# Passing Thoughts to Carl



## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Carl,

I have been thinking about this latest problem with the post "pigeons for 3" and came up with a few things to think about.

1. I beleive that we all can get along here even though we have different views about subjects.

2. I think you should think about expanding Pigeontalk to include another section for us that are in the hobby of raising pigeons but dont want to take it as far as joining a club ie. roller club, or racer club, kinda like a backyard enthusiest's board, where we can discuss all issuse related to pigeons without offending anyone in the general discussion board.

3. This would also help your site to grow into a true pigeon website that covers not only helping injured or lost birds but also promotes the hobby to different degrees.

Now dont take me wrong here Carl, I love your website, but I feel like what some of us want to talk about "pigeon hobby related" is excluded so in turn I feel excluded. I feel like I have to hold my tounge and only talk about certain things even though it all relates to the hobby. I almost feel like what I have to say is unwanted so I should just move on to another site - but this site rocks! and I would hate to leave just because I cant talk about certain things.

Is there anything that can be done to expand this site any?
Are these ideas viable to make this site include thoughts that differ from those in the general discussion board?

If anyone else has any ideas that would include us backyard enthusiests in this website please share them it can only help.

My whole thing here is that I dont like the die hard roller or racer clubs, they are too extreme for me. I dont cull - they cull like its going out of style so I feel like I dont want to be part of that. Thats why I liked this site so much, no one likes to cull - thats what drew me in. 

Any comments or Ideas about this topic please reply.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.








~Brian


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## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Hey Brian,
Don't feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am sure Carl will consider all that's been said and include your information in his decision.
I don't want to roast a pigeon to eat either (in fact it severely saddens me to think about it), but there are some who may desire to do so and there are some who may feel forced to do so because they lack of finances. I understand what you are saying. But because the web site is Carls creation it is Carl's decision.
Thank you for sharing your ideas in a thoughtful manner.
Sincerely,
Nancy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi, everybody:

Indy, the demands on Carl's time are extraordinary. But I'm sure he'll get back to you when he can.

I'm going to address your comments below in [brackets]. I will speak very openly here.

Carl,

I have been thinking about this latest problem with the post "pigeons for 3" and came up with a few things to think about.

1. I beleive that we all can get along here even though we have different views about subjects.

[For the most part we do. But that does not include tolerating any old thing somebody feels like posting. There is a measure of trust here. When that trust is violated, the offending post simply disappears. This type of control is necessary to assure the quality we're all committed to.]

2. I think you should think about expanding Pigeontalk to include another section for us that are in the hobby of raising pigeons but dont want to take it as far as joining a club ie. roller club, or racer club, kinda like a backyard enthusiest's board, where we can discuss all issuse related to pigeons without offending anyone in the general discussion board.

[Where have you been? That IS the nature of this forum. Sure, we have rehabbers--good thing too, they provide 90% of the medical info--and a few loft owners (who are always welcome), and a great many champions of the feral pigeon. We DO have a cross section of pigeon lovers. As for discussing "all issues related to pigeons", no way. No more than your Kennel Club is going to exchange "dog recipes."]

3. This would also help your site to grow into a true pigeon website that covers not only helping injured or lost birds but also promotes the hobby to different degrees.

[Indy, it is a true pigeon web site. But it is unique. It very likely cannot be all things to every one. For those seeking Jerry Springer type entertainment, I'd recommend that they shop elsewhere.]

Now dont take me wrong here Carl, I love your website, but I feel like what some of us want to talk about "pigeon hobby related" is excluded so in turn I feel excluded. I feel like I have to hold my tounge and only talk about certain things even though it all relates to the hobby. I almost feel like what I have to say is unwanted so I should just move on to another site - but this site rocks! and I would hate to leave just because I cant talk about certain things.

[Reread the "Etiquette Message" at the opening page of this forum. Tell me, Indy, what in those guidelines is unreasonable?]

Is there anything that can be done to expand this site any?

[Of course. But one has to ask themselves "why" and for "who". To do "what?"]

Are these ideas viable to make this site include thoughts that differ from those in the general discussion board?

[Indy, you are very vague in this area. Can you provide an example of these "thoughts" you wish to share? I do notice that your request comes on the shirt tails of two nonsense posts that appeared recently.]

If anyone else has any ideas that would include us backyard enthusiests in this website please share them it can only help.

[Again, that IS what mostly takes place here. You're going to need to explain yourself better...]

My whole thing here is that I dont like the die hard roller or racer clubs, they are too extreme for me. I dont cull - they cull like its going out of style so I feel like I dont want to be part of that. Thats why I liked this site so much, no one likes to cull - thats what drew me in. 

[This site advocates no particular organizations, except, perhaps, The Urban Wildlife Society, which in no way fits into your description. We do list resources...]

Any comments or Ideas about this topic please reply.

[Just did!







]

Stuck between a rock and a hard place. 
~Brian

[Seriously, Brian, I think you are inferring something that really isn't here. Pigeons.com works very well, just as it is, without people talking trash, using profanity, or inciting a mass reaction based on hearsay crap, i.e., "I saw a guy kick a pigeon! Here's his e-mail address; lets all get him!" There's no room for that here.]

[Now, if we're suddenly flooded with requests from "New Members" all supporting your concept--because it is a concept you propose, not a plan or real suggestion, and very schematic at that--it's going to look awful suspicious, isn't it?]

[A big part of the reason this site is as good as it is is the quality control. I for one don't want to read "pigeon pizza" recipes
and read or answer nonsense posts,i.e.,
"gee, golly, my pigeon hasn't moved in seventeen years, do ya think it's sick?" Like I said, Jerry Springer and his ilk have that niche filled nicely.]

[Expand the site? Sure! I'd like to see a Member's Photo Gallery updated every month. I'd like to see an amplified Emergency Care and Medical section completed. I'd like to see an expansion that does not require an R-rating. I'd support a "Live Pigeon-Chat", but I shudder to think of the crap such a forum will eventually attract.]

[We are in earnest about pigeons. We champion the Feral Pigeon here. We go out of our way--sometimes way out of our way--to help pigeons and the people that love them. I worked closely with Carl on the development of this web site. It has developed along the lines we envisioned. It's ultimately up to Carl, of course, but you certainly haven't sold me on the need for the "change" or the "expansion" that you propose (like I said, you're very vague). If it's discussion you were after, I have a hunch you will get it.]

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

I also aggree with you indie. We should be able to all get along here. Just because someone has a diffrent opinion than someone else, it doesn't mean we should resort to name calling. That's why this is a DISCUSSION board, lol. I like the idea of diffrent sections, althought someone who finds a pigeon may benifit from a breeder, or someone with medical experiance. How about something that goes with our names along with memeber, a couple of catagories?? (indoor pigeons, loft owner, rehabber, ect.) 

The only other thing I want to go into is the idea of a pigeon chat area. I think this would be great, and you're 100% correct ray, it would attract some undesierables. I work for a gaming leauge online, and 99% of our people are adults, but there is always that 1% who want to cuss and cause problems. I think this would be a great thing, if the moderators were involved. I for one would gladly volunteer to help out, and i'm sure many others would as well. And really, it wouldn't have to be 24 hours a day. I think something to consider would be chats maybe a couple of hours a day. Scheduled in advance. Even on a certin topic, i.e. breeding methods, ect. I'd tried a chat room on my personal site, but don't have the traffic to make it work, and besides that, i would have wanted members from here involved. This is a great group of people. For those of us who would like to chat. . .well, we all have email addresses posted, how about maybe a place to post our messenger id's?? Just a couple of thoughts. Dave

------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

To Indie: comments or ideas? Start your own website, if you want. There's lots of "free" forum set ups out there. Then you can share receipes to your heart's content.

To Raynjudy: I'm not taking offense here..don't get me wrong. We race birds. We don't cull. (why else do you think we have 50 pairs of birds, but only raise babies from about 20 of those pairs? lol). My husband cringes anytime he even has to "dispose" of a bird that, in spite of all our best efforts, we cannot heal, and is in pain. I do know that some racing lofts cull, and heavily...but we personally do not believe in that. We've got birds in the loft now that have never even made the "race sheet" in a race, but they still have a warm, happy home here. And, they don't race anymore....they've won our hearts, not our pocketbooks.

Just wanted to make sure people realize this...I'd hate to be judged for the actions of other race people.


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Jerry springer Ray?
Dog recipes?
Is that what you got from my post.
Not what I was refering to but .......

Anyway I will respond on monday have a great weekend..

I dont think you get were I was going Ray.

B


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Maybe I will just move on - you guys have a good day.
I wont bother you guys with my ideas anymore.

And I dont want to eat a Freaking pigeon so drop it.. I should've just kept quiet with my ideas - anyways see ya around
~Brian


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Brian,

I do hope you will reconsider leaving the group. You have been a positive influence here and have helped many of us by providing great information on topics that some of us are not familiar with.

I wish I had simply deleted the post in question rather than responding to it before others got into the fray.

Terry Whatley


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

WhiteWings:

You wrote in part, "I do know that some racing lofts cull, and heavily...but we personally do not believe in that." 

I fairly idolize those racing homers of two WORLD WARS. Carl would tell you that. I recognize that they are the antecedents of today's racing breeds. Way Cool!









I do not paint you all with one brush, believe me.

Judy has raised thirteen blue ribbon horses. There are aspects of the equestrian society that she despises. She too, does not paint them all with one brush.

Regards,

Ray

PS. Check your email, please.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Brian writes, in part, "I wont bother you guys with my ideas anymore."

Indy, you never described your ideas. And your premise of the people belonging to clubs that make up this site, is simply untrue. Some may. Most don't. All are 
welcome. 

Etiquette Rules Of Engagement apply here. House Rules apply. Bend them if you must. Break them and your post goes bye-bye.

The only thing you siezed on were my "pigeon recipe" and "Jerry Springer" analogies...

Brian, you're asking somebody to entertain ideas you haven't really described. And if and when you ever do describe them, you're asking somebody to spend time, energy, and money, to make your request a reality. Brian, it better be good. REAL good.

I was sort of kind of thinking we could change things, isn't going to fly!

As for leaving over this? Your choice. Our loss. And if I may say, dumb move.

Anyway, you got me away from this blasted remodeling for awhile!









Regards,

Ray


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## queenbee (Dec 14, 2001)

At the beginning of the site, that ettiquite thing, does it open or say more, or is it just what you see there, "Be nice" in general? THIS SITE IS WONDERFUL !!! I read it daily, & have learned so much, I only have 2 pigeons, I'm not in any club, & hardly know anything about pigeons. I've never felt unwelcome, even though I don't really have anything to offer you guys. It's been a give & take relationship, you give & I take, lol! Maybe someday I'll learn enough to help someone else. Sometimes I feel like the folks here may be thinking "Oh Lord, what dumb question is she gonna ask now?", but ya know what, they ALWAYS answer them for me! I missed the "pigeons for 3" thing, was it actually someone asking for a recipe? That's gross if it was. Sorry if I'm not supposed to bring it up, I was curious. Brian, what makes you feel that these people don't cater to a small time hobbiest? I'm sure there was some misunderstanding, cause these folks care just as much about a 1 pigeon owner as a 1,000 pigeon owner. As for clubs, I think maybe the ones that are in them enjoy conversing with others in clubs because they have things in common, but they like us too! Stick around & give 'um a chance. As for "rules", well if you don't want people smoking in your house, wouldn't you tell them? The creator of the site should have the right to set some rules. Love, Martha


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Wow!
Did I miss something?
The "3 pigeon" post got taken off before I had a chance to read it so I have no idea what happened, when or by whom. Hope nobody was too offended.

Well.....let’s see here.

Pigeons.com is a place for pigeon lovers.
That is folks.

Officially, this site is not against pigeon culling. This practice is a very important to show pigeon, racing pigeon and performing pigeon people. 

Officially, this site is against any form of murder. Killing pigeon culls instead of doing the right thing and finding a good home for the culls is not responsible. This is an unpopular thing to say in some pigeon circles but it is the truth. If you are housing, caring and feeding a flock of pigeons then you are also responsible for the young squabs. If they hatch, they are your responsibility to care for them and if you don't think they fit your "model" of the perfect pigeon...that's cool. But do not just kill them and throw their dead bodies away so you don't have to think about it any more. So what have I said here?
1. Culling is necessary in competitive pigeon lofts.
2. Killing the culls is wrong.
3. Being concerned about placing any and all healthy birds that you do not want any longer into the care of a good home (or loft), now that is the right thing to do.
That is being responsible for your birds.

Now, about changes for this site:
1. I am open to changes.
2. I am looking for a good "live chat" program. When I find the right one, you will see it here on pigeons.com (we will have a once a week discussion session. Also we will have about two or three one hour "talk-talk" sessions each week for those of you that feel the need for saying any thing and everything that comes to mind.
I know I would enjoy it.

After reading all of your posts, I am struck with the notion that we have a real nice group here, people who love pigeons and like to help other with pigeon problems. This is all I want for my pigeon site. Nothing more (except to perhaps sell some of my pigeon art in the future)(and maybe expand some of the sections still under construction).

We seem to have a few people who belong to pigeon clubs joining in at Pigeons.com. We also have some re-habbers doing their thing for pigeons. We also have people with pet pigeons and others who just love sitting in their lofts, watching their pigeons. We have a large & wide cross-section of people here who appreciate this site for being so "unfocused" on any specific area of the pigeon hobby (there are other specialty pigeon sites) and yet so "focused" upon the beauty and charm of "all pigeons". 

Regarding the "pigeon talk" post board:
I do not know why we need more than one posting area, other that "birds for sale".
We have one area for everyone. That’s how it will stay. If you have a subject you want to discuss or ponder, then post the "subject" on the board and someone will talk to you. When you come to the board, look at the subjects and see if there is anything you are interested in.

Let’s keep it simple folks, but please don't be afraid to say what is on your mind, just say it without casting rocks onto someone else. And....keep those suggestions on how to meet the needs of pigeon lovers everywhere. 

My thanks again to Ray, Marian, Terry, Dave and to all of you that help so much to make this a pigeon site for pigeon lovers.

Regards,
Carl

PS: As Ray says “Pigeons forever”.


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## robo squab (Jan 13, 2002)

Hi Everyone!

To Ray: I'm sorry to say you were a little rough and outright with indie and that apparently got him.

To Indie: I hope you return there is no anomosity towards anyone here and I am sure we can all go along.I understand that there was some responses critical of your ideas but that doesn't mean that you drop the ball and leave,just check the posts and try to convey your ideas a little more clearly so we can truly work on an advancement if needed.

And finally to all everyone in this site: 
It's really sad that a great place such as this could also be a place where we can exchange problems as supposed to help. I did read the pigeons for 3 post but didn't understand what originated it obviously something about the post was unacceptable espicially when Ray answered (harshly) to Indie. I really hope that Indie has no hate or anomosities towards any of us and such peaceful discussion does not boil over to a very angered exchange, I hope I didn't anger Ray either or otherwise I'm afraid I'll find him on my tail but, I won't turn my back and leave there is far more help than harm that could be exchanged on this site. I hope everyone is back to normal and that Indie returns.
(Aother annoying post brought to you by robo squab.)


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

I was in the neighborhood so I will post mondays reply today:

Sorry for the lengthy reply but here it goes.

Ray You took me all wrong. I was imply trying to get some ideas/feedback about another section to this site, where we could talk openly about subjects that are somewhat contraversial, I dont want to stir things up here, I dont want to be a nuisence.

My idea is not a plan of some sort and I am not affiliated with those fraudulent posts, it seems almost like you think it was me in disguise. Trust me its not.

Carl: I am sorry for stirring things up here that was not my intention. I just thought we could throw some ideas around and see what comes of it.

I realize that we dont want recipes posted here and I didnt post one, I wouldnt like that either but I did direct the person to a search if he was interested.

I shouldnt have done that.

My idea and thats all it was is to get a section apart from the general section for people that raise pigeons or people that want to raise pigeons not quite as pets but not livestock either, thats all.
Once people get their advise about curing or saving a pigeon in the general section they have a place specificaly for breeding, flying racing and what have you, not to post recipes.

I am not saying that there are members of roller or racer clubs here that I dont like - at all, I like everyone here - except for K.D.

I am not going to leave the site because of this but I did thinkk about it - I was getting attacked just for an idea.

I still feel that we can all get along and I still feel like we can talk about another section, with out anger or feelings getting hurt.

Ray I dont think anything in the etiquette messege is unreasonable at all I totaly understand that, that is not where I was going, I too dont like the jerry springer types and I am not one.

My posts did come on the shirt tails of a certain post because that post is what got me thinking "pigeons for 3" I didnt even think about answering the other post you refer to about the pigeon that hasnt moved in 7 months, thats just rediculous. 

I know that pigeons .com works well and I am glad that we have this site to visit. Now about the floods of requests for my idea from new members, what do think I would do make up a bunch of fake names and respond to my own post? do you really think that I would do that? Ray I am not like that at all and I dont appreciate that comment, when have I done anything that would lead you to say such a thing?

Terry none of this mess is your fault dont feel bad it was my mistake for replying to it.

I thank everyone here for the great advise that has been given to me over the past year or so, I am greatful that I had a place like this to come to, I am not going to turn my back on this and walk away.

I hope this clears the air a little bit and straightens people out about where I stand on this issue.

I hope that people came overlook this whole mess without any bad thoughts of me as I have no ill thoughts for anyone here, and I do truly appreciate the thoughtful posts from Dave, I think he got where I was headed. Also thank you nancy - I am sorry for offending you in the other post using gods name in vain, it wont happen again.

Peace and love to everyone here,

I am sorry again to everyone, its kinda hard for me sometimes to get whats in my head onto paper (or onto the keyboard in this case) 

I am here to stay - good, bad, or ugly I'm still here. ( although today I feel ugly







) This has truly wore on me I feel terrible, Its all that has been on my mind lately, who have I offended or who hates me now.

I'm glad that we can work through all this.
And am looking forward to a civil discussion regarding all that has been said.
~Brian


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Brian, thankyou for clearing up everything and explaining your position. 
I think we can all learn from this experience. First of all, we do not always type out what we mean. And secondly sometimes we try to second guess someone which is dangerous.

Regarding your request for additional pigeon talk topics, please read my earlier mail 
about the simple way a continous thread of 
"subject topics" allows everyone to review the "subject line", then decide if they want to open the topic and read. 
I want to keep this method. It is clean and simple.
If you want to start a "topic" about something you are interested in just type in a descriptive "subject" line. People will come. 
More news on the "live chat" thing in the future. 

Please remember our primary focus of this web site is information and discussion for people who love pigeons. 

Thanks again Brian, glad you are going to stay with us.
Regards,
Carl


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## Peapicker (Sep 18, 2000)

I agree completely about not breaking up the General Discussions into special interest areas. Many of you own a lot of pigeons. Some of you, like me, own only one or two. Some of you race, some of you breed, some of you are rehabbers, some of you keep pigeons strictly as pets, in lofts or in your homes. Many of you combine these activities. When someone comes here for help or to express an opinion, there is this vast arena of experience and caring to draw from. Why would we want to break it up into specialized, and therefore limited segments? We all care about pigeons. We all belong in one group. 
Thanks, moderators, for the great job that you do.
Marjorie


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