# Skinny pigeon, should I release it ?



## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, 4th pigeon at home... 😅
This evening there has been a big storm (still pouring down at the moment 4 hours later) and I saw from the window a young pigeon stucked on the roof, absolutely soaked trying to fly and land on the floor. It went to a building entrance and stood there, waiting for the rain to stop. 

So I ran and took it, thinking that I would release it when dry and when the rain would stop.

It's a young one, had a big amount of human long hair on one feet which I've taken care of. I put some antibiotic cream on it because it had started to go into the flesh 🤬
He is so skinny... his crop looks full though and I hope it's not crop stasis he did a brown mucous dropping.
I was planning on releasing him straight away tomorrow because rain is still so strong but now I'm worried that he might die if I do so. It's the 1st time that I get a pigeon not dying, not disabled so I'm clueless.
What do you think ?
I'm waiting for your wise thoughts 😀


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Keep him for another day and see how he is doing. If he is eating well and droppings are good, then you can release him where he was found.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

As you brought him inside, at your place I would keep him for some days (I would say about a week) and see how he is doing. 

This way you could help him to get stronger and maybe to gain some weight: I would give him a good and varied diet (don't forget dried legumes), a good vitamin supplement (a 5 days treatment) and I would leave available (in a separate bowl from food) some crumbled picking stone.
Before releasing him I would also treat him against external parasites (if you have a spray or a powder, of course...).

In case he seems too scared, agitated or stressed and nothing seems wrong with him, you could release him earlier...


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## Papo (Sep 15, 2021)

Selphiechen said:


> Hi, 4th pigeon at home... 😅
> This evening there has been a big storm (still pouring down at the moment 4 hours later) and I saw from the window a young pigeon stucked on the roof, absolutely soaked trying to fly and land on the floor. It went to a building entrance and stood there, waiting for the rain to stop.
> 
> So I ran and took it, thinking that I would release it when dry and when the rain would stop.
> ...


 Virginia Beach pigeon rescue


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, thanks for advices !
This pigeon is so lucky I saw her yesterday and tonight !

I gave him to drink and eat but she was so afraid trying to fly inside his cage against the grills so I put him powder against lice/mites and let him go. He flew off nice and smooth but I was really worried..

Tonight I went back home by car and what do I see at that moment ? This same pigeon being chased by 2 cats playing with him... I took him again lol.
No wound, so weird !
Something must be wrong with his health though...
She is as quiet as yesterday when I got her but tomorrow I won't let her go.









Now we need to find what's wrong with her. I presume it's a she because I've seen her mating on the roof in front of my house this summer.
Her mouth and throat are clear. 
No droppings yet.
I gave her ACV water and she drank after I insisted.

Her crop seems full again but still I don't know if she ate today. Here she put seeds in her mouth but spit them after.
She's all puffed up now so I'm gonna get her warm water bottle.









I hope that she will be okay. 
I got there in time twice, she surely has an angel watching over her !


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

What a beauty! What have you got available for treatment?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, yes she is gorgeous 💝

Smelly brown droppings this morning 🤢








I realise that she eats only tiny seeds.

She tried to escape but she's so weak. Can walk but only do little jumps, not fly. She is cold and doesn't have much strength to fight.

- I have some deworming capsules ( teniverm for a 500g pigeon 


[TD]Lévamisole.....................................................(sous forme de chlorhydrate)[/TD]
[TD]10,2 mg[/TD]​
[TD]Niclosamide.................................................[/TD]
[TD]48,0 mg[/TD]​
- I also have antibiotics amoxicillin (50mg amoxicillin + 12,5 clavulanic acid)

- sodiazot to help with digestion and liver.
Solution :
SORBITOL : 600 mg
LYSINE (s.f. de chlorhydrate) : 16 mg
Alcool benzylique : 9 µl
Excipients (dont extraits végétaux : boldo, cynara, romarin, orthosiphon,
kinkeliba) q.s.p. : 1 ml

- supplements like vitamins, minerals, brewer's yeast acv etc... 

I can call the vet at 12:00 and see if he can see her today otherwise it will have to wait the entire weekend.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

She really has a guardian angel! Lol I'm used to say too that some birds have a guardian angel 👼! 

I hope that your vet could visit her today 🤞. If you bring her there ask him to check even for eggs (you know, by touching them they can feel eggs. I know, it's not like an x-ray but when a girl has something wrong it's better to try that).

Keep us updated!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi yes I was thinking of the eggs aswell. 
Unfortunately the vet said he has no time to see her. He said that I should deworm her because he would do nothing more. So I gave her the teniverm.

I noticed that she has a lot of undigested seeds (mostly tiny milo) in her droppings. 

What can I do to help her ? Do you think I should forcefeed her formula balls easier to digest and full of vitamins calcium and stuff ? 
Or defrosted tiny green peas more natural ?

I also have this natural coccidiosis preventive. Can't harm can it ?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Poor girl, her vent was so dirty all feathers stuck together with hard stool and undigested seeds so I had to bathe her in warm water and got rid of it.
Her crop is still hard even if she drinks. I massaged it, gave acv again. I hope it will empty 🤔 she hates me touching it, it must be painfull as she grunts at me only when I touch her crop.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Undigested seeds in the droppings can also be caused by a yeast infection. As well as slow crop. You don't have Nystatin? Try giving her small pieces of garlic in a formula ball. But don't handfeed her if the crop is not empty. Diluted human baby applesauce will also help for digestion. Also massage after giving.

At least the droppings are brown and not green. The urates are a bit yellowish and that can be a symptom of canker when the liver gets affected. So difficult to diagnose these problems!


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Oh thanks Marina ! No I don't have Nystatin I don't think I can get it from pharmacy... ( Kiwi might have yeast too by the way )

So I should take all food away from her until her crop is emptied ? To drink do you think acv water better than sodiazot ?
I can get baby apple sauce easily yay 😆


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear that the vet doesn't have time for you 😔...

I bought too similar plant-based supplements (for example oxycox) but in all honesty I don't know if they can interact with the dewormer so I would not give it today.

Undigested seeds could ndicate issues with digestion, here they explain that well:

Dropping Interpretation

"The stomach
Pigeons have two stomachs. In the first, which is called the proventriculus or glandular stomach, digestive
enzymes such as pepsinogen and acids are mixed with the food. The first stomach opens into the second
through a narrow isthmus.
The second stomach is called the ventriculus or gizzard. Here, the pigeon keeps a supply of digestive stones that, together with the gizzard’s thick muscular wall, act like mill stones, grinding the seed to a pulp. Disease in this area leads to hyper-motility and increased rate of passage. With the grain moving through this area too quickly, normal digestion cannot occur, leading to the passing of whole grain in the droppings. Infections due to bacteria and yeasts can occur in the stomach and in older birds the stomach can be a site of cancer.
Passage of whole grain in the droppings indicates hypermotility of the proventriculus/ventriculus area. Infection or inflammation in the proventriculus or ventriculus leads to an increased rate of passage, and malfunctioning of the normal digestive processes that should occur here. This results in the passing of whole grain in the droppings".

The bad smell of the droppings added to the undigested seeds and the difficulty in flying could make think about something bacterial. But honestly it's just a guess... We can't tell what is wrong...
From what I read even worms could cause undigested seeds in poops. You could start to see how she is doing after the dewormer.

Recently I had a horrible experience with my birds. My pigeon Londo had crop impaction (I mean, it didn't work). Massages helped her a lot (I can explain how to do them). I also gave her warm applesauce (I bought an organic one without added sugar, brand Carrefour), probiotics and I had to feed very small amounts of very very liquid formula. The vet thought about something viral or bacterial (I have never found a vet who does tests on birds). She ruled out yeasts and canker.

Of course, the crop must be empty before feeding her.

Yes, here in France it's needed a prescription for getting nystatin (Mycostatine). Years ago my pigeon Caterina got yeasts. Did you notice any bad smell coming from the mouth?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks for all this information ❣🥲 honnestly all her body smells so bad the room itself has her sent now 🤢 I'm going to check her breath now


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Diluted warmed up applesauce will definitely help with emptying the crop. Give this to her throughout the day and gently massage afterwards. Remove all her seeds and focus on getting the crop empty. I've mentioned in your other post if you might be able to get Medistatin (same as Nystatin, but is used in pigeons for yeast).

I once wrote down the following info for chickens with a yeasty/doughy crop (sour crop). 

Mix: 1/16 th of a teaspoon ginger, same amount cinnamon and same amount cayenne powder with 1 teaspoon lemon juice and give 0.3 to 0.4 ml. It might be worth a try if nothing else is working.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks a lot ! I will try it. Cayenne you mean black pepper ?
I removed the seeds
Breath is not worse than the rest of her body.
I'm affraid that the dewormer is still in her crop lol. Now her droppings are clear liquid + seeds..... nothing else. Her crop still really hard but less full.
She didn't want to drink so I'll give everything later because now I need to go to the shop (carrefour) get applesauce.
I'll be happy if you tell me how to do the crop massage properly ? 
Thanks again


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Cayenne peper is the red one. When I massage, I do in circular motions. Very gently as you don't want liquid going up into her beak.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Ok thanks a lot ! I looked on the internet for medistatin but I can't find it in France or even europe ? Maybe Colombina will know.
So I have the apple sauce I dilute it a lot ? And try to get her to drink it or thicker and seringe it ? Sorry if it's annoying I will find on other posts no worries you already helped alot


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

I just got the vet and he told me to give a small amount of mineral oil with the applesauce. What do you think ? 🤔







droppings


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can dilute the applesauce with a bit of warm water, but you will need to give by syringe. I doubt she will drink it, although you can try. Always dangerous giving them liquid by syringe, unless you can get the syringe past the breathing hole. The mineral oil will help if she has a blockage. Worth trying.

Poor baby, she's not looking well.


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

Thank you for your efforts in helping this little beauty! I tried looking through all the previous posts, and apologize if some of what I'm about to say was already been discussed.

1. Find a local bird rescue organization and/or a vet who specializes in avian care. The vet care you received is sadly inadequate. This poor pigeon has 2 strong bacterial infection risk indications, and each would have alerted an experienced avian vet to prescribe antibiotic treatment or at least discuss potential need: A. foul smell in droppings; B. confirmed contact with a cat.

The USFWS or local state agency should keep a public list of licensed local wildlife rehabilitates and their contact info. Try reaching out, at the very least, they may be able to put you in touch with an avian vet or provide you with rx meds in the correct formulations for a pigeon.


*2. Given the history of this bird, the priorities should be: 

A. In the following 3 days ensure minimal handling and restful conditions at every stage*

A.1: *over the following 24 hours get body temperature to normalize*

- If the bird's feet are cool to the touch, place a heating pad under its housing and keep on low. Generally, fully feathered birds do not require external heat, but given the history, this bird may have been hypothermic due to getting soaked in the rain

A.2: *over the following 24 hours* *focus on proper hydration to prevent dehydration*

- giving meds to a potentially dehydrated animal is no good as absorption becomes limited, and liver and kidney damage risks increase

IF visible mites are present, address immediately with the least invasive topical treatments available to speed up the recovery of other issues:

- there are non medicated/non-toxic vit c based sprays that work and would be appropriate and safe for mite control (amazon or pet store)

- topical ivemectin ( only a single drop + 0.1 cc water ) can be applied to skin on the back and under wings to address both external (mites) and many internal parasites ( amazon )

- when bird is stronger/moving around, provide shallow dish with water for daily bathing, this is one of the best ways for birds to rid themselves of external parasites

*BECAUSE foul smell in droppings is present:*


add 4 drops of non-alcohol based oregano oil to 8 oz of water for 2 days OR
add 4 drops of non-alcohol based peppermint oil to 8 oz of water for 1 day OR
add 4 drops of apple vinegar to 8 oz of water for 2 days

*For digestive health and electrolytes:*


add a healthy pinch of Optagest ( Digestive Aid for dogs found in any pet store ) to 6 oz of water
you could also mix 4 oz Pedialyte ( unflavored ) with 4 oz of water to help hydration/electrolyte levels OR
add a pinch of salt and a pinch of sugar to 4 oz of water, make sure it's fully desolved - do this for 2-3 days

A.3: *address malnutrition/diet*

- since no odor coming out of mouth, keep giving fresh feed daily, this should be mix of bird seed + pellets if available + chopped up broccoli/other dark greens + grains ( green/red lentils, rice, quinoa, split peas... ) + adding flax seed, chia, or hemp is good + extra unsalted sunflower seeds are fatty and great for a skinny bird

- frozen peas and corn can be thawed and offered, they are easier on digestion and peas are high in protein; adult birds are usually uninterested but maybe a good idea to offer in this case


do not force feed
do not massage crop

A.4: in following 24-72 hours, *re-assess remaining symptoms* *+ behavior to plan further treatment*
( IV fluid + prophylactic antibiotic treatment should have started as soon as the vet was alerted of confirmed car contact, but this doesn't seem to be an option at the moment )

Allow the animal to warm up and then observe its behavior. If still not eating in 24 hours after body heat has stabilized, to prevent the crop from shutting down:

- if you are finding droppings daily, the bird is eating, do not force feed anything - keep offering a variety of foods

- if no droppings or only white (urates) or black dry droppings are present - intervention maybe needed, keep this minimal:


Use 1 ml syringe (no gauge needle) to slowly give warm apple sauce. Do this once. Give 3 ml. Observe for behavior changes + appetite in the next 12 hours.
You can also gently give completely thawed and still warm peas in the beak, one at a time. Give 10-20. If bird is fighting you hard, stop. Do this once. Observe for the next 12 hours.
B. *Next items to consider/address: *


potential digestive and absorption issues ( if undigested seed in droppings - continue adding Optigest to water for another 3-5 days)
potential plumage issues ( healthy fully feathered birds should not get soaked; given this bird was just sitting in the rain, perhaps weakness was the cause to get soaked and not poor feather quality, but this is something to consider)
- if in 3-7 days there's no improvement and the bird is still lethargic or becomes anorexic AND assuming the bird has been already properly dewormed + cleaned of parasites, a vet/rehabber assessed the need and offered antibiotic treatment (albon is often given prophylactically for coccidia) - sadly this is commonly a sign of viral and other disease that has progressed to organ systems

- bird should be treated with Spartrix/carnidazole - sometimes, there's no visible cancer lesions, but there's a mass in the throat or crop sadly; carnidazole can upset the crop/digestion and make a bird not eat for a day, this is normal and this side effect can be lessened by giving 1/2 tab in the AM coated in olive oil + another 1/2 tab in the PM, again coated in olive oil

- if odor is coming from the crop, pronounced crop sensitivity doesn't improve, crop becomes filled with fluid - nyastatic or other rx meds must be given ASAP to fight yeast or fungal infection TIP: ketoconazole is used in anti-dandruff shampoo which is a gel - a small amount can be applied to the skin of the neck/crop area in the case no other treatments are available and fungal or yeast infection is suspected

- continue to monitor if only "playing with food" - picking up seed but not eating - this can be normal (new diet, stress, young bird) but it can also be indicative of pain pain or bockage/swelling/inflammation due to physical trauma to the beak/throat/neck/crop area (this should improve in a couple of day); it could also indicate an ongoing yeast infection - keep checking for smell from mouth; it could also indicate trich infection/internal canker mass (internal canker will require repeated cornidazole treatment); or digestive issue/discomfort/inflammation - digestive aid powders + olive oil + hemp oil + arnica oil (non-alcohol based always) should ease this issue in a few days

- do not get discouraged by "abnormal" looking droppings, the important things to watch for during week 1 of rehab is: Are there regular droppings (they should not be only white urates or bloody) ? Is there a foul odor coming from the the droppings (bacterial infection indication) ? Is there blood in the droppings or urine (blood may be brightly colored or black tar colored) ? If any of these is true, intervention by vet or rehabber is necessary.

- because the bird has done through traumatic events already + it is currently experiencing high stress due to captivity + is receiving a new diet + being given medicine ->* it is NORMAL for the droppings to look abnormal for the first week while the bird stabilizes while receiving medication*

- note: internal parasites can be an issue, but birds suffering a heavy infestation usually present with inability to fly, inability to keep balance, and other neuro symptoms

- note: regurgitation may happen, this is ok, just replace the current water mix with fresh water for the following 24 hours, then try a different water/supplement mix, do not hold/restrain the bird, make sure the feed is fresh (I've opened sealed packages of bird feed that made my birdos sick :| - seed should "smell" nice/fresh, there should be no little holes anywhere - this is easier to see on unshelled sunflower seed

- note: non-alcohol based hemp oil and arnica oil is recommended and can be given safely in the water or in the beak; arnica pellets can be given too (coat in olive oil first)

- I'd not give mineral oil (although I'm sure it's fine too), any of the above-mentioned oils will suffice, also I have experience with olive oil for pigeons without any issues

It is CRITICAL to exercise minimal handling of the bird. Especially if it's already showing signs of pain/discomfort when handled. Birds are very susceptible to the effects of stress, and sometimes in our efforts to helps, we can do more harm that good for an already sensitive animal.

For a traumatized animal, doing less is more sometimes.

I hope some of this helps.


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

Is this pigeons is regularly passing droppings: it is not blocked and it is eating or already had food in its crop. No need to force anything in its beak at this time. Observe.

Please do not force liquid into the bird's beak ( slowly giving a few drops of oil or medicine can be ok ), a stressed/sick bird is more likely to inhale fluid/aspirate.

Do not feed apple sauce until the bird is maintaining normal body heat and ONLY if there's no droppings for 12-24 hours ( please read long post for details). Adding oils into apple sauce is ok, do not add water.

If the bird is in a condition where fluids absolutely must be administered, this should only be done by vet/rehabber and with the proper tools and in the proper amounts.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi wow thanks for the big detailed post 🤗
I saw it too late so I did handle her a lot give him warm diluted applesauce with a sringe and massaged her crop. She didn't fight me but she's too weak to do so.. the crop is now bigger but much softer instead of rock hard but I had to massage a lot.
She did a huge bad dropping when I put her back in the "cage" and it smelled so hard like human diarrhea so yes she must have an infection...
I only have amoxicillin+clavulanic acid 😞









She does eat on her own if I leave seeds for her ( only tiny seeds though ) but I wanted her crop to empty before.
The vet told me to crush the seeds before giving her so that she can digest better. I can have crushed pellets for baby quails and I know she is used to eats them outside i also have unshelled buckwheat and by the look of it that's the only thing she digested.

I don't have optigest, I need to find where to get it.
If you think amoxicillin is not good I will buy the oregano and peppermint oil tomorrow.

There is no rehabber around. And this is the only vet that takes pigeons. I'm going to the veterinary school on wednesday for another pigeon and they can take her and I'll never see her again they might eurhanize her because it's a pigeon and not an owl or a raptor..

Thanks again !!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry for the late reply.

You have to massage the crop in a gentle way by circular movements. You need to be careful because you do not have to push any liquid up (I mean push a liquid into the throat/mouth) because the bird could aspirate. I had to massage several times a day (you can decide how many times according to the situation), each time for about 10/15 minutes. Also try to gentle press at the base of the crop (where food goes into the proventriculus).

I didn't dilute applesauce (did you buy the fresh one, I mean the one in the rayon frais?), you only have to warm it a few seconds (check it with your fingers) and slowly give it by syringe.
I also added it to the formula (of course, when it was possible to feed Londo...)

I have never seen medistatin here. If you are in good relationship with your vet you could try to ask him to send you a prescription for Mycostatine (by mail or whatsapp or what else).... Or if you know a pharmacist who is not too "strict"... 😉... Unfortunately Mycostatine is only available on prescription... I have a new bottle but it has expired in 2019...I'm sorry...

I suppose the vet suggested to give mineral oil (paraffin oil?) by mouth because it is a lubricant.

I read online (on French websites) about the use of bicarbonate de soude for Candida (if he has yeasts... As I wrote earlier something bacterial seems more likely, your last post seems to confirm that... ). I don't know if it is a good method.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Oh we posted at the same time 😉

No I bought the organic one for baby with no added sugar but it's not the fresh one. I bought apples too just in case so I can make some if needed !

I have the feeling that my vet is getting fed up with me and the pigeons... he always took me between appointments or at the end of the morning or evening but not anymore... 😞

I can ask somebody who owns a contraceptive dovecote not too far from where I live. He helped me years ago maybe he has something for her.

I read this too about bicarbonate de soude but it can do harm to kidney liver if I give too much and I don't know the dose. It says to put it on the yeast lesions and I don't see any ?


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

No worries, these are tough situations. But we do the best that we can with what we have at that time.

She's weak because she's not digesting the feed ( inclined to think due to severe bacterial infection and resulting diarrhea than digestive issues at this point in time ) AND because she's becoming dehydrated, due to fluid loss in diarrhea. I'd focus on *keeping her warm +* *rest + appropriate fluids* *+ more digestible diet* today and overnight. Since you just gave her diluted applesauce, I'd wait for a few hours and then give a tiny pinch of salt + a tiny pinch of sugar diluted in small amount of water (0.1 ml), hopefully this stops some of the water loss. Highly suggest to add salt and sugar to her water at this time or if possible mix with pedialyte, and keep this up for the next few days.

Given the bird is not dehydrated (look for sagging skin or peeling skin around the eyes and beak; palpating major blood vessels is another way to check), the bacterial issue needs to be addressed with meds. She needs the proper antibiotic which is almost impossible to give without vet/rehabber help in testing and rx, BUT natural antimicrobials (the oils and remedies we've already discussed) can help too. 

Amoxi isn't usually ideal for this indication BUT depending on bacteria type, it could provide relief. If there're no other vet options and the smelly diarrhea isn't improving, I'd start giving tomorrow morning - unlike many other meds, amoxi is best absorbed on an empty stomach (it's generally poorly absorbed by avians and the initial dose; I'd add a drop of olive oil and/or hemp oil to help with further upsetting her digestion) * Is this an avian formulation?* Most of the people tabs have coatings that even if crushed, cause regurgitation and are not appropriate.

In the meantime, given what the droppings look like today, I'd remove the seed feed - she's not getting nutritional value from it at this time as it comes out undigested. I'd give *cooked rice* (a bit of boiled rice with a pinch of salt might be very effective here - but only offer 1 ts worth of the cooked stuff every 6 hours) + *thawed peas + corn*, and *SHELLED sunflower seed* (all stores carry this for humans, both roasted and raw is fine, just make sure it's unsalted) + *keep giving the unshelled buckwheat*. You can also *add cracked hemp* + *add uncooked polenta* - it's basically finely crushed corn kernels. Also, if possible offer pellets. If no pellets, water soaked kibble can be offered too. OR, a hard boiled chicken egg, finely chopped - all parts are fine, but egg white will be especially helpful with protein here - the egg shell can be ground finely and sprinkled over the rest of the egg + on top of other foods/seed - packed with lots of very much needed minerals and other nutrients. You can offer a small amount (1/2 tbs chopped egg), and if she eats it, note any changes in droppings. BEWARE - the kibble and egg can make pigeon droppings smell because they are animal based - this is normal and likely won't be noticed given the current state of the droppings. Make sure any foods but especially animal based foods are VERY fresh, this little sweetie is already sick and will be extra sensitive to quality and freshness.

Reassess how any changes are affecting her every 12-24 hours, based on poop + behavior. 

She is eating/has appetite (based on seed coming out the other end), this is great sign! I'm a big fan of feeding peas in the beak + apple sauce because they can be true life savers, but this should be done ONLY if absolutely needed. Since she's eating, I'd hold off on the peas, just offer in enclosure. See how the diarrhea is in the next 2-4 hours. Giving warm apple sauce very slowly with added oils once a day for another day or two maybe be appropriate here, if it's helping her digestion and energy levels. But our goal is to get rid of the bacterial diarrhea + offer a variety of foods she can digest at the moment, since she's willing to feed by herself.

I need to re-read the posts maybe, because it seems other readers are concerned with crop blockage and recommend massaging. Based on the description I'm reading, the main issues appears to be weakness + diarrhea. In any case, I'd focus on addressing that at this time and definitely stay away from adding water to her crop in general - except for the purpose of introducing electrolytes for rehydration purposes or with meds - water should not be "fed", it increases aspiration risk and will dilute digestive juices/enzymes, causing further digestion slow down.

Bayer brand Potassium pellets may help with water absorption here - 2 pellets coated in olive or hemp or other oil, 1-2 daily. There are human supplements available in most stores. Same with arnica pellets. There're a number of arnica strength pellets, all of them are generally fine. The biggest concern with givin natural remedies in pellets is upsetting digestion - this is easily eliminated by coating the pellets in oil + easier for bird to swallow. tip: coat any tablet in a little olive oil before giving to pet/other animals, they are easier to swallow that way


You're doing a good thing!! 💜





Selphiechen said:


> Hi wow thanks for the big detailed post 🤗
> I saw it too late so I did handle her a lot give him warm diluted applesauce with a sringe and massaged her crop. She didn't fight me but she's too weak to do so.. the crop is now bigger but much softer instead of rock hard but I had to massage a lot.
> She did a huge bad dropping when I put her back in the "cage" and it smelled so hard like human diarrhea so yes she must have an infection...
> I only have amoxicillin+clavulanic acid 😞
> ...


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

Colombina said:


> Sorry for the late reply.
> 
> You have to massage the crop in a gentle way by circular movements. You need to be careful because you do not have to push any liquid up (I mean push a liquid into the throat/mouth) because the bird could aspirate. I had to massage several times a day (you can decide how many times according to the situation), each time for about 10/15 minutes. Also try to gentle press at the base of the crop (where food goes into the proventriculus).
> 
> ...





Selphiechen said:


> Oh we posted at the same time 😉
> 
> No I bought the organic one for baby with no added sugar but it's not the fresh one. I bought apples too just in case so I can make some if needed !
> 
> ...



I'd not give bicarbonate de soude/baking soda at this time. When given, it should be in very small amounts. Olive oil (coconut oil is popular for crop impactions too) should be ok for next 1-2 days to ease crop. If she's pooping, she's eating - no severe blockage. When no digested food, the diarrhea will be still stinky but mostly clear liquid/mucus or bloody. Because of her poor condition + stress, she could start to develop sour crop too. The crop is very sensitive to mechanical pressure too, I'd advice against trying to check or feel if she's eating. Keeping her housing warm is key for digestion. Watch for droppings as a way to track her eating. Just a few drops of apple vinegar + some oregano oil in her water + a few drops of olive or coconut oil in the beak should be ok to settle her crop for the time being.


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

I had a chance to look at some of the older posts. Poor thing. Dirty vent can often be a sign of immobilization or internal parasites. 😐 Seems like there was a crop lump that has now improved.

The antibiotic formulation you have is the right concentration for a pigeon. Based on weight, you'd want to do give at about 150 mg/kg (125mg/kg-175mg/kg every 12-24 hours is the normal therapeutic range). For a healthy 300 gram (0.3 kg) bird, this would be about 0.9 ml (almost a full 1 ml syringe). She's probably not 300 grams, so likely closer to 0.5-0.7 ml for each dose. BTW, Amoxicillin/clavulanate ( known as augmentin for humans ) has a rather short shelf life once reconstituted, it's effective for only about 14 days and MUST be kept in the fridge. If giving, draw up in the syringe, then let it warm up to room temp before giving to lower discomfort and risk of regurgitation and aspiration.


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

Sorry for all the long messages, I work with a bird rescue in Colorado, and I'm basically trying to regurgitate our pigeon treatment protocols, adjusted with the available resources in mind. Please let me know if I can help with anything specific.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you so much for caring ❤ 
All this information is priceless don't apologize please !
It's in tablets for cat/dog. No coating as when I cut in half, 12 hours later the other half is like dust if I don't put in fridge locked out of moist. I did give half a tablet every 12 hours for a 300g pigeon ( so 50mg amoxicillin per 24h it seems a lot less than what you mention ? ) it's easier for me to give in a formula ball instead of sringe because I'm really afraid of aspiration is that alright ? Also shall I give it to her even on slow crop ?
I wish my vet would check her and do injections...

I gave her a 9ch arnica pill with olive oil. it's the only thing that you said I have on hand. 
She is sleeping now it's close to midnight here in France so I won't disturb her to see her droppings or give her anything appart from changing warm water bottle ( no heating pad )
Thanks a lot everyone I feel lucky to have you 
I'll tell you tomorrow how she's doing.


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## Des (Nov 27, 2020)

I'm glad she's getting some rest 🤗🍀

Yes, you should can start and tablets/powder is just fine. You can mix the powdered tab with a few drops of oil to make things a little easier/stickier.

Dosage:

125-175 mg/kg therapeutic range is per kilo, assuming this bird is approximately .200 - .250 kg in weight, that puts us at 20-45 mg clavamox per dose. So between 1/2 and almost a full of the tablets you have would be appropriate. Start with 1/2 tab every 12 hours.

Smaller animals often have faster metabolisms and require higher dose of same drug than larger animals. You may notice on the amoxi package, the recommended daily dose for a dog should be lower than the recommended daily dose for a cat,
If I remember correctly.

Pigeons are shown to have especially low oral absorption of amoxi, and higher dose plus injection is much preferred to oral administration in general, but this is not an option at the moment.

Clavamox (amoxi/clauv) is what we give preventatively for 3 days for known animal contact, so give with confidence.

From the pics, it would appear the diarrhea has worsened. This is another reason to start now.

*VERY IMPORTANT*

Only give any meds, especially antibiotics, if the bird is not dehydrated. Please reference long post for signs of severe dehydration.

While on antibiotics, continued proper hydration is critical to aid absorption and proper blood flow, this requires electrolytes.

If no Pedialyte is available, sports drink/Gatorade can be used as substitute short term - make sure it's not not one with a sugar substitute like stevia, this is not good for bird digestion. Mix 50/50 or 25/75 with water. Alternatively, keep adding a pinch of salt and a little extra sugar to fresh water.

While on antibiotics, giving digestive aid/probiotics is that much more important. If you don't have it now, that's ok, as long as you can get some over the weekend maybe. If no other options, get unsweetened tart yogurt/kefir, Bulgarian yogurt is best for this, but most will do. Give just a little bit in the beak - you can do this with your finger, dip the tip of your finger in the yogurt, then gently rub on/inside the beak, no syringe needed, small amount is enough. Once a day with antibiotic is plenty.

The issue with amox is that common side effect is diarrhea and decreased appetite. In this case, keep track of whether the diarrhea
it's getting better or worse every 12 hours for up to 3 days. If working on the strain of bacteria, the foul odor should start to decrease by day 3. If that's the case, continue giving for another 3-4 days. 6-7 days total.

Arnica is anti-inflammatory. As long as the pill formulation itself doesn't cause irritation, keep giving. Can be given with the antibiotic.

Keep coating with olive oil, or raw coconut oil if you end up getting some.

If possible, get her Oregano oil or oregano concentrate pill to crush for the crop concerns. Continue with olive, hemp, coconut, or other oil that you may have.

Due to her current condition, supplementation with vit K, which helps build blood cells, is also recommended. It comes in oil form too, or pill that can be crushed.

NOTE on oils dosing (you don't always have to give this much, but this is what's generally safe per dose; oils can be added to water bowl instead but since only small amount of water will be injested, add larger amounts to 4-6 oz water, shake water with oils in a jar/blender/protein bottle for best mixing; separation will happen and so will oiled feathers on the face, this will come off naturally in a few days, not to worry):

Arnica - 2-8 drops at a time
Oregano - 2-3 drops at a time
Peppermint - 1-2 drops at a time
Coconut - 5-15 at a time
Olive oil - 5-15 at a time
Vit A - 1 drop
Vit K - 1 drop
Hemp - up to 20 drops at a time

* In general, non-alcohol based oils are recommended for supplements, because there's less of a chance of irritated gut due to the additional ingredients in pills/tablets along with easier absorption

Good luck 🤞 will keep checking here over the weekend.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi I'm sorry to tell you she's dying. She did this poop at night : no more smell to it.








Her eyes are tiny, she vomitted a bit too.
Doesn't want to drink or eat. So puffed up. 
I'm sorry


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Oh no! Don't give up so soon. That droppings looks better than the other droppings.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes the dropping doesn't smell bad and that's weird to me. Maybe she had worms or she ate bad things like cat food... her crop is still big but less that yesterday and not hard.

The person who takes care of a contraceptive dovecote in another village just gave me versele laga recovery caps. Very nice of him he came to me and saw her.
He didn't have any medistatin or anything for yeast, he said that he would give recovery caps as it helps digestion too and has electrolytes inside. He told me to give 1 every 2 hours with formula and water. What do you think ? I'm not sure It's good to give formula if the crop is not empty.
He said that she doesn't look good at all. Dehydrated and only skin and bones. She does droppings and that means it's not blocked and if I don't feed her she will starve to death.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm not familiar with recovery caps, but maybe you should give it a go. Give small amounts of formula, as long as she is producing droppings then at least you know food is getting digested.

I hope she survives.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes I tried the caps and now she finally wants to drink on her own, he told me the caps would make her thirsty. But she doesn't want to eat. 
I hope she makes it too because I've known her well for 2 years, it's the tamest in the street everybody knows her here since the 1st lockdown she's been in the streets often on the floor.
But she really looks miserable at the moment 😢


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you still giving acv in the water?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes, is that okay ?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes. That will help.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very sorry to hear that she is doing very bad.

I gave a look at the Versele Laga recovery caps and from what I read that person gave you a good product (he is a very kind person). I read that they promote the recovery of the intestinal and crop flora and that they are rich in vitamins, etc.
As that person told you even the website mentions the need to drink after the administration.
It also suggests "When administering, always first wet the capsule in a little water". 

The great problem is that if she has a bacterial infection an antibiotic would be absolutely needed. Better a broad spectrum antibiotic. Supportive cares would not be enough (but they would be the only way in case of viral infection). 

At least, even if the crop is still big, she is pooping. As you said, it means that it is slow but not impacted. 

I hate these situations, feeling helplessness is painful and frustrating. I recently had a horrible experience so I know that well. I'm praying for her and for you.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can start her on 40 mg amoxy twice a day. Problem is that if she has a yeast infection, the antibiotics will kill her. So what a pity you can't get hold of Nyststin or Medistatin.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

😱 I don't want to kill her 😭


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You will need to start somewhere. Do you have fluconazole? I think Mycostatin from a pharmacy can also be used for yeast, but not sure about the dosage. Don't think you need prescription for that.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

I have septotryl I used to give 1/4 tab per day to a young pigeon
Un comprimé de 79 mg contient :

Substance(s) active(s) :


[TD]Triméthoprime ................[/TD]
[TD]10 mg[/TD]​
[TD]Sulfaméthoxypyridazine ...........[/TD]
[TD]50 mg
[/TD]​
Medistatyn is on on pharmacy


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Mycostatine (which is nystatin) is for humans not for animals. It's needed a prescription for buying it. So I was thinking: I don't know how that works in France but if it's like in Italy you should have a family doctor. Are you in good relationship with him? You could try to explain him the situation? He could maybe write you a prescription. The problem is that today is Saturday.

I asked yesterday... Do you know any pharmacist who is not so "strict"? If not, you could try to explain to any pharmacist the situation (tell him that your own vet is not available today cause it's Saturday...and that she is your own bird.. ) and ask for the Mycostatine... Once when I was here in France I needed a med for my cat Kira but I did not have the prescription, I could get it after explaining everything... I don't know where you live... Is next to you any touristic town? If yes it could be easier to get it... Tell them that you are a tourist... I know that they can't sell some meds without a prescription but sometimes, if the med is not something strong or dangerous and it's an emergency, they give it without it...

As I said I have a closed bottle but it has expired in 2019... If not, I would have sent it to you..

Also I want to add that, from what I read, bicarbonate de soude could be added even to drinking water:
"Ajoutez du bicarbonate de soude à l’eau de boisson (une cuillérée à café pour 2 litres)" .
But our member did not recommend it. So it's not a good solution.

If you want to try to ask for Mycostatine you should buy the one in the pic.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes I know but pharmacists are strict here... they didn't even want to give me the dewormer and it's not on prescription.. I'm not in a tourist place infortunately 🥺 
The droppings don't smell anymore and she does this funny thing with her beak I don't know how to explain.. like opening half of it (makes me think of horses when they put their nose up to smell).


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Her crop is empty now. Formula balls + recovery caps or defrosted peas + recovery caps ? She doesn't want to eat on her own


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Rather do the formula balls. But then she will drink a lot of water as the balls make them very thirsty.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you Marina I did the formula balls but it was too hard to give to her. She is very weak and it's hard for her to swallow. Even small ones and I really have to push very far in the mouth. When I did them soft it was staying on the entrance of the throat, making her suffocate  and when harder she wanted to vomit... so I tried with the peas I took the skin off and coated with olive oil. It was much easier so she had 15. Very very slowly.
I gave her a herbal tea with cinnamon oregano and fennel she drank a lot.
Her eyes seem more lively, or maybe it's just me dreaming of her getting better.
Her poop has less and less seeds but is not looking good at all. Big diarrhea. It smells like dewormer...


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

As she is in a critical condition I would avoid for the moment solid food. I hate syringes but when Londo was sick and had her crop infection I gave her liquid formula (in her case very liquid formula) by syringe. Even my vet suggested that.
I prepared it with warm water and added probiotics and warm applesauce. I gave it in a very slow way. About dosage, I had to decide day by day but I gave very small amount of it. 

Are you able to use syringes? If someone could help you feeding her It would be easier and safer.

As I said, I hate using syringes because that could be dangerous but, in my case, it was the only way to save her. I'm only worried for your bird too.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Hi, yes I was thinking of this aswell... i don't have the proper crop feeding sringe and when I went to the shop it was all metal needles instead of thin catheters and it really didn't feel confident to use that so I gave up that idea. 
Anyway yesterday I used this








to give her the diluted applesauce because she didn't swallow when I gave her little by little with the sringe. I put it behind the breathing hole and to the right and it went alright slowly. Maybe I could do the same with thin formula ?
I'm sorry to ask this Colombina but do you think you could get Nystatin yourself or would it be too hard to get for you aswell ? 
Of course I would pay for everything pharmacy doctor/vet and posting.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

This is a photo I got from a FB pigeon group reg droppings.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

She might have an e-coli infection. If she is not eating seeds, then there won't be any in her droppings. Go ahead and start her on the amoxy. She is not going to survive. Also very liquid formula, little bits throughout the day. I would stick to acv in the drinking water and also add a pinch of cinnamon to the formula, these are natural anti-yeast products.


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

She was dead this morning when I checked her. Her crop was empty.
Under her body she had a huge dropping full of big seeds inside. Again not smelly. 

I'm sorry and sad she was lovely and didn't deserve all this suffering I should have done more.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very very sorry to hear that she did not make it.

We can't tell that for sure but, as I told you, I think that probably she had a bacterial infection. Unfortunately in case of bacterial infection an antibiotic is absolutely needed.

If you want I could try to get some nystatin (I can't guarantee anything...), let me know something...

A big big hug ❤


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I forgot to say that when I had to feed very liquid formula to Londo I used common plastic 5 ml syringes (I'm not able to crop feeding). I think you can get them in any pharmacy.

Again, I'm very sorry. Some situations are horrible. I think it's a miracle Londo made it out. But some of my other birds did not make it. That's devastating. Again, a big hug ❤.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear that. At least she didn't die alone out on the street, she was with somebody that cared. Unfortunately when you start rescueing, you should be prepared that you will lose some. Not all can be saved. It's always heartbreaking. xx


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you ladies for your support ❤ 
Indeed I am devastated, can't stop crying. 
I've already had some who died. Babies, cat injuries etc.. It's always been hard but I don't know why this one really broke my heart.. 💔

I had to know why she died. Her beak was half open and the entrance of her throat was swollen so she suffocated ? I put tweezers to see in her throat and it was full of capillaris worms  all dead but hundreds of them... a real nightmare... it was litteraly blocked with them.
I didn't investigate further, coudn't bear it.
I don't know if she would have made it even with nystatin and the proper antibiotics ?


My mother tells me that I am no vet or rehabber and that it would have been better for her to euthanize so she wouldn't have suffered like that and I think she is right...

She says that maybe I sould let Bowie and Fuego to the vet school because we see no real improvement and they need professionnals to cure properly...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If you had her euthanized straight away, you would always have wondered if she could not have been saved. Sounds as if she had a overload of worms.

Honestly, if the other two were in my care I won't take them to a vet school. Is that where vets to be get their training? How do you know those two pigeons won't get put down and disected as part of the training? I might be wrong. Surely if they treat pigeons, there must be plenty in recovery.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Personally I'm not for euthanasia. I know that some people would have euthanized Londo and even Caterina (she had a very bad yeasts infection in 2017). They both were in a terrible condition. My vets thought that they would have died. But we fought hard. For a long time. I lost some of my other birds (I still suffer a lot for that, it's hard to accept that they are gone) but Londo and Caterina are still there. They both are very happy. Caterina also became mum! 

As I said time ago (in your other thread) I would not leave a pigeon there, I fear that they would simply euthanize him. That would be very sad.
I read your other thread and it seems that Fuego and Bowie are both improving. Just be patient...


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## Pigeonsonbalcony (Aug 13, 2021)

Try her with soft food, like the food for young chicks so she can digest it more easily and the apple baby food mixed. I fed a very young chick with this and it cheered up and was really perky. As long as you research and use the correct food/vitamins going forward, once the pigeon has perked up with the mulched food. Does you vet not check for illness?


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## Selphiechen (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you I'm really sorry about what I said... I was just not feeling good and I guess my mother was afraid that it would be much worse if I lost any more of them... 

You are right, I would have regretted it if I had her euthanized because I would have wondered if she might have lived a long life, it's still hard to know that she suffered alot.

Bowie and Fuego are improving and I'm keeping them until they are releasable. 

Thanks again for you support, Hugs 🫂


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## FITANDCHIC (Nov 20, 2020)

Selphiechen said:


> Hi, 4th pigeon at home... 😅
> This evening there has been a big storm (still pouring down at the moment 4 hours later) and I saw from the window a young pigeon stucked on the roof, absolutely soaked trying to fly and land on the floor. It went to a building entrance and stood there, waiting for the rain to stop.
> 
> So I ran and took it, thinking that I would release it when dry and when the rain would stop.
> ...


Hold onto the boo for a few days and see. That's what I'd do.


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