# How many of us have learned "EYE SIGN"



## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

I am listening too much about the eye sign, am really interested to know that how many of us have tried using it or learned about the circles in the eye, or what does these circle means or represent ?


----------



## Dunn (May 23, 2011)

this is a very good question been wanting to know this my self


----------



## anabogos (Apr 30, 2008)

I think it's just like human eye colors, Doesn't mean anything at all in my opinion.


----------



## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

anabogos said:


> I think it's just like human eye colors, Doesn't mean anything at all in my opinion.


I hear micheal jordans parents were a pearl eye mated to a lavender eye


----------



## klondike goldie (Apr 20, 2009)

I hope everybody I fly against uses it, I hope they spend hours every day looking in the birds eyes.


----------



## Dunn (May 23, 2011)

can anyone explain the eye sighns ???


----------



## mikeyg (Jul 11, 2012)

Only thing I can say on this matter with really only a small amount of knowledge is my grandfather truly believed in then eye sign theory, and he raced birds for close to 35 years. I always remember all his pigeon magazines had a picture of the bird and then a close up of it's eye. I think the eye sign only gives you a glimpse into the type of bird it may be. He used to be able to tell, or at least thats what he said wether it was long distance, sprinter ect. but then again I can only go by what he told me when I was a kid. He always had an eye loop with him, and anytime he was buying a bird, out would come the eye loop.

I suppose like anything, it's a theory, and some people just tend to weigh more heavily on what they see in an eye, as opposed to how well a bird sits in your hand. It's been around a long time and lots of articles on it by well known pigeon fanciers, so there must be some validity to it.

I also know there are many phenomenal pigeon fanciers winning, that have probably never looked up close under magnification at a pigeons eye. Like some have already said here they hope those people spend all there time looking at the eye. 

Check out this link...

http://www.pigeoncenter.org/toppage13.htm


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Here is perhaps the best written article by a well known pigeon writer. I encourage you to visit his site and look at all of his articles. In order to keep this post short, I have pulled out the section of eye sign, but he covers a number of myths. And like all myths, there are those who want or need to keep this eye sign myth alive. 

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/myths.htm


Myths 

by Silvio Mattacchione

To say that the pigeon racing sport in North America, or for that matter, in the rest of the supposedly civilized world is steeped in myth, would be to utter an understatement-in fact, an understatement of grand proportions. Though most in the sport pride themselves on their knowledge of science, nothing is further from the truth. In fact, what most fanciers practice is pseudo-science, nay, in a sense witchcraft would be a more appropriate description.............


*Eye Sign 

One of the greatest myths that we suffer is that of eye sign in all its myriad forms, the perfect example of pseudo-science, quackery pure and simple in all its forms. Yet these charlatans will tell you how they have studied the great books on iridology, have studied eye muscle, motion, etc. They bamboozle you with anatomical details with their own better system that is more foolproof (than that of all the other quacks). Then they deliver the coup de grâce, "You know, I have handled 100,000, 200,000, 500,000 pigeons in my lifetime-more birds than you have every seen." Well, now, does that not prove their theory is correct? Yes, this no doubt is science. What I find amazing is the further assertion that these self-same wizards can remember-if not the eye of every bird they have ever handled-at least 50% of all the eyes of all the birds they have ever handled. Imagine 50,000 to 250,000 eyes committed to memory when the rest of us poor mortals find it hard to remember, describe, and illustrate the colors of the eyes of our wives and children! Oh, yes, but then we do not proclaim the special attributes that these pigeon Grand Pooh-bahs do!

So on this note, let us focus on an article that appeared in the Daily Telegraph on Friday, October 19, 1984, in Australia. Why Australia? Because, for those in the know, the Australians are great eye sign aficionados. The title of the article was Pigeon Breeder Admits Fraud. The personages involved do not matter, other than to say that one was an author who had published a well-known work on eye sign-a work that many, many follow and attempt to apply. Oh, what a tangled web we weave! I have a much more descriptive word, but for now, as you can guess, eye sign is what I would call the mother of all pigeon myths. For every winner of a race with perfect eye sign-as practiced or defined by any supposed expert-you or I or we collectively can point to a thousand that have the same attributes and are totally worthless! The reality is, without critical information on background or family, the experts' opinions are just that-groundless, subjective opinions. And as they say, opinions are like another piece of anatomy of which we all possess one. As far as eyes are concerned, here is what is important: All pigeons should have at least two for maximum performance.
*
Other Theories 

Well, what other myths are out there? We all have heard of the wing theory. The other night I heard about the dominant left- or right-tailed theory. I have also seen grown men discuss, the closed upper palate theory as well as the step theory, the tail like a one feather theory, and then the back theory, the vent theory, and the pull-your-beak theory, to mention but a few.......


----------



## mikeyg (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, what other myths are out there? We all have heard of the wing theory. The other night I heard about the dominant left- or right-tailed theory. I have also seen grown men discuss, the closed upper palate theory as well as the step theory, the tail like a one feather theory, and then the back theory, the vent theory, and the pull-your-beak theory, to mention but a few.......

All this is great info Warren thanks so much. It sure makes me think, what was my grandfather thinking, was it a combination of things that made him so good. 

Since I have gotten back into homers again I have to say every bird I have went to look at it I pretty much get the same response from them. They open both their wings and show me how they have a strong back, or they grasp at it's beak saying if it fights back and is spunky it will be a good bird, or like you said the old vent check. 

Is there any one thing that makes a pigeon a winning pigeon, or is it simply in the stock plain and simple


----------



## mikeyg (Jul 11, 2012)

I just read that whole article, that is awesome stuff. i have never heard it put the way Silvio did. I think I just learned a valuable lesson from that small little article...THANKS!!!!


----------



## calzephyr (Dec 22, 2009)

This subject has been hashed over many times in this forum.

Smith Family Loft has posted some great points concerning "eyesign" in the past. Below is one of those posts:


*Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft *


Also another fancier who most have heard of, he has won more then a couple of races ! 

http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/

From

Articles by Ad Schaerlaeckens



WHY?

'Why', I often wonder, do foreign pigeon people not ask about results when buying birds? They want good results themselves but when buying birds they want names and strains. And… not to forget they want pigeons with special eyes: Colourful 'rich' eyes, so-called breeding eyes. 

Why do they like pigeons with rich eyes? I don't know.

*What I do know however is that scientifically the eye means nothing. Again in America pigeonpeople are crazy about 'eye-sign'. *
The fact that we even do not have a Dutch word for 'eye-sign' means enough.

Good birds. That's what pigeonpeople all over the world are after. But if foreign buyers would know about the (poor!) results of some famous European names their eyes would pop out. But their eyes would even more pop out if they would know about the sensational results of fanciers whose names are completely unknown to them! Whose fault this all is? As I said before: The media, the press! One of the reasons that I said 'okay' when Mr Lin asked me to write for him in this magazine is that I consider it as a duty for every man who writes about pigeons and pigeonsport to open the eyes of people who have been brainwashed too much in the past in this materialistic world.


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Being from a pigeon family,my Uncle Joe,my Dad,I have received a few HINTS,on how to pick out a good pigeon...When holding a bird in hand,how does it feel...Nice rounded shape,a keel you can feel a little of,not to sharp,not to shallow,a vent close to the keel,it will not move when you push a little side to side,a rich colorfull eye,no matter what color,a nice expression of the head which shows intelligence,a nice wing,with good ventilation of the last 4 flights,that are almost the same lenght,and a step in the wing that is where the primary and secondary flights meet(long distance pigeons),and a closed upper palate....I put the palate in for last because my father said that,"If you expect to win a hard race from 400 to 600 miles,the pigeon must have a closed palate...I have a picture of one of my dad`s 3 time combine winner,from NYC,where the birdage was always in the thousands....If my dad said,you must have birds with a closed palate to WIN long distance races,with a HEADWIND,I beleive him....Also,when I have a pigeon that was 5th overall,with only 12 day birds from 500 miles,and HE HAD A CLOSED SLIT ALL HIS LIFE....He died at 14 years old !!! I have handled 500/600 mile winners,and all of them HAD A CLOSED SLIT !!! Imagine that !!! Now lets have a little schooling about body functions....While I am typing here,my MOUTH is closed,and I am breathing through my nose...If I start running up and down the stairs,I OPEN my mouth to get more air to my lungs....So the pigeon with a closed slit,while doing NOTHING in the loft,breathes through his nose,with the CLOSED slit...While racing,when more air is needed to the lungs,he opens the slit,to get more air...Thus,if a long distance pigeon,he makes it easier for himself,and he conserves energy...A pigeon with a open slit,when in the loft,doing nothing,cannot improve on his breathing,so he/she gets tired faster,which in HARD RACES,never gets home to win,or even be home in racetime....Now,I`ll wait for the unbleivers to claim i`m crazy...But I have never seen/held a WINNER,from 500/600 miles,on tuff races,that did not have a closed slit....Alamo


----------



## luckyloft (Oct 21, 2006)

Really great reading all around, thanks to everybody who posted the articles.I enjoyed them all.I had one of the best flyers in my club tell me the only eye sign he cared about was if the bird had 2 eyes that worked that was all he needed to know.He also made comments close to what Alamo said.He had the best long distance birds in the club. Jeff


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Not a big fan of eye sign. Watched a few videos, but could not see any good science in it. All the data is qualitative. I can measure race results. With eye sign its all about how pretty and correlation and sparkly things. If it had validity, guys that believed in it would be winning every weekend. I do believe a bird should have two and they could be healthy.


----------



## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

I have study the eye sign and found it quit interesting, however I can not say I am true believer in eye sign.there is more signs in a good qaulity bird then his eye. I have seen good birds with good proven results, and they have breed good offsprings and have also proven good flyers, and have none of the signs that they mention in looking for the so called perfect eye!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

The lure of any kind of "marker" which would show you which ones are the "right" ones, is a fantasy that every serious pigeon fancier wished he could discover. And I am afraid, that some poor souls want to believe that they have been instilled with some kind of gift, which will give the fancier a clue as to which are the keepers. I think followers of "eye sign" have found something which gives them comfort, but no measurable edge. Perhaps the answers lie right there in the DNA, but I don't think we know what genes we are looking for. The technology is not there. 

Regardless, if enough people want a "pretty" breeding eye, whatever that is, then I am sure "pretty" eyes could be incorporated into the selection process, just like one who breeds show birds would do. So if you have two equal race birds, and only have room for one, then keep the one which has the "pretty" breeding eyes, and then you have covered all the bases.

Course, then why stop there, might as well breed the throat you want, the tail you want, just go right on down the laundry list of things you can see, and put that on the list to select for, like tails, wings, vents, etc. etc. 

Now that you finally have that "perfect" looking pigeon, if it can't win races, then what good were all the things that were selected for ? And if you come upon a pigeon which wins every race it is entered in, or nearly so, then breed from it, and don't worry about all the things on the "list" which says the champ bird should look like this and this, etc. etc.

In fact, it is my contention, if one places enough selective pressure on the colony by way of performance measurements, then all of these academic discussion topics become somewhat irrelevant, because the basket should be making the selections. Over time, the basket can not lie. Instead we yearn to find a quicker and simpler short cut to racing pigeon fame. To date, I don't know any fancier that has really hit the big time, and can attribute the winnings to the fancier's "eye sign" interpretation skills. 

If there are such gifted people, then I figure their skills would not transfer to me anyway. I am just going to have to train a bit more, race a little harder, and just do it the old fashioned way, just going to have to work at building it.


----------



## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

So there is no one, who actually learned the "EYE SIGN"

When i started keeping pigeons, i always watch the old fanciers looking closely into the eye and saying "that is a beautiful bird!!" or vice versa, all the people usually do that, i didnt know what actually they were looking at or if they know anything about it or not, or just copying their seniors. Every single peron used to do that. 

I know its a old topic on this forum and debated or may be critized so many times, from what i have read in different previous threads. All what i heard here is that "Its B*** SH**", so i was really curious to know if there is any "eye sign Fan", but i guess people dont really value it and they have reasons for it. 

I have read alot of articles on this topic, even talked to pigeon experts. I took pictures of my breeding birds like you have seen on their websites. i shared it with a friend of mine to tell me my best birds, you may be surprised to hear but what he told me by seeing the pictures was all true. 

I shared it with others on different forums but no one believed, and was even asked to prove it with results. I couldn't because i dont race and only do it as a habby but i know my pigeons and i know the best and worst of them, so i just stopped talking about it and even reading these things. 

Never wanted to start a debate or critize any one here but just what i have experienced. Its a myth yes, but in my opinion it tells you the quality of your bird but what if the others have better birds in the race!!!

Just an opinion


----------



## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The lure of any kind of "marker" which would show you which ones are the "right" ones, is a fantasy that every serious pigeon fancier wished he could discover. And I am afraid, that some poor souls want to believe that they have been instilled with some kind of gift, which will give the fancier a clue as to which are the keepers. I think followers of "eye sign" have found something which gives them comfort, but no measurable edge. Perhaps the answers lie right there in the DNA, but I don't think we know what genes we are looking for. The technology is not there.
> 
> Regardless, if enough people want a "pretty" breeding eye, whatever that is, then I am sure "pretty" eyes could be incorporated into the selection process, just like one who breeds show birds would do. So if you have two equal race birds, and only have room for one, then keep the one which has the "pretty" breeding eyes, and then you have covered all the bases.
> 
> ...


I don't know how many other skills you have but i know that you can explain things very well

I have been in touch with an Eye expert for a long time and leanred alot of things from him, he was as generous as you are, I like to read all your posts here and am thankful to all your replies


----------



## mikeyg (Jul 11, 2012)

Agree, listening to Warren explain things is refreshing. When he does post a reply, I am intrigued to hear what he has to say. 

Actually he reminds me so much of my Grandfather it's kinda scary....

And that's a compliment to you Warren!


----------



## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

mikeyg said:


> Actually he reminds me so much of my Grandfather it's kinda scary....
> 
> And that's a compliment to you Warren!



I agree, you are absolutely right

Pigeon sport here is still conventional and if you say that is there is no such thing like "eye"sign", person you are talking might take a good look at you

People here usually give much importance to the eyes when buying a bird. A simple white eye is given much importance than a colorful eye, like this one


----------



## tick and twitch (Sep 26, 2012)

The tail sign trumps all!!


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

mikeyg said:


> Agree, listening to Warren explain things is refreshing. When he does post a reply, I am intrigued to hear what he has to say.
> 
> Actually he reminds me so much of my Grandfather it's kinda scary....
> 
> And that's a compliment to you Warren!



Since this thread, I have had some local "eye experts" look at my 2011 Winners Cup Champion, and guess what ?!? Yep, I just knew it !!! He has what may be described as the Mother of All "Breeders Eye" !! 

Now, that this matter has been put to bed, I am now a huge believer in eye sign now. Especially when these guys were going oh my gawd...oh geez...this is unbelievable etc. etc. The price has now gone up $15,000 !! )


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Which one are you?


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The lure of any kind of "marker" which would show you which ones are the "right" ones, is a fantasy that every serious pigeon fancier wished he could discover. And I am afraid, that some poor souls want to believe that they have been instilled with some kind of gift, which will give the fancier a clue as to which are the keepers. I think followers of "eye sign" have found something which gives them comfort, but no measurable edge. Perhaps the answers lie right there in the DNA, but I don't think we know what genes we are looking for. The technology is not there.
> 
> Regardless, if enough people want a "pretty" breeding eye, whatever that is, then I am sure "pretty" eyes could be incorporated into the selection process, just like one who breeds show birds would do. So if you have two equal race birds, and only have room for one, then keep the one which has the "pretty" breeding eyes, and then you have covered all the bases.
> 
> ...


I must say, I agree 100% with peoples comments regarding your ability to explain things well and this post backs that up tenfold.

I have not studied eyesign but could not agree more with what you have stated, I love the last part, *Train more, Race harder*, along with the previous mention of *strict selection*. Best advice anyone can give


----------

