# controlling pigeons with food



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

*Controlling pigeons with food*

I have been getting a few private messages on how I get my birds to fly and not sit on all the neighbors roof. I was thinking it might benefit our young flyers if everyone shares how they control/teach/trap their birds. 


I personally have a routine for my birds. They are fed what they can consume in about 20-30 minutes twice a day. To figure out how much food was an appropriate amount, I filled up a coffee can and dumped the entire can of food in the loft feeder. After about 20-30 minutes when only a few birds were feeding I took back all the food they did not eat, put it back in the same can and measured what was gone. The missing amount is how I judged what to feed my birds. Now when I feed my birds I have a coffee can with nails and I shake the can before I feed the birds and while I am pouring the food. Now I can just shake the can and they all fly down to the feeder and await their food.

I let my birds out to fly in the morning before I feed or in the late afternoon before their dinner meal. I always let them out on an empty stomach.

Right now I do have a few babies that are roof sitting, but this is just transitional as they are learning to fly. For now they are up there memorizing their surroundings and practicing small flights around the back yard and back to the roof or chimney, A lot of them hop to the roof, then to the chimney, look around then take flight, some look around and run right back in the loft. 

How do others work with their birds?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Trade Secrets*

Hello Zoo Keeper,

What you are asking for is a "Trade Secret" to some of us. I might give a few pointers to help a young person, but should I really post my system, that has been handed down from the last generation, refined and tested, and developed over thirty years of trial and error ? After all, those final minutes, of getting the bird into the loft, has one or lost, many a race.

At the very least, should a person not at least pay for my book, or video tape, in order to learn the methods of the masters ?  

I have discovered, that some of my racing competitors, have been secretly reading and coping some of my methods from this site, which I have openly shared, free of charge. I will be racing this year in a race, that pays $30,000 for 1st place. There are some "tricks" that just will not be shared in an open forum. Those that can, are silent and do. Those that can't, will provide all kinds of advice.  

This is a good subject, I will be interested in reading some good ideals, as I am always experimenting and attemping to improve. But, my lips are sealed.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Young birds will sit for a few days getting used to the sky. And testing there wing strengh with short lifts. Regulating feed befor flight helps fast trapping. And some people use whistles. flags. or such to control flight.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Zoo Keeper,
> 
> What you are asking for is a "Trade Secret" to some of us.


No, I was not asking that, I thought we might all have general and basic info that could benefit the young flyers on the forum. 

Tanya


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

haha warren "Listen, don't talk !"  

Elvis


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

From the time a bird is weaned it should be trained to respond to a whistle or rattle of the feed can. There is a natural tendency to overfeed our birds and it is often a fine line between too much or too little. If a pigeon has an edge on it where being hungry is concerned, you will always have control over it. With young birds, because of my schedule, they receive an early morning release and one good feeding per day. If the birds are slow to trap, I will cut back on the portion fed, as feed consumption does vary throughout the season. If your pigeons are sitting on the rooftop when they return from exercise or flying to the ground, they have developed bad habits based on overfeeding and poor management.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

SmithFamilyLofts said:


> Those that can, are silent and do. Those that can't, will provide all kinds of advice.


  



Grizzled said:


> From the time a bird is weaned it should be trained to respond to a whistle or rattle of the feed can. There is a natural tendency to overfeed our birds and it is often a fine line between too much or too little. If a pigeon has an edge on it where being hungry is concerned, you will always have control over it. With young birds, because of my schedule, they receive an early morning release and one good feeding per day. If the birds are slow to trap, I will cut back on the portion fed, as feed consumption does vary throughout the season. If your pigeons are sitting on the rooftop when they return from exercise or flying to the ground, they have developed bad habits based on overfeeding and poor management.


Grizz, Et All,

Is there any way to break delinquent, roof-sitting, ground scractin' Young Birds and whip (not litterally) them back into shape?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

weanlings will sit for say 8 to 10 days then should be jumped up to get there wings. hungry birds trained to loft for feeding time after flight will learn good trapping.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

re lee said:


> ...then should be jumped up to get there wings...


 

You mean chased off the roof and forced to go fly??


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Pigeons are creatures of habit, the younger they are are the easier they are to train and it is done through thier stomach (kinda like me LOL) You start out at weaning, they go into the weaning pen once they are pin feathered under their wings and with just a tad of down their heads, at this point they will learn that "you" are the source of their grub, at first I feed all they want, once they are all eating well after a few days I take it to twice a day, and everytime they are fed they learn to associate it with my whistle, the whistle means food !!!!! and they learn this rather quickly.

Once out I want them sitting on the loft for a few days (they go out before being fed, and from this point are fed once a day), some may do short loops and then back down, after a few days of this I might wave a flag on a pole just so that the slow ones just lift up to feel their wings, thats all I do, I don't want to scare them as they need to know that the loft roof is their "safe" place, then I open the door and whistle them in , soon they are up and on the wing, at first they will land everywhere due to inexperiance, after a few days they will be landing on the loft, at this time they are only fed once a day and they know that the whistle means it's chow time, If the dillydaddle then they are over fed, they land only on the loft because it is the quickest point to the feed tray once they land, and this becomes "habit" keep in mind that when feeding there is a difference between what they want and what they need. Adult birds need much less than young birds. 
If you feed all they want they get fat and lazy and don't want to fly much or trap. My birds only land one place and that is on the loft roof , within seconds from that point they are in the loft. I can also drop them to the loft roof by whistling much of the time. Once this becomes habit they will trap even if not hungry due to habit. But if you start over feeding the habit will be lost. Also if you have some dummys that don't get with the program they will ruin the others and give them bad habits. You can't put up with trouble makers if you expect to train your birds. Bottom line is once my birds are up and flying they are either in the air or in the loft and even thought the roof of my house is only 30 ft away they NEVER land on it, it all boils down to "habit" which is taught through the feed can , hope this helps

PS I think that it is very very important to pass on "all" that we have learned and what has been passed down to us or the pigeon sports are "doomed" , I am as competitive as they come but the fact is no matter what you pass on it still has to be put to practical use through experiance and gut instict. 
just my opinion


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Grizz, Et All,
> 
> Is there any way to break delinquent, roof-sitting, ground scractin' Young Birds and whip (not litterally) them back into shape?


Yes, it's actually not that difficult.
Lock all birds up for a 24 hour period with NO FEED, only water. On the morning of the second day, release the birds for their exercise. The odds are they won't stay up and out that long. When they land on the loft, call them in for a feeding. The ones that trap quickly should be fed, but only half a ration. The ones that fiddle about on the roof or ground should not be fed. The next morning, repeat this process, feed the ones that trap quickly a little more than half a portion, the ones that stay on the roof, receive nothing. Now before we all panic and say that this is a little hard or cruel on the birds, rest assurred that it does them no harm and is a very valuable lesson that most of them will ultimately learn. As the birds respond over the days you may increase feedings but always be observant for birds who hit the roof and are content to stay there as they are being overfed. As for stragglers who just don't care to become a part of your new system, place them up for adoption on this forum. There are many pigeon lovers who would be more than happy to give them a loving home.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:


> PS I think that it is very very important to pass on "all" that we have learned and what has been passed down to us or the pigeon sports are "doomed" , I am as competitive as they come but the fact is no matter what you pass on it still has to be put to practical use through experiance and gut instict.
> just my opinion



Nicely said Scott.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

*Tricks of the Trade*



:mad: said:


> What you are asking for is a "Trade Secret".
> At the very least, should a person not at least pay for my book, or video tape, in order to learn the methods of the masters ?
> I will be racing this year in a race, that pays $30,000 for 1st place. There are some "tricks" that just will not be shared in an open forum. Those that can, are silent and do. Those that can't, will provide all kinds of advice.
> This is a good subject, I will be interested in reading some good ideals, as I am always experimenting and attemping to improve. But, my lips are sealed.


SmithFamilyLoft

I am going to tell you flat out that what you have stated here is a flat out selfish act on your part, you are not promoting the sport but looking for personal gain for yourself. It has nothing to do with giving secrets nor does it have anything to do "Those that can't, will provide all kinds of advice", allot of the people on here are not racing pigeon people, it so happens that I am and I am appalled at your statement  , I offer advise to new flyers all the time and I don't come off so arrogant that it appears I feel I am better then everyone else, now I must wonder what your mentor would think of you after your rediculous comments. Ok lets get down to the bottom line here, first you can go to our site and see that we have won many races, you can contact members of the Puget Sound Concourse, the North Valley Invitational, the Fresno Racing Pigeon Club, North Roads Combine, Central Valley Combine and the list goes on that we have competed against and all well tell you that we are very competitive flyer and make them work for those wins, go to our site at www.relofts.com and check out some of our record. Now for the second issue here, I am Tanya's mentor, I am also the Facilitator of the Only Racing Pigeon School Project in the state of California, I also give suggestions to people over the internet on ways to assist their flying in getting their returns as well as their results improved, I also run the 911 Pigeon Alert Group with other moderators, my husband and I have just taken on another new flyer to mentor through the AU help a beginner flyer program, this is all to help our sport and give these pigeons the possibility to get home. Now you know as well as I the current Ordinance issues going on, wouldn't it be better to help teach them to trap their birds rather then start a problem in a town similar to the Chicago problem that we are currently dealing with. I personally just flat resent what you have stated on here, and I resent that you are coming across in a manner as you have on an open forum such as you have. I hope you have a heck of a race, things always come back on those that deserve them.
Ellen


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Zig, Yes on jumping them up. after 8 or 10 days. Is a must. Some would have been makeing a few short passes and back then you have some that need to be encouraged to get up . The may just hop up then down or make a loop then down. But it gets them to start testing the wings. where they will soon be up flying. Spending to much time on the board or loft. Makes them now days hawk bait. also. Some people will put there birds in a pen on the board. BUT I think if done to long then let them loose. They are stronger in the wing. And may fly out then set and get lost. So I used to practice letting them sit in the open. Up to 8 to 10 days. Any birds that did not by that time get up a little I jumped them up . Worked for me.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> You mean chased off the roof and forced to go fly??


Zig,

Yes you may need to flag them up, they should after the first time or two do it on their own, there will come a time when you may have to flag them longer to get them to exercise depending on your birds and their traits, but for now that would be good.

Ellen


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Motherlodelofts said:


> PS I think that it is very very important to pass on "all" that we have learned and what has been passed down to us or the pigeon sports are "doomed" , I am as competitive as they come but the fact is no matter what you pass on it still has to be put to practical use through experiance and gut instict.
> just my opinion


Motherlodelofts 

Thank you, I appreciate all you are doing to support our sport, you are a very kind and considerate person and I am sure a wonderful mentor to new flyers.

Ellen


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I have to agree with Warren.
Breeding pigeons for sport is a business as a matter a fact its a BIG business theres races from 1k-1million. A huge part of quality birds is the training... if they are not trained they most likely will not do good in races. Oviously if you have a quality bird that increases the chances of winning. For example if you work really hard to win a race , and then someone asks how you did it, you wont say how you did it becasue he just gained all the knowledge you spent hours gaining. I have never met many pigeon fanciers that openly discuss they're secrets. And pigeon fanciers 1 after another will always tell you "listen , rather than talk" and i belive its a key to success.

Warren also does help beginners , as i have recieved help from him but i completely understand why he wouldnt give away secrets his family has kept for years just like that. So technically that doesnt make him selfish...if he was selfish he wouldnt offer any help what so ever. 
As i am a beginner i like getting help from all people even if its not a big secret lol.

Elvis


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

by the way ellen, your loft very attractive.  

Do you live in a crowded neighbourhood as well?


Elvis


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

elvis_911 said:


> I have to agree with Warren.
> Breeding pigeons for sport is a business as a matter a fact its a BIG business theres races from 1k-1million. A huge part of quality birds is the training... if they are not trained they most likely will not do good in races. Oviously if you have a quality bird that increases the chances of winning. For example if you work really hard to win a race , and then someone asks how you did it, you wont say how you did it becasue he just gained all the knowledge you spent hours gaining. I have never met many pigeon fanciers that openly discuss they're secrets. And pigeon fanciers 1 after another will always tell you "listen , rather than talk" and i belive its a key to success.
> 
> Warren also does help beginners , as i have recieved help from him but i completely understand why he wouldnt give away secrets his family has kept for years just like that. So technically that doesnt make him selfish...if he was selfish he wouldnt offer any help what so ever.
> ...


Elvis,

I think that Warren can take care of himself, when I started I had the President of the American Racing Pigeon Union, amongst other's assisting me, he was a top judge, top breeder, and had one of the top lofts there was which is still under existance, he told me allot of his theories, and in doing so I started my first season with 5 first place wins, including our first race win was also a concourse win. In order to help our sport we need to give pointers to new flyers as well as information to assist them in what ever their needs may be to be successful in the sport, if they aren't successful the will not enjoy the sport and will soon leave, that doesn't mean you will win ever week but it does mean doing everything you can to get them in the top. Now let's get back to what this topic started over to encourage such a post, it was only over trapping young birds in, now this is a simple topic which should not have been any big deal, the comments didn't need to be made, now if someone asked for his secrets on how he is condition his birds to get them into form and what his technic is I could see him with holding some information, it just didn't need to be stated in the manner it was done.

Ellen


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

elvis_911 said:


> by the way ellen, your loft very attractive.
> 
> Do you live in a crowded neighbourhood as well?
> 
> ...


Elvis,

Yes there are neighbors all the way around us, my neighbors enjoy my birds flying, my birds are not allowed to sit around by means of good trapping, and feeding technicues as well as the use of droppers that they are trained to during racing. I am lucky as I live in the middle of town but I am on a county island so I have no ordinance issues and am avoiding being a nuisence to my neighbors, and I don't plan on annoying my neighbors with my birds anyway. The best way to teach your birds to trap is start at weaning using a settling cage to teach them to trap through the bobs, once they are not afraid to trap which they will do for thier for the feedings then the settling cage is removed, they will then start to go to the top of the loft, then they may spend a couple of days just bouncing around but they are soon to be airborn and this is always done on an empty crop so that when they are done they go back into their loft where the one way bobs will only allow them to go in and not come back out with a full crop and sit arround as there is no incentive to return to loft once they are full until dark, which is when it is time to sleep. Our birds are started out being released only 2 hours to 3 hours before dark so that if they do not want to trap for some reason even though they are fed at the same time every night, they will once it get's dark, they are also fed to a shaking of the can and a whistle so they know this means it is food time, should there be a stuborn one it will definately go in if it starts to get dark, this eliminates the birds not going in, we also stay out and observe our birds the entire time they are out until the last bird is through the trap and closed in their section. There is no guarentee on any system but it has worked for us.

Ellen


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Elvis I'll let you in on a secret .............................................. there are no secrets  There is only information or lack of 

It is about knowing the birds and hard work. And with my breed luck also needs to be thrown in the mix. Here is an example , year before last I won the Calif. State fly, Elvis I could have given that same team to a inexperianced flier with everything writen down that I could think of on the mechanics of managing that same team and they would be lucky to win a local fly with them, what I'm getting at is there is no easy road no matter what information you are fed, it just isn't that easy.
Like I said earlier it's about hard work and knowing the birds and that all come's in it's own time, If you help someone out with advice they still have to learn how to apply it, I will help anyone I can with birds and what I know to get the most out of them, if they start beating me well then I better try harder LOL which in turn moves me forward further, competion is good that way. 
I just got of the phone with a new flier that I helped out with a team of birds here a couple of mo. ago, he was so excited I could hardly understand him LOL says they are "rocking" (Birmingham Rollers), The World cup fly is starting and we have a new flier fired up CHA CHING , that is a huge part of the enjoyment of the sport for me  .


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Ellen good point about the time of day , I allways use the evenings to get youngsters up and going on their maiden flights. Once the sun starts setting they get a little more anxious to make it onto the loft. Plus I'm able to keep a close eye on them while I am piddling around the loft.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I too have been letting my birds out in the afternoon, usually around 4 PM. It seems to keep them from goofing off. They go fly then when it is about dark they trap back in and get their last meal for the day. It seems to be working well.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Once my birds are flying and trapping I fly a couple of teams in the morning before work and a couple of teams in the late afternoon , flytime is determined by thier feeding time's. They know the drill at this point.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

The major problem I have at this time (well it is not a problem, just an inconvenience) is I am putting new birds out to the loft each week, so I have babies from 3 months all the way down to 4 weeks in my loft. I have this continual weaning process going on. I am about done with breeding and will be so happy to have all the birds there and let them all get caught up to the older baby birds. It will make it much easier. Makes it bit difficult on the flagging, I dont want to spook a new baby in the loft. I should have all the new babies out in about 3-4 weeks.  I dont like to hold back the food on babies that are weaning, but I would like to be holding the food on the birds that are now flying ... such a dilemma.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Great! =\ mind helping me ?  

Anyways should i be starting my stravation when they are soon starting to feed babies dont they need extra food???  


Elvis


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

elvis_911 said:


> Great! mind helping me
> 
> Anyways should i be starting my stravation when they are soon starting to feed babies dont they need extra food???
> 
> ...


Elvis,

Absolutely not, if they are feeding youngsters they should be getting enough food to produce your quality young birds. We are talking about training young birds, not old birds, they should have already been trained on trapping. Now if you are saying that you are flying your old birds and they are feeding young then I don't and would not advise doing this what so ever.

I am going to figure from your statement but I may have misunderstood it that your old birds are feeding young and flying and having a trapping problem, if this is the case then let them out early in the morning prior to the morning feeding, have them come into the loft to feed, now I normally do not see both parents leaving the nest at one time, so when you open the loft and the mate goes out feed. Now if you are telling me that your race birds that you plan on flying are feeding youngsters and you are trying to get them trained to compete, I certainly hope that you don't plan on competing them in the near future, for one in my opinion you are not going to be able to bring your birds into condition while they are feeding young, it takes allot out of the parents to feed their young, for another one round early in the year can work but you want to allow for time for the parents to come out of caring for the youngsters, for another if you are flying them to the young you are risking loosing a parent in competion not to mention that this parent that is flying has been depleted of nutrition that it has been feeding the young, for another if you raise more then one round out of a race bird then you are chancing throwing them into an early molt which will cause problems. Well anyway I am really not sure what you meant by this so I will let you go on from here.

Ellen


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Okay ill train them when they dont have babies.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

elvis_911 said:


> I have to agree with Warren.
> Breeding pigeons for sport is a business as a matter a fact its a BIG business theres races from 1k-1million. A huge part of quality birds is the training... if they are not trained they most likely will not do good in races. Oviously if you have a quality bird that increases the chances of winning. For example if you work really hard to win a race , and then someone asks how you did it, you wont say how you did it becasue he just gained all the knowledge you spent hours gaining. I have never met many pigeon fanciers that openly discuss they're secrets. And pigeon fanciers 1 after another will always tell you "listen , rather than talk" and i belive its a key to success.
> 
> Warren also does help beginners , as i have recieved help from him but i completely understand why he wouldnt give away secrets his family has kept for years just like that. So technically that doesnt make him selfish...if he was selfish he wouldnt offer any help what so ever.
> ...



Thank you Elvis, for coming to my defense. 

I am afraid however, that my cryptic attempt at some humor, at myself, and the racing "industry", was misunderstood. If you missed the little  , I do not offer any books or video tapes, I do not grade pigeons for money, and I do not maintain a fancy web site, in order to sell pigeons. I do not sell pigeon supplies, or sell any pigeon magazines.

The pigeon racing "industry" has already become a sport for "rich", old, and primarily "white" guys. In many clubs around the country, the first thing some people want to do, is sell them a bunch of expensive junk, and fill their heads with utter nonsense. 

True "Sportsmen" are few and far between. It's becoming "all about the money". Right, wrong, good or bad, those are the "facts" as I see them. There is a wealth of information out there, and on this site. Some is good, some not so good. All the information and knowledge in the world, is of little value, unless a person has the brain and the desire to put it to good use.

That brings me to another cryptic ideal, rather then supply one answer after another to a person wanting to learn about our sport, or anything else for that matter, why not have them state the situation, suggest some reasons, and think the problem through to a solution ?

Situation = pigeons sit on roof, and do not trap
Possible reasons = it's nice outside, no compelling reason to go inside
Solution = create a compelling reason to go inside
Method = withhold feed so they are hungry , put them out before dark

Ellen, I confess, my teaching methods, used on the people I "coach", may not be well suited for this forum. My intention was honorable, my particular method, as employed in my post, may not have worked very well. My desire was to stimulate a thinking process. Not everyone will have the advantage of an AU President providing all the answers to all their questions. Or benefit from a mentor, as I enjoyed.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Thank you Elvis, for coming to my defense.
> I am afraid however, that my cryptic attempt at some humor, at myself, and the racing "industry", was misunderstood. If you missed the little  , I do not offer any books or video tapes, I do not grade pigeons for money, and I do not maintain a fancy web site, in order to sell pigeons. I do not sell pigeon supplies, or sell any pigeon magazines.


Warren,

I did miss any attempt on your part at making it a joke, I appologize if I mistook your message, it is just to often as I am sure you are aware that this is a common happening amongst some that think they have a secret at a cost to other's, in my opinion it is only a way to take advantage of some new flyers and then frustrate the new flyers to where they no longer want to be a part of our great sport. The bigest secret of all is just knowing your birds, spending the countless hours observing them, understanding them, and understanding the nutritional needs that they have and what makes them tick, what you want them to do under performance and feeding to acchieve that goal, understanding health and cleanliness of your loft for the best condition, it all goes together to make a successful team of birds.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The pigeon racing "industry" has already become a sport for "rich", old, and primarily "white" guys. In many clubs around the country, the first thing some people want to do, is sell them a bunch of expensive junk, and fill their heads with utter nonsense..


It is not all for rich, it is just as rich in the injoyment you can receive from your birds when properly cared for. An expensive bird can be out performed by a less expensive bird when properly handled by the keeper. Oh and by the way I am not rich, old, or a white guy so I would say that is a little wrong, and the school project that I am doing also doesn't fit into that catagory as well as most of the competitors that fly in our combine around here.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> True "Sportsmen" are few and far between. It's becoming "all about the money". Right, wrong, good or bad, those are the "facts" as I see them. There is a wealth of information out there, and on this site. Some is good, some not so good. All the information and knowledge in the world, is of little value, unless a person has the brain and the desire to put it to good use..


You are correct "Sportsmen" are few and far between, but with awareness by those of who want to make a difference maybe we can make a change in our wonderful sport. It is not all about money as I can guarentee you I have put countless dollars out to purchase some of the best and they all seem to work together as a team with the birds that were gifted to me, it is all about the handling, and yes the person that is handling their flock will need to have some animal senses in order to be successful.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Ellen, I confess, my teaching methods, used on the people I "coach", may not be well suited for this forum. My intention was honorable, my particular method, as employed in my post, may not have worked very well. My desire was to stimulate a thinking process. Not everyone will have the advantage of an AU President providing all the answers to all their questions. Or benefit from a mentor, as I enjoyed.


Yes your teaching methods are far different then mine, I have the persons monitor, report, give me what they think and then I advise. I am sure you are honorable in what you are doing. I was very lucky to have many mentors to assist us when we started and I can only hope to pass some of what I know on to other new flyers to help them enjoy the sport that I know of it, and I have learned you must also teach new flyers pigeon politics as well to make it in our community of pigeon fanciers.

Ellen


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

elvis_911 said:


> Great! =\ mind helping me ?
> 
> Anyways should i be starting my stravation when they are soon starting to feed babies dont they need extra food???
> 
> ...


Nobody is suggesting starving your birds to bring them under control. As Ellen stated, we are referring to young birds; how to train through feed control.
Old birds that are feeding young are a completely different story. They must always have access to feed and generally they don't spend that much time outside while raising youngsters. Old birds will hit the ground while feeding, searching for various nutrients(minerals)which they tend to crave at this time. Be certain to provide a good quality grit, with minerals etc. inside the loft.
I always have feed in front of my breeders, 24-7 and have no difficulties with old birds trapping back inside after exercise. Their motivation is nest, mate, youngsters. If your old birds have a tendency not to trap, cut the feed supply off after the evening feeding, release for exercise early in the morning and call them in for feeding when they return.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Im didnt mean "starving" literally lol im not THAT cruel. I simply meant that i wanted them to be hungry when leaving the loft otherwises they set up tents on my roof and roast marshmellows!  

I've already been helped with this issue and i start my plan today so ill see how it goes.  


Elvis


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Okay so i checked yesterday afternoon only 1 egg is fertile  its like really dark and and much less "liquidy" and the other is like pink and "liquidy" when exposed to light. This means only 1 baby can work at this point. Can i begin training now, ill have enough time becasue they're egg doesnt hatch in 8-10 days  . Even though only 1 bird my leave the nest at a time i can still train them.
These birds are YB's not Oldbirds its they're first time hatching.  

grizzland are you from albertaclassic.com?? just a familiar nick i remeber. 


Elvis


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

No I'm not from the Alberta Site, although I have visited it once or twice.
Do you mind me asking you Elvis, how many pairs of old birds are you breeding from and is this your first season flying birds?
If so, you may want to consider starting with young birds.
It's a good way to gain experience without the complications of timing old birds for breeding, flying, flying to nest etc.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Demographics*

"It is not all for rich, it is just as rich in the injoyment you can receive from your birds when properly cared for. An expensive bird can be out performed by a less expensive bird when properly handled by the keeper. Oh and by the way I am not rich, old, or a white guy so I would say that is a little wrong, and the school project that I am doing also doesn't fit into that catagory as well as most of the competitors that fly in our combine around here."

Ellen,

I suggest that we agree on more then we disagree on.

The one area, I might disagree with, is your assessment of the demographics of our racing pigeon sport. Perhaps you are in an area, that has clubs which are representative of the population as a whole. I know that in my part of the woods, women are no where near even 2% of our memberships. Those that are, are most likely partners with their husbands. The same goes for various ethnic groups. The ages are also above anything related to the national average. And lastly, the economics of pigeon racing has changed radically from thirty years ago. The term "rich" is a relative term I realize. I am only going on what some of our older members on social security are telling me. Even on a small scale, the price of feed, dues, shipping costs, a pigeon clock, expense of transporting for training tosses, the constuction of a loft, etc. 
This is not a sport you can compete in, on a $10 a week allowance. In my neighborhood, the intial start up costs of a $1000 + is for the rich folks. So if you have a lot of sucessful fanciers where you live, with a family, making $7 an hour, then my hat is off to you. In my combine, there are many top lofts, that must be in the $20,000+ area. Compared to the day, when kids flew out of tobacco boxes with a few pairs, this is "Big Business".

Now back to feeding for control. As far as I know, feed is the only real control we have. Overfed birds, will get into all kinds of trouble, health and otherwise. Keep them lean, and always ready to eat.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

i have only 2 pairs i got in august and this is they're first batches of eggs. 

2nests...

4eggs..

4birds..


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## Grizzled (Oct 21, 2004)

I'm not clear on what you would like to do; train your birds to race or just train them for the fun of it, to watch them come home. You may want to consider, depending on your setup, space, time etc., raising several rounds from these 2 pair, settle them and train them out if you wish. I would look toward creating stock for next season if you plan on racing as you will have quite a small team this year and it may not be worth your while to invest in all the various costs involved with racing at this time. You could always purchase a kit or two of young birds from a fellow flyer, which you could add to your little team, train them up with the intention of breeding/flying them next season. Good luck with whatever you end up doing.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The one area, I might disagree with, is your assessment of the demographics of our racing pigeon sport. Perhaps you are in an area that has clubs which are representative of the population as a whole. I know that in my part of the woods, women are no where near even 2% of our memberships. Those that are, are most likely partners with their husbands. The same goes for various ethnic groups.


Yes, Warren while I am sure the average per ratio is much slimmer for women as the sport was known for a long time as a man's sport as was voting, working outside the home, riding motorcycles, being in larger executive positions but the times are changing, currently we have quite a few women either beginning to fly or already flying in our sport. Yes there are allot of partner lofts with a spouse or significant other as my husband and I are a team, although he travels frequently so that leaves me to manage the teams, so I do the training, feeding, condition, cleaning etc.. But I am as much involved as he or any other male in this sport, the school project has just as many females as males in it currently, and I am mentoring Tanya and her daughters also which will begin flying in the near future. I also receive calls from females that are interested in flying but have not done so due to the thought of it being a male dominant sport and now with the awareness there are more interested with plans to start in the future since they have learned of the many females already flying in our sport, the problem will be can the male ego take it.  

As far as ethnic groups, the majority of our members I would not say were white but of all races remember we are in California the land of sunshine and beaches, besides I Actually figure we are all mutts anyway at this point, not that I can see why it matters, race has nothing to do with wealth or poverty.  



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The ages are also above anything related to the national average.


Yes the old timers have been around along time, but you know on a national average people are just living longer, don't you think that is great they have so much to pass on to the youth. In our local area we are not that fortunate though, we have 3 members out of 40 approximately that are of age to draw social security, we have 12 approximately that are under 18, and the remaining fit in between, I am working on getting a couple of old timers to start flying again I hope in the near future, these are all approximate numbers though but close.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And lastly, the economics of pigeon racing has changed radically from thirty years ago. The term "rich" is a relative term I realize. I am only going on what some of our older members on social security are telling me. Even on a small scale, the price of feed, dues, shipping costs, a pigeon clock, expense of transporting for training tosses, the construction of a loft, etc. This is not a sport you can compete in, on a $10 a week allowance. In my neighborhood, the initial start up costs of a $1000 + is for the rich folks.


The costs for the setup is not reasonable you are correct, but the clubs can help with some of these startup costs with local fundraisers, one loft races are a great way to start up a fund with a percentage going to a help a beginner startup. Here are some suggestions for you that work well.

1. Each Club member donates 2 birds to new flyer.
2. Club purchases clocks that are to be loaned or setup on a layaway plan for the beginner via contract of course with funds they have made via auction of one bird per member, one loft race, barbeque fund raiser or what ever you all decide on.
3. Have club members donate unused feeders, waters, crates etc. for the startup of new flyers.
4. Have club members donate vitamins, medications for new flyers of their excess.
5. Reduce club dues for new flyers for one year, it is better to get a new flyer started and assist with the costs later then carry the costs amongst fewer flyers.
6. Lower the cost of shipping for the first year, again this will pay off in the end.
7. Assist with the training of the new flyers birds, the old timers have to train their birds anyway so what is it for a couple extra to ride a long. 
8. Have a club member mentor/sponsor your new flyers and give the club updates of what the needs are of the new flyers so all of the members can be involved.

Currently one of the clubs we are flying with loans all new flyers clocks, no cost for shipping or dues for junior flyers, and the training is no cost for juniors, there are many ways to assist with the costs of startup.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> So if you have a lot of successful fanciers where you live, with a family, making $7 an hour, then my hat is off to you. In my combine, there are many top lofts, that must be in the $20,000+ area. Compared to the day, when kids flew out of tobacco boxes with a few pairs, this is "Big Business".


In our area we have a lot of flyers that might not be able to afford such a terrific sport if it were not for the generous members in our area, and yes there are kids that fly that would not be able to if it were not for the generosity of these same fanciers as well as supply house and other's that contribute to help out, our sport is very lucky to have many people that will help when asked, they just need to be asked we can't assume they know what the needs are of everyone.



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Now back to feeding for control. As far as I know, feed is the only real control we have. Overfed birds, will get into all kinds of trouble, health and otherwise. Keep them lean, and always ready to eat.


Feed is the major contributor, then there is stimulation as they get older, but that will be for another time beyond young birds.

Ellen


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

relofts said:


> and I am mentoring Tanya and her daughters also which will begin flying in the near future. I also receive calls from females that are interested in flying but have not done so due to the thought of it being a male dominant sport and now with the awareness there are more interested with plans to start in the future since they have learned of the many females already flying in our sport, the problem will be can the male ego take it.



This is for sure a predominately male sport ... I have learned that first hand already. Actually I am the only lady flyer in my club. They dont give me the time of day. All the guys in the club look right through me for the most part. This fall I think they will be taking a closer look, that is for sure. I am learning so much from Ellen and I can already see I have some awesome birds that are going to be great flyers. I think they will be amazed at what a lady flyer can and will do.  Somehow I think they are going to be asking just where the heck Heather and I came from.   I think they will find their male egos are not what makes a good flyer.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Our club is 250$ to join.

you need a clock 300-500$

and 50$ to join the Canadian Pigeon Fanciers Asosciation...or something like that.
a loft 500-1000$ (basic but good)

The club does offer old or used lofts for free though.

Lots of nice people but lots of people dont give away they're "prescious" birds away.

Meds...you can borrow/get for free

I'd say it costs more than most kids afford , my parents didnt help much with the costs but i work  

Elvis


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Elvis,

How old are your birds? Have you had them since they were babies? I see you got them last August ... I was asking because if these are older birds, you might do better to start with the babies when they hatch and are weaned.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Elvis / Tanya
I think that once they learn whether you are serious or not you will see attidudes changing. Once I see that a new flier is getting very serious then I start getting serious with them. So many just come and go.
The cream of my birds never go to a new flier until I "know" that they won't be wasted. Once they show us a little something we'll set them up with birds and have them flying in short order, the longer they stick the better the birds that we will "gift" them. Some new fliers pan out and some don't.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

They're 2 jansens , i got them for 600$ as the pair from belgium ... and the other 2 are for free b but i dont know what lines they are although they are Racers. I wont be racing this season although im entering the first youngster into a 1 loft race just for the fun of it. I am intersted in training them for the next racing season...but ill just use these adults to reproduce and just train the YB's. I expect to have at least 10-15 by next year if i decide to breed them through winter.  

yes i have had them since babies as 3 weeks old from a farm.  

Elvis


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Elvis,

You are a very special young man, I wish you the absolute best in the sport of racing pigeons, I will have to see in my book of contacts if there might be someone that I can track down to give you a little helping hand.

I feel bad that the club is charging so much for you, this is a hard hobby to work on keeping going I wish the dues were more affordable and there were more generous people in your area, but again I will see what I can track down to get a little more help with birds if you would like.

Ellen


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

Yes luckily my parents are friends with a pigeon breeder so i got it np.


Elvis


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Elvis, that is great that your parent are friends with a pigeon breeder I hope he sets you up with some really good racers, they are allot of fun to have and watch them fly. Take your time and enjoy them, get to know them and the way they act, you will do great when you are ready.

Ellen


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

zoo keeper said:


> This is for sure a predominately male sport ... I have learned that first hand already. Actually I am the only lady flyer in my club. They dont give me the time of day. All the guys in the club look right through me for the most part. This fall I think they will be taking a closer look, that is for sure. I am learning so much from Ellen and I can already see I have some awesome birds that are going to be great flyers. I think they will be amazed at what a lady flyer can and will do.  Somehow I think they are going to be asking just where the heck Heather and I came from.  I think they will find their male egos are not what makes a good flyer.


 ZooKeeper,

I only hope, I live to see the day, when a woman wins some big important race ! The future of our sport depends on attracting all kinds of nontradional members. I can see from some of these posts, that Women, are going to be a force to reckoned with, some day !!

Now, as far as male ego, what is that ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Ellen,

I liked your list so much, I opened a new thread under promoting our sport. Perhaps the reason why our sport has been so disorganized, is it has been primarly run by men.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks Warren,

I will let Tanya take it from here.

 

Ellen


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