# Help, young frillback hen down



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Unknown lethargy in young female pigeon. 
We have six frillbacks......a pair and their offspring from last summer in our outdoor loft in NJ. All have been healthy, and they are a quiet breed without much quarreling etc. The offspring are two hens and two cocks but they have not really matured or showed much mating behavior yet which is normal with frillbacks and with the season. 
The youngest hen, hatched in July, did not look "right" starting Friday. She seemed a little quieter and less inclined to fly than normal. Reminded me of a hen I had years ago would calcium problems right after laying an egg but this hen has never layed yet and showed no sign of laying before now. 
Prior to this the weather suddenly had become wet (A lot of rain in short time) and much colder than it has been (it is now seasonable, down to freezing). The coop is rainproof but certainly the air was damp for those days. It has been clear and sunny (though down past freezing at night) since. They have a flypen attached with hardware cloth that prevents rodents and other creatures from getting in. They get fed a good quality pigeon mix and have red grit plus oyster shell at all times. 
We let them out to fly, on occasion, generally once or twice a week for 15 minutes or so with us right by them. 
Anyway, she seem to improve somewhat on Saturday and looked pretty good, if not 100% normal, yesterday. I put out fresh grit on Saturday and she seemed to eat a lot of that. In the loft it was hard to tell how much she was eating and her poops but will see the latter soon. This evening she looked terrible, could not fly. She did drink but did not want to eat much. 
I just went out and got her, put her in a cat carrier and took her inside the house where it is warm. She is standing but looks weak. Her throat is clear, eyes are clear, breathing is fine. She has not been wormed (I have wormout gel). Other birds looking and acting completely fine and normal. 
I do not have a suitable scale but when picking her up she seems maybe a little light but it might just be cause she is not struggling much. Any ideas what may going on here and how to proceed??


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## sdymacz (Aug 30, 2010)

When did You worm them last. 

I must've skipped that line( She has not been wormed )

If she is going light it could be pathogens like E.coli and cocci or Canker, Hexamitiasis

You had some birds at the show in november

Is her plumage puffed up

Post a photo please of bird and dropping


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I see you didnt get much help here Chris. I'm glad you got lots of advice on the frillback site HA!

I hope she comes right, keeping her warm and stress free will help are you going to try the electrolites?

Luke


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Survived the night but hasn't improved. Poops look really good but small and not as many as they should be. She is slightly puffed but not very much. 

She is not one of the birds that was at the show but with those birds. I did give her water with a pinch of salt and sugar last night. She obviously pecked at her food but did not eat much last night (left light on with her)


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I have Spartrix, worm-out gel, and Amoxicillinum on hand. I can get to a pet store and get the fish or bird antiboiotics they sell. Amoxicillinum is a 10% powder. Recommend 1 teaspoon per gallon but anyone no percentage amount to mix if I make smaller batch?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris, what fish tonic works on pigeons? Whats the chemical? I have heard it mentioned on here weeks ago and I forgot to write it down.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Luke there are a couple of antibiotic compounds they sell at the fish store for fish diseases. I will have to look again as I don't know what off hand. BTW, do you ever sleep, LOL? 
I took some frozen corn and rehydrated it with a pinch of salt and pinch of sugar in the warm water. I drained off the water and popped about 15 kernels down her throat. I then mixed up the Amoxicillinum (wasn't thinkng earlier) as per direction. Squirted about two eye-droppers full of that into her and replaced her little cup of drinking water with the rest of the solution. 
It is quiet here on the board!!


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I should mention she did have a little more "fight" in her than last night though not normal. 
Any advice appreciated!!


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I think if her poop is solid she will be ok. A light dose of wormer may help her gain appetite. I never sleep. I dont work anymore so got plenty of time on my hands, hence all the pigeons  I'm totally obsessed. Today I spent the whole day watching, feeding, cleaning and talking to you guys lol


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Still hoping some of the pigeon health experts that are on this board regularly will provide some input. Is there more I should be doing? Is the Amoxocillin good?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Have you wormed her? I've never used worm-out gel, so not sure if its too harsh for a bird that's not feeling well. I use pyrantil (stongid), its mild but effective and safe to use on a bird that's sick.
The amoxicillin, you could cut down to 1/4 tsp per quart of water. Is she drinking on her own? That's why I like pills better....easier to dose. The powder preparations are usually for treating a whole loft.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I think the 'fish' med your talking about is metronidazole (fishzole), used to treat canker. Your spartrix is basically the same thing, 'Carnidazole'...it's in the same family.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Should I actually check for worms before worming? I do have a scope. Poops were well formed and colored. I am at work now but can check the ingredients of the worm-out when I get home. I did give the Amoxicillinum this morning (mixed like you said, I wasn't thinking earlier). She was drinking the past few days......don't know if she was drinking last night and that is why I decided to give her extra with the dropper to be sure and to get some of the Amoxicillinum in her. I will stress that her eyes and throat look clear but she is not up to par. Going light (which is caued by??)? BTW, if I continue the Amoxicillinum how long is it good for at room temp after it is mixed in solution? Should I mixed a fresh batch twice a day, once a day, mix a quart and keep it refigerated or....???


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Woodnative said:


> Should I actually check for worms before worming? I do have a scope. Poops were well formed and colored. I am at work now but can check the ingredients of the worm-out when I get home. I did give the Amoxicillinum this morning (mixed like you said, I wasn't thinking earlier). She was drinking the past few days......don't know if she was drinking last night and that is why I decided to give her extra with the dropper to be sure and to get some of the Amoxicillinum in her. I will stress that her eyes and throat look clear but she is not up to par. Going light (which is caued by??)? BTW, if I continue the Amoxicillinum how long is it good for at room temp after it is mixed in solution? Should I mixed a fresh batch twice a day, once a day, mix a quart and keep it refigerated or....???


I would mix a new batch daily and keep it refrigerated.
If you know how to read a fecal float, I would check for roundworm and coccidia first. Whenever I have a bird go light like that....and it's usually a young bird, I bring them inside, put plain paper in cage, heating pad on low, warm water w/dash of salt and sugar, worm them with pyrantil, and give them Albon (for coccidia). 99% of the time, they poop out worms and perk right up.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

The worm out gel I have, according to the internet, contains: "The unique gel formulation, containing *Praziquantel and Oxfendazole* for the treatment of thread worm (capilliaria spp.), Tapeworm (Raillientina spp. Choanotaenia spp.), Caecal worm (Heterakis Gallinarum), Hook worm (Acuaria spp.) ? 
Should I give her this (this evening)? If so, should I continue or discontinue the Amoxicillinum?? Should I give her anything else (garlic, vitatimin etc.) at the same time??? Thanks for your help everyone!
Also, since her dropping are solid I assume not coccidiosis(?). Should I forcefeed her too if she has not eaten much by this evening?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Woodnative said:


> The worm out gel I have, according to the internet, contains: "The unique gel formulation, containing *Praziquantel and Oxfendazole* for the treatment of thread worm (capilliaria spp.), Tapeworm (Raillientina spp. Choanotaenia spp.), Caecal worm (Heterakis Gallinarum), Hook worm (Acuaria spp.) ?
> Should I give her this (this evening)? If so, should I continue or discontinue the Amoxicillinum?? Should I give her anything else (garlic, vitatimin etc.) at the same time??? Thanks for your help everyone!
> Also, since her dropping are solid I assume not coccidiosis(?). Should I forcefeed her too if she has not eaten much by this evening?


I've never used that wormer, so I don't feel comfortable about using it on a compromised bird. Roundworms are most common, and I don't see that it treats them.
It wouldn't hurt to give her the amoxicillin, but I would try to find some pyrantil (most vets have it to treat puppies and kittens). In the meantime, I would keep her warm and make sure she is eating and drinking. I don't give vitamins or probiotics until they are done with meds.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

According to Foy's site it treat roundworms. I got my first off statement off another site. However, I will wait on the wormer unless someone here has experience otherwise.


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

This pyrantil, Pet co has it but for dogs. Should we use this on her, and if so at what dose


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

really it is hard to give advice when one does not know what is the problem..that is where a vet comes in. now if your going to guess and just give meds you think may help..then I would not give them together..she is already down so that would not be wise IMO.. if I had to guess stay with the antibiotic follow up with probiotics and then see if she improves..if she does not..then wait a week if you can and deworm her..being very careful of the amount given and go by the directions carefully.. follow up with vitamins and calcium..she may be of laying age soon.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Experienced pigeon folks here seem to know much much more than my vet about pigeon, and that is why I have tried to include as much detail as possible on the bird, background, and symptoms. If Pyrantil is that mild I would iconsider including it....or not (that is why I am asking), The Pyrantil is being sold for dogs/cats so i don't have a clew to the amount a pigeon should get. She is not eating good or at all.....gave her more warm rehydration solution and some warmed frozen corn and a few peas. She is able to struggle more than yesterday which iI am glad. Keeping her warm and quiet inside. Spirit if she recovers I will certainly follow up with vitamins and calcium. Good advice.
All the other birds in the loft still look great (keeping a close eye) and they will be getting wormed tomorrow. It was time anyway. I am going to do a fecal float later to see if I can see anything.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I always worm *first* before starting any antibiotics. Pyrantel is very gentle on them but effective. And if they poop out a bunch of worms the next day......I know what the problem is. If no worms, I start an antibiotic and send the poop in for a culture & sensitivity. This is what works for me, and I haven't lost any birds doing it.
The pyranel I use is labeled for dogs and cats. The 'strength' is ......
Pyrantel Pamoate 50mg per ML. So the dose for a pigeon is .13 ml one time and repeat in 14 days.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you all. The petshops are closed. I will pcik up some Pyrantel. See how she is tomorrow but it will be good to have on hand. I hope this bird makes it.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Hey Chris did you look at the poop under the microscope? I'm thinking about getting a microscope now.

How she lookin now? antibiotics are sure to help. I'm sure she'll be fine, when the poop is smelly and runny or wierd colour its time to worry a little.

Luke


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

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Here is the miserable patient and her poops. She is wet around the beak from me stuffing moist food into her, that was dry otherwise. She is much prettier in person than this photo makes her look, IMHO!!
She had some more fight this morning, of which I am glad, but is still weak and not eating much (?) on her own yet. I though I had saline at home but do not so I will pick up that for the fecal float today. I will also pick up some Pyrantil today whether or not "we" decide to use it or not. The rest of our flock is being wormed today (with the gel above)as a precaution.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Oops. This photo did not come through right. Here it is.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Anyone out there?? OK, I bought the Pyrantel......it is in tablet form (I could not find it in liquid). The tablets are 113.5mg. Is this water soluble? I could otherwise weigh the correct amount which from above looks like you are trying to get 6.5 mg Pyrantel into them. Is this best given alone, mixed with food, etc.?


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Other sites seem to say about 2-3 mg per bird. MsFreebird what do you think. I have access to an analytical balance so I can weigh out exactly what is needed, even from these tablets.
Still need some guidance if it would still be ok to worm? How to best administer it? Should it be done on an empty crop or with food?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im sorry but I think a bacterial infection would be the worse of the two and if you are guessing on if she has an infection or worms or both, I would use the antibacterial first, that to me seems more important to try first.. the problem with pigeon sites is we can't do any testing.. a vet can., then you would know what to treat for.


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## sdymacz (Aug 30, 2010)

From what i know wet droppings are a sing of one or more things one is young bird sickness which is lack of activity, puffed-up plumage, refusal of feed, swelling of the crop, weight loss, greenish-yellow excrement in puddles, vomiting.

Is she drinking on her own


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings is right, in that if you don't know what you are trying to treat, you can spend a lot of time treating for things she may not even have. Getting a vet to test the droppings can usually be done without having to bring the bird in. I too, if not using a vet, would try a wide spectrum antibiotic before worming. Also, she can have canker without it showing in her throat. I have better luck with Metronidazole (or Fish Zole), then I do with Spartrix. And the frozen defrosted peas would be easier for her to digest than the corn. If she isn't eating on her own, then give 40 to 50 2 or 3 times a day, when her crop empties.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Woodnative said:


> Anyone out there?? OK, I bought the Pyrantel......it is in tablet form (I could not find it in liquid). The tablets are 113.5mg. Is this water soluble? I could otherwise weigh the correct amount which from above looks like you are trying to get 6.5 mg Pyrantel into them. Is this best given alone, mixed with food, etc.?


That's going to be hard with a tablet! Yes, I give mine 5 to 6.5mg, depending on their size and degree of weakness. If their thin and puffed up I give them 5mg.
If you can't get any testing done, I would worm and treat for bacterial infection.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you all for your input!! I will keep you updated. Is it worthwhile sending droppings to someplace like Foy's or is testing at a local Veterinarian better (?). Sdymac what is "young bird sydrome"?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Woodnative said:


> Thank you all for your input!! I will keep you updated. Is it worthwhile sending droppings to someplace like Foy's or is testing at a local Veterinarian better (?). Sdymac what is "young bird sydrome"?


I work at a vet clinic, so I just send them out to our lab that does all our bloodwork, etc. I do a 'culture & sensitivity with salmonella screen' if they don't respond to meds within a couple days.
Don't panic about 'young bird sickness'! When I first got into pigeons, whenever a bird got sick, that's what I thought they had. The most common problems are....worms, coccidia, canker, bacterial infection (e-coli, salmonella).


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

She actually seems to be improving......still thin and needs to eat on her own but far more "life" in her. Fighting back more which is good. I bred and showed Russian Tumblers back back in the early mid 80s. Used to breed some "garden" fantails at that time too. I subscribed to the American Pigeon Journal but no internet back then. Almost never had problems with sickness. This one is new to me!!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Woodnative said:


> She actually seems to be improving......still thin and needs to eat on her own but far more "life" in her. Fighting back more which is good. I bred and showed Russian Tumblers back back in the early mid 80s. Used to breed some "garden" fantails at that time too. I subscribed to the American Pigeon Journal but no internet back then. Almost never had problems with sickness. This one is new to me!!


Amazingly, out of almost 200 birds, I have very few get sick. When I do, its roundworms, coccidia and a couple cases of canker in babies. I had 1 with e-coli last year. That's why I stick to the treating regimen that I use.....it works for me


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Woodnative said:


> Thank you all for your input!! I will keep you updated. Is it worthwhile sending droppings to someplace like Foy's or is testing at a local Veterinarian better (?). Sdymac what is "young bird sydrome"?


I'd bring fresh droppings to a local vet. You'd get a better reading that way than mailing them. Waynette is right about the common ailments. I would treat with Metronidazole and Baytril or something else wide-spectrum.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks MsFreebird. I try to keep a reasonably clean, well-aired loft, good food etc. Prevention goes a long way to keeping pigeons (or any living thing) healthy! I was able to break up the tablet and weigh the appropriate amount, but did not give it to her yet since she does seem to be showing improvement.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if it was young bird sickness IMO she would already be worse or gone by now... it is pretty lethal..so... IMO you are dealing with something else... just give some time for improvement after your treatment and go from there.


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