# Adenovirus



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone,



I am facing what might be an Adenovirus outbreak here among several of my my various house Birds and pre-release ones.


I have done a bunch of 'googles' finding nothing in the way of any practical information, or any diagnostic tips based on impirical observations of poops and symptoms and so on.


If anyone knows anything about this Virus, or similar symptom Viruses which could be mistaken for it, or knows of any practical literature about it, or, has had any experience with it, please let me know..?



Thanks,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## stach_n_flash (Mar 15, 2006)

"I've found empirically that the antibiotic Doxycycline at 300 mg per 4 liters of water was effective in the year 2001 at the Alberta Classic Derby but it alone was insufficient in 2002. Adding 1 teaspoon Ridzol-S and 300 mg Doxycycline to 4 liters of water is presently ( July 2002 ) very effective."

I got the information from the website below. Hope it helps


http://www.albertaclassic.net/adenovirus.php



Slightly old. Possibly true?


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil, 
The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management by Colin Walker speaks a bit about the virus. According to him there was an outbreak in Belgium in '92 characterized by sudden death of pigeons of all ages. None of the sick birds survived more than 48 hours. It started in a group of young birds and then spread to all ages.The birds had fluid yellow diarrhea and vomiting. The loss in each loft was about 30%. Apparently only immunosuppresed birds were succeptable to the disease, but researchers were not able to assess why the immunosuppression occurred. Birds that were in close contact with sick birds often remained well. There are two types of the virus. Type I mainly affects young pigeons and involves the digestive tract causing diarrhea and vomiting. E coli can complicate this form of the disease. Many of these birds recover. Type 2 involves the liver with death usually occurring in 24 hours. This was the form of the disease in '92 and lastedAdeno virus was a disease of chickens that was thought to have mutated to allow it to adapt to pigeons. The type 2 does not respond to antibiotics. The type 1 with the combined e. coli does well with antibiotics. Secondary infections especially wet canker and coccidia were the most dangerous opportunistic diseases in birds infected by the virus and supportive treatment was necessary till the birds could clear the virus. Symptoms of type I were watery diarrhea, vomiting and occasionally respiratory involvement.

Hope this helps. 
Margarret


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Good post Margaret, I wondered if Phil had seen the yellow droppings or vomiting? Also, in terms of secondary infections, it probably is a good idea
to do as you have done and treat for secondary bacterial infection, Phil. It can only 'lighten' their load.

fp


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

From Marx's A Veterinary Guide to Pigeon Health.
Most common symptons are green slimy diarrhea, fluid filling the crop, vomiting , increased thirst nd increased urine production. The disease tends to drag on for two to three weks. Once they are infected whether or not they show symptoms they shed the virus for months, even after they have recovered. If they recover they go on to be immune adults. Primarly seen in young birds. Most cases occur during the warmer months. Very contagious but usually only 5-10% of the flock will show symptoms. There is no specific treatment for it. Treating secondary infections lowers the death rate.

From what I have read so far, it seems that your only option to manage this outbreak is to not introduce any new birds or release any for at least a couple of months. Even longer would be better. Supportive treatment for those who show symptoms, especially for e. coli with antibiotics and the non symptomatic with probiotics.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

stach_n_flash said:


> "I've found empirically that the antibiotic Doxycycline at 300 mg per 4 liters of water was effective in the year 2001 at the Alberta Classic Derby but it alone was insufficient in 2002. Adding 1 teaspoon Ridzol-S and 300 mg Doxycycline to 4 liters of water is presently ( July 2002 ) very effective."
> 
> I got the information from the website below. Hope it helps
> 
> ...



Thanks stash_n_flash,



Darn, I still do not have any Doxycycline, and have been wanting to get some for a long time...I could on-line order some tonight or call someone tomorrow, for Next Day Air, maybe be here Wednesday anyway...


Sounds like a good regimen, and I do accept that what seemed good for any given Viris one year, can change from year to year or region to region as the Viris itself adapts and changes...so, who knows...

I do not have any definitive diagnosis as of yet anyway.


But...

No one has shown any Vomiting...

Yellow Urates have been seen variously, in normal enough poops, and or with heavy Bile once no fecal matter is passing any more...

So, in some of the of 'my' Pigeons, the illness seems to be shutting down their digestive process or Intestines or something, since some died with half full or better Crops which did not empty over two or three days, even though I adminstered Nystatin daily once I saw no poops being made...

Or the poops there were, once the Pigeon is far into the symptoms/look of it, the poops were only dark bile and some white urates, or in some, Bile and pale yellow urates...


Thanks so much...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management by Colin Walker speaks a bit about the virus. According to him there was an outbreak in Belgium in '92 characterized by sudden death of pigeons of all ages. None of the sick birds survived more than 48 hours. It started in a group of young birds and then spread to all ages.The birds had fluid yellow diarrhea and vomiting. The loss in each loft was about 30%. Apparently only immunosuppresed birds were succeptable to the disease, but researchers were not able to assess why the immunosuppression occurred. Birds that were in close contact with sick birds often remained well. There are two types of the virus. Type I mainly affects young pigeons and involves the digestive tract causing diarrhea and vomiting. E coli can complicate this form of the disease. Many of these birds recover. Type 2 involves the liver with death usually occurring in 24 hours. This was the form of the disease in '92 and lastedAdeno virus was a disease of chickens that was thought to have mutated to allow it to adapt to pigeons. The type 2 does not respond to antibiotics. The type 1 with the combined e. coli does well with antibiotics. Secondary infections especially wet canker and coccidia were the most dangerous opportunistic diseases in birds infected by the virus and supportive treatment was necessary till the birds could clear the virus. Symptoms of type I were watery diarrhea, vomiting and occasionally respiratory involvement.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Margarret



Thanks Margerret, 


Yeeeeeeesh...


Well, whatever this is, it is not that fast.


Onset of observable ( to me anyway) symptoms to dieing, seemed to have been about two and a half to three days give or take...some had lingered in mid phase and are still hanging on, others went steadily down...in fact, the symptoms seem to have changed somewhat, where, the first few who died each slowly proceeded through a progression of postures where the mid point was them standing with their neck out fully horizontal, Beak against the floor, Eyes open, and spending a day like that, wings against the floor but close to their Body...to slowly sink more to where they could not stand and had to be propped up...and liquid comeong out of their mouths if their Head was not kept elevated.

The first three were like that, and the last three did not do that, but did sort of 'sink' from a withdrawn but unremarkable standing position, to laying down limply...and had no fluids comeing out if their Head were low...


No one has thrown up anytime in recent memory, or maybe one time someone did a week ago or so, but they do that sometimes anyway...

And I have presnetly four who are in mid phase symptoms - ie weak, standing Eyes half closed, loosing weight...Bile and some Urate ( whether White or Yellow) for poops...these four started eating this afternoon, after two or three days of fasting...were eating enthusiastically with very wobbley Head motions, but were really interested in eating so I let them eat...small whole Seeds, 'Canary' Seed...

I had been afraid to tube-feed them for fear of a Static Crop or other rejection or problem...but was thinking to get on with doing so around now if nothing had changed...so, I dunno...maybe I will tube feed these four some thin formula anyway sometime before I hit the hay.

None of the prior ones would eat or show any inetrest whatever, and two at least of the initial ones had static Crops, semi full...when they perished.



Anyway...this thing seems to have been shifting quickly in the specific symptoms it makes...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Good post Margaret, I wondered if Phil had seen the yellow droppings or vomiting? Also, in terms of secondary infections, it probably is a good idea
> to do as you have done and treat for secondary bacterial infection, Phil. It can only 'lighten' their load.
> 
> fp


Hi fp, 


Thank you...makes sense...


I will elaborate shortly on what I have done, or am doing...


Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> From Marx's A Veterinary Guide to Pigeon Health.
> Most common symptons are green slimy diarrhea, fluid filling the crop, vomiting , increased thirst nd increased urine production. The disease tends to drag on for two to three weks. Once they are infected whether or not they show symptoms they shed the virus for months, even after they have recovered. If they recover they go on to be immune adults. Primarly seen in young birds. Most cases occur during the warmer months. Very contagious but usually only 5-10% of the flock will show symptoms. There is no specific treatment for it. Treating secondary infections lowers the death rate.
> 
> From what I have read so far, it seems that your only option to manage this outbreak is to not introduce any new birds or release any for at least a couple of months. Even longer would be better. Supportive treatment for those who show symptoms, especially for e. coli with antibiotics and the non symptomatic with probiotics.




Hi Margarret, 



Thank you very much, makes sense to me.


I wonder how similar or different 'Circovirus' is, or, some other ones whose names I can not think of just now...


No matter, the overall outline of whaty one would so, are likely pretty similar.


I hope that in a Week, the results of the Lad Tests will be in and I may find out what the definitive analysis is.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...


What I have done, is this - 


I got all free rovers and free fliers who drink form the Common Waterers, onto a 'Water' mixture which is 7/8ths Water, and, 1/8th STRONG Herb Tea, made from four hours or so hot ( not boiling ) Steeping of powders representing Berberry, Goldenseal, Echinechea, these being two heaping Teaspoons each to make one full Quart...and, one heaping Teaspoon each thereabouts of Kava-Kava, Slippery Elm Bark, Ginger, and, Licorice powders...with Two fairly full Teaspoons of a four Herb mix not having any of the preceeding ones to it, but a mix which is supposed to be really good for the Brain and Nervious System and Immune System generally and I forgot or never knew anyway, what is in it.


I used to make such Teas for myself, and sometimes for Birds in times past too, and as for me, I would say they always helped very much if I had a 'flu or food poisoning or some unknown really 'sick' thing going on.


To this I added maybe fourty drops of concentrated Grapefruit Extract liquid...


And, I added such "Teramycin" aka "Oxytetricycline" as to provide about 800 mG per day, per Bird, or maybe it was per Kilo, I can't remember now ( I kept notes) more or less, as I calculated in terms of how much they all drank in 24 hours. Which was usually Two Gallons roughly...but it varys...

I made three Gallons worth which by mid day today, were all dry.


Everyone really likes the Tea, and even is pleased to drink it much stronger when offered.


Too, yesterday I started giving various ones ( anyone with symptoms, and all the Babys or Youngster ones who are pre-fledglings ) small Tablets of "Dimethylglycine"...and, some Birds have been recieving daily Metronidazole also...but I have no way to do flock treatment with these last two.


The same Tea, only Stronger, I have been useing to mix the formula for the youngsters, and they really like the Tea also, as for drinking plain, as well as in the formula.

A sweet moment - I was introducing the full strength Tea to some of the ones in the Office here who were waiting for me to get some Waterers filled up and brought in.

I had a small low cup of the Tea, and I set it down indicating to them it was theirs to drink.

They looked at it, no one would touch it. It was very dark.

I picked it up, took a sip, made a face to say it was "Good" and set it down.

One larger Pigeon named 'Big Friend' walked over, very gently peck-touched the back of my hand which I still had on the Cup, and indicated he wanted to try it.

He took a tiny sip, then stood back to think about it. His mate did likewise, so they were both standing there thinking about it, ( they looked 'pleased' if pensive...) and every one else was watching them.

I said "This might help everyone with this illness-thing we have going on, and it does taste good, wouldn't you say?" and I took another ( pretend sip this time) and set it back down, and he did a tentative sip then drank like a Horse, as his mate did likewise, so I had to refill several times as various ones stepped up and had their first taste of it at full strength, and everyone seemed to find it agreeable.




It seemed to me, that not long after I started this medicated Tea-Water, whether co-incidentally as effect, or co-incidentally with no relation...the symptoms shifted from what they first were, to what they have been since.


Thats all I can think of for the moment, and I best get back to some dutys for a little while now.

My Vet today suggested I use 'Cipro' for anyone showing symptoms, and I will start adminstering their doses in a little while, since I forgot to do it earlier when I got home...


Is there any reason why I should not have some of them on Cipro AND Oxytetricycline concurrently ?




Thank you so much everyone for the informaiton and insight you have been offering..!


Love, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I checked the PDR. There is no contraindications listed for Cipro with tetracycline. It should be safe to give together.

M.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I looked up circo virus. It attacks the immune cells. The clinical profile is somewhat different than what you are seeing. Birds usually expire from secondary infection. It doesn't have the extreme GI symptoms that adenovirus has. The only other viruses I could find are the already known ones-PMV, Herpes, Respiratory viruses etc.
M.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, personally, I would eliminate any of the herbal mixtures and go with the staight meds right now. According to your post, you've lost six already? This is a really bad disease you're fighting and to be perfectly honest I have only had one pigeon who exhibited the lying down and stretching their neck out like you describe and it had canker but I don't think that is what you're dealing with. 

How is your cockatiel doing? Any danger of her picking up anything?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> I checked the PDR. There is no contraindications listed for Cipro with tetracycline. It should be safe to give together.
> 
> M.



Thanks Margaret...


The Oxytetricycline is all I have to choose from as for bulk Water Soluable Meds.

Two hour drive all tolled to get to the Farm Store to review what other packet-bulk Meds they would have...I could call and ask, but they would be annoyed and likely not be thorough as for what they have there...so, hmmmm...maybe drive over later sometime just to look.

I did mis-mention - in this or my other thread - the Oxytetriccline dose I was useing and I will ammend the mention later.

I aimed for 800 mG to the Gallon...not per kilo of patient per day...memory is shot lately.


Oye, slept like a Log, from 4:30 a.m. to 1:30 pm., feeling a little groggy still...


But keenly interested in thinking about all this more as I wake up or once I am more awake...


Coffee...!


Lol...

Just made some, taking my first sips...and I made it too weak..yuck...


Easy to make more...

Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> I looked up circo virus. It attacks the immune cells. The clinical profile is somewhat different than what you are seeing. Birds usually expire from secondary infection. It doesn't have the extreme GI symptoms that adenovirus has. The only other viruses I could find are the already known ones-PMV, Herpes, Respiratory viruses etc.
> M.



Hi Margarret,



Thank you...very much...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, personally, I would eliminate any of the herbal mixtures and go with the staight meds right now. According to your post, you've lost six already? This is a really bad disease you're fighting and to be perfectly honest I have only had one pigeon who exhibited the lying down and stretching their neck out like you describe and it had canker but I don't think that is what you're dealing with.
> 
> How is your cockatiel doing? Any danger of her picking up anything?




Hi Maggie,


I had one for sure three or four years ago who had these same making himself long and horizontal ways...and I was not able to save him.


Well...golly, hard to think...


I do not know if Cockateils can get the Adenovirus, or, of course, if that is in fact for sure what the illness is...

But, all I can say, is that those several who have symptoms, have symptoms...and those who do not, so far, do not.


She is not among the ones who do...


I was feeling conflicted about the Oxytetricycline, because I read something about it compromising the Liver, and I felt that their LIvers were already being burdoned by this illness...


Oh sheeesh...I dunno what to do.


Keep on the Tetticycline?

I s'pose...


The Tea...they really like it, and I know it had helped me in times passed, very definitely helped...not this exact version of it, but close...and these recipes are very forgiving...

If I had to make a wager, I would wager heavily that it is helping them.



Well, I want to make some decent Coffee now, so...back soon...


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, if you feel the herbs are helping then by all means continue.

You may, just to be on the safe side, put your cockatiel in a cage for the duration of this illness, in an area away from the pigeons. She may get mad as fire but it may help protect her too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, if you feel the herbs are helping then by all means continue.
> 
> You may, just to be on the safe side, put your cockatiel in a cage for the duration of this illness, in an area away from the pigeons. She may get mad as fire but it may help protect her too.


Hi Maggie, 


Unfortunately, there is no area away from the Pigeons...there is only the continuous Office and Front Room, which are my Office and Living Quarters.

Various Cages I have made poop-proof from above, with Cardboard 'Roofs'...but that is about all I can do, aside from keeping certain Cages distant from others.


Feral Cats for months now have been frequenting the 1,600 ft Workshop, and remain in there whether I have the large Roll up Door open or closed.


One never sees a Mouse there anymore...so they have done well as far as that goes...but it also means there is basically no place out there for any Caged Bird.


The four Pigeons ( two mated pairs) who call the Shop 'Home' live in the 14 foot ceiling...which the Cats can not get to ( and neither can I presently, since there is no place or room to set up a ladder...too crowded out there and no easy way to move things since there is no room to move them to to get them out of the way to set up a Ladder, so that is pending...)


I never thought of any of this as taking 'time' but it does.


Just fed the various young ones and tube fed some convelesents, and made some more Tea for todays new Drinking Water batch, havent filed the Waterers yet even, and, just for that, two hours fled by...


I am getting hungry for that matter..!

I have been thinking, that as most Viruses are understood to have somehting for an 'incuation period', I am sure everyone in here has been abundantly exposed and then some.


Whether trying to get free fly ones into semi protected Cages would make any difference now...I am doubtful it would.


Little 'Butter Cup' finds Cages to be very inviting, certain shaped or sized ones especially, when I am cleaning or freshening Cagesshe likes to go in and sort of hang out or graze fresh Seeds if any are in there. I am sure she would be fine in a Cage...



Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, you can mix the members of the Tetracycline family with Baytril (or Cipro, same/same) and Metronidazole all concurrently. Cam, who had the horizontal posture and whose sibling died in the position in the nest had this mixture and survived Paratyphoid, Trichomonas, Candiasis, and Adenovirus-a very severe case of conjunctivitis and very severe respiratory congestion/infection. She ended up exuding a yellowy discharge from the pores of her skin and lost most all of the feathering on 
her head. I don't think she would have pulled through w/out this extreme
drug cocktail. You might consider this w/the birds that are starting to show
signs of going south. 

Also, Maggie's husband makes their own cages w/1/4" galvanized for their
rescues, you might think of this design if you need to isolate more and have
no way to achieve this. Here's a single post which Maggie describes the
'hospital accomodations':

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=201263&postcount=24

Also, if you jump up to 2 or 3 squares per inch instead of the 4 per inch !/4"
hardware cloth, it will still keep mice out yet cut the cost of the hardware cloth significantly.

As for the other products in the water, I just don't tend to mix the herbals w/regular meds. I don't want to risk compromising the meds from some conflict I was unaware of, and I want to make sure that their water intake
is as normal as possible. Not too much or too little.

I'm sorry it seems that more may be joining the critical care ranks, Phil,
sounds like a very sad time for you.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,



I have made Cages but right now the logistics are too troublesome and time is a very big problem...but definitely the 1/4 schedule Screen is best by my reconning also...and 3/16ths or 1/8th even seem very good to me.

Mice can not get into those Cages which I have on a long table, they can not climb the legs.

I had made some cages a long time ago which had 1/2 schedule Wire Screen, and the MIce would get half way in, or half way out,and their haunches would get stuck, and one had to delicately snip and bend the immediate cross wires on two sides to get them out.

Of course that suggested a closer schedule be elected next time,and none of those old Cages are in use presently anyway.




If a Heating Pad is pulgged in, I have to make a 'collar' for the Cord so they do not climb up it...even if it is draped high first, then to the floor, they will climb it if no 'collar' is on it.

Truly, my little abode here was never an ideal situation in which to have more than a few Birds/Pigeons...

It was just very hard to find a place from which to refuse the next injured/sick/orphanned one...and, overall, I am very glad I was not swamped more than I had been.


I think it best for me to refuse any new ones now of course...


So, this sort of settles that question in it's own way.


From what I was able to read in various forays, there was no mention of any problems with these Herbs and any of these Medications...and in fact, some of these Herbs are felt to enhance and compliment the efficacy of various Antibiotics.

...while I did some some mentions of some combinations which would be best avoided appearently, all were far from these conditions at hand.


Phil
L v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Good luck w/the birds, Phil. Hope things improve there.*

fp


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

A virus CANNOT be treated but goes away on its own.. Anti-biotics are useless.. BUT they should be given as viruses weaken the immune system making the victim prone to secondary infections.. If you can give the support your bird needs, (with medicine, love), she will make it...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hamza said:


> A virus CANNOT be treated but goes away on its own.. Anti-biotics are useless.. BUT they should be given as viruses weaken the immune system making the victim prone to secondary infections.. If you can give the support your bird needs, (with medicine, love), she will make it...




Hi Hamza, 



Yes....this is my appreciation.


One may try and support their Immune System with special nutrition, provide adequate hydration and general nutrition, and, provide any of various Antibiotics or other Medicines to confront possible or actual secondary illness.


I know that variations of this Herb Tea had helped me in occasions of having some 'flu or other.


Thank you..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hamza said:


> A virus CANNOT be treated but goes away on its own.. Anti-biotics are useless.. BUT they should be given as viruses weaken the immune system making the victim prone to secondary infections.. If you can give the support your bird needs, (with medicine, love), she will make it...


Yes, Hamza, viral infections need to run their course. They are however,
accompanied by or morph into secondary infections that do require antibiotics.
Of the issues that Cam was facing, there were too many factors not to place
her on antibiotics. I doubt she would be alive today w/out having had them
administered. 

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hamza said:


> A virus CANNOT be treated but goes away on its own.. Anti-biotics are useless.. BUT they should be given as viruses weaken the immune system making the victim prone to secondary infections.. If you can give the support your bird needs, (with medicine, love), she will make it...


Yes, Hamza, viral infections need to run their course. They are however,
accompanied by or morph into secondary infections that do require antibiotics. Of the issues that Cam was facing, there were TOO many factors not to place her on antibiotics. I doubt she would be alive today w/out having had them administered. Paratyphoid alone could have taken her. I pulled her from death's doorstep, period the end.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


I went and talked with a heavy duty and long experienced Pharmacist, a genuinely charming lady in fact.


I asked her if she knew of any reasons why a Grapefruit Seed extract should be with-held during a course of conventional Antibiotics...long story and good conversation short: No reason not to use both concurrently, so far as she knew.


Second, my Herb Teas, where I told her all the ingredients, as for being concurrent with conventional Antibiotics...she said the only thing she could think of was m-a-y-b-e to have them drink their Teas between-times of recieving their Antibiotics, rather than to have them consume both at the same time, just to allow each their due in being processed in their digestive systems.


What a stellar gal...I will be back to visit her again.


So, just wanted to let you all know on those two things...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

An interesting article on Adenovirus:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/Adeno.cfm

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks fp,




I have to suppose that it is not the conjectured candidate of Adenovirus which has been vexing things here, oweing to how all mentions of it include regurgitation...and no one has shown any regurgitation now or in the past.


The "PHEV" or Type II Herpes Virus is one I am trying to find out more about - 

http://www.epah.net/birds/Herpesvirus.html


Which at least in this mention, seems close to what I have been seeing...although I am not sure if the term 'paralysis' means unable to move, or merely not wishing to move from discomfort, but if the former, then I would have to say I have seen no paralysis.


I have seen lots of head twisting in the Squeakers, and they are mostly done with that now...and I see it in at least one post fledgling who did not have anything else to notice as far as what he got from all this...but he has some wild head motions when eating...and he never used to.


I might have PPMV and something else going on...for all I know.

Anyway, no 'slimey' or 'stringy' Mouths or Throats in the afflicted...and no repiratory problems...


Canker seems to be comeing back also ( some of these show some 'strings')...even in some of the Cage Birds who have not been free rovers, or maybe it never left. One, has no History of having ever had it prior, and he shares nothing with anyone else, unless, m-a-y-b-e, someone pooped in his watewr from atop his Cage, prior to my having Cage Lids...or he somehow developed a weakened system and it is his own background fauna come to bother him.

THAT, seems to me to have been where all this started - I was finding some seemingly resistive Canker amid the free rovers, and was missing my "Berimax" dearly...then not long after THAT unhappy protracted matter..."this".



Oye...


This has shown me also, very profoundly, how complicated Medicine can be, or is, in so far as trying to say "what" something is as agent, which is appearently making someone ill...when appearances and symptoms for widely different causative agents, can so resemble eachother.

Or how many overlapping or simultaneous things, are possibly agents in these range of symptoms and how the sympotms have changed as things progressed.


Gotta feed some various ones now...Mr. "Tube" is putting on his walking Shoes...


I suddenly wondered earlier, if Metronidazole et al are "bid" or once-a-day, as for their stated so-much-per-kilo????


I have always assumed ( wrongly? Or..?) that it was once-a-day.


My Notes indicate "200 mG/kG PO ( what is "PO"? 'per Oral'? ) 


Should be ammended to be "BID"? ( Twice-a-day...meaning 200 mG/kG every 12 Hours...? ) 


Do you know?


Thanks!


Phil
L v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

PO is oral .. BID is twice per day ..

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


What I am asking, is if Metronidazole and it's kin are "BID"...

And, if the 200 mG / kG ( if this is the right figure at all anyway, ) means BID THAT amount every 12 hours? Or that amount in 24 hours?

This has confused me...

200 mG / kG BID would be 400 mG per kG every 24 hours, if it is so...


So for a 250 Gram Pigeon, that would be 100 mG every 12 Hours then?

If this IS so, then the old instructions I had were causing me TO seriously underdose for years now.

This whole God blessed manner OF stating medicine doses is very bad.


All one ever had to say is "X amount of Meds, every 12 hours, for every Kilo of patient's weight" and any idiot could understand it...

NOT being clearly stated, has messed me up many times, and causes me no end of mental consternations...


Phil
l v


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, the only thing I can tell you about the metronidazole is that we use a 250 mg pill, crush it and add it to 10 cc of distilled water and give the appropriate dose to the bird 2 x day.

I appreciate the info about the grapefruit extract. I know that grapefruit and grapefruit juice is contraindicated in many medicines.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Terry,
> 
> 
> ............
> ...


No, the dosing amount remains the same whether BID, TID or QID. They
simply get the prescribed amount of medicine:

BID=twice daily
TID=thrice daily
QID=4 x's daily

Go to the formulary on the CD and you will find a page that explains all of the
abbreviations. It might be easier for you to print the formulary out along w/the 
abbreviation 'legend' and keep in a folder to have as a 'book' to refer
to.

fp


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

When an Rx is written bid,tid,qid etc. it means during that day when the patient is awake, so bid would be twice during the waking hours. Usually that would be given at either 8 am. and 5 pm or at 8am and 8 pm. A qid dose could be given that day at 8-12-4-8. It allows that the patient is asleep without disturbance for meds for 8 hours in the 24.

If a medication is to be given at evenly measured inervals, then it will be written Q6 hrs or Q12hrs etc.. (Q means each or every). This does not rely on a 24 hour day and the patient gets these meds at whatever interval is specified round the clock. If a medication is written Qday, that is just once in 24hours. You can pick the time. If it is written QHS, that is one dose at the hour of sleep.

Hope this makes sense.

M.


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

............
This has confused me...

200 mG / kG BID would be 400 mG per kG every 24 hours, if it is so...
quote) Phil

..........
This would be read 200 mg in one K given twice during the same day, probably at 8am and 4pm as the birds would not be drinking at night. You are making a soulution of a certain concentration based on what the average bird drinks during a 24 hour period. To make up a solution of 400mg/K and give it over 24 hours would be giving double the amount of medication per bird. In this instance they want a solution of 200mg/K to be available to the flock daily for whatever period of time you need to treat. It is probably written to be given bid because the medication might settle out or the birds might drink more than 1K if the flock is large. For whatever reason the prescriber wants a fresh solution made up twice during the one day of the 200mg/K concentration.

M.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I believe the dose of Metronidazole for birds is 50 mg per kg of weight. Assuming you dissolve a 250 mg tablet of Metronidazole in 10 cc of water, you have a resulting strength of 25 mg per cc of the solution. Using this strength of solution the following amounts would be given twice per day for the various weights:

100 grams - 0.2 cc
150 grams - 0.3 cc
200 grams - 0.4 cc
250 grams - 0.5 cc
300 grams - 0.6 cc
350 grams - 0.7 cc
400 grams - 0.8 cc
450 grams - 0.9 cc
500 grams - 1.0 cc

http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/infectives2.htm contains the following dosage information:

Metronidazole

Bird Pigeons: 50 mg/kg BW PO bid for 5 days (Johnson-Delaney; 1996)
Pigeons: 200-250 mg/kg BW PO sid for 3-7 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 10-20 mg/kg BW IM sid for 2 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 4 g/gal drinking water for 3-7 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996) 

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, the only thing I can tell you about the metronidazole is that we use a 250 mg pill, crush it and add it to 10 cc of distilled water and give the appropriate dose to the bird 2 x day.
> 
> I appreciate the info about the grapefruit extract. I know that grapefruit and grapefruit juice is contraindicated in many medicines.




Hi Maggie, 


Thanks...

So, just to be pedantic and clear ( which works best for me usually)...the Metronidazole Dose for Pigeons/Doves is to be understood as -


200 mG per Kilo every 12 hours?



Grapefruit extract...contra-indicated for Blood Pressure lowering Medicines if memory serve...as there is a synergistic enhancement of the Medications by any Grapefruit intake ( including of course regular old Grapefruits or Jiuces even) which gan cause the Blood Pressure to get too low.


Othwerise, that is the only specific one I know of where it is to be avoided.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> ...


No .. the pigeon dose for Metronidazole is 50 mg per kg of weight. Where did you come across the 200 mg/kg dosage information? It does show in the link I quoted a 200-250 mg/kg dose ONCE per day, but I think that is a very, very high dose even at once per day.

In the doses I posted, you would determine by the weight of the pigeon how much to give and give that amount TWICE per day.

Terry


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, check out this link which shows there is a wide range of medicines for different illnesses where grapefruit juice is to be avoided. There are some antibiotics mentioned. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050124010803.htm


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted by pdpbison
> Hi Terry,
> 
> 
> ...





feralpigeon said:


> No, the dosing amount remains the same whether BID, TID or QID. They
> simply get the prescribed amount of medicine:
> 
> BID=twice daily
> ...



So, a notation of "Metronidazole, 200mG/k, PO, BID"


...would mean, if for a one Kilogram Bird, 200 Miligrams total for a 24 hour period, being devided by 2, or 100 Miligrams, for being adminstered twice during waking Hours..?


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> 
> When an Rx is written bid,tid,qid etc. it means during that day when the patient is awake, so bid would be twice during the waking hours. Usually that would be given at either 8 am. and 5 pm or at 8am and 8 pm. A qid dose could be given that day at 8-12-4-8. It allows that the patient is asleep without disturbance for meds for 8 hours in the 24.
> 
> ...




Hi Margarret, 


Sleep....around here, is whatever Naps anyone elects to have...whenever they elect to have them.


Lol...

The Birds and me ar 'up' many times till long after Sun up before I go to bed.


And usually my going to bed is the tacit signal for everyone to settle down and stay put, whether they are sleeping or not.


It is amazing how they have adjusted to this.

I go to bed at say 7:30 A.M., and get up say at 11:00 A.M., all is quiet and serene...everyone quietly perched, day dreaming or preening or just relaxed...


And soon as my feet hit the floor, it starts...Someone takes off and flys to a feed bowl, someone else begins an 'Aroooo!-Ku-Rooo!" dance, others fly to here or there and all sorts of commotions of waking life begin.


So. med wise, here, a 'BID' is at whatever roughly 12 hour interval it happens to be...more or less...


Phil
L V


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> ............
> This has confused me...
> 
> 200 mG / kG BID would be 400 mG per kG every 24 hours, if it is so...
> ...


Hi Margarret, 


Where all this started, was with a Bottle of Pills from "Foys" which said "Give one trablet daily for three to five days" and the tablets were 60 mG...Metronidazole.


I have nothing else to go on, and no other references.


Later, on Pigeontalk, someone posted the Metronidazole dose as being properly one of "200 mG/K PO" and that was it.

I wrote that down in my notes.


Later, on reflection, here, in this thread, I was trying to ask whether 'that' notation was meant to be one of "BID"...since most medicines seem to be "BID".


To me this has been very confusing and ambiguous, in so far as how to interpret the meaning of dosage for the amount of meds being mentioned, and whether one cuts that in half FOR two administrations as "BID", or, whether the amount stated is for EACH administration in a BID.


I feel this is a very dangerous and clumsey tradition for Phramceuticals to suffer, when it would have been so easy from the get-go to merely say "Doseage - so much per Kilo, every X Hours"


Nothing ambiguous there...


I still feel confused!


The Metronidazole I have are ( yes, another Bottle of Pills from 'Foys' with the meaningless label instructions) "Pills"...rated at 60 mG each.


So, if the Pigeon weighs say 250 grams, that would be 1/4th of a Kilogram.


If the Metronidazole is supposed to be dosed at a rate of 200 mG per Kilo for 24 Hours, then, if to BE a 'BID' regimen, the Bird would get 1/4 of 200 mG - being 50 mG - in 24 hours, or, 24 mG every 12 hours...

Forget about who sleeps when...


Yes?


Oye! This has driven me nuts!


Lol...

Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> No .. the pigeon dose for Metronidazole is 50 mg per kg of weight. Where did you come across the 200 mg/kg dosage information? It does show in the link I quoted a 200-250 mg/kg dose ONCE per day, but I think that is a very, very high dose even at once per day.
> 
> In the doses I posted, you would determine by the weight of the pigeon how much to give and give that amount TWICE per day.
> 
> Terry


Hi Terry, 


Okay...


The 200 mg/k PO was posted somewhere on one the recent threads.


And I had later wondered whether it was implicitly a BID or not...

And then I got confused about whether BID means the stated dose is given twice, or whether one is supposed to know to cut the dose in half in order to give two doses totalling the stated amount.


Maybe it is because I am so tired, but I hate that system of stating doses.


The inherant ambiguity is not worth the luxury for indulging mere brevity in how it is stated.


How much per 24 hours, is definite. Where secondarily, one may divide the dose then into however many adminstrations, which could also be definite.


Just the method of notation to me, was never clear at all...


Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, check out this link which shows there is a wide range of medicines for different illnesses where grapefruit juice is to be avoided. There are some antibiotics mentioned.
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050124010803.htm




Hi Maggie,


Ooooo! Good find..!


I will print this out for my new Pharmacist.


I did not elect to use the Grapefruit extraxt presently for this illness outbreak.


I started to, then decided not to.

Granted, "Oxytetricycline" does not appear on their List, but I will err on the side of caution for the time being on the Grapefruit extract use.


Thank you!


Good article...!



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> So, a notation of "Metronidazole, 200mG/k, PO, BID"
> 
> 
> ...would mean, if for a one Kilogram Bird, 200 Miligrams total for a 24 hour period, being devided by 2, or 100 Miligrams, for being adminstered twice during waking Hours..?
> ...


Phil, when the formulary says xx mg/kg, it means that xx milligrams per kilogram of weight 
is the amount of medicine to be dosed to the bird. Whether you divide the pill into equal 
pieces to get the correct amount 
or make a solution to be syringed or incorporate the medication into
drinking water. It's all based on the statement that xx milligrams per kilogram
are to be administered to the bird. Some folks may find one method of delivery
easier or more appropriate to the patient's circumstances than another.

The next piece of information is PO, this is telling you that the medication
will be given orally instead of by other means such as IntraMuscular, IntraVeinous, etc.

The next piece of information is BID. This means TWICE a day....And what
are we to give twice a day??? We are to give xx milligrams per kilogram
twice a day.

fp


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Lots Of Us Confused .. Accuracy Check Please*

Can some members please chime in here? I have posted that I thought the recommended dosage of Metronidazole for a bird is 50 mg per kg of weight. Is this correct?

I also posted the amount of a solution to give per dose that was made from a 250 mg Metronidazole tablet dissolved in 10 cc of water giving a strength of 25 mg of Metronidazole per cc of the resulting solution. 

Please see my post and let us know if I have posted correct amounts. There is some concern from a very respected and experienced member that my dosage amounts are double what that member gives given the 250 mg tablet in 10 cc of water. I just want to be very sure that I have not made a serious error and thus have confused this whole issue even worse than it was.

Thanks for your assistance.

Terry


----------



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

hi phil

usually in formularies, if the dose is supposed to be divided, it says "X mg/kg/day in 2 divided doses." or it can be said, "x mg/kg bid" which means they already divided the amount. hope that makes things a little clearer!

sabina


----------



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

your math seems correct to me, terry, going on the assumption that the dose is 50 mg/kg bid. ie for a 250g bird, 12.5 mg or 0.5 cc bid.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, when the formulary says xx mg/kg, it means that xx milligrams per kilogram of weight
> is the amount of medicine to be dosed to the bird. Whether you divide the pill into equal
> pieces to get the correct amount
> or make a solution to be syringed or incorporate the medication into
> ...




Hi fp,


Thank you...

Yes, that part never seemed ambiguous to me...that part, I was always clear on...



> The next piece of information is PO, this is telling you that the medication
> will be given orally instead of by other means such as IntraMuscular, IntraVeinous, etc.



Understood...



> The next piece of information is BID. This means TWICE a day....



Here the ambiguity begins...




> And what
> are we to give twice a day??? We are to give xx milligrams per kilogram
> twice a day.
> 
> fp



Which would be twice the dosage the patient should have...


If the Medicing is supposed to be adminstered at "XX/k, PO, BID"


Then there remains the ambiguity of whether XX is the amount of each of the two doses, or, if XX is the amount of the two doses combined...



Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Can some members please chime in here? I have posted that I thought the recommended dosage of Metronidazole for a bird is 50 mg per kg of weight. Is this correct?
> 
> I also posted the amount of a solution to give per dose that was made from a 250 mg Metronidazole tablet dissolved in 10 cc of water giving a strength of 25 mg of Metronidazole per cc of the resulting solution.
> 
> ...




Hi Terry, 


I think it is good we all review this, since I know my own confusions can not be unique, as well as to just run through it generally for everyone to make sure they have the right info and understanding.


Thanks for your help..!


Phil
L v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sabina said:


> hi phil
> 
> usually in formularies, if the dose is supposed to be divided, it says "X mg/kg/day in 2 divided doses." or it can be said, "x mg/kg bid" which means they already divided the amount. hope that makes things a little clearer!
> 
> sabina


Hi sabina,


Thank you...

But, I do I know when or where someone HAS divided the dose for me, or when they have not...when all I have to go on are hear say or abstracts from formularies saying "XX/K-BID" and What the heck does BID actually mean? Does it mean "Divided Dose" or "Twice Daily"?



If twice daily, then I am supposed to just know TO divide the dose in half for each adminstration? Or am i supposed to know that the 'dose' IS the dose for EACH adminstration????

"BID" Means they ( 'they'?) already divided the dose then?


So "200mG/k-BID" would mean "Two doses of 100mg/k, each day"?




I remain as confused as when I first asked...!


Lol...


Phil
L v


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Terry, I think what has happened is that over time the dose rate may have been reevaluated as it did w/Ronidazole at least twice when the recommended dosage was increased. The other issue is that there are gradations on dosing in the Clinical Avian Medicine Formulary (for members wanting that formulary, see Resource Section under IVIS) that include Pharmacokinetic research, to Manufacturer's recommendation to Published w/out Reference and Anecdotal. This is really one huge range in terms of 'classical' reliability. 

I haven't found any difference in the dose rate dependant on what is being 
treated thus far, but I have noticed a difference in what the dose rate is
dependant on how many days and how many times per day the medication
is being dosed. This would mean that folks need to look at formularies carefully to see what is being said. There may also be an overall difference
for the animal formularies and the human formularies.

Here is a link to Merck's On-line Formulary that recommends 60 mgs per kg:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/201400.htm&word=pigeons

As for Clinical Avian Medicine, the two entries for pigeons are as follows:

200mg per kg orally everyday *This is published w/out reference
200-250mg per kg orally everyday *This is anecdotal

Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook for Veterinarians' formulary:

Metronidazole (tab) PO 50mg's/kg q12h x 5d; or 
200-250mg/kg q24 x 3-7d 

**Both of these above dose rates are listed for using w/protozoal or anaerobic bacteria. 

Metronidazole(inj) IM 10-20mg/kg q24x2d or
Water 4000mg/gal drinking H2O x 3-7days

The only area that I am seeing the lower dose for Metronidazole is for
general avian listings such as what one might find in Rupley's Manual of Avian Practice or some others that also give non-pigeon specific listings.

Hope this helps

fp


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Still Too Confusing ..*

We HAVE to be able to give members an easy to understand and VALID dose of the drugs being suggested.

SO .. is it 50 mg/kg BID .. or in the 200-250 mg/kg SID?

My thought is that 50-60 mg/kg BID (twice per day) is effective and should be used. If someone disagrees, then they need to post here with their thoughts and reasons.

ASSuming it is a go with my thought, then my calculations were correct and should be followed. 

We need to STOP making this so hard for new and even long term and experienced members. 

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> We HAVE to be able to give members an easy to understand and VALID dose of the drugs being suggested.
> 
> SO .. is it 50 mg/kg BID .. or in the 200-250 mg/kg SID?
> 
> ...


Hi Terry, 


In your above mentions, we find:




> My thought is that 50-60 mg/kg BID (twice per day) is effective and should be used. If someone disagrees, then they need to post here with their thoughts and reasons.



Which is still ambiguous to me, since it is not clear whether you are saying - or whether one is supposed to know to intrepret - that the 50-60 mg/kg BID is to mean 50-60 mg/kg AS the dose which is given "twice", being then 100 - 120 mg Total dosage over 24 Hours, or, a dose which one is supposed to know to cut in to two, for giving two half-doses which together, total 50-60 mg/kg for a 24 hour period.


This is what is vexing me...and has from the beginning!


Phil
l v


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> We HAVE to be able to give members an easy to understand and VALID dose of the drugs being suggested.
> 
> SO .. is it 50 mg/kg BID .. or in the 200-250 mg/kg SID?
> 
> ...



Terry, the larger dosing amounts knock down the populations but don't help
to keep 'vigilance' against infection for tissue comromised/damaged. The 
really low dosing PO that reflects older recommened levels help contribute to 
resistance of the organism to the medication. The low dose that reflects IM administration shouldn't be on the table for discussion for PO administration. 

The 50-60mg. range is the more accepted amount to dose w/specifically for pigeons and not just an avian dosage in general and PO. Either one of these two mid range amounts dosed twice a day for 5 consecutive days seems to 
be the standard bearer that comes from the medical community and tailored
specifically for pigeons.

fp


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> We HAVE to be able to give members an easy to understand and VALID dose of the drugs being suggested.
> 
> SO .. is it 50 mg/kg BID .. or in the 200-250 mg/kg SID?
> 
> ...


Why must you guys use the BID or SID or whatever? What's wrong with xx amount once a day or xx amount twice a day? You're doctor may write the BID's and SID's on the perscription slip, but when you get a bottle of medicine or pills it's pretty clear how to take it. One tablet once a day, or two tablets with meals, etc............ 
I've yet to ask about how to give meds, as what I use has it on the bottle of meds anyway, but if I did, I would be totally confused with some of the instructions that are given here. 
Just a thought. The average person (that would be me ) could care less about how any of you come up with a formulary. We just want to know how much to give the darn bird. And how many times a day to give it. Just a thought. 
If I need to divide a pill up in to a million pieces and give a flake twice a day, that I can understand. If I need to disolve something in 10 cc's of water and give 3 mg a day......that I can understand.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Why must you guys use the BID or SID or whatever? What's wrong with xx amount once a day or xx amount twice a day? You're doctor may write the BID's and SID's on the perscription slip, but when you get a bottle of medicine or pills it's pretty clear how to take it. One tablet once a day, or two tablets with meals, etc............ 
I've yet to ask about how to give meds, as what I use has it on the bottle of meds anyway, but if I did, I would be totally confused with some of the instructions that are given here. 
Just a thought. The average person (that would be me ) could care less about how any of you come up with a formulary. We just want to know how much to give the darn bird. And how many times a day to give it. Just a thought. 
If I need to divide a pill up in to a million pieces and give a flake twice a day, that I can understand. If I need to disolve something in 10 cc's of water and give 3 mg a day......that I can understand.
__________________
Renee,
I agree and I'm glad you said it. The best part is that your post even made sense. Thank you.


----------



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

You guys are absolutely right! I usually tailor what i'm writing to the specific person I'm responding to (in terms of how technically I write), and in doing so, I forget about the larger pigeon community who might be using these posts as a resource. From now on, i'll translate the formulary info into normal people language! Sorry for adding to any confusion!
Sabina


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> * *Why must you guys use the BID or SID or whatever?*
> 
> ** *You're doctor may write the BID's and SID's on the perscription slip, but when you get a bottle of medicine or pills it's pretty clear how to take it. One tablet once a day, or two tablets with meals, etc*


* The BID's, TID's, Sub-Q's, etc., is common language for those of us who have been, or are, in the medical profession, or those who have advanced medical knowledge, however those terms are *very *confusing to those who are not familiar with medical terminology. 

I don't participate in the medication discussions much because I am not that familiar with the doses, ratios, etc. I leave that up to those who are.  
I do think though, we need to revert to 'layman' language. I also think this should be done when referencing the anatomy of a bird. JMO

** You're exactly right Renee, when we receive a 'filled' prescription, it states take one tablet daily, twice daily, etc. 

Cindy


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> Thank you...
> ...


Phil, the reason I went over the language in the formulary is that it couldn't
be clear w/some of the end results that you are arriving at. If you think of
it in steps, and not comingle the pieces of info, you'll probably be fine.

The dose, is the dose, is the dose when written as it is above and does not
change. What then may vary is how many times you give that dose throughout the day. If in the future, folks who want to use medical language
also include layperson's language here or layperson's alone, this should help
to overcome confusion.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, the reason I went over the language in the formulary is that it couldn't
> be clear w/some of the end results that you are arriving at. If you think of
> it in steps, and not comingle the pieces of info, you'll probably be fine.
> 
> ...



Hi fp,


How much medicine a Bird gets IN A DAY to me matters...and I believe must matter for us to adminster Medicines responsibly.

The total number of given quantity-doses given to the Bird in a day, has to matter.


How can we know what to do, when the info, such as yours just now, is so entirely missing or lacking the import of the question, and does not have or address the actual needed information?


Possibly, it does not matter to YOU how many given-quantity 'doses' a Bird gets in a day, just so long as one knows that "a Dose-is-a-Dose", and is so much mG per Kilo??????


I can not believe that!

It must matter -


We need to know the relationship between the actual quantity OF a given dose, and how many OF 'those' particular doses a Bird gets in a day, or in 24 hours.

Thats what I need to know anyway.


It should be obvious that knowing how MUCH in 24 hours IS very important so we do not underdose or overdose or harm them.



If we knew that XX Milligrammes of Metronidazole for our Bird's weight, needs to be given every 24 hours, and that for it to work best, we should divide it into two, three or four doses whose combined amount IS that amount...then we would know what to do.


So much per kilo, over what time period? Would be another way of stating this.

So much per kilo..."period" does nothing to state a REAL dose at all, if that dose may be given only once, or four times in a day...the difference then, is HUGE in terms of what the Bird actualy gets.


The real dose MUST be how much per kilo in a given time period, such as, in a "day" for example.


The quantity of an individual dose is only HALF the equation - how many of THOSE doses, in a day, IS the other half.


I have no idea now what to do regarding "metronidazole" or how it should be dosed and how many doses a day of WHAT QUANTITY PER DOSE ???


And appearently, I never did...


Anf for all my asking, I still do not know!


I am glad I started all this asking, and it needs to be resolved for all our sakes, and for the sakes of these Birds we are treating..!



Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil,

Of course it matters what dose rate a bird gets in its' treatment therapy. I do
think you would benefit by at least taking a look at the guide at the end of
said formulary. The formulary equation that you are asking folks to comment
on has no TD reference to it therefore one follows the formula for the dose 
and then proceeds to dose however many dosings per day are called for.
I just can't say this same value in too many different ways. I will, in the 
future, incorporate laypersons' terminology whenever dosing info is being
sought to avoid this type of confusion.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil,
> 
> Of course it matters what dose rate a bird gets in its' treatment therapy. I do
> think you would benefit by at least taking a look at the guide at the end of
> ...


Hi fp, 

This topic is intended to be a discussion, where we share our knowledge or experience or information, and discuss them.

Ideally, in this particular case, we do this to resolve a real problem, and, to share the solution TO that problem, which in this case, is how to use Metronidazole for Canker in Pigeons.

Merely refering someone to documents which almost no one has or is going to have, when an answer would suffice, hardly seems to me to be the spirit of the Forum.



> I will, in the
> future, incorporate laypersons' terminology whenever dosing info is being
> sought to avoid this type of confusion.


You could do so JUST "by" doing so ...

Maybe you could just make a post which repesents the germain text which occurs 'at the end of the formulary' for the benifit of those who do not posess the document?

That way, we could see for ourselves what it says.

Best wishes, 

Regardless...

Phil
L v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK .. another try here ..

Phil,

For a pigeon, we want to get 50 mg of Metronidazole per kilogram of weight of the bird into the bird two times per day making that a total of 100 mg of Metronidazole per kilogram of weight of the bird each day. If the bird weighs 1 kilogram, then 100 mg is the amount to get in each day, and that 100 mg is divided into two doses of 50 mg each given at approximately 12 hour intervals.

Obviously, very few of our pigeons weigh 1 kilogram (approx 2.2 pounds). Thus, we must calculate how much to give based upon the weight of the bird. That's why I posted my little "chart" in 50 grams of weight increments .. to make it easy to know how much to give. My chart ASSumes that each 1 cc of solution contains 25 mg of Metronidazole. If you mix the solution to that strength, and follow the chart I posted, you are right on.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> OK .. another try here ..
> 
> Phil,
> 
> ...


Hi Terry, 


Thanks, you are a sweetie...


I am thinking that what I am trying to address as 'Canker' is in fact something else...

I have been dosing at 120 Mgs a-day for Pigeons weighing normal weights ( what, 280 Grams on a good day? ) or less, much less even...and not getting it resolved.

I started a new Thread where I see you have posted a mention.


I wish I knew what to do, and what I was dealing with.

I did get some 'Doxycycline' in...but likely it is not appropriate for whatever this is anyway...


Thing is too...no matter what the caus of 'yellow' Urates had been in so many times passed, "Berimax" would clear them up.

I am so sad it is not anylonger being made and offered.




Thanks!


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> .....
> 
> Maybe you could just make a post which repesents the germain text which occurs 'at the end of the formulary' for the benifit of those who do not posess the document?
> 
> ...


Phil,

I'm sorry you are having a hard time of it. I know you have that page in
your possesion and thought you would understand things better by lookiing at it, that's all. For others who don't have it, there is more information there than they will ever need to see. If you think it is germain you are certainly 
free to post it.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp.



Many things which I used to have well organized in here have long since been hastily packed in mid ruin and wet, or just flat thrown away sopping and moulding, and or heaped disorganized into varioushasty cartons and so on, and hauled to storage to preserve them against the severely leaking roof which had ruined endless things in here before I was engauged to re-engineer the whole thing, and ruined a lot more before I got it all finished.

The inbetween time of the old roof being torn off, when it rained then as it did quite a bit unfortunately, did likely more ruin to endless Antique Books and antiques of all kinds, Cabinets full of reference materials for endless subjects, Maps, and lifetime collections of vintage textiles and god knows what all else, than the prior leaks every did.

If I say sincerely I do not have something at hand, I have no idea why you should continue to insist that I do.

Yes I own reference Books...

Yes I have things on Cee Dee, but not HERE...they are garbled in hastyt packings of getting things out OF here and into storage, and I had said so seveal times passed.

None the less, I have since last posting, consulted some particular Avian formularies others were kind enough to forward to me, and the Forumulies were just as totally useless and ambiguous and unclear as the worst mentions here have been.

At best, they are only very slightly 'better' than the wan lables 'Foys' or othes have on their stuff, as for dosing and use.


So...whatever you thought was "there", I have no idea.


At least I may say for myself, if someone asks me a straight question, I can and will give them a straight answer...and also I will give them whatever supporting explaination and details as possible untill I am confident they understand.


And maybe all the more so even, if I know they are harried and under duress and dealing with emergency.

And I have done so many times here for htings I know enough about to be useful.

I never once told anyone "Go look it up".

And I doubt I ever would say somehting like that, even to you if you were in a jam.


So anyway, yes, I consulted the "Formulary" and now I have seen it in all it's glory.


It solves absolutely nothing...and in no way cleared up what for me HAD been the ambiguity I was asking about.



Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Again, Phil, sorry you are having such a difficult time.

fp


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## Gracyperson (Jan 17, 2012)

dear i cannot found ridzole can i use metrondizole instead of ridzole


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Gracyperson said:


> dear i cannot found ridzole can i use metrondizole instead of ridzole


This post is from *2007*
Since I'm guessing this question is related to your other posts, please 
POST within your original post. (AS HAS ALREADY BEEN ASKED OF YOU)
Its pointless & confusing starting new posts or asking questions in old posts which are not really relevant to your situation and causes a lot of jumping back and forward, delaying responses.


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