# breeds



## SYHANN (Jul 5, 2010)

i wonder what color my pigeons will produce if they are red check and a black,black is the hen....can anyone send me the color combination of pigeons....that would be great


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Interesting question, interesting to me because I have a red check cock. I am thinking of breeding him to a black hen, or to a hen that would least likely give me more reds, red is not my favorite color. Maybe MaryOfExeter , or someone else knowledgeable in genetics will see your question.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

If its black spread hen, then its primary color is actually blue. The red cock may be carrying both color genes as red or the red/blue or red/brown combination.

The color red is dominant to color blue. So if the cock bird is carrying both genes of color as red (homozygous for red) you will get red color birds some of them split for blue (visible color will be red)

Spread hides the pattern so we dont know what is the pattern of the hen - can be a T-check, checker, bar or barless. 

If the red check cock has both pattern genes as checker, then you will get checker babies, unless the hen is actually a T-Checker.

Depending on whether the hen is split for spread or not, you may get hatchlings spread for color or patterned.

It might sound confusing  Becky will be able to explain it in a less confusing manner.


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## SYHANN (Jul 5, 2010)

Sounds confusing,but thanks again for the info,it really helps,i wonder what should i give my red check a pair.


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## SYHANN (Jul 5, 2010)

hehe,we should try all so that we can see the results


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Does your red cockbird have any black or blue flecks in his tail or wings?

If he does, then he is carrying blue (which is very, very likely. You don't see many brown homers, and a lot of red cocks are split for blue).

In that case, you would get about half blues and half reds of either gender.

If he is pure red (no flecking), then all their babies will be red.

Now for the spread part. As Sreeshs said, the spread gene is what makes blue pigeons turn black, red pigeons turn lavender, and brown pigeons turn solid brown.

If your hen is pure spread, then all the babies will be spread as well. So depending on which case you have that I mentioned above, you could get some more blacks and some lavenders, OR you'll get all lavenders.

If she only has one gene for spread, then you'll get half and half. Some will be spread (black, lavender), and some will be regular colored.

As far as what pattern your normal colored birds will be, it depends on what pattern is hiding underneath the black, AND what both birds are carrying (each bird has two pattern genes, but only one -the most dominant- shows). 

You could get any pattern right now, until you've done some breeding to figure it out through the babies.


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## hartattack (May 11, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Does your red cockbird have any black or blue flecks in his tail or wings?
> 
> If he does, then he is carrying blue (which is very, very likely. You don't see many brown homers, and a lot of red cocks are split for blue).
> 
> ...


^^^ is basically correct.


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## SYHANN (Jul 5, 2010)

I will pair him a white hen?how about that?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Then you have a mystery pairing  Most whites are caused by the gene recessive white. These birds have bull (black) eyes, and the white acts like recessive red. It covers up all the other colors and genes the bird has. Unless your cockbird is carrying a gene for recessive white, you won't get any white birds right away. But mating those babies back to mom, to each other, or to other rec. whites will give you more white birds 

So basically, you can get anything at this point, cause we don't know what's hiding in her.

Now if your white hen has colored eyes, not black, then she's actually a pure red grizzle. Red birds who have two genes for grizzle often appear solid white, but can be told apart from recessive whites by their eyes.
In this case, all your babies will be grizzles, and all will be red (unless the cockbird is carrying blue or brown, in which some of the hens will not be red)


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SYHANN said:


> i wonder what color my pigeons will produce if they are red check and a black,black is the hen....can anyone send me the color combination of pigeons....that would be great


I already have the same pairing. These are the 3 young ones I've gotten out of them this year.










Here's the parents.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I think SHYANN was referring to a black (blue spread) hen

BTW beautiful birds, what is the first one from the left called ?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Pigeon0446, looks like your cockbird is split for brown.  Wasn't expecting that. In that case, the browns will be hens.

The first bird on the left is called lavender (spread ash-red).


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Pigeon0446, looks like your cockbird is split for brown.  Wasn't expecting that. In that case, the browns will be hens.
> 
> The first bird on the left is called lavender (spread ash-red).


I like keeping breeding a mystery in the ways that whatever happens happens lol


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Right Lokotaloft--In my 30 Plus years having pigeons--I have had colors A thru Z. I wish I had kept better records as some of them turned out Unique -Spelling?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well me personally I like to at least have an idea, that way if something happens that is impossible, I know there is another bird to blame for it, also helps in evaluating breeding pairs.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> Well me personally I like to at least have an idea, that way if something happens that is impossible, I know there is another bird to blame for it, also helps in evaluating breeding pairs.


why would you even have invaluable birds in your breeding loft to begin with ?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

LokotaLoft said:


> why would you even have invaluable birds in your breeding loft to begin with ?


Just because you have expensive birds in the breeding loft doesn't mean they are worth a darn, they still have to be tested. And by knowing what colors/patterns are possible and to expect it helps you know if something has gone amiss. Now, if you have a loft full of prepotent breeders proven over and over again, please do inform me how I can purchase them.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> Just because you have expensive birds in the breeding loft doesn't mean they are worth a darn, they still have to be tested. And by knowing what colors/patterns are possible and to expect it helps you know if something has gone amiss. Now, if you have a loft full of prepotent breeders proven over and over again, please do inform me how I can purchase them.


my point was by now you should know which birds you want to keep around your loft if you are racing your birds ,color or otherwise .. you wouldnt be purchasing birds for color but for their performace if you were in the race game right ?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

True, but if you race birds you should know these two things...#1 Great race birds don't always make great breeders and need to be tested. #2 Great breeders, the truly prepotent ones will not be sold unless the owner is completely getting out of pigeons, or you have many many thousands of dollars, so chances are you won't be buying them. This means the best you could do is buy birds with great performance and great backgrounds, and then TEST them to see if they will breed just as well as they flew. Also those whom are truly competitive in the race game are continuously looking for something that is better than they have in order to improve their own loft, this results in them bringing in birds to test.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I think what Matt is trying to say is that sometimes birds do "cheat" with other birds, and one way of identifying that is through color. Like if you hatch out a red bird in a nest owned by two blue bars, you obviously had another bird flirting with your hen, because red out of two blues is impossible.

Although you may have a breeding loft full of seemingly good birds, that doesn't mean each pairing will work well together. Even buying proven pairs may not work best for you, based on the distance, the course, your personal methods, etc. If you find something that works, keep it that way, but always look for improvements. The only way to evaluate whether or not each breeding pair should be kept, rehomed, or repaired with something else, is by flying their babies and see how they race. Evaluation. This is especially important for people new to the sport, who have yet to establish really good pairs. If you have birds cheating and mixing all over the place, that completely messes up your records (unless you know for a fact who the real daddy is  ).
So if you have several red cockbirds in your breeding loft, then the red baby from the blue pair...well, you don't really know which cockbird was responsible. If that red baby turns out to be an ace champ, then of course you'll want to keep the parents together. But who's the daddy? 


Now this isn't to say that you should pair up all your birds based on color and predictability of the colors in the offspring (like sex-links). It just means that IF you happen to have a sex-linked pairing, then that's one good tool to use when making sure your babies are from who you think. Knowing colors in general can really help with that, whether it's a case of sex-linking or simply a case of dominance.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

you still wouldnt be bringing in birds that dont have a racing backround into your loft , you want to improve what you got not hold it back with birds that havent been racing or raced


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I didn't see anything about bringing in non-worthy/non-racing birds. I thought we were just talking about color


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I didn't see anything about bringing in non-worthy/non-racing birds. I thought we were just talking about color


 the point was you wouldnt just bring in color without a bird having a racing backround or you are already going backwards..


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> Well me personally I like to at least have an idea, that way if something happens that is impossible, I know there is another bird to blame for it, also helps in evaluating breeding pairs.


it was this post that led me to the idea he would have birds in the loft he dint want breeding was all ??


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I can understand how you got that from his post. If you've got a loft full of good breeders, then it doesn't matter if they mix around behind your back or not, right?
Not necessarily, in my opinion anyways. But then again, I like knowing where my birds came from, so that when it comes time to get rid of the lesser quality birds for those who will (hopefully) improve the team, I can look at the babies my breeders produced to make the decision.

Also, I don't think he ever said anything about bringing in a bird just because of its color (unless I missed something somewhere). He was just talking about the birds he already had, I believe.
But either way, that is a good point. Racing ability should be your primary concern in breeding if you want to race, not the color.


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## SYHANN (Jul 5, 2010)

I want to have a gray like pigeon,grizzle one?how about that?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, to make grizzles, you need grizzles. Grizzle is dominant, so a bird can't carry it without it showing. Grizzle is very common in racers, so there's a lot of good racing quality grizzles out there. I myself have quite a few grizzle breeders, which wasn't intentional. I liked the birds and they just happened to be that color 

What kind of gray are you talking about though? Like the gray color on a blue pigeon?


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## SYHANN (Jul 5, 2010)

What if i pair a white and black pigeon,can they produce grizzle?
about the gray,you're right,or the lavender?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Nope, you'll need the grizzle gene. Can't 'make' a grizzle 

There are a lot of blue grizzles. There is a wide variation of white and color that grizzle can put on a bird. The pattern isn't important.

If you want the lavender type, then you'll need ash-red, spread, and grizzle.
The easiest way to do that is put an ash-red grizzle cockbird with a black hen or lavender hen.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Only wat to know that a pair of birds is breeding straight is to lock the breeding pairs down in seperate breeding compartments. THen if breeding compart ments are large enough and NO perches are offered in the breeding loft You may hold parentage true most the time. Color is a project at work. A person can work on any color as long as they do not become blind to the color in finding quality towards improvements. And without records A person does not know what a bird is masking in colors. Mostly a cock bird. So remember records. And with good records you would be surprised how some old color marking may crop back up. And be able to read it in your pedigree/records. A person doent need to work on many colors as effet to build 1 to 2 color lines requires enough work building quality. And ke3eping the common color lines keeps that strong base. While working the different colors. the colors spoke of in this thread are more common And plenty of these colors fly well in the races. So are easyer to work. As far as black in race birds most carry blue. Do not have the good beettle shine to them more a sooty black Just as ressesive reds most carry blue Not a deep chesnut red. Race birds most often are not color bred by as many people But has a certion following that likes to add color in the loft. Where bules in bar and check are more often seen in the different mixes. BUT enen those need worked blue bar over blue bar several times becomes dirty/sooty When blue bar over blue check helps keep the blue more bright. But the hobby is as the hobby is done. Breed to win breed to win and have colors Or just breed because you like pigeons. Then there is the show world and oller world out there


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Mary you are right, I wouldn't pay for a bird without a race record to try for breeding (in other words all those bred for stock birds that are out there). I also wouldn't bring in a pigeon based on color. But what I was trying to say was that even though a pigeon has a great race record DOES NOT mean he earns a spot in the breeding loft, his young must first be tested before I decide if the bird will stay or move along to someone else. Now, if I have no idea who is doing what, I may very well get rid of a cock bird in a situation that wasn't his fault, he may have been just raising kids that weren't his, and then he didn't get a fair shake. Luckily with hens we don't have this problem, if her babies don't fly then its always at least part her fault, if her babies don't fly with two separate mates, then she is gone. I just hate to get rid of a cock bird if I don't know for sure he had something to do with the failure. With all that said though, I do like reds.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

in my experience. i paired a red check c0ck RH and a black spread hen RH last june and they brood a a blue check and a pure black but not spread cause i see already a white in the edge of 1st tail feather. By the way i like black racing homer a.k.a racing pigeon.


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## Razor (Jul 25, 2010)

I mated a Black Cock and a Dark Check Hen, and the chick turned out all black.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I already have the same pairing. These are the 3 young ones I've gotten out of them this year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*The bird in the forground looks like a ASH RED SPREAD.The check in the middle blue ck ,could be carring the dirty modifier, and the bird in the backgound is a brown ck.,so your Red cock must be split for brown. *GEORGE


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