# 3 New, 1 Old



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi folks, 

Took some new pictures the other day of my pigeons, 45 in total but only a few came out well or were worth saving & sharing. The 3 pictures of my youngsters are new but the one of their parents is old, from 2003. It happens to be my favourite picture of the two of them I've never been able to catch them in such a natural and loving pose together since.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

and the old....


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brad,

Ricky is quite a looker and those gorgious eyes...WOW 

Lucy is also quite stunning, they both seem to favor the mom in their coloring, but Lucy has more the face of her dad (the black one, is that right?)

I like the new avatar, too!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Treesa

Yep, Eggbert is the all black male and you're right they get their grizzle from their mom and they both have it. Funny how they inherited certain traits from each parent though In some ways, Ricky is the exact opposite of his mom in colouring. She white with dark grizzling and he's black with white grizzling

Henny has actually become more grizzled over the years as well. In that picture and years ago, she was only grizzled on her head, neck and chest. Now she's developing patches of dark feathers on her back and shoulders.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, thanks. I love seeing pictures of your family. They are big and beautiful, all of them.

Maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Beatiful Birds*

Brad! LOVE that coloring!


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Very nice birds, it's nice to see how they change over time. I always loved kings.


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## dekebrent (Jun 17, 2005)

Brad -- I'll echo the sentiments ... great colors on the birds! Nice pictures, thanks for sharing.


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi like your pictures, nice birds.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you...Maggie, Shi, Derrick, Jimmy, and Rena


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Beautiful pictures, as usual, Brad. 

Being able to see their faces, close up, it appears to me that both youngsters take after their father, with a stern expression around the eyes. Very majestic looking. Thanks for sharing.

Linda


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

jimmyrenex said:


> Very nice birds, it's nice to see how they change over time. I always loved kings.


Just to clarify, Brad's birds are big, beautiful, giant runts. Kings are generally a bit smaller and station with their tail up, rather than down like the runts.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

They are just gorgeous, Brad! I never noticed the intensity of their eyes before .. quite amazing! When you get "the look", I suspect you pay attention <LOL>!

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Brad, they really are quite beautiful, and I like the way you have the ramp up to the mirror for their viewing pleasure  .

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you...Linda, Terry, Nancy and Terri Thanks for the clarification for Jimmy as well Terri


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## jimmyrenex (Mar 27, 2005)

Sorry, my mistake, yes they are Runts... I don't know why I typed "kings"  ... I had Runts and Kings many years ago and from what I remember, the Runts were much more flashy and showy, and the Kings were the more utility white type. I forgot how pretty they were. I think they are next on my wish list..... Hey Brad, you're only about an hour away from me... any extra pretty pairs available ?  
Jimmy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

jimmyrenex said:


> you're only about an hour away from me... any extra pretty pairs available ?
> Jimmy



Hi Jimmy, 

Sorry, I don't breed my birds they are just pets. I have an older pair and their two hand reared offspring and that is all the runts I have. I wish I could have more but my older pair aren't capable of raising their own young and I don't really have anymore space. They need LOTS of room these birds


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi Brad,
Beautiful pics of your birds...I think Runts are a magnificent breed...I can only imagine how much presence these pigeons have when in the same room as you.

It's always a pleasure to see pics of your birds 

Oh, BTW Did you end up finding out what was happening with the wing thing you had happening.

Regards
Alaska


...Oh...woohooo I just made my 200th post...I'm a senior bird now...lol


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska and thank you for the compliments

No, unfortunately I haven't figured out what is going on yet with Lucy's wing. She's seems perfectly fine though and I forgot about trying to video tape it. She doesn't do it all that often anyway and it will be hard to capture on video.

Congratulations on your 200th post, you senior bird you


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...Henny has actually become more grizzled over the years...


I wonder if grizzling is genetically similar to the color change in Lipizzaner horses, which start out dark and lighten up as they age. If Henny is getting darker, will Ricky get lighter? Do all grizzles continue to change as they age?


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

They are indeed adorable. Lucy is quite the looker!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you Garye for the compliments on my birds

Terri, I'm really not sure about how that works with the grizzles. I am surprised that Henny is getting darker over the years though. I'll try to post a before and after picture of her soon to show the difference.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Brad,
Somehow I missed your thread the first go round.  
Your birds are absolutely stunning.  
I love the feathering. They truly catch the eye.

In the old photo Lucy's look is to die for.  

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you Cindy

I'm starting to wonder now, reading more about mosiacs from the link that Alaska posted if Lucy is a mosaic or not. She's a grizzle but it's mostly red and whites but she has a blue bar tail


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Thank you Cindy
> 
> I'm starting to wonder now, reading more about mosiacs from the link that Alaska posted if Lucy is a mosiac or not. She's a grizzle but it's mostly red and whites but she has a blue bar tail


Well, one thing's for certain, they are beautiful pijjies.  

When I would receive a call about a rescued pigeon, I never asked what they looked like. It didn't matter to me. The only thing I knew about Mikko was that he was white & I did know he shouldn't have been wandering the streets. I was stunned when I saw this 'headdressed' pigeon. It was the same with Pij. I had no idea pigeons came in such varieties *and* personalities. 

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cindy, thanks again

Yeah, I don't care either, I find all pigeons to be beautiful in all their own unique ways When I decided to get back into pigeons 5 years ago now, and when I saw the runts at the farmers market...I was shell shocked! I couldn't get over how large and beautiful they were, many are grizzles and I've always loved grizzled pigeons. I knew that runts didn't fly very well either so they seemed to be the perfect breed for me, requiring much less special needs than some other breeds. Little did I know there would be more challenges to keeping runts in other areas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri and Everyone, 

Here is a series of pictures showing Henny's colour pattern and how it's changed over the years. The first 2 on top are from 2003 and the bottom 2 were just taken the other day.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Wow !!!*

WHAT A GORGEOUS COLOR CHANGE! She sure is a STUNNER!!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

What a beautiful bird and such a sweet face! Brad, I can see why you picked her out! What's really neat is the definite feminine character to her expression, especially compared to Eggbert's stronger look.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, it's almost like seeing two different birds. She is just stunning. We have two ferals, Bert and Cookie, both females, that have similar coloring. When they came to us they were fledglings and I took their pictures but forgot to mark which was which. Their coloring, too, has darkened now to the point that I couldn't tell you which bird I took pictures of. And, some of the color patterns have changed too. I noticed on Henny's that she now has a dark patch of feathers on her wing whereas before it was white (unless I am seeing a different wing in the before and after pictures.

She sure is pretty. Maggie


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

*Color Change*



TerriB said:


> I wonder if grizzling is genetically similar to the color change in Lipizzaner horses, which start out dark and lighten up as they age. If Henny is getting darker, will Ricky get lighter? Do all grizzles continue to change as they age?


I have never had a grizzle get lighter, Magnani's (Almond Factor) get darker every time they moult. Theres a very distinct darkening from year to year. I have heard that the sun can fade a birds color. When a baby pigeon goes through their first moult they usually come out with a difference in their color. Thats interesting isn't it? My baby Archangels have gold in their white wings, then they moult and the wing is completly white, like it suppose to be.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Genetics in pigeons is so intriguing, and there's so much to know!!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Genetics in pigeons is so intriguing, and there's so much to know!!


That is probably why Cornell University in their Project Pigeon Watch wanted to know why feral pigeons had so many different morphs (colors). They also wanted to know which colors were attracted to each other. Quite fascinating. The project ended up involving people all over the world and is a great project for school kids to do...


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Oooh...I'm getting excited...people are talking about genetics 
Pigeon Genetics has to be one of my favourite topics.....right up there with talking generally about pigeons and watching my pigeons...caring for my pigeons...come to think of it I think I may need to go to Pigeons Anonymous 
Brad, I've been studying the pics you posted in this thread and I think your birds may have the gene Almond in them, this would explain some of what is happening..let me ramble on for a bit... 

From what I can see in the pics this is what I believe your birds may be carrying:

Eggbert: Blue/Black Pigment (Wildtype), Spread, Silky*
Henny: Blue/Black Pigment (Wildtype), Hom Grizzle, Het Almond

Ricky: Blue/Black Pigment(Wildtype), Spread, Het Grizzle, Silky*
Lucy: Blue/Black Pigment (Wildtype), Het Grizzle, Het Almond, Silky*

Now it is also likely that Henny and Lucy also have Spread, but I cannot be sure due to Henny's Hom Grizzle, and Lucys Het Almond.

Ok...now I will explain a bit more indepth about the above...

Grizzle:
Henny is carrying Homozygous Grizzle (which means she has two genes of Grizzle on her 'Grizzle Locus' in her DNA strand)...basically she has a double dose of Grizzle which makes her almost completely white as her grizzle is reducing the pigment in most of her feathers.
Both Lucy and Ricky have recieved this grizzle from Henny, but Eggbert hasn't got grizzle, so they only received one dose from Henny...which makes them Heterozygous Grizzle (they only have one dose of it)...which basically means that they still have grizzle...but it only shows a little bit on them (the grizzle marks around their heads and necks).

Spread:
The spread gene is what makes Eggbert entirely black....he is like my Cecil..in that he is a Blue/Black (Wildtype) pigmented bird with spread...that makes them both black. Ricky also carries the spread gene, making him all black...however he has Hennys grizzle that goes over the top, just like my Cecil has his head badging that does the same.

Silky:
As you can see, I have placed an * beside this gene on Eggbert, Ricky and Lucy's list. The reason for this is that I am not certain that the genetic factor is indeed Silky (as we previously discussed)....It may just be a gene for Grease Feathers or the like...but Eggbert definately has this...and both Ricky and Lucy also carry it. Henny does not have this 'Greasey...Silky' Gene...whatever it may be.

And now for the exciting part (for me atleast  ):

Almond:
Lucy definately carrys Almond or one of it's alleles 
(There are eight known alleles (alternatives) for Almond, which are wild type (+) - (Chalky) - (Frosty) - Sandy (StSa) - Faded (StF)- Qualmond (StQ)- Hickory (StH)- Almond (St))
The red/brown, white and black pattern on her wings is a prime example of a heterozygous almond pigeon.
Lucy gets this almond gene factor also from her mum Henny (notice when Henny was younger she had a few reddish coloured feathers on her chest, which have since then been moulted out but none the less reveal where Lucy gets it from.
The thing about almond is that on a blue/black (wildtype) pigment bird, you get that red flecking and multiple colour pattern on the bird...but also...the black on the bird increases radically with age...so this explains why Henny (who is also het almond under her hom grizzle) is getting more black feathers as she is getting older 

Interesting side note: The white feathers on Lucys head and neck come from grizzle, however the white feathers on her body and wings come from almond...same end colour, different genetic factors to make it!

Second interesting side note: I cannot be certain from the picture, but Ricky looks to have a reddish feather on the right of his cere (wattle...ummm...you know...lol), not sure if this is just the photo, but it may open the possibility of him also carrying almond.

Well, I hope I haven't bored anyone of confused anyone with my genetic ramblings...and I hope I have shed some light on what I consider to be the underlying genetics that bring out the fantastic phenotypes (the amazing good looks) of Brads beautiful Runts!

Regards
Alaska


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Wow!!! To say you know your colors is an understatement! Great detective work, Alaska!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*I say Alaska*

If you are not a Geneticist or working professionally in Genetics, you should be!  

Bet Cornell University would be VERY interested in you!  

No wonder you have such beautiful birds! You know how to pick 'em!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you Shi, Terri and Maggie again for the comments on my pigeons. Maggie, yes, you are correct that you observed that Henny now has more darker feathers on her wing. That was the same side of her and I did this so everyone could see the changes


Alaska, WOW, after reading your post on your genetic observations and comments on my birds, steam started coming out of my ears!  LOL. Pigeon genetic concepts and how colours are created really overloads my brain

I have a very basic understanding of colours/morphs and how they are created and I do mean BASIC. I think you are right though that Henny and Eggbert both carry the "wild type" gene in them. I think all pigeons do, don't they? You are also right that Henny is losing the red she once did have in her. There used to be a few sporadic feathers on her that were really rust coloured. Now, they are turning very dark. One odd thing about Henny that never shows up in the pictures is that she has one tail feather that is a "blue bar" tail feather. The thing with this feather is however that it's completely faded and washed out. You can barely notice it on her because it's so light. But it's got the black band at the end just like the "wild type"

When Ricky was much younger, Mary and I thought he had some red feathers on his head, I don't see them anymore at all though. Lucy has gotten darker over time herself as well. I think you're right that she will continue to darken further over time.

Thanks for the effort and detail you went into describing all of this to me but I have to be honest and say that most of it went CLEAR OVER MY HEAD! LOL


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Terri and Shi for your comments, I do try 
Brad....don't worry about the steam coming out of your ears....that's just me stepping up a gear and rambling on....lol
I got to looking at your pics today and I have noted your interest in events such as the darkening of the feathers, etc and instead of writing a book on your birds genetics...which I could...they are fantastic.....I thought I'd do my best to give you a short burst of info on what I thought was in your birds genetic makeup.
I did try and summarise and make it readable...but your birds have so much in them that I figured it best just to let you know it all in one short hit.
Genetics gets easier once you look into it a little...and I find pictures to demonstrate what the words are saying helps aswell.
Perhaps when I get a chance I will setup a site that explains pigeon genetics and what options there are and how it all works. Really depends on how much time I get to sit and write it up.
Till then, why not print out a copy and if you get a chance you can read up on the different genes I have listed and you can give me your opinion on if you agree this is your birds genetic makeup...I'm sure you would enjoy it 

PS. Feel free to ask if you want me to expand on anything for you...I am no expert, but I have a fair knowledge in Pigeon Genetics and am only too happy to share my knowledge if I can help in any way. There were many topics I briefly touched on above that individually I could write pages on 

Regards
Alaska


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey Alaska, you just keep on "rambling on". I have found this to be fascinating stuff. Even tho we deal mainly with the ferals, when I look at one of our birds, i.e. Mr. Humphries (my current avatar) I wonder about his genes. I really enjoyed your summary of Brad's babies.

Maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Alaska,

Wow, what a thorough and concise geneology you did on Brads' gorgious pets!

Could you "read" Skye?


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi Maggie and Treesa,
Perhaps if you are interested I can start a thread offering for people to post a photo/s of their bird and I will do my best to give a quick description of what I believe makes up their appearance genetically.
I don't want to steal Brads Thread on his beautiful birds by talking it too far off topic.
You know one of the things that really got me loving pigeons was when I started to learn a little bit about pigeon genetics and then started to notice all of the different genes present in the feral pigeons I would see while going around my daily activities....even the 'feral' birds can be abslutely amazing in their genetic makeup.
It is not uncommon for me to be driving or walking around somewhere in deep conversation with someone to suddenly stop and proclaim...WOW...look at that feral pigeon...it is a sooty Tbar...I haven't seen that in the wild before!!....only to get weird looks and chuckles from the people around me...lol

Btw...to answer your question previous Brad... Wildtype is the standard that all other mutations are compared to...and looks very much like Treesa's Avatar (Is that Skye, Treesa?). When I am talking about a Wildtype Pigment, it means the original Wild Colour of Pigeon...which is that Blue/Black Colour Pigment. I believe all of your Runts are 'WildType' in their base pigment colour, as opposed to Ash-Red or Brown. This is why Henny would have that one 'BlueBar' Tail Feather...and it looks washed out because of the Homozygous Grizzle she has (which makes almost all of her white and reduces the pigment in most of her feathers, making that feather look washed out).

To give you a visual...imagine that all of your Runts are exactly the Same Colour as Treesa's Avatar...the reason why they have all the other looks is because they have put on other 'clothes' on top of this colour. The Grizzle, Spread, and Almond are all like us putting on a jumper...we still have the same 'Base Pigment Skin Colour' but we look different according to if we put on a Black Jumper or a Red, White and Black one with White marks spattered across it.

Regards
Alaska


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Alaska,

Yes, that is Skye. That makes sense about putting other clothes on their basic pigment color or colors.

Then Skye is probably wearing his *basic colors*and doesn't really have much more. LOL


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

From your Avatar Skye does look to be a BlueBar (Wildtype) and a magnificent one at that, Skye is a perfect example of what the original Rock Doves (ancestors of our Pigeons) would have looked like.
Having said that perhaps a larger pic would show some mutations that are not standard to wildtype (Not every mutation makes a huge change in the appearance of the bird), also Skye being male could be carrying recessive genes that you would not see unless he had babies, much like when my Cecil produced Rec Red babies and Dilute babies, he carries both of these genes without showing them.
PS. Don't forget even if Skye is just wearing his basic colours, he represents the original design, that all pigeons came from...and is very special.
Regards
Alaska


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*When I first read*

about Cornell's Project Pigeon Watch, they mentioned 7 different morphs to use when participating in their project. They did mention that pigeon fanciers had LOTS more. 

Squeakers, like Skye is a Blue Bar, which they said was the "basic/original" pigeon morph. To me, Blue Bars represented the basic whole pigeon family; that is, until I learned there were soooo many different breeds of pigeons!

All the different morph combinations continue to fascinate me too and within a flock, there are usually those to "ooh and ahh" over. However, even among Blue Bars, the "gray" varies as well as their irridescent neck colors...

In fact, the Pied morph is what attracted me to Peter Pied Piper, the Frank Lloyd Wright of pigeon builders at ASU. A magnificent bird!

Many thanks Alaska...very interesting!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

alaska said:


> ...Perhaps if you are interested I can start a thread offering for people to post a photo/s of their bird and I will do my best to give a quick description of what I believe makes up their appearance genetically...
> Alaska


Yes! (Did you know that messages have to be at least 10 characters? My initial message wasn't long enough.  )


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

alaska said:


> From your Avatar Skye does look to be a BlueBar (Wildtype) and a magnificent one at that, Skye is a perfect example of what the original Rock Doves (ancestors of our Pigeons) would have looked like.
> Having said that perhaps a larger pic would show some mutations that are not standard to wildtype (Not every mutation makes a huge change in the appearance of the bird), also Skye being male could be carrying recessive genes that you would not see unless he had babies, much like when my Cecil produced Rec Red babies and Dilute babies, he carries both of these genes without showing them.
> PS. Don't forget even if Skye is just wearing his basic colours, he represents the original design, that all pigeons came from...and is very special.
> Regards
> Alaska



Alaska,

I think Skye is pretty much basic, basic, and I really appreciate your thoughts on his heritage. His father, Hamilton, is a check, and his mother, Cooper, is a blue bar like him, only slightly darker. His sister is an even darker blue bar.

Many many thanks Alaska for your very interesting thoughts on geniology....

and Brad, I'm sorry to take away from your original topic at hand. 

Thank you both for indulging me on the geneology of my Skye.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

No worries, Treesa, lol

Threads will often branch off from the original topic but I'm just as interested as you were with all of this genetic stuff. Just that I don't really understand it very much

I'm not breeding my runties anymore, and as much as I'd love to see what colours they could produce in successive offspring, I just can't right now.


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