# bloated pigeon neck crop?



## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

i just joined this forum because a few days ago i found a baby pigeon the street that was very close to being run over until i took him home
i have had him for over a week and have been feeding him bread and water
today his neck (crop)is very boated..hes running around actively.

how did this happen and how it be fixed?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You will starve him to death and or cause malnittition issues on 'bread and water'...there is not enough nutritional value there to sustain a Bird.


Images of the little Pigeon? And the Neck-Crop bloating?

Was the Neck this way when you found him? Or, did it develp since?



Phil
Lv


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

I don't have a pic but I will get one in a few minutes...its so bloated that his head is tilted. Will it go away?


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

here are some pictures


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might actually be an embolism. Does that one wing hang down funny all of the time? There's actually some funny engineering on them such that it's possible for a wing injury to cause some air to leak out under the skin where it may make a bubble under the wing and up into the neck. Can you take some pictures from the side?

Pidgey


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

this is the best i can do...hes moving around a lot.
yes his 1 feather does hang funny..but slightly...hes gettign a little puffy now...
and i didnt find him liek this..he became like this today


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Maybe some more images, showing side views, front view.

You say he is running around...but in the image shown, he is laying to one side.


Is he active? Or, just lays around?


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

cam just ran out of battery...but as you can see he is bloated around the neck
hes very active running around..had trouble getting him to stay still
the image that looks like he is laying down..hes not..i had to pin him down. lol

what causes bloating like that? are there different types of bloating?


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

anything? any other info to control the swelling?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi marvelous, 



It might just be a lot of 'bread' which has not passed.

Please, no more 'bread'..!


Just feel his Crop gently - what does it feel like?


Doughy?


Full of Water?


Or?


Where are you located?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Marv...this may be of help to you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/crop-full-of-air-32652.html

I suppose if it goes down, then it might have been the bread which now digested and passed. But if it maintains or enlarges, I'd imagine it air in there and needs some attention.

Do switch him/her over to some sorta seed mix as soon as you get the chance, too.

Thanks for posting. Don't panic, I think it'll be OK.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kmarvelous,


How many poops is he making every 24 Hours?

& Would you post some good close ups of the freshest poops?


Phil
Lv


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

I have felt the crop...feels like air. 
I will stop the bread


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Two reasons: 1.) inflated air sacs. Some people just prick it like a balloon with needle. 2.) fungal infection on the crop. Use anti-fungal drugs. You can also give the bird vinegar water (1 tablespoon per gallon) to drink. If you can smell stench on the bird's breath, then it is fungal.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi marvelous, 



Once again -


How many poops is he making every 24 Hours?

& 


Would you post some good close ups of the freshest poops?


Phil
Lv


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm not to sure if I can pop the bubble...I'm aafraid it may do damaage if I don't do it right... He poops regulalry. Its yellowish white..he poops like 5x in an hour


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi marvelous, 


DO NOT "POP" ANYTHING.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO "POP" ANYTHING WHATSOEVER IN ANY WHATEVER.

We need more information in order to guide you correctly with this please.


Lets just take things slowly and methodically, answer questions thoroughly, if I or someone else ask you three questions in a post to you, please answer all three in your reply.


Questions for now -


1 ) May we please have some good, close up images of some fresh poops?


2 ) Where are you located?


3 ) Can you drive or go places to obtain supplies?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

ok im not popping anything.
i didnt feel comfortable doing that at all!
im NY
i can drive to get supplies yes
and i can get pics shortly about the poop


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Are you in NYC ? Or another city/town ?

Does his/her breath smell foul ?


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

nyc
i dont think his breath is foul
i will double check


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

just wanted to say thanks to all the replies here
i am a parakeet owner and i have taken care of them most of my life.
seeing this baby pigeon ...taking him in..well it'd be a crime not too..and there are a lot of cruel ppl out there tha just like to abuse animals..so i figure id take this guy..take care of him until he is ready then set him free.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

NYC. Try calling these folks...call the hotline; don't bother sending an e-mail:

http://nycprc.org/

They can at least give you their 2 cents if not recommend a vet that can have a look at your pal for cheap....


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

what can i feed him? i will go to a pet shop later and look for any kind of pigeon or young pigeon food.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

ok just to double check
his sack is full of air. not food
its like a balloon and its nto getting better

what can i do? what can i find at home to help him??


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

so more images










his poop


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

i dont think he will make it


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Poor baby! As RodSD has already mentioned it sounds like a ruptured air sac, please look at *this link *which has photos and describes the symptoms, how the skin would look and feel etc and how it can be fixed.

The site owner Terry would be able to talk you through the procedure for correcting it if you need guidance.

.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

thank you!!!


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

ok it looks like a ruptured air sac and i will attempt to prick the bubble...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have e-mailed you, if you need someone to guide you through it Dee at Wing and a Prayer could probably do it through Facebook Chat. I have also asked TAWhateley and Dobato to have a look at this thread.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi marvelous,




PLEASE DO NOT "POP" ANYTHING.


This is not a 'ruptured Air Sac'.

It is Canker, and, either a Yeast or Candida condition in the Crop...either of which can cause a blocked or non-passing or slowly passing Crop...and, when both are present, even more so.

Bread was a really bad idea, please never do that again for any Species of Bird.


Your youngster needs medicines for treating Canker, and, for treating Yeasts/Candida - 


The latter illnesss/condition will be making Gas in the Crop which inflate the Crop.


How much old 'bread' is still in the Crop? Can you tell? By feeling?


Metronidazole for Canker


Medistatin for Yeast/Candida infection.


Supply supplimental Warmth.


Get those two Meds, and check back with us.


Any Pigeon supply will have them, or, any Avian Vet would have them.


Your Youngster needs these "now", no delays.


No more "bread' no food of any sort now untill his Crop is passing and has passed whatever is still in it.


Tepid 'ACV-Water' would be good, for his supervised drinking, so long as it is not allowed to accumulate into a non passing Crop.


ACV-Water is three Tablespoons of raw, unfiltered, Organic, Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of Water.


Appropriate Liquid Foods, would be permissible if his Crop will pass LIquids.


Please ask what to make those from before attempting it.


Can you safely Tube Feed? Do you have experience in that from the Parakeets?





Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

marvelous80 said:


> ok just to double check
> his sack is full of air. not food
> its like a balloon and its nto getting better


You are the one who has this bird, so you are in the best position to see and feel what is going on. A crop full of air suggests indeed an airsac problem.

I have a pigeon who had a blocked crop outlet earlier this year, and I can only say it looked entirely different to your pigeon. The crop was very 'fat' but it was lumpy, obviously had some food in and was practically touching the floor. In that case, it was 'slow crop', not canker, and I did not give her _any_ kind of food for 24 hours. I did give her ACV water, and that may have helped. The problem resolved by the following day. A non-emptying crop does not necessarily indicate canker anyway - it can, but equally it may not.

I suggest a further opinion on this, from someone (like those suggested) who will have had both possibilities under their care in the past. Personally, I would not care to make a definite statement on this case from a photo.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

There are no 'Air Sacs' centered, symetrical,, and front.

A Crop full of 'Air' is either swallowed Air, or, Gasses from fermentation and blockage further down, or both, and or a Crop Lining, which is infected and thickened with Candida and is no longer able to relax into a flaccid or deflated-appearence.


While having asked three times now for good close up images of the poops, none have been given.


In the background of the last image of the Pigeon, one sees tiny amounts of either bile or fecal mater, and, though still small, wider saturating deposits of Urates which are typical of Canker.


A ruptured Air Sac would inflate the Skin of the Neck, and, not the Crop.

Signs of Canker, and of Candida/Yeast infection in the upper GI, to me anyway, would recommend the OP seek the appropriate meds, or, appeal to a Piugeon savvy Vet as absolutely soon as possible, or they will loose this little Pigeon very soon.



Get the Crop conditionm ammended, begin rehydration with appropriate solutions, and, maintain the medical regimin while the Bird is for some days on a 'Liquid Diet'.


Then, onto small, whole Seeds.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

hey guys....

i had put pics of the poop...its the best pics i could take
i also talked to a lady by the name of dee emmet who is an avian specialist that i was reffered to here

the pigeon is doing better
the sac is not full of food...it is full of air..right under his neck

i did attempt to pop the sack...and so far it has worked...it has deflated..it was dangerous but dee walked me through the procedure.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Sounds good so far. 

Dee knows what she's talking about, but that doesn't mean it's easy for the person who has to do the hands on work.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi marvelous, 



And, his Canker and probable Yeast or Candida issues?


I know of no instance ever, anyway, where it does any good to 'pop' an Air bubble under the Bird's skin, which is resulting from a ruptured Air Sac.


I have had many Babys who had fallen hard from greight heights who had ruptured Air Sacs, and, never once did I ever 'pop' any of them, and, all resolved on their own without incident, within a week.

An inflated Crop is not an Air Bubbe under the Skin from a ruptured Air Sac, anyway, it is an entirely different thing.

No instance of ruptured Air Sacs I have ever heard of or seen woiuld be confused with an inflated Crop...unless a person knew nothing and was merely asserting the one thing they had heard of, to insist it could only be an Air Sac issue.


Inflated Crops occur from entirely different causes.



Youngsters who show the kinds of Urates yours is, who remain untreated for Canker, die in a few days.


What did 'dee emmet' have to say about the Canker/Trichomona infection aspect?



Phil
Lv


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

hey pdpbison 

i have been reading and listening to your advice...
the thing is it is hard to determine what excatly it is..
the best assumption so far has been a ruptured air sack and so far he is better,,,
i will feed and give the water you have advised

thanks for the info


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I give up.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The poster said that there is no mouth smell so we can rule out yeast/fungal infection. I still think it is a ruptured air sacs and not a crop full of air. There are ruptured air sacs that are minor that don't need our intervention and they heal themselves. Obviously to cover bases the poster can also give fungal drugs.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

John_D said:


> Sounds good so far.
> 
> Dee knows what she's talking about, but that doesn't mean it's easy for the person who has to do the hands on work.


I agree...I think we have to give Marv some credit here. I have not encountered this condition myself, but if after reading all of the info he has been provided with, it appears that a needle to the 'balloon' to relieve the condition seems to be working...I am wondering why others are insisting it's the wrong thing to do ?????

Also....the condition seemed far worse than it did 24 hours ago, so it's fair to say that leaving it alone was a questionable tactic in this particular pigeon's instance.

If the condition was ever-worsening and now it is in check.....then it would seem to me to be the right direction to go (to deal with the immediate, acute situation of getting that balloon to reverse itself). The links provided and the step-by-step which Marv got from Dee, one-on-one...seems to have alleviated the situation.....

Marv, sounds like you have made a good decision there. Pretty damn good job for a novice, I must say. There certainly may be other medical issues to deal with, but you have done the right thing given the situation and the moment.

Do keep us posted.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Might actually be an embolism. Does that one wing hang down funny all of the time? There's actually some funny engineering on them such that it's possible for a wing injury to cause some air to leak out under the skin where it may make a bubble under the wing and up into the neck. Can you take some pictures from the side?
> 
> Pidgey


I'm going to refer to the post that I made earlier. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to get back on later after you got the pictures from the side--yes, that's an "embolism" in which slightly pressurized air from the bird's lung and pneumatic system has begun leaking out under the skin. While it can look similar to gas in the crop, it's not--it's literally an air-filled blister under the skin. Yes, punching some kind of small hole is the general remedy, but the original leak has to fix itself as well (has to heal).

What I think I saw in the first pictures is damage to the bird's right wing, and that's one spot that air can leak out of the pneumatic system and start accumulating under the skin. Sometimes they end up with big bubbles under the wings and whatnot. Hopefully, this will all right itself soon enough, but the bird's obviously going to have to get food and water (don't think the gastrointestinal tract is actually affected here but don't have any evidence one way or the other) but I haven't read all of the posts.

I had one bird in the loft once that apparently had some injury and his entire neck inflated all the way around such that his head was held extremely high. He couldn't eat or drink until I popped it and milked the air out. It did it a couple more times over the next week and then never did it again.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Still would be a good idea I think to go over things to make sure we are certain of all the issues going on. Marvelous, if you could post up a few photos of this little guy's fresh droppings, it will help us get a better idea of what is going on internally with him (clear, well lit, close-ups), like in the post, if possible:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=527783&postcount=96

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi marvelous, 



What I was trying to get at, is to consider the whole Bird and to make and consider various critical observations, rather than becoming fixated and rallying everyone ill informed else to being compulsive and fixated about one superifical symptom, to the exclusion of all else, as if it were "the" problem, or in this case, even a significant problem at all, compared to the other things going on.


This little youngster has multiple problems/issues and in my opinion has Canker in his system, and by now possibly some Bacterial and or Yeast infections also, which is by now likely advanced to where you will not have much time left if you are to save him.


Nor is it clear that a sudden diet from 'bread' and water' for a week, to now, of any sort of Seeds, would even pass his Crop at this point.


It is not even clear how well Liquids would pass at this point.


Seeds now could clog him up and compolicate an already bad enough situation.


A Liquid nutriment diet for a few days, along with appropriate meds, would be the most prudent recourse possible at this point.





Groundling 'Squeakers' such as he was when you foind him, are usually on the Ground or in a Roadway, because the Parents had ceased feeding them, because the parents sensed an incipient or developing illness, and in their view, they will not waste the resourses on a Baby who is doomed.


This is why most ground found Babys or youngsters are on the ground - because they finally in desperation, climbed out and or fell however far, from the Nest, and wandered or walked however far untill collapsing or stopping, since their parents had ceased feeding them and they have been dehydrated and starving and feeling frantic and frustrated about it.


Had the poops ever been any different than they are now?


In terms of how many a day, and, their appearence?


This is a very important question.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Mary,

Thanks for the update, I was in bed last night when you posted but I knew that you were in capable hands. While it is deflated it will be more comfortable and should be able to eat and drink although it might need a little help there. 

As Pidgey mentioned, the air sac itself will need time to heal, so if it continues to leak while it is healing you will probably have to do the precedure again, this is not inevitable so take that one step at a time.

I have to ditto what Jaye said. You did a damn good job here. 

And a BIG thanks to Dee! She is a member of this forum where she is OwlMomma, but as you will probably see from her Wing and a Prayer updates on FB she is snowed under with patients despite the fact that the baby bird season is past, so doesn't post here!

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Dobato posted a link to *this video* on helping a pigeon with a torn air sac some time ago. I am reposting the link here in case anybody else needs guidance in future.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That video kinda' cracked me up... that little guy is quite a trooper, he didn't fight one bit, did he? Didn't seem to have the slightest bit of concern... shoot, you'd have thought that he was getting paid as an actor for the part!

Some editorial about the video, though: it's a bit misleading when they say that they want to get the needle in the "crop area"... the air is actually not in the crop--it's in under the skin and outside the crop. Usually, the skin is held to the inner structures by fascia and getting embolisms like this that are greatly inflated tends to actually pull the various webs of fascia apart. The fascia will eventually repair itself, but it's not instantaneous upon deflation. The actual "air sac" leak can be in various places and it can occur as a consequence of an infection inside that rots a hole through. Canker CAN do that, however in this case I would guess trauma based on how that one wing looks limp--that's what worries me the most.

Pidgey


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

being a "vet" over the internet is not always so easy.. the bird should be looked at by a real vet in person.. that way there is not squabbling..(no pun intended)..over who guesses what it may be.. let us know what the vet says and treatment he advises.. good luck..


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

A vet is always the best course of action. Of course, the above advice could apply to 95% of the threads on this Forum...in which case there'd be no need for the found/injured section of the Forum at all.

But, as is the reality....sometimes we have to intervene sans vet. Marv...did NYC Rescue get back to you ? They usually reply w/i 12 hours.

I would agree with many above...you have taken care of the most immediate situation. But this isn't over.

I would strongly suggest, if you cannot get him/her to a vet in next 24 hours, that you begin to administer antibiotic. I think Metronidazole would be a safe bet. You can buy it at a fish/aquarium store, often under the name FishZole. There are other brands, just make sure it's 100% Metronidazole with no other additives.

Also, Foy's Pigeon Supply of Jedd's (both online) have it; but you would need to express ship it so I would call as opposed to using their online ordering forms.

Also, I would back it with a second antibiotic such as Triple-Sulpha (Sulfadiazine); also often available at Fish stores.

Whether the air sac leak/rupture was caused by an impact injury or by illness (could'a been either)....an antibiotic would be a wise course of action to stave off any infections which may have developed. 

*Pigeons (and almost all birds in general ) cannot "fight off" infections the way mammals can. * They just go into a decline...sometimes slow but much more often very swift...to the degree where after a certain window of opportunity.....antibiotics administered too late cannot turn things around. Now that the air bubble is under control, get him/her started on meds ASAP, or get to a vet for a prescription and exam.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

i know the vet is best course of action as always...but i do not have the fincial means at the moment..i know it sounds cruel..but the next best theing i can do is get advice on here.
i saw the video with air sac..my bird has the exact same thing...i did deflate the sac..but in inflates after a while
his poop is getting greener again? is it getting better.
i will take better pics in a little bit


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

did i miss where you live? many time's wildlife rehabilitators rehab pigeons also, and will be able to handle the piji's issues where are you located?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You need to deflate it when it reinflates. Have a read of Pidgey's posts.

Is it managing to feed itself, or are you hand feeding?

Cynthia


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm in ny. He's eating on his own and hand feeding. He gets more excited when I hand feed


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Feefo (Cynthia) just posted this on my Facebook wall. Marvelous80, I live in NYC. I would be happy to take this pigeon to my vet tomorrow, if you want. He is an avian specialist, and has much experience with pigeons. Please let me know as soon as possible, so I can make an appointment with him. My vet is generous and kind and I'll pay whatever the charges are. You may save a life and spare yourself some grief and guilt. I've been through it many times. But, if the pigeon is doing better, and you feel that he is going to be OK, then perhaps we should wait and see how things go.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In retrospect, I suppose that in those first pictures of the little guy, he could be extending that one wing forward a little bit in excitement at the prospect of being fed (they often do that) and that nothing's wrong with the wing. However, I'd like to see more pictures from the side where he's more or less just sitting still and not going berserk. Can we getcha' to take and post one or two like that?

Pidgey


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

sorry about he delayed replies...he seeemd to be getting better,,,but he keeps inflating...and this time..when i prick a small hole..the air does not leave like it did...
as for him moving around..and the wing..its all the excitement..i believe the wing is ok.

the crop area still fills with air.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

i personally think,u shud take the young one to a vet,its not good,to keep pricking a hole,even if it does not harm it directly,it may cause serious infection to set in,which can turn into septicemia in a few days time.......so please take the little one to a vet...!!!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Feefo (Cynthia) just posted this on my Facebook wall. Marvelous80, I live in NYC. I would be happy to take this pigeon to my vet tomorrow, if you want. He is an avian specialist, and has much experience with pigeons. Please let me know as soon as possible, so I can make an appointment with him. My vet is generous and kind and I'll pay whatever the charges are. You may save a life and spare yourself some grief and guilt. I've been through it many times. But, if the pigeon is doing better, and you feel that he is going to be OK, then perhaps we should wait and see how things go.


Please take up Ante's offer of help, he and his vet are trustworthy, the pigeon couldn't do better!

Cynthia


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I think a vet is the best idea....if the pin-pricking is now not having the same results as earlier, this seems to be getting beyond home-remedies.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

the vet is a great idea...i have not forgotten about the offer.
good news? he is better...the swelling is now gone... he is eating crushed bird seed...
he is more lively and looks like he will be alright!!!

i will update if anything changes
everyone on here has been very thoughtful and insightful!! 
i really appreciate everything..you guys have helped a lot!!!!


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

ok another update...the air bubble under him is gone...i just notice an air bubble under his wing. this appeared today. this helps reinforce the air sack theory.
a lot of people say if it ruptures it appears under the wing.
i will not pop this one.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. Glad to hear he is eating and alert. I would still really recommend a vet visit. As has been noted before in this thread, sac ruptures can be caused by underlying illnesses/conditions.

Thanks for the update.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

It is good to know the good news. Lots of people may have an experience just like yours so they have insights to share. I did. Continue observing the bird.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Lots of people may have an experience just like yours so they have insights to share. I did.


I agree. Reading up on it, as I do, is fine when there is no other help available but it is those that have hands-on experience that really know what it feels like to deal with the problem, what can go well and what (if applicable) can go wrong.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Marvelous,

I think beyond the immediate question of how to treat the likely ruptured air sac is an equally important one: What are your plans for the bird once she is old enough to be independent? If at all possible, ideally she should be raised in a way that would allow her to be released back to her wild life. This would mean being around other pigeons and gradually being acclimated to an outdoor environment. I am guessing you don't have the resources to do this, so this is another reason taking Ante up on his offer would be a good idea.

Jennifer


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

i have thought of how to send back to the wild... there a few local parks with pigeons and my hope is to see when he is ready to go...he is not matured yet.
these parks have dozens of wild pigeons..i think it would good place to start


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Marvelous,

If you want the bird to have a good chance of survival, you can't just release a bird that you'd had since babyhood into a wild flock (adults are different). 

Jennifer


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No. You'd have to do a soft release on the bird, and hope for the best. Can't just turn 'em lose.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

and raising a single piji pretty means in my book that she probably shouldn't be released at all.
they imprint sooo much, i would either consider keeping her or again and i'm sorry to harp on the rehabber thing but you might be able to find one that has others she could be wintered over with so she will learn she is a bird and might be able to be released


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would wait till spring if she seems to be wild acting. .. if she acts more like a pet and likes your company I would keep her.. it is hard to beat food and fresh water and a longer life..


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I don't mean to jump in here and interrupt the current train of thought...because you are all correct. Marv, there is a method called "soft release" which needs to be implemented before you can release a juvenile Pigeon. Read up on it a bit or PM me about it.

My more immediate concern is that the balloon-popping remedy has done what it can, but this lil' fella needs more treatment now than just supportive care. You put out the immediate fire, but the embers are still hot.
Any progress on a vet ?

I really think this is a necessary next step.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If, down the road she is going to be released, than Altgirls idea of a rehabber with other pigeons is a good one. She would learn how to be a pigeon, and could be released with the other birds. This makes her chances of survival much better than being released by herself.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

i def dont plan to release him alone...with a group a pigeons if necessary..and i am tempted to keep him...he is quite attached here and runs wherever i go to..picking at my feet! lol

i live in apt so its hard to have him there...if i had a back yard id keep him there.

when the time comes i will ask on more details on a soft release


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

piji's make great pets, really much easier than a parrot , plus you won't have to give blood like i do all the time with parrots!
they are good n don't chew the wood work, wires, computer, stairs and fingers.
i have a crippled indoor feral piji and she is the sweetest thing.
you just need a different kind of cage for them, she will love to hang out with you


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Marv, if this bird is going to be releaseable, the best time for him to socialize with other pigeons is right now, not just "when the time comes." If he is being raised in isolation (as he is now), he is going to identify more with humans than other pigeons and will lack the survival skills he needs for life outside.

Also, when you say you'll release him "with a group of pigeons if necessary," I am assuming you mean simply release him into a group of pigeons who are already outside. What needs to happen to give this bird the best chance of survival is for him to socialize with other birds so that he can learn how to be a pigeon *before* he gets released. 

I know you have grown attached to this bird, but given all of the above and the fact that this bird has an ongoing medical issue, I think the thing to ask yourself is what is in this bird's best interest. Ante has generously offered to take this bird in and can not only get the bird treated medically but prepare him for a successful life in the wild.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

for the moment the bird is still with me and looks like hes a long a way from being released. i dont plan on just leaving him out and flying around.
i will be back on her to get more info on that.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

jenfer said it well, it was the point i was trying to get across also, i think it's just fine if you want to keep him, but if you want him to be a free bird you need to make the decision now and let someone else take over his care.
if you go to my web page down in my signature, you can read a story about an experience i had with an imprinted seagull that i was sooo in love with, i did everything wrong back then, i still cry when i think about her. you can click on sams story
i wish i knew then what i know now, pigeons, doves and waterfowl imprint sooo heavily.
releasing him when he is so imprinted will put him in great danger because he will not fear humans and will look to them for food, and companionship
we all know how cruel humans can be, and he will walk/fly trustingly right up to someone who will kill, hurt, torture, or use him as bait for a dog.
just trying to get you to look ahead and like i said if you want to keep him as a pet i think that's great, they are wonderful loving pets especially when you hand raise them


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Cannot say I completely agree with the notion that if he wants to do a release he needs to turn the Pigeon over to someone else now.

I do believe the bird needs a vet appointment now.

BUT...it isn't very difficult for a newbie to do a proper 'soft release' regimen if they have read up on it. I also think that a pigeon can remain in one's care for several weeks and still be a good candidate for soft release. So I don't feel it's quite as black-and-white, time-to-decide-now-ish as some are suggesting.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

just giving some updates on my guy
hes doing well!
hes grown very attached here and is following me wherever i go in the house.
he also goes crazy unless he sitting next to me..hes getting very attached now!


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

marvelous80 said:


> hes grown very attached here and is following me wherever i go in the house.
> he also goes crazy unless he sitting next to me..hes getting very attached now!


You say this like it's a good thing? It's not if you plan to release him (and you already said you can't keep him).


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

just another update..hes doing well..he has grown up and he looks healthy...no more bubble
now he has spread his wings and he is practicing to fly
however...the time is coming for him to be slowly to be released into the wild...im nto sure how it can be done...i will ask in the proper forum...
he is getting attached more and more and seems to have gotten used to his surroundings...
i hope that he will be able to go out in the wild..


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I think I mentioned back a while ago in this thread about *"Soft Release"* - this is the method you must use to release him back.

Now, as Jenfer mentions, if he is becoming attached to you...this MAY or MAY NOT work.

But the good thing about the Soft Relese regimen is that it will inform you as to whether he can be successfully released or not.

It basically involves acclimating him to a feral flock, for about 10-15 mins. a day for about 7-10 days. He will either 'catch on' and want to be released and show it...or he will not show the telltale signs of wanting to join the flock, so therefore CANNOT be released.

PM me for the specifics. It is pretty easy, really. But you just have to really do it correctly... or it will be for naught.

Glad to hear he is strong and healthy, BTW.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Frankly, I'd be concerned about releasing him. He was raised in isolation, it's winter now, and there are predators like raptors around. He needs to first learn to identify with other pigeons, learn how to avoid danger, learn how to find food.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

i think i will wait when the weather gets better...i think he can hang here for a while


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

here he is by the way....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1468


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

A cutie ! He looks good...you have done an excellent job, really.

Still too young for a release although it's good you are thinking about it. I DO agree, if the winter is bad there, wait until it breaks for warmer weather.

But I would say you can probably start some Soft Release sessions with him in a couple of weeks. Eve if it is just twice a week. Just to see how he/she responds. This, again, providing the weather isn't miserable out.

As the concern has been noted above...it's hard to say whether this young one will be a good candidate for release or whether he/she has become too bonded to you, & humans. But the acclimation process gives you a good indication of that, once you begin it.....


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

thanks!
as the days pass..he is becoming more and more like a pigeon...he is slowly avoiding humans and walks on the ground looking for food. he is starting to fly but not in great distances yet. he still has some time until he can be released. hes staying here for awhile anyway. big storm coming!!


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

just an update..hes doing very well and it may be time for him to hit the wild..but not right away. too cold out there


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yup, I agree..... wait until it warms up a bit and then begin the Soft Release regimen. Glad to hear he is flourishing....you have done a really good job !


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## OwlMomma (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi Marvelous, lovely to see that Pidge is doing so well. Hats off to you, you did a fab job of fixing him,

Dee x


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Great job! Let it warm up before soft releasing though, and make sure he is ready.


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## fantaillover100 (Jan 21, 2011)

You sure did help this little pigeon, good on you.
Hope he goes well


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## g-pigeon (Aug 24, 2010)

I think after the great job and all the time and effort you have put into this lucky bird you should keep it.it will live a much longer and easier life with you.it would truly be a shame if you release it and a bop or cat gets to it. Good luck


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It is one of those unanswerable questions. Certainly, keeping a rescued Feral will pretty much assure it lives a longer and likely safer life.

BUT....is that the point of rescuing a Feral ? Or is the point to help him/her out and give her/him a second chance at the life they were born into ?

If the Pigeon is brought back to health and can be released with a certain amount of confidence that physically she is in good shape, and mentally he is acclimating/acclimated to the Feral life....shouldn't they be given that opportunity ?

Not pontificating here....it's a question which comes up often....and in each given particular situation, the answer oftentimes isn't as easy as we'd like it to be.....


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

more updates,,,i still have him...pretty sure hes a boy..he growls a lot..when i bother him....i could keep him...hes adjusted to the home...i already have other birds..im not sure if he want to leave...he flies..but not in great distances..yet..and it still cold here.

ill see how it is during march. give him a few soft releases near a local park..it seems very safe and there are other pigeons there and its away from any major streets
(im in nyc so you know how it is!)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Glad he's healthy. Are there Pigeons in NYC ? ...I hadn't noticed .

Just to clarify..."a few soft releases"...you mean "soft release sessions", yes ? Meaning the Pigeon is caged at all times; you are seeing how he reacts to Feral flocks around him.

I know you probably know that, it's just that you wrote it a bit oddly...if the acclimation is going successfully, you never actually let the Pigeon OUT of the cage until the day he is ready to go.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

technically hes not in a cage at the home..he's free..but stays in one room and hangs out with my budgies. he flies around but i keep him out.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

marvelous80 said:


> technically hes not in a cage at the home..he's free..but stays in one room and hangs out with my budgies. he flies around but i keep him out.



He means when you take him to see the other pigeons. A soft release. He shouldn't be let out until you are certain that he is ready. He needs to be caged at those times.


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## marvelous80 (Dec 9, 2010)

right..i know..he flies..not that great yet..hell have to learn with other pigeons


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

marvelous80 said:


> right..i know..he flies..not that great yet..hell have to learn with other pigeons


He has got to be flying well BEFORE being released, or he would be easy pickins for a predator. He cannot just learn with the other pigeons. That would be one of the things you would look for him being able to do in a soft release.


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