# Pigeons and Tramadol?



## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I have a pigeon that I have taken some very tight twine off of both her feet. One of the toes looks like it might recover but the other looks dead. I have been warned that if she knocks this dead toe off she could bleed to death, so first does anyone know of any techniques to stop heavy bleeding if this does happen?

Secondly she is staying up on the pole by herself most of the time, and after watching her I believe it is because she finds almost everything she does painful. The twine was pulled so tight that outside I spotted her because the other pigeons were picking on her because she could not get up on her feet. I have a small amount of Metacam left that I am giving her at the moment, but it will soon run out. I have trouble getting any of the local vets to see me with a pigeon so I cannot get any more. I have brought some liquid ibuprofen to use after the Metacam, but I have also been offered a couple of Tramadol tablets by my sister who has them for an injury. I have found the following article on wikipedia:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol#Veterinary_medicine

And assuming I can open the capsule and dissolve the content into water, do you think I should give a little of this to her to help with this obviously painful injury?

I am giving her Baytril to try and protect her from the feet getting infected, but her feet do seem to feel hot. Maybe I should increase the dosage. I think it is going to take some time to heal.

Thank you for your advice,
Brian.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Best to use is Metacam. If you're running out of it try to get childrens motrin (ibuprofen).
The side effect for all those antiinflammatories is kidney failure. Ibuprofen should not be used more than three days in birds. Tramadol is even worse re kidney failure side effects. I would not use it.
I gave once my pij who had cancer and was in great pain percocet (vet said it's ok to use). If you have any you can give a tiny bit.
The feet being hot is expected, the circulation is still there trying to heal the tissues.
What dose of bactrim are you giving?

For bleeding have flour, quick stop or coffee ready.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

The only human pain medicine for which I've found dosages in a proper Avian Veterinary medicine book is Aspirin. Off the top of my head, you need to use the water soluble variety like `aspro clear'. You dissolve 1 X 300mg tablet in 300ml of water, and give 1/10 of ml. 

This where I got the information:

http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/avmed/ampa/18.pdf

I haven't been able to find any dosages for Ibuprofen or Morphine/tramadol in any Avian medicine books so I'd say steer well clear of those. Could be toxic or cause kidney failure.

You could also consider a topical anesthetic cream...that would be safer.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you both for your replies. It sounds like asprin is the safest. As pigeons are so good at hiding pain, the fact that this pigeon was obviously in pain made me want to try to find something more powerful. The poor dear may be in pain for ages as the injury is so bad and is healing really slowly. She definitely shows signs of appreciating being in here with me, she must have had a lot of bullying off the other birds because she kept wanting to sit down.

The wikipedia article that I quoted does say its used in avian medicine, and an opiate would have very few side effects like the kidney problems. I may look into it a bit further to try to work out what would be a good dose to give her.
At the moment I am considering asprin though, but asprin is not a very strong pain killer. Local anesthetic would require me to catch her every hour or so, which is more effort than it is worth.

The dose of Baytril I am giving her is 3 drips into her mouth from an eye dripper. I was advised that was about right. I always give her a ml of water at the same time as she does not come down often to drink and I want to make sure her kidneys have enough water to cope with the medicines.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Brian, I would be wary of using aspirin as a pain reliever for a string injury, or indeed any injury involving a cut wound, especially if any bleeding is or could be caused removing the string.
Aspirin thins the blood and may hinder any blood clotting if a cut was incured, making the stem of blood flow more difficult.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Brian, I would be wary of using aspirin as a pain reliever for a string injury, or indeed any injury involving a cut wound, especially if any bleeding is or could be caused removing the string.
> Aspirin thins the blood and may hinder any blood clotting if a cut was incured, making the stem of blood flow more difficult.


That is a very good point.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I knew that but had forgotten for the moment, thank you for reminding me.

It does look like I am going to try out the tramadol. I think I may have about 2 more doses of Metacam.

I think it is so awful that a local vet will not see me because it is a pigeon, pain is pain who or whatever you are!!!

Brian.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Brian, I read the article and it does sound hopeful doesn't it? I was on Tramadol myself after major abdominal surgery once and it was SO good- like you said, its in a whole different league to aspirin. 

Do you have any ideas for finding out the dosage & safety margin for birds?

PS. Sorry, I didn't see where you mentioned the foot is still bleeding and that you plan to take the string off? I thought this was just for pain relief while the foot heals? Aspirin would be suitable for a bird recovering, but not one bleeding like Bob Mentioned It works very well in my experiences.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

The string has been removed on both feet, but it was so tight one of the toes is dead(or looks that way) and I was warned that at some point it will drop off. If this happens by itself it will probably be ok, but if the pigeon accidentally knocks it off early it may bleed so heavily that it will endanger the life of the pigeon. I will have a bag of flour on hand just in case this happens, but it seems unsafe to use a blood thinner when there is a possibility of heavy bleeding.

I have not worked out a dosage yet for Tramadol, but I will probably use a veterinary text somewhere that will quote a weight ratio graph.

Thanks again,
Brian.

P.s. of course, if anyone here thinks they can offer an educated guess about the Tramadol dosage I would be very grateful. I will have 2 50mg Tramadol tablets tomorrow, out of which I expect to get quite a few doses.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The dosage for Tramadol is 4mg/kg[1000 gms].


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you Charis... I really think she needs the extra help.


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## Cgosch (Jul 31, 2011)

I can't answer your medication issues, but Ican say that I have a pigeon which got it's leg caught and torn. The amount of blood was scary. After cleaning the wound and stopping the bleeding she was fine. A few months later the leg fell off, as it was dead. She is a beautiful bird and continues to breed. She is also one of my best rollers. So if the toe dies and falls off I do not think she will bleed to death.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Brian, Just one thing I remembered just now from when I was on Tramaodol, is my Doctor told me it retards healing via suppressing the immune system, so don't use it for too long.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

So far there seems to be more Metacam left in the bottle than I expected, so I am still giving her Metacam at the moment. I will watch to see if the pain has subsided somewhat, and if it has I will use a little ibuprofen or maybe just leave it.
She was in obvious pain when it was first done, but she has had a few days now and does not look so bothered by it, although she is still holding the foot up.

I will make a judgement when the Metacam runs out.

Thank you,
Brian.

P.s. I am constantly amazed at the pigeons ability to heal itself, we could never leave a dead toe or foot to drop off!!!! we would die first lol.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Brian...the thing about Ibuprophen does come up periodically on this site. My wildlife veterinarian friend told me not to use it when I inquired many years ago. Recently, I asked her again and she replied in big bold letters...*not to use it.* She said the safety margin is so small and that unless one is very precise, it is a dangerous drug to use. I've learned a lot from her, known her more than 20 years and so I thought I'd pass it on to you. Certainly what you do with the info is up to you but I thought you should be aware.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

What a pity as I had heard that it was a good alternative to Metacam. I am to pick up a single 50mg Tramadol tablet tomorrow and I will use it if the pigeon still looks in pain. Thank you for the information.

She is looking more alert and I have given her a Harkers 3-in-1, and I have also given her a few drops of Ivermectin on the back of the neck. As she has been crawling about on the floor for a while it will help clear her of parasites and allow her to get on with healing. When I give her the Metacam at night I also give her about half a ml of vitamin water to make sure she has enough fluid. I hope all this will mean it will be unnecessary to give Tramadol, but I will have it if she is still in pain.

Thanks for the info.
Brian.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Brian...the thing about Ibuprophen does come up periodically on this site. My wildlife veterinarian friend told me not to use it when I inquired many years ago. Recently, I asked her again and she replied in big bold letters...*not to use it.* She said the safety margin is so small and that unless one is very precise, it is a dangerous drug to use. I've learned a lot from her, known her more than 20 years and so I thought I'd pass it on to you. Certainly what you do with the info is up to you but I thought you should be aware.


I really appreciate this information too Charis, thanks so much for posting it! I've seen Ibruprofen mentioned on this forum at times too, but when I've asked for more information noone has been able to answer me.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I have not been back to update this thead in a long time, but I have subsequently learnt that Tramadol is used by vets to alleviate extreme pain in pigeons and other birds by vets. In a case I had where I had a water bird(coot) with a badly mangled leg and was half unconcious, I was told to use a .01ml Metacam and .1mg tramadol. The bird looked a lot more comfortable after this compination, and although she was unable to move, she was watching what the other birds were doing. before this she was in so much pain that her head was just flopping down. I think extreme pain can kill, so I was glad to be able to alleviate some of the pain for this bird until I was able to get her to someone who could deal with the mangled leg.


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