# Pancreatitis?



## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
I recently lost a beloved female pigeon to cancer of the oviduct. I brought her in last July and she was diagnosed with egg yolk peritonitis. We began twice daily injections of Claforan. She seemed to get better but she would swell up. The fluid wasn't being absorbed internally so the doctor had to drain her each time we went in. After a couple of months, we switched to Pip injections twice daily but the time in between the drainings became shorter and shorter. Every time she was drained, she looked like a brand new bird. Happy, flying everywhere, eating, drinking, etc. The last time we took her in, we had drained her and she looked really good. We decided to have the doctor do surgery to see what was continuing to make this fluid. The surgery lasted about 14 minutes and he said that when he was stitching her up, her little heart stopped. My heart was broken. I can't believe she's gone.

Fast forward about a month. We have another rescued pigeon and she suddenly slowed down her eating and has been "resting on her belly" more often. My thought was that she probably needed another hormone injection. I dropped her off at the doctor's office to have him check her and he did a blood panel and gram stain, gave her a Doxy injection and another hormone injection (last one was a month ago). He was worried it was egg yolk peritonitis. Anyway, I went home with Claforan and we've been injecting her twice daily since last Friday and waiting for the results of the bloodwork.

Just listened to my messages from today and the animal hospital called to say that her amylase was sky high and the thought is that she has pancreatitis. He wants to repeat the amylase test in a week.

Has anyone had this happen to their pigeon? What is the usual outcome? I looked on the internet and everything scares me - possible pancreatic cancer or gallbladder cancer, etc. I just can't go through losing my other beautiful pigeon and friend.

She's certainly eating again - which is great - but she's still doing a lot of laying on her belly...not all the time, just now and then. 

Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is a thread regarding some oviduct problems:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, Published by Wingers, 1994 and available at www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com
...it says that pancreatitis isn't usually found when they're still alive, it's usually found in a necropsy. It may be caused by infections from other organs that spread to the pancreas. It can be acute (fast and mean) and may occur due to a high-fat diet and being overfed. 

The symptoms are lack of appetite, lethargy, weight loss, excessive thirst and urine output, abdominal fullness and pain. You might get bulky and pale poop. It would show up on a CBC with a biochemical profile, including the pancreatic panel. An X-Ray might show a hazy, fluid filled abdominal area. Treatments include fluids given by needle and broad spectrum antibiotics. Sometimes a corticosteroid is useful. Enzymes (from plants) can be added to food to help with digestion. Vitamin E and selenium can be helpful. Zinc toxicosis may be the cause so it's good to check that, too, like if the bird ate a staple. 

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For you to have two such similar incidents makes me think that either you've got some bacterial or other pathogen running around there that's your ultimate cause; there's a deficiency (what's the timeline on the second bird); or there's something about the hormone shots that's a problem.

Pidgey


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Thank you for pointing me to that information Pidgey. I also found something online that I printed "Acute Pancreatitis in Parrots". It all makes me so nervous and scared.

Her stool is more mucous like but still the same dark green and white color...except it has color in it now and then from the ZuPreem fruit pellets. 

I am praying that we will have caught this early. I just glanced over at her and she's on her perch - standing! Her weight is fine but I do notice that the crop area seems a little enlarged to me.

I just hope the doctor can narrow it down. It was so hard treating our other female pigeon for months and months and even that was only helping briefly.

I just reread your last note Pidgey. I didn't think the two illnesses were similar but perhaps I'm wrong? Tommy's initial diagnosis was egg yolk peritonitis but after the surgery, he sent the tumors in for diagnosis and they indicated it was oviduct cancer which caused the egg yolk peritonitis.

Scooter's initial diagnosis is pancreatitis. Both of the birds are female and they've been laying eggs. Tommy (the one that passed away) had been treated a few times with the hormone injection and Scooter's first injection was at the beginning of December. Have you heard of this causing problems? 

I'm going to sign off and get to bed. I'm so nervous about this. I hope I can sleep and get through the next 4 days. Scooter's appointment is on Monday.

Thanks again.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2007)

Happygirl,

I don't want to delve too deeply into what is going on right now. You have enough to worry about but I would like to ask you a couple of things. Basically, why are you using what I assume to be Lupron injections?

The thought occurred to me that if your two hens were laying eggs and you immediately took them away, they would lay replacement eggs thereby depleting their calcium among other possible problems and giving your vet the impression that the birds were doing excessive egg laying. I don't claim to know if this is what is happening but just in case, I wanted to ask you if you're removing the eggs as soon as they laid them? Again, I'm making assumptions that perhaps should not be made but if I could take this one step further and suppose that if your current bird were laying too many eggs and an infection developed in the oviduct, it's conceivable that it might spread to the pancreas.

Lupron is not known to cause pancreatitis so this is probably two different and non-related situations.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2007)

Happygirl,
Did the blood panel include a test for diabetes which is directly related to the pancreas? Do you know if the white cell blood count was high?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Happygirl,

I am so sorry about your loss of the first pigeon. I lost one that I had only had for a day to anaesthetic and that was bad enough, losing a well loved pigeon must have been devastating.

I am also concerened about the use of Lupron, unless there is chronic egg-laying that is causing a problem. I found this article on the internet:

_D03ZO-150, White Oak Conservation Center, 
Dr. Linda M. Penfold
“Effect of the GnRH Agonist Leuprolide Acetate on Reproductive Hormones in Racing Pigeons”

Description:
Reproductive diseases, such as chronic egg laying, are common disorders encountered in companion birds. Some disorders can be managed by changing the light cycle length, lessening the bond between owner and bird, or changing diet. However, when these modifications fail to resolve the problem, medical intervention is warranted. Lupron is becoming the most commonly prescribed drug for treating avian reproductive disorders, but it appears to have variable results. The drug reduces hormones associated with the disorder, but the physiological effect of the treatment is poorly understood. The investigators are measuring Lupron’s effects on reproductive hormones in pigeons.

Accomplishment:
The investigators determined that Lupron did not have a suppressive effect on hormone levels in male or female pigeons, and the birds continued to breed and lay eggs. These findings were consistent with the variable results of Lupron that have been observed in avian practices and may indicate that this popular drug cannot sufficiently suppress reproduction in a bird when it is administered during the breeding season. Future studies will investigate whether Lupron may be more successful in preventing, rather than treating, reproductive disorders when given before the onset of egg laying._
I have 80 rescue pigeons, mostly paired so roughly 40 must be hens and replace the eggs. Only one of my hens has had oviduct problems, she was treated with Baytril and two years later she is fine but barren. Could you consider seeking a second opinion?

According to my book (Problem Droppings Explained by E.D.W. Harper M.R.C.V.) the droppings of a pigeon with disease of the pancreas a would be large, pale and and resemble coils of biscuit meal. This would happen when the pancreas fails to produce the enzymes to digest carbohydrate starches. The bird would eat voraciously, specially maize, but would lose weight. He says that where pancreatic disease is suspected it can be recognised by adding a drop of iodine to the droppings , which turns the starch back and that short term support can be provided by adding powdered panreas enzymes ( I don't know what they are called in the US, here in the UK they are called Panzyme) to the water.

I hope your pigeon is recovers soon.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about your beloved pigeon.

I have had issues of egg problems with my hens, they seemed to occur only when the hens are laying too frequent and elderly. We replaced their eggs, but they would fall to the floor and they would start the cycle all over again. 

We have re-designed the cubbies and added barriers to the front, as we realized the importance of protecting our hens by allowing them to sit dummy eggs to full term, at least 18 days before they start again. Even though our couples sit on dummy eggs, and we know there are not going to hatch, we do know that this not only prevents a population explosion, but protects the hens in the long term from egg related issues. It is also important to maintain their weight, and make sure they get plenty of calcium/magnesium and other minerals. 

If pancreatitis has been diagnosed, I would add for my birds to include, in all minerals and trace minerals (calcium/magnesium) ( I give some of my hens a 1/4 of an alflalfa tablet once every few days), but make sure your bird gets some digestive enzymes, proteolytic, and including pancreatin. These will aid in the absorption of fat, and aids in reducing inflammation. Vitamin B complex with pantothenic acid and niacin, is needed for anti-stress and fat and carbohydrate metabolism. 

I would also include an antioxident (cancer prevention, DHLA- with Resveraltrol) as well as natural antibiotics such as echinacea to aid in case of infection, as well as a drop of coilloidal silver down the throat. If the bird goes on any heavy duty antibiotic when infection is part of the problem, like Baytril, make sure to include kefir or other type of probiotics, once course of Baytril is done.

A garlic capsule a day would be very beneficial, unless there is a tummy upset. It is a wonderful natural antibiotic, with some added beneficial side-effects.

If diabetes is suspected, follow dietary guidelines, as well.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

happygirl said:


> Thank you for pointing me to that information Pidgey. I also found something online that I printed "Acute Pancreatitis in Parrots". It all makes me so nervous and scared.
> 
> *Her stool is more mucous like *but still the same dark green and white color...except it has color in it now and then from the ZuPreem fruit pellets.
> 
> ...


Mucous in the stool of a female bird is not something that you want to see. They can certainly get an enteritis and discharge it from the intestines but it can come from the oviduct as well. I wouldn't personally bother with Lupron (or similar hormones) shots just like has been mentioned above in others' posts. I vaguely remember somewhere that it didn't work too well on pigeons but that's so fuzzy that you'd need to run it down.

Anyhow, in Tommy's case, it's probably a lot harder than you think to run down the primary cause and which came first between the cancer or the peritonitis. Many cancers are caused by chronic inflammation, especially around epithelial tissues. Many are also caused by chronic hypovitaminosis and mineral deficiencies, too. That particular pathology isn't an action that we can easily directly watch, though... and it's always an "alleged" kind of deal, when cited after the fact in a specific case. We do believe, though that many cancers begin this way and our belief is somewhat derived from statistical lab analysis. 

My vet for this kind of thing would seem more sloppy during the surgery itself than, I think, many would. However, there is definitely a method to his madness that is probably pure genius. He operates the gases (we're using Forane, here) during the surgery to alter the anaesthetic plane... well.. "in flight" actually. He wants to see the bird responding very faintly to various things (ligation, cutting) in order to know that she's not too far under and to vary that plane depending on what he's going to be doing next--he's always adjusting the knob. 

Think of an "anaesthetic plane" as a level of consciousness--get that plane too low and your heart stops beating because you're just too sleepy to care anymore; get it too high and you're going to care (and kick) too much. Most people's impression of general anaesthetics are that they're used for the patient's comfort. That's not the real reason--it's for restraint and to keep the body from going into a fatal case of shock, which is more a function of the mind than the body per se. In the books, it gives numbers to adjust the gases to and, I suppose, many might do just that. It's an art, though, to tailor the general to the patient especially with a non-human patient without all the monitoring hookups. No one can know, by the way, why little Tommy's heart stopped on that table but my personal feeling would be that he'd slipped too low for his condition. I understand your sense of loss all too well as we all do, here.

But there are other causes for oviduct problems like infections that sneak up and in like E. coli and whatnot. What I was more worried about was that you've got some other primary cause and that these two occurrences have the same ultimate, undiscovered beginning.

Pidgey


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Thank you everyone for your kind words and information. I'm just so nervous and sad right now. 

She's on the chair back next to me - belly down - with her eyes closed. She'll fly around the house and peck at dust or the carpeting but when she stops, she's usually laying down. 

Tommy was laying too many eggs and we'd try and leave one in but most of time the shell would break. She got to the point where she had internal scar tissue that showed up as a bump where the tail feathers start. Our vet did an xray and saw that her body cavity was so full that her lungs were sort of pushed out of the way. It was just terrible but she sure acted normally except when the fluid began to build up. As soon as it was released, she was fine again but it kept continuing and more frequently. I can't believe she's gone.

Scooter was laying egg after egg as well and we tried a fake egg and that worked for a while but she got disinterested which we though was good but a couple weeks went by and another egg appeared. The vet thought the December Lupron injection would hopefully last a while but he also mentioned what you said - that it doesn't seem to work as well on pigeons. 

The only thing I know - as of now - is that the blood work showed a sky high level of amylase. I'll find out more information on Monday when we bring her in. I just can't lose her. 

I feel like I've caused both my beautiful birds to have all these problems because they've bonded so much with me. They follow me here and there (unless they're intent on picking at the rug). Scooter is almost like a cat in that she'll sit in my lap while I'm working on the computer and if I stop petting her, she'll tap my hand with her beak. With the egg laying issue, I asked the vet where it's safe to touch her as I usually kiss her beak or head and pet her back. He said all those places are where the male touches the female. He said the chest was probably ok. It's hard to be aloof with her.

With the Claforan injections, will that normally make the stool loose? My husband noticed that she has some undigested seeds in her stool and the green stool I see, looks stringy as well.

All this stuff seems so frightening to me. I want her to get better. If it's really pancreatitis and not something else, how long does it take before the bird starts to feel better? I'm glad she's eating, but I would be much more happy to see her not laying down so much. 

We do use a mineral powder that I sprinkle over her food and we also use liquid calcium in the water along with vitamins. We use ZuPreem pellets as well.

Now I'm anxious again. I hate taking Xanax but I have a tendency to get panic attacks and I usually wait too long until my palms are sweaty and my heart's racing. I'm going to try and get my mind on something else now.

I do VERY MUCH appreciate everyone's comments. Pidgey - I understand what you're saying about the anesthesia. I hope Scooter won't have to get to that point. I hope she will start getting better soon. We were planning on going out of town (had tickets for about 6 months) on the 24th of this month to visit my folks but now I think we'll have to cancel. 

Take care everyone.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The Claforan is just a parenteral (by shot, either IV, Intramuscular or Subcutaneous) cephalosporin, like Keflex. It's actually Cefotaxime, I think. Anyhow, it's not likely to mess with the intestines much being given parenterally. It would be more likely that the stools are loose due to the pancreas not working properly. Essentially, it means that digestive enzymes aren't getting into the intestines to help with digestion. That usually renders digetions quite incomplete.

One of the things that it said to do for pancreatitis in the pages that I gave you the link for was to not let them have any food for three days. That way, the enzyme output of the pancreas backs off. That's important because the amylase is capable of digesting and otherwise ruining the pancreas. There are a few different ways that the pancreas can be compromised but shutting down it's activity is one of the ways to help. When feeding resumes, you can feed stuff that will reduce the burden on the pancreas like special enzymes to do the job.

If the pancreatitis is of bacterial origin, then you need a bacteria that's going to get it although you're shooting in the dark most times so the widest possible spectrum or combo to effect same is a good idea. Obviously, the vet felt that the Claforan was up to the task. I really do like Keflex.

So, you ought to ask your vet about taking the bird off food for the 72 hours and also contain her so that she's not flying around burning energy that she may need right now to fight this thing. If you need to keep her in low light to help keep her calm then so be it.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I feel like I've caused both my beautiful birds to have all these problems because they've bonded so much with me.


You certainly haven't caused this. Whether they are tame or wild, bonded to a human being or mated to another pigeon the whole focus of a pigeon's life is to lay eggs and perpetuate their species. 

CYnthia


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,

We had another Amaylase test done this past Monday and it went from 2,413 down to 60! The doctor was amazed at how well she's done with Claforan. Last Friday, I picked up Metacam as I thought she might have an upset tummy and we began giving that to her but yesterday when they called to report the good news, they said we could stop the Metacam but continue with the Claf until it's finished (probably another 10 to 12 days).

The one thing that still bothers me (and I'll be calling tomorrow) is that she still spends a good deal of time resting on her belly. When Tommy was still alive, Scooter was always moving - she could never stand still. They didn't get along too well - especially when I'd first let them out. Scooter would go after Tommy and I'd have to separate them but when they flew into the living room, they were fine being out together investigated different things.

Now, with Tommy gone and having gone through this bout of pancreatitis, she seems different to us in that she rests now and then - belly down. I just put her back in her cage with the heat lamp on and right now she's acting like her usual self - pecking at her seed, drinking water and playing with newspaper but when she's out with us, I'll find her resting belly down or standing on one foot. I know her Amylase level is great but I'm still concerned about this and I'm not sure if it's a delayed reaction to Tommy or if it's something else. 

One other note about the original blood test - the doctor said her white blood cells were fine and so was the liver so he said he didn't believe it was cancer - and I remember him saying something like if it had been cancer, usually they don't last more than a couple of days. 

As far as her stool goes, it's still a bit mushy but the doctor thinks the Claf could also be causing this - and I'm not seeing any undigested seed in the droppings so that's also good.

We have plans to go out of town soon and my husband thinks I'm too nervous to leave her at the vet's facility. I just need to understand about this new behavior. If I get an answer for that, I'll be fine. If not, I'll be worried about her while we're gone.

Just looked at her now and she's standing on her perch with one foot up and her eyes are closed. Of course the heat lamp is on so maybe she's really just relaxing? Sigh. I wish she could talk to me.

Nancy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got a lot of birds that lounge--we call it "hunkering down". Some of them out in the loft will even hunker down to one side up on the rafters of the loft and oh-so-casually survey their kingdom. I couldn't tell you how to tell the difference but both those behaviors (standing on one foot and hunkering down) are what I'd consider to be normal.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

happygirl said:


> Just looked at her now and she's standing on her perch with one foot up and her eyes are closed. Of course the heat lamp is on so maybe she's really just relaxing? Sigh. I wish she could talk to me.
> 
> Nancy


Sounds like a comfortable and relaxed pigeon to me!

Terry


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks you two. I think when my husband said "I think you're going to be worried the whole time we're gone" put a bit of fear in me. I just need to find out whether or not they let the birds fly while they are staying there and whether they are able to "watch" the behavior. Once I find that out, I think I'll be fine.

Thanks again....so much. I needed some encouragement. I think I need a bit of a break but it would be horrible to be worried the whole trip. I think my husband worries if I worry...I'm sure don't mean to rub off on him that way but I guess after 20 years of marriage, perhaps that's just how it goes.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
I took Scooter in for a follow-up on Saturday as she's still moping around and she started to slow down her eating too.

He took more blood and, on the way home, she vomited. Got home and she didn't eat the rest of the day. She didn't eat Sunday either or this morning.

Got the bloodwork results back today. The amylase is back up again so her pancreatitis is still acting up. When we drop her off to board tomorrow morning, he's going to give her a Dex injection (guess that's a steriod). I hope that will start her on the road to permanent recovery. He may have to do an xray while we're gone.

I didn't realize that they have to anesthetize the bird for an xray. I sure hope she'll be ok. They keep telling me to relax and not worry.

In the meantime, I had an very anxious work day, topped off with my husband calling to tell me Scooter's amylase was back up so I had to take a Xanax at work. I HATE taking any prescription drugs but I know myself. I was already getting out of control with sweaty palms, rapid heartbeat and a crying jag so I figured I'd better get a handle on it. It's a .25 mg tablet but it did help finally. I hate feeling so weak like that. I guess it's because I don't have any children and Scooter is it. At the vet's on Saturday, she leaped for my shoulder and sat close to my face. It sure makes me feel good that she enjoys being around me. 

I wondered if anyone else has had a pigeon that developed pancreatitis. What was the routine? Antibiotics followed by steriod ?

Take care,
Nancy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pancreatitis as a subject hasn't appeared on here very often. I just did a search and it's been mentioned in association with avian flu, undigested seeds in the stool (http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5737&highlight=pancreatitis) and chocolate poisoning. Frankly, it's pretty rare that anyone gets that detailed of bloodwork done on a pigeon on this forum.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, is Scooter a... well-fed bird? And just out of curiosity, you're not giving her too much calcium, minerals or vitamins are you? Sometimes, too much of any of those in the diet is about as bad as too little. There's something else about that on here somewhere lately but I just can't remember where...

Pidgey


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
We went on vacation and got back last weekend. 
During that time, Scooter stayed at the vet's office and got the run of the Iso Room apparently. I had asked that she be allowed to fly a couple of times a day so they gave her that room to explore!

In any event, during her stay, she had 4 blood tests and they switched antibiotic to Pippicillin (spelling?). The Amylase had gone up on the first test. 2nd test showed that it was at about 1800, 3rd test was about 1500 and 4th was about 1200 something. Near the end of our trip, they said she was losing weight (when I dropped her off, I told them she had stopped eating) so they gave her another hormone injection and that got her appetite back to normal. They didn't notice her laying on her belly much and seemed to think she was doing quite well.

I picked her up last Saturday and have been watching her all week. She's still laying on her belly. Either she has adopted this new behavior from the initial bout of pancreatitis or she's become more mellow. If it's not either of those, then something is STILL bothering her.

The vet told us to continue the shots for another week so tonight will be the last shot. Our next follow-up is on Tuesday morning. I'm sure he'll do another blood test. All the other bloodwork is normal.

I've calmed down somewhat but I sure would like to get this figured out once and for all. If the Amylase is up again, I wonder if the doc will do an xray. That scares me to no end.

She's a wonderful bird but I sure have to be careful handling her. I can set off her "breeding" instincts so I try to ONLY pet her on her chest. No head or back petting. I want her to be extremely healthy and live for a very very long time.

Pidgey - to answer your question - Scooter gets about 1/4 to 1/3 cup (I'm not real good with measurements) of ZuPreem pellets. I put a tiny bit of mineral powder in with the pellets and some grit. In her water, she gets vitamin drops and calcium (maybe 1/8 tsp of the liquid calcium)?

I've tried giving her different types of food that others have suggested but she doesn't seem interested...except in whatever I'm eating and I tend to eat a lot of cereal with a tiny bit of milk at the bottom (which she does NOT get).

Please send prayers my way for Scooter's illness to be over and done with. She is really a blessing to me. Our parrot (double yellow head) really wants nothing to do with me. Once he matured, he selected my husband as his best buddy. I move too fast, talk too fast, eat fast, exercise fast, whistle, sing, etc. Waaaayyy too much activity for Pepe. We also have two cockatiels (brothers) that do NOT like to be separated and 4 canaries (one is a senior citizen with arthritis). Scooter is my dear sweet one...follows me around everywhere.

Take care,
Nancy


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,

Guess What??!! The vet's office called today to tell me that Scooter's blood test on Tuesday came back normal. Her Amylase level is 636. The doctor said that the normal range is between 100 and 700 so that's great news. He said to watch her like a hawk. 

I've noticed that her eating has slowed down but she was a bit overweight (434 grams) on Tuesday when he weighed her. They had given her Depot Provera on Feb 2nd and that stimulated her appetite so I'll keep an eye on her.

All I can say is that her behavior has changed since getting pancreatitis. She still continues to fly around the house but she really gets comfortable everywhere. Right now she's on top of the door laying down. Other times, if I'm reading on the sofa, she'll lay down beside me. Perhaps she's maturing. In any event, I'm going to relax and just keep an eye on her. We have another follow-up appointment on Friday 3/2 and I'm sure he'll do another blood test just to make sure everything is still ok.

Phew. I was really worried. I just could not lose another beloved feathered friend. Her feathers have felt many tears of worry fall on them but the kisses surpass all that.

Nancy


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thank you for the wonderful update, Nancy!!

I am sending LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES TOWARD HER CONTINUED IMPROVEMENTS!!

We'll be watching for future reports!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great news. Thanks for sharing.
Please keep us updated.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Nancy,

I'm glad to hear Scooter is doing better.

Thank you for the update.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
After getting the good results on the Amylase last Thursday, I watched Scooter carefully. I had mentioned to the vet's office that day - that she wasn't eating and they said that she was overweight on her last visit - most likely due to the Depot Provera that was still in her system (they gave her an injection on 2/2) so not to worry. 

She did NOT eat anything all weekend and I was watching her this morning and noticed her having dry heaves. Just clear fluid came out. She's not pooped much at all. She just drank a bit of water and vomitted up the liquid.

I'm waiting until they open at 0900 and then I'll see if I can get her in. She's not acting sick in any other way (as usual). She's preening and looking around at everything.

The only other thing I've noticed is that she's in full nesting behavior. She wants to nest everywhere- on the shelves of our bookcase, on some towels in the bathroom and in my lap and keeps nudging me to pet her so I've had to keep her in her cage. I think she's due for another Depot injection since she doesn't quite get a full month out of it but I really don't like to see her vomitting and not eating. It scares me.

I don't know what's next. I have a tendency to start imaging the "what ifs" so I can't let my mind run away with that right now. After months of injections of two kinds of antibiotics, I would have hoped her pancreatitis would be gone. 

I'll post when I find out more. I'd appreciate prayers for Scooter again and I'll try and control my worrisome thoughts so they don't snowball into a panic attack.

Thanks,
Nancy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Personally, I don't think I'd let her get any hormone shots.

Pidgey


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Pidgey,

It seems to me that the pancreatitis started shortly after she got her very first hormone injection at the end of last year.

When we were on vacation for those 2 weeks, by the 2nd week, they told me she had dropped quite a bit of weight and wasn't eating so they gave her the Depot Provera and then she got her appetite back and started eating.

If we don't give her the Depot shot, what can they give her so that she'll start eating again? I'm assuming the vomitting must signal that her pancreatitis is acting up again.

This just gets so confusing to me. I'd rather she NOT get the hormone shot but I'm afraid of her getting egg yolk peritonitis which Tommy had. Our vet is well respected and I highy value his recommendations. I'll mention to him that this whole business started shortly after the first Depot shot.

Thanks,
Nancy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm kinda' lucky in that I have several good avian vets close at hand. One isn't particularly an avian vet, but he kept and raced his own pigeons for a long time so he's got an awful lot of experience with pigeons. Big-time pigeon racers have sent him birds to be operated on from as far away as California (this is Tulsa, OK). When I asked him about Lupron shots once, he said I'd have to talk with Dr. Paul Welch on that one, which I haven't done yet.

What I think I read in between the lines is that he wouldn't use them, for whatever reason. I blanched when I read "Depot" shots because of some of the weird things they've done to people. Honestly, I'd try to go natural for quite awhile and I'd be willing to let the bird lose weight while doing so. I'd resort to tube-feeding if I had to, but I'd doggone well give it a try.

Pidgey


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Pidgey,

Funny you should mention that Depot XX does funny things to people. I had endometriosis for years and had multiple laporoscopies which didn't get rid of it. The doctor finally put me on Depot Lupron to put me into menopause in an effort to get rid of the endometriosis once and for all. I was supposed to get 6 shots - once a month (that was the max for some reason). I ended up getting 5 and after the 5th one, I had my very first panic attack that lasted for 3 days where I couldn't eat, I was constantly crying, heart racing, palms sweating, etc. etc. Two things about that - it still didn't get rid of the endometriosis and now, to this day, my anxiety can get out of control if I'm not careful.

All that, to say that I agree. I'll talk to the doctor about this. In the meantime, she's vomitting - although I just let her out of her cage a bit ago and she flew up to one of the office shelves. She's probably in nesting mode but she's quiet and I don't hear the "dry heaves" sound. 

It's hard to watch her vomit and not eat. I need to get past "myself" and perhaps let her get through it naturally. 

I'll keep you posted. Thanks so much for your input Pidgey. I appreciate it.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,

We took Scooter to the doc today and she had dry heaves almost all the way there. He checked to see if she had an egg in the makings. She didn't. He also checked her weight and she'd dropped down from 434 grams to 380 grams.

I asked him about whether Depot Provera could have somehow caused the pancreatitis and he didn't believe so. He feels she's had a bad case of this pancreatitis and perhaps the injections were stopped too soon so we're back to 3 more weeks of giving her twice daily injections of pippicillin.

By the way, he said the Depot Provera not only works on the hormones but it's also a bit of an anti-inflammatory. He gave us his thoughts and we decided on another Depot Provera injection. We started the pip injections today as well. We're supposed to follow-up in 3 weeks unless she's still not eating in which case we'll go right back.

She's been pretty quiet this afternoon and evening and she's resting on her perch until I look at her and then she bats her wings and coos.

Nancy


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
Just an update....
It's the end of the second week and Scooter seems to be eating just fine. Her poops are huge and watery and pretty frequent. Could be the pip antibiotic causing that.

Sitting back here with her, I see that she's standing on her perch with her eyes closed and every once in a while it looks as if she's burping. Do pigeons do that? She makes a very soft brhp sound - kind of low and gutteral. I thought it was something outside and I turned to look at her and noticed that she was making the sound and when she did, her upper body looked as if she burped. 

I've not noticed this before. Have any of you seen this? She's stopped doing it now so it's like when we get the hiccups or burp. Very interesting.

We've got one more week of shots to go and then we see the vet on the 19th. I really hope that this 3 week period will have resolved this pancreatitis issue. 

I hope everyone and everybird is doing well!
Nancy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the update, glad to hear that your pij is doing better. Yes, they 
are capable of passing air throught the same orifices that we can and good 
for you it was from the head. If passing alot, perhaps a result of the medications but because you are to return to your avian vet this is something
I would add to your list of questions/concerns. 

Good luck at your next visit!

fp


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
It's Sunday March 18th and we've noticed that Scooter has dropped off on the eating again. Seems to be a pattern after about 3 weeks plus a few days. Luckily we see the vet first thing tomorrow so I'm hoping he'll be able to put together a good plan as I can't figure this all out.

I just looked at her paperwork and her last Depot Provera shot was on 2/26. The time before that was on 2/2 then before that it was 1/5. 

I'll post after her appt tomorrow morning.

Hope everyone and their feathered chums are doing well!

I'm also going to post if there's a General Pigeon area...want to get input on "housing requirements when birds are inside"


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
Just got back from Scooter's appointment. He seems to think she might have an egg yolk leak as he said that the Depot Provera doesn't last very long with her AND it doesn't quite stop her egg production - as the last time, she still laid one egg. He thinks it's the egg yolk leak that's causing her trouble. He gave her another D.P. injection slightly increased dosage from before and he said for us to continue the Pip injections twice daily for another week then stop and see how she does. Hopefully the increase in the D.P. will help and we won't see her start to vomit like I did this morning. It was more like dry heaves as nothing came up. He said to expect that for a bit but then she should start eating once again like before.

He mentioned surgery but said he'd prefer trying the increase in the D.P. and we'd really rather not do surgery ever again after what happened to my little Tommy.

So there it is. I'll be praying that this increase in the hormone dosage will do the trick. She's roaming the house right now so I'd better go see what she's up to. I think I'd better keep her in her cage today. I asked the doc if I should move her cage when I'm working from home as she sees me the entire day (which might stimulate the hormones since she thinks I'm her mate) and he thought that would be a good idea. I'm thinking I'll try a towel over the one side of the cage first.

I hope everyone is doing well.

Take care.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

*Scooter - another visit...*

Hi All,
We've gone approximately 18 days since Scooter's last hormone injection and this past Wednesday (2 days ago), I noticed that her eating had slowed down. Yesterday she barely touched her pellets. Her feces still has green color with some white although not near as much. I've got an appointment for her at 3:30 tomorrow (Saturday). 

I'm disheartened that she didn't even get to the 3 week mark with the increased dose of the hormone injection.

I'll post after her appointment tomorrow. We are so fearful about any kind of surgery since our Tommy didn't make it through hers last year.

Hope everyone's precious feathered ones are doing well.
Nancy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the udpate, Nancy. I'm sorry Scooter is having difficulties again. I hope the upcoming vet visit will be able to help.

Terry


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Terry and All,

Today is Monday April 16th. Here's the update. We saw our wonderful vet on Saturday, April 7th. She was slowing down her eating habits but when we got there, she made a liar out of me and started eating again. 

Since she had received her last hormone injection 19 days earlier, I wasn't sure what to do. I had started moving her into another bedroom when I worked from home and I also covered her cage around 3:30 in the afternoon for the rest of the evening. I'm trying everything - also probiotics in her water.

In any event, we decided that since I was about to have surgery (it was on Friday 4/13), both my husband the my vet said we should go ahead with the hormone injection so I won't worry. At least I know she'll start being consistent with her eating.

He was saying that a lot of birds would not dare show that they don't have an appetite but with Scooter, she feels so at home that it doesn't matter. I doubt I've described what the vet was trying to explain but it made sense to me at the time!

Now here's the skinny. Since my surgery Friday morning, I've not had any hands on with Scooter. Not even let her out of her cage since I can't run after her or reach up high for her. DH has been cleaning all the cages.

Today I felt a little better after my post-op appt and sat down at the PC in there to check something. I didn't move her cage as I was only going to be a minute (famous last words) but I heard this shaking business and it scared me. I thought she might be vomitting. Turns out she was taking a bath in her water dish! I also took a good hard look in her cage and noticed............FIRM POOPS!!! Unbelievably good looking poops. I am amazed. Now I did let her out as I knew she'd want to lie on towels in the sun but when I picked her up from the towel to put her back, she sure feels light to me. She's eating up a storm every day but she feels feather-light. 

In any event, this is all good news. I will continue to maintain the 'aloof course' with her so she keeps down this wonderful healthy path.

Take care all,
Nancy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Happygirl,

Glad to hear that you are so pleased w/her 'new' poops  ....probiotics will
do wonders for them in general but perhaps this is part of an overall trend
towards improvement in her life. Also sounds pretty normal that she felt
like taking a bath and dove into the drinking water. As things warm up and everyone in your household is feeling a bit better, perhaps she can have even more dips in water and sunning time to dry off.

I hope your surgery went well and you have continued good health in your family.

fp


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
I haven't posted in a long while. We're still taking Scooter to the vet for her hormone injections. At one point she went almost 6 weeks in between but this last month she only got to 3 weeks a 2 days before needing her shot. Her poops have been real runny and dark dark green plus she hasn't been eating the last couple of days (which usually signals to us that she's in need of her hormone shot). The vet suggested we go back to the Pipp injections and he said that if we don't notice any improvement on the 3rd day, to let him know as he can change the type of antibiotic. We'll also give her Metacam for her tummy as I saw her having dry heaves this morning. 

Other than that, she's a wonderful, sweet little companion who I love very much. I just hope that she'll outgrow this monthly ritual of needing the drug to stop the egg yolk peritonitis. We did another blood panel today to check things out.

Take care all,
Nancy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the update.
Hope the need for the hormone shots will settle eventually.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sure hoping all the best for Scooter, Nancy!  

Sending Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, certainly, standing on one foot does suggest they are feeling better, or feeling good-enough, to do so...verses, prefering not to stand at all, or, standing 'heavy' on both feet because they are too weak to stand on 'one' Foot...


Just-a-thought...


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Nancy, thanks a lot for the update. I think it is wonderful Scooter is still doing pretty well despite having those monthly shots. I hope you can keep us posted from time to time because her situation is a little unique and we can all learn from what she is going through. I know the great care you give her means a lot in her life.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
We're still taking Scooter for her hormone injections. The last one was on November 12th so it's only been 3 weeks and 2 days. Her last complete blood panel (taken on 11/12) was normal so at least that's a good thing. Yesterday I saw her having the dry heaves so we began the oral metacam to see if it would help her tummy. Just a few minutes ago, I saw her vomit clear fluid so I know I'd better get her in there tomorrow if the metacam isn't working. She stopped eating about 2 days ago. Her poops are back to being very runny and very dark green - almost black. It's so dark that it's almost like a dye. I have to really scrub at the carpet with a clorox wipe in order to try and get the green color out.

Oddly enough, except for the vomitting and the stool being runny/dark, everything else about her is the same. She preens, she wanders around the house looking for those special 'tidbits' in the carpeting, she perches on top of the doors - hunkering down and closing her eyes, etc.

I wish there was something else we could do for her. I think it's my presence that is causing this hormonal problem. I try not to pet her but that's really hard. I usually try petting her chest as the vet said the males touch the females heads and backs so I don't want to "start anything" but even if I look at her, she'll start that little bit of wing twitching which tells me she thinks it's mating time. Does anyone else have this problem with their female pigeons? Sigh.

~Nancy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Nancy,

I'm so sorry Scooter isn't feeling well again.

I know sometimes it is a curse for a hen pigeon to "fall in love" with their human. To my experience it is always best to keep them sitting on their dummy eggs as long as possible, the problem is us humans can't share the incubating duties as the hen would like, so they lose interest anyway.

The only other alternatives I can think of, is surgery or change in diet.

Get her on a diet that will keep her desire to breed down to a minimum, and I know that is quite a challenge, as it is instinctual.

Perhaps putting her on a diet with increased barley, less protein might help. Protein increases their sex drive, and barley does the opposite. 7 to 8 percent protein is adequate for the rest period. I know this has been discussed before, sorry if I'm repeating myself.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Thank you everyone for your continued encouragement and kind words. She went the full 4 weeks this time but I noticed on Saturday that she was slowing down her eating and she had started molting. This is the third time she's done this at the same time the eating slows down. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not. The vet's office said they've seen many birds who are going through molts more frequently than before.

Anyway, on Sunday she had a few "fecal samples" in her cage so I figured she was still getting some seed down. On Monday morning she vomitted up clear fluid and had the dry heaves later. Our appt was Tuesday and he did a complete white cell panel and gave her the hormone injection as well as sent us home with Pip to do again (we've used Pip on her before). They called yesterday (Thursday) and said that her reactive lymphocytes (I think that's it) were quite elevated but they said, other than that, everything else was ok. So it's as if she's fighting off something.

Could that happen with a severe molt?

Anyway, today is Friday so it's been 3 days and I haven't seen her eat but there are still spots of dark green feces at the bottom of the cage. Just now, she was wandering around the living room pecking at the rug and I sat down with a large container of nuts (almonds). She wandered over so I put the container on the rug and she tried to get into it! I took her seed dish out of her cage and put it next to the large container then took an almond out and put it into her seed dish. She immediately picked it up and tossed it aside (too big) then she pecked at a small seed and then had the dry heaves.

I can't figure this out. I know that in the past, it's taken a few days before she starts eating and - doggone it - I'm so disgusted with myself for not making good enough notes on EXACTLY when she starts eating after the shot. This may turn around over night and I surely hope so.

I called the vet's office a bit ago (getting anxious again) and they said if she's still not eating tomorrow morning, we should drop her off and they'll tube feed her. Won't she just vomit it back up? I hope it won't come to that but I know birds can only go so long without food. 

She's always done pretty well once the hormone kicks in. I'll try and relax about this.

I'm afraid to do exploratory surgery because of what happened to Tommy. She had the same DX but her condition was more severe because we kept having to drain her. She made it through the surgery but then her heart stopped. I don't want to lose my Scooter.

I'll post next week to let you know how things are.

Take care,
Nancy


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,

Good news! Saw our vet on Saturday and he tube fed her some rice cereal. Showed us how to do it and gave us the rubber tube (we already had the large syringe). He felt that the pancreatitis was acting up again so he sent us home with Claf (meaning we'd stop the Pip and start the Claf) and Dex (for inflammation - 3 days only).

She vomitted up a bit on the way home but later that night, we were able to give her more which she kept down.

Sunday morning I was typing on the computer and her a sound from her cage. She was digging into the seed dish was vim and vigor!!! YIPPPEEEE!! Since then, she's just about back to normal. I expect her "fecal samples" to begin firming up after the antibiotic course has been given. 

I'm very relieved and glad to have my sweetpea back to normal.

Take care,
Nancy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update, Nancy. I'm glad the bird is feeling some better and showing interest in food again! Please do keep us posted.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Bless that bird's heart, it sure has been a roller-coaster ride, hasn't it?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

That is great news. I am so happy for you.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Glad to hear she's improving! That must be quite a relief for you!

I always give several days of probiotics after birds have been on antibiotics, to help restore the good gut flora. With all that Scooter has been through, this may be helpful.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Everyone,

I haven't posted in a while but wanted to let you know that Scooter is still getting her hormone injection and a Dex injection (for inflammation). This last time she went a full 6 weeks! That's always good. 

We're hoping she'll go into menopause sometime soon and that will stop the little egg yolk leak that causes her pancreas to act up. 

At the moment, she's just doing beautifully - scarfing down her food with delight!

Just wanted to update everyone on her condition. She is so precious to me. I'm blessed that she's doing so well.

Take care,
Nancy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update, Nancy! I hope Scooter will continue to do well. Please do keep us posted!

Terry


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

*Scooter fell*

Hi Everyone,
ON August 15th, we brought Scooter in because she wasn't eating much. The doctor gave her a Dex injection for inflammation.

On Friday August 22nd, Scooter fell trying to reach the top of the bathroom door. I think she's just not quite had her full energy. She seemed ok but Saturday morning she looked VERY lethargic and listless. I had to do a drop-off at the vet's office and he seemed to think that the fall caused a bit of internal bleeding. Her checked her red cell count and it was pretty low. He recommended we give her a week's worth of Vitamin B complex injections and also change from Claforan to Pipp. In addition, her gave her the hormone shot.

On Tuesday morning we were in tears as she still looked very lethargic and was vomitting up water. We were very scared and thought this was it. Our appt with the vet was at 11:30 and I was nauseous wondering what was going to happen. He checked her red cell count and it was going up! He also said the Amylase was now normal as well. He said it can take a bit of time for them to recover after a fall. He said that she's probably feeling very uncomfortable (she's been standing up it seems for days) and we're wondering if the crop area is the injured area because she's not wanting to eat but she does drink water however it seems to come up.

My DH lowered the perch in her cage to about 6" from the ground and I just turned around and I actually see an amazing sight! She's resting her belly on the perch - she actually had enough strength to jump up and her belly must be feeling a tiny bit better since she's resting her weight on it. 

I'm just praying that she'll start feeling comfortable enough to eat soon. I'm going to be leaving to visit my parents on Friday and I know I'll be very anxious about her welfare while I'm gone.

I hope everyone's "feathered kids" are all doing well. It's so hard when they are sick and not feeling well. 

~Nancy


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Sure hope this signals an upswing in Scotter's health. You have done an incredible job supporting her!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Here's hoping all is well from here on out with Scooter. Please keep us posted.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I pray too, that she is doing much better.


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
Scooter is finally trying to recover but in the midst of all this, our vet feels that she had a little stroke as she can't use her right wing. It hangs down a bit - it's not broken but it's like her right side is a bit paralyzed. When she comes out of her cage (and I have to take her out as it's on a stand), she'll want to do the usual "shaking off the tension" and only her left wing moves up and down a bit but not the right wing. My husband has taken to doing a bit of physical therapy with her - he massaging the muscle under the wing there and slowly and carefully pulls the wing out to the side. The vet said that was actually a good thing to do. 

In any event, I wanted to tell you about the new antibiotic we gave her for about 3 weeks or so - Amakacen (not sure if that's the correct spelling or not). He felt she'd become immune to the Claf and the Pip so he switched her to Amakacen. Her white count dropped from 20,000 to 12,000 and went from 5% toxic bands of heterophils to NONE and her red cell count went up to 60 (it had been around 30). Today they did another CBC panel (we've been going in about every week), and her red cell count was 46. I worried about the drop from 60 to 46 but they said that 50 is the norm. He did say that she originally had 2% monoctyes which he'd like to see as NONE but we'll see what today's test shows. We've been giving her a break off the antibiotics and the B Complex shots but we'll see if she still needs more time on them.

Her pancreatitis is ok so far but I have noticed that she's eating a bit less the last couple of days. If I don't see improvement, I'll probably ask for a tech appt on Monday for another Depot Provera shot. It's been 4 weeks since her last one. Sometimes she'll go 3-1/2 weeks and sometimes 6 weeks. I never know. I just hate to let it get to the point where she's vomiting up clear fluid. 

I would really love to see her active again. She moves around the living room, bedroom, kitchen but sometimes disappears under a table. I'm sure she must feel some vulnerability not being able to fly right now. 

By the way, while I was on vacation and my husband was giving her the shots, etc., she turned into "Daddy's Girl". The minute he walks into her room, she does the fantail dance for him and starts the cooing. I feel so jealous now ;-) 

In any event, we're keeping her going. Our vet said that a lot of times birds - especially pigeons - can overcome these strokes but it may take a couple of months. I sure hope she'll be able to fly once again. I know she'll probably always have the pancreatitis/egg yolk peritonitis leak but we're trying to do everything we can to make her as comfortable as possible. She is just a beautiful, loving little feathered girl.

Take care all,
Nancy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you for the update, Nancy. I hope things continue to go well for Scooter and that she will regain the use of her right side. Amikacin is often used by one of the avian vets here in the area .. in fact, I think it is his drug of choice as an antiobiotic for birds.

Terry


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

*Scooter's Depressed*

Thank you to everyone. I am blessed to have your support here.
This afternoon Scooter had a follow-up with our wonderful vet and he felt that her weight, although it dipped a bit lower, is still ok. He said most pigeons in the wild are a bit on the light side (I think she was 280 something). In any event, she had her Depot Lupron (or is it Provera? I can never remember), on Monday so today she was eating once again but her overall condition seems to be that she's very depressed. 

When she's in her cage, she stands right in the corner sort of hunched over. When she's out of her cage, she'll go straight for something that covers her like underneath the coffee table or Pepe's cage (our parrot), or the dining room table. She's not actively pursuing the 'tidbits' she usually looks for in the carpeting and along the baseboards and in the kitchen. It makes me so sad to watch her. 

The vet suggested that my husband begin giving her the B complex injections again and that may help in two ways. Perhaps she's missing the handling and love that he was constantly giving her when she was getting the antibiotic shot, the B complex shot and the oral metacam so Scooter will be getting the 'B' boost and the attention all in one.

My husband asked if it was ok to divide the dose of the 'B' shot and give it to her twice daily and he said that was fine. That way, she gets that special bonding time twice a day. She still runs from me which really hurts but I'll get over it. I just want her to be happy and healthy. It's hard to see her hiding and looking so despondent. Of course I'm sure that she's also reacting due to the fact that she still can't fly. 

We're just trying to keep her healthy without having to do any kind of surgery since our Tommy girl died during hers. 

I hope everyone and their "kids" are doing well tonight and will enjoy some treasured time together this weekend.

Take care,
Nancy


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,

Scooter's last CBC panel looked really good. No monocytes, 46 was her red cell count and 5000 was the white cell count. She stopped eating again 4 days again so we're tube feeding her rice cereal and she does well with that. It's only been about 2 1/2 weeks since her last hormone shot so we don't want to give that to her quite yet but I'm going to call my vet tomorrow morning to see what he thinks about the ongoing tube feeding.

In any event, Scooter still seems a bit depressed not being able to fly and I'm so sad for her. I was hoping she'd regain her strength in her right wing by now. I don't know giving her something for depression.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Thanks,
Nancy


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi All,
Scooter vomitted up her rice cereal last night so we called this morning to see if they had an opening this morning with a technician instead of waiting until her appt tomorrow. They had an opening so we got the Depot shot and the Dex shot. She was down to about 280 today. The vet took a look at her and suggested we switch to Pipp injections instead of Claf.

This afternoon I had an idea as I sat eating a saltine cracker. I smashed up one in a little dish and she started going at it like nobody's business! Tonight she's doing it again so she must be feeling a bit better. I'll feel even better once I see her eating her seed mix.

This sure has been a constant rollercoaster. She has not regained her ability to fly so she still has some depression going on. I keep hoping she'll miraculously improve but I think we just keep fighting that egg yolk leak that leads to the pancreatitis. We're afraid to get any surgery done because of what happened to Tommy. It sure does a number on the emotions.

Hope all of you and your soft feathery friends are doing well.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the additional updates, Nancy. I'm sorry you're not getting many replies, but I'm not sure any of us have anything to suggest even though we are wishing the best for you and Scooter. Please do keep us posted.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

happygirl said:


> Hi All,
> Scooter vomitted up her rice cereal last night so we called this morning to see if they had an opening this morning with a technician instead of waiting until her appt tomorrow. They had an opening so we got the Depot shot and the Dex shot. She was down to about 280 today. The vet took a look at her and suggested we switch to Pipp injections instead of Claf.
> 
> This afternoon I had an idea as I sat eating a saltine cracker. I smashed up one in a little dish and she started going at it like nobody's business! Tonight she's doing it again so she must be feeling a bit better. I'll feel even better once I see her eating her seed mix.
> ...




Hi HappyGirl,




I know various of the resident Pigeons here love a mashed-dry Saltine or Ritz Cracker...so I mash a few every day, for whoever wants some...and it disappears very quickly.


Cravings for Salt, are either a reasonable natural craving, and Birds need some Sodium Chloride, same as anyone.


Too...cravings for Salt, can be a disguise-confusion, of actually craving Potassium, or, of Potassium or other electrolyte levels being too low.

This in itself - eletrolytes/potassium too low - can occasion nausia or lethargy...or worse.


Excessive drinking, where, a Bird is wishing to flush their system, can deplete vital trace minerals and electrolytes...as can system-flushing from some Medications being metabolized and excreted where more than usual Water intake is needed.


Medicines which effect the Kidneys, will of course potentially complicate all this...


'Amikacin' apearently is particularly dicey in this regard, as for blood-levels and length of regimen having to defer to the individual Body's ability under-the-cirucmstances to regulate it's factors in which the Kidneys are involved...or, the drug can damage the Kidneys, thus adding to whatever complications as are already on-going.

Some info here -

http://www.rxlist.com/amikin-drug.htm



I do not know if supplimental electrolytes would cushion the narrow margain which 'Amikacin' has for safe use...but, if thisdrug is to be used, maybe donsider to run that question by the Doc.


Now...if I understand correctly, this Pigeon had an Egg break internally? and or a broken Egg leak out of a ruptured-perforated Oviduct? And, debris has remained inside the Abdomen, but outside the Oviduct, and, is thought to have been causing a chronic Bacterial parentonitis? For which the 'Amikacin' has been being used?


Or...?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Also...



Worms...Yeast issues in the Crop...Canker in the Crop...can cause regurgitating Crop contents...of course...


Antibiotic regimens can invite yeast problems...as can formula-feeds, pro-biotics too soon after Antibiotic regimens course, or things which have caused the PH of the Crop to shift too far alkaline.



Phil
l v


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Phil,
Boy that's a lot to digest (so to speak) but I thank you for your post. 

I believe our vet has said the initial problem was an egg yolk leak. He never felt that that an egg had been broken internally so I believe it's the latter that you mentioned "broken egg leak out of a ruptured-perforated Oviduct". This has led to pancreatitis.

Every now and then when I feel that she's showing signs of being uncomfortable (not wanting to lay down or beginning to lay down and then popping back up the minute she gets close to putting her abdomen down on the ground) or she gets into a squatting routine (looks like she wants to push out an egg) or if she's vomitting clear liquid, we immediately bring her in. He does a physical check and then he will do an Amylase test and/or CBC panel and the Amylase level has been very very high at those times. With the various antibiotics we've used, it's brought the Amylase level down to normal and eliminated the toxic bands of heterophils. 

Over the years, we've used Claforan and Pipp but he suggested Amakacin this last time.

On top of that, the hormone shot is to keep the egg yolk leak at bay. I'm not sure how it works (other than shutting down her ovaries as I've had that drug myself for endometriosis years ago) but when she begins to eat less and then stop, I know it's time for the shot. 

It's a very complicated circle and we get very frustrated. We're doing all we can without having her undergo surgery. It seems like we've been going to vet more than once a month....especially with her latest problem. It was quite serious with the little mini-stroke so we had to have weekly follow-ups and quite a few blood panels done.

Yesterday and today she seemed to have a new attitude. We've started taking her cage from the stand in the back room and we move it to the floor in the living room and then leave the door open. That way, she can walk right out and wander around. Yesterday we were both in the bathroom chatting and noticed that she had wandered into the back room and was standing in the doorway watching us. She seemed to be less vulnerable as she wasn't immediately 'running for cover' - in other words, she was more curious and social. We hope it's a good sign. 

Tonight, I came in from the garage downstairs and my husband was working downstairs. We were talking and noticed Scooter had come down 5 steps towards us. I got really nervous as I didn't want her to fall so I raced up the stairs and she began to jump from one step up to the next all the way to the top. I was amazed at how well she balanced her body with only the one wing giving her lift off. 

I just pray that we will continue to be able to care for her. I have a feeling that the monthly cycle of hormone shots and constant watch of her Amylase level will be ongoing. 

I wonder if there is pet insurance for problems like this?

Best Regards,
Nancy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nancy,




Well...my own experience with possibly related issues is limited...but, I can tell you about it.


Not long ago, got in a feral Hen...looked like quite an old Pigeon...a little 'light' weight-wise...not feeling good.


She had a fistula near her Vent, up from her Vent..fistula was about the diameter of a Pencil, or a little more...and it was clogged with crushed, small fragments of well formed Egg Shell...


The Feathers around herVent and around the fistula, showed dried clear Albumen.


The Shell Fragments were somewhat adhered together with dried Yolk material.



Anyway...got the opening of the fistula cleaned out...went 'in' then into her Abdomen with Haemostats and removed lots of Shell and solidified Yolk debris...flushed this interior twice-a-day with a saline-antiseptic solution...clearing out small old blood-clots and small debris with the flushing...


Fistula then healed up very fast...


Soon, she passed a large object ( about the size of a 'Jordan Almond' ) composed of Shell fragments and desicated Yolk.


There had beenno sign if internal infection...no odor...no inflamitory debris.



Soon she was feisty...active and put into free-fly pre-release, where in two days, she had a Mate...and has been looking splendid.


Now...what I would wonder with yours, is whether the Uterus/Oviduct had perforated for sure? Or...?



The Oviduct should clear itself of debris if an Egg had become broken before laying...or, if it had not had a healthy Shell form.


If there is infection in the Oviduct...then of course clearing itself might not occur.


If Yolk having leaked out of the Oviduct, is postulated to have occasioned a Bacterial pertonitis...effecting the Pancreas...the Uterus/Oviduct would have had to have perforated, by infection or other trauma...and or to have been itself, infected.


Can you say whether there was definite reason for supposeing that Yolk had in fact leaked into the Paritonium area? which of course would require the Uterus/Oviduct to have suffered perforation...?


And if so...where was/is the Egg Shell?


And or also...where is the Albumen?



Phil
l v


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

happygirl said:


> ...It sure does a number on the emotions...


Absolutely! You are doing a great job staying focused and open to where things are at the time. Hope things improve for her!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...further thoughts...



Any time there is a mis-adventure with Egg development or laying, there will tend to be two Eggs which we would wish to account for...either as fragments and liquid, or, as shell debris, Yolk and albumen.



I also recently got in a feral Hen, whose Vent was clogged with greyish-white finelynodulat calcium-like debris, glued together with what I took to be Albumen.


Anyway, I flushed the Vent's interior, also intending the flushing solution to enter the Oviduct if possibly, and did this a few times a day for a week...in order to aid the Uterus/Oviduct in clearing itself out.


In this case, I presumed the Oviduct to be infected, since no proper 'Shell' fragments were to be seen..and, where, instead, what would have been 'Shell' was a greyish-white granular material which had formed and was being expelled.


Since she hadbeen expelling this material for however long prior to ygetting her, I hadno way to account forwhat would probbly have been two Egg's worth of it.


She, as with my prior 'fistula' Hen...received 'DIVET' and 'Metronidazole'...and in both cases, this seemed to do nicely.


2nd Hen as of yesterday, is in free-fly pre-release and is doing very well. The debris-clearing having come to a seeming end some weeks ago...

Originallyshe was quite 'light' and pretty well 'grounded'...now is of good weight and strength.


I assumed in her case an infection interior of the Oviduct...with no perforation, where, all effected Egg debris ontaained in her Oviduct would clear out normally, once or as the infection was abated...and the Organ was able to resume it's usual vitality and occupations.


So...wondering then, with yours Nancy...where is or where went the contents/aterials of what would likely have been two Eggs...and...what evidence there is about it.




Phil
l v


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Phil,
I would say you have quite a bit of experience! I asked my husband to read your thoughts as he's the 'bird substitute doctor in the house' - gives the injections, tube feedings when necessary, etc.

Since this has been going on for quite some time, neither one of us can recall whether she had completely laid 2 eggs in succession the last time it happened. 

Your questions are very good ones and your treatment methods sound excellent as well as interesting. My husband asked me to print this out so we can bring it to our next vet appointment and ask him about this.

One thing my husband said was that we never remember seeing any egg fragments or albumen around the vent. Also, her stool is usually pretty normal except when she begins to feel ill and then it gets very loose and a very dark green. 

As of today, she's still eating up a storm. She's a little tired right now - closing her eyes. She loves the little light we have next to her cage. In fact, we leave it on all night as she sits near it. I hope that's ok. 

I really appreciate your posts Phil. I'm excited about the possibility of another non-surgical treatment for her. I'll post after we've seen the doc.

Have a good rest of the week all,
Nancy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nancy,




Well...if shell-material, either as granular-grey-white stuff arising from a malformed Egg via Oviduct infection...or boni-fide Shell Fragments oweing to Lord-knows-what having crushed two Eggs...along with a lot of glue-like Albumen and Yellow-Yolk material in either case..if these are un-accounted for...then one place to begin, is to decide whether there ever was an Egg mis-formation, or mis-adventure at all...


And, or, if there was, where did all that material end up?


Was she X-Rayed? ( intact but slightly bro9ken Eggs, or Shell fragments, in theory would show...)


And or do you know on what reasoning, the Vet had supposed her Pancreas to have become infected/inflamed oweing to 'Yolk' material causing a peritonitis?


And...how he supposed Yolk-material got out of the Oviduct to do so?


Which of course returns us to the question of where did the Egg Shell material and Albumen end up? 


I suppose it's possibly for some kinds of Oviduct infection, when located in the Shell-process zone, if able to remain there and not higher...that a Yolk and Albumen could pass through the Zone and not be attended with any Shell-material at all.


But...


Anyway...


I'd like to know what your Vet had understood or described to be his 'model' of this situation.




Phil
l v


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Phil,
I've been lax in posting. We saw our vet a while ago and asked him if he thought there had been an egg that ruptured internally and he said no. He felt that she ended up with a tiny leak in the cavity where the egg usually forms that, when the hormone shot wears off, leaks somewhere near her pancreas.

I'm not sure how that leak began and I doubt he knows. I just remember that she had been laying too many eggs and we were concerned because our other pigeon - Tommy - had done the same and ended up with egg yolk peritonitis and died just as they were stitching her up. She was far worse with a continual build-up of fluid that we had to drain frequently.

In any event, she is only getting 2 weeks out of the hormone shot so she may be getting immune to it. If she starts to need it after a week, we may have to increase the dose or find another hormone that will work...I hope.

She still can't fly but seems content enough to wander around the house. A few weeks ago we'd let her out in the morning then went to church, then stopped at the grocery store and Starbucks. Got home and I saw a "treasure" at the foot of the stairs and we realized that we had not put her back in her cage before we left AND somehow she got down the flight of stairs. That really scared me. I kept picturing her falling down the stairs so now we're extra careful to check and see where she is before we leave the house. That was a first and we hope it was a last! All that time without food and water :-(

Right now she's laying down relaxing with the lamp next to her cage. She seems to really enjoy that lamp - it's not really a heat lamp but it does put out some warmth and she usually sits close to it.

I hope everyone is doing well. We'll be into February on Sunday already! Not to rush things, but I'm looking forward to spring. Lots of baby bird sounds and sights as well as flowers budding/blooming.

Take care,
Nancy


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## happygirl (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to let you all know that we put Scooter to sleep last Thursday morning. She was constantly vomitting or having dry heaves and we had been treating her with antibiotics as well as Dex for inflammation but this time, it wasn't helping her like it has in the past.

Our doc was able to xray her without sedation because she layed on her back calmly (plus she was getting weaker) and we discovered her liver was twice the normal size it should be. Her stomach was being pushed upward and her gizzard was not in the normal position either. He felt she was having liver failure so we decided at that point that she was in too much pain. She was just not herself the last week and a half. 

We miss her terribly. It is very lonely here without her. We still have two cockatiels (brothers who do NOT like to be separated), two canaries (father and daughter) and our amazon parrot who is 21 but none of them were like Scooter or Tommy. I really feel that pigeons are such wonderful, kind, tender hearted birds. I miss kissing the top of her head, petting her silky feathers, seeing her wander around looking for us in the house, her cooing..... 

Give your sweet ones a kiss for me.

Take care,
Nancy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear about Scooter. At least she's not in pain now. Pigeons are great, and I know you will miss her for a long time. Sorry.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

happygirl said:


> Hi Everyone,
> Just wanted to let you all know that we put Scooter to sleep last Thursday morning. She was constantly vomitting or having dry heaves and we had been treating her with antibiotics as well as Dex for inflammation but this time, it wasn't helping her like it has in the past.
> 
> Our doc was able to xray her without sedation because she layed on her back calmly (plus she was getting weaker) and we discovered her liver was twice the normal size it should be. Her stomach was being pushed upward and her gizzard was not in the normal position either. He felt she was having liver failure so we decided at that point that she was in too much pain. She was just not herself the last week and a half.
> ...


ahhh, that makes me want to cry.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Nancy,

I am so very sorry for the loss of your beloved Scooter. My heart goes out to you. Bless you for loving her as you did.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry for your loss. 

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about Scooter, but I know you did everything you could. God bless you!


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