# Meuleman strain



## 1pigeon

i am interested in this stain since start racing,Wondering which loft carry best Meuleman.


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## hillfamilyloft

Not sure who has the best Muelmans. But Van Elsaker founded his loft from a few good muelmans from Michelson. The likes of Ludo Clausens also looked to Michelson for a few birds. I got the Ludo info from Warren, you may ask him if the Ludos are down from the Muelmans. I know the Van Elsaker crossed in some other birds such as the Simmons Janssens. Here is a link. CBS has Van Elsaker birds from time to time.
http://www.vanelsacker-jepsen.com/presentation.php#englisch
Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

1pigeon said:


> i am interested in this stain since start racing,Wondering which loft carry best Meuleman.


Hello 1 Pigeon,

The loft's which claim a "Meuleman" base, and are winning National One Loft competition, would be the loft I would select for the best "Meuleman's". 

Of course, in reality, the best you could say at this point, is that a particular loft has birds which are descendents of birds, and perhaps quite a number of generations distant, from birds bred by Meuleman, in their breeding program. Which really means, they are only Meuleman base.

The real question, is have you fallen in love with the story of a family of pigeons, from long ago, and now want to own some of their line bred descendents as a nostalgic kind of thing ? Or are you interested in owning racing pigeons which are going to be competitive in racing ?


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## 1pigeon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello 1 Pigeon,
> 
> The loft's which claim a "Meuleman" base, and are winning National One Loft competition, would be the loft I would select for the best "Meuleman's".
> 
> Of course, in reality, the best you could say at this point, is that a particular loft has birds which are descendents of birds, and perhaps quite a number of generations distant, from birds once bred by Meuleman, in their breeding program. Which really means, they are only Meuleman base.
> 
> The real question, is have you fallen in love with the story of a family of pigeons, from long ago, and now want to own some of their line bred descendents as a nostalgic kind of thing ? Or are you interested in owning racing pigeons which are going to be competitive in racing ?


HI Warren
i haven't read much about strains i choosed/buy all of my pigeons from there performed .... i have 1 Meuleman cock bird that got form Damon Raze. Bird won a few diplomas bred some winner. when i got this bird i really love him ..his eyes,body and how he walk,stand ....So i think i like to pairing him with the same strain..so start looking for 1 Meuleman hen. I worte to Horst Hackemer asked for 1 Meuleman hen since i live 50 min. from him but all of his birds sold out this year.
Warren about thinking winning or competitive in racing i have to hold back on that..this year i try to breed YB that come from performed breeders and race them with all my best and see how i doing.
Thanks


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## SmithFamilyLoft

1pigeon said:


> HI Warren
> ........................ i have 1 Meuleman cock bird that got form Damon Raze. Bird won a few diplomas bred some winner. when i got this bird i really love him ..his eyes,body and how he walk,stand ....So i think i like to pairing him with the same strain..so start looking for 1 Meuleman hen........Warren about thinking winning or competitive in racing i have to hold back on that..this year i try to breed YB that come from performed breeders and race them with all my best and see how i doing.
> Thanks


Just my two cents, and take it for what it is worth. I would give some serious consideration to this line of thinking. Take this pedigree that you have on this nice Cock bird that you have, and seal it in an envelope and lock it up somewhere and forget about it.  

Forget about "strain", especially one that is decades in the past....forget about pedigree....just pretend you caught him wild in a barn somewhere...and find the best hen that you can acquire. By that I mean a racing and a breeding history, and even more inportant then that, a hen which will compliment the physical traits of your cock bird.

My point is, forget what name or brand has been attached to this bird, you apparently got your hands on a decent cock bird, so go and pair it to a Champion type bird, and don't worry or concern yourself with the "strain". Instead concern yourself with how to go about finding an exceptional breeding canidate, and then you just might breed some more race winners, and then you have the start of a 1st Place Pigeon Strain....


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## 1pigeon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Just my two cents, and take it for what it is worth. I would give some serious consideration to this line of thinking. Take this pedigree that you have on this nice Cock bird that you have, and seal it in an envelope and lock it up somewhere and forget about it.
> 
> Forget about "strain", especially one that is decades in the past....forget about pedigree....just pretend you caught him wild in a barn somewhere...and find the best hen that you can acquire. By that I mean a racing and a breeding history, and even more inportant then that, a hen which will compliment the physical traits of your cock bird.
> 
> My point is, forget what name or brand has been attached to this bird, you apparently got your hands on a decent cock bird, so go and pair it to a Champion type bird, and don't worry or concern yourself with the "strain". Instead concern yourself with how to go about finding an exceptional breeding canidate, and then you just might breed some more race winners, and then you have the start of a 1st Place Pigeon Strain....


Thank for you advice warren.


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## hillfamilyloft

I agree with warren. If you are looking to be sucessful in racing, find the best hen you can find. You should look the the GHC for your needs. IF Horst is that close so are many fine birds. Look at the race records and visit that loft. If you do not want to pay big bucks, you can go the route of going to the GHC web page and look at their help a beginner program. You can pic decent birds up for free. 
Randy


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## westy

ive had this strain before nice pigeons they are.


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## 1pigeon

westy said:


> ive had this strain before nice pigeons they are.


Nice web site .


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## powerspigeons

Gotta Go With Mr Smith On This One. I Have About 20 Strains In My Loft And Most Trace Back To The Janssens Or Van Loon. I Try To Find Birds That Are Winning Big Race's And Build Around That. You Will Drive Yourself Crazy Trying To Aquire Only One Strain That Perform ,because Most Of The Birds That Are Winning Are Crossed With Everything Except The Kitchen Sink. Best Of Luck


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Not sure who has the best Muelmans. But Van Elsaker founded his loft from a few good muelmans from Michelson. The likes of Ludo Clausens also looked to Michelson for a few birds. I got the Ludo info from Warren, you may ask him if the Ludos are down from the Muelmans. I know the Van Elsaker crossed in some other birds such as the Simmons Janssens. Here is a link. CBS has Van Elsaker birds from time to time.
> http://www.vanelsacker-jepsen.com/presentation.php#englisch
> Randy


Randy,

I think I missed this some how...anyway, from all my reading, and from other better read pigeonologists, all of the great strains, or families of birds, normally have several birds from different fanciers in the family tree. Everyone starts from somewhere, and often a number of birds from different fanciers. And as the years and decades go on, other birds from other fanciers are crossed in. Which is why some people I believe, mistakenly think that there are no "Pure Bred" pigeons. To me that is like saying there are no pure bred dogs, because they all descend from wolves. 

Often, when the fancier is famous, even if a bird passes throught the loft, it becomes the name of the strain of the famous fancier. Ludo took in a stray, as the story goes and liked it. He found out the owner had died and got permission to keep it. It produced some good racers for Ludo, but he later sold it and moved on to better, now in the pedigrees of the pigeons, that the new owner sells for thousands of dollars, lists the "Strain" of this stray....why a Ludo Claessens of course.... 

This is why some fanciers dismiss the whole concept of the strain label attached to a pigeon, a generation or so removed from the famous breeder who name is still attached to a bird, he most often has never seen. I don't think that is always the correct view, but this might be for a different thread.

I can answer your question Randy with some authority, Ludo has crossed in birds from the top 1% of Dutch lofts from time to time over the last 35+ years, and I do know that an exceptional Michelson bird was used to produce some exceptional race winners, and some of them became important limbs in the Family Tree. Ludo listed them as "Michelson", so how or where this gentlemen was able to produce such an outstanding bird, I don't know.


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## re lee

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Randy,
> 
> I think I missed this some how...anyway, from all my reading, and from other better read pigeonologists, all of the great strains, or families of birds, normally have several birds from different fanciers in the family tree. Everyone starts from somewhere, and often a number of birds from different fanciers. And as the years and decades go on, other birds from other fanciers are crossed in. Which is why some people I believe, mistakenly think that there are no "Pure Bred" pigeons. To me that is like saying there are no pure bred dogs, because they all descend from wolves.
> 
> Often, when the fancier is famous, even if a bird passes throught the loft, it becomes the name of the strain of the famous fancier. Ludo took in a stray, as the story goes and liked it. He found out the owner had died and got permission to keep it. It produced some good racers for Ludo, but he later sold it and moved on to better, now in the pedigrees of the pigeons, that the new owner sells for thousands of dollars, lists the "Strain" of this stray....why a Ludo Claessens of course....
> 
> This is why some fanciers dismiss the whole concept of the strain label attached to a pigeon, a generation or so removed from the famous breeder who name is still attached to a bird, he most often has never seen. I don't think that is always the correct view, but this might be for a different thread.
> 
> I can answer your question Randy with some authority, Ludo has crossed in birds from the top 1% of Dutch lofts from time to time over the last 35+ years, and I do know that an exceptional Michelson bird was used to produce some exceptional race winners, and some of them became important limbs in the Family Tree. Ludo listed them as "Michelson", so how or where this gentlemen was able to produce such an outstanding bird, I don't know.


Strain to reset and improve on plus set certion quality improvements. This all takes time, many American racers do not take time, they want it now. Be it race or show top birds trace back to the top breeders when you look at pedigree. a person to build a solid family of birds NEVER wants to start out with more then 3 different lines to cross. Doing so with more takes much harder breeding programs longer result time. As you know You get the bad with the good when you cross the lines. Every person puts there hands on breeding as key birds leave a certion loft. These birds when crossed are base line birds. Or you can stay with the single line and breed your desires into the program. Sure they can be called the set strain name. BUT you see this mostly in AMERICA. other countries the breeder gets credit for his birds AMERICA name sells. .While pedigree info, and performance speaks its own truth. A racing homer is a known breed ,has been for many years started by a breed cross but set a foundation type. Now purebred goes to the fact it is a set breeding Racing homer. Family type goes to the very few that are the strain makers Knowing how to breed the type of birds they need to compete with. 20 different 
family strains makes for a long road As in pigeons winer x winner does not get winners. At many times winnners come from buts that are consistant placing near the top often. Or as for show Birds that carry enough balance to breed that into the young. Producing show winners. America many racing birds are sold by pedigree, where key birds are listed. The bird bought may have never raced may have raced and done poor. There you get a paper that shows great lineage, But the bird has to be tested. Bying birds that have won several races or was consistant in several races Proves you got what you paid for. Less chance you bought a mule that looked like a race horse. TAKE the time, buy right, build slow, test results, Keep records, And in time you get to hit the top of the race sheet with your birds. THE best birds in the world not maintained or sold to a person that could not breed them right, are then now better then the 2 dollar bird aND THERE BREEDING GOES DOWN HILL from not working them right in the breeding loft. I have said it befor The prepotent bird which comes along just every so often Is the main key when reconized. You could almost breed it to a rock and raise a good pigeon.That prepotent bird will show in pedigrees of many winning birds. LOOK at all the top breeders They list just a few top birds and then several winning birds bred off those top birds Is the key buying winners after winners or finding or breeding those few key birds that put a mark for years to come on any top loft out there The old saying you have to develop the minds eye for seeing and breeding the birds you choose Strain / family are both the same Out cross family lines for 1 purpose thats improvement. But it is easyer to first is build that foundation befor you tear it down Then when you out cross you know what you want and know how to get it. To many buy and buy pretty birds and then are upset because they never win long or at all. It costs less buying a few good birds at first then years of buying unkown birds ! top pair breeds more winners then 10 20 30 pair of unkown stock. AND in the end quality can be seen all over the loft. I guess I went on more then I needed. Hope I made some sence


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## Boenairgeez

i believe your thoughts on strains makes much sense Warren. Except where they have taken pains to continue the strain and to stay genetically sound. i do believe once you leave the original breeder they become different as the same hand is not guiding them. When they came to the fellow who made them they were already all mixed up anyway.


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## soymi69

Check out www.racingpigeonusa.com he has some good muelmen and very reasonable price to.


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## Xueoo

1pigeon said:


> HI Warren
> i haven't read much about strains i choosed/buy all of my pigeons from there performed .... i have 1 Meuleman cock bird that got form Damon Raze. Bird won a few diplomas bred some winner. when i got this bird i really love him ..his eyes,body and how he walk,stand ....So i think i like to pairing him with the same strain..so start looking for 1 Meuleman hen. I worte to Horst Hackemer asked for 1 Meuleman hen since i live 50 min. from him but all of his birds sold out this year.
> Warren about thinking winning or competitive in racing i have to hold back on that..this year i try to breed YB that come from performed breeders and race them with all my best and see how i doing.
> Thanks


To keep the blood as close as you can to the cock you have, look at his pedigree and see where the birds line originated from and go see if there are any available from that source. 

For example, I have birds down from Oak Haven Farms bred close to Verona, 083, 048/049, etc. I look to see who else has birds bred close to these, and if I need to breed out one year, I go looking to those lofts who have birds close to mine. You may be able to get a direct cousin or close family to yours. Of course everybody breeds and selects different and theirs may or may not be on par with yours, but you know they are bred the same as yours and it give you some predictability. If those said lofts are also flying good, you can assume it will likely be a good cross to yours. Always Keep performance in mind when choosing, but, "bred for stock" is just as good.


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## West

Have any pictures of your Meulemans? I've always been fascinated by this particular family. Also curious on the process of importing from Herman Beverdam.


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## realtalk72

*pigeon strain ?*

Im not sure if this is spelled corectly but has any one heard of HAVERENT STRAIN of racing homer?


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## fresnobirdman

To SmithFamilyLoft, So does ludo cross Hofkens into his birds too?
I saw in a ped from Ron Disher that ludo's are from Hofkens...


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## JaxRacingLofts

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Just my two cents, and take it for what it is worth. I would give some serious consideration to this line of thinking. Take this pedigree that you have on this nice Cock bird that you have, and seal it in an envelope and lock it up somewhere and forget about it.
> 
> Forget about "strain", especially one that is decades in the past....forget about pedigree....just pretend you caught him wild in a barn somewhere...and find the best hen that you can acquire. By that I mean a racing and a breeding history, and even more inportant then that, a hen which will compliment the physical traits of your cock bird.
> 
> My point is, forget what name or brand has been attached to this bird, you apparently got your hands on a decent cock bird, so go and pair it to a Champion type bird, and don't worry or concern yourself with the "strain". Instead concern yourself with how to go about finding an exceptional breeding canidate, and then you just might breed some more race winners, and then you have the start of a 1st Place Pigeon Strain....



I am impressed with your insight Warren...I agree 100%. The advice given to me was.. Don't buy a bird for its pedigree buy a bird for its race / breeding record.
I have handled thousands of dollars worth of birds that should be considered culls with outstanding pedigrees..they have'nt won a race or bred a diploma winner. People only hold onto them because of the high price they paid and the pedigrees. Hoping someday they might just find the magic combination to breed a half way decent bird.
Granted all breeding is a gamble but letting a pedigree cloud the race results and your better judgment is a mistake in my opinion..unless you just want to be a high dollar pigeon farmer.
I like the breeding methods of the Belgium's they are not afraid to cross in the best birds from other lofts to improve their own. The race results are all the pedigree they need to read. 
Like Warren said it appears you have a good bird...pair it up with an even better hen and your chances to improve your stock will go up.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

fresnobirdman said:


> To SmithFamilyLoft, So does ludo cross Hofkens into his birds too?
> I saw in a ped from Ron Disher that ludo's are from Hofkens...


 First of all, keep in mind that Ludo Claessen is now retired from pigeon racing. He is still a young man, but he has taken the wealth that pigeons brought him, and found other things to do with his family.

If you review the Claessen pigeon family tree on my web site at : http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoHistory1.htm

That, along with the interview of Mr. Claessen, should clear up the questions of how the Claessen pigeons were developed. It is a well known established fact, that Ludo was a Grand Master in the art of selection. This ability made him a millionaire. When he went looking for the very best to improve his colony, he didn't ask to read the pedigrees........he looked at the bird, and I don't think he cared what the name of the "strain" was. He was known for being willing to pay top dollar, for an exceptional bird. I don't know if he ever acquired a pigeon from a Mr. Hofkens or not. I don't recall ever seeing that name show up in any pedigree that I have ever seen, and I have looked at quite a few. 

Having said all that, I have noticed a lot of pigeons in the USA being sold as "Ludo's" but when one examines the supposed pedigrees, you will see a lot of 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th generation birds from the orginals, with numerous crosses in the back grounds. I suspect that is what you have seen. 

It is my understanding, that a Meuleman pigeon was introduced into the Ludo pigeon family at some point. But, if one researches the subject, one can find a number of top fanciers and their birds, who left a genetic imprint on the Ludo pigeons. If you think about it, that has to be true with all of the famous strains. They didn't start their families from all wild stock, but did use pigeons which were bred by others from time to time.


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## Mader631

interesting.....


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*The Smith Family Loft Meulemans*



1pigeon said:


> i am interested in this stain since start racing,Wondering which loft carry best Meuleman.


 Since this thread was started back in 2007, I spent additional time researching the Meuleman influence on the Ludo Claessen strain, and even went and read the book by Meuleman. Long story short, I was introduced to a couple in Holland by the names of Willem Mielekamp and Brenda Hendriks, who have a wonderful family of birds based on pigeons acquired from Mr. Meuleman. I don't think I could have been able to communicate with him, but between his girl friend Brenda, my Google translator, and my friendship with Ludo Claessen, doors were opened for me, and I was able to acquire some stock with the understanding that I would cross with my lines from Ludo. 

I shared this short clip on another thread, to be able to share with my friends in Holland what the cross has produced so far. It will show two receessive red hens from this Meuleman based family, as well as the results from a cross with my Ludo birds. And yes I know, I should not give up my day job to become a video recording star ! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKENsH1mc


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## Xueoo

Looks like you're really trying to copy Ludo.


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## Xueoo

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Just my two cents, and take it for what it is worth. I would give some serious consideration to this line of thinking. Take this pedigree that you have on this nice Cock bird that you have, and seal it in an envelope and lock it up somewhere and forget about it.
> 
> Forget about "strain", especially one that is decades in the past....forget about pedigree....just pretend you caught him wild in a barn somewhere...and find the best hen that you can acquire. By that I mean a racing and a breeding history, and even more inportant then that, a hen which will compliment the physical traits of your cock bird.
> 
> My point is,* forget what name or brand has been attached to this bird*, you apparently got your hands on a decent cock bird, so go and pair it to a Champion type bird, and *don't worry or concern yourself with the "strain"*. Instead concern yourself with how to go about finding an exceptional breeding canidate, and then you just might breed some more race winners, and then you have the start of a 1st Place Pigeon Strain....


You didn't take you're own advice?


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## Xueoo

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Since this thread was started back in 2007, *I spent additional time researching the Meuleman influence on the Ludo Claessen strain*, and even went and read the book by Meuleman. Long story short, I was introduced to a breeder in Holland by the name of W. Mielekamp B. Hendriks, who has a wonderful family of birds based on pigeons acquired from Mr. Meuleman. I don't think I could have been able to communicate with him, but between his girl friend, Google translator, and my friendship with Ludo Claessen, doors were opened for me, and *I was able to acquire some stock with the understanding that I would cross with my lines from Ludo.*
> 
> I shared this short clip on another thread, to be able to share with my friends in Holland what the cross has produced so far. It will show two receessive red hens from this Meuleman based family, as well as the results from a cross with my Ludo birds. And yes I know, I should not give up my day job to become a video recording star !
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKENsH1mc


I meant by this...


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Xueoo said:


> You didn't take you're own advice?



OK, you caught me, I'm busted...sort of....

Most people are not able or willing to financially do what I do, so my advice was generic advice for the every day hobbyist and fancier. Best I can figure I have well into six figures "invested" into my hobby. If I would have suggested that the typical reader do what I do, then I am sure I would have been subjected to all kinds of criticism. Many fanciers believe, or want to believe, that one does not have to invest a lot of money to have good pigeons. That one simply can accept free handouts from their fellow club or combine members and soon have a loft full of world class pigeons. Maybe they can, or maybe they can't. I am on a quest to build my own performance family, and in my personal situation it seems I am required to draw from lofts in Holland to get the quality I need for my purposes.

If someday I come across a pigeon that looks better then what I own, I may use it as well, without regard to the pedigree or lack thereof. In this particular case, I was introduced to Willem and Brenda, a friendship developed, and one thing led to another and it was Willem who really convinced me that his Meuleman line should be tested on my Ludo and Smith family lines. We shall see how this all turns out.


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## Xueoo

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> OK, you caught me, I'm busted...sort of....
> 
> Most people are not able or willing to financially do what I do, so my advice was generic advice for the every day hobbyist and fancier. Best I can figure I have well into seven figures "invested" into my hobby. If I would have suggested that the typical reader do what I do, then I am sure I would have been subjected to all kinds of criticism. Many fanciers believe, or want to believe, that one does not have to invest a lot of money to have good pigeons. That one simply can accept free handouts from their fellow club or combine members and soon have a loft full of world class pigeons. Maybe they can, or maybe they can't. *I am on a quest to build my own performance family, and in my personal situation it seems I am required to draw from lofts in Holland to get the quality I need for my purposes.*
> If someday I come across a pigeon that looks better then what I own, I may use it as well, without regard to the pedigree or lack thereof. In this particular case, I was introduced to Willem and Brenda, a friendship developed, and one thing led to another and it was Willem who really convinced me that his Meuleman line should be tested on my Ludo and Smith family lines. We shall see how this all turns out.


It's hard for the non-professional breeders like myself to decifer all the information because of being pulled in all directions by the pro breeders. I thought you were simply reverting back to amateurish behavior or something.

On another note, I'm interested in your bolded statement above. Maybe we can have an open discussion on the topic to better everybody's breeding success.


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## RPUSA

Let me give you take on this and lets hope no one gets offended. 
I prefer not to use the word strain but Family which may be the same to some. 
I would like to address a few of the statements in the previous posts. To say the
Europeons or the rest of the world don't look at name and perfomance on a pedigress
is nonsense. I will admit they accept the name of the fancier who's winning apllied to
the family of birds much easier than in the USA. When looking for pigeons we must understand
why are we buying new pigeons in the first place? We are all trying to imporove our race results 
and breed better pigeons! I think many fanciers over look some of the enjoyment in pigeons by
only concentrating on winning. Let me explain! To me the biggest joy in raising pigeons is you have your own 
little kindom to rule over - YOUR THE BOSS!! One wants to win but in this kingdom you get to decide who
mates to who, what system, what kind of feed, and every decesion little or big. Win or Lose!!
There are many roads to the winners circle and you get to decide which one to take or maybe even make your own path to the 

top!!

Now back to the original question - Meulemans -

I think I can talk with some authority on this subject having cultivated a family of winning Meulemans 
over the past 16 years. I and many of my customers have had great succces with the birds and even others mentioned in this
post are breeding and winning from this stock currently. Many of these pigeons are only one generation away from birds 
from Meuleman himself. Warren suggest not looking at pedigrees but I believe this is a mistake. Just look at the big money animal 
sport in the world - HORSE RACING - this sport spends millions on their horses and they to pay close attetion to the pedigrees.
Warren himself admitts to looking at pedigrees - 

One must use every tool at his disposal to develop world class racing pigeons money, pedigree(including lineage.race records),
observation of body type and conformation, and one's own common sense. Everyone has varing degrees of the above at his 

disposal some more of one than others. Do you want to just look at the pedigrees of two pigeons and mate them together based on 
whats on the paper? I would say no, but this may work. My own personal way of breeding is a combination of the tools talked 

about. So lets take them one by one.

Money - Only you can decide how much to spend on your birds. Keep in mind big dollars does not buy instant succes, it might
buy you a better chance but even high dollars birds off National champions can turn out to be duds. Soend your money 
wisely after looking at a fancier race results and talking to him to know that you feel cofortable that the fancier will try and do
his best for you. Many peopel out there will sell you anything with a feather for a buck.

Pedigree - This tool you can use by looking at the records of the bird your buying as well as his parent - grandparents and so 

forth. What I look for here is a pattern of the same birds showing up several times in a pedigree of in a majority of winning bird
from a fancier some of these birds can also be found in many other fliers pedigrees. Some big time names - 019 - De 46 -Silver 

Boy and many others show a pattern of passing their winning genes on. In my family of Meuleman it's "Super 536" he is the 

foundation - key pigeon- Many winners down from this cock as well as all aroung him. Brothers, sisters, children, grand children 

and so forth the list goes on with winners in this family of muelemans. After breeding and racing children of "536" for a few 

years I paid close attention to the pedigree and went backwards buying uncle and aunts as well as relatives bred down from great 

grandparents and the alike. You are buying the work and success of another fancier you hope to carry on into your birds.

Body Type- This is where selection comes in as Warren had mentioned about Ludo. This for some is something that needs to 
be cultivated by reading about top birds looking at pictures and above all handling top racer and breeders when ever you can.
Some people have a inate sense of what their looking for and ability to pick out the top pigeons like Ludo. But many a beginner 
and even some veteran fancier have destroyed a family or pigeons by not paying close attetion to the above. Even with top 

pigeons one must cull heavily to keep the triats and type that establish a world class family of pigeons. I myself even after breedig 

my Meuleman family for years cull quite a few birds every year through racing and by conformatioin. There are sevral
books out there on breeding that you should read on breeding of racers. This helps you with the thought and procces of champion 
breeders selection. As always though read and keep only what makes sense to you. I would reccomend never blindly follow 

anyone's advice. Remember your the KING!

Common Sense - This is a hard one because of a million variables - Here is where you decide what is right and wrong and you
pay the price for every decisoin. My advice to all pigeon racers exspecially newer racers - DON'T RUSH - to stay in this hooby
you must enjoy the proccess not just the feeling of winning a race. Enjoy the process of mating up your birds and seeing what 
young ones this year turn out the best. Enjoy training the young one how to trap, watching them route, and coming home from 

their first toss. Pigeon Racing is a 365 days a year commitment if all you get is enjoyment from winnig you won't last long. 

Winning is the motivation for trying harder, getting up earlier to train and doing what you need to do to be competitive. 
You must love the birds and the exprience of getting there to stay in this hobby.

Michael Sordahl 

http://www.PigeonUSA.com


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## re lee

Several good points are being told Not only about 1 strain line but the birds in general. ! other thing many miss. IS buying birds over seas. Where yes there are some rather good birds. But the fact to. Here in America we fly them different. . Now many clubs fly around the clock. Where over seas Many places never do. They fly the same race stations year after year after year. Makes it some what easyer to build a better line of birds FOR that type of race. 2. We fly young birds often further then some would fly there old birds over seas. 3 our old bird races can go to the 600 mile And change directions each year. THIS makes it harder to build that line of birds as easy. 4 We import birds every year to the U S And results do not keep improving. As those imports were raised and bred to fly as they do ovewr there. We have to build there off spring to fly for us. Sure there are some rather good birds brought in. And have helped. BUT with over 100 years of raciong in the US. why have we not gained the respect. BECAUSE we do fly different. AND our states are like there whole country in size. So we have smaller races. Not 10,000 bird races And more. The U S birds if All clubs went to 1 directions same race station year after year. And flew young like they do Often not more then 200 miles And Specialized in certion types We would do as good. If they like begium holland flew like we do the 4 corners. the longer young bird races and longer old bird races Would things be a little different. Yes Something to think about.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Xueoo said:


> It's hard for the non-professional breeders like myself to decifer all the information because of being pulled in all directions by the pro breeders. I thought you were simply reverting back to amateurish behavior or something.
> 
> On another note, I'm interested in your bolded statement above. Maybe we can have an open discussion on the topic to better everybody's breeding success.


Problem is, one must take what I say and consider the context in which it was used. One of the problems (of which there are many) is the use of terms such as "family", "strain", "pedigree". You can use one of these terms in a conversation with pigeon people, and you can get numerous perspectives. It can become frustrating at times because what one is trying to communicate, can be taken to mean something all together different. 

Compounding the "problem", is that for the most part IMHO. The "name" applied to a pigeon's "family" or "strain", for the most part...say 98% of the time, when talking with your typical fancier for the sake of discussion, is totally meaningless. 

And forget about the pro-breeders, with pigeons, most fanciers are already "experts" by their third year in the sport, and are already willing and able to provide lessons to anyone who is willing to listen. I heard of a local blind test, where two pigeons were passed around a room. One was a real honest to goodness AU/IF type Champion with a dozen Combnine wins to his credit, and the other was a complete dud in many ways. However, by telling the fanciers that the dud was a so and so "strain" which was a real hot seller in the markets....majority all agreed that the "dud" was the better of the two birds. Because the real Champ was labeled as simply a four way "cross". That convinced me, that too many folks are paying too much attention to the marketing, and not enough attention to the bird in the hand. It's not that a bird's heritage is totally unimportant, but if the bird is a "dud" then giving it a great "strain" or "family" name or a pretty pedigree, ain't gonna make it a champ. If the bird in your hand is junk, then it really don't matter that generations ago, the ancestors were part of a good fancier's loft.

That was all I ever was trying to communicate. Most pigeion guys, as well as most pigeon merchants, are going to breed mostly fairly average pigeons. That is mathmatically a fact. Exceptional pigeons are not very common. One can attempt to track down a particular brand or label, and acquire most likely a fairly common pigeon, but have the "name" or "brand" you are seeking. Or one can first and formost, attempt to acquire an exceptional pigeon, first and formost, and not be so concerned with the marketing "name" the breeder has attached to it. 

If someone can explain why my perspective is wrong, then I certainly welcome them to try to educate me as to the proper perspective. My thought process in terms of building a genetic line has been an evolutionary process, and subject to change as new data becomes available.


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## re lee

There will never be any new idea. It takes years of woprk to develop a sound loft and breeding program. The idea will allways be the same To achive a consistanbt breding and in this case a flying/racing group of birds that can compete with the area they are trainbed and raced in. Now buying this bird and that bird NO matter how great some one wants to say it is Can help or most often hinder a program.. Crosss this with that and that with this And some luck happens BUT select a bird just 1 bird that fits right with what you are wanting And soon you see that improvement. Because nobody starts out learning to run. But everybody can learn to walk first. Look at any body be it the birds. Race cars race horses On and on. It took them years to get to a higher level. And even then after that they still have work hard to keep that level. Good birds are hird to find BUT every year people buy Thinking THEN that this bird is great. To only find out They had as good or better in there loft allready. So selectioin comes from thought on real need NOT the new fad. A family of birds well there should be several family lines in a good breeding loft. PUTTING all thing in 1 basket that basket breaks. As race birds are dealt the weathere conditions. And other things that facter in. AND there will be only 1 best from each pairing in any given year. Some family lines may produce a few better birds that year then say another line did. But never close the door. Cross line birds Are still within a family group line IF selection is donw. THERE are most often NO pure lines As that would take many years to develop. BUT there are birds that become YOUR line. But they are that your line. Sell them to charlie or billy And they breed them They are starting to be there line. They just have your base line in the back ground. BUT a pedigree. Really a loft record. Is all most a certion must to keep YOU that person going. And tell who ever you sell a bird to how YOU bred up that bird. Which in part is useful for them. ONLY if the birds works for them. Finding that pre potent bird. It only comes along every so many years And often missed. And MOSt would only sell it IF they had bred from it for several years. You buying it Does not mean it will change your loft But theres that chance it will. This is a hobby And if it becomes more It gets lost in selling bird after bird. BECAUSE NO loft in the world has only good/ great birds. And no pair of birds will ever produce only good/great birds. If ever some one says or thinks they will have some one pinch them because they are dreaming. Just a few people take it to a level because they understood what they really wanted and did something to get there. BUT look at those people some it took most a lifetime. some it took taking over from there families birds. And some it took only a mere 20 30 years. MOSt though did not buy there way to the top they bred there way to there. Buying only certion birds.


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## broodboy

RPUSA I totally agree with you 100% your views is exactly how I feel, and I will be calling you soon to do buisness. I see clearly you are someone who I would trust your breeding methods and selection habits in your birds to be crossed into my birds. I am still new to th pigeon racing sport only being in it for 2 1/2 years, but I am in know way a stranger to genetics with breeding performance bred animals. To not acknowledge a pedigree is the first road to know where, you must know as much as possible about your birds lineage to go forward. It is a combination of all the details to be able to produce and do well in the future, results, pedigree and good health and truly enjoying your birds is the key to the top and having a long standing there. Once again well said RPUSA.


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## rpalmer

I had a very successful ($$$$) horse breeder tell me years ago, "It cost the same to raise registered stock as it does grade". All animals are the same in that regard.


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## broodboy

RPUSA I totally agree with you 100% your views is exactly how I feel, and I will be calling you soon to do buisness. I see clearly you are someone who I would trust your breeding methods and selection habits in your birds to be crossed into my birds. I am still new to th pigeon racing sport only being in it for 2 1/2 years, but I am in know way a stranger to genetics with breeding performance bred animals. To not acknowledge a pedigree is the first road to know where, you must know as much as possible about your birds lineage to go forward. It is a combination of all the details to be able to produce and do well in the future, results, pedigree and good health and truly enjoying your birds is the key to the top and having a long standing there. Once again well said RPUSA.


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## hilltop

realtalk72 said:


> Im not sure if this is spelled corectly but has any one heard of HAVERENT STRAIN of racing homer?


I think its Havenith, an absolutely fabulous strain,,equal to the Sions, these guys swapped birds [ in the day ] some are still available in the N.Y. area,,I really like them ,,I owned one that won the concourse,then he won 1st in the show,,,then produced a bunch of off spring that were winner after winner,..dont be afraid of good ones if ur intrested....HARRY


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## honeyrobber

rpalmer said:


> I had a very successful ($$$$) horse breeder tell me years ago, "It cost the same to raise registered stock as it does grade". All animals are the same in that regard.


This is true with all aniamls. The cost to get the animal to begin with is much higher. I raised TN Walkers years ago. I never owned a stud othher than colts. I could not afford a real stud. I bred to world champions because a colt out of them would bring that much more over just a registered colt. My first round of homers is going to be stock. If I decide to stay with them I will spend the money to get a real pair.


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## Jaysen

I know I'm late to the conversation and coming from the position of uninformed "idiot" new guy, but... 

What's the point? 30 years ago guys in average markets like mine could make a few bucks racing birds. By make a few bucks I mean "pay for their habit". Today there is no way to even recoup the costs of shipping let alone feed and loft costs. 

Warren has said that he has seven six figures invested in developing his birds. That is $1,000,000 $100,000. More than I will spend on groceries for 127 12.7 years! The pool of money in this sport is so small that I can't imagine what folks hope to get from all these expensive birds. 

Then again, I don't expect to win. It would be nice, but I won't die if I don't.


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## West

He said six figures, bit of a difference.


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## Jaysen

West said:


> He said six figures, bit of a difference.


Not that it make the numbers less staggering...

I have changed my original post. The erroneousness numbers are in red. 

I think the point is still valid.


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## hilltop

honeyrobber said:


> This is true with all aniamls. The cost to get the animal to begin with is much higher. I raised TN Walkers years ago. I never owned a stud othher than colts. I could not afford a real stud. I bred to world champions because a colt out of them would bring that much more over just a registered colt. My first round of homers is going to be stock. If I decide to stay with them I will spend the money to get a real pair.


I think your reply is to some one else....sorry i dont understand it....Hilltop


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## RPUSA

Hi again!!
All I can say as far as the amount you spend is up to you!! When people ask about what I pay for birds and you get a strange look or I can't believe that.
What I say in return is some people spend $20,000 - $30,000 on a bass boat -some thousands on hunting - some on gambling on and on. This is one of my passions and thats where I spend money in pursuit of it. Do you have to spend thousands to do OK - No you don't!! Once again it's your choice on what you do and how you do it. So enjoy what ever level you're at keep working on it to the level that makes you happy.
Michael

http://www.pigeonusa.com


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## g0ldenb0y55

RPUSA said:


> Hi again!!
> All I can say as far as the amount you spend is up to you!! When people ask about what I pay for birds and you get a strange look or I can't believe that.
> What I say in return is some people spend $20,000 - $30,000 on a bass boat -some thousands on hunting - some on gambling on and on. This is one of my passions and thats where I spend money in pursuit of it. Do you have to spend thousands to do OK - No you don't!! Once again it's your choice on what you do and how you do it. So enjoy what ever level you're at keep working on it to the level that makes you happy.
> Michael
> 
> http://www.pigeonusa.com


I agree 100%! Well said.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Jaysen said:


> I know I'm late to the conversation and coming from the position of uninformed "idiot" new guy, but...
> 
> What's the point? 30 years ago guys in average markets like mine could make a few bucks racing birds. By make a few bucks I mean "pay for their habit". Today there is no way to even recoup the costs of shipping let alone feed and loft costs.
> 
> Warren has said that he has seven six figures invested in developing his birds. That is $1,000,000 $100,000. More than I will spend on groceries for 127 12.7 years! The pool of money in this sport is so small that I can't imagine what folks hope to get from all these expensive birds.
> 
> Then again, I don't expect to win. It would be nice, but I won't die if I don't.


 I did make a honest mistake, I meant to say six figures, I certainly did not invest seven figures. The figures are all relative anyway, I am sure Mike Ganus has spent millions over his career. If you look at any of my recent pictures, you will see that I most likely spend more money on groceries then most folks as well. 

The pool of money which is won in golf, compared to the millions of players is also very small, but that does not stop people from spending all kinds of money on country club memberships, clubs, lessons and green fees. Ask your typical race horse owner, and the ones I talk to claim it is also a money losing hobby for the most part. 

There are all kinds of things that people like to spend money on. I think children are one of the biggest waste of money, if you look at it from the stand point of return on investment. So why do people spend al kinds of money to have kids, if they have almost a zero chance of getting back even a fraction of what they will spend on them ? Well...it is my contention, that for many people, they get a lot of enjoyment out of their children and for some folks it is their pigeons.


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## Jaysen

Mr Smith, you hit on exactly what I was hoping to hear. Let me give you a perspective from a "new guy".

I like this sport. Just like the golf amateurs I know I will never be a pro. I am content with that for now. But what I am running into is that there are no "amateur leagues". My chances of winning are virtually zero unless I get super lucky. And based on the examples set by folks such as you not only will I likely never be super lucky, I won't have the time to increase my odds to get super lucky unless I win the lotto. Twice. 

So here I am, looking at a sport that I and my family have fallen in love with, wondering if it has a future? For me yes. But for my associates? I doubt it. The cost of entry is too high. Refitting existing structures, making everything ourselves, have all but 2 of our birds donated, and buying grain in bulk, a contentious hobbiest has but $8K in to the sport in under 12 months. And I still haven't paid for shipping, purchased training baskets, bought an ETS (we are going manual because we like handling our birds), or even started paying for fuel to train with. I exclude the trip to Blackpool as that is not normal. 

Up here that is a family membership to a country club where the only work is "swinging the club". The politics of club/combines can be completely ignored. And if you really don't like a country club just drive to the next one. You don't have that in our sport of choice. 

Before I get to my final point let me say that I admire the work and effort that all the "pros" have put into their programs. Folks like Ace, you, HFL, and the numerous others here who are very successful in the sport, show that you can win. Maybe once the wallet leaches, I mean the kids, have moved on to living their lives away from mom and dad, I will join you. 

My final point: If we want to see new blood like mine brought into the sport there may need to be a shift in the way things are thought of and/or done. 90% of the change needs to be at the club level. Right now the "cost of entry" is just too high for the new amateur.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Jaysen said:


> Mr Smith, you hit on exactly what I was hoping to hear. Let me give you a perspective from a "new guy".
> 
> I like this sport. Just like the golf amateurs I know I will never be a pro. I am content with that for now. But what I am running into is that there are no "amateur leagues". My chances of winning are virtually zero unless I get super lucky. And based on the examples set by folks such as you not only will I likely never be super lucky, I won't have the time to increase my odds to get super lucky unless I win the lotto. Twice.
> 
> So here I am, looking at a sport that I and my family have fallen in love with, wondering if it has a future? For me yes. But for my associates? I doubt it. The cost of entry is too high. Refitting existing structures, making everything ourselves, have all but 2 of our birds donated, and buying grain in bulk, a contentious hobbiest has but $8K in to the sport in under 12 months. And I still haven't paid for shipping, purchased training baskets, bought an ETS (we are going manual because we like handling our birds), or even started paying for fuel to train with. I exclude the trip to Blackpool as that is not normal.
> 
> Up here that is a family membership to a country club where the only work is "swinging the club". The politics of club/combines can be completely ignored. And if you really don't like a country club just drive to the next one. You don't have that in our sport of choice.
> 
> Before I get to my final point let me say that I admire the work and effort that all the "pros" have put into their programs. Folks like Ace, you, HFL, and the numerous others here who are very successful in the sport, show that you can win. Maybe once the wallet leaches, I mean the kids, have moved on to living their lives away from mom and dad, I will join you.
> 
> My final point: *If we want to see new blood like mine brought into the sport there may need to be a shift in the way things are thought of and/or done. 90% of the change needs to be at the club level. Right now the "cost of entry" is just too high for the new amateur*.



You may be correct, what suggestions do you have and what changes should be made? 

Some of the expense, say lumber to build a loft, a local pigeon club has no control over. Nor, does a club really have any control over the cost of fuel, which affects the price of everything, from feed, to training, to getting the birds to the race station. 

I think I can say pretty confidently, that owning a few racing pigeons can be a lot less expensive then owning a dog. And there are millions of dog owners in the United States. The ever increasing costs of dog food, vet bills, etc. does not seem to have affected how many folks decide to keep a dog. 

Now, in terms of racing, if one lacks the funds for racing, then don't race in organized competition and don't enter your birds in one loft races. One can enjoy pigeons without racing. Typically, the real issue in my humble opinion, is not that organized racing costs to much, it's that some people simply earn too little money. It is my contention, at least in my club, that one can fly YB's for less then $10 a week. That would include all the costs associated with YB flying. If the $10 figure is "too much" then what amount would you be willing to pay ? $8 a week...$7 a week ? If those amounts are "too much", then perhaps a hobby is simply not possible with the income that is available.

Our club came up with the idea of a 100 mile club. Where clocks would either not be necessary, or we would provide them. The total expense to fly was less then a $100 a year, and that was for national dues and to buy some tanks of gas to haul them in a pick up truck. What happened was, everyone decided they would rather come up with the money and ship birds with the combine and purchase pigeon clocks. Our one Jr. member went and got himself a job delivering newspspers and even saved up enough to buy himself a $300 Life Membership with our National organization. So, bottom line is, when push came to shove, what our members have told us, be they young or old, professional or working class, they wanted organized competiton, and the fees and expenses were very reasonable and competitive to other hobbies. 

I don't know how you managed to spend $8000.00 so far, you must have high class taste. As far as having a chance of winning. You could spend $100,000.00 and most likely you would still not win in our club. You would have to be just like everyone else, and pay your dues in terms of learning the art of pigeon keeping. As far as the future of the sport, all I know is it will still be around, long after I am gone. Our club is growing about as fast as we can handle the new members. But, I am open to suggestions as to what you think should be changed at the local club level. If your local club does not agree with you, then do what I did, and just go out and get four other guys and start your own club. If your ideals our sucessful then you will soon have more new members they you know what to do with. 

Oh...gee...got a bit long winded and off topic.


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## hilltop

You dont have to spend 5,or 7...figures to be a winner ! If u dont expect to win,why fly the races..every one has their way of breeding their birds, In my personal opinion, many think the word 'pure', does Not belong in our pigeons today ! so I would have No Desire to spend 6or7 figures to fly ....mongrels...or ...mutts... we must have a starting point...I dont care who disagrees,,,I can spot [as many can ] a strain or family of birds of yesteryear....at least 5 or 6 different just by looking.... SO to me this is not MAGIC !.... IT is the tremendous ability that the oldtimers had that marked THEIR BIRDS to this day, I would like to say THANK YOU !!...make no mistake ! overseas they go into a loss of brain power,,if the word 'inbreeding 'is used....its a no...no...over there,,,,there is no doubt we have to put a little "new blood"..in our birds...BUT there IS.. a knowhow ! and which to introduce,,a new cock or a new hen...and when it should be added...the old strainmakers in those days....KNEW !...There is also the very important.....HOW MUCH !!!! so read between the lines,,use what is beneficial....DO YOUR OWN THING.....AND LEARN FROM IT !!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hilltop said:


> ...... *!!...make no mistake ! overseas they go into a loss of brain power,,if the word 'inbreeding 'is used....its a no...no...over there,,,,*......


 How can you make such a generalized statement that no fancier outside of the United States uses inbreeding ?  Certainly is not the case in regards to the Meuleman strain. I am quite sure there are birds of this strain which have a distant relative or two that show up on both sides of the pedigree. Of course the topic of inbreeding is for another thread such as :
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/steven-van-breemen-on-in-breeding-45439.html?highlight=inbreeding Concerning the overseas fancier Steven Van Breemen and his writings on the subject.


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## rpalmer

Jaysen said:


> Mr Smith, you hit on exactly what I was hoping to hear. Let me give you a perspective from a "new guy".
> 
> I like this sport. Just like the golf amateurs I know I will never be a pro. I am content with that for now. But what I am running into is that there are no "amateur leagues". My chances of winning are virtually zero unless I get super lucky. And based on the examples set by folks such as you not only will I likely never be super lucky, I won't have the time to increase my odds to get super lucky unless I win the lotto. Twice.
> 
> So here I am, looking at a sport that I and my family have fallen in love with, wondering if it has a future? For me yes. But for my associates? I doubt it. The cost of entry is too high. Refitting existing structures, making everything ourselves, have all but 2 of our birds donated, and buying grain in bulk, a contentious hobbiest has but $8K in to the sport in under 12 months. And I still haven't paid for shipping, purchased training baskets, bought an ETS (we are going manual because we like handling our birds), or even started paying for fuel to train with. I exclude the trip to Blackpool as that is not normal.
> 
> Up here that is a family membership to a country club where the only work is "swinging the club". The politics of club/combines can be completely ignored. And if you really don't like a country club just drive to the next one. You don't have that in our sport of choice.
> 
> Before I get to my final point let me say that I admire the work and effort that all the "pros" have put into their programs. Folks like Ace, you, HFL, and the numerous others here who are very successful in the sport, show that you can win. Maybe once the wallet leaches, I mean the kids, have moved on to living their lives away from mom and dad, I will join you.
> 
> My final point: If we want to see new blood like mine brought into the sport there may need to be a shift in the way things are thought of and/or done. 90% of the change needs to be at the club level. Right now the "cost of entry" is just too high for the new amateur.


He is a link for you. It is not a short read but I truly hope you can find some inspiration in it. Best wished for you future. http://www.longdistanceracingpigeons.net/site/?cat=4&paged=3


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## hilltop

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> How can you make such a generalized statement that no fancier outside of the United States uses inbreeding ?  Certainly is not the case in regards to the Meuleman strain. I am quite sure there are birds of this strain which have a distant relative or two that show up on both sides of the pedigree. Of course the topic of inbreeding is for another thread such as :
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/steven-van-breemen-on-in-breeding-45439.html?highlight=inbreeding Concerning the overseas fancier Steven Van Breemen and his writings on the subject.


MR Smith, Just because u find the same breeding on top and bottom means nothing to me, It shouldnt mean anything to u anyway as your belief IS what it IS,I dont know why u even answered,?..as there is no such a family as Meuleman ...TO..YOU !!...If I believe what u write!.I stated quite clearly........IN...MY...OPINION...! and its my 60 yrs of pigeons,,,and my fathers ,,putting over100 yrs in my background..In your opinion these strains are gone....lost...NO...MORE...!,,In my opinion these kinda writings have a tendacy to take the HEART out of a new guy thats intrested in the game,,,IF u read my thread I said some were inbreeders,,,but in general even today many will not inbreed...and they are great pigeons....do they last...?..or fly by nights...!...there are 40,000 genes to sort through if u want to change your loft...ALL these writings are MY OPINION..!


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## Jaysen

Mr Smith,

The $$ were to "build it right and big enough the first time". The biggest expense was lumber, followed by nesting materials for all boxes (24 with all nest bowls, sufficient felts, manufactured fronts, etc). I agree that the costs are not controllable. 

What have I done/suggested: The biggest thing that I am doing is opening my loft up to folks that want to "try this pigeon thing". So far I have 4 kids interested and at least 2 adults. I am supplying all the space, materials (birds, feed, perch), the "unique tools" like clocks, and access to knowledge. What I am asking folks to cover is their own membership in the AU, and if they are an adult I am asking them to do some training tosses. While the "racing" could easily be reduced to one clock everyone wants to use their own. 

At the club level I have tried to get folks to consider group training, consolidated purchases of consumables, other standard "cost consolidators". I am the new guy and it seems that no one wants to commit until I have a bit more history with the club.

I am also getting ready to approach the club with the idea of letting me host multiple members in my loft (see above). Basically a "sub club" where I can bring all the birds and clocks. I don't want to start my own club, but it may be the only "correct" thing to do (I am really trying to focus on kids who may not have much parental support making travel to shipping and knockoff tough). 

The one thing that I think needs to be considered, and this may be at the AU level, is stratification of racing into classes. We have JR and "everyone else". Add levels based on years experience (under 5, under 10, under 20 years racing), loft racing team size (under 30, under 150, over 150 birds in a season), and a class based on historical performance. Having a new guy like me competing against a guy like you on a national/regional level just isn't sane. Heck, we don't do it with the birds do we (ex OB vs YB)? 

These are the big three for me right now. There are a few others that I haven't thought through enough to articulate or present as a reasonable proposal. Even with these three, the last one is beyond my ability to really "do anything" about. That will have to go through some formal process. 

Our shipping fess are expected to be $600 total for the year for a 18 race season (OB and YB). $33 per week. A pittance compared to some fees. Enough to keep some folks from racing this year though. Keep in mind that is just shipping. I don't have the other numbers at hand to add those in.


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## First To Hatch

Jaysen that sounds cheap for 18 races. Right now I have 26 YB, 3 more on Thursday will make it 29 YB, lets say I have like 20 when the first race comes. (8 races) 2.25 per bird. That would be 45$ a week to ship 20 birds, 360$ for the whole YB season!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Jaysen said:


> Mr Smith,
> 
> The $$ were to "build it right and big enough the first time". The biggest expense was lumber, followed by nesting materials for all boxes (24 with all nest bowls, sufficient felts, manufactured fronts, etc). I agree that the costs are not controllable.
> 
> What have I done/suggested: The biggest thing that I am doing is opening my loft up to folks that want to "try this pigeon thing". So far I have 4 kids interested and at least 2 adults. I am supplying all the space, materials (birds, feed, perch), the "unique tools" like clocks, and access to knowledge. What I am asking folks to cover is their own membership in the AU, and if they are an adult I am asking them to do some training tosses. While the "racing" could easily be reduced to one clock everyone wants to use their own.
> 
> At the club level I have tried to get folks to consider group training, consolidated purchases of consumables, other standard "cost consolidators". I am the new guy and it seems that no one wants to commit until I have a bit more history with the club.
> 
> I am also getting ready to approach the club with the idea of letting me host multiple members in my loft (see above). Basically a "sub club" where I can bring all the birds and clocks. I don't want to start my own club, but it may be the only "correct" thing to do (I am really trying to focus on kids who may not have much parental support making travel to shipping and knockoff tough).
> 
> The one thing that I think needs to be considered, and this may be at the AU level, is stratification of racing into classes. We have JR and "everyone else". Add levels based on years experience (under 5, under 10, under 20 years racing), loft racing team size (under 30, under 150, over 150 birds in a season), and a class based on historical performance. Having a new guy like me competing against a guy like you on a national/regional level just isn't sane. Heck, we don't do it with the birds do we (ex OB vs YB)?
> 
> These are the big three for me right now. There are a few others that I haven't thought through enough to articulate or present as a reasonable proposal. Even with these three, the last one is beyond my ability to really "do anything" about. That will have to go through some formal process.
> 
> Our shipping fess are expected to be $600 total for the year for a 18 race season (OB and YB). $33 per week. A pittance compared to some fees. Enough to keep some folks from racing this year though. Keep in mind that is just shipping. I don't have the other numbers at hand to add those in.


 Perhaps you should start a thread on your club promotion ideas as this is far afield from the thread topic of "Meuleman Strain".


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## Jaysen

Good point. I am terrible at thread hijacking. If others are interested I will start a new thread.


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## Matt Bell

Jaysen said:


> Good point. I am terrible at thread hijacking. If others are interested I will start a new thread.


I wouldn't worry about it, Mr. Smith asked you a direct question which you answered...maybe he should be the one to start a new thread if he deems necessary, he is one of the moderators.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Jaysen said:


> Good point. I am terrible at thread hijacking. If others are interested I will start a new thread.


 Just go ahead and start one, if people are interested then they will post. And yes, sometimes I am as guilty as everyone else when it comes to going off topic. I had actually written quite a lengthy reply and then it hit me we were off the topic of this thread. You have some valid points, lets continue on another thread.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hilltop said:


> MR Smith, Just because u find the same breeding on top and bottom means nothing to me, It shouldnt mean anything to u anyway as your belief IS what it IS,I dont know why u even answered,?..as there is no such a family as Meuleman ...TO..YOU !!...If I believe what u write!.I stated quite clearly........IN...MY...OPINION...! and its my 60 yrs of pigeons,,,and my fathers ,,putting over100 yrs in my background..In your opinion these strains are gone....lost...NO...MORE...!,,In my opinion these kinda writings have a tendacy to take the HEART out of a new guy thats intrested in the game,,,IF u read my thread I said some were inbreeders,,,but in general even today many will not inbreed...and they are great pigeons....do they last...?..or fly by nights...!...there are 40,000 genes to sort through if u want to change your loft...ALL these writings are MY OPINION..!


Everything I write, or anyone else for that matter, I think is sharing from his or her experience, understanding, perspective and opinion. I guess I just don't understand what it is you are trying to say. I thought you said *" overseas they go into a loss of brain power,,if the word 'inbreeding 'is used....its a no...no...over there,,,," *and so I stated if a relative shows up on both sides of a pedigree, then there was by definition inbreeding. Didn't mean to imply whether that fact was good, bad or indifferent. 

I don't take responsibility for taking the heart out of anything or anybody. As far as I am concerned, the facts should speak for themselves. Then one can draw his or her own opinion from the facts. You will have to share with me, where I ever said that there are no Meuleman based pigeons ? If I had ever said that there is no such thing as birds descended from Meuleman pigeons that would be pretty silly I would think.

Far as I know, Mr. Meuleman is still alive and breeding pigeons with family members as his partners. As such there are of course then *Meuleman* pigeons.


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## re lee

Why cannt we all just wake up. FIRST racing homers are the breed of pigeon people are trying to raise. THEN a name gets attched to the breed That name is for birds that come from a certion loft. MOST often a persons last name. BUT still those birds are racing homers. developed long ago. And crossed to the certion persons need. NOW when they leave that loft and are paired different and selected different HOW can they remain that line. SURE they have that base BUT that is all that remains. THOSE fetures that certion birds have many were set back in the 1800 early 1900s And passed down. NOW unless a person crosses the diferent breed lines to redevelop a whole new line of racing pigeons Then most all racing pigeons today are in 1 way or the other they decend from a near line of birds Meaning that most are related some way in the past. WHAT you do with your birds puts that certion mark on those birds And for a short term on the birds others buy from you. THE idea is to develop birds that respond to your methods. Cultivating them is for each person. NO we can not go out and buy from 50 different people and expect to have great birds. Muleman racing pigeons would be birds bred by him And one would be surprised to find he may have bought the parent birds 1 year before you bought a young bird off that pair. IT takes years often more then 10 years to build any family of birds AND then only the person was the builder. SO agin why still say after some lines were bred over a 100 years ago still say this bird is that and that bird is this because for 1 IT CAN NEVER BE but only in your mind It is a product of yours and others breeding BUT what is selected in that breeding makes for the better bird So then a pedigree becomes kind of worth something. Because the birds selected became better and as good. The others well they left the loft. IS a name important without quality Each pigeon person should want to build there own birds with what thay have and know they need. JUST like some people who breed for color if you do not think outside the box like the people beofe you did then you become color blind As quality improvement is sometimes bring in a differrent color and rebuild that wanted color only better. BUT I guess we could still be walking and never have a car because man walked first. To go forward requires making changes that take you forward. Agin look back on ALL the old breeders they crossed the strain lines to make there own.


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