# is this red saddle definitely male?



## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

I know red normally can be sex linked gene, when they pass from mother side

I have a red saddle female pair up with dark grey saddle male, all the red saddle chicks from them turn out to be male, while all the black saddle chicks are all female.

although I call these young hen as black saddle, I can tell they have a shade of red under the black, thus more like kite saddle.

recently I paired up one of these kite saddle hens with a yellow saddle cock, their chicks normally are yellow saddle, kite saddle like their parents.

however, one of their new chicks turn out to be a red saddle.... thus I wonder, it must get the red from the grand mother, thus this chick should be a male as well???


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

dingweding said:


> I know red normally can be sex linked gene, when they pass from mother side
> 
> I have a red saddle female pair up with dark grey saddle male, all the red saddle chicks from them turn out to be male, while all the black saddle chicks are all female.
> 
> ...


This is going to be a long one.........

find a genetic calculator online. It will become your bible

red is a variable term - you'd really need to put up some pics otherwise it is really all conjecture

I don't know saddles genetics specifically so I stand to be corrected

Pics I've seen of saddles all look like recessive red to me. But those are definitely not sex linked.

Red being sex linked refers to base colour only. ie *Ash red*

*Ash Red hen*

In that case yes, ash red hen + blue cock = all blue based babies will be hens, all red based babies will be cocks.

Now
for the next generation
your hen from the above pair + a yellow cock
IF by yellow cock you mean *dilute ash red* ie cream:

If the cock was pure ash red then you would not be getting any blacks.
So you're cock would have to be split for blue
In that case you can get:

Black cocks
Dun hens (no non dilute females as the cock is carrying dilute)
Red cocks
Cream hens

Basically with an ash yellow cock split for blue mated to a black hen; ALL intense babies (red and black) are cocks, ALL dilute babies (yellow and dun) are hens.

*Recessive red hen*

not straight forward to figure out as recessive red hides the base colour so she might be ash red UNDER the recessive red  just to make our lives more complicated

But we can try figure it out anyway

IF you hen is recessive red (2 doses because she shows) over a black bird

For you to have ANY red babies in this case, the cock also has to carry rec red.
Therefore you have a rec red hen (on black) + blue cock (carrying 1 dose rec red)=

Blue hen
red hen
blue cock
red cock

I suspect rec red is what you have because of the 'kiting' you see with your black hens

All babies will CARRY rec red - so even your black hens will carry rec red

A black hen (carrying rec red) paired with a yellow cock
Again - what yellow? Rec yellow? (dilute rec red?)

black hen (+rec red) + rec yellow cock (on blue?)=

dun hens
yellow hens
red cocks
black cocks

ie ALL intense babies are male, ALL dilute babies are female

*Regardless of what specific genes they carry the following facts will remain:

The red of your latest baby = the father is also red, simply diluted to yellow

Yellow (whether ash red or rec red based) means the cock carries 2 doses of dilute since it shows as dilute. That means it will ALWAYS pass on 1 dose of dilute to ALL of its offspring. Cocks need 2 doses to show as dilute. But hens only need one (only can have one) Therefore ALL hens from this cock will be DILUTE (dun or yellow).
Therefore if you have any intense colour babies they are all cocks regardless of if they are black or red*


DISCLAIMER: I have purposely been ignoring other modifiers such as spread because your main concern now is colour and if they are sex linked. Spread adds a whole other level. So read blue and black interchangeably. 
Also I'm not sure what you mean by dark grey cock - I assumed it was a blue check cock (if it is a dun cock then it gets further complicated - but I don't think he is because your hens in the first batch would not have come out black but dun also)


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you so much to get back to me, here is a video with the birds ,possibly better to tell if you can see them

Grandpa : 

The big cock bird at the left bottom corner from time 0:20 to 0:27, his wing color is not black, more dark brownish. maybe should be called dun?

Grandma:

the over marked red saddle walk out the door at time 0:12, at time 0:15 she is at the right bottom of the screen. I think she is recessive red


At time 0:23 you can see two black saddle chicks at the center of the screen, they are the first round baby of the above pair, these two look like black saddle, but they have a shade of red underneath if you look careful, thus I call them kite saddle, both of them turn out to be hen

the second round of chicks are both red saddle, same colour as their mother, both chicks turn out to be male.

the third round chicks, one red one kite, the red is male, the kite one is hen.


Now I pair the kite hen from the first round to a yellow saddle cock bird, he is on the video as well, the big bird with tail cut, at the bottom right corner of the screen at time 0:58.

they had 2 round of baby, one black, one yellow, too young to tell the sex yet, but I assume the black is male, the yellow should be hen??

the 3rd round, one chick is kite, the other one is red saddle as the color look like the grandma, this is the one I am asking about , many thanks



http://youtu.be/OOcnWn9wDEU


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

dingweding said:


> Thank you so much to get back to me, here is a video with the birds ,possibly better to tell if you can see them
> 
> Grandpa : *if you are sure that the blacks are hens then he cannot be dilute (even though off the bat I would ahve said he was dun also) Could he be blue barless??*
> 
> ...


Gorgeous fantails btw! Esp that one with the thin black ribbon on the tail


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

dingweding said:


> I know red normally can be sex linked gene, when they pass from mother side
> 
> I have a red saddle female pair up with dark grey saddle male, all the red saddle chicks from them turn out to be male, while all the black saddle chicks are all female.
> 
> ...


dingweding,

Your Indians are ash red, not recessive red. The birds you are referring to as dilute look more like milky ash-red, not dilute. Milky is common in the British Indian Fantail genome. It is a non sex-linked recessive gene so can be produced from a pair of heterozygous milky birds.

Could you post some photographs of your birds? It would make identification easier than from video footage.


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

ThePigeonGene said:


> Gorgeous fantails btw! Esp that one with the thin black ribbon on the tail


thanks, I have a few birds with that colour , see this video

http://youtu.be/tqGF9sKMuE8

this is also an interesting gene, I think it should be called pencil gene?

I pair the hen from the first video with the cock in the second video, they have this kinda black ribbon on the tail.

however, none of their chicks show ribbon any more, instead, all the chicks turn out more like tail mark, which is pure black feather, although there are some pure white feather mixed here and there


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## dingweding (Jun 2, 2012)

indigobob said:


> dingweding,
> 
> Your Indians are ash red, not recessive red. The birds you are referring to as dilute look more like milky ash-red, not dilute. Milky is common in the British Indian Fantail genome. It is a non sex-linked recessive gene so can be produced from a pair of heterozygous milky birds.
> 
> Could you post some photographs of your birds? It would make identification easier than from video footage.


here is the dun cock bird when he is young

http://www.indianfantailclub.co.uk/indian-fantail-pigeon-gallery.html

he is at right bottom corner of gallery, the 2nd row from bottom , on the right side


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

MILKY!

Yes makes sense, because chicks of both sexes need 2 doses to show as milky.

And that means that if your black hen chicks also carries it. If your yellow cock is also milky then they can produce both yellow/grey and red/black of both sexes.

So it will not be possible to tell the gender of the baby.


I'm not too convinced they are ash red, i've certainly never seen an ash yellow of that colour but then again I am not experienced with fantails


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