# Possible NYC ban on feeding pigeons



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

This was on Yahoo news today: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071112/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_newyork_pigeons

I see a lot of the same old misinformation about pigeons.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

*Take action to defeat the ban*

Please take a minute to place your vote (only one question):
http://www.amny.com/news/local/am-pigeon-poll,0,936140,post.poll

Any NY members on PT who didn't see this already:

Here is the latest on AM-NY and more scapegoating of pigeons:

Lean times for the city's iconic bird could be ahead as a city
councilman is looking to fine New Yorkers for feeding pigeons their
moldy slices of bread or other scraps. Councilman Simcha Felder,
(D-Brooklyn), will announce a bill today that would make it illegal to
feed pigeons and that would create a "pigeon czar" to be held
accountable for all the city's pigeon-related complaints. The amount
of the proposed fine won't be known until after Felder consults with
the city's lawyers.

see all: 
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/luciedove/vpost?id=2287481

If any of you are free on Wednesday, Nov. 14th at 9:30 a.m., NYU
Broadcasting would like to interview people concerning the Bill that
Councilman Felder is proposing. We will meet in the Union Square
area. If you'd like to be in on the interview, let me know. 

Pigeon Vigil:

We will be meeting on 6 pm on Wednesday, Nov. 14th at Starbucks on 2nd
Ave @ 81st Street to discuss a vigil for the millions of deceased
pigeons that were caught by netters. I suggest that you attend so we
can plan properly.

Things will only get worse for pigeons if we don't take action, as you
can see by the above. The ASPCA is hanging up the phone on people
with pigeon concerns and there are no resources to turn to.

Quoted from Anna, New York Bird Club


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

If this guy succeeds in getting it passed, rescue and rehabilitation in this city will be history. Nobody can afford $1,000 fines and there will be untold suffering. This bird is being scapegoated all over the world by people who are the ones really responsible for making their own cities dirty.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

These councilmen are elected, the way to stop them is to form groups to appose them at election time,also take a look at their backgound to see if they have commited some wrong doing in the past. Talk about recalling the FOOL these are things that the elected officals fear the most is not getting reelected or getting recalled. .GEORGE


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

George,
It will never happen. If there are 500 people in NYC involved with doing this work, it would represent .01% of the 8,200,000 human population here. We just don't have the political clout to do anything. How many people do you think there are who believe in conservation of Nature in the cities? Most people don't care or don't care enough to do anything.
Look at what has happened in London and there are quite a number of UK people on this site. They couldn't do anything to get Ken Livingston out of office and this man here, Felder will be our Ken Livingston.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Very frustrating. I wish someone would educate these politicians in proper pigeon population control. Why can't they adopt the practices of some European cities, where they have built lofts for feral pigeons and have volunteers remove eggs? 

One other thought: has anyone contacted the Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology? They do a "Project Pigeon Watch" as one of their citizen science programs. I'm sure they are already aware of this situation, but if you contact them you might be able to take part in an organized effort by a respected organization. Pigeon lovers need to band together and that would be a good place to start.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Here's the url for Cornell: http://www.birds.cornell.edu/


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Some additional news from the NYCPRC yahoo group:

At City Hall yesterday (11.13), the City Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn, was asked about a proposal by Councilman Simcha Felder, Democrat of Brooklyn, to fine people who feed pigeons. Her reply:

"I am not a fan of pigeons. I have no love of pigeons at all. I find them to be flying rats, and I have no use for them. I don't want to comment on the legislation, and I will not let my personal pigeon position impact my professional pigeon position which I will be taking later upon review of the pigeon possibilities in the legislation, and that's my full use of alliteration for the day. "
*********************************************************
Please note: The person who is considering this ban is Matthew Burdge. He has not come to any decision and it would be helpful if people could send him (polite) but common sense emails which could object to the proposed ban.

His email is [email protected]


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I hate this.

As if NYC doesn't have enough SERIOUS messes to clean up. Some idiot with a hardon for pigeons gets negative legislation like this put up before city leaders, while homeless people wander the streets and sleep in the sewers and subways. If they're looking for a reservoir of infectious pathogens, why not look to the human waste material that must accumulate wherever people with no place to 'go' (pun intended) 
leave it behind?

I'm so sick of hearing that pigeons carry diseases and represent a health threat when in fact they are responsible for cleaning up after our own messes, and we'll be a heck of a lot worse off in our own filth, without birds (and rats for that matter!) cleaning up after us. Getting rid of pigeons will only exacerbate the problems these people allegedly want to improve.

Why don't they invest their energy in any of the hundreds of truly important issues that face them, like providing for the needy and helpless? It makes me want to SCREAM


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

Dezirrae,
Given Quinn's personal opinions about the bird, some form of this proposed legislation will be passed.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm asking for a favor. I've always signed petitions some of you have made. I've sent letters as far away as Spain and the UK on behalf of these birds. Here is the email address for the Speaker of the NYC Council. Please let her know how you feel about starving a million birds to death. 

http://www.nyccouncil.info/rightnow/contactspkr.cfm


Here is a copy of the letter I sent to her:

Ms Quinn,
There are many NYC residents who love, rescue and rehabilitate pigeons, far more than you may realize. The bird has been given a great deal of bad press over the years but everyone fails to realize that if you call the pigeons dirty and if that is true, then it is because they are forced to live in a city made dirty by people. Given a chance, these birds will bathe once a day to keep their feathers in good shape. Given half a chance, these birds will keep themselves a lot cleaner than many New Yorkers.
These birds are being scapegoated by people who have no other answers to the city's problems but it is not an answer to visit the equivalent of a genocide onto these birds. They are already malnourished because of the lack of their natural diet, seeds. Forced to live on scraps, they only have a survival rate of about 3 years out of a potential 30. The answer that humans have to these types of challenges is always to kill, never to think that what they are doing has consequences to the natural world and that is why our planet is being pulled out from under us.
These birds live in a symbiotic relationship with people. They like people. Is it asking too much to give something back to pigeons that have won medals in both World Wars for saving human life? Give them their lives.
Mr. Felder is ignorant of the fact that pigeons do not go into trash cans as he claims. Mr. Felder full well knows on the other hand, that people do. Pigeons were revered by the Egyptians for their droppings which were and are an excellent fertilizer. Is it the birds' fault that they now have to make their droppings on concrete? Whose fault it is doesn't matter. Simply starve the birds to death because it is more convenient than any other solution including simply hosing down areas.
People despise Nature and move away from it. They do not realize that the human race is part of it and depends on it for its survival. Little by little, as we rapidly eliminate plant and animal life, we are eliminating ourselves. Are you going to help Mr. Felder perpetuate that course we are all on?
Suggestions that people be allowed to feed in designated areas around the city or be awarded permits to feed as long as they don't leave enough for rodents is far better than what Mr. Felder wants to do.
Don't let him further the cause of destroying our planet by starving thousands of birds. He doesn't understand and all I can do is hope that you do.
Sincerely,


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

I love you letter! That's great 

We can also post online at the NY Times blogs:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/13/all-pigeon-politics-is-personal/


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Greatly stated, PigeonPerson!

I casted my vote as well as the following comment...

"As long as there are millions of 'human rats' that don't dispose of their food garbage properly, there will always be our Pigeon friends to clean up after them!"

Don't think we have to stress over this one guys...many NYC residents are lazy and will always discard food for these little guys whether intentionally or not....hence the large pigeon population. The percentage of persons that purposely feed pigeons is very small compared to those who do so unintentionally.

I'm not so concerned about the 'not-to-do' as I'd be with other 'to-do' methods that may come up! For sure we gotta keep an eye and ear on that aspect!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

Thanks very much to both of you. Here are two statements made by someone and which I received by email. They're both very good. 

1. Mr. Felder must be asked to prove with data his contention that
pigeons pose a significant disease threat in the city. He will not be able
to prove it because it's not true. Hopefully he will look like a fool
being while to back up his statement with facts.

2. The Council must be made to understand that the ecological niche
currently occuppied by pigeons (as street cleaners) will be filled by rats
again if the birds are not maintained in sufficient population density
to hold their territories. They should be reminded of the serious rat
overpopulation problems that the city endured in the 1990s, which
resolved when the pigeon population became sufficiently strong to keep rats
from surviving in numbers in the areas that the pigeons had taken over.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

My 13 year old daughter went to NY over the summer and she said the best thing was seeing all the pigeons and feeding them, she said she even had a few land on her which she said was so funny  I can say this much if I were to go to NY and not be able to feed the pigeons then I wouldn't waste my money going to NY as that is also one of the neat things to do.

Cindy


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

*Proposal is available online*

If anyone would like to read the entire proposal, it can be viewed online (PDF file): 
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/city_room/20071112_pigeonreport.pdf

The more vocal we are the better! Thanks everyone who has voted, posted an opinion, written a letter, etc. -- keep them coming 

There is also going to be a Nov. 30 rally at City Hall -- if you'd like more information on the rally, join the Pigeon People Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PijnPeople/


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

Dezirrae,
I read the entire proposal and will have to reread it to fully absorb it all. Right now, all I can point out is that there is a vast difference between 'could possibly ' and 'definitely will' The diseases listed are present in almost all wildlife. The vast majority of wildbirds carry the organism responsible for ornithosis. Crypotoccocus is mainly seen in cats and I've never heard of a pigeon carrying it. Histoplasmosis is a fungus and is present in the soil, worldwide. Pigeons can come down with it because they peck in the soil but so do dogs and cats and children playing in the dirt. The salmonella pigeons get is not usually the kind that people come down with. Newcastle is a generic term for a family of 7 viruses and many sub categories. Pigeons and doves get PMV-1. Parrots get PMV-2. Humans get measles from another 'Newcastle' disease. They are different diseases and don't cross over. The proposal throws so much at the pigeon that is unfair. As far as the other diseases mentioned, all animals can come down with them and the pigeon is not the vector for transmisssion or else we would all be deathly ill. I have yet to find one person who can claim they became ill from a pigeon.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> Dezirrae,
> I read the entire proposal and will have to reread it to fully absorb it all. Right now, all I can point out is that there is a vast difference between 'could possibly ' and 'definitely will' The diseases listed are present in almost all wildlife. The vast majority of wildbirds carry the organism responsible for ornithosis. Crypotoccocus is mainly seen in cats and I've never heard of a pigeon carrying it. Histoplasmosis is a fungus and is present in the soil, worldwide. Pigeons can come down with it because they peck in the soil but so do dogs and cats and children playing in the dirt. The salmonella pigeons get is not usually the kind that people come down with. Newcastle is a generic term for a family of 7 viruses and many sub categories. Pigeons and doves get PMV-1. Parrots get PMV-2. Humans get measles from another 'Newcastle' disease. They are different diseases and don't cross over. The proposal throws so much at the pigeon that is unfair. As far as the other diseases mentioned, all animals can come down with them and the pigeon is not the vector for transmisssion or else we would all be deathly ill. I have yet to find one person who can claim they became ill from a pigeon.


You are right. We are more likely to become ill from second hand contact with another human being, such as door knobs, grocery cart handles, public and private restrooms and the list just goes on and on...
I forgot to mention, air!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Just a thought. Testimonies (maybe even have them notarized) from 'hard core' rehabbers could be beneficial.

The fact some have worked directly with pigeons for years & have endured probably every kind of situation known, however have never encounted an illness directly involving pigeons and/or their poop, should account for some kind of positive reinforecment. 

Cindy


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

I realize this is a duplication but I combined thoughts and sent this to the Council member who originated the proposal.

Mr. Felder,
There are many NYC residents who love, rescue and rehabilitate pigeons, far more than you may realize. The bird has been given a great deal of bad press over the years but everyone fails to realize that if you call the pigeons dirty and if that is true, then it is because they are forced to live in a city made dirty by people. The cure for a dirty city does not lie in causing unnecessary suffering of a gentle and harmless bird. Given a chance, these birds will bathe once a day to keep their feathers in good shape. Given half a chance, these birds will keep themselves a lot cleaner than many New Yorkers.
These birds are being scapegoated by people who have no other answers to the city's problems but it is not an answer to visit the equivalent of a genocide onto these birds. They are already malnourished because of the lack of their natural diet, seeds. Forced to live on scraps, they only have a survival rate of about 3 years out of a potential 30. The answer that humans have to these types of challenges is always to kill, never to think that what they are doing has consequences to the natural world and that is why our planet is being pulled out from under us.
These birds live in a symbiotic relationship with people. They like people. Is it asking too much to give something back to pigeons that have won medals in both World Wars for saving human life? Give them their lives.
Mr. Felder, the pigeons do not go into trashcans as you claim. You full well know on the other hand, that people do. Pigeons were revered by the Egyptians for their droppings, which were and are an excellent fertilizer. Is it the birds' fault that they now have to make their droppings on concrete? Whose fault it is doesn't matter. Simply starve the birds to death because it is more convenient than any other solution including simply hosing down areas.
People despise Nature and move away from it. They do not realize that the human race is part of it and depends on it for its survival. Little by little, as we rapidly eliminate plant and animal life, we are eliminating ourselves. Are you going to help perpetuate that course we are all on?
I read the entire proposal and will have to reread it to fully absorb it all. Right now, all I can point out is that there is a vast difference between 'could possibly ' and 'definitely will.' The diseases listed are present in almost all wildlife. The vast majority of wild birds carry the organism responsible for Ornithosis. Crypotoccocus is mainly seen in cats and I've never heard of a pigeon carrying it. Histoplasmosis is a fungus and is present in the soil, worldwide. Pigeons can come down with it because they peck in the soil but so do dogs and cats and children playing in the dirt. The salmonella pigeons get is not usually the kind that people come down with. Newcastles is a generic term for a family of 7 viruses also called Paramyxo disease and there are many sub categories. Pigeons and doves get PMV-1. Parrots get PMV-2. Humans get measles from another 'Newcastles' disease. They are different diseases and don't cross over. The proposal throws so much at the pigeon that is unfair. As far as the other diseases mentioned, all animals can come down with them and the pigeon is not the vector for transmission or else we would all be deathly ill. I have yet to find one person who can claim they became ill from a pigeon.
Suggestions that people be allowed to feed in designated areas around the city or be awarded permits to feed as long as they don't leave enough for rodents are far better than what you want to do. Don't cause further destruction of our planet by starving thousands of birds.


Sincerely,


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think that we need veterinarians and medical doctors to make a stand and educate. Dose anyone know of some that would be willing to do that?


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

Charis,
I think that is an excellent idea. I hope that vets will come to the defense of these birds when the hearings on this proposal come.There is already precedent for the proposals put into operation within the UK and elsewhere so they have a lot of ammunition to work with. Something will be passed so all we can hope for is that it won't be so Draconian in scope.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2007)

Cindy,
Politicians don't listen to reason. They get an idea in their heads and don't want to be confused by the facts. These birds don't vote and that's all they care about.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> Charis,
> I think that is an excellent idea. I hope that vets will come to the defense of these birds when the hearings on this proposal come.There is already precedent for the proposals put into operation within the UK and elsewhere so they have a lot of ammunition to work with. Something will be passed so all we can hope for is that it won't be so Draconian in scope.


We all need to ask our personal veterinarians to send a letter favorable to the plight of the pigeon. I will ask Deb.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

I heard from another board that interns actually wrote the proposal and may have used outdated references -- figures!

If the Council really wants to protect citizens against disease why not do something about the air quality! Oh, but no - I forgot - that would actually inconvenience people and businesses -- silly me...

I think you hit the nail on the head Pigeonperson - that birds don't vote. What a shame - I'll bet some of them are more intelligent than some of the people who vote  

AZWhitefeather and Charis - fantastic ideas about testimonials & education!! I don't think they need to be from NY to make an impact, but there is a clinic in NYC that's refered to as AG on Pigeon People -- I'll post to that group and maybe someone in the city can talk to someone at that clinic about adding their voice. The staff at AG treat many of the injuried/rescued pigeons in the city with extreme compassion from what I hear/read.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I haven't waded through the proposal but am responding to the comments from PP. If it leads the reader to believe that pigeons are vectors for all of the diseases mentioned, it is deliberately misleading, and preying on people's ignorance.

Each such claim can and should be refuted, specifically and in detail. 

The local constituency needs to be made aware of the fact that their elected officials are (1) deliberately misleading them and (2) assume they are stupid enough to fall for it. 

Deliberately misleading the public should be grounds for recall or dismissal!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Cindy,
> * *Politicians don't listen to reason. *
> They get an idea in their heads and don't want to be confused by the facts.
> 
> ** *These birds don't vote and that's all they care about*.


* Well, then they aren't going to give a rats behind about *your* letter, Fred, because it *is* chock full of reason.  

We need to get whatever positive information we can to these people. Whether it be a personal letter, documented facts or vets offering their two cents worth. It *ALL * helps!

The politicians would love nothing better than for us live by the old adage, 'Out of Sight, Out of Mind'.  

** They're probably grateful birds can't vote.  
However, pigeon supporters *CAN*. 

Cindy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Here is a link I came across concerning this issue.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21790392/?gt1=10547


I doubt my opinion on feeding ferals would be much appreciated with such an emotional issue. But, there is alot to be said for not feeding the ferals. Same with ducks at our local city pond, and our local feral cat population. It causes an increase in the population, and causes birds to act less naturally. Such as the local ducks not flying south for the winter, and causing the pigeons to rear additional young. But, I do feel for the people who enjoy the simple pleasure of feeding the pigeons in the park. When I was a child, there are very old, home movies of me feeding the pigeons at the Zoo and ignoring the animals my parents paid to let me see.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I feel that I must make a side comment, Warren, about not feeding feral cats.

That may work in a perfect world, but the T/N/R (Trap/Neuter/Return) program for feral cats is designed to cut DOWN on the feral cat population. By neutering these cats, they will not reproduce...by _returning_ them to where they live, will help prevent NEW cats (usually NOT neutered) from moving in and compounding the problem. Feeding them a decent diet will help prevent diseases.

Shi

P.S. I really liked your letter, PP!!


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Well! I sent my letter. There was alot I wanted to say, but I would of still been writing.


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

> Please note: The person who is considering this ban is Matthew Burdge. He has not come to any decision and it would be helpful if people could send him (polite) but common sense emails which could object to the proposed ban.
> 
> His email is [email protected]


You New Yorkers know your Council better than me so ... would it help if this guy got a load of emails/letters from the UK or would the Council take the view that it's nothing to do with outsiders and be counterproductive? We have 100's of volunteers on our email action list.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It breaks my heart how so many people can't understand like we do. I wish someday people will see how important they are and have been, and will love them like many people worldwide do right now. They are clean, and are immune to all but two rare (I think) strains of the Avain flu, since many people are concerned about that. Nobody has ever gotten sick from a pigeon, especially not anything fatal. Tell me, would you rather have a nice, harmless, affectionate pigeon as a pet....or a cat that could get rabis and scratch you like crazy, or prehaps even a dog that could attack you at any moment and cause serious injuries?
Besides...what other animal can you take miles away, release, and find them home before you? 
_'If you love something, set it free. If it returns, it is yours to love forever' _


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

I have filed a cruelty complaint with the ASPCA against the ASPCA. Perhaps some of you would do the same. Their cruelty email address is [email protected]

With your own words copied below, you have embarked on a policy of animal cruelty. You already chose to ignore pigeon nettings reports resulting in the death of untold thousands of birds in pigeon shoots and dog hunting activities. With your own words, you intend to support the Felder proposal which will result in the untold suffering of about 1,000,000,000 pigeons in New York City.

If you are ignorant of the terrible plight of these birds and their struggle to survive on scraps of food that do not represent the diet they should be on, you should be. You should have undertaken a study of it before issuing your statement. If you do not understand that these birds keep the rat population down by competing for the little food there is, you should have been aware of it. If you are not aware that their droppings do not represent a threat to people, you should be. If you are not aware that the beloved hawk, Pale Male and his offspring, rely on these birds to survive, you should have. Mr. Felder should have been aware of these things and so should you. You have chosen to be on the side of ignorance.

The most docile bird in the world is subjected to torture by sick individuals. They are deliberately run down by cars driven by sadists. They are grabbed and tortured by sadistic children. They are poisoned by very sick people. Now they are going to be starved to death. How could you have allied yourself with Mr. Felder?

With my words above and your statements below, I am filing a report of animal cruelty with you and perhaps you will take heed of the following words written by a very wise person, "Physician, heal thyself."

If I'm ever tempted in the future to donate to your organization, I'll be reminded of your position on the Felder proposal.



ASPCA Issues Statement on New York City’s Pigeon Population
Councilman Simcha Felder’s Proposes Bill to Prohibit Feeding Pigeons
ASPCA Media Contact
NEW YORK, November 12, 2007—The ASPCA has recently learned of Councilman Simcha Felder’s bill proposal to fine those found feeding pigeons in New York City. As an advocate for all animals, with a special interest in the animals located in our own city, we support this provision for a variety of reasons:
The pigeon population is well-known among New Yorkers and not usually very well received. Therefore, while we appreciate these creatures as part of our regional landscape, we also acknowledge that it is important to maintain their population so that they do not impede the health and sanctity of our city.
By nature, pigeons are extremely resourceful cliff-dwelling birds, who are particularly adept at securing nesting places among the many hi-rises and bridges throughout the five boroughs. This hardy constitution enables the birds to breed prolifically. As such, New York has become the home to an astronomical number of these creatures.
In order to curb the extensive pigeon population, the City has adopted a number of solutions to maintain a healthy environment. Key among these provisions is the issuing of summonses to those found feeding the pigeons in violation of Health Code regulations. Providing food for pigeons not only causes an influx of birds to the area, but can also attract unwanted rodents and insects as well, thereby contaminating an area in a very short amount of time.
Councilman Felder’s proposal is one that will ensure the pigeons will not be encouraged to reproduce by otherwise well-meaning citizens. We hope to work directly with the Councilman in order to ensure that the animals and people of New York City are treated with the respect and dignity they so deserve.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Niel said:


> You New Yorkers know your Council better than me so ... would it help if this guy got a load of emails/letters from the UK or would the Council take the view that it's nothing to do with outsiders and be counterproductive? We have 100's of volunteers on our email action list.


Niel,
I would think that any help from your side of the world could not hurt at all. I would tell those volunteers to email away.

Great letter, Pigeonperson.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Charis,
I don't know what else to do. One person alone can't effect any changes. Niel, any help you can give would be very gratefully received. If you need email addresses, take a look at the other posts.
I'm sure that other U.S. cities are looking to NYC for what will happen and if this proposal passes, then coming soon to a city near you......


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

OK, I'll get an "Action Alert" out to those on our e-volunteers list.


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Neil, These pigeons need all the help they get at this point. Just think of this if NYC gets this passed all other States in the US and Countries over sea might start doing the same. I was born and raised in Upstate NY, but spent half of my life growing up in the city and the thing I always loved most about the city was the pigeons. The last time I was there which was June of 2005, I fed my lunch to the pigeons, starlings, and sparrows and ended up not eating because I fed it all to the birds. With enough help from people all over the US and other Countries, maybe just maybe we can stop this proposal from being passed. I know I sent letters even though I no longer live in NYS. 

Fred, I loved your letter to the ASPCA, it was ecellent. I'm going to write them also today.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

littlestar,
Thank you so much. If it's good, that's because it's coming from the heart. At this point, I've run out of ideas. One person can do only so much.


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

> littlestar,
> Thank you so much. If it's good, that's because it's coming from the heart. At this point, I've run out of ideas. One person can do only so much.


Fred, Your welcome and I hear you, I also write from the heart like you. I only wish I still lived in NYS, but I will do what I can from down here in NC. I'm asking everyone I know how loves pigeons to please write even though they don't live in the city, and maybe if they see how many people there are that love pigeons, it migh make a difference. I seen one on NYCPRC sent some wrong info, but in my letter I wrote that pigeons are no harm to humans and that I am also a rehabber of pigeons and work with them everyday and never caught anything from them. I'm bad because I also told them no fine will stop me from feeding them.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

littlestar said:


> Fred, Your welcome and I hear you, I also write from the heart like you. I only wish I still lived in NYS, but I will do what I can from down here in NC. I'm asking everyone I know how loves pigeons to please write even though they don't live in the city, and maybe if they see how many people there are that love pigeons, it migh make a difference. I seen one on NYCPRC sent some wrong info, but in my letter I wrote that pigeons are no harm to humans and that I am also a rehabber of pigeons and work with them everyday and never caught anything from them. I'm bad because I also told them no fine will stop me from feeding them.


Yet another kindred spirit.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I was about to say that your letter was excellent, Fred, but I was very sorry to find this:



> If you are not aware that the beloved hawk, Pale Male and his offspring, rely on these birds to survive, you should have.


You have mentioned your anxiety to help pigeons in New York survive and thrive *just* so that they can be eaten alive by hawks before, and this sickens me. How many pigeons would you sacrifice each year to keep a single hawk alive? Surely the gentle, people loving pigeon deserves more than this as "support"! This attitude reminds me somehow of Lewis Carroll's the Walrus and the Carpenter and the oysters:

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.


Cynthia


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Cynthia, Fred is not that kind of person to save pigeons just so hawks can eat. He is a very caring person and has helped many of pigeons in need that were in very bad shape. We all know that feral pigeons are in danger everyday of their life and there is not much we can do to keep them all safe from hawks and NYC does have hawks and unfortunately they do go after the feral pigeon.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Mary Ann,

This is not a question about whether we can protect pigeons, or any other birds, from hawks. And I would never harm a hawk or object to their being rescued and rehabilitated. But if I saw a hawk heading towards a pigeon I would do my utmost to save the pigeon because I would rather see *that* particular hawk go hungry than to see *that* particular pigeon eaten alive. And when I rescue a pigeon I make certain that I do not release it in a hawk's feeding ground.

I have known Fred for a long time now and he has made it clear in the past that he objects humane methods of pigeon control *because that might lead to a food shortage for the hawks over the winter! * To me that indicates that he puts the welfare of the hawks in general well above the welfare of the pigeons . I find this unacceptable , particulary on this forum.

If any of you share the belief that pigeons are primarily a food source for hawks and that they should be protected for that reason then please keep your opinions off this forum.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Cynthia,
I'm sorry that you took the statement in a way it wasn't intended. You have no idea of the exuberance that exists in Manhattan over this hawk and his mate. People are always there to take pictures and there is a site devoted to this particular bird. Once, the building where these birds nest, ripped it down and there was such an outcry from NYC residents, the building rebuilt the nest with supports so that it would remain sturdy. I don't appreciate the hawks but many, many New Yorkers do and I wanted to bring up this point for that reason. People who don't work with wildlife are pretty telescopic. They don't understand the implications of what they do and that includes my favorite Councilman, Mr. Felder.

In the winter, the supply of rodents tends to dry up and hawks then look for pigeons to fill in the gap. You can't imagine my feelings when birds that I have helped, go missing during the hawk season. I lose friends every winter because of these birds and I don't like how it makes me feel. I used this reference to Pale Male to remind people that their beloved birds could go starving without the pigeons. I don't like what hawks do to the pigeons but I used it to try and capture some attention to the fact that not only hawks were introduced in the City to curb the rat population but also Peregrine falcons, an endangered bird. The ecological balance will definitely be affected and that's the point I was trying to make. Again, I don't like what hawks do but at least it's a part of Nature. What people do to pigeons is inhumane and not part of Nature.

I hope I was able to clear up this misunderstanding for any comments I may have made in the past and now. I'm very much a pigeon person.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Fred, 

Had this been the first time that you had referred to the importance of pigeons as hawk food I would have recognised and might even have applauded the ploy in your letter. But although you may mourn the loss of your own rescues in winter you have not explained your previous objections to humane pigeon control on the grounds that it might leave the hawks hungry: 



> We don't know the impact the birth control might have on the birds' natural predators like hawks and falcons…..The story about Pale Male is wonderful but what happens if there are no more pigeons and the rodent supply disappears during winter months as it does?


There were no "Pale Male" fans involved in that thread, just pigeon lovers that were trying to find a solution that would afford all feral pigeons a better life. 


Cynthia


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Cynthia,
I apologize for any statements that may have offended you. You posted an article about a town that is using humane control methods but that town, if I remember correctly, was working with only 170 pairs of pigeons. There are about 1,000,000 pigeons in NYC. Humane methods to control these numbers automatically become inhumane. If you believe in pigeon cotes, then please consider that we have pigeon netters here and a cote will be a draw for them. Then, those birds go to pigeon shoots. It will be very easy for them to collect these birds if they are in cotes. Also, any epidemic in a cote such as PMV could kill most if not all these birds. For those reasons, I am unalterably opposed to any kind of controls to keep the numbers down. You may not understand my position because you don't have people running around your city, netting birds so they can be shot as target practice but that is exactly what is happening here every day and I do not want to make it easier for these savages.

It is so easy for me to understand why this city and the ASPCA take a blind eye to pigeon netting and I don't for the life of me understand why others opposed to the nettings don't see it. It's because there is a hidden agenda to get rid of these birds and officials will not do anything to stop this unofficial policy. Obviously, they would like the pigeon shoots in Pennsylvania to eradicate all the birds.

I don't know what else to say about it.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I think it is very strange that people OOH and AAH over a hawk that lives in the city but condemn all pigeons without so much as a thought. That is so contradictory to me. Maybe I should not be surprised...people are strange.



> If I'm ever tempted in the future to donate to your organization, I'll be reminded of your position on the Felder proposal.


Hmm yeah they are now the ASCA - just leave out the 'prevention' part...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Fred,

If I misunderstood your reasons for posting your concerns for the future of predators if pigeon numbers were reduced, then I apologise.

I will continue to fight for humane control of pigeons, just because I love pigeons and know that there is hatred and cruelty towards them because of the large numbers that congregate in specific locations and the media attention that this attracts. As for disease, when there are cotes any diseases are recognised and treated quickly, so you have healthier pigeons with an increased life span. 

Cynthia


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Cynthia,
Let's let this go. We both love and want to protect them.There is a much larger concern and a lot at stake. I'm out of ideas and have used up all of my ammunition. There are others involved with this so I'm certainly not alone. I just have to wait to see what the others say and do and hopefully, try to help. Hopefully, they will have much more influence than I. I've never felt more powerless than now.

This situation reminds me of the Passenger Pigeon. The people of that time wanted to control their numbers and they sure did. There's no sense in ever mentioning a Balance of Nature anymore. We've ruined this planet and no balance exists anywhere.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

A few new actions from the Pigeon People group in NYC -- 
There is now an online petition you can sign (I believe someone may be doing a petition in Felder's neighborhood as well - just FYI):
http://www.youchoose.net/campaign/petition_against_simcha_felders_proposal

And a press release that the group wrote over the weekend:
Please help New Yorkers Fight Felder's war on Pigeons
19th November 2007 
Please assist us in defending the pigeons of NY from councelman 
Simcha Felder's "WAR" on pigeons. These animals are companion animals 
to many new Yorkers. His proposal is beyond cruel to both the pigeons 
and us humans who may have to watch him murder our feathered friends. 
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/city_room/20071112_pigeon
report.pdf 

Contact: Lori Barrett
[email protected] / (347) 405-9584 For Immediate Release

Contact: Al Streit 
[email protected] / (212) 873-6030 For Immediate Release

Contact: Joanna Tierno
[email protected] / (718) 980-5631 For Immediate Release

Council Member Felder's Proposed $1,000 Fine on Pigeon Feeding Based 
on Severely Flawed Report, Scathing Analysis Reveals

Brooklyn, NY, November 17, 2007 * Council Member Simcha Felder's 
proposed $1,000 fine for feeding pigeons is based on a report that 
severely distorts CDC information about public health risks; 
misconstrues animal and environmental protection law; and lacks 
scientific data. A scathing critique (attached) of the Felder Report 
by Brooklyn attorney Lori Barrett was released Saturday.

On November 12, 2007, Council Member Felder (44th District, Brooklyn) 
and likely candidate for the 2009 City Comptroller race, released a 
report entitled Curbing the Pigeon Conundrum, proposing that persons 
be fined $1,000 for feeding pigeons and the creation of a new 
taxpayer-funded position called the "Pigeon Czar." According to 
Felder's staff, the proposed law will be introduced before the end of 
the year. 

"What's so striking about the Felder Report is the would-be 
comptroller's shameless distortion of facts published by the Center 
for Disease Control ("CDC") and his heavy reliance on secondary and 
decades-old source material," said Barrett, an attorney and former 
president of the NYU School of Law Student Animal Legal Defense Fund. 

The Felder Report begins "The uncontrolled pigeon population in New 
York City poses a threat to public health . . ." Not so according to 
CDC data. For example, histoplasmosis, one of the diseases cited in 
Felder's study, grows in soil not concrete. It is most prevalent in 
the Ohio and Mississippi River Valleys and is caused mostly by 
blackbird droppings. A 2004 study published in the Journal of 
Microbiology refutes the council member's claim that salmonella food 
poisoning is a serious health risk associated with city pigeon 
droppings, a claim based on a 13-year old U.S. Department of 
Agriculture pamphlet heavily relied on by Felder. 

The Felder Report attributes $1.1 billion in annual nationwide damage 
to pigeon droppings, based on an un-sourced figure in a 2006 New York 
Times article. Research has disclosed that the Times' figure was 
based on rough estimates in David Pimentel's book Biological 
Invasions. To put the figure in context, Pimentel estimated that the 
cost of damage by pigeons is on par with that of the Asian clam ($1 
billion) and exotic fish ($1 billion). Pimentel's book estimates that 
weeds cost about $33 billion in damage, rats cost $19 billion in 
damage, and domesticated and feral cats cost $17 billion. Notably, 
pigeon-related damage reported to the USDA is much lower than 
Pimentel's estimate * only $12.7 million in an eight-year period from 
FY 1990-1997. 

In a November 13 interview on New York Public Radio, Leslie Day, 
naturalist, teacher, and author of The Field Guide to the Natural 
World of New York City, opined that "I don't think it's a good idea 
to fine people $1,000 for feeding birds . . . pigeons are such benign 
animals . . . they don't attack anybody or hurt anybody." Day 
observed that birds enrich the lives of many City-dwellers, noting 
that City schools are involved in the Cornell University Lab of 
Ornithology's Pigeon Watch Program in which children learn about 
wildlife through observing pigeons. 

Barrett's critique blasts Felder for failing to produce any 
scientific data on the number of pigeons in New York City and 
population growth, the relationship between recreational bird feeding 
and pigeon population, and the overall environmental impact of the 
proposal. Instead of being motivated by a real threat, Felder's 
proposal appears to be prompted by personal hysteria, his 6-year old 
daughter's ornithophobia (said Felder on WNYC, "I have a six-year old 
daughter that's frightened out of her mind of these pigeons"), and 
his sense that most New Yorkers are anti-pigeon. 

Barrett states, "I think that Council Member Felder is wrong about 
people's attitudes about pigeons. I know a lot of people in North 
Crown Heights, Brooklyn who have either rescued injured pigeons, 
raised them as kids, or go to Brower Park to feed them. Even if 
Felder were right, making a decision to reduce a sentient species of 
animals predominantly on the basis of public sentiment is morally 
unjustifiable. What's next, a proposal from a dog-loving politician 
to stop feeding cats because they cost more in damage than pigeons?" 

If you'd like more information about the critique of the Felder 
report, please contact Lori Barrett at [email protected].


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2007)

Dezirrae,
I can't thank you enough for this additional information. I immediately signed the petition and emailed Lori Barrett and Joanna Tierno. If you have any other sources of information, please post them.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Niel said:


> You New Yorkers know your Council better than me so ... would it help if this guy got a load of emails/letters from the UK or would the Council take the view that it's nothing to do with outsiders and be counterproductive? We have 100's of volunteers on our email action list.


Neil -- Thank you for activating your email action list  

I don't know if you're a member of STTSP (Save The Trafalgar Square Pigeons), but they have also recently joined in sending emails of support.

As always, the more support the pigeons have, the better - thank you... everyone!


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Complete versions of the press release, the critique of Felder's report, and contact information for the NYC Council are posted on http://www.enidcrow.com/pigeonpeople.htm


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Dezirrae this is great info and hooray for everyone who's fighting back! I don't know if non-NYC residents 'count' when signing the petition, but as soon as the page loads I am signing too.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

TheSnipes said:


> Dezirrae this is great info and hooray for everyone who's fighting back! I don't know if non-NYC residents 'count' when signing the petition, but as soon as the page loads I am signing too.


IMHO - everyone and every voice of objection counts! So thank you for signing too... If NYC Council members realize that their attempt at animal cruelity will attract world-wide attention I would think, and HOPE, that would be a deterant.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Great work, Dezirrae.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

*Press Conference & Rally - November 28*

Thanks BirdMom4ever - but I cannot take any of the credit here - I'm simply cross posting from the great work done by the group Pigeon People. The dedication this group has demonstrated in pulling together actionable plans is really impressive.

Latest news: 
Press Conference to be held on Steps of City Hall. Please attend, with your help we can make a difference in the lives of thousands of pigeons!

What: Oppose sponsored bill by Simcha Felder (D) Brooklyn to 'ban feeding of New York City 
pigeons'. 
Where: Steps of City Hall, 131 Duane Street between Chambers and Vesey Streets in Manhattan. 
When: Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 1:30PM - 3:00PM
Transportation: Subway 4,5 to Brooklyn Bridge; R,W to City Hall; A,C, 2,3 to Fulton Hall.

Even if you cannot attend in person you're opinion DOES COUNT!
The time to outreach is now, and it's absolutely critical that the Speaker's office be flooded with opposition to this proposal. You will be connected to her voice mail for your comments. Speaker Christine Quinn (D-Manhattan), (212) 788-7210

For everyone that has written a letter, sent an email, made a phone call, or told a friend -- THANK YOU!!! For all those who will, or are, planning to do the same - we need your support now (and thank you in advance  )


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## Niel (May 25, 2005)

> Neil -- Thank you for activating your email action list
> 
> I don't know if you're a member of STTSP (Save The Trafalgar Square Pigeons), but they have also recently joined in sending emails of support.


Hi, sorry, I sould have elaborated; it's me who writes the STTSP Action Alerts and that's the email list I was referring to!

Cheers, Niel


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

I think that is fantastic - thank you so much Niel. Al was very appreciative as well and notified everyone on the list of your assistance.


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## luciedove (Nov 22, 2007)

*Rally on Friday, November 30th for NY's pigeons*

What: Rally & Press Conference in opposition to Councilman Simcha Felder's bill (Fine $1,000 for pigeon feeding).

Where: Steps of City Hall, New York, NY 
Located within the small City Hall Park in lower Manhattan between Broadway, Park Row and Chambers Street. 
Transportation: 
Subway: 4,5,6 to Brooklyn Bridge - City Hall; R,W,N,R to City Hall; A,C,J,M,2,3 to Chambers Street.

When: Friday, November 30th at Noon to 1.

Contact Info: [email protected] 

Website: http://www.peopleforpigeons.com


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