# hard crop



## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

i have a white pigeon whos crop is hard.like really hard.it feels like a big clump of seeds. i have no idea how that happen.but i asked one of my pigeon friend and he said that it is canker so i started the pigeon on canker pills for 5 days. and it seemed to get smaller.but than it started to get bigger again.so now i have no idea wut is wrong. when i touch the crop it just feels like the seeds are all stuck there in a hard clump and not going anywhere.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It could be a very bad case of canker. What canker med are you using?

You can also try to gently massage the crop with your fingertips and try to get an idea of whether the solid mass is canker or seeds (impacted crop). If the crop is impacted, you can syringe a bit of water with a couple of drops or olive or canola oil in it and then try to break up the mass by gently massaging.

Also check very, very carefully to be sure there isn't a rip or tear in the crop that has become abscessed and created a hard mass that is filling the hole.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi PG06,


If the Bird has not drank enough Water, and has at the same time eaten a lot of Seeds...

His Crop can end up like a Baseball or something...

So, for now, unless you actually SEE 'yellow' in his poops and or Canker lesions IN his Throat...or have clinical reasonss to suspect Canker otr Trichomoniasis...

Just withold Seeds for a day or so, and make sure he has access to dinking Water...

And see if it all passes allright...


Squeakers in the wild do this, can have the huge 'hard' Crops full of Seeds...when their parents feed them lots of Seeds, but have trouble finding them Water often enough through out the day...or if the Squeaker gets seperated from them somehow after being well fed, and goes without Water then...

So, in summary, make sure your Bird has Water to drink...and make sure he is drinking it.


Some of my Adult Pigeons here stuff themselves too like this, and for them, it is just what they do and it is not a problem.

Otherwise, far as I know, Crops are happiest when they are 'squishy'...


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I have been told to put a little very little warm water in the crop and gently try to break up the clump of seeds, if you have a vet they can assist you better. Do not feed any seeds at this time as it will only add to the problem. Maybe a Little baby bird food real muchy, When ever I have seen it at this stage it has already advanced kind of badly. Please keep it away from other birds. Good Luck try some more advice from the other members here they are more advanced than I, that is just what I would do though.


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

well, its so hard that i cant break it up. it has access to water all day and it is seperated from the other pigeons for a week and two days now. i use pregosan canker pills from seigals. it eats the seeds that i give it. there is nothing inside the mouth. it is about the size of two little bouncy balls together ( the small bouncy balls that u get from the vending machines).it seems to be eating and pooping ok.the poop looks like a evergreenish color.and its just little drops.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Access to water is not enough. You need to give him a LOT of water. No food at this point untill all the mass is gone.
I had several birds with this problem. I gave them about 5cc's of water/ hour for the first couple of hours, then less, about two cc's/hour. All were fine by the end of the day.
As Terry mentioned, put one drop of oil in every other cc of water.
The longer the stuff stays in the crop the worse the outcome.

Reti


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

ok, thank you all. i will try that and let u know about the outcome.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeongirl06 said:


> well, its so hard that i cant break it up. it has access to water all day and it is seperated from the other pigeons for a week and two days now. i use pregosan canker pills from seigals. it eats the seeds that i give it. there is nothing inside the mouth. it is about the size of two little bouncy balls together ( the small bouncy balls that u get from the vending machines).it seems to be eating and pooping ok.the poop looks like a evergreenish color.and its just little drops.



Hi PG06,


I assumed this was an adult Bird...is it? 

Is it a young Bird?

You say it eats the Seeds you give it...

If his Crops is full and hard and you are worried, why keep giving him Seeds?

What kind of Seeds or other food have you been giving him? Or, what has he been eating? - can you say?

What evidence is there for Canker?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

does it matter what type of oil i use? or does it have to be olive or canola oil?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I doubt that it would matter which kind of vegetable oil that you use. What kind did you plan on using?

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Well for a mass to be in the crop that size honey that is big. Are you sure it is seeds and not something else? Seriously I would try to get it into the vets if possible, sometimes it just takes a vet to manipulate it and losen it so they can suck it out. Just leaving it could in the long or short end cause a bacterial to start growing and end up in the end killing it. Reti is right stop all seeds imediately as this will just add to the problem, keep us in touch Good Luck 

Cindy


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

i was planning on using vegatabale oil. becasue i have some on hand.but as long as its oil and its ok than im gonna go ahead and try it.

i am sure its just a lump of seed.but i have no idea how it can form and stick together like that.my husband put some grit mix with the seeds too when i told him not to mix seed and grit together.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maybe you should try this: wet the feathers over one of these areas with either a dishsoap-and-water mix so that the feathers can actually get soaking wet or rubbing alcohol. That way, you can easily part the feathers and look through the skin of that area. Normally, the skin and crop is quite translucent and you can see peas and corn through it well enough that you can actually identify them. In this case get a good look over a broad area (just keep moving the feathers aside till you've seen an area the size of a quarter) and see if you can figure it out. If necessary, you can "trans-illuminate" the area by taking a small flashlight and literally shining into the flesh like you would by holding a flashlight completely against your hand as though to make it all turn glowing red. This can demonstrate if the mass is completely dark or if it glows red as well. Let us know what you discover and what colors you see, that sort of thing.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Maybe you should try this: wet the feathers over one of these areas with either a dishsoap-and-water mix so that the feathers can actually get soaking wet or rubbing alcohol. That way, you can easily part the feathers and look through the skin of that area. Normally, the skin and crop is quite translucent and you can see peas and corn through it. If necessary, you can "trans-illuminate" the area by taking a small flashlight and literally shining into the flesh like you would by holding a flashlight completely against your hand as though to make it all turn glowing red. This can demonstrate if the mass is completely dark or if it glows red as well. Let us know what you discover and what colors you see, that sort of thing.
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey,

What can one suspect if the area is dark or red? Infection, mass? Will it look yellow if it is canker? Any idea?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it looks yellow without the trans-illumination, it could be canker but this has gone on a little bit long, hasn't it? The original post was on the 15th but pigeongirl06 said something about it having been treating it for an unspecified number of days. I'm mostly fishing for something tangible that would jump out if I had the bird in hand. I saw a yellow mass in a chick that hadn't developed feathers over the area once and that was canker (I resolved it with Metronidazole). I'm having a little hard time imagining something that persistent in that area that hasn't already begun to kill the bird or demonstrate profound sickness. So, if it's something else altogether, it'd be nice to have some indication.

Pidgey


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## pigeon_trainer (Jul 2, 2006)

For anyone who was in on the Timmy discussion, my young pigeon Timmy had a similar problem when he started eating seeds. In fact, I didn't know he could even eat seeds yet, but I put a bowl of small seeds in his box for him to peck around at and half an hour later, he had a crop absolutley FULL of seeds.

It stayed like this for a few days and I wasn't sure if it was stuck or if he was just constantly gorging himself on seeds. I left a few seeds in the bowl, but added broken up pigeon pellet food as well (figuring this would digest better). I also made sure he was drinking his water, and if he didn't appear to be getting enough, I gave him some in a syringe. Just enough so that I could feel the seeds move around if I touched the crop.

Since I just weened him off the baby bird food formula, I've also starting giving him a syringe or two of that a day (fairly watery). He still has seeds in his crop, but only about 1/4 of what he had before.

Hopefully this works for you too (it seems along the lines of what everyone else is saying).

I've actually been thinking about bringing up this topic as well, but haven't. I'm glad you did, because I could use the information too  The oil sounds like a good idea if I have this problem again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If you are going to use 'Oil' just go and get a fresh, new, small Bottle of good Quality Olive Oil and skip whatever old stuff is 'on the shelf'.

Almost everyone I have ever known has old, spoiled, rancid somethingorother 'oil' on their shelf, and it will make the Bird sick all on it's own if it is used.

Better yet, throw away whatever IS 'on the shelf' and learn how to keep Oil, which is in the Fridge...and for no more than few few months once it has been opened. Hence, buy a size which you WILL use in a few months.

Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too...

You never said if this is a young Bird new to self feeding?

Or an older adlut Bird?


...and or if you have in fact with-held the Seeds from him since noticing his 'hard' or overfull, inadequately hydrated Crop...

In fact, you more or less said you have continued to feed him or to provide Seeds since noticing this...so...

What are you doing?

Can you clearify please?

Is the Bird pooping?

If you have him segregated, can you tell if there are poops being made?

Can describe what they look like?

How many in-a-day?

...in 24 Hours?

Does he still have access to Seeds? Or have you with-held the Seeds?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

well since last night, we took the seeds out before dark and today i checked the crop at about 1:30 pm here and it has gotten smaller. i would say the size of a quarter now.there is water in the cage at all times. the bird is 2 yrs old now. all it does is sit hunched up on the perch all day unless i try to catch it and give it medicine. there are poops being made and it is like a green tea color with some white. but it is not big poop, i would say the size of a corn. ive also given it some oil with water in a syringe like everybody has said, so i will see what happens.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeongirl06 said:


> well since last night, we took the seeds out before dark and *today i checked the crop at about 1:30 pm here and it has gotten smaller*. i would say the size of a quarter now.there is water in the cage at all times. the bird is 2 yrs old now. all it does is sit hunched up on the perch all day unless i try to catch it and give it medicine. there are poops being made and it is like a green tea color with some white. but it is not big poop, i would say the size of a corn. *ive also given it some oil with water in a syringe like everybody has said*, so i will see what happens.


Thanks for the update pigeongirl.  
Glad to hear the 'mass' in the pijjie's crop seems to be getting smaller.  
No doubt the oil had a lot to do with this.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to give the little one rehydrating solution (To a cup of water add a pinch each of salt & sugar) in place of plain water. This helps to give them a bit of a boost. 

Please keep us posted on how things are coming along.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi PG06,


Well...what was not clear here, was whether this is or was actually a problem.

Many Pigeon adults will routinely go around with a full, firm, Crop, ( like they'd swallowed a Tennis Ball ) so long as they have plenty of available Seeds to do it with.

Some youngsters will do this also, in their enthusiasms of learning to peck and self seed...and for them it can likely be a little dangerous if they are allowed to over-do it...especially as the Seeds will expand as they hydrate.

Anyway, there is not per-se any relation between a full firm Crop, and Canker...as many Pigeons who are perfectly healthy in every way will stuff themselves, and, so long as there are ready Seeds, they will stay stuffed as they eat more to keep 'full'...

If your Bird is making really small Poops, then something does seem 'off'...

If there is previous or on-goin illness of some kind...

Had there been any previous diagnosis, any examination by an experienced Vet?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

no examinations, but the crop seems to be going down. i can tell if its a full firm crop or not. and this is not one of them. its super hard like a cement ball.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pigeongirl,

Have you wet the feathers as Pidgey suggested and also tried the flashlight trick? If not, I think you need to do this. By wetting the feathers and having a careful look, you may also discover that there is a "plug" that has developed to seal off a tear in the crop. Best to really carefully check out all the possibilities if you can.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi PG06,


Hmmmmm...well if there is a large abcess then this would be a very serious situation.

Such abcesses can absorb Water and seem to dissappear far as being able to feel them conspicuously.

Or when 'dry'-ish, may seem quite firm indeed...

Definitely do the wet Feather thing Pidgey and Terry are recommending...look carefully at the skin covering his Crop and see if you can notice anything odd. The Skin there, all over it, should be merely opaque, like this Rice-Dough...to where one is usually able to literally 'see' if vaguely, the individual Seeds inside the Crop. 

Any abcess or infection in the outer Crop should be visible by this method.

...are there any Feathers in dis-array or slight disarray there on his Crop?


Phil
Las Veas


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

well, ive taken out the feed for two days now and it got smaller but it didnt dissappear.so i have no idea whats wrong now.ive tried that oil thing too.and it doesnt do anything too it either.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Did you ever perform the 'wet feather' test that Pidgey suggested in post #13?


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

not yet.i will try that tomorrow.but by the way it feels, it does feel like all the seeds that it eats.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pg06,


Now, you mentioned that this Bird usually used to sit puffed up or hunched up on it's perch...except when you have to catch them to give them medicine.

This DOES sound like a sick Bird according to your description.


What were you giving them medicine for? To try and treat 'what'?

What kind of medicine were you giving them? and at what dosage?

You mention "all the seed that it eats" in present time tense, so, did you remove the Seeds form their Cage or not?

What kind of 'seeds' are these?

What have you been feeding them or provideing them for them to eat?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeongirl06 (Mar 22, 2006)

this is just one bird.after we removed the seeds three days ago the hard ball in the crop got a little smaller, about the size of a quater.than yesterday morning my husband put the seeds back in the cage.

the seed mix has :safflower, barley, oats, corn, trap peas, milo.

access to water at all times.

i have already given it the pegosan pills for one day everyday for 5 days now ever since the first sign of the hard crop.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am not familiar with the pegosan pills, what are they for?
Did you take a look at the crop with the flashlight?

i would not feed him seeds under no circumstances, until you know what is wrong with his crop. You can feed him formula or baby cereal until the crop is completly empty or you have a diagnosis

Reti


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