# Question about air in crop of 5 day old baby



## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

Hello everyone-

I found what I believe to be a two day old baby pigeon three days ago on the ground at the park. I could not find the nest, so I took it home and started researching online about how to care for it. THANK GOODNESS for this forum!!!! You are an amazing bunch!

I read a LOT of the threads here and have been feeding the baby KT Exact about 5 times per day. At first I was using an eyedropper, but that was not going well (took forever, and the baby had trouble getting the hang of it), so I switched to the syringe/balloon method after reading about it here. Yay! Feedings are so much quicker and more effective! Baby seems perky and active (except for when it's sleeping, of course), its eyes are open and it's pooping regularly. It's growing like mad! 

The question I have is regarding the crop. It seems to be emptying of all formula between feedings, but thecrop never gets flat even after all of the formula seems digested. There are no hard lumps or anything like that, so I don't think crop stasis is an issue. I suspected that what was left in the crop was air, but got confirmation of this when I was feeding the baby just now and could see (from the side when backlit) that the formula was sloshing around in the crop - like a balloon filled partway with air and the other part water. My concern is that if there is air in the crop, there is less room for formula. I'm also wondering if this is an indication of a larger problem developing, or if it just got a bunch of air in the crop when we were using the eye dropper for feedings and just has no way of getting the air out.

How can I tell if the air in the crop is from the awkward eye dropper feeding we were doing OR if it's an indication of a more serious problem like canker or candida? It does not seem to be getting worse - it's been there since we were feeding with the eye dropper (which was only on the first day). 

Can the bird be manually burped somehow? Is that advisable? Or should it be left alone? 

The baby is otherwise quite happy, responsive, growing, pooping and doing all the things I would imagine a baby bird would do. There are no funny smells or anything like that. My mommy instinct tells me that it just got air in there and does not have an effective means for getting it out, but I thought I would run it by you guys because it's bothering me. Heck, I know reading a bunch of posts on a forum does not make me an expert.

Thanks for reading,

Jennifer


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Jennifer......just wanted to say.......hold on.......someone will be helping you shortly I'm sure..............thanks for saving the baby by the way. Good luck with it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You're doing great with the baby, Jennifer. Thank you for rescuing this little sweetie.
Lets hope it is just air in the crop and nothing more serious. From his behavior he seems to be fine.
You can gently massage the crop in between feedings and see if it helps (not right after the feedings, let him first digest most of the food).
Let us know how it goes.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I recently raised one to completion that did the same thing. I finally just stopped worrying about it and fed him on schedule and when he finally got feathered enough to cover it, he started looking pretty normal. I ran a tube all the way down and you'd have thought that that alone would have been like sticking a needle in a balloon but it never did. I've also seen that in chicks in my loft. That's not to say that there isn't a problem, just that if he's eating and pooping just fine, it might not be anything to worry about.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi artschoolgirl,



Glad you noticed the Crop issue when you did!

...I am sure we/you will be able get it taken care of nicely...


Where are you?

And...

What Species Baby is this do you think?





If it is a Pigeon Baby, it is very common for neophytes to give the Baby a Candida or Yeast infection, and for various reasons which derive from how they are doing things. So, later, when I get back, we can review how you are doing things, and also, how things may be done to make for a happy healthy Baby.

Candida or Yeasts infecting them, can begin in the Crop from feeding mistakes, or from just useing plain KT, and then make for a gassy Crop, or inflated Crop, and if left unchecked, a static Crop finally, which does not empty, as the food still in it continues to spoil and make toxins...this, with a spreading infection, stasis of the digestive system, listlessness and decline, and death.


My regimen for this is to make up some ACV-Water, which in this case, will be -


Three Tablespoons of Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, into a Gallon of Water...and to use THIS 'Water' then for mixing their formula.


The Baby needs to be kept continuously and adequately "warm", to about one's own 'core' body temperature, or a little more, so HE himself is that temperature through and through...if they get chilled, or chilled and then fed, especially if force fed where the Baby did not even want any, they can get sick then from being internally less than the temperature they need to be to process food, or get Yeast or Candida illness, since the food in their crop starts to spoil, and the organisms of spoilage begin also attacking him, and making toxins, and it all gets worse from there.


Feeding them left over formula from prior feedings can also be bad in this way, unless one observes various guidelines.


Mixing formula with 'hot' tap water is also bad...


Feeding just-mixed formula which has not 'sat' for at least half an hour with plenty of Water before stirring, is also bad...and if not mixed to almost perfect homogenuity, can male little lumps that stick to the inside sides of their Crop and start to fester and spoil there, starting a process of illness or even injury also.

This ( feeding just after mixing, ) can also make a 'slug' of semi-impervious food material which will not pass and can be hard to dissolve then, and is shaped in such a way that it's presence in the Crop may be hard to even detect.


The dry ingredients need an hour almost to absorb what Water they will...so feeding just mixed formula makes the food absorb what water it can while IN the Baby's Crop, and since typically not much water is in there, the food material thickens and gets resistant then to dissolving even when Water is given.



So...

Mix the formula as follows -


Ingredients in a Tea Cup or small Bowl...


Add enough clean "cold" tap Water or bottled Water, or ACV-Water in this case, to cover, and to have maybe 3/8ths of an inch or 1/2 an inch clear ACV-Water on top of the "not stirred" dry and whatever other ingredients. Do not Stirr...just let this sit. Cover it snug with a lid of some sort, and let it sit in the refrigerator.



Then, after it has sat, "stirr" and make sure all is smooth and homogenious, which will be easy to do for having let it sit like that. You can stirr it while warming it.

For which, take a Pan, put 1/2 inch of Water in it, and warm the Water on the Stove.

Do not use a "microwave" oven to warm it.



When the Water is fairly warm, 'hot' to the touch say, take it off the heat, set the cup or little bowl of formula in it, and stirr till all is uniformly warm, so the hot Water is warming the little Cup or Bowl, and the forumla then, should be allowed to be the same "warm" as the underside of your wrist.

If you use a metal Spoon to stirr it, just press the Spoon fresh from stirring onto the underside of your wrist, to see if it is about right.


This then is the 'right' temerature for the formula to be, for feeding it to him.


Similarly, to offer Water between meals for him to drink, make the Water tepid, and guide his Beak into some small warmed container of the Water.



I myself feed them from their inserting their Beaks ( if with initial guidance to do so, ) into the hollow side of a conventionsl soft rubber Baby Bottle Nipple...and this I use also to offer Water. I hold the Nipple like a cup in front of them...at about neck height.


How are you feeding this little one?


And...


How old do you think this Baby is?


More later...!


Got to run..

Phil
Las Vegas


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

What an amazing community you are here! Thanks for the rapid response! 

I've raised human babies ) ) and done rat rescue in the past, even with a roof rat that was just a few days old. It's been pretty easy to tell with any of the babies I've raised when additional medical intervention was necessary. I don't get the feeling that this is anything serious. My instincts have always proved accurate in the past.

Perhaps all of you could tell me what types of behavioral changes would indicate that there is a serious problem? I would assume crop stasis, lethargy, not gaining weight, etc. But are there any other symptoms specific to birds like the color or consistency of the poop, odd smells, etc?

I feel like maybe watchful waiting is a good approach, but I will need to know what to look for.

Thanks again, you amazing pigeon lovers!

Jennifer


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Jennifer, a normal poop should be brown or green in color with some white(urates) in the basic center of it. It should be of "cookie dough" consistency, and not overly smelly. Should not he watery either.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 



If there is Gas or inflation of the Crop...it IS a "serious problem".


Would you kindly read the prior post I submitted for your issue? Above?


I hate to see it not even noticed...especially when it does contain the information you had asked for.



Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Hey Phil.......*

See my responses in bold below.



pdpbison said:


> Hi artschoolgirl,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

Phil,

With all due respect, the reply I posted was a general reply to the others that had responded. I was writing my reply to you when I got interrupted and had to tend to my own (human) children.

Sheesh.......



pdpbison said:


> Hi Jennifer,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Thanks Victor*

The poops are right on target then. I've been keeping a tissue (non lotion variety) under the bird in order to monitor the poops.



Victor said:


> Hi Jennifer, a normal poop should be brown or green in color with some white(urates) in the basic center of it. It should be of "cookie dough" consistency, and not overly smelly. Should not he watery either.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Great job Jennifer. Between the children and your rescue, you do have your hands full.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 



Oh...


Okay then...


Best wishes, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi artschoolgirl, welcome to PT and thanks for rescuing this little baby. The raw ACV is a good way to go for now, and it can help w/a multitude of health issues for the baby. A product such as Bragg's is best for this application as it has the mother in it which has nutrients and inherent probiotics that make up the 'cloudy part' known as the mother which other ACV products may not always contain. Sometimes words lose something in the translation between thought and paper, though a baby's crop is an area of concern. Fortunately, crop issues may work out on their own sometimes, but we truly need to watch crop issues closely. If you have any questions regarding possible acceleration of symptoms, then please check in and share your concerns.

If you have not yet checked inside the babies mouth, please do so and look for the coloration of the tissue there. We are looking for a pinkish coloring w/out any "growths" be they cheesy color or texture or otherwise. Much like for you or I this would definitely be a health concern if observed.... so pink and clear gets good gradings.

Sounds like you have a good handle on things and are keeping a close eye, so once again, thanks for helping this vulnerable little baby.

fp


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Thanks...*

I checked inside the baby's mouth and it's a pale dullish pink, all smooth with no apparent growths or discoloration. 

And, I'm glad Braggs is the way to go as that's the only ACV I've ever used. 

So, theoretically if there IS an issue developing, will the Bragg's help with all possible causes of gas in the crop? Does it work for both canker AND candida?

I'm going to go out after my kids go to bed and pick up a fresh bottle of the raw, organic Braggs ACV and will add it to the water tonight before the first feeding.

Thanks again!



feralpigeon said:


> Hi artschoolgirl, welcome to PT and thanks for rescuing this little baby. The raw ACV is a good way to go for now, and it can help w/a multitude of health issues for the baby. A product such as Bragg's is best for this application as it has the mother in it which has nutrients and inherent probiotics that make up the 'cloudy part' known as the mother which other ACV products may not always contain. Sometimes words lose something in the translation between thought and paper, though a baby's crop is an area of concern. Fortunately, crop issues may work out on their own sometimes, but we truly need to watch crop issues closely. If you have any questions regarding possible acceleration of symptoms, then please check in and share your concerns.
> 
> If you have not yet checked inside the babies mouth, please do so and look for the coloration of the tissue there. We are looking for a pinkish coloring w/out any "growths" be they cheesy color or texture or otherwise. Much like for you or I this would definitely be a health concern if observed.... so pink and clear gets good gradings.
> 
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

artschoolgirl said:


> Phil,
> 
> With all due respect, the reply I posted was a general reply to the others that had responded. I was writing my reply to you when I got interrupted and had to tend to my own (human) children.
> 
> Sheesh.......



Hi Jeniffer, 




How was I supposed to know that?

Or, I had no way to know that.


I'm sorry for any rub here with this...truely...


But there is no reason to be attacking me and being overblown in haughty or condesending drama, when I had not in any way insulted or attacked you.



If you are appearently still seeking information I had already posted for you, how am I supposed to know this means you 'of course' are only 'appearing' to do so?

Or that you will feel justified to become extremely defensive if I kindly direct your attention TO the information you had asked for, which is already posted?

"Sheeeesh!" indeed!



Try and see my end of this please - 

I was not being rude or precipitous, I simply wished to direct your attention in an unambiguous way, to the information you had asked for, that I had written for you, since there was no hint in your subsequent post, that you had even noticed it being there at all.



Often, people writing in do not notice replys, or are too distracted or befuddled to read them critically, and or they are composing a new post while a reply to them is posted, and then, they see and check their own new post, but do not look 'above' it, to know that meanwhile, other posts had been submitted..and meanwhile, they keep asking variations of the same question, which I or someone else has perhaps very thoroughly answered already.


This happens easily, and is not anyone's fault...or certainly not in any way where hostility is an appropriate response.



Hope we can get back on the right foot...!


May we?


Best wishes, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*So, where were we?*

Hey Phil-

I was mentally composing my apology on the drive home from the health food store just now. Then I got home and saw your post....

So, I was going to say that I was overly defensive and a bit *****y, and I take full responsibilty for and apologize for that. I'm sorry - I didn't mean to be the source of drama. I'm really kind of sleep deprived right now (.....yeah, it's not really working for me.  , not to mention a bit worried after reading your response....... However, I really could have handled that better.

I think we've already blown the 'getting off on the right foot' thing. So, how's about we just start over all together?

Hi Phil-

My name is Jennifer and I'm writing to get some advice on a problem I've having with a squab I'm hand feeding. I've pulled up your posting history and can see that you are incredibly experienced with pigeons and was wondering if you could lend your expertise here. The situation is.......

(I'm not being facetious.)

I hope you'll accept my apologies.

Oh, and thank you for the detailed formula-mixing instructions. I was NOT letting the formula sit for at least a half hour, so I will right that and go with your method from now on. I also just got the Braggs, so I'm going to add that to the water for the last feeding tonight. And, then I'm going to get some sleep (so I can function normally again!) 

Thanks,

Jennifer


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*You Put Your Right Foot In .. You Put Your Right Foot Out ..*

Thanks Jennifer and Phil .. you guys got your footsies working right now  

http://www.iselong.com/online/Flash_Songs_For_Kids/LittleFox/Hokey_Pokey.swf

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hey artschoolgirl,

I'm going to bed soon as well...in answer to your question regarding Bragg's
and canker,candida, yes it will help with controlling the growth of populations for both organisms and some undesirable bacterial ones as well.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

artschoolgirl said:


> I checked inside the baby's mouth and it's a pale dullish pink, all smooth with no apparent growths or discoloration.
> 
> And, I'm glad Braggs is the way to go as that's the only ACV I've ever used.
> 
> ...


Hi Jennifer, 



Anyway...

No, I wish it would! - but "ACV-Water" will not cure "Canker".


It will reduce the rate of multiplication, or even exterminate many undesireable micro organisms in the Crop, and appearently elsewhere in their system also, and is excellent for being used concurrently with many other regimens for variuous illnesses or infections or just for good measure.


People feeding plain K-T to Baby Pigeons routinely create Candida problems in those Babys, and often, have no idea how it happenned, and have no idea how to ammend it, or get very defensive and closed off, if it is pointed out to them, "how" it happens, since "that" is how THEY learned to do it.

Just the KT will do this!

So, if one is only going to feed plain KT, one does well to also begin an ACV-Water diet/regimen.


It is that simple...


That way?

No inflated Crop....no Gas, no Candida, no dead or listless or dieing Babys from Yeasts or Candida infections, given them BY the caregiver's innocent enough rote habits or praxis.





Regarding your other passing question of what 'else' to look for?

If you see any 'chaulky' yellow urates, or chaulky yellow liquid, in or with the poops or in liquid stains attending bowell movements, this can be practically regarded as a sign of Canker somewhere in the Baby's system, whether or not any lesions or signs are to be seen in the Throat, or possibly Navel or Vent area...


Best wishes, 

Hope this helps...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 



Your last post appeared as I was composing my one above this one.


Oh good, all's well now, so...now we can get to the fun parts...


'Peepers' are such a delight, and yours will soon be over this 'gas' business and you can post some pictures for all of us to go "Ooooooo!" over...


Which we will, too...


Anyway, if it was me, I'd mix up a plastic Gallon Jug of Water with three Tablespoons of the raw ACV...and use this for his formula mixing, and, for his occasions of being offered a drink.


If you are not sure how to offer him a drink, or one where he will drink on his own, I will be glad to post some tedious rambley details for the matter to be made easy.


Between-meal Water drinks are a very good idea for these Babys, as too, is a 'soupy' formula...



Sleep good...!


I too am way sleep deprived, have a wanging headache, and ate crappy restaurant food today cause I was harried and starved like usual.

And I do not even HAVE kids to take care of...!


So, welcome to the club...


Lol...


Till next, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Jennifer!

Welcome to Pigeon Talk!

Nice to see another "Valley of the Sun" pigeon lover! There are a few of us around.

You are in good hands with Phil, who I have nicknamed, "Dr. Doolittle." He not only talks to his pijies but they answer him! Hopefully, he will describe some of his "hand techniques." He truly is a "pigeon whisperer."

I see some of our other knowledgeable members have posted too. You and your pijie are in great hands. 

Have you thought of a name for your baby yet? Are you able to post pictures?

You are certainly in for an incredible love affair! 

We eagerly look forward to your future updates. Keep up the great work!

Shi
& Mr. Squeaks


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Jennifer,
If you need any assistance, especially 'hands on', we have a local rehabber in Chandler. Here's the link to her website.

http://www.eastvalleywildlife.org/company_info.htm

Cindy


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## creatures289 (May 3, 2007)

Hi, Jennifer.

I'm Renee from NJ and formerly a state licensed wildlife rehabilitator. I have treated lots of pigeons over the years.

Couple of questions:

How old is this baby...any idea. Is it feathered, just pins...what? You would be surprised at how quickly they can learn to eat seed from watching other pigeons. You place their enclosure next to adult enclosure...say a carrier...so the baby can see the adult feeding.

Regarding formula, there are tools you can buy that you attach to a syringe (w/o the needle, of course). You fill the syringe with formula, attach the instrument and insert it into the crop from the side of the slit area. You obviously are aware to keep away from the slit. Make sure there is no air in the syringe. I can only guess that there is air entering the crop as you are trying to feed. I will see if I can locate a place for you to buy the attachment for the syringe. It's basically a steel attachment...it works really well. 

However, if the baby is a couple of weeks of age, should be able to eat on it's own.

Renee from NJ


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Hi Renee*

I'm originally a Jersey girl myself. 

Anyway, this little one is just about 5-6 days old today (give or take a day). I determined that from looking at the pictures from the thread titled " Day to day pictures of baby pigeon development". No sign of pin feathers yet.

I'm really not comfortable with the idea of feeding directly into the crop. For one thing, it's incredibly invasive. Secondly, I'm just not experienced enough and would be afraid I would do more damage than good. If it came to that (if that type of feeding needed to be done) I would take it to a rehabber and either have them show me or let them take over caring for the little one.

This is my first experience caring for a baby bird. Of course, when I was a kid, I was always trying to "save" the near dead babies that had fallen from the nests in the tall pine trees in our yard, but had no idea how to go about doing it. And, of course, there was no internet to refer to back then.... 

So, we've completed the second feeding with the ACV water mixed into the KT Exact powder..... We shall see......

Jennifer



creatures289 said:


> Hi, Jennifer.
> 
> I'm Renee from NJ and formerly a state licensed wildlife rehabilitator. I have treated lots of pigeons over the years.
> 
> ...


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Hey there, fellow Phoenician!*

We have named the pijie P. G. Fluff 'n' Stuff, but just call him "peeps" for short, since that's the sound we hear the most! He's a talker. I feel like we're having a conersation sometimes, especially before/after feeding, when I'm cleaning him up, etc. I'll talk to him and when I pause, he will "peep" his response, I reply, he peeps back and so on.... It's quite funny! 

I will try to get some pics to post later tonight, although it may not be until tomorrow.... I was thinking of trying to post a video of him before, during, and after feeding. Then everyone here would have more of a sense for how he's doing.

I have a very very full day today. I will be able to pop online to check for responses here though. And, luckily I have a job where peeps can come to work with me. It's funny.....he has his own birdie 'diaper bag' that I bring along with all of the supplies he could possibly need while I'm there. I only work part time (about 4-5 hours) but I just wouldn't feel right leaving him home alone at this point.

Jennifer



mr squeaks said:


> Hi Jennifer!
> 
> Welcome to Pigeon Talk!
> 
> ...


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*One more question re: canker*

So, I was reading a lot of posts last night, going through the archives, reading about others' experiences rearing babies this young. Although pigeons seem to be pretty hardy in general, they are pretty vulneranble at this stage, it seems.

I'm wondering if it would be advisable to treat the baby with meds for canker as a pre-emptive measure, since that is one of the things that could be causing gas in the crop. Is this just a dumb idea? I dunno, I read a lot of posts last night where, when canker was discovered in a little one, it was too late for the meds to take effect and the baby died within a couple of days.

Is this a hair-brained idea or reasonable preventative measure? Maybe I'm just paranoid after all of the posts I read about babies dying.....

Jennifer


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 



No, I would not pre-emptively treat for Canker, especially not on one this young.


The ( 3 Tablespoons to the Gallon, ) ACV-Water should ammend the Crop 'gas' ( Candida /Yeasts infection ) problem, but as you mention, you are not used to feeding Babys of this kind, or of this age Pigeon-Baby wise, and, few people are.

I know of no other cases than those which may occasion inflated Crops.


I know you are useing a heating pad, and the trick with this is to make sure the Baby themselves is throughly "warm" continuously, and "warm" in this case means the Baby himself is about 100 - 104 degrees...and free from indoor drafts.

If he starts panting, then he is too warm.

If he is not kept warm enough, there will be problems.

95 degrees is not warm enough...nor is an 80 degree ambient temp of any import...

If the underside of the Baby does not feel warmer than the underside of your wrist, he is not warm enough...



The biggest problem is not the Baby, or illness the Baby somehow 'has'...but in how we feed and care for them or give them illness or injury without meaning to, from what we do and how we do things.


There is nothing pre-emptive which can be done about 'that', other than to learn. And overall, there is a lot to learn for the bases to be covered, for his sake.


I am not that far away, if you or anyone you know is headed up this way, I would be happy to take over and see him through from here.


They are very easy to feed in the manner I mentioned initially - useing a Baby Nipple, or the "hollow" side of one, or at this age, the cut off-end of one, for Beaks this small...


Where, when gestures with him are made correctly, he will gladly insert his Beak into the hollow side of the cut off end of the Nipple, to eat out of it...and with great enthusiasm, soon as he is feeling better anyway...or for him to drink out of it also...but you also have to hold it right for him TO do this, and other finesses...if offering water, it too has to be near body temperature or he will reject it and be distrusting of the offers after.


If he needs to be drinking the ACV-Water, in addition to having it in his formula, how are you having him do this, or getting it into him?


With the 'Nipple', they are the active agent in their feeding and eating, and we do nothing invasive.


Then too, are matters of formula which are not 'just" KT, but have other ingredients also...prepaired in deference to their age and condition, which are far better for the Baby than the plain powder would be.


If you want more info on this, I will be glad to supply it.


Otherwise, while 'easy', none of this is 'easy' unless one is familiar with it from practice...there are no rote practices which can defer to individual Babys, there are no methods which are not, at once, composed of a great many small things, which if not observed, can become 'big' problems for the Baby...or impediments which make things not-easy.


Older Babys are more forgiving...but only somewhat...



Invasive feeding can scrape the inside Crop for bacteria or Yeasts or whatever else to infest and infect.

Ivasive feeding at this age especially, ( unless done with the softest - like overdone spaghetii - Silicone Catheter for example, ) also can make puncture injurys in their Crops which can make serious problems pro-tem, and then eventuate slow demise.

Trying to use an Eye Dropper can cause formula to get into their Trachea and if they aspirate it they can die in minutes or slowly over days from bacterial pnuemonia.


So...how have you been feeding him?


Till next...

Best wishes you two...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

artschoolgirl said:


> I'm wondering if it would be advisable to treat the baby with meds for canker as a pre-emptive measure, since that is one of the things that could be causing gas in the crop. Is this just a dumb idea? I dunno, I read a lot of posts last night where, when canker was discovered in a little one, it was too late for the meds to take effect and the baby died within a couple of days.
> 
> Is this a hair-brained idea or reasonable preventative measure? Maybe I'm just paranoid after all of the posts I read about babies dying.....
> 
> Jennifer




Hi Jennifer, 


Again, specifically, there is no known association I have ever encountered between Canker and inflated Crops, unless the Canker preceeds or attends the Candida or Yeasts which are the Crop inflators.


Canker does not occasion inflated Crops, unless it is so developed as to effectively block the passage to the Stomach, and for there to be then, subsequent Yeasts or Candida opportuning on the spoiling food which is in stasis in the Crop.


If you are not seeing 'chaulky yellow' liquid or urates when he poops, there is no reason to suspect Canker in this Baby.


If he is not making 16 to 20 or so poops in 24 hours, he is not being fed enough.

Soon, in a couple to three weeks, it will be 30, then 45 poops in 24 hours, and they will be larger of course...


Yours,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Phil*

Quick response here - don't have time for an in depth one, but will try for late tonight.

Baby has consistently stayed warm to the touch, at least as warm or warmer than the underside of my wrist. I think he was actually too warm in the beginning - sweaty looking, lethargic - so I've adjusted the heathing pad setting and the way I position his box on it. 

I have been feeding him with the method where you cut off the end of a syringe and put a piece of fabric or balloon over the end, cut a slice in it, and let the baby insert its beak. Will pick up the nipples and try your method. For giving water, I have been using the bulb end of an eyedropper and allowing his beak to dip in and get water.

The gassiness seems much better this morning. He's alert and peeping, when he's not sleeping. I will keep on truckin' and get back online this evening for a status report. I likely will not be until after 8:30 PM though.

Have a good day!

Jennifer


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Jennifer....

You might want to try an antacid; ie: rolaids or tums just the plain/unflavoured ones. Just a quarter of a tablet, mixed with clean water and syringed. Otherwise, keep massaging the crop, keep the KT mixed VERY well and thoroughly with no lumps or powder remnants remaining. 

This youngster is pretty young and the circumstances are unknown for the most part. All you can do is what you think is best and work by instinct...you seem to have a lot of that.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Glad to hear Fluff n Stuff (aka Peeps) seems to be doing fine!

Usually with a heating pad, a suggestion is often made to have an area where the bird can get off the pad if it wants. 

Wait until your little one starts "voice" changing. Then he will become a "croaker" before he gets his adult "voice" (sometime after 35 days or so). Sounds soooo funny. 

Phil's nipple method has always seemed so easy to me. However, if all is going well with BOTH of you, then go for the gusto! You DO have more food to dispense with a syringe than a nipple, although Phil's nipple method seems more "natural"...

How lucky you are to be able to take Peeps to work. Another member, Pidgey, also did the same thing with a young 'un not too long ago, but he was working FULL time..  

Look forward to developmental updates!!

HUGS and SCRITCHES

Shi & Mr. Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

artschoolgirl said:


> Quick response here - don't have time for an in depth one, but will try for late tonight.
> 
> Baby has consistently stayed warm to the touch, at least as warm or warmer than the underside of my wrist. I think he was actually too warm in the beginning - sweaty looking, lethargic - so I've adjusted the heathing pad setting and the way I position his box on it.
> 
> ...




Hi Jennifer, 


Sounds good...excellent...

I know you can understand, I tend to 'worry' a little...

Lol...


Once he is done with the Crop issue, there will be much more assertiveness, and emphatic 'squeaking' and 'peeping' and 'Nuzzleing' and Wing-Action of flapping when being fed...pushing for all he is worth with those little legs...


I will see if I can find some images or links to images of Nipples and feeding...

Some of what is so nice about this method, is it allows a very 'soupy' formula, for the Babys on-going hydration, ( which in our arid climes, still admits in-beteewn-meals drinks of Water as their own thing) while also allowing small whole Seeds and other things to be in the formula also ( which a Lavage or other 'tube' will not abide)...and since the Baby is eating from the Nipple where the Nipple is tilted only some ways from level, none of the this spills out...



The Nipple also acts intermediately, once they are familiar with it, for readying them to another method for them eating small whole plain dry seeds on their own, where in in less than a day, or sometimes in five minutes, one can quide them to be them pecking and self feeding with Seeds...this is about ten days away or so presently....but at two weeks, he can be self feeding as something for augmenting his primarily being-fed, and it is 'easy' to do when the continuity is followed starting with the Nipple...



I am anxious to share some formula recipes, as for their various ingredients, so please encourage me to outline them...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Jennifer....
> 
> You might want to try an antacid; ie: rolaids or tums just the plain/unflavoured ones. Just a quarter of a tablet, mixed with clean water and syringed. Otherwise, keep massaging the crop, keep the KT mixed VERY well and thoroughly with no lumps or powder remnants remaining.
> 
> This youngster is pretty young and the circumstances are unknown for the most part. All you can do is what you think is best and work by instinct...you seem to have a lot of that.



Hi Pigeonpal, 


This would be contraindicated in situations where the Bird is being given ACV-Water.


Too, the ACV-Water inhibits or eradicates a great many undesireable bacteria and other micro-organisms, as well as effecting a cessation of Yeats or Candida by changing the PH to ( enough of ) an 'acidic' one which they can not abide...

And, if one wished to introduce a decidly Aclaline substance to shift the PH the opposite way, it would have to be a regimen done only as itself, and not along with the on-going regimen of the ACV-Water.


I do not know if shifting the PH the opposite way will effect as good a result against these Organisms or infestations/infections, or, ia decidedly Alcaline substances would additionally compromise too much his digestive chemistry, with which the ACV-Water is complimentary.


But certainly, gently massaging a recalsitrant or slow Crop, once the ACV-Regimen and for sure adequate hydration are on going, or doing so to sensitively check for 'slugs' of K-T having lost too much Water in there, or to help them dissolve and be able to move on, is a good idea, for sure...


This especially in the morning, when one would expect to find an Empty Crop...but even healthy normal robust Babys do not always empty before Morning anyway, so one has to have judgement about whether any problem is going on at all.

Gas or inflation of course is a sign of a serious problem develping.


As you may know, I make formulas of various ingredients which may include some K-T, or may not include any...and I have never had any problems with the Crops or the foods passing nicely...or with any Babys developing these problems.


I have had many Babys brought to me where people had found them and fed them for a few days or a week, where these Babys had already devloped serious Crop issues and Gassy, sodden, or inflated Crops and Static Crops, and these I was able to clear up in the manner I have described...just as with older Pigeons or Adult ones.

I have never seen anything to suggest that Wild Baby Doves or Baby Pigeons would develp inflated Crops, Gassy Crops, Crop Stasis or Candida or Yeast problems when raised by their biological parents.


Canker, yes, of course...

These others, no...


Best wishes!


Happy 'peepers'...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Link to some casual images of Nipples and Feeding - 


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


There is germain text/captions which will be there in the various viewing modes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Another -


http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2599716200067835264JwGKGB


Hope this link works...let me know?

The 'Slideshow' option on this site kills the text captions unfortunately, so...


Anyway, this Baby is close to the age of yours there Jennifer...


He and his sibling had been found when about four days old or so, a Nest had got cleared out and they were in it...so, he was kept for three days in an unheated garage when it was in the 30s out...kept in a box with some confettii..


When brought to me, was like a rubber 'doll'...laying on his side, eyes closed, just about no detectable life left at all, semi-stiff...appearing to have expired already...but for the faintest hint of some slight rubbery movement to his legs when I picked him up, which showed there was not advanced rigour mortis anyway, was about it.


Had had no food or water in that time.


Long story short, I got him revived and warmed up but could not revive the sibling.


He was develping Canker and Candida/Yeast problems from being chilled and starved almost to death for those three days there, and he was in pretty dim and feeble shape.

...did electrolytes for a while then on to some thin Chows and ACV of course and special meds for Canker in cases of such frailty where the regular meds are pretty hard on them.


Got him straightened out and all went well.


They love to eat..!




Phil
Las Vegas


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Evening Update*

So, I have to say I was SOOOOO excited tonight when I took Peeps out for his evening feeding I COULD SEE PIN FEATHERS UNDER THE SKIN THAT SHOULD BE GROWING IN SOON! (caps fully intentional - YES, I was that excited!)

He seems less gassy, and I was able to gently massage his crop tonight before the evening feeding and the air that was in ther all kinda came out at once. He had a nice full crop after his feed with no air, so if air is present in the morning, I'll know it's because something is fermenting in his crop or some other internal cause. (I hope this is sound pigeon feeding logic - correct me if it's not.  

I tried the nipple method tonight, and it was quite awkward for both of us. Wound up switching back to the syringe method after a few tries, which he really seems to go bonkers over. The syringe method seems to be working well, so I think we'll stick with that for feedings. Probably will use the nipple for offering ACV water in between though.

Oh, and in your post, you said, 

"Once he is done with the Crop issue, there will be much more assertiveness, and emphatic 'squeaking' and 'peeping' and 'Nuzzleing' and Wing-Action of flapping when being fed...pushing for all he is worth with those little legs..."

LOL!!!! He's already been doing that for the past two days! This little one has spunk to rival my own, even despite his gassiness issues!

Well, time for bed. I will update again tomorrow.

Jennifer



pdpbison said:


> Hi Jennifer,
> 
> 
> Sounds good...excellent...
> ...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

artschoolgirl said:


> * *So, I have to say I was SOOOOO excited tonight when I took Peeps out for his evening feeding I COULD SEE PIN FEATHERS UNDER THE SKIN THAT SHOULD BE GROWING IN SOON! (caps fully intentional - YES, I was that excited*!)
> 
> ** *He seems less gassy*, and I was able to gently massage his crop tonight before the evening feeding and the air that was in ther all kinda came out at once. He had a nice full crop after his feed with no air, so if air is present in the morning, I'll know it's because something is fermenting in his crop or some other internal cause. (I hope this is sound pigeon feeding logic - correct me if it's not.
> 
> ...


* It's so much fun to watch the different phases of them growing up!  

**Glad to hear Peeps is improving.  

*** As long as the two of you are happy with a particular feeding method, that's what counts.  

You're doing a wonderful job of caring for this sweet baby.
Thanks for the continued updates.

Cindy


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

YIPPPEEEE!!

Terrific update! We are all wishing the best for Peeps. You are doing a wonderful job! I know Phil is REALLY pleased too. He worries about these wonderful birds, so I know that your news will make his day!!

We are all looking forward to your updates!

LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES 

Shi


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Quick morning update*

No air in the crop this morning! Yay! 

The crop was the closest to flat that it has ever been in the morning. 

Peeps ate enthusiastically this morning (as usual). There was no air in the crop _before_ the feeding, but there was air in the crop _after_ the feeding today. I think it's pretty safe to assume at this point that he's somehow gulping air during the feeding process. 

I was able to gently massage the crop during the feeding (when it was not too full yet) and most of the air came out. Then I let him top himself off. No air by that point. I deduce that he's gulping the air _*in the beginning of the feeding*_, perhaps because of his enthusiasm. Maybe feeding smaller, more frequent feedings will alleviate this problem...

I'll try to refine our method to see if we can alleviate this problem. I will also give Phil's nipple method another go now that I've had some sleep and am feeling more rested and patient.

Thanks so much for being here, everyone!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad the youngster is doing so well.

Are you using the syringe method? If you are be sure to squeeze any air pockets out before feeding, if that is the case.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

artschoolgirl said:


> No air in the crop this morning! Yay!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Jennifer, 



Glad to hear he is getting over that gas business or 'air' business or both, or whatever it is or was.


When starting with this, if you wish to try useing the Nipple, make sure to trim the flange off of the Nipple, as some of the images show it being...if not triming off even more, according to his Beak length at this time.


You can add small whole Seeds, such as Finch Seed or Canary Seeds, to the K-T...too if you like, or also some Malto Meal, the plain kind...since they like the flavor of it, and really it is just about the same nutritionally as the KT is, anyway...


Just guide his Beak into the Nipple, as you hold it tilted a little toward him from at about his chest level...and when he has it in there, if he pulls out fast, or shakes his head, or starts to eat then stops with his Beak in the thing, it is because the food is not warm enough, or, he does not like the taste, or it is too 'thick'.


Guiding his Beak into it then, if he starts to 'gobble' or drink the food, gently squeeze the Nipple from below, and from the sides, to make a little more room in that axis, for his Beak to open and close, and also, because he will like the 'feel' of something soft slightly pressing from the sides there...where when his Beak is in it, the slight pressure will be at the root of his Beak so to speak.

He will want to swallow, and for this, move the Nipple towards him a little, and then away slightly, and or follow his cadence which you can initiate by doing so.


Formula augmented with say 1/3rd small whole Seeds gives his little Gizzard something to do, and will pass better from the Crop than plain formula tends to do, and encourages him to "eat" rather than in effect 'drink' his food.

'Soupy' is good...and for now, it can be sort of a combination of eating and drinking, in it's way.

Plain tepid Water ( or ACV-Water in his case, ) between meals...offered in the Nipple...also...to keep him well hydrated.


If his Crop is not softly squishy some while after eating, he should be offered a drink...and of course, the first few times, one has to guide the nuzzleing this-way-and-that of little Beak into it, and or even keep the finger tips of one's free hand on the Beak 'root' area sides gently, for him to drink in this fashion of it being offered. After a few times he will just dive into the Nipple whether for Food or Water...and will not need any guidance to speak of to find it.


Best wishes...!


Post some pictures..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*Video of Peeps (a.k.a. P.G. Fluff 'n' Stuff)*

Several of you asked for pics of the baby, but instead (with the help of my ex-husband) I made a video today and uploaded it to Google video for all to see!

I swear, this little guy has doubled his size in the past 24 hours!!! AMAZING!

Enjoy, and thanks for all your help!

Jennifer

PS: I plugged the forum in my video and put the home URL in my video description - I hope that's OK.... )


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## artschoolgirl (May 4, 2007)

*OOOOPS! And the link to the video is........*

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8404110635196534861&hl=en


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

artschoolgirl said:


> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8404110635196534861&hl=en


Wonderful video, Jennifer! Thank you. The sound volume was very low for me but the visual images were terrific! Good job on the video and good job with the little pijjie! Thank you especially for "wiping" up the baby after feeding. Many people forget or ignore doing this and end up with a horribly "encrusted" little one.

Thanks again!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jennifer, 



Paper Towells are too slippery for their Feet to get a grip at this age, for their strength of legs...the legs tend then to go rather sideways straining the joints and muscles.

Tee Shirt material is nice, regular Towells or Handcloths likewise...anything soft and Cotton would likely be fine.


Too, you need to support her without having anything pressing against her Crop.

Pressure on her Crop can make a sort of reflux, or constrict it in addition, so the food comeing in does not go down, and or comes back 'up', and she can choke, gag, or aspirate food and get a bacterial pnuemonia, and die.


If you must restrain her in feedings, try useing an inverted "V" of fingers, from above, and have these at her armpits sort of, so nothing is against her Crop.



If feeding in a more natural manner, there is no need for restraint...as they are self restraining in their manner of eating.


Too, if one make a sort of Nest for them to be in, one does best to feed them 'there' so it affirms for them that that IS their Nest, and they will stay there then untill they fledge with not needing to be kept 'in' anything...the Nest can be on a tabletop or end table top, and the Baby will not go anywhere or need any thing to keep them there...they will stay there by their own Nature.


This can be a smallish Box on it's side, with a towell covered heating pad on the bottom, so one side of the Box is open with the botrtom flap flat, side flaps in just a little...and in it then, some little rumple of soft Cloth in a Cake pan or some shallow non insulating thing, for the laying down place. This whole then may be on a table top with a towell layed down first...and this towell soon will define the front 'Lawn' so to speak.


A sheer cloth may be draped over the front, with a gap at the bottom, for making a sort of private Cave.

Soon, she will gladly come tumbleing out for feed times when called...and, once she has eaten, so long as you leave her sight, she will go back in on her own.

I do not know how you are keeping her...but this is a nice method for them, and is one which allows an excercise of their Nature for staying put in what they construe to be a Nest, with no restraining things needed.


Good going!


Happy little Video...what a sweetie..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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