# Help My Pigeon Is Dieing!



## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

I have a pet pigeon I inherited and have had her two years. She is a wild pigeon that is tame. I got her from a vet that nursed her back to good health. She is more like a dog than a pigeon in her personality. Well I usually let her outside to fly around and follow me. A month ago I found her on the floor of my shop all fluffed up and acting sick (closing eyelid and acting tired.) I immediately found an Avian vet in town and took her there. She had a bacteria count of 30 which is way high. We put her on antibiotics and she started getting better. For two days she was herself again. I let her outside on a nice day to stretch her wings a bit. She did great. Then on the third day in the afternoon, again I found her on the ground and her wings dropped, eyelids open and then sleepy. I tried putting her back on the antibiotic, but it made no difference. Took her to vet again. They checked bacteria, the blood, her crop. Everything is checking out o.k. Meantime, she is lost so much weight she has no energy. Her wings are dropped. She has eatin a litte seed. I have forced some bird formula down her. She has drank a little. She is whithering away and I don't know what to do. They even checked her feces for parasites with a negative on the test. Please help me save my Henrietta!!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I wish I could help you, I have been there so often myself.... all I can suggest is keep her warm and quiet, keep her hydrated and try to get easily digestible foods into her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Need to know, has she ever laid eggs, if yes, when was the last time, what was the name of the antibiotic given and at what dose, does she ever have access to bare soil/earth or areas other/wild birds can leave their droppings, can you post up a photo of her and a photo of any fresh droppings... no matter what they look like, how is her breathing... how many breaths a minute is she taking when resting..in/out or up/down count as one breath, what is her weight? Where roughly are you located?

Here is how to post up photos: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Yes, she used to lay them every three days and then stopped right before she got sick. They put her on Enrofloxacin Suspension 30 mg/ml - instructed to give her .13ml 2x day for 14days. I did and she got better the first time. It took awhile but she did. This last time I tried it for a couple days and she wasn't getting any better. Poop is watery, has white, green and clear in it. Sometimes there some mucas stuff in it. Her breathing seems ok, but will got see if I can tell how many breaths. Don't know if I know how to tell. Weight is 225gr down from 300gr back in April. Located in Black Forest. Colorado outside of Colorado Springs. Took her to an avian vet in Colorado Springs. They have given up after running numerous tests with no luck.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

I was able to get her to drink some water from a seringe with is good.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

There are LOTS of wild birds around here in the forest. Haven't found any dead or sick. She is scared of other birds, so she stays away from them and isn't social. Just flies around us and watches us from the roof of the house or follows us on the ground. We live in the mountains at 7500ft in Colorado. She has never had a problem before living here and being outside. This just came on quickly both times.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> Yes, she used to lay them every three days and then stopped right before she got sick.


Not quite sure what you mean by this can you explain, was the vet aware that she suddenly stopped laying eggs and became sick? Photos?

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> There are LOTS of wild birds around here in the forest. Haven't found any dead or sick. She is scared of other birds, so she stays away from them and isn't social. Just flies around us and watches us from the roof of the house or follows us on the ground. We live in the mountains at 7500ft in Colorado. She has never had a problem before living here and being outside. This just came on quickly both times.


What I am seeking to find out is the possibility that she has the access to accidentally consume, either soil/earth and/or other bird's droppings.

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

I told vet she usually lays eggs, but hadn't recently. She didn't seemed concerned. I just emptied camera so I could take pics of her and droppings. Will do that next. Yes she does have access to consume soil/earth and probably other bird droppings outside. She doesn't hang out where they do though. She usually just hangs around in my shop or is on the roof. She does walk around the drive which is recycled asphalt. But she has been around it all for 2 yrs with no problems. Will go take some pics now and see if I can post them.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> I was able to get her to drink some water from a seringe with is good.


You can also give her some sugar water for energy, 1 teaspoon of sugar to 2 ounces of water (60mL), stir until dissolved, and give her a few CCs' at a time slowly (no more than 5mL = 1 teaspoon at any one time, no more than 2-3 times a day). Don't substitute this for water, as her body will see this as food and process it differently than water, she will still need plain water through the day as well.

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Must tell you that the darn deer mice have been in my shop alot this winter. The first time I found her, the vet didn't notice it, but I did, she seemed to have a red area around some feather bases on her neck. I have since checked the area and it is no longer red. I thought maybe the first time something had bitten her. But nothing showing on the outside of her body this time.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the information, I would suspect two things, one is a reproductive issue, such as a malformed egg stuck inside of her the is causing her issues and it could be a few other things associated with her reproductive organs and the second is the possibly she could have a worm infection and she could even have co-infections with both. That she first responded to antibiotic treatment with the same set of symptoms, but no longer does is kind of indicative of infection, but the infection is no longer sensitive to the Baytril (Enrofloxacin). With the worms we recently had a bird that went to the vet and they did a fecal exam, which showed no parasites, but was treated with a de-wormer and the next day passed worms, so a fecal exam, while useful, isn't always conclusive.

If she were mine, I would make a change in meds to two meds together one is called Trimethoprim/Sulfa and the other is called Metronidazole and ASAP, once I felt she had a bit of strength in her body I would de-worm her, but I would only use a very gentle de-wormer on her called Pyrantel Pamoate, you vet should have all these meds. The dosing for both the TMS and The Metronidazole would be 50mg/kg BID (twice a day) and the dosing for the Pyrantel would be 25mg/kg once, repeat in 14d.

Have a read of this thread, it is similar to yours:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ogo-female-doesnt-look-well-51233.html

Has she ever passed any funny looking things in her droppings, like in the thread above?


Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Pics of Henrietta*

I tried to take pics of her and last poop I saw which they look dried now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ladyobyrne,


A Pigeon would not lay an Egg every three days, so, something is not making sense there with that, can you try again on that one?


Do you have, or can you get, Metronidazole? And, 'DIVET' or 'Triple Sulfa'?


These might just be useful here...and or to use along with the Enroflaxyn.

Worms ( As Karyn wisely is suspecting ) seems a good call to me.

For which 'Moxidectin Plus' would be a very good de-Wormer to consider.



But, along with that, I suspect some other issues, also.


Does she get a good Grit normally?


Also...
Deer Mice are very dangerous to all other Creatures, and, with the advances in the Hantavirus, I would suggest you give the condition some careful thought for your own, and, anyone else's safety.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

I do have the metronidazole Oral Susp 50mg/ml and gave it to her for two days and she seemed worse. Was instructed to give .90cc 1xdy They sent off the test for parasites and it took a week to get back. It came back negative.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I see Phil has posted as well with his thoughts, I just wanted to mention that the Trimethoprim/Sulfa would be a drug of choice to treat the Coccidiosis and Chlamydia, as well as the reproductive issue I spoke of.

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

This pigeon DID lay one egg every three days. If I didn't take the egg, then in a couple days there would be two eggs. Weird or not, she DID lay an egg every three days. There are no pigeons around here either. She really wanted to be a mommy.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

She was checked for Coccidiosis. I don't know ifshe was checked for the Chlamydia though. She ran feces tests, blood test, crop test. All came up negative. We did retest her after the first go round on antibiotics and she was back in normal range.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, tests for endoparasites are notorious for being incomplete or not really showing what is there.

I would with-hold all medium to large seeds for the time being, and, only carefully allow very smal Seeds.

Ideally, no seeds and Tube Feeds of liquid Formulas for a while would be safest - since we do not realy know what is happenning in her GI and or what inflamation or obstructions may be present.

A Bird should not do 'worse' because of Matronidazole being given, so long as it were not an over dose...so, hard to know what that event meant, other than there are or likely are more than one issue going on, and, any single Med will not be addressing the wider picture of course.

Did the Vet test for Coccidiosis?


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't believe she was getting good grit on a regular basis. I do have some in there now with her and have had the last two days as I just thought of it. Never intended to own a pigeon, it just happened and now I am getting a "crash course" fast.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

So right now I have on hand the Enrofloxacin and Metranidazole. Should I restart both of those today? I can take out all but small seeds per your instructions. Today I haven't seen her try to eat anything. From what you are telling me, I should stop the bird formula feeding too. If she doesn't eat anything, what course should I take then?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> So right now I have on hand the Enrofloxacin and Metranidazole. Should I restart both of those today? I can take out all but small seeds per your instructions. Today I haven't seen her try to eat anything. From what you are telling me, I should stop the bird formula feeding too. If she doesn't eat anything, what course should I take then?


Myself, yes, I would start both meds, I am OK with the suggested dosing for the Enrofloxacin, but can you tell me what the strength of the Metronidazole is and what dose was suggested? I would do this for tonight, then tomorrow get the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and make the change to it and continue with the Metronidazole. What bird formula do you have, how are you mixing it and how are you feeding it and how much are you feeding each time and how often?

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Enrofloxacin Suspension 30mg/ml was giving .13ml 2x day for 14days. Should I give that and then the .09cc once a day of the Metronidazole?


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Sorry, the Metronidazole is 50mg/ml Oral Suspension. Was giving .09cc once a day.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

The vet gave me something, but don't know what brand, but it's gone. I picked up some Lafebers Instant Nutri-start Baby Bird Formula and that's what I have been trying to get down her twice a day. She doesn't like taking the meds or food. I got about 60cc of watered down formula into her the last this morning. Do I have to go to a vet to get the Trimethoprim/Sulfa or can I buy it somewhere? How often should I be doing the formula and how much? And how much of the Trimethoprim/Sulfa? I have plenty of seringes.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> Sorry, the Metronidazole is 50mg/ml Oral Suspension. Was giving .09cc once a day.


The 0.09cc is equal to 4.5mg, not very much, and at once a day dosing at that, which is fine as long as the proper dosing is given, this is really quite a small amount for a pigeon. For now, I would suggest you give her 0.25cc (this is roughly 5 drops of the 50mg/mL suspension), which will be 12.5mg, and you do this twice a day.

The Trimethoprim/Sulfa you will have to have prescribed, it can be purchased over the Internet, but will take a number of days to get to you and I think time is of the essence here. If you have a sympathetic doctor, the very same medicine is used for humans and it's called Bactrim or Septra and you will just need a few pills. I will help you with dosing, depending on the strength of these you can get. The dosing, as mentioned, would be 50mg/kg, twice a day.

With the formula, you have to be very careful with how you feed it or you can cause aspiration and then we'll be in big trouble. Also 60cc is too much to give just in the morning, this is about what she should have over the course of a day, small meals of about 10-15cc each time. Can you describe how you are feeding it too her?

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

I try and crack open her beak and just squirt it in between. I don't shove it down her throat at all. She eats it, but also shakes it off too, so some gets in and some doesn't. I will call vet first thing in the morning to see if I can get the Trimethoprim/Sulfa. If not, then I will see if I can find some Bactrim. Will you be online later? Might need to check back in with you on amount.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Dobato said:


> Thanks for the information, I would suspect two things, one is a reproductive issue, such as a malformed egg stuck inside of her the is causing her issues and it could be a few other things associated with her reproductive organs and the second is the possibly she could have a worm infection and she could even have co-infections with both. That she first responded to antibiotic treatment with the same set of symptoms, but no longer does is kind of indicative of infection, but the infection is no longer sensitive to the Baytril (Enrofloxacin). With the worms we recently had a bird that went to the vet and they did a fecal exam, which showed no parasites, but was treated with a de-wormer and the next day passed worms, so a fecal exam, while useful, isn't always conclusive.
> 
> If she were mine, I would make a change in meds to two meds together one is called Trimethoprim/Sulfa and the other is called Metronidazole and ASAP, once I felt she had a bit of strength in her body I would de-worm her, but I would only use a very gentle de-wormer on her called Pyrantel Pamoate, you vet should have all these meds. The dosing for both the TMS and The Metronidazole would be 50mg/kg BID (twice a day) and the dosing for the Pyrantel would be 25mg/kg once, repeat in 14d.
> 
> ...


No, her droppings don't look like that bird. Hers are normal color, but loose and getting stuck in feather underneath, so I am washing them out with lukewarm water.


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

ladyobyrne said:


> I do have the metronidazole Oral Susp 50mg/ml and gave it to her for two days and she seemed worse. Was instructed to give .90cc 1xdy They sent off the test for parasites and it took a week to get back. It came back negative.


looks like her wings are fine only that she have wet mouth and neck and under the tails~ if it's neither bacterial nor parasites like worms it could be virus.. but if she doesn't have viral infections too, you may have to boost her nutrition and imune system with high protein feeds that is proper for pegions~ i have also heard a mungbean is very healthy for pigeons~ is she thin and can you feel her ribs? that condition of pigeon happened to me before when i ran out of pigeon feeds and fed uncooked rice for many days...


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

ladyobyrne said:


> No, her droppings don't look like that bird. Hers are normal color, but loose and getting stuck in feather underneath, so I am washing them out with lukewarm water.


oh... this happen to my hens before that has trouble in laying eggs! as you have said she got negative on bacteria and parasites. this must be a reproductive health issue since it seems that this doesn't happen on cocks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ladyobyrne said:


> This pigeon DID lay one egg every three days. If I didn't take the egg, then in a couple days there would be two eggs. Weird or not, she DID lay an egg every three days. There are no pigeons around here either. She really wanted to be a mommy.




Are you saying she had been laying Ten eggs a Month?


Or, are you trying to say, she would lay Two Eggs, two or three days apart?

Or..?

One Egg every three days, is Ten Eggs a Month, 120 odd Eggs a Year.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lets do continue to consider the possibility of Worms or other Endoparasites...and, possibly some sort of Fungus troubles.

Is she willing to eat small whole Seeds on her own?


Because, if not, trying to get formula into her using a Syringe in her mouth, is both extremely dangerous, and likely to offend the Hen to where she will hate it, if she does not hate it already.

Proper Tube Feeding would be infniitely better and would also allow positive administration of any or all meds.

She is a very sweet looking little Hen...


I would with-hold Grit for the time being.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I had the same thoughts Phil, but I put it down to she meant an egg 2-3 days apart. As Phil has also pointed out, she needs food but the way you are doing it is a risky way to feed her as when you squirt the formula in, there is a real chance some will go down her windpipe and this may lead to aspiration pneumonia and this will not be good for her at all right now.

Until we figure something better out, why don't you try this, measure out a tablespoon of the powdered bird formula, to this add 1/2 a teaspoon of very fresh olive oil (or any fresh oil that has not been sitting on your shelf a long time to oxidize), stir this together until the oil saturates the powder, than add some warm water a bit at a time to this until the powder just comes together as a "dough" you can form into rounds small round balls, Form balls the size of small peas and "pop" them down her like in this video clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow. For every 10 balls you pop down she will need to drink about 5mL of water. See if you can do this every few hours 10 balls and 5mL of water. It would be best if she will drink on her own with you guiding her, here's how:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11

If she will not drink on her own, you can very slowly give her 5mL of water (make it tepid water), a few drops at a time to the side of her beak, immediately after feeding the formula balls. When doing so have her in your lap, with her head slightly tilted down, so any water she does not swallow rolls out instead of down her throat. Doing this will be safer for her, as if she were to somehow aspirate a bit of water, this will be a whole lot safer for her than if it were formula and no grit as mentioned.

Will wait to hear on how you made out on the meds.

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You could also give her calcium supplements in the form of a calcium syrup. If she is being treated with an antibiotic that calcium binds (eg Baytril) , then give them as far apart as possible.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Trying to find Trimethoprim/Sulfa this morning*



Dobato said:


> Thanks for the information, I would suspect two things, one is a reproductive issue, such as a malformed egg stuck inside of her the is causing her issues and it could be a few other things associated with her reproductive organs and the second is the possibly she could have a worm infection and she could even have co-infections with both. That she first responded to antibiotic treatment with the same set of symptoms, but no longer does is kind of indicative of infection, but the infection is no longer sensitive to the Baytril (Enrofloxacin). With the worms we recently had a bird that went to the vet and they did a fecal exam, which showed no parasites, but was treated with a de-wormer and the next day passed worms, so a fecal exam, while useful, isn't always conclusive.
> 
> If she were mine, I would make a change in meds to two meds together one is called Trimethoprim/Sulfa and the other is called Metronidazole and ASAP, once I felt she had a bit of strength in her body I would de-worm her, but I would only use a very gentle de-wormer on her called Pyrantel Pamoate, you vet should have all these meds. The dosing for both the TMS and The Metronidazole would be 50mg/kg BID (twice a day) and the dosing for the Pyrantel would be 25mg/kg once, repeat in 14d.
> 
> ...


Called vet this morning and they aren't sure they have the Trimethoprim. So called another bird vet and should get a call back. She does look better this morning. Passed alot of poop, which is cream and green, just diahrrea. No signs of anything weird.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> Called vet this morning and they aren't sure they have the Trimethoprim. So called another bird vet and should get a call back. She does look better this morning. Passed alot of poop, which is cream and green, just diahrrea. No signs of anything weird.


With the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, although not as common, each single medicine of this combo can be prescribed as a stand alone medicine, what I mean is both Trimethoprim and the Sulfonamide part of Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo can be had individually, you want to get the combination of the two medicines combined together (which is what is almost always prescribed, but I thought I should mention). Glad she seems a bit better this morning.

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Found a vet who has the meds which I will get in an hr. Also taking her into this other vet to make sure there is no egg stuck, just to rule it out.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Feeding*



Dobato said:


> I had the same thoughts Phil, but I put it down to she meant an egg 2-3 days apart. As Phil has also pointed out, she needs food but the way you are doing it is a risky way to feed her as when you squirt the formula in, there is a real chance some will go down her windpipe and this may lead to aspiration pneumonia and this will not be good for her at all right now.
> 
> Until we figure something better out, why don't you try this, measure out a tablespoon of the powdered bird formula, to this add 1/2 a teaspoon of very fresh olive oil (or any fresh oil that has not been sitting on your shelf a long time to oxidize), stir this together until the oil saturates the powder, than add some warm water a bit at a time to this until the powder just comes together as a "dough" you can form into rounds small round balls, Form balls the size of small peas and "pop" them down her like in this video clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow. For every 10 balls you pop down she will need to drink about 5mL of water. See if you can do this every few hours 10 balls and 5mL of water. It would be best if she will drink on her own with you guiding her, here's how:
> 
> ...


OK, I will try what you said above and see what I can do.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> Found a vet who has the meds which I will get in an hr. Also taking her into this other vet to make sure there is no egg stuck, just to rule it out.


OK good, tell them the dosing for pigeons is 50mg/kg BID and they'll know what to give you. The xray is a good idea, but two things, some vets like to give general anesthesia when taking xrays and with her in a weakened condition this would not be the best plan, see if they can manage without doing this, or with just light sedation, the other is that with reproductive problems it is not always about a fully formed, stuck egg, but also artifacts/pockets of infection the reproductive system can produce, so if your vet does not see a lot xrays of birds, there is the possibility they may miss something subtle, other than a formed egg.

Do you have enough Metronidazole to dose at the new amounts for at least a few weeks? If not, get some more (also make sure you get sufficient Trimethoprim/Sulfa for a few weeks as well). It may not be a bad idea to try her on an anti-inflammatory/pain med for a little while, as some of this internal stuff can have them in some discomfort, see if the vet will also prescribe you some Meloxicam (Metacam) for her .10mg/kg, once a day.

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

pdpbison said:


> Are you saying she had been laying Ten eggs a Month?
> 
> 
> Or, are you trying to say, she would lay Two Eggs, two or three days apart?
> ...


On a average she would lay 1 egg every 3 days and I would have to take them away. If I left it in with her, she would sit on it and then lay another egg so I would find two under her by the end of the week.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Feeding*



pdpbison said:


> Lets do continue to consider the possibility of Worms or other Endoparasites...and, possibly some sort of Fungus troubles.
> 
> Is she willing to eat small whole Seeds on her own?
> 
> ...


I did manage to get some "pea" size formed formula balls down her this morning. Wasn't easy, but she swollowed them. Then gave her some sugar water afterward. When I put her in the cage, she did try twice to eat a seed or two. Then she did drink some water out of her bowl once.

Finally got the Trimethoprim and will start it now. Have appt tom with avian vet to check for a stuck egg. Just want to rule it out.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*How much*



ladyobyrne said:


> OK, I will try what you said above and see what I can do.


How much Trimethoprim should I give her in cc's? I finally got some from a vet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> How much Trimethoprim should I give her in cc's? I finally got some from a vet.


Good with the formula balls, they will get easier to "pop" once you get the hang of the method and holding her, if you use a small towel to restrain her some, it will help as well, glad she is making an attempt at pecking and still drinking as well.

The amount/dose of the Trimethoprim/Sulfa will depend on the strength it is. What does it say on the bottle?

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I can tell by the feathering that she's been sick for quite awhile, but has been hiding it from you (they do that). If a "bars" pigeon" doesn't actually have almost perfectly aligned "bars", then it means that they were somehow not doing too well at the time of their last molt. When it's a hen, it's very common for them to have a reproductive infection. Anyhow, I've had better luck with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combos than just about any other medication in those circumstances.

Another thing that you can do is hang some kind of heat-lamp type of bulb in such a way that she can get under it (as close as a foot or so) or not without it causing a firehazard to the house. That will help her deal with the energy balance of trying to fight whatever this is.

Pidgey


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Your Henrieta seems like a very special bird and good friend~she is in my prayers.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Dosage*



Dobato said:


> Good with the formula balls, they will get easier to "pop" once you get the hang of the method and holding her, if you use a small towel to restrain her some, it will help as well, glad she is making an attempt at pecking and still drinking as well.
> 
> The amount/dose of the Trimethoprim/Sulfa will depend on the strength it is. What does it say on the bottle?
> 
> Karyn


I looked on bottle and believe me or not, it doesn't say the strength. Was given a message "5 drops per day", "but you can't overdose"? So I am kind of at a lose. I did give her the equivelant of what I thought would be "5 drops". If you have any suggestions or can help me, that would be great. Just checked in on her the second time and she has been doing something with the seeds in her bowl because they are all over and in her drinking water too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ladyobyrne said:


> On a average she would lay 1 egg every 3 days and I would have to take them away. If I left it in with her, she would sit on it and then lay another egg so I would find two under her by the end of the week.


I have never heard of a Pigeon Hen laying so many Eggs like that.

It might have been best to get her a Mate and just let her raise a couple Babys once in a while.


Anyway...please be posting daily poop images!


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*eggs*



pdpbison said:


> I have never heard of a Pigeon Hen laying so many Eggs like that.
> 
> It might have been best to get her a Mate and just let her raise a couple Babys once in a while.
> 
> ...


Husband would kill me if I got her a mate and they had babies. He is not a pigeon lover. Just doesn't like all the poop she leaves around. However, if I can get her thru this, her days "outside and free" will probably be over as to not take anymore chances of her getting sick. She has turned into my million dollar pigeon. I already have two million dollar ducks that I spent a bunch on. But my animals are my babies and I will do anything to save them.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> I looked on bottle and believe me or not, it doesn't say the strength. Was given a message "5 drops per day", "but you can't overdose"? So I am kind of at a lose. I did give her the equivelant of what I thought would be "5 drops". If you have any suggestions or can help me, that would be great. Just checked in on her the second time and she has been doing something with the seeds in her bowl because they are all over and in her drinking water too.


I am pretty sure I know the strength of the suspension is, but can you call them tomorrow and confirm that the strength is 240mg/5mL or another way to put it, 48mg/mL. Trimethoprim/Sulfa is a medicine that you can do once a day dosing with, but for this particular medicine, and for what we are I think trying to treat for, my preference would be to do twice a day dosing, q12h. FYI, each .10cc increment on a 1cc syringe is equal to about 2 drops, so to give 5 drops you would give 0.25cc. If the strength is as I think, I would like you to be giving her 0.20cc (4 drops) twice a day. Glad she seems to be getting more interested in food and water.

Karyn


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Dosage*



Dobato said:


> Thanks for the information, I would suspect two things, one is a reproductive issue, such as a malformed egg stuck inside of her the is causing her issues and it could be a few other things associated with her reproductive organs and the second is the possibly she could have a worm infection and she could even have co-infections with both. That she first responded to antibiotic treatment with the same set of symptoms, but no longer does is kind of indicative of infection, but the infection is no longer sensitive to the Baytril (Enrofloxacin). With the worms we recently had a bird that went to the vet and they did a fecal exam, which showed no parasites, but was treated with a de-wormer and the next day passed worms, so a fecal exam, while useful, isn't always conclusive.
> 
> If she were mine, I would make a change in meds to two meds together one is called Trimethoprim/Sulfa and the other is called Metronidazole and ASAP, once I felt she had a bit of strength in her body I would de-worm her, but I would only use a very gentle de-wormer on her called Pyrantel Pamoate, you vet should have all these meds. The dosing for both the TMS and The Metronidazole would be 50mg/kg BID (twice a day) and the dosing for the Pyrantel would be 25mg/kg once, repeat in 14d.
> 
> ...


Karyn-Thank you for all the info. Can you confirm to me how many cc's of the Metronidazole I should be giving her of the 50mg? Gave her more "pea size" formula balls tonight. Gave her a few drops of water. Seems about the same. Will let you know what vet says tomorrow late morning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ladyobyrne said:


> Husband would kill me if I got her a mate and they had babies. He is not a pigeon lover. Just doesn't like all the poop she leaves around. However, if I can get her thru this, her days "outside and free" will probably be over as to not take anymore chances of her getting sick. She has turned into my million dollar pigeon. I already have two million dollar ducks that I spent a bunch on. But my animals are my babies and I will do anything to save them.



Ohhhh...

Lol...


Sorry to hear...


But, far as getting sick from being outside - barring extreme or extrordinary conditions, they probably have about the same chance or greater even, of getting sick if kept in lofts or indoors or in aviaries, as they would if Wild or free to roam.


If a good diet is available in the wild, or in the wild and augmentd by kindly people, they would tend to be very healthy in the Wild or in free forraging privledges...whereas, kept Birds often suffer from dietary deficiencies, lack of direct Sunshine, lack of exercise, household toxins/pollutants, stress, frustration, and, other shortcomings.


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Freedom*



pdpbison said:


> Ohhhh...
> 
> Lol...
> 
> ...


I would really hate to keep her in. She loves flying around and walking around in the woods. She also likes to watch us from the eaves of the house. She follows, on foot mind you, when we take all the dogs for a walk. Then if I tell her to "hurry up" she then will fly to the shop and wait for us. Sure hope the little gal makes it as she has a special place in my heart. She is trying. Hopefully God will let her stay her on earth a little longer to enjoy the company here that loves her.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If she had been grazing where, say, Chicken poop or manure or Dog poops ( Cat poop would probably be among the worst possible ) or heavy Bird poops or other Nitrogen sources are on the bare Earth, there are illnesses, Micoplasmas in particular, which can occur...as well as various kinds of internal parasites.


She sounds like ( and looks like ) a wonderful little Hen, for sure.


They can be so bright and savvy in their way, like you describe with the 'Hurry up!'...and be genuinely one of the Family in every way.


So...



Karyn, Pidgey, anyone else?


What so we think is bothering this sweet little Hen?



Oviduct infection?


Micoplasmas?

Aspirgillosis?

Worms?

Giardia? or Trichomoniasis or other Protozoan illness?

Or...?



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> Karyn-Thank you for all the info. Can you confirm to me how many cc's of the Metronidazole I should be giving her of the 50mg? Gave her more "pea size" formula balls tonight. Gave her a few drops of water. Seems about the same. Will let you know what vet says tomorrow late morning.


With the Metronidazole, I did give you instructions on how much to give, here it is again: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=579431&postcount=26 (I post the link to remind you of my thoughts). Also, it's important that you guide her beak into the tepid water to keep her well hydrated (water is also needed to digest the formula balls). When I mentioned a few drops of water at a time, I meant until you get a total of 5mL of water into her each time, there are about 20 drops in 1mL of fluids, so you will need to get 100-120 drops of water into her (gave a range to account for spillage). She should be getting about 30-40cc of water a day right now (could even be a bit higher) between what she is drinking on her own and you supplementing.

Phil, I personally think reproductive issues, and not to speak for him, but I think Pidgey might have alluded to the same with his comments (but the combo of meds she is on will cover a bunch of other things). I do think she should be wormed with Pyrantel when she gets some strength back as a precaution, since she has free access to earth/soil.

Ladyobyrne, I mentioned another medicine, a few posts ago, called Meloxicam (Metacam) to help with any pain and inflammation, did you ask your vet about prescribing you some?


Karyn


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

NayNay said:


> Your Henrieta seems like a very special bird and good friend~she is in my prayers.


me too~ i have my heart for feral pigeons since they don't have home in cities and places where there are feral pigeons flocking... in our place there are no ferals and all have homes... so i hope this pigeon could pass this crisis ^^


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

*Finally Found Problem!*

I took Henrietta in to a different Avian vet this morning and immediately was told she had an egg stuck. They are taking immediate proceedure to help her pass it and if she doesn't pass it within the next 30 min, they will go in and remove it. I am relieved to know what was wrong with her. Thank you! Thankyou!! for all your suggestions, help. I have learned so much about pigeons thru all your messages and will continue to read and learn from this great site "Pigeon Talk". You all have been so helpful and so nice. I just want you to know how much I appreciate it all. Please say some "pigeon prayers" for Henrietta that she will pull thru. Good news is she was eating seeds on her own this morning!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

It's good to hear you finally got a diagnosis, just a suggestion, but I myself would still keep Henrietta on both the Metronidazole and the Trimethoprim/Sulfa for 7-10 days after either she passes the egg or they remove it (ovocentesis). I will say a prayer that things go well for your little one, even the short time she was on the new antibiotics will have helped some, glad she is pecking at seeds.

Karyn


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ladyobyrne said:


> I took Henrietta in to a different Avian vet this morning and immediately was told she had an egg stuck. They are taking immediate proceedure to help her pass it and if she doesn't pass it within the next 30 min, they will go in and remove it. I am relieved to know what was wrong with her. Thank you! Thankyou!! for all your suggestions, help. I have learned so much about pigeons thru all your messages and will continue to read and learn from this great site "Pigeon Talk". You all have been so helpful and so nice. I just want you to know how much I appreciate it all. Please say some "pigeon prayers" for Henrietta that she will pull thru. Good news is she was eating seeds on her own this morning!


GOOD to hear!!!

PLEASE keep us updated and a prayer has gone out for Henrietta!


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## ladyobyrne (Jun 5, 2011)

Dobato said:


> It's good to hear you finally got a diagnosis, just a suggestion, but I myself would still keep Henrietta on both the Metronidazole and the Trimethoprim/Sulfa for 7-10 days after either she passes the egg or they remove it (ovocentesis). I will say a prayer that things go well for your little one, even the short time she was on the new antibiotics will have helped some, glad she is pecking at seeds.
> 
> Karyn


Just had the previous vets office call me back. They said the egg must have just gotten stuck and there is no way it could be stuck for more than 24hrs without killing the bird. They seem to think there was an underlying problem and it wasn't the egg, but now it is the egg and if I would have brought her back in they surely would have felt the egg. Between you and me, I don't think they want to admit they missed it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If your pigeons is laying eggs too frequently it will be depleting its calcium very quickly. Replace the eggs with plastic ones and let her sit on them as long as possible, that ought to reduce the number of eggs that she lays. Also give her calcium supplements regularly, they strenthen the muscles and improve the quality of the egg so it is less likely to become stuck.

As for the first vet not recognising the problem....a few days ago someone wrote to me about her pigeon being ill. It sounded like egg binding, so I told her to give it calcium and to take it to the vet...she took it to the vet, he said there was no egg and he did not think there was one coming....she took the pigeon home, gave it calcium and an hour and a half later the egg came....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ladyobyrne said:


> Just had the previous vets office call me back. They said the egg must have just gotten stuck and there is no way it could be stuck for more than 24hrs without killing the bird. They seem to think there was an underlying problem and it wasn't the egg, but now it is the egg and if I would have brought her back in they surely would have felt the egg. Between you and me, I don't think they want to admit they missed it.


What your vet said is true, but they left out some information. Yes, a bird can die if an egg does get stuck in the cloaca, as the bird's waste needs to pass through this area as well and if there is an egg blocking things up, no waste can pass and the bird then dies from being able to eliminate urine and feces. This happened a while ago to one of our other member's birds, and the real waring to this is the cessation of any meaningful droppings. 

However, if an egg gets stuck a little further up in the oviduct area, waste can still pass and while the bird is still in trouble, it will not die within the time frame your vet stated. One of the reasons why eggs get stuck in the oviduct is that the egg is poorly formed, having a soft shell, usually from the over laying of eggs and the lack of calcium supplementation. When the oviduct muscles contract against the egg to send the egg further down, and out, they meet a egg who's soft shell does not give the needed resistance in order to be moved.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi l o b,


It is quite difficult to palpate for a delayed Egg which is still too high in the Oviduct...so, I would not be too hard on Vet No. 1 on that score.

The Egg may even have come down a little more by the time Henrietta was brought to Vet No. 2, even...


I expect she is felling a LOT better now!

They need Vitamin D from getting direct, outdoors Sunshine now and then, in order to be correctly assimilate available Calcium and other Mineral sources. And, since she gets ot be an ouside Bird, things would have been good in that department.


The Hen's Calcium resevior is her Skeleton - Calcium, Magnesium, Boron, etc, when being assimilated well, are added to her Skeleton, and, drawn as needed for producing the Egg Shells.

Minor infections in the Oviduct can also cause problems with passing Eggs, even if everything else were in good order.


Very glad to hear the news, and, I guess...are we waiting on the 2nd Egg then?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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