# Canker in Mourning Doves



## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

I've had some problems with Canker last summer and now again this summer in the Wild Flock of Mourning Doves who visit my backyard feeders.

To make a long story short, I have quite a few die last summer. I took one deceased bird to my vet and they diagnosed aspiration as the cause of death and lots of bacteria. They gave me antibiotics last summer to add to the water. This did not help the remaining flock and many more passed. I captured one still alive and took it to the Wild Bird Center in Boise and they diagnosed Canker. They had to euthenize (sp?) the poor thing as it was too far gone to treat.

Now again I'm having Mourning doves die. I was able to catch one and took it to the Night Wild Bird Lady and the poor thing died as soon as she started to examine it. I then took this bird again to my vet to perform a nacropsy and she found lots of e-coli and determined that it had Canker.

My vet prescribed Metronidazole. We used 8 IV bags and added water to make 1 gallon to put into my bird baths. She said the normal type is too bitter and that the birds wouldn't voluntarily drink.

Today was the last day of meds that I had. My questions are: What are the early signs of canker? and what else can I do to help the ones who still remain ill? and will I see any improvement in the ones that are ill? They all seem to be in various stages of the disease.

Thanks for any information you could give me.

Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I hate to say it but trying to treat wild birds while they're still under their own recognizance is almost a lost cause. One of the problems that you end up with is developing resistant strains. It has been proven that underdosing is the worst thing you can do towards building resistance in the pathogen. Doves really seem to have a bad problem with canker (Trichomoniasis) and there are some extremely virulent strains out there. I've never heard of a practical way of controlling it in the wilds like that, I'm afraid.

Pidgey


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

I'm self employed and in my home office most of the time. It sure is tough watching these little guys slowly starve to death. Thanks for your input


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I understand that, alright. I suppose that you could build a special hoop-net with a spring or rope trigger that you could catch the little fellows with at the watering hole and then start treating them on an individual basis. That's pretty rewarding work.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of course, there might be one simple thing that you could do that might help the situation--you could put fresh water in the waterer everyday with a little bit of Clorox in it. That will prevent any Trichomonads (the flagellating protozoa responsible) from being able to live in it. I'm not sure about the concentration, but it'd be the same as that used to treat water for Giardia. If you could get all the folks who keep birdbaths and other waterers in your nearby neighborhood to doing the same thing, it would help the problem. However, if you have a natural water feature like a pond or a creek that the birds like to drink at, it might not matter. But, it's a cheap enough thing to try.

Pidgey


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

I currently change the water each day and spray diluted bleach on the rim and in the bowl of the bath. I let this stand, then rinse before refilling. Is it safe to leave a little bit of bleach in the water. I would sure hate to hurt the birds from the burn. What would a safe blend?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I went a'lookin' and found this:

http://standeyo.com/News_Files/LTAH_Water_Pure2.html

It essentially says 16 drops to the gallon of water of a chlorinated bleach with no soap or whatever with a sodium hypochlorite content of 5.25 to 6.0%

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Starshooter said:


> I currently change the water each day and spray diluted bleach on the rim and in the bowl of the bath. I let this stand, then rinse before refilling. Is it safe to leave a little bit of bleach in the water. I would sure hate to hurt the birds from the burn. What would a safe blend?


So sorry to hear of the problems you & your feathered friends are having Starshooter.

I add a bit of Apple Cider Vinegar to the ferals water a couple times a week.
I personally don't care to use bleach. I wouldn't want to drink it. The ACV works well.

I have Inca, Mourning, White winged & Ring neck doves, pigeons, sparrows, a few other varieties that hang out in our backyard daily & haven't had a problem for quite some time. I'm sure treating the water has a lot to do with it.

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I read another source and it said that iodine is a better treatment against giardia than bleach is. Actually, there seems to be a bit of confict over that. The reason that I first suggested bleach was because I was talking to a park ranger at a favorite campsite and he showed me where they actually used Clorox to treat the camp water. He said it was the most economical method that they'd found and I thought he said that not everything would get Giardia. 

It's funny with Trichomonads--when you get them outside the pigeon onto the slide, you have to be careful with the water that you use because you can kill the little beggars pretty easy (it's the motion that they make that helps you identify them). They can't survive in distilled water at all because it's a hypotonic solution (think that's the right word) and they tend to explode.

Anyway, a lot of homer folks (people who keep homing pigeons) use a little bit of bleach in the water. But, what may be one of the important factors here is that there are many variants of the Trichomonads and it is clinically known that infection/infestation by a non-virulent species will protect the birds (by way of creating some immunity) from the more virulent strains. Perhaps, Cindy, your local population has that as well.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It looks like water treatment with iodine is 5 drops per quart, by the way.

Pidgey


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

Thanks for the info. I'm willing to try anything at this point to help prevent spreading of the Trichomonads.

By the way, what are the first signs in a dove of this problem?

I've noticed that some of the birds have a redness at the corners of their beaks. Is that normal for some birds or is this a first sign?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Sandy and welcome to the forum.

We have also had a few doves that died from canker. It seems so much worse in doves than pigeons. Their mouths are almost totally blocked and it looks so bad. The problem is that by the time you can catch them they're so sick they don't recover.

We put vinegar water in our outdoor bird baths but I think clorox would be good also. I have a friend who raises show birds and he gives his own birds clorox treated water 1 x week and swears by it. He has been doing this a number of years. He uses 1 tsp. clorox to 1 gallon of water.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You could also consider natural antiprotozoal products like Gem Trikanox:

http://www.everythingforpets.com/gem_trikanox.pet/use.id.5.item_id.413.dept.134/

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Gem's Trikanox is a good product and contains berberine (found in goldenseal), allicin (found in garlic) and echinacosides (found in Echinacea) all of which are effective with canker as well as other common health issues. I don't think you'd have to worry about developing resistancy per se with the procuct. Another procuct you might consider would be GSE (grapefruit seed extract) which can be purchased at a health food store. Maybe a therapeutic dosing/treatment of the natural products and then keeping up with Raw Apple Cider Vinegar on a daily basis would be helpful. The ACV also is good for their feathers as well.

So many folks put out bird baths and don't realize that they require attention, it would be difficult to know where else your birds were watering themselves, if in fact at a neighbors. At least you'd know that by treating your water, they weren't passing it to each other at your home.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhh...

Creeks, running Water, should not present a problem...but standing water, puddles, bird baths and so on sure will...

Infected Birds backflush a little of the infection into the water they are drinking out of, as well as any poops getting into the water from infected Birds...

So, any context where the possible concentrations of the organisms, would seem to me to present a more probable vector for additional Birds contracting the organism...

Doves may be particularly sensitive to this anyway...

The organism can usually live in a kind of balance, as a back-ground fauna, with no problems, and then if the Bird is suffering from privation or other compromise to their nutrition or health, the organism may begin to produce symptoms, and or illness may result, as may death.

Under-doseing as Pidgey mentions is probably worse than no doseing at all if trying to treat wild groups...or captive groups of birds...as it will merely kill off the weakest varients of the organism and leave the strongest and most resistant.

Any standing Water which can be eliminated, even puddles on the ground, to get rid of those would help...


'Berimax' kills the Trichomonads, if very fogiving for dosage, and the Birds do not seem to mind the flavor...and supposedly kills even the resistant strains, but it is hard to get over here...

The Grape Fruit Seed extract, if it can be had reasonably, and used to mix a LOT of water, might be worth a try...but I'd mix it to twice the usual level, since the Birds will likely drink elsewhere as well...

Infected Doves will not show much for symptoms untill very very ill...but, one symptom they will show while still looking healthy otherwise, will be chalky 'yellow' urates in their poops...

It is especially devistating for their Babys, so be on the look out for ten or twelve day old "peeper' Doves on the ground here or there, as they will tend to be expelled from the Nest as they become ill, but way before they are critical, and they are often easy to treat and cure if one get them in time.

If you open their ( adult or youngster) Beak and look down their throat in a good light, you might see little yellowish 'small curd cottage cheese' sort of lumps...but, you might not see them too, and the infecton may be further 'down' somewhere...and probably often is anyway...

Tough deal...

It is bad here too in the Southern Mojave...for Pigeons and Doves both...

'Emtryl', used to come in packets ( Farm Feed Stores and Mail order or internet versions of them, ) for making 55 Gallons of medicated Water at a time, used for treating commercial flocks of Turkeys for 'Blackhead' which is another presentation in another Bird species of the same or a similar organism...but may be hard to get now if one wanted to try it, but then too, it was not so forgiveing for dosage, especially for youngsters or Babys...

It is just very hard to devise any method for treating Wild Birds...where captive ones of course, one may guarantee their intake of the medicine or medicine Water...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

Well I've run out of the metronidazole. My vet only gave me a 7 day supply. It ran about $500 to get 7 mixed gals.

I am happy to say, though, that many of the sick birds drank quite a bit of the water. They didn't go to far during the day as I'm sure they didn't feel well.

I've been following one birds' course for the last 2 weeks. She's very distinctive and I call her "White Tail". she's the only one in the flock that has bright white feathers exposed in her tail feathers and has a brown funny looking dot on her forehead. She was pretty sick when I first started medicating, barely able to get food down. I'm so excited, today I saw her in the food bowl and she's eating like a little pig. She still takes breaks and sits a bit, before eating more. The only residual sign is a little redness at the corners of her mouth. I haven't seen any severe sick birds for about 2 days. I figure either they passed elsewhere or hopefully have gotten better. All of the doves, about 30, seem to be very healthy. I fill the feeders 2x a day. They are quite a few young ones. They are really cute.

I've taken your advise to see how many may be sick and I've (yuck) went out to the bird area and examined their poop. All are black and white with the exception of one green one. could that be from a sick bird?

I've picked up some Apple cider Vinegar to add to the bird baths in hopes of killing the Trich.

Will keep you posted as events unfold.

thanks everyone for your help.
Sandy Fisher
Meridian, ID


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As to $500 for 7 gallons... CRIPES!

There are... uhh... a LOT more economic ways to do that. Many pigeon supply houses have the powder and it's a lot better in price than that. I don't know that the taste would be that bad--pigeons and doves don't have much by way of actual tastebuds, you know. 

However, you can't let the birds have it for very long at a time so I suppose that you could do it by way of "batch processing" where when you get enough sick ones all dying together, then you treat.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhhh, I would guess,, that probably, a packet of Metronidazole from a farm or Livestock Supply place...would prolly run $25.00 or 35.00 or something...for making 55 Gallons...

The 'Emtryl' used to run me around five dollars if memory serve, for the packet, in the late '70s...for making 55 gallons worth...at a 'cure' concentration.

The 'little' packages or bottles one gets from Vets or most supply places are proportionally quite expensive...same as anything else, or many things anyway, when size of package is involved...and, for some things more than others.

If you are not seeing 'chalky yellow' poops, I would be inclined to think you are not in fact seeing Trichomoniasis or Trichonoma illness then, in these Doves, even though some may or will have it, or, on necropsy, will be determined to have had it...

Typically, Doves in advanced or critical stages will have yellow poop solidified in and around the feathers at and beneath their Vent...which in some cases will be effectively blocking further eliminations from occuring.


It may be something else is effecting them...

Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, to the tune of two or three Tablespoons to the Gallon of Water, or even Four, would certainly be a good thing for communal Drinking or Bathing Bowls...to lessen or inhibit a wide range of potentially inimical Organisms...

As would common household Bleach in the right proportions.

Iodine can blow their little Thyroids I think, and one would best do some serious looking into this possibility before useing it...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

From what I've read, Phil, the yellow poos that you're referring to seem more to be a Southwestern Desert phenomenon. It could be that they're bathing in infected-enough water to get a lot of cloacal canker (which could technically be giardia or hexamita, possibly). The doves that I've seen around here in Oklahoma (that I've watched with binoculars to get a good look) have had swollen mouth tissues that are often an inflamed reddish-brown instead of the normal yellow cheesy b*ttons that we're used to seeing in pigeons' throats. I've seen several of them with the insides of their mouths so swollen that they couldn't close their beaks to within an eighth of an inch. It's bad.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, $500.00 is a bit way too pricey when meds and other solutions are available for less money. Happy mentioned a while ago that Dimetridazole was very effective for internal/organ canker, but the only problem with using with the feral flock would be in ability to monitor the inividual consumption especially in warmer weather when the birds can drink more. This is perhaps the least forgiving of the canker meds available to us here in the US.

There may be some strains that move through given regions, although I don't think that the symptoms that Phil describes would be specific to the Southwestern desert, as Northern Cal just wouldn't fit into that geographical area, although I've seen both sets of symptoms that Phil and Pidgey describe.

There are many strains, it's easy for birds to pass along to one another, and sometimes the effects can't be seen by the naked eye, or even w/otoscope as they are internal and sometimes in organs.

Chalmers mentions as a way of keeping it in check, not to leave drinking water out, but rather pull after the birds have finished watering, doing so twice a day.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> From what I've read, Phil, the yellow poos that you're referring to seem more to be a Southwestern Desert phenomenon. It could be that they're bathing in infected-enough water to get a lot of cloacal canker (which could technically be giardia or hexamita, possibly). The doves that I've seen around here in Oklahoma (that I've watched with binoculars to get a good look) have had swollen mouth tissues that are often an inflamed reddish-brown instead of the normal yellow cheesy b*ttons that we're used to seeing in pigeons' throats. I've seen several of them with the insides of their mouths so swollen that they couldn't close their beaks to within an eighth of an inch. It's bad.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 


Well, it does seem that there must be regional differences to the presentations...

Bathing water is nearly non-existant anywhere around here, other than for the pans I put out and refresh, flush out several times-a-day...puddles from ocasional Rain or lawn sprinklers would hardly last a few hours usually, before sinking in evaporating away...

I have certainly seen and treated hundreds of Canker Pigeons and Doves of all ages, and (thankfully,) never seen a cloacal or umbillical involvement...


I have seen a few what-were-thought-to-be Trichomona-based 'lumps' or abcesses, which did not resolve well that were 'in' or on their Crop...but I do not know really what order of bacteria these were, and have only seen it a few times...

But the Birds 'here', to whom I have attributed Canker or some other Trichomona illness, do get drizzley 'yellow' chalky urates, are usually weak and starving by the time I get them, or, sometimes, are fairly robust but newly injured, and downed, so urates is all or about there is...and their Vent area and Feathers down there are often all clogged and matted with yellow goo that has hardened like hard puddy.

The Vents themselves always seemed fine once I had everything washed and massaged and rinsed off, not inflamed or infected even if int=itially a little 'tender' looking...and often, but not always, they have the discoverable 'throat' chunks...and these when severe enough, of course prevent them from eating...and when that 'bad', things are 'iffy'...

These, when not making their last gasps when I get them, have always responded well to the anti-trichomonal meds, such as Metronidazole, or before that, the 'Emtryl' or Dimetridazole...or 'Spartrix' ( which I forget just now what it is...)


But as you have patiently sought to inform me, these meds do more, much more, and other, than simply addressing Trichomonas per-se...


So...hmmm...


What am I doing???

What am I treating..???

And of course too, any Bird with conspicuous 'throat cheese' can also have who knows what else or what other bacterial infestation or infection going on simulataneously of course...so...


Hmmmmmm...

Oye..so much to learn...!


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

I know $500 seems like a lot. But, I just have such a huge heart for critters of all kinds. My husband even laughs when I trap a fly in the house with a cup and release it outside. He thinks I'm nuts. Oh, Well!!

I started this little project not knowing a whole lot about Trich. One of my accounting clients is a retired Vet who didn't specialize in birds. I didn't know who to turn to for help so he suggested by regular Vet. Last summer, when I caught that one sick dove and took it over to the Wild Bird Center in Boise, they had indicated that it in fact had Canker. I asked them at that time how I could help the other ailing birds. The only answer I got was to catch them and bring them to the Center. They would'nt give me any medicine as "You are not a Vet, therefore we can't give you anything".

I was extremely frustrated. 

But, now thanks to this site, I have learned that there are options. I will see if I can find a pigeon supply store in the area and "batch treat". I understand the need to space the treatment. I sure don't want to make the situation any worse than it already is. How much time do you think I should allow between treatments?

I just checked the area with binoculars. There are quite a few outside eating right now. I only saw one that seemed to be having some difficulty. This bird whom I lovingly call "one eye" (one eye had been injured at some point) is the one sick. However, last week, her mouth was open all the time and she just pecked food trying to eat. He mouth is closed now and she is eating the smaller seed and seems to be getting it down. She moves a little slow and stays fluffed most of the time. So I know she doesn't feel well.

I want to thank you all again for all the help. It's so nice to have all of you out there and that I have some place to turn for advise.

Sandy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Starshooter said:


> I know $500 seems like a lot. But, I just have such a huge heart for critters of all kinds. My husband even laughs when I trap a fly in the house with a cup and release it outside. He thinks I'm nuts. Oh, Well!!
> 
> I started this little project not knowing a whole lot about Trich. One of my accounting clients is a retired Vet who didn't specialize in birds. I didn't know who to turn to for help so he suggested by regular Vet. Last summer, when I caught that one sick dove and took it over to the Wild Bird Center in Boise, they had indicated that it in fact had Canker. I asked them at that time how I could help the other ailing birds. The only answer I got was to catch them and bring them to the Center. They would'nt give me any medicine as "You are not a Vet, therefore we can't give you anything".
> 
> ...



Hi Sandy,

Here's a link to the pigeon supply houses where you can purchase meds for
pigeons without prescription at a much more reasonable price than you are currently being charged for:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

and here's the link to the resource section itself:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Try and get the powdered format for canker drugs, I'd stay away from
Dimetradazole for ferals. Either Metronidazole and or Ronidazole for feral
flock treatment. If you get both, you can rotate them, and if treating for 5 days I'd allow a minimum of 5 days off. See what others think. In the interim between medication treatments, you can use either raw ACV or Grapefruit Seed Extract in the water. Sounds like your treatment has helped to get most of them out of the crisis mode, I hope that you have continued good results.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sandy, 


You are such a sweetie...!


Now, what is the situation regarding ambient Bird drinking Water in your area?

In other words, what kinds of Water sources do these Doves seem to have for drinking?



Too, there may be Commercial sourses for 'Metronidazole' ( or 'Flagyl') which cater to Factory Poultry production scenarios, where packets for making 55 or 100 Gallons at a time would be a small fraction of the cost you are facing from other sources selling small amounts.


Some 'googles' on this matter might prove worthwhile...but I am not sure what key words to use...

Maybe 'Bulk Metronidazole'...'Bulk Flagyl'...Metronidazole Packet Sache..ditto Flagyl...

Livestock or Poultry Supplies...Commercial Poultry Supplies, Poultry Management Supplies, and so on, might turn up some sources...


Is your part of Idaho an arid region? or damp and rainy?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...too, possibly products such as 'Berimax' ( seemingly har to get now if not impossible, unless one is in Norway or Europe, ) or 'Trikanox' ( which I just heard about a few days ago, from fp? Or...?)

Would be worthwhile to investigate...especially if available in containers sufficient for making large batches, or many smaller batches of course...


My little Bottle of 'Berimax' likely Would make 20 Gallons or so at a 'cure' concentration, and it cost me something like $23.00 or $26.00 I think, last year...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

Hi everyone.

I'm so excited. I just wanted to give everyone an update on my "beautiful" flock of Mourning Doves.

"White tail" is doing awesome. No sign of difficulty at all. YAH!!!! She's really making up for lost eating.

I just did a binocular check and there are about 45 doves in the backyard. Not ONE, and I mean NO doves are showing any signs of illness. Its now been 6 days since any dove has died from this illness. I think that dosing of Metronidazole broke the chain in this flock, at least for the time being. I am still dosing the water is Apple Cider Vinegar, and you were right, it doesn't seem to bother them at all as they are all drinking. 

Pigeon-Talk is awesome. All of your great ideas have help tremendously. Thanks for the websites to order meds at a more reasonable cost. If I find that the Canker has returned, then at least I can get the meds and still buy my groceries. HAHA!!

Thanks Again
Sandy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sandy...


How very nice to hear..!

You are such a dear...


Do look into the 'Berimax', against which so far, there are no reports I know of, of any resistant strains...and or also, consider to review at liesure, the various anti-Trichomonal meds which may be rotated, from one time to another.

You would not want to inadvertantly encourage propigation of potentially resistive individuals or gangs of Trichomonads, who might remain as background flora in asymptomatic Doves, by useing the same medicine each time...unless prospectively, it is the 'Berimax' or possibly the 'Tricanox' ( which I am trying to learn more about presently...)


While, the ACV-Water may be relied on to acidify their Drinking Water to discourage bacterial or protozooic entities both 'in' the drinking Bowls, and in the Bird's digestive systems themselves...


Best wishes!


Stay in touch here...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Sandy 2 years ago I had the same exact problem. Finding the birds still alive but ruffled and not moving, soon after capture they would die before I could get them into the vet. All the ones I have gotten had very swallen throats, heavy breathing, gunky looking in the mouth and throats. My vet said to make sure the feeders are well cleaned and sanitized with a break down of bleach and water same with the bird baths. plus clean up around outside feeders on the ground. Rain will soak the seed on the ground and start causing bacteria to grow.


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

*Metronidazolum?*

Hi,

It's me again and I have some doves with early signs of Canker

I ordered some Metronidazolum powder from Foys. It says to mix 1 teaspon to 1 quart of water.

I have had it in the bath's two days now and the doves won't touch it. They stick their head in to get a drink, but then pull it out quickly and shake their head and walk away.

Is this too stong, or does it just taste bad.

Also, I noticed when the water gets warm it turns green, is this normal?

Thanks
Sandy Fisher


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Starshooter,

The canker meds are a bit on the bitter side, and the Ronidazole I have that mixes in water turns green right away. But I can't say for certainty about the product you are referring to. Can you please post the exact name of the product so that we can look it up @ Foy's?

fp


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

It's call Metronidazole powder.

Is there something else that can be used that they will drink?

Thanks
Sandy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You can use Ronidazole, but what I'm wondering that I couldn't see from the site is who is the manufacturer and what percent it is. Could you post this
Does the package mention mixing with seeds at all?
I'll get you a link for a Ronidazole product in a minute!
fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, this seems to tie in with what your vet originally said--that the birds wouldn't willingly drink the regular stuff, which this is. I think it's likely that this is the same medication that you originally had, but that formulation was also treated with something (?sugar?) to make it more palatable, perhaps.

If you can read the label and get an actual drug concentration from the package, we might be able to figure out whether it's too strong.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's one of the products that I keep on hand and the birds (pigeons) will
drink it:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=64&SubCategoryID=540&ProductID=3265

I think if you could put what you have on food you might have a better chance of having them ingest it. They may be able to find another source of water, but how many food sources do they have?

fp


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

This is whats on the Foy's website
Metronidazol Powder20% (Pg. 13) 
A powder to be added to the drinking water for the treatment of Trichomoniasis(canker). 1 teaspoon per quart. 250 gram. Treat for 5 - 7 days.

Heres the link:
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/canker/index.html#Metronidazol Powder

Thanks
Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This might take a day to process, by the way.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Starshooter said:


> This is whats on the Foy's website
> Metronidazol Powder20% (Pg. 13)
> A powder to be added to the drinking water for the treatment of Trichomoniasis(canker). 1 teaspoon per quart. 250 gram. Treat for 5 - 7 days.
> 
> ...


Is DAC the manufacturer of this product? Regardless, here's the way to administer w/food:

Weigh out a pound of seeds, and lightly oil them (as in to the shinyness of a new penny) in a large bowl, then gradually add in one teaspoon of the medication to the seeds, and mix thoroughly. Refridgerate what you don't put out for them to feed on. Give them this for five consecutive days. 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I did an experiment--I just weighed a flat teaspoonful of a similar powderized drug (Dimetridazole) and it's 3,850 milligrams (3.85 grams) to the teaspoon. Assuming that it's the same, then 20% means that a mixed quart is going to have 770 milligrams of pure medicine. The question then becomes how much of the quart does each bird normally drink?

The typical dosing is 10 to 30 milligrams of pure medicine per 1 kilogram of bird, twice daily. There is also a once-a-day dosing but it's almost twice so the math is almost the same. Anyhow, a 100 gram dove would get from from 1 to 3 milligrams twice a day. Therefore, it should only drink 0.08 ounces, twice a day. That's saying that 770 milligrams divided by 2 milligrams (assuming the midrange dose for a 100 gram bird) equals 385 doses per quart.

Now, I might be tired and screwed something up--somebody else needs to review that and it'd be a good idea for someone who knows doves better than I do to extrapolate how much they normally drink a day. But, personally, that seems like the dose is pretty high to me. Somebody else who's in a earlier time zone take a look at this!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, that drug that I weighed out (Dimetridazole, 40%) is dosed at 1/2 teaspoon to the gallon. Since that drug is at twice the strength (40% vs. 20%), I'd be more inclined to think that the package should have said 1 teaspoon to the gallon. Also, I did a quickie look at the big syringe and an ounce is close to 30 milliliters so 1/10 of that (rounding that 0.08 milliliters up) is 3 milliliters and multiplying that by 4 (quart to a gallon) gives you 12 milliliters of water twice a day which wouldn't be unreasonable for a 100 gram dove as long as it wasn't too hot, I think.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I think what she is worried about is that they will not or are not drinking the water. Again, if they have other sources of water....and probably so....she can switch to dosing on the feed and have perhaps more certainty that they will consume the medication. Here's Nooties' breakdown on Metronidazole:

Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days.

Metronidazole being far more forgiving than Dimetradazole, I'm more concerned that they will take to the modality of how it's being served up to them.

fp


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

Wow,

You are all awesome. I should have checked into Pigeon-talk earlier in my life and avoided a lot of heartache.

I'll give the feed mix a try and go back to plain water with ACV.

thanks
Sandy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I just checked the new formulary out of CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE, Vol 1, and it shows plenty of different dosages for different uses (anaerobic; trichomoniasis, liver parasitic, etc.) and for different species. Higher dosages tend to be for other things; trichomoniasis tends to be lower doses except in raptors--those tend to be high.

Actually, the one column in the formulary that states the reference for a given dose rate is quite interesting in this case because many of the higher doses get the "Published Without Reference" or "Anecdotal" rating. The only one with a "Manufacturer's Recommendation" rating is for 20 mg/kg per day avian for trichomoniasis (there actually is another but it's the same dose rate and shown for poultry). The only one with a "Pharmacokinetic Research" rating is 30 mg/kg BID for chickens (Sandy, "BID" means "twice daily", by the way). 

The bulk of the other protocols shown fall into that hazy "somebody, somewhere published this, but there's no clinical backup for whether you oughta' go this wild with this stuff." So, I'm pointing out that since the doses are lower for the checked references and that they should work quite well for trichomoniasis, then it follows that the less there is of the stuff in the water, the more likely they are to drink it. Since Sandy already bought the stuff, it might as well be used as it was meant to be used, at least for one shot to see if they'll drink it especially seeing as how the birds are more likely to standardize on their water intake than their food intake.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> .... Since Sandy already bought the stuff, it might as well be used as it was meant to be used, at least for one shot to see if they'll drink it especially seeing as how the birds are more likely to standardize on their water intake than their food intake.
> 
> Pidgey


 Actually, Metronidazole is meant/intended also to be used on food, Pidgey, in fact, the 'dusting' of the food is the only method suggested on the DAC package that I have. Along w/the range in dosing is also the consideration of how many days at the level. Notice here in this link from Dr. Walker at the 
Australian Pigeon Co. site what he is recommending in terms of range and days:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

Also, the dusting method is one that Dan uses and recommends w/his feral flock for treatments because they do have other water sources. He feels that they are less likely to drink medicated water that they can taste especially when there are other water sources available. He has noticed over the years that they don't turn down the dusted food and goes for the higher dose rate to ensure that a bird that doesn't eat on all the 'dusting' days has enough in the system to knock the canker levels down. He treats his flocks twice yearly for canker and worms. For myself, I have noticed as well that they will eat it on their food without difficulty, yet when in the water, they will shake it out and/or avoid it.

I'm not suggesting that Starshooter purchase a different medication, but rather use another recognized modality for administration. I posted a link for another product as Starshooter had asked about other products, although, in the long run, it may not be a bad idea to eventually have another product on hand for rotation. 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, it's just meant to be given on a rate per day basis, plain and simple. How you apply that is your business. It's usually a given that when you're medicating a bird, you have that bird in hand and the burden of correct dosing is something that you have to manage in whatever way is the most efficacious. 

At the beginning of this thread, the caveat (and no matter that it's been forgotten--it still applies) was given that the flock treatment of birds not in containment may cause undesirable long term effects in that when you can't effectively control the amount of medicine that the bird(s) take(s) in, you run the ultimate risk of creating resistant strains that do not respond to treatment(s). That's ultimately worse.

I posted the information from a real formulary above about the dosage rate because you referenced the "20 to 50 milligrams per kilogram, BID" from Nooti's drug thread. I'll tell you why I'm usually so rigid about sticking to protocols that are derived from actual pharmacokinetic research and the manufacturers' recommendations: they killed a lot of animals trying to figure out how much works and how much harms. They did it in a lab and laboriously determined the numbers while doing ungodly extensive testing.

Sure, the folks that repackage and sell the stuff may (since their net profit depends on how much you use) indicate higher doses. Crap, it's used as an economic aid in the poultry industry by way of preventative measures. By the ton. Needed or not. It's possible that the package that you're referring to that shows it as a feed additive was originally designed for that purpose as a captive flock preventative treatment. Poultry flocks aren't intended for long lives--it's a weight gain issue as they're for harvesting. Conversely, when a bird is your pet or a valued individual, then the dosing methodology deserves a little closer inspection, in my opinion.

If Starshooter is more concerned with the flock as a whole (and since they're not captive, that's certainly the case), then individual bird concerns probably don't matter here, one can use whatever method one wants as long as it gets the bulk of the results that one wants.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From this site, and compliments of the Association of Avian Veterinarian in addition to being pigeon specific:

http://myweb.cableone.net/searl/IWC/Medical Formulary.htm

Name: Dimetridazole (Emtryl)

* Description: Dimetridazols is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
* Usage: Trichomoniasis.
* Adverse reactions: Central nervous symptoms with overdosage. Fatalities can occur.
* Dosage: 1/2 to 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for 3 - 5 days (American product no longer available). 1/4 to 3/8 teaspoon per gallon for 3 - 5 days. (Canadian or Mexican product.)
* Comments. Very good for flock treatment. Overdosage with the foreign product is common by individuals using the wrong dosage.

Name: Metronidazole (Flagyl)

* Description: Metronidazole is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
* Usage: Trichomoniasis.
* Adverse reactions: Over dosage can result in central nervous system signs and death.
* Dosage: 50 - 100 mg/bird daily for 4 - 6 days.
* Comments: Not commonly used due to poor solubility in water for flock treatment.

Name: Ronidazol (Ridzol)

* Description: Ronidazol is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant ntiprotozoal activity.
* Usage: Trichomoniasis.
* Adverse reactions: None at the proper dosage.
* Dosage: 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for 3 - 5 days. 400 mg/gallon for 3 - 5 days.
* Comments: Reported far superior to any drug in the States. Less toxic and more effective. Approved for use only in Europe.

fp


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

Hi.

Just read both the replies. I'm getting a little concerned. Do you think that I should just let nature take its course? Am I creating more of a problem by treating them?

It just breaks my heart to see sick birds and not do anything.

I know that the first dosing of Metronidazole(IV) added to the water made a huge difference in this flock. The sick birds actually got better. I know this with at least three of them, (white tale , one-eye, and gimpy) because of their unusual markings/deformaties. They still come over every day and are doing great. I forgot to tell you about gimpy, he has a deformed leg.

Please be honest with me about dosing these birds. I took your advice and mixed the powder with the food and placed it in the feeders. They are actually eating it.. I changed out the bird baths with plain water and ACV.

What do you think?

Sandy Fisher


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we've already said what we think, never mind the mildly adversarial nature of the debate. The formulary referenced by actual link is a bit on the dubious side owing to the non-specificity that isn't immediately obvious. 

Take the wording "Dosage: 50 - 100 mg/bird daily", for instance. It's been indicated that this is a pigeon formulary, and since it's got the "AU" reference at the top, it's a reasonable assumption that they're talking about homing pigeons, which are absolute monsters compared to your small doves.

Personally, I know that the lower dose rate that I posted earlier works because it's the protocol that I follow to treat the birds that I get that are dying of canker. That protocol is miles away from the other dose rates being posted. It is just a personal preference of mine to acquire what I consider to be the most reliable references published for things like this and adhere rigidly to them. There is agreement between AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, MANUAL OF AVIAN PRACTICE by Rupley and CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE (Vol. 1) by Harrison & Lightfoot for the dosage rate that I posted. That last book does also list some higher dose rates in keeping with what fp posted, though. I just take special note that each reference in that specific formulary has its own grade of where the information comes from (the class of the reference) and I arbitrarily choose the ones derived from actual laboratory animal testing.

Have any of these references or formularies which give ominous warnings like "Adverse reactions: Over dosage can result in central nervous system signs and death" bothered to kindly give some idea of that threshold? Well, no... so it's kind of vague, isn't it? Shoot, it might be up there so high that this little debate is insignificant.

In theory, the feed option works well as long as your birds aren't gorging themselves in a drive-by. An anorectic bird (sick enough to not want to eat) may not get enough medication that way and might do better with the water. Another bird might get too much from water medication if it has the beginning stages of coccidiosis and is drinking way too much. Any time that you flock-treat, you run the risk that individuals on the fringes of consumption will under or over dose.

Personally, I don't flock treat. I try to capture individuals that are in a bad way and then deal with them on a more intimate basis. But then, I don't have your problem--a flock of doves dying on the installment plan right in front of my work window every day.

What you do is up to you and (I hate to say this) may require some trial and error to find out what brings the best results. I don't know that anyone here on the board seriously gets into wild flock treatment and certainly not with any real objectivity (tagging and tracking all the birds, their nests, and their young). It's very easy to say, "well, I do this and my flock stays the same year 'round!" but face the facts: if those birds are really healthy, they're likely to raise four clutches a year (8 nestlings). That would indicate almost a 400% increase the first year if they all survived. It ends up being an exponential growth and keeps getting worse. But, they don't all survive and the population stays in a basic equilibrium. That's a lotta' dyin'.

Realistically, review all the material, try a few different ways, take your best shot and try to protect your own little flock as best you can. The flock is not a single bird and it may happen down the road that you just got through a treatment run and another bird shows up obviously sick. Do you sacrifice that one bird to let the flock go awhile without treatment to have a rest? Or do you hit 'em all again for the sake of the one? That's where it gets really tough, trading the unseen (possible organ damage) for the haunting sight of a dying dove.

And who knows, you might trade one evil for another in the long run--you might increase the survivability within the flock such that your local population increases and with that explosion comes an increase in the local Cooper's Hawk population. When you consider things like that, it gets very complex, indeed.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Starshooter said:


> Hi.
> 
> Just read both the replies. I'm getting a little concerned. Do you think that I should just let nature take its course? Am I creating more of a problem by treating them?
> 
> ...


I put the the formulary developed by the AAV for the AU to show the range--one that I believe you to be in, also the comments about whether or not Metronidazole was added to water or feed. I also frequently add info to a member that I believe they may not have seen &/or might benefit by seeing a particular link. While doves may be smaller than a racing pigeon, this is a feral flock and there are enough different ways of dosing to ensure that a bird has had enough to knock the canker down for there to be some variances. Sometimes in fact, in a severe situation an individual bird has two kinds of canker medication doubled up and administered to save the bird. Whether you choose to go with a lower dose, the dose rate on the package, put it in water or powder oiled seed with it, I think that these are all things that ultimately are up to you. You are there in the moment seeing what the effects and symptoms are. Personally, I believe that you are helping the doves, and for that matter, helping a raptor as well for catching a dove w/canker will pass it along to them. 

Here's a link to Snowbird's discussion on the topic:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=49317&postcount=3

from this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=49317#post49317

fp


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

i use 2 tablespoons acv to their water everyday. i treat their water every month or 2 with either pegosan, med pet or global multi mix. I will have a sick bird every now and then but not like i use to. 
never had any luck with morning doves they are so fragile. 
good luck getting it under control it is a heartbreaker.

i have to agree, i would rather drink acv before bleach. at least the pigeons won't have to worry about a straw and destroying the enamel on their teeth.


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## Starshooter (May 23, 2006)

Just wanted to give you an update on the Canker outbreak in the mourning doves in my backyard.

I took the advice of mixing 1 tsp of Metronidazole to 1 lb of food. It worked. Even the sick doves could get a little down. I have not had a severly sick dove now for about a 12 days. Even the ones that I was monitoring (recognizable by unique markings) are doing extremly well. Each day they stopped by to eat, they were eating easier and getting more down. And today are showing no indications of illness.

I ordered some emytrl as a backup if I need to do a followup dosing. But, have not used it yet as there is no evidence of canker in this flock. I am still adding ACV everyday to fresh water.

Thanks again for all your advice. Without it, I would have been lost. I will try to get some good shots of the flock and post soon. Even the new young ones. They are so cute!

Sandy Fisher
Meridian, Idaho


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Many thanks for the updates, Sandy! That's wonderful news!!

Here's to continued success! Pictures will be most welcomed!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's great news, Sandy! I'm so glad your flock is managing to recover with your dedicated help.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sandy, 


Excellent...

The 'Emtryl' ( or Dimetridazole, if memory serve) is far less forgiving of course then the Metronidazole or the Ronidazole, but is an old reliable medicine, even IF it can make them 'walk like Frankenstein' for a while, if they get a little too much...

Now, too, I have been off and on singing the praises of 'Berimax' which became about impossible to obtain here in the States...and I had lost the contact info I had in some computer files from awhile back, from before I installed a New Hard-Drive...and the previousd US distributor ceased to carry it...but...

I found some notes and will contact the Manufacturer soon...

If I can order a Case of it or something, you'd be welcome to some and to try it out. 

It is an excellent anti-protozoon, anti-trichomona recourse, and also deals with a wide range of other undesireable bacteria, amoeba and whatnot else.

AND, it's dosage is very forgiving, and an overdose would have to practically be a condition of pouring the Bottle's contents down the Bird's throat with a Funnel or something, and even then it likely would do no harm to them, aside from maybe making a funny tummy for a while...as well as that it is reputed to decease otherwise 'resistive' strains of Trichomona which had not yeilded to the older long established Medicines ( or been bred, unwittingly, from under-doseing or casual pre-emptive use of such medicines...)

I myself like the taste, like a Summer Aperitiv, or 'Compari' or other kindred 'Bitters, which when added to Water make a refreshing beverage, and my various Birds these last many months whom I have treated with it, have shown no objection to it either...so...

My new Cockateil even seemed to like it, as has everyone else...and it cleared up his 'yellow' urates in about a business-week...so they have been 'white' since...

Anyway, I will let you ( and you all ) know if I am able to get a Case of it or something...

I have had very good results with it for quite tender and young Pigeon and Dove Babys and Infants also, where, oweing to their frailty and very small size, the 'Berimax' seems quite gentle and safe, while as we know, the otherwise usual Medicines can be a little dicey...

The irony of course, is that mild strains or transient infections, occuring in an otherwise healthy Pigeon or Dove, can allow them to acquire a nice resistance or relative immunity, if re-exposed later...but their Babys, I doubt would benifit from this, if an adult parent is successfully fighting off a mild infection to gain a later immunity or resistance...while feeding it's neonates...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## cesarh (May 16, 2007)

*Question about your sick doves...*



Starshooter said:


> Just wanted to give you an update on the Canker outbreak in the mourning doves in my backyard.
> 
> I took the advice of mixing 1 tsp of Metronidazole to 1 lb of food. It worked. Even the sick doves could get a little down. I have not had a severly sick dove now for about a 12 days. Even the ones that I was monitoring (recognizable by unique markings) are doing extremly well. Each day they stopped by to eat, they were eating easier and getting more down. And today are showing no indications of illness.
> 
> ...


Hi Sandy...

I have sick doves... in my backyard.

Did the sick ones look like they were even more sick after the application of Metronidazole, and how many times a day did you feed them?

Thanks so much... glad to hear your doves are doing better.


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## cesarh (May 16, 2007)

I meant to say after my first application...


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