# Need to stop feeding large flock - how?



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

I need immediate help. I have been feeding a few hundred pigeons and sparrows where I work in an industrial area, for a few years. The landlord has threatened to poison them if I don't stop feeding them.

What is the safest way to stop feeding them, so they don't get sick or worse? I feel terrible about all of this, especially because it's the middle of winter here (today was 15 degrees).

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Rockie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Rock and a hard spot. You can just stop feeding. But the birds will probably still stay ther and find food else where. Then the owner will still do something. Could you trap them and relocate them. Then they wont be Destroyed by the land lord. How many pigeons is the flock size?


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## phantom (Dec 10, 2004)

If the landlord poisons the pigeons, then it could cause secondary poisoning of wildlife that may take advantage of the opportunity for easy food, by eating the sick pigeons. That can lead to some hefty fines, especially if he poisons a threatened or endangered species, such as a perigrine falcon.

Hopefully he will back off if you just stop feeding them, but at least you can let him know that if he causes the poisoning of federally protected wildlife, then he will face some serious charges.

I once read in Audubon magazine that if you stop feeding birds, they don't just die off, but will manage to find another source for food.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Rockie,

Welcome and thank you for caring for this large flock for so long. I am sorry for your predicament...many of us here have received negative attention due to feeding feral flocks.

I know this is not what you want to hear, but it would probably be best if you stopped feeding immediately. It is too bad that it is winter now, would have been better in the spring, but if the owner is sincere in his threats, your first concern is to try to get the pigeons to stop coming to his property, before he goes through with his plans. I know it will be heartbreaking for you, but you will probably be surprised by how quickly the birds will get the idea that "the kitchen is closed." 

I found an old thread that discusses this topic. One of our members, dano7, has "moved" flocks away from harm by literally "walking" them a few feet every day to a new feeding location. It takes some time, but he has been successful with his method. I believe he mentions it in the thread. Just click on the link to read what others have had to say about this topic previously:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=4844

I am sure other members will be along to offer advice or suggestions. Again, I am sorry you are going through this.

Good luck,
Linda


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As Lyn said it would be easier on them if a new feeding place was established nearby. 

Pigeons are resourceful and can survive a couple of days without food. This would enable them to find somewhere else to forage if you had to stop feeding overnight. Sparrows are much more vulnerable as they rely on each day's food to stay alive over night in winter. If they are accustomed to finding food at a specific location tghey would not have the time to find somewhere new. 

I have noticed that the large flocks that I feed are made up of various smaller groups that come from different directions. If I stop feeding them then they would probably disperse in their different directions and find enough food to survive.

I have had to stop feeding one artificial flock of 60 pigeons that I had created by regular feeding a couple of years ago. They used to line up on a specific building to await my arrival, and all fly towards me when they saw me. A week after I stopped feeding the pigeons stopped visiting that particular location. However in that case I was satisfied that they would survive because I could continue feeding in two other locations nearby and in the past had noticed the same pigeons visiting the different locations.

Cynthia


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Feeding Ferals ?*

I question wheather I should place my two cents on this subject. On one hand, I can ALMOST understand the frustration of the landlord. He niether understands, nor cares about the birds. He just wishes they would not take up residence on his buildings. If we remove our emotions, and pretend that these birds were starlings parked above our automobile. If everyday we came out to our car, and there were droppings all over our new car, we would be less then happy. Then imagine if someone was feeding them right next to our shiny new car, we might not appreciate that fact.
If I may dare ask the question, are we doing ferals a favor by feeding them ?
Let's try to remove our immediate emotions and pretend we are talking about feral cats. There are people in my area who feed them, helping them to reproduce, in order to bring more unwanted ferals into the community. The result is more death to more feral cats. Want to guess how many unwanted cats are killed each month by the SPCA ? So, did the well meaning person who fed them, "really" help stop suffering, or simply create more life to suffer ??
Food or lack of food, is part of the birth control mechanism for pigeons. If they are well fed, they will reproduce, even in winter. If they have slim food supplies, then there will be no babies. So, are we helping or hurting by feeding wild pigeons ?
My city banned the feeding of ducks at a local park. Besides the tons of extra droppings, the birds did not fly south. So, like or dislike, the new law, were people really helping the ducks, by disrupting nature ? One could ask the same question concerning other wildlife, such as bears, etc.
I ask this question, because I am assuming that whatever we do, will have an impact on feral populations, public image and laws passed. I am between a rock and a hard place. If enough people in my area started to feed ferals, the population could grow to such a level that all kinds of new laws could be enacted. Even laws forbidding the keeping of pigeons in my back yard.
Food for thought, I welcome your comments.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren several good points. Yes sometimes people help a problem get worse. But now the problem this person is having has got worse. Hopefully thwe birds will not be desroyed. I still think trapping and relocateing will offer a better chance for these birds. AS I think the owner may very well follow thru with his threats. Feeding pigeons for many is a time of peace and enjoyment. I think people need that. I understand that to much of a good thing can be bad. This case turned bad. But the birds have found a home there and will travel for feed and return sure some may go off on there own But most will still stay there. And its getting harder for flyers in towns and citys to keep birds laws have aready been past several places on how many can be kept and how many have to go or move. Sad for that.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Warren,

*So, are we helping or hurting by feeding wild pigeons?* 


Probably both....You do raise some good points....it is a dilemma.

I have never raised or owned any pigeons, I just feed and look after a feral flock that comes to me everyday. So, because of that, I think my outlook on this dilemma may be a little different than yours, you being a person who actually owns, breeds and races birds and who has a lot of money, time and effort invested in the pursuit. To me, the ferals that visit me have as much value as "real" pigeons that are "pedigreed" so to speak. I am sure if I were to walk in your shoes or that of another real loftkeeper, I would probably feel as you do.....just to be clear here ~~ if you do feel this way, I do not think you are wrong to do so. I would liken it to, say, owning a valuable prize winning champion Persian cat....of course you would think that your cat is very different from some feral cat digging in a garbage can and that would be very understandable.

It is a very hard question for me to answer. Bird feeding, especially in winter when food is scarce, is encouraged in a way. You can get wild bird seed in any supermarket, garden center, etc., each brand going out of its way to say it is the best for attracting cardinals, bluejays, songbirds, etc. And many people enjoy having these kinds of birds feed and visit their property....but no pigeons please!!! Unfortunately, people cannot pick and choose which hungry birds come eat...that is how I wound up with my ferals. We put out seed, mainly for the sparrows and such last winter, and of couse a few pigeons came too. The reason they attract so much negative attention, I think, is because you never get just a few coming to eat. They are smart, the rest of them find out about it, and before you know it, you have about 80 birds gathering to eat and that is a very, very visible sight. I know some of the neighbors don't like it and they could get me in trouble if they wished. Fortunately, I have been able to feed them early and then they go on their way...if they were to hang out for hours on end, that would be a problem.

Maybe I am not doing them any favors, but all I know is, in my gut, I cannot imagine much worse than being cold and hungry day after day. What a miserable life that would be. I feel the ferals have such a tough life as it is, if I can help them get through another day (especially in winter) without starving to death or freezing to death, as a result of being starved, than I hope I am helping them. 

Like I said, your points are valid and most likely, technically, you are right. I just sometimes have a hard time with my brain winning out over my heart.

JMHO,
Linda


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

So it's okay to keep breeding and culling for that perfect racer or show pigeon? It's okay to keep breeding dogs that are AKC approved? Even though we got the mutts out in the streets being euthanized because there's not enough homes for them. God forbid if we help the unwanted, typical. 
I get a little tired of I can do this but you shouldn't do that ****.
It just gets irritating. 
I know someone who smokes but then tells me pigeons spread diseases.
I can think of more things in the world to worry about then birds crapping on my car.
On the lighter side, I think Lin Hansen posted some pretty good options.

Sorry about that!
Kim


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Dilemma ?*

Probably both....You do raise some good points....it is a dilemma


You are certainly right to use the word "Dilemma", after all, I am very much a part of contibuting to the feral population. I have somewhat of a "Lab" experiment going on a few blocks from my home. The color and form of my local feral population has changed over the years due to offspring from my loft, joining for whatever reason, the local population. One only has to look at the ferals sitting on the telephone lines a few hundred yards from my loft, to realize that I have changed the complexion of the landscape so to speak.

That is not to mention the birds lost in training flights who have joined with other feral flocks. By and large, the feral population is blue bar and blue check. Now I am seeing reds and red checks, and red bars. The white tipplers I lost are also making an inprint.

A recent young bird smash race resulted in close to a 1,000 birds becoming lost. How, does just this one race, from this one combine, affect the feral population ? If you consider the dozens of combines and dozens of races, and thousands of lofts, one must wonder what 100,000-150,000 + racing pigeons, added to the feral population each year, does to the "Wild" population ? What moral responsibilty then do I have to the feral population ???

For me personally, who has tens of thosands "Invested" into my breeding loft, the "Feral" population represents many levels of "Dilemma". I am very much aware of my colony's impact on the neighborhood. Especially since a city councilman lives across the street. If a "Pigeon Lover" were to attract a feral flock to his back yard a door or two down, only to release droppings onto my councilman's car, I would be panicked.

Does anyone else see the dilemma I now see myself faced with ?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Warren,

~You~ know that you have changed the complexion of the feral landscape, so to speak, but I would be willing to bet big money that your councilman doesn't realize it. I am sure your birds are viewed differently than the ferals hanging out on the wires. But, I agree, if a problem involving pigeons begins to occur, you are probably right that you and your loft would be implicated or impacted, either fairly or unfairly.

So, yes, I understand what you are saying (I think) LOL. A negative pigeon situation occuring in your town could have negative consequences for you, right? Which is the reason why you are not too keen on people feeding the ferals, right? Like I said in my previous post, I understand and don't have a problem if you feel this way. We may have pigeons in common, but we are really on opposite ends of the spectrum with the different ways we are both involved with them. And, as far as I am concerned, that is okay. You have valid reasons to be fearful, you have much to lose if any major problems occur.

As I said, I think you have valid personal reasons for your opinions. I think those of us that are involved with the ferals do tend to be emotionally involved with the activity and the birds, so I hope as the discussion continues on this potentially "hot" topic, that we can all state our opinions respectfully and hash it out with level heads.

Linda


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Sigh...you guys gave me alot to think about. Yong


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

_"You are certainly right to use the word "Dilemma", after all, I am very much a part of contibuting to the feral population. I have somewhat of a "Lab" experiment going on a few blocks from my home. The color and form of my local feral population has changed over the years due to offspring from my loft, joining for whatever reason, the local population." _ 
Just curious Warren, do you contribute food to this feral flock that some of the offspring from your loft had joined? 

Cindy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Sharing Our Souls*

I confess, I have learned so much from this site. I also confess, that I have come full circle. Prior to joining this site, I thought I was a "Pigeon Lover". I have learned much from those who have laboured to save a "wild" pigeon.
Do I feed the feral flock blocks from my home, no I must say. Do I now feel a sense of guilt, ....yes. Now, if I was to feed them, and they grew from 30 to 120 to 240...at some point, I now realize that I could jepordize my own loft.
 The reason why I think this way, is because the feral population at 30 or so, do not bring attention to themselves. They live and reproduce based on what is availble to eat. Based on my small operation and food availalibity, I could produce and release enough birds into the local population, that with enough feed, could result in what "Most" people would refer to as an "Infestation".
All I would have to do is start out with 50 pound bags of "Pigeon Feed", I could graduate then to 100 pound bags. In time, I could indirectly cause the death of hundreds if not thousands of pigeons each month, simply by feeding them.
If however, I left things as they were, then the group of ferals down the street, would remain at about three dozen for perhaps, forever. Who can argue that feeding a wild population would not have an impact on their population ? If you live in a city and this results in 5000 or 10,000 more breeding pairs, how does this impact property owners ? Will this help or hurt our cause ?
I on the otherhand, can control my population through birth control. I can seperate the breeding pairs, or use dummy eggs. Through this method, I can maintain zero population growth for the rest of my life.

What we need is a chemical pellet that would provide our feral frinds perfect health along with enough natural hormones to prevent our ferals from successfully breeding. In my judgement, this would preserve the right of tens of thousands who keep pigeons as a hobby.

At any rate, we need not be on opposite sides of the isle on this issue. Just explain to me how growing a feral population is in the best interest of my birds sitting out in their loft. And the other 15,000 or so flyers who have "Investments" into their private breeding lofts.


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## traci_sss (Nov 24, 2004)

What a great question we have going.

I am on the both sides of the fence. I do believe that if I did not feed the wild birds around here all year long they would not survive our winter. 

We have a very small amount of seed producing plants and trees in my area and since it is winter more than any other season (at least that is the way it feels right now, with - 36 c temperatures.) I do feed the birds. We have many hawks and eagles and cats in our area and they do a fine job of controlling the population of the birds. I do hate to see that.

Twenty or so pigeons would sit on the roof of my parents house, wait for the next door neighbour to bring out dog food for their shephard, they sit and poop and wait for the dog to finish and then it was a free for all with his food. My parents were not impressed with the amount of poop on their house or their motor home and the pt cruiser that my mom just bought this year. My dad was going to do some very drastic measures, he does not appreciate the poop, but a simple conversation with the neighbour about feedin his dog inside and the problem solved it self within a few weeks. The birds realized the food source was gone and moved on.

I work at the spca so I see the amount of feral cats that come in, the best thing to do if you have a feral cat community in your area is trap the cats one by one and have them spayed or neutered. The community will always maintain their number if you remove a cat, they will quickly be replaced. If you spay or neuter a cat, you maintain their numbers. I do also feed the feral cats but if I don't they would starve and I drive my husband crazy with my 4 feral cats, they get fed once a day in the middle of the bush, and somedays they eat and somedays they don't . I have trapped all four and have spay 1 and neutered 3, well actually the vet did the dirty work. LOL. I value the life of animals and we don't do what we can with what we have who will. Most ppl I know don't. 

Just my two cents. I never want to offend or hurt anyones feelings please never take my post as that.


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## Poulette (Feb 5, 2002)

Rockie,
I know how you feel, this is very sad. Can you put food on your way to work in a park or a place where no human can blame you for this? The birds will certainlay find the new spots, they fly far each day to look for new food sources. I cared for an injured pigeon last year and released him in March. I see him almost every day since then, but at very distant places! I just moved my feeding spots in the last days because the neighbors were complaining about the poop. I don't see the pigeons each time, but I see their feet tracks in the snow and all the food is gone. It will take some days for them to adjust, but even if you don't see them, they will find the food! 
Suz.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> What we need is a chemical pellet that would provide our feral frinds perfect health along with enough natural hormones to prevent our ferals from successfully breeding. In my judgement, this would preserve the right of tens of thousands who keep pigeons as a hobby.
> 
> At any rate, we need not be on opposite sides of the isle on this issue. Just explain to me how growing a feral population is in the best interest of my birds sitting out in their loft. And the other 15,000 or so flyers who have "Investments" into their private breeding lofts.


Hi Warren,

Birth control for ferals is, I feel, another one of those yes and no questions. On the surface, it sounds like a godsend....no more excessive numbers of birds breeding and better health and more food for the birds that already exist. But, on the downside, would people, towns and cities, who consider feral pigeons a pest, nuisance and health hazard be tempted to overuse this method to control them right out of existence? Sorry, call me cynical, but I believe the answer is a definite yes.

Also, I would be surprised if anyone, even here at this forum, would be able to give you any good reasons why a growing feral population would be in your or any other flyers best interests. I am afraid its not. That is why I said, we have pigeons in common, but we kind of separate on this issue because our interests in pigeons lie in different areas.

Controversial topic, but a good one. Food for thought.

Linda


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

This is truly an interesting, yet bittersweet (to me anyway) topic.
The thread began with a member asking for help on how to eliminate a flock from being destroyed because he had a *heart* & fed them.

Warren stated in part:
_"At any rate, we need not be on opposite sides of the isle on this issue. Just explain to me how growing a feral population is in the best interest of my birds sitting out in their loft. And the other 15,000 or so flyers who have "Investments" into their private breeding lofts."_
By the same token:
How is it in the best interest of a feral flock to have some of your *'loft' * pigeons, as well as pigeons from 15,000 other 'lofts', join these feral flocks, for whatever reason? This only adds to the feral population & because of the unique coloring of some, attracts more attention.

I wonder how many times the general public has walked by a feral flock & noticed a particular pigeon(s) that stands out from the rest because of it's unique style/color. Yep, it's probably one of those 'loft' pigeons, who has joined the feral flock or the offspring of one of the loft pigeons who have become a soul mate to a 'feral'.  

Perhaps if those flyers who refuse to respond to a phone call informing them one of their birds has been rescued, would own up to their responsibilities & graciously accept the bird back, less loft pigeons would be placed back into the wild to try & 'find their way back home', many, to no avail so they do the next best thing & join a feral flock. 

I wonder if flyers in general have ever considered that all the Rockie's, Linda's, Cindy's, Kim's, Cynthia's, Terry's, etc., out there that feed the ferals are also trying to help those that have become 'lost' from the 15,000 flyers, rather than watch them starve to death.

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Great debate people! Very interesting from both sides. I am neither a feeder of ferals, nor do I raise show or racing birds so I'm right down the middle on this one myself. It's really a grey area for sure and nobody is truly right or wrong. I agree with Warren's points that it's best not to feed the ferals for several reasons. Such as creating an "artificial" population based on feed supplied by humans which is not in the birds best interest should these sources dwindle and cease to exist. But Lin brings up excellent points as well...like how these birds have a hard enough life and are constantly persecuted and destroyed as pests thus the small amount of help from some is beneficial to the ferals as a whole. I like the idea of birth control for ferals myself, though I'm not sure it would ever work or people would spend the time, effort and money to make it work. I don't believe that the feral pigeon population would ever be threatened though by such a method if it ever came into practise. The feral pigeons and our domestic pigeons' lives are so closely connected and intertwined. With the amount of pigeon fanciers who raise racing pigeons globally, they are almost ensuring the survival of the feral. Ferals are the "parents" of all domestic pigeons so their genes are in the domestics blood and vice versa. And like Warren said, how many domestic birds get lost and go wild every year that are contributing to the ferals general population exponentially. This is a very interesting discussion indeed and really makes one think of the chain reaction of every decision, choice and consequence of raising pigeons or feeding the wild ones.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I think two things come to light. When an area becomes to over populated owners get concerned. Then when people feed the flock thee they do not move on. And get larger. Its great that some will love feeding the ferals. I praise them. Here where I live We have lots of spilled grain. The birds wonder to the tracks and grain elevators to feed. Pickup small rocks for grit type on the road sides. And flock size very from a few to hundreds In different parts of town. The large building serve for more nest areas. Sighns bridges houses. Most are used for roost and nest. The birds move on to different areas of town when they need more room. join different flocks. Setup new homes. I really never see any pigeons going to the parks. Just at the different ares of feed. And differnt nest roost sites. They have little to no dependents on people. BUT other places the food is short. feeding helps. BUT when food is plentyful. breeding sets up. Less food less breeding. I still think a peace comes watching the birds as you feed them. And the fed birds become tamer to people. Its a catch 22. The feral pigeon is seen as a problem and seen as a thing of nature with its grace and wonder. Then home and building owners see it as a pest. bait it shoot it ect. Hawks move in for a easy food source. BUT the bird thrives on. its become a link to man kind. Useing structured sites as home. Bringing interest to thousand who start the wanting of a pigeon as a hobby. We can not control it for its free. Laws complaints and such. It still survives. Hard is the hobby. Laws get passed people have to get rid of there birds or move. It not understanding that people see one and not the other. This will not go away. But educating people on the difference of loft birds and wild birds help. And a feral means NO harm. It has the right to live nature gives it that right. People on the other hand see onesided views .Often for ther own need or insites. Part of nature is shareing. It is believed that we the people were put here to help and protect natures wonders. And only take what we need. Far surpassed that now. Image greed and the more of want set in. We the people are the real problem NOt the birds Not the animals. Now to help them Sometimes we must relocate them. To give them the safety Of life. From man who hates them. No answers to this problem. But perhaps if we returned to interesting people in something rather then hateing it. Then sharing its life wont be seen as wrong. GOT a little long winded. I have no true answer But that the people here Have does and will care for pigeons both in the wild and the loft. So at least though few. Help and understanding goes on. We are in this together By just a little bird called the pigeon.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*In The End....*

Just wanted you all to know, that my posts were designed to gain input for my thought process. After all is said and done, if a feral sits above my loft for a day or two and appears hungrey, I will feed him. Then again, I also was feeding feral cats a few yards from my loft.  
I justified that by telling myself that with full bellys they won't eat my pigeons. There are issues that I can think about from an academic and intellectual point of view, and some times in the end, I say to hell with it, and my heart wins out.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

some times in the end said:


> You got it Warren .. birds, cats, dogs, whatever . you gotta do what's right at the time.
> 
> Terry


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## rosey_love (Mar 21, 2004)

You could pick another spot to feed them, I dont know, ummmmm yea thats about all I have for an idea.


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