# Recovering feral pigeon drinks too much water



## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Dear Pigeon fanciers,

This is my first post here. I have been reading a lot on these forums and have been also learning a lot. Some of the advice I've found here have saved the lives of many pigeons. 

I don't normally raise pigeons but whenever I find one that is sick, I feel like it's compulsory to take him home and make him better. 

Long story short: I have found a 6 months old pigeon in *late December in my hometown, Bucharest, Romania.*
It was suffering from trichomoniasis. I gave it *metronidazole *and he is now cured, but he still presents two symptoms: 
1. he cannot fly, probably from the fact that he was starving for the last weeks and is not strong enough 
2. he drinks excessive amounts of water and still asks for more all the time, although his droppings are not really that wet. They are actually quite good looking: brownish + white, a bit of water on the sides. 

While being on metronidazole his droppings went from dark green (signs of starvation) to dark brown. He actually got constipated when he first started to eat without me having to push corn down his throat, as I did for the last 2 weeks or so. I gave it some olive oil and he got better ever since.

Now he's not lethargic anymore, keeps looking for food around the house and especially WATER! He won't stop drinking water.
Also, regarding his flying capabilities... he just tries to fly and ends up jumping like a kangaroo all the time. I'm sure it's only due to muscle atrophy , but I'm getting a bit worried that he isn't able to lift itself up from the ground more than 5-10 cm. 

What do you guys think? 

p.s. a video of the guy/girl, just so you can get to know them better

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NKq5cOMMbhaqdcbvpLip1_22RZn-Fk5s/view?usp=sharing


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

Canker can colonize internal organs, damaging them irreversibly. I can’t know if that’s why he’s drinking a lot, but it was my first thought. You would need diagnostics to know what’s going on. It could be anything. If he’s not putting on a lot of weight, I’d suspect worms. It wouldn’t hurt to treat for that anyway. 

Could you post a clearer picture of the pigeon? From the video it looks like he’s holding the wing funny. I recently took in 2 2-month old pigeons who had never had the chance to fly. It took them about 12 hours to get some air. If he has energy to run around, he should have energy to fly some. Hows his weight?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Canker will make them drink a lot. So will Cocci. What did you treat with for canker? What dose? For how long? Maybe you didn't give enough or for long enough. Canker could still be an issue. If you need to hand feed, frozen peas that you defrost and warm may be a better idea, as they are easier to digest than corn.

Do you leave water with him all the time?

If you found him starving, then it can take time for him to get strong enough to have the energy to fly.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Drinking excessive water can be a sign of problems with the kidneys. That applies not only in birds. Analysis of droppings is best.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Yes, I treated him for trichomoniasis (canker) for 7 days with 50 mg of Metronidazole per day (2 doses of 25 mg each), as prescribed by an ornithologist veterinary that has helped us a lot with saving lots of birds in the past.

At a certain point, in the second day of treatment, while the canker was continuing to grow, my wife and I had to perform surgery on the poor guy, because it had grown inside his throat so much, that we couldn't feed him anymore so we had to physically dislodge and pull out big chunks of the canker. 

After 7 days I stopped giving him metronidazole and we were able to clear most of the canker from his mouth with ease (using cotton swabs with *methylene blue*).

I must add that his water has always had a 1-2% methylene blue for the duration of the treatment. 

At the moment, he is eating sufficiently, mostly corn and wheat grains, but his droppings are really thick and sometimes I give him a boost with some olive oil to help him out. 

I can look at the droppings with my microscope for some Cocci, if that's helpful.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

John is right of course. It could be something else. I just thought because he did have canker, that it was possible that it was still the canker, as often they are not treated long enough, or with the right dose.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> Canker will make them drink a lot. So will Cocci. What did you treat with for canker? What dose? For how long? Maybe you didn't give enough or for long enough. Canker could still be an issue. If you need to hand feed, frozen peas that you defrost and warm may be a better idea, as they are easier to digest than corn.
> 
> Do you leave water with him all the time?
> 
> If you found him starving, then it can take time for him to get strong enough to have the energy to fly.


If I leave the water with him all the time, all he will ever do is stay near it and try to drink it all ) So, no, I don't leave water with him all the time, I give him water as many times per day as possible, though, using a syringe.

I have a water drinker for birds somewhere, I need to find it ASAP


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Really better to not use the syringe. If he is drinking too much, then just offer him the water several times a day, but let him drink it himself. Just take it away if he over does. A small crock is fine for water.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

*help!*

Guys, please help.
The pigeon is feeling a lot better. He's eating, not drinking as much water, started to use his wings a little bit.

The big problem now is that half of his cheek is eaten by the canker. 
I used a tooth pick to check the integrity of the canker and a really big piece was easily dislodged from there, unfortunately taking with it a bit of his cheek.

Now his beak is a bit twisted, the lower jaw went a bit to the right probably because of the lack of flesh/muscle in that area....
god damn it! I hate this disease! 

Should I still give him some metronidazole or just let him tough it out further?

It's been 2 weeks almost since I stopped with the antibiotic and the canker kept growing on that side.. and there are little yellow strips slowly appearing again along his beak. Just like they were when I found him...

Could it be that the canker is back?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The bird has canker, which I originally said I thought he had.
You need to treat him for canker till it clears. How much did you give him and for how long?
It isn't going to clear on it's own. He will just get worse till he dies.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> The bird has canker, which I originally said I thought he had.
> You need to treat him for canker till it clears. How much did you give him and for how long?
> It isn't going to clear on it's own. He will just get worse till he dies.


you probably didn't read all my previous replies, which I kindly invite you to do. 



> Yes, I treated him for trichomoniasis (canker) for 7 days with 50 mg of Metronidazole per day (2 doses of 25 mg each), as prescribed by an ornithologist veterinary that has helped us a lot with saving lots of birds in the past.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The dose for Metro is 50 mg once daily. Not in 2 doses. It often takes longer than 7 days to clear. As long as there are still symptoms, then you treat longer. It may take up to 2 weeks. Also, if the canker is resistant, then you may need to treat with 2 different drugs at the same time. Stopping too soon, or before the symptoms are gone, only helps to give the trich a chance to become more resistant to the drug. It just comes back stronger. If there were still symptoms then the canker was still there. It hadn't been cleared. 

Removing canker nodules can be very dangerous, as it can cause a bad bleed, and birds have bled to death. If absolutely no way to get food in, then may need to take the chance, but only as a last resort. If the nodules are ready to come off, then can get them off fairly easily, but if they aren't, then will bleed badly.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> The dose for Metro is 50 mg once daily. Not in 2 doses. It often takes longer than 7 days to clear. As long as there are still symptoms, then you treat longer. It may take up to 2 weeks. Also, if the canker is resistant, then you may need to treat with 2 different drugs at the same time. Stopping too soon, or before the symptoms are gone, only helps to give the trich a chance to become more resistant to the drug. It just comes back stronger. If there were still symptoms then the canker was still there. It hadn't been cleared.
> 
> Removing canker nodules can be very dangerous, as it can cause a bad bleed, and birds have bled to death. If absolutely no way to get food in, then may need to take the chance, but only as a last resort. If the nodules are ready to come off, then can get them off fairly easily, but if they aren't, then will bleed badly.


Yes, I have read in other places that 50mg of metro should be given once, not in two shots a day, but the vet recommended me to do this after consulting the pigeon. 

So I gave him 2 x 25 mg / day for 7 days. 

So far, all the nodules have come off easily, with minimum blood in sight. 

Unfortunately though, after clearing the big chunk that you've seen in the last photos, I have discovered this evening that the canker is growing back... 

I cleared it very easily, as it is the *spongy white one*, not the thick yellow bony one. 

I talked to the vet, who told me I should only give him an extra session of 2 x 50 mg/day, because his immune system is too weak to sustain so much antibiotic. 

Nonetheless, it's been 2 weeks since I stopped giving him the metro... time in which the remaining canker seemed to disappear and detach easily,
​ with the *surprise* that I had a couple of days ago, when it completely had covered a part of his cheek. Now, the poor guy has a hole in his lower jaw because of this f***ing disease. 

So, should I take the vet's advice and give him 2 x 50mg /day? 
I also have some diluted liquid Metro from the vet, in a 100ml medical bottle... it says 5mg/ml on it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The vet is wrong. His system is weak from the canker.............not the antibiotic. It wasn't given correctly, as it should be given in one dose daily. It hasn't come back. It was never cleared. He needs to be treated again for the canker for 7 to 10 days. If the symptoms are still there at that time, you keep treating. 
If after a week the symptoms are still present, then treat him with 2 different drugs for canker. One in the morning and one in the evening. 
Dividing doses isn't helping, and treating for 2 more times is only helping the trich to build an immunity to the drug. If he had been treated for longer, the trich would have been knocked down.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> The vet is wrong. His system is weak from the canker.............not the antibiotic. It wasn't given correctly, as it should be given in one dose daily. It hasn't come back. It was never cleared. He needs to be treated again for the canker for 7 to 10 days. If the symptoms are still there at that time, you keep treating.
> If after a week the symptoms are still present, then treat him with 2 different drugs for canker. One in the morning and one in the evening.
> Dividing doses isn't helping, and treating for 2 more times is only helping the trich to build an immunity to the drug. If he had been treated for longer, the trich would have been knocked down.


Ok, I trust you, so I started giving him metro again, 50mg per diem. Let's see how this pans out... Thank you!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What do you mean per diem?


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> What do you mean per diem?



I mean every 24 hours


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

*the pigeon is throwing up*

ok, so I gave him 50 mgs of metronidazole per day and the canker is almost completely gone... every day the size of it inside his mouth has been decreasing. 

the problem is that for the last 24 hours he has been vomiting everything I'm trying to feed him. Doesn't want to eat or drink on his own anymore so I force feed him with seeds: wheat, corn, millet, oats, linseed and some others from a dove mix I bought from the pet shop. 

Even now, after I finished giving him 30-40 seeds he went into his corner where he likes to stay, shook like crazy and then he started throwing everything up...

I'm thinking to give him a bit of garlic? I really don't know what to do anymore...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He may have a blockage in the crop from the canker. Also, both canker and Metro can make him vomit. Something easier on him like a baby bird formula or baby cereal that you mix with water. But one that doesn't contain milk products. I wouldn't give him garlic.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I totally agree with Jay here that the vet is wrong on how to dose metronidazole and also that it's weakening his system as it's the canker that's doing that and not the medication. You don't stop a course of antibiotics because it will weaken the system, by doing that you not only stop the disease from being irradiated but actually help the canker to build up resistance and come back with a vengeance. 
I am still nursing a recovering pigeon who was on antibiotics after a cat attack but the course finished too soon (ten days treatment) the infection returned and took out a large portion of her chest. I put her back on her original dose with a once a day dose of Baytril, not twice, and added 50mg once a day metronidazole. Her infection was so extensive that I wouldn't stop the antibiotics until all the infected debris could be removed and new skin growth appeared - she was on those meds and pain relief for FIVE WEEKS and all it did was help her to get better. Of course it will deplete the immune system but with good food, antibiotics and cage rest nursing he'll stand a chance, without he definitely won't make it.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

FredaH said:


> I totally agree with Jay here that the vet is wrong on how to dose metronidazole and also that it's weakening his system as it's the canker that's doing that and not the medication. You don't stop a course of antibiotics because it will weaken the system, by doing that you not only stop the disease from being irradiated but actually help the canker to build up resistance and come back with a vengeance.
> I am still nursing a recovering pigeon who was on antibiotics after a cat attack but the course finished too soon (ten days treatment) the infection returned and took out a large portion of her chest. I put her back on her original dose with a once a day dose of Baytril, not twice, and added 50mg once a day metronidazole. Her infection was so extensive that I wouldn't stop the antibiotics until all the infected debris could be removed and new skin growth appeared - she was on those meds and pain relief for FIVE WEEKS and all it did was help her to get better. Of course it will deplete the immune system but with good food, antibiotics and cage rest nursing he'll stand a chance, without he definitely won't make it.



guys, i can't believe it.
After 8 days of 50 mg of metro administered daily, in one dose, the pigeon was almost dead, vomiting, not eating, not even keeping his eyes opened while I was feeding him.

But the canker did disappear... almost. There was just one tiny bit of canker (1 mm thick, 4 mm long, inside the mouth) that sprouted daily and that seemed to stop developing at the end of day 8. 

So I stopped giving him the metro, because he couldn't even stay straight anymore, he was leaning on his tail not to fall back, he lost so much weight that I can see his chest bone fairly easily. 

So, 24 hours after I stopped the metro, he stopped vomiting and now, 3 days after that he is feeling better. 

The problem is the fu**ing canker appeared again.......... And if I start giving him Metro I'm afraid I will destroy his liver this time... Please keep in mind that it looked like it disappeared and the pigeon was as good as dead, not eating, vomiting...

I'm thinking of cleaning the canker up with methylene blue daily until he feels better and do something else, because the Metro doesn't seem to work anymore ( 

I'm sorry, I should have kept him on Metro the first time until it had completely killed the virus, but when I saw that the canker took a part of his cheek and fu**ed up his beak because of that, I stopped giving it to him and I'm afraid I only made the virus stronger that first time.

What should I do? (


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

Switch to a different nitroimidazole: carnidazole (Spartrix) and ronidazole are some of the safer ones. Secnidazole is supposed handle resistant strains better. This strain might be resistant to metro and the bird is clearly not handling it well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't stop treating as long as the canker is there. Some resistant canker needs to be treated with 2 meds at the same time to clear it. I have had to treat for 14 days to clear canker. The metro should be given after feeding, not on an empty crop. They are more likely to vomit on an empty crop. Also, if given a few drops of Pepto Bismol 30 min before feeding, then medicate. If you stop, it is just going to come back. That is what you did the first time. Now you have done it again. You keep helping the trich to become stronger. Carinidazole won't clear it alone. It may have worked along with the metro though. You need to treat with something or he will never clear it.
Also, you need to feed something easier to digest as I mentioned earlier. 
Pepto--Food--then medicine.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> You can't stop treating as long as the canker is there. Some resistant canker needs to be treated with 2 meds at the same time to clear it. I have had to treat for 14 days to clear canker. The metro should be given after feeding, not on an empty crop. They are more likely to vomit on an empty crop. Also, if given a few drops of Pepto Bismol 30 min before feeding, then medicate. If you stop, it is just going to come back. That is what you did the first time. Now you have done it again. You keep helping the trich to become stronger. Carinidazole won't clear it alone. It may have worked along with the metro though. You need to treat with something or he will never clear it.
> Also, you need to feed something easier to digest as I mentioned earlier.
> Pepto--Food--then medicine.


I've looked for Pepto Bismol and it doesn't exist in Romania 
Is this it? https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pepto-Bi...g-Upset-Stomach-Diarrhea-Relief-8-oz/10317154 
I think there is something similar here, though.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

bootface said:


> Switch to a different nitroimidazole: carnidazole (Spartrix) and ronidazole are some of the safer ones. Secnidazole is supposed handle resistant strains better. This strain might be resistant to metro and the bird is clearly not handling it well.


If I switch to Ronidazole or Carnidazole (Spartrix), how much should I give per day?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Carnidazole has never worked great for me. I only use that if I am giving it with something else as well.
The dosing will depend on what you get and the weight of the bird.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

*new problem: scissored beak*

Guys, the pigeon has completely recovered. No more canker, no more sickness. 
I went with it to another vet, who was also specialized in birds and asked him for another type of -nydazole. She gave me *spectinomycin *. At the end of the 10 day treatment the pigeon is performing fantastically. 

Now, I have another issue with it.
Because of the old canker, a part of the bird's right cheek is missing, which caused its beak to become scissored, the lower jaw being "pulled" by the hole in the cheek to the right. 
It started to eat more, although I still feed it once a day to help it with the food intake.
I gave it a deeper food tank so it can scoop up the seeds with the beak... but that's not a solution for the long run...
how will it survive out there when I set it free?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad he is better. Would not release him though until his beak is fixed. Someone more expert should answer soon about scissor beak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He probably won't be able to be released. He will need to eat from a deep dish to be able to scoop up the food. You won't be able to straighten the beak. If you can't keep him, then maybe could find a home for him. At least you got him through the canker.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

Jay3 said:


> He probably won't be able to be released. He will need to eat from a deep dish to be able to scoop up the food. You won't be able to straighten the beak. If you can't keep him, then maybe could find a home for him. At least you got him through the canker.


yeah, i'm really sorry for the poor soul  I've read about trimming and filing the forward section so I can reduce the distance between the mandible and the beak, but it seems a bit painful and i think it will grow back in time....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, the top beak will keep growing out and if he is in the wild, he would then be in the same predicament.


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## yapy (Jan 8, 2018)

*Doing a lot better!*

Hello, guys.
It's been 2 months since the last reply here.
The pigeon is doing great. Still living in my apartment 
Her beak is still scissored. I went and got some opinions from vets and I was thinking that maybe I can have something like a neck brace 3d printed and set somehow that it can hold her beak straight. 
Do you guys know anyone that has attempted this kind of stuff before?
I would love to talk to them and get an expert's opinion.

Thank you kindly,
G.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have seen things on the internet where they tried to fix scissored beaks. Not sure how well they work. Try googling it. Glad she is doing well.


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## cindysapphire (9 mo ago)

Jay3 said:


> The vet is wrong. His system is weak from the canker.............not the antibiotic. It wasn't given correctly, as it should be given in one dose daily. It hasn't come back. It was never cleared. He needs to be treated again for the canker for 7 to 10 days. If the symptoms are still there at that time, you keep treating.
> If after a week the symptoms are still present, then treat him with 2 different drugs for canker. One in the morning and one in the evening.
> Dividing doses isn't helping, and treating for 2 more times is only helping the trich to build an immunity to the drug. If he had been treated for longer, the trich would have been knocked down.


Absolutely spot on... vets know very, very little about birds.


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