# Let's talk about a cross!



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

In regards to genetics, we know that a cock can pass his sex genes to his daughters and sons, but the hen can only pass her sex genes to her son, but not her daughter. So in looking for the "kick" in the cross, where should it come from? The sire of the hen? Or should the "kick" come from grand sire of the hen?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well, thats a heck of a question. Speaking genetically I think its more sound to try to focus on the hen, simply because there is slightly less genetic variance considering only the 1 sex gene. Also it seems much harder to find a hen compared to a breeding cock. Just my 2 cents...not sure I really answered the question though.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Are you saying that genetically speaking, the offspring do not inherit as many genes from the hen as they do from the cock? Or are you only referring to "sex" genes, and not the genes that may have something to do with homing ability, lung size or wing structure?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well, they inherit less chromosomes from the hen if the baby is a hen. If the baby is a cock they they inherit equal chromosomes. Now, as for genes and the number inherited from each parent I'm not sure anyone can answer that. I don't think the pigeon genome has been mapped, and if it has I don't think that a genetic study has been done to identify which gene codes for what, and which chromosome it is actually on. Would need to know all of that information before we could accurately answer which supplies the most genes. Then you would have to take into account dominant and recessive etc etc. It could be possible that a bird is 75% its mother and only 25% its father genetically due to recombination and dominance/recessive etc etc. Genetics is tricky stuff...I think I have even confused myself now, lol.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

I think the mitochondria is supplied by the hen, so in theory the hen could be more important.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Mitochondria does come from the female, though it doesn't have anything to do with anything really as far as genetic makeup of the bird or person or animal is concerned. Mitochondria are like 'the powerplants' if you will in a cell. They do possess their own dna, but it doesn't do anything as the mitochondria is no longer operating and living as its own single celled organism.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I have read that the genes for colors are sex linked, is there information on which all other sets are linked to sex ? I don't think they have yet discovered which gene makes up for the "homing instinct", I found an archived news link from Gaurdian which says that scientists have found that the homing instinct of pigeon is by smell, really, I don't get that point

Here is the thread http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/pigeons-home-by-smell-46117.html#post492284


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Kal-El said:


> In regards to genetics, we know that a cock can pass his sex genes to his daughters and sons, but the hen can only pass her sex genes to her son, but not her daughter. So in looking for the "kick" in the cross, where should it come from? The sire of the hen? Or should the "kick" come from grand sire of the hen?


I'm going to move your thread to the apporpriate forum.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Do we have any idea if the genes that make a good racer, are only on the X chromosome?  If not, then the hen and cock make equally as much difference.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> Well, they inherit less chromosomes from the hen if the baby is a hen. If the baby is a cock they they inherit equal chromosomes. Now, as for genes and the number inherited from each parent I'm not sure anyone can answer that. I don't think the pigeon genome has been mapped, and if it has I don't think that a genetic study has been done to identify which gene codes for what, and which chromosome it is actually on. Would need to know all of that information before we could accurately answer which supplies the most genes. Then you would have to take into account dominant and recessive etc etc. It could be possible that a bird is 75% its mother and only 25% its father genetically due to recombination and dominance/recessive etc etc. Genetics is tricky stuff...I think I have even confused myself now, lol.


The birds still get half their chromosomes from mom and half from dad. The hens will have one pair that do not match, but they still have 40 total pairs like any other pigeon. It's how the genes/alleles within the chromosomes work out, that determines whether they're more like one parent or the other. Not all things are carried on the sex chromosomes.


I managed to find this group of articles that looks to be the same topic - how genes determine good birds.
http://www.pigeon.co.za/WRRPA/Artikels.htm
Looks like a lot of reading. I haven't went through it much yet, but I will.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

If you take a superb racing cock and mate him to a Meuleman hen, mate him back to his daughter ( the daughter is 1/4 Meuleman) and subsequent grand-daughter (1/8 Meuleman), would the Mueleman provide the "kick"?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I guess I'm kind of confused. Are you referring to something like hybrid vigor?
Also, was the hen only half meuleman then?


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Genetics in one thing. Performance is another. You can have a genetic copy of a parent by close inbreeding/linebreeding, but, the performance aspect is still a selection of prefered traits individually. As far as performance is concerned, both parents contribute equally to their offsprings. The "kick" can be anything, even a third cross. 

If you want to get into genetics to see who passes what to their offsprings, it is known who passes what. But, the real question is what performance traits are attached to those genes that is not known, and may not be able to singled out, in my opinion. 

I've bred other performance animals for some time and there are many variations and directions one can take to get at the same result. 

From years of breeding performance animals, there are certain traits that do pass easier than others.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> I have read that the genes for colors are sex linked, is there information on which all other sets are linked to sex ? I don't think they have yet discovered which gene makes up for the "homing instinct", I found an archived news link from Gaurdian which says that scientists have found that the homing instinct of pigeon is by smell, really, I don't get that point
> 
> Here is the thread http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/pigeons-home-by-smell-46117.html#post492284


Hi Sreesh,
I don't think any racing pigeon fancier will believe that a bird will find its way by smell. Other experiments have been conducted that prove the contrary. The magnetic field of the earth would be a more plausible theory.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/701/

Sex linkage in racing pigeons only exists when you mate a blue or black cock with a red hen. You will then get red cocks and any colour hen, though generally blue or black if the cock does not carry the gene for red.

As for the remaining questions about genetics, there are many theories and each fancier has his own method. It is generally accepted that both the cock and the hen should have a gene pool of very high quality. Both must have consistent winners in their parents' generation or/and their own. Their parents or their parents' brothers and sisters must be winners or themselves and/or their brothers and sisters must be multiple winners. I personnaly follow this principle whether it's an outcross or an inbred mating I'm doing. Still it is extremely rare to find consistent breeders. Therefore, we try and fix the required qualities by inbreeding. My method involves a hen as the outcross and she must be a proven breeder. Probably, the hen has inherited the qualities from her father, can pass them on to her own sons but cannot pass certain qualities to her daughters though I believe that she can pass on her breeding qualities. Her quality as a breeder is verified by her pedigree (two generations) but mostly the quality of her offspring. 
Also in my system, if one of the pair is unraced, the other must be a multiple winner.
Another reliable method if you know how to handle it, is to cross two birds from different lofts, but both have to be from a winning strain, meaning they both have this gene pool we are after. I also use the eye among other qualities to select the mates. I know, most of you don't believe in it and that's OK, but I have done my homework and I believe it works for me.
In my loft, I have found it very difficult over a period of 15 years to maintain lasting qualities in numbers by introducing a cock as the outcross. So my birds are mainly linebred back to a common ancestor who is a male.
But don't take my word for it, check out on the internet the breeding methods of all the long lasting famous names you can find: Desmet-Matthys, Van Bruaene, Van Bremen and others.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Like Xuooo says, it is not easy to fix the desirable traits like performance, character, intelligence and the ability to fly a certain distance. This is complicated by dominant and recessive traits in the genes. In order to fix a recessive but desirable trait, it is necessary that both cock and hen possess this character/trait otherwise the offspring may not show it, though they can carry the recessive gene for it.
And then, there are freaks, birds where none of the parents show the traits visible in this offspring. In this case, the bird is showing traits from one of his ancestors, this often happens when you outcross. That is also when you can get a legendary racer, but in most cases, that is when you're on your way down the result sheet...
To answer the first question in this thread, it would seem that the tail grand mother (the mother's mother) is supposed to be the most important bird in the pedigree.


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