# Eggbert is sick



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Folks, 

I've got a sick bird on my hands here and I wanted to run some things past you guys before I make any decisions.

Yesterday morning when I got home from work I noticed that Eggbert was acting odd, listless and sitting very still. He was/is hardly moving at all and standing in an odd position. Rather than holding his head and chest up, his whole body is in a horizontal line. It's like he's laying but he's standing up. He's stopped cooing and tryng to get at the youngsters. He's become disinterested in eating and his poops are off. They are sourish smelling, and the urates are yellowish or white and with a lot of liquid. 

I checked his throat and all looks normal but his breath does smell a tad sour- I think. He's not fluffed up per se, but he's hunched and just stands in the same spot, completely still. He's able to fly and has been flying up to his perch for the night rather than being grounded. I'm thinking canker here but I'm just thrown by the fact that he's acting this way and I'm also confused by his extreme listlessness. He was totally fine the day before yesterday and I figured it was just an off day for him yesterday. Today, he's still the same so now I'm concerned. I've never seen him act like this before

I have spartrix still if needed but does this sound like cocci perhaps? I have no cocci meds left either...they expired over a year ago. I can't imagine why he'd be sick all of a sudden with no obvious signs and I keep everything immaculately clean in their room. Floor, dishes are all scrubbed each day throughly. None of the other 3 birds are acting sick at this time either.

I don't want to panic but before I take him to the vets I just wanted to get any opinions. Perhaps this is something that someone has seen before or that someone will have a good take on. My vet isn't the greatest either but I have been with her for awhile now and I have been through many worse ones before. I don't know if she'd be able to identify what's wrong by observation or not and I might have to wait on fecal tests if I end up taking him. 

Thanks,


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Brad,

Sorry to hear that Eggbert is feeling poorly. Are his poops normal? Vent clogged at all? Possibly something stuck in his throat? Any chance of him ingesting anything metal .. a staple or anything like that? 

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> Sorry to hear that Eggbert is feeling poorly. Are his poops normal? Vent clogged at all? Possibly something stuck in his throat? Any chance of him ingesting anything metal .. a staple or anything like that?
> 
> Terry



Hi Terry, 

Poops are off - dark green and slimyish at times, with quite a bit of yellow or whitish urates...more than a normal poop. They smell sour as well, not overly strong but it's definitely detectable. Vent is not clogged, nothing appears blocking his throat, no nodules or anything suspicious there. I don't think he has ingested anything foreign like that because I vacuum the floors every day thoroughly and I haven't been doing any building in the room.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Sounds like time for a fecal or perhaps treat for worms and/or use one of the multi-purpose products like 4 in 1 or Multi-Mix.

How old is Eggbert?

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Terry, 

Do you think I should treat with Ivermec then now? What about giving him spartrix? I don't like that medication because it tends to make them throw up and since he hasn't been eating, I think he will for sure. I don't have any of those multi purpose meds either though.

I plan on taking some poops in for a fecal but I just hope that there is enough time for this...he's not acting very good and it usually takes them 2-3 days for results.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Brad,

I'd definitely go ahead and treat with what you have. Perhaps the problem is nothing more than worms .. didn't at least one of your birds have worms before .. not sure I'm remembering correctly.

Does the place where you buy your pigeon supplies have any meds in stock?

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> I'd definitely go ahead and treat with what you have. Perhaps the problem is nothing more than worms .. didn't at least one of your birds have worms before .. not sure I'm remembering correctly.
> 
> ...


Ok Terry, 

I'll go ahead with the ivermectin and maybe try to pop a spartrix. I really hate treating randomly but I guess I have no choice. I'll take a sample in today and hopefully they'll have results by Friday. Yes, Henny had worms when I got her. They also got worms from the crow I had a couple of years ago. I have been treating with ivomec regularly (I thought) but I suppose the last time I treated them was about 6 or more months ago now.

No, where I get my pigeon supplies, it's mostly a feed store and they have very few medications other than things for worms, canker and simple things. We don't have a big selection here in Canada for buying drugs for animals so I order most of my supplies from the USA.

Btw, Eggbert is 5 years old.

Thank you,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sour smelling poops usually indicate something worse than coccidiosis or worms. Now, there's a few different ways that they can smell bad so if it's a sulfurous smell it's usually different from the odd, bad smell of coccidiosis. I'd probably lean towards E. coli or something like that. Urates will discolor with liver disease or dehydration and when they get like that it can go bad quickly. You have to determine whether it's the actual poop (the solids) that are getting bad (indicating an enteritis) or whether it's totally the urine and urinary products that are getting bad (indicating kidneys and liver). Those aren't the only things, either.

I've got to go to my grandmother's funeral now (It's been a real rough week) so I'm not going to be around for quite awhile. In any case, I'd tell you that the symptoms aren't specific enough to make a sure diagnosis at this point without some kind of tests to start limiting the possibilities. That seems to me to be an obvious conclusion ("We don't know enough... ") that doesn't help you at all at this point.

I will say this though--Metronidazole is an excellent antibiotic for the lower intestines because it modulates the immune response in that area. It does a h*lluva' lot more than simply being an anti-protozoal for Trich. However, you might have a bloom of Gram-negative bacteria that's making the smell in which case Baytril would be a good choice, but you'll never know without tests.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Pidgey, 

I know it's gonna have to come down to tests. I called my vets a short while ago and they've already sent out their samples for the day. They don't do test at this clinic, they send them away to another lab. So, I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow anyway to get the samples in.

Thanks for the information and I'm so sorry to hear that your grandmother passed away 

Take care and I send my sympathies to your family,


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hi Brad,

I'm so sorry to hear Eggbert is sick. My first thought was cocci, but that doesn't mean I'm right. It's strange he's ill when you have just a few pigeons and I know you keep everything scrupulously clean. I hope your vet will make a swift, accurate diagnosis. It sounds to me like a fecal and blood work are in order. Please keep us posted.

-Cathy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Brad, I am so sorry to hear Eggbert is sick.
Often I wonder how they can get sick when they are only indoors and don't come in contact with other birds. It must be from samething they carry and then it starts multiplying. That could be trich, coccidia, E.coli, candida what else. 

I know some of them vomit after Spartrix. Have you tried to dissolve it and give it with food (formula)?

If you dewormed them, I don't think he could have gotten it again, being only indoors.
Smelly poops makes me think of Trich or candida.

It is so worrying when they get sick out of the blue and you don't know what could be wrong.
Would give some vinegar in the water, in case of candida or coccidia, it does help and won't hurt.

Hope he starts feeling better really soon.
Keep us posted.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

There is, in my mind at least, one very easy way for problems to be introduced to your birds that you would have very little control over Brad and that is through feed itself. If you have ever been on a farm you will know right away why I say this. Feed bins, silos, storage etc are a magnet for birds and rodents and it is very difficult to make them totally bird and pest free.

Most folk don't go to that effort anyway unless the problem is bad and grains meant for animal vrs human consumption get a tad less security that way anyway. So despite the best efforts at indoor cleanliness you can still encounter feces or particles left by birds and rodents in the food mix you buy. I have seen bin problems with my own eyes. It's quite common really.

I realize this isn't helpful at knowing what is going on but thought to mention that if you have recently started with a new feed bag or a different brand you might want to throw it out and start with another. Hopefully you get a quick answer on the fecals. BTW, how much is it out there. I think I paid about 45$ for Windy last time I was in. 

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti and Cathy, 


Thanks for your input here...it is very confusing as to why he's sick all of a sudden in such a clean and controlled environment I too, am leaning towards it being either canker (internal-possibly in his crop or throat) or a heavy cocci outbreak. Unfortunately I don't have any cocci meds at the moment, my amprol is expired. I have spartrix but I'll have to wait until tomorrow now as water has to be removed for two hours after giving it. 

I worry about worms too because they are insidious and my birds have had them a few times in the past already but the soul smelling droppings don't point to worms. 

I'm really not very prepared anymore for illness because I've gotten lax, letting my meds expire and not replacing them. My birds have been so healthy now for years and since they are indoors and so few, I figured they were totally fine. All the other 3 seem perfectly fine as well at this time.

I'm working at 11pm tonight and haven't been to bed yet but I'm going to check on him now, make sure he gets some liquids into him and set him on the floor by his seed and water. When I get up tonight and if he's flown back up to his perch for the night, I'll take this as a good sign for now. Tomorrow if he's still this way, I'm going to the vet's first thing and get him looked at and get my vets opinion. I'll have the sample sent in as well. Perhaps she will sell me some meds for cocci as well since I can't get any, anytime soon.

This is so worrying....but thanks guys for your support and valuable input.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> ...Metronidazole is an excellent antibiotic for the lower intestines because it modulates the immune response in that area. It does a h*lluva' lot more than simply being an anti-protozoal for Trich...
> Pidgey


Brad, so sorry that Eggbert isn't feeling well. I've had several birds vomit with Ronidazole and Spartrix. Have never had a problem using Metronidazole. If you decide to go that way, get the tablets, determine the correct amount for your bird's weight, then crush the tablet, mix with applesauce or babyfood squash, and administer via syringe. Sure hope he rebounds quickly!

Pidgey, so sorry about your grandmother!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Yep, I know that there is always a possibility of contaminated feed I'm not on a new bag though, it's about a month old now, stored properly and everything. I trust this feed store as much as I trust in anything but that isn't iron clad...what can we do though. The other birds are fine at the moment so it's a bit odd that way if it was the feed. 

Fecal floats with my vet are about the same, $39 or so. I'll let you know tomorrow for sure, the blood tests are around $100 or more however. I don't really have full confidence in my vet to be honest, but she's been my vet for years now and after going through about 4 other crappy vets, I have stuck with her. She is a caring, compassionate women and used to dealing with pigeons. I actually got her name from another well trusted member here in the forum. But since the time this vet tried to tell me that paramyxo virus was the same as paratyphoid............well, I've been very dubious of her abilities

I'll keep everyone posted and let you know what happens tomorrow. Signing off for today.

Thanks again,


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Sour crop?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Brad,
So sorry to hear Eggbert is feeling poorly.  

Just a thought, is he drinking an excessive amount of water?
I hadn't realized we were on page two. I clicked reply on page one. Anyway, I notice that Daryl has suggested possible sour crop. 

This is what I'm thinking. Eggbert is showing the same symptoms as Pij did. Thankfully the first time was during the day & I was able to catch it & get him to the vet, where he evacuated 70 cc's of bile looking liquid out of his poor crop. In Pij's case I found his seed dish half empty (very unusual for him) & his water dish was empty.
As we all know, this most recent episode was during the night & I was unable to get catch it in time.  
Just something to keep in mind. If you even suspect sour crop, please get him to the vet asap.

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brad,

I am sorry to hear Eggbert if not feeling himself. Although we don't keep pigeons, done some rescues though, we have parrots, the one thing that sticks in my mind is what my avian vet told me about birds when we took one of our birds in that seemed fine one day and was quite ill the next. Birds really disguise being ill very well, especially prey birds which parrots are, and pigeons are as a matter of fact as well, it's instinctively built into them and by the time we humans realize they are ill, they have probably been feeling off for a number of days.

In the last fifteen years, when our birds have been sick the vet almost always starts them on some course of antibiotics or anti-fungals one time on both together, until they can get results if their practical experience tells them infection of some sort. It seems like humans, many times they like to get sick on Fridays, where results will not be back until Monday.

I always feel better myself treating them this way as they can turn downhill sometimes quickly when an infection is present. One time one of them ended up with heavy metal poisoning, lead, from nibbling at the corner of a baseboard in a Victorian style house we lived, we since sold partly for this reason. We found out that it takes amount the size of the head of a pin to cause illness. They did start this particular bird on an antibiotic and continued her on them even after the results came back and they started her on CaEDTA, as the bird was in a weakened state and could be prone to picking up an infection.

I guess what I am trying to say is when in doubt treat, as I feel the consequences of not treating are much worse than treating in my mind.

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brad,

I'm so sorry to hear about Eggbert.

When I read your first post I thought it may be e-coli because of smell, and cocci, as that always seems to come on as secondary. But that is just guess work.

Do you have any probiotic capsules on hand?...any Sovereign Silver?...-it will help with candidia, sour crop and anything going on with infection of some kind? (Put a drop of silver in his water bowl) I'm sure you have ACV & Garlic soft gels, or is his tummy upset? Try these until you can get him to the doctor, and feed him by hand for now.

These things won't hurt but they may help.


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## EdMurray (Jan 28, 2006)

Hi Brad.
I`m very sorry to hear about Eggbert.
I hope you get some sort of diagnosis soon and get him on the right treatment. He`s in good hands anyway.
Hope he gets well again soon.
All the very best to you both,
Ed.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

It could be something else, but I've learned to suspect the most obvious culprits, canker and cocci first, because as you know you can't completely get rid of them. But in such a clean, stable environment it seems as though Eggbert must have something else going on to make him suddenly vulnerable. Adult pigeons usually develop an ability to live in equilibrium with whatever strains of canker and cocci they have, that is unless something else stresses the body and causes the parasites to multiply. Anyway, I hope your vet will get to the bottom of it.

You probably can't lay your hands on any quickly, but Baycox is an excellent medication for coccidiosis and it's very safe. 

I'm praying for you and Eggbert. I know how frustrating it is to have a sick bird and not know what's wrong.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you everyone for your input and well wishes for my Eggbert. Tonight (at 9pm) Eggbert seems pretty much the same. He was roosting for the night so I couldn't really gage his activity level or behaviour. 

I had set him on the floor of the room before I went to bed but when I got up, he was on his perch for the night. I know this may not seem like a great sign or a big deal to most of you, but for a runt - being as heavy and less likely to fly, I take this as a pretty good sign. At least he had the energy and desire to make it up 4.5 feet off the ground. There were times, in the past and when he was totally fine that he slept on the floor of the room and I thought it was odd, but he was fine.

I can't tell if he's been eating because I leave the food out all day, with a good amount and he and henny eat out of the same bowl. I also can't tell if there is more water consumed either. All I do know is that I didn't see him eat or drink at all this morning because he barely moved for the hours that I was observing him.

I forgot to mention that I did also think of the sour crop possibility...I sure hope that ISN'T the case I know how potentially deadly this can be I did however forgot to mention, the pigeons do get ACV in their water every other day so doesn't this seem unlikely it would be a fungal infection of the crop? I felt his crop earlier today and it wasn't hard, or water filled that I could tell.

I do have the garlic gel caps Treesa but no sovereign silver. It's all going to have to wait now until tomorrow and when I see how he is. If he's the same when I get home from work, I'm taking him to the vet first thing. 

Boy, I hope he's going to be alright....I'll let you all know what if anything I find out tomorrow.

Thanks again,


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Can you separate him for the evening Brad. You will then know from the poops you see in the morning if he has been taking enough liquids or not.
This has worked for me and was for a while the only way I gauge liquid intake.

Cameron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad,

I'm really sorry to hear about Eggbert's health and hope that he's back to his old self soon. You've gotten lots of good input, and thought I'd mention a couple of things as well. 

If you have an aquarium supply store nearby, they usually sell Flagyl(Metronidazole) in small packages called Fishzole. I believe they are normally in 250mg tablets. The sour crop can be either bacterial or yeast, so Jazaroo makes some good points. This won't help you now but Medpet does have a Nystatin product that I think Jedd's carries. 

And going with the known suspects, worm 'hosts' can go into an 'auto-infest' cycle, where even though treated intestinally, the are still in the system in especially the lungs/air sacs and re-infest. I've also read that parasitical infections can cause fungal secondary conditions. Of course slightly mildewy seeds could also be a culprit. Not enough for us to smell it but enough to bother them. I would think cause to be something out of the normal although with an understandable route. 

Also, I keep reading comments in medical posts that Ivermectin is starting to show resistancy in treating roundworms, although I don't think anyone is suggesting tossing it out, they do recommend that it be rotated w/other wormers.

Anyway, hope this helps some and that Eggbert continues to show you signs of improvement, I'll be sending you both healing thoughts.

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Brad, I sure hope he continues to improve. If there isn't a noticable difference by tomorrow, you might consider separating him and putting him on a heating pad. Since prey animals hide their weakness, we only notice when it's pretty bad. With their high metabolism, things can progress very quickly.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks you *all *so much, It's comforting to know that others understand and I know you all do. We have all been in this position at one time or another with our birds. I slept horribly yesterday and checked on Eggbert quite a few times because I just couldn't get to sleep.

It's just after 1 am EST, and I'm at work right now. I sure hope Eggbert is improved by morning. Even if he is improved, he's still going to the vets' and I'm still having tests run.

It is so very worrying when you're in the dark. They can't tell us where it hurts or what's wrong so we just have to guess. This episode has made me really think. I've been too complacent these past couple of years with my birds. I've slacked on keeping my meds current, I don't even have a heating pad anymore - I gave it to Mary and I need a new pet carrier to use as a hospital/transport cage.

Thanks Cathy for the recommendation on the Baycox. I was looking at this awhile back and meant to order it but never got around to it. It sounds EXCELLENT. I'm going to place an order for some essentials tomorrow morning. There was a product in Siegels catalogue called "10 in 1"...anyone ever used it or know whether it's good or not? I'm going with the Dr. Pigeon products as I've heard very good thing about those. I'm going to order Turbosole, Baycox, and a few other things.

I sure hope there is some improvement with Eggbert in the morning, at least to ease my worries. Regardless of what the vet says or does, when I bring him home, I'm going to try giving him a spartrix tablet. Does anyone know what the correct dose would be? On the package instructions it just says to give one tablet per pigeon. Shouldn't it go by the size of the bird and it's weight? My birds are about twice the weight of your average pigeon, so it would seem to me that I should double the dose. Spartrix is losing it's effectiveness as it is, and I've always only given them one tablet. Perhaps this is making things worse by not giving them a strong enough dose?

Thanks, and I'll give more updates later on today.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I read recently that one of the theories for some of the meds losing their effectiveness is due to underdosing. When I start a course of anything antibiotic, I go for longer dosing schedules. I tend to distrust the 'one-time-shot' drug preparations, even for worming. I can't see folks acquiring a 'war-chest' like I've got, including the lab instruments, for the sake of only a few pigeons but it sure does come in handy sometimes.

I do understand your worry about a vet being confused over the difference between PMV and Paratyphoid, though. That'd raise my radar, too. Does Eggbert have bad breath?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Brad,

I have some doxycycline, amoxicillan, nystatin, metronidazole and Cipro (closely related to Baytril) on hand as well as some Chlor Palm (chloramphenicol). If you feel you could make use of any of these, I probably live less than a 1/2 hour away from you if you are in Oshawa.

Ron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Ron, 

That is very kind of you to offer. I just placed a large order through Siegels for a bunch of things, including baytril. I've got my vet appointment this morning at 10:45 and I'll take it from there. I don't suspect that my order from the US will be here in less than a week. I'll also have to see what the vet says or recommends and what if anything the fecal test/throat swaps show. 

I really think it's canker...I don't know why, and I could very easily be wrong but I think it is. I do have spartix on hand still and I'll also see what the vet uses and perhaps try something else if she has it. 

I'll see what the tests come back with but I'm probably going to start him on spartrix today if my vet doesn't agree or won't prescribe a canker med. If the results come back negative on the usual culprits-ie: canker, cocci, worms etc, then I'll get some blood tests done and have to wait for those. In the meantime if Eggbert is not improving from the canker meds, and my package isn't arriving, I may take you up on your offer of some cipro.

Thank you VERY much,


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

No problem, glad to help if I can, just let me know.

Ron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Not to discourage you, but I've read that many strains of canker are now resistant to Spartrix. I also read in an article written by a vet that it rarely cures it anymore in the single dose given in the package instructions but takes at lease 5 days. I don't know about increasing the dose for larger birds, but runts are awfully big so it would seem appropriate to give them more. I think Spartrix has a pretty wide safety margin, unlike some canker drugs, such as Emtryl. We do cut the dose down for small birds. I give newly weaned babies 1/2 a tablet as a preventative. 

If it were me, I'd keep him on it for at least a few days. Even if he has a resistant strain of canker it's better than nothing. I learned the hard way that I need to rotate my canker meds--I didn't have a problem with any of my pigeons, but we did have some foster babies pop up with it last year and a couple of them died.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The Spartrix can be used up to four days according to some of the folks here,
plus can be used w/metronidazole simultaneously. I've also read from several sources the same regarding the resistant canker, according to Chalmers, he believes this is so because of the practice of underdosing.
Also a product called Ron-sec you might want to check out at some point. Hope things go well for you with the vet, and I can sure commisurate w/you on your concerns w/that. It can be so hard finding the right one.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am sorry that Eggbert is ill, Brad. Have you got him separated from the other three? While he is ill he should be kept separate with a heatlamp or heatpad, so that he doesn't use up valuable energy keeping warm.

It will also enable you to monitor his water intake, dehydration is such a serious condition. A girl at work had sickness and diarrhea for a week then went into cardiac arrest because she became dehydrated so please monitor him closely. If has sour crop and the water that he drinks is not going further than the crop then he will need fluids subQ.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, hearing Eggbert is sick makes me sick too. I can't add anything to what the others have said but just know you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*


Lady Tarheel said:



Brad, hearing Eggbert is sick makes me sick too. I can't add anything to what the others have said but just know you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Maggie

Click to expand...

*I feel the same way as Maggie! I just read this thread! Sure hope you find out WHAT the problem is and be able to CURE it! We will all be waiting to hear about your trip to the Vet...

Pidgey...I'm so sorry to hear about your grandmother! I hope you are doing OK!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

I'm back from the vets and I thank you all so much for all your input and concern....it really means a lot and it helps to talk about things and to ease the stress. I was VERY worried about Eggbert yesterday and I know how quickly they can go downhill when they start showing obvious signs of distress.

My vet wasn't able to see me today for some reason so I got their other lady vet, I was a bit surprised. However, she was very thorough with the questions and in asking for background information about my birds. She started off by examining his throat, vent, and feeling his crop. She was very careful and methodical in doing this. She said he had seeds in his crop and that his throat/mouth/vent were fine. She did say that she saw some whiteish deposits near his choanal slit but couldn't confirm if they were canker or plaque. She did agree with me that his mouth did smell a little bit sour. She listened to his heart and breathing as well which my vet never did. I had collected a sample to take yesterday but when I got there I realized I left it at home but pigeons make more as we know. 

After the question & answer period and the intial exam, she said she was going to do a gram stain/fecal smear to start. To my surprise, they did this right away...I'm a little confused on all of this because any previous times I was there, they sent the fecal samples away to be tested and this is what I was told on the phone yesterday. I thought I had gotten fecal floats in the past but I guess I never did Within about 10 minutes she came back and told me that cocci counts were normal, there were no evalated levels of trich *BUT*, he had a pretty high count of Clostridium gram negative bacteria. *** You were on the right track, Pidgey!!!*** She said this would explain the malodourous poops and his general malaise. I have never heard of this bacteria myself and she said it's not all that common in all pigeons either. I was RELIEVED that for the first time, they actually found SOMETHING!!!!! She confirmed that this could be the result of an underlying problem already but we would start here. 

So, she prescribed liquid metronidazole 100mg and I'm to give it to him for 5 days. She said that if I don't seem an improvement after this time, we will test deeper with fecals...mentioning that the next tests would be very expensive and then after that would be blood tests. I have to admit, I was a little confused by her methods because my previous vet(s) didn't seem so accurate or organized. 

The bottom line today...we're treating him now for a problem that showed up in the tests and I feel confident that this is his problem and will resolve after the medication. This metronidazole in unfamiliar to me but Pidgey, FP and Ron were on the mark. I never knew it was such a broad based drug and I've never used it or actually seen it to order.

I hope to have another good update tomorrow for you guys and that Eggbert is just that much better. Thanks so much for sticking by me and Eggbert and maybe this will help someone else down the road too.

P.S-Cameron, 

The bill today was $200 in total.
examination - $65
Fecal examination/smear - $24
Gram stain - $35
Medications (to take home) - $50
metronidazole itself - $18

Plus tax was approx $200.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Brad,
Thank you so much for the update on Eggbert.
Special thoughts that he will be back on track real soon.  
It makes us very sad to hear that any of our pijjies are feeling bad.

Cindy


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Great news Brad!! We're all glad that Eggbert will be feeling better soon!

Linda


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Too much clostridia isn't good or any of the wrong ones, for sure. The Clostridium family is responsible for botulism, tetanus and gas gangrene. However, I thought they were Gram-positive rather than negative. Here's an intro to the family:

http://www.cehs.siu.edu/fix/medmicro/clost.htm

A Gram stain doesn't tell you what bacteria you're seeing in the scope, by the way, it just provides you a way to differentiate the Gram-negatives from the Gram-positives. In so doing, you can count them and also get an idea of what the balance is of long rods to short rods, etc. Generally, you'd rather have more Gram-positives than Gram-negatives but there are certainly some Gram-positives that you don't want or don't want too many of.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Brad, great news that your substitute vet seemed more thorough/methodical than the regular one. I'm hoping that you'll see continued success w/Eggbert's health. I don't own stock in any of these products, but Medpet does carry a 100mg tablet that is coated to help with ease of administration with issues of nausea. Might want to eventually have something like that on hand. Look forward to your next update on Eggbert....

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brad,

I am glad to hear that you have a diagnosis and that you have meds to start treatment. I did do a Google search on Clostridium and at this link 
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic211.htm (you have to scroll down the page to medication), Pidgey is on the mark that it is a gram-positive bacteria, they suggest treatment with what seems to be a few different meds in combination, one these is Cipro. If you find the treatment with metronidazole alone is not making the progress you would like, as I said before, I am happy to provide you with the Cipro.

Please keep us updated, I am sure Eggbert will be back to his old self before you know it.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Somewhere in all this you've got to determine (well, it'd be nice, anyway) why this happened in the first place. It may be that he picked up something with a bacteria colony on it or it may just be an overbloom of 'the wrong stuff'. You may have to consider the idea that you treat these birds too well. Sometimes, an environment and diet that is too clean can be a problem--you're not prepared for relatively simple bugs that may come your way.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Glad to hear you have some, hopefully, definitive news now and Eggbert will recover well! I am assuming that you will request this particular Vet in the future? Like doctors, not all vets are created equal and that includes Avian Vets...So great when one is found that has that "extra special" quality!

Keep us updated...


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Somewhere in all this you've got to determine why this happened in the first place. It may be that he picked up something with a bacteria colony on it or it may just be an overbloom of 'the wrong stuff'. You may have to consider the idea that you treat these birds too well. *Sometimes, an environment and diet that is too clean can be a problem--you're not prepared for relatively simple bugs that may come your way.*
> 
> Pidgey


Your comment sure rings a bell, Pidgey! I remember the thread about leaving poops in the nest after babies are born...

Sometimes I think our society is TOO concerned with 'cleanliness!' Of course, there CAN be a fine line...


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## EdMurray (Jan 28, 2006)

Glad to hear you made some progress with Eggbert, Brad, that vet sounded cool.
Hope you`ll soon have him well back on track

Sending you good wishes,
Shalken and Ed.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm glad you have something definitive to deal with Brad. We all know how very frustrating and stressful it is to know something is wrong but not be able to find out what or how to deal with it.

Terry


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi, Thats great news Brad about getting yourself a good Vet. And from your description she was thorough, attentive and caring. I hope you now have good medical support for your birds that you can have confidence in. Thanks BTW for the info on costs there. Seems like you got a bargain on the Fecal but the exam was on the high side. 

On the other hand, it all balances out and I do believe you get what you pay for. Sometimes that all amounts to peace of mind and it's well worth the money paid so you can sleep well. I'm looking forward to good news about Eggbert now. It is indeed a relief to have a good diagnosis so you know exactly what you are dealing with. Instead of groping in the dark and trying to treat the unknown like I have been doing lately with mine.

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Brad, I'm relieved that you have a diagnosis and had such a good vet visit. She sounds thorough and a lot like my vet. My old vet used to send everything out, which costs more and means waiting for results, but the one we see now does a lot of his own work with the microscope and only does lab work when necessary. I'm glad the vet you saw today was able to give you answers right away. 

I learned something today about Metronidazole working as an antibiotic. I didn't know that before. 

Please keep us posted on Eggbert's progress. I'm sure he'll be fine now that you know what's wrong.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wow, Brad, I am so glad you found what is wrong with Eggbert.
Seems like you found a great vet there.
Chlostridia is not something I would think of. Hope the metro will kill it all and your Eggbert will recover very quickly.

Reti


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Brad,
I was so sorry to hear that Eggbert was not feeling well.
It seems to have been a blessing that he was seen by the other vet. 
Hopefully, he will recover quickly now. Just wanted you to know both of you are in my thoughts & prayers.
Bob & I already prayed for Eggbert & will continue.

Phyll


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Thanks again folks for all the good wishes for my Eggbert, they mean more than you know. I'm feeling fairly positive now and with the metronidazole, I'm hopeful that he's on his way to recovering from this infection.

I am/was unfamiliar with clostridium, in fact I don't know a lot about bacteria in general. Pidgey, I read your posts and the information about clostridium and it's rather scary!!! I thought the vet had told me it was a gram negative bacterium, but that could be my mistake. Clostridium sounds very, very bad and I'm a bit worried again for Eggbert and the other birds now. 

I did ask the vet what caused this with Eggbert and where he would have picked this up. She told me that he probably picked it up earlier on in his life, somewhere along the lines but developed an immunity to it. She confirmed what we all know here which is, that during times of stress or a weakened immune system, bacteria equilibriums can go out of whack to the point of causing full out disease. I did some more research on clostridium after reading your posts Pidgey and found out some things as well. Here are 3 websites discussing the disease in poultry/pigeons and it's also listed as a zoonotic along with E.coli, salmonella etc! This vet didn't mention this to me nor did she seem concerned about it spreading to my other pigeons and I did ask about that too.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexdsl/s/astp53/bird/vet4.htm
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/disbact.htm
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/zoonos.htm


Before me, Eggbert and Henny's life was on a farm. The conditions there were poor at best in my opinion and the man kept all sorts of animals; ducks, chickens, turkey, geese, pigs, cows etc...the whole gamut. Perhaps this is how & why Eggbert came in contact with this type of bacteria to start with. 

As for my husbandry of the pigeon room, yes, I definitely keep a clean room but I don't think I'm too clean. I scrub the floors and ledges once a day with water and vinegar and paper towel dry, I only change the water once a day - cleaning the dishes with antibacterial dish soap and hot water. I vacuum all surfaces thoroughly once per day and with the food dishes, they are only cleaned once per week in hot water/dish soap. I didn’t think I was not overdoing things, does this seem too extreme?

This vet does seem much more thorough and seems to understand things better. I like the way she approaches things and makes them simple. She also doesn’t seem to beat around the bush as much as the other vet did; hmming and hawing and she seemed to listen better. I think I will request her in the future if needed.

FP- Thanks for the information about medpet selling metronidazole, I will look into this. Seems like a good thing to have on hand for sure.

Ron – Thanks again for the very kind offer, I’ll keep you posted and let you know if I need the cipro.

Ed – Thanks for your support, and how is Shalken doing?

Thanks Cindy, Shi, Linda, Terry, Cathy, Terri, Cynthia, Maggie, Treesa, Cameron, Reti and Phyll for all the kind words and for keeping Eggbert in your thoughts. I really hope to have continued good news in the coming days ahead.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In light of Eggbert's history, Brad, you should therefore try to minimize stress, it seems. I think you need to acquire an "easy chair", get him his own TV w/remote that he can watch BigBird on Sesame Street with and keep him well-stocked with the "canned beverages" of his choice.

It's for the sake of his life and health, Brad!

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad, 

Funny they mention Bacitracin, as the BMD that I've seen advertised only mentions the "green slime" disease, and I never did know what they meant by that. Thought you might be interested in knowing that on many of the sites that I googled, they mentioned contaminated food as a source of the bacteria.

Of course if the bacteria is similar to canker or coccidiosis, then there is really nothing you can do except monitor stress factors, but if there are other routes of introduction, then perhaps there are other remedies as well. Don't know if freezing a weeks worth of seeds over night would kill the bacteria, obviously you can't boil it. I've read that some folks actually spray their seeds w/a solution of vinegar and water before serving it up.

I used to clean w/a solution of bleach and water, then switched to a solution of Nolvasan. But I've been thinking lately that if organisms get resistant to meds, why couldn't they also get resistant to one method of cleaning? I do have an order of the Oxine AH coming in and am intending to rotate what I clean with in addition to the other rotations, it might be 'over kill', no pun intended, but I figure it couldn't hurt.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Some of the worst resistant bacterial strains are found in hospitals. Is that because they clean too much or because sick people bring them in (rhetorical--there is no good answer)? Clostridia live in the soil so it may be likely that they're somewhat freeze tolerant.

After reading somewhat about the various Clostridia, it's obvious that it can be a very serious bug and the treatment options depend a lot on which member of the family it is. Bacitracin is used to sterilize the gut because it isn't absorbed into the system and is lethal to most organisms. That can't be all the treatment that you'd administer because you're going to have to repopulate the gut pretty quickly with avian-adapted gut bacteria.

Some of the references tell about Vancomycin being used on some of the family members as well as Penicillins, Metronidazole, etc. You're almost looking at a culture and susceptibility test. Oo! I hope the Met does the trick and quickly because this could turn pretty serious.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pidgey and all, 

I'm happy to report that Eggbert is doing wonderfully this morning...he's nearly back to his old self This morning he was cooing, (for the first time since Monday), charging at the barrier to get at his offspring and he ate and drank as well

I am curious though, does the metronidazole work that quickly?...it seems odd that it would. His poops are still off, looking pretty much like they have all week but he's a brand new bird today otherwise.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, just because a pigeon acts better doesn't mean they're "out of the woods". Metronidazole has an effect that we don't understand too well--it mediates the immune response, especially in the large intestine as mentioned here in the bottom of the "how this medication works" section:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_metronidazole.html

Anyhow, very often the immune response may be too harsh and THAT can make us feel really bad. It may be what you're really seeing is some relief from the local inflammation. In that case, you STILL FINISH the prescribed course of the antibiotic.

OR, he's getting better on his own and this was merely a hiccup in life. That happens. In that case, you STILL FINISH the prescibed course of the antibiotic.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pidgey, 

Thanks....yes, I had planned on giving the medication as prescribed even though he's feeling better. Thanks for the link about this drug too

It's just quite surprising the 180 in his attitude today. I just gave him his second dose of the metronidazole. I REALLY have to get me some of this stuff to have on hand. Do you have the liquid kind, Pidgey?

Thanks Pidgey and thanks FP for telling me where I can get it


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, Brad, no liquid. All I've got are Flagyl tablets and I break them up and weigh out the small doses with that electronic scale that I've got.

It's not a miracle drug even though you might think it is from the behavioral change that you've seen. All my studies have indicated that the variances of immune systems, particular bugs and disease etiologies provide a bewildering plethora of possibilities. All's you ken do is da' bess' you ken do 'n hopes fo' da' bess', sumta'ms.

Bess'ta' luck!

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Appreciate the update Brad.  
I hope Eggbert continues to recover without incident. 

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can make the liquid from the tablets. We do it in the clinic.
You dissolve one tablet (250mg) with 2cc water and add 3cc light Karo syrup.
Dose is 50mg/kg twice a day.

Another one is one tablet + 10 mg water.
I prefer the one with the syrup cause it binds better then the water only.

Reti


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## EdMurray (Jan 28, 2006)

"I'm happy to report that Eggbert is doing wonderfully this morning...he's nearly back to his old self This morning he was cooing, (for the first time since Monday), charging at the barrier to get at his offspring and he ate and drank as well"

Brilliant news Brad, quite made my day to hear he`s getting right back to his old self. Good news always seems to be at a premium these days so it`s damn good to hear some!
(Shalken is pretty good thanks, he`s gonna be a dad again soon )


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so glad Eggbert is better, Brad!  Best wishes for his full recovery.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, we use metronidazole for canker. 

I take a 250 mg. tablet, crush it into a really fine powder using a mortar and pestle, pour onto wax paper then pour it into a small dark brown medicine bottle that has a cap that a syringe fits into. I use a 10 cc syringe and draw up 10 cc bottled water and add that to the bottle. You can also use a product called syrpetta (grape flavored) as the liquid. I found out our vet school used plain water so that is what I go with now.

You need to shake the devil out of it before each dose and immediately draw it up and give to the bird.

Our vet has always told us to refrigerate any medicine that is made up like this.

I don't think I have seen metronidazole work quite that fast - seems like it is usually 2-3 days but that is with canker.

Dose based on weight of bird: Using a 250 mg. tablet plus 10 cc liquid makes a 25 mg/ml concentration. Example: 250 gram bird: Dose is 20 mg/kg (the 20 mg/kg is a set standard for this medicine). Convert the bird weight to .25 kilograms. It would be .25 (weight of bird) multipled by 20 mg/kg (standard) and divided by 25 mg/ml (concentration) equals a dose of 0.2 cc volume. Give 2 x day. I use a 1.00 cc syringe to administer to the bird.

I hope this helps. I always get jittery when I medicate even after all these years - always checking and rechecking. I'd never make a doctor.  

Maggie


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Good to hear about the turn around in Eggbert. It always weighs on us when our little ones are not doing well, and it always a release of pressure on our minds when we see them start to improve from their illness.

Thought I would post this link, some may find it useful, http://zcog.org/zcog frames/Avian Drugs/Avian Drugs.htm


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

jazaroo said:


> Good to hear about the turn around in Eggbert. It always weighs on us when our little ones are not doing well, and it always a release of pressure on our minds when we see them start to improve from their illness.
> 
> Thought I would post this link, some may find it useful, http://zcog.org/zcog frames/Avian Drugs/Avian Drugs.htm



Jazaroo - That's some list. Quite interesting. I noticed Panacur wasn't listed, which is what Mr. Squeaks took when he had round worms...

MANY THANKS!

Brad - Sooo glad to hear Eggbert is better! I hope all goes well and he continues to improve!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Shi and all, 

I *think* panacur is more popular overseas generally than here in North America. Metronidazole (Flagyl) wasn't mentioned on that list either. Ron, that was a very great link you provided, excellent information....thank you 

Reti, Maggie; thank you as well for the excellent information about mixing this drug and how to administer it, working with amounts etc.

I'm very pleased that Eggbert is doing as well as he is and so quickly too! I was bowled over when I got home on Thursday morning to see him so lively and "normal". I don't know if it is the medication working so fast or not but he was miserable for 3 days prior and wasn't improving at all. Those 3 days he did nothing, made no sounds, stayed in one spot hunched over. Even though I never saw him eat or drink, he probably was...probably only enough to sustain himself.

Ed, glad to hear that Shalken is doing well too. Maybe you could post some pictures of the future family soon?

Thanks again, everyone...will update Eggbert's condition later on Friday


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad,


I am so sorry to have not been reading your thread till now!

I am way behind and in some ways, every day seems like it is still the same day, and then I amstartled to see how much more behind I have gotten.

Very glad, for reading all this through, that Eggbert is improveing..!

Certainly, any number of lesser opportunistic infections, such as Canker, could well have been taking advantage there also in one location or another, while the main culprit was the Clostridium.

I think some of the mentions in these five pages now, of Metronidazole...have helped my understanding of why it has worked well for me in uses where Canker was not per-se suspected by me to have been the main culprit, but, since at one time, the Dimetridazole or thence the Metronidazole, was about all I had med wise, but for an old 'old' Bottle of ( always refridgerated) Oxytetrecycline, so, I used to use what I had, and, often, the ill Bird did well with it.

I wonder if the use of ACV-Water at 1-1/2 or 2 Tablespoons to the Gallon, would help discourage or reverse conditions of a Pigeon having overmany Clostridium bacteria..?

It is certainly good for discourageing or reducing the numbers of quite a few various other ones...


Best wishes to you both...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

It's great to hear that Eggbert is getting back to his old self. 
I know what a relief this is, Brad, & I'm happy for both of you. 

Phyll


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> I wonder if the use of ACV-Water at 1-1/2 or 2 Tablespoons to the Gallon, would help discourage or reverse conditions of a Pigeon having overmany Clostridium bacteria..?
> 
> It is certainly good for discourageing or reducing the numbers of quite a few various other ones...


Hi Phyll and Phil...thank you both

Phil, to answer your question about the ACV, yes, it should have been a deterant for allowing the proliferation of the clostridium. When the vet saw this, she suggested that I be giving ACV to my birds in the water. When I told her that I do and have been using ACV all along, she was quite surprised as well that the clostridium had multiplied to these high numbers. She said what you were thinking - that the ACV should have prevented or detered the overgrowth. And like you, I use a higher dose of ACV in my water (about 2tbs/galon), which is what Foy's recommends anyway. I give ACV more than most people do as well, every other day.

I know you're a busy guy here and at home Phil, so no worries but I do appreciate your input


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

> Jazaroo - That's some list. Quite interesting. I noticed Panacur wasn't listed, which is what Mr. Squeaks took when he had round worms...


Hi,

I hope it provides some use. The list is by no means complete and is slanted somewhat towards psittacines, but I thought it would provide a good referrece to draw on for people unfamiliar with many of the drugs sometimes used in avian medecine.

The link is part of my bird resources folder and I always feel the more I can understand what the vet recommends using or prescribing and why, the better off my birds are in gereral.

Ron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Just thought I'd give an update on Eggbert...he's doing great. His poops are pretty much back to normal, healthy looking and firm  He's displaying every bit of his old ways and is very active. One more day left of the metronidazole and that's it.

I had a scare with him today though after I gave him his medication. The metronidazole is in liquid form and I give it to him with a syringe with a long, thin plastic tip to it (about an inch long). I open his beak wide and tilt his head up to the ceiling while I give the meds. The amount I give him is 1.7ml and I make sure that the needle goes back past his glottis and slowly force the liquid out with even pressure. Anyway, about half way along, my finger pushed too hard on the plunger and it came out too fast. He started to cough so I think I may have gotten some into his windpipe. He coughed for about 20 minutes and then he seemed ok.....I really hope he is ok. 

This all happened just after 12:30pm this afternoon and I watched him for the rest of the day and he seemed to be fine after. He was eating, drinking, and going about his business as usual and the coughing stopped. Went up to his roost for the night with Henny and seems content, relaxed and ok. Boy, it's always something to worry about....and I just hope that he really is ok.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Brad,
So glad to hear Eggbert is doing well.

I don't think the little mishap with his meds will cause any problems.
I've never had that happen, but I think if he were in danger, things would have progressed rapidly. 

Please keep the updates coming.  

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Cindy, 

I do hope he's ok, I have read about how even the littlest amounts of liquids that get into the airpipe can lead to serious problems, such as pneumonia. I could kill myself for this slip. I don't even know how it happened, it was like a muscle twitch or something and I pushed it too hard and fast. I feel so sorry for the poor guy, for all that he's been through this week and I'm sure after this he thinks I'm trying to kill him !


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, that can sometimes happen. One of the reasons we use a smaller, 5 - 10 cc. feeding syringe now is because of that very reason. We seem to have more control. But with a medicine syringe they can sometimes just shoot the med into them so fast. Try inserting the syringe on HIS left side, angle it to HIS right side and then just push it all in at once. That way it will usually go straight down, bypassing his air duct. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

How many days does this make. Normally, we give metro 7 full days and sometimes the vet says go to 10 days.

Maggie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Maggie, 

Thank you, I sure do hope he's ok and nothing develops from this slip of mine. The vet's instructions were to give him the metronidazole for 5 days. And as for the syringe, it's a very small one, it only holds 2 mls in total.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brad,

I think Eggbert will be fine. 

There have been few occasions in the past when dosing our birds they have aspirated a small amount of the meds we were giving them with no ill effects (we are much better at it now with experience). Like you, it came out quicker than expected or the bird took a breath with some meds still to go down. My guess this is because the body quickly absorbed the liquid, much like when a swimmer may take some water into the lungs for a number of reasons they did not plan. This is unlike aspirating food which can grow bacteria or yeast setting up an infection, while always a concern if it was food I would be more troubled.

Please keep us informed.

Ron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Ron for the comfort that Eggbert should be ok. It's so stressful when things go wrong and I know it's very stressful to Eggbert as well. He runs and hides and has learned already that that syringe means bad news

Unfortunately I had another episode today This time, my hand didn't slip on the syringe or push it out too fast, he simply just started to choke. I was very careful and slow. I tried to place the needle more towards "his" left side, rather than in the centre as I had been.

I've been in PM's with Terry and Pidgey over this because I'm just stressed to the max. I'm not used to giving liquids via syringe and the first 3 days I gave it to him, everything was fine, no coughing and it went down easy.

Terry and Pidgey think that Eggbert might be gagging out of reflex now as he's disliking the whole process. I managed to give him about .8ml of his last dose today and I'm just terrified to try to finish it up. I'm going to have to leave the second half of the dose until tomorrow and try again then.

Poor Eggbert, I was hoping that it would go well today and it'd be done with, but then he started to choke again and we were both upset.....terrible


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## EdMurray (Jan 28, 2006)

Hi Brad,
Sorry you are having a hard time giving Eggbert his meds.
Just a little note...when Shalken was sick recently and I was worried about him getting fluids, I had a syringe but no sort of needle/tube thing.
Someone gave me advice here and that was to just put drops on his beak and sure enough, the drops would sort of trickle down mostly to the end of his beak and he would sort of suck them in.
It was very time consuming and of course, a lot of drops went astray but it did work.
Just a thought.
All the best to you and Eggbert,
Ed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad,



Well, if they are going to aspirate a little dab of anything, 'meds' are about the best choice one could hope for...!

I am sure he will be just fine on that score...


I have taken to lightly lube the Syringe Plungers with Olive Oil anymore, and to work them a few times in the empty Syringe before drawing up whatever...especially since some of them maybe are less than new, 'plastic' ( all my good Glass ones are buried in storage) and while being steralized between uses, can have those pesky gummy-spots or unexpected little hang-ups if un-lubed, that make for just such uncomfortable surprises.

Whether for tube-feeds out of a larger syringe, or meds or what out of a small one...


Best wishes you two...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you Phil and Ed, 

Thanks for the suggestion Ed about trying to let the meds trickle into his beak but I really don't think Eggbert would swallow it that way either. I have a feeling he would spit it out. He's not a very tame bird and is quite distrustful of me....he's always been like this and unfortunately all his memories are probably centered around me having to medicate him, disturb his nest and babies, and just nothing very positive. 

I have a feeling that Terry and Pidgey are correct in thinking that Eggbert just chose not to swallow the medication and maybe when it backed up his throat, this is what caused him to choke. I of course thought he did swallow it and put more down which made things even worse. 

Phil, thanks for the words of comfort, I really would never forgive myself if I hurt Eggbert in this manner. Pidgey said the same thing as you and that I probably don't have to worry about him possibly aspirating a bit of the meds and that this is a "better" thing to go down the wrong tube. I'm not going to try again and he was basically done his metronidazole dose anyway. Hopefully I won't have to administer anymore liquid meds for a long time. If I do, I'm going to make sure I've got a tube to go into the crop and try that.

Thanks again guys,


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brad,

This may not be of help right now with what you have, but in the future may be. 

I have learned to be able to mix up some of my own meds to get the dose to a point where it can literally be administered in just a few drops. Take Cipro for instance, by crushing up a 500 mg tablet and measuring out the dose I want to administer, usually about 10-15 mg, I just need to add a few drops of water and then a few drops of a syrup I make boiling water and sugar to give it body and administer. This dose is usually less than 1/3 of a 1CC syringe and goes in quickly into the side of the mouth with no episodes of choking. This will work for crushing any tablet or opening any capsule and doing the math and measuring for the correct dose. 

I tend to agree that Eggbert knows what the syringe now means and is resisting taking his meds, I know when our birds see the syringe they head the other way. This is main reason for me making the dose concentrated and quick, less stressful for both them and me.

Ed's suggestion is a good one, and exactly what I do for the Nystatin I have which is not concentrated, give slowly a few drops at a time at the side of the mouth, perhaps just giving half the dose if they are really fighting or things are not going as smoothly as I would like, and the rest 10-15 minutes later.

I hope this helps for now, your doing your best and I am sure it will all be fine for Eggbert.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In a PM, Brad asked me about some kind of anatomy course or illustration for a pigeon's esophagus. I found this real quick but it's kinda' rough:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html

It would have been nice if the illustration had been much larger but that's what they did. I've never taken a picture down a bird's gullet before but there's always a first time so I'll give that a try in a bit.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Ron, 

Thank you, this is a very good idea. This time I didn't have an option because my vet dispensed the medicine herself and it was already mixed in a sugar suspension. 

I'm not all that experienced with the "drug" aspect of bird keeping. Especially the whole concept of mixing my own medicines of various kinds with various suspensions. I'm used to giving certain meds, that I know the doses for and they've mostly either gone into the water or they've been pills that I pop down the throat - hassle free.

There may come a point where I will need this valuable information though because there is a possibility that Eggbert's mate might have been infected with the clostridium. I've been keeping a close watch on her and she seems fine but I've found some suspicious poops from her. I don't even know whether or not she passed the bacteria to Eggbert or vice versa. The vet I went to see will NOT give me anymore medication if I don't bring in the affected bird and their poop for analysis. FP and someone else mentioned that I can get the metro/flagyl at a petstore for fish. If the time comes, I will need to know how to make a solution with this.

For now, I've started all my birds on mega doses of probiotics and higher than normal doses of ACV. Tomorrow, I'm going to start Eggbert on the probiotics as well since I'm finished with the metro.

Thank you again for the great information and the kinds words...very much appreciated because this has been a very stressful time for me and certainly Eggbert.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I can certainly see the logic to wanting to treat both birds at the same time. Why indeed should you have to get more fecals and exams when you now know you have something that can be passed from bird to bird. Your Vet is being a bit difficult I think. This could get tricky too, if an illness can be passed back and forth while one is recouping the other is just catching it anew. I don't know if this could happen exactly like that but it seems plausible.

BTW, Brad, I also gave a bit too much water and not quite correctly when I first learned about tube feeding a few weeks back. Windy pulled back while I was giving her water, the tube slipped out and she got a bit in her beak instead of into the crop. I kicked myself around for three days thinking what a fool I was for not having a better hold on her when doing the feeding. 

Anyway, she coughed for a few minutes and like I say two weeks or more has now passed and she is OK in that department (no pneumonia or other adverse reaction) I have a much better hold now when I feed or give liquids and use a scarf because I found it is easier to control the bird that way than using a towel. We live and learn I guess. In the end crop feeding turns out to be a snap. It's just a matter of trying it once or twice and getting the confidence to do it I think.

Now go tell that Vet off 

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Yep, you're right and I had even asked the vet at the time whether I should be concerned about my other birds. She said that it really wasn't much of an issue and that if there were any signs of illness in the future to let her know...which I did. I called her on Friday about this and that is when she told me that I'd have to bring the bird (in question), in for a check up and have that pigeon's poops tested as well. 

So, she's not that great afterall....sounds like a money grab to me. I do know that our Canadian vets are a little more strict than some of the ones in the USA however. As well, I have a feeling that she is more of a parrot/psitticine specialist...most of them are. They don't seem to understand that with pigeons, most people have a lot of birds and there is a possibility of flock treatments being needed. My other regular vet who I didn't get to see, has experience supposedly in treating pigeons so I've heard through the grape vine. 

I'm hoping that my own natural remedies such as the probiotics and ACV will nip any problems in the bud...that the bacteria won't have a chance to multiply too much thus causes illness.

Thanks...boy, you're such a help here on the forum now and always have something great to offer


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Well too, if I have a real 'wiggler' when it comes to tube-feed or tube-med time, I just use the 1/2 inch wide 'micropore' tape, and tape 'them' into a snug, feet taped back against the Tail affair, with rings of Tape every inch or so starting at the primaries...

You can set them down that way too, and they do not move...but they can 'roll'! 

I set one down one time on a table top, to go get something and by golly they rolled themselves off...I heard a thud, came trotting back in...and I felt so bad!!!!! But thankfully they were no worse for wear...

Anyway, some I can do with a light easy wrap around of a small Towell...some, I use a sock with the toe cut out... some I can just hold with no device other than my knees, and some, well, some are 'tape birds'...(The Micropore tape comes off very easy with no problems...sticks to Feathers well, yet pulls right off nicely so long as you go 'with' the lay of the Feathers...)

That, and when I am to do the deed, I hold them between my legs, just behind my knees...that way both hands are free and they are also nice and upright.

Too, I lavish praise on them when done, about thow well they did and so on, which, who knows, might help a little...you know, about as much as the skinny end of nothing wittled down to a fine point? Thereabouts? ...Lol...

That, and of course, to lube the 'tube' so it slides in easy...

And make sure whatever it is I am putting down there, is warmed...


...didja get that Scale now?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you Phil for the detailed instructions on how to secure a pigeon and tube them I am lucky that 3 of my birds (including Eggbert) don't struggle very much and I do hold them like you described. 

I'm mostly still confused about the throat of a pigeon and where the second airway is located. I'm somehow not communicating my question good enough to the members or I'm missing something altogether. In my mind, I had the plastic tip of the needle far enough past the airhole behind the tongue but not too far down the throat either. I've been told that it doesn't really matter which side you aim for while inserting the syringe down the throat so I'm having a difficult time understanding why it seemed that I pushed the meds down the airway in his throat when I angled it to the birds' "left" side or my "right" side. Is the birds' throat one big cavernous hole to the crop only?

As for the scales, I've had a digital scale for eons, you must have me confused with someone else....

Thanks Phil,


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi again Brad,

My second Vet gave me a syringe with a "needle" on the end too which I promptly disposed of. I am using a setup that Phil told me about, a syringe with a thin plastic tube attached to the end, about two inches long. When moistened first with a little oil and the bird gaping because you have the beak open so you can see what is what, it slides very easily down the throat and right into the crop. 

My first Vet, a real sweetie too if I must say, gave me a demonstration that I will always remember and appreciate. There is no fear of feeding into the windpipe this way as long as you are watching where it goes. My tube actually has a curve in it which is just about the perfect angle for the feeding and it doesn't make the bird all that uncomfortable once done it is efficient and smooth. They hardly seem to notice but do promptly poop on your knee when it's over. Yuk!

Thanks for the comments Brad. I have been feeling a bit bad lately about some stupid comments made to other members that I should have kept to myself. I am still hoping they will forgive and forget. You probably know what I am talking about already, I deleted that post the other day. All the best.

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Brad, I just want to add that Metronidazole tastes nasty and even though pigeons don't have a great sense of taste, they don't like it. I think it's bitter. Eggbert has probably decided, rightfully in his mind, that this is something he must fight. Being a big bird, I'm sure he can fight pretty hard, too!

A few years ago I had a youngster with a bad case of canker and my vet put the whole flock on liquid Metronidazole for five days. It was a mess and took us hours--at that time I had over 60 pigeons. It really pushed the limits of my husband Steve's support of my hobby.  Some of them really fought it: they struggled, choked, gagged and one threw it up every time I gave it to him. A few frightened me, but none of them suffered any lasting consequences, though like you I was worried about aspiration. I've administered liquid meds many, many times with no problems, but the Metronidazole solution was thick and required each pigeon to get a much larger amount than other meds I'd used in the past. So it was not easy, but we all survived it. 

Although I think my vet kind of went overboard that time having me treat the flock with liquid Metronidazole, I think highly of him and now that he knows me well he is supportive of me treating my pigeons prophylactically for common diseases using meds I get from the pigeon supplies. I suspect he felt at that time it was a nasty strain of canker and the liquid was more effective than what I could put in the drinking water. Since then I've been treating them every few months for canker and rotating meds, we haven't had a problem. 

Anyway, I hope you can eventually build a relationship with a vet so that he or she will trust your judgment, understand the dynamics of working with pigeons, and not insist on seeing every bird in order to prescribe meds. My vet has even asked me what we had on hand at home and let us use that. I'm blessed that he used to keep pigeons himself and has lots of experience with them in addition to being an avian specialist. He has been to our house and seen how I keep my pigeons, too.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Brad, I just want to add that Metronidazole tastes nasty and even though pigeons don't have a great sense of taste, they don't like it. I think it's bitter.
> but the Metronidazole solution was thick and required each pigeon to get a much larger amount than other meds I'd used in the past. So it was not easy, but we all survived it.
> 
> .


Hi Cathy, 

Thank you for recounting your experiences with the metro and your birds. I'd have to agree with what you've said about it. I've heard it's bitter, I did have to give a larger amount than other liquid meds and it's thick and syrupy. Eggbert doesn't fight too much surprisingly, but he really dislikes the process of being forced to take anything. I'm relieved to know that your pigeons never suffered any ill effects after the coughing and choking after the metronidazole. Eggbert as well seems to be doing just fine after his (to me) scary episodes.

WOW, your husband is a great man and obviously very supportive of you and your hobby to have gone through treating 60+ birds with this medication. I can't even begin to imagine the worry, anguish and time involved with that!

Your vet sounds like a real pigeon keeper's dream. I wish I could find one so accomodating here still. Luckily, I only have 4 birds and mostly they are healthy. I suppose for the few times that I do have to go to the vets, that their care is adequate. They have been accurate a few times now with diagnosis' and giving me the meds to do the trick. As far as me needing more meds, I can always get them somehow without going back to the vet. Then there is always someone here knowledgable to help with the dosages etc.

Thanks again for the input Cathy


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Brad,

If we have a Canadian supplier of bird meds could you post that for me. Not everything can be bought across the border so easily and without a lot of hassle and paperwork at times. Many Thanks,

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

No, I don't know of any Canadian suppliers. I had mentioned this in your "Windy" thread just a little while ago actually.

I have always had to buy the meds I need from the USA. I get them from either Foy's, Globals or Siegels mostly. Luckily, I've never had a problem receiving my supplies. Sometimes there is a risk that they will be confiscated at customs but I take and know the risks.

As far as I've always been aware, Canada isn't allowed to sell many medications without having a vet's prescription. There are ways around this sometimes though. For example, Ivomec...this is a cattle wormer but is/has been used with wonderful results for pigeons for a long time now. It's sold at many of the pigeon supply stores in the USA but only sold for use for cattle here in Canada. The metronidazole: I just recently learned you can buy it in pet stores in the aquarium section as flagyl. I checked and sure enough you can...so this can be used as well for treating the pigeons. 

I guess we just have to be more resourceful here in Canada as to how and where we obtain the medicines we need for our birds. Any of the "hard" stuff, like baytril or amoxicillan, those are nearly impossible to get here without a prescription for humans or pets.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Great, 

Those are good tips. I don't know how I missed the mention you made in my own thread but I could be getting loopy because it's so late now. Or I am repeating myself not knowing it and slowly going senile.

I am currently using Ivomec but got it from the Vet. Only a very small amount though, just enough to dose both birds once, possibly twice each. Flagyl though is especially good to know about if available in aquarium stores so I'll check that out. I may need some yet.

It's supposed to snow here tonight. Maybe 6 inches so tomorrow will be fun on the roads. LOL, not looking forward to that. Talk to you later.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> I'm mostly still confused about the throat of a pigeon and where the second airway is located. I'm somehow not communicating my question good enough to the members or I'm missing something altogether. In my mind, I had the plastic tip of the needle far enough past the airhole behind the tongue but not too far down the throat either. I've been told that it doesn't really matter which side you aim for while inserting the syringe down the throat so I'm having a difficult time understanding why it seemed that I pushed the meds down the airway in his throat when I angled it to the birds' "left" side or my "right" side. Is the birds' throat one big cavernous hole to the crop only?
> 
> As for the scales, I've had a digital scale for eons, you must have me confused with someone else....
> 
> Thanks Phil,



Hi Brad,


Oh, sorry, on the scale thing...

...what does Eggbert weigh though?...which was maybe some of what I got myself confused about...and I can get myself confused sometimes, too...!


Anyway, 'Airway' wise -

Looking onto their throat with their Beak open, in a good light...

Closest to you, in the center, and likely visibly dialating and closeing somewhat or changing it's aperature size anyway, is their Airway...Windpipe, or Tracheal opening. This, in effect being behind their Tongue...

As far as I know, they have only one airway, and, this is it.

I too had heard tell of the second airway, and it confused me also.


The back of their Throat, and larger in aperature size, and not occuring in a more or less flat plain as the Tracheal opening is, is their Esophagus, whose terminal end is in effect the back of their Throat itself...and, it is thought easiest to slide a Feeding Tube, or Lavage 'Needle' or section of Catheter or whatever impliment is to be used to feed them manually, or to evacuate their Crop even...to slide it, so it goes in from one side or the other, rather than to try aiming for the middle of the opening or the 'back there'.


Sometimes one hears that it is best to slide it from one's Left side ( being I suppose, the Bird's right side...)...Lol...

I do not see how one side or the other would make any difference. But I do think that slideing the 'tube' along one side is a good method...as it twirling it gently back and forth as one slide it, if it is flexible and able to be twirled. This helps make sure it can not bottom out on some unexpected area of a possibly tender or delicate Crop side...while one still is trying to get it to go in farther thinking one has room.

Certainly, holding their Beak open, or having an assistant to do it, while one look in there in a good light, to see well what one is doing, is the best way for one's initial forays into feeding or medicating them this way.

I had never done this till about a year ago, and, I find it hard to imagine how I ever got along without it.

Previous to learning how to do the 'Tube Feed', I used to make thin sieved 'soups' of Bird Food things, uncooked of course, but I would make those and do my best and do my 'Rain Dances' and whatever else to try and get a non-eating Pigeon to drink them, which, sometimes, they did.

My first Tube-Feed Birds were two, two or maybe three day old Baby Humming Birds...I lost one the second day, and kept the other going for fourteen days I think before I lost him.

...and they actually made it very easy because they eat that way and expect Momma's long slender Beak to slide right down their gullets and right into their tiny Crops. They were about the size of Coffee Beans thereabouts, but they in effect stand right up and say 'Ahhhhh!' and they will even stand up 'around' the 'tube' one is dangleing, so one has to dangle it not too 'low' or they can bottom out when they stand like that...but they are so good at it somehow, they can do that, even though their eyes do not open for like eight days or so. The 'tube' for this was around .6 milimeter o.d. and their little Crops held like some very tiny not much of an about-to-be 'drop' comeing out of the end of that little tube, once the tube was in there. I made purrees for them which I sieved through doubled up tee-shirt cloth so it would pass through the hair-like inside diameter of that tube.

...then, some short while later, was my 'Blind Bird' Pigeon feral who I posted about here and got good info and help with, who had those terrible infections in his Eyes and had been starving for some time prior to being brought here, and weighed like crumpled paper...so...at some point, I figured I better get on it and learn the drill or lose him...and, it all went well. 

He was my first Pigeon who I had to feed this way, and we did a lot of it too before he got into pecking 'Blind' and feeling well enough from his illness to be interested again in self feeding, and once he did get over that hump, he did well with his pecking, had a good appetite, got healthy and to normal weight, and now lives with Terry W. and is a pal (or maybe something more?) to Terry's Blind Pigeon Hen.

Oye, sorry I get so rambley...it is a 'tired' thing I think...life gets dream like...!


How is Eggbert doing now Brad?

...are things looking up I hope?


Nighty night...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Camrron said:


> Brad,
> 
> If we have a Canadian supplier of bird meds could you post that for me. Not everything can be bought across the border so easily and without a lot of hassle and paperwork at times. Many Thanks,
> 
> Cameron


Cameron, do you have any Farmer's Co-operators nearby? (Also just called the "Co-op"). We get a lot of our meds from there - use the chicken meds, with the dosage for pullets. If there is any chicken farms near you - ask them what vet they use, too. You can get things for cocci from most of those vets.

Some of the more pigeon oriented meds, we order from Global or Seigels. We've never had any problems having the stuff shipped over the border (knock on wood). They send it UPS or Purolator.....

Some of the meds - such as PMV vaccine, can now be ordered from the CU, as well.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil and Cameron, 

Cameron, if you ever need or choose to buy ivomec, the kind you are looking for is the "ivermectin *injectible*". This is the kind the vets use and it's either given orally or like it implies, can be injected sub Q into the bird. I give it orally though.

Phil, thank you for the clarification on the airway and for going over the procedures on tubing a pigeon medicine or food. This is what confused me too because I was under the impression that the throat had an airway and wasn't just the opening to the esophagus and crop. I couldn't understand why it was so often said that you would aim the syringe to the birds right side or our left when looking at it. To me, this would only be a concern if there *was* an air pipe in the throat itself. I've always been quite aware of the tracheal opening behind the tongue and to be very careful of that opening when giving any liquids.

As for Eggbert, he's doing very well thank you. I am pretty sure the metronidazole worked just as it was supposed to and he's back to his old rambunctious self Now that that is done and over with, he's being put on much higher doses of probiotics and I've also increased the ACV to 5ml to 500mls. (Canadian measurements). He weighed 860 grams at the vets, but he'd lost weight. He's usually around 940-950 grams


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Phil's Blind Pijjie*

Hi All,

Phil's blind pigeon is part of a three member family .. all three are blind but are completely self sufficient and seem to be a happy little group.

Terry


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

WhiteWingsCa said:


> Cameron, do you have any Farmer's Co-operators nearby? (Also just called the "Co-op"). We get a lot of our meds from there - use the chicken meds, with the dosage for pullets. If there is any chicken farms near you - ask them what vet they use, too. You can get things for cocci from most of those vets.


That is a great idea! I probably can get what I need locally.

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

There is actually more to my metronidazole story. Before administering the first dose we had to weigh everybody, calculate the correct dose and write it down! Can you imagine getting 60+ pigeons to take a turn sitting on a postage scale? We did this in our kitchen, after dark. I'd go out to the loft and catch each pigeon, one at a time. I'd place the pigeon on the scale then Steve would turn off the lights and read the numbers on the scale using a penlight. Then he'd calculate the dose, I'd draw it up and we'd give the pigeon the meds. We had pigeons that flew even in the dark and pigeons that managed to get loose. We had feathers, poop and sticky medicine all over the kitchen. By the time we were finished I was amazed Steve was still speaking to me. 

Brad, I wish you could meet my vet--he's awesome. You just have to move down here to California.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Birdmom,

All us Canucks in Parkas would gladly move to California if only for just a little sun and a swim in the ocean in the wintertime. We know you live in paradise but we're really afraid of earthquakes. Yikes!

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cathy, 

Your entire metronidazole story is a NIGHTMARE! I can't fathom how you managed to pull it off. And to think you had to do this every night with all those birds for 5 days!!!! 

Your hubby is to be commended most definitely on his patience, perseverance and dedication to you and the pigeons I would love to meet a vet as pigeon friendly and easy to work with as yours. Maybe one day I'll find one like that here.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does sound rough, doesn't it? I didn't have the heart to tell her that the allowable variation on a dose of Metronidazole is so high that she could have dosed the largest bird and given all the rest of them the same (unless the largest was a Condor or a Pteradactyl).

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That's okay, Pidgey. At the time I had only recently met my vet and I think that's why he wanted me to do it "by the book." Some of our pigeons were babies and very small breeds, so it seemed best to be careful. If it happened today, believe me I'd just pop pills down their throats instead of all that measuring, etc. We only had to weigh them the first night because after that we had their weights, but did have to measure and dose everyone for 5 nights. Ugh! My husband is the best, no doubt about it. He also helps me with vaccinations every year. 

Camrron, you actually don't want to swim in the ocean here even in the summer--it's icy cold off the Northern California coast. Southern California is a different story. But the weather is great. We have the occasional bad earthquake, but you guys have serious snow every year. I'm complaining right now because it's rained all week and we've had highs in the 60's, but last week it was sunny and it felt like spring. Yep, I'm convinced California the closest thing to paradise on earth. But I must say, the part of Canada I've seen (B.C.) was breathtakingly beautiful.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You weren't supposed to read that post, BirdMom!

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Yup,

BC is pretty nice Birdmom but I'm out on the prairies,.... all flat and cold and snowy right now. We got 3 or 4 inches today by my guess and I had to go out three times to top up my feeder. The ocean might be chilly in Northern California but those postcards with surfers sure make it look like a tropical Paradise to me even if it isn't some times. And you have all those Seals and Porpoises and Whales etc (whereas we just have gophers). I really think I need a green card, or a retirement to a nice Florida Condo. (You know, the other California). So......

California Dreamin! Now where is that Prozac and my nice Parka...

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Southern CA is a tropical paradise, but a very crowded one. Well, if you ever make it down this way I'd love to show you around. My pijjies are spoiled rotten and don't know how good they have it, I'm sure. They have never even _seen_ snow.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Southern CA is a tropical paradise, but a very *crowded one.* They have never even _seen_ snow.


Hi Cathy and all

Just a bit of trivia for y'all....There are more people living in the state of California than in all of Canada I believe there are around 34 million in Cali, but Canada has a total population of about 32 million.

By the way, Cathy...I'd LOVE to go to California one day and see all the splendor....it's one of the few places in the USA that I've always wanted to go. Maybe one day.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Southern CA is a tropical paradise, but a very crowded one. Well, if you ever make it down this way I'd love to show you around. My pijjies are spoiled rotten and don't know how good they have it, I'm sure. They have never even _seen_ snow.


Great. thanks for the offer. Hey, I could always post you some snow, overnight delivery, just for your pijjies to play in. Well maybe not but it struck me as hilarious when I thought of it a few seconds ago.

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Ah, you jest, but a couple weeks ago there was a little story in the newspaper about someone who had saved in their freezer a snowball from "the great snow of 1976" -- the last time it snowed here in the valley (there was all of an inch of snow on the ground, as best I can remember). I was born and raised here and although snow can be lovely, I believe it's best enjoyed where it belongs--on Christmas cards and calendars. So if you guys want to thaw out, come on down.  You really should see California, it's beautiful. That's why it's so crowded, 'cause people come here and never leave.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hmmm, snow on Christmas cards and calendars. OK that would be funny for you Southerners I think but it's not really so bad for us who enjoy the snow for the most part.

I actually love the snow. A long walk in cool crispy air with the snow crunching under your feet. Nothing like it! And it kills off the nasties that can't survive in this climate like mosquitos and most of the West Nile problem (but not all of course) and Malaria is non-existant not to mention Killer-Bees don't stand a chance. There's no yellow fever but on the other hand meningitis and sleeping sickness were a problem until all the swamps got drained. On and on it goes. 

On the down side, no Olive trees or Banana plantations or sugar-cane or pineapples or avocadoes. But we do have those nice Maples, terrific apples and of course the legendary Saskatoon Berries. Course there are also all those tastey Gophers that I mentioned. Mmmmm. Where's KFC when you need them. (Just kidding you know). Might rename them KFG up here anyway. Now where is my Shake and Bake for Gophers anyway? I'm starved!

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Phil and Cameron,
> 
> 
> As for Eggbert, he's doing very well thank you. I am pretty sure the metronidazole worked just as it was supposed to and he's back to his old rambunctious self Now that that is done and over with, he's being put on much higher doses of probiotics and I've also increased the ACV to 5ml to 500mls. (Canadian measurements). He weighed 860 grams at the vets, but he'd lost weight. He's usually around 940-950 grams



Hi Brad,

860 Grams???? !!!!!


Wow!

Are you sure there are not TWO Pigeons hideing there in one Pigeon-suit?

Usually around "940-950-ish"...

My goodness!

Likely the BIGGEST, Baddest, 'Uhh-Roooo-Kuh-Kooooo-Wak-Wak-ing-est' feral I have haver had in here, was m-a-y-b-e '400' grams tops, soaking wet, and these were some BIG BOYS too...!

Amazeing...!

What kind of Pigeon is Eggbert?


And, so glad to hear he is back to is rambunctous old self...!

Yippeee!


Now...don't forget his 'Sea Weed'...!

 
Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks for posting that Phil. I have been getting off track on Brad's thread talking to Birdmom (who has a pretty good sense of humour btw). Sorry about that Brad. Let's get back to Eggbert. How is he doing? 

I am a fan of that seaweed too. Still don't know why they take to it but it goes over pretty good. And I just use the plain-vanilla sushi variety, not that fancy seaweed that Phil gets.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil & Cameron, 

No worries, Eggbert is doing just fine. He's a tough old bird, and the meds worked well for him

He's a GIANT RUNT, Phil


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brad,

Great to hear Eggbert is back to his rambunctious old self.

I agree with Phil's comment, 860 grams, WOW!, and he's lost weight, that must be one big bad bird.

Thanks for keeping us informed.

Ron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Well, we did get off track there, didn't we. Sorry about that.  Brad, I'm so glad Eggbert is on the mend. What a big boy he is. The first time I saw giant runts at the show I could hardly believe it--they are bigger than some chickens. 

I got my comeuppance for bragging about California. Woke this morning to cold rain and snow down to 2000 feet. Not on the valley floor, but a dusting on the hills around us. Winter doesn't want to let go, even here.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cathy and Ron, 

Ron, thank you for your well wishes about Eggbert! Yes, my birds are quite large guys and gals To give you a size to go by, you might compare my breed of pigeon (Giant runt) to be in the same size category as say...a greater sulphur crested cockatoo. They are quite large and heavy pigeons, these GIANT RUNTS

Cathy, you are right too, Runts are such big pigeons and the first time I saw them, I was aghast as well! They are like chicken-pigeons!!!! 

Sorry to hear that you cursed yourself with snow yesterday. That will teach ya for making fun of the "Great White North"


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