# Can you breed nest mates together



## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

I new to the sport an was wondering if you can breed nest mates together? Thanks any info would help.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

YES you can
But What you get as a Squab is another Question.


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

what do you mean what get as a squab is another question, deformed?


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Someone Explain INBREEDING to them.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

http://www.shewmaker.com/go4gold95.pdf


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

Sorry like i said im new at this and someone told me you can i just didnt believe him and wanted some advice


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

btrahan--your correct DON't believe all ypu hear or read.
My Pigeons can pull a Fright Train--Couple them up.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

A fright train, sounds scary.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Yes you can but till you have bean at this for a few years I would advise not to. Brother/sister mating will bring out the best or worst in the birds, and you don't no what you are looking for yet.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

btrahan23 said:


> I new to the sport an was wondering if you can breed nest mates together? Thanks any info would help.


Far as I know, a brother/sister mating of any specie is possible, if there is any specie on earth where that is not possible, then I don't know about it.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

The question should not be "can you breed nest mates together?". The question should be "should you breed nest mates together?".

The answer is: NO. If you have to ask that question, then you don't know enough about genetics to do this. It is done by experts who have a plan in mind that can work. But those that know how, when and why to do this, are few and far between.

The short answer is (as Warren stated): of course you can. But what kind of human baby do you think you would get if you and your sibling mated and had a baby?

Not a good idea, with any species of animal. Maybe one cell protozoa.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> The question should not be "can you breed nest mates together?". The question should be "should you breed nest mates together?".
> 
> The answer is: NO. If you have to ask that question, then you don't know enough about genetics to do this. It is done by experts who have a plan in mind that can work. But those that know how, when and why to do this, are few and far between.
> 
> ...


 Better said then I did thank you. Of course the subject of inbreeding is a thread onto itself, and far beyond what the person posting this wanted to get into I am sure !


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks to all who posted,For the record I was not going to breed nest mates but a buddy of mine said that he had see it done and they came out fine. I thought the same as you guys did about humans brother/sister, they would be deformed. I just wanted to hear it form some experts. Thanks you guys


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

where you from btrahan23?


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

jennings, la


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Awesome, I'm from Carencro


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

I figured you being a Trahan that you were from Louisiana


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes sir, do you race pigeons


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

No I do not Raise racing pigeons, I raise Modenas and Giant Homers. Will you be into racing them?


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

yes sir this is my first year racing and im hooked


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

That is awesome, Good luck


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

thanks i need it, lol


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## btrahan23 (Apr 4, 2011)

do you have any pictures of your giant homers i can look at?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

When I was 17 I felt the same way as most of you guys thinking you'd get a freak. But had a pair that mated up on their own who were nest mates they were number's 1 and 2. I don't break eggs so once they laid I let them raise them up and I'm glad I did. That pair became my best pair of breeders I ever had. They raised me 4 winners and thier decendents are still winning for me. And as for that first set of eggs the 2 babies wound up topping the combine in the first race of the season that year 1st and 2nd against over 2000 birds and I lost 2 mins getting the second one in and she still came in 2nd so they were pretty far ahead. I still don't do it too offten but I'll try now and then looking for more freaks to top the combine with. LoL


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

btrahan23 said:


> Thanks to all who posted,For the record I was not going to breed nest mates but a buddy of mine said that he had see it done and they came out fine. I thought the same as you guys did about humans brother/sister, they would be deformed. I just wanted to hear it form some experts. Thanks you guys



For the record, and not to add any confusion, I strongly believe that inbreeding is a very valuable tool, but like any tool, it has a time and a place.
My first bro/sis mating occured in 2004, and by mistake, I had been switching eggs, or throwing them out...that was the plan anyway. But, as you can guess one day when I got around to tossing the pair of eggs low and behold there was a tiny peep in the nest so I left them go. Sure enough one of those peeps made my 2004 YB season and did well enough to make the National Ace list. 

Since that time, I have gone as far as three generations of bro/sis and they were anything but deformed, they were however starting to look like peas in a pod. So, bottom line inbreeding can be a very useful tool. The problem is, too many fanciers pull this tool out of their tool box at the wrong times IMHO, because when properly applied it can set traits into your family of pigeons, but it will set all of them, both the good and the bad, so it can also take you backwards twice as fast. Suggest you try your hand at breeding for a number of generations before breeding relatives together.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

One needs to learn the differences between inbreeding and line breeding.

Often, mother x son, father x daughter, etc, breedings are done to keep or maintain a trait. It is a very useful tool in the pursuit of producing your own "line" of pigeons. But what I have noticed is that lofts that do not add new blood to their breeding programs for many years, make small pigeons. I know a guy who has not added new blood into his breeding program since the late 70's and his pigeons are all very small in size. None are deformed though. He does not race so I can not speak as to their abilities for homing. As with many non rqcers who have homers, he "thinks" they would do well, because he had good 'stuff' in the past.

Like I said. If you do not know what you are doing, I would suggest to not do it. A lucky happenstance now and then is just that. Lucky. If it wasn't, then we would all be doing it all of the time.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> The question should not be "can you breed nest mates together?". The question should be "should you breed nest mates together?".
> 
> The answer is: NO. If you have to ask that question, then you don't know enough about genetics to do this. It is done by experts who have a plan in mind that can work. But those that know how, when and why to do this, are few and far between.
> 
> ...


That is well explained


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> .......One needs to learn the differences between inbreeding and line breeding.......



I confess to me the differences between the two are blurred, and setting aside the semantics of the two, I don't see any difference between the two for any practical purpose other then perhaps degree. Mating a mother to her son, or a father to his daughter, or a brother to sister, or a grand daughter to grandfather...is the breeding of close relatives and thus inbreeding. I am thinking that line breeding is simply less severe inbreeding, going back to my statement of degree. 

Here it was discussed in more detail : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/linebreeding-inbreeding-8666.html


World English Dictionary 
line breeding 

— n 
selective inbreeding that produces individuals possessing one or more of the favourable characteristics of their common ancestor 

----------------------------------------------------

World English Dictionary 
inbreed (ˈɪnˈbriːd) 

— vb , -breeds , -breeding , -bred 
1. to breed from unions between closely related individuals, esp over several generations 
2. ( tr ) to develop within; engender 

'in'breeding 

— n , — adj


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I confess to me the differences between the two are blurred, and setting aside the semantics of the two, I don't see any difference between the two for any practical purpose other then perhaps degree. Mating a mother to her son, or a father to his daughter, or a brother to sister, or a grand daughter to grandfather...is the breeding of close relatives and thus inbreeding. I am thinking that line breeding is simply less severe inbreeding, going back to my statement of degree.
> 
> Here it was discussed in more detail : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/linebreeding-inbreeding-8666.html
> 
> ...


Hi Warren, from what I have read from the sources on the internet, I think you are right on the fact "I don't see any difference between the two for any practical purpose other then perhaps degree"

Mating of immediate relations (parent x children, sibling x sibling) have been termed as inbreeding and mating of other related birds (like grand parents x grand children) as line breeding. 

Now somebody might have another view, yet I believe this is a more acceptable terminology.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

sreeshs said:


> Hi Warren, from what I have read from the sources on the internet, I think you are right on the fact "I don't see any difference between the two for any practical purpose other then perhaps degree"
> 
> Mating of immediate relations (parent x children, sibling x sibling) have been termed as inbreeding and mating of other related birds (like grand parents x grand children) as line breeding.
> 
> Now somebody might have another view, yet I believe this is a more acceptable terminology.


 I shared the thread which was started years ago, and now that I went back and read a dozen or so posts, I am not sure the orginal post really shed any light on the subject. 

Like other subjects regarding pigeons, I found this subject a bit frustrating because we as fanciers use words which means different things to different people. I am thinking right now of a "discussion" I had with my current mentor and loft manager Lew Burns, in which he said he didn't "believe" in inbreeding and went on to sing praises of the cross. Well, we finally agreed to disagree until one day we were reviewing pedigrees and the like. And here I find he had all of these pairings of father to daughter, or mother to son, etc. etc. and I said, I thought you didn't belive in inbreeding....well, he didn't consider that "Inbreeding". He pulled out an old article he had been holding on for gawd knows how many years or decades, complete with pictures, in which a fancier had six generations of brother to sister....well heck, that sure was inbreeding...so in his mind, it had to do with degree or amount. In the end, turns out there was more that we agreed on then previously thought, because in his mind, if one "belives" in inbreeding, in his mind that meant you closed your loft to any outside crosses for the rest of your racing career, like those fanciers who state they own a "pure" strain where the orginal fancier died in 1890, and they simply inbreed forever. So, semantics in this discussion can mean so many different things to different people, and some folks have very formed opinions about some things, and can't hear what you are saying cause they are convinced you are disagreeing with their ideas, which may or may not be so. I know in these here parts, if you marry your first cousin it is considererd inbreeding !!  Whereas I am sure many pigeons guys would call it "Line Breeding"


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I confess to me the differences between the two are blurred, and setting aside the semantics of the two, I don't see any difference between the two for any practical purpose other then perhaps degree. Mating a mother to her son, or a father to his daughter, or a brother to sister, or a grand daughter to grandfather...is the breeding of close relatives and thus inbreeding. I am thinking that line breeding is simply less severe inbreeding, going back to my statement of degree.
> 
> Here it was discussed in more detail : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/linebreeding-inbreeding-8666.html
> 
> ...


That was a few years back on that thread But it still has good info. Linebreeding often is considered the first stage of developing a family line of birds. Spreading the strenghs of a single bird across the begininggroup of birds. WHERE breeding fathere daughter mother son Is the late stage inbreeding. Brother sister to me does not set the wanted line as both carry the strengh of mother and father. Often if you look you can line breed then as you line breed you also use the inbreeding tool to the same family group Line breed extends a new member the begining introduction to the family bringing in that out cross so to say. and There by conntroling the exsisting line. SELECTION must be maintained on which birds are to be used in the family line THIS case birds that had a decent race record and when tested in the breeding loft they showed they complinmanted the family group. BUT agin I feel NO hard need to mate brother to sister to strenghen a line. BUT it can be done in a not to tight group of birds That say are unrelated to line bred. For a real purpose. Maybe even prove that the parent mating was a click mating worth looking more at.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I believe that the more "complicated" an animal is, the less harm it would be to inbreed. Besides pigeons, I breed German Shepherd Dogs. Line breeding of them instills or strengthens all traits carried by them (be it father to daughter or anything along those lines). It is more acceptable to breed grandfather to grand daughter or something along those lines, to help establish a certain trait (size, color or whatever). The further away from bother and sister matings you can get, the better. But sometimes it is necessary. Uncle to neice would be a normal breeding practice, providing both are good representative of the breed. Old time pigeon flyers will tell you that crosses are the way to go, and not to try and keep a line of Fabrys, Trentons, or whatever.

For instance. Let's say you had a mutation of one green puppy in a litter of normal colored puppies. You decide to pursue a line of green german shepherds, to be rich and famous. 

You would most assurdley need to mate puppies from the litter, to their parents and also try sibling matings. Looking to produce a consistent strain of green german shepherd dogs. But everytime you do so, you may perhaps get closer to green dogs, but you will also be strengthening any bad things in those dogs. Such as overbite teeth or small size, or perhaps timidness.

As I said. To be successful at it, you had better know what you are doing, and better be prepared to have many bad health dogs or lost/slow racing pigeons. When you mate siblings, they won't necessarily be deformed or retarded. But the odds of them being so are greatly increased. A question that comes to my mind right now is: which is a more complex or complicated form of animal life? A dog or a racing pigeon? On the surface, one might say that the dog is. They seem smarter and more easily trained. But then again, pigeons are trained easily and can home. so....I don't know which.

I don't want to pizz off anyone, but in the Amish community or many Arabic communities, "problem" (bad health problem) children are more abundant. That is because the Arabic peoples most often conduct arraigned marriges with cousins and the like, and the Amish do similar things. Amish only marry Amish.

I have friends that are Palestinean and they have two deformed children in the family. There are four sisters in that family and two are married to brothers, that are their cousins. One is married to her uncle and one is married to a distant relative. But all are related and were arraigned marriages. Their spouses were picked out for them before they ever met their pending spouse. Family members got together when their children are just kids, paid dowries, and decided who was to marry whom, when they were old enough. This has appearently been going on for centuries. Their health and sizes indicate to me that this type of behavior has taken its toll on their races.

One of the guys who plays poker at my house on Wednesdays, drives for the Amish. That is his full time job. Driving them around wherever they want to go. Be it Florida, across town, or Michigan. He tells me that they frequently marry relatives and that they frequently have "problem" children, health wise. But that they keep those children "undewraps" and do not let them out in public.

Whether that is true or not, I can only assume it is so. This person is not a BS'er, and has spent twenty five years traveling with and working for the Amish here in Adams County.

I believe that line breeding and inbreeding are not the same. Linebreeding is also inbreeding, but is further apart than siblings. A father x daughter is not the same as a brother x sister. Because the brother and sister are basically the same but do not have all from the mother and father. A daughter only has half of what a mother has.

Hope I explained that correctly. They are different degrees of the same thing. Sibling breedings are more hazardous.

I participated in an online discussion about canines once. It centered upon whether a group of canines on an island, where they could only mate with their relatives, would eventually produce extinction or misfit/deformed canines.

There was a so-called expert running this discussion. He said that studies had produced evidence that canines under those circumstances, thrived and did not seem to suffer from matings with relatives. He also stated that the way dogs mate (females going into heat twice a year and accepting just about any male) would naturally results in siblings sometimes mating together.

I brought up that perhaps this did not necessarily occur. My evidence was the canines have been shown to have the ability to sniff humans and tell who has cancer, and sometimes where the cancer is located in the humans body. This is proven fact. Additionally, dogs have been used for other similar things. Such as therapy dogs who nuzzle an emotional child who is being question on the witness stand about being raped. When the dog senses that the child is becoming upset or distraught while testifying, the dog will gently nuzzle the child to reassure the child and help with the child continuing to testify. This is accepted in the courts of at least 5 states that I know of. Sometimes defense attorneys complain that a dog (who doesn't like dogs) influences juries and thus the jury is more likely to believe the child vs the defendant. (what a crock).

So anyway....I suggested to this "expert", that maybe dogs on the island can sniff or sense another dog that would not be a good genetic match for her, and would refuse to mate with that male. This expert stated that they never considered that possibility and now he was intrigued and was going to suggest studies to see if that is a possibility. He said that none of his colleagues ever proposed or thought of that possibility. That canines may be able to sense or smell a bad genetic match. After all, canines are some of the worlds best sniffers. When a canine sniffs a bag of garbage, it just doesn't smell garbage, it separates and smells each and every different smell contained in that garbage. It can smell the rotting carrots and the spoiled beer residue, separately.

A lot of discussion about a simply answered thing. The simple answer being to just say "no" to this practice. But it does have its place in production of better or "different" life. The first white pigeons may have come from sibling "marriages" Who knows.


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Gone...!...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Kind of funny If you look at many of the Pedigrees on birds being bought and sold The key is the bird being line or inbred back to certion birds And people buy that bird. Where a pedigree that shows No breeding back to a key bird the bird sell for less. A person can not cross and cross and think they will keep doing good. It becomes more luck. But a controled cross gives hope and wins. But brother sister I still think it does not contripute to a program. BUT can be done for the short term. Far as german shepards. They are known for a hip weakness I believe if I remember right. NOW breeding away from that keeps strenghs up. BUT are not breed line dogs related in a way. As the begining established a set type The only way to to have line and inbreed those dogs Or the type could not have been set.


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

here is an interesting yet fairly simple discussion

http://www.shewmaker.com/go4gold95.pdf


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> *Inbreeding*
> 
> Inbreding has and always will be the key to all progress breeding of superior livestock of any kind. Again by definition, inbreeding is the continual mating of individuals of the same related stock. The truly correct form of the word inbreeding designates only the mating between brother and sister or between offspring and parents, daughter/father or son/mother in one or more generations. Please note that nothing else constitutes inbreeding! Linebreeding, therefore, is applied to matings of a degree of consanguinity not included above! In the minds of most breeders today, there is no recognized distinction between inbreeding and line breeding what many fanciers commonly refer to as linebreeding is not such set in reality it’s just basically the same. Keep in mind that inbreeding favors the production of a selection of criteria a steady continuous build-up of breeding merits that emphasis upon the production of a family. Therefore, it make sense that logically if a breed is to advance, then inbreeding must be the device with which it can be accomplished.
> 
> ...


 I swear I have read this verbage somewhere before....did you cut and paste this from someone, or are you the orginal author ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

OK, allow me then to give proper credit.....

The writings that you have attempted to pass off as your own here and on your web site, is almost word for word from Silvio Mattacchione's site. When you do a cut and paste job on here, the name of the author and a link to his site should be used. We do not condone plagiarism here at Pigeon Talk. 

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm

Here it is in part:


*....Inbreeding has and always will be the key to all progress vis-à-vis the breeding of superior livestock of any kind; that, by definition, also includes the racing pigeon. Again by definition, inbreeding is the continual-and I stress the word continual-mating of individuals of the same related stock. More than this, the truly correct form of the word inbreeding designates only the mating between brother and sister or between offspring and parents (that is daughter/father, son/mother) in one or more generations. Please note that nothing else constitutes inbreeding! Linebreeding, therefore, is applied to matings of a degree of consanguinity not included above! In the minds of most breeders today, there is no recognized distinction between inbreeding and linebreeding. Most of what fanciers commonly refer to as inbreeding is not such in reality.

Outbreeding is the actual method pursued by the great majority of racing pigeon fanciers, since inbreeding can be quickly relied upon to disclose any recessive genes (read undesirable) carried by the stock with which a fancier is working, and most fanciers prefer not to know (read ignore and not acknowledge) that their stock carries such undesirable genes. Outbreeding, therefore, allows them to delude themselves. How often have you heard, "My breeding policy is one of performance, best to best"? Well, this breeding policy is really one of perpetual hope-hope (for the best) that they are actually doing something positive, when in reality, they willingly perpetuate undesirable characteristics within the breed. Now these same people with their heads in the sand would be the first to trumpet, "But everyone knows that the bulk of race winners are the result of outcrossing." I would answer that this proves nothing, since under the current almost universal policy of outcrossing, no other result is even remotely possible because the majority of youngsters born result from the mating of unrelated parents. This, therefore, cannot logically be even remotely interpreted as indicating that outbreeding (read outcrossing) is either the best or the most likely method to arrive at the production of champions.

You must always keep in mind that inbreeding favors the production of homozygosity, and if selection criteria are astute, a steady, continuous build-up of breeding merit, and therefore, emphasis upon the production of a family. Outcrossing has just the opposite effect. Therefore, it follows logically that if a breed is to advance, then inbreeding must, of necessity, be the tool with which it is accomplished.

A word of extreme caution is necessary at this point: Remember that inbreeding is a tool to an end. It is a special purpose tool. In and of itself, it cannot create anything new; it can only fix in a family desirable or undesirable genes by bringing all genes to a homozygous state. If the fancier was unfortunate enough to choose incorrectly in his original stock, then the task of breeding out the undesirable characteristics may prove totally impossible-and so it does in most cases.

In the hands of a visionary such as we have had in the past, it is possible to conclude that an inbred family can be purified, in which case the offspring would be almost identical in appearance, equally good racers, potential winners on race day, and ultimately, very valuable stock birds. In addition. such a family would be highly desirable for outcrossing because of their homozygosity.

My goal is to achieve a standard of excellence within the limits of a pure line. Very few fanciers anywhere have ever really established their own family of birds into what a biologist or geneticist would consider a pure line, The most basic reason is that a concerted effort must be employed over a great many generations to accomplish this end. This is rarely ever done. In the USA, Canada, Belgium, Holland, etc,. almost every loft is really a mixture of many families.

The reference to a pure strain today has very little biological or genetic significance. The name Sion, Gurnay, Bricoux, Janssen, Stassart, or Gits really has no real value to us other than to acknowledge the continuing fame of individuals who were very successful in imparting a common standard to their family of pigeons. Their pigeons were families, yes, but were they really pure strains as we defined in a biological sense? The answer is that they were not pure strains or pure lines developed in the fashion of Wegge or Ulens.*

-Silvio Mattacchione


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> OK, allow me then to give proper credit.....
> 
> The writings that you have attempted to pass off as your own here and on your web site, is almost word for word from Silvio Mattacchione's site. When you do a cut and paste job on here, the name of the author and a link to his site should be used. We do not condone plagiarism here at Pigeon Talk.
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm



I never said that was my writings or that I was the Author...!!! pleas show me where I stated it was my work...!!!

Plus this is what I have as an intro to some of the information I have posted on my Page called the Chronicles...

The Chronicles page will be based on Accounts, Stories and Topics with a twist of my Own Commentary & Perspective on events, happenings and other Information in the Pigeon world, here In the USA and Round the World… I will post a new Article every month about certain Topics I deem worth Posting or Writing About, But I will lean towards your Ideas, Inputs and Comments whether good or bad, will be Highly Appreciated and Taken into Consideration for future Articles… Please understand that I’m Not a Writer and will never claim to be one, some of the information is gathered, collected, sought-after, from reputable sources and brought together to focus on a main emphasis of expressivity on my behalf of self-expression with attention on a particular occurrence, event or subject matter… So try and tolerate my lack of Grammar, Spelling and personal innuendos’ I’m very excited to take on this new endeavor and I hope you enjoy reading “The Chronicles” as I will writing it…!… Louie

Which you can view for yourself at this link... https://sites.google.com/site/pigeonmumbler/the-chronicles


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> I never said that was my writings or that I was the Author...!!! pleas show me where I stated it was my work...!!!Plus this is what I have as an intro to some of the information I have posted on my Page called the Chronicles...
> 
> The Chronicles page will be based on Accounts, Stories and Topics with a twist of my Own Commentary & Perspective on events, happenings and other Information in the Pigeon world, here In the USA and Round the World… I will post a new Article every month about certain Topics I deem worth Posting or Writing About, But I will lean towards your Ideas, Inputs and Comments whether good or bad, will be Highly Appreciated and Taken into Consideration for future Articles… Please understand that I’m Not a Writer and will never claim to be one, some of the information is gathered, collected, sought-after, from reputable sources and brought together to focus on a main emphasis of expressivity on my behalf of self-expression with attention on a particular occurrence, event or subject matter… So try and tolerate my lack of Grammar, Spelling and personal innuendos’ I’m very excited to take on this new endeavor and I hope you enjoy reading “The Chronicles” as I will writing it…!… Louie
> 
> Which you can view for yourself at this link... https://sites.google.com/site/pigeonmumbler/the-chronicles


 It does not work that way....you can't post something, omit the name of the author, and omit placing a link to the site where you took it from. Please indicate *where you gave the author credit* and *where you posted a link to his site, either here or on your site ??? *It is called copywrite infringement and a violation of US law and International laws.

In addition, it is a violation of this site : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f9/policies-and-terms-of-use-7007.html

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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

You are Correct Warren Smith...!... I will delete the information from this site and mine... And I will also resign my Membership from PT…!… For this most disgraceful act of outright plagiarism
that I’m being accused of … My sole intent was always just to help the next fellow Pigeon Fancier…!… Keep up the good Work Mr. Warren Smith…


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> You are Correct Warren Smith...!... I will delete the information from this site and mine... And I will also resign my Membership from PT…!… For this most disgraceful act of outright plagiarism
> that I’m being accused of … My sole intent was always just to help the next fellow Pigeon Fancier…!… Keep up the good Work Mr. Warren Smith…


 I am glad you came clean and did the right thing. Not sure if you simply realized the error of your ways, or if Silvio Mattacchione & Co. had their legal representative contact you, after I contacted them. The pigeon world is a very small community, so in the future you don't want to draw unwanted negative attention to yourself, as such things can be hazardous to your wealth. 

As far as I am concerned, you don't have to leave Pigeon Talk because of this, as it appears to be an amateur newbi mistake, but I wouldn't make that mistake again, as it reflects on one's integrity, so just learn from it and we shall move on.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> One needs to learn the differences between inbreeding and line breeding.
> 
> Often, mother x son, father x daughter, etc, breedings are done to keep or maintain a trait. It is a very useful tool in the pursuit of producing your own "line" of pigeons. But what I have noticed is that lofts that do not add new blood to their breeding programs for many years, make small pigeons. I know a guy who has not added new blood into his breeding program since the late 70's and his pigeons are all very small in size. None are deformed though. He does not race so I can not speak as to their abilities for homing. As with many non rqcers who have homers, he "thinks" they would do well, because he had good 'stuff' in the past.
> 
> Like I said. If you do not know what you are doing, I would suggest to not do it. A lucky happenstance now and then is just that. Lucky. If it wasn't, then we would all be doing it all of the time.


Yeah, it's done all of the time with fish/reptiles to keep traits steady, but you have to be so much more careful with warm-blooded animals. It just seems like it's easier for it to go awry with their genetic tendencies. My poor little dog (dad got her from a "puppy store" that won't admit that it's a puppy mill) has horrible traits that have been bred in. (long palatte, no double coat--only the wooly rough outer coat with little insulation, bad joints, many allergies, freckles when the breed shouldn't have them, poor confirmation, early development of cataracts and breast cancer, etc.)


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Libis said:


> Yeah, it's done all of the time with fish/reptiles to keep traits steady, but you have to be so much more careful with warm-blooded animals. It just seems like it's easier for it to go awry with their genetic tendencies. My poor little dog (dad got her from a "puppy store" that won't admit that it's a puppy mill) has horrible traits that have been bred in. (long palatte, no double coat--only the wooly rough outer coat with little insulation, bad joints, many allergies, freckles when the breed shouldn't have them, poor confirmation, early development of cataracts and breast cancer, etc.)


A puppy mill Breeds for MONEY and cares little about there dogs. MOST often. But MOST pigeon breeder breed with some kind of a plan towards quality first AND yes there are some that sell pedigrees On birds that would not help anyone BUT those are dealers And they get a name wher people know they sell junk. Often when breeding gets tight. You notice the birds fertile less and for shorter times. Size starts to get smaller Ect THE idea is to off set faults through proper breeding In race birds you have to look at flying record. and feather quality, Want those flights to flex and not break. the ends not to fray so this can be bred for. Body type Seems hens help alot with that. Pigeons are cultivated by the breeders choice. Great birds come just so often And Many birds do not fit a program in the breeding loft A winner may be best kept as a flyer because it may not have the needs in the breeding loft. Some people can not look at that they think winners breed winners When often there grandchildren might and often they do not Stock birds are never winners BUT they breed winners. Because they were consistant. And carried the needed traits


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

re lee said:


> A puppy mill Breeds for MONEY and cares little about there dogs. MOST often. But MOST pigeon breeder breed with some kind of a plan towards quality first AND yes there are some that sell pedigrees On birds that would not help anyone BUT those are dealers And they get a name wher people know they sell junk. Often when breeding gets tight. You notice the birds fertile less and for shorter times. Size starts to get smaller Ect THE idea is to off set faults through proper breeding In race birds you have to look at flying record. and feather quality, Want those flights to flex and not break. the ends not to fray so this can be bred for. Body type Seems hens help alot with that. Pigeons are cultivated by the breeders choice. Great birds come just so often And Many birds do not fit a program in the breeding loft A winner may be best kept as a flyer because it may not have the needs in the breeding loft. Some people can not look at that they think winners breed winners When often there grandchildren might and often they do not Stock birds are never winners BUT they breed winners. Because they were consistant. And carried the needed traits


I know that. I'm not saying that the pigeon breeders are like puppy mills. Quite the opposite.

I'm just saying that warm-blooded creatures seem to be more challenging to properly line breed than cold-blooded. (As I have spent time line-breeding fish, and seen the results of poor inbreeding in mammals and birds.) There are many bad traits that are easy to accidentally magnify if you don't know what you are doing. The person asking is a novice, and thus probably should not be experimenting with pairing siblings until they know more of what to look for. 

Also, in many parrot species we are beginning to see shortened lifespans and in some cases less resistance to illness as a result of breeding for color, so one does have to take some caution. As a rule, pigeons seem hardier to these effects. Though I have heard several people here talking about how their pet ferals never seemed to get sick as often as their other pigeons--so it may be somewhat true of pigeons as well. 

(See page 5: http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/1.pdf )

Those who do properly line breed are very knowledgeable and I do not have a problem with them. This appears to be true of many of the most respectable pigeon and dove breeders as far as I have had contact with them.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Libis said:


> I know that. I'm not saying that the pigeon breeders are like puppy mills. Quite the opposite.
> 
> *I'm just saying that warm-blooded creatures seem to be more challenging to properly line breed than cold-blooded. (As I have spent time line-breeding fish, and seen the results of poor inbreeding in mammals and birds.) * There are many bad traits that are easy to accidentally magnify if you don't know what you are doing. The person asking is a novice, and thus probably should not be experimenting with pairing siblings until they know more of what to look for.
> 
> ...


 I have no idea if that is true or not. I also am not sure how one would measure such things ? I dare say that "most" people don't have a clue what they are doing when breeding either cold-blooded or warm-blooded animals. 

Since this is a pigeon site, I will also say, that IMHO the vast majority of pigeon fanciers are most likely clueless as well. How often has a fancier been called a "great pigeon breeder" when the truth is, they just happened to luck out and have some good breeders ? I bet there are many folks reading this, who have known of, or heard of, a fancier who had a great pigeon and he produced all kinds of winners, and the fancier was said to be a "good" breeder or fancier....and then the good pigeon is sold or dies, and then the fancier just sort of fades away into average. Truth may be, the fancier simply by luck ended up owning a pre-potent breeder and once that breeder was gone, so was the preformance of that "great" fancier.....

I have no idea what the real truth of these statements may be, as every year of experience I gain, the more I realise how little I understand this world we live in, and how really limited my understanding is when it comes to breeding better pigeons. The average fancier I suspect, will only ever produce mostly average pigeons in their lofts. And if by chance they should luck out and a great pigeon is hatched into their lofts, the odds are the fancier wouldn't know it, and if he did, odds are he would be clueless as to what to do with it. 

I am not even sure a person can learn "stock sense" or if one must simply be born with such a gift. I assume that like a trade or a profession, one can learn how to do things better then the average person, but the truely gifted are very rare. As it relates to pigeons, I don't know how many millions of people have owned homing pigeons over the last 150 years, but those who were truely gifted, and who advanced the breed of homing pigeons are certainly a very small minority of breeders.

The point I am trying to make, is that how much that we do, is nothing more then a crap shoot ? How much have we really advanced our colonies this past season because of our skillful selection process and "expert" pairing of our breeders ? How many "Super Champions" are we producing for every 100 YB's ? Every 1000 ? Every 10,000 ? I guess I am just frustrated with the realization that regardless of what I might be doing, good, bad or indifferent...the odds are the percentage of "good" or "great" pigeons that I might ever produce for the rest of my life, will be very small. And luck may have more to do with it, then any "skill" on my part.


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## Btrooper (May 20, 2019)

Question. I have two nest mates who seem to be pairing up. I noticed the behavior and separated them. I've attempted to breed the cock to another hen, but they have been in a nestbox for almost two weeks and still don't seem too friendly. I don't have the real estate to separate the old hen/nestmate out of the loft so she is still flying around and seems to still want/get the cocks attention. Just give it more time? Or is it a futile endeavor? I don't want the nest mates to breed, bit it appears they want to naturally?


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

I'll let mine breed "once" - 1 generation " not 2 in a row ! Then fly them and see how many race well. There are thousands of combinations that the genes can arrange themselves as. I don't think you will get retarded YB's in only 1 generation of brother to sister. I like to mate 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister - if they are good racers. This turns out well.
Another thought, If these are your racers and they want to be together, let them, I think your birds will race better when they are happy / contented.


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