# Emergency rehydration



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all,


Just got a roughly 20 day old 'peeper' in...a very nice woman who found him had him for four days with no food or water. She had tried very sweetly to get him to eat and drink, and even made special things for him to eat, but did not know how to do this with Pigeons...so...


He was in siesures and eyes closed and twisting around by the time I got him not able to stand.


Anyway I let him drink ( from the 'Nipple' ) about two teaspoons of tepid electrolyte water at about 7:45, and then again just now ( 8:05), and he is rallying somewhat and plaintively peeping here in my shirt front after frantically peeping for a little while. Nestled like this with my hand mostly on him also making a nice warmth in there, the contortions or siesures are abating.

I figure to let him drink a couple more sessions of two teaspoons each time of the electrolytes over the next hour...and...

Last round he aspirated a little in his enthusiasm and this scared the heck out of me hearing him gurgling and rasping, but after about five minutes it passed and he got back to pure 'peeping' again.

I sure hope that did not make any problems for him.


Any thoughts on how soon I may feed him some thin Soups?


Usually they are not this far gone, so I am not sure whether a two hour window is rushing things to go from the long end of nothing, to some fluids, to thin 'Soup'...


Let me know your thoughts or recommends?


Thanks everyone!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's usually better in cases like that to get them fully hydrated before starting feeding. Hydration is a longer process than you'd think and it can take 24 hours to get good. I think it's because getting the fluid into the blood is one thing, but into the tissues is actually quite another. Anyhow, to keep from aspirating, you might just go ahead and tube it to the bottom of the crop in fairly small doses every little bit. If you start to see his kidneys pumping out a lot of water then you can probably figure to slow it up some. There's probably a science to that but I always just bumbled along in cases like that.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Thanks...


This is one of the saddest things I have seen...he was just so wilted and done for, and has rallied so nicely and is just "peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep'-ing constantly but for some little moments of falling asleep...

I know he'd really like some chow...and anyway, yea...for the rehydration to really permiate can take a day certainly...



Oye...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...well, we have done some every twenty minutes or so 3/4 Nipples of re-hydration/electrolytes, ( half-usual-strength ACV-Water, Braggs Liquid Aminos, pinch of Sugar ) and he has calmed down a great deal finally, napping in my shirt front, where I decided to have him from the get-go, and where I can easily make sure his Head is 'up' and so on, as well as that he is nice and "warm" now. His Feet are plenty warm even, where initially he was definitely not-warm.


The contortions and frantic 'peeping' and flailing have finally diminshed a great deal too, to where at this moment, he is sleeping like a regular 'peeper' in a calm laying down way.


I dunno, I think I will feed him some thin 'Soup' here in a little while, midnight maybe, really, a nutritious tepid-Beverage is more like it. Just so he can feel he has 'something' to go on besides electrolytes...some easy calories with some light nutrition to coast on till morning, mixed into the rehydration solution.


Wish him well...!


Poor little Bug, he sure had gone though a tough bunch of days in a row there. I am so glad the lady who had him called me and we got together on this...although sadly, she called around 2:30 this afternoon, but I was just about to leave for the Vets and could not meet her yet...so, finally we did get together around 7:30 after each of us waiting at the wrong 7-11 for a half hour...and, in another few hours, maybe less, I think he'd have been in a coma or worse.

Who knows how long it had been since Water or Chow when the Lady found him four days ago.

Anyway...close...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Phil,

I'm sorry to hear this little one is in such bad shape. Sounds like he is quite comfy and cozy and content and needs alot of sleep now. I'm sure he appreciates your 24/7 care.

Please update as soon as you can.

Thank you for helping the little sweetie.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Patches was in a heckuva' state when I got him. Broken leg, tail feathers blown off, laying by the side of the road in the heat of summer... bad. It took a day to get him "woke up" and then he spent weeks in a towel recuperating from the damage. He walks a little funny but other than that he's a proud bird now.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, pardon me for gushing, but if anyone can help this little one, you can, Phil!

Sure wish you both all the best!

Warm healing thoughts and hugs...REALLY looking forward to hearing positive updates on this little one!

Love,

Shi
& Mr. Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 


Well..! - up-and-at-'em now, and morning Coffee while the formula warms.


Turns out if I took him out of my shirt front, or was not holding him in Hand-Nest, he would get frantic and start flailing and thrashing and frantically 'peeping', so I just kept him there till bed time. He could not stand, to he'd just thrash and flail...and most of the time his Eyes were closed or mostly closed.


This is one of the few youngsters who I am certain was 'crying'.

I have heard this only a few times, but it is profound. Most of those hours initially, he was inconsolable, then lapseing into sleep or unconsciousness, he would be quiet for little periods...or sleeping.


Kept up the electrolytes every 20 minutes or so, and some watery poops with I assume old solids and urates started getting made at some point later last night.


Set up a little 'peeper warm house' in a box on it's side next to my pillow and had him spend the night in my hand or hands, and this worked fine. If I took my hand out, he'd get frantic and thrashing again, so...


Finally, a little while ago, me half-dozeing, I realized he was not in my hand but close to it in the 'warm house' so I sveltly pulled my hand out and quietly got up, made some Coffee...he was sleeping quietly in a normal attitude so I let him sleep and am warming up some formula 'Soup' now for a breakfast for him.


I did feed him about two Teaspoons full of thin formula-Soup last night around 2:30 A.M., he had poked his head out between my shirt Buttons, and even though he was sort of sleeping-half-delerious, he went right for the Nipple and felt a lot stronger than he had earlier, so I fed him that way, with just his head sticking out of the little opening there in my Shirt.


Have not checked inside the 'warm house' for overnight poops, but there was a dried 'splat' of one on my wrist, so...I am sure he made some anyway.


So, we shall see shortly how all that flailing and thrashing stuff is today...hope it is passed now...

If need be, he can be a Shirt-Peeper again today, till he feels safe and assured enough to hang out otherwise.


Sometimes they are like this, where their privations or other vicissitudes have just freaked them out so bad, they can not bear the absence of immediate and continous Body-contact.


I noticed he was breathing in exact synch with my Hearbeat when in my hands in the 'warm house', and I was tracking that for a long time last night as I was waiting to fall asleep.

Sometimes I will imitate the subtle motion of a parent pressing them and breathing, where I just slightly squeeze my hand as if 'that' were the slight movement of the parent breathing, and I have found this to comfort them also...but I was not doing that then, just holding him lightly so he would feel assured he was not alone anymore.

If I took my hand or hands out for only a moment to adjust something, he'd start flipping out...so, worked out good doing it that way, and the 'warm-house' having a towell over the front and tucked in variously, makes sure he can not trundle out and get into troubles, so I can sleep without worrying about that.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sure glad things are looking up for this little one, Phil. This little bird must have really had a horrible time of it our there in the big, wide, world. 

Terry


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

Phil, As you know I am knew and don't even have close to the knowledge you all have but one thing I am familiar with is twisting bodies and flailing around. I have taken 2 peepers to the vet for this exact thing and both times he gave them a shot of baytril and a shot of dexamethazone. He told me the problem was nuerological. Two days after the shots and both my babies were so much better. The two shots he gave cost $12. I don't know if this is the same thing you're dealing with but it reminded me of my babies. Marie


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't have any advice to add, but I'm glad you are caring for this poor baby, Phil, and wish you the best in getting him back to good health. He sounds so sad and desperate.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Rocky17 said:


> Phil, As you know I am knew and don't even have close to the knowledge you all have but one thing I am familiar with is twisting bodies and flailing around. I have taken 2 peepers to the vet for this exact thing and both times he gave them a shot of baytril and a shot of dexamethazone. He told me the problem was nuerological. Two days after the shots and both my babies were so much better. The two shots he gave cost $12. I don't know if this is the same thing you're dealing with but it reminded me of my babies. Marie



Hi Marie,


Hmmmmm...I dunno.


The starvation/rehydration issues would still remain critical and needing to be dealt with, even if such shots were administered.


I have seen similar co-ordination/flailing/unable to stand issues before to various extents, where seperated from their parents, youngsters of whatever age then suffer privation, whether or not attended with illness or injury preceeding or subsequent.

I would like to learn the method of injecting Ringer's Lactate into the Peritonial cavity directly for instances of severe dehydration...but I neither had the right materials or know how for that.


Thanks forthe mention...the dexamethazone I think would be worth looking into for clobal contusion, concussion or some instances of sever Canker.


I do not understand quite how it would benifit situations of dehydration/starvation though, so, next time you are at your Vets, see if you can ask them for some more info.


Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, Tressa, Shi, Terry, Birdmom4ever,




Thank you...


Named him 'Joey' out of his spending all last evening in my Shirt front, like a Baby Kangaroo.



Did a few rounds of chow, thin-ish 'Soup' with small Seeds...getting ready to do another here in a few minutes.


He did well, eating from the Nipple now like it was old hat.

Less spazzy than last night, much less frantic...was willing to even stay put a few moments in a towell donut while I needed both hands to refill the Nipple.


I felt exhausted today so I ended up taking a nap this afternoon, and like last night, I just kept a hand in the 'warm house' on top of him or him in my hand, which ever he chose at any given time.


Worrying about 'peepers' can wear me out sometimes, or did this time anyway...especially as once last night and once this morning, he aspirated a little bit and was raspy/wheeezing...this possibly from his tendancy ( passed now, thankfully but severe initially and still somewhat so this morning, ) of keeping his Beak pressed against his Neck which was making it hard for him to drink and swallow easily. So, each of those brief things-gone-wrong moments kind of took a heavy toll on me and I felt so bad thinking I might have harmed him. Probably added a few more grey hairs to my head too.

Time will tell...things cleared in a few minutes each time, but I worried.


Maybe should have just been tube feeding him, but I wanted him to get to drink/eat more or less normally, but the 'tube' would really would have been safer and more sensible I think.

Anyway last couple rounds he was no more doing the Beak-against-throat thing, so that is good.


He looks like he was well nourished prior to his mis-adventures.


Almost 24 hours now since getting him...and I have a feeling I will be getting to bed early tonight.



Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Phil,

I was really worried for this little one, and am glad he is progressing nicely.

Thank you for your supportive care for him, sounds like it is paying off.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Things are sounding better, Phil, but I know he still has a ways to go!

Keep up the GREAT work and please get some rest! You can't help him if you are not available or sick!

Still and always...warm healing thoughts, hugs and scritches!  

Love,

Shi
& Mr. Squeaks


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Wow Phil...not that this is anything new, but I just want to say that the way you take care of your pijies is really amazing. Your dedication, caring, the rapport you develop...all your pigeons are very lucky to find you, this one especially. Poor baby! But really...wow. Get some sleep!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...




I am so sorry...it did not work out.


He passed away during the early morning sometime, in his warm-house, next to my sleeping hands as I 
slept. 

I had earlier shut the heating pad off since he was seeming to have become a pretty good 
little self-warmer, and he'd been preening off and on to beat the Band all day...but then come 
night time, he was not making his own warmth very well, so I both set the heating pad 
on low in the warm house, and later, had him in my hands as I lay there waiting to fall 
asleep, and for most ofthe night as I did sleep off and on...and he seemed comfortable and snug and settled down nicely with 
what seemed like normal regular breathing after some earlier too fast and semi-open Beak breathing.


I am pretty sure his passing away was my fault, with the ( admittedly slight 
and momentary) aspiration mis-hap of yesterday morning, which I 
hoped-against-hope had cleared and amounted to nothing more than a moment's 
drama...with a few minutes of raspyness that had long since passed.


Toward evening he was seeming to have developed some respiratory distress 
and rapid open Beak breathing, then that settled down alright and he seemed okay 
enough on that score, seemed very much like a nortmal Squeaker, but was no longer peeping if we interacted. I 
inspected his Trachial opening and it was not remarkable or dialated or over-active looking or 
inflamed, but did seem rimmed with lighter color inside.

I had elected to tube feed after yesterday morning's worrys, so as to make 
sure he would have no more swallowing-breathing co-ordination issues, but 
the mishap of course had already happenned and I imagine led to some order 
of pnuemonia.


So, damn.


I had elected the Nipple ( and I had been careful letting him drink, or eat for one 
second, then withdrawing the Nipple for three or four or five seconds, for 
making sure he was able to swallow what he had and breathe and so on without 
conflict, ) feeling he would want to feel his Beak IN something warm and 
soft and food-giving, and I should have only tube fed from the onset 
instead.


I have never had any aspiration problems previously, even with the very dim 
and wilted and spazzy-from-privation ones.

But I will remember this lesson, or this caution anyway, and any time I have 
the slightest concern about their co-ordination, I will tube feed instead, 
untill I am sure they are past it.


Sorry to have to tell this tale.


I sure liked him, and I was so glad he finally was consolable, preening, and over all so much improved and calmer and returning to normal... and I feel really sorry I did not have better judgement to have just tube-fed only for all of it from the beginning.


Poops comeing through were becomeing chaulky yellow, and also odd in other 
ways, but the odd could simply be that for so long he had eaten or drank nothing...so I did give him some Metronidazole suited to his weight, and was 
wondering if he maybe had some other issues starting to manifest also.

Maybe this is why Rocky's Vet adminstered Baytril for those wobbley privation ones...to ward off impending infections of some kind he had seen previously to develop fast otherwise.

So, I do not know for sure, other than if there had been no aspiration 
mis-hap, he might well have been fine enough to be only a little sick with sme transient Canker and 
something or other else, which would have been responsive to 
treatment for him to have lived and grown up and been released.

Aside from Canker, or Candida, I have no particular memory of seeing any illness manifesting with privation Babys/Peepers/Squeakers.


If anyone else has, please let me know your recollections, so I might think on the matter for future occasions.


Thanks everyone...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

So sorry Phil...you did your best. The baby did sound like he was in really really bad shape to begin with...he was lucky to have a couple days of cuddle time with you, such love and care. I'm sorry again for your loss


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil,

I am so very sorry this little one didn't make it. Sometimes they are just not meant to be and nothing we do or don't do is going to change the outcome. I know you are feeling very down about this one but know that you did your best and that the little one was safe and cared for at the end.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, please don't blame yourself, this was a very sick bird that you took in and
coddled w/love, patience and medical help. This baby experienced so much symptomatic relief from your regimine that it became possible for you and the rest of us to believe that recovery was even possible. I'm so sorry for your
loss, and equally sorry for your sense of having made a fatal mistake for this baby. You did your very best and sometimes they just don't all make it. I hope
you are taking good care of yourself, because there are sure to be more crossing your path in need.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry Phil. You made this little guy comfortable in his last hours, I am sure he appreciated it. He knew he was loved and cared for.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm SO terribly sad to hear the baby didn't make it.  

Please don't beat yourself up over this as the baby was in very poor shape when you got him and possibly had a weak respiratory system to begin with.

You gave this youngster much more support, love, and comfort in his last days then he had seen his whole life.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh, Phil, I'm so sorry. Each little one is special. Please don't feel like you caused his demise, if anything you eased his days. You gave the little bird what it needed --a respite from pain, confusion, and further hurt, along with great care and love. Bless you.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Big hug to you Phil. Don't beat yourself up with this because we sure can't save them all and he was a mighty sick little one.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Phil, I am so sorry for your loss and for sadness I am sure it has brought to your heart, God Bless you Phil.

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Phil. It is always so hard to lose a squeaker. THere are risks involved in all feeding methods, wood pigeons have a nasty habit of clenching their crops , regurgitating and aspirating when they are tube fed. But 4 days without water is a long time for a squeaker and it is not possible to tell how much permamnent damage his organs might have suffered.

You raised one or two questions on rehydration earlier on which I would like to address:

The advantage of rehydrating IP is that it reaches the major organs withing 20 minutes. I have snatched back a dove from the brink of death using fluids IP. I can do a video of it if you like just in case you need to use that method in future. It is risky but I have never had a casualty. The only equipment that you need is a bag of lactated ringers which must be kept sterile, some needles and syringes. 

My wildlife book also has a chapter on rehydration which I can scan and send you if you need it.


Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,



Thank you, yes, I would very much welcome a little instructional Video and any text material about this.


All I know from what I had been told about the little one I was working with, was that he had been in a box for four days with no food or water, and I have no idea how long he had been without prior to that, so, it may have been longer all tolled.


I know they can hang on, and maybe even slow themselves down to conserve...and at least he was not stuck somewhere out in the Sun and so on. There were no poops or any but one small hint of urates in the Box he had been in all that time, so I think he may have been in complete privations some time prior to her having got him.



So... it would be good for me to review and study the IP method, and to obtain some of the Ringer's Lactate Solution and to mentally reherse the proceedure, in case I confront a situation where it seems recommended.


Thanks so much..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Phil, I'm so very sorry it ended this way.  Although it's possible he aspirated as you said and that caused his demise, it also seems possible he had internal canker. It's so common and I've seen photos of necropsies where it was all over the youngster's internal organs. So it may not have even been anything you did. Sometimes they are just too far gone for you to save them. At least you provided him some peace and comfort. 

-Cathy


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

I'm so sorry you lost Joey. But please, don't blame yourself so severely. There is every likelihood that he was already infected with some respiratory bug when you rescued him that was not apparent. Many organizisms are stealth, showing little in the way of symptoms until they overwhelm the body. You gave him comfort and warmth and made the best choices you could based on your observation and experience. Imo, you did a wonderful job with the little guy. You eased his suffering immensely and that counts for a lot!

Margarret


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Dear Phil,

I doubt anyone could have given more to Joey than you. Unfortunately, sometimes their little bodies are just overwhelmed. I know that you take the blame REALLY to heart and I wish we could help ease that burden! I'm afraid that only time will do that. I am so sorry for your loss.

You were with him in the end and that is what counts!

Do get some rest and take care of yourself! Unfortunately, I know there will be others coming along needing Dr. Doolittle's help!

With LOVE, HUGS and COMFORTING THOUGHTS,

Shi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I know that you take the blame REALLY to heart and I wish we could help ease that burden! I'm afraid that only time will do that. I am so sorry for your loss.


I think that it is because we have a very high survival rate for our rescues that we take any loss so much to heart and wonder if it was caused by something we did, something we didn't do or something we failed to notice. The truth is that there will always be those that come into our care a little too late or who are too badly damaged when they get to us. But they couldn't be surrounded by more love than they receive from this forum or with better care.

Cynthia


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Phil,

You did a good job as you always do.....you go above and beyond every time.

I'm sorry there was not a better outcome.

Linda


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re loss of dehydrated baby Joey*

Phil,

I am so sorry to read just now about the loss of little *Joey.* 

DON'T BLAME YOURSELF unless you intentionally cause harm. 

Don't blame yourself if you feel you didn't do something you might have done, if you were not certain. Don't blame yourself for lack of action when you are indecisive. Some people are decisive, act quickly, and have success. Sometimes they are not successful, but they don't look back, and are very active. Some people (like I think I am quite often) waffle around, think and regurgitate thoughts and think some more, and maybe, just maybe, get around to doing something about it. 

We need all types in this world. Those who "know it all," have no doubts, and get things done. Those who are mostly bogged down with doubts, and occasionally find out everyone has been doing things wrong, and effect changes which shake the world.

In our city, instructions in websites and newspaper articles say if you see a sick or injured pigeon, leave it alone and by all means don't mess with it. This is the common advice and common sense passed around, and it is probably correct procedure for most. Many baby birds apparently fallen from the nest are actually being watched and monitored and fed and so on by their parents, and interference by well-intentioned humans effects the death of the young bird. (Some birds, such as blackbirds, get the babies away from the nest before they can fly and survive on their own, because the nest site becomes too dangerous. Better have the several hopping, non-flying chicks scattered, so at least one or two have a better chance of survival. 

No matter how "expert" one becomes, one never knows everything. If it were so intended, that one be omniscient, then we would be so. And if doctors of medicine were truly successful, there would be no more doctors. Any need for a medical doctor would have been foreseen and eliminated (with the "ultimate safety belt." Perhaps a built-in diagnostic and nano-surgical system). 

Joey aspirated a bit on May 24 around 5 A.M. CET Central European Time (minus 8 hours for Mountain Time, 9 P.M. May 23), and survived for two days after that.

Humans often have something go down "the wrong way," cough and wheeze a bit, and get on with their lives, with usually no ill effect. It might add a bit of stress if they are sick, and be "the straw that broke the camel's back," but I think this is fairly rare. I admit it is a possibility, but not a probability.

If the aspiration caused sufficient damage to Joey, it is only because there was some very significant problems not yet resolved. 

Baby birds grow and develop so quickly, that not doing so for several days, dehydrating for several days, is not merely a standing still, a pause, a perhaps period of rest such as fasting might be for an adult, but is really going fast in the opposite direction, towards death (it would seem so, to me. I might be wrong). 

When humans aspirate stomach contents, such as drunks who pass out and aspirate while unconscious, they develop aspiration pneumonia, and damage occurs because of the acidity.

From my 1987 _*Merck Manual*_, page 674: *(for humans)*



> *Aspiration Pneumonia*
> 
> _Pathologic consequences of abnormal entry of fluids, particulate matter, or secretions into the lower airways._ Healthy persons commonly aspirate, but the inoculum is usually readily cleared without sequelae by normal defense mechanisms. Because the nature of the inoculum dictates the pathophysiology, symptoms, and treatment, at least 3 distinct syndromes are included in this category.


[(1)*Chemical pneumonitis*, (2) *Bacterial infection *of the lower airways, and (3) *Mechanical obstruction*]. 
[I shall give an abbreviated summary. My comments and insertions are in brackets]. 
[Pneumonitis: inflammation of the walls of the alveoli in the lungs, usually caused by a virus].



> *Chemical pneumonitis* occurs when the aspirated material is directly toxic to the lungs. The best studied and most frequent prototype is acid pneumonitis following aspiration of gastric acid (Mendelson's Syndrome). The requirement (according to animal studies) is a relatively large inoculum of fluid with a pH <3 that results in acute lung injury with a rapid onset and evolution of pulmonary symptoms within hours. The patient presents with acute dyspnea [difficult or labored breathing], tachypnea [abnormally rapid breathing], and tachycardia [abnormally rapid heart rate]. Common associated findings are cyanosis [bluish discoloration of skin due to lack of oxygen], bronchospasm, fever, sputum that is often pink and frothy. Chest x-rays invariably show infiltrates usually involving one or both lower lobes. Arterial blood gas analysis shows hypoxemia. The most important therapeutic modality is respiratory support, usually with positive pressure breathing. … Tracheal suction should e performed if the patient is seen early in the course; however _the injury is precipitous, analogous to a “flash burn,” and the acid is so rapidly neutralized by pulmonary secretions that there is minimal opportunity to reverse the chemical injury. The major purpose of tracheal suction is to clear the airways of particulate matter. …
> 
> Recent studies of this form of pneumonitis show 1 of 3 patterns: (1) rapid recovery in a fashion analogous to that described by Mendelson; (2) progression to the acute respiratory distress syndrome; or (3) bacterial superinfection. Reported mortality rates have been 30 to 50%.
> _


_
[My opinion: you gave Joey electrolytes, which would not cause acid burn. Chemical pneumonitis should be ruled out]. 




*Bacterial infection *of the lower airways is the most common form of aspiration pneumonia, primarily involving anaerobic bacteria that colonize the gingival crevice of the oropharynx [also in pigeons?]. Patients usually have a more insidious onset and progression of symptoms than those with gastric acid pneumonia.

Click to expand...

I don’t know how to apply this to pigeon Joey. He didn’t inhale anaerobic bacteria from your electrolytes. 

*Mechanical obstruction* didn’t cause his death. He lived for two more days. 

Best regards, and condolences. 

(Answer to your May 9th post coming). 

Larry_


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 


Thank you...


He'd aspirated a tiny bit of electrolytes initially, and this seemed to clear soon after.


Next morning, he aspirated a tiny bit of thin formula, and this then if in his Lungs could moulder and make problems.


His muscles or nerves saw him keeping his Beak agaist his Neck, with a lot otf tenseion to keep it there, and a lot of resistance against my getting his Head and Beak to be at a more normal angle.


While he could drink ( electolytes, or later, formula ) with his Head and Beak in this position, it compromised or added to existing compromise with his swallowing/breathing co-ordinations.


I did think about tube-feeding him from the onset, but struggleing against this muscle tension to be able to do so, was part of my rationalle for useing the Nipple instead, to just let him drink naturally.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might have been looking at some kind of neurological effect associated with some kind of bacterial infection. That's usually late-stage.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...hmmmmm...could be, but it cleared up on day 2, and his head and Beak angle were about normal...and he was sitting normally in a towell do-nut and preening and so on, so if it had been part of a continuity of bacterial infection, I would have expected it to worsen instead of having diminshed as it did.


I have seen lesser versions of this, this and the 'Leg' issues ( where their Legs are straight and stiff and of course they can not stand then or walk, but fall over unless propped up), which cleared up in a day or two or three or four, or cleared up progressively anyway, once rehydration and nutrition were begun and kept on with...in those youngsters who I took to have suffered some days of no food and no water previous.


Recent Cat-Caught post fledgling sub-adult had these 'Leg' issues, and the mostly cleared up over several days, and are now very nearly all cleared up.
But all he could do was have his Legs straight and stiff and of course had to be propped up for quite a few days all tolled.


Little Joey got his Legs back good enough to bend them and lay down nicely on day 2...

I imagine Mr. Cat Caught also went close to a week ( or more ) with very little to go on, but likely did find a few sips of Water here and there, and a few things to peck...and while 'seriously' starved and dehydrated, was not appearently as critically so as Joey was.


Phil
Las Vegas


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