# Pigeon with leg and wing stiffness



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I am starting a new thread on Ricky, who I got two months back with symptoms like head wobbling, losing balance while standing and runny poop. He was treated initially with amikacin injections for 3 days. Later on, finding no improvement in his symptoms, I continued with 10 days of baytril. He was also dewormed and treated for canker with metronidazole.
A month after I got him, his wobbling improved but he started to develop weakness of his right leg, which he kept up at all times. Soon, he began to lean on the right side, causing toppling and thrashing around. He could no longer stand on his wooden rod without toppling so I had to shift him to a padded carrier. Soon, I noticed his right wing is stiff too, and he cannot extend it as well as the left one. So his right side (wing and leg) are stiff now.
He can stand inside a well-padded carrier, but not on smooth ground. He also eats very less, the rest he regurgitates back. I am giving him ACV, multivitamins, garlic capsule, and today I started him on piracetam also. 

I have been giving him massage for leg and wing, for 2 weeks now, but there is no improvement. I took him to a vet yesterday, who told me not to do the massages, as it could do more harm than good if nerves are involved. 

Any suggestions on how to improve his chances of having a quality life would be appreciated. Right now, I am keeping him in a padded carrier, in the living room so everybody can talk to him and he can watch us. He can also watch the other pigeons at a distance, so it keeps him occupied.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

This is a tough one. You have treated all of the common stuff, with the exception of renal/gut meds, but I dunno if that will do anything, really.

It's the regurgitating which still really puzzles me...he has been doing that to some degree or another for 2 months now.

Did the vet ever take an x-ray ? Does the vet have capabilities to X-ray a bird ?

I doubt the massages hurt anything, but I would say if after 2 weeks of it there is zero improvement.......it hasn't had a positive effect.....

Pirecatam is a neuro-enhancer...I have never heard of that being prescribed for birds before (?)

ACV, vitamins, garlic....how often, how much, and for how long ?


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. I once found a brown pigeon that was shot with a pellet that hurt its leg and one wing. Only an x ray solved that puzzle. Even after surgery, the bird never flew.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

When I got him, he was in a very delicate condition. I started him on thin baby formula, and slowly brought the consistency up. Then I gradually introduced the pellets. Since then, he has been taking pellets. Now I also started to mix bit of seeds into it as you suggested in the old thread, and he is taking it well. But after I give the first 4-5 pieces, he starts this rotating motion of his crop, which means stop. If I give him extra, he takes it out neatly back,through his beak. Sometimes he regurgitates immediately, other times after a while. 

I used piracetam last year on my post PMV pigeon, to improve her neurological condition. It wasn't prescribed by any vet, it was suggested here in PT back then.
I am giving ACV in drinking water, every other day. I am giving a drop of multivitamins prescribed for human infants, a drop every alternate day. Also am giving additional calcium, D3 and Vitamin B supplements, like every third day.
I am giving the multivitamins and ACV since I got him. The calcium and garlic I have started last week.
@Hamlet, thanks for the reply. This stiffness came about a month after I got him, so I don't think it could be a fracture. The vet felt his stiff wing and said the muscles have atrophy (spelling?) due to non-use. I have never seen him walking about since he came. He used to stand wherever he is placed, sometimes moving just enough to get to his perching stick. So I think this was a gradual deterioration.
Jaye, I remember that you suggested 'boots' for pigeons in SaiMino's post. Can such boots help Ricky?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

So sorry to hear about Ricky. It's very difficult to get the correct diagnosis of his illness. It could have been an illness... or an accident.. that may have damaged his nerves and coordination.

How does he eat? Do you force-feed him, or can he eat on his own? I would suggest to let him eat the quantity he is comfortable with, and not put too much food into his crop (that he vomits them out)

When I had food poisoning and was feeling nauseous, my parents forced me to eat (thinking I was lacking nutrients!) and it was the worst thing in the world that resulted in me puking 14 times! Sometimes, it's better NOT to eat, and let the symptoms recover on their own, than to force down food into the gut. Is Ricky able to eat little meals... and keep the food down.. on his own?

And.. heated pad! I swear by that stuff... heated pad is so important in a pigeon's recovery. Do place one close to his crop so he can get the food moving... and hopefully not vomit it out.

One more thing.... for the ACV, multivitamins, and other stuff... best not to give it all in one go. Leave a few days in between before giving them each item. Also, my vet advised not to give too much multivitamins... so maybe once in 2-3 weeks is sufficient?

Do update us. I hope Ricky will recover soon! Take care!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Sassypants. No, he doesn't eat on his own. I am giving him small meals, since anyway he is not walking and doesn't exert himself much. I will reduce the dosage of multivitamins. Also, he is not receiving enough sunshine because it is mostly cloudy now. I have to take him outdoors more.
He again injured his wing thrashing around today. I have cut a sock and put it around him like a sweater so he can't move his wings. I don't like it this way, but this is the only way to stop him from harming himself. I have to improvise it, since his nails get entangled in the sock material.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think putting a sock over his wings will just cause him more stress. Couldn't you just pad his cage or something so that he won't hurt himself?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I am wondering if ACV needs to be given that often.

It doesn't sound like this is typical crop stasis, particularly if after only 5 bites of food something in him makes him spit out any more.

The sunshine is good but the lack of it is not likely causing his problems....

I do not usually use vitamin supplements, so do not know if the frequency is causing anything as well....

Do you remember how long you treated for canker ?

I am wondering if the canker may have been resistant to Metronidazole (this is becoming more common). I usually do a double-shot of canker meds when I treat for canker ~ 2 different canker meds. (I am only speculating here, as I said, this whole malady is very puzzling).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree that ACV doesn't need to be given so often, and even then, a weak dose, maybe twice weekly. And too many vitamins can cause problems also.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Ok, I will give the ACV less often. I remember treating him with metronidazole for 10 days. He did have canker, the vet took out a cheesy deposit from beneath his tongue. His mouth smells fine now. 
I took out the sock, because I realized that he needs the wings to stand upright. His carrier is already padded.But when he tumbles, his wings get bent, this causes injury all along the rim of the better wing. 
I forgot to mention, he is not sitting depressed or anything. Everyday I move the carrier around the house wherever I am working, and he watches everything happening around him with interest. He also shares a nice friendship with the other PMV pigeon Ranjo. Ranjo prefers to stand by the carrier, looking at Ricky and giving him company.
More than the food intake, what is bothering me is the leg weakness. Since only one side of him is weak, this is causing the tumbling.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Are you able to show us a picture of his padded cell? Maybe add more cushion into it?

It's cute that Ranjo keeps visiting Ricky. It's not lonely for both of them, and I'm sure they are talking about what a great human being you are for rescuing them.

I am worried about Ricky not being able to eat on his own. He doesn't even try to peck at the seeds? At all?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you sure that you are not dealing with Paratyphoid? It can look like PMV, but with the leg and wing stiffness, sounds like it could possibly be Paratyphoid, or both.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Wouldn't the Baytril (10 days) have taken care of Paratyphoid ?

Cut back a bit on the vitamins, too....see if anything improves...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> Wouldn't the Baytril (10 days) have taken care of Paratyphoid ?
> 
> Cut back a bit on the vitamins, too....see if anything improves...




No, not necessarily. It can often take a lot longer to treat, depending on the strain and its severity. It can look as though it is getting better, and then come back. There are many different strains you know?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> *Wouldn't the Baytril (10 days) have taken care of Paratyphoid ?*
> 
> Cut back a bit on the vitamins, too....see if anything improves...


*NO.*
I've just started the second 30 days course of enrofloxcin.This strain is sensitive to enrofloxcin as per the culture.
More importantly, if a bird has salmonella, it is believed that a 10 course does not remove the carrier state. Dr. Weare believes that a 14 day treatment is needed and Dr. Walker suggests a 21 day treatment. The true answer is unclear to me.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

There ya go.

Wonder if you restart Baytril whether things might improve, Kunju ?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone. He is quite frail now. I don't personally feel like starting him on baytril yet again, but if that is the best suggestion, I will definitely give it a try.
He is inside a sort of bucket, and it is of plastic. But he is hurting his wings everyday when he tumbles about. Everyday I observe fresh blood inside his wing, along the rim starting from the shoulder. I am thinking perhaps clipping may help?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

That actually looks quite comfortable. I wonder how he can tumble so much in that constraint space?

Hopefully, a longer dose of the meds the experts have suggested will help with whatever illness that is bothering poor Ricky.

Do keep us posted. Take care!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't clip his wings, as they help him to balance himself.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

If he continues declining, there is no reason NOT to restart Baytril. Why wouldn't you ? He is certainly not maintaining on his own.

Please restart it.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you all for putting things in perspective. I have read here that Baytril tends to bring on yeast problems, so I will have to use Baytril along with yeast/fungal medicines right? 
Ok, I will not clip the wings. He tumbles because of getting tilted towards his weak side, even inside the bucket. I am applying neosporin powder on his wing injuries. I am starting with baytril, let's see how it goes.

Thanks everyone! Will keep you updated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, you would use the yeast/fungal meds. Also be sure to pull any calcium.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What is the dose of baytril you are giving him?
How much food and water is he getting each day?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

The dosage is 3 drops of the 10% solution of enrofloxacin. I am giving him about 2 tablespoons of pellets, mixed with some small grains (like ragi, millet etc), in a day (divided into 2 feedings). He drinks plenty of water ( I hold his beak into the water and he drinks).

I haven't checked if he would feed on his own. Since he is having balance issues, I assumed that hand feeding would be best for both of us. But I will check one day and update.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Just remember to withhold calcium or any vitamin supplements until the meds are over. No ADE, Elixir or anything... we don't know if the ingredients could clash with the meds.. so best to stay on the safe side.

ACV should be fine, I think? Especially if there is a chance of yeast infection.. it may help. Experts, can you confirm this? I'm not sure..

What meds for yeast are you giving him with the baytril?

Keep us posted k.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Sassypants. Yes I will take care to avoid the calcium and vitamins. The yeast medication I have is ketoconazole (prescribed for Rudy earlier).


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kunju said:


> The dosage is 3 drops of the 10% solution of enrofloxacin. I am giving him about 2 tablespoons of pellets, mixed with some small grains (like ragi, millet etc), in a day (divided into 2 feedings). He drinks plenty of water ( I hold his beak into the water and he drinks).
> 
> I haven't checked if he would feed on his own. Since he is having balance issues, I assumed that hand feeding would be best for both of us. But I will check one day and update.


I don't think you are feeding him enough and that may be part of the problem. *Please feed him every time the crop empties. This could mean you are feeding as many as 4 tiimes a day.
*


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Actually I have tried feeding him more than twice. I am not good at finding the crop, and checking if it is empty. But last month, I tried feeding three times, and the regurgitation increased. Once after I gave him a morning dose of baytril, he regurgitated last night's meal. The feeling I am getting is - his digestion is sluggish.

Today I tried guiding his head into the food bowl, to see if he would peck and eat by himself. He pecked two times, but did not eat anything. 
I tried putting a heat pad under his towel, but the smoothness of the pad is making him lose balance. Apart from a smooth surface, another important factor for losing balance is stress. When stressed, he twists neck and his body tilts towards the weak side, causing tumbling. Other times he loses balance is when he is trying to preen his back, and when he exercises his wings. But recently, he is able to do the wing exercises inside his bucket without losing balance.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The crop is below the throat and above the keel bone which is in the center of the pigeon
When the crop has food it feels lumpy and you can feel the seed. Empty it feels flat.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Charis, I will feel it tomorrow and see how long it takes for his crop to empty.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I have started giving him food thrice a day, and he is keeping it down 
When I touch the crop, I can understand that it is not like when it has food in it, but it is not entirely deflated either - there is some mushiness left. Do I take this as empty? 
My other pigeon Ranjo always has a mushy chest, whether there is food in it or not.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hopefully the meds are working... Glad to know at least he's not throwing up as much.

Keep us posted!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

An update on Ricky. Just when I felt his right leg is beginning to get stronger, he thrashed around real bad. I saw blood marks everywhere, and I first looked at his left wing, because that is what always bleeds after an episode of thrashing around. The wing was indeed covered with blood, and next I was horrified to find that his head looked detached from the rest of his body. But he was looking at me as if nothing has happened. When I parted his neck feathers above his shoulders, I found that he has torn out a part of his skin on his neck with his own nails. The sliding muscle underneath was showing. It was horrible to look at. I applied an antibiotic ointment and covered the entire wound with neosporin powder. The same for the wing. 
He is healing well, and the wound is closing gradually. But I have stopped keeping him in the open carrier. He is now in a small closed carrier inside which he cannot even stretch his wings. He grunts and is quite angry with me for keeping him in it, but till his injuries are fully healed, this is where he will stay.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Poor thing.

Thank goodness the wounds have fully healed. He is a danger to himself, so he should remain in a padded cell. One that he cannot even tumble. Though I think, once a day, he should be given a chance to stretch under strict supervision from you.

For maybe 10-15 mins, take him to a slightly open carrier, WATCH HIM AT ALL TIMES, let him stretch his toes and wings, then put him back into the padded cell.

At least that gets his blood circulated. Keep us posted. Good luck!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Sassypants! I take him on my lap whenever I am watching TV, but he doesn't stretch his wings when on my lap. Till the wound on the back of his neck heals, I am not taking chances. On the positive side, I feel his right leg has more strength now. He is already on baytril, so I guess that will help heal the wound as well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

IF he can't even move around at all, he is going to be so stressed, which isn't going to help.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

The carrier is just enough for him to turn around, anyway he is out of it now. The wound healed fully. For a week now, Ricky's character has changed. He is no more the helpless guy in the basket who lets me pick him up and do whatever I like. He has started to try to flee when he sees me approaching, and when I finally catch him, he puts up a fight before he settles down on my lap. The only good thing is - he doesn't try to flee from my lap!

For past two days, first thing in the morning, I removed him from the basket and placed him on the floor on top of a rug. He stayed standing for sometime, changing positions in between but not 'walking around' yet. Then something that stressed him caused him to twist his head and his right leg became weak, and he tumbled about trying to upright himself. When I caught him to stop the tumbling, I could feel the thud-thud of his heart against my hand. After this, no matter what I did to calm him down, he couldn't stand back again on the rug without twisting over. So it was back to the basket. This was part of an experiment for two days, to see how he does outside the basket, but I guess he is not ready.
He feels secure inside the basket, and this security keeps his balance. I do wish that he would stand without getting stressed even outside the basket one day, but I don't want to push it. When he is ready, he will come out and stand.
Sometimes he stands quite normally inside the basket, pushing his right and left legs equally down. Another improvement is that he is no more hurting his wing during the tumbling. Inside the basket, he is able to recover his balance after an event of tumbling. 

He has also been moulting, I don't know if that is related to his sudden change of character.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Glad there are some improvements.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

An update on Ricky. 

5 months ago: Got her circling in the parking lot with head wobbling and diarrhea. Treatment done with baytril, metro. 
1 month later: 
She starts to lose balance and tumble about. Hence shifted to a small closed carrier first, then to a big open basket lined with towels. Her right leg was weaker than than the left, and this along with the stress and neck twisting made her lose balance.

Two months later: 
The left leg feels more stronger, and she stands better and more erect on both legs. Still in the basket.
She starts to resist being caught for feeding. The more she treats me like an enemy, the happier I get, because I know this means she is getting better.

Developments this month:
One fine night, she hops off the basket. Spends the next 2 days walking about the house. I am living as if in a dream, I can't believe she is walking again.
I learn that the reason for her hopping off the basket is Ruku, the male who wants her. She tries to get the attention of Ruku. Wanting her to have a normal life, I put them in the same balcony - big mistake.
Day 3 - She is back to bad neck-twisting and tumbling. The stress of romance has got to her. I put her back in the carrier, she does not resist.
For 2 days, she is in the carrier. She begins to grunt and peck hard when she is put back in it after a feeding, so I shift her to the open basket. Sometimes she is ok, other times she tumbles inside the basket and has to be returned to the small carrier.
Again, last week, she does the hop from the basket with renewed confidence. I again rejoice, but this time I make sure she doesn't get bullied or attract male attention. She needs to walk first, other things can wait.
4 Days ago: I leave her overnight all alone inside a room. In the morning, her nervous symptoms have returned. Will a lot of reassurance, she finally is ready to walk again.
2 days ago: My sister comes over for stay, and Ricky's condition declines. She can no longer stand, tumbles about at the sound of my sister. Back to the basket.
Sister left today. 2 hours later, Ricky too hops out the basket.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wow! Obvious that stress brings on the symptoms again. After a while I think she will do better.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow. Thank you for giving so much care.

I think that when she recovers she doesn't have much time to get used with what's around and what's happening and gets stressed again. May be as time goes by she recalls everything and memory gets reinforced and she will be more confident and not relapse.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes I too hope it gets better with time. As you said, she needs to get accustomed to the house and its people. And to walking and the new things she is able to do with her new-found mobility. Will keep you all updated. And thanks to everyone here who helped Ricky!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

An update on Ricky. After two months of doing fine, Ricky has relapsed into her earlier condition of losing balance, since a week now. I think the change of weather might be responsible, and her wings are hanging lower now. I am still hand-feeding, and her poops are fine. 
She is reluctant to go outside into the balcony these days, as it is quite windy. She also has been trying to fly more. Other than that, nothing has changed in her daily life. 
I am praying she gets her confidence back..


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe it's best if she stays indoors and avoid the strong wind. Better for her emotionally if she feels secure inside.

Take care and keep us posted.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Are you sure that you are not dealing with Paratyphoid? It can look like PMV, but with the leg and wing stiffness, sounds like it could possibly be Paratyphoid, or both.


Sorry , i didn't have time to read all the posts, but from the title description and relapse i do think of Salmonella, because of my experience.

One of my Rescued pigeons with lower wing which healed in 2 months, turned out afterwards to be limping ( swelling of the ankle came along)..so it was Salmonella. 1 month he was kept on Baytril. 

Salmonella can also paralyze pigeons...and if bacteria still in the system is not flushed completely , it can always relapse.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. 6 months back when I got her, it was her right leg which was most affected, but now the other leg is swollen (in the palm area)..sorry the picture isn't so clear, but if you compare, the left leg is fatter because of the swelling). She isn't limping though.


I am keeping her in the basket for the night, the presence of a basket somehow makes her feel secure and stops the falling over. 

@ Dima: Did your pigeon fully recover after the second round of antibiotics?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She really needs her claws clipped. Their length alone would make it harder for her to stand or walk. Take a little off at a time. In a week, take a bit more off. Like a dog, the vein inside will grow out further if the claws are long. If you take some off, they will start to recede, and then you can clip some more off. Have flour or blod stop handy, in case you cut the quick and make them bleed. But try not to. With them that long, it makes it harder for them to stand properly or walk well.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for pointing that out. Will try clipping them on my own.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Kunju, I think was in August i got him with dropping wing..then it healed, and as you said the palm of his foot got swollen first , then swollen on same side of the ankle like your pic , but it went further on the swelling all around the ankle. He was on Baytril from the day 1 the bottom of foot got swollen and swelling continued all the way through the 1 month treatment. After 2 - 3 weeks of end of medication i noticed he was putting weight on his foot though it was swollen. Now , about 3 months later, he is left with a slightly lump on the ankle.
He was on Metacam, pain medication also.

This is a chronic Salmonella that brings fluid in the joints.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Dima. I am bit hesitant to start her on antibiotics again, because she has a fragile digestive system. From what you said about your pigeon, I am wondering if the swelling went away on its own, or because of the Baytril.
Ricky's right foot was the one affected first, and it was lumpy (lumps here and there) for like 2-3 months. But now the leg has healed fully, and the swelling has started on the left one. I am thinking since she is not limping or anything, I should wait and let it heal on its own.
Her confidence is coming back, and she is quickly steadying herself after the tumbling episodes.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Its your call, Kunju. Possible to heal on its own, because was under your care with good nutrition and vitamins. But if it was Salmonella, it will come back; your pigeon could also be a carrier.


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