# Adult pigeon (sick + flaccid legs + cat attack)



## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

*Adult pigeon (sick + flaccid legs + cat attack) #photos updated#*

Hon is an adult male in a wild flock that I feed daily. Now he has lost half of his tail feather, unable to walk, and unable to fly. 

3 weeks ago, Hon showed symptoms of limping. His left leg bent backward, but right leg remained normal. He was only a bit clumsy and could still hop briskly to get food. I observed closely but noticed no string injury or apparent wound in his left leg.

His situation gradually deteriorated. About 2 weeks ago, his right leg also bent backward. He could still move, very difficultly and slowly, with help of his wings paddling on the ground. Nevertheless, he could still fly.

Then 10 days ago he even totally lost his ability to walk. In the past he was not so intimate to me, but now since he was not able to compete for food, he learnt to fly to me for food. Even my hand reaches very near him to deliver a pile of seeds, he is not afraid. Other pgis keep distance from me, so Hon could enjoy all seeds I rationed for him. Very clever of him.

This situation lasted for about 1 wk. All that time he was eating well, but poop ball began to accumulate and stuck on his bottom. And once Hon was raped very violently by other 3 adult males, when I was too busy feeding the major flock and watching out for the security guards(who ban feeding). But Hon survived the rape and seemed to be OK.

Then 3 days ago, I noticed Hon helplessly on the ground, as he used to be. But this time he cannot fly, with half of his tail gone. I could catch him as easily as stretching out my hands, and although he wanted to escape, he could hardly move. I examined closely and spotted that the little holes from where the tail feathers grew were bleeding.

Apparently, the problem with his legs is not related to trauma. His legs are normal in shape, with all toes intact. It seems that he cannot apply energy to his leg. For the gone of the tail, I suspect the cats. Hon uses to take rest besides the bush to stay away from the bullies, but it is where cats active and launch attack. Since Hon is so clumsy, it is not surprised he falls prey to the cats.

In fact, I never thought of the need to take Hon for shelter before he became unable to fly. I thought each day he approached me for food, ate until full, flew back to nesting area and returned the next day. This pattern has persisted for at least 14 days. It was really shocking to see him totally lost flying ability over the night. The day before he was still perfectly able to fly just as a healthy pgi.

I dunno the loss of flying ability is caused by disease or the loss of tail feathers. I doubt if there is a virus that renders muscles flaccid, is spreading from Hon left leg, to right leg and then to his wings. Or is it plainly due to the cat attack. If I nurse him until his tail fully regenerates ( around one month? ), will he be able to fly and be released? Or even with completed tail, the virus still disables Hon flying ability? Then I would need to nurse Hon for the rest of his life.

Hon reminded me of Siu Wan back in 2005. Siu Wan was about half year old when whe developed such situation, lasting for about 2 weeks, and then she vanished and was never seen again. The day she last showed up she was still eating properly. 

As I mentioned before that my mum would kill me if I take pgi home, I can only keep Hon in a secret place where I store my bird seeds.The place is partly illuminated at night so Hon may not get enough sleep. Everyday when I feed the flock I bring Hon out for a sunbathe and let him see his fellows, hope that this can alleviate his fear. 

Up till now, Hon is still eating and drinking enough. His poops are smelly and light green. He can only sit all day. I would appreciate any advice to improve Hon situation (i.e. speed up his recovery to walk and fly again). Also, I would like to learn how to get rid of the poop ball (pulling it off will make Hon painful?) 

My flock has been scourged enough recently. At this moment, there are 2 pgis with mouth tumour, 1 pgi with PMV, 1 pgi with droopy wing and I have picked up 4 dead bodies this week. For some I really cannot help, but for Hon I have not given up hope yet. What kind of disease is it? Chance of recovery? Grateful for your advice.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well if he is sick with disease, he really should have been caught and medicated way before now. He may have been cat caught, in which case he will probably die of an infection as he wasn't medicated. He really needs to be brought inside and kept warm, and monitored and medicated if you want to save him. It could be many different things, but he needs inside warmth, safety and medicating. If you can't do that, then I don't see how you are going to be able to help him. Pigeons hide a sickness until they are so sick that they can not hide it any longer, and this has gone on for a while, so he needs meds immediately, and to be brought in.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Your pigeon must have slayed leg also. I could be corrected if he is still young. How old are you. Can you have a grown up help you. Pigeons do not transmit disease to humans as long as you wash your hand after you touch them. May be you could talk to your mom to care for them until they are healthy and them they can be released back outside.
You have a good heart


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Well if he is sick with disease, he really should have been caught and medicated way before now. He may have been cat caught, in which case he will probably die of an infection as he wasn't medicated. He really needs to be brought inside and kept warm, and monitored and medicated if you want to save him. It could be many different things, but he needs inside warmth, safety and medicating. If you can't do that, then I don't see how you are going to be able to help him. Pigeons hide a sickness until they are so sick that they can not hide it any longer, and this has gone on for a while, so he needs meds immediately, and to be brought in.


It is not I dont want to take care of the sick pgis, but my resources available cannot allow me to do so. Not to mention the expenses of consulting a vet or buying medicines, but I cannot even offer him place for shelter. Where I am now putting him is a public place, not private.The place is rather deserted and hard to access. But if some people (e.g. janitors) make their way there and detest the pgi, he can simply throw the poor guy away. 

What specific I can do at this stage? The temp. will drop to below 10 c in a few days. Should I put him in a cardboard box to keep him warm? But will being in such a dark environment cause him stress?


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> Your pigeon must have slayed leg also. I could be corrected if he is still young. How old are you. Can you have a grown up help you. Pigeons do not transmit disease to humans as long as you wash your hand after you touch them. May be you could talk to your mom to care for them until they are healthy and them they can be released back outside.
> You have a good heart


Hon has been a healthy adult. The problems with his legs are not inborn. His legs have been as normal as any other pgi until he gradually shows the symptoms...limping, then reluctance to walk...now like a paralyzed patient who cannot fly or walk...What encourages me is that he still seems to eat well. But his poops are not healthy at all. I am 23 years old. I understand very well that they dont pass the diseases to humans. I have been feeding wild pgis for 9 years since I was in my secondary school. But because I still live in same flat with my parents, and my mom believes what the government says about avian flu, she always discourages me to feed them. Even if she spots a pack of seeds or bread crump in my bag, she would throw them into the rubbish bin. So how can I bring him home...I can only say that the government propaganda to label pgis as diseases transmitting enemies is very successful and people are brainwashed. My mum will not listen to me. Previously there had been many pigeons dying of PMV and it makes me suffer watching them die. I want to help Hon to overcome this sickness. What specific is this kind disease known as? What can I do? Have you come across similar pgis? I think I will post some photos tonight (Asia time) of his legs, his poops and his look. Thank you for guiding me.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

You can help them with the resources you have. But they have to be in a safe place. And when i say that i mean in your home. Of course the need a box with cloth or newspaper underneath, warm place and food and water.
Can you feed them by hand defrosted peas? If they are in dark all the time , they cannot see to eat. Don't you have a balcony? You can put them in the boxes in your balcony cut some holes in the cardboard box and make sure the box had a lid on.
You don't necessary need to take them to vet. Human medicine works well if we know what they suffer..


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Avian flu is not transmitted through pigeons. They are many lab research done and pigeons are the least susceptible bird to get avian flu. You should inform your mother and may be get her involved with us. I am sure she has a good heart as you.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Look of Hon. He can only remain seated like that for whole day.










Half of his tail is gone.



















Another look.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

His poops....dark green, quite solid, with white toppings. Is it OK?










His legs are flaccid, cannot stand straight(or even cannot stand), but I cannot observe any external trauma or wound










His poops gather and form a ball. I want to remove it, but it firmly attaches to the feather. I am afraid that pulling it off make him painful. Can I let it stay? Will the ball make him uncomfortable?










When he wants to move, he can only use his wing to crawl on the ground.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Birds seeds I put for him. May I ask what is the English name of each component in the seeds? Which one is defrosted pea? These are the standardized pigeon food in Hong Kong. I buy them at room temperature, and no need to be refrigerated or defrosted.










The place where Hon is taking shelter. A string is very gently attached to avoid him from escaping.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Other points to note.

1. Hon is having an enormous appetite. He is eating nearly 200 pieces of seeds and bread crump everyday. Is it a good sign? But will excessive eating cause him adverse effect?

2. I bring Hon out to join the flock every afternoon when I conduct the feed. I notice him shiver. 

3. Sometimes he closes him eyes in the daytime to take a rest. Does this tell that he is not getting enough sleep at night ? The place where I shelter him is not completely dark at night. It still gets dim light. Will this affect his sleeping quality?

4. I wonder if I should put him in a cardboard box. The advantage is that no string is needed. Placing him in the box means darkness for >20 hours except when I take him out to join the flock. Each time I finish the feed I bring him back. Will being in darkness for excessive hours cause depression or other psychological effect?


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> You can help them with the resources you have. But they have to be in a safe place. And when i say that i mean in your home. Of course the need a box with cloth or newspaper underneath, warm place and food and water.
> Can you feed them by hand defrosted peas? If they are in dark all the time , they cannot see to eat. Don't you have a balcony? You can put them in the boxes in your balcony cut some holes in the cardboard box and make sure the box had a lid on.
> You don't necessary need to take them to vet. Human medicine works well if we know what they suffer..


I don't have a balcony. The population density here is so high. A balcony is a luxury. Although I am not putting him at my home, I am fairly optimistic that the place is safe. At least it is safe from cats. For human, it is quite inaccessible and I have to bear risk getting there. So other humans also deem the place dangerous and avoid getting there. You know, I am very eager to bring him home. I want to accommodate all the sick birds that I come across. But this will end up in a major conflict with my Mum. She is a cleaning freak. I am 100% sure that pigeons will not transmit disease of any kind to me. I love them, and I treat them well. How will they pass me disease? I also know about the experiment of injecting high dosage of h5N1 viruses into a pigeon, but she still does not contract the flu. This is my belief, but it is hard to convince my mum.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I love you for your love of pigeons.

Let me answer a few questions and bring my opinion in.

Defrosted peas were only if the pigeon was not eating on its own and you had to handfeed him. Eating 200 seeds per day is quite a lot, but her poop looks ok. The seeds you give are good, corn , millo seed, wheat..Does he also drinks lots of water?

You can remove the poopy lump with warm water, soap and cloth. Dip the cloth in the soap and water and keep rubbing gently but firmly on the lump. It will get moisture and it will fall of in small pieces.

His legs are not splayed as i thought. Does she move her tail? It could be a spinal nerve damage or what it's called broken tail bone. Most of pigeons get healed with good rest, warm bed, food and water. You can get a cloth/towel , roll it and make it like a doughnut; place the pigeon in the middle of it. It will be very comfortable for him and he will not put any pressure on his wings to rest or swing from one side to the other and it's good for the spine nerve.

Your crate looks good to just put it on top of her. Is it too low? You can have a cardboard box with a lid and still get sunlight through it , if you cut out long strips on the sides and lid of the box. I think it's better in a safe/enclosed place than tied and "free" from being enclosed.

So much caring of you to take him out with the other pigeons. Amazing care! He is getting that way the sun he needs and hopefully the joy to see the others. I don't think it;s depressing for him that he sleeps too much. I assume he is sick and he needs rest...healthy ferals also rests and enjoy taking naps, especially if are well fed.

What kinds of antibiotics (human antibiotics) do you have access?

Thank you for the updates.


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

*Things that I know about bulgy stuff on pigeons*

I don't know the answer to a lot of pigeon medication questions, but this is what I have done, and not once, and always with success, to pigeons burdened by bulges of different materials on their bodies. In the situation you described, I wouldn't have left him a minute with that bulge. As it is right under his tail it burdens his directional balance as hell. And you do not have to wet him or pull his feathers together with the poop ball. Simply use a pair of very good scissors and extremely carefully cut the material off his body. I had once a case of a pigeon with legs burdened in balls of hardened tar and as soon as I could catch him (he was a visitor pigeon, not mine) I did it. Boy how happy he flew afterways. In your case you can have him in your hands at this very moment as we speak. If your mom does not understand your love for this little guy and would not help you by holding it during the "surgery" of the poop, do it yourself bandaging him with legs inside the bandage and hold him between your tights in a sitting position. From how you speak you are a girl, am I right? So your skirt would help. Watch out not to cut his skin. After your operation is successful (you might use a friend, don't you have anyone to trust with this pigeon love of yours to help you with getting rid of the poop ball?), let us know how he started or not to fly as he used to. Yes, pigeon love is sometimes a luxury, not everybody can afford it But I think that not because of the missing feathers he could not fly well and _then_ he got a poop ball but viceversa. Or both in a cycle that you should break. I might be wrong but you should get rid of the poop ball first to tell me I am or not wrong. Good luck.

PS: I would choose a cage instead of a "gently attached" string. JUST BECAUSE of a protection need chilled by this doggy type confinement.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> Does he also drinks lots of water?
> 
> His legs are not splayed as i thought. Does she move her tail? It could be a spinal nerve damage or what it's called broken tail bone. Most of pigeons get healed with good rest, warm bed, food and water. You can get a cloth/towel , roll it and make it like a doughnut; place the pigeon in the middle of it. It will be very comfortable for him and he will not put any pressure on his wings to rest or swing from one side to the other and it's good for the spine nerve.
> 
> ...


Hon has not drunk a lot of water. I am worried a bit.

I have not made a close observation whether he moves her tail. Every time when he tries to move, he is trying very hard with all his wings and legs (and probably tail as well?). But I notice even when he tries his best his leg cannot straighten up and is still bent. I will watch closely this afternoon if he moves his tail or not. I tend to believe that it is spinal nerve damage since his left leg, right leg and wings become futile in a sequence.

Yes the crate may be too low if a put on top of her. I will try your idea with a modified cardboard box and rolled towel this afternoon. I will post images for you to check if I get your idea. 

Yes I think it is important not to make a pigeon feel isolated. By letting him see his friends everyday, hopefully this can give him determination that he will recover soon and join them flying freely again. 

So far I have not tried any antibiotics. Would you have any advice? I have fed wild pgis for many years but I am really a new comer when talking about medication for sick birds. But with an English medicine name, I am not sure whether I can buy it or have to translate the Chinese medicine name first. This may be a possible problem. In addition, if it is human antibiotics, I am not sure whether I can buy from local pharmacy or I need a doctor prescription first. 

I will update tonight Asian time again. Tonnes of thanks for your advice.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

nitamircela said:


> From how you speak you are a girl, am I right? So your skirt would help. Watch out not to cut his skin. After your operation is successful (you might use a friend, don't you have anyone to trust with this pigeon love of yours to help you with getting rid of the poop ball?), let us know how he started or not to fly as he used to. Yes, pigeon love is sometimes a luxury, not everybody can afford it But I think that not because of the missing feathers he could not fly well and _then_ he got a poop ball but viceversa. Or both in a cycle that you should break. I might be wrong but you should get rid of the poop ball first to tell me I am or not wrong. Good luck.


I have already removed that bulky item with warm water and a pair of scissors. Over 90% of the mass has been removed. Some remnants still adhere to the feathers. If I need to remove completely, I need to give him a bath. But I dont want to wet him because the weather is not warm. But after the removal he shows no immediate improvement in terms of flying or walking. By the way, I am a boy.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Yesterday (8-1-2012 Asian time) situation:

1. Hon is shivering very badly. Not good signs right? In the past few days, he only shivered a bit. But yesterday, he was nearly shivering ceaselessly. Is it because he is feeling cold, or thrilled and frightened? Weather here is about 17-20 C in daytime, and 13-15 C at night and dawn.

2. His appetite dwindled a bit. But still eats more than 100 grains yesterday.

3. I dont think he is drinking enough water. Each time I give him water he immediately plunges his head into the water (as if he is very thirsty), take one or a few large sips, and then refuses to drink anymore.

4. His poops...the amount is not reasonable when compared to the amount of food he intakes. Constipation?


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi Lonlive Pigeon,

I have been reading your stories and I'm so touched by your determination to help your piggie friends. It must be so difficult to not be able to care for them at your home and not have your mother's support in this great passion of yours. 

I have been feeding a little group in my apartment for a few years and I wanted to share with you some information about food that I feel has helped my pigeons. I always give them lots of peas because they are loaded with protein and this is very important for their immune system. I didn't notice any peas in the photo of the mix that you give them. The frozen green peas are good when they are sick because they are soft. 

I buy whole dried green peas in Indian food stores and they are called "blue peas". I'm sure you can find them in Hong Kong in an Indian sector of the city. If not, give them green split peas or yellow split peas, you can find these in any supermarket. I find that my pigeons who eat the most peas are the ones that don't get sick or recover really fast and I think Hon would really benefit from the protein in the peas.

I was going to include a photo of the peas but it's too large, sorry.


I hope this is of some help to you


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## nitamircela (Oct 28, 2008)

I am happy that you removed it. Also, can't you buy or obtain somehow a larger cage than a cardboard or short crate you have? As for medecines' names in Chinese, try typing the Baytryl or whatsoever medecine the wonderful ladies suggested at keywords internet surfing on a Chinese google page. Meantime, if you are SURE that he has an infection and not sure what to give him, try some homeopathic treatment, garlic, ACV, etc, not to mention that the Chinese homeopathic medecine choices are hugely larger than anyone's else on Earth. The medecines choices are like with your choice of keeping him where you keep him, you do the best THAT YOU CAN. And Whitetail is right about the peas, for example though in my regular seeds mix peas are not included as my pigeons never like dry peas, when lately I had two little guys with problems I fed them with scalded frosted peas removing their skin. If you have peas baby food, try it with a syringe. Sorry that I misjudged you as girl from the delicate care you have for Hon (I misjudged one of my pigeon as girl as well until yesterday when he let me know of the contrary), fact that you are a boy raises your care appreciation even more.

PS: Try to move his legs gently while soaked in warm water (just the legs): do you feel any rigidity or flexibility?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Can you buy some vitamin CALCIUM & D3 pill. Buy the ones that have the smallest quantity in one pill. Then you can cut the pill in let's say 20 mg and pop one piece a day in her mouth.
Baytril is Enrofloxacin. Google Enrofloxacin in China..may be you can get again the pill (it's better pill than liquid since it's not easy to use syringe)


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Total amount of poops he got overnight. Is it too little? Possible constipation?










Some yellowish liquid is present in his poops. Not a healthy sign? From some experience, healthy poops do not smell. But Hon is giving poops with normal shape and color, however with unpleasant smell.

















His look today.









Still eating good, but drinking very limited water
Also, the shivering is less today.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

I have got a box. There are holes so sunlight can shine in. No string is needed now. The box may not be tall enough. I will try getting a larger one.










Got a towel as suggested by Dima.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

whitetail said:


> Hi Lonlive Pigeon,
> 
> I have been feeding a little group in my apartment for a few years and I wanted to share with you some information about food that I feel has helped my pigeons. I always give them lots of peas because they are loaded with protein and this is very important for their immune system. I didn't notice any peas in the photo of the mix that you give them. The frozen green peas are good when they are sick because they are soft.
> 
> ...


Yes I have also read your story about your flock in the balcony. Glad that they have overcome PMV. 

For the peas, I have got some green peas in the mixture.These are what the pgis most favourite of and always pick all the green peas instantly as I scatter the seeds. I will upload a photo later to verify if these green peas match what you specify. And I think I know what green split peas are. The green coating is gone, and the interior is yellow, right? Sometimes I feed these to them too. By the way, would you plx teach me how to make defrosted peas? Is it soaking the peas in water, then freezing it in refrigerator, and taking out for the peas to thaw to room temperature?

Thank you for your advice.



nitamircela said:


> Meantime, if you are SURE that he has an infection and not sure what to give him, try some homeopathic treatment, garlic, ACV, etc, not to mention that the Chinese homeopathic medecine choices are hugely larger than anyone's else on Earth. The medecines choices are like with your choice of keeping him where you keep him, you do the best THAT YOU CAN. And Whitetail is right about the peas, for example though in my regular seeds mix peas are not included as my pigeons never like dry peas, when lately I had two little guys with problems I fed them with scalded frosted peas removing their skin. If you have peas baby food, try it with a syringe.
> 
> PS: Try to move his legs gently while soaked in warm water (just the legs): do you feel any rigidity or flexibility?


i hv not tried any homeopathic medicines because I am not sure what the pgis can withstand. But I do think I will try some antibotics as you suggest. I will go to the pharmacy today. 

p.s. I tried. The legs are not rigid. But neither flexible. Or the legs are flexible with the move of my hand, but he is not really moving a lot on his own.



Dima said:


> Can you buy some vitamin CALCIUM & D3 pill. Buy the ones that have the smallest quantity in one pill. Then you can cut the pill in let's say 20 mg and pop one piece a day in her mouth.
> Baytril is Enrofloxacin. Google Enrofloxacin in China..may be you can get again the pill (it's better pill than liquid since it's not easy to use syringe)


Yes, I will hand the name to the pharmacy today. Hope that they will sell me without doctor prescription. Do I have to wrap the pill into bread crump for he to eat, or directly handfeed the pill? And may I ask a silly question how to weigh 20mg


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Sure, try to get a taller box. The floor is concrete and it is too cold for Hon. Can you put a few sheets of cloths underneaths him too. You can roll the towel on the length of it , all around him and live a small cup with seeds in front of Hon, just as you did in the pic.It will be great if you could drop him water in the beak (on the side of the beak) with a eyedropper tool, or encourage her by keeping the bowl of water underneath his beak ( do not go with water over the nostrils) Apple juice is good in case that food in the crop is not moving. If she doesn't drink, defrosted peas are good, if she doesn't eat them, you can pop them in her mouth..peas will hydrate.
Can you buy Metronidazole..?please google it. Also Enrofloxacin.
When you get a taller box , you can find a wide bowl, flower pot plate and place her in it, with soft cloths underneath and towel around him. Even a cardboard box for him to fit in it's good.

These are just small details, important is that you *get your hands on medicine*.

I love how comfortable he looks outside in the picture with the wire mesh.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Because he can eat on his own, just leave the peas at room temperature and put them in front of him. That way he will hydrate. When he eats, leave in from of him only defrosted peas and afterwards leave him to eat the other seeds.
But you should help him drink water/apple juice with the dropper.

Ca & D3 only (if you find CA from Oyster shell it's the best). If per each pill ,for example, says 100mg, then you cut it 5 equal pieces, you will get 20 mg per cut piece. Pop iy in his mouth.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

The defrosted peas you can buy in the frozen food section of the supermarket. When you get home you keep the peas in the freezer and whenever you need them you take as much as you want. The way I do it is to take a handful and soak them for about 3 minutes in a bowl of hot water from the tap, you just want them to defrost and be a little warm, not hot. Eat one yourself to make sure they're fine.

Some peas are yellow and some are green. I read in a book longtime ago that any kind of pea is very good food for pigeons so I always give them extra peas, specially for ferals because their life is tougher. Protein is so important for healing and keeping them from getting sick.

Try giving Hon the defrosted peas and as Dima says, it will hydrate her. I would also try leaving her some extra dried peas from your mix as well so she can choose. 
Let us know how you go.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Poops he got overnight. Not that much...









Close look, still healthy?









As Dima said the ground is concrete and not warm enough, I got a piece of table cloth, folded it into layers and put it beneath Hon. This provides him a soft surface to rest on. Hope its more comfortable.








However today when I came to take him, I noticed he was not sitting in the middle of the towel. But instead at the side. The towel is not long enough to enclose him in a circular form. He is naughty to get away from the towel...

His look today~


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Here is a series of movement captured by camera.
































Hon is using all his wings and legs paddling on the ground. In response to the previous concern whether he can move his tail, I dont think he can use his tail very much. At least he cannot effectively coordinate his tail to balance the movement. Every time seeing him trying so hard but end up in vain effort makes me sad. He is so eager to fly. But he cannot elevate his body above the ground for 1cm.. This again convinces me that he is suffering from spinal nerve damage.



whitetail said:


> The defrosted peas you can buy in the frozen food section of the supermarket.
> 
> Some peas are yellow and some are green. I read in a book longtime ago that any kind of pea is very good food for pigeons so I always give them extra peas,
> 
> Try giving Hon the defrosted peas and as Dima says, it will hydrate her. I would also try leaving her some extra dried peas from your mix as well so she can choose.


Thx for your quick response. Yes, today I checked the supermarket and those peas are available!! Actually the seeds I got are standardized. Each month I order 6 packets of seeds (@40kg per packet) and 1 packet of rice grains (@30kg per packet). The company delivers to my storage place. What components are present in the mixture depend on their supply. I didnt make specific requirement. Sometimes there are ample of green peas. Sometimes red peas(Chinese believe that red peas are very good for blood) and sometimes white peas. For this month, only green. I will request the supplier to mix more red and white peas during next month order. I hvnt bought the defrosted peas yet, for I hv gone over-budget today. But I will do it tmr.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dear Whitetail, plx help verify if I hv not got wrong with the type of green peas you mentioned. 











Dima said:


> Can you buy some vitamin CALCIUM & D3 pill. Buy the ones that have the smallest quantity in one pill. Then you can cut the pill in let's say 20 mg and pop one piece a day in her mouth.
> Baytril is Enrofloxacin. Google Enrofloxacin in China..may be you can get again the pill (it's better pill than liquid since it's not easy to use syringe)











I hv got a bottle of vitamin calcium and D3 pill. But the pill is sizable. They only got this size so I hv no choice. Then how can I decide the quantity of 20mg? And I dunno if it is in form of solid or powder. If powder, it is hard to pop. Should I roll the powder in bread crump for her to swallow?



Dima said:


> Can you buy Metronidazole..?please google it. Also Enrofloxacin.











Finally I managed to get Metronidazole. I found the Chinese name of Enrofloxacin but not Metronidazole. But the shopkeeper in the pharmacy said Enrofloxcain is now being tested by the Hygiene Department of HK government for drug safety, and wont be available for sales in short time. Luckily, he could read English and sold me Metronidazole at HK$1.5 each pellet. I bought 10. Much cheaper than I imagine but then I started to worry the reliability of the pharmacy. There are always news here of dishonest merchants cheating customers with inferior products. 

Nevertheless, I hv not given him any Vitamin or antibiotics up to now. It is because this is my first time to apply medicines to pgis and I must be extremely cautious. I am afraid some human medicines may be too intensive and the compact and fragile pgi bodies cannot withstand. Thats why I hv to keep asking asking and asking. >< For Vitamin, 20 mg each day. But for the antibiotics, what is the appropriate amount? At this stage, is it necessary to feed antibiotics if it is only bone fracture or nerve damage and can heal by himself?

And the last question, I hv not tried the idea of a bowl or cup of water in the box. Although I want Hon to drink more even at times I am not present, I worry that with his clumsy movement he will capsize the water, wetting his body under the cold weather for whole night. But if I do not place water, he only hv limited chance to drink during the few hours I care for him each day...

Today is really costly...the antibiotics, towel and vitamins have cost HK$240.
I am still a full time student living on my mum pocket money... But I understand that money need to be spent to make Hon well
Tmr...I will buy apple juice, defrosted pea and the eyedropper.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow..you spent quite a lot for Hon. But do not worry, these medicine is good to have it handy for other sick pigeons.
So you got Metronidazole & Vitamin. Not Ennrofloxacin.
How much Metro is in one pill? You have to give 10 mg in the morning and 10 mg in the evening. Cut it in pieces to get 10 mg in one piece.
Vitamin. It says soft gel. You cannot cut soft gel. And it's 600 mg?

The peas are called here in Canada Mung peas. They are amazing. My pigeons just love them.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I have a question. Can cats or rats get to where you keep the pigeon? I would think you should consider to bring it with you, at least in the balcony. It won't bother your mom, as long as you clean his poop.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> I have a question. Can cats or rats get to where you keep the pigeon? I would think you should consider to bring it with you, at least in the balcony. It won't bother your mom, as long as you clean his poop.


I am sure that cats or rats cannot reach here. Cats are really great menace to my flock. But not for where Hon is now. Is it the cats instinctive hobby to catch and torture pgis? (even when they are not hungry) becoz there are kind people feeding that cats too and I assume them to hv ample to eat. But they are still aiming at the pgis everyday. I dun hv a balcony.



Dima said:


> So you got Metronidazole & Vitamin. Not Ennrofloxacin.
> How much Metro is in one pill? You have to give 10 mg in the morning and 10 mg in the evening. Cut it in pieces to get 10 mg in one piece.
> Vitamin. It says soft gel. You cannot cut soft gel. And it's 600 mg?


Yes I got only Metronidazole & Vitamin. No Ennrofloxacin. Which one is better, Metro or Enro? 

How much Metro is in one pill?
I dun quite know. No such information is shown in the package. 
Does a quarter of a pill approximates 10 mg?
Can you make an estimation based on your past experience?
So hv I bought the wrong Vitamin?
For soft gel, can I adhere it to bread crumps like making bread and butter, so when Hon eats the bread, he also intakes the gel?


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Hi,

Yes, those green ones we call Mung beans here in Australia and they do come in pigeon mixes but they aren't actually peas, they are a bean but I think they'd be fantastic as well; all legumes have protein and it's what they really need specially when they have to heal and recover.

The peas that I was telling you are peas like the frozen ones you saw in the supermarket but dried. Most of the time they sell them split in half and that's why they call them yellow split peas and green split peas. I think whatever peas you get for them are good but give them extra; I always put a big dish of just whole dried green peas and they go crazy for it.

I'll try the photo again


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Today I was in hurry so no time to take photos. Just simple updates of Hon situation..

1. Got more poops yesterday night. Poops still look healthy.
2. Drank more water today, but still not enough.
3. It has been exactly a week since Hon was kept in captivity. I got him last Friday. No significant progress in terms of walking or flying in these 7 days. 

If he can heal by himself, how long does it take?
I need to get prepared. 
Do the Vitamin D + Calcium pills accelerate his bone recovery?



whitetail said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, those green ones we call Mung beans here in Australia and they do come in pigeon mixes but they aren't actually peas, they are a bean but I think they'd be fantastic as well; all legumes have protein and it's what they really need specially when they have to heal and recover.
> 
> The peas that I was telling you are peas like the frozen ones you saw in the supermarket but dried. Most of the time they sell them split in half and that's why they call them yellow split peas and green split peas. I think whatever peas you get for them are good but give them extra; I always put a big dish of just whole dried green peas and they go crazy for it.


Oh...I thought that beans and peas are the same thing. What a basic misconception I have! Still have not bought defrozed peas yet since today I hv such a hectic schedule. 

Your photo really helps! I will print it out and get it to some Indian grocery stories. There is a large flock next to the largest Mosque in Hong Kong and I occasionally visit there. The Arabians tend to be more friendly towards pgis than HK people. Many of them ignore the feeding ban and feed the birds. I always see them feed the peas shown in your photo, especially the middle one, and I never know the name of it. Now that I know these peas are more beneficial than my mixture so I will try getting some from the Indian stores soon.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

If it's a tail bone problem, then he needs rest. Do not force him to fly.Nerve damage can take weeks to months. I hope she gets better. What are you giving now: Metro or Baytril, beside the vit.
Ca & D3 are always good for bones and overall health . Especially that he doesn't sit in the sun for too long, D3 will help Ca to be metabolized in the body.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Your mixture is good, just add the peas to it. Maybe when you go to feed them have a bag of your mixture and then another bag of just peas so they can have extra. Maybe also ask the the Middle Eastern people that are feeding the pigeons by the mosque what the seeds are and where they get them, they might know a really good place and you may also make friends with other pigeon loving people. They might also know about where to buy medication and vitamins for pigeons. Middle Easterners like pigeons, I know because when I take a sick pigeon to the vet and I have a taxi driver from that part of the world they are always very sympathetic towards me and the pigeon.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> Do not force him to fly.Nerve damage can take weeks to months. I hope she gets better. What are you giving now: Metro or Baytril, beside the vit.
> Especially that he doesn't sit in the sun for too long, D3 will help Ca to be metabolized in the body.


I do not force him to fly. Yes you remind me the important thing of sunshine! I will keep giving him vit. I am giving him Metro. I hv made the pill into tiny pieces, and wrap the tiny pieces into the bread for him to swallow. I started yesterday.



whitetail said:


> Middle Easterners like pigeons, I know because when I take a sick pigeon to the vet and I have a taxi driver from that part of the world they are always very sympathetic towards me and the pigeon.


Yes. Middle Easterners are far more friendly to pigeons than HK people. Some bring peas, and other bring their leftovers (like yellow rice and nan). Though this is only small contribution, I really appreciate. If all HK people are like Middle Easterners (I dont expect them to be friendly, but at least less hostile), HK would not be such a tough place for pgis. I have not been to many places in the world, but I can boldly say that pgis in this city lead one of the most miserable pgis life over the globe.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Yes cats will catch and kill animal just for the fun of it. There are 2 animals that I know of that hunt for sport CATS and PEOPLE


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Brief Report of Hon situation:

1. He got much poop today. The most since I have him in captivity. An amount that is proportional to amount of food he ate ytd.

2. No improvement in terms of walking or flying.

3. Great appetite again. Eat over 150 seeds.

Today I am depressed. I killed a pgi. Maybe it is more accurate to say that I have led to the death of a poor pgi due to a decision that I made, which I dunno is right or wrong. It is too long and complicate to tell the story now. Maybe I will start another thread when I have time.


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## whitetail (Apr 17, 2008)

Longlive pigeon,

I think you are a very caring person and you were doing your best for this little one that you have lost. I think we have all been in these situations where we have lost one and question if our decisions were right or wrong; I lost one to pmv 3 weeks ago and really question if I did the right things.

Anyways, keep your spirits high because you're helping and benefiting so many others!


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Just update Hon situation these 2 days. He has been kept for 10 days. 
On Sunday he had an incredibly enormous appetite and ate continuous for more than 10 minutes. 
Today (Monday) he ate a little less.
Poops are quite healthy in terms of color and quantity.
But still not much improvement in terms of flying and walking. 
I suddenly has a question: will he be non-releasable for the rest of his life ?



whitetail said:


> Longlive pigeon,
> 
> I think you are a very caring person and you were doing your best for this little one that you have lost. I think we have all been in these situations where we have lost one and question if our decisions were right or wrong; I lost one to pmv 3 weeks ago and really question if I did the right things.
> 
> Anyways, keep your spirits high because you're helping and benefiting so many others!


Thank you. The death was not related to PMV. It was related to human cruelty. Being here really boost my morale because here are always kind people who share invaluable experience for the well-being of the dear pgis.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

You have to know how much was the Metro pill. If you give to less is ineffective and too much it may hurt Hon. You can go and ask where you bought the pills how many mg is in each. The treatment is usually of 10 days.
I hope Hon would get better; but the circumstances are not helping him. I mentioned before that you should talk to your mom. It will be just a pigeon on your balcony in a safe box and you will do the cleaning. Otherwise i think you should look for someone who can keep it and care for it, or you can go every day.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> You have to know how much was the Metro pill. If you give to less is ineffective and too much it may hurt Hon. You can go and ask where you bought the pills how many mg is in each. The treatment is usually of 10 days.
> I hope Hon would get better; but the circumstances are not helping him. I mentioned before that you should talk to your mom. It will be just a pigeon on your balcony in a safe box and you will do the cleaning. Otherwise i think you should look for someone who can keep it and care for it, or you can go every day.


Yes I go there everyday to visit him and take care (e.g. take him out to join the flock, refill the water, do the feeding) so it is not much less comfortable if compared with placing him home. Yesterday he was still doing fine.

Dunno it is happy or sad that Hon has a new companion. She is named Dolly. She has droopy wings for >1 month. She still managed to fly during this month and I was reluctant to give her shelter because I think as long as they can make it through, I dun want to intervene. But yesterday she eventually lost all her flying ability. I am putting her next to Hon. Dunno if there will be any transmissible diseases between them? Do they need to be separated? But I dun have so much space to practice complete isolation.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Poor Dolly. Is the wing broken or is swollen. 
I hope you can get some antibiotic: Amoxicillin, but Baytril ( enrofloxacin is the best). Usually you have to keep them separate; there's also possibility that they can attack each other.
Give Dolly CA & D3 too, that's what you have for now. Metro also. Did you find out how much is in one pill? Usually they come up to 500mg.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> Poor Dolly. Is the wing broken or is swollen.
> I hope you can get some antibiotic: Amoxicillin, but Baytril ( enrofloxacin is the best). Usually you have to keep them separate; there's also possibility that they can attack each other.
> Give Dolly CA & D3 too, that's what you have for now. Metro also. Did you find out how much is in one pill? Usually they come up to 500mg.


Dolly...I think she is not wing broken...The common symptoms of sickness but is not too swollen either. Yesterday she wandered into the traffic and I had to jump in front of the cars to stop her from being crushed. But her wing problem occurred way before this incident. I still have not found out about how much in one pill. I will ask the pharmacy again today. I will give Dolly the CAD3 and metro as you suggest. Will update tonight to show her look and poops.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't give any meds unless you know how many mg in each pill. You can seriously harm the bird by giving the wrong amount. Even calcium and vit. D can be over done. First you need to know how strong the meds are.

You have had the pills for a week and haven't yet found out what strength they are?


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dolly. She has been eating a lot like Hon. 








Symptoms of drooping wings have persisted for > 1 month. Originally very low when taking off but managed to gain height after a distance. Deteriorated this week and now unable to fly. Yesterday she wandered into the busy traffic. Nearly crushed by a taxi. I took her back to the shelter place, which is the only place I can accommodate her.

Dolly poop last night. Do not get faked by the color. Though it appears red, Dolly was not ejecting blood. Some problem with the camera mode. I think her poop is still healthy, isnt it?









Hon today. Acting same as all these days I have been keeping him. No improvement. No deterioration.











Jay3 said:


> You can't give any meds unless you know how many mg in each pill. You can seriously harm the bird by giving the wrong amount. Even calcium and vit. D can be over done. First you need to know how strong the meds are.
> 
> You have had the pills for a week and haven't yet found out what strength they are?


Yes it has been several days since I hv given Hon vit D and metro. Still cannot observe any significant improvement in terms of walking or flying or recovering of his torn tail feather. Maybe since I am not giving him enough medicine? I only gave him a trace of those pills powder. I prefer under-dosing to over-dosing. Under-dosing will be ineffective, but over-dosing will cause unknown side effects that I dare not let Hon bear this risk. 

Of course if I know exactly the MGS then the right amount can be given. I know I am always delaying my plan. Today I hv not asked the pharmacy yet since I have a very tight and hectic schedule. I am in my university final year, and I basically have to take care of 2 flocks everyday, and frequently have to substitute my friends for their responsible flocks when they are not free. Just today I have fed 5 flocks, which the venue are not close between. How I wish I can be an expert in healing the sick birds I vow to figure out the strength of the medicines tomorrow.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> there's also possibility that they can attack each other.


Yes your prediction is so right!! I am placing them in separate container. Today when I brought them out to join the flock, Dolly behaved actively and ate a lot. Returning to the shelter place, I fed them again on the piece of table cloth. Out of my expectation, Hon, who is so paralyzed, responded to Dolly by stumbling along forward with all his effort and biting Dolly. Dolly fought back, biting and flapping wings. I separated them. But both still showed aggressive postures towards each other. Dolly is so tame and elegant and I do not believe her to be so rude until I saw the fighting Anyway, somehow glad to see them fight. Awfully sick pgis dont fight (hv no energy to fight)...They are so energetic. Before they recover, seeing them eating and excreting healthily is the best I can expect.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Today afternoon Dolly fled when I was letting her out with the crowd. She took a long low path taking off. She can merely fly, a slight improvement when compared to 2 days ago when I took her. Dunno if she can manage to fly back from her nesting area to the feeding place tomorrow. If I see her tomorrow, should I catch her and keep her until she fully recovers? She seems not enjoy being in captivity. Or should I give her ample to eat and let her leave by herself if she can and wants to leave?


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Hon has some brown things growing on both of his eyelids these recent 2 or 3 days. At first, I did not pay much attention but the brown things are enlarging. I have sick pigeons in the flock that have something abnormal growing from their beak and tongue then gradually spread and cover their eyes and nostrils. Is Hon showing the signs of contracting this disease...? His poops are fairly acceptable, but a bit watery. I have been feeding him Metro for more than 10 days now. Anyone have idea what I should do


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The growth might be Pox. Pox spreads from pigeon to pigeon, not to people. There is no cure for it. But with good nutrition it may take less time to take its course. 
Pox can advance in such degree that if it grows on nostrils, pigeons cannot breath, on the side of the beak ( they cannot eat), on the eye..

It may take a few weeks or 1-2 months for the lumps to fall. If you tough Hon, just wash your hands so that when you feed them with seeds or touch other birds they don't get it. Are there any mosquitos in the place Hon is? Mosquitos carry the virus.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Today Hon regained a little flying and walking ability!!!
Also, there was a little bit of pox on both of his eyelids, but today I noticed that the one on the left eyelid has already fallen off.
Isnt it good signs~


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

longlive_pigeon said:


> Today Hon regained a little flying and walking ability!!!
> Also, there was a little bit of pox on both of his eyelids, but today I noticed that the one on the left eyelid has already fallen off.
> Isnt it good signs~


Wow, another good news!
I would say not to push him too much with the flying. He may not be complete healthy and may take off and end up in the same situation, but you may not be there again to rescue.
Keep keep for a little bit and continue to do what you're doing. I think you should stop giving Metro ( how long you've been giving). You can continue though to give Ca & d3.

I am so relieved .

How did his eye lid fell off? May be is just a scar from the pox. Can he close his eye when he sleeps?
Pic as usual is good to have.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> Wow, another good news!
> I would say not to push him too much with the flying. He may not be complete healthy and may take off and end up in the same situation, but you may not be there again to rescue.
> Keep keep for a little bit and continue to do what you're doing. I think you should stop giving Metro ( how long you've been giving). You can continue though to give Ca & d3.
> 
> ...


I guess it still takes long time before he fully recovers flying and walking ability. He still sits all day. But when I try startling him or when other male pgis try to rape him, he can fly for a limited distance (about 15m) and land clumsily. 

I wont be releasing him before he fully regains his flying ability. What I do is taking him out in the daily feeding so he can see his friends and practice flying. And by the stage when he attains the flying ability enough to escape away, I will no longer let him out freely but keep him in a cage, wait until he 100% recovers so I can do an once-and-for-all release. I have already stopped giving him Metro for quite a time. I have only given him Metro for 2 weeks and then stopped. 

By the way, I have not given Hon and Dolly a bath since keeping them. I am afraid they will get a cold after getting wet. But they really havnt cleansed themselves for long long time. I notice they are always scratching their feathers with their beak. Itchy?? Would it be a good idea to put them in a pool of shallow water so they can bath themselves?

His eye lid did not fall off. It is only the pox growing on his left eye lid that fell off.  Yes he can close his eyes when sleeping.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I am glad his eye lid is ok.
You can use a spray bottle and mist them with water. Pecking at their feather it's natural. That's what pigeons do most of they day and that's how they keep themselves clean.

Dolly! What's wrong with her. Is the one with the dropping wings?
Hon i may think he has some nerve or spine problem since you mentioned he can fly a little bit but it land not good on his feet. Rest and bird vitamins in the water that contains also vit B it's good. May be you can get a hold on parrot liquid vitamins and drop in the water as per instruction, they are not expensive.
I am sad it takes so long with Hon and Dolly to recover. I admire all your determination , not only with these two, but all the other flocks. 
May be you can order some antibiotic ,Baytril. There was a person from China last year on PT and had purchased Baytril. I will try to find his thread.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Yes Dolly is the one with droopy wings, the white pigeon that I have posted her picture in this thread. 

I have carelessly released her on Saturday. I took her and Hon out to join the daily feeding as usual. Then, after finish feeding this site(call it Site A), I will walk to another flock in the adjacent area(Site B). I am in a hurry so cannot bring Hon and Dolly back to their shelter place first as it will delay the arrival time at B. Since I do not want to leave Hon and Dolly unattended at A, I bring them along to B. Then when finish feeding B, I will walk back to A and bring them back to the shelter. This is my daily routine.

But as I set Dolly and Hon free at B that day, I did not notice that Dolly has resumed her flying ability so dramatically. She immediately took off and landed on the roof of a 3-storey apartment house. 

The dilemma happened. She may got lost. She may not know how to fly back herself to A which she belongs to. Though A and B are only about 1 km apart and pgis recognize their way home, I doubt if a pgi with only partial flying ability can do so. I sat there and waited. That roof is a private area and inaccessible for me. I am afraid that Dolly will join the departing pgis at B and fly to the nesting area of B, which is very far away from A, at least 3.5 km. Then this will further increase her difficulty of returning to A or even B the next day. 

Fortunately, she did not join the departing pgis at B. She only stared at the surroundings cautiously on the roof top. I waited until the last pgi at B departed and sunlight began to dim out. Dolly still has no signs of leaving. I left with tension in my heart, worrying that Dolly may fall into accidents overnight. 

I have listed out some possibilities in my mind. She may got lost and never show up. Or she may stay in the same place at B so tomorrow I may be able to catch her at B and bring her back to A. This is the best I can expect. I decided that I will go to B earlier and rescue her,if she really stays at B.

Out of my expectation, on the following day (sunday), when I was feeding A, Dolly is already on the lamp post waiting for me. What a great CHinese New Year present!! She is so tough!! She managed to recognize the way and fly back from B to A~! So relieved. I thought I may lose her this time and I blame myself. She has overcome such challenging task and made it back. According to my observation, she has not yet fully recovered. She is clumsy taking off and one of her wing is still droopy. I want to catch her again and nurse her until 100% recovery. But as I approached, she flies away and wont let me catch. Dolly has been staying in the shelter for 23 days before being released. While I am happy that she managed to live on herself, I worry the resurgence of the droopy wings symptoms that will render her unable to fly again.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow. Smart Dolly. Just keep an eye on her. If she gets bad again you will be able to catch her.

You are doing lots of work indeed. Hon doesn't fly but he got some travel time with you.

I wish Hon was getting better.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Dima said:


> I am glad his eye lid is ok.
> You can use a spray bottle and mist them with water. Pecking at their feather it's natural. That's what pigeons do most of they day and that's how they keep themselves clean.
> 
> Dolly! What's wrong with her. Is the one with the dropping wings?
> ...


It has been nearly 5 weeks since Hon has been staying here. He no longer shivers. He shows further improvement in walking ability. Now he can nearly stand on both legs. But his legs are still flaccid. He still prefers to sit most of the time. 

Another thing worries me. Hon appetite dwindled much. He is now reluctant to eat, and eat little if any. His poops appear different at intervals. Sometimes healthy, but sometimes very watery and sharp yellow. I started giving him Metro again. How many days should I continue to give Metro to him? 

By the way, large-scale PMV is breaking out in 2 major flocks in Hong Kong, not the 3 flocks I responsible for, but other flocks. Should I take them to the shelter place? I have decided not because I am afraid this will spread to Hon. What is your opinion?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

pmv is spread through the droppings. You will have to keep them separated from each other if you get a PMV pigeon. Are PMV pigeons acting sick? How?

Do not give any more Metro to Hon. That was for CANKER. He's been for about 2 week. Right.
I forgot to look for that post from China of the member that rescued a pigeon and found baytril antibiotic....I will try to search tonight. Sorry.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I found the link, but he gave just as you did Metro. They were 200 mg. I don't think he may respond. But send him a Private Message. It seems that he took Metro from 2 different places and he trusted only one. It's mentioned in the thread Apple Cider Vinnegar ( 1 or 2 spoons in 4 liters) which you can give Hon....May be the gentleman if he respond to you , you can ask him for Antibiotic ( Baytril/ Enrofloxacin).He probably made some friends with pigeons meanwhile and he can help you.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/found-a-white-pigeon-61967.html?highlight=PIGEON+FLIES


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

I brought Dolly in today. Yesterday she still flew from her nesting place to where I conduct feeding. But then when she was full and wanted to leave, she first flew high enough to reach the eaves, then was later discovered hiding in a corner on the ground again. I think if I startle her and chase her forcing her to fly she can still make it. But I dare not bear the risk. She might be barely able to fly but not able to return. So for safe sake, I took her back to the shelter place again. What is the reason of her flying ability keeps fluctuating ? After all, she has been set free and survived in the wild for 3 days before I brought her in again. Besides Vitamin, what else can I help Dolly?

For Hon, another good news is that the POX on his right eyelid has fallen off too. Now he is completely pox-free. But still no further improvement in walking and flying. 

Apple Cider Vinegar is easily available from grocery stores. What is its function? For sterilizing or for supplementing nutrients?

The PMV pgis act out all the symptoms of PMV...e.g. crash landing, cannot peck accurately at the food...It is breaking out very massively. My flock was hit by PMV last autumn and many died. Now my flock is PMV-free but 2 other flocks now have PMV transmitting at very fast rate. I learn from the forum that a PMV pgi can recover by itself if given a cozy place to rest. I very much want to take them back. But given that I now have Hon and Dolly and another 2 babies (1 painted red and set free after the soft release and so far successful, another newly brought in), I am hesitant whether I should let them come vulnerable to the virus...


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Dolly needs antibiotic. The fact that she doesn't fly, it's not a physical disability for her wings. Did you send a Private message to the member from Hong Kong ( i pasted the link last time) to ask if he can help you find antibiotics like Baytril?

ACV is to create good bacteria in their digestive system and cleanse they body, detoxify it.

PMV pigeons are never healed for life. They get better for a while with good food, water, vitamins, but it comes back. It a neurological problem that it will come back from time to time.


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Yes Dolly cannot fly not because of physical disability. Because of internal problem of her body.
I have sent him private msg and waiting if he can reply.
Hon appetite has grown these recent 2 days. On Sun and Mon he only picked up less than 10 seeds and worried me. Now his appetite is normal again.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Are there any pigeon clubs in Hong Kong or is completely forbidden to have any pigeons?


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

```

```



Dima said:


> Are there any pigeon clubs in Hong Kong or is completely forbidden to have any pigeons?


Feeding wild pgis was outlawed in 2004. Then keeping pgis (as pets or racing pgis) was banned in 2006. 
http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200602/03/P200602030192.htm

Racing pgis was once very popular in HK. In the past there were a few pigeon clubs in Hk, but now all these have vanished. There is not even one pigeon shop in HK. If there is still one, I can consult their opinion, bring the bird to them for diagnosis and perhaps they have amply supply of medicines for pgis incl antibiotics to treat all those impaired birds. The HK government has adopted the most radical approach towards pgis in the world. Now the pgi circle in HK is only those few volunteers who insist on breaching the law to nourish the poor flocks. 

And I never trust the racing pgis guy here in Hong Kong. There are still some people who secretly keep racing pgis. Sometimes they go to the flock and look for lost pgis with brands. They want to catch them when I am feeding. I talked with them and they told me that they catch them home for breeding strain of desirable racing pgis. But when some babies with undesirable strains were given birth, they simply cook and eat them. No waste, they siad. Their interest is only perfecting their strains and have no interest in taking care of the wild flock.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

longlive_pigeon said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Feeding wild pgis was outlawed in 2004. Then keeping pgis (as pets or racing pgis) was banned in 2006.
> ...


I see that all situation it's sad for pigeons. 
These people that have pigeons at home and use them for breeding, can you ask if they know some one who sells antibiotics for pigeons? Just be friendly with them, regardless their "eating behavior" of their own pgis.


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