# Beak and Feather Disese/Circovirus?



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Little Lulu. the underdeveloped wood pigeon with an overgrown beak , has been with me for two weeks now and we have visited the vet twice, but although the vet was pleased with her progress Ifeel there has been little change.

Neither the vet nor I were completely convinced that the yellow plaque at the top of her mouth was canker. It disappeared after a course of metronidazole, but then a yellow deposit reappeared. I cleared it away with a Q tip which showed traces of blood on it.

I took her back to the vet because she kept her eyes closed most of the time, as if it hurt to open them, and told him I worried about chlamydia. He prescribes Aureomycin .

The vet thought paratyphoid was a possibility but didn't want to put her on Baytril because of the growth implications, but I started her on Baytril a few days ago because she was sneezing and her eyes were running.

Today she lost all the flight feathers off one wing. I examined them and they look broken at the shaft. Her sibling, Gannet, is still with Diana but she says that he lost all his tail feathers suddenly. 

So with Lulu we have an overgrown beak, plaque or canker on the roof of her mouth, feather loss. She has not developed any feathers on the sides of her body, nor has her taile developed proper feathrs. Also has watery painful eyes , sneezing and lack of activity.

Her poops and appetite are good and she is increasing slowly in weight.

I know that pigeons can get a Circovirus that is similar to Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease and I am wondering whether this is what she has got.

http://www.petplace.com/birds/psittacine-beak-and-feather-disease/page1.aspx

Cynthia

PS . The flying vet mentions that another symptom is yellow exudate at the beak margins, which Lulu also has.

The treatment is on-going good care, treatment of secondary diseases and the use of probiotics.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

How is that treated Cynthia? Poor Lulu!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm pretty sure that I've got some good stuff on that as well as pictures of the presentation in the new books at the house (Clinical Avian Medicine). I don't remember that they actually had a treatment for it, though, sad to say. I also think the overall prognosis is pretty bad. In my mind I can see the pictures of the fairly young squabs with no flight feathers at all. I just can't remember what else it did and how bad it got. I will try to look at lunchtime though (one hour).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, all the vet has to do to really confirm that the yellow plaques are canker is to take a dry cotton swab, wet it (tap water will actually work) and then swab the lesion. Just roll the swab on a slide and try to milk out a single drop. Put a coverslip over it and examine at 100x (the 10x objective). If they're there, you will see movements of things that tend to shimmy a lot. Then you can home in on them and re-examine at 400x. Sometimes they travel in straight lines but usually just seem to swim in circles or wiggle in place. There're video links at Vonda's page on finches and fecal smears at:

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

I think you could probably see them with the one you and John got.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pidgie,

There should be no trichomonads to identify at present, because prior to her arrival here Lulu was treated with Carnidazole and then with Metronidazole.

I added the treatment recommended by the flying vet as a PS in my original post, it the provision of on-going good care, appropriate treatment of secondary diseases to enable the bird to live long enough for the damaged immune system to repair or partially repair itself, and the use of probiotics.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cynthia,

Have you tried all the natural stuff? 

When bird presents itself with so many issues, and is just not thriving I would get my arsenal of nutrition out, unless you have already done so.

The probiotics is a good start, as is ACV in the water. Alfalfa tabs, 1/4 of a human dose, garlic capsule-one a day, to purify the blood and as a general antibiotic and will help with feather growth and build the immune system. Reishi as another great natural antibiotic, also good support for the liver if there is a toxic liver or liver damage, turmeric also would be good for that, Neem oil for anything inflammatory going on and as an anti viral. Also, I would put a drop of colloidal silver in each eye, as that may be all that is needed there.

I wouldn't hestate to give this bird some superior anti-oxidents (Stabilized DHLA) to enable overall support against any free radicals, and it is a potent anti-cancer. 

If you suspect Paratyphoid you can try that new VBG avian powder with carvacrol in it.

I would use these products over the medication if you don't have any actual diagnosis.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Poor Lulu, 

I am sending positive thoughts for this little bird.

Poor little girl.

Tania xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Trees. Half the products I have never heard of, but I have colloidal silver (it worked wonders on Wedgewood's infected eye socket!), garlic pearls and ACV, so I will start those now. I will try to track down the rest.

Thanks Tania. Little Lulu is a real darling, she must be over 6 weeks old but still is a baby with baby beak and bug eyes.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Little Lulu today*

Lulu is at least 6 weeks old.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I took pictures of a couple of pages on the circovirus to email to you. One has pictures of pigeons with it. There is another section that's all text which had a small section on the disease in pigeons. Often, it doesn't bother the feathers in columbiformes but that doesn't mean that it's not going to as the picture illustrates. However, one of the things that it may do is go after the immune system and so more birds die of secondary infections than the virus itself. I didn't read anything about treatment options but one text mentioned that a lot of domestic pigeons in Europe are actually infected but only a few come down with clinical disease. Email me at the normal address with whichever email address of yours you want me to send the stuff to. Unfortunately, the picture with the pictures on it isn't crystal clear and I'll have to take another later to resend but it's good enough for you to get an idea of the normal pattern of feather loss due to circovirus. There was one mention, though, about a presentation where only the tail feathers are lost so that's kind of interesting about LuLu's sibling.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Poor Lulu...she does look unhappy!

I sure hope you can turn her "around," Cynthia!

Sending WARM HEALING HUGS and THOUGHTS TO ALL!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am back from the vet's, he examined Lulu's discarded feathers under a microscope and thought that all her problems could be caused by a Vitamin A deficiency...he read the symptoms from the book and they matched! This isn't definite but I think it is more likely than circovirus and I prefer the prognosis, so I will give ger supplements and hope for an improvement in a week or so!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Now that would be far better! Here's hopin'!

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SURE HOPE SO, Cynthia! Fingers and toes all crossed...

LOVE AND HUGS TO YOU AND LULU!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the good wishes. I did a google search for vitamin A deficiency and it sounds pretty grim! Still, we do our best, keep positive and lavish them with love!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How grim, Cynthia?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> How grim, Cynthia?


http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/vitamina.htm

Our rural vets just don't seem to have the resources or diagnostic and testing facilities that your US vets have. The large surgeries refuse to deal with birds at all and the smaller ones just have the minimum supplies of medicines available, the usually have to put in an order if something other than synulox is required.

The one time I had a fecal test done it took two or three weeks for the results to come through by which time the pigeon was dead. Not that the fecal showed anything, anyway!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Some time ago, I got a liquid vitamin supplement to give to Unie in her water. It has a real high quantity of Vitamin A in it. Since Vitamin A is one of those that's not water-soluable and can actually be a poison when it's overdone, I've always been a bit scared to give it to her on a regular basis. Sounds like LuLu could use some, though.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Little Lulu died on my lap this morning. I am heartbroken.

Yesterday I was brought an enormous, beautifully feathered wood pigeon. He looked like what Lulu should have grown up to be. He had no visible injuriues of obvious symptoms of sickness other than that he was picked up from a traffickless area, unable to walk or fly. He died within minutes of arrival,

I have put Lulu in a little Wooden castket, wrapped in a soft lace shroud. I will bury her next to Cho Cho Chan.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cynthia,

I'm so sorry to hear about LuLu. 

...and also the newly arrived wood pigeon.  

I know you did everything you could for them. 

My thoughts and prayers are with you and sending a BIG hug too!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Trees. I am at that stage where my mind is circling round and round wondering what I could have done different.

Poor Lulu was always so ill, I so wanted to see her start to enjoy life and I thought we could get there.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> Thanks Trees. I am at that stage where my mind is circling round and round wondering what I could have done different.
> 
> Poor Lulu was always so ill, I so wanted to see her start to enjoy life and I thought we could get there.
> Cynthia


Cynthia,

I know you wanted the best for LuLu, but maybe the little one just didn't have the strength & energy to fight all the issues she may have had. You did your best, and that is all you can do.

Hope the rest of your day is better.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I feel for you, too, Cynthia.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia,

I am very sorry to hear this news about Lulu and the other bird as well. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Ron


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I am so sorry Cynthia you lost Lulu and the other wood pigeon.
It is heartbreaking to care for needy pigeons that eventually don't make it.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ah, Cynthia, I am so sorry. Sometimes those of us who rehab go through rough spots but it sure doesn't make it any easier. I can grieve for one that died within minutes of getting it as well as one we've had for awhile, so I know how hard it is for you right now. Know that we are all thinking of you.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I just read about Lulu and your other pigeon, Cynthia. 

I am just so sorry. I've been following her thread hoping she would make it.

COMFORTING HUGS AND HEALING THOUGHTS !!! 

With love,
Shi


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Cynthia, I'm sure sorry about Lulu and the new pijie. It's so hard when you have those "what else could I have done?" thoughts running through your head.  Try to take comfort in knowing you did all you could. I hope the rest of you day gets better.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry for the losses, Cynthia. I truly do know how it just guts you at times .. most of the time, in fact. Big hugs to you!

Terry


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Cynthia,

So sorry about Lulu....this loss sounds like such a heartbreak for you. As Terry said, I guess they all break your heart a little.

Linda


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Cynthia, just wanted to add my condolences. This is so sad, losing Lulu after all your efforts, and having the newly arrived wood pigeon die also. You do such good work supporting the needy birds in your area. Sorry these two were too far gone for you to save.


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