# urgent young crow questions



## overmarco (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi,

I have found a young crow, he was unable to walk or fly. I took it to a birds vet, it turned out the crow has a nasty infection on one the leggs joint. He is taking antibiotics, vitamins and painkillers for 4 days now.

The big problem is yesterday I have found a swealling on his head, between the back of its beak and the neck. By today it got to the size of a peanut and its not stopping. The only things that would grow in size so fast (48 hours) would be an insect bite (not the case since there's no external bite) or a ganglion.

So the questions are:
-do birds have ganglions?
-anyone encountered a similar thing?

Thank you


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What did the vet say the problem is?


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## overmarco (Jun 8, 2009)

Infection of the joint (right legg)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How about posting a picture?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi ,

I think you need to take it back to the vet or, as the vet has already examined him, ask to have a quick consultation on the telephone.

I would also double check the dosage that you were given for the antibiotics. I have known small animal vets prescribe the small animal dosage for birds, which is a lower dosage than birds need.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cynthia has givien you some good advice,overmarco.


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## overmarco (Jun 8, 2009)

*London vet needed*

Thanks everyone and sorry for the delayed update.


Here's an answer to my query about the swelling (for future use, in case someone has a bird with the same problem, user rook has provided these suggestions):

"Okay, the first disease I would think of is a tick, which draws blood and then grows rapidly.
A ganglion is very unlikely, because they are usually related to joints and get bigger slowly, and not by actively growing, but by increase of the amount of fluid they contain.
Allergic reaction is unlikely as well, as this is usually a systemic disease or reaction, and this would have killed the bird by now. A local allergic reaction is therefore unlikely, as the antibiotic being given to the bird is not applied as an ointment, isn't it?
It could be an abscess, as the accompanying joint problems could be related to an bacterial inflammation like salmonellosis.
Another disease to think of is a crop infection, like canker or trichomoniasis. This could lead to a crop perforation and / or swelling or abscess.
The last thing it could be I can think of is an air sac injury, where the air forms a bubble underneath the skin and continues to grow with every breath. This happens after being attacked by cats, for example. "


And here's a recap of my situation:
The bird I have is a carrion crow, most likely he was never able to use the lower part of his feet. This is usually the result of lack of calcium. At some point in time, because he was jumping on its hock joints, the skin snapped and it got infected. This is when I found him and took it to the vet.
At the first visit, the vet said one of the legs has a joint infection and prescribed antibiotics, cream, painkillers, vitamins and showed me how to bandage his leg. He estimated that one of the legs is good and once the infection is gone he will amputate the bad one completely. 
At home, I took a closer look and realized the other leg wasnt that better. I mean it wasnt infected, but the bird wouldnt use it, also some skin on the joint was missing and you could see the bone. So I bandaged both legs. After 3 days of treatment he developed a swelling on his head, between the back of its beak and the neck.
At his point I took it back to the vet. He did not know what the swelling is, so he put a needle in it, no fluids came out.
He closely examined the crow again, and assessed that the best option for the bird is to be put to sleep. This is because the crow will never be able to leave in the wild again as the second leg is no good also. I asked about the amputation and he refused to consider it as " this will mutilate the bird" and "its not fair to the bird".
I have no intention of turning this discussion into something about fairness, vets, philosophy of life or death, etc. This is a vet that does help birds a lot, he's a pigeon fancier and I was directed to him by people on this forum. So I do respect his opinion.
But I need to focus on my bird here.
After 10 days of medication and bandages changed every day, the infected leg does look better. The pink side of the wound on the joint is getting bigger and the yellow side smaller, that could mean the infection is reducing. The swelling also is about half of what it used to be. The crow is eating ok, he doesnt drink cause he doesnt know how but he does ask for water by opening its beak. He is alert and hopping around in its kennel (he's not jumping on hard floor, its a soft paper on top of a very soft and thick duvet). The other leg joint is kind of the same as it used to be, missing skin.

So here are my queries for today :
-anyone knows a vet in England that could go an extra mile and help my bird? (I dont mind traveling if there is hope somewhere) Probably a vet surgeon, I will pay for any treatment/operation.
-if the infection goes away, could the wound heal or it's unrealistic to expect that?
-is amputation from the joint an option, can a amputated leg heal (sadly, in London there are a lot of pigeons with missing toes, legs, hopping around so I wonder if a crow could do the same thing)? The lower part of the leg with the infection is reversed, the toes are pointing up, so its unusable anyway.
-Im gonna order some medication from my country cause here no one is giving me any meds without a prescription. Anyone knows the name of cream/balm that would help healing?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

hows the swelling on his neck? does the swelling change in size? is it possible it's his crop full of food you are feeding?
last summer i had a young crow come in with a very swollen broken leg that had already started to heal.
he had no use of his leg and had no deep pain sensation in his foot or lower leg, my vet was willing to do an amputation but i delayed it to contact some other rehabbers that specialized in crows.
they all told me crows do horrible with one leg even in captivity and the other leg will suffer for it and will take them down.
so amputation in my opinion isn't an option for crows.
on the up side my crow did get better, i didn't have the heart to put him down right away and he was keeping another crow baby i had company.
after a couple of weeks i noticed he was standing pretty well but resting on his ankle so i checked his foot to see if he felt anything an he did! 
he needed to wear a shoe for a few weeks to get the toes in the proper direction, and his foot was never as strong as the other but not enough to prevent release back to the wild.
so do not lose hope yet.
as far as why his legs are the way they are, i suspect metabolic bone disease which is reversible.
the easiest way to to it is gross but you should feed him only adult frozen mice (thawed of course and cut into proper sized pieces), they have all the calcium, vit d and other nutrients your guy needs to overcome this disease and grow healthy and strong.
make sure he gets plenty of natural daylight or use a *new* quality uva reptile or bird light to process the calcium he needs.
if you want to confirm mbd an xray can be done to see the density of his bones.
as far as meds and vets go in your country i have no idea what is available for you.
if he was in my care i would be giving him oral baytril and for at least a few days i would give him meloxicam for pain and inflammation.
caring for the wound itself i would rinse daily with diluted chlorhexidine and use topical bacitracin ointment.
some of these drugs you can find online at pigeon supply places and antibiotic ointment you can get at a pharmacy and possibly the chlorhexidine


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

can you post pics?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh and he will eat a lot of mice a day and should have all he wants to eat a day


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the update. If it is the vet I think it is I have known him to change his decision about euthanasia after some thought. He is a kind man and will ponder and research.

I am going to e-mail you the details of two vets that have experience of wildlife and that have carried out surgery on my birds...they are both in different parts of the country, a long way from each other and a long way from you. What I would suggest is that you explain where you are and ask to speak to them first, describe what you have told us and what the vet you consulted said and ask whether they would operate. The first one carried out surgery on Danny who was losing both feet, that was something like 7 years ago...tell her Danny is well. And be clear about any long term plans that you have for the crow.

I believe that there is a crows group somewhere, but it is by invitation only. I will see if I can find a contact.

Are you on Facebook? There are many people that I know on FB that could advise.


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## wildlife-rescue (Nov 28, 2008)

Hi, we have seen a number of juvenile crows this year and many of them are definitely suffering with calcium deficiency. One of the worst I've seen is one who came in with his legs tucked up underneath him. He was unable to stand at all and both hock joints were swollen. We did try to harness him and straighten the legs whilst feeding him on defrosted chopped D/O chicks. Sadly, as happens in 50% of cases like this, especially where the condition is severe, the joints fused and the bird had to be euthanased as he would never have walked on them.

Amputation is not an option in crows as they use their legs to spring up from the ground to gain flight and are obviously a heavy bird which needs to weight bear and distribute weight on each leg. 

Whilst you have undoubtedly done a great job so far, I do think that if the problem can't be resolved, the bird should be put to sleep as the joints are going to become repeatedly infected.

I would recommed that you take the bird to St Tiggywinkles in Haddenham if you can. You will have to hand the bird over, but they are extremely experienced with treating this particular condition. They can be contacted on 01844 292292.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Anyone knows the name of cream/balm that would help healing?


F10 ia a good one.

Cynthia


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

the silence is killing me, i keep checking this thread, i wonder if they chose to put him down


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## overmarco (Jun 8, 2009)

The crow is alive and eating well. I am not putting him down or giving him away.
I hope I will get him into a state that would not require everyday bandages and taking care of him would be a one person job.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh good, please update us, we neeed pictures!!


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## overmarco (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi,

Here's a video of some lesions in the crow's mouth. Does this look like canker?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGiaxxbJCBQ

Thank you


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yep. Sure does. Do you have canker meds?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I can't see well enough on that video to even make a guess and am wondering whether anyone on this forum has hands-on experience of canker in crows.

Canker is not common in crows and if it is the lesion at the front of the lower beak that you mean, a lesion there would be rare (but not impossible) as the organism is too fragile to survive there and to appear spontaneously with nothing in the throat or the back of the mouth.

Everything yellow in the mouth is not canker. It could be a yeast bud, pox, fungal infection...it really needs a vet to have a look at it, check the smell, check the effect on the surrounding tissues, examine a swab under the microscope. 

The other thing that concerns me is that the clinical signs of canker appear 6 days after infection. It has been a lot longer than that now.

Have you asked rook about this? His background and experience would be useful here! Or maybe you could take it up to Wildcare and ask someone to have a look for you without requiring you to sign the bird over?


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## 12788 (Nov 15, 2008)

Feefo said:


> I can't see well enough on that video to even make a guess and am wondering whether anyone on this forum has hands-on experience of canker in crows.
> 
> Canker is not common in crows and if it is the lesion at the front of the lower beak that you mean, a lesion there would be rare (but not impossible) as the organism is too fragile to survive there and to appear spontaneously with nothing in the throat or the back of the mouth.
> 
> ...



Hi,

Thanks for the PM, and sorry for the delayed reply. I watched the youtube video, and what I can see is that the throat is looking very red (inflamed) and is also showing yellowish patches or lesions. At the first glance it looks like canker or trichomoniasis, which is however rarely seen in crows. 

To be honest, I am still puzzled with the timeline and description of symptoms given. First there was a swelling at the back of the head. Well, the back of the head is not the throat or crop area, isn't it? Sorry for being a bit thick. In the video one can see internal and external lesions, am I right? So this is not not the same lesion then, the one the vet has tried to aspirate unsuccessfully, and the one one can see on the outside of the crop? Theoretically canker can start in the crop not being visible straight away in the mouth or upper throat. It is smelly though, and can perforate all structures close by, including skin, trachea and roof of mouth. Don't touch the lesions though, as heavy bleeding can occur. 

I have seen similar joint problems described in several crows I have had in my care so far. As described in this threat before, malnutrition is a common cause for that, poisoning (indirectly by being fed poisoned food or food containing agricultural chemicals) another. Inherited problems (fused hock joints) are possible as well (x-ray is needed to find out bony abnormalities, fused bones or variants, which normally can't be treated successfully). Calcium deficiency can be treated (with calcium substitutes, or cheaper and safer regarding overdosing with grinded snail shells), but it takes quite a while (weeks to months) until obvious progress is being made. Physiotherapy is crucial and helpful if the bird is used to be handled. Different sizes / diameter of very low level perches can be used to put the bird manually on to those perches several times a day for a couple of minutes. If joints are not being exercised, they will get stiff and might fuse, as mentioned before. Ligaments and muscles get atrophic and can't function properly anymore etc. etc. Malnutrition also means that all essential vitamins should be substituted for a while at least. 

If diet and medication (minerals and vitamins) are not optimal, the bird will remain in a bad state and might develop secondary diseases related to his/her compromised immune system. This is, where canker could occur at a later stage, as the bug (flaggellate protozoan) is part of the normal mouth and throat fauna of many birds, normally not doing any harm, unless birds are getting poorly for one or the other reason, or are otherwise immunocompromised (to many and wrong antibiotics can trigger that as well). 

Sorry for the long essay. One last comment, I think you might need help from an experienced rehabber or trustworthy vet to find out what is really going on, that you can treat the cause and not only the symptoms. Good luck!


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