# A dangerous precedent is being set



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I think the sky is falling here in the United States. 

http://pigeonauctions.com/lot.cfm?lotID=34708


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

The people that buy birds like this don't worry about the price of gas.lol
Dave


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## mtripOH (Jan 4, 2010)

Wow!! Is this for real? I am at a loss for words!


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## Black.Pied (Jun 27, 2010)

rediculous


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## Rabbit (Aug 17, 2008)

If you've got money to spend like that then you've probably got a loft manager too ! How boring would the hobby be then if you didnt do your own stuff with the birds. I think I like it the way I've got it - build my own stuff, train my own birds , choose my pairings and enjoy the hobby.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

There are NO bids on this Auction....I think the owner is just advertising,so he can sell YB`s off this pair.....Alamo


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

When it comes to high dollar birds like the ones listed people who buy them are normally investors looking to capitalize on the potential profit of the bird/s.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Never even heard of the guy. Anyone know the loft? Also no pedigrees. Who is going to bid on these.


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## High Flier (Jan 19, 2011)

He's trying to sell his bird. Let the guy do what he wants. I'm sure you are thinking about it too but you just can't come up with a record like him.


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

Whats the point on posting what people is trying to sell. I don't know why you guys criticise or judge what they are selling, people just get riled up from one anothers opinions. If you can't afford it don't buy it. But judging from the person posting this, it seems that he is in the market or something because he's always posting on such things on the forums. It's just bad to flame on some one by posting this because maybe interest buyers use the forum too and to see such critcism is being said, also it isn't gonna do the seller any good it might even turn things around and the seller himself will come on the site.


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## g-pigeon (Aug 24, 2010)

After winning the bidding you still have to pay for shipping?????


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## Remarc Lofts (Nov 13, 2007)

I fly with this guy in my club and he is the greatest guy you will ever meet.


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## FT33 (Jan 27, 2005)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Never even heard of the guy. Anyone know the loft? Also no pedigrees. Who is going to bid on these.


I know the guy he is a friend of mine and we fly in the same club together. He only lives a few miles from me and I actually just handled the hen from that pair a couple weeks ago. I bought a son from that pair in November of last year. All the results stated are true I actually think he might of missed a couple also... but don't quote me on that. I know what family of birds they are and how he acquired them. Up until this winter he didn't really sell a lot of birds mostly only to friends and he never sold a son or daughter from the pair that is for sale until this winter when he only sold a few.... one to me and I believe 3 others to friends. He also sold a few birds on ipigeon a couple of weeks ago but that is only because his son that was helping him with the birds is no longer able to help him so he was forced to cut back and sell a few. Out of the birds that were put up for sale on ipigeon I think there was one or two that were grandchildren from that pair the rest were not related to that pair. That pair just breeds very good and consistent birds and their children are also very good breeders. Honestly if I could afford spending that much on pigeons I would probably buy them. Since I saw the pair up for auction I have not talked to him about it so I don't know his reason for selling..... but my guess is if you saw the other pair that sold last week somewhere around that same price and if you had a pair of birds that were just as good if not better (which in my opinion his are better) why not try and sell them for 60 grand. I know if I was in the same position I sure heck would give it a shot and try and sell them.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> A precedent, maybe...dangerous? I think not.


Dangerous for the sport, not for any particular person's health. This is certainly a slippery slope that could prove to be fatal.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> I think the sky is falling here in the United States.
> 
> http://pigeonauctions.com/lot.cfm?lotID=34708


What am I missing here as far as being a precedent, and being dangerous ?  It must have just gone over my head.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Maybe Kal-El is implying that the trend is heading to where only rich people can afford birds for racing--like perhaps horse racing.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Rabbit said:


> If you've got money to spend like that then you've probably got a loft manager too ! *How boring would the hobby be then if you didnt do your own stuff with the birds.* I think I like it the way I've got it - build my own stuff, train my own birds , choose my pairings and enjoy the hobby.


 Are you saying if you owned some thoroughbreds and didn't shovel up their manure by yourself it wouldn't be fun ? If you owned a professional football team it wouldn't be fun unless you washed out their uniforms ?


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

I don't understand anyone can work hard to develop a winning team of birds it may take time and work but it can be done.. I think people are crying becouse some people want a return on their hard work.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

RodSD said:


> Maybe Kal-El is implying that the trend is heading to where only rich people can afford birds for racing--like perhaps horse racing.


The Pandora's Box of our sport. I think this is rather scary.


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## High Flier (Jan 19, 2011)

Kal-El said:


> Dangerous for the sport, not for any particular person's health. This is certainly a slippery slope that could prove to be fatal.


What do u mean dangerous for the sport. People buy pigeons for great amount of money. You think people should get them for $100 or free for something that good. No hard feelings, but I guess you must be those type of people that try to ge super pigeons for cheap.


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

In China this year there will be races with first place money being $1,000,000 and in other places fist place will bring $500. There are horse races with the same kind of spred I don't understand you concern. You will race what you have with other prople who have what they have. That is the sport of racing in what ever you race.


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## grundyiaroller (Jan 12, 2011)

I cannot afford it I just bought a new car wife said NO more toys LOLS


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## ccccrnr (Jun 15, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Are you saying if you owned some thoroughbreds and didn't shovel up their manure by yourself it wouldn't be fun ? If you owned a professional football team it wouldn't be fun unless you washed out their uniforms ?


My grandfather bought a few Thoroughbred mare's from outstanding lines for cheap. So I got to shovel the manure too. But they were cheap because they were thought to be "difficult to bred" and with years of selecting and traveling to great sires; he didn't have any better luck. Sold them on being from a great blood line, too..

But back to pigeons and the the chance the hobby won't stay Cheap 
If I was to buy after YB in US what is the least you'd expect me to have to pay to get a 1500YPM or better at its 300miler???


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

ccccrnr said:


> My grandfather bought a few Thoroughbred mare's from outstanding lines for cheap. So I got to shovel the manure too. But they were cheap because they were thought to be "difficult to bred" and with years of selecting and traveling to great sires; he didn't have any better luck. Sold them on being from a great blood line, too..
> 
> But back to pigeons and the the chance the hobby won't stay Cheap
> If I was to buy after YB in US what is the least you'd expect me to have to pay to get a 1500YPM or better at its 300miler???


Depends on if that bird with a speed over 1500ypm was a winner or like in my club last season 71st since we had 71 birds make speeds better then 1500ypm in the 300 mile race my 8th bird was 65th out of 266 in that race. The bird who was 65th in that race was my ITFA winner. The ITFA was another 300 mile race he made 1561ypm that week and only 2 other birds made speeds over 1500ypm.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The trend is already there. Birds are getting expensive. They are breaking price records as well.


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

g-pigeon said:


> After winning the bidding you still have to pay for shipping?????


My thought exactly.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Personally speaking I like the way the trend is going, if it is a trend. There are parts of the world where pigeons are worth more than here in the States, let them pay.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

If you are worried about a pair selling for $55K then don't look at this. http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=83159


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

lol the bird isn't for sale bnut just to show the results of the gene. Protege loft does it all the time.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

High Flier said:


> What do u mean dangerous for the sport. People buy pigeons for great amount of money. You think people should get them for $100 or free for something that good. No hard feelings, but I guess you must be those type of people that try to ge super pigeons for cheap.


Actually I'm not that kind of person. I too, have spent good money on birds with potential which didn't produce. On the flip side, my best bird was bred from two birds that were given to me as gifts. 

I think many people are misconstruding what I'm saying here. All I'm saying is that with the prices of these birds sky-rocketing, I hope people don't get turned off. The reality is that it's the market that determines the value of the bird, and someone who believes that bird to be worth that much, it's on him/her to do so.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

If you only look at pedigrees sooner or later your going to get burned, instead look at "Diplomas" for a real look see at what the birds ancestry is really doing! Blood is one thing but performance is another, also you must give weight to many things like distance flown, amount of birds in a given race, among a few things to consider, pedigrees can be faked but results can't be IMHO!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> ............ I hope people don't get turned off. The reality is that it's the market that determines the value of the bird, and someone who believes that bird to be worth that much, it's on him/her to do so.


 OK, I missed this one. I don't know why it should turn anyone off. Like any other sport, there is a whole range of entry points. 

I do agree 100% that a free market determines the price of everything. From stocks and bonds, real estate, race horses, and yes even Racing Pigeons. Quality is generally more expensive then poor quality. I don't think any reasonable person will be shocked to know that like a lot of other things in life inside a capitalist country, rare desireable items can sell for high prices.

I mean have you seen some of the prices paid for some rare pieces of art ? I don't think that ever really discouraged art lovers from collecting art. And neither should it discourage the pigeon lover from attempting to breed and own better pigeons. In fact, I am thinking the Million $$ + prizes that await the breeder who developes the nerxt great strain, might be an incentive for many. And those who think it is a sin to make a dollar off your hobby, they can always tell the fancier standing there with $50,000 in 100 $ bills, that you won't take the money ( have them the send money to me to help feed my orphan's I have sheltered)


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

Warren I agree I think this in the long run will help the sport. I raises the value of birds and will get different people into the sport. I sure in will raise the bar on what will bw classed as a good bird and what is just a back yard flyer. It a lot like auto racing it got so costly that others started other races welcome to progress.


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## ccccrnr (Jun 15, 2010)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Depends on if that bird with a speed over 1500ypm was a winner or like in my club last season 71st since we had 71 birds make speeds better then 1500ypm in the 300 mile race my 8th bird was 65th out of 266 in that race. The bird who was 65th in that race was my ITFA winner. The ITFA was another 300 mile race he made 1561ypm that week and only 2 other birds made speeds over 1500ypm.


WOW, your in a tough club/combine

I've checked the race sheets and as far as I know there has Never been a YB to break 1500 in the 300 in my whole combine,
that is amazing you have 71 such birds in just your club.

Kannibaal the guy i got birds from uses off spring from them - the market of breeders


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

It has a lot to do with the race course and the directions being flown as well. Don't be fooled into thinking that 1500 ypm is an amazing feat before you look at the race course. In my old combine it was done 4 times out of 22 races during the 5 years which I was a member and raced there. It was probably a little harder for us, as we flew out to 400 miles with the YBS and those results are counted in what I just reported.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I have to say that I think the money aspect would draw more people in just because its another way to bring the heat with the potential to fill ones pocket at the same time or at least win enough to have a hobby that could potencially pay for itself .


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's hope it all turns out for the better. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, even though there are different viewpoints.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't understand why anyone would think of this auction as dangerous. It appears to be grandstanding. The person has a $60K buy-it-now price on a pair of birds that are at least eight years old. Not surprised that there are no bids.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Happens on Ebay a lot. People wanting to draw attention to their "wares", often put something up for sale at a ridiculous price. If some rich guy pulls the trigger and buys the item, then the seller laughs all the way to the bank.

If, on the other hand, that no one buys the item (birds). The seller can draw attention to himself and his lesser priced birds and perhaps sell some of them BECAUSE the very high priced ad drew attention to those lesser birds and someone thinking they got a great deal on a grandchild of a 55 thousand dollar pair of birds.

Nothing wrong with it. Smart marketing I think.

I could put up a pair of birds that were given to me for free, and ask for ten thousand dollars and make them sound like dynamite!

It is just marketing, and perhaps just a little bit of "hope" of a lucky day, mixed in with a little ego smile.

More power to the seller. But I won't be bidding and apparently no one else is.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Depends on if that bird with a speed over 1500ypm was a winner or like in my club last season 71st since we had 71 birds make speeds better then 1500ypm in the 300 mile race my 8th bird was 65th out of 266 in that race. The bird who was 65th in that race was my ITFA winner. The ITFA was another 300 mile race he made 1561ypm that week and only 2 other birds made speeds over 1500ypm.


Our last 300 had 208 birds beat the 1500 ypm mark with the winner at 1896 ypm. I agree 1500 ypm should not be your precedent. Still, personally I do not think their is a pigeon alive worth 50k. Their may be a few valued at such, but being a luxury item, it truly has a skewed value. I am not thinking this pair for 60k has the potential for being a good investment. Whether a nice guy or not, he is not Mike Ganus. Who has the reputation for getting a bunch for the birds. They may be a great pair, but I would hate to try and get $1000 for the babies. Sixty would break even. If you buy a National Winner or World Champ, you could expect to maybe get your investment back. I would really need to see the results of every offspring to judge the worth of the pair. Watching the recent auctions lately, you saw Thone birds that have won National races bringing less than 60k. Hard to see how they would be worth the asking price.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Don't understand why the pedigrees are not shown. Wondering if 55k is the real asking price. She sold his other two birds for 200 and 300. Would like to have the lineage if I was expected to dish out that much.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> Happens on Ebay a lot. People wanting to draw attention to their "wares", often put something up for sale at a ridiculous price. If some rich guy pulls the trigger and buys the item, then the seller laughs all the way to the bank.
> 
> If, on the other hand, that no one buys the item (birds). The seller can draw attention to himself and his lesser priced birds and perhaps sell some of them BECAUSE the very high priced ad drew attention to those lesser birds and someone thinking they got a great deal on a grandchild of a 55 thousand dollar pair of birds.
> 
> ...


Maybe I will put my race winner up for auction at say 5k. She is down from four National Ace birds, SFL birds and Clausing Houbens. If someone bought her I would feel guilty for charging that much. She is a damn good bird, but. Warren's Duke of Earl has sired many Futurity Winners. Warren is 25k what that bird is worth? Maybe I am missing something here. And I thought the Sure Bet maniacs are nuts. Not to discount the value of the birds, just the value of the asking price.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamily, would you feel guilty if you saw the numbers in your bank account jump $5K?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> hillfamily, would you feel guilty if you saw the numbers in your bank account jump $5K?


Probably, Both her parents were gifts. Her sire was a gift from my mentor. The dam was bred from some loaner birds from "Ace in the Hole". Many are in this game to take advantage. The birds have a fair worth. What someone is willing to spend is not always the true worth if the seller knows the price was not fair. I would say two of her grandparents were bought from GFL for 2k each. The others probably a few hundred each. Could not see feeling good selling her for 5k.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Maybe I will put my race winner up for auction at say 5k. She is down from four National Ace birds, SFL birds and Clausing Houbens. If someone bought her I would feel guilty for charging that much. She is a damn good bird, but. *Warren's Duke of Earl has sired many Futurity Winners. Warren is 25k what that bird is worth?* Maybe I am missing something here. And I thought the Sure Bet maniacs are nuts. Not to discount the value of the birds, just the value of the asking price.


 I guess I would have to seriously think about it. If they were standing there in front of me with 250 $100 bills, I just might crack and let him go. As I think it might be possible to replace him for something less then $25,000. 

Your previous post where you state " Still, personally I do not think their is a pigeon alive worth 50k. "

The problem with such a statement, is it is so very relative. And depends on how much you value those stacks of paper we use as currency, as it really depends on how much of that currency you happen to own. $50,000 to you or me, might represent a years worth of labor. For some folks that might be a week's or day's pay, or may be a very tiny fraction of one's net worth. I mean how many of our readers would think $50,000 would be a bargain price for a painting ? Well, of course it depends on the painting. I am sure we would have quite a few readers who would never consider paying such a sum for any kind of painting. Of course, 50k is really nothing when it comes to some world class art collections. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_paintings

I am thinking there are some pigeons, which in hindsite, have been worth more then $50k and some of those are right here in the states, as their owners have earned more then $50k from winnings and bird sales as a result of owning them. Of course if someone came to me, and had $50k to invest in order to acquire some foundation birds, I would not suggest that they invest it all into a single bird, I would have them spread that over several pairs, but hey, that is me.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My thoughts are that 50k worth of pigeons could put you right up with the best in the world as far as stock. And you would probably have plenty of birds to select from. The most expensive are not always the best. But hey, I am the guy who builds his own speakers, fly rods, golf clubs, fishing flies etc. I try to be just as sly and thrifty when it comes to pigeons. I always search for better birds for less money then the next guy. One of these days I will write a book how hard work and education can save a dime.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> My thoughts are that 50k worth of pigeons could put you right up with the best in the world as far as stock. And you would probably have plenty of birds to select from. The most expensive are not always the best. But hey, I am the guy who builds his own speakers, fly rods, golf clubs, fishing flies etc. I try to be just as sly and thrifty when it comes to pigeons. *I always search for better birds for less money then the next guy.* One of these days I will write a book how hard work and education can save a dime.


That will take longer so it is better if you have lots of money so that you will acquire the better birds faster. And better birds will cost more than not so good birds unless the breeder had no clue.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

A few years ago I sold a few birds to a guy that was "just getting into the sport" for $25 each. One hen bred a money winner in the GHC two years in a row, and one cock ended up with a Miami flyer who called me to tell me three years later that it was his best breeder! The Miami man told me the list of pigeons he had from expensive lines, although I have no idea what he paid for the bird I bred. My point is the birds are out there without having to spend thousands. Before anyone asks, I don't sell pigeons for $25 anymore.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

RodSD said:


> That will take longer so it is better if you have lots of money so that you will acquire the better birds faster. And better birds will cost more than not so good birds unless the breeder had no clue.


RodSD
Most of the birds I have are from 1k birds. I just acquire them by barter, friendships, Burrowing. There are ways to acquire good birds without spending thousands.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> RodSD
> Most of the birds I have are from 1k birds. I just acquire them by barter, friendships, Burrowing. There are ways to acquire good birds without spending thousands.


It is nice to have friends!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One way to acquire some good birds is through the world of wings breeding program. For $250 you get 25 bands and a good bird. Some birds of mine have been bred off of WOW birds. My Bob Kinney blood came from a WOW bird. I had two daughters and a son off the bird coined "08". These three bred multiple first place birds including my Futurity winner, a club bond winner, 3rd in our club futurity, and are grad parents to many a good bird. The cock was off the "08" and a 969 Janssen bird from the WOW. 
Another way would be to buy birds when the one loft races auction off the top 50 or so birds. The other founding father to my foundation was a Vic Miller bird bought from the Vegas Race at auction. My mentor spent a bit for him $1500. I have seen some good birds go for a few hundred dollars at these auction. Ganus, Pipa, CBS etc, have all made us think that the ability of the bird is somehow tied to its price and its pedigree. There are five guys in my club that have birds that compare to those mentioned. A couple of hundreds and a six pack could get you some very good birds. I am sure other clubs look the same.


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