# medication question



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

We rescued a sick baby pigeon yesterday (Pio is his name), and the the pigeon was seen at the vet today, diagnosed with yeast and worms.

This is what was prescribed: 
Panacur 0.1 ml daily for 7 days
Albon 0.1 ml twice daily for 7 days 
Nystatin 0.5 ml twice daily for 7 days 

7 days of Panacur seems like an awful lot, and even more so for a baby who is most likely 4-5 weeks old. I wasn't at the vet, but the instructions are written. What should we do? 

Sabina


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Absolutely not. Seven days of Panacur might kill him.
I wouldn't give it more than three days. That is what my vet prescribes. Even with three days of Panacur they can get pretty sick sometimes. I had it happen to a few.
I prefer Ivomec now. It is less toxic

Reti


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I spoke to Fred (expert rehabber), and we decided to hold the Panacur until I call the vet tomorrow to discuss dose, length of treatment and potential toxicity issues. Such a young skinny bird, I really don't know that I want to give it at all. So I'm going to ask also about possible alternatives. Fred actually said he generally doesn't de-worm under 8 wks of age. 
Any other input is still welcome.
Thanks!
Sabina


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Veterinary FormularyFenbendazole: can, fel-50 mg/kg PO SID x 3d, bov-5mg/kg PO, *av-20 mg/kg PO SID x 3d*. Anthelminthic with activity against all nematodes and Taenia cestodes. ...
www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html 

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sabina said:


> Any other input is still welcome.
> Thanks!
> Sabina



Hi Sabina,

Have you tried giving him the garlic capsules? Garlic will purify the blood and the smell itself will clear out some of the parasites and help build the immune system at the same time. It is not a drug and therefore will leave no side effects. I usually don't recommend it in birds with stomach upsets or younger then 6 weeks, but if I had a choice between Panacur and garlic, the garlic would be the way to go, in cases where parasites are debilitating good recovery and health.

My rehabber who has been rehabbing birds over thirty years, tells me she uses it for deworming, etc, she says it does work on all parasites.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

With drugs, it's sometimes a matter of identifying the concentration of the actual drug in the formulation and doing a bunch of math. One slip on the calculator buttons can be fatal. Here's a thread about that very mistake:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10546

Does it say on the Panacur what the concentration is?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, did you get the weight of the bird? Our vet does not recommend worming any that weigh less than 150 grams.

Also the 1 ml for Panacur, 1 x day, for 7 days seems excessive. We have, in the past, used Panacur but our vet switched to Pyrantel which we dose once, wait two weeks and dose again for a total of two times only. The dosage amount for the pyrantel is much, much less also. The average amount we dose is 0.09 for about a 300 gram bird.

Dosing birds can get tricky and you need to really pay attention (which you're doing) but a syringe goes from 0.01 ml (or cc) to 1.0 ml (or cc). The 1.0 is a FULL syringe. The 0.1 is up just 10 small marks from the bottom. When we give the Pyrantel at 0.09 that is just 9 marks from the bottom. It all depends on where the decimel is placed. Does this help any? 

Like Pidgey said the concentration will make a difference.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

From what Sabina posted, the Panacur was to be 1/10th cc/ml (0.1 cc/ml) once daily for 7 days. We really do need to know the weight of the bird and the strength of the Panacur.

Terry


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks everyone. I left a message for the vet and am waiting for her to call back. I don't know how much Pio weighs but he is superscrawny. I'll ask her if she remembers the weight. I'll also ask about what concentration the Panacur is, it's not labeled on the container she gave us. The amount prescribed was 0.1ml (I'm a nurse practitioner so I should be pretty good with syringes and dosages  ). 

This vet has been recommended very highly for pigeon care, and takes care of pigeons very regularly, so I'm kind of shocked that she would prescribe the Panacur for 7 days. It was a different vet we saw with the other birds (same hospital), and though the Panacur overdose occurred with Petra, that was a misunderstanding. The vet had only meant for her to get 1 dose. And she was an adult. 

We'll consider the garlic, that certainly couldn't hurt. Definitely holding the Panacur for now...


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Still waiting for call back from vet...but while I have everybody's attention, I have one other question. We're getting conflicting information about how often to feed Pio. We've been told twice daily, we've been told every 3 hours, and we're very confused. 

From the pictures, we've been told he's about 4-5 weeks. He can fly pretty well (this is the first pigeon we've had flying around the apt! only while well-supervised of course). 

So far we've been feeding thawed peas, corn, and a little bit of seed, but we're going to switch to the puppy chow based on the vet's advice. 

Thanks!
Sabina


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, if he is flying around the apartment, I would feed him 3 times a day - maybe every 6 hours. He definitely needs more than the corn and peas. Just watch his poops carefully. It would probably help to get some Nutrical (comes in a tube and is labeled for dogs) to put some additional calories in him. I have used it even when medicating and it seems to help them put on weight. Use about 1/2 inch and just dip the dog chow pieces in it as you feed him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi sabina, 


I would think, treat the 'Yeasts' first...while gently reducing the Worm's severity, with ACV-Water and Raw Garlic in his diet...and anything else that is 'Natural' and easy on him, which discourages Worms or slows their life cycle...or may dislodge some of them even...

Weigh him intially, let him gain a little weight...let him get some good nourishment for a while..

Do the best nutrition you can...

And after a week or two, then do the first series of Medical de-Worming - unless the Worms are so severe in themselves already , as to be a serious threat needint immediate attention...

If Ivomec', or 'Ivomectin-Plus' are felt to be so much safer in the experience of so many here, maybe consider in this mean time, to send off for some...


Good luck with him..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*Finally an answer!*

Hi everyone,
I wrote today to the other vet we've seen in the past, since I never heard back from the one that Pio saw, and here is what she had to say:

*"Hello Sabina,
The other vet gave you the oral suspension which is much milder than the capsule dosing. The capsule is a single dose for adult birds, and can be repeated if necessary. The oral suspension is 100mg/ml. The dosing based on Plumb's is 3 to 5 days, anywhere from .04 to .10 for a light bird like yours. So you have your range. I would go the three days given your worries from the past. If your baby has a decent length tail it is over 8 weeks. Plumb's does not advise against giving young birds Panacur. I hope this helps."*

Pio is definitely not over 8 wks since he is very much the squeaker (hence his name, which is Spanish for the sound baby chicks make). So I guess we'll start the Panacur today. 

Any thoughts on the .04-.10 range, in terms of how much we should give? Pio weighed 160g at the vet's visit 5 days ago. We bought a scale yesterday, but unfortunately there are only 3 gradations between 100 and 200g (ie only markings for 100, 125, 150, 175, and 200). So it seems he weighs about 170g now, but it's not very exact. 

Pio is looking good. He's puffing less today. He made excursions from his cage to the fridge to the window to my spice rack, basically made his rounds all around the kitchen this morning, of course leaving a few little presents along the way! Boy can that bird poop! It really seems literally like every 5 minutes, definitely more than 30 a day! But small, well formed, brownish with white. 

He's been preening himself today, which he hasn't really done in the past. Plenty of wingslaps and pecking, he starts to quiver in preparation when we come too close to his cage! We'll post more pics soon. He has a very nice new cage with a wooden perch, also his brick and electric heating pad, towels etc. Water and seeds, which he just makes a mess with, none goes in that I can tell!

We were feeding kitten chow (no puppy chow around here it appears) but it was getting so mushy so quick, I started to worry he could aspirate the mush. So today we did peas, corn and seeds. I don't know, maybe we'll try the chow again but only soak for a few seconds. (And we can make a little trip to Petco for the puppy chow instead.)

Oh we looked for garlic capsules in a few places, but it was all tablets. The only softgels we found had a bunch of other herbs mixed in, don't know that they were good for pigeons. We went to Trader Joes, Walgreens, and an organic store by our house. We'll keep looking. Though I guess if we're going to use the Panacur now, we don't really need it? Phil, raw garlic? You mean pieces of cut-up garlic?

Ok this is totally unrelated but there is this pigeon we call the Duchess who has been hanging around our windows lately, all white except this brown headress/feather thing and a brown tail, very regal, bossy and mean! We'll post her picture on Feral Pigeons soon, you have to check her out! She is very impressive!

Sabina


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Wow Pio can eat seeds on his own! I thought his pecking was just a show, but I watched surreptitiously just now, and he was really swallowing. He's been at it for 5-10 minutes now! This is the first time though that it's really been a sustained effort (that I know about)--I guess he really is feeling better! 

Makes me a little nervous again about the Panacur--I would be very unhappy to see him get sick from it. Maybe we'll just give 0.04. Let's see how the calculations work out according to the formulary Terry posted...

20mg/kg recommended dosage 

100mg/ml concentration of Panacur, which is 10mg per 0.1ml. So 0.04 is 4mg. 

0.160kg x 20mg/kg=3.2mg

So I'd say no more than 0.04! (Did I do that right? I'm not used to calculating tiny pigeon doses, mostly I calculate for obese kids!!)

Oh and what I thought was preening is turning into an almost nonstop activity (ok slightly exaggerated, let's just say *very* frequent), it seems more like picking at mites and scratching. Should we dust him with some pyrethrin powder? He can't have acquired mites while he was here, right? Maybe he just has more energy now to be bothered about it? The vet didn't say anything about lice though. ?

Wow there he goes with the seeds again. I'm very impressed!

Sabina


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 


I am glad to hear everyhing is going so well, and that he is making lots of nice poops..!


I do not think one should give Pigeons anything in "Capsules', as in my mind anyway, the Gelatin could stick to the sides of their Crop possibly...

But simple fresh raw minced Garlic should be fine if he will eat it, or similarly, the dry minced kind that usually comes in small bulk envelopes for like $1.25 or something at most Grocery stores.

Or, the granulated 'powdered' dry Garlic, which one can just add to his Seeds or one can lightly 'glisten' the Seeds with some ( must be "fresh", "NEW" and not the old Bottle on the shelf, of) Olive Oil.

He may simply have dry skin which is itchy...and the Olive Oil and a proper Seed and other things diet will ammend.

In fact, see if you have any Farm or Feed Stores in your are, or Pigeon supply places, from whom to get some real Pigeon Seed mix...

Or, go to Petsmart if there is one near, and get a variety is nice small Seeds, such as some Finch or Canary Seeds, some White Safflower Seeds, and so on, and a bag of all purpose Wild Bird Mix.

I would not give him any Peanuts.


You can also offer him Baths in a Cake Pan or something an inch or so deep and large enough for him to get into...and he would like that I am sure...

Do you know how to make up the 'ACV-Water' for his drinking Water?


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Umm ok he completely stopped with the preening/picking at the feathers thing. I think the problem is...I'm supposed to be cleaning the apt and um...I really don't want to. Obsessively pigeon-watching and posting on the forum minute-by-minute updates are more engaging activities. But perhaps I should turn the computer off for a little while...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabrina, 


Well, preening is a good sign of a Bird starting to feel better, from when they were feeling poorly and not preening...so, he may have some preening-catching-up to do...

Too, they preen a lot anyway unless feeling poorly...so...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

He's been alternating between preening and eating seeds the last 3 hrs so he is definitely doing better.

I've been discussing the Panacur with our rehabber friend, and I think we're going back to holding off on the Panacur. He pointed out a couple websites which said it's not recommended under 7 wks. Given Pio has developed an apetite, the ability to eat on his own, and has started preening, it is obvious he's getting better without the Panacur. So there doesn't appear to be any dire need to give it, from a clinical perspective anyway (I don't know how dire it looked under the microscope). It just doesn't make sense to give him something which might worsen his condition. 

I'll have to discuss it with Aias when he gets home, but those are my thoughts for now.

Sabina


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Phil--
Somehow I missed your earlier post. 

We did buy pigeon mix from a pigeon supply store a week or so ago. Aias mixed that with Hagen Pigeon and Dove Mix, which is what we used to give in the past. So Pio gets a mix of the two. Aias picked the big corn out from the pigeon supply store mix since we were told he was too sick/young for that. 

We saw some liquid garlic formulation, maybe we should get that?

Thanks!
Sabina

P.S. We do know how to mix the ACV water, no problems there!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Sabina,

I agree not to give Panacur to young pigeons. My experience with Panacur is not so good.
If the vet noticed worms in the fecal I would however deworm him, maybe at nine weeks of age or ten. The worms won't die on their own and even though mammals and bird can live with worms a long time they do interfere with nutrient absorbtion and irritate the intestinal wall and in time they multiply.
We usually give Ivomec (Ivermectin) one injection and all our birds do good on it and show no worms on the follow up fecal.

Why don't you start him on garlic now and repeat the fecal in two weeks, see what happens.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, you don't know how happy I am that you have a little one that is doing well. See, told you so!  

I agree with your decision to hold off on the Panacur. I do know that the Pyrentel that we give our birds for worms is gentle but works really well.

You mentioned the "Duchess". It sounds like a Helmet breed. Pete Jasinski recently caught one and posted pictures of her (Gracie) and will be shipping her to Treesa sometime next week. Yours probably should be caught and found a good, loving home.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Maggie, that is sweet!

Reti, in terms of starting on garlic, what do you mean exactly? How much, how many times? It definitely makes sense to do garlic now instead, and then see how the fecal looks at 8 wks. 

Anyone interested in the Duchess, we posted her pics on Wild feral pigeons. It appears she's a Helmet pigeon who lost her owner. So we'd appreciate any advice on trying to re-unite them--even though she's so mean to the other pigeons that we call her Mafia Boss every time she shows up!

Sabina


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*latest update*

The vet just emailed me again saying to wait on the Panacur. Well, really she said it was ok to wait, given Fred (our rehabber friend from this forum) recommended against worming before 8 wks, and she has great faith in Fred. And she said the chart just said "roundworm," not "heavy roundworm." So that made me feel better. 

I was looking at Treesa's sticky on garlic (do I do anything besides read this site??) and it seems we should give the garlic daily? Is that right?

Sabina


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 


I sometimes just mince up some raw fresh Garlic, and mix that with their Seeds...

Other times, I just lightly glisten thier Seeds with some ( you know, fresh, new bottle, ) Olive Oil...and then add some dry powdered or dry minced Garlic...

Either way, everyone seems to eat it and to like it...and little fledgeling Doves land on my shoulders to breathe their Garlic breath into my face...and everyone is happy...

This, and the ACV-Water, I think would be good for him, and in theory, can slow down the Worms a little bit too I think...pending his ten week of age thereabouts regimin of Worm meds...

I wonder, does anyonw have any experience with hot Peppers and Pigeons?

I understand many Parrot-kinds of Birds like them...and they too are understood to slow down Worm infestations...


So glad he is eating and preening up a storm...!

Do any of the Oregano or Thyme extracts have anti-worm properties/effects? Do any of us recall???

What I am driving at are benign Natural foods or suppliments which in cases like this, or any time really, can be used poending the actual medical de-worming regimens...

Many times, a Pigeon is too young, too frail or too somehtingt or other, to feel good about iseing the medicines on them...so...I am looking to know more about intermediary steps...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*latest pio pictures*

look at our cutie-pie! Don't his feathers look better?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ms_sabina/tags/pio/

quite unrelated...you can actually see our whole apt in the pics: when he's perched on the blue lantern, one pic you can see to the end of the kitchen, and the other, you can see thru the "living room" and "bedroom." mr squeaks, we beat you for smallest apt, we definitely have less than 500 sq feet. maybe 400? and ahem i am going to clean that countertop shortly.

these are the old pictures, in case you want to compare the plumage
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100fires/tags/sept18/

sabina

p.s. we haven't started the garlic yet, most likely tomorrow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

He's looking pretty good there..!

Wacky 'doors' there...I like 'em...did you make them?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He is so sweet. He has the cutest little face, love those bugeyes.

Nice cozy little place you have there.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, I enjoyed the pictures very much. He is the cutest little thing and looks really well. Your apartment is fine - looks bright and cheerful to me!

Your wedding pictures were very nice and the two of you make a handsome couple. Your dress is beautiful.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Why thank you  Apt and wedding-wise that is. About wedding pics--on Aias' Flickr site (the one with the old Pio pics), you can also see our mehndi night (when the henna was applied to my hands), as well as some pics from the civil ceremony. My Flickr site has nicer ones of my outfit though! (The wedding was only in June so I still have fun showing pictures!)

Phil do you mean the Japanese screen thing which is next to the blue candle lantern?

How's that for a digression? Let's see, maybe I should mention a pigeon somewhere in here... 

Yup Pio really is the cutest. Next we'll have to post a movie of some of his too cute and oh so silly antics!

Sabina


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Sabina,

LOL...I looked at the wedding pictures before you even mentioned them! Of course, I couldn't resist!

You and Aias are a very handsome couple and your wedding looked so beautiful....especially your dress.

Also, I LOVE that blue lantern! I want one! LOL

Oh, also, by the way.....the pigeons are lookin' pretty good too (Almost forgot to mention that! LOL)

Linda


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

sabina said:


> look at our cutie-pie! Don't his feathers look better?
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ms_sabina/tags/pio/
> 
> quite unrelated...you can actually see our whole apt in the pics: when he's perched on the blue lantern, one pic you can see to the end of the kitchen, and the other, you can see thru the "living room" and "bedroom." *mr squeaks, we beat you for smallest apt, we definitely have less than 500 sq feet. maybe 400?* and ahem i am going to clean that countertop shortly.
> ...



Pio is lookin' good. Gonna be some spoiled bird, I can tell!  

Mr. Squeaks was on Panacur before he was a year old due to round worms. I saw one in his stool and with the meds, he ended up passing SIX  more!

Haven't seen anything since and he's almost 3 years old...


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Eiuuu! We're going to see the roundworms come out??? Well Aias does 24-hour poop duty, so I guess he gets to look for them!

We had cut back to one feeding a day since he filled his crop pretty well with seeds yesterday. But today, his crop was pretty empty in the evening so we fed him twice. I am very proud of us, finally basing our feedings on crop emptying! FINALLY!!

In terms of Pio being spoiled...well the only problem is that he wants nothing to do with us. He is deathly afraid of us, quivers and shakes when we come near. We can only admire from afar. Sigh. Will he ever like us?

Sabina

P.S. Thanks for all the nice things you all had to say wedding-wise! I would've snuck a look at those pics too!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

No, you probably won't see round worms. Don't know. The fecals I had tested with Squeaks were negative, so I was QUITE surprised when that guy showed up! I worked for a Vet at one time and knew a round worm when I saw one. If I remember correctly, Squeaks only took the meds for about 3 days and then again in a week or so. My Vet said that should take care of the problem. He also has pijies and he seemed to be right...no problem since.

Yes, I was able to check out your wedding pictures too! How fun!

Give Pio a BIG HUG for me IF you can get close enough...otherwise, just blow a few kisses!  Time, patience and love will make a difference with Pio's reactions, I'm sure.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

When we worm our pigeons we can see some worms in the poop about 2 hours after we've wormed them. They're white and some can be at least 2 inches long. If a bird is badly infested they come out in big clumps. Quite interesting, really!

Sabina, don't worry though. They die as soon as they come out.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*quick question*

We've been giving Pio the Benebac gel that we had left over from previously. How much should we give, how often, for how long?

Sabina


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, We have never used the gel but do use the powder. You could probably cut it back to one time a day for about another week. With the powder, we use the spoon that comes with it and I would estimate it holds about 1/8 tsp. The package your gel came in should have directions on it.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hi all, 
I posted this stuff in the Duchess thread but this is really the more appropriate place...

Since Sir Duchess, the helmet pigeon we captured is temporarily living with us, we are wondering--is it OK to have both pigeons out flying around at the same time? They do stay away from each other. But do we have to worry about them passing any germs? Pio was treated for coccidiosis and yeast, still has to be treated for roundworm, and hasn't had a check-up since being treated. Sir Duchess seems healthy but hasn't been to the vet. Pio has his own cage, Sir Duchess is housed in a cat carrier.

We finally started Pio on garlic gelcaps. We alternate between hand-feeding seeds and peas/corn. He also gets Benebac. He hasn't gained any weight though (he's been with us 9 days), you think that could be because of the worms?

Sabina


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It could be because of the worms that he is not gaining any weight.
I woulld't let them out together yet.
I quarantine new birds for three weeks at least.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Sabina, I agree with Reti - keep Sir Duchess and Pio separate for a few more weeks - just to make sure.

Also, how much does Pio weigh now? I am a little concerned that he has not gained any weight for 9 days. The peas and corn simply aren't enough for him. Do try the soaked dog or cat food and keep encouraging him to learn to eat seeds on his own. We use Science Diet Adult (small bites). You don't want it to get mushy, just nice and soft. Try about 1/4 cup of the dog food pellets, pour very hot water to just cover the pellets and maybe 1/2 inch above, cover and let soak. We shake ours about every 15 minutes to make sure all the water is getting on the pellets. Let it cool before you feed Pio. It keeps well in the fridge for at least 3 days.

You can try Nutrical (it is in a tube for dogs) to help add calories. We use about 1/4 to 1/2 inch and dip the pellets in it before you feed.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Pio weighs about 170-175g. At the vet he was 160g. That doesn't really count as gaining weight, right? We do feed seeds as well, and he does eat seeds on his own. I think we just need to feed him more often. Right now we feed him once-twice a day, I think we need to increase to 3 times. We'll get the puppy chow as well.

Sabina

P.S. I told Aias about keeping them separate.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, when do you plan to worm Pio? I agree with Reti that worms could be keeping him from gaining weight plus I think he needs to be fed a little more to get additional nutrition. 

Have you talked to Fred about the wormer? Maybe he has the Pyrentel that we use, which I know is safe to give at a 150 gram weight. It is gentle and my vet switched us from Panacur to Pyrentel sometime ago.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*Pio update*

Aias took Pio to the vet yesterday and no worms!! I guess the garlic worked! On his fecal, there was no coccidiosis or roundworm, but there were a couple yeast buds, so he's back on Nystatin for a week. He also gained weight in the past few days, now he's 200g (on our scale and the vet's). I don't know if it was the garlic/getting rid of the worms, or the fact that he started flying a lot more in the past few days and gained muscle mass. Maybe a combination of the two. 

The vet said it was ok for the birds to fly around at the same time since they're both healthy. I don't know. Aias was already leaning in that direction, he didn't understand how they would pass germs if they didn't really go near each other anyway. And if germs pass thru the poop, that could happen even if they're not out at the same time. Hmm right now, they actually both are on the window ledge. I do feel more on the cautious side...maybe you (Reti and Maggie) could explain a little more on the logic of the quarantine? Since Aias is the primary caretaker here...

As for the feeding, we're still feeding seeds, corn, peas glistened with olive oil. I guess we feel reassured by the recent weight gain. But I do think we should get some puppy chow still. 

That is the update!

Sabina


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HiSabina,

Please skip the 'puppy chow'...it is made from truely ghastly and disgusting ingredients of which most of it was diseased, rotting and or downer roadkill, zoo animals, the dead from animal shelters...cooked into oblivian, with rancid animal fats added. Pigeons are Vegan Creatures, not eaters of rotted, diseased and spoiled carrion...and no way could it ever compare to wholesome Seeds and some Goji-Berrys say, with the latter soaked and cut into thirds if feeding via 'Seed-Pop' into their Beak...

Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

We got some input from our rehabber friend Fred about the logic of quarantine, possible subclinical infections, airborne bacteria, etc. So I think Aias is sufficiently convinced about that. But given we have only 1 room in essence, we can't really effectively quarantine the birds in terms of anything airborne. So now I am STRESSED thinking we may have exposed Pio to more illness, that Sir Duchess may be harboring nasty things...We will take Sir Duchess to the vet asap for some testing. 

This is the first time we've had any pigeons who've been able to fly, and I'm wondering...how in heavens name do you guys keep your houses clean? Any tips, strategies, cleaning products...suggestions please!! I am starting to get a bit unhappy about the unhygienic conditions in here. We're not the tidiest people, and we have very little storage space. So the apt is kind of a mess with papers, books, clothes, and cat hair...adding pigeon poo to the mix is um...well you can see what I'm getting at. 

Back to cleaning... 

Sabina


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, re the keeping birds separate. Birds are good at hiding illnesses until they get really sick. They may have a disease that will take time to show so a good rule of thumb is to keep them separate for at least 3 weeks. We often keep new birds "in quarantine" even 4-5 weeks, depending on how they look and act. Of course, with squabs/fledglings, I sometimes don't practice what I preach and will put two together if they both appear to be ok. It seems to keep them happier.

I sure don't want to get into a fuss with Phil about the dried food but I have used Science Diet Adult Small Bites for many, many years and have no problems with it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The cleaning part, well, with pigeons it can get pretty messy. 
One option would be to purchase a bird diaper like Mr. Squeaks has. Though some birds don't seem to like them. Pio might get used to it since he is younger.
To clean surfaces I use Basic G and Basic H. It cleanses and disinfects surfaces and they are not toxic to the birds, they also clean walls and firniture very well. Vinegar is great to clean their water bowls and cages.
You can put out towels or better, fleece throws where they are spending most of their time.

Reti


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I'll definitely consider the bird diaper--Pio has lots of attitude though, I'm sure he'd HATE it. For now, I think we'll just try to cover the surfaces where they hang out. 

Basic G and H, are those "green" cleaning products? I had been thinking we should go to the natural store in the neighborhood to get some less toxic cleaning products since these birds are always pecking around.

The quarantine issue--the main problem is having 1 room. The kitchen, living room and bedroom areas are all connected, no doors. We do have a small "closet room" which has a door, but the door doesn't close entirely. Plus that's where the cat litter is, so we couldn't close it anyway. Sir Duchess' cat carrier is in the closet room, and he perches in there most of the time, but sometimes he flies out. Then there is the bathroom (which does have a door!).

So it seems like it's really not safe for us to have more than 1 bird here (if one is sick that is). That being for future reference. For now, hopefully this anxiety will be relieved when Sir Duchess gets checked out by the vet in the next couple days.

Sabina


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, you don't necessarily have to keep them in separate rooms, just have their cages in separate areas - say, one on one side of the room and one on the other side. Don't let them out at the same time. 

About cleaning - it is very hard no matter what size house you have. We basically use 3 rooms, kitchen, dining room and laundry room and have on occasion used the family room and living room. With an open area like you have I know it is hard. We primarily use the kitchen which is fairly large but we use a lot of newspaper to cover everything when we let the birds out to fly. Our friends are kind enough to save their paper and that really helps. We use a Wal-mart brand of cleaner, Great Value, with clorox, to clean all surface areas. We go through so much that the house brand saves us money.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina,


If your Pigeon is pecking and eating on his own...and getting excercise now(which will benifit him a great deal in every way)...and starting to gain weight now...then I see no need to be doing "Seed-Pops" for getting more food into him.

Just keep up what you have been doing...the Garlic and theACV-Water and Oiled Seeds and he should do fine...

Get another fecal regarding the 'Worm' matter in a week or ten days or something...

Otherwise, just let him eat, fly, and poop where he wants...

Quarenteen-wise...you can just quarenteen the new arrive one...in-a-cage...and let Pio fly around for now...works out the same as if you quarenteened both of them really...but he needs the excercise now, so...let him have it...!

Bestwishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Quick question--we're going to order some meds to have around. Any place you recommend as better to order from? Cheaper? I looked at jedd's and foy's websites so far. 
Sabina


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't know if it was the garlic/getting rid of the worms, or the fact that he started flying a lot more in the past few days and gained muscle mass. Maybe a combination of the two. 

*I'm glad the garlic is working well for the birds. I use garlic everyday on rehab birds and twice a week for just prevention, those gelcaps are so wonderful. My rehabber friend has used them for many many years, and she swears they do get rid of worms and all kinds of parasites. 

I have used the Basic G as germicide for many years (to spray in the coop), it has a nice smell and is a wonderful viruside, germicide and anti-bacterial, and more. It is not toxic. We just make sure the spray is dry before allowing the birds back inside. *


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sabina said:


> Quick question--we're going to order some meds to have around. Any place you recommend as better to order from? Cheaper? I looked at jedd's and foy's websites so far.
> Sabina


I like Global pigeon supplies, because they have the basics and are close to me, so the shipping is cheaper, and I get the order the next day. So I buy the heavy stuff like floor dressing and pick cake there and multi-vitamin minerals.

I also like Siegels as they carry other products that I like. They have some different types of feeders and waterers now, that are wonderful that Globals doesn't have.

I LOVE Jedds, but only order from them once in a while, like their organic prevention products. I don't buy often from them because shipping costs more, as they are in Calif. I am in florida.

Find the one closest to you, check out their catalogs and see what you like there, then check the other supply houses out and see what they have. 

I really enjoy looking thru their catalogs, almost as good as my Lands' End catalog.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

New England Pigeon Supply is close to you, Sabina: http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sabina, I hear you about space constraints! Here is the info on Flight Suits (a.k.a. pij diapers):

web address: www.flightquarter.com

toll free phone: 888-412-7667

I bought Squeaks' suit from a bird store down the street and had to take a few back before I found the right size! The one recommended for pigeons was too small and I ended up going about FIVE sizes BIGGER! BUT, Squeaks is a racing homing (retired) pigeon and has a broad chest.

It's important to get the right size. Squeaks doesn't always like wearing his, but they sure come in handy when I don't want poops when he's out and I have guests! The suit works great too, is made of nylon, washes and dries very quickly!

Hope this helps. These "diapers" can ALSO save in cleaning up a lot of poops!

The company is very friendly and will be glad to help you decide on a size and I believe they also have a return policy, which is very important.

Hope this helps...


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Mr Squeaks for that info. Right now, we're just doing the newspaper, that's working ok. But still lots of poop clean-up all over the place, so we should look into the diaper thing. 

OK so here's the update. Sir Duchess went to the vet on Tuesday and was given a relatively clean bill of health. The vet said he had a trace of coccidiosis and roundworm but that it seemed the garlic capsules would be good enough for that, given how well they worked for Pio. 

Aias also brought a poop sample from Pio, who had just been at the vet a few days earlier. At the last visit (last Sat), he was pronounced clear of roundworm and coccidiosis, but put back on Nystatin for a couple yeast buds. Well this time (Tue), apparently the coccidiosis was back with a vengeance, and no yeast. So now he's off the Nystatin and back on the Albon for 5 days (which makes today his last day). 

We've been giving daily garlic capsules to both. We'll start the Benebac for Pio again after his last dose of Albon (we don't have that much left, and the instructions say to give it after the antibiotics).

We've decided to send Sir Duchess to someone from the Forum (Hooked) who has a pet roller. So we'll be trying to figure that out in the next couple days. I'll be glad to see him off to a more permanent loving home. It still makes me nervous, the two pigeons together. Sir Duchess is a bit of a bully. No overtly aggressive behavior but he kind of crowds and scares Pio sometimes. Right now Pio is quivering in the window while Duchess is pecking at some seeds a few inches away (they have separate seed bowls, but Aias puts out seeds in the windowsills for the pigeons to eat as well). Both vets that we see gave a green light to the birds being out together. But...well..I guess I'm just not so partial to Sir Duchess. I admit it. Aias wanted to keep him and I said no.

So there you are. That is the update. 

Thanks Treesa and Terry for the pigeon supply info. Last weekend, I became a bit overwhelmed by all the options--i just got lost in looking at the websites and forgot about actually ordering. But now we'll just pick the place closest and order some stuff.

Sabina


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Can certainly understand your feeling of being "overwhelmed!"

However, once Sir Duchess has his/her own home, things should settle down quite well for you, Aias and Pio. Interacting with a pigeon is such a TRIP! Such LOOKS, such PERSONALITIES! IF Pio is female, such EGGS! LOL 

We'll be here for updates!  

Squeaks sends a HIGH WING FIVE!


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