# Help, please... Another Sick Bird :(



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Yesterday everybody looked OK, but today, Junior, the mother of Little Bar, my YB who died Thursday night, doesn't look so good, so into the house she came. 

She is not throwing up, her beak, mouth, and throat look normal, and her vent is clean (despite the nasty looking poo pictured below) but she stands in that same huddled posture as Little Bar did. Neither end of her has the odd odor that Little Bar had, and she is stronger (able to fly and was not easy to catch, resisted being "burrito'd"). She's between rounds of eggs, but I don't think she's ready to lay again yet, though she was mating with her partner yesterday. I checked, but didn't see evidence of "off" poo in the coop, but that may only mean she's been pooping when she's in the aviary (that has a grill floor).

The poop is similar in color to Little Bar's:








but seems to have a _little_ more shape to it than the green goo Little Bar was passing; it came out as a strand, then kind of melted into a heap.

She's secured in my extra bathroom, in a cat carrier, and the heating pad is on low under part of the box. She has ACV water available, but nothing to eat.

Please, what should I do next? Since the situation's not _quite_ the same as with Little Bar (no vomiting, and her crop doesn't feel either full or empty), I'm not sure whether to start with Metronidazole, Medistatin, Sulmet, or ???
(sorry to be a pest, but I've just lost my real-time pigeon mentor, and I'm rather distracted...)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Have plain white Paper Towels as her cage Bottom liner...it will help for seeing the poops better.


If you wanted to try the 'Sulmet', may as well.

Does your container have instructions for mixing for one Bird, and, for the graduated sequence of dosage?


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for coming to my assistance again... I've taken the ACV water away (can't tell if she drank or not) so she will be thirsty enough to drink the sulmet water.

The bottle of Sulmet I have says 2 tablespoons per gallon is an appropriate dose for chickens (61 to 89 mg/lb/day) and turkeys (53 to 130 mg/lb/day) "depending on age, class, ambient temperature and other factors" 
Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about pigeons. 
I remember you said .2cc in 3 oz of liquid would have been a day's dose for Little Bar.

I'll weigh her; hope I can get her to stand still on the scale -- 

EDIT: she stood still (good girl!) weighs 372g 

she's not as easy about being handled as the YB are, though she does eat treat seeds from my hand. I have not given her anything to eat since I brought her in the house, though I don't know how much, if anything, she might have eaten before lunch time. She is alert, watching me move around, and seems to feel the carrier is her "safety zone" and has been sitting on the warm side of it, in a nesting posture. I had to make her get up so I could change the paper towel. As of now she has not vomited (which I hope is a better thing than worse).

Paper towels were down; the first poop landed on the door grill of the carrier as I opened it (it's hinged at the bottom like a drawbridge) so I took the earlier pic as best I could. More recent one below; I'm not sure how long ago it was, because the paper towel has wicked out the moisture, and I just came back from a meeting and found it. 









Another poo from about 8pm...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would say to treat for Canker...and, use the 'Sulmet' also, since you may well have both a Canker condition and a budding Bacterial one going on.


The 'flat' Paint-Like Urates are tyipcal of a Trichomoniasis problem.


If she is pooping at least half of what normal amounts would be all tolled, and the 'greenish' material is in fact fecal matter...may as well let her eat, but maybe just keep it to smaller size Seeds for the time being.


If the greenish material is Bile, then let her fast for now.


You can test whether the material is Bile or green fecal matter, by finger tip making a streak with some on a sheet of white paper.


If it is thinly pigmented and had fibre and roughage in it, it is fecal matter.

If it is like a Green Paint 'gel' and is reasonably well pigmented and free of fiber and roughage, then it is Bile.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

OK, she's had a quarter-pill of metronidazole 250mg (~62.5mg)
Since the smeared poop has some fibery looking stuff in it and the pigmentation thins out, I've offered her a small dish of finch mix seed; they are all tiny, the size of mustard seed or millet. 
When I took in the sulmet-water (it's in a glass bowl that's heavy enough she can't knock it over) she was checking out the seed dish. 
Interest in the seeds is a good thing, I hope...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Interest in Seeds is a good thing.


Whether we also let them have any, is a different matter! Lol...sometimes they will wish to eat, and, we must not allow it.


Glad to hear the poop is 'poop' even if it may have some extra Bile in it.

I just got one in who has about the same thing going on...if maybe a little further advanced.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Phil, good luck with your new patient... and thanks again for advising me; I'm sure your hands are full already.

I have another few questions... 

Junior's just had ~62mg of metronidazole (a quarter of a 250mg pill, as previously recommended). The metronidazole I just got is 60mg pills and says dose is "1 pill, 1 time, though may need to repeat." Is 60mg a usual dose (or daily dose, if repeat is needed) or do real-life recommendations vary from package instructions on this?

I mixed the sulmet/water in the proportions you recommended for Little Bar as a daily ration. (.2ml/3oz) 
Is this something that needs to be adjusted for weight differences, or will a bigger bird just drink more, so I'll have to make another batch more frequently? 
I'm under the impression that the sulmet mixture should be made in small batches and used promptly, rather than made ahead in a large batch and given over several days.

I hope she bounces back from this quickly; even before I left with Junior in the carrier, her mate was standing on the brick in the aviary cooing those aggrieved, "where the #%$ _are_ you" coos. Usually he's an incorrigible player and tries to hit on all the hens. 

How soon should I begin to see a difference in the poops?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



60 mG for 24 hours, of the Metronidazole should be fine. It is forgiving anyway, far as some up or down of doze. Figure to use it for about five or six days.


Should see decent changes in the poops/urates over the next few days.


I may have got the 'SULMET' tiny dose goofed up. Please padron me.

What would be easiest and least liable to error, would be just to make a Quart say, and, keep in a cool dark place while it is being used.


Mixing ratio for 'SULMET' is given as 22.5 mL to a Gallon of Water.


So for a Quart, you would use 1/4th of that, or, say, 5.5 mL of the Medicine.


You have a Callibrated 10 mL Syringe which would make this easy to do.

Just find a clean Quart Bottle, and, make up a Quart, and that can be her drinking Water for the next few days, and, by then, the disage lightens, and we can address that at that time.


I tried reviewing the Avian Formulary for 'Sulfamethazine', and the information does not appear to be convenient for application to 'Sulmet'.

Info is, for Pigeon -


1.1 g/L

2 g/L

3.333-6.666 g/L


For 'Drink' - QD


'Sulmet' is ( in our case, ) "Sulfamethazine 12.5 %"


I will have someone good with Math have-a-peek.


My 'math brain' is a 'flat line' to-day.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for the additional numbers... I did use a tiny syringe to measure the .2 dose I put in 3 oz of water for her earlier... 
(had a few left from giving SQ procrit to one of my cats some years ago).

I'm not usually awful at math; I wonder:

If Sulmet is 12.5% strength, that's 1/8 (.125) so, would we use 8 times the amount of it per unit of water to get the doses given for 100% (is that what the numbers I quoted below are?) Sulfamethazine?

Is this close enough to water's SG to use 1g=1cc=1ml ? (if I haven't totally butchered that; it's been many moons since science class, and I wasn't great at it then).

I'm not sure I understand this, though:


> 1.1 g/L
> 
> 2 g/L
> 
> 3.333-6.666 g/L


It looks like 3 different strengths... is Sulfamethazine a med that the dose changes over time? or is available in a variety of preparations? 

If anything, she has an "underdose" unless I'm worse at math than I hope I am... 
I'll check back in the morning for correction/confirmation of correct dose; it's late enough that I'm getting foggy and I don't want to screw this up.

Thanks again!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

This stuff will drive ya nuts.


Lol...

The figures from the Avian Pharmacopia/Formulary are probably weight of pure dry Sulfamethazine anyway, with no ready way for us to decide the weight of the 12.5 aspect of the 'SULMET' for comparing. 

And, we can see how widerly they vary per citation.

So...I'd say...

Just mix a Quart according the the Label, and call it 'macaronii'.


Or, head back to 'Foys' and get some 'Enroflaxyn' and maybe 'Divit'.


I have never really used the 'SULMET' to have felt familiar with it.

I am trying it now, on a few sick Bird things I have going here presently, to see if it may work...and I just mix up a Quart at-a-time, as per the Label directions ( 22.5 mL to a Gallon, or, 5.5 mL to a Quart ).


That might be as good as it is going to get for this Medicine, unless other sources of information happen to forthcome.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, it can be quite confusing without understanding how these things are quoted/measured. When percentages are quoted as a concentration in liquid medicine it is based on there being, "X" grams of pure medicine (whatever it may be) per 100cc of liquid. So with the 12.5% Sulmet for instance, it means there are 12.5 grams (12,500mg) Sulfamethazine for each 100cc of liquid. I just find it easier to move the decimal point and think of it this way, 125mg of pure med for each 1cc of liquid. In another example, 10% Baytril would simply mean there are 100mg of Baytril (Enrofloxacin) in each 1cc of liquid.

With your situation the chicken dose would have worked, 2 tablespoons a gallon. The dose the chickens would take in would be a bit different than a pigeon as they consume more water. The most mentioned dosing for pigeons is 1 1/2 tablespoons a gallon for three days, then reduce to one tablespoon for 4 days. If you want to make a smaller amount, Phil's suggestion would be fine 5.5cc/mL (1cc=1mL) per quart would be fine. With sickness now in two birds you may be better off doing up a gallon and flock treating as a precaution and also start a disinfection program for your loft. Use a 1:10 solution of bleach to water (1 part bleach to 9 parts of water) throw all old food and water away, soak the dishes in the solution, wipe and clean everywhere the best you can with the solution, perches, ledges, floors and so on, be aware that this solution off gasses, so if you could move them around to protect them from fumes it would be good. You know your set up, just be quite cautious, but make sure to get the dishes, perches, stands and floors (if concrete, scrape and wipe) at least done.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Karyn & Phil, I think I'm keeping up... having to learn fast here.

This morning, the plot thickens: here are pics of the overnight poop.
Is that tan thing a worm? 
If it is, I have Wormout gel; is it safe to combine in the same water with Sulmet?








Closeup:


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's a worm. Go ahead and start the worming.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, as Pidgey says, it's a worm. You have a couple of options, the first is Worm Outgel can be dosed concentrated, 0.05mL (roughly one drop) per 100 grams of body weight. Your little one weighs 373 grams, so four drops would do it. You can place two drops on a small piece of fresh bread (1/4x 1/2") ball it up and "pop" it like in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow, do this twice for a total of four drops and repeat in 10-14 days. Since we know s/he does have worms, I would recommend direct dosing as we want to make sure s/he received enough medicine to take care of the worm problem, as we know with 100% certainty, this bird has worms.

With the others you could do flock treatment along with the Sulmet as I am unaware of an conflicts in co-administration and I had a look around and I could find none in my search.

Please keep a careful watch on this little one's fluid consumption as a great risk right now is dehydration, she should be drinking around 1-1 1/2 onces of water a day.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for the Wormout bread-pill instructions, Karyn! 
I've just given Junior one, and she went and took a drink right after (guess it needed a chaser). 
Should I give her the second one right away, or wait until I'm sure the first one will stay down? 
(vomiting has not been an issue so far, and I guess is isn't as much a horror to pij as it is to me, since that's how they feed the squeakers...)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, right away, as this will be a full dose, then you are done for 10-14 days. You mentioned a pigeon mentor, could you check with this person and see what they use to worm. The reason I mention this is I have used Worm Out Get in the past with success, but there was a bird who passed a worm in her dropping, similar situation to yours who I treated and who did not pass any more worms. Her droppings still looked off, so on a hunch I treated her with Pyrantel Pamoate and later that afternoon she passed about six large worms and later a few more again. This is why it is mentioned to rotate wormers, as sometimes a given wormer is not effective in every situation. Please keep an eye out for more worms during treatment and if you don't see anymore during the course of treatment, we may need to consider trying Pyrantel or Ivermectin.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Karyn. I think there is some kind of ivermectin down at the loft, but I'm not sure if it's expired... will have to check, and can't until tomorrow.

Now, Junior's had a full dose of Wormout via bread pills, and drank well between them.
She's not due for another metronidazole dose until evening, and there's Sulmet in her water. 
I can't really tell how much seed (finch mix; small seeds) she's taken, but I did see her pecking at it. 

Is there anything more I need to do other than hourly "maid service?" 
I will post poop pics if I see anything change...

She seems comfortable; either lounging on one wing, or sitting in a nesting pose. She pays attention when I come into the room, and walks around the floor when I change the paper towels, but doesn't get defensive until "the hand" gets within range. After the last bread pill, she flew out of the burrito wrap. 

Unfortunately, my local pigeon mentor passed away yesterday (Lou Arcuri; I posted about him in the racing section), so I'm learning by reading and asking questions here. I've been posting questions in the open forum so other folks can learn by reading the thread... as I've learned (at least enough to hopefully be asking the right questions) from reading here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, her droppings in the last photos look just about like pure bile droppings, no solids, so she has not been eating, not a huge deal for her right now, because she is of good body mass at 373 grams, but something to watch (please monitor her weight and report as we go along). We just really need to make sure she is drinking enough, has smaller seeds (no peas or corn) and kept in warm part or your house. One of the things that can be done for them when ill is provide supplemental heat for them to conserve energy to devote to healing, if you have a heating pad you could set it up so a portion of her cage is heated (set it on low either under the cage or with a towel doubled over it) and she can decide whether she wants to move onto it for some extra warmth. With the Ivermectin, many drugs if stored right can be used beyond their expiry date, please check the date and let us know how/where it was stored and what percent it is.

I am sorry to hear you lost your mentor, please accept my condolences, we'll just have to try and fill in for him the best we can.

Did you start flock treatment on your other birds with the Sulmet and Worm-Out Gel?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I will start flock treatment with the Sulmet & WormOut tomorrow; I can't get to the coop today. 

Heating pad is already under part of the box, and that's where she usually hangs out. 
The room is my extra bathroom, and is pretty warm; it's not air conditioned when the door is closed. (I'd open a window, but the screen for it expired, and I'm not taking any chances...) There's an exhaust fan that actually does exhaust, not just recycle the air and I run it briefly when it seems oppressively stuffy. 

Junior has passed another worm, and grunted at me when I made her step off the soiled PT so I could change it. She seems to be drinking appropriately, and greedily scarfed up a few sunflower hearts when I offered them, but doesn't think much of the finch mix. (It was the only small-seed stuff I could get that wasn't fruity.) I hid a few more sunflower hearts in the dish of finch mix hoping to encourage her to try more of it. 

Since she's very interested in the sunflower hearts (no surprise), how much can I let her have without doing her a mischief? I don't want to tax her digestion, and also don't want her to learn to be finicky and refuse the smaller seeds if they are a lot better for her, but I do want her to eat enough to stay strong, since I'm sure the wormer is taking some of the starch out of her.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


If 'poops' are now 'Bile' instead of fecal matter ( remember the test?) then I would with-hold solid Foods for now.

'Ivermectin Plus' is a good Wormer, I think 'Foys' carries it...does a wider range of worm kinds than many of the others, and is safer than many others also.

If 'poop' is merely greenish fecal matter, than small whole Seeds would be alright, if with caution.

We don't want her getting clogged up where nothing passes....so, keep checking her Crop, and, monitoring the poops.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Try 'Canary' Mix then...or a mix of small whole Seeds, without colored kibble or dried 'fruit' things in it...'Petsmart' or similar should have.

Good luck!


That was a pretty BIG Worm!!!


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Hi Phil,

Her crop feels fine, though the poop was more bile, so I took away the seed for now. She still seems to be drinking OK, and seems more bored than uncomfortable.

Thanks for that information; I wasn't sure if Canary mix would be as good or better than the finch mix... the colored kibble some of the mixes put me off even when they didn't have fruit, and I knew that pigeons don't generally eat fruit. 

The second worm was just like the first one ...  
I wonder how many more there are... and how long it will take for all of them to pass.
I am not letting my husband see the worms; he would be even more squicked than just from the poop.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, because of the way Little Bar expired you are right to be cautious with taxing her GI system, as if it stops up, we will not be able to get hydration and meds into her. Again, a big plus for her is a very good body mass, so she could safely go a few days without a lot of food, as long as she is well hydrated, with no problems, this will give the meds a chance to do their work. With the sunflower hearts (raw not roasted, right?), these could be chopped up finer in a day or so to make passage and digestion easier, but withhold as Phil has suggested for a bit. Keep feeling her crop area to make sure things (IE. the palm hearts you have already given) are moving through her, this information will be helpful in determining the timing on adding more food back in.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, it's a good thing I didn't give her any more to eat, she threw everything up, including the bread-pills of wormout, and some stuff that has to be from yesterday before I brought her in the house (a couple of peas, and some oat-ish looking seeds and a few safflower, that are in the seed mix that's the regular feed, and not in the mix I have here). Yes, the sunflower hearts are raw.

Before I discovered that she'd thrown up, I was just going to give her the metronidazole dose for the day and let her have sulmet-water for the night, and offer seeds in the morning.

She didn't vomit water along with the seeds (no puddle on the paper towels, just damp seeds). She just threw up again, this time some of the smaller seeds, so I guess she ate some of the finch mix. But still, not very wet. I know she's been drinking, though, because I can see that there's less in the dish -- none has been spilled (or I'd see marks on the paper towels) and it doesn't evaporate that fast.

I've checked her crop again, and can feel a little stuff in it, but it feels like loose stuff and moves around, not hard or lumpy. She just drank a bit of sulmet-water...

Since she vomited the wormout bread pills, I don't know how much of the dose she actually got... the bread was still pill shaped, but not very soggy. Should I swap in the water that has the wormout mixed in it? I'm thinking I shouldn't try more bread pills, since she still has stuff in her crop. 

Poops are still similar, but the last two a little smaller, drier (not so much wet rings on the paper towels), and no worms in these.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think this a point at which if it were me...

I would with-hold all solid foods.

Is 'Wormout' a Pill? Or a Liquid?

If a Pill, just have her swallow it and keep track of it in case it gets thrown up.

If a Liquid, add it to her Day's Drinking Water.

And, keep on with the Metroidazole Tablets.


More below...next post...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



Your last Pigeon who expired -


I had thought there was a primary Canker problem, with a Candida issue attending...and complications from these.

I was not really too hep on things being of a Bacterial infection, even though such can sometimes slip stream in with the Canker, or, even, preceed it.


None the less, it made sense-enough to consider to be using an Anti-Biotic, along with the other stuff.


I did not think Worms were especially probable, since usually younger Pigeons have not had time for serious Worms to be an issue.


Now, with this Pigeon, in looking back, I am not so sure. Possibly your prior Bird did have serious underlieing or primary Worm issues, and, the other illnesses we had supposed, were secondary ( if life threatening in their own right ).

Possibly the basic issue with this present Bird, is one of Worm problems, Worm lesions, Worm toxins, and mechanical Dams of Worms, into which condition, Canker very possibly has opportuned.


If I had to make a guess for a simplified regimen, my guess would be for it to be one of administering Worm meds, and, Metronidazole, and see how things go with that. With-holding Seeds, and allowing dupervised drinking while monitoring the Crop's behavior or passing of the Liquids.


The 'Sulmet' presumes a Bacterial or maybe a Coccidia problem, for which we have no real signs, other than to figure that the Medicine would not hurt, and or that there is a Bacterial issue.

Possibly under the present conditions, again, we are finding it awkward to be trying to use so many medicines at once, for a Bird who is not anylonger even managing to hold anything down well...but, whom we may hope is still able to pass Liquids alright.


This is my thought then, to consder a simplified reminen to address the Worms, and, the Canker only, and to skip the 'Sulmet' for now.

Whether there is yet any reason to suspect Candida, I don't know, other than it would be a likely one to be insinuating itself into these conditions. So, Medistain could be given...and, six hours later, the Worm meds given, and six hours later, the Medistain again, and probably that would be alright and prudent. with the Metronidazole being given when-ever.

I hope Karyn will share her thought also.


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, Phil, and for sharing your reasoning on this...

Since Little Bar was the child of this Junior, I think it's possible that worms were an issue with her too, even though we didn't actually see any. Though after Junior laid her next round of eggs, she didn't feed Little Bar anymore... 

So, what Junior has tonight, is ACV water with Wormout & Sulmet in it (which I'd mixed up earlier and refrigerated to help preserve, and have let get warm the dish of it that I've given her), and I will give her a metronidazole pill in a little while. Should I be only allowing her to drink when I'm right there with her?

I'm waiting on the pill, to see if she vomits any more seeds. I'm thinking that she might after she drinks again, or not... 
I guess I'll know if/when it happens.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Thanks for the advice, Phil, and for sharing your reasoning on this...
> 
> Since Little Bar was the child of this Junior, I think it's possible that worms were an issue with her too, even though we didn't actually see any. Though after Junior laid her next round of eggs, she didn't feed Little Bar anymore...
> 
> ...




May as well...sounds good to me...if you can manage the 'SULMET' alright with the other things, may as well go for the gusto.


Drinking with supervision will allow you to be sure how much she is drinking, and, that she is drinking.

And, will prevent over-drinking if her Crop is passing Liquids too slowly for her sense of thirst.

And will prevent the Water Bowl being knocked over where you then would maybe not know how much was drank, verses how much was spilled.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I took the meds water away after Junior took a big guzzle, then waited about 45 minutes, to see if it would stay down. 
It did, and then I gave her the metronidazole. 
About 40 minutes later, everything is still down...  ::crosses fingers::
I offered her another drink, but she wasn't interested yet... will offer again in another 45 minutes or so, unless I learn it is not a good idea.

Question: at night, is it better to let them rest/sleep, since it's their natural time to do it, or periodically offer a drink to help them stay hydrated?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> I took the meds water away after Junior took a big guzzle, then waited about 45 minutes, to see if it would stay down.
> It did, and then I gave her the metronidazole.
> About 40 minutes later, everything is still down...  ::crosses fingers::
> I offered her another drink, but she wasn't interested yet... will offer again in another 45 minutes or so, unless I learn it is not a good idea.


Sounds good...




> Question: at night, is it better to let them rest/sleep, since it's their natural time to do it, or periodically offer a drink to help them stay hydrated?



If you are up and in the mood, no harm to offer them a Drink.


I assume the 'Drink' is medicine Water?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, Phil has asked me to give my thoughts so I will. First, with the metronidazole the dose you are treating her with is of the amount to be used in a confirmed case of canker, right now it is only on a suspect list, so we could reduce the dose considerably and still have it in a suggested range to treat canker and that would be 50mg/kg BID (twice a day), which for Junior would be 20mg twice a day. I am suggesting twice a day dosing as metronidazole is known to cause problems with vomiting, so instead of one larger dose I am hope two smaller ones will reduce the chance of this reoccurring. What was the last dose you gave, how much, and when?

Second, I would remix her water medicine to incorporate re-hydration fluid. To make a gallon you would add 2 teaspoons of salt, 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (bicarbonate of soda) and 8 tablespoons of sugar. To this I would add 1 1/2 tablespoons of Sulmet. You can supervise her drinking as Phil suggested, but I would be offering it to her every hour and as early as you can in the morning. 

Third, to compensate for what the ACV was possibly treating for, yeast, we will use the Nystatin. Get a cooking measuring teaspoon and measure out a teaspoon (scoop it in until it is slightly rounded and level off with a swipe of a knife across the top). Divide this evenly in two and put back half into the jar. With the other half you will add this to combination 2mL water and 3mL syrup (Karo Syrup or even pancake syrup and mix well. This will now be a suspension of 200,000iu per mL you will give her 0.20mL (roughly four drops) twice a day, just use the 1cc syringe to put a drop or two into the front of her mouth and let her tongue it down. Refrigerate, and shake well before each use.

Fourth, in the morning I would like to get her started on the Ivermectin, how early can you get it? It will be much easier to dose than the Worm-Out.

Because now the symptoms are exactly matching Little Bar it is imperative that you start disinfection measures and flock treatment ASAP for the rest of the birds in the morning. Did you by any chance start a new bag of feed? Can you check the old bag to see if it got wet/damp or smells "moldy" or "off" in any way. Also, carefully look through the bag for any darkened/discolored areas or areas fused together.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> If you are up and in the mood, no harm to offer them a Drink.
> I assume the 'Drink' is medicine Water?


Glad to hear "no harm" since I was concerned about balancing the need for water with the need for rest, and not sure if interruptions to rest are as challenging to pij as they are to some people.

Yes, the 'Drink' is medicine water. 

I would not make a good pigeon; I stay up until about 3am and sleep until 10 or 11 (which is why I was asking if it were a better or worse thing, since it will be mid-late morning until she gets more, if I don't offer her a drink before I tuck myself in.)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They sleep a lot less than us anyway...and, if sleeping more because if feeling ill, it is no big deal if we wake them for med-times or drinking-times, they can always just go right back to sleep if they like.


How about some to-day's poop images?


Do you have any Good Guy/Gal Avian Vets you could go see if need be?


Some 'Reglan' might be useful here ( reduces inflammation of the intestines and other upper passages )...and or also just to see if they have anything they could add for a diagnosis or 'Model' of what is happening here...


Usually the method for cleaning Lofts from Worm conditions, is to use a Blow Torch and fry the 'eggs' which may be presumed to be adhering to various surfaces.


What is your Loft like, sq ft wise and structurally?


Heavy Rubber-Glove 'Bleach-Water' scrubbing and clear or Soapy Water rinsing may well be good enough also, if all can drain or be flushed well.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> right now it [Canker] is only on a suspect list, so we could reduce the dose considerably and still have it in a suggested range to treat canker and that would be 50mg/kg BID (twice a day), which for Junior would be 20mg twice a day. I am suggesting twice a day dosing as metronidazole is known to cause problems with vomiting, so instead of one larger dose I am hope two smaller ones will reduce the chance of this reoccurring. What was the last dose you gave, how much, and when?


I gave her a 60mg tab about 2.5-3 hours ago, and it has stayed down, so far. She had a similar dose (1/4 of a 250mg tab) last night.
Is there a special trick to splitting them into thirds?



> Second, I would remix her water medicine to incorporate re-hydration fluid. To make a gallon you would add 2 teaspoons of salt, 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (bicarbonate of soda) and 8 tablespoons of sugar. To this I would add 1 1/2 tablespoons of Sulmet. You can supervise her drinking as Phil suggested, but I would be offering it to her every hour and as early as you can in the morning.


I've been offering her a drink about every hour, but she doesn't always want some. 
I stay with her about 10 or 15 minutes, and talk to her, etc. (maybe I shouldn't try to engage her? might she drink better if I make myself inconspicuous?) 
When she does drink, she drinks for several seconds, not just a quick sip.

Is it OK to reduce the recipe to a half-gallon or quart? (though measuring the baking soda could be challenging). I'll get up early for her...



> Third, to compensate for what the ACV was possibly treating for, yeast, we will use the Nystatin. Get a cooking measuring teaspoon and measure out a teaspoon (scoop it in until it is slightly rounded and level off with a swipe of a knife across the top). Divide this evenly in two and put back half into the jar.


Can use 1/2 tsp measure & level? I'm probably not good at eyeballing halves.



> With the other half you will add this to combination 2mL water and 3mL syrup (Karo Syrup or even pancake syrup and mix well. This will now be a suspension of 200,000iu per mL you will give her 0.20mL (roughly four drops) twice a day, just use the 1cc syringe to put a drop or two into the front of her mouth and tongue it down. Refrigerate, and shake well before each use.


In my own words to be sure I understand... recipe is: 
level 1/2 tsp Nystatin (mine is Medistatin 400k IU/gram, is that pretty much standard?) 
2ml water 
3ml corn syrup 
administer in mouth via syringe, two drops, twice daily. 



> Fourth, in the morning I would like to get her started on the Ivermectin, how early can you get it? It will be much easier to dose than the Worm-Out.


Early afternoon, since i go to feed and water the coops in late morning, and the ivermectin is at the loft. 
I hope we have enough to go around, with what's on hand. 
I will save some out for Junior first; how much will I need for starters?



> Because now the symptoms are exactly matching Little Bar it is imperative that you start disinfection measures and flock treatment ASAP for the rest of the birds in the morning. Did you by any chance start a new bag of feed? Can you check the old bag to see if it got wet/damp or smells "moldy" or "off" in any way. Also, carefully look through the bag for any darkened/discolored areas or areas fused together.


I will check the feed in the morning, for off-ness and other anomalies. Serious, Major Cleanup will be happening this week at the loft... I'm already planning on flock treatment as Phil suggested upthread. This is going to be a tough week...

Thanks for your recommendations, Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> I gave her a 60mg tab about 2.5-3 hours ago, and it has stayed down, so far. She had a similar dose (1/4 of a 250mg tab) last night.
> Is there a special trick to splitting them into thirds?


OK, she will not need anymore for 21 hours, let me think about easiest way for you to dose smaller amounts.



> Is it OK to reduce the recipe to a half-gallon or quart? (though measuring the baking soda could be challenging). I'll get up early for her...


Yes, it is fine to make smaller amounts, you will need to adjust the Sulmet to 5.5mL per quart is all. Just use a small "pinch" of baking soda.



> Can use 1/2 tsp measure & level? I'm probably not good at eyeballing halves.


Yes, of course this is fine.



> In my own words to be sure I understand... recipe is:
> level 1/2 tsp Nystatin (mine is Medistatin 400k IU/gram, is that pretty much standard?)
> 2ml water
> 3ml corn syrup
> administer in mouth via syringe, two drops, twice daily.


Yes, 400k IU/gm fairly standard, and almost exactly right, but it will be four (4) drops 0.20mL twice daily.



> Early afternoon, since i go to feed and water the coops in late morning, and the ivermectin is at the loft.
> I hope we have enough to go around, with what's on hand.
> I will save some out for Junior first; how much will I need for starters?


Not much, it's most likely 1% so we need just two drops, wait for instructions for this once you confirm info on it.



> I will check the feed in the morning, for off-ness and other anomalies. Serious, Major Cleanup will be happening this week at the loft... I'm already planning on flock treatment as Phil suggested upthread. This is going to be a tough week...


Good, please keep us updated, glad to help, see you in the morning.....

Robin, I just re-read my earlier post and I was not clear, stop the ACV entirely for now when you mix the re-hydration fluid.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> How about some to-day's poop images?


All the poop that's fit to scoop: sorry, the first one's an "inkblot" - from about 1am - I folded it up then remembered I needed a pic ... is that another worm on the left side? I didn't notice it on the actual item, only on the photo.








this one's fresh, and she drank nicely after she made it.











> Do you have any Good Guy/Gal Avian Vets you could go see if need be?
> Some 'Reglan' might be useful here ( reduces inflammation of the intestines and other upper passages )...and or also just to see if they have anything they could add for a diagnosis or 'Model' of what is happening here...


Not sure. One of my friends keeps an african grey parrot, but I don't know if her vet sees pigeons. 




> Usually the method for cleaning Lofts from Worm conditions, is to use a Blow Torch and fry the 'eggs' which may be presumed to be adhering to various surfaces.
> What is your Loft like, sq ft wise and structurally?


It is Lou Arcuri's loft... 
Unfortunately, "my" coop section is not torchable. It has some kind of plastic stuff on the walls and part of the ceiling (like formica but thinner and slightly flexible) and styrofoam insulation above the solid part of the ceiling (over the perches; the other part under the peak is gridded and has roof mushroom vents. All sections: frame buildings, wooden box perches and/or nest boxes. Vents and other grids are plastic-coated metal. Some coop sections don't have the plastic walls, but several have styrofoam insulation above the solid parts of the ceilings. I need to look closely to determine whether any could be cleaned with a torch. There are 8 occupied sections in 3 buildings; mine's about 6 x 8, the other in that building is about 6x10; the "garden" coop has a large center section of breeding cages that is unoccupied, but the ends each are about 4 x 8 (one for hens and one for cocks); in the 3rd building, two others about 5 x 8 (widowhood hens/cocks), a section with nest boxes, about 6 x 12, and another that's about 6 x 8. They probably aren't exact sizes, but close enough for jazz.



> Heavy Rubber-Glove 'Bleach-Water' scrubbing and clear or Soapy Water rinsing may well be good enough also, if all can drain or be flushed well.


It will have to be; heating will make fumes if not a fire, and there is no extra space to move birds around, though all but 2 aviaries/fly pens are big enough for all the birds in their sections at once. I think I will have to recruit a crew to help me out with this... and unfortunately, my top prospect just left town for a week at the shore.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Injections of 'Reglan', and 'Baytril' might be very useful about now for this Pigeon...and these would be Skill and Supplies of a Vet.

Probably any sort of Vet would do, so long as they are friendly and interested and willing.

An Avian Vet, in theory, would know more about Birds than say a Large Animal Vet, but, this usually means little, or, even worse in practice, since Avian Vets seldom know very much anyway when it comes to sick Birds or dire exigency things or having mental models for the presentation in front of them. They mostly bluff.

If no Vet is available, maybe 'Foys' carries these in injectibles, and has 1 mL Syringes also for doing the injections.

But, the Shots could be a Life Saver here, and they should occur "a.s.a.p." if they are to be.





Poops appear to be Bile, or, mostly Bile now...can you test one?

Urates appear typical of advanced Canker, or, possibly some other sort of Liver and Kidney infection or major spent Leucocyte maker...

Could be a few more smaller Worms there in the left poop example image...might be one in the right image also, or a hint of one, maybe.

I would begin the Ivormectin now if you can...not wait till to-morrow afternoon.

If you can figure out the Label instructions, do a dose Orally, using the Syringe Catheter-section as we had previously discussed.





My Bottle here, says ".25 ml per 400g Body Weight.

So, if Your Bottle says the same, you would want about .18 ml of the Ivormectin.

.18 is a whole lot like 20 to my mind.

One way to do this, would be to put 10 mL/cc of Water into some tiny cup...refer back to where Karyn referenced how much a usual 'Drop' is for volume...I am pretty sure 20 Drops equal 1 cC or 1 mL...if so, you would want to use two Drops, giving you then .20 mL of the Medicine. Just draw up almost all of it to make the Dose more like ".18" if you want, or use all of it, close enough.


So, add the 2 Ivormectin 'drops' to the 10 ml/cc Water, stirr well...then draw it up into the Catheter equipped Syringe, and, administer into her Crop. Discard the leftover.





If needing to use a 220 mG Tablet to make a 20 mG Dose, you can similarly, just dissolve the Tablet in a 10 mL Syringe, with 5 mL of ACV Water...shake shake shake...if need be, squeeze all out into a tiny cup, draw back in, shake shake skae so no solid glob remain. The draw in the other 5ml of ACV-Water, so the Syringe now holds 10 mL all tolled.


You now have the 220 mG Tablet dissolved in 10 mGs of liquid, where 1 mL would be close enough for one 20 mG Dose...

Administer 1 mL worth, by using the Catheter section fitted to the Syringe, as we discussed previously.


Use Olive Oil or KY to lube the Catheter section...Burrito the Pigeon as described...between your Legs as you sit, under good Lighting, holding the low Tail Belly portion of the Pigeon with the excess Cloth there.

Head up, Neck and entire Esophagus 'straight' and vertical, Beak open and pointing up, distinguish the "Trachea" which is closest to the front, and, where they Breathe from, from the "Esopagus" which is in effect, the back of their Throat...you want to slide the Catheter down their Esopagus/Throat.

The Lubed Catheter will slide into and down the Esophagus merely by the weight of the Syringe...no pushing...twirl if need be for it to slide down in easier. Be slow and gentle.

Get an idea first where the Syringe Body will have it's end, in relation to the Pigeon's Beak, for the length od Catheter fitted...so once the section of Catheter is into the mid or lower Crop, you know where you are at with it.

Or, use a little piece of contrasting Tape, and wrap it around the Catheter, to Mark the Catheter where you wish for it to be at the Beak, for the end of it then to be in the mid or lower Crop.

Like that.


Best wishes Robin!!


Phil
Lv

Shake the dissolved Metronidazole well immediately before use, since the suspension will tend to settle.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's the early (for me) Monday morning report on Junior:
One more vomit overnight; mixture of seeds from early & late Saturday; she has been fasting since then. 
She had several drinks of meds-water with wormout in the mix on Sunday, before I changed to rehydration solution on Karyn's advice. 
This morning she was pretty active and did not want to go back in the carrier. 
Seems hungry, was pecking at flecks in the vinyl floor pattern. 
















More worms...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, no food at all. Please let her drink right now as she wishes, provide her her water dish (re-hydration with the Sulmet). Glad she is active. What's the timing on the Ivermectin? Droppings look a touch better in moisture content, still passing worms, some of the Worm-Out may have gotten through.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Hi Karyn,
Junior has rehydration+sulmet and no food. I'll not offer any until you or Phil advise it. 
I guess it's good that she keeps giving me the "don't I get some seeds, too?" look, but I won't cave. 
I will try to get the Ivermectin earlier than lunchtime, but it is in a locked area and I may have to wait for the key.
I'm about to do the Medistatin/syrup drops dose for the morning...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Good, I'll be checking in on a regular basis to watch for when you get the Ivermectin, and no don't cave in. Make sure you remove all vomited seeds ASAP.

Robin, I forgot to mention we may need a syringe with a needle to get the Ivermectin out of the bottle.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Hi Karyn,

Thanks for reminding to take syringe for Ivermectin... though I don't have any needles (guess I should have gotten some when I got the syringes...) 

I'm going there now; if I can get the ivermectin right away, I'll come right back with it.

I've been cleaning up everything immediately I find it... I should buy stock in Bounty.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I brought the ivermectin into the house... it is Ivomec, liquid, and says 5mg/ml.

Also found some Permectrin II liquid that is 10% permethrin. 
Label recommends use as "premises spray with 30-day residual effects"
Recommended dilution for spraying premises is 40 cc per gallon of water.
Would this be good to use after the thorough coop clean up?

Here's latest poop, from about 11:30am









ETA: when I cleaned up from this one, I noticed Junior had been preening... took me a moment to figure out what the little white bits on the paper were


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, do you have a way to get it out of the bottle?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, do you have a way to get it out of the bottle?


Would a syringe without a needle work? 
That's how I've been getting the Sulmet out of the bottle, since I wasn't making a big enough quantity to pour into measuring spoon.

I know 5mg/ml is a stronger solution than expected, but it's what we've got...

Please, I also need to know what dose to make up as gallons to use in the loft drinkers.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Would a syringe without a needle work?
> That's how I've been getting the Sulmet out of the bottle, since I wasn't making a big enough quantity to pour into measuring spoon.
> 
> I know 5mg/ml is a stronger solution than expected, but it's what we've got...
> ...


Does the bottle have screw off top, or a rubber membrane, that you need a needle to get through?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Just read in another thread about worming, a mention of 3 mo old and up for worming...

There are some just-weaning squeakers & YB mixed in with the others in the lofts; do I need to separate them from the older birds, or can they have the Ivomec-water too? The oldest of them is 3 mo old; the youngest are just finishing weaning (they eat & drink for themselves but still beg).


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

> > Would a syringe without a needle work?
> > That's how I've been getting the Sulmet out of the bottle, since I wasn't making a big enough quantity to pour into measuring spoon.
> >
> > I know 5mg/ml is a stronger solution than expected, but it's what we've got...
> ...


It has a screw top; it's the "pour on" for cattle.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Just read in another thread about worming, a mention of 3 mo old and up for worming...
> 
> There are some just-weaning squeakers & YB mixed in with the others in the lofts; do I need to separate them from the older birds, or can they have the Ivomec-water too? The oldest of them is 3 mo old; the youngest are just finishing weaning (they eat & drink for themselves but still beg).


Let's concentrate on Junior first and we'll make a plan for the rest a little later, can you get the med out of the bottle?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Let's concentrate on Junior first and we'll make a plan for the rest a little later, can you get the med out of the bottle?
> 
> Karyn


Yes, with a syringe sans needle...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, take her water out for now, while I write up your instructionss.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks Karyn,

Done!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I want you to gently "slosh" the contents of the bottle back and forth for a moment and then pour off a small amount into a shot glass or other small container. Wash and rinse well your 1cc syringe and the dip then end into the poured Ivermectin and draw in some, then, all the while, keeping the tip submerged, push this out, then draw some back in to the 0.10cc/mL line, the first line on the 1cc syringe and now the syringe is loaded.

Next, I want you to get a small towel and wrap Junior up in it "burrito style", so she is the "filling" with just her head poking out one end. Next I want you to study this links:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIqHRKeIS8&NR=1


What we are going to do is lift her head and extend her neck, then open her mouth take the syringe insert it down her esophagus and give her the Ivermectin. Before you do this, I want you to do a few things, while she is in your lap open her mouth and look at the base of her tongue and you will see her glottis, this is the opening of her trachea, her "breathing hole", take good notice how far it is in, as we want to make sure we insert the tip of the syringe well past this opening. It is important that her neck be just about straight up and down so it will be easier to insert the syringe.

In the first link above you can get an idea of the basic anatomy involved. I looked for quite a while for the link I really wanted, that I has seen before, and could not find it, so we will have to make do with the second link. In the second link pay very close attention to the way he holds the baby's head and neck and uses his forefinger and thumb to hold open the mouth, while his middle finger is behind the head at the base of the scull area. This is how I want you to hold Juniors head, lift and extend it, tilt it back, slide the syringe between the finger tips holding the mouth open, get well past her glottis and give her the Ivermectin. You can practice a few times with an empty syringe, until you feel sure of your technique.

Sorry this took a while just could not find the links I wanted, but the time is OK, as I wanted her water pulled for 1 hour before and 1 hour after dosing her to reduce the chances of her bringing it back up. You can put back her re-hydration fluid/Sulmet 1 hour after giving her the Ivermectin.

Any questions, please ask.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks Karyn,

I went down to the coop in the meantime, to bleach drinkers and get my helper to start on the cleanup... 

I've noticed the "split" in the tongue that's the trachea... and that there is a good space behind it. She thrashes her head a lot when I hold her beak, but I managed to get her neck straight long enough to do this. The tiny syringe barrel fit well enough into her mouth that I could get the tip all the way to the back. She swallowed a few times after I released her, but did not cough, so I hope I did it right. I will not offer her a drink again until I get "the word" from you.

Please tell me the dose per gallon for the coop birds; I will have to go give theirs... I'd rather not wait another day, since I have the medication. The only good news today is that no birds down there look sick, and none of them is acting strange.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

You did perfect! With some practice it gets easier, as this is the way you would hold her head/neck, or another bird's, if you were going to be tube feeding.

Put back, as I said, her re-hydration/Sulmet in an hour's time.

You can start flock treatment with the Sulmet, 1 1/2 tablespoons to a gallon of water, but I would not mind getting some feedback on the Ivermectin for flock treatment in terms of the younger birds, as I never have dealt with having to do this. 

Guys if you have some input on flock worming with younger birds, your input would be greatly appreciated.

Good job Robin,

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

It's been 15 minutes since the syringe dose, and nothing's come back up yet... hope it doesn't! 
(I still dread the prospect of tube feeding, but will do it if it becomes necessary; just thinking about it pushes my gag button a little, though I'm not generally squeamish) 

OK, will do sulmet for the flock today.... 1.5 tablespoons per gallon of water.

DUH! I finally am getting it... Ivermectin also for the flock, but holding, pending advice about YB having it. (obviously, my brain is full!) 

Thanks again Karyn; this forum is saving my bacon (and pigeons)!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, with the Ivermectin, some are not water soluble, meaning that they can not be used for in water for flock treatment, as they won't mix in. I am not familiar enough with the drench you used to say if it is usable for flock water use, perhaps others will have better information on this.

Before putting back her water do you think you could give her crop a good feel/massage and see if you feel any seeds left in there.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I didn't feel anything left in Junior's crop, so I set the rehydration drink down, and she took a few dainty sips (probably better than wolfing down a lot at once?)

She hasn't vomited or pooped since I gave her the ivermectin, but I can see more evidence of preening (is that good?) I frequently find her lounging on one wing, or sitting as if nesting. Does that mean she's reasonably comfortable?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Preening is always good, and resting the way you describe shows she is comfortable. Good to hear the crop seems empty as well.

With the tube feeding, we may have to cross that bridge, but If you could pick up some of the pellets in the link below, it would be good:

http://lafebercares.com/pinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=19&parent=9

I know from first hand knowledge that these pellets break down fairly quickly in the crop after water is consumed. So it is kind of like feeding by tube with Kaytee Exact in the resulting "mix" in the crop, when a sick bird, not yet ready for seeds, eats these. I have done tests with a number of brands of pellets and these dissolve the quickest, but another brand would do if these are not to be found, such as Zupreem, just make they are Cockatiel size.

If you have these we can test a small amount with her to make sure they break down and then move through her in the next day or so. If they do, there is a chance you may be able to get by without having to tube feed her.

Later on we will have to deal with the metronidazole. Robin if you could get a shot glass and place one of the 250mg Metronidazole pills in it and crush it up into as fine a powder as you can, I use the end of a small whisk I have, look around the kitchen and I am sure you'll find something that will work well. To this now add 2cc/mL of very warm water to dissolve the metronidazole the best you can, metro does not like to dissolve in water, so do the best you can. I just did a test doing this myself doing this with a 250mg Metronidazole pill and it comes out OK. The result give you 125mg/mL of Metro and you will give Junior 0.15mL of this (this is about three drops) this is a touch under the the 20mg we talked about, it will be roughly 18mg, but allowing that she has lost a bit of weight this dose would be correct for 365 grams of body weight. Just make sure you stir the heck out of it than quickly draw up the dose, then refrigerate right in the shot glass with some Saran wrap on top. You can give it to her two ways, the first, a drop into the front of her mouth and let her tongue it down, or the way you gave the Ivermectin earlier today if you feel you are up to it. You will give it at the same time tonight as her last "pill" dose, then the same dose every 12 hours for the next two days.

Did you get a chance to check out the feed?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

*Monday evening update*

Junior has been, umm, busy. Got rid of a lot more worms, and hasn't vomited. 
She's been drinking some, but I'm not sure how much is "enough."
Here are the results:
from about 5pm (changed paper towels & took a quick pic, but didn't have time to post before I had to leave for a meeting...)









And, this I found when I got home about 9:45. 









Karyn, I will try to get some of the pellets you recommend tomorrow (it's 10pm here now...only thing open is Walmart, and they only have wild bird stuff) 

ETA: Petsmart sells the Lefeber cockatiel pellets; hope my local store has them in stock.

I have some of the Kaytee formula mixed & frozen as Phil recommended the other day, and frozen peas and corn (people food). 
Would either of these be appropriate for her to try?
Meantime, her drink is rehydration fluid w/ sulmet.

I did check the feed at the loft, and it is fine. Dry, with no evidence of moisture or other damage to bags or contents. Smells good, not "off."

I think still owe Junior an evening 2-drop dose of the nystatin/corn syrup mixture, unless that is no longer recommended... (she had one this morning, and I thought I understood she should get another in evening)

The metronidazole tabs I have are 60mg (the 250 ones were left over from a cat Rx and I don't have any of them left. I'm sorry; I should have mentioned that). 
I could try splitting one in thirds, freehand, or just halve it and shave off enough to leave 1/3... or is that too inexact? 
At this point, I don't care about wasting part of a pill; I have a fresh bottle of them.



> You will give it at the same time tonight as her last "pill" dose, then the same dose every 12 hours for the next two days.


I don't understand this part; none of what she's been getting are pills 
I do understand "every 12 hours for the next 2 days."


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


My GOD that is a lot of WORMS!!!!


Yeeeeeesh!

That poor Bird...


You can tube in 'Nutrical' mixed with Nutritious fluids...get some Black Cherry Concentrate at a Health Food Store... water down the Nutrical-Cherry combo, tube that in.


This then would have no 'solids', yet wil provide high Calories, good pro-tem Nutrition...would be just fine for now, pending when Formula seems safe to do, or, when solid foods seem permissible again.


Who knows how clogged she is, not only with dead and dieing Worms, or Worms who have not "let go" yet, or Worms who died with their Jaws clamped into tissues which may take a while to shrug...but, also whatever constriction/inflammation and or inflamitory debris from the Canker.

Thin formula might be alright, but, if it was me, I would just do the Nutrical for now, tomorrow do Nutrical and Black Cherry and Water ( so it is not too thick )...ditto the next day, see how things go...and maybe Formula in a few days then.


So far so good!


I have had a lot dumped onto my plate here at my little corner of the World, and it is going to be difficult for me to have any time now ( from now on, for a few months ) for posting.

I will try and look in to your Thread as I can, and I am so glad Karyn is managing this with you...you are in good hands!

Do you have 'Spartrix'?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> I have some of the Kaytee formula mixed & frozen as Phil recommended the other day, and frozen peas and corn (people food).
> Would either of these be appropriate for her to try?
> Meantime, her drink is re hydration fluid w/ sulmet.


No, too soon for the Kaytee, or peas or corn. I may have been optimistic in my thoughts on the trying of pellets tomorrow. Robin, with the way you gave Junior her Ivermectin today you are a good deal of the way there to being able to tube. Do you think you would be up to trying tubing some light nutrition into her?



> I did check the feed at the loft, and it is fine. Dry, with no evidence of moisture or other damage to bags or contents. Smells good, not "off."


Good, this can come off my mind now.



> The metronidazole tabs I have are 60mg (the 250 ones were left over from a cat Rx and I don't have any of them left. I'm sorry; I should have mentioned that). I could try splitting one in thirds, freehand, or just halve it and shave off enough to leave 1/3... or is that too inexact?
> At this point, I don't care about wasting part of a pill; I have a fresh bottle of them.


Yes, doing this is fine, as there is a wide dosing range and safety margin with this med. Just try and get it as close as you can. We just need to do this for a 3 more days, as this will complete the course of treatment time. You will give 18-20mg twice a day for the next three days. When I said "pill", I just meant part of a pill, as I believe you were giving her before. The every 12 hours for the next two days was a dosing schedule, that I slightly revised in the above instructions when I double checked to see how many days she had already been treated. Remember, we are going from a larger once a day dosing to a smaller twice a day dosing, to help avoid any GI upset that may be caused by the Metronidazole.

Well, the photos of the worms is what I was hoping I would see, a real "dump" of them. I am hoping this will calm things down to a great degree in her.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Still more worms! 








This collection from about 10:45pm, but nothing since (yet)...

I've given Junior about 2cc of Nutrical cocktail from the recipe Phil gave me the other day, the same way I gave the ivermectin, with the tiny syringe way to the back of her throat, and she has drunk some sulmet-rehydrating fluid as a chaser. I know she will need more, but I want to be sure it stays down.

@Phil: I don't have any Spartrix, and Foy's, Jedd's and Global are all "out of stock."  Has getting this OTC become an "issue?" 
I have Meditrich, Ronidazole and Permectrin II coming from Jedd's...

@Karyn, thanks for the metronidazole dose clarification... is it OK to give it to her as pill chunk instead of mashing it up and trying to suspend in water?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> I've given Junior about 2cc of Nutrical cocktail from the recipe Phil gave me the other day, the same way I gave the ivermectin, with the tiny syringe way to the back of her throat, and she has drunk some sulmet-rehydrating fluid as a chaser. I know she will need more, but I want to be sure it stays down.
> 
> @Karyn, thanks for the metronidazole dose clarification... is it OK to give it to her as pill chunk instead of mashing it up and trying to suspend in water?


Yes, just "pop" it into the back of her mouth.

Robin, if you are comfortable doing the very small cocktails for the next day until you feel a bit more confidence to graduate, it's OK. If we could get this "cocktail" into her 4 times a day and increase it from 2cc to 6cc each time (just be careful and take your time), this would be 24cc over the day which would make it meaningful nutrition.

I must say, she was truly loaded with worms, I have counted roughly 30 worms so far. I am certain she is feeling much better for this. Could you describe a bit more how things are set up at the loft between your birds and Lou's. Do they ever mix or have access to the same areas? Remind me how many birds were in the same area as Little Bar and Junior.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> I must say, she was truly loaded with worms, I have counted roughly 30 worms so far. I am certain she is feeling much better for this. Could you describe a bit more how things are set up at the loft between your birds and Lou's. Do they ever mix or have access to the same areas? Remind me how many birds were in the same area as Little Bar and Junior.


Junior does seem to be feeling a lot better; she's starting to look around the room when I have the carrier open to change the paper towels (and particularly eyes the closed door speculatively) and seems downright perky, especially considering the late hour.

ETA this pic from about 1:30am... one more worm. 









I have 23 other birds in the section with Junior. Two of those are YB that will be 2 months old this week; 2 are squeakers just finishing weaning (the two youngest I raised for a man who helps out at the loft and takes care of Lou & Kay's gardening and handywork, and has some pij that are pets). In the same building, in another section, there are about 28 of Lou's birds, who raced as YB several years ago. That space is "captive" to mine; so although they don't directly share spaces, partition between them is not sealed. The wood door between sections is solid on the bottom, but slatted above knee level. The aviary has a hardware cloth partition so the birds don't mix. 

My hen Barrie has been on holiday in a coop section in another building, finding a mate (she was part of a 3-some with Junior and her mate Wally earlier in spring, and had actually laid eggs in their nest -- Wally is a player and collect hens if he can... ) Barrie and her new mate have a nest there, along with 2 other mated pairs, some single cocks, and 6 oops YB from this year that are not mine. Eventually I intend to bring Barrie and her mate back into the coop with my other birds, but I may wait until I move them all to my own coop. This coop section has nest boxes; it used to be a widowhood coop and is currently occupied by 19 birds. There is a panel that can be removed to allow hens from an adjacent section to enter when they are permitted, but... 

The adjacent section to this one has about 30 cocks in it. They are older birds; retired racers, breeders, or both. Most of my birds lived in this section until late last fall. (Before I started helping out at Lou's loft, 4 hens from 2007 were put into this coop (probably by accident), mated up, and became the mothers of last year's oops babies. Lou gave me these pairs of birds, and the oops YB and mates for them, and a few other birds I liked). There were Too Many Birds in there, and it was good to move mine to a vacant section.

There are 4 other coop sections, 2 of hens and 2 of cocks. I'm not really sure how many there are in each section; they are the least "tame" of all. Two sections hold Lou's last OB team & their widowhood mates, and the other two are the breeding hens & cocks. The breeders' sections each have their own flypens that are not adjoined, and the coops are separated by a vacant section of breeding cages; the widowhood hens & cocks have an aviary that's divided by 1x2 hardware cloth to keep them from mixing, but could probably bill through the grid if they tried hard enough. 

(whoa, this post grew and grew!)


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Curiouser and curiouser... what a strange wad of worms! 
this one is from about 2:15am Tues









At the other end of the pigeon: Junior has kept down the smaller metronidazole dose, and the nutrical cocktail, and I think may be (more than?) ready to tuck in for the night... I know I am!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


I am just in awe of how this Bird had so many Worms in them.

Looks like things are working...

I am very pleased, and very proud of you.


Possibly Karyn knows - may one give this kind of 'Wormer' again with only a couple days since the Last administration? Or?



The "Spartix'' ( Carnidazole ) was just-a-thought for rotating the Anti-Trichomonal Meds, and, no big deal. It is a good Medicine, and, I sometimes use it, or use the Metronidazole, or use them in combination.

Keep those Worms coming!!


Keep on with the 'Nutrical Cocktails' as you have been...put it in "s-l-o-w" of course, since you are putting it into the top of their Esophagus, and, if there is resistence for any reason below it, it could back up and over fill on you and be possibly very dangerous for the Bird who is not prepared for that, far as their open Trachea is concerned.

With "Mr. Tube", the Tube-end being in their mid or lower Crop, this is not a danger...so the Tube, when done correctly, is both easy, and, very safe for any Esophagal-iffy or other 'Liguid Food' only Pigeon ( and others ).

So, give that some thought, and see if you might want to try "Mr. Tube".

Reherse here in the Thread by running through the procedure.

It will pay off well now, and, by later...since sooner or later, you ( well, the Pigeon anyway ) will need it. 


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv

Lol...

Yipes!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Robin,
> 
> I am just in awe of how this Bird had so many Worms in them.
> 
> ...


Wow, is all I can say, as well.

Phil, I was thinking the same thing, that perhaps tomorrow giving Junior another 0.10cc of the Ivermectin, then in 12 days, one more dose. I personally have never seen a bird with this many worms come out, must be going on the better part of 50. I can now clearly see why things were not moving through this poor little one very well.

Robin, thanks for the very detailed layout of how things are set up at the coop. I think it would be unusual for one bird to be this infected with worms and not have some others infected as well. So I think we really need to look at flock treating ALL of the birds contained within these premises to be on the safe side for them. The way worms are spread is through microscopic worm eggs, these eggs are contained in the droppings of birds infected with worms. Other birds become infected by inadvertently ingesting some of these eggs when infected droppings come in contact with feed, water or them just "pecking" at things as they like to do. Also, when these infected droppings dry up, they now can become airborne, so transmission is possible through any wire cage fencing, plus there is the fact that droppings will adhere to the bottom of someone's shoes, so it can be tracked from one place to the next this way as well.

Robin, with the Ivermectin drench you have, could you do this. Take 1cc of it and place this into some water that is in a small, clear glass and give it a light stir in with a spoon. Does it dissolve completely into the water and disappear, or do you see any tiny beads, almost like oil in water, anywhere in the glass. If you do not see anything, leave it alone for an hour and check it again, and report back.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Karyn & Phil, for all your help and encouragement. I owe you guys a case of beer, at least! 

Here's the overnight production; as I was changing the paper towels this morning Junior pooped another (on the floor, so no pic) like the one on the left.









This morning Junior has had about 5cc of Nutrical cocktail (including Sulmet solution) and I've left her a dish of rehydrating solution w/ Sulmet to drink. I hope that isn't too much Sulmet (I was using the label recommended dilution, not the 2x from the "other" recipe). 

I was expecting to need to worm all the birds at the loft as soon as I saw the first worm -- from other pets, knowing how easily the worm eggs "get around," and I'm sure they are overdue for "routine" worming. Karyn's comment about infected/contaminated dried poo becoming airborne was a heads-up though; since I am a beginner with birds. 

Unfortunately, the Ivermectin is oily and stays oily. There's even a flammabilitiy warning on the bottle.  

What I do have is Permectrin II, and more on the way. I had intended to use it as a coop surface treatment, but there are instructions for adding it to drinking water to flock treat as well as for applying it to surfaces. 

I'd like recommendations on how to time the adminstration of wormer and coop disinfection. I figure it could take several days for the pij to pass all the worms, though I hope & pray that Junior's problem with them is atypical. The floor litter at the loft is corn cob, and we don't have enough on hand to completely replace it in all the coops multiple times...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> This morning Junior has had about 5cc of Nutrical cocktail (including Sulmet solution) and I've left her a dish of rehydrating solution w/ Sulmet to drink. I hope that isn't too much Sulmet (I was using the label recommended dilution, not the 2x from the "other" recipe).


Robin, one of the things that can either take place, concurrently or right after a bad worm infection, is an infection of the digestive tract as a result of the inflammation and damage the worms can cause. The Sulmet will guard/treat this and it has a wide margin of safety, tomorrow we will reduce the dose down to 1 tablespoon a gallon (3.75cc/mL per liter), from the current 1 1/2 tablespoons. If you are using the Sulmet solution to make the 5cc of "cocktail", do not do this more than twice for the day, for the rest just use plain re-hydration fluid (no meds in).



> Unfortunately, the Ivermectin is oily and stays oily. There's even a flammabilitiy warning on the bottle.


I was hoping we would get lucky in it being water soluble, but it is working well on Junior, so let's be thankful for that. The link below is to Foy's for their water soluble Ivermectin drench, item #581. I called and they are in stock for this item, I think you should order it as you have a great deal of birds to treat and it will keep for a long time, especially if kept in the fridge. In the meantime we could treat with the Worm-Out Gel and repeat when the Foy's comes in.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/519-584.html



> What I do have is Permectrin II, and more on the way. I had intended to use it as a coop surface treatment, but there are instructions for adding it to drinking water to flock treat as well as for applying it to surfaces.


I am familiar with this as a contact insecticide, with residual staying power. I unfamiliar with adding it to drinking water to flock treat, please do not do this. You may mean, or might be mixing up, using it in water as a "dip", this where you dip a bird in treated water to kill body lice and mites, but not to drink.



> I'd like recommendations on how to time the administration of wormer and coop disinfection. I figure it could take several days for the pij to pass all the worms, though I hope & pray that Junior's problem with them is atypical. The floor litter at the loft is corn cob, and we don't have enough on hand to completely replace it in all the coops multiple times...


It is very important that all areas where the birds have access to be scraped and well cleaned or what will end up happening, if this is not done, is that birds just become reinfected from old infected droppings. Flock treatment with the with the Ivermectin water drench will be easy enough.

I am still amazed at how many worms are coming out.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update, 12:30pm Tues: 

Junior's had another 5cc of the nutrical cocktail; two more poops similar to the last pic (the one on the left) but with only 2 or 3 worms. I've changed her drinking water to just rehydration solution w/o Sulmet, since that is in the nutrical cocktail. 

Would it be better to give the metronidazole doses at the same time as cocktail, or with some time between? Vomiting has not been an issue yesterday or today. 

I dropped off one of my cats at the vet for dental work today, and on the way home I picked up more Nutrical and the cockatiel pellets at Petsmart, so those are ready & waiting. When I pick up the cat later, I will ask if I can buy Spartrix there. 

Ivomec drench has been ordered (I won't have time to drive up there this week with all the cleanup, so delivery will actually be faster).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Junior's had another 5cc of the nutrical cocktail; two more poops similar to the last pic (the one on the left) but with only 2 or 3 worms. I've changed her drinking water to just rehydration solution w/o Sulmet, since that is in the nutrical cocktail.


OK, but try and keep track of things so Junior is getting/drinking 15-20mL a day of Sulmet treated fluid.



> Would it be better to give the metronidazole doses at the same time as cocktail, or with some time between? Vomiting has not been an issue yesterday or today.


Yes, you can give it at the same time as the Cocktail, I am hoping we have seen the last of the vomiting.



> I dropped off one of my cats at the vet for dental work today, and on the way home I picked up more Nutrical and the cockatiel pellets at Petsmart, so those are ready & waiting. When I pick up the cat later, I will ask if I can buy Spartrix there.


With you having both Metronidazole and Ronidazole, I don't see having Spartrix as a must have, but a nice to have as a backup to the other two. Would only really need it you had a case of canker that was not responding to the other drugs and I am not aware of many stubborn cases that have not responded to Ronidazole. Glad to hear you have the pellets on hand as well.



> Ivomec drench has been ordered (I won't have time to drive up there this week with all the cleanup, so delivery will actually be faster).


Great, you're right on top of things. Robin, I just wanted to thank you for posting all the photos you have, I suspect there are a number of people who are following this thread that find it quite fascinating as to what is coming out of Junior.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Junior's had another 5cc of the nutrical cocktail; two more poops similar to the last pic (the one on the left) but with only 2 or 3 worms. I've changed her drinking water to just rehydration solution w/o Sulmet, since that is in the nutrical cocktail.


OK, but try and keep track of things so Junior is getting/drinking 15-20mL a day of Sulmet treated fluid.



> Would it be better to give the metronidazole doses at the same time as cocktail, or with some time between? Vomiting has not been an issue yesterday or today.


Yes, you can give it at the same time as the Cocktail, I am hoping we have seen the last of the vomiting.



> I dropped off one of my cats at the vet for dental work today, and on the way home I picked up more Nutrical and the cockatiel pellets at Petsmart, so those are ready & waiting. When I pick up the cat later, I will ask if I can buy Spartrix there.


With you having both Metronidazole and Ronidazole, I don't see having Spartrix as a must have, but a nice to have as a backup to the other two. You would only really need it you had a case of canker that was not responding to the other drugs and I am not aware of many stubborn cases that have not responded to Ronidazole. Glad to hear you picked up the pellets.



> Ivomec drench has been ordered (I won't have time to drive up there this week with all the cleanup, so delivery will actually be faster).


Great, you're right on top of things. Robin, I just wanted to thank you for posting all the photos you have, I suspect there are a number of people who are following this thread that find it quite fascinating as to what is coming out of Junior. Also, when you get a chance, I would not mind getting a weight check on Junior.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's the latest, for everyone's horrified fascination... 
It's a good representation of what Junior has been passing for the past several hours









Today's Weight 338g, (those worms were heavy, eh?) 
She wanted to walk around instead of stand on the scale, and half made a token wing slap when I herded her onto the platform...

I just gave her the metronidazole pill chunk (1st of 2 for the day); she'll get another around midnight. She gets more nutrical cocktail in a little while;
I'm giving her only about 5cc at once because that's about all she's willing to hold still for at a sitting.

What should I be looking for by way of changes in poop appearance as the worms are flushed (other than fewer or no worms)? 
Are there any "red flags" (assuming the poops could actually get worse than they are)?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



The Wormer I have kept on hand here, and, used now and then is 'Moxidectin Plus'.

It can be added to the Bird's drinking Water, and is not too hard on the Bird, as some other kinds are.

This might be a good one for you to consider.


I virtually have never seen any throwing-up from Metronidazole...even though one hears of it happening.

I imagine with your Bird, the Worm issue was contributing to a condition where they were already a little touchy as far as their body wishing to throw up, and or anything else it could do, to get those Worms out one way or another, let alone all the toxins and possible nausia the toxin by-products of the Worms would cause.


I think you should call the Guiness Book of World Records for the how-many-Worms division for Pigeons...this might just be a Winner.

Wow...


Well, the image of the poop in Post # 74 appears to show fecal matter from 'Nutrical'.

Her Kidneys and Liver I am sure have been getting over taxed for dealing with worm toxin by-products and complications generally, which may be slowing down what otherwise would be improvements in the appearence of the Urates...but we do see some curdled Urates in some images, and, some slight if irregular 'white-ish' components in others, even if mostly they remain watery or thin instead of 'paste' for the time being.

Fecal matter will of course change with the food kind.



Glad to hear she is feeling better!

I can imagine!!


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, just try and pump her with fluids and Cocktails as much as you can, even if it's every hour or hour and a half, or so for the rest of the evening, go up to 30cc in total. I would really like to get a good volume of fluids in her to help her flush any remaining worms, as well as flush her system, her droppings still appear to me like she could use some more fluid volume.

With her drop in weight you could now give her 1/4 of the 60mg Metronidazole pills you have, so she will be getting 15mg at a time now. Give her crop another good feel, just to confirm there is nothing in there that might have been missed when checking the other day.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, just try and pump her with fluids and Cocktails as much as you can, even if it's every hour or hour and a half, or so for the rest of the evening, go up to 30cc in total. I would really like to get a good volume of fluids in her to help her flush any remaining worms, as well as flush her system, her droppings still appear to me like she could use some more fluid volume.
> With her drop in weight you could now give her 1/4 of the 60mg Metronidazole pills you have, so she will be getting 15mg at a time now. Give her crop another good feel, just to confirm there is nothing in there that might have been missed when checking the other day.


She just had about 6cc of cocktail, and struggled more than ever in the burrito. 
I hope that means she's getting stronger.
Last poop was in the water dish, so no pic...  until now she's been dainty and only pooped in the middle of the paper (water dish is in a corner of the cage).

1/4 metronidazole for midnight dose; OK.

Update 8pm: new poop. I'm not sure if that white bit is a worm or something else. It doesn't look like the other worms. 









And Junior in carrier (with grill open) and her (clean) water dish.








The tan fabric at the extreme left is the heating pad cover. 
The water dish is a small salad bowl that even the cats can't tip over. Unfortunately, that didn't stop me from spilling it a while ago


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, are worms still passing?

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, are worms still passing?
> 
> Karyn


There were one or two worms in the poop before the one that landed in the water dish, but since then, no worms (unless that stringy thing in the last pic is one, but it looks like something else to me, but I'm not sure what).

I just tried to give her more cocktail, and couldn't keep her in the burrito, so we're both taking a break to calm down... this is nerve wracking.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, feel better about the 8:00pm drooping, looks much better in terms of moisture, I think what might be in the dropping is a bit of the white urates, thanks for the worm update as well. Think about the tube again, it's almost like what you are doing, but actually less stressful for the bird. You could do a few dry runs, to get the feel of it. The key is in the holding of the neck and beak (then lift, extend,tilt back), since you are use to doing this hold now, instead of putting the syringe past the glottis, like you are now doing, you would be going to lightly lube the tube with a drop of olive oil, think if it like the syringe, but you are now going to slide it further down, right into her crop. You can rotate the tube/syringe a bit as you are putting it down to make it slide in smoother. Also, you can try a modified version of the "burrito", this is where you stretch the legs right back, like in a "pigeon fancier's hold" so you take the legs out of the equation to reduce the struggling, just make sure you rest her between the valley of your lap with the legs together and have another folded towel under her front to elevate her front angle up.

She looks bright looking, thanks for the photo.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

About 15 mins ago I gave Junior ~10cc of cocktail with the tube...  and was sweating gumballs the entire time  

Afterward, she kind of licked her chops and didn't cough, so I guess I got it into the right place. Now I will let her rest a little while before I put us through it again.  
We're up to 25cc for the day, so far. 

(post interrupted by checking on cat who's coming around from anaesthetic...)

The burrito part is getting more challenging. Either I'm losing my touch, or Junior is too smart by half. 
Though we start out with her legs & feet towards her tail, she manages to squirm enough to get them back under her, no matter how firmly I've wrapped her into the "burrito." 
Here's the poop of the hour: the pic looked stranger than the real thing, so I smeared it, and it just looks like the usual combination of stuff.
At first I thought there was one last worm, but it was just how the light hit it. Is the tan color from the nutrical, or does it indicate something else (please God, not) that needs to be addressed?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Cloth layed across your Legs as you sit.

Center area of the Cloth is lower, being it is over the space between your held-together thighs/knees.

Bird with their Legs straight back against their Tail.

Place Bird facing you, so the his Toes or Feet are just outside the Cloth.

Press Bird firmly on their mid back area, into the 'trough' or hollow center area...making sure their Legs are still straight Back and Feet outside of the edge of the Cloth.

Bring one side of the cloth over, press it against Bird's lower Back area so it is snug there all around that side, which means you pull it toward you a little since the Bird is a tapered form...bring the Other side over snug against his Back the same way, but so no pressure is on shoulders/Crop.

Spigot the Bird vertically between your Legs where-ever there happens to be a sort of good slightly hollow place for it, might be behind knees, might be farther back.

Grasp Bird there that way betwen your Legs as you sit, so Bird's Tummy to Tail area ios what is being held, wrapped as it is in the Cloth.

Once 'Spigoted', fold back any Cloth which is in the way for managing their Beak.


If they get their Feet into the Cloth, is will usually mess it all up instantly with them pushing and wriggling.

If Feet are just hanging outside of the far edge of the Cloth, or, if Feet are over the edge of the Cloth, there will be no pushing, and, usually no struggle, or less struggle anyway.


If the 'pellet' Food will swell and get mushy in Water in a reasonable time, and if the poofy-mush is easily mixed into the Water with a finger tip...you could probably be alright to 'Seed Pop' Pellet Food.


Otherwise, very glad to hear you have made the acquaintance of 'Mr. Tube'..! As has your Bird..! Of course! Lol...


Well done..!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

> ...Toes or Feet are just outside the Cloth... If they get their Feet into the Cloth, is will usually mess it all up instantly with them pushing and wriggling.
> If Feet are just hanging outside of the far edge of the Cloth, or, if Feet are over the edge of the Cloth, there will be no pushing, and, usually no struggle, or less struggle anyway.


Thanks, Phil! That is the other key!
I totally missed the "feet outside" part before, and it makes perfect sense, since the feet have nothing to push against if they're outside (d'oh!) though we didn't have "much" trouble with the feet inside, facing back, until today (guess Junior was getting "fed up" in a manner of speaking).

The first key (for me) was having an extra finger of the hand that's holding the beak pushing the head a little forward from behind, to straighten out the neck, as the guy in the video link Karyn posted was doing. 



> If the 'pellet' Food will swell and get mushy in Water in a reasonable time, and if the poofy-mush is easily mixed into the Water with a finger tip...you could probably be alright to 'Seed Pop' Pellet Food.


I'm not sure I'm following you... do you mean to soften the pellets then "pop" them as the "warmed frozen corn & peas" is done? 
I'll see what the pellets and water will do, and report presently...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, this one's a little different. Made during the hour following the 10cc tube feed, about 11:15pm.








And from about 11:45pm, this similar one.









Pellet report: they don't puff up a whole lot, but disintegrate when poked with finger after about 10 minutes in water.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Thanks, Phil! That is the other key!
> I totally missed the "feet outside" part before, and it makes perfect sense, since the feet have nothing to push against if they're outside (d'oh!) though we didn't have "much" trouble with the feet inside, facing back, until today (guess Junior was getting "fed up" in a manner of speaking).


I may have forgotten to mention that part.


Lol...

It is not easy to describe how to do something!

One will always leave something out by accident.




> The first key (for me) was having an extra finger of the hand that's holding the beak pushing the head a little forward from behind, to straighten out the neck, as the guy in the video link Karyn posted was doing.



I bring my left Hand up from behind their Head...and, I sort of stabalize their Head, so their lower Head is between my left Hand little Finger, and Ring Finger.


My left Thumb then is free to sort of hold their Beak open, once I have opened it with my right Hand, and left Thum.

Left Thumb and left index Finger sort of grip the upper Beak, right Hand, one fingertip or nail end, engauges the Beak tip...to open it...left Thumb end then keeps Beal 'open'.





> I'm not sure I'm following you... do you mean to soften the pellets then "pop" them as the "warmed frozen corn & peas" is done?
> I'll see what the pellets and water will do, and report presently...


No.


I mean, if the food 'pellets' will soften, swell, and then easily dissolve in Water, then they will dissolve in the Crop also.


If they merely soften and swell and do not dissolve, then they are no good for this, under these conditions.


Formula would be fine now, I am sure...if you wished to use it, and or use it via 'Mr. Tube'.


Just trying to give you options, if in fact the 'pellets' will dissolve in Water.


Best wishes!


Keep those poops coming!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Well, this one's a little different. Made during the hour following the 10cc tube feed.



Looks like light Urates...no fecal matter to speak of.




> Pellet report: they don't puff up a whole lot, but disintegrate when poked with finger after about 10 minutes in water.



Okay, well, then they ought to be alright to feed 'dry', and they can soften, swell, and dissolve in her Crop, and, pass on to be digested.


Seince we can not be sure yet that all 'clogging' conditions are over with, it is best to play it safe, and only allow or feed foods which are Liquid, or, which are easily reduced by Water, to be fine particles of small size.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Phil...

Here's a pic of the pellet disintegration results: 








Lefeber's premium daily cockatiel pellets, after about 15 minutes in a small amount of tepid water, poked a few times and sloshed around the bowl once. 
(I guess I should have taken a "before" pic, but figure folks know what pellets look like dry)

If these performed satisfactorily, I would offer them to Junior in the morning, if advisable; I don't think she'd eat them overnight, but might spill or foul them...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Image in Post #81...


Looks like it could be a white 'Tape Worm' ( might not be, but looks kinda like it could be)...do you still have it there to examine and photograph it more closely?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, been out most of the evening, what a nice surprise to come and read. You graduated, well done. I know it's nerve wracking the first few times, but with the amount of birds you have, trust me, you will save some of their lives someday knowing how to tube.

The pellets can be given in the morning, if she will eat them, not too many, 1/2 teaspoon full and let's see how she does through the day with them going through. 

I want to put something on your mind and that is giving Junior another 0.10cc of Ivermectin tomorrow at about 12:00pm. Here's my thoughts, I know you mentioned you thought the Ivermectin you had was strong, but when you mentioned it was 5mg/mL, I realized it was .50%, where many people here, including myself use the 1% injectable Ivermectin, which is twice as strong, 10mg/mL. I, and others most times will give two drops of the 1% (0.10cc), the way you did to the back of the throat. Giving 2 drops of the 1%, would be like giving 4 drops of the .50% (0.20cc), since we have only give Junior 2 drops of the .50% (0.10cc), like giving one drop of the 1%, she could safely have another 0.10cc with no issues I believe. I was a little cautious because I was unfamiliar with the kind you had, so I pretty much stuck by what my reference book indicated for dosage as a result.

Since she was so badly infected it may be prudent to give her a bit more tomorrow to make sure she is fully clear or whatever is currently in her. The reason we re-dose in 10-14 days is to give any eggs that may not have come out a chance to hatch and then flush out any new worms with the second dosing. I can only tell you what I would do if she were mine and I would give mine a bit more tomorrow, think about it and whatever you want to do is fine.

By the way, the last photos look more like what I have been wanting to see, more fuilds and that show signs of bird getting some very light nutrition. 

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Image in Post #81...
> Looks like it could be a white 'Tape Worm' ( might not be, but looks kinda like it could be)...do you still have it there to examine and photograph it more closely?


Just for you, Phil ... I went through the trash and found it. I had already smeared it to see if there was really "anything" in it, so these shots are after it sat around for a few hours... pardon the fingers; the PT didn't want to lay flat after being folded into the wastebasket.









Here's the link to the album, to see them all in sequence I think the forum reduces them from the album size.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I can't tell from the image...

Might have just been some Urates which were semi-formed.

If it was a Tape Worm, it would have unambigious solidity, and, look like those Gum Wrapper 'Chains' Girls used to make in Grammar School...only smaller, much smaller, of course.

You could 'google' Tape Worm and see what they look like.

They are kinda cute, actually.


Karyn's mentions sound good! Worm-Meds again...and 'pellets' Seed-Popped or by pecking, for Breakfast!


Go for the gusto!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

If tapeworms in pij are similar to cat/dog ones, I'll recognize any if I see them.
I don't find them cute at all; I don't know how I got through the past few days without my skin "crawling" a lot of the time...

2am June 30 - A few more worms...like the earlier ones.









Tomorrow, I'll give Junior another dose of ivermectin and the opportunity to peck for pellets (and hope she does) before trying any popping of pellets...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, with this exceptional amount of worms, I think this is wise to do. Remember, do it the same way, around 11:00am (1 hour before) pull her water, an hour later give the 0.10cc Ivermectin, then another hour later you can put back her water, but I would not mind seeing you give her 10cc of Cocktail at this time by tube. Later, if you find she does not want to eat the pellets, if she does not eat them right way, leave them in for her anyway, we can prepared some thin Kaytee for her and give her a few small meals of about 7cc each time, spaced 2-3 hours apart. This will also help flush her out as well as start back some more solid nutrition for her. Continue with the Sulmet, Nystatin ans Metronidazole.

Karyn


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## LovesPijjies (May 21, 2010)

I don't want to derail the thread, but just to say I am horrified at this, I had no idea pijjies could have so many worms, although i have seen massive amounts of tapeworm exiting a poor cat.

The poor pijjie must have been so uncomfortable and I hope it gets better.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Junior is very perky this morning. She gave herself a good shake and ran around the floor while I did her "maid service" (she made 2 more little poops like the one at lower left in the pic) then didn't want to go back in the carrier. 
This is the most poop in a similar period of time, since she's been sick, except when the great gobs of worms were passing. You can also see that she's been preening.









After the cleanup, measured out 1/2 tsp of pellets and offered them. She ate a few out of my hand, but it took her a few tries to get hold of them (since they're not the same shape as seeds?) I guess she decided they taste OK, because she pecked more after the first one. I left the rest in the carrier for her to peck at leisure, and told her that if she eats them, she will not have to be a burrito except for meds... 

I will need to give her the ivomec dose at 11, since I need to be down at the loft early today... 

@LovesPijjies -- I've never seen so many worms either. Thanks for your good thoughts; Junior is feeling much more like herself this morning.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Still see worms in two of the droppings, but they do look like more than just bile droppings. I know it's a bit of a pain to be so slow and methodical with all of this, but I would rather take a few extra days, have her loose a bit more weight, than risk stopping her up, like what happened with Little Bar. Biggest thing is in all of this, is to make sure she is well hydrated, lots of fluids moving through her, as we have enough room with body mass, thankfully, to take the extra time with her. Even if she does eat the pellets, do the Cocktail an hour after the Ivermectin, not only for the nutrition she will receive from it, but to also continue the flushing process.

Good to hear about the preening again and her being perky, sounds like she is making her way back from a very bad place.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

When I went in to take away the water preparatory to the ivermectin dose, Junior had eaten all but 4 of the pellets (and had inadvertently launched one into the water dish). 

I'm _so_ glad she's feeling up to pecking...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, this will be a nice test to see how something more solid will go through her. Hopefully we will see the results in her droppings later today.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn, Phil, or anyone who knows,

The "right" ivermectin I ordered for the flock treatment in their water has arrived... 
I can start today, if that would be a good idea, but I need to know the dose.
The bottle says ".08% solution" and does not give mg/ml info. 
Recommended oral dose for sheep (!) is 3mg of solution per 26lb of body mass.
I could do the math, but I don't know if the dose is linear in proportion to body mass when it is birds cf. quadrupeds.

Please advise! 
(when I get the info I'm going to write it on the bottle so I don't have to ask again).

Also, should they have sulmet in their water at the same time? This would be the 3rd day for it.
The pigeons at the loft all look good; nobody is looking punk.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update: Junior has had a 10cc cocktail an hour after the ivermectin... 
I was less nervous this time, but still apprehensive about hurting her, especially her eyes, when she stuggles. 
She has her water dish of rehydration fluid, but I haven't given her any more pellets yet.

The 1pm poop:


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, thanks for the update.

No, no more pellets until we see that she has processed what she ate before, smoothly with no issues, we are just doing a challenge test on her GI tract right now. Your confidence and technique will improve in the next few times you tube feed her. I am happy you are learning though, good for Junior and good for you. We want 2-3 more Cocktails today, along with what she'll drink on her own and wait see how things develop.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just checking in...


I will see if I can access my Formulary for the 'Ivermectin' ( which is in my other mostly non working computer ).

Looking forward to Wormer-round # 2, and seeing what all comes out...there may well be quite a few hangers-on who shrugged off Round # 1 ( especially as it was a half-dose if memory serve.)

Glad she is preening, ran around a little, and pecked her 'pellets'!



Edit: Got Formulary to come up. Dosage "Pigeon" listed as -

0.2 PO...NL...



"PO" of course means Orally or by Mouth.


Interval of "NL", I do not remember what 'NL' means, but, when used in their Drinking Water, one with-holds prior Water over night, and, lets them have the Wormer-Water come Morning, for a full day, or, for 24 hours, as far as I recall.

I would like for Karyn to have the final say on this soon as she checks in.

While I can iterate a Dosage stated in the Formulary, I do not know the relationship between the concentration the dose represents, and, if this is the same as the concentration the Bottle itself has.


Far as cleaning your Loft, I imagine a good Scrubbing with lots of Soapy Water, using good Bristle Brushes...followed by stout Bleach Water washing, soaking...followed by plain Water rinsing, should do well.

There is no practical way for you to kill the Worm 'eggs', but, you can likely get them to be washed away anyway.

Killing the 'eggs' usually is done with an open Flame scorching them, and, given the construction materials of your Loft, a Blow Torch would not be a good method to use.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just flyin' by with my 2 cents!

What a load of Round Worms! WOW! Poor baby! 

I am familiar with what a Round Worm looks like (then, again, there may be others who are similiar. A tape worm looks very different. They are segmented and until the head is gone, you won't get rid of the tapes! )

Anyway, I had Squeaks' stool checked when he was going through his wing problems and it was negative. But, then, one day there was a _live_ worm in his poop! My Avian Vet swears by Panacur and has pigeons of his own. He prescribed the dosage based on Squeaks' weight and I was to dose three days - wait 3 weeks - and dose for 3 more days. (THANK goodness for Cindy/AZWhitefeather, who helped me!) My Vet said I shouldn't have any problems after that. Squeaks passed about 7 or 8 mature worms and hasn't had a problem since. Of course, the 3 weeks was to "break the worm/egg cycle."

Of course, when I posted about Panacur, everyone practically fainted because they told me about how "rough" it was on the pigeons and there were other products. I happened to luck out and my Vet was very precise about his dosage.

Anyway, just thought I would tell Squeaks' worm tale and you are certainly not alone!! Once those nasties are gone, he will feel sooooo much better!! 

Sending ALL OUR BEST HEALING THOUGHTS with Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and MR. Squeaks


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Robin,

Well, that 1:00pm photo looks like some real solids are in that dropping , so it looks like the pellets are making their way through. You can give her another full teaspoon now for the evening and a few more Cocktails.

Glad to hear the meds arrived, Foy's actually puts the dosing on the page I linked you to to order it, 8cc/mL per gallon for one day for the Drench, then again in 10-12 days. I would be inclined to put the Ivermectin out around noon time, this way they will have time to drink that day and in the morning again to make sure everyone gets dosed, as sometimes you get reluctant drinkers. You will need to dose all of the birds, including Lou's, for things to be on their way to ridding any worm problems for now. Then once things are cleaned up, thinking about about a treatment program of doing this twice a year for them.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/519-584.html

I am thinking for tomorrow to give Junior a teaspoon of pellets morning, afternoon and then evening, along with 3-4 Cocktails and if things go well, the following day to try her on some chopped up sunflower seed hearts and small seeds mixed together, then reassess.

You really are doing so well with everything and so on the ball, it's a pleasure to work with you helping Junior.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Junior had a productive afternoon 
She apparently spent some time preening, as well; the white crumbs in the pic are feather bits








I wish she hadn't tracked it all around, but... 

While she was out of the carrier during Maid Service, she looked around a bit, then flew up to the moulding above the door, and landed on it but had to flap to stay on it (it is narrow). This is the first she's flown, or even tried to, since I brought her into the house. 

She took her cocktail like a champ, only making a token attempt to evade Mr. Tube. And when I set the pellets down, she was on them before my hand was out of the carrier. 
(My hands reek of bleach from _my_ productive afternoon, even after several washings, so I didn't offer the pellets from my hand like I did this morning).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh! Robin!


Please wear elbow length Rubber Goves when using the Bleach or Bleach Water Scrubbings.

It will really dry out and chemically 'burn' your skin otherwise...it just 'pulls' out all the natural Oils and so on, so please, get some long Rubber 'Dish Washer' type Gloves and protect your skin.

Keep a bucket of clean clear Plain Water handy also, just in case you somehow splash any Bleach Water in your Eye, so you can flush your Eye out easily.

How do he know dis????


Lol...


'The Hard Way'


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Please wear elbow length Rubber Goves when using the Bleach or Bleach Water Scrubbings.
> It will really dry out and chemically 'burn' your skin otherwise...it just 'pulls' out all the natural Oils and so on, so please, get some long Rubber 'Dish Washer' type Gloves and protect your skin.
> Keep a bucket of clean clear Plain Water handy also, just in case you somehow splash any Bleach Water in your Eye, so you can flush your Eye out easily.


OK, I have some rubber gloves, guess I'll have to wear them. But wearing them I'll probably be clumsy enough to get some bleachwater in my eye anyway. 
I always have an extra gallon jug of plain water on hand for utility use at the loft, except when it's below freezing. 

If I were Emporess, rubber gloves would be thinner, yet stronger, come in smaller sizes and have longer fingers... 

... no wonder I always have ratty cuticles


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Get the elbow length ones if you can...they are only like three bucks at any grocery store in the cleaning supply isle...and...Scrub-a-Dubb-Dubb!!

It's cool to add a good glug of Dish Washing Soap to the Bleach Water too, stirr it up good to the Soap is well mixed in...helps it work even better.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Glad to hear the meds arrived, Foy's actually puts the dosing on the page I linked you to to order it, 8cc/mL per gallon for one day for the Drench, then again in 10-12 days. I would be inclined to put the Ivermectin out around noon time, this way they will have time to drink that day and in the morning again to make sure everyone gets dosed, as sometimes you get reluctant drinkers.


Thanks Karyn!
When I went to the page to order the ivermectin, I was in such a hurry that all I read was enough to make sure I got the right product...

Should I use a syringe to measure out the dose for the water? For most things I use measuring spoons, but would probably drip/spill less with a syringe.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohhh! Glad to hear about the interest in Flying, and, interest in Eating.


Images of to-day's poops?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You know too, for a Water-Medication for the Catpive Flock...I would even pull their Water the night before...so no Water till the next Day late Morning or Noon, when you present the Wormer-Water and let them have it then for 24 or 30 Hours.

This would help ensure they will drink enough of it.

Just no way to really make sure everyone gets an ideal Dose like that, but, should be close enough to work well.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Poop update: 30 June 8:30pm 








focus is a little soft, but no more worms, so far.

It's dusk (~9:15pm), and Junior is sitting as nesting.
She ate most of the pellets I gave her earlier. 

@Phil - this afternoon's poop shot is on post #105 at the bottom of the previous page. I suspect she got bored and started pacing since it's tracked all around.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Understood...( earlier walk-around poops ).


If Karyn agrees, I think it would be fine to increase amount of 'pellets' and or Tube-Feed-Formula meals now...not a lot, but, maybe by 1/3rd.


I would like to know from you Robin, and, also to know Karyn's opinion on -


- Where are things at with the Metronidazole? And, should we do the Home Stretch with 'Spartrix'?


- Where are things at with the 'Sulmet'? ( I lost track )


- Where are things at with the 2nd Worming of Junior, which was being considered, to follow the first Worming round a couple days gap between..?


That's about all I can think of for now.


Good Going Robin!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Where are things at with the Metronidazole? And, should we do the Home Stretch with 'Spartrix'?


Junior has been getting 15mg of metronidazole twice daily ~12 hours apart
Karyn recommended adjusting the dose down on account of some weight loss -- this evening's weight: 339g



> - Where are things at with the 'Sulmet'?


Sulmet is in the Cocktails.



> - Where are things at with the 2nd Worming of Junior, which was being considered, to follow the first Worming round a couple days gap between..?


Junior had a second dose of ivermectin at 11am today.
Has not passed any more worms (yet?)


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Get the elbow length ones if you can...they are only like three bucks at any grocery store in the cleaning supply isle...and...Scrub-a-Dubb-Dubb!!


With a rub-a-dub-dub and a scrub-a-dub-dub and a rub-a-dub all day long?

I want one of those too! But I haven't seen them. I don't visit the supermarket often though.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Poop at 11! (yeah, I'm getting punchy)









Junior's had another 10cc of cocktail, and when I turned on the light, got up and ate the rest of the pellets, except for a few tiny crumbs.








mmm, pellets!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, Junior has one more day of Metronidazole, I don't think Robin has Spartrix, but does have Ronidazole and we could finish up with that. Robin, what form is the Ronidazole you have in, pills, powder (need strength)?

With the Sulmet, Junior has 3 more days of the Sulmet at the now reduced dose of 1 tablespoon a gallon, and the Nystatin should continue as well until the Sulmet is over.

The updated weight you posted for her is probably somewhat less than that, because of the time of day it was taken,(she has some food and fluids in her to add to her weight). When you weigh her next time, perhaps tomorrow, do it first thing in the morning before she has had a chance to drink, eat or been tubed anything, this will let you be a little more precise with her weight. Whenever you are tracking weight on a bird, this is the time to weigh them each day.

Yes, I don't see a reason she could not get a bit more pellets, perhaps a teaspoon and a half, three times tomorrow, and as I said if all goes well, we'll try her on small seeds and chopped sunflower hearts the next day and soon after that, start her back on her regular seed mix, a full dish to eat as she pleases, provided there are no glitches.

The 10-14 days for the next dose of Ivermectin should be timed from today's date, I am so glad to see she has not passed another worm since this morning and I had to smile when I heard she was up to wanting to fly again, all very good. Looks like things, so far, are looking good for this pretty little girl, her body posture is quite good, by the way. 

Use the syringe to measure out the Drench, it will be more accurate.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> Phil, Junior has one more day of Metronidazole, I don't think Robin has Spartrix, but does have Ronidazole and we could finish up with that. Robin, what form is the Ronidazole you have in, pills, powder (need strength)?



I had forgot that Junior was on 'Nystatin'...

I was wondering "how come those Urates are not come around yet?"

She's probably fine as is, with no need of any other or additional Anti-Protozoans.

It's just going to take her system a few days, once done with the Meds, to get back onto making Urates which are a nice White Paste...so, we can just watch things as they go on that.




> With the Sulmet, Junior has 3 more days of the Sulmet at the now reduced dose of 1 tablespoon a gallon, and the Nystatin should continue as well until the Sulmet is over.



Okeydoke...much obliged for the refresher on where things are at.



> The updated weight you posted for her is probably somewhat less than that, because of the time of day it was taken,(she has some food and fluids in her to add to her weight). When you weigh her next time, perhaps tomorrow, do it first thing in the morning before she has had a chance to drink, eat or been tubed anything, this will let you be a little more precise with her weight. Whenever you are tracking weight on a bird, this is the time to weigh them each day.



I would not have minded if Robin had saved, counted, and weighed all those 'Worms'.


I bet there was 20 Grams worth of Worms there for Pete's sake.




> Yes, I don't see a reason she could not get a bit more pellets, perhaps a teaspoon and a half, three times tomorrow, and as I said if all goes well, we'll try her on small seeds and chopped sunflower hearts the next day and soon after that, start her back on her regular seed mix, a full dish to eat as she pleases, provided there are no glitches.



Junior will be pleased...




> The 10-14 days for the next dose of Ivermectin should be timed from today's date, I am so glad to see she has not passed another worm since this morning and I had to smile when I heard she was up to wanting to fly again, all very good. Looks like things, so far, are looking good for this pretty little girl, her body posture is quite good, by the way.
> 
> Use the syringe to measure out the Drench, it will be more accurate.
> 
> Karyn



Yes...her posture there spoke volumes of her feeling one whole heck of a lot better now.


Well, golly...


Nice to hear...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn,

The ronidazole is en route from Jedd's (they are farther away than Foy's ) and is Medizole powder... 
From the product page: 
Composition: Ronidazole B.P. Vet 10% m/m
Dosage and Administration: Add 5 g (1 level scoop (included)) to 2 liters of drinking water for 3-5 days.

The sulmet has been in the cocktail; do I need to remix, or will it conveniently adjust itself as she gets less cocktail and more pellets and/or seeds?

On weighing... I should know not to weigh a "full" bird if weight is being monitored (just like not weighing a full person), but just happened to think to weigh her when the subject of a dose came up several posts ago.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> I would not have minded if Robin had saved, counted, and weighed all those 'Worms'.


I stopped counting after 60 of them, really amazing. They desiccate pretty quickly once out of the body, so I don't think weighing them could have been done, but there were enough of them that it would have made the scale move.

Robin, I think Phil is saying let's just finish up with the Metronidazole tomorrow, as he now has an explanation why there was still a tinge to her urates and I am good with that as well. When you say "remix" please clarify for me on this.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> It's just going to take her system a few days, once done with the Meds, to get back onto making Urates which are a nice White Paste...so, we can just watch things as they go on that.


I know "sick" changes the appearance of the urates, but only as a general concept (we need a cheat sheet!)... so, what do the different meds to do them?



> I would not have minded if Robin had saved, counted, and weighed all those 'Worms'. I bet there was 20 Grams worth of Worms there for Pete's sake.


eeewww ... 5 worms per gram? 
fwiw, one would have to weigh them "fresh" from expulsion; when they dry out they look like empty shells.



> (Karyn) if all goes well, we'll try her on small seeds and chopped sunflower hearts the next day and soon after that, start her back on her regular seed mix
> 
> 
> > (Phil) Junior will be pleased...


Good thing Junior isn't reading this... she'd be giving me The Look and saying, "wait, I thought _today_ was the day to start on seeds..." 



> Yes...her posture there spoke volumes of her feeling one whole heck of a lot better now


She's giving me sort of a stink-eye; she doesn't like the flash and the chk-chk-chk-chk sound the camera makes as it adjusts focus. Velvet, one of my cockbirds, also doesn't like the flash, and half-wingpops at the camera when it goes off! LOL


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn, I think you counted 60 worms already before that great wad of them that looked like a sci-fi creature... 



Dobato said:


> Robin, I think Phil is saying let's just finish up with the Metronidazole tomorrow, as he now has an explanation why there was still a tinge to her urates and I am good with that as well. When you say "remix" please clarify for me on this.


The Sulmet is mixed in the cocktail at the "higher" dose (I had been putting it in the rehydration solution, but then it got changed to being in the cocktail instead). 
If she consumes less cocktail (and more other stuff), then she gets less Sulmet. 
Unless I run out of cocktail that's already mixed (stored refrigerated, from Phils recommendation the other day), or get instructions to toss it and remix a new batch... 

Who's on First?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, if you are controling the Sulmet dose through the tubing, then just place plain re-hydration fluid in her cage for her to drink. Just make sure her dosing, using the already mixed higher concerntration Sulmet fluid to tube, is 15-20mL (no more) a day, and she will be correctly dosed at the lower dosing rate.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...my thought, was that once she is done with her present course of Meciations, let her coast then, with a progression of graduated Foods as was being mentioned earlier, and see how things seem as her system clears things out from the Meds, and re-adjusts to the not-on-meds-anymore way of things.


If we see anything which may suggest further attentions are called for, we can decide from there.

Milkthistle is good for their little Livers...Health Food Stores carry it in Capsules or sometimes in Bulk...the fine powder kind. It is inexpensive. It can be added to formula if one likes.

Once she is onto tiny whole Seeds again, a very light 'glistening' with fresh Olive Oil ( also helps assimilate available Vitamins) , and any sort of supplimental Powders can be made to stick to the Seeds.

Worms also tend to rob the B-Vitamins if memory serve.

It is easy to open up a people B-Vitamin Capsule, and sprinkle a little onto 'Glistened' Seeds.

Brewer's Yeast is also a good one, but I prefer not to use it too soon after a heavy Antibiotic regimin.


Just-a-thought...


As far as how Meds change their Poops and Urates, it is a parallel to how illness can, if differently, but, both can and do.


Extra Bile in the poos, less bile in the poos...tints to urates of orange or yellow which are of a different origin than tints occuring from illness. Consistency of Urates can be effected.

I do not have a good Color-Wheel for this as for drawing or making co-relations, just something I have noticed.



Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's Junior's over night poop. She had also fouled the water dish. 
As soon as I don't need to give her "special" water, I will start using the little drinker I got at Foy's last week. 
It looks just like the big "bullet" drinkers, but holds about a pint.








While I was tidying up after all this, Junior flew around a little, tried to land on a towel rack and slid off, then landed in the sink, and slipped while trying to walk up the side. 
It never occurred to me that porcelain is slippery to pigeon feet. Then she discovered the bathtub. 
Apropos of which, may she have a bath? She's preening a lot now, and shed a 2.5" long feather.

While I was rereading the last few replies and preparing this one, got an untrampled specimen:









@Phil,
Thanks for mentioning Milk Thistle. I was going to ask about it later since it couldn't go into a totally liquid diet. The caps I have are 175 mg "standardized to 80% silymarin." I have some Exact fomula mixed up and frozen; how much formula should 1 cap get mixed into? 
I'm don't have any B-vitamin caps (I have some combined with other things, but not "solo) but can get some next time I go out. The ones I've had before were liquid or goo inside, which kind are sprinkle-able? 

@Karyn,
If I give Junior just 2 Nutrical cocktails today to get the right amount of Sulmet, and 3 helpings of pellets at 1.5 tsp each, plus as much unmedicated rehydration fluid as she wants, what else does she need for the day's ration?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> If I give Junior just 2 Nutrical cocktails today to get the right amount of Sulmet, and 3 helpings of pellets at 1.5 tsp each, plus as much unmedicated rehydration fluid as she wants, what else does she need for the day's ration?


That sounds about right for the day, things seems to be moving through her nicely and her activity indicates she is feeling a heck of a lot better. You can stop the re-hydration fluid now and replace it with just regular water, so you can start using Foy's drinker immediately, as I think we are by the vomiting worry and the dehydration that it can bring on. You can also put out a shallow pan of water for her to bathe, I am sure she would enjoy the opportunity to start getting herself cleaned up a bit.

Tomorrow, in the morning, if all continues well with Junior, you can give her 1 tablespoon of chopped up sunflower heart and small seeds mixed 50:50, you can do this 2 times for the day and perhaps even a 3rd, if you find later things from the first two went through well and her crop is emptying well, plus two cocktails, one in the midmorning and one later evening.

Also, in a separate dish you can still put a few teaspoons of pellets out for her, throughout the day, as well as the seeds.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I offered Junior a bath, and she took a few sips of the bathwater, then just walked around in it, but at least got her feet clean. 
She'll get another chance to bathe later...










She's a lot more interested in flying, looks around for prospective places to perch, and would really prefer to be out of the carrier, but I can't let her loose unsupervised in the room, for safety's sake...

Here's the poop... 
1pm








3pm


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I expect she will be glad to see some chopped up Sunflower Hearts in her Seed Bowl..!


B-Vitamin suppliment, or the people-kind anyway, will also effect the color of their Urates.

I can't remember right now if Milk Thistle does or not.

Anyway, over-worked and over tired, I was both interested in how her Urates will look after a few days of no Meds, then, instantly, thinking out loud about Suppliments, which in the case of the Bs, will effect the tint of Urates...

Lol...



Reishi is also good...comes as a fine powder in small Capsules.


On the Milk Thistle, usually it comes in a medium size Capsule, and, the contents of one Capsule, mixed with Formula, is fine for one meal. Their systems like it, and that is an okay amount to add to a 10 cc Formula Meal.

Ditto on Reishi.


Turns out Mushrooms, even dried Powder of them, and some kinds more than others, are a really good thing for anyone, Birds or People...they contain things which permit or help complete various discrete and important systemic-digestive processes benifiting the Immune System.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm not familiar with Reishi, but noticed it on Treesa's stickied thread about natural & herbal remedies and supplements. IIRC, she mentioned that one particular type of it was good for pigeons; will find it again so I can make a note and look for it.

So many things to give them... I am making a chart.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, the 3:00pm droppings are starting to look more normal in appearance for droppings coming from a bird on just pellets. I would like you tomorrow, before giving the second round of seeds, to feel Junior's crop to make sure things are moving as well as the pellets are. Last dose of Metronidazole tonight and Sulmet will finish Saturday night with one extra day of the Nystatin (until Sunday night).

Try the bath again in a few days, as she may just not have been quite there yet today to feel like a full bath, maybe just clean feet . The flying and exercise is good for her to get things moving and flowing again, giving her time outside the hospital cage under supervision is good for her.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


Yes, being allowed to fly indoors as she likes now, would be good...good for her circulation, good for cleansing toxins from her system...good for moralle.

How goes the Coop scrubbings?

Phil
Who got 'Heat Exhaustion today...Lol...and it waiting for it to pass...in...
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Evening update: 
Here's the early evening poop pic:









Junior is making a habit of running out to the middle of the floor and pooping when I open the carrier to tidy up. 
She gives me a Look afterward, as if to say "poo on you." LOL 
This one, from about 9:50 pm, almost looks like real pigeon poop! 









Right after her evening cocktail, it took Junior less than 10 minutes to eat all but a few of the 1.5 tsp of pellets I set out for her bedtime snack. 
She also seems to be drinking more water. 
I don't know if that's just a normal recovery thing, if the pellets make her thirsty, or if she just likes drinking out of the mini-drinker.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nice to see and hear today's improves...

Probably all three! ( on the drinking...)


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

Bit like a Jackson Pollock.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Cyreen said:


> Bit like a Jackson Pollock.


LOL, I should frame it and offer it on e-bay... maybe I could get enough for it to buy a sack of seed!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, her droppings are looking much better, so far I am now pleased with the way things are coming along (been waiting for one that looks like the 9:50pm one ). How's her weight doing (weigh her tomorrow morning)? It's a fairly normal thing for them to eat seeds/pellets, then have a good drink right after.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> How goes the Coop scrubbings?


Haven't gotten to the bleach yet, we're still scraping, vacuuming, etc. and my helper was not there yesterday 

I have a question about using the bleach... can we bleach the coops with the birds in the aviaries, if we use solid panels instead of screens to keep them outside (and fumes inside) until it's dry, or do we need to basket them (as if for racing) and take them farther away from the chlorine? They will already be under a bit of stress from the worming treatment.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Morning update: 
Junior weighs 353g this morning, and was dancing around waiting for me to open the carrier when I came into the room.

Poop pic from 3am (poop from between then and now was trampled and some stuck to her feet, so no pic of that).









I let her fly around a little while I tidied up the carrier, and washed her feet (should have done that before she flew  ).

She got 1/4 tsp of small seeds with the morning ration of <pellets; pellets gone in <5 minutes; she's working on the seeds now...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Now those are starting look like droppings a person could be proud of . You've done a wonderful job for her, steady as she goes, we are almost there. Weight sounds good as well.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Now those are starting look like droppings a person could be proud of . You've done a wonderful job for her, steady as she goes, we are almost there. Weight sounds good as well.
> Karyn


Thanks, Karyn (and Phil, when you see this) 
I'm sure I would have lost Junior if "youse guys" didn't have my back...
now all I have to do is build my own loft, real soon now;  Lou's will be closing. 
I've already started a thread in the Loft section, and will be making a pest of myself over there.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Haven't gotten to the bleach yet, we're still scraping, vacuuming, etc. and my helper was not there yesterday
> 
> I have a question about using the bleach... can we bleach the coops with the birds in the aviaries, if we use solid panels instead of screens to keep them outside (and fumes inside) until it's dry, or do we need to basket them (as if for racing) and take them farther away from the chlorine? They will already be under a bit of stress from the worming treatment.



Usually, for serious dis-infecting of objects or surfaces, 1 part regular Household Bleach, to four Parts Water is what would be used.

I do not know what concentration one would use if wishing to destroy Worm Eggs, since the Eggs can probably be quite resistive to things which a Micro-Organism would not be able to resist.

So long as the presumed Loft Floor Worm Eggs are sluiced away, it would satisfy the needs of the Loft, and, place the Eggs then into where-ever the Washing run off ends up.

So, if where the run off goes is not a worry, Soap in the Bleach Water also would be good, for allowing even slightly better Cleaning than without it would have been.

If it was me, I would Box the Birds, and remove them to another place for a few hours, while the Loft is being scrubbed and Hosed out. This will allow you to Scrub with Scrub Brushes, and to use a Hose with a Nozzle that concentrates a good intense Water Stream for really cleaning out crevices or corners and so on...otherwise, the Hose and Water Stream noise and appearence would likely scare them, as well as any Bleach fumes being something one would best avoid for them if possible.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too, untill the Birds have had their 'Round Two' ( or even Round Three ) they may still be passing Worm Eggs...so...

I wonder if it may be best to Scrub now or soon...and, then, to Scrub again once they are done with their regimen.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

It will need a good cleaning after the second course is given to ensure than any eggs shed will be eliminated to prevent re-infection. Easier to do for a few birds, a pain when you have a lot of birds like Robin, but would need to be done to make things safer I believe.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I may have asked this before, but I can't find it ...I'm "pooped" 

May the loft birds have ACV in their water tomorrow, following a day of ivermectin in the water, or should they get plain water, or something else?


btw, a pair in the coop I was cleaning out today are sitting on dummy eggs in a corner on the floor (there are nest boxes, and they have one, but the hen wants to lay the eggs in _that _corner  ) So, I picked up the eggs, cleaned the floor under the "nest" and about an hour later, put down a bowl, replaced the eggs, and they went over and sat on them! 

Junior is doing fine; she asked me for a few extra pellets (same way the cats do... look at dish, look at me... lather, rinse, repeat...) so I gave her 1/4 tsp. as a bedtime snack  She enjoyed the chopped sunflower hearts, but didn't eat the smallest millet-looking seed in the canary/finch mix, just left them in the dish (a heavy glass tea-light holder, just the right size).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, if you would like, your birds could get the ACV in their water, since we are not using it as a "medicine", and more to acidify the water to help modify the pH level in the GI tract you could use a lower level of concentration, I use 1 1/2 tablespoons a gallon to do this, higher levels are more theraputic in nature are used more as a "medicine".

If you would like to, you could do what I've done when bringing back a bird to their regular food and that is you could go through Junior's regular pigeon mix and pick out the larger seeds/corn/peas from it, add some chopped sunflower hearts to it and see how that goes with her, and offer her the pellets as well.

Keep an eye on the droppings at the coop and let us know if you see any worms turning up, you may have to look a little closer as they will start to dry up faily quickly once out of the body.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh yes! delighted to see such nice poops now!

I'd forgot to say!

Lol...


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Keep an eye on the droppings at the coop and let us know if you see any worms turning up, you may have to look a little closer as they will start to dry up faily quickly once out of the body.


I saw worms in the poops in several of the coops before I left the loft yesterday, and collected & disposed of what I could... didn't see any from the birds in the coop I was doing the most work in, but I'm sure there will be some, since about 1/3 of those birds lived in "my" coop a few weeks ago.

I will take a baggie and bring home some of the regular seed mix for Junior, and pull out the peas (I don't think there is corn in this mixture, only the one we used in the winter). She should be delighted; there are safflower seeds in that mix.

She was hungry enough this morning that she stood in front of her dish giving me "looks" instead of running around the floor when I opened the carrier to tidy up...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, as we suspected, worms in some of the other birds has been confirmed. The biggest job, now, and in the next little while, is to try and break the chain of re-infection. Keep cleaning and scraping like crazy, as eggs can last a good period of time on the ground and still be able to re-infect a bird if consumed and we don't want Junior, or any other birds, re-infected if it can be helped.

Sounds like Junior is progressing very nicely, last day today for the Sulmet. When you get a chance pick up a bottle of good quality human grade probiotics from the heath food store, they should come from the refrigerated section, so we can give Junior some after her meds treatment. Get a brand that you would you use yourself, as we will need very little for her, and the rest you can use up.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Cleaned and swept my own Free Fly Free Rove areas today...it's about 400 sq ft, maybe 30 Pigeons presently, and one non-releaseable tiny Ground Dove cutie.

Getting the Swamp Cooler operational also...be nice and cool up there for them now.

Had a funny thing happen...an Egg was in the middle of the floor...couple weeks ago.

I figured it was some young Hen, her Body 'rehersing'... no Nests anywhere near.

Anyway, I just left it...a few days ago, I walk out there, and there is a fresh pipped Neonate sitting in the middle of the Floor, with the two Egg Shell halves.

Egg had been getting rolled wround from the various Floor Birds trotting or Wing wind from others.

Yipes!

Anyway, lucky for everyone, there was a sole three day old 'Ooops' Baby in a Nest, where the 2nd Egg did not hatch, so, tucked this little one under the Hen as a new sibling...so far so good, day 4 or so of that now.

Shows ya how 'warm' it is here...

Lol...

The Two Babys are most of the time not bothering to even be under Momma Hen...she just sits a couple inches from them.


Guess it has been 105, 108, 110 maybe lately...and not much cooler indoors...though the Bird area will be, soon as I get the new Pump hooked up for the Evaporative Cooler up there.


So, just a little small talk, since things have quieted down some on those other fronts.


What do you get for 'warm' there in Pittsburg Robin?


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Junior weighs 364g this morning. 
She likes to toss the seed around (unless it's sunflower hearts or safflower seed), so I'm only feeding her inside the carrier. 
She flies up to perch on the shower curtain rod while I'm tidying up... if only she'd turn around so the poop goes into the tub instead of *splat* on the floor. 








She's definitely bored and wants to go home, though she may change her mind if she finds out Wally has been hitting on all the other hens... but he did that right in front of her too!

The morning poop report: 











pdpbison said:


> Had a funny thing happen...an Egg was in the middle of the floor... Anyway, I just left it...a few days ago, I walk out there, and there is a fresh pipped Neonate sitting in the middle of the Floor, with the two Egg Shell halves.


 Good you found the little one before it got trampled... last year Junior's parents had a nest on the floor (in another coop) and her sib got scuffled out of the nest and trampled before they were old enough to be banded. 



> Anyway, lucky for everyone, there was a sole three day old 'Ooops' Baby in a Nest, where the 2nd Egg did not hatch, so, tucked this little one under the Hen as a new sibling...so far so good, day 4 or so of that now. Shows ya how 'warm' it is here... Babys are most of the time not bothering to even be under Momma Hen...she just sits a couple inches from them.


The younger one is able to compete for food against the older one? Wow!



> Guess it has been 105, 108, 110 maybe lately...and not much cooler indoors...though the Bird area will be, soon as I get the new Pump hooked up for the Evaporative Cooler up there. What do you get for 'warm' there in Pittsburg Robin?


In Pittsburgh, a hot summer day is in the low to mid 90s, but the humidity is high. We've had highs around 90 every day since Friday, lows in the high 60s, and no relief is expected all week. It "might" rain Thursday night or Friday. I wish the climate were dry enough here to use evaporative coolers.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> When you get a chance pick up a bottle of good quality human grade probiotics from the heath food store, they should come from the refrigerated section, so we can give Junior some after her meds treatment. Get a brand that you would you use yourself, as we will need very little for her, and the rest you can use up.


I have never used these (I like yogurt) so I'm not familiar with them at all (and don't even know what they look like). 
Is any particular brand or type recommended above others?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


The Brand I use has always been "Udo's Choice" probiotics...found in small Brown Bottles in the refrigerated Section of Health Food Stores.

There are several kinds, for infants, children, adults, old people...and I usually used the infant one, but probably it would not matter which.

So...how are things going? Junior wise, Loft-scrubbing-wise, worming the Loft wise, and otherwise?


One of my favorite Books, was titled 'Notes for a New Mythology' - by Haniel Long.

In which, one of the short stories, was titled "How Pittsburgh returned to the Jungle."

He was a Pittsburgh Poet and Writer back when, then, he moved to New Mexico I think.



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, sorry, somehow I missed your post from yesterday. Yes, as Phil says "Udo's Choice" would be good, but whatever brand it is, it should come from the refrigerated section.

Junior is looking very well indeed (droppings too), I can't tell you how happy I am for this. She should be off all meds now, add a few drops of very fresh olive oil to her seeds in her dish and then sprinkle 1/4 capsule of probiotics over them and stir in, do this every second day for a week, that's it. Follow-up dose of Ivermectin (0.10mL) on the July 12th and that should about do it for her.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks, Karyn & Phil, for the probiotic recommendation.
If I'm lucky, I can get this at a store that's on the route of my day's errands... 

Junior decided to go for the whole bath today, instead of just washing her feet (walking around in the pan). She's pretty bored, since I have to keep her in the carrier except when I'm in the room with her. This morning she watched me hand-wash the spinning oil out of a hank of yarn, from her favorite shower-curtain-rod perch. 

Karyn, does adding the probiotics to her food for a week mean I have to keep her in the house for another week?  I was hoping she could go back to the loft & her mate soon...
Wally is a player and a cad and doesn't deserve her, but I may already have too many cocks in my flock, and I want to have all bonded pairs, for the sake of peace... 
I've already had to take a lovely mated BC pair off my list, since I don't want the pij to be crowded when they get to my coop. I'll only have space for 30 max... ::sigh::


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, no she can now go back right away if you would like. However, things with the probiotics would need to be adjusted/altered a bit. Inside it's easy to add to her seeds since she is the only one eating them, but to put her back ASAP, you just need to now mix 1/8 capsule into 5mL of water and tube her this every second day, for a total of three times over a week. Sometimes, I might add a 1/4 teaspoon of organic live culture yogurt (plain) to the 5mL of water (plus the probiotics) if they have been on an extended course of antibiotics. Her droppings look good, so you should be fine with a few tubings over the next week of just the "Udo's".

Bet she'll be as happy as all get out to be going home, Wally might have some "splainin'" to do.

Karyn


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Phil,

The loft birds had their 1st dose of Ivermectin on Friday (7/2)... I've been scraping, cleaning, etc as best I can, but most of the coops have "deep litter" floors, and, having removed said litter from 2 of them, and only lightly sprinkling an anti-cocci floor dressing (that actually looks a lot like grit) end up spending a lot of time re-scraping, etc. Is there anything I can treat the floor litter with that will not require completely removing it? 

I have a goodly quantity of Permectrin II to use on surfaces... but not quite sure of the best way to deploy it.

And, the seed they're wasting is appalling! 
They really like to toss it around... and whatever's on the floor becomes rubbish when I tidy up, in the coops that have only a little floor dressing. 
I keep telling Bert not to give them so much, but...  

Figuring out how to move the birds around when I'm ready for the bleach is challenging; at present I don't have any vacant sections to move them to... I may have to just put some in their aviaries with a drinker and tape plastic over the traps & window so the fumes don't get to them out there.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Robin, no she can now go back right away if you would like. However, things with the probiotics would need to be adjusted/altered a bit. Inside it's easy to add to her seeds since she is the only one eating them, but to put her back ASAP, you just need to now mix 1/8 capsule into 5mL of water and tube her this every second day, for a total of three times over a week.


I guess she'll have to stay here; I can't tube her there... 
I don't have an adequate "clean enough" staging area at the loft; running water is across the yard at an outdoor faucet, etc. 

Unless... would it hurt to give everyone in her coop the probiotics? I could mix it with their seed ration every other day.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, let's just tube her once, since she is with you, if you could add a bit of live culture yogurt, like I mentioned, all the better. I really am quite happy with her droppings and I think all will be well with her. Wally is waiting, so let's get her home. Next time you are at the coop, you could give her another 5mL and the probiotics, if not, don't worry my gut is, she is going to be just fine.

With some other things you mentioned to Phil. Perhaps you could check with a tool rental place in your area and see if the have a heavy duty steam cleaner to rent. This should be able to shoot steam into the floor covering at high temperatures, killing things that need killing and sanitizing all the loose material, probably would have hand attachments for nest boxes and other small apaces. Just a thought.

With the Permectrin II, I would be judicious with its use. I would actually like to see you use a product like this one;

http://www.bugspray.com/catalog/products/page28.html

This product is a Pyrethrin concentrate, pyrethrin is the active ingredient used in non-toxic cage bird sprays at and is effective at a very low concentration of 0.03%. This is what I use, as it really reduces my concerns for my guys coming in contact with anything toxic. Check at Lowe's or Home Depot, they just may have something similar at a lower price, just make sure it's is Pyrethrin only and not Pyrethrin and another insecticide(s). By the the way, Pyrethrin is a plant based, more natural insecticide, made from extracts of a plant which is a member of chrysanthemum family.

Karyn




rfboyer said:


> I guess she'll have to stay here; I can't tube her there...
> I don't have an adequate "clean enough" staging area at the loft; running water is across the yard at an outdoor faucet, etc.
> 
> Unless... would it hurt to give everyone in her coop the probiotics? I could mix it with their seed ration every other day.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...of course...don't put Junior back into the Coop untill everyone in the Coop has enjoyed their second round of Worming.

There seems to be no ideal Floor for keeping Birds!

Fall-Through kinds end up harboring germs and bacteria and holding moisture to encourage micro-organisms...Flat Floors dry best, are the most sanitary in that way, but also allow anything on them to contaminate fallen Seeds.


Oye...

"Oxine" maybe, and followed by the Steam idea...


Birds needing to be removed for a short time, can be put into prepared Cardboard Boxes.

Boxes ample enough for comfort...Look-Outs cut into the Box Sides...lined with paper Towels...set somewhere at elbow height, and not lower.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Junior had some sunflower hearts dusted with probiotic powder for her bedtime snack last night. I wonder if the dusting may have been too "generous."
Very green poop this morning... is something weird happening?









I couldn't get a "good" reading on Junior's weight (she didn't want to stand still on the scale) but it was about 365g. 
She took a "real" bath yesterday, without any encouragement... spotted the pan in the bathtub and went in to investigate it. 

Meanwhile, at the loft... Loft birds got wormed on Friday (7/2). Is Monday 7/12 too soon for the second round? 

@Karyn - is there a special kind of machine that makes "dry" steam? 
I'm concerned that with the general humidity level here, the floor litter could stay damp long enough to cause other problems, unless the steam doesn't really get it very wet... 

@Phil - what is Oxine? 
We have racing baskets available to hold birds while we clean up, when we get to that part, would those be OK to use?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, perhaps a little too generous with the probiotics, but she should be fine, no more for now, weight is quite good, teaspoon of ACV per liter of water is still good for her right now.

Most steam machines, from my understanding, are really not meant to "wet" things but deliver a stream of fine particle sized high heat steam, which is meant to evaporate fairly quickly, to clean and sanitize things. Make some inquiries and see what the people who rent them can give you, with regards to feedback, to address your concerns.

Here is some information on Oxine. http://www.atozvetsupply.com/OXINE-p/40-oxine.htm. Oxine is really just activated sodium chlorite, this is where citric acid crystals are added to liquid sodium chlorite and the result is chlorine dioxide (Oxine). It will off gas some chlorine gas, not as bad as bleach, but the birds should not be around this solution as well when using. I have some here, but I have now gone almost exclusively to using Virkon-S for all disinfection procedures around my coop, it is extremely effective, does not off gas, so I don't have to worry about moving my birds, and almost no toxicity to any residuals.
http://www2.dupont.com/DAHS_EMEA/en_GB/products/disinfectants/virkon_s/index.html , many farmer's supplies and feed stores stock it.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> Robin, perhaps a little too generous with the probiotics, but she should be fine, no more for now, weight is quite good, teaspoon of ACV per liter of water is still good for her right now.
> 
> Most steam machines, from my understanding, are really not meant to "wet" things but deliver a stream of fine particle sized high heat steam, which is meant to evaporate fairly quickly, to clean and sanitize things. Make some inquiries and see what the people who rent them can give you, with regards to feedback, to address your concerns.
> 
> ...




I am pretty sure one would not add any Citric Acid for these applications.

Used plain, diluted with Water...there are no fumes to worry about.

Add the Citric Adic, fumes are very 'dangerous'...


Probably be best to read up on it.


Household Bleach, in the usual dilute with Water, saturating all the stuff inside the underfloor, would probably be good enough, or, as good as it is going to get, anyway.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Update...

Junior is "back home" this week, and she and Wally have an egg. 
There will be an egg swap tomorrow... 
Several other hens have attempted to hook up with Wally, but he has been a good boy and has been throwing them out of his nest box. 
Doesn't stop him from flirting out in the aviary, though. 

After Junior's follow-up worming treatment, no worms. (yay, I think).
However, a few worms turned up in the coop after the rest of my pij got their follow-up, so I guess they'll be getting another follow-up next week.  

The rest of Lou's pigeons departed to be sold at a general auction today. My heart is heavy about this...
I hope that if they end up someplace that's Not Good for Pigeons, they will escape and come back... I'll figure out some way to get them to good places.
Fortunately these birds actually got their follow up worming (some were sold before it was time for it so those will have to do the best they can... )


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



Wow...heavy transitions.


Glad to hear all is going well with Junior!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, glad to hear all is well with Junior and on her home front, I don't think I will ever forget the amount of worms that came out of her, so no more worms is a very good thing indeed .

With worming, make sure you follow the dosing schedule (12-14 days after the first), as the reason for this is that this gives enough time for any latent eggs to hatch and then be taken care of with the next dosing of the worming medicine.

I will say a little prayer that all of Lou's birds find good homes and are happy wherever the end up.

Karyn


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