# What factors are involved here?



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Attached are pictures of a pair of my rollers and the young from their last round. Would someone mind explaining what's going on here?

Thanks,

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Picture of the nest mate.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

My guess is 

Both parents carry bar if they can produce a bar squab (unless one parent is barless which I doubt)

one parent looks blue spread het grizzle, maybe tiger grizzle (has to be het grizzle because one baby isnt grizzle)

the other parent looks pied (baldhead) ash red t-pattern or baldhead rec red and she carries (im guessing its a hen) kite bronze

one squab is blue t-pattern with kite bronze and one dose of grizzle. (tortoise shell)

the other is almost baldhead pied ash red bar (mealey)

both squabs have white flights which is good on flying birds, helps to see their wings flapping in the sky


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks for your reply. How do you manage to learn so much about this? I have few more pictures and questions if people are interested. Is it possible to intentionally breed more tortoise shell birds?

Thanks again,

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is a better picture of the red bird. This is the cock.

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Is this young one what you call a blue t-pattern with kite bronze?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Yes this looks like the younger kite but without grizzle

Once you learn the basic equations or rules its easy.

all genes or modifiers are carried in one or two doses 

if its a dominant it usually shows in one dose and two

if its recessive it needs 2 doses to show (one from each parent)

I bred one blue cock with a brown hen and got a recessive white baby

recessive white is like recessive red, in two doses it covers the bird completly but in one dose you wouldnt know it was there


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

the red cock which i thought was a hen is a nice rich red so probably carries kite bronze. kite is not so nice on blue birds but inhances red. Tortoise shell is not really a colour its a description - it explains kite bronze on blue birds with grizzle


In most breeds bronze/rust/red on a blue bird is undesirable. a blue should be blue/black

personal preference

so to breed tortoise shell you need grizzle and kite on a blue bird


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

This bird is from another pair (picture attached). I have breed 4 rounds from this pair. Each round has one of these (though the kite is not as obvious as this bird). I attached another picture of two young birds, these are what I've been getting each round.

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

"to breed tortoise shell you need grizzle and kite on a blue bird"

This will probably show how little I understand about all this - If I pair a blue t-pattern with kite bronze with a grizzle do I get tortoise shell?

John


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Yes, pretty much. T-pattern is ideal for a good tortoise shell

Homozygous(2 dose) t-pattern + hetrozygous (1 dose) grizzle + **** or hetro kite = tortoise shell 

when you breed two het grizzles together you get 25% non grizzle 25% **** grizzle and 50% het grizzle 

so breeding two good tortoise shells together will produce some non tortoise shells. (double dose of grizzle or non grizzle is not technically tortoise shell)

that makes sense aye?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

you have 3 of the four base patterns, Bar, Cheque, T-pattern. you dont appear to have barless its a little rarer. you also have two out of three base colours, blue and ash red you don't appear to have brown which is also a little rare. You have one blue hen with spread and grizzle she is nice and I saw 2 spread squabs from her on the other post.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is my last pair, the grizzle is the hen. I'll follow this up with a few pictures of some of the young I have breed other than the few you have seen. Thank you for your time and help.

John


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm learning too, I like to see the offspring a pair can produce. Its interesting when you breed two similar birds together and get allsorts of babies, I'm probably not making much sence but I find it all quite interesting and entertaining. they say keeping pigeons is like a bug.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

A few extra pictures. I have only had rollers and been breeding since July last year. I also have Australian Performing Tumblers. Completely different colours though - almonds, kites, reds, yellows, agates, just as confusing though! Having trouble with the pictures, will start another thread.

John


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Cool australian performing tumblers sound fun. do they tumble like rollers? Far out! we just had an earthquake, not real bad though about a 5 i think


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Are you in Christchurch with Evan?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

yea we live together I got him into pigeons then he got me into genetics


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Aust Perfoming Tumblers aren't flown just for shows???? Must be getting late for you!


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I must have too many pictures. I'll try and put some pictures of the tumblers in Show Breeds and the rollers in the Performing Breeds. I also have Show Pen Homers.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I know nothing about australian performing tumblers, I will google them. how long have you kept them? you can fly almost any breed, some are hard to train I thought I lost two white english carriers today but they came back lol


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I'll show you some pictures in Show Breeds later on. This is my first breeding season with them also. I'm splitting up the pairs now as I wean the last of the young ones. I've put up too many pictures so I will have to delete some. 
I have quite a variety in my rollers, I want to breed some nice colours for next years shows. The better marked birds I will show the rest I will fly. Breeding will start again in July. I've have a bit of time to think about the pairings. I am not flying the young that I want to show and breed with.

I would like to try and breed some white birds, more lavenders, self recessive reds and tortoise shells. I think I have most of what's needed. If you could tell me the birds I need for this I'll show you what I have to work with. Once I breed these birds next year I will have a better understanding of how things work.

Thanks,

John


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I havn't seen white rollers but I'm sure you could breed one or someone has them, there are many ways to breed white.
Self red (recessive red) is a nice look, I wonder if you have a recessive red gene in your flock of rollers. you only need one dose on one bird to breed them.
Lavenders and tortoise shell are not my idea of nice colours to breed, but it is interesting seeing how spread varies on ash red and how kite bronze works on blue.
The other way round is good, kite on ash red and spread on blue, I also really like spread on brown, I bred abeautiful self brown english carrier cock this year


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