# Tattered, bloody pigeon can't eat



## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

There's been a pigeon we decided to name Bandit frequenting our balcony lately and he's maybe around seven to eight months old. He came regularly for a time, but then missed four days of attendance, and when he came back to us after that, he was a pretty ghastly sight.

A lot of his feathers seem to have been torn out, especially about his head and neck, where there are signs of blood on the back of the neck. He has one roughly circular 'dent' in the back of his head, his feathers dingy now (where the tips of his wings used to be perfectly white), and most importantly, he can't seem to properly open his beak.

He's learned to eat from a human hand, and so we tried to feed him, as he came back looking as if he hadn't eaten for the entirety of the four days he was gone, but he'd come down, look at the hand, then back off. We tried just putting the seeds on the floor and, while no one bullied him during the feeding frenzy and he could've easily eaten, he had incredible difficulty in the attempt. He managed to pick up one seed, and then it got stuck in his beak and he could barely manage to get it out.

He seems like he's blind in the left eye, too, as he flies with his head straight up now so he can turn it about easier to steer his flight. He turns the right side toward something he wants to examine and his left eye looks abnormally dark, almost like dried blood.

Regrettably, I have no pictures at this time, but do these symptoms give anyone any ideas as to just what happened? Is he ill or did something get a hold of him? Is there any way we can help him?

Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You wouldn't have gotten all that damage from an illness in four days. That's not to say that he's not suffering from an illness, too, but he's obviously gotten hurt. Where are you, anyhow?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For most of the rehabbers, it'd be a matter of providing support by way of tube-feeding for the time being while you address the other issues. If you're near a Home Depot or a Lowe's and have access to a feed store or other pet supply place, we can probably get you fixed up pretty easily.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's a link to show techniques and equipment (the most readily-available and inexpensive stuff) for tube-feeding:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235

You'll also have to get some powdered food like this:

http://www.kaytee.com/products/exact/?pid=47511

...which should also be available in your area. There are other brands and you're in Canada, somewhere, so you might need to look for one of those others. They're going to be in the same place in the same store, whichever one they carry. 

Now, there's always the possibility that he's contracted something due to his weakened state like trichomoniasis so it'd be a good idea to look down his beak. I guess you're going to have to catch him first, huh?

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

draykie said:


> There's been a pigeon we decided to name Bandit frequenting our balcony lately and he's maybe around seven to eight months old. He came regularly for a time, but then missed four days of attendance, and when he came back to us after that, he was a pretty ghastly sight.
> 
> *A lot of his feathers seem to have been torn out, especially about his head and neck, where there are signs of blood on the back of the neck. He has one roughly circular 'dent' in the back of his head, his feathers dingy now (where the tips of his wings used to be perfectly white), and most importantly, he can't seem to properly open his beak.*
> *He's learned to eat from a human hand*, and so we tried to feed him, as he came back looking as if he hadn't eaten for the entirety of the four days he was gone, but he'd come down, look at the hand, then back off. We tried just putting the seeds on the floor and, while no one bullied him during the feeding frenzy and he could've easily eaten, he had incredible difficulty in the attempt. *He managed to pick up one seed, and then it got stuck in his beak and he could barely manage to get it out.*
> ...


There could be several things going on. It's very possible he has developed canker, a condition where they develope a 'cottage cheese' appearing matter in their mouth, throat & sometimes internally where we are unable to detect it. Canker can hinder eating, which eventually causes them to become grounded, making him easy prey for predators.

Could you catch & isolate him, if you haven't already done so?
Provided below is the link to the 'basic life saving steps' thread. Please follow these initial steps accordingly, as they are vital. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

Could you also:
Gently open his beak & take a peek. The mouth should be nice & pink, free of any obstructions.
Check his keel (breast) bone. There should be a sufficient amount of muscle on each side. 

Look forward to an update. 

Cindy


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Upon a closer inspection, Bandit seems to have a straight gash across the back of his neck, like a claw or a talon slashed him there. There's a lot of missing feathers exposing his skin there, which is bloody and dark, while there's one spot on the back of his head where a few feathers have been ripped out and it's left bare. It seems his left eye, or the 'globe'-type thing over it, is also covered in blood and might be why he can't see out of it.

It doesn't seem like an illness so much as a pretty bad injury, possibly from a crow or a hawk. I'm not sure where he would've been for four days absent like that and it seems like it may be difficult to catch him, as he still flies, albeit not well. He definitely would have issues with being tube fed and I don't know if it's possible to hold him down like those videos showed. The pigeons in those seemed very tame, while Bandit is a feral pigeon.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Appreciate you speedy update.  

First & foremost, the bird needs to be caught. Since he is still flying, that can pose a problem.  
Keep feeding him as usual & hopefully he will put his guard down long enough for you to catch him.  

In the meantime, please do review this thread & follow the steps once the bird has been successfully secured. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

Most importantly, the bird needs to be stabilized with supplement heat in order for him to regain *& *maintain his normal body temperature. This *must* be done prior to giving any fluids or food. 

Wishing you luck in catching him.  

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cindy's right about needing to catch this bird ASAP.....if a predator attack
this jouvenile may very well need antibiotics in addition to other supportive
care. Do you feed these birds everyday and is this food that is left there all 
day?

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Drakey,

The pigeon in my video is actually a feisty feral who has been wing slapping me today but I have used that method on the squirmiest of wild ferals. The main thing is to wrap then in a towel (phil calls it a tpwel burrito) first.

As an alternative to tube feeding you can hand feed as in this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

I hope that you manage to catch him soon. If he is unable to eat he will grow weaker, maybe that will work to your advantage.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Ditto on getting this bird out of harms way. 

Here is a list of possible rehabbers to help, since we don't know where you ar located.

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit's currently off flying somewhere because something scared him, but what with the bad winds we've been getting lately, I can't help but worry a little about his impaired flight.

I've never kept birds in my home before, so I really don't have a cage or any sort of suitable pen for a pigeon. I'm not sure what the best thing would be to get for him, either - just a normal old bird cage, or maybe just a box might work. He's taken to going inside a box we've put outside for warmth during the night, so it probably wouldn't be too difficult to catch him; it's mostly the handling that I'd worry about.

Also, I'm in Winnipeg, Manitoba.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is a link to a box you can set up to hopefully catch him.

With his injuries he needs help as quickly as possible.

http://www.racingbirds.com/ptrap.html


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

draykie said:


> *He's taken to going inside a box we've put outside for warmth during the night*, so it probably wouldn't be too difficult to catch him; it's mostly the handling that I'd worry about.
> 
> Also, I'm in Winnipeg, Manitoba.


This may be easier than first thought.  
Pigeons don't see well at night. Perhaps once he's settled in for the night, you can ever so cautiously go out & place something over the box & get him inside. Once inside, we can help you get him settled.

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> This may be easier than first thought.
> Pigeons don't see well at night. Perhaps once he's settled in for the night, you can ever so cautiously go out & place something over the box & get him inside. Once inside, we can help you get him settled.
> 
> Cindy


I was thinking the same thing....possibly a blanket folded in half to make the
size managable and give it a little extra weight for tossing. I've actually tossed
blankets and coats over injured/sick ferals to catch during the day time and
successfully secured them for rehab. The box-trap also works well, but if
the bird is acclimated to an existing box it may be better to try working with 
that first. Don't want to risk getting it's antenna up. If you can visualize
being successful w/your plan, it's usually successful.

Folks around here get pretty resourceful in making temporary shelters
for ferals once indoors for their rehab journey. That's down the road though,
see if you can quietly move in on the bird tonight once it has settled in for the night.

fp


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

So, he came back to the box and went in, and we closed it off for the night. But around a half hour ago, I heard this repetitive, dull banging outside my window, so I went to look on the balcony and it turns out Bandit was flying around into the box's walls and roof repeatedly, throwing a fit.

We had to let him out, but it's worth mentioning that I put some ground-up sunflower seeds in the box for him. I'm not sure if they're gone now, as other pigeons sleep on our balcony as well and I don't want to disturb them, but when he came out, he was walking a lot straighter and even shook out the powder in his feathers, although he did almost fall over in the process. He plodded about the balcony for a bit, then flew away to the roof as far as I know.

Also, it doesn't seem like it'll be possible to take Bandit inside my home for an extended period of time. I live in a no-pets apartment to begin with, and also we don't have the supplies to take care of a bird. We don't know if he might be carrying an infection or some bugs along with his injury that might contract to the household if he were introduced, either. It was a thought to bring him to the vet tomorrow morning, but his fit kind of ruined that.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

is there anywhere reputable you can take this bird?? also, if you bring him inside, he's not really a pet per-se, as much as he is a guest. getting ANYTHING from a pigeon is so so rare. i dont know anyone on this site that has had a problem with that.
is there a member on this site up there somewhere?? can you call around to find a place for him?? the bird is just scared, so dont take it personal that he threw a fit, especially considering what he has been through. he picked you for a reason though, and i believe that they come to us for a reason, and there is always something we can do above and beyond to help another creature. so he probably senses in you that you're a safe haven and will help him. you're off to a good start. just see it through. good luck!!!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i looked up a few numbers online. i'm sure they can at least point you in the right direction. just catch the bird in the box again. let him flail about, just make sure the box is in a secure location where it wont fall off of patio. put a towel in box, and cover box with towel. if you could leave him in box and even put him in your bathroom is safer then outside already trapped for predators.
i dont know if any of these places deals with pigeons, what the policies are, but you have to call and feel it out.

Manitoba wildlife rehab organization (they MIGHT be able to pick up bird)
204 883 2122

winnipeg foundation
204 944 9474

manitoba wildlife federation
204 633 5967

fort whyte centre
204 989 8355

Humane society
204 982 2021

D' Arcy's animal rescue center
204 888 2266

please let us know what happens. Thanks again for helping this bird, and get it somewhere ASAP.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

It may not be necessary to take him into the vet after all. He seems to have snuck into the box when we weren't watching last evening and slept in there all night. This morning, we fed the birds as usual their sunflower seeds, and Bandit came charging at full speed out of the box into the flock. They seem completely horrified at the way he looks, though - he'll come near and they'll run in the opposite direction, turning their heads over their shoulders to stare, but they won't go beside him anymore.

So, as such, he got the whole of the food to himself and he ate whole sunflower seeds for some 20 minutes straight. He's also developed a strategy of stuffing his gullet as much as he can, then running back to the safety of his box to rest, and that seems to be doing him quite well. He walks straight now, he's a lot stronger, he's flying a lot more, and he's a bit more alert (that is, he'll actually look up at me if I approach the window now).

He's gone for a fly now, for no reason other than it seems that he wanted to fly. He doesn't seem to be much inclined to eating from the hand anymore, but he eats snow and shovels down food like it's going out of style. So, he may be okay after all.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for your update.

Sounds like he is feeling better. It would still be good if a rehabber or avian vet could have a look at him.

Please continue to keep an attentive eye out should he need help, and we appreciate all you are doing to help him.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ya, i agree with Treesa, i would keep an eye on him and maybe someone could even come over to look at him. i'd try to call around to see what they say. THANKS SO MUCH for taking care for this little guy, and let us know what heppens with him.
it seems like you have him as a pet anyways!! just an outdoor one!!!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the update.

It is great to know that he is able to eat properly now and that he is on the mend.

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

We've been practically babysitting Bandit because, while most of the pigeons are utterly freaked out by his sexy battle scars, some will still pick on him to steal the food he has a hard time downing. He tends to take a while to eat, snapping up one seed, then bobbing his head quickly back and forth to stuff it down. It usually works. He'll drop a lot of seeds, but he'll also swallow a lot, and then retreat to his box afterward for refuge.

Bandit's also flying around a lot more, still with his head up, and he's managed to retain the skill at flight he had before this incident. He's like a Superman of pigeons - he flies tall buildings in a single bound, no sweat. He's also returned to being a pugilist - anyone who comes too close to him and his food for too long gets a full-fledged face attack. It's kind of cute what a huge smattering of blood, missing feathers, and a mad ferocity can do on the fear factor.

Is it likely that his feathers will ever regrow? Will he ever look normal again and will his eyesight ever repair? I'm going to assume it was a hawk that hit him, but somehow got scared off or something, so judging from that.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Is it likely that his feathers will ever regrow? Will he ever look normal again and will his eyesight ever repair


If his feathers were plucked out , which is likely if he was caught by a hawk, then they will regrow quickly.

As for his sight , it depends on the damage. I took in a collared dove that had a frightening black mass instead of an eye. I treated him with antibiotics and bathed the eye with an eyebath made up of warm water and tincture of euphrasia. Eventually hie eye surfaced from the mess and revealed that he had a tear in the lower lid that had bled and formed a scar.

Bandit will be at a tremendous disadvantage if he has only one eye to look out for predators and traffic. I have three one-eyed pigeons in my aviary and they are easily blinsided. As he nests in the balcony would it be possible to bathe his eye at least once a day after dark?

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

He's incredibly squirmy, especially now that he's gotten a lot of his strength back through rest and food, so it probably wouldn't be possible to grab him, much less bathe him.

Two days or so ago, I tried to pick him up in a warm cloth and he flew right into my face in a panic. That wasn't very fun.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Oh my, he sounds quite hyper, have you checked the trap link?


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit's skin seems to be healing over. Where there was blood and dark blotches at the back of his neck, it's now becoming slightly pink where the skin's coming back, which is probably good.

On the other hand, he's still having difficulty eating. He'll pick up a seed, then have to stand up straight and bob his head back and forth quickly to try and stuff it down his gullet, but ends up dropping it about 90% of the time. He also seems to have some sort of slimy stuff in his mouth now, because he often opens his mouth wide after he eats, and there's a big string of it from his upper beak to the lower. Not sure if that's quite as good.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> He also seems to have some sort of slimy stuff in his mouth now, because he often opens his mouth wide after he eats, and there's a big string of it from his upper beak to the lower.


He could have canker. Would it be possible to medicate him with Spartrix?

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Today, Bandit cheated death again.

A hawk dove at him on our balcony when all the other pigeons knew to fly or scramble for their houses four minutes before its arrival, and Bandit simply sat there. Finally, he became alert and flew for his box, but the hawk caught him in mid-air and slammed him into the wall, but in the attempt, also banged its own head and caused a delay that saved Bandit's life. He tried again, but my dad opened the door quick and scared the hawk off.

However, when the door opened and the hawk left, Bandit went into panic mode and flew around blindly. This caused him to fly right into our suite. He scrambled around, panicked, for a few minutes, flying into walls and around the kitchen and the door in an attempt to escape before we managed to put a cloth over him to calm him down and catch him. I'm not sure whether it was by the hawk's attack or by running into things while he flew about the house, but Bandit bled a small bit into the cloth as well. His heartbeat and breathing were rapid at first, but eventually calmed down to the point where he was assumed dead.

At first, we let him into a small plastic box, because we weren't willing to put him back outside after something like that happened. He came back to life within about ten minutes and we put some various seeds in the box with him, which he went after eagerly. He has immense difficulty getting the seeds down his throat. He'll take them into his mouth, shake his head about furiously, then either end up throwing the seed somewhere or spitting it back out to try again. He eventually does get it down, though, after 'drooling' on it a little. He also took the opportunity to poop a few times in a few hours in the box.

We've moved him to a much larger box now, and we keep the lid a bit open so he can have light in there with him. He has a small cup of water that he doesn't seem too enthused about and a lot of seeds that keep him pecking around 80% of the time. He had a small nap earlier and has managed to eat quite a few seeds, which include sunflower (seems to be his favourite, as he'll actively pursue them instead of the others), and a wild pigeon/dove mix.

Bandit seems to keep his right eye closed more often than open, even when his left is open. It's a bit paler of an orange than his other eye is, too, and he's already made a valiant attempt to escape the box through its sunlight crack. Little brat he is...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The difficulty swallowing seed and the head shaking could well indicate canker. Given the trauma from today and the possible canker, I think Bandit needs to be kept safely inside. Can you gently open the beak and have a look in the mouth and opening of the throat to see if there are any cottage cheesy looking growths there? If so, the bird has canker and needs to be treated for it.

Please let us know what you find when you examine the mouth and throat.

Terry


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Medication for canker would certainly help.
Even if it isn't canker, spartrix will not harm the bird.

Is there a way to get spartrix in your area ?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Draykie, I'm sure that an anti-canker is available in your area--the problem is usually finding an over-the-counter source. As there are many different drugs of which a few are preferable, sometimes you have to settle for what's easily obtainable. I'd suggest trying to find Metronidazole because you might have an aquarium supply store in Winnipeg that might have it marketed as "FishZole". Another name for it is "Flagyl" and you can bet that it's at a pharmacy near you for human use. If you're REALLY good friends with your pharmacist, you might be able to beg a single 250 milligram tablet out of them. Hopefully, you can make that work in the very near future. Otherwise, you might try PMing or emailing Jazaroo since he's in Canada and knows the ins and outs of getting medications there:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/member.php?u=5611

Of course, a vet is also an option.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Draykie,

I actually PMed' you yesterday about sending you out some meds for Bandit, but I have not received a reply, perhaps your private messaging is not set up right or you are unsure how to access it. In any event, if you want to PM me your mailing information I will be happy to send you out meds for this bird.

All the best,

Ron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Ron, thank you, you're an angel. You have saved so many pijies.

Reti


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm going to give Bandit's mouth a look to see if it is canker, by the look of his throat and such. Hopefully, he won't be too fussy, but he's still a spirited little blighter.

I'm also going to look for Spartrix, FishZol, and Flagyl if he does look to be having some canker-y issues. If I can't find anything, jazaroo, I'll likely be bugging your PMs soon.

One thing I've been wondering, though - if Bandit has trouble consuming sunflower seeds, how will he be able to orally take a Flagyl tablet or something of the sort? Is it possible to grind the pill up into water and get that down his throat instead? I have a feeling he'd choke otherwise.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

draykie said:


> Is it possible to grind the pill up into water and get that down his throat instead? I have a feeling he'd choke otherwise.


You can do that. Grind up the tablet, mix with water and syringe it down. You can add a drop of light Karo so it goes down even easier.

Reti


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Well, I just managed, with a lot of squirmy protest from Bandit, to examine his mouth and throat. Other than a ton of sticky spit, he doesn't seem to have anything out of the ordinary down there. His 'cheeks', on either side of the base of his tongue, were a little whitish-pink, but mostly pink, and his throat seems to be a bit small. But I'm not an expert on pigeon anatomy, so I'm not sure if it was a normal size or not.

I may try the meds just for luck. I also got a good look at Bandit's neck wound while holding him and it seems his feathers are starting to grow back. There's a lot of crusty yellowy stuff that seems to be flaking off his neck, making it expose either what looks to be the back of his skull or a bit of pinkish meat.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

To add, we haven't given Bandit much to digest his food with, like gravel or shells. He's never seemed to be a big fan of the oyster shells we have or the egg shells we sometimes give him. Would sand, like the sand used to make ice less slippery to walk over, be a fair substitute to stick in his box?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

draykie said:


> Well, I just managed, with a lot of squirmy protest from Bandit, to examine his mouth and throat.
> * *Other than a ton of sticky spit*, he doesn't seem to have anything out of the ordinary down there. His 'cheeks', on either side of the base of his tongue, were a little whitish-pink, but mostly pink, and his throat seems to be a bit small. But I'm not an expert on pigeon anatomy, so I'm not sure if it was a normal size or not.
> 
> I may try the meds just for luck. I also got a good look at Bandit's neck wound while holding him and it seems his feathers are starting to grow back.
> ** *There's a lot of crusty yellowy stuff that seems to be flaking off his neck, making it expose either what looks to be the back of his skull or a bit of pinkish meat*.


* Is the 'sticky spit' kind of thick, like mucous? The reason I'm asking is, even though you didn't detect any canker, often times pigeons that have canker will get a collection of mucous in their mouth, making it very difficult for them to eat. I'm not saying that's what's going on, it's just a thought.

** Any chance of getting a picture of this?

Cindy


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit's spitty stuff is clear and maybe just a little thicker than what I might expect, but not to an alarmingly noticeable extent. He'll often, when eating, get the seed hanging out of his mouth, suspended by the saliva.

I also looked up pictures of canker in pigeons and got one here: http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Pics/Trichmouth.jpg

That's not what Bandit's throat looks like at all. It's clear and pink with the little hole behind his tongue. I'll try to get a picture of his neck the next time I hold him, but right now he's making a valiant attempt to eat and guzzling down his water pretty well, so I'll leave him be.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Two more things.

If it is canker and Bandit's given medication for it, how long before it clears up and he's good to be released again?

And if it isn't canker and he's treated with Spartrix, FishZol, Flagyl, or any other canker medication anyway, will it harm him?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

draykie said:


> Two more things.
> 
> If it is canker and Bandit's given medication for it, how long before it clears up and he's good to be released again?
> 
> And if it isn't canker and he's treated with Spartrix, FishZol, Flagyl, or any other canker medication anyway, will it harm him?


Possibly 5 to 10 days on the first. No, to the second, as long as the dosage is correct. Either the package or somebody here can help you with that when the time comes. 

Another thought, for the moment you might try cutting the larger seeds up and see if he'll eat them in pieces. It might help in the interim.

Pidgey


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Good idea. He never ate the tiny seeds we gave him because I assume he's a spoiled brat and only likes his sunflowers best, but now he has cut-up sunflowers in there and he's already going at them.

Concerning his spit problem, it seems to sometimes be so excessive that, when he throws his seeds around, they stick to the walls of his box or his feathers. Kind of gross.

Would sand function as a reliable substitute for gravel/shells for Bandit right now? Maybe that's what he needs.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In point of fact, they don't have to have grit in order to grind stuff up--the seeds will get pounded together and do it too. My Unie almost refuses to eat the stuff (grit). She's blind and kinda' has her own way. It's better if they have them but not so important that if they don't, they're going to die in front of your eyes. A lot of the grit that we feed is almost as much important for the minerals that it provides, anyhow.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are several reasons why they can have viscous spit but I don't keep that kind of information in my head. Don't worry, it'll get posted soon though as somebody's bound to look it up and spell it out.

Pidgey


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit is getting a lot stronger, as an update. We'll likely be going to see if we can find his medications today, so hopefully he won't be too strong and wriggle away during the application.

The last two days, he's been making valiant attempts at escaping his box, one which ended up almost successful, getting him stuck within the gap of the box lid and its edge. Turns out he's devised a plan of standing on top his water cup for height, then trying to fly out of the box. Little brat.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How's his swallowing doing? Is it getting any easier for him? You need to be careful that he doesn't have a way to kill himself trying to get out of there. We've had some really close calls on here before with birds that have stuck their heads out of bars and back around through the wrong hole in such a way as to get wedged because they then fought too hard trying to pull their heads back out. They don't typically stop and think of how to get out of a mess, they just struggle harder.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> He has immense difficulty getting the seeds down his throat. He'll take them into his mouth, shake his head about furiously, then either end up throwing the seed somewhere or spitting it back out to try again


Pigeons that have canker in the mouth will be "spitty" and spit it out, this is because they can't swallow it. But Bandit's mouth is clear. To me this sounds like the seed tossing associated with Paramyxovirus. Does he behave like the pigeon in the video that this link leads to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWC58llOBzQ

You also mentioned his small throat. When I first looked in a pigeon's mouth I didn't realise that the first opening, which is at the base of the tongue, is the trachea. The throat is behind this. If you look at the picture in this link http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/canker.htm, the area covered by the canker nodule is the throat...there is a little gap on the left hand side of the photo which is the part of the throat that remained free of canker.

When giving liquids to a pigeon you must be careful to go well behind the trachea because they could aspirate and die.

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

When Bandit eats, it only slightly resembles the way that pigeon in the video was eating. He will shake his head a little, but he won't toss it back quite so dramatically and he tends to throw his seeds around a lot, covered in spit, causing them to stick to the walls of his box more often than not.

There definitely was nothing in his mouth that looked remotely like that canker mess, though. One side of his tongue looked a little jagged, though; it wasn't a perfect point like the ones in the pictures, if that matters any.

Also, if I'm going to apply any liquid to Bandit's throat, I don't want to end up choking him, obviously. I don't have a syringe to do as much either, and the pet shop didn't sell anything similar to it. Is there a trick to getting the liquid into the throat, rather than unintentionally drowning him?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Why don't you try feeling down his neck from just under the chin and see if there are any suspicious knots or lumps?

How much liquid are we talking about? If it's not too much, you can dribble it in drop by drop and they'll swallow it okay. If you need to get a lot in then it's pretty tedious doing it that way.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

draykie said:


> *Bandit's spitty stuff is clear and maybe just a little thicker than what I might expect*, but not to an alarmingly noticeable extent. *He'll often, when eating, get the seed hanging out of his mouth, suspended by the saliva.*





cyro51 said:


> *Pigeons that have canker in the mouth will be "spitty" and spit it out, this is because they can't swallow it. But Bandit's mouth is clear. To me this sounds like the seed tossing associated with Paramyxovirus*.
> Cynthia


Cynthia,
Since there doesn't seem to be any visible evidence of canker in Bandit's mouth, what would your thoughts be with regard to the excessive 'saliva' in his mouth? Although I've never seen it, could this (the excessive saliva) also be a symptom of PMV?
I'm thinking there's canker lower down & not visible.

Cindy


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit was given another thorough examination today as his box was cleaned out. His neck wound seems to be healing nicely, although all his struggling did manage to break off an unsightly black scab that had formed over a lot of the wound. The bleeding from that accident was very minimal though, so it was likely about to be lost anyway.

Bandit's beak got a cleaning, as he seems to have taken to pecking at his poo sometimes. He avidly took to wing-slapping at me when I tried to pick him up in his little towel, so I assume he's getting stronger, and that can't be bad.

Unfortunately, no one in the area seems to have any canker medications to help Bandit. They actually have never even heard of the medications, much less helping a pigeon with canker. They seemed to become just a little less than pleasant when it was mentioned that the patient in question was a pigeon.  I've PMed Jazaroo back about his offer, so hopefully Bandit can get a little help soon.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Oh, I nearly forgot to mention. I also felt over the front of his neck and his breast and he does have a bit of an odd lump lower down in his neck. It looks like he, as well, has a very minor injury to the center of his breast, which is little more than a small patch of pink beneath the thick cover of feathers.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Draykie,

I sent you out some meds today with a few other things you may need. They will be there tomorrow before noon. I sent you Spartrix, Cipro, Bactrim, Metronidazole and Nystatin and a feeding tube and Kaytee Exact. I did not have time to include instructions, as I was trying to meet the shipping deadline, we can deal with that later. The first thing to do is get one of the Spartrix into Bandit as soon as they arrive as I think it is important to get Bandit started on the anti-canker meds ASAP.

All the best,

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Since there doesn't seem to be any visible evidence of canker in Bandit's mouth, what would your thoughts be with regard to the excessive 'saliva' in his mouth? Although I've never seen it, could this (the excessive saliva) also be a symptom of PMV?
> I'm thinking there's canker lower down & not visible.


I have only seen that in Piglet, he had canker but it was just after the lesions in his mouth had cleared up. He would shake his head and send a gob of mucous flying out. My concern was that canker doesn't rule out PMV but the seed tossing of PMV is very exaggerated as the video demonstrates. So we can rule out PMV.



> Also, if I'm going to apply any liquid to Bandit's throat, I don't want to end up choking him, obviously. I don't have a syringe to do as much either, and the pet shop didn't sell anything similar to it. Is there a trick to getting the liquid into the throat, rather than unintentionally drowning him?


Here is a link to a video on tube feeding. The same principles apply for medicating with a 1ml syringe. And thank you for taking such good care of him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU

And this is a link to a series of pictures showing Terry tube feeding a squab (an adult pigeon won't get excited about it). 

http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL



Ron, you are an angel!



Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I just received all the meds Ron sent and I'm sure if Bandit knew what everyone's been doing for him, he'd send a big thank you out. In any case, I am. I'll be starting the Spartrix with the little guy later on today, when I can get hold of a 1cc dosage syringe.

Thanks again, guys.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Draykie,

I don't know whether you have been doing it or not, but you will have a much easier time medicating and examining Bandit if you wrap him "Burrito" style with a small towel. This where you wrap the towel around him a few times so he becomes the "filling" in the middle, with his head poking out the end. Also, when you get a chance can you describe what his droppings currently look like (such as: how many a day, loose, watery, some yellow, some white, any odour, colour of the solids and so forth). How do his wounds look today, any pussing from them or any other swelling elsewhere that does not seem normal (feel his legs and wings for bumps or swelling, you can compare one side to the other for a sense of normal).

Ron


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

cyro51 said:


> And this is a link to a series of pictures showing Terry tube feeding a squab (an adult pigeon won't get excited about it).
> 
> http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL


I think this link is of Pidgey hand feeding ..  

Terry


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit's just taken down his first day's worth of Spartrix. The pill was ground up and put in a bit of water, then slowly given to him a few drops at a time. His squirming about in the towel, which is wrapped about him burrito-style, broke off another loose scab, but otherwise, the little stems of his feathers are coming back in and his wounds are starting to be covered by a whitish skin healing over.

Bandit's incredibly alert now, compared to when he first came to us. I sometimes check on him as I hear him pecking around in his box and he immediately looks up at me. He seems like he's glaring at me for putting him in there to begin with. He wasn't cooperative with the 1cc syringe at first, but soon enough, he got over it and started to take the water-pill mixture down without much of a fight. He attempted to bite me about twenty times. Did bite me about six times. It was fun.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> broke off another loose scab


It sounds odd but I consider that a good thing. It helps the wound heal from the inside.

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I forgot to reply to whoever asked about Bandit's poop, but it's varied. Most of it is a mix of green and white. It's not too liquidy, but it's moist when first dropped out. He's got some generally solid poops, but most are moist and he seems to enjoy walking through each and every one of them and dirtying his feet.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

draykie said:


> ...and he seems to enjoy walking through each and every one of them and dirtying his feet.


Yes... now that's a symptom that's diagnostically useful--it means that he's got Pigeonitis!

Pidgey


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Poor guy!


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit's on his second day of Spartrix and he was a bit better today, likely because I have a better idea of how to syringe the pill-water into his beak. He seems to be having a bit more luck eating too, as he'll only drop the seed once or twice before picking it up and actually getting it into his mouth, but that may have just been luck too.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

This is encouraging news, please keep us updated.

Ron


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Earlier today, Bandit had his last Spartrix. Hopefully, his eating will get better, as it hasn't seemed to change overly much for the three days he's been medicated, but I'm giving him the recommended 5-10 days more to show any signs of improvement.

While he was held today, I managed to get a feel over his wings and breast, and while his wings are perfectly in shape, his breast still has a small wound on it that's quickly healing over. Other than being quite tattered-looking, the back of his neck is turning a healthy pink as his skin grows back over it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Keep a close eye on that breast wound, he could have a ruptured crop. This happened to a little dove that I rescued, the vet (not the one I trust) told me that the crop was fine even though I told him I thought it was ruptured. A couple of weeks later a sunflower seed made it to the surface. Eventually all the seed that had spilt from the crop came out if the wound and the wound healed up.

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

It's not an incredibly deep wound, but I'll keep an eye on it anyway. It just seems like a few of his feathers are missing from the spot and he was barely scratched, possibly from the hawk colliding with him or pushing him into something.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> he was barely scratched, possibly from the hawk colliding with him or pushing him into something


He is such a lucky pigeon! 

One day I was walking in the wood and heard a thump above me and then a gentle ahower of feathers came down. I loohed up and saw more feathers sticking to a tree trunk. I knew then that a sparrowhawk had thumped a dove against a tree, but they are so quick that I didn't see either bird. I think, and hope, that the dove died instantaneously but still feel responsible as it happened at a spot where I feed the birds.

Cynthia


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Poor dove. 

Bandit's been extremely lucky. We have at least one golden hawk that constantly surveys the area and it's caught him twice - once, when he came back to us to begin with, with a smattering of wounds and the most prominent one at the back of his neck - but, he was still alive.

And the second time, of course, was the one that quite literally forced him into our household. He's got a little guardian angel with him, I think.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

draykie said:


> Poor dove.
> 
> Bandit's been extremely lucky. We have at least one golden hawk that constantly surveys the area and it's caught him twice - once, when he came back to us to begin with, with a smattering of wounds and the most prominent one at the back of his neck - but, he was still alive.
> 
> And the second time, of course, was the one that quite literally forced him into our household. He's got a little guardian angel with him, I think.


If you have a golden hawk making rounds on a regular basis, I certainly wouldn't release him even when he is well. His luck might run out. He has been thru an awful lot.

Thank you for intervening and helping him.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They survive hawks better when they maintain really tight flocks because of the distributed watchfulness. If Bandit tends to stay in smaller groups or on his own, his ultimate chances aren't as good.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i've also heard if you put a great horned owl statue it will scare away the hawks. only thing is, it might scare away pigeons for a while too, but they will figure out it's fake and come back. BUT the hawk will also figure out it is fake, so you have to move it around once in a while. Often, when hawks find a source of constant food (flocks of pigeons) they wont leave.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

I'd love to be able to keep Bandit inside and safe from the hawk, but I live in a no-pets apartment and I've been told there are fines for even feeding pigeons, much less keeping them like I'm doing for Bandit right now. The most I can do is medicate him, keep him under shelter, feed and water him, and then let him free again.

Bandit's box was cleaned out today, and he sat in his little burrito wrap pretty quietly until Grey started cooing outside. This caused him to get a little antsy and try to squirm away, but petting him on the head for about ten minutes straight seemed to calm him down. On the contrary, when he got back in his box again, he started making a high coo and stomping around a little. Maybe he hates me for holding him like that. 

While he was being held, I also noticed a bit of pink, like his skin, just above his cere. It looks like a feather or two may have been pulled out there, but it doesn't look like it ever bled or was enough to impair his eating. He's got a solid hole in the back of his head as well, right down to his skull, but the rest of his wounds are flaking off in scabs or healing over with pink skin and the dark fibers of renewing feathers.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

draykie said:


> He's got a solid hole in the back of his head as well, right down to his skull, but the rest of his wounds are flaking off in scabs or healing over with pink skin and the dark fibers of renewing feathers.


How big is that hole (millimeters, inches, doesn't matter which you use) in the back of his head? I had to suture one up just like that on Saturday. It's pretty easy to do. They take so blasted long to heal on their own that it's just simpler and faster to sew 'em up.

Pidgey


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

It's about half an inch or less wide. Although, I don't think Bandit would be particularly happy with me if I did sew him up. He's already wing-slapped me about twenty times and cooed at me as loud as he can. 

On the bright side, he's eating a lot better and quicker now. We've been giving him the smallest seeds we have, from a bag of Hagen pigeon and dove food, and he enjoys those.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you've got to be the judge of what it is that you're going or not going to do. I'll explain why it can be a problem: it'll have a tendency to keep a scab on there that will be a hindrance to the hole finally closing off. Those kinds of holes have a nasty tendency to rip open further VERY easily if they get snagged on something, but more so when they're fresh than when they've developed a thicker border around them which this one should have begun by now. However, it's still kind of a bad place.

They can heal out into scar tissue which won't grow feathers as long as you debride the wound every couple of days (or even every day). That speeds up the deal, anyhow. They can heal on their own but it just seems to take forever (weeks). The only problem with letting it go that route depends on the local weather. If it gets really cold, then the back of the head can get overly chilled, possibly numbing the brain too much in winter. It just depends on how big that bald spot is. With as much going bad for the little guy that you've already indicated, I sure wouldn't let it go, but that's just me. Stuff like that is so routine for me anymore that I don't think twice about it.

If you're going to consider it, you'd want to use a sock with enough of the toe cut out to allow Bandit's head and neck to stick through, but only that big. The rest of the sock goes over his shoulders and body with his feet and legs pulled straight back and the sock almost going over them. Different birds take that different ways and socks aren't all created equal. If you get a good match, he'll be well and truly immobilized. You can set the entire sock/pijjurito onto a towel that's been worked into a donut and you've got a real nice presentation to work with. I did it this last Saturday night to one.

I doubt that a real suture is an option so you can use plain cotton thread and the smallest, sharpest sewing needle that you can find. You'd need to take sterile tweezers and remove any scab material stuck to the wound before you pull the edges together. It's right if it all looks a little bloody. You'll want to leave long tails on each suture so that you can easily find them later to remove them. You probably only need about three of them, maybe four, and you'd want to put one in the middle and work outwards. You should make sure that the edges will pull together by way of trying to push them together with your fingers first. About all you need to do is tie the suture ends in an overhand knot and then another to get it tied. Another thing would be that you'll only want to tighten the knot enough to bring the edges together--you don't want to keep tightening it after you see them pull up close.

The whole thing will be closed and sealed up within three or four days on them if you do it right. They heal incredibly fast. There are webpages that I can post that show a little about tying sutures if you want.

Pidgey


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Luckily for Bandit, the winter's starting to go out and the snow's all beginning to melt. It's a bit windy out, but it's becoming very warm as it turns to spring, so he should be alright if he's released and that spot hasn't fully healed yet.

I still plan on keeping him inside for at least two or so more weeks, or longer if he needs different meds, so the pidge-stitches shouldn't be necessary. The rest of his wound is healing very nicely, despite the yellow scabby stuff that's coming off day-by-day with a little bit of contact by his towel burrito. Most of it's getting covered up by pink skin and little feather fibers.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit seems to be steadily getting better. His attempts at escaping become stronger and more frequent everyday and he's apparently taken to cooing at everything that moves, even in his sleep. It's a little odd and hard to sleep with, but at least he's doing better than he was when he first came to us.

I watched him eat today and he also seems to be doing better with that. He still drops the seeds sometimes and this gets him angry with his food dish, causing him to drag it all around his box and hit it hard with his beak. At least, I think that's why he does that. He did manage to clear a whole dish in about 20 minutes today, whereas it usually took about two hours in the past.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds like progress.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Draykie, thanks for the update, sounds quite positive.

Ron


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Something I've been concerned about for when we release Bandit is his flight. Before we took him in, he'd fly really sluggishly, with his head straight up in the air. This is likely to make him easy prey for a hawk, so what kinds of things can cause a pigeon to do that? It's as if he's got impaired eyesight, but from the time he's spent with us, that much is untrue.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Draykie,

I am not sure what would cause bandit to fly as you describe, perhaps the nature and place of his wounds, maybe others may know.

What you can do, is if he is feeling better, is to let him exercise by free flying him a little every day. I don't know your situation, but what I do is after sundown, where I can turn off the lights to make a room go dark, is have a bird fly around a room I bird proofed, this is making sure there are no objects or other things a bird could land on or fly into and cause injury (also draw the drapes so he does not fly into a window). They usually fly from one side of the room to the other as I approach them. When they are done I just turn off the lights and walk over and pick them up as they do not see well in the dark, you can also use a towel to throw over them if need be. This way you will get an idea how he is currently flying and give him a chance to exercise.

Ron


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Draykie,
A pigeon's brain is actually located at the back of his head, so to speak. The fore and top part of the skull is actually taken up with the eyes, so the only room it has is at the back. That is, if I understood your post description, exactly where this hole or gash is located. It is entirely possible that your Bandit has suffered some injury to the optic nerve, a common occurance with humans who suffer a blow to the head. He may be blind or partially blind in one eye and when he flies with his head straight up he may well be trying to see with that one good eye. If he is walking around and if you have a small bright penlight, you can experiment by bring the light up from behind on one side or the other and see how quickly he notices it. If he is blind in one eye he has zero chance of survival.
Ignore these people who try to tell you about keeping a wild pigeon is against the law. The pigeon is not a protected bird in any state in the union in America and also many European countries as well. That simply means that possession is lawful. Please let us know what you intend to do; do not put it down or let anybody talk you into doing that.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Jazaroo: I wish I could do that, as it seems like something Bandit would really appreciate, but I don't have enough room in my apartment suite to be able to give him that opportunity. The only doored rooms are the bathroom, a small closet, and two furnished bedrooms.

Grimaldy: It's not so much that it's against the law to keep a pigeon, but more that my apartment is a no-pets apartment and the caretaker's already received apparently numerous complaints about a 'pigeon infestation', so I'm not sure he'd appreciate Bandit's situation. I did test him today with a flashlight in his box and he responded very quickly to the light - and then, he got mad at me, and started cooing.  I'm hoping the fact that his wound is healing over will help his flight, because he was cut pretty badly about his neck and now it's almost entirely pink and fiber-y. I was holding him while his box was being cleaned out yesterday and I gave him a little pet at the base of his neck, where a lot of his feathers are starting to grow back, and he turned his head quickly and tried to bite me. Maybe it's a little sore, but hopefully in another week or so, he'll be good to go.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Draykie, I actually do some of this flying at times in my bedroom, the bird flies from wife's dresser and then back to mine (removing things of course like I said that a bird will knock over or may get hurt by).

Ron


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

We're hoping to release Bandit tomorrow or Wednesday. Likely tomorrow. He's raring to go and coos back at the pigeons on my balcony outside when they're talking to their mates or fighting with each other. And they hear him. And they coo back. And then he gets mad and flies into the box's walls. And it gets really loud and unorthodox.

So! It's supposed to be warm tomorrow, with a chance for light rain, and I'm sure he's hurting for a bath by now. Go go Bandit.


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

And Bandit's out. He's already been chased around by a few more dominant pigeons and they still seem a little afraid of him because his neck feathers aren't fully reformed yet, but he flies with his head down a bit more now. He seemed a little confused at first, but eventually he got his bearings and he's flying around on a full crop.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sending my best wishes for a full and happy life for Bandit, I pray he does well.

Thanks for the update.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Squeaks and I are flying by to wish our best to Bandit!

We hope he finds a mate and has a long and happy life!

I know he will join with us in saying THANKS for all you have done!!


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## draykie (Dec 14, 2006)

Bandit came back while I was out to sleep on our balcony overnight. He's snuggled up in a corner, out of the wind, in a little alcove-type thing in the banister bars. My guess is that another pigeon about his age that sleeps under them chased him into that corner before it got too dark to keep fighting, but he looks comfy and tuckered out, so he must've exercised well.


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