# sick feral homer



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hello,
I am new here - have been reading many of the posts on the forum - and would really appreciate your opinions, since so many of you are so very knowledgeable, experienced, kind and willing to help. I apologize for the overly long post and hope it doesn’t seem arrogant or gratuitous - it’s not just that I am not very good at condensing, but I also don’t want to leave out something potentially telling. Thank you in advance for your advice and your time.
This concerns a pigeon that I have been feeding since 2008 as part of my feral flock in NYC. He has been eating almost daily out of my hand at my window ledge. He’s a male racing homer – banded. About a year ago I caught him to remove thread on his feet and read his band. It's a 2007 band from Foy’s: IPB B 219. Did not contact Foy’s to seek owner since he has a mate and is well established with his flock, that he's been a part of since at least early 2008, which is when I fist saw him. 
One day in the mid Jan when I was feeding the pj's at my window, instead of taking off with the others when they all suddenly took off, he came into my living room. He had acted normally the previous days, and it was very cold, so I thought he just wants to warm himself. Sometimes some pj's do that. After a few hours I caught him and put him back out. He’s always been a reticent bird - usually eats and leaves, doesn't hang around. In the next few days, he didn’t come to eat – I could see him just lying on window ledges. I began regretting having put him out. Couple of days later, he came with the others & did exactly the same – did not take off, but in a panic came inside. I thought he must have had a close call with a hawk (there are so many around) and is traumatized, he seemed to be afraid of the open window. So anyway, the pigeon, which I’ve been calling Champion, settled right in in a corner of the room, very alert but calm. I brought him food and water. He immediately drank quite a lot, ate a little, looked perfectly normal, not ruffled or lethargic, the only thing that was off, was that I had noticed him sort of not walking right these past few days. He showed no desire to leave & a phobia of the open window. Over the next few days it became clear that his walking is getting worse. After reading a lot of information on the net, including this forum, I examined him and it seemed like a pretty typical case of salmonellosis. I started looking for help. I tried posting to this forum, but couldn’t, and neither could I get hold of the bird rehabbers. I had to find somebody to borrow money to take him to a vet as I’m currently unemployed. By the time I got an appointment with an avian vet, it was Tuesday January 24 – a full week since he had come in to stay. By then he could barely walk, was lying down all the time, couldn’t fly and was hardly eating, so I was handfeeding him. 
I saw an avian vet who sees pigeons. He said pigeon is in good condition in terms of body fat –he weighed 460. He sees no canker, the wing joint is inflamed and swollen. He said it’s salmonella, and prescribed a 14 day course of TMS suspension because they’ve been seeing a lot of resistance with Baytryl. 
I had also made an appointment at the NYC Wild Bird Fund, to see a rehabber - Gloria. I told her about my vet visit. She strongly disagreed about the TMS, and insisted on Baytril, saying they are not seeing resistance in ferals. She wanted to start him on Baytril right away with an injection. She seemed very knowledgeable so I consented. She gave me Baytril for 14 days, 2x day. She also gave Champion a shot of vitamin B and a drop of Metacam for the inflammation. She looked at his poop under a microscope and said it had yeast, so she also gave him Nystatin, which I was to give for 14 days 2 x day. She thought his crop was a bit full, as did the vet, but that was probably because I had just fed him before leaving. She also gave me Metacam – for 5 days and a daily B complex pill. She taught me how to administer the medicines into his crop and took an X-ray of his wing. Everything looked fine on the X-ray. 
He almost started improving the next day. Two days after his appointment he would get out of his cardboard house to go to his food, not very far, but still. Over the next few days his legs continued to improve, and by the end of the first week on antibiotics he was walking normally. He still couldn’t fly. Hated being given his meds, to which I also added cod liver oil every other day for a few days. Champion would start trembling whenever he’d see me, even if I only peered through the glass door of the room. My voice too would trigger a major trembling attack. He was never confined to a cage, but had a small cardboard box laying on it’s side – kind of like a dog house where he’d go to lie down. His wing was gradually improving. He couldn’t outstretch it, but was constantly trying. He became very lively and would call out to his mate constantly. Poor thing didn’t know that she had found someone else and was already sitting on eggs. Soon enough he regained his flying ability and would strut and coo on the window ledge all day for the pigeons, which were on the other side of the glass or screen. He was really, really ready and eager to leave. What bothered me was that even as he was rapidly improving in every other way, his droppings seemed to be getting worse and fewer and he simply wasn’t eating as much as he should. Actually, when he first came in, before his treatment, his droppings looked a lot better, much firmer. Now they were green and watery. His appetite had not improved to normal levels, and I was afraid he was loosing weight. He was totally obsessed with the other pigeons, and with getting out, & I have seen males loose interest in food when it is the courting season, so it didn’t bother me that much. I was afraid that the antibiotics were wrecking havoc on his gut, so I stopped them one day earlier than prescribed – he was on them for 13 instead of 14 days. I gave him probiotics instead on the 14th day as well as on the following day. 
On day 15, I took him back to the rehabber. She checked his wing which had a just little bit of swelling left, and he now weighed 440 instead of the 460 of two weeks ago. She said that he is ready for release, and that I should let him go and not stress him further. She gave me one pill Avertex for coccidia and 1/4 pill Drontal for worms. She also looked at some poop under the microscope and said his gut flora looks fine. 
I released him that very day hoping that he would still come to eat at the window, but not really expecting him to after all the torture that he suffered at my hands. I watched him all day, and he didn’t do much besides call to his mate, who couldn’t care less about him. 
He came the following morning with the other pj's and ate out of my hand, but again quite little. The following day, he not only came to eat, but came inside, ran to his food, took a few pecks, drank and immediately went to his cardboard house. He stayed for a few hours and left at dusk to sleep on one of the window ledges nearby. He has been doing this ever since his release, every day without fail, he comes in, stays sometimes a few hours, sometimes the whole day and leaves at dusk. This gives me an opportunity to monitor his poop and his food intake, and both really worry me, and are the reason I am writing. Last Sunday, when he came in I gave him the Avertex & Drontal, Prime vitamins, and probiotic. I took pictures of his poop which had bubbles in it. On Tuesday Feb 14 – one week after his release - I took him back to Gloria. I was worried about canker. She looked at his throat, said she saw nothing, palpated his crop, and felt nothing. Did a crop swab for yeast, said there was none, but didn’t look for canker. Gave him one Spartrix pill. She also gave him a shot of Reglan (I don’t know why since his crop was empty), a shot of vitamin B, and an iron shot for anemia, as said he looked pale around the mouth, and also gave me quinine for Malaria – for 7 days. She really didn't know what was going on but said that maybe we discontinued the antibiotic too soon, so she recommended to continue Baytril for another week, and give Nystatin for a week. She looked at his droppings under the microscope, and said there was yeast in his intestines and there are no negative bacteria. I asked shouldn’t we try the TMS as it seems to throw a wider net, but she said no, since he had responded so well to the Baytryl. 

So far I haven’t given him any of the medications she suggested on the last visit and *my questions are:* 

-	since he was on Baytril and Nystatin while this intestinal thing was getting worse, why go back to the same meds. 
-	Could this be coccidia, canker? 
-	Is the Nystatin going to help for yeast that’s in the intestines. 
-	What do you think of the Malaria suggestion – in NYC in the winter? 
-	I now notice him swallowing repeatedly, especially after he eats but not only, not adjusting his crop, just swallowing. Yesterday he sneezed once and today he also sneezed once or twice. Should I be worried? 
-	He seems to run to the food with appetite, but then he doesn’t eat a lot. He picks out his favorite – but still just a few sunflower seeds and peanuts. Could he have some kind of blockage? 
-	His behavior is almost normal – since I released him Feb 7th I have seen him strutting about, mating with one female who came to him! But sometimes when the whole flock takes off as one, he stays behind, and sometimes comes inside instead. What does it mean when it’s a sunny day to come inside and sit in a semi-dark cardboard box or room? Is this a sign of a bird feeling unwell or is this just something that homing pigeons do – come back to the place where they’ve spent three weeks.

Thanks for any and all feedback, or for just taking the time to read through all this.

Will post pictures of bird and poop tonight as soon as I figure out how.

Eva


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

Welcome to PT Eva, I think what you have done for the bird is great. I think he is calling your home his. I believe the bird will be fine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think it's wonderful how you have cared for him. He's one lucky bird to have found you. Definitely give him the Nystatin if he has yeast. And I would probably go back to the Baytril as well. It is possible that you just didn't treat long enough, as sometimes it does take longer. Funny how he keeps coming back in like that. Being a homer, he is probably seeing your place as home, especially if he's not feeling well. That would come from his being raised in a loft. He sees it as a safe place to be. You are doing a really great job with him.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Dear Jay3 and Orock,

Thank you for the welcome and the encouraging words. 

I really hope the bird does well - he's incredibly intelligent, and I am simply blown away that after all the chasing and catching and pouring of meds down his throat, not to mention vet visits with injections and swabs etc., he still comes back day after day - today was the eleventh day. 

I will take your advice and treat him with the Baytril and Nystatin, though I don't think he'll appreciate being detained for a week at the height of courting season. 

I'd really appreciate your opinion of the poop pictures (sorry there are so many) and if you think they may be indicative of anything specific. I really think he eats very little, and so often his droppings are just this mucousy puddles with little solid matter in them. I recently got a digital kitchen scale, so perhaps that will give me a more objective picture of whats going on. I am worried about canker, as he seems to swallow so much. I watched him this morning with my binoculars swallowing constantly and kind of sitting upright in what could be what I've read on this forum to be referred to as the the penguin posture, but I can't be sure he was far away. I'll check to see if he has mucous in his throat. I do have Flagyl tablets on hand, but I'll wait to see what others here think.

Many thanks,

Eva


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

More poop pics...


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

And a couple of the poop monger himself.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For one thing those poops show that he isn't eating. You are going to have to get food into him. 
Maybe pop frozen defrosted and warmed peas. Do you know how to do that?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

He came again today. I checked his mouth and saw a whitish deposit/nodule in his throat that was not there before - I am pretty sure canker, it looks very typical, so I started treating him with Flagyl. I also started the Baytril and Nystatin and fed him defrosted peas and corn. Should I switch to pedialite instead of water for a couple of days. He does drink on his own, but eats ever so little. How long do you think I should treat with the Flagyl - 7 days? 

According to my scale he has not lost weight, which I don't believe because I feel his breast bone getting sharper.

Anyway, I didn't let him go back out - he was not happy, but I suppose he'll have to be grounded until treatment is completed.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Couple more questions....

How should I space the food and the meds? Would it be better to give him his meds on an empty crop, wait an hour or so and then feed, or vice verse, first food, break, and then meds. Least stressful for him would be to give food and medications together, so that I don't have to catch him more than 2-3 times a day. 
With canker, is it OK to feed defrosted corn and peas till he starts eating more substantially, or should I do Exact formula. I had tried that earlier, but when it comes to hand feeding he really prefers the corn and peas and grains, and with the formula I am also afraid of dislodging something in his throat. 

I'm really sorry about all these questions. 
Thanks for the help.

Eva


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva,
The whiteish deposits could be due to the yeast that Gloria diagnosed via her tests. Yeast can take a while to clear up; its around 14 days normally when treating with Nilstat, but since antibiotics facilitate yeast growth you might need longer.

I have a new rescue with me now with a massive yeast infection and Avian pox. There is a lot of mucous and white plaque all through its throat, right up to the tip of its beak internally. Its droppings look very similar to the ones you posted. Some of its droppings are `gooey' and have been hanging in a large blob around the vent.

From experiences I've had this past year, its ok to treat with antibiotics for salmonella and canker, as well as Nilstat. But you need to monitor the yeast. You can give around 0.5ml of Nilstat twice per day if the yeast is bad, or move onto fluconazole if its not clearing up with Nilstat.

Regarding feeding, I have successfully used soaked cat kibble pieces (10 pieces, every 3-4 hours) or dog `sausage' pieces (refrigerated dog food) for up to two weeks, to get them over the hump where they couldn't digest seed. Its is easily digested and doesn't seem to promote yeast growth like formula can. Its very easy to feed like this too.

PS. He's really a beautiful bird, and i love the pic of the other ones too! .


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

Well today when I checked this throat, the whitish nodule is no linger there!? What could this have been that is there one day and gone the next. Only 17 hours had passed between seeing the whitish lesion and giving him the Baytril, Nystatin, and Flagyl and it being gone. It can't be the meds, right?

He doesn't seem to have problems digesting seeds because he eats a little on his own, but definitely needs supplementing. 

With the yeast and the Nystatin what bothers me is that when he was recovering from Parathyphoid, he was on Nystatin throughout the time that he was taking antibiotic, and yet the droppings were looking worse and worse. They actually looked a lot better even at the height of his illness before I had started treatment. At the time he was on Nystatin 1ml twice a day, whereas now Gloria told me to give 1ml once a day. 

I have another question:
9 days ago he had a pill of Avertex (Diclazuril 5mg) for coccidia and 1/4 pill Drontal (praziquantel/pyrantel pamoate/febantelfor) for worming. 10 days after the first pill for Avertex and 14 days for Drontal a second pill is supposed to be given. Considering that he is already on 3 medications, should I give those too or skip them. 

Thanks for all your help and useful suggestions, Bella.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Hopefully someone else will give you the answer on mixing the medications. One thing I want to add is that he will need a vitamin probiotic when finished with the medications. The medications kill or unbalance the natural "good bacteria" in their guts (which will also mess up their poops a bit), so when finished and cured they need to get their natural gut flora back up to par. 
Make sure you are getting plenty of food into him if he is not eating well enough (yet) on his own. Paratyphoid is a pain......just went through it with our little group of captives.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

> Well today when I checked this throat, the whitish nodule is no linger there!? What could this have been that is there one day and gone the next. Only 17 hours had passed between seeing the whitish lesion and giving him the Baytril, Nystatin, and Flagyl and it being gone. It can't be the meds, right?


I see now, yes you're right, it does sound a bit more like canker, from the rapid disappearance of the white lesion you're describing. I haven't seen this personally, but other members have described canker lesions as sometimes being flat , white growths in the mouth whereas I've only ever seen canker in the form of the large , yellow `cheesey' growths right in the back of the throat (and sometimes externally). You might have these flat & white type of canker lesions, and they are responding to the Flagyl?




> With the yeast and the Nystatin what bothers me is that when he was recovering from Parathyphoid, he was on Nystatin throughout the time that he was taking antibiotic, and yet the droppings were looking worse and worse. They actually looked a lot better even at the height of his illness before I had started treatment. At the time he was on Nystatin 1ml twice a day, whereas now Gloria told me to give 1ml once a day.


I see where you're coming from now; it sounds like you did everything right during the first med regime, in terms of yeast prevention.

If I have the story straight in my head, You've treated for paratyphoid, yeast, coccidia, & worms, and around 7 days ago you treated for canker with Spartrix? And now you're using flagyl for the canker?

This is a quite a tricky situation, because normally after a good med regime like yours, you would expect the bird to be on the mend and the droppings looking good. So I appreciate your concerns . 

If it were me, first I would wait a bit longer to see how well he responds to the Flagyl. If nothing changes after 5 days , probably the first med I would change then would be the antibiotic. Baytril is an excellent antibiotic ,and the right medicine for Paratyphoid, but its fairly ineffective against some other bacterial infections such as strep, respiratory illness, and some strains of ecoli, which could also be affecting your pigeon . Sometimes what works for me in this situation is trying something from the tetracycline or penicillin families of antibiotics. Can you get anything like Amoxicillin or doxycycline to try?

The only other thing I can think of is you may have something viral going on, which can also cause the droppings to stay wet during the course of the illness.



> I have another question:
> 9 days ago he had a pill of Avertex (Diclazuril 5mg) for coccidia and 1/4 pill Drontal (praziquantel/pyrantel pamoate/febantelfor) for worming. 10 days after the first pill for Avertex and 14 days for Drontal a second pill is supposed to be given. Considering that he is already on 3 medications, should I give those too or skip them.


You should be ok so long as you don't give all the meds at exactly the same time, otherwise, yes, I think you pigeon would probably regurgitate.

Anyway hope that helps, i have had experiences like thsi before and i understand how frustrating they can be.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks Woodnative.

I did give give him human probiotics after the last round of antibiotics, but for only a few days, so maybe that wasn't long enough. I also gave him Prime avian vitamins for a few days after treatment. I didn't do the vitamins during the treatment because I was afraid the calcium in them might bind the antibiotic. I don't know if Baytril is one of those...

If you have a recommendation for a good pigeon probiotic, it would be great if you can share.

Bella,

Thanks for addressing all my concerns. 
I'm taking him to see Gloria tomorrow, and will ask about the Fluconazole. Strangely enough, the last time I saw her, she did a crop swab, but did not see any yeast. She saw yeast only in his poop. I'll ask about changing the antibiotic too. It seemingly did great for the salmonella, but I'm sure there's more going on here. 

He had only one pill of Spartix 7 days ago, so maybe that just slowed things down, if canker is indeed what he has. I really don't know. I'm so inexperienced with any of this, I've just been reading everything I can find on pigeon diseases and this forum has been such a blessing. I had a feral pet pigeon that I brought up from a youngster, who never had any issues during his short life, so I've remained woefully uneducated about what can afflict them. I lost him to a hawk when he was 2 years old. It was devastating, and since then I've tried to keep my distance by just feeding feral pidgies, removing thread, things like that- not taking on any committments. But this bird just came to me himself. I really don't want to drop the ball on him.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear that you lost your first pet pigeon, that must have been very painful for you after having raised him  

You are doing really great with this one, he's so lucky to have you. The combination of meds you have been using are all good IMO; they cast a wide net & address most common illnesses that pigeons get. Its just tricky with Wild pigeons because they often have several ailments at once by the time you get to them to help.

I agree that there's probably something else going on aside from the Salmonella. Its very possible that the main secondary problem is canker, and that the strain is either resistant to Spartrix, or the canker is quite bad and needed a longer course of treatment, which is what you have started. If this is the case, you should see some improvement to the droppings after a couple of days on Flagyl, or earlier.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear nycpigeonlady,

I was just reading through your original post again, about Champion and his history as a stray racing pigeon who has established himself with your local flock. I think he's a pretty amazing bird. Its not so easy for a racing pigeon to figure out how to survive in the wild when they've been raised in lofts on pigeon seed. Most of them die when they get lost because they already so depleted and don't have time to learn anything new. Have you ever thought of keeping him? It seems that he really likes you and needs you, and there's something special about him.

I came across a stray racing pigeon like him last year, only his injuries were much worse - he had bad injuries to his wing, blood everywhere, deep gauges into his flesh etc. He arrived at my back deck one day, totally depleted, his droppings were just bright yellow froth which is BAD. I discovered from his bands that he had travelled 1800 Kms off course from a race he'd been in, which is unbelievable for a racing pigeon...thats about as far as they can fly. I named him `Battle Pigeon' lol (I might have named him champion if id thought of it though- thats a good name)

I was impressed & also touched by what he'd been through, what he was able to survive, and that he somehow found me. That made me feel very protective & I decided to keep him. He was my very first pet pigeon. I gave him a nice mate from my feral flock and he loves her to bits. he's also the only one of my birds that I fly and know he'll always come back to me, even though he's a trained homer....we somehow have this close bond, and he knows I love him.

Sorry to get long winded, but I did have a point- my Battle Pigeon had never had droppings that are quite right since then. I've had him on every drug available but his droppings are rarely perfect. When I've asked about it, people have told me that after a major trauma, some pigeons never have perfect droppings again and there's nothign you can do.

Anyway, I hope your Champion gets better soon. He is very handsome.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Oh Bella, 

Sorry for not responding to your post. Yesterday was such a terrible day - when giving Champion his medicine and some water I aspirated him and really freaked out. His was making these slurpy sounds and then was open mouth breathing. I started reading online and freaking out about aspiration pneumonia. What a horrible thing - to want to help and to end up causing harm instead. So I took him to Gloria today (he's was not open mouth breathing today) armed with a bunch of printouts from PT, asking for doxycyclline and nebulized treatment with Baytryl, but although she did give me chlortetracycline for 10 days, said his lungs sound clear and with pneumonia you should be able to hear it. I am afraid that perhaps it hasn't turned to pneumonia yet, but will soon. What a nightmare - to add another medication on top, for something I myself caused him. I feel really guilty and distressed. 

She tested his poop and said there was no yeast. She also said it's normal for his appetite to be off because of the antibiotics, but it was off even before that. She gave him an injection of Vitamin B and that always really perks him up and gives him some appetite. So let's see how he does. He's really distressed I'm not letting him leave, and looks at me as if to say "what happened, we had a deal?" He doesn't appreciate being caught 3 times a days. But I have to feed him as well as medicate him.

His poops are all over the map. He would make one that looks much much better, and then a hour later something that's just horrid - just plain water with a bit of green mush. I am really at a loss, but at least some of the ones he's producing look better, for whatever that's worth. I guess I need to read up on what polyuria may mean.

What you say about the poops sometimes never coming back to normal after a major trauma sounds very plausible. I had read somewhere that some pigeons who go through parathyphoid have watery poop for the rest of their lives just because their intestines have been permanently damaged by the disease. If it was only the consistency of the droppings, and everything else looked fine, I probably wouldn't be too worried. The problem is he is eating very very little. He also stays behind when all the other pigeons take off - something that is not a good sigh and certainly not something he has done before.

Sorry to ramble on and on like this...

The story of Battle Pigeon is amazing -1800 km! Honestly I didn't even know that was possible. You certainly have a champion there, and what a survivor.
I read on one of the posts today that homers have only a 40 -60 chance of making it in the feral world. Your bird certainly would have perished without you. What a lucky guy he is.

I would love to keep Champion as a pet, but he is very well adjusted to his life with the other pigeons and wouldn't be happy to be only inside. But my apartment is always open to him, whenever he wants to come or go, or needs help, I'll be there for him. He's a very gentle bird, and used to eating only out of my hand, but at the same time he's very reserved, not like some of my other pigeons who don't mind being petted. He behaves like an aristocrat among plebeians. He really doesn't like being crowded by the other pigeons and if that happens will leave and wait for them to finish and then come back to eat. Although he towers over everybody I never see him pick on anybody. Ironic really, that his wife of three years (she's the speckled white and black pigeon in the picture) left him to become the second wife of the bully of the flock. Champion's a fantastic dad too, maybe a little too much - he begins to look really beat up from taking care of his young.

Anyway Bella, it's good they have a character count restriction when posting for people like me or I'd still be going on. It's just it's so nice to share with people who also love pigeons. It's not something I can share with most of my friends.

A good night to you and your pidgies. I hope they stay happy and healthy and those who are sick recover soon

Eva


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Aspiration Pneumonia - Please help!!*

Well the worst has happened! 

The pigeon definitely has developed aspiration pneumonia from aspiring water on Monday. I am sure of it because today when I was attempting to catch him to give him his medication, he was flying around (he's not in a cage) and stopping to open mouth breathe and I could definitely hear his breathing. My God, I can believe I've caused him this myself! 

Yesterday he was given Chlortetracycline in addition to the Baytryl he was already on. I went to the rehabber asking for Doxycycline, because that's what I've read on this site is good for pneumonia. She didn't know if Doxy could be combined with Baytril, even though I told her it could, and after checking gave me Chlortetracycline. Is this antibiotic as effective as Doxy, or should I ask my sister to prescribe me some Doxycycline and switch him myself. Also, should I take him back to her tomorrow and beg for nebulized treatments - she didn't think they were needed yesterday and didn't agree to do them.

Please advise - I am really lost and feel terrible about what has happened.

Eva


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

is there a vet you have a relationship with? if so I would take him.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva,

I'm so sorry to hear this news, how frightening for you! You might get some better responses if you start a new thread with `Apsiration Pneumonia' in the title. I have never experienced this so my knowledge is from reading, rather than personal experiences.

To answer some of your questions:

Yes, Doxycycline is regarded as the `better' tetracycline medicine for respiratory illness, and you can use it with Baytril (not at the same time, but different times of day). Amoxicillin (or augmentin) is usually regarded as better again for pneumonia (but you can't use this with Baytril or other antibiotics). But it all comes down to what specific bacteria is present. Only vet culture tests can tell you that.

Fungal infections can set in after aspiration. I would try to get some fluconazole, as Nilstat will not help with this.

If he starts to have breathing difficulties, you can put him in a steamy room.

Finally, I have a few general queries: Are you still treating him for canker with Flagyl? There is slight possibility that you haven't aspirated him, but rather a canker nodule has become dislodged somewhere in the respiratory system and/or is dissolving producing mucous etc. It can happen. In any case, keep treating him for the canker.

How are you administering the meds? Are you using a small syringe or something else? I use 1 ml syringes and hold the birds head vertical, with beak open. I place the syringe deep into the back of the throat, and aim for the back of the throat & to one side, past the opening of the airway. Do you need some help with identifying parts of the bird's mouth, or are you all ok with that?

Can you get hold of a ginea pig cage or similar for the duration of his treatment? He'll get used to it; this is to reduce stress.

Hugs to you!


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't really have a relationship with a vet nor do I have money to take him. I guess I could borrow some as I did the first time, but that will take a few days. 

The first time I took him to see an avian vet who prescribed TMS suspension for his parathypoid. I was supposed to give it to him for two weeks and then check back with the vet for a follow up. I never did however because that same day l also took him to a bird rehabber who deals mostly with pigeons and started following her treatment regimen instead. But I guess I could go back to the same vet. He has 15 pet birds(although not pigeons), and is Diplomate ABVP (Avian), and has a bunch of bird related distinctions for whatever that's worth. 

Or maybe one of the New York members can suggest a vet good with pigeons...

Thanks.

Eva


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella, 
As always, thank you for the support.

I am administering the meds in exactly the way that you described, I don't know how I managed to screw up. 

I am still treating him for canker with Flagy, but this is definitely due to what I did, because it happened right there and then, I could see it. His throat looks clear and there is no mucous. He is not open mouth breathing when he is at rest, only if he has been flying trying to escape from me, so obviously I want him to stay as quiet as possible. I bought a cage - it's a finch flight cage that's 30L x 18W x 18 H and put him in there but he became extremely agitated, flying up against the wire and was not calming down at all. I didn't want to worsen his breathing so I let him out again. 
I was thinking of taking him to Gloria tomorrow again, and asking her to admit him - that way they can treat with injectable antibiotics and nebulizing treatments. Or maybe I should just borrow money and take him to a vet. 

Well, I need to go run some errands. Hopefully, later there will be suggestions for a good pigeon vet from some of the NYC based members.

Hugs,
Eva


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't know exactly where these places are from you, but they may be able to steer you in the direction of someone closer to you.


Fairport Animal Hospital
117 North Main Street
Fairport, New York
585-388-1070
www.fairportanimalhospital.com

Leland Brun
Honeoye Falls, New York
585-624-2861

The Wild Bird Fund, Inc.
c/o Animal General
558 Columbus Ave
New York, NY 10024
646-306-2862
Animal General is located on the northwest corner of Columbus and West 87th Street
http://www.wildbirdfund.com/

Second Chance Wildlife Rehabilitation Network
Gabriele Whitman
Sterling, New York
315-754-6208


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,
Thanks for answering my questions and giving me a better picture of things.

Pretty much all wild pigeons flap around in the cage and try to climb it at first; this used to put me off caging them too. But the stress of trying to catch a free roaming pigeon several times day is worse for them when they are sick, I feel. He may need a long course of antibiotics so the ordeal can get tiring for both of you. He will calm down in a cage within a day or so, especially since he was raised in captivity; he will even become possessive of it once he gets used to the food and water and safety there Anyway its up to you of course, but I just wanted to let you know I understand how you feel, and how I overcame the same obstacle. Also, I know he is your wild friend and there's always a fear of damaging the relationship, but all my rescues still come back and like me more than ever after being caged and messed with when they were sick, even if they didn't like what I did at the time.

Please keep us updated!


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Update*

I took Champion to Dr. Pilny at the Center for Avian and Exotic Medicine this morning - the avian vet who first saw him for parathyphoid.

He listened to his chest for a long time very intently and said it sounded clear. I told him that he only open mouth breathes after flying around, and not at other times. He said if it's only exercise induced and he can't hear anything - it must be mild, and obviously to keep him from exercising. He did switch him over to doxycycline from the chlortetracycline for two weeks. I brought up the Fluconazole as per Bella's recommendation, but he didn't think he needs it, at least for now. He said to bring him back to X-ray for respiratory lesions if he's not better in two weeks or is getting worse in the meantime. He also recommended to keep up the Flagyl for 2 more days for a total of 7 days, and to keep up the Baytril for 5 more days for a total of 10 days.

Is 14 days of Doxy really enough for pneumonia? He seems to think so.
I asked him about giving him nebulization treatments but he said he doesn't need them.

He has lost 19 grams since his prior exam a month ago, but according to the vet he has a lot of muscle and is very athletic. I've been hand feeding him defrosted corn and peas for days now, so I'd really appreciate any ideas on what I can feed him to include a wider variety of nutrients. I'm staying away from formula seeing how inept I am at these things. And anyway, it has calcium which binds the antibiotic he's on. Is there some recipe for making some kind of pea-sized balls that I can feed him. 

Jay3, 
thanks for your research and information on vet practices near New York. Actually all the places except for the Wild Bird Fund, are very far from the city and I don't drive. But the Wild Bird Fund is the place that I have been taking him to, and as in New York City most wild birds are pigeons, the rehabbers seem very experienced. Still, I badly needed a second opinion in this case even if just for my own comfort. 

Bella, 
Thank for your advice on the cage. It's good to hear that the birds don't loose their trust and still come back after everything they've been though. You seem to understand exactly how I feel, having yourself been there. The first time I released Champion was right after a vet visit - the same day in fact. I didn't think I'd ever see him again and was shocked when he came back and came back in the very next day. But, now I figured out a system of catching him so that he does not try to fly away. I simply let the shades down when it's time for capture and approach him very slowly talking to him, and he's fine. For now anyway - in time, he'll probably figure out a way to fly in semi-darkness and then it will have to be cage time. I put a humidifier in his room as you suggested to help his lungs. 

He otherwise looks good, although he's not eating much. There seem to be a lot of white down feathers around. Could this be stress related or is just from normal preening? The droppings while far from perfect have generally improved - there are rarely puddles of water anymore. The one weird thing though that I noticed today and yesterday, was very yellow almost orange yellow urates on a single dropping on both days. Will have to read up on what that might mean. I was hoping it's the chlortetracycline, but who knows. 

Thank you all for the concern and support. Will keep you updated on his progress.

Eva


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva, Thanks for the hopeful update; its so awesome that you were able to afford to see an Avian Vet.



> He did switch him over to doxycycline from the chlortetracycline for two weeks. I brought up the Fluconazole as per Bella's recommendation, but he didn't think he needs it, at least for now. He said to bring him back to X-ray for respiratory lesions if he's not better in two weeks or is getting worse in the meantime. He also recommended to keep up the Flagyl for 2 more days for a total of 7 days, and to keep up the Baytril for 5 more days for a total of 10 days.



That's sounds good Eva. It encouraging that he couldn't hear any rattling and he seems to think this is not severe. What a relief.



> Is 14 days of Doxy really enough for pneumonia? He seems to think so.
> I asked him about giving him nebulization treatments but he said he doesn't need them.


The Vet must think its enough for very mild pneumonia that has been caught nice and early, like you have done with Champion...its so good that you got him to vet quickly.



> I've been hand feeding him defrosted corn and peas for days now, so I'd really appreciate any ideas on what I can feed him to include a wider variety of nutrients. I'm staying away from formula seeing how inept I am at these things. And anyway, it has calcium which binds the antibiotic he's on. Is there some recipe for making some kind of pea-sized balls that I can feed him.


This may not work for you, but I use a kind of refrigerated `all natural' dog food that looks like packaged devon or salami- do you know what I mean? I don't know what to call it other than `dog sausage'. I cut it up into little pieces about the size of peas, then sit the pieces in hot water to heat them up. I feed about 10 pieces per sitting. The reason I started using this , aside from the ingredients which are suitable for feeding pigeons- vegetables, grains, the right amount of protein, vitamins-is I could calculate the exact calorie information and therefore not risk underfeeding or overfeeding. I aim for about 40 calories per day for a very sick bird based on soem calculations Pidgey did for me. Also, some of my patients with canker can't digest seed or large pieces of corn and peas, but they can digest the dog sausage just fine. I got the idea from some people on this forum who feed sick pigeon purina puppy chow , which I can't get here.



> But, now I figured out a system of catching him so that he does not try to fly away. I simply let the shades down when it's time for capture and approach him very slowly talking to him, and he's fine. For now anyway - in time, he'll probably figure out a way to fly in semi-darkness and then it will have to be cage time. I put a humidifier in his room as you suggested to help his lungs.



That's really good idea! I'm sure he appreciates being free.



> The one weird thing though that I noticed today and yesterday, was very yellow almost orange yellow urates on a single dropping on both days. Will have to read up on what that might mean. I was hoping it's the chlortetracycline, but who knows.


Yes, the medicine can do that, especially Nilstat. Is he still getting that? The chlortetracycline i have now is a white powder, but I've had some tetracycline powders that are yellow- what colour is yours?



> Thank you all for the concern and support. Will keep you updated on his progress.


Thank you Eva, I'd love to hear how he goes over the next few days and how the doxycycline and flagyl are working.

X Bella


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

I wanted to update you on how Champion is doing...but I don't really know any more. I really worry about him.

He preens but doesn't coo and coocooroo as much, and really desperately wants to get out - what else is a pigeon to do in confinement. My new system with catching him in low light is working only too well, because now I have no idea how his breathing is after flying. I am tempted to get him to fly a bit to see, but I don't want to stress him. If I'm going to do that I'll wait at least a few more days. When he makes short flights, i.e. from floor to table, he breathes fine.

His appetite is just the same, almost non-existent. The vet said that would be normal with the medications he' s taking, and it would be normal to have low appetite even for a couple of weeks after he stops taking meds, but that's not the impression I've been getting from reading other people's posts, so that worries me. 

The other thing that really worries me are his poops. I read up on yellow urates, and apart from canker, it seems to be an indication of liver trouble. They were always nice and white until this past Tuesday - three days after I added the Flagyl. In other words I don't think it's from canker. The first yellow urate I saw was the day I added Chlortetracycline. The one I'm using comes in a capsule so I'm not sure what color that is, but probably white like the powder you've been using. And anyway he's been off of that antibiotic now for two days and I'm seeing only yellow urates in his droppings at this point. I don't believe it's the Nystatin - although you are absolutely right, the solution is yellow and a logical culprit - but he's been on it before for two weeks and his urates were always white. I mentioned this to the vet when I was there, but he simply didn't address it. I should have pressed him on it but I hadn't done my research at the time. So now I feel really stressed because I cannot borrow any more money and go to the vet and I'll have to rely on the expertize of the wild bird rehabbers.

Thanks for the dog food suggestion. I haven't had a dog since coming to this country - I am originally from Bulgaria, where there wasn't specialized dog food, we just fed our dogs meat and vegetables - but I'll take your description to a dog food store, where I'm sure they'll know what you are talking about. 40 calories a day is a good guideline to have - I'll aim for that.

I hope all your little charges are doing well, and as always, thanks for being there for me and Champion.

Eva


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a recipe for kaytee balls from another old thread. 

", if you get some Kaytee hand feeding formula and mix a few tablespoons of it with a 1/2 teaspoon of olive oil and the slowly add a bit of water at a time until it is to a pie-dough consistency, you can then roll very small pieces of this into small balls the size of the peas you have been feeding and "pop" them like in the video clip. There will be much more nutrition and calories in these, just make sure he gets enough tepid water to break down the balls to move them through his crop, this is a way to get more calories into him, and is a way around tube feeding for people who are nervous about doing this. Feed about 15-20 balls at a time, letting his crop empty, as often as often as he can take feedings to get some weight back on him."


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks Spirit Wings,

I do have Kaytee Exact, and was thinking about doing that, but since he's on Doxycycline currently, I wasn't sure if that would be OK. 

Do you think the calcium in the formula is not enough to bind to the antibiotic and reduce it's effectiveness?

Eva


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Thanks Spirit Wings,
> 
> I do have Kaytee Exact, and was thinking about doing that, but since he's on Doxycycline currently, I wasn't sure if that would be OK.
> 
> ...


I don't know, what is her infection? which does she need more..the med or the nutrients. a few balls may not make a difference, fed with the other peas and corn.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

He is on Doxycycline for pneumonia, so that's really crucial.

He's also on Flagyl, Baytril and Nystatin for a few more days, although he has no definite diagnosis. 

The vet seems to think that his weight in not a problem at this point. He is 440, down from 460 a month ago. This may seem a lot for a feral, but he's a male homer feral.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

that is allot of meds. I would be careful you do not over medicate.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

I agree that some of what you're observing could be side effects of the medicine, combined with illness & diet. Hopefully these issues will resolve when the meds are finished & he's eating again. 

I've never fed a sick pigeon peas and corn, so I'm not really sure what you should expect there, in terms of droppings. But I do get quite a difference in the appearance and quality of droppings according to what food I am giving them when they are ill. For example, most of my rescues with canker and enteritis will have more solid looking droppings when fed high protein food in the initial stages (eg soaked cat kibble), and then become wetter when I switch to lower protein diet.

It seems to me that you're doing everything possible, considering the Vet didn't perform any tests to tell you what is wrong exactly. 

The only other suggestion I have is to try offering him a bowl of small seeds (budgie/canary seed mix) with sunflower Kernels (if you're not already). I was told not to feed big seeds to sick pigeons.

Good luck and please keep us updated!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have often feed defrosted peas to sick pigeons, and their droppings look fine.
I would stay away from formula with any calcium in it. Even a little will bind with the Doxy and hinder it's working.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

Any updates on Champion yet? I'd love to hear how you're both going...


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Dear Bella, 

Thanks for asking after us.

I don’t know what to tell you about Champion. He still has 4 days left on Doxycycline and Nystatin. He looks good – he’s very active, his behavior seems totally normal, except that he’s not eating on his own. When he sees and hears the other pigeons eating, he’ll pick a few seeds as if out of habit, but then drop them, obviously not feeling like eating. 

Because of the antibiotic, I don’t feed him any of the dog foods (although I can get Purina puppy chow) – since they all have added calcium. However I got a coffee grinder and make a mixture of 20 different grains, which I then knead with water into pea sized balls, and feed him those. 

I’d really like to get much more food into him, but have heard that I should only feed him as often as his crop empties. I’m not sure what normal crop emptying time should be, but and it seems to me his crop empties much too slowly. I feed him about 30 balls (16 grams) at 8 am, and by 4pm his crop is still not completely empty, but then I feed him about 15 -20 balls again anyway. He’s maintaining his weight, but not gaining much. 

His droppings look tiny, (and it seems there should be more of them, even with this little food) and although they are not as bright green as before and there no big puddles of liquid, they are not super solid either. 
The urates are slimy and anything but white, more like yellow to orange. I believe this is a very worrisome sign. Could it be his kidneys, his liver? I just don’t know what else to do. 

This past Tuesday he finished 10 days of Baytryl, and four days prior to that - he finished 6 days of Flagyl at 60 mg a day - a pretty high dose. 
Could this be internal canker, and is there a definitive test for that that a vet can perform? Don’t they have a way of looking into the crop with some kind of scope, like a human endoscopy? And if it is in the liver, can that be detected somehow. Is a blood test the way to go? I’m sorry Bella, I’m just throwing all this questions out there, not because I’m expecting you to answer them, but just as a measure of how confused and lost I feel with this bird. 

I asked my sister for money for one (really final this time) vet visit, so if I go the vet, I want to be really prepared as to what to ask for, because I don’t feel like I got that much out of my last visit. And I don’t know why that is: the vet is supposed to be really good, he sees pigeons, is a diplomat of the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners certified in Avian Practice, lectures, writes articles, has 15 pet birds himself, and on and on. But when he asked, I should have told him I intend to keep Champion instead of releasing him, because I think that made a difference in his attitude. 

Anyway, I don’t even know why I’m focusing on canker. I just have this sense with Champion, that’s as if there is something not allowing him to eat normal amounts. After the first time I released him, when he kept coming back, as soon as he’d come in he’d run to his food bowl to eat, but then only eat a little bit. Then again if it is internal canker, shouldn’t he be sicker by now. From the side he looks like a really healthy and energetic pigeon, (who's now flying around without panting). 

And how are you and your Battle Pigeon doing?

Eva


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> I don’t feel like I got that much out of my last visit. And I don’t know why that is: the vet is supposed to be really good, he sees pigeons, is a diplomat of the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners certified in Avian Practice, lectures, writes articles, has 15 pet birds himself, and on and on.


Dear Eva,

Thanks for the update. I completely understand your frustration; I sometimes treat dying pigeons that literally start bouncing off walls shortly after they receive canker meds & antibiotics, and their droppings go from awful to virtually perfect within 48hrs. And then I sometimes get the ones that don't respond that way Its the ones like Champion that are the hardest to deal with, because you do so much for them and they should respond very well, but don't quite get there. Its tiring and confidence wearing in these cases.

I was thinking about your vet this week, and the way he didn't do any tests for Champion, which I thought seemed odd. But then I realised that once a bird is taking medicine, many vets (and doctors) would consider tests to be fairly useless, since the medicine may suppress the evidence of bacteria & parasites that tests would otherwise show. I was told by my doctor recently that the best time for testing (a human) is 2 weeks after finishing a course of antibiotics, but with birds having faster metabolisms, not as much time should be needed. It might be worth asking the Vet when the best time to perform a crop swab and fecal would be?



> Anyway, I don’t even know why I’m focusing on canker. I just have this sense with Champion, that’s as if there is something not allowing him to eat normal amounts. After the first time I released him, when he kept coming back, as soon as he’d come in he’d run to his food bowl to eat, but then only eat a little bit. Then again if it is internal canker, shouldn’t he be sicker by now. From the side he looks like a really healthy and energetic pigeon, (who's now flying around without panting).


Its really good to hear that the panting has stopped; you really got on top of that before anything really bad happened. Well done Eva

I suppose Champion could have worms still? Most of my rescues have worms & canker together, but I can't treat them for worms when they are dying; I have to wait at least 2 weeks. My usual wormer is moxidectin which is normally a terrific wormer, but recently I had a case where the pigeon had extremely bad canker and needed hand feeding for two weeks. He seemed to improve a lot with the canker treatment, so I wormed him with moxidectin. But even after that, his droppings were not right. On a hunch, I switched his wormer, and sure enough he started passing masses of tape worms and round worms. After several scary days, his droppings became perfect and he went on to be released. So I guess something like that could be going on with Champion. If it is, a fecal test from your vet should tell you.

Anyway just wanted to send you some support mostly, Eva. I am thinking about you both, and I hope some of my random thoughts help you through this.

X bella


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Eva,



> Don’t they have a way of looking into the crop with some kind of scope, like a human endoscopy?


The avian vet I went to had an endoscope, which he could use to go as far as the gizzard. He retrieved a 50 cm (18 inch) length of twine (like a heavy shoestring) from a small owl standing the height of a pigeon. He used a metal tube to insert the endoscope with a light, along with a device with handles like a scissor, and small grabber or tweezer at the end of a flexible tube.

---------------------

Also found this link with list of avian medications:

http://www.avianweb.com/medicationsexotics.html

---------------------

*Info you already know, but maybe useful for other readers of this thread, who are not familiar with the term "chelation":
*
From Wikipedia, under _Chelation_:



> Other medical applications
> 
> Antibiotic drugs of the tetracycline family are chelators of Ca2+ and Mg2+ ions.





> Tetracyclines are a group of broad-spectrum antibiotics .


Also from Wikipedia, under tetracyclien, administration of tetracycline *to humans*:


> When ingested, it is usually recommended that the more water-soluble, short-acting tetracyclines (plain tetracycline, chlortetracycline, Oxytetracycline, demeclocycline and methacycline) be taken with a full glass of water, either two hours after eating, or two hours before eating. This is partly because most tetracyclines bind with food and also easily with magnesium, aluminium, iron, and calcium, which reduces their ability to be completely absorbed by the body. Dairy products, antacids, or preparations containing iron are particularly recommended to be avoided near the time of taking the drug. Partial exceptions to these rules occur for doxycycline and minocycline, which may be taken with food (though not iron, antacids, or calcium supplements). Minocycline, can be taken with dairy products because it does not chelate calcium as readily, although dairy products do decrease absorption of minocycline slightly.


One of my younger sisters took tetracycline (in the 1960s) and her permanent teeth came out brown and black.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

Thank you for the support and good ideas as usual.

You are absolutely right about waiting for a while to get more objective and relevant test results. Once he's off the antibiotic in three days, I'll get him on a probiotic and vitamins for a while and then take him in for testing when the vet thinks it's appropriate. At this point, especially since he's stable, I don't want to medicate him any further without knowing what's really going on, though you may be right that's it's worms, that the Drontal Plus (praziquantel/pyrantel pamoate/febantel) simply didn't kill. 

It frustrating for both Champion and me that this thing has dragged out for so long now. It's torture for him to be staying inside now that the weather is nice and all the pigeons are pairing up and building nests, and it's torture for me to watch him like that, but what to do...Hopefully, we can get some answers soon.

Hi Larry,

Thanks for you input. That's a very thorough list of medications and it seems an overall good avian site. I had no idea so many human medications can be used for birds, particularly psychiatric medications. Well, if my bird spends any more time locked up, I think he may need Prozac too.

It seems like you have a terrific vet. May I ask, what were the symptoms of the owl that prompted the vet to look with the endoscope?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Eva,



> May I ask, what were the symptoms of the owl that prompted the vet to look with the endoscope?


I don't know. 

I took a pigeon (Pigeon 10-26) to him with a broken wing (upper right humerus).

I showed him on my iPad the photo of the X-ray of the pigeon who had swallowed a paperclip and died the previous day (Nov.22, 2011) during surgery to remove it. He told me that he would have used an endoscope (and grabber tool) to remove the paperclip. He said he knew where the paperclip was: caught right above the gizzard. He also said that during a Europe-iwde conference of avian vets, they had thirteen pigeons which needed surgery; so they formed thirteen teams. Only one pigeon survived. He said he then realized how risky surgery in the [body cavity] was for a pigeon, because of blood loss. He then told me about the owl, showed me his equipment, showed me the cord or thread he had removed from the small owl.

I presume that the owl was regurgitating or vomiting food, or someone had seen it swallow the cord. Perhaps he saw the cord on an x-ray. I will ask him the next time I see him. Which, I hope, won't be soon. I'm satisfied when all the birds I come across do not need a vet.

His name is Dr. VM Peter Coutteel, at www.trigenio.be. Not far from Antwerp, Belgium.

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*medicine*

I am following this post to see how your pigeon is doing. my pigeon is on clindamycin 3 times a day .6ml each time and enrofloxins 2 times a day .12ml each time. for 30 days. I think the meds are making the poop look runny and greenish. my pigeon's poop looked perfect prior to the meds and now the poison bacteria is leaving his body.(I think this is what is happening)
The question is for you NYCpigeon is HOW are you administering the meds? 
I am curious for my own knowledge in application.I drop one drop at a time and wait for his tongue to move around, give him a break and carry on. it takes me 30 minutes each time. I am wondering if there is a trick to getting the meds in with out choking him. larry suggested soaking a ball of bread with meds but I am nervous about stuffing a bit in his mouth since he has no top beak.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

There are somewhat expensive tubes which fit over a syringe, for administering meds and liquid food.

The head vet, Dr. Kamphausen at _Taubenklinik Essen_ (Pigeon Clinic in Essen, Germany) told me to get a cheap piece of rubbery flexible or soft plastic tubing like one can buy in an aquarium shop. Put it on a 1 cc or 1 mm syringe (like those used for allergy shots).

Lubricate the tube so it doesn't abrade the lining of the throat (I usually use a few drops of olive oil), gently slide the tube down the throat, on the pigeon's right side of the tongue. (I think it is supposed to be on the pigeon's right side. I think the trachea attaches by _fasciae_ more to the pigeon's left. This is from one observation I have made of a pigeon). The main thing is to miss the tongue, and get it deeper than the tracheal opening at the base of the tongue, and deep enough so that there won't be any backup that might get inhaled by the trachea or windpipe.

I watched one vet shove a pill down the pigeon's throat with his little finger. Finger went in about two inches. In and out in about a half second. (Fingernails should be trimmed nicely). Not much different from a pigeon picking up a chunk of bread from the street and swallowing it. 

I have dosed a lot of sick pigeons with a milliliter or one cc of liquid pigeon vitamins with the syringe and rubber tube, and also cotrim and ciprofloxacin (Ciprobay) antibiotics.

I always stretch the pigeon's neck when I do this so the liquid or pill won't come back up once it goes down a few inches of throat and enters the crop.

This is an excellent YouTube video on tube feeding a sick pigeon, by PT member Cyro51 (Cynthia) Feefo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU

It shows the more expensive feeding tube I mentioned above (I paid 5-10 Euros for one. $7-12 approx.) The cheaper rubber aquarium hose was about fifty cents. The syringes anywhere from ten cents to half a dollar, depending if you are buying a single syringe at a pet shop boutique or hobby shop, or a box of 100 for allergy shots.

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for the link to youtube
You say you've done this before yourself? much different than hand feeding/medicating a parrot.
That hole at the base of the tongue is the windpipe hole? So to avoid this I stick the tube down the throat? yikes..I'm a bit nervous


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I've had my brothers's parrots nip me. I'd rather do pigeons. It is notvery hard to do, if you can manage to be gentle.

The pigeon will close the opening to trachea when you put a tube in it. Go by your feelings. Watch the YouTube video several times. Put "tube feeding pigeon" in the search box, and check out similar videos. You will get a better feel for the process then.

Some nervousness is appropriate when you are new to this. Relax before you start. Think about calming the bird. (these are my approaches).

Handraising a 3- to 4-day-old baby pigeon involves the same principles, but is a bit more delicate. I wasn't the first, and you won't be the last, to be apprehensive about taking resposibility for the care of a small bird. We all begin somewhere.

Larry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pirab buk said:


> Thanks for the link to youtube
> You say you've done this before yourself? much different than hand feeding/medicating a parrot.
> That hole at the base of the tongue is the windpipe hole? So to avoid this I stick the tube down the throat? yikes..I'm a bit nervous


You shouldn't tube feed a bird unless you have been shown by a qualified vet or rehabber first. And done it in front of them.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, your vet seems excellent indeed, but I'm in the States - hopefully they can do such procedures over here as well. 

Well, I feel more hopeful about my pigeon today - his urates look whiter, the poop somewhat more solid and a nuttier brown-green. He was also eating on his own before it was time for his evening meal, so by the time I got to feed him his crop was already full. 

Hi Pirab,

I was shown the following method of meds administration by a wildlife rehabber. It really helps to have someone show you.
I use a 1 ml plastic syringe (no needle, of course) and hold open his beak, at the same time stretching his neck straight up so that everything is in a straight line, no curves (this, with my left hand). With my right hand, I then very gently plunge the syringe down his throat at the very back of his throat on his right side. I am right-handed so this also happens to work well for me. You should feel no resistance with the syringe going down. If you do, don't force it - try again. I get it down to where over half the syringe is down his throat, before I release the medication. I also lightly grease the outside of the syringe with a bit of coconut oil, to get it to go down easier. While doing all this, the pigeon is tightly wrapped up in a t-shirt or towel on my lap, so that he can move nothing except his neck.

I asked the same rehabber about tube feeding, and she told me it can be dangerous if not done right. Larry has given you a very good description of how to do it, but if you are uncomfortable, feeding him breadballs soaked in the medicine sounds like a good idea and is extremely easy and safe in a normal pigeon. In a pigeon without a top beak......I really don't know. Maybe if you start a new thread, some of the more experienced members who've dealt with a similar situation can jump in with advice. 

If you've been following the thread, you already know that earlier I aspirated my pigeon, while giving him water. This happened because I used a larger syringe - a 3ml which obviously can not go down a pigeon's throat, but just goes towards the back, apparently not far enough to avoid the trachea. 
Prior to Champion, my previous experience with hand-feeding pigeons was only two youngsters, both of whom did great. One of them was released and is part of my flock to this day. The other one was really bonded to me and became my pet. He lived happily with me for two years, until he was snatched by a hawk. My point is, with these two pigeons, I always gave them formula and water in the same way that caused me to aspirate Champion. Because they were fine (which I now understand was only a matter of pure luck), I was not aware just how dangerous this can be. While the rehabber showed me how to administer the meds, she never told me WHY I should administer them this way. I think it's great that you are so cautious and aware of the potential dangers, I only wish I had been.

Yes, I too have the feeling that Baytril causes terrible droppings. At the height of his parathyphoid before I began treatment, when Champion could hardly even walk, his dropping looked much better than later when he was on the Baytril. With every further day on the Baytril they looked worse and worse, even as he looked better and better. The Baytril of course saved his life, but I suppose it can be rough on the system. With Clindamycin, at least in people, even topical Clindamycin can cause diarrhea and stomach upset, so I'm sure your pigeon's dropping will improve once he's through with his treatment course. But 30 days is a long time, he'll probably need a lot of probiotics later. 

Good luck and let us how how he's doing.

Eva


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hello,

so since my last update, here’s what has been going on with Champion:

Within a day or so of my last update here, just as his poops were beginning to look better, I woke up to some horrendous looking overnight blue-green poop and urine – a really incredible color, almost more blue than green. 

Searching through the threads on the forum, I came up with biliverdinuria, an indication of liver trouble. At this point he had two more days of Doxycycline to complete his 14 day course. So upon completion, this past Thursday I took him back to Gloria – the rehabber. They were not too happy to see me with the same bird. Looked at his poop under microscope, did crop swab. I asked about parasites, protozoa.....Nothing. Honestly though, I think she only looks for yeast. We talked about anemia, and elevated white blood cells, so she cut his nail to get a drop of blood to look under the microscope. It was obviously painful for him, and in retrospect I don’t think you can do a count of these things in this way, so I don’t know why I agreed. 
She said something about some cells having strange nuclei, and why hadn’t I given him the malaria treatment that she gave me. I hadn’t, because the avian vet thought that was nonsense and that it can have serious side effects. She felt it’s absolutely not canker, but gave me one pill of rodinazole if I want to try. I don’t know what a single pill would do anyway, so I haven’t given it. I told her about my concerns about his liver, but she said there is no evidence of that, that I should just release him now that the weather is nice, because he’s probably just depressed. 
Well, he’s certainly very frustrated and wants to get out, and so am I, but I don’t think depression/frustration causes blue-green and yellow poop and urine. Basically, they left me with the sense that I should stop bothering them with this pigeon already, that there’s nothing more they can do. So I cannot really go back there, nor would there be a point.

I started giving him milk thistle, probiotics and vitamins, but the horrible droppings continued, even if less intensely colored. I decided to take him to a vet as soon as possible, but couldn’t see Dr. Pilny, so saw Dr. Cynthya Brown instead. She’s also at the Center for avian and exotic medicine, another Diplomat certified in avian practice – she was actually recommended on this forum. I saw her this past Sunday, and brought her his overnight paper towels -the poop and urates/urine had turned bright yellow. Such an incredibly bright yellow, that I suspected Prime the avian vitamins that I had given him the previous evening. However, I had also given him those the evening prior to that, and his poops had not been yellow. 
The only other thing that I gave him for the first time was some red pigeon grit, which he really liked. I also brought her the blue stained paper towel. She felt the change to yellow was a change for the better. (Even though, I read that blue-green indicates early liver disease, while yellow - advanced). She felt we needed blood work and an x-ray to check his liver, but said she didn’t want to stress him out with those yet, if things are moving in the right direction. She said anyway if it was psiticossis affecting his liver, he’s already been on Baytril and Doxy, the two meds for that. She said to bring him back for the tests if the blue-green urates return. She listened to his breathing - couldn’t hear anything, except for a little clicking in the air sack, which she said could simply be the air sack moving in and out. She said he was lean but not emaciated and is maintaining his weight. 

Behavior-wise, there has been no change: I still hand feed him, he’s very active and desperately wants to rejoin the other pigeons. It has been really heartbreaking for me to keep him in because now the weather is really nice, but his poops are turning toward green again, so I think I’ll need to take him to be tested. 

Sorry for the overly long update. 

I’ll keep you posted on the latest developments.


Eva and Champion


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

Thank you heaps for the update, I really appreciate it. I am so sorry to hear that the problem is still unresolved in spite of seeing vets and the rehabber on multiple occasions . How frustrating it must be for you.

Considering how much medicine Champion has had over the past weeks, perhaps what he has is viral after all, what do you think? He also may need a little break from medicine as well to get his system back in order. I feel that all the medicine you've given him should have really treated any non-viral problems by now; you've been very thorough.

Regarding viruses, I am currently looking after a young pair of pigeons who have a virus called pigeon pox, and their dropping can be pretty awful and varied. The only reason I know its a virus is that pox has external signs...otherwise the only signs are the terrible droppings which are frequently too wet and too blue. However one of them is finally kicking the virus and her dropping are getting back to normal again. I am not treating with medicine, just keeping them well fed and everything clean & stress free for them. It seems to be working.

I wonder if you vet can test for anything like Pigeon Herpes Virus?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

I think the vet very much thought the same as you – that for the time being, he should just be given some time to recover, with only vitamins and probiotics, which is what I’ve been giving him for the past one week since he finished his medications. She also thought the milk thistle was a good idea as a liver detox. He’s been on so many meds, all his systems are probably pretty wrecked by now. The vet said it can take 3 months for their gut flora to fully get back to normal, but their appetite should comes back pretty fast.

Like with your pox patients, blueish and watery, is exactly how his droppings appear from time to time, and also so very variable – from green to yellow to brownish…..all within the same day, so I’ll definitely ask if they can test for any viruses. She seemed unwilling to do anything that would stress him further, considering everything he’s already been through, but if they are going to be doing blood work anyway....

Recently, I went to a pigeon supply store that’s run by some old time pigeon fanciers to see if I could pick up something helpful, as well as a vet recommendation. All their meds though were powders in large amounts for flock treatment, and they treat their own birds, so couldn’t recommend a vet, but gave me some electrolyte powder (something called "Natural Elektolit"), and told me to keep putting it in his water for a week. Do you think that would be a good idea? 

I’m so used to thinking of Champion as a large pigeon because he towers over the other ferals, so it was very disheartening to see their gorgeous racers – so huge and fat. The males weight 550g. While Champion is only 460  – smaller than their females. 

He’s been really active these past few days, almost hyperactive – lots and lots of flying, and constant cooing. He wants to go out so badly, and at times I feel I can’t take seeing him like this and will cave in to him and open the window, but then I think better of it.... 


I hope your babies make a full recovery from the pox. I've heard it can be really bad if it's internal, but hopefully that's not your case.



Sorry for posting all these poop pics. These days they are more yellow-green than blue-green, and the colors are even brighter than in the pictures.

The first two pics are of poops from overnight - last night.

The last pic is of poop typical for during the day - the urine is less intense yellow, the feces - clay colored....


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Champion's Vet Visit*

Hello,

Champion saw the vet today. 

They did a fecal flotation, gram stain, comprehensive blood profile with bile acids, as well as a PCR test for chlamydophila. There should be some preliminary results tomorrow, and full results the day after, except for the Chlamydia test which will take 5 days.

When the blood was drawn from the wing, it wasn’t clotting properly which according to the vet is another indication of liver trouble. (I certainly know this is the case in people.) So now the poor thing has a giant bruise , but otherwise seems fine, other than obviously being stressed and tired from the whole vet experience.

The vet thinks that whatever is affecting his liver seems to be waning, because his urine although still yellow has very slowly been improving - no more intense blue-green biliverdin and the yellow too is much less intense. I asked about testing for viral causes, but he wasn’t sure if there were tests for viruses other than the blood test for PMV, of which there’s no indication.

The vet thinks there’s no reason for a pigeon who presents clinically like Champion (normal acting) to not be eating on his own. He told me to start weaning him from hand feeding. 

Now that he’s over 480 grams, I feel a little more confident about doing that, but I’m not sure how exactly to proceed. He has been hand fed now twice a day for just over 4 weeks. Should I cut down the amount first and then go to one feeding, before stopping altogether. Over what period should I do that? 

Any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated. 


Eva


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Results*

Dr Pilny just called me back with Champion's test results.

From the fecal test:
gram stain is normal; negative for parasites except coccidia 1+. He said though that this is very little he doesn't treat for such a low level. 

His blood test is normal (bile salts, protein, uric acid, etc, etc) and there is nothing to indicate compromised liver function. The only thing they have found is a blood parasite "very common in pigeons". He said it is not malaria, and that it is not pathogenic. He is not at all anemic. 

We are still waiting on the chlamydia test to come back in a few days.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what does his diet consist of ? perhaps take out the extras and try just the grain feed, and ACv in the water a few times a week. does he get sunlight outdoors?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva,
Thanks for the update and for sharing the test results. Its good to hear his liver function tests were all good and he was cleared of bacterial & parasitic infections.

BTW I was impressed that Gloria's first instinct about Champion was a blood parasite problem, even if it was the wrong one. She's got sharp instincts, that lady.

What I read about blood parasites is, even if they don't cause any harm, they can bring down the immune system to some degree. I wonder if that's why Champion is not getting back into top shape even after his very thorough treatment? Its just a thought anyway.

You've been very kind, looking after Champion so well and giving him such good medical treatment. i know its hard to get your other half to see the value in it, my guy has his on and off days as well with what I do. Personally, i think giving a bird a second chance at ife is worth dealing with his silly moods.

PS. Regarding giving up the hand feeding, I don't know of an easy way. I just try to put faith in a birds natural response to hunger, and put some enticing food out for it. It can help if you can get him near other pigeons when they are having a feeding frenzy too..


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Spirit Wings,

Currently his diet consists of pea sized balls that I hand feed him twice a day. These are made of various grains that I grind up - brown rice, wheat, millet, corn, barley, peas, several types of lentils, mung beans, buckwheat, oats. I used to include oilier seeds like flaxseed, hemp seed, sesame seeds and sunflower seeds, but have been omitting those lately because I wasn't sure what was going on with his liver. He has full time access to these same seeds and pigeon grit, but only picks up a few sunflower seeds and a peanut or two now and then. He also gets milk thistle daily, Pro-Bios and avian vitamins almost daily. 

He's a feral pigeon who came to me in the middle of January, stayed with me for 4 weeks, was released and lived outside for two weeks, before ending up again with me for another 4 weeks, so far. So he has been without outdoor sunshine now for a total of 8 weeks with two weeks of outdoor life in between. 

I hope to get him to eat on own as soon as possible so that I can release him.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

Yes, you are right about Gloria. She actually saw the parasites under the microscope in a drop of blood, but had a hunch even before that. However that's because she thought he was anemic, and thankfully he's not. 

You are totally right that seeing other pigeons eating has a beneficial effect. In fact it is the only time that he would peck at anything - when the other pigeons are eating on the other side of the glass - but even then it's just a few of his favorite seeds.

My mother-in-law is coming for a couple of weeks at the end of this month, and Champion's quarters are the only place she can stay in, so I really hope Champion will be ready for release by then, or it may turn out to be saved the pigeon, lost the husband. Champion is totally worth it though, he's such a smart and handsome boy!

I'll let you all know how he does.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva,

Will you still be able to leave food for Champion when your Mother in law arrives? 
Maybe you could ask her not to come because you have a pigeon , I'm sure she'd understand lol.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

I feed the pigeons everyday at the window ledge and will continue to do so throughout her visit. However, Champion has a food, grit and water bowl inside the living room as well, and at least the last time I released him he started coming inside to eat and just hang out, actually to hang out mostly. Before he came in sick, he would always eat from my hand at the window, but since his release he's been doing less of this and eating mostly inside. His food will continue to be inside if he chooses to come in, but with a strange person in the room, I don't know how comfortable he'll feel. I can of course ask her to leave the room while he comes in to eat because usually this is the first thing he does when he comes in, but I can't ask her to not be there while he's there, because he sometimes stays for the entire day, leaving only at dusk. 

As for asking my mother-in-law not to come to visit - as much as I wish I could do that, it's not possible because she's had this trip planned for over a year, already has a visa and plane ticket and is coming all the way from Bulgaria. And no, she sure would not understand cancelling over a pigeon. From what she knows, she already thinks right along with my husband, that what I'm doing is excessive and unreasonable. 

But you can bet that I actually tried to dissuade my husband from from having her over because of my pigeon. As you can imagine that argument didn't go over too well.

Unfortunately, most people do not see these things as you and I do.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Hi Spirit Wings,
> 
> Currently his diet consists of pea sized balls that I hand feed him twice a day. These are made of various grains that I grind up - brown rice, wheat, millet, corn, barley, peas, several types of lentils, mung beans, buckwheat, oats. I used to include oilier seeds like flaxseed, hemp seed, sesame seeds and sunflower seeds, but have been omitting those lately because I wasn't sure what was going on with his liver. He has full time access to these same seeds and pigeon grit, but only picks up a few sunflower seeds and a peanut or two now and then. He also gets milk thistle daily, Pro-Bios and avian vitamins almost daily.
> 
> ...


wow, that is a long time not to eat on his own. have you left food for him in his cage, like a pigeon grain mix.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Yes, he has had a mix of grains at all times with him, as well as grit. He's not in a cage, but has the room to himself.

Do you think I should just stop feeding him or gradually phase it out? So far, if I miss a feeding or even two in row he doesn't take the initiative to eat.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Yes, he has had a mix of grains at all times with him, as well as grit. He's not in a cage, but has the room to himself.
> 
> Do you think I should just stop feeding him or gradually phase it out? So far, if I miss a feeding or even two in row he doesn't take the initiative to eat.


I would pop the grains in the back of the throat and peck at the dish to get him going, like an adult would do with babies.. it may be wise to crate him some times with the food in there with him.. he really should be eating on his own by now if not really too ill. the grains may firm up his stool..and it may do him good to get some sunshine on him too.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

A member here named `eternal' had a similar problem with her rescued baby pigeon last year- she'd been feeding it formula for many weeks and it wasn't moving onto seed when it was well. She finally got it to eat by not feeding formula for 1 1/2 days (I think). At first it was bit picky with what it ate, but its eating became normal shortly after that.

What I'd do personally, is if Champion isn't eating after 2 missed feedings, on the third feeding I'd get him near the wild pigeons at your window and get him involved in their feeding frenzy. That should work, because of his hunger. I often start them on sunflower kernels, as Pigeons find these oily seeds delicious.

PS. Regarding your hubby , I know its hard dealing with a partner is not as supportive as you need them to be. A lot of people tout themselves as compassionate people, but are reluctant when it comes to actually lifting a finger to help anything or anyone outside of themselves. 

With some people, that reluctance to help can be based on a sense of helplessness....they do care, but they don't know what to do and so they turn away. My partner was a lot less supportive in the beginning, when I didn't know how to help the hurt critters I brought home. But he's getting better now that he's seen so many lives saved. Hopefully your husband will be like that too?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*blood parasite*

I've re-read this posting to try to remember this pigeon's history. Is this pigeon making making any attempt in eating? And if you are still hand-feeding is the pigeon 'excited' about eating? Odd that an older pigeon refuses to eat.
One other question: what was the blood parasite found on the pigeon?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I didn’t ask the vet what the parasite was – I just know it’s not malaria. I will ask him when he calls with the Chlamydia results on Monday. 

This is case is so strange and frustrating. 
After all the vet visits, medications and tests, I feel I am no closer to a resolution than I was when I took him back in, 5 weeks ago. 
I took him back in because he was not eating enough. He was coming in and eating a little bit, and now when I stop feeding him, that’s exactly how much he’ll eat. I see no change and don’t know what to do. 

I have been doing what Bella suggested all along – his food which has lots of sunflower seeds (hi favorite, naturally) is next to the pigeons eating at the window, but he’s more interested in strutting about and cook-oo-rooing than eating. 

Thinking back now, just before he came down sick with the salmonella in mid January, I noticed he had started to eat much less. It’s probably the reason he became sick.

All the vets and rehabbers tell me a bird has to be quite sick for its appetite to be affected, but this just does not square with his demeanor. He’s very active. He behaves as if he owns the place (and he does, lol).
But no, he’s not at all excited about eating, and hates being fed. He is fine with the first 4-5 balls, and then just struggles, gulps air when he swallows, and clearly shows me “no more” and tries to get away if I continue. I have the sense that he is in pain when he eats, so I usually end up feeding him less than the amount I have prepared – he is just that uncomfortable. He is totally fine with being held, and in fact I have been amazed how much he loves it. I have never seen such enjoyment outside of a hand-raised bird. He is not thrilled about being caught of course, but once he’s in my hands, he is totally relaxed, and absolutely loves me to scratch his head. He closes his eyes, and his head droops to the side, and he’s just blissed out. I petted him this morning for an hour before feeding him, but once I started feeding him, the bliss ended. 

Could he have pain in the crop? What would indicate that? He does kind of stand upright after he takes a few bites out of his seed bowl….I think…or maybe I’m imagining. 

The only thing that I find strange in his behavior is that I see him raise up his feathers very often as if to shake himself off. You know the way birds raise up every single feather and shake themselves off with feather dust flying all over the place -like that. Sometimes he does shake himself off, but often he doesn’t, just stays like that for a few second then his feathers go back down, come back up again and so on. I don’t think I’ve seen other pigeons do this, so it kind of worries me, although he often preens when he does this. I ‘ve posted two pics so that you can see what I’m talking about. It’s not the kind of ruffled standing immobile with the neck inside the body posture, nothing like that. 

I’m really sorry to go on and on, and I so appreciate those of you who take the time to read my shamelessly long posts, it’s just that I’m very worried because I have to let him go in a few days.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eva,

I agree that its suspicious that he's still not eating properly, and he looks a bit fluffed up every now and again. I see this behaviour a lot in my pox victims, before the lesions start to show...you just know something is a bit off with them.

The difficult thing about diagnosing Champion's problem, is that if he is fighting something viral that is taking down his immune system, its hard to test for this. The bird has to be shedding the virus at the time when the test is made, therefore many tests are inaccurate. This is probably why your vet felt that its not worth doing any viral tests apart from PMV, but he or she didn't rule out a viral problem either.

Eva, i know its so hard for you, but my only advice is to think about caging him and keeping him for another 4 weeks. I know its SO tiring hand feeding him, bit maybe you won't have to do it for the whole time?. It seems like he still needs you Eva... viruses can take a long while to get over, and they need good food each and every day- if they miss eating for just one day, a sick pigeon can deteriorate very quickly, and you can't always bring them back after a certain point.

Maybe this will give you an excuse to have time out from your mother in law too...


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

I have one who did the same thing at one point, he seemed to have forgotten how to eat when he was about 2 months old. For a while I had to hand feed him, but I fed him normal pigeon mix (1 tablespoon twice a day), plus some grit. I remember when I was feeding him, he was always trying to pick the seeds from my hand himself, but dropped them back everytime.

I am quite sure in the case with my pigeon this was caused by some kind of stress, I had just brought a younger pigeon in the house and to my surprise the older pigeon was so scared that he ran away every time the young one came near him, even with good intensions.
In the meantime he grew up, now he is 5 1/2 months old and it's him scaring off everybody who dares to come near him. He started to eat by himself again, although he still can't eat the bigger seeds. Now he can sometimes swallow dried peas, but not corn, or even sunflower seeds. 

At least with my pigeons, I've noticed at first they find it easier to eat buckwheat and small hemp seeds, also frozen (thawed) peas and corn. And of course bread, but that's not so good for them. 

...

Strangely enough, the pigeon I was telling you about does that too with his feathers lately. Not like when being really sick, but it seems to me that he is ruffling up his feathers a bit too often sometimes, even though just for a few seconds.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*hand feeding adult pigeon*

I had just bought this book online "A Veterinary Approach to pigeon health" by Dr David Marx DVM.It's an easy to read book. What strikes me in your situation it on the chapter of pigeon herpesvirus.p.29-33 80% of wild pigeons are carriers.the chapter describes how a pigeon will get the virus making it very painful to eat & drink. It's not the virus that kills the bird but lack of nutrition because they refuse to eat.They, in turn, end up suffering from secondary infections.
I am wondering if at some point your bird suffered from this virus making him afraid to eat on his own or perhaps he has residual scarring in his throat/oral cavity.(!) just a thought....


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Ive found quite often that ill or injured birds seem to go backwards a bit as far as feeding goes.
If one has to hand or force feed, some seem to take a while as if to sort of re-learn how to do it on their own.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he isn't eating well and you release him, he probably won't make it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

pirab buk said:


> I had just bought this book online "A Veterinary Approach to pigeon health" by Dr David Marx DVM.It's an easy to read book. What strikes me in your situation it on the chapter of pigeon herpesvirus.p.29-33 80% of wild pigeons are carriers.the chapter describes how a pigeon will get the virus making it very painful to eat & drink. It's not the virus that kills the bird but lack of nutrition because they refuse to eat.They, in turn, end up suffering from secondary infections.
> I am wondering if at some point your bird suffered from this virus making him afraid to eat on his own or perhaps he has residual scarring in his throat/oral cavity.(!) just a thought....


Thanks heaps for this info about Herpes Virus. I've felt, too, that Champion has demonstrated many symptoms of Pigeon Herpes Virus these past weeks, but its a very difficult Virus to test for, apparently, due to the way the virus is shed only intermittently in the area where swabs would be taken, in the Pharynx. Normally to test for it properly, several birds from the same loft would be swabbed, or a dead bird would be autopsied.

Its interesting (edit, or maybe `disturbing' is the better word here) that herpes Virus causes ulcers in the upper digestive and respiratory tract , leading to pain and breathing issues...that could definitely explain Champion's breathing difficulties and reluctance to eat.

Anyway, I think its a possibility worth considering


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Champion video*

Thank you all so much for the suggestions and the wealth of information. I really appreciate that so many of you shared your experience and knowledge.

I had also come across the herpes information that Pirab buk is quoting here, and thought about the possibility that he might have lesions in his esophagus that are making it painful for him to eat. He doesn't have breathing difficulty - that was caused by me aspirating him and cleared up very quickly with the doxycycline, but I do have a feeling he’s uncomfortable with eating. I certainly hope that’s not the case and it’s something more like what Quazar is saying. Like Jondove’s pigeon, he deos seem to prefer smaller grains now, but used to love dried peas and peanuts. 

I took some video of him yesterday to show what his typical behavior is like. It starts with him taking a nap but actually he hardly ever sleeps during the day, and then never for more than a few minutes, except when I pet his head. The rest is very much what he does every day - all day. I couldn’t catch him at his food bowl but towards the end of the video he eats a few seeds at the window. You can also see about the ruffling and tell me if you think it’s unusual. I’ve included perhaps a bit more of that than is representative, just to give an idea.

Here’s the YouTube link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu7FadKp_yY&feature=youtu.be


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the video, Eva.

I watched all of it and I thought he looks pretty good! . When he eats seed, he eats it with enthusiasm, but all I saw on offer near the window was millet and small seeds. It would be interesting to see how he responds to corn, pigeon peas, sunflower kernels (sunflower without the husk).

He is well enough to tell off other pigeons for coming near `his' window, which is a good sign


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

I also think he looks good, I hope he's not hiding some illness. Anyway, there are no signs of anything being wrong from what I saw.



nycpigeonlady said:


> Like Jondove’s pigeon, he deos seem to prefer smaller grains now, but used to love dried peas and peanuts.


Mine is just younger and a little slow at learning, but he's always at least trying to eat even the biggest grains. Lately he even succeeds, sometimes.

If your pigeon only picks the smaller grains and always avoids the bigger ones, he might actually have a problem swallowing, I don't know.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Pigeons can actually be more fussy eaters than kids.
It may be that its not so much he cant eat larger seeds, but just wants the ones he likes.
Ive just watched one of my rescues (tiny) flick a whole dish of seeds over the floor & specifically picked out certain ones to eat & left the rest. (mainly eating corn & sunflower hearts)
He can & does normally eat anyting, but also takes fads where he will only eat certain ones. 
Try watching which ones he eats, then remove most of them for his next feed & see what he does


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Pigeons can actually be more fussy eaters than kids.


That' so true


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Oh dear Bella, you watched the whole video! You’re so sweet!
There were sunflower seeds (shelled of course) at the window but those he had eaten before I started shooting. There was also some corn, green peas and lentils, but I don’t think those were visible. Anyway – he’s just not interested in those old favorites currently. 

He has a huge variety of seeds and grains of all sizes in his food bowls. I’ve stocked up with every conceivable variety that a pigeon can eat to tempt him. He does exactly what Quazar’s Tiny does – flicks it all over the floor, so that he can pick and choose. I haven’t narrowed his choices down because I’m happy to see him eat anything, just as long as he eats. 

Yes, my feral pigeons can be very fussy and definitely have favorites, which are always subject to change. It’s very much as Quazar says, they have fads, and will over time refuse to touch what has been a favorite food before. Some will act almost offended sometimes when I offer them what they no longer want.

Jondove, my late pet pigeon, was a very slow learner when it came to food. It was a constant source of worry for me, because it was my first pigeon and I was always comparing him the ones outside. It seems it can take some young pigeons quite a while to develop their palette, especially in an environment where they don’t have the pressure of hunger, or the example of many flock mates that they can learn from. I’m sure your pigeon will eventually get there, though mine refused to eat corn for the first year and a half of his life!

Thanks all for spending the time to look at the video. I’m really glad none of you think Champion looks off in some obvious way. That day I had fed him at 7 am about half of his regular portion, and it was about 2 pm when I shot the video. So what you saw him eating in the video was about as much as he ate until his evening feeding at 7pm.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

He needs to be left to feed himself, they do pick and will eat if they need too. keep it simple and just leave his feed out for him in the same place. it seems pigeons are active in eating about twice a day..they do not eat like a dog and woof food down all at once if they have free choice at it.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks, Spirit Wings - I'll do as you say, and see how it goes. 

It just seems the pigeons outside eat until their crops are really full or there's no more food, whichever comes first. Perhaps, it's being in a situation where food is always plentiful and available, that changes things.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

My wild ones eat like that too , Eva. In captivity they do eat differently- mine eat more frequently, and its not such a desperate way of feeding compared to the wild guys.

Eva, are you going to have to let him go, or have you been able to find a way to keep him a little bit longer?


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## Vova (Mar 27, 2012)

feral pigeons just chill in you apparent?!?!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Vova said:


> feral pigeons just chill in you apparent?!?!


Eva is a pigeon whisperer She's a special lady !


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Well, I got a message from the vet today - no chlamydia, so that's good news.

But, yes Bella, I think I'll have to let him go very soon now. I'm sure he'll keep coming back to eat and rest as before. Also, because all my pigeons hang around here all the time (they eat, nest, roost) I never loose sight of any of them for more than a total of 20 minutes a day. So I'll be monitoring his behavior all the time and if things seem to be off even slightly, I'll have to figure out a way to keep him in again. I'll really miss our petting sessions every morning though, when I pet his head until my hand gets very tired -usually at least an hour. He falls so soundly asleep that he coos in his sleep without waking up - it's extremely cute and more than makes up for getting up at 6 am after 3 hours of sleep. 



Well Vova, the other ferals had for the time being been barred from chilling in my apartment because of Champion. 

It's interesting what has happened though, since Champion has been inside. A hand-raised rescue who I released four years ago, and who grew into a extremely well-adjusted huge male has started to really want to come inside. He's been hitting his wings into the window just trying to get in, and just goes crazy every time I get near the window. He's definitely not sick - probably the healthiest pigeon in the whole flock, and although he has always immediately landed on my hand whenever he gets the chance, he has never insisted on coming inside since he was released, now years ago. 

I don't know what to make of this - it all started when he saw Champion inside. And no amount of treats offered at the window will appease him - but I couldn't let him in because he thinks he rules the world and is very aggressive. Pigeons are just so endlessly fascinating.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That sounds good Eva. It will give you a break and if he needs you, he'll let you know. The beautiful & weird thing about pigeons is if you handle them and no harm comes to them, they can actually feel more trusting towards you & seek you out if they are in trouble. Mine all act that way.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Champion's first day out*

I released Champion this morning at 9am. 

I did something that I know you'll all criticize me for, but I was nervous and I couldn't resist - I hand fed him one last time before letting him go. 

As soon as he was out he started picking fights with the other pigeons. Many of the good nesting places are already taken, so he was trying to run the other pigeon couples out of their spots. Every time I looked out the window, he would be viciously fighting another male. However by 3pm he had found a new mate and since then they have been kissing and cuddling nonstop. She looks exactly like his former mate, who dumped him. It's almost hard to tell the two apart, except the new girl is even tinier than the previous one. So now smallest pigeon in the flock is paired up with the largest - very, very cute.

It seems they've settled on an A/C a couple floors down from me, so I'll be watching how they get on. I should also probably bake some cookies and go to befriend the 4th floor neighbors!

I'll keep you updated on his progress.

Eva


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the cute update, Eva!

Having a mate & being free to do pigeon things will be so good for his morale. Just FYI, It'll probably take a few days to rebuild his fitness. When I'm soft releasing pigeons, they sometimes get a bit sore after flying around for the first time in weeks, and you can expect them to do a lot of sitting and recovering. Its nice that he can cuddle & sit around with a new mate during this time, with you giving him food.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

*Update*

Champy has been free for almost 5 weeks now. He eats out of my hand several times every day, quite little each time, but looks good and is extremely energetic. The picture is actually from the second week he was released, and he looks plumper and better now. You can see his tiny wife next to him who needs to stand on something to steal a kiss. They had one egg, but for some reason abandoned it and sat beside it instead of on it. So, no little ones for now, which I'm very happy with because I wasn't looking forward to the extra stress of him feeding young so soon after he was unwell.


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## pigeon is fun (Sep 6, 2010)

He is looking good!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh wow, he looks so awesome & strong next to his pretty little girl....she's so lovely too isn't she? 

Eva, you did so well with him, all that effort & hard decision making was worth it. You have good instincts

And thanks for the update, I've been hoping you would have a chance to update this thread soon..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He looks great. Wonder what happened to the second egg. They don't usually sit on them til the second one comes.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Champy has been free for almost 5 weeks now. He eats out of my hand several times every day, quite little each time, but looks good and is extremely energetic. The picture is actually from the second week he was released, and he looks plumper and better now. You can see his tiny wife next to him who needs to stand on something to steal a kiss. They had one egg, but for some reason abandoned it and sat beside it instead of on it. So, no little ones for now, which I'm very happy with because I wasn't looking forward to the extra stress of him feeding young so soon after he was unwell.


what kind of band does he have on him?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Eva, you did so well with him, all that effort & hard decision making was worth it. You have good instincts


I couldn't have done it without everyone's helpful advice and wonderful support. You've all been great, and I am very grateful for all your wisdom and kindness.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> what kind of band does he have on him?


It is a 2007 IPB band – from Foys. I have known him since January of 2008 or it may have been even earlier than that, so he’s been feral most of his life.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> It is a 2007 IPB band – from Foys. I have known him since January of 2008 or it may have been even earlier than that, so he’s been feral most of his life.


Dear Eva,

Its interesting that he has just the one band too. Around here, one band means the racing pigeon was lost during training before its first race, usually the band tells its age (2007). Two bands mean it was lost during a race...the second band has the chip for recording when it gets home (the few who get home)


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't know how it works here in the US either - maybe one of the racing people can shed some light on this. I do have the band number, and I'm tempted to contact the breeder - Foy's, and try to find out what his history was. But you are probably right that he got lost while still quite young. I suppose he was sold to someone in NYC rather than coming from further away like your Battle Pigeon. That would of course make him the exact opposite of a champion, but he'll always be a champion to me.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> I don't know how it works here in the US either - maybe one of the racing people can shed some light on this. I do have the band number, and I'm tempted to contact the breeder - Foy's, and try to find out what his history was. But you are probably right that he got lost while still quite young. I suppose he was sold to someone in NYC rather than coming from further away like your Battle Pigeon. That would of course make him the exact opposite of a champion, but he'll always be a champion to me.


you can contact foy's and they can tell you who they sold the band to, so then you might would know who bred him and pehaps get a little history on him. Iam surprised it was not done from when he was found, but I don't know the history on his capture, he was not meant to be feral IMO.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> Iam surprised it was not done from when he was found, but I don't know the history on his capture, he was not meant to be feral IMO.


Well, this is his history: When I moved into my apartment in late 2007, I started feeding the flock of pigeons that hung around my building, and he was in it. I could see he was a banded bird, but couldn’t catch him nor did I think that I should because he was doing perfectly well. I have been feeding this same flock at my window every day since then (him included), but had cause to catch him for the first time one year ago when he came with thread around his feet. I removed the thread, and read his band, but since by that point he had been living as a feral for at least three years and was doing great – had a mate etc. I didn’t think it necessary to locate his owner and uproot him from his life. By that point, I also considered him somewhat of a pet as I do all the other pigeons in that flock. Apparently, he also feels very comfortable with me because when he got sick this past January he simply checked himself into my apartment - I didn't have to catch him, and kept coming back inside even after he was cured and released, which is where this thread picked up the story. 

But I’d still like to know what his prior history is, so I guess I will contact Foy's.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would have done the same. He seems to have adjusted well to the life he now has.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Well, this is his history: When I moved into my apartment in late 2007, I started feeding the flock of pigeons that hung around my building, and he was in it. I could see he was a banded bird, but couldn’t catch him nor did I think that I should because he was doing perfectly well. I have been feeding this same flock at my window every day since then (him included), but had cause to catch him for the first time one year ago when he came with thread around his feet. I removed the thread, and read his band, but since by that point he had been living as a feral for at least three years and was doing great – had a mate etc. I didn’t think it necessary to locate his owner and uproot him from his life. By that point, I also considered him somewhat of a pet as I do all the other pigeons in that flock. Apparently, he also feels very comfortable with me because when he got sick this past January he simply checked himself into my apartment - I didn't have to catch him, and kept coming back inside even after he was cured and released, which is where this thread picked up the story.
> 
> But I’d still like to know what his prior history is, so I guess I will contact Foy's.


I see, so he got himself in some trouble..thank goodness you were there.
If I had lost one of mine I would want to be contacted.
time has past so the point is really not important now except now you would like to know..they may ask why you did not contact back then..but you can deal with it Im sure. He does sound happy as long as he has shelter and food that is what is important.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Well, this is his history: When I moved into my apartment in late 2007, I started feeding the flock of pigeons that hung around my building, and he was in it. I could see he was a banded bird, but couldn’t catch him nor did I think that I should because he was doing perfectly well.


Also 2007 would make him about 3-5 years old. When I contacted my Battle Pigeon's owner, he said that he races his pigeons for two years, and then culls the ones who don't win races. The others he keeps for breeding for another 8 years, and then culls them. But most get lost & killed during races, so survival prospects were very poor in that loft.

I appreciated that that person was so open with me and taught me so much about how racing pigeons live. And I also respect the breeding that goes into pigeons like these. But having had battle Pigeon in my hand, wounded the way he was, I couldn't return him to a situation where death was so probable - not after him flying 1500 Km's to somehow find me, nearly dead. (so I didn't). I gave him a mate and spoil him stupid I love him SO much!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's true that many do want their birds back, but there are many who will cull them too. If they have gotten lost, or just didn't come home, they are of no use to the original owner. There was a woman who called the owner to come for his bird, and he did come. But then he wrung the birds neck right in front of her. With hearing about all these things going on, it's no wonder that people who find them and become attached to them, don't want to turn them over to someone they don't know anything about. Who could blame them? I realize that not all racers are like that, but the ones that are ruin it for the others.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> It's true that many do want their birds back, but there are many who will cull them too. If they have gotten lost, or just didn't come home, they are of no use to the original owner. There was a woman who called the owner to come for his bird, and he did come. But then he wrung the birds neck right in front of her. With hearing about all these things going on, it's no wonder that people who find them and become attached to them, don't want to turn them over to someone they don't know anything about. Who could blame them? I realize that not all racers are like that, but the ones that are ruin it for the others.


well if the owner is one of the good ones... perhaps she should forgo the contact.. he may want him back..esp if he hears he got tangled up..kind of hard to come home when that happens..not to mention all the pretty hens in the feral flock..lol.. If one does find a banded bird and you find the owner I would hope one would ask what is going to happen to the bird and say if he is a cull can I keep him. esp now that we know that is a practice some do have. using the old noggin there...lol..


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Spirit wings, I don't know why he didn't go back to his owner, but it wasn't because he got tangled up. The tangling up in thread happened 3 and a half YEARS after I met him, so he had already been living as a feral for at least three and a half years before I got him and read his band, and he was with that flock before I took to feeding them, so it could have been longer. He was banded in 2007, and I have known him since late 2007, so by 2011 when I caught him to remove the thread, he was a naturalized feral because he had spent most of his life with that flock. To uproot him from the life he had created for himself and return him to someone just because they bought him and "own" him at this point, was not in the best interest of the bird, I thought, particularly because "my" ferals have a pretty cushy existence. 

Yes, animals may belong to people as other things do, but they are in a different category than other types of property because they are sentient beings. Even though I’m sure there are plenty of racers who very much care about and take great care of their birds, the very nature of the sport is to take the birds away from their home putting them in harm’s way and taking the chance that they may not come back. Well, if that happens and the bird is able to successfully adapt to another kind of life…..I don’t know what “rights” the owner has over the bird at that point, and I don’t mean legal rights. 

Of course, if a racing pigeon joins my flock tomorrow and I can catch him, I will contact the owner because that would be a totally different situation. 

But you' re right that I should have contacted the owner to let him know about the bird anyway, even if I had no intention of turning him over. I can of course still do that - whether they hear about a bird they lost in 2007, in 2011 or in 2012 I don't think matters that much.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Of course, if a racing pigeon joins my flock tomorrow and I can catch him, I will contact the owner because that would be a totally different situation.
> 
> But you' re right that I should have contacted the owner to let him know about the bird anyway, even if I had no intention of turning him over. I can of course still do that - whether they hear about a bird they lost in 2007, in 2011 or in 2012 I don't think matters that much.


You're awesome Eva, you have such a compassionate and common sense attitude

I realise there are pigeon racers on this forum so I try to be sensitive & positive about some aspects of the sport. But the fact is they put pigeons in the middle of nowhere , long distances from home, hoping to make money from this and knowing that some, if not all, will die. So.....finders keepers as far as I'm concerned. Its a unique animal racing sport in that the losses are just horrible- horse racers can be hard minded (I used to be a groom when I was studying Vet science at Uni) but they don't put animals in races knowing most of them will die each time they do it.

I think the only reason to contact the owner would be for more information about Champion's history. It might be interesting.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

A few years ago I too found a lost racing pigeon. I found him sitting in a puddle.I tried contacting the owner who didn't want him. He ended up being very sick and sadly, the country vet at the time, suggested putting him down.
In retrospect, I should have brought him to city for a check up. I think he could've been saved. Sadly, pigeons, for the most part, are disregarded.
Thankfully, we have all you folks in this chat group that cares about pigeons


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> Spirit wings, I don't know why he didn't go back to his owner, but it wasn't because he got tangled up. The tangling up in thread happened 3 and a half YEARS after I met him, so he had already been living as a feral for at least three and a half years before I got him and read his band, and he was with that flock before I took to feeding them, so it could have been longer. He was banded in 2007, and I have known him since late 2007, so by 2011 when I caught him to remove the thread, he was a naturalized feral because he had spent most of his life with that flock. To uproot him from the life he had created for himself and return him to someone just because they bought him and "own" him at this point, was not in the best interest of the bird, I thought, particularly because "my" ferals have a pretty cushy existence.
> 
> Yes, animals may belong to people as other things do, but they are in a different category than other types of property because they are sentient beings. Even though I’m sure there are plenty of racers who very much care about and take great care of their birds, the very nature of the sport is to take the birds away from their home putting them in harm’s way and taking the chance that they may not come back. Well, if that happens and the bird is able to successfully adapt to another kind of life…..I don’t know what “rights” the owner has over the bird at that point, and I don’t mean legal rights.
> 
> ...


I understand he was living a feral life and was only caught because he got into some trouble,And he was free to fly home at anytime..which allot do..even after years..something just clicks. and you then read the band. what you decided to do is your choice. And it does not matter really after all these years..the person who kept and bred the bird probably thinks he is dead. He is an Indepenant pigeon breeder (IPB), so this bird could of been raced with this band only if the club allowed it..or the breeder/keeper/owner was good enough to band his homers so he can be found if the bird got lost, That is a reason to band. unfortunaly it does not always work sometimes..and Im sure there are a many feral homing pigeon out there who never do get caught.. If they find a flock to hang out with the temptation of avalible mates keeps them from going home allot of times.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Champion's feeding two gorgeous little babies that hatched a few days ago - still with unopened eyes, but there's also an egg in the nest. So I'm wondering, how is this going to work our if it hatches?

In other news....I contacted Foy's to find out about Champion's history, and it turned out they did not breed and sell him as I thought, but sold the band to someone (as Spirit Wings suggested), who's number they gave me. The person who bred Champion turns out to be a wonderful guy called Steven from Garrison, NY which is about 50 miles from me. He breeds and keeps homing pigeons but does not race them. He said Champion either got away from him or from a racer he was sold to (he couldn't check his records when we spoke). We had a lovely chat - I told him the whole story of Champion and thanked him for raising such a gorgeous and smart bird. He thought I had done the right thing, and was intrigued and glad to hear what had happened and that he's alive and thriving. We talked about pigeons and pigeon things....and who knows, maybe we'll meet in person someday at a pigeon show or feed store in the area.


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