# White feathers fit or not fit for racing?



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Well here goes, I've heard many flyer's say that white feathered birds are no good for racers, "especially all white birds", even going so far saying that the white feather is weak? personally I can't believe that the color of the feather matters much, I've seen many top birds that have white flights, so where is the weakness in the white flights of these birds? I would like to hear others thoughts on this, is there any real research that supports white feathers as being weaker or inferior compared to colored birds feathers.? Some well known racers believe this to be a fact but i can't find anything to prove or disprove it!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I've copied part of the article listed. I didn't read the whole thing, but did find this. I GUESS it makes sense? I've always heard that the feathers of white birds are weaker too. I don't have but one white bird, so can't say one way or the other. 

http://petcaretips.net/bird-feather.html


_How are the colors produced in feathers? Light comes from the sun
in waves. Each color has a specific wave length. When something
appears colored, the object absorbs all the wave lengths of light
except the one it reflects. The reflected light is the color one
sees. Substances that produce colors are called pigments. Black,
brown, some red, and dull yellow in feathers are produced by
pigments called melanin. Melanin are microscopic particles found
in the shaft and barbs of feathers. Black melanin is rod shaped
but the others are oval shaped. The more melanin particles
present, the darker the color. Feathers with lots of melanin are
stronger. Consequently, it is not uncommon for white birds to
have wing tips that are black, because the wingtips are
constantly battered by the wind and need to be stronger._


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

*baloney*

i can not imagine that.i have had so many birds with white feathers,and many that have diplomas or won 500 and 600 mile races i have to call baloney on that.barcelona grizzles have both dark and white feathers,but sometimes predominantly white and are well known for being great all distance but mostly 500 and 600 mile birds.alot of the old family long distance pigeons had white flights.i could go on and on.no offense to anyone,but baloney. lol


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I don't believe so for one if white was inferior feather wise I don't think we would have so many pure white wild birds. Look at herons and egrets for example. There are all white birds in these family that have no black at all on them. Yet there are also white birds with black wing tips. White pelican. white ibis, snow geese just to name a few. So I am not sure??? Lovebirds post has me thinking.


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## zimmzimm3 (Aug 17, 2007)

Grim said:


> I don't believe so for one if white was inferior feather wise I don't think we would have so many pure white wild birds. Look at herons and egrets for example. There are all white birds in these family that have no black at all on them. Yet there are also white birds with black wing tips. White pelican. white ibis, snow geese just to name a few. So I am not sure??? Lovebirds post has me thinking.


Same here lovebirds post makes me think too   hmmmmm


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i just looked thru records going back to 1971.mind you i kind of skimmed thru and found atleast 27 birds that flew and diploma- or won 500 and 600 mile races.one particular bird that was predominantly white flew 500 and 600 12 times and died of old age not bad feathers.my old dean pallett family of van reets had mostly white wing feathers and they were about as tough as you can get out thru 350 miles.i had abilenes back in the 70s that flew 1000 miles,more than once.and they were almost all white.i had busshaerts from england that were blue and dark check,and blue bar,but many with almost all white flights that were almost impossible to lose once they were yearling or older.i have studied pigeons and their wings for as long as i can remember,and there is no difference in a white or dark feather.not any other than pigment,and i dont believe dark pigment adds strength to a feather.and there is no scientific evidence to support any claim of that.

to me the proofs in the results and the results dont lie.


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i just looked in an old book by the late great otto meyer who could arguably read feathers.he could come in your loft and identify birds by only viewing the feathers as to which ones had just flown.he could identify alot of things about the birds by looking at the feathers.but,in 200+ pages of this book he never once mentions white feathers being weaker,pigment having anything to do with anything in his book.for those of you who havent heard of him.otto was a great pigeon man that was instrumental in the breeding of birds in the signal corps in ww2.he wrote many articles and books on pigeons bodys,wings,and especially feathers.he demonstrated his talent on many occasions identifying things about peoples pigeons that he couldnt have possibly known by reading their feathers.

as for fanciers who believe this,how about ones who dont?mike ganus...some of his best pigeons are predominantly white.the late brad laverne who had forgotten more about pigeons than most any of us know absolutely loved white pigeons...chic brooks(hapyco)i could go on and on.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Renee, thank you for that interesting article, hope I am not reading anything into it but to me it seems to point out that colored flights are a bit more stronger(or should I say Durable) than white flights? Sooo here's my take on it, you have two feathers one white, one with pigment both will do the job required of it equally good in any manner shape or form, but the colored flight will breakdown or wear out at a much lesser rate if i understand what is meant by stronger? Again very interesting article, K-will, zimmzimm, and Grim thanks for your input!


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

If you like you can listen to this view about the white flights in pigeons however he did say it was only his view on it but states the breakdown of the white feathers?

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/18533_homing-pigeons-color-variations.htm


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I have to say something on this one, I am no expert but the results from our club shows, that one Gent in our club flys Griz mostly white birds. for the year there average speed 1525 YPM from 150 miles to 500 Miles.
so for me I don't think it makes a difference its in the blood what counts.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

I agree, and what is burn out anyways, i guess you would have to fly with out considering the birds condition before that could happen?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Feather quality is the factor In white birds or white flighted birds. And all softer colored birds. When in notice a softer feathered bird the flight ends break down faster. Breed torwads better feathere quality you see less break down. Softer the feather thiner the quill, and thinner the webing. which cause the feather to seperted and fray more. You would notice this more in inbred and less controled pairing over time. When you see a thin feather that you can basicly see right thru then it is mor prone to break down. Just watch and breed to offset the fault. White birds can win races white flighted birds have won many a race. Just never over work the bird no matter the color.


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## The Flying Kiwi (Jun 4, 2007)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> Renee, thank you for that interesting article, hope I am not reading anything into it but to me it seems to point out that colored flights are a bit more stronger(or should I say Durable) than white flights? Sooo here's my take on it, you have two feathers one white, one with pigment both will do the job required of it equally good in any manner shape or form, but the colored flight will breakdown or wear out at a much lesser rate if i understand what is meant by stronger? Again very interesting article, K-will, zimmzimm, and Grim thanks for your input!


In my experience i think your take on this subject is as close to point that i can think of!!!

We had a great racer who won every race hs was entered in and he was whiter than the beauty in the pic by my name up top But...........

Back to your comment on the breakdown of feathers white most certainly breaksdown faster than colored feathers we had a bird return nearly a year later after being sent to a race his colors faded big time but the few white flights he had were absolutly stuffed he went on to moult them out and is now back to his former color.
The white feathers of our race birds that live in cosy lofts down in the back yard are far better of than the ones of birds living on hill sides and roof tops

Cheers Kiwi


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I doubt that colour has anything to do wit the flying abilities. Arent there white racing homers?


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

in my view,,,it cause nothing to do with the color, color is not the factor on this!! it on the blood on how strong or diluted it is to produce white and how good the crossbreed line is.. in most cases white thats win races are cross to something and inbreed it back to white in order to produce solid white that win... so its a rarely cases that white to white breeding will produce winners and sometimes breeders over due it and produce weak birds and if the birds dont perform they blame on its color white... remember colors dont fly its on how good the bloodline is.... some people say white color attract hawks, so as any color, any color is a hawks favorite as long as theirs meat on it, its a meal...


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I don't think that having white feathers precludes a racing pigeon from being as good as a racing pigeon that does not have white feathers. However, I do think that taking into consideration the color of a racing pigeons feathers when selecting breeders, and not just concentrating on racing results, will in the long run result in a slight loss of racing ability. Which over time, can build upon itself and cause a less than excellent line of racing pigeons. Sure, you can get a white or bird with some white, out of excellent racers put together to breed just on their abilities and race results, but those do not count in this equation. If someone (say for white dove releases, etc) breeds just for the color (or lack thereof), then you will lose something. I would be interested to know if professional thoroughbred race horse owners, EVER take coloration into consideration, when deciding how best to get the next champion.


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i would be interested to see where the scientific proof is that make people say that pigment makes a flight feather stronger.yes,i as well have heard some say this,but they never could say where they learned this from.i have always tried to believe in something based on facts not theory.the facts for me are i have had a big amount of long distance pigeons with white flight feathers that flew many 500 and 600 mile races,some 1000 multiple times.these birds feathers held up as well as anything i was flying at the time.
in fact,the more i look and remeber pigeons i had in the 70s,most of them had white flights,or atleast some.

the proof is in results.not theorys

i might add from a nature point of view,we have ospreys(fish eagles) in the south that fish daily in the water that have white colored flights.if their white feathers wouldnt hold up because of pigment,they would be walking.lol


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When a person fails to notice the feather quality in the softer colored birdsYou breed in time weaker feathered birds. That is a fact. Most blue colored birds have what is called a harder feather And produce that in consistance. Take any ressesive color. Be it red yellow cream brown Then include white Over time the feather quality breaks down. IF the breeder fails to off set the fault. Sure white feathers hold up and most white flighted birds/ pied ect have a harder white feather. NOW to hard of feather the feather breaks You want a pliable hard feathered bird Where the feather flexes well in flight/ Mainly primary as these are the main stroke of flight. I have white birds plus afew grizzles to put over to white. I am watching the feather quality. A few I consider a little soft and will off set that with a stronger feathered bird. INBREEDING often is the root when color breeding is done But controled it can be offset. The finer the feather the faster it breaks down. AGIN reduce the quill size and feather webing the feather gets weak to flight Same with the tail. Strong flexable quilled birds stronger webed feathers ,you see less thin feathered birds. Have you erver noticed the bird where you could basicly see right through the feather, then noticed the thin quill and how easy the webing frade. In flight the feather breaks down . and on the tougher race it is tested harder. NOW with this said It is up to the breeder of a chosen color to keep its strenghs. If find grizzle hens ove to white cocks Produce close to 50% white birds and %05 colored be it grizzle or other hidden colors as pieid birds. This helps in breeding better whites And keeping up feather quality. I chose white as a personal challenge. As many people fail to reconize Its the bird not the color that wins the race. And WHITES can race and win. Just build the quality. Some people if the bird is not blue check or blue bar will not keep it in the loft. Sure more birds are NOW blue. The other colors fly just as well Just need to be bred and tested. Plus I was getting bored not haveing birds to work with. And as I have said many times You can have a bird that is pink with yellow polka dots If it starts winning and breedes winners People will want that bird People want winners no matter the color. Color breeding is both art and skill. Just as understanding what it takes to breed winning birds. Many a top breeder found a key bird that had NO pedigree and built a foundation arounf that bird. Didnt Ludo have a lost bird come to his loft. And go on to breed many good birds from that bird. The janssens bought a bird that was in a rabbit pen and breed from it building the Famliy of birds. So white flight. pied, white, red, yellow, ect. Is the color inside that color is the bird. There you find the quality.


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

re-lee,i see where you are coming from on the feathers.atleast you explained your reasoning with examples that make sense.while i still dont agree with all you are saying,i will watch out for what you have said in my birds i am breeding.im breeding out of all white grizzles.mind you,they came from colored pigeons,and there is color in some of the wings,but i will monitor the feather quality.thank you for an intelligent response.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

k-will said:


> re-lee,i see where you are coming from on the feathers.atleast you explained your reasoning with examples that make sense.while i still dont agree with all you are saying,i will watch out for what you have said in my birds i am breeding.im breeding out of all white grizzles.mind you,they came from colored pigeons,and there is color in some of the wings,but i will monitor the feather quality.thank you for an intelligent response.


I would recomend you get a few good marked grizzle hens to put over your white/ white grizlee select cocks. The better marked grizzles Do come from colored stock, be it blue over grizzle,ect. This should insure both the color base you are breeding towards And feather plus an avenue to increase the gene pool from for continued quality. . And even blue hen over any of your white grizzle cocks keeping the grizzled young or cross back any colored young hen. As the hen side pairing makes for faster color return Then a cock side pairing as cocks have a hidden color that comes out more often.


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## brendan (Mar 13, 2008)

i know in australia it is all white birds that are not very good to race as they are easy spotted by birds of prey like hawks and eagles. white feathers in a colored bird is ok just not all white birds.


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

k-will said:


> re-lee,i see where you are coming from on the feathers.atleast you explained your reasoning with examples that make sense.while i still dont agree with all you are saying,i will watch out for what you have said in my birds i am breeding.im breeding out of all white grizzles.mind you,they came from colored pigeons,and there is color in some of the wings,but i will monitor the feather quality.thank you for an intelligent response.


I also k-will am breeding a white grizzle hen to a white cock bird and hopeto get good young of them to race, the white grizzle hen i got a lend of a friend who paid good money for her, he got her from belguim, I would,nt like to loss her  . i wuld have to agree with you, the proof will be in the pudding


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> Feather quality is the factor In white birds or white flighted birds. And all softer colored birds. When in notice a softer feathered bird the flight ends break down faster. Breed torwads better feathere quality you see less break down. Softer the feather thiner the quill, and thinner the webing. which cause the feather to seperted and fray more. You would notice this more in inbred and less controled pairing over time. When you see a thin feather that you can basicly see right thru then it is mor prone to break down. Just watch and breed to offset the fault. White birds can win races white flighted birds have won many a race. Just never over work the bird no matter the color.


Hello Re Lee,

I have up to this point avoided the discussion, but you and I are on the same page. I discovered a long time ago, that my very lite colored silvers had flight feathers which did not hold up as well as the darker shades. But, when someone is really focused on something other then performance, such as color....say for example they want all white grizzles...then they will overlook the obvious. That's OK...but whenever you take your eye off the finish line, and being there 1st, well..... let's just say it shows up in the long term race results.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

I wish I could add to this discussion being that i have mostly white stock and my whites outfly my colored pigeons for the most part, but I dont race so I cant honestly say one way or the other in the feather wear an tear during the year ... I dont notice any more wear on my whites then my bluebars or checks though.. just my 2 cents


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If a key of quality is to be used. AS MANY SHOW TYPE people have found You have a desired color. But know when an other bird of a different color carries better quality. The person uses that other color to increase quality while strenghing the desired color base. Sure you fault on color But done right color comes back. And added quality it comes back very strong in compitition. Now Yes white stands out futher in the sky, that is why GOD made pigeons blue. And in the will white will not live real long. BUT with a safe loft to return to Light colored race birds can lead a good race life.. Using hens over desired colr cocks a person can reset color faster. And if the needed top bird is a cock put it vover the desired color hen raise and test the young hens out then use a young hen off that mating to reset color. Like say for racing homer silver. Use bared ash red/ also called mealybared over silver cock Or ash red hen over a red velet cock. As ash red carries a decent strong feather. ressesive red race birds as most can see still carry the blue factor. You notice it in the tail and flight feather fading from red to blue. BUT you notice on muelman reds birds often you see ressesive red birds that are red and white. better red color. The blue has been cleaned up some from the white. As many new or past 30 year colors has been put in race birds there have been breed out cross. This reduces the race factor and takes work getting it back Pretty birds. But many have had to be completly rebuilt into race birds agin. Thankfully most desired colors have been put in over the years. Finish work is still being done. It is hard just breeding any good bird then color breeding has to be understood to go forward. Agin color x s quality is the needed way. You build color some slower but build quality each year. And then get to wher you have the color for several years going strong. BUT keep a eye open knowing when to reintroduce the other colors agin to keep qualty up to scale. That is breeding is an art by its self. Be it color or just building the best bird you can It is the person each time that puts his hands on nature and the results are the reward. Color breeding you have to work harder Then most for the same reward. But the fun is you are doing something you like ,


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LokotaLoft said:


> I wish I could add to this discussion being that i have mostly white stock and my whites outfly my colored pigeons for the most part, but I dont race so I cant honestly say one way or the other in the feather wear an tear during the year ... I dont notice any more wear on my whites then my bluebars or checks though.. just my 2 cents


Lokota,

In my case, I would begin to see feather wear after about a 1,000 miles of racing, and that takes place after a 1,000+ miles of road training. It shows up faster if the bird is out on the lamb for a week after a race. So exposure to the elements may also be playing a role here. 

If you are simply keeping them around the loft, without the stress and wear and tear of racing, then you may not experience the wear factor. I on the other hand, am trying to uncover such details in order to breed a top family of racers, where even minute details can come into play.


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## Canadamanada (Jul 2, 2007)

This is a Gyrfalcon hybrid. It has white leading edges on its feathers and is one of the fastest birds in the world in level flight.

Justin


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Canadamanada said:


> This is a Gyrfalcon hybrid. It has white leading edges on its feathers and is one of the fastest birds in the world in level flight.
> 
> Justin


A picture of this bird may be interesting to some, but I really don't think it is relative to the discussion. The reason I suggest this, is because there may be many kinds of birds which have white feathers. At issue, is how white or very lite colored flight feathers hold up under the stress of road training and racing in racing pigeons.

Those who are more focused on these colors, always get defensive about the racing abilities of their white or lite colored birds. At issue is not the speed at which a bird can fly, or the fact that white or very lite colored birds have won races.

The issue is that many fanciers have noticed that these very lite colored feathers have not held up as well as darker colors. People a whole lot smarter then me, have figured this out a very long time ago. What a fancier chooses to do with this information is up to them.

I suspect that if a breeder overlooks conditions such as this, they are also overlooking many other things as well. But as someone posted elsewhere...we are not all in this game for the same reason, and so it is natural that we are not all breeding for the same thing. So take all of this....for what it is worth.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

It is true color doesn't fly, but what we are talking about is the durability of the white flights. I believe it is true that the white flights will brake down sooner than the darker flights. This is not saying a bird with white flights has less heart, drive or the ability to win races. The important thing here is that you should always check the condition of your birds before they are sent to a race (every race). This check should include the condition of the flights. Any bird with badly frayed flights should be pulled from the team. It is no longer in any condition to be a RACER! 

Those of you that do race will now be paying more attention to this from now on and in time will fine the answer to this question yourselves.

As for the white birds being more of a target for hawks. It is not the white pigeon, it is the pigeon that stands out that makes a better target. Most flocks are made up of mostly dark birds and maybe a white bird or two. That in itself makes the white birds easy to single out. If you had a whole flock of white birds and one blue bar, the blue bar would become the target!!

Ace


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i believe there may be something to what yous are saying,however someone forgot to tell my old abilene family their feathers wouldnt hold up as they used to log 3500 + miles some years when we flew 2 500s 1 600 and usually either a 900 or 1000 mile race.some of them flew all if not most all of these races,not to mention the shorter races and training.and these birds had all white feathers.unfortunately i dont have a scanner,because i have pics of some of the birds.not to mention some of my busshaerts.but,i will watch this with my white grizzles i have now,as they will get one heck of a test as old birds.

again thanks relee for the intelligent opinions.what you explained does make sense.


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## Tamarack (Sep 14, 2013)

k-will said:


> i just looked in an old book by the late great otto meyer who could arguably read feathers. He could come in your loft and identify birds by only viewing the feathers as to which ones had just flown.he could identify alot of things about the birds by looking at the feathers.
> 
> I am a naturalist doing research on feather reading and I heard about Otto Meyer's book on the topic. If anyone has a copy, would you be willing to sell or loan me your copy of the book?
> 
> ...


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