# Canker bleed



## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

I was tube feeding a canker bird this morning and I think I inadvertently dislodged a nodule because now there is blood in his mouth. It doesn't seem to be stopping and I'm not certain what to do. Is there any way to stop the bleed or will it just continue until he dies?


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

Can you see where it is bleeding from?
If you can... try using a Q-tip and apply a bit of pressure to the bleeding area for about 3 to 5 minutes.
Not too much pressure as you dont want to perforate anything.
Im not 100% sure what to tell you tbh.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in shortly.
I hope your bird gets well soon.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I would think that a bird can bleed to death fairly quickly, so you do need to try to stop the bleeding if you can.
I too would suggest that you apply slight pressure with a q-tip...maybe even apply a small amount of flour to it. Is it in the mouth or throat? I would think that with the moisture in either of those areas, it might be difficult to stop the bleeding and KEEP it stopped. Maybe don't try feeding the bird again for about 24 hours and see if the canker will clear up some. 
good luck.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I notice from a previous post you have taken a bird to Animal General.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=343331&postcount=9

This bird can certainly use their services. 

Cindy


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your advice. I did speak with Wild Bird Fund and they told me basically the same thing you did. Apply pressure with a cotton swab. They also suggested yunnan baiyao powder to help stop the bleeding.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

The bleed did stop and he seems to be okay. The trich has been resistant to everything I've tried, Spartrix, Ronsec, Metronidazole, Trichocure. It may be only slightly better than it was but at least it isn't getting worse. If anyone has any suggestions aside from switching up the medications, I am all ears. Thanks again.


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## kingsley hannah (Jan 9, 2008)

oh does this bird have both Trichinosis and canker?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

rshaud said:


> The bleed did stop and he seems to be okay. The trich has been resistant to everything I've tried, Spartrix, Ronsec, Metronidazole, Trichocure. It may be only slightly better than it was but at least it isn't getting worse. If anyone has any suggestions aside from switching up the medications, I am all ears. Thanks again.


Did you give it liquid metronidazole orally? I had a baby with canker that the spartrix didn't help. I got the liquid metronidazole from my vet to give her orally once a day for 5 days. The canker was better, but not gone in the five days, so I had to continue the treatment for sveral days longer. Maybe you need to do that.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

When I said trich, I meant trichomoniasis which is another term for canker. Apologies for the confusion.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have you given the liquid metronidazole orally? Because it is much better than putting it in the water, as you can't be sure of how much the bird is drinking, and therefore, how much medicine he is getting.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Could be you don't have the correct dose or are not treating long enough.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

First I did Ronsec, then Spartrix, then Trichocure. I did get the liquid Metronidazole from Wild Bird Fund at Animal General and used it for seven days. Then I did the Ronsec again and now I'm back to the Spartrix. I've been tube feeding him Kaytee Exact mixed with plain Pedialyte all along. Today I tried offering him some very small seed as his throat seemed fairly clear. He was interested but had some trouble eating it. One thing that concerns me is that his tongue has been a grey color since I picked him up. He doesn't move it around much and it looks like it may be partially detached. Wild Bird Fund examined him but didn't mention anything about that aside from the odd color. I'm very careful around his tongue when I tube feed him. Has anyone seen this before?


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

Wild Bird Fund had me giving .1 ml of the liquid Metronidazole twice a day for 7 days. They don't often use it but since there was no success with the other meds, they decided we should try it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think I'd stay with the liquid metronidazole a bit longer. Do you know how much the bird weighs, and how much are you giving it?


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

And yes, it was orally.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

The dosage was based on his weight. Wild Bird Fund are licensed wildlife rehabilitators operating out of Animal General, a veterinary practice on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. They are also affiliated with The Center for Avian and Exotic Medicine which is next door to Animal General. It is a pretty good team there and I put great faith in them. It is just that this trich bird has been very frustrating and I'd like to hear from you all and see if you've had a similar experience and what may have worked for you.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

rshaud said:


> The dosage was based on his weight. Wild Bird Fund are licensed wildlife rehabilitators operating out of Animal General, a veterinary practice on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. They are also affiliated with The Center for Avian and Exotic Medicine which is next door to Animal General. It is a pretty good team there and I put great faith in them. It is just that this trich bird has been very frustrating and I'd like to hear from you all and see if you've had a similar experience and what may have worked for you.


I have heard that there is a resistant strain in some parts of the US. I know you are doing the best you can.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The Metronidazole dose that you were advised to give seems extremely low! I have the British Small Animal Veterinary Association Manual of Raptors, Pigeons and Passerine birds in front of me. For pigeons they recommend 40 - 50mg/kg q24h (ie every 24 hours) for 5-7 days, 100 mg/kg orally q48 x 3 or 200mg/kg orally once.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

We don't know the strength of metronidazole they mixed up...do we?


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> One thing that concerns me is that his tongue has been a grey color since I picked him up. He doesn't move it around much and it looks like it may be partially detached.


I have a bird here who had trich that appeared to colonize only her tongue. After a few days, her tongue fell out. She lives here now and can swallow fine as long as she has a dish to supply her with a steady stream of seeds.

Also, it's possible this might be pox you're dealing with rather than trich.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm afraid I don't know the strength of the liquid Metronidazole. I'll be at Animal General tomorrow so I'll definitely find out.
I, too, have considered the possibility that it might be pox. It does present as trich, the feathers on the right half of his face are puffed up and the nodules in his mouth and throat have been on that side. But I do know that nothing is certain.
Jenfer, are you saying that a bird with limited or no use of his tongue would be ultimately unreleasable?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> We don't know the strength of metronidazole they mixed up...do we?


That is true, and there is always the possibility that they created their own suspension by crushing a tablet in water. It would have to be checked if we were to recommend a dosage in ml per kg. My reasoning is that it is liquid and so I would expect it to be the FlagylS suspension, that has 200mg Metronidazole per 5ml...My maths isn't very good but I reckon that 0.1 ml would contain 4 mg metronidazole. If the bird was 250 gms that would equate to 16 mg per kg/bw.

It could, however, be the intravenous solution that I use, which has 500mg in 100ml. I calculate that would have 0.5 mg in 0.1 ml, equating to 2 mg/kg bodyweight for a 250 mg pigeon.

What I was thinking is that rshaud should ask what the dosage of 0.1 ml represents in terms of mg per kg.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

On the canker versus pox question, does it smell like canker?


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Jenfer, are you saying that a bird with limited or no use of his tongue would be ultimately unreleasable?


Not necessarily. Depends on you and the bird and what you feel comfortable with. In my case, I did worry that she would not be able to swallow whatever pieces of food she could find on her own outside without her tongue, but this bird was also happy to be indoors (I found her just at the cusp of cold weather, so I would have likely held her over winter anyway), and was mated to an unreleaseable bird, which made the decision to keep her easier.

How long have you been treating for trich now? I've had cases that take weeks to fully resolve.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

Feefo, the liquid Metronidazole was dark-colored and the bottle is kept refrigerated. It was not a tablet dissolved in water. The woman at Wild Bird Fund specifically told me I should use the liquid, not the tablets. I'll be sure to double check with them tomorrow on the specifics. I'd be more than pleased to try it again.
I don't know if I'd know the canker "smell" or not. He's in for the night so I will make a point to check in the morning. Can you describe the smell?
Jenfer, I picked this bird up on June 17th. I know that some strains can take a long time to respond to treatment. 
I'd never release him if I didn't think that he could eat on his own. I'm happy to help them out until they are ready to be released again but I'm not interested in keeping any birds as permanent pets. As we live in a Brooklyn apartment, there isn't loads of space for keeping birds. Of course, nothing is written in stone, right?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Canker smells bad.


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