# Club members don't like bird sellers



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

In my club some of the people don't like guys that try to sell birds. I am not talking about a couple birds but larger quanties. Is this normal? I don't really understand it. Does anyone else see this? The guys that have nice birds and don't want them just give them away and that is great especially for a new guy like me. Why if someone bought high end birds to breed and sell would it bother anyone else?


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

they really do screw alot of people over.. if they are good enough to buy pigeons form then they are good pigeon racers... if the bird you are buying for a small amount are really the best birds from him or her! THEN WHY ARE THEY SELLING THEM! that is just my two bits...


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Some people dont like other people putting effort and becoming a treat to them. You will really understand this if you are a professional dog breeder or handler. Everybody is a threat to them. I used to be like that in the dog showfield now i actually help people get down good new dogs.

Helps healthy competition and helps improve the standard of breeds regardless of dogs or birds. Just ask them how they got the good birds - most probably they bought it from a seller or bought there parents from a seller. Its simple.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think you can look at both ends of the spectrum. Free birds or thousand dollar birds. Either could be a winner or a good breeder. They may be from the same bloodline, they may both be lousy racers. For some reason in this county we have people that would spend say 3k on a Ganus bird and would not give $300 for say Warren's Flamingo winner. We also see guys giving away thier birds or starting over because their birds do not have fancy pedigrees. We will never understand. Warren has probably given away more winners than he has raced. I say more power to the guy who can make a living selling birds. I do not think all buyers are educated enough, but this also helps the seller capitalize on the suckers. I am all for the guys that spend thousands of dollars on breeders and then give offspring to help the new guy or girl. I think all of us would rather fly against good competition than bad. Some of us just simply feel good when we give.

Randy


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I have spent many years as a dog trainer/breeder of German bred German Shorthaired Pointers. I have had my own segment on an out door TV show. I have my own video training searies on training a true hunting companion. But, Not Once was I afraid to tell someone every thing I know or to sell them the best dog that I had ( If the price was right ). That is were my business came from (word of mouth)! These people will not stay in business long if they don't produce what they say they can. Word will get arround, and the only ones that will be buying from them are the suckers that have not yet opened there eyes to what happens in this sport as well as every other aspect of life today. 
You have to look out for your own interests first. But your second responsibillity is to the rest of the bird world. If someone is selling something that is not what they say it is, than you have a responsibillity to let the rest of us know.
But then again, if someone has worked long and hard to produce the family they have, and are willing to share it with you and I to generate a profit for there commitment, money and hard work. Then more power to them, and I would like to complement them on there contribution to the sport. Some times you have to open a book more than once in order to read between the lines!! Thank you for giving me this chance to open my mind, Mark


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## croweater (Dec 3, 2007)

You cannot expect pigeon fanciers to spend many thousands of doillars buying hopefully some of the best birds in Europe and then breeding from them to give away the progeny. If you dont want to buy from them thats your decision, but I disagree with being critical of them for selling and hoping to make a few dollars, after all, they went to all the effort and risks of getting them into the country.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

depends how you look at it. Some feel that if the birds are not that good they should not pass them on to others. It is buyer be aware. A good breeder feels you should let useable birds go to others. Dealers or peddlers often have lesser birds. NOW club members trying to help new comers that is different. But peddlers sell more junk birds then good birds. And use the breeders name to help get the better price.. So often you pay more get less. Even known top lofts fall into selling most every bird. And get known as a peddler down the road. Remember it is not easy to raise very many useable birds each year. The rest do not make the cut as helping others.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> In my club some of the people don't like guys that try to sell birds. I am not talking about a couple birds but larger quanties. Is this normal? I don't really understand it. Does anyone else see this? The guys that have nice birds and don't want them just give them away and that is great especially for a new guy like me. Why if someone bought high end birds to breed and sell would it bother anyone else?


 Hello Ohiogsp,

That is a very good question, and the only logical answer that I can arrive at is jealousy. Our sport seems to be the only game where some of the players seem to feel that it is somehow bad for the game if a buyer and a seller agree to exchange a racer in exchange for money. Can you imagine owners of race horses being subjected to this same sort of mentality ? 

Do these same club members feel that professional football players or baseball players should offer their services for free and not get paid ? Should the owners of a $30,000,000 race horse give away the stud services of their prize stallion in order to help the new guy getting into horse racing ? Likewise, when someone such as a Ludo Claessen has an extra 8 or 10 birds should he not offer them to the public by way of auction ? 

Again, I keep coming back to what the motivating factor is for people thinking it is a bad idea for a fancier to agree to give up ownership of a pigeon in exchange for money. Those fanciers who claim it is somehow bad, is it because no one has not knocked on their door and offered them cash ? In at least one auction I saw Ludo Claessen collect something like 70,000 Euro for about ten of his birds. At today's exchange rate that is about $103,000, would one of your club member's turn down my cash if I asked him for 10 pigeons which were not his best, and I offered him my box full of $100's ? 

Now if I "Invested" $103,000 in ten of Ludo's birds, am I now expected to give away YB's to all that ask ? Hardly a week goes by that I don't get an email or a phone call from someone asking just that. At the same time I also have people with money in hand asking me to share some of what I have, in exchange for their money. Does accepting the money, which allows me to support people like Ludo...., make me now a bad guy ?  

Truth of the matter is, I could care less what club members think of my private business dealings. I'm not there to be a people pleaser, I am there to fly pigeons. Perhaps if the club members you speak of spent a little more time minding their pigeons instead of other fanciers, they would be producing pigeons that would be in demand.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Ace you are a brave man saying you are a dog trainer on here. As soon as you say you are a dog trainer on here people say you must be shooting pigeons for your dogs. This is not always true. Why would every trainer shoot a pigeon that they can put out in the field and use forever? Anyway, do your dogs look like this one? PM me, I tried to PM you but there is no info on your profile.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Maybe it is more that they don't like a person and think that the birds just arent worth it. I can understand that especially if it is someone that is constantly causing problems. I was just wondering if this was more of a general think accross the sport?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Selling every extra bird you raise each year is not a good deal for anybody. Each year there will be birds raised that do not make the cut. Be it show or race birds. These birds are extra birds. The better birds most often are gone through to decide which to hold back. The better birds that you choose not to use. are good prospects for sell birds. The lesser ones end up as give away birds. Like it or not culling is a must. Each and every year. Giving the real cull birds away is a way of reducing the numbers. BUT these birds given to the wrong person such as a peddler Are then sold to others saying this is a so and so bred bird. Gives bad names down the road.. Sure good useable birds are most often sold. Its part of ghetting birds. And decent breeders sell decent birds. Price of a good bird is more. but the old saying you get what you pay for Is often true. Free birds have and still does help many a new comer each year. But some people do not do much giving away/ They go through there birds hard and what they have in the loft are good birds. These birds can be trusted birds,from the right loft. These lofts sell less But better birds. Find some one who say raise 2 to 300 birds a year, Sells most They my friend are a dealer not a breeder.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Dog Training Posts and Posts Discussing Killing Birds or Animals*

Just be careful members .. please do not post about killing birds or animals for training dogs or for any other reason aside from humane euthanasia when there is no other choice. Such posts will be edited or deleted. Even posts about using pigeons for training dogs are likely to get you in hot water here. Such posts are not a violation of the board rules, but do be aware that you may get lambasted by the members. If you make such a post and it is not well received .. I told you so.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TAWhatley said:


> Just be careful members .. please do not post about killing birds or animals for training dogs or for any other reason aside from humane euthanasia when there is no other choice. Such posts will be edited or deleted. Even posts about using pigeons for training dogs are likely to get you in hot water here. Such posts are not a violation of the board rules, but do be aware that you may get lambasted by the members. If you make such a post and it is not well received .. I told you so.
> 
> Terry


Thank you Terry.....and besides that...it is really pretty far off topic and we are bird lovers here and don't want to go down this path.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

was waiting to see stars on this one myself lol


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

ohiogsp said:


> In my club some of the people don't like guys that try to sell birds. I am not talking about a couple birds but larger quanties. Is this normal? I don't really understand it. Does anyone else see this? The guys that have nice birds and don't want them just give them away and that is great especially for a new guy like me. Why if someone bought high end birds to breed and sell would it bother anyone else?



Hi ohiogsp,

In short you asked a loaded question my friend! The short answer is no, not everyone dislikes the seller's that are out there. 

Now with that said the guy who is selling stock off of birds that say, went out of existance a hundred years ago or more, has never won a race with them and passes them off as high quality stock...........Now these guys are a different story altogether. They should be exposed for the liers they are.

On the other hand the local guy or the guy selling on the internet (Auctions) who is honest and hard working and gives you youngsters off of his best stock to help a new flier out, or even the guy who sells you those youngsters. These people should be commended, the honest guy is going to tell you the truth about the stock you are obtaining. He or she will probibly even help you out with training tips and the like, if you take the time to ask and listen.

Just my point of view on the subject;

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Speaking of bird sellers, Ludo Claessen had an auction close today on PIPA, where one of his birds sold for 19,200 EURO or based in US dollars...about $28,400 plus import fees. The bird's name is "KIRSTY"......I wonder what his fellow club members would think of this ? Apparently the bird is going to China where many top birds have gone in recent years.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Now Warren,

I was'nt refering to present company or guys like Ludo Claessen.  

I was refering to the snake oil salesmen out there. you know the type who continue to claim they have pure families of bloodlines that at best died out a hundred years ago. The ones who never flew themselves and in there adds can only claim the bird is a great grandchild of this or that champion bought from someone else. The pedigree will then usually state that the last three generations were all bred down out of the champion bird for stock only. 

You know yourself that not every champion flier will make a champion breeder or visa versa. But in there adds they would try to dazzle you with a list of past performances and have you so dazzled that you will believe the bird your about to buy can or will do the same. 

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*You must breed them yourself !*



lawman said:


> Now Warren,
> 
> I was'nt refering to present company or guys like Ludo Claessen.
> 
> ...



Hello Lawman,

I did not think that you were referring to me or to the likes of Ludo....I actually agree with everything you state. 

I don't know what the actual percentage might me, but I suspect that perhaps 90-95% or higher of all pigeons sold in the USA, are by and large pretty much your typical pigeon. Some may have pedigrees which are prettier then others...but by and large what they are offering is hope in the form of a genetic lottery ticket. 

And I'm not so sure that the blame all falls on the pigeon seller, regardless of their stripe....a good part falls onto those fanciers who are looking for a winning breeder in all the wrong places. I myself deal with these types of fanciers all the time....instead of calling or writing and asking for a good pigeon or two, they insist on buying a pretty pedigree, and will base their buying based on a nice pedigree. 

The problem stems in part from people not really knowing what a good bird is when they have one in their hand, and I have seen people turn down an excellent specimen in favor of a bird with a number of faults but because of a pedigree. The real Masters such as a Ludo Claessen, know a good bird when they see one, and will use it. Such as the case where Ludo used a stray bird, which had no pedigree at all, but had all the right stuff right in the hand. After he bred from it, he sold it to Mike Ganus and now you can purchase one of his unproven YB's right out of the nest for many thousands of dollars...see: http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/goldenwitten2.htm so, one method is to purchase a dozen or so birds like this, and the odds are there will be 5 to 10% in a good year which could turn out pretty special. Ask any honest Grand Master how many really special super birds he may raise in any given year....and they may tell you that if you get 5 good ones out of 100 YB's...then it was a very good year. 

That's the truth and the dirty little secret...but it does not stop people from trying to buy their own little piece of hope, just like the people who can least afford it, will plunk down their hard earned money for some lottery tickets. From my perspective it is very, very difficult to purchase a *"Good" *pigeon....you must breed one yourself !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Lawman,
> 
> I did not think that you were referring to me or to the likes of Ludo....I actually agree with everything you state.
> 
> ...


Your close on the 5 out of 100. But often if you look at top birds You see even less. Far as 95 % well yes in performance birds such as racing pigeon. SHOW birds if you know your bird you can pick much better. Yes pedigrees in America sells lot a sell at wal mart. IT is in a way sad, and in a way good. As a person builds a line it shows relation to that line as for bringing in out cross family line to breed from. I think the peddlers/ dealers have a spot to as they take the cull birds and sell them to others. Without those people many birds are destroyed. BUT buying from dealers you get a less chance but at times you get a great bird. Far a long ago strain lines. Even todays strain lines Are changed as soon as they leave the person who built that line. Why do American people not see this, and just work on building what they have . Improvement is the game in every loft. And it has been well known by many that if you satrt with good stock and start with birds from not more then 3 lines you can advance faster. IF the person strives towards improvement. The best birds in the world bred from by a person not setting the birds down right would soon be reduced to average birds. In race pigeon training and stesting is a must. Just as show birds to win in the big shows you have to breed to compete aginst the best there is. Here in the USA. part is so many small races, scattered clubs Combines and greater give stronger testing. ONE loft races today tests with the big boys. BUT it takes more money to enter those races If a circle of clubs say 75 mile circle would unit as a district in each state the race numbers would go way up. When the numbers is higher in birds the wins show better. But racing has advanced But has seen less new comers. interest in pigeon keeping has slowed down. Promote your club and hobby. help new comers. And if a bird is not good enough to make the cut in your loft would it be a bird that helps some body else.Judge your birds the end list birds should not be sold to flyers or as race birds. the top birds are kept or sold the better birds are the helper birds you sell or give away. The bottom end birds cut there bands off and give them away Reputation for being a sound pigeon breeder will spread and people trust you


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

"From my perspective it is very, very difficult to purchase a "Good" pigeon....you must breed one yourself !"

to true Warren, my experience has been the same!

Lawman


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I've been following this thread with some interest. For someone starting out, where would one go to look to learn how to identify a good race bird. For the show birds we have the written standards, but the racing birds seem so much more nebulous. As most of you know, I just adopted a bunch of racing birds a month or so ago from the shelter. Most(about eight) of them are really young, two were squeakers, the rest have been doing a three month moult. I seriously doubt they have ever been flown. Now I have no illusions that I may have found a diamond in a pile of coal, but I sure would like to learn how to critically look at a racing pigeon. I'm considering the idea of learning how to fly these guys. Not to race,( at least not until I have a whole lot of learning under my belt) just to learn how to train and teach them to home so I can fly them.
Margaret


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Great Question !!*



Margarret said:


> I've been following this thread with some interest. For someone starting out, where would one go to look to learn how to identify a good race bird. For the show birds we have the written standards, but the racing birds seem so much more nebulous. As most of you know, I just adopted a bunch of racing birds a month or so ago from the shelter. Most(about eight) of them are really young, two were squeakers, the rest have been doing a three month moult. I seriously doubt they have ever been flown. Now I have no illusions that I may have found a diamond in a pile of coal, but I sure would like to learn how to critically look at a racing pigeon. I'm considering the idea of learning how to fly these guys. Not to race,( at least not until I have a whole lot of learning under my belt) just to learn how to train and teach them to home so I can fly them.
> Margaret




Boy if that ain't the million dollar question !! 

I don't have the slightest idea how to begin to articulate what I "think" about this subject. I have handled perhaps tens of thousands of racers in my lifetime, and I do know that good race winners come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, colors and creeds...so to speak. 

An adult bird is much more easier to "grade" then a very young immature pigeon, which is why first and foremost I rely on the race basket to tell me who is what.

Even with the adult pigeon there are so many theories out there, that it is very much subject to interpretation. I think I am onto some of the telltale signs, but such information is worth many tens of thousands of dollars in the racing pigeon world, and would require you to "Invest" many tens of thousands of EURO's or Dollars to discover for yourself. 

My personal experience is that those who really are in the "know" are not saying anything....and those who do not have a clue will write you a book.

Don't know how this can help you....but I would give my left arm for all the answer's myself.....and with what I do know....I am unable to share less my investing partner's @ SFL USA, have me taken out and shot !


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*What is a "GOOD" Pigeon ?*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> ....... From my perspective it is very, very difficult to purchase a *"Good" *pigeon....you must breed one yourself !




It may come up sooner or later....but the definition of what *"GOOD"* is...is a very relative term. The longer you are in the game, and the better the quality of your breeding loft becomes, the higher the bar of *"GOOD" *becomes....

If your definition of *"GOOD"* is not constantly changing, and moving forward then you are not improving the quality of your stock. A recent example may just be Ludo Claessen selling off "Kirsty" for about $28,000. This bird in the Ludo loft became a "cull" since he has now rid himself of good to make room for better. 

My bird AU 07 SFL USA 181 which just won 1st place in the Flamingo International Challenge, may be this year's definition of *"GOOD"* a few years from now, unless somebody offers some outrageous price...may also fall from the definition of *"GOOD" *and simply become a typical pigeon within SFL USA, in which case a *"GOOD" * pigeon will replace him.........

Just thought this needed some clarification, since at one point in my life a long, long time ago, I once owned some *"GOOD" *pigeons which I purchased for .75 cents each at a farmers market. Which were better then the wild ones collected from some local fields......


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Good racers are easy to spot. They are the ones in the pictures with a list of multiple wins against thousands of pigeons next to their picture. You can also think a winner in one persons loft would be a cull in anothers. As for grading birds, in my opinion, the basket is the most reliable. 

Randy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Good racers are easy to spot. They are the ones in the pictures with a list of multiple wins against thousands of pigeons next to their picture. You can also think a winner in one persons loft would be a cull in anothers. As for grading birds, in my opinion, the basket is the most reliable.
> 
> Randy


 True But also at times that winning bird is not the future breeder bird. Its brothers or sisters are the breeder birds. it is just the winning bird. Many times stock birds are not the key winners BUT the producers of winners.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> It may come up sooner or later....but the definition of what *"GOOD"* is...is a very relative term. The longer you are in the game, and the better the quality of your breeding loft becomes, the higher the bar of *"GOOD" *becomes....
> 
> If your definition of *"GOOD"* is not constantly changing, and moving forward then you are not improving the quality of your stock. A recent example may just be Ludo Claessen selling off "Kirsty" for about $28,000. This bird in the Ludo loft became a "cull" since he has now rid himself of good to make room for better.
> 
> ...


Yes a person must maintain an idea of taking the birds forward. And that takes time to find that key bird to do so with.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Margarret said:


> I've been following this thread with some interest. For someone starting out, where would one go to look to learn how to identify a good race bird. For the show birds we have the written standards, but the racing birds seem so much more nebulous. As most of you know, I just adopted a bunch of racing birds a month or so ago from the shelter. Most(about eight) of them are really young, two were squeakers, the rest have been doing a three month moult. I seriously doubt they have ever been flown. Now I have no illusions that I may have found a diamond in a pile of coal, but I sure would like to learn how to critically look at a racing pigeon. I'm considering the idea of learning how to fly these guys. Not to race,( at least not until I have a whole lot of learning under my belt) just to learn how to train and teach them to home so I can fly them.
> Margaret



Well, here goes nothing......... 
When you find one single person on earth that can LOOK at a race bird and tell you whether it's "good" or not............become their partner, cause they are about to become VERY VERY rich!!  
No one will ever convince me that ANYONE can look at a bird and tell you it's good or bad, unless of course there is OBVIOUSLY something wrong with it. That goes without saying. If you want to know if it's a good breeder, then breed from it and find out. If you want to know if it's a good racer, race it and find out. That's the ONLY way you can know FOR SURE what you've got. If it was as simple as selecting a good one, we wouldn't have to buy bird after bird after bird or raise dozens of birds every year HOPING for that "good" one. We all have our own point of view as far as what we LIKE in a bird, but that don't make it good or bad. It just makes it a bird that we like for whatever reason. 
Even if you have a breeder that's raising good youngsters for you year in and year out, every single bird that is produced out of that bird is not going to be exactly the same. They may LOOK the same in appearance, but there's no way to know what in the "heart" of that little bird. 
Having said all that, there's no reason to not fly any "homer" that you raise. They can ALL fly around the loft. Racing and flying around the loft is two totally different things. 
If you want to fly some birds, raise you some babies, train them and let em' rip.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello All,

Warren has got a point when he says that a bird you thought was good when you first started out. Became not so good a few seasons or years into racing, a lot of it has to do with persective. 

Personelly a bird does not enter my breeding loft at this point unless it has a excellant flying history of its own. It doesn't matter if I bred and flew it or if it comes from another associated loft. I feel that the odds are better with the bird who has a history of top performances than with the family member that maybe didnt do so good. My reasoning for this is simple, I have limited space for breeding so the so so birds arent going to be in the mix.

So my personnel recomendation for a person starting out, is to obtain birds with the best performance records and/or breeding records of producing performance birds that you can get your hands on. Your odds of getting to the top level of your area will increase 10 fold. If you obtain the family members with so so records, yeah you may get a hit and you may not. My experience has usually been the later. 

Lawman


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I do agree that the racer may not always be the best breeder. As for a bird like Warren's Flamingo winner, that bird has a good chance of breeding good birds. Also looking at its racing record I would think it has the propencity to breed good 300 mile birds. It did not fair all that well in the early sprint races, but was better than all at 300. This bird may not be his best bet to breed for a chance at the Top Gun award (average speed). I think it takes different birds to breed together for different races. That said I think if you were sending a team of birds to this race that offspring of this bird would be a good choice to try and win the 300 money. knowing what I know about Warren, I would think this has crossed his mind. Also the top gun award may also be on his mind. Which bird to breed together for an average speed winner? My point being even winners have weaknesses. A good breeder knows those weaknesses. 
As for the 5 out of 100, I think that this is the case for most fanciers with decent birds. I also think the great breeders like Ludo, who send a dozen birds to the race and takes 12 places on the first sheet of the race results breed better than this 1 in 20. I also think the guy who breeds his winner with a grizzly because they want pretty babies, gets less than the 1 in 20.
As for breeding brothers and sisters of winners, I agree. I also think the sex of the birds makes a difference. If I have a cock that wins I breed from his brothers, a hen her sisters. If a hit pair breeds winners, but they are all cocks, pair these cocks up with winning hens. I would be more likley to breed a sibling from a winner than a pair that did not produce the year before. 

Randy


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

_hillfamilyloft, I do agree that the racer may not always be the best breeder. As for a bird like Warren's Flamingo winner, that bird has a good chance of breeding good birds. Also looking at its racing record I would think it has the propencity to breed good 300 mile birds. It did not fair all that well in the early sprint races, but was better than all at 300. This bird may not be his best bet to breed for a chance at the Top Gun award (average speed). I think it takes different birds to breed together for different races. That said I think if you were sending a team of birds to this race that offspring of this bird would be a good choice to try and win the 300 money. knowing what I know about Warren, I would think this has crossed his mind. Also the top gun award may also be on his mind. Which bird to breed together for an average speed winner? My point being even winners have weaknesses. A good breeder knows those weaknesses. 
As for the 5 out of 100, I think that this is the case for most fanciers with decent birds. I also think the great breeders like Ludo, who send a dozen birds to the race and takes 12 places on the first sheet of the race results breed better than this 1 in 20. I also think the guy who breeds his winner with a grizzly because they want pretty babies, gets less than the 1 in 20.
As for breeding brothers and sisters of winners, I agree. I also think the sex of the birds makes a difference. If I have a cock that wins I breed from his brothers, a hen her sisters. If a hit pair breeds winners, but they are all cocks, pair these cocks up with winning hens. I would be more likley to breed a sibling from a winner than a pair that did not produce the year before. 

Randy_

What you say in the most part is correct, however what about the guys with limited space that cannot keep anything but the best for breeders. If you have a set up like Ganus, Clausing, Warren? and perhaps yourself?.... you can keep all the brothers and sisters off of a top flier and/or breeder. Then criss cross the pedigrees and end up with birds that have those top birds all over in their pedigrees. I truelly wish I had the space for that, it would make rising to the top a whole lot quicker. 

So, this is why I stated;

"My reasoning for this is simple, I have limited space for breeding so the so so birds arent going to be in the mix.

So my personnel recomendation for a person starting out, is to obtain birds with the best performance records and/or breeding records of producing performance birds that you can get your hands on. Your odds of getting to the top level of your area will increase 10 fold. If you obtain the family members with so so records, yeah you may get a hit and you may not. My experience has usually been the later."

It's simple for me since my space is limited only the absolute best will make it back into the breeding loft. Do I miss out on other possible click pairings ...... sure but until I remidy the spacing issue, I have to work with what I have. The same as many others in my position.

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> Well, here goes nothing.........
> When you find one single person on earth that can LOOK at a race bird and tell you whether it's "good" or not............become their partner, cause they are about to become VERY VERY rich!!
> No one will ever convince me that ANYONE can look at a bird and tell you it's good or bad, unless of course there is OBVIOUSLY something wrong with it...........


Boy.....oh......BOY !!!  

Now, what about "EYE SIGN" experts ! Surely you don't mean them ?! 

And what about those few people who make a few bucks coming to your loft in order to "GRADE" your birds !? Surely you can't mean them !? 

 


I like the way you think ! Personally, I have always left open the possibility that there may be a tiny small handful of fanciers somewhere in the world, who might be able to select solely on looks. But, I really have my doubts.

Like you said, I do think it is possible to ID birds which have things wrong with them. But, even on this there could be much debate, because there would be no agreement on what is a "fault". Just one example might be the so called one piece tail.....I confess, I like the looks of a one piece tail, but I really have seen no confirmation that it really makes any difference in terms of performance. 

I have always felt that many of the things that fanciers are selecting for, only has to do with personal taste, and little to do with what really is needed to win a race. I know that I am not smart enough, which is why I rely on the races to tell me which ones are good in terms of racing. 

Then I take those who show they can race, and select from those whose traits that I like.......VERY GOOD POST !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I do agree that the racer may not always be the best breeder. As for a bird like Warren's Flamingo winner, that bird has a good chance of breeding good birds. Also looking at its racing record I would think it has the propencity to breed good 300 mile birds. It did not fair all that well in the early sprint races, but was better than all at 300. This bird may not be his best bet to breed for a chance at the Top Gun award (average speed). I think it takes different birds to breed together for different races. That said I think if you were sending a team of birds to this race that offspring of this bird would be a good choice to try and win the 300 money. knowing what I know about Warren, I would think this has crossed his mind. Also the top gun award may also be on his mind. Which bird to breed together for an average speed winner? My point being even winners have weaknesses. A good breeder knows those weaknesses.
> As for the 5 out of 100, I think that this is the case for most fanciers with decent birds. I also think the great breeders like Ludo, who send a dozen birds to the race and takes 12 places on the first sheet of the race results breed better than this 1 in 20. I also think the guy who breeds his winner with a grizzly because they want pretty babies, gets less than the 1 in 20.
> As for breeding brothers and sisters of winners, I agree. I also think the sex of the birds makes a difference. If I have a cock that wins I breed from his brothers, a hen her sisters. If a hit pair breeds winners, but they are all cocks, pair these cocks up with winning hens. I would be more likley to breed a sibling from a winner than a pair that did not produce the year before.
> 
> Randy


 A person has to look over what they raised ,how the bird or birds did. ,What will that bird do for the breeding loft. And what bird in the breeding loft will it replace.. Now hold birds that may later become valueable in the breding loft Is different.. But agin what bird in the old bird flying loft will it replace.If the birds raised in a given year do not bring you a possible concept of moving forwad. Then you either hold them over or sell the top birds raised that year. Birds of different strains were raised to perform on how the breeder trained and raced. From that a family wqas built. 
Passed down The birds agin are trained to the person program of training and racing. I guess to say good birds in good hands perform better. Same with lesser birds in good hand beat the good birds ,that are not trained and raced good.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lawman

Not to put my methods above all other is not my purpose. Nor does telling others they are doing things wrong cross my mind either. When someone tells me that "You are correct except" it comes quite close to the latter. 
The point that I am trying to make is that winners most likely have siblings that are more likley to be better than most. My Colorado Futurity winner has a brother that has bred me a 300mile race winner and a 250 mile bond race winner. His sisters have bred me good birds that have placed well in races. From this information I have decided to breed from an unproven brother of both these birds. Also the bond winner and 300 mile winner are both hens from different Dams. I am also breeding from two sisters to the bond winner and 300 mile winner. In my book this is not a gamble. If the futurity winner did not have related birds that were successful, yes then one could think this was a gamble or breeding from siblings a gamble. 
As for my huge opperation, I bred from 14 pairs last year, a total of 70 young birds. This year, I am looking at 12 pairs of breeders. 8 to 9 birds either siblings or nieces or nephews of my futurity winner. I have a total of 55 birds in my loft, sending about 10 "Ace in the Hole's way". 45 birds is what I will start my season with. 
As for the birds that I am sending him. They will be what I would breed for myself. Limiting my breeders to 12 pair leaves me many good birds that I will not put in the breeding loft. Thus his gain. Will every bird that I send him breed winners? No, but it will save him four years of trial and error and hopefully increase his odds for success. 
I am not here to defend or preach my breeding methods, only to give others information on what I have learned that works. Breeding from siblings that win or breed winners works for me. What birds did I send to money races? Siblings and offspring of winners and offspring of pairs that have bred winners. Also I sent a few lottery birds. Which birds won races or money? Who needs to ask? 
As for a size of an opperation and success. One could look at Ludo. I also think that fanciers like Warren, who know his birds well can be successful with 50 birds just as well as 300. He does have one advantage, the race teams he sends off to test and futurities increases his feedback. My opperation is small, but helping people like "Ace" helps me. In two years he may have 50 birds off of my families flying in a club with 16 members. Something that I can't do here. 
If ever I tell a fancier in here that what they are doing is wrong, that day will be the day they kick my butt in a race and humble me. I am simply telling you what works for me. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> _)
> ........."My reasoning for this is simple, I have limited space for breeding so the so so birds arent going to be in the mix.
> 
> So my personnel recomendation for a person starting out, is to obtain birds with the best performance records and/or breeding records of producing performance birds that you can get your hands on. Your odds of getting to the top level of your area will increase 10 fold. If you obtain the family members with so so records, yeah you may get a hit and you may not. My experience has usually been the later."
> ...


_

Lawman,

Once upon a time, I would have stated something like what you said, and would have felt with a high degree of confidence, that I was correct.

Then a few things happened which came along and messed some of my theories up. I generally accept the concept you put forth, that stocking a race winner over a non-flown bird, or in your words a so-so bird, is the kind of thinking that I would generally fall back on, and would agree with.

Here in lies what I think could be the catch 22. First of all, regardless of who the fancier is, there is always going to be a limit on the number of breeders one can keep. It could be 5 pairs, 50 pairs, or 150 pairs...somewhere there has to be a limit. Since we are still in a numbers game, if you are able to breed 300 YB's in a season, you will have an advantage over the guy who can only breed 25 YB's with everything else being equal. 

The problem or perhaps challenge is the better term, with the idea of "Only the absolute best, make it back into the breeding loft" is this. (If the reference is directed towards best race birds) The only real way to determine who the best breeders are, or will be, is to breed from them.

The sire and dam of this year's 350 mile Flamingo, never saw the inside of a shipping crate. There was a pair of late hatches from the above sire, which also never made it to a race, and they were used as pumper's, quite by accident they raised a round on their own, you guessed it.....American Ace type of winners were produced. The Ace hen was mated to another late hatch brother who was never flown, and again winners were produced. There are now various pairings from quite a number of birds all down the family tree, from the original unflown cock bird, who sired a pair of late hatches, who you can trace 80% of my winners in the last several breeding season's.

The point here, to me anyway, was that in several of these cases, had it not been from breeding from the brother or sister who may have either not have been flown, or were simply there at the end of the season, a major portion of my success in the last two season's would not have occurred. And it was not due to any brilliance on my part....for the most part, it was an "accident", which started back in 2004. This family line has now been expanded, with winners popping up everywhere along the closely bred branches of this family tree.

I will be watching one particular pair with interest in 2008. The cock was a very beautiful bird which showed great promise in the spring of this year, but was injured when he hit a wire trying to avoid a Cooper's hawk. The last four flight feathers were so badly torn and mangled from the wing, that I thought he would never be 100%, so I did what I now think was brilliant. Rather then losing him by training etc. I walked him over to my stock loft....I changed my mind a few times...and took him back to the YB loft....thinking of my performance rule/law of only keeping the best...but in the end, I thought better of it and placed him back in the stock loft. His brother was sent to the Flamingo.....you know where I am going with this ? Yes, his brother won the 350 mile event. This injured bird has now matured into a very beautiful looking ideal SMITH specimen and is being paired to a cousin who won several diploma's and made it onto the top UPC bird of the year list. These two look like a pair made in heaven, and I feel confident enough to say they should produce One Loft type material. I even sold his half brother who was in the 2006 Flamingo to make room for him.

I know Randy is correct in terms of being onto something, because had I not broken my own rules of keeping only the best racers, then I never would have discovered several very key breeders who only had good looks and good SFL bloodlines going for them. 

I think it was Bill "The Book" Richardson, who wrote an article concerning some famous race horses, where family members did so-so in racing, but turned out pure gold in breeding. If I find it Lawman, I will post it. 

I am not exactly happy with this discovered knowledge, as it does complicate matters in terms of writing a blue print to breeding some great pigeons. I am convinced however that Randy and other's are correct in that star breeders are often the brother or sister to your star racers, and often had a so-so racing career themselves. It was a concept that I resisted, but my experience has shown it to be true. 

Now that I have accepted this fact, I can see why I over looked my star breeder in his early days, in spite the fact he was producing from day #1. I over looked him because he was not the direct offspring of a Dutch Racing Champion like most of my orginal foundation breeders. He was out of the *Sister* to a Great Racing Champion !  Looking back, it all makes sense now.......... 
___________________


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Warren,

Your right on the article about the horse that did so so on the race track but went on to be pure gold when breeding.

My point was if you only have limited space, you have to make a choice. Like it or not no matter how big your lofts are we all have limited space. A choice has to be made as to what will make it back into the breeding loft. My choice at least for the time being is going to be only to bring back in the top performers. Does this mean I may miss out on top breeders as with your pair, perhaps yes, perhaps no. There is no way to know untill the time comes when I can expand my operation and add more breeders into the program.

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lawman,

No disagreement here. Unless you acquire or otherwise develope a very pre-potent breeder, then the best thing to do is what you are doing. 

That is the game plan which I followed, until quite by accident, I discovered a breeder with some very pre-potent genes, which have surfaced not only in his offspring, but in his grandchildren as well. Because of this unusual circumstance, I have been able to breed winners on down his line, even with the employment of some extreme inbreeding, with much success. 

I think having a very closely bred pre-potent family line, makes the use of brothers or sisters of very sucessful racers more practical, but it's certainly not a cure all, or a success in every situation, as you mention.

Good discussion....if not a little off where the thread started.....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Boy.....oh......BOY !!!
> 
> Now, what about "EYE SIGN" experts ! Surely you don't mean them ?!


BAH.......HUMBUG!!  



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And what about those few people who make a few bucks coming to your loft in order to "GRADE" your birds !? Surely you can't mean them !?


"They" don't get MY money!!  







SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I have always felt that many of the things that fanciers are selecting for, only has to do with personal taste, and little to do with what really is needed to win a race. I know that I am not smart enough, which is why I rely on the races to tell me which ones are good in terms of racing.


I've always thought that too. I did ask a "local" fancier who our combine asked to "judge" the show birds a couple of years ago, what he was looking for, and to be quite honest, I didn't understand a thing he said!!  

I guess the breeding and the racing is what tells the REAL story. Once in a while you just might get lucky. We've got a cock bird that we bought about 3 years ago from a man out in Colorado. He was selling some of his YB race team that was left over. From the day this bird got here, I liked him. Can't explain why, just something about him. I've mated him to two different hens and to be quite honest, didn't get much. Birds that did "ok" but nothing to get excited about. Last year (2006) one of his youngsters, a cock bird, did better than any of his other youngsters did, but STILL nothing to get all worked up over. I didn't want to put him on the OB race team, but there was "something" about this bird I liked. He was a spitting image of his Dad for one thing, so I thought, "I'll breed off of him and see what happens". Two of his four babies were our best two birds in YB's and are both on the OB team for 2008. The hen was first to the loft on all of her races. (A Races). The cock was first to the loft in all of his races. (B Races). Pretty good performance for nest mates. Only time will tell, but it may turn out that this cock bird I like so much and can't explain why, produces "so so" racers, but "good" (maybe better than good??) breeders............Oh what fun this is.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I just want to say thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question and also to everyone who is adding to this thread. As I said, I'm a show person, don't know zip about racing, but thanks to all of you I have learned a great deal following this discussion. I do have a probably silly question. What is a one piece tail? I haven't come across this term before and couldn't find it anywhere with google etc. And why might it be a fault?

Margaret


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Margarret said:


> I just want to say thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question and also to everyone who is adding to this thread. As I said, I'm a show person, don't know zip about racing, but thanks to all of you I have learned a great deal following this discussion. I do have a probably silly question. What is a one piece tail? I haven't come across this term before and couldn't find it anywhere with google etc. And why might it be a fault?
> 
> Margaret


It's not a fault........just another "advertisement" ploy as SOME folks just like a one tail feather bird. It's actually a term that describes a bird that keeps all of it's tail feathers together, giving it the appearance of have "one" tail feather as opposed to 10. Some birds when relaxed and just sitting or casually walking around will show 3 or 4 tail feathers. Personally, as long as they have all 10, it could care less how they "carry" them.  
Just another one of those "crazy" things a pigeon fancier came up with one day when he didn't have anything else to do I guess.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> It's not a fault........just another "advertisement" ploy as SOME folks just like a one tail feather bird. It's actually a term that describes a bird that keeps all of it's tail feathers together, giving it the appearance of have "one" tail feather as opposed to 10. Some birds when relaxed and just sitting or casually walking around will show 3 or 4 tail feathers. Personally, as long as they have all 10, it could care less how they "carry" them.
> Just another one of those "crazy" things a pigeon fancier came up with one day when he didn't have anything else to do I guess.


Thanks Renee. Mystery solved. 

Margaret


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## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

this is my first post on this site.great site,and i recognize a few of these names from flying pigeons.i am just getting back in the sport.havent flown since 2004 ybs.luckily,i let a fellow fancier the "loan" of my key breeders,so i will get back to it a little easier.anyway,getting to the subject of this thread,and man this is a good one-the one that made me sign up,i believe there is no way more than 5 percent of what is bred turns out to be a champion flyer or breeder.i found the trick for me was to decide what i wanted to be successful at-buy birds that had a chance to be successful,and then did a whole bunch of breeding and flying until i had success.coming back this time i can say looking back at the purchases i made to get 4 pairs of "proven" breeders was very many more pigeons than that.and all of my pigeons came from 1 fancier who had 1)the pigeon (type) i was looking for.2) he had other breeds that were perfect to cross back and forth to.3)he was a trustworthy person to deal with in the first place.my point...dont even think youre ever going to get quality birds without the work,planning,not being afraid to move birds who dont produce,being smart about what birds to send to a race.(i lost atleast 3 or 4 over the years from ignorance),not understanding form-man,i could go on and on.anyway.great thread. k-will


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