# Sticky  Infection - Big Problems



## Maggie-NC

Hi everyone

We have a crisis in our "keeper" aviary. Most of the birds are moulting now so it has not been unusual to see them puffed out some. Yesterday morning, everyone was fed and watered as usual. Lewis went for his walk, came back home and checked the aviaries. He brought Ringo in because he was breathing heavily, open mouthed, puffed out badly. He went back to the aviary and brought in Simon who was doing the same thing. Simon is my very best buddy and I took her from him and held her. She started convulsing and Lewis took her back and she died within a minute or so. Right now, I'm not even thinking about the loss of Simon because of trying to do something for the others.

We immediately took her body to the lab and the pathologist called later that afternoon and said her "lungs" were badly infected and he would have to send off tissue to see what had caused this. He advised us to put all in the aviary on Baytril. I called our vet who said the same thing. So, we brought all 31 or so in and gave them Baytril yesterday afternoon. Most of them appear to be ok although 1 or 2 are puffed out some.

Ringo is holding on although I don't see how. He is puffed out twice his size and his sides visually move in and out. He is on a heating pad. 

Last Sunday, Boss Hog, who is a white homing pigeon, had similar symptoms and we brought him in and put him on a heating pad in a quiet room and I gave him one dose of Baytril. Monday morning we took him to the vet. She examined him and said he had concussion (though we don't know how that could be) and gave a steroid shot. He seemed to improve slightly but I put him back on Baytril on Tuesday. His stool is extremely watery. He remains in the dining room.

The odd thing about whatever this is, is the birds continue to eat pretty good but there has been a weight loss for the 3 that appear to have it. All birds were treated in August for both worms and coccidiosis and then had a round of Probios afterwards.

I just don't know what is going on but we're trying to hang in there. Although the other birds in the other 2 aviaries are special, the ones we call our "keepers" were extra special and we love them very much.

Please remember us in your thoughts and prayers.


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## pigeonmama

Oh, Maggie,
Hoping the best for you and your pigeons. Hope the Baytril takes care of the problem and birds regain health, quickly.
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC

Thank you Daryl

Ringo just died. We had him a long time and loved him dearly.


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## Birdmom4ever

I'm so sorry for your losses, Maggie.  It sounds like an outbreak of respiratory infection. It can happen when they are vulnerable from moulting. I've found Doxy-T to be the most effective for flock treatment of respiratory infections. It's made by the Australian Pigeon Company and you can get it from Jedd's. I have used Baytril on individual pigeons, the injectible type for severe cases. When we had an outbreak last year, the pigeons would seem fine one day and the next would be breathing heavily, beak open, and making gurgling sounds as they breathed. I nearly lost one of my fantail hens. I brought her inside, kept her on warmth and injected her with Baytril for five days. She didn't improve until Day 3.

Hopefully you will get more info on the exact cause from the necropsy. Are they going to run sensitivities on the bacteria present?


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## Feefo

I am so sorry Maggie, it is a situation which we all dread and you are fighting an invisible enemy while coping with your tragic losses. Every rescued pigeon is so special. 

Karen had a similar outbreak in her aviary, I think it was last summer. The vet put the pigeons on aureomycin, it stopped the deaths even though it didn't turn out to be ornithosis. They never established what had caused it.

I hope that your vet can find out what the problem is quickly, you have better diagnostic services in the US than we have here.

Sending positive thoughts.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Don't know if you could tell your vet to do an impression smear of the lungs and spleen (of Ringo) and check for Chlamydiophyla by staining. There are several stains that can show it up (Gimenez, Macchiavello's, Diff-Quik) but I'd get them on the Doxycycline anyhow. Doxycycline and Aureomycin are very similar (in the same family), by the way.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Maggie,

I'm so sorry to hear about Ringo and Simon. I hope the necropsy will give you a better idea of what is going on.

I have heard using the aureomycin concentrate with Tylan is very effective with respiratory infections. 

I also am sending most positive thoughts and prayers that the outbreak has been stopped by the Baytril, as it sounds like it has helped. 

I would also give them a drop of cod liver oil on their seed, as it is a wonderful anti-infectant and vital to lung tissue repair and immunity. Alfalfa tabs are also a good source of vitamin A, and more. A garlic capsule a day, Reishi, & Neem would also be a wonderful anti-infectant. ...And of course a round of good avian multi-vitamin mineral, and amino acid supplement I would highly recommend.


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## mr squeaks

I am SO sorry to hear of this outbreak and the resultant deaths of your beloved birds!

I can only offer my MOST COMFORTING AND HEALING THOUGHTS AND HUGS to you and Lewis!

Hopefully, you will get some results back FAST!

I will watching for POSITIVE updates!


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## Pidgey

On the Tylan, if you can get the injectible version and get that mixed with DMSO (DiMethylSulfOxide) and delivered by nebulization, it can get an early kick on susceptible respiratory infections. Your vet should have all the stuff to do that and it's been done with pigeons (and other birds, of course) before.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Our vet was supposed to call back this morning because I kept thinking of Brad's Henny and wondered if Baytril was the right medicine to use since the pathologist had specifically mentioned pneumonia. I asked one of her assistant's to ask her about this before she left at noon. I didn't hear back.

Right now about the only thing we can do is keep them on Baytril until Monday. We were getting very low on that but our rehabber friend gave us 3 more 20 ml bottles so that should see us through for a few days.

I just don't know how in the world something like this could break out. We work so hard to keep them well cared for and the aviaries clean. I didn't know a respiratory infection could take them so fast. Simon had been her usual sweet self earlier in the week, all over me, and then to die that fast. Ringo's death was very bad for him before the end. He seemed to suffer a great deal and it was almost a relief when he did pass.

Thank all of you so much. Sharing this makes it easier to bear although losing Simon is one of the worst things to happen to me personally. Although Frosty is our main bird, Simon was all mine.


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## Pidgey

Crossed fingers through the rest of the weekend. Things like this usually come unexpected and hit hard and fast. I wish there was a way you could find some kind of Tetracycline and start dosing them with it.

Pidgey


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## maryjane

Oh Maggie, I'm just in tears reading your post. I'm so very sorry!! What a horrible tragedy. I will pray and hope for the others to be okay. I'm sending you a big hug. I really hope everyone else is okay.


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## Feefo

> I just don't know how in the world something like this could break out. We work so hard to keep them well cared for and the aviaries clean.


When Piglet developed a sort of whooping cough last year the vet said that there were free floating bacteria in the atmosphere that could infect pigeons at random. He warned us that Piglet could develop and abscess on his windpipe that could kill him in seconds. Fortunately Piglet survived, but that made me aware that however meticulous we are we can't protect our pigeons from everythin. 

Cynthia


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## Lin Hansen

Maggie,

I'm so very sorry that this is happening. I'm sure every loss is hard to take, but it's got to be that much harder when when the birds are your special pals. And particularly maddening when you know that you've done your best and more to provide a healthy environment and ~still~ a terrible thing like this happens.

My heart goes out to you.........and best wishes that the rest will get well.

Linda


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## Reti

Maggie, I am so sorry for your losses. This is so terrible when you don't know what you're dealing with.
We all dread situations like this.
You probably have something airborne going on which entered your aviaries from outside.
My thoughts and prayers are with you. I pray you won't have any more losses.

Reti


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## TAWhatley

Maggie,

I'm so very, very sorry this is happening to you and your beloved birds. You've gotten good advice from everyone, and I hope all the birds will be OK. Hopefully a definite diagnosis can be gotten.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

Based on the preliminary report by the pathologist of a respiratory infection, I was wondering if this would be contagious from one bird to another. We have never dealt with anything like this before so I just don't know. We have them in separate cages in the garage except we did put the pairs together to eliminate additional stress. 

Will the Baytril carry them through until we can get Tetracycline or whatever the vet tells me Monday is the best. Also, it will probably be mid-week before the lab results come back with a definitive answer which could change everything.

Boss Hog who came down with it early last week appears to be doing pretty good but his poop is so watery that I'm really concerned about that. The vet that we took him to Monday is the one near our home - not the one I go to most often. I knew when she said he had a concussion that we were in trouble.

Pidgey, we had already buried Ringo when I read your post but in any event the vet had already left for the weekend. I really hate not being able to bury my Simon in the yard but we had to find out what is going on.


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## jazaroo

Oh Maggie,

I am truly sorry to hear about your loss, I can only imagine how devastated you must feel.

If it's any help, here are are a few links confirming that that tetracyclines, such as Doxycycline may be given in combination with a Floroquinalone, such as Cipro (Baytril) or a macrolide, such as Azithromycin.

http://www.immed.org/reports/treatment_considerations/ChlamydialTreat-01.3.8.htm

http://tinyurl.com/qf4q8

One of the links shows that this combination for Chlamydia as a recommended treatment, as Pidgey seems to be hinting at Chlamydia if I am not mistaken.

This link does show that Cipro (Baytril) does has effect alone on Chlamydia, although a weaker one. I agree it would be great if you could somehow get your hands on some Doxy, or any tetracycline, and get your birds started on both.

http://tinyurl.com/jqyr6

My thoughts and prayers are with you,

Ron


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## Skyeking

Maggie,

Besides what I already listed, and what I PM'd you, I also have this Herba Air Spray among my arsenal of natural goodies. I use it in the coop once a week or once a month depending on the mosquitos and air quality, but it has a positive effect on bronchial tubes, colds, sinusitis, bronchitis, mucus, etc. and builds up resistence. I like using it when the humidity is down and the air is dry. I spray it in the coop at night, but you can also put it in their water. 

I really use it sparingly, because it costs alot. I like it and it smells nice. 

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=14


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## Birdmom4ever

It's my understanding that respiratory infections in pigeons are _highly_ contagious. That has been my experience, although whatever strain we had last summer was apparently not as deadly as the one you're dealing with. It sure spread fast, though.

It's also my understanding that respiratory infections in pigeons are often, though not always, caused by a combination of Chlamydia and Mycoplasma. I think that's why Doxy-T is so effective, because it combines doxycycline and Tylan (tylosin) to kill both organisms. In my pigeons it was more effective than Baytril in knocking the infection. Once I put the whole flock on it the outbreak stopped and we didn't have any more new cases.


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## Reti

Treesa, this is a good one.
I will get it some day soon.

Maggie, if more than one bird got it, whatever it is, can probably spread form bird to bird or via aerosoles or respiratory droplets.
It's good you isolated them and keep them as far apart form eachother as possible.
Hopefully by Monday you will know what it is and have a specific treatment.

Reti


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## pdpbison

Hi Maggie,


Might be good to mist the air and mist everything down in the loft and cages and soon, with "Oxine" (I got my gallon from Jedds or Foys...haven't used it yet but it is supposed to be a marvelous steralizer against anything and everything yet will not harm Creatres...or is even benificial for asthma, pnuemonias, or other repiratory problems...and can act like a medicine-antibiotic when misted in the air and breathed in...

Anyway, if you are not familiar with it, do a few 'googles'...it may just be a good thing for your situation...

Mine says "OXINE"...

"Fungacidal...Bacteriocidal...Virucidal..."

Made by "BIO-CIDE International Inc., Norman, Oklahoma

Comes in Gallons and larger sizes too..a Gallon I think is around $35.00 and it is a concentrate which will make many many Gallons for use.

There are different ways of useing it, and for us, this usually means that we add only a small amout of the concentrate to a gallon of Water, and 'mist' everything...misting the ambient Air also...


Best wishes Maggie..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Rooster2312

I am so sorry to hear of this terrible outbreak and the loss of your beloved Simon and Ringo.

Hoping and praying that this situation is resolved very soon and your other affected birds return to normal health quickly.

Big hugs and prayers,

Lindi and Jax


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## Maggie-NC

Thank you all

Things seem to be stable right now and I sure hope it stays that way.

There are a couple of things I wanted to mention in case anyone else ever has this problem. All of our birds in that particular aviary have their little corners that they always stay in when they're not on the ground. All three that came down with it, Ringo, Simon and Boss Hog, stayed in one corner, along with several others. I thought it odd that they were affected. May have no bearing on what went on but it makes me wonder. We're keeping an eye on the others that we know use that corner. The other thing is that in both Simon and Ringo's death, picking them up seemed to trigger their dying. I don't know whether we pressed on the air sacs or not.

Boss Hog is finally pooping real poop. We moved him out to the garage so he could see and be with the others but put him in area by himself.

We have power washed the aviary and tomorrow will use clorox to disinfect and clean.


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## maryjane

Thank goodness Boss Hog is better. It was the first thing I thought of when I woke up this morning. All of our thoughts and prayers (and hearts) are with you guys right now.


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## sabina

Maggie,
I am so so sorry for your losses. It is so very sad to lose loved ones, especially so out of the blue like that. I know how much I suffered when my cat died last year when he was 12, and he had been my love since he was born. My heart goes out to you, truly. I hope all the rest of the pijies stay well, and that this outbreak stays under control. Our thoughts are with you in this stressful time.
Sabina


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## Birdmom4ever

I'm so glad to hear Boss Hogg is improving. Disinfecting is the best thing you can do. Hopefully you won't have any new cases.


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## mr squeaks

That's good news, Maggie!

I, too, add my WARM HEALING HUGS and THOUGHTS TO YOU ALL!!  

I know how detrimental stress can be and I hope you have no more outbreaks or deaths!

With love,
Shi and Squeaks


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## Maggie-NC

I love you guys!

Your support means so much to us.

We just finished dosing the birds and so far, so good. We are weighing them every other day trying to catch any weight loss. I was so pleased that Boss Hog has started gaining weight again and his poop is looking much better plus he is pretty frisky.

There is only one bird we're watching closely, Cookie, who seems subdued but is maintaining her weight and no heavy breathing. She has always been reserved and doesn't like being caged so I'm hoping that is all that is bothering her.

Still haven't heard from the vet but I am ordering Doxy-T today just in case the Baytril doesn't fully do the job. Everything is being disinfected. I was thinking this afternoon that in the apx 10 years we've had an aviary we have had only 2 die in them. One, Feisty, who died last fall from a kidney problem and Pearlie, who died several years ago when he flew into the side of the aviary.


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## TerriB

Oh, Maggie! I am very sorry for your losses. You are so meticulous in your care of the birds...this is such a shock. Thank you for sharing your observations so someone else might benefit in the future.


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## Maggie-NC

*Update*

I talked with the pathologist, awhile ago. Tests have come back NEGATIVE for: Chlamydia, Microplasma, Aspergillosis, Bacteria. They are still waiting for the PMV-1 and West Nile reports. He said it may be viral in nature and we may never know the reason they died. I have been in daily contact with our vet so I'm waiting now to hear from her on these latest results.

We moved all of them back to the aviary yesterday afternoon. All seem ok but this morning we brought the "oops" baby, Comet, in because he could barely fly and was staying on the ground. He is in the laundry room and has pecked a little at the seed but only a little. One wing is drooping some and I hope he simply hit a perch the wrong way. He is about 3 months old and had done really well in the garage with the others.

We're no further than we were except (cross fingers) they're still alive.


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## Birdmom4ever

Oh Maggie, that's discouraging. It's so much easier when it's some recognizable bacterial infection you know how to treat. I'm praying your pigeons will recover and that no one else gets sick. It does seem at least somewhat encouraging that you haven't had a new case in awhile.


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## Reti

I wish it was something we kenew how to treat.
I hope Comet is better already.

Reti


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## maryjane

I'm sorry you couldn't get a definite answer about the cause. I hope Comet is doing better and is 100% soon.


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## pdpbison

Hi Maggie, 


So sorry...

I suppose a Viral pneumonia of some kind would be an elusive one to determine clinically, without a necropsy.

Just super cleaning, as you did...and good general nutrition and special immune builders/support, as you are doing, s about all a boy or girl can do...

I suppose, double and triple check their Seed and if any hint of doubts there, toss it and get new...

Is about all I can think of for summary review on this.


If any neighbors had been spraying anything...and chemical sources or fires near by the winds could have sent your way...certainly such things can compromise them to where some otherwise background or incidental infection/virus/bacteria/mold thing can get an upper hand...


Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC

Thank you all. Comet seems to be ok, but we're keeping him in for a few more days just to be sure.

Phil, the first one that died, Simon, has been necropsied and they're still working on tissue but most of the bacteria-like diseases have been eliminated. Interesting that you mentioned the fumes/smoke, etc. because the pathologist asked me the same thing yesterday. There is a vacant field next to our house but I don't think anything has been sprayed and there have been no fires. 

Some of you may have heard on the news about the huge chemical fire in Apex, NC Thursday night. It was really bad and thousands of people are just now being allowed back to their homes because the fire has burned itself out. If this had happened last week I would have concerns about that being the problem for our birds since we live only 10 or so miles from this town. The chemical cloud was dispersed by rain so it had no chance to spread our way.


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## Skyeking

Hi Maggie,

I hope Comet continues to improve and all your birds are better.

I heard about that nasty fire, what a blessing the rain came when it did.

The thing that I worry about with my birds is ventilation for those who sit on the floor. Respiratory issues are quite a big deal for pigeons. I don't know if you have any floor-sitters, but I always think they are exposed to all the dust and anything else gravity brings down on them. We are adding new cubbies and renovating the old ones, so we can get these birds off the floor. We have plenty of perches, but it seems they all want cubbies. There is plenty of ventilation around the roof, but not on the ground/floor.

Anyway, I'm hard pressed to get the added/renovation going once the new cubbies for Jasper, Gracie and my single hens are installed.

I usually catch the few that sit on the ground and give them garlic caps once a week, actually I give garlic capsules to all and any birds I can catch.


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## Maggie-NC

*Necropsy results*

We received the Pathologist's report yesterday and to tell the truth, it doesn't tell us much more than we already knew. This is what he said:

"NECROPSY: External examination of the bird did not reveal external parasites or lesions. The bird had a good muscle mass. Internally, the liver was darker than normal and its surface had a slightly rough appearance. Both lungs were reddish in color, appeared markedly edematous, and had whitish areas. Other organs/tissues appeared normal. Samples of the liver and of one lung were collected for bacterial isolation. Samples of different organs were collected for histopathologic examination.

HISTOPATHOLOGY: Sections of brain, lung, trachea, liver, kidney, spleen, intestine and pancreas were examined. LUNG: Fibrin and mixed inflammatory cells, including macrophages, are present in the lumens of some parabronchi and atria, which their epithelial lining show hypertrophy. The walls of parabronchi and atria are edematous and infiltrated by mononuclear inflammatory cells. Air capillaries appeared to contain edema fluid. In one section, there are two granulomas with multinucleated giant cells. The pleura and air sacs are expanded by edema and mononuclear cell infiltrates. LIVER: Throughout the section and particularly around blood vessels, there are multifocal cellular aggregates of lympocytes, macrophages and plasma. Some of the aggregates evolve into granulomas containing variable number of multinucleated giant cells. The smooth muscle layer of blood vessels are markedly thickened. KIDNEY: There are occasional small collections of mononuclear cells. OTHER ORGANS/TISSUES: The appearance was within normal limits.

BACTERIOLOGY: Liver and lung aerobic cultures did not yield a bacterial growth. Result of Mycoplasma culture is pending.

VIROLOGY: The liver and lung samples were negative by an immunoassay test for Chlamydophila (Chlamydia).

COMMENTS: Culture of a lung sample for Mycoplasma is in progress. A follow-up report will be submitted if a Mycoplasma is isolated. The cause of death of the bird was damage to the lung by an undetermined causative agent. The lesions in the lungs would explain the respiratory distress, which the bird showed before death. I have consulted other avian pathologists at the College of Veterinary Medicine, NC State University, and we wll believe that there is a possibility that the lesions in the lungs of the bird were caused by an undetermined protozoal parasite. Some protozoal parasites can cause damage to the lung, and these parasites are not always easily visualized in histologic tissue sections. If another bird dies, I recommend submitting it to the laboratory for examination."

I am taking a copy of the report to our vet next week so she can explain it to me.


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## Larry_Cologne

*re necropsy reports*

Maggie, 

So sorry to hear of your lossses. My heart goes out to you.

I was reading this thread and had just subscribed to it when your latest post with the pathologist's report popped up. Cyro51's mention of *Piglet* developing a sort of _whooping_ cough last year had pricked my ears up, becase Wieteke occasionally whoops or honks, or however you may describe it. 

I don't want to "educate" you, since you may know more than I do, but someone may find this interesting.

I don't want to stick my neck out too far, but I seem to recall that

a _protozoan_ is a microorganism that can be seen under the microscope; we saw some under the microscope years ago in biology class, so larger than bacteria and viruses. I actually saw some of them move around, from a jar of of creek water I brought to the lab. Always wanted to own a nice (expensive) microscope since then, but my world would probably have shrunk to the limits (width) of my elbows. As it is now, I sit too much at my new computer.

okay, I might as well do some homework, here's the Wikipedia link;

-----------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoa

_Edema_ is a simple term to describe a condition of excess water collecting in the tissues or cavities of the body. 

(I had a small amount of water collecting in my lungs a few yeasr ago, as shown by an X-ray and a CT (computer tomogram), kept on my feet, but inhaled antibiotics ciprofloxin and tobramycin, just in case). 

----------------------

_*Link to pulmonary edema:*_

*http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Lung+edema* 

Pulmonary edema is swelling and/or fluid accumulation in the lungs. It leads to impaired gas exchange and may cause respiratory failure. It is due to either failure of the heart to remove fluid from the lung circulation ("cardiogenic pulmonary edema"), or due to a direct insult to the lung parenchyma ("noncardiogenic pulmonary edema").[1] Treatment depends on the cause, but focuses on maximizing respiratory function and removing the cause.

*Signs and symptoms*

Symptoms of pulmonary edema include difficulty breathing, coughing up blood, excessive sweating, anxiety and pale skin. If left untreated, it can lead to coma and even death, generally due to its main complication of hypoxia. 

If pulmonary edema has been developing gradually, symptoms of fluid overload may be elicited. These include nocturia (frequent urination at night), ankle edema (swelling of the legs, generally of the "pitting" variety), orthopnea (inability to lie down flat due to breathlessness) and paroxysmal nocturnal dyspnea (episodes of severe sudden breathlessness at night). 

*Diagnosis*

Pulmonary edema is generally suspected due to findings in the medical history, such as previous cardiovascular disease, and physical examination: end-inspiratory crackles (sounds heard at the end of a deep breath) on auscultation (listening to the breathing through a stethoscope) are characteristic for pulmonary edema. The presence of a third heart sound (S3) is predictive of cardiogenic pulmonary edema. 

Blood tests are generally performed for electrolytes (sodium, potassium) and markers of renal function (creatinine, urea). Liver enzymes, inflammatory markers (usually C-reactive protein) and a complete blood count as well as coagulation studies (PT, aPTT) are typically requested. B-type natriuretic peptide (BNP) is available in many hospitals, especially in the US, sometimes even as a point-of-care test. Low levels of BNP (<100 pg/ml) make a cardiac cause very unlikely. 

The diagnosis is confirmed on X-ray of the lungs, which shows increased fluid in the alveolar walls. Kerley B lines, increased vascular filling, pleural effusions, upper lobe diversion (increased blood flow to the higher parts of the lung) may be indicative of cardiogenic pulmonary edema, while patchy alveolar infiltrates with air bronchograms are more indicative of noncardiogenic edema. 

Low oxygen saturation and disturbed arterial blood gas readings may strengthen the diagnosis and provide grounds for various forms of treatment. If urgent echocardiography is available, this may strengthen the diagnosis, as well as identify valvular heart disease. In rare occasions, insertion of a Swan-Ganz catheter may be required to distinguish between the two main forms of pulmonary edema.

*Causes*

Pulmonary edema is either due to direct damage to the tissue or as a result of inadequate functioning of the heart or circulatory system.

*Cardiogenic causes:*

Congestive heart failure
Severe heart attack with left ventricular failure
Severe arrhythmias (tachycardia/fast heartbeat or bradycardia/slow heartbeat)
Hypertensive crisis
Pericardial effusion with tamponade
Fluid overload, e.g. from kidney failure

*Non-cardiogenic causes*

This form is contiguous with ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome):
Inhalation of toxic gases
Multiple blood transfusions
Severe infection
Pulmonary contusion, i.e. high-energy trauma
Multitrauma, e.g. severe car accident
Neurogenic, e.g. subarachnoid hemorrhage
Aspiration, e.g. gastric fluid or in case of drowning
Certain types of medication
Upper airway obstruction
Reexpansion, i.e. postpneumonectomy or large volume thoracentesis
Reperfusion injury, i.e. postpulmonary thromboendartectomy or lung transplantation
Ascent to high altitude occasionally causes high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE)

*Therapy*

Focus is initially on maintaining adequate oxygenation. This may happen with high-flow oxygen, noninvasive ventilation (either continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) or variable positive airway pressure (VPAP) or mechanical ventilation in extreme cases. 

When circulatory causes have led to pulmonary edema, treatment with intravenous nitrates (glyceryl trinitrate), and loop diuretics, such as furosemide or bumetanide, is the mainstay of therapy. These improve both preload and afterload, and aid in improving cardiac function. 

There are no causal therapies for direct tissue damage; removal of the causes (e.g. treating an infection) is the most important measure.

------------------------

* So, it seems they suspect an unknown parasite in the lungs caused the damage which led to death. *

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia

This article is about *human pneumonia*. To read about pneumonia in animals, please see pneumonia (non-human).
Pneumonia
Classifications and external resources
ICD-10	J12., J13., J14., J15., J16., J17., J18., P23.
ICD-9	480-486, 770.0
DiseasesDB	10166
MeSH	C08.381.677
Pneumonia is an illness of the lungs and respiratory system in which the alveoli (microscopic air-filled sacs of the lung responsible for absorbing oxygen from the atmosphere) become inflamed and flooded with fluid. Pneumonia can result from a variety of causes, including infection with bacteria, viruses, fungi, or parasites. Pneumonia may also occur from chemical or physical injury to the lungs, or indirectly due to another medical illness, such as lung cancer or alcohol abuse.

Typical symptoms associated with pneumonia include cough, chest pain, fever, and difficulty breathing. Diagnostic tools include x-rays and examination of the sputum. Treatment depends on the cause of pneumonia; bacterial pneumonia is treated with antibiotics.

Pneumonia is a common illness, occurs in all age groups, and is a leading cause of death among the elderly and people who are chronically ill. Vaccines to prevent certain types of pneumonia are available. The prognosis for an individual depends on the type of pneumonia, the appropriate treatment, any complications, and the person's underlying health.

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*Pneumonia (non-human)* 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia_(non-human)

Pneumonia is an illness which can result from a variety of causes, including infection with bacteria, viruses, fungi, or parasites. Pneumonia can occur in any animal with lungs, including mammals, birds, and reptiles.

Symptoms associated with pneumonia include fever, fast or difficult breathing, nasal discharge, and decreased activity. Different animal species have distinct lung anatomy and physiology and are thus affected by pneumonia differently. Differences in anatomy, immune systems, diet, and behavior also affects the particular microorganisms commonly causing pneumonia. Diagnostic tools include physical examination, testing of the sputum, and x-ray investigation. Treatment depends on the cause of pneumonia; bacterial pneumonia is treated with antibiotics.

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Gotta go now.

Larry.


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## Reti

Great info, Larry. Thanks for posting it.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC

Larry, thank you so very much for all the information you compiled for me. That was a great deal of research and I appreciate it. I am going to take some time today to go through all of it. Friday, when I got the letter, I did google "protozoal parasites in lungs of birds" and found a few sites. One of them caught my attention and they talked about exposure to opossum droppings and cockroach droppings. Opossums can't get into the aviary but roaches can go just about anywhere they want to so that aspect has me worried a lot. I hope to know more when I talk to my vet tomorrow.

Again, thank you. You are always so helpful to all of us.


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## Reti

Maggie, that rings a bell, now that you mentioned it.
I've seen a few cases of sarcocystis in the clinic, where the birds get sick from cokcroach droppings. I've seen a couple of cases where this happened and it is fatal many times.
Something to think about.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Lady Tarheel said:


> I did google "protozoal parasites in lungs of birds" and found a few sites. One of them caught my attention and they talked about exposure to opossum droppings and cockroach droppings. Opossums can't get into the aviary but roaches can go just about anywhere they want to so that aspect has me worried a lot. I hope to know more when I talk to my vet tomorrow.


Hi Maggie,

I didn't respond to your last thread, because I wanted time to look up protozoal parasites myself. THANK YOU for doing so, as I myself have often wondered how to keep them pests out of the coop. 

Reti, thank you for confiming that.

I know the only way to deter cockroaches is with spray, but I don't like using any pesticides in my coop, other then the perethrin one, which is harmless to pigeons. I do use diatomacious earth and sprinkle that around, as roaches and other insects don't like it at all. You want to use it spraringly in the cracks around the perimeter to keep roaches out, as it easily loses its effectiveness when wet, and it is just a powder.


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## Maggie-NC

Reti, you have the right name for the disease that I found - Sarcocytosis. This is the site: http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/CLERK/rantze/index.php

Treesa, Thank you for your post. I have never used the diatomacious earth but remembered seeing it recently either in Foy's or Global's catalog and wondered if that would help. We definitely don't want to spray anything in the aviary particularly since we're closing them up now at night with the temps being in the 30's.

I know everyone has them in their yard but I had never thought about them getting in the aviary until this came up. We have a bird feeder fairly close to the aviary and they may eat the seed around it and migrate to the aviary. I didn't even know they ate seed until recently. We also have been putting seed on the sidewalk at the back door. A week or so ago, Lewis mentioned seeing several roaches on the sidewalk at the seed so we immediately stopped using that area. We plan to relocate the bird feeder to another area away from the aviary.

I may (& probably am) barking up the wrong tree but everything seems to fit even to the sudden death. I plan to order the diatomacious earth tomorrow. Do you think we could use seven dust around the aviaries too?


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## pdpbison

Hi Maggie, all, 


Cockroaches will reliably drown themselves in any small dish of Beer.

I also have always had Cockroaches here, and possibly they can be implicated in my own recent pnuemonia-like problem with Squeak-a-Bug, who was healthy, and got ill here.

I have been thinking hard to get a small breed of Chicken or Quail to eat the Roaches, and sent out feelers locally to see if I might find a youngster one to raise here so they would be comfortable in these surrounds, and help out with that task.

When I raised some hatchling Quail here long ago, they LOVED hunting the Roaches and ate every one they could get.

Roaches and Mice are more or less ambient Creatures around here, in this broader area I mean, and any moisture or possible food sources will encourage them to forrage and roam of course.

I do not have many roaches here, but there are some and I had not thought of them as potentially dangerous for the Birds.


Oye...

Boric Acid will kill Roaches, and it can be put in areas calculated to effect them but which the Birds will not get into.

Beer-in-a-dish likewise, if one just covers it in a way so the Roaches can get in but the Birds can not...

Old time Roack Traps were like larger Ink Wells, with a sort of slick funnel top, and a wider opening...and in the bottom of them one put a little Molassas or Sorgum syrup. The Roaches climb up, slide down in, and get trapped. Later, or now and then, one washes out the whole in hot Water and starts again. These were typically Pottery items in their day.

Good luck Maggie!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC

Phil, than you SO MUCH for the suggestions. I may try them all!

On one of the sites I looked at in connection with this it said that silky chickens would also eat the roaches and for some reason they don't come down with the disease. Also, they can't fly well so they wouldn't compete with the pigeons for perching rights.


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## fromjennie

Maggie,
my heart goes out to you, and I'm so dreadfully sorry to hear of this tradgedy. Being quite new to all this, I'm not able to offer advice for treatment, but can only imagine your heartbreak. These creatures fill our hearts and bring us a special joy. We can only love them and try our best to make them as happy in return, in the time we share with them. I want to wish you *every continued strength and great courage*for combatting this outbreak whilst coping with your terrible loss. 
Best,
fromjennie


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## vouteman

Lady Tarheel said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> We have a crisis in our "keeper" aviary. Most of the birds are moulting now so it has not been unusual to see them puffed out some. Yesterday morning, everyone was fed and watered as usual. Lewis went for his walk, came back home and checked the aviaries. He brought Ringo in because he was breathing heavily, open mouthed, puffed out badly. He went back to the aviary and brought in Simon who was doing the same thing. Simon is my very best buddy and I took her from him and held her. She started convulsing and Lewis took her back and she died within a minute or so. Right now, I'm not even thinking about the loss of Simon because of trying to do something for the others.
> 
> We immediately took her body to the lab and the pathologist called later that afternoon and said her "lungs" were badly infected and he would have to send off tissue to see what had caused this. He advised us to put all in the aviary on Baytril. I called our vet who said the same thing. So, we brought all 31 or so in and gave them Baytril yesterday afternoon. Most of them appear to be ok although 1 or 2 are puffed out some.
> 
> Ringo is holding on although I don't see how. He is puffed out twice his size and his sides visually move in and out. He is on a heating pad.
> 
> Last Sunday, Boss Hog, who is a white homing pigeon, had similar symptoms and we brought him in and put him on a heating pad in a quiet room and I gave him one dose of Baytril. Monday morning we took him to the vet. She examined him and said he had concussion (though we don't know how that could be) and gave a steroid shot. He seemed to improve slightly but I put him back on Baytril on Tuesday. His stool is extremely watery. He remains in the dining room.
> 
> The odd thing about whatever this is, is the birds continue to eat pretty good but there has been a weight loss for the 3 that appear to have it. All birds were treated in August for both worms and coccidiosis and then had a round of Probios afterwards.
> 
> I just don't know what is going on but we're trying to hang in there. Although the other birds in the other 2 aviaries are special, the ones we call our "keepers" were extra special and we love them very much.
> 
> Please remember us in your thoughts and prayers.


You might ask the vet to look for air sac mites. They look like little specks of pepper in the air sacs. Your best bet if you have a respatory problem is to use two different types of medicine at once. Some cases are almost impossible to clear up. Sometimes the problem gets into the marrow of the pigeons bones. When this happens you will not cure them. I would think twice about taking a pigeon to a vet if he said that your bird had a concussion. There are not many avian vets and sounds like the vet you went to wasn't a avian vet?
You might as well treat your pigeons yourself than to take them to a dog/cat vet. They just don't know how to treat pigeons. Check with your state university or extension agent to see if they will look at the birds. They have to kill three birds to do a necropsy on them. At the University of KY they don't charge a penny. I don't know if she is still here but at one time Dr Tuttle a renown avian pathologist was teaching at UK and doing research work. Her husband is a well know pathologist also. It will only cost a few cents to find out if they will do it.


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## george simon

*2 Years Old*

* Hi VOUTEMAN, Welcome to pigeon talk.I would like to point out to you that this thread is almost 2 years old, if you go back to post #38 you will see that Lady Tarheal did infact have extensive test done..........Read the section on comments. You will see that AVIAN PATHOLOGISTS at the College of Veterinary Medicine, at North Carolina State it was determined that a protozoal parasite was the cause of the lung damage............I would like to point out that just above the name of the person making the post you will see a date and time of the post is will tell you how old the post is. * GEORGE


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## Maggie-NC

I apologize for not responding to the last three posts. LOL, lately, things are so busy I'm lucky if I see all the threads!

Jennie, thank you for your concern. You have probably noticed by now that this happened in 2006 but because of the subject matter it was made into what we call a "sticky" so it stays visible all the time. The protozoal infection is not something we see or are able to diagnose often on the forum so it was made a sticky so members could see what the symptoms were and how we dealt with it. And, yes, it was a terrible tragedy for us particularly losing my personal favorite pigeon Simon and our dear Ringo. But, thank God, we did not lose any others.

Vouteman, thank you also for your comments. I did want to touch on the part you mentioned about vets. There are very few Certified Avian Vets in the entire US. The nearest one to us, aside from NC State University Vet School, is one city over from ours. Sadly, the vet school closed its avian clinic and no longer treats birds. As George mentioned, the pathologist is a Certified Avian Pathologist and he does confer with the vets at NC State on almost all bird necropsies. This pathologist is an employee with our NC Dept of Agriculture at their laboratory and they perform necropsies on all types of birds and animals. They charge about $5 for a necropsy and you don't have to take three bodies for a proper diagnosis.

We have immediate access to two vets, neither are certified, but both have years and years of experience with birds. In the case of Boss Hog being diagnosed with a concussion, I can't fault that particular vet because he also had symptoms that would point to that also. I just had a "gut" feeling that this was not the problem and put him back on Baytril....which I'm so glad I did. That vet, while not our main one, works with other rehabbers in our area and is very good. Our main vet has worked with us for about 14 years so I know she has a great deal of experience. My point is that I don't feel you have to have a certificate saying you are an avian vet to know what you are doing. 

George, many thanks for your response.


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## shug2213

*Pigeon Question*

Hi guys, I actually have a question that I am hoping one or many of you may be able to assist with. My mother's pigeon had a rather unfortunate accident in which a cat managed to corner it and possibly scratched the side of the pigeon's neck (my mother thinks the cat may have had the pigeon's head in its mouth). There are no bleeding marks but the feathers around the area have disappeared. What should we do? Is it a matter of keeping watch and putting anti-bacterial ointment around the area - and if so, is there a specific kind that should be used? I would appreciate any kind of advice or help.

Cheers,
shug2213


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## Feefo

The safest thing to do is to treat it with antibiotics...an amoycillin + calvunate combination is best (Synulox and Noroclav in the UK, Clavamox in the US and Canada).

This is because 90% of cats carry pasteurella in their saliva, that can be fatal to pigeons not only if they get it into their blood stream but also if they ingest it through preening.


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## shug2213

Cheers Feefo, I've called my mother (who lives in the States) and informed her what she should do; thank you replying so quickly I hope it saves this little guy's life! He is, quite literally, my mother's baby.


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## giovannini

hello my name is gio ive been a member of pigeon talk for a few mounths but i also have a case of sick birds first i notist the birds getting skinny and dripping fluied from there mouth yellow do you know what it could be.?


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## Charis

giovannini said:


> hello my name is gio ive been a member of pigeon talk for a few mounths but i also have a case of sick birds first i notist the birds getting skinny and dripping fluied from there mouth yellow do you know what it could be.?


It sounds like you may have a combination of Canker, Coccidia and worms.
How many birds do you have? 
have you ever treated them for any illness? If so what and how long ago?


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## lastninja

I wish I had ignored my 'euthanising' Lort Smith animal hospital I took my wild Rock Pigeon to 6.5 months ago. He was on a downhill path, but I think maybe he could have done a bit better if I had've had some things like basic antibiotics etc. But they said 'neurological/physical degenerative condition' and it sure ended like that.

But after all this I am so grateful for my time with him. But I don't think I would ever do it by choice, only rescue birds. Because.. 1) you need regular humaworm.com or similar treatment to clear anything YOU can give to the birds.. not to mention what the birds can give to you (pretty much EVERYONE has some form of parasite - so I mention this also that WE can give our birds the illness, yes even the cough/cold/chest infection that can kill them..). So it's risky just putting humans and birds together in numbers, unless you really aim to treat this. 

2) The absolute agony of losing the poor thing after the burden of responsibility is taken and placed upon yourself.

But to comment on possible problems with Simon.. could have yes been spraying outside.. could have been mould.. could have been just some disease on THE WIND (because airborne diseases can travel on the wind, we do not get colds in the COLD/RAIN but in the AIR), through a gap in the corner of the loft.. it is so devastating that you can't protect your family from everything.

Could have been flea outside with parasite in its blood, could have been cockroach as stated, could have been a number of insects, that potentially either a) had their own parasites, or b) had been sprayed with pesticide, or eaten roach/rat bait etc..

So for me, to reduce the anxiety, fear and pain, I must only tend to those that fate brings to me. I would love to have birds as pets but it's hard with cats. And I feel that they should be free and not to promote the pet industry. But if I find another poor little fella I will do better than this time, always better, and I will never leave them.

But it hurts so much losing those you love.

Right now I am facing the prospect of not being able to free a trapped pigeon, in plain sight in Melbourne city, that no one will probably care about enough to do what is required to free.

Opening a solid metal gate.. shouldn't be such a big deal.

I pray that I can free my little buddy. For at least SOME time free in the 'wild' urban jungle. 

The buddhists are right, universal peace is a good thing to aim for, especially when you are dealing with universal suffering.


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