# Poopzilla: Pooped Out (In Trouble) or am I Obsessing?



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hello Everyone,

I don't know if you remember us (ryannon, the guy) and Poopzilla (the pigeon) but I'm posting this because Poopzilla has been acting as if something's not quite right, health-wise.

Succinctly, he seems 'pooped out', meaning that he's lost his usual vivacity, sleeps much more than usual, and when awake, occasionally cranes his head and neck back in slow PMV-type movements (which he had as a baby a year ago and eventually surmounted). From time to time, he scratches his head with one or another of his feet - more than 'normally' it seems to me. The 'white' part of his upper beak (I've forgotten the exact term), which was always a bit grey, seems to have darkened a bit. His poops do seem normal, as does his respiration. A sneeze from time to time, but I'd say no more than usual. Other than that, it's his listlessness and 'slow motion' mode that's worrying me: he seems groggy most of the time, whereas normally, he's all over the place, following me around, poking his beak into everything and generally bouncing around like the happy little Poopzilla he is.

I've looked at the various possibilities, viral, bacterial and parasitical, and I confess that I have no idea where to start in terms of treatment. There seem to be too many possibilities corresponding to his symptoms. I should add that he's not molting and looks in fine shape, superficially speaking. The only way - but it's a distinct possibility - that he could have picked up a virus, bacterium or whatever, would be from the two ferals who spend the night on my windowsill: the window is always cracked open and Poopzilla often elects to spend part or all of the night next to it.

Needless to say, I'm very worried about this: there seems to be something going on, and I don't have any idea of what it is. As far as vets and/or rehabbers, pigeons are a pretty low-priority item here in France. 

Given his symptoms - which come and go: after watching me type this on the computer screen, he has jumped onto the bed and is presently pecking my toes - which also worries me, since he usually takes a particular delight in biting them. Ouch! Now he _is_ biting them! - is that there are so many possibilities and so many potential treatments, and perhaps nothing that's either available in France or even translatable if it does exist here.

Anyway, fire away at will and let me know what you think or even better, what I can do - even if it's to stop worrying and rejoice in the fact that he's apparently healthy enough to give my toes a a thorough working-over. 

At this point, I just don't know what to think 


.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, do you ever get him outside in real sunlight?

Pidgey


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Yes, quite often (four to six days a week) and sometimes for more than several hours - or until either he or I seems to have had enough (he has his ways of letting me know).

So he has been getting his dose of UVs - as have I - on the terrace of the corner café downstairs (where's he become a local attraction and unofficial Ambassador of Pigeondom) or in the garden in back of my building.

Because of the PMV, he can't really fly - and shouldn't even be left to try outside - and the time in the sun is spent in a small cage which fits nicely on part of a outdoor café table....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you take a pretty-high resolution picture of him and post it?

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

HI Ry/Jon!! While I am delighted to see you posting, I am very sad about the circumstances!! Poopzilla is one of my favorities and I sure hope there is nothing serious wrong with him.

I know our members will do their best to help. I see Pidgey (a.k.a. Guardian of Broken Pigeons) has already posted.

My question: would _any_ of the Vets be willing to examine a poop sample using the various techniques that are available. Pidgey would know the terms used. Unfortunately, I forget... Hopefully, you could eliminate a few things...

Please keep us updated!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hello Shi, nice to 'see' you again! 

I'm sure that the sort of analyses you're thinking of can be done here; the trick is finding who or where. But this is not impossible: there is a national veterinary school that I could call; I would presume that they could direct me to a laboratory that does this type of work. 

Unfortunately, it's often hard 'getting through' to the French - even if one is perfectly bilingual: they're just not programmed to think outside the box - and pigeons are something which are definitely outside the box for the majority of them - be they vets or no. 

But that's neither here nor there: you're absolutely right: it's time to get on the blower (tomorrow, since it's already night here) and start calling around....

Thanks for the (very good) suggestion!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Jonathan,

I just now logged on and saw your post. I would start by suspecting an upper respiratory infection. You say he is sneezing now and again and his cere has darkened. These are classic symptoms of a respiratory infection. The most common cause according to Walker's book The Flying Vet is Chlamydia. Stress can provoke an outbreak of this bug that is pretty much present in most pigeons.
I would treat for this first before going to anything more. The treatment is doxycycline for three to five days. It will also be effective against mycoplasma, the second most common cause of respiratory infections in pigeons.

Lets see what others may say.

Margaret


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Can you take a pretty-high resolution picture of him and post it?
> 
> Pidgey


I'd love to, but this would be from difficult to impossible without even so much as a low-resolution camera...

Thank you for your suggestion - I'm not being facetious here - it's just that I don't possess a camera of any sort - and at the moment I don't know where I might beg, borrow or even steal one.

Out of curiosity, what might you be looking for in such a pic? As I say, he looks _good_ (well-fed; feathers not puffed up, etc.) - but seems to lack vitality. The only possible visible marker might be the rather greyish (rather than quite white) portion of the upper beak, but that's always been more or less the hue. Whether or not it has darkened a bit is not certain: when one is worried, everything looks like a potential symptom - but as I say, it's always looked more or less as it does now.

Once again, thank you for your input - and feel free to query anything else I might be able to answer concerning him...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sometimes their beaks look something like you describe because they're hens and sometimes it's a sign of illness, for sure. I don't remember enough of Poopzilla's story to guess whether worms might be a possibility. If I were just shooting blind, I'd probably give the bird a course of medications for the majors and then make sure its nutrition program was excellent for awhile. Not living in France, I don't know how tough it'd be to acquire medications and that sort of thing.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Ry/Jon...

The part of Poopzilla's anatomy to which you are referring is called a "wattle." 

However, there is some discrepancy, since some refer to that portion as a "cere." 

I did too, UNTIL Cindy (AZWhitefeather) and I went to our State Fair and met a pigeon judge. He called that part a "wattle." Hence, my preference. Anyway, most will know what area to which you are referring. 

Sounds like you are getting some great advice!! I just hope you can get the MEDS this situation may need!!

Wishing you both Hugs and Scritches

Shi

P.S. WHAT ARE you feeding Poopzilla? Any idea of age??


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Ah, Margarret!

Thank you for your input: first thing is to find the French equivalent of doxycycline (unless that is the generic name for the molecule) and then to obtain it - which once again, should be do-able even _here._

Can you explain how it is administered, and in what sort of doses? Is it a 'human' type antibiotic? Is it an antibiotic? Is there any risk involved in using it? Am I asking too many questions? 

Thank you for your concern, Margarret - there are times (and this is certainly one of them) that I wish we didn't live seven or so thousand miles distant from each other... 






Margarret said:


> Jonathan,
> 
> I just now logged on and saw your post. I would start by suspecting an upper respiratory infection. You say he is sneezing now and again and his cere has darkened. These are classic symptoms of a respiratory infection. The most common cause according to Walker's book The Flying Vet is Chlamydia. Stress can provoke an outbreak of this bug that is pretty much present in most pigeons.
> I would treat for this first before going to anything more. The treatment is doxycycline for three to five days. It will also be effective against mycoplasma, the second most common cause of respiratory infections in pigeons.
> ...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doxycycline is one of the Tetracycline group and that isn't a trade name. I think one of the most common longstanding trade names was "Vibramycin". Anyhow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxycycline

Pidgey


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hi again - the Poopzilla story is quite simple: I found him at the end of last June (a year ago) huddled next to a building like the little lost fledgeling that he was. Hand-fed him for several weeks and saw the onset of the PMV symptoms. It took him several months to shake them off. He developed normally and once the PMV had ceased, he never really displayed any symptoms of anything up until a few days ago. 

As for acquiring anything other than severe migraines in France, 30-odd years of experience have taught me not to be wildly optimistic. With enough time, determination and patience, however, most things _can_ be seen through to completion - if one is either very lucky or in total Olympic form.

But perhaps I'm being too pessimistic here.

Tomorrow's another day (in just two hours, Paris time, in fact) and I'll see what can be done....









Pidgey said:


> Sometimes their beaks look something like you describe because they're hens and sometimes it's a sign of illness, for sure. I don't remember enough of Poopzilla's story to guess whether worms might be a possibility. If I were just shooting blind, I'd probably give the bird a course of medications for the majors and then make sure its nutrition program was excellent for awhile. Not living in France, I don't know how tough it'd be to acquire medications and that sort of thing.
> 
> Pidgey


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Doxycycline is one of the tetracyclines but has a longer half life in the tissue. this is the generic name of the stuff. Per David Marx, A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health, the dose is 10-50 mg. per day. He is probably a fairly small bird, being a feral, and so I would go with about 20 mg. to start and see how he tolerates it. You have to withhold calcium sources (grit) when giving this med.

Some of the names of the product are:
Bird-Biotictm (Thomas Labs)
Doxybird (Medpet)
Pigeon Doxyvet-P (Vetafarm)

If you can't find any Doxycycline, then go to the Tetracyclines. See what you can find in the morning at a pet store. They use this stuff for all kinds of pet birds. Parrots get upper respiratory infections too. We will figure out the dosage when you see what product you can obtain. Keep him warm and out of drafts. No window watching tonight. I'm just making a guess based on the symptoms you describe and what I have read, but I think he probably has some infected sinuses. The drainage causes the cere to darken because it drains from the sinus down past the cere to the slit in the roof of his mouth, staining the cere on it's way.

Margaret


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Thank you for that detailed and succinct response, Margarret - and everyone else who has offered suggestions and input.

I will try to obtain the doxycycline tomorrow - as well as some vitamins or whatever else might do some good for P'zilla. 

For now, windows closed, a no-draft environment and an eagle-eye for any emerging symptoms - or improvements.

I'll keep you all posted as to the progress, and thank you all again....


Addendum: yes, doxycycline does exist here: I just Googled it in French. Apparently for human consumption, but I'll pursue the matter further tomorrow (visions of ryannon holding up the local pharmacy at gun-point in order to obtain doxycycline without the all-important prescription: "Stand back you fools - it's not for _me_ but for Poopzilla the _Pigeon!_)




Margarret said:


> Doxycycline is one of the tetracyclines but has a longer half life in the tissue. this is the generic name of the stuff. Per David Marx, A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health, the dose is 10-50 mg. per day. He is probably a fairly small bird, being a feral, and so I would go with about 20 mg. to start and see how he tolerates it. You have to withhold calcium sources (grit) when giving this med.
> 
> Some of the names of the product are:
> Bird-Biotictm (Thomas Labs)
> ...


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Shi, I always thought that wattles were something one found on turkeys - and certain usually rather unsympathetic individuals. 

In answer to your questions, Poopzilla is getting a well-balanced assortment of various seeds and grains (packaged, for doves and pigeons) plus a few vegetables like lettuce and endives, plus the occasional treats like bits of gouda cheese or small fragments of peanuts that he likes me to feed him by hand when we're into snuggling mode... sigh....

(Why aren't there any 'heart' smilies in the selection?)

Oh yes, as for 'age' (I presume you mean P'zilla and not me or the stuff he eats - which is fresh): he's a little over a year old - I'd estimate fourteen months tops....


mr squeaks said:


> Hi Ry/Jon...
> 
> The part of Poopzilla's anatomy to which you are referring is called a "wattle."
> 
> ...


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

mr squeaks said:


> Hi Ry/Jon...
> 
> The part of Poopzilla's anatomy to which you are referring is called a "wattle."
> 
> ...


Hi Shi,

You are right. I think a wattle is correct too. I called it a cere as that is what the Australian vet book called it when describing sinus infections. The cere is the featherless area around the eye as far as I know. And perhaps some people use the terms interchangeably? Back to the anatomy books for me.

Margaret


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

There _is_ some confusion of terms. I, too, thought the same as you did. 

Supposedly, the Cere is the area around the eye. Then again, I always thought it was the wattle, once the judge called the "cere" a wattle! Confused yet??? Yeah, me too...oh well, to keep things in perspective, I can just say "that fleshy part at the top of the beak!" There! Hopefully, that will take care of descriptions...*sigh* 

Then, of course, then there are "homing," "feral," and ALL KINDS of fancy birds: all called PIGEONS! 

Oh well, I THINK I know what the wing is? The beak? The toes? Eyes? Feathers or lack thereof? 

OK, enough frivolity...back to the Poops and his health! Once they have settled in your heart, you want to do all you can to keep them happy and healthy (they are already wise!).

And, we don't want his fans to worry!! 

Wishing all the best!!

Shi

Thanks, Margaret! I didn't see your post until AFTER I posted! Yes, the terms sure do seem to be used interchangeably!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 





What do the Poops and Urates look like?


Colors, consistancys, number-in-a-day, size..?


And, is his appetite being effected?


Lastly, either way, how does his Crop seem?


Does it seem to be full? Partly full? Sluggish? Squishy? Sodden? Or..?


His Nares really ought to have been definitely vibrant 'White' once reaching adulthood and since...so, possibly, something has been amiss for quite a while...even if not seeming to be effecting him in demeanor or energy.




Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

mr squeaks said:


> Supposedly, the Cere is the area around the eye. Then again, I always thought it was the wattle, once the judge called the "cere" a wattle! Confused yet??? Yeah, me too...oh well, to keep things in perspective, I can just say "that fleshy part at the top of the beak!" There! Hopefully, that will take care of descriptions...*sigh*


According to the Cornell bird people, that fleshy part is the cere (which is what I've always known it as also):

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/pigeonwatch/resources/cool-facts-about-pigeons

Jennifer


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

ryannon said:


> Ah, Margarret!
> 
> first thing is to find the French equivalent of doxycycline (unless that is the generic name for the molecule) and then to obtain it - which once again, should be do-able even _here._
> 
> ..


Hello Jonathan
We have Doxycycline in Belgium (Ornicure from Oropharma, especially for pigeons).
I'll send you some on Monday, if I can find it at the pharmacy, last time I went there, they ran out of it, not sure if it is available again.
Myriam


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hi Phil, and thanks for replying...

It's way late here, and Poopzilla is the only one sleeping; as for me, I can't see straight enough to give you the answers to the questions you've asked - other than to say that everything seems 'normal' with him except for the noticeable slowing down, the sleeping and some odd head movements (backwards, sort of what you might see with mild PMV symptoms... 

More tomorrow when it's light and I can look at things a little more closely...

Thanks again for your help 



pdpbison said:


> Hi ryannon,
> 
> 
> What do the Poops and Urates look like?
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryyannon, 



Okeydoke...


Anyway, do this -


1) Look at all recent poops/urates and let us know the details of your observations on that.


2) Spigot him in a loose 'Burrito' as you sit, so he is held vertically behind your knees, with your legs gripping his Tail and the extra cloth around it...and...open his Beak wide, under a good light, and have a good look at his Tracheal opening, noting it's color and if it seems damp or 'milky' looking or whatever else you can see about it, and about things generally in his Troat...color of Throat and so on...

...does his Tracheal opening close and open as he breathes? Does it stay open or stay widely open, and not close between breaths? 




Till next...

Best wishes you two..!



Phil
l v


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Oh I do hope Poopzilla is feeling much better & perky again soon! I'll be pulling for him. Hang in there Jon and of course continue to keep us posted.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hello Everyone! 

Here's the Poopzilla Progress Report:

After having shaken, rattled and rolled the P'zilla in all directions, opened his beak and peered down his throat, palped his crop (A-ok), listened to his breathing and examined his poops in great detail, I've come to the conclusion that all appears normal. His eyes (when he's not dozing) look fine as well: bright, as beady with potential mischief as ever, and no secretions. 

His poops are of good size, as frequent as usual, the consistency of toothpaste and more or less of a dark green-to-olive color with an admixture of pure white. The dark-greenish hue may be due to the fact that he's been eating quite a bit of green lentils and split peas along with his regular mixture of seeds and grains. 

There is no sneezing or gasping for breath, and his PMV-type head movements seem to have calmed down. As for the color of his upper beak, on a Pepsodent scale of one to ten (pure white), I'd give him five or six: it's less grey than off white, and has been that way from the very beginning. 

I do confess to not having examined the movement of his tracheal opening in the way that Phil suggested (I didn't want to upset him so soon after waking this afternoon), but I will do this when I feel he won't be overly upset by such an unusual procedure.

We both slept (next to each other) until around two in the afternoon, after which I left to hunt down some vitamins and whatever else I could find to reinforce his system. Upon returning several hours later, he seems lively and playful. I'll have to see how the rest of the late afternoon and evening plays out.

After considering all of the advice and help which has been so graciously offered by you, I've come to this conclusion: rather than filling him up with antibiotics - which I avoid taking myself - I'm going to keep him under close observation and have his poop analized for viral, bacterial and parasitical infection.

In the meantime, he'll be receiving doses of a liquid multi-vitamin solution: *Topvit*, which is made in Belgium and contains all the B-complex elements, plus A, E, C, D3, Panthanol, Folic Acid, and Biotin. For the minerals, I bought a compact block containing Calcium, Sodium, Magnesium, Iron, Copper and Sulphur on a grit-like rectangle of crushed oyster shells that (theoretically) he'll peck on at will.

Presently, and after his initial 'hello' he's back at the end of the bed with his eyes closed, head a bit down and snoozing on his feet: this is the part that continues to worry me, but as I said above, I hesitate starting him on antibiotics until I can get his poop analyzed. 

Please feel free to let me know what you think of this approach, and to query me on anything else pertaining to the situation and the treatment. 

If I see a worsening of his condition, I will start a treatment of Doxycycline that several of you have suggested. Myriam has also very kindly done some calling around from Belgium to France and come up with a list of what appear to be competent vets I can consult in an emergency.

In the meantime, I'm going to watch and wait - and set about acquiring the basic medicinal necessities in the event that they should be needed: Teresa kindly sent me a list of recommended products.

And that's about all the news that fits: I still don't understand why Poopzilla is acting so pooped-out, but perhaps the analysis of his droppings will reveal the underlying causes.

Thank you all for your concern; I'll give an update when there's something new to report. 

In the meantime, I'd appreciate your opinion of _not_ starting him on the antibiotics: it's kind of my gut feeling, but I could be way wrong about this and if you feel I am, don't hesitate to let me know. Only a fool never changes his mind.

My best wishes to all of you,

Worried Jonathan & Pooped-Out Poopzilla










pdpbison said:


> Hi ryyannon,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think having his poop analyzed would be a good idea.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the update. I think having the poop analyzed is the best idea, and then you can find out IF there is anything going on. Nutrition will always help, it never hurts.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 




Sounds good...


Might be a Virus effecting his Liver and whatever else...


There are who-knows how many various mild Viruses they can get, which pass, but which might slow them down for a while...so, yes, nice Vitamin-Mineral suppiments sound good in any event.


There are no fecal or other 'tests' to determine if a Virus is present, or, not unless one is the favorite niece or nephew of the CEO of some major Medical Lab anyway...


And even then, all Species have many Viruses as benign background symbiotes anyway, and telling one from another is serious 'Science' and costs big-time Dollars.


I was sort of thinking the 'P-Z' might be having a Yeast issue, for which, the famous "AVC-Water" would be an easy address to do and would be good anyway, regardless...so, you could consider to do that for say two weeks, and see what it does...


'Lentils' and 'Peas' will make for medium-green 'Pea Soup' colored poops...but brighter or 'acid' color 'greens' tend to suggest 'Bile' and hence Liver issues of some sort...or possibly digestive system infections or bothers the Liver is trying to iron out in it's way, if not being directly effected itself.


Possibly also, PPMV survivors can relapse later in Life...and this could make for some period of not appearing to be at their best for a while.


Or, PPMV survivors may have some vulnerabilities to some bacteria or incidental Viruses which would not bother a non PPMV survivor in the same way, just as a potential of their legacy.


Anyhow...just those thoughts...and, the ACV-Water would of course do no harm, so, it is something to consider, and it may help...


For his situation, if you were interested to try it, I would mix it say, to the tune of four Tablespoons of raw ACV to a Gallon of Water...and if he does not like it or refuses it ( not likely, ) then, try 'three' instead...



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Ryannon,

I think the conservative approach of watching and waiting is a good one. In the absence of definite signs, it won't hurt.

The vitamin mineral supplements sound excellent as does the pick stone. My birds love those pick stones.

A poop analysis is a good idea. There will be some bacteria such as e coli present and some others normal to pigeon innards, but it is the number of them that is important in a fecal exam. And of course those that should not be there if they should happen to show up.

I'm glad you got some referrals from Myriam. Those will be good to have on hand.

I think Phil's recommendation of some ACV water is a good one. 

I'll continue to watch for updates on little P'zilla.

Margaret


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Margarret et.al.

Yes, a whole therapeutic approach has been suggested, and it seems the best way to go in the absence of more definite symptoms.

I'm also thinking that the interpretation of the fecal analysis ought to be done by a vet.

Earlier this evening I took a nap and Poopzilla - who often naps with me, did something he's never done before: as I was on my back, he very gently lay down between my upper chest and left shoulder so that his head was just a few inches from mine and even more quietly than usual, made the very soft, low noises that he reserves for special moments of pleasure/satisfaction (i.e., when I caress his head - which I was not doing at this moment.) This went on for quite a while and progressively, I began to perceive an almost palpable form of intimate and particularly reassuring communication coming from him: it was as if he was telling me not to worry in a very special way. On the edge of sleep myself, I began to feel the tension and worry flow out of me as his own presence filled my consciousness. The 'distance' between us had never been less, while at the same time, I felt even closer to myself in terms of unity and an enlarged awareness of both of us. 

I know the whole description can easily be interpretated as wishful, romanticized thinking and anthropomorphic projection, but the basic facts remain: his unusual position and proximity; the modification of the sounds he was making - which have always been reserved for a very different context; and even the length of time he remained like that; although the whole experience seemed to take place outside of time, it was I who ultimately felt the need to change positions and break the 'spell.' 

Once again, this experience makes me believe that these birds - and 'animals' in general - are so much closer to us than we either imagine or perceive. In reality, the real mechanisms of 'projection' consist in our habitually superficial ways of seeing and relating to them - the filters we use to distance ourselves from their feelings (and in consequence, ours as well). It's understandable, since we normally 'just don't have the time' or the opportunity to reduce the space separating us from them: I suppose it's something we learn in dealing with one another and members of our own species in general. For many reasons (and most of them bad, I suspect) only a certain level of 'closeness' is tolerated, no matter who we're dealing with or whatever our relationship. 

Perhaps certain mothers or nurses who've had the experience of relating to newborn and/or very young babies will recognize what I'm talking about here - and perhaps the ability and need to have experiences like these are part of what drive women to become mothers or nurses in the first place

Whatever: I'm a guy, so after all, this is pure conjecture. 

But what I do know is that it's nearly six in the morning here and time to close this post despite the fact that it could go on for quite a bit more....

Peace and best wishes to all....


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Earlier this evening I took a nap and Poopzilla - who often naps with me, did something he's never done before: as I was on my back, he very gently lay down between my upper chest and left shoulder so that his head was just a few inches from mine and even more quietly than usual, made the very soft, low noises that he reserves for special moments of pleasure/satisfaction (i.e., when I caress his head - which I was not doing at this moment.) This went on for quite a while and progressively, I began to perceive an almost palpable form of intimate and particularly reassuring communication coming from him: it was as if he was telling me not to worry in a very special way. On the edge of sleep myself, I began to feel the tension and worry flow out of me as his own presence filled my consciousness. The 'distance' between us had never been less, while at the same time, I felt even closer to myself in terms of unity and an enlarged awareness of both of us. 

I know the whole description can easily be interpretated as wishful, romanticized thinking and anthropomorphic projection, but the basic facts remain: his unusual position and proximity; the modification of the sounds he was making - which have always been reserved for a very different context; and even the length of time he remained like that; although the whole experience seemed to take place outside of time, it was I who ultimately felt the need to change positions and break the 'spell.' 

Once again, this experience makes me believe that these birds - and 'animals' in general - are so much closer to us than we either imagine or perceive. In reality, the real mechanisms of 'projection' consist in our habitually superficial ways of seeing and relating to them - the filters we use to distance ourselves from their feelings (and in consequence, ours as well). It's understandable, since we normally 'just don't have the time' or the opportunity to reduce the space separating us from them: I suppose it's something we learn in dealing with one another and members of our own species in general. For many reasons (and most of them bad, I suspect) only a certain level of 'closeness' is tolerated, no matter who we're dealing with or whatever our relationship. *

I think you will find, Jonathan, that _many_ of us know _exactly_ what you are saying. There was one link about an Eagle named Freedom and his human, that was especially moving. Sometimes, all we have to do is "listen."

If one believes that "all time is NOW," one can be truly "in the moment."

There is so much that most of mankind does not know about ESP, yet those who have a special close bond with other species or their own, often report instances that seem unbelieveable. 

Which just goes to show that one of my favorites beliefs is alive and well: "nothing is impossible...only unknown."

Wishing you and Poopzilla healing thoughts with love, hugs and scritches...

Shi


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Thank you for your good wishes, Shi: the 'Zilla seems to have shaken off whatever it was that was slowing him down.

I can both see this and _feel_ it as well: it's as if things are 'balanced' again here. (A stray thought: and if our animal companions sometimes reflected or otherwise 'took on' our own physical/psychological stress? Hmm - there's a whole lot of food for thought there...)

I remember the post and picture of Freedom the eagle, which I sent around to several people who I knew would be touched by it (they were).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryyannon, 




Very glad to here 'Poop Zilla' is over whateveritwas..!


'Big Girl', my oldest and been here longest PPMV survivor was feeling under the weather recently also...and, whatever it was, she shook-it-off also and is back to her old sweet self again too.


Anyway...very glad to hear...


Make sure he eats his Greens..!


Phil
l v


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

ryannon said:


> (A stray thought: and if our animal companions sometimes reflected or otherwise 'took on' our own physical/psychological stress? Hmm - there's a whole lot of food for thought there...)


Hi Ryannon,

Many people believe that animals often act as "mirrors" to call our attention to issues that need to be addressed. Many animal communicators talk about this phenomenon--in fact, there's an entire book with stories about this: 

http://www.amazon.com/Reflections-Heart-What-Animal-Companions/dp/0764559494

Jennifer


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Hi Ryannon,
> 
> Many people believe that animals often act as "mirrors" to call our attention to issues that need to be addressed. Many animal communicators talk about this phenomenon--in fact, there's an entire book with stories about this:
> 
> ...


Thanks Jennifer, I just checked out the book. Sounds interesting. I ordered it. I think this is true, as animals do have a sixth sense. I know my dogs can always sense how I am feeling, and respond to it. They communicate without words. And so often you can look into the eyes of your animal companion, and you can just SEE what they are feeling. Thanks.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

To my way of thinking, it's much more reasonable to think that they (our animal companions) _do_ reflect what's going on (and sometimes even _what will be going on_) in our lives. 

But for this to happen, there has to be some sort of basic reciprocity for the 'circuit' to function. For example: an individual or a family who/which feels that a dog (or a cat or a pet bird or whatever) is just that, and no more: in that case, the animal in question will correspond to and reflect the same attitudes and expectations. The dog is just a 'dog', and so on...

At the other extreme of the spectrum are those who can enter into direct communication with animals through a variety of methods: shamanistic, telepathic, clairvoyant, etc. Or even the ordinary, "Hey, that's funny....all the dogs (or birds, or horses, etc.) are acting really strange!" - just before the magnitude 7 earthquake hits. 

I'm convinced that our ancestral knowledge and acceptance of such phenomena is disappearing as quickly as our phenomenal mastery of technology is increasing (along with the often-calamitous illusion of our "mastery of nature"). This is also being accompanied by a colossal dumbing-down of a form of instinctive and acquired knowledge our species has amassed during the last 30-odd thousand years. Which leads me to add that _**** Sapiens_ is a mere fly-speck in time - even the Neanderthals clocked on at least five times more presence as we have - before going extinct. 

My own feeling is that we're witnessing the beginning of another evolutionary shift: not so much in terms of morphology or cranial capacity as in some sort of human-IT hybrid (as in Information Technology) with selective breeding, implanted sensors and microprocessors (eventually on a molecular or nano-scale) and all sorts of add-ons which will permit a very small percentage of our species to go on to whatever the next step is, be it living alongside 'older' models of humanity (i.e. 'us', and much in the same way as modern-day Australians live alongside _but not with_ the Aborigines - or whatever the politically correct name for these people is these days) - or simply leaving Earth for further adventures on other planets and galaxies. 

But the meantime, I _will_ be sure that the 'Zilla gets his ration of veggies, Phil


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jon, it was good to hear Poopzilla is feeling better.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jon, I meant to ask you if Poopzilla is moulting? I don't think they always feel well when they're moulting and ours get a little lethargic.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Jon, I meant to ask you if Poopzilla is moulting? I don't think they always feel well when they're moulting and ours get a little lethargic.


I know what you mean, but the 'Zilla apparently went through a mini-molt three or four weeks ago: presently, he's fine in the feather department.

And quite chipper now - and I must say that I'm so relieved. Vitamins and mineral supplements from here-on-in. 

Need to find a laboratory and a vet for the poop analysis as well....

Our thanks for your concern


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so glad to hear Poopzilla is feeling "chipper" again. I know it is a relief for you, it could have been just a vitamin/mineral deficiency then. Meanwhile I hope your search does find a good "poop anylist/oligist", or someone who can just give you the "scoop on his poop." .


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SOOOO GLAD TO HEAR THE POOPS IS FEELING MUCH BETTER!! I'm sure your instincts are right on the money. Those who are very close to their bird companions "know" their bird's behavior and may "file" this information away, whether consciously aware or not. 

When Squeaks sneezes, I tend to panic: "Oh no!! Upper respiratory? Worse?!" So far, so good and he returns to his favorite pastimes of nest sitting, making sure I'm nearby and grunting, beaking or chasing the cats if they don't keep their distance!

REALLY relate your human shift (morphing?) post!! 

Personally, I was hoping we could "shift" more toward the ESP areas. Learn to live harmoniously with our planet and all who inhabit. Guess I'll have to "wait" longer than I thought! 

With the emphasis on technology, I see us fast losing any "natural" abilities in the above areas that we have/had.  That's _really_ sad!

Love, Hugs and Scritches
Shi and Squeaks with Dom, Gimie and Marlin Darlin' 

Forgot to add: MANY THANKS for the book link, Jennifer!!


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## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hello Ryannon,

I "discovered" this thread this morning and have read it with so much anxiety that I finished up by reading the happy end BEFORE I re-read it through from the beginning again. I cannot tell you how happy I am that all is well with Poopzilla again. If you succeed in finding a lab that will analyse his poop I'd like to know about it since I have arrived at the conclusion that this cannot be done in this country. I know I have failed to find such a lab in this region where I live.

Regarding yours and other members' comments on the especial relationship that can exist between animals and humans I believe that some people are better "equipped" than others to communicate with their pets or even strange animals. I could "fill up" many pages with the experiences my younger daughter has had and continues to have with animals ever since she was a little girl. 

Best wishes, Gladys


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Hi Gladys, and thank you for your comments. Poopzilla is doing very well - to the point where I've neglected investing the time necessary for calling around to find out from who and/or where I can obtain a laboratory analysis of his...well, poop. 

I would basically be starting from scratch, meaning that I personally don't have the slightest idea of who to call - and as you've intimated - whether this is even possible on a private level (as opposed to a public health matter) here in France.

But there are three places I would try, the first being the national veterinary school in Maisons-Alfort (01 43 96 71 80) 

http://www.vet-alfort.fr/

just outside of Paris. These people could do an analysis easily, but I have no idea if they offer this service to private individuals. If you manage to navigate through their dense bureaucratic structure, you might be lucky enough to find someone who knows who to address in your region of France to get it done. 

Next on the list would be trying to find someone at the SPOV (01.42.53.27.22.) who might know.

Lastly, I'd contact (but again, all this is more or less Paris-based and perhaps of little use to you in your region) one of the pigeon-friendly vets on the list that Myriam was kind enough to send me - and which I can pass on to you if you feel it might be useful.

Now that we're on the subject - and if it was not the middle of the night here - I'd get on the phone and try to find out what we're both looking for. Tomorrow is Saturday, so there might be some possibility of obtaining information, and if I do, I'll certainly let you know. 

In the meantime, and if you're feeling lucky and have the patience, courage and just the right accent, you might want to try to crack the information barrier surrounding the Alfort vet school next week: I _know_ that they do this type of analysis, but finding the name of the person and the service might take a bit of phone-time: it's possible that they consider this information more or less of a military or strategic secret. Once again, I'll share whatever I manage to find out, once I feel the courage to confront the user-friendly French administration.

Please feel free to contact me by PM or email if I can help you with anything....

And thank you again for your concern for Mr. Poopzilla (who - for a number of reasons - is generally in better shape that I am these days 

Addendum: This is from the list of vets that Myriam sent me, and might be helpful for you - at least worth a call to find out more; wherever he is (dept. 56) it's not Paris, and he sounds people as well as pigeon-friendly: _"Consultations gratuites par téléphone de 13h30 à 15h du lundi au vendredi par le Dr Lefevbre, ils délivrent aussi des médicaments et fait des diagnostiques et il fait les analyses lui même": Dr Lefebvre BP 48 56230 Questember
Tél : 02.97.26.04.12_


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ryannon, 



Certainly there must be Avian Veterinarians in Paris, and, additionally, Veterinary Schools here and there in France generally, who in addition, would have Avian departments.


Really, anyone with basic Microscope skills, could do it.


Any Biology or pre-med or Botany Student...should be able to do it.





You could learn to do it fairly easily yourself, and, without much expense, for that matter, obtaining a good, older Microscope on e-bay, for example...along with some Slides, Stains and so on.


This in itself can be done for less than the cost of one average Vet visit-and-lab fee...an one is then set for ever, instead of a one time thing.


I know there are several people on our List here who would guide you in the details...



Just a thought...


I bought a wonderful Microscope a while back, but, things are just so cramped here I have been shy to set it up and start to learn it.

I should, of course..!



Phil
l v


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Phil, I'm starting to adapt the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude as regards to Poopzilla.

My feeling is twofold: in the first place, I do think it's important to do an adequate amount of preventative and natural nutritional maintenance: after this first brush with P'zilla being ill, I've obtained liquid multi-vitamins for his water, an occasional small dose of apple cider vinegar also in the water (which he tipped over in an apparent pique as to the changed taste yesterday  ); bits of brewer's yeast that I hand feed him along with Gouda cheese when we're in snuggling mode; an oyster-shell grit block with added minerals - and eventually garlic caps and one or two other supplements once I obtain/figure out how to use them - sparingly: I don't want to stuff him full of all sorts of things that are supposed to be 'good for him' like an over-anxious Mom.

Secondly, what I learned from his short illness was that there were about a thousand possible causes and remedies (ok, I exaggerate a bit) and that if it had been a really serious affliction, he would have been gone by the time I had decided on and obtained the correct treatment.

All of which leads me to conclude that I'd be much better off trying to find an avian specialist in Paris that I can have confidence in and call upon in an emergency.

You and several other very qualified members here have got light-years of experience in observing and treating sick birds: other than feeding the ferals for several decades and learning how to scoop up and treat the ones with string/foot problems, I don't know s*** from shinola about the finer points of treatment and rehabbing. I've had my share of in-patients here, but basically (and luckily for them) in general all it took was a few days/weeks/months of TLC before they were ready to fly out the window and continue their existence as free ferals - who often flew back in for weeks or even months for a quick meal and a little respite from life on the mean Parisian streets.

So that's my position. As for buying a microscope and learning how to do it myself, I wouldn't even know which end to look through, not to mention what to look for - even after trying to learn about the subject. I'm great at some things, but avian biology is not going to be one of them in this life.

Your idea of asking a French biology student (other than the rare and occasional M.S. or Ph.d-level genius) to do the analysis just wouldn't work for reasons too long to go into here - other than to say that I'd have more confidence in Poopzilla himself doing it. 

So that's my position at the moment, and it's the one which seems to make the most sense to me: _in terms of what I think is best for the 'Zilla_.

It's not as inclusive as having all the possible meds here and knowing how to use them (meaning being able to precisely identify and treat any pathology he might have) but that's a totally unrealistic possibility given the circumstances.

Were it possible just to fly over to the UK (closest linquistically and geographically) with him and seek qualified aid in the event of a problem I'd do it without hesitation. I'd even go to the U.S. with him, were it possible to get in without the hassles associated with 'importing' birds. As it stands, I'll consider myself lucky if I can locate even one qualified vet here that I can have total confidence in. 

So in the end, and like many things in life, it all comes down to hope - meaning a wing and a prayer. In the meantime, and like all of the other members here, the best I can do is to try to do my best within the limits of my own knowledge and possibilities - and the invaluable aid, support, concern and encouragement of the kind people who respond and reassure as they've done in this thread.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Jonathan,

I am soooo relieved that Poopzilla is back to his normal self. Give him a smooch for me  

That's wonderful that Myriam was able to provide you such an extensive list of vets to call. Knowing who to call when something comes up is soooo important. I have a laminated sticky on my fridge with all the human-related emergency numbers (police, fire, hospital, etc.) that I updated a few years ago to add my vet's phone #/address as well as the closest emergency animal clinic. Saves soooo much time & panic when faced with a sick member of the family. Hope you are successful in finding a vet nearby.

BTW - there's another pigeon forum I've come across recently - seems to be mostly be members/information in the UK but may be worth searching around to see if there are any members/information from Paris there -- http://www.pigeonbasics.com/

Do you speak French? Sorry - but I can't recall just now if you do or not  If you need some assistance in that area let me know. I don't speak French, but the people I work with are all over Europe & Asia - I'm sure I could find someone who speaks French to help out.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Dezirrae, Poopzilla is terribly upset seeing himself referred to as a 'she' - _a hen!_  

At the risk of shocking some of the more delicate souls on this forum, I must say that from the very start of his life as an adult pigeon, Poopzilla has insisted on using various parts of my person to exercise his masculine prerogatives: it used to be my foot, but he seems to have decided that my _hand_ is the worthiest object of his romantic ardors. Short of searching certain specialized sites for an inflatable hen, _I have_ tried to find replacements, decoys and substitutes, but for Poopzilla, it appears that only I will do. _Sigh._ I never imagined that our domestic arrangements would include such interludes, but after all, why spoil his fun? You should see him strutting around afterwards: as proud as a little peacock.

_I'm absolutely certain_ that he's no dupe, and knows that my hand is just my hand and not a hen - but his attitude has always seemed to be 'any port in storm.' Put another way, and for those familiar with the language and morays of prisons, if Poopzilla could speak, this attitude might be expressed as "Dude, you my b***h."

As for speaking French, yes, I do - and better than many of the French themselves, I might add. Given the dumbing-down of the country, this is no exceptional accomplishment. It's just reality.

Thank you for your kind words - and I will give the 'Zilla a smooch and a scritch from you: he's a little affection-sponge and just soaks it all up - even if there are days when I seriously ask myself just what in the blazes I've gotten myself into with this guy....


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Oh my - I AM terribly embarrased  I've of course updated my post in case he reads PT (while you aren't looking of course) 

Now if you could videotape the displays after enjoying your hand (hmmm... maybe I'll avoid going down that path on second thought )...


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## Paris (Jul 18, 2008)

*Bird Vet in Paris*

Hi Jonathan

Greetings from Montparnasse where I just read this amazing thread and am so glad that Le P'zilla is all well. What a relief for you and your legion of fans on this wonderful website 

I just spoke to a close friend here who mentioned a vet in Paris who he consulted and liked very much, who specializes in birds! Here are his name and coordinates in case of future need:

Dr Christian BOUGEROL
Veterinaire
Telephone 01 46 51 70 25
50 rue Molitor
75016 Paris

If you google "bougerol paris" you'll get a map to his building, at the top of the first page.

Also, I appreciated and enjoyed your well written story and observations on communing and communicating with animals. I've found that once they know you can "hear" them, they don't stop "talking" 

Best wishes
Jane
aka Paris


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Thank you, Jane!

He sounds like a good possibility: I've compiled a list of several other Paris avain vets who are particularly pigeon-friendly, which I'll be happy to pass along to you and/or you friend should you like. 

Poopzilla sends his regards as well!


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