# Pale vs. Dilute



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I always thought birds like Lucerne Gold Collars and Nuremberg Larks were pale. But from what I understand, Pale is hard to distinguish in blue and brown birds. Barely changes anything. Of course it is much more noticable on recessive reds and bronze, but that isn't what I'm getting at. Pale wouldn't effect the flights of these would they? But the flights are very lightly colored. So are these actually silvers? Or something else funky going on with the pale to make it so light? Is there Ice in Larks (notice their "gray" color is much lighter and the black pattern stands out much more)?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here are some reference pictures of the difference between recessive red, gold (pale RR), and recessive yellow (dilute RR). Also a picture of dilute on modena bronze.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/dilutepale.html


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Becky, After considering the info you presented I'm certain my "pales" are dilutes also, like you suggested. I also assumed the larks and lucernes were Pale. Wheres George???


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

As you can tell I don't have a clue about color, the bird in the second pic WOW very pretty.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> As you can tell I don't have a clue about color, the bird in the second pic WOW very pretty.
> Dave


I agree! I would love to have some Larks one day. Or at least see them in person!


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

The only pigeon show I've ever bean to is just for homers, I'm going to make it a point to go to a real show.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Same here! Well, other than county fairs or chicken shows that just happen to have some pigeons there too. Nothing big and fancy or affiliated with the NPA.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Well where to begin pale and dilute are found on the sex chromosome. we know that hens have only one sex chromosome, while cocks have two therefore for a cock to show pale he needs on both sex chromosomes. We have a probem seeing it. Therefore we could have pale in our loft and realy not know that it is there. This happend to me when I was racing I had red bars that were a bit lighter in their bars looked more orange. I even had a bird in a money race that I was asked about if it was a yellow. At the time I had no intrest in genetics, wish I had some of those birds now.Chances are that you will see it in the hens before you see it in the cocks as for the most part the cock will have it on one of his sex chromosomes, and he must carry it on both to show it. So If you have any red bars in your loft take a good look at them if the bars are lighter on some of the birds, you might have a bird carring pale. I would point out that we now have a third factor in the dilute family of genes (EXSTREAM DILUTE) this will be found on the sex chromosome. I am not a genetic expert so I do have a differcult time trying to explane these things.* GEORGE


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Picture 2 and 3 could be white flights i.m.o.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Picture 2 and 3 could be white flights i.m.o.


Nope, the Nuremberg larks definitely are not white flights. I have seen one or two on show, and there is definitely color in the flights.

I still think that the lucernes and larks are Ice, or some similar modifier, to give them the lightened ground effect. I cannot be sure about pale or dilute, but my guess is dilute. 

Isn't there a lark breeder here who could tell us about the down length of these breeds? That is probably the only sure fire way to distinguish pale from wild-type and from dilute.


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## mrottler (Jun 11, 2011)

Looks like dilute archangel bronze and ice wings. It wouldn't surprise me, as these are german field type pigeons.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

Hey Becky that picture of the gold collar was the reference pic for my painting  and all three of those birds are BEAUTIFUL i would love to see a homer marked like them wouldn't that be just awesome?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

horseart4u said:


> Hey Becky that picture of the gold collar was the reference pic for my painting  and all three of those birds are BEAUTIFUL i would love to see a homer marked like them wouldn't that be just awesome?


Yes it woud! Partially why I want to know the genetics behind them.  The other part is just curiosity.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes it woud! Partially why I want to know the genetics behind them.  The other part is just curiosity.


That is also why I am so interested in Gimpel and Ice. I love the color of these birds, but still like the look of a homer.

I want to breed good archangel bronze homers, with acceptable homer performance and perfect bronze black-wing color and sheen. I also want to breed ice homers, but haven't found clean legged ice pigeons in my area yet. Then when I have good bronze and good ice, I would like to combine the two and see if the color resembles these larks.

I would also love to breed frill stencil homers that have stencilling as seen in the blondinettes. But I guess that will have to wait until I have more space.


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