# very bad case of KNEMIDOKOPTES mite



## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Guys i need help. I have Crow with a very bad case of the above, last year, my vet did PTS case like this. I wanna try anything else , if there is anything else to try it, before PTS. Pigey, would the DMSO , be of any use in here, how to get rid of dead tissue around?? . He is already on injectable Baytril and first dose of IVERMECTIN, both topically and orally. Please any idea , preferably from people , which done it already and do have experience.

The pics of his feet:











Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

One more pic of it, at this point it is probably already bacterial, may fungal component to it, that is why he is on baytril. POX could originally open tissues for mites to go in, but that is beside the point at this moment.

Nell


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do the toes still articulate? And have you confirmed the presence of the Knemidocoptes? You realize, of course, that the most likely concurrent bacterial infections probably won't respond to Baytril--you might be better off with a tetracycline or something like that. If you're very careful of the dosage, you could mix up some DMSO with an appropriate liquid-based antibiotic. I don't think I'd try it over that wide of an area with a powder-based antibiotic.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you can get some lab done to demonstrate a fungal component, then you could also concurrently treat with an appropriate systemic antifungal.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi corvid,




Ohhhhh....how hideous.



I believe Mites themselves, when of a type who burrow or crawl into skin pores...can be suffocated by liberal applications of 'Neosporin' or any similar Vasolene-type balm-salve...if applications are kept on the effected parts for a few days.


Fungal or Baterial issues of course require their own deferences...but, could be evaluated subsequently to having dealt first with the probable/actual Mite infestation.


Dipping the Feet and Legs into, or brushing on, an appropriately portioned solution of 'Oxine' might aid in these latter two concerns...or, at least for the Fungal aspect.


Good luck with this..!



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In a deal like this, the medicine's got to get down inside the skin to about where the actual flesh is in order to do any good. It's the bird's inflammatory response that's damaging the skin and tissues.

Pidgey


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks guys for Your advise. Pigey , the only tetracycline i have today at my disposal is;
Panmycin Aquadrops
also i have (but in soluble powder):
Aureomycin (chlortetracycline
Terramycin (oxytetracycline HCL)
You probably prefer something else , ha?
And then , if I would have to get it different kind how would I decide on orall dose + topical??, should I minimazed the orall, because Im going to do also the topical?
Or do you mean stay on baytrill, but treat topically with tetracycline?
Thank You Phil, I will keep in mind Your advice.

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Pidgey, some toes do still articulate a bit only and depends from wich point.


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Also someone told me, that immersing the feet in oil, would help to brush off some of the dead tissue, some of it, i can just take off, but some do stay , cant pul them off, cause they are firmly attached and will bleed.
Cant understand, how oil would help ( as softening the dead tissue??)

Nell


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The oil was to kill any mites that might be alive. It would smother them but since you seem to think the mites are all dead, the oil wouldn't be necessary.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Is this poor bird even able to stand, Nell?
Bless his heart. It must be excruciating. 

Cindy


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi Cindy

She is sitting on those legs and moving around, but , yes I can imagine must be a painful thing for her. Right now I used DMSO gel with triple antibiotic on those legs and wrap them all around. I was able to remove a lot of this debris and in some places I can see hope, in preserved tissue. She is on Baytril, Dexametasone and tomorrow i m going to my vet. I will attempt to get thru this debris to anything healthy underneath. If we talking of case of very bad osteomyelitis at this point, then I will PTS her. Which case does brake my heart, cause she is so trustful , when I handle her , I can spend 30 minutes taking the stuff off and she is not stressed. She wants to live - period, and in cases like this I just hate doing this rehab thing anymore.How one can even explain to an animal, that is better for you to be put to sleep...

Thank You Cindy for carring. Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Also someone told me, that immersing the feet in oil, would help to brush off some of the dead tissue, some of it, i can just take off, but some do stay , cant pul them off, cause they are firmly attached and will bleed.
> Cant understand, how oil would help ( as softening the dead tissue??)
> 
> Nell




Hi Nell, 


Oils or 'Neosporin' or related can soften scabs or dessicated tissues, making debriding easier and safer...or lessening scaring or 'pullings' of tissues dessicating otherwise.



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank You Phil. Makes sens. I m going off for tonight.

Nell


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd give her a few weeks to see how it goes--sure wouldn't think about PTS for quite awhile if she's willing to put up with the care.

Pidgey


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Pidgey, Phil, Cindy; Thank You guys for being here...Up date on the Crow:
Went to vet next morning.
Her left leg was not so bad, no changes as far as bone and ankle. But her right leg had already osteomyelitis going on there. So vet said , that we were beyond anything we could do for her.Unfortunatly we had PTS the birdSorry for posting only today about it, had some birds in room here, there is no sitting on computer with them jumping in cages... 


Nell


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Next time (and I hope you never see that again), try suggesting treating an osteomyelitis with Clindamycin.

I'm sad for the little guy but I completely understand.

Pidgey


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Pidgey, talk to me....what you mean...would I reverse that proces in her leg ?? Would she be releasable?? Or what? cause I ask her about that and she said we are beyond that already cause the bone was gone....so how??? what you have on your mind??

Nell


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If the bone was gone then that's it. In osteomyelitis cases that aren't too advanced, you can sometimes stop them with Clindamycin--it's good for getting into bones.

Pidgey


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi corvid,

By chance, was there ever any of the scaly growth on your bird's face or beak?


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

nope....

Nell


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

There are a couple of things that suggest it may not be a mite infestation at all. The knemidokoptes mite usually attacks the beak and face of the bird as well as the feet and legs and it is contracted by physical contact with other birds. Is that a possibility with your crow?

A simple way to find out is to wrap about 4 inches of clear cellophane tape around the affected part of the leg for about 24 hours, unwrap and look carefully with a good magnifying glass. This is what you should be looking at:
http://hawaiiconservation.org/_library/documents/2008hcc/presentations/gaudioso-opt.pdf


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Saw a few of cases of it before, to know, what I m talking about.Physical contact between the birds is not enough exposure, that is why only a one or two birds in family groups of Crows are affected, instead all of them. 

Crows are more prone to the ones on feet, since they do get POX on their digits. To make problem worse Crows dig into the POX growth reopening them constantly, if they can get to them.Open wound of Pox becomes then an entry point for the mites to burrow into it.
Because Crows are VERY HARDY birds, they will succumb to that, only much later, when feet are already infected by secondary invaders, which are bacteria or fungus at that point. 

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,




So sorry...


I have never deal with this condition, nor anything similar.


I do feel that there are regimens which could remedy the syndrome...given that there seem to be more than one pathology going on - Fungal, Bateriological, and immunological-deficits or short-coming.

Localized Mites can be suffocated mechanically with about any benign Petroleum-based product such as Neosporin, applied subsequent to other topicals for the other issues.



In theory, I would think, special nutrients which support or nourish the Immune System...topical applications of various agents ( via DMSO) liable to stay or cease the fungal and bacteriological woes ( Oxine-AH, Antibiotics such as Pidgey mentiones, ) in areas not accessible to decent circulatory intervention...and systemic blood-borne medicines, along with supplimental heat...and by 'heat' I mean 110 degrees or so Farenheit, for the Feet and Legs.


Some while ago, I had a feral 'Dumpster Bird' who had terrible 'String Feet' problems...and was in terrible health generally...Toes and Feet and ankles were horribly sarred, deeply imbeded tiny synthetic filliments, fungal and baterial involvement, some Toes already lost.


Anyway...long story long...got all this tidied up...he grew robust, 'solid', heavy...strong...months later, he developed a huge Tumor on the worst Leg...Tumor was solid, firm, 'hard' and somewhat livid, and veined. He was not using that Leg anymore...hopping on te other Leg.


Went to Vet...Vet said the Leg has to go...no hope, Bone's infected, Bones on both sides of the joint are involved in Tumor-process, everything 'bad' Leg Wise...have to amputate.

We scheduled a surgery appointment for the following morning...and I brought the Pigeon home.


Well...I could not bring myself to make the appoinement...


I set up a heating pad, on 'high', thin towell on it, and set up so he had to stay on it...

I made some strong Teas using Barberry, Goldenseal, Sassafrass, Licorice, Echinicea, I forget what else...


This when cooled, I refrigerated, and this became his only drinking Water...diluted only somewhat, so it was 'strong' Tea...but, he liked it, so...


In four or five days, the Tumor shrank, shrivvelled, and was dark and wrinkled...this then both sluffed off and or was absorbed...and, the Leg was fine, Joint functioned fine, cirulation to foot was fine...and it looked as good as if no Tumor issue had ever happenned...new skin replaced the wrinkled shrivvelled area.



Possibly these rough outlines could also be tried for situations such as the one you were countinancing.


Raw Garlic orally, as part of the diet, I think would also be good.


Believe me, I know, three or four really 'critical' difficult Bird cases are just-about a Widow-Maker far as an individual's ability to deal with them time-and-trouble-wise, while watching everything else get neglected..!


But...


Just some thoughts...



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank You Phil I did wrote down those teas of yours..LOL
You better remember , what else was in there.......

Amazing about the PJ with the growth, ha??

If only I could get this Crow , much earlier, then I got her.........

But ..at that point, which , she came to my life..I guess..there was another reason for it..

I was hesitant to take her in, spent a minute or so, just watching her. But then I did remember about the cats and raccoons at night here, so I decided ...no..I will take her in, even if, just for letting her die in piece and warmth and with full stomach...She was good weight..cause my constant feeding them.
I dont even know at this point from where she came, did not saw her before.
But Crows know about the free food here , so they do come from different places, and some different flocks. I noticed, that some of sick ones from other flocks, will try and spend a nights here, if they cant have enough energy anymore to fly to rust. They just calculate with so much energy left, is better to stay around the food. That is how, I m getting so many Crows around here at fall and winter time. And then around January or so I may start getting some with Aspergillosis, just that time of the year..

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Thank You Phil I did wrote down those teas of
> yours..LOL
> You better remember , what else was in there.......




Hi Nell,



These Teas are very flexible...and ingredients used singly or in smaller combinations would certainly be good, also.

Definitely, specific combinations would be good for specific things.


I figure, a wide combination will provide a wide spetrum of potential benifits.


I have tried to find pratical Herbalists to ask and learn from, but without success.


The Herbal ingredients I use are simply all-round immune-system-aids and are generally cleansing, and have very high thresholds of tolerance where they will not dis-agree with a Bird...and or are reputed to various extents to be applicible to systemic infections or respiratory problems etc.


Raw finely minced Garlic would also be very good in various ways.


But would not be good in Teas flavor wise...aside from that it is best fresh and raw.



So, combining these several Herbs as I do, was something I got into doing decades ago for myself, if I was feeling like I was coming down with something, had got food poisoning, or whatever.


I should systematically try and research these individually on-the-web...as well as to find additional candidates.


Barberry and Goldenseal, if memory serve, are thought to be especially useful for virus as well as bacterial illness...as are Elderberry-extracts or the powdered dried Berrys steeped...Cranberry also...Goji Berry also of course.


I have tried these Teas also with early PPMV Pigeons, and, redcently, tried Vitamine 'D' in large doses for one...and, in these early PPMV situations, it is hard to tell if something helps prevent it getting worse, or, if the Pigeon as an individual was already at a plateau.

Recent early-phase PPMV Pigeon, I feel was helped by the Vitamin "D"...where for five days, he got one 400 IU Capsule a-day, down the gullet.


He also got a few days worth of Teas, as did some others.


He did not get 'worse' anyway...than he was on arrival...and actually, far as I can tell, he started improving very soon as for standing Head 'up' and not twisting as much...but again, not knowing how he'd have done with no Vitamin D, and no Teas, I can only try and feel a hunch as for whether these helped...and I feel they did help.



As for what else...ingredients...uhhhhhhhh...'Ginko'...'Kava-Kava', Valerian...and a little 
Ginger.


Ginger probably is a good one, but I have not tested their limits for standing it...and I did not want to risk spoiling the Batch should they reject it on account of too much Ginger flavor....since, as with Cooking or Baking, 'Ginger' is fairly strong and can dominate a dish unpleasantly if one is heavy-handed with it.


These all as fine powders...


'Steep' ( no boil but sub-boil, ) for a day or two in hot, purified ( non-tap )
Water...an amply heaping Tablespoon of each into a half Gallon of 
Water...I use a 'Crock-Pot' set to 'low'...probably I doubled-up on the 
Barberry and Golden Seal...but used only scant half-a-Tablespoon of powdered Ginger...

Resulant Tea is pretty strong...'earthy' tasting...so it gets watered down however far, two-to-one, three-to-one, four-to-one, to where the Bird will drink it.


'Stevia' could also be used to sweeten it, being a very 'sweet' Herb, it would not effect their system in various adverse ways which 'sugar' can.


Everyone always liked the Teas...and some individuals were fine with stronger versions, others prefered more watered down ones...so individual Birds thresholds of abiding how strong it is will vary.





> Amazing about the PJ with the growth, ha??




Well...whether the Tea did it...helped him do it, or was incidental...I could 
not say for sure.

But...four days or so on the Tea, and he'd beat the thing...however so...

It shrivveled, got dark and wrinkely, and ust went away completely from there...and he was standing-walking again by day four or five.


I'd prayed for him also, but I do not feel very able at prayer though...wish I 
was...





> If only I could get this Crow , much earlier, then I got her.........



Oh yeah...

Oye...






> But ..at that point, which , she came to my life..I guess..there was another
> reason for it..
> 
> I was hesitant to take her in, spent a minute or so, just watching her. But
> ...




Makes sense...


I know Birds are capable of truely marvelous, surprising recoveries...


How to aid, support or set up conditions for such to happen, are the real questions of course.


Benificient gentle Botanical-Herbal materials I feel have definite promise as ajuncts to medicinal regimines, or by themselves.


Leg conditions such as yours had, could possibly benifit from topical applications of Warm raw Honey.


This would both suffocate Mites, and stay whatever Bacteria it contacts.


Fungus might not be stayed or eliminated by it...but I dunno...one would have to try and see.


There can be medicine and Herbal-Botanical combinations one should avoid of course.


But...none I was able to find which concerned the ingredients I use.



The oral adminstered Grapefruit Seed Extracts should not be used with usual Blood Pressure Medicines, since their presence in the patient's system can delay metabolization-excretion-elimination of the Blood Pressure meds, causing over-dose, in effect.



Nourishing the Bird's System and immune system, lots of Antioxidants and 'cleansing' foods 
( certain fruit concentrates, Goji-Berrys...) can not hurt...even if it is a Raptor, 
and an Omnivore of course is also fine...larger Birds able to eat, can be fed bites of fresh wholesome cleansing Fruits directly.


Lots of the ones I get are so far 'gone' already...usually there's not much 
time to get on a right track...



Ever notice how FAST some sick or injured Birds go into full Rigour Mortise when they die?


This is a sign of how toxic-uncleansed their system and musculature is...


A Healthy Bird, if killed in accident say, remains limp for many hours.


So, I feel that things which aid the Bird's system in cleansing, will aid in their system's resourses being freed up, less burdoned with permiating toxins, so whatever Meds we are using will work better, as well as having less general compromise.


"Heat" is potentially a very valuable aid sometimes, in allowing their own 
system to do better...


Sometimes I just keep the little Bathroom here at a steady 110 - 
112 degrees...

114 uphigh...112 elbow high...110 knee high...106 on the floor...




Possibly, even as 'fevers' would...this can allow them to beat infections, 
and or to slow the replications of infectious organisms, so their own system 
can overtake them.


This and meds, and whatever else...


Generally...


If they are panting, then I figure they are too hot, so I cool it down a little.



Rambley...



Phil
l v


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im sorry the crow did not make it....but I found this case very interesting and learned alot from it.......now if I could only memorize everthing I read


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## penname (Jul 28, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Nell,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow! What an informative post! The warm raw honey makes so much sense. Thank you for this wealth of info!


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