# Need some advice with Pigeon with swollen joints



## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi everyone,

I have been rescuing pigeons for the past 10 years in NYC with the help from the Wild Bird Fund in Manhattan, I have come across a pigeon with swollen joints, it was treated at first with Clyndamicyn for a week, no improvement, then someone told me it could be Salmonella so we opted for Baytril.
The swelling occurs in the knee and the wing (elbow) , have done cultures with poo samples and came out empty handed, very puzzling.
Has anyone seen or treated this condition? It appears healthy,bones seem intact in the x rays, it is eating, and has been in crate rest for the past 4 weeks, I also read about most bird diseases but they involve so many other symptoms that this bird just does not have.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Cesar


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Does sound like salmonella. If you treated for a week with Clyndamicyn, it's not surprising nothing cultured out. 
Does it look like there is pus in the joints?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cesar,




Swelling in both Knees and both 'Elbows'?


Or..?



Phil
Lv


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

No pus,on the first exam 4 weeks ago, we tried to find it on the knee, but now the elbow on the wing is beginning to swell so I would not know until Saturday when Rita at the WBF sees it again, it only initially happened on one knee and one wing, not on the same side


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

also the poo sample culture was done before the medicine was administered and came out clean.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ariaschreiber, if it is the articular form of Paratyphoid, it may be localized in the joint(s) and may not culture out from the GI tract. Baytril is the drug of choice for paratyphoid, treat for 14 days at 20mg/kg q24h. reaccess at the two week point unless there is a negative change in condition. Although at the one week point if I did not see what I considered to be even a slight improvement, I would consider adding Doxycycline, along with the Baytril, 50mg/kg q24h, you could give the Baytril in the morning and the Doxycycline at night. What strength and what dose are you using with the Baytril right now?

Karyn


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi Karyn,

I was using .18 of Baytril 2 times a day for 7 days , I am not sure about the strenght of Baytril I used, it is given to me in a tube from them.
I did see and improvement the 2nd day I used it on the knee as the bird kept it off the floor and not using it as much, the swelling of the knee did go down a tiny bit, and did not appear red but normal in color. This was done only for a week, maybe it needs to be done 2 weeks in a row. The bird has been off Baytril for a week now.
I will mention the adde Doxycycline to them on Saturday..
Thank you for all your information.
I need this bird released before the real cold begins here in NY


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2010)

ariaschreiber said:


> Hi Karyn,
> 
> I was using .18 of Baytril 2 times a day for 7 days , I am not sure about the strenght of Baytril I used, it is given to me in a tube from them.
> I did see and improvement the 2nd day I used it on the knee as the bird kept it off the floor and not using it as much, the swelling of the knee did go down a tiny bit, and did not appear red but normal in color. This was done only for a week, maybe it needs to be done 2 weeks in a row. The bird has been off Baytril for a week now.
> ...


some cases of paratyphoid can take up to a month and beyond on baytril to be over with.. I myself have had 2 birds with it and it took about a months time on baytril before they actually even tried to fly and now one still has athritus in her wing but does fly well enuf to get around


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ariaschreiber, the recommended course of treatment for paratyphoid is 12-14 days, since, if I am reading you right, you only gave it for 1 week you will need to re-treat for two weeks straight. I mentioned the Doxycycline because there are bacteria that cause issues with joints that mimic paratyphoid, that Doxycycline is a better choice for, that's why I mentioned adding it if you saw no noticeable improvement at the 1 week mark, it's good to hear you did see response to the Baytril. As LokotaLoft mentions, in some cases it could take longer to resolve, but by two weeks on the med you should get a better idea how things are shaking out. With the dose you report, 0.18cc of the Baytril, it's hard to say, without knowing the strength whether it is correct. I usually assume a vet is going to get it right, but I always like to double check, it would be good if you could find out the strength, it could be something like 2.5% 5% or 10%, or 25,50,100mg per 1cc/mL.

Karyn


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks Karyn,

It is very informative and detailed, let's hope this bird gets back on track, will print all your information to bring with me.
This is a first for me.

Cesar


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Agree with Karyn that this bird needs a longer course of antibiotics and that an articular infection is not going to show up in a stool culture. It might not even show up on a fine-needle aspirate of the affected joint.

The Baytril you are using is most likely 2.27% and I'm guessing the dose is 15mg/kg BID. The three drugs my avian vet uses for articular swelling are clindamycin, Baytril, and doxycycline.

These kind of infections can take a long while to resolve. The quickest I have seen is a week. With some birds, the swelling doesn't seem to ever go down much, but they regain flight after some time (in one case, it took about 7 months).


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi everyone, 

Thanks for the valuable information about articular paratyphoid, I have the bird on baytril for over a week now, when I brought it to my rehabilitator it had pus on the elbow part of the wing, and she did extract some with a needle, since then it is still swollen and yellowish in color, just hoping this was not a unnecessary step, this is 10 days on baytril and very little improvement on the wing, it is still dragging it loose on the side, I will ask them for Doxycycline to go along with it.
my question is should I continue with the Baytril for a month? I am giving it some probiotics to prevent more damage to the digestive system, the bird eats and has not lost any weight. 260 gr.
Thank you for all the responses to this tedious disease.

Cesar


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Ariaschreiber, why did your rehabber do a fine needle aspiration of the wing for, did s/he send it out for culture and sensitivity?...., as this kind of procedure is really not in the realm of things a rehabber would normally be doing.

Can we get a few photos of the bird itself posted up, with a photo of the bird's fresh droppings. You can continue with the Baytril, still waiting to here what the strength is of the Baytril you are using is and it might not be a bad idea, at this point, to add in the Doxycycline as well. At 260g, I would consider this bird to be underweight and although you feel s/he is self sustaining OK, it might be a good idea to work at getting this bird over at least 300g, even if you have to hand supplement for a while.

Karyn


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi Karyn,

I will call my rehabilitator tonight and ask the strenght of baytril I am using, I am pretty sure it is 2.27%, and I will take some pictures and send them to the thread, now I just have to figure out how to attach them from my computer.

Cesar


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, [email protected] you'll virtually never be able to find the true cause from a fine needle aspirate if there's a boil of synovial fluid that pops up on a wing joint--about all you'll see in the scope is red blood cell nuclei (avian RBC's have them, ours don't) floating in some of the clearest fluid that you've ever seen. You're more likely to have to completely destroy the joint sectioning it up to find the cause. That said, you're only looking for the antibiotic that works by way of a trial-and-error basis. Don't forget that you can also use injectable Penicillin and virtually always go long on the treatment durations. You probably shouldn't go with antibiotics that can cause a "superinfection" to occur after prolonged treatment.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Cesar, I found this the other day in Fit to Win by Doctor Wim Peters, and thought it was important enough to transcribe some extracts in an e-mail to John which I have cut and pasted below. If there is no improvement you could try swapping the antibiotic:

_Streptococcus Bovis

"This disease, now recognised as a difficult and complex condition, has become a threat to both old birds and youngsters. In Europe it ranks second only to Salmonella sp. as a cause of disease"

"Septicemia, resulting in swelling of the joints accompanied by lameness and inability to fly is found"

"Green and slimy diarrhoea - resembling adeno virus - with excessive urine production was reported by Duchatel.

Ampicillin, amoxicillin and doxycycline prevented illness in 80% of the birds tested and appear to be the best drugs at present. Baytril and Trimethropin are the least effective"

*"The striking resemblance that many of the symptoms have have to paratyphoid encourages treatment with Baytril...though this antibiotic is highly regarded and has been found excellent against paratyphoid it fails against S Bovis and giving it depresses the bird further."*

"To further complicate an already confusing picture, it was found that S Bovis was a non-pathogenic inhabitant of the intestine in 80% of the pigeons tested. It would seem as if there is a triggering mechanism which under certain conditions, comes into play making certain pigeons susceptible at certain times." _

Cynthia


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

*Pictures of swollen wing joint*

Bird, wing swelling, poo sample.


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you for the information Cynthia, I will take it in consideration if all else fails, some people seem to like amoxicillin and doxycycline


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cynthia, yes, a good post with pertinent information. Ariaschreiber, we just may want to switch out the Baytril and the Doxycycline in combination with Amoxicillin, or perhaps Clavamox. Would you by any chance be able to get some Clindamycin prescribed?


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi,

The bird was on clindamycin for a week before and there was no improvement


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ariaschreiber, as Pidgey mentioned, for something like this you would want to go for a longer course of treatment. Bacteria end up walling themselves off and becoming encapsulated, and with poor/to no blood supply reaching these areas, it takes time for the antibiotics to get to a good tissue level and penetration. I would probably myself like to see perhaps 2-4 weeks on a combination of Clavamox/or Amoxicillin and Clindamycin or Clavamox/ or Amoxicillin and Metronidazole, before I started to draw a conclusion that the antibiotics were ineffective. There is an infection there and what is required is finding the correct antibiotic(s) that the bacteria are sensitive to, and then treating for a long enough period of time that the infection is completely cleared.

Karyn


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi Karyn,

Thanks for your reply again, yes I will start a combination of drugs as of today I will get Amoxicillin/baytril to go in conjunction, Baytril in the morning and Amoxicillin in the evening, if that does not work I will put her on Clavamox/Clindamycin and as a 3rd resource will be Metronidazole/Doxycicline also one in the morning and another in the evening.
I just think this guy is staying with me trough the winter, poor thing.

Thank you so very much for all that responded with their knowledge of parathyphoid


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ariaschreiber, with the combos, I think that the Clavamox/Clindamycin combo may be best as the Baytril/Amoxicillin combo, would be trying to cover more or less the same certain group of bacteria, but you would add the Clindamycin to cover a different set, that neither Baytril or Clavamox covers as well for. So based on what Feefo posted I would start with the Clavamox/Clindamycin if possible, the recommended dosing is Clavamox (125mg/kg q12h) and the Clindamycin (150mg/kg q24h). The Doxycycline/Metronidazole would be the same and a good combo, where each med would be covering a certain type of bacteria, so they work well together, Doxycycline (25mg/kg q12h) and Metronidazole (50mg/kg q12h).

Karyn


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you Karyn,

Will keep all the good information at hand.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*I would like to point out that pigeons can suffer from the GOUT. In Dr.Wim Peters book FIT TO WIN on page 257 he states that there two forms one form affects joints and the other form affects internal organs this form is deadly. In the book THE PIGEON by W.M. Levi page 407 Levi also points out that there two forms of gout. If anyone wants more information check out this web site http://www.2ndchance.info/gout.htm while this site speaks of pet birds it also points out that pigeons also come down with gout. it is along artical and pigeons are spoke of deep into the artical.I only bring this up as most pigeon men are not aware of gout in pigeons.Please take the time to check it out.* GEORGE


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## ariaschreiber (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you George,

I will check out the link and the information in it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for the link George. I am going to have to have a careful read of that!


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