# Pigeon sick - loose droppings, throwing up - need advice urgently, please



## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Hello Everyone*

I'm going to the vet as soon as it opens (siesta now), so I have a few questions to ask before that. 
We most likely can't find a bird doctor around here, so your advice is beyond appreciated.

Our 4,5 year old indoor pigeon is sick. 
Her droppings are loose, like water or slime. 
This started about 3 days ago. 
She also throws up her food (undigested seeds in clear liquid)
She's not energetic, and looks puffed up with a hunched over back. 

She had made one proper dropping this morning - good sign? 

She made an egg 3 days ago, so I thought all these symptoms are egg-related. 
She made the second egg yesterday. 
But her condition hasn't improved, so we're really afraid she might be sick. 

Her diet has been the same, but we did go on a trip last week; 
She was free in the hotel room. It was around the time she was supposed
to make her eggs, and once we arrived back home she made one immediately. (is it possible for a pigeon to hold in an egg?) 

Other than that everything has been normal. 

We'll go to see a vet as soon as they open, but we're pretty sure it won't be someone who's specialized in birds. But it's the only option, so hopefully it can't go wrong.. 

ANY ADVICE? What medication to ask for (/or to avoid), what tests to make? Maybe some antibiotic? (Baytril?) 

Could this even be egg-related? She still has her back hunched over in the same way than when she's about to lay an egg. 

I'll be checking your responses, thank you!! 

Ippychick

Ps. We're located in Italy.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm glad you've opened a thread about your poorly bird, I'd only just noticed you'd posted for help on the other thread and I was worried it might be missed.

Obviously I haven't got all the answers as I'd had to ask for help for mine with similar symptoms.

As far as meds go I'd say the Baytril is the one that seems to be helping my pigeon so I'd definitely try and get your vet to give you that for a start.
Also Bella has found it's helped with a rescue she has.

I do in fact wonder now if any of my birds problems are egg related as she would have been due to lay around now and she was in fact quite poorly a while ago after laying her first eggs.
Were her eggs quite normal and healthy looking?

Also have you any formula you could hand feed her with while her digestion is impaired?

Hopefully you'll get some good input from the experts that have helped me with Molly.

For now keep your bird warm and hydrated which I'm sure you know and come back on with any feedback after you've seen the vet as due to the time differences some folks may not log on until later.

Good luck,

Janet


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Janet*



amyable said:


> I'm glad you've opened a thread about your poorly bird, I'd only just noticed you'd posted for help on the other thread and I was worried it might be missed.
> 
> Obviously I haven't got all the answers as I'd had to ask for help for mine with similar symptoms.
> 
> ...


Hi Janet

Thank you for the reply! We're in a panic here, and the vet is still not open. 

I'll ask for Baytril. I fear the vet won't be experienced with birds, so the visit might be a shot in the dark. 

The eggs look pretty normal to me. The first egg might have a touch of blood on it ~ something red at least, and very little. I did notice it when it first came out, but it was so little I didn't give it a second thought. 

Vivi has been laying eggs for many years now. We can't stop her. The last two rounds have looked a little more difficult than usual, in sense of her being more quiet and looking like she has pain. 

I just wonder why her back is still hunched over.. it's normal when she lays eggs, but it should have gone away now after laying the 2nd egg. 

She's standing on the edge of the bed now, so she's not even on her eggs. Poor thing, looks like she's suffering.. 

We'll keep her warm and hydrated for the time being! We don't have any proper formula - the best I can do is some porridge with small seeds mixed into it ?? 

Thanks for the reply, Janet! I'll give an update asap. Beyond concerned at the moment. She means everything to us! 

Ippychick

Ps. I found something called "Egg Yolk Peritonitis", but I haven't had the time to read properly about it. Are you familiar with it?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, I've just gone back over a couple of threads I've had in the past with egg laying issues.

What I went through then was a hen laying two eggs but still not returning to normal after. I also had the problem that my local vet isn't avian and although he looked at her he didn't come up with much for her.
What was suggested on here then was that it might be an oviduct infection and I was advised to put Bonnie on a course of Baytril and Metronidazole (Flagyl).

Bonnie is having problems again ATM but has been through quite a decent spell without any issues so I'm wondering Vivi has such an infection.

That's what I'd try to get from the vet if possible as these meds are always great to have on hand anyway.

On this occasion Bonnie was struggling to walk and looked in pain even after she'd laid, so very much like Vivi and she was also passing very smelly messy poops.

As far as hand feeding goes you can mix puppy biscuits with warm water to make a mash and hand feed those in emergency. Also defrosted warm peas or sweetcorn are good.

If you do get Baytril from the vet for her don't give calcium supplements at the same time, just in case she gets that from you normally.

Hope all goes well with the vets

Janet


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

They will want to do an xray if the vet feels something in there, then they will go from there..if there is an egg she may get a calcium injection. as far as the antibiotics goes it depends if the vet wants to run some tests to see if one is even needed or which one would be best. Canker medication is always good to throw in as well, as the stress could bring it out and it is so common.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Janet*



amyable said:


> Hi, I've just gone back over a couple of threads I've had in the past with egg laying issues.
> 
> What I went through then was a hen laying two eggs but still not returning to normal after. I also had the rpobelm that my local vet isn't avian and although he looked at her he didn't come up with much for her.
> What was suggested on here then was that it might be an oviduct infection and I was advised to put Bonnie on a course of Baytril and Metronidazole (Flagyl).....


Janet, 

Oviduct infection? Okay, that could absolutely be possible. 

We just called one of the vests in a nearby town; she sounded like she knew what she was talking about (you never know though). She didn't sound too alarmed. She asked if Vivi could be making a 3rd egg! We said they only make 2 (she's NEVER made more than 2 in over four years), but she said it can be possible. (is this true?) 

She didn't want to give antibiotics yet in case Vivi's immune system is too low at the moment. But she'll consult with yet another vet (who's supposed to be an avian vet), and we'll talk also with him soon. (will mention the oviduct infection to him, thanks for bringing it up) 

Okay, so I don't know if this is good or bad. It's not for sure they know what they're talking about, right? The clock is ticking.. And I don't want to get too relaxed about this, in case things get worse. 

Like with Molly, Vivi's droppings have a very strong foul smell right now ~ not normal, that's for sure. 

More news to come! *fingers crossed* 

Ippychick


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Spirit Wings*



spirit wings said:


> They will want to do an exray if the vet feels something in there, then they will go from there..if there is an egg she may get a calcium injection. as far as the antibiotics goes it depends if the vet wants to run some tests to see if one is even needed or which one would be best. Canker medication is always good to throw in as well, as the stress could bring it out and it is so common.


Thanks for the post, Spirit Wings. We're still waiting to go to the vet - I don't know why they're doing phone consultation before letting us to drive there. Might be due to a bird matter, as most of the vets aren't specialized in it.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I can't say if they ever lay three eggs, not had one but personally. Maybe others that have large lofts/flocks can comment on that!

It's good really the vets don't throw anti-biotics at things without some thoughts first, it was just suggested I put my birds on them as I didn't get a diagnosis from the vets and so we had to 'shoot blind' as they say in the hope things improved, which thankfully they did.

Keeping fingers crossed for you.

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pigeons don't lay more than 2 eggs at a time.

The thing is, with birds, once they are acting sick...they are really sick and in my opinion, there isn't much time to just think about it. It's not good that she's been ill for 3 days.

As she has laid the second egg, it could be that the egg pressed on her sciatic nerve causing pain. A pain medication, such as metacam would be of benefit to her.
Do you give her calcium with vitamin d3? Pigeons need the vitamin d3 to process the calcium. The only way they can get vitamin d3 is from direct contact with the sun on their feathers [ not filtered by glass] or a supplement. Often, an egg laying crisis can trigger another condition, such as canker for example, that the pigeon may have been managing.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Charis*



Charis said:


> Pigeons don't lay more than 2 eggs at a time.
> 
> The thing is, with birds, once they are acting sick...they are really sick and in my opinion, there isn't much time to just think about it. It's not good that she's been ill for 3 days.
> 
> As she has laid the second egg, it could be that the egg pressed on her sciatic nerve causing pain. A pain medication, such as metacam would be of benefit to her..


That's what I was thinking too, that when you can see a pigeon is sick, she's REALLY SICK and it might already be too late to help her ~ so immediate action is required! That's why we've been in panic here. 

The second vet told us to give Vivi some oil and gently rub her tummy to feel if there's an egg. This is frustrating, as we said we'd bring her to the clinic so he can do it. He just told us to wait until tomorrow, and if there's no improvement we should take her to the vet then. 

We just fed her here and so far she's kept everything in. Other than that she's been sleeping the whole day. 

We do give her some multivitamin drops, which should contain vitamin D3. I will double-check it though. 

I'll mention the sciatic nerve/ pain medication to the vet tomorrow! 

Thanks for the post, Charis.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s8RCZs5oZc&feature=related

I like SoluviteD by VetaFarm. If you do buy this one, buy the 450 gm. It's a better value for the money.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

amyable said:


> What was suggested on here then was that it might be an oviduct infection and I was advised to put Bonnie on a course of Baytril and Metronidazole (Flagyl).
> 
> 
> Janet


That's what I would have thought to be the best treatment in this case too?. The Flagyl (metronidazole) will cure canker, but it also has a great healing effect on oviduct type infections according to Dobato. And the Baytril would be a must IMO. 

I would find great difficulty in trusting a vet that said pigeons lay 3 eggs and that they won't prescribe antibiotics for an immune-system compromised bird. Antibiotics are often the only thing that will save sick pigeons, especially ones with a compromised immune system.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Update*

*Update on Vivi: *

We visited the vet yesterday. He's supposed to be an avian veterinarian.

He believes Vivi's symptoms are caused by her getting a draft/cold* while she had the egg(s) inside her. According to him, that will make the bird contract and withhold the eggs, which makes the passing of the eggs very painful. So in his opinion, Vivi is simply exhausted and obviously her immune system is down and she has lost a lot of weight. 

*When we arrived from the trip last weekend, our big stone house was extremely cold. It took about 2 days to get it warm again, even we were freezing here. She also might have got cold in the car on the way back home (we've been having major snow storms, so it's been very cold all the time).

There were no x-ray or poo samples taken. He just examined Vivi physically (touched her and looked into her throat), and asked questions. 

We asked for Baytril, but instead he gave us powdered "Amoxicillina" (antibiotic). He also advised us to buy specific turkey (!) feed (/formula) to feed her with. We also need to give her added vitamins and oil daily. 

The "Amoxicillina" is in powder form, so we have to mix it in water, and then use it to make the formula with, as well as make her drink it with a pipette. Obviously we can't be sure about the exact amount she's getting this way. (a pill would have been more accurate) 

We weighed Vivi today; her weight is really low at 245g, so she has lost 45 grams. This is not good. 

How often should we feed her? She doesn't drink/eat by herself, and I'm not 100% sure about the feeding schedule. Would once every 2 hours (except at night) be too much? And how much to make her eat per feeding session? 

All Vivi does is sleep under the duvet. She has pecked my fingers twice, which I take as a positive sign. She's also groomed herself a little bit, and her poos are still wet, but have green in it. 

How does all this sound to you? 

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Ippychick

Ps. We also asked about The Flagyl (metronidazole), but it's been banned here in Italy.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Update Ii*

*GOOD NEWS: 
*
Vivi came out from under the duvet, and went to the kitchen; 

She's EATING SEEDS all by herself! And LOTS of them!! 

This is a good sign, right?? At least a step to the right direction!

Still a few days ago she puked most of the seeds she ate (undigested), so hopefully these will stay in. She doesn't puke the formula, so even if she starts to eat by herself now we'll continue to hand-feed her. 

Also.. I noticed today, that two of her poos contained a few (1-3 per poo) undigested seeds. What does this mean? Or is it just like having a diarrhea? As far as I know she hasn't eaten seeds for a few days though, so I don't know how they can come out now. But at least she hasn't been puking for about 2 days now (has been eating porridge/formula).


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm glad she's better and not vomiting, but I don't trust what the vet told you. Individual treatment is always a better way than via the water.

She really does need to have her droppings evaluated and I would encourage you to find another vet. Don't forget the calcium and vitamin d3.
I'm happy to send you what you need to have some supplies on hand for any emergencies that might arise.

Coccidia can be a symptom of the undigested seeds in the droppings.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Charis*



Charis said:


> I'm glad she's better and not vomiting, but I don't trust what the vet told you. Individual treatment is always a better way than via the water.
> 
> She really does need to have her droppings evaluated and I would encourage you to find another vet. Don't forget the calcium and vitamin d3.
> I'm happy to send you what you need to have some supplies on hand for any emergencies that might arise.
> ...


Charis

Oh, I'm getting lightheaded ~ starting to feel helpless! 

Coccidia ~ let's say if Vivi had it, how could she have got it? She's an indoor bird. Yes, the symptoms fit, but then again almost everything I read has her current symptoms. (it's like reading a medical book; you suddenly think you have everything in the book!) 

Scary. 

I live in Italy, moved here last summer, and I don't speak Italian ~ this makes looking for an experienced avian vet very difficult. I'll keep on trying though, but my sources are limited. 

I know an excellent pigeon clinic in Germany, and I could possible sent them a dropping sample by mail. I know they do that. The only problem is, it will take some days to get there. The results they could give on the phone or e-mail. 

She should be getting enough Calcium and D3 at the moment; the multivitamin drops have it, but also the turkey feed. 

Thank you for offering to send us something for a possible emergency ~ I'll pay you for the trouble! Should I send you my address in a private message? I would really appreciate it, feeling so uncertain at the moment... 

Thank you, Charis!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Like canker, pigeons have the parasite that causes coccidia already in their body. Most often they can deal with it just fine but the numbers can get out of control, just as they can with canker. I think stress can be a factor when that happens.
You can email me your address and I'll get some things in the mail. I'd like to do that by tomorrow because Monday is a holiday here.

[email protected]


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, I was just wondering how Vivi was doing?

It was interesting to hear that the vet said cold could have been a contributing factor in Vivi's condition.
As you may remember I had one of my pigeons showing similar symptoms and I was concerned as she's never had to experience such cold as we've had recently. She would have been about to lay eggs so it may have caused her problems.

I hope she's picking up now. Do keep us posted.

Janet


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