# sour crop ?



## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I have had a pigeon for 1.5 days which seems to have a full (distended) crop.
I picked him up because he was ruffled up and reluctant to fly.
I medicated for canker coccidiosis.
He eats very little and his crop looks bigger than a normal fed pigeon.
He doesn't move much.
Today he was trying to regurgitate, like they do when feeding babies or before kissing.
Cynthia has provided me with some sour crop tablets, should I give him some?


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I just read that sour crop should result in a bad smell - my pigeon's beak doesn't smell.
There are some traces of white both in the lower and upper beak.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pigifan,

It won't do any harm to give him one of the tablets, I haven't used them but John got them from a fancier that swears by them. I think that the main ingredient is activated charcoal.

According to Colin Walker (the Flying Vet) , most cases of slow crop are caused by canker, so continue with the Spartrix.

When my Woodie's crop wasn't emptyinm the vet prescribed Spartrix and Nystatin. Unfortunately we can't get Nystatin without a prescription.

Sometimes a few of drops of liquid Paraffin helps.

It is possible to empty the crop and flush it, I have never done that so I will leave it to those who have done this to explain how they went about it.

Good luck

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Pigifan,

The condition you describe crop/GI stasis can be life threatening and should be addressed as soon as possible. The problem you are seeing with what you are calling sour crop may just be that, but may also indicative of something wrong deeper down in the GI track, in the proventriculus, ventriculus or the intestinal track. 

I don’t know your skill level with regards to treating, but I would first remove all food right now and see if you can get some warm water into him, say 5-6cc. I would then massage his crop to see if you can break up whatever is in there that may have him stopped up. The water will also provide a vehicle to help him regurgitate the crop contents if what is in there is too thick or hardened for him to get up, if this is what he was trying to do.

If this does not work to get things moving, the next step would be a crop flush/wash which I will not describe how to do right now , but if what I described earlier does not help, this is what will need to be done. The procedure itself is fairly straight forward, but there is a real danger the bird could asphyxiate and die immediately from the contents of the crop going down the wrong way or go on to develop pneumonia if even a little of the contents gets into his lungs if it is not done right. This is best left to a Vet to do.

The very best thing you could perhaps do would be to get this bird to a Vet ASAP, as even if the crop gets emptied the bird may need fluid therapy, as the GI stasis will cause dehydration, moreover, the Vet may be able to make the best determination on the treatment and medicines necessary to get him well again.

I hope this helps for now and good luck with him,

Ron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pigifan, 


Can you tell us how the crop 'feels' to your fingers?

Is it 'slushy' and dense?

Is it 'firm' and not 'slushy'?

Is it 'gassy' or inflated feeling? Like it has air in it? Or has air in the top half?

Has the Pigeon made any poops? And if so, would you describe them in number and consistancy?

Have him on a light colored Towell, in a Warm Cage ( Heating Pad) to both make him more comfortable, and to make the poops easier to see and count.

If he is pooping, then his system is probably managing to deal with things, but I would still Treat him presently for various possible illnesses or conditions.


My own prefered reginem for any of the above, is to use the ACV-Water, ( Three Tablespoons of Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, into a Gallon of good Water - and this then for his drinking Water ) and in most Winter occasions, I offer it 'warm', warming it each time in it's little bowl, by sitting it in a pan of warm Water first, so it will be comfortable and not chilling, for the sick Bird to drink...

And, as others have pointed out above, he probably has something else or something more going on than 'just' that his Crop may not be emptying in a timely way...and Canker is sometimes such a culprit, or having eaten some bad or inappropriate food ( or a foreign non-food object, ) could have messed him up with no Canker involved. Candida can cause a Crop Stasis and sometimes bruising or injury can also...so, let us know on those poops...and keep him warm!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Thank you all for your quick replies.

The crop has emptied.
It was getting less distended even before I gave a sour crop tablet.

The crop was soft and slushy.
The number of poops was normal but they weren't as firm as a healthy pigeon (but I think ferals have runnier poops than my own "domesticated ferals" that are fed better food).
The dark bit in the poops was slightly darker than normal (even before the charcoal tablet).
In the lower crop or area below (stomach?) there may be something harder which is not the hard bit of the trachea or larynx that protrudes but I am not sure.

I will try some water. Luckily, today I bought Apple Cider Vinegar for me, and then I came to the forum to find out it would be useful for the pigeon too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I had one out in the loft come down with something that caused some GI stasis--almost nothing moving through with the tiniest blob of bile and some urates. His crop was jam-packed with seeds for over 24 hours so I brought him in the house and ran the standard battery of tests (fecal float, fecal smear, crop swab) but no worm eggs, no coccidial oocysts, no apparent fungal budding yeasts or hyphae and no trichomonads--just motile short rod bacteria.

I gave him some Baytril for that augmented with Metronidazole (it DOES gets some anaerobes that Baytril won't get, you know, so it's an excellent combination) but he'd throw up every time I gave him anything. But he wouldn't throw it all up and it was obvious that he needed to. There was too much field corn and it didn't smell good at all. So, I tubed water in him a few times in order to get him to throw up more and more. He finally got it all up and then we began antibiotic treatment in earnest. After about three days, he's doing great and I let him back out in the loft although he's still getting him daily meds.

It may simply be that he ate too much corn and it logjammed on him. When their systems stop flowing for whatever reason, things can start going bad en masse. When I let him re-start eating, I only let him have small seeds. I let him starve for a couple of days (and he really did want to eat badly) and drink just water before I let him start eating again. He's back to his old self now (he really didn't lose any weight on this venture but he would have given some time) but I'll have to keep an eye on him for awhile. 

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigifan said:


> In the lower crop or area below (stomach?) there may be something harder which is not the hard bit of the trachea or larynx that protrudes but I am not sure.


Their stomachs are actually more back between their legs as you're looking at the bird. That is, it's within the rib cage deep inside. The only thing that you feel on the outside in front of their shoulders and breasts is the crop.

Pidgey


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I was thinking that if it was due to overeating there should be a bad smell - there isn't.

Also now that the crop has emptied I think this is quite a light bird for his size.

You can feel the breastbone (but you can do this in many ferals).
He is not too skinny though.
Still quite lethargic . The emptying of the crop hasn't brought about a change in mood.

Should I give Baytril as well?
Is metronidazole similar to spartrix ?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Once upon a time before I'd established my lab, the way to go in the hard cases was to shoot them with the big four (Canker, Coccidiosis, Worms & Bacterial) right off the bat just to cover the bases. Frankly, when it comes to very sick birds and you or they don't have much time, that's not a bad strategy as long as a few rules are followed. Many of us have grown more conservative because we've seen them go back to their flocks a seemingly healthy bird and then disappear within a few days or weeks. Since I've kept many long-term in the loft, I'm well aware that they can end up being immuno-compromised for awhile after an aggressive treatment plan and need some time with no stress to get their immune system back on its own recognizance before they can safely be released.

So... what's that white stuff in the mouth look like?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, yes, Metronidazole and Spartrix are very similar drugs in the same family, and are used for the same thing (anti-canker, but they also have some activity against some anaerobic bacteria). You wouldn't normally use them concurrently unless you literally didn't have enough of either to do the job in a given dose.

Pidgey


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

The white stuff looks like it's just a beak discoloration. It doesn't look like it is an extra layer, different from the beak. I just mentioned it because I found it in a site. I don't think it's yeast/bacteria.

I don't have metronidazole but I use Spartrix.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Spartrix is Carnidazole, by the way. Most of the anti-cankers are in the Nitroimidazole family. Some are safer, some aren't. Dimetridazole (Emtryl) is one that wasn't. So, these white spots are on the inside of the beak on the parts that oughta' be pink, huh?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Pigifan,

I am glad to hear his GI track is moving.

I am in agreement with Pidgey and I think Phil has also mentioned that when there are problems with GI stasis if it is at all possible, to let them go a day or two wihtout food and just the ACV water to help clear things out. With the lack of conclusive tests as to the cause of the problem I don't think it would be a bad idea to add the Baytril along with the Spartrix. By the way do you have a weight and age on this little one? 

All the best,

Ron


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I gave (organic) apple cider vinegar warm water (5cc) and Baytril.
I had given Spartrix 6 hours ago.

I think these white spots are on the outer edges ( periphery) of the beak. 
I think they are in the otherwise dark area. Some could be in the pink area.
To my untrained eye they just look like a variation in colour. 
I have a pigeon that has 2 white toenails and the rest are black - I suspect something similar.

As you have to open the beak to see them I'll check again tomorrow because I don't want to disturb him again, he looks very tired and normally his bedtime (if he were outside) should have been 6 hours ago. That's when it gets dark here.

I guess he is approx 300 gr.
I think I would normally expect 350-400 gr for a larger (male) feral like him.
The PMV victims I normally find are about the same weight but they have been having some difficulty in getting enough food and they have been slightly smaller.

He is not a squeaker and he must be over 3 months old, possibly over 6.

He could be an old bird.


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

As far as food is concerned he is not interested in the seeds although the crop is now empty.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Must have something going on. Let him have access to water but don't force-feed him for a day at least. Give the meds some time to work.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

pigifan,
You should know that Baytril and Spartrix can cause yeast infections and if this bird has a yeast infection, this is going to make it worse. Crop stasis is many times due to yeast infection. 
I don't know what is the matter with this bird but medicating without knowing could do more harm than good.


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Is there a way to treat yeast infections?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes, you can treat yeast infections, but you don't know if the bird has it, so I wouldn't add another medication.

Reti


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

What are the symptoms of yeast infection, eg. colour of poops, smell ?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

There are really no obvious symptoms of yeast infection, the bird just doesn't feel right, won't eat, the crop might be slow to empty. If it gets really bad he might have bad breath and secretions.
A vet would be able to make a diagnosis.

Reti


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Pigifan,

The standard medicine to treat yeast infection is Nystatin also know as Medistatin, a Vet will usually do tests for budding yeast and start with this med and move to something stronger, a systemic such as fluconazole, itraconazole if this does not work. This drug, Nystatin, works by killing yeast on contact and is not a systemic, meaning it is not absorbed by the body. What Phil has suggested, the ACV water, at three tablespoons a gallon is more a therapeutic dose of ACV and it really is a good natural way to treat for yeast.

As I said, in the absence of tests you will be treating with a broad spectrum antibiotic, a canker med and a natural yeast treatment right now and watch his condition closely.

Right now I have a bird in with GI stasis issues that I did have my Vet examine and do tests on, doing tests I believe would be best as well if possible on this bird. He did find some budding yeast and started treatment with Nystatin. After 2 weeks of no improvement he started the bird on itraconazole (Sporanox). Again, after 2 more weeks of no real improvement he decided to redo the crop smears. This time I had him send some to his outside lab to culture as well. The results came back, Pidgey you may find this interesting, positive for both Pasteurella and Streptococcus. So he is on a broad spectrum antibiotic, Chloramphenicol. It seems the yeast was a secondary infection.

Anyways, please keep us informed.

Ron


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

By the way I noticed his heart rate is quite a bit faster than normal.
He also breathes faster than most other pigeons.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, they can have those in 'em too. The streptococcus is actually a pretty normal inhabitant of the GI. That stuff's more insidious when it gets into a wound, especially when it gets into the fascia. The word "streptococcus" means a bacterial that's spherical (coccus) and tends to link together in strings like in a "string of pearls" (strepto-). I see them occasionally in poop smears. The Pasteurella you don't want if you can avoid it, though. The Pasteurella that we normally warn about is when Pasteurella multocida gets systemic but there is a disease common to birds that's generally called "fowl cholera" that's based on Pasteurella multocida that's been ingested or breathed in:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26650--,00.html

I'm not sure if that's the same thing or presentation as the one we're normally guarding against with pigeons but it's certainly possible.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigifan said:


> By the way I noticed his heart rate is quite a bit faster than normal.
> He also breathes faster than most other pigeons.


Breathes how much faster? Time the breathes per minute with a watch.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pigifan, 


It does sound like he may have some order of infection, and a regimen of 'Baytril' might just be a good idea.

Are you keeping him "warm"? Best if you do you know...

The ACV-Water if fine to continue with regardless of other Meds, and I would recommend you consider to keep him on the ACV-Water for the next week-and-a-half or two weeks.

Probably, letting him fast a couple three days would be good also, but if by day three he seems interested in Seeds, then letting him have small ones should be fine.

If by then he is still not interested, then ask us about Tube-feeding, because he just might need it.

But the 'breathing' and lethargy if not from 'yeast' problems, might be from infection...if not other illness...

Do you have a Vet you could bring the Pigeon to for some simple tests?

Too, you can send off fresh poops to 'Foys' Pigeon supply, call them first, but they can do a fast analysis and tell you what they see.


Ron's mention of his Bird having had Pasturella and Strep is a sobering reminder for these otherwise ambiguous presentations.


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Sadly he died during the night 

Thank you all for your interest and time.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Pigifan. It sounded so hopeful. 

Pidgey, you said:



> Metronidazole and Spartrix are very similar drugs in the same family, and are used for the same thing (anti-canker, but they also have some activity against some anaerobic bacteria). You wouldn't normally use them concurrently unless you literally didn't have enough of either to do the job in a given dose.


A lot if us, including rehabbers with years of experience, use this combination for severe canker and it is very effective. It was also prescribed by my vet. Others complete the 3 day course of Spartrix and then follow up with Metronidazole for up to 10 days. Ali Black's vet told her that one tackles the protozoa and the other the canker lesions, but I have not read of this anywhere or heard it from any other source.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pigifan, I am very sorry to hear this bird did not make it, I was hoping it would.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigifan,

When they start breathing faster and faster (usually over a period of hours), it's almost inevitable that they're beginning to die. They're normally going to be running about 30 breaths per minute when they're not doing anything but standing around. When you see them crank it up to 60 and 90, it's bad and usually way too late.

Cynthia,

It's one of those deals where you can't do it over several times to see how many different ways worked. That's why in labs they try to find genetic strains that give such repeatable results so that they can come close to doing that very thing.

However, Metronidazole has the added affect of moderating the immune response. Canker (the clinical presentation) is part due to an organism that does a little damage and part due to an immune response that's gone WAY overboard. In other words, a lot of the bad effects simulate an autoimmune disorder. Both of the drugs are Nitroimidazoles and a lot of them have varying degrees of activity against trichomonads per se, Metronidazole being one of the lesser ones. But, Metronidazole is also one of the stronger ones for moderating the immune response. So, that plays in nicely with what you just said. I guess I'm referring more to the habits of people who keep pigeons but only keep minimal drugs around for treating them and not the rehabbers like us--it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we're not normal.

Pidgey


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Breathing was twice as fast as normal but the thing that got my attention was the heart beat which was really fast for at least 3 hours.

It's so sad when they close their eyes and wait to die.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pigifan, I want you to know I am so sorry your pigeon died. It is always so hard to lose one.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm sorry the little one was unable to overcome his illness pijifan.  
Thanks for helping him as best you could. 

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigifan, thanks for being there for this unfortunate one in time of need. 

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> However, Metronidazole has the added affect of moderating the immune response. Canker (the clinical presentation) is part due to an organism that does a little damage and part due to an immune response that's gone WAY overboard.


Thanks Pidgey, that makes perfect sense!

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Canker (the clinical presentation) is part due to an organism that does a little damage and part due to an immune response that's gone WAY overboard.
> 
> Pidgey


Some of the strains of canker are so deadly as not to be characterized by only
doing 'a little damage'. There may be no blanket statement about 'a little damage' that works as a description of the disease as a whole without qualification.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I could be wrong , but as far as I understood it Pidgey didn't mean that canker does a little damage but that although the protozoa do little damage it is the body's response, which causes the lesions which block the esophagus and wind pipe and eat into organs and other parts that causes the damage.


Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The concentration of the trichomonads are in the lesions themselves regardless of the varying intensity of a given strain. There are over forty strains and some more capable than others of doing 'big' damage due to the deadliness/aggressiveness of the strain.

fp


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2007)

Folks, try not to get caught up in semantics. As soon as the canker breaks through the mucous membrane anywhere in the body, it becomes deadly. It could take a week or a month or a few months but bacteria is going to penetrate into the area and if it isn't the canker that will kill the bird, it's the bacterial infection that will. A little damage..a lot of damage....it will eventually kill the bird.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Folks, try not to get caught up in semantics. As soon as the canker breaks through the mucous membrane anywhere in the body, it becomes deadly. It could take a week or a month or a few months but bacteria is going to penetrate into the area and if it isn't the canker that will kill the bird, it's the bacterial infection that will. A little damage..a lot of damage....it will eventually kill the bird.


Well, speaking of "communication" - from what you stated:

A. All canker OR a seconary bacterial infection as a result of canker *KILLS*. 

B. All birds who get canker and possible secondary bacterial infection *DIE*. 

If that is what you meant...I disagree...

- You are a new member, popping into PT like gangbusters. 
- You have posted information that shows you have had some background and/or experience with various pigeon diseases/ailments. 
- You make blanket assertive statements. 
- You have the courage of your convictions. 

I give up...ARE YOU AN AVIAN VETERINARIAN? 

If you are, you are arrogant. If you are not, you are STILL arrogant. Your "bedside manner" leaves a LOT to be desired. 

If I were a new member posting about their sick pigeon, your comments would scare the living daylights out of me! 

Are there situations that our long term medical advisor members know may be hopeless? Yes, of course. That does not mean they will not do all in their power to help - against all odds! 

*AND, GUESS WHAT - HOPELESS CASE BIRDS DO make it to survive and lead long and fulfilling lives!*

The above comments are STRICTLY MY OWN OPINION. 

The site can always use help! My reaction has to do with HOW that information is presented.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> The concentration of the trichomonads are in the lesions themselves regardless of the varying intensity of a given strain.


Are they? I am not challenging you, just curious. I have heard the lesions described as "spent leucocytes" and did a lot of research to check whether the lesions contained anything else, but never found the answer.

Nooti told me to drizzle Metronidazole on the lesions, which suggests that there may be protozoa in there.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> As soon as the canker breaks through the mucous membrane anywhere in the body, it becomes deadly. It could take a week or a month or a few months but bacteria is going to penetrate into the area and *if it isn't the canker that will kill the bird, it's the bacterial infection that will. A little damage..a lot of damage....it will eventually kill the bird*.


It should be noted that if a bird is properly treated for canker, their chance of recovery is usually good. 
In some advanced cases & those that are not treated, their demise *is *certain. 

Cindy


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2007)

Cindy,
Thanks. That was exactly what I was trying to convey.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Are they? I am not challenging you, just curious. I have heard the lesions described as "spent leucocytes" and did a lot of research to check whether the lesions contained anything else, but never found the answer.
> 
> Nooti told me to drizzle Metronidazole on the lesions, which suggests that there may be protozoa in there.
> 
> Cynthia


Yes, there is a concentration there in the lesion and specifically at the base of that lesion. Should the tissue break down/through, the trichomonads can be carried to other atypical areas in the body through the bloodstream to continue the disease process as wet or internal canker.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks fp.

I also found this link which goes into a lot of detail and confirms that the trichomonads will be seen in smears from the lesions. It makes sense, of course as they spread from pigeon to pigeon so easily through beak-to-beak contact, food and water

*WARNING, this link has a distressing necropsy picture!*

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27288--,00.html

Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2007)

Cynthia,
I recently spoke to a vet who said the same thing...to put some medication on the lesion itself. I can't figure out how that can help. (It certainly couldn't hurt.) What is on top, is probably the equivalent of a soft scab with the trichomonad colony way under what we see. Why would medication seep through? Sure, it would kill some trichomads lying on the surface but in my mind, it wouldn't do a thing to the organisms lying far beneath. In my mind, it's more important to hit this through the blood stream.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm thinking that there is something to treating topically in terms of maintaining
the advance around the edges of the lesion into new tissue. There are still trichomonads found in the cheesy growths even though the concentration of the organism is found deeper where the burrowing is occurring.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, I really like that link on canker, and have seen it before. I think of the comment there about the organism surviving for five days on some grain and all
I could think of was the scenario where a pigeon w/canker in the crop vomits up some seed that has had the time to soak up lots of fluids in the crop and this is how the trichomonad(s) is/are able to survive for such a long period of time on 'some moist grains'.
Otherwise, it's hard for me to fathom without a major cerebral gear shift.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My, but I see there's been a lot of energetic, spirited debate since the last time I dropped in on this thread. Okay, so we're all used to seeing the effects of canker in the gross examination. Now, would somebody be good enough to describe in detail exactly how the little devils do the dirty deeds on the microscopic front? Or, when you treat a bird with canker with Metronidazole and the bird gets over the canker but trichomonads can still be found later, anyone care to speculate on what happened?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have tended to treat canker like I drive a car, I know what works but not how or why.


Cynthia


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2007)

Pidgey,
I don't personally have all the answers but one thing is for certain. There are always going to be remaining trichomads, very strong ones, that can survive treatment. I guess all we can do is to eliminate a lot of them in order to allow the body to regain dominance over the survivors. This is like coccidiosis where we know we can't kill all of them.

I can tell you from personal experience that Metronadazole is not as strong as other meds and there is a definite advantage in treating the illness with that plus a drug like Spartrix. The Metronadazole will also act as the antibacterial agent and that's good.

How does the organism eat tissue? This is pure guesswork but I think what may be happening is that the trichomonads exude their fluid which is toxic to cells. The cells die and the protozoans can then take nourishment from the organic residue. White blood cells rush in to stop the bacteria and the swelling that's happening from irritated, swollen tissue and wind up being part of the cheesy mass we see.


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I forgot to mention that I did a necropsy and I found that there were quite a few seeds in the crop and half a French frie which was covered with mould and the mould spreading to the surrounding area.

So it must have been a yeast infection that killed him.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil had one once that coughed up a french fry after a period of crop stasis. It might be more likely that the french fry stopped up the drain.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

What colour was the mould? When you say it was spreading to the surrounding area do you mean the lining of the crop was mouldy?

He could have died of the toxins produced by the mould:

http://www.mycolog.com/molds.htm

Cynthia


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

It was dark blue and there also was some white paste.
The paste could have been broken down food.

There was some "touching" the lining of the crop but it was no stuck to it so I guess since it was everywhere (but a higher concentration on the French frie) it happened to be neat the lining too.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> What colour was the mould? When you say it was spreading to the surrounding area do you mean the lining of the crop was mouldy?
> 
> He could have died of the toxins produced by the mould:
> 
> ...


I was wondering the same thing myself Cynthia. Interestingly I have read that cooking and freezing will not kill the aflatoxin that is produced by the mold and that it will survive both and remain on the food.

From the same source link below:

"This liver toxicity can produce a cumulative effect over time, and can eventually lead to diseases of the liver including hepatic fibrosis, cirrhosis, and fatty liver disease. Aflatoxins are also carcinogenic, causing a variety of different cancers. They can cause blood disorders where small arteries are blocked due to blood clots. These clots can even lead to necrosis or death of part of the bird’s toes."

http://www.wellvet.com/aflatoxins.html

They do recommend using milk thistle seeds and tincture for birds w/liver problems along of course w/seeing your vet.

fp


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