# RSPCA's refusal to help multilated pigeons



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Lesley has two pigeons now, she says that the damage looks as if it has been done with pliers as Maggie suggested.

She can see three more but hasn't been able to catch them yet.

The RSPCA's refusal to even recognise this atrocity is unforgivable. I hope that everyone that has read the thread will do what they can to ensure that this appalling incident is properly investigated and that the RSPCA's refusal to help is exposed.

I was going to suggest that we write to the patron of the RSPCA but that is HM the Queen...need I say any more?

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cynthia,

What a horrible autrocity, shame on the RSPCA for not seeing this as such.

Let us know if there is anything we can do from here.

 I can't imagine there is a person out there doing this horrific act of incredible mutulation, they need to be stopped immediately, if not sooner.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This whole story just made me so sick and angry. I am not a violent person but I would be one if I had this monster in front of me.
Anything we can do frome here? Let us know.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, is there any hope for these two precious babies that Lesley has? God have mercy on them. Do you think the "Q" would even see any letter that we wrote. Would we address it to her majesty, buckingham palace, London?

What I am hearing about the RSPCA is unbelievable. To think that a society that is supposed to care for all creatures would totally ignore this atrocity is beyond belief. It is almost like they just don't care anymore.

Thursday night I could not get to sleep until nearly 2 am worrying about this. Last night I awoke about 1 am and think I had been dreaming about this because I couldn't go back to sleep. It makes me sick.

Maggie


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Lesley has two pigeons now, she says that the damage looks as if it has been done with pliers as Maggie suggested.
> 
> She can see three more but hasn't been able to catch them yet.
> 
> ...


Hi Cynthia,
Thank you for the update.
And just when you think things couldn't get any worse.   

Bless Lesley for what she is doing. This must be so incredibly heart wrenching for her. I am just so sorry.

Cindy


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Rspca*

Cynthia,

I have just e-mailed the RSPCA for what it is worth and will advise of any reply... 

I detail below my e-mail which hopefully is near to the facts although I'm not quite sure how many birds are affected - I have said 15.

_Dear RSPCA,

I am distressed to hear that the RSPCA are refusing to assist with the collection and investigation of cruelty to some mutilated pigeons in Middleton Town Centre. The local paper have just published an article on how some of the pigeons have well, basically half their head missing after being mutilated by what looks like pliers.....

The sight of the pigeons is extremely distressing as they have no beaks or front of face and can not eat nor drink and are slowly starving. I know other people have also tried to contact you regarding this with little joy.

Somebody has been deliberately cruel to these pigeons and you are the RSPCA ( Royal Society for the Prevenetion of Cruelty to Animals) so why, oh why, can you not assist with this.

One poor lady, Lesley, is singled handedly trying to round the birds up but there are about 15 and she has only caught 2 so far.

I would be grateful if you would explain to me why you feel that this is not your concern and why you won't help. Some monster is doing this to these birds and they are suffering.

I look forward to hearing from you._

Poor Lesley what a great job she is doing - I hope that some bystanders are helping her too. It is too awful.

Dare I say I do a very small donation to the RSPCA each month but I shall be cancelling this and I shall be telling them why too.

Tania


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if we could verify that any of the birds were, in fact, banded then that could go a very long way in that battle, I think. As bad as it is to us who don't care whether the victims are feral or domestic, most others would turn a blind eye if the affected birds were only feral.

Anyhow, Cynthia, if you can get a really good close-up picture of the ones we have in hand, we might can better formulate some options for reconstructive and/or adaptive strategies. 

It may also be a lot easier to get the public eye and attention if we set up a programme of continued care with donations as though it were an established charity. When there's enough testimony from authoritative sources like vets to say that it was definitely an act of cruelty, then you can fight the belief that it's a disease. People do not like to face the fact that it could have been done by a "someone" so they'll hang on to the idea that it's something outside their control and, therefore, responsibility. And, thus, they'll cling to any "authority" that tells them what they want to hear quite doggedly if any doubt can be maintained.

I will donate to the care of these birds myself if the decision is made to keep and care for them. And, if need be, I'll try to assemble the best materials that I have and can acquire about the anatomy and articulation of the lower mandible and reconstructive surgeries of that type if a vet can be inspired to make a go of it and needs information (they don't all have stuff like that, you know). Since one of my vets is the current president of the AAV, it just might be possible to get the most up-to-date stuff available this way.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Perhaps some international exposure is in order here. 
My God, this act of cruelty would have to touch even those with half a heart.

I realize it's not 'confirmed' as to exactly what has happened, however given the information & photo that Cynthia & Diane & Lesley have presented would be a good start for a heart wrenching editorial, etc., for all news papers.

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Quick update. Just spoken to Lesley (who caught them), and she tells me that Helen (our Nooti) has them and is taking them - or has now taken them - to her vet friend. 

Laura told me yesterday she'd be available this weekend for them. She is exactly the right vet for this - she has worked tirelessly to treat injured or sick pigeons, has worked on at least two that we have in the aviary, and has even transported pigeons between Helen and us.

Diane saw another, but was not able to catch it (still enough stamina left to fly). She said that it could not - of course - eat, but somehow had managed to drink by immersing its face in a big puddle of water (it is pretty snowy up there, still, today).

We are putting these folks (Lesley and Diane) in touch with each other by phone to hopefully team up. Spoke to Diane's husband, who is equally outraged and is supporting any efforts of Diane's to help them.

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thank you for the recent update John. 

I realize it's a 'no brainer', but I wanted to commend all of you for your continued 'team' effort to see that these poor babies are tended to. 

Cindy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Anyone who places any confidence in the SPCA of whatever national orgin, will surely have it misplaced. The mentally ill person will be allowed to graduate to higher life forms, before any action is taken. Unfortnately, they sometimes make it all the way to humans, before they are caught.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Anyone who places any confidence in the SPCA of whatever national orgin, will surely have it misplaced. The mentally ill person will be allowed to graduate to higher life forms, before any action is taken. Unfortnately, they sometimes make it all the way to humans, before they are caught.


Spot on, Warren. I'm just hoping that the reporter I spoke with - and to whom I made that very point - will do some badgering of the police there. Heck, forensic psychology is standard enough now that such a graduation can simply not be ignored.

John


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

John and everyone,

I'm so sorry that the people who are supposed to help are not responsive, so far. Hats off to you, Cynthia, Laura, Helen, Lesley, Diane (and anyone I may have inadvertantly left out) for putting yourselves out there to help.

The only thing I would say if you guys are trying to get publicity is PICTURES!!! Looking at the picture that was posted here is like a getting a sucker punch to the gut. It's that shocking. Any publicity with pictures or video (especially closeups of these poor birds mutilated faces) would be sure to get some reaction, I would think. I think even people who don't particularly care for pigeons would be appalled about this, especially if they can see exactly what it looks like. I know for myself, someone who loves them, I was of course very upset by the post at the beginning of this thread. But then actually SEEING it made it a thousand times worse.

Good luck and best wishes to all of you and thank you again.

Linda


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Lin Hansen said:


> The only thing I would say if you guys are trying to get publicity is PICTURES!!! Looking at the picture that was posted here is like a getting a sucker punch to the gut.


Yep, you're right Lin. Helen will be taking pictures. We do indeed need that, and a report from Laura about the condition and cause, as solid evidence of a horrific wildlife crime that no-one can dispute.

John


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Thank you John*

John, thank you so much for doing what you can do for these poor pigeons. Your calling the RSPCA, the police and the reporter has really pushed this along. 

Also thanks to all others involved, Lesley, Diane ( of course as if it had not been for Diane then we would have been none the wiser about this awful thing), Laura, Helen and Cynthia. 

I feel a bit useless but I have e-mailed the RSPCA ( as said previously) and have now just e-mailed the Greater Manchester Police - it's a bit "armchair" action, but I just feel I need to do something. 

When I was feeding the ferals in Richmond today, every single one of them looked so well and fit and I thanked God that I didn't have to see what those folks in Middleton have to see.

As has been stated previously, these type of people who do these despicable things to defenceless creatures, will in time escalate their violence to bigger animals and then who knows, children, humans...... The police and the RSPCA should act now.

Hopefully with the photographic evidence a case can be built and some publicity aired.

Tania


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

OK - here is what you've obviously been waiting for - our report.
It is as we feared, a deliberate act of cruelty.
These poor two which Lesley brought me have been put to sleep as they had no chance whatsoever of recovery. All their beaks had gone - just the tongue left which had by now dried up and shrivelled.
Once we put them to sleep we examined them both. The matted feathers around the beak were covered with dried blood which indicates injury. We wiped this all away with damp cotton wool. Underneath we can see a clear cut straight line indicating that these beaks were cut off with either very sharp scissors or wire cutters.
When we plucked the tiny feathers away from the cut edges we can see that the tissue is healthy and was even bleeding, indicating that there is no sign of disease at all, this was a delberate mutilation so the RSPCA haven't got a leg to stand on here. Both Laura and I are in complete agreement and will stake our reputations on this.
I have photos but they are horrific and have no place here. Anyone who would like to see them please email me privately on [email protected]


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Lin Hansen said:


> John and everyone,
> 
> I'm so sorry that the people who are supposed to help are not responsive, so far. Hats off to you, Cynthia, Laura, Helen, Lesley, Diane (and anyone I may have inadvertantly left out) for putting yourselves out there to help.
> 
> ...


You are so right Linda, seeing it, made this terrible feeling that was already brewing in our hearts a thousand times worse. I knew it was bad, but I could not even imagine the horrific degree that these poor little birds were suffering.

Feather


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Helen. I hope that what goes around comes around over and over and over again in this case.

Can you send a copy of the photograph and your report to the Wildlife Police and the RSPCA? For anyone else who wants to write to the RSPCA the contact details are at this link: 

http://www.rspca-man-sal.org.uk/CONTACTS.htm

These are the contact numbers for the Wildlife Police in the Greater Manchester area:

http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/pages/GMPWildlifeContacts.htm

Were both the pigeons feral?

Maggie, I will be writing to the Queen, these are the contact details:

There are various ways to contact The Queen.

_You can write to Her Majesty at the following address:
Her Majesty The Queen
Buckingham Palace
London SW1A 1AA 

You can also email The Queen the website http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page249.asp.

Please note that, due to the volume of messages received by e-mail, it is impossible to provide individual replies. If your message is personal or sensitive, or you would like to receive a reply, you should write to The Queen at the above address._

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

As regards the RSPCA and their ignorance and inaction, I think the Charities Commission (who have influence over charities, and whether they are what they purport to be, I believe) could also be a potential target .

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thank you Helen, for your recent update, as hard as it must have been to post.

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Helen - our thanks to you and to Laura, who I know was officially off duty, for giving these birds release and getting the evidence which, aside from observation by our members, has not been available to stir action.

John


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This confirmation of our worst fears is just sickening. Thank you to all the dedicated and caring folks in the U.K. who have gone to such lengths to end the suffering of these pitiful birds. Let's all give them all the support we can.

Helen, I'm sure many of us are interested in seeing the pictures you and Laura took. Perhaps you could put them on your website or send them to me, and I will put them on mine. That way we could just post a link to the photos here and those who are interested could have a look. Might save you a lot of private e-mails.

This whole thing just makes me ill.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks to all of our members and caring/concerned folks in England for all of the
time, effort and hard, very hard work involved here. Helen, the report is chilling but needed. I will put something together in MS Word and copy and paste into emails today for all of the email links that you've provided, Cynthia.

It seems that several people have mentioned bands on some of these pigeons,
and I can't help but wonder if some pigeons were removed from lofts set on fire before the actual torching. This psychopath needs to come to the attention of the Queen, I can't believe that she wouldn't use the full power of her position to come to bear on the agencies and police to do what they should have already begun to do.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I have just e-mailed the following to the RSPCA.

"I have been made aware of an unbelievable act of cruelty being imposed on pigeons in Manchester, England. It is my understanding that your society has been made aware of these acts where someone is obviously cutting off the beaks of pigeons and leaving them to starve to death. Can you not imagine the awful pain and suffering these pigeons are going through, not only from the pain of having their beaks removed, but slowly starving to death and not being able to even understand how or why this is being done to them.'

Why can't your society, which is supposed to condemn acts such as this, do something to help these pigeons and help find out who is doing it. Are you just "a name only" and choose to close your eyes, ears and mind to what is happening These are living creatures that suffer enough hardships simply to survive without being subjected to intentional harm.'

Yes, I am a pigeon advocate and I am proud of it. They are wonderful little birds. So, please, please, please, do step in and try to help end the suffering of those already damaged and try to prevent any more from being damaged."

I couldn't find an e-mail address for the police department. 

Maggie

............................................................................................................................
Just checked my e-mails. This came in 9:08 am today:

From: RSPCA Manchester & Salford <[email protected]>

Hi

You are one of the many concerned people who have contacted us about this. The local Inspector has been out on a few occasions and managed to catch a few birds. Others had gone when she arrived but please don't think that nothing is being done as we will act on any information we receive to stop this happening and prosecute those responsible.

Thanks again,
Julie Threlfall


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Photos*

Helen has sent me the photos and they are posted at http://www.rims.net/PigeonBeak these are truly horrific, so look at your own risk.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Terry, I have looked at the pictures and they are almost more than I can bear. I debated doing it but I feel that if these wonderful little creatures endured this agony then I could endure seeing them. It is, by far, worse than I could ever imagine. I am just sick.

Maggie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terry, 


Thanks for posting the pictures...they really are horrific I just can't believe the act of cruelty involved here. Those poor, poor pigeons and the person(s) who did this is a monster!

I'm glad that these pigeons were euthanized, they must have been in agony when the "act" took place then to have not been able to eat or drink is the worst. They are at peace now and free from all that horrible pain and from being deprived of the basics in life.

Helen, thank you for ending the suffering of these most unfortunate birds.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I have cross posted to my other bird related lists asking members there to review these threads on Pigeon-Talk and to e-mail, write, and/or call the given contacts. Have also sent them the link to the photos. 

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Maggie, your e-mail was so moving, thank you.

What is terrifying me is that this person is out there. This was not just one random act of cruelty, it was systematic and repetitive.

I have got the photos and Helen says I can use them...which I will.

Poor, poor babies!

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Folks, 

I don't really know what can be done or how successful anyone in the UK will be in apprehending the perpetrators but all the publicity worries me a bit. I just hope that some other sicko isn't going to read about this and start a rash of similar, copycat crimes elsewhere.

Best of luck to all the people involved in doing whatever you can to find who is responsible and get these poor pigeons captured and euthanized. To me, there is nothing worse than a creature starving to death slowly. 

My grandmother died from complications after a surgery to repair an aneurism near her stomach. She was unable to eat and slowly starved to death over a period of months in the hospital and no human or animal should ever have to suffer that


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I have emailed the Charities Commission, giving the salient details, and requested that they take a look at the activities of the RSPCA, particulalry when this is sheer failure to do what their charitable status is built on.

Doubt it'll do any good - I think the CC is more about whether organisations are being run according to the laws governing charities - but the more 'noise' the better.

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I just looked at the photos, horrifying, apalling, no words to express the pain of seeing them. And then the realization that I'd taken a step into the depraved mind of the person that subjected these birds to this ghastly condition. Too close to this person's depraved mind for comfort. He needs immediate confinement--indefinitely. I'm having a hard time believing there is a soul attached to this person's body.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*More Info From Helen*

Helen is having some technical difficulties getting onto the P-T site and just sent this additional information:

_Forgot to mention on the site that one of the pigeons showed more healing around the cut edges than the other. Also, this bird was much thinner, indicating that it had its beak cut earlier than the second one who in my opinion had been mutilated more recently - no more than 2 days ago. The first one cut was probably about 5 days ago. Seems this may be an ongoing thing - not all done at once_.

Terry


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

O.K. upon Maggie's lead this is my email to the RSPCA. Good cop...bad cop

To whom it may Concern,

I have just witnessed the most horrific act of cruelty that I have ever seen in my life. I know that you have been made aware of this, and I can not figure out why nothing has been done about it. The donations that you receive to protect animals should go to the private citizens that are out there trying to capture these poor birds to keep them from suffering. For many years I have heard of how great your organization was and how it was founded. Well, any organization that could turn a cheek to this type of mutilation bestowed on an animal, is not great at all, is it? The world is watching! Pictures of those birds are all over internet, now get in there and do your job. I am going to call the NBC news here in California. Maybe they can get someone to step in and stop this madman from hurting anymore animals.

Concerned onlooker in the United States
Linda Escalante


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

> I don't really know what can be done or how successful anyone in the UK will be in apprehending the perpetrators but all the publicity worries me a bit. I just hope that some other sicko isn't going to read about this and start a rash of similar, copycat crimes elsewhere.


You have a valid point, Brad, and I think someone here or elsewhere also voiced that. The thing is, the newspaper there has already published its story, with views of it being deliberate mutilation expressed therein. Who knows, maybe this perp is actually a copycat who happened to see the previous story from 3 years back? 

I guess it is like the recent story here of a dog being tied up and burned to death - there is a possibility other sickos may copy it, but on the other hand public reports can also turn up chance witnesses.

It's a tough call indeed.

Feather: that is a telling message to them. We've seen before how people sometimes sit up when they get mail from a few 1000 miles away!

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

*Thanks Terry -*

That makes it even more urgent that the 'authorities' act. This explains why some of the birds are still quite active. I would expect most of the original ones will have perished by now 

John


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi John, 

Yes, I guess it's worth the risks of publicizing the events then because it's more important to try to get the person(s). There are all kinds of cruel things done to animals and anyone has a chance to read about them then possibly go out and do the same thing. Pigeons are hated more than many other animals though and certainly get a lot less respect than cats or dogs. Therefore, the chances of another sick person going out and doing the same, might be higher than with atrocities done to other animals.

Let's just hope that this problem gets sorted out and that no more pigeons are found mutilated


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

What I just got from the RSPCA is that "there is an inspector dealing with it" and my concern would be passed on, and I would be called. The operative said "They don't usually call back until there is a finished outcome" whatever she means by 'finished'.

We shall see.

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Folks,
> I don't really know what can be done or how successful anyone in the UK will be in apprehending the perpetrators but *all the publicity worries me a bit. I just hope that some other sicko isn't going to read about this and start a rash of similar, copycat crimes elsewhere.*


Hi Brad,
Chuck & I were just discussing this possibility when he called to see how things were going with the poor pijjies.

It's almost a 'damned if you do & damned if you don't' situation going on here.

Cindy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I have just come in after being gone all day. I read through the posts here very quickly and saw the pictures. Some of the most horrible things I've ever seen. I just thank god that at least these two are not suffering any longer. I think that at one time someone said that these were banded racers? Is that true?


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I think that we need the publicity more than not. When a Serial Killer is stalking people, after the first 3 victims it is publisized. How many dangerous people has America'a most wanted captured just by getting the information out to caring citizens. A whole neighborhood in LA caught the night stalker, just by being informed. It has been kept quiet up until now and more birds have fallen victim everyday. I think it is time to start screaming.

I could be very wrong about this and do respect everyones opinion.
I have never been confronted with anything such as this, and really don't know how to act except cry.

Feather


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Lovebirds - one or more racers have been spotted amongst the victims, but we don't know if they just happened to be dropped racers living feral or 'active' ones

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

At first I was also afraid that publicity would encourage copy cats, but Helen has confirmed that this horror is still happening. We have to get the police to act and can only light a fire under them through publicity.

Thank God for this forum which has gathered pigeon lovers together.
Without our network there would be Diane trying to fight on all fronts at once.


Cynthia


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

I just read this thread.. and the pictures.. I am at a total loss for words....  sick...and horrible ..... I have seen a lot of things, but ... I can't even type anymore...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This isn't going to be an easy person to catch unless someone witnesses it. That's what the public outcry really needs to focus on--getting enough people aware to want to catch him at it. It would be nice to know how these birds were initially caught--if they're easy-to-grab park pigeons then the regulars of said parks need to start watching and remembering. It could also be someone with an outdoor feeder and trap. 

It would seem logical to me to mark all the locations on a map that these birds are found. Since the article posted in the other thread mentioned taxi drivers' testimonies, they'd be good people to question and enlist to be on the lookout for hurt birds and they utilize a radio network anyway.

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> At first I was also afraid that publicity would encourage copy cats, but Helen has confirmed that this horror is still happening. We have to get the police to act and can only light a fire under them through publicity.
> 
> Thank God for this forum which has gathered pigeon lovers together.
> Without our network there would be Diane trying to fight on all fronts at once.
> ...


Before I shut down my computer this evening, I would just like to say that although I have witnessed one of the most heinous crimes committed against an animal, that I have also witnessed something wonderful. 

Our members from the UK really need to be commended for the speed in which they all rallied around Diane to take a devastating burden off her shoulders, and, how fast they provided us with the proper links and current information. I just think that Cynthia, John, Leslie, Nooti Tania and Poo are quite amazing.

Good Night Everyone,
Feather


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Bless all of you in the U.K. who are doing everything to help. The pictures made me cry. I think of how I love and care for all my birds and it's incomprehensible to me how someone could do that to a pigeon. It's beyond sickening. It just turns my stomach that this monster is still out there and is apparently continuing his campaign of mutilating pigeons. I pray he will be stopped.

I've read in news stories on Racing Homer sites that the Queen is herself a racing pigeon fancier. Perhaps she will be more sympathetic than one might think. By all means, let's appeal to her. 

In addition to publicity, what would help is some kind of reward for anyone who turns this guy in. If we finally manage to light a fire under the RSPCA's butt is there any chance they'll offer a reward for information on the perpetrator? Or could _we _somehow raise some reward money for information leading to this guy's arrest? I'd certainly be willing to donate. 

BTW, what is the penalty for animal cruelty in the U.K.? Here in the U.S. people can do jail time and pay stiff fines if convicted of animal cruelty. Assume it is similar there.


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Oh, this burns me up! I am writing them too, Cynthia do you mind giving us the address or E-Mail of these ------s! Thank you Rena


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Cynthia, could you please E-Mail me those pictures, and exactly what is going on, I only picked up peices and it burned me. I would like to send to different news organization. Thank you, Rena [email protected] Including Animal Planet! Since they always have SPCA on, I would like to know what they would have to say.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Feather said:


> The world is watching! Pictures of those birds are all over internet, now do your job. I am going to call the NBC news here in California. Maybe they can get someone to step in and stop this madman from hurting anymore animals.
> 
> Linda Escalante


Nice Work Feather. I just fired off an E-mail too expressing my disgust about the inaction of the RSPCA. Thanks to whoever put up the E-mail address of the RSPCA and others. I agree with your comments about going public with this too. 

Afterall, if any one of us witnessed an attack against a person we would not hesitate to report it. Because we know that such incidents are committed by individuals, not whole societies. These are not people who read papers or the internet or are out planning to copycat anything at all. Their illness comes fom within and can only be dealt with through the quick wits, sharp minds and active voices of people like ourselves. 

This thing lives in darkness. It is small and it is a very tiny minority that can be dealt with expeditiously. We can only combat it by putting a torch to the indecency of what is happening. Bright lights and public awareness will put an end to this situation. Bad things happen everyday and if we hope that they will go away by avoiding discussing them then we are badly mistaken. If we are afraid that by simply talking about it the situation will worsen then the battle is already lost. May as well just give up, go away and hope it gets better on it's own right? Gee, maybe it's a self curing illness..... Not!

You are right on the money with your thoughts Feather. This needs media play. The more the better. Even die-hard pigeon haters will be disgusted by this story. It is off the scale.

John, if you are willing to start up a fund or a reward to discover this person's identity I will contribute. Even if it's only a small symbolic fund. Perhaps my 20 pounds from Canada will let people all over England know that I am disgusted and am prepared to help to bring this criminal to justice. Let me know what you think. I am surely not alone here. (if no one is caught, you may keep the 20 lbs to help with your 9 new pijjies)

All the best to you and to everyone in England who is working on this case.

Cameron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

JMO, but I think this person could have experience of pigeons...even our own members would have trouble catching that number of healthy pigeons and holding them still while carrying out such a specific mutilation.

As for identifying him, if it is a thug or a group of thugs he will be bragging about what he has done.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*E-mail power*

As previously posted we have had some information as to whom may possibly be responsible, but the source of the information is unknown and until we can establish further facts from certain other sources we can not really say whether this information is accurate or not, but this information has been forwarded to the RSPCA and the Police as "annonymous" and a possible line of enquiry for this henious crime.

I would just like to THANKS everyone at Pigeons.com for helping with this awful situation. Although I am in the UK, I am too far away to be "hands on" with trying to catch the birds, but as all you lovely people overseas know the "power of the pen is mightier than the sword" ( sounds a bit distatesful I know in these circumstances)



re92346mos said:


> Oh, this burns me up! I am writing them too, Cynthia do you mind giving us the address or E-Mail of these ------s! Thank you Rena



Cynthia has already kindly advised the e-mail address of the Manchester branch of the RSPCA but I list below a couple of links for the RSPCA main HQ and the GMP.

Manchester RSPCA [email protected]

RPSPCA HQ - http://rspca.org.uk
You need to go Contact ( bottom left hand corner) then Web Enquiry - Click here and you will need to register with a user name and password but once you have done that you can post a complaint and they should get back to you - may take a few days or a week but at least if we are all bombarding them with these emails they have to listen up and do somthing

The police - again there is no actual e-mail facility about this but if you go to this link http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/feedback.htm&dept=Acts/Police/Schemes

you can make a web enquiry and again it is a way of getting an electronic message through to them even if it is not through the correct channel. If the police do decide to investigate and we all know this could take weeks and months etc. if enough people are contacting them about this then hopefully thay will take this seriously.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH - lets hope and pray that Lesley ( and Diane?) are successful today in catching a few more of these poor creatures. 

Tania


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Heres what I wrote them and am waiting for response, then I am still contacting people in media and organizations.---------------------------- Your reference number is: 1141562203
Thank you for your enquiry.

Our response to your enquiry will be available to view via My RSPCA on the Society's website in due course.

To login to My RSPCA go to: http://www.rspca.org.uk/myrspca 

Thanks and regards
RSPCA

The contents of your enquiry are displayed below:

I am appauld that this is called a Cruelty to animals Organization and you all have been notified about these pigeons being mutilated and refuse to do anything. I would like to know exactly why before I contact the media, if you would like to see these pictures of these suffering birds contact me at my E-Mail and I will be glad to show you if you havent already seen them. Rena Bailey-NPA Member-American Racing Pigeon Union Member-911PigeonAlert Moderator


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Good for you Rena*

 Scary message but to the point - it is a shame that we can't attach pictures to the messages but let's hope they take notice. Thank for taking the time to contact them.

Regards

Tania


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Tania when I am mad thats how I talk just right to the point. Beleive me I am not a mean person. I just hate things happening like that, and they are claiming to be there to protect! Thats more than cruelty, thats some nut torturing these birds! We will see, Rena


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*E-mail incorrect*

Sorry all,

I have misquoted the e-mail address for the local RSPCA office.

To reconfirm the addresses to contact they are:-

Manchester RSPCA [email protected]

RSPCA HQ - http://rspca.org.uk
You need to go Contact ( bottom left hand corner) then Web Enquiry - Click here and you will need to register with a user name and password but once you have done that you can post a complaint and they should get back to you - may take a few days or a week but at least if we are all bombarding them with these emails they have to listen up and do somthing

The police - again there is no actual e-mail facility about this but if you go to this link http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/fe...Police/Schemes

Tania


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I spoke to Rochdale police and the GMP control room, and an officer there found me an unpublished email address to which I was able to forward information about similar cruelty 3 years ago. 

This information was elicited from a 'pigeon person' in the area by our Tania ("Kittypaws") to whom I'm most grateful for rooting out someone whose observations may be useful.

For valid reasons, it would be difficult to put the actual statement in the 'public domain', but the gist of it was: 

an individual who is (I believe) connected with the racing fraternity states that he saw, 3 years ago, two men shooting pigeons and debeaking injured pigeons, in that area. He confronted them, and they claimed to be [let us say for now] some kind of pest controllers. It seems that something unstated probably ensued, since these men apparently called the police, who told our informant to move on [seemingly because they were satisfied about these peoples' legitimacy] and then went away, whilst the two men left the area.

I have passed the actual statement onto the police for investigation.

It is a very strange story, and unverifiable, but Tania and I agree that there is no good reason to doubt her informant. 

I wonder, now, if the individual who was witnessed mutilating a pigeon 3 years or so back (as reported in the local news at the time), may have actually been set off by seeing some birds in that condition.

It is all something of a mystery right now, but I think the police dept concerned should be left to follow this particular line of enquiry up - though any of us, as concerned persons, may quite justifiably contact them regarding the CURRENT occurrences.

John

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There's actually an email link at the Greater Manchester Police website that will
allow you to write an email directly to the Chief Constable, Michael J Todd which I've posted in the Broken Beak thread. Here it is again:

http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/pages/aboutgmp.htm

I think it's important to get to the top folks w/our complaints so that they don't bump around in the lower eschelons and get buried w/beaurocratic blunders.
Because of the Queen's involvement w/RSPCA, love of animals in general and pigeons specifically, I also shot one off to her w/a link to the pics. Is it possible to post the autopsy report along side the pictures so that there is one link to give when writing the letters that says it all??

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

```
"JMO, but I think this person could have experience of pigeons...even our own members would have trouble catching that number of healthy pigeons and holding them still while carrying out such a specific mutilation.

As for identifying him, if it is a thug or a group of thugs he will be bragging about what he has done."
```
Cynthia, I agree. My gut feeling is that the perpetrator is someone who has pigeons or has access to them. I also think someone like this would brag about what he's done. That's why I think a monetary reward might cause his low-life friends to turn on him.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Oh I agree. People like this usually have plenty of enemies. I would bet one of his pub-mates would turn him in for the price of a few mugs and do it happily too. If the local paper publishes a reward it'll be over in a day.

Cameron


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

> John, if you are willing to start up a fund or a reward to discover this person's identity I will contribute. Even if it's only a small symbolic fund. Perhaps my 20 pounds from Canada will let people all over England know that I am disgusted and am prepared to help to bring this criminal to justice. Let me know what you think. I am surely not alone here.


Hi Cameron,

That could have the right effect. "Information leading to the conviction of...." would be how it's expressed here, I expect.

Guess right now, we actually don't know what effect, if any, our calls or mails have had. Certainly, if there is now a serious investigation in place (police or RSPCA) I don't think we will find out about it right away. That's the frustrating part! 

If the local news reporter follows up, and there is a further report, I would hope that any action that's being taken for real would be stated.

It would really have to be through that news media, I think, that any reward would have to be set up and publicised - and the decision made as to who might receive it if (and only if) someone were caught and convicted. I would certainly be prepared to put up a few hundred and, if it came to that, gladly accept contributions towards it. To get that before enough people in the area, though, it would need to be handled by the press - maybe several of the various local papers all carrying it.

Thanks for that excellent thought. I have to say that had not previously occurred to me.

John


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Keep me posted then John as to the idea of a reward. Sign me up then for 40, no hesitation at all in doing that. (I think that's about a 100$ Canadian) I don't think it would take much to stop this guy either. His pals will rat him out in a heartbeat for a few bucks and a chance to get their name in the paper.

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

John_D said:


> Hi Cameron,
> 
> It would really have to be through that news media, I think, that any reward would have to be set up and publicised - and the decision made as to who might receive it if (and only if) someone were caught and convicted. I would certainly be prepared to put up a few hundred and, if it came to that, gladly accept contributions towards it. To get that before enough people in the area, though, it would need to be handled by the press - maybe several of the various local papers all carrying it.
> 
> John


That would be the best way. Last year there was a terrible incident in our neighboring city of Campbell in which someone deliberately killed a bunch of domestic ducks that lived in a pond at a carwash. The ducks were like mascots of the carwash and patrons loved them. The perpetrator was caught on the carwash's security camera but the images were too grainy to get a license number. When the story hit the media the public was outraged and donations poured in. The police got involved and there is still a large reward for anyone who provides information leading to the guy's arrest. Unfortunately they have not caught him. But the case is still open.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thats what we want Bird Mom forever, We want the conscious of the society to be shocked enough to want to apprehend these monsters. That was an excelent idea to offer a reward. Let me know where to send mine

Cameron, Thank you for your agreement. Now, I feel like things are going to pull together. I did e-mail CBS the pictures, and a brief run down. I hope they are interested. 

Love to all of you, I have to run! I'm on restriction

Feather


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeons with unusable beaks: SPLITBEAK, PART 1*

I have come upon this thread rather late. Been occupied.
I intended to do a story on Splitbeak, a pigeon I was helping last year, and post these two pictures with it. I have been compiling and revising my notes and letters. The story is not yet ready, but here are some details which might be relevant. I think a pigeon without a beak can survive if he is fed from a jar filled with seeds, but he cannot preen himself.

I first saw the female pigeon Splitbeak on February 18, 2005, a Friday, and took her in on June 6th when she was weak enough to catch. Her upper right beak was missing. The upper left beak, wobbly, useless, held on by flesh, curved and stuck out at a 45-degree angle to the left. She had a large clot (50-60+ grams, 2 ounces) of poop (caused by diarrhea as a result of poor nutrition) stuck on her keel. It was embedded with breast feathers, broken near the skin because they couldn't grow out further. Other smaller clots dangled. 

I had furtively tried to feed her, since feeding street pigeons is prohibited. She was naturally wary and elusive because of her weak state and handicap, and I could not entice her away from the flock. She could get the occasional large bread crumb. Nine times out of ten she was unsuccessful, and another pigeon would step in and take the food while she had to watch. She would stab at seeds unsuccessfully, and I have always wondered why. Perhaps she had the attitude „Never give up,“ or „Sometimes miracles happen.“ I did once see a seed trapped between her lower beak and the ground bounce or ricochet into her mouth. Twice I saw her lay the right side of her head against the ground, and once against the root of a tree, to grab a morsel between the flesh of her upper mouth and her lower beak. The upper left beak protruding at a 45-degree angle kept her from doing the same with that side of the head, and many feathers on her left side were reachable only with a foot or not at all. 

Splitbeak couldn’t groom herself effectively, and looked scraggly and unkempt. She couldn’t remove feathers from her vent to keep the area clean, and poop accumulated. Rain and water probabyly aggravated the condition by solidifying the mass. Getting wet in a bath would make her vulnerable because of difficulty in flying. 
She couldn't walk fast. She would lift a leg forward, but when it was vertical it would hit the poop, and sometimes snag and trip her. Somehow she managed to survive. 

After watching her several months, one day she was propped against a tree, avoiding any unnecessary action. She was obviously weak enough to catch.. I dropped some seed near her, pigeons piled up, and I reached down and scooped her up, put her in the darkness of the box I had brought for transporting her in my backpack. An attendant at the church *** homeless mission (where this took place) saw the pigeons piling up, rushed out and threatened to call the police (and didn't listen to anything I had to say, much less look at the pigeon). 

We called the vet (who had been recommended as pigeon-friendly) and he requested that we remove the poop prior to next day's appointment. What started out as me holding Splitbeak's tail end under a stream of bath shower water turned into my wife removing my soaking shoes and clothing so I could provide the poor struggling pigeon with a horrendous near-drowning experience. I spent an hour in the shower with her removing the poop, which was as hard as sugar candy (I still have this specimen in a jar, for purposes of demonstration). I snipped a few feathers, and some skin which adhered to the poop came off. I used the hair dryer, then held her against my chest for two hours, under my bathrobe, so she could stay warm and slowly dry. 

The vet said she couldn't survive or thrive on her own, and should be placed in an aviary. We kept her in our one-room apartment while we tried to locate a suitable home for her, without success. One aviary would take her only if she could be rehabilitated and eventually released. After the poop removal she was totally transformed in appearance: she was a beautiful bird. 

We let her fly free in the room. Out of the window she could see an interested male pigeon. After a week of good food she looked beautiful, and acted like a teenager eager to get out. The last two days she was acting neurotic, throwing seeds all over the apartment. We had no prospects for a place for her. Pigeon fanciers like to keep their caged birds separate from ferals because of possible disease transmission. I had taken care of the present problem, but had not provided much for her future. We let her fly out, and she immediately joined her boyfriend. We saw them kissing with their beaks, and behind the roofline, some wing flapping. He chased her; she chased him; she flew away.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*PIgeons with unusable beaks: SPLITBEAK, PART 2*

I saw her again where I first found her, on August 6th. I went there every day when possible to feed her from a jar filled with seed. I tried to avoid attracting the attention of other pigeons, often without success. Splitbeak would often spend more time chasing them away than she spent feeding. I fed her a feed mix for champion racing pigeons, a mix of whole corn kernels and peas and roasted soybeans and other seeds, so that she take the necessary ten minutes or so to eat quickly. Often raptors (introduced by the city to control the pigeon population) would interrupt her feeding. Sometimes a day or so would go by when she couldn't feed, or I didn't see her.

Feeding her was a one hour minimum to two hour project every afternoon. She usually ate thirty to forty grams (one to two ounces). Once she ate so much, perhaps as much as a hundred grams, that with repeated attempts she could get only about a foot off the ground for a meter or so. I fed her for four months. She would recognize me getting off the streetcar and would fly across the street or to wherever we currently rendezvoused. Several other pigeons knew about our arrangement and would try to join in.

I was able to go to her almost every day for four months. When one or two raptors passed overhead all the other pigeons would take flight. She would hide in a tree because she could not fly as well or as quick as the others. When she thought she could make it, she would make a quick flight to the second-story level of scaffolding at the church, where she spent the night. Her health steadily improved, and new feathers came out. She could not preen her new feathers, so they didn't open up quickly as is normal. I last saw her on Monday afternoon, December 5th. That day she let another sick pigeon eat alongside her without fuss, head touching head in the seed jar. A couple of days before she had joined the other pigeons in their evasive flight from two raptors, soaring and looping with the several flights of her flock for three or four minutes. I looked for her the next two weeks.
I have yet to see her.

(I'm inexperienced at getitng images inserted). 
I thought the PiCTURES of WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO A PIGEON UNABLE TO PREEN HERSELF might be useful in publicity for trying to apprehend the perpetuator in Manchester. I may email them to some members.


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## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

Larry, it is heartwarming to know there are kind souls like you who will go to great lengths to help these birds, Splitbeak was lucky, I hope you see her again, I'd love to see her picture.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

These are Larry's pics of "splitbeak"

John

(Thanks Larry)


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## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

What a dear sweet pidge, thanks for sending the Photos John.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Amazig*

Larry, that is such an amazing story - that was such a wonderful thing you did for Splitbeak. The time and effort and the risk of breaking the law - what a great guy you are.

The pigeons at Middleton, their injuries look to extensive to try and rehabilitate - maybe not impossible but I am unsure of the quality of life that the birds may have. Many will disagree I expect who have had severely disabled birds (Denise and Squidget) ( Reti and Jane) ( Phil!). 

I think because these birds once had beaks and knew how to feed and preen to be unable to do this and to have that great gaping hole - I don't think it would be that fair. Laura, the vet, who has been looking at the birds I am sure would be able to advise.

Tania


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Photos of mutilated pigeons*

I just now saw the photos, and they are horrific. I went through the posts quickly last night because it was a bit too much, and thought that there were no photos made or available at that time. I had even considered the possibility that perhaps the birds had been caught by something such as a wind-blown shutting door while they were attemptng to get at food, or a wheel or tire trapping their beak, but there are too many birds, the explanation seems too complicated (Occam's Razor), and the photos tend to persuade me otherwise. 

Splitbeak's tongue was intact. Once I saw a crust of poop or some such on the tip, but she enjoyed eating. These poor pigeons seem beyond any possible enjoyment of life. 

I feel that a person who would do such a thing must have experienced a lot of fear and consequently anger, and takes it out on very helpless creatures. From what I have read, if this person feels he can get away with this, he may feel emboldened to go on to other prey, such as humans. Right now human prey may be inconvenient and too threatening for him. So much for my armchair, hand-me-down psychology. 

One thing I do firmly believe: a person who knowingly and willingly harms another does more injury to himself than to his victim. This may seem a preposterous statement. Consider: Someone may torture me, take away my possessions, my family and friends, my freedom, my life, my health, and even my sanity, but he cannot take away my dignity, my self. This has been demonstrated many, many times and written about by many, many others. The evildoer puts his ability to ever feel compassion at a farther remove. He casts away his dignity, perhaps to never find it again. He revels in chaos and confusion, and is truly lost. And he becomes aware of his forlorn condition, perhaps ever so slowly, perhaps instantaneously at death, but surely. I do not express this as punishment or retribution, but as an awareness of a wasted life, a lack of that which could have been, the gift of life a present unopened, not experienced, and not enjoyed.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

kittypaws said:


> .....
> I think because these birds once had beaks and knew how to feed and preen to be unable to do this and to have that great gaping hole - I don't think it would be that fair. Laura, the vet, who has been looking at the birds I am sure would be able to advise.
> 
> Tania


Hi Tania, 

In the first report from Helen, she said that the tongues had dried and shriveled up, and in this last group, I believe that at least one of them had the tongue cut off in addition to the beak. There just seems to be nothing left to protect the interior mouth region from constant exposure to the air. It's just one of these things, as you say, that those doing the medical exams are best able to advise on. These poor birds are in capable and caring hands.

fp

Larry, I posted after you and then saw your entry. Yes, of course, the damage that they do to themselves, especially spiritually, is the greatest of all. It is so hard to keep this in mind when they are ravaging other very innocent beings, but very true.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*This is bad*

 This is horrible. People who do things like this end up doing unspokable act to people. I hope they catch this person. Or worst yet,I turn this one over to God.  He will deal with him and it won't be pretty. I emailed the Queen.


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*After reading all these post and reading splitbeaks story*

I am sitting here crying... What kind of human could do this? one that could do this most likely to another human, child etc, He needs to be stopped and I believe the best way is exposure, REWARD offered to the person who can lead to this monster. If you are taking donations for a reward tell us where to send the money...

Thank you for sharing splitbeaks story , she probably met her new husband and their having their honeymoon in Hawaii, you;ll see her soon.

My thoughts and prayers to you all ....

Andi


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

received fron Cynthia:



> Seems as if the RSPCA were quick enough to gather the abandoned chickens in.
> 
> http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/206/206523_chicken_mystery_hits_high_street.html
> 
> There is an e-mail for contact. Can you post the link to the article on pigeons.com and ask people to use the e-mail address in the article to comment on the RSPCA's failure to help the pigeons. If possible include photos.


John


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Light Sussex?
My favourite breed of chicken. Used to have a flock.
Good all round bird. Good layer and good for meat, although we never ate any of ours. Eggs were delicious but our birds were free range together with the food we provided.
Would have more like a shot but no room now so I can only wistfully reminice.
As to the pigeons, well Lesley tells me that she spoke to an RSPCA inspector on Saturday and he took my details including phone number saying he would be in touch. Needless to say - nothing so far.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Manchester Animal protection might be able to do something...put pressure on RSPCA and Police, maybe practical help trapping and transporting pigeons.

I can't e-mail them from work because it will show up as a government communication which could be misinterpreted and lead to disciplinary action ...can others try?

http://www.mapsoc.org.uk/aboutus.htm

The Green Party might also be able to influence if not provide practical help:

http://www.manchestergreenparty.org.uk/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3

Thanks,

Cynthia


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Cynthia you baaad girl!
You still homing from work?
 
Hmmm...... well an email from Travelodge.co.uk might not go down very well either - especially if they hit reply, so I'm in the same boat at the moment.
'Homing from work' is a good pastime......................


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Please check out my post on page 2 for an e-mail I just got from Manchester RSCPA. Thought it would bump up with an edit but that's ok. 

Maggie


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Can't find it Maggie!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She edited this post to include the follow-up:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=113589&postcount=24

which says:

"From: RSPCA Manchester & Salford <[email protected]>

Hi

You are one of the many concerned people who have contacted us about this. The local Inspector has been out on a few occasions and managed to catch a few birds. Others had gone when she arrived but please don't think that nothing is being done as we will act on any information we receive to stop this happening and prosecute those responsible.

Thanks again,
Julie Threlfall"


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Pidgey,

I also notice that your e-mail said that she is working with helen, I think that things will move forward now, thank goodness.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, thank you.

Love, maggie


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Good morning everyone~
I just finished posting my concerns to everyone in Manchster that I can based on the good resources that we have been provided with. 

The graphic picture of the poor suffering beakless pigeon is my mind constantly.It may go away when I am busy, but you know it comes back. I know many of you here are experiencing he same problem...the poor pigeons. This pain and suffering targeted to pigeons is horrible, and I hope and pray the ones responsible are caught SOON.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi linda,
Thanks for your concern, our local Inspector is working with local bird rescue groups to help these birds. Some have already been caught and any others reported will be helped. We will obviously investigate & try to find out who is responsible for these awful acts of cruelty.
Rest assured the matter is under investigation,
Julie Threlfall

This is the reply the from the RSPCA

Feather


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Maybe we should infiltrate some Manchester chat rooms.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Am I being really cynical here? Sounds like the RSPCA is trying to take the credit for the excellent work that Lesley, Helen, Laura and Diane have already done.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I think they mean me when they say local bird rescue.  
They do know I'm an avian vet nurse and work closely with wildlife.
Wouldn't say they were working closely though - took them long enough to get in touch although it has been weekend.


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## AliBlack (Sep 8, 2003)

I hadn't read it like that Cynthia, hasn't come across like that to me. I'm just pleased they seem to be doing something 
I could be wrong of course!!



cyro51 said:


> Am I being really cynical here? Sounds like the RSPCA is trying to take the credit for the excellent work that Lesley, Helen, Laura and Diane have already done.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Nooti, 

I know they meant you. I wonder what other groups they are working with. Maybe someone should ask them. 

Helen now if you happened to be on your honeymoon, and was not in the country, I wonder what groups they would be working with?

We all know until you guys stepped in that it was Diane, alone, desperate for help.

The important part is that there was enough out cry for them to get involved now.

I'm glad you'll have the help, and possibly some resources to help you out.

With great admiration,
Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Maybe we should infiltrate some Manchester chat rooms.
> 
> Cynthia


Sounds good, got some web addresses?

fp


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Helen now if you happened to be on your honeymoon, and was not in the country, I wonder what groups they would be working with?
**********************************************
So would I!
Your guess is as good as mine I suspect.
No-one I know of within 150 mile radius of me apart from Stapely Grange is willing to treat pigeons and Stapley are just a hospital not a rescue org.
There could be someone but I don't know of them.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

We all have their (RSPCA's) attention now. I don't want to kick them about anymore if they are actually doing their job. It will help to keep the pressure on though so that this situation is not forgotten about. 

Meanwhile, we now have four members willing to commit to a reward if necessary. I love you guys! That's the trick to moving things ahead. It's surely a better use of funds than giving change to the local pan-handlers who just need a another drink. And it puts the whole giving for a "good purpose" back into perspective.

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Larry, 

I wanted to mention that your theory of the unopened present has sure hit me hard. You are a beautiful spirit, in the future I will try not to be so judgemental of others. Although I want these cruel actions stopped, and this person put somewhere that he can't hurt any living thing again, I can't help seeing a vision of this beautifully wrapped box, and a real human being living inside.

Thank you for your story on Split Beak, and your perspective on these matters.

Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi Cameron,

Yes I agree with you that we have the RSPCA's attention. But when they actually get out there in the "trenches" (as Terry calls it) and give there support to the 4 (obviously exausted) members of ours, I will be alot happier.

Thank God for the internet!

The reward idea is excellent! And, John has been logged on to the forum, to keep us up to date on any new occurances. Thanks John! 

Love to all,

Feather


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*I too*

had the reply from Julie at the RSPCA - she must have been busy this morning e-mailing us all back - but as you say its grabbed their attention - now we need to get the bad guy. 

My annonymous contact who made a suggestion who it may be, they "the accused" have sent me an e-mail today and assured it is nothing of their doing ( and I do believe them) ........and they want to work with the Police and the RSPCA to get the perpertrators caught asking for contacts which I will ask John D to advise.... it appears that we have a madman out there, a sick twisted individual or individuals who need to be caught and as soon as possible. 

Tania


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have not heard from the RSPCA but got a response from Animals in Distress. I won't copy it all, but this last bit will be a useful resource for our rescuers :

*if you catch any more pigeons contact our other sanctuary 
in Manchester and we will get them to a vet as soon as possible. tel 07850 605 
283
I hope that there is no more
Best wishes Mel Animals in Distress* 

I have also had an e-mail from the Manchester Guardian.

Cynthia


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Good point Feather,

I agree with you of course. 

But large organizations like the RSPCA tend to function from the standpoint of general and specific annual objectives. They constrain themselves to fullfilling objectives set and quotas filled on an anual basis and try not to vary from those goals for budgetary and long term planning rationals. There is no more room for idealism once organizations reach a certain size. They are simply an an animal unto themselves.

So I will not criticise them if they are now fulfilling what is a part of their approved mandate. We need to understand that large organizations move slowly at the best of times. I am impressed by the response we have acheived so far. Not bad considering what we are dealing with. Please understand that this is actually a fast response from a large organization despite how we feel.

We would of course like them to jump to our demands "fast" but it doesn't work like that. At the end of the day the people in the trenches are the only thing that will make the difference when it comes to immediate action and results.

I commend all those members out their doing their utmost best to help. I wish I could be there with you. God bless you all and the pigeons you are helping.

Cameron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by cyro51
> Maybe we should infiltrate some Manchester chat rooms.
> 
> ...


The problem is finding one that involves the activities of thugs, psychopaths and sadists. 


http://www.ukstudentchat.com/chat/manchester

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/chat/

http://www.manchester.com/scripts/chat.cgi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi folks,

Adding to the other responses from the RSPCA, here's mine that I've just picked up:

Hi,
Thanks for your concern, the local RSPCA are aware of this and have picked up a few of these poor injured birds, sadly they all had to be euthanased as they were too badly injured. Hopefully whoever is doing this will be caught soon.
Thanks again,
Julie Threlfall.
Manchester & Salford RSPCA.

fp


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

And here's mine:

Hi Linda,
Thanks for your concern about these poor birds. The local Inspector has been out and caught a few of them but on a couple of occasions the birds had gone when she got there. We have had a lot of calls about this so please don't think nothing is being done about it.
Julie Threlfall.
Manchester & Salford RSPCA

Linda


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

those poor birds  

who and why are they doing these cruel acts to the pigeons? i just dont understand who would do something like that


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

I just read the other thread (beak help thread)

and it looks like its either the same person or someone doing the same horrible things to the pigeons on purpose, why the hell would he do that!?   

I'm really upset thinking how the poor birds are suffering becuase of this son of a *****  If it is done by someone on purpose, I hope they caught the person on CCTV as there should be some security cameras in the town centres, and then they put the cruel monster in jail

I want to cry, when I think of the cruelty and abuse done to the birds, they're innocent and did nothing wrong, and someone grabbed them


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

I feel so horrible they had to put those poor babies down! I was so hoping some one could have taken them in and tube fed them for the rest of their days. I have been staying far away from this post after seeing the first pic posted. My emotions are running ramped! When I even see the thread title my eyes well up and I have to leave the board, those poor little innocent angels just trying to live their lives to the best of their abilities only having a barbaric sub human piece or waste do this to them. As you can I'm mad as hell and would love to be the one who gets to punish whoever is doing this, I can think of some very imaginative things to put him through! I better leave at this as my grief is turning to hatred very quickly


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

*Peta Uk*

Sheesh, at least the RSPCA has finally taken notice. How long should I give them before contacting PETA UK (see link below) about the pigeon abuse? 

http://www.peta.org.uk/about/contact.asp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

JGregg~ 

I would go ahead and do it now, and ecourage all our members to do so as well. Right now I am at work at the computer will not allow me to access to that point, but i will when I get home tonight.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi Victor,

Just logged on and saw your post. So I sent e-mails to the last two addresses that were posted by JGregg. Now I'm going to catch up on this thread.

There were two now there is only one.

Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi Pete,

I sure know how you feel! I've been through so many changes over this. I don't like feeling this way, so I try and get myself right by thinking of the positive things that are going on because of this dreadful deed.

One thing that the RSPCA didn't count on is that we are a family, and we meet in this little corner of cyberspace to laugh, cry, teach, learn and vent our frustrations and our joys. If they are helping our sisters and brother, in the UK then we will know.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I sent one off to PETA yesterday.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

We see some horrific things here in the states, this causes such a depression with me it hurts. No bird, animal, human should ever be treated this way. The thought of the pigeons feeling the pain, and the wondering why are these people doing this to me as they were going thru the process, just makes me cry bitter tears. I am happy as hell that the people who did this aren't in front of me as I beleive in equal torture, may sound mean but hey there is no reasoning for any of this cruelty!! Those Pigeons didn't do anything to them. If there is anything we can do Please don't hesitate to ask. Thank You for putting them out of the pain and suffering, and caring the way you do.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I think what hurts the most is how trusting pigeons are and how long--thousands of years--they have lived close to humans. They have benefitted us in so many ways over the centuries, and they bring us so much enjoyment. They have even saved human lives in war time past and in search and rescue now. That someone could do this to the trusting, gentle "dove of peace" is a complete outrage.


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I think what hurts the most is how trusting pigeons are and how long--thousands of years--they have lived close to humans. They have benefitted us in so many ways over the centuries, and they bring us so much enjoyment. They have even saved human lives in war time past and in search and rescue now. That someone could do this to the trusting, gentle "dove of peace" is a complete outrage.


yes, it really depresses me how the poor pigeons trusted a really cruel person who took of advantage of this, and then hurt them  

the person who commits these savage crimes Must go to jail, they have no place in society.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

LondonPigeon said:


> yes, it really depresses me how the poor pigeons trusted a really cruel person who took of advantage of this, and then hurt them
> 
> the person who commits these savage crimes Must go to jail, they have no place in society.



A very dear lady from the UK that I use to work with always told me that there are two things that the people from England will not stand for and that is child abuse and animal abuse.

Which reminds me of that very nice British couple that rescused all of those spotted puppies. That gave them a total of 101, I believe. 

Feather


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Feather said:


> Which reminds me of that very nice British couple that rescused all of those spotted puppies. That gave them a total of 101, I believe. Feather


 Nice one, Feather

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Feather said:


> A very dear lady from the UK that I use to work with always told me that there are two things that the people from England will not stand for and that is child abuse and animal abuse.


Unfortunately, though, in this day and age a whole lot of what may have been true about the English - or Brits generally - is no more 

John


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I think what hurts the most is how trusting pigeons are and how long--thousands of years--they have lived close to humans. They have benefitted us in so many ways over the centuries, and they bring us so much enjoyment. They have even saved human lives in war time past and in search and rescue now. That someone could do this to the trusting, gentle "dove of peace" is a complete outrage.


Very well put. Knowing the nature of pigeons as we do, it is difficult to imagine how someone could treat them so horribly.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2006)

*People are mean.*



> Originally Posted by Feather
> A very dear lady from the UK that I use to work with always told me that there are two things that the people from England will not stand for and that is child abuse and animal abuse.





> "Unfortunately, though, in this day and age a whole lot of what may have been true about the English - or Brits generally - is no more "


Actually, I think a little reading of Victorian novels will show you that the Britons have a long tradition of child and animal abuse!

Have any of you noticed just how popular horror films are? Some horror films have truly nothing going for them except the pleasure people take in seeing suffering, death, and mutilation of human beings.

The chopping off of pigeon beaks hardly strikes me as extraordinary for the current culture, or cultures of the past.

Cynically yours,
Monica


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Monica,

Maybe stop reading those Victorian novels of yours. Every country has a few bad apples of course but in my books the Brits are still top drawer. I love the English and have known so many to be gracious, generous, kind, intelligent and open minded. Books won't tell you anything about how a society actually functions. You have to live amongst them and know them firsthand. And our pigeon friends here are the best of all.... 

So please don't insult our Brits. OK.

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

What country did the novel Frankenstein take place? Because I have visions of....ALL of us.....with torches going after the person/s who's hurting the pigeons.

And John D, Cameron, and Pidgey the Torch Bearer are leading the mob.

There are some actions that will make people from all countries madmen/women.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Please let's not fight among ourselves, that's not what this thread was started for.
I for one have to admit that Monica has a point. After all we in the UK all know that Fox hunting has just been banned.
As for what is happening in our present culture, well she has a point too. After all how much notice are people going to take of some beakless pigeons when about 5 miles away a 10 year old boy lies stabbed to death- according to the media his face barely recognisable, and a 14 year old from the same school is arrested and charged with the murder?
40 years ago I was able to run wild with the best of the local bunch in the woods without wondering if my mates were plotting to kill me...............


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

On a more positive note, this is really taking off now. I had a call from Rochdale Borough Council asking for the story and telling me that their workers were being instructed to watch out for anything suspicious, and this morning Lesley and I were both contacted by ChannelM TV and we will be meeting up with them in Middleton this afternoon to give our story.
If we can make this big and get people to sit up and take notice perhaps we can persuade the sicko to stop altogether if he thinks that people are aware and maybe watching out for him carrying out this awful act.
At least this time it's not live in the TV studios.............. we can afford to make a blunder and correct it before its broadcast.
Also I learnt this morning from ChannelM newsdesk that the RSPCA are still saying that it's a disease. Just what will it take to convince them?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yes, the council are evidently making sure they don't get any fingers pointed at them, not having been very pigeon-friendly in the past. They'll have been stirred up by our Tania, I think  The RPRA gen sec has said he will make enquiries among the local membership and ask em to watch out.

I see it's the Guardian group - same as the local paper. Great stuff, Helen and Lesley! 

The RSPCA are so ignorant, it is unbelieveable!

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Also I learnt this morning from ChannelM newsdesk that the RSPCA are still saying that it's a disease. Just what will it take to convince them?


It will take you, Helen!

But if they are still unconvinced offer to provide one to DEFRA or the Veterinary laboratory Agency for a necropsy. 

Cynthia


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

But if they are still unconvinced offer to provide one to DEFRA or the Veterinary laboratory Agency for a necropsy. 
**********************************
Good point Cynthia - I got six to choose from. They could have them all.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

You could also mention that previous occurrence, Helen - even the RSPCA shouldn't be able to say it's 'coincidence'


Here is the link Cynthia turned up, again :

http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/82/82756_thug_hacks_off_pigeons_beak.html

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

In my response from Julie Trelfall, she says that the RSPCA is aware of the "injured birds" which to me means just that, not 'sick birds'. I did email her back again to ask her if her organization would be networking with Michael Todd and keeping open lines of communication to aid in the pursuit of the person responsible, and I've not heard back from her.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> In my response from Julie Trelfall, she says that the RSPCA is aware of the "injured birds" which to me means just that, not 'sick birds'.


I had noticed that too, also this in the reply Maggie received:

_The local Inspector has been out on a few occasions and *managed to catch a few birds*. Others had gone when she arrived but please don't think that nothing is being done as *we will act on any information we receive to stop this happening and prosecute those responsible*_

They would hardly be talking about prosecuting if they considered the pigeons that they claimed to have caught had a disease.

In another reply I remember them referring a a "henious" act of cruelty.

Either they are not communicating with each other or they are weaving a very tangled web!

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Helen, don't part with all the evidence, just as much as they need. You know how easily evidence is misplaced.

Cynthia


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I had a feeling they were just trying to quiet the mob (us) with their responses. They may have sent someone out, I'll give them that, but I dought that they caught any birds. And I do believe that the rescue groups that they claimed to be working with was that phone call to Helen. They needed to seem somewhat in the know to calm us down. When Cameron stated that big organizations aren't usually...... hands on.....that made alot of sense. But what are they baseing their theory on? It seems with all the bird disease scares that have been going around that their statement would bring more people out who would want to hurt pigeons, rather than help them.

Good luck today girls!

Feather


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Sick pigeons - oh yeah!!*

I also had and I quote from julie

_Any info about who is doing this will be followed up, hopefully before too many more birds are attacked_

As previously said they (RSPCA) are tying themselves up in knots with their inconsistencies - truth is I expect they are a little embarrassed that they haven't taken this seriously in the beginning when Diane first complained - now they have to because there is going to be media coverage which Helen would have confirmed that no way was this an illness. The RSPCA, although acting now, look stupid and they have a VERY BIG reputation in the UK, especially with HRH at the helm!!!! 

I expect after the broadcast etc. they will be taking this very seriously so that they can get back into the public's "good books"

I think everyone at Pigeons.com can be really proud of themselves on what they have achieved ( especially those at the sharp end - Diane, Lesley and Helen) - we just need the perpetrator caught then we'll have to have a "virtual" party - which I will happily raise a glass of wine to! 

Tania


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm right there with you, Tania! It's great that you guys are getting media coverage. Sounds to me like the RSPCA is falling over itself to avoid looking bad, which only makes it look more foolish. Hope the news story will put to rest the idiotic idea that the mutilations were the result of a disease. Wish I could see it.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Diane just said (ref quotes in the "Middleton Guardian" today) :

"A spokesman for the police: have launched a line of enquiry.

Spokesperson for RSPCA says: its not easy to catch pigeons so more than likely its a disease?????????"

The RSPCA are VERY confused!

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is their any way of getting the interview to other stations in the area for air time?? Are there any other affiliate stations w/the one airing the clip?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Monica said:


> Actually, I think a little reading of Victorian novels will show you that the Britons have a long tradition of child and animal abuse!
> 
> Have any of you noticed just how popular horror films are? Some horror films have truly nothing going for them except the pleasure people take in seeing suffering, death, and mutilation of human beings.
> 
> ...


Hi Monica,

I think you are correct in this summation, although, I would extend these observations to all of humanity, be they in a quote unquote developed or 'undeveloped nation'. What sticks out in my mind is a recent link that TAWhatley posted that discussed avian pain. The author broke out pain in terms of how the effects were displayed. Non-predators hid their pain, predators displayed it. Unfortunately, humans in general fell into the predator category. We display our pain, perhaps to greater or lesser degree, but none the less displayed by some standards. All of the countries of the world, in terms of the human occupants, have a history of behaviors unbecoming of the so called human kingdom, jmo.

I don't know which is worse right now, for the perpetrator to temporarily shift gears into a new strategy or continue the trodden path.

fp

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

That was very good fp.

When my friend told me, (many years ago) that the English did not stand for child abuse or animal abuse, I never understood her to mean that no English person ever abused children or animals. I understood her to mean that society as a whole was not tolerant of that behavior. We have sadistic people all over the world, and we have since the beginning of time. 

Terrible behaviors that were acceptable in the past are no longer tolerated.
That doesn't mean they are not happening.

I don't put too much past mankind, but I was still shocked when I saw those pictures of those little birds. I know that laws are changing to protect animals more than they have in the past, and the reason for this is because society is saying we won't stand for this anymore.

Do they still disect frogs in biology?

I never could do that, but it was manditory for that class.

Feather


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi 
I have just read the newspaper article, and on phone AGAIN! to the RSPCA , I can't believe that they are still saying this is caused by a disease, GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!! It's makin me soooo mad, and them saying so in the newspaper is playing it down I kinda lost my cool a little, I asked if this spokeswoman 'Heather Holmes', or whoever had made the decision that," it probably was a disease", had even SEEN one of these poor pigeons, as I had, close up and it 100% was NOT!! a disease and also that the birds were EASY!! to catch, as I'm no expert but I caught SEVEN! pigeons fairly easily in a space of about half an hour on Saturday and around an hour on Sunday, so whoever was trying to get them, wasn't trying very hard! 
I also told them , I didn't think that their left hand didn't know what their right hand was doing as yet again I had to go through the whole story again, and they wanted to know what happened to the pigeons, and where they were now, so once again I gave them Helen's number.

They also took my number and said they would be in touch..... but I've heard that before. 

Disease.... HA!!! how ignorant are they?

sorry to rant on, but this has really got me going

Lesley


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The RSPCA's bad reputation:

http://www.webtribe.net/~animadversion/animadversion.htm


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I thought everyone knew about this site??? It's common knowledge among all my friends physical and Cyber. Sorry - would have posted this link a long time ago. I have been so disgusted at the RSPCA over the last 10 years or so that I go out of my way to avoid them as much as I can because I could get myself into trouble with some of the things I would like to say.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

bird brain said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi
> *I have just read the newspaper article*, and on phone AGAIN! to the RSPCA , I can't believe that they are still saying this is caused by a disease,


Hi Lesley,
Could you post the link to the actual article?
Thanks.

Cindy


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

Hello Whitefeather
John has put the newspaper article in a post under the 'Birds with no beak' thread, in sick & injured birds, I'm sorry but I dont know how to attach it to this post.

Lesley


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Cindy - it's also in the online version today

http://www.middletonguardian.co.uk/news/s/210/210273_police_to_probe_bird_cruelty_claims.html

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

John_D said:


> Hi Cindy - it's also in the online version today
> 
> http://www.middletonguardian.co.uk/news/s/210/210273_police_to_probe_bird_cruelty_claims.html
> 
> John


Thanks lots John.  


*"Hello Whitefeather
John has put the newspaper article in a post under the 'Birds with no beak' thread, in sick & injured birds, I'm sorry but I dont know how to attach it to this post."
Lesley*

No problem Lesley.  I see John has posted the link.

Thank you again for all you & your hubby have done, & continue to do, for these poor pijjies. 

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This 'mysterious' Heather Holmes, who seems to be unknown to the RSPCA, is the current regional press officer for the area. Seems she has been a regional press officer for several areas, in fact.

The Julie who has been responding is or was an RSPCA Inspector and also rehoming co-ordinator (she also has Lurchers, not that that has anything to do with it)

John


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

This 'mysterious' Heather Holmes, who seems to be unknown to the RSPCA, is the current regional press officer
********************************
Not a vet then, or anyone with avian medical experience........


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I hope no one thinks that the RSPCA actually believe that missing beaks is a sort of pigeon illness. What they are doing is fighting a threat to their bottom line. They know very well there is no such illness. This is all about avoiding our complaints and distracting the public from the real issue. 

It's called muddying the waters, creating doubt and confusion and avoiding the bullet so they don't have to be bothered to start protecting birds. I can well imagine they already have policies in place regarding birds in general especially as H5N1 is now in Europe. Protecting birds, and pigeons in particular will be very low on their priority list indeed.

So Ms Holmes comments don't surprise me. She has no doubt been told exactly how to comment on this situation as is the practice when putting out media releases etc. It is inconceivable that the RSPCA with their expertise do not know how these birds came to such a bad end.

They are deliberately misinforming.

Cameron


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

They are deliberately misinforming
**********************************
And they continue to do so through the spring and summer when people ring in to say they have a baby bird that their cat has brought in. They are trained to tell people to feed it bread and milk - (so I last heard.) Sadly bread has no nutritional value and milk is basically a poison to birds which are lactose intolerant. They cannot digest the stuff so it mostly stays put and goes bad. Creates allsorts of painful gastric disorders resulting in weakness by starvation and death within a few days. But then that's a problem solved isn't it? No more baby bird and no worrying about keeping wild birds illegally.
Then of course there's the idiot who answered the phone to a concerned woman one *cold winter's* day who said she'd found an adult male kestrel in her garden with a broken wing. The idiot told the woman to "Put it back, its parents will come and feed it." An adult? In December? Or does the RSPCA now have its call centre in a hot country such as India, like the banks do and all the other firms getting on the cheap labour bandwagon? Maybe that's why the moron didn't know what season it was?
hmmmmph...... RSPCA - does that stand for Royal Society for the Protection of Criminal Activities - coz that's what it's starting to sound like. Certainly in this Middleton case anyway.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

The more I hear about that outfit (the RSPCA) the more I am starting to see your point of veiw Nooti. They are deliberately misinforming. And what a rotten bunch that really makes them!

They really don't want to hear what we are saying to them do they.

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Nooti said:


> They are deliberately misinforming
> **********************************
> And they continue to do so through the spring and summer when people ring in to say they have a baby bird that their cat has brought in. They are trained to tell people to feed it bread and milk - (so I last heard.) Sadly bread has no nutritional value and milk is basically a poison to birds which are lactose intolerant. They cannot digest the stuff so it mostly stays put and goes bad. Creates allsorts of painful gastric disorders resulting in weakness by starvation and death within a few days. But then that's a problem solved isn't it? No more baby bird and no worrying about keeping wild birds illegally.
> Then of course there's the idiot who answered the phone to a concerned woman one *cold winter's* day who said she'd found an adult male kestrel in her garden with a broken wing. The idiot told the woman to "Put it back, its parents will come and feed it." An adult? In December? Or does the RSPCA now have its call centre in a hot country such as India, like the banks do and all the other firms getting on the cheap labour bandwagon? Maybe that's why the moron didn't know what season it was?
> hmmmmph...... RSPCA - does that stand for Royal Society for the Protection of Criminal Activities - coz that's what it's starting to sound like. Certainly in this Middleton case anyway.


Helen, your comment about the call center is dead on. How in the world has this organization been able to continue to function?

Maggie


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

You actually think the RSPCA functions?

It doesn't sound like it even does that if you ask me.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The problem here seems to be the "public face" of the RSPCA.

The person who has been answering emails appears to have some sensible understanding of the situation. She says an RSPCA Inspector has been out - and Helen has had contact with one, who (I believe Helen said) sounded like she did at least _want_ to do something. This Julie certainly seems to accept that these were attacks and not an illness. She says, too, that the RSPCA has caught some birds - though she may be getting confused with Lesley having got them.

It's this Heather Holmes who is the problem - like I say, the "public face" - rather than the local people on the ground, by the sounds of it.

John


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Called in the surgery this morning to find Laura having just come off the phone with Inspector Byrnes from the RSPCA. The lady asked Laura for her report and her diagnosis of the injury. She appeared annoyed when Laura told her that someone from the society had quoted that it was a disease. Apparently the inspectors words were, " I'm in charge of this case and I've instructed no-one to say that. I want to know who that is!" 
So I've phoned and left a message for her to call me back. I also have to thaw out the victims, weigh them and give a brief description of each and have my report in for tomorrow.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

John_D said:


> *The problem here seems to be the "public face" of the RSPCA.*
> *The person who has been answering emails appears to have some sensible understanding of the situation*.
> 
> She says an RSPCA Inspector has been out - and Helen has had contact with one, who (I believe Helen said) sounded like she did at least _want_ to do something. This Julie certainly seems to accept that these were attacks and not an illness. She says, too, that the RSPCA has caught some birds - though she may be getting confused with Lesley having got them.
> ...


Hi John.
This is exactly what I pointed out yesterday in my most recent email.
What is highlighted below was also highlighted in my original email.
I don't look to receive a reply, as it will be impossible for Ms. Holmes to justify her inane statement.

Cindy

* * * *

Dear Ms. Julie Threlfall and Heather Holmes,

I have been following this horrific act of cruelty very closely that is taking place in Middleton, where pigeons are being mutilated and left for dead in the Middleton Town Center.

Julie, you infer, *privately*, that the damage done to these pigeons are acts of cruelty. (Please note copies of your replies posted below) 

Heather, you infer, *publicly*, that pigeons are very difficult to capture and it's hard to imagine being able to 'rip off' their beaks without causing damage to their heads and then releasing them into the town center. Therefore, this damage is most likely disease related.
http://www.middletonguardian.co.uk/news/s/210/210273_police_to_probe_bird_cruelty_claims.html

Perhaps you need to broaden your imagination a bit and consider the possibility there is some deranged person(s) who has *stolen* pigeons from another's loft *or* has acquired some pigeons and held them *captive*, for the sole purpose of intentionally mutilating them and then displaying them in the town center, all the while they are encountering a slow and painful death.

In your opinion, Heather, what type disease would cause a pigeon to lose it's beak in a *'straight line' *manner? 

The RSPCA's refusal to *publicly* admit there is an abuse problem going on in your area is appalling. 

I'm quite sure you are aware this story has gained international exposure and attention, and will continue to do so until you folks lose your apathetic attitude and address the real problem at hand.

Cynthia Boyce
Mesa, Arizona USA
email address: [email protected]

* * * *


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Bravo, Cindy.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cindy, that's an excellent letter.

fp


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Proud of you Cindy... Way to go


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Wonderful letter, Cindy. Very articulate and well-written.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well I spoke to Inspector Byrnes again this afternoon and told her it was Heather Holmes who had issued that statement. I also told her the statement had gone out on Television yesterday at which point she said "Oh No! If that's what's been said then our name is mud."
I told her that's exactly what it was at the moment and she sounded extremely worried. She said that if that was the case then the public had been misinformed and a new statement would have to be issued retracting the old statement and informing the public that this is indeed a mutilation and therefore a cruelty case. She does know Heather, but has never heard of Julie Threllfall.
Anyway....... that's the latest so far.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Frontline*

 Well as you say Helen, the RSPCA people on the frontline, Julie and Inspector Byrne are confirming that the birds have been attacked. I am glad that Inspector Byrne has been in touch with Laura and then onto you to thaw and weigh the birds for their inspection.

It really does sound now that things are moving in the right direction and yes hopefully a retraction of Heather Holmes statement about an illness will be retracted publicly.

Good going - you are doing a fantastic job up there. 

Tania x


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Nooti said:


> . She said that if that was the case then the public had been misinformed and a new statement would have to be issued retracting the old statement and informing the public that this is indeed a mutilation and therefore a cruelty case.
> Anyway....... that's the latest so far.


This is great news Nooti. I was really happy to see this post from you. So the message is getting through. You are doing a great job by not letting them off with saying it was a disease.

Cameron


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*RSPCA update . . . Reply from Julie*



John_D said:


> The problem here seems to be the "public face" of the RSPCA.
> 
> *The person who has been answering emails appears to have some sensible understanding of the situation.* She says an RSPCA Inspector has been out - and Helen has had contact with one, who (I believe Helen said) sounded like she did at least _want_ to do something.
> 
> ...


Hi Folks,
I just received an email from Julie (posted below).

Cindy

_Hi,
When I replied to these people I was relying entirely on the information they had given to me. I havn't seen any of these birds myself so please do not take my comments as 100% fact.
I was informed by many concerned members of public that birds were being "attacked" so replied to them in the same manner. They were described as "Acts of cruelty" so I used the same phrase in my replies as I had no other information to the contrary. Sorry if I have misled anyone, but I have been assured that if it is found that someone is responsible for these incidents then action will be taken.
Heather Holmes is the local press officer if you need any more information.
Julie Threlfall_


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Animal Aid*

Animal Aid is a UK orgnaisation that abhors any cruety to animals from game shooting, horse racing, vivisection anything - when we were all e-mailling like crazy last week - I sent one to them too as a source of help. Well they have only come back to me today with

_Dear Tania

I’m so sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I have been out of the office for a few days.

This is absolutely horrific. Nice to see the good old RSPCA springing into action - not. I suppose they feel that pigeons don’t count and aren’t worth wasting time on. Isn’t that horrible? Unfortunately I’m at a loss as to what to suggest though. The police probably won’t take it very seriously, especially if the RSPCA isn’t bothered, but sadly it’s those two organisations that could try to do something about it. Are the pigeons who are being mutilated all in one area? How regularly is it happening? Do you know if it is still going on? I’ll ask others here about what they suggest we do and will get back to you asap.

Best wishes
Claudia Tarry
Head of Campaigns_

I have informed Claudia, that at the moment, we seem to be making slight leaps and bounds from last week but have told her if we need further help I will ask her.

Tania


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Tania,

Claudia of Animal Aid sounds sincerely interested in this situation. Have you sent her information found in this thread here by any chance? It could fill her in on the details and might be helpful. I would send it myself if I knew what her E-mail was.

Hey Linda, Soy Yo Cameron? ..Oh my Spanish is so bad, oh well..

Great letter by the way. You made a good point the other day about how people might start misinterpreting the comments concerning bird illness. I had not thought of that till you mentioned it. After re-reading the news article though it is plain that first time readers would think pigeons are sick and even possibly dangerous. A media retraction and correction is essential in fairness to the birds and to all of those working on this terrible case.

Cameron


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Claudia*

Hi Camrron

I have sent you a private e-mail with Claudia's e-mail address.

Thanks for that

Tania


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

You are very welcome Tania, and thanks for that too!

BTW Kittypaws, I still have a bad computer monitor, I thought I might tell you one day though about your Avatar. On my computer it looks a bit like a pair of hands throttling a trout.

Just thought you would find that a little amusing!

Cameron


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Tania, your message came up as undeliverable for some reason. Perhaps PM me and I can get the message that way. Thanks,

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Cameron,
I found myself in a deleting mood. How do we get ahold of Heather Holmes?


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Those hands*



Camrron said:


> BTW Kittypaws, I still have a bad computer monitor, I thought I might tell you one day though about your Avatar. On my computer it looks a bit like a pair of hands throttling a trout.
> 
> Just thought you would find that a little amusing!
> 
> Cameron


Those hands belong to a very competent nurse called Lynne - the reason she is showing the pigeon like she is, is because he had very bad feet and lost most of his toes - the camera angle was to show the poor old feet and what was left of them. Don't laugh - I now have Royal Mail stamps printed with the pigeon picture on ( being throttled!!) ....... and right next to the Queen too!! Boo Hiss..... 

E-mail me your personal e-mail - I am [email protected] and I'll send Claudia's address through to you.

Tania


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Well I didn't know any of that Tania so no need to Boo Hiss at me.

Cameron


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Eek*

Camrron - I haven't offended you have I? 

Tania

PS - All sorted now........


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

kittypaws said:


> Camrron - I haven't offended you have I?
> 
> Tania
> 
> PS - All sorted now........


Thanks Tania for writing me. It is sorted out. I think I may have been having one of those seniors moments and misunderstood you a bit because of the mad face in your post and I thought you were mad at me. I will go back and look at your previous posts to find out more about your Avatar. Sorry if I offended. I thought the Trout remark was pretty funny at the time but then I had no idea what your pic actually meant. I really have to upgrade my monitor. It still looks like a trout! Sorry again,

A big hug goes out for you.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi All, 

My screen is clear, bright and crisp too, but I can see where Cam thought it looked like a trout. It's the overall shape of the picture subject and the tail especially.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Poor old Toto*

Toto - that his name - as he only has two toes left ( toe-toe) - Toto - geddit?

I shall advise him that he is the laughing stock of Pigeons.com !!! ( Looking trout-like)And such a braveheart too. 

If you go to my thread "Bad Feet Can't Catch Him" you will see him in a larger picture and see that he is indeed a pigeon!

Only joking guys - whatever he looks like - he's alive and well and I guess enjoys being a pigeon with his mates.

Tania xx


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Animal Aid's comments*

I received this e-mail today from Claudia Tarry at Animal Aid (UK based animal charity)

_Hi Tania

What kind of disease tears birds beaks off their faces? What an outrageous claim. Thank god the local RSPCA is looking into it, and hopefully the police too. There are some seriously sick people out there – anyone who can do this is clearly not right in the head.

Hopefully whichever evil moron it is who is doing it has had his/her kicks and won’t mutilate any more of the poor pigeons, but do let me know if you need us to do anything.

All the best,
Claudia_

So if we need some extra help I can approach Animal Aid.

Tania


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Any Updated News On The Pigeons? 

Getting The Person Caught??

Any More Disfigured Pigeons Sighted?


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

I have also been wondering about those poor pigeons.
Is anyone keeping an eye out, in case there are additional pigeons in need of help?
Please let us know what's happening there. Thanks.

Phyll


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My screen is clear, bright and crisp too, but I can see where Cam thought it looked like a trout. It's the overall shape of the picture subject and the tail especially.



I thought it was a Trout also, or maybe a 'Cropie'...?

 
Phil
el ve


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kittypaws said:


> I received this e-mail today from Claudia Tarry at Animal Aid (UK based animal charity)
> 
> _Hi Tania
> 
> ...



Hi Tania, Claudia, all...

Trichomoniasis when localized in the mouth's corners, as when these become stretched to posess fine lesions, or are slightly torn from feeding Babys, can result in a localized and progressive infection which may result in the loss over time, of both the upper and lower Beak.

Now, a fast inspection of the actual Pigeon in question would immediately reveal whether this were the 'reason' for a missing Beak, or not...

But, as a conjecture made in absense of knowing more, or of knowing how many Birds were afflicted out of the blue, it is not in itself an unreasonable suggestion to have been made...

It was in fact my own first conjecture when initially hearing about this...before more info was forthcomeing.

So in short, "Illness" can do this, if differently than invasive violence from a person would...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Diane and Lesley (bird brain) are our members in Manchester that will be able to keep an eye open for any more injured pigeons, but Lesley lives about half an hour away from the spot that they were seen.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> ....
> 
> So in short, "Illness" can do this, if differently than invasive violence from a person would...
> 
> ...


Phil, I think it was the numbers of pigeons, all at once presenting this way that
raised an eyebrow in addition to the relatively good health that they otherwise exhibited.

fp


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

PICAS, too, were convinced it was trichomoniasis, even knowing there were 'several' of them. However, after I posted the link to the previous occurrences, I didn't hear from them again.

As Phil said, in the very first instance that could just be believable - until we found out more.

I had a call from a lady at the Metropolitan Police (London) today who said she had been trying to contact the wildlife officer(s) in Manchester Police, but without success. They seem to be either on leave or on permanent answering service!

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

John_D said:


> ..........
> 
> I had a call from a lady at the Metropolitan Police (London) today who said she had been trying to contact the wildlife officer(s) in Manchester Police, but without success. They seem to be either on leave or on permanent answering service!
> 
> John


And, it seems that the responsible party for the injured birds has stopped at this point, correct? No others have been found?

fp


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi fp,

We haven't had any further sightings that I know of. As Cynthia says, Diane & Lesley are on the spot or fairly near.

Of course, if this nutter has stopped, then the chances of catching him are slim. For the sake of the pigeons I hope he has stopped, but it would be a real bonus if he were caught.

The lady from the Met. gave me a number, but it wasn't the right guy. He did find me the number for the current wildlife crime officer in the area, but I just missed him this afternoon. I will try him again in the morning - at least he's not on leave.

John


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Good on you John*

I too was wondering but I was sure that Diane or Lesley would have let us know. We don't really want this to go too cold - we need the perpetrator caught but let's hope that this is the end of his mutilations....

And they ( Phil, Camrron, Brad and Mr Squeaks) being mean about poor Mr Toto - my avator!!!  You are just bad asses !!! I hope that's OK to say - I say it all the time after seeing the Jerry Springer Shows and the like 

Tania


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Folks - as far as I know there have been no more sightings. i'm sure I would have heard if there had been. I too am pretty doubtful the perpetrator will be caught.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

kittypaws said:


> ...
> 
> And they ( Phil, Camrron, Brad and Mr Squeaks) being mean about poor Mr Toto - my avator!!!  You are just bad asses !!! I hope that's OK to say - I say it all the time after seeing the Jerry Springer Shows and the like
> 
> Tania


The legacy of the 'Ugly American', go ahead, be like us  

I'm glad that there are no more incidents of mutilation, although, knowing that this person has gotten away, 'scott free', is angering.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

And they ( Phil, Camrron, Brad and Mr Squeaks) being mean about poor Mr Toto - my avator!!!  You are just bad asses !!! I hope that's OK to say - I say it all the time after seeing the Jerry Springer Shows and the like 

Tania[/QUOTE]

I am so sorry, Kittypaws!  Definitely a lapse in my discretion. I meant no harm and hope you know that. I have deleted my post.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Mr Squeaks*

I know you're just kidding - Toto when down on the ground and scooting around on his stumps looks like any regular pidgie!!!

Hey no problem - you didn't need to delete your post - I'm only joking along - he does look a bit like a trout - from a distance! 

And its good that there are no more mutilated pigeons - hopefully John can speak to the Police today to see if they have any further info.

Tania


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*RSPCA Response*

I had been waiting for an e-mail from the RSPCA to say that they had updated my enquiry about the Middleton Pigeons as previously this what they did. However I decided to check if I had a response and I did get one on the 28 March 2006 apparently. 

My e-mail to them is first with their answer second and there is some funny goings on with their answer I can tell you!!! 

_Dear RSPCA, 

I am distressed to hear that the RSPCA are refusing to assist with the collection and investigation of cruelty of some mutilated pigeons in Middleton Town Centre. The local paper have just published an article on how some of the pigeons have basically half their head missing after being mutilated by what looks like pliers..... 

The sight of the pigeons is extremely distressing as they have no beaks or front of face and can not eat nor drink and are slowly starving. I know other people have also tried to contact you regarding this. 

Somebody has been deliberately cruel to these pigeons and you are the RSPCA ( Royal Society for the Prevenetion of Cruelty to Animals) so why, oh why can you not assist with this. 

One lady, Lesley, is singled handedly trying to round the birds up but there are about 10 and she has only caught 2 so far. 

I would be grateful if you would explain to me why you feel that this is not your concern and why you won't help. Some monster if doing this to these birds and they are suffering. 

I look forward to hearing from you. 

Tania Gibbins _

THEIR REPLY

*Dear Ms Gibbins 

Thank you for your web enquiry. 

Please accept our apologies for the delay in responding to you, as we have been waiting for our Regional Office to investigate your concerns and pass their reply back to us. 

Our Regional Superintendent has now confirmed that to date they have not had the opportunity to actually examine a dead pigeon in order to ascertain whether cruelty has been involved, nor do they have any information as to who is responsible or where exactly the acts of mutilation are occuring. 

The description certainly sounds as if it is an act of cruelty as the beaks of some birds appear to have been severed cleanly according to reports. 

Initially it was believed that the mutilations to the pigeons' feet was related to a build up of excrement on the feet causing the foot to rot, which can sadly happen through natural causes. However this does not appear to be the case. 


EERRR - WHO MENTIONED FEET????? 

One of our regional officers is in contact with the Local Authority in the Middleton area and we continue to look into this matter. 

Thank you for your concerns. 

Kind regards 
RSPCA Enquiries Service *


Anyway hopefully this has stopped but I just thought others would like to see the wishywashy answer I received.....

Tania


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Tania, they obviously know what they are doing...I don't think!

A lot of the birds that I have taken in have been victims of predators and have lost most of the feathers from their back, chests and necks. This is, I believe, a common cause of loss of plummage, but apparently not in the RSPCA's eyes...it is not caused by disease therefore it must be directly attributable to human cruelty:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/4876272.stm

Cynthia


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

I saw the photo of the poor thing in the Metro ( free London paper) and it was bald almost apart from the small feathers around its head. Somebody found it behind a dustbin apparently - poor little thing... At least it is in good hands now - but how people get kicks out of doing something like that I really don't know.

Tania


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, hopefully, this is one that will have a happy ending for the little pigeon. It makes you want to weep at what some evil person will do to something smaller and defenceless.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Fortunately "Plucky" will be okay, but I am not convinced that it was an act of human cruelty because the feather loss on that pigeon is* identical *to the photographs of feather loss on squabs that were subject to parental cannibalism that I came across recently in Levi's The Pigeon.

This is a link to Plucky's photo: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006170432,00.html

This is the photo of the pigeons that had their pin feathers plucked by their parents:



Cynthia


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Cynthia,

You could be right - if so the RSPCA have got it wrong again as they are saying it is an act of cruelty!!! 

Tania


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