# Hawks Suck



## LittleJohn

Lost another bird to a coopers hawk today. They were doing great, rolling and looking good, and out of nowhere comes a coopers hawk and nails one of our birds...that's number 2 for the year....very sad day.


----------



## LUCKYT

LOL! From what i hear other people say, you are doing GOOD! 
I have lost two also. i miss my homer hen and my tipplers! i would add a couple or four birds that fly different, I.E. High fliers, or homers, tends to confuse them some what. As many people have said, vary your fly time, GET some bottle rockets!
I will be on lock down this summer, not because of hawks, just have new breeds to work with and have to build up some Numbers to breed with. 
I will miss the Challenge of keeping the HAWKS off the birds.
Do not let anyone tell you you just have to accept it. As George would say...
Think about it! Good luck... Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

yeah I hear ya, but whatta ya do...


----------



## LUCKYT

As i said work with your situation, watch the times you see the hawks, and release accordingly. But some flocks, once the one or two slow birds are gone, Tend to learn to avoid them. The worst thing you can do is Lock them up. They lose Wing power, and the ability to out fly the hawks.
This is your first year to Fly as far as i remember. Fly them as much as you can.Vary times, spook the Hawk when you can, BUT they must fly, and learn to avoid the hawks. Or they will end up as cage birds.... Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

yeah...I hear ya....and we aint havin that.


----------



## LUCKYT

Tsk, Tsk, Little John, learn to play the game. There are no secrets, just what works for you! Experiment, Learn about the Hawks. personally, i think it has taught me more about pigeons than if the hawks were not trying to eat them all the time. GET IN THE GAME! once you figure it out, AND you will, you will enjoy flying your birds more than ever. Your birds will Learn, as long as they are in condition to fly... Four days locked up means at least a 30% chance a Hawk can catch them... one week locked down, increases it to in my opinion, a 50% chance of the hawk winning.After the first season you will see certain pairs young seem to make it... JMHO, Dave


----------



## Charis

Little John...your Pigeons have little chance against the Coopers Hawk. They and the Peregrine Falcon are the fastest of the Bird's of Prey. Keep flying them and they will be picked off, one by one.


----------



## LUCKYT

WRONG, Charis.. it is has been going on for thousands of years, and there are still Pigeons, right? There is NOTHING sadder than a flight type pigeon locked in a Prison. you just need to train, and breed your birds to avoid them... IF Coopers were that GOOD, i would not have Ferals under every Bridge between here and work.... Dave


----------



## Charis

LUCKYT said:


> WRONG, Charis.. it is has been going on for thousands of years, and there are still Pigeons, right? There is NOTHING sadder than a flight type pigeon locked in a Prison. you just need to train, and breed your birds to avoid them... IF Coopers were that GOOD, i would not have Ferals under every Bridge between here and work.... Dave


Dave... I disagree with your approach and it's my opinion that you are incorrect especially if one values the individual lives of the birds in their care.
I won't debate it further.


----------



## LUCKYT

OKAY, so MILLIONS or more Pigeons under your way of doing it would never be born, or even have a chance at a short life? Trust me, if i was a Pigeon, i would take my chances on the wing than never be born at all.
I would rather be a chicken and be butchered than to have NEVER been born. AND there would be no Homers, or rollers, or High Flyers, if they could not be Flown. I love my birds, and I LOVE the hawks, i have found a Balance, HAVE YOU? Dave


----------



## Brummie

LUCKYT said:


> LOL! From what i hear other people say, you are doing GOOD!
> I have lost two also. i miss my homer hen and my tipplers! i would add a couple or four birds that fly different, I.E. High fliers, or homers, tends to confuse them some what. As many people have said, vary your fly time, GET some bottle rockets!
> I will be on lock down this summer, not because of hawks, just have new breeds to work with and have to build up some Numbers to breed with.
> I will miss the Challenge of keeping the HAWKS off the birds.
> Do not let anyone tell you you just have to accept it. As George would say...
> Think about it! Good luck... Dave


Love you my friend, but there is no way them birds will be not lofting around the house come September.You cannot do it. Print this...I will


----------



## RodSD

Rollers are easy prey for hawks. Sorry, that is given to me after hearing so many reports from roller fanciers here in California. They may even get your best rollers--those deep, frequent, fast rollers.

Falcon and pigeon co-evolved together. But I believe not with rollers such as Birmingham. I think nature has evolved oriental rollers, doneks, etc. for such falcon attacks and hawks.

I locked down after attack because I know the hawk will be back (I noticed that). I do lockdown about a week. I think locking them longer than that makes them easy prey especially when they get fat not doing anything.


----------



## Big T

The pigeon's breeding is why the hawk and pigeon exist. The pigeon keeps the numbers up by breeding many birds a year. The hawk controls the numbers by taking one or two a day or some other food source.

I have learned to fly late in the evening about thirty minutes before dark after mister cooper has hopefully fed. I use bottle rockets, an air horn, and an air rifle, The air rifle is pumped only enough to sting not kill. 

I release old birds first and watch them, not because they fly faster but because their eyes are better. If mister cooper is around they spot him before I can. If the old birds are relaxed them my young birds can fly. If the old birds spot or trap quickly without being called in then the cooper is around, the rifle, airhorn and bottle rockets come into play. I also use them if while out in the yard but not flying my birds but I see mister cooper. 

I have a pair of coopers nesting in a neighbor's yard 200 yards away. Before I started this plan I lost seven birds total. Since my plan only one old bird has gotten hurt. I have also notice the hawks avoid me. As I walk into the yard I sometimes see the hawks fly away. I used to observe them but lately they will not let me near them. My guess is they do not like me that much, but if it keeps them away from the birds I'm happy.

I never leave the birds while they are flying if I can.

I also keep my flying time to 30 minutes or less.


----------



## LittleJohn

We will continue to fly, but will adjust accordingly, it wasn't a planned flight, we had a couple of escapees while trying to get one to trap that had skyed out the day before.

It was approaching dark, and they were headed back to the loft when it hit. Hopefully the other two come back in today.


I realize that some will be lost to the hawks, as I have lost birds before, even when I didn't live in Pennsylvania I lost birds to hawks. It happens, it did suck to see my sons disappointment when it happened, but he took it pretty well actually.

I wont just raise a bunch of prisoners, no how no way, these birds are at their happiest when they have their freedom and can get out and do what they were born and raised to do. That's the part we enjoy watching, but man does it blow when the hawks come around....dangit.


----------



## LUCKYT

Hello Little John, Do not BUY the B.S. that Birmingham rollers can not out fly hawks. Heard that CRAP all my life! I have several in my loft now that are very hawk Smart, and they are pretty good at rolling.
I have offered the last of my Birminghams to a fellow member on this site.
Heck if he does not take them i will finish the third loft this weekend and keep them, just to prove the point.
I think a lot of roller Flyers, NOT YOU, do not seem to understand the hawks enough to even try... But Big T has it figured out, he has a game plan! Good for you Big T ! Heck my Birminghams have been hit so many times, yet they WANT to get out and fly. JMVHO! Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

If ya dont let em fly...will they ever really be happy? I mean come on...I am not into caging an animal for its entire life just so I can look at it. 

Hopefully the coopers will migrate real soon out of this area.


----------



## g0ldenb0y55

My hawk problems are pretty minimal but I agree with Dave about teaching your birds to be hawk aware. The more they encounter a hawk the better they get at evading it. This doesn't at all mean that the hawk will never snag one of my birds. It just seems like common sense IMO. Why do we trap train our birds? Because they're smart enough to learn how to enter the loft to eat and rest. If they're smart enough to learn how to trap I think they are smart enough learn how to evade hawks. There's just more of a risk with training them to evade hawks, Lol.....


----------



## LUCKYT

You will figure it out... On the "Bad news" side, around here and most places they are year round residents, SORRY... Dave


----------



## Guest

yeah the hawk migration is pretty much at its end now and most are nesting already so if your still seeing them get used to it they're there to stay .. all you can do is hope they take to eatting the wild birds in your area more then your birds


----------



## LittleJohn

I am afraid this one may be a resident as well.


----------



## LUCKYT

I am no Pro... But i am sure it is going to stay, as FINE and Helpful, Lakota has mentioned! Dave


----------



## Guest

LittleJohn said:


> I am afraid this one may be a resident as well.


just be glad yours doesnt hit you while you are feeding your birds like mine does ,scares the s**t out of you to say the least lol


----------



## Birdman79

While i was driving today i seen 3 pairs of coopers chasing each other.I am assuming that's how they show their courtship .One pair was a block away,and the other two were a couple of miles away from each other.


----------



## LUCKYT

Cool, they could be from different pairs, sparing over nesting territory.Or breeding behavior, as you said... never seen the local pair do it, but that does not mean they do not... i know a lot of Birds ofPrey do... Dave


----------



## Guest

Many domestic pigeon breeds are at a severe disadvantage for survival in the wild. This is because people breed them for big tails, large muffs, abnormal flying, and other ridiculous criteria humans place importance on. Letting these birds free fly is like putting a poodle in a room with a wolf. 

And as for this statement: 



LittleJohn said:


> If ya dont let em fly...will they ever really be happy? I mean come on...I am not into caging an animal for its entire life just so I can look at it.


Why do you have them if not to look at? You fly them so you can look at them. You put them in a kit box so they'll perform for you, right? What you do with them is for your benefit, not the birds. I'll bet if you could ask them, the birds would tell you they would rather live in safety and comfort with their families than have to fly for their lives, disadvantaged, for some humans enjoyment.


----------



## Guest

have you ever heard them make their breeding call , its like right out of jurassic park when they were being chased by velociraptors lol once you hear it you will never forget it


----------



## Big T

Hawks do not do it in the air like eagles. I watch two do it on a branch earlier this year before I found their nest. Beautiful birds and, like my birds, beautiful to watch fly. I just wish they had different eating habits.

The Hawks are good training for homing pigeons in that they learn this one danger to watch for. This is why I release my old birds first, they already know and make great lookouts. My young birds are not strong on the wing yet and the Hawk's nest being so close make them easy food. But as they get stronger they wil learn. 

Because, like little John, I do not like prisoners.


----------



## LUCKYT

Sahsa, these birds live to fly.. they would not be on this earth except for their flying skills to lock them up is a Sin against one of Gods finest Creatures...And most likely a sin in god's Eye's.
We are NOT Talking about fantails, Owls, Frigatas, Jacobins, Trumpeters, Parlor tumblers, Modenas, Frills, Kings, Runts, Lahores, Show rollers, Show Budapests, Ice pigeons,Mookees, Larks,Moorheads,Maltese, Magpies,Mondains,Swallows,Blondinettes, Nuns, Pouters... Ect., Ect. Dave


----------



## Guest

so Dave your saying that your going to let those buddahs that you just bought fly someday ?


----------



## LUCKYT

YES! the Cooper's breeding Call is something to Hear! Mini Taradayctales (spelling) LOL! I Love them! I like the best of the whole shebang! 
I like the garter sankes that eat the toads, but i love the toads, and i like the herons that try to eat my koi, and i like my Koi....Life is a balancing act of being OPEN minded. One individual in nature means nothing..... IT is the big picture that matters. Dave


----------



## Guest

LUCKYT said:


> YES! the Cooper's breeding Call is something to Hear! Mini Taradayctales (spelling) LOL! I Love them! I like the best of the whole shebang!
> I like the garter sankes that eat the toads, but i love the toads, and i like the herons that try to eat my koi, and i like my Koi....Life is a balancing act of being OPEN minded. One individual in nature means nothing..... IT is the big picture that matters. Dave


Dave your hitting the bottle again arent you lol cheers


----------



## LUCKYT

Hey, Lakota. Not the originals, at least not until i have a Large flock to work with, my goal is next Spring. same with the orientals. Waited way to long too risk them, PLUS to many people went out of their way to help me have them... Oh, that's right you know all about that! LOL! Thanks again! Dave


----------



## Guest

I agree you have to have them breeders to fall back on if to many get taken by those devils of the sky


----------



## LittleJohn

> Why do you have them if not to look at? You fly them so you can look at them. You put them in a kit box so they'll perform for you, right? What you do with them is for your benefit, not the birds. I'll bet if you could ask them, the birds would tell you they would rather live in safety and comfort with their families than have to fly for their lives, disadvantaged, for some humans enjoyment.


I refuse to argue the point of raising a performing bird just to look at. They are at their happiest when they are flying, and I intend to fly them. It is sad to see when one is taken in the sky, but we also have the thing they call the circle of life. 

My enjoyment of watching them is merely a side note of their lives. When they fly up high and roll and come back in and raise their young to do the same...well...that's what I feel brings them happiness.

Truth is.....no one makes it out of this thing we call life....alive.

My birds are spoiled rotten, and live very well. The chances they take when they fly are no different than the chances we take, trying to survive every day...that's reality.

Grasp it...


----------



## LUCKYT

Actually, only three Milwaukees best. It just rubs me the Wrong way when people get so high and mighty about something they do not understand, or even want too understand. Performance pigeons Fly, Ducks swim, dogs bark,
my teenage boys EAT, and a lot! LOL! Nature is not just in the wild, it is about time Mankind learned to interact with it and see it for what it is. GOD ! Iam sounding like a preacher!
Saving the life of a feral or stray is Honorable, but to put down people who bring MILLIONS of new lives into the world because one goes to meet the good lord early is silly. JMHO Dave


----------



## LUCKYT

Very well put LittleJohn!


----------



## Guest

LittleJohn said:


> I refuse to argue the point of raising a performing bird just to look at. They are at their happiest when they are flying, and I intend to fly them. It is sad to see when one is taken in the sky, but we also have the thing they call the circle of life.
> 
> My enjoyment of watching them is merely a side note of their lives. When they fly up high and roll and come back in and raise their young to do the same...well...that's what I feel brings them happiness.
> 
> Truth is.....no one makes it out of this thing we call life....alive.
> 
> My birds are spoiled rotten, and live very well. The chances they take when they fly are no different than the chances we take, trying to survive every day...that's reality.
> 
> Grasp it...



see this is where I have to dissagree with you .. do you really think all those guys killing birds of prey in cali that got arested thought that flying thier birds was a thing they had to except as a thing of natural elimination or taking the chance of losing their best birds .. they took the risk because they wanted to eliminate the risk of losing their awesome birds knowing that if hawks were around they wouldnt have a chance .. your birds lives will be immensely shortened taking that chance and its you who is putting their lives in that jeperdy ... birds fly yes but domestic pigeons are far from the natural order of the world of birds flying in the wild ..


----------



## LUCKYT

Lakota, my performing breeds are in better shape and condition, as to flying than most any wild bird is. HERE, we do not Agree... Dave


----------



## Guest

LUCKYT said:


> Lakota, my performing breeds are in better shape and condition, as to flying than most any wild bird is. HERE, we do not Agree... Dave


your right we dont agree domesticated birds in my opinion can never be as smart as a feral


----------



## LittleJohn

well sit and look at yours then...no problem by me..

but mine will be in the sky, and I pray each time they are turned loose that they will return. To raise them just for me to observe in a cage, would be doing them a disservice, and that my friend....is what would bother me.


----------



## Guest

Im not saying dont fly them but do know that everytime you do its you who is responsible for the ones that die each time you do .


----------



## LittleJohn

I dont fly competitions, at all, nor will I. And the guys in Cali who killed the BOP's made bad choices for selfish reasons. I understand how they feel, but the fact that I choose not to react in the same way, seperates the way I live and the choices I make, from the way that they do....so there is nothing there to really compare...is there?


----------



## LUCKYT

Gee, Lakota, maybe that is why since the Cooper's and Perigrenes, have repopulated the Chicago area we have less Ferals than i have seen in say, 45 years? It is all in training, if your strain/variety is not bred for flying, I.E. selected for that trait above all else, yes you will loose a lot. I do not. Dave


----------



## Guest

LittleJohn said:


> I dont fly competitions, at all, nor will I. And the guys in Cali who killed the BOP's made bad choices for selfish reasons. I understand how they feel, but the fact that I choose not to react in the same way, seperates the way I live and the choices I make, from the way that they do....so there is nothing there to really compare...is there?


the comparison is that the threats are real to the lives of your pigeons ,if there was a way of flying your birds around hawk loses they would have found them ..flying birds to the point of being hawk savey is limited as they will sooner or later be taken by a bird of prey as thats what they are built to do ... if you except the losses then thats fine but not all people are willing to watch their birds be eaten one by one as they fly them ..


----------



## RodSD

Those people that got arrested in California were really frustrated with their hawk problems that they violated the laws. That should tell you that Birmingham rollers get more of the brunt from hawks to push them over the edge. As I said before rollers are easier prey for hawks than homing pigeons (that is no CRAP!). Obviously this is not all or nothing. Some will survive. If you go to roller forum site you will hear that even their best rollers gets taken--that one that rolled the most gets taken. And because rollers seem to show their rolling skill around 1 year old that is a long way to wait. How frustrating that would be to train an animal, wait for almost a year to see the result and you end up taken?


----------



## LittleJohn

I know what you mean Rod, it is and can be very frustrating. I agree that there are methodologies (is that even a word?) that people use to keep the losses to a minimum, and I hope to be able to accomplish that. I hate more than anything to see a bird taken in the sky, but I also understand that it does, and will, and has since the begining of time, happen.

The person who develops a fool proof method....would probably be quite rich. Dont ya think?


----------



## LUCKYT

With the right management Birminghams are not much more at the Mercy of hawks than any other Flying breed. If you breed for color, and NOT Flying, than your Birds are in Jeopardy. Any one that takes heavy Losses is not training right, or is breeding for color, and not for flying ability. I find it so Funny that people try to fly COLOR breed Homers, or Color bred Rollers, and wonder why the hawks get so many. Dave


----------



## Guest

LUCKYT said:


> With the right management Birminghams are not much more at the Mercy of hawks than any other Flying breed. If you breed for color, and NOT Flying, than your Birds are in Jeopardy. Any one that takes heavy Losses is not training right, or is breeding for color, and not for flying ability. I find it so Funny that people try to fly COLOR breed Homers, or Color bred Rollers, and wonder why the hawks get so many. Dave


 you sure got that right , flying color bred birds is like flying chickens off the roof of your house , they wont make it that far .. the biggest problem with hawks and rollers is that rollers fly tighter circles around their homes then say homers do ,the fact that they dont range gives hawks way more opportunity to take them out .


----------



## LittleJohn

well just for the record the bird that got nailed was a fireball roller who had been flying for 6 months straight....damn sure not a color bird....and certainly performance bred. 

The birds that were flying when they got hit, were from 2500+ miles from where I live, and had only been in our kitbox for a COUPLE WEEKS.

Breed color if you want...thats cool...but we breed for the roll here at our house.


----------



## LUCKYT

Amen L.J! Dave


----------



## Guest

LittleJohn said:


> well just for the record the bird that got nailed was a fireball roller who had been flying for 6 months straight....damn sure not a color bird....and certainly performance bred.
> 
> The birds that were flying when they got hit, were from 2500+ miles from where I live, and had only been in our kitbox for a COUPLE WEEKS.
> 
> Breed color if you want...thats cool...but we breed for the roll here at our house.


 I wasnt saying that you flew color breds , just stating that they dont fly well in general no matter what breed they are lol


----------



## LUCKYT

Damn, Lakota...... You are so nice, that it burns my toast to even disagree with you! LOL! Dave.. But i do!  Dave P.S. can i use the graphic you made as my sig.pic.?


----------



## Guest

LUCKYT said:


> Damn, Lakota...... You are so nice, that it burns my toast to even disagree with you! LOL! Dave.. But i do!  Dave P.S. can i use the graphic you made as my sig.pic.?


 you can use it anyway you wants to  figure it wouldnt be much use to anyone else since its got your name in it lol


----------



## LUCKYT

Thank you sir! Dave


----------



## Birdman79

Birmingham rollers are easy prey for BOP.The folks who got caught with all the commotion with trapping BOP most certainly didn't breed for color but flew in competitions.If you wonna succeed in that you don't breed for color but performance.And yet they still had heavy looses due to hawks and falcons.There's no BOP proof pigeons,but some are easier picked than others.You just gotta use your head,and improvise.


----------



## Guest

what it all comes down to is that hawks are always going to suck and pigeons are always going to be eaten by them


----------



## Charis

LokotaLoft said:


> what it all comes down to is that hawks are always going to suck and pigeons are always going to be eaten by them


I couldn't have said it better myself!


----------



## Big T

Look guys, I know we want fast and smart birds, but wake up. Pigeons, regardless of breed, color are in Hawks food chain. So Hawks exist to remove the weak, old and sick of any flock it come across. Pigeons instinctively know this, but because man keeps the pigeon confined in one location and hawks are predators of opportunity, our lofts are food sources with one way in and one way out, We also breed at certain times a year with many young weak birds at one time for hawks to feed on. So man makes it easy for hawks at certain times of the year to feed on pigeons.

So, my point is nature gives us brains and opposable thumbs to use. Today when my neighborhood hawks came by to check on my birds as I was flying them, they got blasted with an air horn and my son’s paintball gun, (the gun fires lots and fast). Never hit the hawks but they freaked having balls fly at them. My young birds also trapped fasted than ever today. Yes, I locked down my loft for a week or two after the hawks killed three birds in one day. But my birds are meant to fly. So I did some reading, searched out my hawks and used what god gave me to protect my birds as best I can. This is what I came up with.

1. Bottle rockets to scare off when circling.
2 Air rifle to sting hawk sitting in tree, (pump only enough to hit cardboard but not punch through it).
3. Hold air horn when my birds are flying to startle hawk if on attack.
4. Son’s paint ball gun because it fires lots of balls in the air around hawks and scares them away.
5. Because I have, reached out and touched the hawks, my being out with the birds now deters the hawks from attacking. 

I will not kill my hawks like the dummies in Cal, because I like them and do not break the law, (jail just isn’t worth it). But, while pigeons are in the hawk’s food chain, I remind the hawk he is in my food chain.

Yes, I am going to lose a bird here and there, but I'm not going to make it an easy meal.


----------



## LUCKYT

Lakota, You just need to stop breeding for color, and breed for flying.
This is a discussion i have had for years... Homer fliers, Roller Fliers, High flier Fliers, and Tippler Fliers....... Proved them ALL wrong.
If you can NOT train and fly them to avoid hawks, maybe you should Lock YOURS up.
I will not do that. most people here have lost more this year than i have lost in the last 3 years. And i even have a handicap, the largest flock i have flown in the last 3 years is about twelve, the less numbers you fly, the more risk you take. If you want to except your losses fine.
When i was racing, i used the methods i have mentioned in many other posts,
My losses were almost NONE. 
One thing i can not except, is when someone says it can not be done.
It is training and Breeding. IF you breed for saddles, and other types of colors...... DO NOT Loft fly, because when flying is not top Priority you give up air capability. Do you know what the biggest Victims of the Cooper's around here are? WILD Mourning Doves, grackles, Robins and Starlings...... In THAT order. the way you are talking is as if you are not capable of having a loft of birds able to out fly, and out wit a Cooper's hawk.
Again, i remind you, Pigeons are WAY smarter than a Cooper's.
i respect you, but you are one of the majority that throw your hands in the air and say "Oh, Hawks are to good for my Birds"
If you are taking those kinds of losses you SHOULD lock them up.
Because you are a breeder NOT a Flyer. 
If the Pigeons Physical abilities, and training are right, the Cooper's are going to lose.
Pigeons brain?= 8 Cooper's brain? 3. Dave


----------



## donn davis

I have sixty young ones that are just learning to route around the loft. and I have the hawk problem also. infat I lost one just yesterday. I also sit out and watch them fly for about one hour in the morning and 1 hr in the evening when i get home from work. Usually if I'm home when they come thru I pop them with an air rifle when they perch.If Not I bang on a tin can or something loud to scare them away. Young are most vulnerable to the hawks. So I try to let the old birds fly with them at the same time,this way the youing can learn form the old on how to be aware ot the dangers out there. Have fun flying and enjoy your birds. Donn


----------



## LUCKYT

Welcome Donn, I think what most people miss is the Cooper's are not air catchers, YES they will grab them out of the air after spooking them of the LOFT, Ect, If you train them to go up.... and fly, and come DOWN and trap you should be able to deal with it. IF your birds sit on top of your loft...... Good luck, you are just feeding the hawks.. Dave


----------



## Guest

wow Dave you got all that outtah something I never even said  first of all I dont color breed ,secondly I fly over 70 birds here almost every day now and never lost a single bird in flight for over two years so far and although the hawks hit my flock they have yet to catch one since last years youngbirds were being trained to loft fly..most everything you said doesnt even apply to me and I have hawks here every day of the week all thru out the day..only time I ever have to worry about my birds is when they are coming in for the trap but I bet you this ,that if you flew rollers here they would all be gone in no time at all .I used to fly my tipplers but them being such slow flyers the hawks had no problems taking them right out of the air .I know the hawks around here very well and you are kidding yourself if you think your birds will continually out fly them , im not saying they will get them all but people who fly their birds are going to have to except that they are going to lose them all thru out the year.


----------



## LUCKYT

Well i like you to much to argue about his any more, i never lost a tippler to the cooper's here. Colby jack might come and get the ROLLERS that have made it though 4 years of Cooper's nesting 150 feet in front of my loft this weekend.I guess it was a miracle, i started with 4 pair, still have 7 originals, all flown every year, plus gave away more young then i can remember, and still have the young i breed this year... What can i say? you need to stay off those roller websites... Dave


----------



## Guest

I guess it doesnt help being that my loft is surrounded by tall trees and thicks woodlands ,it makes those ambushes that much more easy to take place ,slow birds just dont last here long and most times you dont even see it happen , you just notice birds that go missing


----------



## LUCKYT

Look i like you and you have been very descent. this weekend if i remember, i will take pics of all the trees, and wires around my loft....
With rollers the method is to get them up Quick, when they are done flying, get them to trap fast. if they roof sit, you will loose a bunch. Remember, Cooper's do not take them in the air, they Spook them when they are SITTING, THEN take them in the air.JMVHO Dave


----------



## RodSD

Those people that got arrested are not color breeders. They compete in roller competition. Those fireball roller are deep rollers. I think the hawk just waits until those birds get tired and hits them. That is the way my resident hawks does it. It waits on a tree where my loft happens to be, then when my birds land it attacks them. It will also wait to the next door neighbor's tree. I tried throwing something in the air to scare it, but it learned to ignore me. My observation is that hawks adapt as well. I still remember that hawk vividly waited for my birds on a tree for almost one hour until my birds started landing. Then it swooped. Very clever. I have also observed that some hawks just don't have much patience and leave the place if they didn't get any the first try. I like those. The persistent ones I don't like. Thus far this spring the hawk is ignoring my birds. I suppose there are a lot of other foods out there.


----------



## LittleJohn

> Welcome Donn, I think what most people miss is the Cooper's are not air catchers


News to me. I have had coopers hit twice this year and both times, the birds were in the air, coming in towards the loft.

Coopers can and most definitely do catch these birds in the air....

But it isn't worth gettin upset about. Have a nice day.


----------



## Guest

LittleJohn said:


> News to me. I have had coopers hit twice this year and both times, the birds were in the air, coming in towards the loft.
> 
> Coopers can and most definitely do catch these birds in the air....
> 
> But it isn't worth gettin upset about. Have a nice day.


 LittleJohn you are sooo right , its gonna happen reguardless of what you do in the air or on your roof top .. you can only derter them so much and the rest is out of your hands once your birds leave your loft door or kitbox ..you just gotta try and keep the losses to a minimum by flying smart and being aware of the surrounding area as best you can and when they are not around enjoy your birds for all its worth


----------



## RodSD

I saw with my own eyes that Coopers can catch prey from the air. One is with sparrow and several are my birds. Obviously both prey and predator falls to the ground. Nevertheless, I think hawks do more damage ambush style where the bird is just sitting down and gets hit. I think that's what hawk uses more often as tactic.


----------



## Crazy Pete

There is an artical on Heckkenklak.com on how to use fake owls to stop hawks. Mount them on poles put them up only when you fly your birds then take them down, that way the hawk wont get used to them.
Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

I have one of those large owl decoys, and I will sure enough give it a try! Thanks for the info.


----------



## LUCKYT

I have had an Owl decoy in front of my loft for years, The first Summer I used it I moved it around like they recommend, once or twice a day. 
May have worked some, but i did not see a difference.
Maybe i should have Clarified my statement on Cooper's catching in the Air, They do attempt it, but i have seen even my slowest Old Cock bird get away from them, now that is when they are up and Flying, not coming in or taking off. Sitting, taking off, and Landing is what Cooper's prefer From what i have observed, and you can see by the Pics in photo Albums, i see them often and Spend hours in my watching them interact with my Pigeons. Unlike a Peregrine, which is VERY good at air strikes. JMHO Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

Maybe I have a perigrene then...are perigrene migrators?


----------



## LUCKYT

I think in some areas they do, other areas no... Refresh my Memory, were do you live? Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

South Central Pennsylvania, about 75 miles direct north of Baltimore Md.


----------



## LUCKYT

Sounds like you are on the Border between seeing them in spring, and Fall,and Breeding range, but my book is old. How far south are than say, Chicago, were you are at?
Sorry, i am Lazy today...Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

Chicago? I'd say it is a little north of us on the line. I went and looked at some more pictures of the hawks...and also found out that the two that are mentioned are often mistaken for one another. This bird has a very white belly and very definitive black spots on the underbelly and undersides of the tailfeathers. I am leaning more towards a peregrine, than a coopers, now that I have done some homework....

So far it has cost us two rollers this year, hpoefully it will migrate, and I will be able to fly in the next couple of weeks.

My trap training is going increasingly better, I have adjusted the feed, and now my kit birds are trapping(all of them) within the first few minutes of being on the trapcage. I used to have a couple who would hang out in the cage and look around for a while, but now it seems that I have their full attention.

I hope that this will also help prevent further attacks, in that they will trap quickly after they have flown.

It will be an interesting year, for sure.


----------



## LUCKYT

Sounds like you have it under control. Getting them up to fly quick, and landing and trapping Quick is the best tool you have to avoid Losses, you will have some, but if you have only lost two, you are doing pretty good for Yourself! again, keeping the Window of "At risk time"(Getting them up, and getting them in) is the best management, not to mention, the best way to have a Good Team of TRAINED Rollers! Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

I feel your pain justice, I guess the best thing to do is learn the best way to prevent it from happening...that's what I am after, because I WILL fly my birds, and I will for sure do my best to prevent any hawk attacks...other than that...we just gotta do the best we can.


----------



## Big T

My latest weapon is an auto fire plastic BB gun because I can spray at the hawks while they are flying overhead. Doesn't hurt them but it unnerves the hawks to have something attacking them while flying. I now got this nesting pair of hawks avoiding me. They even fly away from me when I am up the street at my neighbor's house. 

So far I haven't lost a bird since I went on the attack and never leave my birds alone, (knock on wood). In some small way I'm a little sad. I did love watching the Hawks when my birds were locked up but now they will not let me near them.


----------



## Brummie

*Hawk's*

You know we can complain all we want.The hawk's are here to stay!
I have a friend in England, has flown bird's for the last fifty year's. He live's next to a forest preserve. A pair of perigon's decided to nest not a 100 metre's away from his loft. He had bird watcher's out there, the local humane police watching (except when of those stealth's netted one of his bird's).
There was nothing he could do about it. And I think that's the case here in America. Our bird's either have to get hawk savvy or we keep them locked up.
Just my opinion, but I think over time our bird's will develope an inherhant hawk deterant mentality.
There are some great documentories on the subject. Check out the Discovery channel.
Excuse my English ( it's not me, it's my keyboard)


----------



## B.Pigeons

Buy a fake owl and put it up so the hawks wont come.
Hawks are scare of owls..
We are doing that at my brothers back yard.
We have a fake owl there.


----------



## Brummie

B.Pigeons said:


> Buy a fake owl and put it up so the hawks wont come.
> Hawks are scare of owls..
> We are doing that at my brothers back yard.
> We have a fake owl there.


Maybe it's differant in differant area's. The hawk's just sit on my fake owls. Higher vantage point. Read my last post.


----------



## Jay3

The owls don't work for long. They catch on eventually. And you'd have to keep moving it around. An owl that just sits in one place for days isn't very effective. That idea has been around for so long. If it worked against hawks, you'd have a run on fake owls, and a lot of happy flyers. And there would be no need for this thread. Sorry.


----------



## Crazy Pete

You are to take the owl down and put it away when not flying your birds, that way the hawk will not get used to it.
Dave


----------



## LUCKYT

Big T. has learned something i have always believed in, Startling ANY predator, is something they HATE. Anything that Startles them, that is repeated will Unnerve them, remember they are the ones Designed to startle. Even banging a garbage can lid will work, Heck I have even spooked them off a bird they were trying to hit by clapping my hands.
Varying it as Big T has, is the answer, so they do not get used to it.
As well as getting your birds up fast, and down, and in fast.
When i was a kid, the few hawks we had avoided people like the Plague, because the got shot at so much in the sixties... you can achieve the same effect by startling them. Whenever i am in the situation that my pigeons are loafing on the Roof, around here it is called, being in "Menu" Mode, and the Hawks read the "Menu" well. Dave
P.S. BUT do not startle a Bear, you might get Mauled! LOL!


----------



## LittleJohn

I had one of the young kit birds fly by me as I was catching them for trap training tonight. He went up by himself and took a 10-15 minute flight around the place and landed on the workshop roof.

We got him up a couple times and he finally landed on the kitbox and went in the trap within a couple of minutes. I think I am finally getting closer to the right amount of food for them. This particular bird has never flown that long before, by himself or even with the other kit birds. I was fretting another hawk attack, but he went up about 30-40 feet and just circled and darted and finally settled on the kitbox, and trapped in.

I am looking forward to this summer when I can fly them daily, and not be so wary of the hawk situation.

Today was a good day.

The other 6 birds in the kit listened to the whistle and the can shaking, and trapped within one minute, so it is getting better every time, and I think they are starting to get the idea.

Does it get any better?

LittleJohn


----------



## LUCKYT

Good for you Little John! That is one of the Hardest points to get down with rollers, or Homers....how much too Feed. There is no set amount, except the point you start at. I can say it was hard for me, and still is.
I think that you are in control of your Birds. THAT is the way to Keep the hawks off of them. Dave


----------



## LittleJohn

It is for sure a learning process. Truth be told, that bird that went on his own tonight, probably didn't eat, as the other kit birds went in quick, and went right to the feeder.

I will bet you this though, tomorrow, when I go to catch them, if he decides to escape again, that he will trap in right away instead of hanging out on the shop roof.

I was watching all around for the hawks, but he was lucky tonight. It was good to see him trap in as quick as he did, and I believe that is one of the keys to keeping them away from the hawks.

Every day gets better. I love it!

LittleJohn


----------



## Big T

Today was a laugh. I let the birds out after work around 6:45pm. I went around the front of the house but caught sight of the hawk flying into my neighbor's yard behind my house. I sighted in on him from around the corner of my house so he didn't see me and fired just as he took off and came in for an attack. Full auto paint balls coming at him made him flare out to hit the brakes which also made him an open target. Poor thing got hit twice I think and I bet he didn't stop until he hit the next county. I could not have made that shot if I tried. I wasn't even expecting to hit him, just scare him like usual. Anyway I got one hawk with a little color in my neighborhood. I also had to clean my neighbor's back side of his house because the rest of the paint balls hit his house. Lucky I didn't hit a window.


----------



## Big T

On the feed issue, I feed them for ten minutes then remove any left over food. Because of that my birds trap fast to eat. Except one hen who loves to fly, she will only trap at dark. That one I just can't figure, she knows when all the other birds trap including her mate and knows the food will not be there, but she flys and flys. She does eat well in the during morning feeding.


----------



## LUCKYT

Yep, Big T it is all about control! Dave


----------

