# New Breeding Plans



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

After much tought I have decided in what direction my breeding progran will be going. Of the 30 breeders I have here only 11 of them will stay. I will be bringing back some birds from* Hillfamilyloft *and a few off from this years young bird racers.

Here is the plan:

My whole family of birds will come from one hen. She is 2004 IF YORK 836 "The First Laidy". Not only has she produce well with whatever cock she has been put with but her young have also produced well for Randy Hill and myself. Some of you have seen Randy posting about my 801 Houben blood. What he was talking about was 801 & 836 blood. 

She is with 2004 IF YORK 830 this year. He is a son of SFL "Duke of Earl". I really like how their young are looking. One of the few birds Walt "*conditionfreak*" has left on his young bird team 19267 is from this pair. There are also two flying here on the east coast of Florida and two will be flown by *g-pigeon. *

For this comming breeding season I will be crossing her young from these two breedings and she will be breeding with two other proven breeding cocks. 

I'll be keeping two other cocks to put with 836 the following year and two proven daughters of York 830. All the rest of my breeders are available for anyone who is interested. PM me if you would like information on the birds I will be selling.

Mark/Ace


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Here is a 2009 picture of the AU 06 LCC 801 Houben and 04 IF YORK 836 Jannsen 
View attachment 20559












This is 04 IF YORK 836 on the nest last year.


View attachment 20560


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

This is a picture of 04 IF YORK 830 modeling one of my pigeon message capsules.


View attachment 20561


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> This is a picture of 04 IF YORK 830 modeling one of my pigeon message capsules.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20561



Hey !!! Where did you get that lovely bird !!!!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> After much tought I have decided in what direction my breeding progran will be going. Of the 30 breeders I have here only 11 of them will stay. I will be bringing back some birds from* Hillfamilyloft *and a few off from this years young bird racers.
> 
> Here is the plan:
> 
> ...


Hey !!! Send that bird back here !!!!


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hey !!! Send that bird back here !!!!


I can't see my way to doing that but if you want some young from them we might be able to work something out.

I have plans to get her together with four other cocks over the next two years if she doesn't stop laying on my. She'll be 10 years old at that time.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My bird Primavera is a grad daughter off the 801x836. She was equal first at 250. She was also my snake casualty. I do have 30 to 40 birds flying with this bloodline this year. I had 836 here on loan and she is a nice bird. Might just throw a few of these in the breast cancer auction this year. This bloodline does well in races and a good choice to breed a family around.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think a lot of people are afraid to make such a bold move as to find your best bird or pair and raise your family around tham. This is a common practice in Belg. and NL. At this point I have narrowed my flock down to three key pairings. All are good and they all win. Eventually I will work it down to one or two. I raised 30 babies for myself this year. I went to the loft yesterday and noticed something. Most are checks. I think I know the direction my flock is going in. 
Keep in mind the 801x836 blood on the ABQ race team can be pulled at the end of the season and put into the "Ace" breeding program. Also there are three from last years breeding program with 836 blood. All have top 10% finishes. One grand and two greats of 836.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Maybe I should update my webpage and give the mates some credit. 
801x836
Ed x Charlotte
"08" family (Kahunna x Cuttie Pie) (Tiger x Big Bertha)
The mates are just as important.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> I can't see my way to doing that but if you want some young from them we might be able to work something out.
> 
> I have plans to get her together with four other cocks over the next two years if she doesn't stop laying on my. She'll be 10 years old at that time.


 I have seen those band numbers pop up before and I had to smile. Here is as Paul Harvey use to say, the rest of the story. First of all........let's clear up a few things. I bred that bird back in the good ole early days of 2004. Maybe on that dang breeding software it defaulted to say Janssen, cause some of those early lines were developed by European fanciers like Joep Koch or Verbree were said to be "Janssen" based, whatever that was suppose to mean, but that was what was printed on the sales catalog of fanciers such as Mike Ganus. By the time those YORK band rings were placed onto those two birds you listed, they were the creation of Smith Family Lofts and were 100% Smiths, although numerous fanciers contributed birds along the family tree. 

Follow me now, in 2004 it was not known that "Duke of Earl" would turn out to be the contributor to the SFL strain as we do today. But, it was starting to show signs in 2004 when a granddaughter made the national ACE list and was Bird of the Year on the club level. That was from a full brother/sister pairing when Duke was paired to Blue Magic. Any hoot, had to make room for some star racers who were joining the breeder loft, and every new one that comes in, means someone has to go. They were shipped to a breeder, who was big into PT at the time, and I think he moved to the lastest strain fad, and thus his loss was your gain. 

Anyway, I am happy for your continued interest in this pair. Hopefully you will have produced a number of good birds from which to carry on the line. And perhaps we should share some notes. A Smith see his thread http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/new-birds-from-sfl-48999.html?highlight=duke+earl is currently breeding from some SFL banded birds, including *Vanilla Ice* the 2010 PT Classic 1st Place Average Speed Champion (from a son of Duke) and also a runner ups in the beauty pagent.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Here is the pedigree I have for 836

View attachment 20572


As you can see her great grandfather on top is "The President" and he is her great great grandfather on the bottom side.

Warren, is there anything more you can tell me about her?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> Here is the pedigree I have for 836
> 
> View attachment 20572
> 
> ...


The bird that Mike Ganus called "The President", was bred by Joep Koch....so why is it called Janssen ? There are other fanciers in there as well, I know why people fall back on a familar name, but the bird in your hand, is far removed from the Janssen Brothers. I confess though, back in 2004, I was as guilty as anyone in using the Janssen name. The breeding software wanted a strain placed on the pedigree, and by gawd, with those kinds of dollars, those birds being acquired needed a strain name !!!


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> The bird that Mike Ganus called "The President", was bred by Joep Koch....so why is it called Janssen ? There are other fanciers in there as well, I know why people fall back on a familar name, but the bird in your hand, is far removed from the Janssen Brothers. I confess though, back in 2004, I was as guilty as anyone in using the Janssen name. The breeding software wanted a strain placed on the pedigree, and by gawd, with those kinds of dollars, those birds being acquired needed a strain name !!!


This is what I look at.

Was "The President" Jannsen based blood?

Was "Triple 05" Jannsen based blood?

Was "969" Jannsen based blood

If so than this bird is bred from Jannsen based birds. Jannsen blood is crossed into almost all present day racers.

If I bring in two Houben's and breed them together the young become *Ace In The Hole* birds but they are still Houben based birds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> This is what I look at.
> 
> Was "The President" Jannsen based blood?
> 
> ...


OK, fair enough. I was simply attempting to assign credit, where credit is due. That would include Lewis Burns, Fred Smeltzer, Mike Ganus, Deb-Ray Torres, and a number of other breeders already mentioned and some unknown to me. (In regards to 836) Today, most racing lofts in the USA have some pigeons which could be said to be Jannsen based. That was not the case in the 1970's or 1980's. I was told that when Mike Ganus showed up in York County back in the 1980's, one could hardly give a "Jannsen" pigeon away, no one really knew much about them. The rest is history, as many great modern day strains have a "Janssen based" bird in the family tree somewhere. (Yep even Ludo) So, with the vast majority of the racing pigeon population having been influenced somewhere in the family tree, the term to me has become a bit meaningless in my mind. 

Oh, and according to Ad, you couldn't bring in two Houben's and breed from them, because they don't exist. 

Ok, maybe not. http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/auction/Ad_Schaerlaeckens1.html he was referring to another strain, but his comments are still valid.


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## umaximus (Nov 12, 2010)

Awesome, birds. Gd luck!


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

umaximus said:


> Awesome, birds. Gd luck!


Thanks,

The good thing is their young not only come out looking good but they fly great to.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I am waiting to hear back from Randy but my figures at this time leaves me with a total of 11 hens and only 7 cocks after I bring back the direct blood from Randy's loft. It does include a few good Top Gun Loft birds that I don't think I'll be able to part with.

Here is a twist for you. One of the cocks I will be keeping to breed with 836 is a rescue bird from last year. He was still very young when I rescued him. I would say he was probably lost while trying to settle him. Even though I found the owner for them when they contacted him he did not come get the bird like he said he would so I went and picked up the bird. Once he gets through molting I will post a pic of him on here. He is a very nice bird by the eye and in the hand.

Twist # 2, This fall I plan to bringing in a cock from another PT member to put with 836 for the first part of the 2012 breeding season. I have been talking with *Thunderbird Racing *about his Crocker.

I will continue to update this thread as the new breeding plan moves forward including young bird race results next year &&&&& we will see.

Mark/Ace


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

Here is a pic of Crocker and his 2011 mate. I'll get a few better pics when he is finished with the moult. He is the check on the left.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

well, lucky me, I have 2 off your newly crowned foundation hen.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Thunderbird Racing said:


> Here is a pic of Crocker and his 2011 mate. I'll get a few better pics when he is finished with the moult. He is the check on the left.


Sweet looking pair !!!


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

she can cook too, she had a decent UR of 3.136%


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

The Golden Breeding Hens
Most of the Janssen fans are familiar with all the Janssen legends, such as "Oude Merckx", "Jonge Merckx", "019", "Velo", "Geeloger", "Scherpe" "Rocket", "Lichte" ... But, very few people know the strength of Janssens lies in the strength of their breeding hens. Among many great Janssen breeding hens, there is a very special hen "Kweekduif van '67", she was first mated to "De Oude Merckx". Together they produced: 


"019" |-"De Oude Merckx"
73-6736019 BC C --| 67-6282031 BC C
|
"Jonge Rocket" |-"Daughter Scherpe" "Sister of 019" |
76-6129297 BC C --| 75-6100335 BC H --| 73-6276348 BC H --|
|
"Schouwmen" "Brother of 019" |
76-6371905 BC C --| 73-6276349 BC C --|
|
|
|-"Kweekduif van '67"
67-6282053 BC H


Mike Ganus' "969" is known as the best breeding son of the "019" in the U.S. but do you know "969" is also bred from a son mated to a grand daughter of "Kweekduif van '67". That makes "969" a half brother to Janssen brother's "Jonge Rocket". 

|"019"
"969" | 73-6736019 BC C
80-6305969 B C --| 
Mike Ganus |
|"Daughter Scherpe"
75-6100335 BC H 

"Kweekduif van '67" was used as mate to all the best Janssen super stars, when mated to "Jonge Merckx `70" they produced B75-6743170, he became the father of Ad Schaerlenken 1985 National Orleans winner. Amazingly Ad won National Orleans again in 1996 with a grand son of the 1985 winner, linebred using the same Breeding Method (It's a story for another time). 

"Kweekduif van '67" when mated to a son of "Jonge Scherpe" produced another super breeding hen "Schoon Blauw `76": 

"Zitter" |-"Blauw Van '73"
76-6371905 BC C --| | Son of Jonge Scherpe
| |
"Lichte Van `81" |"Schoon Blauw `76" |
81-6116683 BC H --| 76-6129245 B H --|
| |
"Witplak" | |
81-6116648 BC C --| |-"Kweekduif van '67"
67-6282053 BC H


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ERIC K said:


> The Golden Breeding Hens
> Most of the Janssen fans are familiar with all the Janssen legends, such as "Oude Merckx", "Jonge Merckx", "019", "Velo", "Geeloger", "Scherpe" "Rocket", "Lichte" ...* But, very few people know the strength of Janssens lies in the strength of their breeding hens. *Among many great Janssen breeding hens, there is a very special hen "Kweekduif van '67", she was first mated to "De Oude Merckx". Together they produced:
> 
> 
> ...


 You know much more about this famous family of pigeons then I do, but I assumed that all the great masters had very good hens, and every great Super Stud had a super great mother. I am thinking the reason why at least in the USA so much attention has been focused on the males is because of the economics of the pigeon merchant. If a Mike Ganus etc. goes and buys a great hen from Europe, how many YB's can he sell a year out of her ? Now if he goes and buys a Cock how many YB's can he sell every year out of him ? A great cock bird can easy produce 20 YB's in a season, but you will soon ruin a hen trying to breed from her year round. 

Without great hens, I don't think any of the great masters would have been sucessful. And I personally think that many great families were built around a base of great hens. But, for reasons listed above, most attention has been focused on the sons of great pigeons.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ERIC K said:


> The Golden Breeding Hens
> Most of the Janssen fans are familiar with all the Janssen legends, such as "Oude Merckx", "Jonge Merckx", "019", "Velo", "Geeloger", "Scherpe" "Rocket", "Lichte" ... But, very few people know the strength of Janssens lies in the strength of their breeding hens. Among many great Janssen breeding hens, there is a very special hen "Kweekduif van '67", she was first mated to "De Oude Merckx". Together they produced:
> 
> 
> ...


Eric K
This is one if not the best hen in my loft. I am trying to get Mark to take a cock off of her. She is full Janssen off four direct Janssen brothers birds Ganus purchased from the brothers. I have followed here back about 10 generations to all the great Janssen birds. Fun to go back. 
http://www.hillfamilyloft.com/resources/Doo+1401.jpg


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Sweet looking pair !!!


Also like the pair. What are they down from? Especially like the cock bird. 
Randy


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Thunderbird Racing said:


> Here is a pic of Crocker and his 2011 mate. I'll get a few better pics when he is finished with the moult. He is the check on the left.




He is sending me the ped for Crocker. Crocker is either a President grandson or greatgrandson. I'll post it on here when I get it.

Crocker has produced some club and combine race winners.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

nice bird hpoe they breed well


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

Crocker is nearly finished with the moult, so I snapped another pic of the little guy.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Thunderbird Racing said:


> Crocker is nearly finished with the moult, so I snapped another pic of the little guy.


Love the long body of this bird ,nice!


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I bred that bird back in the good ole early days of 2004. Maybe on that dang breeding software it defaulted to say Janssen, cause some of those early lines were developed by European fanciers like Joep Koch or Verbree were said to be "Janssen" based, whatever that was suppose to mean, but that was what was printed on the sales catalog of fanciers such as Mike Ganus. By the time those YORK band rings were placed onto those two birds you listed, they were the creation of Smith Family Lofts and were 100% Smiths, although numerous fanciers contributed birds along the family tree.


Warren:

She's a lovely bird. You should be proud.

cbx


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