# genetic question



## DAK1 (Jan 24, 2010)

This one is for all of the ones that understand how genetics works.
I have a pure white male homer that is mated to a normal blue bar ex feral hen and their chicks are always brown & white. I don't understand why they wouldn't have a white or blue bar once in awhile.I hope I explained this well enough. Thanks all


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey, Firstly are the whites eyes black or atleast a dark colour all over? If so the gene producing your whites is called recessive white, as the name depicts it is a recessive trait so it will not show in any of the young unless the blue bar hen also carries the gene, If she does you would expect an average of 50% to be plain white. I am not sure how many you have bred but I would not imagine a feral hen to carry the gene, Although plain white birds are not uncommon in feral flocks where I am from as we do not have BOP in the area so I am not sure what the chances are but I would imagine they are slim.
If the white bird has coloured eyes it will be most likely an ash red grizzle (two doses of grizzle). This could explain the what you describe as brown and white children, They could possibly be ash red grizzles with only one dose of grizzle, which could look brown and white with a salt a pepper effect, I am guessing based on what you have described but there are so many variables that without pics it would be all guessing games.

Your white bird will carry a colour underneath either ash red if it is grizzle or any of the three base colours if it is recessive white, It could be true brown although unlikely, it could be blue with some sort of bronze producing brown looking birds, It could be dilute blue even underneath. Without seeing the babies once again its impossible to tell but I hope all these options help you to realise that your birds carry a lot more genetically than what you see, if the genes you are working with are recessive they do not appear in the first offspring in most cases.

As for the blue bar, Its base colour is blue and its base pattern is bar. It could also carry a few hidden genes that are contributing to the young, It all comes down to odds so there are some random things that pop up in a 1 in 4 ratio, Some combinations of genes that produce a certain look may only pop up in a 1 in 16 or even 32 ratio so there are looks or phenotypes that your birds may produce a long time down the track, Thats the fun of pigeons. Never can be 100% sure what you've got, Ok maybe sometimes you can but most of the time things do pop up. these things can be explained on most occasions with genetic rules and past breeding experiments but sometimes random mutations do occur, Ok now Im rambling on

Hope this helps a little.

Pics would help us a lot more, We may be able to give you some more concise answers.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Post some detailed pics of the parents and the young.


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## DAK1 (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks for the replies NZ Pigeon & AZ Corbin. I will ask the wife how to post the pics.
When it comes to genetics I always have that deer in the headlight look.They have hatched out 4 chicks so far and yes the white cock has the dark eyes.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So it sounds as if he is recessive white, Its a recessive trait that covers all the pigeons other colour genes, Almost like tipping a bucket of white paint over a bird, So it potentially carries many other genes underneath what you see as white. 

I am interested to see if the birds are ash red, bronze or actual brown and white, It all depends on what the cock is carrying underneath, If you are able to show a pic of each bird and also if its a cock or hen would help we may be able to figure out some of what he carries.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

The bird could be pied as well to account for the bull eye.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

well ill put my two cents in this too. Okay, i have a R white hen x a check cock that throw out a white grizzle and a red grizzle for the first round. On the second round, only one egg hatch and its a red grizzle again. I think the unhatched egg would turn out to be a white grizzle if hatch. So in my case, i believe the R white hen contributes most color to the off spring in the outside. Both ash red offsprings have yellow eyes while the white grizzle have one green eye and the other a bull eye. I assume the R white hen is carry ash red and yellow eyes. On the other hand, the check cock has green eyes. both of the check cock's parent is full blue check so he must not contribute much to his offspring's color. 

So in your case,if your white cock is carry red, you may get the same color offspring like mine. 

here is a pic of the parents.









here is their off springs. (the two in the front only)










should this thread be move to genetic discussion area?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZCorbin said:


> The bird could be pied as well to account for the bull eye.


Yeah thats true but generally if a bird is all white and has bull eyes it is recessive white, It's hard to breed a true white with pied genes but I agree it could be a pied white, Same dif really as pied whites and recessive whites are the same in the aspect they carry colours and patterns hidden underneath.

If we want to look at all the possibilities for what could be causing the bull eyes we could also bring the ice gene into the equation but its best to go with the most likely option.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> well ill put my two cents in this too. Okay, i have a R white hen x a check cock that throw out a white grizzle and a red grizzle for the first round. On the second round, only one egg hatch and its a red grizzle again. I think the unhatched egg would turn out to be a white grizzle if hatch. So in my case, i believe the R white hen contributes most color to the off spring in the outside. Both ash red offsprings have yellow eyes while the white grizzle have one green eye and the other a bull eye. I assume the R white hen is carry ash red and yellow eyes. On the other hand, the check cock has green eyes. both of the check cock's parent is full blue check so he must not contribute much to his offspring's color.
> 
> So in your case,if your white cock is carry red, you may get the same color offspring like mine.
> 
> ...


Their cock would need to carry grizzle aswell to get birds like yours. Are you sure your bird is not an ash red **** grizzle with pied to create the bull eyes.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I have moved the thread.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It is always difficult when the one parent is pure white and bull eyed to make out what genetics re involved. Bull eyed white (even when they are actually recessive white) usually carry a lot of pied and grizzle genes.

There is very little change of a white and a blue to breed pure whites, but if you mate the brown and white offspring back to the father, you should get at least some white birds.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Their cock would need to carry grizzle as well to get birds like yours. Are you sure your bird is not an ash red **** grizzle with pied to create the bull eyes.


well i believe my check cock dont carry any grizzle nor red. I saw both his parents and both are blue checks. I dont believe at first of where the ash red came from since father dont carries it but my second red offspring proves it. So i suspect its the R white hen is the carrier of red grizzle. 

if you mean the white grizzle, it could be as she does shows sa little red grizzle too but just very small. I would consider her an white grizzle but maybe a pie check too due to one of her left bull eye.

by the way as for the red grizzle off spring, he is moulting and the ash red color are turning to grayish red now.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The check doesn't carry grizzle but your hen must.


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