# Is It Wrong to Have Birds as Pets? Or, The Curious Case of a Sceptical Friend



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I have a close friend who believes it is wrong to keep birds, especially indoors or in any way that keeps them from flying free. I've tried as I may to explain that pigeons and other domesticated birds have been bred for thousands of years to become dependent on humans. Like dogs and cats they are now genetically dependent on us. Releasing them would mean their doom, but she points to the obvious fact that feral pigeons fly free and live without our help. So, in her mind it's simply wrong to keep birds. End of story.

I don't know if this is a case of an uninformed person who could see things differently with a little education or someone who is plain suspicious and sceptical of anything outside her own experience. So, I ask you: Have you ever met or dealt with anyone who believes it's wrong to keep birds or anything else as pets? If so, how do you respond to claims that what we and other fanciers are doing is is simply wrong, wrong, WRONG?

Many thanks,

Daniel
Bewildered In Berkeley (CA/USA)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Daniel...it really doesn't matter what you friend thinks and we each have the right to our own opinion. If this is a hot subject for the two of you, maybe you can agree to not discuss it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I had to deal a few times with this. Some people went as far as telling me that a disabled bird should rather be put to sleep than being kept captive. Maybe some wild birds cannot cope well in captivity but that is not the case with pigeons and some other species. Just have her take a look at them and she'll see that they do just fine and enjoy their lives. 
There is no way of convincing these people otherwise. I usually give up. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Basic test: Is the bird or animal (or human) *happy*? 

Content. Real happiness. You know what I mean. Not interpreted happiness by another -- "He must be happy because he hans't committed suicide yet," or "He has to be happy because he has a diamond-studded, gold-plated cage" or whatever other example you choose.

Is what is being done to or for the bird or animal good for it's survival as a species? As a member of a group of its own kind?

Many of us live lives in conditions others would not find acceptable for themselves. I figure that's why we are _individuals_, and not joined members of some mass organism. 


Larry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Scuiry said:


> I have a close friend who believes it is wrong to keep birds, especially indoors or in any way that keeps them from flying free. I've tried as I may to explain that pigeons and other domesticated birds have been bred for thousands of years to become dependent on humans. Like dogs and cats they are now genetically dependent on us.* Releasing them would mean their doom, but she points to the obvious fact that *** feral pigeons fly free and live without our help. So, in her mind it's simply wrong to keep birds. *End of story.
> 
> So, I ask you: Have you ever met or dealt with anyone who believes it's wrong to keep birds or anything else as pets? If so, how do you respond to claims that what we and other fanciers are doing is is simply wrong, wrong, WRONG?
> Many thanks,
> ...



Hi Daniel,


***Have you pointed out the fact, that domestic pigeons live quite a long and care free life in captivity, while a feral pigeon lives on the average of 3 years in the "wild", because of circumstances/conditions they have a hard life in most places where they are frowned upon? They live a hard life. Feral pigeons used to fly free without any help.....maybe in the garden of Edan.... maybe in a perfect world....but not in alot of places.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Those are the opinion of those crazy animal rights people. I've met a few of those...

I mean, one thing is keeping your bird in a tiny cage all day. But, a pigeon pet which goes around the house? Just like a dog or cat? Dunno, they don't seem that unhappy to me. There are many people who have pigeon pets that allow them to go outside to free fly and come back whenever they want. Why would they keep coming back if they are not happy?

Same goes for lofts. I've seen a loft only once, but pigeons flew around the loft some hours and then came back to the loft... and the birds come in voluntarily. Trained or not, something motivates them to get inside the loft. If they really wanted to leave, they would have already.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pawbla said:


> *Those are the opinion of those crazy animal rights people. I've met a few of those...*I mean, one thing is keeping your bird in a tiny cage all day. But, a pigeon pet which goes around the house? Just like a dog or cat? Dunno, they don't seem that unhappy to me. There are many people who have pigeon pets that allow them to go outside to free fly and come back whenever they want. Why would they keep coming back if they are not happy?
> 
> Same goes for lofts. I've seen a loft only once, but pigeons flew around the loft some hours and then came back to the loft... and the birds come in voluntarily. Trained or not, something motivates them to get inside the loft. If they really wanted to leave, they would have already.



Pawbla...it's not just them..or should I say me as I would put myself in crazy animal rights advocate category. I don't feel that all birds should be free but many people do. Even those that aren't animal right's advocates.

Daniel really doesn't need to explain himself to his friend.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Call them "pets"-"friends" whatever you like. I kept 2 pigeons for 20 years. thats longer than most cats or dogs live. Really have not heard of either living 20 years.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

sky tx said:


> Call them "pets"-"friends" whatever you like. I kept 2 pigeons for 20 years. thats longer than most cats or dogs live. Really have not heard of either living 20 years.


They can, S.T....
My cat passed 2 years ago at 20...my mom's little dog a couple of weeks ago at 21.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Hi Scuiry,
I don't associate or talk to people like that - And my friends no better than to say that to me 
If you must say something - Feral pigeons are "feral", their wild and born that way. But they too will let humans help them when they need it. They seem to know we are trying to help them, they appreciate it and usually stay!
The pigeons that most of the fancier's and racers keep are Domestic Breeds.
Just like dogs. They originated from the wolf - does that mean all dogs should be set free to fend for themselves


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Thanks Charis----but they are few of the lucky pets.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Charis said:


> Pawbla...it's not just them..or should I say me as I would put myself in crazy animal rights advocate category. I don't feel that all birds should be free but many people do. Even those that aren't animal right's advocates.


What I was saying in the first line was not really serious LOL. Don't take everything I say seriously x.X


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i get that alot also, more directed at parrots.
that's why i have adopted all my birds as unwanted pets, no way could they be returned to the wild, the would sit on a branch waiting for a human to give them a bowl of pasta.
i don't like the parrot breeding business so much, most people don't understand what it takes to properly care for them and many suffer long long lives in sub standard cages and miserable.
i know there are responsible breeders, but alot don't care where the babies go as long as they get the big bucks for them, parrot mills are just as horrendous as puppy mills.
pigeons are truly domesticated even the ferals are and would not survive without humans, that's why you don't see them out in the woods.
parrots on the other hand are not domesticated except cocktiels and keets.
i can see both sides but obviously i have them as pets so i believe they make great pets, and i love them so much it hurts


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Either agree not to agree or get new friends. Thats not going to work either, there are breeds like Fantails and the little English Owls that wouldn't live a week in the wild, 90 % of the family dogs would die, cats are a different story all togather all most all of them would find food but there would be no more song birds. I better stop here those animal rights people just P--- me off to know end.
Dave


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yeah, well...from what you have said....it's basically just the opinion of someone who isn't very informed on the subject.

You can sorta beat your head against the wall and they probably won't change unless they really take the time to actually do some research on the difference between an animal which is domestic-bred or raised in captivity for whatever reason....vs. those born in the wild/feral world.

BTW, Pawbla & Pete...as Charis mentioned...don't go lumping animal-rights advocates into that category.

I think it'd be fair to say that the vast majority of folks on this Forum _would consider themselves_ animal-rights advocates, if asked. Heck, I am even a proud member of PETA (yes they have their valid critics, but I appreciate their "pull no punches" approach).

This isn't a matter of advocacy, just a matter of being poorly informed.

Which doesn't mean the debate isn't valid...because it certainly IS. Just means you wanna come to it with as much info as you can.....


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

interesting subject...i have both parrots and pigeons, dogs too. i KNOW that i go to pretty extreme lengths to make sure that my birds have stimulating, safe, comforting, and healthy environments. it's true- sadly true- that many people think you can just stick a bird in a tiny, filthy, barren cage for it's whole life and feed it substandard food and that that should be enough, and for a bird kept in those conditions, maybe a short, danger-filled life of freedom might actually be a better bet. 
but i equate letting your birds fly free with letting your cat roam around outside...very very dangerous. i don't have a cat, but if i did, it would never go outside unless it was in an enclosure, but rest assured, it would have one heck of a cushy life as a strictly indoor cat. 
same goes for the birds. if you're going to keep birds in your house, you have the responsibility of sort of 'making up for' them not being 'free'. i would love to let my birds cruise the neighborhood and come home to roost at night, but the fact is, they would get sick, and maimed and killed and brutalized....no thanks.
some of my birds are rescues that i would wager wouldn't survive 24 hours of 'freedom'. 
i for one, and sometimes with a quivering bottom lip, clip all of my birds wings, and only let them outside in an enclosure. but they have an unlimited supply of clean and healthy food, filtered water, clean bedding, vet care, safety, companionship and a ridiculous amount of love from a human momma. 
maybe all of that doesn't totally make up for the loss of their 'freedom', but then again....maybe it does?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Jaye, I said I was kinda joking. I'm actually one of the "crazy animal rights people" too. I am a coordinator of some of the activities in my city, actually.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/
And you are PROUD to be a member of PETA, I hope thats not the no holds bard you were talking about.
Dave
http://www.activistcash.com/organization_blackeye.cfm/oid/21 Maybe this is the part you are PROUD of


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## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Slight deviation from the subject but still related. 
I saw a clip on the news yesterday about an organization in the L.A. area who captures and sterilizes feral cats and returns them to "wilds" of L.A. Their release of the ferals dooms thousands of wild birds to being eaten by the feral cats. Not being a big fan of euthanization I feel this situation shound be dealt with by euthanization rather than a release back to the community. There are thousands repeat THOUSANDS of these feral cats in L.A. The pressure put on the wild bird population by BOP in conjunction with the feral cat population is rapidly decreasing the number of wild birds in more areas than just L.A.

In my town there is a leash law for cats as well as dogs. I feel there is probably a similar ordinance in L.A. My question is how is this group allowed to release these ferals back into the city? This is a greater public health issue than feral pigeons in my opinion yet pigeons still get a bad rap.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i agree 100%


velo99 said:


> Slight deviation from the subject but still related.
> I saw a clip on the news yesterday about an organization in the L.A. area who captures and sterilizes feral cats and returns them to "wilds" of L.A. Their release of the ferals dooms thousands of wild birds to being eaten by the feral cats. Not being a big fan of euthanization I feel this situation shound be dealt with by euthanization rather than a release back to the community. There are thousands repeat THOUSANDS of these feral cats in L.A. The pressure put on the wild bird population by BOP in conjunction with the feral cat population is rapidly decreasing the number of wild birds in more areas than just L.A.
> 
> In my town there is a leash law for cats as well as dogs. I feel there is probably a similar ordinance in L.A. My question is how is this group allowed to release these ferals back into the city? This is a greater public health issue than feral pigeons in my opinion yet pigeons still get a bad rap.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

" If every man was the same that one woman would get awful tired" I respect their opinion they should also respect mine. In works both ways. Ross Bar H Lofts Ont. Canada


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

It is right and wrong to have birds as pets, it depends on which bird you are keeping 

There are many birds which are protected by law and not allowed to be kept as pets by individuals, so if you are keeping one of those birds, very wrong.

If you are keeping other birds, for example some pigeons, which are provided food, nesting, medicine, protection and love by you, its very right.

That is the simplest way I can answer


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't agree on the feral cats thing.
Here we do that. We spay and neuter cats and release them back. I mean, killing them just because they are ferals is plain WRONG. Sterilized cats will not produce more kittens so the population will start to be smaller eventually. It's called long term solution.
Or would you agree on killing people because there is overpopulation?
That group is doing good stuff. They are making the cats' lives better, and people's life better (no more territorial aggressive cats). The wild birds... well, I'm sorry for them, and I save as much as I can find. But that doesn't mean it is right to kill the cat just because the cat kills out of instinct.

On the other hand, let's not go off topic.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Pawbla

You are 100% corect I would much rather see steril cats than killing them by the thousands...


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## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Alright lets back up a step. Feral cats are not people. 
To compare them to the value of a human life is ludicrous.
In Texas,where I live,people that are feral are euthanized.
What you`re saying is that lives a thousand wild birds is worth releasing a sterile cat back into the human population where thay can infect pet cats with viruses, lukemia,distemper and a host of other diseases on the basis of a "long term solution". You feel sorry for the wild birds....? Your argument of _eventually_ is a band aid to say the least. For every one cat that is sterlized another six hit the street daily.
What you just said is you value the lives of a feral cat over the lives of wild birds and the cats of "responsible" cat owners.
Feral cats are killers plain and simple. People are the problem, the feral cats are the result of people not being responsible pet owners. As a society we cannot afford to let the results of our own foibles result in the destruction of entire species of migratory wild birds.
Euthanasia is a tool which _must_ be used when neccessary. As I stated earlier I am not a fan of it but in certain situations I feel it is appropriate.
Quick test:
Would you feed wild birds in your yard for enjoyment? Would you feed feral cats in your yard for enjoyment?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Okay, the people thing was an obvious hyperbolic example.
Your argument of sickness sounds to me like "why do you let feral pigeons live? They can infect your birds with canker, PMV, etc!". Which I don't think you would approve.

It is NOT a band aid. There are so many cats because of the pyramidal reproduction. And massive castrations are MOSTLY useful if they come in with education programs. If not you will spend your life sterilizing cats!

However, in the US, you have shelters. I don't know why they aren't sent to shelters, so ask them if you wish.

In Texas... I could say so much about it. But I'm not getting into politics, I couldn't care less about what you do in the US with people.

I don't value anybody's life above the other ones. I am simply stating both have the right to live. Birds have a chance of escape and cats have the chance to hunt. Would you euthanize a lion because it hunts an animal that is near extinction?

I wouldn't feed cats because I have dogs. Do you want my dogs to kill the cat?
I used to feed a feral cat when I didn't have dogs, though. Actually, quite a lot of cats when I moved to a house... I even named them.
And I used to feed birds in my front yard before I had to put a dog there (he's a stray who has scabies so I have to keep him separated from my dogs). So both.

Where I live, feral cats get fed by good people.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Ignoring the feral cat issue, although it is very sad and very serious...a topic for another time...

Feral pigeons have a perilous existence. I would say that they survive "despite" human intervention, rather than "without" human intervention. They may have the freedom to fly wherever they please... but they have starvation, disease, predators, and human cruelty to contend with among other things.

Pigeons in captivity may not have the freedom to fly wherever and whenever they please. But in my opinion, the tradeoff is not an issue. For the most part, domestic pigeons are given the best nutrition, medical care, and protection their owners can give them. To me, it is a no brainer that domestic birds are mostly happier, healthier, and safer than feral (not "wild") birds. 

But others may value freedom higher than stability, protection, health, and safety. I suppose that is a valid point. (But if I were a pigeon, I would rather be captive and spoiled than free and imperiled...)


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## roadrunnermike (Nov 14, 2009)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but My Bird is so tame He wont even go outside when I throw Him out, He flys right back into the house, and has free run of a giant patio, so I know Hes happy, He wouldnt survive a day on His Own,,check out some of My videos, and show them to Your Friend,, Pigeons dont live very long in the wild because Hawks and other predators eat them.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

velo99 said:


> In Texas,where I live,people that are feral are euthanized.


I think this thread needs a little lightening up, so I'm posting this. It is definitely a typo from velo99, but it struck me as quite crazy when I read it. 

_It was real news to me that feral people in Texas were euthanized!_ 

Velo99, please don't be angry. I also know you from a another major pigeon related site, and I know you are one of the good guys .. just trying to have a bit of a laugh here.

Terry


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pawbla said:


> I don't agree on the feral cats thing.
> Here we do that. We spay and neuter cats and release them back. I mean, killing them just because they are ferals is plain WRONG. Sterilized cats will not produce more kittens so the population will start to be smaller eventually. It's called long term solution.
> Or would you agree on killing people because there is overpopulation?
> That group is doing good stuff. They are making the cats' lives better, and people's life better (no more territorial aggressive cats). The wild birds... well, I'm sorry for them, and I save as much as I can find. But that doesn't mean it is right to kill the cat just because the cat kills out of instinct.
> ...


I agree with you. Every living thing has a right to live.
Here in Southern Maine and NH, we have a program that traps feral cats. 1st thing done is they are tested for leukemia. If they are *positive* they are euthanized. If negative, and truly feral they are spayed or neutered, given a rabies vaccine, treated for ear mites and fleas and released back to where they were found and volunteers maintain feeding stations for them. If they are just stray (not feral), they are put up for adoption.
I DO agree though that something should be done about irresponsible cat OWNERS!
Birds as pets? It depends on the breed and circumstances. If one raises a baby Robin that turns out to have a deformity that renders him "non releasable" I don't think it should be set free to die in the wild. And I don't think it should be euthanized just because it is a wild bird that can't live in the wild - that's what most of the wildlife rescues do around here 
Pigeons are "different" than most birds. They seem to enjoy our company, know and accept when we are trying to help them, and usually choose captivity! They are NOT stupid, they are survivors that know when they have a good thing!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

amoonswirl said:


> But others may value freedom higher than stability, protection, health, and safety. I suppose that is a valid point. (But if I were a pigeon, I would rather be captive and spoiled than free and imperiled...)


I would choose the same, especially if I were a pigeon! Pigeons are so adaptable and tame.
As a human, I'd choose to be locked up in a house with my mate and my dogs and survive than to do some of those risky jobs. Like a war photographer...



TAWhatley said:


> I think this thread needs a little lightening up, so I'm posting this. It is definitely a typo from velo99, but it struck me as quite crazy when I read it.


Was it a typo? LOL. I thought it was for real. Like they sentenced them to death penalty. Because Texas still has death penalty, right?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pawbla said:


> Was it a typo? LOL. I thought it was for real. Like they sentenced them to death penalty. Because Texas still has death penalty, right?


No, I guess he was serious .. so much for me trying to inject a little humor where there wasn't any 

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just thought I would add my 2 cents to the mix regarding MR. Squeaks...

I found him in 2003. He was banded on both legs...a racing homing pigeon with a badly broken wing.

Had 2 choices: Euthanize or heal and keep. 

I chose the latter. His wing was so badly broken and not healing, that half had to be amputated. Obviously, he couldn't be set free!! Attempts to find the owner were unsuccessful. I had my first (pet??) pigeon!

To say that MR. Squeaks completely changed my life is putting things *mildly*! For those who want more details, his story is in the Stories section.

He is truly a pigeon with ATTITUDE and rules me and two cats (previously FOUR when I found him!) with an iron beak!

Because of him, I have met people from all over the world and have formed friendships that will last for the rest of my life! 

I firmly believe in "pet" pigeons when the situation is warranted. However, who/which is the "pet" can be up for grabs!!

Love and Hugs and Scritches to ALL

Shi and MR. Squeaks


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I absolutely agree with you mr squeaks and my very first pigeon: Mr. Pigeon I found with a wing broke in three places and he was shot with a bb gun in the shoulder area and I found him under my bush in the driveway and that started off my life with pigeons and like you I have met pigeon people from all areas and I am grateful to Mr. Pigeon. My life would not be complete without my birdies and they have taught me great lesson of life as well. Thank you for your insight....c.hert


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Ah, sorry... there you can see how little is my ability on the English language. Sometimes I miss some words and it changes the whole meaning for me .


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## Frank-NC (Jan 26, 2010)

every living creature deserves to be free, but if for some reason we choose to make a creature domisticated all we can do is provide the best care possible for it. far as the rest, to each his/her own.


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## ND Cooper (Mar 4, 2008)

Feral Cats are a nusance!
(sp)
What do you think that they eat to survive? Mice? No.
Rats?, no.
Handouts? some, not many.
Fish? (sure, I'll bet the farm on that!)
The anser is: GARBAGE! Un eaten food, leftovers from humans!
You can't get rid of all of them, because there will always be some of them around.
What eats feral cats? Coyots, fox, and now, mountain lion.
Whens the last time you saw a dog eat a cat?
The chain of life is controlled by humans (so we think).
Nature rules Always.
The unbalance in nature is directly influenced by humans, or act's of God.
The
Feral cats population has exploded because of human expansion.
I guess, that someday, an act of god would be the only thing that will solve the problem of too many feral cats.
By the way, I like cats!
I grew up with two of them. (house cats)


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## danzighighflyer (Apr 16, 2010)

Hi there... 

I agree that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and I choose pigeons over indoor cage birds partly because the former can fly free outside. 

However, a very good example of the quality of life argument that you can explain to your friend is this: when allowed their freedom 24 hours, most pigeons will still only spend one or two of those hours outside their loft area every day. Some will never venture outside at all to fly. They simply feel safe and content in their loft where they have food, water, perches, a nest perhaps. I have two flocks in different places that I keep this way, with a pigeon door that is always open, and I have noticed the above pattern with both. 

The pigeon/human symbiosis is surely a profound one, proven by the sheer diversity of pigeon breeds, their historical importance, and the success of feral birds in human settlements worldwide.


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## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Great question*

I think it's a great question and, in my opinion, I don't think any animal that doesn't have to be a pet, should be a pet. I think wild animals should be left to live their lives in the wild and that we should keep our promise to domestic animals and care for them as dependent pets (what we've made them into).

In some cases, animals that can no longer live wild can be given wonderful lives in the care of people but I think it is the animals' well-being that should be the deciding factor- not what people want.

I also think that, until there are homes for all the animals that need them, that we should not buy or breed more. I know many that have all kinds of great reasons for breeding and I respect their opinions but, with such a crisis of pet-over population, I disagree. Personally- I don't see how anyone can let a litter of pups or kittens or rabbits or birds be born when there are SO MANY killed everyday for lack of a home.

And that's my 9 cents.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Elizabethy said:


> I think it's a great question and, in my opinion, I don't think any animal that doesn't have to be a pet, should be a pet. I think wild animals should be left to live their lives in the wild and that we should keep our promise to domestic animals and care for them as dependent pets (what we've made them into).
> 
> In some cases, animals that can no longer live wild can be given wonderful lives in the care of people but I think it is the animals' well-being that should be the deciding factor- not what people want.
> 
> ...


I like your 9 cents.

I have not read all the post, but I just do not like flock birds being bred and sold in pet stores and kept and sold alone . large fly pens with their own kind would be better for them, as they are already here. pigeons on the other hand seem to get along fine with people and if they can not be kept in ideal situations to mimick their natural beginnings then they need alot of interaction with someone or other pigeons IMO. as far as wild animals/birds... leave them alone and stop the big top from making them perform. it sickens me.


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## nmillerhhi (May 30, 2008)

My pigeon, Blessing, came to the front door and knocked repeatedly until we let him in. When my hubby opened the door, Blessing entered and went to sit on my hubby's chair. We've had Blessing now for 2 years. I'd say Blessing wanted to be our pampered pet. We also have 4 Chihuahuas, a mini dachshund and a Min Pin who all think this is the best place to live. (Ok, I admit hubby and I spoil each other so we know how they all feel!!)


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I have so enjoyed reading all your replies. It helped me make the decision to put my widow bird- whom I brought inside to raise her babies and had become quite tame-back in the loft to do the things pigeons love to do. I really didn't want to do it but you convinced me it was the right thing.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

doveone52 said:


> I have so enjoyed reading all your replies. It helped me make the decision to put my widow bird- whom I brought inside to raise her babies and had become quite tame-back in the loft to do the things pigeons love to do. I really didn't want to do it but you convinced me it was the right thing.


It's very hard to do  My 3 baby fantails still fly to me and land on my head and shoulder when I go into the loft to feed.
I just accepted an offer on my house that I have for sale  So hopefully I will be able to get a new shed to convert for my Fantails by June! - I have them in a temporary setup right now and I keep them separate from my homers and tumblers. My plan is to make a similar loft (cottage style with large flight cage), then connect them with walkways and gardens................To minimize LAWN MOWING! I'd much rather "putter" in gardens than sit on a mower all day


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Waynette, that sounds amazing! would love to see when you finish.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Scuiry said:


> I have a close friend who believes it is wrong to keep birds, especially indoors or in any way that keeps them from flying free. I've tried as I may to explain that pigeons and other domesticated birds have been bred for thousands of years to become dependent on humans. Like dogs and cats they are now genetically dependent on us. Releasing them would mean their doom, but she points to the obvious fact that feral pigeons fly free and live without our help. So, in her mind it's simply wrong to keep birds. End of story.
> 
> I don't know if this is a case of an uninformed person who could see things differently with a little education or someone who is plain suspicious and sceptical of anything outside her own experience. So, I ask you: Have you ever met or dealt with anyone who believes it's wrong to keep birds or anything else as pets? If so, how do you respond to claims that what we and other fanciers are doing is is simply wrong, wrong, WRONG?
> 
> ...


Daniel,

Was doing some early morning thread surfing and came across this thread. 

The best, long term solution is to dump this "friend". She may have other qualities which is why you keep her around, but she sounds like way too much of a project, and a waste of time. Quit wasting your valuable time and find some friends that think more like you. You will never change her. 

There may be other things....that the two of you also disagree on....but at the moment, you may be so wrapped up in being "close" that you over look these wacko ideas she has. Save yourself a whole bunch of grief, and dump her now.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Living a Longer Life*



Trees Gray said:


> Hi Daniel,
> 
> 
> ***Have you pointed out the fact, that domestic pigeons live quite a long and care free life in captivity, while a feral pigeon lives on the average of 3 years in the "wild", because of circumstances/conditions they have a hard life in most places where they are frowned upon? They live a hard life. Feral pigeons used to fly free without any help.....maybe in the garden of Edan.... maybe in a perfect world....but not in alot of places.


Hi Treesa,

This was the very first thing I said to her, they can live up to twenty years and her immediate answer was, "So what?" In her mind, they're birds and they belong outside where they can fly free. Keeping them prisoner is wrong no matter how long they live.

Now, I don't believe any of this for a second, but I do remember one pigeon I rescued that died in my home because of an accident. I mourned over the fact she never saw the open sky again. I could have let her go, but I kept her as a pet. She never really warmed up to me but she was almost tame and her favorite perch was the back of my rocking chair. She mated with another rescue, hatched two babies, then died of stupid accident in my bathroom. If I had let her go, she would have lived another year maybe before getting eaten by a hawk or dying of some disease - but she would have soared the open sky again. Would she have been happier? I honestly don't know. I've only felt this way about one pigeon. But I don't think it's wrong to have pigeons. 

In rescue work, I just wondered if this is a common attitude you've come across.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Free Flying Lofts*



Pawbla said:


> Those are the opinion of those crazy animal rights people. I've met a few of those...
> 
> I mean, one thing is keeping your bird in a tiny cage all day. But, a pigeon pet which goes around the house? Just like a dog or cat? Dunno, they don't seem that unhappy to me. There are many people who have pigeon pets that allow them to go outside to free fly and come back whenever they want. Why would they keep coming back if they are not happy?
> 
> Same goes for lofts. I've seen a loft only once, but pigeons flew around the loft some hours and then came back to the loft... and the birds come in voluntarily. Trained or not, something motivates them to get inside the loft. If they really wanted to leave, they would have already.


I think my friend would be okay if I had a loft where they could fly free. Her issue was that my birds are all indoors. Now, I have Fantails - they can fly about thirty feet before grounding themselves. What good would it be to let them loose? They'd only kill themselves. But, no, it's a bird and they belong outside.

I also know that many flighted pigeons are a little ditzy with their directional cues - some just fly away and starve or become part of the food chain. So, I'm not sure it's always a good idea to let pigeons fly free, even the flighted ones. Homers are another thing but even they can get lost or become a free lunch. I think it becomes a very personal decision whether to fly your pigeons.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Domesticated Breeds*



Msfreebird said:


> Hi Scuiry,
> I don't associate or talk to people like that - And my friends no better than to say that to me
> If you must say something - Feral pigeons are "feral", their wild and born that way. But they too will let humans help them when they need it. They seem to know we are trying to help them, they appreciate it and usually stay!
> The pigeons that most of the fancier's and racers keep are Domestic Breeds.
> Just like dogs. They originated from the wolf - does that mean all dogs should be set free to fend for themselves


This was one of my major points - domesticated animals are dependent on us.

I forgot to mention that pigeons have no natural habitat or food source in North America - ferals have to eat garbage and live in abandoned buildings. What's "natural" about that? The true Rock Dove lives on the rocky cliffs on the coasts of the Mediterranean. There's nothing "natural" about them flying free here. I wish I had remembered this before.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*The Breeding Business*



altgirl35 said:


> i get that alot also, more directed at parrots.
> that's why i have adopted all my birds as unwanted pets, no way could they be returned to the wild, the would sit on a branch waiting for a human to give them a bowl of pasta.
> i don't like the parrot breeding business so much, most people don't understand what it takes to properly care for them and many suffer long long lives in sub standard cages and miserable.
> i know there are responsible breeders, but alot don't care where the babies go as long as they get the big bucks for them, parrot mills are just as horrendous as puppy mills.
> ...


One of the reasons I don't go into certain "pet stores" is because I know many of the birds come from these backyard breeding farms, that it's supporting an industry that exploits their suffering. To me, that's a whole other issue. Rescuing a pigeon or adopting one from a shelter is not supporting a shady market. 

It is amazing to me how these birds will bond withus. I have one that thinks I'm its mate. It's a little trying at times - I need to be a human at least once in a while ;-) She would be heartbroken if I sent her away. That's how close they are to us.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Poorly Informed*



Jaye said:


> Yeah, well...from what you have said....it's basically just the opinion of someone who isn't very informed on the subject.
> 
> You can sorta beat your head against the wall and they probably won't change unless they really take the time to actually do some research on the difference between an animal which is domestic-bred or raised in captivity for whatever reason....vs. those born in the wild/feral world.
> 
> ...


I wish I knew how to persuade some people to be better informed - but I guess that goes beyond the scope of my question...

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Birds in Gilded Cages*



lizz said:


> interesting subject...i have both parrots and pigeons, dogs too. i KNOW that i go to pretty extreme lengths to make sure that my birds have stimulating, safe, comforting, and healthy environments. it's true- sadly true- that many people think you can just stick a bird in a tiny, filthy, barren cage for it's whole life and feed it substandard food and that that should be enough, and for a bird kept in those conditions, maybe a short, danger-filled life of freedom might actually be a better bet.
> but i equate letting your birds fly free with letting your cat roam around outside...very very dangerous. i don't have a cat, but if i did, it would never go outside unless it was in an enclosure, but rest assured, it would have one heck of a cushy life as a strictly indoor cat.
> same goes for the birds. if you're going to keep birds in your house, you have the responsibility of sort of 'making up for' them not being 'free'. i would love to let my birds cruise the neighborhood and come home to roost at night, but the fact is, they would get sick, and maimed and killed and brutalized....no thanks.
> some of my birds are rescues that i would wager wouldn't survive 24 hours of 'freedom'.
> ...



I once knew a family from the Middle East. The father captured wild finches and kept them in tiny cages less than a square foot. I'd watch one of the finches darting endlessly around the inside of the tiny cage desperately trying to escape. But in their culture, this was a perfectly normal and acceptable practice. I wondered whether I should have called the Fish and Game department or the local animal control - wild finches are a protected species. But I let it go. They were very nice people and offered me hospitality when I was going through a very lonely period in my life. I didn't want to cause them any trouble.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Releasing Feral Cats*



velo99 said:


> Slight deviation from the subject but still related.
> I saw a clip on the news yesterday about an organization in the L.A. area who captures and sterilizes feral cats and returns them to "wilds" of L.A. Their release of the ferals dooms thousands of wild birds to being eaten by the feral cats. Not being a big fan of euthanization I feel this situation shound be dealt with by euthanization rather than a release back to the community. There are thousands repeat THOUSANDS of these feral cats in L.A. The pressure put on the wild bird population by BOP in conjunction with the feral cat population is rapidly decreasing the number of wild birds in more areas than just L.A.
> 
> In my town there is a leash law for cats as well as dogs. I feel there is probably a similar ordinance in L.A. My question is how is this group allowed to release these ferals back into the city? This is a greater public health issue than feral pigeons in my opinion yet pigeons still get a bad rap.


I have a friend who does this. My neighbor's grandson does it too - both at their own personal expense. They work with local vets to neuter and release the ferals. They also go back and leave them food periodically so they don't rely on eating birds. I'm sure they still hunt birds; it's in their nature. I think you have to be a cat-person to understand. Besides, even companion pet cats do this. I'm not sure there is a good solution. In any case, I think municipalities are so overwhelmed with other things that feral cats is probably low on their list of priorities.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*9 Cents Plus 1*



Elizabethy said:


> I think it's a great question and, in my opinion, I don't think any animal that doesn't have to be a pet, should be a pet. I think wild animals should be left to live their lives in the wild and that we should keep our promise to domestic animals and care for them as dependent pets (what we've made them into).
> 
> In some cases, animals that can no longer live wild can be given wonderful lives in the care of people but I think it is the animals' well-being that should be the deciding factor- not what people want.
> 
> ...


I'd like to add one more cent - maybe two here. I think feral pigeons are all homeless pets. That's my own, unbalanced, personal opinion. I think it's a crime against nature and the whole universe that they have to live in our cities on garbage and roost in abandoned buildings. Unlike cats, they can easily adapt to living in a loft. All they need is a mate, shelter and plenty of food. They'll almost always return.

On the other hand, I would never CAGE a pigeon. I always tell people you can't cage something that could fly 600 miles in a day. Unfortunately, my house has unspeakable things lying everywhere - let your imagination fill in the blanks ;-) I pay a huge personal price for letting them have that freedom. Hopefully, there is a small reward for me - and all of us here - in the next life for all the effort.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Soul Searching*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Was doing some early morning thread surfing and came across this thread.
> 
> ...



Dear Warren and Karen,

Let's just say the whole issue has made me do a lot of soul searching.

Take care and many thanks,

Daniel


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Scuiry said:


> I think my friend would be okay if I had a loft where they could fly free. Her issue was that my birds are all indoors. Now, I have Fantails - they can fly about thirty feet before grounding themselves. What good would it be to let them loose? They'd only kill themselves. But, no, it's a bird and they belong outside.
> 
> I also know that many flighted pigeons are a little ditzy with their directional cues - some just fly away and starve or become part of the food chain. So, I'm not sure it's always a good idea to let pigeons fly free, even the flighted ones. Homers are another thing but even they can get lost or become a free lunch. I think it becomes a very personal decision whether to fly your pigeons.
> 
> Daniel


Fantails are NOT wild birds. They are a domestic breed. With their bulky body and fantail, they are not great flyers. They'd be the first birds to be picked off my hawks and feral cats


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Not Wild Birds*



Msfreebird said:


> Fantails are NOT wild birds. They are a domestic breed. With their bulky body and fantail, they are not great flyers. They'd be the first birds to be picked off my hawks and feral cats


I utterly agree. Let me try and phrase what I think was my friend's response to this: But they're birds. They belong outside. It's just wrong to keep them indoors.

I know this sounds like we were talking in circles - because we were. That's basically where we ended up.

I tried suggesting she learn something about animal husbandry and the difference between and wild and domestic fowl. Alas, this was to no avail.

The only thing I can fathom from where we left things was it was just wrong to breed birds for these purposes. It reminds me a little of certain strains with short beaks (owls) - they cannot feed their own young and need to be fostered by other pigeons, or pigeons bred to roll in the grass (parlor rollers). I'm not suggesting that any of this is wrong but I could see someone having a problem with creating exotic strains for these unusual purposes.

Many thanks to all of you for helping me sort this out.

Daniel


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Scuiry said:


> I utterly agree. Let me try and phrase what I think was *my friend's response to this: But they're birds. They belong outside. It's just wrong to keep them indoors.*
> 
> I know this sounds like we were talking in circles - because we were. That's basically where we ended up.
> 
> ...


 That's BS - who says it's wrong? Then why is it OK to keep other animals (pets) inside, tropical fish in tanks? It all depends on the quality of their care, the type of breed and the circumstances.
I agree that wild birds should not be caught and kept as pets. But I have a Mollucan Cockatoo that was bred in captivity (by a breeder) and hand raised (now 16 years old). She has a HUGE cage in my living room (probably bigger than most people's bathroom) and she has her own bedroom that she goes into every night at 8 o'clock. And she lets me know when it's time to go to bed - "8 o'clock, go to bed" (asking nicely at first then to a SCREECH if I don't pay attention) This is a domestic bred and raised bird NOT native to our country - so your friend is saying this bird should be outside or set free? That's about the cruelest, not to mention most idiotic thing I've heard.
Your "friend" doesn't want to listen or learn because she doesn't care - she has no respect for your or anyone else's opinion. You've given her "facts" and she still has a closed mind. I wouldn't waste my time with her - she can have her opinion, but that doesn't make her right. I don't let my "friends" or anyone else dictate to me - maybe that's why I have very few friends, lol, but I like it that way


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*That's BS*



Msfreebird said:


> That's BS - who says it's wrong? Then why is it OK to keep other animals (pets) inside, tropical fish in tanks? It all depends on the quality of their care, the type of breed and the circumstances.
> I agree that wild birds should not be caught and kept as pets. But I have a Mollucan Cockatoo that was bred in captivity (by a breeder) and hand raised (now 16 years old). She has a HUGE cage in my living room (probably bigger than most people's bathroom) and she has her own bedroom that she goes into every night at 8 o'clock. And she lets me know when it's time to go to bed - "8 o'clock, go to bed" (asking nicely at first then to a SCREECH if I don't pay attention) This is a domestic bred and raised bird NOT native to our country - so your friend is saying this bird should be outside or set free? That's about the cruelest, not to mention most idiotic thing I've heard.
> Your "friend" doesn't want to listen or learn because she doesn't care - she has no respect for your or anyone else's opinion. You've given her "facts" and she still has a closed mind. I wouldn't waste my time with her - she can have her opinion, but that doesn't make her right. I don't let my "friends" or anyone else dictate to me - maybe that's why I have very few friends, lol, but I like it that way


Well, it's certainly not logical. For some reason, in her own mind, pets (cats and dogs) are different - and that's it. I'm not trying to defend her point of view - I'm just trying to understand it. It's the most radical idea I've ever heard - it really knocked me off my chair. Mind you, this same person is not a vegetarian, wears leather accessories. Ironically, we had this conversation over a steak dinner.

On every trip to Los Angeles I drive past a big industry dairy farm. I see hundreds - maybe thousands - of cows in tight quarters walking through their own muck. You can smell it for smiles up and down the highway. I don't know if those cows are "happy" or "well cared for" but this is where our food comes from - I wonder if she ever thinks of things like this. I've wanted to tell her what it was like to see a truck stuffed with chickens on its way to the packing house on a freezing winter night. Whenever I mention it she makes me stop.

She went to a pigeon show with me once and came away disturbed by the experience. She didn't like seeing parlor rollers flipped around in the grass or thousands of pigeons in rows of tiny cages. Personally, I know all these things are harmless. Why would anyone think it's okay to fry chicken but it's not okay to show pigeons?

Daniel


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Your friend has a one track mind. and that mind is seeing it only her way. First well really pigeons do better outside the house. BUT if a person wants to keep one inside as a pet its there choice . People like animals ,birds reptiles, ect. Its not natures choice but human choice. Is it wrong probably by nature it is But has long been done my man kind. And Is not bad by human thought The changed birds are now a breed type be it fantail or race birds. And would be better left to man to carry on with them Or many breeds would fail in nature And some would revert back to wild state. Now i would not give a bird free roaming in a home Unless its wings were clipped and a place made for the bird. BUT if a person wants to then thats there life not mine.. If your friend does not like seeing birds caged and such then she needs not go where they are.


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## Seijun (Apr 14, 2010)

There is no arguing with the Animal Rights mentality. People like that are such hypocrites sometimes! 
So your friend sees nothing wrong with keeping dogs? What about a Siberian Husky? This animal was designed both mentally and physically to run, pull, and live in cold northern climates. The husky is a working breed. Isn't it wrong then to keep one as a PET in a warm climate? Or a beagle, also designed to do a lot of running around and also _hunting_. Isn't it wrong to keep a beagle from running loose and hunting rabbits all day like it was designed for? Are the dogs that were designed for one life but kept in another inherently miserable? 
CATS are even less "domestic" than dogs! These animals were bred for thousands of years to live OUTSIDE hunting and running free. I know my cat would just LOVE to be outside if I let her.


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