# Color/pattern of Ice pigeons



## sreeshs

Can someone tell me how these are bred ?


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## george simon

*Hi SREESHS,,Breed Ice to Ice * GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter

Is ice recessive?


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## NewHopePoultry

No idea how to, but they are pretty!


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## Kastle Loft

What is ice? Obviously I can see the photo, but what makes it?


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## MaryOfExeter

There is a gene called Ice (or is it Icy?) that produces the color


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## sreeshs

MaryOfExeter said:


> There is a gene called Ice (or is it Icy?) that produces the color


So you mean that uniform whitish color is due to the Ice (or Icy  ) gene and the patterns like bar/check works as usual ?

George - You broke my heart  I am not able to find ice pigeons here


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## george simon

sreeshs said:


> So you mean that uniform whitish color is due to the Ice (or Icy  ) gene and the patterns like bar/check works as usual ?
> 
> George - You broke my heart  I am not able to find ice pigeons here


 *SREESHS I wish I had a different answer for you, I got my first ice pigeons this past year (Italian Owls) and I realy like the checks better then the bars.* GEORGE


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## Shawn Micheal

they are just amazingly beautiful pigeons .
thank you so much for sharing the pic .


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## copper

The gene for Ice (Ic) is a partial dominant gene that affects the background coloration. In the homozygous condition, it produces a greatly whitened bird with normal colored bars. Thus the "Blue" will be a whitened (icey) bird with black bars, Checks, etc.


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## doveone52

Ooooo! I love the checks!


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## g0ldenb0y55

Someone get that on a racing homer and I'll take a pair!


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## MaryOfExeter

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Someone get that on a racing homer and I'll take a pair!


That's what I was thinking. Since it is dominant, it would be much easier to get it set up in them. If I ever get the time/resources to start a color project in racers, it'd probably be Ice. I think Ice is found in show racers too? If it is, then that would probably be the best cross?


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## sreeshs

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Someone get that on a racing homer and I'll take a pair!


I think its there in tumblers or rollers, so may not be that difficult in homers either.


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## Kastle Loft

Those are awfully nice. Where does a person find these things? (In the States). I guess you'd have to go to a pigeon show . . .

So what would a color project outline look like if a person wanted to get Ice in their homers?

Step 1: buy a male/female ice colored pigeon
Step 2: mate it to WHAT?
Step 3: mate the ice color offspring back to WHAT in order to try to keep the color and keep some homing/speed?


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## MaryOfExeter

Mate it to a blue bar or check if you want the typical ice pigeon look.
Then I would mate the F1 offspring back to different racers. Do heterozygous ice birds look different from normal birds? If so, then any F2 kids that show it, I would mate together.


Also, by partial dominance, are you referring to the Incomplete?


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## avian

they are damascenes not ice


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## sreeshs

I do not think Damascenes come in check pattern


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## indigobob

The two birds in the first photograph are Ice Pigeons - Damascenes have rounder heads and shorter beaks.

The ice gene is a partial dominant or partial recessive! Either way, the F1 crosses will show more or less ice effect, which makes it a relatively easy gene to transfer from one bred to another. After the initial cross the selection criteria you use is dependant on your aim; F1 back to the original recipient breed, F1 to F1, always selecting for good colour/type/performance.

Damascene and Ice Pigeon are the most recognisable examples of the ice gene on blue, Crescent or Moon Pigeons are ash-red and ice combination.


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## george simon

avian said:


> they are damascenes not ice


*Hi AVIAN,The birds that were posted in the first post are ICE PIGEONS that is their breed name ,they come in check and bar.The DAMASCENE is a different breed their color is ICE and they are barred only.* GEORGE


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## Kastle Loft

indigobob said:


> The two birds in the first photograph are Ice Pigeons - Damascenes have rounder heads and shorter beaks.
> 
> The ice gene is a partial dominant or partial recessive! Either way, the F1 crosses will show more or less ice effect, which makes it a relatively easy gene to transfer from one bred to another. After the initial cross the selection criteria you use is dependant on your aim; F1 back to the original recipient breed, F1 to F1, always selecting for good colour/type/performance.
> 
> Damascene and Ice Pigeon are the most recognisable examples of the ice gene on blue, Crescent or Moon Pigeons are ash-red and ice combination.


F1 being the first generations, right? And F2 being second generation, etc?


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## indigobob

dstephenson said:


> F1 being the first generations, right? And F2 being second generation, etc?


Hello David,

Yes, F1 is the first generation, F2 is the second; but the F2 generation is a result of an F1 sibling mating, not as many breeders think the second phase of a breeding project, regardless of the relationship of the individuals involved. The F3 generation is produced from F2 siblings and so on.

"F" represents "filial", i.e. "of the parents" or the relationship of children to their parents.


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## hasseian_313

ive seen turksih tumblers with that coloring does any one kno a good pigeon gentics book


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## sreeshs

hasseian_313 said:


> ive seen turksih tumblers with that coloring does any one kno a good pigeon gentics book


Recommended reading from Frank Mosca's website

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/RECOMMENDEDREADING.html


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## copper

Sreeshs, Damascenes do come in a check pattern.


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## sreeshs

copper said:


> Sreeshs, Damascenes do come in a check pattern.


Ok, so now I am confused..... , are there any references you can share on that please ?


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## copper

I'm short of time right now ,but I found 2 pictures of a Checkered damascene in an old issue of the pigeon debut magazine August ,1998 issue,page 16 and on page 59.This issue was devoted to the rare breeds.I'm going to the Big Apple pigeon show tomorrow, I will try to take a picture of one and post it .
"Off to work I go " .


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## george simon

*OK, lets go back to the first post made in this thread the birds pictured there are ICE PIGEONS pictures can be found in the Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds on page190-194. Now go to pages102-103 you will see the Damascene.When one looks they will see that the ICE PIGEON has a longer beak, the head is bigger and the bird is larger then the Damascene, the Damascene is a smaller bird with a small head that is flat on top and the beak is smaller.* GEORGE


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## ezemaxima

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Someone get that on a racing homer and I'll take a pair!


I felt the same thing when I first saw an ICE check..


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## MaryOfExeter

Damascenes are only supposed to be in bar. Even the Encyclopedia of Breeds says it (and it's an old book). It's described here as a "one color pigeon"
http://www.pigeoncote.com/hilight/damascene/damascen.html
The NPA standard here in 93 still only had one color, and color is a major deal in showing.
http://www.pigeoncote.com/standards/damascene/npadamas.html
Even the UK standard shows one color.
http://www.ameronlofts.com/Damascene_History___Standar.php
Looks like the standard hasn't changed here, according to the AZ pigeon club.
http://www.azpigeonclub.org/bird_standards/damascene.php


However, in UK, they do have checked ones.









And France.











SO. I'm thinking the checked Damascenes are still a work in progress, and probably not recognized yet. Even so, they DO exist. Probably mixed with Owls to get the check.


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## sreeshs

What a beauty


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## copper

Sreeshs,I did go to the show ,but there were no Damascenes at this show.I did find a few pictures of them on another site ,but I see someone else has already posted a couple of pictures already.
George.I know the difference between an Ice pigeon is and a Damascene .


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## sreeshs

Anyway the matings have to be Ice x Ice, so I have to confine admiring the beauty in the photos


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## george simon

copper said:


> Sreeshs,I did go to the show ,but there were no Damascenes at this show.I did find a few pictures of them on another site ,but I see someone else has already posted a couple of pictures already.
> George.I know the difference between an Ice pigeon is and a Damascene .


*Hi COPPER, Sorry if I offended you. My post was only meant to point out to those that have posted on this thread, that may have thought that the birds that Sreeshs posted in the first post were DAMASCENE.*GEORGE


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## george simon

MaryOfExeter said:


> Damascenes are only supposed to be in bar. Even the Encyclopedia of Breeds says it (and it's an old book). It's described here as a "one color pigeon"
> http://www.pigeoncote.com/hilight/damascene/damascen.html
> The NPA standard here in 93 still only had one color, and color is a major deal in showing.
> http://www.pigeoncote.com/standards/damascene/npadamas.html
> Even the UK standard shows one color.
> http://www.ameronlofts.com/Damascene_History___Standar.php
> Looks like the standard hasn't changed here, according to the AZ pigeon club.
> http://www.azpigeonclub.org/bird_standards/damascene.php
> 
> 
> However, in UK, they do have checked ones.
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> And France.
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> SO. I'm thinking the checked Damascenes are still a work in progress, and probably not recognized yet. Even so, they DO exist. Probably mixed with Owls to get the check.


Hi BECKY,When I saw the pictures of the Ice check I thought that I was looking at the two Ice check ITALIAN OWLS that I have in my loft the only difference is my birds have the frill. The ice color is in the Italian Owl standard. So I agree with you that an owl breed is being used and I think that the italian owl may well be the bird used. ..GEORGE


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## copper

Hey George,you didn't offend me.I lost my good friend Sonny about 10 years ago.He raised some of the best Damascenes I have ever seen.He had them in blue barr,check ,and silver.


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## hasseian_313

can't wait to see a pair for sale at a show


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## MaryOfExeter

I wasn't aware they had red bar Damascenes either, but there is a discussion about them going on right now in the genetics yahoo group.


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## indigobob

MaryOfExeter said:


> I wasn't aware they had red bar Damascenes either, but there is a discussion about them going on right now in the genetics yahoo group.


Here is a photo of an ash-red Damacene that was for sale on Eggbid a while ago.


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## george simon

indigobob said:


> Here is a photo of an ash-red Damacene that was for sale on Eggbid a while ago.


*While some may call it a redbar ice it still looks more like an ash red. Note the dark ice in the picture has a black tail bar,but the red bar ice shows no red tail bar so IMHO it is not a true ice * GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter

I'm confused. Why would a red bird have a tail bar anyway?


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## george simon

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm confused. Why would a red bird have a tail bar anyway?


 *Hi BECKY, Its just my opinion as I see it the DAMASCENE with his black wing and tail bars on the ice makes it one of a kind when I look at the picture posted I see that the red bar has lost some of the things that made the up the look of a Damascene,the ice color is suppressed, the dark tips of the wings are missing, no tail bar.Yes the body shape is the same but the bird has lost the true look of a DAMASCENE, and that is just my opinion. * GEORGE


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## george simon

copper said:


> Hey George,you didn't offend me.I lost my good friend Sonny about 10 years ago.He raised some of the best Damascenes I have ever seen.He had them in blue barr,check ,and silver.


*I bet they were realy nice birds *GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter

I agree George  The ice coloration is what made the Damascene the Damascene. Otherwise, it'd just look like any other owl-like pigeon. But I must say, the red bar in the picture is still lovely. The neck still has that silvery look that the traditional ice birds have. A big thing with them is that the underside of their feathers are darker than the top. Does that trait still occur in the ash-red birds? Or is it just not as noticable (if at all)?


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## Guest

george simon said:


> Hi BECKY,When I saw the pictures of the Ice check I thought that I was looking at the two Ice check ITALIAN OWLS that I have in my loft the only difference is my birds have the frill. The ice color is in the Italian Owl standard. So I agree with you that an owl breed is being used and I think that the italian owl may well be the bird used. ..GEORGE


nice looking birds there George , love the color ,thanks for sharing.


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## Guest

indigobob said:


> Here is a photo of an ash-red Damacene that was for sale on Eggbid a while ago.


are those birds from bobert ? if it is his birds I remember he always had alot of great looking damacenes for sale on eggbid ,seen him selling some on another site as well since then though I forget which one it is now


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## indigobob

LokotaLoft said:


> are those birds from bobert ? if it is his birds I remember he always had alot of great looking damacenes for sale on eggbid ,seen him selling some on another site as well since then though I forget which one it is now


I don't know who was selling these birds, I just "borrowed" the photo for future reference!


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## indigobob

This is an F1 cock from a white-chequered Ice Pigeon cock and a blue-barred Roller. So if any one fancies Ice-coloured Homers, give it a go!


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## indigobob

This is his sister:


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## Guest

looks like you are well on your way to introducing the color to your birds but i think it still takes generations to get back the form of the breed you are tranferring it too,not really sure thou ? your birds do look great thou,very pretty


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## MaryOfExeter

Beautiful birds! Nice to see there is definitely a difference in the Ice carriers and non-carriers.
That cockbird looks just like a roller too! The hen needs some work on her shape, but it looks like you won't have a problem getting them to look right. Now the rolling is your problem.


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## wcooper

Sorry it's a bit lengthy but this is courtesy of the NWOETC:
DOMINANT COLOR. Introducing a colors that are the result of a dominant trait are by far the easiest colors to introduce. Examples of some dominant traits are almond, qualmond, grizzle, indigo, faded and dominant opal. Dominant colors express themselves on the first cross. Even though indigo already exists in the West I will use it as an example.
Breeding plan for a dominant color.
Scenario – You want to breed introduce indigo into your blue pattern Wests. The indigo bird you obtained for the project is an indigo check flying roller cock.
Step 1 - mate him to your best blue pattern hen. You happen to raise 8 youngsters from this mating, 5 indigos and 3 blues. Select the 3 best indigos (the ones that look the most like a West) for Step 2 matings.
(Note: these youngsters will be 50% West and from past experience will most likely be pretty uniform in type)Step 2 – mate the 3 selected birds from step one to your 3 best blue pattern Wests. You raise 18 youngsters from the 3 pair. There should be indigos (50% chance), indigos with pearl eyes (25% chance), indigos with full muffs (25% chance). If your lucky you may have an indigo with pearl eyes and muffs (12.5 % chance).
Choose the 3 best birds that are indigo and at least one of the other desired traits – pearl eyes or muffs.
(Note: these youngsters are on the average 75% West. Some will actually be a little more and some a little less percentage West depending on their actual individual inheritance. They will likely show a lot more variation in type from poor West type to good West type. You should avoid using ones with poor type to continue in your color project even if they are the right color. They will most likely set your color project back.)
Step 3 – mate the 3 birds selected from step two to your 3 best blue pattern Wests. Again you raise 18 youngsters from the 3 pair. If you bred from birds from step 2 that also had pearl eyes and muffs there should be several indigo birds with pearl eyes and muffs. A couple may even be showable birds. Select the 2 or 3 best for step 4.
(Note: these youngsters are on the average 87.5% West. Some will actually be a little more and some a little less percentage West depending on their actual individual inheritance. They will likely show basically West type with a more normal variation of type that you would see in your average West matings. Again you should avoid using ones with poor type to continue in your color project.)
Step 4 – take the youngsters from step 3 and again mate them to your best blue patterns. 50% of the youngster should be indigos. Hopefully you will have several nice indigo pattern Wests and at this point forward you can use your normal breedingpractices for breeding the desired colored West.
(Note: these youngsters are on the average 93.25% West. Some will actually be a little more and some a little less percentage West depending on their actual individual inheritance. They should basically be indistinguishable from your normal West.)

Hope this helps...


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## indigobob

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Unfortunately I was not able to continue with this particular colour project. Posting the photo's was to illustrate how easy (with luck) it could be for one of you enterprising breeders to transfer "ice" to your homers.


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## MaryOfExeter

Well I do plan on trying the project  I was hoping I could find some ice in ASR's or SRH's (show type racing homers. there is a big difference actually ). The only for sure ice birds I found were McClary's birds, which of course would require importing. I think I may have found some here in the US, but the guy never replied back. For some reason people don't like talking to me. I ask them about birds and they never say anything 
SO I guess I'll go with the Ice Pigeons, which luckily I can find in NC!

He also has Swiss Crescents, which I believe I heard are also ice? (just in ash-red/yellow).

Another question: Are they Ice Pigeons or Saxon Ice Pigeons?  He uses both names. So now I'm wondering if there's a difference, or if they are the same and which name is actually correct.


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## copper

Becky, the Ice Pigeon is one of the oldest of the German color pigeons developed in Saxony, Silesia and South Germany. They are called Ice Pigeon and not Saxon Ice Pigeon. There are a lot of color pigeons that do have the name Saxon, the Ice Pigeon is not one of them.
The most beautiful Ice Pigeon in existence is the silver. It's basic ensemble is a pale iced silver, and in the white barred form , sports white wing bars edged in dun, the tail has a dun terminal bar.


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## indigobob

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well I do plan on trying the project  I was hoping I could find some ice in ASR's or SRH's (show type racing homers. there is a big difference actually ). The only for sure ice birds I found were McClary's birds, which of course would require importing. I think I may have found some here in the US, but the guy never replied back. For some reason people don't like talking to me. I ask them about birds and they never say anything
> SO I guess I'll go with the Ice Pigeons, which luckily I can find in NC!
> 
> He also has Swiss Crescents, which I believe I heard are also ice? (just in ash-red/yellow).
> 
> Another question: Are they Ice Pigeons or Saxon Ice Pigeons?  He uses both names. So now I'm wondering if there's a difference, or if they are the same and which name is actually correct.


Mary, the ice-coloured Show/Racing Homers may be the result of selection for lightening factors rather than the genetic 'ice' gene. You mentioned in a previous post about the dark under-feather of ice pigeons, I have also read that it is necessary for good ice expression and that ice pigeon babies are dark-skinned, suggesting dirty is present. So using a pale/light-coloured homer may actually work against you.

Crescent are ice and ash-red.

Good luck with your project.


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## Kastle Loft

MaryOfExeter said:


> SO I guess I'll go with the Ice Pigeons, which luckily I can find in NC!


Where or who has them in NC, if you don't mind me asking? I might look into some of those myself.


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## MaryOfExeter

dstephenson said:


> Where or who has them in NC, if you don't mind me asking? I might look into some of those myself.


www.colorpigeons.com





I know there is a difference between the 'powder' blues and actual ice birds.
This is what I would call one of the powder blues.








But this is the one I was talking about that McClary bred, which I thought to be ice. George agreed with me.









And yet on his website, he calls this one the powder blue.

http://www.douglas.mcclary.btinternet.co.uk/kemyellofts.html


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## hasseian_313

yah 2nd one looks like more of a ice color does anyone know of the first breed to show this color


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## doveone52

I have bought pigeons from Danny Joe and he is a super nice guy and has some awesome pigeons! I'd love some of each of his pigeons!
PS:Even his "throw ins" were excellent!


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## MaryOfExeter

I was wondering if anyone ha bought from him. Some of his pics look kinda iffy, but I guess he just caught them at a bad time, during the moult and such.


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## indigobob

MaryOfExeter said:


> www.colorpigeons.com
> 
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> I know there is a difference between the 'powder' blues and actual ice birds.
> This is what I would call one of the powder blues.
> 
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> But this is the one I was talking about that McClary bred, which I thought to be ice. George agreed with me.
> 
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> And yet on his website, he calls this one the powder blue.
> 
> http://www.douglas.mcclary.btinternet.co.uk/kemyellofts.html


The second bird may look "Ice" but it would be a pretty safe bet that Doug McClary wouldn't have crossed an Ice Pigeon with his homers! Look at the colour of the legs and feet - the exposure of the photograph makes the bird look much paler-coloured!


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## MaryOfExeter

I thought about that too, but I don't know. Doesn't necessarily mean he crossed them himself though. Either way, they are beautiful birds! I'm not a huge fan of darkening genes, but they're slowly taking over my loft  So pretty powdery blue birds like these are just so pretty to me.


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