# Help ..with new hatchlings please!



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Anyone, 

I have a pair of runt pigeons that have been completely unsuccesful at raising any young. My pair has just hatched some young for the first time in about 6 months. I fear that they are either being neglected, attacked or not fed and will die. They have hatched about 3 sets and all have died within a couple of days. I just found the male bird on the young and one wasn't even underneath him. My questions are should I intervene? I work full time so I cannot look after the babies myself all that much. Should I attempt to create a homemade incubator ? Has anyone ever heard of a male bird killing the young? I saw him pecking somewhat at the young underneath him and I've seen him do it before but I'm not sure what he is doing. I really feel helpless and some of you might remember what's gone on in the past with my birds. I just hate seeing them pass away like they have been. I'm really believing that the young are being neglected in some way which is causing them to die. Should I attempt to feed them and then put them back under the adult birds? If they could just live a little longer maybe they wouldn't be so easily harmed by these large adult birds. I just keep hoping that one of these times, they will get it right but I have serious doubts again ....Any ideas....anyone??? I don't have any other birds for fostering either


Brad


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Assuming you have made sure there is no salmonella in the parents, you could try the self brooding route since a small percentage of birds are highly flawed in this job. When they are pecking down it is not always easy to see if they are feeding, moving things about or pecking. If the birds are hatching you could get a brooder for a first class chance at success (here ya go http://www.petiatric.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9 ). You could get the job done without a brooder but the feeding needs to occur very often once it starts on day 2. If you got babies to gain a little size it would be intersting to see if the parents would feed them.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Brad,

Several things could be causing your problem - eliminate the factors you can. Make sure you are providing adequate housing and diet. Stress can allow sub-clinical levels of disease, enough to keep new hatchlings from thriving, but not kill adults. Be sure your adult birds have had all the preventive treatments for whatever diseases are common in your area. You can search this site for more information, but PMV, pox, canker, worms, and coccidiosis are the main ones. (In my area, pox in not common, but salmonella and E. coli are.)

As you are aware, sometimes it takes a pair several clutches to learn how to raise viable babies. There is also an inherited portion, and some bloodlines in some breeds have not been bred for good parenting skills. Perhaps you could check with the breeder of your birds to see if this is normal behavior for this line.

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Terri B

[This message has been edited by TerriB (edited April 18, 2004).]


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello Brad,

Sorry to hear about the sad news...









Did you have any tests done at the vet to rule out salmonellosis in the babies or in Henny and Eggbert?

I hope there is a solution to this problem.. I've never seen a bad parent unless it's a single pigeon who is raising the young then s/he gets abit stressed and can neglect he young (remember Tooty's mom?)

I'm also noticing that Dotty and Pearl are not doing such a good job with their eggs like before, even though they are fake.. Sometimes I come in the room and see Dotty sitting in the lovely nest BUT one egg is about a foot away from the nest on one side and the other is all the way on the opposite side and he doesn't realize it









I'm actually thinking if I did let their eggs hatch maybe their babies wouldn't come out normal or something!!

I hope we can figure out the real problem is going on with your birds.. the root of the problem is still unknown.

Keep us posted

Mary




[This message has been edited by maryco (edited April 18, 2004).]


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Dano, Terri and Mary for the responses, ideas and suggestions. Unfortunately, the babies were both dead this morning when I got home from work. The absolute worst part with all of this, is the females' determination and utter saddness over the loss. She continues to sit on the dead chicks not realizing that they have died and I have to force her off the nest and "steal" her babies. Surely she must think that I'm killing her offspring and she will fight with everything in her to protect them. She also get extremely distraught after I remove them. She will spend most of the day looking for them now







Terri, my birds are indoor birds not exposed to outdoor diseases and are just two. Also, they have been treated numerous time for numerous things over the years as well as many vet trips to various vet practitioners. I've just had horrible luck with the babies and getting the professional help through a vet who knows what they are doing. I know that you didn't know this background information when you wrote your reply. Sound advice though absolutely. Mary, I'm going to call my current vet again and see about having a necropsy done on the young this time, specifically looking for salmonella. But if they do end up testing positive for salmonella, does that mean that every young they produce will die? I wouldn't think that every single baby would succomb. This was their 4th set of offspring that hatched. All have died within a day or two of being born. The thing is...I have treated my birds in the past with a 3 week course of baytril and I've also treated them with another antibiotic specifically for salmonella from Foy's as well (a european product). I also tried a natural remedy from Foy's called "salm-bloc" that claims high success on salmonella. It's just heartbreaking to see my hen go through this so many times. Well, depending upon what happens from the necropsy from the vet (who I don't trust after she INSISTED paratyphoid was the same as paramyxo virus), I may just have to give up on babies and remove every set and replace with wooden ones. I have no other vets to try after being through 3 others, all avian vets and all with very poor knowledge of pigeons. This one so far knows the most about pigeons but that isn't say a whole lot. Perhaps if the results come back negative on salmonella/paratyphoid I will pursue getting a second pair of pigeons in the future to act as surrogates for my Runt pair. I really only ever wanted 1 set of young from my runts as I'm sure my pair would feel "useful and successful" in raising a set for themselves. Pigeons are meant to breed and love families and I certainly never thought in a million years that I'd have a problem breeding them. Most people with pigeons have to try to prevent so many births. (sigh)


Thanks everyone,

Brad

[This message has been edited by Pigeonpal2002 (edited April 19, 2004).]


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I just called the vet, the total cost for the necropsy is $291.00 and may not be conclusive. That is an awful lot of money for a unsure answer










Brad


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Brad,

I'm so very sorry that another pair of babies has been lost. I truly do wish someone could provide you with a definite answer to what is happening. $291.00 =is= a pretty high price for a necropsy .. if that is out of the question perhaps the next set of babies could have supplemental feedings from you and also given Baytril on the guess that it is paratyphoid (salmonella) that is killing them.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Brad,
I am so sorry that all your babies died. It must be terrible for their mom. I don't know what to tell you.
I have a very competent vet, actually they are two of them, they are avian vets and love pigeons. They do charge a lot of money, but they do a GREAT job in saving babies.
I can give you their web site if you are interested. You can call them or email them and hopefully they can give you some suggestions and you could have the parents tested for at your vet.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Here is the website: www.avianexotic.com


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Brad,

I'm so sorry your babies died, this is such a heartbreak, and I can understand the hen feeling so sad, it is such an all important job thay pigeons put their everything into brooding, hatching and caring for the youngsters. They are so serious and determined to brood. I see it in my hens. 

I do suggest, though, that you put their brooding on hold for awhile, until you get to the bottom of this. Also, since they have been on antibiotics, they should be off the drugs awhile before starting the breeding.

Also, tell me about their nutrition program, what are they taking? Vitamins minerals, brewers yeast, garlic, probiotics, grit,picking cake? Besides pigeon seed, what else do they eat?

If they are indoors, do they have the opportunity to go outside? Are these birds pets, did you hand raise mom and dad? or how old were they when you got them and where did you get them?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but they will help to get to the bottom of this.

Treesa


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

That is very expensive, Your vets don't sound very good.

My vet in oakville is really not bad, why don't you try him out? If you are interested I can give you the info.

I've seen salmonella (I believe that's what it was, all the symptoms matched perfectly) in quite afew birds.. It spread on the balcony though I think only one hen actually 'had' it.. She had a real hard time laying her eggs and they were always way too tiny, afew times she tried but they didn't hatch, then when they did the babies died quite young 8-13 days old.
I'm not sure if your birds actually have this or not, your vet must really be confused if she thinks Salmonellosis and Paramyxovirus are the same, where on earth did she learn to be a vet?!?!??!

Have your babies even been raised by you? 
You should try it once, this will rule out anything that has to do with the parents harming them..etc.
It will take about 15-17 days and the babies don't need to be fed at night.. it's quite easy. 

Mary


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Thanks again for all the responses and replies. Hi Terry and yes, it is sad to have lost another set. It's been about 8 months since their last set hatched and was lost. Can you give baytril to day old chicks? They are so tiny and fragile when first born I doubt I could effectively even supplement the chicks feedings as I have absolutely no experience doing this. I think I could do it if they babies were 3-5 days old but newborns totally scare me. My current vet tested for salmonella in the adults droppings almost a year ago and said it was negative. I just don't know if I can afford $291 for a non conclusive necropsy from a vet who I don't really trust her competency. Thanks for the suggestions and for caring though.

Hi Reti: Thanks for your input. I'm in Canada and I'm not so sure that your vet would be willing to help me online or over the phone. It's very difficult for any of us to guess at illnesses as it is just by listening to symptoms and descriptions of what is going on without being there to see or having hands on access to the bird. Here, I've been to 4 vets and they have tested for various different things each. From fecal floats, throat swabs, and some blood tests. Salmonella was tested twice and came up negative both times from two different vets....again, not saying much since I don't trust them. Thanks for trying though.

Hi Treesa: Thanks as well for your condolences. That really is the part that gets me the most....my hen and her OBVIOUS distress and sadness over her losses. And it's also heartbreaking to have to remove the little bodies each time. The fact that they hatch successfully, only to die a day later. I keep thinking, each time I have a set that successfully hatches without a problem, that these ones may live. My birds are giant runts. I have only the 1 pair and no other animals. They are kept indoors in my basement which is large, has windows, access to fresh air plus full spectrum lighting. They are never outside however except for short periods during the summer. My hen is approx. 3.5-4 years old and my male is 2 years old. He is banded, she is not but the breeder I bought her from said he was fairly certain of her age. They came from a breeder here in Canada who has a huge farm with lots of animals and pigeons of various breeds. He kept his birds in very bad conditions (in my opinion) but did have the different pigeon breeds housed separately, outdoors in large pens. He has a good reputation as a breeder surprisingly because I've enquired about him from a number of other fanciers. I remember seeing mice running around in the pens when I was there and the pens were dirty and unkempt. I'm not a novice with pigeons and I know what look for when picking out what seems to be a healthy bird in general terms such as body weight, eyes and plumage. Oh man, this is such a long story....I know you want to hear all the details but it really is a lot of information to give. He told me that his birds were vaccinated though when I asked him about it at the time. My hen did have worms and gave them to another bird I had before the hen and he ended up dying from complications from that. At that time I didn't really know a lot about medicines or what I needed to treat various diseases and parasitic infestations. Through my prior experience with pigeons as a kid, I never encountered any problems at all and my birds were never sick and never had problems with babies and/or brooding. I had to learn about diseases and problems since having these birds and get the proper medications I've needed. The medications I have are Amprolium, Ivermectin, carnidizol, baytril, enroxicillin, and liquid sulpha. I have brewers yeast tablets, probiotics, garlic juice with vitamins K, D3, E and other minerals, apple cider vinegar, and liquid calcium. Their feed is a mixed pigeon feed that contains peas, wheat, milo, barley, rice, canary seed, hemp, safflower and oats. I add popcorn and the vitaminized pigeon pellets to this mix myself in about a 10% ratio. They are given a canker pill, ivermectin and amprol once a year now. However they haven't had any antibiotics now in over 6 months. I rotate the things I put in the water. I put apple cider vinegar in the water once a week, garlic juice with vitamins twice a week, probiotics- once a month, and the liquid calcium once/month. I used to use 2 different grits, the red grit and oyster shell grit. However they preferred the red grit and ate WAY too much of it so now I just use the oystershell grit. The breed as a whole isn't easy to breed due to weight issues, and general behaviours. My birds aren't all that heavy though at about 2 lbs. each and have never broken any of their eggs which is common with this breed apparently. I've tried various nesting materials and boxes and softness to ensure that the babies weren't being squashed. They hen lays eggs regularly, without difficulty and they are never thin shelled or small. However, she did go through a 6 month period from about Aug 03-Feb 04 where she didn't lay at all. Since then she's layed 3 sets, 2 of which they broke because of where they layed them and they fell. This was the 3rd set and the only set since last summer to be incubated to term and hatched. I think I have given all the relevant info at this time and I'm sure you will probably be as dumbfounded as everyone is who knows about my birds. I wrote this for you and to give a bit more indepth background to others that only got pieces of what has gone on. I am definitely taking your advice and putting their breeding on hold again. I'll be replacing their eggs with wooden ones from here on out. Thanks for inquiring and thanks for trying to help Treesa.

Mary: Thanks Mary, it's always been so sad and so hard for me throughout this entire journey with my birds. I feel that I've done almost everything that I could possibly do to ensure the health of my runts and provide them with everything that they've needed to be successful in brooding. As you know, with all the medications I've bought, the vets I've been through, and time spent worrying, I've given these birds the best life I can. I'm still unsure if my situation fits what you have said though since the babies never have lived past 3 days. And do you know if salmonella kills EVERY time? Does every young born from infected parents succumb? I have NO idea where my vet got her training from or why she insists that paratyphoid is another name for paramyxo virus. I lost all faith in her after that. She is a good, caring woman however and has treated pigeons before since she works for a zoo. Actually she was recommended to me from someone here in pigeons.com from our area. I have never attempted to intervene with any of the young Mary. Other than to look in on them and try to see if they are being looked after by the parents. But if you remember, I work a full time job on the graveyard shift. I have to sleep during the day so I'm not around enough to look after such newly hatched chicks. I would be able to take them to work with me at night, but I don't think that would work. Pigeon babies sleep during the night. I have to consider whether or not I can afford to spend $300 for a necropsy that might not give any answers. But in the meantime, it's wooden eggs and I just have to accept that for now I think. Perhaps, sometime down the road I will get an established breeding pair of homers and see if they can raise a set of my runts young. If the babies died from a reliable breeding pair, then I would know for sure it is some kind of disease or genetic factor that is causing this. At that point I will know that this pair of runts are simply not capable of reproducing and I will accept that. 


Thanks, 

Brad


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Hi Brad,

I have followed along and I can appreciate how hard you have worked to give your birds the best support you could--great job. The nutritional package appears excellent but since they are in a basement they are certainly under sunned (not to mention you live in a part of the world where the sun needs to be supplimented whether you are a bird or a human). Because of this I would give them a few drops of cod liver oil in the month. I know you give them vitamins but when it comes to vitamins A & D you can't beat cod liver oil with a processed product. It is not related to the current problem but sunlight also helps control external parasites so I hope you give them a permethrin based spray or dip. 

Since you want babies, why not keep the next one's rather than discarding them? Brooding them gives you some chance rather than no chance. Spend the money on a rehaber, breeder, or other conscientous person nearby who can do the feeding for a week or two (it's not that technical). This gives you a chance to get some babies and it also could answer major qquestions in the present mystery. If it worked you could give the babies back to the hen around 10 days plus or minus.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Brad, I'm so sorry about your loss, and the frustration of doing everything you can to diagnose and medicate this pair, and yet still have babies die. 

I don't know if it helps, but all our chicks started dying a couple years ago. Every single one--we lost about 12 in all. (From 6 pairs). Everyone I talked to said it sounded like Salmonella. We finally had a necropsy done on a chick. They charged us $200 and told us "an intestinal bacterial infection killed it." We were very frustrated to not get a definitive diagnosis. 

I proceeded assuming we did have Salmonella/Paratyphoid, treated them all with Baytril and then vaccinated everyone with Sal Bac. That seemed to do the trick, because all the chicks after that lived. did you vaccinate? The vet told me if they test positive for Salmonella, they can continue to carry it after being treated. Vaccinating seemed to make the difference for us. 

Could you possibly get a pair of homers and use them to foster the chicks? Or are they too big for that to work?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Dano, Birdmom, 


Thanks for both the responses and great input. Dano, no they don’t get proper sun it’s true. I do however have full spectrum lighting that contains similar colours of light that the sun has. I know it’s not the sun nor can it replace that but I was hoping with the lights and the vitamins I give them, they would be ok. I do have cod liver oil gel caps (human grade) but I haven’t given them any in a long time. I will try that again. Regarding external parasites...the birds were treated when I got them for about a month each with sevin dust. Also, the ivermectin I use also kills external parasites as well. 3-4 drops on the back of the neck eliminates external and internal parasites. I like your idea of finding a rehabber or someone to try to raise the young but the few rehabbers I’ve asked in the past said no....they just simply refused to do that. I only know of one pigeon fancier in my area but not well enough to ask him to do this. It could be an option down the road though. Thanks for the great ideas and feedback.

Bird mom: No, I have never vaccinated my birds and for 3 reasons: 1) I was told they were vaccinated by the breeder. 2) I was under the impression that this had to be done when they were young and if they had already contracted paratyphoid, it was too late to vaccinate. 3) I have no experience with this and I’d be afraid of hurting them. I know for a fact though that the vets I’ve been to will not do it. They say that tests have to be conclusive in order to vaccinate under their moral code as vets. And since they say my birds don’t have salmonella, no vaccinating by them. If you are correct about this, this is something I would be very interested in looking into though. And your idea about getting a foster pair of homers is a good idea and would work. It’s something that I have considered possibly down the road. Thanks for the response and suggestions. I really appreciate the brainstorming and ideas. 


Thanks again, 

Brad


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello Brad,

You know I would gladly raise your babies for you if I had the chance.. Infact I would love to do it..
If there is no disease problem at all I wouldn't even think twice.

I'm hoping that this is not a problem with salmonellosis as that is quite serious and this might happen all the time with all the chicks... 
Do Runts raise their young? Or are they one of those breeds that their babies must be raised for them?

I remember the short beak breeds (german owls) have to have their babies fed then returned to them when they learn how to eat seed on their own.

Mary


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Good morning Mary, 

We've had this discussion before about your raising my birds' chicks. I completely appreciate your genuine offer but since we don't know what is wrong, we agreed not to let Tooty and Dotty raise them. The only way it could work is if you hand raised them yourself and you'd have to observe strict quarantine protocols for your own birds sake. If it would be alright with you under those circumstances, I would be thrilled to give that a try. Now are you talking about you incubating the eggs as well...or just looking after the chicks after they hatch? Do you have an incubator? The next time my birds lay I could replace them with wooden ones and bring the real ones to you. Or I could also wait until they hatch and hope I could get them to you fast enough. In any case, think about it and let's see what other members say about this option. 


Thanks a lot for offering Mary, 

Brad

Oh and yes, runts do raise their own young when they are fit parents. They have a proportionate beak and that part isn't an issue.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello Brad,

I don't think Dotty and Pearl are fit for raising babies, Pearl has never done it before and they might not do it right, already they are abandoning their eggs on and off and sometimes even sitting in the nest with 2 eggs totally out of the nest..









I would be raising the babies by hand feeding myself, I'm used to this and hopefully it will be ok.

Hand fed (not tube fed) babies are very tame, once they are about 15 days then I can tube feed but when they are young it's best to hand feed if you want a very bonding baby (tube feeding takes 4 seconds per feeding, not much bonding!)

Your birds would have to incubate the eggs and once they hatch or even if they are still inside the egg but are about to hatch you can bring them over and I'll hand raise them and see how it goes.
Another note is about the feeding formula, I fed Tooty with a baby bird formula and he turned out ok, is that what you want? 

Right now I got 6 baby squeakers in our living room.. I found 4 babies squished in one corner yesterday evening after being blown off their balconies by the hard wings and storm, another baby was on a bedroom window of the first floor and I already had one baby inside our apt from the day before (very skinny) Six babies all together!










Mary










p.s You can email me at [email protected] 

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited April 20, 2004).]


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