# Found Fledgling in SF - Need Advice :)



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi,

I found a fledgling this evening at 16th Street and Dolores in San Francisco. He is a little bit older than the birds in this picture: http://www.geocities.com/macomb_audubon/images/Young_Pigeons.JPG, with fewer little yellow feathers. I contacted Eileen Sutterfield of Fresno Wildlife Rehabilitation; she was very helpful. Under her direction, I purchased Kaytee's Exact Baby Bird Formula, mixed as instructed, and fed 12ccs with a syringe to the very back of the bird's mouth.

Feeding was, well, a little difficult. He definitely did not want to open his mouth. I used my thumbnail to pry it open, then slowly widened the opening until I could fit the syringe in. I pushed the syringe in until it looked like it was at the back of his throat, then slowly pushed in 2ccs of formula, trying to time my pushes with the "swallows" of his throat. He did not bob his head as I've seen young birds do. I then repeated this process six times to get to 12ccs fed. Any advice on making this easier? He was tossing and twisting his head the whole time; I was worried about hurting him as I tried to restrain him.

I know that I should monitor his crop to see if he gets enough to eat and when to feed him again. Where exactly is his crop? He has some bare parts, some down, and some adult feathers on his front, so... well, it's hard for me to tell. 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Danielle


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Well, actually he might be younger than the birds in the pictures. I don't know. He has fewer yellow feathers and fewer feathers around his head and neck. What do you think? I'll try to get a picture.

He also has lots of little white flecks (like dandruff) around his head and neck. What might that be?

Danielle


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Danielle, 



Are you sure this youngster needed to be rescued?


Was he wandering out in traffic or other perils..?


Anyway, he is not going to be interested in anyone doing things to him...even though he could be eating Seeds on his own in a few hours IF walked through the steps in his terms of it.

Definitely too old for formula in the usual sense, unless unable to eat and an emergency measure.



But, for now, evaluate where you found him...and or see if you can determine where his Nest, Parents and Sibling are...and all of that is a no-go, or seems too problematic, then...if you like I would explain to you the steps of walking him through so he will be eating on his own the same day.

But, do not do anything else which will alienate him or make for more distrust...or the steps of walking him through will not work...just let him be comfortable and quiet for tonight and don;t pester him...

Have him on a "white" Towell, in a box even if you do not have a cage... so in the morning you can see the number and color and quality of the poops...

If he is ill, these should show some sign...

The 'flecks' are from preening his new growing Feather shafts...

Till later...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*the calvary is on the way*

Hi Danielle,
Expert advice is coming soon (not from me 'cause I know nothing about this). Thanks for helping this little one. and welcome to this great forum.


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

He looks like Day 20 or 21 in these pictures: http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm, though he is a normal grey city pigeon, not a fancy type.

I watched the YouTube video on tube feeding given under the Resources tab - that helped a little - but any suggestions would still be appreciated.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi! I'm not a rehabber, but maybe can offer some advice until more qualified members come along.

Usually the first thing recommended before feeding or water, is heat. Either a heating pad sent on low w/a towel over it or a hot water bottle with a towel over it and room for the little one to move off if he chooses.

You have already tried feeding him. Perhaps an easier way would be to take a baby bottle nipple, cut off the edge (flange), put your formula in there and then guide the baby's beak into the nipple. They are usually fed by their parents when they put their beaks in the parents mouth (beak). You could "pretend" the nipple is the parent's mouth.

Since it's night now, just keep him warm and in a secure place, with a covering over the cage, if he's in one.

Tomorrow, there will be expert help to advise...

Don't know what the white specks are...dry skin? feather mites? Do you see them moving? If so, the forum will also advise what to do about them.

Hang in there...help will be along...

Welcome to the forum and thank you for helping this little one!  

Shi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Danielle,

Thank you so much for rescuing this little one. The white flecks are just feather dander and nothing to worry about.

It looks like you have got feeding down pretty well .. the crop is the "pouch" area at the base of the neck/top of chest. As you feed, it will fill up and you want it to be sort of plump and marshmallowy to feel. Then you wait until the crop "deflates" and feed again to the plump point.

If you need immediate assistance or info, please feel free to call me at 949-584-6696.

Terry


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

dlgilbert4,

Thanks so much for assisting this little one, you are actually in good shape, this youngsters is very close to being able to eat on it's own if it is in the 20 to 21 day range, if he takes the Kaytee food that is good and it will help with keeping up the weight but you should also offer some regular pigeon feed or dove food to this little one as well as a bowl of water, make sure that the water dishes is heavy enough that s/he will not tip it over and is a few inches deep, you may have to dip it's little beak to help teach it but try when dipping to not dip so the nostrils go into the water, you can also offer some grit when you notice that it is actually eating the food which will be at any moment. At 28 to 35 days they are usually self sufficient and flying so it will not be long. 

Can you please give us a little more information on how you came about finding this youngster, what kind of area was s/he in, was there a nest nearby that you could see, if it is possible to get this youngster back to a nest that it came from would be helpful for us to know, did the youngster seem to be injured in any way to you?

I am sure other's will be on here as well but the additional information will be helpful to all of us. 

Thanks again so much for being so kind to help this little one out, it is very kind of you.

Ellen


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

He was sitting on a busy sidewalk next to a four-lane street here in a dense area of San Francisco. The nearest "green space" is four blocks away. I looked for a nest in the eaves of the buildings nearby, but could see none. Here the buildings are four stories tall and all are next to each other with no space in-between.

In almost any other area, I would have left him to his parents. He appears healthy and alert, though the feathers on the apex(?) of his wing have either worn off or not grown in yet. While I was watching him, trying to decide whether to take him in, he walked out into the street. That pretty much decided it.

I felt he was at too much risk from cars and people on the sidewalk, some of whom I could easily see tormenting and injuring a vulnerable animal, to let him stay out there. (Believe me, I would rather trust his care to his parents!  ). 

He has shown no particular desire to fly yet. He has stretched and flapped his wings a few times, but without any vertical gain. His excrement has appeared normal to me: white splashes with a brownish pellet. What in particular should I be mindful of?

Thank you.
Danielle


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Feeding went much better this morning. I have some never-used airline tubing for my fish tank, so I cut a 3" piece of it, fitted it over the end of the syringe, then cut a beveled tip to use for feeding. That was much better for both me and Cole (that's his name now), as the tubing is narrower and much softer than the syringe for going in the mouth and down the throat. The dish towel technique also helped. I still have not really figured out the location of the crop, because Cole tends to huddle and his throat is growing new feathers, but hopefully I'll discover it soon.

I have attached pictures of Cole and his enclosure. I'm keeping him in a large Rubbermaid-type container; it's 40" long, 24" wide, and 20" deep. I covered the half above the heating pad with chicken wire and I place a thin towel over the other half. In the picture you can see him just sticking out from under one of the cardboard "houses" I made for him. Is this a suitable enclosure? What can I do to make him more comfortable?

Behavior: what should I expect? Other than when I take him out for feeding, he is huddled and sleeping (like he is in the picture). He didn't move from 11pm last night until I took him out this morning for breakfast. Is he just tired from his ordeal yesterday? He was out and exposed on the sidewalk for at least an hour. When I take him out for feeding, he does stand up and flap his wings. He also makes a lot of little peeps, especially when I'm wrangling his head for feeding.

Thank you!
Danielle


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

From looking at these pictures and what you are describing this is a fledging, s/he is very close to being weaned, you need to get some regular feed for this little one and water, tube feeding this youngster you risk aspirating it and I don't believe it is needed at this age.

What do you plan on doing with this little one, are you going to be adopting it as a companion or do you plan on doing a soft release later?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Looks like Cole is, indeed, ready for "big bird" feeding. Phil and others advise putting down some seeds and then using your finger to tap near the seed to get youngsters to start pecking and eating...

I'm sure others will be along with suggestions. Phil, who posted earlier in your thread, is a whiz with pijie techniques and I'm sure will offer suggestions. 

Gee, why do I get the impression this is going to be a spoiled bird???  

HUGS and SCRITCHES to Cole!!


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

I have tried using my fingers to tap and "peck" at some seed, but he just sits and huddles and seems quite uninterested in what I am doing.

When I dip his beak in the water, he shakes and jerks his head. 

He doesn't move (at all) between feedings and hasn't walked around his enclosure or anything. Is he scared? Tired? Both?

Should I just be patient?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Yes you will need to be patient, and if you fed recently s/he may not be hungry. I have found with the little one's that if you take some of the feed in your hand and clasp your hand together loosely and then you take your thumb side with the open circle toward the bird they will start to eat from your hand and will search your hand for food once they get used to it, 

s/he is at a in-between stage of being fed and learning to eat, the water it will take as soon as it is thirsty just periodically try to dip it and it will drink when it is ready, a sure sign of thirst is the bird will kind of squint and what we call blinking. The droppings you described seem to be normal but please keep us advised closely of how s/he is acting, the pictures show a healthy little youngster with bright eyes so at this point I would say it is a healthy thriving little one that just needs to learn. What exactly are you trying to feed, is it a seed mix?

Ellen


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

It's a wild bird seed mix.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

The wild bird seed sometimes has the black sunflower seeds in it which my preference is to not feed the shelled sunflower but they will eat most everything else in the mix, if you are able to get some safflower seeds that is like a treat to pigeons, also popcorn that is uncooked and that is not the microwave kind, the best for them is a pigeon mix but I am not sure how easy it would be for you to get that in San Francisco I guess it depends on where you are there and how close a feed store is, many of the pet store will sell a dove mix which works well, you will only need to get a couple of pounds.

How I have taught youngsters to eat is by putting the seed with extra safflower on the top in a small like custard dish, even you don't have the extra safflower they will still eat it, I will try the hand method as explained before, I also keep the feed readily available in the feed cup for the youngster to explore it, the feed will flow out a little onto the towel and the youngsters curiosity will get the best of him or her and it will start to pick it up and play with it a little, you can also do the hand pecking thing, pretty soon you will see them playing around with the food and they will get some in their mouth and then after that they usually will start eating, they are a little awkward at first but they catch on pretty quick.

Ellen


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi Ellen,

Today after his second feeding, he sat in my lap awhile. He made lots of "cheep" and "eek" sounds and flapped his wings - I figured out that meant he was still hungry and we worked on trying to eat seeds. He pecked at some seeds on my finger a few times and ate three or four. Yay! Progress! I'll keep you updated. No luck yet with the water.

He's kinda messy from our first few feeding attempts - he has some formula on his neck. I have not seen him preen yet. Does he need a bath? How do I do that?

Danielle


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

dlgilbert4,

You are doing great!! No baths at this time, if you need to clean him up a little you can dampen a paper towle or a cloth and wipe gently in the same way as the feathers flow towards. Continue to try to get him eating on his own, he is old enough to supply himself with food and will drink as well in no time at all he will start drinking, continue as you are but try to get away from doing the feedings with the syringe you have done great, but they are so easily aspirated it is best not to unless you have to as a matter of life or death. Please continue on and keep us posted as you go. He will make a mess with the seeds but that is great it will teach him to eat as he picks at them.

Will watch for additional updates.

Ellen


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Here is a picture of Cole standing up and a picture of his feces. The yellow crumbs on his head and beak are from the formula.

He is quite wobbly when he stands and when he walks. Is that normal at this age? 

How old do you think he is?

Are his feces normal?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What a cute bird and about my favorite age in a pigeon.
His poops look normal for a bird that has been fed formula.
Have you fallen in love with him yet? Regardless, it's wonderful you have taken him on.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi dlgilbert4,

I notice that the picture you just posted shows feathers missing around the
lower mandible and there may possibly be some inflamation there. Did you by 
chance give a good inspection of the inside of the mouth to look for any cheesy
appearing growths? Also, have you done a hands on 'exam of both sides of the
throat to feel for abnormalties from one side to another?

Your baby is adorable, no doubt about it, even still, sometimes if a baby 
is ill they are 'bumped' if you will to go out on their own due to illness. I'd just
feel better if you took your time and gave Cole (Cole ST.?), a hands on exam
and let us know if you notice anything unusual.

Thanks,

fp


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi fp,

The next time I have him out I'll attempt to examine his mouth and neck. I don't know what normal looks or feels like, but I'll do my best. Would a better picture help you out? If so, from what angle?

Danielle


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

These babies are all about the same age as yours. See how they have feathers under their beak, rather than the it being bare? That's the concern.


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

What are some reasons that would cause that region to be bare? What else am I looking for?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dlgilbert4 said:


> What are some reasons that would cause that region to be bare? What else am I looking for?


We are looking for symptoms of Trichomoniasis, layperson's terms being Canker.

Usually if visible you will see yellow/whitish yellow 'cheesy' growths in the mouth area. From what you have there I'm suspecting a lump on the side where no
feathers and bare. The problem sometimes is that the active site for the organism is out of our 'sight' and so we feel to see if there is a lump on one side of the throat but not the other. There are other diagnostic techniques, but let's just start w/the basics. Visuals in the mouth and gently palpating the throat region. A normal throat should feel symetrical. I have meds and we can connect on that, so not to worry.

I am going to send you a PM, please follow the prompts when you are notified on screen.

fp


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

You also have the option of taking the squeaker to rehabbers in the area. Wildcare in San Rafael is a great place to take sick or orphaned birds (just not injured ones!). Wildcare also accepts pigeons, and you can find them on the link below.

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm

Wildcare 415-456-7283


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

I have seen this before in Feral pigeons, Bruce had 2 that he transported to Terry that looked almost just like this, we had suspected an inadequate diet but I am not sure that is what it is. I hope Terry comes on soon and takes a look she may have some idea.

Ellen


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

relofts said:


> I have seen this before in Feral pigeons, Bruce had 2 that he transported to Terry that looked almost just like this, we had suspected an inadequate diet but I am not sure that is what it is. I hope Terry comes on soon and takes a look she may have some idea.
> 
> Ellen


I'm here .. sometimes it's diet, sometimes it's parasites, sometimes it's being picked/pecked on by other birds, and sometimes it's canker or another internal "nasty" that causes the baldness. It definitely needs to be checked into. Some years ago, I lost a darling little squeaker that I had named Poquito because I failed to snap on the fact the s/he had bald spots .. it was canker that I couldn't see .. I was heartbroken ..

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I can bring a variety of things w/me in a trip to visit Danielle and Cole. I won't 
recommend w/out symptoms, I can bring general health items as well.

If folks believe that based on feedback the bird should see a doctor, we can arrange for this as well. I think while this is urgent in the sense of being proactive for the bird, it is not a full blown crisis. We'll check back w/the group as things proceed.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

dlgilbert4 said:


> I have tried using my fingers to tap and "peck" at some seed, but he just sits and huddles and seems quite uninterested in what I am doing.
> 
> When I dip his beak in the water, he shakes and jerks his head.
> 
> ...



Hi dlg4...



Their drinking Water needs to be warmed first so it is near body temperature.

Do not use 'hot' Tap Water, and do not use a microwave, but, rather, gently warm some 'cold' Tap Water in a Pan on the Stove...so it is just about but no more than feeling like 'no temperature' to the underside of your wrist.

If it is not close to their body temperature, they will not drink it.


Pre-feldgelings do not need to be kept 'in' anything, unless they are afraid of you or afraid of the situation or distrusting...their natural manners are to stay in or next to whatever they percieve as their defacto 'Nest'...and to some extent, this 'Nest' can be whatever one sets up for them, where one feeds them "there"...feeding them 'there' affirms for them that that place IS the 'Nest'...is where they will get fed...as well as their sense of the Nest being safe and sensible.


I just keep them on some dresser top or table top...having a smallish cardboard box on it's side, so one side, the front, is open...with a white towell 'floor' and maybe a cake-pan or tray or something shallow like that with some soft cloth in it, 'in' in the box-on-its-side,usually having also some sheer or light cloth draped over the open front with a gap at the bottom, for a sort of curtain he can go through to come out or to go in...so the youngster can sort of 'hide' in there if he likes, while having a exposed 'porch' area of towell to come out on to when he feels like it.


If he is not alienated or scared of you from being force fed and handled and so on, you could try this to get him drinking and pecking today -


Keep your hands below his eye level always...and keep you arms and hands still unless intentionally interacting. Make no un-neccary moves or talking.

Moisten your finger tips in warm water, in a cup, like a Tea Cup, and reaching to him from below his eye level, with your moist warm finger tips of one hand, gently massage the root area of his Beak between the pads of your fingertips...

And, while you do so, say "ooooOOOOooo!...ooooOOoooo!...in a low, slowish deepish voice that comes from the back of your thoat. Which is more or less what their parents say when calling to them to be fed.


If you do this even approximately 'right', he will respond with a combination of amazement, interest and uncertainty you really mean it...

Do it again, and, most likely he will "nuzzle"...

Nuzzleing is where they seek with their Beak, the parent's throat for being fed.

Usually this is accompanied by initially some tentative 'squeaking' or 'peeping' and shoulder pumping motions.


If he nuzzles, then, gently, with the renewed dipping of the fingertips into some body temperature Water in the close at hand Tea Cup...gently touching his Beak and keeping your finger tips of one hand on the root area and sides of his Beak...gently guide it into the Water which is in the Tea Cup...and he will drink.


Then, get a small Shot-Glass...and fill it with small whole 'Parakeet' or 'Finch' Seeds.


Just as above, gently guide his Beak into the Seeds, keeping your finger tips on the sides of his Beak...and he will 'gobble' the Seeds...

They can eat an aweful lot this way too, and fast...so, for the first few times, just let him eat say what one might guess to be a Tablespoon or so worth...then do it again in an hour or two...but check his Crop to fullness while beaing in mind that these or any Seeds swell up a good deal when they hydrate.


Doing this, he will very soon start pecking at the seeds also, once you have let him gobble a few times in this way, and where you are holding the Shot Glass of small whole Seeds in front of him pending the next 'gobble' with finget-tips on his Beak round...he will wish to tentatively start pecking at them with no fingertips.

Make sounds of whatever kind TO him then, when he does this, that convey admiration, approval and praise...


This, if you do it more or less right, will have him self-feeding in half-a-day or less.

If one does it 'right' for lots of practice, a new arrived Squeaker will be eating on his own in ten minutes, for having been led through this progression.

Then, staying with him for any feeding sessions, you can 'peck' also with your crook'd index finger tip...and let him eat sensible amounts as he may, but do not leave Seeds in with him...only have him eat while you are there and 'pecking' with him.


Same with Water....warm some Cold tap Water in a Pan, put some into a Tea Cup, so it is body temperature but not more...and offer it off and on through out the day...after a few times of your guiding his Beak to it, he will dink without needing that 'guidance' anymore...but, do not leave it with him.

Just offer tepid Water off anf on through out the day...and check his Crop to see if it is 'mushy', and if it not, offer Water.

Later, after a week of this, you can let him have a Seed Bowl ( with measured amounts of Seeds in case he gets carried away and es all of them ) and a Water Bowl, and he will not care anymore if the Water is coolish or room temperature...which Bowls should be at leat an inch deep, and have wide bottoms so they do not tip easily.


Thas the crash-sourse...


Let us know how it goes?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Wow - thank you all for being so supportive. I plan to examine him soon and will post pics between 10:30 and 11:00pm.


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Here is a link to all the pictures I have taken of Cole: http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~danielle/Cole/. The yellow stuff everywhere on his front and at the left corner of his beak is formula.

The zoomed-in pictures of his mouth are at the end. I did not see any yellow or cheesy-like substance in his mouth. The roof of his mouth does have eight symmetrical whitish areas - see the second-to-last picture.

I could not get a good feel for his neck re: possible lumps, as I have no idea as what it should feel like and many of the feathers have formula on them. The bare spots are on both sides of his neck.

Good news: he started honestly taking seeds tonight! So far I have been able to get him to eat off my hand, the towel, and a little out of a dish, but not off the floor. He seems to like the little corn pieces the best (or maybe they are just the easiest for him to grab). How much should I let him eat?

What do you think of his condition?

Danielle


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hello Phil from Las Vegas,

Wow! What a helpful post!  

I will definitely try as you described with the water tomorrow. Hopefully I will be able to make a good "oooOOOooo-oooOOOooo" sound. 

Cole has been doing the squeaking with shoulder pumps at each feeding today - it's very cute! 

Thank you for clearing up quantity/frequency of water and food.

What about grit? Does he need that now that he is eating seeds? I have some cleaned, washed sand that is leftover from my freshwater fish tank (freshwater = quartz sand with no coral particles or any other CaCO3). Can I use that?

Danielle


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Danielle, 


Glad it goes well...!

He is a little older than I was thinking.

They are quick learners...


Somehow I would not use the old Sand from an Aquarium, but, if you did wish to let him have some Grit, just get some Parakeet Grit or similar at any pet supply place...or, get some Sand from the Beach, boil it, pour off the water, rinse it well several times...and dry it, and use that.

He will find larger Grit once out in the World.


Too, unless you intend for him not to be free and wild/feral, it would be a good idea, soon as he is pecking Seeds decently on his own, to find a feral flock, feed THEM, and while they graze, let your little one be in their midst, pecking with them. Let him have at least five or six such sessions, even if they are only fifteen minutes each.

Stay close, crouch down close to him, and let him know you are watching him. He will likely look 'to' you to make sure you are watching him...and, when he does, offer praise and admirations.

He might be nervous the first time or two, but it will pass...

He needs to be around the wild grown up Pigeons and to be pecking with them, shoulder to shoulder...to learn and take in their modes of being, their awarenesses, and now is the best time, since once he is flying he can not exacly follow you in your 'flying' to graze with you among 'them' and get it that way...so, you can let him get it now, which is fine too of course...which is just-as-good.


Do this as often as you can, or at least every second or third day soon as he is pecking decently, and then, when he does seem like he is ready TO start flying, which will be in something like two weeks or so, you can cease....and then, say a week or week and a half after that, when you do 'release' him, release him TO that particular flock whom you have been letting him mingle with in your feeding of them...and he will have a ready-made flock TO be part of and to learn from after that. He will know what-to-do...


Otherwise, it will be hard on him if he does not have that supervised 'introduction' to wild/feral Pigeon Society and modes of attunement.

And of course once he is flying, it is too late for you to do it.


Meanwhile, he should soon be doing more and more Wing testings, short or even longer stationary flapping sessions...building and excersiceing flight muscles...and then 'Helicoptering' where the flapping is gotten strong and will elevate him a few inches...

He also needs to explore, climb, play, goof around, have room to flap his Wings...so if possible, set him up as I described above, while there is still time for him to decide to accept it...on a Table top or Dresser top...hide all 'post earings' or other things he might eat by error of judgement...and he will then at his own pace, when he is ready, explore 'from' his 'Nest'...and after that he will wish to roost in higher places.

These are Cliff Dwelling Birds by Nature...Babys or youngsters do not tend to 'fall' unless pushed by siblings or feed-time jostleings, or unless ill.

Hea;thy youngsters, in the care of people, will not stay put just as nicely as they do in Nature. Instinctively, he will appreciate being "up", at least albow hight to you...which is convenient then also for visiting him or feed-times.

If he is 'wobbley' he may be weak yet from his time of privation...and it will clear up in a few days.



Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...if you can get the "oooOOOooo!...ooooOOoooo!" sound happenning so he responds to it with enthusiasm and meaning, use it every time you are going to offer Seeds, or Water...

Never use it un less Seeds or Water are about to be offered...and by 'about to be offered', I mean that they will be offered in a second or two is all...no delays past that.

Actually, to revise my prior mention, it is best if the Seeds and Water only come from you offering them, no "bowls" unless you want this to be a 'pet'...and it is best when about TO offer them for you to do the "ooooOOOoo!"...which he will know or soon will understand, means food or water time.

THIS, is very much as their parents do...and for us, then, it can be very useful if you need to call him, and once he is "out of the Nest" it is best for you to 'call' him for Seeds or Water time offerings.

He comes to you then, instead of you going 'to' the Nest...

Once he is not in the Nest any longer, he must come to you by being called to eat or drink.

When he is amid the feral flock, grazing, and you want to go, you can call him and he will come.


All of this, in every way, every detail, if one can learn them, is all of an integrity of practice...there is nothing which does not belong, and as much as possible of what DOES belong, and that can be done, is "there".


Once we bring them home, we are their 'parents', their surrogate parents...

They are happy to accept this...and the more all of it can be for them, and be in their terms, and defer to them in their terms of how they are and what they need, and for their Natural History, the better off they are, and the better off they will be to meet their World confidently, and to be adequate to their present and their future, when released.

So, a week or ten days after he is flying indoors well, able to fly 'straight up' and so on, he is ready to be released.

If you keep him longer than that, it then starts hurting his learning curve for being Wild/Feral, or starts adapting him to be a housebird...instead.




Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Danielle, 


I dunno, far as the bare of Feathers jaw and so on...

Sometimes it is wise to take this as a possible sign of Canker in their system..
But too, I have seen such bare throats or neck areas or jaws often, and seen it clear up and for these Feathers to grow in fine, with no meds or special treatment.


Something I have done a few times, or started to do more often, is to gently rub in some 'Neosporin' on such bare areas, each day, for a week or so, and I believe this has helped, possibly if follicle Mites are at work...since it may well suffocate them, or at any rate, it has seemed to help anyway, whatever the reason.

If his throat is clear, and the poops and or their attending liquids show no sign of any 'chalky yellow'...and if he seems to continue to be bright and cheerful and active and to grow and gain weight and have a good appetite, it is not likely he has any Trichomona issues.



I used to live in the Sunset a long time ago, for a short time anyway...but I forgot the Streets.

It was on the South and West portion, a couple blocks from the 'Doggie Diner'...near to the Great Highway.

In those days, the only places open late were "Luvs" on Geary Street, or the "Doggie Diner"...


Eeeeeesh, both were hard on one's late night eyes, too...all that hard flouresent light and bad 'red' puffy vinyl and so on...

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Daniele,

I looked at the pictures, and there's definitely something going on there, though
this is one of those times when it really requires more investigation. You sure do get an A+ on getting this baby to O-P-E-N W-I-D-E!! I'll pm you w/my cell and we can talk about some of the options locally.

fp


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Cole and I have an appointment with a local avian vet later this morning. I will post to let you all know how it goes.

Phil, he took water this morning! Not too much, and with a lot of splashing, but he definitely did drink some. My previous attempts were with room-temperature water, so the increase in temperature likely did the trick!

The sand I used was never in a fish tank - no worries. I meant 'leftover' as 'excess'. I did sterilize with very hot water (~150 deg. F) beforehand. I will look for grit at the pet store today.

Danielle


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

We just got back from the vet: Dr. Melliar-Smith of All Pets Hospital in SF. She seemed very skilled and knowledgable and was very comfortable in handling him. She did a complete physical exam and found nothing abnormal other than the bare patches. She showed me his crop, showing me where we could see even the seeds he'd eaten recently under his skin.

His heart sounds good. She looked into his mouth and down through his throat into his crop with a lighted otoscope and saw nothing abnormal other than the white patches on the roof of his mouth. No evidence of mites or skin fungus. 

Cultures were taken from his mouth and throat, a fecal sample was taken, and she put a sample from his mouth on a slide to check under the microscope. I will let you know the outcomes of the bacterial and fungal tests when I receive them.

Her general opinion is that, other than the bare patches, he is healthy and happy. She said his size and behavior are normal for his age.

Cole is now resting comfortably in his "nest" on the heating pad.

Danielle


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi there,

Glad the Vet took some samples while Cole was at the office. Did you happen
to have her look at the roof of the mouth and what did she say about this
if she did see it?

fp


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

dlgilbert4 said:


> saw nothing abnormal other than the white patches on the roof of his mouth.
> 
> Danielle


A few weeks ago I gave a new member of our club a couple of birds. He called a couple of days later saying there were 3 white spots in the birds mouth. He isolated the bird and I freaked out!!  This guy is a long time pigeon fancier so he was sure it wasn't canker or anything, but didn't know what it was. I found the info below. The bird is now fine, white spots gone and he's flying around the loft. Maybe that's what this bird has??

*Salivary stones found in the beaks of pigeons


Occasionally, when examing pigeons small hard white spots are discovered in the area of the crevice in the roof of the mouth and particularly in the rear part.

By almost 1 % of pigeons these fine millet sized nodules are found singly and sometimes 10 or more. It was always assummed that they were small areas of trichomoniasis (canker) but by today's understanding that is not the case.

Cause:
It is commonly known that there are numerous small salivary glands in the mucus membrane of the pigeon's mouth which secrete saliva so that the feed is slightly moistened to allow it to be more easily swallowed. To date it is not known what causes these little white spots which are hard and are known as salivary stones. By examing tissues and the chemicals of these spots or stones it has been proven in Holland that they consists of a mixture of mucus and fine small grains of parts of the cells from the salivary glands. These in turn are rolled into small hard balls and block up the openings of the ducts of the salivary glands. At first they appear to be grey but later they become white in colour.

Treatment:
Experience have shown that no treatment has been successful. Surgical removal only leads to bleeding and damage to the mucus membrane. However, the health and performance of the pigeon is not affected*


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi Renee,

Can you send this person the picture of Cole's mouth and see if it looks similar to what he saw? Here is the address of the picture: userwww.sfsu.edu/~danielle/Cole/images/dscf2043a.jpg.

It seems more like patches instead of nodules, but it's hard to tell for sure. They're hardly noticable except in bright light (like the flash of the camera). The vet said _Candida_ infections are usually in the crop, not the mouth, and would have rubbed off upon swabbing. Cole's white regions were not affected by the culture swab.

I'm not particularly concerned - more curious at this point.  It will be interesting to see if anything comes of the cultures.

Danielle


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I thought about the salivary stones as a possibility, but the concurrent lack
of feathering is present alongside the other symptom. Of course the
lack of feathering could be more along the lines of Scaley Face and dealt with
just fine w/a couple of drops of Scatt.

Yeast does in fact occur in the crop, but I have seen it on the roof of the mouth as well. I'm glad that she did run some tests for you. Cappillarias, bacterial infections, pox....and others could be considered exept for the bird's demeanor which is over all one of an average youngster.

If nothing else, the tests will provide reassurance to Danielle, this is all good.

fp


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

dlgilbert4 said:


> Hi Renee,
> 
> Can you send this person the picture of Cole's mouth and see if it looks similar to what he saw? Here is the address of the picture: userwww.sfsu.edu/~danielle/Cole/images/dscf2043a.jpg.
> 
> ...


Danielle, I can't. This guy lives WAY out in the country and is one of the few people left on earth that doesn't have a computer nor how to work one if he did!! LOL
Sorry.


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Wow - well, good for him. I waste way too much of my time randomly web surfing.  

Afternoon feeding went well. He likes to splash the water instead of drink it, but I think he's getting the hang of it.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Danielle, 



ACV-Water, being various concentrations of Raw Apple Cider Vingegar ( "braggs" being the brand-of-choice, ) added to a Gallon of Water...

Can be very good for them in many ways, discouraging a variety of un-desireable Yeasts, Candida, Bacteria and other micro-organisms, while at the same time encouraging the desireable ones.

For all I know it may even aid in dissolving 'Salivary Stones' if that is what yours has, and from your description I do not think that is it...

Sounds like you found a really good Vet...!


Pending the outcome of the tests/cultures...or regardless, drinking water and formula Water made to be the ACV-Water, of say Three Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon, would likely be benificial...and in itself can clear up mild ambigiuous presentations.


I usually have them on it for a week or ten days...


They do not mind the taste.

Too, once he is pecking somewhat effectively, you can cut up, Scizzors work well...cut up some fresh Collard Greens, Kale, or Chard...cut it into little 
'diamond' shaped bits say 3/16ths inch or so across...and see if you can interest him in eating these.

Most youngstrs will eat them readily, especially if one peck along side of them and hamm it up, emphacising how 'good' the little flat 'green' bites are.


Also 'Goji Berrys' ( any Health Food Store, get these when you are there getting the Vinegar ) ...the Goji Berrys are loaded with excellent Vitamines and Anti-Oxidants...and if cut into thirds or fourths are easy enough for them to peck.

If he does not peck them, you can 'Seed Pop' cut in half ones...even pre-soaking them so they are well hydrated first.

Wild/Feral PIgeons enjoy to graze on various Greens and small Fruiting Bodys, so these are foods which are both Natural for them and very valuable nutritionally.


Possibly his parents had not enjoyed a wide or varied enough diet when feeding him...and his immune system and nutrition had been a little comprimised.


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, it can be a time-warp.....anyway, I have some links for you that you might find useful/helpful.

From these sites in their Trichomoniasis section:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm#Worm Infestation

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

Similar conditions:
In adult pigeons, white dots appearing towards the back of the throat are not trichomonas foci. These firm, white or yellowish-grey nodules are, in fact, salivary calculi (sialoliths), formed from the hardened secretions of the mucous glands. They are harmless and should not be removed due to risk of bleeding. 


And from this site on Candidiasis:

http://www.theaviary.com/s1295-62.shtml


Your baby's did seem not so much toward the back of the throat but on the roof of the mouth. Hopefully the lab work will be helpful.

The following pictures are of a baby that 'just happened' to get pushed off the ledge of the overpass and had a canker growth the size of a dime in her
crop. Other than that, she had no visible growths in her mouth. But the
loss/lack of feathering was pronounced, far more so than in these pictures after approximately 8 days of Flagyl. 

fp


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

I'll grab some ACV and some of the suggested greens at the store soon. I want to help Cole be as healthy and happy as possible!

When can he start taking baths? He tried to hop into the water dish while I was trying to teach him to drink - it seemed like he was trying to get in the water.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

FYI, my pigeons readily eat fresh minced broccoli tops. They also love fresh minced carrots. 
I would say, if he wants a bath, let him go for it.
Fun to watch. Pigeons do love their baths.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...yahhhhh, usually somewhere around this age, they can get really interested in taking their first Bath, even though in Nature they would have no access to baths yet...


Anything say like a Cake-pan or other not too deep pan, frying pan or other, makes a nice Bath for them...

Seems like all Pigeons, even those youngsters of this age, like 'cool' Baths and not warm ones.


So sure, set up a bath for him, splash your fingers in it to let him know he is invited, and let him enjoy himself..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Renee, 

It looks as though the print in red is a quote from somewhere but I didn't see a link or source cited. It's been such an issue recently, I wondered where
this might be from?

fp




Lovebirds said:


> A few weeks ago I gave a new member of our club a couple of birds. He called a couple of days later saying there were 3 white spots in the birds mouth. He isolated the bird and I freaked out!!  This guy is a long time pigeon fancier so he was sure it wasn't canker or anything, but didn't know what it was. I found the info below. The bird is now fine, white spots gone and he's flying around the loft. Maybe that's what this bird has??
> 
> *Salivary stones found in the beaks of pigeons
> 
> ...


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

http://www.chevita.com/index.html

sorry. I tried to post a link instead of the actual transcript, but the link just took you back to the home page......it wouldn't link directly to the page that this came from.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, all...


I have never seen these 'Salivary Stones'...have any of you?


I wonder if the ACV-water would help eliminate them, and or prevent them in the first place?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

When I took Squeaks in for a "health" checkup over a year ago, Dr. Burke, (my Avian Vet, who has pigeons of his own) found one white spot in the back of Squeaks' throat.

Of course, I panic, thinking Canker or worse! Nothing showed in tests. Dr. B. put him on a med that didn't seem to help. In fact, I almost aspirated him on his last dose - or so it seemed! 

Anyway, after some "coughing" and probably cussing me out a blue streak, he was fine.

The spot stayed...Squeaks didn't seem to care but continued about his business guarding his turf!

I checked about a week or so later (the spot had NEVER changed to enlarge or multiply) and it was gone...who knows...haven't seen any since...


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

dlgilbert4 said:


> I'll grab some ACV and some of the suggested greens at the store soon. I want to help Cole be as healthy and happy as possible!
> 
> *When can he start taking baths? He tried to hop into the water dish while I was trying to teach him to drink - it seemed like he was trying to get in the water*.


That's how I KNOW that Squeaks wants a bath! I have two small stainless steel drinking dishes for my cats and when Squeaks either spends more time than usual around them or when he actually steps in them, I know it's bath time!

I would THINK Squeaks should get or want a bath, but after throwing out a lot of water, I started to "watch" him. Now, I KNOW when he wants or needs a bath!  

He either goes to take a shower in the tub OR I full the kitty litter box and awaaay he goes!


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp, all...
> 
> 
> I have never seen these 'Salivary Stones'...have any of you?
> ...


I've never seen them either. Not really sure how common they are actually.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, to my knowledge, I have not seen them as whenever there has been abnormal growth inside of the mouth, it was clearly attributable to specific
illness and responded to treatment. Tell you what though, Speers or Ford would be the ones that I would want to look at it in the event that I had a question about it. They are the best $54 dollars I've ever spent.

Guess we'll have to see what the lab says and then extrapolate. 

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> I've never seen them either. Not really sure how common they are actually.


I looked a few different ways & couldn't find them in the Clinical Avian Medicine text by Harrison & Lightfoot. Thinking there must be another way they are listed, excluding Salivary Stones, Stones, or Salivary, I looked in the indexes for Manual of Avian Practice by Rupley, Pigeon Health and Disease by Tudor, and Avian Medicine by Tully and couldn't find a lising anywhere in these volumes. 

I googled next and found that Chevita.com, Doctor's Corner and Jedd's all
list them but that Jedd's alternate listing of "Sialoliths" retrieved information
from Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison. (Still no listing in the other
volumes looking it up this way.)

In Avian Medicinerinciples and Applications by Ritchie,
Harrison & Harrison, it says that
it is believed that Sialoliths are associated w/HerpesVirus,
here are a couple of quotes from this text:

"Sialoliths in Pigeons
Mucosal lesions that appear similar to those caused
by hypovitaminosis A have been described on the
palate of pigeons and are referred to as sialoliths (see
Color 13).223 *Sialoliths consisting of a proteinaceous
substrate mixed with cellular debris are clinically
recognized in approximately one percent of pigeons.*
The etiology of sialoliths remains unknown. However,
based on their histologic, histochemical, chemical and physical characteristics, they are not thought
to be caused by hypovitaminosis A.223 An association
with pigeon herpesvirus infection has been suggested
and seems plausible.110,206,223"

"Inclusion Body Hepatitis
in Pigeons (Infectious Esophagitis)

This herpesvirus has a worldwide distribution, and
various strains show morphologic, pathogenic and
serologic differences (plaque formation in CEF).
Small plaque variants are less pathogenic or apathogenic.
207 The large and small plaque-forming viruses
may be two different strains.206 This virus is serologically
related to the falcon and owl herpesviruses. The
host spectrum of this virus is uncertain, but pigeons
and budgerigars are known to be susceptible.417 The
susceptibility of falcons and owls varies with the
species.
Squabs 4 to 16 weeks of age are most susceptible, but
any age bird can be infected, particularly if immunosuppressed. Annual outbreaks have been described
in some flocks. Transmission can occur through contact
with contaminated feed or water, through direct
contact between mates and through parenteral feeding
of offspring."

According to this quote and Chevita.com, the incidence of Sialoliths in pigeons is 1%.

fp

The bold and italic formatting is mine and not the medical text's.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> I've never seen them either. Not really sure how common they are actually.


Hi Lovebirds, all...

'Salivary Stones'...


I would suspect them to arise from some dietary lack of some kind...or maybe even some kind of odd Bacteria effecting the chemistry of their Glands...

Water here is typically very 'hard' Water, and I have never seen these in looking down a great many Pigeon throats, so I do not think it is a exigency to be associated with High Mineral content Water...

Just museing...

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, to my knowledge, I have not seen them as whenever there has been abnormal growth inside of the mouth, it was clearly attributable to specific
> illness and responded to treatment. Tell you what though, Speers or Ford would be the ones that I would want to look at it in the event that I had a question about it. They are the best $54 dollars I've ever spent.
> 
> Guess we'll have to see what the lab says and then extrapolate.
> ...



Hi fp,


Who or what are 'Speers or Ford'..?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I looked a few different ways & couldn't find them in the Clinical Avian Medicine text by Harrison & Lightfoot. Thinking there must be another way they are listed, excluding Salivary Stones, Stones, or Salivary, I looked in the indexes for Manual of Avian Practice by Rupley, Pigeon Health and Disease by Tudor, and Avian Medicine by Tully and couldn't find a lising anywhere in these volumes.
> 
> I googled next and found that Chevita.com, Doctor's Corner and Jedd's all
> list them but that Jedd's alternate listing of "Sialoliths" retrieved information
> ...




Hi fp,


Hmmmm! 

Interesting...

Still might just be some sort of Viris or Bacteria anyway...even if not isolated or identified yet.


If something is causing plaque to occur, surely there is 'something' there effecting this to be happenning...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hello everyone, 

Just a quick update...

Cole is already much more active and coordinated. It's amazing to see how quickly he's developing. 

His crop is not emptying as quickly as I would like with the seeds, so I taught him to "drink" formula out of a bowl and have him on a half-seeds, half-formula diet. Any tips about crop mobility?

Some success with the bath. He hopped into it and walked around in the water, but didn't bathe as I've seen adult pigeons do.

Now that he's awake more, do I need to provide things in his enclosure to keep him from being bored? What sorts of things would be interesting and safe for him?

Thank you!
Danielle


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Danielle, 


He will not get bored...so long as you feed him or bring Seeds and peck with him off and on and bring him Water off and on through out the day.

They are very patient in their way.

Seeds take longer to pass from the Crop than formula...and typically they hydrate 'there' before passing on down to their Stomachs.

When being raised by their Pigeon Parents, typically the youngsters have full Crops all day long, from being fed or topped-off every so often to keep them full...their parents keep them 'stuffed'...and, at night, the Crop more or less emptys.

The ACV-Water will be very good for him...


So, just keep him ore or less 'stuffed' both by occasional feeds and moreso by supervised occasions of bringing Seeds fresh minced Greens, and some Goji Berrys cut into bite sized bits, ) and pecking with him...and all should be fine.

He should be making about 45 to 50 decent poops every 24 hours...give or take...

Just try not to let him over-eat in the supervised pecking occasions...by remembering that whatever the just-filled content Seed wise, of his Crop...these Seeds will expand as they hydrate from the Water you will be offering off and on...


What kind of Seeds are you providing? I forget...

But whatever they are, you can go get some actual Pigeon Mix...get him started on it...and please, unless you intend for him TO spend his life as an indoor pet, start taking him NOW to wherever the local feral flocks graze, feed 'them'...and set him down to graze with them while you crouch down staying close and watching him...

He needs to have this experience five or six times, for fifteen minutes each time, at least, before he is flying, or else you will have no way to provide it and he will merely fly off unprepared and not socialized to his kind...


Soon as he IS pecking Seeds and getting them, start doing this, it is crucial...and will also help him improve his peckinf faster, being shoulder-to-shoulder with Adult Pigeons...


Best wishes!

Phil 
Las Vegas


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Danielle, you can add either a product called Beneback (a probiotic) or plain yogurt to his formula (about 1/2 tsp). I have found this works wonders in helping their crop to digest the formula.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> Hmmmm!
> ...


Hi Phil,

Sialoliths in pigeons seem to be thought of as viral (Herpesvirus) in the medical community, though yes, either viral or bacterial can cause plaque in general. Put the plaque together w/the loss of feathering at the lower mandible and it suggests something going on there.

Speers and Ford are vets @ the same Avian medical center that I was turned
on to by another member here. They are just remarkable in their knowledge
base. For example, I understand Speers has operated on a Condor, imagine that! Ford raised pigeons for many years.
They are a strictly speaking Birds 'R' Us type of medical center. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/725968.html

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/725959.html

Danielle, that's some good advice on the probiotics from Maggie. It is 
a significant aid not only to the digestion but also in discouraging a rise 
in population for organisms that don't do well in acidic environments, namely 
most of the things you don't want getting out of hand and creating health
imbalances. Also, compatible w/the raw ACV, or ACV in general.

fp


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Hello everyone,

To those of you who have been following this thread, I have created a new thread on my plan to possibly keep Cole in the Wild "Feral" Pigeons forum - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20050.

I will continue posting updates and questions here on his growth and progress.

Cole is doing well today. He has helicoptered a few times, but has not gained any height yet. Best of all, it seems like some feathers are growing on those bare patches on his neck! I will post a picture this evening if I have time.

Danielle


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

The cable for my camera has been temporarily misplaced, so no pictures until I find it, but he is definitely growing feathers on his neck.

One of Cole's toes (the outside one on the right foot) is rotated almost completely 90 degrees forward on its long axis (rolled forward, some might say). The vet saw it, palpated it, and said it wasn't hurting him and had been that way for a while, but I'm not sure it isn't hurting.... have you seen this? Is there anything I can do? I will upload a picture of it as soon as I can.

Danielle


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

I got a call from his vet. The mouth, throat, and fecal samples were all negative for fungus, worms, and protozoans (no canker - yay!).


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Excellent update. Thank you for letting us know.

Reti


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Here is a side-by-side comparison of Cole one week ago (the day he was found) and today. It is amazing how fast he is growing!

P.S. His eye is fine - it's just the camera flash reflecting off the back of his retina - the same thing that causes "red-eye" in pictures of people.


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Here are two pictures of what I was talking about with this toe. See how the outside toe on his right foot is crooked and rolled forward? What do you think?


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Cole looks great, he is growing and you are a good mommy pigeon person, his toe will be fine, he will learn to use it as it is so I would not worry about it what so ever.

Great job with your little youngsters, keep up the good work. 

Ellen


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dlgilbert4 said:


> Here are two pictures of what I was talking about with this toe. See how the outside toe on his right foot is crooked and rolled forward? What do you think?


Hi Danielle,

I notice that on the left foot, there is a very small segment that is brown in color (Middle toe) and wondering what that is?

The right foot, one of the toes appears to be curved backwards in a way that
I don't usually see. Is this what you are referring to? There might be an issue
of arthritis later on in life, I don't know that it is a given though.

Cole is adorable and it does look as though you are getting some feathering
in the area around the lower mandible. So this is something that you are 
probably still keeping an eye on as well. How are the abnormalties inside the
mouth coming along?? If this was what the text was talking about, it
would be viral and a bit soon to take out of isolation. You could run
a test I'm sure or treat as though viral in origin and give it the commensurate
time in isolation and care. This is how I'd most likely proceed if there were 
evidence of abnormalty w/out lab work especially if I found matching symptoms in medical texts. Something to think about.

fp


----------



## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks, reloft. It's nice to not worry.



feralpigeon said:


> Hi Danielle,
> 
> I notice that on the left foot, there is a very small segment that is brown in color (Middle toe) and wondering what that is?


Poop. 



feralpigeon said:


> The right foot, one of the toes appears to be curved backwards in a way that
> I don't usually see. Is this what you are referring to?


That is what I'm referring to about the rolled toe. If you look at the claw, especially in the top picture, you can see that the toe is completely sideways. The side that would usually point straight up actually points straight forward, so he is walking on the side of his toe rather than the bottom.



feralpigeon said:


> Cole is adorable and it does look as though you are getting some feathering
> in the area around the lower mandible. So this is something that you are
> probably still keeping an eye on as well. How are the abnormalties inside the
> mouth coming along??


The white regions are almost gone! I hadn't checked his mouth in a few days since it is hard on both on us for him to open his mouth VERY wide at JUST the right angle, but only the left rear region is still white, and it appear smaller. Whatever was causing the whiteness appears to be in control.  

Thanks, fp.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dlgilbert4 said:


> ....
> 
> That is what I'm referring to about the rolled toe. If you look at the claw, especially in the top picture, you can see that the toe is completely sideways. The side that would usually point straight up actually points straight forward, so he is walking on the side of his toe rather than the bottom.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update, I'm sure s/he'll continue to do well in your care.

fp


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Cole gets *very* excited when I feed him now. I spread out a towel, put some seeds on it, and then get Cole out of his box and put him on the towel. It's the same routine I've been doing since the beginning. Now, as soon as he is on the towel and if my hands are anywhere in his sight, he will run up to my hand squawking continously (a much louder, insistent sound than his normal squeak) and pecking my hand all over, looking for food. Then he will hit my hand/arm with his wing, then peck my hand some more. It takes me a while to refocus him. I "peck" at the seeds and say "Cole, eat your seeds" just like I have been doing, but he prefers pecking at my hand than at the seeds.

Also, I am worried that I have spoiled him by letting him drink formula. I started doing it because he was eating only seeds and not really having any water and I was worried about him getting dehydrated. He still won't have more than a few sips of water and does the behavior described above (pecking, squawking, and wing fu) until I give him the formula to drink. But he sure loves it! As soon as he sees the bowl with the yellow formula he runs right over and starts to sip. Only with the formula will he eat until his crop is full. With only the seeds he seems to lose interest.

I am currently handling the situation by feeding him out on the towel with seeds and formula twice a day and putting some seeds in his box for him to eat without supervision three times a day. He must eat the seeds I put in his box since they've always disappeared by the next feeding time, but I worry that he's not getting enough water so I result to the formula.... what should I do? Is it bad for him to be favoring the formula so much?

Danielle


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Danielle,

It sounds as if Cole is a happy little spoiled pigeon, you did say that you were considering adopting him and keep him as a companion didn't you, I hope so as he thinks you are his mommy now. 

The formula will not hurt him, it is very nutritious for him, he will drink the water as he will not go thirst, as he get's older you can treat the formula as a treat to train him to do different things, I have a 2 year old African Gray that will still act like a baby when it comes to getting a little formula, she loves it and I still give it to her, I don't think it is any different then us drinking those souped up drinks with vitamins for humans.

Good job.

Ellen


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Cole is still doing well. His right ankle joint is a little swollen and he is favoring that foot, but it looks as though his toe is rotating back to a normal position.

I have a question about grit. I purchased Kaytee Hi-Cal Grit and have added a little to his seeds so he learns to eat it as well. What happens to the grit in his crop? Is it dissolved by acidicity, or does it just pass through intact? Does it hurt him when these small rocks are passing through?

Danielle


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pigeon grit is dissolved and digested. My birds have two kinds, one that is like a picking cake that the hens really go for because it is oyster shell and more, it definitely is digested and utilized for calcium uptake for eggs. The other is the red pigeon grit also used for crushing the seeds in the crop and also a caclium source.

The youngsters don't really pick at it until they are completely weaned.
You should keep the grit in a seperate dish from seed, as they go to the grit when they feel the need.

If he didn't fall and hurt his ankle, you might want to get a fecal done and find out what is going on. It is possible he may need some Baytril or something else.


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Help! Cole's ankle is very swollen! Have you seen this before? 

From Wed. April 4th until two days ago, his toe was crooked and he favored the foot a little bit (see the pictures in the previous posts). Yesterday and the day before, his ankle was a little swollen and he favored the foot a lot. Today, it's very swollen, but he's not favoring it at all - the toe has also returned to a more normal position. What is going on? Is it possible he broke it in the presumed four-story fall out of his nest on Wednesday the 4th and it's just now swelling and healing?



Trees Gray said:


> If he didn't fall and hurt his ankle, you might want to get a fecal done and find out what is going on. It is possible he may need some Baytril or something else.


Treesa: his mouth, crop, and fecal samples tested normal as of Saturday, April 7th.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Danielle,

I was initially concerned when you found Cole, because I've found that usually the ones that are sick are the ones that 'fall' from the nest. It isn't always a
given, but in my own experience it's been the rule of thumb. I believe your 
vet tested for parasites, fungus and Trichomoniasis.



dlgilbert4 said:


> I got a call from his vet. The mouth, throat, and fecal samples were all negative for fungus, worms, and protozoans (no canker - yay!).


I don't think that any tests for abnormal viral or bacterial activity were done.
I would test for Bacteria, you may need to run a course of Baytril. For now,
I wouldn't stress out on the self-feeding mode and instead, keep a good eye
on his food intake. If he seems to be not taking in enough through-out the
day, I would augment w/formula or seed pops.

If the vet does find Bacteria and puts him on Baytril, then you should
pull the grit as it will bind w/the medication reducing it's efficacy.

fp


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> I believe your
> vet tested for parasites, fungus and Trichomoniasis.


She also said that the observed bacteria were normal in number and type....


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Cole and I went to the avian vet this morning to have his toe checked. The vet palpated the area, noting that the swelling was very firm and not warm to the touch, nor was it painful upon palpatation. Her best guess (with which I agree) is that the toe was broken at the joint either before he fell or because of the fall and that the break is healing now. The swelling is new bone growth that is serving to stabilize the break. Her conclusion makes sense to me, especially since his foot was very painful during the three days of the toe rotating back into position and the swelling developing, but it has not been painful at all since then. I could have had a radiograph taken to be sure of the cause, but it was prohibitively expensive.

On another note, I took Cole to feed with a local flock as Phil recommended. Instead of eating the seeds I had spread out, Cole chased each bird, squeaking to be fed. Some of the ones he was chasing threatened to hold him down and/or peck him, so I quickly scooped him up and put him back in the carrier.

Here is a picture of Cole taken last night. You can see that the area on his cheek is starting to grow feathers.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*What a handsome young bird!*

I'm so glad Cole is growing up so nicely. What a great mom you are! Love the fancy crystal bowl he has  
Please keep us posted. It's nice to see success.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Danielle,

Glad to hear that the vet thought his toe is on the mend and he's doing
well. He is really adorable in the picture and yes, the feathers continue growing
in around the lower mandible and chin. I am curious if you've decided to release
Cole after all, I guess so, it sounds as though you are working on a 'soft release'. Look forward to your updates!

fp


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Do teenage pigeons grow through a stage where they lose their baby tail feathers and grow adult tail feathers? Cole's original tail feathers seem to be falling out.

Thanks,
Danielle


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

dlgilbert4 said:


> Do teenage pigeons grow through a stage where they lose their baby tail feathers and grow adult tail feathers? Cole's original tail feathers seem to be falling out.
> 
> Thanks,
> Danielle


When they molt, the tail feathers fall out and grow back one by one. They start with the middle feather. Don't know how old Cole is,,but he seems a bit young to be molting tail feathers already. Have you notice him loosing his flight feathers?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Danielle, I thought Cole seemed a bit young as well. I'm sure you can pick up 
a bottle of Scalex Mite and Lice Spray for Birds and treat for mites/lice w/this
product. I use the cut off end of a sock--the toe part--as a hood when I'm 
spraying to ensure that the spray doesn't get in the nares, eyes, mouth. Spray
under the wings, rump, and flip over for the other side. I extend the wings when spraying for better coverage overall.
Hope you're both doing well otherwise.

fp


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> When they molt, the tail feathers fall out and grow back one by one. They start with the middle feather. Don't know how old Cole is,,but he seems a bit young to be molting tail feathers already. Have you notice him loosing his flight feathers?


The long stiff feathers on his wings (which I take are the flight feathers?) haven't been falling out or showing signs of degradation at all. And yes, his tail feathers have been falling out from the middle. Here are some pictures of his tail. It almost looks like it was injured somehow, where the lighter grayish line is - maybe he got hurt before I found him and the feathers are just now falling out since he is just now actually using them for flight? What do you think?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Danielle, looks like a combination of some mite or lice damage ( I'd suspect mites)at the very ends of the tail feathers and trauma to the feathers as I can see that in a couple of the feathers they are bent w/a kink in the shaft. I would still treat w/Scalex and what to do about the tail feathers? You can wait for a molt or gently and firmly grasp the
feather shaft at the base and give a slow pull to the shaft, pulling it out. This will enable a new feather to replace it which usually takes 4-6 weeks to grow out. If you decide to pull out, just do a couple a day so that it's easier on Cole
overall.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Danielle, we often get in fledglings with tail feathers that look like that. I have always thought it was the result of malnutrition that caused the feathers to not come in as they should. It is almost always the tail feathers that look like this. Not sure if I can describe this adequately but a feather looks ok except there is a break in the middle where there is nothing. They often will break off at that spot too. About the only thing we do is just give them time to grow them back in. 

Treating for mites/lice always is beneficial but it seems to me you could see them and they also damage other feathers as well as the tail feathers.

I went back and looked at Cole's last pictures and his tail feathers look like what I'm (trying) to describe. I know you're feeding him well so it will just take time. He sure is a cutie.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Could be malnutrition, except this one fell from the nest and so went from 
parents to Danielle. That's why I was thinking the fall in part could be responsible for the kinks in the shafts that I saw. The fraying at the ends 
is why I'm also thinking mites as this bird is a bit young to have that quality
to the tips of the feathers. If lice, yes, visible, but mites aren't always readily
seen on the feathers. I normally hold them to the light and look for signs
of damage, as it isn't always noticable otherwise.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, yeah, I know it is always difficult to tell about these things but he was a pretty good sized baby when he fell out going by Danielle's first post. Those we get also go from the parents to the ground, although in varying sizes, but most of them that come from the bridge that are the size Danielle described usually have this tail feather problem.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I see several tail feather 'issues' although I don't think them to be
a big problem. The ones that have the split I would indeed believe to be 

nutritional  , Maggie. The ones that have been bent over w/kink in shaft I
frequently see in falls, though they too can be nutritional. The fraying or lightness in the feathers at the extreme ends Scalex would help.

Guess whether or not she pulls or waits on severely damaged ones is kind of
dependant on whether she is trying to release or not. If Cole has become
a member of the household, then of course, no need. If Danielle is thinking
about releasing him, it may not be in Cole's best interest to wait.

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Nope, that's not the molt.........that's damaged feathers. I'd go with the lice/mite treatment first.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I may get a closer look as Danielle asked me if I would take over the
care and release for Cole. As long as this is still in the cards towards the end
of the week, then Cole will be shifting residences.

fp


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## dlgilbert4 (Apr 5, 2007)

Yes, as mentioned above, I will be transferring Cole to fp for the completion of his rehabilitation. I am unable to allow him much free inside flight-time and have no other pigeons with which to acclimate him. It seems like the best thing for his long term happiness is to be released after a more formal growth-and-learning process.

As much as I want to keep him, I have to be realistic. I have always wanted a bird, but my apartment doesn't have the space necessary to accommodate a large enough cage for a pigeon. He also seems happiest when alone, rather than in my hands, so he would probably prefer to be wild.

Thank you, everyone, for your words of support and advice. I am greatly indebted to you all.

Danielle


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

An update on Cole who has innocently enough transformed into Colette. When Cole came in, she was pretty hot to the touch, very skinny w/sharp keel, lots of bare spots, and some very irregular looking tissue in the mouth and esophagus though I wouldn't call this classic canker by any stretch. The droppings were very sour smelling though and there seemed to be a specific hot spot at the base of the crop. The 'lump' on her foot for want of a better description had the whole area enflamed/swollen and it has decreased in size within a few of days of initiating the anitbiotics.

There was definitely evidence of mite damage to the feathers when I held them to the light, though this bird was probably not getting it's nutritional needs met by drinking the formula from the bowl, so both were issues for Colette.

I decided to wait on the seed segue and tubed KT Exact instead...twice a day...I also left the seeds out for Colette just in case. She got a bath and mite treatment, Scatt, and I put her on Enrofloxan and Carnidazole. 

Her bare spots that had no growth before are sporting pin feathers now and she has put some meat on the old bones but she still has a ways to go on that issue. She's quite the little sweetie and likes to sit on my hand or anywhere on me for that matter, so even once she is better and the feathers are up to snuff, this will still need to be looked at. Hopefully the guys here can teach her some 'tude'  

Here's a link to Webshots and her folder w/some pics I took today, sorry I didn't take them within a day or two of her arrival, but they will still tell a story.

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2888024640066604705gXXAFr

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Colette is lookin' pretty good, FP. Thank you so much for taking her in and doing all that you have for her. She surely does look a bit "ragged" around the edges to say the least, but I know she's looking better than she did when she arrived.

Thanks for posting the treatment you have given as it will be helpful to others with similar cases.

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Colette has sure been through some rough patches! Bless her heart.

I'm sure that she will do just fine but will still send WARM HEALING THOUGHTS, HUGS and SCRITCHES!!

Wishing her all the best! I know you will keep us updated, fp...many thanks!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

I'm sure Colette is doing well under you care, can't wait to see more updates.

Thanks for taking the time to update us with details of her care.


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