# Hawked out again--more intense



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Today is the third day I was training my new rollers. I put them on the loft roof on a settling cage. I then released my homers. They flew and landed.Ten or fifteen minutes later a hawk swooped down scattering my birds all over the place where 2 or 3 homers hit my window with a loud thud. They were fine. The hawk hid on a tree waiting for my birds to land. When they landed, probably a minute or 3 minutes, then it strike again, scattering my birds one more time. This was all happening while my rollers were all watching in terror. Talk about resettling event. I hope my rollers will still want to stay on my loft amidst all of these.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh boy! not the kind of excitment you want.....that is when you run around with your arms waving in the air all frantic and yelling up to the sky...get out of here!!!! and then your neighbors think your a looney tune...


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

RodSD,

I was driving down oceandside blvd and I swear I saw 2 GIANT red tail hawks and three coopers hawks! Not a good time for us right now to fly our birds. I have been road training my homers closer towards the freeway than the country to try and keep them out of any flight paths over fields where hawks might be hanging out!

It's to bad we cant have hawks trained as "escorts" to be with our pigeons in the air to keep them safe!


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## Kevin (May 13, 2009)

I agree, It's really crazy right now. A neighbor of mine was loft flying, then 5 minutes after that, 3 hawks screeching started to fly towards the birds. Even I was nervous for him.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

RodSD said:


> Today is the third day I was training my new rollers. I put them on the loft roof on a settling cage. I then released my homers. They flew and landed.
> 
> *Ten or fifteen minutes later a hawk swooped down scattering my birds all over the place where 2 or 3 homers hit my window with a loud thud.* They were fine.
> 
> ...


Those poor birds! 

Cindy


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## della (Jan 29, 2009)

Sounds grim, Rod.  Got all my fingers crossed for your birds. Things are a little quieter around here after having my birds locked up for about 3 weeks; they have had 2 successful loft flights in the last 3 days with no hawks showing up so far...I can't believe how quickly the pigeons get over a hawk attack, however ...I am sure they haven't forgotten, but they get on with life and flying with amazing optimism. I am sure your rollers learned about the dangers of hawks - not the settling experience you wanted, but a good lesson I guess. Good luck!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks folks. The story becomes worst. Check my new thread about my missing roller.

della,
I am trying to figure out whether these birds will want to stay given these experiences. Home should feel safe, but I have chaos.


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I would suggest leaving all your birds in for a solid week. Hopefully the hawk will move on.


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## della (Jan 29, 2009)

RodSD said:


> Thanks folks. The story becomes worst. Check my new thread about my missing roller.
> 
> della,
> I am trying to figure out whether these birds will want to stay given these experiences. Home should feel safe, but I have chaos.


Yes, I see your point...I didn't understand that you had only had the rollers for a very short time. They haven't really had time to identify home as safe yet.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

RodSD,

Try keeping your birds in for a week or so until the hawks move on. Right now they know where they can find plenty of food. Believe me they will keep coming after those little rollers until they get every last one.

Let the hawks find another food source. There is plenty! They don't need to dine on rollers everyday. Those little ones don't have a chance.


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

last resort,,when you have had it,,,nothing else work,,create a no fly zone,and enforce it,..sincerely james waller


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## NightOwl (Jul 14, 2009)

Imagine you have a child, that child really wants to go out to play. You know there is a sniper waiting for any child that ventures out. You have lost children to the sniper before but heck, the child really wants to go out and play plus you want to watch the child play. Children need exercise you know. so out the door you push the child. Guess what? The sniper strikes as you and your other children watch in horror.

This process repeats until you have no more children to push out the door and you are so sad that you tell all your friends and they feel bad for you. In time you recover and you have some more children. Guess what? There's a sniper in the neighborhood but those darn children need some exercise and need to learn how to avoid the sniper and so you push them out the door to play.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hawks at my place don't migrate. They are all here year round. Some even had nest site. So what I do is to fly my birds when they are not around. Sometimes I am successful. Sometimes I am not.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

NightOwl said:


> Imagine you have a child, that child really wants to go out to play. You know there is a sniper waiting for any child that ventures out. You have lost children to the sniper before but heck, the child really wants to go out and play plus you want to watch the child play. Children need exercise you know. so out the door you push the child. Guess what? The sniper strikes as you and your other children watch in horror.
> 
> This process repeats until you have no more children to push out the door and you are so sad that you tell all your friends and they feel bad for you. In time you recover and you have some more children. Guess what? There's a sniper in the neighborhood but those darn children need some exercise and need to learn how to avoid the sniper and so you push them out the door to play.


I like that analogy.


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## Tennman1 (Mar 31, 2009)

Gosh, that sniper wouldn't last long around my neighborhood, one child sniped is not acceptable!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

LOL Tennman1! That sniper happened to be federal agent. With that I've decided to get pigeons from planet Krpton. I am still trying to know how to import from such long distance. Sometimes I got the feeling that the place probably went out of business. Does anyone know if their place blew sometime ago? I've heard this Kal-El dude saying something about the place.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Rod...I hope you got the meaning behind NightOwl's post.


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## TrevorsCoop (Jul 14, 2009)

The hawks by me stick around most of the year. With our birds, they are pretty fast. All are mixed but they all have racer/homer blood in them. Our red tail hawks, the pigeons usually had a chance the get away quick enough. But with the cooper's hawks, they had no chance. Thats why when I can have pigeons again I won't fly them.


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## Tennman1 (Mar 31, 2009)

Charis....I know you got the message, I think Rod did, but is prudent Federal agents aren't above the law are they?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TrevorsCoop said:


> The hawks by me stick around most of the year. With our birds, they are pretty fast. All are mixed but they all have racer/homer blood in them. Our red tail hawks, the pigeons usually had a chance the get away quick enough. But with the cooper's hawks, they had no chance. Thats why when I can have pigeons again I won't fly them.


I know what you mean. The coopers are tough. We had so many hawk strikes here this past winter that even the ferral flock that comes around for a meal, and has been coming for like 22 years now, well even they stopped coming for a few months. The hawks have let up some for now, but what an awful winter we had with them. I'd like to let mine out, but I'm afraid to. So for now the aviary will have to suffice.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Tennman1 said:


> Charis....I know you got the message, I think Rod did, but is prudent Federal agents aren't above the law are they?


Nope...neither is the SW CO. in Nashville!


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## JohnG (Jul 14, 2009)

*hawk help*



Kevin said:


> I agree, It's really crazy right now. A neighbor of mine was loft flying, then 5 minutes after that, 3 hawks screeching started to fly towards the birds. Even I was nervous for him.


Go to pigeon tv .com left side ask the pigeon guy see my video john glemser that well help you or email me [email protected] .net


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## Tennman1 (Mar 31, 2009)

Ya got that right Charis


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Welcome JohnG to the forum. Thanks for the link.

I am not worried for coopers if my birds are in the air. My birds can out fly them except when they are very young. These coopers hit my birds during takeoff and landing and my birds had to do this vertical takeoff to clear my house roof first. It doesn't help if the tree where they hide is just less than 30 feet or less from me. It is a perfect ambush spot.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

if your white bird already got taken down theres no way your rollers are going to get away from those coopers trust me ,its just a matter of time ..summer months are the months of plenty for them soon but as september comes around your gonna have huge losses if you keep flying your birds thats for sure


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## ducklady (Dec 11, 2004)

A lot of raptors dont really migrate but there are young birds trying to find territory right now. So removing the food source may get them to move on. They are just trying to survive and find food.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I released all my birds including my rollers today for the second time and a hawk scared the hell out of them. They skyed out really high. The hawk was on top of them. These rollers go really high when they get attack.

LokotaLoft,
I agree. My rollers got left behind when the hawk was present especially my youngest roller (still squeaks). It was very slow and got left behind that it flew alone. My other homers distracted the hawk so that roller got saved. I released my rollers to resettle them and to show my visiting friend about their rolling. The hawk changed the plan today. They were all in safe.

ducklady,
I've been flying this whole year and my hawks never leave. They are resident. Yes, I agree they are looking for food. Last year I fed half of my flock to these birds of prey involuntarily. This time they are attacking me rather early. I try to coexist with them. I just can't ask them not to take my favorite birds. But they do!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Rod...I just don't understand why you keep flying your birds. I never will understand. It makes me crazy.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

you sure are a glutten for punishing your birds arent you :s its almost as if you want them to die ...


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Folks,
You don't have to understand why I fly my birds. I just feel like I want these birds to do what God or nature intended them to do. I also derive enjoyment seeing them fly. That is the reason why I have chosen a flying breed instead of show birds. It is hard to explain, but it is like a pilot seeing an airplane on the ground and that pilot wants that baby up in the sky. The problem is this risk--hawk is ever present. Long ago when I got hit I lock down for one week. I noticed, however, that my birds performance suffered and they ended up more vulnerable. It takes them another week or more to get back from their original performance so now I only lock down for 2 or 3 days and fly them up again.

I obviously will not fly injured bird, very old bird, or sick bird. That would be sentencing them to their premature deaths.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

After 2 days lock down I got to release my birds again today and finally my red grizzle roller first came out. Then hell broke loose after 15 minutes of flying. They got chased, swooped on and now my red grizzle roller is missing. Talked about first time out experience. It seems that when these rollers roll, they attract predator's attention. My roller (and homer) flew a long time. My roller flew for 1 hour while my homers flew about 45 minutes nonstop. Every time they tried to land, the hawk swooped on them --not allowing any breather at all. I released them around 1:30 pm to go around the time when the hawk appears. Apparently this hawk is staying put. It attacked me from 1 to 4 pm already. It is not leaving even after lock down. After I called all birds in except the missing one, a sharp-shinned hawk got a small bird on my own eyes in front of me. My place is infested with hawks.

The ambush point:


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## della (Jan 29, 2009)

Commiserations, Rod; it certainly is a hard time for you. I can only suggest that you keep them locked down for a good while until the hawks get used to looking elsewhere for a meal as you are just going to sustain losses this way. Obviously you love flying your pigeons, and the ambush tree is not going to disappear (it looks to me as if it is on the neighbouring property) ...if this was my situation, I would be considering the long term and thinking about whether I need to relocate my home to a more pigeon-friendly and hawk-unfriendly area - a major response I know, but if pigeon-flying is your great love in life, then you should consider looking out for a home where that passion can be indulged without the heartache of constant hawk stress and constant losses. A yard without dense overhanging trees would have to be a good start!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I hope you get him back. I know it sounds rather drastic to consider a move, but with the way the hawks are there, if flying is your passion, then I think you should maybe consider it. Even if that tree were taken down, they know the birds are there, and they'd just find another perch. Don't know why some people have so many predators, and others seem to be fairly lucky and don't get many.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The bird is not back. I released my search team and no sign of that bird. I don't know any place that is hawk safe here. Wherever I go I see them and in any season. I tried several days or weeks of lock down before and it doesn't work. When my birds start flying, it seems they lure them. These rollers seemed to lure them more. I think the way they fly and roll attracts them so bad. In the air when they roll, they look like they got injured and falling. So I think that what tempts those hawks. I didn't release my rollers today only my 7 experienced homers and surprisingly there was no hawk attack.

When birds migrate they go here and they stay here. I am also been reading about cooper's hawk and other predators and apparently they are attracted to bodies of water. Well, it just so happen that I am close to a lake so that could be part of the reason.

It is indeed great to find a place where you can fly your birds and not get stressed out. That red grizzle roller didn't get a chance to memorize the place. It came out from the loft because it noticed that my homers are happily flying, tried to fly to the house roof and the hawk swooped down. It just took off really high, but surprisingly routed. It just didn't land, but went somewhere.

I am hoping to get it back, but with rollers I have less confidence compared to homers. My friend's rollers get lost in front of the house when tossed! It seemed that rollers have varying homing ability. Mine is supposed to have excellent homing for a roller.

On a sadder or happier note, one of my rollers mated with my homer 3 days ago and now they have an egg. I was not expecting it until I saw the egg was about to roll down from the nest box. Both birds were trying to save it and I was in hurry to unlock my loft door until I was too late. It dropped 3 feet down. I didn't put any nest bowl thinking I would have to wait 7 to 10 days before something happens. So I got my answer. It is possible for these pigeons to have eggs in 3 days after mating. This roller has been with me for only 10 days.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

RodSD said:


> Folks,
> You don't have to understand why I fly my birds. I just feel like I want these birds to do what God or nature intended them to do. I also derive enjoyment seeing them fly. That is the reason why I have chosen a flying breed instead of show birds. It is hard to explain, but it is like a pilot seeing an airplane on the ground and that pilot wants that baby up in the sky. The problem is this risk--hawk is ever present. Long ago when I got hit I lock down for one week. I noticed, however, that my birds performance suffered and they ended up more vulnerable. It takes them another week or more to get back from their original performance so now I only lock down for 2 or 3 days and fly them up again.
> 
> I obviously will not fly injured bird, very old bird, or sick bird. That would be sentencing them to their premature deaths.


Rod, locking down for 1 week isn't enough...months might do it. Your birds can build their strength again and it sure beats being dead.
I feel so sorry for your birds. They don't have a choice...you do...they are completely at your mercy.
I sure hope that no one else, on this forum, offers you more birds when these are dead, for the sake of the birds.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Charis,

When I was given birds, they told me I can fly them. I always ask them if I can fly these birds without any objections. They, too, experienced hawk attacks so they get "it." I've done that month lock up thing and when they come out, they can't fly so they are more vulnerable than ever. They are closer to death.

Here is one more thing. I just open my loft entrance door and they go out escaping so they want to fly. I open my trap, and they willingly wants to go up. I don't force them to fly. They just love it. You should see their faces when they enjoy flying, zigzagging, doing acrobatic stuff, buzzing the loft. Obviously, I've seen their terror faces as well. That is when hawk comes.

Oh yeah, I buy pigeons, too, so no one is forced to give me one.

I am also not writing this thread so that people will take a pity on me. On the contrary, I am sharing my experiences so that other people might gain some insights or lessons or even get the whole view of keeping pigeons. Pigeon flying is not all fun as my experiences show. It might even gives someone different perspective (and opinions as you do).

So here is my question for you which I've been trying to solve: "How can I fly my birds safely?" Your answers seem to be have always been not to fly them. I am a flier, Charis! 

Anyhow, thanks for any advice. I always put your advice as alternative plan so don't think I am ignoring it.


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## della (Jan 29, 2009)

RodSD said:


> The bird is not back. I released my search team and no sign of that bird. I don't know any place that is hawk safe here. Wherever I go I see them and in any season. I tried several days or weeks of lock down before and it doesn't work. When my birds start flying, it seems they lure them. These rollers seemed to lure them more. I think the way they fly and roll attracts them so bad. In the air when they roll, they look like they got injured and falling. So I think that what tempts those hawks. I didn't release my rollers today only my 7 experienced homers and surprisingly there was no hawk attack.


Sorry to hear he is not back yet Rod. Your thoughts on rollers attracting the hawks by seeming to be injured or falling is an interesting one. In my more limited experience with hawk attacks, they certainly do seem to be attracted when I have young birds out that I am trying to settle. I had a hawk chasing my birds again last week on two occasions without success (cheers to my birds for outsmarting him!). The next day he obviously visited my birds when they were locked in the loft - I was out briefly and came home to a loft full of very frightened birds cowering in the recesses of the highest perch spaces, and my bleeding heart dove standing rigid with fright in his separate cage. But he didn't succeed in scoring dinner on any of these occasions because my birds had gained some experience and also because he couldn't get to them on the 3rd occasion. Since then he hasn't visited - and I really suspect that he has gone in search of easier meals that don't waste his precious energy. I know he'll be back, but I do think that my birds have a slight advantage when the hawk already thinks that the birds are too fast for him or unavailable. With your rollers, I suspect the hawks think that there is an easy meal when they see them roll. If moving is not a viable option for you, then it may be prudent to stick with your homers who seem to have more runs on the board for outsmarting the hawks in your area. Good luck Rod, I'll keep right on cheering for your birds and hope that quieter flying is just around the corner for you.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

RodSD said:


> Charis,
> 
> When I was given birds, they told me I can fly them. I always ask them if I can fly these birds without any objections. They, too, experienced hawk attacks so they get "it." I've done that month lock up thing and when they come out, they can't fly so they are more vulnerable than ever. They are closer to death.
> 
> ...


There is no safe flying. Only you can decide what and how you do it. I would wait a few weeks and see if he (hawk) goes elsewhere, otherwise your just feeding him your birds, that does'nt make sense. And I do have to say I have never been able to see my pigeons "faces" when they are flying..


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## ducklady (Dec 11, 2004)

What about putting some aviary netting up? We did ours so easily and my pigeons love flying around in it. It was so much easier than i thought it would be. 

Even if you cant cover the entire flight area you could put some up in front of the area the hawks come from that would provide you with some extra warning time. I have also seen people just tie some string line down and have streamers running from it and that seems to deter the BOPs. 

I know a guy who traps the hawks and brings them to a rehabber (they are always beat up badly after being in the wire trap) even though its illegal I am just glad he doesnt kill them. They are amazing birds and just trying to survive. He constantly has to trap them though. You get rid of one there is always another one in its place. He flies his birds but i think accepts that the freedom obviously comes with a price. 

We go through the same thing with people who only want to keep ducks on a pond. They just replace them as they get eaten. They dont get them from us but so many places you can buy them and people dont care what happens to them.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks folks for understanding and your suggestions.

Because I released my homers yesterday and they didn't get attack, I've decided to release my rollers as well today. After just 5 minutes of flying the hawk started chasing them again, swooping, scaring the birds one more time. The hawk waited on my neighbor's tree for 1 hour and 30 minutes waiting for my birds to land, then do the swooping one more time. It did that 3 times in a row. It seems that these rollers definitely attracts them. It would be another lock down. So for four roller releases, they all got attacked on 4 separate occasions. These rollers are not getting any breather room.

To give everyone perspective I have two hawk nesting sites. One is located west of me and the other east of me. They are only couple of blocks from my place. My neighbor's tree is located north of me and that is where 1 or 2 hawks roost every sunset. That tree overlooks my loft. I am, if you will, in the middle of hawk territory.

I now don't feel releasing my rollers if they attract too much BOP attention. But if you have ever seen a roller fly in person, it is very entertaining. It is like watching a circus trapeze act. It is just beautiful when they roll fast, yet it scares you when they are falling downwards.

My red grizzle roller is not back. I doubt of it returning. It didn't have the chance to memorize the place and the presence of hawks will probably prevent it from returning. If the bird is still alive and didn't get eaten, I just hope that someone trapped it somewhere else and takes care of it. It is a very beautiful bird.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*della*,
Sorry to hear about your hawk attacks. They are persistent buggers. But the more your pigeons develop hawk awareness/smart/strength, these hawks sometimes just leave them alone knowing they won't succeed unless during winter when desperation starts.


*spirit_wings*,
I agree it doesn't make sense feeding them. You haven't seen your pigeons' faces during flight? They look down from time to time to check you out. I see their faces when they buzz my loft at roof height scaring me thinking they will hit the roof. Their behavior reminds me of children playing without care in the world, carefree, so happy.

*ducklady*,
I've been thinking of that aviary net for a long time believe it or not. I just don't know where can I buy the nets. I think the nets would make an excellent resettling/rehoming tool as well.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

RodSD said:


> I've been thinking of that aviary net for a long time believe it or not. I just don't know where can I buy the nets. I think the nets would make an excellent resettling/rehoming tool as well.


Home Depot or Lowe's Garden Dept ..

Also check out this place: http://clover.forest.net/kwcages/index.html

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

RodSD said:


> Charis,
> 
> When I was given birds, they told me I can fly them. I always ask them if I can fly these birds without any objections. They, too, experienced hawk attacks so they get "it." I've done that month lock up thing and when they come out, they can't fly so they are more vulnerable than ever. They are closer to death.
> 
> ...


Exactly...don't fly them. You are risking their lives for your own entertainment and amusement.
I would say the same to anyone that shared experiences similar to the ones you have told us.


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Rod,

Lock them up for a solid month. Get a bunch of AOL CD's or foil ribbon. String it up in the trees and around your yard. Throw down alot of cheap corn feed in a trash can lid in your back yard. Attract crows and lots of them.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

RodSD said:


> Folks,
> You don't have to understand why I fly my birds. I just feel like I want these birds to do what God or nature intended them to do. I also derive enjoyment seeing them fly.


Nature intended for birds to fly free in the wild and not to live in lofts and be used for entertainment. What nature intended has already been taken away from these birds. They are domesticated animals and deserve to be cared for and *protected *by their keepers.

I doubt you'd be so quick to fly your birds if you did not find them so easily replaceable.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

RodSD,

The bottom line is you have a resident hawk. If you let those little rollers or any other young bird out to fly the hawk will eventually get them. 

So you have to make up your mind, either you keep them in until the hawk finds a different food source and moves on or be prepared to watch the hawk get all of them one by one.

ggoss1 knows what he is talking about when he told you to attract crows to your area. 
They chase hawks away from where they are nesting and will warn your birds when hawks are in the area.

But even that will take some time, and you seem to be in an awfully big hurry. Take the time you need to know your area. Give the birds the time they need to know when and when not to fly. Please allow those little birds a chance to perform for you. They cannot do that in the talons of a hawk.

When your enviroment seems quiet and still, never let your birds out. If you do not hear birds chirping and singing, that usually means they are hiding and for very good reason.

I wish you luck with your craft. Just take the time you need to learn your sport without sacraficing your birds. We cannot stop hawks, but we can and do learn how to stack the cards against them. Rule number 1....Stop providing food.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

sasha008,

I love my birds. I treat them as pets. They are not replaceable. I mourn when they are lost/dead. I do not just fly my birds for entertainment. My birds do it for fun, too. This is not sick form of entertainment where someone dies for fun.

Your claim that they are domesticated animals is true and they deserve to be cared and protected by their keepers. But the Fish and Wildlife treats these birds as part of the food chain without any rights of protection, etc.

What I want is very simple. I want these birds to fly, but not getting attack so frequently. Those hawks behaviors are acting like pests. I find it ok to get attack from time to time. That is nature, but if it is too frequent, then somewhere along the line, there is something wrong. Either these hawks have nothing to eat or they perhaps are overpopulated. But who really knows the answer.

Is it so hard to get my simple want?

Again I am a flyer. I am not a show breeder.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips.

Believe it or not, I have done most of those hawk prevention stuff. I have crows that protect my birds and they have saved me countless of times. The only safe way is not to fly these birds. But that would be counter-thesis of what I want in this pigeon hobby.

Even noisy environment where birds are singing doesn't imply the hawk is not around. It may have perched somewhere else and when my birds fly, they can see them and go at with them.

*Feather,*
I am indeed in a hurry! Fall and Winter is coming. That is when hawks are the hungriest so I want to train these birds right away.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*Update:*

I got my red grizzle roller back. Apparently, it went back to the original place (home). For a roller bird with less than homing ability and not tossed, it was able to find the original home 2 miles from my place. I got a message from Gary that he got the bird so I went to his house and got my bird back. He is a real nice guy. 

I haven't flown my birds for 2 days now. I was in a lock down again.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Well Rod...since you are unable to provide a safe environment and are unwilling to keep them in, long term...maybe the kindest thing to do would be to place these birds with someone that can give them the safety they deserve. If the Pigeons aren't there, maybe the Hawks will move on. You can always get more Pigeons someday.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Charis,

The hawks were here before I came. So your argument is not valid. You are, however, correct in saying that I can't provide a safe environment for them. Their environment (outside) is beyond my control. The only way I can provide a safe environment is to keep them inside, not flying. But I don't find cage bird keeping more fun. I had those before and converted our whole patio for them. I enjoyed it, but it is a different feel to see your birds flying in the air. You and I have different goals. I want to fly them; you want them on the ground. I want them to be free outside; you want them lock in. Obviously, both of us don't want these birds getting killed.

I want to keep these birds in the long run. I don't know where you got your idea. I don't know anyone who loves pigeons to keep them only a short while. If they do, they go back again in the future. I love my pigeons. Whoever says otherwise don't know me at all.

If this continue, getting more pigeons in the future will get even worse. Have you noticed the trend? There are more hawk attacks than ever. If I follow your advice, the day I get birds again probably will be even worse. I'll bet you will advice me the same--keep your birds and not fly them anymore! Obviously, if the government does something different, then perhaps things will be better. But I can't see the future so I fly now.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

RodSD said:


> sasha008,
> 
> I love my birds. I treat them as pets. They are not replaceable. I mourn when they are lost/dead. I do not just fly my birds for entertainment. My birds do it for fun, too. This is not sick form of entertainment where someone dies for fun.


I'm sorry but it just doesn't seem like it to me. This is a post of yours from your previous hawked out thread dated Feb. 4th:

"I have calculated my losses for this year with respect to hawks. I lost 1/3 of the total pigeons I have since last year. So for every 9 pigeons, the hawk gets 3. This doesn't include the birds that got injured, only the dead ones. If I include the injured birds such as those with puncture wounds or tailless birds, then I calculated it to be 1/2 or 50 percent. So there! Half of my birds are getting hit or dead! What I am doing now is that for every dead bird I breed 2 birds to compensate.

The calculation I use is very simple.

losses = total Dead birds/ total number of birds for one year * 100

hawk damage = (total dead birds + injured birds)/total number of birds for one year * 100"


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I had no idea that this has been going on this long, or there have been that many losses.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodSD 

"I love my birds. I treat them as pets. They are not replaceable. I mourn when they are lost/dead. I do not just fly my birds for entertainment. My birds do it for fun, too. This is not sick form of entertainment where someone dies for fun."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

How can you say this, when you posted that in February? I love my birds. They ARE my pets. I would never knowingly send them to slaughter like this. The odds would have to be much better before sending them out to fly. If it was for their benefit, and their enjoyment, then it wouldn't be to their almost certain death. That isn't loving your birds. Sorry.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FEB. 09---POST MADE BY ROD:

"I have calculated my losses for this year with respect to hawks. I lost 1/3 of the total pigeons I have since last year. So for every 9 pigeons, the hawk gets 3. This doesn't include the birds that got injured, only the dead ones. If I include the injured birds such as those with puncture wounds or tailless birds, then I calculated it to be 1/2 or 50 percent. So there! Half of my birds are getting hit or dead! What I am doing now is that for every dead bird I breed 2 birds to compensate.

The calculation I use is very simple.

losses = total Dead birds/ total number of birds for one year * 100

hawk damage = (total dead birds + injured birds)/total number of birds for one year * 100"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ya know, when you read this post you made in Feb., your loft sounds more like a slaughter house. I can understand that you enjoy flying your birds, but at the cost of their lives..............I mean, come on. When you lose 100% of your birds in a year, and it gets down to that you just breed two for every one, to make up the numbers, well that's just wrong. You aren't flying your birds for their benefit. You're doing it for your own enjoyment. When they are dying in such numbers, then it surely isn't for them. If you really cared about them, then you would care that they are dying in a horrible way, horrified when caught, and painfully, being torn apart and eaten alive. How can you say that you care about them? Somehow, I missed this post, but I'm sure looking at it now.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Rod...*I don't think you *...should have Pigeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RodSD said:


> That is nature, but if it is too frequent, then somewhere along the line, there is something wrong. Either these hawks have nothing to eat or they perhaps are overpopulated. But who really knows the answer.


Rod, the answer is that they stay there, because there is free food there. They catch your birds all the time. Why would they go elsewhere?

The ferral flock that comes to my yard was getting hit so often this past winter by hawks, that they stopped coming for the first time in 22 years. They stayed away for three months. They began to return a couple of months ago. The hawks are gone. They may be back eventually, but the reason they are gone, is that there was no food here for them, so they have moved on. If they are getting lucky everyday, then they're not going anywhere. Take away the food supply, and they have no choice but to move on. If they find another place where the hunting is good, then they may stay THERE for a while.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yes you might not have fun keeping them in as a flyer, but they will have more fun being alive and living even if it is in a loft, so if you have that bad of a hawk problemo then the only thing to do is keep them in, if your joy has gone out of keeping pigeons because of that, time to move on and find another hobby. JMO.


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Rod,

I can help you build an aviary for the cost of your materials. I know it wont be the same as free flight but it's a compromise.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ya know, if you keep them in for a while, the hawks could leave and go elsewhere. Then you could fly them again. It might be worth the wait. Give it a try.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Pigeons do not love to fly when there is a preditor around. Mine won't even leave the loft. 

They are scared to death. Why are yours flying? Do they need to eat? 

I responded to this thread sincerely, but RodSD already knows everything. He probably knows more than all of us, and he still sends those little birds out for the slaughter. With the statistics that he provided in his earlier post, there is something really wrong here. 

There _is_ a sport going on, but I wouldn't call it "flying birds"


RodSD you have been feeding those hawks for such a long time they may never leave.
After you feed the hawk breakfast, you pop two more pigeons in the oven.

You know, your red grizzle roller back probably thought he was out of danger by flying back to where he remembers being safe...and then you had to go reclaim him.

I still can not figure out the nature of this thread, but it sure has done a number on me.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The statistics is correct. I gather that data for one year up to February. I flew the whole winter and that is how I got hit the most. People recommended that I should not fly those times, but instead fly during spring. When I flew this spring, I still get attack, but was very seldom and none of my pigeons died. This summer, their attack was more frequent than before.

The purpose of this thread is to show you that as a flier, this is what we go through. Some have less hawk problem, some more. I have one of the worst kind.

My pigeons love to fly. At my mere presence, they go in the trap and do that behavior like "let me out and fly." If they stay inside, I don't force them to fly.

Yes, I was slaughtered last year. That is a fact! I was hoping for a break this spring and I got my break. I flew my birds everyday in the spring and none died. On many occasions, hawk ignored my birds. They just pass by, not bothering a bit. Only this summer seems rather different. It feels like winter already. I don't fly my birds to intentionally offer them as food. That won't make sense. If they are gone, I have nothing to fly. And because I love to fly them, their safety is important to me as well. I have followed many suggestions, but none of it work. What I have not followed is to permanently keep them inside the loft--not flying them all. From what I have leaned last year I am not going to fly my birds often during winter.

There seems to be impressions and opinions that I am feeding my birds to hawks. I suppose people are thinking of uniform distribution statistics so people ended up with that idea. My statistics is almost like a normal distribution where it is skewed to the right on winter months. So all those years I was not feeding my birds to hawks. They just got hit the most during winter and so sudden. When I got hit then during winter I have decided to breed more pigeons (that is where the breed twice for every kill data) to fly during what people call safe flying season--spring and summer.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I keep on reading this, "if you keep them in for a while, the hawks could leave and go elsewhere." Folks, this doesn't work at my place. Period. They have alternative food as well--doves that frequent my neighbor's feeders.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

well if your going to keep flying your birds with a hawk problem then don't make a thread whining or complaining or what ever it is about the hawks and loss of your birds, We are trying to give good advice here and you are just not wanting to hear it, so best to keep the death to yourself, It will get tiresome hearing about loss after loss.


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## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*hey Rod*

Man I feel for you! I would not want my birds to not be able to fly either. Last spring I saw several hawks. Some of which I've never seen before. I live in northern Ontario Canada and alot of the hawks here were killed off by the use of pcb's on the crops that were grown over 30 years ago. But the Gov has reintroduced them from stock fround in the USA. I lost 4 birds last spring and two of them I realy needed. I was just a few days from putting them with mates when they vanished. Ouch! A buddy of mine lost 17! In his case a falcon had moved into the area and as he started diastance training it started following them and picking them off 2 at a time. It finially found where the birds were living and that day it injured two and killed two more. It would grab and kill one drop it and grab another. One for me and one for my chicks is my thinking. To live in an area with higher than normal hawk numbers is rough. Mostly here we get the spring and fall migration. I drive alot and noticed that the hawks were up early and not seen again until later in the day. So I switched times I allowed the birds to fly and I've lost none since. Researching hawks confirmed that they tend to fly early using the currents produced by the sun as it heats the earth. And the fly again around supper time after the heat of the day has past. So I make sure my birds have plenty of fresh water and i don't put them out until 10am. They are back in by 1pm soemtimes earlier and I keep them in until an hour to an hour and a half before dark. Ths gets much harder to pull off when the days are shorter and cooler. Then the hawks could easily be hunting coser to these times. Best to change up the times when ahwks are more prevelent. Some days release at 11am and give them a short flight again just before dark. I'm raising white homers for wedding releases so they have to fly as much as possible in order to get young birds into shape and keep them in shape. When we use to raise Rollers I let them fly when they wished and we seldom lost any. Rollers sit alot more but they watch the skies more. I've seen them put the run on smaller hawks. Chasing them around like you sometimes see smaller black birds do to ravens...lol I know where there are alot of hawks the competition can cause them to fly more during the supposed down times for hawks but try flying when the hawks are not as active and switch the times up to keep the hawks guessing. Hope this helps Rod


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> *well if your going to keep flying your birds with a hawk problem then don't make a thread whining or complaining or what ever it is about the hawks and loss of your birds, We are trying to give good advice here and you are just not wanting to hear it, so best to keep the death to yourself, It will get tiresome hearing about loss after loss*.



And it's heartbreaking.
I still maintain that *you should not have Pigeons*. It *feels like, you get a charge out of reporting the strikes and losses. *


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Rod,
I have been keeping up with this thread and it appears you are hell bent on flying your birds, no matter what the consequence is. 

I realize we have a mixed bag of 'pigeon' folks here, e.g., rescuers, rehabbers, flyers, show fanciers, etc., so opinions will vary. 

I, personally, don't race, show or 'fly' birds. I *rescue* them. 

I've adopted two white Old Dutch Capuchines (on separate occasions) that were found wandering the streets frantically looking for something to eat, a beautiful fancy pigeon that was found flipping about in someone's yard who turned out to be a PMV pigeon (I'm convinced that bird was intentionally tossed as it couldn't fly a lick), an elegant Indian fantail that was found wandering the streets and a roller that was found by crows after fleeing a hawk. It was still a squeaker. 

I become very annoyed, no, I become livid when I read about people who send their birds flying for that person's enjoyment, knowing full well the lives of those birds are in serious jeopardy.  To do this repetitiously is inexcusable.

It's the _*rescuer* _who picks up the pieces after a bird (whether it be a homer, roller, tumbler, feral, etc.) has been attacked by one of it's predators. 

It's the *rescuer* who does everything in their power to put the bird back together again.

It's the _*rescuer*_ who digs deep in their pocket or purse for any loose change, or maybe slights themselves of a Star Buck's coffee or a movie, in order to provide the attacked bird with whatever is necessary to hopefully heal them.

It's the _*rescuer*_ who stays up all night watching over a gravely injured bird.

It's the _*rescuer*_ who cries uncontrollably because although they did the very best they could, it just wasn't enough.

It's the _*rescuer*_ who has to bury those birds who's injuries were to much to overcome.

It's the *rescuer* that will NEVER trun their back on a pigeon, whether it be a racer, roller, tumbler, feral, etc. 

Cindy



spirit wings said:


> well if your going to keep flying your birds with a hawk problem then don't make a thread whining or complaining or what ever it is about the hawks and loss of your birds, We are trying to give good advice here and you are just not wanting to hear it, so *best to keep the death to yourself, It will get tiresome hearing about loss after loss*.


It already has.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Rod,

This thread reads like a Hammer Horror story... I'd felt really upset reading about your losses, but when I saw the coldness of your statistics, I felt that something was skewed, and it wasn't the distribution.

Your hobby is turning into a bloodshed. What for? Let's look at your reasons:

1) Your pigeons like it.
Could that be just your opinion? Like the parents who force their kids to do what the parents had dreamed of achieving?

2) You are a flier.
How about YOU getting a pilot's licence?

3) You want them to do what God and nature wanted them to do.
Rollers aren't 'natural', they're genetic mutations, they wouldn't last long in the wild. Neither would most domestic pigeons.

4) It's like a circus trapeze act.
...how old are you?

Sorry. Thumbs down.

P.S. *Ggoss*, you're a star!


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## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*various reasons for keeping pigeons*

We all have our own reasons for keeping pigeons. I've met many fanciers ranging from those who could never harm a bird to those who destroy young ones because they don't measure up to a certain standard. I do my best not to judge any but rather glean the good from all and do the best i can for my own flock. My friend lost 17 birds to a falcon before he saw it. We discussed the losses often. Until the reason for the losses was detirmined and the adjustments made to keep the rest of the flock from harm. If you did not know him but only heard the convo's you might also say he aught not to have birds in his care. But the truth is he's one of the most caring fanciers I know. 
It's not always easy to know why young pigeons vanish. Since they are all banded it is hoped that any lost or injured birds will be reported and if possable returned. My eldest Roller has been injured twice and both times fully recovered at home. Our one lost youngster was found and I picked her up the same day of the call. I've been known to take in injured birds even ferrels and tend them. It is hard when they don't make it. The numbers of ferrels that die each season are far higher than those kept by fanciers. Ferrles here tend to be a food source for raven all winter. That is sickening to me! I've read no complaints about their actions within these posts. To fanciers hawks and ravens and raccons are apart of having pigeons. As sad as the out come often is when they find our birds we still go on seeking wisdom by asking help from others who have been in pigeon keeping longer than us. I've been at this almost 4 years now and I'm always happy to share what I've learned that truely works. Practicality seems to be most important and honesty is always the best aproach to solving any problem. I've read over what Rod has said and i can not find fault in it all. He apears to have severe hawk problems and I pitty the wild population of pigeons in his area. Hawks will clean them out and then they will turn to whats left (kept birds) until that too is gone. Birds are meant to fly and it is not much of a life if they can not. I would suggest the changing of the flight times to coexist with the hawks down times and should that fail I would advise building a very large aviary. Anyone asking for help deserves to find answers. We aught to speak ill of the hawks, ravens and crows none of which ate meat in Noahs day. Our pigeons thank God have not turned to canabilism! It is truely sad to see anyone being condemned who has come seeking advice. The word tells us, "Judge not lest you also be judged, condem not lest you also be condemned." Seeing the full picture tells us that birds lost through lax hands are only a drop in the bucket when compared to wild bird losses. The difference is anyone seeing a banded bird will generally report it to someone who can help. I have a flock of wild birds in my old greenhouse. The take care fo themselves comming and going as they please. Their numbers fluctate in the spring and in the fall. Who do we condemn for their losses? There is no one so we let it go which leaves our focus on those we think we can deal with. But for the every bird lost by fanciers thousands die yearly through other means. Birds kept live 3 times longer or more.


> Pigeons can live about five years in the wild. They sometimes live for more than 15 years when raised by people.


http://www.birds.cornell.edu/pigeonwatch/your-questions/great-questions-about-birds
A fancier with high losses tends to over his life time keep more birds alive longer than they would have made it in the wild where the average for an early demise is actually higher due to less illness and starvation. 


> According to an Avian Vet I know, at least 50% of feral pigeons die of starvation in the first year of life, the rest are just so undernourished that they die of other diseases, their life expectancy in cities like NY is less than 2 years.


New York Bird Club
I see no point in condemning anyone for trying to find a way to help their flock surviving. In the long run when they learn they will do more good thanks to the help of others


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Gille, you give good advice, but I no longer think Rod is asking for advice for his pigeons; he's looking for advice on how to practice his hobby with minimum losses. This forum is about saving pigeons' lives, not saving hobbies, so no wonder most people say 'Keep them in!' 
People who euthanise birds unnecessarily are not members of this forum. They may be very nice, like your friend, but still fall short of the mark (see the forum rules for yourself).
You say you've seen no complaints about ravens in these posts. But you will find plenty of posts about rescuing birds from predators. No complaints, just action. Positive action.

Do you know the story about the man who went to confession? He asked to be pardoned 'for stealing two chickens, no, three'.
'Why is that?', said the priest.
'It's because I'm gonna steal another tonight.'
Know what I mean?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Gille your missing the point, If you have a hawk problem then you need to keep the birds in till the hawk goes elsewhere, If the hawk does not, then it is not in agreement that they are let out to be eaten....It is just common sense. If one choses to feed his birds to a resident hawk there is nothing that can be done, so you trying to see something good in this is disturbing. He needs to keep his losses to himself if this is the practice he is going to chose. This subject will just go round and round, he will say my birds got hawked again and we will try to help by saying , oh lock them down, so you see there is no end. These are domestic birds not crows and songbirds. I think what he (rod) wants to do is have his cake and eat it too, well with a resident hawk,,, my flying days would be over,but thats me, so I can feel for the guy if that is something he thinks may have to happen.


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## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*rofl*



> Do you know the story about the man who went to confession? He asked to be pardoned 'for stealing two chickens, no, three'.
> 'Why is that?', said the priest.
> 'It's because I'm gonna steal another tonight.'
> Know what I mean?


ROFL yeah I understand. Still I hope Rod can find a time when the hawks don't fly so his birds can.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Gille said:


> We all have our own reasons for keeping pigeons. I've met many fanciers ranging from those who could never harm a bird to those who destroy young ones because they don't measure up to a certain standard. I do my best not to judge any but rather glean the good from all and do the best i can for my own flock. *My friend lost 17 birds to a falcon before he saw it. We discussed the losses often. Until the reason for the losses was detirmined and the adjustments made to keep the rest of the flock from harm. *If you did not know him but only heard the convo's you might also say he aught not to have birds in his care. But the truth is he's one of the most caring fanciers I know.
> *It's not always easy to know why young pigeons vanish*. Since they are all banded it is hoped that any lost or injured birds will be reported and if possable returned. My eldest Roller has been injured twice and both times fully recovered at home. Our one lost youngster was found and I picked her up the same day of the call. I've been known to take in injured birds even ferrels and tend them. It is hard when they don't make it. *The numbers of ferrels that die each season are far higher than those kept by fanciers.* Ferrles here tend to be a food source for raven all winter. That is sickening to me! I've read no complaints about their actions within these posts. To fanciers hawks and ravens and raccons are apart of having pigeons. As sad as the out come often is when they find our birds we still go on seeking wisdom by asking help from others who have been in pigeon keeping longer than us. I've been at this almost 4 years now and I'm always happy to share what I've learned that truely works. Practicality seems to be most important and honesty is always the best aproach to solving any problem. *I've read over what Rod has said and i can not find fault in it all. He apears to have severe hawk problems and I pitty the wild population of pigeons in his area*. Hawks will clean them out and then they will turn to whats left (kept birds) until that too is gone. Birds are meant to fly and it is not much of a life if they can not. I would suggest the changing of the flight times to coexist with the hawks down times and should that fail *I would advise building a very large aviary. *Anyone asking for help deserves to find answers. We aught to speak ill of the hawks, ravens and crows none of which ate meat in Noahs day. Our pigeons thank God have not turned to canabilism! *It is truely sad to see anyone being condemned who has come seeking advice.* The word tells us, "*Judge not lest you also be judged, condem not lest you also be condemned."* Seeing the full picture tells us that birds lost through lax hands are only a drop in the bucket when compared to wild bird losses. The difference is anyone seeing a banded bird will generally report it to someone who can help. I have a flock of wild birds in my old greenhouse. The take care fo themselves comming and going as they please. Their numbers fluctate in the spring and in the fall. Who do we condemn for their losses? There is no one so we let it go which leaves our focus on those we think we can deal with. But for the every bird lost by fanciers thousands die yearly through other means. *Birds kept live 3 times longer or more.*
> http://www.birds.cornell.edu/pigeonwatch/your-questions/great-questions-about-birds
> A fancier with high losses tends to over his life time keep more birds alive longer than they would have made it in the wild where the average for an early demise is actually higher due to less illness and starvation.
> ...


The issue isn't your friend.

In this case, we know why Rod's birds have vanished.

We can't do a thing about the number of ferals that perish each year although many of us do support large feral flocks. And...this isn't about feral flocks anyway.

Yes, I would say Rod does have a severe Hawk problem.

A member has offered to build him a loft for just the price of the materials.

Rod has not been willing to take our advise but he does repeat actions that are deadly to his birds over and over and over...

Judgement in this instance seems very appopriate.

The Pigeons in Rod's loft don't live nearly as long as ferals.

If you be talking about the Bible, humans were given the job of being the care takers of creatures of this earth and care takers of the earth itself. In my opinion, we have failed terribly on both counts.
*This, however is not a forum on religious beliefs.* It is for the most part an advocacy site for Pigeons. By repeating the same actions over and over thus putting his birds in deadly peril, Rod is teetering on the edge of breaking the forum rules on cruelity...MPO.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I promised myself that I would not post on this thread,because frankly I have had enough of this hawk attack stuff. I in the pass have posted on the subject. I feel that if one is going to fly their birds then they must understand that they have a responsilbty to the birds that they are flying, health,safety, are by far the most important. So let's take a look at Rod's problem. The first thing is he is flying rollers and homers, he should stick to one flying breed,and here I would say GET RID OF THE ROLLERS and stick with the homers. The homers can out fly the cooper and the red tail Rollers CAN NOT. A while back on one of his posts he showed his traping system I did not think much of it and said nothing as he was flying rollers and I think they have a much different system then I use for my homers it look like the landing board was realy the roof of the loft. He should use the CALIFORNIA AVIARY AND TRAPING system that most people that race here in this area use. (LOVEBIRDS) has this on her racing loft just check out her site.There is more that I could say but if he don't do the two things that I point out here there would be no reason to post other things that I feel need to be done, I will add this when flying your birds be out there and never leave your birds until they have all trap in.* GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If you think about it, in places where hawks are year round and heavily populated, such as Rod's situation, there is NO safe time to let them out.
Winter - Cold. They need extra food to stay alive. There are fewer fast food meals flying around because many have migrated. Everything stays under cover, except our pigeons outside. So they target them as they are an easy, consistant food source.
Spring - Breeding season. Gotta hunt extra for the babies. Your birds may not be hit as much due to the rising numbers of other prey in the area, but your loft is still a consistant food source.
Summer - At least double the amount of hawks with the juveniles starting to hunt. They are the most dangerous in that they are fearless and you standing outside won't stop a hungry juvenile hawk. They may not be as skilled, but they are very determined.
Fall - Juveniles still flying around. Birds start mirating again, so your loft starts to become a more favorite restaurant.

And we're back into the same cycle. And there's nothing you can do about it. Do I complain? Yes. Do I come on here and consistantly complain? No. Why? Because there's nothing left for me to do but lock them up, which I don't want to do, and it's the only viable advice others can give me, so what's the point of publicly complaining? Nothin.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Otherwise, put up with it.
Can't blame the hawks, they have just as much right to eat as any other animal.


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## della (Jan 29, 2009)

Becky: you have so much wisdom for one so young! Thanks for contributing your valuable thoughts to this rather heated thread.

The situation that Rod has raised is an important one to discuss, I believe; many members have responded emotionally, quite rightly, and many have given advice. Apart from what Rod intends to do about his situation (which is his own decision) I feel that it is important to point out that all along Rod has maintained that he is not whingeing or point-scoring about his hawk attacks, but trying to let members know how bad these attacks can get. While many of you, like George Simon, have undoubtedly heard it all before, there are newer members like me for whom the debate of 'to fly or not to fly' is a new and vital one. This thread has been heated, and I have felt my heart torn for both the pigeons and for Rod. But the ethical debate is such an important one to have and I for one have absorbed a great deal of the thoughts that this thread has engendered and am still weighing the various opinions and responses in my daily pigeon care. For me, that is the greatest advantage of being a member of this wonderful site. Rod will do what he decides he must, whatever that may be, but I am certain that he will have considered, if not followed, all the members' opinions offered, and for that reason as well as for the wider value of informed debate, it is right that he should have raised his problem for discussion and reading.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Della,
I see your point, but this has happened repeatedly (please note the word 'again' on the title of the thread), so why keep asking for advice, keep ignoring it, and keep complaining when the inevitable happens?
It's understandable that Rod should feel frustrated at not being able to fly his pigeons, but I think the cost is far too high. I feel miserable when I lose one pigeon through no fault of my own. If I regularly lost half a flock as Rod does, I wouldn't be able to live with myself.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Della,
It's fine for someone to explain about the dangers of hawks and it's fine to warn people of this. 

I believe where a lot of this 'heat' has come from is the fact that Rod knows full well there are LOTS of hawks in his area, however he continues to let his birds out to fly and then feels the need to give the group a detailed description of what happens each time the birds are out. There's no need for that. 

A pigeon doesn't have to come in _direct_ contact with a hawk to be scared out of their feathers. Quite frankly, I think it's cruel for anyone to let their birds out to fly _knowing_ danger is waiting in the wind so to speak. 

Cindy


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

To be blunt about it...Rod should have just kept it to himself. I'm sure many on here have had something to say but have thought twice about posting it because they knew they might offend someone. I don't agree with the amount of birds he's lost by countinuely flying but at least he's honest...I at least give him that. Rod will do what he wants to do and I'm quite sure he wont post a thread like this again judging from the responses I've read throughout this thread. Some people went as far as to dig up old post! That's just to much if you ask me...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Some people went as far as to dig up old post! That's just to much if you ask me...


The person that did that was just trying to make a point. To show how extreme his losses are, and what his attitude has been about it. They were just bringing up a post that rod himself had written. Nothing wrong with that. He is saying how much he cares about his birds. That post that was brought up showed just the opposite. If he didn't want it ever brought up, then he shouldn't have ever posted it.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

This thread certainly ended up with hot debate.

I don't understand why people believe that I don't follow their advice. I do, except to permanently stop flying them. I probably done a lot of more trying to prevent hawk attacks than many people here.

With respect to building aviary I don't want to do that because there is this concept called "out of sight, out of mind." What happens is that if you build an aviary and your pigeons go there, the hawks can see them more and they most likely stay. If they can't see them, then there is possibility that they will move on.

When I follow people's suggestions of preventing hawk attacks and it doesn't work at my place, I ended up thinking their advice is not convincing so I ended up discussing more hoping that perhaps someday someone will find a solution. And the problem being discussed is how to minimize hawk attacks.

With respect to reading this thread if you don't want to read it, don't! I am not forcing anyone to read my thread or post. Apparently, some people just want to hear rosy pic and story. I also was not aware that this forum is only about rescue and health care.

With respect to my trap, my birds land first on my house roof, then drops down either on my loft roof or my landing board. Sometimes they just dive straight to the loft roof, but that is too dangerous for them because my loft is under a pine tree. When my birds get hit usually when they are trying to land on my house roof or when they are just taking off. Sometimes they get chased in the air, but usually only bold hawks do that.

I suppose I will only keep my experiences with hawks. That can be done. Initially, I thought people have to hear every experience when you start flying so you know what you are getting into, but apparently some people don't want to hear that.

If you view my post from a perspective of a flier, then you may get it. If you don't, you never will. And, yes, I wanted to be a pilot when I was a kid. Through health reason I can't do so I just I fly desktop (flight sim). I am a bird lover as well. That was my hobby since I was in high school. Pigeon keeping is one of the extensions of that hobby.

I am not going to discuss things further. I am tired explaining. But if you have working solutions to prevent hawk attacks without harming them and I still can fly my birds, then just private message me. Apparently some people don't want to hear that.

Enough of this. I feel like I am wasting my time.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Well, there's another possibility, though I doubt it would work in your situation: *feed the predators*. That's what I do.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Teresa said:


> Well, there's another possibility, though I doubt it would work in your situation: *feed the predators*. That's what I do.


LOL...He already does!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

RodSD said:


> This thread certainly ended up with hot debate.


They usually do in situations like this.



RodSD said:


> With respect to reading this thread if you don't want to read it, don't!
> *I am not forcing anyone to read my thread or post*.


This is true. However, although I may not reply to every single post, as a member of the moderator team it's necessary to view each post/thread. If I am alerted to a particular post, I _will_ check it out. 



RodSD said:


> I also was not aware that this forum is only about rescue and health care.


Unless I missed it, I don't believe anyone said that. In fact, I stated the contrary.


AZWhitefeather said:


> Rod,
> *I realize we have a mixed bag of 'pigeon' folks here, e.g., rescuers, rehabbers, flyers, show fanciers, etc., so opinions will vary. *


Cindy


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a link with some info about damage control, you may beable to get a special permit to trap and release a BOP. http://www.extension.org/pages/Hawk_and_Owl_Damage_Assessment


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## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*One more question*



> Well, there's another possibility, though I doubt it would work in your situation: feed the predators. That's what I do.


what do you feed them? I figure this is a good thing to kow. AND strangely I've never heard of it before. I believe this topic has ben of great importance! Rods correct about aviaries being a draw and most if not all of us have them. We can close our birds in during the hawks frequent flier times and I often do but the aviries I'd never thought about. Mine are 1/4" wire mesh. Not easy for anything to break through but since i am in the business of flying for weddings and such I may have to fly them and NOT advertising where they live would be MUCH wiser..so thanks Rob for that input. Oh back to what do you feed them Teresa? Thanks all.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sorry to break the news to you It has been done and tried. people would be doing it if it worked and we would all know the solution to a resident hawk.....the straight fact is there is no solution. Thats the point. we would know by now! as long as folks have been keeping pigeons the secret would be out by now! This topic comes up all the time here, Keeping the birds up is the only solution! do that or don't, the keepers choice, I can only think that removing the bird is really the only thing to be done. there is a huge thread I think started by Smithfamilyloft, that goes on and on about hawks and what folks have tried and tried, his conclusion from what I remember was well heck guess I will have to keep them in or fly them anyway....so there is no secret way of dealing with it, But if you do find something get a patent in a hurry before you tell anyone.


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## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*patented*

[email protected]


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Gille said:


> [email protected]


, lol???? any who, you do know what a patent is right.....
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/what.htm


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Gille said:


> what do you feed them?


Cat food and scraps of meat and fish. But my predators aren't hawks, they're seagulls and feral cats. That's why I said I doubted it would work in his situation, as it might attract even more predators.
For me it works fine, because the seagulls and cats I feed have started to consider this as their territory _and keep other predators away._ In four years, only two squeakers were attacked and one I was able to safely retrieve:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/shrimps-off-the-menu-36539.html

So my suggestion is probably no good in this case... but heck, we've exhausted everything else!


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> The person that did that was just trying to make a point. To show how extreme his losses are, and what his attitude has been about it. They were just bringing up a post that rod himself had written. Nothing wrong with that. He is saying how much he cares about his birds. That post that was brought up showed just the opposite. If he didn't want it ever brought up, then he shouldn't have ever posted it.


I'm quite sure that Rod would remember what he posted without someone having to dig up an old post. That's just shoving it in the guys face, IMO.  

In the end there's really nothing we can do it's up to Rod to decide the fate of his birds, I say shut this thread down.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I'm quite sure that Rod would remember what he posted without someone having to dig up an old post. *That's just shoving it in the guys face, IMO.  *
> *In the end there's really nothing we can do it's up to Rod to decide the fate of his birds,* I say shut this thread down.


Actually...it's Rod shoving it on us thread after thread...month after month ...blow by blow and 2 threads within 24 hours.

You are right...there is *Nothing We *can do. Sucks...doesn't it? 
I do think your offer to build a loft for Rod's birds was lovely, kind and generous.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Noahs helper said:


> Would like to see if you all could help me in identifying a bird that periodically appears in my yard (this year for the first time). I have checked my southeastern bird field guide, but no luck. Comparing the body structure to the guide, I feel pretty sure it's some type of hawk. And just before it lands, the feeder birds all take off like bullets, even the mourning doves move faster than I ever thought them capible! It flies in, sits on the fence or in a tree for 10 seconds, then flies off. It is approx 14" tall, with solid, medium brown, head back and wings. I have never been able to view the front side of it, only the backside. And I very vaugely remember...some marking...yellowish...maybe...on the head...or... neck. I personally have only seen it twice and did not get a chance to really check it out. Does anyone know what it may be? Would appreciate any info you have to offer.
> Jan


I would start a new thread here. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f32/
this one is about talked out.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Noahs helper said:


> Would like to see if you all could help me in identifying a bird that periodically appears in my yard (this year for the first time). I have checked my southeastern bird field guide, but no luck. Comparing the body structure to the guide, I feel pretty sure it's some type of hawk. And just before it lands, the feeder birds all take off like bullets, even the mourning doves move faster than I ever thought them capible! It flies in, sits on the fence or in a tree for 10 seconds, then flies off. It is approx 14" tall, with solid, medium brown, head back and wings. I have never been able to view the front side of it, only the backside. And I very vaugely remember...some marking...yellowish...maybe...on the head...or... neck. I personally have only seen it twice and did not get a chance to really check it out. Does anyone know what it may be? Would appreciate any info you have to offer.
> Jan


Jan...Without a picture it is a little hard to tell, but by your discription it does sound like it could be a hawk.


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

Sorry. I did. But I don't know how to delete this one.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

I have to agree these killing posts are not very informative at all , where does it show that he used any methods or deterent for these hawks at all  I see no posts where he tried fake owls , installing strobe lights, attracted crows or anthing about mounting mirrrors around his loft ,where are the reflective cds hanging from the trees to thwart off these attacks that happen time after time and where does it show once that he did anything other then wave his arms around ??? as a matter of fact I read that he even sent his birds back out into the line of fire when he lost other birds in the attempts on his flock ... so how is that helpful information to anyone who has pigeons trying to avoid attacks ??? Keeping your birds in for two days does nothing we all know that... everything Ive read so far just shows it all as if it were just an experiment of how long it takes to lose your birds in a hawk infested neighborhood are you rooting for the hawk or your birds here ? Even the way you dissed having a flypen as an attraction was just another excuse to me as we all know hawks are smarter then that ,they know you have birds weither you have a flypen or not as I have had hawks try to grab a canary thru my bedroom window before ..so tell me what it was that attracted him there.. This post isnt to degrade anyone here but where does it show any helpful info to a new flyer,I see no trying for protection at all here... yes flying your birds is a wonderful thing when they live thru it...just my last two cents and I will write no more on the subject here.


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## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*I'm done with this discussion, thanks*

yup i know what a patent is...just thought it funny.... charge folks who help you to learn sooo much...lol = laugh out loud 
I did learn alot but then i try hard to glean worthwhile things from those with more experience. Biases can but don't always don't stop me from learning but I honestly almost left the site behind. Some need to ease up. It's all in the aproach and you'll never know how you've helped another at times but a good aproach most often means you were heard.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

*And so am I.*



Gille said:


> yup i know what a patent is...just thought it funny.... charge folks who help you to learn sooo much...lol = laugh out loud
> I did learn alot but then i try hard to glean worthwhile things from those with more experience. Biases can but don't always don't stop me from learning but I honestly almost left the site behind. Some need to ease up. It's all in the aproach and you'll never know how you've helped another at times but a good aproach most often means you were heard.


the patent was a metaphor there Gille....but now I see why you .."lol"...Glad you learned alot, you may be a person that is in the middle of the road, but some are not and they need to express their opinons too, should'nt scare you away now.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Gille said:


> It's all in the aproach and you'll never know how you've helped another at times but a good aproach most often means you were heard.


I agree 100%....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I'm quite sure that Rod would remember what he posted without someone having to dig up an old post. That's just shoving it in the guys face, IMO.
> 
> In the end there's really nothing we can do it's up to Rod to decide the fate of his birds, I say shut this thread down.


No. As I already said, they were simply making a point. That's their right. Let it go.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Actually...it's Rod shoving it on us thread after thread...month after month ...blow by blow and 2 threads within 24 hours.
> 
> You are right...there is *Nothing We *can do. Sucks...doesn't it?
> I do think your offer to build a loft for Rod's birds was lovely, kind and generous.


Actually Charis, it was ggoss1 who offered to build the loft.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Don't you guys think it's about time for someone to close the thread? If I were a mod, it probably would have been closed already. It's been a pretty heated discussion, and I'm sure someone's bound to get upset, if they haven't already. Besides, is there really anymore we can say in here that's productive?  I'm sure there will be plenty, plenty more hawk-based threads in the future to discuss in and learn from, but this one has done all the good it possibly could, IMO.

When a thread begins to become about one single person, instead of the real issue at hand, then it starts to go downhill. Regardless of whether that person should be discussed, or not.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Actually Charis, it was ggoss1 who offered to build the loft.


Thank you for the correction. That was lovely kind and generous of ggoss1.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Thank you for the correction. That was lovely kind and generous of ggoss1.


I thought so.


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## ggoss1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Can Someone Kill This Thread Please?????


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> In the end there's really nothing we can do it's up to Rod to decide the fate of his birds, *I say shut this thread down*.





MaryOfExeter said:


> *Don't you guys think it's about time for someone to close the thread? *


Yes, I agree. 

Cindy


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