# They have finally done it!



## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

My local council in London has finally put this disgusting rule into the new tenancy agreement that we are all forced to agree to.

the exact wording is :-

"You must not feed pigeons, squirrels and other pests, either at your home, in any shared area or in the local area."

This now means that not only are council tenants not allowed to feed pigeons and squirrels in their own garden, but they must not feed them anywhere in the local area. Notice "local area" has been left undefined, which means the housing officer can set it to whatever she thinks is appropriate. As most of our housing officers seems to consider local wildlife as little better than scum I think the local area will be the whole of the borough.

This is making me feel guilty just for being human, and is having a considerable effect on my health. If it was not for the solicitor I have been lucky enough to find I would be fighting these battles single handed. If I could only find others in my local area who feel the same as I do, we could work together to alternate feeding the more vulnerable wildlife. At the moment I am forced to ignore many birds and other wildlife that are finding the sub-zero temperatures hard to cope with, and I have to watch these beautiful animals slowly starve. You can guess what this does to my state of mind.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

maybe this information will make you feel better and less guilty. I have learned that it is not wise to feed wildlife. here is the link.

http://www.paws.org/feeding-wildlife.html


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I feel for you and have been there myself. It feels quite lonely but try to find some space to be calm and consider a few things:

Well....you have a lawyer, correct ? Certainly the part about the 'local area' seems to be overstepping their authority ~ quite legally arguable, since if it means or implies vicinities which are not under the jurisdiction or ownership of the 'council'....if so, they have no power to either make such rules nor enforce them.

I had this issue with my landlord back at my old place (at the end of the day a decent guy who really tried hard to find a middle ground of some sort), when he attempted to get me to acknowledge a directive stating I could not feed in the immediate vicinity.

Yes, he was the property owner, but again it turned out that....a property owner/property enforcement entity does not have the right to claim one cannot feed a flock of Pigeons off of the property itself...at least that is what was determined in my instance.

So check that out with your solicitor.

Regarding feeding wildlife being good or bad, I understand where Spirit is coming from...and perhaps, yes, we as humans (the kind who love animals) might have a tendency to feel the wildlife 'needs' our help to survive...when in fact they were getting on OK before us and will likely after us, too.

But in and of itself, I don't necessarily think it is bad to feed the local animals; I think, honestly, it is human nature and we as a species have derived eons of not just joy but understanding from those connections. The problem becomes balancing it with moderation so the proverbial s--t doesn't hit the fan with those around you. When any of 'those' decides to go ballistic.....indeedy, legal advice is a good idea and a necessary pushback.

I would take a deep breath, consult your lawyer, and consider whether the rescues you keep in your unit can somehow be covered from the new rule by somehow either registering them as pets or yourself as some sort of...I dunno...keeper or rehabber or something. Particular consideration should be given to the fact that the council was aware of your Pigeon keeping for some time, and as I understand it they never ordered the birds out. 
Here in the US, that forms the basis for a sort of acknowledgment & acceptance of the situation; an implied consent, so to speak...even if never stated nor agreed in writing. Here in the US this is known legally as 'latches' and 'waivers'. If anything similar exists there, that might be an avenue your lawyer could pursue to protect or grandfather in something. If you have not thought of this already.

Maybe try to find any animal rights groups nearby ? Although that tends to not be a high-percentage likelihood in that they tend not to get involved in Pigeons unless cruelty is involved. But maybe scour for some other Pigeon groups ?

Just some ideas.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts Jaye, I am thinking about how I am going to get round this. Having been forced to stop helping sick animals, and then being forced to stop feeding the ones that are desperately looking for food in the frozen conditions after surviving by the help of humans since ancient Egyptian times, I realise that I must get out of London and move down with some friends in the Dorset area. It is a little difficult because they are all in very isolated spots and I am going to find it hard to find somewhere as isolated as they have, but I realise that things are only going to get worse in London, I cannot do much to help the wildlife in the local area even though I am surrounded by it, I can only take the pigeons that I already have with me. In the countryside the attitude is totally different, people do not have this negative attitude to wildlife and I will not be bothered about my pet pigeons. There is serious work I can get involved in out there that keeps me away from this broken system, and if I do see a sick animal I can help without fear of persecution.
I think the city's a finished for people like me, they must be left to the people who think the most important thing in the world is money, and people like me need to get out before it has serious effects on my mental condition.
It would have been nice if I could have found a couple of people in the local area who I could have worked with, but people are so easily led by the government and seem unable to look things up for themselves. Its a very sad situation. If any birds need help it is the pigeons in London, but I cannot fight the government by myself.

I will let you know as I slowly think out what I am going to do and how fast I am going to do it. Like I say, it just strikes me as so sad that these pigeons have got on peacefully with city dwellers for years and now all of a sudden all the normal people who would have gone out to feed them like I did as a child are now afraid to do so. What sort of world are we heading too.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

If contravene, what will be the consequence? Penalty? Imprisonment? Or forced to move?


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

my grandfathers fought a war over there so we could feed pigeons and have a few rights and freedoms, what kinda fine or penalty could they give and what legal joke would that be???? please fight that i would. 

there must be loop holes, or something


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Unfortunately the risks are big. I might get away with it once with a warning, but if I got caught again I would probably lose my tenancy. I would then be outside with the pigeons that I feel so much sympathy for. Its a Tory council and they hate the animals because they leave marks on their BMW's.

There is a certain amount of stealth that I could use, but I would have to be careful. I think having to watch the birds suffering in such bitter conditions is going to drive me away from the area before long. Like I mentioned before, I could probably carry the fight on better if I could find a few like minded people in the local area. The only other people I see feeding the pigeons is very old ladies, and I would not involve them in any kind of activism.

I was also disappointed by the lack of feedback from the biggest pigeon protection group, the "Protect the Trafalgar Square pigeons group" who even after a phone call still did not reply to my email. I was only trying to make contact.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Offhand, your two replies here sorta indicate you are still in too emotional a place right now. I do hope you pursue further conversations with your lawyer, and mention the issues I noted above....I think first and foremost that is what you should do.

You probably don't have to leave your home nor live your life like a secret agent from now on  bt you do need to figure your options and the lawyer is the most capable of providing you with that advice. The Pigeon group is good, I guess just keep trying. Also, yes if you could identify and approach any other individual who was feeding, that would help too.

When you say 'local council in London'...what does this mean, exactly ? I take it it is not a city council which has jurisdiction city-wide ? So, is it a council which oversees a particular locality or neighborhood you are in ? Or something even smaller such as a particular housing block or housing community where you live ?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

whether we chose to view an animal as a sacred symbol, a laboror , a pest or a plaything, affects it's ecology. just a few people can turn a street corner into a resource for the birds, the problem is they won't go elsewhere to do what they naturally do, fly away to the fields where seeds and legumes are. just a few folks feeding can impact how many in numbers there are as well ,which revolves around feeding more and more birds... The birds if not interfered with would go about a more natural life foraging and flying more, perhaps lower the population so they are not as numerouse and less will suffer in the long run. If they depend on the handouts ,and then the feeder/s are not there for whatever reason..people die, rules get made, city brings out poisen ect. If you give this way some thought with an open mind ,it may make some sense to you and relieve you of being a pigeon mother with guilt.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

BHenderson said:


> Unfortunately the risks are big. I might get away with it once with a warning, but if I got caught again I would probably lose my tenancy. I would then be outside with the pigeons that I feel so much sympathy for. Its a Tory council and they hate the animals because they leave marks on their BMW's.


I think you can still feed the birds secretly. After you dump the seeds, dont stay and watch. You should immediately flea. According to personal experience, neighbour (or just passer-bys) will be more furious and more likely to complain if they see a person scattering seeds feeding pgis than just seeing a flock eating a pile of seeds with the feeder being invisible. The more complaints received, the more active the officials will be. 

In 2004, our city also enacted a similar law. In the first few months after the law came into effect, ppl were really serious about it. Their reaction was like witnessing a terrorist attack if they see you feeding the pgis. Hygiene officials are ready to confront you at established pgi sites. It is really hard to feed them for the first half year. Many starved to death. But as time goes by, and ppl memory fades, the law is still there but enforcement became much more lenient. By then you can resume feeding. I think that the flocks wont be totally eliminated, but you should be prepared for some death.  Anyway, you cant expect pgis to enjoy a blissful life as people hostility towards pgis are ever-growing.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Spirit wings, I understand that your motives are good and that you think London is like the cities in America, but there has never been any natural food for pigeons in London. London is such a big city so tightly packed, that the pigeons would have to fly many miles to find natural food. People are encouraged to plant bushes in their gardens for the benefit of the birds in general, not just pigeons, but this type of food quickly runs out. For some reason more and more species of wildlife are being forced to seek food in the cities, and it has often been said that it is because the farmers no longer keep the hedgeways where the various bushes used to grow. When I was a kid you would never see a woodpigeon, but the city is now full of them. Why would they migrate to the cities? it must be because their normal food supply is becoming scarce. They are able to live on different berry's that the pigeons will not eat and therefore seem to find food for much longer once the cold weather sets in. They are also learning to take food when there are humans distributing seed, although they are much shyer.
Since I was a kid, and for a long time before that, there has been a natural love of the pigeon as they were one of the only forms of wildlife that you used to see in the city. Old couples used to purposefully go out to feed the pigeons wherever they gathered. Its true that the quality of the food probably was not as good as see as most used to feed the pigeons stale bread and other scraps, but there was never piles of pigeons fighting over just a few seeds as there are at the moment. Slowly complaints started about how the pigeons were damaging the statues(something we now know to be untrue, its the traffic that is destroying the statues) and people with expensive cars would complain that their paint work was being damaged by the pigeons. It was officially sanctioned as a tourist attraction for years with people in Trafalgar Square selling pots of seed for the tourists to buy and the pigeons would come up and beg for the seed.
Its only when politicians started to take against the pigeons that a propaganda campaign was started to slowly poison the minds of the public, who seem to believe anything the government tells them. People started to believe they could catch nasty diseases from these pigeons and started to argue with the old people and children who used to feed the pigeons like I did when I was a child. Over time the main source of food for the pigeons, namely the old people, disappeared because they did not want people moaning at them. People like me started to look out for the health of the pigeons and ever since then the various local governments have been outlawing us from helping the pigeons. The only place this does not seem to be happening is in the countryside where people have a different attitude to animals(and also there are more natural sources of food for them). I hope this helps you understand the situation much better from my perspective, I have no choice but to watch these animals dies slowly of starvation and cold.

Jaye, I am at a stage where I feel I cannot keep fighting the council alone. I have other things that are important to me and this battle is taking up more and more of my energy. I feel I have little choice but to move out of London. I doubt I would have much trouble getting a swap as there are lots of people in the countryside that think the streets of London are paved with gold.

I am being careful not to name the exact local authority that governs the area that I live in, as they have a reputation for shutting down sites that contain criticism of their management techniques, including in the past criticism of their bullying techniques. For the sake of Pigeon-Talk I have avoided naming the local authority in case they use a search engine to find sites with criticism of them.

P.s. longlive_pigeon your idea is a good one, and one I have heard is used by one group in London with success. I am going to adjust some baggy trousers so that they have big pockets and I can pull a string or something and drop a small pile of seed!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The point is, they do need to fly many miles for food, that Is the point. It is better in the long run for all of them. Pigeons do that naturally, it is not a bad thing, they fly many miles in the natural state without interference or easy feed, as in handouts....they really should learn how to be like what mother nature intended them to do before humans changed it by making it easy to eat. They will survive in the long run and may even be healthier and safer in the fields their ancestors found a living.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

thats really sad, the wild pigeons do fly many miles for food how ever children and other people who cant keep pigeons or pet should have a right to feed our friendly feathery friends. gee how many guys got into racing pigeons or show pigeons from feeding wild pigeons when they were kids?


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Your argument might hold some water if humans had not in the first place caused this behavior, and now it no longer suits them they want to abandon the pigeons who are just left confused and without the skills to find what would have been their natural food. And to top it all people like me are left watching these birds starve to death slowly whilst begging at the window for a little food. Its enough to send someone over the top when it comes not from some necessary change but from an arrogance and lack of empathy on the part of the humans. I honestly feel ashamed to be human. Not only are we managing, despite all our clever inventions, to destroy the planet through our greed, but we also do not use the skill that is supposed to have set us apart and allowed us to get to the top of the animal kingdom, namely empathy.

I'm sorry, but no matter how things are worded, I can see nothing but lack of understanding and overactive ego behind many of the mistakes that man is making.

P.s. Its not only animals that need to get back to their natural feeding habits, only man could have half the world starving whilst the other half is dying prematurely of diseases caused by too much food and too little natural movement.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

i agree and rock doves live everywhere man kind does, they need us at this point i m sure the little guys are in every corner of the globe cuz we took them there. just think i m in northern canada it gets to -50*C in the winter here and +30* in the summer and the pigeons are in a barn, an out building but never far from a human. what harm is there to feed them? 

these people in london must be nuts to be able give you the boot for feeding them, do they have any ideas how many guys have pigeons there? TELL THEM THERE HOMING PIGEONS THAT BELONG TO SOME ONE YOU KNOW AND YOUR CARING FOR THEM, cuz there might have bin homers at one point a generation ago..... i could go on but really i love my birds and i would fight for the right to feed, care for and enjoy them.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

BH ~ Everything you have said is well-spoken. Trust me, I understand the feeling of being completely alone and seemingly getting sh#t from all sides (even, shockingly, people who I considered my friends) when it comes to Pigeons.

I guess I would just implore you to meet with your lawyer again and have them look things over. Oftentimes (actually quite often) policies like this are drafted and they end up being over-reaching. But if nobody challenges them, then they stay. 

This is almost one of those situations where it has fallen to you, given that you already have legal aid, to be the person to question the legality of some, if not all, aspects of this directive. 
Even if you ultimately decide to move, I hope that for the time being you can find the time and energy to manage to initiate that sort of legal scrutinizing. 
It may seem like a 'one vs. the system' fight, but there are certainly people and Pigeons down the road and in the future who would be effected, and although they may never know of your efforts...those efforts may bear some fruit which makes things better than they now seem to be. But someone has to take the initiative to legally review that policy.

It seems to me there are some things in there which are challengable.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

That is the excuse I am using for the pigeons that live with me Roger, I have told the council that they are Rollers that were injured and were going to be put down. This may well work in the end as far as my personal pigeons are concerned, but my solicitor says its a bit of a gamble and it definitely would not work for the whole flock outside unfortunately. I feel the same way as you about the unfair treatment of the pigeons, but there are not enough people protesting about it, so I think in the end I will end up moving down with my friends in Dorset. I would love to offer the help that the London pigeons need more than any others, but even the main pigeon group in London has not replied to me yet. They are too busy fundraising.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

If you're on facebook, have you had contact with this group (London Wildlife Protection): https://www.facebook.com/groups/469422019779538/


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Excellent John, I am trying to make first contact now. Thank you.

It looks like I have to wait for them to ok me for membership, but after that I will try to find out if there are other members near me.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I really don't know if they can be helpful on this - I just recall that one of the admins was posting elsewhere about council regs on feeding pigeons somewhere in W London a while back (don't know exactly which part) so some of them are kinda activist types.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

Thats what I am hoping for. Even if they are not that much into activism, I just feel totally isolated round here and its hard to make yourself heard. Its like people are becoming afraid to protest about anything. I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

Thanks again John.


Jaye - I'm sorry I missed your post. I am thinking along the lines that you mention, but as I mentioned above, it seems to be that people are afraid to get involved in things these days. Its like people are getting used to the bullying tactics of the local government and don't want to be on the wrong side. I would certainly work better in a partnership or small group. My solicitor is good but she does not seem to want to challenge the pigeon feeding directly as there is such a negative atmosphere round here towards pigeons. If there is anything we can do I expect her to pick up on it though.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

John I finally got into the London Wildlife Protection group, and they seem like a good bunch. I have already been offered a place that looks great for my pigeons in case the council do manage to get a court order against me. They are also keen to offer me support in my fight against the council and I think there is a good chance that if there are pigeon people closer to me in London I am likely to find them there. They have some projects where they need volunteers occasionally and that would be another good place for me meet people. I wanted to thank you for your effort in putting me in contact with this group. I have referred them back here if they want to check out my history, just so they get some idea who I am and that I have been treating pigeons for a while. Thanks again, I would not have found this place without your help.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

That is excellent news ! With that group plus your legal counsel...it isn't such a lonely battle at all, anymore. It is always good to have allies. Utilize them both in this instance; I am going to bet there are legal cracks in that directive...there usually are.

Keep us posted.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I solicitor is saying that my housing officer is persecuting me, and I think she is going to try and get me a barrister if they do take it to court. Lets hope for the best. The councils seem to have so much power now, you begin to wonder if its about who is right and wrong or if it is about who is more powerful. If power makes the difference then I don't have much of a chance. All good vibes welcomed!!!!!


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

I think the landlords has all the rights to set rules or regulations onto their properties.
That means you cannot feed pigeons anywhere in the housing campus.
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Very long time ago, I lived in an apartment. I fed the feral pigeons, and my landlord told me in person stop doing that. I fed feral pigeons in the malls, and on the streets in downtown. There is no landlords around these areas. My son is now 10 years old, and he told me that the police may fine me for littering.
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Now I have my house, and I feed the wild birds in my property. My neighbor told me not to do that, for the birds pooping on their roof and vehicles.
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If you have time, you may go to YouTube and watch my Video Clips with the keywords of "Feral pigeons in Hartford, Connecticut." There is no law on how to feed the pigeons in Hartford, but if the population is increasing, we can no longer feed them. I received many bad comments from people passing by. I told them "Yes. Sir. You are right." A woman told me loudly in the public, "You are stupid." A man, appear to be a superintendent, told me "If you feed them, feed them poison." I found that in Hartford, the hating pigeons is the majority, even the young, only at twenties. They show their hatred publicly.
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I only feed them in the winter. I do not feed them in the summer, for they seem not interested in my feeding in summer as they do in the winter times.
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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I try to keep feeding secret, but it is hard as the pigeons give away what you are doing without realising they are causing a problem by following you around once the get to know you. I can no longer stand the attitude of city dwellers, I do not want to be in the cities any more. In the countryside people have a more sensible attitude to wildlife.


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