# My 4 months old fledgling seems a little down...



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Hi, 
I am bit concerned about my 4 months old fledgling who didn't eat his seeds yesterday evening. He seemed slightly fluffed up than normal but that didn't seem very odd because of just a minute difference from normal. When I checked his feed bowl in morning, it was all as it was yesterday, full with seeds, usually he spills them out and doesn't leave anything. Today when I opened him, he is flying but seems a little less active than normal,not much difference tho. But today too he hasn't eaten much, just picked up few millets and that's all. 
I gave vitamins dissolved in water but he didn't drink, so I dipped his beak in that so he may sip a little. 
I couldn't get apple cider vinegar at stores here so I don't have that in hand to give him for minerals. 
I can try warm sugar water in some time but had to see first with vitamins as once my hen was dull and by giving the same vitamin water she became fine in few days. 
His crop is empty and poop seems normal but have to observe closely from now. 
Already medicated them all with pyrantel water some days back, so don't think it may be because of worms. 
If I don't see him eating in some more time, I will force feed him. 
What else I can do in such situation?


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

most obvious question....how are the poops??have you checked him for canker.... if he will not start eating, i would start him on flagyl
experienced member will be here soon...


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

If you are talking about canker plaque in throat, there is no canker showing up in mouth, all normal. Poops are normal but not pooping that frequently, may be because not eating that much. Within an hour of giving vitamins, he ate some more grains. When I put my hand in cage for feed, he pecked me as he usually does but that too wasn't that effective as he normally does. There is something bothering him, not sure what. Although his behavior is just slightly changed but I can notice it easily. This time too roosting a bit fluffed up. Yes me too thinking for Flagyl but let more ideas come.
Do they have some behavioral change due to season? as it is raining here since night.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The fact that is not eating is a serious symptom. If droppings are normal (are you sure they are?), maybe something else impedes him to eat. 

Keep in mind that when a bird doesn't eat is either because has some digestive disfunction, or some pain or other kind of distress that keeps him away from food. In this case, One possibility is an ingested object that blocks the communication between crop and gissard. Other possibility is a canker nodule inside the crop, blocking the communication.

Giving something sweet may cause candida to grow inside crop and complicate the issue. 

Try to palpate the crop very gently, not pushing at all, as the ingested object may have sharp edges, like a glass shard e.g. If found, ideally you would go to a vet for extraction. If not possible, maybe someone on this forum will help you with advices how to extract the object.

If no object found, maybe is a good idea to start the flagyl treatment for canker.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes, was observing his poop since morning and it was normal but just now noticed something. Attaching a pic here.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

That is not normal looking droppings, look at the mucoid constitution.

Mucoid droppings and undigested food are classic symptoms of coccidia but can be something else as well.

Do droppings have a foul smell?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Andrie, there is no mucous in poop. did you notice tapeworm segments in poop? This is something like tapeworm segments? But I have no experience with them.
And yes there is no foul odour in droppings.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I, too, have no experience with tapeworms, so I can not tell if that is tapeworm segment or not. But, if worms are evident in one bird then it's best to treat individually. The wormers I have used require that the individual dose be repeated after 1 - 2 weeks.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I think I should treat him with Praziquantel for tapeworms as searched on net. Not sure.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

John_D said:


> I, too, have no experience with tapeworms, so I can not tell if that is tapeworm segment or not. But, if worms are evident in one bird then it's best to treat individually. The wormers I have used require that the individual dose be repeated after 1 - 2 weeks.


Sorry John, your post showed up when I posted, tho it was posted 10-15 minutes back. 
I am searching on Internet but I rely more on experienced members here. Once I am sure these are tapeworm segments, I will go to buy wormer for that. 
Thanks for the reply


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I searched at three stores to get Praziquantel on hand if in case is needed but what I got is Albendazole+Pyrantel in combo, under name Bandy plus. When searched online, it showed that Albendazole can be used as an alternate of Praziquantel. 
Don't know if it is somewhat more toxic than Praziquantel? 
Also, I have given them Pyrantel for worms few days back to complete its full course on 21 days time intervals thrice. So no need to give more Pyrantel but since Albendazole is here in combination with Pyrantel, I have no option but to use this combo only. 
So a bit confused. 
Looking forward to a response from an experienced members with these wormers.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

O! sorry for delay in replying...
Yes these are tapeworms segments. The poop isn't fine because he isn't well.
Is your bird passing such segments oftenly?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

No, I am seeing them first time. May be I closely observed the poop today because he seemed unwell. But before today I never came to see these segments. 
There were round worms earlier which have been treated already as per your advice. 
I am really worried about him as he doesn't seem to be eating much and a bit fluffed up.

P.S OK if you are talking about today, no I haven't seen them in other droppings yet but may be I need to check in even more.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I nearly lost a homer to albendazole and one of my other pigeons started to limp badly after its use. Albendazole isn't suitable for pigeons for deworming. If you can get Bandy Plus you could get BendyStar, I think. Ask for it or look around in .


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh sorry for your loss. I wouldn't give it to him. 
I couldn't get Praziquantel in any combos so bought that. I think I will have to go almost 2 kms to get that and it is already evening. 
Tell me if it will be late to treat if I buy it in morning tomorrow and give? or if urgent I will manage to go this time only anyhow. 
Pls reply. 
And yes I saw only one more segment when checked in 3-4 more dropping.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Also can we use Praziquantel tablet? as someone told me it is not available in liquid suspension when confirmed at one more store.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

yes these are tapeworm segments...even i m struggling with them from last 6 months...i also cannot put my hands on praziquantel tablets...its even harder to get liquid form.
yes even my pigeons showed this same behaviour when recently got tapeoworms....they would usually be puffed up and sit in a corner..but after some days they start behaving normally.
i found prazi but with combination of albendazole...so its of no use. 
i think you said there are lots of ants around ur pigeons and they also attack ur feed...they may be the reason, or even lice and pests in feed!!


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

if he passed only few segments after many poops that means tapeworm in him has just started maturing...he must have infested insect , about 2 weeks ago...he will start passing segments with every poop as tapeworm will get adult...you could order praziquantel human tablets online...


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

OK Naresh, it means that is not urgent to treat? As it is already around 8:00 pm so not possible to go this time and weather too is not good. 
I have called a vet and he said he will give me Praziquantel in some combo in liquid suspension tomorrow but he wasn't open today due to poor weather and rain. 
So I will go there in morning. Hope he doesn't have it with albendazole as it will be of no use then. Also will look for Bandystar if I can get. 
It is so stressful when we can't get required pigeon drugs, I spent almost half day searching for it but of no use. 
Will let you know if I get that tomorrow.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

Yah only 1or 2 tapeworms are not gonna do any change in their behaviour After somedays.. but you should find the source from where they are getting infected..i would suspect more on feed and external parasites ....pigeons dont usually pick anything thats moving...
i have searched for prazi in my and as well as nearby towns but still couldnt find it..
hope you will get it..!!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Their feed has no insects, I just bought it fresh. Ants don't reach their feed as well as I use Hit chalk more frequently now. What I see is yes my both young ones are in habit of pecking on everything. They kill ants, I think they just peck ants out of curiosity and these are killed unintentionally when they are out of their cages. Although I never saw them eating anything odd, if sometimes ant gets stuck to their beak, they use their claws and remove it. So may be some time he swallowed any , not sure. 
I got surprised to see those segments as now I am taking extra care since they had round worms. I keep grit in oven for 20-30 minutes to serve. 
Don't know really where they are getting these worms from.
Well I will let you know about medicines, have to spend another day on it, hope it is worth spending.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nare J said:


> if he passed only few segments after many poops that means tapeworm in him has just started maturing...he must have infested insect , about 2 weeks ago...he will start passing segments with every poop as tapeworm will get adult...you could order praziquantel human tablets online...


You said tablets? Will tablets do? As I think I can get tablets here at medical stores.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

i think you have them on terrace right?? ants live underground...so they have just made a tunnel to the terrace...find the opening and close it with cement. i used chalk but mortein red hit works even better... just spray it around the corners and where ever you see ants...it wont harm pigeons at all!!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

No, they are in my room now, I don't open them on terrace. I have no solution for ants here, they can come from anywhere. In kitchen we can't keep anything for even an hour without a boundary line of hit chalk else in every thing there comes hundreds of ants immediately. Even these come on our beds, on floor everywhere. There are thousands of holes, all can't be closed. Earlier it was hard to believe for us to have so many ants anywhere but since shifted to this home, came to know about how ants can bother humans and disturb their lives  seriously. 
There is no way to get rid of them, they are on floors every time, even appear within minutes after mopping. I never saw so many red ants anywhere. Even they bit us hard, daily we experience 3-4 times or some day more that that.. Lol


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Albendazole will affect health of your bird more if your bird is heavily infested with worms. If the bird is less infested then it might hurt your bird less. I'm not saying use albendazole. But people use it and say its fine for pigeons. If you don't have any other meds then you'll have to go with it.
BendyStar has praziqental in it. So look out for it.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes tabs will work. Get them and tell us their strength


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

As you told me about your two pigeons, I am afraid of using Albandazole, will look for Praziquantel tomorrow for sure, even if tabs. Thanks


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

kiddy said:


> did you notice tapeworm segments in poop? This is something like tapeworm segments? But I have no experience with them.
> And yes there is no foul odour in droppings.


There are no such segments, it looks rather like undigested rice. I once had a pigeon with tapeworm and after treating with flubendazole, passed a segment. It look somehow like an earthworm but with some more elaborated anatomy and of whitish color. Here is the photo:












Also, the droppings were not at all like this, but some sort of long tube - shaped, dark green feces (5 mm in diameter) in a pool of liquid with an unusual smelling. And every 3 days, she was passing some sort of gelatine with the poop, that lately was accompanied by fresh blood. I made a lab test with that gelatine and was found that were taenia eggs. Here is the egg-containing "gelatine":










So don't treat with Prazi, it surely is not tapeworm. It may be hair or round worms, for which I don't have experience, as I never had a clear case or found a visible worm.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Andrie : Google "tapeworm segments in pigeon poop" and click on " images " tab. 
Your may be an advanced case of tapeworm so the Pigeon was passing unusual droppings. 
Also I have studied about tapeworms in my academics so I recognized them as tapeworm segments and then Google showed similar pictures. 
I have seen round worms too recently and started a thread earlier on the same :

www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/seems-like-ascarisround-worm-in-pigeons-poop-here-is-the-pic-76680.html

There is a pic there of round worm in poop. Pls check.

If one can think, these may be round worm eggs, they cannot as round worm eggs can be seen only with the help of microscope. 

Hair worms look like long thin hairs so they are called hair worms,they aren't round /oval.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

kiddy said:


> Andrie : Google "tapeworm segments in pigeon poop" and click on " images " tab.


Google returns all kind of images, most of them without representing your search, because it uses to return ANY images from the webpages it found to contain those keywords. For example, if on the webpage of a newspaper is present the word "tapeworm" in the text body of one article about pigeons and, at other article with completely different subject like, say, weather is a photo with a cloud, Google may return at your search for tapeworm a photo with that cloud.

And in my photo there really is a tapeworm, is confirmed by two vets who have seen the photo.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AndreiS said:


> There are no such segments, it looks rather like undigested rice. I once had a pigeon with tapeworm and after treating with flubendazole, passed a segment. It look somehow like an earthworm but with some more elaborated anatomy and of whitish color. Here is the photo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Call me crazy...but neither picture looks like worms. The first picture looks like old egg material. I've had hens with reproductive issues pass similar, several times.
The last picture may be similar in nature as well.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Agh that is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo gross, first one looks like snot and the other like tissue guts, ahg that is so nasty. I hope I NEVER see that come out of any of my birds. yuk.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

AndreiS said:


> Google returns all kind of images, most of them without representing your search, because it uses to return ANY images from the webpages it found to contain those keywords. For example, if on the webpage of a newspaper is present the word "tapeworm" in the text body of one article about pigeons and, at other article with completely different subject like, say, weather is a photo with a cloud, Google may return at your search for tapeworm a photo with that cloud.
> 
> And in my photo there really is a tapeworm, is confirmed by two vets who have seen the photo.


I agree Andrie, but then there is an option to go to the site where the pic comes from to check the authenticity of pic and to know what they talk about that pic.

Go through the link below and see in tapeworms, they describe it in poop as similar to undigested rice grains in appearance :

www.melbournebirdvet.com/common-pigeon-disease-amp-treatments.aspx


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

ofcourse the segments in the poop of kiddy's bird are tapeworm segments....in fresh poop, you can see this segments moving!!...
many people say they use albomar [albendazole] dewormer, and it do no harm to pigeons....but praziquantel is more safe...


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Charis said:


> Call me crazy...but neither picture looks like worms. The first picture looks like old egg material. I've had hens with reproductive issues pass similar, several times.
> The last picture may be similar in nature as well.


It surely was tapeworm. As I said, a fecal was made and the typical packs with eggs of taenia were seen. I was left to look on microscope and saw myself those packs.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Yes tabs will work. Get them and tell us their strength



OK Jass, actually I bought two types of tablets in combination :

1) Bandy star plus tab:
Praziquantel IP 50 mg
Pyrantel Embonate IP 144 mg
Febantel IP (vet) 155 mg

2) IPRAZ tab:
Ivermectin IP 2 mg
Praziquantel IP 50mg

So which one should I give to them, how and how much? 
Should I treat all of them with it? 
I have already completed course for round worms with Pyrantel almost 5-6 days back, so will it be suitable to give them again in combination if I go for Bandy star plus. And is Febantel toxic? as Bandy star has this thing additional in it. 
If I go for second one that has Ivermectin additional in that.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

glad you got them...
bandy star plus is not good as it has febental...
you should use ipraz...jass will guide you with dosage...by the way where did you found ipraz?? i couldnt find it even in animal medical stores....!!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nare J said:


> glad you got them...
> bandy star plus is not good as it has febental...
> you should use ipraz...jass will guide you with dosage...by the way where did you found ipraz?? i couldnt find it even in animal medical stores....!!


A lot of hunt, at least 15- 16 human drug stores(fortunately all in same area) but none had that. Only one pet store was there who had IPRAZ. the vet I called yesterday had it with Febantel so that too was a waste to go. But thankfully I got it so glad


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

i read everywhere on internet that praziquantel is available for human easily in india but i search for it a lot and at evry single place, people made faces like they never heard of it
BTW dividing one ipraz tablet into 8 parts will be right dosage..i.e 6 mg praziquantel per pigeon. ivermectin wouldnt help in deworming for round worms as ivermectin dosage is 2mg per pigeon
and deworm your birds after 21 days and see and inform me if even that time they would pass tapeworms...because i beleive that tapeworms won't breed inside the pigeons body and increase their number....they need a intermeidiate host like ant or bug...but people always advice to deworm twice for tapeworms??


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hey!
Thank God you found Ipraz. I wasn't sure you would find Ipraz so didn't name it.
A'rgt,
A pigeon needs 6mg prazi and 0.35mg ivermectin.
Feed your pigeons lightly in the evening kiddy and give water to drink throught night. Then give the mentioned dosage next morning individually on empty crop and do not let them drink or feed. Then give water to drink after 2 hours but don't feed anything. Feed after 4 pm. You can repeat the process for 2 consecutive days as tapeworms aren't easy to target.
Treat all your birds at the same time. Repeat the whole deworming process after 21 days gap thrice, to get rid of tapes.
After deworming,give multivitamins in water the next day


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nare J said:


> i read everywhere on internet that praziquantel is available for human easily in india but i search for it a lot and at evry single place, people made faces like they never heard of it
> BTW dividing one ipraz tablet into 8 parts will be right dosage..i.e 6 mg praziquantel per pigeon. ivermectin wouldnt help in deworming for round worms as ivermectin dosage is 2mg per pigeon
> and deworm your birds after 21 days and see and inform me if even that time they would pass tapeworms...because i beleive that tapeworms won't breed inside the pigeons body and increase their number....they need a intermeidiate host like ant or bug...but people always advice to deworm twice for tapeworms??


Thanks Naresh. Have you tried ordering it online? There are sites on which it shows available, any luck with them?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Hey!
> Thank God you found Ipraz. I wasn't sure you would find Ipraz so didn't name it.
> A'rgt,
> A pigeon needs 6mg prazi and 0.35mg ivermectin.
> ...


 when I got Bandy star plus I thought that was what you suggested but when I saw ipraz and it was without pyrantel, I thought I should buy that too and ask you. Great to know, it is better. 
OK I will follow your suggestion, just one thing:
I have got one 2 months old fledgling , so is it safe for him with prescribed dosage? I know Praziquantel is toxic and i am a bit cautious in using it on my birds. And giving it on empty crops won't harm them?
Sorry for silly questions, a little worried actually


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

thanks jass for informing i thought ivermectin dosage was 2 mg...i think it was for pyrantel...
and kiddy....i was thinking about ordering meds online..but..i have to answer my parents....and they already think i m mad for pigeons....so not possible till my 12th boards are over


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh Naresh, same problem here, tho I completed studies and worked too, still everytime everyone instructs me to behave normally 
It is unusual for everyone to be so caring and loving for animals. But yes during boards you should concentrate on studies more ,tho I had many pets till your age, lol. But after 12th I stopped keeping them, got hurt badly of deaths of some of them.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

yah i know, this is turning point of our life....i leave for classes at 8 and go to college from there itself at 12 and return home at 5:30 and thats when i spend some time with pigeons..so i always keep them free..my parents are not worried about studies,they know whoever i will get good marks, they are worried because they think i worry/ get attached to much about pigeons..like bring supplements, preparing grit, feed and all...no one does that here..they who keep pigeons here ...just make a smal house keep feed and water and thats it..no grit, supplements or anything !!! so they also want me to do same...but i cant..!!...all this things are basic needs of pigeons...and people should understand it..


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Oh Wow! PT didn't allow me to post replies last night??? 

Pigeons aren't dewormed until 4 months of age but since the bird is infested go ahead kiddy and deworm all your birds.
Yes give med on empty crops, thats how it works


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Do you have garlic oil caps kiddy?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

There are many species of tapeworms worldwide. I've seen small and long-flat ones. Some are just few cms long, others stretch to some inches long in length. But I've never seen a tapeworm like in the pic Andre posted. So I say what Charis says.

Roundworms also vary in size, color and thickness. I've seen upto 500 roundworms in a single pigeon on necropsy. The bird was eaten inside out. That was gruesome. Roundworms are most common in pigeons and nothing nails them like pyrantel pamoate does.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

See round worms in one of my egg-sitting hen's poop.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jass SamOplay said:


> But I've never seen a tapeworm like in the pic Andre posted. So I say what Charis says.


That was only a fragment. Later the tapeworm rebuilt itself and got stronger. It didn't respond to prazinquatel (though I'm not sure I dosed correctly, as was a tablet for dogs), neither to flubendazole. Finally, the pigeon got crop complications and died suffocated by the water from crop (most common death at the sick pigeons I cared).


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Oh Wow! PT didn't allow me to post replies last night???
> 
> Pigeons aren't dewormed until 4 months of age but since the bird is infested go ahead kiddy and deworm all your birds.
> Yes give med on empty crops, thats how it works



You weren't able to post? And I was waiting for your reply and so didn't treat them today 
So if I do not treat him? He lives outside of cage and rest are in cages so in that way separated? He is weaned late and doesn't pick up much so worried about him if the drug is toxic to him in any way. Quite stressed


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Do you have garlic oil caps kiddy?


No I haven't got that, I couldn't find them yet but I have asked a pet store concerned to get it for me. Should I wait for that? I am thinking to medicate them tomorrow morning, today gave feed as you suggested.

Garlic pearls for humans or pets? I couldn't get at human store?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> There are many species of tapeworms worldwide. I've seen small and long-flat ones. Some are just few cms long, others stretch to some inches long in length. But I've never seen a tapeworm like in the pic Andre posted. So I say what Charis says.
> 
> Roundworms also vary in size, color and thickness. I've seen upto 500 roundworms in a single pigeon on necropsy. The bird was eaten inside out. That was gruesome. Roundworms are most common in pigeons and nothing nails them like pyrantel pamoate does.




Oh I saw just one in my pigeon's poop and I had brain full of worries, how do you manage I don't know!!! 
So you will treat the whole flock now? With medicated water?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nare J said:


> yah i know, this is turning point of our life....i leave for classes at 8 and go to college from there itself at 12 and return home at 5:30 and thats when i spend some time with pigeons..so i always keep them free..my parents are not worried about studies,they know whoever i will get good marks, they are worried because they think i worry/ get attached to much about pigeons..like bring supplements, preparing grit, feed and all...no one does that here..they who keep pigeons here ...just make a smal house keep feed and water and thats it..no grit, supplements or anything !!! so they also want me to do same...but i cant..!!...all this things are basic needs of pigeons...and people should understand it..


Yes true but they hardly understand. I wanted to have capuchines, black ones, fantails but since no family support and always stressing, I plan to have no more


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

kiddy said:


> Yes true but they hardly understand. I wanted to have capuchines, black ones, fantails but since no family support and always stressing, I plan to have no more


kiddy, it must be hard for you to keep pigeons indoor. i think you should make a small loft with small flight pen outside on terrace, this can make things easy for you and you can also get a pair of fantails and capucines..
what are the prices there?? just want to compare with here...i.e 600rs for any flying breed pair and 800rs for any fancy breed pair in pet shops...!!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nare J said:


> kiddy, it must be hard for you to keep pigeons indoor. i think you should make a small loft with small flight pen outside on terrace, this can make things easy for you and you can also get a pair of fantails and capucines..
> what are the prices there?? just want to compare with here...i.e 600rs for any flying breed pair and 800rs for any fancy breed pair in pet shops...!!


No one allows me to build anything so I keep them with me 
Here all depends, everyone has their own price. Market is held on Sunday just a pigeon market and it is so crowded you can't stand easily there. First of all I went there at closing time so only one seller remained with 5 pigeons and he gave me pair for rs 200 as he was winding up. 
Then my hen flew and I went back to buy one hen and that was peak time so I got her for rs 200(single hen). And I saw different rates for different breeds. as it was so crowded I couldn't explore whole market but I remember I asked and it was rps 750/ pair which I got maximum among the pair rates I asked for. Those were white but huge sized and one pair of grizzled black and white, those too were huge. Common price were Rps 400/pair for what I have i.e common high flyers but of course there were large price variations for qualities like people were checking their wings, and probably eyes etc. 
I couldn't see fancy pigeons there, may be because of crowd I couldn't go in. Then I checked online to see the price in my nearby areas and they have fantails for rps 4500/pair (quite costly), although in other cities like Delhi it was showing Rps 2500 per pair. So huge variations and think we need to bargain before buying. 
Surprised to know that there it is for 800/pair? You are talking about capuchin and fantails? It is quite cheaper comparatively?


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

here i only find highflyers of different types, fantail and capucine pigeons. if we buy from breeders,cost varies according to breed but in pet shops, any breed flying pigeons is for 300rs and fancies like fantail are 400rs....most people here only buy highflyers and not many people are interested in fantails and capucines so i think this is the reason their price is so low...


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Really surprised  
Never thought of fantail for Rps 400, if I buy them, I will contact some pet shop person there to book them for my city, but right now no chances


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

kiddy said:


> No I haven't got that, I couldn't find them yet but I have asked a pet store concerned to get it for me. Should I wait for that? I am thinking to medicate them tomorrow morning, today gave feed as you suggested.
> 
> Garlic pearls for humans or pets? I couldn't get at human store?


Ranbaxy garlic pearls are available. They are softgels that cost rs 15 each strip. They help to build immunity and parasites under control.
I think you must deworm your birds


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Ranbaxy garlic pearls are available. They are softgels that cost rs 15 each strip. They help to build immunity and parasites under control.
> I think you must deworm your birds


Where do you get that, on human drug stores or pet stores? I have asked at both, now will start calling others once you tell me, should I contact humans or pets ones?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

They're available on stores for humans. They can be found easily on stores which keep ayurvedic meds. Here they're available at every med shop.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

kiddy said:


> Oh I saw just one in my pigeon's poop and I had brain full of worries, how do you manage I don't know!!!
> So you will treat the whole flock now? With medicated water?


Worms affect pigeons hugely. Their source must be identified like infected feed or bugs. Most important is to stop birds from re-infection. Scraping drops daily and spraying loft with permethrin spray is must to stop re-infection. Clean food and water goes without saying.
Yes,I flock treat my birds for worms. 
You too,do clean your loft after deworming.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

AndreiS said:


> That was only a fragment. Later the tapeworm rebuilt itself and got stronger. It didn't respond to prazinquatel (though I'm not sure I dosed correctly, as was a tablet for dogs), neither to flubendazole. Finally, the pigeon got crop complications and died suffocated by the water from crop (most common death at the sick pigeons I cared).


Hmmmmm... Sorry for the loss


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> They're available on stores for humans. They can be found easily on stores which keep ayurvedic meds. Here they're available at every med shop.


OK I will look for it on allopathic+ ayurvedic.here it hasn't seemed easy to get them


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Worms affect pigeons hugely. Their source must be identified like infected feed or bugs. Most important is to stop birds from re-infection. Scraping drops daily and spraying loft with permethrin spray is must to stop re-infection. Clean food and water goes without saying.
> Yes,I flock treat my birds for worms.
> You too,do clean your loft after deworming.


I don't have a loft, i keep them in my room in cages and open within room. Room is mopped daily so I don't know why this infection existed and where from.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Your feed may have weevils. You might not see them.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi Kiddy,
This is what the bottle looks like,in case you wanna see; it comes for 95rs and have 100 soft gels in it. I posted a pic for easy identification.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Kiddy hope your fledgling is all better soon!


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

hey jass, now on my way to classes i will ask for ranbaxy garlic caps strips in medical stores. i usually made garlic water once a week but my birds dont like to drink it..some birds will drink water from the flower pot tray if i add garlic....what is the dosage??once a week??


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Your feed may have weevils. You might not see them.


Don't know Jass, I bought it fresh and can't see anything in that? They cannot be that small? Or really can't be seen?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Hi Kiddy,
> This is what the bottle looks like,in case you wanna see; it comes for 95rs and have 100 soft gels in it. I posted a pic for easy identification.



Thanks Jass. It is so nice of you to post the image. Yes it will be easy for me now . thank you so much. Will tell you once I find it.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

*Do they vomit out the medicine?*

Hey Jass, 
I gave them all 6mg ipraz in morning and monitored for any odd behavior for 5-10 minutes and then I left them for some other work. After almost half an hour when I went back to them, I saw some mucous on the cage bars along with some yellow drop, probably medicine? But didn't look like medicine, don't know. May be he has vomited it out as there was mucous? And he is the same whose poop had fragments. May be due to emptied stomach they vomit? 
So now? It is quite complicated, I took two days to medicate them just because of worries if it is harmful but now when given, looks like he vomited it? 
Rest all are OK with medicine. Now what? Again tomorrow in morning? so sad


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

cwebster said:


> Kiddy hope your fledgling is all better soon!


Yes cwebster thank you, really hope so....


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh I saw this in my fledgling's one single poop after some time of my last post. 
In other droppings only two more fragments. Nothing noticed in anyone else's. 
Now I know how much he has been suffering. So sad.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Oh no! Your bird could be considerably infested. And worms also, do make pigeons vommit.
Feed the pigeon lightly and let him drink water throught night. Next morning cut the ipraz tab and powder it first before giving the 6mg dose on empty stomach. DON'T feed your pigeon is the morning. Hold water for 2 hours after giving med. Feed the bird only after 4pm. You'll have to be rude with him to do nice to him.

Above pic shows a tapeworm. There could be more in your pigeon's body. Keep cleaning the place where you keep pigeons to avoid reinfection. Note the date in calender and set a reminder you will have to deworm all your pigeons positively after 21 days gap.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Oh no! Your bird could be considerably infested. And worms also, do make pigeons vommit.
> Feed the pigeon lightly and let him drink water throught night. Next morning cut the ipraz tab and powder it first before giving the 6mg dose on empty stomach. DON'T feed your pigeon is the morning. Hold water for 2 hours after giving med. Feed the bird only after 4pm. You'll have to be rude with him to do nice to him.
> 
> Above pic shows a tapeworm. There could be more in your pigeon's body. Keep cleaning the place where you keep pigeons to avoid reinfection. Note the date in calender and set a reminder you will have to deworm all your pigeons positively after 21 days gap.


I have medicated them all today as per your advice, should I medicate them again tomorrow? He passed worms after deworming. Even I saw 1/4 of tapeworm part in hen 's poop too.
Also he vomited something after medicating may be because of bad taste?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Nare J said:


> hey jass, now on my way to classes i will ask for ranbaxy garlic caps strips in medical stores. i usually made garlic water once a week but my birds dont like to drink it..some birds will drink water from the flower pot tray if i add garlic....what is the dosage??once a week??


I puncture open one capsule at a time and squeeze it to spread it evenly over 2 handfuls of feed. Then I mix it or skake the feed. My pigeons don't hesitate eating that feedmix. I give garlic caps that way twice weekly. Now its raining daily here and my birds are moulting heavily so I give calcium and garlic daily. Here in north, birds moult in this season to prepare for coming winters ahead. I don't think pigeons moult heavily in central India in this season.

One of our members give garlic oil caps to her pigeons on alternative days regularly. She claims her pigeons never got ill in 7 years and never developed internal parasites. Maybe because she keeps her pigeons indoors


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Don't worry if they vommit. They will be fine. Medicate only the bird in question if others are fine. The reason behind you were adviced not to feed them heavily in the evening was to stop them from vommiting. The med shall not be vommit out so powder the med


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

But today when I gave them feed at 4 pm they all ate a lot. It wasn't a light meal as they all were hungry since yesterday. I am thinking to medicate my hen too, as she too passed the tapeworm.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

hii jass i sent a msg on lice again, plz check ur inbox,i need ur advice ....thanks


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I medicated hen and my fledgling today too but this time see no one passing worm. Will again medicate on 22nd day from now. 
And thanks Jass, I got garlic pearls this time, have to look at some more human drug stores and got from one of them. 
My pigeons too are molting these days and now almost over, they are almost grown their new feathers now. So should I too given them calcium and garlic pearls daily as you suggested and one capsule for 4 pigeons? Will it be OK? as I have just 4.
I couldn't get Protech BS yet. People actually have prebiotic+probiotic here for humans. I am attaching a pic here. Will it cover all things what they require? or pls tell me what contents Protech BS has? Or pls post a pic of the same . You said this is for poultry use but here pet stores don't keep poultry products.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

What? Your birds are moulting? You never told before. I wouldn't have advised to deworm then. Pigeons aren't dewormed during moulting(note it for future). Give your pigeons multivitamins. Yes this probiotic may do for now, administer them. I will post content of P BS when I get home.

I'm giving calcium water in the morning. My pigeons are showing signs of calcium deficiency so I'm giving it to them daily. I dissolve calcium in that much water which they will drink till 3pm that's when I come back home from work. I remove this water when I come home. Then I feed them garlic oil added feed at 6 pm with plain water to drink. Yes one capsule will be good for 4


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I thought you know this is the molting season but when you said pigeons don't molt in central India these days to Naresh, I told you about here 
Is it harmful for them to deworm while molting?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jass SamOplay said:


> I'm giving calcium water in the morning. My pigeons are showing signs of calcium deficiency so I'm giving it to them daily. I dissolve calcium in that much water which they will drink till 3pm that's when I come back home from work. I remove this water when I come home. Then I feed them garlic oil added feed at 6 pm with plain water to drink. Yes one capsule will be good for 4


What are the signs of calcium deficiency and what kind of calcium arer you giving them?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes. But its done now.
Give them multivitamins dissolved in drinking water. They will be fine


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Sad, I thought two days to medicate them but couldn't think of this point, don't know why. 
Now my syrup has vitamins +minerals, is it OK to dissolve in water to give? It is not just vitamins.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes vitamins dissolved in drinking water is the best way to give. They sip water again and again in small quantities which doesn't put stress on liver.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Andre, some of my birds showed poor quality of new growing feathers and one of my squabs actually two of my squabs had bent fingers. After only 3 days of calcium they've shown good improvement. Fingers of one squab got fine and of other one is on the way to recovery. New feathers are growing good now. I had stopped giving calcium because my hens lay a lot but now I've again started my birds on calcium gluconate/carbonate mixed in drinking water to help them during moult.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Andre, some of my birds showed poor quality of new growing feathers and one of my squabs actually two of my squabs had bent fingers. After only 3 days of calcium they've shown good improvement. Fingers of one squab got fine and of other one is on the way to recovery. New feathers are growing good now. I had stopped giving calcium because my hens lay a lot but now I've again started my birds on calcium gluconate/carbonate mixed in drinking water to help them during moult.


Thank you!

Can you tell me how much calcium gluconate are you puting in water?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

1 tsp in a gallon


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you! A teaspon (measure unit) is 5 ml, which seems little for 1 gallon.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks Jass, my birds are doing fine now. And I searched over Internet and came to know that Ivermectin and Praziquantel has got no side effects even during molting but fenbebdazole affect on their molting so not to be recommended while molting. 
I gave them garlic pearl today, vitamins in water and calcium 1/8 of cipcal in mouth. 
I haven't bought that probiotic yet as didn't know it will be helpful but as you say I will buy it. Was still waiting for Protech BS contents 

Well thanks for everything, you are of great help 

P.S I don't have powdered calcium so I give them cipcal in mouth, how often should I give them these days while their molting is almost over, but still some new feathers are on their way to grow.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I once lost 9 pigeons to injectable ivermectin they showed signs of nervous system malfunctions. They twisted their heads before dying. They died with two days. So at first I thought was paratyphoid. But later I realised my mistake. Ivermectin and Praziquental are poisons after all and they too, can affect birds if overdosed or if the bird is sick or if worm infestation is high. I've observed feather deformations during moulting if dewormed. These are the things I personally witnessed.

You can give calcium by mouth with a gap of 2 days.

Protech BS isn't a probiotic only. Its a blend of probiotics+toxin binders+its has something for pathogen control too. It comes in a poly bag. So I transfered the contents into an air tight container when opened it so that it doesn't catch moisture. I threw its polythene away. but I will try to post what I can remember


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

If you haven't bought the above probiotics then don't buy them for now. Look out for Gutwell on pet stores.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Andre, I meant 1 tablespoon. Sorry, my bad O_O

23% calcium gluconate can be dosed at 1ml to 30ml of drinking water once a week. This was recommended to me by a famous vet. I myself don't give calcium at this much dosage to my pigeons though.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> I once lost 9 pigeons to injectable ivermectin they showed signs of nervous system malfunctions. They twisted their heads before dying. They died with two days. So at first I thought was paratyphoid. But later I realised my mistake. Ivermectin and Praziquental are poisons after all and they too, can affect birds if overdosed or if the bird is sick or if worm infestation is high. I've observed feather deformations during moulting if dewormed. These are the things I personally witnessed.
> 
> You can give calcium by mouth with a gap of 2 days.
> 
> Protech BS isn't a probiotic only. Its a blend of probiotics+toxin binders+its has something for pathogen control too. It comes in a poly bag. So I transfered the contents into an air tight container when opened it so that it doesn't catch moisture. I threw its polythene away. but I will try to post what I can remember


Oh sorry to hear about your loss. This is the reason I fear of diseases coz even medicines are toxic. 
I wrote what I read but I believe in your experience more. 
OK will look for Gutwell. Is it for poultry use or dog and cats? Here only dogs and cats stuff at pet stores


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

If you can find stuff for dogs then you can find gutwell there cuz its meant for dogs. Probiotics for birds might also be available there where they sell finches, budgies etc. Do you have a poultry farm near you? They could have everything you need, or atleast the employees there would know from where to get the drugs,


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

OK I will buy gutwell then if I get it there. 
I don't see finches and budgies at any pet stores here, people sell them door to door with cages. 
No, I don't know about any poultry farm here but I will ask someone . I had this in my mind but don't have much idea of this city being new to us.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi kiddy,
I went to the pet store and clicked its pic. Sorry no detailed info was printed on it.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh thanks so much for the pic. It is OK, I will try if I can get from the same manufacturer online. Thanks


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