# Spread - Continued.... (rollers)



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Sometime ago some of you helped me with some genetic/ factor questions. One of the discussions was around a Mealy Cock and a Blue Checker Pied Hen and the spread young that I bred from them (blacks and lavender). I am breeding again and now have young from what appeared to be a mealy cock breed from this pair (shields are a bit darker than a mealy but shows the bars) I was wondering if this young cock would also produce spread young. Well, yes he does. He is paired with a smokey blue bar hen and the first round are a black and a black pied.

Thought some of you may be interested.

Thanks,

John 

This is the original cock.









This is the mealy (looking) young cock.









These are the first round young - Blacks


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

This is a picture of the Young Cock and the Smokey Blue Bar Hen - parents of the new Blacks....


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

That is interesting! Is the paternity certain (e.g. no other cocks in the loft with the spread factor that could have been with the hen?)? I wonder if the bird coudl be a mosaic of sorts......his reproductive parts having the gene for spread but the rest of his visible body no. I am curious what others will say. Nice looking birds btw!


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks for your reply. Last year there was some question/ doubt about this, but I now have two mealy looking cocks (father and son) that throw the spread factor. The parentage is guaranteed. My stock cocks and hens are separated all year until they are paired up in separate breeding cages. The previous post was more about how did this happen and whether the blued checker pied hen had something to do with this. Now I have confirmed that these birds breed young like you would expect from a spead ash. The father (in the first picture) with the blue bar with white flights has a young one in the nest also, it looks like it is going to be a lavender with lots of white. It's a little younger than the blacks so I have to wait a bit longer to know for sure. I'll add a picture of it to this thread in a week or so. These pairs are ready to lay their second rounds so there will be more young in the near future.

John


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I cannot believe it, but these cocks must then be an ash-red spread (or lavender if you prefer), with such a weak expression of the spread that it looks like a normal ash-red bar. I is not unusual or some of the pattern to 'leak through' in the phenotype of spread ash-reds, but I didn't know it could be so extreme.

I have not bred any ash-red spreads myself, but I assume that the expression in these birds is more the exception than the norm. I would pair one of the black youngsters to an unrelated ash-red, to see whether the spread ash-red combo will once again give this result.

On a similar note, there is a phenotype that is called 'mimic black' - a bird which is not spread but still so dark it looks solid black except when the tail is really closely inspected in bright light. I have heard and read about this phenotype, and even managed to breed it in my archangel homer project (Blackwing Archangels are 'mimic black'). I still don't exactly know or understand the exact gene or gene combination required to get this phenotype. It does seem that some form of dirty as well as T-pattern is required, so it probably isn't the case here.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I cannot believe it, but these cocks must then be an ash-red spread (or lavender if you prefer), with such a weak expression of the spread that it looks like a normal ash-red bar. I is not unusual or some of the pattern to 'leak through' in the phenotype of spread ash-reds, but I didn't know it could be so extreme.
> 
> I have not bred any ash-red spreads myself, but I assume that the expression in these birds is more the exception than the norm. I would pair one of the black youngsters to an unrelated ash-red, to see whether the spread ash-red combo will once again give this result.
> 
> On a similar note, there is a phenotype that is called 'mimic black' - a bird which is not spread but still so dark it looks solid black except when the tail is really closely inspected in bright light. I have heard and read about this phenotype, and even managed to breed it in my archangel homer project (Blackwing Archangels are 'mimic black'). I still don't exactly know or understand the exact gene or gene combination required to get this phenotype. It does seem that some form of dirty as well as T-pattern is required, so it probably isn't the case here.


Hey Guys, I was convinced from word go that it was ash red spread, Like said in the previous thread I have ash red rollers in my loft carrying roller bronze, when spread is added the bronzing of the bars seems to stay as is rather than being distorted, I am guessing this is the case here too. The bronze seems to help the bars stay intact I suppose.

Rudolph, The pair last year produced what were clearly lavendars aswell as blacks that IMO were not Mimic blacks. ( based on the pictures )

I must admit I do not have a case quite this extreme in my loft but one bird is very close hence my certainty from the beginning that this was as red spread - Certainty is maybe not the best word as there is no possible way I could have been certain based on pics but if I had to put money on it I would have said - ash red spread and probably put a pretty high bid on it too.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Hey Guys, I was convinced from word go that it was ash red spread, Like said in the previous post I have ash red rollers in my loft carrying roller bronze, when spread is added the bronzing of the bars seems to stay as is rather than being distorted, I am guessing this is the case here too. The bronze seems to help the bars stay intact I suppose.


I was very sceptical last time. But one of the qualities of a good experiment is repeatability, and that obviously is the case here, and in two different lofts no less.



NZ Pigeon said:


> Rudolph, The pair last year produced what were clearly lavendars aswell as blacks that IMO were not Mimic blacks. ( based on the pictures ).


 I agree that these birds are not mimic black, just thought is good to keep in mind due to the similarity (supposedly non-spread birds producing spread ones)



NZ Pigeon said:


> I must admit I do not have a case quite this extreme in my loft but one bird is very close hence my certainty from the beginning that this was as red spread - Certainty is maybe not the best word as there is no possible way I could have been certain based on pics but if I had to put money on it I would have said - ash red spread and probably put a pretty high bid on it too.


Genetics is in fact gambling in the sense that it is game of large numbers and statistics and the house - in this case mother nature - always wins. Like gambling, there is no certainty in genetics either, only chance.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is a picture of a young black cock from last year.










This picture is typical of the couple of lavender hens. The black bird and the lavenders are from the original cock bird. I suppose I could pair up the black cock picture above and see what I get. I don't have a need to breed with him at the moment, at the end of the season I might put him with a blue bar hen.










Thanks John


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

Looking At The Black Are The Feathers On The Wing Laced Look Ing At The Pic Looks Like It T Pattern Maybe


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I just checked him in the loft. He's pretty black, very tight even feathering, lots of shine. That's not a very nice picture, just one that was on the computer and easy to post. The tail feathers that aren't white are jet black.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John, Is the black the same bird that you showed us the tail bar of last year? If so its a spread bird, And the lavendar in the pic is clearly spread

loftkeeper- Spread blues do sometimes appear like a T pattern on the shield, Lacing though??? It looks like quite a smooth spread to me, I have seen much more coarse blue spreads.
One can only guess if a bird is spread or not based on the wing shield, The tail generally gives a better idea but is still guessing to a point until breeding tests proove otherwise, As Rudolph has pointed out there is nothing like repeating the tests to ensure certainty is gained.

Rudolph - I agree it was good of you to point out how black some t patterns can look and I like your analogy at the end there.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> This is a picture of the Young Cock and the Smokey Blue Bar Hen - parents of the new Blacks....


Is the hen smokey? If so the albescent strip usually found on the outer edge of the outer taill feathers will not be there, I had a feeling we established that the bird was not smoky on the previous thread too.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Hello Evan,

The previous pictures would be this black/ spread bird, it is the only one I have (other than the two in the nest now).

This hen does have the white edges of the outer tail feathers. I was calling it smokey because of the colour of wing shields. I didn't call it dirty, because my young tumblers with the dirty factor have black skin, beaks, feet and legs.

While I do pair my rollers on their flying, I am always trying to breed nice markings/ colours/ patterns for showing. I paired the birds with this dirty look with the birds with the spread factor because I don't what too many of these birds (they are very good rollers though). My thinking being that the spread will cover the dirty colour and it won't matter anymore as these spread young will breed more spread birds. I don't have a nice blue bar hen or cock from the same families yet. I don't want to interbreed the families. I have to wait until I breed one from my other pairings. I'll post a picture of a nice blue bar cock I have, once I get a hen I'll be right.

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Getting off the topic now, but I want all my blue bars like this one I breed last year.......


























This is a nice cock bird, I couldn't show him, he has one bull eye. I didn't fly him, I put him aside for breeding.

John


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Still doesn't surprise me. These are rollers.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Hello Evan,
> 
> The previous pictures would be this black/ spread bird, it is the only one I have (other than the two in the nest now).
> 
> ...


Its not smoky - It will be dirty but as there are a few types of dirty or atleast a few expressions so it could be different to the one established in your tumblers.

Dirty is good under black so those pairings will work well



johnbt said:


> Getting off the topic now, but I want all my blue bars like this one I breed last year.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a blue bar that looks like that, Just finished trap training so hopefully it will take to the sky today


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Spot the difference, Ok so slightly different but pretty similar, I am sure John that our rollers are from similar lines, The ash red spreads with distinct bars and the pied/baldhead markings in the birds are too similar. Also NZ and OZ are not to different really, Kinda like Ford and Holden.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan,

How about this! I am on a roller forum and have made some friends in Arizona. They have the mason family (as mine are supposted to be). I was looking at their pictures and spotted this one. I suspected that like my mealy looking cock bird this one was going to be the same. I contacted the owner and asked if by chance this birds throws spread young. He said he calls it his mealy, and yes it breeds spread young ones.

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John, Thats Interesting, I am going to try figure out the genetics behind it, I suspect roller bronze is the key but I am going to cross with my racers to see if I can move the bronze across, then I will see if my typical ash red spread racers start showing distinct bars. Will take a few years but should be fun.

I have two recessive red pieds in the nest from the same pair as the two above, Will send you some pics when they are a bit older.


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