# Stupid Question.



## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi all,
I have posted a couple of times regarding my poorly pigeon...she has breathing difficulties..(please see my post...breathing heavily more help please) here's the stupid question...Could she have a kind of bird asthma??? 
It just seems strange that she is fine first thing in the morning but as she exerts herself, ie, cleaning herself etc ..it gets worse....also Is she better off being kept at room temp, cool or very warm. any advice will be great..she now has a custom made new home in my kitchen...also I have noticed I think she may have pets of her own!!! will it be ok to spray her for mites etc...I didn't want to incase the spray makes her breathing worse.
many thanks
Jayne x


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

beausmammy said:


> Hi all,
> *I have posted a couple of times regarding my poorly pigeon...she has breathing difficulties*..(please see my post...breathing heavily more help please) here's the stupid question...*Could she have a kind of bird asthma??? *
> It just seems strange that she is fine first thing in the morning but as she exerts herself, ie, cleaning herself etc ..it gets worse....
> 
> ...


Hi Jayne,
Here's the link to your original post for those who may have missed it or for those who would like to review it.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18180

Not a stupid question at all.  Personally, I think it would be quite possible for a pigeon to develop asthma. It would at least be something to put on the r/o list.

I would suggest keeping her in a room temp environment, not a cool room, especially with the problems she is having. Make sure she is out of drafts. If she appears to be feeing a bit under the weather, you could add a towel lined heating pad to her 'home'. Place the setting on low & make sure she is able to move off it if she so desires. You could also place a low wattage lamp above her for warmth.

If you do spray for mites, cover her head making sure her entire face is protected.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Possible for her to be allergic to her (pet) "bugs?"


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

wow I never thought of that...
thank you, thankyou...will sort that out asap.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,

I was once told the only stupid question, is the one that went unasked.

Jayne, part of what happens when an infection takes place is inflammation. My first thoughts are that while she is not exerting herself through the night the inflammation subsides, so she appears somewhat better in the morning and as she exerts herself, her symptoms become more pronounced. As for asthma in birds, I don't believe I have heard of this, I suppose anything is possible and maybe others have heard of this, but I would still be leaning towards an infection.

One of our long time members had a bird, the beautiful Henny, who was sick for months with a bacterial RTI that went undiagnosed, despite many vet visits, that most like would have been cured with a course of Doxycycline. You can read about her here http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14465&highlight=Henny . I will warn you in advance it is a long thread, with a heartbreaking ending.

I think what you will get after you read the thread is that vets are only human, make mistakes and don't know everything. Neither do the members of this board for that matter, but the combined knowledge of the members of this broad must be respected as some of it has come with much heartbreak. However, since this happened, I have advocated using Doxycycline along with Baytril(Cipro) to treat RTIs' where there is a lack of specific lab work to indicate just what bacteria is causing the infection as a good "shotgun" approach. I believe this approach has helped save at least one bird, the link I posted in your original thread by pdpbison on a sick bird with a RTI.

If you haven't already, I still think it would be worthwhile to add the Doxycycline to treat Parlsey. You will know within a few days if this treatment is having the desired effect.

In your temperature selection you seem to have left out one, and that is warm. I would be keeping her warm, this helps her conserve energy that will be directed to helping her heal. There are many ways to do this, an electric heating pad set on low with a towel or two on top, so she does not get too hot. You can also use a hot water bottle to do the same, again toweling on top, but you will be needing to change the water through the day. Please leave an unheated space at th end of her cage where she can move to in the event she does somehow become too warm from the external heating source. Also, you could just find her a nice warm spot, you want warm, say around 85-88 degrees or so, not hot.

As for the mites, if she has them you should treat for them, using a pyrethins based product as they are the safest. Please be sure to cover her head when spraying.

Best of luck and please keep us updated.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ron, your post triggered my memory of a little guy, LD, that we picked up on Labor Day, who had severe breathing problems. He was badly infested with mites. Brad ( I believe) suggested he might have air sac mites. Anyhow, although we treated him with antibiotics, I believe the air sac mites may have been the problem because after he went on a 6 week regimen of Ivomec, he greatly improved and is now in the aviary with no symptoms. This is just a thought.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

Good thought, air sac mites may be something to seriously consider. Are they something that Jayne's vet should have easily picked up on? I actually have this med http://www.stuff4birds.com/Iverlux.html on hand, but have never used it so far. Still, for things that are sudden onset I lean towards infection, but if I had this little one, based on your post, I would add Iverlux to my treatment protocol as well.

All the best,

Ron


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

help!!! all this information...I don't know what to do....I will first get rid of his bugs.....secondly, I have been on to my vet and can't get doxycycline for under £55.00 and only in capsule form..( I am also going to phone some other vets.)can anyone in the uk advise where I can get it...the web seems to list a lot but in the states and for humans!! 
thirdly what is ivomec? should I use this aswell as baytrol, also how long is it safe to keep her on baytrol? thanks again
Jayne x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jayne, 

I'm the member that Ron was referring to in his post who lost my pigeon. Any of the "cycline" brand of antibiotics might be worth a shot and depending on what you can get there. Tetracycline is usually pretty easy to get and much cheaper but ask your vet or perhaps one of our UK members will be on to advise you further on how to proceed.

BTW RON, I think your "shotgun" approach in suggesting baytril & doxycycline is a VERY smart thing!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,
s
Ivomec, I am sure, is quite similar to the link I posted for Iverlux. Wow, £55.00 is pretty steep. You don't need much, two capsules of 100 mg should be enough for a course of treatment. I show a recommended dose of 25mg per kg BID (twice a day) so 200 mg should be enough to treat your little one for approximately 10 days. If you can give an exact weigh for her I can be more precise.

If you were in Canada I would be happy to send you the meds, as I could get it to you the next day, perhaps one of our UK members can help out. If you like I can still send you two capsules if it is not possible to get it locally.

All the best,

Ron

_Thanks Brad_


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Air sac mites can apparently be seen, sometimes, in the airways and even crawling up into the mouth. I never observed any on LD but I'm not sure I would have known what I was looking at anyhow.

This is a good site for learning about air sac mites: http://www.geocities.com/canarytales_lindahogan/research.htm (Scroll down until you get to air sac mite info)

We first sprayed LD with Scalex but switched from that to Ivomec (Ivermectin) on his neck for a total period of six weeks. But, keep in mind, we also treated with antibiotics followed by about 5 days of Probios (probiotic).


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes, Maggie you were clear, in that you added the Ivomec in addition to continuing with the antibiotics. Oh, by the way, I am so happy that LD is doing so well.

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Jayne,

I'm so sorry to hear about your birds breathing problems. I think what Ron has said is an excellent idea, as well as taking care of any air sac mites that may be harbouring inside. I would recommend just rubbing the Scatt on, once a month and be done with both internal and external mites, and concentrate on the lung issue. 

http://www.birds2grow.com/prod-scatt.html

Maggie,

I was thinking about about air sac mites myself when Jayne mentioned mites, and would recommend the topical treatment with Scatt, just in case, as it will take care of the internal and external ones at the same time.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Ron, 

When I said that I think your recommendation of the use of baytril in combination with doxycycline was excellent, I didn't just mean in this particular case. I think this combination could save a lot more lives and when we just don't have a definite diagnosis as you stated. This combination of drug therapy seems like an excellent way of killing two birds with one stone, pardon the pun.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brad,

I understood that you meant it as a comment in general on RTIs' and not necessarily in this case.

All the best,

Ron


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi again...I can't get scatt..but I can get a product just for birds that is dropped on to the back of the neck..(can't remember the name) I will pick that up in the morning...apart from the fact that the doxy is really expensive..my vet won't prescribe that along with the Baytril as he thinks it will be too much and may even kill her!! (my local pet feed, and so called pigeon expert said the same) I am really keen to follow you all in your advice...so I will start by getting rid of the mite problem... I can however get tetracycline...and he will prescribe this if I take her in, in the morning..I have made an appointment.....I hope she doesn't get too stressed. So is this correct......1) get rid of mites
2) administer Baytril and Tetracycline
AND YET ANOTHER QUESTION.
How long can I give her the antibiotics for? 
Sorry for being such a fusspot...but I just don't want to get this wrong!!!!!MY VET IS HOPELESS!!!!
thank you all again, again.......Jayne x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jayne, 

Your vet should be able to tell you the needed courses for each antibiotic when you go to him/her tomorrow. It's generally 5-10 days of treatment but like Ron mentioned, you should be able to see an improvement within a few days if either antibiotic is working as it should. 

I think this plan sounds very promising and will definitely rule out a lot of things that might be going on with her.

Good luck, try not to worry. When you take her to the vet's, make sure she is calm, the transport cage is cloaked or she's in a dark box during transport.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,

The product that you described the treatment method as being "dropped on the back of the head", most likely will be similar to the Iverlux and Ivomec mentioned.

I am glad to hear of your vets concern for Parlsey and that he will prescribe Tetracycline, which is the family of medicines that is Doxycycline is part of. What we are trying to do is treat for a group of bacteria called Chlamydia, in particular Chlamydia Pneumoniae, and drugs belonging to the tetracycline family are drugs of choice to treat for this. Usually it's Doxycycline, but Tetracycline will work as well.

A typical course of treatment is 5-10 days, but if is being effective I would say you will see a change with her within a few days. You will want to follow the full course to make sure that all the bacteria are eliminated, even if she seems better before.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jayne asked if she could/should continue the Baytril with the Tetracycline. I don't know the answer to that although I would say yes because Doxy is about the same. Anyone know for sure?

Treesa, did you mean to use Scatt only and leave off the Ivomec or use it together? When I talked with our vet about LD she did tell us to stop the Scatt and go with the Ivomec.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes, the Baytril can be give in conjunction with tetracycline. I would dose first with the Baytril and dose the tetracycline an hour later.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you're actually trying to clear one of the Chlamydial varieties, the prescribed treatment is actually for about a month and a half--usually 45 days. You can clear visible symptoms long before you've cleared what's called "the carrier state". In the case of Chlamydia (recently changed to Chlamydophila) it's a lot more difficult to eradicate the organism in the body than it is to stop the symptoms of the clinical disease.

The Catch-22 is that it's fairly difficult to prove that it's Chlamydophila in the first place for a certainty. However, it's certainly one that you don't want to mess with.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey, thanks for jumping in.

Ron


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Thank you all so much....dare I say she is looking a little better this morning!!!
I will keep you all upto date...speak soon, Jayne x


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Well, we always like to hear a little better, than a little worse. 

Hoping she continues to improve.

All the best,

Ron


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi All..here's the news we have all been waiting for...she is so much better!!!.
My visit to the vet didn't go well, he would not prescribe anything else other than the baytril...he had never heard of air sac mites, and told me it must be a condition found in hotter countries.!!!??? He said that if I tried to de-mite her it would probably kill her and in short he suggested that it would be better for her to have her put to sleep. I was heart broken. But I had no intention of giving up..(he did allow me to have more Baytril) I upped the dose a tiny bit and kept giving her water and kept the heat up...also put her log where she sits on top of a heat pad. She didn't change for a couple of days, but then when I got up on Friday morning she wasn't breathing with her beak open at all. As the day went on she was very active, even drinking herself, she had a good old flap...she is cleaning herself more and eating loads...I can tell she is getting better because she is very reluctant to be caught and given her Baytril!! on Saturday she even started to pull bits of hay about! I thought she was making a nest!! Her beak seems to be more of a normal colour and she is just beautiful.( If I can work it out I will post a photo of her) I would like to know how long it is safe to give her the Baytril? She has been on it now for 9 days. (She does still breath a little heavier than normal so I know she isn't completely well yet), Once again THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH XXX
Jayne x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jayne, 

I'm so very happy to hear that your bird seems to be improving steadily It doesn't sound like you have the greatest vet to work with, but at least the baytril he has prescribed seems to be doing the trick! How long did he suggest to give it to your pigeon, or how many more days do you have left of dosages? I'd suggest to give it all and for however long until what you've got runs out to be safe. 

Again, I'm very happy for you and that things seem to be turning around in your pigeon's favour. It definitely sounds like she's on the road to recovery!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Teflon*

JAYNE X, You say that the bird has its cage in the kitchen.Remove the cage and bird to another site in your home.Teflon cook emits fumes that can be toxic to the bird and can kill the bird. GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

JAYNE X, Here are some sites on TEFLON www.peteducation.com . www.starlingtalk.com www.feathersandtails.org/teflon.html www.exoticbird.com/teflon.html .GEORGE


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

george, I don't use teflon pans etc...only stainless steel...is that ok?
Jayne x


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

George....I have just read one of the links, I will find somewhere else for her. I am ashamed to say that I rarely cook! I do however have a coffee maker, but that's about it....but better safe than sorry.
thanks for that.
Jayne x


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

JAYNE, Glad that you do not use teflon cook ware and that you have moved the bird to different location.If you are treating the bird continue to do so. GEORGE


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,

I was thinking about Parlsey yesterday and wondering how she was doing, thanks for the positive update. I am very glad to hear she is getting much better.

If you have moved her, please make sure you continue to help with extra warmth for her. I am sure you have, but I just thought I would mention it.

I would also recommend continuing with the Baytril until it's finished and then please keep a very close eye on her for any signs of relapse for the first little while, to make sure she does not require any additional treatment.

After any course of antibiotics it is always good to boost them back up by giving them probiotics for a few days. These can be purchased at many places now days, but usually at health food stores. They will help replenish the good bacteria in her digestive system which they need for a proper functioning immune and digestive system. 

Probably the easiest way for you to do this would be to lightly coat the seeds you are giving her with some very fresh olive oil. You don't need to use very much oil at all, stir the seeds up, then open one of the capsules, they usually come in capsules and sprinkle a little over the seeds. I would do this every second day for a week.

All the best,

Ron


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Jayne,
Many thanks for your update.  
I'm so glad to read that you & your little patient are continuing to stroll down the road to recovery.  

You are doing a wonderful job of caring for her.  

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jayne, thank you so much for this wonderful update. I hope things continue to get better and better. You have done a terrific job with Parsley.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so glad to hear the progress that the bird is making! Wonderful!


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi all, another update and a couple of questions...How well is my little girl!!!
she has been off Baytril now for 3 days and has been having Humus Tea ( pro biotic) since then...she is going wild!! so much so that I have to keep her covered up most of the time, she is flapping at the front of her cage constantly...I think she needs out!!. I have been turning her heat mat off through the day, How long will it be until I can put her into my aviary? her breathing seems fine, and I have sprayed her for bugs!...my aviary is both indoor and outdoor..although there is no heating inside it isn't that cold, and the outdoor part is weather-proofed for the winter, the temperature over here at the moment is quite mild but it won't be too long before we get frost. 
Will it be safe to put her out now? She will be with two other pigeons, a bunch of quails, 2 cockateils, a rosella and a guinea pig!...and again THANK YOU ALL.....Jayne x


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Jayne,

What great news it is to hear Parlsey is feeling so much better, you have done a wonderful job with her.

I am more experienced with indoor birds, so I am going to let the others answer your questions, as there are so many really experienced people here when it comes to outdoor birds and aviaries.

Thanks for the update and please keep us informed on Parlsey.

All the best,

Ron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jayne, 

I'm very happy for you as well, to hear that Parsley is improving steadily and doing so much better

I think you'd be the best judge of her yourself and would know whether or not she's ready to return to the aviary. But like Ron said, maybe you would prefer to get some other opinions first before you decide.

Wishing Parsley continued wellness


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi..spoke too soon!!! she seems to be wheezing again. I am going to put her straight back on baytril.........Jayne x


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is not good.
I wonder if birds can get asthma. Have to look it up when I have time after my exams.

Reti


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

beausmammy said:


> Hi all,
> I have posted a couple of times regarding my poorly pigeon...she has breathing difficulties..(please see my post...breathing heavily more help please) here's the stupid question...Could she have a kind of bird asthma???
> It just seems strange that she is fine first thing in the morning but as she exerts herself, ie, cleaning herself etc ..it gets worse....also Is she better off being kept at room temp, cool or very warm. any advice will be great..she now has a custom made new home in my kitchen...also I have noticed I think she may have pets of her own!!! will it be ok to spray her for mites etc...I didn't want to incase the spray makes her breathing worse.
> many thanks
> Jayne x


Hi again....an update.
Thanks to Jazaroo who sent me meds all the way from Canada!! and constant advice and support...my little girl is (fingers crossed) fit and well...she has been in the house the whole time...I didn't even put my christmas tree up because she was in it's spot!! 
thank you all for your advice on this one...doxy and baytril did the trick.
She is now on probiotics for a few more days..and then I will put her in my aviary..
thanks again
Jayne x


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for the update Jayne. 
Here's hoping things continue on the upswing.  

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi All,

Jayne did email me this morning as well with this update and had a few questions that I thought best to have answered here, as I told her you guys would have the best advice for her.



> The weather here is quite cold..about 5 degrees, although she will be in a well covered, mostly indoor aviary..which is closed during the night, Will this be warm enough for her? There are plenty of cozy corners and she will have 2 other pigeons...and other birds with her is it safe to put her outside?


I was thinking some sort of transition would be nice, since Parlsey has been indoors with extra heat for over a month now, but as I told Jayne I have very little experience with aviaries and keeping outdoor birds and you guys will tell her what is the correct thing to do.

All the best,

Ron


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

jazaroo said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Jayne did email me this morning as well with this update and had a few questions that I thought best to have answered here, as I told her you guys would have the best advice for her.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what type of transition would be possible when it's 5 degrees outside. If that's as good as it gets, about the only thing you can do is wait for a sunny day and put her outside as soon as the sun is up good and just leave her. If she was outside before, she'll be just fine. It certainly won't do her any good to put her out during the day and then bring her back in at night to a warm house. It's either this way, or wait till warmer weather has arrived and then put her out. A baby.......I would suggest some other way, like "don't put it out till the weather is better", but I believe an adult bird will do just fine. People ship birds from a hot climate to a cold climate all the time. The birds handle it just fine. As long as she's healthy now, I wouldn't worry about it to much. JMO


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## beausmammy (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi all,
I think I have spoken too soon...I think she is starting her heavy breathing again!!!...........she has been off the doxy for 5 days....what do you think? could the infection be coming back?
thanks Jayne


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

As long as her immune system is up to par, you could get her acclimated to outdoors. The fresh air might do her some good too.


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