# Look at GFL!



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Wow! Looks like he made a killing last week on the auctions. Advertising, I tell can fetch the big bucks.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> Wow! Looks like he made a killing last week on the auctions. Advertising, I tell can fetch the big bucks.


He did not get my money LOL


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

It is a combination of purchasing top quality birds & marketing. He is superb at both IMO.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2010)

he could sell so/so birds and still make a killing on them if you ask me , all they need on them is that GFL band and people just got to have them


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> he could sell so/so birds and still make a killing on them if you ask me , all they need on them is that GFL band and people just got to have them


Very true. All the kids talk about are "GFL this, GFL that!" Not hating on Mike Ganus, but even the kids who aren't fully fledged into the sport know the big name guys and not the good local fliers.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> Very true. All the kids talk about are "GFL this, GFL that!" Not hating on Mike Ganus, but even the kids who aren't fully fledged into the sport know the big name guys and not the good local fliers.


I dont know about you, but if I had a GFL banded bird, I would be pretty excited! Ganus has one of the best collections here in the states. If you have a gfl banded bird, you can bet its closely related to some famouse, proven pigeons.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> It is a combination of purchasing top quality birds & marketing. He is superb at both IMO.


You can say that again !! I "Invested" in a bunch of GFL banded birds when I first started, and they didn't all pan out for me, but some did. Let's face it, Mike Ganus is the greatest pigeon merchant in the USA if not the world !!


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

I looked at the auction and did not see that he sold any birds, I might have missed one. He did not sell much this time.

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

eyespyer said:


> I looked at the auction and did not see that he sold any birds, I might have missed one. He did not sell much this time.
> 
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/


Last I seen b4 all the auctions ended there was only 30 something out of the 100 birds to start still up for auction since the other 60 something had already been bought with the flash buy option.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The only GFL bird I have ever wished I wanted birds from, was the Golden Mattens.


I don't like Ganus because he doesn't sell winning birds, he sells bred-for-stock birds. At those prices, I want something with a record.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The only GFL bird I have ever wished I wanted birds from, was the Golden Mattens.
> 
> 
> I don't like Ganus because he doesn't sell winning birds, he sells bred-for-stock birds. *At those prices, I want something with a record*.


That I agree with 100% ! 

As I got a little older and wiser, that was the route that I finally took. And then one can take an additional step, and buy birds with not only great race records, but a breeding record as well. The problem is, by the time you get down to that level of screening, where you have a "to die for" pedigree, a good race record, and a proven breeding record, you end up with something really quite rare. And then you will be bidding for the bird with the Mike's of the world bidding against you, or more likely, folks from Tawain. Then you are really talking insane prices.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> That I agree with 100% !
> 
> As I got a little older and wiser, that was the route that I finally took. And then one can take an additional step, and buy birds with not only great race records, but a breeding record as well. The problem is, by the time you get down to that level of screening, where you have a "to die for" pedigree, a good race record, and a proven breeding record, you end up with something really quite rare. And then you will be bidding for the bird with the Mike's of the world bidding against you,* or more likely, folks from Tawain. Then you are really talking insane prices*.


Ain't that the truth!  I think they are worse than us when it comes to buying birds for crazy prices.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Ain't that the truth!  I think they are worse than us when it comes to buying birds for crazy prices.


I am sure you have seen this before, but for those who havn't : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgb10o2fpX0

They are pigeon crazy !  And they have embraced Capitalism, so there are many well to do pigeon fanciers, who will pay huge sums for what they want.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I feel fortunate that I was able to pick up an 08 double inbred "GOLDEN MATTENS" cock at auction from another racer in New York for a very reasonable price. I won a 2010 hen last week from GFL with a flash buy option that I specifically bought for him.


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## Caden's Aviary (Jul 14, 2010)

Mary- for somebody so young, you seem to have a lot of sense. I realize you have a lot of posts, but anybody can do that. Seems like you been paying close attention to what some good bird men have been telling you. I'm new, and probably don't know have as much as you, but either way I'm impressed.

Brian


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think if a guy were smart and wanted the GFL blood, they would watch who is buying these birds. Follow up on getting a few youngsters off the bloodline. Second generation birds are reasonable in price. My Ikon grandson was a gift, but went for about $300. My mentor bought a son of the Ikon for $2000. Granted not the same % genetics wide, but still good blood. This is assuming that we are buying paper and not birds. 
What I have found is an established pedigree from a family of racers is much better than a pedigree off of a mix of world champions. Not to say you cannot produce a great family out of them. But why spend the time. 
Warren went for the Paper and the race record with the Ludos. Now if they do not win the big one, it will be all for lost. 
Now as for my Ikon grandson, he passed away in the spring. Like a famous painter, I am finally seeing his results with my equal 1st off him this year at 250. Ironic that his last baby was a winner. He bred decent birds before, but not my best. 
In conclusion, I think GFL birds guarantee one thing. That they are off birds that were one time very good.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Isn't that what this is all about? People talk about unproven birds, but if you buy a descendant of a proven bird, that is more than one generation from the proven birds, some think you are wasting your money. So, the gist of it is, if you just purchase direct children from proven birds, you are OK, but if not, you are a fool. So, when the proven birds pass on, what is one to do? I guess throw up your hands and come to the conclusion that there is no use purchasing any more birds, since the proven birds are no more. Seems like it is a paradox to me. Just my opinion.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Interesting points, but I think the notion that the farther down the line you get, the harder it is to produce a good consistent bird. Perhaps the winning gene combination is bigger to find because each time you breed a bird, it can lose anywhere from 50% to 25% of the genetics. So the question begs, "direct son/daughter or a proven racer/breeder grandchild?"


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Excellent point Kal-El. As the genetics are diluted, one could line breed or inbreed to keep the percentage of the genetics up.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Kal-El said:


> Interesting points, but I think the notion that the farther down the line you get, the harder it is to produce a good consistent bird. Perhaps the winning gene combination is bigger to find because each time you breed a bird, it can lose anywhere from 50% to 25% of the genetics. So the question begs, "direct son/daughter or a proven racer/breeder grandchild?"


I'd take the proven racer/breeder grandchild or even a proven racer/breeder with no pedigree or out of a bunch of no name stuff. Just because you know the name of some birds in the background doesn't mean anything if the bird happens to be a dud. I always look to add a few birds to the breeding loft each year to see if I can maybe find somthing that improves my results. The first thing I look for is some good race record or breeding record. If I can't get one of those for the amout I'm looking to spend at that time I'll look for birds with a decent background. I'll give the birds who have flown good or bred good more time in my loft to prove themself if they don't breed anything the first two years I'll change pairings once or twice. On the other hand if I got the bird just because of it's background if it's a dud in the breeding coop after 2 years I'll probly move him to the coop I keep my duds/pumpers and if I run into a problem where somthing dies unexpectantly or gets out of the coop. I'll give a dud a second chance.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

So, what you are saying is, that if some of the birds on the pedigree are known to you that doesn't mean anything. Giving me as an example, I shouldn't be purchasing the birds which I have, even though there are bird's on all of their pedigree's which are world famous, because it doesn't mean anything. I don't understand what you are saying. These "known names" are proven as race winners, and are known to all racing enthusiast's who read up on the sport, and some are also "proven breeders". But that does not mean anything. So a person shouldn't buy these "known names", because they might be a dud. You are rite in the fact that they may be a dud, but if one does not purchase them, he will never know the answer to that. Just expressing my opinion.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

bbcdon said:


> So, what you are saying is, that if some of the birds on the pedigree are known to you that doesn't mean anything. Giving me as an example, I shouldn't be purchasing the birds which I have, even though there are bird's on all of their pedigree's which are world famous, because it doesn't mean anything. I don't understand what you are saying. These "known names" are proven as race winners, and are known to all racing enthusiast's who read up on the sport, and some are also "proven breeders". But that does not mean anything. So a person shouldn't buy these "known names", because they might be a dud. You are rite in the fact that they may be a dud, but if one does not purchase them, he will never know the answer to that. Just expressing my opinion.


I said the names in the pedigree mean nothing if the bird is a dud. Which shouldn't be too hard to understand. A dud is a dud no matter who it's out of just because it had so and so in it background doesn't mean a thing if it's a dud. And just because the bird has some big name which is probly over inflated any way because of all the hype and advertisment put out by the big sellers. Doesn't mean the bird is all that good either. Look at all the birds that are breed out of these big name birds they a breed like crazy with pumper pairs. Thats why you hardly ever see and advertisment about a hen they can only get so much out of the hen 4 to 6 a month if you really push them but they won't last long doing that they'll be burnt out pretty quickly. Mean while a cock can be poly bred and you can get a hundred or more babies out of him in a year. Now one or 2 of them do good and they play off them 2 young being champs as him being such a good breeder he breed 2 champs. But if you realy look how good was he out of the 100 breed only 2 were good. Would that bird be in your breeding loft. It would take 15 years to breed 100 young out of him in a normal breeding system. I don't see 2 good birds in 15 years as good. But they have to sell these birds to make up for all the money the spent on them so every good bird out of them is put on a pedestal so that that origanl looks good but you don't hear about the other 25 or 50 duds the so called champ breeder bred. Not to mention now that he has 100 young now next season he has a 1000 grand kids then 10,000 great grand kids the year after. Some of them are bound to do good.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Exactly, but if you don't purchase the bird, how do you know it is a dud or not. That is not hard to understand is it? How could it be inflated hype if the bird is a proven world class bird? And as far as advertisement by the big sellers, what do you think marketing is all about? I guess if your birds were at the top of the heap, you would not advertise and try to get the best return on your investment. Why don't you put one of your top birds on iPigeon auction, and see how it fares as far as the selling price with one of the "BIG NAME" sellers, and see who comes out on top? The top tool of marketing is advertising. How else can one show to the consumer the quality of his product?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

bbcdon said:


> Exactly, but if you don't purchase the bird, how do you know it is a dud or not. That is not hard to understand is it? How could it be inflated hype if the bird is a proven world class bird? And as far as advertisement by the big sellers, what do you think marketing is all about? I guess if your birds were at the top of the heap, you would not advertise and try to get the best return on your investment. Why don't you put one of your top birds on iPigeon auction, and see how it fares as far as the selling price with one of the "BIG NAME" sellers, and see who comes out on top? The top tool of marketing is advertising. How else can one show to the consumer the quality of his product?


Like I said I would buy a bird just for it's background if I can't get what I'm really looking for which is a bird who was consistently at or near the top of the race sheets in a bunch of races for the money I'm looking to spend at the time. I'll give a bird I bought just for it's background only 2 to 3 years to prove somthing to me in the breeding loft after that I'd call it a dud. And only breed out of it if I really needed to. As for advertising and selling birds on Ipigeon I'm not racing pigeons to become a pigeon seller I race for my enjoyment. I could really care less how much my bird would sell for compaired to a Big Name guy birds because I believe my birds are better.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

But the thing you miss is just because the bird has been forced down everybody's throat with advertisement after advertisement in the mags doesn't mean the bird is truly any good. Why do the top birds they push change every year and last years hot bird seams to be lost in the past. It's because that bird they were pushing the year b4 wasn't truly the champ they made them out to be and they made their money back selling the crap they could get out of them to ppl who think the bird is good because they paid alot for it.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Gee, I didn't realize that they were putting a gun to anyone's head to buy their birds. I guess all of the birds on a GFL pedigree with proven racing quality is just a propaganda tool. I suppose there is a world wide conspiracy to distort the race results in Europe. Sounds like the propaganda machine is working overtime. Needless to say, the birds that are winners on those pedigree's were big winner's, and that cannot be denied. Is this a case of envy or jealousy, that you feel you have to knock the big time seller's. I admire them for winning, and promoting and marketing their birds with success. Let the free market rule. So anyone out there who has a gun to his head to purchase any of these birds, by all means, contact your local authorities, and let them know that you are being forced under diress to buy these birds.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Gee, I didn't realize that they were putting a gun to anyone's head to buy their birds. I guess all of the birds on a GFL pedigree with proven racing quality is just a propaganda tool. I suppose there is a world wide conspiracy to distort the race results in Europe. Sounds like the propaganda machine is working overtime. Needless to say, the birds that are winners on those pedigree's were big winner's, and that cannot be denied. Is this a case of envy or jealousy, that you feel you have to knock the big time seller's. I admire them for winning, and promoting and marketing their birds with success. Let the free market rule. So anyone out there who has a gun to his head to purchase any of these birds, by all means, contact your local authorities, and let them know that you are being forced under diress to buy these birds.


 my opinion on this is that your best bet would to be to get a young bird kit off their proven birds as they would still be unproven at best in the race circuit and anything that they are selling over two years of age are just being sold as they have not proved themselves to be worthy of any real breeding potential for them .. but that doesnt mean that they cant throw out a good bird every now in then with a good breeding combination , just means that it would be far and few between ..but thats just my opinion .. most just go for the fact that they have a GFL band on them and it makes them feel good that they have some GFL stock in their lofts to say look what Im breeding from lol still if you got no results from those birds it means very little in the long run and that you spent alot of money for very little results


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

If my memory serves me correct, I don't think the big seller's sell kits of young birds, they sell them individually. As far as their breeding potential, are you aware of the matings they have tried, or are you just speculating? I also guess that you are privy to their results of matings, as you say, they may throw out a good bird every now and then. Also, you must know that they are few and far between. You must have an inside source to make such bold statements. Also, you are assuming that the overall results of those which purchase GFL birds make them feel good, but they are from birds which are proven winners. Also, you state that if these birds produce no winners, it means nothing in the long run. Is this wishful thinking on your part, hoping that the big dog loses? I wonder if Mike Ganus and the other big dogs lose sleep at nite thinking of all the pessimism that many fanciers have about him? But if they have results from these big name seller bird's, does that upset those of you who are hoping that these birds fail?


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> If my memory serves me correct, I don't think the big seller's sell kits of young birds, they sell them individually. As far as their breeding potential, are you aware of the matings they have tried, or are you just speculating? I also guess that you are privy to their results of matings, as you say, they may throw out a good bird every now and then. Also, you must know that they are few and far between. You must have an inside source to make such bold statements. Also, you are assuming that the overall results of those which purchase GFL birds make them feel good, but they are from birds which are proven winners. Also, you state that if these birds produce no winners, it means nothing in the long run. Is this wishful thinking on your part, hoping that the big dog loses? I wonder if Mike Ganus and the other big dogs lose sleep at nite thinking of all the pessimism that many fanciers have about him? But if they have results from these big name seller bird's, does that upset those of you who are hoping that these birds fail?


 if you notice people that sell these birds at actions never really use the results from birds they themselves have raised from these birds they just use results of the parentage that ganus has resulted from having them or from where they came from before ganus has purchased them .. everyone has thier own opinions on this but to each their own and I personally dont really think anyone loses any sleep over it especailly ganus since he is where the top birds are coming from to begin with ,one has to start somewhere but honestly if all it took was to buy a few birds from ganus to be on top everyone in the racing world would have bought their birds directly from them to stock their breeding lofts if you ask me and they would all be winning too or at least in the top 10% which they are not


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

To each his own. The fact remains that his main birds are "WINNERS". I hope that all of you who are against the big name seller's do well.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't like to be fooled by advertisements. Learned that long ago. Marketing don't tell the whole story. They will only want you to hear what they want you to hear/know. That is why I am always suspicious of birds that are very expensive. Quite possibly the seller is either trying to recoup expenses or they are really quite special bird or very few supplies. And how would I know the truth?! Can I ask the seller for the truth? Can I ask whether these birds have breed culls more than good birds? Can the company say that their products suck? I don't think so.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> To each his own. The fact remains that his main birds are "WINNERS". I hope that all of you who are against the big name seller's do well.


 this has nothing to do with being against him and those great birds that he has bought over the years and is breeding ,its just stating that how many people that have bought those birds decending from them are winning all the one loft races or even races in their own clubs and combines???? it is a great start for those who can aford it but it doesnt garentee anyone being in the winners circle thats all I am saying .


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

"Marketing don't tell the whole story". Nice quote. Exactly, don't be fooled by those GFL ads in the digest. They are just propaganda to promote his birds. I am glad to see that you can see through this. You are asking the right questions. Mike Ganus has nothing on you.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2010)

my only other response to you would have to be is that I hope you prove us wrong with the birds that you have bought so far from these ganus greats that you so idolize and I wish you the best of luck .


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Now there you are wrong. " I hope that you prove us wrong with the birds that you have bought so far from these Ganus greats that you so idolize". Believe me, I do not idolize them as you say, but I do not put them down as other's do just because they are "big seller birds". Apparently everyone does not think as you do, otherwise, Mike Ganus would not be selling any birds. Enjoy your "little name birds" and may you have great success in your endeavor.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Personally it is hard for me to reassess Ganus birds (although I look at race records). I know that they have good pedigrees, but usually the birds he sells are untested so I have nothing to based on their abilities except their parents. I think it is up to you take the chance of buying expensive birds. You might win the lottery and the kids perform real well just like their parents do. If so, then you really won the lottery! Now buying birds from proven parents means that you have greater chances of acquiring better birds. Now how much will that cost? That is a different story because it is now marketing or business. To me it is hard to put a value of a bird without proven performance records.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

The price is dictated by the market forces. God bless capitalism.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Believe me, I am by no means the only one who participates in purchasing his birds. If not, he would drift away into the sunset.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Now there you are wrong. " I hope that you prove us wrong with the birds that you have bought so far from these Ganus greats that you so idolize". Believe me, I do not idolize them as you say, but I do not put them down as other's do just because they are "big seller birds". Apparently everyone does not think as you do, otherwise, Mike Ganus would not be selling any birds. Enjoy your "little name birds" and may you have great success in your endeavor.


I am not putting them down by any means but lol you wont be seeing me wasting any of my money on any GFL birds thats for sure ... but then you dont see warren smith wasting any of his money on them either these days  its like rod said your chances of getting any great birds is as good as playing the lottery ,so again to each their own .. ganus has alot of great birds and the money to purchase them too so every race record he buys gives him the marketing tools he needs to sell off any of his offspring yearly... again that said good luck with anything you purchase from him or any of his lines bred down from him and I wish you well with that


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I am glad to hear you are spending your money on worthwhile objects, and not wasting it. Like they say: "Waste not, want not". What Warren does with his money is his business. He has done an extraordinary job in pigeon racing. Are you bringing in Warren to fight your battle for you? I am glad to hear that Rod said these controversial birds you are talking about are alike to the lottery. I surmise from that statement, that your birds are a sure thing. My congratulations to you! Ganus buys his race records eh? Is it that you are jealous that you do not have the financial resources he does to buy race records or what? Whether you buy, breed, or whatever means, the end result is what counts.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Ganus gets those prices because that's what the market dictates.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Capitalism indeed! And great marketing helps a lot! Even as we discuss now, we are helping to promote his birds (Ganus) whether we know it or unconsciously know it or not. Ganus can choose those prices because he can! He has the birds that we like, but can't have it so we can only get their children or grandchildren. There is nothing you can do, but pay his price if you want direct children of his famous birds. To me that is monopoly and if you have that power, you are in control. As I said before it is nice to be Ganus.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> You can say that again !! I "Invested" in a bunch of GFL banded birds when I first started, and they didn't all pan out for me, but some did. Let's face it, Mike Ganus is the greatest pigeon merchant in the USA if not the world !!


Yeah! Not all will be champs or breed champs but we know dat!


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Isn't that what this is all about? People talk about unproven birds, but if you buy a descendant of a proven bird, that is more than one generation from the proven birds, some think you are wasting your money. So, the gist of it is, if you just purchase direct children from proven birds, you are OK, but if not, you are a fool. So, when the proven birds pass on, what is one to do? I guess throw up your hands and come to the conclusion that there is no use purchasing any more birds, since the proven birds are no more. Seems like it is a paradox to me. Just my opinion.


A proven racer will not necessarily give you champion racers. A proven breeder may give you exceptional birds but here and there you may also get an inferior bird, so it is a lottery. Better chances of winning it is if on all sides of the pedigree you have champion *breeders*!
No, I'm not impressed by the odd diploma, I need to see many more at every generation.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> I am glad to hear you are spending your money on worthwhile objects, and not wasting it. Like they say: "Waste not, want not". What Warren does with his money is his business. He has done an extraordinary job in pigeon racing. Are you bringing in Warren to fight your battle for you? I am glad to hear that Rod said these controversial birds you are talking about are alike to the lottery. I surmise from that statement, that your birds are a sure thing. My congratulations to you! Ganus buys his race records eh? Is it that you are jealous that you do not have the financial resources he does to buy race records or what? Whether you buy, breed, or whatever means, the end result is what counts.


 Seriously were you drinking last night or just angry ?? you took everything I wrote in a way other then I was conveying into words here while I was writing it and it is just my opinion after all not the gospel ?? I was just stating what I have read not bringing anyone into this so called fight as you seemed to think it was and trust me there is no jeolousy on my part , Ganus is a true guru of pigeons and marketing them no doubt about that ... I look for the end result as well and when I see how many birds he enters in all those one loft races and how few come thru in the end that alone should tell you exactly what RodSD said about pigeons in general as for being like its the lottery and I agree with him totally on his statement .. no need to get all hostile about other people having their own opinions..if you want them buy them its that simple , GFL only sells possibilities not promises .


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I am not angry, just frustrated. Due to the fact that I recently purchased GFL birds, I take it somewhat personal. And as far as Ganus having a monopoly, anyone is free to travel to Europe & purchase Ace birds from the Master fliers.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> Seriously were you drinking last night or just angry ?? you took everything I wrote in a way other then I was conveying into words here while I was writing it and it is just my opinion after all not the gospel ?? I was just stating what I have read not bringing anyone into this so called fight as you seemed to think it was and trust me there is no jeolousy on my part , Ganus is a true guru of pigeons and marketing them no doubt about that ... *I look for the end result as well and when I see how many birds he enters in all those one loft races and how few come thru in the end *that alone should tell you exactly what RodSD said about pigeons in general as for being like its the lottery and I agree with him totally on his statement .. no need to get all hostile about other people having their own opinions..if you want them buy them its that simple , GFL only sells possibilities not promises .


I don't know the history of Ganus or what he's done to pigeon racing in the US, but, I do know birds bred down from his imports dominate the money races yearly. Maybe it has to do with the numbers that are entered, but if you know the backgrounds of the winners, you'll see a lot of Ganus birds. The winner may not be Ganus, but the birds are. 

If, say it was 1980 and Ganus imported birds for his personal use and not sell, right now today, he would win most of the money races.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> Gee, I didn't realize that they were putting a gun to anyone's head to buy their birds. I guess all of the birds on a GFL pedigree with proven racing quality is just a propaganda tool. I suppose there is a world wide conspiracy to distort the race results in Europe. Sounds like the propaganda machine is working overtime. Needless to say, the birds that are winners on those pedigree's were big winner's, and that cannot be denied. *Is this a case of envy or jealousy, that you feel you have to knock the big time seller's.* I admire them for winning, and promoting and marketing their birds with success. Let the free market rule. So anyone out there who has a gun to his head to purchase any of these birds, by all means, contact your local authorities, and let them know that you are being forced under diress to buy these birds.


 I don't know if that is the case with any particular posters in this thread. But, I do think there is a bit of that going on in the pigeon world. *Something on the order of class envy, folks that are unable to invest in offspring from National Ace birds or the like, then feel they must invest a bunch of energy selling their theory that all such "unproven" birds are therefore overpriced junk.*
Now, how does one go about "proving" these offspring from a National Ace or Super Crack...or other type race winners ? Why you either race them or you breed from them. Typically, when one buys offspring from a National Ace or or other Champion, they are used for breeding. And how are they "proved" ? They are bred from, and if they produce race winners and/or breeders, then they are proved. Will they all produce great winners or breeders ? Of course not, and I don't know any serious fancer who has ever said such a thing. But, I am willing to wager some serious money, that the Mike Ganus bashers of the world, could supply say 20 YB's from their Club or Combine champs....and say a Mike Ganus could supply 20 YB's from his National Aces...and I am willing to bet, that Mike's group will produce some better racers and/or breeders. And I can hear the Mike Ganus type bashers, that never produced any One Loft winners or National Aces themselves, whining something like..."yeah...but my birds are cheaper" or something to that event. And to which I would say....well, *that is why people are willing to pay more money to buy unproven offspring from proven National Race Winners.*...rather then buy your unproven YB's from your little club or combine race winners. 

If the Mike Ganus type bashers, are really producing better pigeons and better results, then promote yourself and your birds, instead of investing your time and energy in bashing the other guy. It is more positive, and better for the sport. 

What I have found in my pigeon experience, is those folks who spend a lot of time bashing other fanciers, other club members etc, and their birds etc., generally don't have a whole lot to brag about themselves. They are generally unhappy folks, who always seem to need to put other flyers, clubs, pigeons, etc down. When you run across them , simply try to avoid them, as they are a cancer on the hobby.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> I am not angry, just frustrated. *Due to the fact that I recently purchased GFL birds,* I take it somewhat personal. And as far as Ganus having a monopoly, anyone is free to travel to Europe & purchase Ace birds from the Master fliers.


 Whenever you go and announce to the world, that you have stepped up to the plate and made an investment into your hobby....you should just figure that you went and painted crosshairs on your back !  The naysayers, and those without the ability or willingness to make such an investment, will then feel the need to bash your decision. 

I am happy for you, and I hope they work out for you. Not everyone can go and purchase race winners from Europe like I have done, but buying the offspring is often a less expensive, and effective way to go. I applaud your efforts. Just keep in mind, that your fellow club/combine members may give you the exact kind of grief you got on here. As Mike is famous for saying..."No body likes a winner". And I am sure that in time, you will be winning more then your fare share. I went through this when I first got back into pigeons myself. I purchased about a dozen from Mike Ganus and I heard the same crap in the club and combine myself. Those that congradulated me, turned out to be the best friends and flyers in our Combine, and those that bashed the Ganus birds, turned out to be the guys who almost never won. 

I still own some GFL banded birds, they paid for themselves several times over when I won the 2007 Flamingo and all of the pool money. Don't pay the naysayers any mind. You are simply ahead of the curve.


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> if you notice people that sell these birds at actions never really use the results from birds they themselves have raised from these birds they just use results of the are not


The suave pigeon merchants will always use/quote results of others, even when the bird is not related to his stock... It's up to the intelligent consumer that does his research to read between the lines. 

You also have to pay attention to what is called "shill bidding". Not everything that gets sold on an auction site is on the level ! Don't get caught up in running up a bird from a shill bidder.

Similarly with one loft races, you have to pay attention to who's connected to who - cause it poses a conflict of interest when your friend wins your one loft race.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

irishsyndicate said:


> The suave pigeon merchants will always use/quote results of others, even when the bird is not related to his stock... It's up to the intelligent consumer that does his research to read between the lines.
> 
> You also have to pay attention to what is called "shill bidding". Not everything that gets sold on an auction site is on the level ! Don't get caught up in running up a bird from a shill bidder.
> 
> Similarly with one loft races, you have to pay attention to who's connected to who - cause it poses a conflict of interest when your friend wins your one loft race.


That all is true. I suspect there are readers who visit various pigeon auction sites that are not even aware as to what a shill bidder is. And I am afraid that not every One Loft race is on the up and up. I mean it's not like the New Jersey Gaming Commission is over seeing every operation.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

bbcdon,
Don't feel frustrated or take it personally. You took the risk by buying his birds. And because the parents may have good records, you have greater chance of acquiring better birds. Yes, it is still a lottery, but you are trying to shift that in your favor.

I honestly don't know whether we are arguing about Ganus birds or his pricing. I mean will you buy cheap Ganus birds or expensive Ganus birds? Or this question. Will you buy proven non-Ganus bird or nonproven Ganus if they cost the same amount?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Problem is there is alot of national ace pigeons right here in the good old USA But the races we have are not near what you find over seas. So many go unknown. Flown in clubs combines federations. There will NEVER be the large races like you read about Because our States are the size of some of the countries in europe. And large amount of raceing people population is scattered widely over this country. 1 loft races well they are small bird wise But they offer a chance to compete nation wide perhaps best test aginst the top flyers. But agin old joe in a club of 6 flyers may very well have some great birds But goes unherad of at his level of flying. Far as Ganus birds He has bought some great birds has helped many a person IS every bird he sales a good bird NO but if it wasnt tested then you would not know. To bad race birds can not be looked at and a person could judge there ability. 1 national ace bird can breed decent birds But will probably Never breed 1 bird better then its self That pigeon breeding. look at all the top racers over seas They get a good bird here then there in there breeding Sure they do ok But those top birds come to a loft just every so often. Anybody can improve there loft It take time But any body who starts out with just 1 good pair and slowly adds as they can afford Will build there loft right as long as they mange there breeding program And selection program of there flyers. That is hard. And the birds do not have to cost thousands. they just have to be able to produce better birds. But 1, 2 thousand dollar pair Is better then 10 2 dollar pairs IF they can produce the better birds. Even those free birds can be a blessing . But never expect the credit you see from europe As the USA just can not have those thousands of bird races. Wish it could be but it can not. Some areas may get up to a couple thousand but most places are lucky to have a 500 bird race. So buy what you can afford enjoy your hobby And move forward with your birds And thats all that can be asked of your self. And yes help others or the sport will die. Be a good loser. and a humble winner.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I am sure you have seen this before, but for those who havn't :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgb10o2fpX0
> 
> They are pigeon crazy !  And they have embraced Capitalism, so there are many well to do pigeon fanciers, who will pay huge sums for what they want.


Nice video - thanks for sharing


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I will not let anything frustrate me in the future. I will proceed full speed ahead. As far as when I look at a GFL bird, I look at it's age, sex, the winners in it's pedigree, and how inbred it is to the different names. I compare it to the birds which I already have, look at the price, then make the decision whether to bid or not. If the bidding gets to the point that I feel is a bit much, I drop out of the process. As far as non-GFL birds, I browse through all of the birds up for auction on my two favorite sites. The main difference I have noticed in most cases when looking at non-GFL birds is that the proven birds are further back in the pedigree, and that is a big factor which I take into consideration. I try to purchase birds which are at least no further from the winner or winner's than a grandson or grand daughter. I recently had a fancier in Texas who wanted to trade a grandson of "TOMBA" & " DREAM BOY" which I own, for a hen of his which was a great grand daughter of "ROCKET". I politely declined as my bird had 2 proven winners which were 2 generations back, and his hen had 1 proven winner which was 3 generations back. It would have been a great trade for him, but not me. I hope this explains the criteria that I use in purchasing birds. I am no way saying that it is the rite way to go, but it is the path which I have chosen.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Well I was looking at Ganus results and it seems that he makes like the 10% rule that we use to judge performance:http://ganusfamilyloft.com/results.htm

I obviously check the results further by going to those One loft website and compare stuff. I do things like that--verifying. Ganus pricings of his birds are still too expensive for me though because some of his competitors that might have beaten him before might be selling their birds cheaper. But if you have the means and really want his birds, then just do so. 

Have you read the concept of the "X-factor" for pigeons where it is speculated that the hen carries it on her mitochondria? Because of that some fanciers prefer hens.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I am still short one hen, but I will take my time trying to pick the rite one for the ones that I have. I am not familiar with the X-Factor, but it sounds like I need to read up on it, thanks.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> I am still short one hen, but I will take my time trying to pick the rite one for the ones that I have. I am not familiar with the X-Factor, but it sounds like I need to read up on it, thanks.


 I surely hope you don't think I was ever trying to insult your birds or put them down in any way at all, all GFL birds included .. I thought I did mentioned the word great many times in my posts as well because I know they are very nice and quality birds for sure with great background to boot ... but yes the prices are way out of my range and the idea of me buying them with those crazy prices is insane to me since I dont race birds or breed any to sell either so I see no reason or need to even go that route but I do appreciate any great looking,worth while race record winning homer non the less and GFL will always be leading the way Im sure with all its imports and additions to the race world when it comes to great pigeons ..that said as I have stated before I hope your birds bring you great pleasure and with great results as well , good luck


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Here is one article:http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/pigeonandloft/mitochondrial-significance-maternal-line

Such concept can explain why some birds skip generations. I don't know if there was/is real scientific experiments testing it though. Nevertheless, I would put it as one tool to use for selecting pigeons. I specifically wanted you to know this because you like to study pedigree in selecting birds.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Such as X-factor is also speculated in horse racing. In that form the size of the heart seems to matter. Probable winning horses have bigger heart so it can pump more blood volumes, etc. Secretariat horse is one of those horses. Even its competitor has bigger heart than others:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretariat_(horse)

So if you have the money, perhaps you people can x-ray your birds and see if their hearts are bigger than normal. Just a thought.


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