# ***NOT TO BE RUDE***



## Pigeons R loved (Dec 20, 2001)

NOT TO BE RUDE BUT THIS WEB SITE NEEDS SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE. IT'S KINDA BORING AFTER A WHILE. IS THERE SOMETHING THAT WE COULD DO TO MAKE THIS A LITTLE MORE FUNNER AND ENJOYABLER? WELL LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. Sorry if I have caused any problems. I'm just trying to make a point and help out a little. Thanks and bye
[email protected]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Nick,

No problem. Do you have any ideas for making the site better, more interesting, and/or more enjoyable? We are always open to suggestions and welcome any input from members.

There is usually more activity and a wide variety of topics in the general section for any members that may not go to that section very often. All members are welcome to participate in both the for sale area as well as the general area.

Terry Whatley


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## wildbird (Mar 29, 2002)

Howdi, I think we need a section for sent in pictures.
Pictures of their pigeons, babies, lofts, themselves.... MORE PICTURES!!!!!!!!


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## Pigeons R loved (Dec 20, 2001)

I agree with you....I do think that we could use a spot for pictures. They could be for selling birds,loft pictures...just about any pigeon related picture...it would really be nice. So do you think that we could do that? And how could we make this site a little more active? Lets do this as a Club/Group. Thanks for the replys.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi again,

The picture project is in process. Anyone having pictures that they would like to have posted should e-mail them to me at [email protected] I currently have dozens and dozens of wonderful pictures from our members that I am loading into web pages that will be available to all on my web site. I am still a day or two away from launching the first group of pictures, so stay tuned for the big day.

Terry Whatley


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Here's another thought that has been rolling around my head for awhile. 

Those of you who raise pigeons obviously know about the breeds you raise. Many of us have no clue what all the different breeds are, what their standards are, what their behavior is, what they look like, and so forth. I would like to see the members that know this type of information write some educational posts for the rest of us. 

I rescue pigeons and though most are ferals, I sometimes get in lovely birds that I would like to know what breed they are. Show me a fantail, and I can tell you it's a fantail, but I can't tell you if it is Indian, American, or Syrian <LOL>. Ask me how to tell the difference between a roller and a homer by how they look, and I am lost. I think you get my drift here. I also never seem to know the correct terms for the colors and markings.

Terry Whatley


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## Pigeons R loved (Dec 20, 2001)

I think that 'color and markings' is a big thing that we all need to know. I am not very good with 'color and markings' although I'd like to walk up to a Pigeon and say hey that's a Tri-Gazzi Modena. I have no idea what color that would be. Do you get my drift also? I think that knowing your breeds *prices that they usually run for* and what your buying, also back to the 'color and markings'. So think about that. Thanks a bunch

For once I think that I did something right!
lol 
--Nick


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK!!!! Let's get this going in the For Sale section. I see I am not the only one who is a bit challenged in the "technical" stuff here.

On colors and markings ... do a search for PigeonWatch and then link into their section on this subject. It is quite interesting and informative.

Then, let's try to get something going here .. OK? You folks in the pigeon business need to know this stuff and so do I.

Terry Whatley


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

I'm just curious as to why this stuff is in the "Birds for sale", rather than the General Discussions area? 

If people aren't interested in buying or selling birds, they might skip this folder, and be missing some really good stuff?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good point WhiteWings. If we are able to get these topics going, then they really should be in the general section. Is that OK with everybody?

Terry Whatley


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## Pigeons R loved (Dec 20, 2001)

I think that, that's a better idea. So are we going to move to there?? Thanks -Nick


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK, we have moved to the General section. Who wants to be first at writing us an educational post?

Terry Whatley


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

You're all familiar with those faint white links at the top of the page, right?

Originally, the "Gallery Link" was to be updated monthly with Member Pics, as well as Studio Pics of "Show Standards".

I submitted many photos on behalf of members, in many cases scanning, processing and labeling them. Some were never posted to the Gallery, and, well, the whole Gallery Section just sort of stalled...

Also, there is that dormant "FAQ Section" doing nothing on the forum's opening page...

I think activity by way of a Member's Photo Gallery is a good idea. I think posting photos of pigeons for sale only makes good sense. 

I think a directory of "Show Standards" with pictures and verbiage describing the various pigeon breeds, allowances for variations within that breed, etc., would also be most interesting.

While we're covering Show Pigeons, why not dedicate similar energy and space to Racing Pigeons too?

I think a glossary of "Pigeon Terminology" would also be a nice touch. 

For each project, we need someone to do the requisite research; someone to write original material, based on that research; and someone with e-expertise to put it all together and make it work for this website. We are asking "somebody", perhaps several 
"somebodies", to do an awful lot of work here. 

But I don't see why it's not "doable". And if there can be some joy in doing it, why not? I'm sure everybody here wants to do quality work, so with Carl's approval, why not begin?

So, Terry's question cuts right to the chase and asks for a volunteer to begin the project. It's gotta start some place... 

How about you, Nick? Pick a topic; one item. Do the research, gather the pics and/or illustrations, then write an original article. I'm sure one of us will help out if you get stuck. It's a place to start.

This will no doubt be a work in progress for some time! So with material coming in, perhaps Terry & Carl can put together an outline for the project. With that, members can volunteer for specific areas requiring completion. That will avoid any duplication of efforts, and allow you to cover more ground. 

One thing: I think all articles should fully credit the resources the author used to complete the piece. Perhaps the individual that edits the material will use a standard approach for this. 

I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with!









PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## Dee McCoy (Sep 5, 2001)

Hey Terry,
you, or whom ever is going to "delegate" assignments-I am volunteering my help in whatever way I can, after reading Ray's ideas. (see Ray's post 4/22) I don't have any experience with pigeons other than my babies that now and then fall from the palm tree and need a second mother, but I can research, etc. Let me know







Dee McCoy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Dee!

Thanks for your offer of help. I don't really know who is the "official" assignor of tasks/topics for our "little" project. But...Ray's suggestion of getting the FAQ section going is a great one. Soooo ... why don't you start looking through all the posts and trying to come up with some categories that are often posted and let's see if we can then come up with the answers and get Carl to put them in the FAQ. 

A few I can think of are: How long do I have to keep my birds before letting them fly; How do I train my birds to come home; How do I tame my bird to be a pet; What do I do with this baby I found; What is canker and how is it treated; What diseases do pigeons carry; Where can I get help for a sick/injured pigeon; What should I feed a pigeon. OK, enough. 

If you could do this, it would be a great help. I'm not saying you have to come up with all the answers .. just the FAQ's.

Terry Whatley


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Terry wrote, in part, "If you could do this, it would be a great help. I'm not saying you have to come up with all the answers .. just the FAQ's."

Yes! That's exactly what I mean! An outline framing the questions, is in and of itself, a project. And by all means answer what you feel capable of answering, or research your areas of interest.

Again, to avoid duplication of effort, lets communicate here. Dee, do you accept the FAQ assignment? Which answers, if any, would you like to tackle initially?

Lets also avoid duplication with the "Emergency Care" Sections, etc. Carl & company can install "Hot Links" within the text, that will skip the reader directly to the reason for, and the importance of, "Pigeon Grit".

Nick, Nick, Nick. No way you're gonna wiggle through the cracks on this one, buddy!







Please pick an item or area, or risk assignment by the moderators!









I nominate Terry to head the project, reporting directly to Carl to administrate the plan.

Brian, you sly dog!







Here's your chance to shine!

Over the months, I have edited projects for some of you. I've had not one complaint on my editing policy or ability. So, I will offer my services as editor and producer of the final drafts of text, for Carl's approval.

I will strongly suggest that everybody is credited for their contributions and, again, that all resource material be credited. To see how to credit resource material, see the book reviews link on this website.

--Ray


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Ahh you caught me lurking









I will donate some knowledge to this site.

Its actually amazing how fast people learn the stuff their interested in, I have been in the pigeon hobby now for a year and a half and am already being summoned to contribute.

No problem! I will get some stuff together for you, concentrating on:
Birmingham Rollers and the theories behind why they roll, Loft Q & A's, Colors and Patterns and how to create them. Maybe I'll throw in some other stuff of interest.

I will do my best.
~Brian - Doing his homework


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Brian:

There you go!









If Terry accepts the nomination, and somebody seconds it, she would be the one to direct this project, and keep tabs on what everybody's doing. So, before anybody puts forth a major effort, lets let Terry work with you guys to put an outline together for Carl's approval.

Here is some more input…

*****

FAQ's alone are a protracted subject...

FAQ's: GENERAL
FAQ'S: SHOW PIGEONS
FAQ's: RACING PIGEONS
FAQ's: PERFORMING PIGEONS

Again, we want to avoid unnecessary duplication. The FAQ section and sub-sections should focus on specific answers to specific questions. Interesting factoids may belong on the existing "Pigeon Facts" page of this web site--which we can expand upon. 

Dee, why don't you begin the "General Questions"?

If you guys go to the home page and click on, say, “EMERGENCY PIGEON CARE”, and look at how that text is written, you will see "blue hot-links" within the text, which zap the reader to amplified reading on that subject. This would be a good way to handle the text in the FAQ’s in those instances where duplication is to be avoided. 

For the most part, I would recommend using MSW format for all articles, just to standardize the approach for the administrator, director and your lowly editor…

You will see under resources at the top of this page that the FAQ section is active from this link--it’s just never been hooked up with the forum main page.

To give credit where it’s due in your articles, use this approach at the end of your article to list the resources that you wish to credit (example):

Wendell M. Levi, The Pigeon (Levi Publishing Company, Incorporated, 1981) 

Dr. David Marx, DVM, A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health (The Racing Pigeon Digest Publishing Co., Inc., 1997) 

I know, some stuff you guys “just know”, and can’t give a resource as shown above, and that’s okay. But do try to give credit where it’s due. It’s professional. It lends credibility to your work. And more importantly, it’s the right thing to do.









Those of you working on the book project with me, should consider that project a separate endeavor from this one.

One last thing: Those of you participating in this project, assuming Carl gives it the “okay”, must provide your e-mail address to the administrator and moderators, for the purpose of discussing and editing your work for the final drafts. Those people will hold your e-mail address in confidence, if you have chosen not to post it to the forum.

And aside from bugging Nick until he volunteers for SOMETHING!







that concludes my input on this project overall…

*****

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Wow, this is great guys. I just returned from a business trip to find all of this interest in improving this web site with more helpful content. Thanks to those who got this idea started and to those of you that have decided to help carry it forward.

For those of you that want to contribute to the projects, I suggest you come up with your own subject, something you want to work on, then post this new topic on pigeon talk and ask for contributions. If a topic really takes off with lots of interest and posts, I will take the topic and make it a permanent topic on the bulletin board. So in addition to the “general topic” section and “birds for sale” section, we will have other more “specific topics” which will be managed by the person who wanted to start the topic. Eventually, when enough content is presented, the “topic moderator” will sort the information then present it to Ray for editing. Once completed, the information topic will posted to a permanent section on Pigeons.com. with credits given. 

For the past 3 months I have been learning web site development and management, so I hope to be in a position to post your pictures and manage this web site all on my own in the near future. 

I think that this web site is for the birds, and the people who love them.
Thanks so much,
Carl


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Carl:

That's cool!









But Nick and Whatley got this thing stirred up and I insist that they somehow be dragged into it!









--Ray


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

I agree Ray...organization is what is needed. You seem to have a good handle on this, so before we jump in to far here, could you provide an outline of who is who on the organization ladder, and what each persons participation could be.

Once we have an organixation chart, we can then begin to narrow down what projects we will be working on.

The Pigeon Talk can be use as a project board so that information can be assembled on an "as we go" basis.

What do you think?

Regards,
Carl


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## joann woodring (Mar 27, 2002)

I'd like to suggest a topic, "Pet Pigeons", because it seems to be completely different from "Loft Pigeons". Is this new?

Joann


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

I would love to see more pic's on the web site...

Later,


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hey, "pic" rhymes with "Nick"! Way cool!









We could have Nick's Pic's!!!









Nick?









--Ray


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Everyone!

Yes, I accept whatever responsibilities .. sorry to be slow in getting in here on this. It has been a horrific day for cat caught doves, gang raped ducks, and toxed parakeets. I will be back tomorrow with some hopefully cognizant thoughts.

Terry Whatley


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## robo squab (Jan 13, 2002)

Hi Everybody!!

Wow this string is really going. Wish I could offer some help but all my pic scanning software seeems to be dead I guess it caught Fred's most talked about pigeon disease PMV excuse my odd jokes anyways these ideas I think are just right but it seems that Nick slept on the string hoping Ray wouldn't catch him with a "Spider Creature" by the way I think Ray should make a section for "spider creatures" and "passion cubes" while he is at it didn't get any explanations yet.

I too would like to know the difference between rollers and homers in the way they look. I have been raising pigeons ever since I can remember anything but never bothered about the breeds or anything until just recently when I decided that the domain Pigeons.com was worth trying I found it was really about pigeons but when I first looked at one of the posts it was like foreign to me and the post kind of went like this " Your pigeon must have the paramoxyvirus you probably need to give her 2 tablets of (I cant pronounce it) and mix it with the water hope this helps" of course bieng the inept new comer I was going to leave as fast as I got here then when some horrible situation came on me (can't remember what it was) I remembered " oooh thre was a site that I visited a short while ago maybe I should check it out" anyway you get me I just keep speaking off the subject here sorry but the idea of the FAQ page would be great kind of common Q's answered thing that would do many pigeon people very well anyway this post is getting long & I am not going to be a pain any longer. Thanks 
Robo Squab


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

You know what would be cool? A section with information and pictures of some of the other not as popular pigeons (like birmingham rollers, woo hoo!!!!). Homers occupy 90% of pigeon websites you see and thats great and all, racing sounds great, but not everyone has homers. I would try and help in anyway possible, like say.... RESEARCHING BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS!!! WOOOOOOOO!

Later all,
Nick & his rollers,
Skye and Twister


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## Dee McCoy (Sep 5, 2001)

Wow-I guess I need to log on more frequently esp. when I offer my services.... yea, I'll be glad to do the FAQ's -general. I really don't know what I could provide an answer to, as I am fairly "pigeon ignorant" but willing to learn! I can however ask questions with the best of them. I'll be in touch. Dee


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

There are a few roller people here, I am one of them.

The main difference between racers and rollers is the size, rollers are a small bird. Their heads are a little different also the rollers heads come up steap from the beak and flatten out on top. Rollers beaks (the line from top lip and bottom lip) line up directly (point at) with the center of the pupil. 

The following is taken loosly from the book "True Spinning Rollers 2" by Davod D. Kowalski, with my own words also to (try) make it less scientific.

"Their wings are different also their primaries are narrow and well ventilated, the narrow secondaries drop down in length from the first primary flight. Short secondaries reduce unesesary lift of the wing so they can flap their wings faster and promote propulsion even more for a tight fast spin, Even shorter secondaries would make faster spinning easier still." The arm bones are shorter than a racers, rollers have a tighter feather structure that keeps the feathers closer to the body for a tight fast spin.

Racers have more of a parachute type wing with longer and wider primaries and secondaries were as its better for long distance travel and for speed. Their arm bones are longer than a rollers. Looser feathers for soaring flight.

Kinda confusing until you take a look at the wing of a roller, compared to a wing of a racer then you see the differences and it becomes clear. I will scan a couple of photos from my book to post in this topic.

~Brian


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

I forgot how to post images so if your interested look at the pics I put on my web page to see the wing differences.
http://www.geocities.com/indiebackroll/index.html 

The wings are the top two - duh like I needed to state that..








~Brian


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

The one on the left is a roller wing, the right one is a racer wing.
~Brian


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hey, Brian:

Most enjoyable--you've got some way cool birds there!









People, this comes complete with "Night Vision" imagery!







(Judy and I had considered that for our nocturnal customers...)

A very interesting post too. I know some military planes, ie., the Tomcats, combine the "swept" and the "stall" wing configurations for SS-cruise mode and dog fighting. Of course, Mother nature takes the lead in design...









Many thanks to a cute couple!









--Ray


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Your turn, Nicky Boy!

--Ray


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Thanks for the compliment Ray. 

Holy cow this post is long!

Hopefully it will keep growing, this is fun stuff! ;D

~Brian


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Hey my







didnt work, oh well there it is.
HEHE

~Brian


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Am I the only one that is interested in helping the moderators to get this site updated?

I am not going to start my research untill we get more people involved, I thought this was going to be a good thing here, but I guess people lost interest when they had to do some work.

Anyways I will keep an eye on this topic to see what comes about.

Ready and willing...
~Brian


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## Badragoon (Apr 22, 2002)

I'm interested in helping. I've been watching the post since this post began. You guys have something started just don't give up. I've been doing my own research. It's almost impossible because my birds are always hyperactive. I'll write back once there's more people and once I'm finished.


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

Indie, youy know you have my help on the rollers even though I am "inexperienced". You can email me at [email protected] if you want to get started or get ideas.








Nick


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Thanks Nick, I will as soon as we have more of a group together and this starts to take off, I just dont want to start till we know for sure. I have been collecting stuff over the past year, so in a way I have started.

~Brian


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## crazyroller (Nov 4, 2001)

Hey guys! I'm willing to help anyway I can also. I'm into mostly rollers (birminghams). I love to see other people's birds, so I think there should be more photos of birds. And, I love reading about birds, things that I didn't know about them, and about other breeds. I hope I can help in any way.


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Wow, I missed a lot here. Would be more than happy to help. Mostly rollers here, some show birds. New email address is [email protected] 

------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## Psion (Mar 1, 2002)

Woo hoo!!! Wayne's in on it too! Go Rollers!!!

Nick


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## palomar (Dec 5, 2001)

Brian excuse me i saw that picture of your english short face tumbler.is there a way i can see a better picture of that bird, i think i have one of those i used to have a pair but one of them got scared because of my dog, and never returned ,is it a small bird? does it have feathers on his feet? if so then the one i have is also a english short face tumbler!







i got them as viennas but i seen some pictures of viennas on the internet and i realise they werent so i had been wondering all of this time(about a year now) what breed is he? hes mated with a capuchine and they had two cute ones they dont look like capuchines at all and are small ,when you say they are tumblers does that mean that they perform in such way as rollers? orwhat is the difference? sorry if i change the subject here but that picture got my attention. i love small breeds.


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## Badragoon (Apr 22, 2002)

Mine tumble on the ground. I'm pretty sure that Rollers roll in the air and Tumblers tumble on the ground.


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Yep she's a short faced english tumbler, she doesnt have feathers on her feet but I have seen some that do. The diference between rollers and tumblers in their performance is:

Rollers roll continuously like flip 30-40 times per roll

Tumblers roll mayber 3-5 flips per tumble, some do front flips

If you have a roller that doesnt roll well people will say its a tumbler, its all in their performance. Now if a tumbler rolls 30-40 flips per tumble it would be classified as a roller. Both tumblers and rollers roll/tumble in the air. If you have one that rolls on the ground thats called a parlor/ground roller. If your roller doesnt roll backwards but spins around its center on one wing like a top its classified as a plate spinner.

~Brian


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Palomar, I will snap a photo soon and post it to my website. She's a beautiful white bird, her mate is a black grizzle short faced english tumbler, also very striking, I only have 2 of them and have been unsuccessful in breeding them but I'm still trying. I want more of them.









~Brian


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## palomar (Dec 5, 2001)

Yeah i wasnt very lucky with those little ones either, or maybe i had two boys because when the one i have now got together with the female capuchine they started nesting right away!!! so now i got those other little ones,they are small but with longer beaks what im planing to do is once i find out which one of those kids is a female ill put it together with her dad so ill be trying to bring the short beak and face again,you think it might work? i had been looking for those birds with no luck so i have no choice but try what i just told you,my short face is white tiger it is a very beutiful bird,looks very much like a dove,i got mine at the swap meet, and i keep coming back but so far a year form now nothing! so tell me does that mean that they fly well and tumble? have you let yours out to fly? thanks for your help.


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## indie backroll (Aug 3, 2001)

Since I've had them I have locked them up in their nest box (actually more like a condo, they have a huge box with an exit to the flypen with their own screened in balcony) till they produce some young, I dont want to lose them before I get a chance to breed them. I've lost ones (crested roller with feather feet) that I meant to breed and kicked myself for letting them out and not breeding them before doing so.

I am now going to pull their eggs and put them with a set of rollers that always do great raising young, but I think that one of the two short faces may be infertile because they sit on them for a long time before abandoning their eggs. Just as a test I am going to foster the eggs to that set of rollers and see what comes about.

~Brian


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## Elizabeth (Nov 15, 2001)

I would be willing to develop a Show Pigeon section, as that is my interest. I am the publicity director for my local pigeon club and have learned a lot about shows and show pigeons.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Okay, you guys are getting there. Nice to see!









My input to this project was limited to page one of this thread. I stand by those suggestions.

From this point, I offer my services as editor only on this project--though I will watch with interest, what you guys create.

--Ray


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