# Peggy Pigeon - Diagnosed with Canker - Beak Fell Off - Tube Feeding - NEED HELP ASAP



## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

A feral pigeon was given to me by a neighbor after being caught by a neighborhood cat.

At that time, Peggy was having difficulty walking and flying. Myself and co-workers provided Peggy with a clean cage, water and seed for approximately two weeks trying to rehabilitate to re-release her to her flock.

However, after the two weeks we attempted to release her, but she wouldn't fly away. She was a sitting duck for the hawk and cat. She couldn't fly.

Therefore, we cleaned up a room in our warehouse, and put Peggy in there to rehab. She was eating, drinking, pooping and starting to walk great, fly around; we were so hopeful.

Then one day we entered the room to find her with a swollen upper beak, she couldn't close her mouth. We rushed her to our veterinarian to discover she had canker. She was immediately put on Ronizidale (antibiodic) and Metacam (pain med) and I was given a Gavage Tube and syringe to begin tube feeding. This was 3 weeks ago. 

Unfortunately, the canker killed all her healthy tissue in her upper beak and it was de-breeded by the Vet. All the tissue was dead tissue, we knew the prognosis wasn't good for her upper beak. It fell off this past Saturday, October 4th. We have continued to tube feed and were advised to get wild game crumble and hopefully she would adapt to "scoop" feeding. Our Vet. said chickens have their upper beaks cut off to prevent them peaking themselves to death (poor creatures), but that they adapt and begin to feed.

The problem is Peggy is interested in her food because we see it is all messy, and thrown around, but when we go in the room she doesn't do anything in front of us so we have never really seen her eat. We bought a digital scale and saw she was only 7oz. or 200 grams, she had lost about 30 grams, and began the 2-3 tube feeds once again.

The problem is Peggy is fighting this so much, we must be hurting her, her throat must be inflammed. We feel so badly about this. 

The Vet. said it is time to stop tube feeding for 24 hours to help the swelling and see if she would adapt on her own. 

I don't want to put her through this stress anymore, but I hope she can scoop feed.

Has anyone ever had a buddy without a beak who could adapt, any suggestions on how to keep her alive while she tries to adapt.

I can't keep tube feeding her because apparently tube feeding is only for a short term solution. I don't want to cause her anymore pain.

I was also told by the vet. her beak could grow back, does anyone have experience with this? How long, will it happen, etc.????

Any help right away would be so much appreciated.

This situation is turning into critical and PEGGY NEEDS YOUR HELP.

Please help.

Thank you.

Moppasconi
Allentown, PA


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Mopp,

Is the canker gone now?

I've never observed tube feeding to be painful at all, even with lots of canker in the beak or throat, but I think it must feel odd for the pigeon to have the tube passed down the esophagus. So I don't think you're necessarily hurting her.

Pidgey has a bird with the upper beak missing. I'm not sure if that bird is self-feeding or not, but you could search the site for his posts about her (Ol' One Beak is her name).

I wonder if she could learn to use her tongue to swallow seeds. Have you tried hand feeding her seeds? You could probably put them on the back of her tongue, then watch to see if she can take it from there. I wouldn't let her go 24 hours with no food. Also, I've never heard of a beak regrowing. Has anyone else here?

Jennifer


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's the story on PIdgey's pigeon. Maybe something in the thread will help you? 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=26245


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Jennifer,

It appears the canker is gone, I no longer see any cheesy/yellow growth, but I don't know how long it takes to for the pigeon to be rid of this horrible disease. 

The Veterinarian is the one who said the esophagus can be irritated and swollen from three weeks of tube feeding 2-3 times a day.

I really hope I am not hurting her. She started really fighting this this past Saturday when her upper beak fell off. She kicks and bites and tries to turn her head, it is awful.

No, I haven't tried to hand feed her because she generally walks away from me.

I will try to do a search now.

Thank you so much for your time to reply.

I feel lost because the veterinarians in my area, Allentown, PA do not seem to know much about feral pigeons.

Thanks again.

Moppasoni


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I don't think a beak can grow back but I believe Peggy can, in time, learn to eat. However, you are going to have to hand feed her until she can eat on her own. Can she drink water?

Please go to the search box at the top and put in canker. You can review numerous threads on the subject and find the answers to some of your questions.

I would definitely weigh her everyday, at the same time each day, to keep a record of her weight. 

Thank you for rescuing Peggy and giving her a chance at life.

Sorry you had to join the forum under these circumstances but we welcome you and will help in any way we can. There are some members who have had similar problems and should be on later to add their input.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is a link to a short video by Cyro51 on hand feeding. This may help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow


This is another video by Cyro51 (Cynthia) showing how to tube feed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thank you very much for the reply and video.

Peggy has lost a lot of weight about 30 grams. She was 230 grams when we first took her to the vet. then 240 grams after tube feeding 3 times a day, but then we cut back to 2 tube feeds 8cc's a day when she started fighting the tube feed and when it seemed like she was eating.

Do you know if the can scoop feed with her lower beak??

I don't see her drink or eat because she won't do anything when we are in the room.

So, she doesn't need to crack the seed, I can just put seed in the back of her throat then?

Thank you for your help, I will go to the canker area.

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

I really need to get Peggy's weight up. I put a few seeds on her lower beak near her tongue and she swallowed them, I will try to teach her to hand feed, but does anyone know how much seed, and how often I should be feeding her.

Also, is it best to just grab a pinch and put it at the back of her throat or is there a better techique?

Thank you everyone.

Moppasconi


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## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

Add some high fat and high protein grains to her diet, even popping the seeds in her mouth if necessary. 
High fat seeds--flax-safflower-canary-oatgroats-sunflower

high protein grain---flax-safflower--canary--wheat--buckwheat-barley
and especially high protein is PEAS, Austrian/Canada/Maple & Vetch.

Keep weighing her every day and make sure she swallows enough to fill her crop 
reasonably full.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

just an idea, you may beable to get her a mash type food that she coud just eat and not have anything to pick up with a beak and it is complete nutrition feed. here is the link http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HPM05


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Check your e-mail. 




I did a search on "beaks" and found this: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=29797 There are a lot of pages to go through in this search but you may find more about missing beaks. In this thread, Terry's pigeon was missing the tip.


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Rainbows,

Thank you very much for your assistance.

It appears then I can just get high protein human seeds to feed her, rather than wild bird seed? 

Is that correct?

Thanks,
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Good Evening Spirit Wings,

Thank you too!

This mash type food is what was recommended by our veterinarian for the tube feed. Tube feeding was working fine for two weeks before she lost her beak this past Saturday.

Once that occurred, she has been fighting the tube feed ever since. It is now so hard to feed her just twice daily. She gags, tries to bite, turns her head and kicks her little legs. I even hold her neck extended and I have someone else holding her body (avoiding putting pressure on her keel bone). 

However, that is a great idea about putting Mash food in a deep dish for her to lick up and feed.

Thank you.

I will do that.

Moppasconi


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2008)

What kind of tube are you using to feed with? Is it the soft red rubber kind? Do you know what size it is? 

When I hand raised my first 2 pigeons from about 2 days of age, I didn't know the proper way to feed baby pigeons. I tube fed them for over 6 weeks. They weren't bothered by it at all, they would run to me with their beaks wide open for me to put the tube in lol. I don't think it's painful, it's more likely she's fighting because it feels strange and she doesn't like being restrained. You could try wrapping her in a little towel for the tubing.

Peggy's a lucky bird to have you


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for all the good advice given! Just chiming in to say that my bird that lost a good portion of the upper beak still is not self feeding though I'm reasonably sure s/he could if s/he wanted. I'll try to post back in the thread about this bird about something that I've not had to deal with before that may be of help to someone at sometime.

I haven't had a pigeon that had a problem caused by tube feeding, but I suspect it is possible.

Could you post some pictures of the beak area of this bird?

Thank you so much for doing all you are and continued good luck to you and the bird!

Terry


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks again Lady Tarheel!

I received a message to check my email, but I honestly haven't seen anywhere to retrieve mail. If I am missing your email, please let me know how to retrieve as I am a new comer to the site. Thanks.

Also, thank you very much for this new thread, I did see pic's of another bird with similar damage to its upper beak; however, Peg doesn't have anything left but a little nub of skin. I will take some pictures of Peggy tomorrow and upload for all to see.

I have another question for you, I saw in the hand feeding video you sent someone putting seed at the back of their pigeon's throat, but I don't know what they used.

Then, I was reading about a "shot glass seed goble" or "seed pops"??? what is this or where can I buy a little shot glass for seed??

Thank you again.

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Sasha008,

The veternarian gave me a stainless steel "gavage" tube. I do not know the size off hand. Again, Peggy was doing fine with tube feeds, but ever since she lost her upper beak this weekend, she started fighting it.

I will try the wrapping in the towel. Another good suggestion.

Thank you.

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Terry,

Thanks for taking the time to write me as well.

I surely will take some pictures of Peggy tomorrow for all to see.

Hopefully, this will provide you all with a better view.

Thank you.

Moppasconi


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Welcome to you and Peggy.  You can use any shot glass for the seeds, such as people use to drink liquor. Seed pops generally consist of 100-200 seeds hand fed to the pigeon, if I remember correctly. Time consuming, yes, but soon she should learn to be ready for it and sit still. I hope everything works out for her and you!


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi MaryJane,

Thank you.

If I may ask, I should be putting about 100-200 seeds in a shot glass and then putting to the back of her throat at one time?

How many times a day should I be doing this?

I apologize for all these questions, but I want to do the right thing.

Thank you.
Moppasconi


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## BirdDust (Feb 8, 2008)

I have a pigeon that I keep in the house that survived severe canker of the beak. The upper beak is so deformed that it lost the ability to open and close its beak properly, so it has great difficulty eating. However, it has adjusted to this by using it's tongue to pick up seeds, sort of like an ant eater. It does this by putting its beak into the seed cup, and fishing around until he can get something inside his mouth and swallows it fine. I use one of those plastic cups that butter comes in (15 0z size), and fill it half way so he can put his whole face in it, and toss the seeds around without spilling too much. He eats well on his own, but he will never be a "normal"weight. I make sure all his seeds and nuts are crushed, and add little seeds like flax and sprinkle the top with cornmeal for extra calories. Because he can never compete or survive living outside with my other pigeons, he has become a house bird and has done quite well. He also has a grit cup with the most smallest pieces that he manages well with too. He doesn't eat much, but then again, a house pigeon doesn't require the high calorie or high protein diet an outside bird needs to survive. Maybe your bird just needs more time to adjust to his disability, and will do good without any intervention at all.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I use a stainless steel gavage tube for little ones, and I have never had a problem with irritation or soreness. I use a #14 curved.

When you are doing "seed pops" you are placing a few seeds in the mouth by hand and letting the bird swallow them.

When you are putting seeds in a shot glass, you are HOPING that the bird will be able to insert the beak in the shot glass and pick up/eat seeds on its own.

You will get differing opinions here about the soft feeding tubes versus the stainless steel ones, so you will just have to decide on your own what is best for your bird.

You are doing a fine job with the bird, so just keep doing what you are doing and please keep us posted here. It IS important to know whether the bird is gaining, losing, or maintaining weight.

Terry


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## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

moppasconi said:


> Hi Rainbows,
> 
> Thank you very much for your assistance.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can buy human quality grains to feed Peggy. My suggestion is to start with a good pigeon/dove mix and add the fat & protein grains to put some weight on her then cut back on the extras when she is a healthy weight. Make a mixture of the seeds you want to add---- and give her a tablespoon of the commercial mix plus a tablespoon of your special mix together for each meal----


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Lori,

I personally use a rubber catheter for tube feeding. Quite a few people prefer the stainless steel gavage tube, but I'm always concerned about the possibility of rupturing the esophagus, particularly if the bird struggles (this might be less of a concern for you, since you have someone else holding the bird steady for you; I tube feed solo, and some birds put up a bit of a fight).

The larger seeds (peas, corn) that have been mentioned here are the ones typically found in a pigeon mix. I don't know if you have any feed stores in your area, but some brands to look for include Baden, Brown's, and Purgrain. With the pigeon mix, hand feeding will go a lot quicker (and it's healthier for them than the typical wild bird seed mixes, which contain mostly millet).

If he swallowed the seed readily when you put it on his tongue, I would probably continue hand feeding this way as well as offering a deep dish or shot glass of seeds so he can try to feed himself.

Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am pretty certain that one of our members in Sidney had a pigeon that lost its upper beak. It learnt how to scoop with the lower beak (I will try to track down more details). Not only that, but it escaped and survived in the wild, returning to her balcony to feed from a deep dish.

As for tube feeding, I use the same catheter Jennifer does. I don't think it hurts because I have had both squabs and an adult bird rush towards the front of the cage and swallow the tube in their hurry to be fed. Well lubricated it is very gentle on the bird. As they eat pieces of maize and peas that are as thick as the tube, but rougher, I can't understand why it would be seen to damage the esophagus.

I used to use a needle tube, but this seems to be gentler even on the little doves.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I found an old post on another forum about that pigeon in Sidney, hope this reassures you!:



> Doily is the pigeon who lost the top mandible of her beak to pox
> last year. She lives free and comes to me for food daily - she has to
> scoop it from a bowl as she can't pick up food. Sorry the pics aren't
> very good. she's difficult to photograph as she's quite shy! But you can
> ...


(the photos are no longer available)

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

moppasconi said:


> Thanks again Lady Tarheel!
> 
> I received a message to check my email, but I honestly haven't seen anywhere to retrieve mail. If I am missing your email, please let me know how to retrieve as I am a new comer to the site. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Hi, I was responding to the e-mail you sent me. Just check your regular e-mail account that is not a part of this forum. 

On this forum you can send any member an e-mail if they have enabled that option and the message will go to the member's regular e-mail address. You can also send any member a "private message" which does show here in the forum.

I suggested that you get a pigeon food mix that has peas, grains, corn in it and add safflower seed, black oil sunflower seed, split peas and lentils. Most of the seed/grains are large enough to pop in the back of their mouth like Cynthia showed in her video.

I also suggested feeding Peggy about two ounces of seed, twice a day with one supplemental tube feeding of the Kaytee Exact. I would do the tube feeding until she puts on some weight. I also mentioned I'm not 100% sure of the two ounce amount but that hopefully Renee (Lovebirds) would verify. I think most breeders give their pigeons about two ounces, twice daily, but I'm not sure since we feed ours once a day with treats given in the late afternoon.

It will probably be a slow process teaching Peggy how to eat on her own but you sound like you have the kindness and determination to help her. You're doing a fine job and thank you.


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Good Morning BirdDust,

Thank you for the encouragement. 

I had a co-worker bring in crushed flax seed this a.m. and was trying to put the wild bird seed and crushed flax seed in the back of Peggy's throat. She swallowed some, but much was flung around. 

Because she has no upper beak and only a tiny nub of skin, I cannot really pry anything open. I can just put some seed on the back of her tongue and hope she swallows it and doesn't fling it around.

I also tube fed her Harrison's Juvenile formula this a.m., she would only take 7cc's before putting up a fight again.

I am so worried, maybe something else is going on. She was 230grams when we received Peggy in our care, then she went up to 240grams, but after losing her upper beak this past Saturday she was 200grams or 7ounces the day before yesterday, 7ounces when I weighed her before I went home, but she is now 6.8ounces this morning. 

We even tube fed her twice yesterday 8cc's of the Harrison's mash juv. formula and put a few seeds in her mouth.

May I ask what is your house bird's weight?

I am so worried that she is loosing too much weight.

I am running out to a "game/grain/farm" store and getting pigeon food to put the seeds in her mouth.

Thanks,
Moppasconi


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I also suggested feeding Peggy about two ounces of seed, twice a day with one supplemental tube feeding of the Kaytee Exact. I would do the tube feeding until she puts on some weight. I also mentioned I'm not 100% sure of the two ounce amount but that hopefully Renee (Lovebirds) would verify. I think most breeders give their pigeons about two ounces, twice daily, but I'm not sure since we feed ours once a day with treats given in the late afternoon.


Well, 2 ounces seems like a lot of food to me, but I feed a different kind of pigeon for a different reason. I would start with the 2 ounces, 1 in the AM and one in the PM and see how it goes. The bigger grains, if you can find them, will be much easier to hand feed than all those tiny little seeds that come in other mixes. If you can find some Safflower seeds (Wal-Mart) then those are a high fat seed and would be good to feed at least once a day. Maggie mentioned the breeders that we feed........I honestly have no idea how much they eat every day as they have food 24/7 and it's replenished a couple times a day, so I don't keep up with the amounts. I just feed em'... when they're raising babies.


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Good Morning Terry,

Thank you too, I am so fortunate to have been directed to your website by my boss. He has been on here before with his bird R.K. who is doing great by the way. R.K. and his girlfriend S.K. are living at my boss's home and producing young healthy babies. They are very happy and thanks to all of you who helped him.

I was using a #14 gavage tube as well. She still fought this morning, but my co-worker put the little towel around her and I was speaking to her and humming to try and relax her. We were able to get 7cc's of the Harrison's Juvenile formula down. 

Thank you for explaining the seed pops and shot glass to me.

My co-worker brought in crushed flax seed and I was trying to get as much down in her mouth and throat, I also was putting in the wild bird seed we had on hand in the back of her mouth. She swallowed some seed, but a lot she shook her beak and head.

Her weight is of major concern. I ran out three days ago and bought a digital scale because when we got her she was 230 grams, then after our care of 3 tube feeds daily she was up to 240 grams. However, this past Saturday she lost her beak and was only 200 grams or 7 ounces and then last night she was the same 200 grams or 7 ounces. I was encouraged that she didn't loose any more weight. 

However, this morning I weighed her and she was only 6.8ozs which really concerns me.

This is even with two tube feeds of 7ozs. daily and trying to get seed in her mouth/throat.

I am running to a store later on today, and will try the pigeon mix, with flax seed, and I am going to get sunflower seed too. 

Plus, I am going to continue with the two tube feeds.

I am trying, but now I am so worried there is something else going on causing her weight loss. I am worried what if the canker had done damage to her internal organs?

So much to think about, I hope she isn't suffering. 

I have another appointment at another veternarian's office on Monday for a second opinion. 
I just hope she doesn't loose any more weight.

Thank you.
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Rainbows,

Thank you.

I will be trying that.

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Good Morning Cyro51,

Thank you too for all the advice. I cannot figure it out either, Peggy was doing so good with the tube feeds prior to her loosing her upper beak. 

We are using a #14 stainless gavage tube, and nothing has changed. I have a co-worker who holds Peggy, and I extend her head/neck.

We have started talking and humming trying to relax her, we even tried wrapping her in the towel this morning.

This helped somewhat. She didn't kick because she either couldn't or was more relaxed, but she was still fighting trying to turn her head and neck and wiggle. I always then gently pull the tube out because I am always fearful of rupturing or puncturing her esophagus or crop because of her movement. Then I re-insert and start all over. She never did this, and I hope there isn't something else going on that I am unaware of causing her irritation or pain.

I started the "seed pops" yesterday and will continue to try and tube feed twice daily at 8cc's of the Harrison's Juvenile formula and then seed pops. 

I am running out to buy sunflower seeds and pigeon mix, along with the flax, and hope and pray she will make it.

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi and Good Morning Lady Tarheel,

Thank you once again. It is so great to have all of you helping Peggy and me 

I am running out to buy special pigeon mix to assist instead of just the wild game crumble I bought, since she doesn't seem to be interested in this. She is interested in the wild bird seed, but doesn't seem to be getting enough.

I will also go out and buy some sunflower and safflower seeds as recommeded by all.

I will also continue tube feeding the 8cc's at least twice a day or once depending on her seed intake.

I am just so worried about this weight loss, I don't understand it because we have been continually tube feeding twice daily throughout this whole process and she has lost so much weight since loosing her beak.

Thank you.
Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Lovebirds,

I am going to follow all of your advice today and hope and pray she starts gaining some weight.

I am running to Wal-Mart and a special grain/feed store to get some pigeon mix.

Thank you to all of you.

I feel so badly for Peggy and want her to make it.

Moppasconi


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## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

Perhaps you should stay with the larger seeds than the flax. The safflower, sunflower, and peas would be easier to seed-pop and easier for her to realize they are in her throat and she might swallow instead of flinging


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Rainbows,

Thank you. Yes, I agree after trying this method. She is flinging the flax around and I am going to go get the larger seeds now over lunch.

I appreciate all that you are doing.

Thanks again.
Moppasconi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moppasconi,

There could be something else...Despite the vet's diagnosis the position of the lesion and its effect on the beak sounds more like pox than canker, though they are often found together. 

One of our UK members is trying to save a wood pigeon with pox, he is very emaciated and we were going through various fattening foods. In winter we feed the wild starlings fat balls and wholemeal bread soaked in sunflower oil which gives them a lot of calories, so she is trying out these, and chopped peanuts, on her woodie.

Peggy is very thin at 230 gms, but John D has just nursed a pigeon with PMV back from that weight to 300 gms, and another UK rescuer has coaxed a PMV squeaker that was on the verge of death from 130 gms to 310.

I have a pigeon with a damaged lower beak, he absolutely hated being tube fed, it was a relief for both of us when he adapted and started eating on his own. Maybe they feel more vulnerable with part of the beak missing. 

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Did you see this thread by Terry?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=29797&referrerid=560

Scroll down and see all the gunk that came up after the beak had gone!

Cynthia


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Good Afternoon Cyro51,

Well, Peggy is not really learning to self feed.

She continues to peck which breaks my heart.

I am continuing the tube feed 3x's 8cc's hoping she will learn.

I am going to send everyone photos. 

I haven't seen any photos on here of the type of damage Peggy sustained. She is completely missing the upper beak and tissue. 

This is making "seed popping" virtually impossible. We try to get some seeds down here throat, and she gets some here and there, but no where close to 2-4oz a day.

Please help!!!

We want to save her so badly, but we don't know what to do.

Does anyone know how we can teach her to self feed or scoop feed?

We were told by so many veterinarians that she will never learn to scoop feed because of the extent of damage to her upper beak?

We feel so sad today.

Please, if anyone else has any ideas on how to teach Peggy to eat?, please help.

Also, we were told it takes anywhere from 2-4 hours from mouth to rectum, so if we tube feed at say 5pm, her last poops produced should be at 9pm. The reason we ask this, is last night Peggy's last tube feed was 5pm, and then this a.m. we gave her one at 9am, and on the way to the vet. at 9:30am, she had three droppings.

Doesn't this sound like she is eating something then?

Please let us know.

We are going to forward photos as soon as I learn how to to this.

Thanks to all of you.

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

*Peggy Pigeon's Missing Upper Beak Photos*

[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

Attached, Please find photos of Peggy's missing upper beak.

Please help!!


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Mopp,

If you put seeds on her tongue, does she then swallow them?

Have you tried offering her a deep dish of seeds to see if she'll dip her beak into it and use her tongue to grab and swallow seeds?

I have a pigeon who lost his entire tongue to canker. I was told by both an avian vet and an experienced rehabber that he would never be able to eat, but eat he does. In fact, I think he's gained weight since he tongue detached. I have another pigeon whose beak is extremely scissored (also from canker). The top and bottom don't meet at all, yet she is able to feed herself from a small glass full of seeds.

So don't lose hope. If it were me, I'd also try explaining to Peggy that she now needs to use her tongue to swallow the seeds, and that you'll help her learn, etc. When my bird's beak first scissored, whenever I'd come in the room to replenish the supply of seeds, she'd go into a frenzy, landing on the dish before I could put it down, tossing seeds everywhere in a panicked attempt to eat. I told her there would always be enough seeds for her, that she didn't have to worry, and the behavior resolved immediately (even I was surprised).

Jennifer


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Jennifer,

Peggy does seem to swallow any of the seeds that stay on her tongue. It just doesn't seem like she is getting very many, most of the seeds which I pinch in my fingers seem to fall off her lower beak or tongue, and sometimes she will shake her head and they fling. 

Don't get me wrong, she will swallow some, but I can't imagine she is getting enough. That is why me and my co-worker are giving her still 3 tube feeds of 8cc's during the week and at least 2 tube feeds of 8cc's on the weekend of the Harrison's Juvenille formula. Plus we try to get whatever seed in her mouth as we can.

The thing with Peggy is that she doesn't seem to be getting that she is to go in her dishes. I have put about seven different tupperware dishes all about 2" deep with different widths in there. I have put some pigeon food/mix (which she has no interest), I also have put some sunflower seeds which I put in a food processor in a bowel, I have wild game crumble in another, safflower seeds in another, flax powder/flakes in another, and wild bird seed with small millet and thistle in the other. 

She just keeps pecking the ground where the seeds have fallen, she doesn't seem to get it.

I will talk to her, but I hope she learns.

How long can it take??

Moppasconi


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

*Peggy Pigeon's Pictures - Update*

Hello Everyone:

Please find attached my Peggy Pictures showing her disability. There should be three photos, two which are a profile and one from the front.

The latest is that Peggy weighs 207grams, up from 197 (the worst after loosing her upper beak to canker and possibly pox).

We were to a avian veterinarian today who told us she will never learn to self feed or scoop feed because of the severity of her upper beak loss and we should "put her down".

My co-worker and I are tube feeding her 3x's daily 8cc's of Harrison's Juvenile formula Monday through Friday. The weekends we are at least going to continue 2x's daily of the 8cc's Harrison's Juvenile.

We also have purchased wild game crumble, pigeon mix, sunflower seeds (both ground and whole), safflower seeds, flax seed powder, and wild bird seed (2 different varieties). We have them in bowls at least 2" deep and different widths.

She seems to only peak around the floor and doesn't go into the bowls at all.

You will see from the pictures that it is quite difficult to "seed pop" because there is nothing left of the upper beak, so I have to place seeds to the best of my ability on her tongue for her to swallow. The problem is that her lower beak is so narrow, I don't get much seed on there. 

Would anyone please give me their opinion if you think based on these pictures the following:

1. Can she learn to scoop or self feed?
2. How long could it take to learn to self feed?
3. She seems like a very young bird, so what is a health weight for a young bird in our care?
4. How long does it take to produce droppings from the time they eat, one veterinarian said 2 hours, the other said 4 hours, and the reason I ask is yesterday her last tube feed was 5pm, this a.m. she had three droppings on our way to the veterinarian. Now, we did tube feed this a.m. at 9am, but we took off for the vet. at 9:30am, which was only one half of an hour and she had droppings. I thought this was encouraging that maybe she had eaten something over night?
5. If, in the event she will never self feed, would anyone know of someone who could provide her with proper care? 

I appreciate all of your help to date, and anything further any of you could provide since the veternarians do not seem to be of much of a help at this point.

Thank you.

Moppasconi


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Mopp,

I can't say how long it will take because that's so individual. I can only tell you what I would try in such a situation, which is to use a pigeon mix with bigger seeds (peas, corn, barley, safflower). I'd put out a couple of dishes of this and show them to her. (If she's young, I'd also sit her in front of the seed dishes and make pecking motions with my fingers to try to teach her to eat.)

I'd also hand feed her by putting individual large seeds on her tongue and would feed her as much as she seems to want to eat in one sitting at least twice a day. Hand feeding seeds will hopefully at least teach her that the seeds are food, which in turn should motivate her to try to eat on her own.

I don't think you need to pulverize the seeds--I don't think she's any more likely to get anything down that way. 

Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Poor baby!

When a pigeon dies at my local sanctuary they remove the beak and freeze it, to use as a prosthetic for another bird if needed. Is this an option for Peggy, do you think? The sanctuary is Hallswood in Norfolk, perhaps if you e-mail them they could advise

I was sorry to read Jen's post in another thread where she said that a pigeon without a tongue could still feed...We had a horrible situation in the UK where someone was cutting the beaks off feral pigeons. I offered to give the mutilated pigeons a home but they were uethanased because their tongues...

Cynthia


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Cynthia,

Thank you.

I know, I feel so badly for Peggy.

I took Peggy to an avian vet. today who said, "she will have no hope of every self feeding in her situation", I would put her down.

Do you feel that she could teach herself to self feed or scoop feed with her lower beak and tongue?

I do have her diseased beak, but I reside in Allentown, Pennsylvania in the USA. I inquired to see if anyone did reconstructive surgery or prosthetics, but apparently, not for pigeons.

Would you have any more contact information for your suggestion?

I could ask if they could help me in the USA?

Thanks Cynthia,
Lori a.k.a. Moppasconi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Lori,

Give her time and tempting seeds in a deep dish. She can learn.

This is Lyz at Hallswood's e-mail address She should be able to describe the procedure they use to you. They showed me a blackbird with a new beak stuck on that was going to be released. I couldn't see anything wrong with it. I have a feeling they probably use vet bond...I don't know if you could use the diseased beak...might be possible.

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The pictures don't seem to have made it. If you can e-mail them to me, I will get them posted. Photos would be very helpful. [email protected]

8 cc/ml per feeding is not really enough. You should be feeding about 20 cc/ml or more per feeding depending upon the crop capacity of Peggy.

It's hard to say whether she will learn to "scoop" well enough to become completely self feeding, but it is certainly possible. 

Bless you for helping Peggy!

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Sorry if this thread became a little confusing .. I merged two others into this one trying to keep all the info about Peggy in one place.

Terry


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Lori......Poor little Peggy. He story really breaks my heart. I sure hope she can learn to eat. Why don't you try contacting the Univ. of Pa. Vetaniary School of Medicine to see if they are doing any work along the lines of repair that Cynthia has described. I have found in my experience with all different types animals that the Vetaniary Schools go way beyond treatment and procedures that any one Vet would ever be able to attempt.

Bless you for all that you are doing to help and save this little bird.

Regards,
Louise


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Ol' One Beak has been going for almost a year and a half now:










She gets tubed about 40 mL of medium thick formula per day and she even eats seeds (mostly peas, beans and corn kernels) that I feed her by hand most days.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I just get a little red cross instead of the photo!

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

lwerden said:


> Hi Lori......Poor little Peggy. He story really breaks my heart. I sure hope she can learn to eat. Why don't you try contacting the Univ. of Pa. Vetaniary School of Medicine to see if they are doing any work along the lines of repair that Cynthia has described. I have found in my experience with all different types animals that the Vetaniary Schools go way beyond treatment and procedures that any one Vet would ever be able to attempt.
> 
> Bless you for all that you are doing to help and save this little bird.
> 
> ...


I wanted to mention that you need to be careful in dealing with some veterinary schools. We have an excellent vet school at NC State University. They used to have an avian department but closed it a few years ago - don't really know why.

The thing is, with any bird we took to them, and I think they helped us with about three, we were required to sign the birds over to them before they would treat the bird. If they deemed the bird could NOT be made well enough to return it to the wild, it was euthanized. If the bird could be helped enough to return it to the wild, the bird was returned to finish its convalescence until release.

Lets face it, vet schools use animals/birds to train future vets and will often try different things to help the bird. This can amount to a tremendous amount of money per bird - much more than we could pay.


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Cynthia,

Lyz's email address didn't come thru.

Thanks for keeping in touch. Please try to resend, if you need to send directly to an email address, my email address is [email protected], if you didn't get to see Peggy's pictures in the thread, please send me an email address so I can forward the pictures via my [email protected] account.

Thanks,
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Terry,

I just sent you Peggy's photos via my work email. If you have to reply, please use my home email address which is [email protected]

My boss would be very upset if he knew I email you the pictures from here.

Also, I will increase her tube feeds to 10cc's per time since that is what the tube will hold. That would be 30cc's or 30ml's per day, plus I will continue the hand feeding of seed. 

Thanks,
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Louise,

Thank you for the kind words and advice.

I was told by two veternarians locally that they do not believe anyone at UPENN is doing reconstructive surgeries on pigeons. They couldn't really refer me to anyone. I tried 

Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Pidgey,

Ol One Beak looks like Peggy. She is the first that I found that looks like her!

I am going to increase the tube feeds of the Harrison's juvenile formula. The tube holds 10cc's so I will be doing at least three a day which would be 30ml's. She is pretty small.

May I ask how you hand feed her, because when I try to put seeds in Peggy, they seem to fall off or she sakes her head and not many go in? Also, how often do you hand feed, can I ask what are you hand feeding her and how much?

Is Ol One Beak able to eat on her own?

Please let me know, you are the only other person who I found that is caring for a pigeon with such a disability.

Thank you.
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Maggie,

Thank you for your tips and advice.

I certainly will consider all of this.

I do not want to put Peggy in harms way.

Lori


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Ol' One Beaker nuzzles right up to my hand when I'm holding a seed like a dried pea or a corn kernel. It's kinda' like the opposite of taking a piece of candy from a Pez dispenser. You kinda' just pinch the seed between your thumb and index finger and then when her head comes up, you just push it somewhat downward and inward with your thumb. I think I remember holding her head a little the first few times but she "got it" pretty quickly.

I tube feed her and Scissors with the stuff that I've always used shown here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pictures-amp-videos-of-tube-feeding-16235.html

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is a very touching picture, Pidgey. And very encouraging as well as it shows what can be achieved with loving care.

Lori, I will send you Lyz's address from my address book...if she doesn't answer in a couple of days try again or let me know.

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Peggy's pictures appear to be there today. If they "disappear" again, I'll post the ones that were e-mailed to me.

Terry


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Pidgey.

So, it seems from what you said, Ol One Beak and Scissors cannot eat on their own, by what people have said is "scoop feeding" or by licking up some seeds with their tongue.

Am I correct that you have been tube feeding Ol One Beak 40ml per day, plus supplementing seeds to keep her alive? Please let me know if I should be optomistic about her learning to self feed, or should I be prepared that in order to keep Peggy going, she will always need to be fed? Would you please let me know if Ol One Beak ever eats on her own?

Also, I know you mentioned about the 40mls per day, and that you pop the peas in her mouth by putting the seeds between your finger and thumb, just how many seeds do you get down in a day? 

I would greatly appreciate anymore information that you could provide Pidgey. I truly appreciate your reply.

Thank you,
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thank you Cynthia.

Our goal is to get Peggy to self feed or learn to scoop feed somehow.

I am doing this as a short to mid term solution. Peggy is at my place of work, and we feed her three times a day during the week and two - three times during the weekend.

But, I am so afraid because of working full time, going to school, maintaining my home with my very sick and old dog, cat and bunny, plus taking care of my elderly neighbor who lives alone and is in a hospice situation with her liver cancer; I may not be able to continue to feed Peggy three times a day and provide Peggy with the care and attention she would need.

That is why I truly hope she can learn to eat on her own. It has only been a week and a half and I want to give the poor girl time to learn. If she learns to eat on her own, my boss has a beautiful outdoor avian area, where a few of his pigeons who cannot fly or have other issues are living out their lives.

I am so wanting Peggy to be able to do that.

Thanks again,
Lori

Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Terry,

Thank you so much for all your work and help too.

All of your support has been truly a blessing and such a help.

I am not sure what I would have done if not finding all of you and this site.

No one locally seems to have a clue on how to care for sick/injured pigeons.

Thanks to all once again.
Lori


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

moppasconi said:


> Thanks Pidgey.
> 
> So, it seems from what you said, Ol One Beak and Scissors cannot eat on their own, by what people have said is "scoop feeding" or by licking up some seeds with their tongue.
> 
> ...


Your bird actually has the ceres left, which is more than Ol' One Beak does. Ol' One Beak lost it back to the skull. Actually, I'm hoping to be able to help Ol' One Beaker and Scissors both learn to eat on their own someday. It's been a question of time to do it because work and home have been ungodly busy lately.

Anyhow, the calorific requirements of a bird can be figured by a formula based on their weight and condition. For Ol' One Beaker and Scissors, they both require about four (4) level teaspoons of dry formula apiece per day, regardless of how much water is mixed in. Each dry level teaspoon of formula powder has about 10 Calories (a food Calorie with a capital "C" is actually 1000 calories with a small "C"). Both Ol' One Beaker and Scissors require about 40 Calories per day.

I only feed Ol' One Beaker about 20 peas and corn kernels per day.

Pidgey


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Good Morning Pidgey,

Thank you so much for all your input and advice.

You are a very special person to take on the responsibility of caring for Ol One Beak and Scissors. Thanks to you, they appear to be buddies 

It is a same Ol One Beak had so much beak loss. I am so glad she found you.

I have increased Peggy's tube feed volume, and have been attempting to place peas and corn in the back of her throat. I got a few more yesterday then the day before.

She seems to get it now. When I come in she still runs from me and will fly a bit, but when I get her she sits there and when I hold the seed by her lower beak she will open up for me. Sometimes, I am successful with one going down, other times they fall to the side, but I am trying.

I also keep her seed in deep dishes and keep cleaning the floor up so she isn't tempted to peck. I am hoping she goes to the bowls and tries to get some in from there.

I will keep trying.

Thank you Pidgey.

Good luck to you with your busy days. I am sure it can get really crazy, especially with caring for disabled friends.

Have a wonderful day.
Thanks again,
Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

*Peggy Update*

Hi Everyone,

Well, the latest with Peggy. 

Peggy has continued to be tube fed, 3x's daily Monday thru Friday and 2x's daily on the weekend. 

We have supplemented her tube feeds with "seed pops". She did get a bit better learning to open up for us.

However, her tongue which was normal, pink in color and totally in place after her upper beak fell off is now slighly discoloring at the tip. 

Her tongue always appeared normal in color/pinkish and now is a yellowish color. We have no idea what to think, or what may be occurring.

We have tried several different dishes, and appartus to get her to self feed, to no avail.

We have another appointment at our first vet. tomorrow and she is do for a second treatment for lice. We are going to ask our vet. if she knows what is occuring.

If her prognosis is o.k., meaning she doesn't loose her tongue to another infection, we are going to attempt to build her an appartus for eating.

A screened platform with subterranean cups. Therefore, the cups would be level to the screen so she could continue to peck like she has been doing and any seed which would fly or be dispersed would fall through the screen and be caputured in a tray which could be recycled or tossed.

Since Peggy has an aversion to the cups/dishes, and continues to peck at seeds on the ground, we are hoping this contraption would assist her to self feed.

Again, we are hoping she doesn't have another infection on her tongue. 

Could this be canker again?

Can they develop more than one infection of canker?

If someone could please answer these questions, or have any input, that would be greatly appreciated.

Peggy continues to struggle, and we want to improve her time here with us.

Thank you,
Lori


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, the tongue is a little problematic for pigeons like these. You can coat it with glycerin (found as a suppository kind of injector for babies in most drug stores these days) and help it quite a bit. Try doing it once per day, after feeding.

Pidgey


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

hey guys.I will try to put my 5 cents also...
Depends how far the breakage is, as far as if will grow back or not
Obviously if is very close to the bone, will not grow back, if you cant see the hard part (bone) or is far enought will start to grow (very long process) but chances are will not grow strait, like use to be, so both, the bottom one and the upper one will meet and align.
If is so close to the bone , that you can actualy see it (whitish color) then my expierience say will not grow back. Also you will have to every now and then (2 or 3 weeks) file the bottom one, cause now , without the support, which normly both have for each other, now the bottom one will start to conved. Means will start shaping it self up, from the midle part.

You have to file the bottom one very close to upper one (in HOMEDEPOT they sell this thing named DREMEL) i will attach the pick of it. You cant go wrong with it. Try not to go to close to the bone (in case, will not bleed , cause the speed is causing coagulation). till then handfeed formula, dip the tube in any oil just enough so is not dripping all over the place - that would mean to much oil..LOL

If you can work with Dremel now and then , she will be ok.

But you wanna know for sure, that the beak will not grow back, before getting to work on the bottom one and shortning it

Best wishes


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I do not know much about this, but I was thinking of her having to "file" the bottom beak too. but them i got to thinkin about it's tounge....would'nt he need the bottom beak to be as long as his tounge for support or just to keep the tounge in place?..


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you can't shorten the bottom beak by that much because the two spars of bone from both of the TMJs are separate until the tip. What you'd get if you tried to shorten the bottom beak up that much would be a soft pouch between them would form. A former member had one like that who eventually learned to eat very slowly from a deep dish of seeds. The tongue would be sticking out totally unsupported and would eventually dry out and rot off.

Pidgey


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

:eekguys, where are the pics of that bird beak????

I cant find them. Of curse I also did not notice that this thread has 5 pages, after reading the first page I just jump in


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

corvid said:


> :eekguys, where are the pics of that bird beak????
> 
> I cant find them. Of curse I also did not notice that this thread has 5 pages, after reading the first page I just jump in


The photos are here: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=324788&postcount=40

Terry


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank You Terry. O boy !!  

There will defenetly be no FILING THERE ...o bummer.. 

And I will need some kind of GLASSESS, so I can see how many pages there is to the thread 


Nell


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Pidgey.

Good morning. I truly appreciate it.

The Vet.'s prognosis was much better. She was pleased about her lice, greatly improved.

She also believes the tongue is "drying" out, and suggested either aloe or KY Jelly for lubrication.

She also was very pleased to hear that Peggy is taking seeds from my fingers and opening up to eat.

Suggested I make another addition to our appartus, it would be like a water bottle used for rabbits, but taking the ball out of the end so she can push up for seed, or she said a PVC tube (two pieces glued together with a little screened hole which would allow for her head to push up but so the seed didn't all fall down), we will be building these devices soon.

Our Vet. is convinced she can learn to self-feed if we build her the right device.

If we build something, and it works for Peggy, I would ask my co-workers to build another one for Scissors and Ol One Beak, if it works.

Thanks for you help.

Lori


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## moppasconi (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks again to all of you for your input and support!

Lori


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