# One of my birds is sick and won't get better



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

It has been a week since I found a hen on the floor of the loft, not moving. She had/has very watery poo. It was all water and yellow last weekend. I moved her to quarantine and started giving her Dacoxine 4 in 1 tabs. She looked like she was getting better earlier this week cause she would try to get away from me when I would take her out of the cage to medicate. She is drinking allot and eating some safflower seeds. However her condition has not improved over the last two days. She doesn’t look worst but doesn’t look like she is getting better either. There isn’t any Vet around here so I got to do what I can. I don’t know what else to do for her. Looking for help.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How long has it been since she has laid an egg?
Can you post a picture of the poop?
Are you keeping her in a warm and dry place?
Do you have any medications other than the 4 in 1 tabs, specifically canker treatment?


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

I have had her about two months. She has never laid an egg since I have had her but she has been "very" friendly with one of the cock birds. I was expecting her to lay eggs. I though she might be egg bound but all the symptoms I’ve read don’t just fit. Its been 7 days since she first got sick (since I found her on the floor). I will shoot a pic and post it. I have her in the garage and didn’t move her into a heated area cause she looked like she was getting better. No, I only have the 4 n 1 and some global multi mix. I have only had pigeons since Sept. and don’t know what I really need to have on hand yet.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can she walk?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jack1747, 



I would say to treat your Hen for 'Canker', and, begin a.s.a.p.


You can check her Throat for any lesions, but there may not be any to be seen.


Tube feed thin nutritious meals if need be, and, begin treating for Trichomona illness ( 'Canker' )...


Make sure she is adequately hydrated also, of course...


Have yoy treated Pigeons for Canker before? Do you have the right meds on hand?


Phil
l v


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

This is Elvira


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Jack1747,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is drinking a good bit. Her throat looks nice and pink without anything unusual to be seen. I have never treated a pigeon for anything before.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If Canker, the 'watery yellow' Urates would be typical, and, suggesting also, that there is blockage in her system possibly, whether she has eaten some Seeds or not...so I would hold back the Seeds for now, and tube feed liquid or thin meals which can pass easily, while getting her on meds for probable Canker.


What has there been for actual 'poo'..? Aside from yellowish watery Urates?


Metronidazole, Ronidazole, and other 'zoles' are the usual medicines one uses for Canker, whether or not one finds the 'classic' presentation of yellowy-white cheezy lesions on their Throats, since the illness can be occuring in various other areas regardless.


The 4-in-1 may contain an anti-Canker medicine, so check the contents, and, if it does, use it for a Theraputic regimin, rather than at the prophylactic strength.


I would provide definite positive "warmth" for her at this point, untill she is making normal poops and normal 'White' Urates, and is definitely over it, so, for for or five days or so, anyway, provide warmth...but cage her comfortable for the nest ten days definitely, even if she seems a lot better after only a few days.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> and tube feed liquid or thin meals which can pass easily, while getting her on meds for probable Canker.
> 
> 
> What has there been for actual 'poo'..? Aside from yellowish watery Urates?
> ...


Tube feed? What?

What you see in the pic is it for poo..

The 4 n 1 says its for canker.. so i thought i was doing right.

Elvira will be inside in about 15 minutes.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh! Your posting the Images occurred as I was making my second reply...


For what it's worth, shooting from the hip, I would say if it was me, I would treat for Canker, AND, for Coccidiosis...


And, I would allow her only the very 'smallest' whole Seeds ( like Finch Seed) while also tube feeding thin nutritious meals for the next few days...


Get those meds and get her on them, as absolutely as soon as possible, too.

Or, see if the "4-in-1" addresses those two issues, and get her on that, right now.


Too, if it were me, just for good measure, I would have her drinking Water, and, formula-mixing Water, be the famous "ACV-Water", and for her, I would mix it to be Four Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, to the Gallon of Water.


And, keep her on a 'white' Towell for her Cage bottom...so you can see the poops and so on, and, the liquids for now of her passing the 'water' will just be absorbed by the towell, and use change out to a fresh towell every morning.


Lastly, and just for good measure also, if it was me, I would probably include her being on Arythromycin or some close kin, for the next eight days.


That's what I would do, if it were me...

But if you can do nothing else, at least review the medicines in the "4-in-1" and see what they are supposed to address, and get her on that immediately...along with the Heating Pad, under the Towell, and even drape the Cage on the top and three sides, to protect her from any moving indoor Air, and to help her be warmer, and at night, drape it snug all round to help keep the 'warm' inside.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bring her in and keep her warm. Put an old tolw or shirt in the bottom of the cage for her to stand on.
Do you know how to hand feed?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jack1747 said:


> Tube feed? What?
> 
> What you see in the pic is it for poo..
> 
> ...




Hi Jack, 


Tube Feeding...

I am sorry, I forget sometimes that many of us are not familiar with some of these practices, which the ill, injured or infant Pigeons sometimes need us to do.

Oye...

Well, just see how she manages with small whole Seeds only, and since I see there is at least SOME little 'poops', this should be fine then...but make sure she IS eating, and, that you are seeing enough actual 'poops' in 24 hours, to say, fill up a heaping Tablespoon...

I was thinking that there have been no poops for at least a week, so...

Best wishes!



Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Dacoxine has Ronidazole and Furaltadone. I just haven't ever been able to find much out about Furaltadone. One of my worst suspicions, though, about 4-in-1 types of medications is that they're typically "subclinical" in the dosing department (not enough for a truly sick bird).

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/index.html

You can order canker and coccidia meds from the above link.
The best method for treatment, in my opinion, would be pills that you will give individually. One medication for canker and a separate one for coccidia.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to order invermectin for worms and Amoxicillinum which is an antibiotic. It's good to have these things on hand rather than scramble to find them when you really need them.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Elvira is now inside a heated area.. I can adjust the environment. What is the optimum Temp for her? I will "next day" what she needs. Just need to know what that is...


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Looking at the poop, I'd go with Baytril and Metronidazole, myself. That is very similar to what's in the Dacoxine tablets but Baytril (Enrofloxacin) is better for Paratyphoid, methinks. Some of that opinion is due to the fact that I've never had Furaltadone to work with... well, maybe all of that opinion.

Anyhow, you can get Baytril here:

http://vitakingproducts.com/storefronta.htm

If you look at that page, there will be a list of different types of products down the left: click on the Antibiotics entry and then scroll down.

The cheapest way is to get the 10% Enrofloxan liquid.

Pidgey


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Dacoxine tablets 

The directions say 5 to 7 days. Should I continue treatment? I stopped giving it today. Should I continue until I get something better/stronger?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This is what I would buy from Foy's. The link was provided in post #14.

#4036 Ronidazole {canker treatment]
#546 Albon { coccidia treatment]
# 519 Ivomectin {worms]
#593 Amoxicillin powder [ antibiotic]

You will need a hand feeding formula which can be purchased from a pet store. You need to start feeding her right away. There are several links in the resource section to guide you. Not too much at first.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Ivomectin ???? like for horse's? Thats a aside??? Not for Elvira now...


----------



## chlee09 (Mar 11, 2007)

if she drinks boil some lemon grass and give it to her to drink. it works on my pigeons..i hope she gets better she is a beautiful bird


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

jack1747 said:


> Ivomectin ???? like for horse's? Thats a aside??? Not for Elvira now...


Yes. You can use it for pigeons. A good thing to have on hand.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear your sweet little hen is sick.

Be sure to cover her cage (on all sides but the front) so she doesn't get any drafts of cold air, put her in area away from traffic and bright light too.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Is there anything I could get from the Pharmacy today? Until I can get the stuff recommended here mail order. Should I just keep giving the 4 n 1 tabs until the stuff I order Monday comes?

Elvira is inside warm and comfy.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You need to feed her if she isn't eating or isn't eating enough. Do you have a pet store that sells a hand feeding formula for birds? If not you can buy some dry rice cereal for babies and feed her that until she starts eating.
From the pictures you posted yesterday, I can tell she isn't eating nearly enough.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

jack1747 said:


> Is there anything I could get from the Pharmacy today?


Give her water with a drop of ACV (organic apple cider vinegar)in it. Also give her probiotics cap, that will help solidify the poops somewhat and help crowd out the bad bacteria and give her a drop of colloidal silver (Sovereign brand) down the throat for infection. You can purchase these things at a health food store.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

First I want to thank everyone for the help you are giving.

The good news is Elvira is still alive. The bad news is there has been no change.  This is the ninth day. She does seem to be moving around a bit more since moving her into the heated room. Her poo was less watery this morning and darker. More solid. However, just checked on her and now its the same as the picture I posted.

I have been watching her closely and she is not eating. She eats one or two seeds once in awhile but not enough. I have been giving all the birds organic ACV, 2 table spoons to a gal. She is drinking alot. I would guess about a half cup of water per day. We are going to stop at the foodlion and get some rice cereal. 

I am going to the feed store today to see if they have anything that might help. This is chicken growing county so if there is anything for chickens that I might try, they may have it. Any suggestions? There are no pet stores or health food stores within 50 miles of us.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if she hasn't been eating much of anything for the last few days then she's on the way out, quite frankly. It's highly like that you're not going to get out of this without her going through some fairly serious antibiotic treatment. A vet isn't going to give you Enrofloxacin (Baytril) or Ciprofloxacin (the human equivalent and it works just fine) unless he sees the bird so you might think about setting up an appointment for as soon as possible.

My personal opinion would be to go with the Baytril that I gave you the link for earlier (to order from). As antibiotics go, it has one of the widest spectrums going. You've already been giving the bird the Dacoxine and I'd continue that until the other stuff comes in, personally, on the chance that it's a Paratyphoid. I've seen that particular poop with that disease plenty of times. While you're getting that stuff, you might also seriously consider getting a Trimethoprim/Sulfa drug as well to have on hand in case this bird has also gotten an oviduct infection out of the deal.

Go back to this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=254686

...follow the instructions about using that page (clicking on the Antibiotics deal) and scrolling down to the Enrofloxicin (Enrofloxan) entry. There is also one for Divet tablets. It'd be a good idea to get those, too.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Are their not any fanciers close to you? Some of them may have something you can get and replace when your order comes in.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

My primary concern right now, until you can get Baytril and Metronidazole, is to feed her. If you get the rice cereal, mix according to directions - don't feed it dry. Kaytee Exact is the best thing you can give her right now. But, she needs some nourishment while fighting off whatever is going on with her.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey is right about the antibiotics. t could be that she has several things going on... that often is the case.
What most people don't understand, that don't have a lot of experience with birds, is that once you notice they are sick,they are really, really sick. As a natural defense to predators in the wild, sick birds act ok to avoid being the target and potential dinner for a predator.
I can't stress enough how critical it is that you get some food into Elvira NOW. She probably hasn't been eating much for more than the nine days you've noticed she's been sick.
Pidgey's right, she may be on her way out but as long as she's alive, there's hope.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Strange thing, I just gave her the pill for today. She had seeds in the back of her mouth???? 

She is definitely jumping around more today but no change in her poo... I am going to ask at the feed store if they know of anyone close by. I have not found anyone on the shore that knows anyone with pigeons. Also, since my earlier post, I going to ask about a bird vet, lots of chickens around here. Also going to stop by one of the largest chicken producers and ask them also.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Well I just called around, no vet....


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you know how to check her crop for food? Generally, do you offer your birds grit?


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Charis said:


> Do you know how to check her crop for food?


No. 

The birds have red grit. Elvira hasn't had any for the last week tho...

I am going to call the vet back at 14:00 (when she is in) and specifically ask her for Baytril. She treats my dogs so maybe she will let me have some.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A lot of times, you're just on your own. Many of the rehabbers just figure that's the way it's going to be and get on down the road. Others have easy access to good vets but that just doesn't seem to be the norm.

It is possible that the Dacoxine will do the job or even keep the bird holding her own. If it is, in fact, Paratyphoid, then it'd be better to switch to the Baytril to completely clear the organism from the bird's system. My general impression is that Furaltadone is okay for clearing an enteric version of the disease (Paratyphoid) but it's the world's best at tracking the stuff down systemically. It's kinda' hard to say as that stuff is a milky mess with an "off" color. Usually, urine flows retrograde into their intestines where the water is reclaimed, leaving the white residue as the actual kidney output. When that much water continues to flow out, the bird's trying to flush the kidneys or intestines.

Also, one of the things that you may be seeing by way of that poop is that the urates might be a little green, which can signal liver or kidney problems. 

It's a little bit on the odd side that there were seeds in the back of her throat from the standpoint that... couldn't she swallow them? That bothers me a little bit.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jack, another thing you can feed your little hen is soaked dry cat or dog food pellets. Put them in hot water - I use just enough water to cover the dry pellets with about 1/4 inch above that and let them soak about an hour. If any water is left, drain it off. After they are soft, but not mushy, you can split one into halves, or quarters, depending on the size and open her beak, put a piece at the time at the back of her throat and she will swallow them. I would try to feed her at least 5-10 pieces every couple of hours


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Its going to be a couple more hours before I can get out to the store and back with "rice cereal". Would "cream of wheat" or grits work?


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Jack, another thing you can feed your little hen is soaked dry cat or dog food pellets. Put them in hot water - I use just enough water to cover the dry pellets with about 1/4 inch above that and let them soak about an hour. If any water is left, drain it off. After they are soft, but not mushy, you can split one into halves, or quarters, depending on the size and open her beak, put a piece at the time at the back of her throat and she will swallow them. I would try to feed her at least 5-10 pieces every couple of hours


I can do that! Got "high grade" dog pellets. Size of rabbit pellets.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Are you sure seeds in the back of her throat are seeds? Could they be yellow bumps?
Maggie is right to bring up the soaked cat or dog food as an option. Please be sure to discard any unused, soaked pieces and prepare fresh every time. Only feed when the crop is empty as it's not good to add more food to food already in the crop.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Charis said:


> Are you sure seeds in the back of her throat are seeds? Could they be yellow bumps?
> Maggie is right to bring up the soaked cat or dog food as an option. Please be sure to discard any unused, soaked pieces and prepare fresh every time. Only feed when the crop is empty as it's not good to add more food to food already in the crop.


definitely seeds, safflower seed


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

jack1747 said:


> No.
> 
> The birds have red grit. Elvira hasn't had any for the last week tho...
> 
> I am going to call the vet back at 14:00 (when she is in) and specifically ask her for Baytril. She treats my dogs so maybe she will let me have some.


I'll bet that you feel bomb-barded by us and I'm sorry about that.
The crop is just a bit below the throat and kind of like a balloon. It fills up when the bird eats and if you gently massage it, you should be able to feel the seeds, if the bird has been eating them. If the bird is drinking a lot of water, you'll be able to feel the liquid.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Charis said:


> I'll bet that you feel bomb-barded by us and I'm sorry about that.


No, on the contrary. I wouldn't have the foggest without your help. I would have bet money six months ago that I wouldn't be hand feeding a pigeon right now.  I am learning something new everyday thanks to this forum.... 

Elvira is not going to pass.. Not with all this help!


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

The vet was no help.. Just said the "I dont do birds". I have ordered the drugs listed here. Fed Elvira some dog food earlier today and then the rice cereal tonight. Took this pic just now and she is standing on one foot! I am thinking thats good. She is more active than in the last days.... But the poo is about the same.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jack, she is looking much better - bright-eyed and alert - although the poop is still pretty runny. Hopefully the meds will be in soon.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Baytril will be here today. We have been hand feeding her a rotation or dog food and rice cereal. Last night Elvira was putting up a fight when we were trying to feed her. Later she ate a few seeds. I gave her some red grit and she really dug into it. Ate a few pieces and threw the rest all over the place. Her poo has change. There is more bulk to it. I guess cause of us feeding her. You guys were right she was straving to death. I can see a difference in her and how much more active she is now. She is still passing a lot of fluid. It has changed also. The fluid is clear with a little lime tint to it. Not the milky looking mess she was having. We'll see what happens with the Baytril.. I still can't believe that the vet would not give me any.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are always two possibilities for the lime coloring. One of them can be because excess bile leach out into the fluid and urates. You see that a lot when they're not eating enough and there's a little pat of dark green bile sitting in a puddle of urine or urates. Amongst other things, the bile is similar to soap in that it helps break down fats and oils. So, that stuff will leach. And that's how you often see the poop go--the plop of the stuff starts out more regular looking and then when you come back later, there's an awful greenish stain that's soaked into the newspaper (or whatever) that it's landed on.

The other reason for yellow to greenish urates is a buildup of biliverdin. Biliverdin is a green pigment that comes from a breakdown of hemoglobin and we mostly start seeing it in the poops (which are really a combination of urine and actual poop) when there's some kind of liver or kidney disease.

Pidgey


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Ok! The first Baytril is in... Is there anything I should know, like dont feed, with feed, ok to feed after an hour, etc.? The bottle says 1 pill twice a day. I have not fed Elvira this afternoon because I read to give the Baytril on a empty crop. Is it ok to feed her in say an hour after giving the pill?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What does it say about the pills--how many milligrams of medicine is in the pill?

Pidgey


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

7.5 MG Label says to treat for 14 days


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Any idea what Elvira weighs? That sounds pretty close to right for a homer but if her weight's down a lot then we might want to adjust it a little bit. Normally, you'd be at 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID and the older entry was always just a straight 15 mg/kg, PO, BID. For a 500 gram bird, or 1/2 of a kilogram, that'd be 7.5 milligrams or one pill, orally, twice daily. If she's a little lighter than that, you'd just stay with it. If she's a lot lighter than that, we might rather go for a half pill, twice daily.

Pidgey


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

I will weigh her.. Right now I am concerned about feeding her tonight. If we need to give her a pill on an empty crop, she won't get any food until late morning tomorrow.


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

she weigh's 15 oz's


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not a problem--give the pill and then the food.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

jack1747 said:


> she weigh's 15 oz's


About 425 grams, or almost half a kilogram. Give her the whole pill, twice daily, for the next two weeks.

Pidgey


----------



## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

Just wanted to let everyone know, Elvira is recovering nicely. She is eating and things seem to be working correctly again. Thanks for everyones help.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad to hear it, thanks for letting us know.


----------

