# Trenton Racing Pigeons



## C.DAHLEN

Anybody in this group fly (race) Trenton pigeons? How do they perform for you? 

Last year a friend of mine gave me six Yellow Trentons that i put with my young bird race team. 
When i got to the 50-70 mile training toss, i started losing them. 
I was told that Trentons are good long distance birds, so i wonder what happened?


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## blongboy

C.DAHLEN said:


> Anybody in this group fly (race) Trenton pigeons? How do they perform for you?
> 
> Last year a friend of mine gave me six Yellow Trentons that i put with my young bird race team.
> When i got to the 50-70 mile training toss, i started losing them.
> I was told that Trentons are good long distance birds, so i wonder what happened?


i dont know much, but some trentons now are breed for their color


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## Caden's Aviary

There was a thread oh here not long ago about somebody buying some white Trentons for like $90 a pair or something. Alot of the people on here said that was too much and that pure Trentons no longer existed because most of the people maintaining the line have died. Seems like they said the birds now called Trentons got their name from a resemblance of the old line.


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## blongboy

Caden's Aviary said:


> There was a thread oh here not long ago about somebody buying some white Trentons for like $90 a pair or something. Alot of the people on here said that was too much and that pure Trentons no longer existed because most of the people maintaining the line have died. Seems like they said the birds now called Trentons got their name from a resemblance of the old line.


their are still people out their with very good trentons blodline that will fly that 1000 mile.


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## conditionfreak

I bought one young rust colored Trenton in an auction and lost it early in training. That is my only experience recently. But I used to have them back in the late 70's-early 80's, and they were very reliable long distance birds.

I would assume that there are not many, if any, so called "pure lines" of Trentons around. Possibly some, but I think you would have to look long and hard to find any that were not crossed, and yet still not imbred so much that they are puny and weak.


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## ohiogsp

blongboy said:


> their are still people out their with very good trentons blodline that will fly that 1000 mile.




Who flies 1000 miles? My club used to the past ( and they used trentons,abelines, exc. ) but was unaware that anyone does anymore.


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## ohiogsp

I can tell you this for sure I race with one of the biggest trenton guys there is, every weekend. He raced the 1000 miles with trentons many years. If I asked him for some old trenton blood like they used to fly from 1000 miles he would have a good laugh for sure.


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## Wingsonfire

ohiogsp said:


> I can tell you this for sure I race with one of the biggest trenton guys there is, every weekend. He raced the 1000 miles with trentons many years. If I asked him for some old trenton blood like they used to fly from 1000 miles he would have a good laugh for sure.


Why is that, because his cant do the 1k or there are no pure Trentons anymore or because he thinks his are just the best?


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## blongboy

ohiogsp said:


> I can tell you this for sure I race with one of the biggest trenton guys there is, every weekend. He raced the 1000 miles with trentons many years. If I asked him for some old trenton blood like they used to fly from 1000 miles he would have a good laugh for sure.


i said 1000 not 100


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## ohiogsp

blongboy said:


> i said 1000 not 100


Iss thaat betterrr? Stuupidd ttypooos


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## Wingsonfire

conditionfreak said:


> I bought one young rust colored Trenton in an auction and lost it early in training. That is my only experience recently. But I used to have them back in the late 70's-early 80's, and they were very reliable long distance birds.
> 
> I would assume that there are not many, if any, so called "pure lines" of Trentons around. Possibly some, but I think you would have to look long and hard to find any that were not crossed, and yet still not imbred so much that they are puny and weak.


You should have started it at 500 miles


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## ohiogsp

Wingsonfire said:


> Why is that, because his cant do the 1k or there are no pure Trentons anymore or because he thinks his are just the best?



Well first he would say there are no pigeons like that anymore. Then he would say the reason we quit flying the 1000 is because so many birds were lost people would not enter the race anymore. I know he would say this because I have already heard it. 

If people had not lost so many birds doing it, it would have continued and we would have trenton "like" birds that could do 1000 miles today because they would still be proven to do so. There is no way to select 1000 mile stock 2 day therefore it does not exist. This last part is my opinion.


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## hilltop

blongboy said:


> their are still people out their with very good trentons blodline that will fly that 1000 mile.


Blongboy, DO U Know any one flying 1000 mi Trentons ??? I am un able to find a flyer today...! I go back a long way, when Trentons were Terrors for 1000 mi and people like the late Milt Haffner and my relation conversed on the phone, I rember Milts..Abilenes,, an why he named them that way...the good old days..I would like to converse with a 1000 mi flyer today...!! THANKS.....Harry


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## zeeshanali

friends have u heard of pakistani high flying pigeons they are best racing pigeons in world,they keep flying for something like 12 hours or more...


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## sky tx

Post your race results--Distances? Speed?


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## hilltop

IF u read some of these "athorities" on these sites ...NOTHING IS PURE..! the feeling is the pigeon men in the USA,,are too stupid to keep a strain or family of birds in tact, its bad for the sport,,A good Example is the late John Garzoli Passed not long ago...his birds were bred true,for many many years(obtained from the old masters) Yet these experts will have u believe they are not..the Real Deal.... the real fact is in USA we like and lean towards Pure Stuff [ we will do our own thing ]..Like I say ITS BAD FOR OUR SPORT...KEEP EM FLYING...


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## RodSD

I suppose if you breed only for strains/family, then sooner or later it will bite you in the end because you are suppose to be selecting for performance. There is similarity for breeding for color as well.


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## re lee

There is no breed of pigeon that Called trenton, sion or any name like that. There is though a breed called a Racing homer. Homer for short. Its about doing what you can do to keep the breed strong And if that means crossing a strain line to keep it going strong so be it. Trenton birds go back over 100 years. And would be hard to keep that family line socalled pure NO out cross EVER in over 100 years. but any way Trenton bred birds DID becaom world renound because they could race the long races 1000 mile races is something to see. Can it be done by birds today. YES if bred right. BUT not to many people are interested in pushing there birds that far. We do owe a thanks to the people of that past that spread there birds around And to go forward people still have to work on there own birds. After all it is the person racing there birds that needs to improve What they have Thats what is good for the sport not sitting still in time Selection selection selection. No matter what breed what strain One must select the best that represent the need. And the best does not have to be some race winner but the bird able to breed a race winner. 100 years from now can the todays bird work with out some kind of selection. And if a bird with the treton name still is be used And can win fine. but it still is a racing homer As that is the breed


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## hilltop

sorry Rod & lee ,,I was under the impression u guys "KNEW"how to handle and breed these birds,,," For best results"..the key words are " U GOTTA START SOMEPLACE"....COLOR is a different thread ,,another time,,IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO BREED YOUR WAY...!..TO ME THEY ARE MONGRELS.....or MUTTS..SO LIKE I SAID BEFORE: " YOU COULDNT RUN FAST ENOUGH TO 'GIVE'ME YOUR VERY BEST BIRD... I want good constance in my family...u dont know what to even call your mutts???...I dont agree with u ...at all..I think Rod is a color breeder...from another site ...? Regards...P.S. to u other guys some are saying that shipping is too costly for 1000 mi...??..I thought once or twice a yr would work...?...


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## g0ldenb0y55

"It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks" is what comes to mind here. 

Breeding for performance through selective breeding is what will keep your loft in good shape for years to come. IMHO

How do you think those 1000 mile birds came to be? Did they just all of a sudden appear out of nowhere and started winning those long races? NO!, someone, through selective breeding bred those birds to perform for that 1000 mile race. Just like most of us do for the types of races we enter today.


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## 2y4life

zeeshanali said:


> friends have u heard of pakistani high flying pigeons they are best racing pigeons in world,they keep flying for something like 12 hours or more...


There are other tipplers that fly for 20+ hours... and lol at best racing pigeons. They are great at flying for a long time and not racing.


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## rpalmer

hilltop said:


> Blongboy, DO U Know any one flying 1000 mi Trentons ??? I am un able to find a flyer today...! I go back a long way, when Trentons were Terrors for 1000 mi and people like the late Milt Haffner and my relation conversed on the phone, I rember Milts..Abilenes,, an why he named them that way...the good old days..I would like to converse with a 1000 mi flyer today...!! THANKS.....Harry


Your statement is very misleading. It suggests that Trentons can not fly 1K today because they have lost the ability to do so. The truth is that there are no 1K races. 

Trentons are not just for 1K races. And they do well in 3, 5 and 600 mile races today. I can drop names as well as anyone so I'll say that I have Oshaben Trentons bred by Chuck Oshaben, son to Ed Oshaben. My birds are very young and untested. They have an incredible station and since you look at your pedigrees I'll tell you that mine are very impressive. I plan to work them slowly and enter them in races in earnest when they turn three years old. And before you comment on that, tell it to Renier Gurnay first. I doubt you are a better pigeon man that he was.


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## hilltop

I dont think u guys are reading my threads correctly,,,,I am trying to promote 1000 mi races,,again,,,U guys were very fast to 'jump' on my threads,,,,I personally knew and visited many of these old masters,,,with my DAD.... I have 65 yrs experience with pigeons + yrs from my DAD...so well over 100 yrs,of the best experience,, one of u spoke of gurnays..they are mutts according to some on this site...they are crossed till there no longer is a gurnay.".Dont jump on me"..I didnt do it...there are no TRENTONS..SIONS...they are all just HOMERS..this is what ive learned here...so dont blame me...!...U say 'old dog new tricks" at over 70 yrs flying & LEARNING EVERY DAY I LEARNED A BUNCH.....!.. I TALKED TO ..ED,OSHABEN TO TELL HIM I FOUND THE BIRDS HE WAS LOOKING FOR,,JUST 2 NIGHTS BEFORE HE PASSED...


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## hilltop

HEY PALMER, there is no such thing as trenton,,,read the threads,,,,u got homers....am I right... Lee..??


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## Matt Bell

hilltop said:


> HEY PALMER, there is no such thing as trenton,,,read the threads,,,,u got homers....am I right... Lee..??


Scientifically speaking they are not even homers, they are rock doves, Genus Columba species livia...you all are acting like a bunch of children.


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## re lee

hilltop said:


> HEY PALMER, there is no such thing as trenton,,,read the threads,,,,u got homers....am I right... Lee..??


So much could be said Try reading from this web page and it makes One understand a little more www.silvio-co.com./pigeons/strains,htm


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## RodSD

Hilltop,

I am assuming that if there is still those pure Trentons, Sions, Gurnays, they have been inbreed, linebreed, never crossed with others so the line so to speak continues.

But, I have observed that very inbreed birds seem to lack vigor. They may even prone to diseases. How would they compete with such disadvantage?

Back when eggbid was still in existence, Oshaben's daughter was selling several pure Trentons. Those birds do look like Trentons. With respect to their performances I don't know how they perform though.

I suppose if we only care about performance, it doesn't matter what color or family/strain the bird is. 

But you are right. I partly breed some color birds because I appreciate their beauty. I also breed for performance with another lines--those are just my checkers and blue bars or basically birds that can outperform my colored birds. I don't combine these two. I know where to draw the line.

If I have it my way I want a very beautiful looking homers with different colors that can perform. But it is hard to breed color and performance at the same time. I mean if you have a very beautiful looking bird, you don't feel like tossing it. But then how would you know if the bird can perform?


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## lawman

rpalmer said:


> Your statement is very misleading. It suggests that Trentons can not fly 1K today because they have lost the ability to do so. *The truth is that there are no 1K races. *
> 
> Trentons are not just for 1K races. And they do well in 3, 5 and 600 mile races today. I can drop names as well as anyone so I'll say that I have Oshaben Trentons bred by Chuck Oshaben, son to Ed Oshaben. My birds are very young and untested. They have an incredible station and since you look at your pedigrees I'll tell you that mine are very impressive. I plan to work them slowly and enter them in races in earnest when they turn three years old. And before you comment on that, tell it to Renier Gurnay first. I doubt you are a better pigeon man that he was.


Not true, there are still 800 1000 and 1200 plus mile races! Problem is you have to go to Auzzy land to find them and participate in them. From what I understand most of their best long distance birds carry a combination of Jan Arden, old Beckart and old sion blood with some of the old and I do mean old trenton blood mixed in.


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## rpalmer

lawman said:


> Not true, there are still 800 1000 and 1200 plus mile races! Problem is you have to go to Auzzy land to find them and participate in them. From what I understand most of their best long distance birds carry a combination of Jan Arden, old Beckart and old sion blood with some of the old and I do mean old trenton blood mixed in.


I had not considered the world when I posted. Just the U.S.. Go figure.


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## Jaysen

So the rough math on a 1K race would be about $1000 in truck costs (fuel, motel, food). The larger problem would be the multi-day driving or multi-driver requirement. With the smaller club sizes and larger spreads in most places (NYC, Fl, and a few others excepted), it would seem that one would need to do a 1K+ as part of a one loft to make it viable. Maybe a one loft "long distance proving ground" doing a series of races from 3, 5, 7, 10, 13, and 16 hundred. Don't send a sprint bird. 

I have to tell you, that sounds very interesting to me. Given my location, if I were planning this I would:
* Look to use rail for the transport
* Try to enlist mid west clubs to receive birds for races and act as liberators
* Consider a race cycle to be a 2 year program where year one is all about settling and training
* Then the races split between spring (April/May) and fall (Sep/Oct) to reduce heat concerns. 

This actually sounds fun to me. I need to stop thinking about it immediately.


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## rpalmer

Jaysen said:


> So the rough math on a 1K race would be about $1000 in truck costs (fuel, motel, food). The larger problem would be the multi-day driving or multi-driver requirement. With the smaller club sizes and larger spreads in most places (NYC, Fl, and a few others excepted), it would seem that one would need to do a 1K+ as part of a one loft to make it viable. Maybe a one loft "long distance proving ground" doing a series of races from 3, 5, 7, 10, 13, and 16 hundred. Don't send a sprint bird.
> 
> I have to tell you, that sounds very interesting to me. Given my location, if I were planning this I would:
> * Look to use rail for the transport
> * Try to enlist mid west clubs to receive birds for races and act as liberators
> * Consider a race cycle to be a 2 year program where year one is all about settling and training
> * Then the races split between spring (April/May) and fall (Sep/Oct) to reduce heat concerns.
> 
> This actually sounds fun to me. I need to stop thinking about it immediately.


I think a dollar a mile sounds a little high for transport costs. I do think the best way to drive them 1K would be with two drivers and get the birds to their liberation point in under 18 hours.

You guys get it all sussed out and I'll be ready in three years.


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## OldStrain

A True Racing pigeon enthusiast breeds best clock bird to best clock bird regardless of strain or family. If you have the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion for your mission, you will succeed in your endeavor. Winning in racing is what pigeon Racers are shooting for. That is their goal! One thing to remember is that there are other categories of pigeon enthusiasts and one of them is known as pigeon breeders. They have all the qualities I mentioned for the Racers except they are striving to maintain a family of birds. Seems like after reading some of the posts on this forum that there are a few self proclaimed experts that seem to despise the term STRAIN. At first I wanted to reply with a few choice words just to lower my blood pressure, but then I thought I better think about this whole situation before I start typing. Mainly because I am sure the powers above will delete this ASAP. Not a bad idea if you want to continue to be the Big Fish in a little pond! Sounds like the chances of continuing a family of birds is 100% impossible according to our self proclaimed experts or as I call them the Strain Nazis . It could be that they never had an interest in making that their goal or possibly they lack the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion it would take to be successful. People have the right to be different and have different views. I know people that have ridden their bicycles from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast and I know people who have complained that the 6 lb bargain bag of cheese curls are all the way on the back wall, the farthest point at Wal Marts. To try to conform the cheese curls lovers to have the same outlook as the coast to coast cyclist would be difficult. Could be they lack the determination and passion needed to succeed in such a task! My Father started with Trenton’s in the 30’s so I have been with Pigeons since birth. In my time I have been successful in flying birds, breeding birds, showing birds and judging birds. Not trying to say I am a self proclaimed expert, those jobs have been taken! What I am saying is I do have the experience and knowledge and what it takes to maintain a serious and quality breeding program. I would welcome a visit from our experts to take a look for themselves that there are strains that do retain the same characteristic as the birds of old. Remember, we are not dissecting each bird and studying each molecule. Again, come visit and call me with a heads-up before you show up and I will jump on my bike and get your cheese curls for you!


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## Jaysen

I figured it would be 18 straight with a 2 day return. 

I figured 1K miles (which is actually 2K) @18mpg (112 gal) x $4.05/gal to get $450 in fuel. 2 singles for 2 nights at @ $50/night to get $200 in motel. $45/day/person for meals comes to $270. That comes to $920. Throw an extra $80 and tell them to keep what they save to make it with the drivers time. 

That's where the numbers came from anyway.


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## West

Anyone with a pretty good understanding of genetics knows that breeding winner to winner from extremely unrelated birds is one of the worst ways to maintain a line of winners. It's funny that so many preach it on here when it is actually a huge shot in the dark. I recommend tracking down Steven Van Breemen's books for anyone interested in someone who used inbreeding with well planned outcrosses to create a winning family.


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## rpalmer

Jaysen said:


> I figured it would be 18 straight with a 2 day return.
> 
> I figured 1K miles (which is actually 2K) @18mpg (112 gal) x $4.05/gal to get $450 in fuel. 2 singles for 2 nights at @ $50/night to get $200 in motel. $45/day/person for meals comes to $270. That comes to $920. Throw an extra $80 and tell them to keep what they save to make it with the drivers time.
> 
> That's where the numbers came from anyway.


I a .. a.. forgot they had to come back home.


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## lawman

Jaysen said:


> I figured it would be 18 straight with a 2 day return.
> 
> I figured 1K miles (which is actually 2K) @18mpg (112 gal) x $4.05/gal to get $450 in fuel. 2 singles for 2 nights at @ $50/night to get $200 in motel. $45/day/person for meals comes to $270. That comes to $920. Throw an extra $80 and tell them to keep what they save to make it with the drivers time.
> 
> That's where the numbers came from anyway.


I thought you ordered yourself to stop thinking about it?

Now your hooked 

Anyway I flew a couple of 1000 mi races in the early 80's. The last one had about 300 birds go to the race. The birds were sent from So. California to Washington State via Rail road and were picked up by a fancier there. He then held them for two days in a loft so they got pleanty of food and water after the trip. 

They were then released on a Sunday morning and the first birds into the area started hitting the morning of day four. my only bird out of five entries came home the evening of day five. he didnt win the race but he did a good showing by anyones account, by even finishing the race. 

Wish I still had some of that blood now. 

Anyway even back in the 80's we spent approx. 25.00 per bird just for shipping costs. that disnt include race secretaries fee's or pooling.

now we have to send them via USPS or by ground transport. Its just a matter of working out the logistics and overall cost. 

then you have to find people with the heart and the bloodlines to fly the race. 

It would be fun to see a resurgance of the Trentons and the Abilenes or new bloodlines capable of the same type of distances.


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## lawman

West said:


> Anyone with a pretty good understanding of genetics knows that breeding winner to winner from extremely unrelated birds is one of the worst ways to maintain a line of winners. It's funny that so many preach it on here when it is actually a huge shot in the dark. I recommend tracking down Steven Van Breemen's books for anyone interested in someone who used inbreeding with well planned outcrosses to create a winning family.


Funny you would Quote Steven Van Breeman  as he also says you must maintain the hybred vigor. He helped write the book "The Art of Breeding" he has also writen a book called "Hints to win" two totally different concepts.

Method A; (most recomended)To maintain both a close family and the hybred vigor is to maintain two closely related bloodlines and on occasion cross them together. you then take the absolute best of the crosses and breed them back into both bloodlines of birds. 

Method B; bring in an unrelated bird(s) (they must be the absolute best you can get your hands on) then fly everything out of the crosses and only breed back into your original stock the absolute best of the younsters. this will have a high probiblility of changing your body and wing type unless this was taken into concideration when bring in the new bloodline.

If you are trying to maintain a single family of closely related birds, I would suggest you split the family and create two closely related bloodlines and cross them on occasion as in method A. This way everything is out of the original base stock and can be crossed at any time and you will be able to maintain body types, coloring, ect. 

This can also be done in method B however your must be even more strict in your selection of the birds that will eventually go back into the breeding loft. 

Personally I dont give a hoot about a birds color, so that does not matter to me. what I do care about is body and wing type. 

no matter what anyone says these things do matter and will vary greatly from course to course. 

you dont believe me you say! 

well go to the top fliers you know from different or opposing courses. (in my area you can fly three different directions, each with a different combine or concourse) the birds that excel in each direction are different body types and wing types.

Then you have some people who will fly their birds each week in every direction. They end up with tough all round birds (depending on race conditions) those are the birds that win.

Me I give my total concentration on one course and breed the best birds for my course based on the body and wing types that most often win. then I select the best fliers from each years crop of youngsters (after they have been raced out) and select those who will go back into the breeding loft and those what will stay on the race team.


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## Jaysen

lawman said:


> I thought you ordered yourself to stop thinking about it?
> 
> Now your hooked


I figured that out when I put band number 40 on a bird last week. This whole thing was just supposed to be 6 white birds to fly around the yard!!!!!!!!!

That was 60 birds, 3 lofts, one trip to Blackpool, and a whole lot of very well spent time ago. I wouldn't change it for the world.


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## West

lawman said:


> Funny you would Quote Steven Van Breeman  as he also says you must maintain the hybred vigor. He helped write the book "The Art of Breeding" he has also writen a book called "Hints to win" two totally different concepts.
> 
> Method A; (most recomended)To maintain both a close family and the hybred vigor is to maintain two closely related bloodlines and on occasion cross them together. you then take the absolute best of the crosses and breed them back into both bloodlines of birds.
> 
> Method B; bring in an unrelated bird(s) (they must be the absolute best you can get your hands on) then fly everything out of the crosses and only breed back into your original stock the absolute best of the younsters. this will have a high probiblility of changing your body and wing type unless this was taken into concideration when bring in the new bloodline.
> 
> If you are trying to maintain a single family of closely related birds, I would suggest you split the family and create two closely related bloodlines and cross them on occasion as in method A. This way everything is out of the original base stock and can be crossed at any time and you will be able to maintain body types, coloring, ect.
> 
> This can also be done in method B however your must be even more strict in your selection of the birds that will eventually go back into the breeding loft.
> 
> Personally I dont give a hoot about a birds color, so that does not matter to me. what I do care about is body and wing type.
> 
> no matter what anyone says these things do matter and will vary greatly from course to course.
> 
> you dont believe me you say!
> 
> well go to the top fliers you know from different or opposing courses. (in my area you can fly three different directions, each with a different combine or concourse) the birds that excel in each direction are different body types and wing types.
> 
> Then you have some people who will fly their birds each week in every direction. They end up with tough all round birds (depending on race conditions) those are the birds that win.
> 
> Me I give my total concentration on one course and breed the best birds for my course based on the body and wing types that most often win. then I select the best fliers from each years crop of youngsters (after they have been raced out) and select those who will go back into the breeding loft and those what will stay on the race team.


Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with my post lawman. Regardless your post affirms what I was getting at. Many people like to look for completely unrelated birds that have performed well and breed them in hopes of many winners. What they don't realize is the pool of genes they're hoping to pull from is so much larger than when you have a much more centralized family of birds with proven success racing. I agree with all you've said though. Also I believe the method of breeding unrelated winners and constant outcrosses is for lazy people or mob fliers.


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## re lee

West said:


> Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with my post lawman. Regardless your post affirms what I was getting at. Many people like to look for completely unrelated birds that have performed well and breed them in hopes of many winners. What they don't realize is the pool of genes they're hoping to pull from is so much larger than when you have a much more centralized family of birds with proven success racing. I agree with all you've said though. Also I believe the method of breeding unrelated winners and constant outcrosses is for lazy people or mob fliers.


Constant out crossing weakens a family of birds. Where selct out crossing then rebuild the line keeps it strong. This is needed controled breeding. BUT agin that does not make the line so called pure this and pure that. But it does make for the family line of birds. Where as any solid lloft should have several family groups of birds even if the base line is still the same. Building around different key birds and crossing over that line first then outside the line on new blood blood so the birds maintain a certion vigor. The need for breding is the type and distance one chooses to race. Building a line or 21 lines to competer at that level. Racing all levels is hard to do with 1 line. A thousand mile race in some places would not be as much as others. Here racing old birds was about 175 dollars the full season. Out to the 500. 600 for some Other place charge so much to fly and so much per bird also. Then others charge a set price for per crate NO real set pricing on races. A thousand mile race could be a state race but some birds would fly 800 some 1200 In a race like that BUT cost would be effective. Personaly alot of people do not breed for the deep races like over a 600. But the birds if conditioned right could do the thousand. Meaning not pushed but rested for that race. Say a 400 or 500 pulled rested 3 weeks loft flown trained out to 100 5 days befor the race then shipped. Birds raced every week then put to that distance many just would be tired Some would get home But late. And a thousand mile race should be a 3 day race or until the first bird came in which ever comes last. Gas prices says 1 race per year. And it does take a good 3 years to develop a good old bird race team. exsisting teams could be ready the 2nd year With the right birds.


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## RodSD

lawman said:


> Funny you would Quote Steven Van Breeman  as he also says you must maintain the hybred vigor. He helped write the book "The Art of Breeding" he has also writen a book called "Hints to win" two totally different concepts.
> 
> Method A; (most recomended)To maintain both a close family and the hybred vigor is to maintain two closely related bloodlines and on occasion cross them together. you then take the absolute best of the crosses and breed them back into both bloodlines of birds.
> 
> Method B; bring in an unrelated bird(s) (they must be the absolute best you can get your hands on) then fly everything out of the crosses and only breed back into your original stock the absolute best of the younsters. this will have a high probiblility of changing your body and wing type unless this was taken into concideration when bring in the new bloodline.
> 
> If you are trying to maintain a single family of closely related birds, I would suggest you split the family and create two closely related bloodlines and cross them on occasion as in method A. This way everything is out of the original base stock and can be crossed at any time and you will be able to maintain body types, coloring, ect.
> 
> This can also be done in method B however your must be even more strict in your selection of the birds that will eventually go back into the breeding loft.
> 
> Personally I dont give a hoot about a birds color, so that does not matter to me. what I do care about is body and wing type.
> 
> no matter what anyone says these things do matter and will vary greatly from course to course.
> 
> you dont believe me you say!
> 
> well go to the top fliers you know from different or opposing courses. *(in my area you can fly three different directions, each with a different combine or concourse) the birds that excel in each direction are different body types and wing types.
> 
> Then you have some people who will fly their birds each week in every direction. They end up with tough all round birds (depending on race conditions) those are the birds that win.*
> 
> Me I give my total concentration on one course and breed the best birds for my course based on the body and wing types that most often win. then I select the best fliers from each years crop of youngsters (after they have been raced out) and select those who will go back into the breeding loft and those what will stay on the race team.


I think that is one secret tip that is now told. LOL! I believe you. That would explain there are many different types of winning pigeons.

Have you considered feather types as well?


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## rpalmer

Since I am no expert I offer the following from "those" in the know.

In Defense of Long Distance Racing by John Vance

What a refreshing change to read in the Racing Pigeon Digest lately about the renaissance resurgence of long distance racing in the USA. Over the past several issues, there have been articles about newly established 600 mile races in Houston,TX and Brooksville,FL., a two part articles about the history of a long distance strain in the Nebraska area, an article "highlighting" a top long distance flyer, and two advertisements announcing new long distance regional "Open races", one in the Northeast the other in the West.

As an affectionado of long distance racing, I welcome these articles and announcements as essential to preserving the great American tradition of Long Distance flying.

Over the past 30 years, the trend in the USA, has been towards more short and middle distance races on the schedule and less long distance races. When I first became interested in racing pigeons, anything less than 250 miles was considered a "training" race. Real racing didn't start until the 300 mile station and winning a 500 or 600 mile race was the pinnacle of the season for most flyers.

The 1960's began a wave of short distance strains moving from Europe to the USA. First and foremost would be the Janssens, but also the Van Hoves, Van Loons, Van Reets, etc. Since then, most race schedules have changed so that about 80% of their old bird races are at 375 miles or less.

Time and time again, I hear from flyers across the country, who want to continue this tradition of long distance flying, having to fight every year to preserve the 500 and longer race stations. Some protractors are even claiming that sending a bird to a 600 mile race station is "cruel".

What these protractors are really saying is that it would be "cruel for them" to send their own birds to the 600 because they do not know how to select and conditions birds for these longer races. It is sad that so many have no idea how to breed, train and condition for 500 and 600 mile races. Twenty years ago, many flyers possessed these skills. The USA was, I believe, the first country to have a 500 mile day bird, 600 mile day bird and 700 mile day bird. We were the first to fly the 1000 mile station as a scheduled race, in many clubs.

The last thirty years, has been a transition period. Many fanciers had to develop and maintain two types of birds to be able to compete at all distances. They developed the shorter and longer distance birds separately, and maintain different training and breeding methods to accommodate both types of races.

These day, many flyers have one and only one system for preparing birds for the races. They treat all birds as though they are fast maturing, short / middle distance birds. As such, they are more likely than not, losing any birds capable of flying the 500 to 600 mile races, long before these birds can be proven out and identified. Their quest for immediate gratification, precludes them from successful competition except in youngbirds and short / middle distance old bird races.

The great American Long Distance flyer, Milton E. Haffner of Fort Wayne, Indiana, had this to say about his preparation of birds for long distance racing: "I do not like to ship a bird to the 1000 mile station until it has been to the 500 and 600, which means it must be in its 4th year of flying. I do not like to send yearlings to the 500 or 600. only to 275 miles. Then the 3rd year to 500 and 600." He goes on to report on his returns from the 1000 mile station: "In the last 18 years, I have shipped a total of 66 birds to 1000 mile race stations and of this total of 66 birds, 48 have returned home. This is quite a good return home percentage."

Now Milton E. Haffner was at the far end of the racing pigeon spectrum, he was an extreme long distance flyer. He believed races under 300 miles are only trainers. He bred and trained his birds to reach their peak of performance at three years of age and older. His percentage of returns from 1000 miles over 18 years surpasses many of the results I have seen from flyers sending their birds no further than 400 miles.

Many lofts of today do not even have a three year old bird on the race team, probably not even more than a few two year old bird on the team. Instead, they must year after year depend upon yearlings to carry the race schedule for them. Take a look at your club's own race results and see for yourself.

Some flyers say that yearlings do all their winning for them. However, if you ask them; how many two, three and four year old birds they have on their team, you begin to understand the true situation. They just don't have any, or only a few. They have burned out their yearlings, year after year, and as two year olds and older these birds just aren't competitive.

These flyers, instead of identifying and modifying their management problems, put a spin on it saying that the yearlings are better flyers. This is just not the case, more than likely, they just have not ruined their yearlings yet!

Regrettably, some have ruined their yearlings for racing when they were still yet youngbirds by calling upon these youngbirds to perform beyond their training and capabilities. If you don't handle your youngbirds properly, they will be a disappointment to you as yearling racers. If you don't handle you yearlings correctly, they will not win as two year olds or older. If all you want to do is win today, and won't invest in a long term program, you will probably always be a youngbirds and yearling flyer.

For those who think they need large yearling teams year after year to be competitive, I point of "Champion Breakaway" winner of 70+ races and Van Reet's "Daniel" winner of 50+ races; these were short distance racers yet they won against the largest competitions for five or more years. So, even in the short distance racing, bad management leads to yearlings being 90% of the birds entered. Yearlings are not better, they are just all that some have available to send to the races!

Therefore, it is not that flying a 600 mile race is cruel, it is that these complainers do not know how to breed, identify, train and conditions the right birds for these races. They are right to be concerned about their ability to compete; only their efforts are wasted in trying to get other flyers to abandon these races.

Instead, they should develop a strategy for success at 500 and 600 mile racing and overcome their own inadequate management methods. Even so, the complainer is a better sportsman than the flyer who sends birds to a long distance race with no idea if their birds are capable of finishing the flight.

Some with Van Loons or other traditionally labeled "shorter distance families" might claim that they do not have the birds for such racing. I find it interesting that Tony Rossi, who flies Van Loons, a family famous in Europe for winning at 60 - 180 miles, won the Midwest National 500 Mile Race with a Van Loon. The ARPU ~ 1st National Ace Pigeon Marathon Triple Crown Winner in 2002 was a Van Loon cross bred and flown by Jim & Mary Richesin. There is no better long distance bird in all of America than this bird. A determined fancier can do wonders with any family of birds given a few generations of selective breeding and keen observation.

(Note: Don't get hung up on the miles flown, what is important is the hours on the wing. In Western Washington, we would consider getting a 500 mile day bird a great accomplishment, while in Eastern Washington they often get 600 mile day birds. The weather, seasonal winds, humidity, barometric pressure, inversion layers, etc., all contribute to the harshness of a race course. Just because one race course can fly 600 mile races successfully does not mean another race course should expect the same. When scheduling your races it is the hours on the wing that defines a marathon effort not the miles flown. A blow home 600 mile winner does not outclass a 450 mile head wind winner. In my opinion, this is one mistake that the AU and IF has made in their National Awards criteria. But, that is another story.)

The classic Barcelona style for preparing birds for the race station has been to loft fly as youngbirds, race yearlings out to 195 miles, race two year olds out to 450 or possibly 500 miles and then at three years old, start sending their birds to the Barcelona race, with the expectation that these birds will compete at this race station for several years even racing as seven year olds. In fact, you cannot send yearlings to the Barcelona race, they will not allow it!



http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/loft/articles/long-distance-racing.html


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## rpalmer

This is the rest. Could not post it in it's entirety due to it's length


Take the 2001 Barcelona International winner: The winning bird, belonging to S. Heymann from Beesel, the Netherlands, flew 709 miles at a speed of 1375 m/m (1504 ypm) and clocking in at 5:45 AM the next morning.

Or consider: Emile Deny's “Tee” 4415211-76; who was the greatest Barcelona flyer of his era. The “Tee”, placed in the International Barcelona races 1979 - 46th, 1980 - 8th, 1981 - 102nd, and 1982 - 4th. That is right, as a six year old flyer, "Tee" won 4th International Barcelona, the Golden Wing Award of Belgium and was declared the greatest distance racer of the 5 year period, 1978 - 1982.

Or, let us consider Van der Wegen's 8310766-83 "De 66";
"De 66 Barcelona" flew Barcelona for six straight years as follows:
1985 - 545th ~ 17,060p
1986 - 677th ~ 18,176p
1987 - 446th ~ 21,545p
1988 - 47th ~ 21,194p
1989 - 2841st ~ 25,502p
1990 - 1240th ~ 28,128p

Then went on to place:

1990 - 7th ~ 10,444p Perpignan International as a seven year old, fantastic!

I wonder how many North American lofts even have a 7-year-old bird on their race team, let alone one of such great courage and stamina as the "Tee" or "De 66". Certainly, these are a different kind of racing pigeon, birds of a rich heritage and noble character.

The bottom line is that Barcelona International winners sell for as much as $150,000. The short and middle distance 1st National Ace pigeons sell for $15,000 - $30,000. Why is that? Could it be that smart pigeon flyers of Europe know the difference between winning at 200, 300 or 400 miles and winning at 600 miles? I think so!

So, when someone tells you they want to discontinue the long distance races, just realize that they are "folding" because they do not know how to breed or condition birds for these races. They are admitting that they are either unwilling or unable to compete successfully, beyond the middle distances. The worldwide trend is to acknowledge the "magnificence" of these long distance racers not eliminate them from competing.

Don't get me wrong, if these fanciers were in Europe, they could easily join a short or middle distance club and fly their system amongst many others who enjoy those same distances. But with few exceptions, here in the USA, we do not have the membership to maintain specialized clubs. In order to fly at all, we must fly all distances within our own clubs.

This creates a greater challenge for our flyers than most European flyers will ever face. However, America is known for her ability to overcome all challenges. Believe me, most Europeans would not do as well in the USA or Canada as they do in Europe. Here they would have to be good at all distances to be at the top of the championships not just good at short, middle or long but good at all distances. The USA and Canadian flyers face a greater challenge in developing successful breeding programs and training methods. We should thoroughly enjoy our different style of racing in North America, and strive to excel under our unique demographic conditions and challenging race schedules.

Keep up the good work, continue to promote the great North American tradition of long distance flying. Use GPS to better manage the races by moving the race station location (in real time) to reflect weather conditions on the day of release. Shorten or lengthen the race distance depending on your area's prevailing winds and weather conditions. Some clubs will only be able to get good returns from 500 or 550 miles, some from 600+ miles depending on the conditions of the race course. In the end, it is the hours on the wing not the airline miles that defines the effort.

In my humble opinion, there is no greater challenge nor greater satisfaction than working with long distance pigeons and seeing them home from such far away places. Keep up the good work! One hundred and twenty years of tradition precedes you and guides you in your quest!.


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## rpalmer

Jaysen said:


> So the rough math on a 1K race would be about $1000 in truck costs (fuel, motel, food). The larger problem would be the multi-day driving or multi-driver requirement. With the smaller club sizes and larger spreads in most places (NYC, Fl, and a few others excepted), it would seem that one would need to do a 1K+ as part of a one loft to make it viable. Maybe a one loft "long distance proving ground" doing a series of races from 3, 5, 7, 10, 13, and 16 hundred. Don't send a sprint bird.
> 
> I have to tell you, that sounds very interesting to me. Given my location, if I were planning this I would:
> * Look to use rail for the transport
> * Try to enlist mid west clubs to receive birds for races and act as liberators
> * Consider a race cycle to be a 2 year program where year one is all about settling and training
> * Then the races split between spring (April/May) and fall (Sep/Oct) to reduce heat concerns.
> 
> This actually sounds fun to me. I need to stop thinking about it immediately.


http://www.midwesthpa.com/index.htm


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## re lee

OldStrain said:


> A True Racing pigeon enthusiast breeds best clock bird to best clock bird regardless of strain or family. If you have the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion for your mission, you will succeed in your endeavor. Winning in racing is what pigeon Racers are shooting for. That is their goal! One thing to remember is that there are other categories of pigeon enthusiasts and one of them is known as pigeon breeders. They have all the qualities I mentioned for the Racers except they are striving to maintain a family of birds. Seems like after reading some of the posts on this forum that there are a few self proclaimed experts that seem to despise the term STRAIN. At first I wanted to reply with a few choice words just to lower my blood pressure, but then I thought I better think about this whole situation before I start typing. Mainly because I am sure the powers above will delete this ASAP. Not a bad idea if you want to continue to be the Big Fish in a little pond! Sounds like the chances of continuing a family of birds is 100% impossible according to our self proclaimed experts or as I call them the Strain Nazis . It could be that they never had an interest in making that their goal or possibly they lack the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion it would take to be successful. People have the right to be different and have different views. I know people that have ridden their bicycles from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast and I know people who have complained that the 6 lb bargain bag of cheese curls are all the way on the back wall, the farthest point at Wal Marts. To try to conform the cheese curls lovers to have the same outlook as the coast to coast cyclist would be difficult. Could be they lack the determination and passion needed to succeed in such a task! My Father started with Trenton’s in the 30’s so I have been with Pigeons since birth. In my time I have been successful in flying birds, breeding birds, showing birds and judging birds. Not trying to say I am a self proclaimed expert, those jobs have been taken! What I am saying is I do have the experience and knowledge and what it takes to maintain a serious and quality breeding program. I would welcome a visit from our experts to take a look for themselves that there are strains that do retain the same characteristic as the birds of old. Remember, we are not dissecting each bird and studying each molecule. Again, come visit and call me with a heads-up before you show up and I will jump on my bike and get your cheese curls for you!


To set the record straight I DO BELIEVE IN A STRAIN PLUS FAMILY LINE OF BIRDS. BUT breeding birds in your own loft YOU that person is developing your line of birds. A strain NOT LIKE the trentons Where They were bred by conrad Mahr FOR TEN YEARs befor they were all killed in a fire. It sure takes more then ten years to develop any good line of birds setting down the needed quality. Believing something old can be 100 percent pure with out needing and wanting to strenghen the line while controling the family group of birds. WELL anybody KNOWS when you only lokk into a small box you only have a small choice. Looking outside the box for needed strenghs Takes a loft forwrda. NOT pairing this with that But selection of need. AND Why ONLY in AMERICA does And ONLY or near ONLY in race pigeons Does one calim I breed such and such The founder of this line has been dead over 100 years BUT my birds are still pure. . IF a person is never willing to breed for there own needs Then let it be so. Can not drive a car with out an engine. JUST like some color breeders They only look with in the one color And hope to find the quality they need When there is a wqhole world out there to find that quality And color is not hard to rebuild BUT quality is. BUT YES I do believe in family lines of birds And it is a good way to build a loft AND THAT IS pigeon breeding. Making a person a pigeon breeder Making that person also a strong race person. The breeding loft is the art of pigeon keeping selection. IF a person did not get the best of an old line STRAIN then they had to build there own line of bird NOT the starin makers line Because He did not select 1 of those birds AND Most all were born long after he died. How could he of helped. SO THEY ARE BASE LINE BREED AT BEST. And surely been out crossed If most were being honest on the pedigrees BUT hey I could catch a feral that looks like a race bird call it such and such on a doctored pedigree AND make a few dollars To some would be believer. AND there are plenty of doctored pedigrees made every year IN the racing pigeon world For the name of money. Plus plenty of birds sold that could not help many a loft IN the racing pigeon world. Because NOT flown No race record It is a gambvle on anything you get. And Honest people Well.


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## rpalmer

re lee said:


> A strain NOT LIKE the trentons Where They were bred by conrad Mahr FOR TEN YEARs befor they were all killed in a fire.


Not all Trentons were destroyed in that fire. His birds were though.


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## M Kurps

Always wanted to try a pair of Trentons since I was young.
Kurps


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## NayNay

Jaysen said:


> So the rough math on a 1K race would be about $1000 in truck costs (fuel, motel, food). The larger problem would be the multi-day driving or multi-driver requirement. With the smaller club sizes and larger spreads in most places (NYC, Fl, and a few others excepted), it would seem that one would need to do a 1K+ as part of a one loft to make it viable. Maybe a one loft "long distance proving ground" doing a series of races from 3, 5, 7, 10, 13, and 16 hundred. Don't send a sprint bird.
> 
> I have to tell you, that sounds very interesting to me. Given my location, if I were planning this I would:
> * Look to use rail for the transport
> * Try to enlist mid west clubs to receive birds for races and act as liberators
> * Consider a race cycle to be a 2 year program where year one is all about settling and training
> * Then the races split between spring (April/May) and fall (Sep/Oct) to reduce heat concerns.
> 
> This actually sounds fun to me. I need to stop thinking about it immediately.


I say keep that idea alive. It would be an awesome one loft, and a really good test for the quality of the birds involved.


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## lawman

RodSD said:


> I think that is one secret tip that is now told. LOL! I believe you. That would explain there are many different types of winning pigeons.
> 
> Have you considered feather types as well?


To me you have to judge the feather type along with the wing so I would consider them part of the same equation.


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## lawman

West said:


> Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with my post lawman. Regardless your post affirms what I was getting at. Many people like to look for completely unrelated birds that have performed well and breed them in hopes of many winners. What they don't realize is the pool of genes they're hoping to pull from is so much larger than when you have a much more centralized family of birds with proven success racing. I agree with all you've said though. Also I believe the method of breeding unrelated winners and constant outcrosses is for lazy people or mob fliers.


Maybe a little of both 

I believe you have to use both inbreeding and occaional outcrossing. What I was trying to explain is that you can have two lines of the same family, If there are no coman ancestors within 3 generations you have a outcross according to most books on the subject. so with two lines out of same base pairing you get the best of both worlds. you can actualy do a combination of inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing, all within your own colony of birds. 

But dont ever think even this method will not eventualy run its course and all your birds will be to closely related. even the greatest fliers of the past always keep their eyes open for a top notch bird to be brought in. 

But as I said select from those who have the most similarity to your own birds. (I.E. wing and body type at least) just one poor choice could cost you years of breeding to remove, if it is not caught soon enough it could distroy the entire bloodline.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

C.DAHLEN said:


> Anybody in this group fly (race) Trenton pigeons? How do they perform for you?
> 
> Last year a friend of mine gave me six Yellow Trentons that i put with my young bird race team.
> When i got to the 50-70 mile training toss, i started losing them.
> I was told that Trentons are good long distance birds, so i wonder what happened?


 I don't think any general statement can be made about any local colony of "Trenton's" which will be universally true. It will depend to a very large degree as to whose hands the birds have been in for the last several generations. I think this may be true with some other strains as well....but I digress. 

Had a local man here who had this section in his loft of these beautiful recessive red pigeons which he called "Trenton's". He had won shows with them. But, he told me that every time he attempted to race them, he would lose many of them in training, and never did get one back from our 130 mile race station so gave up trying to fly them and just enjoyed showing them. He used other families he owned for his local racing. 

One can draw any number of conclusions from this local fancier. I have my own theory as to what it means and it is similar to what this fancier thought as well, and that was too many generations where the selection process was not based on performance. Perhaps the same is true with the birds that you own ? 

Perhaps in time, one could bring that group of birds back, and turn them into performance birds once again, instead of "show" birds. But, my question would be....Why bother ?


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## akbird

I flew a lot of Trentons when I was in Alaska. It was my experience that they did not do well as young birds but if I took it easy on their training when they were young, they were fantastic as 2 or 3 year olds. That may be why flyers lose them as young birds--they expect them to fly as well as their other "strains". Trentons take a while to mature and I would dare to say, most flyers don't want to invest their time and $ on birds that take so long to prove themselves.


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## RodSD

Long distance birds do somehow mature slow. I have seen it myself whether it is physical performance or intellectual maturity. The hawks have seen it, too, and the result is predictable.


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## OldStrain

To re lee: I totally agree that a strain or family will form to the handler/breeder that molds it. It is a very good chance that the handler/breeder will make changes by bringing new birds or by lack of knowledge in breeding. The total accomplishment would be to have the ability to maintain the strain as he found it. True, Mahr’s loft did burn down in September of 1898. Also true was that he was a very well known flyer/breeder at the time and also quite a successful dealer of birds, especially with the major success and records with his Trentons. Fortunately his Trenton line was well distributed and if I may Quote Otto Meyer’s History of the Trenton: the strain spread like a prairie fire throughout the land of its origins and beyond. My Father started with Trentons in 1933, his birds came from old greats that obtained bird directly from Conrad A. Mahr. He started flying with the AU in 1938 and flew competitively until 1999. Before a bird could be placed in his breeders coop it had to fly at least to the 500. His goal was to maintain the True Trenton type in body, wing, eye, cere, wattle, amber beak, white toe nails and color. And after reading all these traits and thinking to yourself (I never knew there were so many differences in Trentons.) Don’t feel bad, few do! Unfortunately, the poor Trenton is just known as a Yellow pigeon to the un-knowing. Also true is that there were many, many breeders that only bred for color, which was a very bad thing for the Trenton strain & name. With the passing of my Father in 2002, that gave him 69 years to maintain his birds. They did a story of him in the British Homing World magazine in the UK as well in the Australian Racing magazine where he was known as the Keeper of the Strain. I do enjoy the Fact that his Birds are referred to as Oshaben Trentons. To Warren: I do agree that the breeding of the bird will depend to a very large degree as to whose hands the birds have been in for the last several generations. In my Father’s case, it was 3 ½ generations and proved to be a positive success! As for those Beautiful Birds (Recessive Reds and Yellows) that can’t fly home from the corner. I too agree, the down fall comes from breeders that only believe in color breeding. Our Yellows come from Blacks, Smokes, Velvet and Reds. Huge difference from a bird that is bred from yellow to yellow for generations. A major deficiency in Trentons is that they do not show there true ability until age 3, 4 and older. Slow maturing birds and must be trained different from the start. Y.B. only up to 175 mile, yearly 275 miles. By age 3 they will perform in the 5 & 600 mile races. Pretty much the time line in flying successfully with a Trenton does not fit into today’s racing program. With the focus on young bird races, Trentons are not a smart choice. Even with oldbird races, the guys will stop or postpone a race because of foul weather. Different than the days long gone!


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## re lee

Yes a third year old bird is matured enough to make the distance races. Far as color be it red yeloow white ECT. As one works on quality and color by making that color out cross to maintain quality color can indeed fly and even win the race. But putting a blind eye to not breeding outside the wanted color. Keeps a person from being able to have a greater selection. I had a friend that did get The trenton based birds From Art nemchek His birds were several Dark checks And a few Almost black. He probably still has a few But stoped racing back in the mid 1980s. But it is hard to maintain a line staying only within a set line of birds after so many years. Cross line. And as i said Trentons To me was not a set strain As to body type. Logans Resemble the trenton line in type. We have to remember several old line birds Were heaveyer boned. And a bigger birds Making them the slower BUT steady bird. that could fly the hard races. As I have said about WHITE birds People did not keep many tested out. Or go beyond the color white To keep quality up. BUT white Can race If maintained right. I used to like the old stassert line of birds back in the day also. We in the US have imported about every line of race birds there is. And Many have grown away from building a family line of birds. Because of wanting to win NOW instead of taking the years it takes to build a strong solid loft of bird. THEN with 1 loft races gears go torward a fast maturing group of birds that can handle thes races. I have heard the same about mulemans Where many get lost as young birds BUT do better as old birds. This comes from people who raced them I did not not have any until my last part of keeping But had to get out of the bird so never new the results for me. But It boils down to the birds the breeder. And the proper selection as testing tells the story. And yes THE old trenton line were a sought after line of birds Wher i would say crossing an exsisting ENGLISH line of bird over to trenton based birds would make a good cross line. As the old rule was Use belgium Based birds with other belguim based birds And english based line with other english based lines. Because of how those line originated in the breed cross l;ine Using a different base cross to develop them. Made for a better cross line. When crossed across the main line You saw less results. BUT that was the idea in my day. When people talked And made sence to me.


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## Mike44ch

I had Trenton pigeons as a kid and loved them. I was impressed with their size, endurance and speed. After about 50 years I want to get started again. I want to buy 2 pr. I would appreciate any help I can get. Thanks.


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## Crazy Pete

If you can get a phone number for Lori Oshaben she still has her dads birds.
Dave


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## lgfout

OldStrain said:


> A True Racing pigeon enthusiast breeds best clock bird to best clock bird regardless of strain or family. If you have the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion for your mission, you will succeed in your endeavor. Winning in racing is what pigeon Racers are shooting for. That is their goal! One thing to remember is that there are other categories of pigeon enthusiasts and one of them is known as pigeon breeders. They have all the qualities I mentioned for the Racers except they are striving to maintain a family of birds. Seems like after reading some of the posts on this forum that there are a few self proclaimed experts that seem to despise the term STRAIN. At first I wanted to reply with a few choice words just to lower my blood pressure, but then I thought I better think about this whole situation before I start typing. Mainly because I am sure the powers above will delete this ASAP. Not a bad idea if you want to continue to be the Big Fish in a little pond! Sounds like the chances of continuing a family of birds is 100% impossible according to our self proclaimed experts or as I call them the Strain Nazis . It could be that they never had an interest in making that their goal or possibly they lack the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion it would take to be successful. People have the right to be different and have different views. I know people that have ridden their bicycles from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast and I know people who have complained that the 6 lb bargain bag of cheese curls are all the way on the back wall, the farthest point at Wal Marts. To try to conform the cheese curls lovers to have the same outlook as the coast to coast cyclist would be difficult. Could be they lack the determination and passion needed to succeed in such a task! My Father started with Trenton’s in the 30’s so I have been with Pigeons since birth. In my time I have been successful in flying birds, breeding birds, showing birds and judging birds. Not trying to say I am a self proclaimed expert, those jobs have been taken! What I am saying is I do have the experience and knowledge and what it takes to maintain a serious and quality breeding program. I would welcome a visit from our experts to take a look for themselves that there are strains that do retain the same characteristic as the birds of old. Remember, we are not dissecting each bird and studying each molecule. Again, come visit and call me with a heads-up before you show up and I will jump on my bike and get your cheese curls for you!




Oh My!! is this Mark Twain  I love it...!!!! I would rather read one post like this than a thousand rantings !! If the young ones just realize there is a lot to learn and seek out the true experts through local clubs, written materials, etc.. Everyone does not have pigeons for the same reason. Better to seek out knowledge that is constructive to each particular circumstance...


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## SmithFamilyLoft

OldStrain said:


> ........One thing to remember is that there are other categories of pigeon enthusiasts and one of them is known as pigeon breeders. *They have all the qualities I mentioned for the Racers except they are striving to maintain a family of birds.* Seems like after reading some of the posts on this forum that there *are a few self proclaimed experts that seem to despise the term STRAIN.* At first I wanted to reply with a few choice words just to lower my blood pressure, but then I thought I better think about this whole situation before I start typing. Mainly because I am sure the powers above will delete this ASAP. Not a bad idea if you want to continue to be the Big Fish in a little pond! Sounds like the chances of continuing a family of birds is 100% impossible according to our self proclaimed experts or as I call them the Strain Nazis . It could be that they never had an interest in making that their goal or possibly they lack the intelligence, patience, determination and a hard core passion it would take to be successful. People have the right to be different and have different views. I know people that have ridden their bicycles from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast and I know people who have complained that the 6 lb bargain bag of cheese curls are all the way on the back wall, the farthest point at Wal Marts. To try to conform the cheese curls lovers to have the same outlook as the coast to coast cyclist would be difficult. Could be they lack the determination and passion needed to succeed in such a task! My Father started with Trenton’s in the 30’s so I have been with Pigeons since birth. In my time I have been successful in flying birds, breeding birds, showing birds and judging birds. Not trying to say I am a self proclaimed expert, those jobs have been taken! What I am saying is I do have the experience and knowledge and what it takes to maintain a serious and quality breeding program.* I would welcome a visit from our experts to take a look for themselves that there are strains that do retain the same characteristic as the birds of old.* Remember, we are not dissecting each bird and studying each molecule. Again, come visit and call me with a heads-up before you show up and I will jump on my bike and get your cheese curls for you!


I don't know who all you had in mind when you used the term "Strain Nazis", as I would think that the fancier who claims that his pigeons are a particular strain kept pure after hundreds of generations, is the person where the term "Strain Nazis" might apply.  And I am referring to the fancier who is more concerned about the "purity" of the race (strain), then the actual racing performance. 

From my perspective, when I look at the recent records of fanciers who might be considered some of the top "In The World", I have never seen any who claim to be breeding a "pure" line from a hundred years ago. If one can show me a single example of a European Champion who is flying successfully with one of these old time "pure" stains, then I am interested in being educated. Most that I know of, or have read about, started their careers with some good birds, and would bring in an outstanding bird when they could acquire one, without much regard to what "strain" it was. 

The other thing I am not sure of, is what criteria is to be used when we label someone as "self proclaimed". Your views are different from say an Ad Schaerlackens, is Ad self proclaimed ? And is it the "self proclaimed" part which really gets our goat, or is it, we can't really debate the issue, so we attempt to bring into question the fanciers views, because we disagree with them, and so label the opposing view as coming from a "self proclaimed expert" ?

* I don't know what the answers are regarding this subject.* It was never my desire or intention to simply maintain the work that some other fancier, great as he may have been, at the same level as the family may have obtained 10 years ago, 30 years ago, or a 100 years ago. My intention or goal if you will, has been to work with the evolutionary process, and continually improve my colony of pigeons, made up of some of the best racing pigeons I can obtain. Without regard to who the breeder was, or what name he chose to give his birds. My only real disdain for the term "strain", is that it is so universally misused to be for all intensive purposes, useless. But, that is only my personal view. If someone wants to get mad at me because I might roll my eyes, when he claims he owns "pure" Ulens, or Wegge, or XYZ, then I am sorry I pushed your blood pressure up. 

I advise all breeders, regardless of the name you choose to apply to your pigeons to show up on race day, and win some events, with your family or "strain" of pigeons, and what I found happens, is that the birds somehow develop a hyphenated name on their pedigrees just like magic. If those 1st Place results don't materialize, then the hyphenated name is missing, and the pedigree stresses the direct line back to the fancier who actually bred winning birds. 

So maybe Ad is a "strain nazis", and maybe he is "self-proclaimed". But, based on the results he has been able to produce, I am inclined to think he may have a better understanding of these issues. Who am I to argue with such success ?



http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/


Part 2

"STRAINS, NAMES AND EYES"

*When somebody in Holland or Belgium races outstanding the result is that foreigners who are after good birds get interested in the pigeons of such a man. And the first question the champion in Holland and Belgium has to answer is: 'What strain do you have?' 'What strain?' The champions in Holland and Belgium often do not understand. 'What does this man want, a strain or a good bird?' they wonder. This is not strange because the majority of the superbirds in Europe are products of crossings! Moreover the question may rise if 'pure strains' really exist? In my opinion they don't.*- Ad Schaerlaeckens


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## lgfout

as I have noted before the argument could be made that no strain of racing pigeon is pure simply because of the origin of the species itself?? however there are some who claim the right to make such distinctions because of the time bred and the limited use of any cross. no matter what others may think it hasn't seemed to deter them from making the claim. as far as I am concerned so be it...you can go back to akc records and find the origins of certain breeds of dogs which were established not that long ago.
others can labor over it I am comfortable to let it be...

here are a few interesting articles

http://www.racingpigeondigest.com/archives/featured_articles/14

http://www.jolynpigeons.be/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=68

http://www.skylakesions.com/ (about sions)

http://www.articles.racing-pigeon-post.org/Smallest_loft.html


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## SmithFamilyLoft

lgfout said:


> as I have noted before the argument could be made that no strain of racing pigeon is pure simply because of the origin of the species itself?? however there are some who claim the right to make such distinctions because of the time bred and the limited use of any cross. no matter what others may think it hasn't seemed to deter them from making the claim. as far as I am concerned so be it...you can go back to akc records and find the origins of certain breeds of dogs which were established not that long ago.
> others can labor over it I am comfortable to let it be...
> 
> here are a few interesting articles
> 
> http://www.racingpigeondigest.com/archives/featured_articles/14
> 
> http://www.jolynpigeons.be/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=68
> 
> http://www.skylakesions.com/ (about sions)
> 
> http://www.articles.racing-pigeon-post.org/Smallest_loft.html



Thank you for sharing the links. I also am willing to just let it be, as I simply see this as an academic exercise. I have given thought to this idea when applied to various breeds of dog. The breed which jumps into my mind is the Doberman Pinscher see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Friedrich_Louis_Dobermann 

No doubt that the modern day Doberman can trace it's roots back to some of the original Doberman's dogs, but it is also quite obvious, or should be, that today's dog, is far different from the dogs that the original designer and breeder Louis Doberman, had in mind. I once found a quote where he had intended to breed a dog which would "attack the devil himself". Countless generations, and diffferent goals of different breeders, bred a line of dogs that were more like family companion dogs. The dogs are now less agressive, and they look different. Much information can be found on diffferent colors and mutations which have been continued by way of inbreeding, see : http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm which I share only to show that when different breeders are selecting for different things like color, etc. that fundamental changes in the breed/strain occur, and the resulting animals may be far removed from what the orginal breeder was selecting for.

I say this is all an academic excersize, because if someone would have the talents of one of those great masters who bred a great family of birds back in the 1800's or early 1900's and say his name was XYZ. And now he is breeding pigeons which win National Championships time and time again, his birds would soon be known as XYZ birds, not the name of the various strains or birds he may have started with. Just like any bird that the Jannssen Brothers bred were known as Jannssens, and every bird Ludo Claessen bred were Ludos. (Even if the parents were bred by someone else) etc. etc.


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## The Old Al West

*Question for ohiogsp*

Ohiogsp,

Does your friend(the trenton guy) fly Trentons at all? I mean at any distance. Does he sell any of those flyers? If he does not do you know of anyone who is presently flying trentons and selling those birds he flies?


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## firingo

This is very interesting post.
What do think about this page, they are a true Trenton??
I just bought three yellow homers; the seller one of my friend told me that they are Trenton.

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/6337817


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## SmithFamilyLoft

firingo said:


> This is very interesting post.
> What do think about this page, they are a true Trenton??
> I just bought three yellow homers; the seller one of my friend told me that they are Trenton.
> 
> http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/6337817


 I find the "name" of the "strain" assigned to a particular bird, is the last fancier who won significant race events. Sometimes it is a grand parent, or great grand parent. In the case of these "Trenton's", it must mean you must go back to the early 1930's from some fancier named "Beach" and other fanciers who simply referred to the bird's as Trenton's. Who is to say what a "Trenton" really is ? When I was a kid, any recessive red pigeon might be called a Trenton. Had a local fancier now since passed, who had a whole separate loft of pigeons he referred to as "Trenton's". He claimed he had won numerous awards at the pigeons shows with them, but could barely get them to return from a hundred mile race. Any racing ability they had, had long ago been lost.


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## firingo

Hello Smith.
I'm in contact with Lauire Oshaben she say that all of her pigeon coming from her father, What I think she only bred fo color, no racing. 
Thanks


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## jecjr68

I have had my Trentons since 1997. They do fly good at the distances but are very slow maturing and do not do good as youngbirds for me. Bought most of my original birds from Ed Oshaben and had a couple real lengthy conversations with him. Still have children and grandchildren out of those original birds in my breeding loft. 
There is two main problems that has happened with the Trenton strain in my opinion. Most were bred for color and not flying ability. The other no one would spend the extra time to let the birds mature enough to fly the distance since most club races are under 400 miles and only a few over that in a season. Bred crosses from a great family of Grooters that competed in short races for me. Then the Grooters, Trentons, and even the crosses excelled in the long distance races. 
Don't fly in a club anymore but still breed and fly my homers. I still have the family of Grooters and Trentons and my lifetime goal is to keep them as pure as possible to pass on. So some of the old stuff still remains because there are two types of flyers, one that creates and maintains the family and one that flies on hybrid vigor of crossing bloodlines. Nothing wrong with either one in my book but you need both to keep the sport alive.


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## Roger Siemens

ok guys do guys fly yellow or white trenton birds with any luck or flying ability? do they home? can they be flown 200 miles in a day ? not great races but do they get home? i have much newer breeds from race birds and imports with paper work i m not sure that they all could.


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## Roger Siemens

ok i had fun reading up on alot of info on here and type of pigeon does not matter, for me it is who gets home from 100s of miles. what i do want to do is study up on these guys who started different kinds of homing pigeons, trentons and so many more kinds. the homing pigeon in general can no longer be pure but its become its own breed for sure. so Sablon or Trenton fast growing or slower a homing pigeon is by far one one the great things people have had a hand in building.


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## Crazy Pete

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/cutting-back-on-breeders-80617.html

Here ya go Roger, ERIC K should have birds that will go out to 600 miles if you want to send them that far. 

Finding Trentons that fly could be a chore, maybe Laurie would have some for sale.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...cT9mu42Xgc9C3ifdQ&sig2=sDPXFgwGfmFzwVAz0AUODA


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## Roger Siemens

thanks Crazy Pete i will be looking into these birds


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## Roger Siemens

really nice looking breed ,fine colours and really worth looking into


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## Crazy Pete

Do you plan to fly them for fun or in a club?
Dave


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## Roger Siemens

Crazy Pete i want to fly in a club and for fun, Thanks for that information. im impressed at how fair those prices are. I m going to get some after i am settled into my new home back east


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