# Saddened and Sorrowful In Florida



## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

Hello to all. I have been reading and reading for at least an hour now and have learned much; I am so thankful for the kind hearted people of this world. 

I am sorry this is so long, hopefully you can plod through it, but the circumstances were unique and I felt it important to mention the tale from beginning to end.

Tonight my heart is saddened by the seemingly unnecessary and certainly confusing death of a pigeon baby of about 3.5 to 4 weeks old, and what to do about his remaining siblings

It all started almost a year ago. I began renting a house from a family friend. She had never taken down her ancient hurricane shutters (we live in south Florida). A law was passed that required the shutters to be removed in the off season, so I had a friend take them down. The only problem was that a pure white pigeon had taken up residence on top of these shutters. 

Not having the heart to kick the bird out of a home, I had my friend put up a wooden shelf on the stucco wall under the eve of the house so this bird could remain in exactly the same spot he had been in. I considered this bird a gift from nature and thought perhaps it had escaped from a flock of "wedding doves".

I did a little research on "white doves" (me thinking they were a cross of pigeon and dove) and quickly learned pigeons came in pure white (I had no idea). Soooo, I assumed I had a white, male pigeon. My friend bought bird seed and began to feed this lovely creature and we grew very fond of him.

About 4 months ago this pigeon brought home another pigeon just like him, only bigger and bolder. It was quite evident that my pigeon friend was a female and that she had found herself a husband. I was delighted for I often expressed my concern that our pigeon seemed to have no one. I had noted how she never really hung with the darker pigeons and I thought that she would only hook-up with other white birds like herself. She and her new husband seemed very content together on their little wooden shelf.

The two love birds built a nest on their shelf and laid two eggs. (Which I never looked at, I just knew by their behavior).

Eventually the shelf became crowded and I noticed the male sleeping alone on the window sill, separated from his wife. I asked my friend to erect another shelf, which he did, but he refused to put it next to the first shelf, not wanting to disturb mother on her eggs. He put this second shelf about 8 feet from the first, at the same height. The male immediately moved onto this shelf.

Mom was a great mom, all was well. The babies were now getting white feathers, but not totally filled in feathers.

Today I went out and one of the babies was on the ground (oh I had put a quilt all bundled up under the nesting shelf just in case a baby bird should fall). 
The mother and father were on the father's shelf. I picked the baby bird up and gently placed him back in the nest. I called my friend to tell him about this and he said he had seen the father feeding them earlier in the day. I asked him to put up a small border around the shelf so the babies would not fall out again. He said he would and I left to do some errands. 

When I came home, my friend had erected a small border around the shelf but he said that the one baby was out of the nest and dead when he arrived. I am deeply sorrowful and mourning and lightly weeping at this time for I am racked with grief for this poor little bird. 

I went out and watched the parents come home, getting ready to roost and neither one went to the nest. I waited and waited and irritated my friend with my worries, so he sent me inside to take my mind off the problem. I worried about the parents going to see the surviving baby at all since things had drastically changed. When they did not go to the nest I removed the newly erected shelf barriers my friend had installed. I came in to do something when my friend said that the mother had gone to the baby, did something like feed and then left it. When I looked the baby was alone in the nest and the mother and father were on the second shelf ignoring the baby. 

It started to get breezy and cool as darkness fell and I worried about the lone baby bird. I hastily read bird forums on the net and still did not know the right thing to do. I feared the baby bird would be cold so I went up and got him and put him in a large plastic pet carrier with a very soft, thick, plush closely woven piece of material. I went to the local pet shop (just before they closed) and purchased Kaytee Exact and baby animal feeding bottles with various nipples. I tried to feed him but he did not seem interested. I gave him some in his beak with my own beak after trying the bottle and a syringe to no avail. I had not yet read your forum. 

I put a soft, plush piece of material over his back and covered his crate with a warm quilt. He is in a room of the house that is quite warm.

My problem, the only local bird rescue place I know said they would take him, but he will live his life in an aviary with other rescued pigeons and doves for they believe the birds cannot survive in the wilderness once raised by man. I don't know what to do. Part of me says, he would always be safe in this environment and never alone but part of me says he is a wild creature that loves to fly and he should be free. I just don't know what to do.

At this point I do not know if the mother and father would pay any attention to him if I put him back outside.

I am sorry if I did something wrong. I pray I made the right choice in bringing him in so please do not get mad at me for being so ignorant and too caring about this little baby bird.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Wow. You sure have done what you could to accommodate your pigeon residents.
The mother pigeon stops laying on her babies at about 8-10 days after hatching.Typically, at that time, they lay more eggs and start incubating them.
I would put the baby back on his/her shelf in the morning and the parent will continue to feed it. Monitor it just in case. If you should need to bring the baby in permanently, you can finish raising it. It's in the baby's best interest to be taken care of by the parents.
When pigeons lay eggs or have young, it's best not to make any disturbance to the nest...move it....alter it.
As to the baby being listless, I don't know. Maybe it was full, maybe it is getting sick.
Could you post a picture?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi amillionlights, 



Once the Babys become endothermic ( able to make their own Body Heat ) the Parents usually do not spend time with the Babys unless feeding or a little preening.


Usually, one parent at a time will be on the Eggs or Babys prior to that, while the other Parent hangs out nearby...and of course they take turns sitting.


Pigeon Babys may be removed from a Nest and put back, and all is well, the parents will not reject them because of it.


If the Parents are new to parenting, they may make some errors of one kind or another, but usually these errors would have been early in the Babys lives and not be occuring in the 3 to 4 week age range...or, if they feel a 'preditor' has been getting too close, or has plans for bothering them, they may abandon the Nest, with whatever Eggs or Babys as happen to be in it.


If the parents feel a Baby is ill or becoming ill ( and the parents can be VERY sensitive to discerning this, even when anyone here on exaining it, would suppose the Baby to be healthy and vital and vigorous, the parents can often sense an illness in an early stage...) the parents will either push the ill Baby out of the Nest, or, if having already done so for one Baby, they will abandon the remaining other sibling in the Nest if they feel he also is becoming ill...and, usually, if one Baby is getting ill, both will ( not always, but usually ) though some illnesses can seem to effect only one Baby and not the other, so it depends on the illness.


It is possible that the Baby who perished, was pushed out of the Nest ledge area because the parent(s) felt he was getting ill, and, the fall may have done him in, or, the two falls, as it were, did, prior to where concpicuous symptoms of illlness would occur.


Baby Pigeons should not be fed unless they have room and are in fact ready to be fed. They can go a day or two with no issues, with no food or water, especialy if they had been well fed prior by their parents, so usually there is no urgency, or, one does best to decide the matter with regard to the Bird's state of hydration, room, poops which are happening and so on.

By four Weeks ( by two weeks even ) the Babys would be on a whole Seed diet anyway, via mom and dad, and when in human care, are in fact quite easy to guide into pecking for theselves, with a little patient working with them, which alleviates the troubles of 'feeding' otherwise, and makes things far easier for the care giver...and the Youngster.


If we feed a Baby Pigeon by causing formula we hold in our mouth, into his Beak, it can kill him by several means, and, one of the means, is that the bacteria we have in our mouths will have contaminatedthe formula, and multiply in his Crop, causing a global or systemic bacterial infection, and his immune system will not be able to cope with it. This would tend to take two days or so to do him in if her were healthy otherwise prior to that.


There are other perils also to feeding formula from our mouths to theirs which would have more immediate signs of mishap, if the Baby or Youngster were to get liquid into his Wind Pipe or Air Sacs.


Now, as regard the point of view of the Pigeon-Parents - 

Sometimes a brood does not thrive or work out...for whatever reason.


The parents are very pragmatic and accepting in these things, and they tend to ake very clean decisions about it...and, in their view of it, they will simply wait a little while, and try again without particular dischord or anxiousness.


For us of course, the loss of a little Bird we are trying to help, can be devistating...especially since we do involve ourselves in trying to help them sometimes...and or we are only hope they have if they are injured or ill or orphan.

However, there are quite a few things to helping them, which require a good deal of prior learning and experience in order to have a repitore of insight, decision, and various skills to help them.

Not having these skills and insights and prior experience ( or when such of them as one does have are not enough for the particulars of the occasion, ) is of course very distressing or emotionally hard on us.


The Parents however, elect to have an unencumbered outlook: which looks forward, makes a clean transition, and they will begin again soon to build a New Nest ( or to re-use the old one if it is acceptable to them ) and try again.


Baby Pigeons to not tend to fall from Nests, unless knocked out by preditors, high Winds maybe, or, if the Nest area is indeed very small where in their enthusiasm for feed-times with mom or dad, they can literally forget their footing and fall offthe edge, but, this would not tend to happen to Babys younger than say two weeks or three...or is ore likely to happen with Babys over three weeks of age.


If they have a couple square feet, they will manage fine...and often manage fine with half that. And ideally the surface ofthe Nest 'Ledge' would be a rough surface, able to be gripped well by the youngster's Feet in their various activities and enthusiasms.


Unless a high Wind or Preditor had interfered, I would have to guess that the fallen Baby was deemed 'ill' or deemed to be incipiently ill by his parents.


The remaining sibling, may or may not be close behind him, but, if you had fed him formula from your mouth, this in itself could ( 'could', it is not a certainty that it would, but it probably would, ) cause him to become ill whether he was already ill in any way, or not, prior.

So, there is concern then from a couple angles, as for the condition of the remaining Baby/Youngster - 'Squeaker' as it were.


If the parents are feeding him, then, one can assume all is well in their view, and, their view is a good one to respect.

If the parents have rejected the remaining Baby, then, an intervention, evaluation/diagnosis, medications, feeding proceedures and general keep would be what is needed to save him, and, all in all, this would tend to require someone of experience, or a definite and info-intense 'Crash Course', since it would involve quite a few things, some of them fairly subtle, to pull it off.


Can you examine the Nest Platform, and, see if you notice any 'yellow' chalky matter amid the poops? The would maybe look like 'yellow' Water Color Paint, 'flat' and dry looking.


And, also, can you get a few digital images of the Baby and post them here, or to one of the free sites for images and post the link to them here? Images of poops which are around the Nest also.


Thank you for being interested to help these little ones and for your friendship with their parents.


I am sorry your acquaintance with them has occasioned you to confront these troubles..!


Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thank you for caring for these pigeons. I think that you've gotten great advice so far; the baby should be fine by himself in the nest as long as it's not too cold.  We would love to see some pictures of them if you have a chance!


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*Newest News on Baby Pigeon*

Good morning everyone. 

Thank you so much for your quick replies. I put the baby bird back in his nest as recommended. Only the father was around. He was eating seeds. The baby began to chirp so I hope mom comes and finds him well. I will take some pictures. 

The baby bird poop in the pet crate this morning is dark green colored. I see no trace of yellow. I tried to look at the shelf but I am too short to see much else but the nest. When I went to the baby this morning he was wide awake and stretching his cute little angel wings. He seems fine at this point. I hope I didn't make him sick trying to feed him. I am happy now that he did refuse to eat; maybe he saved his own life. 

Thanks again, I'll keep you posted and take pictures soon.

You all are so kind and I thank God for people like you for it make me feel there is still some hope for mankind.

With much warmth and thankfulness, Gina


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*photos from 5/24/2008*

I put these pictures in the picture album but was not sure how to notify members of them. So now I am attaching to post. These are from 5/24/2008

Gina


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*photos from 5/24/2008*

Oh here is a picture of both the male and the female pigeon


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Gina,

Thank you for your concern over these birds, they are beautiful! 

I can't imagine these birds just living out in the wild, they don't look like a typical feral pigeon, not here in Florida, anyway.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Many thanks for posting the pictures, Gina. 
The parents are beautiful & that baby is adorable & very alert looking. 

If you are able to continuing getting pictures (& of course posting them ), that would be great.
It's amazing just how fast the babies grow up. 

Wishing you, & your feathered family, the very best. 
Please do keep us posted on how things are coming along. 

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Those are beautiful birds. How lucky they are to have found the right place to build their nest. Thank you so much for taking such great care of them.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

amillionlights said:


> I put these pictures in the picture album but was not sure how to notify members of them. So now I am attaching to post. These are from 5/24/2008
> 
> Gina




Hi Gina, 



What a totally charming and curious event...

Your initial 'White' Pigeon friend, brings back a "White' Mate..!


Where do did she ever find him???



Anyway, can you post some images showing the present Youngster?


Also, showing the whole 'Nest' ledge/shelf..?



Phil
l v


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*More pictures*

June 2 remaining baby and parents photos


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*another photo*

Here is another baby pic. from today June 2, Monday. I will take more of entire shelf later today. The shelf you see in today's pictures, with both the mother and father is the second shelf we erected for the father; baby is on the original shelf.

Also he is doing well since I put him back yesterday morning. Mother and father both take care of him. One thing though, he sleeps alone at night while mom and dad stay together on the second shelf. I feel sorry for the baby now that he is alone with no sibling. So sad. I notice he goes right to the edge of his shelf but never falls or jumps, so maybe the other baby truly did have something wrong with him....but it still hurts...wish I could have saved him.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for posting updated photos, Gina. 

That little one is just too cute. 

Cindy


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

They are so pretty, and tame enough to camp out near you and let you take their pics.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

OMG Gina - that is such an adorable family!! Thank goodness they did decide to roost at your house where you can keep an eye on their welfare without really interferring. They are so lucky to have you & you to have them. That baby is just precious  Thank you so very much for the photos.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

They are a beautiful family. I love the pictures.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank you for going out of your way to make sure that these birds had a safe shelter to make their nest. They are beautiful! All three of them.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2008)

they are so awesome looking , my guess is they are kings but I couldnt swear by it lol  ..its amazing that neither one has a band on it .. its so nice that they are so comfortable there with you and have made themselves at home in a place that is just wat they needed to get them thru


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*Update on baby*

The remaining baby pigeon is looking better every day. I am trying to post pictures but for some reason cannot today. I will try again later, because he/she looks soooo cute!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi amillionlights,



Good to hear..!


Couple days ago, I had two young all White Pigeons show up in the feral flock I feed every day.


Of course, I was thinking of your two and their Baby.


I am proud of these ( likely 'escaped' ) "Wedding Birds" who say to theselves, "The heck with this stupid Wedding release stuff...I am headed for the hills!"


Good for them...

It amazes me that your original Hen found an all white Mate.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

Yes, I am very happy they escaped...or their ancestors, for these are not banded. The baby is doing well but he is dirty from bird droppings...not sure why; I guess the shelf is too small and I don't go up and clean it or do anything at all to him and parents (but feed and water). I am going to try to attach picture of him today. I did put three pictures in an album if you can find the album (not sure how this works)


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

*Mom and Dad Mating Again*

Mom and dad pigeon are at it again; mating. I do not care to go through this again...too traumatic. I was directed to fake egg forums, by Feather, but my question is, what would happen if I just removed the eggs and did not replace with fake ones. Would the parents be upset? Would mom mourn the loss? I wonder.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

amillionlights said:


> Mom and dad pigeon are at it again; mating. I do not care to go through this again...too traumatic. I was directed to fake egg forums, by Feather, but my question is, what would happen if I just removed the eggs and did not replace with fake ones. Would the parents be upset? Would mom mourn the loss? I wonder.


If you just take them, Mom will lay more in about 8 to 10 days, and as long as you take the eggs, she'll continue to do that. If you want them to go elsewhere, replace the eggs and when the baby leaves, take the eggs, nest, clean the shelf and MAYBE they will move on. If however you don't mind them being there, replace all eggs and do this every time she lays. If you let her sit on the plastic/wooden eggs, she and he will sit on them about 18 to 20 days, and THEN leave the eggs and start again.


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## amillionlights (Jun 1, 2008)

Oh thank you for the egg laying behavior and information. I don't mind them being here, I just did not want to have to worry about lots of babies. Also I felt sorry for the mom devoting all of her time laying on the eggs and then caring for the kids. When she laid these eggs I thought they would never hatch. I felt so sorry her. My friend and I thought if we took the eggs we would save her the trouble of going through all of that again. And then it was so sad when the little one was out of the nest, I felt terrible and cannot bear to see that again. 
My friend and I are going to build them a better housing unit out beneath three orange trees growing in the yard. Right now under the eve of the house they don't have much room and we don't want to extend their shelves on the house and, needless to say, if their babies fell from the nest it would be on a hard concrete patio, how awful. We hope they will move into the new quarters when they are completed. 
Thank you for all the information you have given me. I will keep you posted. This site is great!
Gina


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