# T or Check??



## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi,
I want to understand how to tell the difference in the two? 
Other than shield color what to look for? 

Tail band? under body color? or ?? what else?

How do I know if a dun bird is a dark check or a T or ??

This image is an example:


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

A t pattern is either going to have little upside down T's in the wing or it will be solid (with a tail bar). The bird you posted looks like a silver t pattern. Its improper to call them duns as that would be the same as calling a blue t pattern just a black. Heres some sites if want that

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/patterns.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/pattern.html


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That is a t-pattern, not a heavy check. Dark check to most people is the same as a t-pattern.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Simply put, there are only 4 patterns:

Barless - No wing bar
Barred - 2 wing bars
Check - Checkerboard pattern (about the same amount of light and dark color)
T-pattern - Dark wing, with or without small T's of light color at the distal edge of each feather.

The dark and light color is pretty much self explanatory, but for clarity:
Blue based birds: Dark color black - Light color blue/grey
Brown based birds: Dark color brown - Light color light brown / dark beige
Ash-red based birds: Dark color brick red - Light color cream (may be tinged lightly with blue/grey/red)

The patterns are often complicated by the fact that people sometimes split the check pattern into sub-groupings like light check (very little checking on the shield), medium check and heavy [or dark] check (quite a lot of check in the shield, but not as heavy as T-pattern).

Similarly T-patterns are sometimes broken into Velvets (no light T at the edge of the feather) and dark check (light T visible at he edge of the feather).

The problem lies with fancier terminology, some people call certain light T-patterns 'dark check' while others use this name for check birds which are rather heavily checked. Since we do not know the genetics that cause some checks are darker than others, for normal genetics discussions we shouldn't use 'dark', 'light' or 'heavy' when discussing the pattern. It is either T-pattern or check or bar or barless, those are the only options.

The main thing for you to remember is that the only way to differentiate patterns in the birds is to look at the shield, since the tail band and under body color has nothing to do with the pattern itself. If there is a considerable amount of light color, then it is check, if the shield is completely made up of the dark color, or if there is only very little light color at the far edges (little upside down T's) of each shield feather, then it is a T-pattern.

There is also a more in-depth discussion on my website.


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Thank you all. This info has been very helpful. I understand now that there are many ways of describing these patterns. 

If a check or T bird has a tail band ? or if there is no tail band? what is the significance of this to me as a breeder and the future progeny of these birds?

Thank you,
JK


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Checks and t-patterns both have tail bars. Spread birds do not.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

As Becky stated, no matter which pattern you are dealing with there will always be a tail band. Or more correctly, none of the pattern genes do affect the tail bar.

Mutations that do affect the tail bar include, spread, indigo, dominant opal and recessive opal.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, I'm going to change my last statement a bit. Spread birds do have tail bars and sometimes you can see them showing through. Spread is a gene that takes the color of the tail bar and spreads it over the whole body. Thus turning blues to black, browns to solid brown, and ash-reds to an ashy color. We split spreads into two categories, "coarse spreads" and "smooth or fine spreads". Coarse spreads are the birds where you can make out the tail bar or wing pattern through the black. Smooth spreads are of course where you can't see the pattern. The color is more smoothly distributed across the bird and makes a real solid black, brown, or ash.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Jerryd, just want to clarify for you that spread blue (black), spread silver (dun), spread brown (chocolate), and spread khaki (drab), are not necessarily t-pattern. The spread factor prevents, in most cases, the pattern from being expressed by spreading the tail and wing bar color over the entire pigeon therefore the pattern is not readily visible. Spread with ash red and ash yellow is more variable, some of the time spreading the wing bar color over entire bird and other times spreading the base color throughout the bird.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Spread brown and spread khaki do not have any offical or standardized name. Chocolate is a widely used term in pigeons and shouldn't be used. The spread gene spreads the tail bar in all cases including ash red.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Spread brown is supposed to be chocolate although I don't know of any common name for spread khaki. I don't call spread brown chocolate because too many people incorrectly call indigo and sometimes even recessive red and bronze, "chocolate". Spread ash-red is commonly called lavender but I am going to start calling them ash or spread ash because lavender is also milky black, as seen in lahores. Lavender in that case is a much more appropriate term than calling spread ash-red "lavender". Lavender in chickens and ducks looks just like milky black - an actual lavender color, rather than the ashy silvery color of ash-red spreads.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Print Tippler; your correct, "chocolate" and "drab" are not standardized but they should be. What is spread blue? Black??? What is spread silver? Dun??? Why not Chocolate and Drab??? And yes, chocolate is far too widely used as a vague term for identified colors which are unknown to those who label them "chocolate". Your correct, spread does distribute the tail bar color of ash red but many fanciers would be in question because in most cases the tail bar isn't visible.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Doesn't mean it isn't there though  Ash-red tail bars are more easily seen from underneath the tail, especially in dirty birds.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Jerryd, have your questions been answered, and more? Your getting all the details.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

tmaas said:


> Print Tippler; your correct, "chocolate" and "drab" are not standardized but they should be. What is spread blue? Black??? What is spread silver? Dun??? Why not Chocolate and Drab??? And yes, chocolate is far too widely used as a vague term for identified colors which are unknown to those who label them "chocolate". Your correct, spread does distribute the tail bar color of ash red but many fanciers would be in question because in most cases the tail bar isn't visible.


If its not standardized then how can you say it should be used? Why would you use the term chocolate if it has been used for so many other things. I heard from someone that term chocolate has been used for opal, dominant opal, indigo, brown, the dark version of spread ash, bronzes, ash red T-pattern, and more. You should ask someone what they mean by the term chocolate everytime they use it, thus defeating the purpose of saying it. Im confused, if im correct about the tail bar being spread then why would you say sometimes its that bar. That would be false and even more confusing.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

If it was standardized then people would not attach the (chocolate) label incorrectly to other colors.
About the ash tail bar, I never disagreed with Becky, was only trying to reduce confusion for an ametuer.


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi, Thank you all for every word. I love learning details about color in pigeons. I am starting a project with my Portuguese Tumblers and I am finding the info I need so I can begin. Love this group! 

My goal is to produce pastel lacing as in Dominate Opal and I love the flight and tale patterns of Porcelain Ice birds. I love Toy Stencil too but I am told that Toy Stencil is complicated so thinking just to use Dominate Opal and Ice. Or Not?? 
Thanks.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

tmaas said:


> If it was standardized then people would not attach the (chocolate) label incorrectly to other colors.
> About the ash tail bar, I never disagreed with Becky, was only trying to reduce confusion for an ametuer.


I think we should just stay away from 'standardized' names, since the standards or each breed differs.

What is silver? Dilute blue or as-red bar? Many homer guys call their ash-red bars silver. So say dilute blue when you mean dilute blue, at least here on the genetics forum. I try to only use 'standard' colors names when they are part of the standard for the breed under discussion.

Since we aren't really talking about a single breed in this thread, there are many mutations and combinations that do not have standard definitions. Do not confuse people who are new to pigeon genetics with these wild names that have nothing to do with the actual color of the bird. Drab (what color is that) and chocolate (brown spread is not the color of any chocolate I have ever seen) and silver (seriously! - where is the silver on a dilute blue?) are not helpful terms. Lavender! I have never seen a purple pigeon and I doubt I ever will. Call it as it is, milky blue spread. 

If someone asks: "Is that a black homer?". The correct answer is: "Yes, that is a blue spread, which most people would call black". When someone asks: "Is that a brown homer?", the correct answer is "Yes, it is brown spread." No one will ever ask about chocolate homers, unless the mean indigo or recessive red.


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