# My Foundation Cock



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

This is the "Gimp" who is my Focus for the next few Years 








Not the best picture...
The Gimp...(828) Hatched 2010 not flown as a Young Bird,He was injured about Mid 2012 season....Thus, the "Gimp"
COMBINE...........
Greater Chicago Combine 12/28/14-15:57
PROSPECT HTS. IL
Weekly Race Report Page 1
Open and Junior Category
Name: WEEK 2 Old Bird Race Flown: 05/01/2011

Release(A): 07:00 Birds: 2125 Lofts: 72 Station: DE WITT IA
Weather (Rel) CLEAR, WSW, 62 deg (Arr) CLEAR, WSW, 65 deg
OVER CAST

POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM WS Cus Pts NDB Std Pts
1 SMAGA S /30 4270 AU 10 CHIC RED: C 08:47:02 133.910 00.00 2201.516 100 100 
2 TAPIA ADAN/33 4807 AU 10 KEN BL C 09:02:53 152.809 00.43 2188.616 99 100 
3 BUKOWSKI T/28 0369 AU 10 EHC BC:: H 08:46:45 132.445 00.52 2183.325 98 99 
4 LARSON M /22 0828 AU 10 WCC BB:: C 08:44:18 128.531 01.32 2168.807 97 99 
5 LARSON M 0209 AU 10 JRF BC:: C 08:44:19 2/22 01.34 2168.252 96 99 
6 LARSON M 0754 AU 10 WCC BB:: C 08:44:20 3/22 01.35 2167.871 95 99 
7 Handler or bird not AU affiliated; performance does not qualify for AU NDB. --
8 ADAMCZYK A/60 0561 AU 10 WCC BB:: C 08:57:09 142.567 03.11 2141.653 93 98

CLUB:

National Database-1 Chicago Westside Concourse 12/30/14-18:38
LOMBARD IL
Weekly Race Report Page 1
Open and Junior Category
Name: WEEK 2 Old Bird Race Flown: 05/01/2011

Release(A): 07:00 Birds: 558 Lofts: 19 Station: DE WITT IA
Weather (Rel) P.CLOUDY, W.SW, 57 deg (Arr) P.CLOUDY, W.SW, 57 deg


POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM WS Cus Pts NDB Std Pts
1 LARSON M /22 0828 AU 10 WCC BB:: C 08:44:18 128.531 00.00 2168.807 100 99 
2 LARSON M 0209 AU 10 JRF BC:: C 08:44:19 2/22 00.01 2168.252 99 98 
3 LARSON M 0754 AU 10 WCC BB:: C 08:44:20 3/22 00.02 2167.871 98 97 
4 YOUNAN J /52 5870 AU 09 CHI BC:: C 08:58:45 143.584 02.14 2127.733 97 96 
5 BRZOSTOWSK/28 4050 AU 08 CHI BC H 08:59:02 142.311 03.33 2103.936 96 96 
6 YOUNAN J 39758 AU 09 ARPU BB:: C 09:00:46 2/52 04.15 2092.351 95 95 
7 ANDY LOFT /60 1176 AU 10 SCI BC:: C 08:47:01 126.988 03.58 2088.253 94 94 
8 ANDY LOFT 26532 AU 09 ARPU BC:: H 08:47:03 2/60 04.00 2087.570 93 93
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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

WOW....What a fast race...And 3 birds on the drop together....You have to give some* love *to the other 2 birds also....*Great results !!*.............Alamo


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Mike Larson is a friend of mine, him and his father have flown for many years,
Yes he had a great Race! 
If I am not mistaken one of the other Birds on the drop is related to the Gimp.
A brother to 822 won the windy city classic If I recall
He gave me 822 fall of 2013, along with 5 assorted squeeks that had to be hand fed. Mike has always been generous to me!
http://www.topshelfpigeons.com/


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

Good show! Good foundation to start with...


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Thank you Both!..... He is currently mated to his Grand Daughter(in the Pic.),
I have just weaned a pair of youngsters off of this mating.
I will give mike a pair of youngsters to fly in May.
I have a son paired up to an unrelated hen , and a brother /sister Mating.
The Mother to the above 3 is an unrelated Hen from Mike.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Your stocking a bird based on 1 race, how did he do the rest of the year and how well did his son and granddaughter do.
Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

His children have not been tested yet. 
He was only in the basket about 6 times in his life,(never as a young bird) before his injury. if it was against only 150-200 birds i would agree
Even one race at 4th out of 2,225 Birds works for me, knowing how his siblings have done, and are doing and breeding.
Not great but he clocked on
4/29/12 318th out of 2459 birds 100 miles
5/6/12 108th out of 2480 birds 150 miles
6/10/12 233th out of 1533 200 miles.
Brother scored windy city classic
Has 2 sister, and 2 brothers at stock (at Top Shelf Lofts)
I am just getting back into it, and the other birds from Mike are all I need to breed with. 
One race you are pretty much correct, but against those numbers in the Chicago Combine with one of relatives on the same drop.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Sounds like you have a plan and thats more than a lot of people start with, keep us up to date on the young bird season. Good luck
Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Thank You!.. I go with my gut, and this Cock Bird has a disposition I really like.
The two sons are really smart. 
I will hopefully be doing some olr's next Year. but if not I will farm out Youngsters.
I road train VERY hard, and single toss like a maniac, in just about any weather.
before I started racing last time, I was just breeding and training them out for several years. Just something my Wife and I have always enjoyed doing, always combined with a day trip, or fishing.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Someone should start a post "Your foundation hen and cock". Interesting to see everyones foundation and why they were chosen. Gimpy is probably not a bad choice. A good questions would be, was your foundation cock or hen chosen before it gave offspring or after?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

When do you call a bird foundation? Prior to breeding or after?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> Your stocking a bird based on 1 race, how did he do the rest of the year and how well did his son and granddaughter do.
> Dave


Many stock birds on much less criteria than this. Had a good race, off a good sound family of birds, and a sibling also raced well. Funny how we can question this selection, when a guy will pay 14k for an unproven child of "Mona Lisa" and stock it without question. Funny how GFL and a piece of paper become our "golden ticket" of breeding criteria. We will question race record before we will question pedigrees.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I know why I stock a bird, it has to be a 600 mile day bird several times. I have never really cared about young bird racing, and that is a whole different kind of racing. I guess I'm just trying to find out what makes a bird a stock bird in other peoples eyes, I would like to enter the world of OLR's and have a chance of winning so yes I will question every thing, I want more info. I have bought 2 Ganus birds but I didn't know they were Ganus till after I saw the race record.
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> When do you call a bird foundation? Prior to breeding or after?


This is one more of those topics that should be talked about is general because it is important when you first start out in racing. Like Dave said he only cares about Old Bird racing but you can see the lure of OL racing and money young Birds races. I have only sent out a few birds and I would admit that most of my stock birds probably wouldn't cut it in OLR. I have been talking to Rick Nanez about some of his families just for that purpose so I might end up with something in the neighbor hood of a KLASS/KOOPMAN,KANNIBAAL/KLAK/VANLOON family if you could combine all of those together for OLR's.

I've heard the term "World Class " when describing pigeons and I personally would use that word before I would say any of my breeders were foundation birds. I have more than anything a collection of birds not really a family, although some of my breeders are "world class" I can't use the word Foundation yet because I have yet to build a family out of any of them. This is my reason for the interest in the breeding program posts.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

The problem with just stocking through race results is you miss the proverbial "Breeder" One that breeds great flyers but was only average to fair as a flyer but has siblings, or parents that did fly great.
I have know a fair number of those birds.....


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

When building a home,bridge,tall building etc....What do they all have to have in common with one another ?? A strong foundation....To me,this is what the term Foundation means when it comes to Racing Pigeons...The Foundation Pair must be super strong,with super health,that does not come from a medicine chest !!!
The foundation PAIR,must have NO bad defects!!!If there is a defect,it is so small,in one of the PAIR,the other pigeon of the pair HAS to have this in the opposite way....Meaning a strong point to the good....If the two pigeons have the same defect,that is a no no.....If there are two small defects,of the minor kind,the other pigeon must have them real good,to make the pair work as breeders....So,I say to you,the best way to breed,is to get 2 perfect pigeons,or as best to perfect as you can,to be your Foundation Pair....And winning a race is not the main criteria for these pigeons....Allot of pigeons with week bone structure,or stiff feathers,or long legs or necks etc,WIN RACES....But they are far from the quality to be breeders considered a Foundation Pair....Allot of Foundation pigeons come from outstanding racing pigeons...The Foundation pigeon might never have seen the race basket....But when you look,and handle this pigeon,it will make you feel like it is/was the greatest racing pigeon in the world....It gives off an appearance of look at me,I`m special.....I have been to a few racing lofts in my day,and I can pick out the BEST pigeon,in the lofts....It sticks out like a sore thumb....
Example:Many years ago,I gave a new flyer 5 YB`s,that won money in a local futurity,plus a stock loft hen...He also got a couple of birds from my mentor,who helped me when I started racing....Well,he blended these gift birds,and started winning races out of turn...The club had 22/25 members,and I was one of them...He was beating the crap out of me,and all the rest of the guys....Our combine had 100/125 racing lofts in YB`s...He was on top almost every week..No matter fast or slow race...After a few years,he went to race in another club,because my club,the old guys had made it very hard for him....They were jealous,to say the least...In the other club,he lasted 3 or 4 years,before he said to me,I can`t stand this bitterness,because I win allot....I train my rear end off,to get the birds to win...I spend allot of time with them,to say the least...So with that said,he quit,and told me to come up and pick out some birds to take home....I said,I need a HEN,that`s it....I have 30 of them,come up and take what you want....Nobody else will pick/get any birds until you get yours...So later that week,I went up,and seen some great looking pigeons...I NEVER handled any of the birds...I just looked and watched the hens in their section....I said to him,I can have ANY one I want ?? He said,you gave me some great pigeons,when I started,and so did Joe,so you get the 1st pick....I picked out a young RC hen,#043....He said to me,you have a wonderful
eye for pigeons...I said,don`t tell me about her,I`ll tell you....And I did,and he was speechless...Well,almost speechless....#043 became my Foundation Hen of all my RC pigeons....She bred 500 & 600 mile top 25 birds in Combine results....I still have these RC`s in my loft which are down from #043....Her great great great grandson,is my #1 stock cock.....I also have his brother on my race team,born in 2006...He has bred me a 2nd place Auction place money winner,and himself,was 109th Federation @ 500 Miles, 
with 104 Lofts & 1208 Birds from 4 States competing....There were only 169 birds clocked in this race,out of 1208.....38 Lofts No Report...His brother in the stock loft was never raced long distance...Never wanted to take a chance and lose a Foundation pigeon...The Janssen Bros were well known for not racing their pigeons long distance...They never wanted to lose a champ,or a Foundation pigeon in a race....

Another example:I was taken by an old timer to meet the owner of one of the better lofts in Pittsburgh,Pa....He had almost all Blue Bars in the loft....In his racing section,there were 12 BBC`s......I looked at them,and they looked exactly alike...The same size,and light grey coloring etc....He said,would you like to handle the CHAMP of the lot,who has won 500 & 600 mile races more then one time...I said,yes,let me have the one 2nd from the left,on the floor...He said,"how in the heck did you pick the right pigeon"....I said,even though all these birds look alike,and they were all beautiful,the one I picked out looked "The Part",of the bird that would be the BEST one in the loft......
Try it yourself,in one of your friends loft....See if you can find the BEST one by LOOKING
Only.......Alamo


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Then there is.........http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/loft/articles/the-stray.html


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Ad Scherlakens,misspelled the name I`m sure....Had a very small hen,nothing to look at...She bred all kinds of winners....Don`t forget,though small and nothing to look at,doesn`t mean she has DEFECTS....My dad was given a tiny hen,by John Blade,a well known,big time importer of pigeons from Europe in NYC...I have a picture of her...I would have given the bird away....Nothing to look at,to say the least...She was bred to a $1,500.00 cock back in 1965....Allot of money for a pigeon,50 years ago...One daughter that year won the BCA in NYC...380L....6112 Bands sold....2956 Birds made the race....The little hen,that I would have given away,daughter won the race....Size does not matter...Defects matter...Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I almost game my No.1 foundation cock "Ed" away because he was the ugliest bird in my loft. He sure does breed good babies though. They look pretty sharp. I crossed the offspring to my Kahuna line and the looks did get better. I probably have about 6 cocks that I could start over with and I don't think I would loose anything. 20/32 breeders this year will 1st or 2nd generation offspring of his with 7 direct children. 3/6 top cocks in the loft are him and two of his sons. The 4th is his grandson. The other 2 are off my 2nd foundation cock.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Ed x Charlotte ----------------- > 838(Cock) -------> Four breeding(Grandsons)
----------------- > 47187(Cock)------> Two breeding (Granddaughters)
------------------> 783 (Cock) Second year bred top 10s
-------------------> 798 (Cock) Second year bred top 10s
--------------------> 1266(Cock) Breeding well for Mark top 10s
--------------------> 45897 (Hen) -------------> Two breeding Granddaughters
--------------------> 784 (Hen) two years bred top 10s

Give you an idea of how foundation he really is. Gimpy might work his way into your family this much over time.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If Gimpy breeds well, I would look to get a brother or two off of him. I basically build my family around three pair. Ed x Charlotte and two two sisters bred to Kahuna and Tiger. Most of the work for the bloodline was done by four sources. Ed is 100% Vic Miller, the two sisters were 50% Vic Miller x 50% Bob Kinney, Kahuna was Vic Miller and Misc, and Tiger was 100% Flor Engels, and lastly Charlotte 100% Janssen Brothers. Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, Engels, and the Janssen brothers. Vic's birds are 100% Janssen based, Bob Kinney's Janssen and Gordan, Engels not as much. Other than those four influences my only other influence that has stayed is a pair of siblings the 54's. Even with 8 birds the foundation there still is quite the diversity. Gimpy and a few of his siblings could be your foundation.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I am working with 3 pair from 3 sources with a back up cock as the fourth source. all pairs have one bird direct off the gimp, sons daughters, and a Grand Daughter. 
Mike Larson, Gimp's Breeder(Top Shelf loft), says next year he has a Hen he would like to try mating him with. That Bird will work into the equation also. 
I am breeding a Pair of Squeek's for Mike around May from the Gimp, paired with his Grand Daughter


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