# darn!! ANOTHER squeaker!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

so, i saw a pigeon today with one leg totally black, and hopping on one foot, couldnt catch it, so i went looking for him in the direction he flew bcause he wasn BAD shape and i knew i had to find him. well, didnt find him, but i found some pigeons under a bvridge and there was a squeaker with it's mom. couldnt fly, but mom was thre so i left it be. well, there is a freeway exit right there, and a little ways up was another squeaker, much younger, that was all alone. he kept running over through the fence to the freeway exit, almost getting me run over by a car while i chased him off of it. 
so, i fed rice to the pigeons to get them to come by him, to watch and see if mom showed up. he started squeaking chasing any pigeon close to him, and the pigeons shooed him away and flew away first chance they got, while the other squeaker's mom was always in sight and kept by him. neither could fly. i'm going back tonight to make sure the other one got home somehow because there is A LOT of traffic there. so, all the pigeons ditched the guy i have now, and he cant fly, he cant even HOP onto a curb. very easy to catch, he is smaller than the one i had last night, has more yellow fuzz on head, and has a sharp keel bone. at the same time, his crop feels a little puffy?? but the keel bone is very protruded. he is squeaking up a storm, i'm going to feed him, but what should i do from here? 
all the pigeons left him, i JUST got home so it is almost dark, and the pigeons are mostly tucked away by now. god, i watched for a while, and am always so afraid of meddling with babies, so i was and am soooo torn on the squeaker deal. never knowing whether to take them or not, i just know he cant fly, he woulda gotten hit if i left him. is there any way i can go back and if mom or dad is there coax them to their baby? or did he fall outta nest, get ditched, what? how the heck do you people decide on matters such as this in your own experiences with finding babies and squeakers? 
i'll post pics ASAP


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, it's a combination of observations in the moment and experience.
Sometimes they are out there being clutzy teenagers w/their wings but they are with the flock and able to get off the ground. If they are a grounded 
squeaker in pretty good shape but running around frantically looking for help they can have a couple of weeks here R&R to get up to speed w/the wing-thing. I guess even they can get mystified by their own wings . 

If they look very young and vulnerable and they are grounded, and I can't get to the nest, then they come home w/me and I bring them back to the spot I
picked them up at when they can fend for themselves and rejoin the flock.

I see many of these youngsters all grown up as adults w/the flocks that
I tend to regularly.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh yea, is there something i'm supposed to do, massage the crop or something to help him go poo? i thought i read somthing about that on here somewhere. also, his crop wasnt puffy, i was imagining it i think, but he is puffed up now too.
he is passing out too. falling asleep like a narcoleptic.
i think he might be sick. he's puffed up, and he's asleep, i hold his head up and he keeps his eyes closed, do babies just get so exhausted that they are dead to the world, even when handling them? maybe cause i fed him, he's all tuckered out? man, i hope he makes it, he's scaring me right now.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> oh yea, is there something i'm supposed to do, massage the crop or something to help him go poo? i thought i read somthing about that on here somewhere. also, his crop wasnt puffy, i was imagining it i think, but he is puffed up now too.
> he is passing out too. falling asleep like a narcoleptic.
> i think he might be sick. he's puffed up, and he's asleep, i hold his head up and he keeps his eyes closed, do babies just get so exhausted that they are dead to the world, even when handling them? maybe cause i fed him, he's all tuckered out? man, i hope he makes it, he's scaring me right now.


Moxie, if the crop is emptying between feedings, then you don't need to massage it. Might be best for you to post some pictures so we can get an
idea of the age group we are dealing w/here. Will you be tubing formula to this little one?

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i just tube fed, i was looking for a link on here that showed pics or video of feeding youngsters with the method of cutting the end off the syringe and putting cloth over the end with a hole and having them stick their beaks in the hole and eat that way, sound familiar? i cant remember where it is, or who posted the link..


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, thats the link i saw before and was looking for!! thanks Sabina!!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*ok, went out to get dinner, another squeaker!!!*

so, i went up there and saw the other squeaker. i tried to run at him to caox him to fly, but he couldnt, and he was just wandering around squeaking, so i KNEW that would attract the numerous stray cats around there. poor guy, i'm starting to think these two might be siblings, they ar the EXACT same size, similar coloring, and still have fuzz.
good news, the baby i had last night i checked on through the day and she is safe and sound with Mom, Dad and Brother. i gave extra food to Mom and Dad to have the extra energy to put up with the squeakers.
so, this new squeaker, seems more healthy than the other one. he isnt puffed up, and has more energy to walk and run than th other one, but i have no doubt he woulda been dinner tonight, he cant fly nd the cats on the ground woulda heard that squeaking sooner than later.
why is it that on one of the stickies it tells you not to feed a baby on an empty stomach? and not to feed them if they are "cold?" what happens? is that just for really baby birds or squeakers too??


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If they are cold and/or dehydrated, it is difficult for them to process even easy to eat food such as formula, and this can result is a slow crop or crop stasis. If there is any doubt, make sure the little one is warm, then give either water or rehydration fluid, wait for perhaps two hours, and then give food or formula.

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, i already fed the first one, so what do i do to make sure nothing happens to it now?
you dont think thats why it's all puffed up, do you? i only gave it a tiny bit of food, and definitely didnt go down air hole...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Probably not a problem, Moxie .. this little one has been out there in the unheated world for a bit. I'd put it on a bit of heat just to be sure and keep an eye on it .. guessing that all is well.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi x,



Oye...


Lots of variables to be taken into account for every individual youngster.



Are they dehydrated? If so, they should have some hours of getting re-hydrated, with electolytes if possible, and tepid solutions of them, before being fed anything.


Is their Crop empty or half empty or full? Or empty? If it has contents, are they suspected of having become static or soured or fermenting or dessicated?



Are they pooping already? ( Keeping them on a white Towell allows one to count and evaluate the Poops...)


Are they making their own Body Heat, and making it a-plenty? - if one hold them in one's palm, like Hand-Nest, one can tell instantly. If they are not, then onto a Heating Pad or into the 'Squeaker-warm-House' they go...to BE and get thoroughly warmed up before any feeding.


...electrolytes can be given so long as they are able to keep their heads up, or be propped up surely, even if not quite warmed up yet.


Do they have signs of Canker? Any chaulky yellow or chaulky yellow liquids in their poops, or streaks of 'yellow' urates on their Feathers around their Vent?


Anyway, unless in a coma or having a dislocated Jaw, every Baby, Peeper, Squeaker I ever found or was given, was happy to eat and drink as pronto as I would let them...so long as I acted toward them and with them in their own terms.


I make foods for them which they eat and drink out of the hollow of a regular rubber people-baby Nipple.


This is so much easier than tube feeding, and, in many instances, so much safer.

I could post some links if you wanted.



Eletrolyte Solutions...


Thin special formulas for the dim or frail or ill...or for those who had suffered privation, once rehydrated...formulas which are mostly small whole Seeds with liquids...etc...which 'tubes' typically can not abide.


Feeding a chilled 'Baby' can kill them, or, make them ill...so any actual pre-endothermic Babys, or compromised chilled others, should only be fed only after being thoroughly to-the-core, warmed up and kept warm after.


Electrolytes can be given sooner, but one must be careful they can handle it.


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, some more links would be great! i thought electrolyte solution was just pedialite, gatorade or salt/sugar/water mix?
alright, one seems more alert than the other. the less alert one i already fed, so now i'm worried. although on occasion it is trying to get the other one to feed it by squeaking and pecking at it's beak, but it's only been doing that when i wake him up.
i warmed them up, but one isnt alert at all. one wakes up when i approach, the other one doesnt. i'll call the less alert one "sick baby" from here on out to keep confusion down. the other i'll just call "bigger baby," dont want to give names yet, i like them to clear a little time first.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/506974196/

here'a the link to a pic of them. sorry, it's littledark, and didnt want to move "sick baby," so i let them be while i took it. i assume this pic is just to determine age.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you still have any Metronidazole? You might give the sick one some of that in the hope that it'll do some good.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd go with a piece of the Flagyl pill about the size of this letter: o

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ya, i gotta bunch of flagyl, but you know what, "sick baby" is awake and alert now, so i'm gonna give it a day. sick baby went INSANE when i put seed in front of her. she still hasnt figured out how to eat or what to do with it, but she pecks at it, and bigger baby's just chillin.
sick baby keeps pecking at my hand and sticking her beak inbetween my fingers like she's trying to find mom's beak, and she's trying to stick her beak in big baby's beak. very confused. 
i've tried and tried the "balloon method" or nipple method of feeding, and they wont have it. they hate it. i'll try again.
should i just tube feed though? if so, how much and often?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> yes, some more links would be great! i thought electrolyte solution was just pedialite, gatorade or salt/sugar/water mix?
> alright, one seems more alert than the other. the less alert one i already fed, so now i'm worried. although on occasion it is trying to get the other one to feed it by squeaking and pecking at it's beak, but it's only been doing that when i wake him up.
> i warmed them up, but one isnt alert at all. one wakes up when i approach, the other one doesnt. i'll call the less alert one "sick baby" from here on out to keep confusion down. the other i'll just call "bigger baby," dont want to give names yet, i like them to clear a little time first.




Hi x, 



How are the poops looking? And teir Vent areas?


Your electolytes sound fine to me...sometimes ( or originally, ) I just used a splash of ACV in Water wit a little Sugar maybe.


The 'dim' one...is he making his own heat decently?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi x,



See if the not-so-well one has anyting odd going on with his Crop, and Gas or Air in it...


They can get mighty 'dim' and weak and unable to stand even, from starvaiton...


See if you can find any poops to tell us about, color wise, size wise and otherwise.


These are virtual fledglings or post fledglings...and often those of this age find perils or get seperated from their parents before learning to forrage and drink and peck on their own.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20450


Has some posts of mine which may be of help...



As does this one if you wish to feed them formula where they eat it form the hollow of a Nipple - 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20412
( which also containes links I posted to illustrative images I nave stored on webshots and so on ) 

I always do the warm-wet-finger-tip Beak Massage and "OooooOOooo!"s with any new arrive youngsters or dim post fledgleings or of any age, and either feed them in Baby ways then, or, Baby Ways for a while then on to Seed 'gobbleing' and then they are self-feeding...

Ones of the age of your two would really, REALLY appreciate some of this, and to be fed like 'Babys' with them eating and drinking from the 'Nipple' hollow.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

alright, they are pooping nicely. "sick baby" had some weird poops at first. clear, frothy, slimy with some grass green mixed in. now it is forest green with some white. "sick baby" is pecking at seeds, getting SOME, and is genrall not sick seeming AT ALL anymore. actually, "bigger baby" is calm, doesnt move much, doesnt peck at seed, is scared of me and is actually smaller than sick baby.
sick baby is a little devil, well, angel really, but with a devil's attitude. getting into everything and making a ruckus. it's cute though, i dont mind.
so, i'm just gonna call sick baby "girl" from now on and bigger baby "boy."
i know, how creative!! i just dont want names yet.
so, BOY is smallr, has more pin feathers under his wings and such.
now, i put them together because it just seems right. even when i had them in seperate baskets one would find it's way to the other. so, i'm concerned that one might get theother sick. i think GIRL, previously known as "sick baby" was just so exhausted and thats why she seemed so out of it, because she sure isnt out of it now!
sorry if this is so confusing! with the names and all, just sick baby turned out to be not so sick and bigger baby turned out to be smaller! I'M even confused here!
they wont take to being nipple fed yet, they seem to taste the formula and hate it. 
how do i tell if they have gas or air in crop? 
and Phil, THANKS SO MUCH!! those links were awesome! now i am mixing the formula right, i was doing it wrong before, every time i fed i mixed it. so THANK YOU!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, there is always a possibility of one passing "something" to the other but I believe more is gained by putting babies together. It comforts them to have one of their own kind nearby to cuddle. Too, I think they learn to eat quicker - more competition.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

hey, i need to know how much and how often i should be feeding these guys??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The KayTee instructions say 10 to 15% of their body weight per meal, three times per day (I think). So, whatever their actual weight is, you can be close enough if you call that cc's and go from there. However, they will happily eat twice that if they're healthy--they just poop more and bigger.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i dont know their weight, so can you just guesstimate how many cc's for me? i have no idea here, i'm just wingin' it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How long are the longest wing feathers?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, i dont know, will check that in morning. i posted a link to pics on first 
page, here it is again:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/506974196/
not best pics.
i'll post wing feather length tomorrow, i'm going to bed!
i got your message Pidgey, my roomate said "i think this message is for you!!"
and no mistaking that voice! Pidgey, to the rescue once again!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, well, for that size you can give them 30 milliliters at a whack with virtually no problem. They'll pester you for 60 though without any guilt.

None whatsoever.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi x,



If they do not like the formula, then maybe that is something to respect and consider.

Have you tasted it? Does it taste good to you?

Lol...


I have found, the better it tastes to me, the more they like it...and or the formulas they like best, taste best to me too.


The BEST tasteing ones can be made from fresh Seeds and dried Berrys made into powder in a Blender, with Hagens or K-T and Nutrical and other things added.

'Hagens' seems to me ( and to them) to be the real brand-of-choice as for the powder part of it.



What are you feeding them? How are you warming it? How are you feeding them?


If you can guide their Beaks to drink, you can guide their Beaks into a Shot Glass full of small whole dry Seeds, and they will 'gobble' the Seeds as you keep your finger-tips on their Beak.


Poops that are a little dark Green textureless blob or smear, in a white Urate surround is Bile, from starvation.



How much to feed a day, depends on the Baby-Peeper-Squeaker's size and condition...but enough for thirty five to fifty poops in 24 hours is likely about right if they are within average condition and 20 days old or thereabouts or more.

Count the Poops, have the Peepers/Squeakers on a white Towell lining their Cage or whatever...and if three youngsters in the same enclose, then you want to be seeing about 90-something to 130 poops in 24 hours. change the Towell each morning.

If any 'chaulky yellow' urates or liquids, then figure there is a Canker issue with that pooper.



Good luck...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

On the feeding of squeakers I have always followed Nooti's directions which are at 28 days feed 40ml twice a day to maintain their weight and three times a day to make them thrive (unless they are woodpigeons in which case they have to be fed less and more frequently). Never feed more than 40 mls in one go and always keep an eye on the crop to avoid overfilling it.

John and I also found out that baby pigeons will reject formula that is too cool for their taste, it should be around 39 degrees C, which is a pigeon's body heat.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

sorry, i havent been able to get online for a few days. the longest wing feather is a bit less than 5"
you know, one bird liked me at first, but the other was deathly afraid of me, NOW both are deathly afraid of me. they RUN shreiking at the top of their lungs when i come near them. maybe the nicer one is copying the scardy cat one? i was hoping it would be the other way around. 
i'm tube feeding, my syringe is in cc's, and i suck at math, so translate for me? my syringe is 35 cc.
one good thing about them being scared of me is they are learning to fly quicker!


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

cc = mL
same thing.
Now if you want to explore more conversion or volumetric jargon here's a link to really frighten you   (not really) (I know, not every one wants to be a science geek like me  but then again, I don't have to wear Prada to go to work)


http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/volumeunits.html

It's actually a very good link.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

why do BOTH of them hate me all the sudden? man, for all the love i get BACK from pigeons it's a wonder i still do this! 
i just pretend that they LOVE me from afar, or some denial of that nature!
one was all cuddly with me, now it wing slaps me and pecks me and runs SCREAMING for it's momma when i come near.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hold the syringe up in front of them and say, "okay, you wanna' summa' dis? You gonna' hafta' giva' Mama summa' luvvin'... !"

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

moxie, they will do this until they get used to you. We're feeding two squeakers now, one nibbles the syringe and the other runs from it, but, he is getting better. Just takes time.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> why do BOTH of them hate me all the sudden? man, for all the love i get BACK from pigeons it's a wonder i still do this!
> i just pretend that they LOVE me from afar, or some denial of that nature!
> one was all cuddly with me, now it wing slaps me and pecks me and runs SCREAMING for it's momma when i come near.


Hah! Wait 'til you get teenagers -- people ones that is. Then you can complain.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

sorry I haven't checked in for a while. Things are good w/ the squeakers although they still hate me. lol. How will I know when to release them? Also, how do I release a squeaker who's never flown free in the wild?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

am i being punished for not checking in for a bit? Raina is grounded! Raina gets NO REPLIES! 

but really! what do i do to get these guys ready for release, they have never flown free outside, so i know i cant just go throw them out one day! what is the standard operating procedure here!!

THANKS!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I didn't know quite how to answer that one for your situation. Usually, they're... "friendlier" and you can take them for forays outside on your shoulder while they get more and more used to it. You can train them to a flock like that. In your case, the first thing they're going to do is take off like little rockets and you're probably not going to see them anymore. You might be able to release them at the place where you got them and they'll hook up with their relatives. It's a toughie.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Raina, 
You've probably already read this but just in case:
To Release or Not to Release
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10874

This is also really good:
Release Criteria for Birds and Animals
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11919

You may also want to do a search for threads on "soft release." Other members know more about that than I do, so hopefully someone can post a little more about that.

We're going to have to figure out all this soon for Simone....

Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, i searched some, but can someone give me a link or overview to soft release?
it seems as if that means to have a back-up place for the squeaker to come home to, like a cage on porch, and i dont have a porch/yard. their flock is 3 or so blocks away, and i'm in an apartment, so how the heck would i do that?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there's one consolation--the meaner they are, the easier it is for them "out there". It's your friendliest ones that have the most difficult time, usually.

Pidgey


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