# Is this Pigeon mourning?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I have a cute little pigeon hen living under my house. I first saw her there with another pigeon last week, a beautiful male who was sadly dying. They seemed to be mates. I picked him up in the evening when I first saw them, and took him inside, but sadly he passed away in his sleep. 

She's been back there every day. She just sits in the spot where she last saw him for most of the day, but there are no obvious signs of illness...she's just a bit quiet. She is is eating well, drinking, looks alert, and flies away when I approach her. But she comes right back.

Would she be mourning, do you think? Or is it more likely that she's sought out the dark place to die from an unseen illness? I tried to catch her yesterday, but couldn't. I'm not sure if I should try again, or just leave her be.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

She may well be mourning.


She may also be confused about not having seen where her Mate went...and is hoping he will return.


If she'd seen him pass away, she would still be Mourning, but, at least she would know he had died, and, would not be wondering about his maybe showing up again.


If her deceased Mate is still available, set him where she has been waiting, so she can see he is passed away.



She may be ill, also, with whatever was afflicting him, on top of all the rest.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> She may well be mourning.
> 
> 
> She may also be confused about not having seen where her Mate went...and is hoping he will return.
> ...


Thanks a lot Phil! I didn't think to keep his body. I can see what you mean about how it would have helped her, poor little girl  I will remember that for next time.

I have managed to make her a special spot where she eats and drinks, and I put some tri- sulfa meds in her water today. They are supposed to help with Cocci, Paratypoid, and e-coli, which seem to be the main illnesses going around in my flock, as far as I can tell without a proper diagnosis. I'll try to catch her later on, just to check her weight and mouth. I really hope she's ok.

Thanks again for your help!


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## Siam Sam (May 16, 2009)

I've seen pigeons mourning. It's a sad sight.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I was able to catch her this afternoon, and I've taken her in. She's a bit skinny. Not emaciated yet, but I don't like that I was able to catch her. Poops are still normal, and she was eating just before I captured her.

I have a Sulfa drug with a blend of Sulfathiazone, Sulfadimidine, and Sulfamerazine (The sulfa med Karyn recommended to me this week was not in stock anywhere, and I think this is very similar). You put it in water and its supposed to treat cocci, salmonella, e-coli, clamydia, respiratory illness. I hope I've caught her in time for it do some good. I have nothing for canker though 

If anyone is still awake, should I syringe her some of this water solution before night time? She is a bit stressed and I'm not sure she will eat or drink again until she's settled, which could be morning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would not syringe anything into her at this time.



But do post some good poop images soon as you can so we can see what those suggest.


Provide warmth...comfort...


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

i think,she is alright,pigeons in wild dont get sick so easily...........so if she eats and drink,then she should be quite okke....keep posted abt her


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

dont syringe,it can do harm to her lungs ,as she may aspirate !!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, could you better describe the med you have, what's it called (trade name), what form is it in (pill, liquid or powder), what are the concentrations of each drug in the med, is there anything else other than the sulfas listed as ingredients?

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I thought I'd answer your question here too, so it might help others.

I am using `Sulfa 3' by Inca. Its a clear liquid. It says on the front: 120g/litre sulfathiazole, 40g/litre sulfadimidine 40g/litre sulfamerazine.

The dose is 6 ml per liter, or 10-12 drops per 100ml. 

I am not sure if I should give her a dose when she settles down, or just let her drink when she's ready. She'll have my kitchen to herself tomorrow morning to explore, and she'll probably have a drink then. 

She looks young too, like an older juvenile rather than a fully mature adult, if that helps. Poor little girl...she's a bit more spooked that the older ones normally are when I take them in.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Might have been a sibling who perished?


Anyway...images of the poops? Soon as you can?


Image of her also..?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Phil,

Thanks a lot.! She is more scared than my usual rescue (maybe because she's in better condition), so I have taken your advice and I am leaving her to settle down for now. Its almost dark here. I'll get some pics for you in the morning, that way there should be some fresh poops as well.

I checked her poops from a rock she was standing on under my house just after I took her in. They looked good to me. Well formed, dark green, some white urates, no puddling. I am thankful for that at least.

PS. the pigeon who died last week was a fully mature male. This hen, though not fully mature, looks too old to be his daughter though...but perhaps I am mistaken?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, it looks like you have found quite a good medicine in this Sulfa 3, similar to the ingredients to the Triple-Sulfa I sometimes recommend, but premixed and easier to use.

The ingredient listing you provided means that this sulfa liquid has a total of 180g/L of meds in it (180,000mg per liter), this means this med is at an 18% (180mg/mL) concentration so will be very easy to mix up and use. Shake the bottle draw out 3cc/mL of the med (you can use a 1cc syringe times 3 to do this) add this to 3cc of pancake/corn syrup and you will now have 9% sulfa suspension to use (90mg/mL). Since you say she is under weight I would dose her 0.15cc/mL (13.5mg, this amount will be basically 3 drops) to start (this will load her system with med quicker) then move to 0.10cc/mL (9mg, 2 drops) after that, you will do this twice a day, so if you give the loading dose now, 12 hours later you will give her her regular dose and so on q12h. Just give a drop at a time to the front of her mouth and let her tongue it down and if you get a weight on her we can fine tune the dosing, refrigerate and shake each time before drawing a dose.

You may want to post up where you got this med, as it may be helpful to others in your country trying to find meds.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Do you think morning would be too late to weigh her and give her the first dose?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, you're the caregiver and since the bird is in your hands you will have to determine the urgency of getting some meds into her. If it is because you are unsure of her weight and want to be more precise in her dosing, sulfas have a pretty broad range of safety and if unsure you could safely immediately give her 0.10cc (9mg) of meds to get some into her, if you felt she should not wait and we can adjust the rest later.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I just gave her the first dose! Thank you SO much, I couldn't have done this without you!! I figured the sooner the better.

I'll weigh her & take pics in the morning.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, good, keep us posted (don't forget to post up where you got the med).

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Karyn! I got the Sulfa 3 from http://www.vetproductsdirect.com/


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, why don't you try calling some of the larger tropical fish stores and ask for Metroplex, Metrazol, Hex-A-Mit, Fishzole and Metronidazole. The brand names I have listed I know are all 100% Metronidazole, do make sure if you do locate some and order in or buy in person that what you are buying is 100% pure Metronidazole, as there are a number of products that do have Metronidazole as their main ingredient, but combine this with other fish meds and these will be no good for us. 

Also here is a link for Metronidazole, it's from Jedd's where I often order from, they are on the west coast and in all likelihood would be familiar with shipping to Australia, also since this brand is clearly marked for fish, it may have an easier time making it past customs, if inspected:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-524/FISH...100/Detail.bok

If you added in the Metronidazole and a good de-wormer to the Sulfa 3 you now have, you would be able to deal with a very good many of the birds you are trying to help that need medications.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Unfortunately Metronidazole & Spartrix can't be purchased from stores here, not even in the form of meds for fish. And the US suppliers like Jedd's don't ship it here. There are even some online stores in Australia that Stock Spartrix (as it was invented here) but it cannot be sold to Australians.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

This is a pic of a dropping from this morning:










Do you have any thoughts?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, the color the urates don't actually look to bad and I had seen much worse looking droppings in my time. They have a mucusy look and are loose, but this is typical of a bird with GI issues, the Sulfa 3 will cover her for bacterial issues as well as cocci issues, just keep doing what you are doing and lets give the meds a week or so and reassess, unless you feel things change in a way you don't like. Get her weighed to see if we need to fine tune her dosing.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot for all your support Karyn! I'll keep giving her the meds for sure. 

The poops took a turn for the worse, unfortunately, just after I posted the picture. During the day, they started to become smelly & poorly formed with a `coiled' string-like appearance with some puddling. Today they are lighter green with the appearance of ` green string' in clear puddles. 

She's alert and active today, and seems less stressed than yesterday.

I'll post weight and more pics soon.

X bella


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*Update*

Dear Karyn and Phil,

Thanks for being so patient with me getting additional info to you. The little hen is very fiesty & stressed by handling. I nearly aspirated her yesterday, she was struggling so much, so her meds are in her drinking water for today. She's very aware of things and struggles constantly when held; i guess I lost my nerve with feeding her drops by mouth. I hope this is not a mistake.

Behaviourally, things are very promising with her- she's alert, quite active, eating and drinking well, and she even had a little fly today. She's the healthiest looking rescue I've had yet.

But she's so skinny. I can still feel her keel bone. Her weight is 230 grams, but I do not know what that means. Is that emaciation or just a bit light?And her poops are getting a little worse. I have a posted picture below so you can see what I mean: 




















Is there anyting else I should do for her? Should there be electrolytes in her water, or ACV? 

At the moment I have 3 ml of Sulfa 3 medication in 500 ml of water for her (recommended dose from bottle).

Today some Amprolium (coccivet) arrived that I ordered, and I also have 2 wormers on hand, one stronger than the other.

I would appreciate some guidance, if anyone has any recommendations.

Thanks heaps!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, you will not need to give the Coccivet, since this little one is already on Sulfa 3, as sulfonamides will effectively treat coccidia. I would give her ACV in the water, but I would start with a lower dose and see how she takes to it, try 1 teaspoon per liter of water. Next I would would change the seed mix she is on, I would not feed her anything large right now, take away/out corn, sunflower seeds peas, unhulled wheat and so on. I would go to the health food store and get some raw, shelled sunflower hearts and add these to her food mix, which should be something like safflower seeds, the raw sunflower hearts, hemp seeds, soft whole wheat, red milo, white milo, barley and some millet.

Please try again with the towel cave for her meds, I always hate to have to rely on medicating by water when a bird is ill, with oral dosing you are always sure they have gotten their meds and the right amount. The amount you are giving is only a few drops, so it should go quite quickly.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 



You can just lightly roll up tiny bits of crustless Bread, and put the 'drops' of Medicine on those, and put those then, one at a time, into her Mouth or Throat for her to swallow.

Like the size of a small dried 'Pea'...rolled lightly is all to be that size.


If they are upset and their Trachea is wide open it is very easy to seriously hurt or kill them when imposing even small amounts of liquids into the Beak or Mouth.


Pretty little Hen..!


She has likely been mildly ill for a while, and has lost some weight.

She will gain it back just fine once well again.

And, for her, who knows, maybe tops is like 300 anyway, or 320...




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, you will not need to give the Coccivet, since this little one is already on Sulfa 3, as sulfonamides will effectively treat coccidia. I would give her ACV in the water, but I would start with a lower dose and see how she takes to it, try 1 teaspoon per liter of water. Next I would would change the seed mix she is on, I would not feed her anything large right now, take away/out corn, sunflower seeds peas, unhulled wheat and so on. I would go to the health food store and get some raw, shelled sunflower hearts and add these to her food mix, which should be something like safflower seeds, the raw sunflower hearts, hemp seeds, soft whole wheat, red milo, white milo, barley and some millet.
> 
> Please try again with the towel cave for her meds, I always hate to have to rely on medicating by water when a bird is ill, with oral dosing you are always sure they have gotten their meds and the right amount. The amount you are giving is only a few drops, so it should go quite quickly.
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

I can't even begin to express how much your advice has helped me....thankyou SO MUCH. Its just wonderful the way you take time out to help novices like me, and I'm sure you've got your hands full already. You're like an Angel.

After reading your post, I stopped being a gutless wonder and tried the towel cave. It worked much better this time and I gave her 3 drops of meds before roost time. Afterwards her poop came out without the puddling, and she must have felt good because she flew up on top my exercise bike in the bathroom to roost, instead of sleeping in her kennel on the ground.

I am especially grateful to you for the food advice too. I have been a bit lost with knowing what to give her. Some people say peas, some people say corn, so I just offered her everything I have. One thing you may not have been able to see in the photo, is I have been putting Vetafarm high protein bird pellets in her mix. They are about the size of rice grains. They have 17% protein, 3.5% fibre, 5% fat. Is this going to be any good for her? I don't know if she's eating them, but she's had them in her dish for 2 days.

Thanks once again Karyn!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> You can just lightly roll up tiny bits of crustless Bread, and put the 'drops' of Medicine on those, and put those then, one at a time, into her Mouth or Throat for her to swallow.
> 
> ...


Dear Phil,

I'm very glad you think she's pretty too! I have a good feeling about her. She just seems to have a lot of life in her, which is such a wonderful change to my usual job of making very ill birds warm & comfortable while they die.

I really like this idea about putting the drops of medicine on very small bits of bread. She loves bread ! Thats how I caught her (bet she regrets it now!) I was very encouraged by your towel cave photos, and the way it can relax a bird so much that she'll peck up food in your lap. 

Do you happen to know how unpalatable Sulfa drugs are for pigeons? 

X Bella


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


I have no idea how palitable or unpalitable various Sulfa Drugs may be Orally when in Liquid form.

The ones I have are Tablets which can be swallowed instantly with little opportunity for them being tasted, or, I dissolve the Tablet and TUbe it directly into their Crop, if they are in too poor of shape or have obstructions preventing normal swallowing.

If I had any Liquid form Sulfas here, I'd try them and see for myself what they taste like.

But, a tiny 'Bread Ball', can be swallowed fast, and, the Meds would soak into it well for there to be not much to taste in that brief moment...for which, tell her what you want to do, show her the Bread-Ball, bring it up to your mouth as if you are tasting it, make some hammy expressions about how 'Good' it is, hold it out for her, and, she might even take it andd eat it on her own...and, if not, just gently open the Beak, and 'pop' it in, lightly hold the Beak closed if need be, to ensure she swallows it.


Having them pecking their Seeds from a little Bowl while on your Lap in the Lap-Towel-Cave, or with just a Hand lightly on their Shoulders, can really help get the point across, that, even if things are odd or strange or different or scarey for the Bird, at least there is a basic platform of Good Will, in terms they will understand.


I just worry about a 'squirmy', likely protesting-resisting Bird, getting any sort of Liquids imposed.


Beforte I knew how to TUbe things directl;y into their Crop, I used to try and find ways of m,aking the Meds-in-Water more sure and better tasting, as some do indeed taste really horrid.


I'd with hold Water over night, add Stevia or Honey or Licorice or all three...make up one Dose of Meds plus a little more, into a one Ounce Shot Glass, and, have them drink that volentarily...then, normal plain water or ACV Water Bowl gets put back.


That can work pretty good also, if say, you have a Bird who has a broken Jaw or something, and, you can not or dare not open the Beak, and, they can not eat normally, so, about all you can do, is prepare things they can and will drink, including Liquid Foods of course.


Your little Hen is likely Spirited and perplexed about the various fussings and handlings, and just requires some re-assurances and terms she can understand, for her to be more willing or easy about being handled or fussed with or having her Beak opened.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I am especially grateful to you for the food advice too. I have been a bit lost with knowing what to give her. Some people say peas, some people say corn, so I just offered her everything I have. One thing you may not have been able to see in the photo, is I have been putting Vetafarm high protein bird pellets in her mix. They are about the size of rice grains. They have 17% protein, 3.5% fibre, 5% fat. Is this going to be any good for her? I don't know if she's eating them, but she's had them in her dish for 2 days.


Bella, once well in health again they can have the larger seeds and corn (try and not make the corn too big, more like pop corn size) and peas and so on, it's just when they are ill we try and take some burden of the digestive system, by removing larger food items, that will be harder to pass and digest and give them a smaller item diet while healing. My own birds are always provided with a dish of pellets, next to their seed dish, and free to eat form either as the feel to. I do not mix the seeds and pellets myself together, as I find they prefer them separate and waste the pellets if mixed by throwing them out to get what seeds they want.

Also, raw sunflower hearts and safflower and even hemp seeds are consider to be higher if fat, while also containing protein and other nutrients, this higher fat content will help add weight back on her quicker. The diet described above is more an ill bird diet and should not be really be used with healthy, normal birds, because of its high fat content, healthy birds should be provided a good quality pigeon mix. If you are not able to buy pigeon mixes where you are, just Google "Pigeon Mix(s)" you will get a number or results and a listing of what goes into them and then it's just a matter of trying to source the items in your area to try and put together your own version of a good mix.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil & Karyn,

Thank you heaps! I really appreciate your help and advice; you are both so very kind.

Phil: Thank you very much for the tip about using soaked mini- bread balls! She was SO squirmy today; even the towel cave with a shot glass of sunflower hearts to peck at wouldn't console her. So I tried giving her the tiny soaked bread balls , and this worked extremely well for us. Thank you SO much for this idea. I would have been gutted if I'd aspirated her.

Karyn: Thanks to your help with feeding her ; I now have her on much smaller seeds, plus sunflower kernels, linseed, and pellets are there in another bowl if she wants them. There is a little ACV in her water now too.

I guess I will just have to wait and see now how she goes.

We have planned to be away over Christmas, so yesterday I had a look around at pet sitting services, just in case she still needs care at the end of the month. I found this really amazing girl, a former vet nurse, who will stop by and feed the hen and change her water, put in meds if necessary for only $10 per day. Amazing!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

That does work well

Good thinkin', Phil. I was using them couple of weeks back on my tumbler, as he has a small beak and mouth. He hated it, but he did swallow them


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

John, That must be so nice to live with a beautiful a Tumbler. Its good to know that the soaked bread trick will work well for smaller mouths too. I will remember that.

PS. I just wanted provide another quick update. The hen's poops are really good today. ..I mean they look normal again! The puddling has gone, and they have good colour, form & urates again....kind of like large raisins in size. 

I'm just over the moon about this. I know you guys must save birds all the time, but I am so used to picking them up in terrible condition and seeing them die within a matter of hours, and feeling like I can't help. And she looks like she really has a lot of hope! Its just means so much to me. I couldn't have done it without you guys holding my hand and giving me direction and confidence. You guys truly are the best.

BTW, Somewhere on the forum I read recently about how some sick pigeons enjoy a mirror. So I put one on the ground , and she really loves it. She likes to be near it and she is preening herself in front of it right now. Seems to give her comfort.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> PS. I just wanted provide another quick update. The hen's poops are really good today. ..I mean they look normal again! The puddling has gone, and they have good colour, form & urates again....kind of like large raisins in size.


Pictures please!!!, we love looking at droppings, especially improved looking ones . Sound like she is responding to the meds and care, keep up the good work.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Karyn,

I had cleaned them all up already when you asked, but here are some from this afternoon. They have changed a bit from what I saw from this morning, but that may be because I changed her feed. She hasn't had sunflower kernels before, so she hasn't been eating much of the good stuff yet. Hopefully this afternoon she'll start nibbling at them.

PS . I sprayed her with some mite and lice spray today, as she's been looking itchy.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Wow!...., what a difference, they are looking like pretty decent droppings, compared to before, good job.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

So far so good..!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps Karyn and Phil for saying they look better! They are looking even better again tonight; its very encouraging.

I guess eventually I'll need to think about worming her & more about the possibility of treating for canker. I'd love to see her put on some weight first, but I guess depending on what her low level illness is exactly, it may prevent weight gain ?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh bella your first post made me cry, poor girl, i'm so glad your taking care of her


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you so much altgirl! I've been so focused on her health, I'd almost forgotten about her mourning


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*Worming*

Dear Karyn and Phil,

Today I weighed my little hen, and she is now 222 grams....she's lost 8grams in weight though I don't know if pigeons have variations in weight throughout he day according to food/water intake. I expect it varies a bit.

She's still looking good, and she's active, eating well etc. The poops are showing just a little bit of puddling again today, but are overall still ok.

Something I have been noticing these past few days, however, is a `yawning' behaviour. I've been monitoring it. She stretches her neck, and then opens her beak wide and `yawns' once or twice. She then shakes her head, sometimes her whole body, and scratches under throat. She's been doing this a lot. I sprayed her with mite/lice spray yesterday, but she still has this irritation under her throat that she wants to scratch often. Now I am thinking the irritation is probably *in* her throat. No signs of canker though. EDIT: I checked her throat again, I cannot see any worms in her throat either. I feel that i cannot rule out canker.

I've seen a very similar behavior in Magpies with gape worm, also the massive weight loss, and I have a sense she may have it too. I'd really like to worm her. Of the two wormers I have, only one treats gape worm. 

Its a product called `Avitrolplus' syrup concentrate

Ingredients are:

10mg/ml Levamisole
Hydrochloride equivalent to 
8.48mg/mlLevamisole base
2mg/ml PraziQUANTEL

The instructions say:

Dilute by adding 0.5ml (12 drops) to 20ml water. Give this as sole drinking water for 24 hours, then again in 14 days. This provides a dose of 40mg/kg bodyweight levamisole Hypochloride & 8mg/kg bodyweight praziquantel, based on an average bodyweight of 30g and consumption of 5ml of liquid per day.
l
Karyn, you're really good at interpreting instruction and i could really use your help. I *think* I need to give her 20 drops of this over 24 hours, based on her body weight. does this sound right?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The 'yawning' and upper Neck oddities of movement, would tend to be from Canker, or maybe, Gape Worms, or a mild inflamitory condition 'in' her Throat ( likely farther down than one could easily see via her open Beak ) and, not likely to be a sign of discomfort arising in response to Lice or Mites.


What is your Metronidazole due to arrive?



Anyway, lets let Karyn review your Wormer-Dose info.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, two things, at the weight she is at, and the vast improvement in her droppings, I would want to hold off on any de-worming treatment until we get some more weight on her. Also, canker is always a concern, but again (Phil could probable add to this) in the last photo her urates look pretty decent, which many times when canker is present can go off color.

The danger sometimes when caring for birds (plus access to vast amounts of information on the Internet) we sometimes start to read too much into minor occurrences or start to think about illnesses that, although are possibilities, as more remote. I myself have never encountered, or people that I know (or seen on this forum) a pigeon with gapeworm. I had a look around and this also seems to be the general consensus in the links I read, this one you may find interesting:

http://www.albertaclassic.net/Discussions/viewtopic.php?t=134&sid=f3800e4d73168fd8786f574d92caf8e2

Bella, it seems like you are committed to doing this, rescuing ill pigeons, and I think right now the single best think you could do for her would be to learn to tube feed. She would benefit greatly from the supplementation in calories and nutrition, plus there will times in the future when knowing how to do this will saves lives, as not only can you feed this way, but also administer meds and hydrate a bird as well. Both Phil and I can help you with this and Vetafarm makes what sounds like a good hand-feeding formula called Neo-Care that should be available locally for you, as another Australian member is using this for her rescue right now.

I have two book recommendations for Levamisole for pigeons, high one and a lower one, the high matches what you mentioned 40mg/kg (once), but the lower is half that at 20mg/kg (once). If we do end up worming her I would feel better if we used the lower dosing range.

In the meantime you could supplement her with some hand-feeding of sunflower hearts, which will help with added calories like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Get her in the towel cave and try for a teaspoon at a time a few times a day.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil,

Thanks heaps for your reply. I'm not really sure if the canker meds will pass customs; I really hope they do but I've never tried doing this before & I am a little afraid to count on them arriving in time for her. 

Also I've been reading about this wormer I have, Avitrol plus, and it sounds risky & a bit scary to use on her without previous experience. I trust that Karyn would know what to do, but if the little hen has canker as well, or instead of, worms, she needs the help of a vet. So I made an appointment to take her to the avian vet on Monday.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, one of the major symptoms for gapeworm in birds difficulty in breathing since they live in, and then obstruct the trachea, causing a bird to open mouth breath (gape) for air, plus coughing, sneezing and noisy breathing. If your little one is doing none of these things, then you should take a deep breath, keep doing what you are doing, supplement her with some hand-feeding and get her into the vet on Monday for some Metronidazole. Please also consider my comments on learning to tube-feed.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I just read your post, after posting my last one about making an appointment to take her to an Avian vet on Monday.

Do you think I should still do this? I have only had horrible experiences with vets & pigeons, so this a leap of faith for me. But they can do crop swabs and fecals, and I don't mind paying for that, especially if I can get canker meds quickly, to help other pigeons. If they even talk about euthanasing, I'll take her an run!

I'm scared of crop feeding/medicating, but your are 100% right- I need this as a skill. I will find the right equipment & buy it; I know you are right about this.

Regarding the gape worm, I hope she doesn't have it, and realize its rare in pigeons. However we do have a big problem with it our immediate surroundings. Mostly the wild turkeys and various corvids get it, but they eat with the feral pigeons daily in our yard, and could easily spread it to them via droppings. Its so serious here that there are 2 families of wild birds we have to de-worm every breeding season to prevent gape worm killing their young. I hate it; its risky. But so far its worked very well with no deaths, and when we don't do it, all their babies die from it. Anyway, this is partially why I suspect gape worm, and also I've seen how young corvids act when they have it. Its a bit different to the `neck wobble, trouble swallowing' behaviour of canker, if that makes sense


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, one of the major symptoms for gapeworm in birds difficulty in breathing since they live in, and then obstruct the trachea, causing a bird to open mouth breath (gape) for air, plus coughing, sneezing and noisy breathing. If your little one is doing none of these things, then you should take a deep breath, keep doing what you are doing, supplement her with some hand-feeding and get her into the vet on Monday for some Metronidazole. Please also consider my comments on learning to tube-feed.
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

You're right, she isn't coughing, sneezing, or breathing noisily. Thank you for helping me to sleep better It means a lot. 

X bella


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, here are a few links to get you and your mind started on this:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=495537&postcount=64

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=516791&postcount=12 (you will not have to cut the tube at such a shape angle, as we are not trying to drill through canker debris)

With the vet, it may be a good idea to see if you could get some Metronidazole, but when talking to the office or making an appointment, be 100% clear in advance that she is a rescue under your care and a pet, to make sure there are no surprises when you get to the vets.

Bella, I forgot to point out in the Albertaclassic link I supplied this post (a little past midway on the page):

_*Karl: To my knowledge, pigeons don't get gapeworm, so a treatment regime would not be necessary. I've discussed this in the past with David Marx who agrees that it's not as problem in pigeons but can be a problem in galliforms - chickens, pheasants, etc.. Gord.*_

Gord Chalmers, and David Marx he speaks of, are both avian vets with a vast amount of knowledge on pigeons.


Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot Karyn, That is comforting news. I told the vet nurse when I made an appointment that she is my pet. And she is, really.Though i suppose she may escape when she is well, and if her spirit desires to be free.

EDIT. I'm totally happy to keep her if she needs/wants that.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

one thing i would like to add bella is i know here in the states we can get metronidazole in pet stores, it's called fish zole in the aquarium section, also can be ordered from piji supply places online.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> one thing i would like to add bella is i know here in the states we can get metronidazole in pet stores, it's called fish zole in the aquarium section, also can be ordered from piji supply places online.


I know altgirl! I am so envious of you guys! Here in OZ we can't get strong antibiotics (Baytril, amoxil, doxycycline etc) or any form of canker meds from stores, not even in fish-med form.

I'm experimenting with importing what I need. I just don't know yet when or if it will arrive. It would be great if I could get the vet to give me some canker meds on Monday, enough to help other birds for the rest breeding season.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

that's such a bummer! you need to find a nice vet that will help you out, they are hard to find but once you find one they are worth their weight in gold.
reading about her reminded me about a pair of seagulls that always nested on the building next to my old studio year after year, one year a raccoon or something came up and killed the babies and what i think was mom, the male seagull cried up on the roof for over a week all day, it absolutely broke my heart, it just goes to show how strong the bonds can be between mated pairs of birds.
i moved my studio home that year i always wondered if he found another mate and is using the same spot to nest, i will have to check in with the people in that building next baby season, everyone watches out for them and feed them


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps for your good wishes altgirl. That was very sad story about the seagull. I'd like to think that they do find mates again eventually. It must just take a bit of time.

I'm so nervous about seeing the vet tomorrow. My stomach is in knots about it. I am so worried they will take her off me and kill her; I wonder if I will be allowed to be with her during the consultation? I wonder if the Avian vet is any good? 

She's not so good today, unfortunately. She's still eating and drinking throughout the day, but she's just started to fluff up & blink a bit, which she hasn't done before. Poops have ranged from looking normal, to looking quite bad again. I hope the vet will help me.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, as she is in your care and you should have a say in what takes place. Did you clarify before hand that she is your bird and a pet?... you should have not have a problem being there during the consultation, as this is normal for visits to the vet. When you arrive, just confirm things again, and take it from there.

When they get down to the weight she is currently at, one of the best things we can do is supply supplemental heat to help them from using up a great deal of calories just to maintain body temperature, have a heating pad under half her cage, set to low, so she can chose to be on or off the extra heat as she likes. Did you try doing some seeds "pops" with her yet and have you had a chance to look through the information on tube feeding?

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Thank you for helping calm my nerves; you really are an Angel.

Its been raining here torrentially for days, so I let the little hen out for a walk today around the house this afternoon. She picked up really well; it made me wonder if she could be a bit depressed from lack of sunlight. And this afternoon her droppings are perfect again. I mixed some plain acidophillus yogurt in with her seed this morning and she has been eating it down. She is still eating frequently and well on her own, thankfully.

I've been watching the tube feeding videos today. It scares the heck out of me, but not so much that I wouldn't do it to save a life. 

Vetafarm have a set of crop needles, but they are really expensive, and even if we could afford it right now, I don't think they would arrive in time to help if I ordered it online. I'll ask the Vet tomorrow if he has anything he can sell me. Just in case nothing comes up, I have been fiddling with a large syringe and a nice soft tube attached, about 5mm in diameter. The tube seemed too large at first, but when I watched the videos, it looks about right in size. I might have to use it.

She's got two more doses of the sulfa meds left (to make it a total of seven days) but I am thinking of keeping her on probiotics for tonight and tomorrow morning, to strengthen her in preparation for the new medications she'll be prescribed. The yogurt seems to have a had a good effect on her droppings today.

PS. She has a very warm room, 3 meters X 3 meters, tile floor, heated with a bar heater. This heats up the floor nicely. Sometimes she likes to be close to it, sometimes further away. I haven't needed to hand feed her yet, as she's still eating well.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I've been watching the tube feeding videos today. It scares the heck out of me, but not so much that I wouldn't do it to save a life.


Bella, the first time, is the hardest, as you think for sure you are going to bring harm to them. After doing it just a few times it will seem much less daunting, to where after about a dozen times it will seem straight forward and easy. Like anything, the hard part is it's getting the first go out of the way. The easiest way to do this is to get your rig set up, get her in a towel "burrito" style, lighty lube the tube with a single drop of olive oil, then use the tube/syringe empty to insert it down into her crop and then back out. Once you see it went down and out with not much trouble you can try again with a few CCs' of warm water, give the warm water and out, by the third time you can try 5cc of thin formula and back out. After you do all of this your confidence will grow and you will be much less nervous about giving her a full meal of about 20cc.

You do not need the whole set from Vetafarm, just the 12g (gage) if you did order one, should be under $20. If you could post up a photo of your rig, Phil and I will check it out to see if things look right with it. You may be better of to start using the soft silicone tubing/catheter (size 8 French) type rig, as there is a fair amount of give in the tubing to accommodate any movement from a bird.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Thanks a lot for the tip with buying the single crop needle. I ordered something called `critter care avian', and the 12g needle. Far out I'm scared, but the way you explained the process for building confidence really makes sense. 

Her weight today is 224 grams.

She's blinking a lot now when she's still, which I don't like. But I've seen a lot worse.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Among the other merits of the Silicone Pediatric Urinary/Urethral Catheter ( or section there-of) is that it nicely conforms to an "S" shape of the Neck, if the Bird pulls their Head back somehow, or, if they wiggle as you are trying to use the 'Tube'.


Also, when properly prepared, it can itself wiggle around and through inflamitory debris without force or lateral pressures being caused, and wiuthout it trying to force the Esophagus into a straight lineal conformation in order to pass, thus being greatly kinder to thin, delicate, ulcerated, inflamed, open-leisioned or all round 'iffy' and uncertain Esophagal Tissues.


The section of Catheter can be made even more pliable ( equalling well Boiled Spaghetti in how limp it can be, ) if swirled in hot Water for a few moments, prior to use.


At least here in the Yew Ess, they may be had of any Home Health Care - dash - Home Medical Supply Business, for around eighty or ninety Cents apiece.

You can also literally see the formula or solutions going through the Catheter, since it is approximately clear.


If you accidently go too deep, or if there is a moment of the Bird starting to thrash, it will merely bend easily and softly in the Crop, and in the now "S"shaped length of the Esophagus, instead of tearing or contusing or stretching already possibly very iffy Tissues in the base of the Crop, or in the upper esophagus, as a rigid metallic Lavage Needle would possibly do under those conditions.


Etc...


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

yes bella don' be afraid to tube, once you do it the first time you will see how easy it is with the proper tools.
the most important thing is making the birdie burrito so she can't fight you too much, and you extend her neck and slide it right in, their throats are way bigger than they look, and you can give her crop a feel as you go (i leave the tube in and hold head and tube while i check the crop with my other hand) and put more in if needed.
i watched someome do it once a long time ago and was able to do the first time i tried it with no problems.
there are a lot of pigeon tube feeding lessons on you tube with all different kinds of tubes, you will see.
sometimes when they have canker really bad it is more of a struggle to get the tube in because all that stuff is in their throats is in the way, but i have always been able to get a crop needle past it
as for the vet just tell her/him that she is your beloved pet, and you may want to bring a fresh poop sample in case she doesn't go when she is there.
please let us know what they find


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot for your encouragement with the tube feeding, and for the information about various types of tubes too. 

She's still alive this morning, eating well, and her droppings are excellent. I didn't give her meds last night or this mornings, and gave her probiotics instead (powder form & yogurt mixed in with her food). I wanted to give her system a boost/rest before the next round of drugs, which I expect may be hard on her little body.

I'll report back when I'm back from the vet.

X bella


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Guys!

I'm just back from the vet; its such a huge weight off. I can't believe how scared I was. The elderly vet had a nice manner about him & was patient enough to answer my questions and show me the slides from the fecal and crop swab. 

She's got pretty bad throat canker and a nasty worm infestation. Whatever else she might have had wrong was cleared up nicely from the sulfa drugs that Karyn recommended to me (thanks Karyn!)

The Vet gave her a dose of wormout gel, and treated her with Flagyl. I was a bit worried about the worm treatment. But he seemed to know what he was doing and I do know that wormout gel is very safe and effective. So
fingers crossed! She won't need another dose for 14 days. 

And now I have 14 ml of Flagyl and a 100g jar of Of Ronivet-S ronidazole `for my flock'. I have to give her .5ml flagyl twice day for week. He said to drop it into her mouth and throat because they are affected too. 

He also gave me some moxidectin for external parasites (and internal as well, I believe), which is something I've always wanted. I also picked up a specialist pigeon pellets loaded with vitamins that looks like cracked wheat.

She's back in her warm room, looking a bit down in the dumps. Hopefully after a while she'll feel like eating again.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just as an update, she's already picked up a bit and is now eating and drinking again. I've got a good feeling about her, though I don't want to jump to conclusions.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> I'm just back from the vet; its such a huge weight off. I can't believe how scared I was. The elderly vet had a nice manner about him & was patient enough to answer my questions and show me the slides from the fecal and crop swab.
> 
> ...


Bella, this is welcome new indeed. Now it seems you do have professional help to turn to if needed, great.

Now the she has the proper meds, her recovery should continue hopefully without any further incident. Does the Flagyl (Metronidazole) say what strength it is at? Worm-Out Gel is safe and effective and should do the job. Moxidectin can also be used internally (it is similar to Ivermectin, stays in the blood longer) what are the detail on its strength? If this is the Ronivet-S you got, http://www.jedds.com/-strse-950/PIGEON-RONIVET-dsh-S-100-g/Detail.bok, it will pretty simple to make up a concentrated suspension to treat birds on an individual basis, instead of treating by water.

They all are a little stress when coming home from the vet, this will pass.

Good going,

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

The Ronivet-S , is 6 % strength. I'd be really grateful for a dose I can give the extremely light male I have just picked up. The container says 4 grams per 4 litres of water, if that helps.

I have it in his water for tonight.

The metronidazole says ` flagyl suspension 200mg/5ml per ml'


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 



I am not understanding the Flagyl solution concentration.

If it ends up being like 35 - 45 mG in 24 hours of the Metronidazole, that would be alright.


She weighs like...220 Grammes or so?


If the concentration is 200 mG per 5 mL of the Solution...then, that is like 40 mG per mL...so at that rate, 1 mL in 24 Hrs, or, .5 mL every 12 Hours, would be right on the money.


Very glad to hear of the positive and productive Vet experience...some good things got done!


Sounds like a very good Vet you found...makes me happy.


Phil
Lv


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## avian (Sep 6, 2010)

if you want to see the pigeons happy again give it a mate to live with


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh yay bella!! i just love nice vets, it was a struggle to find one in my area for a long time, the ones who would help me would only help me some of the time, it was hit or miss with them, they drove me crazy, then they hired a new vet and he would always help me if he was in.
now he has is own practice and whenever i call he will see the animal i have usually that day, he's soo sweet, and such a help when something has me puzzled.
so glad he found something, not good in itself but she has curable things and it explains her condition.
hopefully it's all downhill from here and her health will improve quickly


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Karyn,
> 
> The Ronivet-S , is 6 % strength. I'd be really grateful for a dose I can give the extremely light male I have just picked up. The container says 4 grams per 4 litres of water, if that helps.
> 
> ...


Yes, we can do this. Hopefully there is a small scope in the jar and the instructions say something like "each scope contains "X" amount" of the med, please report if there is a scope and how much does it say each scope holds.

The dose for the Flagyl sounds about right, each 0.50mL will be 20mg of Metronidazole.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot everyone!

It cost me $300 to see the Vet and get some meds, plus I lost some income from taking half a day out of work. I'm not complaining- its just that the Vet isn't going to be affordable for every rescued bird We justified this visit (my partner and I) because we needed prescription meds quickly and we thought we could use them for other birds as well.

She is GREAT this morning! Her droppings have long worms in them, and look fantastic. She's gobbling down her food and is very active. I am expecting the best for her.

Karyn,

Regarding the Ronivet-S 6%, there is a spoon in the jar that scoops a level 4 grams. My scales will measure down to 1 gram. This is a little tricky; do you think I can mix it up into something for the other sick guy?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, again, I'm very glad you got her the extra help and meds she needed and you are quite right in the fact people will not always be able to spend $300 on a rescue, you should be commended for making the sacrifice to do this. good on you.

With the Ronidazole, unless you have a jewelers scale or an accurate scientific scale, measuring amounts in grams, especially meds, can be problematic, as some meds do not have the safety margin others do, and while Ronidazole is a safe med when used right, its dosing amounts are a fraction of Metronidazole's, so we need to be accurate.

I would prefer to use the scoop that came with the med and first measure out a level scope, 4 grams. Once you get a little use to the percentages and math, taking a powdered med and making it into a suspension for oral dosing is fairly straight forward. The 6% indicated on the label means that there are 60mg of pure Ronidazole in each measured gram of the Ronivet-S you have, so each scoop of 4g will have 240mg of Ronidazole in it.

I want you to measure out one scoop (240mg/4g), place this on a glossy magazine cover, and use a business card to divide this little pile evenly in half and put one half back in to the Ronivet-S container. Get a shot-glass (the kind for liquor) and place the 1/2 pile of med (120mg/2g) into it, and first add 1cc of warm water and stir in, then measure 5cc of pancake syrup and add this in and stir it all together, cover let sit 15 minutes, stir again and you will now have a 2% Ronidazole suspension, 20mg/mL, to orally dose with.

The dosing called for Ronidazole for pigeons is 12.5mg/kg q24h for 6 days. So if I remember right your new bird weighs 220 grams with means he needs to get 2.75mg every 24h. We can safely round up to 3mg, so get a 1cc syringe and measure to the midway between the first and second line 0.15cc (3mg) and dose him once a day with the suspesion for 6 days.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn , my Angel

I REALLY appreciate your help with this. I will mix up the suspension and dose him today. 

Karyn,
I am getting a bit freaked out with all the liquid meds I have to pour into these guys. The bread ball technique just wn't work for the quanities I have to get into them now. 

The Vet showed me to tilt the hen's head up 45 degrees, and then tilt it sideways 45 degrees, and drop the liquid into her beak slowly. He made it look so easy, but I am so worried about aspiration. Should the eye-dropper/syringe, be closer to the tip of the beak, or closer to the base when I drop liquid in? And how far open should the beak be? I would appreciate any advice or tips you have, if you have a moment?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, to tell you the truth, when I medicate a bird I almost always do it now by tube, I mix the med in a few CCs'' of warm water and down the hatch. When I do mix, or give instructions to mix, meds that are to be given by mouth I almost always try and make them as concentrated as practical for this reason you mention, so you will need just a few drops to get the meds into them, both for speed and safety. The Ronidazole dose for your new bird, 0.15cc, is basically 3 drops, canker meds, are one of the meds that I think are good to give at the mouth, so when swallowing the meds will have contact with any sensitive pathogen while travel down to the crop. I cut the tip of a 1cc syringe on a 45 degree angle, this makes things a bit easier and place a drop midway into their mouth and they will swallow, to give a few drops this way is never too hard, if you have them wrapped well in a towel for extra control.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

That makes so much sense, thankyou. 

Have you ever come across a good diagram of a pigeon's open mouth? I have been looking but so far haven't found one. think that could help me a lot. 

I've got some idea that the entrance to the crop is behind the opening to the trachea, and you have to get into the entrance of the crop from behind the windpipe entry, to the back left or right, without covering the windpipe entrance in the process. 

I noticed the Vet used a 1 cc syringe to dispense the worm meds directly into her crop- is this hard to do?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, I am attaching a photo of an open mouth showing the glottis, this is what the opening is called to their trachea/windpipe. As you can see it's a very short distance in, and at the base of their tongue, so once you have something inserted more than say 1 1/2" you are well past their windpipe opening. The way the vet gave the meds you describe, using a 1cc syringe, was not directly into the birds crop, but he was using the syringe, because of its small diameter, like a short tube to get past the glottis and part way down the bird's esophagus, where the meds given here will make their way down into the crop, you need a tube to be at least 4" in to be directly down into the crop. You only do this method, the 1cc syringe, when you have just a few drops to administer, any more then you would use a proper tube that would go right down into the crop.

So although the esophagus opening is mostly closed off in the photo because of the position the head is being held (being kinda' pushed down), a tube would go over the the glottis area, this is why you lift the in an almost straight up angle, to make an easy mostly straight path down, and slid down into the crop.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,
I really appreciated the picture; that really helps a lot. 

And thanks again for the instructions for mixing up Ronivet; I was able to dose him properly today and its a big weight off. I guess I'll wait and see how he goes with these two meds for a few days. He looks better today than he did yesterday...more alert.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


Unless I have a Pigeon with an injured, dislocated, or broken Jaw, or injured Beak, I always use 'The Tube' for dispensing Med Solutions also.

In my use of it, the Tube is inserted to be all the way into the Crop to where it is in fact close to the Bottom of the Crop.

An Eyedropper, or, a Syringe with no 'Tube' on it, can only dispense into the opening of the Esophagus or only slightly into the Esophagus.

Liquids put into the Esophagus merely, while usually trickling down nicely enough, can also come spurting back up and or into their Trachea then, if the Bird happens to contract the Muscles governing the Esophagus or it's mannaer of permitting things to pass.

Imagine the Bird's Esophagus as being the same location in the rearmost downward aspect of the Mouth as your own is, and, then, in the Bird's case, their Trachea would be about where the rearward area of our Tongue is, far as how those are arranged. Their Tracheal opening is located in front of their Throat/Esophagus, and is a distinct and seperate opening.

Healthy Birds, their Throat is usually hard to see, is in effect 'closed', and, will appear small in diameter if open at all.

Sore Throat Birds, various kinds of sick, their Throat will appear wider, wide open, wide enough for a Finbger to pass into even, and or dark or purple or not a nice 'Shell Pink' anyway.



Healthy Birds, the Trachea will open and close, opening only slightly, for taking in a Breath every couple seconds.

Sick Birds, the Trachea opening may appear to be quite large, and not closing at all between Breaths.



Hence, the danger, in dealing with Sick Birds, of any fluids being expelled upward from the Crop or Esophagus, ( nervousness, excitement, panic moments, can do this ) or, which happen to be spilled or dripped from the outside, into the proximity of the widely dialated Tracheal opening.


Formula being administered with too short a 'Tube', or, with a right length Tube which is not inserted far enough into the Crop itself, can sometimes come gushing right back out, when they are being dispensed into what is actually the lower portion merely of the narrow length of the Esophagus itself, instead of into the ample wideness of the Crop proper.


This, with a Sick Bird, can very easily result in fatailty, or a terrible and life threatening complex Pnmuemonia, for them getting Formula into the typically over-wide and non-closing opening of their Trachea, where, with the next incoming Breath, the formujla is carried down into the Lungs.


PPMV Birds particularly may be having troubles operating in a normally instinctively reflex sort of way, and their Trachea may not close fast enough or close at all in moments where fluids are insulting it's vulnerable wide-open-ness.

So...one has to be watchful and mindful of these things.



The 'Tube' you showed in the Image with the Gruel, was too short, and, had a wrong sort of end cut on it, as well as that, at a glance anyway, there was something about it suggesting that it were far too rigid.

That Outfit as shown, alone, provides at least two ways to kill or seriously harm, a Vulnerable or Compromised Bird/Pigeon.


We should review the details for a Tube apparatis.


Phil
Lv


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot for your feedback Phil, and your cautions!

I guess its good that I busted my large syringe before practicing getting a tube down his crop. Though it may have looked smaller than it actually was, as the tube itself was around 6-7 inches long. Sorry I didn't get a chance to answer your questions about it properly at the time, but it is a soft `gel' tube, that doesn't hold shape when you tip it horizontally. Its not stiff. But its also probably not ideal either. Hopefully the crop needle and my new syringes will arrive in the next day or so. Until then I am using eye droppers and bread balls.

I hate giving the metronidazole in 0.5 ml lots in liquid form to the little hen. I am doing it just like the vet showed me but I still hate it. 

Anyway, she's still alive and thriving. I am so happy with her progress. And her new friend has made some really good progress today on the sulfa meds and Canker syrup. He no longer looks likes he's dying and he's been very active this afternoon. Amazing!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Should be very easy to get new, good 10 mL plain nose Syringes...any home med supply here has them, like 80 Cents apiece or less.


Sorry, thought the Tube you showed was shorter.


The Bird needs to be vertical, held at their low parts and in their wrapping, held betweed one's Thighs as one sits...Bird in a 'Burrito' mode, the Bird's Head pulled UP all the way, so the Neck is vertical and the entire Esophagus is vertical and straight.

Good bright Lighting, so one can see well into the Beak Mouth and Throat once one has the Beak held open...


How to open the Beak and keep it open, is hard to explain though, since one Hand, the Syringe Hand, needs to be free, as the other Hand manages the admission and operation of the Syringe/Tube affair.

I use finger tips of both hands to open the Beak, then, my left hand's ring finger, wraps from around their Back of their Head, to jam into their right side of the open Beak, thus holding it open...as my left little finger tip wraps from the other side of their Jaw upper Neck head area, and helps support and steady their Head.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

when i dose pigeons i use a 1ml/cc syringe and put it down past the airways, havn't had any problems doin it that way myself.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot for your encouragement altgirl and Phil, I really appreciate it heaps!

I still don't have my new syringes and crop needle, so I am trying to make do with my eye droppers and 1 cc syringe.

I just wanted to say that both birds had a good day today. My little hen is making leaps and bounds in her recovery. I spent some really nice time with her today, letting her out to roam the house and check out the views from various windows. She tested her wings out a bit, and was very interested in seeing whats happening outside. 

I had a bit of time to train her to step onto my hand instead of my having to `grab' her when she needs to take meds. She was really good and did it twice. She has this really nice way about her. She waggles her tail side to side and shuffles from foot to foot when I praise her or let her go after a med session. She's full of charisma, this little one. I am so happy she is looking so well.

The `new guy' ,who is very ill, is progressing too. I have no idea how much weight gain is right for a ill bird, but he gained 3 grams in one day. And he no longer sits `stunned', like he is dying. I let him out for a couple of hours this afternoon again to peck and be free for a while. He is so strong for such a light & sick bird. He did another fly, this time from one room to another, and landed on top of a tall cupboard. I was amazed. I praised him heaps and gave him some food to peck up there and he ate a good amount. I took him back later to his warm room.

Little hen loves being close to his Kennel and checking him out. ALmost as much as she lovers checking herself out in the mirror.

So its been another good day...lots of progress, and the birds seem like they had happiness in their days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


Very happy to hear...


Images of each of them?


And, their respective poops de jur?



Phil
Lv


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

maybe there is love in the air


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Phil, Karyn, and altgirl,

Thanks a lot for your comments and support. I am SO busy; I'm working very long hours and cleaning up after and caring for my two gorgeous birds takes up every second outside of that. I feel very overwhelmed. And I don't feel like I'm getting everything done properly. 

My little hen took a bit of bad turn today, after I put her on ronidazole suspension for 2 doses instead of the flagyl. Her droppings started to puddle just slightly again and became a bit lighter green. She's a bit more puffed up than usual too. I dunno if she's still got a bit of an infection and needs more antibiotic, or the ronidazole just wasn't right for her. EDIT: I should also mention that her droppings were badly caked onto her vent this morning in one big mass. I had to give her a warm bath and clean the vent area for her to poop properly again. I don't know if this affected things?

The other guy is still responding really well to the antibiotic and canker meds. 

Anyway sorry no photos yet- just haven't had the time. I'll get onto it on the weekend.

Hugs, and thanks so much for your support!

X Bella


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, please review what meds little hen is currently on and amount.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, please review what meds little hen is currently on and amount.
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

Last night I gave her the Ronidazole suspension instead of Flagyl. I gave her the same dose as the other guy ie 0.15 cc

This morning she wasn't looking crash hot and I couldn't find her droppings. Then I noticed the issues with her vent and the droppings were all caked to there. Not sure if she was getting the poop out properly. I gave her a bath and cleaned the area, then I gave her meds. I gave her a dribbling of flagyl in the mouth, about 0 .25 ml and 0.15 cc Ronidazole suspension.

She started to deteriorate during the day. Some Spartrix arrived that a friend sent me a few weeks ago, and I gave her half a 10mg tablet. Her poops seem to be improving since then (I just looked and she's done 2 new ones that have no puddling- its getting towards her roosting time) , and she's eating well, but still a bit puffed up.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 



Yes, inspect their Vents, make sure no 'build ups' are permitted to occur...


Each of the 'ZOLES' have slightly differing territories, as for the range of Micro-Organisms they address.


While all the 'Zoles' tend to be casually recommended for Canker, it is likely that the instances of it may have secondary or attending fauna of some sort, in addition to how some strains of the Canker Organism may be more sentivie to one or an other Medicine, where, one Medicine of course then, would be more effective than another.


If the Carnidazole ( 'Spartix' ) seems to you to be giving the best response, may as well stay with it a while and see if it appears to be managing well.

Clogged Vents can kill them in a few days, so, now you know to be checking for that, so it will not happen or build up.


Keep them warm...


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sometimes you just have to let the bird tell you what is agreeing, or not agreeing with them, so the change seemed to come with the Ronidazole and improved with the Spartrix, I would stop the Ronidazole and continue with just the Flagyl and Spartrix (Spartrix, once a day for three days). She should be finished her course of canker meds before long, is she sill on the Sulfa 3? Do you have the date marked down when you will give her the follow-up treatment for worms?

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks a lot Karyn and Phil!

I can't even express how much your feedback means to me.

Karyn, She had 6 days of the Sulfa 3 meds, which ended the day before she started canker treatment. Do you think she could continue the sulfa meds as a precaution? Would it be ok?

I'll let you know how she is tomorrow, and maybe that will make it easier to advise me.

I feel kind of silly changing her canker meds from what the vet gave me, but I honestly think the risk of pouring so many ml's of metronidazle down her throat twice day was too risky for aspiration. So even if she's a bit off now, if the spartrix works, it will be worth it. I just hope it works.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

For future occasions..it'd be good if you can get some Metronidazole in Tablet form, like, 60 mG size Tablets...popped into the Beak in parts or whole, very easy for the Pigeon to simply swallow it.


What form did the Vet provide?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh no! Her droppings look like this this morning(below). Theres a little bit of blood in it too.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, you did not answer my question is she still on the Sulfa 3?

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks a lot Karyn and Phil!
> 
> I can't even express how much your feedback means to me.
> 
> Karyn, She had 6 days of the Sulfa 3 meds, which ended the day before she started canker treatment. Do you think she could continue the sulfa meds as a precaution? Would it be ok?



Dear Karyn,

Above I have quoted my post from last night (a page back)...just so you know I'm listening and answering your questions. 


She finished the sulfa meds last Sunday, so she's had 4 days of no antibiotics.

Would it be ok to put her on Sulfa 3 again?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, to tell you the truth, I thought she was still on them, A normal course for a quite ill bird, would be 10-14 days.

Start her again for 7 days and well reassess then.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for letting me know that Karyn! Instructions on the bottle said 5 days, or 7 days for Cocci. I had her on them for 6 days and on the 7th day the Vet said she didn't have cocci....so I thought she'd finished with the antibiotics.

Is resistance to antibiotics something I need to worry about in this case, since she's been off for 4 days?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

What the bottle says are typical schedules, but sometimes with very ill birds they can be on antibiotics for a number of weeks. Let's see how quickly she responds to being back on them. I myself would rather finish a bit later that a bit early,t o help guard against having any resistant bacteria develop.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> For future occasions..it'd be good if you can get some Metronidazole in Tablet form, like, 60 mG size Tablets...popped into the Beak in parts or whole, very easy for the Pigeon to simply swallow it.
> 
> 
> What form did the Vet provide?


Dear Phil,

The Vet gave me liquid metronidazole in a suspension. I would have liked to keep her on it because that's what he gave me. But the dose was 0.5 ml (and eye-dropper full) twice a day, and it wasn't going very well. She was squirming a lot & shaking it out of her mouth. I was mostly terrified of aspiration, but I was also concerned that she might not be getting enough of it down.

PS. Phil, I would be grateful if you look at her dropping from this morning and let me know what you think about it?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, when you see frank blood (the bright red blood) in dropping it is usually indicative of either a GI infection or reproductive infection and needs to be treat aggressively. You have the meds that would in many circumstances be used for this, Metronidazole and the Sulfa 3 (many times a med call TMS, Trimethoprim/sulfa would be used, but the Sulfa 3 will stand in for this). 

Is she still getting the Metronidazole, you could give half the 0.50cc on brad balls, 0.25cc (about 5 drops) and the rest orally.

I don't know what you time is like there, but I would give her three doses of the Sulfa 3 Today and move to twice a day dosing the next, to load her system quicker with the Sulfonamides.

Bella can we get a current weight on her I want to make sure we are at the higher end of the dosing range for her.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Thanks a lot for your explanation and also for your advice...it means a lot. Her weight is 210 grams.

I gave her half a spartrix tablet this morning along with 3-4 drops approx of sulfa med suspension on bread balls. Its very warm in her room so I guess i just have to wait and see if she makes any improvements. She's looking in a bad way

I do have time to hand feed her bread balls with sulfa & metronidazole again at midday.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. I am wondering if the worming can cause the GI infection? Over the past few days she has released a lot of really big worms in her droppings. They looked like thread worms, but around and inch or so long.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


I think Worming could cause the Worms to let go of the Intestinge's lining, which then leaves tiny open Bites no longer being covered by their little Mouths, where, in the time it takes for the open bites to heal, various Bacteria or other Organiosms could opportune and begin localized ( or systemicly inclined ) infections.

Do resume the Sulfas as Karyn suggests.


Have you practiced using the Tube for dispensing Meds directly into the Crop?


What various meds do you have there, all tolled?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Please post up a photos of any more worms that pass so we can see what they look like.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If it was frank Blood in the poops and a non wilting Bird...I would not be as concerned.

I am inclined to think an additional Antibiotic, Enroflaxyn maybe, or Doxycycline, might be prudent.


But then, there was an intermission of the Sulfas...so...hard to judge...


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Phil,

For antibiotics, I have the sulfa 3 and I may receive some medpet (amoxyl) from Jedd's soon. It will probably get here Monday (or Tuesday your time).

I also have something called salmocoli, a mix of Cloranfenicol, Furazolidona & neomicina. Not much info about amounts, other than dosage, so it may not help. May also be too strong for her.

I have coccivet, made of Amprolium.

I now have the 3 canker meds. The spartrix is in tablet form, and the Ronidazole and Metrodazole are in liquid suspension form.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Actually, just read the label of the salmocoli:

It says 3% cloranfenicol, 3% furzolidona, 3 % neomicina per 100grams

This may be the strongest thing I will have for Gi problems until the Amoxyl arrives.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

Hmmmmmmm...


I don;'t know those other meds.


Maybe Karyn will.

What concerns me in any instance of frank Blood, or any sort of Blood in the poops, is that there could be a systemic infection in addition to whatever localised ones as may be in the Intestines proper.

Amoxyl would be a good choice if you had it on hand now.


Waiting for Karyn's evaluations/ideas.



How does the Pigeon seem overall to-day?


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, let's see how she responds to going back on the Sulfa 3. The Salmocoli, has three meds that would work well for a number of bacterial issues, but your are right, may be harder on her than than the sulfa. So lets at least give it 48 hours, unless there is a drastic worsening in her condition, to see if things improve.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> How does the Pigeon seem overall to-day?
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Dear Phil,

She's not good at all today  She has the look of a pigeon fighting off death. She seems to be in a lot of pain, and her eyes are opening and slowly closing. But then at other times she perks up a bit and goes to her seed bowl to eat enthusiastically. No change in her droppings yet.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, let's see how she responds to going back on the Sulfa 3. The Salmocoli, has three meds that would work well for a number of bacterial issues, but your are right, may be harder on her than than the sulfa. So lets at least give it 48 hours, unless there is a drastic worsening in her condition, to see if things improve.
> 
> Karyn


That makes a lot of sense. I hope for at least some little change by night fall.
She has 2 more med sessions before then.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, just in case could you give some more information of the Salmocoli. Who is the maker, how is it packaged (example, 50g, or 100g) does it say the concentration of activity for each of the the antibiotics in the med, what are the detailed instructions. If you are not happy with the way she looks overnight, we may make a change in meds.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I got this stuff from www.mercasystems.com; they are spanish. This was before someone told me that 3 in one medications are not usually a great idea. 

http://www.mercasystems.com/pigeons...s-coccidiosis-e-infecciones-intestinales.html

It comes in a 100 gram jar of powder.

The concentrations of each drug (Cloranfenicol, Furazolidona, Neomicin) are 3% each per 100 grams.

The instructions are 3 grams per litre of water.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, this is can be true in some case , but I look at the med you have as combination of three antibiotics, to treat bacterial infection (although like sulfas, Furazolidone has activity against cocci) and not like other combo meds that say they will treat canker, worms and bacterial infections and are made up a few classes of medicines, rather than one.

Not saying we will switch, but I am hoping that she responds as well the second time, as she did the first, and the stop and starting didn't make things a little problematic for us. The info you gave is what I needed, is there a measuring scoop in the jar, if so, how much does it say it holds. If she is about the same or slightly better we will give her another day on the sulfas, if she is a little worse still, we will most likely switch.

I want you to stop the Spartrix as well and continue only with the Metronidazole only (as well as the Sulfa 3 of course).

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Thanks a lot! I gave her more sulfa meds via bread balls at lunch time, and about 0.25 ml metronidazole. I'll give her the other 0.25ml dose of met. tonight, plus more sulfa. I'll stop the Spartrix now. 

I'll let you know if her droppings improve at all this afternoon, or get worse. Its encouraging to think the salmocoli might be of use as a last resort after all, though fingers crossed she won't need it.

I have this sense that i have just learned the hard way why worming a very sick bird is a dangerous thing to do


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS.

There is a measuring scoop in with the Salmocoli. It is the size & shape of a level teaspoon (with a very short handle), with a marking that says `1/2' inside at what looks like the half way mark. It doesn't say anywhere how many grams it holds. 

I could use my postal scales to measure out, say 4 grams, and divide that amount up accordingly. Would that work?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just gave her the last (third) course of meds for the day. Her droppings are unchanged, and she still looks deathly ill, poor little thing. Whatever this is its knocking her down.

Hopefully she'll eat now. I'll check on her later. I made her an extra dish of food, with a moist crumble from protein pellets and a bit of yogurt; she liked it when i made that for her before, after her first course of antibiotics. But yeah- she's the worst I've ever seen her. She may not make it tonight.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, provide her with supplemental heat, they usually respond to doing this well when they are feeling very ill. Make sure she stays well hydrated to keep flushing her system as well. Also, can you confirm for me that the instructions for the Salmocoli say that to add one scoop to 1 liter of water, confirming that the 1 scoop = 3g.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn, I'm so glad you're awake. I feel like crying 

To the best of my ability, I weighed the scoop full of salmocoli powder, and its a 4 gram scoop according to my postal scales. 

She has a really nice warm room. But I think she's dying. 

Do you think i could give her a dose somehow of the Salmocoli? I tried to figure it out myself and i just can't. Its 3 grams per litre, but i don't know how to make this into something she can take. At this point I think its her last shot.

Do you think you can help me please? I don't know if she can make the night in this condition.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, give me a few minutes, but please confirm what I asked, do they say, according to them, that the scoop in side is equal to 3g, as I know you weighed a scoop, but as mentioned before, unless you have jeweler's scale or scientific scale, postal scales are notoriously inaccurate for weighing small amounts, especially things like meds where accuracy is very important. I would rather go with what they say that the scoop is equal to, if it does say.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Karyn,

I understand. There is no indication of what the scoop measures. The instructions are 2-3 grams per litre.

I just dosed her. God forgive me if I'm wrong.

I divided a 4 gram scoop carefully into quarters. I used what I thought was 1 gram of powder. The scales confirmed that it was.

To 1 gram powder, I added 2 ml boiled water and 8 ml pancake syrup. Making a 10 ml solution, containing 1 gram powder.

I based her dose on a pigeon drinking 30 ml per day of the 3 gram per litre solution, which is 0.1 ml. I pumped 1 ml of my 1:10 solution slowly, in three lots, down her throat past the windpipe.

So far she's not dead. I just couldn't let her go without trying something, to the best of my ability.

I guess she'll either be alive in the morning and eating, or not.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, 1 gram of the Salmocoli will have 90mg of the three pure meds combined, since the package says that it contains; Cloranfenicol, Furazolidona, Neomicin @ 3% each (3% means there are 30mg per gram, 1000mg, so you would have 3% x 3 meds = 90mg).

You gave about a full day's dose in what you gave 9mg, which is not too bad considering you were not quite sure of things. So you have added 90mg of meds to 10ml of fluid to make a 0.9% suspension, 9mg/mL. The figures I came up with were q24h dosing in the 8-10mg range. I was also going to concentrate in down to 5mL so you did not have to give so much.

If she makes it through the night and you want to redo the med down. Add 1g to 5mL, this will make a 1.8%suspension and dose this at .25cc (4.5mg), twice a day.

I will say a prayer for her.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good Luck Bella!


Keep her warm...of course...


I can not think of anything else to add.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, one other idea for you. Part of what happens when they get extremely ill with an infection is what ends up killing is the toxic overload from the toxins the infection produces, that the body can't clear fast enough. What you can do to help her detoxify is give her some Lactulose syrup : http://www.emedical.com.au/default.asp?pageID=56&itemID=10876 . Give her 0.30cc, every 8h, I know it says it's a laxative, but is also used in birds for toxic conditions, keep flushing her will water as well.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Bless you Karyn & Phil,

I just can't stop crying. She was so well then she is dying. Now she's on this hardcore medication I hardly understand. 

Thank You so much Karyn for telling me I didn't get her dose too messed up. That means more than I can explain. But I am sure you understand.

I'll let you know if she makes it the night; thank you so much for helping me to do everything for her within my means.

X Bella


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, one other idea for you. Part of what happens when they get extremely ill with an infection is what ends up killing is the toxic overload from the toxins the infection produces, that the body can't clear fast enough. What you can do to help her detoxify is give her some Lactulose syrup : http://www.emedical.com.au/default.asp?pageID=56&itemID=10876 . Give her 0.30cc, every 8h, I know it says it's a laxative, but is also used in birds for toxic conditions, keep flushing her will water as well.
> 
> Karyn



Hugs to you Karyn,

If she makes it the night, I'll visit the pharmacy tomorrow to get some of that.
I really appreciate your help!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just woke up and checked her immediately. She is too weak to sit or stand, looks stunned and is breathing shallow breaths through her mouth. I think she will pass away soon.

I wish i knew if its worth rehydrating her at this point or is her body shutting down?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just went back to her, and she passed away with me there.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I have had few moments to recover and dry my eyes now....wow, I don't think I'll ever get used to seeing an animal lose its fight in those last moments. It just hurts and hurts, like no other pain. I suppose that's why I keep trying to help the very ill ones - because of those moments. Because they are so awful and they fight so hard for every moment of life they have.

I wanted to thank you Karyn and Phil with all my heart for all your help with her; She had a longer life because of your help, and I'd like think she even enjoyed herself during the last 2 weeks, with her safe, warm room, unlimited food supply, and moments of feeling very well too. I think she really enjoyed those 2 days after seeing the vet especially. She was just so alive.

It was just a big surprise to see her go downhill so suddenly, literally she was well, then within 24 hours she was gone. I guess she had nothing left on her to fight whatever it was, poor little hen.

I have a lot of questions about what went wrong, but maybe I'll save them for later.

X bella


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh Bella, I have been checking on and off for news on little hen, and I am just so sorry to hear this news. Bless you for all you did her and the care, comfort and love you gave her. 

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I am so sorry for the bad news too  You did so much to help her. And I thought she had a really good chance. You are a heroine and Angel in my eyes; I adore you for everything you gave both of us.

Al my love to you!

X bella


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Bella, I'm so sorry to hear this, Ive been following this thread from the start & really hoped this little bird would make it, youve done so well with so much going on & its a great shame.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you Quazar, Your support means a lot. I just miss her  She was a wonderful bird.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

aww bella i'm so sorry, i was afraid to check back on your post after i saw that she was having trouble, thank you for trying to save her and giving her a peaceful place to pass away


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