# Skin Slow to Release New Feathers



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Walter is currently growing in feathers after the molt. One feather on each side by his ears seems to be having trouble breaking through the skin - looks like a tiny tent pole. In addition, several feathers near his tail have a cuff of skin riding up the lower 1/4" of the incoming sheath. Is this within the range of normal? The rest of his feathers seem to be coming in fine. He is REALLY grouchy, but most of his head is still quills so it's hard to tell if that's the cause.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I often wonder if it causes them great discomfort when they molt. I haven't heard any of mine complain, or maybe they complain when I'm not around. I hope the cool water in their tub is refreshing for them in this heat.

I have some that look like they are done, a few that still look like somebody picked their heads real bad, but on close observation, the quills are all in.

I'd like to see a picture of the Walters' tail feathers where the skin is riding up. Does the skin look unusually stretched or any discoloration? Is Walter on any medication at this time?

I'm still putting bath pans out everyday, in case some of them feel the need and still offering a mix of seeds, especially, a little more of the oily sunflower, flax, & safflower that help with the feathering and growth and other supportive care, to increase the nutrients to the blood that is around the feather follicles. Extra garlic is great also as it purifies the blood, therefore supplying healthy blood to the feathers.

A nice varied diet will help supply a the full spectrum of amino acids, and wheat germ oil will help with circulation, because of the vita E. The amino acids aid in production of protein and enable vitamins and minerals to do their job. If you get an avian multi-vitamin mineral, make sure it contains all the essential amino acids.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

As far as I know, this is not normal, I've never heard of read about this. Are you sure that the feather quills are causing a "tenting" effect in the skin on several feathers? The only thing I can think of is an ingrown feather follicle but this would make no sense here with numerous feathers affected 

Also, ingrown feather follicles wouldn't exibit this type of condition. Feather follicles are similar to hair follicles in that ingrown hairs are mostly caused by an obstruction on the dermous or something has caused the hair to grow in an un-natural direction back into the skin, very similar to feather growth or obstruction.

Can you take any pictures...this seems most unusual!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I have been adding extra safflower and hemp all during the molt and he is not currently on meds. Don't have access to a digital camera tonight; may be able to borrow one tomorrow.

The problem area is located several centimeters to the side of his vent, involving maybe six or seven follicles. It almost looks as if the follicle is swollen and restricting the emergence of the sheath. Either that or for some reason the sheath is dragging and can't slip smoothly through the follicle opening. Instead, it drags the inside walls of the follicle with it as it tries to emerge. It's DEFINITELY very painful for him. The only thing I can think of is to soak the area in a warm bath with Epsom salts. Is that likely to make it worse?


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Terri BI would think the warm soaks would help and would also feel good.
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi TerryB,


I see the occasional feather wishing to grow out but still trapped under their skin, like a little 'Tent Pole' indeed...

I just gently scratch the prominent end with my fingernail now and then till it breaks through then the Feather tends to be normal from then on. A tiny dab of some sopcal antiseptic could be used if one does this to aid them. 

It is just a closed over follicle...and can become quite an inclusion-spike if left un-aided in getting out.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Walter was remarkably calm while I submerged his tail area in warm salt water for 15 minutes. Halfway through he started fussing. When I lifted him out onto a towel, he immediately pooped, then I returned him to the water. Finished with a clear water rinse & used the blow dryer to remove most of the dampness.

Prepped two cotton swabs with antibiotic ointment then wrapped his front half in a towel and got to work. The largest inflammed follicle was maybe 1/4" wide with a 3/8" cuff of skin sticking up. Using the swab, I gently tried to work the skin toward his body and release the feather shaft. Little by little, it worked! There were TWO shafts in the one follicle, neither connected to anything. The other follicles were not that bad and seem like they were working through on their own. Walter had been very cooperative during the entire ordeal, but I was wiped out. I packed that follicle with ointment and returned him to the coop.

The tissue under the skin of that enlarged follicle had the dark yellow color of dead canker cells. Don't remember the name of it, but there's a gland near the vent that is a common area for canker. I think Walter had some canker growth there that was killed by the RonSec in mid-September. Maybe that irritated the area or injured the follicle. I'll bring him in for a soak and ointment for a few days to make sure that area heals and no other follicles need help.

I think the ones by his ears are just closed over follicles - they don't seem irritated so I'll just work on them like Phil suggested. After spending 15 minutes with my face just inches from a pigeon's butt helping him get a feather out, I'm glad he manages most of the 10,000 feathers by himself!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB,

I'm glad you did the treatment and sounds like everything with Walters' feather "issues" will be completely resolved. Sounds like you did a complete and thorough job and inspection of "the butt" area.

I don't like hanging around the dumping side too long, either, as usually they deposit a nice one on me! LOL Sometimes I will go to the store and notice I forgot to check and have some poo-doo from Skye on my shoulder, very little usually, but enough to embarrass me ..... especially when I'm in church.

After my "baby" days, and having burp ups on my shoulders, thought those days were over.... I never thought I'd be wearing pigeon doo-doo's!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

TerriB, this is great information to learn how you treated this problem. I'm adding this to my "notes". Almost every day my husband will tell me I have poop on the back of my shirt and I have to change clothes. Oh well, when they gotta go, they gotta go. maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> I don't like hanging around the dumping side too long, either, as usually they deposit a nice one on me! LOL Sometimes I will go to the store and notice I forgot to check and have some poo-doo from Skye on my shoulder, very little usually, but enough to embarrass me ..... especially when I'm in church.


ROFL, Treesa, went to work a couple of weeks back and kept smelling a rather 
strong smell....looked everywhere....you know the drill.....couldn't find anything.
Just hoped it wasn't me and no one else noticed  . When it warmed up and I took my jacket off, there was an egg sitting poop on the inside of jackey  ....just DD's way of getting me to share in the nest sitting duties!

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, this discussion started out as a light, feathery subject and has turned to pure crap!

Back to the original matter... TerriB, one of my vets told me that the orange-yellow cheesy stuff is the resulf of the inflammatory process in birds and is comprised of spent leukocytes and not trichomonads (canker) that we have always believed. So think of it as pus, only not as liquidy as the kind we make.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

OMG fp - the poop when they are nest sitting is unbelievable. I think they save it up for one big plop. What in the world did you do? maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, this discussion started out as a light, feathery subject and has turned to pure crap!
> Back to the original matter... TerriB, one of my vets told me that the orange-yellow cheesy stuff is the resulf of the inflammatory process in birds and is comprised of spent leukocytes and not trichomonads (canker) that we have always believed. So think of it as pus, only not as liquidy as the kind we make.
> Pidgey


Pidgey,

Thank you for clarifying that, very interesting, I'm working on getting some anti-inflammatory supportive care products together ( besides the garlic, which is a great anti-inflammatory), as well as detox products thru one of my distributors ( I'm finding out from the maker if these products are safe for birds, it is hard getting the owner involved as he is so busy) 

Well now we have gone from poop to pus.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Sorry*

that I have nothing constructive to add but just HAVE to make this comment:  

THIS THREAD IS GETTNG BETTER BY EACH POST! ROFL


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> ...the orange-yellow cheesy stuff is the resulf of the inflammatory process in birds and is comprised of spent leukocytes...Pidgey


Pidgey, good to know! Wonder if it is the same for reptiles?

Treesa, keep us informed regarding the supportive care products. Regarding garlic as an anti-inflammatory - I have some garlic...'buds'. When the plant went to seed, the flower matured into a cluster of tiny red bulbs, each the size of a small pea. What do you think about giving the birds vegetative material like that? Would it be a good thing or a waste of time?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Treesa said:


> TerriB,
> 
> I will keep you all informed about the supportive care products when I hear more.
> 
> ...


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> The only problem is some of the birds have the garlic aroma for a few hours...


Do other birds seem put off by the garlic aroma? So if I give to one bird, should I also give to the mate? How long do you treat a bird with garlic oil?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

I ditched my jacky in the car and hope that the smear on my shoulder passed for a blob of paint or caulking  .

TerriB, if they don't have the sense of smell, then it might not be the same as all human members of the household needing to eat the same meal w/garlic to keep the peace. I don't think any studies have been done on this, maybe Pidgey knows for sure, but they don't seem to refrain from billing after they've been pecking around in the poo for "good bacteria"  

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TerriB said:


> Do other birds seem put off by the garlic aroma? So if I give to one bird, should I also give to the mate? How long do you treat a bird with garlic oil?


Hi TerriB

The birds do get put off by the smell of it in their water, if it is too strong. They don't get put off by it from each other, though. I found that it permiates their plastic drinker so I have to find a metal drinker for them. I advise you to use a metal drinker or high quality plastic. I use empty plastic gallon water containers that I throw out constantly, and use new ones.

Use a clove or less to a a gallon of water and see how they like it. If they are not drinking fully of it then it is not doing them any good, nor it is not healthy for them not to drink their need of water.

The capsules seem to work better for the birds, and the smell does wear off. If I didn't have 48 pigeons I would give them all garlic caps every other day, but it is not economical and easier to put the clove in the water.

I would give it to all your birds, especially any birds that look a little off. 
I use it as part of my prevention measures, more so for its nutritional benefits. I use it as much as possible, several days a week, when I'm not adding ACV or something else to the water. They will not OD on it. LOL

If you have only a few birds, I would give them the caps every few days.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi TerriB
> 
> The birds do get put off by the smell of it in their water, if it is too strong.



Treesa, this brings up a good point about taste and smell. Months ago I posted about the possibility of deterring pigeons from a particular spot by using a strong scent such as eucalyptus and a couple of knowledgable members responded that they have no sense of smell.

It is also true or seems to be from observation that if their water mix is too strong w/vinegar or the like that they don't seem to drink normal quantity.
So for us, our sense of smell and taste is intricately linked, then how do they taste, or better, what is the difference from their perspective when there is a bitter or acidic additive in the water and they notice the difference??

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

From my understanding, pigeons and most birds do have a sense of smell but it's very weak. Humans have about 9000 taste buds and pigeons have about 37. So, if smell is linked to taste in pigeons as in humans, there ya go


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Treesa, this brings up a good point about taste and smell. Months ago I posted about the possibility of deterring pigeons from a particular spot by using a strong scent such as eucalyptus and a couple of knowledgable members responded that they have no sense of smell.
> It is also true or seems to be from observation that if their water mix is too strong w/vinegar or the like that they don't seem to drink normal quantity.
> So for us, our sense of smell and taste is intricately linked, then how do they taste, or better, what is the difference from their perspective when there is a bitter or acidic additive in the water and they notice the difference??
> fp


Hi fp,

I'm not sure, exactly, but I observe them going near the drinker when there is garlic in it, and stand there for a second and back away,( maybe they see it in the water)then come back and take a drink and hesitate and quit, not getting their full drink of it.

Maybe there is something that is in the air, also, that makes them hesitate, but I do know, once it hits their tongues, they back away, and are done. Sometimes I wonder if they see the clove in the water and that bothers them.

I have reduced the amount I put in the water, with the same results, and I can smell it in the plastic container even after thoroughly washing it, before adding another batch.

That is part of the reason that I would rather give it capsulated, but giving that to 48 birds every day is too much. It is easy to give to my pets, and when it is near sundown and everyone starts to roost, but economicallly it is expensive.

I won't give up, as garlic is an extremely necessary part of their diet, and I have seen such great results.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> I'm not sure, exactly, but I observe them going near the drinker when there is garlic in it, and stand there for a second and back away,( maybe they see it in the water)then come back and take a drink and hesitate and quit, not getting their full drink of it.
> 
> ...


LOL, Treesa, glad you're not giving up....so many birds one at a time would be a lot to treat individually. W/the water, maybe it has to do w/their environment and what they accept as "normal" protocol. Certainly in the urban "wild" they drink whatever seems to be fluid, w/tissue, paper or whatever mixed in. I've seen them gather around Radiator fluid that has pooled, although they must have been thirsty on that day to consider it.

But they do get used to a "norm" w/us, and notice that difference. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around exactly what is their taste/smell capabilities....it does seem as tho there is something there, but apparently from a scientific point of view, there is not. Something to scratch my head about.

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for all the good information! I'll try the garlic oil for a while and see how they do.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Powdered or finely granulated Garlic may also be added to their Seeds, and made to stick to the Seeds with a glistening of Olive Oil.

I have been doing this off and on now and everyone seems to like it.

When they land on my shoulder now I can tell that they DO in fact have Garlic breath...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Walter's "problem areas" seem less inflammed although they still aren't back to normal. He seems to be feeling better. I went in for my annual physical today and had to explain to my doctor that all the marks on my arm were pigeon bites. (Luckily, she's heard about the birds before.)

I have been reading the The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health & Management and he feels garlic is beneficial, especially during times of stress. Hiis preference is freshly squeezed garlic juice or good quality garlic oil. 

There is an entire chapter on probiotics (2-3 times a week, especially during times of stress). The two other natural supplements he recommends are Echinacea (as an immunostimulant and to speed recovery) and ACV (5-10 ml per liter).


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi TerryB,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I scratched my fantail's pipey feathers to release them and ended up with a very scary bleed from one of them !!  I tried a steptic pencil, to no effect and ended up having to apply pressure for nearly an hour. I have never pulled nor packed a feather so was unable to do either. I shall leave alone in future and let nature take it's course!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pigeonpoo, 


Only scratch a little at a time, over a few days...that way, no skin is sctually broken or abraded open, no bleeding...just weakened in stages at the tip of the 'tent pole' where it accomidates on it's own then, and lets the Feather out...

...should work better that way...

Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

pigeonpoo, are you talking about scratching off the sheath of a feather after it has broken through the skin? If so, I think you want to be sure all the blood has receded from the quill first.

I believe that Phil was referring to a feather that is having difficulty breaking through the skin...similar to an ingrown hair. That is the problem Walter is having with two feathers near his ears. He is willing to let me work on them for a bit, but so far I haven't been able to help them get released.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pigeonpoo - if you ever have another blood feather bleed just get plain old flour or cornstarch and apply liberally making sure you kinda pack it at the break in the shaft. Keep a close eye, about every 10 minutes or so and keep applying until the bleeding stops. I honestly have never known a bird to bleed to death but it is really scary and I don't like to see them lose blood like they do.

Another thing you can do if a blood feather breaks off and is bleeding. get pliers and put the pliers just as close to the body as you can and start pulling with some strength because they can be hard to pull out. Pull steadily and what looks like a string of mucous type material will come out at the end of the feather you have pulled out. I just call it the root but it will stop the bleeding also. This is the best method unless the break is close to the body. Sometimes I can't get hold of enough of the feather end to pull it out so then I go to the flour. Even if I pull the root out with the pliers I still put flour on the place. This never seems to cause the bird pain.

We also use a product called Stay which looks almost like plaster of paris and it will stop the bleeding but doesn't seem as effective as the flour.

Hope this helps. maggie


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Just an update - one of the feathers near Walter's ear FINALLY poked through a tiny bit and I was able to help it emerge most of the rest of the way. He was remarkably cooperative through it all. The "ingrown" feather by his other ear is going more along the direction of his skin, so will be a while longer.

The skin in the area of the problem feathers by his vent is starting to turn from yellow to pink. I hadn't thought to mention that the yellow skin seemed a bit sticky. Now it feels like normal, dry skin.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 


Thanks for the update on Walter's feather problem. It really is an odd thing that is happening to him Have you figured out what is causing this exactly? I can only really relate to the occasional ingrown feather but it's hard to understand why he's got numerous ones that are having a problem breaking through the skin. 

It's a good job Walter is in such good hands though and that he's got you there to help him with these problem feathers.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

He had two different problems that may or may not be related. The areas on each side of his vent I'm guessing were recovering from canker in that nearby gland - the tissue was yellow and the follicles were inflammed. Only one was so bad I needed to intervene.

By each ear there was only one ingrown feather and the tissue looked perfectly normal. He had that problem with what I think was ear or air sac mites, so perhaps that somehow was involved.

I know - it's really weird. I can tell if I'm helping, because he'll be really calm, even if I know it is uncomfortable. If I'm not helping, he's really clear that I should stop! I keep hoping it has something to do with him being a utility breed and that you'll know the solution!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

I really wish I could be of more help to you and Walter. I think you've been given excellent advice from the members and perhaps there was a form of canker involved in his cloacal area. As for the ear side problems, I have no idea where this fits into the scheme of things 

I've never heard of, or really read about such pronounced feather abnormalities in pigeons, such as you are experiencing with Walter

I think you and I are mostly alone in our forum with the "utility" pigeons and our problems are not very common as with the other pigeons. Seems as if they acquire a different set of problems unique unto themselves at times!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Follow-up To Inflammed Follicle Problem*

Things just weren't clearing up, so I took Walter to a different avian vet, who suggested a biopsy of the area, which would require anesthetizing him. I was very uncomfortable with that, since Walter is a senior citizen for his breed. Back to my regular vet, who suggested a more conservative round (15 days) of Clavamox to treat what he suspected was a Staph infection.

The day after Walter was finished with his meds, I took Grace (his mate) in for a crop wash (she'd thrown up several times). No canker, but he did a culture and sensitivity and found a fair amount of klebsiella and pasteurella. Since Walter and Grace were in courtship phase, both were treated with Amikacin for a week.

Don't know which med worked, but he seems fine so far. Grace is just glowing with good health!


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## mountainstorm (May 3, 2006)

What is a "utility pigeon"?


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

mountainstorm said:


> What is a "utility pigeon"?


These are breeds that were originally bred for food, and include Kings (what Walter is), Modenas, Runts (what Brad's birds are), Texas Pioneers, and Lahores, as well as several other breeds. Most are now primarily bred for showing. Walter is 800 grams, compared to his homer hen mate, Grace, who is 500 grams. Don't know if it's their larger size or that they weren't bred for longevity, but their average life span is around 10 years. The smaller breeds average 15 years.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terri B,


I am pressed for time at tha moment, so forgive me all, if my mention is redundant...but I do not have time just now to read this thread from the beginning...


The odd 'tent-skin-feather-quill' is something to also see now and then, and I just gently abrade the 'tent' end so the skin parts and the feather may then come out of it's own pace.

If one wished to be especially hygenic, one could disinfect one's finger nail, and also the immediate skin area, and or do the deed with a little dab o' 'Neosporin' applied to the tent-tip first, to accomplish both.

What I do is just abrade or scratch through the verymost 'tip' of the 'tent', so the quill is able to poke through, and leave it to it's own pace after that where it will resolve just fine over a couple days.

This assumes there is no infection in the follicle, and that it is only a matter of the quill being trapped under the skin.


As for the Tail skin feather busiess, sounds to me like somethig I'd just leave alone...


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> ...This assumes there is no infection in the follicle, and that it is only a matter of the quill being trapped under the skin...
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Thanks for the information, Phil. It's good to know that trapped quills can occur occasionally and what will normally fix things. I remember you mentioned some of this earlier and I spent a number of weeks trying to just help things resolve themselves.

Unfortunately, the area by Walter's tail was fairly large (a square inch patch behind each leg) and the skin at the base of the quills was inflammed and very sore. There were only a few trapped quills by his ears, but he was scratching so much that his eye lid was becoming irritated. Due to his size and conformation, he isn't very accurate and I was becoming concerned that he would injure his eye.


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