# No Corn ??



## Flying LV (Oct 7, 2008)

Does anyone feed a racing ration with no corn? I picked up a bag of 17% Prograin today since the store is closer. Not sure how I feel about it. They also had Nutriblend pellets, which I fed to the breeders with young and am thinking of feeding to the racers. Any thoughts?


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Pellets will fatten them up and cause more harm than good IMO.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Pellets will fatten them up and cause more harm than good IMO.


I don't believe that for a second!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I feed popcorn year round. some only feed corn in the winter for extra carbs and calories .


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I have studied a few racing blends from those in Belg and NL. One consistent in the blends is corn at about 25% and low protein levels at 12 to 14%. My thoughts are that the blend is so you can add your amount of corn to the blend. Corn gives the birds energy. Protein is your enemy when it comes to racing. 17% in my opinion and some of the better racers in Belg is way to high. Secrets of Champions has a good feed section at the end of one of the discs. That and looking at base blends of some of the greats I mix a blend for the offseason that would work pretty good for a base race mix. If you see a bunch of peas you are too heavy in your mix. 
I mix:
50lbs bag of 17% Excello breeder no corn
50lbs Excello Premium 14%
50lbs corn
25lbs wheat
25lbs milo

Works great and the birds stay lean in the offseason. Should work as a good base race mix also. The light grains are the carbs that give the birds energy.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Flying LV said:


> Does anyone feed a racing ration with no corn? I picked up a bag of 17% Prograin today since the store is closer. Not sure how I feel about it. They also had Nutriblend pellets, which I fed to the breeders with young and am thinking of feeding to the racers. Any thoughts?


If it were me I would buy two bags of this, and then add corn, milo, wheat, barley etc to lower the protein level and increase the carb level for the racers. This to me would be a good breeding mix. If you feed just this mix, I would think they would take two laps and then sit on the landing board. You thin the mix and they will fly all day. Some even add rice for water retention and to lighten the mix. Find what the guy who wins every week is feeding his racers. Emulate them.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> I don't believe that for a second!


I really don't care what you believe I just stated my opinion.


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## Flying LV (Oct 7, 2008)

I agree with 17% being to high for racing on. I did plan on adding about 10-15% corn to the ration, I was just wondering why would anyone use a ration without corn. Right now they are loft flying fine and I plan on switching to a 14% once I start road training the first week of August and then I adjust the mix for race distance once they start. 

Thanks for all the responses, keep'em coming.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Flying LV said:


> I agree with 17% being to high for racing on. I did plan on adding about 10-15% corn to the ration, I was just wondering why would anyone use a ration without corn. Right now they are loft flying fine and I plan on switching to a 14% once I start road training the first week of August and then I adjust the mix for race distance once they start.
> 
> Thanks for all the responses, keep'em coming.


Sounds like you know what you are doing. One big issue is that many feed stores do not have but one or two mixes of feed. One must add ingredients to get to where they need to be. My store has Excello Breeder and Excello premium. Neither is a good racing mix. I think the newbees just use what they find and do not have great results with racing or breeding. Corn, milo, wheat etc are all cheaper than feed per bag. Adding these not only lessens the protein content and pea ratio, but also saves money.


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

ERIC K said:


> I don't believe that for a second!


Ditto on that, I am wining races on green and gold


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

BetaPigeon said:


> Ditto on that, I am wining races on green and gold


Better read more carefully I said I don't believe pellets make a pigeon FAT.
I use the green and more so the gold with my own corn which is ,corn 25% of the mix. 25% Gold pellets, 20 % wheat, 20% blackoil sunflower seeds. and a small % green pellets. Oh yea I race too in a tough federation and we are at the end of the line only 2 guys in my club farther than me. Most of the competition is anywhere from 45 to 90+ miles short of our club.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I really don't care what you believe I just stated my opinion.


Any excess feed with out proper exercise will fatten up any animal including us humans. I will say this more clearly . Pigeon Pellet fed properly are good for pigeons .


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I can't imagine a grain diet without corn would be good, no matter the time of year.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

corn and wheat are the best 2 cereal grains. In corn the content of total digestible nutrients and net energy , being equaled only by wheat among the cereals. A quote from the book "The Pigeon" by Wendell Levi.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think I read someplace that the yellow field corn has more nutrient in it than popcorn. the mix I buy only has popcorn.

I fed the green and gold but they went through it too fast for the price of it.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> Any excess feed with out proper exercise will fatten up any animal including us humans. I will say this more clearly . Pigeon Pellet fed properly are good for pigeons .


You are absolutely correct! 

Most people who are starting out over feed their birds and over feeding with pellets versus grains is a lot worse.

I should have been more clear when i stated my opinion.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.beyersbelgium.be/producten.asp?lt=4

A place I go for feed information. These guys should know what they are talking about. they sell some mixes from the best.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

What info do you get from the site other then different mixes they have and sell?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Josepe said:


> What info do you get from the site other then different mixes they have and sell?


What I look at is the protein, carb and fat content. I also look at the grains in the mixes. Many of the pigeon feed we buy is not what we need to be feeding, but what the companies have available. Most feed has way too many peas in our racing mixes. Also too much protein. Many feed way too heavy to be successful. A guy can have the best birds in the world, but if he feeds wrong he has no chance to win. Studying these sites, I have changed my feed mix for the offseason and molt. My birds are much thinner and ready to breed come breeding season. I cut my protein from 14 to 16% to about 12% when not breeding. A guy is not going to give you his racing mix if he is beating you. This Belg company supplies feeds and uses mixes from the best fliers. Lets us look and see what they are using. I bet if a guy compares his mix to say the Vandenebeele race mix they don't look very much alike. Chances are you have 30% peas in your mix. His has no peas more corn, more dari/milo, more wheat, rice etc. Energy grains. After watching the Secrets of Champions section on feed, I started researching feed. Could not find much from US fliers. Found tons from Belg and NL.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

All I found from US feed companies was 16% race mixes with tons of Peas. Contradicts what I read and hear from overseas. This post was started with should I add corn to my 17% protein mix. What I have found is that every race mix from the best fliers in Belg and the NL have 25-30% corn. From there they are loaded with Wheat, Barly, Milo, Millet, dari, safflower, rice etc. High cargo and high fat grains. Some have peas and beans but in small amounts.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Jos Thone and Koopman simplify feeding. They have a base mix that they thin down for breeding and thicken up during breeding using different grains. Similar to what you see in Champions. You can find these mixes on Beyers feed page. Also on Thones page.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Jos Thone and Koopman simplify feeding. They have a base mix that they thin down for breeding and thicken up during breeding using different grains. Similar to what you see in Champions. You can find these mixes on Beyers feed page. Also on Thones page.


These two mixes have no more than 20% peas. When they race they add light grains to the mix, when they breed they add more protein. both have 25-30% corn. Gaby V's mix is a light racing mix that has 31% corn and no peas. Corn is important. and is the most abundant ingredient.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I think I read someplace that the yellow field corn has more nutrient in it than popcorn. the mix I buy only has popcorn.
> 
> I fed the green and gold but they went through it too fast for the price of it.


I think the book I'm reading says popcorn is just as good as regular corn but harder than flint corn and a little higher in fat and protein than corn, but like most corn it lacks vitamin A. popcorn would be in a breakdown.
water =9.4
protein=12.1
fat5.2
fiber=2.0
n-f=69.7
min. matter=1.6
digestibility=86.5

The biggest draw back is the price of popcorn compared to yellow corn. I don't know what n-f or min. matter is.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Looking at Thone's base mix it contains 33% Peas? Under Thone Special.
http://www.thone.be/


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Josepe said:


> Looking at Thone's base mix it contains 33% Peas? Under Thone Special.
> http://www.thone.be/


You can see the same thing on the Australian Pigeon Company wed site . The Articles to read are "The Dry Seed Diet " and then go read "The Use of Pelleted Rations in Pigeons"

http://wwwauspigeonco.com.au/

I still don't see how 30% legumes or peas equals 12 to 14% protein.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Josepe said:


> Looking at Thone's base mix it contains 33% Peas? Under Thone Special.
> http://www.thone.be/


this is his base mix, not racing mix. He dilutes it down with lighter grains which reduces the percentage of peas. He uses this mix for everything. It is basically his breeding, racing, molting mix etc. He adds other things to it so it is appropriate for what he needs. His web page explains it.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

I see now. In his race mix he has peeled groundnuts, is he talking about peanuts ? What could be substituted for sunflower seed? I'm feeding 14%How would I adjust it up or down for the different races with the right percentages? Say I'm starting out with 50lbs of base mix.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

This is what I'm feeding:


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Josepe said:


> I see now. In his race mix he has peeled groundnuts, is he talking about peanuts ? What could be substituted for sunflower seed? I'm feeding 14%How would I adjust it up or down for the different races with the right percentages? Say I'm starting out with 50lbs of base mix.


That's a very complicated question. You'll need to get your calculator out and do some math. Get the base nutritional % of grains such as corn, peas and peanuts or safflower and barley. Then get the % of your base mix and start cyphering.

For example, if your base mix is 14% protein and 2.5% fats and you mix in Safflower at 4:1 (four parts base mix and 1 part safflower) you'll raise the fat content a lot without raising the protein too much. I do this for my birds in training and while racing. I personally like to have 8-9% fats in the mix - maybe more for races over 300 miles.

If you add peas to your base mix at 4:1, you'll raise the protein levels quickly without raising the fat. (If you want more protein AND fat, then add both peas and safflower/peanuts). I do this for my breeders while they are raising babies and I continue to give it to the babies for a few months.

If you add corn to your base mix at 4:1, you'll raise the carbs quickly without raising fats or protein much. I do this in the winter so the birds get more "heat".

If you want to lighten it up even more, then use barley which is low in fats and proteins but still good in carbs.

I personally wanted to start with a base mix that was less than 13% protein and 4.5% fats (I get Lizzie Mae to mix it for me) and use about 13 different grains and 30% is corn (both pop and yellow). I add peas for breeders, I add fat for the racers, and otherwise use it straight in the off season.

Randy, I think you and I are on the same page. I'd love to know what percentages you like for the different functions in your loft (breeding, training, racing).


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

The math would be like this:

Your base mix is 2.5% fat. Safflower is 27.8% fat.

Mix base mix and safflower 4:1

2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 27.8 = 37.8. Divide that number by 5 (5 total parts) and you get 7.5%.

Do the same with the rest of the percentages for your base mix and safflower.

If your base mix is 14% protein, and safflower is 14.3% protein and you mix 4 cups base plus one cup safflower:

(14 + 14+ 14+ 14+ 14.3) / 5 = 14.06

So as you can see, adding safflower to a mix has a great effect on fats, but little on proteins. You can try the math using other ratios like 3:1 or 5:1 and see if you can get it where you want it.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Kastle Loft said:


> That's a very complicated question. You'll need to get your calculator out and do some math. Get the base nutritional % of grains such as corn, peas and peanuts or safflower and barley. Then get the % of your base mix and start cyphering.
> 
> For example, if your base mix is 14% protein and 2.5% fats and you mix in Safflower at 4:1 (four parts base mix and 1 part safflower) you'll raise the fat content a lot without raising the protein too much. I do this for my birds in training and while racing. I personally like to have 8-9% fats in the mix - maybe more for races over 300 miles.
> 
> ...


This sound real nice but you are not taking into count that pigeons will eat what tastes good to them first which is the high fat seeds like safflower and hemp and the fast eaters will get more of one type of seed and the rest will get the left overs. Look into your feeders after the birds eat and you will see barley or some other pea not favored by the bird. If you want them to eat barley for some reason then you would have to feed only barley or have extremely hungry pigeons for them to eat all the grains but you still have little control over which birds get which grains. For me that was always a concern and that's why I went to 25% Purina gold as part of my mix, so when my birds are not as hungry or I put a little too much what is left is some pellets and when the slow eaters get hungry or a bird coming off a nest they get a very balanced piece of food in the pellet.

I guess if you fly widowhood and fed in each nest box you would have less of a problem but you would have to ration your feed very careful to make them eat everything.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> This sound real nice but you are not taking into count that pigeons will eat what tastes good to them first which is the high fat seeds like safflower and hemp and the fast eaters will get more of one type of seed and the rest will get the left overs. Look into your feeders after the birds eat and you will see barley or some other pea not favored by the bird. If you want them to eat barley for some reason then you would have to feed only barley or have extremely hungry pigeons for them to eat all the grains but you still have little control over which birds get which grains. For me that was always a concern and that's why I went to 25% Purina gold as part of my mix, so when my birds are not as hungry or I put a little too much what is left is some pellets and when the slow eaters get hungry or a bird coming off a nest they get a very balanced piece of food in the pellet.
> 
> I guess if you fly widowhood and fed in each nest box you would have less of a problem but you would have to ration your feed very careful to make them eat everything.


My birds eat every last grain. If they do, then I've overfed and I cut it back a bit on the next feeding. It's an art, because their appetites change depending on the weather and their level of exercise. 

But you're right, I can't control which bird picks up which seed first, but I'm pretty confident they have the same tastes and will all pick through their favorites first and their least favorites last. I watch them eat every meal. They leave flax for last. I always assumed it was because it was smallest and they were prioritizing based on grain size ("I'm hungry, so I'm eating the big stuff first 'cause I can fill up faster"). Peas and corn are _always_ gone first (or peanuts if there are any in there which is rare).

My breeders are an exception. I feed them in their nest box and when they are feeding babies I give them extra so they can eat and feed during the day while I'm at work. There is only one grain they will leave behind and it is paddy rice. I'm not worried about that one being left behind. I am actually going to eliminate it from my mix in my next order and replace it with brown rice. Now that my breeders are off babies, they eat everything and I feed them twice a day.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks for the breakdown. One thing is my birds eat Everything.Though with the YB's I've lightened up a bit on their feed to get them trapping quicker.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I start with a bag of excello breeder and a bag of excello premium. Probably about 30% peas or 30lbs/100lbs. For my offseason mix I add a bag of corn and half a bag of milo and half a bag of wheat. So my peas become 30lbs/200lbs or 15%. Breading season I go 2 bags breeder to 1 bad premium. 
This would not be too bad of a base race mix at about 30% corn, 20% milo, 20% wheat, 15% peas, safflower, millet, hemp, rape seed, etc. Shorter races I would add lighter grains, longer races I would add more safflower, sunflower seeds etc. Add some fat. 
May also add some rice to the mixes.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I've been told before that if everything (feed wise) is gone then your under feeding but like you say its an art form and your both lucky to have the time to watch them eat. The first meal my birds get it at 5:15 am before I leave for work and the second meal is when I get home sometime around 7:15pm , at that time all the food is gone and I feed again at 7:30pm. Like you said you adjust by what they leave . 

David, You must have been buying grains that are tested because I see numbers that say safflower is 15.6 protein, 16 carbs, 5.8 water 31 fiber, and 31.6 %fat . I'm splitting hairs here but unless you buy tested grain and buy enough for the whole season your numbers will be different with each batch of feed you get. With that said your resulted don't lie and I know you race extremely well .I think you have a strong feed plan.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> David, You must have been buying grains that are tested because I see numbers that say safflower is 15.6 protein, 16 carbs, 5.8 water 31 fiber, and 31.6 %fat . I'm splitting hairs here but unless you buy tested grain and buy enough for the whole season your numbers will be different with each batch of feed you get. With that said your resulted don't lie and I know you race extremely well .I think you have a strong feed plan.


lol, no, it's just an average. Could be higher, could be lower. Notice that the Lizzie Mae bag's do not declare their numbers to be exact. They say "not more than", etc. The numbers I come up with are from a spreadsheet I got from a European feed specialist. I've had two feed stores compare my calculations with theirs after I give them a recipe and they are overall within a .5% point. Like you said, without having it tested, I won't know, but this is the best I can do. I figure everyone else is facing the same problem - at least I hope they are.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

So David, what is in your base mix exactly , and what are the different grains you use to up or down the base mix? I don't remember if you told me if you race just young birds or do you have an old bird team too? Is this mix you have ordered made for all distances?The problem for me is I have to order a TON to get Lizzie Mae's to bring it up here at $20 per 50lbs. That's 40 bags . I can get just about any grain from Dan's feed bin in Superior so if you'll share your mix I'd like to know what it is and then I could price the stuff just out of curiosity. 

I have heard that Heritage Acres from Canada sells their stuff as the same % if you buy enough at one time you'll get close to the same % but the only dealer around here only orders twice a year so you have to buy enough to last 6 months if I were to go through him.

We had a old bird race today and I didn't do real great but my Daughter first bird home flew for 10 hours + some minutes to get home. We're 373 miles so I think that bird was going 36 mph , does that sound right? I know not real impressive . A guy in our club clocked his first bird 1 hour and 20 minutes before us so I wonder if I would have fed it your mix for a while would it have flown home faster?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

In order to raise the performance and condition of the pigeons beyond, to give them their special buzz, Jos Thoné also utilises Cédé Omega Plus Form 3-6-9. This product is offered in form of pellets. Cédé Omega Plus Form 3-6-9 is a performance- and condition-enhancing grain, which is free of doping elements and consists of inartificial products meant for human application. 

The Cédé Omega Plus Form 3-6-9-pellets prove to be an outstanding addition to the "Premium Thoné Spezial" and have an unbelievable effect on the performance of the travelling pigeon, thanks to their well-balanced content of Omega 3-6-9 fatty acids and the natural vitamin E, which stimulates the sexual drive of the pigeons. 

Added to that, Cédé Omega Plus Form 3-6-9 also contains maize-gluten, flax-oil, different fish-oils and fructo- oligosaccharides, which guarantee an optimally functioning intestinal. The Omega 3-6-9 unsaturated fatty acid become to an unlimited source of energy for the travelling pigeon. For various reasons, a lot of pigeon fanciers do not support the daily offering of food mixtures which contain pressed grains. 

Thanks to the Cédé Omega Plus Form 3-6-9’s outstanding nutritional value and the positive effects on the body’s defences and the condition, now every fancier has the possibility to replenish the feed mixture for his pigeons to the time it is regarded as necessary by himself. 

The two great advantages of Omega 3-6-9 can be summarized as follows: 

1) Thanks to Omega 3-6-9 pigeons are able to fly longer without getting tired. 

2) Omega 3-6-9 empowers the pigeon to fly with a great speed as long as possible. 

The amount and the duration of administration of Cédé Omega Plus Form 3-6-9 depends on the distance (short, medium or long) of the flights and if you are dealing with juvenile pigeons. 

If one meshes one tea spoon Cédé Omega 3-6-9 per pigeon under the Premium Thoné Special, about two to four days before the "basketing", then the carbohydrate- and fat-content will be increased, so that one gets a perfect travelling-mixture.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I guess even the greats in Europe think that grain alone is not enough for our racing birds. I wonder how much to import these pellets from the above post ?


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

You can buy the 3-6-9 Omega OIL from Amazon.com. Different brands to choose from.Would just have to figure out the amount to add to feed or water? Possibly just coat the feed? Link:
http://www.amazon.com/Udos-Choice-3...d=1372008696&sr=1-19&keywords=3-6-9+omega+oil
Also Google has Many links to suppliers


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> So David, what is in your base mix exactly , and what are the different grains you use to up or down the base mix?


Base mix:
protein 12.3%
fat 4.5%
carbs 63.5%

10% popcorn
22.5% small yellow corn
5% pearled barley
15% red milo
10% white milo
10 % paddy rice
2.5% white rice
2.5% flax seed
5% millet
2.5% toasted soy beans
5% maple peas
5% green peas
5% yellow peas

I buy individual bags of peas, corn, barley and safflower and generally use ratios of 4:1 to up either the carbs, fats, or protein. I use the peas in the first part of the year and the corn in the winter and the safflower during training/racing. Barley is used when I need to cut the feed even lighter.



> I don't remember if you told me if you race just young birds or do you have an old bird team too? Is this mix you have ordered made for all distances?The problem for me is I have to order a TON to get Lizzie Mae's to bring it up here at $20 per 50lbs. That's 40 bags . I can get just about any grain from Dan's feed bin in Superior so if you'll share your mix I'd like to know what it is and then I could price the stuff just out of curiosity.


I race old and young birds. My base mix is used by all birds in my loft and I add grains depending on the time of year and what the birds are doing. As of this weekend, breeding is over and old birds is over and young birds are just about to begin training. I've just switched everyone back to the straight base mix which is (approximately) 12.3% protein, 4.5% fats and 63.5% carbs. But yes, the base mix can be used for anything or any race distance, IMO, by adding either corn, barley, safflower or peas. It is supposed to also have a good ratio of Omegas.

Lizzie Mae has for some reason agreed to custom mix 500lb at a time for me, but I also order and have it shipped with three other guys from our club so our totals are more than a ton.



> We had a old bird race today and I didn't do real great but my Daughter first bird home flew for 10 hours + some minutes to get home. We're 373 miles so I think that bird was going 36 mph , does that sound right? I know not real impressive . A guy in our club clocked his first bird 1 hour and 20 minutes before us so I wonder if I would have fed it your mix for a while would it have flown home faster?


That time sounds pretty good depending on the wind. At that speed, I would suspect there was a bit of a head wind unless your bird didn't come straight home. 

My mix is no magic bullet. Like I said, it's an art form and there are far more flyers out there better at it than me. But this is what I've settled on for now. The birds still have to do their jobs. It's up to us to give them the right fuel in the right amounts at the right time. I'm still trying to figure it out myself, but I think I'm better now than I have been in past years. Science has proven that fats give our bird energy over longer periods of time vs. carbs, so I'm putting more emphasis on that with the diets I give my birds. I just came off the best year I ever had with my club, but I can't definitively give credit to diet. Heck, we just had a 500 mile race and a club-mate who feeds his birds chicken scratch had the only two day birds. I finished 7th place with a bird coming in at 10 am on the second day. Did my birds not have the right fuel? Were they not in condition? Did they not get a chance to eat or drink during the two days on the truck? Are their blood lines not suitable for 500 miles?

Who knows. But I certainly won't be giving my birds chicken scratch and expect them to perform to their potential week in and week out.

I hope that helps. It is really difficult to find specific information on feed recipes.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks you for the information , I was being a little bit of an smart a_ _ ! but I do thank you for answering. I have read a bunch of stuff about feeding but so many different feeds and products to choose from. Our race was very slow even for the guy that won, and I'm sure my birds hooked in with the mob and either went over the Twin Cities or Eau Claire both places are way out of the line of flight but that's the way its gone for me this year. One year you can't hardly loose and the next your suck en dust with the same birds. I will look into finding out if I can put a mix together like yours for next year it looks different than most and I see you've got pearled barley in it which I know most birds will eat unlike the un hulled barley.

I have used cold pressed Flax oil and canola oil on my feed for the omega 3's but the 6 and 9's are harder to find. 

As for the longer races with hold overs our federation only feed corn when the birds are held over night so a person has to load them up the week before. It looks like you did all right on the 500 too. Most times a 500 for us is a 2 day race.

I'm going to copy and print your post with your permission so I don't loose that recipe.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kastle Loft said:


> Base mix:
> protein 12.3%
> fat 4.5%
> carbs 63.5%
> ...


This is very similar to what I mix up. Also very similar to what you see top racers around the world feeding. The guy who buys by the bag can get pretty close to this mixing a good breeding or premium mix with corn, milo, millet, barley, and wheat or similar light grains. Purina wild bird seed no corn is a good mix to add to heavy feed. I think when I calculated the protein of what I mix it was around 12 also.


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