# Help, I have a sick pigeon!!!!!!!!!!!



## angill (May 10, 2006)

Hi, my name is Angill. I have had a pigeon for 6 years. He is my baby!!! Now he is sick and I cant figure out what is wrong. His stools are totally liquid. Thereis a little substance but not much. He completely saturates his cage daily. He is also drink a tremendous amount of water. He has drank a liter of pedialyte in 4 days,and almost a gallon of water in a week. He is getting weak, although he will barely show it. I notice cause he is not flying a lot. He will walk to follow me instead of fly. He will fly up on the counter if he has to, but not as high as my fridge. The vet is treating him with baytril, but it has been a week since his shot. I am following up with a daily dose also and I havent seen any improvement. The vet said something about kidney failure? He said he was getting old?? i find that hard to believe cause I read that pigeons can live in captivity for up to 16 years. Please give me some good advice. ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A pigeon can last 30 years if everything goes right. One can, however, seem to die of old age fairly young in cases of disease or bad nutrition.

Need to ask specifically if your vet has done a fecal float looking for coccidia. This could be plenty of things but there are a few suspects that happen the most. Whereabouts do you live?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, you might want to get him under a heat lamp or something like that. He's probably sitting around fluffed up, right? It helps in a case like this to provide supplemental heat.

Pidgey


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*sick pigeon*

Hey, Thanx so much for your reply. I live in Oklahoma. As far as poor nutriton goes I have fed him the same feed for 6years. It is a feed for pigeons. If it was nutrition wouldnt i have seen signs before now??? As you can tell Im a novice. I welcome any advice I can get!!!!!!!!!!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Angill,

Sorry to hear that your pet is not doing well. Posting your whereabouts would be helpful in terms of referrals. I'm wondering if your vet is specifically an avian
vet? Also, did the vet state what bacterial infection that he was treating w/the Baytril? Any other information regarding what tests the vet performed and gave you the results on would be helpful as well. I'm interested in if your pet was examined for coccidosis as Pidgey inquired, worms and Trichomoniasis (canker). Is this pigeon exclusively an indoor pet that lives in the house w/you? Any other information you could provide will help members with suggestions as to how to proceed.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where in OK--I'm in Tulsa.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Angill, 


What color are the liquid stools?

What kind of smell do they have?


Aside from Seeds, has he been free to forrage wild greens and shoots, or been given fresh greens of various kinds?...does he get direct outdoor Sunshine?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills sick pigeon*

In response to all the wondeful feedback Ive received here are a few answers to all your questions. I live in Enid, Oklahoma. My pigeon does not go out side much. Ive only had him outside once in the last 6 months. Is stools are completely a clear liquid with a brownish/green loose substance. The vet did a stool culture for me and did not find any bacteria. The only reason he is treating with baytril is because it worked the last time he got sick 5 yrs ago. My vet does not no much about birds. Pretty Boys diet has been a seed I by from Edmond of mixed seeds. I give him grit with it also. He does not get a lot of direct sunlight, but his cage sits close to a sy light in my home and has been in the same place for the last 3 years. I never give him anything else but his feed, no greens or anything. Im not sure what coccidosis is?? Can yall educate me on that? Is that something he would all the sudden get? If he were having problems from nutrition wouldnt symptoms have shown up sooner? Have yall ever heard of kidney or liver failure? His stools just smell--ohh its hard to explain. It doesnt just totally stick, but its a different smell. If I dont keep his cage dry, mold will grow in it within 2-3 days. Thanks again and HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills sick pigeon!!!*

One more thing! How do I know for sure he is a boy??? If he/she was trying to lay eggs would it have happened before now??????


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Angill,

I am so sorry that Pretty Boy is ill, that must be so worrying for you.

Extremely watery droppings are often caused by diabetes. Affected birds can drink and pass up to half a pint of water a day. They drink a lot to try to eliminate the glucose from their blood.

The droppings can be tested for sugar using the testing sticks that are ued for humans. Unfortunately treatment with insulin is not very effective on birds.

Because of the smell and the mould as well as his age I would start off by testing the urine for sugar as that is probably the simplest and quickest test, you might be able to get a testing stick and instructions from a pharmacy.

Other causes of extremely watery dropiings are kidney disease, as suggested by your vet, hormone upsets, plant poisons, acute salmonella infection and paramyxovirus (which can probablt be ruled out if your pigeon has not been outside for 6 weeks or if it shows no other typical PMV symptoms).


Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

angill said:


> In response to all the wondeful feedback Ive received here are a few answers to all your questions. I live in Enid, Oklahoma. My pigeon does not go out side much. Ive only had him outside once in the last 6 months.
> 
> *Indoors birds do need vitamin D3 as a supplement and a general all around vitamin, here is a link to our resource section and some avian vet links:
> 
> ...


*In general, if the bird's cage will grow mold within 2-3 days, then it's probably not the best location for the pigeon. They need dry, draft free locations to maintain good health. You could have more than one issue concurrently, the bird may also have a mold/fungus issue. It would be good to see an avian vet, perhaps Pidgey can help you out on this.

fp*


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

angill said:


> One more thing! How do I know for sure he is a boy??? If he/she was trying to lay eggs would it have happened before now??????


Some folks place a mirror in front of the pij, and if the pij starts getting roudy, a boy. I'd think that if a hen, she might have laid eggs by now, though.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Does pedyalite contain glucose? As there is the possibility of this being diabetes then I think it would best to replace that with plain water for the time being but it will need added electrolytes.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It sounds like a classic case of coccidiosos, which may have been brought out as a secondary infection due to some other issue going on.

While you are deciding who to take the bird to:

Please get the bird on a heating pad if you haven't done so, and what the bird needs most right now is some heavy doses of probiotics and make sure to *feed *the bird if she is not eating on her own. Put some Apple Cider Vinegar in the water also. A garlic capsule every day will help bring the immune system up.

The pedialyte may be complicating the situation as well as the Baytril. Stop the pedyakite.

I would add a good pigeon multi-vitmain mineral with D3 that also contains amino acids. 

A drop or two of Sovereign Silver would be beneficial also.

And if the environment is an issue the cage needs to be relocated.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In all the excitement, I'm not sure that it's been asked or answered as to whether or not this bird is still eating. Also, are you feeding him "Edmond's Best", "Edmond's Racer" or "Edmond's Breeder"?

It so happens that we've got a member there in Enid who also may be able to help (re lee). I'm going to send him an email and hope that he gets back with you--he should at least know which vet there might be the best (for pigeons).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, to list the action items so far, we're looking for:

1) Fecal float to check for coccidial oocysts (Coccidiosis)

2) Sugar content of urine (try to put the paper in the watery liquid stuff)

3) Possibility of zinc poisoning (like if he ate a staple; see link below)

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww14eiii.htm

4) Nearest Avian Vet (that's listed with the Association of Avian Veterinarians, anyway):

Pilar Fish
208 W. Oklahoma Ave.
Guthrie, OK 73044
Phone: 405-282-8842 

5) Vitamin supplement that contains D3 (usually comes in a small bottle that dispenses drops)

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hello Angill - so sorry to read that your pigeon is sick. My first thought is also of coccidiosis but if your vet did a float the coccidia should have been evident. You may want to contact the vet and ask did they specifically check for coccidiosis.

Personally, if this were my bird, I would take him out of that cage RIGHT NOW. If mold has been growing there are probably still spores lurking around and until the cage is thoroughly disinfected and probably allowed to stay in the sun for several days, you're going to continue to have a problem.

When a bird is producing such watery droppings you need to continually change its bedding - I'm talking about several times a day.

Keep us posted, please.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doesn't sound like he did a float per se--she specifically said a culture looking for bacteria. Kinda' odd, really.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Doesn't sound like he did a float per se--she specifically said a culture looking for bacteria. Kinda' odd, really.
> 
> Pidgey



I think she said that the vet isn't that knowledgable w/birds, he also may not have realized that there was a mold issue going on where the bird's cage is
situated. She did say that he put her pigeon on the Baytril because of an infection that was resolved with the medication many years ago, in the hopes that they would get lucky with the same treatment again. None the less, the reluctance to fly, the watery/smelly poops seem to suggest the possibility of 
coccidiosis and the also possible problem of mold exposure.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I think she said that the vet isn't that knowledgable w/birds, he also may not have realized that there was a mold issue going on where the bird's cage is situated. She did say that he put her pigeon on the Baytril because of an infection that was resolved with the medication many years ago, in the hopes that they would get lucky with the same treatment again. None the less, the reluctance to fly, the watery/smelly poops seem to suggest the possibility of
> coccidiosis and the also possible problem of mold exposure.
> 
> fp


The odd thing to me was that Angill said that "the vet did a stool culture for me and did not find any bacteria." I guess I took those words at face value and poop's usually full of bacteria regardless of health. I probably should intuitively read in a "harmful" in front of the "bacteria" but I don't actually know of a single test that simple (doesn't mean there isn't one).

I replied in an email to Angill that it's also possible that the Baytril is being flushed out by all the water to the point of not doing much good so I'd suggested that she do the urine test for diabetes first and depending on how that turned out that we could do other things like limiting the water throughput. Of course, if it were zinc poisoning or Coccidiosis, the treatment would vary greatly.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

What do you consider the source of the possible zinc poisoning to be, Pidgey?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's usually that they swallowed a metal staple or a flake of paint with a bunch of zinc in it. There's a pretty good article on it at that weblink I posted earlier in the thread. I don't have any personal experience with that particular problem, though.

Pidgey


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills sick pigeon!!!!*

Pidgey, thanx again for all you help. Pretty Boy is eating fine. I feed him Edmonds Best. I have an appointment in Edmond today with Stoneridge animal hopsital. I will post after the appointment. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

angill said:


> Pidgey, thanx again for all you help. Pretty Boy is eating fine. I feed him Edmonds Best. I have an appointment in Edmond today with Stoneridge animal hopsital. I will post after the appointment. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Hi angill,

I think mold should be part of the discussion w/the vet, as there is a known
issue there, I know it's not on the list that Pigdey put together, but it really, in terms of known issues is probably in front of the zinc poisoning. Please explain to them what you've told us here about the cage location and the growth of mold. And, as Maggie suggested, a new location and think about a new cage.

Petco carries relatively large cages that are collapsable w/removable trays at
the bottom. Good luck at the vets, and please let us know how it turns out.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I think mold should be part of the discussion w/the vet, as there is a known
> issue there, I know it's not on the list that Pigdey put together, but it really, in terms of known issues is probably in front of the zinc poisoning. Please explain to them what you've told us here about the cage location and the growth of mold. And, as Maggie suggested, a new location and think about a new cage.
> fp


Well, I did consider adding it and I ain't the last word on things. But I'll tell you the logic of why I ultimately didn't though: Most of the time when you're running a diagnostic algorithm, there is a decision tree with several branches. You could test for everything at one time and hope for one positive and a bunch of negatives but then you get to pay for all the various labs (witness Brad's dilemma with Henny). Obviously you try to limit the first shots fired based on the most likely things and then try other things if those tests fail. 

I did a quick read of fungal infections and didn't see that the PD/PU complex (Polydipsia/Polyuria) was associated with fungal infections (of the GI anyway) so I thought to let that one slide a bit. Actually, if there was a GI fungal infection, it would show up in a fecal smear.

I've had a few pigeons in with Coccidiosis that presented the massive water throughput and I finally took to erecting a couple of sawhorses with the cage over papers so that the paper stood a better chance of drying (seeing as how it was suspended) AND with a heat lamp on it to keep the fungal growth down anyway. Those pigeons have always responded to the Corid (Amprolium) within the week and I've never had to use Nystatin on them for yeast problems. Another thought is that I would have expected crop stasis/slowdown if the yeast was significant enough to cause those kinds of symptoms and, again, that's based on a GI presentation. 

On a different note, I read that the PD/PU complex can be associated with _Hyper_vitaminosis D3 so I wouldn't primarily suspect low D3 in this case.

If anyone knows of or can find references to the contrary on any of that, please post it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Consulting with a vet offers the opportunity to discuss concerns, certainly the mold would be a concern if already a given. I don't think it was being discussed as the primary, but certainly a concern. And having D-3 supplements
may again not be a primary concern, but for an indoor bird, it does seem that
this should be incorporated into the dietary needs of the bird, not to be dismissed because it isn't central to the current crisis. Many times it's the cumulative effect of issues that haven't been addressed individually that can place a bird in crisis. JMO.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And I understand those concerns probably better than you might realize. If it's Coccidiosis, for instance, you'd have to question what brought on an acute attack--nutritional deficiency; an unrecognized, undocumented infection; some new stress; etc. It would be necessary to hopefully find that ultimate cause or causes and fix it or them. Usually, a fungal infection is also a secondary effect due to becoming immunocompromised. An exception to that would, for example, be a massive inhalation of Aspergillus spores that could cause pulmonary Aspergillosis.

What I have discovered when talking to a vet, though, is that it's sometimes not the world's best idea to get too deep into all the possibilities at the onset of the diagnostic algorithm. It can cause the inaction that is the hallmark of "rule by committee". I would venture to say that there have probably been more than a few pigeons (whose rescuers/rehabbers have written in here asking for advice) who have died because the rehabber should have simply shotgunned the bird with all the regular treatments at one time (Antibiotic, wormer, anti-coccidial, anti-protozoal, anti-ectoparasite) from the git-go instead of over-discussing the issues and not making an early decision. Can that be quantified and especially against the likelihood that some have been saved due to inaction? Sadly, no. All we can do sometimes is what feels best in a given circumstance.

Hopefully, we'll get some good news this evening.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey, I would still think that a situation where a cage grows mold within 2-3 days is part of the whole picture. It would be so easy for the pigeon to have pecked at mold, even if not visible to the eye. Something that could show in a fecal, so brought up as part of the issues to discuss with a vet, that's all. Just didn't think it should be excluded. I have also read that excessive thirst can accompany as a symptom. 

At any rate, I'm hoping that the new vet will provide angill with the information/medications that she needs to bring her pet back to good health.

fp


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I recieved the email Now i do not know how to contact this person. Can you send me a email with your home phone number I can try to look at your bird and we might be able to help it. there could be several possibles. ecoli. cocsidi. come to mind reading the posts over. i really know of no vets that deal much with pigeons here in Enid. Most all the people over the years here have delt with there birds and sent stool samples to OSU for study. But the people here that have raised pigeons goes back many years so most are farely educated on there birds. I will have to see the bird to offer an idea.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

I don't know what is wrong with your Pretty Boy, but after having inj. & follow up with Baytril for a week, & it hasn't improved, wouldn't that rule out Coccidiosos & more?? Happy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Happy, I've never heard of Baytril being used to treat coccidiosis, could you
provide a link? Thanks,

fp


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi FP,
I don't know how to post a link on Pigeon-Talk yet, but just Google Coccidiosis Pigeons Baytril & take your pick. like Foys etc. etc....
I don't think Baytril should be used for somthing as simple to keep in line as Cocci, but so many are, but (not I). I routinely (every 2-3 months) use Amprol/Corid or Sulmet for 5-7 days for birds not breeding/raising young. Hap


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

FP, I stand corrected. You are correct that Baytril is not used for Coccidiosis. I thought I read this on many links, but was really the headings that told me this. So many Racers have told me that it is for Paratyphoid, Cocci, & so many other things that gave me that opinion. I have to take my own advice & not rely on my readings on the internet & hearsay from fellows without much research..... Sorry...... Hap


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills sick pigeon!!!!!!!*

Hello every body. So sorry I didnt get to post last night. It was late when I got home for Pretty Boys dr. The vet did like 4 different stool tests. They were all negative for everything. No coccidiosis. However there was an awful lot of yeast in his stool. The Dr was puzzled by that. He gave me fluconazole and probiotics( Ben-Bac?) I think to give to him. I also bought a vitamin to give to him. On the issue with the mold. His cage does not usually grow mold. It has been growing the mold only since he has been sick and he has had so much diarrhea. I simply mentioned it because that tells everyone exactly how much diarrhea he has. Its from all the moisture in his stools.When he is not sick his cage never grew mold, and I would change his cage about every 1-2 weeks. The vet also drew blood and is running a CBC. I should have the results by Friday. He was soo sweet (pretty Boy) He rode with me to Edmond ( about an hour and 1/2 from Enid) perched an my shoulder. He never moved. He just took in the scenery. Lol!!!! I went to the pet store in Edmond after Pretty Boy was finished at the Dr. and could not resist the purchase of an additional animal to my family. Any one wanna guess what it is???? A pot belly pig. She is so sweet!!!!!!!!!! Her name is Lola. LoL!!!! Anyway I appreciate all the wonderful feed back and if anyone has any idea about the yeast it would be helpful, as even the Dr was puzzeled about it. Thanks again every one and hava a good day. I will post again later. Pretty Boy is still cooing and very alert. The vet was happy to see that!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it would be interesting if the fungi were the actual cause of the polyuria. For one thing, fungi are the "flora" side of the "flora and fauna" of the intestines. They're ubiquitous (always there) and in vast enough numbers to grow pretty quickly if it suits them. I haven't read anything that gets very specific on why they start bursting out when they do although the reasons are thought to be immunosuppression or some intestinal balance issue. Whatever that is, that's the true cause.

I have seen birds that demonstrated plenty of yeasts in the fecals (even in a fecal float) that seemed otherwise healthy and in the cases where they seemed "off" have fed them Kaytee for awhile and kept them under a heat lamp. Perhaps it was the probiotics in the Kaytee that helped them recover. Heretofore, I haven't considered molds growing on poop to be that significant because when I've got them down in the basement, only the driest poops don't grow mold like gangbusters. I always felt it was the moisture/humidity that allowed them to grow.

Of course, if the operative word was NOT "Polyuria" but rather "Diarrhea" then it's a different ballgame. That'd be the classic kind of mistake that I'd make. It's an interesting problem with birds since it all comes out the same place. I suppose a picture (of one of these poops) is out of the question?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Happy said:


> Hi FP,
> I don't know how to post a link on Pigeon-Talk yet, ....



Hi Happy,

Thanks for your clarification on the use of Baytril and coccidiosis, it does go to show that double checking can be very important due to misconceptions about 
medications that gain a reputation as a 'Big Gun Cureall". Regarding links, if you
right click on the url in the menu above, a small drop down menu will appear. Select copy, then paste it into your text, again using the right click drop down menu. Or you can use the Edit option in the main browser menu and select paste. It the curser is actively flashing in your text window, the address will
appear in your reply post. I usually double space on links to set them off. Hope this helps.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> However there was an awful lot of yeast in his stool. The Dr was puzzled by that.


There is a direct relationship between diabetes and yeast infections. Yeast feeds on sugars such as glucose so it multiplies when blood sugar is high.

So that is a possible cause.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I wonder if they checked the blood glucose in all of that? Surely that would show up on a CBC? JGregg had a couple of diabetic birds (that she'd spent a lot of money treating if I remember rightly)--I'll bet she'd be a real good one to ask.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi angill,

Congratulations on your new addition, Lola. For the longest time, I kept an article that I got quite a kick out of about a pet pig who dove into a lake one Mid West summer and swam out to rescue a drowning boy. The pig got hold of the boy, and dragged him back to shore where he was given first aid.

Regarding the yeast that was found in the stools, generally speaking, fungi are a division of plantlike organisms that include molds and yeasts. Some are present during good health in the digestive system, but can cause a problem
when they are present in higher than normal numbers. I have a probiotic from Vetafarm which in fact has Aspergillus oryzoe and Candida pintolepesii present in the product. So, in proper ratio, one might not worry about it's presence. Sometimes the overuse (& sometimes simply the use) of antibiotics can cause
Candiasis to come to the forefront, although I don't think this is the situation w/Pretty Boy and the Baytril. 

You may find the resource section to be of general help, it is pretty loaded
w/general care information:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Unless the new vet turns up a major disfunction for Pretty Boy, such as diabetes or kidney failure, I think we are left w/more common explanations for
your current situation. Relee, Robert, suggested ecoli or coccidiosis. With no evidence of coccidiosis in the second vet's tests, the ecoli could have been treated w/the course of Baytril that Pretty Boy has been on. Which leaves fungus/yeast as the remaining issue. It may be hard to pinpoint whether the bird's internal system went out of balance, or if the problem w/the mold in the cage is the cause. Regardless, there are precautionary steps that one can take to try and avoid this as a health concern in the future.

Use of cleaning solutions (Nolvasan, OxineAH, Bleach) to clean food and water bowls daily & the addition of raw apple cider vinegar to the water, help to inhibit the growth internally & externally of unwanted yeast/fungus. Keeping seeds stored in a moisture free environment is also a good idea. This is the kind of informatin that you will find in the link above. Hope this is of general help, and please keep us posted on the results of the remaining tests.

fp

As an aside, Fluconazole is eliminated primarily by the kidneys, a double loading dose is recommended in the first 24 hours of therapy, and if Renal impairment is involved, the dosage requires modification.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

When he is not sick his cage never grew mold, and I would change his cage about every 1-2 weeks. 

*If mold was growing, shouldn't the cage have been changed MORE OFTEN? Every 1 - 2 WEEKS?  Seems like a LONG time to me.*

The vet also drew blood and is running a CBC. I should have the results by Friday. 

*If CBC results could show Diabetes, then Angill won't know until FRIDAY*



Just my opinion...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

mr squeaks,

She only changed it every 1 -2 weeks before this problem came up. It also sounds like the bird is out of the cage quite a bit.

I'm not very familiar with diabetes in any kind of patient but I found a reference (for human children) that I thought was pretty interesting:

http://www.drgreene.com/21_689.html

It sounds like the yeast infections that the children are getting are more of a diaper-rash kind of thing and due to the presence of the sugar in the urine in a soaked diaper. But he also says that you're getting pretty close to a critical phase at that point. That's really why I'd rather hear from someone who's fought that one firsthand. Sounds like even the vet's a bit puzzled.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Diaper rashes in babies, seniors and others are all coined to be yeast based infections, with or without a diabetic condition. Just a spot that is a favorable environment for the yeast in that it is warm, dark and moist....this is how it was exlained to me by many doctors and nurses.

I think the concern seems to be w/those that don't readily resolve (although still other factors could be the cause), or occur after 'potty training' and a "family history" is present.

_"Healthy kids in diapers commonly get yeast diaper rashes. But if these infections are very frequent, or not easy to clear up with appropriate treatment, I get concerned. If a child is out of diapers, I prefer checking a fasting blood sugar after only one yeast infection. especially if there is a family history of diabetes."_

FP


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The diabetes is just a suggestion, but this is from an article on vaginal yeast infections:


_The correlation between diabetes and yeast infections is so strong doctors often test women who suffer recurring bouts of infections for diabetes._

The complete article is here:

http://www.monistat.ca/english/advice_diabetes.html

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sometimes it sure is hard to say all that I'd like to say without writing an entire dissertation. Let me try it this way: I wish I could find something that described the process that we may be looking at, focusing on the genesis of the fungal overload. Is the actual count normal but it's growing on the cage floor at high speed due to an excess sugar? Is the actual count high because of a fungal overgrowth in the bowel and it's getting a head start in there? Is there the possibility of a fungal overgrowth in the kidneys or cloaca?

I went back into the book under "diarrhea" and found that Candidiasis is one of the causes shown in the algorithm (Rupley) but it didn't go into any decent detail under the article on Candidiasis or in the article on diarrhea (the diagnostic algorithm is a chart). Actually, the one and only place that the link to Candidiasis appeared was in the chart. I just checked the Big Book and it's not real helpful either, it seems. It doesn't even mention the lower GI.

Now this is just me and one of my personal failings, but it irritates the crud out of me that there would be a (assuming here) common (probably common enough, anyway) disease etiology that isn't detailed in the books that I've looked in so far.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The statistic for women with diabetes is almost 9% of the adult population in America and vaginal yeast infections are looked as a a possible corrollary symptom. Seventy-five percent of adult females will experience a vaginal yeast infection by the time they are 25yrs. old. This is where the 'rule out' process begins to make sure that there isn't something really off kilter going on if a woman has recurring yeast infections. Antibiotic usage directly prior to the yeast infection, tight fitting jeans, back to front wiping, birth control pills, wet bathing suits, etc.are some of the listed causes. It appears also, that there are misdiagnosed problems that can also mimic a yeast infection such as an allergic reaction to the sperm of one's partner. 

Course for Pretty Boy, I think we could rule out tight fitting jeans, he doesn't have a 'partna' per se, doesn't lounge in wet bathing suits..... and I don't think the Baytril is the culprit. Hopefully the CBC will provide information if diabetes is the problem, if not, the rule out process continues. Pigeons do have a tendency to peck at things around them in the floor of lofts/cages, so, it is possible that mold spores were actually ingested. It could be stress related from a primary infection. But in any event, fungus/yeast issues remain one of the recurring themes in the sick and injured section. No doubt we'll all keep learning more on the topic.

fp


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills sick pigeon*

Hey everybody, I just wanted to give you the update on Pretty Boy. The vet I saw on Edmond failed to call me and give me the results of his blood work. He promised to call late afternoon. I called his office at 6:30 pm and guess what -----yep he had already left for the day. I guess my $245.00 wasnt enough for even a courtesy call.(supposedly the blood work came back after he had left---whatever) So as yall can probably tell Im pretty ticked. He is supposed to call me tomorrow-if not I will be around Edmond and will be sure to drop by and well I will be nice Anyways on a brighter note Pretty Boys water consumption seems to be down---Yes!!! And he flew up on top of my fridge today, which he hasnt done in a while. However, his stools dont look any better. I have been giving him the diflucan(0.1 cc) twice a day, the probiotics twice a day, and I bought some vitamins. They are called vivi 13+ made by Lafeber's. Hope they are a good vitamin. Well im gonna close for now and once again I THANK all of you so very much for your help and your diagnosis's. I will post again as soon as I know something.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's a major drag about the 'no call' angell, but on the bright side, he did help in diagnosing the yeast problem and Pretty Boy is at least more energetic and seems to be returning to normal with his water consumption. Lafeber's is a good brand, if there's something that you want for Pretty Boy, check out the Resource Section for the Pigeon Suppy Houses 'sticky', there are alot of products available through the houses as well. 

BTW, how is the odor of the poops doing? When all of this is back to a more normal routine, adding a tablespoon of raw apple cider vinegar to a gallon of water is helpful in maintaining good flora and keeping nasties like elevated numbers of yeast and bad bacteria down. 

fp


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills pigeon*

Hey fp thanx for all your concern and help. The poop smell is still pretty dominant and the texture is not improving at all. The thing that puzzles me the most is Pretty Boy seems so alert. He will still coo when I talk to him and "dance" for me when I talk to him. I just wander if I should leave him in his cage for a day or two so he can build up strength. I talked to my vet here in Enid about the yeast in his stool and he wasnt surprised about the high amount of yeast. He said that since he had been on antibiotics for so long that is what has caused it. I am just not impressed with this exotic "specialist" Pretty Boy saw in Edmond. I dont think he ever even thought of that being the reason for the yeast. Who knows. It just really upsets me that that Dr knew how concerned I was about Pretty Boy and he didnt even call today. I mean HELLOOOOOOOOOO I drove an hour and a half and spent a good chunk of money to get him treated and he just doesnt seem to care!!!!!! If you are a vet you should care or get another job!!! Anyways I finished venting for now and will post again as soon as I hear something-------


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I could be wrong on this, but thought there wasn't as high a concern for yeast proliferation as with other antibiotics when using Baytril. I could be very wrong on this. Although the visible mold is definitely not good. And, if the vet in Enid knew there was a possibility of a yeast infection, why didn't he discuss it w/you and give you a script. Sounds like you have to be on your toes with both of them, to advocate for Pretty Boy. I think that Robert offered to have a look at your bird, you may want to bring him to Robert to take a look. He's very knowledgable about pigeons specifically. Maybe bring a 'sample' newspaper of the poops so he can see what you're talking about??

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think you heard that from me (if not elsewhere as well) and I'm probably wrong about it. In my doubt, I tried googling for that and came up with this one although it's dealing with humans:

http://www.ccfa.org/about/news/opportunisticinfections

I tried using the keyword "Ciprofloxacin" since I figured that it'd be unlikely to find anything worthwhile regarding birds and Baytril.

In this case though, I guess it would be nice if we knew which came first--did the bird start with the watery stools and the mold grew immediately or did you originally go to the vet because of watery stools for a few days, went to the first vet, started the Baytril and THEN the mold began? A history can be very important (and sometimes it is difficult to accurately separate the facts after some time has passed).

In any case, Angill, I wouldn't expect a medication to turn the symptoms around that fast so give it some time.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I also tried looking up the relationship between Baytril and the overgrowth of yeast as a side effect of it's usage. I was unable to find anything directly related to the topic although Baytril was deemed as 'well tolerated' by birds in
many places.

The way that I read it, angell hadn't been to the second doctor yet and the mold was growing in the cage. Seemed she said it was growing there as a result of the wet droppings in a 'clarification' post. 

What I did find interesting in looking up side effects of Baytril, was repeated
cautions that if their was a possility of renal failure tests needed to be run first before prescribing. Here's what was originally posted:

"The vet is treating him with baytril, but it has been a week since his shot. I am following up with a daily dose also and I havent seen any improvement. The vet said something about kidney failure? "

Also confusing is that Pretty Boy has been tested now for bacteria and coccidiosis overloads w/negative results for both. Perhaps a yeast infection from the start, but who knows?

Another link to Baytril from Merck's on side effects:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/191240.htm

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's a link that is specific to Ciprofloxacin, it has a pretty comprehensive report on the 'action' of the antibiotic and statistics on 'reactions' to the drug:

http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmaceutical/b2.prescribe.html


"Renal Impairment: Since ciprofloxacin is eliminated primarily by the kidney, ciprofloxacin should be used with caution and at a reduced dosage in patients with impaired renal function (see Dosage)."

" In orally treated patients enrolled in clinical trials, the most frequently reported events, possibly, probably drug-related were: nausea (1.3%) and diarrhea (1%)."

"Urogenital: albuminuria, hematuria. The following have been reported rarely: leukorrhea, dysuria, urinary retention, acute kidney failure, abnormal kidney function, nephritis, vaginitis." 

The last entry appears to have the frequency of less than 1% if I'm reading it correctly.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, what I have said before is that I haven't observed a pronounced problem with what I would have thought was a candida or other fungal problem with the birds that I've treated with Baytril. In retrospect, in times past I didn't have much of a clue as to what I should have been looking for. I have seen (not in the birds that I've treated particularly) some big, nasty overcooked split pea soup poops before that I knew something was definitely wrong and it wasn't Coccidiosis. I'd sure like for somebody (a bird) to get whatever that was again so I could test it for fungi. Now THAT was unmistakeably diarrhea.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hmmmm, any hamhocks mixed in  ?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I didn't taste any.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I didn't taste any.
> 
> Pidgey



 _You really need to work up a protocol_  

fp


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills pretty boy*

Well, hello guys and here is the news from the vet. All tests came back good except for the glucose. I understood that regularly it runs about 240 something normally in birds and Pretty Boys was 945. However the vet consulted some Dr over all avians (I forgot her name but she works out of Philadelphia) and she said that she has never seen a bird diagnosed with diabetes on record. Meaning she doesnt think thats whats wrong even though the glucose test was so high. He gave me 2 shots of doxycyclin sp?? to have my vet give to him--and a b-12 shot. I am going to have my vet here in Enid call the one in Edmond Monday so my vet can translate everything to me in human language. Im not sure the reason for the doxy. As far as how he is doing today and to clarify the posts from earlier today on the mold- here goes. When Pretty Boy got sick about a year after I had him I didnt know he was sick until it was almost to late to save him. I had noticed his water consumption was up and his poop was watery. He got so sick he could barely fly. Thats whin I finally noticed something was wrong. My vet gave him a round of Baytril and he was fine!!!!!!!!!! Now I am wiser-- About 3 weeks ago I first noticed his water consumption going up. He was still acting okay though. Then came the diarrehea. Then the vet, then the cephalexin, then the baytril,(stools kept getting worse), then the mold. His water consumption is down by half. He is down to about 8 oz a day(which is still a lot for him--his usual is about 8 oz every 3 days or so. He still is alert and cooing away though. Oh and the vet also said his white blood count was low??? But he wasnt worried about that much---??? Im so congfused!!!! I will post later-- Good Night all.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi angill, 

I know for sure of one pigeon w/diabetes in the San Francisco area, I'm not saying that is what Pretty Boy has, but it does exist. I'm not getting why there's an improvement if bacteria count was fine to begin with, but maybe someone else could explain that. I'll definitely send a link to this thread to 
JGregg who is the owner of that said pigeon in the SF area.

Also, we didn't realize that Pretty Boy was on Cephaflexin just before the Baytril. Do you know why the vet put pijey on Doxycycline?

I hope you have pulled grit, and any calcium supplements--both Baytril and the Doxycycline need to have grit pulled because it will interfere w/the absorption of the drug.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, according to the veterinary manuals, Diabetes Mellitus does occur in birds. fp, do you think JGregg would help out here? She has experience with diabetic birds.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you're already on that, good. Sounds like the vets are just taking a antibiotic potshots at everything, probably because they just didn't know what else to do.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

What I'm seeing from just an initial search is reference to low white blood cell
count being related to a viral infection. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.oldworldaviaries.com/text/miscellaneous/blood_count.html

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...l+count+pigeons&d=c13tG0aqMkd0&icp=1&.intl=us

Doesn't mean it couldn't be something else, but this is one possiblity.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do a search in the Big Book using just "diabetes"--there are 67 entries. Apparently, the condition can be precipitated by a few different things but I haven't begun to read them yet. I just quickly shopped around for the diagnostic entry.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Tomorrow

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> said that she has never seen a bird diagnosed with diabetes on record. Meaning she doesnt think thats whats wrong even though the glucose test was so high


Diabetes does, however, happen whether she has had a case or not!

When I first mentioned diabetes as a possibility I did a little research and came up with this site which I thought could be useful if the glucose levels turned out to be high as it gives information on hollistic treatments and treatment by diet.

http://www.wellvet.com/diabeticbirds.html

I don't think it would harm Pretty Boy to adjust his diet to one with a reduced sugar content, but remember that the foods that they recommend may not all be pigeon foods, these sites are often aimed at the treatment of hookbills.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was also thinking to get rid of the pelletized feed and the corn. Looks like it's "goodbye" to the Edmond's Best--that's loaded with popcorn. You might consider getting the Edmond's Breeder or Racer and sieving out the field corn altogether. It probably would be a good idea to get the pee-papers that we mentioned earlier and start testing the urine on a regular basis to see what foods bring the sugar down the best. It's tough teaching a bird to change its diet.

After a cursory glance, some forms of avian diabetes are caused from a pathogenic origin (some diseases that are sometimes otherwise undetectable) and may be resolved if that underlying cause can be addressed.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the references in the Big Book (Avian Medicine: Principles and Application, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, Wingers Publishing, 1994) didn't pan out for the kinds of things that I was hoping for (some kind of disease that could be resolved the easy way). However it does confirm that Diabetes Mellitus has been diagnosed in domestic pigeons before. There is also a page (1283) that documents a Toucan that they were able to manage the diabetes with a dietary change:

Hopefully, available treatments and medications have advanced in the 10 years since the references above were published.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi angell,

In all my travels looking for things, I did come up with a highly relevant link,
maybe.....for Lola, lol:

http://www.animalnetwork.com/vpn/detail.aspx?aid=11363&cid=3874&category=

I was looking around for why you might have had a low white blood cell count. Most references say a high white blood cell count is a bacterial infection, and low white blood cell counts viral, although they can also be low from a toxic substance ( I think that one was lead that I saw), or that a drug can also cause low white cell counts. I did find one site that said a severe infection can be reflected as a low white blood cell count. Also, that elevated glucose levels 'may' indicate diabetes.
That information is here:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...lood+cell+count&d=WvsIrkaqMk3X&icp=1&.intl=us

I also found a site discussing avian blood glucose levels that said, "Diabetes mellitus is uncommon in birds but is associated with glucose levels persistently above 900 mg/dl." That information is here:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...lood+cell+count&d=c13tG0aqMkd0&icp=1&.intl=us

I've sent the link to JGregg for this thread and spoke over the phone about it briefly today. Apparently an infection can cause a flare up in a diabetic bird's condition. Also mentioned was the poops actually smelling sweet like sugar.

Now the quotes above refer to 'persistent glucose levels above 900mg/dl',and 'elevated glucose levels may indicate diabetes', and I'm not sure what that would mean if there were no explanation as to why it could spike and not be diabetes. Both sites did have reservations in all out declaring diabetes w/elevated glucose levels. So, you're gonna have to pick the doctors' brains and find out what would cause the blood glucose to spike other than diabetes and see if any of the explanations might make sense for Pretty Boy.This is where being able to 'read' results really comes in handy, and it's a pretty technical area. In any event, treating the situation through changes in diet until you are certain of all of the intricacies of the situation would seem wise. You'll probably hear from JGregg tomorrow.

fp

All right, I did just find this in a non-vet site about other causes for elevated blood glucose levels:

"Aside from diabetes, the many other causes of high blood sugar include just eating more sugar (or food) than usual, the presence of an infection or another illness, an injury and the stress of surgery."

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...+glucose+levels&d=E8nqCEaqMvuQ&icp=1&.intl=us

Although, would this produce the levels found in Pretty Boy's tests?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Angill,

fp and I have been chewing this one over behind the scenes and we wonder why the bird was given the Cephalexin in the first place on this go around. Have there been any symptoms like a nasal discharge, irritation or swelling around the eyes or any seeming difficulties in breathing?

Pidgey


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*Angills Pretty Boy*

Hey guys! The only reason he was on cephalexin in the first place is because thats what my vet followed up with when he first got sick 5 yrs ago. No other reason than that. He didnt have any of the symptoms you listed above. I will post later today after my vet in Enid talks to the one in Edmond. Thanks guys and have a good day.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You mean for this go-around, the chronology is:

1) Drinking more water

2) First vet visit this go-around who gave Baytril

3) No change other than the mold starting later in the course of the problem

and the Cephalexin was way back five years ago?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

4) Diarrhea:

Clear fluids around solid strands/strings, or around loose runny poops, or around formed poops or just perfectly clear, or.......? If fecal matter present, coloration?

Sweet or pungent smelling...maybe both or other?

And it was pretty much exactly the same as 5 years ago or what if any differences?

fp


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

Hey guys! I have a little information for yall. lets hope I can keep it straight. Here goes. I posted in thread # 57 the order of symptoms and treatment. Also I had my vet call the vet in Edmond today and here is what I understood. The vet in Edmond consulted with Pillar Fish(i dont know if you all know who she is but my vet here in Enid did.), and from the results in the blood work they think the high glucose level may be from chlmidia. I probably butchered the spelling of the word. I hope you no what Im trying to write. I guess the disease is very hard to test for so he is taking a shot in the dark and treating Pretty Boy for it with the doxy. Im also still giving him the diflucan and probiotics. My poor bird is going to be a druggie before it is all over with. The vet in Edmond decided to use injection to give his intestines a little bit of a break. Also I did find out that his liver enzymes were a little high, but they are not too concerned about that. Hope this helps. i am going to go back and read over the threads yall posted (pidgey, fp) and be sure I answered all of your questions!!!


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

The symptoms were pretty much the same 5 years ago. Except his cage never grew mold. He just got so sick that he wouldnt fly. He has never had any nasal drainage or eye mucus or anything like that.


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

Oh I forgot my vet said he learned to today that birds are glucagon dependent not insulin dependent. Does that make since??


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Glucagon and insulin work together in a negitive feedback system.

Did the poop smell sweet when you bird was sick and drinking a lot of water?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

fp and I were wondering if the vets were suspecting Chlamydiosis because of the choice of Doxycycline. We almost never use that one for anything else. Duh! After going back and reading the post again I see that's exactly what you said. I guess what I really mean is more of a "why" instead of a "what" but the only person to answer that would be Pilar Fish.

Pilar Fish is the avian vet that I posted that you might take the bird to back earlier in this thread.

If I read it correctly, glucogon is about the opposite of insulin--insulin prepares glucose for the conversion to glycogen and glucogon accelerates the conversion of glycogen into glucose in the liver. For a bird with high serum glucose, you'd tend to suspect the overproduction of glucogon more than an underproduction of insulin for what that's worth.

Pidgey


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

My husband and I are trying to decide if Pretty Boys poops smell "sweet", and I think we have come to the conclusion that it does. Its kinda a sick-sweet smell. Sick I think because its poops and sweet is the other odor. Definitely does not smell like my other bird's poops. I am worried about his diet now. I cant easily get back to Edmond this week to buy him Edmond racer, so should I start picking corn and stuff from the food I already have (Edmonds Best)? I also bought some avian maintenance natural diet food that says it is fortified with vitamins and minerals ( it says it for cockatiels). The ingedients are ground corn, soybean meal, ground wheat, veg oil, wheat germ, sucrose, calcium carbonate, ground veggies (carrots, celery, beets, watercress, and spinach, etc... etc... What do yall think? Should I still pull the grit from him since he is not on Baytril anymore? Well he be able to digest okay?


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

If anyone would like to call me I would be glad to converse over the phone. You can email me I would be glad to give you my number or I will call you!!!!!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Take the grit away when you're using Tetracyclines like Doxycycline. I'm not sure how or if it affects that drug when you're using parenteral (shots) administration of a drug but better safe than sorry.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Your best advice is going to come through JGregg though.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Take the grit away when you're using Tetracyclines like Doxycycline. I'm not sure how or if it affects that drug when you're using parenteral (shots) administration of a drug but better safe than sorry.
> 
> Pidgey



No matter how you use the tetracycline do not give grit or any calcium. Calcium binds the drug and makes it ineffective.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi angell,

Did the doctor's say how long Pretty Boy would be on the Doxycycline for and what the mg dose rate was?? I would definitely pull the grit, I don't think that your bird will suffer as a result, and as mentioned, it will interfere w/absorption.
Also, make sure that any diet he is on does not have any calcium additive to it.
If you get a chance, look at this and see if you can give more info, although not so much for input here, as just for my (our) own information in the future:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=131104&postcount=71

I wondered about this as a possibility a ways back as this is one of these illnesses that is bacterial/viral and can have relapses. A precautionary note would be to make sure that you wash hands before and after handling Pretty Boy--not to bring him anything that will further stress his system, and not to carry any thing away from him as well.

As with any illness, make sure you disinfect things from his cage, and keep his 
cage equipment separate from your other bird. Please keep us updated with
Pretty Boy's condition. 

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi,

Just a warning in case the vet didn't remind you, if it is chlamydiosis (surely that would show up in a test and there would be a positive diagnosis?) then there is the risk of you catching it so be careful about close contact, kissing, cuddling, petting and wash your hands after handling him. 

It can be a nasty and sometimes dangerous disease in humans if it is not recognised and treated promptly, the symptoms are "vague flu-like symptoms".

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doesn't much add up, does it? It seems like there are just too many assumptions to have to be made here. If they've had a bird with Chlamydiosis since that first bout five years ago, you'd have thought that it would show up with a little more of the normal symptoms. I read the entire article on Chlamydiosis in the book and didn't see anything about glucosuria, PU/PD or hyperglycemia.

Chlamydia is an obligate intracellular parasite. It literally gets inside cells and goes through a few changes of its own when commandeering the cellular metabolic processes for its own replication purposes. In this respect, it behaves similar to a virus while not actually being one. When hard pressed, it can hide inside certain cells and go dormant as a clinical disease presenting symptoms.

Different note--I suspect that JGregg and Angill teleconferenced and we're probably out of the loop for awhile.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And I suspected wrong--Angill informed me in an email that she didn't talk to JGregg. Oh, well, I was hopin'!

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*Chlamydophila psittaci*

Chlamydophila psittaci, the new term for what was at one time referred to as
Chlamydia psittaci is a disease that is still under investigation and the scientific community's understanding of it is changing all the time. It's apparently similar enough to both bacterial and viral organisms that it is referred to under both
categories, and you can find articles at the CDC referring to it as a virus. It is similar to a virus yet unlike many bacteria, in that it lives inside the cells. With the new classification of the disease, it is changing the bad rap that birds have received in the past in that, it can be contracted by birds from other species.It is also believed that it can be vertically transmitted through the egg. 

In order for there to be a confirmed diagnosis, it has to have at least one positive lab confirmed test result. I'm not sure that this actually happened for Pretty Boy, and perhaps, in absence of the test results confirming this, they are treating for it anyway.

fp


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I PM'd her and got no reply! That was Monday night.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She might simply not know how the PM system works, then. I've only dealt with her on the board and through email, I think. Can you try that?

Pidgey


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

I pm'd jgregg back monday night. She should have got it. Pretty Boy is still the same. his stools however do still seem as liquidy, but instead of being completely clear they are getting some cloudiness to some of them. Also in response to fp on the doxy- the dose is like 500th of a cc. One shot now and then another in 7 days. He also got a b-12 injection. I guess now we sit and wait and see if the doxy works. I sure hope so. If not I dont know what Ill do next. Buy the way fp-thanx for the info for Lola. By the way Lola is doing great. She is elmost housbroke even. Pigs really are as smart as they say. That surprised me.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I haven't read anything to connect (that does not mean that it doesn't exist) Chlamydiosis with diabetes. Have you taken away the corn and pellets and worked on changing the diet as some of those references indicated?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm wondering at this point, angell, if the vets have given you any firm diagnosis beyond the suspicion of Chlamydiosis....have they discussed the possibility of diabetes w/you? Anyhow, I'm sure you and JGregg will hook up, just probably missing a bit right now.

fp

Glad you liked the link....do you have any pics of Pretty Boy and Lola that you can post??


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Hey there, looks like the PT server is having trouble. Apparently you didn't get the last two PMs angill!

Diabetes in avians is sporradic, the bird can be fine for a while then sick for a while. If Pretty Boy is diabetic what you thought was his responding to the treatment given could be him just getting better on his own.

Acid (my 12 yr old pigeon) would drink excessive amounts or water, poop out glucose (sweet smelling watery poop) loose feathers out of molt, and grow malformed feathers (stress lines, and truncated feathers) when in a diabetic bout.

Alfalfa stimulates the production of the avian analog of insulin. You'll need to get alfalfa tablets at a GNC (or other nutrition store). The ones you'll want have the alfalfa powder in the gelcap, so you can open the tablet to get the powder out. Mix some water with the alfalfa powder until you have a paste you can put in a syringe, and feed about 1/4 cc to Pretty Boy per day. I'll warn 'ya he's gonna be one unhappy pidge while you do it!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi angell,

Still think you hooking up with Rober Lee, one of our moderators, would be very helpful for you. He could show you how to crop syringe and give you other helpful pointers. He also recently posted on a product called Oxine AH that is used as a disinfectant, and for other medical capabilities as well. He could really give you a one-to-one boost on the topic of pigeons in all aspects. You could private mail him.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Diabetes in avians is sporradic,


Now that is something I would not even have suspected! Thanks JGregg!

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

JGregg said:


> Diabetes in avians is sporradic, the bird can be fine for a while then sick for a while.
> Alfalfa stimulates the production of the avian analog of insulin. You'll need to get alfalfa tablets at a GNC (or other nutrition store). The ones you'll want have the alfalfa powder in the gelcap, so you can open the tablet to get the powder out. Mix some water with the alfalfa powder until you have a paste you can put in a syringe, and feed about 1/4 cc to Pretty Boy per day. I'll warn 'ya he's gonna be one unhappy pidge while you do it!


Hi JGregg,

Thanks for the information, it is very interesting.

What about administering the whole cap at once, or is that too much of a dose? I give my birds garlic and other caps at times with no problems at all.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I don't see where it'd hurt, though I've never done it.


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

Welp guys and gals, this is just an update on Pretty Boy. He is doing a little better. His water consumption is still up a little and his stools are still loose. I took him back to the vet today to get his second shot of doxy. Poor guy! He probably wouldnt know what to do if he wasnt getting a shot or something crammed down is beak every day. He is finished with the diflucan. The vet said to give him the probiotics for 2 weeks. That would have ended yesterday. Im wandering if I should keep him on them?? Any opinions?? Also his stools dont seem to be as sweet smelling in his cage as they were and they are better. I dont have to change his cage as often. JGregg I have looked for alfalfa capsules and cant find any. Im going to Oklahoma City this weekend and am gonna look there. Our GNC store here only has the tablets. Thats my luck though. If I cant find them there, then I guess I will search online. Thanks every one for all your time and advice. Oh and thanx Pidgey for the call. That was very thoughful of you. Now I know who to call when I need someone to care for the next sick pidgeon I find


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I wonder if you could simply grind up a tablet and get the same effect? JGregg will hopefully see this and answer that question, although I can't see how it could possibly hurt to try as alfalfa isn't a drug.

You're welcome.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Regarding:Alfalfa

Check the product ingredients & make sure there is nothing else in it. You might be able to crush the alfalfa tablets on a cutting board with a spoon.

I would continue the probiotics, it will continue to support healthy gut flora , as that is a big issue when a bird sick and under a great deal of stress.


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## angill (May 10, 2006)

*My pretty boy*

I just wanted to thank every one and give yall a quick update. Pretty Boy is doing great. He is back to normal 100 %. You would never even know he was sick. I am so glad I found this web site. Everyones help and educated guesses were very helpful. I would like to give a special thanks to Pidgey. Thank you for being so concerned. Happy Holidays to every one and I hope I dont need your "educated guesses" again.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you're welcome, but I don't know that we really did much of anything other than to provide moral support. If memory serves, about the only thing that you actually did was remove corn from the diet and the bird ended up on Doxycycline because the vet thought that Chlamydiophila was involved. You never tried JGregg's alfalfa trick as I recall. I'd have to go back and read it all again and there's precious little time anymore, it seems. I'm glad to hear that Pretty Boy's maintaining an even keel though and I'm sure that it's a lot easier to keep the house clean now.

Pidgey


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