# Black and Grizzle



## fastpitch dad

What will you get if you breed . will you get a black and a grizzle.
The hen is black and cock is a very white grizzle.


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## jbangelfish

*Depends on the grizzle*

What color is the grizzle? Being very white probably means that it is a homozygous grizzle, then all young would be grizzles but the color will depend on dad to a degree. If his color is black, you should get all black mottles or grizzles. Black (spread blue) tends to suppress grizzle to a point of mottling, as opposed to grizzle. Remember, white is not a color, it is the lack of color and the bird's genetic color is whatever color is present, whether you can see it or not.

Bill


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## fastpitch dad

the cock is the one in my avatar the hen is a black bird


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## Lovebirds

fastpitch dad said:


> the cock is the one in my avatar the hen is a black bird


You can't mate a Black Bird and a pigeon!!!!


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## fastpitch dad

Lovebirds said:


> You can't mate a Black Bird and a pigeon!!!!


LOL yeah your right........OK the black pigeon


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## spirit wings

Lovebirds said:


> You can't mate a Black Bird and a pigeon!!!!


...lol......


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## fastpitch dad

So the young would from a grizzle cock and a black hen would be mottle. is that always or just some of the time .


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## jbangelfish

*He looks to be homozygous grizzle*

This makes stork marked birds and he may get whiter over time. If he is a homozygous grizzle, all his babies will be grizzles. With the black hen, they would all be heterozygous grizzles and have more black than dad. Black makes them more mottled than grizzled but it's the same gene. 

If he's not homozygous, they would have both grizzles and blacks. 

Bill


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## fastpitch dad

Thanks for the help Bill


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## NetRider

fastpitch dad, I have a pair like the one you described. A grizzle cock with a lot of white mated to a black hen. (in fact the cock looks almost like the one in your avatar). So far they have given me offsprings with three different colors.

They either produce a pure black bird, a blue bar, or a grizzle. All blacks so far have been hens, the blue bars were also all hens, while all the grizzles were cocks. Maybe just a coincidence, who knows


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## MaryOfExeter

Black is spread blue. If she was homozygous for spread, then all the babies would be black. If heterozygous, then half would be black, half blue. Because only some of the babies were grizzle, that means the dad was het. grizzle. If he was ****. grizzle, all babies would be grizzled.

As for certain birds being a certain color, I'm not sure but I think that part is a coincidence.
Or at least if I remember right.


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## jbangelfish

*You are right Becky*

Very good.

I didn't mention that blacks can carry blue as they are in fact blue, just spread. They could produce anything from black to t pattern blue all the way down to barless blue, depending on what they are split for.

As you say, in the Norway bird, the grizzle is heterozygous. To me, the one we've been discussing, looks homozygous grizzle but it is possible that it is het.

Also, as you say, the color and sex are purely coincidential as none of these genes are sex linked. 

These pigeons could produce many other colors and modifiers if they carry them such as recessive red, dilute or a host of other factors. I have maybe tried to keep it too simple and assume that they are black and black only. They could in fact carry many other colors and genes.

Bill


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## fastpitch dad

*update*

The grizzle x black pair only had one good egg. The first colors are coming out . I guess in a week or so we'll know what it is going to look like.


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## spirit wings

That is intersesting, glad you followed up on the thread....baby should grow quick, can't wait to see those feathers.


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## TAWhatley

Very cute baby! The down seems to be sparse which I think means something color/genetics wise .. I just don't happen to remember what that might be! 

Terry


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## george simon

fastpitch dad said:


> The grizzle x black pair only had one good egg. The first colors are coming out . I guess in a week or so we'll know what it is going to look like.


 HI FASTPITCH, I think from what I can see this is going to be mottle looks to me that the tail will be black and the primary flights seen to look like they will also show black. The secondary flights show white and I believe black in two or three days we will know for sure. ...GEORGE


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## fastpitch dad

george simon said:


> HI FASTPITCH, I think from what I can see this is going to be mottle looks to me that the tail will be black and the primary flights seen to look like they will also show black. The secondary flights show white and I believe black in two or three days we will know for sure. ...GEORGE


I hope so, that is what I was shooting for. I'll post some more pics in a few days. This genetic stuff is way over my head. This bird will probably be a gift if it turns out to be a mottle. I have a friend that helped me get started in raceing and he loves grizzles but has never had a mottle.
Becky has been a big help with explaining things to me, we're in the same club.


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## jbangelfish

*Looks to be a stork mark*

This is homozygous grizzle, pretty birds. They tend to get lighter (more white) in moults but can retain the black tails and wingtips or even more.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

TAWhatley said:


> Very cute baby! The down seems to be sparse which I think means something color/genetics wise .. I just don't happen to remember what that might be!
> 
> Terry


The less down in this case means it'll have a lot of white.
White and dilute can cause shorter/less down.


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## fastpitch dad

> Looks to be a stork mark


Ok explain stork mark. 
I think Becky maybe right , it looks like more white is popping out.
I'll take some more pics in a day or so.


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## jbangelfish

*Looks like the Storks in Europe*

The dark wingtips and tail against a white bird is how they chose the name. They come from two doses of the grizzle gene (homozygous). They do tend to get more white over time but can keep the black tips and tails.

These birds can be made in any color but ash reds tend to be more white than blues, browns, recessive reds or yellows. This is how most pure white pigeons were originally made, ash red homozygous grizzles.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

Here's some of mine


This one was from George (far left). The picture was from when I first got it. See how the bird is mostly white with black dipped flights and tail?








Well here she is now. You wouldn't think it was the same bird. Grizzles can change a good bit, but still keep those darker flights and tail.










And the others


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## fastpitch dad

*Latest Pics*

Here are the latest pictures of the baby, in another week he/she should be "fully clothed".....lol


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## fastpitch dad

Do you think he/she will molt out and be as white as the Dad.
Here's a picture of mom and dad.


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## jbangelfish

*Nope*

Not after seeing mom and dad. Dad looks to be homozygous grizzle, mom is not grizzled, this makes 100% normal (heterozygous) grizzles.

Bill


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## Kimberly_CA

Cutie baby!

When I bred a black spread cock with some bronzing to a completely white homozygous grizzle (with one spot of black on her tail) I ended up with a dark dark tort grizzle.

parents -









Don't have a decent pic of the baby but he is the darkest one in this pic -


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## jbangelfish

*Hi Kimberly*

I don't think your bird is spread. Spread birds don't usually show bronze. I think it's a t pattern blue with dirty factor and bronze. This makes them very dark and hard to tell from a true black (spread blue). The white rump is one sign of dirty on birds that are not spread as well. Dirty doesn't do this on spread birds either, they just become even blacker. Black feet will tell you on the young birds if dirty is present but it goes away as they mature.

Bill


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## fastpitch dad

I also have a black hen mated to a check. will some of them be black or will they be check's.


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## jbangelfish

*Yes, you should*

I don't know if you have spread blue (true black) or t pattern blue which most homer people call black but in either case, you should get at least some young like the spread or t pattern as they are dominant over check. If the bird is homozygous (pure) for spread or t pattern, then all of it's young will be spread or t pattern. If heterozygous (split) then half of them should be. 

Bill


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## fastpitch dad

Here's the birds. The black hen is from the hen above and a black cock (last years mateing)
View attachment 11616


View attachment 11617


Next ?....If I pair a Mottle to a solid black will they all be grizzles and/or mottles. My guess is yes, and will they be darker grizzles.


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## jbangelfish

*Nope, doesn't work that way*



fastpitch dad said:


> Here's the birds. The black hen is from the hen above and a black cock (last years mateing)
> View attachment 11616
> 
> 
> View attachment 11617
> 
> 
> Next ?....If I pair a Mottle to a solid black will they all be grizzles and/or mottles. My guess is yes, and will they be darker grizzles.



If the grizzle was homozygous grizzle, then all young will be grizzle but as discussed earlier, the homozygous birds tend to be stork marked or even more white. Typical grizzle to non grizzle makes 50% grizzle babies and 50% non grizzles.

I also do not think you have spread blues (blacks) but have t pattern blues, many call them black check, blue tail black etc. Homer people just tend to call them blacks.

If the blue check youngster came from one of your t pattern blues, it is het for t pattern and probably het for check. That would be the parent bird, the check can not carry t pattern.

Bill


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## fastpitch dad

jbangelfish said:


> If the grizzle was homozygous grizzle, then all young will be grizzle but as discussed earlier, the homozygous birds tend to be stork marked or even more white. Typical grizzle to non grizzle makes 50% grizzle babies and 50% non grizzles


.

These would not be sex linked, since they are 50/50 right



> I also do not think you have spread blues (blacks) but have t pattern blues, many call them black check, blue tail black etc. Homer people just tend to call them blacks


.

Is there anyway to tell if they are spread or T pattern ( wing or tail )

I 've got a ? about pied/splash I'll start another thread.


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## Pegasus

fastpitch dad said:


> the cock is the one in my avatar the hen is a black bird


You got me  on this one too...Just to make it clear for everybody, they usually call black pigeon the black diamond, am I right?

To answer what will you get, well I think you will have or might have a Checkerds of what ever dominating colors...Most likely it will be darker color than the lighter ones...


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## MaryOfExeter

Pegasus said:


> You got me  on this one too...Just to make it clear for everybody, they usually call black pigeon the black diamond, am I right?
> 
> To answer what will you get, well I think you will have or might have a Checkerds of what ever dominating colors...Most likely it will be darker color than the lighter ones...


Black Diamonds are a strain of racing pigeon who are typically black, yes. But there are blue "Black Diamonds" as well


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## MaryOfExeter

fastpitch dad said:


> Here's the birds. The black hen is from the hen above and a black cock (last years mateing)
> View attachment 11616
> 
> 
> View attachment 11617
> 
> 
> Next ?....If I pair a Mottle to a solid black will they all be grizzles and/or mottles. My guess is yes, and will they be darker grizzles.


Yes if you pair a mottle to a solid black, the babies that are grizzles, will have black and white feathers.

The way to tell the difference between t-patterns and spread, is that spread causes the wing bars AND tail bar to disappear. T-pattern, or velvet, can cause the wing shield to look solid black, but the tail will look like that of a normal blue bar or check. The bar will be very clearly visible. Also t-patterns also have little "T"'s of light color on the shield feathers.

I would say more but I have to leave. And Darby, I need to come see your birds


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## g0ldenb0y55

fastpitch - do you have updated pictures of the YB? I would love to see what it looks like now.


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## jbangelfish

*Grizzle is not sex-linked*



fastpitch dad said:


> .
> 
> These would not be sex linked, since they are 50/50 right
> 
> .
> 
> Is there anyway to tell if they are spread or T pattern ( wing or tail )
> 
> I 've got a ? about pied/splash I'll start another thread.


The grizzles and normals should be roughly equally distributed among males and females.

Becky pretty well cleared up the t pattern vs spread but dark t patterns with dirty and other modifiers can appear as black or spread. It usually takes some bronze to get them to this point like archangels. To make it further complicated, some spreads can show a slight pattern. Without any other modifiers, spread is pretty easy to tell from t pattern in both wing and tail. The tail is the best indicator as spreads will not show a bar, it will just be all black.

Bill


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## g0ldenb0y55

Bill you know this stuff like the back of your hand!

....oh and miss Becky too!


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## Lovebirds

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Bill you know this stuff like the back of your hand!
> 
> ....oh and miss Becky too!


I don't think I know the back of my hand that good.........LOL


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## george simon

*Lets See The Latest Pic*



fastpitch dad said:


> Do you think he/she will molt out and be as white as the Dad.
> Here's a picture of mom and dad.


 Hi FASTPITCH, Well that youngster should be fully grown and feathered out so its time that you posted a up to date picture, .....GEORGE


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## fastpitch dad

I'll try to get some this weekend.


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## Silontour

Hi.i mated a grizzle cock to a pure black hen. In 3 nests I got 3 black 2 black grizzles and 1 white grizzle. All the blacks are hens.hope this helps


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