# Bad Feed



## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Has anyone ever fed seed that had gone bad or was moldy and didnt know it? If so, what did it do to the birds and what symptoms were they showing.......Thanks


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Moldy seed can make birds very sick. One of our members lost all of her pigeons, when the seed got wet, molded and was feed to them by her neighbor who was watching them while she was away.

What symptoms are your birds showing?

Here's an article.

http://birding.about.com/od/birdfeeders/a/Can-Birdseed-Go-Bad.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's a good article Charis.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have opened bags of feed with worms in them (kinda hard to prevent sometimes if they hatch in the bag), dusty feed with a lot of "trash" in it, and feed that just smelled old and stale. But have yet to find any molded, thankfully.

Although I did have an episode with my birds once when our pond and creek flooded. I don't know if you were around PT at the time I posted about it. The water got in the aviary and spoiled what little feed I guess was still in there (usually they don't have any or much left over). Totally unexpected, but it rained a LOT. Took a few days for anything to happen. Obviously I didn't see any feed on the ground the next morning after the flood - guess they ate it. Well, almost all of the birds in the aviary got fungal infections in their crops that caused stasis. I couldn't pick them up without them gushing water out of their beaks, and they would throw up any seed they ate. At first I thought canker, but after cutting one of the dead birds open, we found a nasty thick, sticky green gunk in the crop. Looked like grass...pudding? Gross. A lot of them died but I did manage to save some of them with ACV shock treatments and only giving them access to food twice a day, very little amounts at a time. It was horrible and depressed me for about a week. They were my breeders (I have the worst luck with breeders aparently).


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

I had been feeding pellets, and when I started giving seed again (the same seed I had sitting in a plastic trashcan in a hot garage for about a month) the birds started looking like they werent feeling good and the droppings got a little runny.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Becky, and yes, I have a bird with a crop that wont empty


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Changes in feed can stress their systems out temporarily, giving them funky droppings for a couple days. But other than that, shouldn't cause any problem. Did you have the can up off the floor a bit so air could get under it? Sometimes it can sweat and make it hard to keep the feed dry. We keep ours in metal trashcans  I was wondering if I was the only one feeding the birds "garbage", LOL


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Changes in feed can stress their systems out temporarily, giving them funky droppings for a couple days. But other than that, shouldn't cause any problem. Did you have the can up off the floor a bit so air could get under it? Sometimes it can sweat and make it hard to keep the feed dry. We keep ours in metal trashcans  I was wondering if I was the only one feeding the birds "garbage", LOL


I reintroduced the seed gradually and the more seed I fed, the worse the conditions got?


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have opened bags of feed with worms in them (kinda hard to prevent sometimes if they hatch in the bag), dusty feed with a lot of "trash" in it, and feed that just smelled old and stale. But have yet to find any molded, thankfully.
> 
> Although I did have an episode with my birds once when our pond and creek flooded. I don't know if you were around PT at the time I posted about it. The water got in the aviary and spoiled what little feed I guess was still in there (usually they don't have any or much left over). Totally unexpected, but it rained a LOT. Took a few days for anything to happen. Obviously I didn't see any feed on the ground the next morning after the flood - guess they ate it. Well, almost all of the birds in the aviary got fungal infections in their crops that caused stasis. I couldn't pick them up without them gushing water out of their beaks, and they would throw up any seed they ate. At first I thought canker, but after cutting one of the dead birds open, we found a nasty thick, sticky green gunk in the crop. Looked like grass...pudding? Gross. A lot of them died but I did manage to save some of them with ACV shock treatments and only giving them access to food twice a day, very little amounts at a time. It was horrible and depressed me for about a week. They were my breeders (I have the worst luck with breeders aparently).


I dont think I was a member of PT at that time, but I do remember reading the thread. I will have to go back and re read it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

SouthTown Racers said:


> I reintroduced the seed gradually and the more seed I fed, the worse the conditions got?


Yeah that definitely sounds fishy! Weaning them off of one feed to another usually helps them a ton.
Do you see anything physically wrong with the feed? I can't describe how it's supposed to smell but that could be another indicator. If in doubt, throw it out!


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yeah that definitely sounds fishy! Weaning them off of one feed to another usually helps them a ton.
> Do you see anything physically wrong with the feed? I can't describe how it's supposed to smell but that could be another indicator. If in doubt, throw it out!


Already tossed! I'm just trying to make sure that was the problem. It looked normal, but I was reading in Dr. Walkers book that the seed can be odorless, invisable, and tastless but can still be bad and toxic.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Good call  I would definitely get them on some ACV and some garlic too. ACV would help prevent canker and bacteria stuff that may have gotten in them via the seed. Garlic does that too but is also anti-fungal.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Changes in feed can stress their systems out temporarily, giving them funky droppings for a couple days. But other than that, shouldn't cause any problem. Did you have the can up off the floor a bit so air could get under it? Sometimes it can sweat and make it hard to keep the feed dry. We keep ours in metal trashcans  I was wondering if I was the only one feeding the birds "garbage", LOL


I also keep my feed in metal trashcans, so I guess my birds are "trash fed." At first I kept it in plastic airtight bins, but found that a squirrel can chew through a plastic bin in less than an hour!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ptras said:


> I also keep my feed in metal trashcans, so I guess my birds are "trash fed." At first I kept it in plastic airtight bins, but found that a squirrel can chew through a plastic bin in less than an hour!


Oh wow  Squirrels and everything else used to be able to get in our bins, but we upgraded (not much of a change, just matching lids for once) to our current ones and the lids stay on tight, so nothing can push it off anymore.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A heavy rock or brick on top helps too.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> A heavy rock or brick on top helps too.


Didn't help me. The squirrel chewed right through the bottom corner of the plastic bin.


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## umaximus (Nov 12, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have opened bags of feed with worms in them (kinda hard to prevent sometimes if they hatch in the bag), dusty feed with a lot of "trash" in it, and feed that just smelled old and stale. But have yet to find any molded, thankfully.
> 
> Although I did have an episode with my birds once when our pond and creek flooded. I don't know if you were around PT at the time I posted about it. The water got in the aviary and spoiled what little feed I guess was still in there (usually they don't have any or much left over). Totally unexpected, but it rained a LOT. Took a few days for anything to happen. Obviously I didn't see any feed on the ground the next morning after the flood - guess they ate it. Well, almost all of the birds in the aviary got fungal infections in their crops that caused stasis. I couldn't pick them up without them gushing water out of their beaks, and they would throw up any seed they ate. At first I thought canker, but after cutting one of the dead birds open, we found a nasty thick, sticky green gunk in the crop. Looked like grass...pudding? Gross. A lot of them died but I did manage to save some of them with ACV shock treatments and only giving them access to food twice a day, very little amounts at a time. It was horrible and depressed me for about a week. They were my breeders (I have the worst luck with breeders aparently).


Do not feel bad, friend. Your story reminds me of my 2010 experience. Adeno-virus hit my loft and it sucks to see the birds go from top form to thin and then nothing. You have a different situation than mine but don't be discourage. Everything will be fine. Best of luck to your loft and you!


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Now I am starting to wonder if I am doing the right thing.
We usually make bulk trips to buy the feed and usually buy at least 100 if not 150 pounds at a time.

I also store it in my un climate controlled garage in a metal trash can with a tight fitting metal lid.
It is out of direct sunlight and it still cooler in there than outside. But it will get into the eighty's in there when it's 100 degrees outside.

With the amount of birds I have right now it takes usually over a month to empty the trash can.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ptras said:


> Didn't help me. The squirrel chewed right through the bottom corner of the plastic bin.


LOL. I meant on the metal containers, as sometimes the covers are not exactly tight fitting. Squirrels on horrible for chewing through plastic containers. I have more barrels outside with no covers.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kalkbl said:


> Now I am starting to wonder if I am doing the right thing.
> We usually make bulk trips to buy the feed and usually buy at least 100 if not 150 pounds at a time.
> 
> I also store it in my un climate controlled garage in a metal trash can with a tight fitting metal lid.
> ...



I think the way you are storing it is fine for that amount of time. I mean, you can't really store it in the house with A.C.. Even the bags you buy from the grain place where you buy it, don't keep it in air conditioning. And who knows how long it sits there? Can't be any worse in your garage.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> I think the way you are storing it is fine for that amount of time. I mean, you can't really store it in the house with A.C.. Even the bags you buy from the grain place where you buy it, don't keep it in air conditioning. And who knows how long it sits there? Can't be any worse in your garage.


Agreed. Mine is kept in a lean-to shed off the side of my loft. It goes below 0 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter, and got up to 103 degrees two weeks ago. As long as it stays dry, temperature shifts shouldn't bother it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You're not sure it is the seed causing problems. But actually, even if we do all we can to store it properly and keep it safe, we have no idea of what could have gotten into it before it was even packaged, or after. How's that for a scary thought? Rodents even get in where they package food for human consumption. How many recalls have they had because rodents or something else got into our food in the plant where they package it? So it isn't always something that we are doing wrong. We can only take care of what we can control. Other than that, and it's out of our hands. I try to be careful of where I buy my feeds, but still.....................


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

ptras said:


> Agreed. Mine is kept in a lean-to shed off the side of my loft. It goes below 0 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter, and got up to 103 degrees two weeks ago. As long as it stays dry, temperature shifts shouldn't bother it.


I disagree with you. I have been talking to a lot of people since this topic has come up. When the seed heats up to 103 and then cools to 75 at night, the seed already holds moisture and then the temp change can create condinsation = mold spores. I don't know for sure but it maes sense.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> I disagree with you. I have been talking to a lot of people since this topic has come up. When the seed heats up to 103 and then cools to 75 at night, the seed already holds moisture and then the temp change can create condinsation = mold spores. I don't know for sure but it maes sense.


Growth of mold or mildew requires a certain amount or percentage of moisture. The moisture in my feed trashcan is only what is contained in the feed itself. Temperature changes do not cause condensation within that barrel, so I do not have a problem with spoilage.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't get any condensation in my barrels either.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Me either. I have one can outside beside the YB loft, and the other two are in a building (which has a wire front so doesn't do much for temp control, LOL). Haven't had a problem.


Yeah we used to put bricks and stuff on top of the lids with our old barrels but sometimes I would forget to put it back on.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't mean so much moisture tha the seed is wet or there are drops inside of the can. My point is that hot and humid weather isn't good for seed kept in a building that isn't climate controled...........I'm guessing because after changing the feed the past 2 days, my birds droppings are back to normal


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They don't use climate control where you buy the seed.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> They don't use climate control where you buy the seed.


I agree. My feed and grain store keeps pigeon food in a barn attached to the back of the retail store. When I go to pick up feed on a sunny day (even in the winter), it is like walking into a sauna.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't believe they use climate control where they mix and package the feed either.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> I think if you're serious about winning pigeon races and breeding 100% healthy birds for one loft races, and just being a good fancier and keeping your birds healthly, the best route is to keep your feed climate controlled. The place I buy my feed at is climate controlled, I wouldn't buy it from anywhere that wasn't. As for the packaging part, I guess we can only get it as best we can to the bag. There are many articles and books with chapters dedicated to the "proper" storing of one of the most important things we literally put inside our pigeons.
> 
> It's easy & simple - Find a place in your home out of the way and store your feed in a few plastic bins. We know that variations in climate can affect the feed in a negative way, which can make your birds sick - Why take a chance?
> 
> ...


My aren't we smug.

Where, may I ask, are you buying pigeon feed from a climate controlled feed store? Even if the store itself is climate controlled, I highly doubt they are climate controlling their warehouse. If they are, I would really like to know about this place. Do they buy their grain only from climate controlled farms? Are the grains shipped to them in climate controlled trucks? And...did you audit them to make sure the grains don't sit on the loading dock too long?

I do store food in non-climate controlled areas, and never have problems eating it. In addition, you assume that everyone's home is also climate controlled. The day we had 103 degrees, it was 90 inside my home. The only way my pigeon feed is going to be climate controlled, is if I keep it in my bedroom - not going to happen!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ptras said:


> My aren't we smug.
> 
> Where, may I ask, are you buying pigeon feed from a climate controlled feed store? Even if the store itself is climate controlled, I highly doubt they are climate controlling their warehouse. If they are, I would really like to know about this place. Do they buy their grain only from climate controlled farms? Are the grains shipped to them in climate controlled trucks? And...did you audit them to make sure the grains don't sit on the loading dock too long?
> 
> I do store food in non-climate controlled areas, and never have problems eating it. In addition, you assume that everyone's home is also climate controlled. The day we had 103 degrees, it was 90 inside my home.* The only way my pigeon feed is going to be climate controlled, is if I keep it in my bedroom - not going to happen!*






LOL. Just what I was thinking. Come on guys, I don't believe anyone knows of anywhere whose warehouse is climate controlled. We have no idea of how it was handled or what has gotten into it before we buy it. We can only do the best we can with it when we get it. If it looks or smells dusty or musty or dirty, we would of course ditch it. Other than that, not much we can do unfortunately. I'm sure some don't even keep it in a clean dry area. And some that have used it even if it has gotten wet or damp, or if rodents have gotten into it. Shame on them. Most of us take the best care of our birds that we can. What else can we do?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SouthTown Racers, you can't be sure that your seed was the problem. Maybe just a coincidence. Don't know. But I'm glad their are getting back to normal. How is the one whose crop is not emptying. Does he have any other symptoms of illness?


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

All Im saying is that as soon as the seed was suspect, it was thrown in the trash. With new seed and better storage, the birds have turned around and are back to normal. I didnt think ProPigeon was being smug. He was only pointing out what he does to provide the best possible health to our birds.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> SouthTown Racers, you can't be sure that your seed was the problem. Maybe just a coincidence. Don't know. But I'm glad their are getting back to normal. How is the one whose crop is not emptying. Does he have any other symptoms of illness?


That one Im still watching close. I have them on a anti-fungal and I will check his crop in the morning (fingers crossed)


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> SouthTown Racers, you can't be sure that your seed was the problem. Maybe just a coincidence. Don't know. But I'm glad their are getting back to normal. How is the one whose crop is not emptying. Does he have any other symptoms of illness?


Ive been trying to single out the seed as the problem this week. As soon as I would add the seed to the pellets, the droppings would go bad. Take the seed out and droppings back to normal. Then I bought new seed and mixed it half and half with the pellets....droppings perfect this morning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Ive been trying to single out the seed as the problem this week. As soon as I would add the seed to the pellets, the droppings would go bad. Take the seed out and droppings back to normal. Then I bought new seed and mixed it half and half with the pellets....droppings perfect this morning.


Well, it may have been your feed. Bad feed can be very bad for birds. I hope they stay healthy now, and that one with the crop problem is well again soon. You were smart to get rid of it and start them on new.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Not to stir the pot but:
> 
> http://www.ybarh.com/
> 
> ...


Well then, I'm impressed with them. And you do know of a place with climate control. My apologies. But few of us are blessed with a place that does that, and not everyone has their home on central air conditioning. So it really isn't possible to do that. And as far as keeping it in the house, I did that years ago with a bag of birdseed, and those damn moths had laid eggs that hatched in the bag. When I opened it up, they flew out and all over the place. I do not even want to go into how hard they were to eradicate, and how long it took. So I'm sure many do not want to do that, or don't have the room. I have been keeping the pigeon feed inside, in a tight container, but if the same ever happens with it, it's going back out! Besides, I don't have central Air, so it get pretty warm inside where it is stored also. Nothing I can do about that. But I do store the feed for the wild birds outside, and haven't seen any problems. And when I do pick up extra for my pigeons, outside is where I have to store it.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Changes in feed can stress their systems out temporarily, giving them funky droppings for a couple days. But other than that, shouldn't cause any problem. Did you have the can up off the floor a bit so air could get under it? Sometimes it can sweat and make it hard to keep the feed dry. We keep ours in metal trashcans  I was wondering if I was the only one feeding the birds "garbage", LOL


Mary - I keep my feed in metal trash cans as well but when the secretary of the racing club came over to visit last week he said I should never use metal trash cans to store feed. Has anybody else heard any problems with using a galvanized metal trash can for food storage or is this just an old wives tale? I've been doing it for years and haven't noticed any problems with my birds, also have a feeder that is made of sheet metal? I don't use metal waterers as I think there could be certain medications that could react with metal so I prefer plastic on that but had never heard of a problem with metal for feed storage or feeders?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. I have heard that the lead that is used in galvanized metal can leach out into the feed or water. I wouldn't use a metal waterer for this reason, but I do use a galvanized feeder, which I love, as they don't throw the seed around with it as they did with others. I don't think anything much is going to leach out of a dry feeder anyway, as I would think it would with water. The feed is kept in the bags in the galvanize container though, so I would think it was safe.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I spent the majority of my life on a farm, and I would venture to say, that all the seeds we feed our pigeons, has be allowed to dry after harvest, in a galvanized grain bin. Just look at the feed stores, they all keep their bulk feed in galvanized bins. Water may be a different story.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have never heard not to store feed in metal bins. You can use it for water as long as you don't put anything in the water, like ACV for example, which will corrode it and the toxic stuff will get in there. I use galvanized pans for their baths, which I will put stuff in there, but it's only in the loft long enough for everyone to bathe, so I don't think that's long enough to cause a problem. My dad said it was okay, and I trust him, LOL


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I was trying to come up with a good solution to the Missouri humid climate, and it hit me as I put my varmint rifle back in the safe. I think an old deep freezer, a sealed wooden box, or something the likes, would be great for feed with a dehumidifier for gun safes. I have been eyeballing this one for my safe, maybe Santa will bring me one...

http://www.goldenroddehumidifiers.com/introduction.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A sealed wooden box would be perfect, if rodents wouldn't chew through it.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Not to stir the pot but:
> 
> http://www.ybarh.com/
> 
> ...


What do they charge for a 50 pound bag of Checker?

How much to ship a bag to Missouri in a climate controlled truck?


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Yes. I have heard that the lead that is used in galvanized metal can leach out into the feed or water. I wouldn't use a metal waterer for this reason, but I do use a galvanized feeder, which I love, as they don't throw the seed around with it as they did with others. I don't think anything much is going to leach out of a dry feeder anyway, as I would think it would with water. The feed is kept in the bags in the galvanize container though, so I would think it was safe.


Galvanizing is done with zinc, not lead, either by electroplating or through a hot-dipping process. The FDA has determined that there is no risk from contact of zinc with dry foods, but do advise not to use zinc coated materials for liquids that are acidic.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ptras said:


> Galvanizing is done with zinc, not lead, either by electroplating or through a hot-dipping process. The FDA has determined that there is no risk from contact of zinc with dry foods, but do advise not to use zinc coated materials for liquids that are acidic.


Thanks. That's great to know. I was told that it had zinc and lead and that it was dangerous for the birds because it could leach out of the metal.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

ptras said:


> What do they charge for a 50 pound bag of Checker?
> 
> How much to ship a bag to Missouri in a climate controlled truck?


well considering Checkers are made in Gray Summit, MO And ProPigeon lives in St. Louis MO, maybe 30 miles or less, I would say not much.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Thunderbird Racing said:


> well considering Checkers are made in Gray Summit, MO And ProPigeon lives in St. Louis MO, maybe 30 miles or less, I would say not much.


He has stated that he gets his feed from this feed store: http://www.ybarh.com/ which is in Olathe Kansas. He lives in St. Louise Missouri. That's more like 270 miles. I was just wondering what they get to ship a bag of Checker to him. I buy Checker at my local (non-climate controlled) feed store for $15.00 per bag.


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Well I bought 2 bags of European supreme 4 days ago.
He cut the shrink wrap off the pallet to give me them, supposedly just came in.
As before they were put into metal trash can with lid in my garage,
Just went out to get feed took the lid off and found like 7-8 little moths flying around in the can. Just cost me 40 bucks for the feed.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Reread my post Ptras, I never said I get my feed from YBARH, I was simply showing Jay3 that there are feed stores with climate contolled feed rooms. You and Jay3 both said NO feed stores, have climate controlled storage, and I proved that not to be the case with the YBARH example. I'm not trying to be smug or anything and Jay3 has already replied and moved on, you are still stuck on this.
> 
> I don't know how much the Purina Checkers cost, because I don't feed it to my birds. I feed a Des Moines mix and supplement with Purina Green and Gold pellets. But none of this matters and I'm not sure what you want to prove with your questions...
> 
> ...


Oh please, please, please tell me who they are. I just *live *for the opportunity to call up and bother feed stores! And I'm sure that they have never been bothered with questions before - please let me be the first!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kalkbl said:


> Well I bought 2 bags of European supreme 4 days ago.
> He cut the shrink wrap off the pallet to give me them, supposedly just came in.
> As before they were put into metal trash can with lid in my garage,
> Just went out to get feed took the lid off and found like 7-8 little moths flying around in the can. Just cost me 40 bucks for the feed.


This happens. We have no way of knowing what has gotten into the feed before we get it, or even before the feed store gets it. Don't ya just hate when that happens.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> This happens. We have no way of knowing what has gotten into the feed before we get it, or even before the feed store gets it. Don't ya just hate when that happens.


 I think this happens to just about every feed store in heat waves like most places are having now , those thing hit our grains probably even before they are bagged .


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