# Furnishing the Loft



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

We found a company that will customize their stock outbuildings. Woohoo!
http://www.storageshedspa.com/index.php
They will also do total custom builds... but the gambrel barn should work; I get my loft and Greg gets his yard barn, all in one building.

If any "red flags" turn up, or if I've forgotten something, let me know!
We'll be placing the order on Saturday (borough granted permit this morning - they only allow one outbuilding per residence, so it has to do double duty).

Here's what we have in mind:

First pic is the basic barn, entry on short end. There's a "loft" shelf across the end opposite the doors (nominal 5 x 10), and we're having them drop a wall where the shelf ends, which will be the "back" wall of the coop. Entry door to coop within barn. We will make this "seal" very well, to keep dust, etc. out of the rest of the barn, and other nuisances out of the coop.

We plan to use 6x6 "runners" instead of the usual 4x4; is that enough height?

The "front" wall of the coop will have a "concession stand" style opening cut into it, about 62" wide and 36" high, leading to the aviary, and there will be a louvred window 18" x 23" on each side wall of the coop, near the corners.

Advice on wall base & ceiling vent placement is most welcome!

I'm planning for several floor level vents along the walls, but I'm not sure what the best placement would be. There are 3 outside walls available; I'm thinking the "side" walls may be the best place for them. There will also be a ceiling vent that will be ducted to a turbine (unless it won't be needed... thoughts?)
Since the coop ceiling is the barn's "loft" floor, the turbine placement would interrupt that space least if it is at the end of the building, but the ceiling vent in the coop should probably be farther back from the aviary, shouldn't it? (How far?)

I'm having some difficulty convincing Greg that vents need to be open all the time, yes, even in the middle of winter... though the aviary "window" will get frosted translucent panels that almost close (leaving a "bird-wingspan" of access to the aviary) to keep the winter wind from howling through the coop, and still let in light.

Since there's a limit to pix in a post, interior plans will be in next post...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

OK, here's my plans for interior of the coop...

Floor plan shows placement of side and aviary windows.
Aviary window starts 36" above floor of coop, and is 36" high and ~62" wide (exact measurement depends on how much finishing takes from the window).
Max aviary extension beyond wall will be 30" since that's about how far I can reach if I lean out to catch a pigeon.  
The coop door is at lower left of the plan sketch, and will open out into storage area, rather than into the coop. I'm thinking a "high" threshold will help keep poop, floor dressing, etc. in the coop.
The blue boxes at the corners are shelves for drinkers (electricity for drinker heat plates will be available), and grit pots on the floor under the shelves (they are smaller, so should not get wet if there are drips).

Green lines on sketches indicate floor space lost to wall studs...
Four columns of 5 nest boxes 15d x 20w x 14h inches. 
The pigeons are prisoner pairs (pets), but will not be raising young (I hope; I'm stocked up with dummy eggs) so I think that will be big enough for a bowl and some space to loaf. 

I want to add some individual perches, but I'm not sure where to put them. 
And I know I need some wall vents at floor level, and possibly a ceiling vent, and I'm not sure where to put those either.

Please advise!


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Vertical perches would have to go on left and right walls, I guess. Either that, or over the waterer shelves. Not much else to work with. Question- Does the aviary window need to be that wide? If you could cut that down, it would open up more wall space for perches, away from the door.

Go to Home Depot (if you have one nearby) on a sunny day. Walk around the sheds they have and feel the differences in heat build up with the different vent arrangements. It is amazing... If I were to have a shed, it would certainly have a roof turbine set-up. They flow (exhaust) a lot of air in hot weather.

You'll get pigeon dust over everything in that shed. Just sayin'... I understand the need for combining. Floor vents? Where you can, I guess... Might depend on what direction the prevailing winds blow. I would assume you would want and outside wall, away from prevailing winds... This will allow fresh air to circulate, but not have drafts in cold weather. I would assume (others correct me, please) that you are looking for "passive" ventilation. A vent on the wall into the rest of the storage area might just vent already heated air into the loft.

Good luck!

Don


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I want the aviary window to be wide for 2 reasons -- 

For light, since the coop ceiling is not open to the actual roof, there's no opportunity for skylight. That also means we'll have to make a duct for a roof turbine from a ceiling vent in the coop to the roof opening. I'm hoping to get the company building the shed to make the opening for the turbine, and if I get real lucky, install it too.

Also, since these pigeons are all prisoners, I want the aviary/fly-pen as generous as possible, but still want to be able to reach all the way in, for clean up or to catch a pigeon (I hate having to use an implement to chase them inside). 

We're planning to paint & caulk the "shed" side of the wall & ceiling between the storage area and the coop section, and use weatherstripping & sweeps on the interior door to reduce the dust. 
Thinking out loud... would making the door open "in" to the coop, instead of "out" into the storage area help keep dust inside the coop part?

The coop will be in the "wind shadow" of the house most of the time, and a roof turbine "should" draw air from any/all floor level vents (plus the windows, if open, & aviary), shouldn't it? Are there any good reasons not to have low vents opposing each other? I'm not planning on vents under the aviary, to avoid "fallout."


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## blackknight01 (Feb 20, 2010)

so when are you gonna start doing this project?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

We will be placing the order for the building tomorrow (would have done yesterday, but one of my cats needed to see the vet, and that took priority). It should be delivered by the last week of August. We will probably begin building the nest boxes ahead, if we get a chance, depending on how work schedules go.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Building arrived last week, pics are in my other thread. 

It's a good thing we didn't build anything ahead; the interior door is far enough from the outside wall that I can put box perches along the side wall in the loft, and a cupboard behind the door in the storage area, but the nest boxes will have to be narrower. There will be room for a bowl and loafing/roosting space in each (they will not need 2 bowls, since they will not be raising young). 

Next big challenge is to find some 1/2" x 1" plastic-coated hardware cloth for the aviary floor. 
The big box stores don't have it, and the employees either glaze over when asked, or give us "The Look."


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why are you using plastic coated wire for the floor?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Aside from expense, is there a good reason not to use it? 
Or is there something that's even better? 

It's what Lou had as floor in most of his aviaries, and seems heavier/stronger than the other stuff I've seen at the big box stores. 
Also doesn't get ratty looking from droppings & weathering (most of the droppings seem to slide right through)... and easy to scrub if/when necessary. 

The sides & top of the aviary are going to be 1/2" square hardware cloth (it's stronger than the 1/4" I've seen), and probably will also be lined with fine screen to exclude most flying bugs.

Am I way off track?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> *Aside from expense, is there a good reason not to use it? *
> Or is there something that's even better?
> 
> It's what Lou had as floor in most of his aviaries, and seems heavier/stronger than the other stuff I've seen at the big box stores.
> ...


No, not at all. I was just wondering. You do know that rodents and snakes can get in holes that size though?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> No, not at all. I was just wondering. You do know that rodents and snakes can get in holes that size though?


Yes, sometimes they seem to be able to make themselves flat like an envelope...  
I haven't seen any varmints, except rabbits, groundhogs, and once in a while a chipmunk, all year at Lou's loft, but possibly the mice are more interested in his compost heap (easy access to discarded seed) than the lofts, though we trapped the occasional mouse in the outer loft hallways, never found evidence of any in the compartments with the birds. 

Up at my house, there's a lot less shelter for random critters, though we do have a few rabbit burrows. I've never seen a snake in the neighborhood at all. 

The aviary will be about 42" off the ground, and Lou's are similar heights. 
This 1 x 1/2 is just for the aviary bottom/floor; the top and sides will be 1/2 x 1/2. I was thinking the 1 x 1/2 would be both stronger against hard-core predators as well as letting more of the droppings fall through, instead of getting tracked around. I don't think the poops would fall through the 1/2 x 1/2 anywhere near as easily... if they do, I could reconsider this and save some time, trouble, and money (have yet to find source for the plastic-coated hardware cloth)... and increase security from small invaders.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

These places sell it, but then there's the shipping.
Sometimes you can call a company and see where it is sold in your area.

vinyl coated welded wire 
http://www.wireclothman.com/shop.php?cPath=33&gclid=CKuEk-PSh6QCFcNH5god0jmI-A

PVC Coated Galvanized Hardware Cloth
http://www.hardwarecloth.org/wire_cloth/pvc_coated_galvanized_hardware_cloth.html

Plastic Coated Hardware Cloth
http://www.hardwarecloth.org/wire_cloth/colors_available_for_plastic_coated_hardware_cloth.html


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2010)

all I will add to this is to keep it as simple and easy to clean as possible , the more complicated you make it the harder to clean it becomes  if you look thru the Lovebirds loft pictures on her sight you should a get a pretty good idea of how little you need to have a successful and happy loft  http://lovebirdsloft.homestead.com/page1.html


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, that's one nice loft.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

@Jay3 - thanks for the links! I found some 1/2" square PVC coated at Busy Beaver, one of the smaller home improvement stores here, and I'm considering that for the whole aviary. It doesn't seem awfully expensive, all things considered. 

@Lokotaloft - I have been looking longingly at Renée's widowhood nest boxes (the ones that are just dowels in front of half the opening) for a while... but I would probably make hinged fronts like the ones in her breeding loft. I noticed that the whole front opens when I saw her video of Scooter and another bird fighting in one of the boxes, and she opened the whole front to break it up


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad you were able to find it. 
Yes you can make the nest boxes open on hinges.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Among our stash of "we'll use this for something, someday" stuff, I found some shelving that's particle board covered with matte-finish formica (or one of those similar things).

I'm thinking about using it for the horizontals in the nest boxes, since I don't expect droppings to stick or sink in like they do on plain wood. Is there any reason not to use it? 

I'm also thinking about using dividers like the ones in the pic for the fronts -- if I can find the little brackets for them. Kay will let me have these (they're what I'm using where the birds are now) but the brackets are glued on, so I'd need to replace them. Or, possibly space the shelves less tall than these, and drill "cups" in the woodwork to retain the dividers. Would that be "not high enough" for the pij to be comfortable, or would it be OK?
I could put these dividers through the dishwasher to clean them, once I knock the "big pieces" of schmutz off... 









I'm still thinking about finishing the floor with linseed oil instead of trying to paint it with something, but if there's a good reason to use some kind of paint, somebody please tell me about it.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

*Finally, Pigeons in the Palace!*

We finally got the loft finished and moved the birds from Lou's to their new home late in April, but I waited to post until I had some pix to go with it... 
Here's a pic of the end with aviary to start:









Entrance to the loft is captive to the main building space. And, since the system says I'm just about out of attachment space, here's a link to the album off-site (tried to put some pix into the one here but something strange happened...)

https://picasaweb.google.com/106118046808964259100/Loft?authkey=Gv1sRgCKOws4j_8Ni6fw#


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Looks Great!!! Congrats!!!


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## Sunne (Apr 23, 2010)

Something different looks great


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That does look nice! Great job!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hadn't noticed the link before, so just checked out the pics. It's really nice, except I don't think the screening on the aviary would be safe from a raccoon or something who wanted to tear through. And screening blocks out the UV rays from the sun that they need. I have read that both window glass and screening blocks it out. They need it for vitamin D.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

The aviary screen is tougher than it looks; it is strong enough for a lightweight adult to walk on. It is at a similar height to its placement on Lou's breeding loft, where it served many years without any break-ins. We're in a fairly close suburb (<5 yards from the neighbors' houses) and there's really not any raccoon-friendly habitat nearby. We get rabbits and the occasional gopher, though. 

I don't understand how the screen can completely block UV; UV wavelengths are a lot shorter (they're on the short end of visible light) than the grid of the screen. The aviary faces almost perfectly due south, and is only in the shadow in late afternoon, so they are getting max potential sun.


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## birdkeeper (Jun 24, 2009)

That loft looks really nice and clean...great job!!! Are you planning on putting some kind of trap door and where are you placing it?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks Marvin; 

I scrape & brush out the whole loft daily, and it's only been occupied for a few months. 
The shelves of the nest boxes can slide out for intensive cleaning and the surfaces are a formica type veneer that can be scrubbed.

There cannot be a trap; these pigeons have to be prisoners. 
That is one of the reasons they have a pretty big aviary. 

I got most of them from a neighbor who had a huge loft and was very active in a racing club. Some of them were birds he raced (with some success; I have seen their racing records online, but don't have their diplomas), others he had acquired as breeding stock, and the youngest 9 of them were oops-babies. Three of those are yearlings now, and the other 6 are two years old. I still need to get hens for my last two bachelor cockbirds, but they aren't really causing any trouble at the moment.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> The aviary screen is tougher than it looks; it is strong enough for a lightweight adult to walk on. It is at a similar height to its placement on Lou's breeding loft, where it served many years without any break-ins. We're in a fairly close suburb (<5 yards from the neighbors' houses) and there's really not any raccoon-friendly habitat nearby. We get rabbits and the occasional gopher, though.
> 
> I don't understand how the screen can completely block UV; UV wavelengths are a lot shorter (they're on the short end of visible light) than the grid of the screen. The aviary faces almost perfectly due south, and is only in the shadow in late afternoon, so they are getting max potential sun.




I think your loft looks great, I really do. You have done a wonderful job on it. I only mentioned the screening as I have read so many times how it cuts down on the UV light the the birds need to process calcium, and actually for many other bodily functions. So here is just some info. on it. This is why so many people use the UV lights on indoor birds who do not get outside daily for sunshine. 

*Glass windows filter out up to 90% of the beneficial UV spectrum unless that glass was made pre 1939. Aluminum screening used can filter out 30% or more UV light. High-grade acrylic (cages) filters out less than 5% of the UV light.

http://birdsupplysales.ashopcart.com/catalogue.php?exp=28|55|67|58|&cat=63&shop=1
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
The health benefits are many. As 90% of the sun’s beneficial near ultraviolet rays are filtered out through modern window glass (even aluminum screening will filter out 30% or more),
http://www.birdtricks.com/blog/why-proper-lighting-is-important-for-our-indoor-birds/

If they got out to fly often, then it probably wouldn't matter as much, but I think you said they were going to be prisoners. Just wanted to make you aware of it.


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## Goingatitagain (Feb 5, 2011)

Beautiful loft Robin and great pictures of your birds. 

Enjoy your babies !!


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## stowellka (Jun 12, 2010)

allright help me out people,
if your birds aren't going to be let out shouldn't the aviary be the size of.... say a dog kennel(4x8) i think that loft looks awesome,(if you could add a 6'x8'x6' aviary?)but if your not going to let them free fly , shouldn't they still be able to stretch a little and hang out in the weather,i'm a newbie but i thought they would be in an aviary most the day (figured birds like to be outside )and just go in the loft at night, no?
i could be completly wrong but i emphasized the aviary part of my small pen because i wasn't planning on letting them free fly.
i only have two birds though,but they love to bask in the sun,hang out on the ground(sand) and just be birds 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=1729&pictureid=18195


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

stowellka said:


> allright help me out people,
> if your birds aren't going to be let out shouldn't the aviary be the size of.... say a dog kennel(4x8) i think that loft looks awesome,(if you could add a 6'x8'x6' aviary?)but if your not going to let them free fly , shouldn't they still be able to stretch a little and hang out in the weather,i'm a newbie but i thought they would be in an aviary most the day (figured birds like to be outside )and just go in the loft at night, no?
> i could be completly wrong but i emphasized the aviary part of my small pen because i wasn't planning on letting them free fly.
> i only have two birds though,but they love to bask in the sun,hang out on the ground(sand) and just be birds
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=1729&pictureid=18195




Well, of course the bigger the aviary, the better. My birds only have a 4X6X6 high, because that is the space I had. I would actually like a walk in large maybe 10X12 size, but didn't have the room. Lots of my nutty birds are couch potatoes, and are just as happy staying in the loft for most of the time. My loft has large windows for air and sunlight, so it is by no means dark in there. But they do go out also. But when they go out, they do so to bathe or perch somewhere in the sunshine and stretch out. Not like they really need it to be huge. But they do need to be able to get the direct sunlight for their health and well being. I saw your picture, and the aviary is nice and roomy, but I would want a larger loft for them to go into, and they aren't just in there at night to sleep. And by the formula that has been developed, each bird should have 2 square feet of floor space to have enough room. Yours is kinda like a nest box in an aviary. In bad weather they don't want to be outside. They do like to be able to enjoy a good rain storm though, as they seem to like to shower.

Guess it depends on how many birds you have. How many do you keep in there?


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## stowellka (Jun 12, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Well, of course the bigger the aviary, the better. My birds only have a 4X6X6 high, because that is the space I had. I would actually like a walk in large maybe 10X12 size, but didn't have the room. Lots of my nutty birds are couch potatoes, and are just as happy staying in the loft for most of the time. My loft has large windows for air and sunlight, so it is by no means dark in there. But they do go out also. But when they go out, they do so to bathe or perch somewhere in the sunshine and stretch out. Not like they really need it to be huge. But they do need to be able to get the direct sunlight for their health and well being. I saw your picture, and the aviary is nice and roomy, but I would want a larger loft for them to go into, and they aren't just in there at night to sleep. And by the formula that has been developed, each bird should have 2 square feet of floor space to have enough room. Yours is kinda like a nest box in an aviary. In bad weather they don't want to be outside. They do like to be able to enjoy a good rain storm though, as they seem to like to shower.
> 
> Guess it depends on how many birds you have. How many do you keep in there?


 i'm still having problems w/ this?
if i had say a 10'x8' space i think i would want to dedicate more area for the aviary than the indoor area,(for non free flight birds) 
your right my indoor space is basically for sleeping and has a double decker nest box
to ans. your ques. two birds,also i'm in socal so no freezing weather here 









http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=1729&pictureid=18492
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=1729&pictureid=18491


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

my flight pen is going to be 8L x 10W x 6H and my birds are still gonna be free flyers when i can.  i agee if they are prisoners then they should have a big enough place to stretch their wings and excersie...but the loft you built is very nice wish i could aford something like


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

stowellka said:


> i'm still having problems w/ this?
> if i had say a 10'x8' space i think i would want to dedicate more area for the aviary than the indoor area,(for non free flight birds)
> your right my indoor space is basically for sleeping and has a double decker nest box
> to ans. your ques. two birds,also i'm in socal so no freezing weather here
> ...




Oh my goodness! What a cute pair they are. Do they spend a lot of time outside? Actually, it's a nice set up. Thanks for sharing.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> I only mentioned the screening as I have read so many times how it cuts down on the UV light the the birds need to process calcium, and actually for many other bodily functions. So here is just some info. on it. This is why so many people use the UV lights on indoor birds who do not get outside daily for sunshine.
> 
> *Glass windows filter out up to 90% of the beneficial UV spectrum unless that glass was made pre 1939. Aluminum screening used can filter out 30% or more UV light. High-grade acrylic (cages) filters out less than 5% of the UV light.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links, Jay3. Very interesting info on the one site about UVA enabling birds to identify food and recognize one another and hazards... 

Something I could do is change the top screens to acrylic panels (assuming they are affordable, that I can get the right size & they are strong enough to be the "roof" -- we can get substantial snow & ice here -- is the acrylic they're talking about the same as plexiglass? That is rather dear in this area, except the thin sheets that would not be suitable because they break easily)... but:

The aviary is in full sun from about an hour past Sunrise through about 2-4pm, even in winter. 
That's something like 5.5 to 10 hours a day of sunlight (cloudy days notwithstanding...)

How much time in direct sunlight do pigeons need daily for their Vit-D & Calcium processing? 
Some of them don't even seem to want to sit in the aviary; they prefer the perches inside the loft, or even the front edges of their nest boxes for loafing about all day. 
I don't think they are _avoiding_ the aviary (all not on eggs, and some who are, come out for a bath)

Would they need more than the 5.5 (min. winter) available hours at 70%? (assuming the steel screening similarly attenuates the UV as aluminum in the example). There will be power in the loft, and I can use FS tubes if needed.

My perspective may be conditioned by that fact that I'm good for about 10 or 15 minutes in the sun before I burn, so it's not easy to think of needing hours in the sun...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes plexiglass is the same thing. We get lots of snow here too. I have an angled roof that I put over my aviary, which is just framed, covered with the 1/2 inch hardware cloth, and then plastic sheeting over that. Plastic that comes on a roll, the heaviest I could get, and it holds up fine in the snow. The plastic does break down over time with the sun and weather, but it lasts for a couple of years. Even if you have to replace it yearly, it's no big deal. If it is angled, a lot of the snow slides off with melting. If not, then it's easy enough to push off. The wood frame and hardware cloth make it sturdy. You could put plexiglass over that. That should give them enough sun. A lot of mine are couch potatoes too, but they know when to get out in the sun. They should have the option when they want to.


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