# Feral With Probable Broken Leg!!!! Help!!!!



## xxmoxiexx

i caught a feral that could onl;y walk on one leg, like hop, didnt even use hurt leg to limp on which i havent seen before, couldnt get to food before other birds so i have him here now. is there anything i can do on a very very limited budget to help him??? i will try to get and post pics later if my camera is working, but is there anyway you all can tell me what pics to take and of what???

THANKS!!! I NEED HELP ASAP!!!


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## Feefo

It could be broken, sprained or bruised.

For the time being just keep it warm and quiet. Don't give it painkillers.

Was the hurt leg held up from the ground or does it dangle?

Can you check whether there is grip in the toes? Is the foot warm?

If you run your fingers down the injured legs and then down the healthy one can you feel any difference?

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Well, first of all, feel the leg and compare the joints of the bad leg to the good leg. They can get an arthritic condition from Paratyphoid (or E. coli, or Streptococcus, or... ) that can have them limping around without it even being broke or otherwise hurt. 

If there's no joint swelling, then you might have a real injury to contend with. You may or may not be able to find a break. Sometimes, it's very difficult to find them. You can try to settle the bird into a towel donut with food and water close at hand. They can sometimes learn to accept your help and just sit there and heal. Sometimes they can't. Anyhow, there are ultra-cheap methods for securing a broken leg with 2" wide masking tape and I'll go fetch a link for that and post it in a follow-up.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Read this one and look at the pictures:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13878

Pidgey


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## Guest

You can set the leg very inexpensively but first, you have to look over the entire leg from top to bottom in order to make sure this isn't a compound fracture (one where the bone protrudes from the skin).

If there is no compound fracture, even if the leg isn't broken, it can be supported by a splint while it heals.

If you have any tape, then tape the highest point on the leg, not tightly, just snugly. Then, wrap a layer of tape around the middle of the leg (the joint). Lastly, wrap a piece of tape around the base of the leg just above the foot.

Straighten out a paper clip with pliers and cut off everything except the straight piece of wire. Make sure that what you have left is straight. Measure the wire by lining it up with the leg. so that it doesn't go above the highest point of the tape on top and the lowest point of the tape on bottom and cut off any excess.

If you consider that an outstretched leg is equal to 180 degrees, make a small bend in the wire where it will lay up against the middle joint. Make the bend no more than 160 degrees. You don't want a straight splint but want a very slightly bent one. 

Wrap the wire in tape on the top and on the bottom to make sure the end of the wire doesn't penetrate into the skin and then lay the wire on the leg in a straight line. Use the inside of the thigh as a guide. First tape the wire in the middle over the tape that's in the middle of the leg to make sure the wire lines up straight. Then, when you have determined that the wire is laying straight, tape it to the top of the thigh where the tape there is. Then, tape the wire to the bottom of the leg where the tape there is located.

As you tape the wire to the leg, use your finger nail to press in on both sides of the wire to make sure it stays put. 

Never tape a leg tightly to endanger circulation from being cut off but instead, make it snug enough so it doesn't move.

If this is a young bird that is still growing, You nave to loosen the tape once a week to allow for bone growth. If this is an adult, you don't have to watch out for that.

Keep checking the position of the wire daily to make sure it hasn't slipped and keep the splint on for three weeks.

Three days ago, I picked up an adult with a broken left leg and did the exact same thing except that instead of using a paper clip, I use electrical wire that is stiff enough for me to be able to bend but which the bird can't. There are other ways to splint a leg, one of them being to wrap it in vet wrap enough times to prevent any movement while the break heals but this is probably the easiest and least expensive way to do it.

How do you know the break is in alignment? Before you start using tape, you pinch the bone all the way down with two fingers, in order to align it. Do this from top to bottom along the two sides and then from top to bottom from the top of the thigh to the bottom of the leg. Without an X-Ray, this is the only way to try to align the bones.


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## xxmoxiexx

*ok, im back and i looked....*

...at leg as you suggested. first off, he has been sitting in the water i gave him all day, so when i took him out he was soaked and when looking underneath him i noticed he has no feathers along his breast bone, totally bald. is that normal?? i know the big fethers that would usually COVER over it (cover, not grow, over breast bone) are wet , but i wasnt sure if he's supposed to have fluff there.
i am loading pics now, will post in a few minutes.....

so, i looked at leg, his good leg, right leg, seems to have a tiny bump on the joint directly above his foot, that the bad one doesnt have, which doesnt make sense, right?? but his bad leg, isnt cold, he doesnt grip with it when i am touchy feely on it, and i couldnt feel a discernible difference, until i started to follow the leg above the feather line, the thigh i suppose, and there is a joint that feels bigger in the bad one.

pidgey, i know you always post a link to the pigeon skeletal system, could you post that for me???

i'll go google it anyhow, and post the pics and be right back.....


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## Pidgey

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

You might need to start this bird on Baytril. It's possible that he's been this way for awhile and has rubbed the feathers off his chest. Remind me what meds you have from the care packages that you got.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, i have flagyl, then you sent me a small glass vial of powdery yellow stuff, and another small glass vial of pills that are kinda creamy color, fit into the glass vial perfect (a glass vial with a cork lid that you also sent some silicone in ),, the vial is a tiny bit wider than the pills, and one side of pill is smooth, other side has one line through middle for easy breaking in half. if you still cant figure what pills they are i can post a pic???

i'm posting pics of bird here, you can see in some of the pics on his right leg, the joint right above his foot has a small bump on the underside of leg, or the back side of leg that would be facing his rear end if he was standing.

http://www.msnusers.com/pigeonbrokenleg/shoebox.msnw?albumlist=2

go to this address, i'm having trouble posting pics on here


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## xxmoxiexx

pidgey, i guess it would be around the patella and cnemial crest that seems swollen, not sure if im guessing right, will check again later.


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## Pidgey

Get a magnifying glass and see if there's any writing on the pills. If not, then a picture will have to do. Take a picture of all of it. I sent you a PM telling about that and Reti sent you some stuff, too.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Is there enough of that food left (the good seed) to tide him over for awhile and what do his poops look like?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

When they get an arthritic infection, it's pretty painful and they don't like to move the affected limb much at all. There's usually an overproduction of synovial fluid which is essentially joint lubricant. It's the inflammatory response to the pain in a joint. So, it makes a serious swelling at the site. It's not usually completely hard like the bone of an unaffected joint feels like--it's somewhat softer but still substantial instead of being completely watery. If that's the case, then you're definitely going to need some antibiotics to fight it.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

yes, i have enough food to last for a few days to a week i'd guess. you know, i tried to find pigeon seed a while back and they dont have that or dove seed around here anywhere. his poops look like white with a little green on top and a little of just green poo, grass green to sometimes more dark forest green. i have real good eyes and there isnt writing on the pills.
what did you think of the pics???
i'll take pic of pill and post it....


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## xxmoxiexx

i didnt get any new PM's


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## xxmoxiexx

you know, i MIGHT be able to get the baytril if there is a human use that my friend can call in for me... (he's a pharmacist, and did it for me for flagyl way back when)... that is if he can do it, i can find out for sure tomorrow..
but he cant call it in if it's only for animals, birds etc....


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## Pidgey

Oh, well, in that case, you just need a ciprofloxacin caplet or two, depending on which size you get. Cipro is the human variety and is supposed to be easier on the stomach. Generally with a tablet, you have to do some more work to get it mixed up and I don't do that--there are other folks on here more used to dealing with those. I'll either get one of them on here to explain or will find a past post that does.

I didn't send you a PM this time about that--I was referring to the PM that I probably sent way back then telling about what I sent.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Click the link and read the instructions:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=173779&highlight=cipro#post173779

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Post poop pics, while you're at it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

By the way, I couldn't tell much about the leg from the pictures. That doesn't work very often. If it's correct that the swelling is up where the true thigh meets the shin, a picture's not going to be of much use given that the feathers will hide everything.

Is the bird eating and drinking at this point or is he still in shock from being captured? I don't like hearing that there's a bunch of white with a little green--that often means that they're dehydrated and are putting out too many urates. Sure would be good to know that the bird's getting enough water one way or another.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

here's the PM you sent, which is good because the pics of pills were BAD!!! 

There are other things in the box including real bird seed (being optimistic here), a vial of Surgilube for the syringe (they eventually get sticky and you have to lube them with silicon lubricants--just use a tiny bit on a Q-tip on the rubber stopper), a vial of Enrofloxacin pills (don't use unless told to--then it'd be 1/2 pill, twice daily), a tube of eye ointment (you can use that now), some other sized syringes (just in case), a vial of Medistatin (in case of crop stasis) 

i have to send you the poo pics tomorrow, my batteries died, or camera....

let me know if this is the right meds......

he's not eating or drinking, i tried to tube feed him a little, but i have to go on a search for a new syringe tomorrow, that one has swelled too much from me using the oil before.


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## Pidgey

Was there a 1 milliliter syringe? I'd feel a lot better if you'd just use that a few times and get 10 cc's of water in him if nothing else. You can dribble it in on the beak if nothing else.

The Enrofloxacin is the right stuff. Those are 7.5 milligram pills. How many are there? I'm fairly certain that there aren't enough there for a full course for a bird with Paratyphoid, by the way. If the bird weighed 300 grams, then the dose would be... depending on the formulary you use... maybe 4.5 milligrams twice a day for a month.

Pidgey


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## Guest

xxmoxiexx,

Please don't ever place a bird on its back for any reason. Fluid from the crop can come back up and go down the trachea effectively causing death by aspiration. Always angle the body upwards.

Can you take a couple of shots of this bird right side up so we can see how the leg lies in that position? I think the left leg is the one involved.

You can start an antibiotic to cut down on the inflammatory process and prevent a bone infection.

Can you stretch the bad leg out and see if the bird can bring it back and let us know if he can contract it?

Can you please look all over the base of the thigh and check for any lacerations on the body itself that may be covered by feathers? I don't know if I'm seeing the pink of the thigh or something else.

Thanks.


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, i have to leave for a little while, i will be back...
what antibiotics???


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## Pidgey

You can use the Enrofloxacin pills. Let's go for one a day for the moment. How many are there?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

See if you can get a Cipro from your friend, today. How long are you going to be gone?

Pidgey


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## Guest

I'm going to give this one more shot and then I'm going off. I don't care if the leg is broken or not, it has to be stabilized. The longer it is left to swell, the more danger there is that there will be nerve damage and that it won't heal in the correct position leaving the bird a cripple for the rest of its life. I can't believe that the only discussion that is going on here is about pills while the leg is being left alone and nothing is being done to reduce the trauma to the tissue and bone. There are times we have to manually intervene with the bones if we want to see a good outcome. Pills don't cure everything and an antibiotic is probably optional in this case.
Good luck everyone.
7


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## xxmoxiexx

pidgey, i have 7 pills. you're sure they are the right ones? let me know how to give it to him.

pigeonperson, i'm sorry, i thought since it MIGHT not be a break not to set it. i will set it as you suggested at first. i will get more pics. i didnt know not to put bird upside down. how would i get pics of underneath if i cant put him upside down?? also, what antibiotics should i get?? i need to know the human form to get or i cant get it.......

also, pidgey, how much cipro should i get, mg and quantity??? also, pidgey, when lookin at the pics, did you notice a bump on his good leg i posted about before?? is that something to be concerned about???

i will be back in a few hours.....

you guys rock!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pidgey

I've known a few racers (the people who own the homer lofts and race them) whose method of healing broken legs is to keep some food and water on the floor and let the birds heal on their own. That said, I don't usually do that. I also don't splint the legs if it's not obvious that they're broken. Sometimes a bird will stay down in a towel donut if you clean them up a few times a day and keep water and food within reach. I've done a few like that and I've splinted a few with masking tape like is shown in the vet books (linked in this thread in an earlier post, and that my vet showed me). I've also watched birds in my local flock that I couldn't catch heal all the way of their own accord. To my way of thinking, if a bird has a leg that's dangling at an unnatural angle, it really needs immobilization in the worst way. If it's not, like it or not, they will heal on their own, with or without us in most cases. An improperly applied splint that doesn't actually immobilize the break can cause a non-union, according to the vet. If this one is hurt up in the true knee instead of the lower leg, it's a bit tougher to restrain. If it's inflammation due to disease, he might even need to work the joint to keep it from freezing up.

If those pills you're talking about are very flat, with a beveled edge and only the one break mark on one side, then they are Enrofloxacin 7.5 milligrams. Don't know the weight of the bird but you can give one pill a day just by opening its beak and putting it towards the back for him to swallow.

About the Cipro--go back and read the post that I linked where Jazaroo is explaining about using Cipro.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Hi xxmoxiexx,

If you could get two 500 caplets of Cipro, this would be enough to give treatment for anywhere from 50-70+ days, depending on the weight of the bird, when mixed into a suspension.

I hope this helps a bit,

Ron


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## Guest

I couldn't disagree with this more. What happens if a bone is not aligned properly? The idea is to reduce calcification to the greatest extent possible. If the bone is not aligned properly, there will be much more calcification and what happens is that neighboring tissues will be constantly irritated for all time into the future. Inflammations set up shop and the bird will be in pain. The irritation is a draw for bacteria and there is danger of infection. The inflammation will also eventually cause nerve damage in the neighboring areas. At the least, the leg can atrophy from improper or no use. Arthritis is much more of a possibility. Your racing pigeon people do not know how to properly take care of a break. 

A broken bone is not to be left alone. True, sometimes the bird gets lucky and the bone heals aligned but I'm not willing to take the chance on that happening. 

And if the leg is not broken? If you sprain your ankle badly, it's put into a brace and it isn't just to give you the support you need to walk. It's to allow the ankle to heal and avoid inflammation of neighboring tissues and nerves. We tape birds' wings when they are sprained. Why shouldn't it be done with legs too?

But we don't even know what that leg looks like. The bird was turned upside down and all we got to see were two legs in a rested position. If you want to see what the leg looks like, then take a picture of the bird in a normal position. Look for bleeding under the skin which is a dead giveaway of a break. Pull out some feathers if you have to but look for the black and blue under the skin. 


"To my way of thinking, if a bird has a leg that's dangling at an unnatural angle, it really needs immobilization in the worst way. If it's not, like it or not, they will heal on their own, with or without us in most cases. An improperly applied splint that doesn't actually immobilize the break can cause a non-union, according to the vet. If this one is hurt up in the true knee instead of the lower leg, it's a bit tougher to restrain. If it's inflammation due to disease, he might even need to work the joint to keep it from freezing up."

Without an X-Ray, how do you know what the position of the bones are? If you can't get the bird over to a vet, then align the bone as best as you can and immobilize it. Feel for the break and reduce it. Push and pull but get the bone aligned as best as possible to reduce calcification and subsequent irritation. I'm not talking about in improperly immobilized leg. Sure, if a brace isn't applied proplerly, there will be a lot of trouble. For all we know, the bone is not only broken but fragmented. But as I said before, even if it isn't broken, it needs to be braced and later on, after the splint is removed and if necessary, then do physical therapy by extending the leg a couple of hundred times a day. You use masking tape. I use an inflexible wire. It doesn't matter as long as the leg is placed into the right position and immobilized. 

Take the leg and extend it. If the bird can pull it back, the break is not in the thigh but it's the hock joint or lower. That's how to tell where the break is located. This was not done here so we know as much as we did yesterday.

What will an antibiotic do for a broken leg? Maybe, maybe it will serve to stop a bacterial infection and maybe, maybe, the drug will serve to reduce inflammation but nobody is addressing the leg itself. I said this before. I don't care if the leg is broken or not but it has to be immobilized for it to heal properly and if it doesn't, there are going to be a lot of complications.


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## Pidgey

The reason why I've gone the route I have is because I just had a bird in house who had a leg with a Paratyphoid boil. Looked like a broken leg. The bird acted like it was a broken leg, kept it held up and hopped everywhere. Must have been like that for days. Four days of Baytril (and aspirin) and he's walking on it again (haltingly, to be sure, but he's doing it).

I have another rescue from the old days (before I got heavily into rehabbing) that had been smashed by a car in the side, leg and wing on that side totally out of commission. Even the ribcage seemed flattened a bit. Kept that bird on a towel for a month before it could walk again. It was during the high heat of summer and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that it hadn't been that way for long as it wasn't dehydrated yet.

Anyhow, as tough as it is to diagnose these things over the Internet, I suppose (perhaps wrongly) that one of the markers I use for how long the bird has had its injury is whether it's hopping around on one foot fairly well. All of the birds that I've had who have been modified by fast-moving cars have patently not wanted to move for days after the rescue. It doesn't take them long at all to realize that in the towel donuts there's no need to--the food's right there, the water's right there, the poop mysteriously disappears every few hours... they just kick back and heal. Usually, after a week or so, they start standing on the one leg and practice hopping around, but not much before that. 

I've seen this both with ferals and domestics. Might be wrong but I tend to think that if they're hopping around fairly well, the problem ain't very new. And if it ain't new, then it might be well under way to be resolved, or downright unchangeable. Only Moxie can tell us if this is a flock that's been under surveillance for awhile and knows this particular bird's history, whether it's a new injury or something she's been watching for awhile. 

Earlier in the thread, I linked the skeletal drawings in the hope that she'd be able to confirm a break or not. She'd already said it was a low-budget rescue so just trying to work with what we don't have. 

As a point of interest, when Bread (Pidgey's son by Heckle) broke his leg, there was no swelling. He'd broken the distal tibiotarsus. I put a kind of cast on but I still took him to a vet, who laughed at what I'd done and showed me the masking tape method. The bird stayed down for a week before starting to stand on the one leg and hop. After three weeks, it was obvious that he couldn't stay in the house any longer because he was going everywhere.

When Patches came in, he was badly dehydrated and we had to get over that first. Then, I put him in a masking tape splint. He also stayed down for almost two weeks before he decided to start attempting to stand on the one leg. His was a worse break but it still didn't swell. Today (kept him), that one leg bows outward a tad but you wouldn't notice if you didn't know.

X-er was the one that got heavily modified on the one side by the car (found by the side of the expressway) and he didn't swell either. He just felt rubbery on that side and tried not to use either the wing or leg. Seeing as how there was no foreshortening of the leg or wing in any portion due to a comminuted fracture, I just let him heal in his natural resting position for the month. He moved around some but not a lot. You can't tell he ever hurt his leg today although the shoulder won't allow him to rotate the wing over horizontal so he can't fly.

The point is I haven't seen a lot of swelling with broken legs or wings. I've seem some lumps on their wings from blood drying in the feathers and calcium calluses on healed wing bones (usually the radius/ulna pairing) but the bulk of swellings that I've seen with unbroken skin have been specifically on joints and have responded better to antibiotic therapy, usually with fluoroquinolones. I've seen those in the equivalent to our wrists, elbows, shoulders and ankles. Haven't seen one in the knee yet.

Going over this thread again, I haven't seen a way forward to determine the difference. If it is a real knee injury (not the hock joint) , then it's not in an easy place to splint. We're going to have to wait until Moxie gets back and has the time to make a better examination and answer the questions more fully. From the pictures so far, the leg isn't so far out of place as to suspect that it's a comminuted fracture. And, I'm thinking, it's probably been some time since the original problem began as the bird's hopping around a lot. Might be wrong, but that's the basis of my logic thus far.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Well, I'm pretty much talked out on this. Our experiences are probably similar except that I've seen a lot of broken thighs with swelling. It all depends on how long the break has been there and where it is and how it is. I get them in all the time and they are all different. About three months ago, I picked up one that seemed to have been hit very hard by a car. The thigh was in pieces. I had to manipulate them into place as best as I could, tape the entire thigh to keep them in place and fixed the entire leg with three wires all the way down in order to hold everything together. It worked and he's out doing his thing. It could have gone a lot worse.
Right now, I have a bird with a left broken leg and it's been splinted. It's too early to say anything about it other than the droppings indicate both a bacterial and yeast infection so he's getting the full treatment. 
I've seen plenty of birds with paratyphoid boils but only on the wings, never on the legs but they can be anywhere. 
Take care.


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## Pidgey

Okay, all, pigeonperson and I had a talk about this one over the phone and we've been enjoying a semantics problem. What we worked out (if I've got this right) is that if the femur is broken (which is contained up in the skin of the trunk of the body and cannot easily be seen), then the bird cannot pull the leg back if it's pulled outward or downward and then released. I've got no idea what it would do if the joint of the femur and tibiotarsus were badly inflamed from Paratyphoid. So far, Moxie has identified possible swelling in that area if we're all on the same page as to the exact location.

I'm not certain that we've got an idea of what to do if there were an injury to either the femur or that joint between the femur and the tibiotarsus. That's where I was thinking that only time in a squat would help. I have read about them securing the femur with the pins through the bone to an external brace but that's out of the question here.

Pigeonperson was thinking that there might be a break in the tibiotarsus section for which he's advocating splinting it up (think I got that right). The only breaks in that area that I'm used to are lower down on it. A vet would try to hold one end of the bones in question steady and then twist or apply torque to see if there was undue rotation or looseness. Sometimes, you're forced to think your way through these things in order to make the right determination.

So, Moxie, whenever you get back on here, try to use both hands and feel the various bones, twisting and torqueing here and there to see if you can find an obviously broken section. Don't overdo it, of course.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I've been trying to figure out how to get an image that you've posted before and is in your inventory to show up in a new post. This sorta' works but only as opening a new browser window:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2513&d=1139795421

Oh, well, maybe somebody more familiar with the system can help later. Anyhow, in that picture, you can see in the "A" view, that the femur lies above the long tibiotarsus section which ends in the "hock joint" above the tarsometatarsus going down to the spread of the toes. If there is a break is in the femur, it's obviously a lot harder to deal with unless it's healable all on its own. It seems that there was such a break on a bird reported to the board a long time ago and it might not have gone well at all for what I remember. Anyhow, I've seen the breaks like are shown in the "A" view and I have no idea what all was messed up on X-er but I think it was higher up. Like I said, he didn't move around much for an entire month.

Pidgey


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## Guest

We're going nuts with this. Let me try to understand what is going on too. Pidgey, if there is a break in the fibula, it's internal and surgery could possibly be necessary to keep the bone together. If the break is in the femur (thigh) and you extend the leg, the leg will not be pulled back by the bird because it can't pull it back. If the bird can pull the leg back, the break is not in the femur but it is in the hock joint (knee) or below. Either way, there is a need to splint the entire leg from the femur down all the way in order to keep everything in alignment while it heals. I think we're on the same page.


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## Pidgey

Yeah, when Moxie shows back up, we'll keep her going for quite awhile, but I think we'll be a lot closer to getting a good answer after all of this.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, how exactly do i take a pic of him standing withought flying away?? ideas?? i am going to feed him now. 
I dont know if i can get any meds yet. i cant get in touch with my friend. so i will try more tomorrow. i am getting a new syringe for tube feeding in the morning. i tried a few vets for the meds but no go on that route, as i figured.
i am gonna read up on giving the pill to him. i am not comfortable with shoving it to the back of his throat. can i chop up with the corn syrup as suggested earlier?? and the whole pill all at once???

oh, and how do i really examine him WITHOUT putting him upside down??? any ideas, i really cant think of a good position to get all in there to see. also, can i just cut some feathers back, or do i pluck them?? i'd rather cut them if thats an option....

be right back.....


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## Pidgey

Well, for something like that I usually just hold the bird with one hand and examine with the other. Pigeonperson was just saying that you could put him somewhat on his back but maintain his head and neck at an upward angle. He told me about a parrot that died getting its toenails clipped at the vet for being held that way. It depends a lot on when the last time they've eaten or drank.

A regular pigeon can swallow an entire kernel of field corn easily and that's three times bigger than that pill.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

OH!!! guess what!!! i was holding him and he pecked at the floor, i put the seed in front of him and he ate, WHILE I WAS HOLDING HIM STILL!! it was the sweetest thing ever!! i think i'm in love!! he he... 
no water though......
he was bein frisky so i crushed up the pill and tubed it in with some kaytee...
i am posting pics in the morning as i am so tired and i've been having a ton of trouble posting on here, when i hit the "manage attachments" nothing comes up, not my pop up blocker as i can disable it and it still doesnt work. this has happened to me before too and it seems like it attaches pics when it damn well feels like it, like A.I. or something, creepy!! 

im so happy he's eating,
about his leg. i pulled it and he didnt really PULL it back, it was like it just naturally SLOWLY returned to position, as i was feel;ing around he wiggled a few toes on his bad foot, good news, right??

anyways, off for the night, wish my baby luck....


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## Pidgey

Goodnight, kid.

They sometimes figure out that we're trying to help and it usually takes two or three days. When they do, they're a lot more manageable, even helpful. Every now and then, they just decide that there's nowhere else they'd rather be and then it's an act of cruelty to release them.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

*i am having trouble posting pics...*

i cant post pics, the link for pics earlier wont let me post any more pics, and i cant do it here for some reason....

anyways, i cant get the meds. i'm at a loss as what to do here...
i'm gonna keep trying to put up pics


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## Pidgey

Well, it probably means that you're going to have to get another care package, no biggie. Just give more details about how he's doing at this point. You were going to look into the feathers for signs of bruising (usually a dark bluegreen and that doesn't mean gangrene) and also try to figure out whether there was any indication of a loose or broken bone.

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
I know you feel that you're in over your head with this one because of the leg. You never handled something like this so you're afraid you might hurt him. You won't. If you can get masking tape, we can get you through this and his leg will be able to heal properly. If you feel better about it, then get somebody to help you. One will hold the bird and one will tape it. Forget about the paper clip or a wire. If you wrap the leg enough times, it will be immobilized.
Do you want to go over this on the web? If you do, tell me and I'll post.


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## xxmoxiexx

*ok, here's a few pics....*

will add more in a minute....
notice in the one of his feet, how the toes on the bad, left foot are black UNDERNEATH, and the good foot is pink underneath???


----------



## Guest

That's bruising and some dirt. It will fade.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, when i looked i didnt see any purple or blue bruising. all i can really tell is the one joint seems swollen/bigger that the other one.
yes, i have masking tape and i can get some kind of wire if thats needed. i do want to know how i should wrap it. you can tell me over the web or call me. either way is cool. i'm just curious if i should wrap the leg in a certain position or if i should wrap it up the way he's holding it??? oh, i probably need some more seed. where do you guys buy your seed at, i cant find it here anywhere. and, how do you all find all the medication??


----------



## Pidgey

We order meds from various places depending on what it is. A lot comes from pigeon supply houses. We tend to buy in bulk and can send you a relatively tiny bit at no real cost. I doubt you can afford to buy stuff the way we do.

Is it your opinion that the tibiotarsus is completely solid, top to bottom? That would be from the patella in the drawings (way up in the body feathers) down to the hock joint (where it shows the calcaneal ridge)?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

*more pics...*

ok, few more pics. one is of a plug i found floating in his water. i looked everywhere on him and i cant find where it came from. he was sitting in the water so i think it came out when he was in the water. it was hard but flexible like cartalidge, and feather material coming from one side, and the other side had a hole, like a tip of bone with the hole for marrow or something.., with a little fuzz poking out, like fuzzy feather pieces...


----------



## Pidgey

Okay, so how's he doing otherwise? Eating, drinking, pooping... ?

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i cant tell if he's drinking. i know he was eating last night, and i cant tell if he ate more because he likes to sit in the food and water bowl so he's making a mess. i am going to still give him a little kaytee with water just in case. i'm due to go check on him soon, so i'm gonna check the poop again. i have to take a new set of poo pics because i took some that didnt come out at all.

i really cant tell anything obvious in the bone. i will feel some more tonight. if it's there it must be subtle. i have to wait for my roomate to get home to check that.


----------



## Guest

Ok--It would be great if you could get an extra set of hands but here goes. Before you do anything, read this first and visualize it. 

First, feel for a break in the bone in the thigh. If you do, press that area to try and align the bone. If you don't the bone is probably aligned and it's a clean break. 

1)Cut off a piece of tape about two inches long and start at the bottom of the leg, just above where the toes start. Wrap around that part of the leg. If the tape reaches the middle joint (knee), don't tape that joint yet. Cut the tape lengthwise to make it less wide. Make it snug not tight. You don't want to cut off circulation. You want to tape the leg just below that middle joint.

2) Cut off another piece of tape and wrap around the joint in the middle of the leg. Now, they never keep that joint completely straight. If you were to extend the leg, that would be 180 degrees. If you were to bend the joint perpendicular, that would be 90 degrees. You want a very slight bend in the joint no more than 10 degrees. Place the second piece of tape over the first tape but higher so that this piece will reach above the joint. Wrap that around.

3) Take a third piece of tape and wrap above the joint to the thigh. There will be feathers on the thigh so just do it like a bandage around a finger and wrap the thigh. This third piece of tape will be taping over the second tape but higher. This has to be just a little snugger, not tight because this is where the injury is and you want it to stay in place and not movable at all. Go to the very highest point on the thigh. 

4) Now that the entire leg is taped, cut off a longer piece of tape and starting on the bottom of the leg, wrap the tape around heading for the top of the thigh. Make sure you don't straighten out the middle joint as you tape.

5) Take a 5th piece of tape and wrap the leg starting at the very top of the thigh and moving it down towards the bottom of the leg.

6) Now, if the leg feels immobilized, you can stop. If it doesn't then use another layer of tape from top to bottom and then it should be completely immobilized.

7) If any end starts to peel, use scotch tape or something else to hold the end in place

8) Keep this on for three weeks.

Be neat and if it starts to mess up, remove that piece of tape and start it again. It's good to visualize this so you can cut all the pieces of tape before you start.


----------



## Guest

Holy cow!! What is that plug? I think he's injured more than we think. That black on the feathers near the thigh could be dried blood. Can you take a look before doing anything? Cut the feathers to be able to see this. Don't pluck any because he will start to bleed.


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## xxmoxiexx

do i want to actually tape to the leg/feathers/thigh, or do i want to put some gauze inbetween the tape and leg???
oh, that is water on his feathers. i got it wet so i could see his skin better.i didnt see any dried blood anywhere..... but yes, i am concerned about the plug. are you talking about dried blood on the plug or the pics with him in it??? the plug didnt have any dried blood, but it was in the water so....???
so what could this plug be??? that is my thumb next to it to guage the size of plug.... the plug was more of a yellowy white when i found it but it's dried now. post more pics of it???


----------



## Guest

If you feel better about it, then wrap a layer of gauze first. Before you do anything, you have to find out where that piece of flesh came from. Cut the feathers away from the thigh and higher. We have to find out where that plug came from.


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## Guest

Moxie,
There is a bad injury somewhere above the leg. It may be high up on the thigh or it could be higher than that. You have to find out where it is before you do anything.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

cut the feathers away by his leg only???


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## Guest

You have to find this injury. It could be on the flank or on the inside by the soft tissue on his body. First feel for a hole but there is something somewhere.


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## xxmoxiexx

do you think it might be a feather shaft???


----------



## Guest

That's not a feather shaft but a chunk of flesh that was caught on his body and sitting in the water, he soaked it off. He's got a bad injury somewhere in that area.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

im gonna go look right now. i tried to post more pics of plug but the manage attachments doesnt feel like working again!! AHHHH!! its driving me crazy!!!


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
There is a bad injury in or around the general area of his thigh. There is a wound and it's not fresh enough to be able to suture. A vet might have to cut away dead flesh in order to sew this back together if it can be done or else this would have to heal on its own with your help. To top it off, there may already be infection that's set in. So now we go from a broken leg to something more serious. You don't have to post more pictures of the plug.


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## Guest

Ok, I spoke to Moxie by phone. The bird has a penetration wound high up in the body above the thigh itself and in the femur. He's on Enroxil the generic form of Baytril. Right now, he'll be treated very conservatively with Neosporin. We'll see what washes up from the deep wound. This will have to close by itself and it won't close until all the infection is out of there. If the leg is broken, there wouldn't be any sense in trying to set it because any splint would be lower than the break which would actually be in the body proper and now, we don't even know if there really is a break.


----------



## Pidgey

All you regulars will get a kick out of this--this morning when I pulled the plug on the bathtub water, I heard a funny sound from the basement. Pattie Cakers was down there so I was afraid she'd fallen off the table but when I investigated it was water pouring out of a crack in the drain system from the bathtub. Went outside and pulled the cap off the access to the drain line to the sewer and it was all backed up. This evening, I went to the rental place to get a roto-rooter deal and was in the middle of the job when pigeonperson called me. We conferred on this particular case and I gave him Moxie's number to call and work her through an exam to find where that plug might have come from AND I told pigeonperson that I was in the middle of a REALLY S****Y job (pun intended) so he got to handle all that. Looks like we're getting somewhere now so let's have a round of applause for pigeonperson!

Pidgey the Plumber


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## jazaroo

Nice to see team work in action.

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx

*ok, cant post pics again.....*

....am having trouble with the god darn mother of frakin' thing..

so, put the neosporin on, he was laid on his side with my roomie holding him. i noticed when i pulled hurt leg a little outwards it makes a popping sound when i push it back towards him. i tried it on his good leg and there was no popping sound. also, the hurt leg is very very hot in the area by the hole, obviously because of infection i'm guessing.
the popping sound was a quieter version of when our joints pop. what could this mean?? 

alright, pidgey, go get your sh*t in order and let, oh!!you already did!! he he
i'm gonna go get some cr*p taken care of, maybe i should wait for you to take care of it, pidgey the plumber?!?! nice ring, and you would think pidgey had enough sh*t to deal with!!


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## Pidgey

I've had enough of that crap!

Hot, huh? Well, the Baytril tablets are probably going to have to help there. It is usually a good idea not to let an abscess scab completely over--they sometimes head inward in such cases. Granted, a pigeon's body heat is substantial and they feel especially warm anywhere you can touch plain skin or scar except the legs and wings. Anyhow, check that area over pretty well and see if it's filled in with scar tissue. If there is a scab then you might want to pick some of it off to drain any pus that might be building up inside. Bird pus is actually heavier than ours and is mostly like that stuff that builds up in canker.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Where, exactly, is the area that looks like the plug came from? Reference it to the leg bone names.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

it is seemingly right on the patella


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## Pidgey

Had to eat supper. And it was good!

Can you feel around there and determine if the bones of that area are still there? And do you think they're connected like they should be?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

it seems like the bones are all there. the only thing is its larger there so i cant tell if they are connected or not. i will poke around again in the morning...
i am gonna go to bed now, it's been a long day..


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## Pidgey

Alrighty, then, to bed with ya'!

Just make sure that your bird's comfortable before you put yourself to bed...

Pidgey


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## Guest

I hate to think of what may have happened if the plug was never seen. Moxie, that popping sound might be a dislocation or a break. We can't do anything about that. We have to just wait and hope the bone heals. He may be stuck with it.


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## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> ....am having trouble with the damn thing..
> 
> so, put the neosporin on, he was laid on his side with my roomie holding him. i noticed when i pulled hurt leg a little outwards it makes a popping sound when i push it back towards him. i tried it on his good leg and there was no popping sound. also, the hurt leg is very very hot in the area by the hole, obviously because of infection i'm guessing.
> the popping sound was a quieter version of when our joints pop. what could this mean??
> 
> .......


Sometimes localized swelling, ie excessive fluids can cause a popping sound w/movement, it may correct as the inflamation subsides.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, i was in with him and i felt the leg, the hurt leg is off, i just cant figure out how it is off. the hole is right on top of the patella. there was some fuzzy feather material poking out of the hole so i got some tweezers and pulled it out. from the looks of things it seems as if it's been there a while, as pidgey presumed. i am starting to wonder if it is from a b/b gun. all i see in there now is dark yellow and black, all dried up. it doesnt feel like the joint in the good leg. ok, i have pics, but i cant freakin post them. can i send them to someone to post?? i resized them already, i dont know why it never works for me, but it doesnt want to today and i've been trying for like 3 hours...


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## Pidgey

Can't you just add them to the others on the link that you sent? That works for me. Most of us have used up all the available space on here that we've got. That might even be your problem, too.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Moxie,
I had suggested that possibility to you over the phone. If this is a BB, they move around and can cause damage. if this is from a pellet gun, lead poisoning can set it. We don't know what is in there if anything and to find out, you really need an X-Ray. Is there anything you can do about getting one?

I'm not saying there is a piece of shot in there but here are some symptoms of lead poisoning in birds. The same things can be said about copper which is in BBs:

Such signs can include reduced appetite, loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, passing too much urine (sometimes blood tinged), drinking too much, being weak, incoordination and sometimes partly paralyzed, especially in the feet. Some birds have intermittent convulsions and fits. Lead and other heavy metal poisoning’s cause damage to various organs and also interfere with the immune system such that many birds with sub acute and chronic poisoning develop infections that contribute to the birds’ suffering and deaths.


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## Pidgey

Well, I sorta' doubt that an X-Ray is in the budget. I expect that she's going to have to try digging around with forceps and a flashlight. It's called "debriding", Moxie. And forceps are essentially tweezers although they're usually more slender on the tips than the ones used to pluck eyebrows with. If you have to flush, use warm saline (a teaspoon of salt to the quart of water).

Pidgey


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## Guest

Pidgey,
Absolutely no offense meant by this but to be honest, I would rather this bird be put to sleep rather than it have to go through the excruciating pain of a deep probe which could rupture a bursa or easily rip a major vessel for a piece of shot that may not even be there. This is not something Moxie should attempt.


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## Pidgey

Well, it's a good thing, because that's not what I'm suggesting. Some of the stuff in the wound that she describes just needs to come out. The dried blood and garbage that's essentially lining the pit, for lack of a better word, ought to be brought out. The wound won't really close until it is. There might even still be feather debris in there. 

I have a bird up in the loft to this day (3 or 4 years now) that was shot by a pellet that went up through one leg and the opposite wing. The pellet lodged in the wing near the wrist but on the radius/ulna side. I found the bird a few days after it had been shot and there was some stinking rot. I found the wing wound and it was packed with dried blood and some necrotic tissue. I kept NeoSporin on it for a few days but it wasn't closing up. It finally hit me that I was simply going to have to bite the bullet and pull some of that garbage out. I did it a little at a time over a few days and then I finally got down to the back of the pellet that was lodged in the bones. It resisted some but I pulled it out and the wound closed back up within two days of that, it was amazingly fast. The bird was never able to fly again and walking took awhile to get back but she lives pretty well under the circumstances.

What I'm suggesting is to just clean the wound out of the nasty stuff that Moxie can see because it won't really start healing in earnest until she does. I don't ever imagine that there's a projectile in these things unless I come across one in the normal course of debriding. I'd never even think to go digging around in vital tissue just looking for something.

Pidgey


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## Guest

I've taken shot out of birds in the past but this one, if it's that, is simply too deep and it's something I would never undertake.


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## xxmoxiexx

there is still some of the plug in the hole.. i can see dried blood/pus and fuzzy feather material...


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## Pidgey

I sent you my email address. Go ahead and send the pictures and I'll try to process them and post them to my webshots account. The hole can't close with garbage in it.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, pidgey, your gonna kill me. i was able to post the pics on that link. i guess something was temporarily unavailable.
so go to this link to see them. they are from yesterday, and the inside of the hole is now more solid and black.dark yellow. like more plug is in there.

http://groups.msn.com/pigeonbrokenleg/hurtpigeon.msnw?Page=1


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## Pidgey

Well, what you don't want to happen is for the hole to seal over on the outside while keeping something nasty on the inside. You need to start using the tweezers (forceps) to bring the garbage out, flush with saline (with a syringe if you have to), check with a magnifying glass... kinda' like the instructions on a bottle of shampoo: "Lather, rinse, repeat"

It's kind of a small hole, huh?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

is it small?? it's about the width of a b/b or a cigarette filter


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## Pidgey

It is now. It wouldn't have dragged in that much feather stuff if it had been something that small originally. He could have hit something, too, it's just really hard to tell. 

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, i got a lot of stuff out. there was some hard yellow pus, and A LOT OF FEATHER PIECES!! what could of caused this??? the hole is deeper now that i can see, but i put him away for now to calm down and we will look again tomorrow. i mean, i think a bb could of ripped some feathrs into the flesh on the way in, but i cant see as far as the hole goes to see if there's a bb. i would think i would be ablt to FEEL the bb, an obvious bump, but i dont. and he doesnt have symptoms of lead poisoning. i mean, has anyone seen a puncture from a nail/wire or something with all that damn feather crap in there??
anyways, he has been moving his foot a LITTLE more, like he's trying to limp but it hurts too much still, so he pulls it back up. i am so glad he soaked in the water, since that initial plug came out i think it helped drain it a bit.
i talked to pidgey on the phone when i still thought it was a break and he thought it pretty suspicious that he was sitting in the water, i didnt think anything of it.
what could he have hit to make a puncture that big and deep, and sharp enough to rip his feathers INTO him?? just weird.....
anyways, thanks everyone, pidgey and pigeonperson. it's not over by a long shot, but thanks for getting us this far.


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## Pidgey

In cases like that, you can use a syringe to inject the saline into the hole to help carry debris back out. I usually do it with good force but you gotta' know that's pretty messy so it's best to do it in the bathtub. You're going to get wet, no two ways about it. If the walls of the hole have scarred, it's going to be there for quite awhile. I think it took Pierpont's chest several months to finally close up that one hole. It resembled a belly-button (an "innie", if you must know) for a looooooonnnnggg time.

Flying is risky. In gusty winds, you can easily overshoot and run into stuff. Some of them get hurt from time to time and he could even have been hit by the hood ornament of a car, an antennae, mighta' smacked a fence... you're probably never going to know. It happens.

Otherwise, how're his spirits? Is his appetite getting any better?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

he's a little frisky, makin the growling noises when i reach for him. but i dont blame him. his poops are good, more solid, like the thin tubes of cake frosting consistency, darker forest green with a little white. and he's pooping A LOT!!! and he seems to be eating a little, not a lot. i've been tubing him some water with the meds and a little kaytee, just cause i have yet to see him drink. he's a little sweetheart. so, what do you use to squirt water in with pressure?? like an ear wax bulb??


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## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> .....
> what could he have hit to make a puncture that big and deep, and sharp enough to rip his feathers INTO him?? just weird.....
> anyways, thanks everyone, pidgey and pigeonperson. it's not over by a long shot, but thanks for getting us this far.


Not saying this is it, but one of the birds that I picked up from the Avian vet recently had a fractured wing and a puncture wound. She told me that the puncture wound was from being shot _because feathers were found forced into the puncture wound and so this is typical of this type of injury._

fp


----------



## Pidgey

I use a syringe. I just stick the nozzle in and pump the water in. When it's really deep, I use one of those tubes like you've used for tube-feeding. 

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

Hi. The hole seems to be a little smaller today, like it wants to close.
(SLIGHTLY smaller). When I looked in, I saw a piece of yellow and extracted it with my tweezers. I pulled out a small piece of what seemed to be hardened pus that had risen close to the surface of the hole. Question: should I let the hole close naturally or do I want to be able to check inside for more buld-up by somehow keeping it open?


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## feralpigeon

You definitely don't want it to scab over or close up from the outside in. Puncture wounds need to heal at the base on out otherwise infection may 
fester. Also, we still don't know about the possibility of a pellet or other 
powered projectile that might be present. I guess there is no where that
this bird could go for an x-ray? This would be the ideal scenario so you know
what you are dealing with especially after finding feathers packed into the 
wound.

fp


----------



## jazaroo

I was thinking a little about the problem of ascertaining whether there is a BB still inside this birds leg. I came up with this, since BBs are made up of 96-98% steel, and coated with copper or graphite, my thinking is if you used one of the new Neodymium type magnets, http://www.allmagnetics.com/craft/ndfeb.htm, and slowly passed it over the area in question, if there is a steel BB embedded, there will be a definite pull/attraction. This idea will only work on BBs (steel) and not if it is a pellet (lead).

Ron


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## feralpigeon

Ron, that would work if of the copper or graphite coated steel genre, but if plastic or lead or perhaps not a pellet per se, we will still not know for certain.
They do make lead wadcutter pellets for air guns and god only knows what else besides what the individual might come up with on their own w/improvisation.

fp


----------



## Guest

Ron,
That's a good idea if the shot is magnetic but the damn thing may be under bone so what magnet is strong enough to attract it? The picture we saw sure looks suspicious enough that it could be BB size. 
I had one a few months ago that went right through the thigh and penetrated the skin coming to rest at the keel. There was a scab on the surface and it ran very deep into the tissues. When I pulled it out, the BB came with it. Moxie's bird can't be worked like that. If it's a BB, it's too deep and hiding under the bone. If there was ever a time when an X-ray were needed...........


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
If he could pull the thigh even just a little bit, there's no break there. It could be a fracture in the fibula, though not a complete break. There might even be some bone fragments floating around in there.
My rehabber friend in Queens, NY, recently took a bird to Animal General and when they X-Rayed, they saw a lead pellet. They had to go in not only for the pellet but for the shards of bone that were in there cutting tissue into pieces. I think the pellet was just about in the same area we're talking about.


----------



## feralpigeon

There's still the problem of steel bb's not being the only ones used. I've seen the lead ones as they are sold at shopping malls, so not that difficult
to obtain and about the same size as a steel or plastic pellet. In some of the 
gas powered air guns, any of these could penetrate, create this kind of wound and be the the culprit.

fp


----------



## Guest

I don't want to put anyone on the spot here and if this is what I'm doing, nobody will respond. Would it be possible for a whole bunch of us to send checks to Moxie so she can afford to take the bird to a good avian vet? If 70 people would send just $5.00 each, I'm sure something could be done. I don't know how much would be involved but it might be possible to get up enough money for this. I know. I know. Money doesn't grow on trees and we all have our own problems but I figured I would bring this up anyway.


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## feralpigeon

Where exactly is Moxie located pigeon person? And yes, if it comes down to that & it may, of course. 

fp


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## jazaroo

fp, I agree there are a number of possibilities. I guess what I am thinking, if it was from an air-gun, the most likely shot would be either steel or lead. I am also thinking, this is the most preferred shot of the idiots that are shooting at birds. The Neodymium magnets are really something. they have an unbelievable amount of attraction and I have no doubts if there was a steel BB in there, with this type of magnet you would know it. PP, if this is what is agreed on, it's fine with me.

Ron


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## feralpigeon

Ron, I agree about the steel and the magnet, I just know that they use the lead and plastic with enough regularity in airguns and that many get their kicks from developing their own. All of this may be a moot issue though even if steel if being behind the bone would interfere w/the magnets ability. 

Am still interested in Moxie's where abouts.

fp


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## feralpigeon

The vet that I picked up the pij from w/the fractured wing didn't really have lots pigeon experience, but she knew gunshot wounds, how to xray, irrigate the 
wound and wrap the wing.

fp


----------



## Guest

Nona,
Of course, I would be in too. If this gets off the ground, I could look up avian vets in Boston and call to find out just how good they are. Thanks. Moxie probably doesn't even know about this suggestion yet.


----------



## feralpigeon

Does Moxie have a car?

fp


----------



## Guest

FP,
I don't know if she has a car. I'm going to post the three avian vets I found in the Boston area. 

Little bird,
There is always a danger with any anesthesia. For birds, Isoflurane is used. It's safer than most. As soon as the anesthetic is taken away, the bird wakes up. Of course the bird would have to be strong enough to go under the gas so we're walking a thin line. If we wait too long, it will be too late. If we do it too soon, the bird could die.
I just called Moxie and left a message to let her know this MIGHT be possible to pull off.


----------



## Guest

AVIAN VETS IN BOSTON;

1) Armando Burgos
350 S. Huntington Ave
Boston, MA 02130
Phone: (617)522-7282 

2) Tracey Ritzman
350 South Huntington Ave.
Boston, MA 02130
Phone: 617-522-7282
Fax: 617-522-4885 

3) Connie Orcutt
350 S. Huntington Ave.
Boston, MA 02130
Phone: 617 522-7282
Fax: 617 522-4885


----------



## Guest

CERTIFIED AVIAN VET IN BOSTON.

Connie J. Orcutt
Angell Memorial Animal Hosp
617-522-7282


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## feralpigeon

Boston, MA - Connie J. Orcutt (Angell Memorial Animal Hosp) - 617-522-7282
Woods Hole, MA - Lucy Bartlett - 

A link w/listings:

http://aav.org/vet-lookup/locate-vet2.php?query_field=state&search_string=MA

And this one that if she had a car might be able to get services for free:

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/wildlife/service.html

She'd have to find out ahead of time what the policy is regarding non-releasable
pigeons. I think Lin Hanson has extended family that is affiliated w/this group.

fp


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## feralpigeon

Here's a post from Lin:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=70358&postcount=11

fp


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## jazaroo

fp, when I first joined this forum I remember in my reading that most of these wildlife centers require that any animal brought in be signed over to them before they will treat at no charge. Do you think this would be the case with Tufts and I wonder what their PTS policy is?

Ron


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## Guest

Ron, 
Is PTS, put to sleep? I think if you're a paying customer, that won't apply unless examination shows the bird can't be saved.


----------



## jazaroo

Sorry PP, I learned that term at this board, PTS -- put to sleep.

Ron


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## Guest

fp,
Lucy Bartlett has her own site on the net. She may be in Florida now. I don't know how current this site is.

http://it.spcollege.edu/course_info/inquiry.cfm?number=155


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## feralpigeon

Many of them do require signing over, some will work w/folks because they need
help w/the nursing and adopting end. And if they work w/pigeons and have a 
policy of not putting down unless absolutely necessary, Moxie may be comfortable w/bringing there.

I have several different scenarios locally that I work with depending on the individual case.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> Lucy Bartlett has her own site on the net. She may be in Florida now. I don't know how current this site is.
> 
> http://it.spcollege.edu/course_info/inquiry.cfm?number=155


That's too bad, Woods Hole is fairly well known as being a very progressive community. 

Folks do commute though between Florida and the northeastern area. She
may do this herself. A call would find out for sure.
fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

OH!!! you guys are way too nice, you know that?? PLEASE dont rush into sending money. i know i'm a poor college student but i still hate to take money. we can use that as a last resort! let me try to call around tuesday and see what i can come up with. i dont have a car, BUT i can try to finagle a ride if need be. i seem to remember at tufts you have to give them the animal. i went through this before, and everywhere i called said it was selfish of me twant the bird back if it couldnt be released and it's better to kill them than keep them. it was quite the traumatic experience, hearing all of that, but i would do it again in a heartbeat if there was a chance i can get him care.
i used to volunteer at angell memorial hospital, but they really do treat their volunteers like 2nd class citizens so i dont know how that will work. i'm gonna call around to see if anything is open now... let you know ASAP what happens...


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i just called angell, they said they dont treat wildlife, should i start saying this is my pet that flys around once in a while?? how do i explain how long he's had this injury?? and all of info pertaining to injury??
they gave me a bunch of wildlife rehab numbers, what do you think of these places???


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
It's for the X-RAY to find out if there is anything in there and if there is, for surgery to remove it and possible bone shards. Wildlife rehabilitators may or may not take the bird to their vet for an X-Ray. That's why we would have to go the private vet route,
Have you tried the three Boston area three avian vets I posted up above? I know, it's Sunday.


----------



## feralpigeon

One vet hospital here is private pay, but has a 'wildlife' account they charge
x-rays to for animals that are dropped off by Animal Control. Another place will let you sign over and let you pay the bill if the bird is releasable or a reasonable
portion thereof. I think as you call, you'll get a feel for what to ask.

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, tufts, i talked to them and they said IF he could be released again, they would treat him. i asked if he couldnt be released if i could keep him as a pet, and they said it is illegal to own wildlife so they would have to put him to sleep and couldnt give him back... and if the leg had problems, he is deemed unreleasable..
the private vets, do i say he is my pet???????
oh man, if i ever saw anyone shooting a bird with a gun or even bb gun, i would need bail money. although, i remember my brother and his friends used to do it, darn kids, huh??
you know, where i'm from in washington state, the logging companies pay you $2 every porcupine nose you bring to them, as porcupines eat the trees or something. so all the red-necks would cut the nose off porcupines and leave them alive like that. they would hook up these like snow-plow looking tings to their trucks so they could get drunk on saturday nights and drive around to knock the porcupines out and do the dirty deed. it is so sickening. i feel sick just thinking about how cruel people can be. it's no wonder i love animals so much. 
did anyone hear about those internet hunting sites?? where you pay a fee, and with a click of your mouse you shoot an actual gun thats hooked up in the woods somewhere to shoot an animal. but you aren't there to finish the animal off. supposedly it's for hunters that are in wheelchairs and can't hunt anymore....ok i'll shut up, totally off subject, but once i get going sometimes....


----------



## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, tufts, i talked to them and they said IF he could be released again, they would treat him. i asked if he couldnt be released if i could keep him as a pet, and they said it is illegal to own wildlife so they would have to put him to sleep and couldnt give him back... and if the leg had problems, he is deemed unreleasable..
> the private vets, do i say he is my pet???????
> oh man, if i ever saw anyone shooting a bird with a gun or even bb gun, i would need bail money. although, i remember my brother and his friends used to do it, darn kids, huh??
> you know, where i'm from in washington state, the logging companies pay you $2 every porcupine nose you bring to them, as porcupines eat the trees or something. so all the red-necks would cut the nose off porcupines and leave them alive like that. they would hook up these like snow-plow looking tings to their trucks so they could get drunk on saturday nights and drive around to knock the porcupines out and do the dirty deed. it is so sickening. i feel sick just thinking about how cruel people can be. it's no wonder i love animals so much.
> did anyone hear about those internet hunting sites?? where you pay a fee, and with a click of your mouse you shoot an actual gun thats hooked up in the woods somewhere to shoot an animal. but you aren't there to finish the animal off. supposedly it's for hunters that are in wheelchairs and can't hunt anymore....ok i'll shut up, totally off subject, but once i get going sometimes....



OK, now I feel sick...poor porcupines, that's disgusting.

Anyway, Tufts is wrong, pigeons aren't a protected species, but that's that and no sense dealing w/them if this is their policy. This means private vet.
Tell them it's your pet and he got out when a service guy came to the house
and left the door open. Once shot, he was spooked and it was hard for you
to get him back in the house. How's that? Let us know about the money.

fp


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## jazaroo

xxmoxiexx, I would go with fp's story and that this bird is your personal pet and stick to it. Most likely they will suspect something, but who cares. You will need a name and a date of birth for him. If they ask you why you did not come sooner, just tell them money was tight and you were trying to manage on your own.

Good luck,

Ron


----------



## xxmoxiexx

quick question, about food, will dove seed work or does it have to be pigeon seed?? i am having trouble finding any seed around here.... and one place said it has wild dove seed...
how long ago should i say he got injured?? also, from the pics, about how old is he so i can guess his birthday?? and where should i say i got him?? wont they want to know if he has all his shots before they see him??
sorry i made you feel sick fp, i usually hate it when people tell me horrible stories about hurt animals, but when i get going, and usually calling these places gets me steamed up, as i'm sure you all understand.
well, i am going to call the private vets in the morning and see what they say. just help me out with a solid back story/history of the bird to tell them first??
thanks everyone, you're all such superstars....give yourself a gold star!!! he he he


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
Do you have the ability to get into Manhattan? Animal General will do the work for nothing. They only ask for a donation if it's possible. They operate on pigeons all the time and their success record in treating pigeons is known to be very good.


----------



## Guest

The birds usually like the small stuff so dove food is fine. As long as the mix doesn't have unshelled sunflower seeds in it, it's fine. Black oil sunflower seeds are good because the birds can digest them but regular sunflower seeds are dangerous.


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
A lot of avian vets will see a feral pigeon as long as the customer pays so you wouldn't have to make up any stories about this bird. Some vets won't even want the pigeon in their office. I'll call the three avian vets I posted and ask about if they will see the bird and price.


----------



## Guest

A lot of people privately emailed me to say they would be happy to chip in, in order to save the life of the bird. All I can say is that it's an honor to be among such a group of caring and compassionate people. Thank you all very much.
I spoke to Moxie by phone and she'll be posting later to tell you why a vet won't be necessary. She's pulled off a minor miracle.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

*Good!!!! News!!!!!!*

*you guys are going to die!! really, because i almost just died!!!* 

i went in to flush it as pidgey suggested, an the ear bulb and syringe tip (without needle) was roghly same size as hole. so i flushed and flushed and saw more HARD pus and feathers, so i pulled some out with tweezers, then flushed and used the ear bulb the opposite way, to apply suction on the inside, then i saw some pus way back, and i put my tweezers in and felt something scrape against tweezers about 2-3 inches in. worked some more pus out and felt the hard thing with tweezers, felt it some more against the thigh and got my tweezers around something and pulled, out comes a WAD of hard pus, feathers, and i looked at it and out rolls a BB!!!
the big half circle i felt on his leg joint is now gone!!! i am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy!!!
you guys, couldnt of done it without you, really!!thanks all for the offer of helping out with the vet, how sweet of you!!!! 
i'm off for a few hours, will check in when i get home!!
love you all!! you're awesome!!!


----------



## jazaroo

xxmoxiexx, this is just amazing good news. There still will be work that needs to be done on the wound now, but I will let others advise on this, as my deep wound management experience is limited.

Well done!

Ron


----------



## Guest

Just simply amazing!!!!


----------



## Reti

Awsome!!!!
Moxie you did a great job. I am so happy for you and of course the birdie.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx

i feel like i just started taking prozac or something! it's not over yet, but does it feel good to at least know what is wrong!!!!!!!!!


----------



## feralpigeon

Good work Moxie, bet you were...ah..sweating bullets  .

fp


----------



## mr squeaks

YEEEEEEHAW!!!

The pigeon Fairygodmothers (yes, ALL pijies have 'em!) were with you! That's just great!

Now....for the rehabilitation process!!! *CONGRATULATIONS *again!!!


LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES!! 

    

Shi
&
Mr. Squeaks


----------



## TAWhatley

Really, really, really well done, Moxie! I'm so glad you got to the root of the problem (so to speak)!

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

Sounds like it's been busy since I've been gone all day. To my way of thinking, it's always difficult to work up the courage to do proper debriding. After seeing some of the things that my vets have done, I'm just not that worried anymore. It's usually far better just to go at it and get it done rather than letting things fester. Hopefully, the healing will really start getting well under way now. Sounds like the birds of the area where this one came from are always going to be in some danger. If it's in the city then there're usually ordinances against the discharging of weapons (even BB guns) in city limits. You might tell the police about your findings and where the bird was found so that they can be aware of that.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

yeah!! i thought you forgot me pidgey!!! but, thinkin' on it, who could forget me?? he he he... just jokin'
anyways, does anyone, and i'm sure you know about this pidgey, know how to keep the wound from closing on the outside?? should i use a wick like they use for abcesses on people?? what could i use, just gauze?? i can get some of that.
just so you all know, it was a silver colored bb, like sterling or another metal. it had rust or lots of dirt on it....too bad they couldnt like fingerprint it or something, take it that serious, ya know???
i doubt the cops would care, they probably shoot the birds themselves, most of 'em anyways, i'd say 2% are nice cops here, the rest ARE JERKS!!! i'll call anyways, just to let them know that if people are shooting birds that concerned citizens want something done about it........


----------



## Skyeking

I have been following this thread and wondering if there was a bullet somewhere inside, WOW...I'm so glad you did get to the bottom of it and got it out!

I am sorry to hear the ferals are subjects of such cruelty.

Thank you for all your care and concern over this bird.


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## Pidgey

Well, hopefully you've gotten all the stuff flushed out, now. It's been in there for awhile, no doubt. You've had the bird for several days at this point and it was probably like this for days before you got it. We'll see if and how fast he starts using the leg again.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

should i put something in wound to keep it from closing outside first??


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
I would keep a wad of cotton in there, half in and half out. Keep flushing the wound because there could still be debris in there and it will go a long way in getting any bacteria that gets in, washed out.


----------



## Pidgey

It's always hard to tell when you've gotten everything. I guess when I finally stopped getting particles in the flush water is when I generally started letting it close. On Pierpont's wound, it didn't even want to close completely until it was ready. And if the tissues inside have formed scar tissue, it might have already formed a duct that won't close until it's ready. I'd go the cotton packing route and occasional flushes. Hopefully, he'll start using the leg again or at least start demonstrating that the leg will be usable in the future. If he occasionally puts it down then that's a real good sign that it'll be back to normal in a few weeks.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i guess i can still feel hard pus in there, but it's deep and i dont want to try to grab it if i dont have to, as the bullet was easier to grab than the pus is, the pus like grows onto skin and it is SO hard to pull off. i guess what i'm asking is when the hole closes wont his body eventually break down the pus?? or does it have to come out?


----------



## Pidgey

Normally, I'd tell you that you'd need some kind of instrument like an otoscope or an endoscope in order to look in there and see what's still there. You can buy a $10 otoscope (for looking into ears) at your local franchise drugstore but I know funds are tight. Just out of curiosity, is this wound just under the skin or is it more down in the bird's musculature? How can you tell that there's hard pus down there instead of it being regular tissues that need to stay? In such a wound, they will often continue to make stuff that needs to be continually cleaned out on a daily basis or every few days. That can go on and on for even a month.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i might be able to get one. 
so i might have to keep wound open for a month??
no, it is not under skin, it goes back towards butt and inwards, towards the bird. like underneath the leg, like the armpit area kinda, and ends a little in the actual body. i still feel swelling and something in the joint still doesnt feel right. but i guess if it is broken there's nothing that can be done that high up???
i feel stuff when pressing around there, and i thought it was bone, after some pus was pulled out i didnt feel it as much anymore, so i know it was the hardened pus i was feeling, so there COULD be more in, it feels like it because it doesnt feel the same as other leg. i am going to let the leg rest a few days i think, he seems in pain when i press around there. with all the poking and prodding, i cant blame him. he hasnt eaten much since last night, if that continues into tomorrow should i tube feed him more??
also, the hole is trying to close on the outside, it is much smaller but i am keeping a cottonball in it now. with neosporin still because that will help keep it open, yes??


----------



## Pidgey

Yep.

Try to imagine it this way: say you were in a hunched-over squat and got shot just like the bird must have. Would the path of the projectile have grazed along the outside or inside of the thigh? Just trying to get a visualization of what all damage might have occurred...

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

starts at the top of thigh and follows to the inside of thigh, ends at body instead of actual thigh, it's a pretty deep wound...
it doesnt feel as hot to the touch though, and i know thats a good sign


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I guess that there's that. It's going to take awhile on this one. But, we're a lot closer to being out of the woods then we were. Sometimes, it's getting out of the house that's the real problem.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

hello everyone,
the birdy seems ok. he is flexing his toes a bit more, still holding leg up. he's a little more frisky.
i put the cottonball in and i think he's pulling it or it's falling out. i keep having to open the hole up more, it's trying to close on the outside, but the inside hasn't closed it seems. should i tape the cottonball or guaze to keep it in??
i got more medicine from pidgey. so at least that is covered. pidgey's such a sweetheart, huh?? i need to get a pic of him so i can put it in a little picture frame and put it in the birds cage. pidgey's to pigeons what Fabio is to butter!!


----------



## mr squeaks

xxmoxiexx said:


> hello everyone,
> the birdy seems ok. he is flexing his toes a bit more, still holding leg up. he's a little more frisky.
> i put the cottonball in and i think he's pulling it or it's falling out. i keep having to open the hole up more, it's trying to close on the outside, but the inside hasn't closed it seems. should i tape the cottonball or guaze to keep it in??
> i got more medicine from pidgey. so at least that is covered. pidgey's such a sweetheart, huh?? i need to get a pic of him so i can put it in a little picture frame and put it in the birds cage. *pidgey's to pigeons *what Fabio is to butter!!


There have been times I've called him "*Guardian of Broken Pigeons*." Title just came to me one day and seemed to fit at the time...


----------



## Pidgey

They will worry stitches and pull cotton wadding and just about anything else that you don't want them doing in such circumstances. It must be feeling a lot better (the leg) and now he's fiddling with it a lot, trying to take over the treatment. I had a terrible time with Pierpont over that stuff.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

so should i tape the guaze or cotton on??


----------



## Guest

When you have to keep a dressing on an area that is prone to being taken off, buy a container of Tincture of Benzoin. It has very adhesive properties. This is a liquid that you swab AROUND the area of the wound you want to cover. Wait until the liquid dries and put the dressing on top of it. It acts like a glue and it's totally innocuous to the skin. I never leave home without it.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Moxie, I call him "our Pidgey" because he helps all of us.


----------



## Pidgey

I was kinda' preferin' the Fabio similarity, myself. Yup, Fabio's my little brother... bless his heart, such a homely child...

Pidgio


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> I was kinda' preferin' the Fabio similarity, myself. Yup, Fabio's my little brother... bless his heart, such a homely child...
> 
> Pidgio


Yeah, right...since when do you read Romance novels, Pidgey? You may be a lot of things but any resemblence to Fabio is a figment of your imagination! Little brother, indeed!  

I know Moxie meant well, but, she doesn't know you like I do...your "Guardian" title notwithstanding... 

Sorry, Moxie, but if I let Pidgey get away with his above remarks, there's no tellin' where he'll go! I seem to be the only one on this site who knows that Pidgey uses "stepping stones" just under the surface to Walk On Water!


----------



## Lovebirds

Pidgey said:


> I was kinda' preferin' the Fabio similarity, myself. Yup, Fabio's my little brother... bless his heart, such a homely child...
> 
> Pidgio



I just bet you were!! Got a REAL chuckle out of that one........


----------



## xxmoxiexx

homely?? he he he!! my little guys still waiting on that picture. i got a heart shaped frame to put it in and everything. his girlfriend flew down today and told me she thinks its a little funny, him wanting your pic and all. she's thinkin' he's turned a little funny, turning from pigeons to people is a leap i admit, extra-species affairs. he only wants pidgey though, kinda discriminatory, wouldnt ya say?? you're makin' me jealous Pidgey!! WHAT DOES PIDGEY HAVE THAT I DONT HAVE!! *sniffle sniffle* well, besides some physical differences, and i suppose some gender difference, OH MAN!! alright alright, i guess he's got a lot that i dont have, BUT I TOOK THE FREAKIN BB OUTTA YOU, DOESNT THAT COUNT FOR SOME LOVE?
my feelings are hurt, i gotta go buy some ben and jerry's to work through this one....


----------



## mr squeaks

xxmoxiexx said:


> homely?? he he he!! my little guys still waiting on that picture. i got a heart shaped frame to put it in and everything. his girlfriend flew down today and told me she thinks its a little funny, him wanting your pic and all. she's thinkin' he's turned a little funny, turning from pigeons to people is a leap i admit, extra-species affairs. he only wants pidgey though, kinda discriminatory, wouldnt ya say?? you're makin' me jealous Pidgey!! WHAT DOES PIDGEY HAVE THAT I DONT HAVE!! *sniffle sniffle* well, besides some physical differences, and i suppose some gender difference, OH MAN!! alright alright, i guess he's got a lot that i dont have, BUT I TOOK THE FREAKIN BB OUTTA YOU, DOESNT THAT COUNT FOR SOME LOVE?
> my feelings are hurt, i gotta go buy some ben and jerry's to work through this one....


Yes, *sigh* Pidgey DOES have that effect on some pijies - he's an "equal gender" rehabber! But don't give up hope! After all, Pidgey's there and you're where you are, so YOU have the advantage. Some time and LOTS of love will win the day, I'm sure.

To help things along, I will also have a talk with Pidgey's PigeonFairyGodmother. Yes, he has one and ALL pijies also have their own. 

MEANWHILE, I WILL join you with Ben and Jerry...Rocky Road, thank you very much!  I feel your pain!

OH oh...I see part of the problem! Just checked to see that you're a YANKEE! Yikes! Y'see, Pidgey is from OK and that can cause some - ah - um - problems. He is still fightin' the Civil War...just ask Pigeonmama (Daryl in MAINE!). He probably grabbed your pijie's affections deliberately!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, serious stuff now....
i think there might be a break. the bone on that leg feels different. like the bone on the thigh actually split and part of a bone is sticking out a little. it is OBVIOUSLY different from other side. also, it is still making that popping noise. and it seems to make it a lot, when he struggles agint me poking and prodding it pops.
also, more hardened pus in there. more flushes out every day. i am going to get that ear thing, that pidgey recommended, this weekend to really look in there. i used the tweezers to open the hole enough for me to see in there with a flashlight, and there is tons more stuff in there. 
ok, just curious, are there bb guns that shoot 2 bullets at the same time?? i'm just curious, really. but with all the hardness in there i did kinda wonder.
i mean, if there is, would it be possible for a bird to get shot with 2 bullets in the exact same spot?? i thought i felt something in there, but i dont want to poke around until i get the ear looky thingy.....


----------



## Pidgey

Wish I knew what to tell you. He wouldn't be able to move that leg at all if the femur was broken. Is he pushing against you with it at all when he's struggling or is he just leaving it limp for the most part but you occasionally hear the popping sound? Almost from your description, a person could imagine that it hurt the actual hip or something. You might want to trim all the feathers off of that back hip off or very short so that you can see through the skin over the hip. Discolorations might show up which could possibly be feathers and debris, or garbage buildup. It might be like Pierpont's chest, forming more garbage that needs to be hauled out from time to time.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Hi xxmoxiexx,

I reread the last few pages of the post and from your description of where the impact hole is and how far in the BB was and it's seemed trajectory I am not sure it would have been able to break the bone, although this still is a possibility. The odds are almost zero that this bird was shot in the same place twice and you feel another BB in there, most like a lump of necrotic tissue.

Last year I had to debride a bird and I actually made up my own enzyme dressing to do this. Papain the enzyme in Papaya makes up the principle active ingredient in many enzyme based debriding agents. I was thinking you could by a small bottle of Papaya enzyme, they are real cheap here in Canada less than $5.00. If you took one of these Papain enzyme pills and crushed it up and dissolved it in water you could dip a Q-tip into this and use this to clean the inside of the wound. The nice thing about Papain is that it will only breakdown dead cells or necrotic tissue, it has no effect on healthy tissue. I would leave it for say 5 minutes after cleaning with a Q-tip, the rubbing action of the Q-tip will also help pull out debris, and then flush well as you have been doing. I think this will help a lot to clean this wound up.

Ron


----------



## Pidgey

Personally, I'm not thinking it may be the best idea in a pocket-type wound. I did that on DD with that Zioxx (sp?) stuff that was the generic of the stuff that fp had talked about and it did some funny stuff. I had to debride the debrider. It caused some really weird coloring that wouldn't go away for days and much flushing. It was green and it turned all that flesh green and then it tended to coat out with white stuff excessively for days afterward.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Thanks Pidgey for the look out.

Xxmoxiexx, just continue as you where, without any debriding aids.

Ron


----------



## mr squeaks

Yeah, but is the stuff you used, Pidgey, the same as what Ron used? 

Ron's description sounds rather promising...just my opinion...


----------



## Pidgey

Ron mixes his own but it's essentially the same ingredients. The papain is a papaya enzyme. I don't remember his mentioning the copper (where the green color came from) but the deal is that it's in an almost sealed pocket. Usually, you use that stuff on a more exposed and washable wound instead of having it where it can get trapped under some far reach of skin and start causing other problems. It's really loose in that area because the femur and associated musculature in birds is mostly encased in the skin of the trunk of the body BUT it still moves pretty freely nonetheless. That's because the skin of that area isn't tied down all over the place with the fascia that you have around the skull that makes it so hard to get a wound there to close back up like the one Terry had recently. After DD and that horrible wound, I'm kinda' more acquainted with that area, especially after having seen it laid open like it was and all the grief that closure cost.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Pidgey, what I was thinking was using of just the active, Papain, without all the other ingredients I used to make up the debriding cream, such as Chlorophyllin where the green colour comes from, since my use was completely external. When you mix the Papain alone in water what you have essentially is what looks like slightly tinted water, I did not think it was wise to use anything else other than the Papain, since I was suggesting using this on a long internal wound.

Ron


----------



## xxmoxiexx

where can i get tinture of benzoin?? i went to a few pharmacies to no avail. also, no otoscope or endoscope to be found anywhere!! i was told to find a medical supply store and the only ones are far into the suburbs. 
you would think finding things in the city would be no problem, but almost everything i've needed pigeon related i cant find here.
i'm gonna try to order one off the internet i guess??


----------



## Pidgey

Sometimes, they don't call it an otoscope:

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=100125&navAction=jump&navCount=0&id=prod1491340

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

thanks pidgey!!
ok, i looked around the hip area, i didnt cut feathers, i wet them, and didnt see any brusing but i know you can miss a lot so i am going to cut them tomorrow. 
he seems to be shaking a lot. do they shake when they are scared or in pain?? or are there other symptoms i need to know about. also, he was flying FINE, more than fine when i caught him, and today i let him walk loose for first time and he doesnt fly at all. he IS limping a tiny bit on bad leg. which i take to be a good sign. but the flying thing, when i tried to grab him when he was loose, he gets scared and hops away, but cant fly. 
could this all mean something, or not??


----------



## Pidgey

He might have a different infection that the Baytril is capable of dealing with, perhaps something anaerobic. I think the only other thing you've got is the Metronidazole so you might add some of that. It'd be about the same dose as you used before. See if you can cut one of the Flagyl pills up into about 40 pieces. Just cut it in half, then quarter it, then work on one of the quarters until you've got 10 somewhat equal piles and give him one pile, two times per day. I've mostly seen the shaking with hens that had had oviduct problems and are on the backside of the healing process. It doesn't much matter if they're sitting under a heat lamp or not, they still shake, so I'm not completely certain that it has to do with them being cold like we do when we are. You have to understand that he could fly back then because he absolutely had to. He probably knows now that he's not dinner and he's being helped so he's settled in and there may be a reason why he doesn't want to (pain, arthritis). It seems to me that when I've seen the shaking, I put them on Keflex for awhile, tapered off on the Baytril and then gave it a few days and it's always gone away. Since this bird is still "open", it's one of those things where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there's still the ongoing risk of infection and it's a significant risk, it's almost a certainty, really.

I just had to do Pattie Cakers again this last month (rescue her from the loft because she was going downhill again) and she went through that same shaking thing again (she's staying inside now). I don't think I can let her do winters out in the loft anymore. She's pretty lively now and pining to get back out there but her no-good, two-bit husband has already taken up with some other floozy and is using their old nesting spot. It's kinda' sad taking Pattie Cakers out for a visit and watching her trying to get her place back. Her husband runs her off and she's sorta' getting it now but it was tough the first time.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

pidgey, poor patty cakers!! her hubby's a little tramp, huh??
ok, update:
bird is still limping bad. i FINALLY found the medi-scope thing. can you belive i couldnt find a walgreens, it's all CVS here now. luckily, one of them had them. so many stores didnt because in the city a lot of these stores are very small, limited merchandise.
anyways, the hole is too small for me to stick the thing in to see at all. is there something i could do or use/attach to end, like cone shaped, tapering at end, to use to see in there?? 
also, i really am more and more convinced every day that his leg is broke in thigh area.


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## Guest

Here is an example of Tincture of Benzoin on the web. 
http://www.brucemedical.com/bentin.html


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## xxmoxiexx

oh, ok. i have gone to a few pharmacies and cant find it. the only thing is, by the time it gets here i might not need it, thats why i'd rather get it at a pharmacy, also with shipping costs and all....


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## xxmoxiexx

if there is a broken leg in the thigh, what would any of YOU do to correct it?? or what would a vet do if you had the money to do it?? i mean, is there anything that can be done???


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## Pidgey

Well, you need to talk with Laura (EarthaPidge) about that because she IS a vet. Anyhow, it kinda' works like this: it's bad enough if it is an uncomplicated break in that area. In this case, there was ample garbage in there to cause infection as well. When birds get infections in broken bone ends, it sometimes causes a condition called "osteomyelitis", which means that the bone ends won't joint back together (non-union). There are techniques for solving that problem but it sometimes entails surgical debridement of the bone ends and then fixation through sometimes pretty wicked means to get it to work.

If you can find the area of the patella, and then the other end of the bone with your fingers and press in the middle and it moves like two separate sticks then you've got a broken bone in there. If it feels like one solid piece, then it may be. Give that a shot and see what you come up with.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

i dont know what to do. i just KNOW there is a break or something. i cant afford to take a bird to get a freakin' x-ray, so how the heck am i gonna get bones sawed and grinded down. pidgey, pretty wicked means to get it done reads "crazy wicked expensive" right?
i tried to take pics, but it doesnt show up in pics. the hole i think is getting better slowly. i gently use tweezers to scrape the pus out, and still coming out but the hole doesnt seem as deep. i've been studying the bird skeleton, and there is only two bones there, the fibula and the tibiotarsus. i have held the thigh and it doesnt give when trying to pull/push different ways to feel for break. i seem to feel them intact all the way up, but on the outside, the right side of thigh is a piece that feels like a bone sticking out, it's not subtle to the touch. the trajectory bullet took is on the INSIDE/UNDERNEATH of thigh. i can feel the actual hole/tunnel the bullet made, and it isnt by this bone thing i feel. you can actually feel it, like there is only skin between it. i dont know how to better explain it.
what should i be doing?? just waiting for the hole to get better and see if it's improved?? has anyone actually dealt with a thigh break on here before?
i dont think i'm doing any good here, i feel helpless with this, powerless to do anything.
maybe it's been so long it just healed wrong. he still has that popping sound and he's almost bald now underneath, and i cant feel anything on hip...
maybe putting him to sleep is the best thing, as much as i hate to say that and i feel like a jerk for even thinking it...


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## sabina

Moxie,
I know you're busy with school and everything, but it's sounding like if you could bring the bird down to Animal General (as pigeonperson suggested before I think), that might be the best thing. We've gotten x-rays etc there, and just paid a voluntary donation. The Chinatown bus is $30 roundtrip...I know it's a lot to do, but just wanted to bring up that option in case it's remotely feasible for you.
Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx

will they give him back to me?? are they really pigeon friendly?? what if it was a huge thing, they would fix it with just a donation?? what did you give for the x-rays?? 
sorry 20 questions, how long do you think i'd have to be in NYC for? i mean, i will go, i just dont think i would have a place to stay there if he needed to be there overnight. 
can you give me their info?? should i say he is my pet or does it matter??


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## TAWhatley

Animal General really IS pigeon friendly AND they will give the bird back as long as you can follow and do the care instructions AND if they don't feel it is a euthanasia case. You aren't actually paying the COST of the x-rays, meds, and procedures but are making a donation to them towards these expenses that they incur. Sabina and others can best tell you what an "acceptable" donation might be.

I wish I were close enough to help you with the bird you have, Moxie. 

Terry


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## Pidgey

xxmoxiexx said:


> i tried to take pics, but it doesnt show up in pics. the hole i think is getting better slowly. i gently use tweezers to scrape the pus out, and still coming out but the hole doesnt seem as deep. i've been studying the bird skeleton, and there is only two bones there, the fibula and the tibiotarsus. i have held the thigh and it doesnt give when trying to pull/push different ways to feel for break. i seem to feel them intact all the way up, but on the outside, the right side of thigh is a piece that feels like a bone sticking out, it's not subtle to the touch. the trajectory bullet took is on the INSIDE/UNDERNEATH of thigh. i can feel the actual hole/tunnel the bullet made, and it isnt by this bone thing i feel. you can actually feel it, like there is only skin between it. i dont know how to better explain it.
> what should i be doing?? just waiting for the hole to get better and see if it's improved?? has anyone actually dealt with a thigh break on here before?
> i dont think i'm doing any good here, i feel helpless with this, powerless to do anything.
> maybe it's been so long it just healed wrong. he still has that popping sound and he's almost bald now underneath, and i cant feel anything on hip...
> maybe putting him to sleep is the best thing, as much as i hate to say that and i feel like a jerk for even thinking it...


So, you've checked both the femur AND the tibiotarsus/fibula?

Where, exactly is the baldness (alopecia) underneath?

So, you feel the callus (lump on bone) on the tibiotarsis?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

i plucked all the feathers where the lump is, and yes, it feel like a piece of bone on top of tibiotarsus. it seems too big to be from the fibula. it feels like the end of a bone, but it does feel pretty big. i will take pics just to show where i am talking about today. 
i talked a little to earthapidge, and she cant tell me anything because it is illegal to do without seeing the bird, but i gave her the symptoms and she said the bones right their are called a pnematic bone, meaning air passes through it or something like that, and the popping sound COULD be a break that trapped air in his flesh. so that could be what it is...
i've checked both bones, but getting up far on the fibula, it feels like such a small bone when i get far up and close to the bullet wound, i cant tell if i'm feeling the bone or the hole...


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## Pidgey

Does the bird extend the leg in any way that gives you any hope for down the road? You see, if either the femur or the tibiotarsus, either one, were broken and not together, there would be no extension of the leg. Also, certain muscles of the leg were severed, it could be the same. A difference would probably be that you'd be able to bend a bone that was broken in the middle.

One thing right now that's worrying me is the idea of alopecia (bald spot) forming. That could signal an increasing infection inside that area as feathers will start falling out near a localized inflammation.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

the spot of broken bone isnt balding, i balded it myself by pulling the feathers there off, sorry about misunderstanding. he does use it to limp a little. barely at all though.
i am going to try to get him to animal general in NYC. it seems like the only hope.


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## xxmoxiexx

thanks terry, i know if more people were closer they would help. Sabina has offered to help get him in to animal general, and to help out with him any way she can. that is just so sweet. hopefully i can get this all done late next week. i have to swing it around class, because i'm probably flunking my spanish class because i have missed so much.


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## Pidgey

Look at it this way: if the bones are not wobbly indicating a break then there's probably nothing to be done for them short of letting it take its time to heal and regain function. Bear in mind that DD didn't regain use of the leg for months. The only reason he ever put it down was because he got tired of holding it up for a very long time. His was a similar problem in that something blew through his leg from the side and swept feathers and debris completely through the thigh muscles (of the femur) on the lower side. Those are the muscles that take the bulk of the strain for standing upright.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

i might need someone to watch him if he has to stay in new york for a few days or longer at animal general, or if he has to follow up there. any volunteers?? this is if he goes. 
pidgey, i am going to see how he does in the next few days/week, then see if he needs to make the trip. i figure you are right, he has had this injury a long time, so it might just need time. if i woulda found him when it first happened, then a different story. he still has big chunks of pus coming out. pidgey, you think it's ok to do that with the tweezers, gently scrape the inside of wound to pull pus out, it seems to be the only thing that works...
thanks everyone, for all the support, i really appreciate it.


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## Pidgey

Well, without the benefit of examining the bird, all I can tell you is that the sky is the limit on possibilities. But, it is true that an open wound tries to reorganize the exposed tissue to form the protective scarring. In this instance, the projectile brought a bunch of stuff from the outside in. Since that stuff couldn't be pushed out, the surrounding body had to presume that it was now the outside of the bird. It seems to take quite awhile for the body to figure out that it needs to go back to normal. It'd be a lot easier if bird pus was more liquidy and then you could install a shunt to drain it but that's just not the case. Can you say with any certainty that the inside area of the problem has gotten any smaller at all since you originally went in to clear it out?

Incidentally, I had to spend Wednesday evening until midnight and Thursday night until 3:00 AM in the morning on the phone with one of my company's clients troubleshooting a system problem. I'm tired.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Moxie,
I know the people at Animal General and can phone them to ask if they could keep the bird for the time needed to evaluate and treat if necessary. Do you want me to call them in advance? I don't think I should do it unless you're positive that you intend to bring the bird in so think about it and then if you are committed to do it, let me know.


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## Guest

Moxie,
This is a weekend so nobody at Animal General is in. I decided to make two calls to the hospital leaving separate messages with the two people who take care of these birds. I explained the situation and left my telephone number with them. 

I told them that a college student in Boston had picked up a bird that had been shot with a BB gun, that flushing the wound forced out the BB and a lot of debris but that the bird was still pussing. I asked if they would be willing to take the bird in for treatment and hold him until you came back from Boston to pick him up. 

I don't know what the outcome of this will be yet so I'll have to wait until they call me back but use my email address to contact me because I lost your telephone number. Send your telephone number in the email and I'll make a record of it.


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## TAWhatley

xxmoxiexx said:


> i might need someone to watch him if he has to stay in new york for a few days or longer at animal general, or if he has to follow up there. any volunteers??


Yes, one of our members has volunteered to look after the bird if needed. I will ask that person to PM you, Moxie.

Terry


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## Guest

Terry,
Just to let you know where we stand with this, I called Moxie and left a message giving her Karen's number at AG. Karen will be in on Monday. Rita is on vacation until the 12th of March.


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## TAWhatley

pigeonperson said:


> Terry,
> Just to let you know where we stand with this, I called Moxie and left a message giving her Karen's number at AG. Karen will be in on Monday. Rita is on vacation until the 12th of March.


Will do. I haven't heard anything further yet. Thanks for all your efforts to assist with this!

Terry


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## Guest

I just received a call from one of the two people who are responsible for caring for the pigeons at Animal General. She actually called me from Argentina where she is vacationing. That's how dedicated she is. She wants the bird to be seen saying that an X-Ray is imperative and if necessary, they would have to open up into the wound, clean out the bone and suture the whole thing closed. 
I called Moxie and left a message to let her know what was spoken about. Is there another place like this in the U.S.?


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## xxmoxiexx

sorry, i have been missing in action lately. I got your message pigeonperson, i cant believe they would be willing to do all of this, are you sure on that one?? i mean, most places would put him to sleep rather than spend all that time/money??
i don't think there is another place like this anywhere. do they only see wildlife, or do they see pets too?? i'm just curious is all, i mean, how do they make money?? or support the hospital??
pidgey, i can say that the hole has definately gotten smaller inside, it isnt as deep and the stuff that is coming out is less and less. it keeps trying to close up on the outside though, as i cant keep gauze in, he pulls it out!! 
I have to see when i can come, I am definately bringing him down there, i just dont know when or how yet, but i will figure it out, dont worry. 
so many people on here have offered to help, i really appreciate it. i dont know what i'd do without all the help/support on here....


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## Guest

Moxie,
This is a marvelous place offering people who want to help a pigeon in distress but don't know what to do. This particular aspect of the hospital doesn't expect to make money. I'm guessing that it comes out of a fund which is tax deductible to the hospital but that's unimportant for us to know. What is important is that high level, professional treatment is being given. I understand that they are doing and have had success with skin grafting when it's necessary. That's a learning experience and I hope they publish a paper on it one of these days.
The problem with your bird is that we don't know if there are any bone shards in there. There may not be any but an X-Ray is needed to make that determination. If there are, the neighboring tissues are being cut to pieces and they will be a constant source of irritation and infection. These birds have hollow bones and therefore a low blood supply to them. Infection that sets in can't be easily washed away by the blood stream. To top it all off, this bird may have a core of infection that is constantly producing pus. For all of these reasons, this bird has to be seen and if you can do this for nothing, it's wonderful so I hope you can get him to this place.
They want you to keep the bird on Baytril.


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## xxmoxiexx

[QUOTE=. For all of these reasons, this bird has to be seen and if you can do this for nothing, it's wonderful so I hope you can get him to this place.

Pigeonperson, what do you mean by this?? the "the bird has to be seen and if you can do this for nothing" part, specifically the "nothing" part, do you mean nothing as in paying nothing?? sorry, i just want to be clear on what you're saying..
The bird is doing good. still giving him the baytril and flagyl. he has such a small amount of pus coming out. the hole is trying so hard to close, but the outside keeps closing up, then i have to re-open it. he rips out whatever i put in there, and the other day he had a big chunk of neosporin soaked cottonball hanging off his beak, he looked like the pigeon version of santa claus!!! like a little old man.   
the leg is the same as it still has the bone chunk poking out. he doesnt use the leg any more so than he has been. the hole though, i can actually feel a bone piece or something in there, but i dont want to mess with it. i dont know if its supposed to be there and part of the actual bone, or if its a piece floating in there. or it might be a tendon or something. but i can feel a couple places with the tweezers that are hard and may be bone also.
I just cant believe animal general does all of this stuff for donations, i am amazed, and quite honestly, i still am in disbelief. every time you all have told me they really do this, it chips away at that disbelief. i guess i have just been told "no" or "euthanasia" or "$500" by so many places that it seemed impossible. but just knowing a place like this does exist is like a dream come true, really. It restores some faith i had lost in the world. plus knowing that for every jerk that shoots poor birds, there is people like you willing to work harder and faster than the jerk with the BB gun. 
keep up the good fight!!


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## TAWhatley

It's REAL, Moxie .. let's try to get the bird to Animal General!  My vet would also see and treat the bird (not for free but for cheap), but it's a really long trip from where you are  

Terry


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## sabina

Animal General is a full-scale veterinary hospital that does charge for all pet visits and services. But they have a special program for wildlife:

http://wildbirdfund.com/

Wild Bird Fund, Inc. 
The Wild Bird Fund, Inc. is a non-profit (501C3) organization that provides assistance for wild birds. From licensed wildlife rehabilitators, veterinarians, veterinary nurses, to desk staff, all of Animal General's staff constitute a network of dedicated people who volunteer emergency and rehab care for city birds and wildlife. Animal General donates all costs for these services. Caring members of the community provide additional foster care, donations, and chauffeuring services for patients to other rehab centers. The rehabilitators at Animal General see wild bird cases by appointment only. Monday through Saturday, from 1pm to 3pm. We encourage you to contact us if you have an interest in fostering wildlife in need. See also "How to rescue baby birds" [ pdf file ].

This is Animal General's website:
http://www.animalgeneral.com/

What pigeonperson meant was that the bird needs to be evaluated (with x-ray etc), and if you have it done at Animal General, it would be great since you don't have to pay anything there. 

hope that helps!

Sabina


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## mr squeaks

That sounds wonderful...

I DO hope the feral pigeon is classified as a "wild bird"....


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## sabina

Yup, we've brought all our rescued pigeons there..Rita (one of the rehabbers) is quite partial to pijies!


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## mr squeaks

*EXCELLENT!!*


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## Guest

Moxie,
From what you have written, I'm more concerned for bone shards than the pus.
Try to get an appointment for a day you can make it down here.


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## Pidgey

Just out of curiosity, Moxie, does this bump move around? Every broken bone that I've had to treat, with the sole exception of Bread's leg, has formed a callus that stayed for a very long time.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

no, the bump does not move around. when i squeeze the bone right underneath it, he seems in pain, squirming a little..
pidgey, how did you treat the broken bone birdy's you have had???


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## Pidgey

I splinted them if they were legs and bound them if they were wings. For the legs, they were always on the tibiotarsus (that doesn't mean they don't break other bones--merely that that's the only thing I've had to treat) and the wings have been mostly the radius, ulna or both together. There have been a few shoulders (Coracoid) but there's not a lot to be done about those without getting pretty radical.

Splinting legs work best when the breaks are below the tibiotarsus midshaft. When they start getting higher, it's getting into areas that you can't easily immobilize seeing as how you can't get splinting materials completely encompass that area of bone like with a break of the femur. In such cases, it gets into one of those deals where it's the tough call whether super-wild techniques like using an external apparatus with rods driven through the bone (and I mean a hole drilled through and wires or screws threaded or inserted through the skin, leg and bone fragments) or whether the bird's just going to have to be given enforced immobility so that the bone heals on its own. That happens in the real world quite a bit. 

Yours, of course, is a slightly different case in that all that crap was forced into the wound and made a huge abscess-like mess. It has been so long that the bones, if originally broken, should have knitted together and easily have made an awful bone callus that'll be there for months to years. Some of the broken wings that I've had have kept bumps on them to this day and some have "remodeled" very well. That is the process of the bones slowly making their way back to some proximity of their original shape. It's the function and use of the bone that gives it its shape and bones are always in the process of deconstructing and reconstructing. That's how they are able to remodel.

Now, another direct question: has the bird EVER extended the leg of its own volition, either to stretch it or set it down, up to this point? Much earlier, the only thing that we'd heard was that you could pull it down and the leg would slowly retract as if it were putty with some memory. Please explain exactly how it's different at this point, if any.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

yes, pidgey, he has set it down. but when i pull it, it does the same thing, pulls back with some memory, slowly.
i just talked to someone up here at "a place for wild birds" and she feels that it is a bone callus. I am trying to get it either to her or to another rehabber i just found for them to palpatate the bone. i called AG and they didnt sound too thrilled about the whole situation. so i'm trying to see what i can get done here as a different option.
Pidgey, the people i talked to said the same as you, that the bone callus will eventually heal over a long time. also, they said any bone shards will eventually either work out, or most likely become part of the callus.


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## sabina

Moxie,
yeah we couldn't get Oscar into AG this week either, they said just to bring the poop sample, not the bird! apparently this is not the week for wild birds (maybe since one of the rehabbers away). anyway, it's much better for you if you can get things taken care of without having to travel (even though we were looking forward to meeting you  )--hope it works out with one of the rehabbers there!
Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx

apparently, the legs are not a pnematic bone?? Only the wings are pnematic? Or at least that is what a rehabber up in New Hampshire told me, and she went and got her avian book out to read and re-assure me it wasnt. Or does every avian book state different facts?? can some people look in their book and see what it says about pnematic bones, because i know someone on here looked in a book and found that out, so maybe just mis-information being published???
also, if it is the hip, nothing can be done at this stage of the game??

Pidgey, what do you think on what my last post stated??


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/yr9aer


The bones of flighted birds are unique in that they have evolved some pneumatic bones that are hollow and contribute to the bird being light enough to fly. The bones of the pelvic girdle, some ribs, the humerus and the femur all are pneumatic, and contain large air-filled medullary canals that are involved with the respiratory cycle during flight. The bones of birds are relatively brittle and have thin cortices. They also contain more calcium than mammalian bone, which tends to make them more brittle and prone to developing multiple fractures at one site. The distal portion of the leg, below the tibiotarsus, has very little soft tissue covering bone, and the proximal half of the humerus also has little soft tissue covering bone, so fractures in these areas are often open and comminuted. When a pneumatic bone is fractured, often subcutaneous emphysema occurs, but it usually resolves within a day, without treatment.


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## xxmoxiexx

also, pidgey, should i stop the meds?? Also, if it is the hip, i was also told if it was a dislocated hip he wouldnt be able to walk, but what if it is a broken or fractured hip??
and if it was a badly broken leg he wouldnt even limp on it?? what is everyones experience with this??
i'm just trying to run this all by you all because it seems like there is too much opposing information around. one vet/rehabber says one thing, the other says the total and complete opposite fact.

thanks everyone...

thanks pigeonperson!! but i wasnt referring to you above, i was referring to someone else. i'm actually going to erase that because it sounds too combative..


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## Guest

Moxie,
I didn't understand why you were going into the topic of pneumatic bones no matter who said it. The only reason I mentioned the subject was to point out that it isn't easy to get rid of an infection in an area that doesn't have a good blood supply and that included pneumatic bones.
All of this doesn't have anything to do with status of the bone condition in this bird around the area of the Patella. How can you stop the medications when the bird is still generating pus? No matter how small the amount is, there is still an infection going on in inside. 
I don't know the condition of the bones in there. Nobody else does either. An X-Ray would tell what is going on. Please don't lose sight of the trees because of the forest. Stay on point. It's come down to a situation where you either try to get the bird to somebody who can X-Ray the area or you take the chance and don't and hope that everything will eventually be all right. I don't know what else to say about this.


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## xxmoxiexx

the reason i brought it up was because i am trying to figure out what the popping sound is. i havent stopped meds, i was asking if i should, thats why i'm asking on here, because i was told to stop meds by someone and if i took them to heart i would of stopped the meds and not asked on here. This lady runs a bird rehabbing FACILITY up here. but trust me, i value the opinion of many rehabbers versus the opinion of few. Thats why i'm asking.
also, i was bringing it up because of all the different opinions out there on pigeons. and honestly, because i didnt get such a enthused response from AG i'm worried that they might turn me down or something. I am just seeing what different options are here, and there isnt many.


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## Pidgey

Well, a lot of the time, there just aren't, when it comes down to it.

Anyhow, I wouldn't stop the meds until the rest of the crap is out.

As to the popping, there are a few birds that pop when there's nothing wrong with them other than that they seem to tense when you pick them up. It's kind of a "thunk" sound. I'm not as worried about that.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Pidgey,

We're all on the same page with this bird so I'm not afraid to say that I'm worried about the popping sound. If the bursa has been ruptured, it might explain that the bones of the joint are rubbing against each other without lubrication. It's all a big guess and even an X-ray would probably not show that. Maybe it will heal in time and maybe it won't. If it doesn't, this bird will be stuck with arthritis for the rest of its life.

On another matter, if a shard gets caught in the calcification process of the bone as it heals, it could be ok to leave it. If the thing doesn't and floats, it could cause a lot of damage on the way out but that's not necessarily true either. What if it's a pointed bone? If it isn't ground down, it will cause constant irritation of the neighboring tissue. 

Moxie,
I know you were turned off a bit by the lack of enthusiasm from AG but we know that you didn't get a no. Only you know your schedule and if you can make it down here or not. They would never turn you down but the scheduling could be very hard on you.


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## Pidgey

Methinks that if there were a comminuted fracture (a bunch of pieces; all messed up), it should show up by way of a greatly foreshortened leg segment. Moxie, can you measure and compare all of the bone segments lengths of each leg and see if anything on the bum leg is drastically short? Just measure from joint-to-joint.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, i tried to measure, and it seems likr the hurt leg is the tiniest bit shorter, like 1/4 inch, but let me try it again tomorrow...
i attached 2 pics, one is a beauty shot, and the other is the bump on leg. and pidgey, i think he does have a bit of alopcia in the spot of bump. his feathers i plucked have grown in some, but that one spot hasnt, so i think i just didnt notice it was bald before....


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## Pidgey

Pretty good bump, huh? I've seen them get bumps on their wings from a broken radius and ulna that looked that bad. One of the ways that they heal infections is to encapsulate them in calcium. It's like making a rock. If the infection was in the working muscles of the leg, it might have immobilized it to the point of not being functional anymore. That may or may not be a permanent condition. Some or most of the birds that I've had and have who have experienced problems like that have taken immense amounts of time to get some or all function back. If grasping an individual segment by both ends and giving various torque doesn't demonstrate a discontinuity (it's all solid as a board) then you can figure that the bone is healed and now it's going to take time to get anything substantial back in terms of movement and strength.

Lin and I found a rooster in a park in a real small town once that was obviously in distress. It was sitting down by a tree and I got within three feet of it before he finally stood slowly up. I could see that the one leg was terribly crooked. There weren't any houses around so we knew he was homeless and not doing so well. You wouldn't believe how hard of a time we had catching that one-legged chicken.

We took him home and put him in the loft for the time being. You never saw anyone so happy to see such high-quality chicken feed in your life. Peck and cluck. Peck and cluck. We kept him for a week and took him to a vet before taking him on out to a friend's place for his new life. We X-Rayed the leg and there was a bullet still in there. The leg had fractured and had set up pretty badly too long before we came along to do anything about. We'd already made such good friends with "Henry" that he'd stand on my arm while I steadied him and I could talk to him within inches of his face and he'd kiss me. The vet was beyond amazement. 

Anyhow, he stayed there in a little pen for awhile for safety while they hoped his getting around would get a little better but he remained a gimp. We went to visit and take him treats sometimes and I could get down into the pen and he'd sidle up to me as close as he could get and I swear to you that he loved getting hugged. That was one animal that you could tell beyond a shadow of a doubt knew what we did for him and appreciated it.

But that leg was bent, it stayed bent and there was a pretty big callus to boot. He pretty much walked like a man with a bum knee but he could run when he had to.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

oh, pidgey, that is just too cute!! a homeless chicken? well, i guess it happens, so someone tried to kill it.... poor guy. or girl?? arent guy chickens roosters? so you still visit him, thats sweet of you!!

my guy's still a little freaked out by me, but i really dont blame him. i have another guy here, just a string injury, but the toe hasnt fallen off yet, and it's been WAY TOO COLD to let him go. so at least old limpy's got a friend. it's so cute, when i take him out and wrap him in the towel to poke and prod, he tries to get his head up and will turn his head almost completely around to see what the other pigeon is up to. when i let him make a quick walk, he goes right over to the other cage and just stands there. 
so, i'm still seeing how everything goes in the next few days, and what my plans are....


----------



## Pidgey

At the moment, I've got one in with a broken leg that's taped, a possible PMV bird (it's not as bad here) and an orphaned chick that's three days old at this point. That one goes with me to work every day, incubator and all. He's over twice his hatch weight at this point. It's busy.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

do you have pics?? where did you get the chick at??
i have a quick question, not about the broken leg bird, another i have, the string injury one i'm waiting for the toe to fall off, his wings twitch ever so slightly, is that normal??


----------



## Pidgey

It was my own birds that orphaned the chick. I'm not sure that I've got a suitable pair at that stage of pigeonmilk production or I'd adopt him out right now. 

There's not much to see on the bird with the broken leg. He stays down real well and doesn't get too fussy when you're fixing his food and water although I did get the slightest growl this morning for doing something wrong, as he saw it. All a picture would show would be the masking tape on the leg and the feathers cover that over pretty well, especially when he's hunkered down. I got him at the vet's when I took Unie in as a professional courtesy kinda' thing.

You might have to describe the wing twitching thing. Sometimes, they are just a tad upset that you're near (or another bird that they don't like) and then the wing tip twitches like "tick... tick... tick..." about 1 to 2 times per second, or so. If you push it in a case like that, they might escalate to biting, wing-flipping and territorial rookooing. Does that sound like what you're seeing?

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

WHAT ABOUT PICS OF THE CHICK?? oh, yes, that does sound like what it is, 1-2 times a sec, and he starts to growl when i'm like 2 feet away, then he flys all over his cage when i reach in, hs escaped a few times when i had to change water. he's a toughy. i dont blame him though, it was the worst string injury i've seen in reagards to it was like if someone tied your shoelaces together, he couldnt make steps at all. he's only losing one toe from the deal, so in THAT regard it's good, but i swear it was about half a spool of thin BUT strong thread. it was hard to get it all off. he sure could fly though, took a bit to catch him....
oh, do boy and girls growl??


----------



## Aias

pidgey, no pictures of henry? i love chickens! here is a photo of mom and kid in culebra, puerto rico:












Pidgey said:


> ....
> 
> Lin and I found a rooster in a park in a real small town once that was obviously in distress. It was sitting down by a tree and I got within three feet of it before he finally stood slowly up. I could see that the one leg was terribly crooked. There weren't any houses around so we knew he was homeless and not doing so well. You wouldn't believe how hard of a time we had catching that one-legged chicken.
> 
> We took him home and put him in the loft for the time being. You never saw anyone so happy to see such high-quality chicken feed in your life. Peck and cluck. Peck and cluck. We kept him for a week and took him to a vet before taking him on out to a friend's place for his new life. We X-Rayed the leg and there was a bullet still in there. The leg had fractured and had set up pretty badly too long before we came along to do anything about. We'd already made such good friends with "Henry" that he'd stand on my arm while I steadied him and I could talk to him within inches of his face and he'd kiss me. The vet was beyond amazement.
> 
> Anyhow, he stayed there in a little pen for awhile for safety while they hoped his getting around would get a little better but he remained a gimp. We went to visit and take him treats sometimes and I could get down into the pen and he'd sidle up to me as close as he could get and I swear to you that he loved getting hugged. That was one animal that you could tell beyond a shadow of a doubt knew what we did for him and appreciated it.
> 
> But that leg was bent, it stayed bent and there was a pretty big callus to boot. He pretty much walked like a man with a bum knee but he could run when he had to.
> 
> Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

AIAS!! thats so cute!! is that where you are from?? puerto rico? 
you can just see the baby taking the un-sure steps. is that ice in the pic? it cant be, right?
anyways, today after i fed my pigeon he got away from me and i cant catch him. so i'm just letting him be. but after i fed/medicated him he was standing up and kept opening and closing his beak, and then he would open his beak and shake his head like he was shaking something out.... then he stopped. is this something to be concerned about?? and pidgey, do you think i should stop the flagyl?? and also, is there another way to give him the baytril besides tube-feeding it to him?


----------



## Pidgey

Who's getting the Flagyl at this point, BB? Flagyl has a few nice effects including penetrating necrotic tissue real well. That is, it actually diffuses into necrotic tissue and has activity and there aren't many that do that. Earlier, we were picking garbage out of there and you're getting to the point where there's not much left to pull out, right? It should be getting close to the time to let that one close up if it's ready. If it's really close, then you can stop with the Flagyl.

When you mean tube-feeding Baytril, does that mean you're using a real tube to get it all the way to the crop? I usually just take those little 3/10ths cc syringes and drop it in the back of their throats.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, the hole is almost closed. it scabs up and i just open the scab to make sure it heals from the inside out, but it is almost closed. 
yes, yube feeding it all the way into the crop, mixed with kaytee, but he's eating, so i dont need the kaytee.
ok, if i just use one of those 3/10 cc syringes and squirt into throat, how do i make sure i dont get it into his airway?? i'm really worried on that one...


----------



## Pidgey

Well, you're only talking a drop or two. I usually straighten their neck up and do what my vet taught me--aim it at the back and eject it hard enough to squirt and coat the back of the throat. Aspirating medication isn't the same as aspirating food, anyhow.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

oh, it wont hurt him?? aspirating him with medication??
so, i'm gonna try to get him to someone up here to palpatate (feel) the bone, IF they have time. so i'll see if i can get to them, they are way out in nowhere massachussets, and get a ride on their schedule.
if not, monday might be an option for NYC.... i'm just curious how he will react to a 4-5 hour bus ride. i mean, will he handle it ok?? is there anything i should do or get for the ride to make it more comfy?? like, how do i keep water in there without it spilling all over him??


----------



## Pidgey

He's not going to need water during a ride that short. I usually just carry them in a carrier (which can be one of those miniature nylon duffels with handles, for that matter) and put a towel donut in there for them to lay in and they're usually cool.

Whenever they aspirate a drop of medication, they just cough for a little bit but there's usually no harm done (it would depend on the medication). It's when they inhale a bunch of liquid food or something like that that you've got a real problem or it kills them very quickly. Any food getting down there becomes a food source for bacterial or fungal infections if it's not enough to kill them outright. It is possible for them to actually form a granuloma to encapsulate something like that, too, and go on to live a normal life. But, it's not going to happen with Baytril or several other liquid antibiotics.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

thanks Pidgey!!
ya, i need my cat carrier, so i'm gonna have to find a duffel to use...


----------



## Aias

cute huh?!
i fed them everyday while i was there, they are everywhere and most of them live as feral flocks! i am not from puerto rico moxxie, i am from nicaragua, just down the street.



xxmoxiexx said:


> AIAS!! thats so cute!! is that where you are from?? puerto rico?
> you can just see the baby taking the un-sure steps. is that ice in the pic? it cant be, right?
> anyways, today after i fed my pigeon he got away from me and i cant catch him. so i'm just letting him be. but after i fed/medicated him he was standing up and kept opening and closing his beak, and then he would open his beak and shake his head like he was shaking something out.... then he stopped. is this something to be concerned about?? and pidgey, do you think i should stop the flagyl?? and also, is there another way to give him the baytril besides tube-feeding it to him?


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, i was supposed to get a ride to a rehabber today, BUT my friend flaked on me. i need new friends...
so, another friend is gonna lend my boyfriend his van, but we'll see if it even makes the trip!! ya, it's that bad. he uses it for moving jobs, so it's a beater... i dont care if it's a carpet with training wheels at this point though!!
so, the trip to NYC is gonna be put on hold until i see what this lady says tomorrow. if things look like i gotta go to NYC, then i'll have to do a rush job on tuesday instead of doing it in 2 days...
wish me luck in making it out there on the training wheel equipped carpet...


----------



## Pidgey

Life on a shoestring, huh?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, looks like i dont need to go to NYC. the bone is broken, and as Pidgey and a few of you suspected it is a callus that has to heal over time. He has been using this leg more, but she said he is still in pain from all the prodding, so it will take a while for him to use it fully. she said x-rays aren't needed, as there is nothing they can do for him, apart from re-breaking and putting pins in, and she said that the only way she would do that is if the leg was broken so badly that it formed a weird, un-natural angle and severely inhibited his walking. as going though all that surgery, you have to weigh the pros against the cons, and even if they did that he will still have problems with that leg, so it might only make it better slightly. also, any bone splinters she said will most likely have already become part of the callus already.
so, she did splint the break, and wants me to keep it like that for about 10 days. she said the hole is no longer infected, but to keep on the baytril a few more days.
This lady was super nice, and she had a few different kinds of birds there, a woodpecker, a robin, 2 different kinds of doves, a pigeon, and a catbird. she also owns a maroon bellied conar or something like that, dont know if i'm saying or spelling that right!! she is very dedicated to birds in general. so she said if i ever have a problem to call her. only problem is getting out there for me...
my poor guy hates that splint!! wish me luck with everything!! at least this incident has introduced me to a few rehabbers up here, even if they live in the sticks, it's better than nothing!!


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## Guest

Moxie,
Do you think this bird will ever become releasable?


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## sabina

Yeaaa Moxie!! That's excellent. i'm so glad you were able to get the bird evaluated and that it sounds like the pijie will heal ok on his own! and that you made a valuable connection at the same time! Yeaa! You did so good, right from the beginning with this pijie! I am very happy for you right now  
Sabina


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## Pidgey

It's only been a month since this deal first started. I'd bet that he's going to be walking with it fairly well in the next month or two. Of course, he might not be for the next 10 days with that stuff on him.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

depends, I guess, but she said it looks like he'll be releasable no problem. But i'm gonna see how he recovers in the next month and make that decision...
Thanks Pigeonperson for all of your help and talking me through all of my frantic e-mails and phone calls!! You and many others have been right on about the diagnosis, medication and care for him. I just want everyone to know how much i appreciate it all!! And of course Pidgey, who was the first one to help me when i happened across this site, and who has been there ever since, never turning his back on me. and everyone else who offered help to with the little guy, Sabina, Aias, LITTLE BIRD, Terry, just to name a few!!!
all of us pigeon people gotta stick together, ya know!! and so far you have all shown me that support!! THANK YOU!!!!!

wow Pidgey, it has been a month!! i've been telling people that it's been 2 - 2 and 1/2 weeks!! well, i guess i've only had the BB out a few weeks, so that means he needs more time, because no healing was happening with the BB in still..


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## Guest

No Moxie,
Thank you for taking in this victim of human cruelty, for working professionally to get all that debris out, for medicating and curbing a killer infection, for getting him to a rehabilitator. You're one hell of a great human being so thank you.


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## mr squeaks

What a lovely thing to say, Pigeonperson! I agree! Been following the thread too.

*!!WELL DONE, MOXIE!!!*


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## Reti

That is wonderful news, moxie.
I am so happy for this little guy. You've done a fantastic job.

Reti


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## Skyeking

I'm glad to hear the update, thank you for all you have done for this bird, moxie.


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## xxmoxiexx

*update on BB*

so, the hole still isnt closed up!! still some pus coming out, and STILL on baytril!! now there is what appeared to be a bump where a feather would grow in, well, now it just looks like a big pimple. it is about 1/2 an inch above BB hole, and in the opposite direction of the trajectory of bullet. so, when i was pulling out more pus, i realized the hole goes a little bit in that direction. could this be a fistula or small abcess working it's way to the top??
and why isnt the hole closing?? the rehab lady up here said i had to get some stuff to put in it, i forget what it's called, but it promotes healing...


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## Pidgey

It's better if the abscesses go outward rather than inward. It doesn't surprise me. The body has a difficult time getting stuff out that way, you know, so it usually happens slowly. That "pimple" might eventually open up and start dumping stuff out. It may also heal better after that. Is he using the leg any more than he was?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

so i should leave the "pimple" alone, and let it do it's thing?
what about the BB hole not closing yet? should i still give the baytril?


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## Pidgey

Kinda' hard to tell. If I had the bird, I'd probably have shifted medication to something with a different spectrum of activity, like Keflex. I don't think you've had that option. Anyhow, can you tell whether the "pimple" is shedding feathers, is it balding (alopecia)? Does it have a funny, unwholesome-looking color under the surface? How big is it? You see, it's a little difficult to advise on it without a clearer picture of exactly what it is you're dealing with.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

well, im having trouble posting pics again, but i was feeling the "pimple" to see if it was hard or soft underneath, or a feather coming in, and some pus started to leak out, it wasnt watery or rock hard. so i squeezed it and like 2 inches of a thin steam of pus came out, like a thick string of it. so i guess it is an abcess or fistula, what should i do about this??


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## xxmoxiexx

http://www.msnusers.com/pigeonbrokenleg/hurtpigeon.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=23

ok, here's the clearest photo i got of it, sorry if it's not that good..
oh, and pidgey, it is bald there, no feathers have come in at all, where other places they have come in. in the photo, that whole spot is bald, what does that mean, infection??


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## jazaroo

This may be a little clearer.

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx

oh, thanks Ron, what did you do to it? my hands look so flourescent in that pic, huh??


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## jazaroo

No problem, just cleaned it up a little in Photoshop.

Ron


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## Pidgey

Well, now that you've opened it, it should continue to drain. You might try looking inside to see if there's anything in there that needs to come out. You could flush it with saline from a syringe, too.

The lack of feather growth indicates local inflammation, whatever the cause. That takes awhile to clear up. Considering the amount of crap you got out of this wound in the first place, it doesn't surprise me. Probably better keep up on the Baytril.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

ya, when i found that the hole goes in the OTHER direction too, i pulled big chunks of pus from there. when i put my tweezers too far that way though, it really kills him,he squirms like crazy and i can hear him opening and closing his beak. poor, poor, thing.
he IS walking so much better though. still some limping, but boy, he's gettin' it! he's the blackest of black too. i've NEVER seen a pigeon that black before!!


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## Pidgey

Oh, that does sound good! I don't think he was really walking the last time that you mentioned how the leg was working, merely that he'd put it down or stretch it outwards a bit. So, he's really walking, eh? Oh, that is SO good to hear!

Pidgey


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## Guest

Moxie.
When you insert septic tweezers, there's no question that you're also scratching tissue and when that happens, aside from that he is in agony from it, the infection is moving into those scratches. If the infection could have gone away, this accidental tweezing of soft tissue kept it going. Now, the bacteria have diffused through the neighboring areas and it probably turned chronic.

When you squeeze out pus, the neighboring cells can burst and the bacteria will invade the damaged cells causing more infection. 

The only way to clear this up was surgery which would be needed to cut and scrape out infected tissue. Baytril or any other antibiotic is not going to stop this. The medication can only go so far and it had to be given in conjunction with a surgical procedure to clean out the entire area. Now, it may be too late. What you feel and see is nothing compared to what you don't feel or see. The only thing Baytril probably did was to keep the bacteria out of the blood stream.

I can't tell you what to do with your time, energy and resources. If it were possible for you to go to AG or a vet, then, it would have been good. I just don't know if it would help now.


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## xxmoxiexx

i didnt go to AG because i took this lady to her word. she looked in the area and said there is no more infection. well, obviously that isnt true.
this is bad, bad, timing because i have a mid-term next week, that was already re-sceduled from last week because i didnt study enough and my professor is giving me a break. so i dont know what to do?
i already put this class as second priority to this bird, and now i'm failing my class. 
the one side is healing, but i just found this other side. do you think there's any chance that since i just pulled the pus from that side that it might heal?
should i try a different antibiotics? pidgey, you said keflex, is cypro in the same family?


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## Guest

Moxie,
You come first. You have a long road ahead of you no matter what profession you enter. Your classes are more important and it's very rough to burn the candle at both ends so if the bird doesn't make it, you did your best. We don't save them all. 

It's impossible to tell you what is going to happen with this bird because none of us know what the state of the tissues is now. If you can't get this bird to a professional, then do the best you can. I would stop tweezing and flush only. I think tweezing is doing more harm than good and causing him a lot of pain. Keep him on an antibiotic and hope for the best.


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## Feefo

Hi Moxie,

Was the flagyl that you were using on the PMV pigeon liquid? If so that can be used topically.

It is true that digging around can create infection or push it in but that is not a death sentence. Injured pigeons are exposed to a lot more than that.

Try flushing the wound twice a day with sterile saline and then cover it with antibacterial gel and place a little sterile gauze on it. You could also try switching the antibiotic to Clavamox if you have any. That is what the vets here would prescribe.

I leave my rescues alone when I am not treating them and this bird should only need attention for a few minutes at the beginning and at the end of the day. So concentrate on yoiur studies.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx

is cypro in the same family as keflex? what about amoxicillan (however you spell it!!)??
and yes, it's just that between work and school, i have so little time. i'll make do though, i always do somehow.


----------



## Pidgey

No, Keflex and Cipro are different and have overlapping spectrums but Keflex gets anaerobes that Cipro doesn't. However, if the bird was forming an abscess, that's not that bad as the body is just trying to push the bad stuff outside. Given time, it will probably do just fine knocking the stuff out. He's really in far better shape than he was and now that the duct is open it oughta' start getting better, slowly but surely.

Amoxicillin would probably do just fine if you've got some. It's a good thing you're young, since you're burning the candle at both ends like that.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Hi Moxie,

Clavamox is Amoxycillin with Clavulanic acid. The Clavulanic acid extends the spectrum .so if yiou can lay your hands on some it would be great.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

How expensive is that stuff over there, Cynthia? A couple of years ago, they gave my grandmother a prescription for a course of that and I asked the pharmacist what it would cost if she was buying it outright--$90. I'm sure that the veterinary version would be cheaper but I haven't looked into it since I've got a pretty good supply of straight Amoxicillin. Seems like I've seen that stuff (Amoxicillin) somewhere here over-the-counter for pets but I can't swear to it. I'm not sure how far Moxie can press that pharmacist friend of hers.

Has she ever said what she was majoring in? Seems like she oughta' steer towards being a vet...

Pidgey


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## sabina

augmentin is cheaper now than in the past since there's generic available now. 

i can always send moxie whatever drugs she needs, so let me know.

sabina


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## Feefo

A 4 day course costs £.1.60, so that would be approximately $3.20 when I buy it online, if I buy it from the vet it costs the equivalent of $4.00 for a course.

The problem here is that it needs a prescription. I seem to remember that Pigifan bought some online from abroad.

Baytril is the expensive one here, over $100 for a bottle of the 2.5 % solution from the vet and about $50 online.

Cynthia


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## sabina

I have Augmentin 875/125 tablets. But I can get another strength/liquid form, whatever is better. Or Keflex or Cipro. I'm going to send Moxie some stuff for the PMV bird tomorrow anyway, so let me know so I can go to the pharmacy today, if needed.
Sabina


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## Pidgey

Well, if you've already connected with her and are sending a care package, feel free to include whatever other medications you think she might could use. She certainly seems the type to "have further need" given her activities so far. The reference that I've got for Amoxicillin Sodium+Clavulanate Potassium is for 125 mg/kg, PO, BID (125 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of pigeon, orally, twice daily) so one of those 875/125 tablets would make 11-1/2 days for a 350 gram bird, if divided exactly into 23 portions. Experience says that that's just one of many dosing protocols, probably for a heavy gut infection. I'm sure that lesser ones exist for other things, this would probably be one of them.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Here's where I get my Augmentin from:

http://www.medsmex.com/store3/customer/search.php?substring=augmentin

I've never had any problems w/product or delivery.

Thomas Laboratories carries Amoxicillin and Cephalexin which can be purchased through the
link that Brad added to the Pigeon Supply Houses (from me) in the Resource Section.
The Resource link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

And the VetSupply link:

http://atozvetsupply.com/Products.html?v=c&scat=3036

They also have a good deal on syringes as well.

fp


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## sabina

Well I'll send a few tab of Augmentin. In terms of pigeon meds, we have Appertex and Enroxil. She already has enough Enroxil/Baytril, right? I'm sure she could use the Appertex in the future.


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## feralpigeon

Sabina, what about Flagyl and what wormers do you have that are pigeon
friendly?

fp


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## sabina

i have ivermectin drops. i could get some flagyl.


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## sabina

I was looking around and found some spartrix (carnidazole). so i'll send spartrix, appertex, enroxil (she said she's running out of baytril), and augmentin. we didn't go to the pharmacy today, but if you think i should get her some flagyl or keflex, i can. the carnidazole should have the same spectrum as the metronidazole, right?


----------



## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> I was looking around and found some spartrix (carnidazole). so i'll send spartrix, appertex, enroxil (she said she's running out of baytril), and augmentin. we didn't go to the pharmacy today, but if you think i should get her some flagyl or keflex, i can. the carnidazole should have the same spectrum as the metronidazole, right?


It's in the same family as Metronidazole and one would think that there's a 
spill over for anaerobic bacteria similar to that which Metronidazole is noted for.
Yet in my many searches I've never found the web pages that testify to this as with Metronidazole/Flagyl. If you are putting together a care package and it's
not a hardship in terms of going out of your way, then I'd toss in some Flagyl
for good measure even if Spartrix is getting included. Yes on the Keflex, can you get her a wormer in pill format? Something like let's say, Pyrantel Pamoate (20mg)?

fp


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## Guest

Cynthia,
Could you take advantage of this place?

http://www.medsmex.com


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## Feefo

Helen once told me that it is illegal to get prescription drugs from abroad and that there is a hefty fine to pay. So there would be a risk involved and I would suffer from constant anxiety.

Fortunately my vet likes pigeons and will prescribe for mine when I need something. With the prescription I can go to wherever the meds are cheapest.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, sorry i've been MIA, and i wont be on much for the next few days, i have to study.
anyways, my pharmacist friend has been MIA also, he isnt actually a pharmacist anymore, but did some sneakiness to get me meds before. but i cant get in touch with him. he might be traveling or something, he doed that on occasion.
so, Sabina has offered to send meds, as you all know. just as long as you all figure out what i need to give both birds.
oh, Pidgey, my major is undecided for now. i still dont know what i want to do for a career. getting in to vet school is very hard, too. and i've thought about it, but i dont know if i could handle all those dead animals.


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## xxmoxiexx

*Uh Oh!! Bad News!!*

HELP HELP HELP!!!!!
so, i know we all decided not to tweeze on BB, and i havent, but there has been some pus working its way out now that its been built up a few days, well, i didnt probe, but i pulled the stuff that was showing, and guess what, A FREAKIN PIECE OF BONE CAME OUT!! A SPLINTER!! I"M FREAKING OUT!!!
he still uses leg, so i know its not a huge piece, but i really think he's gonna have to go to the vet!!
DAMN!! I SHOULDA GONE TO AG WHEN I HAD THE CHANCE!!
the soonest i could go is next weekend, i'm gonna see if i can get him seen up here somehow. 
WHAT COULD THIS MEAN!! why still pus!! and BONE!! poor poor baby!


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## Feefo

Hi Sabina,

Are you flushing the wound with sterile saline? You have to put some in a syringe and really shoot it into the hole. Do it as many times as you thinh necrssary then smear either hydrocollod gel or antibiotic cream thickly on the wound site.

Digging at the wound with anthing. even a cotton bud, can push debris back into the wound but if you see anthing poking out you can rnove it with sterilised forceps.

When I had a pigeon with a bullet wound I plucked all the feathers around 't see the wound itself and found that loads of feathers that I couldn't see had been rammed into the wound. You might find the same.

The wound needs to repair from the inside out, so leave it open and clean daily so that you can see hpw it is healing. Eventuall you should see smooth clean skin.

Try not to panic about the bone splinter. I don't know how that will affect the pigeon's ability to walk, but one of my rescues had been hit by a car, a bone had broken and was sticking right out of the wound. That pigeon not only survived, it was able to fly and cope with gale force winds when it escaped one day.

Helen (Nooti) also saved a half eaten pigeon by flushing the wounds, mearing an antibacteria gel on it and giving antibiotics.

Are you still giving it antibiotics?

Cynthia


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## Guest

Moxie,
There are two kinds of pus formations in a bird. The first is a loose, semi-liquid that forms in soft tissue. The second is a hardened, encapsulated form that tends to cling to bone. You can't flush out the second type. This needed a surgery to scrape it out and for a vet to make a determination as to whether the bird's leg could have been saved.


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## Feefo

> This needed a surgery to scrape it out and for a vet to make a determination as *to whether the bird's leg could have been saved*


We are being a bit pessimistic here, aren't we? Moxie has said that he is still using the leg.

*Any *wound needs flushing and disinfecting twice day. Remember that she is not flushing to "scrape pus off the bones" but to get any debris that is causing infection out. 

Cynthia


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## Guest

Cynthia,
Only time will tell what happens. Right now, I believe the infection has turned chronic and if it has, pus that has broken out, will be continuously generated from the encapsulated infection. When I posted my concern for bone shards and what they could do to neighboring tissue, some people said the shards would become part of the callous formation. I had said then that a surgery was needed. Wound care for bones can be a lot different than wound care for soft tissue injuries. I hope I'm wrong this time.


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## Pidgey

Well, the bird's walking around apparently, so this is probably (and hopefully) the last thing to have to clear up. She was talking earlier about it (this particular hole) pointing in a different direction from the trajectory of the BB so I'm not sure what it is or quite where it came from.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

see, i remember the bone is actually showing. and there is a lot of pus still in there. pulling out the bone shard, i had to maneuver it and i saw down to the bone and saw a LOT OF PUS DOWN THERE!! he is now limping again.
i am afraid that when i was pulling pus out before, a few days or so ago, that i might of un-intentionally loosened a fractured bone piece, and made it come off with the tweezers. i mean, their bones are very fragile, and i guess i wasnt thinking about that when i was getting the pus out before.
i went and got iodine. is that better to flush with?
also, the lady up here said if bone is showing then it will cause many more problems. but i dont know what to believe from her.
anyways, the hole that goes the other way. what i believe is he got shot, and the pus and feathers started a massive infection that started to track the OTHER way, hence the abcess, and all the other pus that way.
so, i dont know what to do??


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## xxmoxiexx

oh, and the wound is deep, like 1 1/2 inches or so, not counting the 1/2 inch in other direction, and since the hole itself isnt wide, i cant see in there, and with my experience so far with this, i have noticed that no amount of flushing will remove a lot of the pus, and i thought a wound WILL NOT HEAL if it has ANY pus in it?


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## Pidgey

Well, it's high time to get the bird on the Clavamox that Sabina sent, I guess. She's working on getting you some Keflex, too, but that's down the road aways. As soon as you can, get the bird started on the Clavamox by the dosage earlier (we did that, right?) and we'll rethink it on the fly when the other stuff gets there. If you're going to flush with iodine, you have to dilute it 10-to-1 or so, and that's Betadine (Povidone-Iodine) right?

Pus is a combination of things: some inflammatory debris, antibodies, leukocytes... the body can absorb some of it but if it's got bacteria growing in it, then cleaning is for the best. Did he start going back downhill when you stopped one of the antibiotics (Baytril or Metronidazole)?

Pidgey


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## Guest

It's time to put this bird to sleep.

I haven't read anything in this thread about what an open fracture does and how the prognosis approaches 0 the longer the wound is not cleaned out and sutured closed. This is a fragmented bone, probably a commuted fracture (multi fragments) and the prognosis is even poorer for this kind of injury. 

An open fracture means that air is entering with a lot of infectious materials and it has been so since the bird was shot. It isn't just the bone. It's what air does to muscles, tendons and ligaments. It dries them up. It kills them and it's called necrosis. At this very moment, more and more of these tissues are dying and causing toxins to kill more and more tissues. Antibiotics do not stop necrosis. Baytril does not stop necrosis. Clavamox does not stop necrosis. Flagyl does not stop necrosis. Surgery stops necrosis and it's vital to clean out dead tissue to prevent more tissue death and more tissue toxins. 

It was vital to scrape off hard pus from the bone. Now, it has gone on for too long to make a difference.

The bone itself is infected and all the flushing in the world is not going to stop more and more of bacteria from invading more bone from the air and from the original infection, into neighboring bone. It is spreading. How is flushing going to stop that?

How was using a pair of septic tweezers that scratched the insides of the wound creating more infection going to help? How was using a pair of septic tweezers to push infected tissue more deeply into the body to a point where it caused a second opening on the other side of the body to appear? How does using a pair of septic tweezers stop tissue necrosis. It doesn't. It helps create more.

Moxie, if you want to see a bird suffer an agonizing death, use the iodine. It burns like fire on the outside so I can't imagine how even a diluted solution could quell the pain it could cause. Iodine is a topical not an internal disinfectant. Moxie, for your information, surgeons use saline solution or triple antibiotic solution for internal use. They never use iodine in any form.

Do this bird a big favor and put him to sleep. Doing anything more is creating pure torture for no reason at all. This bird belonged in a surgery as soon as the deep infection was discovered.

I'm not posting to this thread anymore. I don't participate in torture.


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## Reti

Maybe moxie can get the bird to a vet. Even if the leg has to be amputated it is better than being PTS. 
Pigeons do ok with one leg, they adapt.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx

are you joking? thanks everyone for your support, but damn, PP, way to make me feel like ****. 
i guess i'm torturing this bird, so let me just go break his neck real quick. 
reti, what is PTS?


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## mr squeaks

Put To Sleep...


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## Feefo

Hi Moxie,

First let me say that I picked up a pigeon with an open fracture of the wing three days after it was injured and, because I was new, I didn't see the fracture. The wound was open to dirt etc.

Helen (Nooti) happened to visit me well over a week after the injury and took the pigeon to her vet for amputation. Instead of doing that the vet decided to file the bone down and sew a skin flap over it. That bird is alive, well and flying a few years later. Before Helen saw the pigeon I did the flushing of the wound and smearing on of antibacterial cream that I recommended earlier. It is an effective and painless treatment.

We have been down a similar route of dismal diagnosing on this forum with two other pigeons recently and they both survived despite a gloomy prognosis. I could tell you about similar instances over the years. The advice that you should destroy the pigeon is based on supposition and worst case scenario. What you have to remember is that many of the casualties that we pick up have been on the ground for hours, sometimes days after the injury so we seldom get to treat a new injury...even so the loss of life is minimal.

You have done a wonderful following the advice that you were given and I know that you will continue to do a good job and hope for the best for this pigeon. You are not being cruel or torturing the bird. Its life is all it has, thank you for your fight to preserve it.


Cynthia


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## John_D

pigeonperson said:


> It's time to put this bird to sleep.
> 
> ..........
> 
> I'm not posting to this thread anymore. I don't participate in torture.


PP, if you do not choose to participate in a thread then it is quite simple. Don't post. It is quite unnecessary to make the kind of comment plainly intended to lay a guilt trip on someone.

Most of us on here do not claim to be any kind of 'expert' on avian medicine, pathology or any other aspect of veterinary science - whether it be from practical experience or book knowledge. Most of us, I believe, would agree that we do make mistakes, we sometimes get it wrong but quite a few times get it right. And, because we're just trying to do what we can to help, most of us don't set ourselves up as some authority to pass judgement from lofty heights!

John


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Well said John...here here.


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## Whitefeather

xxmoxiexx said:


> are you joking? thanks everyone for your support, but damn, PP, way to make me feel like ****.
> * *i guess i'm torturing this bird*, so let me just go break his neck real quick.
> reti, what is PTS?


* No, Moxie, you're not, & I am so sorry you have been made to feel this way.  
You are doing the best possible job that you can. 

* * * * 

How is your little patient doing this morning?
I was reviewing your thread yesterday & didn't see this suggestion mentioned, although it's possible I may have missed it, what about applying a warm compress to the wound site to help draw out the infection? 

Cindy


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## Guest

John,

Lofty heights? John, you don't get it. 

Very early on, Moxie was offered the opportunity to go to a vet in her area. There are wonderful people here who are very generous. They were willing to take badly needed funds out of their own pockets and get the bird the help it needed. That included me and if that puts me in the company of people who act from lofty heights, it's fine with me. Moxie turned that offer down. She was misled because others here told her what to do but they forgot what necrosis means. Some people here like to use fancy books and live in ivory towers and if they don't look up everything applicable in the table of contents, they make mistakes but it's me who's preaching from lofty heights.

Then, the discussion turned to the next best thing, to take the bird to AG for surgery. Moxie turned that down too and instead went to a rehabilitator who had X-Ray vision and told her that all the pus was gone.

Now, it's probably too late and if a surgeon left half a bird after he was finished taking out everything that was dead and infected, it would be a lot.

You have everything backwards. The first thing you should know before picking up a living creature is to do no harm. You have people here who cut into birds without the benefit of any kind of anesthesia and you sit there and admire them but me, you try to insult for following the very basics of human compassion, to do no harm. In case you're interested, I use Lidocaine but even in situations where I'm absolutely forced to do things that are better left to a vet, I would never go deep. Do no harm. 

I thought this site was set up to preserve and protect life but I was wrong. People come first here. Don't teach the right way of doing anything if it's going to offend anyone. Just let them do their thing and applaud. Using the birds as experiments is what this place is all about. I thought we would have learned something from what the Nazis did but apparently, nobody learns from history. Just read some of the case histories and you'll know what I'm talking about. 

If this site is supposed to be dedicated to easing the suffering of the birds, then ask yourself why one moderator always comes on and always says he knows nothing of rehabilitation. He owns birds and sells birds and knows nothing about rehabilitation. Why doesn't he know anything? Don't his birds get sick too? I would like to know what does he do with his own sick and injured birds but don't hold your breath for an answer to that. It only proves that this site is set up for people first and birds second. There's a lot of arrogance here but I'm the one who is resented. That makes a lot of sense. 

You're right, John. I shouldn't post here because apparently, I don't have anything people want but John, you are the one who just doesn't get what goes on here.

Fred


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## xxmoxiexx

Fred, i am sorry, i was just taken aback by what you said. the reason i didnt take it to a vet right off is because first i wanted to see if it could get seen up here. when i found someone i took her to her word, she seemed very experienced, had a ton of birds at her house.
now, i didnt take it to a vet in my area, because NO VET would see it here, aside from the fact that i have no money, and yes, people offered to pay here, but pay for what? no vet would see him. well, then i was going to go to AG, but i saw the rehabber lady first and took her at her word.
so, now AG seems impossible because i am working and in school and have mid-terms to be made up.
 also, i want to point out that this bird seems fine except for the leg. he flys around when i let him out, he eats, drinks, poops a bunch, and does everything else a pigeon is supposed to do. except for the leg. i havent really talked about anything BUT the leg, so i'm trying to point out his overall health/happiness right now.
Fred helped me a bunch before, and i realize his situation is a little different. he has to decide what pigeon lives and dies because he has so little space to keep them, correct?


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## Pidgey

Sometimes, it gets a little fun here because of things that one doesn't know. For instance, Moxie is a "hunt-and-peck" typist. It's real easy for some of us to get long-winded on explanations because we can type so fast--no effort. And then there are others who may be especially brief due to effort required to type a post. 

Anyhow, I've occasionally called Moxie to get updates and ask specific questions when news has been what I considered to be too brief. The bird's really in pretty good shape, complete with walking around and everything. Sounds to me like it actually walks better than DD does although it does have a slight limp at the moment.

Like DD though, the wound is a pocket-type wound that has to be internally debrided occasionally although the usage of that word isn't quite the same as the worst-case debriding techniques imply. What happens during the trailing end of this kind of case is that a whitish, caseous stuff forms in the pocket and has as much to do with the reorganization of the underlying boundary layers between the viable flesh and the walls that were formed when the garbage was still in the wound, as it does with an infection per se. It's not the cankerous, yellow stuff, nor is it necrotic tissue. I saw it in abundance with both Pierpont and DD. To me, it seems best to wait about every three to four days to pull the stuff out because if you wait a little bit, it solidifies enough to not pull completely apart when you grasp it with the forceps. In this kind of wound, it's not an option--it's going to occur and one is simply going to have to remove it, over and over for weeks, while the wound gets ever smaller.

The bird is in far and away better shape now than it was when she first got it. It actually started limping again a little bit when she pulled that chunk out, but he's still walking and being a relatively normal pigeon.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Moxie,
I don't decide which birds live and which ones die. For the most part, the birds decide that. There is room for 5 birds and when I'm out of space, I literally stop looking for more until a spot opens up. One bird that was hit by a hawk was released yesterday so a spot opened up. This morning, I took in a string injury that couldn't be treated simply in the street. 

I screwed up with this bird too. I should have gone into the death of organs much earlier and now have to live with that mistake. 

Moxie, this isn't about me and it isn't about you. The bird is in trouble inside and he can eat and fly until he drops. They can do that.

He needed help that we can't give. I hear you. You can't get to a vet. This probably won't end well but you can't help that. Don't tweeze anymore and let him have his peace.


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## Pidgey

Let me add something else, while I'm at it. Personally, I think that I've probably got some kind of obsessive-compulsive disorder to be doing this stuff anyhow. I can't count the times I've obsessed about a bird on here and imagined a thousand wild scenarios. With some of my own patients, I've learned to be a lot more patient and lax, and let them heal somewhat on their own. They occasionally need a little boost here and there--a septicemia from too much bacterial loading will kill a bird for instance--with medications or other treatments but they do quite a bit of healing completely on their own. To my mind, though, the white exudate needs to come out occasionally because it'll dry down like a booger and can't be dissolved by their bodies since "avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue". 

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

yes, i'm not the best typer, so i usually keep it short and sweet, or short and not so sweet.
also, i have to take my cat to the vet, as i have been poisoning him with IAMS food. wet food. so i have to come up with a good chunk of money to take him in next week, so i'm taking care of him first, and then we will see what pigeon is doing by then. if anyone feeds their cat or dog IAMS, stop, not just because of the poison in the wet food, but because they do horrible, cruel animal testing. i just found all of this out, and will never buy IAMS again. you would think a pet food place wouldnt do animal testing, but these places are all about greed.
they take baby ducks/chickens and force feed the iams to test the protien consistency in the food, when there are non-animal tests. they took 21 beagles, cut up and sutured their gums to simulate gingivitis and gave them the dental treats to see if it made any difference. they have had cats and dogs in tiny crates, some for as long as SIX years, this doesnt even BEGIN to explain the cruelty that they do. it makes me sick.


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## Feefo

> To me, it seems best to wait about every three to four days to pull the stuff out because if you wait a little bit, it solidifies enough to not pull completely apart when you grasp it with the forceps. In this kind of wound, it's not an option--it's going to occur and one is simply going to have to remove it, over and over for weeks, while the wound gets ever smaller.


Pidgey, I am curious as to why don't you use or recommend hydrocolloid gel to dress a wound? It protects the wound from infection and it has such a beneficial effect on the wound , speeding up healing and making the cleaning of the wound so much easier on both rescuer and pigeon.

Cynthia


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## John_D

pigeonperson said:


> Lofty heights? John, you don't get it.
> 
> .......


Oh, I got it. The kind of reaction that I should have expected by now.



> You have everything backwards. The first thing you should know before picking up a living creature is to do no harm. *You have people here who cut into birds without the benefit of any kind of anesthesia and you sit there and admire them* but me, you try to insult for following the very basics of human compassion


Would you care to explain that comment? Who are the 'people here' you refer to - and who you allege, incorrectly, I 'admire'? Frankly, I do not know what you are raving about! 



> I thought this site was set up to preserve and protect life but I was wrong. People come first here. Don't teach the right way of doing anything if it's going to offend anyone. Just let them do their thing and applaud. *Using the birds as experiments is what this place is all about. I thought we would have learned something from what the Nazis did* but apparently, nobody learns from history.


*This is a serious accusation against this forum, the owners and members. You are stating that this forum is about experimenting on birds, and implying that people here could be likened unto Nazis. I suggest that unless you have evidence to support your accusations, you retract them forthwith.* 



> If this site is supposed to be dedicated to easing the suffering of the birds, then ask yourself why one moderator always comes on and always says he knows nothing of rehabilitation. He owns birds and sells birds and knows nothing about rehabilitation. Why doesn't he know anything? Don't his birds get sick too? I would like to know what does he do with his own sick and injured birds but don't hold your breath for an answer to that. It only proves that this site is set up for people first and birds second. There's a lot of arrogance here but I'm the one who is resented. That makes a lot of sense.


I think you may be the one that's missing the point This site caters for rehabilitators and rescuers, yes - but also for people who engage in the racing or show pigeon hobbies or just enjoy their once-rescued pet pigeons. Why would someone who is not a rehabilitator know a great deal about how rehabilitators work? I don't consider it *my* business whether someone is or not, so why would I ask myself that? All that 'it' proves is that there is a variety of people on here with - as I said - varying pigeon-related interests. 

As for arrogance - well, stones and glasshouses come to mind 



> You're right, John. I shouldn't post here because apparently, I don't have anything people want but John, you are the one who just doesn't get what goes on here.
> 
> Fred


Did anyone say you shouldn't post here? As I recall, it is you who said you would no longer post on *this thread*.

Like I said, I get what is going on here only too well. Same old routine. Somebody pulls you up over an unnecessary snide comment, and that's it! This time we're all some kind of Nazi experimenters and torturers - and *you* feel insulted? Give us a break! 

John


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## TAWhatley

It's time to get this thread back on track Pigeon-Talkers. Some harsh comments have been made and responded to. Let's be done with that and get back to trying to help Moxie and the bird as best we can.

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Moxie, I was just catching up and noticed this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=189175&postcount=278

I wondered if this is still a possibility or if there's some way for other members
to assist in shuttling this bird up to New York. If not, what about shipping if the 
bird is not currently on meds. I think that there's at least one service that
can get the bird there in one day's turn around and perhaps we can pass the 
"hat" on that one. It's worth it for this bird to get the professional care that is
needed, jmo. It's not about anything you have/have not done, but more what
a vet w/the professional equipment, supplies and training that comes w/the territory can do. Is this a possibility??

fp

Another thought would be possibly putting on a specific bus and having someone collect at the other end?


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## Pidgey

cyro51 said:


> Pidgey, I am curious as to why don't you use or recommend hydrocolloid gel to dress a wound? It protects the wound from infection and it has such a beneficial effect on the wound , speeding up healing and making the cleaning of the wound so much easier on both rescuer and pigeon.
> 
> Cynthia


Cynthia, I've had two birds now with which I've had to deal with wounds that were essentially "pockets". And, also, both of them were very old wounds that had been heavily infected by the time I got the birds. DD's was actually open to begin with and it closed into a pocket before finishing healing. Pierpont actually had two different kinds due to the same event.

I did try packing the hole in Pierpont's chest with the stuff (hydrocolloid gel) and found it became a problem. What I wanted was for the wound to fill in on the inside and heal all the way out as if it had never happened. I didn't want to have a perpetual "belly-button" kind of hole going into the chest. It was doing exactly what Moxie's bird is doing--wanting to seal off on the outside (or at least close too tightly for the garbage that forms inside to be able to get out easily). That whitish stuff kept forming in there and I had to keep pulling it out every few days.

Now, bear in mind that the hole went straight into the bird about as wide as fingernail and about 3/4" deep. It wasn't a round hole, but somewhat flattened. You could see the sternum down in the bottom (you had to use a otoscope for that, though) and the hole turned upward towards the crop at its furthest reach. When I packed the hydrocolloid gel in there, it eventually hardened into a plug of silica about the size and shape of the hole. It became a barrier against the local flesh filling in said hole and had to be removed. After that, I just didn't see how it was going to help under those specific circumstances.

I use similar stuff over broad areas on my own self when I get scraped and whatnot. It's just a breathable, clear dressing and it works great but I only use the stuff on a wound surface that isn't flat. I haven't figured out how to use it in a pocket successfully and get the tissue surfaces to knit back together. 

On Pierpont's chest, the vet wanted to get the flaps of skin sewed back together because skin is the absolute best, of course. It was a bit disappointing to me when the skin absolutely refused to heal back together and that garbage would form between the skin flaps (that were essentially laced together) and the breast muscles. Now that I understand the process and have had experience with it, I'm not afraid of it. You really only see it in deep wounds that have been open way too long to begin with.

In the case of Moxie's bird here, there was all that crap in there that made the viable inside boundaries start converting into something more resembling outer scar tissue than the typical organization that you'd see with internal flesh. It seems to be the function of the body to form a skin/scar tissue layer around stuff like that if there's nothing else it can do. It didn't have a method of ejecting the stuff out of the body so it was going to deal with it the only way it knew how. Pulling the crap out changes the game and now the body has to reorganize the tissues into something more normal.

I guess just imagine that when you truly lose a large patch of skin and there's real muscle exposed, that muscle isn't designed to maintain that exposure and so the local tissues begin to form a scar layer. It doesn't know how to completely regenerate the original skin in all its varied structure so it does the best that it can. Naturally, desiccation is an issue and so a scab forms. A hydrocolloid dressing is a wonderful way to protect the exposed muscle in a case like that and the body can work under it to develop that scar tissue layer.

Now, if in the case of a pocket that you don't want a scar tissue layer forming and thereby maintaining the pocket, it behooves you to perform some of the old-style debriding occasionally to help the body fill in the hole from the bottom outward. I suppose that you could say I'd feel pretty good about using a hydrocolloid gel or dressing in a wound that might be better described as a "pit" or mild depression. But, for one that's more of a spelunking trip, complete with small opening and large caverns inside, I just can't endorse it based on my own experience.

I usually try to supply whoever I deal with on here with enough verbage and information for them to try and compare their situation, think their way through it and make their own decision of how to proceed, whether that means asking more questions, going to a vet or whatever. That method doesn't always work, of course, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that sometimes folks are hoping that it would be a lot simpler.

Pidgey


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## sabina

We were thinking something along those lines, we could pick up the bird from the bus stop and take it to AG. Even if Moxie came along, she could just turn around and go back to Boston. Though maybe there's an easier way to get the bird from Boston to NY?


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## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> We were thinking something along those lines, we could pick up the bird from the bus stop and take it to AG. Even if Moxie came along, she could just turn around and go back to Boston. Though maybe there's an easier way to get the bird from Boston to NY?


Thanks, Sabina. I really think for everyone's peace of mind it would be great
to get this bird to a vet. I wonder if you called the bus terminal if they would
allow a ticket to be purchased for only 'pet transport'. The carrier would need to be inside the bus and not in the cargo area underneath. I can get the details to the airplane that ships overnight, or at least in 24 hours, all of this contingent on whether the bird is on meds at the time of shipping.

If Moxie can do the bus trip next weekend then it's a question of waiting or not. I'll have the info on
the air shipping here by the end of the day....*it's not w/the USPS.*

fp


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## xxmoxiexx

you know, i just might be able to do the trip as long as i am back on the bus that night or next morning, a 4 hour bus trip wouldnt do me much harm, as there's nothing to do on that bus but study.
the only thing though, is i need someone to hold the bird if it needs to stay down there for after care. does anyone know if this bird needed surgery if they would be able to do it same day?? 
also, this other rehab lady up here told me NOT to use neosporin, as the greasiness causes more problems, and she said that might be a reason it wasnt closing and causing more and more pus?? anyone know anything about that? i did stop the neosporin about 1-2 weeks ago. just been using saline. also, i have betadine, not iodine. so thats easier on a bird, as long as it's diluted. i should of asked before i stopped the neosporin, as this lady said to use betadine OR iodine. and iodine is really bad on birds, yes? so is neosporin ok?
i can get the bus ticket, but i'd need money for a donation to AG. as i said, i have to spend 200-300 at the vet up here for my cat, and that is money i just dont have right now. so this on top is going to be impossible. i know people offered to help out before, but i dont want to assume that they will still be willing. damn, doesnt everyone take the same rehab test and certifying? why does everyone have so wildly different opinions? it's enough to drive me crazy!!


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## xxmoxiexx

If Moxie can do the bus trip next weekend then it's a question of waiting or not.
fp[/QUOTE said:


> FP, is next weekend not soon enough?? i was actually thinking of coming down on thursday, that might be the best day for me.


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## TAWhatley

Moxie,

Our member, little bird, had offered previously to look after the bird and to get it to any follow up visits at AG. I don't know of any reason why she wouldn't still be willing to help in this regard.

Terry


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## Pidgey

Oh, most of us aren't licensed rehabbers. Wouldn't matter--two human doctors can doggone well get into fistfights over diagnosing more-than-your-average illnesses, too. You just don't realize the fun of trying to visualize the severity and specifics of an injury or illness from written posts. Add to that the tendency for each rehabber to want to interpret those descriptions towards something that he or she has seen before and successfully treated.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

little bird said:


> Yes, Terry and Moxie....I can do the follow-up care BUT I will not be availabe to take the bird until Monday Apr 9th. I assume that AG will keep it for a few days after surgery and if someone like Sabina could meet Moxie at the bus and get the bird to AG, it sounds do-able.
> 
> PS assuming AG will still take the bird



I think the sooner the better. I did pm Sabina and Aias and ask them if they
would check w/AG and see if they would treat the bird. A couple of folks there
apparently check in here from time to time and there was concern voiced that
they may not want to take the bird as it is from MA. So it seems best to ensure that they will and since Sabina and Aias have an ongoing relationship
w/them I'm hoping AG will tell them "Yes".

Is the pij currently on Augmentin/Clavamox?

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

*i did get some of the meds sabina sent,....*

....the others are on the way. i have a augmentin (amoxicillan + clavulanic acid) 875/125 mg.
and enroxil 7.5 mg

i just got them, others are on the way. what should i give?
also, is neosporin ok or not??


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, i just PMed pidgey, and he said to give the augmentin, but to give 1/25th of a pill.
has anyone had success in crushing this pill up and mixing it in water??
and the augmentil says 875/125 mg, so it's a 125 mg pill, what does the 875 mean?


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## Whitefeather

xxmoxiexx said:


> ....the others are on the way. i have a augmentin (amoxicillan + clavulanic acid) 875/125 mg.
> and enroxil 7.5 mg
> 
> i just got them, others are on the way. what should i give?
> also,* is neosporin ok or not*??


Neosporin *ointment* is not recommended as it tends to make the feathers greasy. I believe I read where some folks have used neosporin cream. I've always just used Nolvasan ointment.

Cindy


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## Pidgey

Yeah, it makes feathers greasy alright. But it's not intended for deep wounds anyhow. It's more for surface stuff.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

so what do i use for the deep wound here? is there something i can buy that will work better than saline? keep in mind something that is from a drug store or something?
can you buy that Nolvasan stuff at a drug store? and can you use it on a deep wound?


----------



## Pidgey

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, i just PMed pidgey, and he said to give the augmentin, but to give 1/25th of a pill.
> has anyone had success in crushing this pill up and mixing it in water??
> and the augmentil says 875/125 mg, so it's a 125 mg pill, what does the 875 mean?


It's two drugs in one--875 milligrams of Amoxicillin and 125 milligrams of Clavulanic Acid. The second one works synergistically with the other. As antibiotics go, it's a Beta-Lactam antibiotic and it inhibits the formation of the cellular wall of bacteria. It's bactericidal for growing and dividing organisms and primarily is active against gram positives and some gram negatives.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Moxie,

Find out where the nearest Western Union office is. I'll wire transfer to you.

Can you find out what it is from whatever bus company you use?

All you have to do is present proof that it is you and they'll remit the money.

Use my regular email address to send me your first and last name. I have it somewhere but want to make sure. That's the information they need to verify you're the person receiving the funds so I have to input that information.

This has to be coordinated with Sabina and Little bird but I'll cover the cost of the round trip.

You have to let us know what day you want to come in. Either Sabina or Little bird have to call AG and find out if that day is ok and then check back with you. Then, you have to let me know this is on and I'll send the funds and then let you know it was sent.


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## xxmoxiexx

first, what i'm wondering is if i take a bus if they'll let me hold pidgey with me, because i wont put him below. has anyone taken a bus and has experience with this? so i need to know so i know whether the bus is viable, or if i should take a train.


----------



## Guest

Moxie,
Do you have a small nylon bag made with mesh on one side or two? They wouldn't even know you had a bird in there? You could call the bus company and ask if they allow a pet carrier on if you hold it.


----------



## sabina

Ok so Aias can meet Moxie on Thursday, pick up the bird and take to AG. Well before that...we'll contact someone from AG by email tomorrow to see if they will take the bird and if so, when. The bird can stay with us until April 9th, that is no problem. Oscar's 6 weeks of PMV contagion will be over by then (that was our concern before with such a small space) so that is good. We can help with a donation for AG or anything else that comes up financially. 

As for the bus...I used to sneak my cats on by putting their carrier into a big duffle bag, and I'm guessing this pigeon is quieter than my cats!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, i'm going to call them tomorrow. if not maybe a train, but i think they are really pricey, so i can just go to the thrift store to find a bag.
i just PMed PP and told him i am going to know so much more on monday about what day/time i can come, so i will post monday night or tuesday morning, and we can all plan from there.
thanks PP, that is awefully sweet of you to offer to help, and everyone else, thanks so much. i really feel like a bum sometimes on here though, just cause i feel so bad when i dont have money to take a bird to a vet or buy certain things/meds. i guess i'm just one of those people who i'ts very hard to swallow my so called pride. i knew going into school it was going to be like this, and my whole picking up stray birds started AFTER school, or i might have thought twice about it, just because having a hurt bird in front of you without the funds to take care of it is soooo frustrating, i sometimes do feel like a jerk for picking them up. and everyone is so nice on here, i guess being in boston for 5 years has gotten me so used to people being very rude. if you havent heard, Boston was voted the rudest city in America, and i totally agree.


----------



## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> Ok so Aias can meet Moxie on Thursday, pick up the bird and take to AG. Well before that...we'll contact someone from AG by email tomorrow to see if they will take the bird and if so, when. The bird can stay with us until April 9th, that is no problem. Oscar's 6 weeks of PMV contagion will be over by then (that was our concern before with such a small space) so that is good. We can help with a donation for AG or anything else that comes up financially.
> 
> As for the bus...I used to sneak my cats on by putting their carrier into a big duffle bag, and I'm guessing this pigeon is quieter than my cats!


Yes, I think you could smuggle it, I just hope that they haven't gotten
ridiculous w/the search mode thing w/busses also. If you folks need $$help,
let me know.

Moxie, the dose is 12.5mg's twice a day for 7 days as per Cynthia, the listing I have in the formulary is not pigeon specific.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10690

fp


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## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx;189639...... i guess being in boston for 5 years has gotten me so used to people being very rude. if you havent heard said:


> That's so hard to believe, Moxie. I was born/spit out there and I just don't see how you could say such a thing.....
> 
> fp
> 
> I actually thought NYC and Boston were the rude rival twins, it's heartening
> to know that Boston has become #1 in something!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

well, at least compared to the west coast it is!! funny, i hear people up here from new york all the time saying how people in new york are much nicer!!
when i first came here, a friend took me to south boston, and we went to a dunkin donuts ( i know, yuck) but we were in line and the ladys behind the register had the hardest boston accent, and to the people in the front they said "whaddaya want already! hurry up, you've been standing in line andya dont know by now!"
i must of had the most shocked look on my face, because both cashiers were like this, not just one, then it was our turn, and she said "come on, come on!!! it's coffee and donuts, dont look so confused!"
talk about culture shock! i mean, people all over the country like that, but bostons got the market cornered!!


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## Feefo

> so what do i use for the deep wound here? is there something i can buy that will work better than saline? keep in mind something that is from a drug store or something?


Hi Moxie,

The sterile saline is for washing the wound, not for dressing it.

I use hydroco;;oid gel to dress wounds because it protects them, spedds up yje healing and keeps them moist so that they heal from within without making a scab that would have to be debrided,

Ditto on the smuggling! I spent 7 hours on a train with a pigeon with a brolen wing that I found on a brief trip to Sheffield.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx

where can i buy that stuff? hydrocolloid gel?


----------



## Feefo

Hi Moxie,

You can crush 1/4 of the tablet (218 mgs) and dissolve it in purified water to get accurate dosages. The solution must be kept in the fridge and would last about 10 days. 

Helen's Drug Chart says that the dosage can be up to 125 mg PER KILO, three times a day. This is a lot higher than I would give.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

> where can i buy that stuff? hydrocolloid gel?


In the UK it is sold in pharmacies but I have had to ask for it specifically as it is not on display. I expect it is the same over there.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

I ordered it online because I couldn't find it in the drugstores, even after asking the pharmacists. I just got out the instructions (DuoDERM--made in the UK) and it says that the stuff is used for "pressure sores, leg ulcers, and diabetic ulcers."

In the avian patient, this is how they're used:

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2005/february/Cousquer/Mgt-Of-A-Large-Flap-Wound.html

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html

Whatever you do with the stuff, don't squirt it inside the wound so that it gets back there an inch and a half or it'll end up having to have surgery to get the stuff back out. It formed a hardened plug that looked like somewhat roughened blob of dried airplane glue when I tried that on Pierpont.

Pidgey


----------



## flitsnowzoom

*second skin*

Hi, this hydrocel gel maybe something like the "second skin" that is marketed here for blisters etc. Look in the bandaid section of a large drugstore. It probably won't be sold in a typical Walmart, Target or grocery store. The Rite Aide stores here carry it. However you must use with caution on open wounds as it states it clearly on the packaging that it isn't for open wounds -- which is a shame because it feels soooo good on blisters. Runners use it as a preventitive for chafting. I've used on my son and me, but not on an animal. There's also (or used to be) a similar spray-on product.


----------



## Feefo

I use IntraSite gel. It isn't a second skin type dressing. This link describes it and its functions:

http://www.hebhomecare.com/SN_woundcare/SN_woundcare_gel_intrasite.htm

Pidgey, I can understand now why you had a problem when you used the gel on Peirpoint's fistula, this was listed under precautions: _IntraSite Gel should be used with care in the vicinity of the eyes *and in deep wounds with narrow openings (e.g. fistulas) where removal of the gel may be difficult*_. 

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Yep, that was the problem, only it wasn't the fistula where I used it. Pierpont had three wounds in all (from one initial wound): the fistula that formed from the crop (and it was itself multi-faceted); the abscess into the chest (the deep hole); and the large patch of naked breast muscles that were exposed when the skin was rent across the keel.

For Moxie's bird, it probably most resembles Pierpont's chest abscess but it's really more like DD was when the leg had almost healed up. I couldn't use the gel there, either, for the exact same reason you indicated.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

is there any way i can dose once a day rather than twice, or doed it have to be twice? either way i can do it, but if i can do once it will be easier.
i crushed up a quarter of pill, and put 6 cc of water in and gave 1 cc 2xday. it seems like when i tube in just i cc, most of it gets stuck in the tube (the actual part that goes down the throat), and when i pull it out, most of it is in that part and drizzles out. so i dont think he's getting a full dose. any ideas on this? how to dose him and have him get it all? should i mix it with more water, so less gets wasted in the tube? or sprikle the powder in his beak, but i feel that will get wasted too.
it's just with so little in the syringe, when i plunger down, only so much goes in, because the tube that goes down the throat probably holds a cc of liquid inside it.


----------



## Pidgey

Don't use the tube. Just use a 1 cc syringe (if you've got it) and put it part way down. As long as the bird's not thrashing, you can run those down pretty easily, actually, below the airway.

Otherwise, it'd be better to suck up 5 cc's of water first and then the actual medicine and tube it all in if you're doing it the way I imagine you are (like tube-feeding).

Pidgey


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## sabina

We made an appt for the bird at AG for Saturday at 2pm. I just let Moxie know so am waiting to hear back when she can come down.

Sabina


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## Pidgey

Oh, forgot to mention--it'd be better to dose that one twice a day. Some drugs cater to "once daily" better than others and I don't think that one does.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> is there any way i can dose once a day rather than twice, or doed it have to be twice? either way i can do it, but if i can do once it will be easier.
> i crushed up a quarter of pill, and put 6 cc of water in and gave 1 cc 2xday. it seems like when i tube in just i cc, most of it gets stuck in the tube (the actual part that goes down the throat), and when i pull it out, most of it is in that part and drizzles out. so i dont think he's getting a full dose. any ideas on this? how to dose him and have him get it all? should i mix it with more water, so less gets wasted in the tube? or sprikle the powder in his beak, but i feel that will get wasted too.
> it's just with so little in the syringe, when i plunger down, only so much goes in, because the tube that goes down the throat probably holds a cc of liquid inside it.


Moxie, if you use a syringe for medicating it's cleaner than tubing. The trick is to tip the beak upward toward the ceiling and hold there while sliding the syringe to the back of the throat and down. When in the correct area, you should be able to "see it" in the front, or side of the front--that is, what ever side you are favoring when sliding the syringe through the mouth and down into the crop.

Here's a link to a thread on how to crop medicate using a syringe, there are many links inside which all explain from a different perspective how to crop medicate w/a syringe:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15683

Some of these are in PDF format so you need to give the window time to load. Hope this helps.


fp


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## Guest

Moxie,
Sabina made an appointment for this Saturday but you wrote me that you would try to come in tomorrow. We have to coordinate this so can you try to contact Sabina and then let me know what is going on?


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## xxmoxiexx

no, i will be down on thursday, i have to be back thursday, too, or friday morning. i'm going to shoot for getting there around 12...?? know all details tomorrow...


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## xxmoxiexx

ok, cleaning out the wound, he is growing scar tissue or something in there. it is hard to tell what it is, as it is the color of pus, that whity yellowish color. but it is harder like tissue, and it bleeds a bit if you try to pull it, and it isnt like pus, where if you pull it the pus comes out, this has some elasticity to it.
there is a bunch of it in there now. i noticed some the other day, now it's a bunch. what is this? anyone had this happen before?


----------



## Pidgey

Is he still walking on the leg?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

oh yea, still using the leg. i cannot stand the thought of him being put to sleep or losing his leg. Pidgey, you think he'll be alright?
what about AG, do they do everything they can to save limbs and life? or will they kill or amputate because it is cheaper and easier?
i am sooo scared and nervous about this. and i wont be at AG during his appointment. i feel like they're gonna do something bad to him, when i really think he could be alright in the right care and hands.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, the tissue buildup that you're talking about (the stuff that doesn't want to be debrided) sounds kinda' normal to me, really. That's kinda' the entire point of debriding--clearing the garbage that gets in the way so that the tissue can restore itself. And, of course, we're talking about almost as many types of tissue as is in the body. Without being able to visualize exactly where this is that you're talking about, I can't specifically say what kind of stuff it is. However, it's beginning to sound like you're nearing the end of the deal and the bird's on his way to final closure and healing.

In answer to your query, yes, sometimes vets take the expedient course as do doctors for things. In a case like this one and from the beginning, one vet may have cleaned the wound and sewed it up only to have it open back up in an abscess later. Another might have put the bird down. Still another might have given you the meds and slowly walked you through the two-month-long ordeal. I think I've been telling you all along that it was going to take this long. I don't know why it's this way, but for these kinds of deals it certainly seems to be.

Why don't you post a picture or pictures of the entire bird simply standing or walking with the leg, while eating, or drinking or whatever and let us get a better handle on how he looks? Incidentally, I opened the loft on Sunday for the first time in months and many of them went out and had a good time. DD, however, seemed to have no inclination whatsoever to go back to the underpass. 

On DD, by the way, the entire leg (and enveloping skin) was disconnected from the side of the body all the way up to proximal femur (where the very top of the true thigh attaches to the hip). So, besides rooting out all of the infection and connecting the skin back, some connective tissue had to be restored to keep the thigh held in to the body, which may be the kind of stuff that you're finally seeing beginning to form. To this day, DD's right leg stays a little further out than it's supposed to. I'm not sure that he can balance on it alone like they sometimes do. But I can tell you this, he'd be mighty upset to wake up from a general anesthetic and find the limb gone. He fought pretty hard with me to help gain back a good measure of its function.

Personally, I'd have a real hard time of even showing your bird to many vets without being present to direct the decision-making process. You can call that a nasty tendency towards micromanagement if you like, but with all the experiences on here that we've seen, it'd just be kinda' tough for me. I've worked so well with my own vets that we've got a good understanding. I'm sure that the folks at AG are great, it's just that sometimes the decision tree has a fork where the deciding factor is tied to assumptions about aftercare and when that's not known, expediency sometimes wins out. Expediency is sometimes the enemy of long-term rehabbing.

Pidgey


----------



## sabina

Pidgey,
Since it looks like Moxie can't be at the visit, we'll probably be in the position of having to make some decisions. We will try to direct the thought process at the visit in the most positive light possible (ie whatever can be done/whatever needs to be done to help the bird get better is what we should do, and there are people available to care for the bird, permanently if need be, afterwards). And we definitely won't make any major decisions without consulting here. So you two shouldn't worry about that. Have to run...
Sabina


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## Guest

Please keep in mind that this bird has been on antibiotics for about 6 weeks and that his digestive tract must now be totally devoid of the natural flora and fauna. He hasn't been on probiotics nor has Nystatin been dosed as a preventative for such a long course of drugs. If he survives, he has to be rebuilt from the ground up.

He's never been tested for coccida or worms as well as yeast. AG will do that.

Also, Moxie sees pus deep inside and now the body is trying to close over it.

Nobody can say what the people over at AG will say or what they will find inside if they open him up but it's long overdue that he be seen by professionals. This may end in a disaster and if so, remember, that his fate was sealed long before AG got to him.


----------



## Feefo

Thank you for that reassurance Sabina. 

Cynthia


----------



## Aias

in my many experiences with Rita @ AG she has been a compassionate caring person not primarily guided by the most convenient course of action at the expense of the bird, or what will save AG the most money — that is the reason we chose to make the appointment with her. No one wants to see this bird killed if the possibility of a meaningful life is anywhere in the horizon.

so if we can have a bit more optimism please, for as pigeon person says "if he survives, he has to be rebuilt from the ground up". The six million dollar pigeon will rise again.


----------



## Pidgey

You know, about the antibiotics messing with gut flora, I just gotta' say something: I don't think that works quite like everyone thinks. First of all, remember that I've got a scope and do fecals quite frequently. I've also had a bunch of birds on long-term antibiotic courses for various reasons. Pierpont's still out there, alive and well, after having been on Baytril, Metronidazole AND Keflex for more than six weeks. And so was DD.

Some antibiotics are absorbed nearly completely early on in the GI, others can go through without even being absorbed. They're just not all created equal, frankly. For myself, I've tried augmenting some of the birds that I've treated with human probiotics (the best stuff from the refrigerated section of the bona fide health food store) and have never seen a difference. I ascribe that mostly to the fact that I haven't seen a lot of bacterial-based enteritis, for whatever reason.

I didn't give either DD or Pierpont anything more than what was in the KayTee that I only gave that early on in their respective treatments. Once they were able to self-feed, that was over. Gut bacteria, by the way, can be replaced ultra-quickly if necessary. I once killed out virtually all my gut bacteria several years ago--I know doggone good and well what it's truly like and how it can be fixed rapidly. It's bad (in humans) because you end up with horrible gas, diarrhea and much discomfort. The stuff that comes out is funny colors and hasn't changed too much from when it went in. Oh, it's digested for the most part alright, it's just not finished off. I haven't seen a bird yet that I've treated that's had those kinds of problems. Nor have I found a case where the poop in such cases was devoid of bacteria and I have been looking.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I don't think my primary reason for being reluctant has that much to do with the reputation of AG--my mind also works in economics. What Moxie has said both on the forum and on the phone with me about this bird seems to me to be tracking perfectly with what I've seen in Pierpont's and DD's recoveries. It seems on schedule and normal.

In my rehabbing, I've taken to obtaining an awful lot of lab stuff more because of the time it takes to get to my different vets than for the money I spend there, for one reason. I also well understand the economics of trying to make a living at working on animals, especially with the costs of the supplies and equipment. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my vets are going broke when they're working on my birds even though I try my best to get them to charge full fare. I know how much time they spend and what they need to be making in an hour to maintain their practice and the math doesn't work out. So, I do as much as I can to save them from their own generosity, too.

It's a complicated equation. But, bottom line, in my discourse with Moxie, I just don't believe that the bird is in as bad of shape as all that. And, as such, it seems to me that with Moxie going to school and these activities impairing her studies, not to mention the personal costs, I'm just not sure that that much effort is warranted. I've healed more than a few birds using the lackadaisical method because I was otherwise overburdened and it's amazing what they'll sometimes do if you just leave them alone (food and fresh water, of course) to heal. Sometimes less really is more.

Pidgey


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/26vkqv

"There are times when the Candida is in low numbers in the intestinal tract or it has become systemic, meaning it has spread to other areas of the body besides the intestinal tract. There is no accurate diagnosis for systemic Candida and the therapy is more difficult.

Birds can have severe systemic Candida infections and there will be no yeast in the intestines. Thus, not finding Candida in the droppings does not eliminate Candida. The Candida may have left the intestinal system and gone to other parts of the body. The Candida is present, but not found in the droppings.

Further, Candida can be shed intermittently, so you might miss seeing it on a Gram stain. One often must suspect the presence of Candida and treat with herbal anti-fungal therapies to see if the bird improves."


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## Pidgey

Uhh... I was talking about bacteria, not fungi...

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

Pidgey,
Don't worry. I just want to see this through with Moxie's bird and then I'll probably be leaving. My reputation can go to the devil. The focus is on this one bird and I won't abandon it until it reaches whatever the conclusion is.


----------



## Maggie-NC

pigeonperson said:


> Pidgey,
> and then I'll probably be leaving.


And then, who would post all those great links to the news forum?


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i just was at the animal hospital here. my cat has kidnay damage from that damn cat food. i dont think i can go to new york, i dont know what to do. i have to come up with $1000.00 down or they wont treat him. they said the bill will be between 1500-2000 dollars.
i just crawled and begged my mother for it, and of course she said no. she said the vets are lying to me and trying to milk me for money.


----------



## sabina

Oh my god, I am so sorry. That is so so so horrible. I know this isn't the cat forum, but...I can help you out with that bill, that is just awful. Let's talk by email...
Sabina


----------



## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel said:


> And then, who would post all those great links to the news forum?


I, myself, have considered leaving more than a few times. This isn't a place that I actually have a lot of fun. It's more of an obsession and it seems to grow as time goes on. It's as though life steps in and intrudes to take me away from it at times various and sundry. I used to think that this "place" helped me keep a hold of sanity but, ironically, methinks it might be the reverse. Goodness knows that many of us have deep conflicts on here that often lay just beneath the surface. They seem to be rooted in our various personalities and we oft use these situations to conflict while seeking validation.

It's always been my way to ask myself, quietly and privately, WHY I believe something in particular. Especially when others (however many) believe or espouse something different. When it comes to diagnosing birds over the Internet or trying to manage a traumatic-injury rehabilitation, a lot of what we often believe about the case comes from the imagery that we create when we read the posts. Unfortunately, it's often a composite of what the actual words say (which almost never have enough detail), what we've seen with our own eyes and also some theoretical stuff that we throw in for good measure, mostly because we're trying to prove something. The way our brains work (rehabbers in general), there's probably more dire need for sanity checks from time to time than we'd like to admit.

Goodness knows, I've spent a lot of other people's money trying to work these cases and in the ones where I've sent them to vets, I think I'm batting way less than 500. The biggest reasons that I originally posted about Pierpont and DD was to demonstrate what CAN be done so that some folks might be more willing to go the distance with the birds, rather than letting them be put down. And by that, I mean how much of the healing the birds can manage on their own given just a little help.

Philosophically, it is a perilous hobby, trying to do... this. I have many ghosts haunting me at this point. Not the least of which is Kathleen's Lullaby, to put a name to one. When Unie got sick, I used a "lessons learned" from Lullaby and strong-armed my vet into a nebulized treatment. And that success, while probably saving Unie's life, only enhances the guilt that I feel over not having been able to save Lullaby, and that WITH the vet involved. Brad's Henny is a similar story and a similar haunting. Snyder. How many can I name? Far too many. 

It is in my nature to obsess about these cases, to be consumed by the fear of what I have NOT said, researched, advised or done. And sometimes even when I have kept my peace about other advice that I felt to be ultimately dangerous. By the same token, I am sure, it is the same with Pigeonperson.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

xxmoxiexx said:


> i just was at the animal hospital here. my cat has kidnay damage from that damn cat food. i dont think i can go to new york, i dont know what to do. i have to come up with $1000.00 down or they wont treat him. they said the bill will be between 1500-2000 dollars.
> i just crawled and begged my mother for it, and of course she said no. she said the vets are lying to me and trying to milk me for money.


What on earth are they going to do that's going to cost that much? Obviously, they're not going to do a kidney transplant, and I wouldn't expect dialysis either. So, is it an extended course of medications or what?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/17/national/main2581329.shtml


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## sabina

Actually, when I took a second to think about it, I wondered the same thing. What are they actually going to do that's going to cost so much?? We got billed an exorbitant amount from a fancy hospital when our cat had a bladder obstruction, and our regular vet said we'd been taken to the cleaners. You should get a second opinion and price estimate.


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## Pidgey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine

I am still searching the IVIS site for information about what to do for the animals and still haven't succeeded in finding out what can actually be done that's of any real use.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

http://www.avma.org/aa/menufoodsrecall/


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## sabina

Most likely, the cat needs some lab work and IV fluids. They could possibly do some imaging studies (x-ray, ultrasound). Possibly some medications (phosphorus binders, etc). But I think it could all be done for less than that.


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## Pidgey

Most significant so far:

http://www.avma.org/aa/menufoodsrecall/veterinarian_info_acvim.asp


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## Pidgey

And further:

http://www.labservices.uoguelph.ca/urgent.cfm#crystals

The upshot is that they're still collating the data and aren't even sure what it is. The treatments (in some detail in that last link) are not even definite to work and since this is a "breaking news--this just in... " deal, it's kinda' hard to say which way to jump.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

he's being hospitalized for 2-4 days, giving i.v. fluids, and they have to do an electrocardiogram. i was just looking over the bill estimate they gave me, and the ER visit is $130, the medications are $255, and the cardiology stuff is $346.
mind you, this is an estimate they gave me, so the low estimate is $1553.00, and the high estimate is $2041.00, so i was wrong about $2500.00
but they want $1000 down to do anything, so now they have him but wont perform the necessary tests and treatment until i put that down.
he has a slight heart murmur, so they wont give the full IV fluids until they do an electrocardiogram. i guess he can have heart failure if they give him too many meds, liquid IV. which they have to do to flush his liver. i know, i almost fainted. this isnt a fancy place either. see, i can apply for SOME of the money, 10-20 percent taken off, by stating i am low income student and all, but they have to have the bill paid before they do that, and they will just reimburse. kind of backwards way to do it, eh? and they tried to sign me up to a credit card, but i have no credit.
this has me all flustered... there is just way too much going on right now, i really cant handle all this stress.


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## xxmoxiexx

oh yes, an ultrasound too...


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## Pidgey

Moxie, what are the symptoms and how much distress is your cat in at this point? How old is the cat? Does the cat have a lot of physical reserves (that means is it a fat cat or well-muscled)?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, for the ultrasound, they're looking for crystalline buildup in the kidneys (believed to be the primary reason for the kidney failures of the animals that have died so far) and the IV's may be to try and dissolve said crystals (kidney stones of a type). The other stuff's to try and not kill the cat due to the cure being worse than the disease.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx

no the cat isnt real fat, but not real muscled either, he's about four years old. well, the symptoms are vague, and the only ones i've noticed are puking, loss of energy, and drinking more water.


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## xxmoxiexx

D*MN!! this is horrible!! I AM BEING PULLED ON BOTH SIDES!! THE BIRD ON ONE, AND MY CAT ON THE OTHER!!!


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## Pidgey

The bird's doing way better than the cat at this point, right?


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## xxmoxiexx

yes, definitely! but i thought if i waited for the bird it would mean imminent death?


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## sabina

The most important thing is the fluids to flush out the kidneys. It's too bad they won't just give the fluids and monitor for fluid overload, that they want to do this cardiac work-up first. I guess you don't really have any options though...


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## Pidgey

How long has he been presenting symptoms and how long ago was he eating that food?


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## Pidgey

xxmoxiexx said:


> yes, definitely! but i thought if i waited for the bird it would mean imminent death?


Well, that begs the question--do you get any sense that the bird is going downhill rapidly or is he pretty much just toodling around as if there's not much wrong?


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## xxmoxiexx

the bird is more toodling around like nothing is wrong. 
my cat has been eating the IAMS all this time. 2 years ago they said he was allergic to some protiens in food, he was getting lots of black earwax build-up. so they said to feed IAMS. i give wet and dry, he loves wet, so he's eaten it this entire time.
i have given treats too, and i just looked at ingredients and they have wheat gluten too! which i guess is the tainted part.
ok, i just dont know whats going on right this second... i dont know what is going on, what i'm going to do, how i'm going to do it, or what "it" is at this point, i'm lost!


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## Pidgey

Well, given the circumstances, I'd probably play it this way: just give the bird the regular medications that it's on right now and let it toodle.

On the cat, you're already racking up a bill, I expect, and we don't even know if the cat's in real danger or not. Logic indicates that an awful lot of pets are going through the same thing right now. It's possible that given some time off food altogether that the stuff will work through--we don't know. The vets don't even know yet as the information is still being processed. People are probably pulling 24 hour shifts at labs trying to figure out what's going on and how to counteract it. We haven't found any information at this point to indicate if the survival rate is even affected by the current treatment strategies. That's tough, I know, but that's how it is. 

Pidgey


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## flitsnowzoom

*Take a breath*

Hi Moxie,
I'm a lurker on this thread (since I joined mid-March) and I have a cat with renal failure  . Only difference is that my cat's been going downhill since last summer. For a day or two after I found out, I was pretty upset, but after thinking, I decided to do what I could for Kitty without killing myself in the process. Instead of the high-priced food and the fancy stuff they were recommending at the vet's, I chose to feed my cat anything she would eat and give her lots of water and love. And yes, she drinks and pees up a storm and doesn't have the energy she did, but we cope. If I think she is really starting to go downhill, then . . . well, I don't want to go there now, but someday fairly soon that day will come  .

I know it's a different problem with your cat, but like Pidgey has said, nobody really knows what is causing the problem and whether the IV fluids etc is really going to work. If "they" knew for sure that flushing the kidneys by flooding the system with IV fluids would work, then it might seem to be a reasonable approach to "fixing" the problem, but it seems to me as if pumping the poor cat full of more fluids when the kidneys are not functioning well now seems illogical. Learn as much as you can before committing your cat to a course of care that nobody really knows if it will work or not. 

I know how hard it is to juggle 50,000 things at once (at least it seems that way), but the first thing to do is take a breath or two, go watch "Dancing with the stars" or do something equally inane, and think of the positives you have done for the animals rather than all the problems. 

Not much help, I know, but lots of sympathy from here.


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## xxmoxiexx

see, they say to flush it to flush out all the toxins. and its not just that, they have to do more testing to see how bad it really is, but they want money down for that. i'm getting probably $200 from a few friends tonight, i have another $500 check coming this weekend, but none of that is enough, as it is needed right now to do the tests.


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## flitsnowzoom

*wild hair here*

Do you think you could just give your cat lots of water and maybe spike it with Pediolyte to keep the electrolyte balances somewhat in order? Couldn't he do some of the "flushing" himself? He'd have to do all the peeing himself unless they put him on dialysis. 
Gotta run. I'll be thinking of you.


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## sabina

Here are some good veterinary sites on renal failure in cats, for anyone interested...

http://www.felinecrf.com/what0.htm 

http://courses.vetmed.wsu.edu/vm552/urogenital/arf.htm

http://www.felinegood.co.uk/kidney_disease/en/introduction.shtml

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2003&PID=6605&O=Generic


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## jazaroo

Hi Moxie,

A few days ago I saw on TV the spokesman for Menu Foods, the maker of IAMS, saying their company would be responsible for any and all vet bills that could be attributed to their food doing the harm. Your vet must know, or should, the procedures for making a vet claim for you to recoup, or maybe even have Menu Foods deal directly with the bills. I hope this applies in your case and that your cat gets well again soon.

All the best,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx

yes, menu foods will pay, but you have to prove it was caused by food. so i get the feeling i wont see that money for a long time!!!


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## jazaroo

Moxie, it doesn't seem realistic to me to believe that everyone with a sickened animal is going to be in a position to have the immediate access to thousands of dollars to treat their animals. I would speak to your vet and find out what his position on this is and whether there are specific markers/tests that he can run to prove the tie in to IAMS causing your pets illness. I would also call some of the top veterinary hospitals in your area and explain your position, that you are a student on a limited budget, and what their recommendations would be to anyone like yourself that needs help with a Menu Food's sickened animal that is in a financial bind. Maybe others have thoughts or ideas on this as well.

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey

By the way, I talked with Moxie on the phone and gleaned the following:

1) The bird's starting to grow feathers around the site, demonstrating that it's finally almost finished with the infection/inflammation battle. We're lookin' pretty good here, now. He's getting pretty close to release.

2) The cat's not acute--its symptoms are vague and not severe. The panic is based solely on the bloodwork and the advice from the veterinary hospital that "if it were MY cat... ". Moxie worked there and so believes them to be good enough folks that they wouldn't steer her wrong. I think I got that the cat's symptoms weren't enough by themselves to warrant taking him in--it was when she matched the UPC codes for the food that she was giving him (some of it, anyhow) to one listing that she discovered that the stuff was part of that implicated in the recall. That, more than the cat's symptoms, precipitated the bloodwork and the results of that precipitated the future further testing.

If I got all that right, that is.

Pidgey


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## sabina

Well we know that Moxie's cat is showing signs of kidney failure (vomiting, drinking more, and lethargy), that there are a lot of cases of renal failure associated with the contaminated food, and that lots of animals have died. I'm sure the vet did testing which showed that the cat's renal function was compromised. Which means that the cat does need lab work, IV fluids, and medications. To me, the only "optional" parts of the treatment would be the cardiac testing and the kidney ultrasound. But I suppose that depends on how bad the murmur is. And the ultrasound is probably to see the extent of the kidney damage, whether or not it's reversible, if there are crystals in the tubules, etc, so I can understand why they'd want to do that as well.
I thought it seemed like she was being overcharged, but Moxie did speak to a different vet initially and was given a similar estimate. So, to me it seems best for the cat to stay in the hospital and get treated.
Sabina


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## sabina

Pidgey--

I'm a bit confused by what you wrote.

1) How is the bird getting close to release if he has an open wound that extends down to the bone? Or is 1 1/2 in deep?

2) Even if the symptoms are vague, bloodwork shows definitively if the cat is in renal failure (is has elevated BUN and creatinine). So if the cat had bloodwork done which indicated "kidney damage," then that sounds pretty acute to me. 

Sabina


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## Pidgey

Because it's not an open wound down to the bone as such. There has been a small hole that one can enter through and probe under the skin for a half-inch in one direction and an inch-and-a-half in the other. The bone shard that she got out the other day may have been a part of the fibula, which is almost a vestigial relic at this point. It's not horribly important to the function of the leg.

In this context, it represents the last of the major debris to be removed from the hole. For awhile, there was more of the inflammatory debris that, in my experience, is formed in these kinds of wounds and that is now shutting down--production is stopping and the wound is now beginning to seal off. The only stuff that she's seeing now is real granulating tissue and attempting to debride it is only causing it to bleed. That's normal for that kind of wound at this point in the game.

The area above and surrounding it that was bare of feathers is beginning to grow them again. You don't usually see that until that kind of wound is about to close on its own for good, if both Pierpont and DD are any indication.

As to the cat, what I mean is that the cat isn't throwing up everything it eats--it only does it occasionally. She even chalked it up to an occasional furball. I guess what she's not seeing is a cat in obviously acute, late-stage renal failure, ready to die at any moment--she's just got a cat that's obviously not feeling real spunky.

That's what I mean.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Moxie, I'm so sorry to hear about your cat and the news you received today.
Just hang in there and something will work out. If you purchased the food 
from the same place, there may be someone that remembers you, or a way to
trace through your bank account if you paid w/a card. I know this hit you hard, but try and brainstorm on it for a bit and you may come up w/a way
to show that you were using "Product".

Some years ago, I brought my black lab in for tests as I was noticing some
changes in her behvior. The vet (pretty famous for his work w/wolves) called me and told me that Sara had a little over 20% of her kidney function left. He told me that there was not really
much to be done about it except to get her onto prescription dog food that was low in protein. It has to be prescription only because it is lower in protein than the law allows in manufactured pet food. Now Sara was just an old black lab, getting close to curfew on the planet, so I know that it's not the same as w/your cat who has eaten the tainted food. But Sara was very much helped by the lowered protein which brought her almost another year of enjoyable life. I'm wondering if you might inquire about this for your cat.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx

yes, the first vet told me that it seemed there was nothing to worry about, as his symptoms were not bad. BUT the only time you can do anything about it is when the symptoms are not bad, so the vet said wait for the bloodwork, and then he called and said to bring him in right away, and if i couldnt bring him there, take him anywhere (this vet is a little far away)
so, i took him to this place, the place he's at now, and they heard the same thing, a heart murmur, and have to do all of these tests. one, they have to check his heart before they can begin heavy IV fluids, and do an ultrasound also.

they give you an estimate on cost, a high and a low. here it is:

description LOW HIGH

exam ER 130 130
registration 11 11
admit feline 27 27
CCU hospitalization 304 456
CCU medications and fluids 170 255
catheter intracath 95 95
catheter maint. 2 cath 116 174
SQ fluids MAX 50 75
CBC 46 46
culture arobic and sensitivity 73 73
general profile 60 60
NOVA renal panel 65 65
T4 25 25
urinalysis 35 35
Thorax 2 view 0 168
cardiology package 346 346

ALOT huh? anyways, this is worst case scenario, IF THEY HAVE TO DO ALL OF THESE TESTS!! this place is a really good animal hospital, they have dealt with some of these animals affected by the food, while others really havent. i have to find out everything tomorrow. also, there is a teaching hospital, but it is way in western MASS, and impossible for me to go back and forth from. no car. so, i think i have the money now. at least the "money down" portion. some very very nice people lended me the money. 
this hospital does great things for all the animals in the community, and the first vet i took him to gave me the same estimate, saying at least a grand, and that vet is a very cheap vet, and that vet even let me pay some now and some later. very nice of him. i also used to volunteer at this hospital, so i know some of the people that work there, i said "all the volunteer hours i put in, cant i get a break??" but they said so many people who volunteered there were bringing in all their family and friends animals claiming them as their own to get cheap vet bills. i can apply for a small break in the bill, but that takes a while to process, which doesnt do anything for me as far as the "MONEY DOWN" part. 
so, as soon as i know anything, i'll let you all know tomorrow...


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## feralpigeon

On the topic of the injured feral, I think this bird needs to be looked at professionally for us to be certain that there are no other fragments and
to be certain that there are no problems w/the wound encapsulating pus
or necrotic tissue.

I don't know that it could possibly hurt, and it stands to most likely help the
bird. AG's reputation w/feral pigeons speaks for itself and this is certainly a 
complicated enough situation that it warrants a hands on examination by a 
medical professional twho can also run diagnostics. I'd hate to see this bird
released only to have problems that might have been avoided.

Moxie, you are going through such incredibly difficult times right now, and
your cat and studies seriously need your attention. If you are unable to make it to NYC it's understandable, if you are able to continue w/plans it would remarkable indeed. 

If the bird is unable to be shuttled to NYC via bus, is it possible for the bird
to take what would be a very short trip via Delta Airlines and their Pet
Express program? I for one would be willing to contribute to this effort
to help the bird and ultimately you as this has to be a hardship for both of you.

Perhaps others could weigh in on this?

fp


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## jazaroo

Hi Moxie,

I think part of the concern right now with your bird is that we are a little unclear on how well the healing has progressed. For some reason I had in my mind the leg might be not doing well in terms of use. Therefore, I was in contact with Pidgey to get a clearer picture and it sounds good. Could you let everyone know in a little more detail, when you get a chance, on how the bird is using its leg and doing in general.

Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Guest

Ron,
You're unclear about how the bird is healing because you don't know what is going on deep down. Nobody and I mean nobody does.

Would you go to this site and read about wound care? Take a look in the green box and see what they have to say about flushing then make up your own mind.

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2002/december/Leaper/Sharp-Debridement.html


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## Feather

Fred,

This is an interesting article. Certainly eye opening!

Moxie,

In regards to the little pigeon, since you already have the appointment, and volunteers to help you out, can you think of anyone who would like to take a complimenatry trip to NYC. Just to make sure that the little guy has a fighting chance.

I understand your situation. I was watching my friends dog who was eating Iams. I ran down to the store and bought a different brand that was not on the list. Later, the new off brand that I bought ended up on the list.

Fortunately, little Roxie wouldn't eat it. I started making my own food, with chicken, carrots, and rice.

Good Luck with your fur, feathers, and classes,

Feather


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## Guest

Feather,

It is certainly an eye opener. 

Flushing a superficial wound is just about all one can do. When it goes deep as in this case, it won't help unless surgery is used to clean out the debris. When that is necessary, a vet will use a sterile, saline solution every few minutes as needed after cutting and scraping out dead and infected tissue.

Sterile saline solution doesn't come from tap water or bottles we can buy in a grocery store plus salt from a salt shaker and it doesn't go into a non-sterile paper cup or glass to be used with a non-sterile bulb for squirting it into ears. The equipment is one use only and then it is sterilized for future use. This needs care or else the very real danger of infection on top of infection is there. Tweezers should never have been used and especially non-sterile ones that were used and reused. Using the tweezers is surgery without anesthesia and this bird was gasping from the pain and if you want to know where that suggestion came from, see the story of Pierpont.

Antibiotic use comes with dangers like the production of budding yeast cells and it isn't something to be discounted because yeast can be elsewhere in the body other than the digestive system but when I tried to point that out, I was umm, dismissed.

As soon as a BB was discovered and that it was far below the surface, that's when everything that was being done wrong in the first place should have stopped and the bird taken to a professional. There is a list of avian vets in the Boston area and calls should have been placed to all of them. I'm sure one would have taken this bird in as a paying patient. We tried to offer help but that didn't work out. 

When Pidgey says granulation tissue is forming, it's forming in areas where there is no necrotic or infected tissue so it's meaningless. 

Again, I am saying that I don't know what is going on deep because only a surgeon would be able to clean this out properly and tell us what was going on.

I was fighting hard for this bird with everything in me but all I got for my efforts was a black eye from across the lake and a "Here Here" from somebody who is an admitted ignorant person when it comes to rehabilitation so I basically gave up trying. I wasn't preaching from lofty heights. I was fighting for the life of this bird and failed. Nobody can say that this bird will make it because he didn't drop dead now. It could take weeks after he's released but by that time, the evidence of errors made will have been gotten rid of and be long gone.

One other thing. I find it astounding that anyone would try to dissuade one of us from going to an animal hospital hinting that a vet could put the bird down but that was actually done here. This site isn't a place to save birds. It's a fiefdom.


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## Feefo

> Take a look in the green box and see what they have to say about flushing then make up your own mind.


If you look at the management of wounds in the avian casualty of the same site you would find this reminder: _The principles of wound management in small animals have been well documented . *In the avian species, these principles must be adapted to take into account important differences in anatomy, physiology and pathology *_

The sad truth is that because of their respiratory system birds are more likely to die under anaesthesia than people or other mammals.

The avian casualty page does not cover bullet wounds, the closest it comes to that is caught by cat wounds and there it recommends _ *Bite wounds should be aggressively cleaned and flushed with saline or 0.05*% chlorhexidine. Flushing may need to be repeated. Puncture wounds can be left open to drain but lacerations should be dressed to protect the underlying tissues:_

Debridement under anaesthesia is only recommended (in the case of caught by cat wounds) for torn pectoral muscles.

I have only had three shot piogeons to deal with but all of them healed well after I had cleaned their wounds with sterile saline and dressed them with hydrocolloid gel.

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

> *I was fighting hard for this bird with everything in me *but all I got for my efforts was a black eye from across the lake and a "Here Here" from somebody who is an admitted ignorant person when it comes to rehabilitation so I basically gave up trying. I wasn't preaching from lofty heights. *I was fighting for the life of this bird and failed*.


I am totally confused now, Fred. How could anyone interpret your statement with which you started that post "*It's time to put this bird to sleep*" as fighting for the pigeon's life?

Cynthia


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## sabina

Feather,

That is a good idea--free trip to NYC for the weekend for anyone willing to deliver a package! ok well the bus trip is for free, I think we'd only put Raina up in our tiny apt! Let's see what happens, how the cat is doing etc...I think she is still thinking of coming by real quick  

Sabina


----------



## Guest

Cynthia,
The days of picking my words apart are over. Read how the bird was gasping in pain and why and better than analyzing how I felt about it, how did you feel about it?


----------



## Feefo

I am certain that your reply must make some sense to you, Fred, but it totally baffles me. 

Cynthia


----------



## sabina

Has anyone heard from Moxie? I haven't heard from her since Tuesday night, and last she said to me was not to cancel the vet appt, that she may still try to come today. The fact I haven't heard from her at all makes me worry...I hope her cat is doing ok, and that she is just swamped with school and all.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

HI EVERYONE!! yes Sabina, i can't make the trip today because of everything that is going on. i was at school yesterday and until 9 pm also. i couldnt post because my computer was on the fritz, couldnt get it online. i've been having some problems with it.
anyways, i want to still get this bird to NY, but it doesnt look like it will be until next week. this is just so stressful. i talked with my professor last night and she is recommending that i take an incomplete in her class to do it over.
i missed so much of that class at the beginning of the semester, 2 weeks, because i kept getting VERY sick and they thought it was appendicitis. i am starting to think i got sick because of the cat food, i was so broke for a while that i was eating it, he he he...just jokin'!
but really, even the vet said i could of gotten some on my hands and it could of made me sick, i guess one lady was sick for that same reason, and had her appendix taken out, because she tasted the food before giving it to her cat! crazy, huh?
anyways, Kitty is still in the hospital. looks good right now. they are discharging him, because his kidney levels are up but not real high, and is being put on a special diet. he still needs an ultrasound and an electrocardiogram, but they are going to schedule that for in a few months because i guess they are so swamped with ultrasounds that they couldnt get it done yet, and to keep him in until it gets done, they would just be charging me all this money to keep him inpatient, and the vet said it isnt crucial to get it done right now considering the levels and she is keeping in mind that it will save money doing it this way. i am also getting some money knocked off the bill from some financial assistance. this is very good news!! and this will give me 2 months to come up with the money for these extra tests!
so, i hate not being able to take BB right now. but my classes are failing, well, one class, because i missed last weeks mid-term amidst all of this chaos. and with my cat getting sick, well, he's my buddy, he's family, and as much as i love BB too, i had to choose. so, i am still going to new york, although even later. you know, this would of all been done a long time ago but i was steered into thinking he was ok, by the rehabber, and now with this, so i dont want people thinking that i am a horrible person for what has happened, a lot isnt my fault. and unlike a lot of people who i read on here who arent willing to DRIVE their CAR 30 miles for a pigeon, me, without a car, will take a BUS a lot further, it's just things have gotten way in the way recently. 
i am not going to say when i can come yet, but as soon as i can, things are obviously being taken minute by minute here, so the soonest i can i am taking him, i'm sorry if any of you view this as cruel or selfish, but i know the truth, that i have done everything i felt was right at that moment, and if i would of known back then what i know now, i would of ignored the rehabber's advice and taken him to NY, but i cant be the only one on here that didnt know anything about pigeons and taken the advice of a seemingly experienced REHABBER and suffered for it, and my life as a student without a car, working also, with now a cat in the hospital prevents me from jumping in my car (that i dont have) and doing a quick trip to NY. some of you know this. others dont. also, i've explained this before, and even the rehabbers up here have told me, no vets will see him as a wild bird, and those that will i cant get to. western mass is harder to get to than NYC, trust me. also, even TUFTS wont treat if he's unreleasable, and they wont give him back to me if he is unreleasable. NY is the only option, and i'm trying here, i really am. i have to go back to the hospital now. i'll check in later.


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## Charis

Moxie,
The thought just occured to me that perhaps you can find treatment in Boston for the bird if you have him treated as a pet.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i can bring him to NY within the next week.. also, if this lady that IS a bird rehabber messed up, how do i know if i PAY for a vet up here that isnt experienced in avian will do any better? the one vet that is recommended well for avian is in western MASS. also, i am broke as broke can be after this trip to the vet for my cat. i mean, i had to borrow a lot of money from people.


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## sabina

Ok Moxie clearly NO ONE thinks you are cruel and selfish, if anything, we all worry that you do TOO MUCH. No one could say you haven't tried your very best to do the right thing for this bird. Do not feel guilty one iota. We all know how much you give of yourself, amidst everything else that is going on in your life.

About the kitty--phew! Good to hear he's ok. And thank goodness the hospital didn't go overboard on testing. It does sound like they were being on the cautious side with keeping him there, given his kidney function was relatively ok (you don't happen to know what his BUN and creatinine were, do you?)

We look forward to seeing you in NYC  

Sabina


----------



## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> i can bring him to NY within the next week.. also, if this lady that IS a bird rehabber messed up, how do i know if i PAY for a vet up here that isnt experienced in avian will do any better? the one vet that is recommended well for avian is in western MASS. also, i am broke as broke can be after this trip to the vet for my cat. i mean, i had to borrow a lot of money from people.



Moxie, would it be helpful for you to have us pay for fare to send him via Pet
Express? Uchiwa was sent from SF to Nebraska in less than 24 hours I believe
for around $160. I figure it can't be more money or time from Boston to NYC.

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

i mean, if any of you think it's that important to get him down there ASAP instead of waiting until tuesday, i'll let all of you think it over??
oh, Sabina, i guess it's not that i think any of you think that, and especially you and some others, but at a time like this i feel horrible having to choose my cat over BB, and with everything thats happened, well, i just feel stupid for listening to the first lady....


----------



## xxmoxiexx

oh, the appontment wasnt until saturday anyways. also, i can probably bring him down tuesday, but i wanted to wait for some of the chaos to calm here for a day or so before i commited to that actual day so if something drastic happened in the next day or two i wouldnt have a repeat of all of this. 
but if you guys dont think that is soon enough? i mean, i'm obviously concerned about him, but someone told me i need to post about thew actual bird, and not the wound all the time. the bird seems lively, is eating and drinking and pooping, and is using the leg pretty darned good now.
i'll update more in the morning, i want to go snuggle with kitty now, he is SO happy to be home!


----------



## Feefo

Hi Moxie,

I am so glad that things seem to be going well for the kitty. My elderly cat lived for 3 years after she had been diagnosed with renal failure at the age of 14 and given days to live. 

Please believe me that none of us thinks badly of you, you have already done so much for the pidge. From our own experience we know that getting a bird an untested rehabber or an unknown vet is not always the answer to their problems. There is so much ignorance even among the so called experts.

Cynthia


----------



## sabina

Hi Moxie,

I cancelled the appointment for tomorrow at AG. Rita is there Mon, Wed, and Sat. So if you're coming Tues, then I'd have to schedule the appt for Wed. So if you're sure about Tuesday, let me know (in the next couple days) and I'll call and make the appt. 

Sabina


----------



## xxmoxiexx

thanks Sabina, let me give it a few days to calm down, and we'll see what it looks like from there....
i gotta go to work for the night, so i'll see you all later!


----------



## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> thanks Sabina, let me give it a few days to calm down, and we'll see what it looks like from there....
> i gotta go to work for the night, so i'll see you all later!


Moxie, this is why I am suggesting having this bird shipped through Pet Express.
I think the bird would benefit by being looked at, and in the meantime it's way 
too stressful for you to go to NYC right now.

All you would have to do would be to drop the bird off and call it a day.
Is this possible?

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

do you think it is safe to ship a bird in this condition, that needs to be medicated? 
update on my cat, he has a heart condition, a heart murmur, which is caused by thickening of the heart valve. from what i've read about it, the prognosis isnt very good, but the vet isnt in again until monday so i cant get the whole story yet. has anyone had a cat with this before? it is called "HCM", or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.


----------



## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> do you think it is safe to ship a bird in this condition, that needs to be medicated?
> update on my cat, he has a heart condition, a heart murmur, which is caused by thickening of the heart valve. from what i've read about it, the prognosis isnt very good, but the vet isnt in again until monday so i cant get the whole story yet. has anyone had a cat with this before? it is called "HCM", or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.



Moxie, in the house I am currently in, when I moved here there was a cat that came by every day. A very pretty orange tabby who had been abandoned by an apartment building tenant who moved out and left the cat behind.

The cat had no where to live and was constantly getting beat up on because it was de-clawed. She had a paw that was swelling into the size of a baseball bat because another feral had clawed it so I detained her in my basement. The vet said that she also had a heart murmer. That was almost
eight years ago and she was about 3 years of age when I took her in. You
could say she's been permanently detained and very happy about it as well.

Moxie, the airplane ride to New York from Boston is a very short distance
timewise, you're looking @ maybe 50 minutes.
A shipping box w/foam padding in the bottom would be fine, the shipping
containers are handled properly by Pet Express. Your bird would be in NYC
in time for the next round or close enough, if the answer is yes then the details would need to be worked out. But it would probably be a good idea 
for AG to follow up on this and it doesn't look as though you can make it.

fp


----------



## Charis

It sound like sending the bird via Pet Express my be less stressful in the long run than a bus trip. 
It would also help relieve your stress level, Moxie. You deserve that.
I also have a cat with a heart murmer and she is 18.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

FP, i was dropping the bird off with people so that any follow up they could handle. how much would the shipping be? i can pitch in some money, not much though. 
ok, so, i can either take the bus on tuesday, and i know now i can definately go, as my roommate will be home so if anything happens with kitty he can handle it, or do this shipping.
you know, i cant see any more pus in the wound. i am going to be gone for tonight, will be back in the morning, and then i am going to be gone most of the day tomorrow. 
what i am wondering, is if i shipped or took the bus, he would be getting an appointment the same time either way. let me ask a member what appointment could be scheduled.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

you know what, i just e-mailed the member who is going to watch the bird, and asked her to see when the soonest apopintment is. i figure let's see when the appointment is, and work it from there? sound like a plan?


----------



## feralpigeon

Moxie, I don't know what the status is at this point on the bus trip to NYC.
Do you currently have the bus ticket, if not, when will you get it and are
the funds on hand?

The last post sounded 'iffy', if you have taken the tentative element out
of it and can commit to getting the bird to NYC on Tuesday, I think Sabina and
Aias were willing to take it from there. They simply couldn't make the appointment on a speculative basis.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

Moxie, if you can bus without question on Tuesday, I wouldn't worry about the
day that an appointment can be scheduled with AG. Just bus on Tuesday and
let Aias and Sabina work out the rest. They need the bird in hand to be able
to work w/AG.

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

well, i made it sound iffy because i wasnt sure if it was going on tuesday or being shipped. i really am not a flake, it's just obviously things have gotten in the way. reading this thread makes it look like i'm a total flake or something, just because both times i was gonna come down, well, first time, saw the rehabber up here, and last time, the cat. god, i really dont want any of you to think i'm a total flake because i would hate people to take my word only half way because of this experience making it seem like i back out of my word, well, i did back out, but both times for legible reasons.
i can make it tuesday, and i talked to aias and sabina, i just wanted to know what day the appointment was going to be on so i could figure out what day he needed to be down there. i wont get ticket until i know that, because if it's on tuesday, then i need to come down EARLY tuesday, if it's not on tuesday, then i dont have to worry about making it until whenever on tuesday. see what i mean? 
the hole is actually looking pretty good, there is no more stuff flushing out, andi havent prodded him, but looking in it's looking good, but i want to get him looked at anyways, because i thought he was fine before with the rehabbers advice and look what happened.
thanks everyone for being so willing to help out, i very much appreciate it. 
i'm off to work, see you later!!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, i am going tomorrow to find out about the ticket and everything. and i see what you all mean, i am trying to make order out of this chaos, so considering everything that has been happening, you're all right in that i should get down there then make appointment. 
i have class all day tomorrow, wont be home till night, then i'll let you all know the details!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, i need some advice. i'm taking the bus in the morning with BB, and they will only allow one carry on and one to put below. the carry on cant be larger than a backpack, no duffel bags. so, i got a box to put in the backpack, do you think that will be fine? its shoebox sized, but close to twice as tall. is that big enough?
any other ideas for the ride? 4 hours, will he be fine, obviously i cant keep checking on him, or he could fly away or it will draw attention to me. no pets allowed of any kind, so i'm worried about this all. anyone have good smuggling advice? smuggling stories, anyone?


----------



## Reti

You could give him chamomille tea to drink, starting now. Thay will help to keep him a bit calm.
No food and water in the box, you know that.
Four hours he will be fine, I just hope he won't start cooing, I doubt it though. I noticed that when they are terrified they are very quiet.
Best of luck tomorrow.

Reti


----------



## feralpigeon

Adding to Reti's suggestions, air holes, err on the side of caution w/air holes
then open the backpack to let air in while you're riding. If you could tape something like turkish or paper towels to the floor so that you don't hear the click, click, click of the toe nails that might be good. It will also give pij something providing traction. Are you set w/cost of ticket?

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

reti, how much chamomile tea? like a bag of tea, and tube feed it to him? just elaborate on it for me, sorry, dont want to mess it up? anything else i can give or do to calm him down?


----------



## Pidgey

Actually, they calm down a lot when they're in the dark. If the backpack is kept so that he's got plenty of air but it's pitch black, he'll settle into kind of a trance. They do that in shipping.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

xxmoxiexx said:


> reti, how much chamomile tea? like a bag of tea, and tube feed it to him? just elaborate on it for me, sorry, dont want to mess it up? anything else i can give or do to calm him down?



Put a bag in a cup like you would do for yourself, but leave it in the cup only for a few minutes, until it gets some color and let him drink it. Serve room temperature.

Reti


----------



## feralpigeon

Moxie, I think you brew just a regular cup of tea and then you could give as the source of water. You could tube some before packing up in the morning for the
trip although if you are nervous about tubing then skip it as the bird should be fine for that amount of time without. Some folks tube before shipping w/the
USPS but that's a different scenario.

fp


----------



## sabina

Hi everyone,
BB pigeon made the trip to NYC, safe and sound...though apparently a bit loudly! I guess that chamomile wasn't enough, he was pecking away at his box, with Raina trying to cover up the noise with coughing! I'm sure she'll tell you about that later. BB's settled into a cage, I only got a glimpse when I got back from work late this evening. 
BB has an appointment at AG tomorrow at 1pm. Aias will take him and post an update afterwards.
Sabina


----------



## TAWhatley

Great news and well done Moxie, Sabina, Aias, and everyone who has been in on this. I'll be hoping for real good news after the vet check tomorrow.

Terry


----------



## Feefo

Well done, all of you! 

Let's hope that the news after the appointment is good news.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

That is great news. Thank you all wonderful people.
I hope we have some good news today.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

I'm glad the bird has arrived and will be looking for an update after the appointment. Thank you to all involved for making this happen, especially Moxie, Sabina, and Aias.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Sabina - thank you so much for the update. I am so happy BB made the trip OK and will be getting help today.

I want to say a very special thank you to Moxie. This has not been easy for you, being a student, working, worrying about your kitty plus the pigeons you have been rescuing. You have probably done the most remarkable thing I have ever read on this forum - to travel 4 hours by bus to get this sweet pigeon help. I think you are a remarkable young lady.

Sabina and Aias. You two are remarkable also. You have sent Moxie medicine and helped her all along the way to get BB help. I am so glad you became members of this forum.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

yes, Aias and Sabina ROCK!! they're my personal rockstars, i just need them to dress up in some 80's outfits, all flourescent with feathery hair, and make a poster to hang on my wall. well, a few others would have to get in on that one too though, hmmm... Pidgey? who else is in? he he...
so, BB was in this pretty small box, and i had to put the backpack on, so the shirt covered him up for a bit, then he got out and started to make a ruckus! he was stomping and pecking at the box, so i was coughing and grunting like i had some crazy cold, THEN i would hold my bag up, and unzip it to peek in, but i had to hold it real high to let light into the holes to be able to see, so i told the guy next to me and a few others on the way that i baked a cake for my friends birthday and was going to surprise her, and was worried that the bumpy ride would mess it up. they were just a little perplexed as to why i wouldnt BUY a cake in NYC instead! ok, it was the best i could come up with!! so my brain is a little slow on the uptake lately with all this stress!! he he he!! BB was sooo happy to get out of that box! he was in it for 6 hours!! he seemed to know right where to go, the ONLY spot in Aias's and Sabina's house where pidgey's arent allowed, the nice blinds!! Aias put him in his new cage then, so he just chilled out yesterday. he's got some very pretty pidgey and feline friends there too! the new squeaker they have is simply AMAZING!! so so sooo soft!
so, i'm waiting for the call from Aias, so i can give a case history to the doc, wish the little guy luck!!


----------



## Reti

What an adventure for both of you  
I am so glad it worked out. Thank you Moxie, hope the report from the clinic will be a good one.
Aias and Sabina, you are both wonderful. Great teamwork all of you.

Reti


----------



## sabina

Ok Aias is on his way back from the visit now, I'll post a preliminary report.

BB King (a black pigeon who's been through enough to sing the blues, according to Aias  ) has a bad roundworm infection and a serious yeast infection. Rita was a bit concerned about the effects of 6 wks of antibiotics on his intestinal flora, he seemed hit pretty hard. He's on quarantine due to the roundworm infection. She said his leg seemed to be healing well. Aias didn't have the x-ray result when I spoke to him. She said the one leg was a little shorter than the other, but it seemed pretty functional. Will have to give the update on the x-ray and meds given when Aias gets home.

Will post on April (pretty new squeaker, that's her name for now) on her thread. 

Sabina

P.S. Thanks for all the kind words, you all are so sweet and supportive!


----------



## Feefo

Thanks for the update, Sabina. Even a few roundworms can debilitate a pigeonm he should feel a lot better soon. Is he on Nystatin for the yeast infection?

It is excellent news that the leg is healing well,

Cynthia


----------



## Whitefeather

sabina said:


> * *She said his leg seemed to be healing well.*
> 
> ** *Rita was a bit concerned about the effects of 6 wks of antibiotics on his intestinal flora, he seemed hit pretty hard.*
> 
> Sabina


Thank you for the update Sabina & thank you for all you & Aias have done to help Moxie & this sweet pij.

* This is wonderful news.  

Aias,
** I'm just curious, did Rita feel BB had been over medicated or given to much of a variety of medications? 

Cindy


----------



## Maggie-NC

Wonderful news, Sabina. I think as soon as the worms are taken care of BB King will be feeling much better. I wouldn't be surprised if they prescribe Itraconazole for the yeast infection since it is so bad. It can do a really good job though. Our little Milo (dove) had a severe yeast infection and it took a while but it knocked it out completely.

You guys are the greatest!


----------



## Pidgey

Yeast in the fecal? I doubt they'd give Itraconazole for that, more like straight probiotics with Nystatin.

Pidgey


----------



## xxmoxiexx

WHOA!! i wonder if i should have seen those worms in his poo? are they big? poor guy!!
what are the effects of antibiotics on his intestinal flora, and what the heck is intestinal flora?


----------



## Reti

xxmoxiexx said:


> WHOA!! i wonder if i should have seen those worms in his poo? are they big? poor guy!!
> what are the effects of antibiotics on his intestinal flora, and what the heck is intestinal flora?



Our intestines (and that of all animals) have the normal bacteria which live there and help in digestion and fight the bad bacteria that enter our guts, they also produce vitamin K. If you take antibiotics for a long time those bacteria get killed and then the bad bacteria, fungi and viruses take over. Not having the normal residents in our intestines can cause vitamin deficiencies and malabsorption and makes us prone to infections.
That is why we give probiotics, those are the good bacteria we need to have.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Good gut bacteria inside the intestines provide good intestinal flora, and is usually next to nothing when antibiotics are given, as antibiotics kill good bacteria as well as bad bacteria.

So, it is important to replensih it with probiotics, aCV and kefir/or yogurt.


----------



## sabina

Ok so here are the meds prescribed:

Nystatin 1.0 ml twice a day for 10-14 days
Albon 0.1ml twice daily for 6 days (apparently there was coccidiosis as well)
Panacur 0.09 ml once daily for 3 days

Unfortunately I don't know the strengths of any of the meds. I'm not so happy about the Panacur. We have Ivermectin, and Aias did tell her that. What should we do?

And she didn't end up doing an x-ray. Apparently she didn't think it was really necessary, and was considering doing so only out of curiosity. I think Aias is going to post shortly so that will give a bit more info...

Sabina


----------



## xxmoxiexx

well, i'm just so glad he's mostly ok, i was really stressing about it, to tell you the truth, i've just had so much going on with everything, i'll be a lot happier picking him up then dropping him off, thats for sure!! i was almost gonna tell aias that if they put him to sleep to not tell me or something, but how would that fly when i asked about picking him up!!
just felt guilty for not bringing him down ASAP, but i'm glad BB king is better! 
Sabina, what is the Panacur for, and why does it worry you?


----------



## Reti

I don't know about the Panacur, there have been too many horror stories around lately and I had two pijies getting sick from it. I won't use it again.
I do prefer Ivomec. I accidentally overdosed one pij once with it, gave it 10 times the recommended dose, but pij was ok. I think it is safer than Panacur.

Sounds ike BB King is doing good. I am so glad.

Reti


----------



## xxmoxiexx

what is panacur given for? why would they give it if it has had so many horror stories??


----------



## Skyeking

xxmoxiexx said:


> what is panacur given for? why would they give it if it has had so many horror stories??


It is given for parasites in different species of birds. Pigeons do not respond to it very well, and most vets don't know this.


----------



## feralpigeon

Good stuff, Moxie, Aias and Sabina, glad that Rita had a look at BBKing and why he might still be singing the blues. Moxie, sometimes folks alternate antibiotics w/probiotics for this reason, to assist in maintaining good flora/fauna. I've also read that nematodes and yeast infections also enjoy a correlation w/one another. Moxie, I don't think there is anything that you could have done about worms in terms of knowing they were
there.....sometimes you see them, sometimes you don't, although it's decidedly not magic. It's why many folks who rehab treat for worms w/out the fecal float. In a feral that would otherwise be anticipated as releasable, there is no need not to, if not going to a provider who does lab work or if not able to do one's own. And, on first 'professional provider' examination, this was looked at, which is as it should be and the bird will be treated.
This is why I asked Sabina if it were possible to send worming meds to you, many of us worm on GP--general principle that is. 

Sounds as though BBKing needs a tune-up for now at least. Just seeing the
update, Sabina, what kind of worm did she say it was? I'd prefer not to have
BBKing on Panacur, I can overnight worming meds to you if needed.

fp


----------



## Aias

AZWhitefeather said:


> * This is wonderful news.
> 
> Aias,
> ** I'm just curious, did Rita feel BB had been over medicated or given to much of a variety of medications?
> 
> Cindy


she didnt say so explicitly, but yes, both karen and rita were quite amazed that this incredible pigeon made it through six weeks of that. he also has cocciodiosis, so he has been battling yeast, round worm and coccidiosis as well as the stress and trauma of being shot poked and bothered.

he is a remarkable pigeon, through all of that he weighs 300 grams wing slaps with remarkable accuracy and power. i have no doubt he will be released in complete health.


----------



## sabina

Moxie, 
Here are 2 links about Panacur (thanks to Cynthia):
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18973&referrerid=560
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/anthelminiticdrugs.cfm

I just emailed Rita about the Panacur. Aias trusts her judgment and wants to continue the Panacur (one dose was given today), I don't see why it merits the risk. We have Ivermectin drops here. Is there any reason Panacur would be better than Ivermectin?

Sabina


----------



## xxmoxiexx

wow, i mean, i guess i knew that the long time on antibiotics wasnt good, but i didnt know it could of killed him, and i guess i didnt know too much about probiotics either. well, i'm so new to all of this, i'm glad he's in more capable hands for now...
poor Aias, he has to pluck ALL the feathers i trimmed! and i trimmed A LOT OF FEATHERS!! i guess they filed his beak, too. his beak was worse when i got him, it was like a hawks beak, and one day i went to see him and his beak was shorter! WHAT THE HECK! so i changed his food, and there it was, the tip of his beak!


----------



## feralpigeon

I just emailed Rita about the Panacur. Aias trusts her judgment and wants to continue the Panacur (one dose was given today), I don't see why it merits the risk. We have Ivermectin drops here. Is there any reason Panacur would be better than Ivermectin?

Sabina

Sabina, please find out what worm they are treating for.

fp


----------



## Reti

Since you started it already I would finish the whole treatment. Just make sure you give the right dose, always double check and keep an eye on him. 

Reti


----------



## feralpigeon

I don't think that wormers share the same issue as antibiotics. If not comfortable w/Panacur, why use it. I've been posting the Pigeon Network
link for over a year now.

fp


----------



## sabina

fp, it's for roundworm.


----------



## feralpigeon

What format of Ivermectin?

fp


----------



## sabina

Ivermectin 0.5%, dosage reads: 2 drops to throat, repeat in 2 wks.


----------



## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> Ivermectin 0.5%, dosage reads: 2 drops to throat, repeat in 2 wks.



Sabina,

Is this injectible? Are the directions from the manufacturer or a label added
by a pigeon house? 

I have 1% Injection Ivermectin in a sterile solution that is also 2 drops down the
throat and every 21 days. Purchased from Jedd's.

fp


----------



## Aias

yes, as i found out first hand when Miso http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20037&highlight=miso bit me repeatedly and my hand was in serious trouble, i had to take major antibiotics — the end result was a gross hairy tongue! not actually hairy, but a gross yeast infection none the less  .



Reti said:


> Our intestines (and that of all animals) have the normal bacteria which live there and help in digestion and fight the bad bacteria that enter our guts, they also produce vitamin K. If you take antibiotics for a long time those bacteria get killed and then the bad bacteria, fungi and viruses take over. Not having the normal residents in our intestines can cause vitamin deficiencies and malabsorption and makes us prone to infections.
> That is why we give probiotics, those are the good bacteria we need to have.
> 
> Reti


----------



## feralpigeon

Oh, h*ll, think fur, Aias... 

fp


----------



## sabina

The ivermectin is an oral liquid solution. At least I assume it is, it doesn't say oral or injectable on the label. It appears to be the original label.


----------



## mr squeaks

Trees Gray said:


> It is given for parasites in different species of birds. Pigeons do not respond to it very well, and most vets don't know this.


ONE pigeon's (Mr. Squeaks) tale about PANACUR...

_*may*_ help ease your mind...

Squeaks' stools had always been negative. Imagine my surprise when, one day, there was a ROUND WORM in his poop! (I had worked for a Vet before moving to AZ and knew a round worm when I saw it.)

Squeaks' doctor is an Avian Vet who has pigeons of his own. He was referred to me by a racing homer pigeon fancier who, not only used Dr. Burke as his Vet, but had also given him some of his birds.

I took the round worm in to show and Dr. Burke prescribed Panacur: 

*0.05 cc daily for 3 days....Wait 3 weeks and repeat.*

Dr. Burke said this should take care of the problem. It's been almost two years and no further signs or problems.

Way AFTER the fact, I read all the "horror" stories of how bad Panacur was. All I can say is I am glad I did NOT know that at the time!

Personally, ANY medication can be bad if not given correctly or prescribed incorrectly. 

Dr. Burke said he believed in the product and had no problems. I will admit that I have NOT talked to him about Panacur in over a year, so I don't know if he has changed his mind.

Worked for Squeaks...he ended up passing around SIX more of those suckers!


----------



## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> The ivermectin is an oral liquid solution. At least I assume it is, it doesn't say oral or injectable on the label. It appears to be the original label.



Just call Rita and tell her your uncomfortable giving Panacur to the pigeon be-
cause of tests that have been done on the issue. Tell her you have Ivermectin and would like to treat w/that and let her know strength and administration instructions.

If you have an email for her at AG you could just shoot off an email. She is probably just unaware. If you had a way to send her the links I think she would understand your concerns. She may have other wormers that she could give or prescribe as well. 

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

Poor little pij - all the classic stuff going on with him.

We normally use Pyrental for worming. However, our vet did prescribe Panacur for a particularly nasty worm infestation in our ******. We gave it for three days, one time a day at a dosage of 0.09 and she weighed 357 at the time. I can't find my formulary right now but I have discussed Panacur with the vet and she said that she still felt it to be a good wormer if the proper dosage is given. If BB only weighs 300 grams that is 57 less than ****** and (maybe) a smaller dosage would be more appropriate. I will mention that ****** was treated with Pyrantal, Panacur AND Ivermectin before the worms were wiped out.


----------



## feralpigeon

There are just safer and as effective wormers for pigeons, and many times follow up treatments are necessary.

Do you want that many treatments for BBKing of Panacur?

fp


----------



## Aias

it bothers me when people think that because some one has a difference of opinion that that difference is based on lack of knowledge. [disclosure] this is a pet peeve that i have with sabina. [/disclosure] Rita is aware about the whole panacur controversy, as sabina well knows because we have discussed our concerns with Rita about it before. 

i have already started bb king on it, i trust Rita, it is a very small dose and i am not taking chances by changing to a new medication and gambling on the dosage.

in my opinion people get heated way too quick when there is a difference of opinion in this forum. all the drama in this particular thread around the differing points of view between pigeon person and pidgey in the end amounted to BOTH being right.  



feralpigeon said:


> Just call Rita and tell her your uncomfortable giving Panacur to the pigeon be-
> cause of tests that have been done on the issue. Tell her you have Ivermectin and would like to treat w/that and let her know strength and administration instructions.
> 
> If you have an email for her at AG you could just shoot off an email. She is probably just unaware. If you had a way to send her the links I think she would understand your concerns. She may have other wormers that she could give or prescribe as well.
> 
> fp


----------



## sabina

Ok so obviously Aias and I totally disagree. Fp, no, I don't want BBking to get more doses of Panacur. I am not saying that Rita isn't knowledgeable, I think she just hasn't had any bad experiences with Panacur herself so far. But obviously other people have, and that's enough for me. Maybe Moxie should decide? I did email Rita so we can also wait and see what she says.
Sabina


----------



## feralpigeon

Hope you sent along the link for Dr. Marx @ PigeonNetwork, Sabina. I don't see
that there should be drama w/Rita on the matter.

Aias, I'm sorry for assuming that Rita was unaware of Pigeon specific data on Panacur. If she has seen the article from Dr. Marx and still likes to use it w/Pigeons, I would think this would be OK to disagree w/her on especially if
willing to provide a wormer that Rita is also comfortable with. Maybe this could
be agreed upon and then in the future it wouldn't be a concern.

fp


----------



## sabina

What link from PigeonNetwork?


----------



## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> What link from PigeonNetwork?


http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/anthelminiticdrugs.cfm

Sorry, Sabina. I so frequently think of PigenonNetwork and Dr. Marx that I attributed a link I posted here at PT some time ago to him. In fact, it is 
Dr. Nils Reither D.V.M instead. BTW, Dr. Reither is also about the only supplier
that I know of on the internet at least available through residents here in the US to purchase Berrimax from. Sinornis Pharmacy puts out a line of natural 
products and Berrimax and Citromed dried up a while back w/no source to pur-
chase through. Dr. Reither is making these products available through his website, they are successful in the treatment of trichomoniasis.

http://www.mamut.com/homepages/Norway/3/17/birdmedicine/prodlist.htm

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx

AHHH!! i dont know what to say on this matter! i obviously know a whole lot less on this than anyone else, so maybe just ask Rita if she knows about the contreversy, and see what she thinks then?
wondering though, how do you spot a worm in the fecal, are they always there, or just sometimes? and are they small, tiny? 
do you think the other pijjie i have, NOT PMV, but a string injury i've had in the room with BB, could of picked up worms from him?
do i need a fecal or can i just look for them in his poo?


----------



## sabina

I did send that link to her. She just wrote back, this is what she said:

"The single dose panacur pill is a big gun and not as effective in my
experience as the three-day course of the liquid. The liquid panacur is
dosed according to weight. BB King is a solid, healthy bird. I have no
hesitation prescribing him the liquid panacur dosed according to weight.
Ivermectin is a broad based anti-parasite medicine with has some toxicity.
Panacur also has toxicity but it is targeted to nematodes (worms). It is
the more effective medicine for the problem that BB has."

Well, I feel better now. Does anyone know the formulary for the dosage based on weight? Given Maggie mentioned a pigeon which weighed more getting 0.09ml and Shi mentioned 0.05ml for Mr Squeaks...

Sabina


----------



## feralpigeon

Ahh, Sabina, don't you have a formulary?  

fp


----------



## sabina

Umm yes but it's under some books on the table in the kitchen and I was too lazy to get up, find it, put in my computer...oh so much work!  I have to put the files on my desktop like Aias told me to do in the first place...

Moxie you can read about roundworm here:
http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/parasites_worminfestation.htm


----------



## sabina

Oh alright I'll go get my formulary!


----------



## mr squeaks

I'm not positive, but Squeaks could have weighed close to a pound. 

The Panacur was 100mg/ml


----------



## sabina

Ok the dosage range is from 8-50 mg/kg. Most say 20 mg/kg. But I realize I don't know the concentration of the liquid that we have, so I have no idea how many mg are in 0.09ml. I just emailed Rita to ask her the strength of the med. And now I have to go to bed, it is way past my bedtime!
Sabina


----------



## sabina

Ok quick before I go--Mr Squeaks can't possibly weigh that much! How humongous can he be?? And Shi, how do you still know the strength of the Panacur all this time later??


----------



## Aias

No, i am sorry for singling you out FP when really it is the general assumption that bothers me.  



Aias said:


> it bothers me when people think that because some one has a difference of opinion that that difference is based on lack of knowledge. [disclosure] this is a pet peeve that i have with sabina. [/disclosure] Rita is aware about the whole panacur controversy, as sabina well knows because we have discussed our concerns with Rita about it before.
> 
> i have already started bb king on it, i trust Rita, it is a very small dose and i am not taking chances by changing to a new medication and gambling on the dosage.
> 
> in my opinion people get heated way too quick when there is a difference of opinion in this forum. all the drama in this particular thread around the differing points of view between pigeon person and pidgey in the end amounted to BOTH being right.


----------



## Aias

sabina stop bothering rita and go to sleep!



sabina said:


> Ok the dosage range is from 8-50 mg/kg. Most say 20 mg/kg. But I realize I don't know the concentration of the liquid that we have, so I have no idea how many mg are in 0.09ml. I just emailed Rita to ask her the strength of the med. And now I have to go to bed, it is way past my bedtime!
> Sabina


----------



## sabina

Ok you know things are getting bad when married people who are 10 feet away from each other are communicating through the forum!!  Alright alright I'm going!


----------



## Aias

*Moxie's and BB King's adventure*

So as you know Moxie and BB King took the four hour bus ride from boston to NYC. It was really great finally meeting Moxie and bb. Even though we only had about three hours i spoke just enough to bore her  

i forced her to run errands with me, so i took her to buy the seed to feed the pigeons and then i forced her to do the 4 'oclock feeding on the roof:










you can find a few more photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/100fires/tags/raina/


----------



## mr squeaks

I keep ALL my animal's records. I just checked back and there was the info.

Yeah, Squeaks is quite a hunk of pij! When I found him, he was only a little over 30 days old. I thought he was an adult pigeon. When I was told how young he really was, I just couldn't believe it.

Of course, since he doesn't fly, he lives the good life and does maybe eat a smidge more than he should?

You can also ask Cindy (AZWhitefeather). She can vouch about his size. He is definitely not wasting away!

In fact, I remember a time when she held him and commented, "Where's his keel bone?!" Ok, I may be exaggerating a little!


----------



## Feefo

> WHOA!! i wonder if i should have seen those worms in his poo? are they big? poor guy!!


I have only ever seen roundworms in the poop after worming the pigeon. They are quite large and the dead ones are hard and dry so they stick out of the poop. And no, you won't catch worms from BB.

My heart also sank when I read that Panacur was prescribed. I used to use the single dose capsule on my pigeons and they survived but it isn't something I would use now I am better informed about it, because it is such a risk.


This is fp's link:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/anthelminiticdrugs.cfm

Panacur is fenbendazole and even if it doesn't kill a pigeon it can do a lot of damage.

Cynthia


----------



## mr squeaks

I can definitely relate if Panacur CAPSULE was given!

Squeaks had drops. Cindy helped me administer them. Only 3 drops per day for 3 days and then we waited for a couple of weeks before the final dosage, the same as the first. All this was based on his weight.

Squeaks was definitely infested since he passed the initial one and then SIX more...full grown worms! No mistaking those babies!

I was quite shocked...his fecals had been negative!


----------



## sabina

Shi...you are much more organized than me, I am impressed. You too Maggie, I meant to start keeping records the way you do...I will do it this time!

Cynthia, I did send her that link, and she responded with the email which I posted earlier. I'm waiting to hear back on the strength of the Panacur so we know how much we are actually giving.


----------



## Feefo

> Shi...you are much more organized than me, I am impressed. You too Maggie, I meant to start keeping records the way you do...I will do it this time!


Same here! It is good practice but one of those things that I sometimes do but mostly don't get round to doing.

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC

The Panacur we have is 100 mg/ml with directions "give 20 mg/kg orally once daily for 3 days". ****** had her first round 12/8/06 for 3 days and the 2nd round 1/5/07 for 3 days.

Hopefully you will have seen lots of worms passed by now. You can't miss them. According to our vet they die when they hit the air.


To Shi: Once we got in a little one who passed over 100 after being wormed. Poor little thing felt so much better after they were all cleaned out.


----------



## sabina

100?!?!?   OMG!!! Aias, have you seen any worms yet?? I'm at work, so hopefully will miss the whole thing!

Well if the strength is 100mg/ml, for a 300g bird, at 20mg/kg, the dose comes out to 0.06ml if I'm doing my math right. Whereas we were told to give 0.09 ml. So I just emailed Rita (with apologies for bothering her AGAIN) to ask about that.


----------



## mr squeaks

Lady Tarheel said:


> The Panacur we have is 100 mg/ml with directions "give 20 mg/kg orally once daily for 3 days". ****** had her first round 12/8/06 for 3 days and the 2nd round 1/5/07 for 3 days.
> 
> Hopefully you will have seen lots of worms passed by now. You can't miss them. According to our vet they die when they hit the air.
> 
> 
> To Shi: *Once we got in a little one who passed over 100 after being wormed. * Poor little thing felt so much better after they were all cleaned out.


GOOD HEAVENS!! They must have been small then! The ones, Squeaks passed were almost an inch long. You couldn't miss 'em!!! Yeah, that first one didn't live long but I saved him to show, just to be on the safe side. 

ARE YOU SURE they were ROUND WORMS? YIKES! I BET he felt better! I am still "squirming!"

Actually, I receive visit breakdowns from my Vet and keep then together for each pet. I have Squeaks' stapled together so all I have to do is go through them. I just keep them in a folder.


----------



## sabina

Ok so Rita said that since BBking has a heavy case of roundworm, the dose is 30 mg/kg and if I wanted, I could give the lower dose, but then if it doesn't work, we'd have to do it again, which would be worse. So we'll go ahead with the dose she is recommending. I do trust her judgment. And she has been very patient and gracious with all my questioning!
Sabina


----------



## Feefo

Hi Sabina,

This is a study of what happened when pigeons were given Panacur at the 30mg/kg dose but for 5 days. It is the internal and therefore invisible damage that concerns me. I hate reading about these experiments but I would rather the pigeons involved haven't died in vain. Rita would probably never see the internal damage done to the surviving pigeons.




> Mortality Associated with Fenbendazole Administration in Pigeons (Columba livia).
> [My paper] Alfonso S Gozalo , Rebecca S Schwiebert , Gregory W Lawson
> A group of 12 domestic pigeons (Columba livia domestica) was treated for capillariasis by use of fenbendazole at 30 mg/kg orally once daily for 5 d. After treatment, 8 of the 12 pigeons exhibited signs of anorexia, lethargy, and dehydration; these birds died within 2 d after the onset of clinical signs. A total of 6 birds were necropsied, and all had unremarkable gross findings. Microscopic examination of tissues revealed acute hemorrhagic enteritis, diffuse lymphoplasmacytic enteritis, small intestinal crypt necrosis, periportal lymphoplasmacytic hepatitis, bile duct hyperplasia, and renal tubular necrosis. Erythrocytes in blood samples collected from surviving birds demonstrated polychromasia compatible with a regenerative anemia. The clinical and histopathologic findings in these pigeons were consistent with recent reports of fenbendazole toxicity in domestic pigeons and other columbiform birds


.


----------



## sabina

Oh dear. Now I'm all scared again. I feel badly though, I already emailed her 3 times, and I did send the links. I guess Aias will just have to monitor closely for those symptoms.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Sabina, with as much medication as BB is taking, he may not feel the best in the world. I think it is important to closely monitor his weight while he is being medicated to give you an idea of how he is doing. Another thing, any weight loss or weight gain would change the dosage of ANY of the medicines and you may have to adjust the dose. I would try to weigh him every morning at the same time. There was a period of time during ******'s sickness that we hand fed her and I believe that helped her to survive because she had lost well over 100 grams initially.


----------



## Aias

umm gross. it is bad enough that you mandated me to permanent poo clean up now i have to hunt for worms too?!  

one of the pigeons that came through here dropped a worm, but we were so in shock and grossed out that we got rid of it with a quickness!



sabina said:


> 100?!?!?   OMG!!! Aias, have you seen any worms yet?? I'm at work, so hopefully will miss the whole thing!
> 
> Well if the strength is 100mg/ml, for a 300g bird, at 20mg/kg, the dose comes out to 0.06ml if I'm doing my math right. Whereas we were told to give 0.09 ml. So I just emailed Rita (with apologies for bothering her AGAIN) to ask about that.


Shi, why do you keep mr squeaks worms stapled in a folder???



mr squeaks said:


> "I have Squeaks' stapled together so all I have to do is go through them. I just keep them in a folder".



bb king seems fine, preening and eating and slapping like normal.


----------



## Pidgey

Aias said:


> she didnt say so explicitly, but yes, both karen and rita were quite amazed that this incredible pigeon made it through six weeks of that. he also has cocciodiosis, so he has been battling yeast, round worm and coccidiosis as well as the stress and trauma of being shot poked and bothered.
> 
> he is a remarkable pigeon, through all of that he weighs 300 grams wing slaps with remarkable accuracy and power. i have no doubt he will be released in complete health.


Well, remember that he was first on Baytril and Metronidazole because that's about all she had. Baytril goes mostly after Gram negatives which are primarily what the bad bacteria in the gut are, rather than destroying the Gram positives. That said, it's not going to have quite the negative effect in the gut against the desirable flora that some other drugs will (like the Amoxicillin/Clavulanic Acid blend that BB got later in the game).

The decision to sustain medication was based on loose descriptions of debris still coming out of the wound (pus; the bone shard) and the alopecia (lack of feather regrowth) signaling persistent inflammation. 

In retrospect, it is an interesting exercise to speculate about what would have happened if the bird were taken to a vet immediately upon being found, and in its original condition, and at any point along the way. Of course, the sky truly is the limit given all the variations even amongst vets out there. It can be argued so far beyond the point of the cows coming home that it's not funny. And all that argument would well and truly be academic at this point but there'd be bad feelings to be sure.

We can't go back and live this one over (thank God) several times to see how it would turn out this way or that if we'd taken this leg of the fork or that one. My aim was to get the bird's leg back functioning first and foremost and deal with any side issues in their own time unless they required immediate attention. I did advise based on what I have seen and done with some of my own cases in contrast with how some of the cases on here have gone, especially some of the bad ones (by that I usually mean that the bird was put to sleep or otherwise died). 

Once upon a time, when I took Pierpont in fairly early on for the possibility of more reconstructive surgery (under anaesthesia, by the way) because of the problems I was seeing, my one vet said, "you really just need to let this bird heal for awhile." That said, I guess I have derived some of my techniques from my vets' advice (and, apparently, the barbarity).

It didn't take a rocket scientist to gather what other difficulties Moxie was having with school and then with the cat, either. I personally couldn't see pushing her too hard over this deal. I begin to realize now that I am getting pretty tired of this.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking

*round worm*

Hi Aias, and Sabina,

Have you incorporated the garlic caps in BBking's program?... That will certainly help with ridding of any parasite, and it won't hurt. I would try that first.


----------



## Aias

getting tired of what exactly?
i summarized what this bird has gone through to illustrate how remarkably tough bird this is, not to suggest that what was done to this bird (except for the bb gun shot, of course) was done with malicious intent or for the sake of barbarity. 

what i did suggest in an earlier post, is that some people are quick to take offense to things and get all inflamed because of it. my view of the whole debate between you and pigeonperson was that you were both right. your experience and guidance showed that the leg could heal in the manner you said it would, and pigeonperson was certainly right to fear the consequences of a dangerous infection that could have done the bird in at any time.

my apologies to both if i misinterpreted your individual perspectives and concerns. i avoided the whole debate precisely because i think there is too much ego play involved in some of these threads and i didnt want participate in enabling any more of that.

ay caramba!  



Pidgey said:


> .... That said, I guess I have derived some of my techniques from my vets' advice (and, apparently, the barbarity).
> 
> It didn't take a rocket scientist to gather what other difficulties Moxie was having with school and then with the cat, either. I personally couldn't see pushing her too hard over this deal. I begin to realize now that I am getting pretty tired of this.
> 
> Pidgey


----------



## Aias

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Aias, and Sabina,
> 
> Have you incorporated the garlic caps in BBking's program?... That will certainly help with ridding of any parasite, and it won't hurt. I would try that first.


treesa, nope i havent been giving the garlic caps to bb king, he is getting quite an arsenal of medicine already so it never even occurred to me. tomorrow is his last dose of panacur so i guess i could start the capsules after that. i havent found any worms yet.


----------



## Feather

Moxie, Sabina, and Aias,

You guys are my Super Heros! Moxie, you must have been under tremendous pressure. I was having my midterms too, and I couldn't have pulled that off. How fortunate that through this site that you found Sabina and Aias. I am always in Awww by what can be accomplished when people are willing to help. Moxie you did a great job at doing what you had to do until you were able to get BB King to the vet. Sometimes when people are on a limited budget, the options are limited. Thank God we have people on this site that realize this and (taking this into account) are able to work with what is workable and still save the life of the pigeon. Everyone that helped with this bird should be commended. Sabina and Aias, you two are just wonderful. It is no wonder, in this big world, the two of you found each other. Thank you for your help!

Aias, Mr. Squeaks is a very famious bird. Shi is no dumbie, she knows that those worms are a priority on the collectors lists.


Love to all,
Feather


----------



## xxmoxiexx

well, Pidgey, i hope your not tired of ME!! cause your not getting rid of me, ever! 
And Aias, you only bored me a little, not a lot!! 
so, i think that this was a tough case for EVERYONE involved, so a little back and forth is expected, although at the time it confused the heck out of me. But both Pidgey and PP both have told me that the other one is very experienced and knowledgable of pigeons, so it wasnt so much either of them discounting the others opinion, quite the opposite actually. Me and pidgey talked a few times, and he was hearing more of the whole story rather than just the bad things, as i talked to PP a lot less during this ordeal. I even told Aias that i thought BB would be fine, but i figured i would take him anyways as i had the day to do it. Pidgey heard me talk of the bird flying and bonding with the other pijjie i have, and wingslapping the heck out of me, and being a general brat. quite the opposite of laying around sick, and Pidgey told me to post on that too, rather than just the bad stuff, and as i am a slow typer, i never got into all of it, and Pidgey even posted before to excuse my slow typing, as i never will type a whole novel on the birds condition, so to understand this. Me and Pidgey both felt that BB would turn out ok.
On the other side of things, i'm new at this, so panic sets in pretty easy, especially after my first one died and having all that residual guilt of not doing more. So, PP set up a worst case scenario, i think so i wouldnt become complacent, and every time something came up, my panic probably showed in my posts. So, i think he just felt better if he could get the bird seen somehow. I guess I am partly to blame for all of this riff raff, i should of listened to Pidgey and posted more on the good stuff, and i should of not listened to rehab lady and gotten him to NY sooner.
and Aias is right, both Pidgey and PP were right in their opinions, and i respect both of them very much. they both have much to learn from. i think in this game, what you see influences how you diagnose future cases, and pidgey has seen SO MANY BIRDS heal with time, and pidgey has the room to house many sick pigeons while they take time to heal. while on the other hand, PP has less room, sees a lot of birds also, but has to get them better faster to make room for more birds, so for him instead of taking the time, he probably would rather get a definite diagnosis right away so the right meds can take care of the right problem right away, so a quicker recovery so the "hospital bed" can be given to a new pigeon. So, obviously, they are both very experieced, but both have a different, but very right way, in dealing with the birds they have. Hence the different views of dealing with cases on this forum. Both are different, but both are right.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

well! IT GOT QUIET REAL QUICK!! i seem to have that effect on people!!
Sabina, Aias, how is the little bugger doing? has he taken to you guys at all, or still being a rebel?


----------



## sabina

So BBking was feisty today, acting like a normal pigeon...eating, preening, wing-slapping whenever Aias reached into the cage. So that seems encouraging.

We did give him a garlic capsule this evening, thanks for that, Treesa. 

As Aias mentioned, we have to pull all the feathers that were trimmed so the new ones can grow in. So we decided to do 5 a day. So far, it doesn't seem too painful for him, he doesn't squirm or anything.

So did we all just forget to tell Moxie about probiotics?? It appears so! How strange that it didn't occur to anybody!! 

Oh yeah, so still no worms seen. Aias seemed to think we should sort the poo to make sure, ok wait correction, he thinks I should sort thru the poop!! I said I think it will be obvious, no searching needed! Right??


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ewwww!! although, i wouldnt mind seeing a pic of one of those suckers for future reference! Sabina, Aias?? he he he, i'll let YOU GUYS sort that one out! looks like you guys have a lot of dirty work to put into this guy too! this is a prime example of a group effort.
yes, i didnt know about probiotics really at all. i've seen it mentioned in other threads, but vaguely...
so, when you give the wormer, does it just kill the worms, or do the worms like crawl out with the poo? do they come out alive, or dead? i remember my dog had worms a long time ago, and the main symptom was the dog (or cat) would drag his/her butt on the ground to scratch that area! so i guess they know something is up there! poor things, that is just nasty!


----------



## feralpigeon

sabina said:


> ....
> 
> We did give him a garlic capsule this evening, thanks for that, Treesa.
> 
> As Aias mentioned, we have to pull all the feathers that were trimmed so the new ones can grow in. So we decided to do 5 a day. So far, it doesn't seem too painful for him, he doesn't squirm or anything.
> 
> *That's probably fine. It is apparently helpful to clip them first in terms
> of ease of pulling for the bird.*
> 
> So did we all just forget to tell Moxie about probiotics?? It appears so! How strange that it didn't occur to anybody!!
> *There are different schools of thought on co-administration of antibiotics and probiotics, of course. I can tell you this, if you choose to co-administer, then you would want at least a few hours between the two. Doctors (for humans) out in this area have been telling patients for a quarter of a century
> now, to dose concurrently and a few hours apart to help with the balance/depletion of the 'good bacteria'.*
> 
> Oh yeah, so still no worms seen. Aias seemed to think we should sort the poo to make sure, ok wait correction, he thinks I should sort thru the poop!! I said I think it will be obvious, no searching needed! Right??


*It might be a job better suited for Aias  Why not take the screen off the window and "sift" the poo like you were out here in California looking for Gold???*   

fp


----------



## Aias

thanks to everyone complementing us on our help. for the record though, i really didnt do anything except take bb king to the vet, something which any one here would have done. so u know, no big deal really.  

moxie i cant wait for his treatment to be over, i feel bad for him stuck in that cage all the time.


----------



## Feather

Aias,

Moxie, Rita, Sabina and Your modest self are the hands on link to BB's well being. But just because I didn't mention the 11 pages of those who deticated their time to helping this bird, doesn't mean that I don't recognize them. It is the way that you all care and work together that touches me. You had the best of the forum on this thread! Even though there were disagreements, devotion to a hurt bird was the underlining concern.

You are now caring for BB, so you did more than take him to the vet. It is the people that come together for the good of the bird that keeps me in Aw.

Alot of research, detication, time, and experience passes through these threads. Even if one doesn't have a pigeon, if you want to know what love is just log on to Pigeon Talk.


----------



## Aias

umm, thanks fp!
so really no visible worms in his poo and today was his last day on panacur. i hope the garlic capsules do their job.



feralpigeon said:


> *It might be a job better suited for Aias  Why not take the screen off the window and "sift" the poo like you were out here in California looking for Gold???*
> 
> fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

Aias, I'm not sure why you haven't seen any worms. I know this sounds gross but if you could take a toothpick and stir around you may find some. They vary in size from big to small. We wormed our Mr. Humphries this morning (using Pyrantel) and he has already passed one fairly large one and a few small ones that were visible. I meant to take a picture of the large one but forgot to and it went in the trash.


----------



## Feefo

> thanks to everyone complementing us on our help. for the record though, i really didnt do anything except take bb king to the vet, something which any one here would have done. so u know, no big deal really.


Aias, I strongly disagree  

In a world where so many people can't be bothered to slow down if there is a pigeon in their way and others who pay to have them killed what you, Sabina and Moxie have done is extraordinary. We often say "what goes around comes around" when confronted with cruelty, I hope that in his case it comes true and that your compassion is blessed.


Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC

Well, I wouldn't do this for just anyone  but, here is the picture of roundworms. I took 3 samples from Mr. Humphries "business" and you can see how many he had just in those samples. If you don't look really carefully in the poop you would miss them


----------



## Aias

Lady Tarheel said:


> Well, I wouldn't do this for just anyone  but, here is the picture of roundworms. I took 3 samples from Mr. Humphries "business" and you can see how many he had just in those samples. If you don't look really carefully in the poop you would miss them


thanks maggie  
i guess that will be something i will share with sabina, u know, a romantic couples thing...


----------



## Aias

*ok found some worms*

if maggie hadnt posted that photo i wouldnt have known it though. they are hiding in the poo and only a little bit sticks out of the poo. dead alright!


----------



## sabina

we only saw 2, and they only seemed maybe a centimeter in length. maggie, in your pic, those look reeeeeally long, like spaghetti long...how big were they really?

it's true, we never would've noticed if you hadn't told us we had to dig around.

sabina


----------



## Feather

Well...I see you two really are having a romantic evening.   

Thanks Maggie for giving these two some fun things to do. I hear Aias is a bit boring.

Feather


----------



## Maggie-NC

So glad you enjoyed the pics!  

In a really bad infestation you can't miss them even when you don't "dig" around because they are so numerous and big. But in a relatively mild infestation they get hidden in the poo. They seem to be "curled" up in a wad. I would guesstimate the longest one in that picture was about 1/2" but I have seen them at least 1 to 1 1/2" in some of the rescues we get in. They are beige/white in color.

BB must have been loaded with a lot of small ones if you are seeing some after 3 doses of the Panacur. Usually, most of ours pass them, on and off, the day they are wormed and the next day you don't see any.

You need to follow up with the second worming to get rid of any that may have been in the egg stage when the first worming was done.


----------



## sabina

Tee hee Feather. Yup, it was a VERY romantic evening! 

I'm sure BB was passing worms before that we didn't notice. Though they couldn't have been too big. You'd think he'd have some really big ones if he's been infested for the last couple months, no?

What second worming? I don't think Rita mentioned that. She just said to bring him back in 10-14 days to recheck the fecal. In fact, when I was going back and forth with the dosage, she said if we lowered the dose, then he might have to be treated with a second course, which would not be optimal. So it seems she was thinking 1 course would be enough. I sure hope so!


----------



## Maggie-NC

Sabina, I hope too that the one dose will be enough. I just can't remember on the Panacur if we did a follow up worming but with the Pyrantel that we use, we do have to follow up in two weeks.

We are worming one aviary today - 28 total. What a fun Saturday.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

OH! I was just messing around, Aias is quite the opposite of boring. 
BUT, you guys have to take BB in 10-14 days, huh? so when should i be trying to come down, this next weekend or the weekend after?
do pigeos pass worms even when they arent being wormed?


----------



## Feather

Well after looking at Maggie's picture, I will be de-worming here as well.

Moxie and Nona, I guess I will have to take your word on Aias's personality, but truthfully I doubted that there is a boring bone between Sabina and Aias.
I have fun just reading their posts.


----------



## sabina

I know Moxie and Feather were teasing but...Aias is a lot of things, and I can safely say boring is not one of them, that is for sure!!

Oh forgot to respond to Moxie's question...I would wait to see the outcome of the 2 week check-up. Sometimes, when we take birds for the follow-up exam, they end up needing treatment for something else that shows up in the fecal. And then we have to bring them back again. So I think we'll need to wait and see.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

you know what i forgot to tell you guys to check out, he has been having this popping sound, like when your knee pops, but a quieter, pigeon version of it, and it's usually when he gets really excited and is squirming around. rehab lady up here said it is the broken bones rubbing together, but it should of stopped by now. also, she said it would be a more scraping sound/feel than a popping sound/feel.
it almost sounded like something was popping out of joint and back in. maybe you've noticed it, maybe not, but it was definitely happening. when he would fly free, and i had to spend an hour to catch him, or if he would get all excited trying to escape the burrito, is when it would happen, maybe there's another reason for that?
anyways, might want to look for that, and/or ask about it...
ok, we'll wait and see...
i'm wondering though if my other bird has caught worms and cocii from BB? what should i do about this? 
and Aias is definitely not boring, and i'm sure he knows that too..


----------



## Pidgey

Moxie,

Most of them make that sound when they're struggling to get out of your hands. I just brought my PMV bird up to an empty room to see how he's doing (let him try some flying) and the popping was constant. They can make that sound with surprisingly little movement. Anyhow, what you're referring to is unlikely to be anything to worry about.

Aias the Anything-But-Boring,

I'm only tired of the sniping although I'm especially sensitive to it these days because I'm running 12-hour days at work at my day job fairly consistently and have another job on top of that. It's a bit wearing and my patience is getting a little thin.

Pidgey the Pooped


----------



## xxmoxiexx

Pidgey!!
i'm glad you're back! what do you think the popping is? like where it is coming from and all of that? 
how is your PMV doing? also, how contagious are worms and cocci to other birds when they have been together in the same room, eating and drinking and frolicking together?


----------



## Pidgey

Coccidiosis is the clinical disease presentation of infection by coccidia, a protozoa quite unlike the Trichomonads that cause canker. Coccidiosis causes an ulcerative irritation inside the intestinal tract. Most pigeons have been exposed and are, therefore, "carriers" of the disease organism without succumbing to the clinical disease state.

When they get really bad, they tend to drink a lot of water and slow down on the eating a lot. They may also, possibly, display other seemingly unrelated symptoms like being very reluctant to fly. They can also lose an awful lot of muscle mass due to becoming anorectic (or, at least not being able to completely digest food) and end up emaciated (end stage).

Anyhow, it's tougher than you'd think to diagnose the true clinical disease state because you can find a bunch of coccidial oocysts (think of 'em as eggs) in a fecal float without the bird exhibiting any other symptoms that'd make you think it was anything but in top shape. However, when we find a bunch of coccidial oocysts in a fecal float, we usually just go ahead and treat anyhow as it may be a secondary problem arising from something else coming on that we haven't discovered yet (and may not).

Your vet probably found worm eggs in the fecal and those would be contagious to your other birds if the poop was left around and they walked and pecked around in it. The coccidial oocysts have to "ripen" over a couple of weeks' time in a fairly damp environment. You usually don't have problems with birds getting Coccidiosis when they live in a bone-dry environment (houses usually qualify).

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, yeah, the popping sound...

...don't know, but I've always thought of it like a knuckle popping in one's hand and haven't worried about it in years--it's pretty normal. They don't all do it but I've heard it in a lot of birds that I knew had nothing whatsoever wrong with them. It's come up on here several times.

Pidgey


----------



## Aias

ok first of all i do think i am el boringo. even if little bird is quite the flatterer!
and secondly i have heard bb king make that poppin sound but i think its fine.


----------



## feralpigeon

xxmoxiexx said:


> ..... how contagious are worms and cocci to other birds when they have been together in the same room, eating and drinking and frolicking together?


Moxie, the birds get infected when they eat their own or other's droppings, or
drink water that an infected bird has pooped in. For coccidia and worms to become infective through the droppings they need to be kicking around for a couple of days to reach the infective stage. Don't let the birds have old droppings to peck at and you will minimize the potential of illness through
coprophagy.

fp


----------



## Aias

*bb king in the east village, nyc*

i thought you would like to see some photos of bb king living it up in nyc. this is the first full day of her flying around the apt. i let her out yesterday, but only for a couple hours.










she has one more dose of nystatin and then she will only have to put with our feather plucking. here are a couple of other photos of bb king: http://www.flickr.com/photos/100fires/tags/bbking/


----------



## Feefo

BB looks wonderful!

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

It's the other side that originally had the problem, right? Can you post a picture of that side?

Pidgey


----------



## Whitefeather

Thank you so much, Aias, for posting the pictures of BBKing.
He's looking super.  

Great *'hands on'* teamwork between Moxie, you & Sabina.  

Wishing the best, to such an incredible pij.

Cindy


----------



## xxmoxiexx

maybe because he's a she we should call her BeBe or BeeBee King?
anyways, she looks so happy, i'm so glad things are working out with her. she's in good hands. 
i went to the link and saw the other ones too, very good pics of her. BUT i happened across the necro pics of Coco, wasnt prepared for that. poor girl..


----------



## Maggie-NC

BB King is one lucky and gorgeous pigeon. I loved all the pictures.


----------



## Reti

He looks wonderful, you can't even tell he was so badly injured and went through so much.
Great job guys!!!!

Reti


----------



## Charis

She is a very pretty bird. I'm delighted it all turned out so well.
Great job to every one involved.


----------



## Guest

all that drama and mother nature an a little help from mankind saves the day  wish this would have been with out the drama thou it was gut wrenching to read  sorry but its true and look at the results ... a gorgous bird ready to take on the world //they sure are troopers arent they .. love you people for all your help getting him/her there  your the best


----------



## sabina

Hi there,

Sorry for the lack of updates but things have been pretty calm around here as far as BB and Oscar are concerned. BB is doing well, it seems. Flying, preening, eating. She finished her Nystatin and has a follow-up vet appointment tomorrow to recheck the fecal. 

This feather pulling has been pretty traumatic. We've plucked at least 50, and it seems we haven't scraped the surface, there are SO SO MANY MORE trimmed feathers to pull. This is NOT to make you feel badly at all Raina, we know you didn't know, but this poor bird! All the feathers on her lower chest/abdomen and leg have been trimmed. I'm posting about this so people know...if feathers are cut, the new feathers will NOT grow unless those feathers are pulled. And in order for this bird to be released, she needs her feathers back! 

Sabina


----------



## feralpigeon

Sabina and Aias, I hope the follow up lab work goes well. As to the release 
date being set back because of the feathers--on the plus side, I suppose
that you will have a bit longer to observe and evaluate this bird. It's good 
not to get caught up in the excitement of things (i.e.release too soon) and give them that extra time to R&R as once you give them a 'toss' and release them, that's usually it.

Yeah, it's very important to minimize the impact/damage that we have on them either through feather removal or meds or whatever else because we want them to have the best possible shot at their return to feral life in as short a period of time as is possible. A good reminder and sorry you are having to deal w/this.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Well, it was in the thick of the original battle, you know. You're seeing the back end of a pretty rough rehab. Survival had a completely different meaning back then--it simply meant "to live". The bird will eventually grow them all back on its own...

...in about six months!

Pidgey


----------



## sabina

Yah, I should've clarified. Rita said it would take many months for the new feathers to come in if we didn't pull them. But we can already see the little quills from the ones we pulled earlier, so that is good to see!


----------



## feralpigeon

I realized this was what you were doing Sabina. Can you guestimate how many
are left that need to be pulled and is BB currently on any meds? Some aren't 
great for molts thats why I ask. Also, better make sure he's getting the supplements 
he needs for good feather formation and keep an eye out for 
blood feathers especially since he's been sick.

fp


----------



## sabina

i'll have aias look and guess today at some point. what supplements should we be giving? oh and BB isn't on any meds now, but will let you know if any are prescribed today at AG.


----------



## feralpigeon

Well, you'll want to provide regular spraying/bathing, and a higher Protein intake, I use Protein crumbles for pigeons from the supply houses--they call it eggfood--but it's not the same as the Eggfood that you purchase at the pet 
store. I think either one would help, you want to provide ample opportunity
for their diet to provide more/higher protein intake. If you have a vitamin/mineral supplement on hand you 
could use that. I have an oil for their feathers that I put on the seeds called Plume-Plus, 
but without making a shopping chore out of this just making sure the stress of it all doesn't affect
his eating habits and making sure that he's getting the supplements that you
have on hand would be helpful. Here's a general link on molting:

http://www.birdsupplynh.com/vetafarm/TheMoult-AdelicateProcess.pdf



fp


----------



## Skyeking

sabina said:


> i'll have aias look and guess today at some point. what supplements should we be giving? oh and BB isn't on any meds now, but will let you know if any are prescribed today at AG.


Hi sabina,

fp, asked me to answer your post, but I see fp did a great job.

Garlic is extremely important for feather growth and maintenance since it purifies the blood to the feathers. It helps maintain thick feathering and powder. I have a pigeon who was on the caps for 3 months, when he was rehabbing when he was on the mend for a broken leg, and you should see his "coat", it still looks incredible after a couple of years.

Oil containing seeds such as sunflower, hemp, linseed, cabbage seed, given in small amounts will give a nice shiny improved bloom to the new growth. Flax seed is also excellent during the moult, given sparingly of course. 

Greens and overturned sod, and barley also are great support for the birds during any stressful period.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

FP, what is a blood feather, and what happens when you pull them? i know when i cut the feathers, a few, just a couple, had blood a bit where i cut. I didnt know that feathers wouldnt grow after you cut them, or i think i woulda plucked from the get-go, or not gone so crazy, but at the time i thought she might of gotten shot twice, and had another BB in there. luckily that wasnt the case. 
Treesa, or anyone else, what kind of greens do pigeons like? and what greens are good for them? do they not like the ones that are good for them, like kids not eating broccoli?


----------



## feralpigeon

Moxie, here are a couple of links for you on blood feathers:

http://www.quakerville.com/qic/qbfeathe.asp

http://www.mytoos.com/bloodfeather.shtml

Feather shafts fill w/a blood supply to 'feed' or support the developement of 
the new feather. If you cut one, or one breaks, the bird can suffer from blood
loss the same way we worry about blood loss for cuts that are "bleeders". 
It can be life threatening, but not if addressed by pulling out from the base of 
the shaft. 

Romaine lettuce is a green that mine enjoy. and to tell you the
truth, they also like carrots and banannas. Start simple and then test as you 
go, Moxie. Cabbages may not be well liked or tolerated but see what others
have to say.

fp


----------



## flitsnowzoom

blood feathers are feathers that are still growing out. If you cut one, you should go ahead and pull them out as they can continue to bleed (at least that's the recommended procedure for the small birds).


----------



## Charis

They also like minced broccoli tops and sprouts, at least mine do.


----------



## Skyeking

xxmoxiexx said:


> Treesa, or anyone else, what kind of greens do pigeons like? and what greens are good for them? do they not like the ones that are good for them, like kids not eating broccoli?


Curly kale, endive, lettuce,spinach, and carrots. Make sure it is washed well, and only give a little once a week. Brussel sprouts, cauliflower, broccoli, and other members of the cabbage family is not recommended for pigeons,as it is said to be bad for pigeons by some experts, however some people do give their birds a little, and have seen no ill effects.

Curly kale is the best green foods for pigeons as it has most vitamins and minerals.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

ok, thanks. you know, i think the reason i cut was because i needed to get as many feathers away and gone, and as fast as possible. i didnt know about them not growing, but at the time it was an emergency, so time plucking all of those could of been a disaster if she was hurt somewhere else. some people told me to pluck, although didnt say why it was needed in the long run, as nobody was thinking long run in the first couple days/weeks. and i think i was a little scared of plucking, so i asked if i could cut instead and everyone said yes.
i guess it's just another case of something slipping by the radar. i felt stupid, like it was something everyone assumed people just knew already, and i didnt know. oh well, thats how you learn i guess.
i really feel bad for Aias and Sabina, i cut ALOT of feathers!! almost all on both legs, and everywhere on the hips/belly underneath and between both legs! poor BB! everything she's gone through, she is one tough cookie! she's gonna be the best Mom one day, no one will be able to mess with her babies!


----------



## Aias

moxie here are a couple of photos of abuelito and his blood feathers, the first and only we have dealt with: http://flickr.com/photos/100fires/tags/abuelito/

so as you know we took bb queen to Animal General and she has a clean bill of health, almost, there is some coccidia still left to fight, so 5 more days on albon and she is done. 

the feather thing is a problem, there are so many on her belly and chest, i feel bad for her, at least we managed to pull all the ones on the previously hurt leg. also i hadnt noticed this, well i noticed it before but it didnt register, bb is a teenager. you must have found her just after she stopped being a squeaker, her ceres is still soft. i think she is very cute even though she hates me.


----------



## Skyeking

Aias said:


> the feather thing is a problem, there are so many on her belly and chest, i feel bad for her, at least we managed to pull all the ones on the previously hurt leg. also i hadnt noticed this, well i noticed it before but it didnt register, bb is a teenager. you must have found her just after she stopped being a squeaker, her ceres is still soft.* i think she is very cute even though she hates me.*





Hi Aias,

LOL..I feel the same about my little charges, the more they hate me the more I love them. I guess ...cause I figure they have issues we know nothing about from their past in the wild, and that is their only defense mechanism, wing slaps and such. But there certainly isn't any mistaking what kind of human/humans were responsible for her injury.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Aias said:


> also i hadnt noticed this, well i noticed it before but it didnt register, bb is a teenager. i think she is very cute even though she hates me.


Well, of course she hates you, she's a teenager !


----------



## Aias

*oscar and bb sitting on a tree....*

oscar and bb are getting along better and better with each passing day, oscar is not such a bully anymore and they are together most of the day following each other all over the apt.:










and some here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/100fires/tags/bbking/ you can certainly see all the feathers that need to be plucked from her chest, its mostly down, you know the soft stuff not down as a vertical direction. i dont know how much of that plucking we will be able to do, feeling overwhelmed here.  
and she already hates me in her teenager kinda way!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

see, i always wish they would be all cuddly with me, and when i feed the feral cats i wish they would let me pet them, but now i keep them scared of me, as i dont want them to get friendly with people and have the wrong people catch them. you know, about a year ago, a father and his 16 year old son were arrested for capturing stray cats and setting them on fire and watching them die. quite the father/son bonding, huh? 
so, thinking of things like that makes me realize that anything released or in the wild needs to keep that defense mechanisim, because it could be the only thing that keeps them from a horrible death like that one.
the father/son duo, i guess they only got fined. go figure. they printed their names in the paper, and after i found out they only got a fine, i tried to find them in the towm they lived in, but they had moved. so, if you ever read about me in the paper, you know what it was about.
i always figured if i ever got into trouble for hurting someone like the father/son duo, that every animal lover and every animal rights group in the whole country would set up a legal defense fund for me so quick, that i wouldnt have to worry about going to jail. of course, an eye for an eye in that case and i would definitely go to prison, but someone like that at least deserves a baseball bat to the kneecap or something, at least i think so. vigilante justice seems to be the only real justice in cases like that, considering all they get in our so called justice system is a freakin' fine.
allright, i usually go watch cartoons when i get all riled up about stuff like this, adios amigos and senoritas!!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

OH Sabina, Aias!! i'm so sorry about all the feathers!! i feel horrible!
but doesnt Oscar and BB look sooo cute together! you think they are, you know, makin' waves? making sweet love? 
oh, i'm gonna feel so horrible taking her away from her lover! and what if she has babies! Oscars a little ****, huh? Sabina, you must be so jealous of BB, you were Oscar's #1 woman, now BB came and took it all over! 
those pics are so cute!! i'm so glad she's having some fun at least. poor girl. she was getting friendly with another pigeon i had up here, but he/she had a roost he wouldnt let BB on, so she was always getting kicked back to the floor.


----------



## Aias

moxie if you ever need anyone for that kinda of justice i gots your back!

who do you think orchestrated this whole "oscar, i know this hen... and she is kinda cute..." thing? sabina is my mate first!


----------



## sabina

i stopped being oscar's #1 a loooooooong time ago, he doesn't even remember me now. BB and oscar don't really seem lovey-dovey. they do hang out together, but there are no mating dances, no nuzzling or preening of each other. so i think it's platonic for now


----------



## xxmoxiexx

oh, you guys are so cute!! Aias, got a little jealous of Oscar, so you hooked him up with this other chicky, BB!!!  he he he, Sabina, now THAT is true love! Aias doesnt even want the other species tryin' to move in on you! maybe he felt a little neglected, kinda like a dog or cat does when a baby comes into the picture!! well, Aias felt like that dog or cat!! THATS why he was so rushed into getting BB down there, he knew he was a she all along! tryin' to distract Oscar. well, i'll keep it a secret, cause if i told Oscar, he'll know he's been had by you Aias, and might try to revolt and fight and take back his number 1 girl, Sabina! but watch out Aias, cause now i always got something on you, i'll always be holding that card, and could tell Oscar anytime i wanted... he he he he  
Sabina, you're a real special gal, to have all these boys fightin' over you! Bet it feels nice to know your hubby still wants to fight for ya though!!
now Aias is always gonna check the sex on the pijjies he brings home! no more boys in his crib, huh Aias!!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

*BB King (well, queen) is back in Boston!!*

sooo, BB is home in boston, she had so much fun in NYC with Sabina and Aias, and most of all, Oscar! I can tell she misses him! I was pretty sad to split them up, but she wants freedom, and Oscar just wants a cozy pad. BB will be released in a few days, back with her flock. When i got off the bus with her, i had to walk right by where i found her, and when we walked past, she started going totally insane, throwing herself at the cage and looking all around. Poor girl, i think she thought i was letting her go, so she was real unhappy when i brought her home. I put a bowl of seed and water in her cage, and she stomped in her seed and water, and when i checked on her later, the water was gone, tipped over, and the seed was EVERYWHERE except the bowl! she was running around sticking her head in every crack between the cage bars. Pigeon prison is what it was for her! Unjust imprisonment! She wanted her lawyer and a phonecall, and never got it! 
Ok, imaginary time over now! I used to think people who had captions of animals talking in their photos of pets or animals were crazy, and now i'm even worse! 
So, Sabina and Aias did a GREAT job, they deserve a standing ovation for this one, both of them took such good care of BB and got her the best care! They are such great people, i'm so happy that i met them. Sabina is a very pretty gal, so nice and sweet to match, and thats kind of rare that girls are pretty AND have a personality to match! and Aias is a very handsome, compassionate and crafty guy too. Not boring at all, i was just messin' around with that! I was only down there for a night, but am so happy that i got to spend some time there so i could learn more about them. I have finals, so could only stay a night there even though they invited me to stay longer. Some time after school i'll go longer, and that reminds me, i gotta go study and do more homework! Bye all! just thought i'd update on the situation!


----------



## Lovebirds

xxmoxiexx said:


> sooo, BB is home in boston, she had so much fun in NYC with Sabina and Aias, and most of all, Oscar! I can tell she misses him! I was pretty sad to split them up, but she wants freedom, and Oscar just wants a cozy pad. BB will be released in a few days, back with her flock. When i got off the bus with her, i had to walk right by where i found her, and when we walked past, she started going totally insane, throwing herself at the cage and looking all around. Poor girl, i think she thought i was letting her go, so she was real unhappy when i brought her home. I put a bowl of seed and water in her cage, and she stomped in her seed and water, and when i checked on her later, the water was gone, tipped over, and the seed was EVERYWHERE except the bowl! she was running around sticking her head in every crack between the cage bars. Pigeon prison is what it was for her! Unjust imprisonment! She wanted her lawyer and a phonecall, and never got it!
> Ok, imaginary time over now! I used to think people who had captions of animals talking in their photos of pets or animals were crazy, and now i'm even worse!
> So, Sabina and Aias did a GREAT job, they deserve a standing ovation for this one, both of them took such good care of BB and got her the best care! They are such great people, i'm so happy that i met them. Sabina is a very pretty gal, so nice and sweet to match, and thats kind of rare that girls are pretty AND have a personality to match! and Aias is a very handsome, compassionate and crafty guy too. Not boring at all, i was just messin' around with that! I was only down there for a night, but am so happy that i got to spend some time there so i could learn more about them. I have finals, so could only stay a night there even though they invited me to stay longer. Some time after school i'll go longer, and that reminds me, i gotta go study and do more homework! Bye all! just thought i'd update on the situation!


Well, it DOES sound like BB is ready to go back to her home. I know on occasions when we have to pick up one of our birds that couldn't make it home, they seem so pitiful and forelorn on the ride home, but the minute we turn into our drive way, no matter how weak they are, you see a sparkle in their eye and they come to life. They know exactly where they are and are happy to be back. It will be great for her when she's returned to her flock. A big thank you goes to everyone who made this possible. We need a happy ending around here today and now we've got one.


----------



## Reti

Moxxie, thank you for the wonderful update. Please let us know when you release BB, I bet she will be in heaven.
All three of you did a fantastic job, you make a great team.

Good luck on your finals, moxxie.

Reti


----------



## sabina

So y'all think it's ok to let BB go with her feathers still cut? I think it should be ok, she flies around the apartment fine. All her wing feathers are fine, it's just her chest/belly feathers which are affected. 
moxie, thanks for the kind words, that is sweet! We were very happy hanging with you for the day! Hope to see you again soon  
Sabina


----------



## Lovebirds

sabina said:


> So y'all think it's ok to let BB go with her feathers still cut? I think it should be ok, she flies around the apartment fine. All her wing feathers are fine, it's just her chest/belly feathers which are affected.
> moxie, thanks for the kind words, that is sweet! We were very happy hanging with you for the day! Hope to see you again soon
> Sabina


Is her chest/belly bare or what? I don't really think it would make a difference. Not in a wild bird. A race bird would never (or SHOULD never) be sent on a race with feathers missing or cut, but these feral guys don't fly hundreds of miles at a time. I would think she would be just fine.


----------



## Pidgey

It's not likely to get cold up there anymore, is it? That's about the only thing that would matter, I'd think.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC

My only concern would be if other pigeons pecked her because she's kinda nekked.


----------



## Lovebirds

Lady Tarheel said:


> My only concern would be if other pigeons pecked her because she's kinda nekked.


yea, that might happen but she could get away. When I first put Dory in with Punkin, Punkin kept chasing Dory and picking at her feet and toes. Guess he thinks that all feet have feathers. LOL


----------



## sabina

Well it's not going to get cold again. She's not bare exactly, it's just more downy kind of in that area. I mean her leg where we plucked the feathers is kind of bare. But her chest/belly area isn't bare since we didn't pull those feathers. So sounds like it should be ok...


----------



## xxmoxiexx

no, not going to be cold here. If i pulled all the feathers, it would take a long time to do anyways, and i want to let her go now, when it's starting to get warm, so she can get a boyfriend and get used to being outside, and has lots of time before it's cold again. I'm keeping her for a few more days, going to wet her up a few times to get the feathers ready, well, what feathers are there. But Sabina is right, it's only her belly and legs, so she should molt soon enough anyways, right?


----------



## Aias

moxie is a big *big* flatterer!  
i miss bb! and oscar does too. about the feathers i think she will be fine, she flies just fine and all the ones we plucked on her leg are already growing in.

ps. moxie, i never placed better than 5th the whole day!


----------



## xxmoxiexx

*BB is gone!!*

I let her go yesterday. i had her for a week, i wanted to fatten her up before i let her go, and then i had 3 days that were bad for release in a row due to storms and windy days. so i went to her old flock, and there was only like 8 pigeons left, so i walked a few blocks to a different flock, and let her go there. she flew to the top of a building and preened for a bit, then took off. i started to walk home and i walked past the flock with only 8 left where i found BB, and low and behold, i saw her on a buiding ledge with the others. so she went RIGHT back to her flock. i could tell it was her because of the bald spot and black everywhere else. already 2 boys were chasing her anbd she kep[t flying away from them! i tryed to coax her down with the others but they were'nt falling for it with all the people that were out. there is the cutest squeaker in her flock too. 
i'll post some pics later. i'm so so happy!! Thanks EVERYONE for the help in this, and especially Sabina and Aias!!


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## John_D

Hey, that is great that she went back and found her own gang to hang out with!

Well done everyone involved with this little girl, she has had right royal treatment.

John


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## Reti

moxxie, thank you for the update. What a bittersweet moment. 
What you guys went through, it is amazing. I hope you will be able to recognize her when you see her again.

Reti


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## Pidgey

You have to wonder why that flock had dwindled, or whether they were just dispersed to other places. Did you educate the miserable children to not bother the birds?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Moxie, I, for one, will not forget BB King and I am happy she is now soaring with her pals. You, Sabina and Aias did a marvelous job. I know you're happy but sad - I always am when I release ours.


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## Feefo

Thanks for the wonderful update!

Cynthia


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## jazaroo

Moxie, I know getting BB rehabilitated to the point of being able to go home again was not an easy task for all involved, especially you, but you persevered and got the job done. A special thanks as well, to all who made this possible.

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx

*I Saw Bb!!*

so, i saw BB yesterday!! she was scared to come down at first, but she did!! i guess when i released her most of the flock was somewhere else, because there's about 20 or more of them now!! a few squeakers too!
the pics arent the best, hard to get a good pic when every time you click they move so fast. the area is a very busy one, and there was a bunch of kids down there, so a group of them started throwing stuff, rocks and sticks, at the pigeons, one ALMOST hit BB! i went totally rabid when that happened, my head turned around like Linda Blair and i started yelling at them, and this other lady started in on the kids too! it was nice to have someone stick up for the pigeons with me, and once i told her the story of BB she understood how i got so mad. see, her flock has a lot of food, not many hawks, but lots of mean people, so i'm going by there as much as i can to feed them.
Oh, Pidgey, my last post i meant the boy PIGEONS were chasing BB, not the human variety boys. but that happens too. the boy pigeons dont waste a second with a new female, i tell ya!! they ALL wanted to stake their claim on her! she is one good lookin' pigeon, so i dont blame them! i might go as far and say she is one heck of a SEXY pigeon!! 
her feathers are all ruffled, but i think because we just had a storm up here, coupled with newly being free has got her a little frazzled. she's happy though.
THANKS EVERYONE for your nice remarks, you're all so sweet, and thanks everyone for ALL the help!! 
oh, the first pic, you can see a squeaker RIGHT below her, so cute!!


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## Pidgey

Have the police lock the kids up for life. It's better that way.

Good ole' BB!

Pidgey


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## Reti

moxxie, those are lovely pics. It is so wonderful to see BB with her flock, she seems so happy.
Thanks for the great update and the pics.

Reti


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## Skyeking

I'm glad we get to see a pic of BB out among the flock, (post rehab), that is wonderful!

I'm also glad you will be able to keep eyes on the flock and BB and support them with food when needed.

Thank you for sharing the successful conclusion of this bird. It is quite a monumental achievment after all this bird has been thru. If she could talk and tell all her new friends....

Thnks for sharing.


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## flitsnowzoom

Trees Gray said:


> Thank you for sharing the successful conclusion of this bird. It is quite a monumental achievment after all this bird has been thru. If she could talk and tell all her new friends....
> 
> Thnks for sharing.


Guaranteed Miss BB can talk! we just can't understand  

Miss BB is looking great and surrounded by stars -- how appropriate. So nice to see her back among the flock.

PS. That has to be a NY flock -- look how fast they're goin'


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## Maggie-NC

Moxie, those pictures and the update make me really happy.

I loved Treesa's post so much I'll just ditto everything she said.


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## Larry_Cologne

*Great (ongoing) conclusion*

And I'll just ditto Maggie's ditto! 

Larry


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