# New Baby - Advice Needed



## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear pigeon lovers,

Dena ( I have been spelling her name wrong all this time, sorry ), a friend and the vet's assistant, gave me a baby pigeon on Sep. 4th. She said it was about 2 days old, but looked a little older. I have decided, since, to assume her bith date as late night on Sep. 1st, just to make the counting of her age easier.
She is about a week or 8 days old today. She is eating and eliminating well, and seems to be very healthy. She eats from the cut-off syringe. I have tried the nipple but she does not want to stick her head in it. ( I have tried it at least a few times.) So, I went back to feeding from the syringe.
I don't know if it's a big problem, but, she swallows air and I can see it around her shoulder right by the bend of the wings on her back. I do tilt the syringe when feeding and try hard to not let her swallow air, but she does. I make her in a upright position and open her beaks, rubbing her gently, and it works sometimes, but not other times.
Is there a better way to resolve this problem? Or is this a problem, to have air in her after eating. I never saw this happen with Peep and I don't remember well enough if I had never paid attention to this before with him.
She does not seem to be bothered by it at all, but it worries me some.
Demi


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I'm not sure exactly what you are seeing.

It is a problem if the *crop *becomes inflated with air, but I seem to recall that Cynthia (Cyro51) and maybe another member posted about two little 'bumps' on the shoulders which become inflated on very young pigeons when they are fed.

Could that be what you mean? 

Will ask.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,

This is the thread that John refers to, as the crop fills with food then two little lumps on the shoulder fill with air. When that starts happenning the baby has had enough.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=23065&referrerid=560





> Quote:
> HOW DO I TELL MY CHICK IS FULL AFTER A FEED?
> 
> The crop should be nice and rounded it should be quite noticeable that there is food in the crop it should feel spongy. Small bubbles should appear each side of the neck once you see these the chick has had enough to eat. These get harder to see as the chick gets older but by then you should have it under control. If you have feed too much the crop will feel hard. The crop is the buldge that forms in front of the chick after a feed.
> ...


You have to scroll down to post 44 for the photo.
Cynthia


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Have you tried this method? 
http://picasaweb.google.com/awrats3333/BabyFeeding#

I've fed around ten babies using this way, and never had a problem with one learning it immediately. And, as you can see in the pictures, it makes it very hard for them to accidentally swallow air; the syringe full of formula is held upright, and the only air in it is at the top of the syringe as the formula gets eaten. Give it a try and see if it helps. You can also use a piece of cloth over the end of the syringe instead of a rubber glove; I tried the cloth recently and it works very well too. Good luck!


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*air bubbles*

Thank you for the helpful information.
Now I don't have to worry about those air bubbles any longer.

I have learned that some birds feed their babies by dropping the food into the babies' mouths, and others like pigeons and doves, etc., feed their young by letting them stick their beaks into their mouths. ( I had been thinking, wrongly, that, they go through different stages being fed differently.)

I wanted to simulate what the parent would do for the baby pigeon ( or dove) I have. So, I tried the nipples again. This time, maybe because she was so very hungry, she went for it, sticking her head deep into the nipple, after I guided her head toward it. I did have to refill it a couple of times, though, the nipple used being so small. Now she would be needing a bigger one.

How long do you usually keep your hand-raised babies on a heating pad?

Can a 10 day old pigeon maintain her own temperature in a small bowl lined with a small towel in a room temperature of about 72 - 73 degrees F.? ( It is covered with a bent cardboard roof which is also covered with a towel to give it privacy.) Demi


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Once they are fully feathered they don't need a heating pad anymore.

Reti


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*more questions*

Is there a way to tell a boy pigeon or dove, from a girl one?

Isn't there a slight bump or a protrusion that you can detect with nakid eyes on a boy pigeon, or a small opening or crack on a girl, at as an early age as a few weeks old?

I am not only very curious but also I would like to give my baby the right name. I was thinking 'Princess' for my little pigeon or dove, but my husband started calling her, 'big bird' because she is so small.

She is brownish all over except for some white spots here and there, and the tail feathers. As you can tell, I don't even know if my baby is a pigeon or a dove, either.

Any help is welcome!! I will be able to send in some pictures soon. Demi

PS Thanks, Reti, for your answer.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,

I used to think along those lines, in fact I asked my vet whether the preen gland was some sort of reproductive organ. 

But I am fairly certain that I am right in saying "it" all happens through the cloaca. The male "ejaculates" (if you like) the sperm into one of the chambers of the cloaca (the urodeum, into which the urogenital ducts open), one pigeon mounts another, they twist their tails aside and touch vents as the male expels the sperm from his cloaca and it enters the female's cloaca... THis is often called cloacal kissing. From there the sperm makes its journey to wherever the egg is fertilised ( in hens the left genital duct is the oviduct). There are no reproductive organs that are visible externally.

This is a link to what looks like a very informative article with photos (I have mislaid my glasses again and am just about managing to read some things with a desperate squint)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/malereprodtract2.gif&imgrefurl=http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/avianreproduction.html&h=517&w=402&sz=9&hl=en&start=1&usg=__6feraI82QPqg4KWfEhwmc-vlDZo=&tbnid=r6f6hJGtykcPyM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=102&prev=/images%3Fq%3Durodeum%26hl%3Den

Cynthia


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Thank you*

Boy there is so much information in this!!! And most of it is so technical, I have hard time understanding.

It's too bad that we can't tell their gender just by looking.

I have a feeling that our baby will end up being called, 'big bird', instead of 'Princess'!

I am near-sighted too, and have very hard time reading anything that's farther than 5 or 6 inches from my face!! 
Demi


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Demi,

This little one is SUCH a cutie pie!!! I'm only too glad to share the pictures with everyone:
























** Demi tells me she was advised not to let our puppy get close to her. So, after these pictures were taken she stopped letting them be friendly to one another.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*more questions:*

Dear Pigeon-Talk friends,

I don't remember very many things from the first experience, and I need your help.

My baby ( probably ) dove is eating more and (maybe because of it?), she doesn't show as much enthusiasm at next feeding. Should I have longer interval between the feedings, as she gets older? How much seeds should be available for her to eat and when? Should it be near her all the time? 

I still do have the conversion food ( formula ) which I crush into smaller bits, mix with the seeds to give her, but don't know exacty how much of it I should be giving her at this time. How long should the baby bird formula be her main diet? She is eating 15 to 20 ml. of formula now. When ( and I have to do it very soon ) I transfer her to the bigger cage, should the seeds and water be available in it at all times, like caged pet birds? Or take her out to feed her only at certain times? I still intend to let her be free to fly when the time comes, although I will make the kennel (which will be her aviary) available for her to live in if she wants to.

She spreads her wings very often now, as if she is going to fly. Should I be letting her exercise flapping her wings like I did with Peep? I can't remember at what time I was supposed to do it. She isvwalking all over inside her basin and pecks at seeds, but it seems very little actually makes into her mouth so I do help her by holding her in my hand and put seeds in my other hand to let her peck. She is not very good at drinking water from a small container yet.

I make a little nest for her to sit in inside the basin, using a small bowl with cotton rag in it. She does try to poop outside but misses sometimes, and so I make the nest with clean material as needed. She looks very grown up when she sits in it and looks comfy and cozy; it's hard to believe she is only 15 days old.
Demi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You should only feed her when the crop is empty, how ever long that takes. When the crop is empty you can try to entice her with the seed by playing with them and moving them around with your fingers.

Seed should be available to her at all times in a deep dish. 

The amount you are feeding each time, seems like a lot to me for a dove.

Let her practice flapping her wings when she wants to. It will strengthen her muscles.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, the beak looks very "pigeonish" .. the body looks very "Mourning Doveish" .. IF this is a dove, then 15-20 ml per feeding is way too much .. about 1/2 would be the max per feeding. Since the little one "must" be taking 15-20 ml .. maybe it is a pigeon .. don't know .. more pictures would be helpful.

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If she isn't drinking, do you guide her beak into the dish of water, holding her beak gently on each side? Not so deep that her nose goes in.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> Dear Pigeon-Talk friends,
> 
> I don't remember very many things from the first experience, and I need your help.
> 
> My baby ( probably ) dove is eating more and (maybe because of it?), she doesn't show as much enthusiasm at next feeding. Should I have longer interval between the feedings, as she gets older? How much seeds should be available for her to eat and when? Should it be near her all the time?




If you work with her...she can be pecking now...and once self-feeding, you can then simply gauge how much tiny whole Seeds you let her eat...while continuing to do a few formula feeds each day for a while yet.


As Terry mentions...we can not tell 'what' this is...if it is some kind of Dove, or an odd Pigeon or a cross-bred Dove-Pigeon, or...


How much a 15 day old any-kind-of-Dove or Pigeon 'Squeaker' can eat...is just really hard to say...since what the food is, and how fast they process it, and what the individual's Crop can comfortably hold...are all judgements one makes in careing for the Bird be seeing and observing that individual Baby.


And too, everyone will say different things, or various people have differing opinions.


More pictures would be helpful...definitely...and borrow a good digital Camera to make them...the cell phone camera or whatever it was is too poor a resolution.

Have a pack of Cigarettes or something of definite scale close to the Baby for the Pictures.




> I still do have the conversion food ( formula ) which I crush into smaller bits, mix with the seeds to give her, but don't know exacty how much of it I should be giving her at this time. How long should the baby bird formula be her main diet? She is eating 15 to 20 ml. of formula now. When ( and I have to do it very soon ) I transfer her to the bigger cage, should the seeds and water be available in it at all times, like caged pet birds? Or take her out to feed her only at certain times? I still intend to let her be free to fly when the time comes, although I will make the kennel (which will be her aviary) available for her to live in if she wants to.
> 
> She spreads her wings very often now, as if she is going to fly. Should I be letting her exercise flapping her wings like I did with Peep? I can't remember at what time I was supposed to do it. She isvwalking all over inside her basin and pecks at seeds, but it seems very little actually makes into her mouth so I do help her by holding her in my hand and put seeds in my other hand to let her peck. She is not very good at drinking water from a small container yet.
> 
> ...




More pictures...


And...work on her learning to peck...

No Seeds or Water in the Cage yet...


What makes all this about impossible any time it comes up...is that unless the caregiver can know what a comfortably full Crop looks like, for the actual Baby at hand, for whatever size Baby or Dove or Pigeon Baby...there is no way to say how much to feed...sae size same age Babys can havedifferent Crop capacities...and or over days, their Crops can enlarge or contract according to feeding-volume History.


Seeds in the Crop hydrate there and expand...so, Seeds in formula or Seeds dry, one has to imagine the Crop with those Seeds expanding as they hydrate...


As long as the Baby has some food in his Crop..and is digesting well...then that is fine...no need to fill till 'full'...just keep things so it has some food in there.



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Thank you for your reply, everyone!*

I do check to make sure that her crop is very flat before I feed her.
Now that she is almost entirely covered with feathers, it is hard to tell just by looking, but I feel her crop by touching. I may be feeding her a lot more than I should. I will try to lessen the amount a little and see if she would be eager to eat.

She was pecking, it seems, from the very early days......at least was making the motion of pecking. 

She may be a midget pigeon...should I call her.....'pidget'?

Her feathers are more gray now than brown, with white tail. And she is developing some designs, or lines on the wings.

Yes, I think I need a better camera....but, I don't know when I can afford it.

I am afraid I have been feeding her a little too much, but it's just that underneath all that fluffy feathers, I know she is not very plump. Her neck, for one thing, is very scrawny looking. Than again, maybe every baby dove or pigeon is supposed to look that way???.....

Anyway, thanks everyone, for your time. I WILL promise to keep feeding her.
Demi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,



Some Baby-Pigeon feeding images -


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU



Some Baby-Dove feeding images -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


Is your Baby 'vital' and 'assertive' and 'active' at feed times?


Baby Doves can look a little 'scrawny'...


We do not really now however, if what you have is a Dove of some kind...or a Pigeon of some kind.




All one has to do is to just basically understand...that "poops" show us how much and how fast the Baby is processing the Food...counting and evaluating the poops made in each 24 hour period is important for this...as is simply looking at and or gently feeling or judging the Crop.


Crops will usually empty over-night...unless one has fed them very late, and then gotten up early.


6th image in the Dove album...shows a very comfortable sort of "full" Crop.


Yet...people can totally screw this up and make a 'Water Baloon' out of a Baby, because they posess no judgement.


Unless we have a decent idea what size your Baby is...it is very hard to say "Oh, she can have so-many CCs or MLs to a feeding"


Babys which are chronically underfed, acquire smaller-than-usual Crops...


Babys which are gerously fed...acquire HUGE Crops.


Babys which used to be underfed, can slowly acquire far larger Crop capacities with being progressively fed more each day...



So, Babys of the same age...can have very different Crop capacities...and or be disparate in size themselves.


All that really matters...is that the food is genuinely "good"...that the Baby is never running empty but for over-night...and that the Baby gets to drink Water between meals...for the Crop to maintain it's soft 'squishyness' and not become over-firm from the food in itnot having enough moisture.


Small meals, fairly often...is fine...as long as it is steadily passing and being made-into-poops...since one does not want to have the Crop being 'topped off' faster than their system is processing the food...


Imagine a little 'Bucket' you put say, 'Water' into...and the Bucket has a hole in the bottom...


You fill it up a ways...the water is leaking out in a little stream...and with a little observation, and experiment, you can deide how much to add to it now and then, so it is never too full...and never empty...




Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*I think I know what she is!*

From looking at the second set of pictures, I think she IS a dove!

Her colors are very similar to this baby in the picture.

She peeps very quietly.

She has never been as crazy as Peep at feeding times, but since I have reduced the amount of the formula to which I add some seeds and a bit of grits, she is more eager to be fed.

It is interesting to see her pick up a grain of seed that she drops, over and over until she finally succeeds in eating it. She is very patient.

For the first time, this evening, just before the meal, she climbed up from my hand all the way up my shoulder onto my head. 

She is getting much fluffier with the growth of her feathers which are gray brown with white, and beautiful. I think I can safely say that she is a dove.

I nick-named her 'Fluffy', which is, sort of 'gender unspecific'.

I couldn't tell the difference before, but now she has grown a lot more feathers, it became clearer to see. I thank you for those pictures.

Is it better to add different stuff into the formula, like you show in the first set of pictures? I thought that the formula had everything nutritional-wise that is needed for a baby bird to be healthy.

Demi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> From looking at the second set of pictures, I think she IS a dove!




Hi Demi,



Very good then...she's a 'Dove'..!


Now...she should show definite enthusiasm for feed-times...IF she likes the food.


Baby Doves do not really like 'KT' and neither do Baby Pigeons...but of the two, Babys Doves like it even less.


If they like the food, and are healthy, not-sick...they will be VERY enthused and assertive about Chow-Times.

Granted, those Babys ccoerce3d to adapt to it, who have no option, will tolerate and even show some enthusiasm for 'KT' since that is all they are going to get. Others will simply eat less and or refuse it after a few nibbles, and will sulk or be discouraged.






> Is it better to add different stuff into the formula, like you show in the first set of pictures?



Try eating 'KT-Gravy' for a ccouple days or a week...and see how enthused you feel about it.


Lol...



Yes, academically, it containes what their technical nutritional needs require...


But "yuck"...it it totally boreing and does not taste very good to them...even if they can adapt to it out of coersion.


This is part of "why" so many rehabbers or other people HAVE to "Force Feed"...the Baby would refuse the 'food' as it is, otherwise.




> I thought that the formula had everything nutritional-wise that is needed for a baby bird to be healthy.
> 
> Demi






Baby Doves and Baby Pigeons both...but Baby Doves even moreso...like a little 'Malt' flavor in their formula or for the formula-Gravy-with-Seeds, when eating from the 'Nipple'.


Plain, Old-Fashioned, NOT Cooked 'Malto Meal' is fine for this...adding it to their formula.

Also, actual 'Malt' or 'Malt' Powder is great.



I have never used plain 'KT' exept in a pinch, where no one liked it anyway...or, I had used it a few times as a base for adding other things to...before switching to 'Hagens' which seems like a much better product.


None of these 'Store-Bought' powders are even necessary...you can do just as well making your own from wholesome ingredients of the right kinds.



Originally, my 'formula' for feeding a great many Baby Pigeons and eventually Baby Doves also, was just grinding good 'Pigeon Seed Mix' in a little hand-crank Coffee Grinder, set to medium-coarse...


Adding plain 'Malto Meal'...and maybe some ground up dry Sea Weed of the kinds Oriental or Asian Markets sell...and that was it...and everyone thrived wonderfully.

This would also have 'everything they need'...


Adding ground dry Goji-Berrys is just that much better.


Adding a little Pro-Biotics and Digestive Enzymes is good also if one feels the Baby would benifit.



The formula made this way tastes really good...

If you had to eat nothing BUT this for a few days or a week, you would not mind...it is very yummy and Dove Babys and Pigeon Babys love it.

All the various people who have tasted it over here when I was feeding Babys, were very impressed with how good it tastes...even asking for another Spoon-Full.


The really small Eletric 'Coffee Grinders' where the clear plastic 'Cap' on top is where you put the Beans...used ones are to be had at alost any Thrift Store for a dollar or two...and these are really the bestfor this, much better than the big 'Blender' I was using in the picture.



Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Never thought of it!*

I never thought that the formula tasted bad!

The way Peep used to go crazy even when he smelled? it being prepared, you would have thought that I was fixing him the most expensive steak!!

This little dove, though, has never shown such enthusiasm. But I am glad that she eats and eats enough that she is growing rapidly and healthy. She poops, it looks like, for two birds.

She climed up through my arm and went onto my back, and for the longest time, wouldn't come down, after the last meal, last night. I wondered how I could get her to come down, and finally pulled my shirt so that I could reach to grab her. She is not only 3 weeks old but looks as if she will be flying any minute. She may not like the food she is given but I am more than pleased with her progress.

I will try to see if I can find the extra ingredients that you mentioned above can be found in my town.

Is there any bird treats I can give her between the meals? Or you don't recommend it?

If she likes the food she eats, she would be very chunky in no time.....

 Thanks for the help. Demi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I never thought that the formula tasted bad!


Don't worry, it doesn't. Pigeons don't taste food the same way we do and have very few taste buds anyway. I thought that pigeons had 152 taste buds compared to our 9000, but when I did a search it comes up with 37 taste buds for the pigeon. I bet mixed corn and pigeon peas would taste unappetising to you, but not to a pigeon.

I am glad she is making progress.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> I never thought that the formula tasted bad!



Hi Demi,


Taste it yourself...and see what you think.


Maybe it tastes 'okay'...


This does not mean that a Baby Dove or Baby Pigeon would think so...even if some seem to.




> The way Peep used to go crazy even when he smelled? it being prepared, you would have thought that I was fixing him the most expensive steak!!



If they are starved enough, they will eat or show desperate enthusiasm for just about anything eatible.

Or...who knows...maybe he did like it.








Your Dove should be eating with definite enthusiasm.

Since she is not, then she is either ill...or, she does not like the food.






> This little dove, though, has never shown such enthusiasm.




So...???



She is either ill...does not like the food...or both.




> But I am glad that she eats and eats enough that she is growing rapidly and healthy. She poops, it looks like, for two birds.
> 
> She climed up through my arm and went onto my back, and for the longest time, wouldn't come down, after the last meal, last night. I wondered how I could get her to come down, and finally pulled my shirt so that I could reach to grab her. She is not only 3 weeks old but looks as if she will be flying any minute. She may not like the food she is given but I am more than pleased with her progress.



As they get to fledgling age...they wish to climb, explore, and exerise...or, according to opportunity and logistics...




> I will try to see if I can find the extra ingredients that you mentioned above can be found in my town.
> 
> Is there any bird treats I can give her between the meals? Or you don't recommend it?



Good food, which they enjoy..is all the 'treats' they need.


She should be eating Seeds now anyway, in the formula...or by Pecking or both...or she should be worked with for her to be pecking...so most of her eating is self-feeding, with a few formula feeds each day also.


Small whole Seeds such as Millet, Flax, White Safflower, Canary or Finch Seed or a "good" so-called 'Dove Mix'...do not use the Seeds you had for 'Peep'...whatever those were.






> If she likes the food she eats, she would be very chunky in no time.....
> 
> Thanks for the help. Demi




Baby Doves are not teenage Girls binging...


Baby Doves or Pigeons need to eat or be fed according to their needs...none will ever suffer from Obesity.


Yet that can over-eat...or be over-fed, so we have to be the judge of how much food we feed them or allow them to eat, till they are older.


I am sorry that there is just no good way to explain this.


In Nature they are STUFFED constantly..."FULL" Crops...but people usually have lousy judgement or understanding, so...it's a mess just about every time the topic comes up.

Try explaining to someone on a cell-phone or in text-messaging, AS they are driving on a mountain road, HOW to 'drive' on a mountain road...

This is just about as difficult...espeially when many people who have no over-view, come off like it is all so easy.



By this age, for a Dove, the youngster should also have been having supervised forays at least among Wild grazing Pigeons, if not among wild grazing Doves, or it is going to be impossible for you to socialize them, unless they are placed with a rehabber's pre-release milieu for several weeks.

Far better for them to spend five or six half-hour sessions before they are flying...among wild Kin...




Phil
l v


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Sometimes, 'babies' being given formula can be very picky about the temperature of the food. We had a young pigeon who objected if it wasn't just about 39 celsius/102 fahrenrheit 

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Sometimes, 'babies' being given formula can be very picky about the temperature of the food. We had a young pigeon who objected if it wasn't just about 39 celsius/102 fahrenrheit
> 
> John


Hi John,



Good mention...


Most Pigeon or Dove Babys will refuse it or only eat a few wan nibbles...if the food not...


- Right temperature for them, ie: about 96 to 103 degrees Farenheit but individuals will show preferences within the range. .


- Right consistancy, ie: not too thick...not too thin.


- Good Tasting - ie: Tasting good to them.


Nipple also 'usually' needs to be gently 'squeezed' so they feel it softly against the sides or root area of their Beak as they eat...at least for some while, then usually they do not mind if it is not...but some will mind.






Baby Mourning Doves are usually more demanding or particular in these regards than Baby Pigeons are.


"KT" was never developed for Baby Birds to eat volentarily...it was developed for slam-feeding soon-to-be-sold Babys in professional Breeding hand-rearing contexts.


No Baby Dove I evere met would eat it...and few Pigeon Babys would more than tolerate it by coersion.


It is 'adaquate' nutritionally for force-feeding...nothing more.


'Hagens' is far better...


And if one wishes the Baby to enjoy his or her food...making one's own is best...using 'Hagens' as a base ingredient...or not.


'K-T' goes rancid in a short time, once opened.



Trying to feed rancid food is another problem within all the rest.



I raised a great many orphan Babys from 1981 to 2005 when I first heard of 'K-T' when I joined Pigeontalk...whereupon I tried it...then tried other brands also.


I decided these commercial powders were alright as an ingredient...but I never used them as-is.


Everyone delighted in their foods I made from scratch...all thrived.


These were just simple home-made formulas.


I have never raised any Baby by other than their eating volentarily...so I found out early on, and again in various trials, what they like and what tastes good to them.



Baby Doves particularly like 'Malt' flavor.


And in summation, Baby Doves are especially particular about food temperature, and consistancy also.


Look at the 'blurring' Wings of the little one I am feeding in the Album...for which I had posted the link.


He likes the chow...he is enthused and assertive and happy...vigorous...nothing wan or tentative about it.




Anyway...


Best wishes all...


Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

(So many things to think about )

I do wish that she had a sibling that was being raised together.

But unfortunately, that isn't the case. I will talk to Dena who has several pigeons and doves, what she thinks is the best 

way for her to go back to freedom. Dena may offer to take her so that she can mingle with other doves at her house, but 

right now I have no idea what she would say. What would you do, if she could not take her?


AT the last feeding, she really went after the food like she never had before. In fact, she wanted more but there was none 

left. It must have been the temperature of the food!! Because I boil the filtered water at every meal time, I have to cool 

down the mixture. I must have done just the way she liked it, then..... It is difficult to cool down the food to the same 

degree of temperature every time, because the boiled water starts out at different temperature also. Sometimes I heat it 

way too long so that the water is jumping out of the small spout of the kettle I use, and other times, I do just enough to be 

thoroughly heated. I will from now on try to make sure the formula is warm enough, to suit her taste buds... I did lengthen 

the interval of her meal time, too. So, she probably was more empty.



I do see many pigeons regularly in my neighborhood. About 8 to 10 pigeons come to my next door neighbor's backyard to 

steal the dog water, every day. Some doves live a few streets away, I think. What would be the main difference between 

adult doves and pigeons? Can you tell which by just looking at them? Is it mainly the size that is different? Are there 

particular colors that belong to pigeons but not to doves? The doves I think I see a few streets down from my house, had 

very light colors, mostly whitish with some brown and was visibly smaller than the pigeons. I am wondering, when the time 

comes, if it's a better idea to go near where other doves live to let her go, stay at home and let her fly away, or to go to 

the nearby greenfield like I did with Peep, to see what she would do? (Peep flew only about 20 feet from me, and circled 

back to land on me. Of course, he had a bad leg which might have caused him not to want to venture very far from me. )



The dog kennel which was built for Peep, has chain links that pigeons can easily go through in and out, yet Peep never tried 

to do so. For this dove, though, if and when I take her there for exercise or flying, I need to make sure she would stay 

inside. Would pigeons pick on a smaller dove? I would be afraid to let her mingle with those big pigeons of my 

neighborhood. For a while though, until the weather gets too cold, I will be able to let her fly in the garage during the day, 

and maybe even let her sleep there at night, if she wants to. But, when it gets too cold, I will only let her go outside with 

me for a little while during the day when it's warm and nice in the sun, and bring her inside the house at night to sleep.


Right now she has various things in her cage that she can climb up on. She also has a covered area with a bowl for the 

nest, to sleep in. She is beginning to explore her surroundings.

She is pecking a lot more, too. Do baby doves or pigeons, play with food when they eat? Fluffy pecks the seeds and it 

looks as though she is making them jump right out from the container. Do they do that, on purpose? Or could she be a 

particularly playful bird??

I have to go now to prepare her food. Good night. Demi


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> (So many things to think about )
> 
> I do wish that she had a sibling that was being raised together.
> 
> But unfortunately, that isn't the case.




No matter either way...they sometimes are solo-Babys in Nature...


Spending some times every day feeding, admiring, offering gestures of gentle interaction,...preening them...'Hand Nest', so long as they recieve some, "moderate" attentions...all is well.

Their normal Life as Babys - once endothermic - is solitude...punctuated by social-familial-parental attentions...possibly even a parent sitting with them. Siblings are undoubtably nice...but they enjoy solitude also.


Not too much stimulations...but 'enough'...




> I will talk to Dena who has several pigeons and doves, what she thinks is the best
> 
> way for her to go back to freedom.




I think you mean best way to prepare her for a proper release.



You could consider what I had mentioned in prior posts...as for this - her future prospects - being respected, let her have supervised sojourns now, while you still can, for her to be with grazing Wild Doves or even Pigeons...before she is flying...since there is no way for you to do this AFTER she is flying.


Her Dove parents could...people, virtually never.


You can also IN ADDITION (but ideally not as a substitute, ) let her spend time among pre-release Doves and or Pigeons which a rehabber would have...but these are not going to be out of doors as grazing Wild Birds would be...in 'Wild' surrounds or actual conditions, where she can learn with them about how to be aware of things and how to be with them in that context, and get over whatever 'nerves' she has about it.

Being among her Wild fellows or similar kin OUT of Doors, is the "modes" of learning by being there...she will need.







> Dena may offer to take her so that she can mingle with other doves at her house, but
> 
> right now I have no idea what she would say. What would you do, if she could not take her?



See above...





> AT the last feeding, she really went after the food like she never had before. In fact, she wanted more but there was none
> 
> left.






Glad to hear..!






> It must have been the temperature of the food!! Because I boil the filtered water at every meal time, I have to cool
> 
> down the mixture. I must have done just the way she liked it, then..... It is difficult to cool down the food to the same
> 
> ...





Just 'heat' some water in a Saucepan...don't boil it...just heat an inch of Water or so...in-a-Saucepan...once it is just getting toward being too hot for putting a finger into it, remove it from the heat, set the Tea Cup of formula in the the Saucepan's heated Water...stirr the formula till it is homogeniously "warm"...reove the formula from the heated Water.




Test the temp by pouring a little Formula once OUT of the Heating-Water, onto the underside of your Wrist.


It's pretty simple really...




> I do see many pigeons regularly in my neighborhood. About 8 to 10 pigeons come to my next door neighbor's backyard to
> 
> steal the dog water, every day. Some doves live a few streets away, I think. What would be the main difference between
> 
> ...


----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

*I understand*

Thank you Phil, for taking the time to reply.

I am going to have to carefully plan out my move, I see, as to 'Where, What, How and How long, etc.' regarding her pre-release activities.

As for my attachment to her, as long as I know that I have given her my best in bringing her up, I would rather that she become completely independent and is able to start up her own family somewhere.

I have to think about even more things than before, it seems.....

By the way, the seeds Peep was eating was called, 'Wild Bird Seeds' from Wal-Mart that was recommended by Dena, saying this particular brand is the only one that her birds all like to eat, though Peep didn't seem to like it, did he? He really liked to eat the conversion formula, and concentrated on eating it that I didn't pay much attention to how he was NOT liking those.

I will let you know when I have come up with some plans. Demi


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,




The 'Wild Bird Seed' from 'Walmart' is no good for a young Dove...


Nor is it adequate for a Pigeon.


It is alright to scatter it for Wild Birds, where it will only be part of their diet.



It is not adequate for the diet of a Bird getting nothing else.


See prior posts for what Seeds to get.


I have a lot of keyboard problems presently...Lap Top...very hard to type.


Best wishes!



Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*I am very fortunate, I think!!*

Dear Cynthia and John D,

I forgot to thank you for your advice. The fact that there are people like you out there looking out for inexperienced people like me, feels so good. You all make me a very happy person, indeed, even if things don't work out the way we want, sometimes.

By the way, this morning, I had to take our puppy to get her rabies shot. This place is called, 'Low Cost Spay & Neuter Clinic', run by the nicest people I have ever encountered. Anyway, before I went in, in their huge front yard, I observed many, many ( probably at least 50 ) pigeons grazing. It is surrounded by tall trees and there were other small birds, too. The pigeons were where the sun was shining through the leaves of those tall trees. This seemed an excellent place for my baby dove to watch and learn the way of her kind, I thought, although I don't think there were doves among them.

So, I asked if it's OK for me to bring my baby dove there just to watch them graze, and then maybe soon she would be able to mingle with them. The owner of the place was not there so I didn't get the answer but I have written a letter asking and explaining the situation. I am pretty sure that they will allow me to do it.

It's about 7 miles from my house. I will go there early in the morning ( it was 9am today, but I have a feeling the pigeons would come there earlier ) a few times a week for 3 or 4 weeks, as soon as I get the permission from them.

So, I do feel very fortunate that I have witnessed the scene this morning.

I will let you know how the baby is doing with this adventure, or a learning experience. Demi


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I was just wondering, did you finally establish that this was a mourning dove?

Have you got an up to date photo?

Cynthia


----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

Yes, we did take more pictures this morning.

I should be able to send them in tomorrow, I am hoping. She is really small compared to the pigeon I had before. And she is grayish brown all over except the tail and her underside. She is developing some designs on her wings, I think.

And yes, I have compared looking at the pictures of pigeons and doves, and concluded that she is a dove. I don't know what kind of dove, though. Is there many other kinds of doves besides mourning dove? ( I thought there were, 'Morning Dove' and 'Evening Dove'. That's how ignorant I am.)

By the way, I have received a call from the owner of the place and they said it was all right with them if I came with my baby dove. ( They thought I wanted to release her.) Anyway, they told me when they are open. I may go down there tomorrow morning. I hope she would be as excited as I would be......... Demi


----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

*a Question*

I log in and type in my message, but when I am ready to submit it, I am told that I am not logged in. By logging in anew, I would lose my message after spending sometimes nearly half an hour. It is very disappointing. This happened more than once. Why is it that this happens? Is there a way to prevent this the next time?


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> *I log in and type in my message, but when I am ready to submit it, I am told that I am not logged in.*
> 
> By logging in anew, *I would lose my message after spending sometimes nearly half an hour. It is very disappointing.*
> 
> This happened more than once. *Why is it that this happens? Is there a way to prevent this the next time?*


Hi Demi,
I don't think anyone has the answers as to why this happens, but it seems to happen to others as well, me included. Not that that's any consolation, but just wanted to let you know you're NOT alone. 

My suggestion would be, if it's a lengthy post, copy what you've written & paste it in an email BEFORE you submit your post. That way, if it does happen again, you've got your message saved & just have to recopy & paste it in a new post. Once it has successfully gone through, delete your email.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> And yes, I have compared looking at the pictures of pigeons and doves, and concluded that she is a dove.
> 
> *I don't know what kind of dove, though.
> 
> ...


Here are some pictures of the different types of doves that frequent our backyard. I would assume they are in your area as well.

*Baby Whitewinged Dove*










*Adult Whitewinged Dove*










*Baby Inca Dove*










*Adult Inca doves*


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I don't have any pictures of a baby Ring Neck or Mourning dove, only as adults.


*Eurasian Collard Dove*










*Mourning Dove*


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> I log in and type in my message, but when I am ready to submit it, I am told that I am not logged in. By logging in anew, I would lose my message after spending sometimes nearly half an hour. It is very disappointing. This happened more than once. Why is it that this happens? Is there a way to prevent this the next time?



Hi Demi,



Open a new additional window...log-in 'there'...return to the window your post is in...post your message...



Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Cindy, I didn't know there were so many kinds of Doves. They're really quite pretty aren't they? We only see mourning doves around here. I think their are pretty too, though.


----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thank you, everyone, for your helpful advice!! And those beautiful pictures! I think she resembles the mourning dove the most right now.

I went to the 'Low Cost...' to let her see the pigeons, but there were many patients ( dogs and cats ) already waiting outside for their treatment which certainly will not encourage any birds to come near. Disappointed, but I half expected something like that, too. And I went to the park on the way home. There is a huge parking lot at the park, and there they were.... the pigeons pecking something off the ground. So, I quietly got close to them and sat with my baby dove, and let her see what they were doing.

More to my disappointment, she wouldn't pay much attention to them. She did look around some but acted like, 'I am not interested!', and kept looking the other way.

Oh well.........She has been pecking seeds at least 1/3 of the time now. She has learned to drink water, too. Also, she has been hopping and flying very short distance, such as from my hand to my head starting yesterday. This afternoon, I found her pacing back and forth in the cage, and so I took her to the garage, and!! Yes, she can fly now. She did about 5 or 6 feet. So, I set up some higher up place for her to perch, with seed and water nearby. I think she likes it up there, and for a while at least, she will be residing in our garage. I have to write more later. Demi


----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

Yesterday, she was, part of the time, very enthusiastic about eating, and what she ate was the same old KT formula with other things mixed in. This evening, for the first time, I tried 'Malt-O Meal'. She loved it!! Of course, we had a very busy day and she hasn't been fed (by me) for a long time. She has been pecking seeds on her own a lot, so I wanted to wait a little longer than before.
She surely seems to have mind of her own. Whenever I look at her, she is either busy preening or pecking seeds.
It seems, also, that she plays with her seeds, pecking and flinging seeds on purpose all over outside the jar. Is this a common behavior? So very mischievous, wasting a lot of good seeds!!!
Since from now on she is able to fly, I can not safely test anything, without risking her flying away. She is only 19 days old today. It is hard to believe that only yesterday, she really started walking and climbing from place to place. She may not be content to stay inside the cage any longer. But, should she be in the cage at night? Or is it all right to leave her where she is, if she seems to be happy there ( in the garage )? I have covered the car for protection just in case and bird-proofed most things. The temperature in the garage is neither too hot nor too cold with 7 or 8 inches of the window open. I will close it later. 
Demi


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Does the window have a screen? Also, rodents can get into the garage, can't they? She would probably be better off in her cage for the night. She'll be fine in the cage, as long as she gets out for excercise and companionship. It will feel secure to her.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> *Baby Doves do not really like 'KT' and neither do Baby Pigeons*
> 
> Phil
> l v


Try convincing Darlin' Marlin that he *doesn't* like KT.
  ​










pdpbison said:


> *In Nature they are STUFFED constantly..."FULL" Crops*
> 
> Phil
> l v


There have been many a babies born on our patio & never have I seen the parents STUFFING them constantly.

True, they feed their baby's until their crops are full, but they don't constantly keep the crops full. 

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Demi,
When Fluffy is ready to be released, I would like to invite her to come live with our backyard buddies. 
She would be well taken care of & would have lots of other dovies to play with. 

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

demi said:


> She surely seems to have mind of her own. Whenever I look at her, she is either busy preening or pecking seeds.
> It seems, also, that she plays with her seeds, pecking and flinging seeds on purpose all over outside the jar. Is this a common behavior? So very mischievous, wasting a lot of good seeds!!!
> Since from now on she is able to fly, I can not safely test anything, without risking her flying away. She is only 19 days old today. It is hard to believe that only yesterday, she really started walking and climbing from place to place.


Our pigeons and doves pick up plenty of seeds and then drop them somewhere, or swish their beaks through a pot of food to find something they particularly like. Sounds like a normal dove who would, in the wild, now be fledged and eating seeds and grain. At 19 days, she is of the age where she should just be encouraged to eat seeds herself. 

John


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Try convincing Darlin' Marlin that he *doesn't* like KT.
> ​
> 
> 
> ...


Oh Cindy, that is sooooooooooooooooooo cute. Love it. When I raised my 6 baby pigeons, they loved mealtime too, and we used KT formula also.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Cindy, I didn't know there were so many kinds of Doves. They're really quite pretty aren't they? We only see mourning doves around here. I think their are pretty too, though.


Hi Jay,
We have a variety of doves in the backyard. LOTS of little Inca doves. They are too cute. 

There is a Ring Neck dove in particular I will never forget. We had just rescued Whitefeather after falling from one of our palm trees. 

We had no idea what we even had so we packed up the baby & headed to the Fish & Game Dept. They told us we had a baby pigeon at which time one of the clerks said, "They have the ugliest babies." 
They told us to just feed him some wild bird seed *OR* leave him with them I they would raise him. After the comment that was made, Chuck & I decided no way were we going to leave him there. After all, how hard would it be to feed a 'baby' seeds. 

After a day or two of attempting to feed him seeds, to no avail, I placed him on the patio while trying to figure out what to do. I noticed a Ring Neck dove sitting on the wall looking as if he was going to vomit. 

All of a sudden he flew down to the patio & Whitefeather began flapping his wings as the dove moved in on him. I thought he was attacking the poor baby.
It turns out he was only helping _me_ by feeding him. That dove literally saved Whitefeather.

*He LOVED his 'goose' nest *








The feedings continued for several days & then one day the dove flew down & Whitefeather stood still as a church mouse in his nest. Didn't move a feather nor uttered a peep. The dove looked around, then finally flew off. 
As soon as the dove left, Whitefeather hopped out of his nest. 
At that point he began eating seeds. 

All this, of course, took place _pre_ Pigeon talk days.

Cindy


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Thank you sooooooo much!*

She is so very small, yet, but I think she is mature enough to mingle with other doves.

My sons live in Mesa, Cindy. Would you give me the details through my e-mail address: ' [email protected] ' ?

I was even thinking about attracting neighborhood pigeons to my yard by scattering seeds all over the back yard, though I don't see any doves around.

Yes, we do have screens on all our windows. I have never seen anything bigger than roaches and spiders in the garage. A baby scorpion has been seen in the garage 1 or 2 times in these 20+ years. We do have prairie dogs, and cotton tail and Jack rabbits in the desert right across from my back yard but they, maybe because of the dogs of our neighbors, don't come near our house. Our dog who is litter trained, has her box in the garage and because we don't yet ( this is in the plan within a few weeks ) have a dog door, she has to go to the garage often and the door between the kitchen and the garage is always open a bit. I do go to the garage very often to do the laundry and to check on her, and to play with her. I can't wait to see her having her own friends to be with, though.

I believe it IS the consistency and the temperature of the food, mostly, that she cares. If it is not prepared with boiled water hot enough to make the formula or cereal gooey, she doesn't seem to like as much. But I think, now, she is eating on her own well that I don't worry about her starving. 

Just as Peep ( my very first baby pigeon ) did, she seems to like the KT conversion formula which looks like the small-grained cereal we eat, in the color of red and beige. They are still too big for her mouth, so I crush those for her and she eats that a lot too. And right now she is mostly eating small grained 'Finch' seeds. I did get some 'pigeon seed mix' which has variety of seeds besides the ones I see in the bag of Finch seeds.

She surely is very blessed in that so many of us are caring about her well-being. I thank you all for your time very very much. Demi


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Cindy, thank you for the photo of Darlin' Marlin, it is lovely. It reminded me that Chico is enjoying her Kaytee Exact at this link:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

The story of Whitefeather and the dove deserves to be published, it- is so touching.

I have named one of my keepers Whitefeather...it was going to be Cindy, but turned out to be male.

Cynthia


----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

I have questions for you again.

Is is all right to give my dove roasted 'sesame seeds'? They have nothing added but roasted.

Also, how much and when is it best to give her grits? Do I spread them ( now that she is pecking her food ) with other seeds and would she know to eat them too?

Demi


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

demi said:


> I have questions for you again.
> 
> Is is all right to give my dove roasted 'sesame seeds'? They have nothing added but roasted.
> 
> ...


Actually, pigeons/doves (as far as I know and have always been told) should not have any seeds/nuts that are roasted. They should be in raw form.
Give the grit in a small dish, about a 1/2 teaspoon and she'll eat it when she thinks she needs it.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Hi Jay,
> We have a variety of doves in the backyard. LOTS of little Inca doves. They are too cute.
> 
> There is a Ring Neck dove in particular I will never forget. We had just rescued Whitefeather after falling from one of our palm trees.
> ...


Renee what a great story. Thank you for sharing it with me. Hard to believe that a little dove would feed an orphaned pigeon. I would love to have been able to see that. Birds are amazing, and some are so unselfish and nice, that many people could take lessons from them. I loved that story, and will remember it.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When mine started pecking at seeds, they liked the small white millet seeds. Cute at this age aren't they?


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> *Renee* what a great story. Thank you for sharing it with me. Hard to believe that a little dove would feed an orphaned pigeon. I would love to have been able to see that. Birds are amazing, and some are so unselfish and nice, that many people could take lessons from them. I loved that story, and will remember it.


UMMM........that was Cindy..........not me (Renee)........I don't have any stories that good.....


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> UMMM........that was Cindy..........not me (Renee)........I don't have any stories that good.....


DAH! I'm sorry. I meant to say CINDY. Renee, I must have been thinking about you. LOL. CINDY, I ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE STORY!


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

My dove likes the small dark seeds that are among the other small seeds in the Finch seed bag. I don't know the name of these seeds. She, trying to get to them which are very few compared to other kinds, flips away the others making small mounds all over.

I can not contain her in the cage any longer. If I put her in the cage, she would start pacing immediately, making me feel sorry for her. She is now perched on top of the cage, in the living room overlooking us. (When she was in the garage, almost as soon as she sees me come into the garage, she would fly onto my head or shoulder and stays there. It feels good that she likes me but it is difficult to do things with her on me, so I had to bring her into the living room where she can see me.)
Demi


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,



Yahhhhhh...

Mourning Doves...

Chow-and-feeding wise, care-wise, same as Pigeons, just 'smaller'.


Once fledgling, very different than Pigeons, and, once fledged and self feeding...usually, "totally unmanagable"...and or soon un-catchable also.


At this phase, any 'Cage' situation unless truely HUGE, will usually be a no-go...


Maybe 'pacing' for now...but soon, it would be slamming themselevs into the Cage sides...they do not abide confinemen.


When socialiing them to their wild kin...whether to other same-species Doves, or, to feral Pigeons...when that did not get to occur during the pre-fledgling 'Window of Opportunity'...then, the only half-way useful thing one can do, is to allow the young Dove to be among pre-release feral Pigeons...and to be released with them after a few weeks of time...making sure the Dove has been doing well in her various ways in the Milieu.


This assumes the pre-release feral Pigeons arein a LARGE enlose.


This would be better than 'just' releasing without any Bird-social-milieu time.



She knows she is a Mourning Dove...but she needs to acquire her social confidences among other Birds.


Once released, she will notice her own kind and seek them out...but it is far far better if she could have a learning time first for finding her confidence and some awares.



Phil
l v


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> She is so very small, yet, but I think she is mature enough to mingle with other doves.
> 
> My sons live in Mesa, Cindy.
> *Would you give me the details through my e-mail address*: ' [email protected] ' ?
> ...


You bet. 
I'll get an email off to you tomorrow.

I've released several baby doves straight from the AZ room once they were ready, without any problems. They joined right in with the backyard flock. 

Cindy


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Release Site*

Hi Demi, et al,
I thought you might enjoy seeing a photo of where I release the 'releaseables'.  This is about 2/3's of our yard.
Their feeding area is to the lower left of the photo. The AZ room is also to the left. 

*Our* *Backyard Buddies' Playground* 








When I have a bird that is ready for release (whether it was ill, injured or orphaned), I place their cage by the window in the picutre. They have a full view of the backyard, the flock & the lake. This enables them to become acclimated to their new surroundings, yet there is no chance of them flying off _before_ they are ready to be released. 

I am very fortunate to have a release situation such as this. It has been extremely successful.  

Cindy


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Demi - Your little dove is so adorable growing up  Sorry for not getting these pictures posted yesterday for you - Dave & I were at the race track all day.


----------



## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)




----------



## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thank you, Dezirrae, for posting the pictures.
I am glad that you and your husband had a great time at the race track!

She is already looking very different from these pictures, with much smoother looking feathers which are bigger and longer, too.

Thank you Cindy, for letting me see your place. It looks wonderful.

She, unfortunately, can no longer stay in the cage. As soon as I put her in ( to the one as big as 30"x18"x18") she starts pacing and it drives me crazy, making me feel that I am torturing her. And now she can sort of fly a short distance from where she is perched which is atop this cage in the living room, to somewhere 7 or 8 feet away. Whenever she is hungry for foumula ( once or twice a day, now ) she flies from where she is, onto my head and stays there until I prepare her food!!

I am going to acclimate her by letting her be with neighborhood pigeons that come to drink my next door neighbor's dog water. I have placed a child's swimming pool on our porch and filled with about 2 inches of water. Because I believe she still can not take off from the ground, she probably will be able to peck some seeds off the ground with other pigeons while I watch sitting nearby on the ground. ( This little flying she does, she only does a few times a day - I think she gets worn out by this actiity because she is still very small - and she has never flown up into the air from the ground yet.) She accidentally ( squirmed out of my hands and ) landed on the ground yesterday when for the first time I took her outside for a minute - I had to hold the ladder while my husband went up on the roof to yet again close off the opening to our swamp cooler. Because the garage door to the outside was left open, and the door between the garage and the kitchen was left ajar, I couldn't take the risk of letting the baby alone in the house, hoping that she wouldn't escape, so I took her with me. Anyway, after landing on the ground, she couldn't fly up, and stayed down on the ground so that I didn't have much trouble catching her.

I will see how she does tomorrow and tell you all about it. 

By the way, where do you live in Arizona? Demi


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,



Please don't use a children's-wading-pool with two inches of Water in it as a Bird Drinking-Water container.


Use low, shallowish things...Glass Baking Dishes, 'Bowls' or whatever...Glass or Plastic...


Things they can drink from by standing next to it, or perching on the edge of.



She can have her Social Grazing forays with the ferals or other Wild Birds...till she is able to Fly..."Fly" meaning, take off from the ground and getting somewhere by Flying...so, between now and 'that', and while she stilllooks to you for the daily formula-feed, you still have your 'Window' of opportunity.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> * *She is already looking very different from these pictures, with much smoother looking feathers which are bigger and longer, too.*
> 
> ** *Thank you Cindy, for letting me see your place. It looks wonderful.*
> 
> ...


* Judging from her size, she looks like she should be on a seed diet only. 
When I know the babies are capable of eating on their own I only offer them seeds. If Fluffy is '_flinging_' seeds, looking for her favorites, she is ready to be taken off formula. JMO.

** You're most welcome. The pijjies seem to think it's a pretty  place to hang out. 

*** It does sound like she's ready to start living life on the wild side. 
If everything seems OK with her, in that she is eating on her own, I would suggest d/c'ing the supplement formula feeding & see how it goes.

**** As close as she is to having all her flying abilities, I would take *extreme caution* letting her out to mingle with the ferals. She just may all of a sudden take off, surprising herself *&* you, only to find herself in a predicament that you may not be able to get her out of. 

*** ** I live in Mesa. Dobson & Baseline area.

Cindy


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear Phil, and Cindy,
I did realize after I set the pool that the water level was too low for them to drink out of it. And so, I put the bowl in the middle of it and filled with water up high enough so that they can perch on the edge and drink.
After a little while being out in the back yard this morning, I found out that YES, she can take off from the ground. Oh, my goodness, I thought, she might just fly off somewhere and never to be seen again. But, she flew up to my head and stayed there for nearly an hour. I scattered 'good' pigeon seeds all over the back yard, waited, and waited for the neighborhood pigeons to come to graze, but for some reason, they didn't come to our yard but stayed in the open lot ( desert with few weeds growing ) across from the back alley when they did come down a few times. Mostly though, they perched on the electrical lines or just staying up on our roof, and never came down to graze. In the mean time, all the ( big black ) ants came to steal the seeds.
The baby just patiently sat on my head, then moved to my shoulder and stayed there the whole time, quietly listening to other birds chirping and doing it herself too. I put her down to eat some seeds off the ground but she didn't even try to peck them. She hurriedly flew up onto my head again, and stayed there.
So, I was outside about 1 and 1/2 hours altogether with her on my shoulder.
Now I know that she CAN fly, taking off from the ground level, would you advise me not to let her do what I did this morning?
And yes, I think she really doesn't need the formula any more. She eats crushed conversion cereal and Finch seeds ( I pick out the longer ones that she seems to avoid because they are still a little too big for her to swallow ), the favorite ones among which being the dark colored small round seeds and the white shiny ones.
I will put the vitamin drop in her water from now on, instead of in her formula.
Does all of this mean that she is ready to be with her own kinds now?
By the way, I did, while I was outside this morning, see a couple of doves ( much smaller than the pigeons and very light brownish colors - they could be Mourning Doves, also) which were near the pigeons on the line, though those two were not together. 
Should I fix up the kennel which is my temporary aviary, for the baby? Do you think she can grow up here and eventually mingle with the others?
Or should I try to arrange her transport to you, Cindy?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> Dear Phil, and Cindy,
> *After a little while being out in the back yard this morning, I found out that YES, she can take off from the ground*.
> 
> * *Now I know that she CAN fly, taking off from the ground level, would you advise me not to let her do what I did this morning?*
> ...


* I wouldn't, unless you are prepared & _feel she is prepared_ to be on her own, if she were to fly off.

** Then I would d/c the formula & just let her concentrate on the seeds. 
I feed my flock Dove supreme mix. I add peas, corn, lentils & barley to the mix. I haven't had any complaints about the meals thus far. 

*** I think so. 

**** That's entirely up to you, but she does has an open invitation to come live in our backyard. 
We have pigeons & a variety of doves so she won't be lonely. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> Dear Phil, and Cindy,
> I did realize after I set the pool that the water level was too low for them to drink out of it. And so, I put the bowl in the middle of it and filled with water up high enough so that they can perch on the edge and drink.




Hi Demi,



Get the Wading Pool completely away from there...


Just have a few low Bowls of Water.


No 'Wading Pool' anywhere in sight.




> After a little while being out in the back yard this morning, I found out that YES, she can take off from the ground. Oh, my goodness, I thought, she might just fly off somewhere and never to be seen again. But, she flew up to my head and stayed there for nearly an hour. I scattered 'good' pigeon seeds all over the back yard, waited, and waited for the neighborhood pigeons to come to graze, but for some reason, they didn't come to our yard but stayed in the open lot ( desert with few weeds growing ) across from the back alley when they did come down a few times. Mostly though, they perched on the electrical lines or just staying up on our roof, and never came down to graze. In the mean time, all the ( big black ) ants came to steal the seeds.




They are probably scared off by the 'Wading Pool'...





> The baby just patiently sat on my head, then moved to my shoulder and stayed there the whole time, quietly listening to other birds chirping and doing it herself too. I put her down to eat some seeds off the ground but she didn't even try to peck them. She hurriedly flew up onto my head again, and stayed there.
> So, I was outside about 1 and 1/2 hours altogether with her on my shoulder.
> Now I know that she CAN fly, taking off from the ground level, would you advise me not to let her do what I did this morning?




She is too insecure...and is perching on you because she does not feel comfortable in the out-doors.




> And yes, I think she really doesn't need the formula any more. She eats crushed conversion cereal and Finch seeds ( I pick out the longer ones that she seems to avoid because they are still a little too big for her to swallow ), the favorite ones among which being the dark colored small round seeds and the white shiny ones.
> I will put the vitamin drop in her water from now on, instead of in her formula.




If you will get that 'wading pool' totally out of there...the wild Birds m-i-g-h-t be willing to land and graze.


As long as your Dove still feels dependent on you for 'formula' and security...she is very unlikely to fly off.




> Does all of this mean that she is ready to be with her own kinds now?




She is NOT ready....she did not get the graduated socialiation-experiences, confidence, experience, she needed.


In Nature, "now" is when she would be getting them, in flying with her parents to graze and forrage with others...AS her parents would continue to feed her...








> By the way, I did, while I was outside this morning, see a couple of doves ( much smaller than the pigeons and very light brownish colors - they could be Mourning Doves, also) which were near the pigeons on the line, though those two were not together.
> Should I fix up the kennel which is my temporary aviary, for the baby? Do you think she can grow up here and eventually mingle with the others?
> Or should I try to arrange her transport to you, Cindy?




Get rid of the 'pool'...


Allow her to graze and forrage with wild others...as YOU stay well back, 12 or 15 feet away...sitting, and staying still...and NOT staring at them.



If she flys onto your head...gently place her back in the grazing area, or, on the ground and urge her to join the others.


Continue formula-feeds...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> *And yes, I think she really doesn't need the formula any more*.





pdpbison said:


> *Continue formula-feeds*...
> 
> Phil
> l v


Phil,
Just curious, why suggest to continue with formula feeding when the person who has the bird doesn't feel it's necessary? 

Cindy


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear Cindy, Phil, and others,

I just talked to the owner of 'Low Cost Spay & Neuter Clinic' whose name is Sharon. There are not very many doves that come to the yard at the clinic but, she has lots of doves that come to her house. In fact, 6 months ago, a lady came to release her dove there, and she says that I would be welcome if I wished to do the same. She would let me follow her home to release her, when our dove is ready. She is going to be out of town next week, but any time after that it will be all right for me to arrange it.

The dove is already becoming very handful, just as you described, Phil. She demands my attention by flying onto my head and keeps squeaking until she is satisfied. She still wants me to fix her formula, and she is practically unmanageable while waiting for me to give her the food. I have a feeling that I am spoiling her. Is that possible?

I have to wait until the week after next if I were to let her go at Sharon's house. Does it seem a good idea to you?

I tried again going outside becasue I saw a few pigeons in my yard. But, unfortunately when I come out, dogs of the neighbors' on both sides get excited and start barking, letting all the pigeons fly away. I think I have to abandon the idea of letting her acclimate her with the others in my backyard. My neighbors keep their dogs in their yard most of the time during the day. Right now my dove is acting like a spoiled child who can not let go of her mother, demands attention only when she wants it, and being very picky about the kinds of seeds she eats.

She seems to be mature in some ways, but acts baby-like in other ways.

On account of their having (sort of) business, I can not ask our sons to come to visit us just any time. They have to plan ahead of time, if I were to take up Cindy's offer, which may take a long while. Unfortunately, I have no idea when they are planning to do so at this time.

If I take up Sharon's suggestion and offer, I will be able to release her during the week after next at the earliest.

I wished I could let her be with other birds before releasing her, but so far, I have been completely unsuccessful at it. By the way, Sharon lives about 5 miles away from town, where she probably sees deer, skunks, and all kinds of other animals including many small birds that live in the high desert.

I am all open to your advice and suggestions. Is there a possibility that our baby could be so used to me and become non-releasable? I feel that I have lost the 'window of opportunity' to acclimate her with the others, already. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Ps*

I will get rid of the pool, and try again, tomorrow morning.

It's just that the next door neighbor has the same pool sitting upside down next to the dog water to which pigeons come to drink, and I thought they were used to seeing it, and even thought that it could be a very nice bird bath. Now I think of it, though, bird bath is much smaller, standing higher, and very shallow, isn't it?

Whichever option should be decided to be the best, it can not take place right away, unfortunately. 

Thanks for your time, as always. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Demi. Your neighbor may have the same pool, to which the birds have become accustomed. But if you move a pool to the area where the birds feed, and they are not used to seeing it there, then they will be weary of it. Kinda like when you first put up a new feeder. They just watch it for a while, because they don't trust something new in the area. Finally, one brave bird will approach it, and eat from it. Then they all see that it didn't gooble him up. And they will go to it. They have to get used to changes. If they are not used to it, they will just be afraid to go near it. But by the time they get used to it, more time has been wasted. Smaller things, like little dishes are not so threatening to them as a larger pool would be. That's all Phil was trying to tell you, I think.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Phil,
> Just curious, why suggest to continue with formula feeding when the person who has the bird doesn't feel it's necessary?
> 
> Cindy



It will buy "time" for now, during the Dove's normal Fledgling phase...for the Dove NOT 'flying away' for being allowed to have at least a few socialization forays with the Wild Birds.


At this phase/age...the Dove's Dove-Parents would have continued to feed...as the fledgling is learning to graze, forage...and become socialized to her Wild fellows...during which phase, the Fledgling returns to and or stayes close to the parents...




Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> Dear Cindy, Phil, and others,
> 
> * *I just talked to the owner of 'Low Cost Spay & Neuter Clinic' whose name is Sharon. There are not very many doves that come to the yard at the clinic but, she has lots of doves that come to her house. In fact, 6 months ago, a lady came to release her dove there, and she says that I would be welcome if I wished to do the same*
> 
> ...


* I think that's an awesome offer that Sharon has presented, Demi. 
Can't get much better than that.

** And she will, as long as she knows you'll fix it for her. 
If you know for sure she's eating enough seeds to get along, there really isn't any need for formula. This just keeps her 'connected' to you & delays her of letting go of the 'apron strings', so to speak. JMO

*** I realize we each have our own method of release, but for me, I've *never* taken a baby outside to mingle with the flock prior to release & they've all do just fine.  

**** Honestly, I really wouldn't dwell on that Demi. 
There are a lot of rehabbers who don't have the time to take their babies outside to mingle with a flock, yet they release just fine. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,



Forays-with-the-feals or with then Wild Birds, for an impending Debutant...are a lot easier if theWild/Feral Birds, and one's self, have already been used to a routine of one's feeding them...


Consider to feed the wild/feral Birds as a way of making friends with them...and, thus, of having them handy to socialize orphan Babys to when you need to.



Once feeling independant...your little Dove should make out fine being able to spend time among pre-release others, where she can gain her confidences within their milieu.


One thing bad about kid's wading pools and trying to get Birds used to seeking water in them...is that young or inexperienced or compromised Birds might misjudge the depth of Water in other people's more deeply filled Kiddie-Pools, and drown.



Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thanks, everyone, as always, for the sound advice!

I will make myself visible to those pigeons around our house, give food and water, and let them get used to my being around, so that they wouldn't think of me as an enemy. I did put bows and pie dishes of water all around the back porch. If I keep it up with plenty of clean water, all the time, they probably will break down and come to get it.....

Since I have about 10 days to cut the apron strings from her - right now, thinking to take her to Sharon's place the week after next, I will do what I can to let her be more independent. She has the full use of the garage during the day. I have created a few perches so that from one to another she can fly and get exercise, if she wants to. 

She just loves to perch on top of our heads, though. All three of our heads are used as her perches now when she is in the house....I feel sorry for her being alone but, I don't think she feels the same way.....

She is looking more and more like an adult bird every day, with beautiful feathers.

Demi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> **I will make myself visible to those pigeons around our house, give food and water, and let them get used to my being around, so that they wouldn't think of me as an enemy*.
> 
> *I did put bows and pie dishes of water all around the back porch. If I keep it up with plenty of clean water, all the time, they probably will break down and come to get it*.....
> 
> ...


* Just a thought to ponder, Demi. 
I don't know your situation as far as space/neighbors go, but if you're putting water/seeds on your patio _specifically_ to get the ferals to stop by so you can 'introduce' Fluffy to them, bear in mind, the ferals may stay long after Fluffy has gone to Sharon's place. 
And it's pretty much a given they will invite all their friends to come over as well as bringing their offspring. 

I never realized how fast a 'backyard' flock can multiply until I found myself feeding in excess of 100 pigeons when I started out with a cute little flock of about 12. This was 6 years ago & prior to knowing about PT. 

If you're prepared to care for a backyard flock, if it were to come down to that, that's great. But if not . . . 

** I'll bet she is turning into a real beauty. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> Thanks, everyone, as always, for the sound advice!
> 
> I will make myself visible to those pigeons around our house, give food and water, and let them get used to my being around, so that they wouldn't think of me as an enemy. I did put bows and pie dishes of water all around the back porch. If I keep it up with plenty of clean water, all the time, they probably will break down and come to get it...




Food and Water would be best out in the Center of the Yard...


Porches would not be as 'open'...





> Since I have about 10 days to cut the apron strings from her - right now, thinking to take her to Sharon's place the week after next, I will do what I can to let her be more independent. She has the full use of the garage during the day. I have created a few perches so that from one to another she can fly and get exercise, if she wants to.
> 
> She just loves to perch on top of our heads, though. All three of our heads are used as her perches now when she is in the house....I feel sorry for her being alone but, I don't think she feels the same way.....
> 
> ...




Hi Demi,


I now it's cute...but any Bird slated for relase should not be allowed to acquire the habit of perching on people's Heads.


The idea is to raise them for their sake...and in ways which do not compromise their habits or recourses, as much as possible.


Love them in ways which are as consistant as possible with how they need to Live and behave.


For the duration...please, no more 'Head Perching'...


Best wishes..!




Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Food and Water would be best out in the Center of the Yard...
> 
> 
> Porches would not be as 'open'...
> ...


Demi, I know you enjoy the bird, and yes, it is fun to have him coming to you, and perching on you. But rehabbers, if they intend to release a bird, don't let them get so close as to build any kind of bond with them. You want them to be as wild as possible. You don't want them going to people and landing on their heads. Not every body would react well to that. He needs to keep a distance from people and remain as wild as possible in order to survive when he is released. So, you need to decide if you are going to make a pet of him, or release him to the wild where he belongs, and treat him accordingly. Being partly tame, and partly wild, isn't going to help him after release. Isn't it against the law to keep a wild dove anyway?


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*what do you suggest?*

We have a few places in the living room where she can perch with food and water, besides the garage between which she doesn't go back and forth on her own. Whenever she sees us, if and when she chooses, she just fly onto our heads. How do you suggest we stop this?

Should I just let her be in the garage and I go in there as few times as possible?

I thought you said, Phil, to NOT let Peep out in the aviary alone, because he needed me to be around. Is it different because this dove is getting ready to be released into the wild? I had no intention from the beginning to make her into our house bird, or a pet, but because she is capable of flying freely to anywhere she feels like it, she must be picking our heads which is in the air and moving with soft hair on them....

The only way we can avoid letting her perch on our head is to leave her alone. I could easily do that by making sure that food and water are accessible, and in the garage, right now.

The temporaty aviary ( dog kennel ) has sheet cover which deteriorated by the weather, hanging loose in some places, dangling or flying with the wind - which may be, I just thought of it, now, but, scaring the birds so as not to come near our back yard very much -and needs mending or be replaced by something stiff enough like a board or a roof of some kind................

I was hoping to get some help from Dena ( by the way, Cindy, our bird's name is officially, Ms Marple, aka, 'Fluffy' ) who gave this dove to me, and called her and left message, for the second time, but no answer yet. Because she lives close enough to my house ( 15 min walk ) and I thought she said that she had doves nesting in her yard among some pigeons, she may take her to acclimate her with the ones she had......

'Fluffy' was happy in the garage most of the day today, perched here and there eating, preening, napping, pooping, looking and thinking about ????, etc., etc. When my husband came back later than usual, instead of letting him park his car to get rid of car fumes for a while in the driveway, I let him park in the garage. So I had to bring Fluffy inside for a little while. I took her into the garage again but then she flew onto my head. I tried to put her in another place, but she was back on me in no time. I fed her her 'malt-o meal' at 10pm because she wouldn't leave me alone, sitting on my shoulder squeaking non-stop. Now she is peacefully sitting in the living room with full belly, resting. 

I have a feeling that even if I took her to the park, the huge green field(ditch) with nothing in it, and let her fly away from me, she would circle back and come back to land on my head, like Peep did. When she has nobody but us, how can we not let her think that we are her family? I still have to deal with her somehow the rest of this week and the next week. Where would be the best place for her to be in and around the house?

By the way, Jay3, thanks for your input about the pool.

I may have to rip off and get rid of the sheets in the aviary, but then the top would be open, to all but dogs which are my main concern...

I just don't know what to do?? My husband and my daughter are happy, though, because of the way she is becoming friendly to them and perching on their heads... I have to let her avoid that, too.... 

I guess I am beyound where I was with Peep now, so that I must do everything to detach myself from her. But when you are still feeding her, even if it's just to supply seeds and water in some places, she is dependent on me. Is it better to let her eat off the ground in the yard instead of in the garage or in the house? I will try anything you suggest.

Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

PS

I know some people who keep and/or feed wild birds, including pigeons and doves, in Kingman, AZ, where I live. I heard before that some time ago, it WAS against the law to feed pigeons because they were considered as 'pests'. I don't think such law is in place now, but I probably should find out for sure.

Even with Peep, Phil, I had no intention of keeping him as a pet. Would you say that he was acting independent enough to go back to the wild, had he lived? If it's too late for 'Fluffy', then I just have to change my thinking. Like I said before, when the rest of your family feels entirely different way, it's not easy to keep a consistent behavior toward her. Demi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Demi, I know you enjoy the bird, and yes, it is fun to have him coming to you, and perching on you. But rehabbers, if they intend to release a bird, don't let them get so close as to build any kind of bond with them. You want them to be as wild as possible. You don't want them going to people and landing on their heads. Not every body would react well to that. He needs to keep a distance from people and remain as wild as possible in order to survive when he is released. So, you need to decide if you are going to make a pet of him, or release him to the wild where he belongs, and treat him accordingly. Being partly tame, and partly wild, isn't going to help him after release. Isn't it against the law to keep a wild dove anyway?




Well...the 'Bond' is fine...it is natural, and real...and is what connects the 'parent' and the Baby-youngster-fledgling in important ways.

Babys through feldgling age are necessarily dependant, and their emotional/psychic/visceral comforts benifit from engenuous assurance and connection with their parents or adoptive parent(s).


As they grow and develop and learn and acquire abilitys and confidence, they gradually dissolve the Bond, and their cues and nuances about this are important for us to sense, register and respect...for their phase of dependance to draw to a close, and for them to be variously secure in themselves for their Life to come...


We can do this just about as well as their Biological parents do...but we have to be sensitive and aware of their progressions and developements and how we interact or over-see them, for them to dissolve the bond effortlessly and smoothly.


Probably few rehabbers know how to do this, or understand it.





Head-perching is often something young Birds will do once able, and it is easy just to set them down, and soon they do not seek it anymore.




The 'Bond' is not something which is endemically supposed to last indefinitely...it is Naturally supposed to last untill the growing-up-Bird is able to Live independantly...so, our support and over-seeing of their phases of developent brings things to where the Bond dissolves in keeping with the young Bird's reaching independance and confidence in logistical, social and emotional ways.


If there is a hang up in any of those ways, then there is dependancy-issue which is interfering with, rather than supporting the Bird's development.



Long day...tired brain..!


I gotta get some sleep...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

demi said:


> We have a few places in the living room where she can perch with food and water, besides the garage between which she doesn't go back and forth on her own. Whenever she sees us, if and when she chooses, she just fly onto our heads. How do you suggest we stop this?



It's easy...just set them down onto something else if they get onto your shoulders or head.




> Should I just let her be in the garage and I go in there as few times as possible?
> 
> I thought you said, Phil, to NOT let Peep out in the aviary alone, because he needed me to be around. Is it different because this dove is getting ready to be released into the wild? I had no intention from the beginning to make her into our house bird, or a pet, but because she is capable of flying freely to anywhere she feels like it, she must be picking our heads which is in the air and moving with soft hair on them....
> 
> The only way we can avoid letting her perch on our head is to leave her alone. I could easily do that by making sure that food and water are accessible, and in the garage, right now.




There's a lot to all this...which takes time and experience to learn...it is impossible to spell it all out...


We can Love them, nurture and feed and protect and care for them...'Bond' with them, and, in all these things, respect fairly closely-enough their Natural History and their growing-up, for them to be released.


There is no way to explain it all nor to even be understood if one could.


Not trying to find fault with you Demi...just trying to give 'pointers'...just-so-you-know...


Just not-killing a Baby Bird with bad 'care' is a huge accomplishment...and from there it goes on forever as for understanding, knowing what to do...how to do it, and something of 'why'...understanding what we are doing...understanding them...





> The temporaty aviary ( dog kennel ) has sheet cover which deteriorated by the weather, hanging loose in some places, dangling or flying with the wind - which may be, I just thought of it, now, but, scaring the birds so as not to come near our back yard very much -and needs mending or be replaced by something stiff enough like a board or a roof of some kind................



One learns as one goes...largely by noticing little-things...


We are all in the same Boat in that regard...




> I was hoping to get some help from Dena ( by the way, Cindy, our bird's name is officially, Ms Marple, aka, 'Fluffy' ) who gave this dove to me, and called her and left message, for the second time, but no answer yet. Because she lives close enough to my house ( 15 min walk ) and I thought she said that she had doves nesting in her yard among some pigeons, she may take her to acclimate her with the ones she had......
> 
> 'Fluffy' was happy in the garage most of the day today, perched here and there eating, preening, napping, pooping, looking and thinking about ????, etc., etc. When my husband came back later than usual, instead of letting him park his car to get rid of car fumes for a while in the driveway, I let him park in the garage. So I had to bring Fluffy inside for a little while. I took her into the garage again but then she flew onto my head. I tried to put her in another place, but she was back on me in no time. I fed her her 'malt-o meal' at 10pm because she wouldn't leave me alone, sitting on my shoulder squeaking non-stop. Now she is peacefully sitting in the living room with full belly, resting.



That's fine...but for the 'Head-Perching' which you know now to gently discourage by setting her onto to something else...


It's perfectly alright to Baby-Feed here once or twice a-day presently...and this does not mean anything is behind shedule...but...she needs to be among other Natural Wild Birds now to finish up her Fledgling-time...acquire the 'Modes' of being and confidences...to be independant...for her 'wild' awareness to actualize...be triggered or brought out...





> I have a feeling that even if I took her to the park, the huge green field(ditch) with nothing in it, and let her fly away from me, she would circle back and come back to land on my head, like Peep did.




Please re-read your Thread...


She is not ready to be released yet...


Some parts of her growing up are still going on...this is normal, and, with this, she needs you to over-see her getting to be with other Birds in Natural surrounds...which is what her parents would have been doing now.


She will not fly off 'yet'...but there can be problems with your not being able to ger her rounded up if she lands on a roof or something...so...


Probably, see what you can do as for supervising her for forays of being with pre-release Birds...or try with wild ones in wild surrounds and see how it goes.


But for now, she still looks to you as 'Mom' and your Job as 'Mom' is not finished yet.





> When she has nobody but us, how can we not let her think that we are her family? I still have to deal with her somehow the rest of this week and the next week. Where would be the best place for her to be in and around the house?



See above...


And...

I don't know...


Free flying indoors as much as possible...she needs to be exercising, developing muscles...




> By the way, Jay3, thanks for your input about the pool.
> 
> I may have to rip off and get rid of the sheets in the aviary, but then the top would be open, to all but dogs which are my main concern...
> 
> ...




Just finish raising her as close to what her biological 'Momma' would do...give/provide her what she needs to conclude her feldgling phase and to become independant...


She needs to be with other, wild, or pre-release Birds...five or six half hour sessions during which she pecks and grazes with them...


After five or six of these...she will likely have what she needs to finish out this phase...and be ready for release.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,

This isn't an a parent/child bond, it isn't natural but is a case of Fluffy imprinting on humans (malimprinting). We are not birds and should not encourage birds that are being released to regard us as their "mother" and therefore as one of their species.

This is often done deliberately, and harmlessly, by people who intend to keep a bird as a pet, but the danger of allowing a bird that is going to be released to imprint on a human as its "mother" is that as it grows older it won't regard humans as a "fear subject" but as a familiar object and so it will move closer to the human rather than away from humans. 

As Jay3 has suggested Fluffy will be inclined to land on any human head, not just those of the family. After all, to her a human head is a safe place. 

A bird that needs handraising should be placed with others of its own kind if that is possible. These are other ways of reducing the danger of malimprinting (from this site): 

http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/nature_conservation/wildlife/caring_for_wildlife/carers_kit/birds/raising_juvenile_birds/ 

Reduce imprinting by avoiding eye contact with the bird, putting a sock the colour of the adult of the species on your hand when you feed the bird and place pictures of adults around the cage. You can also play recordings of the calls of the adults near the cage.

Ideally Fluffy should go to a sanctuary or a rehabber, where she can mingle with her own species , she might then adopt their fear of humans and be safe to release.


Cynthia


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Well, I will do my best.

Thank you for your support and encouragement.

If I am making mistakes, though, I won't know until the next time I'm afraid..............

Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear Cynthia,

I got your message right after I posted mine.

It was very interesting to read, and helpful, though it didn't say how you should go about having another youngster around which is what I am truggling with.

I looked up to see if there is such law prohibitting us to feed pigeons and/or doves, but I didn't come across any. I may call the 'Fish & Game Dept.' with the question.

Although we have been trying to keep Fluffy away from our puppy 'Slippers', they can't help but see each other sometimes. The dog seems to like the bird being around, though the bird just ignores the dog. Or she may be getting used to have her around, too. I have to hurry to do something, to remedy the situation. I don't want Fluffy to think that all humans are friendly nor all (small) dogs are her friends.

Is it good for her to be released far away from where she grew up, meaning here, without the experience of being with her own kind? Wouldn't she feel like she is being abandoned when that happens? In order for her not to feel that way, I have to do my best to let her see and to be with other birds, somehow........ Demi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> We have a few places in the living room where she can perch with food and water, besides the garage between which she doesn't go back and forth on her own. Whenever she sees us, if and when she chooses, she just fly onto our heads.
> * *How do you suggest we stop this?*
> 
> ** *Should I just let her be in the garage and I go in there as few times as possible?*
> ...


* Gently brush her off each time she tries to land on you & advise your family members to do so as well.

** My suggestion to that would be to place her in a room where there is ample light & THEN have as little contact as possible with her.

*** If a baby appears to be healthy & only needs help getting to the release point, we humans shouldn't be fussing over them. Feed & water them & clean their quarters is what we should be doing. 

*** ** I just noticed that last evening as I was rereading some of the posts here. I WILL go back & correct my misrepresentations. 

Cindy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Well...the 'Bond' is fine...it is natural, and real...and is what connects the 'parent' and the Baby-youngster-fledgling in important ways.
> 
> Babys through feldgling age are necessarily dependant, and their emotional/psychic/visceral comforts benifit from engenuous assurance and connection with their parents or adoptive parent(s).
> 
> ...


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear PT friends,

This morning, about 7:45am, I sat in the middle of the yard with Fluffy, trying to let her see how it feels like to be outside, after fixing the best I could to remove the flapping sheets in the kennel.
I placed her 3 or 4 yards from me with the bird seeds under her feet, sat and tried not to move a muscle ( which was not easy ). I had white gloves on, by the way. Of course she came back to perch on my shoulder as soon as I put her on the ground. I didn't want to keep on putting her back, moving back and forth, so kept her where she was and stayed with her for a long time.
I saw 2 or 3 doves among the pigeons, on the roof and the electrial lines above. Those doves just sat on the line and didn't move for a long time. I thought Fluffy was going to be over-heated after about 30 minutes on my shoulder with the sun beating on us....
None of the birds came very close to us even though there were a lot of good bird seeds on the ground. Over an hour passed and nothing was happening so, I let Fluffy sit on the edge of one of the pie dishes filled with water. She sort of took a bird bath, wading in it and spreading her wings, after drinking a lot of water.
She is so comfortable being with me, it seemed. I had to go somewhere today, and had to leave her in the garage with the window open a little, with the sun shining with the curtain half way open, almost all day. She got too lonely from being alone in the garage for a long time, that she perched on the first head she saw which was my husband's. She was removed immediately but kept shaking her wings and squeaking. She finally calmed down after I fed her some warm food. She had plenty of food and water all around her, and I know that she had been eating and drinking, but acted like she was starved to death. 

It would have been so much better, and easier if she could have grown up with a sibling.
Fluffy's future is completey unknowable right now. I have no idea where she is going to end up living......... Demi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Demi,

If you call Fish & Game or US Fish & Wildlife, you are risking them confiscating your little dove. It IS illegal for you to have him/her. I think we've already been there and done this in this thread. TRULY .. you CANNOT be taking crazy chances at this point with this little dove.

It's fine to call them about feeding wild birds .. it is NOT illegal to do so unless you are baiting them to be in an area in order to "hunt" them. Still, don't be telling them you have a protected species of wild bird.

Be very, very careful who you talk to about this bird and also very, very careful about what you do.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,



Please heed Terry's advice...


Please re-read your thread with respect to the various info I have provided.


Possibly now you are starting to realize...99.9 percent of these situations, the person is at best m-a-y-b-e, just barely able to feed a Baby Bird and keep it alive long enough for all-the-rest to even be an issue.


Raising one...raising one for release...knowing how to be a real Parent to an Orphan Bird, is exponentially more involved or frought with unassayable things-to-understand, for those who do not know what they are doing, or those who only have hear-say and rote...and or who come off self-assured and know nothing else but a few non-integrated 'methods' which are not about understanding.




Lastly...please, no 'White Gloves' or flashy anything if trying to invite Wild Birds to graze near you.



You are doing alright with some things...other things need correction...she needs to be discouraged from practicing her accidental 'Head-Perching' training...and she needs to be with adult wild Birds to actualize her next 'modes' of developent.


Having her on your lap "watching" wild Birds is not going to do it.


She has to be literally with them...and you ten or fifteen feet away...for thse forays.


Having accidentlly 'trained' her to fly TO you constantly...or as may be...needs to stop...and or, set her down any time it happens.




Best wishes,


Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Thanks for all the help you've given me.*

Please don't feel that you have to answer all my questions, just becasue I asked.

If the baby dove I have, feels safe enough to land on the family member's head, from now on, would she regard everyone's head as a safe landing place? It took her some time to get used to other family members beside me. They thought that she hated them at first. Anyway, if the answer is yes, it does seem that it is too late to alienate her from us, because even though I discourage her from doing it, she doesn't seem to stop it.........

No, I haven't called anybody about the law, yet. And now that you have warned me, I won't.

I had white gloves but they were dirty ones that I used for yard work. But, I won't wear them any more when handling her outside. So, if I want to attract birds, I must wear colors that blend in with the nature? I couldn't have worn dark colors, though. It still is very hot outside. I had white hat and nearly white shirt, and very light pink long pants. No wonder none of the birds came near us......

It would have been much simpler if I started out to have her as a pet, now that I think of all the things involved, especially trying to return her to the nature. That and weaning is, I think, the hardest part for me.

I was not being fair to her, it seems, to do so now, returning her to the wild, that is, not being able to let her even come near another bird, though I have heard some success stories of completely inexperienced persons.

My family looks at this situation completely different way, and so they have no problem with her becoming our pet, whereas I feel that somehow I failed to let her have what would have been better for her......... They think that she can have both ways; she can have the safety and security that we can provide for her and still be free enough to become friends with the birds that come to land on our roof and lines nearby. I don't know if that is possible, only because I don't know how to protect her from bigger birds that want to eat her, IF I give her the freedom to fly away.

By the way, her coloring is changing a little. The underside of her wings looks very dark, and she seems to be developing part of a dark ring around her neck. Instead of 'whitewinged....', it is 'darkwinged...', now.

I think I tired you all out with my questions, didn't I?

I will report to you what's going on only if I think it's worth reporting so as not to waste your valuable time any more. I should have given it more thought before I took on this task of hand raising another orphaned bird..., Dena did sound very relieved when I said yes, though.....

Do crows attack smaller birds for food? They are scavengers, aren't they?
Don't answer that, I will find out myself.

I feel like I have raised a spoiled child of a bird, although none of my children seem very spoiled..... I will say good night, to everyone now. Demi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,




No more "Hats"...


Hats will scare them.


No 'Scarves' blowing in the breeze...




Your Youngster is still in a normal, natural phase of what wouldbe the last poise of dependance...waiting for you to show her to the finish-line...which at this stage "NEEDS" to be respected by letting her spend successive forays with Wild Birds...or, if you can not manage that...then, "NOW" with no more delays, for her to be with pre-release Birds in a free fly situation...and no more 'house pet' anymore...even if you can not supervise he bring in the new situation with pre-release Birds.




As it is, you keep scattering your attention everywhere but where it is needed - where it is needed, is in the cogent and forthright exercise of your responsibility to THIS Dove, inher ters ofwhat she needs...and finishing the Job you started.


Please stop going on and on about everything else and all your naive wonderings and finding all these creative ways of making sure things do not 'work'.


One way or another, get her with Wild or Pre-Release Wild Birds NOW, or you will end up with a very unfortunate screwed-up 'pet' you are not in any position to understand or provide for...and which will end up having a short, frustrated Life as a Garage Birdwhen not thrashing in a Cage.


If allowed to be with Wild or pre-release Birds NOW with no further "pet training" she will probably do just fine...she will manage the transition just fine 'cold turkey' with them...she is close-enough...


Get with whoeveritwas that has pre-release Birds...and do it.


This is the phase so many people totally louse it up, then everyone says "Ohhhh the Bird LOVES me and does not want to leave!"


Oye...


When the reality is...they totally loused it up and 'trained'an incomplete, non-self-sufficient, dependant, Bird...who could have been whole and free.

There's still time to straighten things out with this Dove, if you are willing to do it.

Since you do not seem to be able to stop trying to train a 'pet'...the best thing at this point, is giveher to whoever has pre-release Wild Birds...and let them finish things up so she can complete what she needs to Live.


She can do it...


But not the way you keep trying.


And there is not much time left for your learning curve to be what it's all about.

It needs to be about her...what works for her...

There's no time left for any more things which are not working.



Best wishes,



Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*She will be with others, tomorrow*

Dear Phil,

With my inexperience and, no example shown but explanation with words, I had to make some mistakes before I could succeed, unfortunately.

There were many pigeons and smaller birds on the back porch and on the ground this morning. So, I covered myself with an old light brown bedspread and took her to the backyard.

She didn't stay where I left her but flew up onto the ledge about 5ft high, and watched pigeons, doves, and other smaller birds come to graze. She wouldn't come down from there so after a while, I put her in the pie dish (with water in it). She then observed a couple of BABY DOVES that came to graze. She was a few feet from where they were. I was hoping that she would approach them and even go with them, but of course she didn't. With sweat covering my whole body, I had to leave after 1&1/2 hours. But this time they came which she watched from nearby. 

Only now I know how to be in the yard with birds with non-threatening guise. So, first thing in the morning tomorrow, I will take her there so that she may be hungry enough to be on the ground pecking.

There were two adult doves that looked exactly like she does, with two black half moon shaped lines on both sides of their neck. She can follow them, or the baby doves as far as I am concerned, although she doesn't show any sign of wanting to leave with them. 

Many sparrows and cactus wrens also came and stayed in the kennel, eating and flying through the link (mesh). 

I might just leave her be on her own and just watch her from the inside of the house, through the kitchen window. If she stays, and probably will, I will keep letting her be there on the ledge where she was this morning ( there is a steel bookshelf that is placed against the house on the porch, and the one below the top shelf is where she was), or inside the kennel on top of a pigeon coup that I made many months ago, a few times today and tomorrow, for her to get used to the idea of being there alone. And at the end of tomorrow I will leave her there to see what she does.

She may stick around for some time, but may leave with others after a while.

I will let you know how it worked out. Demi 

( I don't have any way of taking her to anybody with young ones like her within a few days. Dena never called me back. )


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Please Rethink!!!!*



> There were two adult doves that looked exactly like she does, with *two black half moon shaped lines on both sides of their neck*.


Demi, that sounds like a *eurasian collared dove*, not a mourning dove. If that is the case *she isn't a protected species *as she is non-native, it might be OK for you to keep her. Please do not release her just yet! If you can't keep her maybe someone could adopt her.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Collared_dove.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Collared_dove.jpg&h=1200&w=1800&sz=1207&hl=en&start=20&usg=__ToWUstLy40cFKhBqVfbhOqUXJ9o=&tbnid=hUg7HfWw2G2SiM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522collared%2Bdove%2522%26hl%3Den


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,


Very good...


Try making sure she is not fed...make sure she is hungry...for these forays, so she WILL be pecking with the others.


I never said anything about her needing to be with other feldglings.


She needs to be with or among wild "Adults"...from whom...with whom...she will advance into the necessary modes of awareness and self-posession.


Please do not continue confusing this with your imagained 'need' for her to have siblings or substitute siblings...or similar age playmates.


At this phase, her Dove-PArents would have been Wild Adults...over-seeing her forays among other Wild Adults.


She has nothing to learn from other feldglings.


At this phase, when provided with right conditions ( ie: grazing and foraging with wild adult others ) her modes of awareness and self "shift" and with practice, then become her mood and confidence for independance and ability.



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Demi,
Please refer back to posts 34 & 35. I posted these pictures to help you identify Fluffy. 

Cynthia is right. IF Fluffy is in fact a Ring Neck (AKA collared) dove, then you are within in your rights to keep her. 

Cindy


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Cindy/Demi,

Do wild ringneck doves exist in your area? I'm curious because we don't have a wild population here (any that you see are likely to be escapees).

Jennifer


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Let's see exactly what kind dove Demi has _before_ we make anymore suggestions with regard to releasing Fluffy. 

I've posted pictures of the species of doves we have in AZ. Fluffy is old enough now to be identified by her markings.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

jenfer said:


> Cindy/Demi,
> 
> *Do wild ringneck doves exist in your area?*
> 
> ...


Hi Jennifer,
Yes. 
I have some in my backyard as well as Inca, Mourning & Whitewinged doves.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is a video of some of my rescued collared doves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40jsxHTcRRw

We have one, Poppet, who imprinted on humans when she was being hand raised. Although she is in the aviary with feral pigeons, wood pigeons and other collared doves she believes that John is her mate and lands on our heads when she sees us.

This is Poppet being bullied by a feral pigeon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chy5UB92Gd4&feature=related

And this is Poppet wondering what all this billing and cooing among birds means:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l64rZ0DPLVc



Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think if your dove, Demi, is so friendly as to land on you or other people she could be at risk if released. Our Poppet would never be releasable, as s/he would just as likely think that cats were 'furry friends' rather than predators. The people who found her had raised her from a little baby, and she was quite happy to come and perch on me as soon as I met her, when I went to collect her. 

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Demi,
> 
> If you call Fish & Game or US Fish & Wildlife, you are risking them confiscating your little dove.
> * *It IS illegal for you to have him/her.*
> ...


Unless I missed it, I don't believe anything was mentioned about Demi's dove being illegal for her to have, even though it was thought to be a Mourning dove.

Perhaps a reminder of which doves _are_ protected should be mentioned more often.



pdpbison said:


> *Spending some times every day *feeding, *admiring, offering gestures of gentle interaction,...preening them...'Hand Nest'*, so long as they recieve some, "moderate" attentions...all is well.
> 
> Phil
> l v


When this type of advice is given, we end up with a situation such as Demi's. 
When a bird is being prepared for release, they need to be left alone, except to feed, water & clean their quarters daily. 



pdpbison said:


> Well...*the 'Bond' is fine*...*it is natural*, and real...*and is what connects the 'parent' and the Baby*-youngster-fledgling in important ways.
> 
> Phil
> l v


Bonding is NOT fine nor is it natural when a human is dealing with a 'feral' bird. We are NOT their parents.



pdpbison said:


> Get with whoeveritwas that has pre-release Birds...and do it.
> 
> *This is the phase so many people totally louse it up, then everyone says "Ohhhh the Bird LOVES me and does not want to leave!"*
> 
> ...


When you suggest that bonding is fine & natural & that one should 'preen' them & make 'hand nests' the bird is most likely going to imprint on the human. 

I think it's totally unfair to say the person taking heed of such advice is to blame for the bird imprinting on them, causing them to possibly become dependant on the human. 

Cindy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Unless I missed it, I don't believe anything was mentioned about Demi's dove being illegal for her to have, even though it was thought to be a Mourning dove.
> 
> Perhaps a reminder of which doves _are_ protected should be mentioned more often.
> 
> ...


Hi Cindy. I did mention that it was illegal to have a wild dove. And also agree that it sounds to be a bit of a contradiction, when on one hand, the person is being told to "bond" with the bird as its parents would, and at the same time, being told to have NO HEAD PERCHING. If we act as if we are the birds parents, isn't this just more confusing to the bird? How does one "bond" with a bird, but not have it imprint on humans? I think all that only served to confuse this poor person trying to do the best they could. Not fair to blame her, when the advice was so confusing. Thanks for mentioning this.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Hi Cindy.
> * *I did mention that it was illegal to have a wild dove.*
> 
> And also agree that it sounds to be a bit of a contradiction, when on one hand, the person is being told to "bond" with the bird as its parents would, and at the same time, being told to have NO HEAD PERCHING. If we act as if we are the birds parents, isn't this just more confusing to the bird?
> ...


* Thanks Jay. I _had_ missed that. 
As far as I know, Mourning, Whitewinged & Inca doves are protected. 
Collard (AKA Ring Neck) doves are not.

** Exactly.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted by AZWhitefeather
> Unless I missed it, I don't believe anything was mentioned about Demi's dove being illegal for her to have, even though it was thought to be a Mourning dove.
> 
> Perhaps a reminder of which doves are protected should be mentioned more often.
> ...






My 'advice' Cindy...when I have ngiven it at all, has consistantly had everything to do with trying to help people to not end up with the 'Bird' being dependant on them...a problem for which neither you nor anyone else has had any real insight or understanding as for how to avoid...and a problem which was continuously being presented long before I ever joined Pigeon-Talk.



For which your and everyone else's "solution" is then ( cough-cough ) "Make it a Pet!"






> Jay3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Cindy. I did mention that it was illegal to have a wild dove. And also agree that it sounds to be a bit of a contradiction, when on one hand, the person is being told to "bond" with the bird as its parents would, and at the same time, being told to have NO HEAD PERCHING. If we act as if we are the birds parents, isn't this just more confusing to the bird? How does one "bond" with a bird, but not have it imprint on humans? I think all that only served to confuse this poor person trying to do the best they could. Not fair to blame her, when the advice was so confusing. Thanks for mentioning this.
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway...


Demi asked me to guide her in raising this Dove.


I like Demi, I admire how she is a person of quality and care.


So...I have shared things I have learned by experience, in order to try and inform or guide.


It is not possible to explain everything, nor to head off all unforseen eventualities.


Regardless...Demi has managed well, done well, she genuinely Loves these Birds and wants to keep learning... 


Her Dove is at a stage where the remaining and needed socialization with Wild Adult Birds can still occur...and with it, the dissolving of the entanglements or hang-ups the Bird was starting to get into.



And...so...


Good-enough.


If things do not end up favoring the Dove's readyness for release...then so be it.


Since for one thing, Demi does not have the room or facility for piling up long term Bird 'pets' acquired by default...I think it particularly makes sense for her to learn and understand how they may be raised for successful release.


Anyway...




Phil
l v


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*You make me*

feel doubly guilty.....

Like you said, Phil, everyone does things differently, because we ARE different from one another. But if we come to a successful ending or conclusion of things, does it matter that we did do things differently?

I do thank every one of you for your help and advice. I didn't want to cause dissension amnong you people.........

Our Fluffy IS 'Ring Neck Dove'. I don't know if someone near my house has them......I did see a couple of them this morning on the electrical line, then came down to the yard. There were a couple of baby doves also in the yard. They could have been their babies ( or some other type of doves that are so much smaller?......)

I was going to do the same tomorrow morning, concealed under the hot bedspread under the hot sun, just so that Fluffy would be able to be near or among the wild ones. Wouldn't it be good at least for her to know that there are others just like her and see what they do, to learn their ways, though?

If any of you would like to adopt her, because you have the same kind of bird that she is, you are welcome to have her. If what I am trying to do is already too late, she may end up just being our house pet, without having any friends or companion. I would rather that she be with someone who could provide her with some bird friends.

She does seem to be bonded with us now. But at the same time, I think she would more than welcome bird friends.........Even we humans, leave our nest, leaving our loving parents behind, and seek companion, don't we? It's only natural that some day, she would like to do the same......

I actually left her on the shelf I described before which was the only place where there was shade from the sun, from 11am to 2:30pm in the back porch with some food and water. I did go back to check on her once. She just stayed there in the same place I left her. She was happy when I went to collect her, though.

She is almost fully feathered, I think. 

I almost didn't open this thread, after feeling so disheartened, but I am glad I did!! Now I know what kind of bird Fluffy is, and I somehow feel that after all of this, she will be OK, one way or another.
Demi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Wishing you the best of luck, Demi. 

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

demi said:


> feel doubly guilty.....
> 
> ...
> 
> I do thank every one of you for your help and advice. *I didn't want to cause dissension amnong you people*.........


Demi,

You didn't cause anything.

This is far from the first time on here somebody has felt 'guilty' for something which was not of their doing, be assured.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Her Dove is at a stage where the remaining and needed socialization with Wild Adult Birds can still occur...and with it, the dissolving of the entanglements or hang-ups the Bird was starting to get into.


Can I remind you Phil that you have *no experience of collared doves and know nothing about their behaviour once bonded with humans*? 

We have had collared doves that were raised with a healthy distrust of humans and they were released successfully.

We also have had collared doves that formed a bond during hand feeding and as John said, we would not dream of releasing them, it is too dangerous.

An example of how an imprinted bird fails to react properly happened in our garden last year. A sparrowhawk landed in the garden. All the ferals took cover. The wood pigeons sat stock still with extended necks.

Poppet, the imprinted collared dove, sat preening herself. Fortunately she was safe in the aviary or she would certainly have been supper.



> My 'advice' Cindy...when I have ngiven it at all, has consistantly had everything to do with trying to help people to not end up with the 'Bird' being dependant on them...*a problem for which neither you nor anyone else has had any real insight or understanding as for how to avoid.*..and a problem which was continuously being presented long before I ever joined Pigeon-Talk.


Please read post 81 Phil. 

Demi, I wish I was in the US, I would certainly offer a home to Fluffy.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It doesn't matter any more.


We thought this was a Mourning Dove...


And as for the rest, it speaks for itself well enough.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Our Fluffy*

Is peacefully preening herself on the back of a kitchen chair dropping her poop all over the floor.

I would never wish to endanger this little bird, at the same time, I would not wish to take away the freedom and the thrill of being able to fly high in the sky, just to be A BIRD!

My family thinks that she can have the best of both world, meaning she can come to get food, water, and shelter here, but can mingle with other birds that came to our yard. If I know for sure that she will never fly upward and stay close to the ground, that would be possible. But we'd never know.

I wouldn't wish to keep a caged animal with me - even if she was allowed to fly free all over the house, she would still be, in a way, caged. I don't know if I can keep myself from letting her fly free at some point.

That's why I would like her to go to somebody who is OK with her being in a confined space. She may well be very happy, because there are others just like her, in this person's place. 

If she stays with me, I will let her have some supervised freedom, meaning I will always be nearby to make sure somebody can at least scream if any danger presents itself.

I keep saying it, but here I go again. I really, really appreciate everyone of you for taking your valuable time to read my thread. Thank you, Demi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

demi said:


> I do thank every one of you for your help and advice.
> *I didn't want to cause dissension amnong you people*.........
> 
> Demi





John_D said:


> Demi,
> 
> * *You didn't cause anything*.
> 
> ...


Hi Demi,
* I'm going to reiterate what John posted as it *is* important that you realize you had absolutely nothing to do with any dssension whatsoever. 

** Yes, sadly, this _has_ happened time & time again. 

Again, wishing you & Fluffy the best. 

Cindy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> My 'advice' Cindy...when I have ngiven it at all, has consistantly had everything to do with trying to help people to not end up with the 'Bird' being dependant on them...a problem for which neither you nor anyone else has had any real insight or understanding as for how to avoid...and a problem which was continuously being presented long before I ever joined Pigeon-Talk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> pdpbison said:
> 
> 
> > My 'advice' Cindy...when I have ngiven it at all, has consistantly had everything to do with trying to help people to not end up with the 'Bird' being dependant on them...a problem for which neither you nor anyone else has had any real insight or understanding as for how to avoid...and a problem which was continuously being presented long before I ever joined Pigeon-Talk.
> ...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Jay3 said:
> 
> 
> > Leaving your hype about spin-offs and petty baiting aside...
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I don't want anything more to do with trying to rebuttal or defend myself against the uglyness and manipulations you and others have dumped into Demi's Thread.


That's it...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If Demi's dove IS a Ringneck Dove, it should not be released period nor should it have even supervised free fly time. ASSuming this is a ringneck, it was never intended to be a free bird and wouldn't survive as one for more than a couple of days. 

Let's stop with all the nit picking and zapping of one another and get back to figuring out what is the best option for Demi's dove.

I'm way behind on checking the board here today, so if someone would care to post where Demi and this bird are located, that would be helpful. In the meantime, it is POINTLESS to discuss how, why, whether this bird should be released. If it is a ringneck, it should NOT be released.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> If Demi's dove IS a Ringneck Dove, it should not be released period nor should it have even supervised free fly time. ASSuming this is a ringneck, it was never intended to be a free bird and wouldn't survive as one for more than a couple of days.
> 
> Let's stop with all the nit picking and zapping of one another and get back to figuring out what is the best option for Demi's dove.
> 
> ...


It's taken care of.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Hi everyone,

I know that every one of you really care about this little dove of mine, and about me too. Because I know all of you mean well, it's hard to see you AT each other.
It's up to me and whoever inexperienced person who would be benefitting from all of your advices, to decide exactly what's to be done for our birds. We all live in different parts of the world, with different circumstances, and have done just about everything differently, if slightly, including how to handle and deal with animals, specifically our beloved pigeons, doves, etc. We have to read and understand your advices, and see which one we should, or could, use, to best accomplish our goals, sometimes.

I thought that pigeon babies had about 40 to 50 days to leave nest, sometimes even as long as 60 days and by that time, they are fully grown, and trained to start up their own lives. But, this one turned out to be a dove, which not only took me by surprise, but also took me to the place completely unknown because her nature is so different from how my first pigeon was.

Whereas Peep sat quietly and let me clean him up after eating, this one without fail wants to be off somewhere and wouldn't sit still long enough to let me wipe her beaks. I thought ( this is a real laughing matter that I didn't intend to tell all of you, but..... ) she had strange growths on her throat, 2 long horizontal bumps, that worried me to no end. One day, I just couldn't stand not knowing what it was, using warm-water-soaked wash towel, and started to gently knead them to see underneath the feathers. Well, they turned out to be the dried up, accumulated KT formula that made the feathers stuck together. It was because they were so symmetrical that confused me and made me think that she had some mysterious disease. They washed away clean after a while. Her temperament is exactly like Phil described to me, so that was really helpful. The first pigeon and this one are night and day, in comparison.

I have new questions for you, about those feet of theirs. The three claws in the front; the inside ones that face each other, are they supposed to bend inward sideways, sometimes even locking with each other? She has no problem perching and scratching herself on the face, neck, etc., etc. but, I never noticed how they looked, and these ones look so strange. I would really appriceate it if you would tell me that they are normal being that way, or not.

Also, can I give her dried (red)beans? Are they good for them? I know that some of you use corn, peas, and lentils, but I happen to have dried red beans at hand. How about bread crumbs (biscuit that has yeast in it)?

By the way, Terry, why is it that Ringneck Doves are not to be released? I did see them on the line outside, yesterday, although they could belong to somebody. Are they naturally so fragil or something? 
Demi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Demi,

Your description of the feet/toes sounds like something is at least a bit amiss. Could you post a picture?

Ringneck doves are not strong in the flying department .. not very fast and not able to sustain flight for any length of time and have little or no homing ability. And, as much as I love them, they are pretty much dumb as dirt .. don't have a clue about what to watch out for .. ie .. not much in the street smarts department.

I have about 20 of them as my personal pets, and I totally adore them. I would not, however, consider even for a moment letting them out to free fly and never would consider releasing them .. they wouldn't last a day here where I am. The hawk would have a field day or my own dogs would get them.

White "doves" that are used for ceremonial releases are well trained and well conditioned homing pigeons that can and do have the flying ability, smarts, and homing ability needed to safely get back home. Sadly, lots of unknowing people will go to a local swap meet, pet store, or a local ethnic market and buy white ringneck doves to release at a joyous or a sad occasion. I cannot tell you how many doves I get in from scenarios like this .. ten bought at a swap meet for release at the funeral of a loved one .. how awful for the doves and the humans .. the doves just sat on the ground paralyzed with fear. A family member finally realized that something was dreadfully wrong and got the rest of the family to help catch up all the doves .. not exactly what was intended but at least the doves survived.

I have gotten in three from the same woman in the last three days .. possibly somebody in her neighborhood had an "event" and let a bunch of doves go or they were intentionally released by the owner for whatever the reason or escaped. Bless her heart .. she has brought me each one.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Is It A Pigeon Or A Dove ..*

Demi,

I just looked back at the original pictures .. are we SURE whether this is a pigeon or a dove? And if a dove what type it is?

A current picture would be really helpful.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Demi,
> 
> I just looked back at the original pictures .. are we SURE whether this is a pigeon or a dove? And if a dove what type it is?
> 
> ...


I posted pictures back in *posts 34 & 35*, I believe it was, of the species of doves that live in our, meaning me & Demi, area. I asked Demi to take a look at them to get a better idea of what type of dove she has. 

Fluffy should be old enough by now to have some kind of markings on her to identify what type of species she is.

Does she have a white strip along each wing? Doves she have the Mourning Dove spots? Does she resemble an Inca dove? It *really* shouldn't be that hard to figure it out. 

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Here are the pictures once again!*

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=319375&postcount=34

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=319388&postcount=35


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Cindy said



> It really shouldn't be that hard to figure it out.


Demi already said



> There were two adult doves that looked exactly like she does, with two black half moon shaped lines on both sides of their neck.


What do we see in the pictures Cindy has posted? Is that two line on each side, or one line on each side? Anyone got a copy of Petersen's handy? 

As Terry says, Ringnecks (domesatic type) aren't going to do well on the outside. Eurasian Collared Doves have been very successful in colonising pretty much all of Europe, and a large chunk of the USA - they had been sighted at least as far west as Texas some years back. C'mon, any birdwatchers - have the ECDs got as far as Arizona or not? 

If this bird cannot stand on a flat surface with its toes spread and straight out then it should not be released like that. The problem causing any 'strangeness' needs to be identified and resolved, if it can be reso9lved. Otherwise it is possible that it may get worse, with the bird's feet ending up like a 'ball' of toes and him/her being unable to perch or walk properly.

To Phil: there's a saying "If you can't take it, don't dish it out!"

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,



> The three claws in the front; the inside ones that face each other, are they supposed to bend inward sideways, sometimes even locking with each other?


I have seen this in a lot of the Eurasian collared doves that I rescue, particularly when they have a calcium deficiency. I am having to hand raise one now, and one of its feet is causing me concern. At the moment it is receiving calcium supplements. I will post a photo, perhaps we can compare? 

Just as a matter of interest is your dove's tail OK? A lot of my rescues with a calcium deficiency also have pipey tail feathers...this is when the tail hasn't unfurled from the feather sheath.

As to whether this is a domestic ringneck or a wild Eurasian collared dove...did Dena tell you where she same from? If she was hatched in the wild, then it is extremely unlikely that she is the offspring of two domestic doves.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

John_D said:


> * *As Terry says, Ringnecks (domesatic type) aren't going to do well on the outside.*
> 
> ** *Eurasian Collared Doves have been very successful in colonising pretty much all of Europe, and a large chunk of the USA* - they had been sighted at least as far west as Texas some years back. C'mon, any birdwatchers -
> 
> ...


* Last evening Terry emailed me with a couple links regarding doves. 

** I had titled the picture of the dove with the black ring on the back of it's back as:
Eurasian Collared Doves
(AKA Ring Neck Dove)

After reviewing the links, I feel I was mistaken on the title. And it was misleading. By all accounts it should have read Eurasian Collared Dove only. The title is now corrected.

I have been referring to these particular birds, which do reside in our backyard, as Ring Neck Doves without ever being corrected.  
I would really appreciate it, when someone sees something that I have posted that is _definitely_ incorrect, such as the identity of a bird, PLEASE correct me. Believe me, I can take it.   Thanks. 

*** Yes, I believe they have, John. The dove pictures I posted were all taken from our backyard.

My apologies if I've only added to the confusion of trying to identify Demi's bird by placing an incorrect title one of my pictures.

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

> My apologies if I've only added to the confusion of trying to identify Demi's bird by placing an incorrect title one of my pictures.
> 
> Cindy


Fact is, Cindy, they do get referred to (even over here sometimes) as ring necked doves, so the confusion is already out there. I guess that may simply be because, like some domestic bred doves I saw recently, the 'pet' kind can look virtually identical.... and, I'm sure, they do escape now and then.

John


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## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

the Audubon Handbook lists :
Ringed Turtle-Dove (Streptopelia risoria)
Robin-sized
Urban Areas;Residential Areas and Parks

Field marks:11". An introduced species with wild populations in some southern cities and towns. Domesticated for many centuries; today's wild populations probably descended from escaped caged birds. Typically in parks, gardens and residential areas. Often perches on telephone wires. Approximate size and shape of the Mourning Dove, but much paler.

ADULTS: pale tan overall, with head and underparts somewhat paler then upperparts; narrow black collar around back of neck; bill dark; tail rounded with white corners. Immatures similar to adults, but may lack black neck collar. 
Gives a soft, cooing coo-curroooo.

SIMILAR SPECIES:
Mourning dove much darker; tail pointed, edged with white, lacks black neck collar.

RANGE:
A domestic species, escaped and introduced usually in or around cities: Los Angeles and S. Calif; Miami, Tampa, and S Florida; Arizona and Alabama.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> After reviewing the links, I feel I was mistaken on the title. And it was misleading. By all accounts it should have read Eurasian Collared Dove only. The title is now corrected.
> 
> I have been referring to these particular birds, which do reside in our backyard, as Ring Neck Doves without ever being corrected.
> I would really appreciate it, when someone sees something that I have posted that is definitely incorrect, such as the identity of a bird, PLEASE correct me. Believe me, I can take it. Thanks.


Hi Cindy,

As John has said there is no reason for correction, the dove goes by many names...I think more people in the UK call them ring necked doves that eurasian collared doves, but we know what they are referring to and that is all that matters. The species is actually officially called _streptopelia decaocto _ - "decaocto" because that is supposed to be what their call sounds like, although others (including me) hear it as "uni_ted!_". But how many people would know what you were talking about if you called them that? That name is also so prone to mistakes...I usually start off by calling them "_streptococcus _decaocto" before correcting myself.

Additional confusion in the UK is that some people still refer to the wood pigeon as the ring dove...

Rainbow...sounds like we have yet another candidate for what Demi's dove could be! At least we keep learning on this forum...when I joined I had no idea that collared doves existed, I had never noticed them.

Cynthia


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## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, to further confuse everybody!! 
Simon& Schuster's GUIDE TO PET BIRDS, by Matthew M. Vriends lists the 
STREPTOPELIA RISORIA as the Barbary dove, blond ringdove, ringdove, domestic ringdove, domestic collared dove, and fawn dove.
This is the dove that is commonly sold in USA pet stores as the RING-NECKED DOVE. Many of these doves have escaped and do live in the wild. Vriends recommends the doves be brought indoors for winters as they ''must be housed indoors at a temperature of about 10 degrees C.
Perhaps the need for winter warmth is the reason they thrive only in this country in the far southern states.
I believe Demi's dove could be off spring of a pair of ''wild'' ring-necked doves. I believe if the parents had been ABLE to raise it , it could have survived outside but since it was doing so poorly, it needed to be rescued, I believe it should be kept indoors as a pet. JMO


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Yes, she does have*

black lines on both sides of her neck surrounded by thin white lines, and her underside is very pale - almost whitish.

It makes me feel much better to learn that 'they are dumb'. At least that nature was in her, and not all becasue of what I did or didn't do!!

She doesn't have much trouble, it seems to me, walking or perching, but those inner toes do curl inward, not downward like I would expect them to, naturally.

Just until yesterday, every time I gave her formula ( or malt-o meal ), I mixed in a small amount of ground oyster shells, thinking that that would supplement her calcium intake. And also I have been giving her vitamin drop, regularly. Now that she is weaned, I would coat her seeds with the powdered oyster shells, but would it be enough? Should I give her more calcium in different ways? Would that really solve her problem with the inner toes?
Demi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can put a small dish of oyster shell in her cage and let her eat her own.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Some Ringneck Dove Photos ..*

Just for comparison/information here are a few Ringneck Dove photos I took today .. they are the last ones in the series.

http://www.rims.net/2008Sep27

The first ringneck dove photo is kind of the "standard" color aside from white. The others are colors/patterns that have been developed over the years. These are all rescues.

Terry


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*pictures of Fluffy*

I have altogether 7 pictures.

I hope these come through. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*more of the same*

Here are 3 more.

Her inside toes are curled. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*one more picture of Fluffy*

I may get better at taking pictures some day.

This is the last picture, for now. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

When I looked closer, even the last toe on the left side is a little bent sideway. Demi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks VERY much for the photos, Demi. Fluffy looks like a Ringneck Dove to me AND those toes need to be gotten into a bootie or snow shoe to see if they will straighten out.

ASSuming I am right about him/her being a Ringneck, then the bird is not releasable in my opinion because of the species of bird. Add the toe/foot problem to the situation, and the bird is definitely not releasable.

So .. where do we go from here?

Does Fluffy look like this bird to you?










Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Demi .. are the toenails really, really long? If so, that might be the whole deal ..

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*From Demi*

A picture of Fluffy's feet.
The other pictures, Demi aren't clear enough to post.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Demi, where did Dena get Fluffy?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Can't resist adding my 2 cents...Fluffy does look like a Ring Neck...

The first time I became aware of them was at a friend's home a few years ago. She had a wild pair that would visit regularly. They were just beautiful, pale cream colored with the "ring." They performed a mating ritual so, we figured one male/one female. 

They ate seeds from our hands and then would fly to my friend's potted plants. Since she didn't want them in the pots, she would get up and shoo them off. They would return! Finally, after a couple of "shoos," one flew up to the roof and started to laugh! I did not know they made that sound and just cracked up laughing! Almost like he/she was saying, "hahahaha, we just love messin' with you!" 

My friend only lives about 10 miles away, yet I have never seen a Ring Neck where I live...only Incas, Mourning and White Wings. Very odd.

I saw my friend not too long ago and she said that same pair are still around! 

Best of everything, Demi...I hope Fluffy does well! Sure is a cutie! 

Hugs
Shi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Yes*

Terry, she does look like the picture you posted. Except that her feet are not as bright red like this picture, and she has more feathers on her tail.

And yes, I think, she has long nails but then I don't know if they are too long.

I called Dena more than twice, to ask and report how Fluffy is doing, but for some reason, she has not called back. ( I left messages to please call me back. ) And I really hate to push it. Fluffy was brought into the animal hospital where she works as an assistant, that morning when she called, by someone, I blieve. And that's all I know now. I am still hoping to find out more later.

I do see the same type of doves on the line regularly - a couple ( male and female) it seems. They could be her parents except that Fluffy may have come from different area. About a week ago, I did see lots of doves in different parts of Kingman, on the way home from some place. I don't know what kind exactly, though.

That's why I never thought she couldn't be released. But it is absolutely all right with me that she stays with us for now as a house bird, now that I know why and it does make sense. I would not want to endanger this poor little bird.

She only squeaks quietly right now, and doesn't seem to know how to make any other sound.

I would like Cindy to adopt her in the future if she still feels like it, Cindy, that is.

How can I treat her feet myself? Would the vet wrap work? Do I have to take her to the vet to get supplemental calcium? If you could tell me what I can do AT HOME to remedy her condition, it would be most helpful, because my funds are low at this time.

She doesn't like to stay in the cage. After a little while she starts pacing back and forth. Do you think I should ignore that and keep her in the cage? Right now she has the run of the house, though only the livingroom and the dining area which are connected. I have towel covers all over. She loves to perch on the music stand which is a heavy duty kind with towel cover. The edge of which is just thick enough to get hold of comfortably by her feet, I think. She sleeps on it and spends a lot of time preening on it.

Thanks in advance for your advice!! Demi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> she does look like the picture you posted. Except that her feet are not as bright red like this picture, and she has more feathers on her tail.


Please compare to photos of our new rescue (excuse the fact that she is plastered with seed) , below. Young Collared doves have thin brownish feet, they remind me of spiders.



> How can I treat her feet myself? Would the vet wrap work?


Yes you can, but be very gentle and if she starts to pant stop immediately.

We call this the foot-glove:

Cut out a piece of vetwrap that is twice the size of the foot. Stand one of the Fluffy's feet on it and stretch the toes out. Fold the vetwrap over and press it down between the toes. Leave it on (or keep replacing it if it gets wet) for three weeks.

Just a comment, dove's feet are not always flat, they are designed for perscing and so will adjust according to the surface that they are on.



> Do I have to take her to the vet to get supplemental calcium?


No. I buy calcium syrup on line, they might also sell it at pharmacies.



> She doesn't like to stay in the cage. After a little while she starts pacing back and forth. Do you think I should ignore that and keep her in the cage?


No. Collared doves *hate* being locked in cages. We used to have one in a indoor cage, if we left the door open she was happy to stay there but if we closed the door she would get very agitated.

I keep referring to her as a collared dove as I think this is the most likely case and because that is the species of dove that I am most familiar with.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Demi,
> *When Fluffy is ready to be released, I would like to invite her to come live with our backyard buddies.*
> Cindy





AZWhitefeather said:


> *she does has an open invitation to come live in our backyard.*
> Cindy





demi said:


> *I would like Cindy to adopt her in the future* if she still feels like it, Cindy, that is.
> 
> Demi


Demi,
Unfortunately, I am unable to adopt Fluffy as a 'pet'. 

As noted above, releasing her to our backyard flock is doable, however under the circumstances I don't even know if that's possible now.

Cindy


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Yes! Cynthia*

Fluffy looks exactly like this picture.

I tried to cut her nail ( one) a little shorter, but she moved all of a sudden and got hurt, so I will not try that again. Even with a help from my daughter, she will not sit still for 5 seconds. So, I gave up.

When I put vet wrap on her feet, do I involve all three front toes, or, just 
two, bad one and the next one, would be enough? When I do it, do I let the nails poke out from it? She scratches her face area with her toes a lot.
Maybe I can cut out three tiny holes and let her nails out.

Cindy,

It's all right for us to keep Fluffy. She just is not going to have any bird friend for a while, but she does have our puppy who thinks she is her sister. Now I know that she IS supposed to be kept as a pet, I am OK with the idea of keeping her as is. I am not even going to try to let her watch and learn the way of the wild birds, she can be the way she wants to be. But I think I will let her take a bird bath once in a while in the sun.

I am a lot more relaxed with her care now. I never knew that there were such bird as domesticated doves who could not be released.

I must repair and improve the kennel for Fluffy.......... 

Thanks everyone!!
Demi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,

Best to put all the toes in their correct position. I wouldn't make holes for the claws, they will be bound to "poke through naturally" enough to allow Fluffy to scratch if she needs to.

If you ever need to reduce claw length, try a nail file, that is safer than cutting. If you accidentally cut too fat uo a claw it can cause aserious bleed.

Even if Fluffy is a collared dove she should not be released, her chances of survival which would be short enough in the wild would be even further reduced by her having imprinted on humans. Even doves that have not been imprinted on humans have an average lifespan of two to three years. As John and I have mentioned before , we have a pet collered dove, she is quite happy being a pet and shows no desire to leave the aviary or to mix with other wild doves.

Cynthia


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thank you, Cynthia,

I will do my best to keep Fluffy happy. She does seem content most of the time, now. She is becoming very beautiful. Her eyes look very round and pretty.

When they are preening, do they eat the stuff that comes off their feathers?

She only pecked at the cuttle bone a few times half-heartedly, only once. Do they actually peck it to eat? Wouldn't it be hard to do so when it's so stiff?
Demi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm glad Fluffy is going to be kept as a pet! Thank you, Demi!

Terry


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thank YOU ALL!!

For helping me with this little dove.

My family is very happy to know that Fluffy will not be going away. I am still thinking of a way to get her a companion in the near future.....
Demi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,

Maybe a domestic ring neck dove? 

Cynthia


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Yes,*

I think the same kind would be nice, though I have no idea at this point, how to get one.

If it's meant to be it will happen.......

In the mean time, I will work on getting the aviary ready for her use ( a few hours during the day to be outside in the sun). She does have the full use of the garage. Although our garage is small, it's plenty big enough for her, I think.

She seems to be happy there, with 3 or 4 different perching places.

When the aviary is complete, I will try to send the picture, with her in it!!

Demi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Remember Dermi that she is a social creature and that your family is her flock and so she needs to be with you all rather than isolated. Isolating her would be cruel.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I must avoid endangering her in the kitchen area, Charis.

Our dining area is next to the kitchen and she flew over to the stove top. Unless I have some kind of barrier, it is dangerous for her being there.

As it is, I am going back and forth between the garage and the kitchen, doing this and that always fussing with her water and food, doing laundry, cleaning the dog litter, etc., etc.

She gets more attention than our puppy. She doesn't fly onto our head or shoulders as soon as she sees us any more, except once in a while. I think she is fine. Because I have to make sure that our puppy doesn't make her a play toy, whenever Slippers goes into the garage, I go there to check, also. I end up spending a lot of time with Fluffy, actually more than I would like to. And the rest of the family, even when I was thinking that she shouldn't have much contact with humans, kept playing with her a lot, too.

I told Dena today when she called, that I really would like to get a companion for her, but she said that we don't know if Fluffy is a boy or a girl, and even if there is another Ringneck dove that I could have, we don't know whether that is a boy or a girl.... And two boys don't make very good friends, she says. 

I wanted her to stay close to me at night in a cage, but it is absolutely impossible to keep her in a cage. She looked like she was going to start pecking at the cage, after pacing to and fro. She already tasted the freedom of having the whole garage to herself to fly in, and perch wherever she feels like, and so to put her in a confined space like a cage would seem cruel.

As long as I don't have somebody who is VERY willing to have her, as a pet, who has an extra room where other birds are also, she will be with us. I have to do the best I can with what I have here.

Don, a friend of mine who has two exotic pet birds, has a book on how to toilet train a bird. He said that he would look for it for me, but I don't want to depend on that. I may go to the libray and see if I can find such a book.

Our living room is connected to the dining area which is on the other side of the kitchen, and it is hard to keep her safe when I am using the stove. As it gets cooler, instead of using the humidifier, I would be boiling water to have moisture from the steam, constantly. ( I boil the filtered water.)

She did spend a lot of time in the dining area before, but, other than that she could see us, she was always alone preening, eating, or sleeping. Do you still think she NEEDS to see us around the clock? 

As it is, I think our family including the puppy, spends more than enough time with her even though she spends most of her time in the garage.
I am a stay home mother, right now, so naturally I get to spend a lot more time with our pets than some of you.
Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear Pigeon-Talk friends,
This past Monday afternoon, our dove flew away.
She had been living in our garage, seemingly content, with our family including our puppy constantly coming and going to talk and to interact with her. I had been taking her out on my shoulder to the back yard many times just to get some fresh air. (She had never shown any sign of wanting to fly away.) Last week I opened the garage door and took her to the mail box which is maybe just 20 feet away from the door of the garage, at the end of the drive way. I put her on the mail box about 4 feet high, and tried to distance myself so that she would come back to me. She wouldn't even wait for me to walk away but got back on my shoulder immediately. So, I thought she had no desire to fly up into the sky.
On Monday, I wanted to take her to the green field about 1 1/2 block away ( about 3 or 4 streets away - each street is separated by 2 houses back to back with the alley in between). I had her in my left hand and held her lightly with my right hand. As I was rounding the corner to the next street, she wiggled out of my arms and took off flying to the next street, to the second house from the end with tall trees still full of leaves. She was so quick that I lost sight of her in the trees and couldn't see her. I went up and down the street ( with 8 houses on both sides, to a block ) for a while. After I came home, I was joined by my daughter and went to where I saw her last and searched again. We saw so many ringneck doves on the lines that I wouldn't even know which one was ours. Also, there were so many dogs in people's yards that it was not easy to go into the back alley, with all the dogs barking so loudly. 
We left the garage door open until after dark. I took out the screen from the garage window and left the lights on to see if she would find her way back there. We have not seen her since. Though, because I have been putting out water and seeds in our yards, we do see numerous pigeons and ringneck doves. If I could see the feet closely and find that one of the toe on each side is curved, I could recognize her as ours, but so far none of them has curved toes.
My family and our puppy were so used to seeing her in the garage, and she would perch on our shoulders almost as soon as she saw us. Even though she has become as friendly as this, I was curious to find out if she wouldn't want to fly in a much bigger area. She was flying inside the garage moving from one perch to another that I hang using tree branches. She had no problem walking, perching, or flying there. I was still curious to find out if she really didn't have any desire to fly in a much bigger area. So, I picked the time so that this green field didn't have anybody but me. This way, she would see only the green grass and me in it, making it easier to fly back to me, just as the pigeon baby we had before did. Well, I didn't even get as far as 2 minutes away from my house. Distance-wise, there are about 3 houses in between where she was last seen and my house.
We are hoping that she decided to go with other doves and doing all right. She may even find a mate and start up her own family. I have gone back to the next street every morning and evening since and looked around, but it is too difficult to pick her out of so many of the same kind of birds. I thought that maybe she is a little friendlier than others and would remain on the line when she heard the familier sound from us, and called to all the doves like I did at home, but eventually they all fly away when I get too close.
At this point in time, I have absolutely no idea where she is, nor how she is doing.
So, this will probably conclude my update on her. But, I will keep my eyes on all the doves that come to my yard and my neighborhood lines, and if I ever see the one with the crocked toes, I will be too happy not to report back to you. With all my appreciation, Demi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you for the udpate, Demi. I'm sorry that Fluffy took off and do so hope that s/he is and will do OK out there in the big wide world. If s/he does come home, please do let us know.

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, I too am sorry he left. Hope he will be okay. Maybe you will see him out there with the others. And if you do, we want to know all about it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,




Well...sounds like she felt ready, and things may have worked out just fine.



If there are plenty of her Species on Wires and elsewhere, she'll figure it out...make friends, perch with them, land to graze with them, and so on.


So...your job is done, and she's decided to join-the-World.


I think she'll do just fine.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am sorry, Demi, I hope that she finds her way beack. If you are going to release a bird that you have had since a fledgling it is best to do it in yiur own garden and make food available. Collared doves do not have the homing instinct of pigeons.

Also, unlike feral pigeons, collared doves are not flock birds, they tend to stay in pairs rather than fly, perch, roost and eat together like feral pigeons do, but hopefully she will follow the other doves to find food. I have numerous collared doves visit my garden every day and am convinced that they catch sight of other doves flying in this direction and come to check the food situation as I try to make it difficult for hawks to see them feeding so the doves would not be likely to see the food from a distance.

On the positive side, collared doves have spread around the world pretty quickly in the last 50 years or so, which shows that they are survivors and are able to find a niche for themselves, and plenty of food, despite competition from established species.

Cynthia


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Thanks everyone*

For your encouraging words!!

It's so easy to think that she was so totally lost, didn't know what to do, was a little too slow to defend herself, and consequently, was attacked by a cat or a dog and perished within half an hour. But since I really don't know, I will just keep hoping that she did make it and now is with other dove(s), not only surviving, but thriving well.

If there is a next time, I will try to remember all the things all of you taught me, in raising, or rescuing a bird. I wish I could make myself invisible so that they can be cared for but wouldn't see me.......

Finding out that all kinds of birds live around here, including lots of mourning doves, and ringneck doves, chance of her survival is not so bad, I am guessing. 

One thing I was wrong, that I was corrected yesterday, is that the bigger birds that came to eat in my yard which I thought were 'cactus wrens', turned out to be (probably) mocking birds. We have thrashers, too.
I AM learning about different kinds of birds.

A week ago, someone called me to rescue a 'burrowing owl'!!! I have never even heard of the name. It fortunately had a happy ending. This bird was not really injured from the way it took off, after flying low from place to place being chased after by people who thought it was. (I wouldn't have known how to even feed it, any way. I was going to take it to the animal hospital, if I could put it in a box.)

I do like to feed certain kinds of birds, especially doves but, to selectively feed them is not easy. They all seem to flock to whatever food that is available, and enjoy eating it! The bigger ones, like pigeons push other birds away, so I put out seeds in different part of the yard. Doves and smaller birds do come down onto the porch ( cement slab) to peck food, but pigeons do not but stay in the middle of the yard, so I do get to see many doves and smaller birds every day. It makes my day to see those creatures!! Demi


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