# Tragedy with the Feed Sack



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, almost one a.m.

I go outside to get a Can of Seeds form the Seed 50 lb Seed Bag, whose top I make damned sure to keep well folded in and effectively 'closed'...

I was gone just about all day today ( Tuesday), and or at any rate, I did not feed the feral today...so, the Bag had been closed since yesterday (Monday) dusk, when I last opened it.

Now, maybe I somehow was not paying attention 30 odd hours ago? - when I last got some seeds out, and had closed the Bag top by folding it in, or I do not know...

But just now, I undo the folded-in top, reach in, and there is a Pigeon in there, dazed and so stuffed he looks and feels like he swallowed an medium sized 'Orange'.

This freaked me out, since of course I was not expecting a Pigeon or anyone else to be in there...let alone that there WAS one in there.

So, I get him set up in a cage and offer him a little Water, which with some coaxing, he did lots of little sips of.

It has been over a hundred here, and if he was in there 30 odd hours, with the Bag out in the all day Sun and so on, I imagine he feels pretty lousy about now.

Then, I reach in the can to scoop some seeds, and I feel another Pigeon...this one does not move, I gently get him out, and he is deceased...eyes sunken, been dead for quite a few hours.

Damn...

What happenned???

Did I just NOT notice these two in there yesterday late afternoon when I fed the ferals just before sundown??? did I close the Bag in over them?

I am usually very careful about this since I know some of them CAN get into the Bag when it is open even for an instant...

Or???

Other people around here sometimes walk over, open the Bag and put some Seeds out also, but the Bag was folded and 'closed' like I do it, so...

This makes me so sad..how horrible for them to have been trapped in there like that...AND to be so outrageously over stuffed as the survivor is. The other who had died, was not especially stuffed...


Anyway, I mention this in case anyone else has a Seed Bag where somehow a Bird could get trapped in it if one folds the top down to close it up to keep the Birds OUT...

I will get a large Container with a lid...and from now on, use it for the bulk Seed...and be for sure more vigilant.

This is so ironic...

Poor things.

I hope this guy makes it. I have never seen a Crop so stuffed, let alone his likely dehydration and heat exhaustion.

At least he is standing, but just barely...

And I am scared about all those Seeds in his Crop...


Yours, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry this happened, Phil, you must feel terrible about it so thanks for the warning.

I use the 50 lb sacks of feed, I suppose that if the sack was half empty a pigeon could sneak in, but they would usually make their presence felt the moment the sack was disturbed.

I hope that the survivor recovers, I can't understand why he would stuff himself like that though, mostly they will only eat as much as they need.


Cynthia


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

The survivor probably swallowed against his will so much seed in an effort to try and get out. He probably couldn't help it if he was gasping for air and seed went inside his mouth.

I do hope this one makes it. Amazing how pigeons can find food and get themselves in so much trouble.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Phil, I am so sorry. I can only imagine how you feel.
I am sure this little one will make it. I am so sorry for the other one who didn't.
Thanks for the warning, we have to be careful with those little babies.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear about this terrible tragedy. 

I usually buy two fifty pounds bag of seed, one with corn and one without.

I put this in these giant plastic bins with rollers on them. I bought them from PetSmart, they have a seal proof lid and are easy to clean between filling, I do keep them inside however. They are actually made to put dry dog food in. You might check them out.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

What a tragedy! I'm so sorry! I know you must have been devastated!

HUGS TO YOU. 

I hope the stuffed one makes it!


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Phil, What a sad shock for you. I am so sorry. I use large aluminum lidded trash cans for my feed. Keeps feed safe and dry, and rodents can't get in to them either. My food is also kept in separate building.
Hope you little Piglet makes it. I know his "Daddy Phil" will do his best.
Big hug,
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, that is a tragedy and I am so sorry. It will take awhile for him to empty his crop but try to keep him hydrated as best you can. I sure hope he makes it.

Were they your indoor birds or the outdoor feral flock you feed? They must have gotten in the bag when you were not looking.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil, I'm so very sorry this happened .. what a freak accident! I sure hope the "stuffee" will pull through.

Terry


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## piney_creek (Jun 5, 2006)

That's horrible

PINEY


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...


Yahhh, these were outside feral Pigeons.

The Bag is about 1/2 full, so there was lots of room on top of the seeds where no one would have been really cramped with the folded-in top of the bag...


Well, 'Stuffy' seems m-a-y-b-e allright...no poops yet, but disposition is good, standing well, if leaning forward a little.

He is actually a very easy Bird, not skittish or worried about anything.

I will have him on ACV Water I think...just for good measure.

He was probably bored in there, and with nothing else to do, just way overdid the chow.


This whole scenario still does not make sense to me.

The one that had died, really, makes no sense. He looked like an otherwise healthy full weight Bird, clean vent, nice plumage, medium full Crop...

It was hot out, but not AS hot as it had routinely been, and too, being in the bag would have been a little cooler than being in the Sun where they usually are all day long. The top of the bag was folded in a particular way that hardly made it air tight or anything, but is just a way of folding one edge in from about ten inches down form the top edge, and the other edge over it, then the sides fold in slightly to keep the other two edged in place, to keep the Birds out. 

They can and do go without water for a day...so, it puzzles me, really, now that I think about it more...

I keep the Bag out side there because the Mice never bother it.

If I bring it in, the Mice gnaw holes from the bottom to get at the Seeds!

The field Mice that are natural to this area, graze the outside grounds in the evenings and night-time and so on, but somehow never bother the feed bag when it is outside there, so...

Golly...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Phil, I'm so sorry! I hate "freak" accidents that leave us feeling so bad. It doesn't sound like there's anything you could have done different but it still makes you feel rotton, like you wish you could turn back the clock. We all know how careful you are and how super you treat your birds. I use a big plastic container with a lid, only because my mom's dog eats the birdseed if I leave it in a bag rolleyes: ). Hope everything works out for Stuffy and try not to beat yourself up.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Glad Stuffy is doing ok. 
That was my thought too, since you described his a an easy going bird, he probably though "well, since there is nothing else to do let's eat our favourite seeds until dad Phil gets us out of here".

Is it possible the other unofortunate pij panicked and hurt hiself? Also, another thought, if he panicked and started jumping up and down, his oxygen requirements would have been higher and I imagine in the bag there wasn't all that much oxygen.
Who knows. It doesn't matter anyways now.

I am glad Stuffy is recovering.

Reti


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

If the other one did jump up and down panicking, he probably ended up sinking down more and more, suffocating. I imagine seed can be a lot like quicksand. The more you try to get out, the more you sink in. The poor thing. He probably just didn't know any better.

I hope Stuffy makes it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I honestly don't think that the one that died died a horrible death as envisaged.

As far as the pigeons were concerned they were in a quiet dark place, so their reaction should have been much as any bird put in a dark box...it is an environment that prevents them from panicking, they are still and quiet, that is why it is recommended for injured birds of all kinds. 

I don't know what seed Phil had in the sacks, but my pigeons love to jump into seed containers to eat and there is no quicksand effect there, I doubt that there would be that effect in a narrow sack, even if a bird did struggle,

As Phil said, how two pigeons got caught in the sack without being discovered when it was being closed and why one of them died so quickly is a mystery.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil, is there any chance that someone left you these two birds in there because they couldn't find you and knew that you'd find them in there?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...


That is possible...

But if someone had done this, taking for granted I would find the Birds-in-the-feed-sack...I sure wish they would have called or left a note...!


Anyway, the Bag being sort of folded closed at the top was far from air tight, and would not have compromised the oxygen requirements.

The deceased Bird seemed peaceful, and no signs of struggles having happenned. And yes, this puzzles me, and makes no sense to me that one of them would have died in there.

Even on the hottest days, when I reach in there to get Seeds, the Seeds are always a little cooler than the outside ambient temps, so really, inside the Bag should not have been too bad...

The Seeds are a nice Racing Homer mix, lots of various dried Peas and some Safflower and Milo and whatnot...


Anyway, 'Stuffy' is improving...!

After some little dribs of not-much for poo...but what was mostly urates...this morning I see five 'Jordan Almond' sized poops, all well formed and moist and indiciating heavy 'Canadian Pea' diet...Lol...meaning, the poops look like thick Split Pea Soup! But firm enough to stand on their own without slumping...


I was worried that his Crop might be SO full as to be effectively pinching off the egress from Crop to Stomach, so I had made an appointment for this morning with my Good-Guy-Vet-No. 1...thinking, if we needed to, we could just make a fast incision, empty the Crop and sew him back up and get him over this impasse...

His water has been the ACV-Water...to guard against yeats or similar getting going in there with this protracted Crop emptying...

But, seeing the poops starting now, I cancelled the appointment.

I have been offering the ACV-Water to him so I can monitor his drinking, allowing him smallish drinks a couple hours apart, with me holding the little Water Bowl. I fear those Seeds hydrating and bursting him...

Seems like he is bing adequately hydrated this way, and the urates and poops seems affirmatory.


Whew...!


I was sure worried about him...


Also, he threw up about eight large semi-hydrated Peas overnight....so, maybe he will throw up some more even...

Crop still feeld 'hard' and is the size of an average Orange just-about...

Maybe I will get an image him and post it soon so you can see.


Thanks all...

Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## piney_creek (Jun 5, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> 'Stuffy' is improving...!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas



"Stuffy" is one lucky duck...er.........uh............pidgey!

PINEY


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

My God Phil - the size of an orange? Now? Wow!


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Phil*

Gosh I am so sorry about what happened. Glad to hear the one is doing better. 


Andi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...


Well...'Knock-on-Wood', he is still improving.

Lots of nice poops...Crop is FINALLY assuming the consistance of a 'Bean Bag' now, and one can push gently on it and feel the Seeds 'give'...where before, it was so hard it was truely freightening...

When he was feeling so aweful, even though he is an adult, he would nuzzle my fingers when I gently massaged his Beak, and drink when I guided his Beak into the ACV-Water, he seemed really friendly, reverted to some 'Squeakerhood' phase of existance....and calm...dreamy even...

Now, he is feeling better and is getting WILD...Lol, which of course one sees usually with these guys and gals when they DO start feeling better...

So, he is tolerant, overall easy enough, but a little skittish now, compared to earlier...so..that is good, and a healthy sign...

Keep your fingers crossed...

So that in a week or so, I can give him some Seeds to eat...keep an eye on him a little more, and let him go...

I am SO glad that Crop has started to go 'down' and to become a little softer and resillient now...

I have seen some 'full' Crops, but this one took the Cake by far.


Best wishes!

Thanks all for your interest in his story...


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the positive update, Phil, I hope the rest of the seed goes through smoothly and quickly now.

Until you mentioned the orange as comparison I had no idea that the situation was so alarming. 

Cynthia


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Phil, when you first mentioned the two birds in the feed sack, I also wondered if someone hadn't put them there. 

You have such a great feel for knowing what they need in the way of support and assistance. I'm so glad the stuffed bird is dealing with the contents of his crop - onward or outward.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Thank you...

Well, by golly, with a cage full of poop dollops now, ready for a cleaning and fresh towell, he is staring to look like a normal, regular, usual Pigeon...instead of leaning forward looking like he'd swallowed an tennis-ball or 'Orange' or something.

Crop is about what would be half-full for anyone else, and feels supple and easy and does not seem to be sore or tender...

He has been on the ACV-Water ( actually, ACV-Berimax-Water) only, and seems overall doing very well.

I recon by Sunday, if not a little sooner, he might just enjoy a little meal...

Lol...

His initial poops were pretty well just urates, and soon they were showing 'yellow', so not knowing what the heck-all was going on with him, I did the Berimax-ACV-Water, and soon the poops started happenning, and with white urates, too...


He is a very nice Bird, as they all are of course...


So...thats the report for to-day...!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

So GLAD to hear Stuffy is doing so much better!  Look forward to his complete recovery!

You didn't happen to get a picture of the crop from hell, did you??? Would have been a good pic to use on how much NOT to feed a pij!!


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## christina11 (Jan 20, 2006)

I just read this and im glad its turning into a happy ending.  

Sorry for the other pigeon who knows what could have happened.

Well at least ''Stuffy'' is improving and hopefuly soon enough can be back in the wild.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mr squeaks, 


I don't know whats the matter with me, I sould have taken a picture of him...

Anyway, somehow I did not...

Looked kind of like a 'Pouter' is it? But standing horizontally instead of tall...


I know their Crops can of course expand quite a bit...are elastic in that way...but his seemed to be really tight as a drum, and very 'hard', and that scared me, thinking his Crop had reached it's limit of elastic accomidation, and or that the pressure inside was maybe pinching closed the passage from Crop to Stomach as well, especially since for a while there were no poops happenning.

This may have been from dehydration, or was partially from dehydration too, so...

I felt I was in a dilemma - give electrolytes, progressively, to re-hydrate him well, which would also start hydrating all those Seeds so they swell to three times their already unacceptable volume?

Or, allow small drinks of Water, which I hoped would mostly trickle down past the Seeds in get through his passage to his Stomach, while hydrating the Seeds themselves minimally...?

So I elected tha latter, and kept my fingers crossed...

When he did throw up about a dozen dried Peas, these Peas were not hydrated, or were very nearly the same as when 'dry' anyway...so this sort of affrimed my suspicion that he was stuffed full of 'dry' Seeds, (which being stuck in the bag for 30 hours of so would suggest, since he would have had no access to Water of course during that time) which if all those tightly packed Seeds were to become hydrated and start swelling, then that would have been truely disasterous...

I was thinking to go see my Vet and have him to an incision in the Crop to get the Seeds out...but when I finally say a bunch of 3/4 inch x 3/4 inch poops that morning, I elected to leave him be and let things take care of themselves.

So, as usualy with things, I just sort of made my guesses on what-to-do, and hoped for the best...!


Seeing yellow urates starting in when he was first in his Cage, with almost no poop with them, started me worrying about whether he had Canker effecting or blocking the passage from Crop to Stomach, in addition to whatever Seed worries...but thankfully that cleared up the next day sometime, after I elected to use the Berimax-ACV-Water for good measure, very soon after getting him in here for observation.

He was definitely not feeling well anyway...

Looks like a normal Pigeon now...feeling pretty good...looking good...

I will hang on to him another week or so, let him free rove in here in another couple days, then he can just fly back outside when he feels like it.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Many thanks, Phil! Stuffy is ONE LUCKY PIJ!!

You did a great job bringing him back to health!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, you did an outstanding job!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Well, he now looks like a regular slim happy Pigeon, standing tall and easy and poised.

So far from his leaning way over and looking miserable, not long ago...


I put him into a new fresh vacant Cage that has a better view, and also, I finally gently grabbed a very sweet feral (Hen I think) who for several days has night roosted about shoulder high outside here, and every night I would go out and stand next to her, and talk with her and so on, gently trying to see what might be the matter with her...and telling her how much fun it is inside here, if she wanted me to carry her in...

So tonight I walked out and scooped her up and brought her in. She is so sweet, has the most sensitive gentle face and eyes, her expression that just strains to understand what I am talking about as I talk with her...

Looks like she has some scab/scrape on her right Wing's frontmost bend, and when I had seen her fly in the day time, her flying looked weakish and like she did not want to do it...so, she can have some time of rest and good chow in here now, and hang out with Stuffy till his free rove time, which will be like tomorrow or something I suppose...otherwise she seems healthy and her weight and muscles and so on seem good...good poops, full crop from todays graze...nice plumage... she is also growing a lot of new half-length Tail Feathers, so maybe she escaped some predation scenario a while back and had managed somehow since...


Nightynight...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I use to have one of these on the back patio filled with dog food, *for the dogs*. Twice I found a pigeon in there. I don't know how they managed to get in because it does not push in that far with dog food behind it, but they did. I heard noises comming from the dog feeder not knowing what was going on. This was before I even gave pigeons much thought. The way the feeder was designed you couldn't just open up the lid and see what was going on, it was dog food. I had to take the thing apart before I knew what I was going to find. Luckily for them I wasn't gone for very long and was able to get them out. Dog feeder is gone.
I think if the pigeons know the routine and know where the food is they will find a way. Maybe if you fold over the seed bag you may try putting a brick on the top. Maybe a couple bricks there's some aggressive pijs out there.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Phil,

How nice of you to oblige the little hen and bring her inside for some R&R. She will be good company for Stuffy for the remainder of his time in rehab. 

You are indeed the PIGEON WHISPERER of Las Vegas!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I bet she is one you raised and came back to you for help. She may have worms or coccidiosis or both.


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

*Ha!*

Phil is playing the role of a matchmaker too!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, I bet she is one you raised and came back to you for help. She may have worms or coccidiosis or both.



Hi Maggie, 


I do not think I ever had this Pigeon before, or had raised her...I am sure she is a completely wild/feral one.

But yes, she might have some things which we can work on over the next couple weeks, for which I may just get a fecal analysis done.

I have a row of old Lockers that are about shoulder high, and this is a place which is usually elected by the outside Pigeons who are hurt or ill or not feeling well. That is, unless that is too high for them to make, in which case they can be in lower places too of course...so, every dusk or Sundown time, I go out and scan all over to see if anyone is sheepishly perched in some nook or hide-a-way out there.

As well as noteing occasional debutants who are just out of their near-by somewhere Nest, who follow their parents to graze in the courtyard, but do not graze at all for the first few days, where their parents still feed them, and they otherwise perch nervously and watch, then stay there come night fall...and of course they do not yet fly well enough to get enough altitude for anything higher for their night-roost time. Somtimes I gather these up and bring them in at night, then put them out the next day, and I just do that till they do fly well enough to make the roof or as may be.


She is one of those Pigeons who you can see is really trying to understand what you are saying, there is something so expressive in her eyes and face...how she looks at you.

Anyway, my reasoning for visiting her out there for like five nights in a row, just talking softly and so on, no hands of course or any thing crossing her boundaries...just me standing two feet away, was to assure her I was allright ( she had certainly seen me many times when I put the feed out for everyone to graze) and she seemed to accept that and aside from an itial protest/squirm, was really quite comfortable when I finally carried her in. 

She seems 85 percent interested and curious and trusting in me carying her and holding her up to see other Pigeons caged or free in here, when we made the initial rounds of how-de-do with everyone else, and she was easy with it, and only 15 percent nervous or worried or anxious. Where, usually, scooping up a feral like that, they are around 85 to 95 percent worried/nervous/anxious, and it takes a while for them to get easy with things and relax.


There are some feral Cats around here, but the top of the lockers would be hard for them to get to...and are slanted as well, making them slippery in their way for Cat feet.

Anyway, examining her further this morning, I am finding old scabbed punctures which seem like they had been fairly large, in addition to the many new half-length Tail Feathers growing in, so this does suggest he had been caught and mauled and bitten by a medium size Dog some time ago, and managed to escape and survive and mostly heal somehow on her own.

She was not enjoying the exam, Lol...so I will continue with it some more later sometime, and try and see if any of these old wounds need anything from me.

Well, golly...better get to work...gotta keep Seed on the table you know!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

SueC said:


> Phil is playing the role of a matchmaker too!



I try NOT to!

Lol...

But it is funny sometimes...

Last week, I had a feral who I had in a cage for a few weeks getting over whateveritwas ( I fogret now just what is was!) that was wrong with them...

And so I gently take them out of their Cage, and set them on the Cage top, to begin their free-rove time in here...so I can see how well they fly and land and so on for a while pending their release.

Anyway, a sceond later, 'Joe' ( who was a feral that showed up months ago, who had survived some truely terrible Dog mauling, and who had no tail whatever, as well as other problems and punctures, yet who was still flying and grazing and so on, healing on his own, even though his episode was likely at least a week previous, so his injuries while not fresh at all were still full of dried blood and so on, but who I was able to catch and bring in here where he got well, but his injury had been so severe on his back and tail area, ( I am so amazed he even lived) he never has grown a Tail, but grew new little body-type Feathers back there to fill it all in...and he adapted to that in his flying to where he is a great flier and does just fine..)


Well, 'Joe' who HAS a nice mate and is incubating Eggs with her in a nest they made in here, a Mate he met IN here ( Columbo, who had hit a 2nd sorey wondow some many months ago and was very badly injured, but who got well over time, but who I had not released yet oweing to the slow time of her neurological injuries taking months and months to heal)...so...

'Joe' flys right over and does his "I am a HANDSOME male! This is MY territory! See how nice it all is here! Mmmmm! " and 'she' appearently, immediatly assumes a 'low' dreamy pose, and Joe starts to mount her!


So I said, "No-No-No-No-No! Forget it! Jeeeeeeeze you two! Little whates-her-name ( no name) only JUST one second ago has been set OUT of her Cage to fly and finish up her convelesent time here! Give me a break!!! NO way am I gunna let you do this!!!!!"


Lol...so, I had to sort of keep an eye on her, AND on 'Joe' of course, scolding them laughingly and so on...waving my arms...

Really, I need to usher Joe and Columbo OUT OF HERE...they are fine now to resume their feral lives, and if it was not for their Nest and Egg sitting, I would have 'released' them already ( meaning, for THESE two, I have to carry them out and TOSS them and close the door!) 

I did not even know thay HAD built a Nest, till I happenned to notice finally their little hang out was always one or the other of them sitting 'low'...so I peeked...

Oh golly...what is one to do?


Oye...

Matchmaker indeed!

They do it in spite of me!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Phil, I'm so glad Stuffy is okay and the new girl decided to trust you enough to help her out. I love your stories!! Keep up the amazing work.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, have I ever told you how much I enjoy your posts? Well, consider it done!
You are a kind and gentle man.


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