# ashred--recessive red



## mike699 (Mar 28, 2009)

can someone please tell how to tell the difference between these two colors. ive got birds that have the ash gray tail and ones that are red and white, id like to know how i know if its recessive. and is recessive red the same as bronze or a different color all together.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Basically, that is the difference*



mike699 said:


> can someone please tell how to tell the difference between these two colors. ive got birds that have the ash gray tail and ones that are red and white, id like to know how i know if its recessive. and is recessive red the same as bronze or a different color all together.


The ashy gray tails are the ash reds and the red or red and white tails should be your recessive reds. There is alot more to it than this but that's the basic idea of how they are.

Recessive red pigeons are all another color underneath and it can be ash red. These are typically your best looking recessive reds. The bronzes are modifiers that can intensify the color of recessive reds or ash reds.

Ash red pigeons can be enhanced so much with bronze that you will think they are recessive reds. I just learned in the last year about some of these and I used to have them. They are so red that I always just assumed that they were recessive reds. This is not the norm however and most are fairly easy to recognize.

I used to think that recessive red was it's own color and had trouble grasping that they were always something else underneath. I had to think of it like recessive white to get my thinking straight. With that in mind, recessive red can be ash red, blue or brown as these are all of the basic colors. Only test breeding or knowing the parents can tell for sure just what they are. Sometimes having the parents is not enough as they can produce more than one base color too.

This may be a bit confusing at first but it makes sense over time.

Bill


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## mike699 (Mar 28, 2009)

bill---i currently have one pair, cock--is ressecive red with white flights and tail and pied head, the hen-- is a kite blue with the bronze with the white flights and pied head. i have only one offspring and it looks likes like the cock and is female. so im not sure how to find out what color is underneath, any suggestions? mike


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

*sexing*

just out of curiosity what method do you use for sexing the offspring? i remain utterly clueless on identifying sex of birds other that waiting to see who ends up on the bottom once they're old enough to breed. it seems like everytime i think i know i'm proven wrong


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It depends*



mike699 said:


> bill---i currently have one pair, cock--is ressecive red with white flights and tail and pied head, the hen-- is a kite blue with the bronze with the white flights and pied head. i have only one offspring and it looks likes like the cock and is female. so im not sure how to find out what color is underneath, any suggestions? mike


Depends on what you are trying to find. The baby that you produced only tells you that the kite hen is also carrying recessive red. If you ever get an ash red from this mating, you will know that the cock is ash red based. Keeping him on a blue based hen should eventually tell you what you want to know.

Blue based recessive reds do have a tendency to come out with bluish or plum colored rumps and sometimes bluish tails. If they are nice clean recessive reds, they are likely to be ash red based. None of this is proof positive but the bluish rumps are a clue when they show up.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

One way I use to sex offspring is by the colors, since I'm a color genetics nerd 
There are certain sex-linked matings that will give you a color that is always hens, and another that is always cocks.

Also, if you have an ash-red bird with black/blue or brown flecking in the tail or wings, then it's a male. The flecks are an indicator of that red bird carrying another color (blue or brown). Hens can only carry one color (the color you see), so therefore they won't have any flecking. SAYING THAT, there can be cocks WITHOUT flecking. It just means it's a pure ash-red, not carrying any other colors.

Other than those color tricks, it can be hard to tell until someone lays an egg. They like to trick us with their behavior. But one thing that has always worked pretty good for me is feeling the pelvic bones. They come down to a "V" at the vent. Hens require a space between those bones for the egg to pass. Young hens may have tight vents until they lay for the first time, but typically the bones will at least be pretty flexible. Cockbirds on the other hand, will have close, tight spaces, sometimes with the bones touching. The younger the bird, the harder to read. The males may feel like hens and the hens may feel like males, until someone's either tightens or loosens.
Still, with a bird about 3 or 4+ months old, you should be able to get a pretty good guess.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I go by appearance first*



aarongreen123 said:


> just out of curiosity what method do you use for sexing the offspring? i remain utterly clueless on identifying sex of birds other that waiting to see who ends up on the bottom once they're old enough to breed. it seems like everytime i think i know i'm proven wrong



The cocks tend to look more powerful in the head, have larger nose ceres and are typically larger than hens. Still there are those that can fool you. Youngsters are just hard to tell but within a given breed or line of birds, you will start to see subtle differences when you have one of each in front of you.

Mating is not even reliable as hens will sometimes take the top position, will breed with another hen, etc. When the hen is about to lay eggs or just has laid eggs, her pelvic bones will be spread apart and her vent area will have a soft mushy feel to it while the cocks pelvic bones tend to stay closer and have a more rigid feel. 

Cock birds tend to chase and coo at many different hens, acting quite the clowns. Hens rarely exhibit this behavior or tend to act this way much less often. Cocks exhibit the behavior very often.

There are many ways to sex and probably none of them is proof positive. The hen is the one that will set on the eggs over night when all other methods of identification have failed.

Bill


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Yep, i agree with you 100% on the Pelvic Bones for sexing. It is funny more people do not use it. My Grand Father taught me to use it when i was very Young. It takes some Practice and experience but it is Fairly accurate once you learn. As you said there are cases were you have a sloppy Cock, ect. But that is the Exception. Dave


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## mike699 (Mar 28, 2009)

bill--i thoght the female didnt carry two colors, just one---mike


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

wow guys thanks a lot for the explanations that helps a lot. i want to become a genetics nerd! i am trying to find that pigeon inheritence book for a reasonable price, i have read over sloberknocker's materials too, what else is good to study to become a genetics nerd


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Depends on what we call colors*



mike699 said:


> bill--i thoght the female didnt carry two colors, just one---mike


There are only three basic colors, ash red, blue and brown and hens can only be one of these.

They can also only be intense or dilute, same with pale or reduced. These are sex linked recessives that can be carried by the cocks and there are more of these types as well.

There are several autosomal recessives that are carried by both sexes. Recessive red, recessive white and some others are like this. Both sexes have to carry them to produce these types.

Bill


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## mike699 (Mar 28, 2009)

aaron---im no expert at all, but ive had pigeons for 35 years. i went to a guys house saturday and picked up 6 birds looking for males the guy had over a 300 pigeons and i needed all males. i ended up with all males. i can tell you that the best thing to do is just spend time with your birds and you will soon be able to pick them out. the guys here are right on the money about their charcteristics of males. its just the ability you will learn from spending time with your birds that will help you to spot one at a glance, it takes time , just dont try and speak pigeonese, its impossible, ive tried,lol---mike


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

mike
thanks a lot for the advise. i have been spending a lot of time in the loft watching the birds, having all white birds makes it harder for me i have started to keep much better records this year and this is all helping me learn more at the same time.
thanks again guys, as always great info from the locals here
aaron


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