# Pencil Question



## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

is Pencil dominant or recessive .. and what is the different between Pencil and Frill stencil..


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

pencil is a recessive mutation on the same gene as recessive white and gazzi. So that last picture is either not pencil or not gazzi. Could it be undergrizzle?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> pencil is a recessive mutation on the same gene as recessive white and gazzi. So that last picture is either not pencil or not gazzi. Could it be undergrizzle?


I hear that rec white and gazzi could potentially be on the same locus, Has this been prooven? The first birds look frill stencil... maybe TS aswell on the second one????? If so I wonder if they are co dominance in the way tha the pencilling can still show in the patterned areas of a gazzi bird?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They look penciled to me. Pencil can vary a lot, I suppose based on what other factors are in play. It can white out the wings and back, leaving a colored head. Like in Mooreheads. Or it can created a undergrizzle look like in Brivers and Baghdads. I believe to get the extreme version ug is needed as well. I have yet to see ug alone be this dramatic. As for stencil, they do not looked grizzled like this unless you count before they moult where the bronze looks scratchy with white showing through.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I hear that rec white and gazzi could potentially be on the same locus, Has this been prooven? The first birds look frill stencil... maybe TS aswell on the second one????? If so I wonder if they are co dominance in the way tha the pencilling can still show in the patterned areas of a gazzi bird?


They could be heterozygous gazzi combined with pencil but:
They look too perfect for such a mix.
They would throw pure gazzi and pure pencil next to the combo color.

Rec.white and gazzi being alleles of the same gene is more probable than pencil and gazzi being alleles (i.m.o.).
The gazzi gene seems to start with pigmentlessness of the belly region, not the wingshield.


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Here is an earlier link in regards to pencil...http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/what-is-pencil-49601.html

I personally have not done much research on this pattern. The first bird may be pencilled but the last pair, I agree with Henk, too perfect. I 'd guess toy stencil/ frill stencil and sooty


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They are all pencils but I guess you have the right to disagree with me. The last birds are strassers, in which pencil is definitely present.


Pencil, recessive white, and gazzi are not alleles of each other. Recessive white (z^wh) and gazzi (z) are alleles. Pencil is pc.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I think too that both pictures are the same "pencil" mutation.
Pencil does not fit to the gazzi-locus/gene.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

There has been a lot of discussion whether the pencil gene is at the Z locus or not. Some researchest have done studies and came to the conclusion that pencil is an allele of recessive white, while others have come to the conclusion that they are not alleles. This could mean that they are linked closely on the same chromosome, though they do not actually coincide. This would explain how Strassers can be both pencil and gazzi.

To answer the original question in for the thread. Pencil is recessive, as Henk noted earlier. As to the difference between the two.

Pencil causes an effect similar to grizzle, with the base of the feather light and the tip dark, which mostly affects the wings and tail of the birds (but unlike grizzle, rarely affects the head). The pattern of the bird is unimportant to the effect. It is impossible to a breed black white bar with this gene.

Frill stencil causes a stencil effect on the wing shield and tail. This means that the spread parts which would have been black in the pattern area and tail bar, will become white when frill stencil is involved (often with a black lacing around the edge of the white parts). On spread birds, the pattern is not punched out through the black (for this Toy Stencil is required), but the tail may become laced, meaning the entire tail is white with a dark edge. Frill stencil may also cause a finch marking - a white dot near the tip of the flights - in some cases.

To summarize, the shield of a black pencil bird may look somewhat similar to the shield of some check toy-stenci/frill-stencil complex bird, but the tail is very different. Pencil is somewhat like a grizzle, toy stencil punches pattern through as white (bar, spangle, laced) on the wing shields and frill stencil mostly affects the wing (finch markings) and tail (white tail bar or laced tail).


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Becky, based on what limited pics I have found, I never came across such a uniform expression. I would like to know how the shield is uniform? Are these birds presumably homozygous pencil?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here's another penciled strasser:












Frill stencil "laces" the wings and laces/spots the tail. Toy stencil can make the pattern either bronze or white, and put finch marks on the wings. Satinettes are both kinds of stencil.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Czech Bagdads and another variation of pencil.








This picture belongs to doveman or whatever he goes by on here.
Another









Breast pigeons.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks Becky, I have not read a lot on stencil but my friend has an ash red cock racer that looks a lot like the stencil gazzis on this thread ( not gazzi ofcourse ) and do you remember an ash red bird on PT a while back ( maybe 2 months ) that was believed to be ug by the owner. The bird I am talking off looks a lot like that too, I have been offered to use it to breed with as he does not race but I have reduced, Saddle and dilute on the go so do not really want a lot more, I might have to take him though and see how it expresses on blue.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

thank you all for your replys..

I think pincel is also has a hit of dirty, sooty or maybe, smoky.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Frill stencil "laces" the wings and laces/spots the tail. Toy stencil can make the pattern either bronze or white, and put finch marks on the wings. Satinettes are both kinds of stencil.


Frill stencil without TS does not lace the wings, though sometimes does cause a pinkish cast to the wings.

There were pictures in the PGNL a couple of months ago that showed FS birds with normal pattern areas and spot tails. as well as spread birds with no marking and incomplete laced tails.

Finch markings do indeed seem to require TS, T-pattern and probably another factor, since TS alone often does not cause finch markings (T-pattern starlings do not always show finch markings).


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