# Update on my Pigeons that Died



## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

I had two pass away on Sunday, unexpectedly-My "boyfriend" and "Mighty Bird".the only two I was bonded with. They only showed signs of sickness for 1-2 days. Spoke with Terry the other day.

Update: Talked to Foy's Pigeon supply...he said there are two viruses for which there is no cure /treatment (only treatment of secondary infections) that are killing pigeons all over the country. Adeno virus and Circo Virus. This may be a possibility.

For $20.00 they will check two fecal samples for parasites, cocci, and many other pigeon diseases. I should find out something today. Paratyphoid/Chlamydia(Ornithosis) are two I'm suspecting if not these viruses. I am treating w/ Baytril (this will work for E-coli, Paratyphoid and Ornithosis) and it was recommended to follow with Canker treatment afterwards. When they have both the virus and the secondary, many times it's too much for them, but treating the secondary, may save their lives. 

My birds have not been out for about a year, so I am thinking it's more likely something that developed in the coop (paratyhpoid) possibly from roaches and/or mice (recent evidence of mice). It's also been very rainy and it's possible some seed got wet and moldy, although, I didn not observe that. This could have been brought in from the two racing birds I found about 10 months ago. Birds can be carriers of Paratyphoid for a long time, if never treated.

Will post an update. Until I know something, I'm keeping a close eye, keeping the coop clean and treating with Baytril. I'm still so heartbroken.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Donna,

It's Bruce in Austin (aka birdy). Sorry to learn about your birds. Just a suggestion, but a better way to determine the cause is to take your birds to the TX Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Lab in Gonzales. Don't freeze them but keep cool in the frig. Doc Linares will post one or both and do a necropsy and histopath. I had an unexplained death last year and he ran the tests for me. Turned out to be a congenital problem.

His phone number is 830-672-2834. Good luck and I hope you lick it before any others get sick.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

*Hey Bruce*

HI Bruce! Well, this was two birds in one day. I also lost one two months ago, unexplained. So I believe there is something going on. They've been in the frig (put in approximately 2 hours after death). How long can you keep them before they can't test them? I may do this, however, since I was very bonded with these two, I wanted to bury them. I will call them though, thanks for the info!

I may need a couple of hens if you have any young ones. Their mates have no one left...all mine were paired up. They mourned over their losses...it was very sad. I let them see their mate for a few minutes so they'd know they died and didn't just disappear.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Donna,

I am so sorry - what a bummer. It's really tough to lose them that way. All the best to you in this difficult time.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

*Thanks*

Thanks Bruce. Let me know when you can part with two young hens. I added on a huge aviary just recently, so they got to experience daily bathing and sunning. I will soon attempt to let them out again, now that they've had full view of their surroundings. It's been a year now and the ones I have left, managed to find their way home when they got lost the first time. 

Do you have any young ones now? I want to treat with Baytril another 12 days, so I could take them then. Just let me know. Thanks again.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You might try sulmet. It workswell on cocsidioses. And e coli. About 8. dollars a bottle at most vet supply . Mixes in the water. about three caps to a gallon. Parathyphoid If your birds were carrying it, Would show up with swollen joints. And such. Have not seen many racing homers with that. If you have cool damp conditions cocsid. can grow. But in summer months it is rare . As heat and light deture it.. Did they go down on weight fast. And get loose green droppings. Or did they drop in weight and could not fly and droppings seemed fare. My brother in law in LA. had problems like this. It after I spoke to him about the birds and the loft. They were eating fouled grain. I told him to make a box about 6 inches larger both sides and ends then put hardware clothe over set his feeder on it. Any spilled grain would drop in there and the birds could not get it. Easy to clean out. Just dump it. He works two weeks on two weeks off. And his son sometimes over feeds. Best way Is to put just enough grain down that the birds can clean up in ten minutes. Two times a day. If you can not try the other method. And hens need grit. I use oyster sheel tablets on them befor the breeding season. For five days. To build there calcium up. Lack of this will stress a hen enough they will go down or die dureing or just after laying sometimes. Dont know if any of what I said will help. But works for me.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

Hi ReLee-Thanks for all your input. I do have that treatment for Cocci- but can you mix this with Baytril or do I need to wait? Oyster Sheel Tablets...are these something you give orally or mix in with food? Where do you buy yours? I often wondered if they were lacking calcium from many years of egg laying. They get the pigeon grit daily and I thought that covered them with the calcium. But these both were hens...but to die on the same day? Strange.

The molded seed is another thing I thought of. Good advice on the mesh thing. I will try this. I've seen the pigeons pick up seed off the floor so I know there's always that possibility of eating older seed. I do try to feed enough for just the day, but they kick out some too that gets on the floor. 

I would like to know what it was, even if the Baytril prevents any more incidences. That way I will know to look for things in the future. HOpefully, the samples will show something. 

p.s.-They did lose weight rapidly. That was another thing I didn't mention. Over the past few weeks, I've noticed that a lot of my birds were losing some weight. I thought maybe they were avoiding the feed because I've had trouble with fire ants getting in the coop. I dont' want to put anything in the coop though because it would be poisonous. These two had loose green droppings towards the end. They both could fly up to the 12' high perches in the aviary. They were wanting sun before they died.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

I would like to make one suggeston. It's impossible to tell what is going on if there is something in the coop. If you see a bird that shows symptoms of anything, would you be willing to isolate him in a separate cage and take the droppings for testing? If something is isolated and diagnosed, you could then treat all of your birds for the same illness.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

Fred, that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to find another bird that may have had diarrhea and couldn't. I did trace one dropping however and was able to get that sample sent off to Foy's. I am hoping they discover something. But I was afraid I lost my other two because i didn't start them on the Baytril sooner and the remaining, so far are doing okay. I hate to treat blindly, but I was very concerned I had an epidemic going on and wanted to start something right away, and Baytril knocks out a lot of things. I've been told that it's okay to mix the cocci and canker meds with the liquid baytril, is this true? Anyone?Oh, and thanks Fred. I too like to be cautious and hesitated putting the two on Baytril for that very reason. Turns out though, they didn't have much time and I was worried the others may not either.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

We should talk openly about this and to be honest, you have a problem in the coop. That means you can’t bring in any new birds even of you quarantine them. Even if the new birds are illness free, they can contract whatever is going on. You can’t send any birds out for obvious reasons so the coop is now quarantined.
The two birds that died were probably sick for much longer than two days. If this is paratyphoid, they could have been sick for months without showing symptoms. Flock birds mask their illness until they can no longer hide them so these two birds had some illness way before they exhibited symptoms.
I’m pretty sure this is not PMV or you would have known from the neck twisting
I don’t think this is circovirus because that usually hits parrots. It can happen in pigeons but is a fairly rare occurrence.
I don’t think this is avian flu because it has been fairly well controlled in this country. There is now a mutated strain in Asia and if comes here, people will die.
Basically, my guess is that you have a bacterial infection in the coop. Going on that assumption (which could be wrong), you need to dose the entire coop with an antibiotic. The only way to do it with a coop is to put the medication into their drinking water. Unless you have a very few birds, this is about the only way you can go. Baytril, although the most efficacious drug, is very expensive. If this is paratyphoid, there are over 2000 strains of salmonella and Baytril is the drug that hits most of them. The next best drug is Clavamox, which is a combination of Amoxycillin and a drug that prevents the penicillin from being destroyed by staph bacteria.
Without a diagnosis, giving another water-soluble antibiotic may not work at all. The water treatment is not the best way of giving antibiotics because you can’t control the dose the birds get. It depends on how much they drink. Some bacterial illnesses even reduce the bird’s thirst so this is all very chancy.
Regardless of whatever I wrote, you need to put an antibiotic into the water. You might as well add sulphur based one because they are the easiest to obtain and are very water-soluble. At least you are doing something while waiting for a diagnosis from Foys.
The only other suggestion I have is to wash the coop down with a 10% Clorox solution to kill as much infection as possible.
If this is coccidiosis, a sulphur drug will work so at least you are covering some bases.
We both know that this may get worse before it gets better and we are both very concerned about the situation. Please keep us updated on this.


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

I believe my vet charges $22 for a dropping test. Foys charges $20, I believe. Certain testings have to be performed within an hour or two of freshness. 

Julie


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## Snowbird (Jun 24, 2004)

I believe Fred is talking sense and I underline a few points in particular:

* there is a problem in the loft and you saw the end product of something that has been going wrong for some time.

* The whole loft needs to be shut down, cleaned, then disinfectected.

The exotic, mystery virus is not as probable as the typical bacteria; it comes down to loft management. I hope you turn it around and grow prosperous.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Just a couple of points...

Why not have the dead birds posted? To my thinking a more accurate way to determine cause of death.

Donna, there are a few avian vets in Austin (and probably Round Rock) that will do a fecal exam - just call around. If you need a disinfectant call me. I have Virkon-S that I can give you. It's a viricide that was used in the UK to cleanse and disinfect for foot and mouth disease. Bleach will work too. I guess you got the word - you need to clean that coop really well. PLUS... plug all the holes. No mice or rats should be getting into your loft. Your pigeons will eat their feces and that's no bueno. And no moldy feed. You've got a number of problems working here.

Fred, as far as I know avian influenza does not affect pigeons. However, I don't think it's under control. In Texas, there was an high pathogenic outbreak in April in a commercial flock not far from San Antonio. Currently, there is a low path outbreak in Sulphur Springs, NE of Dallas - in a commercial flock and a backyard flock. The state's animal health agency is working to eradicate it. This year, there's been one in British Columbia where thousands of birds were "depoped", and there's been a couple of AI outbreaks on the US eastcoast. 

Donna, Fred's right. We can't even think about new birds until your problem is licked. I would wait at least a couple of months before any additions - maybe a bit longer. Talk to you soon.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Birdy,
Thanks for the correction. You're right and I wasn't thinking. Pigeons don't contract nor transmit avian influenza. That was an important correction.
What I should have addressed is Chlamydia from the original post. That is not paratyphoid but is the organism that causes psitticosis. It's a possible source for the infection in the coop however, it starts off as a respiratory infection and there was no mention of any symptoms of a respiratory nature. It's a combination viral/bacterial infection. Again, since there was no mention of respiratory symptoms, I think we can rule that one out too. I don't know why but my gut instinct is pointing towards either paratyphoid or coccidiosis.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If other birds are off weight also. But acting healthy. And you have a fire ant problem too I would still try the sulmet. Agin it does not sound like parathyphoid. Clean your Loft. After boxing the birds. Yes just bleach water in a spray bottle will work . Then they have crystals that can be put around the loft to keep the fire ants away. And will last several months. Worm all the birds also. And oyster shell tabs can be bought at any walmart drug store ect. they are tabs and you give them by beak. . I think the problem may go away . You may lose a bird or two that may be to weak. Treat birds for five days. scip a week then treat agin. I still lean towards cocsid, or ecoli.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Yes, you can mix Baytril, a drug like Appertex for coccidiosis, and a canker medication. I would hold off using a wormer for a few days if you are going to combine all three meds at the same time. It would be a bit too much. If you use Flagyl as the antibiotic (Metronadozole), you are hitting any canker as well as gut infections. For what it's worth, I give one Appertex, one Spartrix and Baytril all at once. If there is a sick bird and I don't know what the problem is, I clean out the system right at the beginning to completely rebuild it and cover a lot of bases at the same time.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2004)

Wow...lots of feedback and info...thanks guys.

It is possible there was some respiratory thing going on, because in the end, they both sounded somewhat "croupy", but there wasn't any sneezing, running eye/nares prior with my birds. My personal opinion is that it is Paratyphoid and they probably did have it for a while and I probably did get it from one of a couple of racing birds I added (rescued birds) to my coop 10 months ago. The two were hens and were probably run down from breeding and so it took over. I feel bad I didn't observe any signs earlier, but nothing really stood out. I think it just got these two run down birds.

I am treating with Baytril for 12-14 days in the water and will follow with a treatment for Canker per Foy's recommendations. But I think a necropsy on the birds can tell me a lot more than the fecal droppings, unless they find something conclusive. With the possibility of mice getting in, this could have easily been the culpret. We've plugged up all possible entryways, but they were tiny areas and I never really saw any mice droppings except at the doorway...not anywhere in the coop. But roaches have been a problem. And this could have been the culpret as well. 

So far the other birds are doing good, but I still worry. But I feel much better knowing they are on the baytril. Now, we cleaned the coop good Sunday when they died, but I still need to use the clorox solution all over like you guys are suggesting. 

*BUT, FYI, Foy's and Siegal's both told me yesterday that the two viruses I mentioned earlier are a big problem across the country and killing healthy pigeons...adeno and circo viruses.* 

I can't put too much outside my coop in terms of pestiticides as I have several dogs.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2004)

*Three Questions....*

I want to clarify...it's okay to mix the meds for cocci and canker in the WATER with the baytril? I always thought you had to be careful with mixing meds?

ALSO, I've always used a different type of disinfectent that i bought from Foys, but do feel Clorox is in order here. After I spray it all down, how long before they can come back in...I know the fumes can be strong.

Third- If it was moldy seed would they get sick right away and would that cause the paratyphoid or would it be the ecoli? One of the birds was throwing up his baytril tablet and it appeared to be signs of dark yellowish liquid coming out, which to me was indicative of E-coli, but I know you can have both E-coli and Paratyphoid together.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Yes, adeno virus aka YBS - Young Bird Sickness - is here. I experienced it last year as I believe most racing enthusiasts get it now. Your youngsters are fine until the first couple of races when they're mixed with the other pigeons, then they start up-chucking their grain at night. Others will eat the vomited grain and then the entire loft is infected. This year I placed boxes under the perches with hardware cloth on top so that if any of them toss their grain it will fall to the boxes and the others can't get at it. My YBS only lasted a few days. I gave the birds Sedachol, a vit B supplement, and I believe their immune systems kicked in and fought it for they raced well afterwards. Youngsters with deficient immunity would probably get secondary infections and succumb - just a guess.

Here's a good article on circovirus ("like human AIDS"):
http://members.aol.com/duiven/circo.htm

birdy


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2004)

Thanks Bruce. I did read that same article yesterday. I'm thinking since my birds haven't been out in a year that the odds of contracting those viruses would be much slimmer.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

I guess I'm behind in my reading. Circovirus is related to parrots' psitticine beak and feather disease. Apparently, this is a growing problem with pigsons. Here is a link that discusses this.
http://members.aol.com/duiven/circo.htm


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

You can mix the medications. The one thing that you can't do is to combine an antibiotic that kills bacteria outright with one that interferes with the reproductive process of the bacteria.


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

After using a Clorox type of chemical to wash down the coop, hose the entire area with fresh water. You should be able to kill the odor with one or two thorough washes.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Donna,

1. I would take Fred's advice and mix the meds.
2. Cleanse and disinfect the loft tomorrow early a.m. with bleach. Let it dry and place birds in loft late afternoon.
3. Moldy grain is likely to have fungi like aflotoxins and it's my guess they would get sick pretty quick. Paratyphoid is a result of a salmonella bacterium and I guess it could be found in the feed. I believe it to spread primarily through the drinkers and poop. Do you think rats or mice got in the feed? 

Once your birds are on the mend I would recommend that you vaccinate your birds for paratyphoid as well as PMV if you don't already.

Here's an article on paratyphoid:
http://home2.planetinternet.be/rice1/paratyphoid.htm

birdy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Boyfriend*

I am so sorry that Boyfriend died. I remember how upset you were when you thought you had lost him last year and we were all so pleased when he returned alive and well. Somewhere his spirit is flying free.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2004)

Thanks Cynthia and everyone. I can't believe you remembered Boyfriend. It has just broken my heart. He (she actually) had a mate, but still knew me as a mate as well. He'd come up on my shoulder and snuggle in my neck, and communicate to me often. Poor Baby. I guess it was even possible that he picked up something the five days he was out on his own and brought it to the loft. That was about 10 months ago too. To lose both these special birds is still so unbelievable. I've had pigeons for 7 years now and nothing like this has happened. I'm not doing anything different, same coop, everything. But I was vaccinating each year for both PMV and Paratyphoid and didn't this past year because I was keeping them up for a year. 

Has anyone had problems with feed from the store that was moldy? I'd be so upset if that was the culpret. I find no droppings of mice in the coop which is strange, because I saw shredded up stuff from one of my birds nesting pads in the corner near the door and what appeared to be a couple of mouse dropping. I see the roaches often. 

As far as a their spirits flying free now, as one friend told me, maybe these two special angels will be my spiritual guide and be looking over me.  
I know to many pigeon folks, the birds are just possessions and for racing, but for me, I knew everything about every one. When they laid eggs, who they were mated to, everything. I can walk into the coop and instantly know if something is "not right". And these two, I was very bonded with. It's like we had a connection...they are very special birds.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Sometimes a healthy bird will just up and die over night. Not giving any symptoms to being sick at all. But if you have roaches in the loft. Seems like there is a moisture problem. But if the other birds are doing fine now sounds like you have a hold on the problem.. Breeding pigeons has its set backs. But we learn and go on. Fresh air. dry loft clean feed. and no over crowding . Then preventive treatments is the best we can do sometimes.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2004)

We've had tons of rains in Texas in the last month with big winds, that does blow it into the coop. My seed however, is covered well, but the roaches do get in and there is dampness in the air.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Prevention*

Prevention is a big issue here, and everyone has mentioned all of it. I too, would clean up everything in the coop before adding any birds, or letting any out.

I would never feed my birds more then they consume in a day. I have been tought as a little child to throw away any left over seed, and always put new clean, dry seed in the feeders. Also, make sure you disinfect the waterers daily.

My pigeons eat in a dining room, which is a small coop that sits high off the ground, like a rabbit hutch, what they flick out of the feeder goes thru the hardware cloth and out to the ground. I don't feed in the inside loft where seed can mix with poopy.

If you would like more info. on an excellent germicide that is organic and doesn't smell bad, but cleans more effectively then bleach, just e-mail me.

Treesa


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## sirpigeon (Jan 25, 2002)

Hi Donna,

Sorry to hear of your losses. Years ago I bought a bunch of new birds at a show and diseases were introduced into my coop from these new birds.I ended up losing a bird or two daily until I vaccinated for PMV and treated with dacoxine 4 in 1. Since using these products I haven't had a single loss in three years! I also used apple cider vinegar in the drinking water for about a month. I now use the dacoxine yearly as a preventative and also pmv vaccinate.I never introduce new birds to my coop until I've treated them for 7 days with dacoxine and pmv vaccinated them.For extra calcium I add oyster shell to the grit.I get the oyster shell at the feed store.For lice and bugs I use sevin garden dust.I powder the birds and put powder in the nest bowl with the squabs.Maybe the sevin will work on your fire ants?I hope this may be of some help to you.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Donna,

I'm so sorry for your loss. I also remembered how special Boyfriend was to you, and how she came back after you thought you had lost her to the dog tragedy. Like you, each and every one of my pigeons is a pet with a name and a history, and some I'm quite bonded with. It's so hard when you lose your favorite pigeons.  

I hope you'll get some answers from the testing, and please let us know what the results are. I know how frustrating it is when you try to do everything right and still end up with sick birds. But we live and learn, I guess. 

-Cathy


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2004)

Thanks so much Sir Pigeon. I've only had losses to hawks in the past so this has been hard for me to deal with. I've had pigeons for seven years now. I had some of that 4- in one in the past, but will get some more on hand for newcomers. I do pigeon rescue and I know I will eventually be adding more to my coop. Usually I just keep them isolated for a month, worm them and observe for illnesses. 

Pigeons are doing good so far. They actually seemed to be more perked up yesterday which tells me the BAytril is helping, which tells me, it's some sort of bacterial thing, e-coli, paratyphoid or Ornithosis. But that's a lot to figure out and i'd really like to know. 

You guys are great...thanks for all the advice.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2004)

Cathy, I thought I replied to you and I don't see it. I can't believe you remembered about Boyfriend too. He (she, but I still call him he) was very special and I was so excited when he found his way back home. To survive all that and then this....it's so heartbreaking. I will miss his nods and snuggling in my neck.


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