# Babies not growing quickly



## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Hello all,
I am brand new to racing pigeons just got my first birds this summer. They were all YB and before I was able to separate my loft a couple paired up and my first chicks hatched 11 days ago. They seem to be about 4-5 days behind in their growth, I still can't get bands to stay on their legs. The last few days they seem to be growing on a daily basis trying to catch up and are very active, standing straight up to pester mom and dad for food. 
I was told that since they were slow to start that they are going to make my whole loft sick and I need to get rid of them. Is this true and if so what can I do or give them to prevent this.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

moonshadow13 said:


> I was told that since they were slow to start that they are going to make my whole loft sick and I need to get rid of them. Is this true and if so what can I do or give them to prevent this.


I don't see any way that two 11 day old chicks could possibly make your whole loft sick. Did the person telling you this bother to tell you what disease or problem the chicks are supposed to have?

If anything, it's the parent birds who are sick and have transmitted whatever they have to the babies. Paratyphoid (salmonellosis) is a reasonable possibility since the babies have been growing at a very slow rate. 

Do the parents feed the babies like they should and keep the crops of the babies full?

If you could post a picture or two of the babies, that might give us a bit more to go on.

Were the parents and other birds that you originally got vaccinated by the original owner or by you for the common pigeon ailments?

We need to try and figure out what the problem is (if there really is a problem and sounds like there is) and then treat for what's causing the problem.

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. How can someone tell you that, without telling you what is supposed to be wrong with the babies? Terry is right. Babies aren't just born with a disease, unless the parents are sick, in which case, they would be the ones with the disease. Pictures would be helpful.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Are you feeding the parents enough food? During breeding I let them have food 24/7.

Are they young parents? Maybe they don't know what they are doing.

Are they sick? Their poop will probably tell you--wet and stink is not good.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all!

Are they messing in their nestbowl? (pooping). Is it wet in the nestbowl?

First-off if this the case, they are not worth keeping. 

Secondly, if they are worth keeping, pop a brewers yeast tab into them for 2-3 days and see what happens.

Have you tried moistening the food with skim - milk powder which the parents can then feed to them? Yes even human baby milk powder - Nestle -Nedlac...?

Just my experiences.

white flight ZA


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi,
I will try to post pictures in a couple hours but for now to answer all your questions. 

No my friend did not tell me what they were supposed to have he just said they would kill all my breeders. 
The parents are both healthy, they had PMV Vaccine at 6 weeks then I gave them the booster 8 weeks later. I was told that we don't do the sal/pac vaccine in upstate NY. The parents ARE young bout 6-7 months old I noticed dad seemed to be better about feeding them while mom mostly just sits on them.
I have not provided food 24/7 since they were the only ones to have babies. I just learned about checking the crop last night while reading this board so I will check that when I go take the pictures.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

white flight said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Are they messing in their nestbowl? (pooping). Is it wet in the nestbowl?
> 
> ...


why would they not be worth keeping if they poop in the nest bowl?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> Hi,
> I will try to post pictures in a couple hours but for now to answer all your questions.
> 
> No my friend did not tell me what they were supposed to have he just said they would kill all my breeders.
> ...



It does sound like there may be something going on, however, since we don't know how much you're feeding them (the parents) up to this point, THAT could possibly have something to do with them not growing properly. You MUST keep feed in front of the parents at all times. They need to feed those babies all throughout the day. I forget where you are? These birds are kept where? In the house? In a loft? How much daylight are they getting? This isn't the time to even raise babies, and if the parents are only feeding them during natural daylight hours, that in itsself could be a problem. 
Usually, (not always) when there's a problem with Salmonellis, it will affect one baby and not the other. From what you are saying, both babies are behind in developement. 
And your "friend" isn't giving you the best advice, IMO.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OK. I see that you ARE new.......we've got a member that goes by Moonshadow and I was thinking that was YOU.........LOL
Guess that's why I don't know anything about you...........


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

I'm not sure how to put a picture in see if this works.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow13 said:


> I'm not sure how to put a picture in see if this works.


if you have trouble with the pic, you can email it to someone and then they can post it for you.


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Looks like the picture did not work. It asks for a web address but my pics are just in my computer?? I am only somewhat computer literate lets try something different. 

View attachment 10984


Ok I checked the crops and they just feel like loose skin. 
All are still getting fed 1/2 oz per bird twice a day. He told me not to leave extra food in there or I would get fat pigeons. 
I am in upstate NY, the birds are in a loft 10 x 10 downstairs, 10 x 4 upstairs, 6 x 8 x 4 aviary. They are only getting natural daylight. I have been told that you don't want to breed in the winter but the young ones started mating before I knew what was happening or had a chance to split the loft, (my next project) 
I had whipped off a few makeshift nest boxes because this pair already had 1 egg on the floor but since she did not lay a 2nd they just ignored it. I guess I should have just thrown these two eggs away but being new I was just too excited at the thought of having my first babies.
There is poop around the edges of the nest bowl but it looks good I think, it is dark brown from what I've read poop opinions seem to vary.
How do I give just the parents food without all the others freaking out and trying to get it? The nest boxes I built have nest fronts but not with doors that can be locked.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

They need more food, they should have food at all times, the homers I have get 1 to 2 0z a day and they do not have babies, so they(YOUR BIRDS) are starving!, you can put a small crock of feed in the nest box with them and the parents will guard it, keep it filled. you can change out the nest bowl and clean it if it gets too yucky, go feed them ASAP....NOW! I would suggest getting some dummy eggs and get your birds healthy before hatching anymore babies, wait till spring when the weather warms up.


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Should I try to hand feed the babies, if so what do I feed them? I have seen people say everything from cream of wheat to dog food.
I do plan to split the loft asap so I have no more unplanned babies. My birds are all very healthy. These two are just very young and had no older birds to show them what to do.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a link that shows normal growth of a baby, I bet they will catch up soon... http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm when they get a bit bigger they will beable to poop off the side of the nest bowl, your nest bowl just may be a bit big and the poop is staying in the bowl, but like before you can always clean it out for them.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, the babies don't look too bad to me, considering how much they are (or aren't) getting fed.
Don't know who this person is that is giving you advice, and maybe he's had pigeons longer than I've been alive......but he's full of you-know-what as far as I'm concerned. 
There is no reason for you to have FAT birds, even if you leave food in there all the time. 
If you've got 20 birds.......put down 20 ounces of food in the feeder. Then give the breeders a bowl of food in their box. KEEP food in the box.
I assume it's getting pretty cold in NY now.......I know it's cold in VA!! and all of the birds needs a bit more food through the winter. 
Having birds in the winter time is one thing, but having babies in the winter time is another story. You've GOT to feed those babies..........I don't think, (just by the picture) that it's necessary to hand feed. I think if you give the parents enough food, they'll do just fine.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

moonshadow13 said:


> Should I try to hand feed the babies, if so what do I feed them? I have seen people say everything from cream of wheat to dog food.
> I do plan to split the loft asap so I have no more unplanned babies. My birds are all very healthy. These two are just very young and had no older birds to show them what to do.


just feed the parents all they want, leave the crock/bowl in the nest box and keep it filled, they should start catching up in growth, watch the parents to make sure they are feeding them, as they were too young to start having babies, a year old is best to let them hatch and bring up young ones.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Moonshadow... all of your birds will need more food in the winter, when it's cold, to keep them warm and give them energy. They also need more food in warmer months than you were told to give them. Please disregard the advise given you by your friend. All though he may have meant well, he is incorrect.
I feel so bad those babies have been starving and you were doing the best you could but given wrong advise.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Charis said:


> Moonshadow... all of your birds will need more food in the winter, when it's cold, to keep them warm and give them energy. They also need more food in warmer months than you were told to give them. Please disregard the advise given you by your friend. All though he may have meant well, he is incorrect.
> I feel so bad those babies have been starving and you were doing the best you could but given wrong advise.


Charis....you are so right! Moonshadow13...........I may be a little biased, but you have now found THE BEST of THE BEST when it comes to info on pigeons.....every aspect. And be assured, that if any member tells you anything that is wrong, they'll be corrected pretty quickly.
Guess I shouldn't have said what I said about your "friend"....but it's a little disconserting when you see babies starving and there's no reason for it.
Just stick with us..............we'll help you see those babies feathered and thriving in no time flat.........


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

I just went out there to give all more food and put a dish of food in the nest box and one of the BABIES DIED right before my eyes!!! And the other one looks weak!! What can I do to save that one.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> I just went out there to give all more food and put a dish of food in the nest box and one of the BABIES DIED right before my eyes!!! And the other one looks weak!! What can I do to save that one.


BRing the baby in the house ASAP.....put on heating pad (pad covered with towel) and tell us what you have in the house to feed the baby. Are you SURE that the other baby is dead?


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Never mind now they are both dead!!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Are you SURE?


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

They were cold to the touch


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OK. If you didn't SEE them die.........go bring them both in the house RIGHT NOW and get them on a heating pad...........Many times they "appear" dead but they aren't............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

If they are truly dead....of course there's nothing you can do.........but trying to warm them up and bring them back works sometimes......I've done it a few times............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You don't want to warm them up too quickly. If there's still life in them, it will take about 20 to 30 minutes for them to start waking up. 
Put them in a small container, like a margarine bowl or something.....set the bowl on the heathing pad then cover them lightly with a towel and just let them get warmed up............IF this brings them back, you're going to have to finish raising them I expect. I believe it's too cold to return them to the loft.........but let us know how this goes first. First things first..........


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

OH MY GOD!! It is working at least one is coming back to life!! I can't believe it he was cold and definately not breathing!! So hand feeding, I saw the link on here where someone made a feeder with a syringe with a cloth on the end, I CAN DO THAT but what to put in it- I have Plain Oatmeal, eggs, milk, dog food, bird seed. I don't know what other house hold items are OK to feed them.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> OH MY GOD!! It is working at least one is coming back to life!! I can't believe it he was cold and definately not breathing!! So hand feeding, I saw the link on here where someone made a feeder with a syringe with a cloth on the end, I CAN DO THAT but what to put in it- I have Plain Oatmeal, eggs, milk, dog food, bird seed. I don't know what other house hold items are OK to feed them.


Can you get to a store like Pets Mart and buy some hand rearing formula? Today? That would be the best to feed them.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

This is what you really need.
http://www.petco.com/product/10053/Kaytee-Exact-Hand-Feeding-Formula-for-All-Baby-Birds.aspx


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

moonshadow13 said:


> OH MY GOD!! It is working at least one is coming back to life!! I can't believe it he was cold and definately not breathing!! So hand feeding, I saw the link on here where someone made a feeder with a syringe with a cloth on the end, I CAN DO THAT but what to put in it- I have Plain Oatmeal, eggs, milk, dog food, bird seed. I don't know what other house hold items are OK to feed them.


You can rub the babies and put them inside your shirt, close to your skin.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's some videos on feeding baby pigeons. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_wCjIduGN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bin7rhSLQss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y26s98QJzFs


Here's the way I do it.........a little more time consuming, but it works for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJe6y8EYQRg


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

I can't get anywhere till later tonight and he looks like he is barely hanging on. So do I have anything on that list that will give him some nutrition?? I am pretty sure the other is staying dead he looks kinda bloated and puffy around his neck. How long do I keep the one who is hanging in there on the heating pad


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> I can't get anywhere till later tonight and he looks like he is barely hanging on. So do I have anything on that list that will give him some nutrition?? I am pretty sure the other is staying dead he looks kinda bloated and puffy around his neck. How long do I keep the one who is hanging in there on the heating pad


OH, he needs to stay on the heating pad for a few days until he gets some feathers. You could give the baby some oatmeal I guess. That wouldn't hurt anything. Just make it soupy cause even though he's 11 days old, he's still behind, so we need to treat him like he's around 7 days old or so. Do you have the syringe?


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

There is one place locally that has something called chick starter but they couldn't tell me anything about it?? I do have a syringe I saw the link on here "Hungry pigeon" and started to make one just like it.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> There is one place locally that has something called chick starter but they couldn't tell me anything about it?? I do have a syringe I saw the link on here "Hungry pigeon" and started to make one just like it.


The chick starter would be ok I think as long as it's not medicated. I don't know that much about chickens and the feed they eat. That would get you by until you could get some Kaytee..........If you can't go get the chick starter now, I'd go ahead with the oatmeal. You really need to get some food in the baby as long as it's warmed up enough. When he starts peeping and crying, you'll know. If he's still a bit cold, then the food might not process correctlly and you'll have a whole new set of problems.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm told that the chick starter is crumbled up powdery stuff, so of course you'd have to add water to it to make a mush out of it. You could also add a tiny bit of plain yogurt to whatever you're feeding to help with the digestion and keep things "moving"........


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Oh the ups and downs!! Well he was breathing and moving a little but it seems he has died AGAIN  and yeah I'm sure this time, he is getting stiff.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> Oh the ups and downs!! Well he was breathing and moving a little but it seems he has died AGAIN  and yeah I'm sure this time, he is getting stiff.


OH, I'm sorry.  He's still on the heating pad? You've done all you can do now......if he doesn't revive with the heat, then he's probably gone.


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## moonshadow13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Renee,
Wow I just realized I've watched your videos on youtube. It was your video that I watched over and over learning how to band these babies. Thank you all who answered for your help though I wish I had asked here sooner, my babies would still be alive. I'm sure I will be starting many more threads to try and sort out whether all the information I have been given by my friend is good or bad. Because boy do I have lots of questions now!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry the babies didn't make it. Thanks to all our members who were here to try and help and thank you, moonshadow13, for being willing to listen to them and doing what you could to save the babies.

Terry


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sorry they did not make it, you tried......


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

moonshadow13 said:


> Renee,
> Wow I just realized I've watched your videos on youtube. It was your video that I watched over and over learning how to band these babies. Thank you all who answered for your help though I wish I had asked here sooner, my babies would still be alive. I'm sure I will be starting many more threads to try and sort out whether all the information I have been given by my friend is good or bad. Because boy do I have lots of questions now!!!


Well, the best thing you can do is learn from this I guess. No matter how hard we try, ALL of them can't be saved. We can only do our best. At least you know now where to come for GOOD advice. 
Any by the way......Welcome to Pigeon Talk......wish you had come under better circumstances........


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## Ahab (Apr 20, 2008)

man i wish you the best this sounds sooo sad. i have had his happen to me many many times and it doesnt get easier.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I am sorry to hear the news. Wish you posted earlier before the symptom of starvation/hypothermia started. The parents may still be too young to breed. Because it is cold in your area, did you notice whether the parents actually cuddled with the babies before hand?

Yes, ask advice here instead of that "expert" you consulted. This will be a tragic lesson for you. When birds act sick, they are really sick.


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## white flight (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi there!

All strong, healthy squabs will be able to lift their backsides up to poop outside or as close to the rim of the nestbowl as soon as possible when they start getting more digestable food from their parents, no longer pigeon milk - as this contains hardly any waste to be "pooped!"

If they can't do this at a young age, how healthy and strong are they going to be when they are weaned at 28 days old?

Ask others, observe other young - see for yourself!

white flight ZA


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