# Rescued Feral - help please!!



## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi everyone, really enjoying reading the posts. We have rescued a baby pigeon - approx 13 days old. We live in Perth Western Australia. I have been using the syringe feeding - not with a tube, we used the balloon over the end method - I was scared about putting it down the wrong pipe! Podgy is much happier this way than when I was opening his mouth (very clumsily) and pushing food into his mouth  I think we have been getting approx 8mls into him. His crop is quite full but is that enough? Should I be giving him water too? I am giving him a granivore rearing mix. (Havent found the brand Kaytee - maybe not available in Australia?? Problem is that all the videos I have seen on baby feeding, the mixture seems quite mushy. When I followed the instructions on this box the mixture was like water?? I ended up making it into a slush instead. Hope I did the right thing.
I found a thread yesterday that mentioned the amount of feed they need and when to start introducing seed but I haven't been able to find it again. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks and looking forward to the reply - I am amazed at how attached we have become to little Podgy. Hope he survives our attempts to love him! Lots of questions to come but know that I will get some good answers. thanks everyone. PS Hope this is being posted in the right spot- I am a newby at this.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Podgy's Mum, thanks for helping this little guy out and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. I know you have already started with managing to feed him, but I will go though things, just in case you pick up a few more tips.

Because at this age they get both their food and water from the hand-feeding formula best for the nest little while if the formula is not too thick, about like loose pancake batter, it should be pourable, but not as thin as water. Food temperature is very important 102-104 degrees to trigger the feeding response and so it processes right. You may have to gently guide his beak into the slit at first. Have a look at this link to see how a full crop should look: http://www.mumtazticloft.com/BabyPigeons.asp, when feeding, just feed until the crop is nicely full, let it go down to almost flat and the feed again, repeat through the day, and try and get a late night feeding in before lights out.

Please note in the link belows, the end of the nipple has been cut off and a blue, latex, glove finger has been used to cover it, with a slit cut into it to allow the babies to stick their beaks into (thanks Msfreebird).

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/han...asy-36768.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/new-mom-to-2-little-pigeons-46776-2.html

How to "pop" food: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow
How to feed soaked seeds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5H5duyufNk&NR=1 (note* at the end do not do as in the video, give water to bird from a human mouth, you can use wild bird seed, but take but remove large items, IE; corn/peas/peanuts/sunflower seeds in the shell)

Here are a few others for you to get an idea of the process. These are mostly using a large syringe, with the end completely cut, covered with latex or stretch cloth, with a slit. Don't forget the all the questions, photo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bin7rhSLQss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_wCjIduGN4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ7Qe3Zc5bY

Here is a link showing feeding seeds by a bottle/slit method for when they are a little older (should be about three weeks old to so this): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FCE1IcT9pw&feature=related

Here is some information for when he is a bit older, in a week or two, on transitioning him to seeds and getting him to drink on his own.

These links that describes how to get them nuzzling and eating seeds, also when you spread some seeds around for them, you can make like you are hunting and pecking with them by crooking your forefinger and tapping at the seeds along with them. Also, start to keep a dish of seeds in their cage (no whole sunflower seeds, along with a small water dish,) as well as spreading some out in their cage for the to peck at. Some catch on pretty quick, with others it may take a bit of time, so be patient with them. Once they are eating seeds, continue to supplement with formula until they are a few weeks older.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11 (information on how to get him to start to self water)
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=523350&postcount=16 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508006&postcount=3 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507810&postcount=2 feeding seeds


Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Podgey's Mum,



Keep him 'warm', and, make sure there enough poops being made, to match the intake of food. which is to say, make sure his Crop is passing the foods well.

Can you post some images of the Baby, and of their freshest poops?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

8 ml's/feeding ? That's pretty good. At 13 days or so, I usually do about 20-25 ml's of formula a day, divided up into 3 feedings (if all his meals came from formula). Some folks would suggest more for a 2-week old, which I suppose would be fine. This is extrapolated from my avian vet suggesting 40-45ml for a 3-week old. Remember to wait for his crop to empty before feeding again (usually 3-4 hours in between meals is good).

The above advice is helpful...I would just like to applaud you for having done very well so far on your own !!!


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi All, thanks for the advice. Podgy is eating about 12 mls a feed now (but his crop doesnt seem to look as full as the ones I have seen from Dobatos links. ) Those babies look really smooth and sweet too - Podgy looks like a little vulture according to my 11 yo Daughter.  When do they start to preen? This little one gets so messy, I wipe him down but the formula gunks his feathers. Also, he seems to have quite spiky feet - looks almost like feathers were trying to grow but they keep coming out, leaving little bleeding wounds. These have healed really quickly but I am just wondering about them?
Another question - I was told that he would need probiotic injections????? Why??? How can I replicate that? Doesn't seem to mention anything about this on the rearing mixture I am using. Thanks for your help everybody - Phil, I will try and post some photos - I am computer 'challenged' so I will do my best!


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Phil - his poops are green but quite watery


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Were is our 'Bangs Head on Wall' emoticon?


"Images"


Lol...


Of the Youngster himself, and, close ups of the poops?


'Worth a thousand Words' as they say.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, most definitely, post up some photos, both of Podgy, his feet and of his fresh droppings. The amount 12mL is not too bad, just means you will have to feed a little more often, as the crop will empty quicker with less in it, so...feed... empty... feed again and so on, about every 2-3 hours if things are moving well through his system (make sure the food is at 102-104 degrees when feeding). Any chance on getting a weight on him if you have a kitchen scale (or can borrow one).

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

I am laughing so hard the tears are rolling - Phil, I can imagine your frustration!! I mentioned in my first reply to you that I was computer challenged - I hate to say "I told you so!!" Green & watery poops adequately described the image in my mind but of course, you can't see those!!!!! LOL! As to the photos I will try and upload some tomorrow. Wish me (or should I say Podgy) luck! If his health is dependent on my photo taking and uploading we are both in serious trouble. I crushed some seed into his formula, gave him 15 mls and his crop looks much better! Yay.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pictures of poop can sometimes give a clue as to a bird's state of health. It is not necessarily that easy to make a judgement with such a young pigeon, though, particularly as he is being fed formula. 

With older pigeons, poops which are not 'picture perfect' may indicate an illness, but they can also vary just because of change of diet or feeding routine or a temporary stress. Most forms of 'not right' poops need to be taken as part of the picture, which also includes other observable symptoms, weight change and general appearance.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Podgey's Mom,



I have lots of reasons for wishiing to see poops...they can offer clues or hints of things in various ways.


Usually Babys make brown poops...no idea why, but, pretty well regardless of diet, they make poops of a sort of tan color.


Bile is 'green', and, sometimes a Bird's system will be putting extra Bile into their digestion, etc.


Urates also are a source of clues.


What are you feeding him?


And, is he enthusiastic about eating?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

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Hello, I have managed  to upload a picture of his poop from this morning. I will take another one later today because I have lined his box with paper towel and should make it easier to see. The photo of Podgy in the box was taken this morning after his breakfast. You can see his feet here (see my concern from previous post) They are looking quite smooth now except for the middle toe on his right - you can just see the white feather thing poking out. They seem to have come away, bled a little and then cleared up.) The other picture of him was taken on 22/11/10. He is eating very well, we are giving him baby pigeon food - an Australian brand called Wombaroo Granivore Rearing Mix. We use the latex covered syringe method and he has worked out very well how to use it and gets extremely excited when he sees it coming! . I have also ground up a few seeds to mix into it. The pigeon mix I found in the animal feed store here has quite large seeds in it, Phil, looking at your photos the mix almost looks like Budgie seed - is it better to get the smaller type of seeds for babies? I have tried to feed him seeds as you show in your photos but so far this mum isn't very good at it. I will keep practicing. I am thinking that the smaller seeds will roll better. How does he look? How old do you think he is? Would I be right at thinking about 15 days? We give him 'exercise' on our kitchen floor after his food and he peeps like crazy until he climbs into our 'hand nests' and snuggles in. (should we be doing this yet? or should we put him straight back into the box?) I have six kiddies and they all like to have a cuddle of our new baby - he settles quite quickly when he realises there is no more food in those little fingers, but I am wondering if it is too much handling too soon?
Anyway, more poop photos later. Thanks again.


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Here is the photo of his poop (passed at approx. 1 1/2 hours after his breakfast) Don't know if that is useful information or not. Seems wetter than his one from last night. 
Is he doing ok???


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Podgy's Mum said:


> View attachment 17660
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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Looks like that Chinese Dish of 'Egg Drop Soup'...


This is a mild illness, though exactly what it is clinically, I do not know.

This has changed from the previous image, of course, suggesting a trajectory or advance.When I see this sort of poop/urate, I treat with Medistatin, and, Metronidazole, and, it clears up.


Formula is a very inviting medium for Bacteria...I make a batch, and freeze it, warming it each time for a feed-session. Freezing it really hydrates it well also, which is a 'plus'.


The longer it is at room temps, the faster it cultures all sorts of things before conspicuously spoiling.

Anaerobes in one's Hot Water Pipes likely opportune for succour also, if hot Tap Water is used for mixing.


I do not think this is bothering him much as far as how he feels, but, if it continues to advance, of course, it would.


People Mouth Germs and people Germs generally, are also something to guard against or make sure to be safe with anyway.

Best if Hands are well scrubbed before handling Babys ( this with people children especially! As they tend to have a lot more germs on their hands than adults do).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Podgey's Mum, 



Some 'Poppa-Hand-Beak' images ( could be 'Momma-Hand-Beak' also of course ) -








This allows you to feed whole dry Seeds in a very easy natural way which the Baby or Youngster finds entirely fun and normal-enough to their sensibilities.


Just get them 'Nuzzling', grab-the-Beak softly, have them standing tall so the Seeds can roll in, and, everyone's happy, 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' most of all!


That and keep on with the formula till they wish to leave it off on their own...which they will by fourty to fifty odd days, if not sooner.

This also sees them learn to peck, for seeing the Seeds and seeing some of them fall, where, one can also pretend 'peck' to the fallen Seeds with a crook'd index finger, to invite them to emulate the gesture and start pecking on their own.

They will usuall start pecking on their own when fed this way, even with no invite of the crook'd finger pretending to peck, any time from 14 days or so of age, for seeing the Seeds and seeing the Seeds which fall to the Towel.


You can also guide the Beak into a small Cup of small whole Seeds, keeping your finger tip pads on ther sides of their Beak, and, they will 'gobble' the Seeds very eagerly, filling themselves up in seconds...so, watch out not to allow over eating with that one...they can really 'gobble' the Seeds fast with that method.




You can see in the first image, he has his little Beak WIDE open for the Seeds to roll in.


One lets the Seeds roll in, then lowers the Hand with is Beak and Head along with it, for him to swallow, and, then 'up' again...simulating the up-and-down which they do when being fed by their Pigeon-Parents, so they know how to do that rythum, and we just sort of introduce it and they follow perfectly.


Offer tepid Water some ways between any meals, guiding the little Beak into it, keeping your finger tip pads on the sides of the Beak as he drinks...and he will gladly drink Like-a-Horse...



Phil
Lv


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi again Phil, thanks for the advice and encouragement. This forum is very addictive I must say. I find myself checking far too often for a reply - not good for family routine!  But good to know that Podgy is doing pretty good so far.

(When I see this sort of poop/urate, I treat with Medistatin, and, Metronidazole, and, it clears up.)

what are these things and where can I get them from, a pet store? I think I read in another post somewhere about using apple Cider vinegar in the food mixing - is this a good thing to do?

Do you know about "ACV-Water"?


Nope, what is this?

No shoulder or head perching though if he is to be released later.

We would really like to keep him, and I will be asking lots of questions about this later too  Probably have to be in a different post though I am guessing? Not sure about the 'rules' for these things.

Look forward to your reply.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

"ACV-Water" is Apple Cider Vinegar in Water.


Great to use for their drinking, and, formula mixing.


When possible, one elects an Organic, Raw, Unfiltered kind.



How stout they can stand, will vary with the individual, but, usually, two to three Tablespoons of the Vinegar to a Gallon of Water is a good place to start.


I do not remember if Oz is as tyrranical as the rest of the former UK is on access to routine meds.


One can get just about anything here via Mail Order, or if one is clever, one can, and, certainly all the usual Pigeon meds are easy to get here via Mail Order.


Pet Stores here would not have those meds however, and, are unlikely to do so in Oz I would expect.


Maybe, the Metronidazole, could be had of a Tropical Fish Supply, called, 'Fish Zole' usually.



See what he thinks of the 'ACV-Water' ( it will help with shifting the PH in his upper GI to discourage Yeast related troubles, but will not help much for further down ones, where, the Medistatin would ).


And, see if any Tropical Fish related Stores might have 'Fish Zole'.


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Formula is a very inviting medium for Bacteria...I make a batch, and freeze it, warming it each time for a feed-session. Freezing it really hydrates it well also, which is a 'plus'.

Woops, forgot to ask about this - when you make and freeze a 'batch' do you mean you make and freeze individual serves or do you mix a batch for the day, freeze, warm on the stove, give the serving size and then freeze the rest again until next feed?

Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I make a batch for a few days, using a flat bottom Coffee Mug...I simpy combine ingredients with no stirring, let it sit a half hour, then freeze it, then typically, once thawed in a Pan of Warm Water, I stirr thoroughly then, and add more water to get the consistency I want.


It will actually continue to hydrate this way, needing more Water to be added in subsequent thaws and uses.


This is vastly better than that it is allowed to hydrate in his Crop, where it will be pulling any available Water into its materials, and or forming a somewhat impervious 'slug' which can be very slow to pass or which can even pass so slowly as to spoil in the Crop, making bad problems.


Final consistency for me, is like melted Ice Cream on a hot day would be, or a hot-day been sitting Milk Shake would be, so, 'soupy'.


Needs to be served close to Body Temperature, also, of course.


It's a little bit more hassle this way, but, well worth it.


Use cold Tap Water to mix, let it run a few minutes first also...or use a good purified or filtered Water ( but not 'Distilled' ).


Stay away from using Hot Tap Water, as it usually has lots of Anaerobes in it which a Baby or Youngster would be better off without.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Podgy's Mum, Phil has pretty well covered it all so I don't have much to add. He certainly looks in very good condition and healthy, you are doing a great job, just another reminder to make sure the food temp when feeding is nicely warm at 102-104 degrees. Post up a few photos of the feet in question so we can have a better look see.

Keep up the good work,

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks Phil & Dobato,
I have started freezing his formula, and will look into the fish zole tomorrow. Are you able to give an address where I can get the meds you were talking about? I am assuming they would post to Australia??

I spoke with a wildlife sanctuary before finding this forum. I wanted to ask about the formula consistency. Unfortunately they wouldnt give me the details I needed because they preferred for me to bring him into them. I hope we made the right decision but would like to raise him ourselves. Because of their earlier response, I don't think my chances of them giving me details of meds availability would be very good.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

You are doing just fine and now that I have seen a photo of Podgy, I would be safe in saying he could easily take 20mL a feeding without a problem, if you like. Also here is a link for Metronidazole, it's from Jedd's where I often order from, they are on the west coast and in all likelihood would be familiar with shipping to Australia, also since this brand is clearly marked for fish, it may have an easier time making it past customs, if inspected:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-524/FISH-dsh-ZOLE-250MG--dsh--100/Detail.bok

Perhaps a quick email/call to Jedds to hear about what they have to say about shipping to you may be useful. Also, Bella_F mentioned she was able to find on the retail shelf of a tropical fish/pet store over there, a product called Triple-Sulfa by API :http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=66 , you might want to consider either sourcing some, or buying some of this med (it not expensive), as if you keep Podgy and he ever needs treatment with an antibiotic, it would be good to have this med around (it is sealed in foil and will keep for years), as when they get ill there is usually not much time to waste getting them treatment.

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello again, I come armed with many questions!  I was able to buy some Triple-Sulfa today - the tablets are quite large with indents to allow cutting into quarters. How much would I use and how do I give it? In the same water I use to mix his formula (with the ACV?) 
Phil, this is probably a dumb question - but how on earth do I get him to drink water? I know you said to "Offer tepid Water some ways between any meals, guiding the little Beak into it, keeping your finger tip pads on the sides of the Beak as he drinks...and he will gladly drink Like-a-Horse..." 
Here is where my confusion comes in - when I try to hold his beak, with my fingers coming from behind his head to hold his beak near the top, he quickly swivels around and starts pecking into my hand seeking food. If I try and hold his beak from the front how do I get the little cup of water into him???? All I end up doing is spilling the water over him or myself. 

Next, I have medication questions -

This is what I found was available on the shelf over here - not sure what they are and what they are for and if this is what you are talking about.....

Sulpha-D (this treats coccidiosis & enteritis)

Sulfa Solution - (a broad spectrum medication, main ingredient Sulfadimidine)

Avicycline - (treats bacterial enteritis and tetracyline)

I didn't see anything with the ingredient Metronidazole or Medistatin

Last questions regarding formula...

The Wombaroo Granivore mixture seems so watery, I have added more powder than the instructions call for, I have done the freezing thing you suggested but the mix still doesnt seem anything like melted icecream. In fact today when I was feeding he guzzled so quickly I think he got it up his nose coz he started making wet, sucky noises from his nose. I was worried about drowning him. He seemed to get over that fairly quickly though and I added more powder at the next feed to thicken it up more. 

I have found another brand of food at this store I went to today where the medicines are... Neocare Probotic. A hand rearing formula with good bacteria in it. Quite expensive but seems like it might be better. what do you think??
They actually mentioned pigeons and doves on the back, which has been strangely missing on everything else I have read. THere doesnt seem to be much anywhere that caters for pigeon lovers. Is this the same where you are?

Also, the idea that I am helping a Feral (sounds so mean) is almost repugnant to some people. "Disease ridden pests" was one quote. I was advised to take him to the vet and have him put down.

Anyway, we love him and intend to do our best by him.
Looking forward to your next posts,
Regards,
Dana


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, the Triple-Sulfa that you picked up is not for present use, as Podgy is doing well and does not have a bacterial infection, this med is to keep on hand if there comes a time that he does need antibacterial treatment. I will post you instructions on how to use and mix the TS, could you please tell me what brand it is and, what exactly is the size of each pill in mg and what are the complete listing of ingredients that's in each pill.

The first two meds that you also list are sulfas, and since you have the TS, will just overlap and are not required. The Avicycline is a tetracycline based med and is used, like TS, to treat bacterial infections, but on the whole the TS will give broader and more effective coverage except in instances of a few specific infections where a tetracycline is required and the med can still be given with TS for broader coverage. If they are well stocked with this med there is no need to keep some on hand, as this is what the TS is for, and if were determined that a tetracycline should be used, you could always pick some up. 

Once Podgey gets by being a baby and through weaning to seeds, since he is a lone bird that will not really mix with other birds or be in a "wild" setting where he could pick up a possible infection from other wild bird's droppings, odds are quite good that he could go many years without ever needing to be medicated, you are keeping the meds around "just in case" so you could make a quick response if treatment ever became needed. I find an occurrence that happens here on the forum, much too often, is people need help for a sick bird, it's the weekend and when asked what meds do you have on hand, the answer is too frequently "none". I think that anyone who does have birds should keep on hand a few basic meds for occasions when immediate vet intervention, even if wanted, is not going to happen.

The Neocare looks like a good brand, it is made by Vetafarm who is known for making quality products for pigeons and this product would be similar to the Kaytee Hand-formula we use on this side of the world. When mixing this up, use cold, fresh water, heat the water and then mix, following the instructions on the bag, cover and let sit for 1/2 hour (it will thicken up during this rest) then go back and make final consistency adjustments with warm water to get it to a pancake batter like consistency, this will have everything Podgy needs to grow up healthy in it. When in the next week or two you start to have him pecking, learning and moving to self-feeding, Phil will work with you on this.

Just tell people Podgy is a Rock Dove (another term sometimes used for pigeons) I do this sometimes at the vets to avoid that look on people's faces when they are sitting there with their exotics, when they ask what kind of bird do I have....of "a pigeon?????", but then again, sometimes I like to tell them it's a pigeon just to see their reaction .

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Karyn,

Thanks for the great info. I am wondering about the metrinidozole that Phil suggested because of Podgy's poop. Is this the same as the TS?

See what he thinks of the 'ACV-Water' ( it will help with shifting the PH in his upper GI to discourage Yeast related troubles, but will not help much for further down ones, where, the Medistatin would ).


The packet says - Each tablet contains 153.5 mg Sulfadiazine, 154.7mg Sulfadimidine, 154.1mg Sulfamerazine as the Monosodium Salts.
Hope that makes sense to you - Double Dutch to me 

Thanks
Dana


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Oops forgot to tell you the brand - it is Science Products Aquariam Science.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, yes, the list makes sense, the pills are essentially the same as the API brand, but contain roughly half the amount of sulfonamides (the three sulfas you listed). The mixing instructions will be just about the same, I will post them up later for you.

I had a look and it seems that Metronidazole is quite hard to come by over the counter in Australia, you could try calling some of the larger tropical fish stores and ask for Metroplex, Metrazol, Hex-A-Mit, Fishzole and Metronidazole. The brand names I have listed I know are all 100% Metronidazole, do make sure if you do locate some and order in or buy in person that what you are buying is 100% pure Metronidazole, as there are a number of products that do have Metronidazole as their main ingredient, but combine this with other fish meds and these will be no good for us. Also don't forget to contact Jedd's in the link I gave, a few posts ago, they may be able to just ship you some over.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dana,



For drinking, gently grasp his Beak ( and sort of softly 'massage' it ) from the front, as if your Fingers were his Pigeon Parent's Beak and Throat...and, you can guide him across a room that way even.


Slightly moisten your finger tips in warm water, shake off the drops, and, gently sort of grasp his little beak and he will 'Nuzzle' and interpret the gesture/contact as an invitation to feed or water him...he will show enthusiasm for it.

Have the little Tea Cup or low Bowl of tepid Water set right in front of him, and, gently guide his Beak ( from the front ) into it, keeping your finger tip pads on the sides of his Beak so he gets the tactile sensation his Pigeon Parent's Throat would provide, and, he will drink.

Images of to-day's fresh poops?



Best wishes!


You should be working on the 'Momma Hand Beak' for his being fed small whole Seeds.


He can still have formula now and then also.


In fact, once mastering the guided drinking a time or two, do the same thing, but, guide the Beak into a small Tea Cup of small, dry, whole Seeds, keeping your finger tip pads on his Beak, and, he will 'gobble' the Seeds very effectively, and can fill himself up in like ten seconds or so.

Watch out not to allow over-feeding with this...they can REALLY put it away with this method.




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Phil, just for you a new 'poop image'  In fact, this one almost landed on me! He was sitting on my shoulder and woops.........

I bought different seed yesterday, smaller round ones (for budgies) should have more luck trying to 'roll' them into his mouth. Still having trouble with that momma beak trick - can you just fly over and show me how to do it?? 

Have a nice day,
Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

That poop has what I call the 'Chinee Eggdrop Soup' look.


Parts of it suggest a lower GI Yeast infection ( very probable with most formla-hand-feeding methods) but it can also be suggesting a low or incipient Canker condition...and or some Anaerobe infection.


See if any friendly Large Animal Vets in your area, try and have a candid chat with them and see if you can buy a little Metronidazole, and, Medistatin. They might be easier going than regular Pet-Vets tend to be ( shudder...)


I will try and post some more later on the Hand Beak.

You can review the images I posted a little ways above showing me doing it with a little 'Squeaker-Bug'.

I would LOVE to fly over and show you ow to do it!


Just hard to be away what with the various critical care ones, Babys, and whatever else aroung here that has me Tied-to-the-Mast all the time!

I did send off for a little Video-Audio Camera thing that one sets up or clips onto one's Monitor or whatever, so maybe I can learn to make and post links to little Videos showing various things one can do.


It has not got here yet though.


But, for now, work on guiding his Beak as described, for him to drink...and, once getting that down with some success, try the same method, only guide his Beak into a little Bowl of dry, small, whole Seeds, remembering to keep your finger tip pads on his Beak ( or else he will not drink, or 'gobble' the Seeds ).



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, what might be of benefit for now is some ACV (apple cider vinegar, organic with active mother wort) from the health food store. You can add 2 drops (two single drops) to each 10mL of formula just before you are about to feed Podgy. Doing this to his food will help acidify his GI tract and this may help tap down the GI issues he is having, moving him to the new Vetafarm formula may help things as well.

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Karyn,

Would ACV from the supermarket work too?  That is what I bought before I heard either you or Phil mention organic. I would prefer not to keep buying stuff or my husband might have a coronary  My next purchase is going to be that neocare formula - ouch on the back pocket!

Phil, the momma beak thing is not working well for me yet. I only managed to get him to open his beak and swallow once, after I gave up counting how many tries. You should see the pile of seed we spilt all over the table. Luckily it was outside and the pair of Wood Doves that peck around every day will be very happy with my failed attempts! You need to consider a babysitter for your babies and visit Perth LOL. 

I cheated at the last feed and used the large syringe/balloon feeder and it worked a treat, perhaps that will work for water too cos getting his beak into a cup of water has been a dismal failure!  You would either shake your head in disgust at our fumbles or laugh your head off! Anyway, thankfully his formula is quite watery so he won't die of thirst.

My husband and I have been talking about taking him to that wildlife sanctuary next weekend.  We don't have the space for a large aviary to allow him to fly, and I don't think keeping him in a smaller cage would be a kind thing to do. I am feeling quite sad at the thought. We havent told the kids yet - & I'm expecting lots of tears. (Mostly from me!) I was hoping we could use a small cage for night time sleeping, feed and water and letting him come and go as he pleases would work, but reading the sticky on this forum about releasing hand reared birds - this doesnt sound like a good idea, what if he gets lost coming home and someone or something hurts him, or he cant find food etc. Any thoughts?? 

Dana


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, yes, you could use the supermarket ACV, as we are using it to shift the pH level of his food down to acidify it, 2 drops per 10mL.

Well, I guess it would depend on the sanctuary and how they are set up and what their policies are for pigeons, as not all places look upon these wonderful birds the same way we do here. Many people do end up keeping their rescued birds and just bide their time in trying to locate a larger cage, second hand, and they live as part of the family. A number of people also purchase what is called PGWear, which is essentially a diaper for them that they wear out of the cage to avoid having their droppings everywhere.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=470835&postcount=2
http://www.birdwearonline.com/index.html

You have bit of time, you don't have to decide today, let's concentrate on getting him growed' up a little more for now.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dana, 


With the 'Hand Beak', there is no opening the youngster's Beak, there is no getting them to open their Beak.


When they are being fed by their Pigeon Parents, the youngster inserts his or her Beak into the Parent's Throat, and, the Parent brings up a slurry of Seeds and Water from their own Crop, and, the youngster 'gobbles' this ( ie: opens his own Beak and thus admits food into their mouth/Beak, closes Beak and swallows, etc ).


One gets the youngster 'Nuzzling' in anticipation, in invitation to be fed, and, the youngster naturally 'gobbles' the ( in this case, dry ) Seeds which are being presented by gravity, to roll into their open-phase Beak, from the form and tactile sensation of the 'Hand Beak'.


They will 'gobble' just as well if guided to a small, deep, Bowl or Tea Cup of Seeds, ideally, small size Seeds.


I just got the 'Seed Gobble' going with a very very wangley sick PPMV young adult who can not eat at all, and, who has been on death's door for two weeks, but today, I felt he migt be ready for some Solid Food, so, intending to guide his Beak and try it ( usually it never works with Adults) and curiously, he beat me to it, diving his Head into the Seeds and 'gobbling' like mad without me having even guided or done anything...so, wow...he had a nice couple of meals, and is VERY happy about it too.

Babys or Youngsters take to this very readily.

Again, lightly moisten your finger tips in warm water...shake off the drops.

You then should have warm, moist, finger tips and finger tip pads.


From his front, gently grab his Beak, softly, between your finger tip ads, lightly massage it, slightly raise and lower your hand as you do so, thus raising and lowering his Beak and Head with it, in order to invite him to be fed.

Done even a little bit 'right', he wll understand, and, respond with enthusiasm.

Then keeping your finger tip pads on his Beak, guide it to some tepid Water for him to drink.


Get this down first so it is done reliably.

Once this is able to be reliably done, once he is responding with enthusiasm to the gesture, with 'Nuzzling', with Squeaking and Wing Flapping and so on, keeping your finger tip pads on his Beak continuously, or he will NOT drink and NOT 'gobble' since THAT is the 'tactile' simulation OF the Parent's Throat...

Do this from the "front", just as their Pigeon-Parent would.


Guide his Beak into a Tea Cup full of small, whole dry Seeds, and KEEP YOUR FINGER TIP PADS on his Beak as he eats, as he 'gobbles'.


Similarly, the 'Hand Beak' is a way of maintaining the tactile dimension, while logistically providing the actual Seeds themselves, also.


I can not remember ever dealing with any Baby or Youngster with whom this or these did not work well...and usually we are ding this five minutes after their being here or after a fast exam to determine if it is alright to feed and water them.


It is simply a very easy, natural, instinctive and effecient way for them to volentarily eat, and or, for us to feed them.



Unless illness or injury prevent it, anyway.

A) Get him asking to be fed, get him 'Nuzzleing', which shows he has unerstood and accepted the invitation.

B ) Guide the Beak to Water ( 'tepid' Water ) and perfect the operation of drinking.


C ) once those are in place well, guide the Beak into a Tea Cup of small, whole, dry Seeds and remember to keep your finger tip pads ON his Beak as he 'gobbles'...or, employ the 'Hand Beak' which perates of course more from above for the Seeds to be able to roll down and into his 'gobbling' little Beak.



I go through these steps with a new found orphan youngster and it takes maybe two minutes to go from nothing, to drinking, to seed gobble...to them squeaking up a storm asking for the next meal if I walk by.

They just need these things to be done in ways they understand, and, which are sympathetic to their Natural History, in order to to respond and participate.


They know what to do, and are delighted to do it, and are happy to make our Job easier on them and on us...our job with all of this, is to get our end figured out.


Good luck!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi Phil, I have a beautiful poop picture for you! It looks good hey?? No urates coz this one, to my daugters disgust , I scooped up & put on the table so you could see it properly. He has taken seed from my hand beak this morning and then he saw the fallen seed and began pecking away at it! YAY! My baby is growing up


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Woo-Hooo!


Yes indeeedy, when being fed via the 'Momma-or-Poppa-Hand-Beak', they DO tend to note the fallen Seeds, and, soon, sometimes very soon indeed, they feel the desire to start pecking at them, and, of course, getting them, too.


Glad to hear...


'Peck' with him, using your crook'd index finger, and he will enjoy it and be encouraged by it also...he will wis to show off to
you even, his new found skill with pecking, so, offer lots of praise and positive admirations.


Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, that looks like a real dropping, nice going! Keep up the good work.

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello again Phil & Karyn - I have just noticed that I am classed as a 'fledgling' now rather than a 'squab'. Very cool!  Don't think I will be handing out advice just yet though! Will leave that to you Matriarchs!!!

Just a quickie - Podgy has gone from being a real cheeper every time he is handled to becoming very quiet and settling down into the 'hand nests'. He still goes crazy when he sees his syringe feeder, so I'm not concerned that he is ill, just checking that his calmness is normal too. My 3 daughters had him on a towel on the floor today, next to them while playing. He pecked around at the furniture a little bit and then when my oldest got up and walked across the room, she discovered that he had followed her. I know this sounds cute but I am wondering if we are over handling? I find that when I put him near his box or the budgie cage we use for outside he jumps in quite quickly - he knows his 'nest'. He probably thinks "phew - peace and quiet for awhile!!" Do you two have pigeon 'house pets'? What is your thinking on this?

Regards,
Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, especially when the Nest is allowed to remin in one place, but, even if it is movable Nest...they do know their Nest and will repair to it once ambulating.


My situation here is different in various ways, since I am the only person here, and, usually, I have overlapping age Babys going on at the same time, so, they have their peers or in effect Siblnigs to be with or to act in concert with, as well as interacting with me.


And, there are Wild Adults in the ambience, and, as the youngsters assume their phases of independence, they readily look to or emulate the modes of the Wild Adults, and, leave off looking to me for things or modes to emulate or join in on.


Various individuals exceed others in their interest to try things I am doing, or to emulate details of things they see me doing.

One of the recent seven or so Babys who are now mostly self released and out in the World, was trying to play with, pick up, hold in his Beak, or involve himself with, various small Tools I had on a Bench.

He would watch me doing things with these Tools, and, when I would walk away, he'd fly over, and, try it out himself.I kept finding these small Tools on the Floor, and wondering what was going on, til finally, I saw him at it, and, was able to see him repeat it quite a few times.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, golly, some of the stuff they do is just so moving in it's way.


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

So Phil, do you let your birds go free when they are old enough? Do they hang around and continue to be fed at your 'hotel'? Have you found this works?
Dana


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

When do the babies start to fly??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Here, in my situation, they self-release, about in the same progression they would have, when gradually acheiving independence from their Pigeon-Parents.

A long fledgling period, then they go out on their own volition, come back in...stay out over night, back in for a few days...out, stay out a few days, back in a day...out, out a week, back in an hour or two...out, and, on from there as wild Adventurers.

I just let them figure it out, even as their Pigeon Parents would, so, I do not rush anyone.


Actually, my parentage is a little more easy going and patient and obliging, for the somewhat protracted Fledgling stage, than what Wild Pigeon Parents usually can do, but, works out the same overall.


In my case of course, they have to go out and join the Wild Birds on their own, to share forage and so on, since I can not myself Fly to bring them or have them follow me.
To some degree, they also see the Wild Birds in here fly off when the Big Door is opened, and, they get the drift.


I try not to feed the Wild Birds in my Workshop, and, thank goodness, there are only a few who live in here, and, they simply go out and fly and feed outdoors, down the street, returning later.


I don't know 'when' Babys start to Fly...Lol...they just grow up, Time passes, and, they go from being Babys to being young adults/adults.


Time...always seemed Accordian-like to me anyway...sometimes compressed, sometimes pulled out long, always wiggling, and, either way, that's how it plays it's tunes...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, here are the instructions for the Triple-Sulfa pills you bought. Please cut and paste these instructions, and then print them and put them and the Triple-Sulfa pills in a zip-lock bag and store in a cool, dark place in case you ever need them.

You will need to grind up one pill into as fine a powder as you can before use, I use a shot-glass and the end of a small kitchen knife to do this when I have to grind up a pill, you want to get it as fine a baking flour if you can.

Into this shot-glass add 10cc of pancake syrup to the pill you just ground up, this will be 2 level teaspoons, scrape it all in with your finger (1 teaspoon = 5mL, use a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware teaspoon). Now stir the syrup and ground pill very well together, cover and let sit for 15 minutes, stir very well again and it will be ready for use. You now have a 4.6% Triple-Sulfa suspension (46mg/mL) to dose with. 

You will want to give 0.10mg for each 100mg of body weight. If you are not able to weigh Podgy a good starting dose for an adult bird would be 0.30cc/mL twice a day (this is to the third line on a 1cc syringe and is roughly 6 drops, where there are 2 drops for each 0.10cc). Make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med to give each time you use it and keep it once mixed in the refrigerator between use. Just gently open the mouth and place 1-2 drops at a time in the front of his mouth and allow him to tongue it down

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dana, 



Any ideas on your side of why his poop went from 'Chinee Egg Drop Soup' one day, to picture perfect tidy the next? even is not showing much for well defined Urates on the tidy coil one?



What are the poops like presently? Images?



Phil
L v


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello again Phil & Karyn,

Thanks so much Karyn for the med details. I will certainly print and store with the drugs and then hope like crazy that I won't need to use them.

Here you go Phil, another poop photo - sorry I can't make them smaller, I don't know how to do that yet. I noticed that the white is a bit 'netty' again. Yesterday his poop was 'beautiful' (can't believe I am talking about poo this way! )They were nicely coiled with a white drop on top. No nets at all! 
YOu asked if I had any thoughts as to why? The only thing I can think of is the better formula, which I am only giving twice a day now and a seed meal at lunch time. This formula has probiotics and predigestives - it mixes better and smells good as an added bonus. (Just as a note - I have been making sure the temperature is correct before serving. I know a few people have been very specific about this and I wanted to set their minds at ease!) I have also made a solution of a tablespoon of ACV mixed with 600 mls of water & I have used that to mix his formula. 
This poop was from this morning, the others today have been quite good again. 

anyway, let me know what you think
Dana


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, I tablespoon of ACV to 600mL of water is going to be much too strong, this works out to over 6 tablespoons a gallon, you need to change the tablespoon to a teaspoon/600mL, which will bring it to a more appropriate level of a little over 2 tablespoons a gallon.

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

woops, thanks Karyn. Will change it right now
Dana


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Phil, this one is for you...



> For the time being, only have him eating Seeds with you 'pecking' with him intermittently, and, supervising him and offering praise and admirations to his pecking accomplishmens and to his growing up.
> 
> Be with him with his Pecking.
> 
> It is a social-emotional thing for them, and, with no sibling or Pigeon Parent to eat with them, it falls to you to do.


I have to tell you something really funny and you may be able to tell me what he is doing - 
When I put him into his feeding box and begin pecking at the seeds with my finger (are you sure your'e not pulling my leg??) he begins to peck right there with me. He has this funny wing flap 'thing' he does - almost like his way of showing his enjoyment of the process - usually only one wing flaps at a time. 

I noticed today that when my hand comes near him, he will peck at the seed right where my finger goes and he leans his body onto my hand, sometimes covering it with his wing. At one point my hand was on the side closest to the box. He pushed himself right up against my hand and 'forced' it into the side of the box. He actually leaned right over onto my hand - it was almost like he was trying to push me out of the way of HIS seed. He doesnt peck me or my finger though, just the seed. Very funny! Does this mean he is beginning to learn 'self-defence'? I would rather think that he is being affectionate! But I probably shouldnt expect human emotion from a bird - no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes me feel!! LOL

What do you think of his behavior? Have you seen anything like it before?

Regards,
Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dana, 


'pecking' with them is the perfect transition from hand feeding, and, of course, the two can overlap for however long also.


What you describe is what they do...they 'squeak' and shoulder-pump, and flap one or both Wings, usually one, while pecking, when at this age. It is exciting for them to be pecking, similarly to how it was exciting to them to be fed. And, they are happiest if their 'parent' is 'pecking' with them like that.


His pressing against your hand is a way of maintaining a tactile connection with you while eating, even if it is via the side or shoulder, instead of the Beak.

Or, in addition, it might merge into shouldering you away from 'His' Seeds in an easy friendly sort of way...but, more likely he is just pressing, and, because you move away from it slightly, he ends up inadvertenbtly pushing you to the edge of the Box.

Their Emotions/feelings are essentially the same as ours.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

NO harm if the ACV Water was a little stout...at that concentration it would be regarded as a Therapeutic cohcentration, which would be fine since we have had some concerns about possible Yeast issues in his GI somewhere.


Knocking it down to half that or 1/3rd that concentration of course is fine too.


Might just be his system is taking a little while to manage the intestinal flora and fauna symbiotes.


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Good mornng (or is it night time for you?)
7:15 am here. Anyway... what did you think of the poop picture? All going well?
Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dana, 


7:00 O'clock Anti-Meridians your time, is 3:00 O'clock Post Meridians here ( or, your message shows a Post Date of 3:16 PM anyway since those posting times are adjusted to one's settings for one's own Time Zone)...and I forget who is a day behind whom.


Poops and Urates all tolled are pretty good...the Urates really ought to be a firm 'paste' all together rather than being distributed on and among the fecal material.

This suggests to me there may be some slight Yeast issues in the lower GI or interior Vent or both.

He is happy, bright, energetic? no 'fluffing' of Feathers ( ie, looking like an Artichoke)..?


How many poops in 24 hours do you think?


Phil
L v


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello, here is the poop scoop from this morning. Oh, and a picture of two of my 'boys' ha ha. Can you tell that Podgy has been well and truly adopted??
Dana


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dana, you have good looking son there and Podgy looks right at home on his shoulder. Good looking dropping as well, by the way.

Karyn


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## Podgy's Mum (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello again,

A few more questions to help me care for my adopted pidge..

When I was at the feed store yesterday I noticed a large collection of various bird supplements - worming solution, mite and lice spray, vitamins & minerals etc. I am wondering what I should be using for Podgy to maintain his health. There really doesn't seem to be much information or even interest here in pigeons - i tried to access an Australian forum but it seems to have been closed down.  When I asked some questions regarding bird care at this major feed/pet supply I was directed to a young lady who breeds lovebirds - unfortunately she was also the one who recommended I take Podgy to the vet to get him put down when I asked for advice when I first found him. Very sad & discouraging. There were no books available to buy either. So I guess I will have to continue picking your brains on Podgy's care. At least you are all pigeon lovers, as I am fast becoming too 

He is doing really well, by the way. He flew from my shoulder to his 'house' two days ago - he wasn't able to maintain the height and belly flopped onto the lower shelf but we were all very excited! It was like having a new baby learn to walk . Then yesterday he was walking on the floor and I could tell by his posture that he was preparing to have a go at flying again. He tried to get up onto the table but wasn't able to get the height - won't be long though I am sure! 

Thanks everyone,
Dana


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good right kinds of Seeds...

Pigeon type Grit


Occasional minced, raw, Garlic...


Occassional fresh leafy Greens of the sorts peopole eat raw - Kales, Endives, Cilantro, Parseley, Chard, either where he may bits off little bits, or, finely miced for him to eat as is.


Occasional natural sources of Iodine, such as the kinds of Sea Weeds people eat, or, Purple Dulce...as is, or, powder forms which can be added to his Olive Oil 'glistened' seeds.


Olive Oil 'glistened' Seeds...


Brewer's Yeast occasionally added same way.


Direct outdoor Sunshine now and then.


Good Water


Exercise...


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