# Canker



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Folks,
I don't have a couple of happy stories to relate to you but it has to be shared.
About a month ago, I picked up an obviously weak adult male that was standing on the grass when the rest of the flock was already up for the evening. While walking home with him, I felt him all over at least to rule out anything on the outside that was out of the ordinary. I found a batch of feathers pushing out on the right side of the upper crop area so when home, I took a good look and what was under those feathers was a hole covered by a dried out exudate. In removing that accumulation, it turned out to be dried canker sticking out of the crop through an opening that blew out and was about the size of a dime.
All that could be seen through that opening was yellow canker tissue. The only thing I felt I could do was to gently manipulate the crop to get as much out as possible. The canker had completely bypassed the mouth and grew in the crop. There was a huge amount. I couldn't and wouldn't touch the canker lining the inside of the crop but pushed out whatever was loose in there and it probably equaled the volume of the entire upper 50% of the crop. How any food got past that area is anyone's guess and I think that any droppings that the bird was having may have actually been the undigested canker.
After getting as much out as possible, I stitched the opening closed and put down two Spartrix and then one pill for the next three days. He was also put on an antibiotic.
I didn't think taking the bird to a vet would have accomplished anything. This was on a Sunday and nobody was open. The bird was far too weak for any kind of surgery to be done and what kind of surgery could have been done? This infection was probably filling up the entire crop even though I couldn't see it.
He was given soaked Purina Puppy Chow. Seed would only have been caught in the remaining blockage and probably fester. At least with the Chow turning into a semi liquid inside, there would be some hope of digestion. I didn't feed formula because of the probability that some of it would seep through the crop opening.
About 4 days later and that's about the time that canker begins to die, some of the sutures partially blew because of the pressure more canker was putting on the opening. The dead tissue was looking for the weakest part to find a way out. I cleaned out whatever I could and re-sutured the area. 
The bird died about a week later. The damage was so extensive and it probably hit the liver too, that there was no way this bird could have survived. In thinking about this situation, one can easily envision this to be possible but I never saw anything like that before.
A couple of years ago, I did have a young bird that had a very large canker infection right behind the cloaca. After about ten days, the infection could be safely cleaned out without causing a bleed and the droppings started to come out of the opening created by the canker so actually, the canker originated in the cloaca and spread to an area behind it. The opening was sutured closed and everything healed beautifully. As far as I know the bird could still be out there and living its life.
The point I want to make is that canker can bypass the mouth completely and you could have birds walking around with this disease and not even know it until it is too late.
Please periodically give your birds a prophylactic medication for canker.
I'm going to post another similar story immediately after this one.




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"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."

Albert Schweitzer


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I am so sorry about your bird









I never thought canker was such a serious thing..How often should one medicate for canker?

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

This last Saturday night, I was walking along the street and saw a youngster standing on the ground so something was wrong. After a short chase, I got him and again, there was a batch of feathers pushed away from about the middle of the right side of the crop. There was seed clinging to the matted feathers.
At home, I removed the feathers and again, there was a wide open hole in the crop. I didn't see canker so I looked for an entry wound on the other side of the crop in case this this was a hole blown out by a bullet. There wasn't any so something inside the crop burst out on the right side. Looking in with a bright light, there was a fair amount of black muddy looking accumulation. It had the consistency of clumped blood so that was the assumption made. I got some out to see what it was but there was not enough there to completely block the crop so I left most of it alone.
This was an exit wound from the way the tissue looked so what could have done this and not be there anymore? There were two possibilities; Either the bird swallowed a dry roasted peanut that festered and broke through and fell off or he swallowed an acorn and the same thing happened but if that were the case, the infection and opening would have been at the base of the crop.
I closed everything up and put the bird on an antibiotic. Of course, he also got a Spartrix.
A crop heals very quickly. It takes about 5 days so I removed the sutures today. I found that about 40% of the crop had closed but the remainder was still open and there was a yellow tissue clinging to the opening.
Now, this is canker tissue but I have no idea if it was secondary to what originally happened to the bird of if the entire black, muddy material was a mix of canker and blood. I cleaned out the opening and reclosed it. This time, I won't go near the sutures for another week. Needless to say, he got another Spartrix.
Here, the bird was very weak when I first picked him up and now, he is as feisty a youngster anyone would come across. He's eating seed on his own so I'm leaving him alone in that respect. His droppings are slowly improving and are beginning to look a little on the normal side but I have no idea how this is going to turn out. It all depends on whether the crop heals or not.
There is no point in relating this other than to reflect on what goes on out there. If you ever hear a person say they have seen everything, don't believe it.



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"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."

Albert Schweitzer


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Your Tooty lives in a home so he doesn't drink from contaminated water. The best thing you could do is to thoroughly wash out the water cup twice a day.
On the highly unlikely chance that Tooty might pick up the organism, I would put a Spartrix down twice a year but the possibility of Tooty picking up anything is pretty remote.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thank you Fred









I gave Tooty one Canker pill as you said and I do change his water twice a day..Vitamin water in the morning and clear water for the rest of the day..You said to make sure the vitamin water doesn't sit all day becasue of the bacteria build up from the the vitamin D3

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Mary,
It's not Vitamin D3 but all water soluble vitamins create bacterial buildup.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh yes Fred, I forgot..









Mary


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Fred, this discussion has come up before in other forums I frequent.

There is something in squabs (babies still in the nest) that others refer to as "butt canker". It is essentially what you described in the one bird. Some years we see it in a couple or more babies, other years we don't see it at all. We've been fortunate the last couple of years, and haven't had a single case of it.

After reading your posts here in the past, we picked up Pegosan tablets -- it treats both canker and cocci. As I've posted before, any time we have a bird out for a couple of days, we immediately give it one of these tablets when it returns home. Heaven knows what it might have been drinking/eating from while out. I'm positive the tablets have been responsible for saving at least one, if not more, of our birds.

We use electrolytes, honey, apple cider vinegar, and occasionally vitamins in the birds' water. (not all at the same time! LOL). 

ANYTIME we've put an additive in the water, hubby cleans the water buckets with bleach, then rinses them, before giving fresh water. It only takes a few minutes extra at feeding time, but can avoid so many other problems.... In retrospect, this change in our feeding/watering habits is probably largely responsible to having no "butt" canker these past couple years....


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

WhiteWingsCa,
You are certainly taking very good care of your birds. There isn't much I can say to you other than you are definitely playing it very safe when your birds are out playing in the dirt and drinking contaminated water.
I'd like to make one suggestion. Lately, I've run across some reading that pet pigeons are becoming immune to the standard medications for canker, cocci and worms. It's being recommended that people do not use the same meds on a continual basis but alternate the drugs. Perhaps you might want to consider getting Spartrix for canker if the formula is different and alternate between the two? Do you treat for coccidiosis and worms periodically because I think the same holds true for those medications.


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Hi Fred,
I commend you for the work you have done with pigeons, animals have not been shown as much respect as they should be shown. I came across pigeons with severe infections as you entailed and i have a few suggestions that might aid you and others if such a situation arises again. If you use pills to treat diseases such as trich. try to mash it first and dissolve what you can in a small amount of water then adminster it to the birds, the drug will work quicker, which is especially needed in severe cases. About sutures, I and alot of people i know use super glue to hold wounds together, you can use it directly or apply it to some tape and place over wound, just make sure wound is closed, it is less painful and stressfull for a bird that is already at a low point than sutures. And using bleach in water is very helpful in containing and preventing further transmission. About that butt canker, its more likely umbilical canker, which they get after hatching when the umblical is vunerable to infection, and Canker not only gets into the mouth, crop or umbilical, it can infect the liver , kidney and even brain. Cleaning the drinkers and feeders are good, but if they are getting dirty easily it might be good to change the type used.
Hope some bit of what i said may be helpful in saving a bird, 
Jim


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Iffan,
You posted a lot of good stuff. I just want to mention that there is a difference between the super glue we can all purchase in a store and the veterinarian type that can be purchased at Jeffers. It's called "Vetbond" and I think the difference is that the fumes from regular super glue are toxic to the respiratory system. It can create a chemical pneumonia. 
As long as we can get vet level skin adhesive, we might as well go to the Jeffers site and order that product.


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

I have used both types with no ill effect, the store bought brand i usually get in cases of emergency where time is of an essense and dries quite quickly. The fumes arent sustained for too long so there shouldnt be much to worry about, to even lessen the worry of fumes , cover the glued wound with some tape or coat it with a layer of antibiotic cream. If the loft is well ventilated fumes of any kind should not be present. Both of these glues i see as good methods of sealing wounds, sutures are good but they hurt unless you put the animal under anesthesia. Glues will just minimize the added stress of an already dire situation.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

found this very imformative link tonight

very graphic (and icky) pictures...not for the weak stomached.
http://www.albertaclassic.com/trichomonas/trichomonas.shtml


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Fred, WhiteWings or anyone,
How do you clean canker out of the pigeon's mouth? Cindy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Cindy,

You don't...I had a pigeon named Oreo from my balcony, she had canker all in her throat and up to the top of her bottom beak..Even the bottom part of the beak was stretched up and swollen looking from the outside..
You Should NOT pick/pull anyting out or else she could bleed and that would be dangerous so I just give the pill and it all cracks and disolves down the throat.. and in afew weeks I caught Oreo again and her beak went back to normal size and all clear inside!









Mary



> Originally posted by Whitefeather:
> *Fred, WhiteWings or anyone,
> How do you clean canker out of the pigeon's mouth? Cindy
> 
> *


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Oh my goodness... The reason I asked that question was 1) I didn't know and 2) is as follows.
The regular lady I take the sick pigeons to was out of town & she gave me the number of another person to take any sick birds to while she was gone.
I caught a little guy on Friday. Took him over to this lady who told me he had canker. She took a Q-tip and began trying to get it out of his mouth. Popped a piece of a pill in his mouth then tube fed him. As I was standing there she took another larger pigeon who also had canker and began to tube feed him. She said he had canker so bad that while she was trying to get it out he did bleed some. She really couldn't tube feed him because she said the canker keeps moving. 
I am feeling sick about this. I didn't have anyone else to take this little guy to. Cindy
PS: She also said the larger pigeon had something that felt hard down further in his throat. I don't know about her.

[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 29, 2002).]


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

She shouldn't have done that..He could bleed bad..
She may have just been trying to get some out of the way or push the pill down with the Q-tip as I have done because it wouldn't go down..
As long as she had the pills hopefully they will get well and the canker will fall apart..

Mary


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I would never try to clean out canker. It attaches itself to tissues and capillaries. Pulling out a chunk of canker could start a killer bleed and the bird could drown in its own blood. The only time I ever move some canker out of the way is to clear the tracheal opening so the bird can breathe a bit better or clear a small path to get food, water and medications down into the throat.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

White Wings Ca,
You found some site on the topic. This is one of the best I think I've ever seen.
Did you notice that when the disease is mentioned in birds, it is spelled, "trichamonas" and when it is mentioned with respect to people, it is spelled, "trichanomas?" I wonder why.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Ray,
I just wanted to reply. The lady I was took the pigeon to said and I quote, "I got a lot of canker out of this one, (meaning the larger one) infact I worked so hard he even bled a little bit" She was doing the same thing to the pigeon I took to her, except his wasn't that bad. 
She said she would be happy to teach me everything she knows, which apparently isn't much. 
I will never take another bird to that lady again. That really upsets me. Thanks for the info. Cindy


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