# Performance to show



## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

What's with all these performance based pigeons turning into show birds?
I don't understand it really.
This is a question and a rant.
So many breeds are now show only it is a true shame IMO.
I have one random mismarked magpie bird fly's pretty well. Would love to see a kit of those up.

My main point.
These boys over in NY city show tipplers, and not the 'show tippler' but regular flying tipplers they show.. I do not get this? Why not use the show tippler or another show variety. They (ATU) also show 'capped' tipplers which TMK is only available in NY city and hopefully stays that way.

I called the Dixie tippler club down in florida to get some birds. I was told that he doesn't ship birds out as someone once told him the birds died after receiving them and he refunded his money only to find him showing his tipplers against him..
Messed up, but made me think about why anyone would show a flying breed. I am happy he declined to send me birds as I would like to keep flying stock. Though I do think I have one or two of these show style tipplers.

It looks like the tippler is just one more breed to bit the bullet and get drawn into the show ring.
Well at least my brother and I have enough blood to keep the breed flying for a little bit. =]

Now I will admit we are breeding our birds for color, but they must fly.
Here in Phoenix tipplers don't tip like they do elsewhere. The weather is not good for them. So I do like nice looking birds but would never dream or showing them or competing against other for looks. Honestly it's like peoples lives aren't satisfied elsewhere that they need to brag about the best looking bird. Almost as if they did something super natural... All you did was buy two birds and breed them... Big deal.

Another thing is it brings bad things... Talking with my bro yesterday about this. These guys usually 'neck' birds, most likely because they don't want 'bad' birds to go out to other with their name attached to it.
Even though they could easily sell them or give them to some young buck looking to fly some birds.

It is sick.


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## fantailgyrl (Jul 10, 2010)

*agreed*

imo i think performance birds should be breed for performance first ..than color second .....but each to his own .....but nothing like makin your birds work a little bit for there food (JK)


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I agree entirely. The only reason why we are working with color is because Tipplers for instance can fly up to 22 hours straight. Here in phoenix those birds wouldn't do half of that so there is really no point in us flying them down here to begin with.
But we enjoy watching them fly and for us are a great bird. If not tipplers I would be flying Flights or something similar.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

AZ, I'm with you. Alot of birds have lost their abilities due to the show aspect. The WOE's that actually fly for more than 10 mins and actually tumble here in the states are extremely rare now.

With that said, everyone has the right to do what they want, I just don't want to see the performance side of any breed go to waste for the sake of show. We don't have enough pigeon people as it stands so I'm all for more pigeon folks but I do wish the the shows don't overtake the performance one day....


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Yep yep. It is a shame about the Westys.
In this thread here it looks like she has one hen that is more of the show style.
(the second pic) Smaller size and muffs.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I do not see a reason there can not be two types of any breed..a show type and a performance type..there already is. 

so that leaves why people like to show and or breed for shows.. I don't know...lol..

but think it may have something to do with a goal, trying to breed for a standard that is kept by a certain club and identify with it visually. I have been thinking about this show thing when it comes to canines too... it seems so ridiculouse oneday what we have done with a canine..but then again.. I love the breeds... I dunno.


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## fantailgyrl (Jul 10, 2010)

*@spirit*

i agree theres nothing wrong with showing birds at all but when it comes to sacraficing the performance something it was breed to do are is in its blood its just kinda sad to see it go ...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

fantailgyrl said:


> i agree theres nothing wrong with showing birds at all but when it comes to sacraficing the performance something it was breed to do are is in its blood its just kinda sad to see it go ...


not if both types existe... my homers are just fine even though there are show homers in the world..


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

fantailgyrl said:


> i agree theres nothing wrong with showing birds at all but when it comes to sacraficing the performance something it was breed to do are is in its blood its just kinda sad to see it go ...


That's what I'm saying.

Take a look at West of England Tumblers. Most of them here in the US can no longer fly for more than 10 mins and don't even tumble. It's not just the WOEs, you have Oriental Rollers and Egytian Swifts along with Catalonian Tumblers that are all flying breeds and it's hard to find the flying type these days.

It is best to keep both separate and as I stated before, I'm a fan of both as it builds up the pigeon fancy but still sad to see when a pigeon loses what it was first meant to do all for the sake of show.


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## Parlor Fan (Jan 20, 2009)

It is pretty sad how things seem to change.Just to try it out I showed some of my Oriental Rollers a few years ago.More so to promote them then to show.Mine hardly got a second look compared the the big necked,stocky show OR's.I'm with you on the colors but if they don't do it in the air they'll find new homes.
I remember reading somewhere that someone tried getting a standard setup to start showing Parlor Rollers.
My standard really has nothing to do with what they'd look like in a showpen,THAT'S for sure !!!


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> not if both types existe... my homers are just fine even though there are show homers in the world..


The problem is there are many "extinct" flying breeds that have just gone all show. To have a breed that had one goal and that was just for flying and then do a 180 and just show it is wrong. A lot of times both types don't exist. Can't find good WoEs or English carriers or magpies and so on.

Tipplers are going extinct now too. Show tipplers are great I like the bronze but it's fully recognized the English flying tipplers and English show tipplers are two very distinct breeds. They bred birds into flying tipplers and made a new breed called show tipplers. 

Now they have just taken the flying tippler and are showing it. So essentially you will have 3 breeds of tipplers... English flying tipplers, English flying show tipplers, English show tipplers. 2 clubs in the USA only show there flying tipplers and don't care at all about flying

You can have the best of both, people just don't care or are lazy. I want good flying and good looking birds. It's real simple fly all your birds and do more selection. James Turner seems to understand that with his rollers.


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## franciscreek (Oct 21, 2010)

I think you can have both, the performance and the type. I know Its not easy with some breeds, but it can be done with others. We have portuguese tumblers that perfom well and have good type. My best performing bird is also a very good show bird.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> The problem is there are many "extinct" flying breeds that have just gone all show. To have a breed that had one goal and that was just for flying and then do a 180 and just show it is wrong. A lot of times both types don't exist. Can't find good WoEs or English carriers or magpies and so on.
> 
> Tipplers are going extinct now too. Show tipplers are great I like the bronze but it's fully recognized the English flying tipplers and English show tipplers are two very distinct breeds. They bred birds into flying tipplers and made a new breed called show tipplers.
> 
> ...


James Turner is one of the select few who has been able to breed for color while still keeping the performance top notch. We all can't be James lol.

With that said, James doesn't show birds either and if he did, his flying rollers wouldn't win against show rollers. These show rollers look nothing like flying rollers anymore.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I understand, I wouldn't show birds either. I'd rather take my birds in whatever direction I feel is right rather than what a standard dictates.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm sure the shows have different categories for the different birds. I know they have flown homer and unflown homer categories. I don't understand how showing birds makes them less of a performer, doesn't that have to do with the breeding. If you breed the good birds together and show them how does that make them less of a bird. When I had my homers I showed them and as far as I know they were still the same homers I started with 3 years earlier.They still fly.


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## franciscreek (Oct 21, 2010)

there are classes for show rollers, performing rollers and a few other types. Just like the homers, at the last show we went to it was a performing homer/racing homer that was in the running for best in show. The ower said he was a top race bird. He was beautiful, he felt amazing in hand.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

The problem isn't just showing performance birds it is showing them and not flying them. I think it would be easier to make a list of pigeons only bred for shows then performance birds turned show.

My point is many breed no longer fly that use to, that I think is a shame.
That is what I like about quality flights. Show color, but decent flying as well.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

There will always be show birds and performance birds and every other type of bird. There not going to disappear. So what if some one wants to show his non show bird, thats there business. How do you know how many people in the world are flying there birds and how many are not, its a big world out there. Its really a non issue if you ask me.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't think you really understand.
Look at the West of England Tumbler for example.
This bird is now a very poor flyer if it does at all. In England they still fly these birds and they do not look like they do here.
Modena's are the breed that started the 'pigeon wars' they play in NY, only in Modena taly a long time ago. This bird is far from flying now.
There is probably a countless number of more breeds that fit that bill.

I don't see a point or understand why people show flying tipplers when they could be showing show tipplers.
These two breeds are easily distinguished. 
I suppose some of these showing flying tips did fly them however now they only show them so if that spreads and continues soon enough tipplers don't fly they show... And then we will be left with two show tippler breeds, unless they ended up being combined but I doubt that as show tips are only shown in bronze.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I do understand what your saying, and its not good for the pigeon world if any of them change or disappear. I just don't think you or anyone else can change what people do with there birds. As far as showing birds as long as there is a place for them in the show people will show them. In the dog world they show all breeds of dogs, working dogs hunting dogs, service dogs and they still do what there were breed to do. The beagle isn't going to stop being a hunting, dog just because some people show them.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> The beagle isn't going to stop being a hunting, dog just because some people show them.


People are able to show flying breeds. I think the point was it was unfortunate because that is the start of a flying breed dying. If you take the statement you said above and replaced a couple words your see your wrong

The *english carrier* isn't going to stop being a *flying*,*pigeon* just because some people show them.

But you see that's exactly the case. They start showing and then somewhere down the line you come up with a completely different pigeon. This obviously doesn't happen in a day or a year. Flying interested completely gets dropped. Standards change they mix breeds and then the magpie, carrier, westy, etc loses what it was. 

Flying breed can get changed to show breeds. The clear start of this would be when the showing of the flying breed starts.

EDIT: here is an article on working dogs being ruined by the show aspect

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I do understand what your saying, and its not good for the pigeon world if any of them change or disappear. I just don't think you or anyone else can change what people do with there birds. As far as showing birds as long as there is a place for them in the show people will show them. In the dog world they show all breeds of dogs, working dogs hunting dogs, service dogs and they still do what there were breed to do. The beagle isn't going to stop being a hunting, dog just because some people show them.


You start by saying they should not change or disappear, they do change though.
Breeds that once flew do not have it in them anymore. They also change in appearance.
And these show dogs are no different go ask anyone that shows dogs you may find a couple that work them too but I doubt to many do.
Most dogs are now bred for companionship but very few started out that way.

You are right however in regards to changing what people do with the birds.
I never said I could or would even try. The entire point to this thread if you go and read my OP you will see, I had a question and a rant.
My question was why show flying tipplers when show tipplers already exist? And then the rant about why I think it is stupid and bad that is it. My opinion nothing more, take it or leave it.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Print Tippler said:


> People are able to show flying breeds. I think the point was it was unfortunate because that is the start of a flying breed dying. If you take the statement you said above and replaced a couple words your see your wrong
> 
> The *english carrier* isn't going to stop being a *flying*,*pigeon* just because some people show them.
> 
> ...


Like I said before, we need all the pigeon people possible to keep this hobby of pigeons alive. With that said, Print Tippler hit it on the head. Once people start showing these flying breeds, they start to become bred for show and and they eventually start losing the flying ability like alot of the breeds mentioned above like the Egyptian Swifts, West of England Tumblers, Show Rollers, Magpies, etc. 

Yes, alot of these breeds can still get "up" but most of them can no longer be considered "flying".


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

OK here is why they should not be called the same name if being bred for show and not performace. The beagle hound is a perfect example. If you have ever hunted rabbit with some of these amazing creatures you know all to well not all beagles are creatated equally. No hunting beagle has a chance of winning a show and your top notch show dogs have lost their hunting instinct. You find people in cities selling beagle pups for the pet trade mostly bred from show stock which are worthless to a homesteading farmer like myself. 
Homers are a good example why pigeons should not carry the same name. Racers are flown and not trained due to lack of a club by the person that gave me 4 squeakers last year. He has not mixed any other blood with them. He only selects breeders by feel and look. ARE THEY STILL RACERS? I call them homers as they will still home. Now show homers as I have been told will not fly much let alone beable to be road trained for homing ability. A newbie wants homers and does not know about "show" or 'racer" or plain homer. He may get some that were show birds and try road training them and give up on the hobby due to bad birds. If you change the breed change the name plain and simple. If they can not perform they loose their performance name.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think it is important to keep the two types seperate.. thought that was just common sense.. but there does need to be folks out there breeding these performing breeds just as they should be, like people who breed heritage chickens ..to keep the breeds going so they are not lost. I do not see anything wrong with showing... but when it comes to the performing breeds they have a seperate way to show off the breed as it was intended.


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

God bless the person who started this thread. Has anyone heard of a fancier going from showing pigeons to flying pigeons? I see the opposite happening around me many times. Hawks do a number on the flyers mentality. For example: If one had a good flyer and lost it to the hawks, one misses it alot and wishes to breed one with the same look to replace it, forgetting that it was also a good flyer. As we get old, we slow down: it takes more out of me trying to breed and fly pigeons than it does raising chickens for egg. I read about young folks trying to follow their parents or grandparents footsteps. If i was one of those folks, and saw fantails being raised by the grown ups I would try to do the same as I am doing now with the highflyers. Pigeons poop during flight: one would find this as a reason to vote against someone wanting to raise flying pigeons in his/ her neighborhood by saying pigeons belong in show cages not in the air. The only animals that I have no problem seeing in show colors or types are the fish in the aquarium. Even the plants give me that uneasy feeling: like seeing seedless watermellons and colorful cacti or purple roses which do not have that rose aroma. I have been saddened a few times by watching beautiful birds not being able to fly and come back in front of my eyes. When I get old and crippled, I would help the flying fanciers continue the sport instead of joining the show group. Afterall, the flyers show their birds in the air if you have the neck for it. Thank you Pigeon Talk.


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## Parlor Fan (Jan 20, 2009)

Nice post Hamlet !!!
I will also continue spinning myself into the ground watching my birds fly way overhead !!!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

AZCorbin said:


> What's with all these performance based pigeons turning into show birds?
> I don't understand it really.
> This is a question and a rant.
> So many breeds are now show only it is a true shame IMO.
> ...


*Hi AZ. Keep in mind that this is a hobby.Some people like to show birds others like to fly birds and still others like to show and fly their birds.I have done both and currently have a champ racer that is 17 years old that is a 5 time race winner, that I showed in the race bird class at a show he won there also, so he is race winner and a show winner. He has a forever home in my loft.* GEORGE


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

No one is denying that George. Simply pointed out that if you work tolds a show standard it will ultimately take away somewhat from what the bird was ment to do, which at times in the past have completely removed the flying ability from the breed.


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## Ken do_Mace (Mar 2, 2012)

well said Hamlet!!

We shall be forever looking at the sky and have a neck pains.


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