# Soft shelled eggs



## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I wanted to start a thread about soft shelled eggs, since I am having this problem and so is another member, Dima. 

I have a hen who has periodically laid soft shelled or misshapen eggs over the years (she's 7 now). Generally, it was a periodic thing .. the occasional tiny egg, or one that wasn't fully formed -- but most of her eggs were normal. The vet wasn't all that worried about it -- said it just happens sometimes.

This past year, my hen started laying more and more that were soft shelled or partially shelled, and then her last two clutches were entirely shell-less. 

The very last clutch she laid, one of the eggs broke, and she passed the egg yolk and skin with a great deal of difficulty. 

At that point, I decided I needed to separate her from her mate and house her solo, or this problem would probably kill her ... and thankfully, she did stop laying after that. 

I followed that last egg with a round of Baytril to prevent infection -- but my hen is still pretty run down. Her eyes have lost their color, which presumably means anemia -- and she has a slight rattle to her breathing. Her feathers are dull and dry.

I've read all I can about soft shelled egg problems, and I just can't figure this one out ... She's been treated for coccidiosis recently (with furaltadone) , gets regular vitamin d and calcium supplements, and has had a round of baytril after the last clutch. 

I just treated all my birds with moxidectin-plus this week, in case the breathing/feather problems might be airsac mites -- we'll see where that gets me. I saw no visible sign of worms in anyone after the medication, and everyone tolerated the med well. They also got a thorough cleaning/disinfecting of all the hutches, and everyone has been de-mited with scalex. 

I currently have my hen on doxy/tylan for the continued breathing issues, and nystatin in her feed due to all the antibiotics of late. I have her in a carrier with heat at night. 

She's been treated for canker with spartrix and also with ronidazole. I see no signs of canker at all. She's eating and drinking fine, but remains somewhat weak and somewhat lethargic -- not her usual self. 

She, and one other of my birds, have minor congestion right now-- just snuffly breathing and a bit of mucus (no open beaks, but a little raspy) -- so they are both on the doxy/tylan.

Anyone have any suggestions here? 

I know that infectious bronchitis can cause eggs that are malformed, but her former mate (another hen) is perfectly fine, so I really doubt it is that. 

There is a duck adeno virus that seems like a possibility -- it causes low level symptoms and occasional egg problems.

She does seem to be improving, but slowly. 

She usually gets a multi-vitamin (not while on the doxy, since it has calcium), and I've just added magna-cell (iron tonic) for the suspected anemia. 

Is there something I might be overlooking? Or is this just a matter of waiting and continuing supportive care?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sometimes, they get a respiratory infection that is immune to all the drugs we typically use. I would take her off everything, give it 7 days medication free and have a culture done.
You said you treated her for canker with spartrix and ronidazole...have you tried metronidazole? Here in Oregon, spartrix hasn't bee successful treatment for years. It does work if combined with metronidazole. I haven't had great luck with ronidazole alone either.I usually treat for canker for 5-10 days, depending.
You said no sign of canker although a pigeon can have an internal canker infection that is not visible in the mouth or throat. So I do wonder if you used the best medication for canker, the right dose and if you gave the medication long enough.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

As far as I know, most "soft shell" problems are usually calcium & vitamin related (lack of). The "cycline" drugs all bind to calcium making them less effective which is why its recommended to remove any extra calcium supplements when using these drugs.
Just wondering if any of these drugs are maybe inhibiting her own calcium reserves.
Also, as mentioned before in a previous post, sunlight (uv rays) is an important factor in processing the vitamin D & calcium so maybe this is a hindering factor also ?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Actually, the vitamin D3 is a substitute for the direct contact with the sun. I take vitamin D too as do many Oregonians, during the short winter days to supplement the lack of sun.
I imagine the folks in Alaska need it too.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks, folks --

I am ordering some UV lamps for the bird areas -- the d3 helps, to be sure, but it can't hurt to have the additional UV lamps too. I think that was a suggestion well worth heeding. 

I've been supplementing her with calcium and d3 regularly -- I only have her off it right now because of the round of doxy -- and the egg problems long preceded that. I'll finish the doxy/ty round, and if the respiratory problems continue, I'll get the culture done. Whatever it is, is low level -- it isn't seeming to get any more severe, but it isn't resolving completely, either. 

I may have to try metronidazole -- I did a full seven days with the ronidazole, and three days running with the spartrix. I know there are invisible forms of canker, and that they can cause breathing issues (and that they tend to flare up when a bird is otherwise ill). I haven't seen any visible sign of it in her since she was a juvenile, but I still thought it best to treat. Her poops look good -- bright white urates, no odor, etc. 

I know that, for a while, the canker strains in this area weren't responding to metronidazole very well, which is why I keep the other drugs on hand as a general rule. 

I do think we're seeing gradual improvement in her overall state, but it's slow. 

This hen has always been a bit frail -- she and her nest mate were my first two pigeons, and I hand reared them from day 10 (feral rescues). Her health has always been shaky compared to my other birds ... she had to be removed from the main hutch because she was constantly being bullied, and I seem to fight off something with her every year -- usually supportive care alone is enough to turn it around. She's small in comparison to my other hens -- not underweight, just a small bird in general.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Minimonkey, how do the light bulbs look like? Just if it says on the package it's a UV light bulb would that be good? 
Indiana it's been up since she passed those skin like eggs and i give her in the mouth Ca& D3 once a day. She will soon lay eggs again. I hope CA & D3 will solve the problem. I will have to wait and see.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Quote." Birds’ skin is protected by feathers, so how do they get their vitamin D? Dr. Greg Burkett, DVM, of the Birdie Boutique in North Carolina said it has to do with a bird’s preening gland. “Birds have a unique way of producing vitamin D3. The oil for the preen gland contains a precursor to the vitamin. Birds spread the oil containing these precursors over the feathers. The precursor is activated and transformed into vitamin D3 by UVB light. When birds preen, they ingest the vitamin D3."
So I would go with UVB light.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have read that they can also get it when the sun shines on the skin around their eyes, and on their feet and legs.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

There are special UV lamps made for birds -- here are a couple of links...

http://birdsupplysales.ashopcart.com/catalogue.php?cat=63

http://www.petmountain.com/category/406/1/bird-lighting.html?gclid=CKDet63z-rICFcU-MgodUC8APQ

I'm shopping for the best price right now, since I need several of these ... the ones for reptiles often create heat and don't have the right balance of UV rays, so you want the ones specifically for birds.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I hope the calcium and vitamin D do the trick for Indiana ... I'm giving extra d3 and calcium to my hen, too -- even though they get it in their vitamins, I suspect it isn't enough to make up for the lack of sun.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> Quote." Birds’ skin is protected by feathers, so how do they get their vitamin D? Dr. Greg Burkett, DVM, of the Birdie Boutique in North Carolina said it has to do with a bird’s preening gland. “Birds have a unique way of producing vitamin D3. The oil for the preen gland contains a precursor to the vitamin. Birds spread the oil containing these precursors over the feathers. The precursor is activated and transformed into vitamin D3 by UVB light. When birds preen, they ingest the vitamin D3."
> So I would go with UVB light.


That is very interesting.. After laying, Krikky seemed to preen A LOT! She preens and preens and preens... I know for sure she no longer has mites, in fact, I've only just sprayed her. She has also been pecking on the floor, looking for something. As soon as I offer some _tiny _grit (parrot type, not the bigger pigeon grit), she gobbled the grit right out of my hand. 

And she keeps asking for more grit since her lay.

With extra grit consumed and the extra preening, could it mean she is producing extra calcium? Strange that these are all _after_ laying.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I had a hen who always laid soft shells. I gave her a round of eggs from another pair, she hatched and raised them. I didn't treat her with anything but gave her plenty of different grits, pink powder and this black powder stuff called Piminix. Its like charcole and oyster shell. She laid a few good eggs this season and she has a squab at the moment. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/soft-shell-eggs-help-57822.html?highlight=soft+shells 
This is the thread I started a while ago. I don't think flouride is a problem as none of my other birds have ever laid soft shells.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some people would rather buy from a shop in town then online. For those people, it's easier to find the reptile lights. As long as you buy the UVB 5.0, then you are getting the right amount of rays for your bird to utilize calcium. And sometimes less expensive to purchase these. So that gives these people another option.

UVB enables birds to synthesize vitamin D3 for proper calcium metabolism which is necessary for normal growth, maintenance of strong bones, and egg production. UVA is visible to birds, enabling them to recognize mates, locate food, and identify different species.

If all you are trying to do is to help your bird to utilize calcium, then the UVB lights would do that.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks, Jay! I'm new to the ultraviolet lighting world, so any advice is helpful. I figure I will go for the bird-specific ones, since I am making an investment in the lighting in any event. 

I gave my hen a vitamin d capsule yesterday (400 iu) and she doing markedly better today -- she may have been really deficient in vitamin d, despite regular supplementation in her vitamin mix. (I supplement myself with huge doses of vitamin d3, and my levels still test low, so I know it sometimes takes more than one might expect.)

I also switched from the doxy/ty to baytril, since neither of my raspy birds seemed to be getting anywhere at all with the doxy/ty after 5 days on it. They both sound a lot better today, so I think that was a good move ... I don't think the doxy/ty was hitting whatever was causing the respiratory problems. 

I try not to use antibiotics on my birds unless I have to, but respiratory infections can get severe very quickly, and I don't want to mess around there.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't think flouride is the problem with my hen, either, since all the others lay just fine.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Okay -- lighting ordered! Lots of money later, my little friends are all going to have indoor sunshine  I think this will make a big difference.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Good luck! I hope it works, do update us!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I will, thanks Miss Sassypants. At the very least, they'll all have brightly lit areas all winter long, and that has to be good for their moods, and hopefully their vitamin d levels too. 

My hen is on the mend, I think -- the supplemental vitamin d and/or the baytril are helping -- her breathing sounds better, and she's acting more like herself every day. 

I love this little hen an awful lot -- I've had her since she was ten days old (she hatched outside my window, and I saved her from the building management who were destroying nests.) She and her nestmate were my introduction to pigeons, and I was hooked after that. She's never been as hearty and healthy as my other birds, though ... I suspect she may have a weak immune system for some reason (a virus, maybe?)


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Thanks, Jay! I'm new to the ultraviolet lighting world, so any advice is helpful. I figure I will go for the bird-specific ones, since I am making an investment in the lighting in any event.
> 
> I gave my hen a vitamin d capsule yesterday (400 iu) and she doing markedly better today -- she may have been really deficient in vitamin d, despite regular supplementation in her vitamin mix. (I supplement myself with huge doses of vitamin d3, and my levels still test low, so I know it sometimes takes more than one might expect.)
> 
> ...


I hope you give her vit D3 & Ca. One without the other is useless.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

She's always gotten calcium supplements in addition to her grit (Calcium gluconate, in her water) but I do suspect she wasn't absorbing enough of it, perhaps due to a vitamin d deficiency. I thought the birds were getting enough D with the regular multivitamin supplements, but perhaps not...? I ordered some Calcivet (vitamin d and calcium syrup) that am now adding to the water for all my birds. I think the multivitamin just wasn't cutting it on the Vitamin D, without regular sunlight.

I've started doing a vitamin D capsule with the hen (400 iu) daily -- I'll continue that for another day or two, and then move to just using the calcivet regularly. My hen is going nuts with the grit right now so I suspect/hope she's able to use the calcium more effectively. (It's a mineral grit mixture, high in calcium, not just regular grit.) 

Vitamin D is important for the immune system, in addition to being necessary for calcium absorption. 

She's doing better every day, so something is working.


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