# vomiting after worming?



## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

Hello

'm having a bit of difficulty worming my pigeons. Before I tried to user Worm-Ende-Plus, it's a liquid, but they wouldn't touch it. So I searched forums and some suggested to try to add some honey to disguise the taste. 
So I did, and it worked: one of my pigeon drank a lot of it. But when I checked on them later on this evening, I saw that one of my pigeons -the one which drank the whole lot - vomited all the food. I don't know if it is a side effect or is it bad at all? Should I be worrying?
Otherwise she seem to be ok, sleeping as normal.
The other pigeons didn't drank as much, they ok.
Could it be the honey or it's the medication?

Thanks for your advice


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

It is not abnormal for a pigeon to regurgitate medications. your pigeon/s should be fine if you measured by the directions correctly. What kind of De-worming meds do they have in Aussie?


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

This Worm Enda Plus I just got it from the pet shop. There aren't many choices up here, this was pretty much the only one which did work for all the different worms. I probably could get some avitrol tablets over the net, but I would really struggle giving tablets to them.
For the dosage, I measured exactly as it said: 10 drops to 20 ml water (+ the honey)
Though it also say on the bottle that prasiquantel based on average bodyweight of 30g and consumpltion of 5ml of liquid a day. So not even sure how much of this syrup they are supposed to drink. 
Last Dec I took my pigeons to the vet (very expensive), she treated them with ivomec, but she refused to give me ivomec over the counter. So now I'm stucked with this syrup which they hate and don't drink it unless I put lots of honey in it, and if they do, than they they throw up from it.
Is there any better option?
thanks


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi mysstic,

I'm from Australia too. 

The Levimisole in the `Worm enda Plus' syrup (as well as Avitrol plus) is known for causing nausea & regurgitation unfortuneately, though it seems to be a very effective wormer in my experiences with it. I decided to use the Avitrol plus tablets, instead of the syrup, as they are very easy to administer and there's no risk of overdose. I just pop half a tablet down the back of their throats at roosting time, and again in 2 weeks time. When you said you couldn't administer tablets, is that because you have too many birds, or are you not used to handling them? Just wondering.

The other wormer I use regularly that can be safely put in water and won't cause nausea is ``Moxidectin''. This is a more modern version of Ivermectin, and has wider safety margin than Levimisole. I get mine sent to me via the post from this Avian Vet in brisbane (I ring them up and order over the phone). This is probably the best option for water dosing and the taste is palatable too:

http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Bella,

It's good to see someone from AU  I only have four fantails, and they are not hard to handle, they actually quite friendly. What I meant is just that I'm a bit scared to push some tablets down the throat, never done it.
Is moxidectin works for all the worms? I read that Ivomectin is not so effective. 
Once a week I give them water mixed with apple cider and garlic. (1 teaspoon / 1.2L)
I wonder why they not keeping Moxidectin in the shops, it seems to be a much better option. I could check if some of the vets up here have it. I'm in Cairns.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Practice by feeding some peas or corn to your birds its really easy to feed them pills.
I use this stuff called Aviverm its a liquid you put in the water, they vomit after drinking that too sometimes if they drink too much.
Does aussie have an auction website like ebay? try searching for wormer on there. 
I find Aviverm works really well for all birds.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

mysstic said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> It's good to see someone from AU  I only have four fantails, and they are not hard to handle, they actually quite friendly. What I meant is just that I'm a bit scared to push some tablets down the throat, never done it.
> Is moxidectin works for all the worms? I read that Ivomectin is not so effective.
> ...


Fantails are so lovely, its nice to meet someone living in my own state who cares for pigeons too The fantails have smaller mouths than regular pigeons , is that right? 

I was told that moxidectin has to be purchased from Vets in QLD, I believe there is a QLD law that prevents it from being sold in produce or pet stores. If you run into problems, please contact Brisbane bird vet in that link I posted, and have them post some to you. 

Another really helpful thing about Moxidectin (and ivermectin) is if you are nervous about aspirating your birds by putting liquid down their mouths, moxidectin can be applied to the back of the neck in drops. It really works too, I've been treating baby magpies this way during the breeding season for spiruoid worm (a type of gape worm) and it clears them up beautifully.

There is also a version of moxidectin called `Moxidectin plus'. The `PLUS' refers to the addition of praziquantel, which is for tape worms. Whenever you see a wormer than has a `PLUS' version, eg Avitrol versus Avitrol `PLUS' it usually means that praziquantel is added. It tastes and smells horrible, lol. I don't really know if its necessary to add it in all cases, I believe tape worms can be rare.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

Yes, they are lovely, and very spoiled ;-). I don't know whether they have a smaller mouth, never had any other pigeons to compare with.
I checked this moxidectin with the vet, they don't keep it, but the vet suggested to try wormout gel. It has the same stuff in it than in the End Wormer Plus, but it's a bigger concentrate, and it's also better for pigeons. The dosage is 2 ml of gel to 320 ml, so hopefully they won't notice the difference. 
The End Wormer Plus dosage is 10 drops to 20 ml. Really taste awful!!!! I can't blame them not wanting to drink it!
The vet said that they normally drink 5 ml / day, but mine drank last night the whole 20 ml. It's say not to give it on a hot day. Grrr. When is not a hot day up here in Cairns??? 
Are you from Brisbane?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi mysstic,

I have a lot of experience with wormout Gel. Birds won't drink this in water, it is totally foul in taste and needs to be crop administered. 

But most importantly, it kills pigeons & has almost no margin for dosage error. It has a toxic element called oxfendazole, related to fenbendazole, which is poisonous to pigeons. We have lots and lots of nightmare stories about this family of drugs on this forum, they are called the `Benzimidazole' family (usually sold as panacur in the US). There are scientific studies to back these anecdotes up which i have read thoroughly, and yet Avian vets keep prescribing it to pigeon owners without knowing that it kills. It doesn't always kill, of course, but when it does its a painful slow death and it happens a lot. An Avian vet here in Brisbane killed my first rescued pigeon with wormout Gel, that's how I know and why I have researched this.

Why take the risk? You are better off with the worm enda syrup than the wormout gel.

Also, the vet was wrong about how much water pigeons consume per day. With most water administered medication, you would dose based on 30ml of water consumed per day (per pigeon), not 5ml.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

ooohh, that's really bad. I'm sorry for your rescued pigeon. 
I had a feeling that this vet I've seen a few times doesn't know much about birds at all. 
I wonder why she is so careful with ivomec, but not with this wormout gel? She told me that it has the same ingredients than the worm enda plus. Obviously she got that wrong too.
But if you can't trust a vet, that it's really really bad. And they not a charity either!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

mysstic said:


> But if you can't trust a vet, that it's really really bad. And they not a charity either!


I agree! Its frustrating; I spent a lot of money finding out how little some Vets know about helping sick pigeons & paying for their mistakes & its hard not to feel a bit mad. I expect it mostly comes down to deficiencies in the text books they use at work,and whether they are up to date. Its very likely that panacur and those other deadly wormers are recommended in some textbook written in the 70's before newer information was available, it wouldn't surprise me. Vets are great for doing proper tests, prescribing meds, and fixing injuries though.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

I will give them a call tomorrow and ask to exchange this wormout gel to avitrol or something else.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

This article actually promotes Oxfendazole and say " Levamisole as a chemical is effective but highly toxic to birds at even a small overdose."

http://www.vetafarm.com.au/pages/Products-for-birds.html

Obviously they promote it because they want to sell their product, regardless of the consequences.
But they could be right on the possibility of overdosing Levamisole?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Mysstic,

Yes I would expect that to be true of Levimisole, as all Worming medicines are regarded as highly toxic & dangerous for birds. Moxidectin is one of the safest (and most palatable) for use in water.

You could ask your vet to get some moxidectin in for you? Then you can dose your fantails accurately via drops on the back of their necks instead of putting it in water.

If you feel that you need to add praziquantel for tape worms, there is a product called `moxidectin plus' that treats that too. The thing about treating for tape worms, though, is if your birds have them, you will see the tape worm segments in their droppings eventually, say within a couple of months- they are huge, gross and unmistakable. If you are not seeing the tape worm segments then its unlikely that you need praziquantel.

If you want to read some more info about wormers from an Avian vet here in Australia who specialises in Pigeons, here is some more info:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/products/veterinary_medicines2.html


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

I will give a call to your avian vet in BNE. there is no avian vet here in Cairns!!! Can you believe it???


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## fajaffafa (Jan 6, 2012)

I decided to use the Avitrol plus tablets, instead of the syrup, as they are very easy to administer and there's no risk of overdose. I just pop half a tablet down the back of their throats at roosting time, and again in 2 weeks time. When you said you couldn't administer tablets, is that because you have too many birds, or are you not used to handling them? Just wondering.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

No don't have many birds, only four fantails. I'm just worried pushing something down their throat, they can suffocate or something, if I'm doing it incorrectly? I never done it and nobody showed me how to do it.


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## SimonPennyz (Feb 24, 2012)

This sounds like a natural reflex to me.
I had a similar problem a few years ago so took it to the vet and was told to keep an eye on it incase it kept happening.... So you should be fine as long as it doesn't keep happening after you gave them the medication.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

I actually found a vet who will come out to my place and worm them with avitrol plus tablets. And for free!!!! Unbelievable, ha? I believe once she showed me, I could do it myself in the future.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

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