# Broken wing--need permit advice



## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

I found a male pigeon with a broken wing today, and brought him to the vetmed school here (I go to the university of Illinois). The break is in the joint of the wing, so the vet I spoke to said that it will heal stiff, and he won't be releasable. Because of that, he'll probably be euthanized tomorrow unless I can come up with a home for him. However, it is illegal in my state to have wildlife without a permit. Does anyone know how I can get a permit to keep a pigeon? The vet already knows he's not a domestic, and I have no cash on me anyways to pay for treatment(they only treat wildlife for free)

I have a crate I can keep him in until he's healed up, and until I have money to buy a proper cage. If I end up being able to take him, I'll probably be coming back for more help on how to tame him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi j,



You do not need any sort of 'permit' for keeping a Pigeon.

Pigeons are not considered 'Wild Life', and they are not a protected species.


No place I ever heard of forbids one to have a Pet Pigeon, or even several of them.


Good luck..!

Make sure he may have such excercise as he likes after about 12 days or so, 14 tops, and keep an open mind after that, he may over weeks to come be able to fly somewhat, or even to fly quite well. One never knows...

Encourage excercise ( gently, no tossing or anything, but hold him low over a bed or a soft covered floor ) and raise and lower him as he stands on your hands palms, so he may flap his Wings a little off and on once all has set and mended well.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I agree .. there is no reason you cannot legally keep a pigeon as a pet. Feral pigeons are not protected under state and federal law anywhere with the possible exception of Washington State. Please do try to get this pigeon treated and take it home. If you cannot keep it for the long term, we will find a home for it here on Pigeon-Talk. If people at the center need to talk to someone, they can call me at 949-584-6696.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Also be aware that you can call Chicago Bird Collision Monitors and get referred to a wildlife rehab group that is pigeon friendly.

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Welcome to pigeon talk and thanks for taking this bird in.
Pigeons aren't native to this country, so all pigeons here are descended from domestic pigeons so, technically you do not need a wildlife permit. 
It's pretty late here so not many people are on, but don't let the vet put him down without getting advice from the forum. Many people have once-ferals as pets now and got them the same way, by rescuing an injured bird. We may have someone in your general area that could help you with the bird. 
Please don't do anything, though, until you get some advice from others on this board. If you have the bird still just make sure it's comfortable and has some water and some bird seed. There's lots of threads on this forum to help you make your guest more comfortable.


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ok, I called the DNR, and they told me that I did need a permit, since the pigeon is feral. However, the lady I talked to said I could get one at Walmart, in the hunting section. So, just to be safe, I'm going to go get one. The vet who is caring for the bird is supposed to call me today with an update, and hopefully she'll release him to me once I have the permit.

So, assuming that I end up with him, is a dog crate an okay place to keep him temporarily? Also, what's the best food for pigeons to eat?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi there,

Did you explicitly tell the vet that you wanted to take the bird home? I'm concerned that the pigeon will be euthanized because it won't be releasable.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jdogvolunteer87 said:


> .......
> 
> So, assuming that I end up with him, is a dog crate an okay place to keep him temporarily? Also, what's the best food for pigeons to eat?


A dog crate is fine for the bird be it the airporter type or the collapsible
cage type. For now you can pick up a bag of Kaytee Wildbird Seed that
lists Doves on the back.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you click on this link, it will give you more information on the group that
Terry was telling you about:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=196575&postcount=28

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

I have the bird back from the wildlife clinic. His wing is wrapped to stabilize the joint, but the vet I spoke to said I'll need to take him to an exotics vet, and potentially get the bones pinned in place. Is this necessary? I'm a poor college kid. Also, the only seed I could find was a canary mixture, and I picked it because it had the smallest seeds. Will that be okay for now?

He's a very "tough" bird. He postures aggressively when he sees me, and made a kind of "growling" noise when I transferred him to the cage. I just checked his weight, and his keelbone seems rather prominent.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's possibly lot we can do low budget. We're going to have to get into some specifics on what's actually wrong though. I'm going to go fetch a link or two and we can proceed from there.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, can you go here and look at these drawings:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

...and tell which bone is actually broke, whether it's the humerus, the ulna and/or the radius.

Pidgey


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

They have a dove mix if you have a Petsmart close by.


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Because it's wrapped, I can't palpate at all, plus he growls at me the whole time I try to grab him. Judging my the vet's description, I think its the carpometacarpus that is fractured. But there might be more, and I can't tell without x-rays.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that would be a very good thing if it were as it would normally mean that the prospects for future flight would be very good. What kind of wrapping are we talking about--a "Figure-of-Eight" around the entire portion of the wing like is usually shown in the standard wing-wrap pictures?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That growling, by the way, usually means that it's a female if it's a kind of a guttural grunt. At least it does to me--the bulk of the ones that I get that do that ultimately turn out to be females. There's one that I've got with the worst "Potty Beak" ever who really surprised me by turning out female. Sailors (seagulls) blush around that one when she gets going.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jdogvolunteer87, did you try to call the folks there in Chicago that I gave you
the link for? I think they will help this bird, they are very pigeon friendly. On a wing injury, if you can have a professional treat it, the bird stands to have
the best chance at a good quality of life. We are coming up on a holiday weekend and it really would be best to give them a call w/all due respect to
the help that you will get here, it's not the same as a vet's care. 

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Huh. I thought the large neck and irridescent feathers meant that it was a male, but I'm obviously not an expert. And yeah, it is a very low, gutteral grunt. 

I think the wrap is the classic figure 8, The best way I can describe it is by comparing to a human. here, the bandage is wrapping what would be the hand and the forearm against each other, if you get what I mean. The humerus is not involved at all. 

Should I just let the bird eat and drink on its own? I've supplied food and water, and its reasonable energetic.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

For now, let it eat and drink on its' own. If you see that it is not self watering
and feeding then we can help you out w/a feeding method.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, needs time, now. It's best to keep them such that they can't wander around at all during this portion of the healing process. You don't want to give him enough room to do much more than stretch a little, for that matter. Some birds are very well behaved and don't bother; some want to go back home so bad that they'll bail off of the side of a table only to crash real hard on the hurt side because that wing won't extend. And they can even do it more than once as though they just can't learn.

So, it's better just to close off their options by giving them just enough space to perch, poop, eat & drink, not necessarily in that order. They like a brick or something low to perch on if nothing else, something that they can call their own.

They'll usually manage to poop in their water anyhow, though.

Just out of curiosity, was there any blood or swelling before the dressing was put on?

Pidgey


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

It was swollen, but there was no blood or wounds that were visible


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Did they prescribe medication or mention this to you?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... hmm... I guess the thing that would tend to spook me a little bit is how the swelling does with the dressing. If it's too tight then it could be a problem, restricting bloodflow to the extremity. It's one of those things that you might do well to check a little later to make sure that's not the case. What did they wrap it with--that disposable ACE bandage kind of wrapping?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'd kind of like to see you exhaust some of the referrals on the list 
for professional care for the bird. It doesn't hurt to call, and one call sometimes
leads to information not on the list that is local. This happened today for a member in Colorado who had found a baby sparrow out of the nest. 
The pigeon will get the best shot at quality of life w/professional medical
care to address the broken bone not to mention that broken bones are painful.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There is one person who I can think of that might be able to help you--he's a member who only works a few miles south of Wilmette (~10 miles). I can email him and see if he'd pick up the bird or otherwise get into contact with you.

Pidgey


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

I need to update my profile; I no longer live in Wilmette. I'm at college in Champaign, IL currently. I am going to take him to the avian vet in the area tomorrow, and see if they'll treat him for cheap or free. If not, maybe they'll let me work to pay for the treatment. 

No medication was suggested, and the wrap is the special vet kind that sticks to itself and not the patient.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've stayed there before. Pain medication isn't always good with broken bones because they sometimes hurt themselves more. If it's not an "open fracture", then there's far less worry for infection, too.

How swollen did it get? A little or huge?

Pidgey


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

The swelling seemed to be fairly minimal yesterday when I saw it. I just now checked the bandage and it seems reasonably loose. I am worried about the stress that my handling of it is causing.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not as bad as you'd feel if something went desperately awry and discovered it too late. It's probably time to let him just perch and heal. You can try to find other resources but it's one of those deals where you're going into a holiday weekend. Good luck. If anything else comes to you, just bring it up here. A lot of us just can't stay away from "this place".

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jdogvolunteer87 said:


> The swelling seemed to be fairly minimal yesterday when I saw it. I just now checked the bandage and it seems reasonably loose. I am worried about the stress that my handling of it is causing.


Well, you can assume that it's in pain because the bone is broken, and it isn't
used to being handled so it's gonna naturally cause the bird stress. It may
also get the wrap loose enough for the bird to get out of it as well. Maybe
wait until the morning and see if this avian vet will help your rescue out
as I don't think there's too much to be gained at this point. You know what
the other vet's opinion on the wing is.

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Pijjie update time.

I just got back from the avian vet, and we decided not to surgically fix the break, as the vet felt it wouldn't make much of a difference. (Plus, I don't have 500 dollars) It was both the radius and ulna that were broken. The bird weighed 292 grams. It turned out there was a laceration near the break, so I have antibiotics to give the bird 2x a day now. I also have a tube to force feed him with if he won't eat. I am nervous about tube-feeding him, and being able to get the medication into his crop. I've never done that before. 

Next week, I'm getting him tested for chlamydia and psitticosis. If it is a male, I'm going to name him Sly Stallone, because he acts so tough and aggressive. If its a girl, I dunno yet.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm glad that an avian vet saw this bird and that you'll be treating w/antibiotics
for the laceration. Here's a link to the Resource Section that has a lot of good
information on the care of pigeons. Also there are links to Crop Medicating
and Tube Feeding:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Look over those specific links and if you have questions, post back w/your
concerns. It will be important while the pigeon isn't feeling well and being
medicated to make sure the bird is amply self-watering and self-feeding.
BTW, what medication did your vet give you?


fp


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm so glad you went to the vet and kept the bird.  There's a lot of great coaches here to help so you certainly won't be alone in caring for this one. 

Maybe call her "Sly-ly"  . 

After he gets to feeling better then perhaps it won't be aggressive. I tell you, I'd be grumpy and mean too if I had a broken arm  Did the vet show you a way to support and protect the wing while those bones knit (better yet, did he sling it up for you).


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

The wing is wrapped in a supported position, so that the broken bones are stabilized. The label on the bottle does not say what the drug is, but I remember that it was some sort of sulpha drug. 

I'm still not sure if the bird is eating, but he is throwing the seeds out of the cage.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Is the bird pooping?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, when the've got a smorgasbord in front of them, they tend to do that. It's less messy to give them just a little at a time so they won't be quite so picky. You might be spoiling the bird. We're pigeon people--we know these things.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

They are messy eaters and sometimes when a feral rescue is not used to the
caretaker, they may not eat in front of them. The crop is probably in part covered by the figure eight so not fully visible or accessible, but it you had
some scales and could weigh him this would tell you if he was losing weight
and needed some help. Cynthia has a good YouTube short on seed popping for
adult ferals needing some feeding assistance, I'll pull that link up for you.
If you can try and find out what the medication is as it will be relevant in terms
of what conditions it will resolve.

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

I definitely just caught him eating, so that's a huge relief. I went out and bought a wild bird mix, which included doves on the label. I also gave him some bread, in case he didn't like the seed. I am so glad I won't have to tube feed him. I will have to medicate him very soon, which promises to be lots of fun. There are a few smallish, solid poops in the cage.

I don't mind the mess, as long as he is eating. Seeds are easily picked up.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I tape bubble wrap around the corner w/the seeds which isn't really that
inventive, but you get the idea. I had one very messy eater who wasn't happy
until the whole days bowl was on the floor.

Did the doctor go over how to give the bird the medication w/you?

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Yeah. He gave me a small syringe and said to stick it down into the crop, and then squirt the meds in. I'm just nervous about rupturing the esophagus, or getting it in the lungs. I've never done this before. Plus, this bird really does not like me. He even tried to peck me when I put seed in the cage, and wing slapped me a few times.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

OK, here's Cynthia's (Cyro51) YouTube video on hand feeding a pigeon/dove:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

It's basically the same technique for giving them pills as well.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I would strongly recommend putting this bird in what my vet calls a "Bird Burrito", then proceed w/the crop medicating. Did you look at the Sticky
in the resource section on crop medicating?

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Just read them all now, and I'm psyching myself up to try. I will definitely use the bird burrito technique, as I have to do this by myself. The medication is in the liquid form, and I'm to give .3 ccs 2x a day.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I tip the beak up pointing towards the ceiling or least ways as much as I can
without it being stressful/hurtful for the bird.
You should be able to feel/see the syringe in the front or on their right side
dependant on the angle that you have inserted it. This was shown to me
in the vets office by the vet who first taught me how to crop medicate.

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Okay, the bird wins round one. I wrapped him up in a towel, and restrained his head, but every time I put the syringe in his throat he struggled so much I was afraid that the syringe would hurt him. Would it be okay to just squirt the meds into his mouth and let him swallow?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How much volume do you have to give him? What kind of syringe?

Pidgey


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Its a 1 cc hard plastic syringe, and I have to give him .3 cc


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I hold the beak between my left forefinger and thumb and once my right finger
pushes up the upper beak to an open position, I use my left hand to hold it open. Next try going slow, you know like how the dentist inserts the novacaine
needle so it won't hurt as much. 
It's not that this hurts the pigeon as much as it is that is probably scaring the
bird.
You can also "twirl" slightly the syringe as it enters the throat/esophagus.

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Meds are in, and I hope he didn't aspirate any. I know he's eating, but his crop still seems pretty empty. Is that okay?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Most folks have a very hard time finding the crop to check it out anyhow. He's not having any problems eating so I wouldn't worry much. Give him a few days and he'll think the broken wing was a gift from above.

You don't have to worry so much about them aspirating antibiotics--they don't rot like food does.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's great you were able to syringe into the crop. Well, it doesn't want to be taught w/food, and the bird has been through alot. You could do some seed 
pops tonight just lightly and tomorrow when you crop medicate check to see 
how the crop is doing content wise. Sometimes on the sick ones I toss a few 
in there till they get up to speed. If their really sick, I just tube formula.

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

Aaaaaand I get a new complication. His wing wrap fell off tonight. I wrapped it back up with some gauze I had, but it doesn't look nearly as tidy as what the vets did. Do I need to go back to the vet?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jdogvolunteer87 said:


> Aaaaaand I get a new complication. His wing wrap fell off tonight. I wrapped it back up with some gauze I had, but it doesn't look nearly as tidy as what the vets did. Do I need to go back to the vet?


Yeah, this is a concern regarding checking when wrapped. This is your call,
if you feel that you can get the alignment correctly then here is a tutorial
for you:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/brokenwing.html

You need to make sure the bird's breathing isn't restricted, you should be able
to get a finger in the front after wrapping. 

fp


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## jdogvolunteer87 (Aug 21, 2003)

I read the tutorial, but my attempt was a miserable failure. Even though I made sure his feet weren't wrapped, he kept squeezing them in the wrapping, then freaking out because he couldn't move. So, off the the vet it is tomorrow.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

They get their feet up there when you put the wrap on and then,
poof they are out. Probably best to have the vet wrap it again 
for now so it's in the right position and on securely. In the beginning
it sometimes takes two folks to get the job done because of the 
novelty of it and the bird's fidgeting.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...be working under a strong Light, so you can see well inside his Throat...


Useing the 'Burrito' wrap, and having him straight up so his Tail and the extra cloth is held between your thighs, behind your knees...


Make sure you can distinguish his Tracheal opening, through which he Breathes, and see how this is located forward of his Throat proper, so that you will in no way get the tip or any liquid into it.

If the Syringe tip may be inserted into his Throat proper, you may dispence the Medication with a sensibly 'slow' discharge of it, so it runs down his Throat and does not fill up his Throat to overwhelm his Tracheal opening.

See if you can 'pull' his Head rather 'up' so his Neck is approximately straight when doing this.


I myself use the little and ring fingers of my left hand, to lift their Head 'up' and extend their Neck, and then with my left index finger and thumb, I reach around front to stead the upper Beak, and with my right hand fingers I then open the Beak and then stick my left thumb tip into it, in such a way as to keep it open, whild still letting me see well what I am doing, since for me the Light tends to be on my right.


This is easy to do once one has some practice, but it hard to explain 'how' one does it.


So, watch what you are doing, as you are doing it, under a stong light-source, such as a Lamp on a Desk or Table you may sit next to, to do this.


Ideally, a short, very soft rubbery 'tube' would be used on te end of the Syringe...lubricated first with Olive Oil or KY, to be slid or twirled down his Throat, and into the mid area of his Crop, to aleviate any possibility of the liquid over-flowing into his Trachea.

Possibly a regular old time 'Eye Dropper' would be safer and easier than trying to use the rather 'sharp' sided blunt end of a conventional Syringe.



If he is upset with being handled, he will be breathing faster and harder, thus making the Tracheal opening open longer, and being more 'open' and vulnerable.


I have no idea why any responsible or intelligent Vet would not give you simple Tablets of Medication which can easily be put into their Throat for them to swallow, or Medication which may be added to their Drinking Water simply, when for a novice, useing a Syringe like this can endanger the Life of the Bird far more than the possible illness would have, for which the treatment is ostensibly being given.

Very few Broken Bones ever need any medications, and those which may, or for prudence sake shall, can have standard recourse Medications which are easy for anyone to give in Tablet form or in fractions of Tablets.


Good luck..!


Do a few 'dry runs' of just looking and inserting an empty utensile briefly...so you feel good about having the tip there well into the Throat, for a count of 'six' or something...and try not to have any thing pressing on his Crop in doing so.


Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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