# Suspect Pigeon poisoning



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Recently(04/2002)I had the pleasure of rescuing a 'baby feral' pigeon that had fallen out of a palm tree in our back yard. I was sailing on a wing & a prayer as I had no idea what I was doing except I knew I had to save this darling yet quite 'homely' baby.
Things were going wonderfully. We were having flying lessons, fun at the fountain and he followed me around the yard 'helping'.
He eventually ventured out with other locals, however returning each morning & evening for meals. I might add, we live on a lake and have ducks & pigeons frequenting our yard. We still had our talks as he sat on my hand and we played at the fountain. On 08/31/02 he wasn't present for breakfast. I was quite worried. That evening I went out on our patio to find my feathered friend in desperate need of help. He was very listless, feathers ruffled a bit, back humped. I scooped him up, put him in a towel & placed him on my lap. I stroked his head and talked to him as I had done so many times before. He began to fall asleep then all of a sudden reared up (I am thinking he is going to stand)spread his wings, looked at me then slowly laid down tucking his head under his chest and stopped breathing. He was only 5 mo. old. I thought perhaps he had a heart attack. I must say I almost had one myself. Last evening 09/01/02 I found yet another adult 'feral' pigeon on my patio with the exact same symptoms. I have him isolated in a cage for protection and as I write he is still alive. For how long I have no idea. I am now thinking this doesn't appear to be a isolated case. Perhaps poisoning is taking place. If anyone has any suggestions I would greatly appreciate them. This is absolutely breaking my heart & I don't know what to do. Thanks, Cindy


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Cindy,
I am so sorry you are experiencing this. It's hard to say what caused this. Sure, it could be poisoning but it may not be intentional. There could also be some illness making its rounds in the area. The only way to really know is to freeze the carcass of a dead bird and bring it to a vet to do a necropsy.
I wish we knew more about what this is so we could try to help you save the bird.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thank you for your response Fred. In two days I have absorbed a wealth of information about pigeons. I just thought they were grey birds that were used to relay messages. The short, but rewarding experience I had with Whitefeather has prompted me to become further 'Pigeon educated'. I only wish our relationship could have lasted much longer. Whitefeather will truly be missed. This site is absolutely wonderful. Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Cindy,

Welcome to pigeons.com! Although your coming is due to such sad circumstances, we are glad you have joined us. I am truly sorry for the loss of your bird as well as the second pigeon.

I see that you are in Tempe AZ .. you might want to contact East Valley Wildlife in Chandler and tell them what is happening and see if they have any advice for you or if they can help by having a necropsy done to determine what is causing these birds to die. Another source of assistance would be the Urban Wildlife Society in Phoenix. 

Again, welcome and sorry for the loss of the birds.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Actually Terry, if I hadn't been having so much fun with Whitefeather I probably would have been touring this site sooner. 
Being completely devistated and realizing I couldn't just leave a dead bird around, I wrapped Whitefeather in a towel, placed him in a tin, sealed the tin and buried it in the backyard where we had spent so much quanlity time together. I guess this eliminates the necropsy. If the pigeon that is now ill expires, I will freeze the corpse and have it checked. Interestingly, this pigeon has the same symptoms as Whitefeather did, however appears a bit more alert. Perhaps because it is an adult and Whitefeather was only 5 mo. old. I don't know. I will also contact the East Valley Wildlife in Chandler. I can't thank you enough for the info. Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

UPDATE: I just checked on the pigeon, he is now at the point where Whitefeather was when I found him, lying down and breathing heavy. I don't believe he is going to make it. I am just sick, he came to me for help and & can't do anything except wait. I can only hope he is not suffering. Again I want to thank all of you for your help and will keep you posted. Cindy


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Hi Cindy,

I'm not sure wether WNV is a factor, but for necropsy, my rehab center can do them within 48 hours if I refrigerate them ( sorry folks) Freezing destroys tissue that may lead to an answer.... best is to get them in within 12 hours, but cooling instead of freezing is best if you are looking for anwers in a necropsy. Tough, but true..

Hugs to you for doing your best for these birds, and extra hugs for caring. There are not enough people in the world willing to care for sick & injured wildlife, so you have my applause, and my sympathy

Barb


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Cindy,

I am so sorry the second bird is going downhill now too. Hopefully East Valley can give you some advice. Like Barb, I am sorry for the gruesome commentary, but if this second bird dies, please try to keep it cool and get it in for a necropsy/testing tomorrow. If we know what is killing them, we may be able to save some if others turn up ill (and I suspect they will).

I do understand your need to put your beloved WhiteFeather to rest in the best way possible. Know that s/he knew where to go for safety, love, and comfort when the end was near.

Terry Whatley



[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited September 02, 2002).]


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

B.Crowe,
I stand corrected and thank you for pointing out that freezing causes tissue damage. I forgot that and appreciate your reminding me.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

The second Pigeon has died. I have taken your advice re. the cooling. I will call East Valley Wildlife in the AM. Barb mentioned if WNV was a factor? Please explain. Perhaps I am just dumbfounded by the second death but I don't know what she means.
I notified my husband (who is out of state)of the second death and told him I was going to go outside and look around for any clues. I walked past the fountain that the Pigeons (and all the birds) love to drink from and I noticed some of the paint had come off. I got a sick feeling in my stomach, could this be causing the problem? I will really have a hard time dealing with this if it is the cause of the deaths. I immediately emptied the fountain and put it into the garage. It was quite sad, some of the Pigeons just stood on the grass looking so bewildered. They are losing some of the pals and now their drinking fountain. Anyway just wanted to let you all know the latest. Cindy


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I emailed Cindy to let her know about refrigerating instead of freezing.


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Dear Whitefeather,	
So sorry to hear about this situation you are in. Yes, it does sound like poison.
Hope you can get some feedback on the autopsy so some investigation can be done.
Regards,
Carl


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Cindy,

So sorry about the second pigeon. I suppose it could be the peeling/chipped paint, but I really don't think so. I would guess that there is some type of disease causing the pigeon deaths.

Given the very, very hot weather here, I can't even imagine how hot it must be there. Can you put out a bowl of water for the birds since their fountain has "dried up"?

When Barb mentioned WNV, she was referring to the West Nile Virus which has reached epidemic proportions in certain parts of the country. Thousands of birds have died from WNV and also some people. 

East Valley Wildlife should be able to tell you if WNV is present in your area and if there is some particular disease that is taking a toll on pigeons at the present time.

Please keep us posted as to what you are able to find out.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Terry, 
I really didn't think it was the paint from the fountain either, but every thought is going through my mind. 
I have been with both of them at the time of their death and they appear to have a couple small seizures shortly before they expire. 
Yes indeed, there is a bowl of water for them. 2-3 times a day I take ice cubes & put it in their water because the water gets so warm. Our daytime temp. is about 106-107. I am going out tomorrow and check on a couple regular bird baths. There are enough feathered friends visiting here that I really need at least two.
Once again I am so grateful for the support everyone has given to me. I honestly didn't think I had any tears left, today's incident proved me wrong. Thanks again for your concern and have a wonderful evening. Will let you know what tomorrow brings. Cindy


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Whitefeather. This does not sound like an isolated case. You may likely find more and if it is poisoning the best way to help them is to flush out the system with water. Using a 1ml syringe you can push this past the hole at the back of the tongue which leads to the lungs and safely press the plunger to push the water into the crop. When I say flush out the system, that is exactly what I mean. So you are talking maybe 20mls of water every half an hour. Watch the droppings. Once they start to come out clear fluid you can stop because the system has then been flushed. You can often save poisoned victims this way.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning to all...
I just wanted to report as of the writing of this note there are no ill Pigeons on my patio. However, it seems that the number of Pigeons coming for breakfast this morning were considerably reduced. I don't know if this is a bad sign or maybe just me. 
I will be contacting the East Valley Wildlife shortly re: the prior deaths.
Have a great day and I will check in later. WhiteFeather's pal, Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Terry,
I contacted East Valley WIldlife, they take no calls. Have to leave a message. I did that. I am trying to find other avenues as I can't keep this poor bird on ice forever and no one here has any suggestions. Looked in the phone book for vet. to no avail. I don't know what to do now. Any suggestions you might have please let me know. Thanks. Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Cindy,

Hopefully you have had a return call from East Valley by now. If not, then I am kind of at a loss for any other suggestions. I am pretty sure the vets they use would be in the phone book for your area.

If you go to their website http://www.evwildlife.org there are some links to other rehab groups in the area that might be able to point you to a vet that would do the necropsy.

Sorry not to be able to help more.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Terry,
Quick note. I never received a call from EVW. I realize the people there are volunteers. I did try the web site. Seemed to be the same info. that was on the phone recording. Thought someone would have called though. The vets here don't advertise wildlife bird services, however, I did try to call some, to no avail. 
I called ASU, they have no depart. for such services.
I was feeling a bit down this afternoon, looked outside and noticed a good number of Pigeons waiting for their afternoon snack. They were quite curious about my 'make shift' fountain. They weren't sure if they should drink from it or run from it. But it's water and it's cold.
So far NO MORE SICK PIGEONS. Sure hope that continues.
Again, thanks to all the members who supported and helped me through my tragedies.
Maybe soon, I will have some fun stories to share. Cindy


[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 03, 2002).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hello and welcome. I'm sorry for the loss of your little charges.









This sounds very much like poisoning.

There are poison protocols that you can be versed in. They require some fairly inexpensive supplies and a little training. But you need all that prior to an event.

We have one member here, Teri (anybody hear from her lately?) that pulled a poisoned pigeon through, with the help of activated charcoal and water (she ground up aquarium charcoal from Walmart). The bird was convulsing and everything. Like I said, it did pull through.

But Teri already had some bird savvy and some of the supplies needed, and immediate access to this network. That all makes a difference...

You will often encounter "attitude" from vets when trying to treat a pigeon. It stinks, but that's the way it is.

I recommend attempting "guile" in getting around that. Find a pet store that deals in expensive exotic birds and ask them who their vet is. Call the vet and tell him that you have a pet "dove" that has taken ill--can they look at him? What kind--I don't know, a little gray dove.

Be cool bringing the bird in, and be honest about letting the pet dove go out for daily flights (it's no damned worse than letting a cat out!) 

Just bring the bird in well concealed and well contained, as there are disease protocols and the vet is running a business, after all. Keep a low profile on visit number one.

Our vet now has three pigeon patients (two of them very lucrative, I might add) and I know we were the first because we took this initial approach getting around his counter staff.

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for your response Ray.
I agree with you on the poison theroy. 
I have medical experience, however not with birds. The more I can learn the better. 
I saw a couple Pigeons walking about the back yard very slowly this afternoon, however, when I began to approach them they did fly away. But for some reason I have had a sick feeling this evening that this isn't over. 
I understand completely about the 'attitude' and I am finding out it isn't just with the vets. In addition to being completely devistated by what is happening I am becoming annoyed at the general public regarding 'Pigeons'. 
It would be very interesting to take a public survey: How many people know that a Dove is a member of the Pigeon family?
The charcoal treatment makes sense regarding poisoning. I never thought about it with a small bird. Kudos to Teri. That's wonderful.
I can get the supplies, have immediate access the this network, however, a bit short on experience. But I would try. When I discovered Whitefeather and the adult Pigeon they were breathing very heavy and then their breathing became very labored so I don't know if there would even be enough time to get things rolling. We will see what tomorrow brings. 
Sure miss my little Whitefeather. Just can't believe he is gone. I Never knew they could be so much company. He always greeted me in one way or another. Sometimes flying right over my head. At least I have 5 months of wonderful memories. Thanks again. Cindy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Perhaps, for some, ignorance is bliss, and God knows I need to "hide" and tune out the world sometimes. But when I think of what I'd miss, well, I'm just not wired like that.
Even with the pain, I'm glad to know most of what I know. The world got a little bigger--and a little more wondrous--when I met Bernie!









ACTIVATED CHARCOAL:

You can get activated charcoal capsules at health food stores. The contents are emptied and administered in a slurry, with water, to fill the crop. Expertise with a feeding tube sure expedites this process over simply using a syringe.

Tube feeding is not syringe feeding, though a syringe is involved. In the tube feeding procedure a flexible tube is inserted into the pigeon's mouth and down the pigeon's right side, directly into the crop. For larger birds, we use a 12" tube an a 35-cc syringe. Up to 8" of the tube is inserted, depending on the bird's size. If the crop is empty, in a larger bird, the full 35-cc's can be dispensed at once--whether it's the charcoal slurry or food formula.

While that's it, in the "broad strokes", there's a lot more to it. Don't attempt it without more coaching, as mistakes here are generally fatal.

Other poison protocols involve reducing ambient light and noise, and providing a padded environment if the bird is convulsing.

--Ray

[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited September 04, 2002).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

You can be assurred, as much as I would want to help a bird in distress, I would never attempt a procedure I wasn't completely at ease with. Thanks for the info Ray. Cindy
Forgot something: I have seen some Pigeons laying on their side or so it appears. They are on our back lawn and look like they are on their side or leaning towards their side. Is this normal? 

[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 04, 2002).]


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Cindy,

Birds will lie on their side, slightly raising on wing when they are sunbathing.

If the birds were poisoned it could have been by eating something that had been treated with an insecticide. There are specific antidotes like Toxogonin. I am reading all this in a book, but can scan and e-mail you some pages if you need more info!

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I would appreciate any information you have to offer. Thanks Cynthia. Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Cindy

It's after midnight so I will have to do it tomorrow!

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello ALl,
Just wanted to give an update on my Pigeon problem. I was able to contact Nancy from EVW and she is willing to help me if the need arises. I do believe there is yet another sick Pigeon and I tried to catch it last evening, however it was able to muster enough energy to fly on the roof of the house. It may have flown elsewhere, I will keep my eyes open.
The remaining Pigeons I must say, have come to really enjoy my 'make shift' fountain. A couple of them were playing in the water and others were waiting their turn. Can't blame them it was 111 degrees here yesterday. Sure fun to watch them healthy & happy. Whitefeather's pal, Cindy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

I too love to watch them bathe!









Should any of these pigeons vomit "corn", that's a sure sign of AVITROL being used.

--Ray


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I almost said I was going to ask a stupid question, then I thought..... there are no stupid questions so here goes.
I have been reading some of the other stories and I am sure I have seen the word 'AVITROL' what exactly does it mean?
Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Ray, This might be of interest. When I was out feeding my feathered friends their snack this afternoon I just happened to look around and in the corner of our yard (an area where there is a bit of dirt) I saw a medium size pigeon vomiting. Quite honestly I have never seen a bird vomit. I started to walk over to where it was, it flew away, however I looked around and found a wet spot and what appeared to be whole seeds and corn appearing matter. Not bright yellow corn and perhaps it wasn't even corn. But the bird was in fact vomiting. It is interesting that I would see this and then you mention it. Do you think it could it be relevant to the deaths of the other two pigeons? Looking forward to your reply. Thanks, Cindy

OH MAN- Now I remember seeing the name. I have a medical site I use frequently and just looked up AVITROL. I sure hope this isn't what I think it might be. 

[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 05, 2002).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ohhhh Cindy,

The vomiting of the corn looking stuff is truly bad news .. almost a certainty that the pigeons are being poisoned and probably with avitrol.

I am so glad you got in touch with Nancy Eilertsen or she with you .. Nancy is a very busy person but you won't find anyone better when it comes to helping and rehabbing birds. 

Talk to Nancy, but my suggestions are to have Toxiban on hand (activated charcoal), atropine if you can, syringes and feeding tubes or feeding needles. See if Nancy will give you a crash course in tubing charcoal slurry to the birds and see if she will refer you to a vet that they use.

If you are able to get the Toxiban down and keep pumping fluids to any poisoned birds, you will most likely save their lives.

Bless you for sticking with this and please keep us posted.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I just went outside and was able to retrieve four seeds that the pigeon had vomited. I used precaution in gathering them. There is one red, and a couple light brown seeds and one that could be corn. As I mentioned they aren't bright yellow corn. There were more seeds that I originally saw but perhaps the breeze scattered them about. Worst case scenario, if this is AVITROL Could a neighbor possibly be distributing it in minute portions? Or would the birds have to be flying a distance to ingest it? I have been doing some research and I realize it doesn't take long to effect the bird. Any more info. would be greatly appreciated. I will email Nancy tonight. Thanks, Cindy


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

The birds could be getting it from any place, that is the difficult part, to find the source.
Carl


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