# ACV: Anti or Pro Bacteria?



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Apparently both, depending on the environmental preference of the type of bacteria in question. According to this article from albertaclassic.com, bacteria such as e.coli and salmonella do not favor an acidic environment, so by introducing the acv into the crop, they are unlikely to thrive there.
Lactobacilli, which favor an acidic environment, are encouraged to grow with the introduction of acv into the crop.

While not surviving the journey to the colon, the acv promotes the introduction of lactobacilli into the colon by favoring the good bacteria over the bad bacteria and providing an environment where it will succeed and multiply.

http://www.albertaclassic.com/2005/Vinegar.php

This example of how natural anti-biotics as opposed to chemical anti-biotics
will impact bad bacteria, while promoting beneficial bacteria is one of the many plusses for using pro-actively.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the information, and it is exciting to see the evidence first hand of weekly use of ACV and pro-biotics. 

So, now I'm puzzled, does it matter whether the ACV be introduced first and then a day later the probiotics or can we give both together at the same time? Mmmm.....this may "ruffle a few feathers" of the racing crowd I know, who have taught me forever, use one day ACV in the water, one day plain water, followed by two days of probiotics, if I change the order of things.

I haven't seen any salmonellas or e-coli in my flock (48 pigeons) since I've had pigeons for 4 years, but have had a 3 year old hen come down with cocci this year, but that was brought on by stress of being eggbound. 

Treesa


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Treesa, 


FP's information is correct, ACV provides an acidic environment in the gut and only the good bacteria benefit from this. The bad bacteria are out of their "element" in this type of equilibrium.

I always wondered why you thought that ACV had to be given after probiotics....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

And as well, 

This is the reason that probiotics are also named acidophilus....because they are bacterium that favour acidic enironments


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brad,

Actually we were giving probiotics after the ACV, per the way I was tought.

Okay, so the probiotics can be given the same time as the ACV, is that correct?

Thank you Brad, and fp, I will make the necessary changes in the Prevention & maintenance and let the racing club read the information from the web site.


Treesa


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi there,

From another article by Chalmers @ the same site:

" Now, E. coli and paratyphoid organisms much prefer to live and reproduce in slightly alkaline conditions, whereas in a hostile acidic environment, their numbers can drop drastically (in some studies, up to 97%). In promoting the use of such products, where practical, to reduce the heavy reliance on antibiotics to solve health problems in pigeons, I have been advocating not only the use of probiotics and a small amount of apple cider vinegar (5-10 cc per litre, or 1 - 2 teaspoons per US gallon [4 litres] of drinking water, as suggested by Dr Colin Walker of Austalia) to help acidify intestinal contents, and thereby create conditions that are hostile to the survival of E.coli and paratyphoid bacteria."

This doesn't mean you'll get an old dog, hmmmm, well, old "bird" to do a new trick, but different strokes, etc. However, one can be assured that the acv will not "kill" good bacteria because it is "anti-biotic". Rather it has anti-biotic
characteristics in that it discourages bacteria that prefer alkaline conditions, those forms of bacteria being "bad" bacteria and encourages growth of acid loving bacteria ie. good or pro-biotic bacteria. 

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmm...

I have been useing from one to two Tablespoons full to-the gallon...

For occasions of either suspected Candida, or, at times, for nonspecific diagnosis of poops looking 'off' in various ways.

So far, them and I have been happy with the results.

Maybe my concentration is a little high, but if I taste the water at that concentration, it is hardly much different than plain water.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

fp,

Thank you for an "official dosage". I have been reading of dosages anywhere from 2 teaspoons to a full cup per gallon! The key to getting them to drink the ACV water, is to keep it at a minimum, where they still drink fully of the water and where it is still effective. I finally got mine to drink it at 1 teaspoon per 1/2 gallon. If the 1 teaspoon to a gallon is the minimum where the ACV will do any good, then that is where to start.

They do have to drink it readily for it to do any good, so I also emphasize don't put out any swimming pool water either, as they will drink from the pool, no matter how much or little is in the drinker.

Talk about teaching an old bird new tricks....The first time I put ACV in the water, the dose was too high and I cought them trying to drink the drops of water hanging off the hardware cloth after the rain! LOL. They will go to extremes to avoid it! 

Treesa


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Treesa & Phil,

The standard dosing I run into is 1tbsp. per gallon. Chalmers suggests a little less. If the acidity is too high, it can interfere w/fertility (so I guess acid rain w/be a natural form of birth control?). While we may not notice a difference in taste between one or one and a half tablespoons, the acidity level of the drinking water is what is important.
Is it within the normal range that their body would produce or operate with in a healthy state?

Yup, if they don't like the mix, it just sits there, although I've read of people dosng @ 1/4 cup acv to gal and birds drinking w/very bad results, as in autopsy time and too acidic an environment.  

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

1 tablespoon per gallon is also what Foy's recommends as well. However since the intake is measured by how much a bird drinks, I tend to adjust the amount in the winter vs. summer. The birds obviously drink more in hot weather than in the cold months so I add a little extra in the winter time. And since this isn't a medication as such, this isn't really a problem


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> 1 tablespoon per gallon is also what Foy's recommends as well. However since the intake is measured by how much a bird drinks, I tend to adjust the amount in the winter vs. summer. The birds obviously drink more in hot weather than in the cold months so I add a little extra in the winter time. And since this isn't a medication as such, this isn't really a problem



Hi Brad,

"A little is probably OK, but again the above mentioned comes from what I've read from various members who've posted, some w/vets input. 

The "natural meds" have a range and while not necessarily an OD situation, can cause other issues to occur.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ahhhhh...okay, so...roughly one Tablespoon of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the Gallon of Water...

Maybe less in summer when they drink more...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Ahhhhh...okay, so...roughly one Tablespoon of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to the Gallon of Water...
> 
> Maybe less in summer when they drink more...
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,

That would seem correct according to this article:

http://www.pipay.be/artikelsnew/talaber/apple.htm

Scroll down to the next to last paragraph, you got it.

fp


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Yokurt*

Can it be used as a proboitic?


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

You can use Yogurt although it's much easier to get a powder from your health food store or a pigeon probiotic which is widely available at pigeon stores online.. 

Also my avian vet said that the yogurt should be organic...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

upcd said:


> Can it be used as a proboitic?


In the sense that it creates the environment that good bacteria produced by the system need to flourish, yes. It will not kill the good bacteria, instead encourage its growth. There are doctors that recommend it's use after an anti-biotic to re-establish good intestinal flora and for good digestion and absorption of nutrients. However, it does not "dump" good bacteria into the system in the way that probiotics do. It would seem that the two could be used concurrently to ensure the probiotics of success. That would presume that one could be mixed w/food and one w/water. You need to make sure that the probiotic that you do use has "active/live" culture in it, as it has been reported that some of them claiming to have certain cultures in fact are doa to customer and the benefits are not actually present as claimed.

Tumeric, btw, is a culinary herb that also helps to re-establish good flora.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Wow! I never knew that about the Turmeric, this is a good tip!

Thanks


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*homemade*

yokurt. Can it be made by leaving milk out? After so many days it becomes solid. At what stage does milk become yokurt? How do you use the herb? Mixed with greens or in food or water?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*forgot the 1st r*

Hi Debbie,

It actually has two 'r' 's....spelling error first time I posted. Here's a link that has a few pages on the herb, including history and recipes:

http://homecooking.about.com/cs/spices/a/turmeric.htm

Interestingly enough, it's apparently from the ginger family which is frequently used in root form for gastro intestinal "flu" recipes in the herbal remedy circles.

As far as leaving milk out, I don't believe that this will cause it to turn to yogurt. Think you need to pick up a kit w/a starter culture in order to make yogurt. 

Here's a link for yogurt:

http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/yogurt.html

Hope this helps,

fp


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*herb*

How do you feed this herb to pigeons? If it si similiar to ginger can ginger be used too?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

upcd said:


> How do you feed this herb to pigeons? If it si similiar to ginger can ginger be used too?


Hi Debby,

Would think as a tea, if you are using fresh root 2-3 slices simmered in a quart of water for 20 min. If powdered form, on lightly oiled seed, the amount there is a good question. Perhaps someone knows definitively. But you want something stepped down from the medicinal dosing for humans. Have to check on that one. 

fp


OK--
Curcuma Domestica/Turmeric, would be 1.5-3 grams powder, 2-3 times a day for a human. Seems on calcium, it is 1/4 of what a human would take, don't know if that is a standard reduction or not for all supplements. 

It is used for worms as well as being antimicrobial among other things. Has no reported adverse reactions as medicinal herb.

OK again--Here's a link to iHerb where you can look up medicinal properties and studies on-line:

http://www.herbalgram.org/iherb/herbclip/review.asp?i=41914

The dose rate I noted above would be from PDR for Herbal Medicine, First Ed. and the dose rate @ iHerb is "weighing in" a little lower @ 2 grams. There are many articles on it and if you use the search engine feature you'll find the others. Good link to bookmark for looking up alternative approaches and studies.

fp


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