# Black to black



## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

Hi All,
I was hoping someone could explain how Ash red works.
I have two pairs go black budapest tumblers. Because they were all black, I expected only blacks or blue offspring.
I looked at a fledge that's is now graduated to the adolescent loft and was surprised to see it was ash red check?
Being that red is dominate, is ash red a modifier with red being a phenotype instead of genotype?
I am excited as it's a beautiful bird, but confused! 
I don't know the parentage of these birds.
Thanks!


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Are you 100% sure the hen didn't cheat? 

Ash red is the color name, it is dominant to blue and both are over brown.
One of the parents would have to show it unless it was covered by something like white or recessive red.
Two spread blacks could only produce blue or brown based birds.

Tim


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

That's what I thought.
I'm certain there was no cheating as that loft has only the four original birds and their offspring...
I'll snap some pictures tomorrow... The bird in question has the red checker body but blue tail.
Am I right in calling this ash red?
Thanks!


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

If it has a blue tail it may be a poor recessive red with some mottling on the wings to make it look like checks. If it has a band on the tail then it is not ash red. Could be brown check. 

Ash reds have a light ashy colored to nearly white tail.

Tim


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

Hmm. Ok, maybe brown then?
I'll check it out tomorrow more closely.
Brown would mean hen, correct?
Thanks!


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Yep it would have to be a hen if it is brown.

Tim


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

OK let me see if I can get these pictures up.
This guy has a redder tint around his neck, but seems more brown or dirty blue though as a chick didn't show the black points a dirty chick would have.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

That bird is not an ash red. It has a terminal tail bar. It is either brown or dun (dilute blue). I suspect it is dun, but it is hard to tell with a picture. Dilute could hide in blacks very easily but so could brown.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Correct me if i am wrong

But to my understanding this bird will be a hen, whether dilute or brown

Since both dilute and brown are sex linked - if the hen carried them, she'd show it

Since both your birds are black, the chick can only be carrying one dose of dilute (from the dad) - and for one dose to show as a dilute bird - she must be a hen


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Yep either way it should be a hen... at least from my limited knowledge. 
Pretty bird. Before it feathered out did it have normal down? Dilutes have little or no down.

Tim


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

I don't think any one ever addressed the question of how ash red works.

Ash Red is the most dominate gene in the three primary colors. The other two being blue/black and brown. Ash red has a huge number of expressions depending on the other modifiers present. The one trait that is generally recognizable in all ash red birds is the tendency for the flights and tail to wash out to an ashy gray coloration, and for the tail to not show the terminal tail bar.

The expression of Ash Red on a black (spread) pigeon is largely determined by the wing pattern of the bird. A T-Check is usually are dark mahogany color; bar is usually a light silvery ash color, and Check bird appear in a range between those two. Birds with this combination and bronze can be brick red in the T-Pattern, and show no pattern to a bronze bar in the barred birds. I have seen spread ash barred birds that looked like ash red bars. You would not know the birds carried spread until you bred them to a blue pigeon and got blacks.


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