# Help me save him.



## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi, 

This is an update to an old thread + a emergency request to the new one. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/need-help-urgent-pigeon-eyes-watery-and-white-pus-51970.html
Veer just did not make one night. I did not share this news earlier, its more than a week now, as I didn't feel like sharing it with the forum and making everyone sad. 

However, now I have to, because zoro (my pet bird, which now has started spending some of the nights outside, as part of my soft release program) because of my negligence got out on a day (4 days back) when the weather could have gone bad. And it did. Just after about an hour he got out it started raining badly. It was zoro's first rain and it was severe. He just didn't knew what to do, I saw him sitting out of my reach and in rain for more than 20 min. Then he flew somewhere and took shelter probably. Since the next day when he came back he his poops had been inconsistent. Sometimes well formed and perfectly okay, sometimes lot of white part which is yellow. sometimes no solid stuff just the white one, sometimes slimy. But 2 days back he was puffed up and looked ill but not much. Yesterday it got severe. by severe I mean it is now somewhat similar to what Veer had. his eyelids are swollen. None to very less mucus coming out of nose but not as much as Veer had. Puffed up all the time. Feeding has gone down, but he had eaten a little seeds this morning. I think the water intake has increased. I saw him gulping more than what he used to. I think there is loss of weight. He has always been a lazy one even when he was healthy, but now it is like he just sits there. Not alert. Keeps his eyes closed even on loud noises (maybe because of eyelid swelling). So, I hope you understand why I have to give Veer's sad news, because it is all happening to zoro now. It is like all the same. 

I have lurked the internet trying to understand what happened to Veer. And according to this site http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php there are atleast 5 diseases that I think he might had simultaneously. The most probable I think is the Young bird sickness as he was young. Also Zoro is young too ( born around 8th Feb 2011), I fear the worse. I was hoping to release him completely by the end of the next month because I will be leaving the town and wont be able to move him with me. I just hope that I can release him alive. 

Any help is much appreciated. I am around pigeons for 4 months now, but I promise you I will listen like a newbie, please suggest anything that comes to your mind. I think I have provided some information that might help in diagnosis, but ask me questions and I will provide more info. I once saw a thread that had questions that should be answered for performing diagnostics, I can't locate it. If someone can give me link to that, I will follow the checklist there and provide all information. I want to save Zoro.


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

The things that scared me most is that I saw his diarrhea, and after sometime saw him vomiting live. 

Similar to what was suggested for Veer, I gave Zoro the same medicine yesterday night and this morning 6 drops of Co-trimoxazole Oral Suspension IP (Each 5 ml contains 40mg Trimethoprim IP & Sulphamethoxazole IP 200mg). I have not given him this yet for the night. I think this medicine might not work as it did not for Veer. 

One of his most recent poop which is the most watery until now is attached.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Have you started Zoro on the same medication and dosing that was suggested in the previous thread?

Pidgey


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Think we both updated at the same time Pidgey, Please check 2nd post for the dosage.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sorry, posted before seeing your second post. Give the medication anyhow for the moment. Some antibiotics take a little while to start working--it IS possible to simply be too late to do any good. That said, you might also want to acquire a Tetracycline. We'd prefer Doxycycline but there's also Minocycline, Oxytetracycline, Tetracycline and a few others. Some go by names like "Terramycin". Anyhow, check around for those. Try to get Metronidazole, too.

Pidgey


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Here just now he pooped again, not a drop of water & no diahrea, solid green thing with yellowish green urates. I have kept a piece of white paper to show the color difference.

I understand Pidgey, I will give him now his dosage. Even in my last case Dobato/Karyn suggested me to get Terracyline, I couldn't find it. (might be I didn't look hard enough, I will surely do this time.) Thanks for your help.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Concur with what Pidgey has said and layed, out with mentioning it may even be worthwhile using the tetracycline and the Trimethoprim/Sulfa together, as well as doing once a day dosing with Metronidazole, by doing this there will not be much that we are not trying to get at. Please substitute Zoro's water with hydration fluids for the time being, to make your own hydration fluid:

to 1 liter of water, add 2 1/4 level tablespoons of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon baking soda (bicarbonate of soda), stir well.

Try hard for the Metronidazole as well. 

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Okay, just now tried giving him the syrup I have. gently opened his beak put 2-3 drops, he moved violently, I let him go off. He does his scary violent shaking thing and vomits hell lot of seeds again. I am too scared to give him anything again.

To give him dosage I open his beak wide with left hand, take the spoon which has 6 drops and slowly one drop at a time, while holding his beak in horizontal position. Is this an okay way to give the dosage?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Luffy said:


> Okay, just now tried giving him the syrup I have. gently opened his beak put 2-3 drops, he moved violently, I let him go off. He does his scary violent shaking thing and vomits hell lot of seeds again. I am too scared to give him anything again.
> 
> To give him dosage I open his beak wide with left hand, take the spoon which has 6 drops and slowly one drop at a time, while holding his beak in horizontal position. Is this an okay way to give the dosage?


Yes, one drop at a time, slowly, is fine.

Please take all food out of Zoro's cage, leave him only hydration fluid, I also want you to add 1/2 teaspoon of vinegar to the hydration fluid to shift the pH level down, this may help with crop issues. Please sek out the other meds.


Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

I have removed, everything except the hydration fluid. After the last try 10 min back, I try giving him 2 more drops. First he shakes his beak throws out the syrup and then another vomit comes out, grains with little slimy grey fluid with a pinkish touch(probably from the pink syrup in his beak). I think I should stop giving him the syrup. Also he is not drinking the fluid as of now, I even tried putting his beak in there. I will give him an hour to drink on his own. After that I will try the medicine again. 



Thx for the help and keep the suggestions coming.


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Filled the hydration fluid in the regular water container and kept it inside his resting place, he dipped his beak willingly but instantly took it out shook his head as if saying "No I don't like it" turned and move away. 

His crop is super empty now. I can feel the left and right muscles and the gap between them. In the last 4 hours, I feel suddenly all things are going from bad to worse.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Have you got any plain non-fat greek yogurt with the cultures in it?


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Not now, I will be able to get it only after 7 hours when the shops open in morning. Also, we don't have yogurt but mostly use curd in India. I think curd means plain yogurt.

Also, I noticed that you are suggesting things which are acidic in nature. I am just wondering and could be a silly thing, I have got lemons (citric acid), will that be helpful?


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

luffy,first of all dont worry......you can easily manage it .i have gone through similar situations and by gods grace everything was fine.......

You basically need 3 medicines

1.sulmet (for coccidio) - 8 ml in 2 litres of drinking water for 3 days

2.Enrofloxacin(enrocin )(1ml = 200mg) - give 1 drop for 7 days 

3.Metronidazole (Flagyl) , 50 - 100 mg/bird daily for 5 days.ie,1/4th of a 200 mg tablet for 5 days.

if u give these medicines and if gods blessings are there .......then zorro will be fine.
all the 3 medicines are available in india


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

u have vinegar ?then add 10 ml to 2 litres of water .......until u get the medicines


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Luffy, remake the hydration fluid, this time do not add any vinegar to it, the vinegar will make it slightly tart/acidic tasting, and Zoro may not be used to this, so is rejecting it and it's more important we keep him hydrated than worrying about shifting the crop's pH at this moment. He should readily accept the hydration fluid (it is a generic Pedialyte recipe), making it tepid (just a touch warm) may help with his acceptance.

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi Karyn, 

Sorry I did not mention earlier, as I did not have vinegar I did not add it. I also made the water touch warm when I gave it to zoro. The solution has sugar, salt, baking soda and water. 

While typing this I again warmed up the water and tried giving him. He wont take. I took some Til (seesame) seeds becuase they are the smallest one and tried giving him. He pecked at them very eagerly. I dont want to give him more without your permission, However I will give it if you don't reply in another 15 min. I have to go to sleep its already 1:30 AM. I don't want him to stay hungry. Also, I have some barley seeds, I can try giving him. He won't eat bread I tried that too. I will assume that he will drink hydration fluid later because his nesting place is dimly lit and he can see it.

He stays very puffed up, I wanted to take a picture but as soon as I approach he stops puffing up. 

Hi Boney, 

Thanks for your comforting words, I will look for those medicines tomorrow.


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Also, one more thing I was inspecting the muscle around the keel bone, because I felt the weight loss earlier. the skin of that area is little purple, I don't know if it is always like that as I never noticed it before. I am comparing the purple color with the red one around his vent.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Luffy, I know it seems strange not to feed them, but when they are regurgitating their food (vomiting) it's best to stop all food completely, even the smallest food items, such as sesame seeds, until we can get a better idea just how well the crop will empty fluids alone, so no food all for the time being, fluids only.

Normally, at this point we would tube in (use a crop feeing tube) some fluids with some of the meds mentioned in it and see how well this moved through him. Since you will not be able to tube fluids, please continue to try dipping his beak into the fluids to get him to drink, as this would be good if he starts to drink (also monitor the level of his water dish to see if the level is going down from him drinking and you're not see this), also try again to give the Trimethoprim/Sulfa. 

If he will not drink, you can slowly dribble fluids to the side of his beak, head slightly tilted down, to make sure he stays hydrated. So you know, roughly 20 drops will equal 1mL so you would want him to drink about 100 drops at a time (5mL), this can take a little while, but will be helpful to him, take your time and go slowly (he will need about 30mL of fluids a day). After he has some fluids, please check his crop in an hour to see if the fluids have moved from his crop. Please let us know if the brings up again and how the search for the additional meds go.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi,

Sorry, If I did not explain it clearly. Luffy is not vomiting because he is sick or something but because I was probably feeding him wrong. The only two vomits he did were when I was giving him the syrup. Probably the syrup went in the wind pipe or something. And he wanted to get that syrup out, so he vomited. I will never know, however now I am feeding him the syrup, he revolts a little but it is okay.

So, according to my intuition & I hope I did not did something wrong, I have been feeding him seesame and very little barley. He is still on hydration fluid (Sugar, salt, baking soda & non fruit vinegar). Once I gave him a few drops of curd too. Still with the old dosage of six drops of Co-trimoxazole. His poops are still watery i.e., nice solid dark green thing (not diarrhoea) in a puddle of water and yellow urates. Eyes are still watery, If not cleaned up for a while sometimes the water has pus like thick white substance. I can definitely feel the weight loss. Has become very lazy or lifeless. If I take him out of his nesting place, he will just sit there. If I touch or try to get his attention, he runs back to his nest and sleeps there. Basically his condition is almost the same as it was when I reported him here the first time. 

After looking for around 8 shops here, I have found only two of the meds. These meds are real cheap, problem is I can't locate them. Anyhow the two of them are -
1. CIPLOX Eye ointment - Cyprofloxacin Hydrohloride IP equivalent to ciprofloxacin IP 0.3% w/w Benzalkonium Chlorid IP 0.01% w/w
2. Metrogyl 200 - Metronidazole IP 200mg 

Please suggest the dosage and application method based on the strength and the Zoro's condition as explained above. 

Sorry for this delay but I have been caught up in a few things.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, pick up both of these medicines without delay, when can you get them?

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

I have them with me.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The Metrogyl 200 are pills, right?

Do you know how much Zoro weighs?

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Yes Karyn, they are 200. No, I don't know how much he weighs. My guess would be between 50 to 150 grams. He was born in Feb, if that helps with the dosage decision.

Thanks for you fast replies.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Can you post up a photo of Zorro, dosing is weight dependent, we can be off by a bit, but the closer the better. Is Zorro a Dove or a feral pigeon?

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

He is a feral pigeon, we have too many of them in our cities in India. I have measured him up he is like 9 inches long from beak to tail feather. 

Following Pictures were taken when you asked, so are most recent.

Notice the eye and puffing, He sometimes shakes his wing too, as if he is shivering.









Around 9 inches.









He is full size pic. No, I am not teaching him to poop on cars


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the photos, they were helpful. I want you to cut one of the Metrogyl 200 tablets into 4 even pieces (50mg each) and "pop" one piece, as a loading dose, like in the video clip (thanks Bob (Quazar) for posting how to do direct links to YT):






Then I want you wash your hands well and squeeze a little bit of the Ciplox Eye Ointment onto a clean surface, like the bottom of a clean drinking glass, then use you baby finger (smallest finger) to apply a little of the ointment to the eyes, twice a day (every 12 hours). Do not touch the tube itself to the eye, to avoid contamination.

Do you think you can locate another medicine called Doxycycline or any Tetracycline?

We will lower the Metronidazole for his other dosings, is there is any way you could borrow a scale and get him weighed, it would be helpful.

Make sure he stays well hydrated and hand feed small pieces of soft, fresh bread, "popping" them like in the video clip above.

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks Karyn.
I will get on to that. One question, where exactly the ointment be applied? over the eyelids, or after opening them directly to the eye.

I did check for Tetracycline, the last time I went shopping. Let me check for Doxycycline.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Luffy said:


> Thanks Karyn.
> I will get on to that. One question, where exactly the ointment be applied? over the eyelids, or after opening them directly to the eye.
> 
> I did check for Tetracycline, the last time I went shopping. Let me check for Doxycycline.


You can also ask for Minocycline, to give you two choices. Yes, in and around the eye, you don't have to worry too much about in, as his body heat will melt the ointment and some will get right in the eye.

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Actually Pidgey in his post earlier gave me these names Tetracycline, Minoycline, Oxytetracycline and Doxycycline. While noting it down on my shopping list I somehow missed Doxycycline. So, I have chekced those 3 except Doxy, I need to check on Doxycycline. Thanks for reminding about Doxy.

I have put the ointment and given the tablet. I have not given the sulpha yet. Can all these 3 be given together? Also, I am afraid Zoro might rub the ointment off by rubbing his neck over his back the way he does now for the water in his eyes.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

You will not be able to control him rubbing some off, but enough will stay and get in to work. Please widen your field of looking for these meds, these are all older (meaning the have been around a long time) meds and someone, somewhere, should have some, as they are still first choice drugs in a number of infections, I think it is important, from the look of Zoro, and symptoms, to get some, as I think it needs a tetracycline as well. Yes, you can give the Metronidazole at the same time as the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, but I usually give it a few hours away, meaning if I give the TMS at 8am, I will give the Metronidazole at 10/11am, we will be doing once a day dosing with the Metronidazole, so Zoro's next dose will be in about 22 hours. Don't forget a weight for him.

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi, 

One good news is that the eyes are looking almost awesome. Hopefully with one/two more ointment applications it will be totally fixed. Thanks.

Yesterday I fed sulpha to him in his nesting area itself and did not take him out to the feeding area. After feeding I did not stand there to inspect and left. This morning when I was looking in the nest area I found that he had vomited, not sure if it was because of meds like the times earlier OR if it was because of he is sick. 

Also, his poops are stil the same (solid green noodle in the middle, lots of yellow water in urine with yellow urates). His crop was totally empty so as soon as I took him out I gave him the hydration solution, which he drank profusely. After that he started pecking at the seeds dropped around in feeding area. I stopped him from doing that and have kept in nesting area. Also, As I don't know when he vomited, either just after I fed sulpha or during the night, I am not sure if the meds absorption happened or not. It is possibe that the med would have come out with vomit. The dried vomit have no signs of the pill but obviously it would have dissolved. I will get some fresh bread and feed that to him OR do you want me to stop feeding because we don't know the reason of vomit?

I know you have told me that we give bread because it is easy to digest for sick birds, I have got some wheat flour with me, Can I give him balls made out of flour, water and maybe add a little sugar/honey and salt? Or does it need to be cooked flour bread?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Luffy, I may not be around much in the morning, so I will cover a few things now. I reason am suggesting hand feeding the fresh bread, rather than seeds right now, is that when fresh bread becomes wet it will almost immediately break down, so there will be little effort required by Zoro's digestive system to digest this "mush" and get some calories and, while not ideal nourishment, nourishment, none the less. If whatever is infecting him is compromising the functioning of his GI tract, this will help and perhaps stop the regurgitation of seeds that he may not be able to handle right now. No, you can not mix water and flour and feed this, these will make almost glue or cement like balls that may really clog things up. You want yeast risen bread, like for sandwiches. Stop feeding him seeds at all right now, as he continues to throw them back up, you need to hand feed him soft, fresh bread, as I suggested.

With the Metronidazole, from the looks of Zoro, I am guessing he weighs in at around 225 grams (would be really nice if you could get a weight on him, like I asked). We need to make a suspension from the pills so you can dose him. Crush up three of the pills into a fine powder, add 10mL of honey (two cooking teaspoons full, this will be 5mL x 2) stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 6% suspension (60mg/mL) to dose with. I changes my mind about once a day dosing and we will do twice a day dosing, this way is he does regurgitate, we stand a better chance of keeping some of the medicine down him if he is getting it twice a day.

You will stir the Metronidazole suspension well, then draw 0.20cc (12mg, this is about 4 drops) and give Zoro this every 12 hours as mentioned.

Again, please see what you can do about a weight and I want you to reduce the Trimethoprim/Sulfa dose down to 0.20cc (9.6mg, 4 drops, twice a day) as this would be more appropriate for the weight I think he is at. How are you making out with finding the tetracycline?

Glad the eyes seem a bit better,


Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We probably ought to try treating him for worms. I'd probably try looking for some Levamisole and, if you find it and get it, then we can give you dosing information.

Pidgey


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Okay, sorry I was out and did not reply soon. I have taken zoro to a shop near by where they had weighing scale. After a few crazy looks to me by a few shoppers, an old woman and shopkeeper, I was able to take his weight , it is 170 grams.

Thanks for the bread clarification. That makes sense and is a perfect example of how intuition might get wrong. 

He is still on fluid and drinking a lot as he is hungry. I have got the bread too and will make the small pieces.


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Also to keep it mushy I am just breaking the bread into small lentil size crumbs and not rolling them into balls as that may again form the cement like substance. I am then putting these in his mouth. How many pieces do you think would be sufficient for his diet? I have already put 8 and planning to do with 15


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Pidgey said:


> We probably ought to try treating him for worms. I'd probably try looking for some Levamisole and, if you find it and get it, then we can give you dosing information.
> 
> Pidgey


Yes Pidgey, I think worms is also a possibility because as I said before he fell sick he was on a soft release program and kept coming and going. Coming mostly for feed. I haven't got any grit so probably(or probably not) he was eating that outside. So there is a good chance of worm infestation. I will put Levamisole on my shopping list, however could you suggest some alternatives, just in case I don't find it.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

alternative is ivermectin two drops,then repeat after 12 days


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

boneyrajan.k said:


> alternative is ivermectin two drops,then repeat after 12 days


At this weight, 170g, 2 drops is going to be too much and, 1 drop might even be too much in this weakened state and low weight, maybe 1/2 drop (0.025cc) and this would still be in therapeutic range for this medicine.

Luffy, thanks for getting a weight, this is really helpful, I knew he was light looking, but I was hoping not this light. Now the we have a real weight for Zoro, we need to again adjust his dosing down, for the Metronidazole you need to give him 0.15cc (9mg, 3 drops) twice a day and for the Trimethoprim/Sulfa you need to give him 0.15cc (7.5mg, 3 drops) twice a day. Also, as another choice, try and see if you can find a de-wormer called Pyrantel Pamoate, this may be the gentlest de-wormer on pigeons.

I would give him 20 -30 small pieces, 4-5 times a day, and let him have free access to the hydration fluids. Tetracycline?


Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Yes, I agree actually the feathers give up a wrong sense of weight. But I could feel Zoro was 150g by taking him in hand. Probably I would have been able to save Veer if I had taken his weight . He was bigger than zoro but I am sure he was around 170 grams too. 

I just came home from busy day at office. I am feeding him and soon will run out to med shops. I logged in to give this update. His poops have been lot of water because he drank too much in the morning. His crop is not fully empty, I fed him 7 hours back and there are still mushy thing in the crop. He probably did not drink water during the day, but I can't be sure. He just drank normal amount of water just now. The new thing that I noticed just now was that he was walking with his tail up, maybe it was just a one time thing and its nothing but I wanted to tell you that. The tail feathers were not just up they were like raised up. (it happened only once, however, Is it some other symptom?).



Off to check for
1. Tetracycline (suspension /tablets) Doxy/Mino/Oxytetra cyclines too
2) Pyrantel pomoate / ivermectin / Levamisole
3) Sulmet
4) Enrofloxacin (enrocin)


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

u need to go to a veterinary medical shop.....incase,if u dint know


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Okay Mission report

*1) Tetracycline (suspension /tablets)* - Did not find this one, but the chemist suggested that RESTECLINE is same as Tetracycline. So, I got that. It is a capsule of 250mg. Also, as I was able to find Doxycycline I bought it in case if you don't agree with Restecline. Doxycycline is 100mg. Only if I had put Doxycycline on my list last time, stupid me 
*2) Pyrantel pomoate / ivermectin / Levamisole *- Thanks Dr. Boney for the Indian version. I was able to find only Ivermectin here. I got the smallest tablets of 3mg.
*3) Sulmet* - No success.
*4) Enrofloxacin (enrocin)* - No Success

Edit: the chemist was right I did a google search and it did turn up http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/customer/product.php?productid=542 It's not the same manufacturer and the same prodct but still the name counts? . If only other chemists were as knowledgeable as him


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

Luffy,did u got to a veterinary medical shop ?if u are not getting sulmet,just ask for any anti-coccidio drugs given for poultry and ask for enrocin injection(15 ml) bottle


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

1) Tetracycline (suspension /tablets) - Did not find this one, but the chemist suggested that RESTECLINE is same as Tetracycline. So, I got that. It is a capsule of 250mg. Also, as I was able to find Doxycycline I bought it in case if you don't agree with Restecline. Doxycycline is 100mg. Only if I had put Doxycycline on my list last time, stupid me

*The 100mg size is a pretty standard doing size for Doxycycline. I want you to open two capsules into a very small container, to this add 5mL of honey, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 4% suspension to dose with, 40mg/mL. We will use once a day dosing at 50mg/kg, so the means at 170g, Zoro will need to get 8.5mg every 24h. If you use a 1cc and draw up 0.21cc, this will be 8.4mg, and close enough for what he needs. I want you do again reduce the dose of the Trimethoprim/Sulfa down, since we will be using both Doxycycline and Trimethoprim/Sulfa at the same time, down to 0.10cc (4.8mg) twice a day. Stir very well each use, and keep in the refrigerator*

2) Pyrantel Pamoate / Ivermectin / Levamisole - Thanks Dr. Boney for the Indian version. I was able to find only Ivermectin here. I got the smallest tablets of 3mg.

*Yes, I thought this is what you may come up with, as I was helping another member a while ago, Nazmul, he's from India as well, and this what he found for Ivermectin. You can not use these pills for Zoro. The reason is that the dose required to treat Zoro would be 0.0535mg - 0.17mg. Because of a number of factors, the chief being that Ivermectin is insoluble in water, we can not make a safe suspension by crushing up the pill and it would be unsafe, IMO, trying to figure out how much 0.0535 - .17mg is of a 3mg pill is, plus, the .17mg is high end dosing and in his condition, I think the minimum therapeutic dose of Ivermectin should be used. Keep looking for Levamisole or Pyrantel.*

3) Sulmet - No success.

*Don't worry, this is a sulfa med and Zoro is already on a sulfa based antibiotic, Trimethoprim/Sulfa.*

4) Enrofloxacin (enrocin) - No Success

*Don't worry right now, let's see how he responds to the addition of Doxycycline*

Karyn


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Ok I have kept zoro on your suggested dosage from the time you told me. 

Update: Don't see any improvement  He drinks a lot of hydration fluid, ( He doesn't go to fluid, I take that near him, but he gulps a lot). Due to that his poops are all water. Sometimes there is no solid at all but only water, other times there is little solid. I am not sure if the bread is also moving on. As I have never waited for the crop to empty, also his crop is always super cushiony because of the water in there. I am wondering if I should reduce feeding him water? Wait till the crop empties before feeding him water/bread food? Any suggestions? I know that the hydration fluid is important but I think it is going in excess and making the poops watery. May be he is cured but due to high water intake the poops are watery. I dont know I am just confused.

Minor Issue: Also, I am wondering after zoro does recover from all this he might get very lazy, He might not even know that he has to go near the water bowl to drink water. Mostly because now when I take the water bowl near him, he will stand there and start touching his beak on the ground like when they do to feel the water. He is getting super spoiled, because I take the water near him, he might even get behaviour conditioned that when he sees water and when he puts his beak down water comes near him. Am I doing something wrong?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did you ever give him the wormer?

Pidgey


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

No, As Dobato said the dosage of which can be very high for him according to his weight.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That tablet of Ivermectin was a 3 milligram, wasn't it? And I show a 0.2 milligram per kilogram of pigeon as a dosage so it would be about 1/100th of that pill. Yeah, I guess that would be pretty hard to do, depending on how easily the pill turned into powder (some are hard, some aren't). Do you want to try powderizing the pill and then mixing it in some syrup?

Pidgey


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Hey Pidgey, I didn't answer as I thought the question was for Karyn. If you are asking me I can try anything. I am very desperate. 

His eyes are now fully recovered and I have even stopped the ointment, however, his poops are just water now. Sometimes it is pure (lol, not drinkable thought) clean water, sometimes it is green and yellow and now there are no solids. If occasionally solids come out they are like a small grain of sand. I am giving him like 1.5 to 2 slice of bread in a day and lots & lots of hydration fluid. He drinks so much fluid that his crop hangs just like a pouter's crop. I am just glad that he is still alive.

After these few days of him being in intensive care by me, he has forgotten most of the basic things or is unable to do most of the basic things. Yesterday he tried to fly a bit and kept over shooting from the landing target or landing before reaching the target. For checking if he was hungry I took a few grains in my hand and kept my hand in front of him. He started beating around the bush, I mean rather than directly eating the grain he kept hitting my hand here and there and after a great difficulty was able to eat one grain. I stopped as I have to give him bread and not grains. I used this method because he doesn't like eating bread and won't peck at it. I understand that this two things can be taken as a symptoms of balance disorders and PMV but I don't think it is that.

His poop









This is how he stays all day.









& he has grown thin specially around the keel bone. This pic is from when he is puffed up only a little


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

Also, I took all the symptoms from this site http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php and tried to match symptoms that I thought are showing up.

Y=Yes/D=Don't know/C=Cured as far as I know

Y	Condition, general, impaired 
C	Conjunctivitis, bilateral 
C	Conjunctivitis, unilateral 
C	Consumption, complete 
Y	Crop puffy 
D	Crop, sour, water-filled 
Y	Debility 
Y	Diarrhoea, greenish 
Y	Diarrhoea, malodorous 
Y	Diarrhoea, muco-aqueous 
D	Disorder, systemic 
D	Down moulting, cessation 
Y	Droppings, formed but in puddles 
Y	Droppings, mucoid in yellow-green puddles 
Y	Droppings, soft 
Y	Droppings, sourish-smelling 
Y	Droppings, wet 
D	Elbow joint, thickening 
Y	Emaciation, acute (going light) 
P	Enteritis, acute 
C	Eye discharge, watery 
C	Eyelid, swollen 
D	Feather formation, inadequate 
D	Feed intake, reduced 
Y	Fly, reluctance 
D	Joint, swollen 
D	Lacrimal sac, bulging of the 
Y	Listlessness 
D	Movements, twisting 
C	Mucus (beak), stringy 
C	Nasal discharge, aqueouse 
C	Nasal discharge, mucopurulent 
D	Newcastle Disease 
D	Nose wattle, grey 
D	Paratyphus 
Y	Performance, rapid reduction 
Y	Performance, reduced 
Y	Plumage, puffed-up 
D	Plumage, rough 
D	Salmonella typhi murium 
D	Septicaemia 
Y	Vitality, reduced 
D	Vomiting 
Y	Water intake, excessive 
Y	Water intake, increased 
Y	Weight, loss of


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Show a picture of what you're feeding him. I'd probably worry most about him getting a yeast infection from the sound of it. That would require that you get some Nystatin in a powdered form. But I can't get an idea of how many actual Calories you're getting through him per day. He should probably be getting at least 30 or 40.

Pidgey


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## Luffy (Feb 27, 2011)

After understanding the risk of yeast, I started giving him hydration fluid with little higher amount of baking soda. And I gave him curd also increased the intake of bread. This all has helped him recover. His poops are now having solid content, but they are in a middle of a small puddle of water. Poops have become slimy and very hard to clean from the floor. Things were getting better, however suddenly for the last few days I have seen the worst symptom of neck torsion, Unable to control neck, walking in circles, unable to fly and falls from even a small height. I think I have hinted about paramyxo earlier in one of my post on 5th May but I thought otherwise. Now I am sure its paramyxovirus. I am not sure if he had this all along or he just contracted it. However Zoro is in total isolation in my bedroom, I don't know from where he got it. Maybe its due to weakness that paramyxo was able to get hold of him. Maybe he had it all along but is showing the symptom of torsion of neck for only last 3-4 days.

Is there any other disease which may cause torsion of neck, walking in circles, falling and rolling over?
If not, as I have heard there is no medicine for paramyxo but we just have to wait to run its course of 4 weeks, should I still keep giving him sulpha? Also, should I be giving him bread or its time to give him some grains. I think his poops are so sticky and slimy because of the bread. They become slippery like wheat flour. 

Another problem is I will be moving away from this city by the end of month and even if he does not recover fully, I will have to release him. There is no chance of taking him with me. If paramyxo does still have to run its course, I and he are doomed. However even if he recovers he wont be able to come up to full strength. This fight against nature is probably going to end in a bad way. i will need to find someone in Bangalore who would be willing to take a sick bird. I dont think that will work out. Anyway, Paramyxo kills its victims in 70% of the cases, so may be I am worrying over matters which aren't going to happen  .

EDIT: Oh yeah he is having quite a bit of feather loss, not sure if it is because of molting or just a symptom of some disease or weakness. I have seen him taking out feathers while he is preening, maybe he is just puling the weak ones. If he is really molting for the first time that might be adding to the stress. That is another reason I asked for the bread thing. Will bread provide sufficient nutrients for growing feathers. Forgot to add one more thing that he has grown a small blister kind of small lump on his foot claw very close to the nail.

Also, haven't seen Karyn in a while here, hope she is doing great and having a vacation somewhere.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Luffy, yes, I have been away, glad Zoro is still hanging in there.

There are bacterial infections that can mimic the symptoms of PPMV, the one most talked about is the nervous form of paratyphoid (salmonellosis) and some ear infections can do this as well. The drug of choice, most times, for the treatment of paratyphoid in pigeons is a drug in the fluoroquinolone family of drugs, such as Baytril (Enrofloxacin) or Ciprofloxacin. Because you are in India there is also the possibility that there could be a some bacteria, not commonly thought of as causing what you are seeing in Zoro, not on our Western radar screens. I know from experience there are some bacteria here that are not sensitive to the drugs Zoro has been on, the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Doxycycline, there is also the possibility that it could indeed be PPMV, but to me, from the start, Zoro has not presented as a PPMV bird, but again, there is also the possibility he could have co-infections.

It may be time to make a change in meds again, because we do not have the possibility of lab test being done, it may be time to try Zoro on perhaps the broadest spectrum antibiotic that is very safe for use in pigeons and that is a antibiotic called Chloramphenicol Palmitate, it can come in capsules or pills and we can make up a suspension, like we did for the Doxycycline. There are some precautions for mixing for us (humans) to take when using this med, that I will explain, if you tell me you can get this med (or see if you can find Thiamphenicol, derivative of Chloramphenicol, but with the benefit of no precautions for humans).

If this is viral in nature, then for the time being you can only offer supportive care and hope that in time he can recover, but if it is bacterial, or co-infections then it may be worthwhile seeing if we can start a med that may be better able to clear any possible infection that Zoro may have.

Not, sure if the bread is causing the slimy droppings, for a great deal of city feral pigeons around the world bread is what they eat most days (in one form or another), without slimy dropping, when pigeons have mucusy looking droppings (slimy) I more associate this with some kind of GI ill (infection).

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

'Bout time you got back...

Pidgey


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