# Why Can't People just be KIND



## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

OK, so yes, it's illegal to feed pigeons here in San Francisco. And I still do it. I feed my little flock every day on the sidewalk between some trees, on the "blind" side of a building with little foot traffic.

I do try to be discreet, and scan the horizon for anybody who might see me feeding. But oftentimes the pigeons give me away because they fly down to meet me, and get all excited while they're waiting for me to put down the seed.

They eat quickly and are often back on their rooftops and electrical wires within 5 minutes. No fuss, no muss.

There's this woman who has been around the neighborhood for years, maybe in her late 60's or early 70's by now. I met her many years ago because she used to walk an elderly neighbor's yellow lab, Ginger. I once saw her hit Ginger right across the face, in fact I was standing there talking to her when she did it, she didn't try to hide it from me. I told the dog's owner but she just said "Oh, Ginger loves her!" and indeed, Ginger had an exceedingly strong will and hard head, but still, it didn't sit right with me.

When Ginger's owner died, they sent Ginger to live in Oregon and there was some talk about sending this woman up with her but it didn't happen, and she basically became homeless.

I think she's from Germany, she has a thick accent, and no teeth, so her tongue slaps disgustingly against her lips when she talks. And she's dirty, and has a big wart on her chin with a hair growing out of it. She's fluent in English. I never liked her because she was always very opinionated and domineering and loud even before she became homeless, and she hasn't changed.

Anyway, the other day when I had just fed the pigeons she came along and said in her smug know-it-all tone that it was illegal to feed pigeons. I ignored her.

Today, I had fed them and had walked away, crossed the street and was buying a paper at a rack, when I glanced over and saw her walking down toward the pigeons who were still eating. She threw something at them, hurled it with all her might (a cup?) and they flew away, and then sat down on a ledge of the building near where I feed. I went over and confronted her and she yelled at me that feeding pigeons was illegal. I said cruelty to animals was illegal, and so was littering, and so was vagrancy and not having a fixed address or means of support. I also asked whether she was a legal citizen (she didn't answer), and said that if I saw her harrassing the pigeons again I would call the police. She wouldn't leave, so I just stood there next to her and waited her out. She yelled, so I yelled louder and longer.

I am tall, and she is short, so I think my physical presence intimidated her, and eventually she wandered off.

I don't know why a person who is down on her luck and basically depends on kindness from strangers in order to survive, can't show a little empathy to stray pigeons who are basically in the same boat as she is, and just leave them alone.

So, from now on I am going to have to stay while they eat. She won't call the police, she doesn't even have a cell phone. And I'll make it clear to her the next time I see her that I will file a complaint against her for aggressive behavior, cruelty to animals and littering if she tries. Then my next call will be to the INS. I'm just not going to stand for this.

Normally I try to float under the radar and not get into confrontations with people, which is why this is only the second time I have had a problem, in many months, feeding the birds...but the problem with a homeless busybody like her is that she has nothing but time on her hands, she lives on the street (THAT street, or nearby), and this gives her a "crusade" - something to while away the time and give her a feeling of importance and control over her environment.

I really REALLY prefer to avoid such confrontations because they end up focusing somebody's negative attention on the pigeons. I prefer not to give nasty people any energy back, because they feed on it. It makes them feel less invisible if somebody out there finds them worthy of attention - and it doesn't matter if it's BAD attention - as long as somebody - ANYBODY - notices them.


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

I have come to realize that many people that are mean to animals or other people need to have control over something or someone because too many times their own life sucks in one way or another. 

You are wrong when you said that the pigeons are in the same situation she is. YOU care and it sounds like you love those pigeons, that woman has no one that cares and loves her, she seems jealous of the attention and kindness you give them.

Stand your ground about feeding the pigeons, but have you tried a little kindness for her? I know full well that some people are just plain mean and angry and she may be one of those no matter what you do.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

There is nothing wrong for you to feed the birds but you know other people will have their own opinions about the birds, from what I hear (THEIR OPINION) they are dirty, with diseases and some other crappy reasons that they dont even know, for me I dont care if some people feeds them but you have to realize that if the city ruled out that, its illegal, it is illegal, just dont let anyone pursue this and take a pic of you feeding them, better to avoid the court crap.Better to know your rights about feeding them coz as far as I'm concern the law says it all..

Here in NYC as far as I know some building owners down in Manhattan hire someone to eliminate pigeons and by doing that is they lure the birds to eat bread then mix the food with AVITROL, that really kill the pigeon slowly with in 24 hours, the bird will flip and try to get their balance together then die on wherever the pigeon is...My main concern is be careful...


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

EgypSwiftLady said:


> Stand your ground about feeding the pigeons, but have you tried a little kindness for her? I know full well that some people are just plain mean and angry and she may be one of those no matter what you do.


I always used to speak to her when she walked Ginger. Then when I saw her on the street after Ginger's owner had died several years ago, she was pushing a shopping cart with a sleeping bag in it, near a public park in the neighborhood, and I stopped and spoke to her (that's how I found out about how she was supposed to go to Oregon with Ginger but it fell through), and I treated her exactly as I always had - with dignity. I didn't mention her circumstances.

After that, I'd see her on the street and occasionally stop to talk to her but she had never been someone I actually LIKED (especially after I saw her clobber the dog in the face) so I have to admit, I avoided her after that. She just has an unpleasant personality. As I said, a kind of loud know-it-all.

I think she threw the first stone. Here's a person in the neighborhood who had always been polite to her, and she's THREATENING me with turning me in? Then she's attacking the pigeons behind my back, after she's seen me feed them, thinking I won't see her do that? 

I don't know how she saw me feeding them but she did, and she waited until I had left in order to act out her nastiness toward them.

No, there won't be any further kindness from me.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> There is nothing wrong for you to feed the birds but you know other people will have their own opinions about the birds, from what I hear (THEIR OPINION) they are dirty, with diseases and some other crappy reasons that they dont even know, for me I dont care if some people feeds them but you have to realize that if the city ruled out that, its illegal, it is illegal, just dont let anyone pursue this and take a pic of you feeding them, better to avoid the court crap.Better to know your rights about feeding them coz as far as I'm concern the law says it all..
> 
> Here in NYC as far as I know some building owners down in Manhattan hire someone to eliminate pigeons and by doing that is they lure the birds to eat bread then mix the food with AVITROL, that really kill the pigeon slowly with in 24 hours, the bird will flip and try to get their balance together then die on wherever the pigeon is...My main concern is be careful...


Thanks Pegasus, I was a bit worried that she would try to poison the pigeons but I don't think she has access to poison. I'll just have to be even more covert from now on. 

I didn't think anybody could see me but apparently she DID see me, and waited until I had gone to go and throw stuff at the pigeons - sneaky witch.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Have you thought about any poison will kill a pigeon (De-Con=rat poison for example), I will give you an example that some s__pid people once mentioned things to me that they threw an Alka-Seltzer on seagulls and swallow it then blew-up while flying...See, you have to put your feet on their shoes sometimes to know how others think, to avoid the confrontation by whoever, do it away from the place where you were feeding the flock, eventually the pigeons will see the food and eat it...

Another example of eliminating the pigeons will be trapping them and that is humane way, right?, then release them somewhere really far, but no one will have the patient to trap every pigeons in your area I don't mean to sound that I'm against your way but just stating the facts of what other people can do to your lovable birds...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

She's probably mentally ill. Don't let her get to you.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think you did wrong. You insulted that woman. Perhaps if you feed her first, then the pigeon, all three of you will probably have good conversation. Some people got homeless beyond their control. Some have chosen to do so. I still remember giving some money to a homeless person. He said he can't accept it because it is not much. How insulting! But some homeless people have this pride in them.


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

*Pigeon Lover*



SerendipityCA said:


> OK, so yes, it's illegal to feed pigeons here in San Francisco. And I still do it. I feed my little flock every day on the sidewalk between some trees, on the "blind" side of a building with little foot traffic.
> 
> I do try to be discreet, and scan the horizon for anybody who might see me feeding. But oftentimes the pigeons give me away because they fly down to meet me, and get all excited while they're waiting for me to put down the seed.
> 
> ...


dear pigeon lover,..you go girl,..you are awesome!!..i raise homers,just south of seattle,wash.we do not have such laws yet,but i think some laws are created out of ignorance,and a need to generate more revenue,..and it is a shame,society forces us to be covert,,..please remember we are out numbered??-out gunned,so to speak,..donot get caught,even the seemingly helpless people can cause great pain,when the so called law is on there side,..i am a grandparent,my wife and i stood helpless while 3 of our grand children were removed and given to teir crack/druggy mother,so they could be taken to a crack/drug infested house,.the police were very proud that they had done their job--so be carefull,..sincerely..james waller


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

jameswaller said:


> i am a grandparent,my wife and i stood helpless while 3 of our grand children were removed and given to teir crack/druggy mother,so they could be taken to a crack/drug infested house,.the police were very proud that they had done their job--so be carefull,..sincerely..james waller


Thanks James, I hear ya! I realize that the law is not on my side, and if the wrong person gets spiteful enough, I will be on the police's radar and then I'll have to be even more covert about feeding them. I may just go out at night (it's only a few blocks from my house and I have to walk the dog in the evening anyway) and put the seed out under cover of darkness. That way, the birds can come and eat whenever it suits them. Of course, that would deprive me of the fun of seeing and interacting with them every day, but it's more important for them to have food and to remain undisturbed, than it is for me to build a relationship with them. I'm certain they WILL find the food if I put it out in the same spot at night.


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

the old woman may have mental health issues or alcohol issues so i would not take her too seriously,still she sounds unkind,being homeless cant be easy,espec at an older age,but one would think she would show some empathy with the birds,if she goes to police,you can do likewise,as they may be able to give her the help she needs as its wrong of her to harass people and animals etc,she amy be better off in an institution or home for displaced persons and get the care she needs


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

SerendipityCA said:


> I always used to speak to her when she walked Ginger. Then when I saw her on the street after Ginger's owner had died several years ago, she was pushing a shopping cart with a sleeping bag in it, near a public park in the neighborhood, and I stopped and spoke to her (that's how I found out about how she was supposed to go to Oregon with Ginger but it fell through), and I treated her exactly as I always had - with dignity. I didn't mention her circumstances.
> 
> After that, I'd see her on the street and occasionally stop to talk to her but she had never been someone I actually LIKED (especially after I saw her clobber the dog in the face) so I have to admit, I avoided her after that. She just has an unpleasant personality. As I said, a kind of loud know-it-all.
> 
> ...



I understand you tried to be kind and she rejected that and I also understand all the points you are bringing up about her being an illegal and threatening you.
I apologize if you thought I was saying anything againist you.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I also feed my pigeons around Embarcadero downtown SF where I work, and before I got there, my pigeons are waiting for me, and they all arrived when they see me before putting the seeds there, but I noticed that even guys can give you a bad look sometimes, but I didn't hear any complaint so far, I expected, I try to be careful because I work there, and if someone from my office see me I can be in trouble, we own the buildings  so would be very bad if some tenants see me doing that, I feed them from Monday thru Friday and I come on Sundays, is the best day, nobody around, and I feed 3 different flocks one is a huge flock, but I feed that group only on Sundays, before to start my day is my first mission, anyways, about this woman she doesn't know about law or anything, so as long as she believes what you say you will be fine, I hate when people do this, I always have seeds in my packets so when I go to places and I see birds or pigeons I have something to give them, and I can see all different reactions from people, some say is illegal , I say if you eat they can eat don't you think? or I say send me the ticket, but I found people that smile with me, or even more I remember one day I was expecting bad words from this man, because he was watching me, and he says God bless you, it really made my day, I was ready to fight, so don't give up, and just stay around the pigeons nobody have to say anything, we know the rules here in SF, but as long as a police don't stop you I don't see any problem, just be careful with this woman. 

Ivette


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*An Opposing View*



SerendipityCA said:


> OK, so yes, it's illegal to feed pigeons here in San Francisco. And I still do it. I feed my little flock every day on the sidewalk between some trees, on the "blind" side of a building with little foot traffic.
> 
> I do try to be discreet, and scan the horizon for anybody who might see me feeding........



I often come across as some sort of a kill joy, and that is not my intention. The topic of feeding feral pigeons has come up numerous times, and there always seems to be two camps of people regarding this issue.

If you live in the USA, you must understand that this is a Nation of laws. Can you imagine what can and does happen, when people decide to only obey laws which they agree with ? Such a condition is referred to as "Anarchy". Now there have been times in our history, when public disobedience was the only recourse with immoral and unjust laws, which latter were changed. Such as the so-called "Jim Crow" laws. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

However, laws which ban the feeding of wild birds, were put into place for some very good reasons. I live just a few blocks from a public city park, which happens to have a small man made lake. As you can imagine, wild water birds stop in and ad to the beauty and nature of the park. So far....so good....then introduce well meaning humans who upset nature's balance, by feeding these birds. What do you think happened ?

Disaster ! Not only for humans but also for the birds. Part of the "entertainment" was to go feed the "ducks"...which were really Canadian geese. For the first few years or so, not much attention was paid to the environmental impact, and it would take many hundreds of words to describe the carnage which resulted as a result of human interference, well meaning as it might have been.

What may have started out as several dozen transient feathered visitors, ended up with a resident colony numbering perhaps in the thousands !! They refused to fly south for the winter, and it totally upset the ecological environment. The water became contaminated, algae grew out of control, fish died, and the area smelled like a cess pool. Dead birds littered the area, geese would attack people, animals fed off the dead bird's, and did I mention the tons of poop which littered the lake, the grounds, etc. etc. 

Birds which had no business living on a frozen lake, in the middle of the winter, had to rely 100% on humans to survive. Only the die hard bird feeders would wonder onto the piles of poop to feed the starving birds, and they would be mobbed....how many loaves of bread a day does it take to feed several thousand starving birds ? On those days when there was a severe wind chill and most people stayed home, what do you think it did to these poor birds ? Was that kind ? No, I suggest that those good intentioned people caused much harm and suffering.

Now, let's get back to resident pigeon flocks in cities. There are plenty of examples, of what happens when a feral flock has an unfettered feed supply. They reproduce !!  Then what happens ? Besides pigeon spikes, nets, and exterminators ? Anti-pigeon people call for drastic action, to "control" the problem. And then from a very selfish stand point, since I own pigeons in a city, what kinds of ideas do you think a city council could come up with if the good citizens demand something be done about the pigeon "problem" ????

One can argue that one person secretly handing out a few handful's of feed to some hungry pigeons do no harm. Problem is, absent laws, it does not end there. Your "kindness" even on a small scale, much like people who put out food for feral cats, results in more babies to live and die on the streets. 

I suggest, you keep a pet pigeon in your home or yard, and leave the feral population alone, and let Mother Nature keep the numbers in check. You can find fault with the poor homeless woman, ".. she's from Germany, she has a thick accent, and no teeth, so her tongue slaps disgustingly against her lips when she talks. And she's dirty, and has a big wart on her chin with a hair growing out of it." But, the next person could be me, washed, clean shaven, all my teeth, with a cell phone, and I would call the police, and testify in court if necessary. Because, if nothing else, it's the law and it's a law as a pigeon fancier I support.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Ivor said:


> as long as a police don't stop you I don't see any problem, just be careful with this woman.
> 
> Ivette


I don't mean to say you're wrong on that opinion Ivette, what they want to do is to see someone who they think doing the wrong doing... for example: from the distance, without you knowing they are taking pictures of you and next thing you know, you will have a citation or summon stating in the mail that you've seen feeding the birds and they have proof to prove it...I will never give them any chance to get to me, *my best suggestion to this*, scattered the feed at night as much as you can so you don't have to worry about them feeling hungry all day, that's what I do when I know I will be away for hours and not sure what time I'll be back in the late PM, I'll give them (my birds) the extra food they can have... If I can avoid not to be seen then that's the best way I shud do...

I always remember ; there's a GOOD cop and a BAD cop...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Ivor said:


> I also feed my pigeons around Embarcadero downtown SF where I work.... anyways, about this woman she doesn't know about law or anything, so as long as she believes what you say you will be fine....I say if you eat they can eat don't you think..... we know the rules here in SF, but as long as a police don't stop you I don't see any problem, just be careful with this woman.
> 
> Ivette


 Ditto to you also....see my earlier post. I understand your desire to "help" and I really do understand the emotional satisfaction a person feels from feeding pigeons, most people reading these pages understand that emotional satisfaction personally. But, the reality is, people such as yourself, and all the other illegal feeders, will in the end, only supply jobs to exterminators, and harsher actions to "control" pigeons. 

You may dislike me stating the facts, but the illegal actions of people like you, will bring additional pain and suffering to pigeons, and more negative views of pigeons by the public at large. 

Ask some of the pigeon fanciers in Chicago, what a negative image about pigeons meant to them. Ask the exterminators what an out of control pigeon population does for their business. 

I ask that you folks who are involved in this illegal activity, to think about the suffering your actions will cause, and put aside your own selfish emotional needs. You do it, because it makes you feel good, without regard for the suffering you will cause.  Time to think about the welfare of the feral colony instead of your "needs".


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear you are having issues with this lady. I think God puts people like this infront of all of us at times to test us. I can think of at least one person, who I would desribe exactly the same, but without the accent. I think you treating her with respect when you can and avoiding her would be best, but DO pray for her. If she is open to having anymore civil discussions then do so, because she needs something positive in her life, and needs to hear about Gods mercy. She is one of God's creatures too, as well as the pigeons.

In regards to feeding the pigeons, I think it best to do as you are doing, and NEVER bring anymore attention to them then necessary. You should also only feed them what they will consume in 5 minutes and any straglers should be given some seed as time permits. NEVER leave any extra seed laying around as that will bring attention of unwanted guests, like rats, and also load the birds to the point where they will start reproducing out of control. It is their reproduction that adds to their numbers and that gets them noticed by those who do them harm. It is well meaning people that create bad situations for our birds. IF they are in danger of negative human eyes they shouldn't be fed, and/or moved to a better location.

Thank you for being a responsible feeder, and especially for trying to be nice to one of God's most unfortunate/needy human creatures. We are all His creatures, and he loves us all equally, it's our response to His call that will make an impact in our lives and everyone's lives we touch.

Thank you again for sharing.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I honestly think that I'm not feeding pigeons just to satisface myself, I do that, because I noticed that some of them can't find food easily, especially in the city, if I can help at least a few I'll do it, I went to pick up my uncle a couple days ago to downtown and it was at midnight, it was a big surprise for me to find pigeons on the street or in the garbage looking for food even in the dark and with a very low temperature, they were starving and obviously that was the reason that they were looking for food at that time, it really made me feel bad to seen that, we are all different some people feel more than others, and if I can do something for them I will do it, I'm not trying to please anybody, I know I will find people that are in agree, and others that are in desagree, but I will follow my instints. I'm not killing people, or stealing or begging to anyone, I buy my food and feed them, so again if people are in agree or desagree I'll continue doing it, because these animals are here in this world as us, and they need to eat as well.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Ivor said:


> I honestly think that I'm not feeding pigeons just to satisface myself, I do that, because I noticed that some of them can't find food easily, especially in the city, if I can help at least a few I'll do it, I went to pick up my uncle a couple days ago to downtown and it was at midnight, it was a big surprise for me to find pigeons on the street or in the garbage looking for food even in the dark and with a very low temperature, they were starving and obviously that was the reason that they were looking for food at that time, it really made me feel bad to seen that, we are all different some people feel more than others, and if I can do something for them I will do it, I'm not trying to please anybody, I know I will find people that are in agree, and others that are in desagree, but I will follow my instints. I'm not killing people, or stealing or begging to anyone, I buy my food and feed them, so again if people are in agree or desagree I'll continue doing it, because these animals are here in this world as us, and they need to eat as well.


Thank you for your kindness and concern over one of God's creatures. Your intervention is appreciated. It is those people who overfeed and are irresponsible in feeding our feral flocks that are causing problems for our feral flocks.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi SerendipCA

Actually it is not illegal to feed pigeons in San Fransico in all circumstances, and as Smtihfamily loft points out it is your duty to know, as well as to obey the law, nothing more, nothing less.

The San Fransisco Municipal Code, Art 7, sec. 486, provides that it is illegal to feed or offer food to any bird on any street, highway or sidewalk in the city. By the same section of the Code it does not forbid the feeding of birds in parks, except for wild parakeets. Nor does it forbid the feeding of birds on private property, unless of course it creates a public nuisance, but that requires proof of unhealthy, diseased conditions, etc. Clearly a vacant lot or an alley, for instance would not be a street, highway or sidewalk as well.

Note also that the Code requires arrest for enforcement. That requires that a police officer must observe the act of feeding,and that what ever was being offered meets the definition of "food". In other words evidence must be produced, and that can be difficult if it is inside the bird. The Code also forbids the feeding of any birds, tame, wild or domestic in the same sentence that it forbids the feeding of wild animals. That would mean a person with a parrot could not feed it on a city street, an absurd result; if the city wanted to outlaw feeding wild birds it should have said so. However if the City wants to pay its policemen to chase people around who feed pigeons, it is the City's duty as a law abiding community to meet the requirements of the criminal law and its constitutional parameters.

Given the present fiscal crisis affecting governments all over the nation, that seems to me a terrible waste of the taxpayers money, but that is something for the taxpayers to consider in the next general election.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

Very well put Grimaldy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Ivor said:


> I honestly think that I'm not feeding pigeons just to satisface myself, I do that, because I noticed that some of them can't find food easily, especially in the city, if I can help at least a few I'll do it, I went to pick up my uncle a couple days ago to downtown and it was at midnight, it was a big surprise for me to find pigeons on the street or in the garbage looking for food even in the dark and with a very low temperature, they were starving and obviously that was the reason that they were looking for food at that time, it really made me feel bad to seen that, we are all different some people feel more than others, and if I can do something for them I will do it, I'm not trying to please anybody, I know I will find people that are in agree, and others that are in desagree, but I will follow my instints. I'm not killing people, or stealing or begging to anyone, I buy my food and feed them, so again if people are in agree or desagree I'll continue doing it, because these animals are here in this world as us, and they need to eat as well.


 I understand and apreciate what you are saying, I really...really do. 

I just wanted to voice the delimma of human intervention. It really is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. From an academic viewpoint, I can say feeding feral cats just causes more baby kittens to end up at the SPCA, where many never leave alive, or dead kitty's on the street, etc. etc. Then, what is one to do, when a poor hungry kitty end's up on your back porch, on a freezing winter night crying for food ?  You feed it !! But, under your breath, you curse the human which caused this poor cat to be there on your back porch in such a situation.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I really don't see a problem, Warren,

If you are in San Francisco and the kitty is on your back porch, no violation of the law.
Or you can take it into the nearest alley or city park or vacant lot.

The real problem arises from people making assumptions about what the law provides and forbids without taking the time to go to the public library and reading it for themselves.

For instance just about every other day I run into people in Chicago who want to play at being policemen and tell me that it is unlawful to feed pigeons. In fact it is not unlawful to feed pigeons, that the city code does not mention feeding pigeons or any other animal or bird.
It does forbid dumping food or vegetable matter for rats to feed on, but that is a vastly different matter than hand feeding them or making certain they pick up everything you give them.

If ignorance is bliss, there should be many more happy people in the world then seems to be.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Also, before you think I am ignoring the point you are trying to make about human intervention, your logic is flawed.

If you think there is a correlation between the existence of feral cats, or any other kind of wild animal, and feeding them (or showing minimal kindness), remember that they were here long before you were born and will be for many years after you are gone, whether you feed them or not. Depriving them of food and kindness however is a subtle form of cruelty, an effort to make their already tenuous existence more burdensome in the hope of eliminating some of them. Eradicating them, impossible, that is why they are feral. Increasing their misery, certainly. 

"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
Pythagoras, mathematician


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Aaahhhhhhhh!!!

I hate to hold my thoughts about this topic, but I rather keep my hands away from the keyboard...Some might get OFFENDED about what I'm going to say...So I leave it alone...



"Sometimes Common Sense Is Not Common Anymore"​


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Having failed to keep your hands off your keyboard, or your thoughts completely to yourself, at least you might explain why you think someone would be offended by what it is you want to say.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

See, the way I see it, if I express my thoughts in here more and more, it's like I'm inviting a challenge of debate..No matter what others will say, people got their own mind and do what they want to do or say what they want to say, with-out thinking anymore...So I leave it alone...I'm not into a long forever debate if people don't like to hear what other people think about their doings, just leave it alone...

My grandparents always say: "don't say I didn't warn you"...


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I'm going to hell then, I also feed 2 feral cats in my back yard for many years, after my pigeons are gone, no, I honestly understand you guys point, a friend of mine one day told me why you worry about these pigeons, I saw one that was sick and she said they are going to be fine, they find the cure by nature, and I asked her if she find the cure by nature when she get sick? I don't know I just think that we can't change other people but either way nobody will change my mentality, I can respect it, but I won't share that, again we follow what it make us feel better is easy sometimes to just ignore a situation, is comfortable, but if I do that, I'm not happy about myself, I keep thinking that I had the opportunity to help someone and I didn't make any move. anyways is good to read all the opinions here.

Ivette


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Pegasus, we all have different opinions and we are also adults and respect each other, I think is always to read different opinions you learn and take what you think is important for you.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

As a matter of fact, I had my long opinion typed about all of the convo on here but I choose not to send it...Instead I said this...I'll keep my peace than to offend peoples and their feelings...




Pegasus said:


> Aaahhhhhhhh!!!
> 
> I hate to hold my thoughts about this topic, but I rather keep my hands away from the keyboard...Some might get OFFENDED about what I'm going to say...So I leave it alone...
> 
> ...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

To the initial author of this original post:

We all have to eventually deal with confrontational people, those who appose us. Stand firm but remain diplomatic. Help this woman, try to extend an "olive branch" if you can. 

I myself have been reminded time and time again, you get better results with honey rather than salt.

Humans are very difficult creatures to deal with, but like others here who have suggested, perhaps you could compromise and meet her on "her" terms. If not, then that's your prerogative most assuredly.

Good luck and best wishes over this situation!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*No Law Againest Being Stupid or Unkind....*



Grimaldy said:


> ......The real problem arises from people making assumptions about what the law provides and forbids without taking the time to go to the public library and reading it for themselves......
> 
> For instance just about every other day I run into people in Chicago who want to play at being policemen and tell me that it is unlawful to feed pigeons. In fact it is not unlawful to feed pigeons, that the city code does not mention feeding pigeons or any other animal or bird.....
> If ignorance is bliss, there should be many more happy people in the world then seems to be.


 What are you suggesting then, that if there is no law against a particular behavior..due to one's diligent research in the law library....that it is OK to expand a wild feral population of cats, pigeons, ducks, or whatever, regardless of the long term pain and suffering it causes ?

If there is no law currently on the books in that particular muncipality, then perhaps there should be one. There is no law currently on the books in our area to spay and neuter cats and dogs, but one only has to visit our local SPCA and talk with the staff to get an understanding of how careless humans cause untold misery. Our local SPCA kills 50 to 75 cats a week, and half as many dogs. Why ? Unwanted animals...little "play things" that people grow tired of, and often simply toss them from a car onto SPCA property. 

Unfortnantely, there is "No Law Againest being Stupid", so I guess many of those actors go to bed at night, snug in their warm beds, with a clear conscious. 

Shame...shame...shame....


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pegasus said:


> As a matter of fact, I had my long opinion typed about all of the convo on here but I choose not to send it...Instead I said this...I'll keep my peace than to offend peoples and their feelings...



Perhaps at the end of the day, I will have wished, despite my best intentions, that I had just reframed from contributing to this discussion. This issue is very emotional to those who wish to feed wild birds and animals, in spite of the evidence, that this intervention upsets the natural balance of the population. And with the case of pigeons, typically results in local goverments hiring people then to kill pigeons in order to put things back in balance. And in the case of feral cats (by the way I own 6 cats...yep a cat lover also) results in SPCA kill programs. 

I would rather see "my" feral flocks here in the city, head out every morning to the coutryside, and feed, and then return in the evening. They are a "manageable" size, in that they go mostly unnoticed. Once in awhile, one will enter my loft. I give them a couple of shots for PMV etc. And release them the following day after a good meal. Sometimes they do hang around for awhile, one lived with us for several weeks this summer, but up to this point, they return to where ever they came from. My impact on the feral colony, was only to reduce PMV. 

By and large, the same argument could be made for NOT feeding the bears in our National parks...it's dangerous....it causes the bears to act unnatural...but people still want to "help" the poor bears. In the end, such activity causes the bear to be shot. But, such people will argue that to feed the bears is the "right" thing to do...you can't reason with them. 

I suggest people build a loft in there back yard, if they love to feed pigeons. OK.....I'm done here...got it out of my system.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*My take*

Feed, but do not overfeed as to disturb the balance of nature. You have disturb the balance of nature when overpopulation is observed.

Not all laws are bad.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2008)

if there was as much kindness in the world as there is pubs the world would be a better place lol


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

*I've been feeding the ferals in my neighborhood daily (and massively) for nearly twenty years now. * 

*My observations: *

No more sick, maimed, lamed and eventually squished birds (often) flopping around in the middle of the street waiting to die after being hit by a car - which for some reason, _I don't _consider to be "Nature's Way" of controlling the feral population.

*The feral population around here:*

_Constant._ No more, no less than when I first started. Really. Only difference: the 'hood no longer looks like a concentration camp for pigeons, with an unhealthy, half-starved and suffering population barely hanging on year in, year out. It took a number of years and a lot of dedication to get to that point.

*Advantages:* 

Happy birds, nicer atmosphere around here. You get a suffering population of animals, and there goes the neighborhood. Of course, some people are already so far gone that they never notice, let alone care. 

*Disadvantages:* 

Being ticketed by the French Plainclothes Pigeon Police. Yep, these guys really exist. They'll lurk for days in an unmarked car, waiting for (generally) old ladies and the unsound of mind to throw a bit of leftover bread down for the birds - and then hit them with a hundred-dollar fine. I even know an eighty-year-old woman who was 'apprehended' by these idiots on _Christmas Eve_. Your (French) tax dollars at work.

*Other Disadvantages:* 

Being insulted and/or aggressed by the locals. The natives do get restless, but it's pretty much a national characteristic; last time, it was about the Jews. Now it's the pigeons. Same arguments, same sort of people. As for me, I've learned to insult/aggress them back even worse. Being the cowards and mental defectives they generally are, they shut up, go away....and take out their rage on wives, kids, pets, etc. Sad, but not my problem. Maybe if the Pigeon Police weren't so busy....

*Conclusion:*

The _"You're only preventing Nature from taking its course, while setting up the ferals for even harsher human intervention"_ argument is patently false. But never try to convince someone who believes it: it's a waste of time, which you could be using to feed those little turkeys. 

In short, do what your heart is telling you to do: in this case, it's not opposed to reason - which is why I've taken the time to post this here. And anyway, it's practically dawn: in a few hours, I'll be bringing another day's worth of vitamins, protein and love to the local beaks - as well as providing the Pigeon Police with a justification for lurking in unmarked cars day in and day out trying to catch me!


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To Smithfamilyloft;

As I pointed out, the logic in your reasoning is seriously flawed. You begin with the assumption that the human urban community can regulate or manage as you put it, the feral animal population of birds and animals. Then when it is clear that "management" does not work because it results in population growth and a corresponding rush to exterminate in the name of the same "management", you blame the humans for their inhumanity to feral animals.

Over one hundred years ago, it was clear to the naturalists that nature favors the adaptation of species that are able to survive. The feral pigeon's presence in the urban setting is precisely such adaptation, as the feral cat, the feral dog and coyote, hawk and owl. It is because of that adaptation and the corresponding noticeable presence that urban dwellers have rushed to "manage" the species that are adapting and surviving. As I pointed out, survival is the business of all forms of life on this planet. Whether you choose to show kindness and humanity reflects on you, not on the animals.
They, like us, are biologically driven to propagate their species and tinkering with the machinery of death in the name of "management" is a waste of time and resources. That is not to say that certain species can and do present a serious danger to the survival of humans; look no further than the cougar and the wolf. But the feral pigeon is not in that category. The pigeon has simply become a target for mean, sadistic people who project their own anger, frustration and self hatred on to a inoffensive, trusting bird.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Well, we are having a very polemic subject here, and the conclusion to me, is that we have to do what we feel is right and make us feel better, we won't change other people's mind, we have our believes and at the end the only one that will say you are wrong is God, but I think we all have good reasons and good points here, and we all want the best for these birds or animals in general, we all have different ways to demostrate it, I keep thinking the same way, and my ferals are always there especially when is raining they are still waiting for me, they trust in me they know that I'll be there even if I get wet. so we need to do what we feel is the correct way.

Ivette


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I, for one, Serendipity...applaud your actions (living in th same city, to boot).

Sometimes you just have drop the airs of civility and just go toe-to-toe. It's not something I like to do, and it's probably not something most folks here like to do...but sometimes it's the only language other people understand.

Better off to educate and discuss...

but...

Sometimes you just gotta regulate on folks....


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jaye said:


> I, for one, Serendipity...applaud your actions (living in th same city, to boot).
> 
> Sometimes you just have drop the airs of civility and just go toe-to-toe. It's not something I like to do, and it's probably not something most folks here like to do...but sometimes it's the only language other people understand.
> 
> ...


This is an International Site, so perhaps I should explain to readers that we are talking about the city of "San Francisco". For many of us who live in the heart land of America, you may as well be talking about Mars, it is like the difference between night and day. I do have pigeon fancier friends in the state of California, but for some unexplained reasons that I have yet to be able to fathom, I have yet to find anyone who lives in San Francisco, that I have been able to see eye to eye on, regarding any subject, even the time of day. 

Now, this is not to say that they are wrong and I am right. I could be wrong. I have been wrong before about various ideas. And they are free to express their views, and even "drop the airs of civility and just go toe-to-toe"...

From my perspective, this subject is not about what may be in the best interest's of a wild population of birds or animals. It's about the needs and wants of humans. The various enviromental "experts" have already published their opinions on this subject, in regards to this matter. 

Just a few links that showed up when I entered : Feeding Wild Animals into a search engine. One from the State of California.

http://www.paws.org/wildlife/resources/fact_sheets/feedingwildlife.php

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/news06/06087.html

http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/WildlifeStewardship/DontFeedAnimals/dontfeedanimals.html

And the results : "The fact that in a lot of residential and urban regions it's definable common for people to intentionally feed pigeons, makes it easier for the birds to make permanent homes in a specific area." as stated on this pigeon control site: http://www.articlesbase.com/environment-articles/pigeon-control-75402.html


Do your own research, draw your own conclusions.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One of my favorite short stories is "How Pitsburgh returned to the Jungle", by Haniel Long.


I wish all Urban areas would 'return to the Jungle' as best they can.



...sigh...


Phil
l v


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

The title of this post is interesting because, for me, it brings to mind two old sayings:

"Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind."

and

"Killing them with kindness."

Old sayings are usually valid because they contain a kernal of truth.

I won't take sides on this one because I have been on both sides of the issue.

I totally understand those who feel the need to help the birds, especially during the winter when food is hard to find.

But, Warren is also right, in his opinions. I learned the hard way that kindness can sometimes get out of hand and cause problems not only for the feeder but, in the long run, for the birds that people are trying to help, out of kindness.

We probably have to agree to disagree on this topic and try to find a balance between what our hearts and what our common sense tells us. Being totally one-sided will not help us or the birds.

Linda


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

As with most issues which lack a clear cut answer, there is no "right" or "wrong", unless the whole point of the debate is to "win" in some unexplained manner.

The whole point of debate is to sharpen the focus of issues and to contribute thoughts in the hope that a solution may appear. To the extent one's thoughts and opinions are driven by ego,that possibility becomes ever so much less likely.

The two sides of the discussion that have emerged is, first the view that the interests of humans in the urban setting should predominate to the exclusion and eradication if necessary of wildlife that interferes with the human interest. The other view is that wildlife can be accommodated in the urban setting by methods other than extermination and eradication, and should be accommodated for not only esthetic reasons but also for humanitarian reasons. (Even if the humanitarian reasons are a bit subtle.)

To the extent we have more thoughts and opinions the more likely we may come to solutions acceptable to both sides.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

*i share the same oppinion as you*

i think it's all about how people were raised.
if im downtown lets say and i see people walkin by pigeons, some of people actually look their way, look not to step on them, or just look to see what is that pigeon doing.
And there are some women with kids that tell their kids : get away.
and those kids grow up to be just like their mothers.
and there is more haters in the world than people like me.
I love the pigeons, i admire them, their strenght, their postures, the way they keep together.
they are just amazing in any way u look at it.
how many birds can survive downtown???
yeah maybe 2 kinds of birds , those brown little finches that keep close to pigeons and who else than pigeons.

i remember one day i was at the park downtown, and what better company to have around me than pigeons.
so i was feeding them and minding my own busines when one guy came close to me and said u gonna get sick from them, i said why, he3 said cause they have all kinds of bacteria..
imane that, he acted like he knew something, i said to him, mannnn u have more bacteria in your mouth than these 30 birds together.
he walked away thinkin im some crazy girl..
i am so relaxed when i sit at that park, either that be my lunch breake or just a day off. they calm me down. 
the way they take a bath, i must have a million pictures of wet pigeons i think its cute..
or at work, there is a garage two pigeons usually come together, they are a couple, cause i seen them kissin,,, and i been workin at this place last 2 years only sat and sun and i always bring them food, they are used to it..
sooooo every sat and sun they come in in the morning and wait for me...
so last 2 weeks i been workin there full time and i noticed they aint in garage.. imagine that, they really just come in when they think im there.
isnt that being smart or what
so if somebody tells me something bad about pigeons, guess what im ready to argue


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk goga82. It's nice to have a new pigeon loving flock member here! 

Terry


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

After a long absence here, and after re-reading this thread again, I'm forced to admit that I was initially mistaken.  Warren has thought this issue though brilliantly, but ever-so-slightly misdirected his advice concerning the species involved.

The root cause is the human race in its entirety! The solution? Warren has just given it to us: stop feeding and/or making it possible for humans to nourish themselves and reproduce! The weakest and least-resistant will go first, of course. No more poor and homeless! Wow, what a breath of fresh air for those of us who remain   

But that's just the start: to keep the degenerate species which **** Sapiens Sapiens has become from reproducing, destroying the eco-system and generally making the existence of all the earth's flora and fauna an increasingly living hell, we could progressively apply Warren's technique of attrition to _everyone, everywhere._ Initially, only the very healthiest, intelligent and strongest would surivive. Pure natural selection, just as Dear Old Mother Nature intended! 

Ultimately however - and here's where it really gets good - birth rates would fall beneath the level needed to perpetuate our species, culminating in its definitive extinction!

Who's with me on ushering in a new and rational approach to the problem of the human race's overrunning of the planet with its disease, filth, wars, arrogance, stupidity and destruction?

Am I serious? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_MJAOyOeU

_You betcha!_ 


*
*
*


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Call me a People person....*



ryannon said:


> After a long absence here, and after re-reading this thread again, I'm forced to admit that I was initially mistaken.  Warren has thought this issue though brilliantly, but ever-so-slightly misdirected his advice concerning the species involved.
> 
> The real mess is the human race in its entirety! The solution? Warren has just given it to us: stop feeding and/or making it possible for humans to nourish themselves and reproduce! The weakest and least-resistant will go first, of course. No more poor and homeless! Wow, what a breath of fresh air for those of us who remain
> 
> ...


Well....this approach has been tried before, throughout history. The most recent attempt was with the polices put in place during the 1930's and 1940's by the German goverment under Adolf Hitler. If someone were to seriously suggest, that we manage the human population like we have "managed" various other animals, well my suggestion would be to first of all, apply these methods first to yourself and then to your own family. I know my family had numerous members who fought to prevent the Nazis from fullfilling their dreams, and I suspect we would do the same thing all over again, should someone attempt to "manage" the human species in such a manner again. And I suspect there are hundreds of millions of people just like me......

I like animals, and I like people. But, push come to shove, I sort of like humans more. And if a bear or a wolf, or a dog, were attempting to eat a child, well, I am going to side with the kid on this one. Most likely would risk my own life, to save a child, even if I don't "know" them. Maybe that is why we have survived all these thousands of centuries, while other creatures have not ?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Why can't people just be kind?

Because they have a free will to decide which way they want to go-to be kind or to be cruel. Some people think they can control, when in reality only God controls and makes decisions of life and death.

If each of us would pray and READ the Bible,not just for ourselves but for each other and live as Jesus did in this world,all issues would resolve themselves. 

God has total control over everything, and He would not allow anything to happen if He didn't want it to. He is loving and merciful and you have the choice to be close to Him or not at all. His mercy will end, and then justice will prevail.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Why can't people just be kind?
> 
> Because they have a free will to decide which way they want to go-to be kind or to be cruel. Some people think they can control, when in reality only God controls and makes decisions of life and death.
> 
> ...


 OH Trees ...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

ryannon said:


> The real mess is the human race in its entirety! The solution? Warren has just given it to us: *stop feeding and/or making it possible for humans to nourish themselves *and reproduce! The weakest and least-resistant will go first, of course. No more poor and homeless! Wow, what a breath of fresh air for those of us who remain


Ryannon,
That is an incredibly cruel and disrespectful comment. 
To even think of, let alone post, such a suggestion sickens me. 




SmithFamilyLoft said:


> *If someone were to seriously suggest, that we manage the human population like we have "managed" various other animals, well my suggestion would be to first of all, apply these methods first to yourself and then to your own family.*


Good idea! 

Cindy


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Love you too, Cins.

Have a good one!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> Some people think they can control, when in reality only God controls and makes decisions of life and death.
> 
> *God has total control over everything, and He would not allow anything to happen if He didn't want it to.*


 
If that's the case, given all the needless suffering, killings (any living being), unfaithfulness, ect., ect., that goes on, God need to adjust his halo.  JMO

Cindy


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Why can't people just be kind?
Have you ever met a person who doesn’t think that is kind for him/herself?
I didn’t.
Serendipity feeds pigeons, she is breaking the law, don’t we all do?
Someone will say no I don’t! And you newer ever paid speeding ticket or parking fine? This is also breaking the law.
We are only humans and if we where perfect law would not exist.
People as Jesus set example of kindness, but do not forget that Jesus was crucified in accordance with the law at that time. Should we crucify Serendipity???
P.S. I like Pegasus statement “If they don’t catch you it’s OK to break a law.” LOL


> I will never give them any chance to get to me, my best suggestion to this, scattered the feed at night




P.P.S.


> If that's the case, given all the needless suffering, killings (any living being), unfaithfulness, ect., ect., that goes on, God need to adjust his halo. JMO


God is not policemen!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There's nothing like dredging up a old, heated thread, to get us all going, all over again.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Haven't any of you guys ever read A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift? Sheesh!

Margaret


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Margarret said:


> Haven't any of you guys ever read A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift? Sheesh!
> 
> Margaret



Oh the Humanity! 

Given some of the reactions so far, I rather doubt it.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

FYI....

A Modest Proposal was satire. See the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal


I believe Ryannon's post was in the spirit of satire.


Linda


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Lin Hansen said:


> FYI....
> 
> A Modest Proposal was satire. See the following link:
> 
> ...



DING! DING! DING!

We've got a winner, folks!


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Forget the poor pigeons for a moment.

The real question is, WHY CAN'T PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM BE KIND TO EACH OTHER? 


/sound of crickets....


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I'm not going to talk about this topic again, I remember when I made my comments about it, anyways I just want to say hi to Ryannon, I didn't see you for a long time here, email me when you have a chance. 

Ivette


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> FREE WILL!!! .... and perhaps being a little to self centered.... instead of God centered.


Since Poopzilla has taken over my life, I've become totally 'Zilla centered. Frankly, I can't decide whether he's an emissary of Darkness or Light. If it's the latter, why does he bite my toes? 

Nothing very angelic about that, let me tell you. I think I need to talk to him about _Free Will._


Ryannon, 

Confused in Paris.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ryannon said:


> Since Poopzilla has taken over my life, I've become totally 'Zilla centered. Frankly,*I can't decide whether he's an emissary of Darkness or Light. * If it's the latter, why does he bite my toes?
> 
> Nothing very angelic about that, let me tell you. I think I need to talk to him about _Free Will._
> 
> ...


  

He brings light to your life, therefore...the latter...and he is just too darn cute and can get away with it, even if it is naughty.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> _He brings light to your life, therefore...*the first*_...and he is just too darn cute and can get away with it, even if it is naughty.



The 'first' was an emissary of Darkness!

You see what I mean? He's already exercising his powers on you! 

No one can imagine what I'm enduring here


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ryannon said:


> The 'first' was an emissary of Darkness!
> 
> You see what I mean? He's already exercising his powers on you!
> 
> No one can imagine what I'm enduring here


Corrected, and he does have a very strong power, the power of attraction.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ryannon said:


> Forget the poor pigeons for a moment.
> 
> The real question is, WHY CAN'T PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM BE KIND TO EACH OTHER?
> 
> /sound of crickets....




That my friend, has taken us full circle, and has been the question of mankind for many thousands of years. We have gotten so far off topic, I forgot almost that this was about feeding wild animals. Ironically, as history has shown, the greatest predator to man, is man himself. Walk a dark street at night in any major city, and the odds are, it will be human who attempts to prey on you, and not a pack of 4 legged wolves. 

Just under the skin, and surface, a salvage is in all of us. It is primal in nature, and along with forms of aggression, hostility etc. is all part of what we are. We are all here, because for the most part our ancestors were in some way, shape or form, better at surviving. And when I say ancestors, I mean many hundreds of generations if not thousands or many tens of thousands, and only God knows, hundreds of thousands or millions of generations. 

In order to explain, or cope, or whatever word should be used to explain what some may refer to as "evil" many religions attempt to explain this dichotomy ? Is that the word I am looking for ?

Someone who is very passionate, shared her faith, as her strength in dealing with such issues. And to be fair, this site covers many nations and cultures. I counted 22 different "major" religions in the world. Those could be broken down by denominations, sects, etc. All pretty much attempt to explain the duel nature of man. But, if we invite comment from every religion and splinter group, to share comment on such an issue, we invite chaos. 

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

The reason why this issue arises, is because people attempt to inject morality into reasons why humans should feed wild animals. In order for there to be a moral question here, requires one to adhere to a very specific perspective. 

And in my personal judgement, if one for example, thinks they are above the law, and they are on some sort of special mission from God to save animals, and they don't like people very much. I would begin to think that perhaps a call to Home Land Security is in order. But, that is me.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I assume Ryannon's piece was a scaling up of the attitude of so many out there to pigeons, a shocking 'what if?', but Warren has summed it up pretty much



> We have gotten so far off topic, I forgot almost that this was about feeding wild animals.


Which constitutes a good reason for closing the thread!



> But, if we invite comment from every religion and splinter group, to share comment on such an issue, we invite chaos.


Absolutely - and precisely why most web forums discourage religious interjections!

John


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