# How to take care of a pigeon in trouble



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hello Everyone,
In going through all the posts in the various topics, I noticed that there are people here who are in various stages of knowledge and experience ranging from those who want to help a pigeon to those who are very knowledgeable in what to do. 
I think that a topic I'm setting up now would be very helpful for everyone across the board. What I miss, others can fill in. If I'm wrong, others can correct.
Please understand that I am going to talk about my ideas and experiences and that it is in no way arrogance on my part. I wish I knew more and I'll never know enough. There are questions of morality in treating these birds for which there are no answers. There are birds that I have tried everything on and failed. Those failures, if allowed to fester in the mind could prevent another bird from being saved. There will be failures. They are heartbreaking. There are times I have wanted to walk away for the activity out of disgust. Don't let it stop you from trying again. I suppose I am halfway talking to myself at the same time.
Nothing you did and probably nothing a vet could do would probably have saved many of those birds. Never feel guilty that you may have missed something. You do your best and that is a lot more than the vast majority of people out there would ever do for a pigeon or any other bird. Don't ever be afraid to try something. It is better than doing nothing and giving the bird no chance at all to survive.
Ranging from cancer to metabolic failures, birds with certain conditions are not going to make it. There may be unknown illnesses out there that the science has not been able to identify as yet. I am thinking of one particular illness and no vet has been able to give me a clue as to what the problem was and I do peridically come across it. How are we supposed to cure a bird where the illness is still a mystery to veterinarian science?
You will make mistakes and will lose birds from those mistakes. I promise you that if you recognize the error, you will never make it again. That is a necessary learning process that all people in bird rescue and rehabilitation go through. There is a learning curve and it is necessary to go through it. There is no way around it.
How to minimize these errors and maximize the success rate is what I want to first talk about.
Again, there is so much involved, I may very well miss covering some topics or give some errouneous information and I hope that you will come in and correct me. 
We need all the help and input we can get. 
Please understand that my way is not necessarily the best way and is certainly not how other people the problem of a bird in trouble. It's a start. People will hopefully come in and give their opinions. You do what feels right for you.



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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Wildlife Rehabilitation:
The function of wildlife rehabilitation is to treat an animal with the purpose of restoring it to a point that it can be released back into the wild and be able to survive.
An individual with a wildlife rehabilitation license has an obligation to put down those animals that cannot make it. I would suppose that there are those rehabilitators that do not have the heart to destroy particular animals and keep them if they are not releasable but everyone has limited resources and most of those that cannot be returned to the wild are going to be euthanised.
There is no requirement that a rehabilitation license is need to keep, maintain and treat pigeons, sparrows and starlings. They are not native species and are therefore unprotected species. They are however, covered under the humane animal laws and therefore have to be accorded the respect and dignity required to keep them in as good a condition as possible. 
What constitutes humane is not only a legal problem for its definition but there are times when it becomes a moral dilemma and I will give you one expample.
About two months ago on a Suday night at about 10:30, I was coming home and saw an adolescent pigeon hiding by a fence. He was standing but his head was down towards the ground. That is a sign of pain in the crop or intestines. When I got him home, I examined his body looking for the source of the pain and found it. I felt a large hard substance inside and at the base of the crop. This was killing the bird. It was obstructing him. It was probably infecting him and it was causing a lot of distress. Based on what I saw of this bird's behaviour, I didn't think he would make it through the night.
It's 10:30pm on a Sunday. The bird is in a lot of pain. Death is coming soon. There was no way to get to a vet at that time. I had to make a decision.
When a bird is very thin, plucking chest feathers can actually rip out the skin. So, I used scissors to cut the feathers down to the base and cleared an area on the upper breast and to the right side of the bird. Doing it in the center is working directly over the esophagus and that is a no-no. The esophagus could herniate.
When enough area was cleared, I manipulated the rock-like object up towards that area and held it tight against the side of the crop. I then took a clean sharp Exacto knife and make a cut long enough to be able to remove this object but no longer than that.
When the cut was made, I pressed the object out through the incision. It was an unshelled peanut, swollen and way larger than when the bird first swallowed it from the moisture in the crop. When young birds are starving and they see something that they can swallow, they don't know enough to stay away from it and they take it down.
I stitched the skin closed but not the crop. The crop heals quickly, in about five days. There is a layer of fat and muscle uner the skin and I only sutured the skin. Anesthesia would be needed to go that deeply to suture anything else.
The bird was put on Baytril and hand fed some soaked Purina Puppy Chow, an easily digestible food that is very good for sick birds. I didn't want to feed seed because I knew the Puppy Chow would have a greater chance go past the wound and not get caught. Seed could be captured in the wound and possibly fester or go through the unsutured crop wound. The amount of food given was obviously never enough to fill the crop up to the level of that wound in the upper right breast area. 
In five days, when I felt the crop was closed, seed was started and the Puppy Chow was eliminated. Although the Chow is good, it has a lot of protein and can cause gout in birds so it can't really be given for long periods of time. I have no idea how long is too long.
The sutures were taken out on the tenth day. Everything was closed up. The bird was kept for another two weeks to build him up. That bird bonded to me. He became finger tame and he like to fly onto my head. He was too thin to release immediately. There was not enough fat to keep him viable in this cold weather. I took him to a friend who will keep him through the winter and release him in the spring.
So now you know about the internal conflicts that come up between what is legally humane treatment and ethical dilemma. I don't have the answer to whether I did the right thing here. All I know is that the bird is now alive, healthy and has a second chance. Right and wrong are not so easy to define.
Incidentally, I had a bird soon after that experience that had swallowed an acorn. This was also an adolescent but this one could not survive. He was infected from top to bottom. You could see pus coming out of his cloaca. He was too far gone to do anything. They do swallow these nuts.
So if you see a bird that is on the ground, pecking put appears to be extremely weak, reluctant to fly and is staying away from the group, that bird needs help and you never know what the problem is until you get it. At that point, it could be anything.




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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Physical Examination Before the Physical Examination
A physical examination is started even before a bird is picked up. Is the bird staying away from the flock? Is it limping? Is a wing dragging? Is it lying down? Is it actively competing for food or is it staying on the fringes of the flock half trying to get at food or not going after it at all? Is it looking at food but not trying to pick it up? Are the feathers under the lower beak and on the cheeks puffed out. Is the bird breathing with it's mouth open a little bit? Is there any sign of swelling around the mouth. Are both eyes open? Is there redness or swelling in the eyes? Is there wetness that can be seen by the nares? Is the bird picking up food but it is falling out of its mouth? Are all the feathers puffed up? Is the bird weak? Is the bird still on the ground when the flock flies away? Is it just sitting at the base of a tree or some other object? Is the bird standing under a parked car? Is there a visible injury? When the bird comes down to eat, does it land lying down? There are reasons for all of these symptoms and you can never take anything for granted.
To capture a bird that can still fly is not easy. I throw bird seed and watch the flock as they eat. If there is a bird that does not act normally for any of the reasons written above, I will try go come up behind it and when it's head is down grabbing seed or toherwise looking away, I will make a grab for it. I'm not always sucessfull but I try. The chances are that if you see a bird that is in trouble, if you don't get it right then and there, you may not see it again or otherwise not have an opportunity to get it.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

The actual Physical Examination:
When a bird is in your hands, it is absolutely vital to look at everything from head to foot. 
Looking in the mouth, at the eyes, the lids, the nares is so obvious and there is so much to be said about it. There is so much that can be wrong in those areas. These are the first things to look at. Is the beak(s) curved and could it have been from an impact injury? Is the beak overgrown or scissored? Is the beak cracked? Is the tissue that lines the inside lower beak attached to the beak? Is there swelling under the chin? Sometimes canker gets in under the tongue and you don't know unless you feel a swelling. Sometimes a bacterial infection gets under the tongue and moves into the jaw? Is the tongue discolored? That could be a chemical burn or infection. Look at the insides of the cheeks. Sometimes an object like a feather shaft penetrates into the cheek and causes a painful abscess. Is there a yellow area in the cheek? The sinuses can generate infection that can travel into the cheek area.
Is there any matting of feathers or pus by the ears? Even though the eyes may look good, is there matting around the feathers asurrounding the eyes? It could be a skin infection there.
Other parts of the body can indicate what is wrong and they have to be looked at very closely.
Aside from obvious injuries, look for the not so obvious. If the bird is limping, is there a swelling on the bottom of the foot? That could be a bumble foot and that is serious. Do you see any swelling in the leg joints? Is there any whitish material under the skin anywhere on the legs? It could be gout. It could be an infection. Is there string on the toes and/or legs. That has to be taken care of immediately and an entire section should be devoted to that problem. I'll talk about that another time.
Is there an unusual feeling to any of the body feathers? I had a bird that was very weak and I felt a straight line of feathers running along the right rear side of the bird that felt very odd. It was a huge abcess in the skin that was running horizontally and affecting the follicles as it travelled. Antibiotics and then pulling out the affected feathers saved the bird. If I had not felt those feathers, antibiotics alone would not have saved the bird. That abscess source had to be removed to allow drainage.
Look for any swellings on the body and wings. A swelling on the winds could be paratyphoid (salmonella). If it is an injury, you may see some blood on the underside of the wing at the point where it meets the body. If you part the feathers, you may get more that you bargained for. You may see an opening large enough to view bone and many times, that bone has been shattered or broken. A little blood on the feathers may not tell the entire story. 
Look at the cloacal area. See if it is herniated. That is called a prolapsed cloaca and if you can't afford the surgery to repair it, the bird has to be put down. Look for canker in that area. Sometimes canker bypasses the mouth and crop and sets up shop in that area. Look to see that droppings are not clogging the cloaca. If that is allowed to remain, the backup will cause toxins to kill the bird. That comes from a number of sources; bad hygiene, kidney problems or digestive system problems. 
Look at the oil gland. Is it clogged?
Do you see any skin growth on the edge of the wing that looks like a mushroom? That is cancer. Is there a skin growth coming up from the shoulder. That is probably cancer.
Is there any tumor on the beak. It could be cancer or benign.
I don't think I covered all of it but the bottom line is take nothing for granted and look at every part of the bird's body.

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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Wow Fred! This is really amazing! I don't think I would have been brave enough to try surgery on my own.

You are very kind to take the time to explain
your experience and methods. Ray will love this when he sees it.

Thanks!

Judy


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Judy,
Please don't forget that I'm not a vet and would always take a pigeon to one for something like this if there is one available. Under those circumstances it was do now or die.

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

The sick and injured pigeon is as vulnerable to time delay as a person. The longer the condition continues, the harder it will be to help it. 
When I started this activity, I looked for pigeons on the ground, in columns, under cars, in store fronts, at bases of trees and found them. The problem was that most of these birds had reached a point in time when they were too weak and were essentially waiting to die. The one exception to this was the baby pigeons that would fall out of nests. Those would be picked up and raised. 
But, most of the time, nothing I could do for these downed birds would work. It was too late and they were in the last stages of the dying process. Soon, they would begin to gasp as their heart and lungs started to go and death became more imminent. Of course there were and are exceptions but statistically, you will save more birds the earlier you get them.
There came a realization that I was losing most of these birds and that I was not going to save very much at all if I waited to get them at this point. They had to be gotten at an earlier stage.
What I did was to buy wild bird seed or pigeon feed when it was available and on the weekends, go down to the flock I watch over and toss handfuls onto the ground. The flock would fly down and that would enable me to study these birds as individuals. Over the years, when I see a bird in trouble in the flock, I grab it while it is eating, take it home and treat immediately. If the bird can be saved, it is going to have to be treated in these early stages.
You can't pick up a bird in the last stages of life because of, let's say canker and expect to save it. It is so weak that it can die from handling shock alone. In addition, if you can get any medicine and food down the bird, more often than not, the blood will start to move to the digestive system areas to pick up any nutrition and that puts a strain on the rest of the bird's system and that bird can die very easily. Birds have died while I was feeding them. A bird has to have some internal strength with which it can work to help itself along with you do for it.
If you are feeding a flock and see a bird that is picking up food and you see it dropping out of the mouth, that bird has canker and if you can't grab it to treat now, it may well be too late to treat a week later.
Now, I'm not able to afford to take a bird to a vet for tests. They can run over $250 not including X-rays. I'm forced to treat for an unknown illness right at the beginning. I use a shotgun appoach if the illness is not self evident. 
If the bird has strength and I feel it is safe, I powder the bird down before I bring it into the house. This powder kills everything on the bird except the bird. To get all areas, the bird has to be turned over so powder can be applied to the underside. If the bird is too weak, that is not going to be done and the powder goes on the top of the bird only. Be careful not to get any powder into the eyes, nares or mouth.
The next thing that is done is to put the beak into water for a second. Most of the time, the pigeon will start to drink immediately.
Three pills then go down the moist throat; Carnidazole to kill canker even if it can't be seen, Appertex to kill coccidia, another common protozoan and a 5mg pill of Baytril. That bird has to prove to me that it does not need an antibiotic before I'll stop it. A few days later and if the bird is over two months old, The bird will get a wormer called Ivermectin. That drug is very potent and giving it immediately along with the other medications is too much at one time.
Droppings in a sick bird or a starved bird are going to look similar at first. They are going to be green from all the excess bile that is in the system and has had nothing to work on. Of course there are going to be exceptions. If you see a yellow dropping, there is liver trouble. 
If the bird eats seed on its own, great and if for any reason, it does not eat, then I hand feed some Purina Puppy Chow and wait for droppings. You can't expect a bird to improve if it does not eat. It can't live on thin air. If a crop is empty, it can take over three hours to see the first dropping and even there, it can be all liquid and urates. The digestive system in a starved or ill bird takes time to start up. It can take a week or more to see normal droppings in a starved bird and a lot longer with a sick one.
If the bird throws up the food you put down, there could be a number of reasons for that happening and I'll go into that in another post. If you are hand feeding, don't put too much food down at once because the crop may not be able to handle it all at the beginning 
As experience grows, you will be able to distinguish starvation from illness by watching the progress and general disposition of the pigeon.
For me, the shotgun approach is the way to go. Other people are not going to agree with me on this. They would prefer to take a wait and see attitude. They may be right and I may be wrong but that is the way I do it. Don't forget that in the case of a cooped bird, it may be necessary to see what develops because the rest of the flock is going to need specific medication based on a definite diagnosis. In the feral pigeon, I feel there is no time to wait. There is a small window in which a feral bird can be helped because we don't know how long it has been in the condition in which we first see it.
Be careful of the powder you use to kill insects on the outside of the bird. Many that are given for cats and dogs are toxic. One safe powder is Pyrethrin. It is a very good insecticide. The problem for me is that I break out in an allergic rash from touching it so I switched over to an artificial Pyrethrin called Extiban D. It is vital to use a powder. Feather mites suck blood and can kill a bird. If you are treating an ill bird, don't let the mites sap strength when it needs it the most.
The pigeon fly is a walking, flying tank. You can slap it and that won't kill it. That fly is specialized to the pigeon. It sucks blood and it carries a form of malaria. Kill them with powder. Ivermectin works on both insects from the inside but it is slower.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Fred,

Wow! I am with Judy on this one. Thank you so much for taking the time to prepare all these posts. It is a lot of material to try to assimilate at one time, so thanks is all you get right now from me! I did note, however, the very good list of things to look for when both viewing a bird from a distance as well as during a physical exam. All these things provide valuable information/clues as to what is going on with the bird.

Terry Whatley


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Terry,
Thanks. I'm trying to give this everything I've got. 

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

String:
Have you ever seen a pigeon that has missing toes or even a missing leg? The chances are that the digits and/or leg were lost from string being wrapped around them.
I can't think of anything more horrible than that happening to a bird. Imagine tying a rubber band around your finger as tightly as you can. You know what kind of pain there will be. You can take off the rubber band. The pigeon cannot take off the string. They can't walk up to anyone and ask for help. They suffer great pain and it can take over a year before the pain goes away along with the toe(s) or foot or leg.
For me, this affliction represents the symbol of humanity's neglect of the natural world. String as thin as nylon thread to wrapping string is all discarded on the ground. Pigeons walking on that ground will get it wrapped around their feet. The string curls and twirls around a toe or more digits and knots form. They begin to tighten and start to cut into the skin. Then when the string cuts though all the skin and muscle and tendons, it begins to tighten around the bone. 
A dry type of gangrene forms. the toe begins to die from lack of circulation. Lack of circulation affects the other toes and they begin to curl into a permanent contorted postition. Eventually, the toe falls off or if the string is wrapped around the leg, that falls off. If anything falls off prematurely, the bird will bleed to death. And throughout this process, the bird is limping in pain and trying to survive. 
String can wrap around and tie both legs together so if you see a bird lying down on the ground and eating, that could very well be the cause. 
An injured bird will be far more reluctant to allow a person to approach within grabbing distance and that makes it much tougher to get it. I have gone for more than a month trying to capture any particular bird with string wrapped around it.
If you get one, the trouble is just beginning. You need a pair of magnifying glasses even if your eyesight is good. You have to get as close as possible to the site to see what is going on. One wrong move and the bird can begin to bleed heavily. Pressure can stop the bleed but try to find the right point when you are working in blood and twisted contorted flesh that no longer resembles a foot.
You need a good strong light similar to the tensor lamps. You need dental type picks and those can be purchased at a number of hardware stores. They have different tops and straight picks are not always the right ones to use. You need a good pair of small surgical scissors and a good pair of tweezers. You need small Exacto type knives. There has to be cotton, cotton swabs and something like Quik Stop to try to stem any bleeding. Finally, you need Betadyne to disinfect the area when you are done. All of this has to be available before even starting to work on the string.
Pulling on the string up from one side is simply going to pull the string on the other side more deeply into the tissue. The picks have to be placed under the string and a knife used to cut it. Tweezers are used to unravel the string which can be wrapped around the inside of the wound a few times. When you hit a point where you can't unwind the string, you are at another knot and have to work with the dental pick again. If you can find other loose ends on the other side of the digit, cut wherever you safely can and maybe you will get lucky and the string will be able to be pulled out in pieces.
Incidentally, if you are working alone, one hand is holding the bird while you are tring to use your other hand to work with the tools.
Don't be surprised if you find that as you unravel the string, it may follow all the way around the foot or ankle from places where you didn't even realize there were cuts.
Sometimes all that is holding the toe to the body is the string and in taking the string off, the toe could come off with it. If there is still a blood supply, expect to apply pressure to the stump constantly for at least 40 minutes to stop a major bleed.
If you are fortunate enough to get all the string off, your work is not finished. 
I once had a bird where the string was wrapped around an area above the ankle and below the knee(hock joint). That part of the leg was going to come off and if it came off too early, the bird would bleed to death. After the string was off, I fashioned a wire splint that wrapped around the bottom of the foot and taped to an area above the wound so the leg could not fall off until it was time. When it did, I kept the bird until it healed and then released it. He did very nicely for a few years.
What do you do about the remaining toes that are curled from lack of circulation? Trace an outline of the bottom of the foot and cut out a piece of plastic coffee can cover to match. Cut small notches in each piece for the toe nails and place the fitted plastic on the bottom of the foot. Tape each toe to the plastic piece and tape the center of the foot to hold the entire device. You may have to stretch the toe in order to make it fit but that is the whole point. Straightening out the toes can take three weeks or longer but they have to be stretched by this device or it isn't going to work.
Sometimes, if one toe is involved, there is no curling of the others but the toe can be dying from lack of circulation. The toe dies from the top down so that if there is still circulation at the base and the bird accidentally hits the toe, it can break off prematurely and cause a major bleed. If I can release the bird save that one condition, what I do is cut off that part of the toe that is dead so that only a small stump remains and the bird can be safely released without my having to worry about another injury happening. If there is still circulation in the toe, I wait until it disappears and then cut with the surgical scissors. It's dead tissue and the nerves are gone so the bird feels nothing.
There can be pus pockets in the foot or not. In any case, I give an antibiotic.



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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Scalping:
Pigeons fight with each other for a number of reasons. A bird could land on another's roosting place. An aggressive male could be protecting his mate and these birds mate for life. There could be competition over food. One male may just be in a bad mood. A male coming across a nest with two squabs, could attack and kill one or both unless one of the parents is protecting the nest and will fight back to protect the young. Older females can be as feisty and aggressive as the males.
The only weapon a pigeon has in a fight is its beak and it can be used very proficiently. A bird will many times grab onto the scalp of another, hold on tightly and shake it. Many times, the skin will be ripped right off of the bird being attacked. This is scalping and the aftermath is that the skull can be seen. If it is not kept clean, infection can develop and that is going to be the end of the bird.
Unless the scalp has not been entirely ripped from the body and could be reattached with sutures, the bare area could take months to heal. Anyone wanting to help a bird in this situation should expect to hold that pigeon for a long time. The only treatment is to keep the wound clean. There is a very good disinfectant on the market called Nolvasan. It is used to clean cages and coops and swabbing the wound with Nolvasan twice a day will serve to keep the area clean and infection free.
It does happen more than anyone realizes. A few months ago, I saw an adult male that had been scalped above the left eye and towards the top of the head. I didn't have any food with me so there was no way that I could grab the bird. On the weekend, I brought some food to the area and brought the flock down. The bird was there and the skin around the wound looked redder. An attempt to get the bird failed and a week later another try at it also failed. That time, the area was definitely infected. I didn't see the bird again after that. 
Expect many disappointments and try not to become like me, losing some sleep thinking that there is a bird out there that needs help.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Skin infections around the eye:
I had received a call from a neighbor who feeds pigeons that she picked up a "blind bird." When I got the bird, there was a lot of matter caking both eyes. The feathers all around both eyes were all matted as if they had been glued. They weren't but it looked that way. In the center of the caking, I could see a small opening and there was an eye there. 
My first instinct was to assume that there was an eye infection and that the oozing had spread out to the surrounding feathers and matted them. It turned out that the opposite was true. 
Never use an oil based antibiotic salve on a bird. The oil spreads out and takes away the feathers' heat and cold insulation abilitities.
I used a water based antibiotic cream and covered both the eye and surrounding feather areas. In a few days, the matted feathers around the eyes started to loosen up and I was able to remove them. They came off in one piece. Lo and behold, the eyes were fine. The entire area around the eyes had a skin infection. The eyelids were fine.
You would not believe the look in that bird when he could see for the first time in I don't know how long.
When the redness on the skin disappeared, I released the bird back to his flock.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Unknown Illnesses:
We can pick up a bird and no matter what we try to do to help, the pigeon will die. Just because we don't know what the cause of death was, doesn't mean anything. The bird was not tested by laboratory procedures. The cause of death may not be known to us but that doesn't mean it was an unknown illness. It was we who did not know.
There is one that I and others have come across that remains a mystery. There are a number of illness out there that are defined as "going light" diseases. The bird loses weight and there are other symptoms. These illness can range from a type of tuberculosis (MA) to a chronic salmonella(parathyphoid).
I and others whom I know have picked up birds that have lost huge amounts of weight. The bird is weak and droppings are not normal. We hand feed and give any number of medications and the bird dies anyway.
One day I was talking to a Connecticut rehabilitator and mentioned this weight loss to her. She said she had experienced the same kind of symptoms in a few pigeons and had a carcass taken over to the vet whom we both use. He did a necropsy and found that all organs looked fine. The only thing that was wrong was that there was absolutely no fat in the body. The cause was unknown to the vet.
My best guess would be that it is a metabolic failure. Something may go chemically go wrong with the thyroid and some imbalance burns up the body fat. 
It sounds logical except for one thing. This happens to birds in spurts. There are times when we see a number of birds during the same time period with this condition and as quickly as it comes, it fades away.
This doesn't appear to be relegated to pigeons only. Recently, on a parrot club, I had mentioned this and one person posted that she lost a parrot(conure) to a total loss of body fat and that is the only thing the vet found wrong with the bird. If one parrot makes for a generalization that it does cut across species, then it was the same thing.
Remember that just because you may pick up a bird with very little body fat means nothing as far as diagnosing the illness or state of starvation but it might be this unknown illness. 




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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Air sac problems:
Bird do not breathe in the same way we do. The chest in a bird will expand horizontally and that pulls air into a series of air sacs attached to the bronchials. Exhaling actually pushes the air from the air sacks into the lungs where the blood gases are exchanged. When the bird inhales again, the air sacs take in another quantity of air and the exhalation also pushes the old air out of the lungs. We need only to take one breath and one exhalation. Birds need to do this twice in the normal breathing process. 
There is no separation between the lungs and the crop/intestines in a bird. Any illness in either the crop or the lungs/air sacs can easily spread to the other organs. I had a cockatiel that picked up a fungal infection called Aspergillosis in it's lungs. The infection broke through the lung wall and set up shop in the intestines. There was a bridge of foreign tissue attaching the lung to the intestines and there was no chance that my cockatiel was going to live and it didn't.
If a bird sustains an injury to an air sac, the sac can burst open allowing air to escape into the chest cavity. The bird's chest blows up like a balloon. The equalization of air pressure in the chest cavity and the outside makes it difficult for the bird to breath. 
To save the bird, take a clean pin and make a puncture in the skin above the crop. Be very careful that the pin will not penetrate the crop. When the pin is in, pull the opening down. In other words, stretch the opening make by the pin. Gently press on the chest and the air will escape through the opening you made. 
This happens more often with other birds such as robins but I have seen this a few times in pigeons. 
I always give the bird an antibiotic while the air sac heals.
Air saculitis is a condition that is caused by a number of different ailments. The air sacs can be a nesting place for air sac mites. There can be a general disease that causes inflammation of the air sacs. Bacterial infection can cause it. Aspergillosis can cause the condition. Gout can cause deposits to form in the air sacs.
Ivermectin will kill air sac mites. Sometimes, nothing will alleviate the more generalized air sacculitis and the cause can only be determined by necropsy. When it occurs in parrots, the birds have to be periodically taken to a vet to have the air expunged. Vets us a hyperdermic needle to draw out the air from the chest cavity. I found that using the pin method is just as effective.
If you hear clicking sounds in the chest when the bird breathes, suspect that something is very wrong in the air sacs. Whatever is in them is bouncing inside as the sacs expand and contract and that is the clicking you hear.
There is one pigeon that has a naturally puffed up chest. I forget the name of that type bird and I hope somebody here knows it. It may be called a Puffer. Obviously that appearance is normal for that type of pigeon.
The air sac problem can be totally different that a bird that has chest wheezing and congestion. You can hear fluid in the chest. That is more likely a respiratory infection and is treated with antibiotics. Granted, it can sometimes be very difficult to distinguish between the two conditions.



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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm posting a link about pigeon diseases below. The discussion on paramyxo is very good and extremely interesting. It does not cover droppings and I do want to go over that.
To my knowledge, there are 7 viruses in the paramyxo family. The one that hits pigeons is PMVI. I believe PMVII hits parrots and it does not exist in this country so far.(West Nile virus wasn't in this country either until a couple of years ago).
A bird infected with PMVI will not transmit it to a parrot. Those birds are susceptible to PMVII. 
The author at this link believes the bird can be treated and cured. Everything I have read about it indicates that it is fatal in 95% of the birds that develop it and the other 5% that survive become carriers for life. I hope some of the folks here who have had experience with this virus can shed some light on who is giving correct information.
I also understand that this is an airborne disease and birds in coops can be carried out by the dozens, dead.
Everything I have read about this virus is that it can be treated but that it can reoccur in the bird a couple of weeks later.
Droppings can be almost pure liquid and profuse. How a bird can be sustained with such a great loss of electrolytes is something I don't know. I have come home to a bird that was literally standing in urine saturated towelling. Giving Pedialye as a way of replacement of electrolytes never did anything to help the bird recover.
The solid portion of the droppings can be string-like. That alone is not a symptom of PMVI. It can be part of the process but there are other causes for that happening so if you get a bird that has string droppings, it is not always a symptom of PMVI. It could also be the result of a mild case of PMVI. If profuse urine develops later, you have a bird with PMVI. I have one adolescent at home now that does not appear to have the virus but had the string droppings. There could have been an infection in the intestines that caused swelling and therefore caused a thinner solid dropping. The bird's droppings are fine now and Baytril is what helped. Msybe. And maybe it was a case of a mild PMVI.
But if the newspaper or towelling is soaked through from liquid droppings, I can't see how the bird can be saved.
In the meantime, if you have a bird with PMVI near other birds, those pigeons are going to be in danger of contracting the virus.
There are three possible reasons why a bird will walk around in circles and or twist its neck making up down and down up, not be able to hit the food it aims at and not be able to fly in a straight line. The first is the PMVI. The second is a concussion and the third is an inner ear infection.
It has to be your call if you bring in a bird with the nervous system symptoms. I would think that the most probable reason is PMVI. 
I will not take a chance and knowingly bring in a bird with the above symptoms but it has to be up to you.
Here is the link to the site: http://www.comanco.com/understa.htm 


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

PMVI:
Incidentally. many times PMVI initially begins with a respiratory illness that produces sneezing. At that early stage, you aren't going to know what you have in the bird.

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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

STRING:

Hi Fred and Everyone!

Fred, thank you again for the terrific posts. I really appreciate them and am sure many others do also. Just a couple of comments that struck me while reading the more recent ones.

The one about about string (and I include discarded fishing line in this category .. it is the bane of my existence and that of my waterfowl freinds) really struck home since I see literally dozens of birds (mostly waterfowl) afflicted with string injuries every year. As you noted, these string injuries are very, very painful and result in a prolonged and miserable death for the bird if not captured and treated. Even then, the loss of toes, entire feet, or even all or part of a leg or wing can result. 

Every one of us who loves birds and animals needs to make an extra special effort whenever we are out to take that little bit of time to pick up and properly dispose of anything that could be harmful to birds and animals. Just throwing string, fishing line, plastic soda can holders, broken glass and such into a trash can is not proper disposal to me. That trash is likely to end up in a landfill or garbage dump where some other hapless creature, whether it is a crow, gull, rat, mouse or whatever, is going to fall victim to the hazardous waste.

Often trash, such as fishing line and soft drink holders (basically any kind of plastic), can be cut up in very small pieces that would not be harmful to any creature and turned in for recycling. I also collect glass fragments and turn them in also (sometimes they take 'em and sometimes they don't).

There is one large lake here where I bet it would take about 100 volunteers about 1 week to go around and pick up all the discarded fishing waste (line, hooks, lead sinkers, etc.) that is potentially deadly to all sorts of creatures. While I doubt that I can muster 100 volunteers, I am going to take a shot at cleaning up this lake one of these days with the help of whomever I am able to get.

Terry Whatley


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

WATERY DROPPINGS:

I currently have a pigeon named Phoenix that has been with me for several months. Phoenix was entangled in fishing line and was seen flailing upside down hanging from a water tower in a park. A city tree crew was brought in to get the bird down and Phoenix was brought to me for care. In his attempts to free himself from his deadly predicament, Phoenix had managed to split himself open from the base of the neck all the way to his vent. You could see all the internal organs of this bird. Though my vet felt it unlikely that the bird would survive, he performed emergency surgery to stitch the bird up and sent him home with me.

Phoenix is still with us (which still astounds my vet), eats, and drinks normally but has extremely watery droppings. He can soak the cage bottom to the point the paper and toweling have to be changed at least twice per day. My vet's take on this is that his injuries were so severe that it may take up to a year for him to completely heal and perhaps that the watery droppings will never completely go away.

While this is not a typical case of watery droppings, I thought it worth mentioning that severe internal trauma may also cause this condition.

Terry Whatley


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

GOING LIGHT & ODOR:

I don't believe Fred has mentioned yet to be aware of any unusual smell associated with a bird you are trying to help or diagnose. 

I have a pigeon named Stinky who was found in a trash can in a public park with a severely broken leg. When I first got Stinky, she REEKED with the most awful smell. I thought it was from having been thrown in with the garbage for a day or so, but I was wrong.

Stinky was also extremely emaciated and my vet felt her terrible odor was due to her body literally eating itself up in order to try to survive. There certainly was not even an iota of body fat on this bird. Stinky's leg was successfully set and healed perfectly. It took a period of 3-4 months for the terrible odor to go away. In Stinky's case, the smell was due to starvation. In other birds, I have noticed odor due to extreme infection/abcesses and open wounds that have become maggot infested.
For lack of a better term, the smell of "maggot juice" is quite unpleasant. (OK Ray, now you've got one to go with "puke" <VBG>!)

Terry Whatley


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Terry,
Thank you for continuing to post. You are helping to fill in missing information. I hope this triggers a lot of posts from everyone and we just keep going with incidents that we all remember and experiences we had to help these birds.
Terry, is Phoenix dehydrating? It certainly sounds like it. Would you be willing to ask your vet if you can substitute Pedialyte for regular drinking water as long as this continues and inquire if your bird needs an injection of elecrolytes?
Would you also be willing to take Phoenix over to the vet and request a blood test called a Complete Blood Profile? This will tell the vet how the kidneys are functioning.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Bumble Foot:
This condition is nothing any of us can do anything about. Bumble foot is usually the result of a wart becoming infected. It's a very painful condition and cannot be treated other than with surgery. This occurs on the bottom of the foot and appears as a very visible swelling.
The problem with surgery is that the area is loaded with blood vessels and is not easy for the vet to correct the condition. Additionally, there is always a possibility it will recur after surgery. 
The advice you will most probably get from a vet is to euthanize the bird. When it occurs in pet birds, the owners will usually opt for the surgery. A feral pigeon is not going to get that kind of reaction from the vet unlesss you are willing to pay a fairly large amount to pay for surgery that may not be successful.
Whether any of you have parrots or pigeons as pets, dirty perches can cause Bumble Foot so scrape them often.

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## constantin (Mar 2, 2001)

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your valuable information. And thanks for the links to Foy and Global.

Constantin


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

PHOENIX / DEHYDRATION

Hi Fred and all,

I truly don't think Phoenix is dehydrated .. don't see any signs of it in spite of the copious amount of fluid lost with the feces. I will have my vet check him just to be sure and can certainly use Pedialyte instead of water if needed. Phoenix does drink a good amount of water but not any more than the healthy birds. As to the blood test .. that would be interesting to know for sure that his bodily functions are working properly. If the vet thinks this is necessary, we'll do it right away. If not, then it will need to wait for a bit due to the cost of the test. My vet can do a "quickie" blood test in his office for not much money but to send it out to the lab gets pricey. Not trying to be cheap .. just have too many critters with large vet and meds bills right now.

Terry Whatley


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited January 20, 2002).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

BUMBLEFOOT:

I have yet to see a case of bumblefoot on a pigeon or other small bird so was quite interested in Fred's post on the topic. I am not saying they don't get bumblefoot, just that I have not seen a case.

In larger birds such as ducks and geese, bumblefoot is often caused by constantly standing on hard, smooth surfaces such as concrete or asphalt. As Fred noted, a large callous develops, becomes infected, and swells to an even larger size. If left untreated, the infection will become systemic and ultimately kill the bird.

In waterfowl, bumblefoot is treated in a couple of ways (but as Fred noted is likely to recur, and in my experience, recovery is rarely 100%). The callous would be surgically lanced/opened and drained. A large amount of pus will typically be found as will a very hard core much like found in a pimple. Failure to remove this core will certainly result in the problem presenting itself again. The bird is placed on antibiotics while the foot is kept clean and dry. (The clean and dry part is a real challenge with waterfowl.) The foot may also be soaked in Epsom Salts dissolved in warm water when bandages are changed. This assists in drawing out any lingering pus/infection. I have also heard of some homeopathic poultices being effective with bumblefoot, the most recent being a flax seed poultice. I know little about this but am putting it out there for thought.

Terry Whatley


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Terry,
I have seen Bumble Foot only twice in pigeons but felt that it was noteworthy in case anyone comes across it and if so, would have an awareness of the possibility.

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is a link to a dictionary of pigeon diseases. An awareness of all of these illnesses is excellent to have but be very careful if you find a bird that seems to fit in one of the categories. The same symptoms can apply to different illnesses. http://www.boglinmarsh.fsnet.co.uk/azdis1.htm 

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is a link to bird diseases in parrots. The reason I'm posting it is because some of these problems can be associated with pigeons. http://www.boglinmarsh.fsnet.co.uk/azdis1.htm 

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is a link that discusses seizure activity in budgies. Not only is this link good for that type of bird and other parrots, but it definitely has implications for the pigeon: http://www.inforamp.net/~dhansen/nervous.html 


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is a link to a site where you can find avian vets and avian services in various states. http://www.birdsnways.com/birds/vets.htm 

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is a site that introduces some of the anatomy of the bird: http://www.exoticbird.com/anat101.html 

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is a link to Foy's Pigeon Supplies where you can obtain medications and other supplies. This is the company that sells Ectoban D, a very good insecticidal powder: http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/ 

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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Here is the link to Global Pigeon Supply. You can purchase Baytril from them: http://www.globalpigeon.com/ 

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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Here, in part, is what David Marx, DVM, has to say about Bumblefoot:

*****

"Bumblefoot describes any inflammatory condition of the foot...where the tissues of the foot become infected by staphylococcus
...it can also be caused by an E-coli infection. The infection can get into the tendon sheaths, cartilaginous areas and other tissues where the foot has a very weak blood supply."

"The infection enters through the foot, most probably through some type of lesion. It seems heavier birds are predisposed to bumblefoot because of their weight..."

"Treatment for bacteria must be with antibiotics, and must be administered systemically...The penicillin family usually works well...Baytril also usually works well..."

"Externally, the foot should be cleansed and soaked in a Nolvasan solution or Epsom salts...Unless you can keep medication levels high for a good period of time, you'ree going to have a problem with recurrence."

"There are bumblefoot-type conditions that aren't classic bumblefoot...The gram negative rods, such as Klebsiella or Citrobacter can invade the foot...You will also see a bumble-foot like lesion with paratyphoid, which is caused when the salmonella organism invades the joints of the foot..."

"...Complete recovery from a severe case of bumblefoot is really uncommon..."

*****

At any rate, the doc says that the ailment is certainly worth treating and that the bird can certainly be salvaged.

Fred, many thanks for these remarkable posts and for the many links you provided. I'm going to recommend to Carl that we retain these posts and URL's, and incorporate them into a permanent page, which is now under construction for this site. Does that meet with your approval? If so, please email me for more information. I will certainly honor the privacy of your email address.

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

The Beak:
The beak is a complicated organ and is vital to a pigeon’s survival in the wild. Anything that goes wrong is most probably going to remove the bird’s ability to last very long. 
The organ is a lot more complicated than it looks. Basically, there is soft tissue under the horn and the body furnishes a large blood supply to it. There is a main vessel that runs through the beak and ends almost at the tip. The upper and lower beaks are always growing and as the tips wear down, new horn replaces the old. The growth cells that produce new beak are located at their bases. Those cells must produce beak tissue in sync because if they don’t. and the upper grows faster than the lower, the tip of the upper beak can hook over and grow long enough to prevent the bird from picking up food. 
Abnormal growth cells can occur by a birth defect, an injury or by disease. Illnesses such as canker and avian pox can severely damage or destroy the growth cells. If the growth cells are affected on one side, the beak can grow off center and produce what is commonly referred to as a scissor beak.
It is vital that the upper and lower beaks are perfectly aligned. A scissor beak will open the bird to problems ranging from not being able to properly pick up food to injury of the exposed inner mouth tissue that the normal beak should have been protecting. 
I once picked up a bird with a scissor beak and saw that it had been caused by injury to the left side of the lower beak. There was an open wound running parallel and a band of scar tissue that could be seen inside. The bird was taken to an avian vet. He put the bird under some anesthesia and severed the scar tissue in the hope that it would cause the beak to snap back into place. It didn’t and the vet euthanized the bird.
This wasn’t even what you could call a severe case of a scissor beak but the vet’s decision in putting the bird to sleep reflects the seriousness of even the slightest case of a beak that is out of alignment..
The only way to ensure a bird’s survival when it has a scissor beak is to keep it and try to trim it as often as is necessary. Some birds are taken to vets for the purpose of surgically shortening the beak in question and even though that can be done, the bird cannot be released back into the wild. 
There are various degrees of injury but they are all serious. There are injuries pigeons can sustain that will cause the beak to crack off. There are injuries that will cause the upper or lower beaks to become curved. A bird can be hit by a car and its beak can be completely ripped off. If a part of a beak has been cracked off, a vet can in some cases, put on a prosthetic device but if that is done, that bird becomes a keeper.
Avian pox can destroy a beak or damage it so severely that it will never come back to normal. Canker, can destroy much of the mouth tissue that adheres to the beaks and it can take a very long time for that tissue to regenerate. Meanwhile, the support for the beak has been seriously compromised. 
If you have to cut down more than just the tip of a beak that has become too long, be careful of the blood vessel. It is easy to snip it and there can be quite a bit of bleeding depending on how much you have cut. Use Ivory soap and only Ivory soap and push a small piece into the wound. Ivory soap is a coagulant and a disinfectant. It’s good for the beak and for toenails. To bring an unusually long beak down to size, it is going to take time. Cut and trim a little bit. If you reach the vessel and there is some bleeding, stop and let it heal for a few days or more and when it recedes, trim some more. A cautery can be used but that should be done by a vet and only under anesthesia.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi,all:

Occasionally Bernie's upper beak will overgrow the lower, causing an overbite situation Judy refers to as "witches nose".

Left unattended, this will bend and break off, meanwhile causing Bernie obvious discomfort and difficulty eating.

The fix is to trim the upper beak with a special nail shears (available at pet stores)
so that it "just overlaps" the lower beak. We
do this under very controlled conditions and with magnification. We make two 45 degree
minor cuts to form the new tip. Done deal. It looks and works fine, and Bernie is a happy camper!

Dr. Marx, in his handy little book, describes an injury situation where a pigeon's upper beak appeared to be totally severed. Upon closer inspection, the beak was found to be folded down into the mouth--obviously from an impact with a window or something. 

The fix: Open the mouth and carefully pry the beak back into its original position. The bird had to be hand or tube fed for many days, as the traumatized beak was very sore. Eventually, the damaged beak hardened back into its original position and the damaged area was incrementally trimmed away (see above) over time.

On one occasion, while trimming a very naughty parrot's (named Pogo) nails, Judy hit a bleeder. I mean this sucker was REALLY bleeding! It was, of course, a Saturday night...

None of the usual remedies worked.

The fix--one drop of Super Glue. I pressed tightly against the nail tip (Pogo was wrapped in a towel) and very quickly switched the compress with a piece of tissue paper containing one drop of Acrylic Super Glue. The tissue paper was folded to prevent my finger from being glued to the toenail. Super Glue loves to bond skin!--it has been used for human wound repairs in Japan for years and is making its way into American medicine now. At least three Pigeon-Talk members have used it to successfully repair pigeon injuries.

Super glues are anaerobic, that is, they cure from drawing moisture from the ambient air. So the little bit of blood seepage was not a problem.

The glue set in about two minutes and the nail "cap" of glue and tissue paper was trimmed to just cover the nail tip. Pogo was put to bed. The next morning the cap was off, but the nail was no longer bleeding.

Pogo was his twitchy old self.

Note: Super Glue is a disaster waiting to happen! It should only be used with ABSOLUTE CONTROL (see post archives) over the situation!









PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm posting this in order to bring this topic to the front of the queue. I'm hoping that those of you who are interested in rehabbing a pigeon on your own, will see that it can be done and it can probably be better done by you. All of you who want to do this kind of activity are better than you think you are and you can do this.


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## robo squab (Jan 13, 2002)

Hi Fred 

WOW that was ubelievable really helpful information I am going to post something to tell everyone about this particular post it has a literal glossary of pigeon ..... well everything I really apreciate this it is unbelievable that someone would take his time to do all this I can say with certainty that you are one dedicated individual 
Thank you very much keep up the good work and as Ray always says "Pigeons and all culumbiforms forever" Robo Squab


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Robo,
Thanks so much for your very kind remarks. Just know that they are very greatly appreciated. This sounds like a great deal of information but compared to what none of us know, this is really just skimming the surface. I'll keep trying to add to this topic as things come up but there are limits to what we can do out in the "field" and just knowing some things can take us only so far.
One good example of that is a bird that I just picked up yesterday. I was coming home from work and spotted a bird sitting on the ground. He was all fluffed up and the eyes were closed. This bird had reached a point where he simply did not have the strength to fly anymore. I picked him up and brought him home. This is a young bird that has not yet reached puberty. His crop was about 25% full but we can't assume that it was food. It could be infectious tissue of some type. Canker can bypass the mouth and establish itself elsewhere in the body. It could also be that the food was laying undigeested in the crop because some type of infection was preventing that system from working. It could also be an obstruction from something he swallowed and wasn't supposed to. Perhaps the source of an infection is in the digestive tract and everything is all swollen inside preventing anything from going through. Perhaps this is a yeast infection in which case he should be on Nystatin and not Baytril.
I put a few pieces of soaked Purina Puppy Chow down him just in case what I felt in the crop was either infection or food he was unable to digest. He is on a broad spectrum antibiotic. This a race against very lttle time. The bird is very thin and whether he has been living off of his body fat or is just a young, malnourished youngster, I don't know. He is too sick to even walk over to the water cup and drink so I brought the the water cup to him and he drank profusely. 
Frankly, I don't know why he is alive. His droppings consist of water and the white nitrates but no solids so he isn't digesting anything. This morning, it is the same situation. 
If I knew what this was, there may be something else entirely different that I could do. If it is obstruction, mineral oil should go down to try to soften up whatever it is that is doing it. The problem is that if I syringe mineral oil down, the antibiotic will not be absorbed. It will simply come out the other end.
So I opted to go down one road and not the other taking the chance that this is an infection of some type. I really don't think this little guy will make it but as long as he is alive, there is always that possibility that he may be able to fight out of it. 
So just knowing some things does not really help all the time. If I had the money to take him to my vet, blood tests would be needed for a white cell count. Perhaps a barium series would be able to show what is down there. He is so weak, he couldn't tolerate that kind of handling anyway.
"A little knowledege is a dangerous thing" could not be truer in this instance. I simply don't know what the problem is with him and don't even know if giving the antibiotic is the right thing to do here. So what good is knowing at least in this situation?


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi,
This is just to update you on the pigeon that I just discussed. He died this morning and I'll never know from what. He just continued to get weaker no matter what I tried. 
If you folks ever do any rehab work with these birds, expect losses.


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Hi Fred, sorry to hear about the pigeon. I do volunteer at a wildlife rehab center, and unfortunately, there are many losses. This will be my 11th year. 

This is a great and informative string of information. I am going to have to spend more time reading through it.

Thank you.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

B. Crowe,
Thank you for that. Yes, there are many losses. We don't always get them in time. It feels pretty lousy but if we are to save any, we can't linger on it. Be well.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Putting this up again for the member needing info on string/fishing line.

All of us .. read these posts!

Terry Whatley


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

bumping up


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Bumping up for those who may be interested.

Julie


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bumped up for cate.


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## cate (Sep 8, 2003)

thanks Cynthia - I found it at last


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## mikie (Dec 22, 2003)

You are displaying excellent knowledge, except that I would not agree with you on one thing: In my mind there is no dilemma whether to help an injured or sick bird or not, to the point of my wife divorcing me. Since I was a child, I had to deal with the pigeons flying through large windows every time my mum would clean them. Some lived, some died, but I helped them all as much as I ever could. Now, as an adult, I do the same. So far, in the past two years, I only had three pigeons with the fourth one in the box on the balcony. I'll sum up my experiences shortly: In my childhood, pigeons usually got cut on the broken glass, which simply required some powder antibiotics, and some bandages for their wings to keep them from flapping uselessly. The one I remember vividly lost its left eye right in front of me. An idiot of about 12 threw a piece of brick and got him. There was no way to save the eye, but I kept it for a while till it healed and I let it go. Believe it or not, it just sat there on the railing for ten minutes before it went up, and then it made a circle above my house and went away...
Now, things are a little different. One of the pigeons I saved couldn't fly or walk, and that were the only symptoms. Looking around the net, I figured that it was either a Paramyxovirus or a Salmonella infection. All I'we done is keep it in this "pigeon box" of mine with food and water. What I use on the floor of the box is simply cat litter. It will absorb a lot of moisture whether from faeces or spilled drinking water, and on top of that I've read somewhere that bentonite (a kind of clay that is used for cat litter) is a natural antibiotic. The pigeons are messy eaters and thay are bound to eat some of that when they're pecking spilled food...
As a medication I used another alternative treatment: Colloidal silver and hydrogen peroxide solution. You can look this up on the net too. Food is usually crushed biscuits, sprinkled with a mixture of few products form Mannatech: Ambrotose, Phytaloe, Plus and Catalyst. Another is called "Transfer Factor Plus".
I know this is getting very strange as these are not your average household products. The reason that I have them is that I have a sick bird of my own: a Sulphur Crested Cockatoo with a Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease (PBFD). It is a viral disease vithout a cure, and the only "therapy" is the one that supports Immune system.
Anyway, back to pigeons. This pigeon could not eat or drink, so in the first few days I had to dip her beak into the water, and she would then drink quite a bit. (I say "she" cause I think it was a girl...) Food wise, she didn't eat for the first few days, but after that she was alright. Overall, ahe recovered in bit over a month, but only spent first ten days or so in a box. After that, she was perching on top of the cocky cage, and when she started flying around the living room, I knew it was time to let her go...
And guess what, she kept coming back! Those biscuits must be irresistible... She kept coming for a year, almost every day.
The second pigeon was similar, except not so serious. Few days and he was out. Kept coming back for a while too...
Third pigeon was as Fred described above: Scaly slimy stuff covering most of the beak and both eyes. I found him at work and brought him home in the morning (I drive a delivery truck), peeled off some of the scales off both eyes (they were fine), but this one died before I finished my shift. It was in a bad shape, difficult to breathe and probably quite old too. Fred says that this is some sort of infection, but I came across a description of some mites that burrow into the skin and cause these scales to grow on the top and inside the beak and nasal cavity. Either way, not nice.
And this last patient is doing allright so far. It's drinking water, but not eating yet (day two). I may have to hand feed it with something semi-liquid...

And sorry for the long post, people. As I've mentioned, my wife is not very friendly to anthing without a wallet, and it is a pleasure and very rewarding and encouraging to find likeminded people.

I am glad that you exist...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello Mikie, and welcome to pigeons.com. It is always nice to have new members from Australia! Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

Fred has treated literally hundreds of pigeons, picking up three or more a week, so we tend to rely on him heavily for diagnosis and prescription. Believe me he knows his stuff and very rarely loses a bird.

When I first joined I had a desire to help pigeons but very little knowledge or resources. I had managed to nurse five pigeons through PMV but had lost a number of pigeons that were just generally ill even though I had taken them to the vet. Since then I have realised that almost all the pigeons that I have picked up have suffered from injury or the most common illnesses and that it is wisest to stock up with medication for those. I am lucky enough to have another very experienced member in the UK to consult with who has also helped me build up a stock of medications:

Canker is a cheesy slimy growth that blocks the mouth, throat, nostrils etc. The treatment that you can have to hand for that is Spartrix, but metronidazoile is more effective in the long term.

Coccidiosis is the most common form of digestive illness, I keep appertex for that.

I have Baytril on hand to treat respiratory infections and salmonellosis, although that is one thing I have never come across.

Bicarbonate of Soda for slow crop (empty crop, 1/4 teaspoon in one ounce of water to flush through, fasting until third day then slow but gradual build up of food).

I also have a bag of saline to flush wounds and abscesses out with. I have heard that it can be obtained as a sterile spray.

As far as I know none of the pigeons that I have rescued suffered from worms, but I have treated them anyway!

Cynthia

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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2003)

Fred, sorry about that poor bird. 

It's good to have all this in one place. I'm going to copy and print it.

Your information is extremely valuable - too valuable to be part of a forum, where it flows along til it's not visible.

It should be posted on Pigeons.com so it can be accessed later.

Al

[This message has been edited by AlStreit (edited December 22, 2003).]


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Al, this is one post that gets bumped up regularly! As you say there is too much information in it for it to be allowed to sink into oblivion.

Cynthia


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## crackedcorn (Mar 26, 2002)

Well I'm glad I found this.

>bump<


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Is it possible to make this whole topic, with 50 some posts in a printable format? Anyone know? I'd like to keep this as a referrence.. Treesa


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Fred--I have three birds with different histories. The last acquisition used a night roost close to the ground so I observed her on my way home. I noticed at one point there were too many droppings so I knew she was spending day time on the night roost and I could see droppings on her vent. I assumed some kind of gastroenteritous and I was determined to trap her. I got her one rainy night with a large fishing net. I put her in a large quarantine box with a screen so she could see me, my birds and my second story room and started her on 5 days of Aureomycin-Sulmet. I decided to give her a bath on the second day even with the trauma that induces. I found she was severely impacted with string--many knots of fine thread nearly to the bone. And these wounds were encased with droppongs. Still she had swelling but no apparent infection. I figured out the magnifying glass, needle and razor blade technique to get every string loose. I thought I did because she started walking on one leg the next day and limping on the second leg the following day. I have acces to racing pigeon quality diet and she put on weight, beautiful feathers, standing tall, and is full of piss and vinegar. She mated with my original bird that I raised from about one week old (I replaced with wooden eggs, but that is another problem). Yesturday, after 1 month, she couldn't stand up at all. She has at least one toe on each foot she might lose--they are healthy red on the tips but are whitening up at the slice. I conducted exploratory surgury but I could find no more string. I could have missed it and it probably doesn't mattter by now. The bad toes are not dead since she is in pain. Should I just wait it out or is there anything I can do?


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## Fred (May 10, 2003)

"I have three birds with different histories. The last acquisition used a night roost close to the ground so I observed her on my way home. I noticed at one point there were too many droppings so I knew she was spending day time on the night roost and I could see droppings on her vent. I assumed some kind of gastroenteritous and I was determined to trap her. I got her one rainy night with a large fishing net. I put her in a large quarantine box with a screen so she could see me, my birds and my second story room and started her on 5 days of Aureomycin-Sulmet. I decided to give her a bath on the second day even with the trauma that induces."

Impaction could have been a result of bad hygiene brought about by a dirty roost. It could also be due to a kidney disorder. Regardless of the cause of the impaction, it's called pasting of the vent. I'm glad you put her on an antibiotic. Can you tell me if the droppings are back to normal now?
Just to make sure, can you look at the vent area and see if there are any sores on or around it? Is she re-pasting?

"I found she was severely impacted with string--many knots of fine thread nearly to the bone. And these wounds were encased with droppongs. Still she had swelling but no apparent infection. I figured out the magnifying glass, needle and razor blade technique to get every string loose. I thought I did because she started walking on one leg the next day and limping on the second leg the following day. I have acces to racing pigeon quality diet and she put on weight, beautiful feathers, standing tall, and is full of piss and vinegar. She mated with my original bird that I raised from about one week old (I replaced with wooden eggs, but that is another problem). Yesturday, after 1 month, she couldn't stand up at all. She has at least one toe on each foot she might lose--they are healthy red on the tips but are whitening up at the slice. I conducted exploratory surgury but I could find no more string. I could have missed it and it probably doesn't mattter by now. The bad toes are not dead since she is in pain. Should I just wait it out or is there anything I can do?"

Her inability to stand may not have anything to do with the toes. They usually stand even with pain in the toes. This could be a direct result of a bacterial infection that has not been knocked out of the system even though you used an antibiotic. Can you start the Aureomycin-Sulmet again but this time, put her on a 10-12 day course. Five days may not have been enough. Can you add calcium to her diet? Sometimes the calcium gets sucked right out of their legs to make up for what they are not getting in their diet.
It is so dangerous to try to diagnose over the web but my first guess is bacterial infection.


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Dano
Have you tried pricking the end of the toes with a pin to see if there is still an active blood supply?
Toes which are dying tend to go black and feel very dry and brittle.
When I have these kind of injuries to deal with I use amoxycillin and it is usually a three week course. Dose can vary with severity of injuries and infection. 5 days is certainly not emough in this instance. However, you seem to be doing a very good job so far. Well done to you.


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## Fred (May 10, 2003)

dano7,
I forgot to mention anything about the pain in the toes. If the string is gone, there is nothing else to be done about it. It's possible that the toes will die and fall off on their own but if these are live toes, nothing can be done about the pain. Keep the areas clean and dry. These injuries are best left to the open air to heal. That pain can last for a very long time.
The antibiotic you used should be able to take care of any infection that might be there.


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Thanks to both of you for the prompt reply. I think the problem is just local to the toes in the sense that she and her mate plus a big white king pigeon I have are all clean birds. 

She will be laying again soon and I will replace with wooden eggs since I have only space for two more, and those will be birds in trouble. My experience is they make babies because that is the program but afterwards they have no interest in their kids. I wish I could get them off the breeding cycle and ease her calcium debt.

You guys have more experience than me but just in case, there are some good medicines that might be new to you:

APC Moxidectin: Kills roundworms, hairworms, and external bloodsucking parasites. Better than Ivermectin with a high safety margin.

APC Turbosole: Canker--Safe. It is used in water but the safety margin allows me to apply both of these products to seed (with a little olive oil and cod liver oil) to medicate the 30 bird flock down the street. That is a beautiful flock of birds unlike the poor little hoards in downtown SF. 

Ecto Spray by Oropharma: pump spray for external parasites. Mild ingredients and permethrin. 

thanks again


> Originally posted by Fred:
> *dano7,
> I forgot to mention anything about the pain in the toes. If the string is gone, there is nothing else to be done about it. It's possible that the toes will die and fall off on their own but if these are live toes, nothing can be done about the pain. Keep the areas clean and dry. These injuries are best left to the open air to heal. That pain can last for a very long time.
> The antibiotic you used should be able to take care of any infection that might be there.
> ...


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## Fred (May 10, 2003)

Dano,
I should have my head examined. Aureomycin is a tetracycline. If you give that drug, don't give any calcium. Sorry about that.

------------------
Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace.
Albert Schweitzer (1875 - 1965


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Thanks again Fred. I finished the antibiotics and then gave her a vegetable food supplement I use that contains probiotics as well as vitamins, minerals and antioxidants. Also I gave her good multi mixture of grit which she really got onto after laying.



> Originally posted by Fred:
> *Dano,
> I should have my head examined. Aureomycin is a tetracycline. If you give that drug, don't give any calcium. Sorry about that.
> 
> *


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just a thought, but you said that she will soon be laying again. Are you certain that she hasn't become egg bound?

About the feet, I had one with very bad string damage, he had all the string removed under anaesthetic and the feet stabilised. Then he knocked his foot and it becaame infected and turned black very quickly and eventually the femoral artery severed. he would have died if he had not been literally in Nooti's hands at the time. So keep a close eye on those feet!

Cynthia


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

"give them a softgel garlic capsule once a day and that will kill any parasites,"
I think you might have a problem getting rid of the syngamus trachea parasite or systemic flukes with the garlic capsules, however, I can see that they may work with intestinal parasites.
I like garlic myself, can eat quite a lot, hope it's keeping me free of parasites!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think that Teresa said that garlic took care of ecto parasites. Are they the ones that live on the host rather than in the host? I know that garlic is good for keeping dogs free of fleas.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello again,

Love everything I have been reading on this topic,

If I might add:

Garlic capsules (the small soft gels), one a day, will really help get rid of any endo parasites. Here is the thing: when you are treating a disease and the bird also has endoparasites you want to get rid of, you don't have to use a chemical. Garlic will get rid of the internal parasites, and allow the bird to heal quicker on the drug you are using to treat main problem. It really compromises their immune response when you treat with chemicals as well as the antibiotics at once. 

When your'e dealing with a sick bird you really want to get results as quick as possible. 

Garlic is a plus! Besides clearing out endoparasites, the other benefits of using garlic is that it has the side effect of cleaning the blood, promoting healthy feathers, and white wattle, and long term benefits seem to leave the bird with a stronger immune system. 

My rehabber also used it on a squirrel, and got rid of a tape worm!

My pigeon "Bear" took about 1 month to rehab his broken leg. (He must have gotten a total of 30 and more garlic capsules) But I noticed his feathering and his constitution is unbelievable.He moulted during this time and he looks better and stronger than before he broke his leg! 
Treesa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Okay, you have convinced me. All my pets (dogs, cats and pigeons) will have some garlic capsules.

Cynthia


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Hi Nooti

I just read something interesting about garlic. The antibactia is made by combining the alliin and an enzyme which are separated by cell walls in garlic. When a bacteria breaks the garlic cell wall, the allin and it's enzyme combine to make the allicin that the thiosulphonates that do the work of killing the offensive bacteria. The pungent smell when you crush garlic is the reaction and there is 1:1 enzyme and alliin so the reaction is intense. Allicin does not last long so powders and oils aren't supposed to be effective. I crush some in my birds water when they are due for a drink. Here is the link: 
http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/17/garlic_infections.htm 

dano



> Originally posted by Nooti:
> *"give them a softgel garlic capsule once a day and that will kill any parasites,"
> I think you might have a problem getting rid of the syngamus trachea parasite or systemic flukes with the garlic capsules, however, I can see that they may work with intestinal parasites.
> I like garlic myself, can eat quite a lot, hope it's keeping me free of parasites! *


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have experimented with all kinds of garlic. I put crushed garlic in my birds water every few weeks for general maintenance, but it doesn't seem to last like the long term use of the caps. After using the gel caps I am thoroughly convinced it works! 

I just put one down their throat each day and rub their neck gently. The bad breath is overwhelming at first, but it goes away!

Since it purifies the blood, you might even try to use it for the nuero parasites, and see if that works. You have nothing to lose, but alot to gain.

My rehabber is also a certified herbologist, and she uses it all the time, as I do. 

Treesa


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