# Why do rollers ... roll ? The truth



## Hambone

What causes Birmingham Rollers and tumbling breeds to roll and tumble ? I read several articles via Internet about the subject , some say its a siezure and a genetic defect in the birds , others say its a trait just as some hunting dogs are pointers and setters and just do what they are bred to do . 

I fail to see how it could be a random siezure because they can all do the roll together after lots of flight hours and training . I suppose its possible , but it doesnt make sense to me how they would all do it together UNLESS one bird had a siezure and the others just imitated its actions , then another bird siezed up and was imitated ? Hmm , now I'm thinking too much 

Maybe the birds just learned to get a kick out of doing backflips ? LOL . 

Those of you that fly these fun birds , whats your take on it ? 

Hambone


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## bigislerollers

Aloha Hambone,

Very good question. No one has really figured out the answer to that question yet. 
My take on it is that it's not a genetic *defect* as some say but a trait that has been bred for. It's a trait like the exteme sense of smell that bloodhounds have. I also do not believe that it's a seizure in the sence of an epileptic seizure, because the birds have shown to be able to control the roll impulse. In fact the birds look as if they enjoy rolling. 
I think that this will remain as one of the mysteries of life.


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## TheSnipes

bigislerollers said:


> I think that this will remain as one of the mysteries of life.


Like how homers home!


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## BabbaYagga

*Rollers*

Ive never owned rollers and I dont know much about them, but have you ever seen pigeons (homing pigeons) do those little swerves, drops and stunts while flying, that look as if they're trying to escape a predator? Maybe that has something to do with the roller trait. What do you think?


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## Vasp

I know nothing about roller pigeons.  But it seems to me it's an ability they possess for escaping predators quickly, and confusing predators... Or even distracting them... But I'd say they use the skill now to have fun. Homing pigeons sure have fun playing in the wind and flying.


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## TheSnipes

Vasp said:


> I know nothing about roller pigeons.  But it seems to me it's an ability they possess for escaping predators quickly, and confusing predators... Or even distracting them... But I'd say they use the skill now to have fun. Homing pigeons sure have fun playing in the wind and flying.


Actually, I think the tumbling/rolling makes them more vulnerable? Which leads to the enormous conflict between birds of prey and roller owners/clubs. Witness the rather large 'undercover' case out west last year. Please correct me if I'm wrong! I think it would confuse me if I was after one...


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## Grim

BabbaYagga said:


> Ive never owned rollers and I dont know much about them, but have you ever seen pigeons (homing pigeons) do those little swerves, drops and stunts while flying, that look as if they're trying to escape a predator? Maybe that has something to do with the roller trait. What do you think?


I think you have a good point. Maybe a variation of the behavior.


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## ND Cooper

From what I have read about rollers, I would say that they are bread for their talent, because if they had a problem with their brains, you would think that other bad traits would show up also. Such as, loseing their balance in the loft ect. or whole famlies hitting the ground together, instead of just one.Or just plain going tard after a couple years, in otherwords, getting worse as time gos on, with no cure. Do they have the same life span (Natural) as other pigeons? I've had a r-homer hen that had to live 12 or 13 yrs.
If it's a defect, then you would think that their natural life span would be shorter, and their overall breed, collectively, would not be as successful as other breeds of pigeons.
But, the way mankind has changed pigeon breeds to his likeing, surely rollers are manmade. I don't think that there is one forest of trees somewhere overseas, where they all came from.
Do rollers have more problems ( very noticeable problems ) when the weather is warmer or hot? My 2 cents, ND Cooper


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## rsduhamel

*Is it seizures or is it just fun.*

Has anyone ever seen a Birmingham Roller tumble all the way into the ground? The nimrod who wrote this article says they do and is cited at Wikipedia as an authority (where the article says the birds have seizures).

I raised Birmingham Rollers while in high school. I'm convinced they roll because it's fun.


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## jbangelfish

*They do seem to roll for fun*

Whether it's really fun to them or not, we're not likely to ever know but it is clear that good rollers and tumblers are able to control it and only do so when they want to.

There are birds that are not able to control it as well and even some that are unable to fly once this rolling tendency takes over. Parlor rollers and parlor tumblers are flightless and only roll across the ground. When they are young, they are able to fly (I never knew this until recently as I never had any desire to have any). I personally consider this cruel and would not raise them for that reason. There are waltzing mice that have an inner ear disorder which disables them from walking anywhere except in a circle. Some consider them amusing, I don't.

Good rollers sometimes produce birds that are not able to control their rolling as well and some do hit the ground. These are called rolldowns and sometimes it kills them. There are also birds that flip once or twice when alarmed or when trying to take off quickly. These were probably bred to together at some point until the parlor birds emerged. I would not consider any of them as a candidate for a breeder when you are trying to breed good rollers but rolldown birds are often bred from as there is a fine line between breeding a very deep roller and a rolldown.

There is an in between breed called Syrian Coop Tumbler which will do these flips inside a flight or coop or low to the ground. I used to raise them and they did OK and did not make the birds which could not fly at all. Whether they occur in the breed at all, I don't know.

Bill


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## outcold00

I have what I think is a Armenian tumbler that trapped in my loft. It wasnt banded, so I decided to kept it. I fly it with my highflyers and when they fly together he doesnt tumble at all. But when I let him out by himself he tumbles so much that its almost hard for him to fly. I think they roll or tumble because thats what they want to do.


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## jbangelfish

*Do they fly too fast?*

In a group of homers, a roller may never roll as they keep moving too fast. Perhaps your highfliers do the same, although many highfliers are closely related to rollers.

Rollers will slow down and stall before rolling. In a group that won't do this, they have no time to roll and the good ones that have control of themselves won't in this situation.

Bill


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## RodSD

I think they do it for fun. I forgot what article I've read, but they already did some neurological studies on rollers and they are not defective as people think. Rollers just find rolling exhilarating so they do it--euphoria.


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## TheGame

If it was a seizure then wouldnt they just drop... Some of my Rollers set themselfs up and get into the right position when it comes time to roll.

Also if it was a seizure wouldn't they roll when a BOP is on their tail? Every time my birds have gotten chased they just take off and keep flying no rolling...


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## fresnobirdman

they roll cause its a defect.
they have the ability to cramp their back muscle, therefor causing them to do rapid summersults.

and rollers live as long as any other birds.
i have read many roller mens note in other sites that their rollers live to be the most at 17 years.many are blind at this age.
cant fertilize and are stiff in the air.


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## RodSD

Some info I found about rollers.

This paper says it is NERVOUS SYSTEM ABNORMALITIES.
http://www.grandin.com/welfare/genetics.animal.welfare.html

This paper says something different. It is inconclusive.
http://www.labmeeting.com/papers/pu...is_muscle_fibers_of_normal_and_roller_pigeons


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## george simon

Well here is my 2 cents worth on the subject. I do not have rollers or highflyers but have flown race birds.I believe that healthy birds love to fly and will show this in many ways.When I flew my racers they would do what I called dippey doodle they would buzz the loft at high speeds and even zigg zag and then leave and then return and do their little act all over again.They were happy ,healthy,and in good condition.When my birds did not do these things I knew that something was wrong with the birds.  ..........GEORGE


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## Grimaldy

Two interesting papers RodSD,

The first paper correctly reports that when animals are bred for a particular desired trait, other characteristics of the animal change, and the changes are not good. That paper sees the Roller pigeon as essentially a genetically engineered bird, selected from an ancestor that had the characteristic of rolling in flight, bred largely for the amusement of the owners.

The second paper reports on an attempt to measure the excitability of the nervous system in a particular neck muscle of different kinds of pigeons, I would guess following the suggestions raised by the authors of the first paper, that genetically induced behavior is linked to excitability. I would think that even if they were able to conclusively prove such a link, the question would still remain, so what? A genetically engineered bird is the result of the change induced by selective breeding, however it comes to be.

So the end result is as george simon puts it, birds that are just happy living with the breeding characteristics the breeders gave them... and making the best of it.


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## johnnyksspeedshop

Ok, I believe that it is a nueroscience abnormaility. All it takes is one pigeon that did a flip, and someone saw it, and caught it and selectively bred for the specific mutation. After all, thats the difference between a homer, roller, highflier and show bird. They are not doing it for "fun," as much as we would like to think that. Does a homer home for fun or a highflier fly high for "fun"? Simply no, otherwise why would a homer not want to have fun doing back flips or a show bird want to have fun flying high? So lets go over some things we know about rollers:
1) Rolling is heritable, meaning that it IS a genetic factor
2) Rolling was brought by selective breed of a mutation
3) Rollers have some control of expressing this gene (they can prevent a roll in certain times)
4) There are triggers that effect the if they roll (other birds rolling, clap of other birds wings during a roll, even a clap of your hands sometimes, a fast increase in altitude like during heavy winds, etc)
5) Rolling in the wild would be a cost, thus natural selection would remove the mutation


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## LittleJohn

A lot of very interesting opinions on this one. Seems to be about like explaining how salt tastes. It would be interesting to really know the facts on this question, maybe we never will?


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## RodSD

Sometimes I like to think that when my homers are flying they are having fun darting back and forth. I have no explanation why they can't wait to get out and fly. In fact many of them try to escape every time I open the door.

For rollers I think they are doing it partly for fun as well and their genetics allow them to do that. They can control their fall you know. I also notice that when you release your rollers with your homer usually they will not roll much or roll at all so they are not at the mercy of their neurotransmitters. Now the only way to test this theory is to wire those bird's brain and see whether the pleasure center is being triggered. And if we can get some blood we can test for pleasure chemicals. In human sex studies those are the protocols to follow to see whether sex is fun. LOL!


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## Birdman79

If it was a nervous system abnormality then they would continue rolling/tumbling even if they saw a raptor.When they're getting chased by hawks/falcons they like any other domesticated pigeon fly to escape(no rolling/tumbling).I've seen in with my own eyes in which the birds are showing off ,and as soon as a hawk shows up they're up there flying really high for hours sometimes without a single tumble.


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## guvensancak

Hi Everybody ;

I am breeding Turkish Roller pigeon Donek and it s really very skilfull roller . I d like to mention on it a bit.

We are starting to teach diving a Donek since their first fly and it s really very hard thing to catch a real rolling from Donek. You have to be very patient and good breeder for educate them.

They can fly very fast to height. When you show them to bird on ground they gather their wing and directly dive and than during this diving once or more the tail wing axis propeller-shaped rotary. Rehabilitated goal in this race, spin to high-speed at long distance. There is a difference position of wing from bird to bird during spin. Some of them fix their wing onto body during spin, most of them keep the wing quarter open. Others, stretch their wings as wide as possible during spin. Looking from the side view each spin is easily visible and clear, unlike rollers, when one turn stops and the other starts, even in the fastest birds is obvious.The best dives happen in 45 degrees to Earth and any variation from this will effect the quality of dive negatively.

Regards

Guven SANCAK


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## LittleJohn

I have raised coonhounds for many years, they are trained to trail and tree their quarry, and stay there until their master arrives. I have had the opportunity to raise some hounds who just did it automatically, just by going out hunting, and I have also raised some who never did get the idea. 

Instinctive reaction to surroundings can bring out bred in traits, I believe that rollers have these bred in traits, and that the better a breeder develops these traits in his birds, the more consistent they will perform. I dont buy off on the genetic defect bandwagon, or the seizure idea. 

It may have to do with their ability to enjoy their flight, and their way of expressing their contentment when fying. That's my take on it.


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## Spin City USA

We can speculate all day and never find out why they do what they do. I just enjoy the heck out of them. I dont think they do it for fun, it is just what they are bred to do. Some birds clearly dont like to spin that fast and are possesed by the impulse to do so. They usually fly away from the kit and may or may not perform, because as soon as they get with the kit and are stimulated may lock up and spin deeper than they like. These birds are usuall unstable and usually eliminate themselves from the gene pool when they hit the ground. Other birds possess a lot of spin and seem to enjoy the activity. If you watch them after they perform they will race back to front of the kit to do it again. I reall cant say that they enjoy it, they are just doing what they were bred to do. jmo.


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## Spin City USA

One other thing, I dont believe the birds use it as a defense against Hawk attack(if they are they are not very good at it) because too many good ones get grabbed by the sharks. They always get the good performers first.


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## wilded

I believe it is a trait that certain pigeons had that was developed by close breeding. Just as bird dogs that point were developed by breeding for the trait. Some dogs hesitated before jumping on their prey and that paticular trait was selected for in breeding the dogs. Some pigeons just tumbled or turned a somersault and that trait was bred for until we had the roller. If rollers escape to the wild it does not take long for the roll to be bred out. Just like horse breeds that have a special gait will lose the gait if not bred to horses with like gaits.


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## LUCKYT

WonWorld, If your theory is correct, how do you explain adult Rollers that are 3 to 4 years Old, NOT Rolling till in the New Loft, and Flying FOR Months, And than one year they Roll, and From then on. i think they have some control over it. Dave


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## Spin City USA

Lucky, In some familys of rollers the birds can come into the roll or spin at 5 to 8 months. Some come in at 4 month but are not mature enough to handle it. In some familys they make take 1 to 2 years. Some breeders like this as they think it makes for a more stable pigeon. Most breeders that I know want them to come in before 1 year and still be stable and this is possible thru selective breeding. The control factor is more with the breeder than with the pigeon. The breeder can control the deapth, frequency, and quality if he knows his birds and knows what to look for in them.


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## LUCKYT

Sorry, i saw these Birds Roll when i Got them. Dave


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## RodSD

Roller quality varies. Some roll down because they can't control the fall. Some do and they are labeled good. We selected those features we want from these birds.


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## velo99

They roll because they can and they like it. 

In a competetion a few weeks ago my best team scored a blazing 7.58 points. One break. The week before I scored them at 506.87 with 15 breaks in the same time period of 20 minutes. They acted like they were on fire. They would set up get ready to roll and by the same pigeon language they use to go on a break they decided as a group not to. They would simply fly thru the break. They have control of their ability. 

I have seen ferals and rollers use some of the same maneuvers to fine tune thier landing into a difficult area. Ony thing I havent seen in a 'non' performer is an actual spin or a plate. I dont have a fancy degree or a scientific background but I do study my birds and thier behavior. 

I cant do a series of backflips for a floor excercise or run the hundred in 10 flat. There are people who can because they have the genetic propensity to have the physical capabilities to perform the maneuvers. Same difference. 

jmho
v99


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## ND Cooper

I have to say, that if they choose their actions, given the time, all the time in the world, if possable, and 
put in with a group of feral pigeons (set Free?) (normal pigeons), again givin all the time in the world, that, one roller, would revert back to a normal (wild ) pigeon. (through environmental change) or would try as best as it could.
If not, you have a perfect machine, that cannot change.
The Perfect roller pigeon.
If I let my professionally trained bird dog sluff off, he will, do what ever he wants to do.
Freedom makes a difference.
I started smoking Cigs in H.S. I quit for 6 yrs. Now I smoke again-It's not genitic.

All breeds of pigeons are man made, (influenced) except one.


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## ppcook

My dad raised rollers in the 1970s and 80s (some of you may have seen his book, "Genetics Made Simple: with special reference to pigeons" by Dr. Paul P. Cook, Jr) and I recall him telling me that they were descended from a particular flock found in Birmingham, maybe a century or two ago.

Does anyone know when that was?


Paul P. Cook, III


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## velo99

Paul,
I think it was in the mid 1700`s when the breed was actually named and recognised. I dont have anything here in front of me but I think I am close. They were advertised for sale in the 30`s as roller pigeons in the states. I think it was Whittingham who claimed credit for developing the breed and shipped to the US in 1870`s even though there were several faniciers working on the breed. There are a few in depth conversations and some research around on the internet. I might not be exaclty correct in my statements but I have read a lot of info on this subject over the last few years. 
I wasnt prepared for a test this morning. lol


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## Columba livia!

this is a very interesting thread!


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## yellowking

*Rollers does not roll for fun.* If at all it is for our (human) pleasure, we continue the defects in their genes so that we can enjoy it. The rolling ability is not performed at will, these birds do it uncontrollably. Have you seen a roll down? or a bump? No being on earth will roll for fun just to end up like that. Stop applying human theories and human logic into animals.

A fantail did not make sure it keeps its fantail beauty because it wants to win a show, a homer did not want to only breed with the fastest bird in town so that it can win the prize for its owner!


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## RodSD

I have seen that one of my rollers was able to stop before hitting my roof--twice! It has control! The other bird didn't and hit the ground after takeoff. If these guys doesn't have control they probably will keep on rolling inside the loft uncontrollably killing themselves. I think this is not like Parkinson's disease type. With respect to fun, we don't officially know that yet. But I believe animals have emotions, too, and one of them is pleasure. Have you ever tumbled for fun as kids? I did, and I enjoyed it.


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## ppcook

velo99 said:


> Paul,
> I think it was in the mid 1700`s when the breed was actually named and recognised. I dont have anything here in front of me but I think I am close. They were advertised for sale in the 30`s as roller pigeons in the states. I think it was Whittingham who claimed credit for developing the breed and shipped to the US in 1870`s even though there were several faniciers working on the breed. There are a few in depth conversations and some research around on the internet. I might not be exaclty correct in my statements but I have read a lot of info on this subject over the last few years.
> I wasnt prepared for a test this morning. lol


Thanks for the historical info! Interesting discussion here.


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## plamenh

> Rollers does not roll for fun. If at all it is for our (human) pleasure, we continue the defects in their genes so that we can enjoy it. The rolling ability is not performed at will, these birds do it uncontrollably. Have you seen a roll down? or a bump? No being on earth will roll for fun just to end up like that. Stop applying human theories and human logic into animals.
> 
> A fantail did not make sure it keeps its fantail beauty because it wants to win a show, a homer did not want to only breed with the fastest bird in town so that it can win the prize for its owner!


That's the real answer!!!


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## velo99

I disagree,
Rollers can choose not to roll. I have too many in my loft as fosters to not know that is a fact. 

v99


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## birds+me=happy

Well the way I see it, everyone has there own theories about the fact; so if you want to know you just have to make your own theory, or just agree with someone else.


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## yellowking

velo99 said:


> I disagree,
> Rollers can choose not to roll. I have too many in my loft as fosters to not know that is a fact.
> 
> v99


That's because your birds can't roll. 

You can't look at your own flock and then apply it to the general roller population in the world. Pretty bold to make the statement that it is a fact. Very close minded, if you ask me.

Have you actually seen a top class roller perform before? I have seen birds that spin so fast that they immediately land because they go into shock. I have seen birds that spin so fast their eyes pops out. 

You are saying that rollers have the option to choose to spin their egg sacks, eyes, and guts out?

Yeah...Let me know because I want to make sure I don't have any rolldwon this year. Especially if they can choose to live or not. If possible I would want every bird in my loft to survive.


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## sreeshs

It has to be a breeding trait, developed in course of selective breeding. I am not able to comment whether the roll is because of a physical characteristic/defect/ability. 

If it was really for fun, then why wouldn't a good number of other pigeon breeds around the world try doing the same ? To add a little confusion, or is it that they do it for fun because the criteria for selective breeding (knowingly/unknowingly) was this fun element itself ? 

But one comment to which I would disagree is on the hawk attack factor. A last minute rolls and tumbles get them off the course and is an effective prey tactic against predator attack in air.


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## keystonepaul

seems like rolling just ain't some folks cup of tea, which is fine. Also seems to me that some folks enjoy rollers which appears to be fine as well. Rolling doesn't appear to be much different than any other trait such as the color of a bird, body type, flying ability, a hound dogs nose, a coonhounds ability and willingness to stay at a tree for hour after hour till you get thier, etc. The only difference I see between breeding homers and rollers is that more people find breeding homers for speed and stanima is somehow better or more noble than breeding for rolling. In closing it would seem to me that there are enough folks critical of rollers, tumblers, homers and the like outside of the pigeon world that we don't need to add to that internally. Peace, Keystonepaul


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## velo99

Yellow,
Dont even go there with the personal insults and disparaging comments. 
I have had birds hit the ground, and I had one hen spin the ovum out. 
I have birds in my loft that spin 30-40 feet one day and fly like homers the next. 
Its the nature of the beast for a competition flyer. 
Most rollers have to be in condition to roll. Its a mixture of diet and physical conditioning. 
Rollers that escape or are free lofted will eventually stop rolling for the most part.
Spinning out of the ovum is a mistake on the managers part for not knowing the hen is eggy. Rolldowns are bred too hot and lack control,another case of mismanagement even deeper into your management set. 
With this in mind look back and reassess your previous statement. 
v99


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## yellowking

velo99 said:


> Yellow,
> Dont even go there with the personal insults and disparaging comments.
> I have had birds hit the ground, and I had one hen spin the ovum out.
> I have birds in my loft that spin 30-40 feet one day and fly like homers the next.
> Its the nature of the beast for a competition flyer.
> Most rollers have to be in condition to roll. Its a mixture of diet and physical conditioning.
> Rollers that escape or are free lofted will eventually stop rolling for the most part.
> Spinning out of the ovum is a mistake on the managers part for not knowing the hen is eggy. Rolldowns are bred too hot and lack control,another case of mismanagement even deeper into your management set.
> With this in mind look back and reassess your previous statement.
> v99


Do you even listen to yourself? Don't be so defensive. Read your comments and your theories. You just stated a bunch of common sense facts...yet it is funny how your conclusion on why rollers roll contradict each other. 

No one is trying to insult you. I am just trying to point out that it is a bit close minded to make an assumption on a complicated topic basing your conclusion on your own flock. 

Your original statement was that roller has the ability to chose to roll or not to roll at will. Your support for this opinion was that just because your rollers didn't roll, then every roller in the world is just like the ones in your loft. 

My argument is that...
Rollers does not have the capability to choose whether to roll or not. They either learn to completely resist it, control it, or become extremely unstable.

Please use better facts or example to support your theories, that is all I ask.


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## Big T

yellowking said:


> Do you even listen to yourself? Don't be so defensive. Read your comments and your theories. You just stated a bunch of common sense facts...yet it is funny how your conclusion on why rollers roll contradict each other.
> 
> No one is trying to insult you. I am just trying to point out that it is a bit close minded to make an assumption on a complicated topic basing your conclusion on your own flock.
> 
> Your original statement was that roller has the ability to chose to roll or not to roll at will. Your support for this opinion was that just because your rollers didn't roll, then every roller in the world is just like the ones in your loft.
> 
> *My argument is that...
> Rollers does not have the capability to choose whether to roll or not. They either learn to completely resist it, control it, or become extremely unstable.*
> Please use better facts or example to support your theories, that is all I ask.


So it is like a handicap that they have learned to live with? Interesting point, Like why homers home we may never know why rollers roll, but I like your point.

Thanks,
Tony


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## Tennman1

Well, I am still to new to know anything about anything, but I do have an opinion, and it is based upon close observation of my rollers in flight,(my rollers). I can tell you when mine will roll and which ones are going to do it. I would estimate that I am right, more than I am wrong. Explanation: When I watch my rollers fly, I quickly figure out what the upper loft winds are doing. They may be same as ground level, or slightly different in orientation. Regardless, the majority of the time, they set up their glide into the wind, then at the edge of the stall, they roll. Some times I see them setting up and BAM, they roll, sometimes they start setting up and oooops, not quite right so they do a go around and set up again on the next glide. It is fun to watch, that's for sure. So, my opinion of my birds is that they roll when they are in the wind and everything is right to do it properly. So far, I have not seen any hit the ground due to pilot error. I think they make the decision,(based upon their natural instincts as pilots), to roll. Now, do I think they screw up and crash sometimes? Probably, and that may be due to a sudden wind change, or dead air over a certain section of land or building or whatever. Birds are amazing pilots but other forces can cause problems too. I think they are in total control, other than my explanation above.


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## Big T

Tennman1 said:


> Well, I am still to new to know anything about anything, but I do have an opinion, and it is based upon close observation of my rollers in flight,(my rollers). I can tell you when mine will roll and which ones are going to do it. I would estimate that I am right, more than I am wrong. Explanation: When I watch my rollers fly, I quickly figure out what the upper loft winds are doing. They may be same as ground level, or slightly different in orientation. Regardless, the majority of the time, they set up their glide into the wind, then at the edge of the stall, they roll. Some times I see them setting up and BAM, they roll, sometimes they start setting up and oooops, not quite right so they do a go around and set up again on the next glide. It is fun to watch, that's for sure. So, my opinion of my birds is that they roll when they are in the wind and everything is right to do it properly. So far, I have not seen any hit the ground due to pilot error. I think they make the decision,(based upon their natural instincts as pilots), to roll. Now, do I think they screw up and crash sometimes? Probably, and that may be due to a sudden wind change, or dead air over a certain section of land or building or whatever. Birds are amazing pilots but other forces can cause problems too. I think they are in total control, other than my explanation above.


Tennman1 brings up a good point. Is this true for most, do they set up into the wind. Make sense, easier to catch air and fly out of the roll when flying into the wind. Pulling up into a stall before rolling also makes sense. If this is true then control is being used, Now pulling out and spinning to fast could be young birds making mistakes while learning the tricks of the trade. Do we see this in older birds?

Just curious,
Tony


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## yellowking

Big T said:


> So it is like a handicap that they have learned to live with? Interesting point, Like why homers home we may never know why rollers roll, but I like your point.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tony


Yes but you have to be sensitive when comparing homer abilities and roller abilities.

Homer's ability is not a defect. It is an ability. When you are breeding homers, you are breeding for its ability.

As for rollers, you are breeding a defect within the bird. While selecting the breeding pairs we select the ones that are able to control their rolls.

If you are careless about what you breed, you will get rolldowns and unstable birds. *While we as roller hobbyist, it is our duty to morally, responsibly, and our best interest to make sure we breed stable rollers. *

So to emphasize my point again... 
If rollers have the capability to choose whether to commit suicide or not, then let me warn everyone. We should be afraid. Because right now at this very moment, a bunch of hogs at the butchery factory is plotting a war against us human for harvesting them for food  I'm not being sarcastic. I am being realistic.


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## keystonepaul

*My argument is that...
Rollers does not have the capability to choose whether to roll or not. They either learn to completely resist it, control it, or become extremely unstable.*
Could the same be said for homers- They do not have the capability to choose whether to home or not? much more acceptable compulsion- No? Is it compulsion or instinct- one having a negative connotation the other positive. Keystonepaul


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## yellowking

keystonepaul said:


> *My argument is that...
> Rollers does not have the capability to choose whether to roll or not. They either learn to completely resist it, control it, or become extremely unstable.*
> Could the same be said for homers- They do not have the capability to choose whether to home or not? much more acceptable compulsion- No? Is it compulsion or instinct- one having a negative connotation the other positive. Keystonepaul


Like I said, be sensitive. A homer's ability is not a defect. It is an asset. By saying "defect" I am stating that it is a negative factor to the bird. 

Keep in mind…when I am talking about assets and defects, I am considering their “human harvested ability” in relation to their natural state in the wild. 

Let me use another example. I consider a fantail to be a defect. Let me explain. In its natural state it would do no good for a pigeon to haul a load of unnecessary feathers in the wild. As we all know a fantail would never survive in the wild.

But keep in mind that the fantail did not get manifested into the breed by nature. We as human manipulated that particular gene. The pigeon has no power to accept or refuse the fantail.

Same goes for a roller. The rolling ability in the wild would do the bird no good. It is a defect.

When it comes to a homer, we have to consider that its ability is an asset. It would be ideal in the wild to have faster and stronger birds perhaps. But when it comes to a homer to actually sit there and debate to itself whether or not to use its ability, I don’t think is accurate either.

Remember humans were the ones that harvested this ability. The bird does not have the ability to think through it and debate whether to activate or deactivate its ability. They simply use what is given to them.

You race a homer against a modena who would be the fastest and fly the longest? Of course the homer is going to win. It wins because it was breed to compete. It did not win because it wanted to, it just did what it was breed to.


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## saiwa

interesting...yellow you have a point...but evrybody has their own opinion on things..some might agree and some will have something different to say but i think this will stay a mystery


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## yellowking

saiwa said:


> interesting...yellow you have a point...but evrybody has their own opinion on things..some might agree and some will have something different to say but i think this will stay a mystery


I agree. 

I have nothing against a different opinion. In fact it would be closed minded for me to think my opinion is superior!

It would be awesome to see different view points with well thought out constructive, and supportive information with it. That is all I ask.

This helps the inexperience folks gain valuable information and not have to deal with unnecessary information or worst, wrong and misleading information. It also keeps the threads healthy, clean and informative.
..................................................................................................................................................

Anyways, what is your take on this topic Sai?


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## keystonepaul

This thread has made for some interesting reading. I wondered why things got a bit testy in the middle. We fancy what we fancy so to speak and that's whey thier are som many different pigeon breeds. It's been interesting begining to learn about pigeons for sure. thanks for sharing your thoughts all. Food for thought for sure. Keystonepaul


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## Tennman1

Yep, interesting, I have enjoyed learning and thinking out these theories. yellowking brings up some interesting thoughts about their abilities, or lack thereof, as well as breeding inputsto the natural dna. I will continue to investigate and learn and wonder. 


Side note: Do any of you ever wonder about what God is thinking when we pontificate and theorize about the abilities and reasoning powers of all creatures, other than human beings, that were created and put under the dominion of man by God himself ? Not to start another discussion or hijack this subject, but I have read some things on these forums that make me wonder where some folks come from or why they believe the things they believe about animals,(all in general). Perhaps I have asked the wrong question, but I do often wonder about this and the older I get the more I change my attitude about our countries problems with the animal kingdom. OK, back to earth....... sorry.


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## Big T

Tennman1 said:


> Yep, interesting, I have enjoyed learning and thinking out these theories. yellowking brings up some interesting thoughts about their abilities, or lack thereof, as well as breeding inputsto the natural dna. I will continue to investigate and learn and wonder.
> 
> 
> Side note: Do any of you ever wonder about what God is thinking when we pontificate and theorize about the abilities and reasoning powers of all creatures, other than human beings, that were created and put under the dominion of man by God himself ? Not to start another discussion or hijack this subject, but I have read some things on these forums that make me wonder where some folks come from or why they believe the things they believe about animals,(all in general). Perhaps I have asked the wrong question, but I do often wonder about this and the older I get the more I change my attitude about our countries problems with the animal kingdom. OK, back to earth....... sorry.


Never say you are sorry for thinking, unless, of course, it is to the wife. LOL


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## Azalin

Hello,

This is my first post in this forum so hi to everybody. I am from Turkey, 36 years old, male 

This photo was taken by me. The pigeon is mine. It's a she and not a year old. It is very annoying that pigeons are tumbling. I guess there are not scientific research about it.


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## kingdizon

I have read this whole thread and have done research all night. I came to an unbiased conclusion,since i dont or have ever raised rollers....

Speaking from a strict scientific standpoint, i would think that the rolling ability is not so much of a defect but a bred mutation. The quality of the mutation can be debated,i.e. rolldowns,rollouts,etc.,because it is in fact a mutation, i would think that "perfecting" any mutation would be impossible. you are bound to have weak links in the code no matter how good great or fantastic the rollers are that breed,like any breed duds are inevitable(rolldowns)
I saw a post on here that said its a back muscle spasm which allows them to roll,which i agree with. that is the reason homers cant roll. I agree with yellowking in the sense of, They either learn to completely resist it, control it, or become extremely unstable,which basically also implies that the rollers that dont have that weak link in the mutation CAN "choose",while others might have that weak link genetic code that made them roll in the first place,and will kamikazee down to their doom.
Of course,every bird and kit is different. some may roll at certain times or whatever. Pigeons are tough and intelligent,so i would assume the good ones could resist or apply their ability at will. So i dont believe its a seizure,but more of a back or neck spasm. And though i do believe it can be fun for the pigeons to do, i dont think anyone gave any thought in wether or not the roll itself could be somewhat painful for a pigeon? Just a thought.


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## 2y4life

Yellowking was probably closest, in my opinion, to what I believe. Rollers, I don't believe, roll for fun. I do think rollers can learn to control the roll as has been seen with multi-depth rollers and then there are other rollers that cannot control the roll and will roll a singular depth no matter how high they are. 

Ex. A 40 foot roller that always rolls about 40 feet will roll 40 feet when it is 50 feet from the ground and will often bump into the kitbox or roof of the house...I don't think it is fun for the pigeon.

Same thing could be said about rolldowns, I don't think the rolldown enjoys getting hurt, breaking wings, etc so I take the whole "they roll for fun" theory out the window. 

As far as whether it is a defect or not, speaking from a natural point of view, yes it is a defect because it serves no natural purpose. But to be more correct, scientifically, the defect is basically a genetic mutation and someone saw it, like it, and started breeding for that particular trait. Just like any other animal species, the different breeds are that way because they have been selected for particular traits and have been bred for it. 

Also, I don't buy the seizure theory because most good birds have some control as is evident by by kit competitions across the globe when one can see an entire kit of 20 pigeons roll simultaneously.


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## driver_hr

I got the following statement from wikipedia about birmingham rollers.

****Fanciers who breed rollers have many theories as to why rollers do back-flips, but most of them are not based on scientific evidence. Many agree that they seem to enjoy the motion, frequently arching and "wing-clapping" just before starting.This bird has a genetic inclination to flip backwards, provided adequate training, diet, and exercise****

This suggests that rollers do enjoy rolling which i agree with after reading all of this thread an doing research before buying my own rollers. They wont roll unless their diet is perfect an they wait for the right wind condition before coming into the roll so this also suggests that they can choose when to come into a roll. So if they can choose this then they wouldnt roll if they did not enjoy it.


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## nancybird

Very nice to watch.


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## 2y4life

driver_hr said:


> I got the following statement from wikipedia about birmingham rollers.
> 
> ****Fanciers who breed rollers have many theories as to why rollers do back-flips, but most of them are not based on scientific evidence. Many agree that they seem to enjoy the motion, frequently arching and "wing-clapping" just before starting.This bird has a genetic inclination to flip backwards, provided adequate training, diet, and exercise****
> 
> This suggests that rollers do enjoy rolling which i agree with after reading all of this thread an doing research before buying my own rollers. They wont roll unless their diet is perfect an they wait for the right wind condition before coming into the roll so this also suggests that they can choose when to come into a roll. So if they can choose this then they wouldnt roll if they did not enjoy it.


No offence but you are way off base. What's your explanation for a roll down or a bumper? One that continually bumps over and over again?

Also, there diet does not have to be "perfect" for them to roll. Many rollers, if you starve them down, will become very unstable.


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## driver_hr

I am still a beginner and in the process of trap training my pigeons but that statement which i pasted was from wikipedia. An i am also a member of the forum www.rollerpigeon.com and most people on there are in agreement that rollers do enjoy to roll. An if they are a little overfed then they might not roll alltogether.


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## bigislerollers

"but that statement which i pasted was from wikipedia."
Driver_hr. You do know that anyone can post almost anything they want on wikipedia, right???


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## driver_hr

Yes but the information tends to be correct on there.


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## DAK1

They roll because they can


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## kingdizon

DAK1 said:


> They roll because they can


Best explanation yet.lol


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## hamlet

Hello. Why do rollers roll? I don't know, because every roller is different and every roller flyer is different in their feeding and flying styles. I do not like the rollers because they seem weak and unusual. The firs time i saw a roller roll was: when the red tail hawk was diving into the flying flock of ferals. This roller which I had captured days earlier was hanging out with its street pigeon friends, when something scared them up. Then I was amazed as it rolled deep just as the hawk was about to grab it. I am amazed to this day. 
Some ordinary pigeons have excellent manuvers which I enjoy watching fully. Some flip side ways. Some do a small roll like move, before they land. 
They roll because they can is funny. Thanks.


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## laughingdog

well from pure scientific evidence and my own personal observations, i believe the rolling is from two sources. first: ive personally seen two lines of my birds that roll mostly or only when about to be hit by a BOP. some of their babies roll a lot more if encouraged through breeding for, but not effected at all by what most roller breeders use from keeping starved to keeping in dark for weeks before finally suddenly letting out for competitions. others seem to roll from what appears to be excitement in general, but those show obvious signs of neurological disorders. ive seen many signs were in pigeons, other animals, and humans, were when one in a group or family of epileptics ect manifest signs of the disorder it then immediately shows also in rest of group, from general excitement or specific stimuli. studies have shown and yes some were electrodes unfortunately were hooked up to birds, showed many to perform these acts of fun from light tumbling to progressive deep rolling to roll downs/bumpers ect with maturity or advanced age to be able to be ceased with epileptic meds, where some stopped totally some partially, some not at all, and some permanently after meds were then stopped to test theories. BOPs like wolves go for the weakest prey they can assess, so when they in a mixed flock go for the roller/s only every time, or in a flock of rollers they pick off the best rollers, that should logically tell anyone who is honest to others or even themselves that nature was weeding out some bred in defect. if anyone has ever worked constantly with epileptics, they will note that some do get a pleasure look at least to actual even ejaculation when seizing. i know the public in general and all are enough against rollers of all varying types and would love to be able to bad rollers as pets, but think of how dogs are bred that differed so far from basically looking like coyote or jackel, to point some no longer can breed or birth own young or raise together, and then tell me why you cannot breed a bird that is at least better off from that. we do it because we can and want to, they amuse us, and otherwise these animals would have been food or pests and erased from the planet a long time ago. ive in person studied and kept various flying rollers including birms, and extreme parlors. i also have experience as an assistant vet though no specialty in avian medicine or behavior other than rescue and breeding from myself and others in person who were and are a lot more knowledgeable more observant than me. i have one of my roller founder stud cocks that is a terrible flier, but never gets attacked by BOPs, while my other even will get attacked repeatedly from other side of windows, cages, and any and every time i let him out to fly or walk around even around me in yard, and he is an excellent flier, and rolls out of grasp when ever attacked, so escapes, but then hides not coming home for day to week, and wont go out or come out of coop/cage anymore unless tossed and immediately tries to come back in unless blocked from doing so and chased off for exercise (i no longer toss or make him go out of loft, as he just hops and flies around till a bop attacks the window closest to him repeatedly, then he stays down low still and hidden till it s seeming safe or i cover window). the rest of rollers the BOPs will chase and try to catch and scatter, but never had homer troubles, and the BOPs seem scared when my flights mob them and seem to try to play with or are trying to test flying against (my flights will dart after, fly ahead, around, aside to and behind them, and never even lost a fledgeling to BOPs, were fledgeling rollers are targeted as soon as BOPs see them i guess and i let the weak get naturally culled).


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## kingdizon

I noticed that some racing homers wil just drop at the last second in the sky before the hawk hits, but they dont roll. I been thinking a few days that maybe rollers were bred out of a pigeon who "had a fancy way to get away from hawks". Tumblers too. Tumblers will flip once and then sort of drop in the sky wings up, like the homers. To me these are fancy, na-na-na-na-na ways of avoiding hawks.. kind of like the arial acrobatics in the cartoon movie 'Valiant"


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