# URGENT Pox pigeon with huge swelling around beak



## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Hello!

A pigeon with pox has been in my care for almost 6 weeks now. It seemed like the pox was healing, but maybe 3 weeks ago it started to develop a swelling around it's beak. he's been on Baytril for almost 2 weeks now, 0.05 ml twice a day and for a few days also meloxicam 0.1 once a day.
the first couple of days on Baytril the swelling reduced, then it suddenly started to grow. now it started under the beak and on the other side and it#s going towards the head. The vet said there is nothing we can do because he has to fight it himself, I also give anima strath etc. Honestly today I'm not sure if he will eat so I might have to force feed him.
Is there anything else I can do, he's been doing so well for a few weeks and I really don't want him suffer so much

I have uploaded a video here: Loom | Free Screen & Video Recording Software

Thank you.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Why are you giving baytril? The meds won't cure him and can actually do more harm as all the good bacteria gets killed off as well. Only give meds when you are sure there is a secondary infection. Canker and pox go together, so you need to look out for that.

Can you post a photo of his droppings? Rather give him vitamins, probiotics and natural unfiltered apple cider vinegar in the drinking water.

Maud had a small pimple on her beak when I found her and the pox started growing until the growths dried up and fall off. Took 2 1/2 months from start to finish.















He lost part of his beak and had to learn how to eat again. Throughout his recovery he was able to feed himself.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Why are you giving baytril? The meds won't cure him and can actually do more harm as all the good bacteria gets killed off as well. Only give meds when you are sure there is a secondary infection. Canker and pox go together, so you need to look out for that.
> 
> Can you post a photo of his droppings? Rather give him vitamins, probiotics and natural unfiltered apple cider vinegar in the drinking water.
> 
> ...


yes, the pox has healed and fell off. Then a blister appeared near the beak and the vet prescribed baytril. It’s pus and blood, for a couple of days it dried off butnow it grows and it gets worse. The vet said there is not much more we can do because the body has to fight it itself. I give vitamins, unfortunately now it’s so bad he won’t eat so I have to force feed him. I will send a picture of his droppings as soon as I’m home. Alsojust to clarify I have two birds, this one with pox and the dove with canker. Thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The vets always prescribe baytril. It's still the pox, will take a while longer to heal. Have you checked inside his beak lately? If there's no wet pox (in front of the beak) or canker (more towards the back of the beak) then he will be ok. Leave his seeds in a deep bowl for easier eating.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> The vets always prescribe baytril. It's still the pox, will take a while longer to heal. Have you checked inside his beak lately? If there's no wet pox (in front of the beak) or canker (more towards the back of the beak) then he will be ok. Leave his seeds in a deep bowl for easier eating.


What’s wet pox? So it’s like an abscess. It’s a swelling filled with pus and blood; inside the beak there is also pus and some blood. I try to clean it with saline. There is no canker, at least visible, but also no canker symptoms. He was doing great but the swelling keeps expanding, now it’s also on the other side of the beak and under the beak and seems to be going towards the eye. He doesn’t seem to eat, probably because of pain and because it’s uncomfortable. I obviously can feed him with Harrison and a syringe but I’m really worried it will turn into a worse infection that spreads everywhere. He’s been doing so great before. So there is nothing else I can do besides supporting his immune system and helping him eat until he eats alone again? Thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Photo of the droppings plse. And also a close up of the swelling if possible. Wet pox is when the pox start growing inside the beak. This is often fatal as this intefere with eating and sometimes breathing.

Is the Harrison powdered food? If so, mix with a little bit of water to form a soft clay. Then make small pea size balls and handfeed by putting one at a time deep inside the beak over the tongue. Let him drink water after feeding, the balls will dissolve and digest easy.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If the swelling is soft and you suspect only pus and blood, maybe you can try and drain it. Especially if it's getting worse. After draining, rinse the whole inside of the pocket a couple of times with saline water.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Photo of the droppings plse. And also a close up of the swelling if possible. Wet pox is when the pox start growing inside the beak. This is often fatal as this intefere with eating and sometimes breathing.
> 
> Is the Harrison powdered food? If so, mix with a little bit of water to form a soft clay. Then make small pea size balls and handfeed by putting one at a time deep inside the beak over the tongue. Let him drink water after feeding, the balls will dissolve and digest easy.


Yes, I mix it with Water and anima strath so it's a thick mixture, kind of like baby food. I will send pictures of the beak and droppings in the next post. thank you!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> If the swelling is soft and you suspect only pus and blood, maybe you can try and drain it. Especially if it's getting worse. After draining, rinse the whole inside of the pocket a couple of times with saline water.




































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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor thing. That doesn't look like a pox growth. It's possible he scratched himself and this started an infection. Try to soften that hardened part a bit and gently try to remove some of it. It looks like a plug and holding in the pus. 

Are you giving the formula with a syringe small amounts into his beak? Can be very time consuming. Try the small balls as I suggested, but only if he drinks water by himself.

Droppings look ok. There's a bit of yellow to the urates, can be due to the food you are giving or from dehydration. Is he drinking by himself?


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Poor thing. That doesn't look like a pox growth. It's possible he scratched himself and this started an infection. Try to soften that hardened part a bit and gently try to remove some of it. It looks like a plug and holding in the pus.
> 
> Are you giving the formula with a syringe small amounts into his beak? Can be very time consuming. Try the small balls as I suggested, but only if he drinks water by himself.
> 
> Droppings look ok. There's a bit of yellow to the urates, can be due to the food you are giving or from dehydration. Is he drinking by himself?


I don’t think he’s drinking by himself unfortunately  not eating at all. Everything inside the beak is very swollen. I give the formula into the crop with a crop needle (the metal ones). I do it very carefully and I only chose it because a normal syringe wouldn’t fit because of the swelling. If I give it in the beak I’m worried he will breath it in because of the swelling as well. 

But yes I think what happened was that a pox „pimple“ fell off and after that the swelling appeared. Then it got worse and worse. But it just keeps spreading, now it’s under the beak and on the other side. I feel terrible for him and I’m worried he might lose part of the beak.

I talked to my vet and she recommended cooling it to reduce the swelling which I will try. 

She also said if it continues we have to talk about „quality of life“ a.k.a. euthanising him which I would never do unless a pigeon has no chance of survival and the pain is unbearable. 

however I think he’s quite okay and alert. Maybe he’s not great and the swelling is a problem, but i hope it will improve after a while.
Thank you for your help!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Amoxycillin will be a better option to treat the infection than baytril. I'm sure if you can remove the "plug" and gently press that soft swelling you will see some nasty stuff coming out. 

It's good you are able to crop feed him. Make the formula the consistency of tomato ketchup.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Amoxycillin will be a better option to treat the infection than baytril. I'm sure if you can remove the "plug" and gently press that soft swelling you will see some nasty stuff coming out.
> 
> It's good you are able to crop feed him. Make the formula the consistency of tomato ketchup.


Okay, I will try that. I use diaseptyl on the swelling outside but my vet said I can also use to clean inside. I will try to remove the hard part now...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Soften it a bit first with lukewarm water. If you notice any bleeding, rather stop.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Soften it a bit first with lukewarm water. If you notice any bleeding, rather stop.


I tried, but it seems like it's very painful for her and I couldn't remove it. However now the "border" is more visible, I assume if I continue this in the next days it will come off eventually. But then there is a hole in the beak? because the "plug" that you mentioned is where the infection started, now this part is very hard, the other swollen parts are rather soft. I'm only worried I'll make it worse by trying to remove it, he seemed very exhausted afterwards and it looked a bit more swollen than before 

Here is a video of how it looks now:Loom | Free Screen & Video Recording Software


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

No, rather leave as it is then. Keep on rinsing that part with saline lukewarm water and put some antibiotic cream on.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> No, rather leave as it is then. Keep on rinsing that part with saline lukewarm water and put some antibiotic cream on.


Okay! What antibiotic cream do you usually use? And is it safe around the beak / if the ingest it?

This morning I found some brown diarrhoea, I also found normal looking poop which is good, but the diarrhoea seems to be fresh. What could this mean?

Thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I use Betadine, but not for internal use. Just dab it in such a way he won't ingest it. Are you giving Baytril? Do you give probiotics as well?


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> I use Betadine, but not for internal use. Just dab it in such a way he won't ingest it. Are you giving Baytril? Do you give probiotics as well?


No I don’t give any probiotics. I started adding the vinegar though. Is there anything else I could get? Also is it okay to use Nadiclox 2% creme on the swelling outside the beak? It was recommended in the pharmacy in addditon to betadine. Thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm sure the cream will be ok, as long as he don't ingest it. Also make sure the apple cider vinegar is the natural unfiltered brand with the "mother".


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> I'm sure the cream will be ok, as long as he don't ingest it. Also make sure the apple cider vinegar is the natural unfiltered brand with the "mother".


Okay - I’m not sure they have this one here in Portugal but I will try to find an unfiltered one. He still doesn’t drink or eat, how much would you add in the syringe? Right now I feed him twice a day, each 15 ml… like one drop or 2 per feeding?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Surely health shops will stock the apple cider vinegar. Here by us one can buy in a supermarket. You can use the acv water as a base for his formula. Use for one full day twice a week. So add 5 ml acv to a litre of water and then use that water to mix his formula to a consistency of tomato ketchup. I doubt he will need additional water then. Try to feed him more formula. Give 20 ml 3 times a day.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

sinlia said:


> Okay - I’m not sure they have this one here in Portugal but I will try to find an unfiltered one. He still doesn’t drink or eat, how much would you add in the syringe? Right now I feed him twice a day, each 15 ml… like one drop or 2 per feeding?


Here unfiltered acv is usually available in places which sell organic products. 

Are there supermarkets like Carrefour, Auchan or Géant Casino ? If yes, give a look at their organic section, if it's like here you should find unfiltered acv (the one which looks cloudy) there. In the common oil/vinegar section they have only the filtered ones (which look very transparent).


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Okay


Marina B said:


> Surely health shops will stock the apple cider vinegar. Here by us one can buy in a supermarket. You can use the acv water as a base for his formula. Use for one full day twice a week. So add 5 ml acv to a litre of water and then use that water to mix his formula to a consistency of tomato ketchup. I doubt he will need additional water then. Try to feed him more formula. Give 20 ml 3 times a day.


i found it! Before I found him with difficulty breathing, I checked and there was a lot of transparent mucus, gel like, that blocked his throat and beak. I removed it and he seemed better after. What could that mean? Does is come from the infection in the beak? This morning I was so happy because it seemed like the swelling didn’t spread, at least to what I saw. And the edges and thinner swellings turned orange/ yellow instead of being red. Is that the healing process starting? Thanks!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Here unfiltered acv is usually available in places which sell organic products.
> 
> Are there supermarkets like Carrefour, Auchan or Géant Casino ? If yes, give a look at their organic section, if it's like here you should find unfiltered acv (the one which looks cloudy) there. In the common oil/vinegar section they have only the filtered ones (which look very transparent).


Yes I found it, thank you! It says unfiltered and 5% so it should be the right one


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Also here is a picture from the droppings. It now is diarrhoea ranging from orange brown to green color 😞


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Excess mucous in the throat can be a sign of canker. His droppjngs don't look good either. I'm posting a list of canker symptoms to look out for.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Excess mucous in the throat can be a sign of canker. His droppjngs don't look good either. I'm posting a list of canker symptoms to look out for.
> View attachment 102764


It is difficult to tell because of his swelling. He doesn't eat because of it. His beak is swollen and he has a lot of mucus. His beak is in pretty bad condition, but tbh besides that I'm surprised how "alert" and okay he is. The diarrhoea worries me and I'm wondering if it has to do with liver / kidneys. Compared to the dove with canker he is not like she was. He always has his eyes open, stands up etc.

However, I am worried about canker, if I would give him carnidazole, would that be damaging if he doesn't have canker? Since he's already getting baytril and meloxicam...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm not sure about that combination of meds. In the past I have used metronidazole and amoxycillin simultaneously with no side effects. Hopefully Colombina can advise. I know that Baytril is quite harsh on their systems. How long has he been on Baytril? Start with the apple cider vinegar asap and see if that makes a difference in the droppings.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

He’s been on it for almost 2 weeks. The diarrhoea started all of a sudden 2 days ago. I already started ACV today at lunch time and will give him his third meal tonight.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

I’m just wondering because he has been with me since the 23rd of July recovering from pox. He never showed any signs of canker. I tried to keep the dove and him separate always, I always used differnt syringes and disinfected hands etc, so how could he have canker? Or could he have had it the whole time?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I think you should stop the baytril. Two weeks is a long time. Surely this was only prescribed by the vet to prevent secondary infections while recovering from pox.

All pigeons carry the organism that causes canker. Healthy pigeons with a good immunity don't get affected by this. When the immunity drops and when under stress, the organisms starts multiplying and that's when a pigeon gets sick from canker. Your pigeon ticks both boxes. 

It's also possible he might have a yeast infection. Have you tried checking deep inside the throat with a flashlight? Yeast looks different than canker, more whitish in appearance. Giving antibiotics can make yeast worse.

Stop all meds and rather give the acv based formula for a couple of days. Can you get Nystatin for yeast? Nystatin is safe to give as this does not get absorbed into the body. Sometimes Nystatin gets prescribed with antibiotics to prevent yeast infections.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> I think you should stop the baytril. Two weeks is a long time. Surely this was only prescribed by the vet to prevent secondary infections while recovering from pox.
> 
> All pigeons carry the organism that causes canker. Healthy pigeons with a good immunity don't get affected by this. When the immunity drops and when under stress, the organisms starts multiplying and that's when a pigeon gets sick from canker. Your pigeon ticks both boxes.
> 
> ...


The vet said to give baytril until he is fully recovered. It seems like it didn’t do anything though, the swelling only got worse and worse so maybe stopping it makes sense. What about meloxicam? I can stop it all and see how he does in a couple of days. I will look into his throat now.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

sinlia said:


> It is difficult to tell because of his swelling. He doesn't eat because of it. His beak is swollen and he has a lot of mucus. His beak is in pretty bad condition, but tbh besides that I'm surprised how "alert" and okay he is. The diarrhoea worries me and I'm wondering if it has to do with liver / kidneys. Compared to the dove with canker he is not like she was. He always has his eyes open, stands up etc.
> 
> However, I am worried about canker, if I would give him carnidazole, would that be damaging if he doesn't have canker? Since he's already getting baytril and meloxicam...





Marina B said:


> I'm not sure about that combination of meds. In the past I have used metronidazole and amoxycillin simultaneously with no side effects. Hopefully Colombina can advise. I know that Baytril is quite harsh on their systems. How long has he been on Baytril? Start with the apple cider vinegar asap and see if that makes a difference in the droppings.


In the past I have used spartrix and doxycycline simultaneously with no side effects but never used spartrix and baytril simultaneously.

The spartrix directions for use (check the pic that I posted in your other thread) say "interactions with other meds and other things: unknown". But maybe simply they never did any study about that...

I checked the directions for use of metacam (meloxicam) and baytril. 
I attach pics but they are in French language, if you have them too check them in your language. 
Carnidazole is in the nitroimidazole class (I checked online) and they don't mention any interaction with it. 
All that said honestly I don't have a definite answer, I'm sorry. 

Canker could be originated even by stress, I mean the canker protozoan could multiply in case of stressful situations as Marina explained. I can't tell you if this is the case.

I would look for probiotics. Do you know if French products are available there? If yes, you could look for Vitaregul Francodex or Oceproven Virbac. They have the same composition but the first one is more convenient because it is for bigger amount of water. 

I'm going to re-read your whole thread.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> In the past I have used spartrix and doxycycline simultaneously with no side effects but never used spartrix and baytril simultaneously.
> 
> The spartrix directions for use (check the pic that I posted in your other thread) say "interactions with other meds and other things: unknown". But maybe simply they never did any study about that...
> 
> ...


Okay, I guess all of this is very stressful for him and his immune system is weakened anyways.

I just fed him and he didn't have much mucus anymore. It was only once that it was very bad, the rest of the day only a little bit.

Here is a video of his beak: Loom | Free Screen & Video Recording Software

I know it's not very well visible, sorry. I didn't see any white dots, I only found a bit of the mucus which had some white parts in it, it could be the food or pus. The white part on the left of his beak is pus from the infection. 

He doesn't seem lethargic or anything.

I can try to find the French products in the pharmacy, are they available without a prescription? I will be back home on Tuesday where I could also go to the vet, but at this point I'm a bit worried they won't be helpful in this case. Also the vet that has treated the pigeon won't be here this week. But I'm sure they can give me probiotics.

About stoping the baytril, because he still has this huge infection, won't it get worse when I stop it?

Thank you all for your help!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've never used Baytril, but from what I've read it's very harsh on their bodies. I always use an amoxycillin based meds as this is available in our pharmacies without prescription. The meloxicam is also a drug harsh on their system. I once tried to get from a vet, but he refused to give to me.

If this was a pigeon in my care, I would stop all meds now. Try to boost him with the apple cider vinegar and try to get the probiotics.

I will view the video a bit later, away from home right now.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

No, it's not needed a prescription, they are probiotics (both of them have the same composition). Here they are available in places like garden centers (the ones which sell animal products like Jardiland) or they are directly sold by vets. 






Our products - Laboratoire Francodex


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8.95? - Oceproven VIRBAC - Véto Products


OCEPROVEN VIRBAC is a food supplement to maintain the balance of the intestinal flora of the cage bird. Products-veto.com




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A bacterial infection could get worse in case you stop antibiotics when infection is still going on. If there is pus there is still infection.
I have never dealt with a situation similar to yours one. Only my brother dealt with pox but there was no a similar infection. 

I really don't know if that could be a good idea or not but last July/August I got an infection at my finger. I had yellow pus under the skin, it was hard and painful too. As the infected area started to increase in size I went to pharmacy. They gave me the product in the pic. It's a transcutaneous antiseptic solution. It can be used in two ways: local bath (the pharmacist suggested this method in my case) and wet dressings. 
I found a link in English language with a description of the product:










Hexomedine solution locale 45 ml Cooper


Buy Hexomedine solution locale 45 ml at the best price on your Pharmacie en ligne MonCoinSanté, shipping in 24/48H. Reference:




moncoinsante.com





The pharmacist told me that I would have needed an oral antibiotic in case the product didn't work. The solution worked great and if I remember correctly on day 2 the pus started to little by little go out from skin.
I was wondering if you could try that (wet dressing) on him (of course, not inside the beak). 
You could ask for an opinion to your vet. 

Baytril is a broad spectrum antibiotic but apparently you didn't see any improvement in two weeks (except for the beginning). I was wondering if you should change antibiotic. 
Here you can read info about antibiotic:



http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html



About amoxicillin (the one mentioned by Marina) they say:

"An excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. Often good against Salmonella, E. coli, Strep. & Staph. species of bacteria". 

Recently my mum got an infection in her mouth and the dentist gave her amoxicillin plus clavulanic acid.
Maybe you could talk to your vet about changing antibiotic?
I don't like giving antibiotics when they are not needed but in case of bacterial infection I fear that without antibiotics the problem could get worse. Honestly it's a big dilemma.. 

Also I want to say that years ago my vet suggested me to apply topically inside the beak a mouthwash called Eludril. The dentist prescribed that to my mum too 
I was wondering if that could help your bird. 

Two of our members dealt with terrible cases of pox, honestly I don't remember if there was any point in common with your case but if you have time you could give a look at the threads:










Baby Snuggles and her Pox!


Hi Everyone! My name is Joey - I'm British and live in Porcia, Northern Italy. Last week I found a fledgling pigeon really suffering with Pox and had been attacked by what I suspect was the neighborhood cats - she found shelter under my veranda and didn't move when I approached. On closer...




www.pigeons.biz













Sick pigeon


I've been seeing this pigeon for a couple of weeks around my area. I noticed from the start the fact he was always alone and he was disfigured by these growths around his beak. Today I noticed one of his wings is also drooping, and decided to take him with me - he wasn't running from me and I...




www.pigeons.biz





Meloxicam is a pain med, here vets usually prescribe it for birds too.
I have never seen side effects but I know that in a long term it could have side effects.









PetCoach - Ask a Vet Online 24/7


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When my beloved cat Kira needed a pain med but was a senior cat the vet decided to give me arnica instead of metacam.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> No, it's not needed a prescription, they are probiotics (both of them have the same composition). Here they are available in places like garden centers (the ones which sell animal products like Jardiland) or they are directly sold by vets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh thank you SO much for this detailed reply! I will read through everything.

I don't want to get excited too early, but I have the feeling it has improved. Since yesterday I didn't find thick mucus anymore and the swelling inside went down a bit, I noticed because it was way easier to syringe feed him. The swollen area starts to turn orange, I still don't know if that means healing but it doesn't seem to get worse and inside the beak it seemed to have dried up a bit.

I was extremely worried about the diarrhoea, it got so bad all of a sudden but it seemed to have improved, it's still not perfect droppings but I wouldn't even call it diarrhoea anymore. The ACV must have helped a lot.

This morning I didn't give baytril anymore, I'm a bit concerned now, but It really didn't help with the swelling and I'm still applying the antibiotic ointment which seemed to have helped a lot so far. since applying it it stopped growing more and made it turn orange and I just hope it's drying up.

However if things get worse again I will try the antiseptic dressing. 

Tomorrow I'm driving home, it's almost a 3 hour drive and I hope it won't stress him too much. In the afternoon I will go to the vet anyways so I will talk about changing antibiotics, unless things look really good tomorrow, then maybe it's okay to leave it.

I'm honestly just happy things seem to improve even a tiny bit, thanks to all your& Marina's help. I really thought he wouldn't make it because the swelling got worse and worse, he couldn't eat or drink anymore, then the diarrhoea. I felt so sad for him because he's so young and has been through so much already, he hasn't even learned how to coo properly.

Today I noticed that where the pox was previously little things popped up again, they look like clogged pores humans skin. I guess that's how pox starts? I removed them,I used a q tip and saline to rub on it and they fell out. But is that the pox coming back? or might it be old from the previous pox warts?

Thank you so much, I will keep you updated!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Ask the vet for an amoxycillin based meds. Either Betamox, synulox or clavmet. Dosage for an adult pigeon will be 40 mg twice a day. You don't have to give, for now just keep it in case things deteriorate again and the swelling starts up again. At least amoxycillin is not so harsh on the liver and you might need it again for future rescues. Comes in handy esp for birds caught by cats.

Glad to hear the droppings improved. Keep us updated plse.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Oh these are good news!!! I'm very very happy to hear that! 
Hopefully his body has started to win the battle against the infection!!!

Let us know what the vet will say tomorrow.
In all cases, having amoxicillin on hand would be a good idea.

Keep us updated!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Hey there! I wanted to ask for your opinion. I think the swelling has reduced, you can see everything is quite orange. I'm only worried about the hard pus piece in the beak. I'm also not sure but I noticed some smell, maybe it's from the skin rotting or so? 

Then the droppings, they are yellowish white liquid and a round light brown piece,I would say it's better than before because before it was all liquid? 

However today I noticed that he would sit with eye closed. I don't know if it's both, but it's definitely the one on the side of the swelling. 

He seems very alert when I get him, but when he's alone not so much. 

Also I'm a bit worried because I stopped the anti biotic, but it seems like it's improving, could the infection still get worse inside? Or is he just exhausted from the pain & healing? 

Thank you,

Sini


















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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The yellow urates can be from dehydration, liver problems or canker. Those white growths inside his beak: did he had this from the start? It's not part of the infection on the side of the beak? Is the crop emptying as usual or delayed?


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> The yellow urates can be from dehydration, liver problems or canker. Those white growths inside his beak: did he had this from the start? It's not part of the infection on the side of the beak? Is the crop emptying as usual or delayed?


The white growth started when the infection on the beak started but today I noticed a bit of a smell. Today I felt like he didn’t have enough droppings for the amount he ate. I’m not sure. But also he started to close the eye on the side of the swelling.
I’m concerned it’s canker, I talked with a friend of mine who also rescues a lot of pigeons and he recommend to start spantrix treatment so I gave him one pill a couple of hours ago. Since he’s off baytril and meloxiam I think it should be okay. And it sounds like it’s a rather safe medication. 
I also thought about the liver, in that case what would you recommend? I’ve used legalon for a pigeon with liver problems before.
thank you


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Milk thistle will also support the liver. I'm just worried he might have a yeast infection as well. Yeast inside the beak are more whitish in appearance where cankergrowths are more yellow. But sometimes it's difficult to dustinguish between the two. Can you get Nystatin for yeast? Safe to use. The vet should have subscribed this to be used with the baytril.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Milk thistle will also support the liver. I'm just worried he might have a yeast infection as well. Yeast inside the beak are more whitish in appearance where cankergrowths are more yellow. But sometimes it's difficult to dustinguish between the two. Can you get Nystatin for yeast? Safe to use. The vet should have subscribed this to be used with the baytril.


Yes, I will try to get it today. Do you think it’s okay that I started the spantrix treatment? It cannot make things a lot worse if he doesn’t have canker, right?
I’m a bit disappointed in my vet because they weren’t really helpful with everything. If I wouldn’t have started the antibiotic ointment I don’t know if it even would have stopped. And they didn’t recommend any of that. Telling me his body has to fight it himself is useless.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Keep him on the Spartrix, but try to get the Nystatin asap. Nystatin needs to be given twice a day on an empty crop. So then wait half an hour to an hour and then feed. Doesn't get absorbed into the body, but needs to get in contact with yeast to kill it. For the growths inside the beak you can use a earbud covered with Nystatin and then paint the Nystatin on the growths. Also then wait the recommended time before feeding him. You can give him 1 ml in the morning and 1 ml in the evening. Do for 10 days.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Keep him on the Spartrix, but try to get the Nystatin asap. Nystatin needs to be given twice a day on an empty crop. So then wait half an hour to an hour and then feed. Doesn't get absorbed into the body, but needs to get in contact with yeast to kill it. For the growths inside the beak you can use a earbud covered with Nystatin and then paint the Nystatin on the growths. Also then wait the recommended time before feeding him. You can give him 1 ml in the morning and 1 ml in the evening. Do for 10 days.


Okay. I called the vet but I'm not sure if they will give it to me. She said she will have to look at the file first and why I think he has a yeast infection. I will call back in an hour to see if she agrees.
I just got home and I found a lot of droppings that at least weren't only white/yellow - is it possible that the Spantrix has helped with the digestion already? Or would it be too fast?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've never used Spartrix, but surely one dosage will make a difference. Maybe you must email the vet the last photo where one can see the growths. Ask her opinion. Is she an avian vet?


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

She is an exotic vet, I think that includes avian. yes I will refer to that photo, I already sent it to them in the morning. Now that I read through the symptoms it definitely could be a yeast infection, I’m almost certain. It explains the mucus and slow emptying of crop and bad smell. Also because he’s been on meds so long. If she says no I will have another vet I can try.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

She is supposed to know these things. With pox the immunity is already low. Giving strong antibiotics like baytril will mess up the whole system and kill all the good bacteria as well. Continue with the apple cider vinegar, this will help for yeast and canker but won't cure it.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Yes, you're right. I just realised Nystatin is the same as mycostantin which I can get in the pharmacy? Are there any differences between mg or something? Or it's just all the same?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I think the dosage will be different. Will need to check online. Any response from the vet?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes, it's the same as Nystatin. Check the strength on the label. 1 ml should contain 100 000 units. A pigeon needs 30 000 units per 100 gr birdweight. So if your pigeon weigh 300 gr, then you can give 0.9 ml twice a day.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

The vet was very unhappy prescribing it without me coming in tomorrow and asked why I would think he would have that. I explained the symptoms and asked if there were any side effects or if it could make his condition worse if he doesn't have a yeast infection and her answer was "no" and that it's a very safe medication. So I'm not sure what the problem was really, she agreed to send me a prescription later but that it wouldn't fix his "condition" (which I know but having a yeast infection is still bad, isn't it?)

Unfortunately she forget to send me the prescription today but I'm pretty sure it should be available in the pharmacy, I will check first thing in the morning.

I've heard that sometimes they vomit when taking it, I'm a bit worried because of his beak and throat condition. But because his crop wasn't empty anyways I thought waiting until tomorrow morning might be a good idea, because I will also be able to watch him more. Do you have experience with Nystatin causing vomiting?

Unfortunately before I found him again with a lot of mucus blocking his breathing, I cleaned it and it was fine after, but it's worrying me, it can also happen while I'm away for a few hours and his airways will get blocked


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Don't worry, as I explained in my previous posts and as confirmed by your friends spartrix is very safe. It can be used even as a preventative treatment. 

Mycostatine is same thing as nystatin (check the pic).
If it's the one in liquid form 100.000 Ul/ml dosage is 30.000 units each 100 gr pigeon weight. So usually 1 ml for adult pigeon. I'm used to give it divided into 2 doses, I mean 0,5 ml morning plus 0,5 evening (total 1 ml on empty crop). 
Years ago one of my vet prescribed 1ml twice a day but according to my other vet, to what I read online and to members here on PT (give a look at the following old thread) the dose is normally 1 ml daily divided in 2 doses. 
Personally I have never seen vomiting issues. 









Is this canker?


Hi I've just found a pigeon sitting beneath the feeder in the garden, he has some growth's on either side of the mouth which are pale in colour, he's very skinny. Can anyone confirm if this looks like canker please? I've given him one Spartrix tablet. I've just learnt that this could be Candida?




www.pigeons.biz





Regarding liver, I suggest you to look for a product similar to the one in the pic. It is a plant-based supplement containing artichoke and other plants like goldenrod. Artichoke has many health benefits, among them it helps liver health and increases the production of bile, which helps remove harmful toxins from liver. Goldenrod has many benefits too, it's good even for kidney. 
Here it is available in agricultural supply stores. 

This is a good website about visible indicators of health in mouth/throat, try to give a look at it, there are a lot of helpful info. 









Visible Indicators of Health in the Head and Throat


Many of the factors that influence the health of our birds are hidden to the naked eye and it is only through veterinary examination that these are revealed. However, there are external signs that...



www.auspigeonco.com.au


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## Marthasloft (Dec 28, 2015)

sinlia said:


> Hello!
> 
> A pigeon with pox has been in my care for almost 6 weeks now. It seemed like the pox was healing, but maybe 3 weeks ago it started to develop a swelling around it's beak. he's been on Baytril for almost 2 weeks now, 0.05 ml twice a day and for a few days also meloxicam 0.1 once a day.
> the first couple of days on Baytril the swelling reduced, then it suddenly started to grow. now it started under the beak and on the other side and it#s going towards the head. The vet said there is nothing we can do because he has to fight it himself, I also give anima strath etc. Honestly today I'm not sure if he will eat so I might have to force feed him.
> ...


Try Ronsec or treatment for canker.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Don't worry, as I explained in my previous posts and as confirmed by your friends spartrix is very safe. It can be used even as a preventative treatment.
> 
> Mycostatine is same thing as nystatin (check the pic).
> If it's the one in liquid form 100.000 Ul/ml dosage is 30.000 units each 100 gr pigeon weight. So usually 1 ml for adult pigeon. I'm used to give it divided into 2 doses, I mean 0,5 ml morning plus 0,5 evening (total 1 ml on empty crop).
> ...


Thank you, this is so helpful! I will get the mycostatine first thing tomorrow morning and try it. So he then gets treated against canker & yeast infection, I hope one of it helps 
@Colombina, I saw you mention to apply betadine on the inside of the beak as well? Because my vet said I should only do it outside but there are some open spots on the inside so if I could apply it there it would help too. Do you dilute the cream? 
thank you!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marthasloft said:


> Try Ronsec or treatment for canker.


I started Spantrix treatment today


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've also read some older threads reg Nystatin. One of our members (not on here anymore - she has lots of experience reg pigeons) also mentioned that Baytril can cause yeast infections. A vet should always provide an anti-fungal when subscribing this meds.

Don't be alarmed if the urates become more yellowish when on Nystatin, that is normal.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Okay, I have it now. The pigeon was only 250 grams so the dose should be ~ 75000, should I make it 80000 which equals then 0.4 ml twice a day?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes, 0,4 ml twice a day is ok.

When I mentioned Betadine I meant the one in liquid form (solution 10% see the pic), not the cream.
One of my vet explained me that Betadine can be gently applied on canker/yeast growths using a q-tip. I think I posted the thread with all the info in your other thread. 









What to do if I *suspect* I have stopped canker...


Hi all. I have a bird which I thought might have canker. I gave her Ronsec for 10 days (i.e 5 tablets). Some symptoms disappeared or improved after about 5-7 days but for the rest of the treatment her condition did not change much so I stopped the treatment. It's been around 2 weeks since then...




www.pigeons.biz





Your bird has also pus piece inside the beak which means abscess. Abscess is usually caused by bacterial infection. Honestly I don't know if in a similar situation is good to apply Betadine so I would not do that.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes. You can even do 0.5 ml twice a day. One can't really overdose as this doesn't get absorbed into the body. Also "paint" those white growths inside the beak.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Yes, 0,4 ml twice a day is ok.
> 
> When I mentioned Betadine I meant the one in liquid form (solution 10% see the pic), not the cream.
> One of my vet explained me that Betadine can be gently applied on canker/yeast growths using a q-tip. I think I posted the thread with all the info in your other thread.
> ...


Ah, got it! Yes I read it there and also in other canker related threads you posted. Okay, I will wait and see what the spantrix and The nystatin do. This morning I was already a bit happier with the droppings, it seemed more and more solid. Thanks!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Yes. You can even do 0.5 ml twice a day. One can't really overdose as this doesn't get absorbed into the body. Also "paint" those white growths inside the beak.


Okay! I ended up giving 0.5 just to be sure. He seemed okay with it


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

0,4 is the dosage calculated on his weight (250 gr) but as I said normally the dose administered is 1 ml daily divided in 2 doses.
So 0,5 it's ok.

Glad to hear that his droppings are improving!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

I just wanted to update you! I just watched her eat some grains by herself for the first time 😍
the swelling has improved too and the white plug in the beak is slowly going away. I’m convinced it has to do with Pantrix. Also her breath doesn’t smell anymore.
The only bad thing is her droppings, it smells quite bad and I was wondering if she could have coccidiosis? 
she had it in July and got a one time dose, I don’t know what. She then had normal droppings. Is it possible it coms back or has never been fully removed and with her weak immune system it got worse? I will ask for a feces test today, but I think these are really good news. And I don’t know if this pigeon would be at such a good state compared to before without your help - so thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So glad to hear there's improvement. I checked my bottle of Coximed. (One tablet per pigeon). For a pigeon sick with coccidiosis, another treatment needs to be done 10 days after the first treatment. So it's possible he needs another treatment, but rather have the faeces checked to be sure.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update!
What a great news 😁!!!

Let us know something about the results of fecal test.

Are you looking for probiotics?


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Thanks for the update!
> What a great news 😁!!!
> 
> Let us know something about the results of fecal test.
> ...


So besides the ACV I purchased probiotics from the vet that I added to the food.It's from "Nature Digest".

I wanted to show you pictures of the beak, I think the plug will fall off soon, it's bleeding a little bit every time I feed him because I have to put some pressure on it to hold him, I try not to but it's impossible. 

Also his tongue is visible now, that#s when I realised how bad the swelling was or it was probably just covered in tricho stuff  

Yesterday I did the fecal test but I think it will take until Tuesday or Wednesday to get the results. it's okay, because I need to wait to finish the treatment anyways before treating coccidiosis.

Here are pictures of the beak, before treating with Spantrix & I think we're 4 days in now. Maybe this will help someone else to get the right diagnose or help a pigeon, since none of my vets even mentioned it could be trichomoniasis. I assume the pox wart covered the tricho swelling, it probably has always been there but only became visible when the pox fell off. It was wrong of me to assume it got infected because he scratched it....









I know this might not look like a lot, also it was difficult to show everything on pictures, but it's a huge improvement.

On the left you can see the swelling, it kept growing until his left under eye area was swollen and it affected the eye. His beak was totally swollen and the inside covered so much he couldn't eat or drink and his tongue wasn't visible. He had lots of mucus, I think also because of the pus and his inability to swallow.

On the right it's after giving 1 pill of Spantrix a day - the swelling is drying up, but the most important part is that all the stuff on the inside of his beak is going away. No mucus anymore. His tongue is visible again, he even tried to eat grains by himself which is difficult and sometimes he can't swallow them. on the top right picture you can see that the plug is about to fall off, there is a small bleeding edge and I hope it will fall off naturally and he won't scratch it off because it will bleed  I don't know how his beak will look or if there is a way to stich the are so it won't have a hole in the side,
but for now I'm extremely happy with the improvement, for the first time I think he will survive this  

For me it seems like maybe not all vets are super educated about pigeons and their diseases or how they can show up, without trying to undermine their medical knowledge of course. I think it's always important to seek medical advice in cases like this, but with pigeons I've noticed that often non-medical pigeon experts who maybe have worked with tons of rescues are more able to identify a disease and find the right treatment. 

That's why a forum like this is so amazing and helpful, without it I wouldn't have started the spantrix treatment  thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Well done! Amazing how positive results can just brighten up your day!


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## deeja (7 mo ago)

hi im really sorry to see your pigeon suffer like this.My dove fell inti hot boiling water.Her claws were all blistered with blood coming out of it.I treated her by putting pyodine of her claws through this method.I dont know if it works for your pigeon but do ask Marina B if it is good for her. It is not for internal use and it do keep the bacteria and infection away.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

sinlia said:


> So besides the ACV I purchased probiotics from the vet that I added to the food.It's from "Nature Digest".
> 
> I wanted to show you pictures of the beak, I think the plug will fall off soon, it's bleeding a little bit every time I feed him because I have to put some pressure on it to hold him, I try not to but it's impossible.
> 
> ...


I'm soo happy to see his improvements 😊!!! 
Thanks for sharing pics and info, your experience will surely be a great help for all of us!

You're doing a fantastic job!

What you said about vets is so true. 
Keep us updated about results of test and progress!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

I'm still waiting for the results, the vet said they are having a huge delay because people are on vacation... But yesterday she said I should have them by today.

The vet was also very happy with the beak, she said it might heal well without there being a big hole and she will hopefully be able to live a normal life / eat by herself. If that's the case she will go to a sancuary  

She also gained more than 30 grams, which is amazing considering she couldn't eat or drink by herself:

About the Spantrix treatment, should I do the full treatment for 10 days? I'm not sure on what day I am, I will have to double check. But because it was quite severe, should I do it longer? Thank you!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update! Wow! These are great news!!!

I have never done spartrix treatment longer than 10 consecutive days. Have you checked on what day you are?
Canker growths are still there?

The sanctuary is a serious place?


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Thanks for the update! Wow! These are great news!!!
> 
> I have never done spartrix treatment longer than 10 consecutive days. Have you checked on what day you are?
> Canker growths are still there?
> ...


Hey there! The results came back and he doesn't seem to have parasites. He's eating by himself now and since then his faces has improved a lot, I would say they are normal. The smell has also improved. Maybe it was a combination of giving the Harrison mixture, medication & stress? 

About thespantrix treatment I think I started on the 7th, so we should have reached 10 days now.His beak is still healing and I think it will still take some weeks, but I can still see some white stuff in the beak. I am not sure if it is healing tissue or part of the canker, would you recommend to stop the treatment or continue?

Thank you!!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry for the late reply but I'm having bad days and big problems. One of my pigeons has a serious issue. 

Anyway, thanks for the update, I'm very glad to hear about the improvements!

About the white stuff in the beak, I should see them... I know that it's too late for an answer about spartrix but just to be sure I would give it another couple of days (spartrix is very safe). At the end of all the medications treatment remember to give him probiotics and a liver supplement (if I remember well you have both of them).

Keep us updated!


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Sorry for the late reply but I'm having bad days and big problems. One of my pigeons has a serious issue.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the update, I'm very glad to hear about the improvements!
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry to hear that  I hope the pigeon is better?

here are pictures.I'm mostly concerned about the white stuff in the back.... 

A friend of mine recommended switching to metronidazole - what do you think?

Thanks


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you referring to the yellow piece? Looks like that is part of that infected mass. I've heard Spartrix is better than metro, and you've finished the whole course. I won't give any meds now, rather just keep an eye on it for now.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Are you referring to the yellow piece? Looks like that is part of that infected mass. I've heard Spartrix is better than metro, and you've finished the whole course. I won't give any meds now, rather just keep an eye on it for now.


If it grows bigger after stopping spnatrix would it still be possible to use metro? because I know once you stopped spantrix you cannot start again? thank you!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes I suppose you can.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for your kind words and for asking about my pigeon Aurora. 
Last week I felt fluid inside her abdomen... I immediately went to one of my vets, he said probably it's a tumor or hepatitis.... I felt devastated... Yesterday I consulted the second vet, she did an x-ray and didn't find any tumor, eggs... Liver appears normal. Nothing looks wrong... But there is fluid... She suspects a peritonitis related to reproductive organs issues (Aurora stopped egg laying really early, she is born in 2017 and stopped in 2018 or 2019). We have started an antibiotic treatment plus anti-inflammatory.
I'm so scared and worried because even peritonitis is a very very serious issue...I don't want to lose her... 

To answer your questions, I agree with Marina, for the moment I would keep an eye on him. 

From what I read it is possible to switch to different canker meds in case of stubborn canker. 

Keep us updated.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

I also have updates in this case, this morning the "plug" finally fell off. It got very loose while I was cleaning it, then I tried to remove it very gently. it was only slightly bleeding at one spot because 90% off it was dead tissue and even connected anymore. Now he has a hole and the beak is uneven. He seems okay, I noticed he was eating grains but I'm not sure if it worked. I will watch him today.

I've heard of cases like this and that they will learn how to eat eventually, maybe it will take some time. What do you think? I was hoping he could go to a sanctuary but I'm not sure now, I guess it depends on if he can figure out the eating part.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He will learn to eat by himself when the wound has healed completely. If he has a problem eating now, then handfeed for a couple of days.


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## sinlia (4 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Thanks for your kind words and for asking about my pigeon Aurora.
> Last week I felt fluid inside her abdomen... I immediately went to one of my vets, he said probably it's a tumor or hepatitis.... I felt devastated... Yesterday I consulted the second vet, she did an x-ray and didn't find any tumor, eggs... Liver appears normal. Nothing looks wrong... But there is fluid... She suspects a peritonitis related to reproductive organs issues (Aurora stopped egg laying really early, she is born in 2017 and stopped in 2018 or 2019). We have started an antibiotic treatment plus anti-inflammatory.
> I'm so scared and worried because even peritonitis is a very very serious issue...I don't want to lose her...
> 
> ...


Oh I'm so sorry! That sounds really terrible and I really understand how worried you must be now. I hope she will get better with the medication. Keep me updated!

Regarding the pigeon I fed him some grains by hand and will see how he does in the next days, but he's so strong and has survived all this so he will figure this out, too  thank you for all your help!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

sinlia said:


> Oh I'm so sorry! That sounds really terrible and I really understand how worried you must be now. I hope she will get better with the medication. Keep me updated!
> 
> Regarding the pigeon I fed him some grains by hand and will see how he does in the next days, but he's so strong and has survived all this so he will figure this out, too  thank you for all your help!


Thanks so much for your support! I'm so scared and worried... I feel so nervous and anxious.. 
Checking her abdomen for fluid frightens me a lot...I'm also very worried about the antibiotic dose given by the vet....I fear it's too high... 
Anyway, I will keep you updated! Thanks so much!

I'm very glad to see that the "plug" finally fell off! I'm sure that he will learn to eat on his own. He is a brave warrior 😊!
My broken wing pigeon Apple also has broken beak. I know that it's a different situation but she is able to eat on her own. 
Pigeons are very tough. 

In the bad case you could adopt him 😁.

Keep us updated!


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