# General questions about my foster that died



## Fenriswolf (Dec 20, 2012)

Hi all,

I am incapable of writing anything short, so hopefully you make your way through this screed. 

I'm a vet nurse in NZ (vet nurses are like a cross between vet techs and kennel assistants in the US ) and we were recently brought a young pigeon that I decided I would try and rehabilitate. I have successfully rehabilitated pigeons before when I was at the SPCA, using techniques I now know are not ideal.

This pigeon was around 20 days old, absolutely no body fat, with watery/tarry faeces. It was found wandering around a parking building looking lost and weak. I didn't think it had much of a chance but thought I'd try.

First I balled up egg and biscuit and pressed it into his beak - and after a few balls his beak ripped in the corner.  Google explained to me how to use a syringe for them to eat themselves and that worked swimmingly: he ate about 30ml 2-3 times a day. 

His faeces became more normal very quickly but still a little watery. He was NOT gaining weight but he was certainly energetic enough, running to the front of his cage to demand food. He was pecking at seeds and chick crumbles on the ground (not keen on peas and corn), but he appeared to have zero interest in using his wings for anything but balancing as he climbed up to your shoulder.

He could be fussy about his food - HAD to be freshly made, had to be warm. So when he refused to eat more than 5-10mls for two meals I thought he was just being a pain and I'd spend some time making him eat more the next day. That night he seemed not quite right, wanting to eat then not eating, seemingly falling asleep on the spot. His crop still felt like it had a little food in it, which didn't seem right, and he acted like he wanted to regurgitate a couple of times.

Well, this morning, he was very weak. Barely had the energy to peep for food or shake his wings, would try and eat then just sit and let the food run out of his mouth. Sitting with his wings splayed, he didn't seem to be swallowing at all. Wouldn't drink.

So I made a crop tube and fed him 20ml. It went smoothly and his crop filled up nicely, so I am confident he didn't aspirate. Nonetheless a few minutes later he brought up some of the food and started gaping, then died.

Any ideas? Should I have been able to see weight gain over a 2 week period of regular feeds? He could have aspirated a little during syringe feedings (I started using a 60ml and he'd get right in there), could it have been pneumonia? Do you think he was sick the whole time?

I have tried Googling these things but talking to people can be very helpful. Thank you in advance.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Could be sour crop or he got food on the airways.
In the future use defrosted peas as a hand feeding method. I could have been something else. Best is to ask for help at the first sign of illness.

I am sorry you lost him.


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## Fenriswolf (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks. I am very sad. 

I should mention, I was feeding him using this method: syringe and balloon, and moved on to a mix of soaked chick crumbles, brown bread and dried egg. While it does have some risk of aspiration I would be keen to use this method again as it closely mimics nature and he ate a LOT using it, and it seems like a more complete diet than just peas.

None of the vets had any opinion on his state when he came in, pretty much it was just up to me to see if I could fatten him up. He was not showing signs of infection or I would have got him antibiotics. Also, he started acting flat at 11pm last night. Retrospectively I would have crop fed him at that point but he'd eaten enough that I thought he'd be OK. I think I might invest in crop needles for the future. *sigh*


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## Fenriswolf (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh god, he may well have had sour crop. Damnit, I wish I worked with vets that were into birds.  I doubt that was the sole cause of his demise but it wouldn't surprise me if he came to be with it, as even when "empty" his crop felt a little squishy in the bottom.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He may have aspirated when he vomited. But he was probably sick. You could have had his droppings checked for bacteria. Doesn't have to be a bird vet to do that. Then you would have known if he had something that needed treatment. Also, you only feed again after the crop empties. Never put new food in with old food that hasn't passed through. That can cause crop problems. Did you check his throat for any signs of canker? When you fed the egg and biscuit, the pieces should be the size of a pea. Was he kept warm? Wish you had come in here when you first got him. Sorry you lost him.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

my Grandmother could not eat at her last days here on earth.. IMO, it sounds like he could not support food anylonger and needed to pass as he had a disease. I think you did a great job of it. sorry it did not turn out how you wanted it to.


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## Fenriswolf (Dec 20, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> He may have aspirated when he vomited. But he was probably sick. You could have had his droppings checked for bacteria. Doesn't have to be a bird vet to do that. Then you would have known if he had something that needed treatment. Also, you only feed again after the crop empties. Never put new food in with old food that hasn't passed through. That can cause crop problems. Did you check his throat for any signs of cancer? When you fed the egg and biscuit, the pieces should be the size of a pea. Was he kept warm? Wish you had come in here when you first got him. Sorry you lost him.


I asked the vets I worked with, they didn't have any ideas. We don't routinely do faecal panels, and they cost about $200 to send to the lab - I may have been able to do a smear and stain it and look under our microscope but when I say I don't work with bird vets, I mean I have never seen anyone do such a thing, and it's not been suggested to me. I'll ask if that's an option when I'm next at work. I pointed out that his crop felt odd to me and showed the faeces to two vets, and their response was pretty much a shrug.

As in the previous post, I used a method where he fed himself from food in a thick soup-like consistancy, which is recommended from various sites and seemed to work extremely well. I was making sure he emptied out regularly (though I didn't realise it was as important as it is), but he never seemed completely "deflated".

I appreciate suggestions such as looking for cancer and doing smears of his faeces, but you seem to be missing the point that for weeks he was thriving. Of course I kept him warm, if I hadn't he wouldn't have lasted long. I may not be very experienced with birds but I have been nursing for 5 years, I know about animal care. What I don't know is issues specific to pigeons and similar birds.

Edited to add: I appreciate all responses, thanks guys!


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## Fenriswolf (Dec 20, 2012)

Obviously more accurately he *appeared* to be thriving. But here's a video of him begging for food while it was soaking, a couple of days before he died. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA3G3PzfOuo&feature=youtu.be


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Fenriswolf said:


> Obviously more accurately he *appeared* to be thriving. But here's a video of him begging for food while it was soaking, a couple of days before he died.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA3G3PzfOuo&feature=youtu.be


From watching the video, he looked pretty normal. My guess is that he aspirated. I don't like the Balloon Method because you have to push on the plunger while their feeding, which can easily cause them to aspirate if you accidentally push too hard.....which is easy to do with them hopping around.
In the future, if you get anymore babies, this is my method for feeding, I've even raised babies hatched from 1 day with this method. It's very safe and as close to mom as you can get. You just tilt the bottle, and they take as much as they need without you forcing it into their mouth.








As for checking a fecal sample. If you have a lab that you use at your clinic, you can send it out for a 'culture & sensitivity'. I work at a vet clinic and get it done at 'cost', about $23.00. For the public it runs about $80.00.


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## Fenriswolf (Dec 20, 2012)

Ahh, awesome. So basically the same but without pushing the food onto them with the plunger? I actually started pretty much doing that over time, tipping it forward so he had constant access to the food. Thanks; that's good to know.

Re: culture and sensitivity, that is indeed around $200 here in good old NZ. I'd have to look into costs as staff but that's the price for clients. Our vet from South Africa is pretty shocked at our lab prices. :/


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Fenriswolf said:


> Ahh, awesome. So basically the same but without pushing the food onto them with the plunger? I actually started pretty much doing that over time, tipping it forward so he had constant access to the food. Thanks; that's good to know.
> 
> Re: culture and sensitivity, that is indeed around $200 here in good old NZ. I'd have to look into costs as staff but that's the price for clients. Our vet from South Africa is pretty shocked at our lab prices. :/


For some unknown reason, all the pictures with description of this feeding method are 'unavailable' on PT. Here is the description that goes with the picture.......the nipple is cut half way down.....

"I use a small baby bottle and cut the tip off the nipple half way down (just enough to slide their beak into). Then cut the finger off a rubber glove and slide it over the nipple. Put a cross slit at the top of the glove (kind of surrounds their beak to help with the mess)
Your going to need to cut a SMALL hole in the nipple - just enough for baby to slip his beak into. I make it a little larger as they get bigger.
"Nuzzle" his beak gently with your fingers first to teach him how to eat.
Make sure formula (Exact hand feeding formula) is warm - NOT TOO HOT (warm on the "wrist test") Feeding small amounts at 1st."
__________________


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's canker, not cancer (spelled it wrong, sorry). Very common, and with the lack of feathering all the way down his throat, that's what it looked like. Are there other vets around? Most vets can check droppings, and it doesn't cost much, as you don't really need to do a culture and sensitivity in order to know what bacteria he is carrying. And it could aspirate if you tube feed too fast and the food comes back up, or give more than the crop can hold. Could be so many things. You had said that he started gaping after he vomited. They can aspirate when they vomit.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Quick question...did you make the formula fresh each time?
I am suspicious that the baby had canker. I reason I think that is because of the lack of feathers on the front of the neck. Vets here can identify the parasite from a throat swab and having a look under the microscope. It's easily treated.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm so sorry you lost this sweet little guy  I also suspect canker, from all you said. Thank you for caring about this bird.


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## BHenderson (Sep 8, 2011)

I have never had to look after an abandoned baby that young and would love the chance to get that close to a pigeon. He looked like a great playmate. I lost a number of sick birds because I did not have the medicines at the beginning or the ability to work out when they were needed. Unfortunately for the pigeons in London there is an endless supply of sick and wounded pigeons that need help, so I was able to learn slowly. And of course I get a lot of help from people on this site.
I also have a problem finding a vet, none of the vets round my way are interested in treating pigeons, they consider them too numerous. I look at it from the point of view of the individual suffering.

I would really love the chance to bring up a baby pigeon. I once had to raise a baby crow which was a lot of fun, but she escaped when she got older. I like to think she went on to have a good life, she was strong. I am sorry you lost your little friend.


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