# Syringe Feeding without the Tube?



## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

I've been feeding my pigeon with a syringe that lacks a tube to lead down the crop. My feeding method has been to pry open his beak, stick the tip of the nozzles behind his toung, and squirt as much in I can before the bird makes it apparent that it wants to swallow or breath. He doesn't like me force-feeding him this way, but it's the only way I can get him to eat at this point. Am I doing it correctly? He has feathers by the way, but has a few pin feathers still growing in.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess this begs a lot of questions, the first of which (for me) is why is it that you're not using a tube? If you're using a regular syringe, you can use a piece of electrical heat-shrink tubing that you can get at Lowe's or Home Depot for very little money. If that's an option you'd like to explore, let me know and I'll give you more instruction about that.

However, a lot of folks use the more-natural, self-feeding method where you take a modified syringe, paper cup, baggie, etc. and let them feed themselves out of it by simulating a normal parent. Those methods are listed in various threads in here that I can link you to if you want.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's a link to such a method:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

When you say this is the only way that you can get him to eat at this point, do you mean that he's not interested in trying to peck or that he just hasn't figured it out yet, or what? Sometimes, they're sick with something and get anorectic (don't feel like eating). And sometimes, they just haven't gotten to know you yet (new rescue) and are waiting for their parents to swoop in and rescue them.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here is a link to the method using the electrical heat shrink tubing mentioned above:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=130698&postcount=11

And a link to a picture of the setup and product:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/548021569/2230231940073664377yNkprq

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

This looks like an excellent feeding method. I found a website showing the same technique, so I tried to simulate it by making a loose fist with my hand and putting some food at the center, just to see if this would interest him. I stuck his head in the "hole" in my hand but he wouldn't open his beak. I also tried a plastic ziplock baggie, cut a hole in the corner, and tried again to no avail. Of course, that was on the first day I found him so I'll happily try again today. The reason I'm not using a tube is, years back, I rehabillitated/raised a pair of robins using a syringe, but those birds would gap so all you had to do was squirt food into their hungry mouths. I didn't use a tube on this guy simply because I don't have one handy and I didn't know if it was necessary or not. I'd prefer him to feed himself via the second hand feeding method though because it looks more natural and less frightening for the bird (He backs away from the syringe). I'll follow the post's instruction and give it a try


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

*sigh* Nope. He's not going for it. I stick his resistant head into the tube and he doesn't seem to be eating. I saw some little bit of swallowing in the very beginning, but the rest of the time his mouth seemed to be closed and he was preocupied with getting free of my restrain over him. If I don't restrain him, he turns his head away.


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

oh wait...as a matter of fact, I think he IS eating it..it's just that more flows down the outside of his neck than into his mouth LOL. Still, when I pull it from his beak, he tries to get away. Does he mean he doesn't like the formula or does it mean he doesn't like the way I'm feeding him? Also, his brest bone (it's a virtacle bone) is very apparent. Is that normal or is he very thin?

Thanks
~


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That sounds like he's thin. When they get to know you well enough to figure out, for better or worse, that you're now their parents, they'll usually come yelling for food every time they see you. Getting them to eat under those circumstances is a lot easier. You need to get about 10 to 15% of their body weight down them, three times per day. If the method that you're using just isn't getting it done, then you'll have to try a different one or go a lot longer.

Emaciated birds (very prominent keels) are sometimes more difficult. You have to montior their output (poops) as carefully as their input because stuff can just stop going through (crop slowdown; crop stasis--very bad). In such a case, you often need specific medications very fast.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Prizm and welcome to the forum.

We use what is called a Catac Nipple because I am like the cowardly lion - too scared to try the tube method. 

However, we've been doing this for over 12 years and the catac nipple has worked fine. They are a little pricey but the same nipple can be used for about 2 weeks as long as it is sterilized after you finish feeding.

These nipples can be ordered from UPCO http://www.upco.com/cgi-bin/Upcol.storefront/44a2a0a301070dc2ea6dc0a80a2f06dc/Search/Run
and we use item no. 391. The nipples are appx 1 1/2 to 1/34 inches and slide back past the airhole nicely. For the squabs we use a 3 cc syringe (gives us better contol over the amount going in). You have to snip the end off the nipple and then super glue the nipple to the syringe because before we started using glue we squirted the formula down the baby's throat and the nipple went right with it. The baby was fine because the rehabber who trained us literally massaged it up into the throat and pulled it out.

My husband (bless his heart) does the majority of the baby feeding and I think because he has larger hands they struggle less with him than they do with me. They see me as a pushover. He is right handed but uses his left hand to hold the bird, then opens the beak pretty wide using fingers on both hands. After he has the beak open he keeps it open with his left hand and squirts the formula with the right hand. Some birds are just naturally more resistent but the majority of them get used to it and will practically take your hand off to get you to feed them.

 We have had about 20 babies in the last 3 months that we've fed this way.


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Oh wow then I guess he is certainly not getting enough food. I will respond to your generous posts asap, but could you quickly tell me if feeding with the syringe lacking a tube is dangerous? (It was unpleasant, but it has been working so far).


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I've never fed a pigeon with just the syringe. When we rehabbed songbirds we didn't use a nipple - just used a 1 cc syringe and fed them that way.

Maybe you could check some of the stores like Petsmart and see if they have a nipple kit. It does need to be flexible though. 

How old is he and what are you feeding him?


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## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

Something you could try depending on how old the bird is at the time would be to get a small cup like a very small measuring cup and put the formuls in there, put your fingers on the sides of the beak, so the beak is at the top of the space inbetween the first joints of your fingers from the hand and manipulate the cup and the bird so it can just suck the formula up on its own. I hope that makes sence. It has worked for me in the past but it is a little messy.


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

I'm not able to go out today to purchase equipment. He won't suck up the food on his own. When I point the nozzle down his throat, the food gets into his crop. Is there any reason why I shouldn't continue feeding this way over the next 5 hours? His crop feels pretty empty...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Prism,


The hollow side of a plain, regular, soft rubber, people-baby baby-bottle Nipple works very well and is easy and natural.

One only uses the Nipple, and nothing else, nothing more...

If you would like more info, let me know and I will send off site...just write to my e-mail 

[email protected]

Baby Pigeons and Doves are happy to be active agents in their own feeding...they love to eat...and the Nipple's HOLLOW back-side makes a perfect soft 'cup' for them to insert their beak into...

One merely fills, then refills the Nipple with formula/food for them to have their meal.

To be done well, it takes a little finesse...but it also allows whole small Seeds, fine Grit, and other ingredients to be used.


Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

that sounds great however I will not have a car available for quite a few hours--is there anything wrong with using the syringe besides the messyness?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Only if something bad happens. That's called "aspiration" and it means that they suck some formula down the airway. They can die very quickly, or they can die much more slowly of pneumonia. A lot of folks manage to feed them all the way out (of chickhood) in the basic manner that you're suggesting. Every now and then, one aspirates and dies. You just have to be real careful with every mouthful that you feed the youngster.

It's typically a lot less dangerous to feed them wetted bits of puppy chow in a circumstance like that if you have it.

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Actually, I DO have some puppy-chow. It's kind of ironic you should mention that because normally I wouldn't except my neighbor wanted to give me her dog . We didn't keep him but gave him to a no-kill shelter. Anyway I have this dog food that none of my other dog-owning neighbors wanted. It's just interesting how turns of events can have details that come into play later. 

I certainly don't want to get my pidge sick..Should I soak the dog food in the formula or something, or is it nutritionally complete by itself?


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Hi Prizm, 
Just wanted to whole-heartedly endorse Phil's suggestion of the baby-bottle nipple... once he told me about it, feeding baby became SO much easier and cleaner! However, since you can't get one instantly, I thought I'd show you what I HAD been doing before this advice came along. 
It took a bit of getting used to, but I had also tried a plastic bag without a corner (like a frosting bag) and a paper cone-cup, and he rejected both of those but took formula happily from my hand... here's a bad-quality video so you can see what worked for me. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJCJlv7Ct0Y 
Good luck!


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

I just finished watching "A group of baby pigeons" and my little pidge perked up to see what was going on. I tried something like what you did in your feeding video but I'm afraid he's not interested in eating and I don't know what to do about it. He's tame and trusting, but he acts like he isn't hungry. He also doesn't make your bird's cute little chirpy sounds  I'll try it again though and let you know if anything happens


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Rrizm, 


It is like asking "Why not use a Hammer to pound Screws in? what's the advantage to useing a Screw Driver or drilling a pilot hole?"


Why insist to use force to pry their Beak "open" when they are happy to eat normally by putting their Beak INTO something as they do in Nature?


Why not pay attention to their Natural History and intrinsic qualities/attributes, and defer TO these, instead of treating them harshly and with the use of force, and in arbitrary imposition?


These are NOT "Gaping" Birds...! either...


...big sigh...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Because I just tried it a third time and he's not eating any of the food even though his crop was empty...
I just figured I needed to fill it since he wasn't taking it willingly.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Rrizm, 


It is like asking "Why not use a Hammer to pound Screws in? what's the advantage to useing a Screw Driver or drilling a pilot hole?"


Why insist to use force to pry their Beak "open" when they are happy to eat normally by putting their Beak INTO something as they do in Nature?


Why not pay attention to their Natural History and intrinsic qualities/attributes, and defer TO these, instead of treating them harshly and with the use of force, and in arbitrary imposition?


These are NOT "Gaping" Birds...! 


They eat, and are happy TO eat, and will assertively insist TO be fed, and to eat, in what for them IS their own easy, safe, natural way of things...


Just stop and think, observe, pay attention "to" them...



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They're happy to eat, that is, as long as they're trusting of you AND they're not feeling bad. Often, when we get sick or hurt birds, they're not interested in eating much or even at all. They can literally starve themselves to death. 

The fact that you say that this bird's keel is prominent isn't a good sign, actually. Tell you what--see if you can pinch the actual keel and hold it between your fingers. Figure that out and then get back to us.

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Because I just tried it a third time and he's not eating any of the food even though his crop was empty...
I just figured I needed to fill it since he wasn't taking it willingly.

I also am not educated enough to know if skipping a few meals is more beneficial than force-filling his crop but I do wonder if he's hesitant simply because he's used to a feathered mama feeding him. He's very much at ease around me, but he's never tasted formula before and for all I know, he doesn't know that formula is food.


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> They're happy to eat, that is, as long as they're trusting of you AND they're not feeling bad. Often, when we get sick or hurt birds, they're not interested in eating much or even at all. They can literally starve themselves to death.
> 
> The fact that you say that this bird's keel is prominent isn't a good sign, actually. Tell you what--see if you can pinch the actual keel and hold it between your fingers. Figure that out and then get back to us.
> 
> Pidgey


Okay, but what's a keel?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The keel is the bone that is in the center of his chest.

I may have missed your answer but how old is the pigeon and what are you feeding it. Are you able to weigh him using a gram scale. A gram is a unit of measure that we usually talk about when we weigh them - "the pigeon weighed 300 grams." That is the best way to keep up with their overall progress.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As Maggie said, the keel is the breastbone. It's also called the sternum or the carina. You can easily see what it looks like in these skeletal drawings:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Oh, thank you muchly. I just replied to this in the food thread. I think I was confusing the keel bone with the sternum. The sternum feels pointy, but the keel is detectable. I can't really pinch it though, it feels like there is a thin layer of fat between the skin and the flat part/keel of the bone, but I can feel it with my fingers.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's like the "keel" of a ship or boat--the sharp edge down the bottom centerline. 

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

The sharp edge of the bone is pointy, but I can't grab onto it with any grip. It does visibly protrude outwards in a way that looks abnormal (at least to my laymen's eye). For instance, I showed him to some children the other day and one commented that he was skinny based on what the bone looks like.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, as long as he stays on good food for awhile, that'll be okay unless a health issue arises. 

You'd mentioned the puppy chow--how big are the actual pieces? Are they little M&M sized bits? You can dip those into water real quick and then put them down him one by one and he'll digest them just fine as long as he gets a little supplemental water. He won't aspirate one of those.

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

They are maybe just a touch bigger than an M&M & I'd be happy to give that a try. Is puppy chow enough, nutritionally, for him though? Or would I still need to give him formula each day?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's been used quite a bit as an emergency food. I expect that it's got the bulk of their nutritional requirements in it, albeit somewhat derived from flesh foods (garbage meat). Pigeons are typically granivores (grain eaters) and are, therefore, primarily vegetarians. However, people have been feeding rescued pigeons puppy chow for a looooooooonnng time with no ill effects that I've ever heard of. 

When it comes down to getting enough down in them to do some good, each situation and rescuer has a slightly different set of circumstances to deal with. You'll be tickled pink when the little feller' starts eating completely on his own, no doubt. You're just going to have some fun getting him there. It might be today and it might be two weeks from now, hard to say. But the puppy chow works. If you get it too wet, it starts getting a little slick and slimey so do whatever works best for you. Try to get about a tablespoon's worth down him at least.

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Oh, that's great  I'll try it. I'm very thankful for this alternative! I'm very very grateful for all your help. Let me ask just one more question? Do you have to wait and see if it lays eggs in order to tell if it's a male or female? Is there another way of telling?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there are a few ways, but none easy. There are tests that a vet can do and send off but we don't normally go that route. When it gets a little older, you can put a mirror in front of them and watch its behavior. If it rookoos, alternately stands up straight and then low, fans its tail and does some funny dancing, it's a good bet it's a male. If it doesn't react much at all, it's more likely a female. It'll probably be a couple of months before you're going to be able to tell that way, though. Otherwise, there's not much of a sure way although it's rumored that some people can feel the bones and tell.

But, no, not right now, you're probably not going to be able to tell.

Pidgey


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

*soak the kibble until soft*

You'll want to soak the dog kibble in water until soft, then feed it to the squeaker. Make sure that you soak new food for each feeding. When I hand raise pigeons I switch them over to soaked kibble at about 2.5-3 wks of age, and feed them that until they're weaned with great results.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is the link to Prizm's thread on Starling Talk.http://www.starlingtalk.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8118


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Thanks, didn't know it was a starling!

I also switch starlings over to soaked kibble prior to weaning, with no problems yet.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

JGregg said:


> Thanks, didn't know it was a starling!
> 
> I also switch starlings over to soaked kibble prior to weaning, with no problems yet.


Uhh... it's not a starling according to the first post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=139543&postcount=1

Pidgey


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

My bad. Why the link to Starling Talk then?


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

A little update!
The puppy chow is working GREAT! He's peeping at my hand now and is able to peck the soggy nuggets and swallow them! His crop is nice and cushy Thank you very much again! He's a happier bird  LOL he even pecks at my mouth  Is over feeding a concern, or will he stop peeping when he's full?

(Oh, and I'm sorry for the confusion about starlingtalk. They refered me to Pigeon -Talk, which is why I mentioned them!)


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Not to worry, the soaked puppy chow works great for baby pigeons as well.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Prizm said:


> A little update!
> The puppy chow is working GREAT! He's peeping at my hand now and is able to peck the soggy nuggets and swallow them! His crop is nice and cushy Thank you very much again! He's a happier bird  LOL he even pecks at my mouth  Is over feeding a concern, or will he stop peeping when he's full?
> 
> (Oh, and I'm sorry for the confusion about starlingtalk. They refered me to Pigeon -Talk, which is why I mentioned them!)


Don't let him peck at your mouth. You may carry some bacteria that would be bad for him (Pasteurella multocida; Klebsiella pneumoniae; etc.).

As long as it's coming out the back end almost as fervently as it's going in the front end, you don't need to worry too much.

Stop peeping? Depends on the bird but some of them only stop peeping when the lights are off.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

JGregg said:


> My bad. Why the link to Starling Talk then?


 Because it gives more information - size, what type of formula.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A little late, now, but Lin took a picture series of me tube-feeding a pigeon with the equipment that I use:

http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL

Pidgey


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## Prizm (Jun 28, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Don't let him peck at your mouth. You may carry some bacteria that would be bad for him (Pasteurella multocida; Klebsiella pneumoniae; etc.).
> 
> As long as it's coming out the back end almost as fervently as it's going in the front end, you don't need to worry too much.
> 
> ...


I think it's cool that he even knows where my mouth is. He's a smart little birdy  Funny, I worried he might pass a bacteria to me, instead of the other way around. Not to worry, my fingers have evolved into beaks now XD


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pidgey said:


> A little late, now, but Lin took a picture series of me tube-feeding a pigeon with the equipment that I use:
> 
> http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks Lin and Pidgey for the pictures! I'm going to make it a sticky in the resources section.

Terry


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## jacobsshygrl (May 3, 2006)

I found feeding Winnie to be really difficult at first too, but after a while she and I both got the hang of it and it became her favorite thing in the world. to this day if she sees the syringe (despite the fact that she hasn't eaten from it in months) she freaks our and flaps in excitement. My parents used to make me tell them when I was ready to feed her so they could come watch and giggle at how excited she would get about it. What I did was the "modified syringe" method. The syringe and tube kind of scared me away...I didn't like the idea of accidentally missing and drowning the bird. It was just easier for me to do it this way I guess. We wasted a lot more food than she ever ate, but it worked out ok and she would end up with a full crop. My modified syringe had the top cut off and i used duct tape around it to make the smaller hole....i tried the fabric method but it just didn't seem to work. Dont be afraid of a mess, thats the only advice I have, when they get older they will be such clean birds but in order to feed them and get them to that point they might make a mess. hope you get your little one to eat easier. as weird as it sounds i kind of miss the hand feeding stage, it was a really good way for winnie and i to bond.


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