# New Loft/Floor question



## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey everybody,

So we're finally getting started on the new loft this weekend!

It's going to be on my deck so we're putting a floor on it.
Question - 

*Does/Should the floor be treated or left unfinished?*

I plan to scrape daily, so what's the best plan for the interior loft floor?
If I should pre-treat it with some kind of finish or water-proofing, can you tell me what to use? Thanks!!

I'm attaching a pic of our design - it's 4' W x 8' L x 6' H.
The windows along the front will have 1/4" hardware cloth on the inside with fine (window) screen on the outside. We're making 2 wood panels hinged at the base of the windows so they can be closed up at night or in cold weather. The screen/hardware cloth window along the top of the back wall will have two hinged wood panels that can close on the inside. The windows on either side of the loft are going to be glass or plexi. 

There will be 8 nest boxes, raised up off the floor to allow a hidey spot for misplaced squeakers. 


I would love some feedback! We are headed to home depot tomorrow! Yay!
Thanks!

Kari Jo


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## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

Looks good, im not sure about the floor though.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

karijo said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> So we're finally getting started on the new loft this weekend!
> 
> ...


That's a nice design you have for your loft...I want to see the pics when you guys are done...Love to see pics of members loft...

I suggest using a plywood (smooth finish ¾") that's easy for you to scrape...Honestly my floor use to be thin plywood about ⅛ of an inch but I change that quick since my loft is open on the front and in the back with galvanized screen so the water/rain gets in it and soak the floor...

Are you going to have an aviary on the front?


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

No separate aviary, we decided to go with the closeable screen windows on the back and front to allow sunlight in so I wouldn't need a separate aviary. Also, Brooklyn flies free outside, and I honestly am hoping the other birds can be trained to have the same freedom.

I know many do not let their birds fly, and I do understand the risks - but it's my preference that those birds that _can_ learn to fly free and return to the loft (like Brook), be permitted to do so.

Thanks so much for the floor info - so no additional treatment on the floor is required?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Very nice, will work well for your area. Make sure that you get exterior
grade plywood, I'd use 5/8's to 3/4, but that's me. 
Please do post pictures.

No painting is necessary and it's probably easier w/out.

fp


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks!! Knew I could count on ya for answers!

Now if you have nothing better to do on Sunday and want to have a few laughs - stop by in the afternoon while we are _building_.

LOL


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

You may want to check out putting down Luuan on the floor. It is the plywood product they use on those cheap interior doors. It is cheap, very smooth and water resistant. It is about $9 for a 4X8 sheet down here. Any of the building supply places (Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) carries it.

Dan


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I would reconsider the aviary. Without one, your birds can't lay in the sun, or take a bath in the rain, both of which they love to do. I really think an aviary is very important.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

My birds would probably enjoy bathing in the rain if they hadn't already all figured out that the shower provides hot water!!

As for sunbathing, we designed the windows of the coop to coincide with the sun that hits my deck on a daily basis, year round. The windows are screen, allowing the full spectrum of UVA/UVB in, and there are perching areas at each window to allow the birds full sun exposure at their leisure. At night and when it's chilly, the individual windows will have hinged panels that be closed.

My deck is not huge, and I really wanted to maximize the space I had available for the loft and felt this was the best way to go after much deliberation. If the birds have full access to sun during daylight hours, what's the need for a separate aviary?

Thanks so much for the input!!


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

That's a rather small loft. How many birds are you planning to keep? One tip that you should consider is to have a seperate section for breeders and unmated birds. Unmated birds tend to disrupt the breeders' habits.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

trust Renee you cant go wrong with an avairy the birds will benefit and love it more then you will ever know ... just cuz you think you have all your basis covered it doesnt mean you do.. pigeons love their time in the great wide open (meaning in the rain and full exposure to the sun )


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## Granrey (Dec 31, 2008)

karijo said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> So we're finally getting started on the new loft this weekend!
> 
> ...


Very interesting design. It looks really nice.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Kal-El said:


> That's a rather small loft. How many birds are you planning to keep? One tip that you should consider is to have a seperate section for breeders and unmated birds. Unmated birds tend to disrupt the breeders' habits.



It's as big as I have room for.

Right now it will just be for Brooklyn and Sylvie, and maybe Friedman. If he starts behaving himself.

I am also planning on getting a pair of Seraphim from Anne (she's holding a pair for me) once the loft is done. 

Other than that, I don't know. I'd like a pair of ancients. That's probably it.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

LokotaLoft said:


> trust Renee you cant go wrong with an avairy the birds will benefit and love it more then you will ever know ... just cuz you think you have all your basis covered it doesnt mean you do.. pigeons love their time in the great wide open (meaning in the rain and full exposure to the sun )


Again, pardon my inexperience, but if the loft _does_ provide full exposure to the sun, how is an attached aviary any different? 

As for getting wet in the rain - Brooklyn hates the rain. He simply won't go out in it. Running shower? You can't keep him out.
Once the newer birds are trained, I have no problem letting them out to play in the rain if that's what they choose to do.

In the future, if I decide to add an aviary, it's easy enough to turn a window or two into an extended wire box or opening into an aviary.

So many people use that starter lost on redroselofts. I feel like this as suitable as that design for a person starting with just a few pigeons. 

Though this is my first proper loft, remember I have tame birds who spend hours in the house, hours outdoors, shower in the bathroom, snuggle with my dogs, chill in the bookshelf, etc. I don't have "loft bird" personalities, and any new birds I get will go through a 2 month quarantine in the house before going to the loft, lots of attention and daily handling. That's how I got Sylvie so tame so quickly. Even Friedman, in spite of himself.

I plan to use wooden eggs to slow breeding and will sell any babies. I'm not planning at this point in time to have 50 pigeons.  I wish I could! Basically this loft is providing my birds a place to hang out during the day, safe from predators, sleep at night (instead of the bookshelf, or in Brook's case - my BED!), and a place to all be together pooping merrily without me running around with a tissue after their butts.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you could always jut out the window part that is facing the sun to make the aviary, like a loft or over hang and use hard wire cloth with out a roof so they can get full open air...I would not use screen in a loft, it would get dusty and full of feathers and the toe nails can get caught in the small screen holes...I would use the hardware cloth instead...cute design though. the aviary would be like a shelf enclosed with the wire or hardware cloth...I don't know if that makes sense,wish I could have a pic to share


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

karijo said:


> Again, pardon my inexperience, but if the loft _does_ provide full exposure to the sun, how is an attached aviary any different?


 well if i came across snotty in anyway in my post I surely didnt mean to , i was just talking from experiance with my birds being that the front of my coop is more open then yours ,wired doors down to the floor and on any given day come rain or shine do you know where you can find my birds sitting ?? thats right out in the fly pen on their sides wings stretched way out catching rays of sunshine or raindrops on rainy days , it really doesnt matter to me but it seems to to my birds  Plus its a much better place to give them their baths as the floor of the coop wont get wet and the avairy doesnt have to be huge either just big enuf to stretch their wings


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> well if i came across snotty in anyway in my post I surely didnt mean to , i was just talking from experiance with my birds being that the front of my coop is more open then yours ,wired doors down to the floor and on any given day come rain or shine do you know where you can find my birds sitting ?? thats right out in the fly pen on their sides wings stretched way out catching rays of sunshine or raindrops on rainy days , it really doesnt matter to me but it seems to to my birds  Plus its a much better place to give them their baths as the floor of the coop wont get wet and the avairy doesnt have to be huge either just big enuf to stretch their wings


Thats a great point Lokotaloft, when you give them their bath pan, you would have a spot to put it where the loft would not get wet...and that is very important....I don't think it would be too hard to twick the design a bit to allow for an aviary...it's one of those things that you will wish you did in the long run....


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

No you didn't at all! 

Like I said, this is my first loft so that's why I posted - I know about keeping pigeons indoors, and parrots in outdoor aviaries, and letting birds have free indoor/outdoor access, but the loft thing is 100% new to me. So I am relying on the experience of others to make certain I don't make mistakes that could have been easily avoided.

The design I have now came about as the result of talking to a number of different hobbyists - from the racing and fancy branches. I took all their ideas (and sketches drawn on napkins or show fliers, LOL), and we came up with this design. Trying to incorporate everything, but keeping in mind my limited space and flock size. (and our climate)

My asking is simply because I really do want to understand what the pidgies need and like, and you all definitely have the experience!

I really appreciate all the advice and guidance! I'll talk to my friend and see if we can at least add a small extended box somewhere that's all wire. One of the other reasons we opted against it was because of the dogs - they would hang out under it like a Poop Buffet. But we could add a tray and such. 

I wasn't planning on letting any bathing happen in the loft, because I didn't want the floor to get wet. Presently I let them use the shower at their discretion 3 times a week. Seems like they all like to go in about once a week. Is that enough? (Brooklyn has access to it daily, but he usually chooses to bathe between 1 to 3 times a week. What's normal?)

(Oh - a note about the screening - we are only using it on the outside, 1/4" hardware cloth on the inside. There will be space between so as to prevent nails from getting in contact with it. I was worried about bugs getting into the loft and this was suggested to me by another loft keeper.)

OK, well wish us luck!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

karijo said:


> No you didn't at all!
> 
> Like I said, this is my first loft so that's why I posted - I know about keeping pigeons indoors, and parrots in outdoor aviaries, and letting birds have free indoor/outdoor access, but the loft thing is 100% new to me. So I am relying on the experience of others to make certain I don't make mistakes that could have been easily avoided.
> 
> ...


about the screen, your going to hate it...pigeons have so much dander dust or scuff come off of them and when they moult it will be so hard to clean, everthing will get stuck on it, I would opt out of it all together...as far as the bathing, mine like to soak in their tub, they can't do that in the shower and it would be so easy to put in the aviary where they would lay in the sun when they are done.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

Just so you know I love your loft design its beautiful ,I wouldnt change a thing but if you can add the little avairy Im sure your birds will love it too  Now as for parrots well I have two right here if you want them lol


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks! 

But after 18 years of rescue, rehab, and behavioral work... I think I'm through with parrots. I adore the pigeons, and do not miss the squawking, screeching, and hollering of the parrots (and I have had _all_ kinds - eclectus, macaws, cockatoos, conures, caiques, lories, parrotlets, parakeets, amazons, vasas, mynahs, toucanettes, toucans, quakers, you name it.) one bit. Nooooo thank you. I truly think pigeons are a far more enjoyable companion, they are so much more easy going. I do not miss cooking for the parrots three times a day either!!! (The eclectus were my favorite, but also by far the most work. oi vey)


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> about the screen, your going to hate it...pigeons have so much dander dust or scuff come off of them and when they moult it will be so hard to clean, everthing will get stuck on it, I would opt out of it all together...as far as the bathing, mine like to soak in their tub, they can't do that in the shower and it would be so easy to put in the aviary where they would lay in the sun when they are done.


Really? OK. I guess we don't really have mosquitoes - I just wanted the birds to be safe, and it's how I had my aviary in NY for my parrots. But yeah, I guess pigeons make more dander.

When I run the shower I actually do have a few inches of warm water in the tub. I put the stopper in and sit by the tub (well, OK, with Brooklyn I am _in_ the shower and he just waits until all the soap is gone and then he hops in at the end for a 10 minute shower and bath) to monitor the water depth while the water runs (and I drain and refill if somebody poops). I have one of those large diameter rain head showers - so the water fall is gentle. The birds usually start at the end of the tub that's out of the shower fall, to hunker into the water and splash about, then move under it to get their pits. Once a month I do the bath salts.

Sometimes the birds like to hop in the sink after I've done the dishes or something. Or I see someone hanging around the sink so I turn it on and let it fill a few inches and they hop in, and I use the spray nozzle to assist in wingpit cleaning when they hold their wing up for me.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

karijo said:


> Really? OK. I guess we don't really have mosquitoes - I just wanted the birds to be safe, and it's how I had my aviary in NY for my parrots. But yeah, I guess pigeons make more dander.
> 
> When I run the shower I actually do have a few inches of warm water in the tub. I put the stopper in and sit by the tub (well, OK, with Brooklyn I am _in_ the shower and he just waits until all the soap is gone and then he hops in at the end for a 10 minute shower and bath) to monitor the water depth while the water runs (and I drain and refill if somebody poops). I have one of those large diameter rain head showers - so the water fall is gentle. The birds usually start at the end of the tub that's out of the shower fall, to hunker into the water and splash about, then move under it to get their pits. Once a month I do the bath salts.
> 
> Sometimes the birds like to hop in the sink after I've done the dishes or something. Or I see someone hanging around the sink so I turn it on and let it fill a few inches and they hop in, and I use the spray nozzle to assist in wingpit cleaning when they hold their wing up for me.


well that sounds too cute, I would still do that ritual with them, but in summer they will love it in their aviary too, as they lay in the sun after a good soak...


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> well that sounds too cute, I would still do that ritual with them, but in summer they will love it in their aviary too, as they lay in the sun after a good soak...


fo sho  just think of it as a day at the beach for a woman lol women and beaches go hand in hand and so do pigeons and avairys lol


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

were I you, I would reconsider using both the hardware cloth and the window screen, particularly if the they are both attatched directly to the wood. Will be a devil to clean, and window screen clogs with pigeon dust in a matter of days. I would use just 1/4 hardware clothe.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

LokotaLoft said:


> fo sho  just think of it as a day at the beach for a woman lol women and beaches go hand in hand and so do pigeons and avairys lol


i've seen jaws wayyyy too many times to ever step foot on any beach thank you very much. LOL


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2009)

karijo said:


> i've seen jaws wayyyy too many times to ever step foot on any beach thank you very much. LOL


lol Karijo what I ment was in common with the women on the beach under the sun tanning and not in the water so no sharks would be involved hehe


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

har!! have you not _seen_ my photos? i'm about as pale as they come!! LOL

(even when I was growing up in Miami, people always asked me, "And where are _you_ from?"!!! I was the black haired, pale-skinned squirt in a classroom full of tan blondes... and this was in the 2nd grade. LOL!!!)



Ah well... as for the new loft, we got the floor foundation done today, and all the panels stained. Tomorrow we build the skeleton with the studs and _hopefully_ get the walls up. I doubt we'll get to the roof but who knows. Then it's off to Grand Nationals! I'm hoping to get it finished by the end of this weekend when I return! I'll put up pics tomorrow. I really am glad I decided to go with the 4' x 8' x 6' H size, I think it will be perfect for my small flock!


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2009)

Karijo my first loft ever was a 4'x 8' loft and I had very good success with it, my advice for your roof would be to use that 3' roll roofing not the the shingles making it that much easier to cover it faster  now as for those tanned blondes from the beach, well I never understood how they could lay in that heat like that all day long anyways lol  hope you have a great time at the nationals


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

thanks!! i can't wait to get to the show!!

for the roof we bought that black roof paper stuff to put down first and then a pack of that shingle stuff, where it's like a sheet with a few shingles cut into it and you layer it... like all my technical terms? can you tell i don't know what the heck i'm talking about?? good thing my friend knows what we're doing. he just points and tells me what to do and i do it. it's going to be really beautiful!! he keeps calling it the Taj MaLoft. heh


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

karijo said:


> thanks!! i can't wait to get to the show!!
> 
> for the roof we bought that black roof paper stuff to put down first and then a pack of that shingle stuff, where it's like a sheet with a few shingles cut into it and you layer it... like all my technical terms? can you tell i don't know what the heck i'm talking about?? good thing my friend knows what we're doing. *he just points and tells me what to do and i do it. *it's going to be really beautiful!! he keeps calling it the Taj MaLoft. heh


LOL........that's exactly how OUR lofts got built!!


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

OK, we're still plodding along here, but the floor is done, and front and back walls are up! It's starting to look like a loft and the dogs seem to like it, LOL. Here's a few pics:
(more if you click on the album in my profile)



















The dogs approve!


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Getting there so far...The dogs want it to themselves or maybe begging you to make a dog house for them too...They probably saying to you with those looks , "make a doggie house for us too after the loft, please"...


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah, Ha. Guess what? They're chihuahuas. They believe the whole house is their house!!!

I am but a lowly servant to their royal highnesses.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

It is so nice to see and walk on the floor before the birds starts pooping on them......Get your scrapers ready coz you're going to need it lol...


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2009)

Nice looking loft. Hope to see more pictures when it is completed.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Can't wait to see the finished loft. I like the design. What kind of trapping are you going to use?


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Trapping system? Gonna stand on the deck, waving my arms about madly yelling "GET YOUR BUTTS BACK HERE!!" at the top of my lungs... 

hehehe

Actually, no trapping system. Do you think I should add one? I thought I only needed that for homers - no? 

Brook is trained to come when you call him, so I am using him to help me train Sylvie, the Old Classic Frill hen - as she follows him everywhere. So when he comes, she follows, and they both get a safflower seed or a piece of peanut. (Or sometimes Brook just wants smooshy kisses LOL) Friedman apparently doesn't need to be trained because he just chases after me on foot naturally... using his charming killer instinct. peck peck pinch pinch... *grumble* 

Though we're putting in 8 nest boxes, I was hoping to put 6 pairs in the loft, mostly tiny breed tumblers (ancients, moorhead, berliner), Brook and Sylvie. 
Will this loft be big enough? We are going to put fronts on 6 of the boxes, leaving 2 open at the bottom for rumpus and rabble rousing or whatever. Then V perches and a few shelves for perching.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

karijo said:


> Trapping system? Gonna stand on the deck, waving my arms about madly yelling "GET YOUR BUTTS BACK HERE!!" at the top of my lungs...
> 
> hehehe


OK, Karijo! Call 911 for me as I am about to expire here from laughing so hard! Great answer!  I have no clue as to whether you need a trapping system or not and will leave that to the experts. Your dogs are darling BTW!

Terry


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

hehehehhe thanks!! they're my flock guardians. Lucky (the yellow one) LOVES Brook and seems to think he is responsible for _all_ the pigeons. especially when there's a baby - he gets very protective of squabbies. Terrible Brook loves to torment Tobbs (the other freeloader there), it's really cute. He just stomps around after him pinching his bottom, trying to get him to play with him or something. Poor Toby.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Glad to see everything is coming along Karijo! Your loft design is coming to life! You must be really excited....keep us posted with the awesome pictures!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I may have missed something. LOL! So you are keeping only fancy breed? I don't have a trapping system in my homer loft right now. I just call them in with a whistle (open door). I took out my bob trap, flap trap and my drop trap. I am currently making a very small sputniks trap. Basically I want my birds to trap very fast because it saved their asses off after hawk attack. Many times they trapped so fast they almost crash landed on their heads after being pursued by a hawk. My resident hawk is the best trap trainer!


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Yep, just fancies. And _Friedman_. Maybe I'll install a trap and see if I can train them to use it then. I was worried about a roof rat using it to sneak in for Buffet Dining or Rodeo Style Pigeon Wrangling... 

I've only seen one hawk, 2 years ago. We have a mess of Jays in the back yard that keep owls and everybody else out of the yard. Plus, I think they mostly hang out down by the lake nearby because it's also a bird sanctuary - _FILLED_ with pigeons. It's fast food for hawks... Pigeon King... Mc Pidgies... Anyways if I see any hawks I'll just hurl a few dogs in the air at them. Build some kind of chihuahua sling-shot... pew! pew! pew! 

By the way, I'd like to announce that Friedman (my blue buda) is on drugs. I'm sure of it. He was _nice_ to me today. Hopped right onto my hand and rode around like a little Mister So and So. I'm sending him to a rehab clinic...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

karijo said:


> Yep, just fancies. And _Friedman_. Maybe I'll install a trap and see if I can train them to use it then. I was worried about a roof rat using it to sneak in for Buffet Dining or Rodeo Style Pigeon Wrangling...
> 
> I've only seen one hawk, 2 years ago. We have a mess of Jays in the back yard that keep owls and everybody else out of the yard. Plus, I think they mostly hang out down by the lake nearby because it's also a bird sanctuary - _FILLED_ with pigeons. It's fast food for hawks... Pigeon King... Mc Pidgies... Anyways if I see any hawks I'll just hurl a few dogs in the air at them. Build some kind of chihuahua sling-shot... pew! pew! pew!
> 
> By the way, I'd like to announce that Friedman (my blue buda) is on drugs. I'm sure of it. He was _nice_ to me today. Hopped right onto my hand and rode around like a little Mister So and So. I'm sending him to a rehab clinic...


The hawks are a real danger, esp for fancy birds, you can and may lose a bird that way.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Oi vey...

OK, so we're at a standstill right now because of the roof. I don't like the way my friend has designed the roof (I think it's too heavy and not well supported), and _he_ has issue with it because he made the loft a little taller (plus it's up on concrete blocks) so he's worried about getting it up there...

Up till now we have been graced with good weather. Well, Daniel went away until Saturday night, leaving the loft roofless and all kinds of wood, tools and stuff all over my deck and _of course_ the rain came yesterday. 

So I got a tarp and some twine, and raced home to cover the thing. Thought all was good (got everything inside the loft to protect it from rain, lugged the giant roof he started over to the wall of the house to try and keep it a little protected).

Woke up this morning and saw a HUGE puddle of water had pooled in the center of the tarp and was hanging inside the loft!! Of course I'm dressed really nice for work, and I'm in there frantically trying to push the puddle up and over the back side of the loft. 

As you can imagine, the water ended up crashing inside the loft with much gusto... and poor me like a little drenched rat.

I felt like I was in a Benny Hill episode, I swear.

*sigh*

Soooo, I used a mop and pushed all the water out the door, dried it as best I could (working around all the wood and tools I'd put inside it!), adjusted the tarp and weighted the back down with empty varnish cans filled with water. I leaned some 2x4's under the tarp and placed some pieces of plywood across the 2x4's to try and prevent any dips where the water could pool up again.

That was a few hours ago, it's been raining all morning and I am dreading going home at 4 to see whether or not my contraption has worked/held up.

In the meantime I've emailed some roofers. Hopefully I can get some help on this before Daniel's return! So frustrating.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

karijo said:


> Oi vey...
> 
> OK, so we're at a standstill right now because of the roof. I don't like the way my friend has designed the roof (I think it's too heavy and not well supported), and _he_ has issue with it because he made the loft a little taller (plus it's up on concrete blocks) so he's worried about getting it up there...
> 
> ...


...lol....I bet you will be glad when it is done.....


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

I will sleep inside it myself at this point!!!

I have a carpenter/roofer coming today to take a look. I managed to intrigue him with the project and he wants to help me with the roof for "minimal cost" - I will find out what that means soon enough. I _think_ Daniel would be thrilled to show up here Sunday to find that he no longer has to worry about the roof and can instead starting worrying about building my dang nestboxes and other interior goodies while I work on putting up the hardware cloth.

hehe


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Some more pics up! We got a little further today. Roof's up. Roofer guy came by and was SO nice, went over everything and gave it a big thumb's up. Gave us instruction on finishing it up - no charge! He was great.

So, we've got a ways to go still, but the end is in sight finally...

What's next?: finish staining, complete outer woodwork, get the hardware cloth and screen up, interior trim around the windows, build the nest boxes, install the skylight, finish off the wood panels that get locked into place over the windows outside at night and/or when it's chilly.

I think we've only got one more trip to HomeDepot for the nest box wood/materials. Are there plans anywhere on building a rack of nestboxes, 2 across and 4 high? I already have the nestbox fronts from Foy's that are 12 x 24. 

there's also a skylight now, i'm going to Tap Plastics tomorrow hopefully to get the plexi cut. Neat way we fixed the roof needing to be larger than the 4 x 8 loft. hehe








we went with a "moon window" in the back there, instead of having it a totally open window, for more structural support. the piece we cut out gets popped back in place from the outside and locked into place when it's chilly.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Wow!!! We got SO much done this afternoon!!! The skylight is in, roof is painted, front windows have 1/2" hardware cloth and screen (to keep out mosquitoes, pigeon flies, whathaveyou), we finished staining everything... This Sunday we will finish the two side windows (the little one by the door will be plexi, the opposite side is wire and screen), figure out how we are closing up the moon window in the back wall (plexi or wire/screen), and hopefully get the nest boxes built and perches, shelves, etc installed. 

Tomorrow afternoon I have to put another coat of paint on the roof and stain the wooden panels that will be used to close up the windows when it's cold or rainy. The one for the side window will be hinged on, and the front panels will be stored behind the loft until needed. We are planning on adding a small sunning pen off that side window in the future, but in the meantime there will be a shelf along the front where the sun comes in for the pidgies to sun bathe on.

All the pics:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=70914&l=794c3&id=719451408


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, may I ask why you didn't make a vent from the lower front? I've noticed that when I put a vent on the lower front area of my loft, the poops dry faster. Just an opinion.

Here is an example:
http://www.rvwoodcraft.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_31&products_id=328


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

oh sure...

*now* you tell me!


well, we have to make a final trip to Home Depot on Sunday morning to get wood for the nest boxes... I saw some vents with screen behind them, I can ask my friend if he thinks we can easily cut an opening in to bottom and get a vent in there...._ rassa frazza...._

where's the love and support. where's the "hey! nice loft!" hehe


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

LOL! My bad! Your loft is indeed beautiful. I committed the same "mistake." I was waiting for you to figure it out so I was keeping my mouth quiet. Then I realized maybe you haven't figured it out yet so I opened my mouth. Obviously putting a lower vent is just my opinion. I was just sharing my experience. I think air dried poop dries faster.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

That little loft is way cute, as far as the venting on the bottom, I don't see it to be necessary, you have so much open areas for ventilation, it is coverd so the poops and loft floor should stay dry enough, but im not an expert on these matters, JMO.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Wow......you've got quite the nifty little loft going on there. Very well done.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

karijo said:


> where's the love and support. where's the "hey! nice loft!" hehe


We love your loft...I think it is a great home for your birds...Also "hey! nice loft"...Now this is from me... Get the loft done and bring out the birds,  they are so excited to fly in it, lol...Don't forget to take some pics soon...


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

LOL OK OK, thank you. I feel much better now!!

I really love it, it came out even better than I hoped. The best part is it's just feet from my glass kitchen door, so I can sit at the table in the morning and gaze out onto the deck at it! 


I really hope we get it DONE Sunday so I can get these dang birds out of the house already! Though, there's something to be said for running a 2+ month indoor quarantine, it really gives you time to work with each new bird on an super intensive individual basis. All my birds are so incredibly tame now - they all will hop on my hand or sit in my lap for cuddling, and they are totally used to the dogs. I'm definitely going to keep it up with all my new birds. It just makes them super acclimated to being around people when they spend so much time in the house.

So many new arrivals coming in the next week:
Heartbacked Buda hen (for Friedman, instead of a Vienna Gansel)
Ancient Tumblers (red and white pair)
Black Ancient hen!! Need to find her a cockbird...
red Shakhsharli hen - gonna try her out with Brook since he is not interested in the Frill hen - hrmph!!

I'm hoping to get my Berliners in a week or two as well.

Oi... I already want a bigger loft... *cry*


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

WOW

That is looking really good. Keep up the great work!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Karijo.............got a couple of questions that I could probably find the answer to if I looked hard enough.......but this is easier (for me anyway)
How many birds do you have now? How many more are you planning on getting? Don't you have some birds on eggs? There's SO many here with eggs and babies I can't keep it all straight. I've got a reason for asking these questions.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Renee!
So, my new loft has 8 available nestboxes... 
I'm making sure I have enough fosters for my SF breeds who are unable to raise young (Budas, Berliners, Ancients).
I'm also going to use dummy eggs to slow breeding down so my fosters don't get overwhelmed. 

OK, here is the rundown on current and pending pigeons!
(the numbers indicate what nestbox they will be in)

Current:
1. Brooklyn (feral BB cockbird)
2. Sylvie (COF hen)
3. Friedman (buda/vienna gansel cockbird)

Leaving:
Grizzle and Stork Budas (they're Daryl's, laid the one egg, will check if its fertile monday. If it is, they'll stay in the house until I take over handfeeding the baby, if it's not fertile they will ship out next week to Terry in SoCal until Daryl can take them. Confused yet? LOL)

Arriving soon:
3. Buda hen (for Friedman)
1. Shakhsharli hen (for Brooklyn)
4. four Ancient Tumblers (1 cockbird, 3 hens - I'm only keeping the cockbird and 1 hen)

Arriving slightly later than soon, LOL:
5. Lahore pair (I will breed these, but can also sub in as fosters)
6. Berliner Tumbler pair
2. COF cockbird (for Sylvie, can feed young, will be fosters)

That's 6 pairs total, with two extra empty nest boxes which can house young birds until they are sold.

I hope all that made some sense! I asked a bunch of different folk if my loft was big enough for three regular sized pairs and three small sized pairs, 12 total birds, and was told I was OK. Do you think it sounds alright?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OK. Yea that sounds ok. It just sounded like, from reading the different posts at different times that you were going to have a load of birds.......LOL
You should be able to keep 12 birds pretty easily as long as they all get along ok.
I would suggest that you try assigning nest boxes to whoever you want, where ever you want them. And keep ALL extra boxes closed. If you don't, some of your cock birds will take two boxes and you'll have a really hard time putting any new birds in there. If you're going to put YB's in two of the boxes, make those two boxes the bottom ones........sometimes birds in the lowest box try to take over the floor...........and that's a real pain.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

I definitely have some madness going on right now, but it's calculated madness, I swear.
LOL!!

(most of my problems stem from finding a bird I want, but the breeder insisting on selling it as part of a group. so I end up with extra birds I have to sell off)

Thanks for the advice on the nest box arranging. It's what I was planning on - I figured on locking the cockbirds up in the assigned boxes for a week or two, then adding the hens. I will indeed keep the bottom two closed up so nobody thinks they suddenly get a Duplex. 

The bottom two nest boxes will also be about 9" up from the loft floor (and we are putting a lip on the top of the "crawlspace" to make the opening only about 5" tall. I was told to have a hiding place on the floor in case squabs leap out of a nest box too ealry, so they can escape from adults), I thought that would help prevent anybody from thinking they own the floor?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You don't really need to lock them up for a week or two........a few days at the most.
Put their feed in the box. If you want to use a feeder in the floor later, that will be fine, but if the only place for each bird to find food is in THEIR box.....things will go a lot smoother.
Another piece of advice.........while you're getting the cocks to take a box, take down the perches. FORCE them to either sleep in/on a box or the floor. They'll get the message. 
Lock them in their box and after a hour or so, turn one loose. When he returns to his box, lock him back up and turn another loose.....then you can go to turning 2 loose at a time. Sounds like a lot of work, but it's much less confusion and fighting for the birds.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Renee, thank you!
This really helps!

I bought the clip on V perches so they can easily be removed during this "training".

Also, I bought these really nice small clip-on nest box dishes for each box - you screw the plastic bar to the inside wall of the box and two dishes snap into place. I thought it would be nice for them during the box assigning, and afterwards I could use them to offer small qtys of the uber-expensive Harrison's pellets separate from regular trough feedings (so they are not wasted)... I thought it would also be good of somebody has to be confined to be medicated or something, they will have thier own food and water.

I'm excited to get everyone moved in to the loft!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

karijo said:


> Renee, thank you!
> This really helps!
> 
> 
> ...


Glad to help. Some people think I make things harder than they should be, but for me, it's all about the birds being comfortable and going through any transitions as smoothly as possible. I've done things the "hard" way (for the birds AND for me) and although my "easy" way may take a bit more time and effort on my part, the birds remain calm, don't fight as much and in return, I feel better.
Anyway.....I know how you feel about moving the birds into the loft. Been there, done that.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

I am all about doing things right, even if that means more work or effort. For me this is all so exciting and enjoyable, doesn't feel like work! I am really enjoying the learning process here, and many many thanks to you and everyone else who has been so incredibly helpful and willing to share experiences, knowledge, and advice. I'd be lost without you all!!!



I'm going to go stare adoringly at the budas now on their fabulous FERTILE!!!! egg.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2009)

the only thing I have to say about this whole process is that you may find that having only two pairs of fosters might not help you as they have to lay eggs in unison with your birds that you are trying to breed so just keep that in mind and read up some on the idea of breeding with fosters


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> ...I would not use screen in a loft, it would get dusty and full of feathers and the toe nails can get caught in the small screen holes...I would use the hardware cloth instead


Hi spiritwings. I think she said that the window screening would be on one side, and the hardware cloth on the other. Actually, we have shutters that close against the windows, and on one side,(the side that faces outward), there is screening. On the side of the shutter that faces inward, is 1/2 inch hardware cloth. Actually, screen is good for the loft, as it stops mosquitoes from getting in. I think it's a great idea. We used it, and it works great. They can't get their claws into it as long as the screening is on the outside.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm actually going to have three pairs of fosters - and I plan to pitch in and/or take over with hand-feeding to help the birds grow up to be exceptionally tame whenever possible. I have the time and experience, so why not? 
Especially if the SF birds can get the babies through the first 5-7 days, I've got no problem seeing them through to weaning after that. I supplemented my income for years as a hand-feeder for all species of parrots. I loved it!

Also, I'm going to use dummy eggs to help control breeding as much as possible - and so I can let the Lahores and COF's have a chance to raise their own young as well. I'm not trying to have hundreds of babies here, just whatever feels manageable to me and is in the best interest for my birds, you know?
I don't want to over-work anybody.

I've been reading and studying up on fostering, I am still learning of course. I do have a couple of SF tumbler breeders who have been emailing me and helping me with info and advice on doing things right, which is really helping me a lot!! I'm bound to make mistakes of course along the way, LOL!! That's why I'm really grateful for all of you!!

Oh, and yep - screen is on the outside and hardware cloth on the inside. I wanted to protect from rodents _and_ bugs. I'm not worried about feathers and debris on it, I can use the shopvac on it! I'm a little on tidy side, ok, I am obsessively tidy - I'll find a way to keep it clean. LOL


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

karijo said:


> Oh, and yep - screen is on the outside and hardware cloth on the inside. I wanted to protect from rodents _and_ bugs. I'm not worried about feathers and debris on it, I can use the shopvac on it! I'm a little on tidy side, ok, I am obsessively tidy - I'll find a way to keep it clean. LOL


Believe me, it doesn't get all that many feathers and stuff in it, and the shop vac works well. It was important to me to protect the birds from bugs.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2009)

Karijo Im sure you prolly have this site already but thought I would post it anyways just in case you dont as this site has a ton of good pictures of Budapest in every color and a little information on them as well ,even thou he seems to be wanting to sell off his birds due to health problems  still a nice look at the pests of buda just the same


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Hi spiritwings. I think she said that the window screening would be on one side, and the hardware cloth on the other. Actually, we have shutters that close against the windows, and on one side,(the side that faces outward), there is screening. On the side of the shutter that faces inward, is 1/2 inch hardware cloth. Actually, screen is good for the loft, as it stops mosquitoes from getting in. I think it's a great idea. We used it, and it works great. They can't get their claws into it as long as the screening is on the outside.


I see,... I was remembering the moult in my loft and could not imagine a screen in there...but yes shop vac very good perhaps the screen will make a difference with the noseeums that gave my birds a hard time for a short spell in the summer. hope it all works out as planned.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

The link didn't post but I am pretty sure you meant this guy:
http://webpages.charter.net/budapesttumblers/index.htm

I LOVE all his pics - he has beautiful birds.
I did email him after I got Friedman, never heard back though.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2009)

yessssss thats it sorry it dint post it but yes that was the site  I have a book on shortfaced breeds from a guy in NJ,if I can find it here I will write what the name of it is too , I got it thru work from my boss who got it from the guy that wrote it. hmmm now where is it lol 

hmmm I found it but not sure where you would get it but its called "The Empire Short Face Tumbler Club EST 1947 Book of Standards Plus Breeding & Management Techniques " maybe you can get it thru the The Empire Short Face Tumbler Club some how ?


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

OK, you flight-pen/sun-pen pushers won me over.

We added a small sun pen off the left side window.
Figured might as well do it now then have to do it later.

The only thing that "bugs" me about it is that I went through all the trouble to use screen and hardware cloth on the windows... now I'm going to have this hardware cloth covered sun-pen where hoards of marauding pigeon flies and mosquitos can swarm into my poor little loft and feast on my babies! 


So, we got a plexi panel cut to close the sun-pen off when it's not in use... But I'm still imagining locust-like swarms of mosquitos and pigeon flies waiting in a dark alley for the moment it comes off and the gateway to pigeon buffet has been opened. Maybe I can screen the top sides, leaving only the floor of the pen with just hardware cloth, so it's harder for the evile pestilence to get in?

Am I being overly paranoid?


p.s.
the WOE tumbler looks like she belongs in a Charlie Chaplin movie when she runs around on the loft floor. I swear, I can't look at her without cracking up. Those doofy feathered feet... LOL


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

karijo said:


> OK, you flight-pen/sun-pen pushers won me over.
> 
> We added a small sun pen off the left side window.
> Figured might as well do it now then have to do it later.
> ...



*YES. *

I have seen TWO pigeon flies in my life. One on a bird that was being scanned for a race, and one on one of my birds way back in 2004 after he came home from a race. Loft kept pigeons and/or pet pigeons don't "get" pigeon flies as long as they are allowed to bath regularly, sprayed or dipped regularly and aren't constantly with other pigeons.
I'm sitting in the woods and in the summer, the mosquitoes absolutely eat us alive if we go out on the back deck. I've never noticed them to be a problem in the loft.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

But mosquitoes DO bite birds. But they are usually out more in the shade, and at dawn and dusk, or at night. They aren't so much in the bright sunlight. That is why my birds can go out in the aviary during the daytime, but at dusk, I always get them all in and make sure I close the aviary window, unless I put the screen up. Don't think you really have to worry too much as long as you do that. You should also vaccinate against pox.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Everybody is going to be vaccinated for everything this week.

We definitely have those pigeon flies on the ferals in Oakland, seen them a few times. They're the grossest.

Amusingly enough (not really), the other night we were putting up the last screen/hardware cloth and noticed one mosquito in the loft. I swear it stuck it's tongue out at me. It was carefully escorted out of the building, mooshed on the back of a tissue.


*Thanks for calming my fears y'all!* I feel better about it and in truth that's probably only the third mosquito I've ever seen near/in my home.


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## james fillbrook (Jan 2, 2009)

i think that that plan for the loft is just perfect for your birds i do not have a averie on mine


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey y'all. I am getting conflicting information on how many birds my loft can comfortably house. I do not want to overcrowd them! Can I get some opinions?

Originally I was going to keep 3 small bodied short faced tumbler pairs, then 2 or 3 normal bodied pairs as fosters. First I was told it could easily hold 6 pairs, now I am hearing only 3... help!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

karijo said:


> Hey y'all. I am getting conflicting information on how many birds my loft can comfortably house. I do not want to overcrowd them! Can I get some opinions?
> 
> Originally I was going to keep 3 small bodied short faced tumbler pairs, then 2 or 3 normal bodied pairs as fosters. First I was told it could easily hold 6 pairs, now I am hearing only 3... help!


Loft size?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> Loft size?


OOps.......never mind. 4 X 8, right?
You can keep about 16 birds, but since they will not be free flying, I would keep the number closer to 10 or 12 max.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks, Renee!! 

I do currently let Brook free fly a few hours a day (on weekends he's out almost all day), and Sylvie and Friedman get time each day to fly around indoors.

I am still hoping to one day have them all trained like Brook is to free fly outdoors when I am there to watch them. I've done it with finches and parrots... don't see why Pigeons couldn't be taught as well once they've had a few months to settle in and get to know their home? Friedman and Sylvie will both hop willingly onto my hand, and Syvlie follows Brook around so devotedly... Is it possible? I always see pics and videos of people with tumblers letting them walk around their yard or whatever. I've also been using a pigeon whistle now at feeding time.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

karijo said:


> Thanks, Renee!!
> 
> I do currently let Brook free fly a few hours a day (on weekends he's out almost all day), and Sylvie and Friedman get time each day to fly around indoors.
> 
> I am still hoping to one day have them all trained like Brook is to free fly outdoors when I am there to watch them. I've done it with finches and parrots... don't see why Pigeons couldn't be taught as well once they've had a few months to settle in and get to know their home? Friedman and Sylvie will both hop willingly onto my hand, and Syvlie follows Brook around so devotedly... Is it possible? I always see pics and videos of people with tumblers letting them walk around their yard or whatever. I've also been using a pigeon whistle now at feeding time.


I think it's pretty safe to "rehome" most breeds except the race birds. If they (homers) do what they're BRED to do and SUPPOSED to do, they'll take off the first chance they get and head home, wherever they feel that is.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

That's good to hear. I know the young man I gave a grizzle Budapest Tumbler cockbird to let's him outdoors everyday and he comes right back in the house when he's done. Friedman would probably just see it as an opporunity to attack the neighbors...


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