# Need help with two 6day old doves.



## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Please help!!!! I need help after rescuing two baby spotted turtle doves. The mum was a new mum and a regular in my yard. She has nested three times in a flimsy vine type tree outside my window and my family and I have looked on excitedly. However, the nests she builds are very flimsy and she has not had much luck. The first one with 1 egg (unfertilised) was knocked out in a cat attack, the second with 1 egg was knocked down by wind (however was unable to find egg), and recently she nested again with 2 eggs.
It appears as if the birds hatched on monday as a friend saw the eggs on sunday and then on monday the mum would not leave the nest. Unfortunately, on thursday the wind blew the nest down to a deeper part of the tree. At 4pm it was noticed that there was still one baby in the nest. The mum did not return over the next 4 hours and after observing no movement from the baby, we decided to remove what we believed was a body and assumed that the other must have fallen to grief as well.
At about 8pm when a friend grabbed the nest, he saw the baby move but it was very weak. We immediately started searching to see if there was another baby (we had not actually seen two in the nest) and several hours later we found it still alive buried in the base of some low bushy plants.
We have so far been able to keep the birds alive over the last three nights despite our lack of experience and equipment. We have had to rely on a water bottle for heat so have been unable to regulate it. For the first feed we tried the liquid from a sweet biscuit mixture but were unable to administer it without getting it into the airways (as I found out later from my sister who breeds parrot type birds). I then tried to feed a raw egg mixture - again it got into the airways. So I tried boiled and mashed egg (friday morning) but they wouldn't take it. I am now feeding them a mixture of sweet biscuit and boiled egg combined with water to a smooth consistancy and administered just with a plain (no tip) 5ml syringe.
Both birds have survived til today (sunday) but while the second one has progressed and is getting stronger, the first one (from nest) just lolls its head around and is not very active. Neither one seems to look for food, however the first one will move its beak to swallow a slow drizzle of food, while the second one (the healthier) puts up a fight and does not seem to want to eat at all. I have to force the beak open and place a small amount of food towards the back.

I don't know what else I can do and I am concerned about the condition of the first one.
My sister is driving down today to provide me with a heat pad which I can regulate, and something that she uses that contains nutrients and stuff. As doves are so different from her parrots, she is unable to help me with advice and is surprised that I even got them through the first night without proper equipment.

Please help by providing any information that will help keep these birds alive.

Thank you

Karen


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Karen
Thank you for taking in these two babies. There will be someone shortly to help you, as I'm not familiar with Turtle Doves.
I can tell you though, that heat is essential. That could be why the one baby isn't responding because it's not warm enough.
When you get the heat pad, place a towel or something between the baby and the heat pad so that it's doesn't get too hot.
I'm assuming that you are not in the US?
Let me go see who's on line right now and alert them to the thread........hang on.........


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Thank-you. You are right that I am not in the US, I am in Melbourne, Australia.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

We've got a couple of members in Australia. One of them is on line now. I just sent her a Private Message, as she appears to be on line right now.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I found this. I think a dove is a dove basically........maybe it will help some while we wait............. 

http://www.diamonddove.com/q&a/feedingbabydoves.html


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Thank you. I will go have a look. In the meantime, I have taken a photo but am not familiar with forums and have been unable to find a way to include it. Can it be done? or do you have to have the photo attached to a URL?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's another thread from our web site here. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9918

Here's instructions for loading pictures.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=17782


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thank you for taking care of these babies. If you can get a hold of some baby bird food, sold at many pet shops, that would be best. It is specially formulated to give them all the nutrition they need. If you can't get that, try some human baby cereal (with protein, the veggie kind or turkey with veggies is good I believe); the kind sold in little jars. Third choice would be if you can get some high-quality dog food or dog biscuits (I understand this can be quite expensive in Australia though), soak until soft, and feed that to them. Pigeons and doves feed their babies "milk", which both parents produce. The best bet is to try and reproduce something similar that is thin and easily drank by them. Cow milk or any other kind of milk is NOT recommended, as pigeon milk is very different. My favorite hand-feeding method is:

http://picasaweb.google.com/awrats3333/BabyFeeding

I have found this easiest for the babies as well as for the feeder! As mentioned, warmth is essential and a heating pad set on low with a towel over it is ideal. If not, you can microwave a sock full of uncooked rice and wrap that in a towel. A new member is using warm water bottles in a pinch at the moment. If you have a feather duster or soft stuffed animal, you can put that in with them as it is comforting. Provide them with a towel under them, so they can get a good grasp when they begin to stand or walk. If they are on a slippery surface, they can get "splay leg" (which results in the legs going off to each side). 

Raising baby birds is a tricky business, so please don't be too upset if one or both don't make it, but at the moment it sounds like you're doing a great job. Good luck and please feel free to ask any questions.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Renee...You've done such a good job with this. The article you posted the link
for is great. I posted it to favorites for future use.

Will you hold the babies individually to you ear, their back to your ear, and listen to the breathing. Do you hear any crackling sounds?


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Charis. Unfortunately they do both have a bit of clicking (my sister also asked me to checked this) and it clicks once approx every second (which my sister suggested could be the breathing rate). I am aware that this is a problem but despite this, they have still been feeding (sort of) and pooping (approx. every 1/2 to 1 hour), and the second one is scrambling all over the place. I am hoping that if I can keep them strong they may be able to clear their lungs. Any advice as to what might help??


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

*Baby Photo*

here are the babies. This photo was taken about an hour ago (had to work out how to load it). The one on the right (doing the poop) is the first one found and the one that I am worried about.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Karen and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. You've gotten some great advice already and have done a very good job of keeping these two tiny doves going. I think the heating pad and formula that your sister is bringing will be a huge help to you and the babies. I suspect the formula she has is Kaytee Exact or something similar for hookbills. Most likely, it will work just fine for the little doves, but please do let us know what the product is so we can be sure. Please do keep us posted and good luck with them!

Terry


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Karen
Charis had to leave and go somewhere, but mentioned in a PM that the babies might need some antibiotics. She was concerned about pneumonia. 
Again, I'm not sure what antibiotics that would be. I PM'd another of our members that appears to be on line, but sometimes his COMPUTER is on, but he's not actually there. Hopefully, he'll be along in a while and can give you advice if no one does before that.
Gosh, I feel so useless............


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, you sure have some teenies to deal with but I'm hoping that if they have survived until now they may make it. The clicking is a concern but hopefully they can overcome it if some food did go down the wrong way. That happens to the best of us and it is hard sometimes to raise the tiny newborns.

The site that Renee gave you about feeding doves is very good. They have some products I'm not familiar with but if you can get Exact hand feeding formula you'll be in good shape. Just a note though. They mention the macaw formula and I think (emphasize think) they no longer make this because when we order through our wildlife group it was not available the last time.

Until you can get this formula, you will probably be better off to soak dog/cat food pellets until they are soft and have cooled. Pinch off a small piece and put it to the back of their throats and let them swallow each piece you give them before giving another. We use Science Diet Adult Small Bites so even when they're soaked and swell some they're not very big so I would think about 5 pellets (broken into pieces of course) every couple of hours would do until you can get the Exact. Note that they need no water when you're feeding them pellets.

Do you have access to anything like Baytril (antibiotic)? Sometimes we can stave off an infection from getting food down the airways by giving them the Baytril.

Wishing you the very best of luck. Be sure to keep them warm. That is essential.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, looks like we kinda crossed messages about the antibiotics. I think that Baytril would be appropriate. I hate to give it to small ones but sometimes we have to.

That was a great link about the dove feeding. I want to go back later to read it in its entirety.


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

I really appreciate the kind reception I am getting in your forum. My only other experience was when I went on a dog site to talk about how wonderful a temperament my mixed-breed dog had and I was attacked viciously about "designer dog breeders" etc. despite repeatedly stating that I had adopted her from a family member after an accident between their two types of purebreeds.

I have looked at the links that you guys have posted and have gained some helpful ideas.

I have some specific questions that some of you may be able to help me with though.

1. How often should I be feeding these birds?

2. How much should I feed them at each feeding?

3. I have bathed them using a cotton tip and warm water - is this o.k.? (the food was hardening on their feathers and the weaker one was laying in poop)

4. Is there anything I can do to help the clicking?

5. should they have already opened their eyes?


I think thats it for a start, and I really do appreciate the help so far


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Thank you Renee and Maggie for the antibiotic advice (our messages crossed because I am a pretty slow typer  ). My sister should be able to help me with that when she gets her.

P.S. Renee, your response kept me online until others could help and I really appreciate this. Had I not got a fairly quick response I probably would have tried elsewhere. Thank-you so much for taking my hand in this forum.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

You are doing a good job so far. The good news is, doves grow faster than pigeons so by day 11 a ringneck dovelet can regulate their own temperature. Every day brings you closer to successfully raising doves.
I think at this point feeding 3 times per day is right for doves, that's what my doves do. They wait until the crop is empty, then give more food. Only a few ML at a time, a few sips, until the crop seems 3/4 full. Don't stuff the dove.  

My dove parents are really bad about sitting. They sit tight for 5 days keeping the doves warm, then they stay off the dovelets for hours at a time during the day or night. As parents, they are terrible. I have to put a heating pad in for 5 days every time they hatch squabs.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

3. I have bathed them using a cotton tip and warm water - is this o.k.? (the food was hardening on their feathers and the weaker one was laying in poop)

Bathing is fine, I give mine a bath on day 5.

4. Is there anything I can do to help the clicking?
Don't know...but somebody here will.

5. should they have already opened their eyes?

Eyes open slowly starting day 5 and take several days to finish opening. Day 9-12 sounds about right.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We always feed newborns about every 2 hours from sun up until around 10:00 pm. in small amounts. If you are feeding with a syringe, I would give them no more than 2-3 cc every two hours for a day or so. Pay special attention to their crop - you want it to be soft and plump but not too full.

At that age, I would definitely hold off on any bath until they get feathers. It is ok to use a warm washcloth to gently clean the excess formula from their face and around their beak. I try to always make sure their nostrils are clean of any food so they can breathe better. Don't give them full baths just now because they are way too young and warmth is crucial for their well being and digestive system.

I think we've already covered the clicking and hopefully your sister can help you there.

And, their eyes should begin opening in about 5 days from when they hatched.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Oh yeah, not a real bath of course. I wash the poop out of their little claws though.


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

heyhey!
sorry, it said i was online, but i was actually at easter breakfast!

I'm in Adelaide.
If i were you, i'd ring a rescue place in melb and take them there, as the clicking sound does not sound good...
I don't know what it would be called in melbourne, but in adel, it is called fauna rescue.

If you have no luck, get some granivore rearing mix (at any good petshop), and follow the instructions...

Ring around at vets and ask if they are willing to charge no consult fee, as you're looking after some babies that you are planning to release when they're ready (make sure you include that part, and they might say yes), and you just need some baytril for them.

Baytril is only about 10 bucks...then that is all you'll have to pay. but make sure you come back here and consult with the dosage, because vets are pretty stupid about birds sometimes.

Just make sure you keep the babies warm...that is the main thing. If you don't have any luck with any rescue places, i have a few phone numbers for people in adelaide who specialise in pigeons that could direct you over the phone if you need advice.


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

oh, and try the feeding method, where you use the syringe and balloon, or a human baby teat. That is far safer. Squirting things down babies throats when you're not experienced is a bad idea.

For warmth, if you can, buy one of those wheat bags and microwave it until it is warm...but not hot. alternatively, fill up some hot water bottles. Always wrap a towel around whatever you use.

Keep us updated!


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

These sites might help...

http://www.wildlifevictoria.org.au/wildline.html

http://www.animalrescue.com.au/services.php

The first one has a WILDLINE 24 hour telephone helpline.

If you take them anywhere, just make sure the people are not intending to put them down.

Goodluck!


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I have a major horror story about the so-called dreaded clicking noise.
First of all...

From MY experience, all young babies have the "dreaded" clicking noise.
Every single baby bird I've raised had it. All grew up healthy... Except one.

This baby also had it, but like you, I'd heard it was bad.
I took the baby to the vet right away to get checked.
The vet heard the clicking, so said, okay... Aspiration pneumonia, time to put the baby on baytril. And so we did. For at least 10 days. With no improvement.

With my care, the baby was flourishing, despite having the clicking sound upon breathing. He was happy, active, and eating very well. He loved to rest under my chin and nuzzle my fingers. However, the antibiotic had destroyed too much of his digestive flora.

It was sudden. One day he was good, the next he was lethargic and kept his beautiful eyes closed all the time. The vet was closed, as it was Sunday, and he was still eating well so I figured it would be okay. However, part of his crop was swollen and stuck (for lack of a better term) to his chest. It would not get full; just the other part would. 

The next day it was even more swollen; one side was flat and the other was normal, and all the food went to the normal side but not the flat side. He stopped eating so I rushed him to the vet. The stupid vet saw the full side of his crop and said he had a broken air sac or some gibberish like that (though it was just the food in his crop and she didn't even mention the swollen part of it!), but I'm glad to say she put him on Nystatin anyway; a fungal infection is most likely what it was, due to the antibiotic.

However, things weren't going well at all.
He was losing his balance and could not stand up straight; he was falling over onto his side all the time. The food in his crop was backing up into his mouth and he was breathing it in. We immediately rushed him home and tried to give him some Nystatin, and we managed one dose, but he had a lot of trouble trying to swallow it. We put him down and he laid on his side, sleeping. Aabout an hour later, he was open mouth breathing, the medicine coming up from his crop, and he was dead within minutes.
So 2 hours after he was back from the vet, he was dead. 1 day after he started showing lethargy, he was dead. All from a misdiagnosis.

Toad and Muffin had clicking noises when they breathed when they were babies; so did the 4 ringneck doves I have unfortunately had to hand feed for my friend. All 6 of them grew up fine.


What I'd do is put the babies on a short period of Baytril. If it doesn't work, they are either going to die of aspiration pneumonia (from what I've read it's nearly untreatable without some sort of device that causes the bird to inhale the antibiotic), or they don't have it at all.


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the information and experiences. 

My sister has been and gone and I now have the birds on a heat-pad however it does not have a temperature control. I have read that dove hatchlings need a minimum temperature of 85 degrees (which I worked out to just over 29 degrees celcius). I have not found any information on the top range temperature. Could someone please let me know as I am worried they are getting too hot.

I am now feeding the birds a product called 'First Aid for Birds' (don't know if you have it in the US). I will also be starting them on pigeon formula soon and then move on to a more substantial granivore mixture. I was not very successful with the rubber glove and syringe method of feeding but have managed to get them to eat small amounts from a small plastic spoon and they appear to be swallowing the food with no problems.

My weaker bird seems to have similar symptoms to Vasp's story except for the sticking to the chest and the lopsided crop. I suspect that he may have some brain damage as he does't use one side very much at all. After massaging it loosened up a bit and he was moving them but the shrunk straight back when I put him back down. He was extremely cold when we found him, and has been exhibiting the same behaviour all along and failing to make much progress. In contrast, the other which was initially in this state is up, running around, and wrestling with me.

My sister believes that because these are very common birds, all the vets in this area would just put them down.

I actually took them outside to listen to their parents today in the hope that may help. I was and am, unable to try to reintroduce them to the parents as I have many Indian Miners which are renowned here for murdering other birds and hatchlings.

Would love to get some more responses.

Thankyou all.

Karen.


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

hmmm..it could be a disease..i know some diseases like salmonella cause paralysis of the leg/wing/s. Someone with more experience would be able to tell you about that.

I thought the same thing when i found my feral (yes feral, like a city pigeon) , but when i range fauna rescue, they did have members who were happy to take her or give advice on how to care for her. I ended up keeping her and just getting some advice, but she was nowhere near as young as yours were, or with those kinds of problems.

You should still ring and find out the deal. I would think the spotted turtledove would be far more likely to be accepted by rehabiltators, than the city pigeon type. Even if those places won't take it, they should know some other organisation that might.

If no luck, again, still ring around at vets, or ask the rescue people what vets might be willing to give free treatment for wildlife. You'll still have to buy the baytril, but not have the $30 or more consult fee as well. My vets did it, and again, i had a feral pigeon. They're not going to put it down if you tell them that isn't what you want.

I don't know about the top range temp, sorry. Just keep it on low, if there is that setting. The babies should feel hotter than you in your hands..if not, they're far too cold. Just keep a close eye until the temp seems right.

I know that a mother dove has a temperature of about 39...or around that. Put towels over it so it doesn't get too hot. If you think it might be too hot, then put more towels, or put the pad under the box, rather than inside it (if that is what you're doing).

Have you looked deep inside their beaks yet? Make sure it is pink and healthy looking, with no yellow cheesy stuff in sight.

I hope the little sick one makes it.


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

oh, also, what is in the first aid for birds product? Is it for pigeons?

And what pigeon formula are you talking about?

http://www.wombaroo.com.au/hand_rearing_food.htm

this is a good one that can be used from tiny baby.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I'd just like to encourage you, you are still doing great!
I used a small reptile terrarium heating pad made specially for heating a very tiny terrarium to an acceptable temperature for lizards. (85f) It didn't have a temp control but the person who sold it to me at the shop says many of them don't. Heating pads for humans and reptiles are unsafe at higher temps and can cause burns, so that's why many of them are automatically set to run at the right heat.
He told me to put down a microwave safe plate, put the pad on top of it, place another plate on top of that (or bowl) that is smaller to allow air to escape between the plates, then a towel in the bowl and the babies on the towel, with a feather duster on top or one of those bird beanie babies. That worked out great.
I just thought that birds used to be dinosaurs, right? lol


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

You're doing a great job. I just read in another thread today, that about 30 celcius is a good temp to keep them at. A little up would be okay but no more than 35, as I understand it. Remember to let the crop empty out between feedings. I hope they continue to do well!


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## newdovemum (Mar 22, 2008)

Thank you all for your help. I regret to say that I lost both babies today but thought that I should write about what happened in the hopes that it may be informative for others.

I found that the heating pad was getting way too hot (38 to 40+ degrees celcius) regardless of how many towels I put over it so I decided to work with heating it to a certain point and then switching it off and monitoring the temperature with a human thermometer and switching it back on when it fell below the 29 degrees. As I couldn't monitor it overnight, I kept it turned off thinking that this was safer as they had been doing ok with a tap-hot water bottle at 11pm through to 5am at which point the temperature was usually at about 20 degrees. When I woke to feed them this morning they were still doing fine but both still had some food in the crop so I thought I would give them some more heat to improve their metabolism and wait for the crop to empty before trying to feed them again.

When I went back to them, the weaker one was still fine but the stronger one had buried himself under the teddy I had in there. I am unsure whether he was looking for food or heat as he had often tried to get under the waterbottle as well. When I got him out it was too late. I am unsure whether it was the heat or whether he suffocated. This all happened in less than an hour.

While I was breaking my heart over this little guy, the one that had been weaker also went, all within about 30 seconds of me finding his brother dead. I think that maybe he had only been holding on while his brother was there.


The two things that I changed yesterday were firstly the type of heat source - while neither the water bottle or the heat pad I had could be regulated, the water bottle only decreases in heat where the heat pad appears to be dangerous for a strong pushy hatchling as they can find themselves caught in higher temperatures.

Secondly, I started feeding them the "First-Aid for Birds" which is apparently just a mixture of nutrients and vitamins etc. that is supposed to give an unwell bird a bit of a 'pick me up' (sort of like multi-vitamins for humans). Apparently this stuff is used and recommended widely within the wildlife rescue network here.

I am extremely upset about the loss but despite my inexperience, I would prefer not to be in the position where I gain a lot of experience. 

I would like to ask whether anyone has ideas that may help prevent this emergency from happening again. As mentioned before, this was the third time that the mother had nested in the that tree, and the third time that the nest was inadequate and that it has fallen in the wind. I do not know whether she will try to nest again this season but I am desperate to try to help her anyway I can so that she does not loose her babies again.

Does anyone know of how I can create and/or intice her to a safe area for nesting and rearing?

Please help as she is terratorial to my yard and I would like her to have more success next time and allow any further hatchlings a better chance of being raised by mum and dad.


If she has luck again this season I will also try to post some photos so that you guy can see mum doing well.


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## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

i'm sorry the babies died.
Did you ring the places i suggested?
I'm sure someone would have taken them in melbourne..since in adelaide (which is much smaller), fauna rescue offered me numerous numbers of people who cared for pigeons.

I know you were trying to help and did the best you could in terms of care, but next time you find some, make sure you ring and take them to a rescuer asap.

Babies of that age are very fragile.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Don't feel bad, doves are tricky business. You did your best. Sounds like the heating pad wasn't specially designed for reptiles and birds.  
I'm sorry for your loss, but I suggest making a dove nest in the tree.
Follow the instructions on the site below to help that feather headed little nut next time.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/wadove.asp


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Doves are definitely tricky business.  I feel so blessed that I managed to raise a baby from day 1 with few problems (aside from her leg). They are so small and easily overheat and underheat, especially with heating pads.  

So sorry,
Vasp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm so sorry.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm very sorry you lost them. They are so fragile, even experienced hand-raisers have difficulties. At least they were in a safe place and being taken care of, rather than out in the cold in a bush. Thank you for taking them in and giving them your best try.  

As for mama dove....maybe next time you see her building her "nest", you can wait until she's off it and replace it with a store-bought or homemade nest or nesting bowl complete with materials. Switching out nests shouldn't keep her from returning to it. Thanks again for helping the babies.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am truly sorry to read this. I had so hoped these babies would survive.

Since the mother dove seems determined to build her nest in that tree, you may want to acquire a few essentials to have on hand just in case you have to foster any others. I can't tell you whether the heating pad increasing in heat may have caused them to get too hot although it is possible. You may want to order a new one that you can regulate yourself.

Thank you for caring for them.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry.

Reti


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