# Looking for some good white racing pigeons



## ward13v (Jul 11, 2011)

I am looking for some good white pedigreed pigeons


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

have you tried Dennis Kuhn?


----------



## ward13v (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't know him does he have a website


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

http://www.whiteracers.20m.com/


----------



## ward13v (Jul 11, 2011)

On thanks I will check him out


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ward13v said:


> I am looking for some good white pedigreed pigeons



Good luck. I am sure there must be a few Champions out there in the world that are white in feather, but the vast majority are going to be of another color. Hard enough to breed a race winner of any color, let alone trying to breed a race winner of any particular color. If I were to someday want to breed birds of a specific color, I would think it would be easier with breeders that first of all produce winners, and attempt to breed the color into that particular line. If the color happened to be white, then I would retain only race winners which had a white flight, or were splashes with white. Then when I got my hands onto a real Champion white racer, preferably a cock, I would then simply breed him to some splash hens and over some number of generations I would have an actual line of white champions. If along the way a race winning white hen becomes available, you will be well on your way.

Start with plain ordinary white racers, and ten generations from now, chances are, you will have a loft full of ordinary white racers, IMHO. So it depends on where you place your priority ? Producing race winning birds of any color, or birds of a specific color. Much easier to develop a line of blue bars or blue checks then white.


----------



## ward13v (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks for the help this will be my first year racing young birds and was wanting some competitive white pigeons to go along with my blue bars ,silvers and grizzles


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

try Ted Amsler


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Then when I got my hands onto a real Champion white racer, preferably a cock, I would then simply breed him to some splash hens and over some number of generations I would have an actual line of white champions.


Yes you get more young out of a white cock, but it is easier to get more whites/grizzles out of hens since they only carry that one gene unlike the cocks.


----------



## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

First To Hatch said:


> Yes you get more young out of a white cock, but it is easier to get more whites/grizzles out of hens since they only carry that one gene unlike the cocks.


Actually the grizzle gene is not sex-linked (not on the sex chromosome) so works the same way in both hens and cocks. It's a dominant gene so if a bird is grizzle it will show it (a bird cannot 'carry' the grizzle gene or have it hidden). Of course if the bird is a double factor grizzle instead of a single factor grizzle it will be a lot lighter and whiter. The base color of the bird (blue/black, ash-red, etc) also affects the outcome of the grizzle factor, i.e. ash-red and grizzle in combination usually approach white color more than blue and grizzle. Many of the racing whites are double factor grizzles on top of an ash-red base color.

Pied gene causing the solid white flights and splashes is different altogether but can be in combination with grizzle and would also help to get a white youngster.

But it wouldn't matter if you use grizzle hen or cock, same genetic probabilities either way, use a white or try to make your own by going grizzle to grizzle, etc.


----------



## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

As posted contact Dennis Kuhn.His Whites have won against All Colors.Don't pay any attention to Warren.Not all flyers are as hard core or technical as him.Most flyers get started because of the love of the birds and watching them fly,then onto the racing part eventually.Some opinionated posts on here can be discouraging to new people.Get yourself some good whites if that's what you want.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> Yes you get more young out of a white cock, but it is easier to get more whites/grizzles out of hens since they only carry that one gene unlike the cocks.


 I stand corrected, thank you.  I was thinking in terms of using as stud and producing four times the number of babies, but for general purposes I will assume your information is correct.

Also, with the additional information this fancier provided, if he likes whites, then by all means acquire a kit of white YB's and fly them. You might just end up with a good one, and as suggested, paring with a good one you already own may produce more of what you seek. You are on the right track then.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Josepe said:


> As posted contact Dennis Kuhn.His Whites have won against All Colors.Don't pay any attention to* Warren.Not all flyers are as hard core or technical as him*.Most flyers get started because of the love of the birds and watching them fly,then onto the racing part eventually.*Some opinionated posts on here can be discouraging to new people*.Get yourself some good whites if that's what you want.


 You make some valid points. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and not holding anything back ! 

You will notice that I did moderate my position some when he added additional information that he owned a variety of colors, and just wanted to add some whites. I am a strong believer in that you should acquire what you personally like to look at, as we may race a couple months out of the year, but we have to look at them 24/7 in our day to day care. 

I do digress a bit to add, that I do believe I am opinionated about any number of things, as the author of this thread will become as well, all in good time. Having said that, I believe there is opinion, and there is fact. Facts can not really be disputed, they are not opinion. If providing a new fancier with the facts, even if they are harsh reality, then one should not shoot the messenger, because one does not like the facts. I may have to reread my previous posts, but I believe I stated the facts, and thus the truth. 

Now some of my nice new to pigeon friends might ask me a question, should I tell them something to make them feel good so as not to be discouraged ? Or should I supply them with the truth, every little dirty aspect of it ? So, am I hard core ? Yes, and in the words of Jack Nicholson, I ask you new fanciers do you want the truth ? You can't handle the truth !!  

To be continued.....


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The thing that sucks about white is that it is recessive. Recessive white is, anyway. You can get heavily pied birds that turn out solid white. Homozygous grizzles can look solid white or actually be solid white, usually with the help of piebald. Then there's the white grizzles which are solid white in the pure form.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The thing that sucks about white is that it is recessive. Recessive white is, anyway. You can get heavily pied birds that turn out solid white. Homozygous grizzles can look solid white or actually be solid white, usually with the help of piebald. Then there's the white grizzles which are solid white in the pure form.


 That alone makes my eyes glaze over.....my bias towards the white feathers is that they don't hold up as well as darker feathers. At least that has been my experience with very lite silvers. After a few races their feathers become worn and frayed much more quickly then the feathers on a darker shade bird. If somehow I came into possession of a great racer which was white, I would breed the bird and winning offspring to darker shaded birds, or as I have done with lite colored silvers or splashes that have done well, I sell them, but hey that is me. This is not to discourage any reader from embarking on a journey to produce white racers, as already posted there are some out there that have done well in the races. There are simply fewer of them then most other colors.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's okay Warren  My point was that recessive traits take a little more work to keep up when working with performance as well. But it is of course very possible!


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what I would do is have two groups.. whites and birds for racing what ever color they may be, if you get some good whites that hold up then introduce it to the race program, but if you follow race scores..the end result probalby would be splash and piebalds and bb's depending on what your race birds traits are. so really you are not breeding for color in the end if you want to do well in racing.. but I think MR . Smith already hashed that out for you.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Everyone is saying Dennis Kuhn a lot of people says hes nice, etc., etc. but I never hear anyone talk about the success they have with their birds.

Try Ted Amsler
He has won 20 races in the past 2 years with whites/grizzles.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

First To Hatch said:


> Everyone is saying Dennis Kuhn a lot of people says hes nice, etc., etc. but I never hear anyone talk about the success they have with their birds.
> 
> Try Ted Amsler
> He has won 20 races in the past 2 years with whites/grizzles.


does he have a contact number or email?


----------



## ward13v (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks for the info does have Contact for him


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I thought someone told me the Roger Mortvedt in California has a white family of birds.


----------



## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

First To Hatch said:


> Everyone is saying Dennis Kuhn a lot of people says hes nice, etc., etc. but I never hear anyone talk about the success they have with their birds.
> 
> Try Ted Amsler
> He has won 20 races in the past 2 years with whites/grizzles.


I don't know how much more out there I need to be than having my race winners from 2009' old birds on the 2009' AU Yearbook cover, not to mention a testimonial page that I admit I need to update, but still one can see others who have won with my birds all over the U.S. I guess some people just never get it? Still racing whites/white grizzles and doing well, and more importantly enjoying flying the colors that others say shouldn't or can't win!!!!

Dennis Kuhn 
http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


----------



## realtalk72 (Nov 7, 2009)

there a man by the name larry rose in hilmar ca. he races white homers there mostly jannsen and he flys tuff in our club he might be able to sell you some he flys with the GSF..CLUB


----------



## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Good luck. I am sure there must be a few Champions out there in the world that are white in feather, but the vast majority are going to be of another color. Hard enough to breed a race winner of any color, let alone trying to breed a race winner of any particular color. .


Warren, you do realize that your *"Idol"* Ludo Clausing had a lot of white grizzled birds in his family of birds with obviously some top race results. *I say if someone whether new to the sport or not, should fly what colors they want, and not be deterred by others. Breed the best to the best and success will eventually come your way.* There are many fanciers here and abroad who have won with all different colors racing pigeons. Just recently one of my friends posted about a solid white doing extremely well in a money race (10th overall ace pigeon out of 1,353 birds that originally had entered the Derby Race). The link is listed below and you have to scroll down about 1/2 way to see photo and pedigree of the bird. http://www.derbyatlantic.com/DERBYingles/auction2012over-2.htm

A fancier who likes the different colors and races them too,

Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664
http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

dennis kuhn said:


> Warren, you do realize that your *"Idol"* Ludo Clausing had a lot of white grizzled birds in his family of birds with obviously some top race results. *I say if someone whether new to the sport or not, should fly what colors they want, and not be deterred by others. Breed the best to the best and success will eventually come your way.* There are many fanciers here and abroad who have won with all different colors racing pigeons. Just recently one of my friends posted about a solid white doing extremely well in a money race (10th overall ace pigeon out of 1,353 birds that originally had entered the Derby Race). The link is listed below and you have to scroll down about 1/2 way to see photo and pedigree of the bird. http://www.derbyatlantic.com/DERBYingles/auction2012over-2.htm
> 
> A fancier who likes the different colors and races them too,
> 
> ...


 I also say if a certain color floats your boat then fly what ever color it is that you like. But, one only has to look at the various National Champions to see that only a small minority of them have been white. And if all one has to do is mate their best to their best, in order to become a Champion then all fanciers should be Champs because they all claim to be breeding their best to best. Vast majority of fanciers will only ever be average, it is simply a mathematical fact. I am happy for the guy who managed a 10th place finish in the derby, but as you will note, the bird was beaten most likely by 9 non-white pigeons. So relative to the 1344 other pigeons he did much, much better then average, but at least in this race, there were 9 other birds which were better.

So, do I care what color of birds one wishes to fly ? No. Those who own white pigeons always seem to get defensive when I say it is difficult enough as it is to breed a good race winner, let alone to limit yourself to breeding from a certain color. People then take that to mean that I'm saying there could not be some obscure 10th place winner somewhere which is white. Which of course, I have not suggested any such thing. Even my friend Ludo had some grizzles at some point, as a result of breeding from the stray he took in, and then later sold to Mike Ganus. See: 

http://ganusfamilyloft.com/Golden_Witten.htm

Then again, in order to find more winners, the white pigeon advocates typically want to expand the pool of birds by including grizzles, which I think is really a bit of a reach. I think what "they" did to expand the pool of "winning" birds, is "they" invented the white or grizzle One Loft race. That way white pigeon fanciers have a chance of winning an event. 

Again, for about the third time, everyone keep and own what you like. I simply enjoy poking a bit of good nature-ed fun at guys that keep whites, saddles, bar less blues, etc etc thinking if they simply breed their best to their best, that sometime in their life times, they will produce racing super pigeons.  Me, if I was going to focus on a color, it would be the red and blue velvet's. Because as you know, some of greatest racing pigeons of all times, were red or blue in color !!!


----------



## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Well spoken Dennis.And it was that Stray White Grizzle that made Ludo known in the beginning I believe.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Josepe said:


> Well spoken Dennis.And it was that Stray White Grizzle that made Ludo known in the beginning I believe.


Yes thank you for sharing that fact again, as a picture of the bird is on the link I provided. And I think you make my point, a great master such as Ludo would use a bird of any color if it advanced his cause of winning races. His original published family tree starts with of all things, a red HOREMAN cock bird. Thus his "Vos" line. And yes, even a stray white grizzle off a barn. When he decided he had better, he sold the bird and moved on. Mike Ganus purchased the bird and sold offspring @ $3000 a pop. A great Master is looking at far more things then just the color of their feathers, which is why Ludo won 7 National Races competing against tens of thousands of pigeons in some cases. So great fanciers such as Ludo did not discriminate based on color. He did discriminate by keeping only the best breeders and racers over the winter. He was brutal in that regard. 

So if a great white pigeon flies into my loft, I might just breed out of him as well.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Yes thank you for sharing that fact again, as a picture of the bird is on the link I provided. And I think you make my point, a great master such as Ludo would use a bird of any color if it advanced his cause of winning races. His original published family tree starts with of all things, a red HOREMAN cock bird. Thus his "Vos" line. And yes, even a stray white grizzle off a barn. When he decided he had better, he sold the bird and moved on. Mike Ganus purchased the bird and sold offspring @ $3000 a pop. A great Master is looking at far more things then just the color of their feathers, which is why Ludo won 7 National Races competing against tens of thousands of pigeons in some cases. So great fanciers such as Ludo did not discriminate based on color. He did discriminate by keeping only the best breeders and racers over the winter. He was brutal in that regard.
> 
> So if a great white pigeon flies into my loft, I might just breed out of him as well.



And not because of his color Im sure...lol..


----------



## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Let me see.

Reasons for keeping specific pigeons:
1. They race well. Very hard to find/breed.
2. The confirm to a standard. AKA show. Very hard to find/breed.
3. Combine #1 and #2. Very hard to find/breed twice over.
4. You enjoy the camaraderie of your club mates. Not too hard.
5. You enjoy watching birds fly around their home which happens to be your home. Pretty easy.

I really want some white for the house (just ask spirit_wings) because I like them. I also like the club and and having birds fly. As a fairly new flyer I have my hands full just getting on the first page as I am still building the stock (proven only counts if you have results). If you are racing to race (#1) then you kind of need to work on building your stock and leave color as something you work in later. If you want to conform to the standard then you should look to build homing in your color preference then start adding speed (note MOE is someone to listen to on the genetics so when she says this is a hard color to breed I pay attention). 

So from one new guy to another, figure out what you want to prioritize then stick the course. I'm pretty sure Dennis has years of breeding to get those results. And I'm pretty sure there was a similar decision made when he was starting.

BTW, when I have my stock working, Dennis will likely get some of my money. Although Mr Smith is on my list of folks to talk to as well. For now I am learning to handle the birds before I go for the wins. No point shelling out hard earned cash to waste them because I don't know how to manage them properly.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't care what anyone says, I'm gonna fly whatever color birds I want. As I'm sure some of you have figured out my goal is to put color into competitive racers. Dennis, Tom Barnhart, and others are already doing a good job with various colors.


As for flying whites you just have to be very selective on who you get them from. So many birds are bred and sold as racing homers without any testing whatsoever. Not all of the white release people do much with the birds either. I wish Benja would check out this thread and comment about his whites. He has a white release business and goes 100 miles in all directions. I have a few unbanded ones from him and they fly like crazy. I've bugged him to race them as well.


----------



## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I don't care what anyone says, I'm gonna fly whatever color birds I want. As I'm sure some of you have figured out my goal is to put color into competitive racers. Dennis, Tom Barnhart, and others are already doing a good job with various colors.
> 
> 
> As for flying whites you just have to be very selective on who you get them from. So many birds are bred and sold as racing homers without any testing whatsoever. Not all of the white release people do much with the birds either. I wish Benja would check out this thread and comment about his whites. He has a white release business and goes 100 miles in all directions. I have a few unbanded ones from him and they fly like crazy. I've bugged him to race them as well.


 I agree to each their own , you can win with birds of any color if your willing to go the distance and be very selective through your years of breeding the best to the best . Time and knowing your birds will make the differance .


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

PigeonVilla said:


> I agree to each their own , you can win with birds of any color if your willing to go the distance and be very selective through your years of breeding the best to the best . Time and knowing your birds will make the differance .


Exactly. It is very possible to do both at once. James Turner did it with his rollers. People have do it with homers. Damascenes, another flying breed, has one of the more time consuming colors involved.

So, I just wish all the old farts would get off my case


----------



## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Exactly. It is very possible to do both at once. James Turner did it with his rollers. People have do it with homers. Damascenes, another flying breed, has one of the more time consuming colors involved.
> 
> So, I just wish all the old farts would get off my case


 yeah they are way to stuburn and set in their ways but the funny thing is none of them have even tried to fly whites or any color yet they are still that opinionated .


----------



## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't think anyone is on anyone else's case. As a matter of fact I think everyone agrees that any fancier can and probably should do what they think is best for their loft. I think the two factors that Warren (who has a ton of experience as do many others) and I (who is just starting to get competitive) see is "new" and "competitive". I don't think that there is no chance to have a white that wins it all, but I think it will take a ton of breeding and work. For someone just starting to race, I would think that effort might have a faster return (aka winning) with a larger gene pool (non-white). 

And MoE, I would never presume to tell you what to do. You are much more experienced than I am. And you have much better results. You've also been breeding for racing a lot longer.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jaysen said:


> I don't think anyone is on anyone else's case. As a matter of fact I think everyone agrees that any fancier can and probably should do what they think is best for their loft. I think the two factors that Warren (who has a ton of experience as do many others) and I (who is just starting to get competitive) see is "new" and "competitive". I don't think that there is no chance to have a white that wins it all, but I think it will take a ton of breeding and work. For someone just starting to race, I would think that effort might have a faster return (aka winning) with a larger gene pool (non-white).
> 
> And MoE, I would never presume to tell you what to do. You are much more experienced than I am. And you have much better results. You've also been breeding for racing a lot longer.


 I think you articulate the issue far more eloquently then I did. My apologies to any fancier out there who does have a serious breeding program, which just happens to entail white or other unique colors. And Mr. Kuhn, please do not take anything I said as an affront to your birds or program. It also was not my intention to discourage anyone. As Jaysen said better then I, if one eliminate's all other individual birds which could advance your gene pool, "just because of feather color" you could inhibit your advancement within the racing pigeon world. 

Now, having said all that, I confess that I may have been biased by all of the white pigeons I have seen and owned in my life. My intention was only to communicate that to be a competitive racer, is a very difficult road in the first place. 

For those care to check it out, someone produced evidence that I did own at least one white pigeon. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=601890&postcount=911



Best wishes to everyone.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I never said who I was referring to. I was actually talking about the "old farts" I fly with, not anyone on the forum.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

In my club the issue with whites and grizzles is "the hawks get 'em" but everyone knows they win since my mentor is selling his best birds (blue bars) and focusing on his whites and grizzles which have done good as well.


----------



## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*best white's*

Roger Mortvedt has best whites and a race record to prove it.


----------



## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

bob prisco said:


> Roger Mortvedt has best whites and a race record to prove it.


Tbh I got a pair of white young from him in 1995 and I lost them from 10 miles my grandpa was furious because I had paid like 150? Don't remember the exact amount it was alot for a 16 yr old kid

I did get a pure white cock from Stan vold out of north Dakota that he said was white bandit blood that bird was AMAZING


----------

