# Difficulty breathing - Baby pigeon - Air bubble around chest



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

There is swelling around his neck and crop and he has difficulty breathing.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ante, the photos *don't* look like a ruptured air sac to me, I have emailed Pidgey and Dobato to have a look they might be able to identify the cause. In case it helps this is how Terry once described a ruptured air sac:

_The skin will look stretched and transluscent. If you gently press the bubble you should hear a faint crackling sound, a small indentation will appear for a few moments then disappear._

and* this *is the latest thread that we gave had on the subject, it also has photos of what it would look like if it was a ruptured air sac,

If the baby is older than 6 days check for canker.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*This* is a thread about what to do if there is air in the crop.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, I myself have never had to deal with a ruptured/leaking airsac, that being said, I agree with Feefo, that from the photos, it does not like this condition to me either. The neck/crop area seems a little too symmetrical, where as most of the photos I have seen of this condition, the neck area usually looks asymmetrical, more pronounced bulging on one side over the other. Although the photo in this link is a chick, this is more what I would expect to see in a ruptured/leaking airsac in this area: http://www.worldpoultry.net/chickens/breeding/breeders/rising-pressure-from-air-sacculitis-6961.html

Is it because you are feeling that the area in question is full of air? Crops can fill with air for a few reasons such as gulping air when eating and from sour crop as well and other infections. Can you describe, in detail, what the bulge feels like when you gently palpitate it? Also, was this sudden onset or did it develop over a few days? What to the droppings look like? What are you feeding and how often? The difficulty in breathing you mention, are there sounds associated with it, wheezing, wet sounds or rattly sounds?

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't have a lot of experience with the baby pigeons this young; This was a total surprise (only happened once before). I've been replacing new eggs with old ones but something went wrong. This afternoon I was checking if one of the females laid a new egg but found this baby under her instead. The mother tried to fight me away; so I am concerned that she might have injured the baby. Maybe what I'm seeing and feeling is just a full crop, and he was opening and closing his beak as he was breathing because he was full. I only had him out there for a few minutes. His mother did go back in the nest but she is not sitting on top of him anymore. Maybe the best thing to do is to leave them alone. What do you think?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Picture-wise, there just anything to say that something's wrong. If their parents are good, they almost always look that full. Yes, they occasionally open their beaks like that. Don't know what to tell you--there's often not a lot of difference in the look of a chick that's sick and one that's well. You're just going to have to keep a close eye on him. For what it's worth, a chick that's full of seeds (you can see them through the skin around the crop if you shine a light on it) sleeps quite a bit.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> Picture-wise, there just anything to say that something's wrong. If their parents are good, they almost always look that full. Yes, they occasionally open their beaks like that. Don't know what to tell you--there's often not a lot of difference in the look of a chick that's sick and one that's well. You're just going to have to keep a close eye on him. For what it's worth, a chick that's full of seeds (you can see them through the skin around the crop if you shine a light on it) sleeps quite a bit.
> 
> Pidgey


Ante, I agree with what Pidgey has said, as I was thinking the same thing, after reading what you wrote, to just closely monitor things for the next little while. If the parents are healthy and doing well, I would let them continue on with raising their little one. You can always step in quickly if you truly feel things are amiss at any time.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And if you WERE to step in, you'd be initially looking for canker and treat for same. If there were no signs of canker, you'd probably go with a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo on a chick that small. Never hurts to have the weight known and the dosage all figured out and ready to go just in case.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> And if you WERE to step in, you'd be initially looking for canker and treat for same. If there were no signs of canker, you'd probably go with a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo on a chick that small. Never hurts to have the weight known and the dosage all figured out and ready to go just in case.
> 
> Pidgey


Yes, I agree again with this.

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks! I am going to leave them alone right now; I am afraid if I interfere too much, parents might stop feeding and abandon her.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Karyn and Pidgie! 

Your posts reminded me that I once let a baby pigeon slightly overfill his crop (he had been half starved for a week) when using the syringe and balloon method and he breathed with his mouth open for a while afterwards but he was fine after a few minutes.

Ante, I hope your baby is better now.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feefo said:


> Thank you Karyn and Pidgie!
> 
> Your posts reminded me that I once let a baby pigeon slightly overfill his crop (he had been half starved for a week) when using the syringe and balloon method and he breathed with his mouth open for a while afterwards but he was fine after a few minutes.


Same thing used to happen to me on a fairly regular basis (eating too much) with somewhat the same result although it usually took more than a few minutes for me to start feeling better...

...more like _hours_!

Pidgey the Plump


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

But it was a good feeling before it got better!


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I just checked his throat. He has canker. I have Spartrix 10 mg and Meditrich (Metronidazole 100 mg). He weighs about 125 g. I think half a Spartrix pill should be OK? I have to act fast because he is having difficulty breathing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

1/2 a spartrix would be fine. If you don't see results in a couple of days, I'd switch to the Metronidazole. I have had better luck with it.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I crushed 1/2 pill in water and put it down his throat with 1 ml syringe. Some of the liquid flooded his throat. Now I am worried that some of it may have gone into his lungs. How likely is this?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You also will need to treat the nest mate as well. And the baby is getting the canker from its parents. They should be treated also, or they will just keep re infecting him. You can treat them at night when you treat the babies, and hopefully the medicine will have pretty much worked it's way through their system by morning when they start feeding the babies again. Be sure to check his throat closely each day. I had a baby with so much of a blockage from the canker that the feed the parents were giving them was getting caught in her throat, and blocking it further. I had to pull her and hand feed her myself. The rest of the flock should be treated as well. I really do have more luck with Metronidazole than Spartrix.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It does happen. Could you not put the 1/2 pill down his throat just by putting it at the back of the throat and pushing it back? They will usually swallow it.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

There is only one baby. The other egg did not hatch. I just gave one Metronidazole tab to each of the parents. I couldn't see any sign of canker on them. The baby has a huge lump bellow his beak, felt from outside. It is blocking the food. There was food stuck in his throat.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't understand why is he having difficulty breathing? His "breathing opening" is clear and open? Makes me think that some food or water went into his lungs. There is wheezing sound coming from his lungs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You may have gotten water in there. Maybe he'll be okay. Don't give him any more pills that way. Give the same time tomorrow, but in pill form. Just push it to the back of his throat. Did you get all the food out? If the seed is getting blocked, you will have to bring him in and hand feed him.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, I would go with the Metronidazole. Divide one of the 100mg pills into 4, then divide one of the 1/4 pieces in two and pop this down his throat, this will 12.5 mg and you will give it to him once a day and do the same for the sibling, doing this you will not have to worry about aspiration issues. With the parents, not sure how you are set up, but late night, either just before lights out (or even turn them on for a minute) give each of the parents 1/2 pill once a day, 50mg, and then lights out again. You want to do this so the Metronidazole goes into their system overnight and you are not giving them any during the day where they may regurgitate what you have given them to the babies when feeding, hence double (or more) dosing them.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ante, the breathing difficulty is most probably caused by a canker nodule in the oesophagus pressing against the trachea.

Babies that age could only get a canker overload large enough to cause infection from the parents, this could be caused by stress but it is best to treat them as if there was visible canker.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Ante, I would go with the Metronidazole. Divide one of the 100mg pills into 4, then divide one of the 1/4 pieces in two and pop this down his throat, this will 12.5 mg and you will give it to him once a day and do the same for the sibling, doing this you will not have to worry about aspiration issues. With the parents, not sure how you are set up, but late night, either just before lights out (or even turn them on for a minute) give each of the parents 1/2 pill once a day, 50mg, and then lights out again.
> 
> Karyn


My understanding is that the correct dose for an adult pigeon is one Meditrich tab per day as per instructions on the bottle. This is what I gave the parents last night as I wrote above. The baby is almost half the weight of an adult (125 g); so, shouldn't I give him about 1/2 a tab?

Do I need to continue treatment with parents or is one tab for each of them enough?

Also, there are "pigeon flies" on him. I removed some from him but there might be more of them in the nest. Do you think it's OK to put some Zodiac Flea&Tick Powder in the nest?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, the Meditrch calls for a one time dose of one pill (100mg), I am personally of the opinion that it may be better to treat with a lower dose over a more extended period of time, 3-5 days (for resistant or severe cases it could be as long as 7-14 days). The dosing I suggested for the little one, and parents would be given for this period of time. Now that you have given the 100mg to the parents, I myself would give them 1/4 pill (25mg) a day for the next 3 days to keep the med in their system for an extended period of time.

The Zodiac Flea & Tick Powder is a Pyrethrins based treatment, and not only would I dust the nest, I would cover the head of both parents with a small cloth, so they don't breathe any in, and dust them as well and I would lightly dust the little ones too, covering their head with a cloth. Not sure how many birds you have in right now, but it may be a good idea to treat all.

With the ill baby, I may even be tempted to add in a 3-4 day course of treatment with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa mentioned earlier (6mg, twice a day) to make sure we are covering all our bases.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You can give the two concurrently. Spartrix and Metronidazole. I do this regularly now because I have found that there's a resistance to Metronidazole developing in canker. This I was also told by my avian vet.

You can also do this double with Spartrix and Ronidazole (Ronisec).

Here's the thing....you wanna liquify the Spartrix pill...because you don't want it to tear a lesion as it's going down the throat and into the crop. I usually crush the pill and put it in a 'pasty' suspension of water...not much, maybe .5cc. The other advantage of this is it leaves some 'paste' topically on the actual lesions in the mouth and throat, while the med absorbs...which isn't a bad thing at all.

In the case of a baby, I would only use 1/2 pill per day. Wait minimum 1 hr. between Spartrix and Metro. Metro or Ronidazole is usually given 2x/day.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Jaye, I am not clear now what would be the dose for Metronidazole if I give him also 1/2 pill of Spartrix per day? I know that Metro is not water soluble so if I give him half a pill it may also tear a lesion?


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I just gave him 1/4 tab of Metro; had to push it down his throat with a cotton swab. There was some blood on the swab. He is breathing very heavy with a lot of wheezing noise and there is a lot of saliva in and around his beak. The only antibiotic I have right now is Respire from Jedds. Do you think I should give him 1/2 tab of it?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, there are no indications so far that what he has is resistant to Metronidazole and will need combination treatment with more than one canker med at a time, I would just use the Metronidazole alone right now with him. I myself think that 1/2 (50mg) for one so young and weighing only 125g is high, I would dose what I recommended before 1/8 pill (12.5mg) twice a day. Since there is some obstruction in his throat, I would not use part of pills or push anything down the throat again with a Q-Tip, for fear of dislodging a lesion and have him bleed to death, I would crush a pill up (100mg) and add it to 2mL of pancake syrup and you will have a 5% Metronidazole suspension to dose with (50mg/mL) and you can give him 0.25cc (12.5mg) twice a day of this, (this is roughly 5 drops). Just place a drop or two at a time to the front of his mouth and let him tongue it down.

The Respire is a Doxycycline based antibiotic and it has 15mg per pill, 1/2 a pill would be too high a dose for him (7.5mg would be an adult size dose). With the wheezing you describe, although this may be cause by the canker, it may be prudent to treat him as well with the Doxycycline, but I would use 1/4 pill (3.75mg) and dose once the first day. To get the first dose into him you could crush up a 1/4 pill add it to 0.50cc of water and slowly dose it to him by mouth.

To simplify dosing you could when crushing up the 100mg Metronidazole pill mentioned before, you could crush up a Respire pill 15mg along with it and dose the amount mentioned before for the Metronidazole 0.25mg, this will give this little guy 1.87mg of Doxycycline each dose as well.

Ante, when you get a chance you should order in some Bird-Sulfa (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) by Thomas Lab (do a Google search, lots of places sell it). This may be the single most versatile and effective antibiotic, if you had to chose one, to have on hand.

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks! The lump is almost gone but he is still gasping for air; opening and closing his beak with each breath and making wheezing and rasping sound each time. So, I don't know what is going on? by the way both parents are PMV survivors free of symptoms.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Rasping sounds generally come from much deeper in the bird. If you have a stethoscope (Pediatrics are best) then you can listen around on the little guy and see what kinds of sounds you're hearing a little better and possibly get a better idea where they're coming from. Those sounds aren't likely to go away too quickly because that tissue down in the airways doesn't fix itself very fast. Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Could be as Pidgey says, but another possibility to consider would be from the night you thought he might have aspirated some of the first dose of meds and water you gave him and has developed a RI. Continue with the Doxycycline you have him on, do you think you could call around tomorrow in your area for the Bird-Sulfa, and while not quite as good as the Bird-Sulfa (Trimethoprim/Sulfa), you could try a few tropical fish stores in your area to see if they have Triple-Sulfa by API and we could add either of these into the treatment in case the Doxycycline is not covering well for this possible infection.

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Just want to say that I appreciate very much all of your help. He is much much better. I am continuing with the canker med and respire for couple more days. I hope I didn't over medicate him but I was worried that he might suffocate; his breathing was really bad. I got some Sulfamethoxazole but I don't think he needs it now; besides, I was told that it is not recommended for respiratory ailments while Respire is.

I am a bit concerned that his parents might abandon him. They've been gone most of the time. Last night they didn't come back until 8 o'clock and left this morning.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, thanks for the update, I am so glad to hear that he is feeling better and is responding to treatment. Sulfamethoxazole is almost never recommended a stand alone antibiotic, (unlike sulfamethazine sodium the active sulfonamide in Sulmet) but in combination with Trimethoprim. If you did get Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole (TMP/SMX) it is a first choice medicine for pneumonia and other lung infections, so I am not sure if I agree with who ever told you that is not recommended respiratory infections.

http://www.petcarerx.com/pcrx/HealthGuide/Medications/Medication.aspx?mid=11762

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you for the info. I got Sulfamethoxazole from my vet. I did not speak to him directly but this is the antibiotic he usually gives me. I think most likely it was just the canker and it seems to be all gone. I can't see or feel anything and he seems to be breathing normal now as far as i can tell. Still opens his beak slightly sometimes with the breath but the noises are gone except he is starting to squeak for food. Only thing; his beak is minutely scissored. My main concern right now is whether he is getting enough food from his parents. They seem to be starting the mating ritual and looking for a new nest already which I believe is not suppose to happen this early?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> They seem to be starting the mating ritual and looking for a new nest already which I believe is not suppose to happen this early?


Ante, when you first posted it was on Feb/20th and your little guy looked to be 7-8 days old then, it's 7 days later, which means he is about 15 days old, so it would not be unusual for them to be thinking about starting a new nest. Just keep an eye on things, most times things work out fine.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, that timing sounds about right--two weeks in to start the new nest. The father starts picking up on taking care of the young at this point and it gets to where he's the only one after the hen really starts sitting in the new nest most of the time.

You really had me worried on this one, I'm SO glad to hear how much better he's doing!

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you! That makes me feel better. I just climbed up to check things out. His mother was in the nest and his father outside. He was hiding under his mother so I couldn't see his head, but I couldn't hear any sound and his body was moving only slightly with the breath so I think all is well. Tonight, when I give him one of the last couple of doses of the med, I'll look at him more closely. I am quite amazed how fast that huge canker lump has cleared up. Thanks again for all your help!


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