY helpful! ive removed the heat source so he now just has a little nest to snuggle in then i have left an area of just newspaper for if he gets to hot.

Im afraid i am very VERY new to the whole pigeon/baby thing and dont understand their body language. When he sees me or a t feeding time he starts o lift hiss wings up and down is this stress or excitement or just plain normal feeding behaviour?

sorry for all the questions


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

apache_dj said:


> Im afraid i am very VERY new to the whole pigeon/baby thing and dont understand their body language. When he sees me or a t feeding time he starts o lift hiss wings up and down is this stress or excitement or just plain normal feeding behaviour?
> 
> sorry for all the questions


Questions are good!! That's why we're here. They throw that one little wing around when the parents feed them too. It's their way of begging for food AND attention...........it's a good thing............he likes you.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Hey, just wanted to stress the fact that when you feed this baby, make sure his crop is empty. It will feel and look flat. Putting new food on top of old food can cause some serious problems that, trust me, you don't want to have to deal with. 
Even if he begs you for food and he will. They try REALLY hard to convince you that they are starving ALL THE TIME. It's cute, but don't let em' fool ya.


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

yes if he had his way he would be being fed every 5 minuites the noise he makes! i have just borrowed my neighbours kitchen scales (no i didnt tell them what for!) and he ways 383grams is this about right for a 10-14do baby?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No. You'd better weigh 8 ounces of water and see what it shows on that scale.

Pidgey


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

i think i can safely conclude that those scales are completely usless! i just thought 383g....thats almost a bag of sugar!!!!
ill go try and rinse the other neighbours for some scales


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

apache_dj said:


> So if hes 2 weeks how often/much should he be fed?


Actually, I would say he looks to be significantly less than 2 weeks; 2 weekers show more feathers, less pinfeathers...I would say 10 days old at the absolute max....reference this website:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

He/She needs about 11-15 cc of Kaytee formula daily for the next week....I recommend 3 feedings/day of about 4-5 cc per feeding.

Check the crop...if it looks full and you haven't reached 11 cc's yet, of course...stop the feeding (full crop=pics above).

In about 5 days, when he is at about 2 wks bump that up to 20 cc/daily fed in 3 feedings.

At 3 wks, introduce some soft solid foods, per the links already given by others in this thread. At 4 wks, try some seed as well....

Keep the formula at that (20-22 cc) until 4 wks, when you can drop the number feedings to 2x day....if he/she is eating some solids, you can maintain 20-22 cc's until 5 wks old. 

ALSO...I would like to applaud your thorough and quick action: most people would have just given the baby some supportive care....food and heat...and NOT have considered taking it him a vet. As Charis said, a bird attacked by a cat, dog, or hawk which results in broken skin is a goner in 1-3 days if no antibiotics are given. This lil' guy would have been dead in 36 hours if you hadn't gotten it to a professional vet. So..._complementi_ !!!!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

apache_dj said:


> *yes if he had his way he would be being fed every 5 minuites*


Yep! Just like a kid (actually he is), always wanting to eat.  
But don't give in. 

I realize a few of us are really stressing the fact you *don't* want to *over feed* & you *do* want to allow the *crop to empty*.

It's just that continuous feeding, without allowing the crop to empty, is a disaster waiting to happen. And it will.  

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*I Think That's A Baby Mourning Dove ..*

Care is the same as for a baby pigeon, but if I'm right, a Mourning Dove is a protected species that needs to get to a permitted rehabber or facility.

Good on you for saving and helping this baby .. let's just make sure you don't have a problem later on.

More pictures, please .. the beak looks like a baby pigeon but the rest looks like a wild dove.

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes when I saw the pictures and then the posts based on pigeon age, I was thinking "Have they not made it clear this is not a baby pigeon?  "
I too, thought it was a mourning dove. Wild doves grow much faster, but like Terry said, are cared for the same.
They're native so they are protected, which I find stupid, because there is obviously enough in the wild for it not to hurt for someone to have a rescued one like this. They're even hunted, so I don't get how having a pet one would hurt


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Heya

I was looking at some mourning dove pictures and they dont really look like pidge, but i am no expert - so i have taken some more pictures for you guys to look at but i have no idea what i have done with the cable, so they will follow shortly! (also im in the UK and i dont think we have many MD)

Just to let you all know (i dont want to tempt fate but...) hes looking like a very happy bird - he growing up so fast! hes finished his antibiotic course and so far there is no sign of infection in any of his wounds.

I don't know if this will help confirm what he is but i noticed the very very tip of his beak has gone white and a tiny bit of a "hook" with a thin very dark band above it... then it goes into a slighlty lighter greyey colour....is this typical pigeon or a sign of another bird?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That isn't a mourning dove, we don't have them in the UK.

Can you stretch out his wing and see if there is a white stripe there? If so he is a wood pigeon. 

Here is a link to some photos that could help age him...also check out Paris's photo album, it shows what her woodie Hope looked like at 10 days.

If it is a wood pigeon and you want him to be released eventually then it would be better to take him to London Wildcare, they maladapt very easily if you hand raise them and he wouldn't know what to eat without learning that from other woodies. He would also have to develop a healthy fear of humans if he is released in the countryside, as they are both game birds and classified as pests, so they get shot.

Cynthia


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Cynthia the link didnt come up, could you possibly send it again?!

yes when i pull out his wing he has ssome white under there.... which isn't suprising as we have ALOT of woodpigeons in our woodland area!

As of having him released, are biggest worry was him readapting - and we had a thought of him maybe living with my friends pigeon (who isn't a wood pigeon just a "normal" jobby - you can see how technical i am!) would this work, or am i just being really selfish - can woodpigeons adapt to domestic life easily?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry about the missing link! Here it is 

http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/307673749CDqjnv

Does your friend's pigeon live in an outdoor aviary? Wood pigeons really like the outdoors, I have tame ones (that maladapted as squabs) in my aviary, they will always remain in the open part..Unfortunately this has to be covered (becaus of bird flu). I know that they would prefer it to be in an open aviary.

Wood pigeons and feral pigeons get along well. I passed three youngsters on to a sanctuary for rehabilitaion, and one of them immediately chose a white fantail as a mate . There is also a thread on this forum by amyable in which she describes how a rescued woodpigeon and a feral pigeon paired up at a sanctuary, and another member (solly) has a mated woodpigeon and fancy pigeon pair. 

But as I said they need to be in the open aviary and they also need room in which to stretch their wings.

Can we have another photo?

Cynthia


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Thank you Cynthia!

This other pigeon is currently living in a guinea pig hutch in a garage - hense the plan to pair them up, as my very generous father is going to build an aviary in our garden - so that way pidge would have a friend and the other bird would have a better quality of life

i cannot find the damn cable but just taken some on my dads camera which are too big to put on here so i uploaded them to webshots: http://good-times.webshots.com/album/564505610MkwEtd - he has food all round his face the mucky pup

Also after looking at him again properly - what i thought was white is actually a light grey colour, so starting to wonder again if hes not a wood pigeon!!! i tried to get a picture of his wings out but it is rather blurred!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

He is beautiful, and it is great news that you will have an aviary for him! You are right, it is difficult to tell what he is from the photos...he looks like a woodie, but could be a collared dove or even a stock dove. I don't think he is a feral pigeon.

Can you spread the feathers of one wing right out? That is when the stripe is visible.

How much of your hand does he take up when you hold him?

Are his eyes very, very black?

BTW, although a lot of people use straw for bedding it is a bit risky , it becomes damp with poops and can produce toxic spores that can be fatal to birds.

This is a photo of a stock dove squab http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3D%2522stock%2520dove%2522%2520%252B%2520%2520squab%26y%3DSearch%26rd%3Dr1%26fr2%3Dtab-web%26fr%3Dslv1-mdp&w=500&h=375&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F39%2F122519871_56a4459daa.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fsvkett%2F122519871%2F&size=146.9kB&name=dove&p=%22stock+dove%22+%2B++squab&type=JPG&oid=836a92cfe9b5e6c2&fusr=zanypurr&tit=dove&hurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fsvkett%2F&tt=1&no=1&sigr=11e5468i3&sigi=11duki72q&sigb=145lmlq58&sigh=114ssoddr They have broken black bars on their wings when they become adults and their beaks are like wood pigeons (even though the one in the photo has a black spotted beak! But the most noticeable thing is those black eyes.

Cynthia


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

I spread out his wing, and there is no white bar just areas of light grey - which when he was flapping his wings looked white!

He has very very black eyes and when i hold him he fits perfectly into the palm of one hand.

What is the best bedding to use? at the moment the whole cage has a newspaper on and one half of it is a hay nest, and 3 times a day i take 1 sheet of newspaper out so he doesnt tread in the poo - but the poop in the hay is a mission to get out! I thought about shavings/woodchips but i was worried the dust would go in his lungs and in his eyes.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I use white paper towelling as bedding (the sort that they put on physical therapists couches, or kitchen roll), that way I can clean the cage very quickly and also keep an eye on the poops.

We tried sawdust but once damp with poops it smelt very strongly of amonnia and it used to get everywhere.

If this is a stock dove (time will tell!) , then I have to admit to knowing very little about them. They are very shy. When I feed the wood pigeons in the park nearby a few stock doves come down to eat mixed con, but they fly away if I get anywhere near them. They are woodland birds, but also have spread to gardens. I don't know how they would adapt to captivity.

If it turns out to be a stock dove then this sanctuary may be able to avise you...if you scroll down you will see a photo of two that fell from the nest (they were probably a lot younger when they fell:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/samantha.bedford/pigeons.htm

Cynthia


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## Georgina (Jun 24, 2008)

Hi! 

Sorry to butt in, I googled "baby collared dove" and this is what I found...
http://www.thewildlifelodge.co.uk/photos/Baby Collared Dove 010308.jpg
It looks pretty much exactly the same... I think it must be a collared dove!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

HI Georgina,

I have hand raised collared doves of about that age, this is a photo of my Coriander when she was 10 days old (last month). To my eyes Sarah's pigeon looks bigger, a darker grey and has a darker beak...collared doves are "sandier". But that is just my opinion, in a few days there will be no doubt about what it is.

Just wanted to add that I raised Coriander by tube feeding becausethe RSPCA advised me years ago that the effect of tube feeding meant they weaned quicker and didn't malimprint, but she still isn't completely weaned and as for malimprinting, whenever I go into the doviary she is there squeaking, preening my nose and gaping for her tube! I am having to tube feed an adult wood pigeon and when I do Coriander jumps on its back and tries to intercept the tube. Usually they start to feed themselves by 17 days. The best laid plans...


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## apache_dj (Jul 22, 2008)

Thank you guys for all your help! i guess the mystery will be over in a few days! i have googled every bird mentioned above and for each one im like "oh thats what pidge is" then i go onto the next and think "wait no he's this!"

I must say thought the above picture does again look a lot like him - in the flesh pidge is actually a browny tinged colour with tiny light brown tip to hisfeathers, but when he stretches out his wing they are dark and light grey!

ill post in a few days some more pictures and hopefully we will be able to conclude what the little horror is!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I use white paper towelling as bedding (the sort that they put on physical therapists couches, or kitchen roll), that way I can clean the cage very quickly and also keep an eye on the poops.
> 
> We tried sawdust but once damp with poops it smelt very strongly of amonnia and it used to get everywhere.
> 
> ...


LOL, I don't mean to interrupt this thread but, Cynthia, the link you just gave shows several doves/pigeons and the one with the broken leg really gets my curiosity up. What type of harness do they have that little guy in? Never saw anything like it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I must say thought the above picture does again look a lot like him - in the flesh pidge is actually a browny tinged colour with tiny light brown tip to hisfeathers, but when he stretches out his wing they are dark and light grey!


That is the problem when you have to rely on photographs... having discounted the wood pigeon it is statistically more likely to be a collared dove than a stock dove. The collared dove's flight feathers, which will show up when he stretches out his wing, are a darker brown than the rest of the wing. The tail will grow very quickly and the collared dove's tail is very distinctive.

Collared doves hate to be in small cages, but in a large aviary they are happy and settled. So let's hope that Georgina is right.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> LOL, I don't mean to interrupt this thread but, Cynthia, the link you just gave shows several doves/pigeons and the one with the broken leg really gets my curiosity up. What type of harness do they have that little guy in? Never saw anything like it.


That is the injury harness from Boddy & Ridewood. They also produce the leg splint. I have never been able to use either of them. The pigeon that I put the injury harness on just squirmed and got his head through the side.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/category/use.dept.162/

Cynthia


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## Georgina (Jun 24, 2008)

Well, whatever it is, it's certainly CUTE!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, thank you. That is quite interesting.


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