# For you eyesign experts



## Kastle Loft

I know next to nothing about eye sign. I've been playing around with a new lens and shooting some of the eyes of my birds just to see how close I can get. 

In this photo I noticed some what looked like granules or grains around the pupil. Anyone care to explain that for me? Or care to give me an analysis of this eye? I'm curious. Those grains are not readily evident in most of the other eyes I photographed today.

Thanks

A somewhat larger version can be seen here.


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## MaryOfExeter

The only thing I can tell you, is that to me, eyesign is total BS.  But that is one pretty eye! No clue what those granules are. I've never noticed anything like that before.


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## Melsloft

what you see is inside the pupil the C/A this bird has good sign of beads and tears an excellent sign of a good breeder ,, also has a good thick C/A inside and some nice speed lines on the C/C thi sbird has a good 3/D eye and should be an excellent breeder!


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## Melsloft

if teh other birds didnt have this feature I can attest they are not going to be anywaheer near in breeding quality to this cock I believe? You need to carefully select a mate which will balance his strenths for best mating!


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## Crazy Pete

Can you also get a video of the eye? I'm with Becky it's all BS, but the eye sign people look for more than just the eye. There should be a twitch that can not be seen with out a lens, and the eye should move in the socket. My mentor would love that eye.
Dave


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## Nkloft

What kinda camera Did u use that u got a pretty clear picture of the eye. I tried my phone's camera which is 8 megapixel but its not working


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## Kastle Loft

Melsloft said:


> if teh other birds didnt have this feature I can attest they are not going to be anywaheer near in breeding quality to this cock I believe? You need to carefully select a mate which will balance his strenths for best mating!


Thanks for that info, Mel. I'll study up on that some more. I guess I'd consider myself an "agnostic" when it comes to eye sign. I don't have enough experience to have personal evidence that it is an accurate way to evaluate, but I certainly can't say it is ineffective, either. I'm the type that will research, learn, listen, and then decide for myself.

I had one other cockbird that had some of those 'grains' or little dots of pigment, but not as pronounced as the first photo I posted. 

As I practice shooting some more of these, I'll post some hens and you guys can tell me which would be a good mate for him. I've already picked one out based on family histories but we'll see if the match is made in their eyes 

Here is another one of my cockbirds that my mentor and others have told me has a good eye. But he doesn't have any of those grains or dots that I was asking about originally.


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## Kastle Loft

Crazy Pete said:


> Can you also get a video of the eye? I'm with Becky it's all BS, but the eye sign people look for more than just the eye. There should be a twitch that can not be seen with out a lens, and the eye should move in the socket. My mentor would love that eye.
> Dave


Whew, that would be tough. I see another photo challenge in my future! I don't think I could get that close and have solid video. Too much movement. I could certainly get close enough to see how the eye moves, though. Just not with that kind of detail. hmmmm.


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## Kastle Loft

Bears135 said:


> What kinda camera Did u use that u got a pretty clear picture of the eye. I tried my phone's camera which is 8 megapixel but its not working


It's not the megapixels that matter. It's the lens. I don't know a camera phone out there that will have the necessary focusing distance that would get you that close. There are a lot of decent point and shoots out there with good macro ability - I'd hazard a guess that point and shoots make up the majority of the eye sign photos you see these days because of their bang-for-the-buck.

The pro equipment is very expensive. I have two macro lenses for my Canon 5D Mark II. One lens costs $500 and the other one, which I was using for the photos in this post, costs over $1000. And that's just for the lens! (btw, I don't buy these lenses just for pigeons - I have them for my real job)

But what I'm trying to do is get something that is better than what the point and shoots can do - and honestly I'm not sure that the $1000 lens gives that much more detail for the experts to analyze. However, because I don't have to crop the photo, those original files are over 60mb in size and can be zoomed into quite a lot without losing resolution.


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## re lee

Back in the day when people followed the eye sighn The grade of both of the shown eyes i blioeve would have been a number NINE eye. as the number nine eye was a wide full circle searated eye. Grades then were number 1 through number 10. And a number five eye had to be looked at more as it was full circle but a little more narrow in the circle. No days some still look at the eye and when the eye is of a more grainy graveley eye It is thought the bird is a better bird. This has been done by comparing top world class birds eyes over the the years. It i believe is thought the bird has a greater depth of vision. Myth or not The eye sighn has been followed by many over the many years of pigeon keeping.


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## 2y4life

MaryOfExeter said:


> The only thing I can tell you, is that to me, eyesign is total BS.  But that is one pretty eye! No clue what those granules are. I've never noticed anything like that before.


You are right Becky


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## Crazy Pete

If eye sign really worked the eyesign expert's would be winning all the races. LMAO


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## re lee

Crazy Pete said:


> If eye sign really worked the eyesign expert's would be winning all the races. LMAO


True. But there have been several books written about it. THE tail sign is a better sign. As it is hard to dispute. As you watch the bird drop through the trap the last thing you see is the tail.. BUT looking at the eye does give an idea on health .


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## Crazy Pete

I went to a young bird auction with my mentor and he kept telling me about this little twitch you can only see with a eye sign loop. So we started with the last place bird, from a one loft race, no twitch. He says they should twitch over 40 times a min, by the time we got to the middle of the pack we started to see some, and by the time we got to the first place bird it was over 40 time a min.
I still maintain they only need 2 eye's but, when I went into my loft my best birds had it and so did my best breeders. And then there is my AU Champion hen she has a nice eye but very little twitch and she is a great breeder.
Dave


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## 2y4life

There's no such thing as eye sign. Humans don't have it nor does any other animal in the animal kingdom. Only in pigeons do you see people so caught up in these "theories" that have absolutely no basis. Eyes only help with sight...nothing else. There's a good article about eye sign. It states that the whole eye sign thing is a load of bull. A great read. 

Anyhow, a close shot of pigeons eyes are really cool to see; other than that, they do very little for me. And tail sign is bogus too, imo. You can't "look" at a animal and claim it is a champion. Champions can only prove their worth during competition, not in the show cage...unless you've got a show champion.


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## Crazy Pete

As you watch the bird drop through the trap the last thing you see is the tail. If that bird just won the race that is the best tail sign you can get.

2y4life you have a closed mind, how do you tell if a bird is any good, or if it is in shape for a race or not.
Dave


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## 2y4life

Crazy Pete said:


> As you watch the bird drop through the trap the last thing you see is the tail. If that bird just won the race that is the best tail sign you can get.
> 
> 2y4life you have a closed mind, how do you tell if a bird is any good, or if it is in shape for a race or not.
> Dave


Sorry Crazy Pete aka Crazy Dave, I don't have a closed mind. I have no idea where you got that from. Is it because I don't believe in eye sign? I get that you are being sarcastic about the tail sign but what I meant was like the shape of a tail, how long the feathers are and what not. 

I can tell how good a bird is based on how good it does in a race. I can tell a bird is in shape by holding it in my hand, feeling the muscles, and looking at the feather quality. Most importantly, a bird must be flown consistently to be in shape. 

Eye sign cannot tell you if a bird is good or not. Eye sign cannot tell you if a bird is in shape for a race or not. Correlation is not causation.


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## rpalmer

2y4life said:


> Eye sign cannot tell you if a bird is in shape for a race or not. Correlation is not causation.


The intensity of color represents the birds fat reserves. If your birds eye color seems to fade it is because it's fat reserves are low or depleted. But other than judging a birds overall fitness, I do not believe in eye sign or it's theories. That being said, I do like looking at expertly taken photos of pigeons eyes.


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## 2y4life

rpalmer said:


> The intensity of color represents the birds fat reserves. If your birds eye color seems to fade it is because it's fat reserves are low or depleted. But other than judging a birds overall fitness, I do not believe in eye sign or it's theories. That being said, I do like looking at expertly taken photos of pigeons eyes.


Me too. I like looking at the well taken pictures as they are cool to look at. Other than that, I put little to no stock in them.

Below is one of the best, most accurate, and SCIENTIFIC article ever written about the so-called Eye-Sign Theory. 

*Eye Sign: Two Required for Maximum Performance*
http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm


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## re lee

Look back even 30 years eys sign was still a big deal to several. And they had great birds. For pigeon keeping many will have there methods heck there are some pewople who claim they can tell from the size and shape of an egg if the bird will be a cock or hen when it hatches. Perhaps they can perhaps they can not. Tight tail tight vent. Apple body ect Its mans need to understand what they like in there birds. But on a race day the bird tell all. Man only strived to help through selection. Must have been doing something right with the different ideas as the birds left to just there own breeding Would have reverted back to the wild type by now.


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## Matt Bell

The pupil movement and such that has been described here sounds a lot like HLREO theory of the late Brad LaVerne, there is a book out written by him on this theory. Its a great read, not sure I believe it all but there is definitely some interesting stuff in it. He knew more about pigeons than most of us combined on this forum, lol.


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## orock

I know I'm getting away from the subject I here alot of people talking about tight vents what are your thoughts about that.


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## Alamo

Body......Conformation.......Balance........Wing.......Feather.......Eyesign.......Expression......

These Are The Tools You Should Use About A Pigeon "BEFORE" !!!!...You Either Purchase/breed/race The Bird......

If Anyone Thinks ANY The Above 7 Points Is Invalid,in Trying To Determine If A Pigeon Is Just Plain Good,or, Exceptional,they are Not Using His/her Head.....All The Above Factors Should Be Used......Alamo


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## Kastle Loft

Alamo said:


> Body......Conformation.......Balance........Wing.......Feather.......Eyesign.......Expression......
> 
> These Are The Tools You Should Use About A Pigeon "BEFORE" !!!!...You Either Purchase/breed/race The Bird......
> 
> If Anyone Thinks ANY The Above 7 Points Is Invalid,in Trying To Determine If A Pigeon Is Just Plain Good,or, Exceptional,they are Not Using His/her Head.....All The Above Factors Should Be Used......Alamo


Well I didn't mean to rehash the old debate, but I guess that can o' worms has been opened again 

I just wanted to know what those dots/grains meant from the perspective of the eye sign enthusiasts lol

Personally I'm with Alamo at this point. The eyes are part of the package, but pretty low down the list for me. I'm happy for my birds to have high-grading eyes, though. But I wouldn't know good from bad at this point.

Here's another one of my cockbirds, fwiw. I ran out of daylight when I got to him, so his pupil isn't as constricted as I'd like. I'm still figuring out the best way to light these.


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## Alamo

Just to add some FUN to this.....Many years ago,A baby ferel pigeon trapped into my loft...He/she was still squeaking....Very young bird...I put a red plastic band on this little bird for one reason....It had one of the BEST eyes I have ever seen....The pigeon had NO body,NO feather,NO expression,NO NOTHING,but a GREAT EYE....How could this happen,you ask ??? It`s so simple,but it even took me awhile to get the answer...The ONLY thing the wild pigeons breed for is EYESIGN....Alamo,your crazy....I might just be that...But,WITHOUT great eyes,the wild pigeons CANNOT find food...If they can`t find food,they are dead...Only the birds with great eyes,can spot a bread crumb from 200 feet up or higher while flying....So there is your answer...They breed for EYESIGN,without even knowing what eyesign is....But,that`s the only POINT out of the SEVEN I mentioned above,that MATTERS to them....Alamo


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## MaryOfExeter

I like the HLREO theory.


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## 2y4life

Here's what Alan Bieche has stated numerous times about eye sign:

*"To date I have yet to find a so called eye sign expert that has a fantastic race record. I like to see a strong eye myself but only use the eye as one of my 6 Common Denominators tools."*

The HLREO, to me, holds a bit more weight than just the overall make up of a bird's eye.


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## hillfamilyloft

I have one simple theory, If you breed using race record your birds will race well. If you breed for any other physical trait, you will get birds that have that trait. Breed for eyes, good looking eyes. Breed for vents, good vents. Breed for one pin tail, one pin tails etc. Birds that win have the physical and mental traits of champions. That is what you want. Breed winners to winners. Everything else is theory.


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## Crazy Pete

2y4life said:


> Me too. I like looking at the well taken pictures as they are cool to look at. Other than that, I put little to no stock in them.
> 
> Below is one of the best, most accurate, and SCIENTIFIC article ever written about the so-called Eye-Sign Theory.
> 
> *Eye Sign: Two Required for Maximum Performance*
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm


I red the article and it is not a scientific article at all. Silvio is full of hot air, he rights just so he can read all his jiberish.
Dave


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## re lee

Breeding winners to winners does not get winners often. Breeding the right bird to the right bird gets the job done better. A loft does not have all winners to begin with. And it is a well known fact Top lofts can produce an outstanding bird. BUT it may be ten or more years before the same loft produce a bird as good or better . Often grandchildren off a top bird can produce future winners as to say. And with so many small clubs in the U S it becomes hard to say who has the better birds As the race level of competing verys. one loft race while fine are a pot luck entry You send a bird that may be a better bird Or it may turn out to be the worst bird you raise that year. Selecting a good team of birds is an art that takes time to learn. Not the old fly every bird you have as that to is pot luck racing. The idea of what you like in a pigeon shows as you race if that works for you then good. Here to many young birds are over raced burned out as young birds A good old bird racer would not over race the young birds. But that is a different story. Eye sign means what it means to people that believe it and those that dont have another area of the pigeon they like to breed from. I do not like some of the to inbred small birds that are starting to look like ferals. but seems others do. As some inbreed so tight on birds they buy trying to reproduce the past but have no good key to do so with. We have gone way of subject here With the start being a picture and question about the eye. I just remember some of the old old timers saying never cross some breed liner bird that carry the different eye. THAT reason was because the birds were built from a whole different family group line when racing pigeons developed. The orginal English line and the orginal belgium line. that made some sence But that to has gone the way side.


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## hillfamilyloft

Winner to Winner in my eyes is not as simple as breeding two birds that win. It is based on breeding from breeders that raise winners, introducing winning and top 10% consistent birds into the loft. I use that term loosely to mean breeding birds based on performance and ability to not only fly but breed and not phenotype. I base my success on how many pairs breed winners, top 10s, and top 10% birds. I use statistics as a system. Select using the race sheet. Put yourself in a position to breed birds that have produced or been top on the sheet. Take the question marks out of the mix. The best in the world put their best birds with others best birds. These guys are not only the guys to beet but those with birds that others desire. In Belgium there is not even a word for eye sign. Funny how we will emulate a guys 6 golden secrets, but denounce a successful flier who has one simple philosophy. Stock your loft with winners. Yes you are correct that a winner bred with a winner do not always produce a winner, but give me two winners any day over hogwash and see who wins.


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## Jimhalekw

Eyesign is the momenta I spend face to face with each of my birds sharing breath. I find very little beauty as relaxing to my soal, space, oceans, natural Earth, and a pigeons eye. Beautiful shots! Jim


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## hillfamilyloft

Case in point. Mark, "Ace in the Hole" sent me a brother and sister to breed from this year. Both had wins and top 10s as young birds. I stocked the hen with Kahuna who bred my futurity winner, and the cock with a daughter of Kahuna. They raised six birds that were raced. Three had top 10 finishes at 2nd, 3rd and 8th, Four had top 10% finishes and scored points. Five had top 20% finishes. The only bird that did not score only raced three races due to bird limits. All six are still racing. These results were out of two different lofts. Just a note: the brother and sister team are from a loft that breeds on performance. I do not know why people fight the notion that top birds will breed top birds. If you are not winning or breeding good birds, its simple you need better birds not eye sign theories. Excuses breed theories, winners breed winners.


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## re lee

hillfamilyloft said:


> Winner to Winner in my eyes is not as simple as breeding two birds that win. It is based on breeding from breeders that raise winners, introducing winning and top 10% consistent birds into the loft. I use that term loosely to mean breeding birds based on performance and ability to not only fly but breed and not phenotype. I base my success on how many pairs breed winners, top 10s, and top 10% birds. I use statistics as a system. Select using the race sheet. Put yourself in a position to breed birds that have produced or been top on the sheet. Take the question marks out of the mix. The best in the world put their best birds with others best birds. These guys are not only the guys to beet but those with birds that others desire. In Belgium there is not even a word for eye sign. Funny how we will emulate a guys 6 golden secrets, but denounce a successful flier who has one simple philosophy. Stock your loft with winners. Yes you are correct that a winner bred with a winner do not always produce a winner, but give me two winners any day over hogwash and see who wins.


Using this concept As what you call a winner Is a very correct method to move the birds foward. As the top 10 percent come the better birds. I used the word USEABLE as a bird may not have won but is a bird that is useable to a solid program. But all the same your idea is the idea that works for anybody that wants to improve. And birds used like you just said aRE birds that will produce the better birds.


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## Melsloft

there is no BS in eye sign folks,, you either know what your looking for and doing or you don't! those who don't will say its BS,, yes you are looking for the reflex in the pupil the inner muscles of the pupil ! the twitch is a good sign but it better have the WHOLE package in ther eye ! if it was BS we wouldnt have bred 15 PLUS X 1st place winners this year!!!


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## Melsloft

this is NOT a great eyesign! pupil is to large teh inner c/a is weak! as a breeder don't waste your ti,,, if you want to learn MORE the REAL tools in eyesign go to my mentors site www.eyesign.com ALSO when ur taking eye shots do it at full sun with the sun over your left shoulder and use the LEFT eye!


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## Melsloft

Crazy Pete said:


> As you watch the bird drop through the trap the last thing you see is the tail. If that bird just won the race that is the best tail sign you can get.
> 
> 2y4life you have a closed mind, how do you tell if a bird is any good, or if it is in shape for a race or not.
> Dave


YOU CAN TELL IF A BIRD WILL BE A GOOD RACER/BREEDER OR NOT FROM THE NEST!!!!!!!! IF YOUR WAITING FOR THe TAIL END YOUR BEHEIND THe BOAT,,, go to WWW,EYESIGN101.com to LEARN MORE!


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## Melsloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> I have one simple theory, If you breed using race record your birds will race well. If you breed for any other physical trait, you will get birds that have that trait. Breed for eyes, good looking eyes. Breed for vents, good vents. Breed for one pin tail, one pin tails etc. Birds that win have the physical and mental traits of champions. That is what you want. Breed winners to winners. Everything else is theory.


ANOTHER MYTH MANY OF YOU FOLLOW IS BREEDING WINNER TO WINNER !!!!! WANT TO RUIN A FAMILY OF BIRDS FOLLOW THAT RULE OF THUMB!!!! IF YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE GO TO WWW.eyesign101.com


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## Melsloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> I have one simple theory, If you breed using race record your birds will race well. If you breed for any other physical trait, you will get birds that have that trait. Breed for eyes, good looking eyes. Breed for vents, good vents. Breed for one pin tail, one pin tails etc. Birds that win have the physical and mental traits of champions. That is what you want. Breed winners to winners. Everything else is theory.


IF YOU THINK THe MAGIC PILL IS WINNER TO WINNER THEN EVERYONE WOULD BE A WINNER!!! TAKES MORE THAN THAT MY FRIEND  IF U USE EYESIGN PROPERLY YOU WILL BE ON THe WWAY TO BREEDING MORE WINNERS THAN EVER WWW.EYESIGN101.com


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## hillfamilyloft

Melsloft said:


> ANOTHER MYTH MANY OF YOU FOLLOW IS BREEDING WINNER TO WINNER !!!!! WANT TO RUIN A FAMILY OF BIRDS FOLLOW THAT RULE OF THUMB!!!! IF YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE GO TO WWW.eyesign101.com


I think I will stick with my rule of thumb. I fear if I brought a few eye sign birds in would have more of a chance to ruin my family then one of my best birds off my race team. Maybe within a family some of the other methods might have merit like say the throat theory or wing theory or maybe even eye sign, but to bring an unproven eye-sign bird into a proven family is in my opinion non-productive. Much rather bring in a bird that has raced well that is off a bird that raced well. If it has a cool eye more power to him. To base selection only off of non-race related traits makes no sense. Ganus and the like, do not put in their pedigrees that the bird has a nice eye, or a one-pin tail because it really means anything, he does it to sell birds to the eye sign guys. I would much rather see race results and breeding results.


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## calzephyr

Melsloft said:


> this is NOT a great eyesign! pupil is to large teh inner c/a is weak! as a breeder don't waste your ti,,, if you want to learn MORE the REAL tools in eyesign go to my mentors site www.eyesign.com ALSO when ur taking eye shots do it at full sun with the sun over your left shoulder and use the LEFT eye!


Are you kidding me???... "sun over the left shoulder and use the left eye"??? Come on folks let's get real!

Why don't you just say "spin around three times, spit on your right hand, and say 'abra-ca-dabra' before you take the picture. 

Eyesign has no basis is science, and has never been proven by independent testing to work in any way, shape or form. Period.


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## ace in the hole

I think when they have two eyes that a good sign.


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## Melsloft

calzephyr said:


> Are you kidding me???... "sun over the left shoulder and use the left eye"??? Come on folks let's get real!
> 
> Why don't you just say "spin around three times, spit on your right hand, and say 'abra-ca-dabra' before you take the picture.
> 
> Eyesign has no basis is science, and has never been proven by independent testing to work in any way, shape or form. Period.




pls don't make these comments if you cant back it up,, eyesign is not a SCIENCE its a FACT! here is the correct link,, 
http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm


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## Melsloft

calzephyr said:


> Are you kidding me???... "sun over the left shoulder and use the left eye"??? Come on folks let's get real!
> 
> Why don't you just say "spin around three times, spit on your right hand, and say 'abra-ca-dabra' before you take the picture.
> 
> Eyesign has no basis is science, and has never been proven by independent testing to work in any way, shape or form. Period.


hey fine believe what you do why would I want to educate the UNBELIEVERS why improve your results,,,,, THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THIS PEOPLE KEEP THE NARROW BLINDERS ON,,, I'm sure you also just let the cocks and hens loose and let themselves pair up also right LOL ,,,, I'll just continue doing what I do working with eyesign last year over 10 X 1st this year over 15 X 1st ,,,,,, BY POSITIONING THE SUN OVER YOUR LEFT SHOULDER YOU GET THe MOST AMOUNT OF SUNLITE COMING INTO THe EYE SO THAT YOU CAN TAKE THe BEST PIC POISSIBLE SO THAT THE EDUCATED EYESIGN EXpERTS CAN EVALUATE THEM!!!!


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## Shadybug Lofts

Instead of bitcxxxxing about weather you can tell if a bird is good or not by the eye, how about someone tell what in the eye sign tells you what. I have been looking at eye's the past couple days and every one looks different. I looked at one of the catalogs that have the eye pic with all these winning birds and they all look different to me. I myself don't believe its anything more than a way for some people to sell there birds for outrages prices. People who say they know about eye sign selling to people who no nothing about it.


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## Melsloft

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Instead of bitcxxxxing about weather you can tell if a bird is good or not by the eye, how about someone tell what in the eye sign tells you what. I have been looking at eye's the past couple days and every one looks different. I looked at one of the catalogs that have the eye pic with all these winning birds and they all look different to me. I myself don't believe its anything more than a way for some people to sell there birds for outrages prices. People who say they know about eye sign selling to people who no nothing about it.


the thing is and I can tel u more if u want ALOT of the eyesign pics in auctions and catalogs are NOT good enough to judge they are only for SALES to make those who think they know naything think they are getting something good! SELLERS jknow they cant sell a bird with out a eyesign pic,, BUT it need sto be a high quality pic so you can see the details on the inside of the C/A or else its a waste! ONLY a few times will you see good eye sign pics,, PIPA has one of the best,, IF you read my intial reply to the starter of the thread I gave everyone what to look for


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## rpalmer

Melsloft said:


> hey fine believe what you do why would I want to educate the UNBELIEVERS why improve your results,,,,, THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THIS PEOPLE KEEP THE NARROW BLINDERS ON,,, I'm sure you also just let the cocks and hens loose and let themselves pair up also right LOL ,,,, I'll just continue doing what I do working with eyesign last year over 10 X 1st this year over 15 X 1st ,,,,,, BY POSITIONING THE SUN OVER YOUR LEFT SHOULDER YOU GET THe MOST AMOUNT OF SUNLITE COMING INTO THe EYE SO THAT YOU CAN TAKE THe BEST PIC POISSIBLE SO THAT THE EDUCATED EYESIGN EXpERTS CAN EVALUATE THEM!!!!


Why don't you start an eye sign thread and start it by posting those wins.


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## re lee

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Instead of bitcxxxxing about weather you can tell if a bird is good or not by the eye, how about someone tell what in the eye sign tells you what. I have been looking at eye's the past couple days and every one looks different. I looked at one of the catalogs that have the eye pic with all these winning birds and they all look different to me. I myself don't believe its anything more than a way for some people to sell there birds for outrages prices. People who say they know about eye sign selling to people who no nothing about it.


Well back in the day when eye sign was being looked at by several. The gardes of the eye was 1 through 10 ten the best. The cicle around the pupil deturmined the grade. and a grade 1 eye had no circle. The circlew color If i can remember right was Yellow. black and green. Some birds had a partial circle. Some the number nine eye had a serated circle. The number 5 eye had a full circle but was narrower then the number ten eye was. Several book were written on the eye sign theroy. Now days Eye sign a good gravel eye to several representsd a better bird As also not as many birds havegravel eye. That it a eye be it violet or orange eye Shows a graveling effct from the circle through out the eye. THEN as racing pigeons were developed. The belgium strain they used what the calumet and antwrep smerle The calumet was I believe a pealed eye bird. And to this day many show what is called the violet eye. Showing a pearling effect. Then the english based used the carrier pigeon and I am not sure BUT the base line was entirely different eye for the birds Where today you still see the orange and yellow eyed birds. The crossing of these 2 lines by several was not ment to be With the idea it would change there ablity. BUT it has been done. The idea of not continuelsy put the same eyed birds together As so not to get a fade of the violet eye Whitch you see in some lines today that shows even more pearl and a pale violet color. Just as when a person puts blue bar over blue bar for several generations you notice a more sooty blue. But when you cross the blue over to a check T pattern you see a cleaner blue.. In SHOW type birds agin the eye it carries points Shall not be mis matched or broken pupiled such as crack eyed or bladdered eye. The eye also helps you see health in the bird helps you see a strong alert bird . Over all the bird in the whole needs to be looked at where as it meets to you a good prospect for racing and breeding. Just as today some think the open backed birds are the faster flying birds. As to the birds that show good back coverage. I was brought up on a closed back for weathere protection. This allowed better shedding on birds flying in a light to heavy rain It was thought. Throat just demonstartes airway . Face it there is just several ways to look at the pigeon idea. What ever makes one move there hobby forward works.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Melsloft said:


> what you see is inside the pupil the C/A this bird has good sign of beads and tears an excellent sign of a good breeder ,, also has a good thick C/A inside and some nice speed lines on the C/C thi sbird has a good 3/D eye and should be an excellent breeder!


I don't understand a word of that. I have the worst eyes of anyone I know, but my wife says I'm a good breeder. LOL I think is all hog wash, but that's just my opinion.


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## Melsloft

re lee said:


> Well back in the day when eye sign was being looked at by several. The grades of the eye was 1 through 10 ten the best. The cicle around the pupil deturmined the grade. and a grade 1 eye had no circle. The circlew color If i can remember right was Yellow. black and green. Some birds had a partial circle. Some the number nine eye had a serated circle. The number 5 eye had a full circle but was narrower then the number ten eye was. Several book were written on the eye sign theroy. Now days Eye sign a good gravel eye to several representsd a better bird As also not as many birds have gravel eye. That it a eye be it violet or orange eye Shows a graveling effect from the circle through out the eye. THEN as racing pigeons were developed. The belgium strain they used what the calumet and antwrep smerle The calumet was I believe a pealed eye bird. And to this day many show what is called the violet eye. Showing a pearling effect. Then the english based used the carrier pigeon and I am not sure BUT the base line was entirely different eye for the birds Where today you still see the orange and yellow eyed birds. The crossing of these 2 lines by several was not ment to be With the idea it would change there ablity. BUT it has been done. The idea of not continuelsy put the same eyed birds together As so not to get a fade of the violet eye Whitch you see in some lines today that shows even more pearl and a pale violet color. Just as when a person puts blue bar over blue bar for several generations you notice a more sooty blue. But when you cross the blue over to a check T pattern you see a cleaner blue.. In SHOW type birds agin the eye it carries points Shall not be mis matched or broken pupiled such as crack eyed or bladdered eye. The eye also helps you see health in the bird helps you see a strong alert bird . Over all the bird in the whole needs to be looked at where as it meets to you a good prospect for racing and breeding. Just as today some think the open backed birds are the faster flying birds. As to the birds that show good back coverage. I was brought up on a closed back for weathere protection. This allowed better shedding on birds flying in a light to heavy rain It was thought. Throat just demonstartes airway . Face it there is just several ways to look at the pigeon idea. What ever makes one move there hobby forward works.


FORGET THE OLD DAYS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so ya'll need to be more current more techni and more open minded


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## First To Hatch

You guys must not know who Mel is. I don't know what he does but I do know hes got good birds. Hes also been pretty successful and deserves his success. Now every top racer in my club believes in eye sign when it comes to breeding, so I'd like to think theirs something to it, what? I do not know. One said don't breed same eye sign together. Another said you want to darken the eye.


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## re lee

Melsloft said:


> FORGET THE OLD DAYS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so ya'll need to be more current more techni and more open minded


I am open minded. Its just the person asked more about the EYE SIGN. So gave some idea.. NOW You know yourself there is more to breeding good birds then just eye sign. It is the whole bird. And its back ground in both breeding and related race results I know you have some good birds And thats ok. But what worked even 40 years ago works today. We did not just learn about pigeons the only new stuff is the light and dark system. And more products around to give the birds. remember some of the better birds trace back to key birds from years ago. And most good breeders of pigeons doe look at the eye when selecting the pairings of there birds. But they also look at the whole bird and where they need to try to take there breeding program. remember You have not saw 1 post where I through eyes under the bus But I kept an open mind And said at the end when the bird it going through the trap the tail sign is best. MEANING when all things come toghter then the bird has demonstrated rather its good or not. Best pair still produce more so so birds then good birds. No matter who the person is. If I raised 100 young and found 5 that were solid keepers I would be happy. That is 1 year of breeding. AND that could be from the top 15 pair of birds in the world. We can only raise a small handful of good birds a year. And the others are sell birds and out right culls. As any bird that fails your needs should fail others needs So after the keepers and the sell birds those left are the what. And some of those do and will come from the worlds best. And are still called a cull. But glad you do post here And If I could keep pigeon any more I would buy a bird or two from you. As i do like some of the old line vanreet birds And your family group are from some of the good stuff.


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## Melsloft

First To Hatch said:


> You guys must not know who Mel is. I don't know what he does but I do know hes got good birds. Hes also been pretty successful and deserves his success. Now every top racer in my club believes in eye sign when it comes to breeding, so I'd like to think theirs something to it, what? I do not know. One said don't breed same eye sign together. Another said you want to darken the eye.


tks Sho Time  yes another thing WE all need to look for for ,,is to be careful not to mate best to best or strong to strong every thing needs balance and both need to compliment each other


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## Kastle Loft

Melsloft said:


> what you see is inside the pupil the C/A this bird has good sign of beads and tears an excellent sign of a good breeder ,, also has a good thick C/A inside and some nice speed lines on the C/C thi sbird has a good 3/D eye and should be an excellent breeder!


Hey Mel, can you expand on this? Is a bead those little dots that I'm seeing around the edge of the pupil on the first photo I posted? And how does that translate in language I can understand? Are they good? Rare? Can I sell that bird for a million dollars haha 

And, from your point of view, does a photo like this give you the information that you need? As you mentioned, many of the photos on the auction sites I've found to be lacking in detail but I didn't know what I was looking at anyway so it didn't matter. I'm just trying to perfect the degree of detail I can get and do it better than the majority of what I see now. I do realize that the pupils need to be constricted more . . .










Here's the bird, fwiw. He's inbred De Dolle Jan Aarden


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## Melsloft

here is the S/T/I eye guys I was telling you about !! this pic is from my friend and mentor Myron ! he is the master and he has made people all over the world ,, he has guys all over teh globe asking for his help!
this is the single eye tube iris many will over look because its not so easy to say it has greta eye sign BUT its a deadly force in racing and breeding!


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## Kastle Loft

Melsloft said:


> here is the S/T/I eye guys I was telling you about !! this pic is from my friend and mentor Myron ! he is the master and he has made people all over the world ,, he has guys all over teh globe asking for his help!
> this is the single eye tube iris many will over look because its not so easy to say it has greta eye sign BUT its a deadly force in racing and breeding!


Sooooooo, what makes this great? Can you elaborate? I have no eye-dee-uh what S/T/I is or single eye tube iris is. You have any links to help explain?


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## Melsloft

Kastle Loft said:


> Hey Mel, can you expand on this? Is a bead those little dots that I'm seeing around the edge of the pupil on the first photo I posted? And how does that translate in language I can understand? Are they good? Rare? Can I sell that bird for a million dollars haha
> 
> And, from your point of view, does a photo like this give you the information that you need? As you mentioned, many of the photos on the auction sites I've found to be lacking in detail but I didn't know what I was looking at anyway so it didn't matter. I'm just trying to perfect the degree of detail I can get and do it better than the majority of what I see now. I do realize that the pupils need to be constricted more . . .
> 
> 
> its a nice bird and should be a great breeder for you I know shes special and I confirmed with my mentor Myron(MASTER) she has got the goods what you need to pay attention to is that sinide c/a you see that thick ghost like line? well that is target,,, all I can say is MYRON made me!!!! before I was a shot here and there eyesign has made my breeding consisternt and increased the %'s by many folds! ur birds has a beter c/a and teh beads you see actually are not the ones I was thinking of will post an example on that


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## Melsloft

Kastle Loft said:


> Sooooooo, what makes this great? Can you elaborate? I have no eye-dee-uh what S/T/I is or single eye tube iris is. You have any links to help explain?


hehe you see  a simple eye like this would be overlooked by those who have no idea or enough education


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## Crazy Pete

Will that eye have any twitch or movement to it?
Dave


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## Melsloft

Kastle Loft said:


> Sooooooo, what makes this great? Can you elaborate? I have no eye-dee-uh what S/T/I is or single eye tube iris is. You have any links to help explain?


you can go to this site 


http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm


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## Melsloft

re lee said:


> I am open minded. Its just the person asked more about the EYE SIGN. So gave some idea.. NOW You know yourself there is more to breeding good birds then just eye sign. It is the whole bird. And its back ground in both breeding and related race results I know you have some good birds And thats ok. But what worked even 40 years ago works today. We did not just learn about pigeons the only new stuff is the light and dark system. And more products around to give the birds. remember some of the better birds trace back to key birds from years ago. And most good breeders of pigeons doe look at the eye when selecting the pairings of there birds. But they also look at the whole bird and where they need to try to take there breeding program. remember You have not saw 1 post where I through eyes under the bus But I kept an open mind And said at the end when the bird it going through the trap the tail sign is best. MEANING when all things come toghter then the bird has demonstrated rather its good or not. Best pair still produce more so so birds then good birds. No matter who the person is. If I raised 100 young and found 5 that were solid keepers I would be happy. That is 1 year of breeding. AND that could be from the top 15 pair of birds in the world. We can only raise a small handful of good birds a year. And the others are sell birds and out right culls. As any bird that fails your needs should fail others needs So after the keepers and the sell birds those left are the what. And some of those do and will come from the worlds best. And are still called a cull. But glad you do post here And If I could keep pigeon any more I would buy a bird or two from you. As i do like some of the old line vanreet birds And your family group are from some of the good stuff.


tks Lee all I can say is there is to much stubborness towards eyesign and it has helped me from being a no one to a top performing performer,,, the gift of selling, breeding, buying and being able to select key birds that continue to produce TOP performances for me and others has more than quad droupled last year I had teh pleasure to breed a 3 X 1st place winner in a one loft race ,, the bird won over $21K !


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## Melsloft

Crazy Pete said:


> Will that eye have any twitch or movement to it?
> Dave


it will have a super reflex in the pupil,,, its not the twitch your looking for but more imprtantly the rapid dialation and reflex in the pupil


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## Crazy Pete

Melsloft said:


> it will have a super reflex in the pupil,,, its not the twitch your looking for but more imprtantly the rapid dialation and reflex in the pupil


Cool tomorrow is going to be a sunny day I'll go have a look at my birds.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter

ace in the hole said:


> I think when they have two eyes that a good sign.


Same here  LOL. The eyesign "expert" here that judges for the shows and goes strictly by eyesign in his loft, doesn't win squat.


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## Melsloft

MaryOfExeter said:


> Same here  LOL. The eyesign "expert" here that judges for the shows and goes strictly by eyesign in his loft, doesn't win squat.


then in my opionion he is NO EXPERT !!!!! dont be fooled bu those !!!


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## Alamo

Hi Mel....I agree with you on the eyes,but the pigeon MUST have all the other important qualities,to make it a Racer,and or breeder....In a post here,I have said that I trapped a squeaker ferel pigeon,and he had one of the best eyes I have ever seen...Unbeleivable color,etc....But the bird had NO body,feather,wing,balance,expression etc...Now I know you or anyone else in this sport would NOT breed out of this bird,just because of the eyes...You must tell the guys/girls here how much muscle,soft feather etc YOUR birds have...How about brains ?? You have to tell them what ELSE your birds have that makes them WIN....It`s not just the eyes !!! Alamo


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## Melsloft

Alamo said:


> Hi Mel....I agree with you on the eyes,but the pigeon MUST have all the other important qualities,to make it a Racer,and or breeder....In a post here,I have said that I trapped a squeaker ferel pigeon,and he had one of the best eyes I have ever seen...Unbeleivable color,etc....But the bird had NO body,feather,wing,balance,expression etc...Now I know you or anyone else in this sport would NOT breed out of this bird,just because of the eyes...You must tell the guys/girls here how much muscle,soft feather etc YOUR birds have...How about brains ?? You have to tell them what ELSE your birds have that makes them WIN....It`s not just the eyes !!! Alamo


everyone has a certain TYPE they are looking for thats what distingusishes us all family to family,,,ur ideal may not be mine or others and vise versa... BUT if you are happy with the type ur are looking for in form, body, wings and u have the RIGHT eye to go along thats all you/we need! and that is my prime point,, feral bird shave alot of homer blood in them every year huindreds of thousands are lost many actually cross onto the ferals so those bloodlines are out there its not a huge surprise,, eye and brains go toegteher eyes and condition, eyes and blood and health all these are connected,, teh S/T/I eeysign gives teh bird a better ability to race opposed to other eyesigns cause theer is a LARGER blood supply from it which is a sign that bird has an upper hand to lesser birds he/she are flying against and won't be dropping down on a race.. I'm not saying its ONLY the eye,, of course you need the WHOLE package,, but many are calling this BS and are ignorant which is fien for me also makes the competition better for me to enter races


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## fresnobirdman

Melsloft said:


> everyone has a certain TYPE they are looking for thats what distingusishes us all family to family,,,ur ideal may not be mine or others and vise versa... BUT if you are happy with the type ur are looking for in form, body, wings and u have the RIGHT eye to go along thats all you/we need! and that is my prime point,, feral bird shave alot of homer blood in them every year huindreds of thousands are lost many actually cross onto the ferals so those bloodlines are out there its not a huge surprise,, eye and brains go toegteher eyes and condition, eyes and blood and health all these are connected,, teh S/T/I eeysign gives teh bird a better ability to race opposed to other eyesigns cause theer is a LARGER blood supply from it which is a sign that bird has an upper hand to lesser birds he/she are flying against and won't be dropping down on a race.. I'm not saying its ONLY the eye,, of course you need the WHOLE package,, but many are calling this BS and are ignorant which is fien for me also makes the competition better for me to enter races


well said mel.
don't waste your time on ignorant people in life.


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## Melsloft

fresnobirdman said:


> well said mel.
> don't waste your time on ignorant people in life.


thanks buddy hows TRIPLE XXX looking


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## fresnobirdman

Melsloft said:


> thanks buddy hows TRIPLE XXX looking


umm. idk
you got the wrong guy.


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## hillfamilyloft

re lee said:


> Breeding winners to winners does not get winners often. Breeding the right bird to the right bird gets the job done better. A loft does not have all winners to begin with. And it is a well known fact Top lofts can produce an outstanding bird. BUT it may be ten or more years before the same loft produce a bird as good or better . Often grandchildren off a top bird can produce future winners as to say. And with so many small clubs in the U S it becomes hard to say who has the better birds As the race level of competing verys. one loft race while fine are a pot luck entry You send a bird that may be a better bird Or it may turn out to be the worst bird you raise that year. Selecting a good team of birds is an art that takes time to learn. Not the old fly every bird you have as that to is pot luck racing. The idea of what you like in a pigeon shows as you race if that works for you then good. Here to many young birds are over raced burned out as young birds A good old bird racer would not over race the young birds. But that is a different story. Eye sign means what it means to people that believe it and those that dont have another area of the pigeon they like to breed from. I do not like some of the to inbred small birds that are starting to look like ferals. but seems others do. As some inbreed so tight on birds they buy trying to reproduce the past but have no good key to do so with. We have gone way of subject here With the start being a picture and question about the eye. I just remember some of the old old timers saying never cross some breed liner bird that carry the different eye. THAT reason was because the birds were built from a whole different family group line when racing pigeons developed. The orginal English line and the orginal belgium line. that made some sence But that to has gone the way side.


re lee you make a good point here, but for my argument about basing your loft on performance (fact) and not theory can pay dividends. I am assessing my Albuquerque race teams on what I want to bring into the loft. this year I plan on brining in six birds. These birds raced in the loslobosrpc in ABQ. 200 to 400 birds per race 100 to 350 miles.
LL 1002 - 3rd 
LL 1062 - 2nd,27th,43rd
LL 1072 - 18th,26th,34th,34th,36th,40th
LL 1024 - 8th, 16th, 24th, 45th
LL 940 - 8th, 23rd, 59th,
LL 922 - 1st
This is what my system is based on. Stock the loft with top 10 birds. More of a statistical philosophy than anything. Top breeders of many animals use the system. Take your top 10% for your future gene pool. After you get where all your birds are the top 10% of the gene pool then maybe you do look for other theories to maintain it. I kind of absorb the advice of the best. Breed winners to winners and always search for the best to cross in.


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## hillfamilyloft

Hey Mel
I was looking at your web page and kind of came to a conclusion. You have some very good birds from very good families. I am not so sure at the origin of your birds that the fanciers selected using eye sign nor if even Van Reet or Hofkens even knew what it was. But that being said, keep using whatever method you are using with a good foundation of birds and good methods whether theory based, data based or both. There will always be believers and non-believers whether in religion, evolution, or even eye-sign. And there will always be those who believe so strongly they become preachers. As long as you keep winning and preaching your theories you will always have followers. For me, I am going to keep stocking my loft with winners whether from a eye guy, tail guy, throat guy, or wing guy. A winner is a winner.


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## Crazy Pete

hillfamilyloft keep an open mind maybe with those 6 birds you bring in you should do 2 pair by eye sign, just to see how they do. Every body always says there is no sientific fact that it is any good, have there ever been a study on eye sign? I don't ever remember reading about any big University or sientist that has done a study, so how could it be fact.
Dave


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## hillfamilyloft

For a theory to be fact must be proven over and over again. At this point it becomes a Law. Case in point the law of gravity. Get enough data and people become believers. For instance in the 70s when Janssen birds began to invade the country, people started winning with them and everybody wanted them. When darkening hit Europe and people started winning everyone darkened. In the US we are just now seeing its importance ie. PT race. I think the problem with eye sign is that mass fliers are not winning with the system. Whether it has merit or not, until it is a defined system and everyone wins with it you will have doubter. I have studied and read enough about the best fliers in Europe to know that strict selection based on performance takes fliers to the top. Take Ludo for instance, he would cut down to only a few pairs over and over to select only his best to carry on. They founded their lofts around winning birds. Get more data show more wins and I will show interest. I have a clear goal, win races. Would like to see a study where anyone can prove more wins by eye sign selection then say random selection much less winner to winner. I am not so sure that random selection is not the way to go. If your loft is full of winning birds any selection method should work.


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## rpalmer

hillfamilyloft said:


> For a theory to be fact must be proven over and over again. At this point it becomes a Law. Case in point the law of gravity. Get enough data and people become believers. For instance in the 70s when Janssen birds began to invade the country, people started winning with them and everybody wanted them. When darkening hit Europe and people started winning everyone darkened. In the US we are just now seeing its importance ie. PT race. I think the problem with eye sign is that mass fliers are not winning with the system. Whether it has merit or not, until it is a defined system and everyone wins with it you will have doubter. I have studied and read enough about the best fliers in Europe to know that strict selection based on performance takes fliers to the top. Take Ludo for instance, he would cut down to only a few pairs over and over to select only his best to carry on. They founded their lofts around winning birds. Get more data show more wins and I will show interest. I have a clear goal, win races. Would like to see a study where anyone can prove more wins by eye sign selection then say random selection much less winner to winner. I am not so sure that random selection is not the way to go. If your loft is full of winning birds any selection method should work.


There is not a single strain maker that used eye sign. Mel is a devout believer in eye sign. He tells us of wins buy leaves out the total number of birds entered, total number of birds lost and has not furnished any race results. I wish him the best and continued success. But I have to logically disagree with what he calls a fact. It can not be duplicated over and over based on X Y and Z.


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## re lee

hillfamilyloft said:


> re lee you make a good point here, but for my argument about basing your loft on performance (fact) and not theory can pay dividends. I am assessing my Albuquerque race teams on what I want to bring into the loft. this year I plan on brining in six birds. These birds raced in the loslobosrpc in ABQ. 200 to 400 birds per race 100 to 350 miles.
> LL 1002 - 3rd
> LL 1062 - 2nd,27th,43rd
> LL 1072 - 18th,26th,34th,34th,36th,40th
> LL 1024 - 8th, 16th, 24th, 45th
> LL 940 - 8th, 23rd, 59th,
> LL 922 - 1st
> This is what my system is based on. Stock the loft with top 10 birds. More of a statistical philosophy than anything. Top breeders of many animals use the system. Take your top 10% for your future gene pool. After you get where all your birds are the top 10% of the gene pool then maybe you do look for other theories to maintain it. I kind of absorb the advice of the best. Breed winners to winners and always search for the best to cross in.


YES BUT the concept really is not winner to winner in this idea. IT is best to best. meaning you select the best PERCENT of your birds to go into the breeding loft. Top 10% then select down from there as breeding results show how selection worked. This is done in all major aspects of quality pigeon breeding IN the show type. It becomes in that 10% the bird is often not a show winner but carries the needed wants that produce show winners. Then in race agin the bird may not have won. BUT was of enough consistant placing either in top loft birds AND top placement in raceing That it had the endurance and quality to be selected as a breeder. Often people buy by pedigree and are buy JUNK birds Where buying by past performance Then pedigree if desired.They go on to produce better birds. As more junk birds are born rathere then more good birds


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## Crazy Pete

Winner to winner, one pin tail, and eye sign are all just theory, Name one fact with homers, there is only one fact the bird with the fastest time wins. If we don't use all these theories we may as well not race.
Dave


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## Pigeon0446

rpalmer said:


> There is not a single strain maker that used eye sign. Mel is a devout believer in eye sign. He tells us of wins buy leaves out the total number of birds entered, total number of birds lost and has not furnished any race results. I wish him the best and continued success. But I have to logically disagree with what he calls a fact. It can not be duplicated over and over based on X Y and Z.


One of his birds won a race in my club this year. I'm not a big eye sign guy so I really don't put much into the eye being the reason that bird won. I think it was more the body and shape that bird was in then it's eye sign. That bird is a monster. I put it in the race crate the for the race it won and that thing was a solid muscle. When I was putting it in the race crate I thought that was the bird to beat tommorrow and I was right. That bird should be in the IF Convention race that was supposed to be today. That bird and a bird I bred are in the same loft and they really had a shot today the winds were in that lofts favor and that guy is a really good flyer. But the had a few excuses why they couldn't go up but I feel it's more that the guys who are running the race are all up north and with the NW wind today they wouldn't stand a chance while tommorrows SW wind will give them a good shot. Mine and Mels bird have a shot either way but I wouldn't have bet so much money on the bird if I knew they were gonna pull this crap.


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## Pigeon0446

re lee said:


> YES BUT the concept really is not winner to winner in this idea. IT is best to best. meaning you select the best PERCENT of your birds to go into the breeding loft. Top 10% then select down from there as breeding results show how selection worked. This is done in all major aspects of quality pigeon breeding IN the show type. It becomes in that 10% the bird is often not a show winner but carries the needed wants that produce show winners. Then in race agin the bird may not have won. BUT was of enough consistant placing either in top loft birds AND top placement in raceing That it had the endurance and quality to be selected as a breeder. Often people buy by pedigree and are buy JUNK birds Where buying by past performance Then pedigree if desired.They go on to produce better birds. As more junk birds are born rathere then more good birds


I'll take a bird who's in the top 10% consistently over a one time winner. I feel pretty much any bird can get lucky and win a race. There's so many variables on race day you never know why a bird was ahead of the rest. They could have just lucked out and got in the right wind gust and pushed them way ahead. But a bird who's been in the top 10 positions 6 times like one of my hens this year has something special in her. She never won but she has two 2nd's a 5th, 6th, 8th, and a 9th. Anothe r bird I just picked up is a bird from The Great South Bay Classic top bird auction. She was 3rd in that race but also won a club race and was 9th in another race. So she's a winner as well a a bird who's consistent.


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## ace in the hole

re lee said:


> YES BUT the concept really is not winner to winner in this idea. IT is best to best. meaning you select the best PERCENT of your birds to go into the breeding loft. Top 10% then select down from there as breeding results show how selection worked. This is done in all major aspects of quality pigeon breeding IN the show type. It becomes in that 10% the bird is often not a show winner but carries the needed wants that produce show winners. Then in race agin the bird may not have won. BUT was of enough consistant placing either in top loft birds AND top placement in raceing That it had the endurance and quality to be selected as a breeder. Often people buy by pedigree and are buy JUNK birds Where buying by past performance Then pedigree if desired.They go on to produce better birds. As more junk birds are born rathere then more good birds


The one thing that you don't see here and many people don't think about is that the loft Randy's birds were flown in never won a race this year. He was flying natural against others on light and dark systems. You breed your best... If you race for three years and don't win a race you have no winners to breed from. 1072 was very consistant also being his 1st. bird to the loft twice and 2nd. bird twice. 1024 was in a different loft and very consistant being his top ave. speed bird in the loft. I look at it also as a one loft race always looking for the best and most consistant birds in the loft.

These two birds I mentioned above are from a brother and sister I loaned Randy bred to a father and daughter of some of Rand'y best. I have suggested to Randy that he breed these two together to see if we can get as good or better results from their children.


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## Melsloft

rpalmer said:


> There is not a single strain maker that used eye sign. Mel is a devout believer in eye sign. He tells us of wins buy leaves out the total number of birds entered, total number of birds lost and has not furnished any race results. I wish him the best and continued success. But I have to logically disagree with what he calls a fact. It can not be duplicated over and over based on X Y and Z.


I hide nothing fellas,, you can easily see race results on my site!!!! so stop stoping urselves and embrace this!!


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## hillfamilyloft

Crazy Pete said:


> Winner to winner, one pin tail, and eye sign are all just theory, Name one fact with homers, there is only one fact the bird with the fastest time wins. If we don't use all these theories we may as well not race.
> Dave


I disagree with winner to winner is a theory. If it is just a theory then it is a good one. Here our choices are based on quantitative data for our desired trait, to win. With all the others we are using qualitative data (does it look good) to make our decisions. In contrast if you bred your worst birds in the loft using race data what would you expect. Because I am certain that those loosing birds will have desirable qualitative traits.


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## Melsloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Hey Mel
> I was looking at your web page and kind of came to a conclusion. You have some very good birds from very good families. I am not so sure at the origin of your birds that the fanciers selected using eye sign nor if even Van Reet or Hofkens even knew what it was. But that being said, keep using whatever method you are using with a good foundation of birds and good methods whether theory based, data based or both. There will always be believers and non-believers whether in religion, evolution, or even eye-sign. And there will always be those who believe so strongly they become preachers. As long as you keep winning and preaching your theories you will always have followers. For me, I am going to keep stocking my loft with winners whether from a eye guy, tail guy, throat guy, or wing guy. A winner is a winner.


I appreciate that!!! and thank you  just trying to simply point something out to peopel,, liek u said take it or leave it its fine with me not gonan loose sleep over how many beleivers or non believers there are,, BUT I do know theer is a patetrn and a reason fo reverything not just a shot in teh dark! and if van reet and hofken didnt use teh theory jit just means to me they had so many exceptional birds with super eyesigns they either knew it which I bet they would but why share that with their compeitors OR they just had so many GREAT birds with eyesigns that they didnt even know cause lack of knowledge on that...family or no family I have the confidence to go into any loft any auction site and pick a GREAT pair ! it just comes down to $$ and why woudl I want another koopman or seblauw ,, I want to be different  the others can chase the latest trend or todays flavor they have deeper pockets than me LOL


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## Melsloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Hey Mel
> I was looking at your web page and kind of came to a conclusion. You have some very good birds from very good families. I am not so sure at the origin of your birds that the fanciers selected using eye sign nor if even Van Reet or Hofkens even knew what it was. But that being said, keep using whatever method you are using with a good foundation of birds and good methods whether theory based, data based or both. There will always be believers and non-believers whether in religion, evolution, or even eye-sign. And there will always be those who believe so strongly they become preachers. As long as you keep winning and preaching your theories you will always have followers. For me, I am going to keep stocking my loft with winners whether from a eye guy, tail guy, throat guy, or wing guy. A winner is a winner.


second time writing this ,, as I lost what I wrote before,, but I appreciate it ! and thank you,, don't worry I'm not gonna loose sleep over who believes or doesnt,, I was just trying to popint something out to you guys ,,so anyways now if Hofkens or van reet knew about eyesign and they used it I'm sure they did to one form or another BUT either that (and why woudl they share that info with their compeitors LOL) they had so many excelptional birds with such rich eyesigns that they didnt knwo it maybe cause lack of knowlege my point even todays van erets and hofkens have strong eyesigns,, doesnt mean they are all good but in general they have good qualities,,, all I can say is I have teh confidence that I can pick the best from any loft or auction ,, pair a pair that will giove results,, BUT only thing holding back many is $$$ I dont want nor do I have the funds and deep piockets to go after teh lastest flavo rof teh month! NOR do I want to have that same flaor everyone else has,, I want to be different ! thast my strategy and it seems to work


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## hillfamilyloft

Melsloft said:


> I hide nothing fellas,, you can easily see race results on my site!!!! so stop stoping urselves and embrace this!!


When I see you preaching to me about embracing something you use as the holy grail it makes me think of other reasons why you might be on the top of the sheets. Is it just eye sign, Is it the major factory. I see a loft with first good quality birds, I also see a fancier that invest a bunch of time in his birds. A guy that looks at race results to make decisions. If all was equal in your club, all the guys had the same family of birds, the same training methods, the same feeding, etc. In other words if all factors except your eyesign theory were the same for all birds in the club, I would embrace it. But until there is a study that shows eye sign as the factor for your success, I will have my doubts. Not as for breeding top birds together, there is plenty of evidence that it works. Look at the top of the race sheets in the toughest club in the world and ask them their secret. Eye sign reminds me of religion, basing belief on faith and interpretation. The world has many views on this. Winner to Winner or top to top is like war, we have a clear victor.


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## Crazy Pete

hillfamilyloft said:


> I disagree with winner to winner is a theory. If it is just a theory then it is a good one. Here our choices are based on quantitative data for our desired trait, to win. With all the others we are using qualitative data (does it look good) to make our decisions. In contrast if you bred your worst birds in the loft using race data what would you expect. Because I am certain that those loosing birds will have desirable qualitative traits.



Take our PT race 11314 should not have been lost both parents and all 4 gparents were AU champs. So I guess winner to winner is still just a theory.
Dave


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## Alamo

Walter...I could have told you MONTHS ago about the IF race....The guy running the race,had over 100 IF birds..The rules in print said; "75 bird limit" per handler....Did you really think they would let them go,if the wind was against his loft WINNING the race ???This is one of the reasons I do not like sending birds out to races....Only the hot shot guys get the breaks...Forget the little guys...They only want OUR MONEY !!! Alamo


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## Crazy Pete

Alamo said:


> Walter...I could have told you MONTHS ago about the IF race....The guy running the race,had over 100 IF birds..The rules in print said; "75 bird limit" per handler....Did you really think they would let them go,if the wind was against his loft WINNING the race ???This is one of the reasons I do not like sending birds out to races....Only the hot shot guys get the breaks...Forget the little guys...They only want OUR MONEY !!! Alamo


Money the root of all evil, I sent 2 birds to a one loft race a RC and a DCSP. Now is the hard part, how did my BB finish 2 away from the money?
Dave


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## ace in the hole

Crazy Pete said:


> Take our PT race 11314 should not have been lost both parents and all 4 gparents were AU champs. So I guess winner to winner is still just a theory.
> Dave


Not all birds breed well together. Not all birds bred from the best breeding pair in the world are going to be good birds. Come on Dave you know that.

What did it's siblings do this year? Do you know 11314 was lost or could it have been taken by a hawk or falcon?


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## Pigeon0446

Alamo said:


> Walter...I could have told you MONTHS ago about the IF race....The guy running the race,had over 100 IF birds..The rules in print said; "75 bird limit" per handler....Did you really think they would let them go,if the wind was against his loft WINNING the race ???This is one of the reasons I do not like sending birds out to races....Only the hot shot guys get the breaks...Forget the little guys...They only want OUR MONEY !!! Alamo


I only had 5 birds left for the race they look really good but none of them have ever done anything so I don't really have to much confidence I'll do much as the handler in the race no matter if it was today or tommorrow but who knows. But what gets me is the one bird I have left as breeder has been up there a few time in the club races and I bet alot on her thinking we'd have the north in the wind. She's in one of the best lofts around a guy who's been IF Champion Loft a few times. And he on the south side even further south then me. Most of the birds left are up north now I feel like the threw my money away betting on her. Today all she would have to do is be a good bird to win but tommorrow she'd have to an exceptional bird to win. She's still got a chance but not the same chance she would have had today.


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## 2y4life

hillfamilyloft said:


> I disagree with winner to winner is a theory. If it is just a theory then it is a good one. Here our choices are based on quantitative data for our desired trait, to win. With all the others we are using qualitative data (does it look good) to make our decisions. In contrast if you bred your worst birds in the loft using race data what would you expect. Because I am certain that those loosing birds will have desirable qualitative traits.


Best to best/winner to winner is the the closest thing to a fact we have. We have no idea what really makes a racing pigeon a good racing pigeon so we make up all these theories and correlations and turn them into "causation" and the reasons why the birds are winning. 

You breed the best birds together and then fly the youngs and breed the best of the youngs and you will eventually get good birds that are consistent. That's true in any animal husbandry. Put it this way, given a choice between pairing up two birds that have won numerous races and placed top 10 numerous times or two birds with "excellent" eye sign, I'll take the pair with numerous races won.


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## rpalmer

Pigeon0446 said:


> I only had 5 birds left for the race they look really good but none of them have ever done anything so I don't really have to much confidence I'll do much as the handler in the race no matter if it was today or tommorrow but who knows. But what gets me is the one bird I have left as breeder has been up there a few time in the club races and I bet alot on her thinking we'd have the north in the wind. She's in one of the best lofts around a guy who's been IF Champion Loft a few times. And he on the south side even further south then me. Most of the birds left are up north now I feel like the threw my money away betting on her. Today all she would have to do is be a good bird to win but tommorrow she'd have to an exceptional bird to win. She's still got a chance but not the same chance she would have had today.


You say you bet on your bird. But you actually bet on the weather. The bird was a better bet.


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## Alamo

Many times,you read ads,or results for birds,that were bred from parents,that were bred for stock...These (usual) late breds,are from someone`s best pairs....These birds will never be raced...They are put in the stock loft,and mated up the following year...Many,many times,they breed winners....They were never flown...But,the owner knows his birds...He knows what he likes,and mates the birds up accordingly....Everything about each pigeon is noted...He will pair up the birds,by body,balance,wing and eye`s....He`s trying to give himself the best chance of raising a future champ...Now,it`s up to mother nature...Will she put most of the great genes,this pair has,into ONE pigeon,OR,spread ALL those great genes into 4 youngsters...Which none of the 4,will never make a champion....It is not easy raising that Champion....Alamo


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## Pigeon0446

rpalmer said:


> You say you bet on your bird. But you actually bet on the weather. The bird was a better bet.


Weather plays a big role in pigeon racing so yes I was betting on the weather as well as the bird. If the bird wasn't any good I wouldn't bet on her no matter what the weather forcast was.


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## hillfamilyloft

Mel
If you get time run some numbers for me. I want to see how your eye sign methods show results over time. For example say the last three years that you have been doing it. Count number of pairs that have bred of top 10s, 10%, 20% etc and see if you are showing increases from year to year. I ran some number from last year to this year using my bringing in only the best from my race team and only using proven breeders and fliers and it is pretty interesting. Where my top 10s percentage has stayed the same, my top 10% and 20% pair percentages have increased.
Data: % of pairs that have bred from 2010 to 2011
Top 10 finishes 2010 5 pairs of 20 25%, 2011 5 of 21 24%
Top 10% finishes 2010 10 of 20 50%, 2011 14 of 21 67%
Top 20% finishes 2010 12 of 20 60%, 2011 19 of 21 90%
I was surprised to see that by bringing in top flying basket birds that my 20% birds have increased dramatically. I have not put 2009 numbers to things yet, but it seems like selection based on performance is working. My goal next year is to increase the points birds. This is the first years my birds have been raced out of the same loft with virtually the same methods. Just curious how your eye sign methods reflect on results over time.


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## hillfamilyloft

Something Mark and I were talking about is to start breeding a bit more on characteristics ie. Wing, Keel, Throat, Size, yes and maybe even eye to get to the next level. Say where 90% are breeding top 10% birds instead of 20% birds. Schearlaekens sp? would let his birds choose there own mates. I do this some of the time. Sometimes they do a better job then me. Not sure if we can do a better job? I think done wrong theories are probably a worse way of selection than letting them do it. I am a numbers guy. If my birds do not breed top birds, they leave the loft. Whether they have desirable physical traits or not. One thing I am trying to eliminate from my breeding is excuses. Especially, "It must be the bird I mated it with". Now on to assess individual birds.


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## PigeonVilla

hillfamilyloft said:


> Something Mark and I were talking about is to start breeding a bit more on characteristics ie. Wing, Keel, Throat, Size, yes and maybe even eye to get to the next level. Say where 90% are breeding top 10% birds instead of 20% birds. Schearlaekens sp? would let his birds choose there own mates. I do this some of the time. Sometimes they do a better job then me. Not sure if we can do a better job? I think done wrong theories are probably a worse way of selection than letting them do it. I am a numbers guy. If my birds do not breed top birds, they leave the loft. Whether they have desirable physical traits or not. One thing I am trying to eliminate from my breeding is excuses. Especially, "It must be the bird I mated it with". Now on to assess individual birds.


 Personally I would really like to see a few top lofts or even one loft race loft events assesed by eye sign pre and post racing season to see what they are saying is true and on point and to see where the end results really come in . Im sure it would be very interesting to say the least . Just throwing eye sign out there doesnt do enough for me as a theory and I myself need more evidence or validation that its a working theory then just saying certain birds in certain lofts are the better birds ,most can do that just by looking into a loft and pick out the more vibrant birds in a loft .


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## First To Hatch

Funny, I took my new birds today and showed them to my mentor. He looked at 7 birds, 3 of them were bred by Mel, on two of those birds Mel bred my mentor commented on them saying they have a good eye. I still don't know what a good eye looks like though.


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## hillfamilyloft

First To Hatch said:


> Funny, I took my new birds today and showed them to my mentor. He looked at 7 birds, 3 of them were bred by Mel, on two of those birds Mel bred my mentor commented on them saying they have a good eye. I still don't know what a good eye looks like though.


Sometimes, I wonder how many fanciers know what a good eye is also. A bunch of opinions on this subject. Not a whole lot of excuses on the race sheet though. Cliff the guy that flies my birds was about an hour out today from 350 miles today. So was Jose's 136 the bird that has won 3 races this year and winning high points. Stopped myself from looking to excuses before I made any. Then the phone rang. The second place bird a couple of minutes out was bred out of a hen from my stock. Five to Six hours from 350 miles. I like my birds. Time to get ready for breeding season.


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## Alamo

All this eye stuff had me curious about my birds....With my eye piece,I graded my 11 stock birds....Here is my grading,with a 10 being the best...It`s my thoughts on what is a 10 in my birds...My 10 might be a 9 in Mel`s loft,I don`t know,but it`s my grading....
Out of 11 pigeons,I have (4) 10`s,including a beautifull Violet Eye...(4) 9`s...(3) 8`s...

In my OB Race team 7 (Cocks)...(5) 10`s....(2) 8`s.....My Long Distance birds,all 5 of them,have Yellow eyesign,etc, that is outstanding....One bird,a middle distance bird,and a 2011 YB,have what I consider a VG eye etc...

In my OB Race team 9 (Hens)....(3) 10`s (1) Violet....(5) 9`s...(1) 8......

My grades...10 = Outstanding...9 = Superior...8 = VG....7 =Good....6 = Fair....

I only keep 8`s or higher,as YB`s....UNLESS,they have flown/raced very well...Then I will give them a chance as yearlings on the race team....I have never had a bird race well,that didn`t have at least a #8 or higher eye grade...Alamo

PS:I also grade for throat,and I have never had a VG or better racing pigeon,that didn`t have a grade 8 or higher throat...Especially in Long Distance racing...When other flyers said they don`t beleive in my thoughts,and I handle their TOP LD birds,I prove to them right there....Their birds have the THROAT,that I know they should have...Every one of them have it....Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft

Alamo
Now that you have graded by eye sign is there a correlation with your better eye sign birds and race results? I still have the view that if I grade my breeders by eye sign and pair accordingly that I am clouding my view. My pairs that breed winners, top 10s and top 10% birds stay together the rest leave. My feeling is if I use any method other than performance I may keep a bird that needs to go based on its eye grade, pedigree, looks etc. In my opinion things that are meaningless to results. I have looked at Mel's results and they are good, I see your grading system. I want to see correlation and proof that eye sign is directly correlated with results. Under my system my 10% birds went from 50% to 67% and my 20% birds from 60% to 90%. This is stuff I can sink my teeth into.


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## hillfamilyloft

I want to point out one clear difference. You tell me that winner to winner does not work. I agree sometimes that winners do not always breed winners. But I also categorize birds by winning breeders. Birds that produce winners. If a winner does not breed top birds it also goes. Under eye sign if you do not eliminate 10 graded birds that do not produce and keep them for eye sign only, it will not work. I have found through chance that if winners do not breed you top birds their offspring sometimes will. Whatever selection method you use, whether results, pedigree, eye, throat etc, If you do not get rid of these birds if they cannot breed then your selection method is flawed.


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## hillfamilyloft

Too many people keep high dollar birds, 10 graded eyes, grizzles, whites etc because they get attached in some way. Then when they do not produce they feel obligated to keep them around and breed mediocrity. Your only as good as your worst breeder. Their offspring slow down the flock. I have been looking for a grizzle pair for awhile. I get many offers but most are not attached to breeding or racing record. They are bred for color. I am bringing one in this year that is 33rd high points bird in the club, bred from a bird of mine that raced 500 miles and is a sibling of my last years winner. He was bred to a grizzle 500 mile bird and they produce 10% birds. I will cross it in to a bird that throws splash birds. If it does not produce it leaves, and then I try again.


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## hillfamilyloft

Was thinking on how I select breeders and in what order. Bieche has his 6 traits etc. Here is my order.
1. Produce winners
2. Produce top 10 birds
3. Produce top 10% birds
4. Winners
5. Top 10% and consistent
6. Same sex siblings of top breeders
7. Same sex siblings of top racers
8. Outside birds selected in order 1-7 above
9. Stock sense
10. Because I like the bird (This is mixture between stock sense and luck)
11. Burrow a bird from my mentor because I need a cock or hen He has not failed me yet
12. Looking into other methods to select from each category. Use throat, eye, wing, pedigree to help select pairing from above order. When I get tired of researching all these theories I will probably let the birds choose there mates. 
This year I was trying to mate Mark's birds they way he suggested and they would not go together, so I gave up. They paired up into two random pairs and gave us our top 3 birds this year. They make better babies when they are happy.


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## orock

I'm new to the game I don't know much about eye signs so I would have to judge ands keep birds through race results that is the only sure thing for me.


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## Alamo

Hill Family.....My best LD birds all have great eyes....BUT...They also handle well....Have strong vents,keel...They look the part !! That means they look like birds that can fly ALL DAY....They don`t give up...I get mad at myself for not getting them more motivated to race...Alot of fanciers BLAME the birds...I had two birds home from a 600 mile race 3 or 4 hours late...I picked them up,and was surprised HOW MUCH more they had to give....They felt like they homed from a 250 mile race...They were not light at all...They had alot more flying time left to their bodies....They were still strong...Trying to get out of my hands.....The loft Mgr,didn`t do his part....They were not motivated to race home....If the race was a 2 day or 3 day race,because of bad weather,I would have clocked both of them....They are not SPEED pigeons....They will not race at 1400 ypm or more...It`s not in their make-up.....Part of their back ground,was their great great grand parents were LD birds,that would race all day and night for days if need be...Sion/Stassart is their name....They were never speed birds,and never will be....But great eye`s are very much part of their make-up...Mostly Yellow eyed birds...For what it`s worth...When I started in 1984,a good guy gave me a special hen from his loft (Sion)...I always mentioned to him what a great eye she had....He said"I don`t care about eye sign,or what color the eyes are...The basket will tell me which are my best birds....I asked him,could I handle your 5 best stock cocks...He said yes...He brought out one beautifull RCC,about 12 years old....He was a handfull...He was so strong,I could barely hold him...What a great yellow eye he had...One after another,he brought out these RCC`s....All down from the OLD 12 yr old..All posessed great eyesign...I finally told him,for a guy who don`t beleive in eyesign,you sure have pigeons with great eyes....He said once again,"The Basket will Tell Me who to Keep"......So whether you beleive in eyesign or not,your BASKET will let you know who to keep and breed from....All my 500 mile winners,and high placement pigeons in Combine results,always had great bodies,throat,vents,feathering and eyes....Which one of these points is most important,I would say the body and bone structure...If you have no engine,the car can`t run/race.....Same for the bird.....The throat/eyes/brains will make the bird race well....How well it races,sometimes,is how well WE as loft mgr`s do in preparing the bird to race..Health/Condition/Motivation are just as important,as any of the points of interest,on the make-up of a racing pigeon...Alamo


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## Kastle Loft

Below is an excerpt from an email conversation I recently had with a very successful racer and breeder over the decades (I bought a bird from him and we got to talkin'). I do not have his permission to name him so I won't (yet) but he is known around the country for his successes and has written for the digest in the past. 

What I found very interesting about his response to my questions is that he says that racing records have very little weight with him when selecting breeders.



> *Q:* What is your order of preference when determining the quality of a breeder?
> 
> 1) Physical traits (conformation, feathers, eye, etc)
> 2) lineage (pedigree)
> 3) Race or breeding performance of the individual bird or it's parents
> 
> Another way to ask the question is this:
> 
> Would a breeder be smart to:
> 
> 1) Breed together what he believes are his best pigeons, based on their physical characteristics and pedigree.
> 2) Then race their babies.
> 3) Of the babies who survive training and racing, judge them on physical characteristics and race record to determine if they merit a spot in the breeding shed.
> 
> What if they look super but stank it up at racing? What if they burned up the course but have poor conformation?
> 
> Or should he just not race the babies and test them as breeders based only on superior conformation and lineage?





> *A:* I really don't have an order of preference, just a demand to have them all. When I first think of a pigeon as a breeder I will either look at the pedigree or handle it. If the pedigree is good, then I will handle it, and the same if I am handling it and find it exceptional, then I want to look at the pedigree. The pedigree will tell me if the parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were super racers or super breeders, and as I handle the pigeon, I will know if it is a super pigeon itself.
> 
> Then I look into the eye, if it has the makings of a breeder in the eye, then I will consider whether it will be given a chance in the breeding loft. But all of these MUST be there, there is no exception. *Now if the pigeon itself was a good racer, that would carry very little weight.* Now if was a super breeder of racers, then the rest will certainly fall in line, as there are only one in maybe 50 million pigeons that can breed super racers and not have all of the above 3. then I would question the pedigree of this pigeon and how certain it is that the super youngsters are from this pigeon.
> 
> When I say handle a pigeon, its not just how if feels in the hand, there are many aspects of a pigeon I look at when it is being handled by me, they must all be there, and must be very good.
> 
> Now on to your 2nd set of questions; 1 and 2 are a yes
> #3 is a no. *Do not use race record to carry a lot of weight.* It may get me to look a little harder, but there are many more good racers than good breeders. Go back to the 1st set of questions again for your real answer!


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## Alamo

OROCK...That`s the best thing to do,untill you learn a few more things to use for grading...You have to learn how grade for....Body...Bone Struture...Feathering...Balance...
Eyes....Expression....These are the main things you will have to learn...You will need a mentor,to show you how to do these things....A mentor is better then a book...It`s a hands on learning curve...Find a guy near you that is a good flyer...And BEG him to help you..hahahahahahaha!!!! Alamo


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## dennis kuhn

Best advice to novice fanciers is to *handle as many race winners as possible when visiting other fancier's lofts*. See what each race winner's characteristics are similar to others you have handled from other lofts and what distances the races were that the bird's won. I have found that good race results/birds seem to go hand in hand with good eye sign. Like with everything, there will always be the exceptions to the rule. Eyesign is only one of the "tools in the shed" when grading pigeons, and if one only bases selection on eyesign, wing, vent, etc. the fancier is destined to eventually find themselves at the bottom of the race sheet.

Just another fancier's opinion,

Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com

http://www.whiteracers.com


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Those who feel they have some expert knowlege on eyesign, I wish they would study this particular eyeball, and tell me what kind of racer this bird should be.


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## Crazy Pete

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Those who feel they have some expert knowlege on eyesign, I wish they would study this particular eyeball, and tell me what kind of racer this bird should be.


I have always maintained they only need 2 eyes but, from every thing I've red lately you need to hold the bird. It is impossible to look at a pic of an eye and tell.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Someone emailed me and said my eye photo could not be graded because the picture was not large enough. What do I know ? I am thinking compared to an actual pigeon's eye, it is actually much larger. 

I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject, I would imagine that it would have to be explained to me. Someday I might just have someone photograph maybe 20 pigeon's eyes, and have an eye sign expert grade them from #1 to #20 and then compare their grading to the actual racing and breeding results. What I hear them say however, is that it is not 100% reliable, as it is only one tool in the tool box. 

*My newest theory*, is that there may not be a pigeon fancier, anywhere in the world, using all the tools in the "tool box" that can correctly grade 20 pigeons from #1 to #20 on their racing and breeding value. If one really could do that, then gee...wouldn't it be so much more easy to breed better pigeons ?!

The only way I have ever successfully determined a pigeon's racing ability has been to send it to a number of races, and to determine it's breeding quality....to breed from the bird and see what kind of offspring it produces. Certainly would be nice if there were signs on the bird "I'm gonna be a great racer" or "I'm gonna be a great breeder". The only signs I have ever detected are from those birds that are very obviously poor physical specimens. I have seen many very "pretty" birds which look like a million bucks, but couldn't race or breed a winner. And I have seen "ugly" birds which won races and produced winners.

We all have, or someday will, develop this mental "list" of things we like in a pigeon, and that list could be as varied as there are numbers of fanciers. Some will dislike/like a pigeon just because of the color, shape, balance, size, type of tail, shape of wing, or yes...even what they like/dislike about the eye of a pigeon. There may be as many likes and dislikes as there are fanciers. 

I am willing to admit, that I don't even know....what I don't know. But, I am pretty sure that there are some very important things about our pigeons, that we can't even see, which may have a very big impact as to how good of a racer or breeder that a pigeon is. Just a few examples, would be their brains, heart, immune system, etc. etc. Maybe someday science will provide these answers. In the mean time, I am going to try to overcome my prejudices of likes and dislikes, and simply rely on performances as my evaluation method.

My reasoning is simple, it is the only selection criteria from my perspective, which has a scientific basis. I just am not smart enough to base my selection process on purely outside physical attributes. Perhaps if I was breeding show birds, I could rely on what I can see with my eyes, but I'm not trying to breed pretty birds or pigeons with pretty eyes, I am attempting to breed homing pigeons which will fly home fast.


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## dennis kuhn

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Those who feel they have some expert knowlege on eyesign, I wish they would study this particular eyeball, and tell me what kind of racer this bird should be.


Your eye photo looks alot like that of the "Late Rode 430" sire of 25 X 1st and breeder of 50 foundation breeders. Information is right off your site as well as picture/information from Ganus's site. Did I get it right, even though I am far from what I'd refer to as an eyesign expert?

Dennis Kuhn


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## fresnobirdman

dennis kuhn said:


> Your eye photo looks alot like that of the "Late Rode 430" sire of 25 X 1st and breeder of 50 foundation breeders. Information is right off your site as well as picture/information from Ganus's site. Did I get it right, even though I am far from what I'd refer to as an eyesign expert?
> 
> Dennis Kuhn


good response.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

dennis kuhn said:


> Your eye photo looks alot like that of the "Late Rode 430" sire of 25 X 1st and breeder of 50 foundation breeders. Information is right off your site as well as picture/information from Ganus's site. Did I get it right, even though I am far from what I'd refer to as an eyesign expert?
> 
> Dennis Kuhn


 You are just a little too sharp for me !  It is amazing that after the fact, one can look into theirs eyes, hold them in the hand, feel that vent, open that wing, look into the throat, and anything else we fanciers want to look at, and just tell....yep...this is a good one ! 

The only thing I was ever able to figure out, is that winners can come in all kinds of different shapes, sizes, colors, styles, looks, feels and and I imagine numerous kinds, colors of eyes etc.

As a side bar, far as I know, Late Rode never raced, if he was raced, the results were never talked about. He could have been a very average racer, or maybe even a poor one, I don't think we will ever know. Was just curious if his eyes fortold that he would only ever be a very average racer ?


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## Melsloft

Warren that pic is to low in resolution and is not a good pic to judge what so ever thats why we take the TIME to take clear high resolution pics not some scan or copy of a copy! its like looking at diamonds with your eyes closed! In order to judge and grade an eye you need a pic like this!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Melsloft

Here Is A Perfect Example Of What You Need To Show Us!!!!!!!!


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## re lee

This thread is getting like the bible. Many have there idea and faith And it all boils down to 1 thing believing what you believe. In the end dont most believe in the same thought


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## Alamo

I was just reading some stuff about EYES,from a few world known eyesign guys....One though was if you breed Pearl eye to Pearl eye,you get Speed/Stamina,but lose Homing ability...If you breed Yellow to Yellow,you get great homing ability,strenght/stamina,but they are Ploggers....You lose speed.....Pearl to Yellow is suggested,to get all the better attributes from the parents....Speed/Stamina/Homing....Since I have almost all Yellow eyed birds,I can agree that the above statement of "Ploggers" is correct...My birds are not fast pigeons...They do not do that well in YB races,unless it`s bad weather....Can anyone either PROVE the other statements TRUE or FALSE ???.....Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft

Leave it Warren to make the eyesign thing clear. Could not have put it in any better words. All I can do is throw data and facts at the issue. Thus making it scientific. I am a teacher. I would not like telling the parents of my students that their kid is an idiot just because they look like one and have physical traits of idiots. And another parent that their kid is a genius because they have nice correlation in their eyes. It is a lot easier when you can show them test scores etc that can explain things. With birds race results fit the bill.


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## rpalmer

hillfamilyloft said:


> Leave it Warren to make the eyesign thing clear. Could not have put it in any better words. All I can do is throw data and facts at the issue. Thus making it scientific. I am a teacher. I would not like telling the parents of my students that their kid is an idiot just because they look like one and have physical traits of idiots. And another parent that their kid is a genius because they have nice correlation in their eyes. It is a lot easier when you can show them test scores etc that can explain things. With birds race results fit the bill.


And there ya go. That's it. No, it really is.


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## ERIC K

Eye sign people take this test. http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/eyesign.php
then tell me what you think.


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## 2y4life

hillfamilyloft said:


> Leave it Warren to make the eyesign thing clear. Could not have put it in any better words. All I can do is throw data and facts at the issue. Thus making it scientific. I am a teacher. I would not like telling the parents of my students that their kid is an idiot just because they look like one and have physical traits of idiots. And another parent that their kid is a genius because they have nice correlation in their eyes. It is a lot easier when you can show them test scores etc that can explain things. With birds race results fit the bill.


I am a teacher just like you and I believe in what you believe in. Correlation is not causation but alot to these flyers seem to think so.

Look at it this way:

In the most profitable animal competition in the world, horse racing, they don't believe in thing such as eye sign, length of tail, length of front/rear legs etc. In breeding of chickens for food, they don't look at those things either so why is it that so many of us believe this eye sign to be fact when NO ONE ELSE IN ANY OTHER FIELD OF ANIMAL HUSBANDRY USES IT?


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## re lee

IF there ever was any secert or true answer It is learn before you know . know before you do. then just do as you do because you have mearly done what you know to do Because it does take many years to understand pigeon keeping.


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## Kastle Loft

2y4life said:


> I am a teacher just like you and I believe in what you believe in. Correlation is not causation but alot to these flyers seem to think so.
> 
> Look at it this way:
> 
> In the most profitable animal competition in the world, horse racing, they don't believe in thing such as eye sign, length of tail, length of front/rear legs etc. In breeding of chickens for food, they don't look at those things either so why is it that so many of us believe this eye sign to be fact when NO ONE ELSE IN ANY OTHER FIELD OF ANIMAL HUSBANDRY USES IT?


Your main point here still rings true, but actually thoroughbred breeders do in fact look at physical traits such as length of legs when deciding matings. I watch a demo of some software last year that used a photo of a horse to place multiple target points on their body to create an algorithmic "ranking" of that horse. For example, with the click of a mouse you would select a predetermined point on the horses head, shoulder, back and multiple points on their legs. 

I'm not sure how widely used that software is but it wasn't considered voodoo by the people in the room at the time. It was clear that they were trying to use science to take measurements of horses to determine matings - something they would have done in person or visually in the past. Admittedly that's not the same as eye sign, but I thought you might find that interesting.


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## 2y4life

Kastle Loft said:


> Your main point here still rings true, but actually thoroughbred breeders do in fact look at physical traits such as length of legs when deciding matings. I watch a demo of some software last year that used a photo of a horse to place multiple target points on their body to create an algorithmic "ranking" of that horse. For example, with the click of a mouse you would select a predetermined point on the horses head, shoulder, back and multiple points on their legs.
> 
> I'm not sure how widely used that software is but it wasn't considered voodoo by the people in the room at the time. It was clear that they were trying to use science to take measurements of horses to determine matings - something they would have done in person or visually in the past. Admittedly that's not the same as eye sign, but I thought you might find that interesting.


Yes, there's no denying that some physical traits must be taken into consideration but what is most important is how the horse performs. It's obvious that they wouldn't breed a horse who's front legs are too long or too short and vice versa. Same with pigeons how some talk about balance but to go based on something like eye sign, that's a different story.


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## rpalmer

Kastle Loft said:


> I'm not sure how widely used that software is but it wasn't considered voodoo by the people in the room at the time. It was clear that they were trying to use science to take measurements of horses to determine matings - something they would have done in person or visually in the past. Admittedly that's not the same as eye sign, but I thought you might find that interesting.


I think it would be relevant to know how many of these people were successful breeders and how many were "new". If the majority were successful breeders and were impressed than that would carry more weight.


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## Kastle Loft

Complete story here



> Among the reports the company provides is a mating analysis that uses statistics to measure virtually every corner of a mare, from the distance between her knees and feet to her weight and stride length.
> 
> Then, those numbers are matched against a database of thousands of stallions -- a sort of online dating service for horses. It then predicts the likelihood that a mare and stallion together can produce a foal that develops into a competitive racehorse.
> 
> "When you're studying pedigrees, you're not only looking for the patterns in bloodlines but trying to extrapolate structure from past performance," said Suzanne Smallwood, senior analyst at Equix. "At some point, things can get pretty diluted six generations back. So we can give you a little black and white information on a gray area."


Every performance-based industry is looking for the new, best ways of finding the answers and making the choices more predictable. The story above is about the breeder of Big Brown, who nearly won the Triple Crown and had his breeding rights purchased for $50 million. 

So yes, in this case I'd call it successful. But notice the measurements between a mare's knees and feet is only part of the equation. Past performance is also part of it.


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## 2y4life

Here's a great quote about pigeon myths:

Do not be fooled-and almost everyone is-when handling and evaluating a pigeon. Most people pick up a pigeon, pull its beak, (I'd like to pull your nose and see what I can conclude from this); force open its mouth (yes, I have confirmed the existence of a tongue and throat); open its wings (recognize nothing and close them knowingly); and comment on its weak vents (yet I have never seen vents not up to their purpose) and/or weak back (not knowing that the back is actually between the birds shoulders). These real experts look at a pigeon's eye or eyes (in reality all they can do is confirm that yes it has two), and then either proceed to have an orgasm or declare that they have better.

T*he reality is that no one can conclude anything from the physical makeup of two equally well-constructed pigeons. *If you are honest, you can, in reality, only confirm to someone your own personal subjective preferences. Not all opinions are of equal importance or value, all by definition are subjective; but the corollary of this is not that all opinions are of equal value because the truth is that they are not (see stock sense).

*Now in each pigeon there are actually two pigeons: the one physically that you see, and the hidden bird that you have no way of seeing, and therefore no way of judging.*

When you evaluate a bird, you must of necessity evaluate both what you see in front of you and what is in the bird and you cannot see. In horses this is often called heart. If you misjudge this you lose your chance to own the champion.

*Here's an example of all the experts being wrong:
*
"In 1960, a small horse was born in Oshawa, Ontario. As a yearling, he was offered for sale for $25,000 (Canadian) and there were no takers. His owner retained him, trained, and raced him. In 1963, Northern Dancer won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness went on to become the most prepotent sire in all history. I watched at a yearling sale as his sons and daughters sold for between $1.5 and $3 million (U.S.) each. E.P. Taylor would eventually refuse $40 million (U.S.) for the Dancer. He founded a dynasty worldwide and single-handedly created a horse

My point is that all of the experts and fender fixers evaluated the horse that they saw, and not one saw anything they liked, and they were all wrong: Most pigeon enthusiasts are wrong too!"


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## orock

Love that Quote.


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## Crazy Pete

2y4life with all that I guess we should buy a bird cull it, fold the pedigree into an airplane and just fly it. lol
Dave


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## 2y4life

Crazy Pete said:


> 2y4life with all that I guess we should buy a bird cull it, fold the pedigree into an airplane and just fly it. lol
> Dave


Obviously you didn't read anything or lack comprehension skills because I have no idea how you pulled that out of the quote. Name kinda suits though. 

It just merely states that alot of the things pigeon fanciers do are nothing more than mere correlation. A guy flies a particular strain and notices that his best birds are small, have tight vents, and a particular type of eye and then he goes around touting that as fact about all homers. Correlation is not causation. There is no way you can tell if a bird is a good racer or not based simply on the way it looks, especially based on eye sign alone. The physical make-up of a bird, to me, is more important than eye sign.

Just like how in the NFL, you have all these guys doing all this stuff at the combine but when it all comes down to it, heart and determination will win more often than not. It's been proven time and time again. What you see on the outside doesn't tell you what is on the inside. 

This would be like me walking around and telling people that all the "intelligent" kids tend to have lighter hair because that's what I see in my classroom. Call me the hair sign guy of students. Again, correlation is not causation.


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## Crazy Pete

Just trying to add a little humor some people for some against this thread has been way to serious.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

2y4life;624979).....
When you evaluate a bird said:


> Here's an example of all the experts being wrong:
> [/B]
> "In 1960, a small horse was born in Oshawa, Ontario. As a yearling, he was offered for sale for $25,000 (Canadian) and there were no takers. His owner retained him, trained, and raced him. In 1963, Northern Dancer won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness went on to become the most prepotent sire in all history. I watched at a yearling sale as his sons and daughters sold for between $1.5 and $3 million (U.S.) each. E.P. Taylor would eventually refuse $40 million (U.S.) for the Dancer. He founded a dynasty worldwide and single-handedly created a horse
> 
> My point is that all of the experts and fender fixers evaluated the horse that they saw, and not one saw anything they liked, and they were all wrong: Most pigeon enthusiasts are wrong too!"



Thank you for sharing this. I knew there was once a famous horse in which all of the "experts" *just knew *was no good. But, I was not sure which horse it was. I guess because all the "signs" were just not there. But, of course just as in pigeons, there are many things that go into the making of a champion, much of which one can not see. Just as the "experts" were incorrect in their evaluation of this horse, so I am sure that many pigeon fanciers are wrong when it comes to the evaluation of their pigeons. We will never know how many champions may have been culled because the bird was "different" and did not conform to what the fancier thought was needed to be a good racer or breeder. Maybe it was too big, small, wrong color, wrong eye sign, etc. etc.

I for one, must admit, that before training and the races begin, I am rarely correct as to which birds I "pick" as the ones which will be in the loft at the end of the race season with their diplomas. More often then I care to admit, many beautiful and pretty pigeons, all with that million dollar look, are long gone, by way of the training basket or the races. And low and behold, that ugly pigeon without the looks and feel, will be the one home and in the clock. The longer I race, the more I have come to the conclusion, that only the training basket or race sheet will know for sure. 

The beautiful thing about the training basket and race sheet, is that it provides you simplicity. Those who make the training and races their friend, and allow them to select for you, will be light years ahead of those fanciers who are using some external physical attribute. The exception being those who are competing in the show area, where looks are everything. I have no doubt, that those who are breeding for a certain kind of eye, will in time be successful, if they are looking to produce more birds with a certain kind of eye.


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## mickey mouse

in answer to those who think that eyesign is only used for pigeons there was a vet in the s/w states who did use this for horses.
i used to have the article in my computer,but after changing machines can not seem to find it, even trying back on the net again. it was a very interesting piece on this and wanted to share this with those who are saying that they never saw it used, other than for pigeons.


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## Alamo

When it comes to "advice",on what to look for in a great racing pigeon,the one item that "Kills" me is the "One Pin Tail" theory....I have found out that it is a crock of beans...How do I know,you ask....Every time my birds bring back ferals flying with them,the ferals have the best one pin tail "tails"....So I guess,the feathering,body,bones,eyes,etc don`t mean a thing....All you need is a one pin tail racing pigeons....Alamo


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## First To Hatch

Hey Alamo, of all me one pin tails, only one survived the YB season.


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## hillfamilyloft

always wondered why this theory had merrit. You look at a bird when they are flying and the tail is always spread wide so the bird can steer and navigate through the air. One pin would not do them a bit of good. I have replace this theory with the "First bird to drop on the clock" theory. Seems to work better for me. It also looks even nicer than a "one pin tail". Thanks for the data. Finally some hard evidence.


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## Alamo

Another great one is,"birds that have white toe nails",are very good birds...Duh !! Any birds with white feathering can/will have some white toe nails....My REDS have either white or black....There are alot of WF`s,and splashes that are excellent racers/breeders....And it`s NOT because of the toe nails...Alamo


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## 2y4life

Another great article about this nonsense:

http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/2011/05/25/eyesign-only-in-pigeon-racing/

"In all of these theories never do I hear mention the one major requirement necessary for the racing pigeon to be successful: The ability to find his way home, “HOMING ABILITY”. The intelligence and navigation skills to be 100-600 miles from home and race and navigate to return home to his loft the same day. Without this ability to home and navigate, all the other qualities mean nothing. Yet the graders, teachers, master breeders, specialists, etc. never seem to be concerned about this one aspect of our sport.

Can they grade intelligence, heart, determination, motivation or desire just by handling a bird, opening his wing, looking at the throat or looking into the eyes? PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK! YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS AND REALLY BELIEVE THIS IS POSSIBLE! To spend your money and time applying these methods to achieve success is foolish."


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## mickey mouse

2y4life,

you keep posting these comments to throw newbie's off course for no good reason, because there is good in using eyesign, be it for breeding and or racing and can be found in babies in the nest, so if you have no knowledge of the subject,don't knock it.

where do you live.??? maybe i can set you up with someone who will help you see you errors on this wonderful helpful subject. believe me, it works and there is no need to ask for a standard on this, because there never will be one, so don't ask.
if you are not willing to learn, don't try and stop others by filling their minds with garbage.
i also had a friend who asked if i could do this on his race horses and all i told him was that i would not stand on a ladder trying to look at a horse and the second reason would be the length of time to see results. you'd have to have a never ending life to see results. don't knock it,if you don't know.

willing to help you, if you want it.?????


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## rpalmer

mickey mouse said:


> 2y4life,
> 
> you keep posting these comments to throw newbie's off course for no good reason, because there is good in using eyesign, be it for breeding and or racing and can be found in babies in the nest, so if you have no knowledge of the subject,don't knock it.


I checked two respected eye sign people's postings on the web. It took two minuets to see they did not even agree on the base eye colors. I chuckled and quit reading.

If eye sign theory can not even agree on the base colors of a birds eye then the theorist have a long way to go. To me this is just further proof that eye sign theory is just a way to kill time with ones birds.


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## rpalmer

gbhman said:


> I'm of the opinion that more people should have actually read the first post. After reading through this thread, all I can say is wow


You are right!! And the question has never been answered.


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## 2y4life

ace in the hole said:


> I think when they have two eyes that a good sign.





rpalmer said:


> I checked two respected eye sign people's postings on the web. It took two minuets to see they did not even agree on the base eye colors. I chuckled and quit reading.
> 
> If eye sign theory can not even agree on the base colors of a birds eye then the theorist have a long way to go. To me this is just further proof that eye sign theory is just a way to kill time with ones birds.





mickey mouse said:


> 2y4life,
> *believe me, it works and there is no need to ask for a standard on this, because there never will be one, so don't ask.*


That's why I chose not to respond to that guy. He basically says he 100% agree in eye sign but then goes on to say there is no standard, never will be, so don't ask. Yes, I will believe you Mickey Mouse that eye sign totally works because you told me so...and you told me you have absolutely no way to explain this to me or any logical person. The only thing these eye sign can absolutely tell you is that the bird has two eyes and if they're functioning properly or not. 

As for the original post, I will be absolutely honest. The bird has a nice rich orange eye and that's about it. Will it win a race? Is is a great breeder? I have no clue. Maybe Mickey Mouse can tell us what the eye means. Go ahead Mickey, shoot away. 

*AND* MelsLofts answered the original poster's question. Mel said the bird would be an excellent breeder.


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## mickey mouse

hi kastleloft,

your camera is far better than most of those who take eye pics and does get super mi-nute details for sure.
and the yellow beads or dots are what's forming the composite color of yellow over the base color of the c/c, which is black.
the c/c here is really - black -and being built up with an over-lay of yellow.
i hope those that have asked for this question to answered are happy with this. i would like to know who the experts were that could not agree on base colors of the eye.???
if this is pubic knowledge,why not print it here for all to see and learn from.???
maybe now we can move on to seeing hens eyes that would compliment these two cocks.


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## mickey mouse

your eye is easy w/a-and does not deserve an answer because it's not a racing pigeon.


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## 2y4life

mickey mouse said:


> your eye is easy w/a-and does not deserve an answer because it's not a racing pigeon.


Hey, I give you your due buddy. You can at least distinguish the difference in the breeds.


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## mickey mouse

why didn't you comment on my answer to question # 1 on this string.???? it's right ,you know, so do i get another atta boy.????
what state are you from.??? i think i know many of you realitives. !!! so now, why don't you post some of your birds eyes and i'll give you a quick run down on them and what they are capable of doing with the right loft manager, not necessarily you. give it a shot. what ya got to lose.???? make my life a little more interesting, now that i have you pegged.!!! oh, and the names of the pro's please, who don't know their colors,right.????


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## Kastle Loft

mickey mouse said:


> hi kastleloft,
> 
> your camera is far better than most of those who take eye pics and does get super mi-nute details for sure.
> and the yellow beads or dots are what's forming the composite color of yellow over the base color of the c/c, which is black.
> the c/c here is really - black -and being built up with an over-lay of yellow.
> i hope those that have asked for this question to answered are happy with this. i would like to know who the experts were that could not agree on base colors of the eye.???
> if this is pubic knowledge,why not print it here for all to see and learn from.???
> maybe now we can move on to seeing hens eyes that would compliment these two cocks.


Whew, 146 posts to get the specific answer to my original question. Thanks Mickey Mouse.

We can stop talking about it now if you want. I just wanted to know what the dots were. What they actually mean won't affect what my plans are for this cock bird. 

But I do plan to improve on the photos and may post some more if y'all want to continue to talk about them. haha


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## rpalmer

mickey mouse said:


> i would like to know who the experts were that could not agree on base colors of the eye.???
> if this is pubic knowledge,why not print it here for all to see and learn from.???
> maybe now we can move on to seeing hens eyes that would compliment these two cocks.


http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/Rob_Woollis.html

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/articles/iridology_2.htm


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## mickey mouse

2y4life said:


> There's no such thing as eye sign. Humans don't have it nor does any other animal in the animal kingdom. Only in pigeons do you see people so caught up in these "theories" that have absolutely no basis. Eyes only help with sight...nothing else. There's a good article about eye sign. It states that the whole eye sign thing is a load of bull. A great read.
> 
> Anyhow, a close shot of pigeons eyes are really cool to see; other than that, they do very little for me. And tail sign is bogus too, imo. You can't "look" at a animal and claim it is a champion. Champions can only prove their worth during competition, not in the show cage...unless you've got a show champion.


the above quote is all wrong, because a champion can be seen, -- without racing or breeding -- before hand.!!!! it's called stock sense or 6th sense and many people have it. as far as eyesign in people, doctors use it when you get your eyes checked. --- the people who try to confuse your thinking by using eyesign and eyesight as not being good are wrong, because they go hand in hand. if you don't have good eyesight, you won't have good eyesign, meaning there is a problem with you seeing where you're going so as not to walk into a wall or pole.
the birds have the same problem, but for them, they don't get the chance to get corrective lenses. instead they run into wires and poles, plus get to be hawk bait because of their poor vision.

so, now think about this, and what happened to those babies you loved so much and then dissapeared. where are they.????? where they all stupid or did they have another problem.??????????????????///


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## mickey mouse

rpalmer, you picked two guys who give opposite views on eyesign to those used here in the states. both are very hard to understand for those who know -- eyesign -- let alone a newbie or beginner. you can-not compare the teaching from europe or south africa to those of the states. it's like night and day and if you want to learn use info from here or canada where we all speak the same language and use the proper names for the proper parts of the eye and not in reverse as they do. both will get you so confused you won't know which end is up.
your best bet if you want to learn instead of critisize is to get a loupe and start with your birds and a good print out stuck to the loft wall. then, maybe when you see the light, you'll change your mine and become a -- believer !!!! it's never too later, no matter how old you are. see the light at the end of the tunnel, before it's too late for you.!!


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## rpalmer

mickey mouse said:


> rpalmer, you picked two guys who give opposite views on eyesign to those used here in the states. both are very hard to understand for those who know -- eyesign -- let alone a newbie or beginner. you can-not compare the teaching from europe or south africa to those of the states. it's like night and day and if you want to learn use info from here or canada where we all speak the same language and use the proper names for the proper parts of the eye and not in reverse as they do. both will get you so confused you won't know which end is up.
> your best bet if you want to learn instead of critisize is to get a loupe and start with your birds and a good print out stuck to the loft wall. then, maybe when you see the light, you'll change your mine and become a -- believer !!!! it's never too later, no matter how old you are. see the light at the end of the tunnel, before it's too late for you.!!


I'm not sure how base colors are different in different parts of the world. This was my point. Base colors. Maybe you will comment on this point.


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## mickey mouse

why don't you tell me what you think are base colors and how many there are.????
also tell me what they say because i am not going to read their stuff.

then tell me how many different shades of pearl there on and what the're called. then explain to me what you think violet is and why.


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## mickey mouse

well kastle,

i don't know what you could possiblly do to make you eyes better. they are great, but really don't have to be so big. half that size would be plenty and get more eyes per page.

let us know what your plans are and which hens we can contemplate that you will use. i missed your post before and don't know why and only saw as i went back one page.


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## rpalmer

mickey mouse said:


> why don't you tell me what you think are base colors and how many there are.????
> also tell me what they say because i am not going to read their stuff.
> 
> then tell me how many different shades of pearl there on and what the're called. then explain to me what you think violet is and why.


I'm not the expert, real or pretend. I just pointed out what to me as a non believer in eye sign theory a solid reason to keep my belief.

I am not testing you or worse, yanking your chain. There have been post stating that there is not a conscientious among the theorist. I pointed out what to me was a glaring example. And btw who do you recommend people turn to on the internet for the correct USA/Canadian information.

As for me .... pigeon anatomy does not change by geographical location. So I can not take this topic seriously with the exception of warning the new people about it being true.


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## Kastle Loft

mickey mouse said:


> well kastle,
> 
> i don't know what you could possiblly do to make you eyes better. they are great, but really don't have to be so big. half that size would be plenty and get more eyes per page.
> 
> let us know what your plans are and which hens we can contemplate that you will use. i missed your post before and don't know why and only saw as i went back one page.


When it comes to grading an eye by way of a photo, wouldn't bigger be better? Isn't this a case of more is better? What I'm aiming for is a way to get more detail and closer than we typically get to see. Is that pointless?


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## mickey mouse

rpalmer i just lost a note to you, but will tell that there is a big difference between birds from north country and the south. they are very different and you can take that as a fact.

now kastle, i was only thinking of saving space on the page, but after thinking about what you said, might make it easier for anyone new to learn if they could see it larger, so fire away with the hens.
just have to do a little something for a guy who just called me & be back.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

mickey mouse said:


> 2y4life,
> 
> you keep posting these comments to throw newbie's off course for no good reason, because there is good in using eyesign, be it for breeding and or racing and can be found in babies in the nest, so if you have no knowledge of the subject,don't knock it.
> 
> where do you live.??? maybe i can set you up with someone who will help you see you errors on this wonderful helpful subject. believe me, it works and there is *no need to ask for a standard on this, because there never will be one, so don't ask.*
> if you are not willing to learn, don't try and stop others by filling their minds with garbage.
> i also had a friend who asked if i could do this on his race horses and all i told him was that i would not stand on a ladder trying to look at a horse and the second reason would be the length of time to see results. *you'd have to have a never ending life to see results*. don't knock it,if you don't know.
> 
> willing to help you, if you want it.?????


 I think at the end of the day, the most important thing would be results. If one is a *"Believer*", and apparently that is one of the requirements for one to obtain results, I would think that it would be very obvious from the race results that the follower of this eye sign business would be on to something. But all the "evidence" provided by these "Believers" points towards needing a never ending life to see results, for most of us, that just seems like a long time. Just saying.....


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## Kal-El

If it's so hard, why not just conduct an experiment? Take two pairs, one with "excellent eyesign" and one with "outstanding performance [in the pedigrees]" and breed three rounds. Train and race the youngsters and evaluate. Heck, even race them as old birds! Let their records speak!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Kal-El said:


> If it's so hard, why not just conduct an experiment? Take two pairs, one with "excellent eyesign" and one with "outstanding performance [in the pedigrees]" and breed three rounds. Train and race the youngsters and evaluate. Heck, even race them as old birds! * Let their records speak! *


 That is my thinking, not trying to put down anyone's "religion" to a particular set of beliefs. I just find this "eyesign" requires a huge leap of faith. If one has chosen to follow this "belief" that is fine with me, I would just rather follow the race results and pair winners to winners. I find it works about 5 to 10% of the time, and that is pretty good odds in my book. The more generations of winner to winner one has, the better the odds that the following generations will have all the right stuff that goes into producing a winner. The goal would be to increase that percentage to maybe 10-15% of offspring are winners. (Could take a life time) 

Maybe a follower of this "eyesign" would rather pair a bird to another bird, based on the eyes, but for me, perhaps I am just too old fashioned, but I would rather just keep winners and forget about all the other stuff. After all, I really don't know what the "perfect" racing pigeon is suppose to look like. I know that a really good racer looks better every time he or she wins a race, but I am just not smart enough to pick a bird based on looks alone. After the YB race season is over, those that won diplomas are put in front of me, and then, and only then, do I allow their "looks" and "feel" to influence my choice. That is the way I feel about it, I don't require converts to my way of thinking in order to feel vindicated in my methods. 

It's just what it is, my personal madness if you will, no need for anyone else to accept my form of insanity.


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## orock

Couldn't been said any better Warren.


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## mickey mouse

*warren, I Going To Tell You This Once And Only Once.!!!!!! Don't Ever, Mis-quote Me Again. If You Think You Can Take Apart My Words And Re-arrange Them To Suite You, Think Again.!!!!! Now I Suggest That You, Re-read My Statement And Have Sink Into Your Head, The Word __ Horse --!!!!!! My Reference Was To My Friends --- Horses --- Not --- Pigeons ----. And For Those Who Keep Posting Or Mentioning Websites From Europe Or Africa As Being Correct Or Proper Or Knowledgeable, Think Again, Because All Of You Doing This Are Being Swayed And Not Using Your Own Heads Or Brains. Try And Learn From These Two Sites That What You Want To Learn From Is Being Quoted In --- Reverse ---. Once You Manage To Learn This, You Will Be On The Right Road To Learn What Is Needed For You To Succede. --- Do - Not - Let Anyone Here Stop You From Learning The Right Way Because Of Their Blindness And Un-willing Ways To Change Their Methods For Better Results In Breeding And Flying. P.s. Warren If You Have That Much Success, Do You Give Credit To Your Loft Manager.??????*


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## SmithFamilyLoft

mickey mouse said:


> *warren, I Going To Tell You This Once And Only Once.!!!!!!  Don't Ever, Mis-quote Me Again. If You Think You Can Take Apart My Words And Re-arrange Them To Suite You, Think Again.!!!!! Now I Suggest That You, Re-read My Statement And Have Sink Into Your Head, The Word __ Horse --!!!!!! My Reference Was To My Friends --- Horses --- Not --- Pigeons ----. And For Those Who Keep Posting Or Mentioning Websites From Europe Or Africa As Being Correct Or Proper Or Knowledgeable, Think Again, Because All Of You Doing This Are Being Swayed And Not Using Your Own Heads Or Brains. Try And Learn From These Two Sites That What You Want To Learn From Is Being Quoted In --- Reverse ---. Once You Manage To Learn This, You Will Be On The Right Road To Learn What Is Needed For You To Succede. --- Do - Not - Let Anyone Here Stop You From Learning The Right Way Because Of Their Blindness And Un-willing Ways To Change Their Methods For Better Results In Breeding And Flying.  P.s. Warren If You Have That Much Success, Do You Give Credit To Your Loft Manager.??????[/b]*


*


What success I have had, and not saying it has set the world on fire, but being what it is, I must give all the credit to the birds which actually accomplished the feat, and most importantly to those mentors both past and present, who shared with me what had worked for them. And yes my success I owe to others such as Lewis Burns my loft manager and guide. And to those who help clean my loft and train my birds. And perhaps most importantly, to my wife Karen who has supported me 100% in the pursuit of this passion. Any short comings in my results, I accept full responsibility for. ( I just don't think following your eye sign advice would advance my cause ) 

As far as misquoting, I simply posted your statements as they were written. I don't know how hitting the quote button is a mis-quote ?  

But now that you have shared your views as Mickey Mouse, and brought my loft manager into it. And you have suggested that anyone not following your line of thinking must either not have any brains, or may not be using them. Why don't you come out from behind the cartoon character, and share your major race accomplishments with us ? As my grandma use to say, "Talk is Cheap", in other words anyone can have an opinion, and you have strongly stated yours, but why not provide some documentation so that us brain dead, can fully appreciate the genius behind your stated opinions ? I am willing to concede I never really bought into this eye sign idea, but I am willing to try to keep an open mind for the sake fairness, and to encourage the exchange of ideas. So who are you, what combine do you fly in, where can we find your race results as a result of using eye sign. So that we can see with our own eyes, that your eye sign methods have led to as you say "Methods For Better Results In Breeding And Flying". This I would think would be far more effective then berating the readers for not using their brains.*


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## mickey mouse

*warren, I'm Going To Ask You To Put My Original Post Back Where It Was, Because After Looking Through Many Strings Did Not See It. You Being Moderator Have The Ability To Post Or Delete At Will, So Why Not Put It Back So That All Others Can See That You Not Only Mis-quoted, But Enlarged The Print To Show Just What You Wanted Others To See And Not What I Said. You Say You Want To Be Fair, Start By Putting It Back. *


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## Alamo

Long,long ago,I bought a few VCR videos on pigeons....One was "Best of the British"...The one loft that I was interested in learning about was the loft of Frank Tasker....By the way,he just passed away a few weeks ago....Frank had fantastic middle distance pigeons...His results were awsome...And he was flying against thousands of pigeons...In the video,the man interviewing Frank asked many questions about his methods...Frank went over 3 items in detail....His feeding method...His culling of pigeons with a bad throat...His method of grading the pigeons eyes.....The 2 points I was interested in was,the throat,and the eyes....To say his pigeons were "Superb" in their size,feather,structure etc,would not do them justice...They were incredibile....With all that said,Frank would CULL yb`s from these very pigeons,if the THROAT and EYES were not graded high....These pigeons that he was breeding from were all RACED...They were not bred for stock...They had to earn their way into the stock loft.....1st,I will tell you what he beleived in his throat theory....The "Curtain",is what the British call it...We call it the "Slit" that is in the top half of the birds beak...He beleived it should be closed,or if open,it should be very close to one another....And he meant "Very Close"....He would cull birds that had wide open slits...The windpipe should be "Oval" and very small,and be real "LOW",down the throat....I myself,when seeing pigeons that win from long distance,all had this in common with one another,no matter what loft I was in....And Frank only flew Middle Distance races....That`s how much he beleived in this theory...The other was "Eyesign"...His birds had fantastic eyes....But I will not go into this theory here,because like I have just told you above..HIS PIGEONS WERE AWSOME in body,feather,balance etc....The eyes & throat were HIS theories,on what "HELPED" his pigeons WIN....And win they did....His race results against hundreds of lofts & thousands of birds, were unmatched in Middle Distance Races....We must not "Fight" here about whether the EYES will make a pigeon WIN or not...But WE must look at our best pigeons,after the RACES are OVER,and SEE what they have in COMMON,with one another.....If we could have ALL the YB`s we lost this year,back home in the loft,I would bet a Million $$$ of Mel`s Money(not mine),because I don`t have any,that alot of those birds have good eyes,a good throat,etc....But they got lost for some reason...The parts of these pigeons,that we can`t see,is what makes them get lost...Or a combination of ALL these parts that are not quite GOOD enough....Alamo


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## mickey mouse

*OK WARREN, YOU HAVE MY APOLOGY FOR SAYING YOU GOT RID OF THE POST, BUT YOU DON'T FOR THE WAY YOU ENLARGED ONLY WHAT YOU WANTED OTHERS TO SEE. HERE IT IS BELOW, AS IT WAS WRITTEN BY ME ON MONDAY NOV.21,2011.*

2y4life,

you keep posting these comments to throw newbie's off course for no good reason, because there is good in using eyesign, be it for breeding and or racing and can be found in babies in the nest, so if you have no knowledge of the subject,don't knock it.

where do you live.??? maybe i can set you up with someone who will help you see you errors on this wonderful helpful subject. believe me, it works and there is no need to ask for a standard on this, because there never will be one, so don't ask.
if you are not willing to learn, don't try and stop others by filling their minds with garbage.
i also had a friend who asked if i could do this on his race horses and all i told him was that i would not stand on a ladder trying to look at a horse and the second reason would be the length of time to see results. you'd have to have a never ending life to see results. don't knock it,if you don't know.

willing to help you, if you want it.?????


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## hillfamilyloft

Alamo said:


> Long,long ago,I bought a few VCR videos on pigeons....One was "Best of the British"...The one loft that I was interested in learning about was the loft of Frank Tasker....By the way,he just passed away a few weeks ago....Frank had fantastic middle distance pigeons...His results were awsome...And he was flying against thousands of pigeons...In the video,the man interviewing Frank asked many questions about his methods...Frank went over 3 items in detail....His feeding method...His culling of pigeons with a bad throat...His method of grading the pigeons eyes.....The 2 points I was interested in was,the throat,and the eyes....To say his pigeons were "Superb" in their size,feather,structure etc,would not do them justice...They were incredibile....With all that said,Frank would CULL yb`s from these very pigeons,if the THROAT and EYES were not graded high....These pigeons that he was breeding from were all RACED...They were not bred for stock...They had to earn their way into the stock loft.....1st,I will tell you what he beleived in his throat theory....The "Curtain",is what the British call it...We call it the "Slit" that is in the top half of the birds beak...He beleived it should be closed,or if open,it should be very close to one another....And he meant "Very Close"....He would cull birds that had wide open slits...The windpipe should be "Oval" and very small,and be real "LOW",down the throat....I myself,when seeing pigeons that win from long distance,all had this in common with one another,no matter what loft I was in....And Frank only flew Middle Distance races....That`s how much he beleived in this theory...The other was "Eyesign"...His birds had fantastic eyes....But I will not go into this theory here,because like I have just told you above..HIS PIGEONS WERE AWSOME in body,feather,balance etc....The eyes & throat were HIS theories,on what "HELPED" his pigeons WIN....And win they did....His race results against hundreds of lofts & thousands of birds, were unmatched in Middle Distance Races....We must not "Fight" here about whether the EYES will make a pigeon WIN or not...But WE must look at our best pigeons,after the RACES are OVER,and SEE what they have in COMMON,with one another.....If we could have ALL the YB`s we lost this year,back home in the loft,I would bet a Million $$$ of Mel`s Money(not mine),because I don`t have any,that alot of those birds have good eyes,a good throat,etc....But they got lost for some reason...The parts of these pigeons,that we can`t see,is what makes them get lost...Or a combination of ALL these parts that are not quite GOOD enough....Alamo


Tasker on the videos that I have does not put much weight on eye sign. He does talk about the throat theory in detail. The throat theory makes sense in flying, but I am not sure about breeding. If when the bird was racing and young it had a good throat and race record it was brought to the breeding loft. My question is will it be a bad breeder if the throat for some reason changed due to tramma or stress? The genetic make up of the birds is still the same. The health may effect things. But if the bird is perfectly healthy after the throat change will the bird breed any worse. The phenotype may change but the genotype will still be the same.


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## calzephyr

It seems to me that there is a rather simple way to get a resolution to this difference of opinion. Here is my suggestion:

We have Warren (or another top racer/breeder) assemble a group of 10 birds. The group should consist of:

* Two birds that are Racing Champions, consistently win or place in the top 5%.
* Eight birds that are just average and always place in the middle of the pack.
* Two birds that consistently placed in the bottom 10%. 

Have Micky Mouse come over and look at all ten birds (not knowing which is which). Or, post nice quality photos of the eyes of the ten birds.

If Mickey can correctly identify the two Champions, and also correctly identify the two "bottom ten percent" birds, just by looking at their eyes....Then Mickey's theory is credible and we all buy him a round of refreshments at the next State Convention. We also post his theory as a "sticky" on this forum and give him kudos for his talents.

Sounds fair enough. 

If Warren, or anyone else, is up for it we could break some new ground here and develop a quality experiment that might answer some of the questions that many people have about this fascinating eye theory.

Mickey, are you up for it?


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## hillfamilyloft

mickey mouse said:


> *OK WARREN, YOU HAVE MY APOLOGY FOR SAYING YOU GOT RID OF THE POST, BUT YOU DON'T FOR THE WAY YOU ENLARGED ONLY WHAT YOU WANTED OTHERS TO SEE. HERE IT IS BELOW, AS IT WAS WRITTEN BY ME ON MONDAY NOV.21,2011.*
> 
> 2y4life,
> 
> you keep posting these comments to throw newbie's off course for no good reason, because there is good in using eyesign, be it for breeding and or racing and can be found in babies in the nest, so if you have no knowledge of the subject,don't knock it.
> 
> where do you live.??? maybe i can set you up with someone who will help you see you errors on this wonderful helpful subject. believe me, it works and there is no need to ask for a standard on this, because there never will be one, so don't ask.
> if you are not willing to learn, don't try and stop others by filling their minds with garbage.
> i also had a friend who asked if i could do this on his race horses and all i told him was that i would not stand on a ladder trying to look at a horse and the second reason would be the length of time to see results. you'd have to have a never ending life to see results. don't knock it,if you don't know.
> 
> willing to help you, if you want it.?????


I think many of us are saying that we do not put much weight on eye sign, not that we are filling others with garbage telling them they are all wrong. All we are saying is that we do not use it as the all mighty to select birds. To each their own. I think Warren is just saying stand up and show us the money. If eye sign is the holly grail, prove it. Many in Europe do not even have a word for eye sign, yet they win races against thousands. Two things that set us apart from fanciers in Belg and Netherlands is that two of the most used selection methods we use are way down their list. That being pedigree and eye sign. Many do not even keep pedigrees and only did when it was demanded by the americans and those from China that need them. I think as long as we use physical traits to judge our birds, even the top pigeons in the world will fall short in one area or the other. The key area they will never fall down in is results. I may at some time use eye sign to select birds, but I guarantee it will be selecting between two winners and not two random untested birds. I think their is use in selection, but selecting a non-proven birds over a proven bird for any reason is in my opinion not showing me the error of my ways.


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## mickey mouse

*yes calzephry, i'm ready when you are*


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## mickey mouse

*never saw that many green lights blazing on the same page before. must be something going on.!!!!??????*


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## APF_LOFT

no more argue about eye sign.

just visit your local ophthalmologist for answers


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## mickey mouse

*pinoy, this is a discussion site for racing pigeons and not fancies. we don't go to the fancy site to tell you how to run your business, so why are you here telling us anything.????????????? if this does not interest you, just don't read it, but there are people here who like this and want to learn. if you don't, so be it. *


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## rpalmer

As much as it pains me ... I agree with Warren. Mickey Mouse should just show us the race sheets of his wins.


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## APF_LOFT

mickey mouse, are you pigeon ophthalmologist? hehehe


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## APF_LOFT

can you identify if my fantail is a good racer?


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## re lee

Looking at this page from the world of wings You get some idea of the eye sighn in relation To the breeding eye. AND there are several pictures to look at of the eye. Plus some beliefs in the eye and othere concepts of the racing pigeon IDEA. www.pigeoncenter.org/toppage13.htm If you click this link and read and scroll down You can decide on your own how the eye sighn may help in selecting your birds. But as it says in the readings only after other parts that are looked at in the bird they eye then is looked at.


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## dublin boy

mickey mouse said:


> *warren, I Going To Tell You This Once And Only Once.!!!!!! Don't Ever, Mis-quote Me Again. chill out man , we are only talking .*


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## Bluecheckard

Ok Mickey Mouse if you are so sure of what you are talking about here. stop all the crap talk and show some proof/result of your so called eye sign theory.... why not show us your results here.


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## Alamo

Mel`s Loft...A regular here,has had some outstanding results in Special Races etc....I think Mel should put the eyes of 10 pigeons here...5 of the eyes are from birds who have SCORED in special races...The other 5 eyes,are from birds that only flew well,but never won any races etc....Then we can all TRY to pick out the 5 that did...Lets see who knows more or less about what it takes to make a pigeon a winner....Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft

would love to have someone put something together. I would like to take a crack at eye sign. See how well I do. My thoughts are if you put 5 top racers against five crud birds that I would probably pic 50/50. I do not know anything about eye sign. I will go with the probability here. Now if you let me use race results, I bet I could choose 100% if yo let me look at the band numbers.


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## re lee

Did anybody read the post i made earlyer It has a link to the world of wings and some info on the eye sign concept WITH pictures of the different eyes And the idea that the bird does need more then just eye sign.


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## Thunderbird Racing

re lee said:


> Did anybody read the post i made earlyer It has a link to the world of wings and some info on the eye sign concept WITH pictures of the different eyes And the idea that the bird does need more then just eye sign.


I did, thanks for the link!


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## Crazy Pete

Yes eye did Randy did a good job in explaining the eye, better than most do.
Dave


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## rpalmer

re lee said:


> Did anybody read the post i made earlyer It has a link to the world of wings and some info on the eye sign concept WITH pictures of the different eyes And the idea that the bird does need more then just eye sign.


I did and got confused at first because it shows 4 circles and what I had read in the past pointed out 5. But I think the 5th one is the muscle at the outer most part of the eye. Sound right???


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## hillfamilyloft

re lee said:


> Did anybody read the post i made earlyer It has a link to the world of wings and some info on the eye sign concept WITH pictures of the different eyes And the idea that the bird does need more then just eye sign.


A bit confused here. Maybe I am thinking too strongly that there are some on this post that hold eye sign as the holy grail. Just seems that is what is coming out when they post. I would be a bit more excepting of eye sign if one it had scientific or statistical basis and two if race results were not so discounted by some of the eye sign experts here. If someone here could show some correlation between eye sign and race results like others have shown throat and race results, lineage and race results etc. My methods have shown both statistics and results to show I am on the right track. And yes I will tend to listen to guys like Warren who has won the Flamingo twice, and follow lineage like Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, and Clausen who have won big races. The winning birds that I bring back to race are also breeding quality birds. Ex. My 'Primavera" who bred 7th club, 14th combine for Flap and also 25th vs 410 pigeons in club races in ABQ. My 2nd and 3rd place birds this year were off a brother and sister team from Ace that had club and combine wins and top 10s. One was even off Kahuna who bred my futurity winner. I am open to other selection methods, but do not tell me I am feeding people full of crud about mine when I can show you the money and the results. The only thing I am asking is for you to show how the eye sign theory can back up your claims. "Just cause I said" does not win pigeon racer or convince others you are right. Many have traveled the eye sign path. I am just looking for someone that has reached the top with it.


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## re lee

hillfamilyloft said:


> A bit confused here. Maybe I am thinking too strongly that there are some on this post that hold eye sign as the holy grail. Just seems that is what is coming out when they post. I would be a bit more excepting of eye sign if one it had scientific or statistical basis and two if race results were not so discounted by some of the eye sign experts here. If someone here could show some correlation between eye sign and race results like others have shown throat and race results, lineage and race results etc. My methods have shown both statistics and results to show I am on the right track. And yes I will tend to listen to guys like Warren who has won the Flamingo twice, and follow lineage like Vic Miller, Bob Kinney, and Clausen who have won big races. The winning birds that I bring back to race are also breeding quality birds. Ex. My 'Primavera" who bred 7th club, 14th combine for Flap and also 25th vs 410 pigeons in club races in ABQ. My 2nd and 3rd place birds this year were off a brother and sister team from Ace that had club and combine wins and top 10s. One was even off Kahuna who bred my futurity winner. I am open to other selection methods, but do not tell me I am feeding people full of crud about mine when I can show you the money and the results. The only thing I am asking is for you to show how the eye sign theory can back up your claims. "Just cause I said" does not win pigeon racer or convince others you are right. Many have traveled the eye sign path. I am just looking for someone that has reached the top with it.


 Myself and many who have posted to this thread HASNEVER said the eye sign becomes the holy grail. But as you have now named names. A person must look at what birds they do have off those people named. Was those birds tested was those birds off the better birds ECT, It is a well known fact that when buying birds And wanting to get better birds you go to one of the persons KNOWN to have those type of birds. And to be able to select birds from there that are needed to help your program. Just getting birds from That same person does NO good. As every loft has birds that look good on paper and are bred from there best But have no value in breeding or racing. As to people who SHOW pigeons the specilty clubs there meets have the better birds in show For some of them to show in the other shows They most often win easy. As the lesser birds just can not compete. So many just show with what some call the big boys. And They have top competition. year after year. Same as racing in the smaller clubs Yes a person can do good Then say they move to another area where the birds are better and all of a sudden they can not win a 1 bird race. Because there best was just best at the small local level. They did not try to work there program to the top as the only top they saw was a small circle. It takes the whole bird to be good If final selection comes by some by the eye and it works for them I am OK with that. It is easy to raise a pigeon. And if a person raised 100 and select the top 10 perecent that would be 10 birds. But if a person already had a set loft Then those 10 could be 5 or 8 not needed birds after they raced. As some years you only raise 1 bird you would keep over It really is selection NOT some name, As with race birds face it there is a new fad almost ever year. Old joe won big in this race and charlie bought a few birds from him. NOW charlie is selling off spring for x amount of money and promoting the name. It does not work that way. It takes years to get a few birds off the best in the world To build a loft And each race ever won if race over there is often a different winner that day. WEATHER does change the results As does the mood in the birds desire that day.


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## Thunderbird Racing

for those that say that eyesign is not used in any other animal, check this out.

http://www.equineiridology.com/


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## dublin boy

come on mickey mouse, we are all waiting, show us your race results .


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## hillfamilyloft

Thunderbird Racing said:


> for those that say that eyesign is not used in any other animal, check this out.
> 
> http://www.equineiridology.com/


The article seems to tie eye sign with the health of the horse. I agree a good sharp eye defines the health of a pigeon and then in tern helps the results of the pigeon. I do not think any of us dispute health through the eyes. What is in question here is if we can look at the "eye sign" of two mature breeders and put them together to produce winning offspring. If both have healthy eyes you have a better chance because you have healthy birds. Now, can you choose better pairings then the birds can by using eye theory? I guess you could also argue that if you put winner to winner that you are also putting the two healthiest birds together. One thing I know is that if I breed winner to winner that I am not breeding an inferior racer in the mix. I might be if I use eye sign. Not all winners will breed winners, but I will never breed an inferior racer into my family. I am bringing 7 birds home to the stock loft. I have not seen them or handled them since I shipped them off at 30 days. I am brining them back only on results. When they are here I will assess their health and then breed accordingly using my criteria. The main criteria being what crosses I know works and what traits I want to preserve.


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## Matt Bell

Many are asking for people's race record whom use eyesign. I would suggest Jack Barkel does very well racing, both one lofts and in his own combine and he uses eyesign, also developed what are termed his 'lemons' yellow colored racers doing this. So he uses eyesign and races rare colors...Also he put out a challenge and put his money where his mouth was...read about it at the bottom of the page in this link. 

http://http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/barkel.php


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## Matt Bell

Hmmm not sure why but my norton says that site is known malicious site when I click the link...Have not had any problems with it but I don't know why it is saying that.


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## hillfamilyloft

Not to preach my theory but thought I would give some of those who are interested on how I select what comes back into my loft. The main theme this year is to preserve the "54s" bloodline from the birds that was killed the other day in my shipping crisis. Then I am am loosing for key birds that are consistent or from blood that I know works. Oh yea and race record. 
Bird 1-LL 922 1st 250m 364b (Race winner and two 1st to the loft). He is a grandson of Kahuna and Ed both foundation cock birds. 
Bird 2-LL 940 8th 150m 341b, 23rd 312m 351b, 2 first to lofts (she is off a son of Tiger who has bred quality birds and Millie my sister of my 200 mile winner 09. They bred top 10 birds the year before)
Bird 3-LL 1002 3rd 230m 180b (Off Kahuna and 5415 a solid racer from Mark. Sister of killed bird)
Bird 4-LL 1062 2nd 230m 180b, 27th 279m 159b, 43rd 200m 251b (son of 5416 the killed bird x grand-daughter of Kahuna)
Bird 5-LL 1072 18th, 26th, 34th, 34th, 44th, two 1st and two 2nd to loft. (son of Kahuna and sibling of LL 1002)
Bird 6- LL 1024 8th 230m 180b, 16th 100m 192b, 24th 290m 231b, 45th 100m 245 b,( off 5416)
Bird 7 Bonus- about forgot about this one. A grizzle and grand-child of Ed (This bird is off a son of Ed and a grizzle that were both top 10 from 500 miles next morning. I am looking for a pair of grizzle birds for fun). The bird also flew well during the season with a few top 10%. Put it with a splash bird until I can find it a mate. 

The "54" blooded birds will be crossed together to protect the bloodline. It is also the 4th bloodline I will be working with. I then will work to cross into the 801 and Ed blood. They will be a cross between my "08" blood and Marks "54s". Keeping with what works. I may cross one back in with Kahuna. I have a few key breeders without mates this year that I may put the other to. Thats how I select. First race sheet then look to what has worked. One of these days I will have Beiche or one of you Eye Sign experts come and pair them up for me, but rest assured you will only have top birds to select from. Makes your work a lot easier.


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## hillfamilyloft

Matt Bell said:


> Many are asking for people's race record whom use eyesign. I would suggest Jack Barkel does very well racing, both one lofts and in his own combine and he uses eyesign, also developed what are termed his 'lemons' yellow colored racers doing this. So he uses eyesign and races rare colors...Also he put out a challenge and put his money where his mouth was...read about it at the bottom of the page in this link.
> 
> http://http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/barkel.php


Watched his video. I thought he was a bit nuts to be honest. They guy was hard to understand. Like he was speaking in tongues. Maybe I just did not spend enough time to learn the jargon.


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## Matt Bell

hillfamilyloft said:


> Watched his video. I thought he was a bit nuts to be honest. They guy was hard to understand. Like he was speaking in tongues. Maybe I just did not spend enough time to learn the jargon.


I haven't watched the video...didn't know there was one there haha. I just read the stuff on the site. There are a couple of the 'games' you guys were wanting with a bunch of eyes shown and then the results of those birds listed later. Its interesting.


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## Crazy Pete

I had to google it to get there, very interesting article.
Dave


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## rpalmer

Matt Bell said:


> Many are asking for people's race record whom use eyesign. I would suggest Jack Barkel does very well racing, both one lofts and in his own combine and he uses eyesign, also developed what are termed his 'lemons' yellow colored racers doing this. So he uses eyesign and races rare colors...Also he put out a challenge and put his money where his mouth was...read about it at the bottom of the page in this link.
> 
> http://http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/barkel.php


No just Mickey Mouse's. He also said Jack is wrong and doesn't know the proper names to the parts of the eye under investigation.


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## Matt Bell

I have seen Warren has weighed in on this topic. Also have seen that he follows a lot of what Van Breeman writes/believes in yet he either doesn't know or has failed to mention Van Breeman and his eyesign (or I missed that post, also possible). I found this:

http://http://www.albertaclassic.com/eyes/breemen.php


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## hillfamilyloft

I think the main difference here is that with eye sign, theory pushes selection, with the basket method, results push selection. Now if you take results first then bring in birds and then select based on eye sign, throat, tail etc, you are still using results to make your first decision on what to bring in. My thought is after you bring in top birds any method should work. That is if you believe in the "like breeds like" theory. Shearleakens sp? lets his birds for the most part choose their own mates. He don't do so bad. There have been a few times when I will put two brothers or sisters in a section with potential mates and let them choose. I let my initial 12 birds pair up on their own. Ed x Charlotte still together bred numerous winners including my futurity winner, Kahuna x Cutie Pie stayed together until she died, they bred numerous 1st place birds, Tiger Big Bertha until she went AWOL bred winners and foundation birds, Mr. and Mrs. C bred me a high points bird. Only two pairs did not pan out. Two other hens have bred me top 10 birds with other mates though. I am a firm believer in "Like breeds like" and the basket method.


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## hillfamilyloft

Matt Bell said:


> I haven't watched the video...didn't know there was one there haha. I just read the stuff on the site. There are a couple of the 'games' you guys were wanting with a bunch of eyes shown and then the results of those birds listed later. Its interesting.


The video shows eye comparisons and the like. One of these days when the kids are grown I will go out there and assess my birds on eye and throat etc. Was looking at my hens yesterday and they are starting to look like clones. Thinking that many of the traits they will have will be common ones. Many are beginning to have common ancestory due to results.


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## ERIC K

Yes I looked at that game and think I posted it earlier. Interesting. There was a guy named Henry W Sadewater JR(he has pasted away)that could go into someone loft that has good records and pick your best bird, or birds .Tell you and most of the time he was correct matching your own resultes. Don't know how he did is but there is a web site about him.http://angelfire.com/il2/heinie. I haven't read any of if yet but just thought you all might be interested.


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## re lee

hillfamilyloft said:


> The video shows eye comparisons and the like. One of these days when the kids are grown I will go out there and assess my birds on eye and throat etc. Was looking at my hens yesterday and they are starting to look like clones. Thinking that many of the traits they will have will be common ones. Many are beginning to have common ancestory due to results.


Wouldnt that be a bad thing I learned along time agoe You do not want to get where your birds all look alike. As when they do They may have some quality. But they all have near the same FAULTS. And the idea is fault offset when breeding. But that is what I learned.


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## ERIC K

I just started reading and find his discription of body conformation great and the eye stuff is good too.


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## ERIC K

A good read too. http://www.racingpigeondigest.com/archives/featured_articles/13


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## Matt Bell

ERIC K said:


> Yes I looked at that game and think I posted it earlier. Interesting. There was a guy named Henry W Sadewater JR(he has pasted away)that could go into someone loft that has good records and pick your best bird, or birds .Tell you and most of the time he was correct matching your own resultes. Don't know how he did is but there is a web site about him.http://angelfire.com/il2/heinie. I haven't read any of if yet but just thought you all might be interested.


Yep, I had an old timer give me the Sadewater stuff, thats what I started trying to study eyesign with, then college came and real life started...still have the bug just not the time to get back into birds...it will come though!


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## hillfamilyloft

re lee said:


> Wouldnt that be a bad thing I learned along time agoe You do not want to get where your birds all look alike. As when they do They may have some quality. But they all have near the same FAULTS. And the idea is fault offset when breeding. But that is what I learned.


I guess it depends on what you look for when they all look alike. I think it is more of a stock sense thing. My best looking hen Rose bred me a combine winner. My best looking cock bird Maverick won a futurity. So if they all look like them two that is all right with me. Size is probably the most similar thing going on in my loft. When I have a bird that is large or small they stick out. Some traits you also do not want to offset. Just like what is viewed as good in eye sign. If you were breeding for that trait, to offset it would be defeating your purpose. If I only keep winners or breeders of winners in the loft and they all start looking alike then so be it. That is the conformation of a winner. You can go to a loft and tell right away they are in trouble. It looks like a hodge podge of birds, big small, long cast, pear shaped etc. Winners come in all shapes and sizes, but there is a point. I think the point here to debate is who knows what a fault is? I am sure know matter how good the bird is as a racer someones selection method would find fault in the bird.


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## re lee

hillfamilyloft said:


> I guess it depends on what you look for when they all look alike. I think it is more of a stock sense thing. My best looking hen Rose bred me a combine winner. My best looking cock bird Maverick won a futurity. So if they all look like them two that is all right with me. Size is probably the most similar thing going on in my loft. When I have a bird that is large or small they stick out. Some traits you also do not want to offset. Just like what is viewed as good in eye sign. If you were breeding for that trait, to offset it would be defeating your purpose. If I only keep winners or breeders of winners in the loft and they all start looking alike then so be it. That is the conformation of a winner. You can go to a loft and tell right away they are in trouble. It looks like a hodge podge of birds, big small, long cast, pear shaped etc. Winners come in all shapes and sizes, but there is a point. I think the point here to debate is who knows what a fault is? I am sure know matter how good the bird is as a racer someones selection method would find fault in the bird.


Then what does the word CLONE mean to you. CLONE does mean it looks alike. Feather condition is even something to look for. FAULT. . And you said WINNERS COME IN ALL SHAPES AND SIZES. But then you said YOUR BIRDS are starting to look like CLONES. That means they are not different shapes and sizes. Putting a bird over one that did well but not as well as the other IS NOT that trying to offset a fault. Putting a slightly larger bird over a smaller bird IS not that off setting a fault. Puting a so called winner over a winner Does that mean all the birds have to be winners. WHAT made that bird A so called winner. Everything down to the feathering made up the seen looks then heart the will to fly home. You wants to off set eyes As to color as violet to violet over a short time You get that faded more pearl eyed bird Eye sign is seperate from that. If you look for that. A yellow eye orange Agin same eye color over same eye color over time cause what. White flight over white flight. BLUE bar over blue bar. What happens. After some time the blue gets a sooty blue. Long legged birds over long legged birds You get a loft of long legged birds. Some kind of balance to body structures And race results . But this is hard to say and see But you know you do not just look at race sheets for breed birds. As if you did then your birds would not be clones. unless they all came from a very tight family. And if they did that and were that good Then you would have they holy grail of pigeons


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## hillfamilyloft

Re Lee
My winners are starting to look alike. Like Clones. I did say that winners come in different shapes and sizes, but I was not referring to mine. I was looking at my breeders that I have in the loft right now. I have 10 of 25 cocks that have bred first place birds. 21 of those 25 have bred or have raced in the top 10. Only 2 cocks have not bred top 10% birds. 7 of my 22 hens have bred winners. 17 have raced or bred top 10 birds only one hen has not bred top 10%. Over and over in this post my winners to winners method has been hit by critics, and every time I give evidence of how it is working for me. In six years of breeding and using my methods, I have 17 breeders in the loft that have bred 1st place birds. 37 birds have bred or raced in the top 10. A bird that does not breed or race well is a fault in my book. Not a physical fault but a performance fault. I think we are all on the same page here. The difference is that some drive selection by traits and some drive selection by race results. Those who use both might have the advantage. What I am saying is that I will never let physical traits take precedence over race results like some in here are trying to convince me to do. I someone were to come in and pair my 50 birds up using eye sign, tail, vent, wing, etc, I would expect good results. Not because of the methods used, but because 37 of the 50 have produced top 10 birds and all but a couple 10% birds. As for my birds coming from a tight family, most can be traced back to a dozen key birds or so. As I select due to performance the strongest lineage shows in the physical appearance.


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## mikel

all of us wanted to be winners in every race ,for me its just respecting the way other people choose their birds,it is THEIR loft,they can do what they think is best for their loft,if they are doing good using eye sign then good for them,if they are doing good using the winners to winners pairing then good for them,what ever you do to your loft is your own,it will always go to your taste or experience


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Re Lee
> My winners are starting to look alike. Like Clones. I did say that winners come in different shapes and sizes, but I was not referring to mine. I was looking at my breeders that I have in the loft right now. I have 10 of 25 cocks that have bred first place birds. 21 of those 25 have bred or have raced in the top 10. Only 2 cocks have not bred top 10% birds. 7 of my 22 hens have bred winners. 17 have raced or bred top 10 birds only one hen has not bred top 10%. Over and over in this post my winners to winners method has been hit by critics, and every time I give evidence of how it is working for me. In six years of breeding and using my methods, I have 17 breeders in the loft that have bred 1st place birds. 37 birds have bred or raced in the top 10. A bird that does not breed or race well is a fault in my book. Not a physical fault but a performance fault. I think we are all on the same page here. The difference is that some drive selection by traits and some drive selection by race results. Those who use both might have the advantage. *What I am saying is that I will never let physical traits take precedence over race results like some in here are trying to convince me to do. *I someone were to come in and pair my 50 birds up using eye sign, tail, vent, wing, etc, I would expect good results. Not because of the methods used, but because 37 of the 50 have produced top 10 birds and all but a couple 10% birds. As for my birds coming from a tight family, most can be traced back to a dozen key birds or so. As I select due to performance the strongest lineage shows in the physical appearance.



You articulated this very well. I agree with you 100%. I think that others feel they know what the perfect racing pigeon should look like. I am thinking that is only true if they are trying to breed a racing pigeon for the show ring, so that the bird conforms to the perception of what is "perfect" from the judges perspective. 

Like you, I'm not really sure what the perfect pigeon will look like, since it has not been hatched yet. Like I stated before, I wonder what would happen if such a bird was hatched into a typical fancier's loft ? If it did not conform to some of the fancier's preconceived ideas as to what the idea pigeon would look like, would the bird be culled because it's eyes, tail, wings, etc were different ?

Just keep doing what you are doing, your results are starting to speak for themselves, where as some of your critics only have theories. Yours is a road less traveled, and the more victories you accumulate, the more that arm chair theorists, want to disparage your methods, just pay them no mind.


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## mickey mouse

*just received a copy of brad la verns book-- the eye and orinentation --. for all those that thought it was something other than a book on --eyesign ___ you are wrong, because it is *** all about eyesign worded to try and confuse you from the real truth. this book was sent to me from a friend who wanted me to read it and see if there was anything new and revealing that would shed more light on this fasinating subject. come to find out, there is nothing new,just a repetition of all things already printed and in use for many generations of pigeon breeding. for those who have it, you will find that it confirms all aspects of -- of eyesign --and those who know the subject will see this, beginning on page 11 in last paragraph with the words ::: the sun was shinning through the windows ::.*


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## V-John

Before I read this thread, can someone give me a quick rundown (Readers Digest version) of the contraversy over Eyesign? I know that there is one, but I'm not quite understanding what the differences of opinon is all about. Why is it so special? Why do some people put so much stock into it? 
Thanks!


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## 2y4life

V-John said:


> Before I read this thread, can someone give me a quick rundown (Readers Digest version) of the contraversy over Eyesign? I know that there is one, but I'm not quite understanding what the differences of opinon is all about. Why is it so special? Why do some people put so much stock into it?
> Thanks!


Simply put, those that believe in the eye sign theory believe you can look at the make up of a birds eye and know if it will be a good breeder, bad breeder, champion breeder, along with if the bird is a good bird etc.


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## V-John

2y4life said:


> Simply put, those that believe in the eye sign theory believe you can look at the make up of a birds eye and know if it will be a good breeder, bad breeder, champion breeder, along with if the bird is a good bird etc.


Huh. Ok, that's kinda cool. I'm not seeing any logic in that though. (Not trying to be arguementive, just trying to learn a bit about it...) 
Along with whether or not the bird is going to be a good breeder, can you tell something about whether or not the bird will be a good performing bird? (Like a good flyer/racer?)

What attributes of the eye are we looking at that determine whether or not the bird will be good? 

Thanks!


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## 2y4life

V-John said:


> Huh. Ok, that's kinda cool. I'm not seeing any logic in that though. (Not trying to be arguementive, just trying to learn a bit about it...)
> Along with whether or not the bird is going to be a good breeder, can you tell something about whether or not the bird will be a good performing bird? (Like a good flyer/racer?)
> 
> What attributes of the eye are we looking at that determine whether or not the bird will be good?
> 
> Thanks!


I'm with you and supposedly yes, you can tell if the bird is going to be a good racer or not, long distance or short.


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## mickey mouse

*i posted this four years ago, but will do it again for those that are interested .http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm*


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## rpalmer

mickey mouse said:


> *i posted this four years ago, but will do it again for those that are interested .http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm*


So why not do away with the bold print and just post your race results. Because without those your words mean nothing. Words, ideas and theories don't win races. The birds do. So show us the race sheets.


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## mickey mouse

*this was something that i now found on one of the other strings. i reposted it for those who were asking for info. if you don't, just don't read it. no big deal, take it or leave it.*


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## rpalmer

mickey mouse said:


> *this was something that i now found on one of the other strings. i reposted it for those who were asking for info. if you don't, just don't read it. no big deal, take it or leave it.*


So you are going to post anything except race results. Fine. Take care.


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## ace in the hole

I went through many of my birds yesterday. Checking wing, feather, eye &&&&&. What I found in checking the eyesign is that half sisters 836 & 620 have the worst eyes in the loft. Yet they have produced many winners and top 10% birds for myself and Hillfamilyloft. In 2009 eight of their young flew in the ABQ and with 300+ birds per race five of the eight had top 10% placements. But, now in checking their young I found that many of them have good to great eyesign.

There is not now nor will there ever be any one thing that will tell you weather a bird will breed or race well better than race results. If I stated that all of my best racers and breeders had a butt shaped like a pair I know someone out there would be checking all of there birds butts.


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## Melsloft

ace in the hole said:


> I went through many of my birds yesterday. Checking wing, feather, eye &&&&&. What I found in checking the eyesign is that half sisters 836 & 620 have the worst eyes in the loft. Yet they have produced many winners and top 10% birds for myself and Hillfamilyloft. In 2009 eight of their young flew in the ABQ and with 300+ birds per race five of the eight had top 10% placements. But, now in checking their young I found that many of them have good to great eyesign.
> 
> There is not now nor will there ever be any one thing that will tell you weather a bird will breed or race well better than race results. If I stated that all of my best racers and breeders had a butt shaped like a pair I know someone out there would be checking all of there birds butts.


the point is how do u know they are WORST eyes? do u know what to look for in good eyes LOL


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## hillfamilyloft

Melsloft said:


> the point is how do u know they are WORST eyes? do u know what to look for in good eyes LOL


Funny how some will preach eye sign and that it is "all that" yet when others do it to rate their birds they then discount the with "do you know what you are doing" when they find something that goes against the theory. I find with race records selection is pretty clear. They either win or they don't. Also with eye sign there seems to be as many different recipes as we have cooks. Who really is the eye sign expert anyway? Mark knows his poop. Now me on the other hand, I own a loupe and have looked at my birds, but could not tell you anything that I was looking at.


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## Alamo

I would bet that* Ace *is missing something important when checking the pair of birds that is producing VG racing pigeons...If you have an eye sign box,you will be able to see more...I don`t have one,but I remember a guy who did,and many years ago,I looked at some eyes of my birds in it...It was amazing what you can see...I think ACE`s pair have great eyes,PLUS everything else that is needed,or the YB`s out of them wouldn`t be that good of racers....Alamo


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## ace in the hole

Melsloft said:


> the point is how do u know they are WORST eyes? do u know what to look for in good eyes LOL


Yes I do. I wish I had a good enough camera so I could post good pics of their's and their youngs eyes. 

836 has a very thin inner circle/eye sign ring that is very broken were the Iris comes right down to the puple all around and poor Iris color.

620 does have good/bright Iris color but litterly no inner circle/eye sign ring at all. The Iris comes right down to the puple.


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## hillfamilyloft

Alamo said:


> I would bet that* Ace *is missing something important when checking the pair of birds that is producing VG racing pigeons...If you have an eye sign box,you will be able to see more...I don`t have one,but I remember a guy who did,and many years ago,I looked at some eyes of my birds in it...It was amazing what you can see...I think ACE`s pair have great eyes,PLUS everything else that is needed,or the YB`s out of them wouldn`t be that good of racers....Alamo


What is good about 620 is that she is off Warren's stock that won him the Flamingo. Chances are the Flamingo winner has the same lousy eye.


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## hillfamilyloft

Same with 836. They are both off of good stock and have bred top 10 and 10% birds. Why do we need to put them in a box to try and justify the eye sign stuff when they have shown their worth in the breeding loft. Seems like we are not defending their race and breeding record for 620 was a money winner at 300, but the fact that they may not have good eye sign and it may be meaningless.


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## ace in the hole

Alamo said:


> I would bet that* Ace *is missing something important when checking the pair of birds that is producing VG racing pigeons...If you have an eye sign box,you will be able to see more...I don`t have one,but I remember a guy who did,and many years ago,I looked at some eyes of my birds in it...It was amazing what you can see...I think ACE`s pair have great eyes,PLUS everything else that is needed,or the YB`s out of them wouldn`t be that good of racers....Alamo



I do not have an eye sign box. I check my birds with a loop outside with the birds eye facing directly into the sun on a bright day. I have been looking at racing pigeons eyes for twenty years. I have read articals and watched videos on eye sign. I have also learned from club members who were big on eye sign. 

I handle and check every part of every breeder in my loft. I have made a record for each bird noteing every part of the bird as poor, ave, good, excelent, long, short, ext. I use this when pairing and have found none of them to be 100%. It has taken many years of breeding to make these birds and just like a zipper frill will still pop up so will the types and traits of the birds that came before them.


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## hillfamilyloft

When I had both 620 and 836 in my loft in 09 this is their top 10 and 10% breeding record.
620 bred: 4th, 7th, 35th, 36th Bred Josepe's 1006 that was 8th club 15th combine this year
836 bred: 7th, 27th, 28th

Why do birds that breed top 10 birds need a good eye?


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## Alamo

Hill Family...I don`t have the answer...I can only go by what I see...The man who mentored me here,did NOT beleive in eye sign....But when I asked to handle his TOP 5 long distance cocks,I looked at them,and they had eyes that were amasing...I asked Joe,"I thought you didn`t beleive in eyesign"??? I don`t he said...I beleive in the "Basket"....So,as I was very new at this hobby,as an owner/flyer of racing birds,I let the basket do it`s thing....And you know what,when I look in the eyes of my best LD cocks,I see the same eyes that Joe had,on his birds....I put one of my best LD pairs in the stock loft 2 days ago...They are 6 yrs old,and the races are over for them...I had the cock out in the sun,his yellow eye was super...His pupil was so small in the sun,and as soon as I put the eye in the shade,his pupil opened up,and closed so fast when back into the sun again..The hen was the same....This pair has flown very well in the longer races,and have bred me a 2nd Place auction bird winning $600....Yes,I beleive in eyesign,but I`ll let the basket make the FINAL decision....
PS:I have also stocked a young cock,on a hunch,after a couple of YB races..He didn`t win anything...But he was a clone to his grand sire,in all ways...And after his 1st year,he bred me a 4th place Auction bird winning $300,and the bird lost the race by 1 min 36 seconds...
The eyes had nothing to do with it...It was the BODY,FEATHERING,EXPRESSION,BALANCE that made me stock him...Yes,he has nice eyes also....Alamo


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> When I had both 620 and 836 in my loft in 09 this is their top 10 and 10% breeding record.
> 620 bred: 4th, 7th, 35th, 36th Bred Josepe's 1006 that was 8th club 15th combine this year
> 836 bred: 7th, 27th, 28th
> 
> Why do birds that breed top 10 birds need a good eye?


In 2008 *836 produced *Kona 254 = 4th, 8th and 14th. FM 5457 who raced three races 1st, 1st and 6th.

*620 produced* FM 5424 who I flew in four races placing 3rd, 5th, 6th and 8th.


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## Melsloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> What is good about 620 is that she is off Warren's stock that won him the Flamingo. Chances are the Flamingo winner has the same lousy eye.


u guys would be very surprised to know what a lousy looks like and a good eye looks like,, thin rings don't mean much....many mis conceptions built in a GREAT bird fluyer or racer doenst neccaarily mean a eye filled with rings and and blh blah  also when you look at these performers you need to see what the eyes of both parents eyes look like


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## hillfamilyloft

Melsloft said:


> u guys would be very surprised to know what a lousy looks like and a good eye looks like,, thin rings don't mean much....many mis conceptions built in a GREAT bird fluyer or racer doenst neccaarily mean a eye filled with rings and and blh blah  also when you look at these performers you need to see what the eyes of both parents eyes look like


Sounds like you need a PHD for eye sign. I think I will stick with my birds that breed 1st place birds. If all 17 can be said to have great eye sign then cool. Otherwise so what. Race results are what I am after, not cool eyes.


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## ace in the hole

Alamo said:


> *I had the cock out in the sun,his yellow eye was super...His pupil was so small in the sun,and as soon as I put the eye in the shade,his pupil opened up,and closed so fast when back into the sun again. *




I check this in the same way. The speed birds will have a larger pupil even in the sun. The more distance the bird the smaller the pupil is expected to be. I check this with the vents to keel gap. They should both tell me the same thing. Then again breeding type to type.


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## Melsloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Sounds like you need a PHD for eye sign. I think I will stick with my birds that breed 1st place birds. If all 17 can be said to have great eye sign then cool. Otherwise so what. Race results are
> 
> what I am after, not cool eyes.


I think ur missing the point AGAIN  cool eyes for what,,, to do what,,,,(cool eyes might be decieving for the in experienced person as well,, since you really don't knwo what your looking for ,, its not rinsg and rings and so on its so much more than that),,,,,,,,,,,,  U might have birds with exceptional eyes and you prob don't even know it  ,,, you I have been there u ,,, I have in the past ages bought birds mate d best to best as far as performnaces,,,,,,,, AND it doenst work that way,,, that was without any eyesign knowledge,,,,,,, NOW how ever after trying to learn with my mentor the BEST guy in the planet I would say!!!! things have changed around for me and hundreds of others,,,,,,, but if u like ur system and it works thats fine I can respect that,,,,,, BUT for those who want to learn how to use the knowledge of eyesign for their own pursposes those people speak up and let us know the rest pls leave the subject of eyesign to the experts or those who want to learn


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## First To Hatch

Their are 1,001 ways to win a pigeon race, theirs probably at least 101 ways to breed good pigeons, we may all have different opinions but they all work. As for me I'm lucky, most of my breeders were sold/given to me with the previous owner telling me how to pair them lol.


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## hillfamilyloft

Melsloft said:


> I think ur missing the point AGAIN  cool eyes for what,,, to do what,,,,(cool eyes might be decieving for the in experienced person as well,, since you really don't knwo what your looking for ,, its not rinsg and rings and so on its so much more than that),,,,,,,,,,,,  U might have birds with exceptional eyes and you prob don't even know it  ,,, you I have been there u ,,, I have in the past ages bought birds mate d best to best as far as performnaces,,,,,,,, AND it doenst work that way,,, that was without any eyesign knowledge,,,,,,, NOW how ever after trying to learn with my mentor the BEST guy in the planet I would say!!!! things have changed around for me and hundreds of others,,,,,,, but if u like ur system and it works thats fine I can respect that,,,,,, BUT for those who want to learn how to use the knowledge of eyesign for their own pursposes those people speak up and let us know the rest pls leave the subject of eyesign to the experts or those who want to learn


Mel
I do respect the fact that I know nothing about eye sign to either dismiss it or claim expertise. But in my experience looking in to its value, I have found none. I have found many views on the theory, with many different uses of jargon. Yet I have never found any of the greats in the world of pigeon racing holding it in much regard. Nor have I found any method of selection for that matter that would be considered as the holy grail. But their are a few that have consistency in winning. The one I choose is get the best birds you can find and breed from them. The best in my view are the birds at the top of the race sheet, for we are breeding racing pigeons. If all have great eye sign so be it. But first they must win. Because a crummy bird in the basket has no use in a winning loft. Mel I respect you breeding methods and your winning ways, but until their is scientific data to back your claims and sound methodologies in its practice, eye sign is simply theory.


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## hillfamilyloft

I am also going to decline the invitation to leave the post to the so called experts and their followers. This is not a cult but an open forum. I think all should be able to see both sides of the issue and see all views. Make their own educated views on the subject matter. I have posted an article here that is a fun read. When I make my decisions on my selection methods I look to those that are experts, those that have the desired traits that I want. I try and read as much as I can on the subject at hand and those subjects that have what I want. My objective is to obtain winning pigeons at the level I compete. Of those I want to emulate, not one uses eye sign. All use the basket. 

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm


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## hillfamilyloft

http://www.albertaclassic.net/2005/AC_eyesign.php
this is a fun page.


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## hillfamilyloft

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/eye.html
another good read


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## Pigeon0446

First To Hatch said:


> Their are 1,001 ways to win a pigeon race, theirs probably at least 101 ways to breed good pigeons, we may all have different opinions but they all work. As for me I'm lucky, most of my breeders were sold/given to me with the previous owner telling me how to pair them lol.


And the most important thing you need when breeding pigeons is luck. If you start with really good stock you don't need as much luck since your stock is good to start with and you should breed good birds. But if your a new guy starting out or if you don't have the money to go out and get really good stock to start with you need alot of luck. I'm not a big eyesign believer but if you are good for you this is a hobby do whatever makes you happy. But what I look for when I buy a bird is race records or just the way the bird looks to me. And I've been pretty good at buying birds to breed out of I don't buy many since I feel my birds are pretty good already but the last 10 I've picked up over the past 5 years 8 of them have bred me diploma winners so I'm gonna stick to my way of doing things since thats what makes me happy.


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## hillfamilyloft

I also think many have the misconception that the more money you spend on a bird the better it is. The AU auction is coming up. A good place to get some quality birds. Mentors are the best places to get good birds. Guys that are willing to start you out right. From the sound of it Mel has a good mentor. My mentor set me up with very good birds. Birds that I could not afford otherwise.


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## Pigeon0446

There's also luck involved in finding a good mentor. There's way more pigeon flyers then there are good mentors so your lucky if your one of the guys to get a good pigeon flyer to mentor you.


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## Crazy Pete

Then I have the best luck, I have 2 mentors one with real good birds and one with a lot of knowledge on birds in general and on meds.
Dave


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## Pigeon0446

And I know what your saying about when you said by spending more money doesn't mean your gonna get better pigeons. But if you have the money you can go to a guy who flying good and buy thier proven birds off of them if you offer them enough. Maybe not all but I know of alot of guys who have sold off their good birds just to make a quick buck thinking they could replace what they sold but they weren't.


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## Pigeon0446

Crazy Pete said:


> Then I have the best luck, I have 2 mentors one with real good birds and one with a lot of knowledge on birds in general and on meds.
> Dave


It may be differnt where you fly like as you said in another post you only fly for a few dollars each week. So it's more about making your competition better to give the mentor sombody to compete with. But here with all the money involved most of the good flyers aren't gonna show you what they do so you have a chance of beating them.


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## Crazy Pete

I like our little club, though it would be fun to fly with the big league. I would like to send a few birds your way next year to see if I can compete.
Dave


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## mickey mouse

pete there are plenty of big clubs and big competition. you just have to pick one. think about the au convention race in calif. next year or sending birds to florida where many old and younger guys go to fly against the big guns. races in texas and mid-west. they are all over the country. do you get the digest mag.???? plenty of info in there.


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## Crazy Pete

I do ok in my club, but it coast a lot of $$ to send untested birds to those kind of races. I plan on sending birds to a couple one loft events next yr. I think my Fabry's will do a lot better than the birds I sent to the PT classic.
Dave


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## Pigeon0446

Crazy Pete said:


> I do ok in my club, but it coast a lot of $$ to send untested birds to those kind of races. I plan on sending birds to a couple one loft events next yr. I think my Fabry's will do a lot better than the birds I sent to the PT classic.
> Dave


The money it cost to send birds to these races is what stops me from entering birds I can't afford it. Thats what makes my clubs money races pretty good the Great South Bay Classic is 5 birds for $250 and we have a 10,000 first prizes with 500 birds entered and then we have the LBRA Auction race where the breeder can get the 5 bands from me for free and send the birds in for one of the auctions and have a shot at anywhere from 6,000 to 9,000 first prize since the 1st prize has been as high as 9,000 and as low as 6,000 over the past 6 years. With prizes going from btween 25 and 35 ways. The LBRA auction is why I can't afford to send my birds out I always have to pay about 150 a peice toi get my birds back then I pick up a few other birds and I don't have any money left for other races.


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## Crazy Pete

The Great South Bay Classic sounds like a good deal. Does that activate all 5 birds? Most one loft races are $100 plus + perch fee. 
Dave


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## re lee

Crazy Pete said:


> I do ok in my club, but it coast a lot of $$ to send untested birds to those kind of races. I plan on sending birds to a couple one loft events next yr. I think my Fabry's will do a lot better than the birds I sent to the PT classic.
> Dave


Have you thought about sending a few birds to other people that race in some largere combines/ federations. That way you would just have to ship and they would train and race them. People have done this for years. Does not have to be 1 loft races.


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## Crazy Pete

re lee said:


> Have you thought about sending a few birds to other people that race in some largere combines/ federations. That way you would just have to ship and they would train and race them. People have done this for years. Does not have to be 1 loft races.




Now that sounds like a plan I can afford.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Articles by Ad Schaerlaeckens*



hillfamilyloft said:


> I am also going to decline the invitation to leave the post to the so called experts and their followers. This is not a cult but an open forum. I think all should be able to see both sides of the issue and see all views. Make their own educated views on the subject matter. I have posted an article here that is a fun read. When I make my decisions on my selection methods I look to those that are experts, those that have the desired traits that I want. I try and read as much as I can on the subject at hand and those subjects that have what I want. My objective is to obtain winning pigeons at the level I compete. Of those I want to emulate, not one uses eye sign. All use the basket.
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm


Very good points ! 

Also another fancier who most have heard of, he has won more then a couple of races ! 

http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/

From

Articles by Ad Schaerlaeckens



WHY?

'Why', I often wonder, do foreign pigeon people not ask about results when buying birds? They want good results themselves but when buying birds they want names and strains. *And… not to forget they want pigeons with special eyes: Colourful 'rich' eyes, so-called breeding eyes. Why do they like pigeons with rich eyes? I don't know. What I do know however is that scientifically the eye means nothing. Again in America pigeonpeople are crazy about 'eye-sign'. The fact that we even do not have a Dutch word for 'eye-sign' means enough. *Good birds. That's what pigeonpeople all over the world are after. But if foreign buyers would know about the (poor!) results of some famous European names their eyes would pop out. But their eyes would even more pop out if they would know about the sensational results of fanciers whose names are completely unknown to them! Whose fault this all is? As I said before: The media, the press! One of the reasons that I said 'okay' when Mr Lin asked me to write for him in this magazine is that I consider it as a duty for every man who writes about pigeons and pigeonsport to open the eyes of people who have been brainwashed too much in the past in this materialistic world.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Very good points !
> 
> Also another fancier who most have heard of, he has won more then a couple of races !
> 
> http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/
> 
> From
> 
> Articles by Ad Schaerlaeckens
> 
> 
> 
> WHY?
> 
> 'Why', I often wonder, do foreign pigeon people not ask about results when buying birds? They want good results themselves but when buying birds they want names and strains. *And… not to forget they want pigeons with special eyes: Colourful 'rich' eyes, so-called breeding eyes. Why do they like pigeons with rich eyes? I don't know. What I do know however is that scientifically the eye means nothing. Again in America pigeonpeople are crazy about 'eye-sign'. The fact that we even do not have a Dutch word for 'eye-sign' means enough. *Good birds. That's what pigeonpeople all over the world are after. But if foreign buyers would know about the (poor!) results of some famous European names their eyes would pop out. But their eyes would even more pop out if they would know about the sensational results of fanciers whose names are completely unknown to them! Whose fault this all is? As I said before: The media, the press! One of the reasons that I said 'okay' when Mr Lin asked me to write for him in this magazine is that I consider it as a duty for every man who writes about pigeons and pigeonsport to open the eyes of people who have been brainwashed too much in the past in this materialistic world.


Oh, and some more from this great Champion...you may get a chuckle out of this one......

From

*Articles by Ad Schaerlaeckens*

Real Champions cannot believe it. 



It was in my younger years when I had to comb the girls out of my raven black hair

that I was in America. 

The reason of this visit was pigeons of course and people asked me to grade them. 

I told them I could not distinguish the good ones from the bad ones, the only thing that I could was to tell if pigeons were pretty or not. 

They were highly surprised.

A champion in Europe who could not say which birds were good and which were bad?

I had disappointed them. 

For them it was no problem, they could see it from the eyes.



EASY

And one by one they showed me the “ eye lenses” that they had brought with them and which they used to study the eyes of the birds. 

Birds were passed from one fancier to another and they all carefully studied the eyes. After that they gave their opinion. They told each other: 

If it was a good racer or not.

If it was a good breeder. 

If it was fit for long distance, for dark weather and so on. 

I could not believe what I heard and THEY could not believe that I had not brought “eye lenses” with me. 

When I said I even did not have them I saw some of those guys shake their heads.

One of them said “you simply cannot do without these eye lenses. You cannot believe what you can read in the eyes of a pigeon.”

Though I was in the minority, it was one against all, I decided not to take it any longer and asked the man how many breeders he had. 

He did not get the point because he said “35 pairs”. 

If you are so sure of yourself when grading birds by the eye why do you keep so many I asked? Just 5 pairs of super breeders would make you one of the best fanciers in the world. Some of the company grinned.


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## mickey mouse

http://www.dreampigeons.com/default.asp?ContentId=3903&LanguageId=44&CategoryId=3568&NewsId=66693


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## Kastle Loft

Well, I finally got a sunny day and had a chance to shoot and re-shoot some eye photos of my birds. 

I've paired up 80% of these birds already and did NOT use any kind of eyesign grading to make those choices.

However, I still wouldn't mind a bit to hear from the some of you who use eyesign and tell me what you think of both the birds and the photos. 

Again, this is a bit of a photography exercise for me to see just how close and sharp I can get - and to see if that degree of magnification has any value to the eyesign followers.

I've posted them on my website - too many to post here.

http://www.kastleloft.com/eyesign/

But here is one of the more interesting eyes. It's has a color unlike any of the others.


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## re lee

Bumping up because of new thread. Here are plenty of posts. on the subject


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## Alamo

I have said this before...My mentor here in the Pittsburgh/WVa area,who helped me with much wisdom,did not beleive in any "theories"....He always said"The basket will tell you which pigeons to keep"..He did NOT beleive in EYESIGN....But when I handled his best birds,they had EYES that would make a EYESIGN EXPECT pee his pants....So as MR Joe "Scubby" Imperatore ALLWAYS told me,the "Basket will tell you which to keep"....*In much Respect and Love,I miss my Mentor and my DAD,who passed away a few years **ago*....I haven`t won a race since THEY have left me behind !! Alamo


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## conditionfreak

In humans, the eyes are truly the windows to the soul. I can tell if you are kind hearted, lying, or asleep, by looking at your eyes. I may even be able to tell your intelligence level. But I can not tell if you can run fast, swim, or bake a good cake, by looking at your eyes.

In pigeons, I believe being able to distinguish the good racers or breeders, from the not so good, is hogwash.

I do like a pigeon with a good looking eyesign. But that is like saying I like a woman with good looking eyes. In fact, her good looks or good looking eyes, do not mean squat about her abilities, personality or breeding superiority.

Why don't we just pick out the people with the best looking eyes and send them to be our representatives in the Olympics?

I think you know why.

Next thing you know, someone will be touting how left legged pigeons make better breeders. 

(Use a flashlight and look at your birds at night as they sleep on their perch. You will see which are right or left legged)


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## Lavender Hill Lofts

I know that a pigeon to win races needs at least two good eyes to see whereas a breeder only needs one........


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## ssyyb2

I remember I raised a bird that was red white and blue and had one green eye and one yellow eye he flew amazing


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