# A good antibiotic & good antifungal?



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Seeing as my vet is being absolutely ridiculous and not responding to me, I have decided that due to the fact that she is not as specialized in avian medicine as I thought she was, I'm going to have to take this on myself. First order of the day is purchasing or renting, borrowing or just using a decent microscope and doing a fecal smear in order to identify any bacterial or fungal infections... Then I'm going to purchase an antibiotic and medistat, probably from Foy's pigeon supplies (just in case you didn't know - http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com). I want to pick out a good, safe antibiotic along with the medistat, just in case this problem is bacterial... Which I will hopefully soon find out...

Which do you suggest? Is it available at Foy's?

Also, because of the sore on Moody's vent, should I be putting some sort of topical medication on it? I am putting hydrogen peroxide and polysporin on the sore every day now, and am using unscented and alcohol-free baby wipes with aloe and vitamin E to clean around the area as well... The only reason the sore bleeds is because when she's in distress, it falls off. Also, bath time is the only time she really has access to the sore... So she tends to preen around her vent obsessively due to the itching due to the sore and therefore pulls off the scab... and then it bleeds! This, so far, is what I believe to be the only cause of the blood in her poop because she only has blood present when she has ripped off the scab or if it has fallen off and the sore is bleeding.

So, do I need a specific topical medication to put on her? Is it available through Foy's?
And what sorts of antibiotic is safe to use? Is it available at Foy's? What are the dosages for geese?

THANK YOU for your time... I have been truly doing all I can for Moody and as you can see, posting a lot of questions about her and what I can do to help her...

Vasp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, yeah, they've got Medistatin, 100 grams for $30. What that'll do is inhibit fungal growth in the GI tract. It's not a medicine that's absorbed in the system. As far as antibiotics go, the selection is kinda' based on what you're suspecting.

It's not an instantaneous thing, using a microscope to identify things. There is a little bit of a learning curve there. I suppose some things might be recognizable pretty quick, like fungi.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 




If it was me, looking for a Microscope ( assuming you have some familiarity with the different kinds to know a worthwhile one when you see it ) I would...


Check the local 'Pawn Shops' and speak with the Manager and not the lackys.


If they have one, they already know it is going to be a long haul to see it 'go', so, bargain wisely, and pay cash, and say early on, "I do not need or care about a receipt."


Generally, a 'pretty darned good-enough' one which is not an Antique, seem to run twenty to fifty bucks or so, with very decent ones on the low end of that, and better ones being more, so, say, a 'Gilbert' Hobby one from the 1950s, meant for 'serious' Kids, having three lower lenses and several optional top ones, is 'worth' like ten or fifteen bucks maybe, yet is really a quite 'good' Microscope...and plenty good for what we need to do.


Pidgey is the one to ask though on all this, since I am still at the back-of-the-class in this matter.


More 'Lab' or Medical or Scientific ones, up from there of course.



Or, go onto the 'e-bay', where there are ZILLIONS of Microscopes of every kind, to be had for bargain prices, and see what you like there.



As for what to do for her 'sore', I dunno...

Sounds to me like you are doing a very good job of tending to it as it is...doing what you have been doing.


If it is a Virus or Papiloma, it 'might' be willing to 'burn' away with Silver Nitrate...it might be willing to go away with Raw Garlic or Raw Garlic Juice or Raw Liver being applied, or ( and don't laugh!) it might be willing to go away with simple, clear, definite 'positive thinking' where you have to literally 'see' and imagine impecibally, her area there having only a healthy, happy way about it in every way, with NO hint of any thought about what you do 'not' want there.

Endless kids used to 'wish away' Warts, with or without ritual obsewrvances like tiing some Raw Liver on it, and I did too when I was a kid, and the best way to do it, on one's self or on another, is to KNOW and 'see' in your mind, an imminent future which is free of it...

Any 'Virus' skin-thing, is the same, far as this goes..."Science-Schmience" - Spontaneous remission is AS well established, as any pathological 'model' which might purport to poo-poo it.



Antibiotic-wise, hmmmmmmmmm...if it was me, Doxycycline would maybe be my choice to try and see what shakes...


If you get some, or get something else, just run it by everyone as for ideas on dosage...we can all see about figuring it out 'then'.



Best wishes!



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...have-a-look - 


http://search.ebay.com/search/searc...=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=


Or...


http://search.ebay.com/search/searc...102&sabfmts=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Would Tetracycline be okay? It's available at our feed store.

'water soluble antibiotic for chickens, turkeys, swine, calves and sheep
rapidly absorbed
Indications: an aid in the treatment of infections caused by microorganisms sensitive to tetracycline HCL
chickens and turkeys - chronic respiratory disease, bluecomb, cholera, enteritis, hexamitiasis
swine, calves, lambs - enteritis(diarrhea), respiratory disease
Active Ingredient: Tetracycline HCL 250mg/g

100g package'


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 




Tetracycline is a very good and handy Antibiotic, for sure.


Whether it will answer anything going on with Moody, hmmmmmm...I dunno, it might...it might be worth a try.



If I can trust my memory here on this - 


Things we do not know:


We do not know if Moody has a Virus, which could be systemic in so far as it might be making lesions or troubles in various places...and might account for the lesion on her Vent.


We do not know if she has some order of Metal Poisoning, or PCB poisoning, got of contiminated Soils, Water, degraded or eroded Paint elements, or other...


We do not know if she has an Oemobic or Bacterial or Parasite-related illness...even if some meds for these have been tried.


Other than, that some of the symptoms fit each of these, or fit more than one of these, at least superficially.


I do not see any harm to try the Tetracycline.


I do not remember what regimen she has had for addressing what had been a conjectured ( or verified? ) Candida issue ( 'Gleet' ) 

However, if she has a Candida issue, the Tetracyccline might cause the Candida to worsen, even dangerously...if it is still present in her system in more than a normal backround sort of way.


If you decide to try it, run the dose reasoning by us in case anyone has any insight on that.

Those are my thoughts...


I do not see any actual referance in the Pharmacopia for Geese...but...

Galliformes 30 - 60 Mg per Kilo "QD"
Poultry 60

Other Species quite a bit higher...so again, we would do well to find some references which would help guide the dosage for a Goose.


But, probably, a Goose is closer to 'Poultry' than to a Parrot, Pigeon or others.


Far as I know, Tetracycline is pretty forgiving anyway...but over long courses would be likely to invite problems.


Phil
l v








All in all, what is better, and what is not better with her presently?


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


Dunno if there might be anything of any use here, but 

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y4359E/y4359e0g.htm


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you, Phil. Yes, there are quite a few issues that may be present and it's difficult to know whether they are or aren't. It would be easy to say I could just take her into the vet to have a bacterial culture taken, but the problem is that first off, the vet doesn't seem to know much about Moody at all. Moody would also probably get very frightened and the scab that is _finally_ forming over her sore might be pulled off by her excess 'vent movements', which she does when she is really nervous. Plus... A bacterial swab includes a swab to be pushed into the vent. The vet might pull off the scab! And then, Moody would bleed a lot and have to regrow the scab again.

I think this is the only cause for blood in her poop. Would coccidiosis, lead poisoning, vent gleet and a few others still fit? The sore is not even black--the scab is a dark brown, as scabs go, but the actual sore is reddish, of course. And very bloody. All she has is diarrhea that smells pretty foul. The sore on her vent, I was told (can never be 100% sure with the people that tell me though, here in Saskatchewan the avian vets are a bit clued out) is likely a rash/infection due to the fact that she wears a diaper. Because she has diarrhea and she wears a diaper, the poop had contact with her vent; quite a lot of it. This wouldn't normally occur in an 'outside' goose. 

So... Now, she is not having access to her vent (she pulls off the scab) and it seems like there is absolutely no blood in the poop at all. So... That's why she pooped blood in the bath tub.

So, that eliminates a big symptom of... internal bleeding or whatever it may be. Blood in the poop. There was blood... On her vent... When she pooped, the stress from pooping really caused the sore to bleed more and then there was quite a bit of blood in the poop. Anyway...

Hmm.

I suppose I'll try Tetracycline. I'll buy some and then I suppose, we should discuss the dosage for geese. I think she's exactly 14.6 pounds at the moment.


Vasp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



May as well see if the Tetracycline helps things then I suppose!

And it might..!

So yes, get some, and we can muse on the dosage and whatever else.


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you, Phil! I will be sure to pick up some. Because of Tetracycline being a broad-spectrum antibiotic, it will probably wipe out a significant amount of her 'good bacteria' which is probably low as it is... so I'm ordering some probiotic from Foy's.

Going to buy these two things:

'Friendly Bacteria Builder	
Status: IN STOCK

A pro-biotic essential to good health. An absolute must for the treatment of bacterial infections of the intestines, Toxicosis and loose watery type droppings. Will re-establish normal intestinal bacteria after treatment with antibiotics or any medications. Add 1/4 teaspoon to a gallon of drinking water. Will make many, many gallons.'

and

'	
Medistatin	
Status: IN STOCK

For the prevention and treatment of Candida in pigeons and birds. The only Nystatin powder specifically for pigeons and birds. Ideal for crop dosing baby birds. Easy to administer over food. 5 gr. over 2 lbs. of feed using a spoon that is included.'


But just a question... I could always sprinkle the Medistatin over her peas and corn and other veggies that she has just come to love, but is it possible to put it in the water? The Tetracycline I'm going to be purchasing is water soluble, so it will be especially easy to give her.
Also, for the dosage of Medistatin, I don't really have a way of weighing her food or anything... Unless I was really to make her a huge amount and then weigh it on the scale that _we_ use (no food scale or anything). Is there any other way to determine a dosage; not in weight, but perhaps in volume?

Oh, and are cucumbers okay for her? I've only given her a little bit because I really haven't heard much about them. And what about celery?

Anyway, thank you again.


Vasp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



No 'probiotics' untill a week after she is done with the Tetracycline.


Celery I would think to be nice, but cut into very small pieces for her.

Fine leafy Greens and Sprouts are very good, so keep up on those.



'Cucumber' is a kind of "melon" and will conflict and complicate digestion, so I would say "No" Cucumber.


"Medistatin" should have dosage info on the package...and one would do this by Volume of Powder for making a day's dose or something.



Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Sounds good. So, no cucumber. She does like celery though. I cut it into tiny little pieces like you might find in salads. She likes them. Okay, I suppose when I get the medistatin we can discuss the dosage then. Would it be for all birds?


Vasp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



Yes, the 'Medistatin' would be not only for all Birds, but, for all Species of Animals period, far as I know.


I believe it is easy to add to select Foods or to Water.



Perslonally, I feel it would be good for her to be eating like Black Berrys, Blue Berrys, Rasp Berrys ( I would skip Straw Berrys however ) and these can be had fresh frozen in Bags for like 99 Cents or 1.29 or something at most Grocerys.

Thawed of course, to room temp in the day's amounts...


Lol, now that made me want to go get some and have a Bowl full or two!


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I have bought and tried out some berries for her, but I don't think she is too fond of them! She always shakes them out of her beak. And the berries here... Are more like 5-8 dollars or more a bag! Very strange... Anyway, I'll buy some more and try to 'hand feed' them to her. She seems to prefer foods that I offer by hand.


Vasp


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