# Demi's Newest Baby



## demi (May 21, 2008)

Dear P.T. friends,

Dena gave me a baby pigeon this evening!
This time, she is already at least about 3 weeks old, I am guessing.

Mostly black except here and there I see some gray. Her tail feathers are still very short, but she already has very big feet. In fact they look so big that they may be thicker than Fluffy's. So robust and strong, yet I still have to feed her with a syringe. She wouldn't eat from a nipple nor drink from a container.

She was squeaking until I held her in my arms and sat down to relax, after feeding her.

Her beaks are thick and big, too, and very dark. I have never seen a pigeon as dark as this one until now. The chest area has a small patch of shiny purple. 

I will see if I can send in some pictures. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes pictures! We want to see pictures! At three weeks, why is she not with her parents? She should be able to drink if you dip her beak into the water. And at 3 weeks, she is old enough to start eating seed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Demi,



At that age...it'd be far better to guide them into pecking Seeds...than to be trying to tube-feed....better for the young Pigeon, better for you, better for everyone.


Get 'good' seeds, not the grocery store 'Wild Bird' stuff.


Canary or Finch or Dove Seeds...and proper Pigeon-Mix, combine these.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't see as Demi was asking for our advise rather announcing her new rescue.
By now she knows the feeding drill.
So Demi...yes...pictures please.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Congratulations Demi - and yes, can't wait to see pictures  And updates too... the little baby sure sounds adorable!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Didn't mean to give advice. I know she knows what to do. Just enjoy! And post pictures!


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Would you look and*

see the pictures Gogobeans posted on 'Young pigeons ...' on August 16th, I believe. The one on the right with dark feathers and reddish feet, looks exactly like the one I have now.

So, how old do you think she ( he ) is?

Last night she ate the mixture of small amount of exact foumula and Malt-O-Meal, about 7pm. She ate and ate and went to sleep for a long time. 

She is still very scared of us. This was after Dena had her for a few hours.

This morning I wated to see if she knew how to eat seeds, and drink water by herself. She pecks at the seeds leasurely, playing with them but doesn't swallow. At least she knows how to make herself look like she is pecking. She has not drunk water by herself, so I gave her some with a small syringe.

I thought she should be starting to eat seeds about now, too. It just so happened that yesterday morning, I gave my last supply of bird seeds, good ones and not so good ones ( wild bird seeds from Wal-Mart ) to all the neighborhood birds that come to my backyard, and run out of seeds completely. Otherwise, I would have mixed some in with the formula.

She is so powerfull and tries to run away from me when I am getting her ready for food. This morning, she didn't cooperate with me. She wouldn't even put her beak in the opening of the syringe. I am going to have to teach her to eat seeds.
There is a film someome posted on 'Youtube' how to feed breadballs to young ( 21day old ) pigeons. If she doesn't eat formula any more and doesn't seem to get hang of pecking seeds to eat, should I try the breadballs?

I am going to talk to Dena this evening hopefully, to find out a little more about this bird. She said that at the moment she has too many pigeons and was glad that I was willing to take her. I am sure this one was left by someone who found her alone somewhere and brought to the vet's office.

It's been a while since I took care of Peep and Fluffy, so any advice you can give me is greatly appreciated. Good thing that I kept all the containers syringes, etc. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Give her a dish of seed, let her peck at it. She will get the idea. If she is refusing the syringe, and knows to peck, she'll learn to pick up seed. Do Phil's thing with the shot glass of seed. Put her beak in gently, and she will probably start to pick up the seed. You need to go out and buy more seed. A dove mix would work. If it doesn't work right away, keep trying til it does. She'll get it. Do the same thing with the water.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*I have*

given her a dish of seeds, also spread some on where she is sitting, and tried to let her drink water from a dish several times. She has not eaten or drunk water yet.

I got a syringe with longer tip so that just in case she would not eat for another day, I would use it to feed her.

Dena is giving me another baby pigeon which I will be picking up in an hour or so. This new one is much younger, only a few days old. By having this one close, I am hoping the first one will feel more at ease. If things work out, they would feel like sisters ( or brothers ), I am hoping.

Wish me luck, please!! Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I just saw her pecking seeds from the dish I placed in front of her. She has been pooping very healthy amount all day, so I think she is going to be OK. I need to see her drinking water, too, soon!! Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*I have just received*

another baby pigeon from Dena.

This one has been peeping without stopping. I have fed him a huge amount and he is still acting like he is starving. His crop is full now. 

We placed them in the same box. The little one is pecking constantly at the bigger baby all over the face and everywhere else, but she doesn't seem to be bothered very much. She is sitting right next to him being pecked.

( I will call the older one 'she' and the younger one 'he', for convenience, since I don't have names for them yet.)

He was at it for a long time, maybe 30 min. and for a few minutes, they were side by side peacefully spleeping, but now he is starting to peck again. He stoppted momentarily as I don't hear anything right at the moment.

Was this a good idea to put them together, you think? Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NO. How much bigger is the bigger one. If there is a large difference, she may hurt the smaller one. Would you want to be pecked constantly? There's your answer.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Since she has*

not been eaten all day, I fed her with the long tipped syringe at 11:30pm. They were both still up. But now they went to sleep, I hope, for the night.

I have a feeling, after all, that they are going to be great pals to each other. In a few weeks, they probably will be looking pretty much the same size and even before then, he will stop pecking her?

It is so nice to see two of them sleeping side by side quietly. Demi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*I have just received*


demi said:


> * *another* *baby pigeon *from Dena.
> 
> ** *see the pictures Gogobeans posted on 'Young pigeons ...' on August 16th, I believe.* The one on the right with dark feathers and reddish feet, looks exactly like the one I have now.
> 
> ...


Demi,
* In comparison to the _first_ baby you received, could you give us a description of the _new_ baby (e.g., size, feathering, etc.)?

** For those who may not have found the picture, here's the link to it.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=311177&postcount=3

Cindy


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

this thread is too long, Im too lazy to read all that.....new thread for new baby!...whine....lol...........hey new thread! it's like magic.....nice new baby! so cute...


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Just curious Demi - are you sure the little one was "pecking" the bigger one? Or was it preening?


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Would you mind*

transferring my messeage #160 on page 11 as the beginning of my new thread? I would appreciate it very much. Thank you.

The smaller one is about 1 week old, and the other about 2 weeks old, I think.
When I said he was pecking and pecking, I meant that the smaller one was pecking the bigger one. 

Sometimes it seems like the smaller one is helping to preen the bigger one. Now that I have found my method of feeding them, using the long-tipped syringe and do it so quickly like in 2 min. each without moving from their spots, I don't have to handle them too much but leave them alone to themselves. Most of the time, they are very quiet now, preening themselves or sleeping. Bigger one is starting to peck to eat more.

I think that when the little one is peeping and trying to peck the bigger one, he is looking for his parent(s).

They are eating well, and pooping well. I will send in pictures as soon as I can. ( The smaller one looks about the same size as the baby dove picture that was informative in letting me know how they look like at the beginning of the thread.) Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*I can not be sure,*

but, when they are close together the little one, I think, is a little scared of the bigger one, and starts pecking her.

I have separated a medium size animal taxi into ( top and bottom ) two compartment, put them side by side, making them face their opening toward each other. One has two small oven racks on top of newspaper, a cotton T-shirt for bedding in the corner ( the little one has a tendency to spread his legs, and I didn't want him to develop a splayed leg ), and the other, a thicker towel on the bottom with seeds and water trays. I put the door which came with the taxi, in the middle to separate those two babies, but they can see and hear each other. The smaller one seems to be less stressed and much calmer, and sleeps most of the time.

When I didn't have the barrier in between, the bigger baby would climb on top of the smaller one in the corner to get out. Her claws could injure the smaller one, so I needed to prevent it.

What I thought 'pecking' could have been 'preening', but when the bigger one would come near, the smaller one would look nervous, get up from the sitting position and starts to peck the other. Now he is very peaceful.

The bigger baby drank water from a small cup today. Both of them are a little more used to seeing me around, and not as scared. I try to talk to them using very soft voice when I am around. They are in the kitchen, and about 3 1/2 feet of the floor. 

The bigger baby has lost almost all the yellow fuzz; I can see one here and one there still remaining.
The smaller one still is covered with yellow fuzz, and missing featheres under the wings and chest area. Demi


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I think that the smaller baby was simply asking to be fed.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

You may be right...

Thank you for letting me start the new thread.

Our little puppy ( Slippers ) was soooo jealous of my taking care of the birds at first, but she is starting to get used to my giving attention to others now. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*As our two babies*

Are getting used to each other, and I see them wanting to be with each other, I have removed the barrier.

Right now they are sleeping partially on top of each other like two brothers.
( I will keep my eye on them to be sure they won't hurt each other. )


When will it be a good time to put a band around their ankle? This is way too early, isn't it? Wouldn't their feet still keep on growing?

I would like to mark them so that if and when they come back ( that is if I am successful at releasing them ), I can spot them easily. Someone suggested to put some paint on the back of their feathers. Is this a good idea? Demi


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

demi said:


> Are getting used to each other, and I see them wanting to be with each other, I have removed the barrier.
> 
> Right now they are sleeping partially on top of each other like two brothers.
> ( I will keep my eye on them to be sure they won't hurt each other. )
> ...


If you want to put a permenant band on thier leg, that has to be done around 6 days old, maybe 7. After that, their feet are two big. You can put a snap band on their leg any time.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Thanks, Renee,*

I didn't know that there were different kinds of band to put on them.

I see them preening each other, but maybe becasue they are so clumsy at it they come so close to poking each other's eyes.

The little one started pecking at seeds after watching his big brother ( sister ) do it. It is fun to watch them growing up together. Demi


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Demi, congratulations on your two new babies. I'm with Pigeonpoo in that I think the baby just wants the larger one to feed it. Personally, I see nothing wrong with letting them be together UNLESS the younger one still has no feathers. If so, I would wait about a week. They would still be buddies at their age. I really love to have two at the time because it makes them happy to have a pal.

I know many members say to cut off the hand feeding but I have found that they do better if they're still hand fed at least once a day (night) while they're learning how to eat seed. If you have any gram scales, it is also helpful to weigh them about every 2-3 days just to make sure they are not losing weight.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*Dear PT friends,*

I took my older pigeon to the aviary and found out that she could fly, not from the ground up but down from about 2 feet up, and the distance of about 3 feet.

When I saw somebody's 'Youtube - feeding a young pigeon', the pigeon there already looked like an adult pigeon with all the colors, and becasue it said the pigeons were 21 days old, I thought mine couldn't be that old.

I think I was wrong. I went back and looked at Cindy's diary of those two lovely white pigeons, and compared mine.

My older one has to be around 1 month old, and the smaller one looks like he is 21 days old.

I am very happy to report to you that they are getting along wonderfully, and seem to be very healthy, eating and pooping well.

I am still hand-feeding the smaller one 3 times a day, and the older one once at night. But now that I think they are older than I first thought them to be, I may change the schedule. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*A message from someone*

who needs your help.
------------------------------------------------------------ 

n 13th November 2008 12:55 PMarif_bigevil 
I have allergy problem.doctor advised me to avoid dog,parrot,pigeon,etc. but i can't live without my Pigeons. so plz tell me any premeditation for it. any medicine for pigeon which are anty allegetic.


another problem... i want to upload this matter to the forum but i can't. if u upload this matter to the forum, i am very thank full to u....

take care....bbyeeeeeeds your help.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*A message from someone*

So sorry I was having difficulty posting this person's message and repeated the same one. Demi


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

demi said:


> who needs your help.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> n 13th November 2008 12:55 PMarif_bigevil
> ...


Don't worry about it. This person has been told by Terry to stop sending messages to all the members and either post on the forum or contact a Moderator. He/She has sent numerous messages to numerous members. Terry's post is somewhere, but I forget where exactly
I'll say it again...........can't understand how someone can figure out how to send messages to a bunch of different members, but can't figure out how to post on the forums.......


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Hi, bird lovers!!

My babies are getting bigger every day!!
Our pet store in this town didn't have the bird bands, so I went to the animal feed store and bought a couple. I am a little afraid that there may be a possiblity of their getting hurt from this plastic bands. Couldn't it be pushed against the leg or the foot in an unexpected way, for instance with a tree branch or something that got in the way of their landing? Would it be all right if I used a strip of vet wrap and cover the inner side where it would have contact with the skin, leaving ample space so that it would not be tight against the leg? Or do you think it is too unsanitary, because, even when it gets soiled, it will never get washed?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Demi,
You don't have to put bands on them. I have a one legged roller because his band got caught and as he struggled to get free, he severed his leg. When I found him, his leg was hanging by a thread of skin.
If you do put the bands on, it wouldn't be a good idea to use vet wrap.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why do you want to band them?


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I wasn't thinking deeply enough when I asked about the band, I realize now.

I just thought it would be interesting to see that they do come back to our yard to graze and how often if they do. I have seen a mourning dove who has a white band on her leg that might belong to one of my friends, although I haven't asked her yet.

I have, since, decided that it would only be for my curiosity that would be satisfied and nothing else would be accomplished by banding them. I do think I can tell them apart if they do come back and I could take a close look at them.

They are both flying more now. I may call them 'Peat' and 'Repeat', since they are acting like real brothers. I plan to release them in my backyard on the 20th of December. By then, Repeat would be flying expertly, too, I think. They are still very shy and try to stay away from us most of the time, although they are becoming more adventurous, walking or flying farther away from their sleeping quarters more often. 

I have stopped hand-feeding Peat. Repeat still is fed by me twice a day. He looks as if he weighs just as much as his adopted brother. Now I can clearly see that they are preening each other which is a wonderful sight. I am so glad that I have two of them this time. I hardly had to teach Repeat anything. Peat did everything instead of me, just being himself. They snuggle up to each other and sleep, sometimes resting their heads on each other's shoulders. They do still squeak like babies, though, yet even that sounds so cute to me.

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, everyone!!! Demi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Demi,

I banded a few pigeons that I released back into their flock, they were white ones and I wouldn't have been able to tell them apart from the flock. I thought that having them banded would be reassuring but it wasn't, there was a couple that I never saw again after release and the others slowly disappeared from the flock over a few weeks. I would prefer to think that they are safe and in the flock rather than wonder what happened to them.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi Demi, 
It sounds like the Pigeons are doing very well. 
I know you have a planned date for which you are going to release them. I hope that you will pay attention to their development and reconsider that date if they aren't ready.
How do you plan to release them?
Is it possible for them to come and go from your garage?
How will they know where to find food and water?
Is it cold at night in Kingston?
Just SOME of the things to think about and I'm sure other member will add to the list of release considerations. I know you haven't done an intentional release before.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thanks for your comment and advice.

I am going to release them in my back yard where lots of pigeons among other birds come to graze many times a day. Those pigeons are huge compared to my babies.

I am constructing a sort of bird ( pigeon) house (nest ), inside the aviary which I decided to keep open at the top, though there are two aluminum ladders that are placed diagonally and a few rods that are attached on top as well. Pigeons NEVER come and land on those things on top of my aviary - actually a big dog kennel, but all the other birds, doves, thrushers, sparrows, finches, etc, all come to perch on them and also come inside the aviary to drink and eat. 
So, this bird house ( more like their hiding place ) is going to be placed just below the top where they will be protected from wind and rain, and still can see other pigeons on top of our roof and next door neighbor's roof. They will be able to come and go as they please, after getting used to this little nest for a while, hopefully.

I, first considered buying some blocks to use for this, but ended up putting together layers of different things that were available around the house ( somethings that were made long ago from wood, and things ) to provide protection from the weather.

Peat may be ready in a week for release, but I would like to wait for Repeat to be released at the same time. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Demi. Did you know that pigeons must bath in order to build up the powder in their feathers in order to become water repellent? You haven't mentioned bathing them. I don't know if they have had baths as yet, but you should be doing this with them for a while before release. If they get caught in a rain storm, they will get soaked through to their skin. They won't shed the water. They won't be prepared for the changing weather. Maybe you could set up a bath inside for them to use for this purpose. Don't know if you have thought about this. Just wanted to mention it.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

No. I didn't know that at all. Thanks for telling me.
I saw some birds bathing in the big dish of water in the aviary, but I have never seen any other bird do so. 
The weather is very nice here in Kingman( not Kingston ), Arizona, during the day that bathing will be no problem. I will take them outside where it's really warm in the sun and make the bath water available there. Thanks again!! Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Demi, pigeons love water. They love bathing. Wait till you see the fun they have. If they don't seem to know what the water is for, put your hand in and splash around a little. If they still don't get the idea, gently place them in a bath with a couple of inches of water in it. Once they get the idea they'll bathe without being coaxed. You'll enjoy watching them.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> *Demi,* *pigeons love water. They love bathing.* Wait till you see the fun they have. If they don't seem to know what the water is for, put your hand in and splash around a little. If they still don't get the idea, gently place them in a bath with a couple of inches of water in it. Once they get the idea they'll bathe without being coaxed. *You'll enjoy watching them*.


Be sure to have your camera ready. 

Cindy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Be sure to have your camera ready.
> 
> Cindy


Oh yes.......Pictures! We would love it if you would share it with us.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

demi said:


> No. I didn't know that at all. Thanks for telling me.
> I saw some birds bathing in the big dish of water in the aviary, but I have never seen any other bird do so.
> The weather is very nice here in Kingman( not Kingston ), Arizona, during the day that bathing will be no problem. I will take them outside where it's really warm in the sun and make the bath water available there. Thanks again!! Demi


OOPS...I knew it started with a ..."K".


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Hi everyone,

As soon as I said that the weather was nice and warm, it turned cloudy. I have to wait for a day or two to take them out to bathe. But bathe they will do a lot before I am ready to release them.
I am also thinking of a way to let them make use of the warmth of the garage when it's really cold, if they wish to. I could keep the window open a little without the screen and teach them to come inside somehow. I still have to do a lot of thinking to make this happen.....
I thought they were still afraid of humans, but this evening, for the first time, they both came walking up my arm, perched there and preened themselves for quite a while.
Whenever I do something around them, such as clean their poop away, give them fresh water, or use the washing machine to do the laundry, I talk to them saying, 'This is mommy, you don't have to be afraid of me', and whistle in my own special way. It is working and they no longer are afraid of me.
I have a feeling that Peat is a female. She has black feet but overall, her body looks smaller than her younger brother's. Repeat, I think, is a boy, who has pink feet but he already looks bigger than his sister, yet, he is a lot more scared of noise than his sister, and hurriedly goes and hide whenever he hears a noise. I will surely miss them when I have to let them go. 
And yes, I will try to take some pictures. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Just wanted to let you know...

I prepared a basin of luke warm water this morning and invited the older one to get in, by splashing around with my hand. To my surprise, she jumped in without too much hesitation.
I thought she would start splashing right away, but she just sat in it for a long time and even closed her eyes a few times, doing nothing. After that she preened here and there momentarily, and sat back down. She was in the water for about 5 minutes, stood up finally, dropped some poop in it and got out. She then went inside her house ( this is a medium size animal taxi without the door, newspapers on the bottom with oven racks on them, and a small fluffy material they like to sleep on in the corner ) and stood on her bed with her eyes half closed, without moving.

I said to myself, 'Is this how a happy bird supposed to act?' She didn't even shake her wings to get rid of the water. ( It's raining outside today, by the way.) I just wanted to see her reaction to the tub of water. After about an hour of just standing and doing nothing ( she was probably sleeping standing up ) she finally started to preen herself. Soon after that, she was back to her normal self, eating, pooping, playing with her brother, etc.

This was so different from what I expected, so I just wanted to let you know. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She'll get used to the bath. Eventually she'll be splashing in it. She's just not used to it. When I got four new birds this fall, the black fan tail jumped in, and just sunk down into the water and stayed there for maybe 10 minutes. Didn't do anything. Just sat there enjoying the feel of the water. I don't think, they had ever been offered water before. The other 3 I acquired with him didn't really know what to make of it at first either. She'll learn.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I was wondering if I could put a heating pad ( covered with waterproof material ) and put it under the basin of water - like a heated pool - to keep it a little warm, so that they could always get in it. Of course I would change the water often.

This rainy weather we are having which is unusual for us, is supposed to last until the end of the week. 

Is it too much to do for the soon-to-be wild birds? Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Our babies climbed up to the top of water heater this evening and didn't come down for many hours. I wondered if it is their instinct to go as high as they can get to, or is it the warmth they were attracted to, although at the time it wasn't heating water and the cover felt very cold. We finally helped them down, and they started eating.

I had to cover the top of the water heater so that they can't climb there again. ( My husband was afraid that their poop would react with its metal cover.)
They are venturing farther up now. 
I am planning on letting them graze with other pigeons as soon as the weather gets a little better. I will be under the cover and watching them closely. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I thought this was just the perfect timing for their observing other pigeons, but I was wrong, I think.

They were too scared and nervous, they didn't even look at anything but wanting to come to me, climbing up inside of the cage. When I opened the bird cage, they came out but instead of finding seeds on the ground to eat, they immediately ran to me and stayed with me by my feet. So, I gave up finally and came in.

I think they still need to improve on flying a lot more inside the garage, before I should attempt to take them out. They are getting better at floating like a hummingbird a few moments before they fly to another perch. 

One thing I noticed for a few days now, is that the older one, goes to sleep standing up right next to the yonger one, sort of like keeping watch. They ALWAYS stay together. I wonder if they would do that, if they were real siblings........ Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't take them out of the cage when they are outside. They can observe the others from inside the safety of the cage. They are not yet ready, or flying all that well. But if you take them outside, and let them out of the cage, they may just take off on you where you cannot retrieve them. Then they would be on their own, but not ready to be. They cannot fend for themselves. I wouldn't take a chance on them releasing before they are ready.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't take them out of the cage when they are outside. They can observe the others from inside the safety of the cage. They are not yet ready, or flying all that well. But if you take them outside, and let them out of the cage, they may just take off on you where you cannot retrieve them. Then they would be on their own, but not ready to be. They cannot fend for themselves. I wouldn't take a chance on them releasing before they are ready.


I agree with you Jay.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Thank you,

I will give them more time to be comfortable with everything.

They used to be in the back half of the garage, but now they are all over the place. I find their poop everywhere. They started perching on my head also. The younger one is still very scared of noise and hurries to hide as soon as he hears any noise.

Yesterday, by the way, I saw a dove with a deformed beak. The tip ( about half an inch) of the top beak was bent at an angle of almost 90 degrees to the left. He carried on preening, acting normally just as any other doves, leaving me wondering how in the world can he eat with those beaks. I guess he was born this way and has his own way of picking up food and water. At first I thought he had something in his mouth, but it was very clear the way his beaks were when he came back again today. Has anyone seen a bird with deformed beaks like this dove? There must be a large number of animals who are born with problem(s) and learn to cope with it. It was simply amazing, and I just wanted to tell you about it. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's upsetting when you see these things and can't do anything to help them. And thank goodness, many of these things they do learn to work around. Sometimes not. Sad.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*A couple days ago,*

the babies spent the evening in the aviary.
They were mostly on the ground pecking, but started to fly here and there.

They perched on the top edge and flew to my roof where 2 other adult pigeons were, but came back, after I called. Soon after, the youngest flew to the open field across from the back alley where 3 adult pigeons were grazing. He spent a few moments with them but came back to us.

When it started to get dark, they settled in the cozy nests inside the aviary and stayed there until I brought them back to the garage thinking that it was too cold. It probably didn't bother them at all, but their feet felt cold to the touch and I wasn't sure if they were supposed to be that way.

Anyway, they spent half the night ( I brought them back in the middle of the night ) in the garage.

(Yesterday, I was too busy to take them to the aviary.)

This morning, I made another spot for them that is next to the kitchen window against the backside of the house where they would not feel the wind much, even if it becomes windy. They can see the aviary and the back yard in front of them. The weather was absolutely perfect, very warm in the sun with no wind.

I sat in the aviary and watched them. The older one stayed put, but the younger one moved around looking restless. From where I was, I could see them, my roof, and the neighbors' roofs. I thought they would fly to the aviary. On the next neibor's roof, as usual, there were at least a dozen pigeons, if not 20, standing, not moving. (I think they saw me and waiting for me to leave so that they could come down to graze in my yard where I spread the seeds earlier.)

After about 20 minues, all of a sudden, as if they gave signals to each other, even without being able to see the pigeons on the neibor's rooftop, my babies flew out of the little nest, made a half circle and flew directly to the nextdoor-neighbor's roof and joined the adult ones. I could see them apart because they look a little smaller than the rest.

Soon, after I went inside and looked out of the kitchen window, they all came down to graze in my yard. There were all the pigeons, many doves, and sparrows, numbering close to a hundred. I saw the two eating but sometimes, just standing, looking around like, 'I am really not hungry right now, but should I keep on eating?' Then they all left, some went to perch on the lines, some onto the trees in other's yard, and some back on the rooftop. 
For some reason, doves and smaller birds never perch on the next door neighbor's roof as if they reserve it for the pigeons.

I expected that they might decide to join others when I took them out this morning. They proved to me that they could fly well enough the other day. I had a very hard time putting them in a box this morning not because I could not catch them, but because after they were in my hands, they struggled so hard to escape from my hand before I could put them in a box to carry them outside. They seemed to prefer eating off the floor of the garage than from the container of food, also. I decided it was time to give them the freedom. I did make their bath water available, and the older one took a bath one more time like she was enjoying the water. The younger one did not come near.
(I will make a bird bath available every day in the middle of the yard so that the sun will warm up the water).

I may see them back with the same group of pigeons tomorrow morning in my back yard. I have until 8:30 am to observe them. (I have to go to work, unfortunately.) It would be very interesting to see if they do.

I have learned a lot from the experience this time. There are number of things I would do differently if there were more opportunities to take in baby birds. It surely was so much better in every way, to have two of them together. I was so lucky that they were close in age, in a perfect way, so that the older one could teach and protect the younger one. He acted like a parent and a sibling at the same time. I don't know if it was supposed to be that way, but it certainly helped me a great deal lessening my responsibility and at the same time, giving me the pleasure of watching their bonding with each other who became, it seemed to me, inseparable. And yet, they also gave me the warm feeling of being a foster mother for a while.

I will let you know if they come back to graze in my yard again. And I would like to thank everyone of you for helping me through this wonderful adventure. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I am so happy to report to you, all, that my babies came back with others to graze in my back yard.

Their coloring is different enough from others that I am very sure of this. They spent the night somewhere with others safely. Our weather is so mild that it doesn't get too much lower than 40 degrees (F). And yes, they are still together, eating not far from each other. 

Taking care of those two was truly a wonderful experience. I am so glad that they were very healthy to start with. Still, I am extremely grateful to you all. Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

This evening, I noticed a pigeon sitting alone on the line at the end of my back yard. She stayed there for a very long time. She looked like one of my babies. Well, it was she. She came down to the aviary after I went to talk to her. She then circled around to the front yard, back to the aviary, and kept on going around onto the top of our parked car next to the garage window. I removed the screen, opened it and invited her inside. She came into the garage, and seemed to look for the familiar sleeping place which I had already dismantled earlier in the day. She was busy eating and as soon as I brought some water, she put her beaks in it and kept them there for a very long time. She seemed so tired and sleepy from all the new experience and adventures of the past couple of days, stood on one leg, and was dozing.

I left her there for a while after I put together her make-shift bed room. When I went into the garage a little later, she hopped onto my shoulder and kept squeaking. Was she telling me that she was glad to see me? Or, was she asking me where her brother was?
She wanted to stay on my shoulder and probably go to sleep there, but I couldn't keep her there....

I wonder if I should make a ledge somehow onto the windowsills on both sides so that she can come in and out of the garage. Is it a good idea for her to have an access to it? When I heard the rain started to fall, I was glad that she didn't have to be outside to get wet. 

I thought I had already come to the conclusion of 'a tale of two pigeons'.... Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Demi. I would have left their little roost up for a while, with access to it, food and water. It will take them time to adjust to the outside. They don't know where to find food and water. And may not have a safe place to roost at night. Don't know if they have somewhere warm and dry to sleep. I wouldn't shut them out, until they just stopped coming back. Anything could happen to them. They also don't know about the danger from hawks. I would have kept everything there for them, until THEY decided that they no longer needed it. I mean, that certainly would have been a possibility, where you did release them in your yard. Not like some distant park or something.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think the squeaking meant she was hungry. That's a huge transition in a short amount of time and she must be very frightened.
I released 2 young birds from here this past summer. One did just fine but the female was frightened and came back every evening at dusk, tired and hungry. I tried releasing her several more time and each time she returned and was actually scratching at the door. It was obvious she wasn't ready and so I I finally gave up, figuring she knows where she wants to be. Maybe we will try again come spring.
Young pigeons are very vulnerable to predators until they have fully integrated into the flock and most have the help of their dads to show them where to eat and where the flock roosts. Even then...


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

The baby stayed with us in the garage for a couple of days. And this afternoon, she was flying frantically inside the garage so, I wanted her to have fresh air, and took her out to the back yard perched on my shoulder. She stayed on my shoulder for about 10 min. and flew to the neighbor's rooftop where other pigeons were.
And, yes, although I did dismantle their sleeping place in the garage, I have moved some things ( my home made pigeon boxes) to the back yard, and into the aviary ( I think I would call it 'bird sanctuary' from now on.) in clear view from the neighbor's roof.

The screen on the garage window is still off, and I keep the window open whenever possible.
She didn't show up this evening, but with her brother, I expect, she would return tomorrow morning to eat. I have placed water dishes in many places also, although I don't see them drinking from it even when one is right by where they eat.

I do see the younger one come back with the small flock every morning.

It surely seems, to me, a hard life, looking for food to survive every day. I have been placing more food just to be sure that they get enough. I am now feeding a large number of birds every morning because of this, but.............. 

Thank you for telling me the story of releasing yours. Next time, if the weather cooperates, I would like to get them used to being in the bird sancturay for a long time so that they would feel at home being there, before releasing.

It is possible that they do have somewhere they go to sleep that is a little warmer than my garage, like some rooftop of a commercial building, not that my garage is very cold.

The baby that came back was standing on her one leg, and switched to another, almost the whole time she was here. At first, I thought there was something wrong with one leg, but by this afternoon, she was standing on both legs looking energetic and ready to go. Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

demi said:


> The baby stayed with us in the garage for a couple of days. And this afternoon, she was flying frantically inside the garage so, I wanted her to have fresh air, and took her out to the back yard perched on my shoulder. She stayed on my shoulder for about 10 min. and flew to the neighbor's rooftop where other pigeons were.
> And, yes, although I did dismantle their sleeping place in the garage, I have moved some things ( my home made pigeon boxes) to the back yard, and into the aviary ( I think I would call it 'bird sanctuary' from now on.) in clear view from the neighbor's roof.
> 
> The screen on the garage window is still off, and I keep the window open whenever possible.
> ...


Hi Demi. I only said that about the garage, because that was the place they were used to. You can't just set up something somewhere else, and assume that they will go there. They will return to the place where they spent the most time. That, to them, is home. Not an aviary where they spent a few days. That's all I was saying. I just would have given them the option of leaving when they were entirely ready. But still had the security of HOME, until they didn't need to come back to it. Good luck.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Demi...releasing young Pigeon is kind of like sending a human child off to school for the first time. It very scary and stressful for them and they need the security and comfort of being able to come home to find every thing safe and familiar. We wouldn't send a 6 year old off to high school. That's the point we're trying to make. You have the situation where birds can be released from your yard and if you think of them as kindergärtners going off to school for the first time, maybe that will help you figure out the best way to release young Pigeons.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I should have studied a lot more about releasing pigeons to the wild, before I did.

Fortunately, because I have been putting out bird seeds for some time now, every day, I do see a lot of doves, sparrows, pigeons, and other small birds come to eat them.

And, I do see my two babies with a small flock. The one that returned for a few days, had half of one tail feather missing, although she didn't have any trouble flying, so, it is easy to recognize her. There are a few more young pigeons about their age in the same flock which is nice to see.

It is interesting to see the mourning doves who don't take off when others all do, keep eating and slowly look around to see what's happening. It is relatively safe around my house. Hawks are rearly seen, maybe just a few times a year.

I may have to ease up on the amount of seeds I put out lest the neighbors would start complaining...... Demi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Only put out as much as they will eat in one day...no extra.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Demi. Maybe if you are going to cut back on the seed, you could leave some in the garage, in the same place they were used to getting it, and in the same dishes. That way, if they are not getting enough seed, which they probably aren't anyway, as they now have to compete with larger and older birds, they would still be able to find enough food. Just an idea.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Yes, I still do have a set up of seed dish and water in the garage, and a place for them to sleep, just in case.

I do see them fly away with others with even the slightest of disturbance when they come to graze in the morning, and a few more times throughout the day. ( 'Oh, why don't you just stay put and eat to your heart's content, for heaven's sake' I am saying to myself...) But, they are, I see that, fast becoming one of them. Though, this morning, I saw both of them together, drinking from a dish of water without hesitation, whereas other adult ones took a long time to even come near the dish.

I am slowly moving the seeds that I put out, into the B.S. This morning, some of them, including the pigeons, were going inside to eat. I put so much junk on top ( two haves of aluminum ladders, poles, sticks, umbrellas, etc.) that they may have to do some maneuvering to fly out of it, although it is not covered. Doves and others always flew in to eat, but pigeons never came inside, until I opened the gate this morning, scattering seeds in and out near the gate. I would like them to feel that this is one place they can come when they are hungry or thirsty, any time of day.

One thing I see that I would rather not, is that there are some, in all of the different kinds of birds that come to my yard, that monopolize the food dish, it seems. One black bird hogged the water dish and wouldn't let anyone come near. And so, now I have, in addition to scattering seeds on the ground, several (food dishes and) water dishes, to make sure everyone gets some.

It was a very nice, warm day today. It does get cold at night, though. I wonder where they all go to sleep.......... Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

demi said:


> I do see them fly away with others with even the slightest of disturbance when they come to graze in the morning, and a few more times throughout the day. ( 'Oh, why don't you just stay put and eat to your heart's content, for heaven's sake' I am saying to myself...) But, they are, I see that, fast becoming one of them. Though, this morning, I saw both of them together, drinking from a dish of water without hesitation, whereas other adult ones took a long time to even come near the dish.
> 
> Demi


Demi, it's actually good that they are doing this, as it means that they are learning to read the signs of the other pigeons. There is safety in numbers. More eyes to watch for danger. When they are startled and take off, you want them to do this. If there was a hawk, and they just sat there eating while the others took off, they would soon be on the menu. If you are going to release them into the ferral flock, then you want them to learn to be ferral. They cannot be tame and survive. The more they blend into the flock, the better.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

Yes. I realize that. You are so right...

Today, it has been sooooooo windy. I felt punished somehow when I thought of the poor little pigeons having to cope with this extreme weather. Yes we have had very, very windy days ( Kingman is known for being 'very windy' place!), but it was probably near the record breaking in fierceness today. I had a hard time walking even just to the back yard. A friend of mine told me that the older ones would know where to go to stay away from the wind, but I did see them on the next door neighbor's roof huddled together- like, just standing there being immobile, trying not to let the wind blow them away. I thought that they might not be able to go to places to get enough to eat or drink until the wind subsided. It started blowing early in the morning, and hasn't quit yet, though slightly quiets down from time to time. This surely seems like a test of survial....... but this isn't even the coldest day of winter, yet..... Demi


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

We have a snow strorm warning today.

I wished there were things I could do to give them some warmth......the pigeons, that is.

By the way, I saw a black bird ( his body not even as big as a ringneck dove, but has a very long skinny black legs )with an injured foot. He was not putting weight on that leg at all and hopping on the other. His mate ( a somewhat smaller one ) was nearby, and both of them spent quite a long time in my bird sanctuary. He flew away after a while but, again, I wished there were something I could do to help him...... I guess I have to let the nature take its course. I wouldn't have been able to catch him, anyway, unless he couldn't fly.

I used to ( not outloud, of course ) laugh at people whose hobby was bird-watching. It seemed such a passive thing to do to spend time. But, I am fast becoming one of them, now. It never makes me bored watching all those birds, and they are just the ordinary kinds, too.... I have a feeling that someone in my family is going to get me a binocular for Christmas! Have a great one, everybody!! Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This really isn't the best time of year to release young birds. Hard enough adjusting, without snow. I have 2 pairs of binoculars. It's a lot more fun watching the birds when you can bring them in close. Do you have bird feeders in your yard? Too bad about the bird with the bad leg. I feel so helpless when I see something like that, that I know I have no way of catching.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I made bird feeders out of cylindrical (plastic) containers so that except the opening, they are protected from the weather on all sides, and they can be attached to something also. Many of the birds are getting used to eating from them now. Others still readily go to the flat dishes to eat if I don't spread seeds on the ground. When I know that it is going to be bad weather, I use the containers. Is it better if I used the contatiners all the time? There are some bullies that push others away when eating, and I thought it's not a bad idea for them to get used to eating in a different environment ( from humans ), and it seemed that I could distribute the seeds better, I used dishes and containers both at various times. Still, they naturally look for food on the ground first. My babies, yesterday, came one by one, almost running to eat from the containers without hesitation, probably because they were so used to eating from it, which other adult pigeons followed eventually.

The injured black bird ( could be a thrasher ) still has a drooping right foot. Sometimes he comes alone, sometimes he is accompanied by another bird. I will keep on watching.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

While the weather is terrible use whatever container they are most accustomed to. This isn't a time to make changes. Feed extrta because they need it right now.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I am feeding extra amount. 

Would that, though, increase the size and/or number of flocks that come to my yard?

I hate to disappoint them when I go back to the smaller amount. Should I keep it up until spring time?

It seems that sparrows and doves, in great numbers, come almost all day long.

I did see the ringneck dove with the bent ( upper ) beak today, again. He was all alone but looked well if his feathers were somewhat ruffled, and the injured black bird with two other black birds. His leg looked completely useless, just dangling from half way down his leg, but otherwise was eating well.

I noticed that while other birds have someone who pushes others away, pigeons, maybe because they are so much bigger than other kinds, don't do that to each other. At least the ones that come to my yard, which is nice.

It has been very cold here in Kingman, too, and although we didn't get snow, people who live in higher elevation got some yesterday. I can see the mountaintop covered with snow. It surely is not a very good season to release baby birds, I can see it now. It was getting hard to contain them in the garage, though. My husband parks his car in the garage every evening ( after he leaves it outside for a while to let the fumes go ), and I had to make sure the birds didn't fly away. And, toward the end, they were all over the place, and needed to be rounded up and kept to the back part. 

What do you do to keep your pigeon coupe warm in a freezing weather, if you had some babies you were hand-raising? Would you let them use heating pads, there?


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

I have found out that pigeons here in Kingman can cope with the coldest weather we have. We have been hit, along with everybody else in all the U.S., with the snow storm this past week, and had about 4 to 5 inches of snow. The next day was even colder and the remaining snow froze, with the wind blowing, too. Yet, my two babies keep coming to graze in my yard with their flock, making me very happy.

The dove with the bent upper beak and the small black bird with damaged leg ( could be that he was born with this ) also keep showing up every day.

They make my day, and you all know exactly how I feel, which is so nice!!! Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

demi said:


> I hate to disappoint them when I go back to the smaller amount. Should I keep it up until spring time?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you do to keep your pigeon coupe warm in a freezing weather, if you had some babies you were hand-raising? Would you let them use heating pads, there?




It's just that they need more food to keep them warm during the colder months. They burn more energy trying to keep warm.


Some people don't heat at all. Some use small heaters, or even heatlamps and things like that. 

Demi, if I were hand-raising, the babies wouldn't be out in the loft. They would be inside the house until they were older.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

This winter has been the worst in as many years as I can remember. I wished I knew about the snow storm. It is too late now, but in the future, I WILL not release any in the cold months of winter. At least it would cut down on the worry that I have to go through. All the birds, though, are flying in the rain and wind like nothing bothers them.
( We usually don't see snow around here, if we do see some, it would melt away by the next day. ) It has been getting pretty cold ( to me ) in the 20s at night. It won't get much colder here. I thought low 40s was cold enough. I was wrong.
One new discovery; I have been seeing a couple of Inca doves every day. They are very small compared to other doves and have scaly-looking feathers. My sons gave me a bird watcher's book for Christmas. Now I can find out what they are!
Happy and healthy New Year to all of you and yours!! Demi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Happy New Year to you too Demi. I hope you have a great year. Enjoy your new book. It'll be fun identifying all the different birds.


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