# loosing squabs



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, it's been awhile. hope somebody can help me? i purchased felts for the nest bowls in dec. put the bowls in with my breeders and lost 12 young so far. never had this poblem before. i checked for mites in the felt and do not see any. all of my breeders are seperated in their own breeding pens and never come in contact with each other the only thing i could think of is the felt linners i put in. this is the first year i'm using them. and so far all my young last 2 day. the parents all seem to be healthy and eating and drinking well. i would also liked to know if anybody else is experience the same thing, i shure hope not.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I doubt there's any way to test that theory without removing the felt. Dying at two days old is a bit fast for canker. It would be more likely for Salmonella or E. coli but that should happen a bit more inconsistently. 

Pidgey


----------



## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your losses. I've lifted the following from a UK forum:

PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL when buying nest felts, maybe take my advice and not buy them at all, some felts coming into the USA from Belgium have not been property processed and there is still bacteria from the used rags etc that are in their make up.

I have heard of several cases in the last few days where newly hatched babies are dying within about 24 hours of chipping out. The bacteria from the felts is attaching the babies trough their naval,


'Poo


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That doesn't sound good! So, if you're going to use them, you may need to microwave the crap out of them first. I don't know what would happen to them if you got them wet first but you may need to do that to heat them without burning them up. They need to get to boiling temperature for a few minutes. I suppose you could also cook them in the oven at 250 for a half-hour and give that a try.

Did anybody say what kind of bacteria it was? Something lethal...

Pidgey


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

THANKS FOR THE ADVICE. can you suggest what to clean them with or like you say just boil the crap out of them! ONCE AGAIN, I SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST SIGHT FROM BEGINNERS TO THE VETERIANS TO BELONG TO!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, in survival training, it's a standard to boil water for 20 minutes to kill all bacteria. I don't know what the felts are like so I don't know what it'll do to them to boil them but that would probably work. If you're trying to keep them from deforming from a special shape, it'd be better to bake them in an oven for a half-hour at a hotter temperature like 250 to 300 degrees. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to do that for an hour to be even safer. You need to moniter the temp with a thermometer that'll go that high, though, so that you'll know that you really got there.

I'd be a little nervous about spraying them with Lysol because we don't know what they're infected with.

Pidgey


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm sorry to hear of your losses.  

Just a suggestion, given the information just posted about the felt, to be on the safe side, how about taking an old towel & cutting pieces to fit your nest bowls? 

I do hope you find a resolution to the problem soon. 

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


----------



## pigeonkid1046 (Nov 16, 2005)

Hey. I'd remove the felt all together. Losing 12 squabs is a huge hit. I'd recomend a nest bowl pad from Foy's. http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com
It surely don't have bacteria in it and is inexpensive and reuseable. You also won't have to worry about squabs with their feet sliding out from under them and having their legs growing out to the side.(Don't know if you've ever seen that happen before) What most pigeon breeders do is just have straw/hay and let the pigeons make the nest for their young in the nest area or cedar chips. Smells great and keeps bugs off of your young. BUT, every pigeon breeder does something different.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I purchased some nestbowl pads from Jedd's that were blackish-grey and very nice and clean. They fit the bowls well and the birds seemed to find them comfy - http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=59&SubCategoryID=522&ProductID=4360

Recently I ordered a different brand listed as Economy pads. They are tan, feel dusty-gritty, and stink! They are also smaller and don't fit the bowls as well. Because of the odor, I'm not comfortable asking the birds to sleep on them, so they go into the circular "older and wiser bin" (trash).


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Breeding Problem*

Did breeders receive prebreeding meds? A good 4 in1. I'd skip liners go natural. Pine needles or tabocco stems. Have you bred from these birds before? And what the temp. or how is the waether?


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Ok are the birds sitting the young very good. As the cold temps the young bird will chill very fast. If the parents semm healthy. I would look at temps in the loft. Then sickness. Now pads if flat and larger bowls The young may not be coverd aswell. Might try some nest material. But I think you may be getting chilled birds. Also do you have any rodents. As after dark they may spook the birds off the nest for a short time.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

THE PADS THAT I PURCHASED WERE FROM FOY'S. THIS WEEKEND I'M GOING TO BOIL THE PADS, I HAVE A SET OF EGGS THAT SHOULD HATCH THE BEGINING OF MARCH I HOPE FOR THE BEST. THE PARENTS ARE SITTING WELL AND THEY ARE THE PICTURE OF HEALTH. IF ANYONE HAS ANY MORE INFORMATION IT WILL BE A GREAT HELP


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I use the nesting pads from Foy's nad never had a problem. This is weird. Are you sure there is not a low grade salmonella infection going on? The parents can be carriers. 
Otherwise, if it comes to the pads--I'd bleach them. They would turn color but who cares. Bleach kills just about every germ out there. But if you are really convinced it's the pads--I think the best advice is to toss them and start over. I know it's money down the frain but so is losing the squabs.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What has the temps. been lately In your area. And what breed of pigeons do you have. To loose them all I still some how think of chilling first. Then sickness. Is your loft open or closed for the winter. I little info on this could help come up with a solution more.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

i have my breeding pairs in my garage. it is warm in there so warm that the water never freezes. all the pairs have their own breeding boxes, they never come in contact with any of the other pairs. i only let one pair in my loft breed, the loft is in the yard and the same thing happen to that pair too. the loft and breeding pens are cleaned every day with out fail. i honestly think it's the pads, because these pads did come from belgium so they say from the supplier. i hope the boiling of the pads will do the trick we will find out in a week or so. keep the suggestions coming,because if it's not the pads i'm in a world of hurt trying to figure out what is causing this.


----------



## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

brotherstwoloft

I have another Racing friend that has used nest bowl pads for along time with no trouble, but last yr. he made his own out of underlay Carpet Padding that he bought from a carpet store. He lost his entire 1st round 19 youngsters like you in the 1st 5 days they were hatched in individual breeding pens!!! He found out from carpet manufacture that they put a poison/fungiside etc. in the padding for under carpet. When the young hatched the parents cover it so tight that the fumes killed them. Many of these paddings/felts look just like carpet padding, but are not treated so people think it is the same thing. A company, even Foy's etc. could make this mistake trying to cut cost of importing them from Belgium. Wished I would have put a post on here last yr. when I found out about it. I still use Walmarts cheepist "uncented" Kitty Litter (in Red Bag) in my nest bowls for over 20yrs. with no problems.... Some don't understand why we don't use pine needles etc., but its because we have Expanded Metal, or wire floors & they cause problems hanging up in the holes etc.. I still like the regular Cardboard throw away nest bowls the best at 25cents apiece through Jedd's etc. & I have tried every kind of nest bowl...... Hope this helps. Happy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brotherstwoloft,

As several folks have mentioned, the felt pads themselves could be the issue.
I remembered reading a post from moderator Birdmom4Ever on the topic and searched it so that you could take a look at it. She's saying that it is not just an issue of bacteria, but one of chemicals used in the manufacturing:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=29838&postcount=11

Hope this helps,

fp


----------



## Bob Rapp (Feb 25, 2006)

*Nest pads*

I used them for the first time this year and lost 60% of the first round at 2 to 3 days old took them out and have not lost a young one since including the second round. I believe they must of had some kind of chemical in them. So in the garbage they went.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Brotherstwoloft...*

IMO...from what I've read in this thread...get *RID* of those felts, bleaching, microwaving, etc. nothwithstanding!!!

Please keep us updated...


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

IMO>>>>>>>>>I would be contacting Foys and informing them of what has happened. If you bought them and they are "contaminated" I'm sure Foys would want to know. That's bad business. They may even want to do some kind of test on the pads. I'm sure they don't want to be selling a pad that is going to kill babies. But if someone doesn't tell them how will they know?


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody,you've have all been a great help. i'm going to try an experiment, i'm going to boil onr pad and put it in with a set of eggs,a regular pad under another set of eggs and finally one bowl without any pads. these pads will be put in with the breeders that already lost young. this will take time, but may-be the out come will deffinetly tell us something?


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Garge*

Your birds arein the garge. Is the car in the garge too? Gases from the cars could cause the babies breathing problems.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

no like 99.9% who puts their car in the garage? all kidding aside my breeders have been there for years.


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Hey*

What do you know my car is outside too! Well I hope the babies stop dieing. and the birds become more productive for you. I don't remeber if you said that you premeded your birds before they breed or not. You know like Shots, worming and a good 4 in 1 for Cocci. ,Parathyriod, Respirtory, E Coli. Etc...


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, took all the pads out and replaced it with straw. i haven't bought a pot yet so i'll have to wait a day or two before i boil the pads. i'm just wondering that the fumes or mist from boiling will be harmful in the house i'll probably try to bring the pot to a boil on the bbq in the yard if it's not to windy. i'm going to continue with this because i feel it's important to find out if it is the pads or not. like i said it's never happened to me before, and i don't want to blame the product if it's not the products fault once i have some valid evidence then i will contact foy's supply.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

*I wouldn't use them!!*

I had a nasty experience with nest felts several years ago. Like you, we lost a dozen babies! Then I mentioned it to an old-timer and he told me there had been problems with nest felts and not to use them. I tried washing them in the machine with detergent and bleach and rinsing them twice, thoroughly drying them. The babies _still_ died. So I ditched them along with the basket-type nests I'd bought to go with them. Some brands may be okay, but after that experience I wasn't about to risk it. 

Did your babies hatch looking normal and decline within days? That's what happened to ours. We use pine needles now and sometimes I buy tobacco stems from the pigeon supply to use when it's been raining a lot and I can't gather pine needles because they're wet. Disposable paper nests are good because the chicks can get a grip even if the parents don't use a lot of nesting material. In a pinch, even clean shredded paper can be used, though I think pine needles are the best.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Just my opinion*: I would hate to see more babies die to prove a point!

If you are NOT using the pads and no babies die, well, I would THINK that would say something.

If you want to wait to see if no more babies die without using the pads before contacting Foy's, fine, but I sure would - oh so NOT- use those pads -CLEANED to the gills or not!

Not only am I basing my opinion on what you have posted but also what others have posted - oh, yes, COMMON SENSE too... 

But, PLEASE DO KEEP US UPDATED!


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hey guys, how's everybody doing. i'm just curious if the boiling would cure the problem? at least we can inform the suppliers to put a letter in with the pads to boil first before using. i know it sounds cruel to put a squab through that but i lost a dozen already and i'll only do it with on egg. better to loose one more than another fancier endure a great loss like i did.


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

It would be a good idea to contact the supplier and let them know what happened. I didn't do this and I should have. Now that I'm hearing of more problems with the pads I think the seller should be made aware of it. 

I had to wonder if the problem was chemical, something in the composition of the pads, because I still had problems after I cleaned them. If hot water and bleach didn't fix it I don't think boiling them would, either. Although I didn't notice any problems with the adult pigeons.


----------



## brisbanepigeon (Feb 27, 2006)

Intersting about the microwave -sounds right, but I'd never thought of it. It kills my food, I know that. ALSO a PRESSURE COOKER is a great AUTOCLAVE. steam @15lbs of pressure for 15 minutes will kill anything (barring mad cow, but that's because it was never alive, so you can't kill it). Anyway, sounds like getting rid of the felt might be the easiest, but if you are going to try heat a good pressure cooker, makes a nice addition to home sterilization. Sad news about the losses -sorry


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> It would be a good idea to contact the supplier and let them know what happened. I didn't do this and I should have. Now that I'm hearing of more problems with the pads I think the seller should be made aware of it.
> 
> I had to wonder if the problem was chemical, something in the composition of the pads, because I still had problems after I cleaned them. If hot water and bleach didn't fix it I don't think boiling them would, either. Although I didn't notice any problems with the adult pigeons.


Hi Birdmom4ever,

In the link I included below to an earlier thread where you were discussing it,
you mentioned what an old-timer had said--

*
In the meantime, a long-time pigeon guy told me to get rid of the nestpads because he'd heard of other breeders having high chick mortality because of them. He said they are sometimes made with formaldehyde and kill the chicks through contact with their navel.*

Doesn't seem like any of your efforts at the time fixed it either. I really don't know if steaming, boiling, bleaching (might be worse although I'm no chemist) would help w/this, but it does seem a shame to sacrifice any more eggs/babies to these pads.

fp


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks, FP. I knew we'd discussed this before, but I'd actually forgotten what he said about formaldehyde. I'm glad _someone_ is paying attention.  I remember I tried to clean the pads because I'd bought a bunch of those basket weave type plastic nests that can only be used with nest pads and I hated to toss them. I'm never using nest pads again.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, let me know what i should do. i can call the supplier and tell him what happen and he might do something about it, but i really don't have any proof or continue what i said i was going to do and that would be all the proof i think he would need. thanks i'm confused.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

What you could do is call the supplier and tell him that you had problems with your squabs dying and the only change was the pads. While you can't be absolutely positive the pads were at fault, there is a strong possibility.

Ask them to be on the alert for anyone else calling about pad probelms. Also ask if there is any way those pads could be checked for the problems that the members have mentioned. 

Hope this helps...


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, just want to let every body know that my first egg hatched since i took out all the felt bowl liners. lets see what happens. since everybody has been so helpful i was wondering if you would like to help name the new arrival? i think the first 10 names will do and then we can vote on them but i don't know how to set that up maybe someone can help. everybody had a part in trying to help so i want everybodt to have a part in naming the youngster. just one thing we need a name suitable for both sexes because we don't know what sex it will be thanks again.


----------



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Nesting*

What did you end up using for thier nesting? Congratzz on the hatching.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi nesting went back to basics straw. sometimes you just can't beat the simple things in life. are you going to show any of your birds


----------



## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Formaldehyde in pigeon nest pads*

I remember reading years ago in Consumer Reports about formaldehyde outgassing or offgassing from home products such as textiles, carpet, etc. Some people were highly sensitiive to it. Rather than doing too much typing, I have provided web-links below from Google result on "formaldehyde test".

If you cut down a tree (most types of trees) you will see it decay over a short period of time. Termites and other insects and mold don't readily attack finished wood and textile products in houses, furniture, carpet, wallpaper, plywood and the like because of chemicals used in the manufacturing process. As with any human endeavor ("The best-laid plans of mice and men" - Robert Burns) mistakes, mishaps, glitches occur, and a defective batch or production run makes it to the end user or consumer. Formaldehyde is a basic ingredient in many manufacturing processes. Manufacturing standards of permitted levels of outgassing may be tolerable for most humans and even for pregnant women, but not necessarily tolerable for birds. Coal miners used caged canaries to detect poisonous gases: if the bird fell over dead, get out! 

If I had baby pigeons dying from unknown causes I would do as others here have done: get the opinions of others, try a few things out. If I tried several things out, got good results, still didn't feel certain of the cause, harbored some strong suspicions, I would pass on the basic facts of what I had done to those who could take it a step further. A former employer once insisted on legally-acceptable, undeniable, evidentiary ways of putting someone on notice, such as paper records in the form of teletypes, notarized forms, faxes. Establishing who you are, whom you are addressing, who will get copies now or who may get copies in the future, and letting them know you are keeping records, establishes your bona fides and intentions. 

If I were the salesman, retailer, wholesaler, distributor or whatever, I would want to be informed by the end user or the one next in line between me and the end user, so that I could take direct action, pass it on, or do both, whichever was appropriate. I probably not want to wait to be informed until after the end user had confirmed or proved his suspicions or hypotheses. I might not like bad news, but if responsible I should welcome being informed. It would be to my benefit. Being put on notice by something provable and undeniable (such as something in writing) might help me to defer judgement if I were not competent and to pass it on to the appropriate party. (I think CYA "cover your ass" is acceptable when coupled with maximum responsibility). 

Someone along the line would then be able to determine the correct cut-off point. A statistician or someone versed in these principles can determine what information is usable and valid. Possibly what manufacturing batches to sample, or what limitations to establish in product or process use, or what warnings, caveats to issue. 

If the reader gets this far, I apologize if I have been pedantic or too wordy. It often helps me to clarify my thoughts by writing it out. Perhaps I am the main and solitary beneficiary, but I don't think I destroy too many trees in the process, and I don't force anyone to read it. Except the poor moderators. 

Web-links below from Google result on "formaldehyde test":

http://www.create-your-healthy-home.com/air-testing.htm

http://www.air-techinternational.com/formaldehyde.html

http://www.environmentalsensors.com...com/NDIRUpdate/es/z_models/z_formaldehyde.htm

http://www.photovac.com/LP/Photovac...e=google_ppb&gclid=CIGR6KyTy4MCFQaEQgodqEb_9g


----------



## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Baby Names for Brotherstwoloft*

Since you asked for it, I suppose I can say you aked for it.

How about: 

Feltfree, or Felt-Free. Feltfree Fred. Feltfree Frank/Frannie). Finally Feltfree Frannie. Feltfree Fluffy. 

(This is getting to be fun). (Brain-dead activity).

Feeling-no-felt. Felt-No-Felt. 

Feltless. Nofelt. Feathery Feltless. 

That Feathery, Felt-less Feeling (Tee-three-eff, T3F).

Heartfelt. 

Padless Paddy. Padless Patty. Pretty Padless. 

No-Pad. Maybe later changes to "The No-Pad Dad."

Padless Pete. Paddy-No-Felt. 

Feltaway. Felt-Away. 

Feltless Flyer. 
Faultless Feltless Flyer (3F). 
Feathered Faultless Feltless Flyer (4F).

How about with a Latin prefix thrown in. Sine ("see-neh"), without. 
Sinefelt. Sinepad. Sinefelt Fred. Sinepad Pat. 

Well, gotta go. It's late and my straitjacket is washed and ready for me.


----------



## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

*Paratyphoid*

Sounds like that many birds dieing , you have paratyphoid, the parents do not have to look sick but thats a cause of newborns deaths and dieing in the shell. Maybe you should split up your pairs, vaccinate, treat for Canker, then put them back together.


----------



## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Brotherstwo Loft, How about naming the 1st two Bad Boy & Bad Girl???? I know you will have better luck without the nest pads, but still don't like the Straw as much as many other materials, but it depends on the Straw. Ya could always put some Regular uncented Cat litter under the straw to keep it dry etc....... Still like the throw-away cardboard nest bowls the best for the birds. I'm having a good hatch right now using cat litter only & throw-away cardboards nest bowls......
Good luck & keep us posted.. Happy


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Pine needles are my favorite nest material and I believe my pigeons' favorite too, but they aren't always available.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I think Larry said it all with those names!  They are a riot! What breed are the parents? What are their names?

I have also heard that using tobacco stems is good. Would hesitate to use kitty litter if the birds have access to eating it! My Vet said it wasn't a good idea for Squeaks to be trying some!


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, well it's been two day and just checked on the new arrivals. they look very healthy and gained alot of weight.so far babies two felt liners a big nothing.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Brothers2,

Does that mean your babies are fine WITHOUT the liners? If so, I'd lose the liners.

Terry


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everyboby, i banded '' felt'' today he's doing just fine. have a few more sets of eggs hatching soon let's keep our fingers crossed.


----------



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi everybody, just want to update everybody, have 5 new arrivals and everybody is doing well. the felts hit the round file. once again thanks.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great news! Thanks for the update and for tossing the toxic felts!

Terry


----------



## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Great news.

I hope that you contacted the supplier and let them know of your losses. Hopefully, if other breeders have done the same, they will not buy their felts from this source again.


----------

