# Wing boils



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

Do they ever heal? Or is the bird stuck with them the rest of its life.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You mean as in paratyphoid? Have you treated with Baytril? If so for how long at at what dosage?

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got a full grown one in the basement right now that's recovering from one of those although it never burst. I found him in my yard unable to fly anymore--he must have made it there with the last wing mobility he had. He's been on Baytril for about two weeks. I had to go on another trip and didn't want Lin to have to meter Baytril into him so I let her use mixed water. The bird didn't want to drink that so he got underdosed for a few days and now I've got him purely on Baytril down the throat twice a day. He's slowly getting better.

I also used a syringe to remove some of the fluid out of the swollen wing joint so that I could look at it under the microscope. I was surprised to find that it wasn't loaded with bacteria. I'll keep you posted on that one as things change. I also had to go somewhere this week (taught Lin to do it the right way) and now that I'm back I can tell that the swelling is on the way down, oh, so slowly.

The other one that I have in the basement with a boil that had burst is a squeaker. He's been on the stuff (he was nearly full grown) for a long time now and I expect it's time to take him off it. His elbow joint is enlarged and he hasn't been able to load that wing (can't fly) although I found this morning that he can flap a lot harder with it now. He may yet be able to fly although the book suggests that when they get it at that age they probably never will recover the joint integrity enough to fly.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 

I have never seen these kinds of things...

what are some other meds which would address Boils?

And can the meds be adminstered into the actual site itself ( via injection with a fine, fine Needle) in addition to an oral administration?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Is there a way you can show a close up picture so we can see what it looks like? It would be good for learning purposes.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The pictures of the foot are not real pleasant, and these are not the clearest of pictures, but you can certainly get an idea of how the boils look: http://www.rims.net/Paratyphoid 

It took a solid month of Baytril to clear these up. When the boils finally subsided there was a little pocket of loose skin left that also eventually went away.

The blue/purple coloration on the foot pictures is from my friend, Bart, trying to treat the boils with Blu-Kote .. 

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Terry,

Those are really "nasty" pictures...but certainly is a good example of symptoms of Paratyphoid, hope I never see it.

Thanks for sharing those...and so quickly, what fantastic service!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Phil,

I'm going on the likelihood that this is one form of paratyphoid. I think they're all the same basic strain, Salmonella Typhimurium variety Copenhagen, but even in what you'd think would be a small family they're still too many brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and (kissing) cousins. 

The upshot is that some of them cause the arthritic joints with the associated boils, some cause the CNS (central nervous system) signs resembling PMV and some just mess with the intestines complete with diarrhea. 

That said, treating for a wing boil is the same as treating for paratyphoid systemically, preferably with Baytril (15 mg pure medicine/kg of bird) and massive probiotics. The probiotics are not actually being given to replace the ones killed by the antibiotics--rather, they're being sent in to eat the Salmonella colony that's in the gut. The Baytril will take care of the roving Salmonella in the body. 

If this were a real young nestling and you didn't want to badly stunt his growth, you'd probably use the Bactrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) while he was in the growing phase and switch to Baytril when you thought he was big enough to be okay. That's because Baytril really does mess with bone growth during the formative period. I wouldn't inject any meds into the boil because it'd likely do more harm than good. Many injectibles will necrose some muscle tissue anyway and a delicate mechanical structure like an elbow could be effectively destroyed by something like that.

The only thing we can do is to quarantine the bird for a lot longer than we usually would and rabidly hope that it can be released back into the wild because we're none too happy at the prospect of introducing it to our loft even though they've had the shots. The squeaker may never be able to fly well enough to go to the wild so I'm really in a quandary on that one.

Pidgey


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*History*

She is a WOE Tumbler. She had this last year and recieved treatment. And became healthy. This year she got a wing boil. Last year it was walking diffculty. She is away from the flock. Just got in and did a heavy loft cleaning and desinfecting. No one esle is showing. Just put them though pre meding for breeding. Was surpised this came up again. Is this going to be reaccuring?


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Treatment*

When I 1st found the wing boil I put her on 500 mgs. 3xs a day. Until today. I went to Rena and she gave me some Baytril. So I started her on Bay 2xs a day. Thank you, Rena.  Those Amoxicillcin capasules are like horse tablets to pigeons.  I had to wet them to get them down the pigeon throat. Felt bad everytime I did it. Hope this does the trick.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Debbie,

I'm glad Rena gave you some Baytril .. that's the one for Paratyphoid, and it can take a long course of the drug to finally get it whipped .. up to a month in my experience.

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

upcd said:


> ...Those Amoxicillcin capasules are like horse tablets to pigeons.  I had to wet them to get them down the pigeon throat. Felt bad everytime I did it. Hope this does the trick.


I keep a small dropper bottle of olive oil near where I pill the birds and put a tiny amount on the pill to help ease things. If any oil ends up on the outside of their face, wipe it off carefully so feathers and seeds don't stick.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Wow, I do the same. I will dip a large capsule in olive oil and it makes it so much easier to get it to slide right down the back of the throat, a little olive oil goes a long way!

I don't have the problem with the little soft gel garlic caps. I can get them down without even trying, it's like second nature.LOL


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Please see thread on Paratyphoid, if you haven't already

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9505


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Treatment*

Is that 1 month of baytril?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Debbie, .. that's the one for Paratyphoid, and it can take a long course of the drug to finally get it whipped .. up to a month in my experience.
> Terry


*Hi Debbie,

...looks like that is the case.*


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*If*

I run out of Baytril can I use other antibotics?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

upcd said:


> I run out of Baytril can I use other antibotics?


No, if it's salmonella, then you need the Baytril. Cipro will work .. human
version of Baytril.

Terry


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Ok*

I will work something out.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Follow up*

The wing boil is reducing after faithful baytril treatments. Will continue treatments. Pigeon is eatting but a little thin. Any ideas?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Debbie,

I'm glad the Baytril is helping with the paratyphoid. Perhaps you can offer some extra helpings of more fattening food like safflower or perhaps some crumbles of dry puppy or kitten chow ??

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Debbie, glad you are seeing improvement with this bird! You mentioned that she is thin - does she have any trouble eating? You mentioned your pre-breeding meds - do you usually treat for canker? I just wondered if perhaps the stress of molting triggered an acute form of the paratyphoid and the trichomonas would take advantage of a weakened system. Just a thought.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Help*

Rena gave me some Vit/Elctrolite, Probotic for the water. I will crumble some dogfood and catfood. I have not treated her for canker yet. I thought we should get thru one thing before going on. Will check her crop to see if she is filling up. Poops look nice.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Healing*

When boil is gone. Will the joint be like it was? Or will it feel different?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

upcd said:


> When boil is gone. Will the joint be like it was? Or will it feel different?


The joint should be and feel normal though there may be a small, deflated, little flap of skin left from the boil. If there is a little flap of skin, it will self resolve in a short time.

Terry


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Joint*

the joint doesn't have a ball. But it feels different like as if the wing had been broken and healed. Like bone formed around it. Should I continue treatment? Or watch and wait?


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*What Happened*

Her wing boil heal. She still seem thin. I did all I could for her. so I let her live on the ground in the loft. Poor thing couldn't fly. So her mate had to come down to visit her or I had to put her up in the nest. They of cousre had the highest nest. I was thinking to myself this sad. I hope things change. To my surprise I found her in her nest. I had not put her there. So I went and ask the kids if they had put her there. They said they hadn't. She is flying or jumping nest to nest to get to her nest. Smart girl.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeons are wonderful for self-motivated physical therapy. This is probably due to the fact that they don't watch TV (much). As to whether the joint resolves, you never can tell until the day comes when they start flying successfully. It may be possible that a little hop up to a nestbox can be possible as it only takes a few wingbeats whereas flying outside for an extended session will cause enough ache to not be worth it. Only time will tell.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Upcd,

How long did you give the Baytril? I am asking because Squidget is on Baytril now and has been for 3 and a half weeks. His wing boils are shrinking, but it does feel as tho the joint is enlarged and hard. I have enough Baytril for one more week, for a total of 4 and one half weeks. Was wondering if I will need more and if it is safe to keep giving it to him?

Thanks 
Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Denise, 

If you'll remember in our earlier discussions, it can take a month or more to resolve those. As to what the joints are like in the aftermath, it's tough to say without having a good one to compare it with--it's actually unusual to have more than one joint (leg or wing) affected at the same time.

It's probably easiest to tell from how they hold the wings. If they droop a bit at the actual shoulder, it's not a particularly good sign as far as flying goes. I've got one in the loft right now that I found with a wing boil that droops the bad shoulder a bit and he really can't fly well at all. I expect it could be painful for him although he does use it. I'm sure that if you explained how much less pain it would be if it were amputated, he'd wing-flip you with it and walk off in disgust.

Anyhow, he does have an enlarged joint but you can only tell that from comparing it to the good side. The enlarged joint is definitely hard and feels like normal bone--it's just bigger than it should be.

Pidgey


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you Pidgy!

One more question tho! Should I order more Baytril now, will I need more? How will I know when to stop Baytril!

OOps! 3 Questions! Sorry!

Denise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's a bad idea to run out if the case isn't resolved by then. Frankly, it's a good idea to go a week or two BEYOND the last visible clinical symptom so that might mean that you need to order more right now but don't bother with the added expense of overnight shipping.

Pidgey


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Denise*

I used baytril for 1 month. And the bird got thin near the end. Joint is not normal, but it is better than a big old balloon.LOL I think she was happy to be return to the flock even as a nonflying bird. So she started putting on wieght and got stronger. Her joint injuy was in the wing elbow. I am using ACV in the water as a preventive. How is your bird doing?


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi Upcd,

Squidget is doing better, the boils seem to be gone or almost! It is like you said, a hard thickened joint! He gained a very small amount of weight after a week on Baytril, but is still very skinny and fails to gain since!

Denise


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Denise*

Try feeding high protien Feed and pellets or cat and dog food dry and crushed up. Start bird on Proboitic and Vitinims with electrolytes in the water along with treatment. After baytril treatment is over he will gain his weight back. Where was his injury?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Denise, if it were me I would reorder the Baytril to have it on hand even if for right now you are deciding to stop using it. Better to have some on hand.

As to the weight. We have used a product called Nutrical which is really for dogs (isn't everything) to help them increase their caloric intake. When we have a little guy that is very thin, I squeeze about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of this product into the formula and mix. It does help. I believe it is available at most pet stores, like Pet Smart. It comes in a 4.25 oz tube and my package describes it as a high calorie palatable dietary supplement for dogs and cats. It has a lot of vitamins in it also. Package says it provides added source of energy, also.

Maggie


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