# Pigeon twisting head upside down, drowsy



## Prankey

Hello,

Its been more than 12 hours since having a Pigeon at the Balcony of our apartment in Bangalore. He looks healthy, first when I saw he was pooping and tried to fly off seeing me but could move much and is twisting head head significantly and sometimes run in circles, try to hit his head on the ground by twisting it completely upside down (scary when he does that). Initially when I saw him, felt his neck has got twisted somehow (though no sign of injury). He gets very anxious when I try to go close to him or feed him. I have tried to protect him by covering the place with cart, etc but fear he is sinking and feeling very cold due to continuous cold breeze. Its late night in India right now, I hope that I get some help in taking care of him.

I only see 2 poops of him both whitish green and liquid. So he definitely seems to have diarrhea and have hardly eaten or drank anything today (am not sure how much they eat and the best thing to feed them). Also, need help in understanding how to feed him as he has drank some water off spoon (hardly 2ml or so). I had mixed the water with a pinch of salt, sugar and few drops of vitamins syrup. Tried feeding small raw rice grains, but has hardly eaten any.

As read on this forum and across the Internet, I fear he has PMV or Paratyphoid. I would like to get as much guidelines as possible based on the symptoms and may seek help from a reputed veterinarian if I could (I do not know any here and need to ensure that I seek help from a specialist). My wife is a Homoeopath and hence can seek some medical advice especially on homoeo medicines.

Would really appreciate timely advice to try saving the pigeon, thank you. Also, need as much advice in feeding him the right stuff and quantity. Should I try syring without needle to try feeding? How do I feed grains? Or should I feed some semi-liquid stuff?


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## FrillbackLover

Its definatly either paratyphoid or PMV, That sounds like how my birds were when they got paratyphoid. Scary to see, with twisted heads and lack of motor control. My birds couldnt fly then too. But u should wait until someone with more expirience posts their opinion for what to do about it.


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## Skyeking

Here is an excellent post on both (pmv & paratyphoid) and the difference. Paratyphoid is treated with antibiotics, whereas with PMV, you can give supportive care, like homeopathy/nutrition.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=506222&postcount=1

*CLICK on upper right thread title to get the full thread.*


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## Prankey

Skyeking said:


> Here is an excellent post on both (pmv & paratyphoid) and the difference. Paratyphoid is treated with antibiotics, whereas with PMV, you can give supportive care, like homeopathy/nutrition.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=506222&postcount=1
> 
> *CLICK on upper right thread title to get the full thread.*


Thanks for the great link. I have shifted the pigeon inside a wooden box with soft flooring. It seems much calmer now and I have personally fed about 4 teaspoons of water mixed with salt, sugar, multivitamin syrup and a liver tonic (few drops each) in about 15ml water. He doesn't like warm water or food so am giving normal temperature content. I am checking on regularly and monitoring the symptoms.

As of now, the symptoms are as indicated for the below homeo medicine:
"Belladonna can be used for birds that are restless with convulsive movement and jerking limbs. 2 pilules twice a day."

I may shift him to a carton box instead as the wood one has raw wood which can damage the wings during the clockwise circular movement he makes ones in a while, however afraid that he may climb up and run away to some dangerous places like bathroom, under the bed, etc.

Once again thank you all for the great support. Never thought there would be a dedicated forum for Pigeon care. Keep up the good work.


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## Charis

If you are seeing bright green poop, it could be the bird isn't eating enough on his own and may need to be hand fed. 

__________________


You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the pigeon is eating on his own.


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## nycpigeonlady

Thank you for rescuing this poor pigeon - you are obviously a very kind and caring person. 

He'll benefit from some direct heat under him- a heating pad set on low, or a cloth wrapped hot water bottle. 

You can use fresh peas if frozen are not available in India. You can also use dried dog food, which you can soak in water and when it expands, you can feed it to the pigeon in the same way, but the peas are easier to feed. Both peas and soaked dog food contain enough moisture to keep the bird hydrated, although birds with PMV tend to drink and eliminate lot of water because the virus affects the kidneys.

Can you examine the bird's leg and wing joints and see if you can feel any swelling in any of them. I know it can be hard to say what's normal if you've never done this, but at least check if they feel the same on each side. If the bird has parathyphoid, you'll need to start antibiotics as soon as possible. Baytril (enrofloxacin) - same as human ciprofloxacin is the best one for that. 

It's good you've changed the box. A padded box /cage would be best to avoid the bird hurting itself. A narrow water dish - no more that 2" across will also reduce the risk of him accidentally drowning since he has poor motor control.


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## Prankey

Thanks everyone for the kind advice. Pigeon is reasonably safe now and it seems to be a rather minor infection of PMV instead of paratyphoid. I still can't say for sure if its not paratyphoid. Let me know more on how to detect.

I have taken few videos of the poop and him inside the wooden box (shifted back again today as the wild movements have stopped now and he is reasonably comfortable and less anxious). He comes easily on my hands and is very comfortable in my presence and moves in circles whenever he sees me (seems happy sign to me). I feed raw rice by hand and he is able to pick it well and day before ate about 2 to 3 fistful of rice. I do have frozen peas but am bit skeptical if I can force feed him due to the size of peas. But as the pigeon is no more drowsy or feeling weak (except for the circular movement and twisted head - he usually keep it down but can bring it up to stab the crop in my hand or a bowl). He do drink atleast 15 to 20ml of water every day from my hand and might be drinking more otherwise. I try to hold him and roam covering him with both my hands while he usually keep the face down (I sometimes turn him upside down so the head is on top to regularize blood circulation).

His one eye had inflammation the second day I saw. Other than that I dint notice any other inflammation and his legs seems normally swollen. I will try to take a video and upload for the experts to analyze and suggest further course. If its paratyphoid, I may need more directions to evaluate as he seems reasonably healthy now and seems recovering fast with regular feeding of water mixed with salt, sugar, multivitamin and herbal lever syrup (of my daughter). As he is happy eating raw rice, I am currently giving him accordingly as he can eat on his own as well though gets heavy tremors at its head while feeding (I try to shield his head by forming a semi-sphere of my hand so he do not bang the head on a hard surface). Sometimes when he tremors heavily while I am around, I pick him up and try to calm him down (he feels very comfortable at my hands and relaxes easily).

Video of the poop (water on the edges, then white discharge and dark greenish discharge at the center):
http://youtu.be/726zad43s-4

Pigeon relaxed inside the box, watching me taking the video with flash switched on (not hurting his eyes):
http://youtu.be/pfYAyA8UsMY
http://youtu.be/K2xr-L3zcMc

I have kept him on top of a thick bunch of agricultural straw and a cotton mat on top. As Straw is known to be warm and I cover the top of the box with another wooden slab in the night (keeping sufficient breathing space). Its relatively warm during the day so don't think he needs heating. I do mildly blow him dry if he wets himself with water. I clean the mat and food containers every day.

Let me know if I should still try feeding peas instead of raw rice and water. The bowl currently used for water seems wider than 2 inches so will try to replace with another container (my wife is skeptical about using multiple containers fearing infection to my daughter).


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## Charis

The video of the dropping looked more like infection or starvation than a PMV dropping.
Pigeons need protein which he can get from the peas but not form the rice and so do feed the peas or offer dried peas as he is eating on his own, he may eat them his own. You can also add raw chopped peanuts, if you can get them there, dried lentils, small pop corn, safflower and small sunflower seed.
There is no need for your wife to worry about your daughter catching an infection form the pigeons but do practice proper hygiene by washing your hands with warm soapy water after handling the pigeon.
I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.


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## nycpigeonlady

I couldn't really see very well from the video, but is the pigeon balding around the mouth? You can open his mouth and look inside as well as down his throat with a flashlight to see if everything is uniformly pink, or if there are any yellow or white nodules or patches. Those would indicate canker, and although unrelated to the neurological symptoms, could be a secondary infection that needs to be treated. 

The droppings don't look like typical PMV droppings to me either. Because PMV affects the kidneys and consequently the pigeons drink quite a lot, PMV droppings often appear like big puddles of rice water with thin snake-like broken up bits of fecal matter. This dropping does look more like enteritis. And if it is due to starvation it should change very soon, now that the pigeon is eating. Of course the pigeon can have PMV as well as an infection. Those with PMV have a very hard time foraging for food and eating it when they find it, so the starvation opens them up to all sorts of infections as a result. Since you have no way to tell what it is - starting antibiotics seems like the reasonable, safe thing to do.


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## Prankey

He/She (how to detect their gender?) had the right limb inflamed yesterday. I held it upside down for about an hour to reduce it and it did help reducing it. There is a possibility of starvation though he is eating rice well but not drinking a lot of water other than spilling over and resting its head on it (keeps doing it and while I can't say its balding but its head hair has become like applied gel because of this repeated behavior). Seems it has burning sensation due to which it feels comfortable around water. Sometimes it goes and rest inside the water container or rest its head on it after spilling the water around.

Please help me understand how to force feed the peas, I will do that and will get the antibiotic (I believe I need tablets, please confirm). Yesterday I mixed a small quantity of crushed paracetamol (5 to 10 mg) to reduce the inflammation and pain due to it. Is that advisable? I had stopped adding salt and sugar day before yesterday as liquid droppings had reduced. And the dropping did have dark broken snake like center dropping. I had taken the video and photos after about half an hour so it got bit mixed up.

Will try looking through the mouth to see any yellow formation.


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## nycpigeonlady

Paracetamol is not good for birds. Metacam which is available in India is a great ant-inflammatory and pain reliever, but you must be very careful with the dose and be sure the bird is hydrated. Joint inflammation points to paratyphoid (salmonellosis), so please get the antibiotic (Baytril/enrofloxacin/ciproflaxacin) ASAP and come back for dosing instructions for all meds. Pills are easier to administer than liquid, but get whatever you can find the fastest. Could you elaborate a bit on the inflamed limb - what did you find, etc. Also, I wouldn't hold the bird upside down. 

Look at Charis' hand feeding instructions from June 6.


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## Prankey

Entire right feet was inflamed, however after then, its gone and both legs have similar characteristics and seems normal. Today morning, it had again dropped all the water and was putting its head on it in sort of cooling of manner. Have taken a video, there were fresh droppings and one of them was quite large with green center ones and a lot of water. Is it normal for them to drop big loads in the morning?

http://youtu.be/ERuKse0x_hg

I will try capturing video of its legs, you may see some on this video. It was a mess with small flies around it in the morning and droppings with water splattered across with some even at its head, back and wings.

I have tried feeding as per Charis' recommendation, however it keeps shrugging off when I tried to push the piece of peanut soaked in warm water or sprouted "mung" bean (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mung_bean for information). In India, most of the beans and grams are quite protein rich, should we still try peas only? I have been trying to feed mung and peanuts but it only eats rice and nothing else.

In India, we usually feed raw rice only to pigeons and that seems to be the reason it is only interested in eating raw rice and nothing else.


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## Skyeking

Charis said:


> I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.


*THIS, the bird needs antibiotics and flagyl asap.*


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## nycpigeonlady

Hi Prankey, 
Just watched the video - the pigeon has a very real risk of drowning, so I'd take the large bowl of water out of the box. It doesn't take much for a bird in this state to aspirate even with a small amount of water. If you feed the peas, they have enough moisture to keep him hydrated and you can also offer him water throughout the day if he wants more.


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## Prankey

Skyeking said:


> *THIS, the bird needs antibiotics and flagyl asap.*


Let me know what needs to be given and how much should I buy, will go get it ASAP. I read if he has PMV, it may get aggravated and hence was holding back.



nycpigeonlady said:


> Hi Prankey,
> Just watched the video - the pigeon has a very real risk of drowning, so I'd take the large bowl of water out of the box. It doesn't take much for a bird in this state to aspirate even with a small amount of water. If you feed the peas, they have enough moisture to keep him hydrated and you can also offer him water throughout the day if he wants more.


That was a temporary arrangement as I keep shifting it with utensils to keep it hygienic. I also do sponging using a soft cotton cloth and warm water with few drops of Dettol to keep other infections away. That bowl had water at the bottom about one mm only so felt its safe for it. Also the Pigeon has strong reflexes. Right now I am using a deep bowl for water but it seems too deep for him/her to drink without spilling it. Why does it keep going around water? Today morning there was a big poop inside the transparent deeper water bowl.

Its important for me to know how much of drugs/antibiotics are needed so I could buy them accordingly and try feeding with water.


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## Charis

How about you contact this member. He has access to medications.

http://godsownloft.webs.com/


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## nycpigeonlady

Prankey said:


> That bowl had water at the bottom about one mm only so felt its safe for it. Also the Pigeon has strong reflexes. Right now I am using a deep bowl for water but it seems too deep for him/her to drink without spilling it.
> 
> Its important for me to know how much of drugs/antibiotics are needed so I could buy them accordingly and try feeding with water.


Pigeons unlike other birds suck the water up, (like drinking with a straw) so 1mm of water wouldn't be enough for him to drink from anyway. 

Flagy (Metronidazole) is a human as well as veterinary med. The human pills come in 200mg, 250mg or 500mg. For a pigeon, around 50mg per day is needed and some recommend lower. Usually 14 days is the maximum duration of treatment, but often shorter. So if getting human pills you'll only need a few (with a couple of spares to cover in case of mishaps). Same with the antibiotic - there's a human and animal version. A few pills of the human version will do the job, while for the veterinary - there are liquid and pills. What's available to you? There's also another human medication called Nystatin against yeast overgrowth - that is always good to give with antibiotics which make pigeons susceptible to yeast while they are on them.

Also, you don't want to give the medications in the water because you cannot dose exactly. Popping pills is very easy, so I usually try to go with pills instead of liquid if I have a choice.


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## Jay3

Prankey said:


> Entire right feet was inflamed, however after then, its gone and both legs have similar characteristics and seems normal. Today morning, it had again dropped all the water and was putting its head on it in sort of cooling of manner. Have taken a video, there were fresh droppings and one of them was quite large with green center ones and a lot of water. Is it normal for them to drop big loads in the morning?
> 
> http://youtu.be/ERuKse0x_hg
> 
> I will try capturing video of its legs, you may see some on this video. It was a mess with small flies around it in the morning and droppings with water splattered across with some even at its head, back and wings.
> 
> *I have tried feeding as per Charis' recommendation, however it keeps shrugging off when I tried to push the piece of peanut soaked in warm water or sprouted "mung" bean (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mung_bean for information)*. In India, most of the beans and grams are quite protein rich, should we still try peas only? I have been trying to feed mung and *peanuts* but it only eats rice and nothing else.
> 
> In India, we usually feed raw rice only to pigeons and that seems to be the reason it is only interested in eating raw rice and nothing else.




Charis didn't say to feed him peanuts. She said peas. And rice isn't nutritional enough. It's easy to feed the peas if you hold the bird on your lap and against your body, and open his beak. Put the pea way to the back of his throat and let him close his beak and swallow. If you put it way to the back of his tongue, he will swallow it. If he throws it out, then you aren't putting it back far enough.


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## Prankey

Charis said:


> The video of the dropping looked more like infection or starvation than a PMV dropping.
> Pigeons need protein which he can get from the peas but not form the rice and so do feed the peas or offer dried peas as he is eating on his own, he may eat them his own. You can also add raw chopped *peanuts*, if you can get them there, dried lentils, small pop corn, safflower and small sunflower seed.
> There is no need for your wife to worry about your daughter catching an infection form the pigeons but do practice proper hygiene by washing your hands with warm soapy water after handling the pigeon.
> I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.





Jay3 said:


> Charis didn't say to feed him peanuts. She said peas. And rice isn't nutritional enough. It's easy to feed the peas if you hold the bird on your lap and against your body, and open his beak. Put the pea way to the back of his throat and let him close his beak and swallow. If you put it way to the back of his tongue, he will swallow it. If he throws it out, then you aren't putting it back far enough.


Guess you dint follow the above post , she did.

I have found a bite wound just above its left leg (beneath the wing). Its dried and hard on top but inside still seems to be healing. I do not see major damage to its body from it other than that wound seems about a centimeter deep. I have a first aid cream which I have applied to it, let me know if I should do something else and if the twisting head is due to the wound and not an infection (I did check if there is another wound or broken bone around the neck, but dint find anything unusual). Seems it was bitten the day we found it (never saw any blood though).

Video - http://youtu.be/gPAlWvuKi-s

I can get human medication and cut the pills and will try to feed as you advice, seems I was not trying well.

Sprouted beans have heavy quantity of water and protein and are very soft to swallow, should I try them?


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## Andrew Walsh loft

Charis said:


> If you are seeing bright green poop, it could be the bird isn't eating enough on his own and may need to be hand fed.
> 
> __________________
> 
> 
> You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
> You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the pigeon is eating on his own.


it could be that or most likely PMV


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## Charis

Sure...PMV is a possibility...so is salmonellosis, E.Coli, Streptoccus among others.

Is the pigeon eating on his own now?


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## Jay3

Prankey said:


> *Guess you dint follow the above post , she did.*
> 
> You're right ..........she did. I missed that. But only a small amount of peanuts, to mix with the other things. He should be getting more peas if you have them.


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## Quazar

Andrew Walsh loft said:


> it could be that or most likely PMV


As well as what Charis has already mentioned,
The nervous symptoms can also be caused by injury to the base of the neck or back (even a knock, not necessarily visible), also these symptoms can occur when the bird is in shock, under severe stress, or from a severe lack of food & water.
Although caution needs to be taken to keep him isolated from other birds in case it is PMV, The symptoms alone should not be taken as an assumption that it is likely to be PMV, only a possibility.


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## Prankey

Charis said:


> Sure...PMV is a possibility...so is salmonellosis, E.Coli, Streptoccus among others.
> 
> Is the pigeon eating on his own now?


He has always been. I used to feed it personally to ensure that he/she gets enough under my supervision, otherwise I always find it eating on its own every few minutes.

And the Poop has never been bright green (always dark). Yesterday when I was investigating the wound (what should I do about it?), it did it twice as I had given about 10ml of water (it was dark green broken snake like with large amount of water, hardly any white stuff).

I am trying to contact the site owner you recommended. Please suggest once again if I should get those drugs today and start feeding (even if the indications are of PMV). Every day its getting healthier otherwise and seems to have eaten little bit of peanuts and good amount of sprouted beans soaked in good amount of water. I have noticed that if I add vitamins, salt and sugar, Pigeon is relatively healthy and happy looking otherwise it looks gloomy. Should I also feed it Calcium?


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## Prankey

Quazar said:


> As well as what Charis has already mentioned,
> The nervous symptoms can also be caused by injury to the base of the neck or back (even a knock, not necessarily visible), also these symptoms can occur when the bird is in shock, under severe stress, or from a severe lack of food & water.
> Although caution needs to be taken to keep him isolated from other birds in case it is PMV, The symptoms alone should not be taken as an assumption that it is likely to be PMV, only a possibility.


Lack of food and water is ruled out as it eats and drink reasonably. How do we investigate injury to neck or back? I did investigate neck yesterday, but when I was trying to investigate its shoulder or back, it was getting restless. I will do more investigation and let you know.


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## Charis

I would like you to start by giving enrofloxin. It would help if you can weigh the pigeon but if you can't weigh him we'll figure out a dose. You will need to treat the pigeon for 10 days.


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## Quazar

Prankey said:


> Lack of food and water is ruled out as it eats and drink reasonably. How do we investigate injury to neck or back? I did investigate neck yesterday, but when I was trying to investigate its shoulder or back, it was getting restless. I will do more investigation and let you know.


That to me would indicate a distinct possibility that there may be an injury or discomfort there, although you may not actually see or feel anything prominant.
The leg wound may also have allowed infection and bacteria to set in which may well have spread causing pain/damage on the nerves.
I'd certainly follow Charis's advice with the meds & see how things go, but bear in mind it may take longer than the treatment for the bird to regain nervous control and even then it may not be 100%


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## Charis

I'm worried about the wounds that were found and infection setting in.


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## Quazar

Charis said:


> I'm worried about the wounds that were found and infection setting in.


Yep, especially with the flys around also


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## Prankey

Quazar said:


> Yep, especially with the flys around also


Those are not really flies, they are those small flies which sometimes come on top of open food (don't exactly know the English names - tiny ones). Yesterday morning I kept it at the Sun for sometime so it feels warm and the flies go away while controlling the moisture and dampness around it.

I will bring the antibiotic today (will try bringing a single tablet of 500mg or so and will cut approximate pieces).

Also, while it continue to eat rice, I have successfully fed about 15 peas today. Monitoring if it digest it well so will feed more. How many times I need to feed 30 to 50 units?


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## Charis

The pigeon will need no more than 10mg so cutting the 500mg pill into pieces will be quite a challenge.
The bird needs to be fed every time his crop empties.


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## Prankey

Charis said:


> The pigeon will need no more than 10mg so cutting the 500mg pill into pieces will be quite a challenge.
> The bird needs to be fed every time his crop empties.


If it is self feeding, any way to know how much to feed? I tried feeding more peas but it only took one and was restricting others heavily by shaking its head vigorously (could not feed more, how to hold it, open the beak and push at the same time?).


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## Charis

Try mixing the other things, into the rice. If he's eating enough on his own, there will be plenty of poop with some solid material in it.
If you are going to hand feed...you need to put the pea at the back of the mouth, over the throat. If you just put it in the center of the mouth, most likely he will spit it out.


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## Prankey

Charis said:


> Try mixing the other things, into the rice. If he's eating enough on his own, there will be plenty of poop with some solid material in it.
> If you are going to hand feed...you need to put the pea at the back of the mouth, over the throat. If you just put it in the center of the mouth, most likely he will spit it out.


Yes the poop has enough solid material at the center. And yes thats what I did. But its tough to open the beak and push the pea till the end of it, it does swallow if I am able to do but before that it shakes its head vigorously and drops the nut. I try holding its head against my tummy but its still difficult. Will keep trying till I learn to do it better.


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## Quazar

Prankey said:


> But its tough to open the beak and than push the pea till the end of it, it does swallow if I am able to do but before that it shakes its head vigorously and drops the nut. I try holding its head against my tummy but its still difficult. Will keep trying till I learn to do it better.


If you wrap the bird in a towel with its legs held back against its tail & only its head poking out of the towel, this will limit any body struggling.
Once you have done this, gently grip the bird between your knees (beak facing upwards and towards you) giving you 2 free hands.
Take a pea in your left hand, Now, watching & talking to the bird the whole time, gently curl your right hand around its neck to support it, and place your thumb of that same hand on the tip of its beak.
Tilt its head back slightly, and using your left hand holding the pea, gently insert your nail between upper & lower beak till it is far enough open to take the pea. Rotate and straighten your thumb of the right hand thats on the beak so that both upper & lower points of the beak press gently into your thumb to hold it open. Then simply insert the pea. 
If your fingers of the rigt hand around the neck are firm enough to hold and support it, it cant struggle as much.
Once you have done this several times, the bird tends to accept it without struggle.
(first time is always the hardest - make sure you have the pea in your hand from the start of the procedure. If you dont, you have to look away to pick up the pea & the bird will sense this and jerk its beak away from your thumb)


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## Prankey

Quazar said:


> If you wrap the bird in a towel with its legs held back against its tail & only its head poking out of the towel, this will limit any body struggling.
> Once you have done this, gently grip the bird between your knees (beak facing upwards and towards you) giving you 2 free hands.
> Take a pea in your left hand, Now, watching & talking to the bird the whole time, gently curl your right hand around its neck to support it, and place your thumb of that same hand on the tip of its beak.
> Tilt its head back slightly, and using your left hand holding the pea, gently insert your nail between upper & lower beak till it is far enough open to take the pea. Rotate and straighten your thumb of the right hand thats on the beak so that both upper & lower points of the beak press gently into your thumb to hold it open. Then simply insert the pea.
> If your fingers of the rigt hand around the neck are firm enough to hold and support it, it cant struggle as much.
> Once you have done this several times, the bird tends to accept it without struggle.
> (first time is always the hardest - make sure you have the pea in your hand from the start of the procedure. If you dont, you have to look away to pick up the pea & the bird will sense this and jerk its beak away from your thumb)


This is a good idea to wrap the bird in towel to restrict its motion. Will try it next time. I was able to feed it 50 soaked peas about an hour back and monitoring it. If it is able to digest them all without an issue, I will keep doing it after wrapping it to keep both my hands free to feed. Its poop is more solid today with green droppings. It was feeling much better and energetic in the morning and pooped atleast 4 times while playfully roaming across the queen sized bed. Is it due to the peas?


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## Prankey

Charis said:


> The video of the dropping looked more like infection or starvation than a PMV dropping.
> Pigeons need protein which he can get from the peas but not form the rice and so do feed the peas or offer dried peas as he is eating on his own, he may eat them his own. You can also add raw chopped peanuts, if you can get them there, dried lentils, small pop corn, safflower and small sunflower seed.
> There is no need for your wife to worry about your daughter catching an infection form the pigeons but do practice proper hygiene by washing your hands with warm soapy water after handling the pigeon.
> I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.


I haven't been able to get enrofloxin till date, however am feeding Flagyl by chipping a 400mg pill. Yesterday morning when I fed it, it pooped yellowish liquid 3 to 4 times while I was feeding peas (fed more than 30 soaked in warm water and vitamins, realized I should have fed the medicine after the feeding). Please suggest how to feed it and if there is an alternative to enrofloxin while I continue to search (keeping very busy these days). Pigeon is doing well otherwise, best part is his wound got completely filled with hard tissues after 2 days of a single application of first aid and now is nicely hard with very remote possibility of any infection there.

It keeps shivering lightly most of the day, how do I keep it warm if I don't have a heating pad?


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## nycpigeonlady

If the shivering is accompanied by an alert stance, then he's probably just trembling because of nervousness when he sees you - they don't particularly like to be caught and medicated. But if he's shivering and being fluffed up and inactive - that's very bad news. He'll need to be put on heat: if you can't get a heating pad (the best thing really and easiest for you because it provides constant heat), than you can use a hot water bottle that you cover with a towel. You'll need to change the water every few hours to maintain the temperature. In the past I've also used a brick that was heated in the oven, wrapped in cloth. Again you'll need to reheat as needed, as it will only radiate heat for a few hours. I hope it's not the latter, but if it is - getting him on antibiotics NOW would be crucial - you've had him for two weeks. When you said that you fed him 30 peas the other day, that is per meal and not per day, right? He needs 100 peas per day.


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## Prankey

nycpigeonlady said:


> If the shivering is accompanied by an alert stance, then he's probably just trembling because of nervousness when he sees you - they don't particularly like to be caught and medicated. But if he's shivering and being fluffed up and inactive - that's very bad news. He'll need to be put on heat: if you can't get a heating pad (the best thing really and easiest for you because it provides constant heat), than you can use a hot water bottle that you cover with a towel. You'll need to change the water every few hours to maintain the temperature. In the past I've also used a brick that was heated in the oven, wrapped in cloth. Again you'll need to reheat as needed, as it will only radiate heat for a few hours. I hope it's not the latter, but if it is - getting him on antibiotics NOW would be crucial - you've had him for two weeks. When you said that you fed him 30 peas the other day, that is per meal and not per day, right? He needs 100 peas per day.


I still could not find Baytril (enrofloxacin), however have got human ciprofloxacin and feeding small quantity of around 10mg twice a day since last 4 or 5 days. I am also giving Flagyl since past couple of weeks. Still can't get other medicines.

Pigeon is stable and healthy other than the twisting neck and circular/backward movements.

And yes, 30 to 50 (I have seen 50 seems to be too much for it) is a one time dose and I usually used to feed twice a day till about 3 days back when the frozen peas got exhausted. I am feeding other grams and some peanuts soaked in water till tomorrow when I am trying to get more frozen peas.

It has always been eating rice in addition to these forced feedings and has become quite ferocious and growls (I am glad I could hear some sound from it since past 3 days). It tries to bite my hand and tries to stab them but doesn't really hurt me and seems to be showing aggression to express irritation out of forced feeding  Fluffiness is not there unless it is exposed to cool breeze or if I leave it at the floor while replacing the paper sheets I have been putting beneath it to replace several times through the days. So I believe its tremors instead of shivering as you suggested.

I would appreciate more help while I see definitive improvement each day but they are slow and steady so I am looking for options for accelerated recovery.


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## Quazar

Seems like youre doing well so far.
Unfortunately, there is no accellerated recovery process.
It takes time and a lot of patience. 
The fact that the bird is doing well on other counts is a good sign, but any damage to nerves can take a surprisingly long time to heal, and sometimes sadly it can be permanent which means the bird cannot be released.
What can help, is keeping the bird in a quiet and dim enviroment, so that it is not startled by sudden noise or bright light, but still allow it to see everything that is going on around it.
Its good that it is "fighting" your hand, that means it has determined its own territory & is not affraid of you.
When changing its cage, try to coax it out on its own rather than have to force it (i know that is not always possible) as the less stress the better chance the nerves will have to repair.


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## Prankey

How long should I feed Ciprofloxacin and Flagyl? What exactly Flagyl do? Pigeon is very slowly recovering (tries flying by opening and waving the wings, can't fly but may be good for practice). Neck is slightly better but it still like keeping it upside down or tilted while sleeping.

Appetite has significantly improved and now it can easily swallow more than 50 peas (it opens the beak and I feed 3 to 4 one after another for it to slightly chew and swallow). It has become very docile and can stay on my hand or tummy for hours and stays completely relaxed (sleeps at times) while its still bit anxious when on its own in the carton. I try to keep it clean but it rubs its head on poop every few hours after cleaning the place and her. Have to do this 3 to 4 times to keep her reasonably clean. No issue of flies or any other injury and poops are okay with some water at times and like a paste of digested peas at most of the other times.


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## Prankey

I have stopped giving Antibiotics since past 1 week now. Let me know if I should resume or continue with regular dose of Multivitamin, Calcium, Flagyl, etc. Its still having the symptoms though condition is stable as before.


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## Prankey

Anyone? I am planning to take it to a reputed vet center as I need guidance. Also, trying to source Baytril (enrofloxacin) as ciprofloxacin seemed to have helped him and now I again see inflammation on its right leg and mild balding around the eyes so will do everything to improve its health from going back to how I found it. 

If someone could advice on something, I would really appreciate.

Thanks.


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## pigeonlover2k11

my pigeon is just like that at the moment.pigeon pmv...annoying virus


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## kunju

Hi

I felt sad seeing your pigeon's video, of him/her ducking his head repeatedly in water. I was also in Bangalore last year and rescued a pigeon with the exact symptoms, in frazer town. 
I went through the same phases as you, gave him antibiotics, and the circling and neck twisting continued. First of all , I wish to tell you some things:
--please dont allow him to duck in DEEP water. He keeps ducking because stress causes him to twist his neck uncontrollably, not because he wants to cool himself. My pigeon also did this. But as his control improved, he now drinks without wetting his head. Till the time your pigeon improves, just provide him say 2 cm depth of water to drink.
---the reason why he bumps into the water dish might be that he has no room to walk about. Though he is right now is a neurologically compromised state, he still needs to walk and see and explore. Try making some enclosure in one corner of a room. I had converted the puja room in our house into the pigeon room. Right now I put him in the balcony during the day (under a large mosquito net). 
---Bangalore cold is really substantial. Please keep him indoors at night.
---My pigeon did not eat peas. First of all, it is not common food for the indian pigeon. In my opinion, there is no need to worry that he is having only rice and no peas. You can give him the puffed channa dal we use for making chutney( it is a favorite of pigeons), or ragi (looks like sesame but browner), bajra, jowar , wheat, rice, moong dal (no need to sprout) etc. When you watch him eat, you will understand his preferences. They also get tired of one food very fast so you have to rotate.

Hope I am not too late with these suggestions.Please keep updating


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## Prankey

kunju said:


> Hi
> 
> I felt sad seeing your pigeon's video, of him/her ducking his head repeatedly in water. I was also in Bangalore last year and rescued a pigeon with the exact symptoms, in frazer town.
> I went through the same phases as you, gave him antibiotics, and the circling and neck twisting continued. First of all , I wish to tell you some things:
> --please dont allow him to duck in DEEP water. He keeps ducking because stress causes him to twist his neck uncontrollably, not because he wants to cool himself. My pigeon also did this. But as his control improved, he now drinks without wetting his head. Till the time your pigeon improves, just provide him say 2 cm depth of water to drink.
> ---the reason why he bumps into the water dish might be that he has no room to walk about. Though he is right now is a neurologically compromised state, he still needs to walk and see and explore. Try making some enclosure in one corner of a room. I had converted the puja room in our house into the pigeon room. Right now I put him in the balcony during the day (under a large mosquito net).
> ---Bangalore cold is really substantial. Please keep him indoors at night.
> ---My pigeon did not eat peas. First of all, it is not common food for the indian pigeon. In my opinion, there is no need to worry that he is having only rice and no peas. You can give him the puffed channa dal we use for making chutney( it is a favorite of pigeons), or ragi (looks like sesame but browner), bajra, jowar , wheat, rice, moong dal (no need to sprout) etc. When you watch him eat, you will understand his preferences. They also get tired of one food very fast so you have to rotate.
> 
> Hope I am not too late with these suggestions.Please keep updating


Glad to see your reply buddy. You are not late but I am trying to ensure steady recovery which seems to have stalled and may be deteriorating after stopping the antibiotics. Which once did you give and where did you get them from? I stay at JP Nagar so would really appreciate your help in locating the right store as I haven't been able to find one which has the appropriate medicines. I called a Vet from HSR Layout and he suggested to give "Veral drops". Seems they are Vitamin B complex drops. Traveling seems to be an issue for me as I am usually unavailable during the day and my work starts from evening 

Did your pigeon recover? How long did it take? What medicines did you give. I try to feed it different stuff, but on its own, it only like dry, raw rice though it has developed the taste for peas now and swallows multiple at ones at times.

I leave it out or keep it with me for hours when I get time, but its not regular and I feel bad that I do not give enough time few days of the week.

Unfortunately I can not use my pooja room to keep him as its regularly used by my family and currently there is no plausible option to shift the place of worship and idols.

Would really appreciate your inputs so I could work accordingly. My mom has suggested to feed Bajra and trying to find it at Bangalore. I do feed different grains at times, but am more concerned with the water intake so keep switching back to Peas as that gives it ample water intake as it hardly drinks on its own even when I try to put the container to its beak. Keeping water with it almost always guarantee spilling and it keeps putting its head around it and stays that way for a long time. I am currently using a cap of Gillette Gel to feed as its diameter is around 1" but probably because of that it is almost never able to drink on its own as it keep spilling before putting its neck in.


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## kunju

I had noticed a decline in Rudy's condition a few days after I rescued him. I think this must have been because when I got him, he was in that fear-or-flight stage, which disappeared as he settled in, and no longer tried to hide his sickness.
I had given Cipro to Rudy for 10 days (25 mg per day in the form of 2 doses, day and night). After a month, since his neurological conditions were persisting, I tried the amoxcyllin also for another ten days. 
What I have observed for my pigeon is that when I got him, he was depressed and did a lot of mindless circling. These neurological symptoms have definitely improved over time. Today he walks with his head upright for at least half the time, while earlier he had no control over his head movement. He circles far less than before, though the head ducking continues.
I had also noticed a fluid-filled bump on his head where his hair had fallen out. Since I got him from children who probably pelted stones to bring him down, I doubt this must have caused the brain damage (or it could be PMV). This bump is almost dried now.

If your bird has a leg infection, this could be causing the symptoms (others in this site can give you better opinion on this.) Did you continue the Cipro for 10 days??It is essential to continue for 10 days to get some improvement.

You will get 'pottu kadala'- the dal used to make chutney at all general stores. If you ask around in shops, you will also get jowar , bajra, ragi. My Rudy likes Ragi and the chutney dal a lot. He also likes the raw corn (makkai) you get in plenty in Bangalore. I am not sure whether your pigeon will have enough coordination to eat those big pieces of corn right away. Maybe you could cut each kernel into smaller pieces and give him. However, if he is eating peas, probably he can eat corn as well ...please try it.

In the earlier days, Rudy would not drink water just like yours. Or rather I hardly SAW him drinking. Since they dip their beaks only for a fraction of a second, it could also be that we are missing seeing them drinking. Just to make sure, I had used a dropper to give him around 6 ml of water , thrice a day(total 18 ml). The posts on this site say that a pigeon needs much more, but if you are giving peas, he will get some good amount from the peas as well. Anyway it was quite a struggle to make him drink. And you have to be extra careful to align the dropper such that the water goes down his throat,not up along his nose (you have to tilt his head accordingly). Also take care that water does not spill into his nostrils.
I know it is tough to take care of your pigeon when you are working and all, but if you can get him a bigger area to walk about, and strew colourful things for him to peck at and explore, it will keep his spirits lifted, and aid recovery.
It would be best to keep him indoors. Crows are known to peck at sick birds. Or he could be prey to hawks. Most of all, its gets too cold at night.
Dont worry that you can't get enough time to be with him. While working it is impossible, but while you are with him, give him your full attention. Handle him gently, and earn his trust. He will surely improve.

PS:If you can get Neurobion tablet (Vitamin-B supplemt) I think it will do the job of Veral drops. I am not sure of the dosage. I think I gave less than quarter a tablet.
Also piracetam is good for the nerves too..as a brain tonic. I am giving one 2ml dropper full once a day.
There are many experts over here, who can help you way better. Hope someone also replies.
If you have any doubts you can call me at the number I am about to message you.


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## Prankey

Happily the Pigeon is in good health now. As per Kunju's advice, I started giving amox. and gave for about 13 days before I stated smelling of heavy medication! It was showing good recovery so I have stopped antibiotics after then and keeping her on multivatimin and similar feeding. It has gained weight and is quite active all the time without any sign of sickness other than twisting neck which has also reduced SIGNIFICANTLY now (Finally!).

Its head is usually straight up or slightly tilted. Only when its anxious, it twists its head else keeps the head straight most of the time and even at times walk swinging its neck like a duck which seems to be a good sign and as since couple of months, try to fly once in a while though with twisted neck which has to improve.

Nevertheless, I thank all for helping me take care of her (btw its named "Iglu" by my daughter couple of months back). I can finally see her recovering completely (hopefully).

One video I took last week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQCqzw-Ilog&feature=share&list=UUVM8tQU14HUtcZzF10_7UMw

Sorry for the background noise as it was taken besides a busy road.


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## kunju

Very glad to see that iglu is improving! In the video, he/she is not even pecking at you.

Mine is a ferocious pecker!

Since iglu cannot fly on his own, you will not be able to release him/her. Iglu is indeed lucky to have got a caring family!

It was my daughter who gave our pigeon his name 'Rudy' too. She named him after the dinosaur in Ice Age, because his eyes looked exactly like the dinosaur's eyes


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## Prankey

^ She also used to peck me if I went close to her face. On the other side though she was unable to turn the head on the right so she used to turn clockwise or anticlockwise and shake her wings to scare me!

However, a SHOCKING incident has happened 3 days back before you wrote that I had kept her outside on the Balcony and as she had started to fly a bit (about 1 feet for few seconds), I kept her with the box closed and just 1/4th of the opening for her to peep out. She somehow managed to climb the box and was roaming across the balcony when my wife and sister saw and they were keeping a vigil believing that I had put her out for fresh air and Sun. However she just disappeared after few minutes and when I went looking around, the security guard suggested to have seen her falling and flying off from about 3 feet off the ground to a small adjacent garden on the ground floor flat. 

I went there, searched for her, looked another 50 meter radius especially the corners where she usually used to hide out of anxiety of being out, she was NO WHERE TO BE FOUND. I keep searching every few minutes to hours since past 3 days but there is just no sign of her anywhere. I have informed the security guards of mine and the adjacent 2 apartments and till date there is no sign of her (alive or dead). I am still hopeful that she is doing okay on her own and is certainly alive somewhere and keep looking for her hoping to see her completely fit or atleast surviving on her own. However, I am deeply disturbed with this incident primarily because I was taking care of her, feeding multivitamins and more importantly peas and rice which she may not get on her own.

She really had become part of my family and my entire family is shaken due to this incident and keep consoling me that she should be fine and may show up within the next few days. I even have dreams of her and not able to sleep peacefully as my thoughts keep going back to her and her well being and at times get desperate to see her. I go out looking for her whenever I hear sound of pigeons or feel she may be around. I feel extremely helpless when I realize that this incident could have easily be avoided had my wife knew that I hadn't left her out in the open as she had started flying a bit and should have atleast brought her inside the house to keep her safe.

One reason I see her doing this may be as she saw several people coming that day in the morning and may have got more anxious.

I try to figure how she went off and feel she might have tried to fly like always and may have climb about 1 feel on a small slab where there is an opening at the bottom where she might have fell while walking backwards (she still used to walk backwards while twisting its head though it had significantly reduced).

I can't believe she started flying normally all of a sudden after these months and had run off away from my apartment, but am completely helpless in tracing her! Still can't believe this has really happened and still have her carton waiting for her


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## Dima

I hope you can find her. When pigeons are scared they put all their energy and strengh into escaping the danger.

Best of luck.


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## Jay3

That is so sad. She won't survive out there on her own.


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## kunju

She couldn't have started flying all of a sudden, i feel.
My pigeon also can fly upto 1 foot high, but it has no control over its wings, and comes down crashing backwards. If your bird has not attained control over his wings, I feel it is unlikely that he flew out. I am not sure, but I am feeling more like he somehow got to the railing, and more or less fell down.
I know it feels terrible. All I wish to say is please keep hope and keep looking. Since she cannot fly, it is unlikely that she has travelled far. Tell those security men to look out for a 'flightless pigeon, possibly with head drooping and circling around'. I will pray that you get him/her.
Meanwhile, if there are ways to let more neighbours know about iglu's ecape (like your wife's friends), make sure you let as many people know. Maybe a poster with iglu's description and your contact number pasted at places will help? I know the idea seems far-fetched. Once when we lost our cat, we in fact executed this idea, and we got our cat back miraculously. So lets leave no stone unturned.


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