# 1 month old pigeons



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hello, I'm a new user here and have a couple of questions on the care of my two orphaned pigeons that I've been raising for the past almost four weeks. I'm syringe feeding these two between 15 to 18 cc of exact baby bird formula two to three times a day. They are just now starting to peck at the bird seed that I am also now offering them. One of them is fully feathered now and the other one is slowly but surely getting there. When can they be put outside safely? I'm in California so the weather is not too cold this time of year. I tote them back and forth to work with me daily so that I can feed them throughout they day as time allows me too. How quickly do they actually start eating regular pigeon/bird food own their own? Thus far they seem to be doing well but as they progress my knowledge of how to care for them lessens. I'm great with orphaned babies of lots of different animals but this is my first time with adolesent pigeons. Any advice? Thanks a bunch!!


------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Cindrelli,
First of all I don't think you are feeding enough formula. From about 16 days old I feed 40mls 3 times a day. Secondly orphan pigeons are generally earlier to self feed and the earliest I have had them picking for themselves in 19 days. But all have been self feeding at 28 days, (4 weeks)
The easiest way to do this is to put an escort bird with them. If you know someone who has pigeons maybe they will be willing to lend you a bird to put with them. Youngsters learn fastest by imitation. Otherwise it's a matter of missing a meal so they get humgry and seeing if they will pick up for themselves by instinct.
Certainly by 4 weeks old they should be doing so.


----------



## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

You!









You are absolutely the best!









They are just the bestest guys!









Stand by, all the help you want is here!

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray

PS. Check your e-mail!


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Oops, I need to make a correction....I under-calculated the amount used for feeding time. They have been getting about 30-33 cc two times daily...three times if time allows me at work to squeeze in an extra meal. I thought they were eating less but I actually counted the cc's last night and this morning. I usually just feed until they look full with bulgie little crops, once I acutually counted I see they eat more than I originally stated...sorry 'bout that







. Boy , one of them sure gets demanding with the flapping wing at my hand when it's time to eat. I caught the bigger of the two splashing in their water bowl yesterday too and saw him drink a little so I know he's coming along. Hopefully the other will follow his lead. Keep the info coming you guys, I really need and appreciate it. I want to get all the knowledge I can about taking care of these two cuties.









------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It certainly sounds like your little ones are just on the verge of becoming self sufficient. If the one is drinking and one or both are pecking at seeds, then I think you will have it made in a couple of days. Just continue to offer seed and water and start to taper off the amount and/or frequency of formula feeding. You will be surprised at how quickly they catch on to feeding themselves.

Thank you so much for taking these babies in and caring for them. What is their story .. how did they become orphans, how did you get them? We love to hear pigeon stories here .. especially the ones with a happy ending like yours.

Terry Whatley


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I can't put my finger on anything to prove this but it's generally known that not feeding solid seed after a certain point in time could damage the digestive system. These babies should be on 100% seed by now. I would hand feed if they are pecking at seed but not swallowing. Feed enough to keep them going but will still keep them hungry. Don't give any sunflower seeds in the shell. They can obstruct from that because their systems are too young to break down the shells
Anyway, that's just my opinion.


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

OK.... I told a white lie in my earlier reply!.... well no, not really. I said the earliest I have got a baby pigeon to self feed is 19 days. Well the record was broken unintentionally today. I am running on five 1 month old babies in a nursery cage and I had to rescue a baby from the loft yesterday. As it was almost fully feathered I put it with the others in the nursery, but was crop feeding it. Today I have just watched it picking up food and when I felt the crop it was packed with pigeon mix. So I checked the date of birth. It is just 18 days old today. I consider that quite young to be self feeding.... but heck, it saves me a job!


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

I'm not sure exactly how they came to be at the animal hospital I work for but at the end of the day that they were brought in someone asked me to take them home to feed because they would die if someone didn't feed them through the night (they were only about 2 days old at that point)so I took them home and we've been family ever since. I've asked others at the hospital just how and why we ended up with them but nobody seems to know the exact story behind it. I'm just glad that they have survived and seem to be doing so well. They have begun to play in their water alot today. I take them to and from work with me everyday. They seem to enjoy the car ride and sit in their cage as close to me as they can get and just seem to love it when I put my fingers through the cage to pet them as I drive...probably not smart to pet and drive at the same time but I can't help myself. LOL
They both seem to be very affectionate too. I'm very glad that I took them that first night and every night since.










> Originally posted by TAWhatley:
> *It certainly sounds like your little ones are just on the verge of becoming self sufficient. If the one is drinking and one or both are pecking at seeds, then I think you will have it made in a couple of days. Just continue to offer seed and water and start to taper off the amount and/or frequency of formula feeding. You will be surprised at how quickly they catch on to feeding themselves.
> 
> Thank you so much for taking these babies in and caring for them. What is their story .. how did they become orphans, how did you get them? We love to hear pigeon stories here .. especially the ones with a happy ending like yours.
> ...




------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

That is a very good point about taking pigeons that are two days old and feeding them.
Can anyone here say if they have seen the parents feeding babies that young through the night or are they left alone? The answer to whether these birds should be fed through the night is to imitate what the parents do?


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

I would have no idea if pigeon parents feed throughout the night, though if I had to make a guess I'd say probably not. It was reccommended to be by the veterinary tech's that work with me that they be fed through the night so that's what we ended up doing. It only lasted for the first two nights before I said forget it, mostly due to the lack of sleep and just hoped for the best that they'd manage the night without me, and of course they did. I have lots of experience bottle feeding Puppies, Kittens, even rabbits but this is my first with pigeons. They are trying very hard to pick up the birdseed on their own now...still a bit clumsy but I think they'll catch on pretty soon. By the way, do parent pigeons feed their babies at night? Just curious as to the answer to that. 

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This is distilled from 'Feral Pigeons' by Johnston & Janiga, and is an averaging out of observations from researchers in different Eurasian countries:

Adults feed their squabs usually within a few hours of hatching.....from about day 7 young beg persistently and loudly......Until this time, young have been fed three to four times daily, but will now only receive two feeds per day in morning and afternoon. This is the 'standard'; feeding may be as frequent as every 90 minutes during the day from the 10th day, if food is relatively close by.

(From which I deduce that feeding is only during the day.)

I didn't observe either of the pairs I watched raising young feeding them except between dawn and dusk, and my original pair raised one heck of a lot of young. In other literature I've looked at, nowhere is mention of night-time feeding. I'd expect this to be so, just as with other daytime birds, despite the pigeon advantage of crop-milk.

John


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Cool, Thanks John.
Every new little bit of info helps. I only fed them through the night on the first two days after that it was just too much to do...stay up all night then go to a fulltime job during the day and then try to repeat it again the next day. Just wasn't working for me , though I did worry about them during the night anyways. Couldn't help it, didn't know any better. At least now I'll be better prepared should the need arise again to take care of any more new babies brought into the office where I work. Knowledge, knowledge , knowledge....want to get as much as possible. I think it's really cool how quickly everyone here responds to our pleas of assistance. I know I appreciate it very much. Thanks again.









------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

John,
Could you do us a small favor? Would you be willing to stay up all night and watch what the parents do?
I would gladly do it but I become tired at night. LOL


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Think I'll pass that honor to Helen - she has pidgie babes on tap


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[Think I'll pass that honor to Helen - she has pidgie babes on tap] 
Gee thanks!
But going back to the subject.... It is now 9pm and dark outside. I am off to bed to catch up on sleep and I have just checked in my loft- I have a very small night light going, not enough to disturb the birds but enough so I can spot problems by looking through the windows,- and the mother of two chicks who hatched today - is guess what??...... she's feeding them!
Does that mean case closed, or does it mean she is taking advantage of the tiny night light? Just a thought.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Helen, sounds like your pidgies have cracked it









Rest good

John


----------



## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Helen, if you slipped in here without a warm welcome, it's because you arrived with a manner and expertise that meshed so easily with the people and the topics, that we (me any way) hardly caught on that you were new to our little family.

A big-time family hug would seem a little anticlimatic now, I suppose. But what the hell! 

Consider yourself hugged! 

So sue me...









PIGEONS FOREVER!!! 

--Ray


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Thanks Ray. That's very nice of you.
To be honest I joined this board intending just to lurk and learn. But when the questions started appearing, to which I knew I could give advice, I just got stuck in and completely forgot I was new myself!!!
But Thanks anyway, and I'll not sue you, coz right this minute I can't afford a lawyer!


----------



## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Wish I was rich enough to get one of those little infrared cameras to hang by the nestbox at nightime!! Hee Hee, that would answer the question indefinately..... Nooti (Helen) is a friend of mine, and advised me on my little "Patch" from the first day I found him. I did give him small night feedings for the first few days, till I noticed there was still food in the crop in the morning, then I cut back. Wish I had kept better records as to when that was.....

I wonder if the parent birds feedings at dusk & dawn are enough... I mean, I can tube feed my babies, but they are never as "brimming" with food as when the parents are through with them! LOL.... They usually look like they are going to explode when mum & pop do it. When I do it (and mind you now, this is only my first time nursing baby pidges!) I noticed I cannot seem to fill the crop as full.... the birds simply "throw up" the excess, and mind you... formula goes EVERYWHERE!!! They have re-textured one of the walls here in my office!! (not to mention wonderful spots on my husbands chair, which I cleaned up before he saw it) 

My babies are 28 days old, gee..... I guess I better put some seed in front of them.......... I think they have just set the record for the LONGEST time to self feed..... hee hee hee hee

Barb
taking full blame for her co-dependent pidgies


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by Cinderelli:
> *....By the way, do parent pigeons feed their babies at night? Just curious as to the answer to that.
> 
> *


To the best of our knowledge, pigeons do not feed at night. (or at least in complete darkness)

I base this theory on everything we have read and done for our pigeons since we got them. In order to raise healthy young pigeons early enough in the year to race them in the late summer/fall here, we put the loft lights on timers. The recommended amount of "daylight" (real or otherwise) is 14-16 hours/day. This gives adequate feeding time for the parents. The normal, less than 12 hour days normal for January/Feb, when a lot of people raise young, would result in underfeeding of the babies, we've been told.

A pigeon will not come down from it's roost/nest in the dark. If the parents don't eat, they've got nothing to feed the babies (after the "pigeon milk" supply is gone). If you watch your birds, they come down to the feed tray, fill up, and then go feed, actually regurgitating (or something similar to) the seed for the babies.


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[If you watch your birds, they come down to the feed tray, fill up, and then go feed, actually regurgitating (or something similar to) the seed for the babies.] 
I agree with all of this and everything else you said.... especially the fact that lights are left on to extend the daytime.
But I still have one or two puzzling questions which I can't seem to put an answer to.
For most of their growing life in the nest babies are fed by the parents twice a day, morning and night. I also think that the feedings alternate between the parents.
Last week I had a cock bird go missing leaving a 'widow' and daughter of 16 days. We know Mum takes the night shift and I assume she fills the crop as she comes on shift. Dad takes over in the morning after he's had breakfast and he does the morning feeding.
I noticed when this cock bird went missing, the daughter had a full crop when night fell, presumably by mother. But the following morning her crop was empty and she was not fed during the day. Mum must have assumed that Dad would do it. I ended up taking his role and filling the crop in the morning, while mom continued at night.
But at the stage when they are fed only twice a day, they are old enough and large enough to go for many hours without food. They are also being fed seed at this point, which lasts longer in the crop than the milk does.
Experience of hand rearing from hatching tells me that little ones up to 4 days old are unable to go through the night without becoming weak and dehydrated. So how do they cope in the wild? Parents of course will be able to store a large quantity of pigeon milk, and as they only need tiny amounts to fill tiny crops, parents would not need to leave the nest and go down to stock up before transferring to youngsters. So theoretically night sitting parent could safely feed tiny ones without leaving the nest.
I don't think they could feed in total darkness, but when do we ever have total darkness any more? There is so much 'light pollution' around that birds will even sing during the night, and in the dead of winter will even come down to forage for food before it is daylight. 
Just wondered what other people's thoughts were?


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Guess they act very individually, Helen. When my PP went off one morning and never returned, he and mate had a couple of youngsters about 18 - 20 days old. The hen carried on caring for them single handed and fed them in place of PP. Both young fledged and around day 38 all three took off - that was the last I saw of any of them.

I think the light problem is overcome to some degree by the little ones having the pale tip to the bill. I read that it's believed this is because the wild Rock Dove in its caves is continually in poor light, and the pale patch enables them to discern the youngster's bill to guide it to their own for feeding. Pigeons will even nest down in deep cavities in well shafts - I saw a pair in and out of one in East Anglia one time









John


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Wouldn't it be interesting if someone could do a research study of pigeons in the wild? To see how they differ in the way they raise their young, from loft birds? Set up a little computer camera near a wild nest...and just watch? That would be cool.... Of course, there would have to be more than one location...one "in town" in a more lighted area, and one somewhere with less "light pollution", if such a place exists. Pigeons are flock birds, so you usually find them in groups in town...where there's a handy supply of food.

Nooti, you're right...chances are, when still feeding pigeon milk, the babies are likely feed more often...even possibly at night. In the wild too, the birds don't raise young until the days are longer and warmer, so it is not the same as lofts with artificial light.

I believe each pair of pigeon parents are just like human parents....some things they do the same, other things they do differently. We have some pairs that both parents will go to the nest in the morning and feed (each their own baby). Others, just one or the other does the feedings (interesting observation...I've never noted whether it was momma or poppa). I do know for sure that once the babies are about 3 weeks old, poppa does most, if not all of the feeding, 'cos momma is on new eggs in the nest.

We've never lost a father bird with babies on the nest. We have lost hens though. We put a bunch of babies of similar age on the floor together, and the cock birds from all the pairs (and some of the hens) would come down and feed anyone who ran up squeaking at them. That way, the "orphans" still got fed and grew up ok. We find that the babies learn to eat and drink on their own much easier and sooner this way too, as they learn by imitation.


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[Nooti, you're right...chances are, when still feeding pigeon milk, the babies are likely feed more often...even possibly at night. ]
I don't know whether I'm right or not. In theory everything I've said seems logical, but I would love to know for sure.


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

I've caught these two little guys...who aren't so little anymore pecking out of the corner of my eye a couple of times but they still don't seem to be eating that much of the seed that I can tell. Is that because I am still using the syringe with them? If I stop feeding them the formula do I need to worry about them not eating, even though I know that they can and do Peck at the seed though it doesn't seem like they are getting enough? I don't want to keep them dependant on me when they should be taking care of themselves more than they seem to be doing on their on. I am putting them outside during the day to get them use to being out there instead being inside all the time and they are starting to relax a little when they are outside now instead of just huddling together in a corner like they did for the first couple of days. I can't believe how fast they have grown and how big they are now. They also love to get out of the cage and just flap like crazy going from a slow flap to a quicker speed then back to slow. They are so fun to watch and hold...both seem to love being held a climb up my arm to my shoulder (which I cover with a towel do to the quick and unpredictable poops that are inevitable to happen while being held....lol...I think they save just for me, how thoughtful of them, but I love to hold them anyway).


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

This is a situation I used to find myself in quite a lot until I started to use an escort bird. 
To encourage them to self feed they need to be hungry and I used to stop the daytime feeds and only fill up the crop at bed time. They are well old enough to feed themselves I think 1 day without food will put them on the right track. You can tell if they have fed themselves by feeling the crop with your fingers. I'd like to bet that by the end of the second day you will feel their crops jam packed full of seed and they will not even need their supper from you!


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

This is a situation I used to find myself in quite a lot until I started to use an escort bird. 
To encourage them to self feed they need to be hungry and I used to stop the daytime feeds and only fill up the crop at bed time. They are well old enough to feed themselves I think 1 day without food will put them on the right track. You can tell if they have fed themselves by feeling the crop with your fingers. I'd like to bet that by the end of the second day you will feel their crops jam packed full of seed and they will not even need their supper from you!


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Well, we're gong on our 5th 1/2 week now and are we very very stubborn. Let them miss a monring feeding to see if they'd eat on their on. When I got home from work yesterday evening both of there little crops were empty. I see them pecking but they don't seem to actually keep the food in their mouths. And OHHH boy were they angry little birdies when I finally brought then inside for a feeding in the evening. I filled them up promply and filled the up well. I'm going to try to just feed the with the seed out of the bowl I'm using for them in hopes that they will see WHERE I'm getting the food out of and maybe take an interest in it instead of just playing with the food that gets scattered on the bottom of their cage. I love these too dearly but they are a real challange right now. They do drink water, and take baths in the bath water I supply them so at least I know I'm making some progress.









------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Well, don't feel to bad. Mine are 5 weeks today, and I'm still feeding them.... (honestly, they are spoiled!)

Barb


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I know it's no consolation coz it's too late now, but the earlier you try to encourage self feeding, ie 20 days or so, the quicker they catch on.
If they are left till they are over 4 weeks old, they seem to be much, much harder to convince over self feeding. I have gone through the same frustrations as you have. Really you need an escort bird. At that age they are old enough to realise just which side their bread is buttered and they can be very determined.


----------



## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

yeah, well..... I know it's my own fault. Today I have them in the center section of the aviaries so maybe they can "see" the other birds eating & give them a nudge in the right direction. They saw me this morning, and they honestly looked so pathetic standing on the ground, flitting their little wings at me. I'm going out in a bit to check on them & feel their crops. Wish me luck, I'm going to need it!


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[yeah, well..... I know it's my own fault.]
Barbra - 
yeah, well..... You said it!! (snigger)
Helen


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

I've been throwing some wild bird seed on the ground about 10 feet or so away from their outside cage in hopes that as the wild birds peck at the ground they'll see them doing so and maybe take the hint. LOL I hand-fed them yet again tonight though I"m also using plopping some seed into their mouths as well as using the syringe. I try to hide the groul from them so they don't see the cup it is in and try to get them to watch the hand that is picking up the seed to put in their mouths instead. They don't seem to really care what that hand is up to cause they know that if the just scream loud enough and long enough I"m gonna give them some more stuff from the syringe...lol Just whose training who here? Me or them? Seems to me that THEY have ME train pretty well. Though I did finally get one of them to play with the food in the bowl though he didn't pick anything up from it at least he had his beak in there trying. They practice flapping those wings a lot too. The smaller of the two flew about 
1 1/2 feet to me today at feeding time. As short as it was he did it quite smoothly and elogantly for a beginner. Made me proud of him for being able to so.








I must admit that I am so glad that I found this site...this is a very helpful place with knowledgable, helpful people. I really appeciate the advice I'm getting here. 
I had a friend use her digital camera to take a couple pictures of these two and as soon as she sends them to me I'll attempt to post them for you all to take a peek. Thanks again.

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Ok, I got the pic of these two, Now as soon as I figure out how to post them I'll let you all know. LOL Thanks.

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## joann woodring (Mar 27, 2002)

Hi Cinderelli,

I don't have a pigeon loft, but I volunteer at a local wildlife rehabilitation center, and can tell you what they do with tiny squabs. They syringe feed a baby bird formula during the daytime, whenever the crop feels empty, increasing the amount as the bird grows. When the baby is fully feathered they keep water and seed in the cage, but continue to feed by syringe twice a day until they can feel seed in the crop. It seems that some babies self feed sooner than others. Everyone at the center seems to think that birds don't feed young at night, (the question of nocturnal birds comes to mind). Just my two cents, hope it helps.

My question to everyone out there is, though, do you feed a different food during the first several days of a squabs life? That would be during the pigeon milk period? It seems that most squab mortality happens to the very youngest ones, and some people I have asked said that without pigeon milk, a very young squab, although uninjured, might not live, because the milk gives the tiny one necessary enzymes, bacteria, or something from the parents' crop. Or are the very young sometimes dying because they should be fed at night during this stage? I'm sure someone knows the answer.

And there's nothing cuter than a squab!

JoAnn


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Joann says [some people I have asked said that without pigeon milk, a very young squab, although uninjured, might not live, because the milk gives the tiny one necessary enzymes, bacteria, or something from the parents' crop. Or are the very young sometimes dying because they should be fed at night during this stage? ]
Joann - You have said all that quite correctly. I can hand rear from hatching, but the first meal I give is a rehydrant which replaces any fluids and electrolytes lost after hatching. Then I give a probiotic which puts natural bacteria in the gut which is essential for digestion of food. This would normally be passed on to the chick by the parent at the first feed.
Only after those two have been given and digested is the chick ready for it's first meal of formula. For the first few days it is fed as a runny mixture. Their growing bodies require vast amounts of fluid, so the strength of food to water is quite weak. As a result they need feeding much more often and I am convinced that the very young are fed during the night. I have almost lost chicks through dehydration when I have slept through the night and they missed a couple of feeds. Why should it be any different in the nest with their parents? I found they needed feeding at least every three hours, 2 during the day. But by the time they are about 4 to 5 days old they can safely go through the night, and the formula can be thickened. Only by following those directions have I managed to rear chicks from hatching. I also noted that all utensils needed steam sterilising between each feed. If this was not done they succumbed to a gut bacterial infection very quickly.


----------



## joann woodring (Mar 27, 2002)

Hi Nooti,

Thanks so much for the info on new hatched squab feeding. I will pass it on to the people at the rehab center. When you mention a probiotic, I understand that means beneficial bacteria. Where do you get this? Also, do you use the Kaytee baby bird formula, or make your own?

JoAnn


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[When you mention a probiotic, I understand that means beneficial bacteria. Where do you get this? Also, do you use the Kaytee baby bird formula, or make your own?]
Hi Joann. Any probiotic can be bought from a vet. But you are in the US and we are in the UK, you may be able to just buy it over the caounter at a store. We cannot do that here.
In an emergency, unsweetened natural yoghurt is an excellent alternative.
I use liquidised poultry rearing crumbs to feed mine with. They do disgustingly well on it. Wouldn't change it for a thing!!! ;-)


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Ok, now another week has passed and still these two refuse to eat from their dish and insist that I feed them the babybird formula.
They are very stubborn. They are both getting pretty good at short flight navigation from the cage to me, up on my head or arms which ever seems most attractive to them at the time. How in the heck do I get these two weened? One of my co-workers at the vet office insist that in their own time they will just eventually refuse to take the syringe and start eating on their own but I'm skepical about this. I've tried letting them go a whole day without my giving in and going for the syringe and when the time period was up, they still had empty crops (appeared and felt empty to me anyway). They have both feathered beautifully and are both very pretty to look at and both enjoy being handled and pet. I think that I have surpassed the oldest syringe feeding birds, I know they have to be older than 36 days being as I've had them almost 6 weeks and they were only a couple of days old when I got them to begin with. Please tell me there is hope for my mission of getting these two to take care of themselves at least a little bit.









------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well you are having problems!! ;-)
I have had this with just two that I can remember. However I have never had one that deliberately starved itself to death, but what I am going to advise you will be very hard indeed. 
Stop feeding.... altogether! You are just reinforcing the baby routine.
A bird that size and weight can safely go 3 -4 days without food before you would need to intervene. Now that gives you a safe cut off point. They will not die, they will go thin if it takes that long, but they will still be alive and healthy even at 4 days...... but it won't take that long.
Leave food and water down, and hunger will force them I can guarantee it.
It will be hard, and you will suffer agonies, but in the wild Mom and Pop would have stopped their silly games long before now.;-)
Use us as a sounding board for your frustration, your moaning board for your worries as they get to the third day and you think they will not make it, and then use us as your success board to whoop!...... as you find them tucking heavily into their seed dish one morning!
Try it. It worked for me both times!
You have us here to guide you along the way.


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Thanks Nooti,
I really and truely appreciate your advice and the support here. Ok, I'm going to use your advice starting today. I'm also going to go get some real pigeon food instead of using the wild bird seed that the pet store said would be ok to use. Then it's no more baby stuff. Oh this is going to be rough on me..the one day that I did that for one day only I felt like a bad mommy. lol Almost couldn't bear it and it was all I could do to keep myself from caving in and going out there to feed them. Talk about "guilt". And all that screaming they do when they hear me nearby sure doesn't help a Mom to be strong. Ok, wish me luck and I will keep you posted on the progress. By the way, I did send a picture in of these two. Hope it gets posted up so you can see them. Though it's about two weeks old now and they are much prettier and bigger now. Thanks again for all the help. 

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Hi Cinderelli. Well, I started my "tough love" yesterday. I was out in the aviary for a bit, putting down new flooring and they peeped at me the whole time. I left food & water. It's very hard for me. I want to run right out there right now. *sigh* I;ll let you know when mine start eating. BTW, mine hatched 2/26  I think they have me trained well don't you?

Good luck
Barb


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Barbra
And about time too! Judging by the piccies you sent me yesterday, it won't be long before they've got young themselves!!! Hee hee..... you big softy!!
Cindrelli, you are doing well so far, don't give up..... it will be worth it to put those syringes away, and not have to watch the clock and the size of their crops!


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Well, this is day number one of no syringe feedings. I replaced the wild bird seed that I was using or trying to use anyway with a multi-grained bird food. To my disbelief they actually showed a little interest in it.
Of course at first when I was showing it to them all they wanted was to peck at my hand in seach of the syringe. So, I put a little of the new stuff in my hand and held it open for them and the pecked at it right away. One of them actually kept it in his mouth and didn't drop it which infuriated the other one so he immediately tried to stick his beak into the other one's mouth to see what goodies he had the the other one didn't. LOL 
Anyway , I played around poking at the new food with my fingers when low and behold one of them started picking a little bit of food up out of the dish his-self. I was so excited, still am for that matter to see him/her pick food up out of the dish then proceeded to get a drink from the other dish as well. I think we're headed in the right direction now.
Yes, I think these guys had both of us trained pretty well to their advantage. Hang in there, stay strong, and we'll get these babies to eat. Yippppeee!!!

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Cindrelli
Sounds goodo to me!!!
Keeping my fingers crossed but I KNOW they will be eating very soon now.
Don't give in to their pleading. They will continue that for days, even weeks after they are independent at feeding, just stick to your guns. They are nearly there!


----------



## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

OK, I felt seed in mine today....... not much mind you, but enough to make me not give in







...........

Barb


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Barb and Cindrelli,

KUDOS to both of you .. I think you have done it! Self feeding babies .. what a wonderful
thing and a great relief to you both!

Terry Whatley


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Thanks for the Kudos. LOL
Going on day two now, I didn't get out there early enough to tell if they had eaten much on their own but I'll check first thing in the morning. We'll see how it's going then , I'm sure. They sound so pittiful when they cry...almost unbearable to thier mamma but I'm going to stick to my guns. They are testing their wings everytime I bring then inside the house to visit and getting sort of good. I feel really guilty keeping them in the cage all the time, but I want to be really sure they can eat on their well and take care of themselves before even attempting to let them out to stretch in the "real sky". Should I even be considering letting have their own outside like that? What if something happens to them? I know they deserve to at least be given the chance to fly around and hopefully return but as a "mamma" I am very worried about this inevitable event. Everyone says that they will return and that I'd have to be very neglectful for them to actually leave and not come back but there are so many dangers out there....ravens, cats, little boys with bb guns, etc. It would be selfish to keep them locked up all the time once they can take care of themselves but I have all these fears about turning them loose once the time is right. Any words of wisdom to help me relax a little bit about the idea of freeing these two to the sky to exercise? I know it's a little early probably to worry about this but I can't help it.

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

This is such a long string of posts, I may have missed something but is there anything the matter with first cutting down the feedings to once per day during the weaning process in order for the birds to become hungry but not shocking them?

------------------
"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."

Albert Schweitzer


----------



## Dee McCoy (Sep 5, 2001)

What Fred says makes sense from what I've observed-my "babies" are probably 40 days old, (for sure they are 38 days), and I take them outside every day for their parents to feed them. I have noticed that for days now, the parents have cut way down on feeding them, (although they do still feed them). Now it's more of a "tease" in an attempt to get the baby to follow them and this is their way of getting them off the groung and flying. It triggers their instinct and they start pecking the ground for seed, all the while the little wings twitching-almost involuntarily! For those who were interested in an update re: my post about the baby with the ruptured air sac-he is one of the two mentioned here and he is seemingly fine now, thank you all for your help and guidance with that. They should be flying away any day now-the only delay in that now is my little visitor. A banded pigeon has shown up three days in a row now, and my momma pigeon spends all her time chasing the poor kid away instead of giving flying lessons! Dee


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Parents only feed when there is light.

d.



> Originally posted by Cinderelli:
> *I would have no idea if pigeon parents feed throughout the night, though if I had to make a guess I'd say probably not. It was reccommended to be by the veterinary tech's that work with me that they be fed through the night so that's what we ended up doing. It only lasted for the first two nights before I said forget it, mostly due to the lack of sleep and just hoped for the best that they'd manage the night without me, and of course they did. I have lots of experience bottle feeding Puppies, Kittens, even rabbits but this is my first with pigeons. They are trying very hard to pick up the birdseed on their own now...still a bit clumsy but I think they'll catch on pretty soon. By the way, do parent pigeons feed their babies at night? Just curious as to the answer to that.
> *


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

So, how do I teach these guys to fly around during the day and come home at night? Is this something I should even be considering? I feel bad that they are in a cage all day long and never get out to really fly. I take them out in the house so they can stretch but they are mostly caged during the day and night except for when I play with them. And they are both very affectionate too by the way. 

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Cindrelli,
You don't need to teach them, they will do that by instinct. If you have a safe place to put the cage just outside, then put them out in it every day for a few days, then leave the door open one day. They will venture out, but not go far at first, and will come back and go inside their cage of their own accord. Pigeons love their homes and will not desert them unless they are new and originally homed to somewhere else, or their food supply at their home dries up.
Are they self feeding yet?


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hi Nooti,

Yes, they are finally self-feeding now. One of them is actually "cooing" now which I think is the coolest thing. Funny though because the one that was the littler of the two has suddenly grown to be the larger of them now and that is the one that is "cooing" now, though he also makes a very strange other sound almost like a hissy screach as he searches the palm of my hand for any tasty morsels that may be hidden there. Should I make a little platform or something to that affect off of the door to their cage to make it easier for them to get in and out of...something to land on when returning to the cage? You know what's funny is that I never used to really be "in" to birds but since getting these two I have literally fallen in love with them. They are great. Oh, what if I leave the door open and they aren't back in there by the time I go to bed? Just leave it open for them to come and go? Guess I just have a case of the Pre-releasing jitters. LOL

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Cindrelli
[Yes, they are finally self-feeding now.]
YEAH!!!!!! I knew the three of you could do it!!!!!
[ Should I make a little platform or something to that affect off of the door to their cage to make it easier for them to get in and out of...something to land on when returning to the cage?]
Good idea - Pigeons do like a landing and take off board.
[Oh, what if I leave the door open and they aren't back in there by the time I go to bed?]
If it's dark when you go to bed they'll be there!!!!
[Guess I just have a case of the Pre-releasing jitters. LOL]
Remember the pre-self feeding jitters you once had???????????
Say no more!! LOL
Good luck!


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hi Nooti. Still haven't let them out yet. Still need to make a landing board. They look at the open door with lots of interest so I think that this week on my day off...friday, I will let them out whether I have the landing board ready or not. I think they deserve at least that much...the chance to get out and fly free. They sure are beautiful now. Only one of them does any "cooing" the other is just a quiet fellow I guess. I am guessing that's the female , it is more submissive than the other one. Hey Nooti, I left a new topic on the 1st page. Could you possibly check it out? I have a new problem. LOL Thanks. Bye for now.
Take Care everyone.









------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hey Nooti,

Guess what!! I got the landing board squared away and let the guys outside this afternoon. At first they wouldn't go more than 2 to 3 feet away from me. One of them flew to me, landed on me and refused to venture any further but continued to gaze at the outside world with much curisity and a bit of anamosity too I'm sure. I spent about 30 minutes with them to help them not be so scared then I left them to enjoy their new surrounding on their own for a while. I am still peeking out on them every few minutes or so to see if they are still around. It's been about an hour and they finally took a brief fly around the top of the house and took perch in a nearby tree in my neighbor's backyard....it's ok....they have no pets in that backyard. They look really happy and much less nervous already. I'm glad I let them out , now lets see how well they go back in later on this evening. Keep your fingers crossed that they stick around and let me put them back in their house when it's time to go night night. LOL

------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Good for you!!
If you go out every so often and talk to them, they shouldn't go too far. As a test you can try calling them in for food, but I think they will come home at dusk. As long as they don't go too far on the first day. 
I have never lost a youngster. Older ones are liable to stray, as Scops and Brud did that day and I had to move heaven and earth to get them home, but in the main young ones usually stick around.
Good luck, and let me know.


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hi Nooti
They've been out for a couple of hours now and haven't gone any further then the top of the house or the neighbors tree..it hangs over in to our yard. They seem pretty content just sitting in the sun. I go out and talk to them and they fly down to the fence about one foot from where I stand and listen. One of them intermitantly flys to my shoulder and hangs our for a few minutes before puttering up to be near the other one. I feel much better seeng them out being free to roam a bit. They deserve it. They are good little pigeons.
Oh, by the way theCrow is doing well. He's talking more, eating more enthusiastically and enjoys hopping around the living room exploring. Caught my husband talking to him this afternoon. Also just found out that we have aquired two more residents for the "Avian Inn" here at our house. My husband just brought home two little hens to join in on our merry little house. LOL Don't know how it happened but I think we have officially become "Bird People"









------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

[Don't know how it happened but I think we have officially become "Bird People" ]
Ha! Well you have the best company in the world! 
I am going to bed now it is way past midnight here. Let me know if - no WHEN they come home for supper!!!! I shall be here first thing in the morning.
Good luck


----------



## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

I have not had time to read all 59 posts on this thread but here is my 2 cents worth.
The best way to teach a young squab to eat (self-feed) is to place it with an adult bird and let it learn how to eat from there.
I sometimes put the young bird in a cage next to an adult bird in another cage, put the feed in the middle. The young bird will learn to eat very soon using this method.
Regards,
Carl


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hi Nooti,
Well they did come home, actually they never leave the backyard area. They go up to the roof but that's as far as they ever venture so far anyway. They fly down to the banister or onto the top of our screen door in the back after dark and wait to be put back into the cage. They never actually fly back to the cage and go to bed themselves. LOL Just like a couple of kids not wanting to really go to bed at night but want to be near Mom and Dad after dark. My husband has decided to like these two now and talks to them a lot. He even helped me put them to bed tonight...talking to the one he carried all the way to the cage petting him all the while. Just one big happy family.










> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *[Don't know how it happened but I think we have officially become "Bird People" ]
> Ha! Well you have the best company in the world!
> I am going to bed now it is way past midnight here. Let me know if - no WHEN they come home for supper!!!! I shall be here first thing in the morning.
> Good luck*




------------------
Cindrelli


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well at least they come home........
I'm so glad.
Maybe you could put a perch or small shelf just outside the screen door, then they have somewhere safe to go to when they come home. You can collect them from there when you are ready. If you had a shelf then you can put their dish of food on it, and they would call that home then.
The main worry would be if they decided to breed when old enough and if they do not have what they consider a safe place, then they may fly off to search for a nest site somewhere else, and you could lose them
But anyway - so far so good! This is the best bit. That you can watch them fly free as they were meant to, yet they still come back to you afterwards! Enjoy it. You have worked hard for this.
How's the crow by the way?


----------



## Cinderelli (Mar 22, 2002)

Hi Nooti.
The crow is doing very well, though as the pigeons did before him he is stubborn and insists upon my putting food in his mouth. If he really really likes a particular food, if I leave in his bowl he will go after it eventually but mostly he wants me to put it in his mouth. I am worried about him not getting enough water though. He doesn't drink on his own, he just spills the water bowl if I leave it in the box with him. If he's really thirsty he'll take water from a syringe or from my fingertips but just hasn't found his way around the water bowl yet. He is still young yet though and I think that in time he'll learn as the pigeons did...we all know what a terrific battle that was to get those two to eat on their own. Guess he's going to put up the same fight as they did. LOL He looks good and is very active and curious about everything he sees. Unfortunately I still have to keep him in a box which he doesn't like much because he can't see out from it. My friend has a nice cage for him but keeps forgetting to bring it to work. Once I get that I think he'll be much happier being able to see around himself. I'll keep you posted on his progress. Thanks again , Nooti.

------------------
Cindrelli


----------

