# 15ish day old, won't eat



## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi, I'm Kim from New Zealand.
I came upon a pigeon yesterday (15 day oldish judging from the website) and have kept him in a box with torn up newspaper and breathable cloth over the top. He seemed quite perky yesterday afternoon and I was able to feed him some fine grainy Hare Krishna muesli mixed with water (contains no additives). He won't open his beak for food but some is seeping in. However, today he seems more subdued, even a little grumpy, and has virtually no interest in taking food, although I have given him some of the recommended salt and sugar water electrolyte. I've tried crushed up biscuits, bread crumbs and even mince in worm-like strands. I think he may not have learnt about pecking yet. If I can get him to eat how often should he be fed? 
It is quite warm here at the moment...too hot for towels and heating pads I think...please correct me if I'm wrong. He climbs out of any towels I put around him anyway.
Common pigeon's are regarded as pests in Auckland so I'm dubious about handing him over to the SPCA.
Thanks,
Kim and Pushkin the pigeon


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for taking in this little baby.
He is too young yet to eat and drink on his own.
Is there a petstore where you can buy baby food for birds. I comes in powder and you mix it to make a liquid formula.

Here is link for feeding baby pigeons.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forum/showthread.phb?t=9682

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and thank you for helping the babies.

Baby pigeons don't gape for food, they put their beaks inside the parents beaks and eat. No worms please.

If the babies are 15 days old it needs a good baby bird formula every 4 hours, and needs to be fed with a syringe or tube. At this age small seeds can also be fed.

You can also use a baby bottle with a hole cut in the nipple so the baby can put its beak inside and gobble down the formula. They just need to know you are trying to feed it, by rubbing a little food on the beak and then showing them the bottle.

Make sure to keep them confined to a nice nest size bowl where their feet won't slip out from under them. they need a towel, or other surface where they can maintain a grip. Put the bowl inside a box, that is free from drafts of air.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't know why the link doesn't work.
Try this one

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

*unresponsive, possible overfeeding?*

Hi, thanks for the tips. I got hold of some Kaytee extra bird formula and made it up according to the directions. But he just doesn't seem that interested, poor little tyke. I've just fed him 5mL of the formula and he struggled against it the whole time. Clearly the experience is distressing to him. With the balloon method he just stands there beak covered in formula, and doesn't swallow a drop. Should I continue to force-feed him given that other people on this forum have advised 30mL a feed 3 times a week? He must be starving because he hasn't eaten very much for a day and a night now! His crop feels cushiony but it's difficult to tell whether it's full or not.

Awaiting your expert opinions.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello again,

Thanks for helping this youngster. 

Can you look down the birds throat and see if there is any kind of blockage, like yellow cheezy wet looking stuff anywhere down the throat or beak? Also, when gently feeling the crop do you feel anything hard or large mass in it? Is it all cushy?

Is the bird pooping regurlarly and what does the poop look like? I'm just wondering if he was eating well before you found him, or if there is something preventing him from digesting his food. 

Please update as soon as you can.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Kim, your thoughts about what your SPCA are correct. They will most likely euthanized the baby pigeon. Thanks for your concern.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I he hasn't eaten for that long, try firtst to make a very liquid formula. He will need hydration first.
Check his throat as Treesa mentioned.
Then force feed him cause he has to eat. Even if you give him 5ml every hour with an eye dropper.
For now do not give a big amount at one time, at least not yet.

Reti


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

Treesa,
His throat is clear, that is I cannot see any cheesey coloured substance. His crop feels cushiony all over but definitely does not seem full. There is a hard bump on his chest...I think that's supposed to be there. I wasn't sure so I'm sending you a picture. The bump correspongds to the uppermost bald spot on his chest.

As for his poop, it was white and brown containing dark brown worm-like looking things. It seems like he's pooping less maybe 10-20 times in the last 8 hours. It's hard to tell. The poop is now orangey-brown smears. Never had to describe bird poop before, not sure what to expect.

Thanks for your advice Reti. I will feed him a small amount every hour.

Kim


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Kim, 

Just wanted to suggest a few things here to you. When you're making the kaytee formula, make sure it's very well mixed-no lumps but very smooth. Also, this formula works best for pigeons if kept a little bit thinner than recommended at each stage. Don't microwave the formula either because of the possibility of creating hot spots in the formula that might burn the chick's crop.

Another feeding method you could try, is the "baggie method". Here are some pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/album/102109969uMjJeJ

I'm not sure about the hard spot on his chest you're describing, and I can only see the bald spot on his chest.

Hope this helps,


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kmey006,



What a little cutie...!


Well...I can tell you what I do and it has always worked splendidly -

To start of, have some tepid Water in-a-cup or something handy, and moisten your finger tips of one hand in it, and...gently massage the youngster's Beak with your warm, moist, finger tips...while you vocally say 'OooooOOoooo! - ooooOOOooo!' so as to suggest something happy and bright and up-beat with the tone...make it a 'low' voice if you can, a Baritone even, and say if fairly slowly.

This, if done approximately right, will convey to the little one that you are interested in feeding him, and, in terms he will understand instantly.


Food for Pigeons of this age is an emotional and visceral matter, and they never 'see' food or peck at anything in nature untill they are flying with their parents to graze or forrage, so, for now, food for them is a matter of something which happens between them and someone else whom they trust...and not something they understand as occuring objectively as an item to be eaten.

If he accepts ( and he almost certainly will, but, you might have to try it more than once since you are new to it,) he will 'nuzzle' with his Beak, and likely flap his Wings a little tentatively, and maybe also 'peep' or 'squeak' some several tentative sounds...

If that has occurred, then...

Get a regular plain old fashioned soft rubber people-baby-feeding-nipple, the kind that goes onto a Baby-Bottle, but you are not going to use anything but the 'Nipple' itself, and, you will use the 'Hollow' side of it.

Baby or youngster Pigeons eat by inserting their Beak into the throat of the Parent, who brings up food for them...so, the Nipple hollow-side works very nicely for them to have their nuzzleing beak directed into for them to eat, and, of course, one re-fills the Nipple however many times seems right for any given meal-time.

You may see some images of this method in-action if you like by refering to the thread 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13821

The thread also contains the following link to some images so you could also refer to them directly - 

http://community.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU




Powdered formula should be mixed with water in a Cup, in a pan of hot Water, so it may be served at what would be about your own 'wrist' temperature and no warmer and not much cooler than that. do not microwave the formula to heat it, as that can make for hot spots which will harm them badly.


Mere 'formula' for a youngster of this age is less desireable than a mix of formula and very small whole Seeds, such as Finch seed or Canary seed...

I usually begiun to introduce such small whole seeds by the time a little one is ten days old, and also I tend to make a semi coarse Seed flower or Seed-Meal in a regular kitchen Blender, and to use about 1/3rd of that for formula mixing also.

So, in other words, for one of this age, I would be useing one third powder formula, one third small whole Seeds, and one third Seed-Meal while adding also some other suppliments.


Give this a try, and let us know how things are going...

Hold the Nipple at about mid-Crop level, tilted a little toward him, and direct his Beak into it while having your finger tips of your spare hand gently "on" his beak sides the first few times...after which he will merely dive into the Nipple readily and all you have to do then is sort of hold him gently from the keel ( his chest, since you do not want to restrain him by putting any pressure on hid Crop) with your spare hand, while holding the Nipple in the other...


The images the link goes to will likely clearify some of this...

Best wishes!

Bon-appitite!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kmey006,

...if the 'lump' is of a somewhat central vertical aspect, narrow, and high-ish, it is his neck vertebrae...which when their neck is contracted will occupy the top front above his Crop area if one feels there...

Otherwise, if it is in fact a 'lump' it could be either an abcess or a foreign object in the Crop...so...see if you can gently investigate further on that to see...


Looks like a happy little Squeaker...

He will really get excited and active and assertive, once you two arrive at the 'Secret Masonic Handshakes' of 'feeding'...


Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

P.S.

The 'Nipple' shown in the images...I have taken Scizzors and cut off it's otherwise mounting flange, since it is not needed for this kind of use...so, doing so makes for a somewhat more compact and tidy Nipple which does not have a flange that will be pressing into their throat when they eat from it...

The average Nipples I seem to get hold about 7 millilitres therabouts when 7/8ths full...and, one does well not to fill them to the brim since their Beak will just make that overage spill out.

So, for a youngster 'Squeaker' such as yours, they would eat four or five such Nipple's full to-a-meal...and, have maybe five or six or seven such meals-a-day, depending on their metabolism and activity and warmth provided for them.

One needs to see how their Crop empties, and, usually it will empty in about three hours or so when all is well and they are warm and comfortable and relaxed and so on.

If their Crop is not mostly empty, then of course feed less for that meal or wait a while longer to feed.

Food-formula must be at about your own body temperature or they will soon reject it no matter how tasty it is...

Formula is best being about the consistancy of a Milkshake...and not 'thick' by any means...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

Hi Kim, I hope you don't mind that I shrunk down Pushkin's first pic a bit to make him a bit more viewable. He certianly is a lil cutie  I hope all goes well with his feedings.


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Thanks!*

Thanks, all of you, for your advice! To think I'd gone so long in this world without knowing about pigeons at all! I will do my best with young pushkin the pigeon and hopefully he will grow up big and strong.

Pete, that's fine about making the picture more manageable. I am a bit of a technophobe unfortunately.

Kim


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

Hello,

Pushkin the pigeon seems OK. I've tried every method but the 'nipple' method for feeding. That one tonight. So far I've been feeding 10mL 4 times a day, with not much wastage because the only effective way to feed him has been to inject it straight into his mouth, with some gentle persuasion. Just in case, I've been leaving him a small bowl of Hare Krishna muesli (he seemed to like that when we first met). The contents of this bowl have been disappearing somewhere and I've physically seen him pecking at its grainy contents. If he were eating the snacks I left out for him that could explain why he's not so keen at feeding time...that and my technique is probably not too hot. Do squabs aged between 15-20 days old ever eat on their own?

I'm still not too clear on how full the crop should be. I think he's probably still underfed, snacks and meals aside.

Oh and number of poops is between 25 and 30 per 24 hours? Is that OK?

Kim


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


The 'Nipple' is really quite a clean method for them and us...one merely uses a warm damp kleenex to gently pinch-wipe their little Beak and blot-wipe their throat as needed after feeding...or at least if feeding powder-water-formula which compared to their natural diets, is "messy" in it's tendency to cling to their face and feathers.


It is elegant, in that they do the eating as active, assertive agents of their own interests; one merely holds the Nipple for them, or, for the first few times, one also gently guides their Beak into it untill they soon learn to dive into it on their own with no Beak guideing needed.


It is easy, since one merely holds it for them, and learns to 'move' with them as they swallow and as they contract their neck and pull their head back... like following a Dance Pardner...and one does not force them in any way in any of it. Quite the opposite in fact, the Baby or youngster will have definite assertions and enthusisams and emphatic vocal and body language insistance, for eating...for wanting to be fed.


It is safe, because for them this is eating in a Natural way, they will not aspirate liquids to get partially asphyxiated, gag, choke, drown, or acquire subsequent bacterial pnuemonias, mouth sores, torn membranes or secondary infections from unwitting injurys, done to their mouth or esophagus or Crop, as they can when one uses most kinds of handy or 'usual' impliments to inject semi-liquid food into their mouth/beak, throat or Crop.


One can offer "tepid" Water in the Nipple also, and thus they soon learn to drink also, so one may offer "tepid" Water in a tea Cup if one wants, and they will drink. One does not leave a bowl or cup of Water for them, but one always offers it by hand.


The poop-count you mention sounds good...more is fine, but that amount shows they are eating enough anyway. Generally when I have counted poops from a youngster of this age or so, it is more like 40 or 45 in 24 hours, but individuals vary of course as do the size of their poops, so, more small poops, or fewer larger ones end up of course being the same volume overall...

At this age they can indeed learn to peck and self feed, either by our guiding them to it, or from being next to older Pigeons who are doing it for them to see and emulate.



The 'Nipple', once established as a familiar and routine happy matter for them, allows one an established continuity to proceed from also for Seed eating.


That is, for a single Bird such as this who does not have other older Pigeons next to him to learn from...the Nipple allows a continuity from which one gently guides their nuzzleing-gobbleing little Beak, into a small, deep for it's size container, of plain small whole Seeds. A typical 'Shot Glass' works well for this...while the Nipple itself is a little to narrow foe their Beak to open wide enough for Seed gobbleing.

Canary or finch Seeds, with some fine Canary Grit mixed in, are fine for their first Seed eating.

They can over eat this way when starting out, so one must determine how much to let them eat in doing this, and not to let them do it unto excess.

Once they start pecking at the Seeds in the little Shot Glass, one may shift to spreading some Seeds on a little Towell or in a small low dish, and peck with them useing one's crook'd index finger. It is important to them that one 'eats' with them in their early pecking times.


Without the 'continuity', as described above...almost everyone who insists to feed by force, then complains and laments of 'weaning' problems...complains or laments of the Bird's disinterest or resentment or other controll issues from the poor little Bird who all that while would have been more than happy TO eat enthusiastically, as self determined assertive agent of his own interest to do so, if only allowed to do so with some deference to him or her being shown or given...if only they were understood by their caregiver/surrogate parent in their own terms.


Young Pigeons also appreciate in many ways, being 'fed' untill they at their own descretion, they decide to leave off of it. So, my practice anyway, is to continue to offer Nipple-feedings, of their favorite formula mixes, long after they are self feeding/pecking their own Seeds...andlong after they are able indoor fliers.

...eventually offering the Nipple only once a day, then once every other day, untill they decide to turn up their Beaks to it. 


Many Pigeons adolescents unto young adulthood, raised in these feeding ways, will show great enthusiasms and assertions for this occasional Nipple feed-time and enjoy it very very much even though it is only once-a-day. By then they are large and very strong and can be very,VERY assertive about it! And be quite a handfull TO feed...!


The eventuality of their turning their Beaks 'up' to it, will happen from around 30 days to 40 days old, sometimes sooner, depending in the individual and their precocity and self image or other interests developeing...and is influenced also by their forays and social learning occasions amid other Pigeons and so on.


For now, if you establish the use and familiarity of the Nipple, and, after a few days of success or so, simply guide their Beak, keeping your finger tips on it's sides, guide it into a small Shot Glass of whole, small plain Seeds, he will 'gobble' them with the same action with which he feeds from the Nipple, and, after a few rounds of that, one round one day, another the next or so, he will 'see' the Seeds as something to gobble, and will gobble them with alacrity, and soon, he will begin pecking them instead.

From arrival here, to self pecking feeding, for a 12 or 14 day old Pigeon, takes me half-a-day if I elect to do it. A few rounds of Nipple feeding, then I can guide them to 'gobble' Seeds from a Cup if I want to...and within an hour, they are pecking on their own, and me pecking with them with my finger.


If one understands them, all of this starts to make 'sense' instead of being discontinuous fragments of indifferent practice, and of confusion and frustration or exhasperation for the Bird and for us...

Instead, it starts to get so much easier, very easy even, for them and for us...

So...

There if you want it...


Best wishes...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Off to a new start*

Hi Phil,

Your advice has been extremely insightful. Today I think Pushkin and I reached a happy understanding using the 'nipple' method. We are pleased to see each other and there is no grumpiness on either side. He ruffles his feathers, twitters and nuzzles my hand when I wipe him down after eating. He loves his wipe down afterward and will peck up grains spread at his feet at this time, while he is being cleaned. 

I had not noticed before how subtle the motion of eating can be for a pigeon. Alot like sipping actually. I had assumed...a wide gaping mouth I suppose. Poor chap has probably been eating his full this entire time but I hadn't noticed. Pushkin is a conservative squab but becoming more boisterous as the days pass.

Thanks for the help!

Kim


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


Oh!


Very good then...!


I am feeding my Baby about 35 mL a meal, five or six times a day, maybe seven times, I lost track the last few days with things being so hectic and varied...

But, anyway, they can eat...and their Crops at this age therebouts ( at any age, really, )really like the feel of being full-ish. I will guess my little one's Crop would hold 50 mLs just fine, so, 28 ish to '35' or so is my way of being sure I do not overfill him...!

Mine is the little 'Winter' Baby, having a thread some several below yours here in the line-up.

Anyway, too...you can be adding small whole Seeds and some Canary Grit or other fine Grit to his formula for the Nipple-feeds...

Make fresh formula every morning, and cover and refridgerate the Tea Cup of however much you made up, keep it in the refridgerator during the rest of the day, and just take it out and warm it in a pan of hot Water when feed-time rolls around.

Too, this liesurely hydrates the Seed in it, which then, by the last feeding, will likely digest easier during the night so by morning he or she will have a quite empty Crop and be ready with a capital "R" for some breakfast...

I feed mine about every two or two and a half hours...or, so long as his Crop has pretty well emptied of the last meal.

You can use the "oooOOoooo!' to call them also once they learn that it is your way of saying 'Chow time!' or "Have a drink of Water time!" and then of course they come trundleing out and are all squeaks and wiggles...( which they are anyway, for that matter...)


Have fun...!

Post more pics when convenient...

Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Boisterous little bird!*

Hi everyone,

Just some updates on Pushkin's status for you. He is a completely different bird! Adorable, noisey, HUNGRY! And dare I say it, a pushy pigeon. LOL! During the week I can only manage 4 feeds a day on account of having to go to work. However, I walk home at lunch time and spend a good deal of time attending to his needs. Because of these hours I have noticed that his morning feed is monumental and other feeds during the day are smaller! Lots of big brown poops for me to clean up! 

His feeding method has changed too. I noticed that he would go into fevered nuzzling every time my hand went inside his box and so experimented with a loosely closed fist full of food. He does like to wriggle his beak between my fingers or between my thumb and forefinger and gobble hurriedly. I can use my thumb, with the former method, to push more food towards his gaping beak. He sounds and looks quite comical, tweeting away like a referee at a rugby match, his head and chest positively covered in food. It is a messy method but he seems to enjoy it. That and his wipe down afterward. Though I'm being careful to dry him thoroughly afterward so he doesn't get hypothermia. 

Just one question with regards to drinking. How often should a pigeon be offered a drink as opposed to the water that is used to make up their feed?

Phil, I read through the Winter Baby thread. What a gorgeous little bird. I am blown away by your compassion and caring for the little tyke. All the best to you both. Are you a full time bird-raiser/carer? Sounds like there are alot of feathered friends round your place. I'm in an appartment building and we're not allowed to have pets so caring for Pushkin has been very incognito. Specially since our building manager is somewhat draconian.

Regards all,

Kim


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

The "messy feed" picture has got to be the cutest!!! It won't be long before that baby is eating seeds. He's a sweetie..


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, hi

I am enjoying your posts so much. Little Pushkin is adorable. Isn't it amazing how, of all things, a pigeon, can charm us so much.  Most people just don't realize how cute and sweet they are. 

You are taking such good care of him. Keep us posted.

Maggie


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

kmey006 said:


> Thanks, all of you, for your advice! To think I'd gone so long in this world without knowing about pigeons at all! I will do my best with young pushkin the pigeon and hopefully he will grow up big and strong.
> 
> 
> 
> Kim


Kim, I have been saying that for a long time now. You are in good company. Pushkin is one lucky baby, and I am glad you came across him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,



Well, he is a very happy little Bird! One can see this in his look there in the images...and handsome too...!

He is very pleased...!


Good work there!

Yes, once they are around maybe 20 days old or so, I also do a closed fist to hold Seeds in the space there for the nuzzleing Beak to gobble...


By then, the 'Nipple' is really getting too small for them!

Your Pushkin of course is quite a bit older than little Winter, who has only 'just' been starting to be fed some meals of whole small Seeds now, with some formula afterwards from the Nipple-buddy. 

Small whole Seeds in a little Shot-Glass, or even formula likewise ( if messy!) is a nice stage of progression from the Nipple also...and to have him gobble from the little glass, it might be necessary to keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak the first few times...so he can 'feel' them there so it feels right to eat...

I think it is good to keep offering formula untill they elect to leave off of it of their own sense of self, or of having gown-up-feeling enough, which is usually arond 30 to 40 days of age or so...and by then they are almost ready to 'go', so long as they have had some various socialization forays already to be amid their wild or feral kind...

Where, meanwhile of course, they learn to peck and self feed, so, at some point, I usually just offer the formula once-a-day, then once every other day, once they are old enough and well into proficient self feeding/pecking...and then they get all wound up about it, take one little sip/bit, and stand back with a funny look where, really, they want it, and yet, they do not...Lol...so, at that point, they leave it behind them.


Now, too...at some point, we should start to run through some things for his ( or her ) socialization for being a wild Bird once raised far enough with your excellent care, and, we can go into all that soon...

For now, is there some place you can bring them, to start bringing them very soon in fact, to set them down on the ground, and watch over them of course, so they can be with feral/wild Pigeons who are grazing or forraging?

This is the next step...

Anyway, yahhhhh...45 poops-a-day is about usual for one this age or so...when they are getting enough to eat and all is well with them.

Give or take...


Have you small whole Seeds? Like Finch Seed or Canary Seed?

...and some fine Grit?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

That's one happy lil guy you've got there! I'm so happy he's doing so well and I LOVE the pics


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


I forgot to reply to some of your question earlier...


Uhhhhhhhh...well, at any given moment, for a long time now, there are from six to sixteen Birds here...usually Pigeons and Morning Doves, but could be almost anything...

These are the logistically orphaned Babys or youngsters, and Cat caught and Dog mauled, the Car Hit, the grounded and emaciated...the ill, injured or somehow wayward adolescents or Adults, whom I incidentally find, or who find me, or whom people bring to me for their somehow having found me.

Usually all of this is fairly easy and not taxing, but sometimes I am overwhelmed by incomeing arrivals, and then there is almost no time for anything else for days or weeks on end...and, that of course is less fun for the Bird guests/patients, or for me, or for my creditors who are not amused with 'late pays' getting 'later'...so, if I get spread too thin it can be rough on me...so...somewhere around a 'handfull' is the ideal number it seems...and sometimes even 'one' is quite a handfull...!

Otherwise I am an old time, one man, 24/7/365 all around and special purpose technical Woodworking and Metalworking Shop, in an old run down spaceous Commercial building (soon to be torn down), downtown.

Untill recently, and Pigeontalk, I was in a total vacuum in what I was doing, and had managed most of it impirically and with naive intuitions or uninformed guesses as for what to do and how to do it. I had never succeeded to find any friendly or well informed or acessable Avian Vet here, and, of the very few kindly General Practioners, I was never able to more than exchange a few fast words to learn from them in...as well as that they did not know much about Birds, let alonf Pigeons, anyway. I had no Books, even though I had tried to find some ( pre 'Amazon' and pre 'e-bay', or, pre me having a computer anyway).

The federal license holder for this area, and her underlings, had snubbed me for almost 20 years, and I could never get anywhere with them in any way untill a few months ago, when, calling them for the ohhhhh, 134th time I suppose, trying to open some kind of communication, I managed to have a little conversation with a couple of them, but, to them, even if 90 percent of their patients die or no matter how badly they 'do' or botch any of it, if you are not a license holder, you are beneath contempt, and they will not give you the time of day for any reason.



None of them or the Vets I had gone to knew how to treat the illnesses I was confronting, and no one knew anything about raising Babys of any species so far as I could ever find out about...at least not to where their methods or sense of it amounted to much of anything but some slim chance for some poor Baby that came their way.

My best and most successful ( if naive) pragmatics had been with various species of logistically orphanned Babys, and, with some of the various presentations of Trichomoniasis in Columbiformes, and general nutritional regimins arrived at by golly and guess on which I was able to see Babys thrive or Adults seem to be well nurtured..

...and slowly, thanks to our forum here and it's contributing members, my previously casual and very scant and patchy education is now able to continue into more approximately medical formalities, and even potentially scientific learnings, as well as additional practical/impirical appreciations and recognitions of probable conditions and their regimens...from the discussions and cases we have going on in our threads here.

Thanks to Pidgey and Terry W. and really every one here, Cindy, Brad, fp, Maggie...others whose names or initials escape me at the moment, each in their own way, everyone here has been both amazeingly tolerant of my bargeing in on threads clumsily sometimes, and, encouraging to me to learn more, get Books, read them, pay attention, and keep on it..

Time, is the tough one...and, room in my head to have the quality of attention to learn...

Anyway...!

Lol...

I did want to suggest that a rumpled 'tee-shirt', or Cotton Towell ( so long as your Bird does not get their Toe Nails caught in the Towell's weave or loops) will be more comfortable for your Bird than will newspapers, and, if the poops are healthy, one just walks outside with the Towell now and then, and gives it a nice 'snap' and off the poops go flying to the four winds...or brush off the few that may not, and then just launder routinely...or if it is still reasonably clean, just re-use another couple days.

Of course, even healthy poops are best not allowed to accumulate to immodest heights...



I tend to buy bargain bags of assorted Cotton Towells at some of the Thrift Stores, and use those for their Cages, changeing them and cleaning them to then get them laundrered for the next round...

If a cage Towell is really nasty, from sick-pops, I just throw it away instead of bothering to try and launder it.

Cages in my situation, are only for those under observation, or those getting well from illness or injury, pending their free fly time indoors here to then see where I feel they are ready for release.


In fact, Baby and juvenile Pigeons may be kept easily on any small Table top or shelf without danger of them wandering off unless by accidental fall which is very rare.

By Nature, these are cliff dwelling Birds, whose young innately know well how to stay put.

My usual method is to just have them on a little table top, in a box on it's side, and a towell on the table, with a heating pad under a towell in the box, and overall, I can hardly recall any occasions of anyone falling off...but, it can happen. The Box then is open on one side and with a light cloth draped over that opening, the youngster may walk or come trotting out as they like, and go back in as they like. This is very much Natural and comfortable for them, resembleing somewhat their timeless Cliff Nests made in rocky nooks which only sometimes have any room to walk out in anyway.

Especially for young Birds, a rumpled soft cloth is inviting to lay on too...

Once old enough, they wish to start exploreing whatever they can and however they can...and to be clilmbing and or seeing how far they can get.

This then signals the gradual end to them 'staying put'...even though they will return for sleep to their 'Nest' and or come back to it when called to be fed...from their exploreings.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks Pete! Yeah he seems pretty chipper at the moment. I am constantly nervous about whether I'm doing the right thing but against all odds he seems to be happy. Soooo sweet! Loves a beak rub and back tickle...which is bizarre and probably shouldn't be encouraged given that we will both have to let go at some point. Reasonably soon as they grow up so fast it seems.

Phil (and anyone else), you mentioned Trichomoniasis and that it gave rise to 'yellow' poops. What is that condition and what is it caused by? Pushkin's poops are yellow brown in colour. That is, a white exterior and the yellow-brown stuff in the middle. They are large and quite fudgey in character (pardon the analogy to food). I think this is because of the combination of foods I am giving him, the yellowish Kaytee formula and the muesli grain mix, which is itself yellow in colour. As you suggested I have bought some canary grains and grit, although not red grit I don't think. It's white in colour and reasonably coarse. I suspect that I will have to grind it up a bit. The instructions say the grit should be fed separately or just left lying around the cage...I get the impression from the forum that red grit is sometimes combined with food. Is this so? What quantities should I use? How often should I give it to him.

Phil, he does always have some form of cloth with him, be it old pillow cases or tea towels. For some reason he is shown without in most of the pictures. These I wash after every feed and my balcony is now strewn with drying cloth. My building manager would get suspicious if she saw I'm sure. That and the fact that I wander down to the recycling bin every few days to grab a fresh pile of newspapers.

Sadly flying about the appartment is not an option for Pushkin because the place is not ours and he's not even supposed to be here. When he is a little older and a proficient flyer he can have free range on the balcony. As for forays into the 'wild'...there are some areas around here that I can start taking him to. I guess within the next few days would be a good time to start? 

Phil, you sound a busy man. I'm very grateful for your time in helping out my little guy when you have so many of your own to take care of there. Thanks.

Kim


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Too young to fly*

Kim says

_Sadly flying about the appartment is not an option for Pushkin because the place is not ours and he's not even supposed to be here. When he is a little older and a proficient flyer he can have free range on the balcony. As for forays into the 'wild'...*there are some areas around here that I can start taking him to. I guess within the next few days would be a good time to start? *_

Hi Kim,

I think Pushkin is a little too young to be taken out for "forays in the wild"- I know you said he can't really learn to fly around your apartment - but he can, can't he as long as no-one sees!! You would definately be better off letting him learn to fly around the apartment , under supervison of course and cleaning up those poops until you know he is an accomplished flyer - then would be the time to let him practise off he balcony - he is too young at the moment even to attempt flying.

What you could do is check out any feral flocks near you so... when Pushkin is ready you can take him near to the flocks - and hopefully he will follow them as he would have had his flying lessons. 

All the best for raising this baby - I hold my hat off to you

Tania


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim, Tania,



The sojurns into the wilds, or to be with feral others of their kind, are not for their learning to fly...but, for their necessary learning to become socialized into the requisite modes of awareness and sensibility for being comfortable and tuned-in to their wild/feral kin...so that, later, when old enough...they may join them.

Otherwise, there can be some problems for them being intimidated by the feral others, and not then having the advantages of ease and grace among them.



If one can cultivate an acquaintance with a feral Flock, and feed them routinely so that they are accepting of one standing there or crouching there as they graze...


Then, when one has a youngster such as yours, one brings them there and sets them on the ground amid the grazing ferals, usually I mean, one does this once one's little one is pecking for themselves...so that, the youngster, who can not fly yet, is able to peck with them and to learn to be responsible and sensible to the modes of being and modes of subtle interaction and communication, which the flock alone can provide them. And, the youngster and the other Birds all know you are watching over your little one.

if anyone bothers your youngster, just scold them verbally in a light hearted way and if done right, it works pretty well...or, intervene physically in some gentle way. Usually, no one bothers them...

The Juvenile will be intimidated at first, shaking and nervous and not doing anything.

Soon they will stand there preening in sudden need for distraction, and in being confused...


Then, some tentative walking over toward where others who are pecking...and maybe a few nervous pecks...

Then, ( and this might be the third foray by now) they continue to make the adjustment, to where they start pecking, look commfortable, and are not nervous and intimidated...

A few more rounds then will establish a pretty good foundation for later, when one does release them to that flock, in that spot, for their debut to occur in earnest.



It is easier for me, since 'my' feral flock grazes daily just outside my door here in the courtyard...

Or, since often there are any number of recovered Ferals in here on free-rove pending their release, who in effect, mentor the youngsters in these modes of Pigeonhood which I can not provide.


In Nature, the young Pigeons are introduced to the feral flock or feral others by their parents, once old enough to accompany their parents, to fly with their parents I mean, on grazing and forraging sojurns...and the youngster will fly back with their parents also. This then, for them, is when they begin to 'peck' instead of, or in addition to, being fed.

Of course ours, are afforded opportunities to learn to peck much, much earlier, long before they can fly to where Seeds may be.

It is not as sure with our surrogate parenting of them, that they will 'fly back with us', so, it is prudent in my view, in situations like yours, for their sojurns to commence once they are pecking, and to prudently cease the sojurns then once they are starting to fly or could possibly escape while still too young and immature...


Mine I take outside to be with the feral others...and after a while mine fly outside to follow me out there for this, and, when I call them, usually, they fly back in...


But in your case, once they can probably escape, unless they WILL come to you when called, it would be best to wait then another month even for when they are mature enough to 'escape' or join the flock, in case they elude your efforts to bring them home...

So, the intermission then is a prudence...to then start the sojurns again when they can fly well, and by then, the young semi-adult or young Adult Pigeon feels confident in themselves to join the flock and will decide not to come back with their parent(s).

If this is not done, there will be all kinds of problems for them to become socialized unto their feral kin and peers and elders...and a release would be dagnerous for them.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kmey006 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> 
> 
> Phil (and anyone else), you mentioned Trichomoniasis and that it gave rise to 'yellow' poops. What is that condition and what is it caused by? Pushkin's poops are yellow brown in colour. That is, a white exterior and the yellow-brown stuff in the middle. They are large and quite fudgey in character (pardon the analogy to food). I think this is because of the combination of foods I am giving him, the yellowish Kaytee formula and the muesli grain mix, which is itself yellow in colour. As you suggested I have bought some canary grains and grit, although not red grit I don't think. It's white in colour and reasonably coarse. I suspect that I will have to grind it up a bit. The instructions say the grit should be fed separately or just left lying around the cage...I get the impression from the forum that red grit is sometimes combined with food. Is this so? What quantities should I use? How often should I give it to him.




Hi Kim,


Trichomoniasis can have many ways of appearance or effects and these will influence the poops generally so that there is some kind of 'yellow' in them.

Usually the yellow is of a sort of chalky aspect...it can be flat-paint looking pools, or merely thin streaks in a larger brown or brown-green poop of otherwise decent form and consistancy...


Foods can influence poops of course, but not to where this would confuse matters to a fairly practiced eye...the kind of yellow this is, is distinct somehow.

It is a Protozoan infection...and more common in some regions than others.

A yellowish-brown or something would not be sigificant...but decidedly 'yellow' streaks can be.

If there is 'white' then I would think Trichomoniasis is NOT present...as, the White is in effect their Urine, and, the Trichomoniasis, effecting their Kidneys and immune system, makes for chalky yellow Urine by virtue of the large number of exhausted Leucocytes from the Protozoans being battled internally in their system.




> Sadly flying about the appartment is not an option for Pushkin because the place is not ours and he's not even supposed to be here. When he is a little older and a proficient flyer he can have free range on the balcony.



The 'Balcony' could be very dangerous for him...unless he is already a good flier and socialized into feral pigeon society so that if he goes and does not come back, he will be allright...otherwise, a just developeing flight youngster, could easily end up on the ground or in traffic or whatever and or lost.

If possible, his progress unto flying, will need to occur in your Appartment...he will need to develope his flight muscles with practice and excercise, and, he needs a safe place to do it.

In Nature, these little flying forays of theirs tend to be close to their Nests and seldom far from their parents...succeeding their climbing and scampering explores, to where more and more Wing action is used or tried...untill, flying well enough, they can then of course come and go with their parents and so on for a time, untill they set off on their own.

This intermediate phase, is one in which they need to be safe from mishap or from getting lost or in perils of Streets and falls and so on...

It is easy enough to let them do indoors, and lasts a number of weeks...


[/quote]

As for forays into the 'wild'...there are some areas around here that I can start taking him to. I guess within the next few days would be a good time to start? 

Kim[/QUOTE]


That is what I would do...and of course, to cultivate some familiarity with,and acceptance from, a feral flock...by feeding them and getting them used to you and your youngster being there with them in little visits...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Ignore me Kim*

Hi Kim,

Ignore what I said - Phil knows better than I do - heck I have never even reared a baby or treated a sick bird - I always whisk them off to the Wildlife hospital. 

I thought my information may be helpful but eeekkk  " I know nothing" - next time I post I'll make sure I know what I am talking about. 

Thanks Phil for putting me right and letting Kim know what is the correct thing to do - everyone else - ooohh I am such an amateur but I'm learning!! 

Tania


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tania,



Lol...well, my initial mention was not really all that clear, as for what I meant...

But you see my point on taking them before they can fly, for them to peck with and rub shoulders with the ferals...and to stay close to them to watch over their foray... is a whole lot safer and easier than suddenly taking them out 'for the first time' after they can fly...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Kim,

That bird of yours is a sweetie, I loved all the pictures I saw. You sure have been getting a lot of good advice from all too and I am glad you are keeping him/her for the time being.

Phil made mention of going to second hand or thrift shops for supplies and I do agree that is where you can get some great bargains. I like to use fabrics too for roosts etc and find if I talk nicely to the thrift people I can get bags of cloth that are destined to become rags anyway for around 2 dollars. Very handy and no need to be washing it all the time. Just head for the next rag in the bag and throw the old one out when done. They call them rags but they are old jeans, towels, blankets etc that the stores could not sell.

My reason for writing though is to alleviate your concerns about having an indoor flying bird. I have found that if you provide roosts that pigeons like they will gravitate there and not be anywhere near as troublesome as you might think. My apartment is mostly carpeted too and I have had very few problems poop-wise. You just need to think like the birds and it will be OK.

One thing I did though was to buy old blankets from the thrift store to put over couch, fabric chairs and other select spots in the house. Every week or so you just shake them out and the poops fly to the four winds as Phil said. It is practical and easy plus it's all worth it to have a bird living with you.

If you have time read my post about the Ficus tree and you will get an idea of the things I have done to keep my house happy and clean for me and the bird.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=109056#post109056 

Hope this helps you a little so you feel more confident about allowing your bird time to learn to fly indoors first where it is safe from predators and other dangers. The worry of course is that if you take your little one out for a test flight she may not come back and yet still not be ready to fly on her own or live with the flock. That might be the end of her right then and there.

If I were to introduce my bird to a group I would start by setting him down near the group in a small cage so he could observe the other pigeon folk and their behaviours. Liberally spreading seeds around his cage to give him ample opportunity to be mingling, as it were from a confined space, but in the sense that he is around those of his own kind without the risk of him flying off before being ready to do so on his own. After enough of this, and I would guess it would take a few to several days of introduction in this way, I would be prepared for a release into the flock provided he has had some good indoor strengthening exercise first and will be ready to fly with the eagles.

Just my thoughts.

Cameron


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

*checking in*

Hello all, just checking in,

Pushkin is well and seems really happy. Major developments have been:

He doesn't seem that interested in formula-based food anymore, although I do still offer him the mixture every meal. He prefers seeds mixed with a bit of grit. 

He's giving flying a really good go, not quite there yet, but he's definitely trying to get some air. He enjoys jumping off my hand at small distances above the ground and flapping down to earth.

Seems he woke up one morning and decided he was bored of his box so we moved him into the bathroom where he is free to move about and practise flying. Based on your cautionary advice, good pigeon people, he is not left out on the balcony without a chaperone.

We had a go at pigeon socialisation in the park the other day and although Pushkin was definitely curious about the other pigeons I think he found them rather scarey. He kept on running over to me and jumping up onto my knee where he could watch the other pigeons forage from a 'safe' distance. Further trips to the park are planned.

I think HE may be a SHE in which case I apologise to Pushkin in advance for any gender identity confusion he/she has experienced.

Hope you and your charges are all well.

Kim


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a great update, Kim, and wonderful pictures of Pushkin! Now that Pushkin is out and about in the house, please make sure everything is pigeon proofed and safe for the young one. Please do keep us posted.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


What a cutie!

Looks happy and bright..!

About the same age therabouts as my 'Winter' Baby...

Oh yes, weeks now of flying progressions and lots of Wing practices and energy...and explores.

Glad to hear of your Pigeon Socialization forays...excellent...!

Winter is wishing to follow me to participate in my appearent 'foragings', ( ie whatever I am doing!) but happily, has soon understood not to do so unless I call him...

Whats new with yours now? Being as it is a week since your lest mentions...?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Kim,

Great update on Pushkin, looks like he/she is progressing nicely!


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## kmey006 (Feb 20, 2006)

*it's a girl!*

Hello all!

Well I was dubious as anything about the paper clip method for determining gender Oliver...but it actually works and Pushkin is a resounding girl! I'm sorry I ever doubted you! She also has a flat head, which you tell me means the same. Everyone in my work place has been subjected to the same test. Some are converted but many are not.

Phil, socialisations unfortunately only occur every weekend because of not being able to get away from work. This is a point of distress for me as I do not want Pushkin to become too imprinted with the human world. However, last time we went out she was much better adjusted. She looked quite a sight milling with the other pigeons, pretending to eat seed and quivering like a leaf. Virtually with her hands in her pockets whistling nervously. Towards the end of our outing, when she got too freaked out, she began to fly up to me and land on my shoulder. So, not exactly well-adjusted, but a great deal better than last time. I am hoping for advancements in this area. 

It is imperative that she be fit for the wider world within a month as I am going on my honeymoon mid-April and pigeons cannot come where I am going. I have been enquiring high and low for baby-sitters but can find none. For this reason Cameron, although I dearly love this little bird and would gladly make my home her's as you suggest, the best thing for her (I think) is to return her to her feral brethren. Worst comes to worst I am hoping that Sylvia Durrant, who runs the SPCA bird wing hereabouts, will be happy to take on this sweet little bird who really doesn't require much work at this point (aside from liking a human companion very much) until I get back. It is a very cheeky request because she takes care of some very sick birds in an official capacity...I don't know what she'll say.

Yet again I'd better get off to work. Late already!

Kim


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


The behaviour you describe is completely normal...just do these forays as you can and all will progress well...

Just so she knows you are watching over her while she mingles or quivers or is nervous and so on...she will soon peck a little more and gain the modes of awares and in-tunement and so on...and not be shy with them any more.

It is the same deal pretty much their pigeon parents see them do...just takes the sucessive occasions and little gains of experience...

In-a-month, or sooner, she should be ready to go on her own and do well...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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