# Feeding to win in the Florida heat and humidity



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

*Just trying to get some good info on how to feed to win here in Florida. I know the feeding of the young bird team is going to have to different from what I feed in Michigan.

Hoping some of you southern flyers will be able to tell me what to do, what to feed and what not to feed. I plan to make my own feed mix. I do know no corn but from there what other grains are good in this heat and humidity and what else should I stay away from...

Mark/Ace*


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## heeler (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm in Fl too and I'm REALLY looking forward to the responses coming in this thread. I have had the good fortune to speak with several of the Fl folks from this site and I hope they add as much info as possible for guys like me and you. Thx for starting this.


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

I would call mr. Hackemer and speak to him he does awesome long races not so well but awesome overall.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I am quite a bit farther south on the Treasure Coast, north of Miami. It's even hotter and more humid than Spring Hill.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

After checking on average summer temps with humidity. The heat is not all that bad Average temp 83 degrees. with up to 80 percent humidity. About 93 degrees heat index. And if young bird races are in the fall. Sept and later. I see not much feed change As for standard mix. And you can check local feed supplys they should have the standard mix THAt has been used there. NOW RAIN sounds like a problem. And I would You would need to do some tosses in light rains to help. Then you are probably racing from the NORTH to the south. Around here summer temps can be from 100 to 110 and more BUT remember temp highs are after noon. So first of the race is at the morning lows and often over before the full heat is there. Excpt for the 250 mile and up. Then you would be at a lower temp high. I would check the local flyers But feed. and good training plus the right birds Is a way to go. Might think of some kind of mix for putting oils into the feathers. like hemp. sunflower ect.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I think re lee is on to something. I at first thought this was a trick question but after thinking about it some thoughts came to me. First you could use some rice and rape seed on shipping day instead of corn, corn I believe has more sodium in it which could lead to thirst. You could check into popcorn instead of regular corn but I can't say what the values are right now. 
In reality much of what your birds are using for nourishment on race day will be from feed fed a few days before(24 to 48hours)so I don't think the corn would cause an issue on Wednesday and Thursday feedings and I know you said before you feed after the birds trap in from training which I assume would be in the morning when its not as hot and they would have access to fresh water at that time.
The oil is a good idea to add 1% fat to the mix but I would stay away from sunflower oil the omega 6 to 3 is way off, I would use cold pressed flax oil instead and by keeping the protein lower and the end of the week their digestion should not be difficult. 

It will be interesting what others have to say.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just got word from John in ABQ who sent some birds to Spring Hill this year. LL 723 was 35th vs 1901 birds for Brothers loft. It is off two Hill birds down from my stock and 801 stuff. He is flying two off Hill blood 723 and 725. They are off birds that Cliff flew in 09. The guys brother flies in ABQ. He might be willing to fly some birds for you (ACE). Also might be able to give you some insight on how he feeds. Let me know I will get his info off of John.


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## logangrmnr (Jul 14, 2010)

Ace, everyone in my club just buy a good quality race mix with corn and feed it 7 days a week. On that some forks add more canary, safflower, hemp and dent corn. My old mix was racing pigeon mix and I added layer pellets, corn and hemp to it. Everyone also has there go to vitamins and minerals they like to add. This past season I switched to purina green and gold pellets. With that I didn't add any thing else to there diet and did a lot better than I expected. With the new feeding schedule also came a new training schedule. The biggest thing is feed the birds what there bodies need and train, train and train. You can train the mess out of them as young bird and there bodies adapt and recover, but you have to finesse as old birds. One of the biggest things about racing here is respiratory and pox. I've seen guys that dominated up north then move here and fly and fail hard. Racing here is a lot different. Take this years baby season as a learning experience. Write down everything you do and see from feeding, training, watching the birds every day and the weather and winds. Hope this helps Erik. If you want to see my results go see Al Stebbins and look at the combine reports from 09 to 13. Our loft name is Tian loft from 09 to 12 and ELM loft for 13.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Mark you might be able to get this feed over in the spring hill pet store . I believe that Matador feed sold there if not its a good place to start.




Premium Sprint 


This mixture is especially developed for the sprinting distances. During these short distance races the expenditure of carbohydrates (glycogen) is very important. A pigeon can develop a maximum speed during the expenditure of glycogen. Premium Sprint is especially developed with long working carbohydrates (amylopectine) so the pigeons can fly at their maximum speed for a longer period. This gives them the lead they need to win top positions. This mixture also contains limited protein, to prevent oxygen-charges to occur. 


Premium Sprint
Premium Sprint 



Composition:


Marano maize
Cribs maize
Pigeon wheat
Feed barley
Milo corn
White Dari
Pealed oats
Paddy rice 
Rice
Millet yellow
Vetches
Mung beans
Toasted soybeans
Maple peas
Green peas

Contents:

Raw protein 11,4%
Raw fat 3,8%
Carbohydrates 66,1%
Raw fibre 3,6%
Kcal 3216
Omega ratio 22:1



<< Back


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Here is a young bird mix hope you fine it helpful. 


With this professional line Matador chooses very eminent, light digestible mixtures that ensure the best possible condition for the pigeon. This relieves the pigeon of unnecessary ballast-substances.

Matador Premium


Premium Racing Young 


The ideal racing mixture for youngsters. This mixture can be given every day. Premium Racing Young is especially developed for and attuned to racing with youngsters. 


Premium Racing Young
Premium Racing Young 



Composition:


Marano maize
French red maize
Cribs maize
Pigeon wheat
Feed barley
Milo corn
White Dari
Pealed oats
Paddy rice
Safflower
Sunflower seed
Linseed / Flax 
Rape seed
Hemp
Millet yellow
Canary seed
Buckwheat
Vetches
Mung beans
Toasted soybeans
Maple peas
Yellow peas
Small green peas

Contents:

Raw protein 13,1%
Raw fat 7,2%
Carbohydrates 58,9%
Raw fibre 5,9% 
Kcal 3277
Omega ratio 5:1



<< Back


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Mark we both know one person that has a vast knowledge in this sport and I have been trying to worm information out of him for years now. I slowly have been gaining some knowledge about feeding and racing. I know Les always tells me that you want your birds leading the pack , that's the only way to the winners circle. 

A few more things to think about . First a pigeon flies it's fastest in the first 15 minutes of flying so if you can add some grape sugar to the water for the last two days before shipping to build up the blood sugar you could gain a few minutes of the faster flight time to lead the pack right out of the crate. Also making sure the birds have fresh water most of the day before basket time . The carbohydrates are the fuel for the second hour of flight and the last thing is if the races are over 1 hour your birds will need 3 to 3.5 grams of stored fat per hour to keep flying at a steady pace. Based on a average that a pigeon will eat around 200 grams of feed in a week you will then be able to figure the amount of fat needed in your feed % wise based on this information and don't forget to minus the training time you are flying your birds during the week. So for a 6 hour flight - the first hour of flight ( fuel used is stored carb) so the rest of the race you will need stored fat. 5 hours of flight x3.0 grams of fat = 15 grams of fat, if your feed is 5% fat and the bird eats 200 grams a week (200x0.05 = 10)you bird will have 10 grams of fat reserves which is not enough for that race.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Spanish Peanuts*

You have a lot of great advice about feed mixture's - but if you don't feed peanuts it is impossible to be competitive each week.
Check with your local feed store and ask how many local fanciers use them.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Bob check out the Matador web site they have a mix with peanuts too . I think its the best feed selection I've seen anywhere it's just not available in the US. Maybe in Florida but not anywhere else . If I was in the heart of pigeon country I would try to get a dealership from them.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Peanuts*

I really like feeding separate. I can control the amount , makes birds extremely 
tame and trapping is never a problem.
I know they are expensive , but a fancier not using peanuts is at a great disadvantage. It really does not matter what part of the country you live or the climate - they are a must if you want to achieve top results and be competitive each race. I have said it many times , I know of no champion loft that does not use them .


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

bob prisco said:


> I really like feeding separate. I can control the amount , makes birds extremely
> tame and trapping is never a problem.
> I know they are expensive , but a fancier not using peanuts is at a great disadvantage. It really does not matter what part of the country you live or the climate - they are a must if you want to achieve top results and be competitive each race. I have said it many times , I know of no champion loft that does not use them .


Yes I agree that peanuts are very good as you say but they must be fed at the right time. For a pigeon to convert a peanut to stored fat in the red muscle requires 36 to 48 hours, so if you wait till shipping day to feed them it too late. Peanuts fed on shipping day will how ever provide extra fats in the blood for the first hour of flight which can be very helpful. 3 peanuts are equal to 1 gram of fat , so 6 peanuts fed each day for 5 days could build up an extra 10 grams of fat which is enough fat for 3 hours of flying.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Peanuts*

We feed them every day - It starts with our breeders , when they are feeding young they get a few everyday . This is a easy way to teach the YBS. to eat them and require a taste. Once they are on flying team they get them everyday. As the training gets tougher and longer we increase the amount , peanuts are a regular part of the pigeons diet at our loft.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Are you just giving the whole peanuts? I mix peices with my feed 10% and they fly longer than before I did that. On shiping day I feed peanut peices and saflower, we box birds on Thursday afternoon for a Saturday release for the 400 and longer races.

Any ideas on what should be fed when they are released, the guy that hauls them just gives them corn and all the water they want. this is just for the 400 and up races. Keep in mind we fly Oklahoma and Texas, so they have to be ready for 90 + degree heat.
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Dave most places only give corn before the release on a 2 day shipping because it is good feed for the normal day activity and it wouldn't upset the birds intestinal tract. Corn is a good source of carbohydrates and helps them maintain condition in the basket. Its also good for the flight home. For one night in the basket no peas and the rest should be high energy mix. For 2 nights in the basket feed should be 1/2 racing mix and super energy and some candy feeds on the afternoon of shipping. If you talking super long distance and many nights in the basket your talking 4 days to build them up but fed normal amounts so they will still eat when in the baskets. If there is a hold over for many days the birds should get a balanced feed which is easily digested not just corn.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Excessive heat when racing is a different matter and I can't really tell you anything except the organization should have some kind of limits when it comes to heat.

I know ACE didn't get his questions answered about the heat but one thing is certain that the nutritional requirements for flight remain the same except that a highly trained and fit bird will metabolize their feed better than an under trained bird in poor condition.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*peanuts*

We feed the peanuts whole with onion skin still on. It is my belief that anytime a grain is crushed you lose a great deal of nutritional value.

I do not think CORN would be my first choice for 2 day shipping, especially if weather is warm. I would prefer a balanced commercial mix about 16% protein.

I have many friends in Florida and yes it is a lot different to race and be competitive.
Feed would be the least of my problems , go to feed store and you can see what fanciers are buying and what is in stock. 
A excellent health program is the most important - you have to medicate on a weekly program during race season.
The hawks are bad ! Many tell me after birds are settled , little loft flying and mostly road training. The fanciers that seem to complete all training by 10 am and have birds in loft and resting the rest of day seem to do well.

I also think large numbers on a race team would be a big disadvantage.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> Dave most places only give corn before the release on a 2 day shipping because it is good feed for the normal day activity and it wouldn't upset the birds intestinal tract. Corn is a good source of carbohydrates and helps them maintain condition in the basket. Its also good for the flight home. For one night in the basket no peas and the rest should be high energy mix. For 2 nights in the basket feed should be 1/2 racing mix and super energy and some candy feeds on the afternoon of shipping. If you talking super long distance and many nights in the basket your talking 4 days to build them up but fed normal amounts so they will still eat when in the baskets. If there is a hold over for many days the birds should get a balanced feed which is easily digested not just corn.


I dont think our combine sec. knows what the Weather channel is, we dont have hold overs. Most people dont train on rain days I do, the birds need to know how to fly through it. Yes I watch the weather and a lot of time I dont send birds.
Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I know several people who just feed milo and whole corn year around. They do well in club and combine races. And there birds look good. Are very tame and trap fast. . Feeding idea is different in different parts of the world Here in the USA it has a great balance. Far as heat the temps after checking are not bad. mostlyt 80s for a high. it is the humidity that becomes some what a problem. BUT early races should not be as effected as moring lows would help. say the 250 mile races and less. Then the 25o plus the humidity heat index would be In the 90s which. Some people do not worry. The conditioning with good traing I think would help alot. When babied and only flown in early mornings. the birds do not experiance the hotter humid conditios. So after noon fly around the loft should be done also. When the birds come down and are no longer panting open breaked They are getting there. And some lines would be effected by wet canker with the humidity. I would think. . Peanuts is a very old idea that many have used for distance races. The shorter races require the right type of birds and good motivation. to get home. Where widowhood works great. So can even flying to the perch IF the birds are truely good enough for the race coarse. What about a hawk issue. That is a good way to scatter and take the birds off the line home. Just have to try a decent method. What about checking with some OLR to see there feed pattern also. plus local flyers.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Feeding*

Just CORN and MILO ! Would love to fly against those fancier each week .
I bet they are tame and trap fast . 
Every fancier has his own idea's about feeding , medication , etc. and if they work and are satisfied with their results that is all that matters.
Our theory has always been , we are training a athlete and to compete at a high level certain things are necessary. When fanciers start cutting corners ,their results usually show on race day.
As for peanuts , old or new theory , does not matter , we expect our birds to compete each week from 100-500 miles. We keep a small number on race team and they must be in excellent condition and health every week. 
Feeding peanuts has allowed us to achieve this goal.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

bob prisco said:


> Just CORN and MILO ! Would love to fly against those fancier each week .
> I bet they are tame and trap fast .
> Every fancier has his own idea's about feeding , medication , etc. and if they work and are satisfied with their results that is all that matters.
> Our theory has always been , we are training a athlete and to compete at a high level certain things are necessary. When fanciers start cutting corners ,their results usually show on race day.
> ...


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Our 500 last year was a hot one. We didn't ship many birds and only one fellow had day birds. He had two. He was running low on money and told me he was feeding them chicken scratch from Southern States. I don't think he was pulling my leg. I'm at a loss to explain it.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Truth*

The sad part about our hobby or sport is that fanciers will not help other fanciers. Most are afraid of the competition and offer statements that are so far from the truth most do not know what to believe.
I find that when you provide information to fanciers most do not believe you.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Kastle Loft said:


> Our 500 last year was a hot one. We didn't ship many birds and only one fellow had day birds. He had two. He was running low on money and told me he was feeding them chicken scratch from Southern States. I don't think he was pulling my leg. I'm at a loss to explain it.


Chicken scratch for a sprint , sure but the distance ??? You did say very few day birds and sometimes on a smash or tough race the birds that try hardest don't make it so it could be possible that his just hobbled along and made it home . They could have been a little over weight to start ,stopped for a drink when others didn't and those cramped up, you never know . That's why I questioned this post from the start about different feeding methods but in the end the basic grains like corn can go alone way in bring our birds home.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

bob prisco said:


> The sad part about our hobby or sport is that fanciers will not help other fanciers. Most are afraid of the competition and offer statements that are so far from the truth most do not know what to believe.
> I find that when you provide information to fanciers most do not believe you.


I believe what you said. And am glad you took the time to say your words.. I just offered an open view that several things can effect the out come. If it was just in the feed well it would be easy to win. I am glad you take the time to share your knowledge. Just as others do Truth is every one wants to win and few want to compete to win. Its part of the steps you take.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

The question of other facters in racing pigeons was not part of the question asked in this thread because I believe I have all of the other facters covered. Feeding for the heat and humidity here in south Florida is the one "Spoke in the wheel" for this winning team that is not in place.

I will feed peanuts...

Can anyone tell me why I was told by the Spring Hill Pet Store that Browns feed Breeder with small corn was to hot of a feed for down here???

In the past I have used this feed as my base feed for my mix. Adding barley, popcorn, safflower and others...


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Just got word from John in ABQ who sent some birds to Spring Hill this year. LL 723 was 35th vs 1901 birds for Brothers loft. It is off two Hill birds down from my stock and 801 stuff. He is flying two off Hill blood 723 and 725. They are off birds that Cliff flew in 09. The guys brother flies in ABQ. *He might be willing to fly some birds for you (ACE). Also might be able to give you some insight on how he feeds. Let me know I will get his info off of John.*




*That would be great Randy. See if you can get his info for me.*


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

One of the reasons, and that would be a guess is that corn contains higher amounts of sodium than other grains. I suggested you use rice instead but I think that got washed over in the conversation.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

The old timers around here say that corn is "hot" - in that it generates a lot of energy and is therefor good for feeding in the cold when they need to generate energy to keep warm. I assume the same would be true in hot weather - but that the corn would generate too much heat and be detrimental. Carbs could be generated through other grains, like rice as Erik K suggests.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Producers sometimes talk about "hot" feeds and "cool" feeds. We must discern whether the discussion is about energy content or actual heat production. Corn and other concentrates are sometimes called "hot" feeds. This is in reference to their higher energy content compared to hay or straw (cool feeds). However, corn and other concentrates contribute less to the heat of fermentation or digestion than hay. Therefore cattle actually produce less actual heat when consuming corn than when consuming hay. 

An excessive level of protein during heat stress may be detrimental. The excess nitrogen supplied by the protein must be detoxified and prepared for excretion (via urine). This is a biochemical pathway that is very high in energy demands.

Increased water consumption will increase excretion of urine. This will also increase the loss of certain minerals, such as sodium (a part of salt), potassium, and magnesium. Free choice trace mineral salt should be provide in a location that the animals will consume it.


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## Rod Hultquist (Aug 23, 2009)

I've not raced in Florida, but I did live in Pasco County for a year. Young bird races start the end of September and end the first week in December. Although early October can be rather warm, temperatures this time of the year begin to taper off and become more moderate.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

If your worried about heat I would think that it would be more important to train your birds to drink in the basket and that 's up to your new club to provide water. A 200 mile race at 45 mph 4 hours and 40 minutes flying time so 14 grams of body fat. You can keep your birds pretty lean and accomplish that.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*What if ?*

If we keep our birds lean and it is a tough race and instead of 4 -5 hours on the wing the bird is flying 7-8 hours or longer. What kind of condition would a lean bird return - skin and bones. Is that bird able to compete next week ?
Neve could understand , why we try to control feed and weight - a bird in regular training and offered free choice of feed will not put on weight.
The bird knows more about what he needs than the trainer - given a variety of grains he will select what he needs and be a lot happier and in better health.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

bob prisco said:


> If we keep our birds lean and it is a tough race and instead of 4 -5 hours on the wing the bird is flying 7-8 hours or longer. What kind of condition would a lean bird return - skin and bones. Is that bird able to compete next week ?
> Neve could understand , why we try to control feed and weight - a bird in regular training and offered free choice of feed will not put on weight.
> The bird knows more about what he needs than the trainer - given a variety of grains he will select what he needs and be a lot happier and in better health.


I can see your trying to put words in my mouth . Birds in race condition should be fit and buoyant. If I said lean, that might be the wrong choice of words. I know that a pigeon need 3 grams of body fat to fly each hour after the first hour of flight so I wasn't suggesting starving the birds although many birds get entered into races way over weight and I'm sure you have seen that before if you have any experience at all. You should also know that when a pigeon is built up for a race and the race turns out to be an easy one SOMETIMES the birds need to taken down in weight or condition . That is a fact my friend. Some people have the idea that free choice feeding is the way to go and if it work for you then that's great. I never knew a pigeon that knew how to read a race schedule before and lets just say for fun that we will be shipping on Friday for a 400 mile race . If you free choice feed all week and by Wednesday or Thursday your free choice fed pigeons decides it's full and doesn't eat enough fat on those days it will be late for sure on Saturday.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I have never fed free choice to a young race team and I never will. 

I will find the info I am looking for before it comes time to condition this team for the races this season or I'm not the Ace in the hole.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

This is a link to some good information peanuts hope it works www.whfoods.com/genapage type in peanut in the search box hit seach. then scroll down hit peanuts


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

re lee said:


> This is a link to some good information peanuts hope it works www.whfoods.com/genapage type in peanut in the search box hit seach. then scroll down hit peanuts


Thanks, That may help.

One thing on there I was thinking about adding to my feed is the sunflower.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Mark there is some articles on http://www.pigeonbasics.com by Bob Rowland . I believe he races in Florida and also on Steven van Breemen 's web site talking about heat and flying in the heat etc.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> Mark there is some articles on http://www.pigeonbasics.com by Bob Rowland . I believe he races in Florida and also on Steven van Breemen 's web site talking about heat and flying in the heat etc.


Thanks Eric, I will check that out.

Will you be ready for your birds mid to late April or would the first part of May be best for you? Just trying to take care of you and Shokri ahead of the other young I'm selling from the third round.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> Thanks Eric, I will check that out.
> 
> Will you be ready for your birds mid to late April or would the first part of May be best for you? Just trying to take care of you and Shokri ahead of the other young I'm selling from the third round.


April would be fine, but you could send them anytime you want to. Do you want me to send you some bands or do you have extra.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> April would be fine, but you could send them anytime you want to. Do you want me to send you some bands or do you have extra.


I will band your's and Sho's with the (blue) "Ace In The Hole" bands.
That way even though these birds will be your's, they will still REPRESENT...


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I forgot you had custom bands, that works for me. I'm hoping for pedigrees too


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> I forgot you had custom bands, that works for me. I'm hoping for pedigrees too


If you stock them I'll send you all of their peds. If you race them I'll send peds in the fall for every bird still in your loft. How's that...?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> If you stock them I'll send you all of their peds. If you race them I'll send peds in the fall for every bird still in your loft. How's that...?


Sounds good.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Good thing I am getting birds from you again, things are moving slowly here and most of my first round is promised to be sent out but it's soo cold.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

First To Hatch said:


> Good thing I am getting birds from you again, things are moving slowly here and most of my first round is promised to be sent out but it's soo cold.


Don't worry about sending any young this way then. Build your team first...


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

ace in the hole said:


> Don't worry about sending any young this way then. Build your team first...


If I get them before your dead line then I'll definitely send you some


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