# Pigeon with wobbly head



## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi everyone



Yesterday, I got a pigeon under the following circumstances.
1. wobbly head
2. only white urates for droppings, but today morning, then was a black sticky something in the poop as well. 
3. No bad smells. The bird is feisty and resists being touched but cannot move around because of the wobbly head.

Yesterday I kept him on a heat pad, and gave him some water using an eye dropper. I inserted the dropper way down to the back of his mouth to make sure the water goes down the food pipe.
Today I started him on liquid food (grains soaked and grinded). I also gave him metrogyl.

I would like to start him on Enrofloxacin just in case it is paratyphoid. But I'm wondering if I should wait a day or two and look for improvements instead of giving antibiotic.

I will be taking him to the vet tomorrow and probably they would do some tests. I just wanted to confirm that I am doing everything right, and probably if he is just emaciated, maybe a few days rest is all he needs. Also he hates having the dropper slid down his throat for the feedings, and he is losing a lot of energy just struggling to free himself from my grip. I cannot feed him peas because I have found some of my pigeons don't digest them well. I tried giving him whole seeds, but the seeds are just sticking around in his mouth, he makes no attempt to swallow them.

Update: Today morning there is more black/dark green in the droppings. The droppings are still very little, not the florescent green starvation poops but more dark and sticky. When I placed a seed dish in front of him, he is attempting to eat but has no control over his neck movements. 
Here's the link to a video of the wobbling head-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrzxHqnW4vA

Any advice would be most appreciated. Thanks!


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

Have the vet teach you how to tube feed. It’s works much better than syringe feeding. If he is just emaciated (which I doubt based on the head movement) it will take several weeks of refeeding for him to gain weight and strength enough to be released. 

Black droppings can mean slow GI transit, which can be caused by dehydration and starvation. 

I usually give antibiotics when I have a suspected PMV pigeon, but you might as well wait and see what the vet says.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks bootface! I will definitely ask about the tube feeding. He is drinking water if I hold his head to the water dish, but doesn't like to be fed.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Took him to the vet today. They took his fecal and blood sample and ruled out parasites. But they don't have the tests for paratyphoid. 

The doctor showed me how to tube feed. The pigeon is trying his best to steady his head and look around, even trying to take a few steps, but there is a clear lack of coordination in his movements.


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

Paramyxovirus can be diagnosed by isolating virus from swabs (oropharyngeal and/or cloacal).

There is no treatment for PMV infection, only supportive care.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks Lady.grey for replying. No we don't have those tests here, unfortunately.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Update on Maari, that's what I have named him. He continues to resist feeding. After I slide the dropper down his throat and empty the liquid food, I can still see liquid coming out through the sides of his beak. It is as if his crop has too less capacity, and is unable to keep the liquid food down. I am able to give only 2-3 mL maximum in one feeding, and maybe I am feeding like 5 or 6 times. I feel that is too less an amount, right?

His poops are still very few and little in quantity. He twists his head to his left whenever stressed, typical of pmv. He doesn't the typical bad smell of an infection going on however, he smells like a normal pigeon. 
Today I placed him by the window since it was a more sunny day today. He takes a lot of interest in looking outside, must be missing his friends surely.. poor thing!
Right now I am continuing with metronidazole & enrofloxacin which I started yesterday. I am baffled by what the return of liquid food to the beak could mean. Would there be some obstruction in the crop? I have still not started tube feeding btw, because I am sure that is going to be more stressful, and plus I don't have an extra helper with me.
He is undergoing a molt. He also that wing tapping and grunting when I catch him for feeding. He is attempting to scratch his head but loses balance.


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## birdtalk (Apr 29, 2019)

When you physically touch its crop from outside after feeding it, does it feel full ? empty? 
Is the fed food getting digested completely ?

Can you attempt feeding it green peas ?


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

After feeding the crop doesn't feel full at all, and all he can take is maximum 2 ml at a time. For the third mL, it starts to come out. When he drinks water, he is gulping it by making exaggerated motions with his throat.
The poops are bigger now, but it is the same dark green, not the ordinary pigeon poop. 
I haven't started on anything solid, because I'm afraid I will give some hard grains and peas and they will remain in the crop and ferment, and lead to sour crop.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Rather try force feeding him defrosted green peas as suggested, they are easy to digest and contain a lot of moisture. Much safer than tube feeding. Try to feed 30 peas 3 times daily, total of 90 per day. You can increase the amount in a day or 2. Add apple cider vinegar to his drinking water (5ml acv to 1 litre water), that will also help with digestion.


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

You are not feeding him enough. An adult pigeon takes 30ml 2-3 times a day. The eye dropper method is the worst way to feed him- it’s slow and you risk aspiration. Peas are safe but slow. While tube feeding might seem more stressful, you can give them a large volume of food very quickly. The less handling time the better with high stress animals.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

HI EVERYONE
Thanks for all replies. Today I started him on green peas. I have given him just one feeding, so I have to watch the poops and look for changes.
He has becomes considerably lighter than when I got him, and his eyes are also looking bit sunken (I can see his third eyelid at times). His poops have increased in volume somewhat, but nowhere near normal poop.
He gets more easily startled now, with accompanying head wobbling and twisting. He can stand by himself, but does that circling thing when he tries to walk.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Finally some close-to-normal looking poops! The peas are getting digested!!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Glad to hear that. You can put down a deep seed dish for him, sometimes they do figure out a way to eat by themselves. Although he will make quite a mess, but will be so much easier for both of you.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Will definitely try that. 
Also, we get black chickpeas here:
https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/kala-chana-18505150733.html

I saw videos where they are feeding pigeons these peas after soaking them overnight. I am wondering if I should try this to provide him more variety instead of just green peas everyday. That is until he builds some muscle and fat and starts feeding on his own.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can give a few of those peas and make sure it gets digested. I don't know if you can get a handrearing formula. Little roll up balls of formula will also give him more vitamins than peas.


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## birdtalk (Apr 29, 2019)

rudy said:


> Will definitely try that.
> Also, we get black chickpeas here:
> https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/kala-chana-18505150733.html
> 
> I saw videos where they are feeding pigeons these peas after soaking them overnight. I am wondering if I should try this to provide him more variety instead of just green peas everyday. That is until he builds some muscle and fat and starts feeding on his own.


Be very careful with those. They do not easily digest. I'd suggest dont mix green peaks with black chic-peas. I made that mistake once.

Despite soaking overnight those chic-peas were hard as rocks. So I semi-boiled them and fed maybe only 6-8 of those. The young pigeon definitely could not digest them.

What worked for me is 20-30 peas 3-4 times a day. In 4 days the baby gained weight and vigor, and an appetite to be fed asking for food. After that I experimented with those black chic-peas and stopped them after 3 servings of max 10 semi-boiled chic-peas

So I suggest be patient stick to green peas primarily.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks a lot for the replies. I haven't tried the black peas yet, so I guess I will stick with the green peas till he gains weight. 
His poops are the normal colour. The head wobbling is still there, but he manages to move around in a drunkard fashion. He is drinking water on his own.

I have been giving metronidazole and enrofloxacin for a week. Should I continue the enrofloxacin for another week?
I am apprehensive about the spread of PMV to my other pigeons. I am handfeeding another pigeon with broken legs, and sometimes I worry whether she will catch the disease. I switch to another set of clothers while handling the PMV pigeon, and wash my hands afterwards. Will the virus survive on surfaces like feeding bowl or the door handle which I have touched before washing my hand?


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

Defrosted corn with the peas, can be added, you can make human baby cereal, make it thick and let it dry in the bowl and take pieces and feed that as well. A few dry kitten food kibbles can be added for protein as well. I would go ahead and get a pigeon mix of seeds and keep them near him, so he gets used to them, he may even try to eat them on his own at some point , esp if he can drink.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions, Ladygrey. Will definitely try the corn.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I am apprehensive about the spread of PMV to my other pigeons. I am handfeeding another pigeon with broken legs, and sometimes I worry whether she will catch the disease. I switch to another set of clothers while handling the PMV pigeon, and wash my hands afterwards. Will the virus survive on surfaces like feeding bowl or the door handle which I have touched before washing my hand?[/QUOTE]

Hi, here you can find many information about PMV virus:

https://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/conditionsaffectinghead.htm

(...)
"The disease runs its course in about 6 weeks, by that time the pigeon has stopped shedding the virus and won't infect other pigeons but nervous* and gastro-intestinal symptoms may persist longer".
(...)
"Pigeon PMV is highly infectious to other pigeons , victims should be kept isolated from other birds for at least 6 weeks. Maintain scrupulous hygiene , regularly disinfecting food and water containers with bleach. Always see to a pigeon with Pigeon PMV after you have treated your other birds. That reduces the risk of carrying the infection to other birds in your care.

The virus is mainly shed in the droppings and spreads in fecal dust,so make sure you wash your hands after contact and take care not to track fecal waste or carry fecal dust to areas where other birds are. Dispose of droppings wisely, they can be a source of infection to feral pigeons".

In addition to change your clothes you could also wear a different pair of slipper. Always treat the broken legs pigeon before the PMV pigeon. 

In Italy we have a product called Amuchina which is good for disinfecting baby bottles, etc (other than for washing fruits and vegetables). Here is a link 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Amuchina-AMUCHINA-1000ML/dp/B007IFNYYE

If you can find something similar, you could use it for disinfecting food and water bowls, etc. BTW amuchina has a wide range of products (for cleaning floors, additive powder, gel, etc).

You could disinfect the handle door with a surface cleaner spray.

Edit: sorry, I didn't copy the original post in the right way...


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for the detailed reply! Yes I am feeding the pigeon with broken legs before I feed the PMV pigeon. If I cannot do that, I take a bath before feeding the pigeon with broken legs. 
I have chlorox with me, I guess that will work for disinfecting? 
I read the link you sent me. they talk about polyuria but I find the pigeon's poops are normal. Is it possible he is over the infection and is in the convalescence stage? 

Maari is doing much better now. He eagerly gulps down the peas I give him, and then starts struggling when he's done. He tries to walk but it goes in circles. Still he never gives up. He is by far the most mild case of PMV that I have come across. Hope he gets back on his feet soon.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry, I don't know what is chlorox... Anyway, it seems that you are maintaining a scrupulous hygiene! 

I'm glad to hear that he is doing much better now. 
You could give him a complete vitamin supplement (vitamins + trace elements + amino acids), you can put it in his drinking water. It will help him to stay as strong as possible. Probiotics would be helpful too. 

Try to avoid any situation of stress and to maintain a daily routine, PMV pigeons are really sensitive to stress and to any small change (like replacing their bowl with a different one or moving their box/nest). 

We have three PMV pigeons, 2 of them recovered well and have a happy normal "pigeon life" : they have a wife, eat on their own, fly, etc. One of them easily gets in panic (in these occasions he starts to fly in a "crazy way"), the other one sometimes moves his head in the classic PMV way, etc but they are really happy and serene pigeons. I hope that even Maari will feel better soon.

The virus runs its course in about 6/8 weeks (then starts the convalescence stage) but the symptoms could persist for longer period (the healing process could be really slow) or return in situations of stress. Some pigeons have residual symptoms for the whole life. One of our PMV pigeons unfortunately did not recover in a proper way : he can't eat on his own, can't fly, can't interact with the other pigeons in a normal way, etc. In any case, he is really sweet and friendly and can drink on his own.

Here is another link about PMV so you can read other information.

http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/paramyxovirus__pmv_.php

Please keep us updated.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks Columbina..I am giving him vitamin supplement by dropper everyday. His head wobbling has reduced considerably, and now that he is better he has started treating me as a stranger! 
He is still skinny, and he has a massive lice infestation - the moment I hold him, these lice are all over my hands. I am feeding him peas, and he is pooping well. He still cannot coordinate his neck movements enough to eat or drink. It is heartbreaking to see him try to eat - the bowl is quite wide, but he misses it completely.

For the lice, I have a permethrin-based spray I have bought for my dogs. But I'm dreading using it as I'm not sure Maari can handle all that toxicity. I don't use it on my dogs either as we haven't had a flea infestation for a long time now. Can some natural alternative like garlic work?


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Yesterday I felt I am not seeing poops in adequate number so I kept close watch and found that his crop is not emptying as it should. I have a doubt it is because I gave him defrosted corn instead of peas. New food - slow digestion.


Also after feeding, he did that open beak breathing with liquid coming out his beak. His crop can be barely felt, but I can feel a few corn pieces inside. 

I've decided to withhold food and see. He doesn't want to drink water, so I am forcing around 0.5 ml (ACV water) down his throat every other hour. Just to get things moving.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've seen that open beak breathing after feeding in a dove that had canker. He also made circular movements with his crop as if to adjust the food inside there. I treated for canker and yeast and he made a full recovery. Baytril can cause a yeast infection. Can you check deep down in the throat with a flashlight for any yellowish growths?


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry for the late update. I had read your reply when you sent it, and had checked down his throat in good light, but his mouth is clean. A little pale but no growths.

So Maari is now more active -although going in circles most of the time, definitely walking. His head wobbling is a lot better, but he still cannot peck at seeds. He seems to be trying with laser focus, but his beak misses the food bowl entirely...Lately the weather has been real bad with heavy rains, and I have been keeping him mostly confined to his basket next to his hot bag. The other pigeon with broken legs is also inside another basket, as I don't want to expose him to the cold outside.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Maybe if you put down a bigger food bowl, one that is quite deep?


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

The bowl is wide enough, it is made of clay and has a rim too so he can perch on it. But his beak goes all the way down between his feet when he tries to peck and he loses balance at times and falls into the bowl. We tried a few times in the beginning, but now I don't give him the bowl anymore. He eagerly takes the peas I handfeed him. I tried whole wheat, since it is bigger than the seeds, but it is much more difficult and time-consuming than peas. 
Sometimes as I enter his room, he comes circling to me. I never thought a feral would bond like this. He is such a cutie!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

rudy said:


> Thanks Columbina..I am giving him vitamin supplement by dropper everyday. His head wobbling has reduced considerably, and now that he is better he has started treating me as a stranger!
> He is still skinny, and he has a massive lice infestation - the moment I hold him, these lice are all over my hands. I am feeding him peas, and he is pooping well. He still cannot coordinate his neck movements enough to eat or drink. It is heartbreaking to see him try to eat - the bowl is quite wide, but he misses it completely.
> 
> For the lice, I have a permethrin-based spray I have bought for my dogs. But I'm dreading using it as I'm not sure Maari can handle all that toxicity. I don't use it on my dogs either as we haven't had a flea infestation for a long time now. Can some natural alternative like garlic work?





rudy said:


> Sorry for the late update. I had read your reply when you sent it, and had checked down his throat in good light, but his mouth is clean. A little pale but no growths.
> 
> So Maari is now more active -although going in circles most of the time, definitely walking. His head wobbling is a lot better, but he still cannot peck at seeds. He seems to be trying with laser focus, but his beak misses the food bowl entirely...Lately the weather has been real bad with heavy rains, and I have been keeping him mostly confined to his basket next to his hot bag. The other pigeon with broken legs is also inside another basket, as I don't want to expose him to the cold outside.


A little pale mouth could suggest anemia. There are many causes of anemia, one of them could be blood sucking parasites. 

To answer your question, I don't know if a natural remedy could really work against parasites but, yes, I read that garlic smell helps to keep lice away. You could give it a try. 
I was told that lavender is good to fight parasites: you could put some sprig of lavender in his box or put 10 drops of essential oil of lavender in the bath water.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions. I am also thinking of spraying him with ACV water on the wings. Will try them all and update.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes, I read too about ACV in bath water.

Anyway, keep us updated, I hope that one of these remedies could work.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

First day I tried garlic and ACV together. I gave him one garlic capsule, and sprayed his wings and underside with ACV water (2 parts ACV in one part water). The lice reduced noticeably the next day, and I assumed the ACV must have done the trick. I continued with the ACV spraying, but the lice came back as quickly as it had gone. So next I tried the garlic capsule again and success!! I am giving him the capsule everyday now, and the lice is not completely gone, but has reduced its numbers considerably.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi everyone

So its been a month since I've had Maari. On the whole, the head wobbling has reduced. But the nervous symptoms like head falling backwards, circling when anxious, inability to jump up or fly or peck at seeds - they continue. From the beginning, there has been no smelly poops or diarrhea. 
Can extreme starvation lead to such nervous symptoms?? Unlike the other PMV/salmonella cases that I've seen in the past, Maari has had normal poops from the start. Which makes me wonder if it is just starvation that led to these nervous symptoms. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please share.

Also I am thinking of slowly introducing Maari to my other pigeons after 2 weeks. Is 6 weeks of quarantine sufficient? I read that PMV is contagious for only 6 weeks.
Btw, the garlic effect is slowly reducing, or rather the lice is getting better at tolerating the garlic smell


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I don't think starvation can cause these symptoms. I've only cared for 1 PMV pigeon so far, her symptoms were at its worst by week 6. So I confined her for another 2 weeks (total 8 weeks) to be on the safe side.


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

I would stick with one thing for now as his main diet, the only other thing that can keep a good flora in his crop and digest things well is a small amount of unsweetened baby apple sauce with a little apple cider vinegar in it and crop feed that. Esp if he gets slow in digesting.. nystatin usually may be needed if he does get a slow crop or sour crop.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Marina B said:


> I don't think starvation can cause these symptoms. I've only cared for 1 PMV pigeon so far, her symptoms were at its worst by week 6. So I confined her for another 2 weeks (total 8 weeks) to be on the safe side.


Okay. I guess Maari was already at his worst when I got him then, because he has slowly gotten better over the past weeks. My first PMV pigeon also did have normal droppings, but her neck torsion and circling was really extreme. She continued the neck twisting for the 2 years she was with us. 

I wish the lice problem also gets sorted out meanwhile, because otherwise I can't introduce her to the other pigeons. And the introducing part is another hard task, because my other pigeons do not let in a new pigeon into their space so easily.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Do you get karbadust for lice treatment over there? They use this product on chickens as well, so if there's a shop that sells agricultural goods maybe they will stock it.


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## birdtalk (Apr 29, 2019)

Try one of these, I suppose

Bird spray


Dog Dust

I bought Colombine spray for a Pigeon. Did the trick. Was effective for upto 10 days at a stretch.

Hope this helps.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks Marina B and birdtalk. And thanks a lot for the links!! I have known notix for a long time, but did not know it has carbaryl in it. Will try it and update here.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

The notix works! All lice gone in a matter of minutes! I kept a close watch on him the entire day to look for toxic side effects, but there were none thankfully. I did not even apply it liberally, I just dusted him lightly and worked my fingers through his feathers hoping it would reach everywhere. Still it worked.
Btw there are those very tiny lice as well as the ones that look like small pins. The tiny ones that are normally seen swarming through the body are now gone. The pin- like lice were invisible from the beginning, never saw them except once in a while when they managed to hop on to my hand. I don't know about them though, because Maari still preens himself as if he is trying to get something out.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

rudy said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if this is Ataxia related. Look up online and see. See symptoms and determine. I had 1 w this. It was taken to WBF and healed in a months time.


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## rudy (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi, this is an old thread of mine, and I'm happy to inform that Maari is doing well now. He is the boss of all pigeons here. He still has a wobbly head so he spends quite a while at pecking and eating. He cannot fly without crashing back down, but he practices everyday.


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

rudy said:


> Hi, this is an old thread of mine, and I'm happy to inform that Maari is doing well now. He is the boss of all pigeons here. He still has a wobbly head so he spends quite a while at pecking and eating. He cannot fly without crashing back down, but he practices everyday.


Fantastic. Give that boo a kiss


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks so much for the update 😊!

I'm very happy to hear that Maari, the boss, is doing well! That's great 😊!


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