# "Wise old sayings", or "Silly old sayings"



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I was wondering if we all could share some of the "wise old sayings" about pigeon racing. Not necessarily exact quotes, but get the idea out there. Such as one I had imparted to me recently:

"If a young bird comes home from 350 miles in decent time, put it in the stock loft".
(My outlook on this one is "perhaps". It depends on what else I have to breed from)

Or this one recently said to me by a great flyer:

"Smaller in size hens are usually the big winners".
(My personal take is that I just don't know yet, but believe that small birds, expecially hens, might do better in races with little wind)

Or how about the ever popular (first credited to Rotondo I believe):

"Make your first training toss from 40 miles. Whatever you lose, you were going to lose anyway".
(my thoughts: I could only dream about being the flyer Rotondo was, but this method is something I could not live with. Sorry dude)

or:

"Get your young birds on the road while they are still squeaking".
(I know a flyer that has done this, and it was fifty-fifty in results of the birds coming home from the first toss. Almost every good flyer I know believes that young birds have to be "routing" for at least a half hour, before taking them out on training tosses. I concur) (but what the heck do I know)

One that has perplexed me for a long time is the one that basically goes something like this:

"Breed for performance and pay no attention to color". 
(I agree with this except for a couple of little pesky details. If I had a splash that flew well, should I mate it with another splash that flew well? Because when you pair slashes together, you gravitate towards more white birds and do that another generation or two and you will have "all white birds", and we all (well, most all) agree that white birds are at a disavantage due to being hawk food more often, and having feather structure that hinders them for long distance races), (I also wonder about size, structure and eyesign playing into this equation) (I want to mkae it clear that I believe "eyesign" is silly, although I know some old time flyers that swear by it).

What is your favorite "wise old saying" or "silly old saying" about pigeon racing?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Hi conditionfreak,
About the 40miles first toss, though I never did it myself (I start @ 7miles), I know a very good flyer who tells me this. We have more or less the same bloodlines and I believe that's the way he does it and he's a regular winner at the distance.
As for colour, though I agree with you about keeping down the white colour in pieds, my dominant colours are dark cheq, dark chequer pied and red chequers with the odd Blue bar and Mealy/Silver, I always wondered about this saying that light coloured birds are more prone to hawk attacks. Many a time (would I say most times), in my flock, it's not the pied birds that were hit, so it makes me wonder? I once had an almost white bird (from a splash and a dark cheq) that was a fantastic flyer, she never was hit once. I had another champion hen that was a splash and was never hit once, she would always break early and win by huge margins like most of my good birds. On the other hand, my mentor had this Dark Chequer hen who would smash the competition every time at 500Miles+ (Every fancier in India must have heard about Misty Flight?) who was hit by a hawk twice in the 600Miler and still managed to place first and second.
Of course nobody knows what happened to birds that failed to return...

And if a man is able to tell what bird is flying at a certain distance of say a mile let it be a crow, a pigeon or whatever, how can a hawk not be able to see it? It surely doesn't need to be white?
But maybe is the saying that pure white birds are poor flyers true?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

some one on here posted something about sexing the birds.. he said an old timer told him.

"if it lays eggs it is a hen, if it does not, is still may be a hen"... thought that good..lol..


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha

As to the white color thing. I believe that it is not actually the color white that makes them targets. It is that in a flock of pigeons (be it a race or just flying around and having fun), there are almost always far more "colored" birds than white birds. Therefore, for the predator bird going into a flock of pigeons scattering every which way, it is a matter of "targeting". It is easier to stay focused on a target that stands out, than to stay focused on a target that blends in (ie: a blue bar in a flock of blue bars and blue checks). I believe the general concensus is that if you had a flock of red checks with a couple of blue bars, that a predator bird would most likely "target" one of the blue bars.

Having said all of that, it is believed that predator birds target those they perceive as young and inexperienced, or injured/old. Reminds me of what naturalists say about those gazells jumping way up in the air as they run from the approach of a lion other predator. The scientists/naturalists say it is a way of letting the lion know "I am healthy and young and you might as well just find another to go after".

So...any bird is subject to being targeted and taken by a predator bird. For a variety of reasons perceived by us and probably some we haven't thought of yet. Those with experience evading predators and those that are just lucky, usually fair best. Those that stand out or are less healthy, usually do not fair well. Of course, most pigeon flyers will tell you a story of how the hawk went into their loft and killed their best bird and left the others alone. Go figure.

I bet in a flock of all white birds, a dark check with them would have a high chance of being the target of a predator bird.

But many old timers tell me that the flight feathers of a white bird do not hold up in a long race. That their feathers are not as structurally sound as a colored bird. Of course there have been great white long distance birds recorded. So, what's a feller to do?


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I've heard a lot of "old sayings". I find that a lot of people don't know what they're talking about and are just repeating what they've heard. Or, they may think they know what the meaning is...but, you can usually spot the BS once they try to go further with it.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

On that color part, what does the hawk actually see ? I think the vision is different from what we visualize about a white bird. Also, for being the odd bait out, a black spread might be the one in a kit of whites for the hawk ?


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

As per Rotondo....Only experienced racing pigeon people should toss at 40 miles the 1st time out...He also says,if you breed 75 to 100 YB`s,and only need 60 or so,this 40 mile tosss will get you to 60 birds...You might lose a couple of good ones,but all or almost all of the duds will not make it....

I have thought about this for many years...The only reason I have not tried it,is because I only breed 30 birds,and give away 5 to 8 of them to a good buddy....Alamo


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I have a flier in my club his birds first toss last year was 30-40 miles can't remember which, but he said they all came home. He had them routing for awhile though.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

nice thread


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

My first year before I got in a depressing rut, I had my birds up to 10 miles and they were still squeaking/high-pitched grunting. I didn't have a settling cage so I just let them out as soon as I put them in there. Gave them a week or two to start coming out on their own and learn to come back in. Then I started putting them in crates and letting them go in front of the loft. Moved them around the yard getting farther away from the loft and more out of sight. That teaches them to kit faster and forces them to fly instead of being loft potatoes. Much better than throwing things at them or waving brooms/shovels/etc to scare them into flight. 

And then I won my first two races 

Since then, we built a new YB loft right in the middle of breeding season, so that set them back in 2009. Had a ton of flyaways with the older YBs being cooped up for a month. Last year I had a setback because I had prisoners in the YB loft over the winter. No breeder loft to put them in. More flyaways. This year I had the same problem but we built a breeder loft pretty quick, so I have a nice group of +/- 40 birds that are flying very well. Between losing almost all my birds on the first YB race two years in a row, a dog killing some of my best breeders, and not having the money to race OBs, I just haven't been as "in to it" as I was in 2008. I'm working on kicking myself in the butt enough to getting around to doing things the way I used to.


I agree, I'm not taking my birds 40 miles on the first toss! That just seems cruel to the babies. Their first toss is stressful enough WITHOUT taking them way down the road.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Also, about the color, don't worry about it! "Hawk bait" - no. If they are good, smart, fast, _healthy_ birds, the hawk will not catch them. I have a 2009 white cockbird in my OB loft that has yet to get hit. Chased? Well, yeah. But caught? No. It wasn't until this OB season that I moved another almost solid white bird down there with it. She also has never been hit  I have reds, grizzles, indigos, saddles blacks, whites, splashes, blues...and none of them are hit enough to say that they are at a disadvantage.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> My first year before I got in a depressing rut, I had my birds up to 10 miles and they were still squeaking/high-pitched grunting. I didn't have a settling cage so I just let them out as soon as I put them in there. Gave them a week or two to start coming out on their own and learn to come back in. Then I started putting them in crates and letting them go in front of the loft. Moved them around the yard getting farther away from the loft and more out of sight. That teaches them to kit faster and forces them to fly instead of being loft potatoes. Much better than throwing things at them or waving brooms/shovels/etc to scare them into flight.
> 
> And then I won my first two races
> 
> ...


i lost more ybs due to flyaways this year than all the birds i lost last year 
it's giving me less hope about ever racing 
not i have one round i'm just going to open the trap and let them be ..open loft for a while ...


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> some one on here posted something about sexing the birds.. he said an old timer told him.
> 
> "if it lays eggs it is a hen, if it does not, is still may be a hen"... thought that good..lol..


Guilty. The old guy still races. And I have a couple of his hens as well as a couple of his "might be hen" in the Jail. So far his birds are providing the brains to the rest of the crew here. Hopefully they fly as well as they figure out how to open sliding doors.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

"A young bird reaches his peak condition when the last flight (10 ) has bloomed and is growing. The flight is about one-half grown when the bird reaches top condition". Joe Rotondo

"Even when a bird walks,one feels that it has wings." Lemierr


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> But many old timers tell me that the flight feathers of a white bird do not hold up in a long race. That their feathers are not as structurally sound as a colored bird. Of course there have been great white long distance birds recorded. So, what's a feller to do?


Yes, even the primaries of Mealies/Silver are all frayed at the end or before the end of a season, in young birds and yearlings.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

JPSNAPDY......Sorry,but I have to disagree with you....Most of my birds are RC..MLY..Silver`s....And they don`t get frayed feathering.....Splashes and WF`s birds at auction seem to bring in higher bids here in this part of the country..Alot of WF`s are very good birds....I`m not a color guy for the sake of color in birds...It just so happens that my RC`s were better at 500 & 600 mile races.....Alamo


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Alamo said:


> JPSNAPDY......Sorry,but I have to disagree with you....Most of my birds are RC..MLY..Silver`s....And they don`t get frayed feathering.....Splashes and WF`s birds at auction seem to bring in higher bids here in this part of the country..Alot of WF`s are very good birds....I`m not a color guy for the sake of color in birds...It just so happens that my RC`s were better at 500 & 600 mile races.....Alamo


Hi Alamo,
I always value your opinion.
Yes, a lot of pieds are very good, in fact a lot of my birds* are* pieds, nor do I look at colour though they tend to be DC, DCP, BC, RC, RCP and Splashes with the occasional Blue or Mealy (no grizzles). Some of my absolute best birds were splashes. 
I live in India and where I stay, the weather is hot most of the year (upto 42-45 Celsius in the shade) and humid (85% & upto 100% during the monsoon) and I can assure you that the darker feathers don't fray but the lighter feathers do when flown hard especially in young birds. On the same wing the black primaries are good but the white ones frayed.  
Old birds don't have this problem. I'm of the old school and I won't send YB cocks beyond 250 miles and hens 400. My mentor used to send them all upto 550 miles, but he was an exceptional flyer. I should have asked him about this when I could.
I must say that it does not prevent the birds from performing, it's just that when you reach the end of the YB season you sit and realize how some feather tips are worn out and pointed.
I'd be glad to know if it's the effect of the sun like fanciers believe around here or genetics/strain of birds (not likely), some mistake I make or something else. 
Could you help find out?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There are way too many good distance birds that were reds, whites, and splashes to believe in that. Personally I have never seen any of my light colored birds with frayed feathers.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I think alot of birds get bad feathering by having alot of chicken wire in and out of the loft..Also training baskets made with wire is not good....I do have flight cages with 1/2 inch wire...but I have no wire INSIDE my flying loft...I use dowels,and not wire....

JPSNAPDY....my son was in India about 6 months ago..He took alot of pictures...One picture is my "Favorite"....It is a picture of his window in the hotel,with a pigeon on the window sill...Would you beleive it is a beautifull RED CHECKER !!! Looking good with no frayed feathering !! hahahahahahaha!!! Alamo


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

jpsnapdy said:


> Hi Alamo,
> I always value your opinion.
> Yes, a lot of pieds are very good, in fact a lot of my birds* are* pieds, nor do I look at colour though they tend to be DC, DCP, BC, RC, RCP and Splashes with the occasional Blue or Mealy (no grizzles). Some of my absolute best birds were splashes.
> *I live in India and where I stay, the weather is hot most of the year (upto 42-45 Celsius in the shade) and humid (85% & upto 100% during the monsoon) and I can assure you that the darker feathers don't fray but the lighter feathers do when flown hard especially in young birds. On the same wing the black primaries are good but the white ones frayed.  *
> ...


That is correct. Certain conditions affect feathers differently. It is the UV rays that is harmful to those white feathers and not necessarily the heat. It is like us putting sunscreen to protect our skin. People should wonder why pigeon wings and tails have dark tips--certainly nature is not that stupid to provide something that is no value!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

It also bothers me that when people see exceptions to the rule, they think that is the rule when in reality it is just that--an exceptions. Many of those silly old sayings have certain validity brought or learned through experience. One of them is to put lemon juice in their drinker before ACV becomes fashionable. Fanciers noticed that it works and science caught up and realized that acidity in pigeon drinker does seem to have advantage. It tends to reduce canker problem, for example.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I was wondering if we all could share some of the "wise old sayings" about pigeon racing. Not necessarily exact quotes, but get the idea out there. Such as one I had imparted to me recently:
> 
> *"If a young bird comes home from 350 miles in decent time, put it in the stock loft".*
> (My outlook on this one is "perhaps". It depends on what else I have to breed from)
> ...



Many interesting old sayings.

The first one is from experience. In the past(in the beginning of racing history) young birds have difficulty flying longer distances so when they see a young bird capable of doing so they say stock it. Now through selections
young birds may be able to do it so now the old sayings sound invalid.

The second one where smaller size is favored seems to be still true. Longer races seem to be smaller birds and for shorter ones, the sprinter, bigger ones. My guess is that it has something to do with logistics. On longer races you don't want to drag heavy weights else you will run out of energy.

The third one which Rotondo favor seems to be a homing test. My guess is that he is trying to eliminate poor homing birds. Ferals (true wild ferals) will have difficulty making that distance or not at all. Even mix homers might have difficulty on that as well.

The fourth one about squeakers I have no experience with because I don't toss my birds until they stopped squeaking. 

The last one about performance seems to be true. It is a performance base competition and not a beauty pageant. The problem is the selection process. If you stock/breed for color (because it is beautiful) you become lenient in your selection. I am partly guilty on this, unfortunately.

Ok. This is excellent thread. Bring out some old sayings and see if they are still valid or just plain wrong.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I have to add that color in nature does affect predation. That should be obvious. Animals tend to take color of the environment they are in because they were naturally selected for it. For example, polar bear is white. It is about camouflage advantage. In our current setting white pigeons are too obvious that they get noticed. If you are a prey you don't want to get noticed. Why do many pigeons are blue and checker? Simple, it matches rock color which help them survive. It also matches the color of the sky--all trying not to get attention from predators. And why some looks pied and splash? Simple. If you look at rock caves/cliff you can see their white poops. It seems to match their bodies as well--again camouflage.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

White/lighter animals may get targeted and stick out like sore thumbs, but that doesn't mean they'll get killed the first time a predator sees it. Either way, pigeons have no camo at all as domestic birds. They aren't on the rocky sea cliffs of Europe anymore. They're out here where hawks and falcons know exactly what they are when they see them flying, and they come running for a quick meal. Blue, red, black, white, purple, green, polka doted - all pigeons out here attract attention and they all have just as good of a chance of escaping as the next one. The lucky ones will see the predators first and have a head start on getting away. The slower/weaker/sickly and just plain unlucky ones get caught and killed.
So in summary, I will not discriminate against a bird just because of its color. As long as it comes home, it will continue flying until it dies or I decide to stock it. Breeder-wise, if it's a good bird, I don't care if it has one wing, two toes, and blind in one eye, or if it's white, blue, or pink with zebra stripes - I'll try it out in the breeding loft.
As far as light colored/white flights being weaker or more easily frayed/broken/whatever...there is a reason why people like Dennis Kuhn are doing so well with white or mostly white birds. And there's a reason why the Sion strain, which were mostly ash-reds, could fly back from 600+ miles with no problem. Do your best to keep them as healthy as possible during moulting so they make good, strong feathers. Messing with the moulting cycles may have something to do with inferior feathers. If they've had their flights longer than they normally would due to controlled lighting, they'll be weaker than fresh, new feathers with less miles on them. It reminds me of changing the oil in your car. It can take a lot of miles before changing, but if you hold off on changing it, your car isn't going to work as well. Either way, if the flights are all beat up by the end of the racing season, that's fine, as long as it did well in the races. Thinking back to the WWI and II birds like Cher Ami and Mary Of Exeter...makes me think that there is a little more to fast flying than good feathers. They got banged up pretty bad but still kept going as hard as they could until they couldn't anymore.
Again, all I'm saying is I won't descriminate because of color. Selectively breeding for blue birds because you think they are better quality or have a better chance at surviving is just as bad as selectively breeding for white birds because you think they are pretty. You'll start to forget that it's the race results that count.


Also, original rock doves were blue bars and checks with white rumps. The pieds and splashes came with mutations and selective breeding.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

jpsnapdy said:


> Hi Alamo,
> I always value your opinion.
> Yes, a lot of pieds are very good, in fact a lot of my birds* are* pieds, nor do I look at colour though they tend to be DC, DCP, BC, RC, RCP and Splashes with the occasional Blue or Mealy (no grizzles). Some of my absolute best birds were splashes.
> I live in India and where I stay, the weather is hot most of the year (upto 42-45 Celsius in the shade) and humid (85% & upto 100% during the monsoon) and I can assure you that *the darker feathers don't fray but the lighter feathers do when flown hard especially in young birds. On the same wing the black primaries are good but the white ones frayed*.
> ...


There is a study (I believe it was posted in PT also) that says that the darker pigeon (black spread) has a lower body temperature than the white pigeon when exposed to sun, that is, the white gets hot opposed to common belief that the white bird should be cooler as it reflects more. It had something to do similar to the green house effect in the white pigeons.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Heavy betting of racing pigeon pools brings many families closer together-they live in smaller houses- JWQ


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> There is a study (I believe it was posted in PT also) that says that the darker pigeon (black spread) has a lower body temperature than the white pigeon when exposed to sun, that is, the white gets hot opposed to common belief that the white bird should be cooler as it reflects more. It had something to do similar to the green house effect in the white pigeons.


interesting


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I know that a university studied the pigeons targeted by hawks for attacks and they concluded that pigeons with a white rump were targeted less than pigeons without a white rump. These were all feral pigeons studied and not homing pigeons (although presumably there could have been a few lost homers in the flock).

I read the study and conclusions, and I do not remember them ever mentioning how the white rumps might help with hiding the birds due to the spots of bird poop around on the ground. I bet they didn't even think about that.

That is an excellent point. Putting that together with the universities conclusion that white rumped pigeons were targeted less. The university study did not know why the white rumped pigeons were targeted less, only that they were.

A simple, but brilliant point there. Congrats on your logical thinking.

Here are a couple of interesting links about this subject.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/05.05/01-pigeon.html

On the link below, scroll down until you see the picture of the two pigeons. One with a white rump and one without. Then read the story there.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-S...=university study pigeons white rumps&f=false


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is a copy and paste from another web site, that briefly explains the sturdy.

"Here is an article about how pigeons with white rump patch survive better than those that don't have it.

The following is from an article published in "Nature" (April 21, 2005)

How a white feather can outfox a falcon 
Tim Radford, science editor 
Thursday April 21, 2005.
When aerial menace zooms in from behind, the feral pigeon does what a dove's got to do - it shows the white feather and stands a better chance of getting clean away, US scientists say.
Albert Palleroni of Harvard University and three colleagues report in Nature today that they set out to solve the puzzle of the white patch often found on the rump of the feral pigeon Columbia livia.

In seven years the researchers recorded 1,485 attacks by five adult peregrine falcons on flocks of feral pigeons flying around Davis, California. They also observed 309 attacks by juveniles. They made a note of the plumage of the luckless target.

And they found that whether the peregrines were at the peak of their powers, or still on a learning curve, the result was the same. Only one dead pigeon in 50 had a set of white feathers on its rump.

The scientists reasoned that the white patch might be an evolutionary adaptation that helped its inheritor to live longer and procreate more. Falcons swoop with fearsome speed: the fastest have been clocked at 157 metres a second - around 320mph.

So they tested the idea by capturing 756 white-rumped and blue-grey pigeons and swapping their plumage coloration. They then released the birds again, and monitored the kill rate of three particular peregrines.

Those birds who could no longer show the white feather fell victim to peregrine strike as often as the blue-coloured pigeons, while the newly whitened showed a much increased ability to survive.

No pigeon can out fly a falcon. They escape by aerobatics. The white patch somehow distracts the peregrine.

The peregrine falcon almost disappeared from large areas of its range 40 years ago, but has slowly been making a comeback. As more falcons begin to cull the pigeons in modern cities, the US scientists argue, an increasing proportion of their prey will start to show the white feather.

Some fanciers also reported very good results through painting the underside of the wing and the side of the body normally covered by the wing with red ink. This red flashing is thought to confuse the predator with the result that he pursues other prey in preference. The mechanism with which this is accomplished appears to be similar to the study reported in "Nature"."


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Hey walt, your message box is full again.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I once read where some pigeon flyer in England,(I Think),painted big eyes in red on top of a few of his pigeons....The hawks would NOT attack these few birds while flying....When he would let his pigeons out to fly,and there was no "EYE" painted pigeons flying with them,he HAD hawk attacks....So he always had a couple of "Eye" painted pigeons every year,to protect his flock.....Alamo

*PS: If you have 2 or 3 dud racing pigeons....**Would it be worth your while to TRY this ??*


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

One has to remember that back in the 1980s larger cities imported the perigine falcons to there city . Then released them to kill the feral flocks of pigeons. YES this is true. Then As the falcon began to nest and kill many more pigeon Some cities wondered what could be donw now with the falcon problems. But it was to late. Then with federal protection hawks such as the Cooper has made a very strong come back. So today pigeon racing has a hawk problem like never befor. Far as color In nature odd color does not last as long It is harder to hide from the dangers. Far as feather A good hard feather that is supple enough to hold up to flight conditions Is over looked in some color lines. Weaker webing that frays more. stiffer quills that flex less break. The softer colored birds. Sometimes have a thinner feathere almost can see through it And webbing not as strong. BREED away from this by monoting feather quality Color WHITE It can race well And race the 500 miles. BUT Quality Has not been maintained by many For racing. Add that quality back And the white wins agin. A person can color breed as long as the do not go blind by it. Quality is that and qualit from 1 color to the next must be bred in. While color suffers it comes back. Once you build quality with in the color line You can better maintain it through selection AND the time to time color out cross to keep it strong. IT is not sion. jannsen. fabry, It is breed for need of required performance. Which agin TAKES time. It is easyer if you fly 1 direct course year after year Like other countries do. But around the clock it takes a little longer building a line that can do well head wind cross wind tail wind and such. The old days sure a 8 week old bird was getting a short toss. AND came home well today traing gets done different. But still get there birds on the road early and They win when race seaon comes along as They selected there team early removed the so so birds And trained a smaller group that showed early performance and abilty. Its just the person the method the results And the years of working your birds to your method. But in the end Its your enjoyment of the hobby no matter how good or how bad your birds do that keeps you interested. A challenge Remember if you have a bird that is pink with yellow polka dots AND it wins You will soon have many people wanting your birds with pink then yellow polka dots. So People want winners no matter the color.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

"Dr.Hubbard conducted a study of the color of feathers and its influence on the homing ability of the pigeon. race reports in the N.Y. Metropolitan area were used since many thousands of pigeons participated in each race from 100 to 600 miles. The results of this study were never published. However on a percentage basis, the Grizzles were first in performance and the Blues were second. There was little difference in the performance of birds of other colors."-Otto Meyer,ARPN, 1970


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Alamo said:


> I think alot of birds get bad feathering by having alot of chicken wire in and out of the loft..Also training baskets made with wire is not good....I do have flight cages with 1/2 inch wire...but I have no wire INSIDE my flying loft...I use dowels,and not wire....
> 
> Alamo


Most asian lofts do use 1/2 x 1/2 wire, dowels are not available and way too expensive to make and also unsafe due to predators both animal and human. If wire were to be the cause, ALL feathers would be damaged, not just the light coloured ones, right? My birds never have "bad", damaged feathering nor fret marks either.

But this got me thinking, do you give your birds open loft? 

Because of your hawks menace, I'd say no? 
Many of us here, including me, live in the city where there are no hawks. we let the YBs get a lot of open loft, rain or shine. More control and locking up come with pairing up... So I'd say it's the extra exposure to the sun and the elements that fray the feathers, maybe the basket too. Mine are wicker and dowels baskets.


And Becky, please believe what you want, I believe in freedom of thought. I'd like to know what makes you associate frayed feathers with bad birds?


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

My old birds,weather permitting always have open loft.....Young Birds NO NO NO NO NEVER...The reason is not the hawk problem....I do not want my YB`s to peck on the ground....I want them to fly,land and trap....Not fly,land,and go to the ground and peck....On race day,it`s fly..land....trap ... to get clocked in !!!! Old birds are old birds...Let them do what they want WITHIN REASON !! They have to fly 500 & 600 mile races....They need to be in top form...That means let them be pigeons,and what pigeons do...They love to pick for minerals etc....Even with all the stuff I put in the grit bowl,they still love to pick around...And since they have built up a great immunity to things in general,it is ok for them..But the YB`s are still building up there`s,and I don`t want anything they might get from the ground to interfere with this NATURAL prosess....Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

re lee: if someone can decipher your writings (I can but it ain't easy), there is alot of experience and wisdom in your thoughts.

alamo: I find it hard to understand your thoughts about letting old birds "go to ground and have open loft" and not letting the young birds do the same.

I did understand your reasons, but I don't understand the logic.

Don't you want the young birds to also build up their immunity and resistance of what is around them?

On a related note, I have always thought that humans live in a too sterile and sanitary environment. I believe that is why so many have health problems such as ashma, allergies and the like.

When I was a kid, (admittedly a hillbilly gene pool), we used to run around playing tag and kick the can, with no shoes on. We did not bath our cats and dogs. We didn't worry about eating peanuts or drinking milk. The old and young did not get flu shots. etc., etc.

I can not recall ever knowing of someone lactose intolerent, allergic to peanuts, dying of the flu or having allergies.

Maybe it is just my faulty memory, but it just didn't seem like there were those problems around in the fifties.

Then we started using anti-bacterial soap, spray and whatever else seemed to make sense to keep our immediate enviroment as sterile as possible. Then the next generation and the one following it, are full of allegies and such. My grandson is allergic to dairy products, peanuts, eggs (yes, eggs, natures perfect food), and another that I can't even remember right now. I lived on eggs and milk, and loved peanuts. So did my wife. So what happened? Bad luck or decades of too much sanitation and protection?

I'm just asking. Are the original rock doves that our homing pigeons originated from, more genetically and stamina wise, healthier than the birds in our backyard lofts? The ones we constantly protect from bacteria and their own droppings?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Alamo said:


> My old birds,weather permitting always have open loft.....Young Birds NO NO NO NO NEVER...The reason is not the hawk problem....I do not want my YB`s to peck on the ground....I want them to fly,land and trap....Not fly,land,and go to the ground and peck....On race day,it`s fly..land....trap ... to get clocked in !!!! Old birds are old birds...Let them do what they want WITHIN REASON !! They have to fly 500 & 600 mile races....They need to be in top form...That means let them be pigeons,and what pigeons do...They love to pick for minerals etc....Even with all the stuff I put in the grit bowl,they still love to pick around...And since they have built up a great immunity to things in general,it is ok for them..But the YB`s are still building up there`s,and I don`t want anything they might get from the ground to interfere with this NATURAL prosess....Alamo


Yeah, I get your point. With me, I use YB races as training and the more they stay out and mature the better. Of course, I have flyaways and losses but it seems less than some other fanciers here. From tosses, twice young birds came back 2-3 weeks late and won the next 200 Open straightaway when in good health and feather. There are no fields nearby so they can only sit on the roof, the open terrace in front of the loft or fly in. I've not had to treat for canker in years, Just the vaccines, deworming, cocci and respiratory if needed, etc and natural supplements. I race yearlings but mostly older birds seriously and they trap like lightning. I'm in the process of changing lofts to eliminate the cocci threat with slats and wire netting floor and less wire partitions.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

I agree with conditionfrk about allergies, etc.
What world we live in!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

ConditionFreak.......<<<<<< Your handle here could be mine !!! It`s conditioning the YB`s in the HEAD,to race,land and trap....If I make them hit the ground,I am wasting my money....I also beleive that I GIVE THEM ALL THE STUFF they need IN THE LOFT !!! They do not need to pick in the ground....Old birds are also breeding Yb`s,so I give they a little slack....
I can only go by my record of not LOSING yb`s in training and RACING.....No,I don`t win alot of combine races..But I hardly ever NOT get pigeons home in racetime,no matter what the weather,or how many miles the race is.....Isn`t that important ?? To get them home ?? After a few years,I have a pretty good group of Old Birds,who will get clocked in even if the weather is so bad,most other lofts do not get any...That`s what an OB loft mgr wants..To get clocked racing pigeons,even if mother nature says no way !!Alamo

PS: I lost 5 yb`s in 2010......I lost 8 yb`s in 2009.....Lost 6 yb`s in 2008.....Lost 5 yb`s in 2007......That`s a total of 24 in 4 years....Average 6 per year...I usally raise 24/25 for myself to fly...So I lose an average of 25%.....I know alot of guys here who lose 75% of their YB`s almost every year....


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I certainly agree that getting them home is more important than winning.

Many do not and thnk that winning is everything.

I would rather get every bird I send, home, than win and get 30% of the birds I sent home.

Probably didn't explain it well, but winning is not everything to me. My birds are being okay, is more important than winning.

The wins will come often enough I think.

Heck, even a blind albino skunk finds a grub once in awhile.  (I just had to get that skunk reference in there)


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

CONDITIONFREAK...Do you fly with PENN/OHIO ?? I fly two races with/against them in OB`s...Federation 500 & 600 milers....They call them 400 & 500 milers,because they are short enders in the races.....Alamo


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

My Mentor told me, "If you do not want to lose birds then do not have pigeons." Of course this site taught me, "If you name it you'll lose it." So far the one original bird I have left is named "Shelby" after my daughter who named it of course. Now all of Shelby the bird's mates were lost because they were named after Shelby the daughter's boyfriend at the time. 

Tony
PS No I did not do anything to the bird's mates, the daughter's boyfriends is a different story.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

"Breed for color, breed for speed, breed for endurance; but you cannot breed for more than one thing without losing on the other." Another saying I picked up here.

Tony


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Alamo: I fly with the Covington, Ky. racing pigeon club. But we are in the Cincinnati racing pigeon combine. I actually live in Ohio and fly with the Kentucky club.

Guess that is why I am on the long end. 

Wanna hear something funny? The short end person, and me (the long end person), now have a 5 mile difference in our course (we have changed our course every year for the last three years). He is in Kentucky and I am in Ohio. When I drive to his home from mine, it is all freeway ( 60 and 65 miles an hour speed limits), and it takes me 75 minutes from my house to his. Yet there is only a five mile difference between us (for race purposes).

Talk about angles!

I have been in this club combine for three years now, and have never flown the same course twice. Now we are changing the course AND changing to flying old and young birds together, starting in mid July.

Tough to get my act together always changing up. But we are all changing, so I guess it is even-steven.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Conditionfreak.....I have read about flying OB`s and YB`s together.....I hope it works out,because of $$$$$$,this might happen to alot of combines to save $$$$$.....The one problem I see here with my combine is,we do not have a large enough trailer for both OB and YB`s crates....So if a combine has to do it,they will have to spend alot of money to get a large enough truck/trailer to haul all these birds....I know new trucks that are self contained to hold race birds are very expensive....This will make alot of clubs/combines think hard on combining all racing...They do it in Europe,but they have alot more members to shell out $$$$ for what they need....Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Our trailer will most likely be big enough. But it will be close. I suspect that if it isn't, we will simply drop the numbers of birds a person can send to each race. We already are getting rid of our "B" race in young birds I believe. We used to race an "A" race and a "B" race on the same day in young birds. Now it willjust be one old bird race and one young bird race, on the same day or maybe old birds the next day on the really long races.

I really think the molt is going to be a problem. I know it can be controlled with either a light or dark system. But few of us use those and few will use those. I don't even have electriciy in my flying lofts. Just in my breeding loft.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Easy Does It!!*

*The SECRET OF GETTING AHEAD IS GETTING STARTED!

Half MEASURES AVAIL US NOTHING!

K.I.S.S. Keep It SIMPLE STUPID!!!!!*


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Well an old saying I have found not yet mentioned is "all races are won and lost in the nest box".


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> Well an old saying I have found not yet mentioned is "all races are won and lost in the nest box".


What does that mean?


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RodSD......That means your race winners are bred,and not made,so to speak.....You can`t make a dud a winner....It has to be bred a winner first.....Alamo


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

RodSD said:


> What does that mean?


 It means it comes from the parantage and everything else should just fall into place .


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Big T said:


> "Breed for color, breed for speed, breed for endurance; but you cannot breed for more than one thing without losing on the other." Another saying I picked up here.
> 
> Tony


It is very possible to breed for more than one thing at once, or else we couldn't have breeds with so many different ornaments. It's just the more to try to accomplish at once, the more complicated and the longer it takes to get anything stabilized. It's easier to work with one thing at a time. But you still have to keep an eye on what you've already gotten down.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

jpsnapdy said:


> Most asian lofts do use 1/2 x 1/2 wire, dowels are not available and way too expensive to make and also unsafe due to predators both animal and human. If wire were to be the cause, ALL feathers would be damaged, not just the light coloured ones, right? My birds never have "bad", damaged feathering nor fret marks either.
> 
> But this got me thinking, do you give your birds open loft?
> 
> ...


Did I say frayed feathers were bad birds?  If I did, I didn't mean to. I probably meant their feather quality was bad, either temporarily or constant (some birds just always have weak feathers, but even the best feathers can only take so much abuse, so they can get frayed as well). So it is either genetic's fault or our fault for putting so much stress on the feathers. And sometimes it is both.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Big T said:


> My Mentor told me, "If you do not want to lose birds then do not have pigeons." Of course this site taught me, "If you name it you'll lose it." So far the one original bird I have left is named "Shelby" after my daughter who named it of course. Now all of Shelby the bird's mates were lost because they were named after Shelby the daughter's boyfriend at the time.
> 
> Tony
> PS No I did not do anything to the bird's mates, the daughter's boyfriends is a different story.


I agree  I try really hard not to name anything that isn't in the breeding loft or will be stocked at some point. Right now the only flying birds I have with names are John Deere (bandless) and Blue Belle (semi-stocked. She's in the OB loft right now but I'm not going to toss/race her anymore).


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for the info about the nest box saying. It sounded so desperate though that it seems we rely on luck. I thought we bred/made birds through selection. But I do agree that dud birds can't win. They might not even make it back from their first training toss.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

RodSD said:


> Thanks for the info about the nest box saying. It sounded so desperate though that it seems we rely on luck. I thought we bred/made birds through selection. But I do agree that dud birds can't win. They might not even make it back from their first training toss.


The apple does not fall far from the tree. All things considered, if the young are "duds" you need to get rid of the pair that produced them to make room for another pair that can get er done.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Did I say frayed feathers were bad birds?  If I did, I didn't mean to. I probably meant their feather quality was bad, either temporarily or constant (some birds just always have weak feathers, but even the best feathers can only take so much abuse, so they can get frayed as well). So it is either genetic's fault or our fault for putting so much stress on the feathers. And sometimes it is both.


OK, that's probably what you meant.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Here is something I was told once.

If you are on the shot end let you birds set in the basket to get their bearings before training releases. This way they are more likely to break early and head home. If you are on the long end pull into your release point and open the baskets. This will cause them to circle more at release and hold back the short end birds giving you an advantage.

My thought was, what about the short end birds they don't hold back?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ace in the hole said:


> Here is something I was told once.
> 
> If you are on the shot end let you birds set in the basket to get their bearings before training releases. This way they are more likely to break early and head home. If you are on the long end pull into your release point and open the baskets. This will cause them to circle more at release and hold back the short end birds giving you an advantage.
> 
> My thought was, what about the short end birds they don't hold back?


I believe all birds deserve a chance to get their bearings first. That would suck when the smart birds go off and leave the circling flock behind


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Ace....I can`t beleive that guys would train like that....The birds when released,if they are well trained,and the weather is good,should not circle....Did you watch The Mike Tyson show ??....The coach and others training were HAPPY when the birds made NO circles around the release point....My dad and I trained his birds ONE at a time....If any bird made a circle,he did not get dinner that day....After a couple of days,you betta beleive not one bird would make not even one circle...I even made my dad face the basket the wrong way facing WEST.....The bird would make a 180 degree turn,and go straight home....This my dad said is how you win races....I`m not saying single up your birds...But whether you train 10 at a time,or 15 at a time etc...They should not make any circles,unless the weather is overcast or foggy etc......Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

On the releases I have witnessed, both training tosses and races, I have never observed the flock not circle. I have heard of others say their birds just went straight away towards home, but I have never witnessed it. Even after letting the birds sit in the baskets/trailer for awhile.

It would be advantageous though, if they did.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> On the releases I have witnessed, both training tosses and races, I have never observed the flock not circle. I have heard of others say their birds just went straight away towards home, but I have never witnessed it. Even after letting the birds sit in the baskets/trailer for awhile.
> 
> It would be advantageous though, if they did.


If you release from the same spot a lot they will. New spots and they circle to get their bearings.

Tony


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I heard a few good sayings from the Old Timers in my Club. 
I asked one if he believed in "Eye Sign Theory"? 
He quickly answered: "Nope I believe in Tail Sign Theory" 
I asked what was that? 
He said "I believe it when I see the tail going through the trap!" 
We all laughed cause thats a good one to remember.

On another occasion I asked another "Seasoned Veteran" if he had any tips and he replied: "Well this one comes to mind...
*"You never loose your race winners" *
I said your pulling my leg because pigeons are lost all the time...and he smiled and said "True but not the *Winner of the Race*" 

Here is another one I recently was reminded of "*Beware of Wolves in Sheep's Clothing*" I heard this one in nursery school and realized it applies when dealing with pigeon peddlers. 
They can claim any pedigree they want and who can say otherwise? They can tell you they are selling you $500 pigeons for $25 and your supposed to believe it. If the birds don't handle like the "Primo" birds they are supposed to be down from well your just not savvy enough to know better. If they get lost it will be some how be your training methods and thus your fault. If they birds breed duds it will be how you paired up the breeders...Its a lucrative scheme that is closer then many realize. 

Last one I can think of is "Don't pair 2 yellow eye pigeons together" my mentor subscribes to this theory he said he ignored it when he started out and he lost all the Yb's from those pairings. 
He said he pairs up Red/Red or Red/Orange or Orange/Orange or Red/Yellow or Orange / Yellow but never Yellow to Yellow. 

(I kinda believe this because I breed 2 commies/ferals that had yellow eyes and they would route for 35-45 minutes and would trap on the whistle. One was lost on a 3 mile training toss and the other on a 7 mile toss a week later.)


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

JaxRacingLofts said:


> Last one I can think of is "Don't pair 2 yellow eye pigeons together" my mentor subscribes to this theory he said he ignored it when he started out and he lost all the Yb's from those pairings.
> He said he pairs up Red/Red or Red/Orange or Orange/Orange or Red/Yellow or Orange / Yellow but never Yellow to Yellow.
> 
> (I kinda believe this because I breed 2 commies/ferals that had yellow eyes and they would route for 35-45 minutes and would trap on the whistle. One was lost on a 3 mile training toss and the other on a 7 mile toss a week later.)


Are you certain that was from the yellow eyes and not because they were feral/commies, as you called them.

I was told something similar, but I was told not to pair pearl to pearl, and others told me the only thing I needed to worry about with the eyes, is that they have 2 and can see out of them.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Thunderbird Racing said:


> Are you certain that was from the yellow eyes and not because they were feral/commies, as you called them.
> 
> I was told something similar, but I was told not to pair pearl to pearl, and others told me the only thing I needed to worry about with the eyes, is that they have 2 and can see out of them.


No mention of green eyes????


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have heard that one SHOULD breed pearl eyes to pearl eyes, to breed winners. Ha Ha

Pigeon racers. Ha Ha


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> On the releases I have witnessed, both training tosses and races, I have never observed the flock not circle. I have heard of others say their birds just went straight away towards home, but I have never witnessed it. Even after letting the birds sit in the baskets/trailer for awhile.
> 
> It would be advantageous though, if they did.


I've had teams that wouldn't circle. My team in 1999 was like that I'd let them up from my spot. I can see them out about a mile and a half and they'd go over the same big pine tree out in the distance every time. They would do it in a pack or single tossed. And last year my team would do it somtimes. My dad likes it when they hang around the release point but I don't I know that if my birds are leaving right away and not circling they really want to get home and they are gonna do it on race day. On the other hand if they do circle they will do that as well on race day. From what I've seen when my birds don't circle at all from the training tosses I normally get a bird if not more out in front in the club. And I'm usually near the top of the combine. My old birds right now circle for 5 mins b4 they leave I've gotta work them more to get them where I want them. So I'm off to take them on a toss I'm hoping to get between 10 and 15 25 mile tosses between now an next Sat when I have to ship the 250.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I have liberated quite a few races here in WVa......Whether there was 300 birds in the race,or 1200+ (WTCM)....They don`t circle......They go straight and out of sight in no time at all....All these races were big $$$ young bird races....Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have heard a lot of flyers talk about how their birds take straight off towards home when liberated. Our driver/liberator for our races, has also said the same thing about our birds on many race days. It seems to have something to do with the weather conditions, in his opinion. On hazy days, he says they circle and on clear days they go straight out. I would assume most early morning releases are somewhat hazy. I don't know because I don't get up that early. 

On a related subject. I am tired of rain. Sick and tired of it. I know that later in the summer I will be wanting rain. But right now I am fed up with it. The forecast for the next WEEK is rain and more rain.

The last few days here have been tornado warnings, thunderstorms and cleaning up the limbs, garbage cans and shingles from my roof that are on the ground. (which have to be repaired asap). This is after what seems like a month of every other day rain and sometimes snow.

Yep. I'm sick and tired of all of this rain. Mud everywhere, everyday.

Did I mention I'm sick and tired of all of this rain?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

*The genetic approach to things.*

Still do not understand why people say "never pair yellow eyes to yellow eyes", or "never pair two pearl eyes together". It is just an eye color. There are only two eye colors - orange and pearl. Orange can vary in color from bright yellow to deep red-orange to a greenish color. Pearl can vary from white to almost all red to a mixture of the two, depending on the amount of blood vessels in the iris. White birds and pied birds can give you bull eyes and cracked/split eyes. Whether the whole eye is shadowed to give a black-eyed appearance, or partially shadowed to give a split/cracked eye or greenish yellow appearance, it is still either orange or pearl underneath. Just like recessive white birds are genetically either ash-red, blue, or brown underneath.


So.


"He said he pairs up Red/Red or Red/Orange or Orange/Orange or Red/Yellow or Orange / Yellow but never Yellow to Yellow."

What you have here are: Pearl/Pearl, Pearl/Orange, Orange/Orange, Pearl/Orange, and Orange/Orange. "Yellow to yellow" is simply Orange to Orange. It doesn't matter what variation it is, it's still the same gene. 
So it isn't the eye color that matters, it's personal preference and overall quality of the bird.


Also, whether a pearl-eyed bird came from a Pearl/Orange mating or a Pearl/Pearl mating, to be a pearl eye, it must have two copies of the gene because it is recessive. So regardless of the mating, the pearl eye is still genetically the same.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> I have heard that one SHOULD breed pearl eyes to pearl eyes, to breed winners. Ha Ha
> 
> Pigeon racers. Ha Ha


I have no idea which is right or wrong, this is my first year breeding.

It just goes to prove that 100 pigeon people will answer the same question in many different ways.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

If you take your birds to the training spot bafore daylight and let them watch the sun come up-let them sit 20-30 minutes--they will know which way is home - and not circle-
It may take a time or TWO but they will learn.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

WOW--I can't believe the post showed up.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I have heard a lot of flyers talk about how their birds take straight off towards home when liberated. Our driver/liberator for our races, has also said the same thing about our birds on many race days. It seems to have something to do with the weather conditions, in his opinion. On hazy days, he says they circle and on clear days they go straight out. I would assume most early morning releases are somewhat hazy. I don't know because I don't get up that early.
> 
> On a related subject. I am tired of rain. Sick and tired of it. I know that later in the summer I will be wanting rain. But right now I am fed up with it. The forecast for the next WEEK is rain and more rain.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. If I couldn't see as far as I normally could, I would probably circle around more too. If for no other reason than to wait out the fog. I think it also depends on the motivation, intelligence, and experience. In young birds especially, they will go in circles or wavy patterns playing follow-the-leader. One bird wants to go this way, they follow. Then another says "No, we'll go this way" so they turn and follow him.  Eventually someone says "Screw this, I'm going home" and leaves the others behind. Whether the rest follow or not, I don't think that bird even cares. Birds who have no or less motivation, I would think, would take longer to decide where to go and head out. They are probably having fun and have no responsibility at home. My old birds hardly circle at all before someone bee-lines and the others realize what is going on. A lot of times we have released our birds (YBs and OBs) and they didn't circle at all. We were surprised and very impressed. Surely that is a good sign! Well, a few miles down the highway, we find them circling or flying this way and that (much like those huge migrating flocks of blackbirds). So much for flying straight home! So even if your birds fly straight towards home, right out of sight...they aren't very likely to continue in a _straight_ line. I've seen some of those GPS maps from the birds being tracked and they would often make random loops and go farther out of the way than they needed to.


On the rain subject, this is the first weekend in a while that we haven't had rain. Seems like every weekend was a tornado or severe thunderstorms in general. I was getting pretty tired of it! Yesterday was kind of cloudy at first as it did rain friday...BUT it warmed up and now it feels like summer  The humidity is the worst part in my opinion. I hate going out into the loft to look at the birds and sweat like a pig just standing there. Hopefully this sun will dry it out some!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have seen those maps of tacked homing flocks also, and they indeed take "wavy" routes home. Never straight shots from long distances.

I have read that homing pigeons "reassess" their path every few minutes and do not just start off in the right direction and it is all gravy from there. According to tacking maps (using GPS devices attached to birds), even for a forty mile flight, they go in a somewhat zig-zag pattern. There can be long portions that are in a straight line, but there will always be some twists and turns before they get home. That is even over flat land.

Here is a question: If the birds start out straight away from the release, but start out in the wrong direct. How long or far before they figure it out and turn around?

There are stories of flocks being let out to close to home and in their exhurbance or speed, fly right past near their home loft and end up hundreds of miles away. Dumb birds, or followers of a single dumb bird?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I have seen those maps of tacked homing flocks also, and they indeed take "wavy" routes home. Never straight shots from long distances.
> 
> I have read that homing pigeons "reassess" their path every few minutes and do not just start off in the right direction and it is all gravy from there. According to tacking maps (using GPS devices attached to birds), even for a forty mile flight, they go in a somewhat zig-zag pattern. There can be long portions that are in a straight line, but there will always be some twists and turns before they get home. That is even over flat land.
> 
> ...


That is a good question. I would hope very quickly  I have seen that happen at my own loft. Released them only a few miles, got home, and saw them....flying...very fast...right past the loft and out of sight in the opposite direction  I believe we lost a few birds. They did come back later on. I'm thinking a hawk may have been chasing them. Either that or there was at least one dumb bird who thought he knew what he was doing


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Scientists have found that if you leave the birds in the basket and let them observe the place for awhile like we usually do they will make few circles or none at all if they have been tossed at that place before.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I have seen those maps of tacked homing flocks also, and they indeed take "wavy" routes home. Never straight shots from long distances.
> 
> I have read that homing pigeons "reassess" their path every few minutes and do not just start off in the right direction and it is all gravy from there. According to tacking maps (using GPS devices attached to birds), even for a forty mile flight, they go in a somewhat zig-zag pattern. There can be long portions that are in a straight line, but there will always be some twists and turns before they get home. That is even over flat land.
> 
> ...


I think a science experiment was already done on that one as well. I forgot the exact distance, however. It also shows that a lost bird will do the same. So when a bird suddenly flew straight it either has a really good homing ability or a lost one!


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> On a related subject. I am tired of rain. Sick and tired of it. I know that later in the summer I will be wanting rain. But right now I am fed up with it. The forecast for the next WEEK is rain and more rain.
> 
> The last few days here have been tornado warnings, thunderstorms and cleaning up the limbs, garbage cans and shingles from my roof that are on the ground. (which have to be repaired asap). This is after what seems like a month of every other day rain and sometimes snow.
> 
> ...


I sympathise. I love rain after a hot spell, but hate it when it's pigeon training time.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I used to say this when I was a kid: " Rain rain go away,
Come again another day."

That old saying is definitely will *not* become true! So I tried a Native American dance to stop rain or was it to start rain?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Still do not understand why people say "never pair yellow eyes to yellow eyes", or "never pair two pearl eyes together". It is just an eye color. There are only two eye colors - orange and pearl. Orange can vary in color from bright yellow to deep red-orange to a greenish color. Pearl can vary from white to almost all red to a mixture of the two, depending on the amount of blood vessels in the iris. White birds and pied birds can give you bull eyes and cracked/split eyes. Whether the whole eye is shadowed to give a black-eyed appearance, or partially shadowed to give a split/cracked eye or greenish yellow appearance, it is still either orange or pearl underneath. Just like recessive white birds are genetically either ash-red, blue, or brown underneath.
> 
> 
> So.
> ...


The best way to find out would be to try it out, yellow to yellow or pearl to pearl and see what happens. Here is a simple example of the eye-sign theory. Why not find out if it holds water? Supposedly, when you keep doing this, you get pale washed out colour eyes, but what of the racing qualities? do they follow the same pattern?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

RodSD said:


> I used to say this when I was a kid: " Rain rain go away,
> Come again another day."
> 
> That old saying is definitely will *not* become true! So I tried a Native American dance to stop rain or was it to start rain?


Please, please, stop dancing. There is no Native American dance to stop rain. Only those that make it rain.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

CF, we now know who to target for causing this mess.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I had my old birds out today. It was raining slightly but they haven't been out in awhile, so I did. They started taking baths in the puddles on the ground, so I gave them a bath pan of water on top of a picnic table, which is where they ususally take their baths.

I stayed out there to "babysit" and watch out for hawks. I observed a sparrow land on the loft landing board and enter into the loft trap. I thought that it was going in for food, as I also though that this isn't good as it could spread disease or parasites. I watched as it exited carrying a white feather and flew away. It came back several times, and each time it left with a feather.

Obviously using my birds feathers to "feather its nest". I thought it was kind of cool.

Now it's raining harder.


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

conditionfreak said:


> Please, please, stop dancing. There is no Native American dance to stop rain. Only those that make it rain.


Lol yes please stop, your dancing has given us enough water


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

swagg said:


> Lol yes please stop, your dancing has given us enough water


Ok. Ok! I'll stop dancing.
I think it is the ripple/butterfly effect!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

RodSD said:


> Ok. Ok! I'll stop dancing.
> I think it is the ripple/butterfly effect!


If you aren't careful we may ripple and butterfly right on over to give you some of this mud. Can't even walk out to the loft without the sod breaking apart. And we are supposed to get more over the next several days. Maybe if I tell the Mrs who is responsible she will quit yelling at me for the gloomy weather! 

BAH!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, bring some rain back. Here we are rationed for water. We can only water our garden 3 times a week and only between 6 pm to 10 am. I think we are still in drought and because San Diego buys water from Los Angeles which in turn buys it from Colorado, they keep on increasing the water rate fee. So basically we are paying more for less.

The only advantage of not raining often is that we can fly our birds most of the time.
I've heard that more rain is going to your place. Ouch!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Up here near the "inland seas" our problem is what to do with all the water. Given the options I guess I am in the desired position. 

Something like another 12" from the Ohio valley east to the coast.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I have read alot on mating pigeons by eye color....There seems to be a thought that when mating to pearl eyes to each other,what "COULD" happen is,you get a what they call a washed out eye...I will put it this way...If you put a brand new pair of "BLUE" jeans in the washer,and you poured in alot of bleach,you will still have blue jeans,but they will get washed out of the original color....As far as yellow to yellow,I have never had a problem with this being mated to each other...The one thing I do beleive is that,there are MORE long distance winners in races with Yellow eyes,and MORE short distance winners are Pearl eyed birds....All my long distance birds that do well,especially in bad weather are yellow eyed birds,and the oppisite in shorter fast races (pearl eyes)...This is my loft,and I don`t really know if this is the same in your lofts....Alamo


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

jpsnapdy said:


> The best way to find out would be to try it out, yellow to yellow or pearl to pearl and see what happens. Here is a simple example of the eye-sign theory. Why not find out if it holds water? Supposedly, when you keep doing this, you get pale washed out colour eyes, but what of the racing qualities? do they follow the same pattern?


No, fish eyes take a lot of selective breeding to make. The majority of the pearl eyed homers I've seen have a lot of blood vessels showing so I wouldn't be worried about them randomly disappearing. 

But even if it DOES happen somehow, if you look at Houben's birds, look how washed out some of their eyes are. But he is still quite successful. I'm assuming if his breeders were no good, he would dispose of them quickly.
http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/breeders/be-07-6076458
http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/breeders/be-07-6076226
http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/breeders/be-05-6166312
http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/breeders/be-03-6266056
http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/breeders/be-03-6266238
http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/hens/be-06-6267274


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

RodSD said:


> Yeah, bring some rain back. Here we are rationed for water. We can only water our garden 3 times a week and only between 6 pm to 10 am. I think we are still in drought and because San Diego buys water from Los Angeles which in turn buys it from Colorado, they keep on increasing the water rate fee. So basically we are paying more for less.
> 
> The only advantage of not raining often is that we can fly our birds most of the time.
> I've heard that more rain is going to your place. Ouch!


I can maybe help us both out. I will send you all the water you want, for just 1 cent a gallon. But you pay the shipping and handling charges.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I'll better that. I won't even CHARGE the 1¢ per gallon as long as you get it out of my basement!

BTW according to the neighbors this is the first time in 90 years (that is how long the oldest person has been living on our street and she is 99) that there has been standing water in the basements of these old houses.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I was debating on sharing this one but I guess you guys might think its funny..all apologies in advance if anyone finds it offensive.

Last Saturday morning, I was scraping the perches in my yb loft and my girlfriend asked if she could help.
I said "Sure clean out underneath the Aviary." 
As she was walking away she yelled to me "What do I use?" 
I said "Use the Hoe" 
I heard her say "What?" and I said even louder...
"Use the Hoe!" 
10 seconds later I heard in a clear voice "No! Your The Ho!" 
I turned around and looked and I saw her face over the landing board through the trap and I said "What?"
and she said with a smile "Ho"
I was like Duh!!! she got me


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha

Yoose the hoe, and the goat.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> Ha Ha
> 
> Yoose the hoe, and the goat.


Yeah she got me

Here are a few more I've thought of:

*Never Say Never*

I'm sure everyone knows by now I'm not impressed with ace in the hole yb kits. Well I publicly said I would never breed from the birds cause I made that mistake before with some ferals I was told to cull and the people were right ferals are not racers and I'm not trying to make the same mistake twice.

So just the week I see my 2002 HVR cock (The Distinguished Gentleman)treading one of those 2010 hens. How is that for irony? I tried to pair this cock with 2 very nice houban hens and a sweet handling Van Reet and he wouldn't do nothing..I make this "absolute" claim I would toss the eggs and he pairs up with this hen? 

This cock has breed multiple diploma winners so if this hen is only 1/4 as good as people say then some guys in Louisiana are going to have some decent ybs to race. 

This one falls in into the silly category:
*My culls are better then other lofts best birds*"

A bold claim made by a 50 yr veteran in the sport...the silly part is he usually on the bottom of the race sheet. Last ybs season the best I saw him place was 3rd on a 200 mile.

Not sure if this one was covered but I was told *"Never Name a Bird"* that is going to race.

Not only is it supposed to be bad luck but I was told you could release 200 birds at the same time and a cooper will find your favorite out of the flock. This one I'm not sure if its "stupidstition" or just seems to be a coincidence?


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

JaxRacingLofts said:


> ...I was told you could release 200 birds at the same time and a cooper will find your favorite out of the flock.


I'll believe that!


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> No, fish eyes take a lot of selective breeding to make. The majority of the pearl eyed homers I've seen have a lot of blood vessels showing so I wouldn't be worried about them randomly disappearing.
> 
> But even if it DOES happen somehow, if you look at Houben's birds, look how washed out some of their eyes are. But he is still quite successful. I'm assuming if his breeders were no good, he would dispose of them quickly.
> http://houbenpigeons.com/?q=pigeons/breeders/be-07-6076458
> ...


Yeah, the top layer of tubing seems to be getting pale, but the circle of correlation is still quite strong, so there are no mistakes made in the pairings. It's probably because his breeders are so close to perfect (winners at every generation) that he can afford to let the colour fade a bit. Now's the time to watch for that new blood they should be introducing according to me. It would beinteresting to know the percentages of successful young from each mating at each generation, what can race, what can breed and those that don't work.
Not a keeper of fish eyes, so I can't tell.


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