# Another's bird coming into your loft. Is it now yours?



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Another thread got me to thinking about the legalities and moralities of "your" bird coming into "my" loft.

Is it legally mine now?

Is it only a moral obligation to try and return it to you, and not binding in any other way?

Of course it is proper etiquette and respect to attempt to return it to you. But if I decide to keep it, and even breed from it because I know your reputation or you have a specialty band that lets me know it is from a well respected loft (such as a band with "Magic" or something similar on it. Would it be legally wrong to breed or keep it? Would it be against any national organizations rules and by laws?

Would it matter legally, if the bird had a specialty band on it, that gave your loft info or your phone number?

Would it be any different with un-banded birds? Would it apply differently to the fancy breeds?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

In reference to racing pigeons , which is a sport. Good sportsmanship is to notify the owner. I personally will always notify the owner. Except 1 time that I happened to be traveling 80 miles right past the town of the club so I released him there after checking that he was good to go. I always crate the bird as soon as it enters or hopefully climbing on the aviary trying to go in. I belong to a club were the rules state that if you are caught with a bird that isn"t your bird in your loft you are out. No in my opinion the pigeon is NOT your pigeon until the owner gives it to you.
Kurps


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I am sorry but I must say I am a little disappointed in you Conditionfreak . By that logic then if your dog or cat came into my yard it would be mine .if a child's ball came into your yard you could claim that also. And .......
Kurps


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

IMO - keeping a banded bird without trying to notify the owner is stealing, especially if you know who the original owner is. One of the many reasons we put bands on our birds is to give them an identity that we can use for this very reason. 

Unbanded birds create their own set of problems, but again, if you know the owner, an ethical enthusiast would/should try to get the bird back.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I return or release closer to home every bird that enters my loft. I have done so with 5 birds already this season and we are only three weeks in. The odd thing is I have had people call me that have found my birds but not once have I ever had another flyer call me to tell me my bird trapped in with theirs.   

I guess that the only way they can get the good ones is keep someone else's birds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

M Kurps said:


> I am sorry but I must say I am a little disappointed in you Conditionfreak . By that logic then if your dog or cat came into my yard it would be mine .if a child's ball came into your yard you could claim that also. And .......
> Kurps


You misunderstand my posting. I am asking about legality. Not ethics, sportsmanship or etiquette.

I ALWAYS return a bird to its owner, if I can possibly do so. My statement you are referring to, is about legality. Because I am a retired cop. I am interested in the question/s from that perspective.

I would never keep someone's bird if I could ascertain who the owner is. I would not even breed from a bird that I had to keep for a long time, before I could get it back to the rightful owner. That would be unethical.

I have probably given away more good racing pigeons thru this web site, than any other person here.

I am disappointed in you, that you would be disappointed in me, for approaching it from the legal aspect. When you release a pigeon, you are releasing it from your care and ownership, IMO. Even though you expect (hope) it to come home. Just like if you released a cat in a park.

I would love to see what happens when a birds original owner, calls the police and tells them that his bird went into another persons loft, miles away. And ask the police to go get it back by force of law. I would also like to see the results of this type of situation, in a civil cuit.

It would be interesting. Imagine telling a judge or jury, that you sent your pigeon 300 miles away and turned it loose. Now someone has taken illegal possession of it, because it went into their loft on its own choosing.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

We have all been amazed with the price some people are willing to pay for top quality birds ( hundreds, to thousands, to hundreds of thousands ). At those prices, I would have no problem asking the police to retrieve a bird if I knew it was being kept in another man's loft and that man knew he had it. At those prices, isn't that grand larceny? 

Even if the bird was only ten dollars, I would ask to get it back if I knew someone was knowingly keeping someone else's bird. Just because I knowingly release it hundreds of miles away, does not mean I intended for it to become some one else's bird. My intention is that it will make it home. 

MY opinion only. Not sure about the legalitys,


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

The people here, giving their personal stories or thoughts on what they would do under similar situations. Just don't understand what "legal" means.

This isn't about what you have done or what you would do. That is inconsequential.

This thread is about the legality or illegality of keeping a pigeon that comes into your loft, on its own accord and choosing.

No where in my initial posting, did I state what I would do or have done. I simply asked about the legalities of keeping such a bird. It is not a matter of what you personally think is correct. It is about law/s.

So, I will restate my question. Does anyone know what the law says about such a thing? Are there any attorneys here, that have an opinion. I, as a former police officer, have an opinion. But I am not an attorney. But am interested in this scenario in the legal sense. Not in the moral or ethical sense.

Forget what you think is right in your own creed or opinion.. What actually is right, under the laws of our land?

Grand Larceny or Petty Theft, is theft. And is a crime. My bird going into your loft is not theft. It is the free choice of the bird. Nature, if you will. It isn't even an accident.

My opinion is that there are laws specifically addressed to certain species of animal life. Such as dogs, cats, horses and cattle. Those are stated as being "property". But none that I am aware of in regard to birds. Thus, as distasteful as it may be to all of us. Legally there is no requirement to return a bird back to its former owner. But as I said. I am not a judge or attorney. I know how I would vote if I was on a jury though.

In places like New York. Aren't there pigeon sports whereupon flyers try to entice other peoples birds into their lofts, and they are kept as spoils of the sport?

I was a Cleveland, Ohio cop. A supervisor of police. I was the guy who decided on what to do in unusual situations when patrol cars asked me for guidance in un-routine matters. I would never have given a patrolman permission to use the force of law to retrieve a wayward pigeon. But I would have later consulted with the Prosecutors Office for their opinion, and used their opinion days later, in a judgment call. Although I would not have had a problem with talking and negotiating with someone who had another's bird. Trying to talk them into doing the "right thing".


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Conditionfreak, your post in another thread appears you were going in another direction to me. Comparing a cat homing from the park to homing pigeon is comparing apples to oranges. But anyway , the legality issue is simple. You see once I had a group of whatever you want to call them , chase a yb that had strayed from my loft to up the block. Well these kids Pursued this bird for days on quads and dirt bikes missing mufflers and shooting bottle rockets at it until I heard no more. I emailed the place where I purchased the bands and told them what happened and I wanted my name off the ownership of that #. I did not want to be responsible for that bird flying through the neighborhood causing trouble . They replied with the list of band #"s I bought and stated I am the owner. So I cannot changed the ownership listed for that band , therefore I legally am the owner of that bird unless I keep records of a sale or give away to change ownership. The IF or the AU won"t change the ownership of the bands, it"s up to the owner.
Kurps


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Also, as a cop, I would hope you would understand that anything that has an established value, can not legally be kept from it's owner, whether stolen, found, or however. Top show dogs, cats, horses, top performing hunting dogs, race horses, etc, can not be legally kept from their owners. Why would pigeons not be considered in the same light?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

(k) Killing homing pigeons.--A person commits a summary offense if he shoots, maims or kills any antwerp or homing pigeon, either while on flight or at rest, or detains or entraps any such pigeon which carries the name of its owner.
This is the whole state of Pa law. It does not state that the owner has to live within a 10 mile radius.
Kurps


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I did extensive google searches in an attempt to find any court rulings about the legality of keeping another's wayward pigeon.

I found none.

If you know of one. Please inform me.

Theft is one thing. The free choice of a pigeon is another. IMHO.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

almondman said:


> Also, as a cop, I would hope you would understand that anything that has an established value, can not legally be kept from it's owner, whether stolen, found, or however. Top show dogs, cats, horses, top performing hunting dogs, race horses, etc, can not be legally kept from their owners. Why would pigeons not be considered in the same light?


Because those animals you referenced, are specifically stated in their own separate laws.

There are none that I can find, that specifically address pigeons. Just like if your pet tortoise crawls into my yard. It is mine if I so desire. Of course, I personally would not do such a thing as keeping your tortoise or pigeon. But legally, I think I would be within my rights to do just that.

Even if the tortoise or pigeon is worth ten thousand dollars on the open market. That is why you keep them penned up and you don't race them out in the wild.

I once had a pet whitetail deer that I let roam the wilds. I had raised it from a day old baby, on a bottle. It came to my back door and knocked for its feeding, twice a day, as an eight month old. 

My neighbor shot it.

I had no case. It was deer hunting season and "my button buck" was on my neighbors property when he shot it. "Kobe" was priceless. But the law is the law, and the lack of a law counts as much as a law does.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I would think something like this would not happen. Where an owner had to revert to the law to get there bird back. I have had over the years several birds come to my loft AND trap. I contacted the owner. And each time was either told I could keep the bird or release it. And then most stayed. And i would call the owner agin. They would say looks like you now own the bird. I would think If the person new a person had there bird Then the law would be on there side in getting it back. But then the person that has the bird could charge for its care before returning it. Just as some do for horses and cattle. As this does happen


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I would hope that something like this would never happen.

But I am sure it has and will. Humans are fickle.

Many times other flyers have kept my electronic bands, and let my birds come home. That is no different that keeping my bird.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

So, is anyone familiar with how the pigeon sport works, whereupon you actually try to entice another persons bird to join your flock and trap into your loft?

Is that sport still alive and kicking?

If so, is the bird/s kept or is there a certain price paid to get it back from the "trapper"?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> So, is anyone familiar with how the pigeon sport works, whereupon you actually try to entice another persons bird to join your flock and trap into your loft?
> 
> Is that sport still alive and kicking?
> 
> If so, is the bird/s kept or is there a certain price paid to get it back from the "trapper"?


I recall that going on many many years ago in the city (NYC for me). They used tipplers , before NY flights. They caught each other's , like thief against thief so to speak. They would sell them to the pigeon stores for feed or whatever. Pigeon stores, boy that is a thing of the past. I loved those stores.
Kurps


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> So, is anyone familiar with how the pigeon sport works, whereupon you actually try to entice another persons bird to join your flock and trap into your loft?
> 
> Is that sport still alive and kicking?
> 
> If so, is the bird/s kept or is there a certain price paid to get it back from the "trapper"?


I've heard plenty of stories from the guys in the club who used to do that when they were younger back then there was a lot more ppl with pigeons in NYC I hear there was at least one coop on the roof on every block in the city. And they made a sport out of catching other ppl's birds some would sell them back to the owner some to the pet shops to buy feed. As for your original question I think the cops would laugh at you around here if you called up telling them somebody else had your pigeon I had my neighbor shooting at my birds and the cop told my dad what do you want us to do about it they are only pigeons. But as for in the club and combine if you get caught with another guys birds they can throw you out.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

M Kurps said:


> I recall that going on many many years ago in the city (NYC for me). They used tipplers , before NY flights. They caught each other's , like thief against thief so to speak. They would sell them to the pigeon stores for feed or whatever. Pigeon stores, boy that is a thing of the past. I loved those stores.
> Kurps


We still have a couple pigeon stores out here on Long Island.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Legally, I would assume any bird trapped at free will into a loft have no claim to be reclaimed by an individual. It is the responsibility of it's owner to keep your property in your property. Once it leaves at free will, your ownership is gone. The proof of ownership is the burdon of the "owner", so how do you prove in a court of law that the bird wasn't sold, gifted, exchanged, or pass of ownership to another person? 

Dogs, cats, cattle and other animals are licensed/tagged in most parts of the country and ownership laws are more clear.


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

Talking to an attorney holds no claim to the answer. It would be nothing more than one more opinion. Someone has your bird and you hire an attorney to get it back. Well the guy with your bird hires an attorney to defend himself. Who wins? The guy with the best attorney.
I would guess that every governing body has their own take on this matter and it would come down to researching all the specific laws in one's local area, if any, to see where they stand. All that said, if you have a problem, it still comes down to the guy with the best attorney.
It sounds like we all agree on what is morally right so that is the answer I would go with.
PS. However, I don't agree that when we turn a bird loose to fly home that we are relinquishing our ownership. We are simply subjecting them to chance.


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

i'd say this falls firmly into the golden rule and "what goes around comes around" bucket. Where that could change is with a highly valuable bird that has documentation to support the value and the ownership, plenty of legal statute to support that.


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## markp1969 (Nov 23, 2010)

In New York State:

NY. ENV. LAW § 11-0513 : NY Code - Section 11-0513: Pigeons 

1. No person shall at any time, by any means or in any manner capture, kill or attempt to capture or kill any Antwerp or homing pigeon, wearing a ring or seamless leg band with its registered number stamped thereon; nor shall any person remove such mark. No person except the lawful owner shall detain, possess, or transport Antwerp or homing pigeons wearing a ring or seamless leg band with the registered number thereon.


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

not to hijack the thread, but would that law trump local laws or is it the other way around?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

markp1969 said:


> In New York State:
> 
> NY. ENV. LAW § 11-0513 : NY Code - Section 11-0513: Pigeons
> 
> 1. No person shall at any time, by any means or in any manner capture, kill or attempt to capture or kill any Antwerp or homing pigeon, wearing a ring or seamless leg band with its registered number stamped thereon; nor shall any person remove such mark. No person except the lawful owner shall detain, possess, or transport Antwerp or homing pigeons wearing a ring or seamless leg band with the registered number thereon.


I interpret this statute that a "driver" or "transporter", or even the USPS, can not legally transport a banded homing pigeon.

Technical for sure. But laws are supposed to be interrupted technically.

Am I wrong?


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## markp1969 (Nov 23, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> I interrupt this statute that a "driver" or "transporter", or even the USPS, can not legally transport a banded homing pigeon.
> 
> Technical for sure. But laws are supposed to be interrupted technically.
> 
> Am I wrong?


I was thinking the same thing





aarongreen123 said:


> not to hijack the thread, but would that law trump local laws or is it the other way around?


The second part to the code is

2. Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, the local legislative body of any city, town or village, or in the city of New York the Department of Health may take or issue a permit to any person to take pigeons at any time and in any humane manner in such municipality, whenever such body or administration finds that pigeons within such municipality are or may become a menace to public health or a public nuisance; provided, however, that no pigeon may be taken in a manner which will endanger other animal life, persons or property.


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## MH Flyer (Nov 7, 2012)

*catching pigeons*



M Kurps said:


> I recall that going on many many years ago in the city (NYC for me). They used tipplers , before NY flights. They caught each other's , like thief against thief so to speak. They would sell them to the pigeon stores for feed or whatever. Pigeon stores, boy that is a thing of the past. I loved those stores.
> Kurps


Man those were good old days back 1966-1969 when we did catch and sell for cash. NYC BRONX.


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## doveman2 (Jul 22, 2012)

i remember climbing on water towers catching birds


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> The people here, giving their personal stories or thoughts on what they would do under similar situations. Just don't understand what "legal" means.
> 
> This isn't about what you have done or what you would do. That is inconsequential.
> 
> ...


Hi ConditionFreak;

As you referance laws do change from state to state, as for an unbanded bird wild or obvious homer there is no way to prove ownership. 

For example about a month ago I get a call to the north side of town and two guys are fighting over ownership of a dog. Lucky for us real owner (one of the guys) had micro chip in dog so we were able to establish ownership in short order. 

Short of putting a micro chip in your birds there is no way of establishing ownership in an unbanded bird, so finders keepers!

Now as for banded birds in California there are laws governing the theft of animals, Felony! and receiving stolen property, also Felony when it involves animals!

So as a peace officer I may not be able to prove someone actually entered another premises (burglary) and stole the animal but if your in possession well you can most deffenetly lose your freedom over a bird. 

Point is yes it is fair play and all of that to get a bird back to actual owner, but if owner can prove someone has possession of a banded bird and they refuse to give it back, well shame on that guy that is with holding anothers property and yes they can and will go to jail. 

For instance and I have written about this in the past a vet service about 50mi from my home called saying they had one of my banded race birds. before I could get up there to pick up the bird an animal rights activast who was working for vet took the bird and refused to give it back. When she was finaly tracked down she claimed the bird died and buried but refused to give location and was never able to prove it in court. So long story short she lost her job and was ultimately black balled from being able to work for any reputable vet service. she also was put on probation for 4 years and had to pay for bird. 

So if you get someone elses bird into your loft, make every attempt to get it back where it belongs (document your attempts). I myself have had a bird go into a junior fliers loft early on in training, got it back twice and she kept going back to kids house. so we made an agreement to have him fly her in youngbirds (he did quite well) and later I gave him a bird to mate with her and we split babies. I made a good friend in the process!


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

lawman said:


> Hi ConditionFreak;
> 
> As you referance laws do change from state to state, as for an unbanded bird wild or obvious homer there is no way to prove ownership.
> 
> ...


I have 1 thing to add ; AMEN !!!
Kurps


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

lawman said:


> Hi ConditionFreak;
> 
> As you referance laws do change from state to state, as for an unbanded bird wild or obvious homer there is no way to prove ownership.
> 
> ...


I do not know about California laws. But I do know the Ohio Revised Code, in and out.

There is no way in heck that someone could be pursued criminally or civilly, for possession of a pigeon (banded or otherwise), if said pigeon went into the loft of its own accord and choosing. Even if I found out who the bird USED TO belong to. Because you let your bird free. The bird can then do whatever it wants, and you are in effect, giving up ownership. You do not own a pigeon flying in the sky. Banded or not.

BECAUSE you willingly, and intentionally, set it free when you released it far from home. It is no different than setting your garbage out for pick-up. You are willingly and voluntarily relinquishing ownership. But with the hope that the pigeon comes home.

I can legally take your garbage. At least in Ohio. I have done it many times.


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

i believe lawman is absolutely correct


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Even if you had personal bands on the birds, there is no proof you didn't sell or transferred the property. How do you prove ownership in a court of law?


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Xueoo said:


> Even if you had personal bands on the birds, there is no proof you didn't sell or transferred the property. How do you prove ownership in a court of law?


thats what a bill of sale does for you, keeps owner honest if he tries to resind on deal and say he never sold you the bird. As for ownership records other than that your clubs band secretary should be keeping a list of who received what bands and listing it one that years paperwork for AU. 

And conditionfreak, 

one simple question, how do you prove it simply flew into your loft of its own volition (choice) and you did not get it some other nefarias (illegal) way? In short you cannot! Then if registered owner of band takes issue with you having the bird they can (in California) sign a private persons arrest form and the officer is legally bound to accept the arrest. bird gets confiscated, guy who had it goes to jail and potentially looses everything trying to prove he did not steal it, or knowlingly accept a stolen bird from someone who did. There is no bird out there that is worth me potentially loosing everything for it

its simply better to make every effort to return bird to proper owner, heck you may even make a good friend in the process.

Ganus did exactly this regarding one of his top grizzles, to include documenting everything he did to find proper owner. if you cannot locate owner, then you should be able to prove in short order what steps were taken to do so. then if you can show this I dont think anyone including the courts would challenge your ownership of a bird that "flew into" your loft.

just my thoughts on issue


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

lawman said:


> thats what a bill of sale does for you, keeps owner honest if he tries to resind on deal and say he never sold you the bird. As for ownership records other than that your clubs band secretary should be keeping a list of who received what bands and listing it one that years paperwork for AU.
> 
> And conditionfreak,
> 
> ...


You should already know that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff or the prosecution. I don't have to prove I didn't get it by nefarious or illegal means. You or someone, has to prove I did. And it does not fall under "receiving stolen property", as it was never stolen. It is an animal that made a choice of its own.

I would think that you knew that already, considering your screen name and implied occupation.

And it does not fall under "receiving stolen property", as it was never stolen. It is an animal that made a choice of its own. It was, in effect, discarded (let loose). Just like your garbage.

People borrow bands, and pigeon flyers rarely get bills of sale. Unless they are high priced birds. That bill of sale thing, has little to do with this debate anyway. Just because you banded it, does not mean it didn't change hands several times over, and after all. You did turn it loose (or gave else permission to turn it loose into the wild).


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I recently purchased special money race bands for two different races. The COC and the FFC here in Central Ohio. I gave all of them to a fellow flyer friend, because he can not afford to buy them. He is poor and he is a friend of mine. I did it for him from the get go.

Now, can I call the cops and get those birds, by force of law? No. Even though the bands were sold and issued to me.

I have exchanged many birds locally, without ever getting a bill of sale. As I am sure all of you have at one time or another. And even if I obtained a bill of sale each and every time. It would matter little, in the scenario we are discussing (bird voluntarily goes into another's loft).


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> You should already know that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff or the prosecution. I don't have to prove I didn't get it by nefarious or illegal means. You or someone, has to prove I did. And it does not fall under "receiving stolen property", as it was never stolen. It is an animal that made a choice of its own.
> 
> I would think that you knew that already, considering your screen name and implied occupation.
> 
> ...


Now we get into diferences in state laws:

as all i have to prove is you have possession of something that someone else claims was stolen. IE reported stolen car, your driving it and get stopped you go to jail.... you may not get prosecuted in the end but that is for district attorney, judge and jury to decide. all i have to do is catch you in the car, you go to jail and potentioally thousands of dollars spent. 

Same thing with grand theft animal, you get caught with animal and cannot prove you legitimately bought it... well in the end same story. 

I grew up in the western states, a good portion of my family are still cattle men, you don't pick up any cattle or horses without a bill of sale. if you get caught with someone elses property in your herd you are expected to turn it over to proper owner, or at least make every effort to do so and make it public so everyone knows.... bad things happen when you get caught before the authorities are even called, if you get my drift (the equivelent of street justice). 

we both know this happens even in Ohio, I'm not condoning it, just pointing out the obvious. but again how do you prove it flew into your loft of its own accord..... 

again, it is just better to make every attempt to get the bird back to it rightfull owner. make it public so everyone knows, heck you may even find you get a few of your own birds back in return. if not, oh well, at least you made the effort to be the bigger man about it.


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

OK Conditionfreak, We have all read your beliefs here. In your mind, there are no laws that protect the "owners" of racing pigeons of theft of released birds. We have also heard arguments to the contrary. Let's for argument's sake, say that we all agree that you are right. Then what? What is your goal here? Is it that you want to correct the problem or just bring it the attention to all who frequent this forum? The world is full of honorable people, of which it sounds like you are one of them. Are you wanting someone to convince you of the contrary? Am I missing something here? ---Eleftharios


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Eleftharios said:


> OK Conditionfreak, We have all read your beliefs here. In your mind, there are no laws that protect the "owners" of racing pigeons of theft of released birds. We have also heard arguments to the contrary. Let's for argument's sake, say that we all agree that you are right. Then what? What is your goal here? Is it that you want to correct the problem or just bring it the attention to all who frequent this forum? The world is full of honorable people, of which it sounds like you are one of them. Are you wanting someone to convince you of the contrary? Am I missing something here? ---Eleftharios


This subject came up in another thread and I thought it was an interesting subject for a discussion. That is all.

I am not advocating for the keeping of another's pigeon/s.

I would not do such a thing myself, and I HAVE NOT. Even though I have had plenty of opportunities. In truth, I do not want the racing pigeons of someone else, that got lost. Why would I? I am trying to get racing pigeons that can find their way home every time, and do it quickly. That is what all pigeon racers strive for. I am just discussing the laws concerning such things, just for the sake of discussion. After all. How many threads can we have, about how "cute" your pigeon is. Or "Help!!! My pigeon doesn't like me. What should I do?"

I am simply wanting to have a respectful discussion of how the laws of the land do not address the occurrence of my bird going into your loft, and you just keeping it. I also am attempting to point out how many of us think that our personal feelings or moral ethics, are law. In many instances, they are not. I resent that some have implied that I am advocating for this sort of thing, or would do this myself. That is just totally incorrect. I have not, am not, and would not.

Since I spent the better part of my life, dealing with the law on a daily basis. This subject interests me, in its theories and applications. If it does not interest you. Then ignore this thread. It is like changing the TV channel, if you don't like the show.

Simply put. In my professional opinion as a former supervisor of police, and a former trainer and instructor of new officers. When it comes to the laws of the state of Ohio and many other states. These is no illegality involved in someone keeping a pigeon that VOLUNTARILLY (this word is key here), enters into a persons pigeon loft, barn, garage, shed, or whatever. There is no way that could be construed as theft, or receiving stolen property. For, the bird was not stolen in the first place.

When you intentionally and voluntarily take a pigeon far away and release it into the wild blue yonder. You in effect, are releasing it from your care, ownership, and custodial duties and rights.

We pigeon racers don't typically think of training and racing a homing pigeon, as abandoning our rights of ownership, custody and care. But under the law, we are in essence doing just that. We have an expectation and hope, that the pigeon will come back to our loft. But we are in the strictest interpretation of the law, setting the pigeon free. Which may be illegal in its own right (animal cruelty and abandonment). But I won't go there because I don't want to be called a monster.

I won't even get into the laws about transporting pigeons across state lines without certificates of health from veterinarians. Or about the need to obtain permission to cross state lines while transporting fowl and other wild life.

Heck, in Ohio. It is illegal to transport firewood from one county to another. Imagine the laws governing the transport of non-native species across state lines. Pigeons are not native to America. But, I digress. That is a possible discussion for another thread and time. Although I am now loath to have any discussions about "the law" versus "opinions". As I have been made out as some kind of bad person, for even bringing up this subject here for discussion.

Consider this thread an exercise in theory, and not an exercise in advocacy.

I will leave you with these thoughts. These are the words of others. Not of me.

Pigeons do not voluntarily participate in racing.

and

For the homing pigeons culling isn't necessary because you can fly them and those that aren't good enough will be lost. If a bird comes from the races late every time and it isn't in the prizes, you simply send it to a longer race and if it comes home, you send to a longer one and so on. Until it eventually does not come home. Which was really your goal. To no longer have to feed a "worthless" racing pigeon.

and

Many pigeon flyers do not want wayward or lost pigeons returned to them. Many state that if someone finds one of their lost racing pigeons. That specific pigeon is worthless for racing purposes, and thus. If and when they get it back. It will be culled from their flock/kit. So some caring people will not return a pigeon to its FORMER owner, for fear of the bird being harmed.

I could mention other internet postings about such things. But the rules of this web site, forbid me from even mentioning them.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

lawman said:


> Now we get into diferences in state laws:
> 
> as all i have to prove is you have possession of something that someone else claims was stolen. IE reported stolen car, your driving it and get stopped you go to jail.... you may not get prosecuted in the end but that is for district attorney, judge and jury to decide. all i have to do is catch you in the car, you go to jail and potentioally thousands of dollars spent.
> 
> ...


Has anyone ever reported a pigeon stolen? A pigeon that they took on a training toss and it didn't come back? No, never. So the auto example does not apply.

And as I have already stated. Certain animals have laws specifically addressed to and about them. Such as cattle, dogs, etc.

Again. One does not have to prove they didn't steal something. The prosecution has to prove they did. That is law and justice 101. Possession of a *lost and found pigeon*, is not a violation of law. Even in California. Correct me if I am wrong and show me the statute in writing. I would hope to God that as a police officer. You would not arrest someone for finding and caring for a pigeon. Banded or otherwise. No matter if they attempted to find the former owner, or they didn't make the attempt.

I could envision the title of the official police report. "Possession of a lost and found pigeon, without the finder seeking to reunite the pigeon with its owner/Arrest".


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

You repeating that you're right and we're all wrong isn't a discussion. I guarantee you that the law is no where near as black and white as you see it either. I also would argue that being in law enforcement doesn't even come close to making you and expert in "law" itself, the application, or interpretation of it either. I'm sure you'd agree that's why we have lawyers and judges. Don't take that the wrong way, I have a lot more respect for your occupation than those in most cases


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I do not know about California laws. But I do know the Ohio Revised Code, in and out.


This right here is why this discussion is frustrating. We are all from different areas and parts of the world. We all have different laws and statutes. There is no blanket code, no National law, nothing. It varies from state to state to community to community. Likely, even, from case to case. We simply can't say this is what would happen. Living in Ks, it kinda blows me away that there are specific laws on the books protecting pigeons.


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

I totally understand that a lot of what goes on here is much friendly verbal sparing of which I honor and enjoy. I also think that Conditionfreak has made many valid points. There is only one point that I fail to grasp and that is the relinquishing of ownership when one releases their bird for a race or a toss.
Does that same theory hold true with a person who is walking through a park with a non-wing clipped, un-tethered Macaw on his shoulder. A passing dog jumps up at it and it flushes to a low branch on a nearby tree. Would the first person who can get to it and catch it be the next rightful owner? After all, the original guy with it on his shoulder intentionally walked to the park with it knowing that his bird was un-tethered. Would it also be the same for a falconer who releases his bird into the wild blue yonder?
I ask Conditionfreak as to what are your thoughts about this hypothetical scenario. 
Scenario # 1 - A lost banded racer makes a choice to trap into your loft. In reality, if the exit door is closed, your loft is in essence a “trap”. It is baited with your resident flock and their food and water. If you do not open the exit door so that the lost bird has the freedom to make a free choice to leave. You have knowingly caught and detained it.
Scenario #2 I- It’s race day, you open your baskets and release your birds and standing around you are a handful of PETA members with nets, scooping up a few of your birds as they rise into the air. They then put them into crates and haul them off in the name of rescuing the poor pigeons from this “cruel sport”. I don’t know you however I would venture to guess that you would probably not stand there, stating to yourself “Oh well, I gave up my ownership when I let them go so I guess that they can have them. Those birds were knowing caught (trapped) and detained as in scenario #1.Is there a difference?
A few more thoughts to ponder?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Eleftharios said:


> I totally understand that a lot of what goes on here is much friendly verbal sparing of which I honor and enjoy. I also think that Conditionfreak has made many valid points. There is only one point that I fail to grasp and that is the relinquishing of ownership when one releases their bird for a race or a toss.
> Does that same theory hold true with a person who is walking through a park with a non-wing clipped, un-tethered Macaw on his shoulder. A passing dog jumps up at it and it flushes to a low branch on a nearby tree. Would the first person who can get to it and catch it be the next rightful owner? After all, the original guy with it on his shoulder intentionally walked to the park with it knowing that his bird was un-tethered. Would it also be the same for a falconer who releases his bird into the wild blue yonder?
> I ask Conditionfreak as to what are your thoughts about this hypothetical scenario.
> Scenario # 1 - A lost banded racer makes a choice to trap into your loft. In reality, if the exit door is closed, your loft is in essence a “trap”. It is baited with your resident flock and their food and water. If you do not open the exit door so that the lost bird has the freedom to make a free choice to leave. You have knowingly caught and detained it.
> ...


Ha Ha

#1. You open your trap the next day, and the next, and the next. Yet the bird stays there at your loft. Now it has made a choice another and more long lasting choice. 

Are you going to call the cops if we are neighbors and you see me "trap" your bird? Are you going to sue? Even though the bird chose to go into my loft trap? They can't accidently enter my trap.

#2. Are you going to release (free) pigeons, when you see people standing there holding nets and wearing t-shirts with "P.E.T.A.' on them? If your scenario happened. Would a local cop who also witnessed this, arrest those PETA members on the spot? Would said cop arrest you for cruelty to animals or abandonment?

I have released pigeons all over my area. Several times I have had citizens see this and get into their car. Track me down, and ask why I am turning pigeons loose near their farm land. When I gently explain what I am doing. They do not back down, and emphatically tell me to never do it near their farm again. They threaten to call the law on me. I could see that also happening in big city areas, such as supermarket parking lots and such. I could, under such circumstance. Be arrested by Barney Fife. But Sheriff Andy Taylor would apologize and release me immediately.

The laws are written rules and regulations, and sometimes based on "precedent" (an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances). Show me either for all U.S. areas, and I will apologize and buy everyone participating here ice cream.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2014)

conditionfreak said:


> I would love to see what happens when a birds original owner, calls the police and tells them that his bird went into another persons loft, miles away. And ask the police to go get it back by force of law. I would also like to see the results of this type of situation, in a civil cuit.
> 
> It would be interesting. Imagine telling a judge or jury, that you sent your pigeon 300 miles away and turned it loose. Now someone has taken illegal possession of it, because it went into their loft on its own choosing.


I know this is all hypothetical and all, but how would someone even know it trapped into another loft and exactly whose loft that was? Surely someone wouldn't blindly call the police and accuse someone at random.


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm still laughing! Maybe I shouldn't think about flying pigeons. It might be more fun to sit on my butt in front of my computer and hang out on these forums!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Eleftharios said:


> I'm still laughing! Maybe I shouldn't think about flying pigeons. It might be more fun to sit on my butt in front of my computer and hang out on these forums!


He says while sitting on his butt in front of his computer.

Ha Ha Ha Too funny.

Some people can actually chew gum and walk at the same time. Some can't. Ha Ha Ha


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> Has anyone ever reported a pigeon stolen? A pigeon that they took on a training toss and it didn't come back? No, never. So the auto example does not apply.
> 
> And as I have already stated. Certain animals have laws specifically addressed to and about them. Such as cattle, dogs, etc.
> 
> ...


Ok and how many stolen cars did you stop in your career that did not initially return as stolen.... IE your investigation later determined in some manner that the vehicle did not belong to the driver. subsequently while contacting the owner it was determined that the vehicle was missing without their knowledge and in fact they did not know who the driver was....end result driver goes to jail!

I dont know how long you have been out of the game, but I too have trained new officers and worked many specialty details. I have and continue to serve my community honorably!

In my opinion your not wanting discussion your trying to convince someone?
that engaging in keeping anothers property is ok.... I believe your wrong!

I believe this because it opens the doors to many other ways for one to obtain anothers birds without being punished. In California theft by any means is still theft, I would be surprised if this is any different in Ohio or any other state for that manner. 

You see it opens up the possibility that sending out your spanish theives as a flock goes over is somehow not theft as well, or any other means of obtaining anothers property (theft). I believe we all agree that it is an intentional act. 

Your premise of keeping a bird that wonders into the loft is the same concept if you do not take the extra steps to contact the owner and return the bird. theft by any means is still theft! 

as you cannot prove the bird simply wondered in on its own.... subsequent contact with owner would reveal that you were never given or sold the bird and your now in possesion of something that does not belong to you. 

That is why the AU has documents for the transferal of band(s) from one person to another. It keeps everyone honest especialy if you buy a bird or are given a bird that there is no record of or for. 

It is the same as a guy selling a car on the street corner, you pay him but he gives you no title or paperwork for car. The person who takes this vehicle is guilty of receiving stolen property if later he is stopped and pulled out at gun point because the vehicle is stolen. your premise is exactly the same only your talking livestock (birds to be exact). 

If you keep something that does not belong to you then you are guilty of theft, subject to being arrested and prosecuted for possesion of stolen property... end story... except that the final determination would be made by a judge and a jury. 

As I mentioned the guy who engages in this is going to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to try and clear their name, and even if they do clear their name in the criminal court system, what club is ever going to trust them again!

As for another post wher its mentioned, "how would you ever know",

One example that happened to a friend of mine was he had a champion birds 3 year old come up missing from a race, three years later a flier on the short end comes to him and wants to know what it was. You see the missing bird had bred several overall winner for the short end guy. while i dont know exact details i know several thousands of dollars were paid out to resolve the issue and the missing bird was returned home.

further we all go visit other lofts from time to time and you see your own missing bird or a friend visits a loft and returns wanting to know why you sold "that guy" someof your best stuff. in the end people talk and who wants to be the guy with "that reputation"?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

You still don't get it.

No one has to PROVE they did not steal something. You have to PROVE they did. How could you possibly honorably serve your community without this basic justice system knowledge?

Are you going to check pigeon lofts, without a complaint first? Because that is what you are implying with your stolen car analogy.

And again. No one is discussing the theft of a pigeon. That is a different set of circumstance, and clearly against the law. I am addressing a released banded pigeon voluntarily entering my loft. And my legal ability to keep it. Clubs and national organizations can issue all of the rules and guideline they want, concerning something like this. With penalties spelled out in detail. But clubs and national organizations are not "the law". They can not put me in jail. They can not take my bird. Even if it used to belong to someone else, until they set it free. If you, a police officer, forcibly took a pigeon out of my loft, even if it was at some point banded by another person. YOU would be in trouble for theft "under color of law", and if you arrested me. I would end up with some of your money and some of the money of your city. That would be an unlawful arrest and seizure.

Federal "illegal search and seizure" laws would apply. You better have a search warrant signed by a judge, if you enter my loft and remove any pigeon there. Or you would be looking for another profession.

I mean, seriously. As a police officer, you don't get that?

And to answer your query. I retired after 22 years as a Cleveland Police Officer. I was a patrolman, Sergeant, and Lieutenant. I taught search and seizure at Cleveland State University. I worked 10 years undercover narcotics and vice. I supervised over 65 patrol officers as a Lieutenant. I was honored upon my retirement by the U.S. Congress, for my service and honorable career. You can read that here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JJ...page&q=walter thomas cleveland police&f=false

I know what I am talking about. Not as much as a judge (although some of them are idiots), or even as much as an attorney (although many of them are idiots). But as a street cop, who supervised many other street cops. None of which ever got sued for an unlawful arrest. Nor convicted of dereliction of duty. In Cleveland, we did have an occasional pigeon incident. But it was always about someone shooting racing pigeons with a B-B gun, or breaking in and stealing pigeons from lofts. Not once, did we have someone call on us to report a pigeon stolen from a training toss or race, and not once did we have someone accuse another of having his "pigeon property" illegally in his loft, that had not been stolen directly out of a loft break-in.

And, there is no law in Ohio (and probably most other states and localities) that a person has a duty to attempt to locate the owner of a found banded pigeon.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. If your screen info had your age on it (as mine does). Then maybe I could ascertain how much law experience you have. But it doesn't.

I wish you well in your service.

Oh, and your anecdotal stories mean nothing when laws are applied to them. Reputation and club actions mean nothing to the justice system. I hope for your sake, that when you are serving your community. You don't patrol the community, and just do what you personally think is right and just, based on your own ethics and morality. That you just enforce the laws as they are written. The trust and power given to you by a community is a powerful thing. Use it according to the laws of the land. Not according to your own set of values and virtues.


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## aarongreen123 (Jan 26, 2005)

Somebody close this thread it's long past nutty


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Is there really a point to further discussion? There have been legitimate posts on both sides of this issue, but it now appears that some posters are just spinning the wheels without adding anything really beneficial. Can everyone just agree to disagree?


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