# Splayed legs, slow growth, help!



## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

The whole 'red legs' problem cleared up, and I've managed to warm up the room so little baby doesn't get cold. But now his legs are going splayed! He is kept on paper towel, so hw should be able to get a grip, but instead he scrabbles about until his legs are out to the sides, then gives up. What method is prefered for fixing this in baby pigeons? (please don't tell me to take him to an avian vet, there aren't any, and I don't trust our vet with birds)

Also, I've just looked at the development pictures and found that he is way, wayyyy behind. Am I not feeding him enough? He seems bright and lively. I can see his ribs through his skin though, and I'm not sure if that is because his skin is so transparent and his fluff virtually not there, or because he isn't getting enough food. 

Here is a pic of the legs (pre-feeding) : 

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/40065438/


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You really need to get that little one into a container such as a margarine tub and line it with terry cloth, rubberized shelf liner, or T-shirt or sweatshirt fabric. Try to get the lining such that when the baby is put in the container, the legs will be in the proper position under the bird and not able to splay out to the sides. Splayed legs can be fairly easily corrected when the bird is as small as yours, but you really can't delay in addressing this situation. It may also be necessary to actually tape the legs, but I'd try the nest container first.

How much are you feeding each time and how often? It's possible that the baby isn't getting enough food but also possible that the baby is lagging behind due to paratyphoid or another disease or parasite problem.

Terry


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

I've put him into a new nest, which is much smaller and useing a coarser material. 

I feed him about three times a day: I would feed him more often, but that is how quickly his crop seems to empty. In the photograph linked below he has just been fed, I feed him until he is that full. BUT today I looked him over more carefully and half of that seems to be air. What can I do to keep him from gulping air along with food?

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/40115043/


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon, 


He looks decently 'full' to me...


Now, exactly what are you -what have you been - feeding him?


And how are you feeding him?


I would conside to have his drinking Water and formula mixing Water be the ACV-Water, made by mixing Three Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of good aulity Water...

He may have a mild Yeast or Candida problem...and if so, this should straighten him out...

Also, you need for him to be...he needs to be, arouns 100 degrees Farenheit, and with no air moving over him...

It is not nearly enough to make the 'room' warm...


Possibly, this Baby has been chronically chilled...not enough to kill him, but enough to slow him and his digestive system, way down...

Let us know?

Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon, 


Review this thread, on-going as we speak..in the same column as yours...

Lots of good info there on infant Pigeon care...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=17431&page=3


Any question, let us know?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

I've been feeding him Kaytee Exact, from a plastic bag, which I use a bit like a syringe. It is desperately messy, but it's less of a fight. 

The room I keep him in is very, VERY warm, has the dehumidifyer on to ward off the damp, and it utterly breeze-less. I also put a pet-safe heating....thing.....under the dish he lives in, and after he is fed and washed he gets the desk lamp on him too (with a tissue between him and it)
That all said, he was badly chilled before I brought him inside. 

"I would conside to have his drinking Water and formula mixing Water be the ACV-Water, made by mixing Three Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of good aulity Water..."

Could I use white household vinegar? I have that stuff by the gallon. If it needs to be the apple-stuff I will get that, but using what I have already would be easier.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Apple Cider Vinegar*

It really would be best to get the Braggs, (or another one like Wild Oats) as it is organic and has the "mother" in it. It is uncompromised and potency guaranteed.

You can even order it by phone, or pick up at your local health food store.

http://www.bragg.com/products/applecidervinegar.html


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I believe you need to go ahead and tape that babies legs now. The dish you have it in is not going to work. In my dealings with splayed legs, it's best to go ahead and tape the legs and MAKE SURE that it's corrected. I wouldn't wait another day. At his age, in about 8 to 10 days, his legs will be fine. I believe they are to "splayed" for them to correct on thier own now. The sooner you do this, the better.


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

Would White House apple cider vinegar do? I found some in the kitchen. Evidently it is "...made from apple juice, which has been converted to acetic acid and reduced to 5% acidity..." Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? 

Regarding specialty brands of vinegar, pdpbison's mind-boggeling baby-pigeon-food recipe, and anything else which needs to be bought from a health food store. My chances of finding any of these items are slim to none. I would have to have them flown in, which, given my luck, could take weeks.

Lovebirds, how do I go about taping them? I don't want to hurt him. His right leg seems to be much better, but his left leg is vastly worse and twisted out. It seems to affect his knee and hip as well, I'm beginning to wonder if something might not have been broken.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Did you check the link and read about the ACV. If you cannot find it then you cn use a substitute, it may have some potency.

The normal position of a youngsters legs, are neatly folded under him so that you don't see them. You can kind of get an idea from this picture how the one leg is, and the other would be about the same. They should be tucked under them a little more then the picture, I can't find one.
http://www.speedpigeon.com/18-Day_Old_baby_racing_pigeon.jpg

You would tape the legs together in the position as shown, if you can't find a small enough cereal l bowl that would not be too tight, but would confine the legs to stay in the normal position. If the baby is moving around then the taping should be done asap.

If too much time goes by it will not be easily corrected. If the birds legs canot be gently folded in the normal position, then there is either a broken legs or leg, or infection, or a disease going on.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

There is a picture somewhere out in this WIDE WIDE World web, but I'll be darned if I can find it!!! 
Anyway, I did find the picture below, of a chicken and it's the same principle. You can use some cloth tape on the baby pigeon. I'm still looking for that pic. Now that I can' find it, I'm determined TO FIND it. LOL



http://www.poultryhelp.com/spraddle.html


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's another good link, still not the one I'm looking for and have seen, but this is a good one. 



http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/splayleg.html


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I FOUND it!!! Turns out it was pictures that cyro51, a member here had posted. This was buggin me. I sure hope you can get that babies legs fixed. I believe it's still young enough. Good luck.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I stopped in and see you on line. Were you able to tape the babies legs?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon, 


How old is this Baby ?

And what happenned with his parents?

Would you remind me please?

Is there a sibling ( ie,was there another Baby? Since Pigeons usually have two...) someplace?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

Lovebirds, sorry I missed you. I haven't done it yet, I need to get the tape.

pdpbison, I don't know precisely how old he is. My best guess is between 14 and 16 days.

There is a sibling who is doing just fine. Bing is much larger, growing like a weed, and looks like he will be the spitting image of his mother, Socks. Socks was part of a pair, both female, but her partner is very elderly and gave up on the babies during the stress of the hurricane. Currently Socks is raising Bing alone. 

I do occasionally take Little Baby out to visit with the others, hoping I can pursuade Socks to feed him. No luck on it yet, but Socks isn't the smartest bird in the world, so I might be able to get her to do it eventually.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi redgryphon,

The time frame to correct the legs is slipping away, if it is splay legs and it will be harder to correct the legs once the baby is grown.

If you have not found a suitable bowl to sit the bird in, that is snug around the legs, and causes it to keep the legs correctly under him, then you need to tape the legs immediately.

If the legs do not want to bend at the knees and correctly fold under the baby, then that could be a clue that something else is going on, and that needs to be determined. Socks may also be giving you a clue, if she senses there is something wrong with the baby sometimes the parents will ignore it and not feed it. The fact that the baby is not growing as the other sibling could be a sign that the baby may have a disabling problem or disease.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

redgryphon said:


> Lovebirds, sorry I missed you. I haven't done it yet, I need to get the tape..


Hi Redgryphon,

Check out this post from Cynthia...it contain a link to a photo album showing and explaining how she corrected her bird's splayed legs using self adhesive bandage. It looks like this bandaging is something that can be easily found in any drug store...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=75755&postcount=2

Linda


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon, 


I really think you would do well to make sure this Baby is in fact "warm" where his body temp is for sure 103ish or so...and while you say your house or room are warm, I do not think they are likely to be warm enough continuously...

As well as keeping him out of any moving air or drafts.

Too, to make sure you are feeding him properly in every way, meaning, the food temperature, how you warm the formula, what is IN the formula, the Baby's adequate hydration, and how he is eating and pooping...

While I had wished to interest you in the several mentions of that other thread, you seem only to have come away from it dismissed the whole of it, while lamenting abstractly, and to no one appearently, that to you making formula deferentially for the Baby, seemed 'mind boggleing', while you had nothing to say to suggest that it, or anything else, had in any way been comprehended or read or considered, aside from being dismissed.

Will you try again?


So, I guess for now, that is about all I can think of here to add...

Unless this Baby has Paratyphoid, which is effecting his metabolism and growth, or regardless, there are things he needs to stay alive and to grow or to be happy...and adequate warmth in HIS terms, not yours is one of them.

...adequate nutrition and agreeable feeding methods in his terms, and not arbitrarily yours...adequate hydration and interaction and stimulations which are meaningful in his terms, whether they are meaningful in yours, are important for him.

There was a lot more information in the current thread I suggested you read up on...a lot more information there than "just" what you felt was some mind-boggleing suggestions on formula.

How have you been warming his formula?

Will you say?


Wishing you both my best...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

I am sorry if I seemed dismissive of either your advice or of the baby's care. I truly am devoting a great deal of time and effort to raising him. I have zero tolerance for creatures dying on me. 

1. Please trust me that he is warm enough. In addition to the ambient temperature of the room, the heating pad-thing he is on warms to 123° and stays that way for hours. It is re-heated each time he is fed and again before bed, simply because I like to.

2. I did in fact read the thread you suggested thoroughly. Unfortunately, save for the Nutrical, I don't belive it is possible for me to get any of the ingredients mentioned. Literally not possible. I did not wish to dwell on the fact that I cannot feed the baby any better than Kaytee Exact, so I made what was to me a light-hearted comment about the recipe, and moved on. 

3. As for how I am preparing his food: Every time I feed him I mix up a fresh batch, using boiling water from the kettle mixed with cool water until it reaches the right temp. Once it is mixed I pour it into a bag which I set in a shallow basin of warm water (soon to be his bath water) to keep it from cooling too quickly. I feed it to him when he and it feel the same temperature, and I usually must wait for it to cool before I give it to him. 

While we wait, he is set on my desk to wriggle around and be played with and generally fussed over. After his meal is his bath (with a damp paper-towel, not a dunking.) Next he is wrapped up in a tissue and set on the heating pad to dry and calm down; during this time I remake his bed. Out of the tissue, into bed, tissue set over top and cage reassembled around him. He lives in a tupperware dish inside a shallow small-animal-cage, the cage being a last line of defense should any of the cats or dogs manage to get into the room. 

On a seperate note, regarding his legs. His left leg seems to be much better, he tucks it in nicely when he is sleeping. His right leg is another matter. Instead of creating a nice 'Z' pattern from hip to knee to ankle to foot, his knee points down and touches the ground, and his ankle bends sideways, rather than folding neatly back on itself. My mother has also pointed out to me that his right wing seems much less developed than his left. I have tried two different confining nest arrangements and the sponge-with-holes method, all of which he wriggled out of, and having seen a bird with a too-tight leg band, I am very leery of tape. At this point, I think that I will simply leave him be. He has a new, even grippier surface, with luck perhaps he can sort himself out.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon, 


Sounds pretty good then...

But olease do make sure the Baby does not get chilled over-night or other in-be-tween times...

They do not make their own body heat untill they have grown or developed enough to do so, and compromised Babys sometimes take longer to do so.

It sounds to me like the one leg is actually broken...and you should invstigate it carefully to see about that. 

It may need to be splinted and stabalized in order to heal...and this of course may require some even more special accomidation for the Baby to be able to be comfortable or to be supported.


Can you not obtain Seeds there?

Finch Seed, Canary Seed?


Please consider to do so, if you can...

And also to make very sure their little Crop does not slow with a resistant semi-dehydrated 'slug' of 'K-T' in it...make sure they are adequately hydrated between meals, let them drink some (body temperature) Water and then gently massage their Crop any time it is not 'mushy' soft...

How are you giving them Water between meals?

How many poops are they making in 24 hours? Can you count them to see?



Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

I have considered that his leg might be broken, but couldn't find any obvious signs of a break. Even if it is broken there is nothing I can do, save modify his home. I trust the local vets with birds about as far as I can throw them, so unless it is a life-or-limb threatening emergency.....(a broken leg which may result in permanent lameness does not reach 'emergency' status.)

Seed I can get. What sort? Most of the decent-quality seed here is brand-name, vaccum-sealed, and has pellets and scraps of...stuff...mixed in. I could get him budgie pellets (Kaytee exact original parakeet) if that would be better: seed sized and no hulls to digest. His brother is often given egg-food by their mother, should I try that? And what ratio to formula? 

I haven't been giving him water between meals; what I have been doing is makeing every third meal or so very soupy. It seems to be working, he isn't dehydrated so far as I can tell. He tends to swallow a lot of air, which limits the amount of food I can give him, so if anything is going to go down his throat, I would rather it had some nutritional content. Do you think I could give him 'soup' between thicker meals? Would that violate the no-food-until-crop-is-nearly-empty rule? 

As for poo, well....a lot! I haven't been counting, but he definately isn't blocked up, and doesn't have diarrhea or anything.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon, 


Well, look at that Leg reall carefully...if it 'bends' sideways, it is likely broken, and will need to be splinted. Swelling can be sublte sometimes too, so compare the Legs carefully for signs of swelling anywhere on the effected Leg.

Can you post some images, close ups?


Glad to hear there are lots of poops..!

Seeds, small, whole, wholesome, Seeds...would be a good idea I think.

If it were me, I'd be mixing about 1/3 or more small whole Seeds, in with his otherwise definitely 'soupy' formula.

If you can get just plain Canary Seed, or Finch Seed, these would be excellent.

The roughage or hulls and so on, are good for them...and it gives their little Gizzard something to do, which promotes a viscerotonoic well being and stimulation and general benificial involvement of their whole digestive system.

In Nature, by the time they are his approximate developemental age, his parents would be feeding him whatever Seeds they themselves found to graze on, in lots of Water, and with whatever occasional greens or vegitation they hed elected also...along with whatever Pigeon Milk they might still be produceing for him.

So, I'd say, go-for-the-gusto there with that, and see if you can find some nice wholesome small whole Bird Seeds to be adding.

If you can get fresh Cilantro, or Parsely or Kale, mince some of that up fine, to add to his formula...

Add a little bit of Olive Oil too but make sure it is from a new Bottle and refrigerate it between uses.

Anyway, check that Leg...if it is bending 'out' or sideways at or near the Joint, it is not right, and may be broken or dislocated or something...if it dangles loosely when you lift him, it is likely broken.

What about the Wing on that side? Any more details you could supply on that?

Images of course, are great, so...if you can, post some more...!


Is he nuzzleing assertively for feed-time?

Is he 'peeping'?



Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

Here is a picture of the leg:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/40332734/

I'm beginning to get more concerned. He uses the leg, everything from the knee down, and the toes close and hold, though more clumsily than his other foot. But today that foot was cold. Not icy, but definately colder than the rest of him, ans his other foot. I spent a while exercising it with him, and held it in his bath water for a while. 

And now his beak is growing out of alignment. *Sigh.* I suspect that he will be a house-pet when he grows up.

But apart from that, he is a cheerful little thing. He weeezes his head off when I don't feed him fast enough, and fights with his bed (it won't feed him.)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi redgryphon,


Would you please post some additional images, closer up...showing the Leg and the Wing...and also, what you are refering to as the Beak mis-alignment?

Do you understand, that if the leg is broken there, above his Heel ( which is the first joint up from his wrist, where his Toes are), that depending on if it is a cracked bone or a bone that was broken in half, it will be swollen there compared to the other Leg, and also, will render the foot useless for the time being...

I would not be excerciseing this Leg untill you are certain it is not injured...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## redgryphon (Sep 10, 2006)

Having a hard time getting clear pictures. Obviously I would not have touched the foot if I thought the problem was there, I am fairly certain it is in his knee or hip. Current theory is that his knee is dislocated. His beak is looking better, I think it was going out of alignment because he was using it to move his entire body, and always used it the same way.

New problem, started yesterday. He is panting. Not the beak-open-throat-fluttering panting of a bird who is too hot, it almost looks like panting from stress or exertion. Every breath is a quick little gasp. No discharge, no gurgling, no other symptoms. He has been flailing around a lot, trying to move, so is he just overdoing it?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi-rg,


I-dunno...

Are-you-sure-he-is-hydrated-well-enough-

Legwise,if-an-injured-knee-or-hip,and-you-move-the-foot...it-is-about-the-same-as-stressing-the-whole-leg...


Phil
LasVegas


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