# very droopy pigeon, help!



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Aias was on the roof with the cats about an hour ago, when he noticed that they noticed something. There was a pigeon flopping around (once he saw the cats) in the pitch dark, trying to fly away, but totally unable to. 
Aias brought the pigeon in, and right away, I noticed the pigeon's posture was very strange. he holds his head and neck strangely, in a downward position. We looked in the mouth, didn't see canker. No obvious injuries. The feet have some growths/lesions. LOTS of pigeon flies. Young adult pigeon, very light weight, orange eyes, white ceres. Mostly alert, though gets a little sleepy. Really doesn't lift his head at all. No poops yet.
I spent the last 45 minutes giving drops of rehydration solution on the side of his beak, until I saw that the water seemed to be dribbling out at times. But he was obviously swallowing whenever I put any drops. 
Aias is currently uploading some pics, will update with those in the next few minutes.
So i thought of Phil's pigeons since those were the only ones I ever heard of with their heads drooping down. If this pigeon makes it until then, we can take it to Animal General on Friday. But in the meantime, we have Spartrix, Baytril, Ivermectin...maybe a couple other things, I'll have to check.
Will be back with pics in a few...


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

ok aias still working on pics but a little update...1 forest green starvation poop. and the water seems to be bubbling out of the slits in the beak. even if it's been a minute or so since i gave any water (i'm doing it much more slowly now), all of a sudden, it'll come back out. i haven't given more than 10 cc--i mean, a lot of it just drips onto the newspaper. 
also, no respiratory difficulty. when i first saw the position the bird was in, i thought maybe it was a breathing problem. but there's no labored breathing. 
no twirling or stargazing. he can flap his wings and he can walk. though he mostly just stands there with his head down.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*finally the photos*

notice the boils or whatever they are on the feet.










and another one:


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I have to go to sleep soon, Aias will be up for a couple hours. So I'm afraid to give the pigeon any medicine or food, since he seems to have trouble holding down the water and has his head/neck in that weird position. Any advice much appreciated!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sabina, is that pox on his feet?


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

i don't know, we've never had a pigeon with pox before...does pox usually come on the feet?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It can be on the feet.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Any odors when you open the mouth?

Please isolate his dishes from any other pij there and make a solution of 1/2
cup bleach to a gallon of water for cleaning cage/utensils with.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Oh I just pm'd you fp. The bird is in the bathroom, and we haven't given water in a dish cause I'm afraid he'd drown. No odors from the mouth.
Any advice on feeding/medicating tonight? Do you think it's pox on the feet?
Thanks to both you and Charis for responding!
Sabina


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Couple other things...any thoughts on why the water is leaking out/being regurgitated??

Both poops have been formed dark green in the middle of a puddle of water.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Three different kinds of pox, and they can get more than one form at any given
time. They can also get canker at the same time even if you can't see it.

Here's a good link on the different kinds of pox:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=2743

I would suggest keeping the bird on rehydrating solution for tonight and giving
a very watey and small amount of formula tomorrow and see how s/he handles
the first addition of watered formula.

Poor baby is very sick. You might also try some CS internally to aid in drying 
and possible infection.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

What's CS?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Have aias check private messages.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sorry, CS would be Colloidal Silver. The problem w/Diptheritic and Septicemic
types of Pox is that the virus will colonize in the organs and there isn't alot 
that you can do other than providing supportive care.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's definitely pox on the feet. That was a very good rescue of this young one Sabina and Aias .. it is definitely in need of some assistance!

Terry


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Ok thanks. Well we're about to go to sleep, just wanted to find out if we should give any meds or food tonight...the bird drank a bunch on his own, seems more alert, able to walk around, so I think I'll leave some of the solution in the cat carrier with him tonight. Then Aias will have to buy some formula in the morning and try to feed a bit. 
Thanks again for the help!
Sabina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From this link:

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/specificinfections_pox.htm

This quote:

Symptoms of the disease:
There are two forms of pigeon pox:

* In the skin form, birds develop scabby proliferations (pocks), especially where the outer skin meets the mucosa of the eye and beak region, and additionally on the legs. The virus penetrates the skin through minute lesions (scratches, peck lesions and insect bites). The pocks are clearly differentiated from the unchanged skin, but firmly attached to it. (NB: Do not remove them, due to risk of bleeding.)
* In the mucosal form, firmly attached deposits are formed on the mucosa of the crop and pharyngeal cavity. These can impede feed and water uptake and breathing.

The infection usually takes a benign course, providing the skin and mucosal changes - which can also manifest simultaneously - remain confined to the local infection sites. *The general condition is impaired if the virus enters the bloodstream and colonises the internal organs. Pox disease lasts for around 3-4 weeks, or even several weeks or months in undernourished pigeons. Secondary bacterial infections may complicate the disease processes. *

Quotes in bold are mine.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hi Terry, just saw your post. It is an interesting rescue...I'm kind of incredulous as to how this bird made it to the roof of a 6 floor building. We've never had any sick rescues from the pigeons Aias feeds on the roof since if they're well enough to fly up there...well they're in pretty good shape. So it's very mysterious, could he really have gone that downhill so fast??


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hmm I read the other link you posted about pox as well, fp. It sounds like we should start on Spartrix and Baytril tomorrow, to cover possible canker plus secondary infection? It also sounds like he may have pharyngeal/crop lesions, though no problems with the breathing. And definitely this bird is very undernourished!
Ok really going to sleep this time!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, pox isn't a death sentence and many birds survive it on their own .. likewise, many don't. Tis best that this little one found its way to the two of you. It probably can eat and drink quite well on its own. Pox isn't as debilitating as PMV, but it definitely takes a toll on the bird that is trying to stave off the viral disease.

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, I can't advise, but I sure wish your little pidgie the best. I know you two will do your best for it too. 
He's awfully cute, even with those bumpy toes


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I would carefully tube feed this bird for the duration. The bird needs a high 
protein diet. I might hold off on Baytril initially and opt for something like
Trimethopri/Sulpha which will also help w/anaerobic bacteria and Coccidial
overburden as well. It's compatible w/Canker meds.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Poor thing, just checked on him one last time...his poops are just water now. He's drinking pretty greedily, so I left the solution in there. Feel bad not giving any food but we don't have formula till tomorrow anyway, just cat food. Hope he makes it thru the night!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Good luck with this little guy, Sabina. He's lucky he found you guys.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

ok i'm leaving for work in a bit, but just wanted to update--pijie is more alert and upright, drank on his own during the night. we do have formula so aias will feed when gets up a little later. should we offer small seeds?? or safer just to tube-feed?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If there is nothing that is comporomising his digestion, or obstructions in his crop, I would allow him to eat some small seeds.

He will need to be fed also, due to him being malnourished and needing extra right now. You should add extra probiotics to the formula and a drop of ACV to help get some good bacteria going on in his gut. You might also give a drop of colloidal silver down the throat for infection.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sabina said:


> I have to go to sleep soon, Aias will be up for a couple hours. So I'm afraid to give the pigeon any medicine or food, since he seems to have trouble holding down the water and has his head/neck in that weird position. Any advice much appreciated!




Hi sabina, 


This is a very different posture than any of my PMV Pigeons had.


Are you useing an actual rehydration solution?


This looks to me to be consistant wiht starvation/dehydration/candida, or at least prospectively so...

Can you tell if his crop is actually empty? or if there is anything in it?


Can you tube feed rehydration solution into his Crop directly? ( Make it 'tepid') and if so, make it out of ACV-Water...say, three Tablespoons of raw ACV to a Gallon...adding a little Salt and Sugar and Poatasium if possible...


You can just get some plain 'Pedalyte' at any Grocery...and add the ACV to that to the equivelent ratio...


I would consider to rehydrate for 12 - 14 hours anyway, and it might be a Tea Cup full or more he would need...then if you are seeing some white Urates comeing out, begin some very 'thin' and easily digested tube formula feeds.


No telling what all is actually going on with him, but this is what I would do given what there is to go on...


Maybe keep him warm also...he might not be doing well making his own heat right now...

At least he is standing..!


Good luck...!

Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sabina said:


> ok i'm leaving for work in a bit, but just wanted to update--pijie is more alert and upright, drank on his own during the night. we do have formula so aias will feed when gets up a little later. should we offer small seeds?? or safer just to tube-feed?




Hi sabina, 


I would limit his food to thin formula for a day or two anyway, at least...


He might eat gladly like-a-Baby, out of the hollow side of a Nipple, or, if not, then tube feeding him directly into his Crop.


Make a real formula if possible...good ingredients.


If all goes well for a couple days on that, set him up with only very small whole Seeds, Finch Seed or Canary Seed...

If he has starved or has infections in his digestive system, anyhting arger might be too risky as for him getting glogged...

Pox I know nothing about...but if it can effect his Digestive system wiht 'bumps' and inflammations, it is one more reason to tube feed a few days, and see then how he manages with only the smallest whole Seeds...


Best wishes for him..!


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, something that popped in my mind was coccidiosis when you mentioned the water coming back up. Frankly, I think this is one I would "hit" with a full spectrum of meds for cocci, worms, and antibiotic. 

Bless you and Aias.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*no longer droopy*

lil pigeon seems to be doing better, head no longer droopy and is alert.
plenty of liquid poo. just fed 20 cc in the last 20 minutes.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*better looking poo*

after digesting the formula the pigeon's poo is looking better formed but still a lot of water loss.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...glad to hear so-far-so-good..!


Maybe consider to treat for Coccidiosis in a week or so...is there an Avian Vet whom you could appeal to for a fecal analysis?


Anyway, it might clear up soon and not be from a disease proper...so, see what happens over the next four or five or six days...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*coughed up a tree!*

the little one has gotten backed up, fortunately and incredibly in its efforts to empty its crop by vomiting it coughed up this:










i hope that is the only thing that was in there. in case you cant tell what it is, it is a big leaf, about an inch and half in length, i put the quarter in there for perspective.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OH MY Gosh !!! No wonder. That is amazing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Aias, 



Jeeeeeze oh Pete..!




I am, sure glad they DID cough that thing 'up'...!



Palpate their Crop thoroughly if gently, from every angle you can, to see if you can feel anything else in there. If it seems to hurt the little one, then maybe lay off pending a few days on the ACV first.


This would lend more 'reason' and rationalle to definitely DO the "ACV-Water" for treating prospective Candida, or, 'Nystatin' if you have any, if you are not already doing so.

Foreign objects such as this can and reliably do cause Candida and other Bacterial, Yeast or other Crop infections, and these infections can close off the passage to the Stomach as well as effect their digestive system as a whole...which might be 'why' the 'water' was sometimes comeing back 'out'.

So, I'd say, get on with the AVC-Water for all her hydration occasions ( drinking, formula mixing, etc ) if you have not done so already.


I suspected something Crop-Digestion wise from the image...but I did not remember to ask you to palpate her Crop to see if you could feel any foreign objects there, or to see if she reacted as if it hurt to do so...so, this is a good thing for us all to remember!

These things happen, and they can be deadly...

So, I am deeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-lighted to see the damned thing up-chucked and out of there!

Get hopping with the ACV-Water ( or Nystatin ) if you are not doing so already...!


Best wishes you two..!


Phil
l v


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*how can i feed if crop not empty?*

how can i feed if crop not empty?
the poor thing has been throwing up a lot and it is maybe a quarter full the crop, the vomit, like all vomit stinks. some did get digested judging from the much better poo.

so should i wait until the crop is totally empty before feeding, what should i do? and yes, it has been getting acv in the water and formula.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your not going to be able to feed normally if the crop isn't emptying.
You can give a combo of IRS w/a dash of formula to give the bird enough
nutrients to survive on but you can't feed. I would get this bird into
AG because if the bird has a forest in the crop, there could be something
else stuck there that likely will cause problems for the bird. In the meantime,
I'd keep it "simple".

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Oh Aias, I am amazed at what this little one coughed up. Can't imagine how he swallowed a leaf that size or even why he would attempt to swallow it in the first place.

I'd go with what fp said about adding a small amount of formula to the fluids you're giving it. Lets hope he will vomit up whatever is left in there.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Oh Aias, I am amazed at what this little one coughed up. Can't imagine how he swallowed a leaf that size or even why he would attempt to swallow it in the first place.
> 
> I'd go with what fp said about adding a small amount of formula to the fluids you're giving it. Lets hope he will vomit up whatever is left in there.


His crop and throat must be very sour. Poor little guy must have been starving to eat something like that.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How's he doing? Have you got any Nystatin that you could give him?

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Still vomiting. Aias fed 12 cc of watery formula and he said he threw up at least 6 cc of it. We can get some Nystatin tomorrow, though hopefully, Aias will be able to take him to AG. I was supposed to call for an appt today but I forgot, so we'll call in the morning. In case for some reason he can't be seen, I'll leave Aias with a prescription for Nystatin.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aias said:


> how can i feed if crop not empty?
> the poor thing has been throwing up a lot and it is maybe a quarter full the crop, the vomit, like all vomit stinks. some did get digested judging from the much better poo.
> 
> so should i wait until the crop is totally empty before feeding, what should i do? and yes, it has been getting acv in the water and formula.




Well, as for trying to get at least some nourishment into him...even if the passage from his Crop to his Stomach is nearly closed and shut down with Candida, some liquid will likely still pass through...

So, you could make some formula which is quite 'thin'...mixing 'K-T' with the ACV-Water ( are you making the ACV-Water to be about three tablespoons of the Vinegar to a Gallon of Water? Four would be fine too, really, for this situation...) and some will get through.


If it were me, and IF I were to be feeding, I'd mix a formula out of 50/50 'Nutrical' & 'K-T' and mix it with ACV-Water...and tube small amounts of it into his Crop.

Mostly too, he needs to be kept well hydrated...


Candida, and or Candida from foreign objects in the Crop...when possible, I try and let them fast for two or three days while things clear out.


Foreign objects, when more than one are present, even if they throw up one or more, one needs somehow to see ALL of the foreign objects come out...one way or another.

Fasting, with the ACV-Water or Nystatin, allows the Crop to empty, and to clear, even if it takes a day or more to do so...and one then may gently palpate and see by 'feel' if there IS any thing in the way of foreign objects remaining...and these can be hard to feel...


If there are still some in there, and he is not throwing them up in a timely fashion, the thing to do is to consult an able Avian Vet, have a simple incision made into the Crop, remove whatever objects are in there, and suture him back up...and soon all will be well and recover nicely most likely, especially if that was his problem to begin with.


If he has the reserves, I'd say let him fast for now, and just keep him hydrated with ACV-Water, pending further evaluations of what may remain of foreign objects in his Crop, and how they shall be dealt with.


Again, it would be best if an incision IS to be made, and made in order to remove any further stubborn objects from his Crop...if the Vet would merely make the incision, do the sensitive removal, and the suturing or close, with no anaesthetic, since the anaesthetic will very likely kill a Bird in this condition ( or with mmany Vets, kill a Bird no matter HOW healthy the Bird was to begin with ) when otherwise they would have managed fine without it.


They manage just fine, without it...and will Live when otherwise the anaesthesia would very likely damage, or outright kill them...

Anyway...good luck..!


Let him fast if he has the reserves to do it, and one way or another, see to it that whatever is still kin his Crop in the way of foreign objects, see to it they are out of there.

And he should recover just fine then.

Mine do anyway, when I get these sorts of things...but they will NOT recover unless ALL foreign objects are got out of there.

Love, 

Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I said earlier that his crop must be very sour, crazy me I meant sore.
I think the possibility still exists that he could have internal Pox. 
That leaf in his crop was just amazing.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

his crop is empty now, he threw up some more formula. he is very weak, he does not have the reserves in my opinion to fast it out. even though he throws up most of it i feel some does get through, seeing that his watery poo is khaki color as opposed to the starvation green it was when i found her.
she is good about drinking on her own, and she drinks a lot.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Aias, 
I think you are exactly right. The bird was starving when you found her, vomiting everything and now you can't continue to starve a starving bird. She just won't make it if you do.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Aias said:


> his crop is empty now, he threw up some more formula. he is very weak, he does not have the reserves in my opinion to fast it out. even though he throws up most of it i feel some does get through, seeing that his watery poo is khaki color as opposed to the starvation green it was when i found her.
> she is good about drinking on her own, and she drinks a lot.



Hi Aias, 


If the 'poo' is undigested formula...likely his digestive system is not functioning as a result of a Candida or kindred infection...but, at least some nourishment, maybe, is being provided none-the-less...


This can be a tough deal of course...and so far as I know, there is nothing more one can do, other than to -


Address the Candida and ancillary compromises with ACV-Water and or Nystatin.


Carefully palpate the Crop when it IS "empty", with a view to identify any additional foriegn objects, ancessed, lumps or other odditys...and to either hope he throws them up also such as they are, or, to have them removed via an incision if possible.


Keep him hydrated with the ACV-Water, and hope he has the reserves to make it long enough for his digestive system to clear itself of the infection, * two or three days is not uncommon, ) so he can start digesting/processing formula or other foods to obtain the nourishment he so desperately needs to make up for privation.

The race between trying to get the Candida cleared up, so he candigestandprocess anything, and, his weakening from starvation, is the drama.


Sometimes also, non-digestable foreign objects or portions of them lodge and clog the Gizzard with infection/inflammation, preventing them from being ground up or masticated in the Gizzard, while spreading same down further as well, or sharing infection with the Crop and Stomach...effectively preventing any meaningful digestive process from occuring, other than a sort of leaking through of formula or water.

I hope this is not what is going on, and, that the foreign objects are or have been limted to his Crop only.


Formula wise, what are you making and useing for him? And what are all the ingredients you are using? Are you mixing it with the ACV-Water? And what concentration of the ACV-Water are yoy using?


Phil
l v


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks everyone for all your help and support. Thanks Phil especially for all your detailed posts, they're very helpful. The brand of formula we're using is Hagen. Aias will have to get back to you on how he's mixing it. The bird was active and feisty this morning, pecking at things, walking around, put up a fight for the feeding. There were white urates with the poo for the first time last night. And no vomiting so far post feeding. So that all seems good. Aias can update later.
Thanks again everyone!
Sabina
p.s. i saw the actual leaf for the first time this am, and it looked very small and unoffending. though i guess now it has dried up and shrunken significantly. maybe it was small and dry when he ate it?? who knows...


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Aias took the pigeon to AG, and get this...fecal analysis negative!! That is a first!! All of our other rescues have had multiple infections, as far as I remember. They said the pigeon was just starving (and obviously had the obstruction before)--he weighs only 180g. And has avian pox. They said it is only contagious thru direct contact, so I'm hoping we can bring the cage out of the bathroom into the main room. As it is now, we have to move the cage every time we need to use the bathroom (we have zero floor space there, there's not even a sink in our bathroom!). Umm what else...I guess since the obstruction seems cleared, we can offer seeds, and supplement with formula a couple times a day. The pigeon was pecking in his cage and the bathtub this am, so seems ready to eat on his own. Has also started preening today. Oh, they did give some Clavamox, I guess to cover for any secondary infections with the pox? That is the update!
Sabina


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Since I don't have the "leaf" in front of me, only a beautiful photo, it appears that it could be the hollowed remains or skin or shell of a red chili pepper, which might have been on a pizza or some such thing. If you know some university student, perhaps he can ask a biology professor (plant taxonomist) to identify the leaf.

Also, I had a pigeon who died last year, who had portions of french fries stuck or wedged in his crop. Don't know if it caused any of his problems, added to them, or just happened to be there and which I noticed upon necropsy They did make him uncomfortable, though.

I have seen some street pigeons here eating small round leaves from a hedge (don't now name of it yet) in mid-summer.

Also last year our feral female ate three flowering _impatiens_ or Busy Lizzie plants from the window sill planter down to the stubs of the stems.

Posture in first picture made me think of PMV, paramyxovirus. Also I thought the pox nodules (or pustules?) could have been seeds the pigeon just happened to be standing on. It's amazing what we see and don't see.

Wishing the best,

Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sabina said:


> Thanks everyone for all your help and support. Thanks Phil especially for all your detailed posts, they're very helpful. The brand of formula we're using is Hagen. Aias will have to get back to you on how he's mixing it. The bird was active and feisty this morning, pecking at things, walking around, put up a fight for the feeding. There were white urates with the poo for the first time last night. And no vomiting so far post feeding. So that all seems good. Aias can update later.
> Thanks again everyone!
> Sabina
> p.s. i saw the actual leaf for the first time this am, and it looked very small and unoffending. though i guess now it has dried up and shrunken significantly. maybe it was small and dry when he ate it?? who knows...



Hi Sabina,



Sounds like things are starting to clear up then...I am so glad to hear this..!


'Hagens' is my favorite...


How are you getting the formula into him?


Anyway, mixing wise - 


Add cool Water to the dry powder, in a little Cup.
DO NOT STIRR
Just add enough Water to cover it, and with about 3/8ths of an inch clear Water on top...cover, let sit for an hour in the frige.


THEN Stirr, thoroughly, while warming in a pan of Hot Water...

Make it soupy-thin...serve when it is body temperature.

Best for him if you would get some 'Nutrical' and add plenty of that to it. ( Any 'petsmart', on the puppy kitten isle )

Do not microwave, do not use 'hot' Tap Water...

If you make enough for a day, make it the night before and freeze it, covered...warm for each use, freeze between uses, make new again last thing at night.


Happy to digress about 'why' for any aspect of this, if you like...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Aias is tube feeding. We have Nutrimin liquid vitamin, we can add that. He mixes the formula by boiling cold water, letting it sit and cool a bit, he adds the warm water to the powder, then adds a bit of cool water to make it the right temperature.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sabina said:


> Aias is tube feeding. We have Nutrimin liquid vitamin, we can add that. He mixes the formula by boiling cold water, letting it sit and cool a bit, he adds the warm water to the powder, then adds a bit of cool water to make it the right temperature.



Hi Sabina, 



Sounds good...makes me happy to hear...


Get some 'Nutrical', skip the artificial 'Vitamines'...weak systems do best with real basic nutrition, and added Viatmines will counteract or conflict or compromise or mess with things more than help...bad for his liver, bad for his kidneys, bad in general...

The 'Hagens', and additionally the 'Nutrical' will actually have more than enough 'Vitamines' and Minerals and other elements to benifit him, just as they are...do not add any more Vitamines.

'Nutrical' has predigested Enzymes and Calories and lots of good things...get some, use it...it is a truely excellent item to have and use...keep it in the frige once it is opened...it is a brown 'goo' comes in a tube, and dissolves perfectly in the formula.


I would never be without it...

Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Ohhhh I thought Nutrical and Nutrimin were the same thing, just perhaps different brands. I had no idea! Ok we'll look for it...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

hi Sabina, 


Yahhhhhh...'Nutrical' is a brown 'goo'...comes in a plastic largish tube...is a true 'food' and then some, and is found on the puppy/kitten isle of Petsmarts or the likes.

If is very good for any frail or weak or recently starved or infant Birds...effortless to digest, chock full of important nutrients and plenty of calories...


It will spoil once opened if not refrigerated...so, keep chilled once it is opened.


You can mix if 50/50 with the 'Hagens' volume wise, and be just fine...



Best wishes!

Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

snoop dog is doing better. 
he is eating on his own, and attacking me when i bust into his home.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Aias said:


> snoop dog is doing better.
> he is eating on his own, and attacking me when i bust into his home.


That sounds very promising. I was very worried about Diesel passing pox
to others around here, but once it was explained to me exactly what kind
of contact to be concerned w/and how to sanitize, there was no more concern
and no problems either regarding contagion.

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Well Snoop (i called him Snoopy cause of his droopiness, Aias has modified that to Snoop dog) does seem more alert etc but he hasn't gained any weight despite all the feeding. Aias feeds him 30cc twice a day, and he has seeds in the cage which he pecks at. His poops are khaki and formed in the center of some mucousy liquid. He didn't vomit at all today, a little bit yesterday. His posture still seems weird to me, though he's not bent over like before. 

Does pox cause diarrhea? Or maybe he has some other viral infection as well? I know amox-clavulanate causes diarrhea in people, so i suppose it could be that. Though the pij had the same diarrhea before he started the med. 

Is there anything we should be putting on the pox lesions on his feet? We have some tea tree oil.

Phil, Aias did pick up some Nutrical today, so we'll add that to the next feeding!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 



Either the Pox is effecting his digestive System, or, he may have some other illness which is.


I do not recall just now what associations I may have come across, or made myself, between 'mucous' in the poops, and possible illnesses known or suspected to cause it.


Coccidiosis maybe...but others will have to say from their experience.


Glad he is doing so well..!


Still some things to solve of course...


Getting back weight can take quite a while sometimes, especially if there is compromise to how well their digestive system is processing the food...and or if they are still ill with something.

Worms of course can compomise them quite a bit, especially if for whatever reason, they had become emaciated already, while the Worms persist...


Good luck..!

Phil
l v


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*snoop dog is dead*

i am sorry to report that snoop dog died while i was feeding him.
he was having laboured breathing all day and while i was feeding him he had a fit/seizure and died.

thanks all for your help.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aias, I am sorry. I had begun to be optimistic that he would recover but apparently he was just too sick to fight off whatever he had. I'm really glad he had you and Sabina to care for him.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Maggie. I never really had become hopeful about him, there was just something not right with the way he looked. Aias had the hands-on contact so experienced him getting more feisty, but to me, he always looked sick. 

Yesterday morning he was making a strange sound, kind of like a grunt but a little higher pitched, and I looked in the cage and his beak was stretched wide open. Then other times he made the sound, and when I looked in, he was just standing there like always. He wasn't really doing it the rest of the day, but apparently today he started making the sound more frequently. Maybe there were pox lesions that were making it hard for him to breathe? I thought there must have lesions further down since his posture still seemed off to me.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm so sorry. You two did everything you could. It just never gets any easier ...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear the sad news.


Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am sorry to hear the news....God bless you for everything you did to help and the love and comfort you gave, that is what counts.


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

thank you. you are all so nice. i still feel sad, its hard no to take it personally.


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