# New hatchling ... I need to feed it



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Ok, I can hand feed a bazillion parrots, but how the heck do you hand feed a freshly hatched pigeon? Any suggestions? The balloon and syringe method is not for me or my Casanova


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Zoo Keeper, 

Can you get an eyedropper with a longer, narrower tip to it?


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Brad,

I think I can do that. The problem here is the first hatchling hatched two days ago and this one hatched today. The first one is already twice the size the the parents tossed this one aside. I dont want it to die. It has been hatched for about 6 hours. I would imagine it needs to eat soon.  


do I just put the dropper in it mouth and it will swallow?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Zoo Keeper, 

Numbernine has replied to you as well about using tubes but I can't see how this would work for a newly hatched chick but this person sounds like they have experience with hand feeding. 

If you decide to use the eyedropper, I would gently hold the head with your fingers and tilt the head back and go very slowly, drops at a time obviously. I was just making a suggestion of the eyedropper because I can't think of anything else so small to use.

Tube feeding seems pretty dangerous to me with such a small chick


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I am not comfortable with tube feeding for the reason that I dont want to puncture anything. I have tube fed bigger pigeons, but not a new hatchling.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Why not use a thin mixture of Kaytee Exact baby bird formula? Many people on the forum have used it sucessfully and can tender detailed advice about its usage.

You'll need to gently open the baby's beak to feed it, one of the differences between parrots and pigeons is that pigeons don't gape.

I'm biased towards syringe feeding (3cc size for a new chick). The baby swallows on its own, you're not shoving anything into the crop.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I have the bird formula, but I dont know if I just drop it in its mouth. I dont want to drown the chick


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I am very nervous about this


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tanya, 

Yes, I would worry as well in any case, just because they are so tiny and fragile at that age. Hopefully someone who has extensive experience with newborn chicks will come on soon and advise you if an eye dropper can be used safely and perhaps the best techique to do so. 

I take it you've got no birds to foster this one at the moment?


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

You shouldn't be so nervous, it's a lot like feeding a parrot.

I've raised pigeons from 1 day old before, just be gentle and don't doubt yourself.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Lots of good advice here. I am going to have to think.

No Brad, this is the first time I have not had a pigeon to foster. During breeding season, I was flip flopping babies every where. This is the first time. for this one. Hmmmmm. I was thinking of trying the one pair of homers that is on wood eggs. I dont think it has been long enough though for them to have pigeon milk and I dont want them to toss it over board because their nest is 6 feet high.

I dont have any adequate tubes that I would feed secure sticking down this little ones throat as well. 



I think I have a big problem.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tanya, 

I have one other suggestion to offer that blends tubes with eyedroppers. Mary did this with my young pigeons but they were older and much bigger but it was a good idea. She cut up an old computer mouse cord and stuck this on the end of a syringe. However, this size tube still seems a bit too thick for a newborn chick. I'm looking at my laptop mouse cord at the moment and it's thinner and you could maybe try this at the end of an eye dropper. You could probably buy a laptop mouse for about $30 and just take a small piece of the tubing and remove the wires inside. You could perhaps use a section of the tubing that is about an inch long or so, just long enough to go past the windpipe and down the throat. This tube of rubber tubing is much softer and more flexible as well.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

ok. I will go snoop around at the store or and see what I can come up with. I am hoping just to get some food in this baby and hopefully the parents will resume care in a day or two.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Zookeeper,



It is not clear why you are wishing to feed them. Did something happen to their parents?

Anyway, if you must feed them, consider to get some LaFabers, some K-T, some Roudybush 'Squab' powder, or whatever other kind of powdered stuff you might think are worth useing...

And intend to add to them, a small amount of Misu, some decent Vitamines such as 'Nekton-T' and some pro-biotics...maybe some powdered Greens such as Chlorella and a small amount of powdered Sea Weed...( any health food store) .

You could consider to try this - 

Go to the Grocery Store and buy some regular Baby Nipples.

Take one, and with scizzors, cut off the flange or collar.

You will be useing the hollow side of it to put formula or Water in.

A.S.A.P., get some smaller sized Nipples, since these little new-hatched Pigeons have small Beaks for now. Get the kind they use for Kittens or Puppies. Get them from any local Vet or pet store.

Any formula you feed them should be fairly thin, since they are in essense, drinking it more than eating it. Thin like an average home made 'Gravy'.

Little meals, and often...

The formula must be fed to them at around "wrist" temperature, ALLWAYS.

Make your formula in a cup which is sitting in a pan on of Medium-Hot Water. Keep it sitting in the pan of hot Water so it does not cool off while you refill the Nipple.

Test the formula by putting your finger into it and stirring. It should feel like 'no temperature'. Test a deb of it on your wrist.


For your purposes right now, you could make some formula out of Graham Cracker and Corn Meal and a little Olive Oil dab, and be allright since this as a source of food untill tomorrow. Many people-baby-cereals now contain NO 'protean', but if you like, see if you can find some which do and add those.
Or add some Malto Meal or roman Meal or siilar ones that are fine grained.

Offer Water-electrolytes between meals.


You could go to the Health Food Store and get powdered "Pea" powder, or Hemp Seed Powder and use that as an ingredient also, which with the added Vitamine-Mineral, pro-biotic and other ingredients I outlined, you will be equal to or likely better then the the manufactured formulas.

Moisten your finger tips in warm Water...

Approach the little Bird from straight on from the front, at about their eye level.

Gently massage their Beak while saying 'OooOOOooo! - OooooOOooo!' in a medium, slow, lowish voice. Kinda like if you were saying 'MmmmMMMmm!' to convey how something tastes good, but where the 'MmmmMMmmm' would have your mouth closed, the 'OooooOOOooo!' is done with one's mouth, one's lips, made into a little "o"...

Do this and gently, from the front, with moist warm finger tips, massage it's little Beak.


If the Bird "nuzzles" - and it will - and or responds with signs of accepting your invitation to feed them...gently guide their Beak into the hollow BACKSIDE of the Nipple, into which you have put, say, for the first experiment, merely some TEPID Water into which you have dissolved a little pinch of Salt and a little pinch of Sugar into a Juice-Glass sized glass of TEPID Water, to fill the little hollow back of the Nipple with.

Hols the Nipple about Crop level...and tilt it toward them.

Generally, fill it only about 7/8ths full.

The Baby will respond by 'nuzzleing' in it's own for now weak and tentative wobbley way, and should happily eat form the nipple's hollow back.

Try and support the Bird from it's shoulders with your free hand, and try not to press against it's Crop.

Hold the Nipple at about their Crop level and tilted toward them. When feeding them formula, let the Bird guide you as for how they wish to pull their head 'in' for swallowing, and how they may stretch their neck 'out' for gobbleing or drinking. There is a cadence they will prefer and it is subtle, so you have to let them guide you in how it works.

If you can get the Bird to be "nuzzleing" in this way, you can feed them IN the hollow back side of the Nipple, with various sorts of thin, 'Gravy' thin formula recipies.

Later, in a couple weeks, you may then, also, gently guide their Beak into a small container of whole small Seeds, in this case, something like a 'Shot Glass' or the bottom of a small size to-go Cup you have cut out from the whole to-go cup.

Gently, two weeks from now mind you! and only for SOME of their diet then, you can do this by keeping your finger tips ON their little Beak, or on the sides of their beak at it's root, and guide their 'nuzzleing' Beak into the little cup or glass which you have filled with PLAIN, WHOLE, SMALL, SEEDS...

The Baby or young Pigeons and Doves I have done this with so far, made 'gobbleing' - 'feeding' motions with their Beaks, and in effect, by opening and closeing their Beaks, ate very well the little whole Seeds in the small glass or cup bottom, into which I had guided their Beak...and on whose little Beaks I keep my finger tips gently resting untill they DO do this with out me doing so.

For the first few times of this, when the time comes, one keeps one's finger tips ON their little Beak.

One also ALLWAYS from the first, ANY TIME ONE IS TO OFFER FOOD OR WATER, one makes the "OoooooOOOOoooo!" sounds.

The moist finger tip Beak massage need only be done the first time. THAT IS THE INITIAL INVITATION, that is the 'Curtain Raiser'.


If all of this is not done, and done in an easy sensitive sequence for them, we get all the problems that almost everyone writes in with every day along with their bad solutions.

All these damned force feeds and lacerated crop problems and infections and admonishions of how the Bird needs 'Tough Love' because no 'Love' deference or patience has been shown them in any real terns THEY understand or will do well with.

This works just as well for Baby or young Doves as it does for Baby or young Pigeons, who very soon know what you are 'talking' about when you make the sounds for them. Who in fact after the FIRST time one does this and does it right, they know what you are 'saying'.

They will opf course 'peep' in asking you to feed them.

Keep them warm of course!


Good luck!  

Till next...

Have fun! 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 


Tanya is a long time member here and well versed on pigeons for the most part. She knows about dietary needs and options for feeding as well as what to do down the road when they are older. 

She's only needed to do this for now because of lack of foster parents available. She said she will place this one back with it's parents with it's a bit older and past the hump of the critical period.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Phil,

The reason I have this little one is because the nest mate hatched two days ago. Today this one hatched. Of course it is half the size because its nest mate is two days older.  The parents tossed this second hatching aside. I have tried to figure out what in the world to do so it would not starve. Well since I made the original post, I decided to take the large (2 day old chick out and leave the smaller one with the parents). It would appear they have fed it some. I am watching very closely as it is now dark and I dont want them tossing it out in the dark. I plan to swap the babies back again later tonight so the bigger one can eat again. (0f course that is if I see they are feeding the smaller one enough) Now if I see they are not then I will go to back to plan "A" which was to try and feed it. It appears that if both babies are in the nest mom sees the smaller one as one that needs to be tossed aside.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Zookeeper,


Excuse me please, somehow I thought you were asking about how to feed them.

If I refer to your initial post, it reads as follows - 

New hatchling ... I need to feed it 

"Ok, I can hand feed a bazillion parrots, but how the heck do you hand feed a freshly hatched pigeon? Any suggestions? The balloon and syringe method is not for me or my Casanova "

Can you understand how I may have been confused?  


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Tanya and all .. I will again suggest the gavage/crop needles .. I could not possibly make it through baby bird season without these .. they are easy to use, safe, easy to sterilize, and will last just about forever .. definitely worth an approx $15.00 investment in my book .. I use the #14 size curved ones for pigeons and doves .. the smaller sizes (meaning larger numbered size .. like #16 or #18) won't readily pass anything as thick as baby bird formula .. truly, give one of these a try ..

http://www.petiatric.com/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=gavage+needle&Page=1

They screw onto Luer Lock syringes .. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=5760&N=2003+113184

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi NumberNine,


Why insist to force feed a Bird who is willing to be fed, or to eat on it's own, if the matter is introduced in terms they understand?

I am glad you are a skilled 'tube-feeder', and I am glad that i am also, and I am glad that so are several of the members here.

Other people who write in, are not. Many many Birds DO die or die of complications resultant to bad tube feedings.

The more "Tube Feedings' are exclusively mentioned, the more those new to it will louse it up at the Bird's expense for want of another method that is maybe easier for them and easier for the Bird to abide.

A healthy young Bird who would be willing and happy to be fed in something like their natural way, is not the same as a recalsitrant, ill or inured Adult who out of their own grief or trauma, is NOT eating on their own and must,eventually, be force fed to save it's life.

Do you then reject explicitly as well as implicitly, my offering an alternative method?

...if so, please say so explicitly?

I have every fine regard for your knowledge and expertise, I welcomed you here and I think you have many great things to offer. I even sent off, as I told you, for a sack of the 'Breeding Mash'...and I was surprised that you of all people would conspicuoudly ignore my attempts to introduce a safe, ease method for not only feeding Baby or young Columbiformes, but also, for putting them at ease in terms they do well with and appreciate.

If you reject it so adamently, please say so explicitly?


I am not trying to tell you what-to-do, I an not suggesting that YOU ever hurt a Crop with 'tubes'...but I have been offering something I felt was of potential value if anyone was interested to read it and to try it as an additional method one might consider for those occasions where it might be appropriate.

Why it has gotten the big stiff almost every time, I do not know...I am totally baffled...

What do you think Zookeeper? Will you tell me?

What do you think 'Brad'? will you tell me?

What do you think NumberNine, what is your opinion on how come it gets the big stiff, like it did this time, when someone explicitly asked, "HOW DO I FEED THEM?????"...and I was ( I thought, ) kind enough to tell them with enough germain detail for them to do it, if they wanted TO do it, anyway?

And I am feeling very discouraged as far as this site and the closed minded mentality of many on it.

Zookeeper writes in with "How DO I feed them???"

I write a very detailed primer for them...

Brad jumps in on how Zookeeper is 'experienced' and does not need my advise.

Zookeeper says they never asked "How do I feed them???"

And makes no acknowledgement of the careful detailed primer I posted for them.

Okay...

Okay...

What gives?

What the heck is going on here, anyway????


This is not very encourageing...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil & Numbernine....

Sorry, I should have given you more details or perhaps Tanya should have herself. The thing is that this is an internet forum and not in real time. Even with saying that, it still lacks the quickness in it's ability to convey a lot of information in a short period of time. I happen to be aware of Tanya's abilities and knowledge so it was easier for me to address her concerns quicker.

Zoo Keeper (Tanya) is a very capable pigeon breeder in her racing pigeon community. I think she was just very concerned having never had to feed a newborn chick from just a few hours old. Her experience and history with pigeons is vast however, just this one aspect must have been something she was unfamiliar with to a point. She knows about the baby bird formulas and how to mix the proper consistancies, various feeding options etc. She was however nervous about feeding such a small one from with tubes for fear of injuring it. 

We have to remember that we all have different experiences of learning what to use and how to use it. That said, no-one's particular methods or ways are any better than someone elses. We all share our knowledge and experiences here and hopefully the person in need will pick up on something. It's not a competition of who's methods are best or proven by themselves. It's a matter of what the person is comfortable with, and with the resources they have at hand. SO, we have to also remember to be flexible and willing to improvise and work with someone in order to help them effectively.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Phil,

OK this really is not all that confusing. Yes I need to feed a baby. The parents have tossed it aside because it is two days behind the nest mate and is smaller. The nest mate hatched two days ago and this one hatched today.

Now in the mist of trying to figure out how to feed it, I decided to remove the bigger chick and just leave the smaller chick for a while to see if the parents will feed the smaller chick or toss it out again.

I basically have a mess going here. Does this make sense now?


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Phil & Numbernine....
> 
> Sorry, I should have given you more details or perhaps Tanya should have herself. The thing is that this is an internet forum and not in real time. Even with saying that, it still lacks the quickness in it's ability to convey a lot of information in a short period of time. I happen to be aware of Tanya's abilities and knowledge so it was easier for me to address her concerns quicker.
> 
> ...


Thank you Brad.

You said it perfect. I am just nervous about such a small chick. I am very worried that it wont get food since the parents are tossing it out, but at the same time I dont want to tube feed it because it is so small. I am also worried about drowning it as I have never hand feed pigeons this small. 

I hand feed parrots every day of my life, this is just something a bit new.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

pdpbison said:


> Hi NumberNine,
> 
> 
> Why insist to force feed a Bird who is willing to be fed, or to eat on it's own, if the matter is introduced in terms they understand?
> ...


Phil,

I am very grateful for the info you posted as well as what everyone else has posted. It has given me much to ponder and I will probably take all the info and devise a feeding program that will work best for the casanova.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Folks, I think we are all getting a bit touchy in this thread .. myself included cuz I'm tired like others here. There are a good number of safe ways to feed baby birds .. most of the people coming here to Pigeon-Talk have =one= bird to worry about, and we should all do our very best to help those folks. Those others of us who regularly have lots of birds are a different story .. yes, we should be tolerant of one another and learn from one another .. but it seems once we hit "rehabber/rescuer" status, we get a serious case of rectal, cranial inversion .. it's worse than a prolapse and far more difficult to correct .. OK .. I'm joking here a bit, but not too much.

I just measured my #14 gavage needle .. guess how long it is ?? 3 inches .. I've also used a cut down mammal feeding tube, aquarium tube, and human oxygen tube .. all can work .. it's just a matter of what you have when it's needed. In the end result, I'll stand by the stainless steel gavage tubes/needles .. sorry, can't beat 'em in my opinion and in my experience.

And NumberNine .. in 1996 I was still rescuing dogs and cats .. didn't get into birds until late 1997 .. so I guess you got some years on me. I now handle about 800 birds a year .. pigeons, ducks, geese, starlings, sparrows, and assorted domestics and exotics .. throw in a few rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, and such .. and there I am. I would truly welcome a day when I had only four to worry about .. a typical day here is a bird population of at least 50-75 and of those at least a dozen that are critical care cases and/or hand feeding babies. Baby season is now pretty well over, but during that time of year tis not unusual for me to have two dozen sparrows, two dozen starlings, and umpteen dozen ducklings to care for.

Now .. we've all had our little snit, so let's get over it/them and on with things. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

NumberNine said:


> P.S. I don't think the neighbours would like it if I kept 50-75 birds in my condo apt...


How right you are! My neighbors aren't particularly thrilled with all the critters here either, but at least I have a huge backyard and a finished garage for the "hospital".

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tanya, 

Did you figure something out how to feed the baby? I hope things are going ok. Let us know when you can.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Hi Brad and everyone who offered advise. 

Things are going well with the Casanova. Yesterday the baby was tossed aside as many know. The parents had no desire to feed it. What I ended up doing was removing the larger (2 day hatching) and leaving the fresh hatch under Mom. Mom did not seem to realize that I had removed the one and placed the new hatch under her. The 2 day hatch had a very full crop and I played swap the baby until midnight then removed the 2 day old hatching until this morning and placed it in my brooder. This morning I replaced it and left the new hatchling. I am happy to report that mother Casanova has feed them both all day.  I am still watching them to make sure the larger one does not get all the food. At this point they both have very full crops and Mom has no longer been tossing the smaller one aside.

It seems to have all worked out and I did not have to take invasive measure to feed the baby.

I greatly appreciate all the words of advise from everyone who helped.

I have not visited this site for over a month and everyone just jumped in and helped me like I had not been away. This forum is awesome !!!!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tanya, 


Glad to hear your method of switching/rotating the Hatchlings, has inspired their parents to feed them.

This of course, is the best outcome for the Babys...getting their Pigeon 'milk' and natural enzymes and antibodies and so on...


Excellent!

Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Tanya, 

I'm also glad to hear that things are working out by swapping the babies in the nest. Casanova is in good hands over there


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