# Pigeon Flecky sick for over 5 weeks - desperate for help



## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

I am desperate for any help for a feral pigeon called Flecky. She’s one of the flock of feral pigeons we feed and look after at our house.
She was one of the most extrovert and alive personalities in the flock – used to climb up the mesh of our front gate waiting for food.

Her mate Copper disappeared overnight on 12 September 2016 – presumably taken by a goshawk or falcon on his short flight back to the nest from our garden. She was left to raise their 2 week old chics solo in our neighbours stainless steel gutter. We put seed and water up in containers for her there for the next few weeks to help her feed them and she raised them successfully.

After that she looked lonely and “lost” – sitting around on her own, or with her 2 young offspring on the neighbours gutter. The male from her previous chics started to try and woo her and was around her a lot. She stopped joining the flock on the lawn and would come to the side of the house near our door. I started feeding her there and then saw she wasn’t picking up the bigger seed to eat – would peck and drop it. I gave her smaller seed and she ate that but would walk away without a fight when others come for it. Something was wrong.

We managed to give her 3 days of a Dovabiotics (doxycycline tablet) and then 2 days of its equivalent in water. No real improvement.

The following week I happened to see one of her poops and it had neon green colour in the urates. So we caught her and I took her to the vet on 11 November. Gist of the next 2 weeks:

_11 Nov: vet did a blood smear and found malaria so put her on primaquine: ¾ tablet a day for 2 days and then 1x/wk for next 3 weeks._

_14 Nov: 2nd vet visit: repeated blood smear and the malaria had decreased; did a faecal flotation. Given enrovet (generic of baytril), nystacid, medizole, _

No real change.

_18 Nov: 3rd vet visit: blood smear, crop smear, xray. Possibility of something in the crop ?? some metal or dark. Given sodium calcium edetate re metal, anti fungal syrup re some thrush. Malaria had increased again, so given more primaquine._
It seemed like a lot of meds so I stopped the medizole. The antifungal syrup replaced the nystacid

All this time she still wasn’t eating properly – would peck and drop; not eating bigger seed like corn or peas, just some small stuff. She hadn’t preened at all since 9 November since we caught her and put her in the large cage. Her poop kept changing but still had green tinge to the urates, sometimes watery.

I tried any combination and type of seed I could think of. One day she ate some sunflowers seeds, another some granules for handrearing birds, another day some linseed – and then later that day I saw her heave and she had bits of green splashed on her left hand side of her head – and she looked “green” and more off colour. I took her to the vet the next day on the 23 Nov – she hadn’t eaten anything that morning and I decided to “let her be” and to stop the meds. The vet had offered to do a barium meal to see if there was blockages in her digestion, but we decided not to that. She gave her a B12 and she expected her to die within a few days.

She didn’t – but she was losing more weight. About 80g of her 300 g at the first visit.

Still she didn’t eat much – it was like she was looking for something in all the seed and she wasn’t finding it.

I put her outside amongst the flock every day, in the sun and she looks and pecks but eats very little. At night we put an infra red light in her cage for warmth. I give her some heptonic and some homeopathic drops to support her liver; and probiotics and vitamins in her water.

We took her to a local pigeon fancier who gave us a few IDEAL tablets to see if that helped - they seem to blast her guts out so we stopped after 2 days.

Since then her poop which is now very runny , seems sour.

Yesterday we put a fresh bit of brown bread in her cage (amongst the other seed) – and she ate a lot of it like a starved bird.
Today she wasn’t interested in the bread, and I also tried a bit of cooked brown rice in her cage – and she ate a fair bit of that.

We let her outside her cage in a room each day too. When not trying to peck, she often just stand puffed up. Her sternum now shows.

But she is just fading away – despite plenty of variety of seed and food.
It seems like there is an unseen “enemy” - that nothing we have tried to treat has helped. Its just been a gradual decline.

Its not that she has stopped eating – she looks and pecks everyday – but doesn’t seem to find in all the variety the “something” that she eats enough of and consistently. Maybe its nausea, or she has felt sick from weeks ago?

Her poop is now runny and smells strange – like sour?

Any suggestions or help?? We are just trying to keep her hydrated, with food and warm.
Thanks !
sunbirdy2


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You should be hand feeding her. Can you get frozen peas there? Or cook green peas till they are soft? Is she pooping as much as she takes in? Is her crop emptying? You haven't treated her for canker?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hope she improves with TLC. Thank you for helping her. I assume the vet already checked her mouth for canker and yeast and her poop for parasites like cocci. If she had malaria I worry about an immune problem like our squeaker Chloe had. Please try the peas that Jay3 suggested and let us know how she is doing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't _assume _that the vet already checked for canker. Besides, that was a while ago, and could have it now. The sour smell does go with canker. Also, when down with another illness, bird often comes down with canker because the system is stressed.
Would cover my bases and treat for canker. Metronidazole, 50 mg once daily for 10 days.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks Jay3 and cwebster

We did check her throat for canker at various times and again this morning. When the vet did the crop smear they didn't pick up canker - that was on the 18 Nov, so about 2 weeks ago now.

Her crop seems to be emptying as it feels empty this morning. It hasn't been very full as she hardly eats much but she did eat a fair bit of rice yesterday. The poop is very runny and stills smells "sour" ( I think that would be the word to describe it).

Forgot to add in - even before we caught her on 9th Nov she hadn't been herself for at least 2 weeks. When the other birds scattered for a goshawk, she wouldn't fly with the flock, she hid on the ground. She was only flying to and from her next at the neighbours and down for food.

Also her beak has got lighter - vet said it could be from "anaemia of chronic disease"

its seems her whole system was flattened after the loss of her mate and then raising the chicks solo, even with the help off all the seed up in the gutter to make it easier for her.

She was on Medizole for a few days from the 14 Nov - which does treat for canker. I can try using that powder again in her drinking water.

It seems she is looking for bland food - like the bread and cooked brown rice. We did have fresh peas and corn for her to try as well and she didn't eat them. I will try to hand feed her some. 

Obviously she is jut getting weaker and weaker. And I wonder if all the meds she had hasn't made put her liver /system under too much strain too. 

thanks


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Medicines in drinking water is no good, cause you can't really tell how much they are actually getting into their system. Meditrich tablets from medpet works quite well for canker. I buy from Diamond pigeon stud in Kimberley (053 831 2619) and they can speedpost to you. In the meantime, lots of apple cider vinegar in her drinking water (usually 5 ml to 1 l water) but I would go for 7.5 to 10 ml rather in this case.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks Marina B

We have the Medpet 4-in-one and the Ronsec that cover canker. I have been putting some ACV into the water. I also put in probiotics and vitamins - can one put all of them together?

I wish I could figure out WHY she isn't eating normally. She has had so much seed available - and we've tried variety to try and see what she pecks at - but this is just a mystery. No clear pattern to any of this even after 4 weeks . Fading away surrounded by food??? Could the green poop and lost of water and the smell be "starvation" in the midst of food available?

I put fresh peas and corn in her cage as well today - but she doesn't touch them.
thanks


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Medpet 4 in 1 is no good to treat disease, it's just a general antibiotic. I've tried Ronsec once, but it did not cure canker in the dove I was treating. Meditrich did however. You can add the acv, probiotics and vitamins all together in the drinking water. Bright green poop is a sign of starvation. Does she drink a lot of water? Another sign that she might have canker. 

Now she won't eat the peas by herself, you will have to forcefeed her. 

Put her on your lap facing to the right (if you are righthanded). Cover her body and head with your lefthand, gently open her mouth with the lefthand fingers and put the pea in her mouth over the tongue with your righthand. If she spits it out, you're not putting it in deep enough. It's quite easy once you get the hang of it. Peas are recommended cause they are easy to feed and to digest. 40 to 50 peas 3 times daily.

I would really order the Meditrich, it's a good med to have around in case for future use. You must have spend a fortune on this bird already, another couple of bucks might just save it's life.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

And while you wait for the Meditrich, continue with the acv etc fresh every day in the drinking water. Also put her outside in a little cage, they always perks up when outside in the sun.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks

Her poop is more like an light olive green (or kharki range) now with a lot of fluid and little white - it has changed so much over the past 4 weeks but has mostly been some shade of green and variety of green tinge to the urates and fluid . I read on various sites that green urates is an indication of liver disease? the vet said initially it could be liver or blood breakdown - and so they checked the blood smear and found the malaria. They didn't ever check for liver disease. Pity.

Yes she is drinking more water but seems it is mostly when I give her water to drink and not drinking herself much from what I can see.

She does get outside in the sun with the others during the day - I think it also helps to keep her warm as she has lost a lot of muscle mass.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As was mentioned the bird needs the Metronidazole. 4 in 1's don't work. You can't always see canker in their throat. A few days of canker med don't work either. 
How can you watch the bird starve and not feed her the peas. Here is how to do that.

If you need to feed peas to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed.

Wouldn't hurt to treat for Cocci either. Cocci Med, you can give once, then again 10 days later.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

You said you put peas and corn in the cage. As mentioned, you may have to force feed them gently.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you keeping her warm at night as well? Try to get a heatpad for reptiles from a petshop, it works well. Just put layers of fabric on top cause it can get fairly hot over time and make sure there's space for her to move away if too hot.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Yes we keep her warm with an infra red light at night and for as long as it takes for her to start being active in the morning. She has space to move close to or further from the light as she needs.

A question re the Meditrich:
The info says: Metronidazole is not water soluable and causes severe regurgitation if dosed in its pure form - the unique "Medpet cellulose coating" of the Metronidazole tablet overcomes both these problems.

Most of the Medpet products say 1 tablet for a 400 - 500g bird. Flecky was 220g last week and probably less now. So then it seems she would need half a tablet BUT then cutting the tablet in half breaks this outer coating. Is that ok or is that a no-no??

Does it have to be fed on a full crop?? The Ronsec says that on the bottle and I don't yet have the Meditrich bottle to see if it says the same. I will get it today by l lunch time I hope..

I get the impression that the Ronsec (which I have) is a stronger med as it says for hyper-resistant Trich, so why then is the Metronidazole recommended?

re the peas - have just been reluctant as a previous bird we hand fed peas to when it was sick and not eating ended up regurging a few after a while and it wasn't a nice experience. But will try this morning. She ate brown rice again last night.

She seems to be doing a thing where she stretches her neck up a bit as if she is trying/struggling to swallow - its not when she is trying to eating. Sometimes after drinking water but even when she is resting under the light at night I saw her doing it last night. Hope the peas don't get stuck.

thanks for all the advice - really appreciate it.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

I did start giving her Nystacid again for the past 3 days re thrush when her poop starting smelling sour. We were given that initially from the vet but stopped when they changed the meds and gave anti-fungal to put into the water.

I do have Coximed - should I half the tablet re her now being half the bodyweight of a healthy pigeon?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

sunbirdy2 said:


> Yes we keep her warm with an infra red light at night and for as long as it takes for her to start being active in the morning. She has space to move close to or further from the light as she needs.
> 
> A question re the Meditrich:
> The info says: Metronidazole is not water soluable and causes severe regurgitation if dosed in its pure form - the unique "Medpet cellulose coating" of the Metronidazole tablet overcomes both these problems.
> ...


...............................


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The tablets are easy to cut with a sharp knife. You can cut one into smaller pieces and give her the right amount piece by piece deep down into her mouth.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

sunbirdy2 said:


> I did start giving her Nystacid again for the past 3 days re thrush when her poop starting smelling sour. We were given that initially from the vet but stopped when they changed the meds and gave anti-fungal to put into the water.
> 
> I do have Coximed - should I half the tablet re her now being half the bodyweight of a healthy pigeon?


I would just give the whole tablet. If you under-dose, it can help the cocci to build up a resistance to the drug. You're only giving it one time, and then once in ten days. Shouldn't hurt her. I wouldn't give it while giving the Metro. I usually give one Coximed, then the next day, treat for the 10 days with Metro, then give the other cocci.
But because it really seems to be canker, I would this time just treat for canker and wait on the Coximed.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

How old is this bird?
Does this bird have unlimited access to grit or pickstones?
And I wasn't clear on what the x-ray showed, was there a dark spot in the crop?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thank you Jr Brown. I either missed or forgot about the xray that was mentioned. So went back and looked. The spot in the crop could have been as simple as grit, or could have been something that would cause a blockage. Sometimes they eat some pretty surprising things, and it blocks off the crop so things don't pass through.
Maybe another xray to see what's going on with that. If there is something in there that is blocking, then formula would be better than the peas. The skins can get caught if it is being blocked off. Even baby food peas or cereal, or something without the skins. What did the vet think about the spot in the crop? Can you feel anything in there if you gently palpate the crop? Be careful though, as if it does have something in there, it could be something sharp. Don't want to cause her crop any damage.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies.

Straight after posting this morning, I called the Medpet office here is South Africa to ask them re the Meditrich tablets and halving them. The lady who answered didn't really know but gave me the name of a vet who knows their products. I called him and explained the gist of Flecky's story and asked him re the tablets. He said that they are basically Flagyl tablets and that I could try at my local chemist to see if he would sell me a tablet. The chemist could phone him for a script if he needed a script. He told me to get a 200mg tablet, and then 1/4 it so that I could give Fleck 50mg (half dose of Meditrich) today and then 50mg in 48 hours. And to wait until she had these before giving Coximed.

So for the moment she has now had 50mg metro ... and a few peas just now ( before I read the last post) to see what happens to them first. 

I have some handrearing soft food that we are using for a baby red eyed dove that was blown out of its nest last week and the parents didn't feed it again when we put it back - so I can try give Fleck some of that. She was eating cooked brown rice again today. I bought some oats to cook to try and see if she eat some of that raw or cooked - not sure if that's a good idea, but willing to try anything bland ( and softer than seed?) as that's what she seems to go for.

I'm not sure exactly how old Fleck is as she is one of a flock of ferals that arrived when we started feeding the doves here and that's was about 3 - 4 years ago. She was one of the main pairs - so not a young bird. I think they mostly feed around here, but as free agents they could be eating anything elsewhere.

The vet just said the x-ray wasn't really conclusive - no distinct metal showed and they were not 100% sure of what the darker area was - grit or not or something else, so they put her on the Sodium calcium edetate in case it was metal.

The last thing they had offered to do was a barium to see if there was a blockage, but when she looked so sick that day ( 23 nov) I took her in to decide about it (after eating linseed?) , in the end it was decided not to do it and to "let her be " as I think the vet thought she might slip away in the next day or so and had said that they could put her down which I chose not to do. But she improved some -perhaps the linseed that she had suddenly taken to that day was too rich and I never tried that again.

We haven't felt anything sharp in the crop - and she doesn't eat much so its not very full and she is obviously very thin.

The vet I spoke to today said her condition could be one of many things. She could even have a cancerous growth or something. It's a mystery to me and so disheartening that all the meds she was on initially never seemed to "cure" something so that it looked like she improved - it has just been an ongoing gradual decline. The vet said this was a complex case! - usually birds respond to treatment within a few days, and we have experienced some of those here too.

So here's hoping for some turning point for Fleck!!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

sunbirdy2 said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Straight after posting this morning, I called the Medpet office here is South Africa to ask them re the Meditrich tablets and halving them. The lady who answered didn't really know but gave me the name of a vet who knows their products. I called him and explained the gist of Flecky's story and asked him re the tablets. He said that they are basically Flagyl tablets and that I could try at my local chemist to see if he would sell me a tablet. The chemist could phone him for a script if he needed a script. He told me to get a 200mg tablet, and then 1/4 it so that I could give Fleck 50mg (half dose of Meditrich) today and then 50mg in 48 hours. And to wait until she had these before giving Coximed.
> 
> ...


...................................................


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hope Flecky is better soon. Sounds like you really want to help her. Would gently force feed peas or other food and see how she responds. We had our beloved Phoebe examined with barium repeatedly and it helped diagnose her problems which were internal growths. But it us an expensive stressful procedure.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Yesterday evening we gave Flecky some more peas and "popped" them out of their shells so it was just the inner softer bit. She wasn't so steady on her feet when we put her back in the cage for the night and near the heat but settled down. She didn't look as good as she was during the day or earlier on in the evening.

This morning she was still standing in her usual spot in the cage but she didn't look good at all. She was fed some more soft peas but was weaker on her legs. I placed her in a cardboard nest to rest and a bit later I took her outside in the sun. Her breathing was more laboured. 

So I took her on my lap and I could feel that her heartrate was higher and her breathing was still laboured. I supported her on my lap and sat with her with the other birds around, and within half an hour she slipped away.

So its been a rather teary sad day. I had always been hoping that somehow we would finally see a turn for the good.

I called the vet I had spoken to yesterday and told him as he had asked me to keep him informed, and I asked if it may have been the metro that was too much for her compromised system. He said his gut feel was that perhaps there was an internal growth - he would like to have seen her to have helped her but he's in another province so it had been impossible.

So I'll never know exactly what caused her to go down after (or during) raising her chics solo. She died about 3 months after her llongterm mate was taken by the falcon... and in some ways it seems that she lost the drive to live after she had completed her task of raising their last set of chics - as well as how that physically may have overtaxed her.

I do hope that they are reunited somewhere healthy, whole and happy together.......

Thanks to all of you who took the time to respond with your help and advice - I really appreciate it. I had wanted to ask for advice earlier in this journey after the vet visits but it was so crazy here with an abnormal increased menagerie of birds that needed care that I just never got to it. 
( including a concussed dove that flew into our window 4 weeks ago and is still recovering gradually, the red eyed dove chic who fell out of the nest last week, a 2 day old orphan baby guinea fowl we have fostered for the 5 weeks, another sick pigeon who recovered, some other pigeon chics that needed help, budgies that flew into my garden - and my one tortoise that has had a 2 month journey recovering from an abscess from a tortoise tick and needing an operation, antibio jabs and infection control baths ) 

Thanks again


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Such sad news, you've got me crying now. At least she was in good hands and dying on your lap with the other birds around must have given her some comfort. She was ready to join her partner. Keep up the good work that you are doing.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

So sad to read that you lost her after everything you did to make her well. She's flying free now with her mate and will never know illness again. God bless for all that you do for our feathered friends. x


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Losing her mate and raising babies alone would make her very stressed. This causes canker, which probably wasn't picked up, and which she probably wasn't treated for soon enough. The Metro wouldn't have killed her. Sorry she is gone.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am so very sorry for your loss of Flecky after you went above and beyond for her. Sounds like you have your hands full too with the birds and tortoise. Bless you for all you do for them all.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks for all your kind words. We buried Flecky in a little Garden of Remembrance we have here. 

If it was canker, then I don't know why it wasn't picked up on the crop smear on 18 Nov (3rd vet visit) - they just said it showed some thrush and so gave an anti-fungal med. That was a week after the first vet visit when they found malaria.

I had noticed Fleckys behavior had changed about 3 or so weeks prior to that: not her normal extrovert self in terms of not divebombing the door when I came out with seed, or the seed container when I was throwing seed out. I initially thought it was because we had put seed up for her and her chics and now that they were grown she didn't need to eat as much; sitting alone (I know her mate was gone) or away from the rest of the flock, not eating amongst the flock, not devouring all the usual seed/corn/peas, only eating smaller seed, trying to wait in a quieter place away from the others for food, walking away from the food I was giving her if any others came to eat it, hiding on the ground and not scattering with the flock when a goshawk came hunting - like she didn't have the capacity/strength to fly with the others etc . 

If canker was the cause of her being weak already in October , then how come it didn't appear on the crop smear on 18 Nov when it would have been more advanced by then? Could they have missed it? How else should it have been picked up?

Is there canker that is elsewhere in the body - not the crop or throat?

I would like to understand this to be better informed for the future.

Today a little young olive thrush without a tail (must have got taken out by a neighbours cat today ?) appeared at my back door - unable to fly. It actually hoped in through the gate into my kitchen as if asking for help! So another one in the menagerie to help till its ready to go. Never know what a day is going to hold with feathered friends around!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't know your vet, or if he could have missed something. They have been known to. But the canker could have come on later with all the other stresses she was under. It's just that it did look like it, and very often canker will follow other illness that stresses the bird.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Ok - thanks again for your replies Jay3- I appreciate it.

Just to clarify: can there be canker in a bird elsewhere - besides in the crop or throat?

thanks


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There are many articles out there on canker. Here's just one.

http://www.pigeonmania.com/trichomoniasis-canker-in-pigeons/

Just wanted to add that there are many articles on canker, and better to read several to get more info. Sometimes they will show some symptoms, and sometimes others. Don't always show all the symptoms they mention.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

http://www.nicefarming.com/pigeon-diseases-symptoms-and-treatment/

Here is another excellent article on canker, including internal canker affecting the organs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the link, but some of it wasn't exactly accurate. You really need to read many articles and take some from each I guess.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Thanks for the link, but some of it wasn't exactly accurate. You really need to read many articles and take some from each I guess.


What is the basis for your criticism of the article contained in that link. Can you be more specific? If you don't think it is accurate maybe you could write an article on the diagnosing and treatment of internal canker. I look forward to reading it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It says the disease affects most pigeons during their lifetime. They are I think, referring to the fact that most pigeons do carry trichomonads. But this isn't canker disease. Only when the birds are stressed, which brings the levels up, or if a new strain is passed through drinking water or seed, which they do not have immunity to, so that they get sick do they actually get canker. I don't believe that most even get it while being transported because they drink from the same water. I'm sure some do get it that way, as different lofts will carry different strains. And they do build an immunity to the strain in their own loft, but not a new strain from a different loft. But the simple stress from racing will often bring it on, as will stress from breeding, or crowding. Even the stress from another illness can often bring on canker.
Someone not knowing, and reading that article will think "Gee, it can't be canker my birds have, as they don't race and are not with other birds. Or there is no yellow stuff in the throat." 

They are saying that the most common form is distinguished for the yellow stuff in the throat, but often the bird doesn't have any yellow stuff in it's throat. This leads people to look at the throat, and believe that the bird doesn't have canker if they can't see it. For this reason, many birds are not treated in time. 

I just think they could have put more info into the article to let people know that many other things can cause it, and they don't always have the same symptoms. 

The article also states that pigeons that have the disease cannot swallow. That is only true if it is advanced, and blocking the throat. If the throat is sore, or because they are feeling ill, they may not want to eat. 

It's just that many people do come on here with sick birds, and you cannot convince them to treat for canker, because they have read simplified articles on canker, and are therefore convinced that their birds can't have it. And sometimes it's just very frustrating. 

So I think it better to read many articles on the different diseases, as you can often learn something different from each one.


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## sunbirdy2 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks for the canker article links Jay3 and JR Brown and for your "critique" Jay3. Appreciate it.


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