# IS there anyone out there having experience with Silverdene?



## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

I have a bird that I picked up for a broken leg. When I got the bird home, I saw a triangular piece of plastic or metal embedded in the thigh. When I pulled it out, there was profuse bleeding and in order to stop it even before I dealt with the broken thigh, I had to put in three sutures and that stopped it. He lost a lot of blood before I was able to stop it. This was a week and a half ago. I took out the sutures in three days because the skin through which the sutures went was becoming necrotic so it wasn't going to hold anyway.

I splinted the broken bone by using inflexible wires and put him on Baytril. Yesterday, I changed the dressing and found that so much tissue had died, that when I cleaned it off, the bone was visible and there was very little viable tissue left. Everything in the way of soft tissue in this very huge wound is dying or is already dead. Once the bone turns black, it's all over. Nothing can replace dead bone but right now, it's still white in color.

I called two avian vets for advice. One said to definitely put the bird to sleep, that since there is nothing to suture, the wound will become infected and the bone will die. The other said to use a wet dressing and keep him going in the hopes that vascular formation would eventually occur and begin to close this wound up. The vet suggested putting in some sutures but there is nothing left for sutures to hold onto. I'm not willing to give up on this bird yet. A week and a half is not enough time to make any kind of a decision like that.

By using a wet dressing, I'm applying Neosporin antibiotic ointment, covering the open wound with gauze but I would like to know from you if Silverdene would be better. Apparently, Silverdene is available by prescription but the 1% is not so I ordered it from an online store. There is an apparent benefit to using Silverdene in that it can eat necrotic tissue and the faster that happens, the faster the body can start to build up granulation tissue. 

Silverdene has propyl alchohol in it and so I'm also concerned about the pain an alcohol can cause on such an open and deep wound. Imagine the upper half of the thigh. As you run your eyes along it drops off like a cliff and you then see a canoe, wide open with everything to see inside. Then, the cliff rises straight up and you get to the hock joint which was not affected.

Amputation is always an option and will remain so but I want to first try and save that leg. I don't have any illusions about that possibility. Frankly, I don't think anything will work in time before infection sets in and the bone dies but I figured I would put this out to everyone for comments and opinions especially about the use of 1% Silverdene.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I learned from the clinic to use silvadene, we used it on any wound, it is a great product in helping healing and keeping infection away. I even tried to see if wounds heal faster with silvadene than with neosporin and they do.
The worst wound I tried it on was on a bird with the skin of the scalp missing, an area of about 2cm in diameter. The skull bone was exposed. It took about a month for it to heal and now the skull is covered again by skin. Since i was afraid od silver poisoning I applied the silvadene for a week then switched to neosporin for a week and then back to silvadene.
During my rotation in the trauma ICU we used silvadene on third degree burns and they seemed to heal great, and the patients had no infections during all the time they were healing.
Also it is used in decubitus ulcers where there is a lot of tissue necrosis involved. The necrotic tissue has to be removes as it is dead already and serves no purpose, but many ulcers healed great. The worst I saw was going way deep into the pelvis exposing bone, it was about 10cm in diameter and it was healing, the skin was growing over.

Reti.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Fred, I'm not sure if you are talking about Silver Sulfadene or not but we have used this product numerous times on open wounds and to me, it is just the absolute best thing I've ever used. Our most recent pigeon that we used it on was attacked by a hawk and had a deep wound. In addition to giving it Baytril and Nystatin, we kept it covered in Silver Sulfadene and it healed beautifully.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

Maggie,
This is 1% Silver Sulfadiazine Cream, 50 gram jar. I hope I ordered the right drug.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

Reti,
What you wrote is encouraging so I just have to hope for the best possible outcome.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Fred, I believe that is correct. Ours is 1%. I'm not sure if it comes in a jar or not because our vet just fills up a large pill container each time we need some.  

Good luck to you with this one. She is in good hands.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

Maggie,
Thanks but I'm not optimistic. Not that I won't give it my very best. While I'm waiting for delivery of the ointment, I'm changing the dressings every day. I'm pretty relieved that it is the 1% cream and not a stronger one.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You may want to consider giving this bird both Metronidazole and a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo as each of those drugs penetrate and work very well in necrotic tissue.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

Pidgey,
He was on Trimethoprim/Sulfa/Ronidazle for the first 7 days to control any coccidia, canker and bacterial, then Baytril but adding Metronadazole is an excellent idea. I'll do that and thanks for the suggestion.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you were actually having a problem with true gangrene from some Clostridium, that'd be one of the drugs to use. I don't think we see that very often. BeanTree had that bird that'd gotten partially electrocuted and it may have turned out better if we'd have gotten the bird on Flagyl within the first day or so.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

No sign of gangrene at least not yet. When I change his dressing, the area bleeds and that's a good thing. I just dosed him with Metronadazole. He's going to get a yeast infection from all of this and I'm ready for that too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Fred, I'm not sure if you are talking about Silver Sulfadene or not but we have used this product numerous times on open wounds and to me, it is just the absolute best thing I've ever used. Our most recent pigeon that we used it on was attacked by a hawk and had a deep wound. In addition to giving it Baytril and Nystatin, we kept it covered in Silver Sulfadene and it healed beautifully.




How would 'Neosporin' compare with this?


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The avian vets in this area do use Silvadene for wounds, Fred. I will tell you
that where wounds w/broken bone is concerned and the possibility of dying
bone that another option is Povidone Iodine Ointment USP, 10% as it helps to 
keep the area from drying out. Either of these two would be recommended
by the many avian vets I "toggle" amongst. If using Silvadene, one would
basically change the dressing more frequently. The Silvadene is feather
friendly, so for a bird that may well be releasable sooner than later, it avoids
the feather issues that petroleum based products inflict as "colateral damage".

fp


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi fp,
I would never use an ointment anywhere near feathers. Since this is on the leg, I pulled some interfering feathers coming down, before putting the Neosporin on.
He's wrapped up very well to keep the ointment away from the body. I'll Google Povidone Iodine Ointment USP, 10% and see if I can read up on it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Did you know that Neosporin makes a water soluble antibiotic cream that can be used in feathered areas?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> How would 'Neosporin' compare with this?
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v


Phil, I honestly don't know the answer to your question. All I can say is that for an open wound our vets have always had us apply the Silver Sulfadene.

We do keep Neosporin on hand and have used it for minor scratches, scrapes, etc but for the deep wounds the Silver Sulfadene can't be beat.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Hi fp,
> I would never use an ointment anywhere near feathers. Since this is on the leg, I pulled some interfering feathers coming down, before putting the Neosporin on.
> He's wrapped up very well to keep the ointment away from the body. I'll Google Povidone Iodine Ointment USP, 10% and see if I can read up on it. Thanks for the suggestion.
> Did you know that Neosporin makes a water soluble antibiotic cream that can be used in feathered areas?


Yes, I'm aware of that and keep Neosporin Cream on hand. To tell you the
truth, I prefer Silvadene to Neosporin Creme, though I have not heard of it
being used as a debrider per se. If a scab develops, and it is thick enough, Fred, mold will sometimes grow in the scab itself. You might want to consider
giving him a systemic antifungal (like Itraconizole) alongside the antibiotics.

I wouldn't use a petroleum based product randomly, but if a bird has bigger
fish to fry, and you have a specific target location & reason for the use
of ointment, then so be it. 

By the way, on the choice of dressing for the wound, there is a type of 2x2
or 4x4 bandaging that has a 'plasitcized' covering to the pad which works well
in that the gauze won't 'become one w/the wound' and disrupt the healing
process everytime you change the dressing. 

Good luck w/this one, Fred, pij is mighty lucky to be in your care.

fp


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

fp,
Thanks.
Are you referring to Nexcare? I love those dressings but they are a real pain in trying to take them off of their paper bases.

Gauze is not the best covering to use because as you wrote, it tends to become part of the wound. There are two wires running from the fibula all the way to the base of the shin in order to keep the bone in place and they have the secondary effect of keeping the gauze off of the wound.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

fp,
I Googled Povidone Iodine. It's the ointment form of Betadyne liquid. It's an excellent disinfectant and I wonder if Nolvasan ointment is equal to it. 
The Silver Sulphadiazine ointment was delivered today and is being used on the bird's wound.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Povidone iodine inhibits cell growth, I wouldn't use it on large open wounds where you want the tissue to grow back.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> Povidone iodine inhibits cell growth, I wouldn't use it on large open wounds where you want the tissue to grow back.
> 
> Reti


I don't know all the instances that Oakley Center for Birds would use it
for, Reti, but they have given it to me to use especially in an instance of
not wanting bone to dry up in conjunction w/an open wound, though I 
wouldn't call it a large open wound. I will try and remember to ask about
it.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Hi fp,
> I would never use an ointment anywhere near feathers. Since this is on the leg, I pulled some interfering feathers coming down, before putting the Neosporin on.
> He's wrapped up very well to keep the ointment away from the body. I'll Google Povidone Iodine Ointment USP, 10% and see if I can read up on it. Thanks for the suggestion.
> Did you know that Neosporin makes a water soluble antibiotic cream that can be used in feathered areas?




Hi Pigeonperson, 


Hmmmmm...I never thought about that, but then too, my use of it for various injurys has been to apply it to Skin and wound areas, and some of it does wick up into the Feathers a little, but I never thought to decide that it would matter.


If it's base is more or less like Vasolene, it would be no danger to them in preening or otherwise getting it into their Beaks or system some tiny TINY bit or other, as it would be a neutral substance akin to Mineral Oil, and at worst, might make for a Laxitive effect if they got enough of it into themselves...


I am not aware of any 'Water' based versions of Neosporin, nor how well it would make and keep things moist, if there were.


Are you saying there are Water based version?


I will do some 'googles'...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that and keep Neosporin Cream on hand. To tell you the
> truth, I prefer Silvadene to Neosporin Creme, though I have not heard of it
> being used as a debrider per se. If a scab develops, and it is thick enough, Fred, mold will sometimes grow in the scab itself. You might want to consider
> giving him a systemic antifungal (like Itraconizole) alongside the antibiotics.
> ...



Hi fp, all...



I think any wound requiring debriding, should be debrided as an actual thing one does, prior to putting dressings on it.

I myself never fuss with or remove Scabs, and I have never seen any reason to do so.

Are removing scabs what you mean by 'debriding' here in this context? Or???


Neoporin, considered in general ways, would not be used as a debrider as far as I know, but, as a topical antibiotic which also moistens skin and allows Scabs to remain moist and as suppl as possible.


I have never seen a scab 'moulder' and never even thought about it..!


But I doubt a scab could moulder if it has been liberally kept moist with Neorporin.


Nitrofurizone Powder is a wonderful topical antibiotic for putting a little 'in' punctures or deep bites, AFTER they are sluiced out well, and I have never seen one infect when this is done. Otherwise, it is a dry powder, and as itself, would be unsuited for keeping things moist and supple as they heal.

I understand for Equestrian contexts that various Nitrofurizone Ointments are available ( BIG containers! ) and this likely would also be excellent for various Bird injurys.


Large open wounds would seem to me to recommend sutures once cleaned out...rather than topical applications per-se...so...I dunno how large open wounds got mixed in to this.

But if not enough skin remains for suturing, I can say in my experience, keeping the flayed skinned area liberally slathed wiht Neosporin has worked very very nicely with ones I have had.


I will look into getting some of the Silveadene...sounds like good stuff to have in the kit.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil,

Debriding is the process of removing non-viable tissue that is accumulating 
and interfering, if you will, w/the growth of new and healthy tissue and wound
closure. Scabbing, can be a good thing in that it protects an open area from
bacteria getting inside.

Some dressings themselves, are debriders, as in enzymatic debriders such
as Panofil. I just haven't heard that Silvadene specifically had debriding 
capabilities though perhaps it does. 

In general, using ointments where there are feathers or where the ointment
will get on the feathers, is a Big No-No, as it will damage the feathers, Phil.
Silvadene will not do this nor will the cremes. I do think there needs to be
discernment as in a bird that has a long haul ahead of it and not releasable
for some time to come also needing to have an area remain moist, would
be a candidate for using an ointment as opposed to a creme. There are other
more specific occasions for making that choice as well.

fp

fp


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2007)

Phil,
All ointments have oil bases to them. Aside from the obvious in that the ointments will destroy the insulation abilities, they can also clog pores causing potential problems for new feathers coming in.
Neosporin makes Neosporin antibiotic cream which is safe to use because it's water soluble.
If you Google Silverdene, put the search in for Silver Sulphadiazine. Another name for it is Therazine.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I did inquire about Povidone Iodine ointment, and Dr. Ford's response was that
there was some debate around cell growth, though it didn't sound definitive. He
did say it's original purpose was to treat burns and he still uses it for this. If you google it, seems that there are some guidelines regarding how long to use
it as a topical. Interestingly, as a flush, they don't use a 10% solution at the
Bird Clinic, but instead put enough in the sterile water to give it a caramel coloring---like just a couple of sqirts from the squirt bottle into let's say a third
of a cup of water, fairly dilute.

I did find this interesting PDF file on wound care from a UK site intended for
human wound care. 

http://www.lewishampct.nhs.uk/document_view.php?PID=0000000212&DID=00000000000000001171

Here is an excerpt regarding Povidone Iodine:

"POVIDONE-IODINE DRESSING
Povidone-iodine is an anti-microbial agent with a broad spectrum of activity.
Povidone iodine dressings contain 10% povidone-iodine. In the presence of wound fluid, the povidone-iodine is released.
Not Suitable: Patients who are sensitive to iodine or povidone- iodine. (Use with caution in pregnant or lactating mothers, because of possible effects of elevated serum iodide levels on foetus/neonate.)
Application: Apply directly to wound surface.
Frequency: Depends primarily upon the condition of the wound. Condition of the wound may initially need daily dressings. However, it is unlikely the dressing will retain significant levels of antimicrobial activity if left in position longer than 2 days.
Secondary Dressing: Cover with Foam dressing or Gauze.
Removal: This dressing should not adhere to the wound bed.
If it does, irrigate with saline or warm tap water."

This is an interesting site and the second pamphlet in the PDF file discusses kinds of dressings including Povidone Iodine, Honey, Silver, & many more along with which wounds need which dressings. There are also many links
provided to other sites on wound care.

It's probably better to download this one as a PDF file as opposed to bookmarking it as down the road, who knows what will become of the link.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil,
> 
> Debriding is the process of removing non-viable tissue that is accumulating
> and interfering, if you will, w/the growth of new and healthy tissue and wound
> ...



Hi fp, 


Yahhhhh...I was not thinking for some reason about examples unfamiliar to me, within the larger gamut of possible debriding scenarios.

Or, I was thinking of healthy scabs that form on abrasive or chewed or laceration injurys, which I elect to keep moist using Neosporin to do so.


Different kinds of injurys of course would have their own particulars, and much of what I was thinking back on were various degrees of Dor or Cat maulings, chewed areas, 'hamburger' looking backs and rear ends...some Car Whcaked scrapes which took most of the Skin off, and of course the Feathers with it...these I clean gently with Saline, then liberaly cover in Neosporin to keep them moist, maybe I lightly Bandage, and they scab up maybe a great deal, and I just re-apply Neosporin off and on, and after a while it is all new, pink Skin, and once that is done I leave off and do not do anything more.

After some time, some weeks maybe then, new Feathers sprout and everything grows back in.


That was mostly what I was thinking about...and such debriding as maybe could be done, I never have done, but instead I just let their Body deal with it, and so far, it always does, splendidly.

Never seen anything go sour or be infected...same with punctures, bullet holes, teeth holes, Naill holes and so on, those, once sluiced out and a little Nitrofurizone, with a dab of Neosporin, always healed up wonderfully with no complications.

Some were infected when I got them of course, but this always saw them clear up.


Well, with some systemic antibiotics also...of course, usually.





> In general, using ointments where there are feathers or where the ointment
> will get on the feathers, is a Big No-No, as it will damage the feathers, Phil.


I never saw anything to show that.

Many of these had no Feathers remaining on the injured areas of their Bodys, or, such few tiny Feathers on the periphery of the injurys,and a few maybe in the field, or were remaining in tattered vestiges merely.


We were not 'looking' at the same order of mental image...

But even in occasions of where I am dealing with some several punctures, with undisturbed, intact Feathers present, I never noticed the Neosporin to have done any undesirable things to their Feathers.


It is not as if I am treating and releasing with no time in between, for it to matter anyway, even if it did wick up into their Feathers in a few small areas.


So, this concern I do not understand...


And I doubt thair preening, if they did any at all in these areas, would transfer any troubling amounts of the Neosporin.

You can eat a Jar of Vasolene a day, and all it will do is 'promote regularity'.


So, in preening an area where the Featheres may have a little Neosporin in them, the small smounts they might injest of the Neosporin in preening, along with it's Antibiotics...is this really a problem?

If so, how so?


I do not understand what scenario you have in mind where it would matter if some Neosporin wicked 'up' into the Feathers in a few small localized places.




> Silvadene will not do this nor will the cremes.



Silvadene counds like a good one to have.

I will see about getting some for the Medicine Chest.

I have also been meaning to get some Nitrofurizone Ointment ( made for Horses ) which is reputed to be very good for the sometimes resistant topical infection or resistant infected injury, so I will get some of that too sometime soon.


The utterly splendid Nitrofurizone topical powder I have I bought in the early 1980s and I do not have much left. It is still viable and works very well to stop any infection I ever tried it on from punctures. 


Sadly, the powder appears to be impossible to get anymore.




> I do think there needs to be
> discernment as in a bird that has a long haul ahead of it and not releasable
> for some time to come also needing to have an area remain moist, would
> be a candidate for using an ointment as opposed to a creme. There are other
> more specific occasions for making that choice as well.




Makes sense, yes...


What scenario would discerningly recommend a 'creme'?




> fp



Best wishes,


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Phil,
> All ointments have oil bases to them. Aside from the obvious in that the ointments will destroy the insulation abilities, they can also clog pores causing potential problems for new feathers coming in.
> Neosporin makes Neosporin antibiotic cream which is safe to use because it's water soluble.
> If you Google Silverdene, put the search in for Silver Sulphadiazine. Another name for it is Therazine.




Hi pigeonperson,



I have never seen anything like what you describe, or, if I did, it was so subtle as to escape notice.


Neosporin can cause Follicle Mites to smother, so if one has a Bird who shows some bare places, one can in effect cure the Mite problem in those pores, and then Feathers which were not there, will grow in.

I have seen that, which is of course a nice thing.


I have never seen anything which would qualify as an insulating compromise.

A full Feathered Bird who has some punctures, the tiny amount of Neosporin which might wick up, would hardly make any difference as for their global insulating feature being compromised, at least in my own envisioning of it.


So, I am not sure what you have in mind there with this.


Large areas of the Bird's Body where the skin and flesh are like 'Hamburger' from a Dog chewing them or other misadventure, there are no Feathers present anyway, or hardly any, and usually what Skin is present will all die anyway to be replaced by all new Skin. So Neosporin getting into 'pores' is not an issue...and the growing back of the Feathers will not occur untill the new Skin is already grown back anyway, at which time one is no longer applying the Neosporin, so it is not an issue there.


What scenario specifically did you have in mind?


I am not trying to be difficult...I am just limited in the scenarios I am able to invision from my own experience, to find any in which Neosporin would have been better set aside for it's having some sort of liability, to favor a 'creme' which would not have any liability.



Thanks!


Phil
l v


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2007)

Hi Phil,

You're not being difficult. This is not an easy post because wound care is so difficult and if it gets a bit confusing, forgive me. 

I'm sure you've read about oil spills and the huge efforts undertaken afterwards to get the affected birds out and wash the oil from their feathers. That's oil and a petroleum based antibiotic ointment is the same kind of stuff so I don't believe in using it at all. 

The two exceptions are if the wound is on the legs and even there, it should be covered with a dressing to prevent it from spreading to the feathers. Also, if the infection is an eyelid or the eye itself, of course use an opthalmic antibiotic ointment. There's no choice there but if there is a skin infection in or near the ear, an ointment could clog the ear with debris and so the cure would be worse than the illness. 

As you know, I've been looking for an alternative to an antibiotic ointment for a wet dressing. I think that based on the advice I've received, Silverdene looks like a good alternative. and I've been using it on this particular bird. So far, so good. 

If you say there is a pinpoint of a wound on the body and put a very little bit of ointment on, enough to cover but not enough to spread out, then that's probably ok but what happens if the wound is oozing? It will spread the ointment to a larger area on the feathers and that's not ok. Also, what happens to the ointment you put on and have to replace it everyday? It's spreading out to the feathers. It may not affect a lot of feathers but the ones it does touch are not going to have insulation abilities.

If you have a bare area on the body because of a wound, of course you're going to disinfect it first but if you feel it needs an antibiotic covering, why not use Neosporin antibiotic cream twice a day or use Nolvasan liquid? If the wound is deep, you would probably use a systemic antibiotic and that should also help stave off infection. Most superficial wounds are better off healing dry anyway. I recently had a bird that had been hit by a car. The tail feathers were completely off and the feathers on his back were also scraped off. He wasn't bloody but the area was red from irritation. I would never think of using an ointment on his back but simply used Nolvasan disinfectant liquid twice a day and everything grew back very nicely and he's now back out there.

Let's say a bird has been scalped. It's going to take weeks for the skin to re-cover. Reti wrote that she used Neosporin ointment in that situation. It's not necessary because all that has to be done assuming that there is no infection there, is to disinfect the area with Nolvasan liquid twice a day. That area doesn't infect that easily. The alternative is to use a cream.

For mites or feather lice, why not use a dusting powder like Sevin? Also, you can use Ivermectin or Scatt. The liquid Ivermectin can be used as a wormer or a drop can be put on the back of the neck, directly on the skin to help kill mites and lice. Scatt is applied topically. Yes, you are smothering the bugs with ointment but you're also clogging the pores so I wouldn't kill them that way and you know that you're not getting all of them. Besides, who is to say feather mites are causing an area to become bare? If the mite infestation is that bad, you would probably see a black scab over the area rather than a bare spot. I often see bare spots around the face and scalp of young birds and it's usually caused by their roosting in small areas where their facial and head feathers get rubbed off by the overhang. 

I love Nolvasan liquid. It kills over 60 viruses and bacteria types and doesn't hinder cell growth like Betadyne. Most of the time, since a superficial wound should heal dry, Nolvasan twice a day should be enough to protect the skin. Deep wounds need either suturing or wet dressings plus a systemic antibiotic but using an antibiotic ointment can cause trouble. Puncture wounds cannot be sutured because the bacteria won't be able to escape so those have to heal on their own and again, using an ointment can cause trouble.

I don't know if this helped or hurt because this is not an easy topic.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil,

Of the many Avian Vets that I work w/in this area, I'm just saying that ointments in general are considered a No-No. Again, there are specific 
times and situations that an ointment has been used/recommended, but
in general, Silvadene seems to be the preferred product. Though not a debrider, it does attract water to it and aids in accelerating the healing process. I mentioned Povodine Ointment as I've had it used in a very similar situation to Fred's.

fp


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2007)

fp,
You may be right about it's having no debriding qualities. I don't know where I got that from.
Take a look at this quote from this site:

http://tinyurl.com/38cro7

Silver sulfadiazine has broad anti-
microbial activity. It is bactericidal
for many gram-negative and gram-
positive bacteria as well as being
*effective against yeast*


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Fred, by grannies, we're agreeing a lot here lately.  I love Novalsan and use it a great deal. I have a spray bottle of it on my counter and even use it to spray the counter-top when I have a sick pigeon that I've worked with. 

We are working with a pigeon right now that has something but not sure what and I am very careful in handling it and all its equipment - cage, bowls, syringes, etc. I use Novalsan on everything he has touched after I have already washed it thoroughly. 

I have used it on wounds but for minor things usually go with diluted Betadine.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2007)

Maggie,
You're using it for among other things, the same way vets use it, to disinfect their operating areas.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> You're not being difficult. This is not an easy post because wound care is so difficult and if it gets a bit confusing, forgive me.




I think it is excellent for us to review and discuss these things, so I am enjoying this, and I appreciae your interest to do so.




> I'm sure you've read about oil spills and the huge efforts undertaken afterwards to get the affected birds out and wash the oil from their feathers. That's oil and a petroleum based antibiotic ointment is the same kind of stuff so I don't believe in using it at all.
> 
> 
> > Actually, that would be an entirely different kind of 'petroleum' product.
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...

I do not remember any 'ooozers' far as Puncture wounds go, so long as they got a dab of Nitrofurizone in them, and, whether sutured or not, they have healed up fine and soon...but whatever the injury, if the Skin has been insulted or violated, I like to keep it all moist, and Neosporin does this nicely.


I do not know of any topical injurys or insults which should be left "dry"...



But, I have not dealt with Burns on Birds, in case they are of that sort...and I do not know if they are, maybe they are not.


I have had some decent burns on myself a few times, some where the skin was ash and the meat under was cooked a little, and I never had any troubles with them healing nicely with nothing but Neosporin on them, and I never did any of that 'scrubbing' BS all the Doctors and Hospitals insist to do, so I dunno...


I have had some nasty chemical burns similarly, scalds also...they heal a little slow maybe compared to cuts or punctures, but they healed fine on me, so I would expect they would do the same on a Bird, if given the same regimen.


I never had any 'Nolvasan'...and I am not familiar with it.




> Most superficial wounds are better off healing dry anyway.




Maybe, but not if they are in an area which flexes and would then crack and bleed...better of they are kept moist and supple if any flexing is likely to be going on with them...




> I recently had a bird that had been hit by a car. The tail feathers were completely off and the feathers on his back were also scraped off. He wasn't bloody but the area was red from irritation. I would never think of using an ointment on his back but simply used Nolvasan disinfectant liquid twice a day and everything grew back very nicely and he's now back out there.



Yeahh...unless it is itchy-dry, and the Bird would appreciate something to soothe that...then yea, I agree, it can be left be, left 'dry' and that is fine...or even best.





> Let's say a bird has been scalped. It's going to take weeks for the skin to re-cover. Reti wrote that she used Neosporin ointment in that situation. It's not necessary because all that has to be done assuming that there is no infection there, is to disinfect the area with Nolvasan liquid twice a day. That area doesn't infect that easily. The alternative is to use a cream.


Yes, my little 18 day old or so 'Crow Baby' had been pecked horriby by Crows, and all the skin and flesh on the upper area of his Head died and had to re-grow from his ears up.


From the start, I just kept it all wet with Neosporin ( I never did any saline or Peroxide on it prior ) and as the whole of it died off and shrank you could see his Skull here and there through the fissures...and I never touched it other than to keep it wet with Neosporin.


Slowly, it all grew back form the sides 'up'...and when it finally filled in at the top, the Bottle Cap sized, cracked, shrunken, curled scab, fell off...and his Head was pink and new and perfect as could be. I ceased applying the Neosporin at that time.


However many weeks later, new Feathers started sprouting, and they grew in perfectly in every way...I was so proud of him..!




> For mites or feather lice, why not use a dusting powder like Sevin?


I only meant it as an aside...that it will soffocate follicle Mites...


I do not know what effect if any it would have on other kinds, especially if they were not localized. But in theory, it would suffocate any sort of Mite, if you got enough on the little rascal.





> Also, you can use Ivermectin or Scatt. The liquid Ivermectin can be used as a wormer or a drop can be put on the back of the neck, directly on the skin to help kill mites and lice. Scatt is applied topically. Yes, you are smothering the bugs with ointment but you're also clogging the pores so I wouldn't kill them that way and you know that you're not getting all of them.




Yes...


I had simply noticed that Birds having some bare patch, which stayed bare, and for no reason I could think of...if I applied Noeporin on that area, and kept it so for a few days, soon their Feathers would grow back...but I do not know if they in fact had any follicle Mites or not, and when I asked my Cet about it, he seemed to think it was a fine pragmatic in case there had been any.



> Besides, who is to say feather mites are causing an area to become bare? If the mite infestation is that bad, you would probably see a black scab over the area rather than a bare spot.


True, might not have been.

I do not recall seeing any scabs, and isurmising 'Feather Follicle Mites' only as a conjecture, even though technically, if they were present, any thin petroleum Ointment would suffocate them, so long as it was able to wick into the Pore.





> I often see bare spots around the face and scalp of young birds and it's usually caused by their roosting in small areas where their facial and head feathers get rubbed off by the overhang.



Yes...or from feeding in hand feeding, if certain areas get rubbed every time.


Canker can make for some thinly Featheres or loss of Feathers too, on the high Neck or Jaw areas, as you know...and we must always remember that and not assume it is benign when it might be signalling an underlieing disease problem.





> I love Nolvasan liquid. It kills over 60 viruses and bacteria types and doesn't hinder cell growth like Betadyne. Most of the time, since a superficial wound should heal dry, Nolvasan twice a day should be enough to protect the skin. Deep wounds need either suturing or wet dressings plus a systemic antibiotic but using an antibiotic ointment can cause trouble. Puncture wounds cannot be sutured because the bacteria won't be able to escape so those have to heal on their own and again, using an ointment can cause trouble.



I will do some 'googles' on it, and likely send off and get some.

I was not familiar with it till hearing about it now.

You can suture ( well, you meaning your Vet, or you, or whoever is good at it) punctures with no worries as long as they are sluiced out well first, and, a dab of Nitrofurizone is sort of sprinkled in to them...but I almost never have had these injurys sutured, they seem to heal fine when just kept moist and so on. Jagged tears I have tended to get Sutured.


Had a little young adult Dove brought to me awhile back...small...had an aweful lot of bad large Punctures and small jagged tears. So, I got the tears and rips Sutured up, 20 odd,close to 30 sutures worth, and the punctures we just left be, and I slathed plenty of Neosporin on those, and had him on Antibiotics also just for prudence sake...turned out splendidly. He is a rip roaring little free fly fellow in here, who takes no Bull from anyone. even standing up to the larger Pigeons over Seed Bowl politics, he does not win, but by golly he LUNGES at them and sometimes they rear up and take a few steps back, not sure what to do!





I have had some decent punctures on me a few times, some pretty good Dog Bites years ago, and they tended to fester because I did not know enough then to get a thin irrigation tube into them and sluice them out and so on, but just Nitrofurizone worked well, shoving a little in with a Match Stick or other. They healed just fine.



> I don't know if this helped or hurt because this is not an easy topic.



Oh, I think it is great...a good dialogue.


Best wishes!

Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's very interesting indeed, Fred, that Silvadene is effective against yeast,
I wonder if this is also true of Colloidal Silver in terms of its' anti-microbial
spectrum? 

I used to use Nolvasan for clean up all the time until Pox Virus passed through
the Overpass flock and Speer told me that it didn't kill it. That's when he told 
me that a half a cup of bleach to a gallon of water would kill Pox Virus, and
probably most anything else that you'd run into doing rehab. It's a pretty 
mild bleach smell somewhat like Oxine AH but tons cheaper. I really missed
cleaning w/bleach so it was no prob for me to switch to the water/bleach
solution for cleaning.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, "amongst" my arsenal of stuff, I also keep a spray bottle of bleach on hand. It is probably overkill but with this particular bird I wash all his stuff with hot, soapy water, rinse, spray with Novalsan, then rinse and spray with the bleach and rinse really well. 

I particularly like the Novalsan because it doesn't bother my sinuses like bleach so for regular clean up, I use the Novalsan.

All the birds we care for have dedicated food/water bowls, syringes, etc. I don't like to run the chance of any contamination by mixing their bowls up. Like I say, probably overkill.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> fp, "amongst" my arsenal of stuff, I also keep a spray bottle of bleach on hand. It is probably overkill but with this particular bird I wash all his stuff with hot, soapy water, rinse, spray with Novalsan, then rinse and spray with the bleach and rinse really well.
> 
> I particularly like the Novalsan because it doesn't bother my sinuses like bleach so for regular clean up, I use the Novalsan.
> 
> All the birds we care for have dedicated food/water bowls, syringes, etc. I don't like to run the chance of any contamination by mixing their bowls up. Like I say, probably overkill.



Maggie, I wouldn't ever use bleach straight, but this dilution of water and bleach is so mild odor wise and does kill pox as opposed to Nolvasan, just a heads up on this. Sometimes we don't know that a bird has ever been exposed to the Pox Virus, and it could be shedding unbeknownst to us. Nolvasan won't address the shedding of Pox Virus nor a bird(s) who is outright sick w/the virus. Half a cup of bleach to a cup of water will kill clear utensils
and the environment.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, the bleach spray I use is diluted. If I don't mix it up myself, we sometimes buy the Wal-mart brand "Great Value" cleaner with bleach in it and you can sure smell the bleach in it. With either one, both my throat and sinuses are affected.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sorry to hear that, Maggie. Anyway, just letting it be known that Nolvasan
doesn't kill the pox virus on contact, that's all. I don't know what the concentration on the pre-made product is that you're referring to and so 
can't really speak to that.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> fp, "amongst" my arsenal of stuff, I also keep a spray bottle of bleach on hand. It is probably overkill but with this particular bird I wash all his stuff with hot, soapy water, rinse, spray with Novalsan, then rinse and spray with the bleach and rinse really well.
> 
> I particularly like the Novalsan because it doesn't bother my sinuses like bleach so for regular clean up, I use the Novalsan.
> 
> All the birds we care for have dedicated food/water bowls, syringes, etc. I don't like to run the chance of any contamination by mixing their bowls up. Like I say, probably overkill.




Hi Maggie, 


Good idea to have 'dedicated' accoutremon for each Bird...


Much simpler than consequences of illness being spread.


So, 'overkill' is mere prudence in these situations.


If one can not do that, then a simple 5 Gallon lidded Plastic Bucket, with Bleach-Water in it, for overnight soaking or rotated soaks, of all ( opre washed already ) accoutremon, is a decent means as well.


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> 
> Good idea to have 'dedicated' accoutremon for each Bird...
> ...




Yup, if you know what the concentration is....

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, 


I think for over-night soaks, the concentration is pretty forgiving...

If memory serve, 1 Bleach, 9 water ( ie: 10 pecent solution ) is fine.


There is an ideal concentration, for shorter soaking times, but I forget what it is...


15 percent?? Maybe?



Anyone know?


Phil
l v


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