# please help..very sick..urgent



## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

hello..just joined the forum..i had brought 2 pigeons about 2 wks back froma local pet store here in my area..1 week back,one of them started some sort of disease n started twisting his neck n goin out of control when this happens.and it happens a lot of times too..now two days back the other pigeon has started showing some other symptom..he would shake his head up n down only the head not including the neck..n of late his condition has worsened
i m nt experienced with pigeons..these are the 2 of the four pigeons that i have brought..first time...so please help..

!!!
pics...i am posting a few pics 
















the one on left with twisted neck started getting sick first n this is the situation of the other today


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I think its the disease PMV and it seems to be serious and advanced stages.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

You belong to which locality ? You may need to contact a vet or a pigeon rescue team immediately please


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2010)

this does look like pmv and if it is all you can do is supportive care as its a virus and has no cure .. they can get thru it but it takes alot of time for the birds to do so .. please read this link ..http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12250.html


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Actually for a change I have to say that that neck torsion is more typical of the neurological form of paratyphoid than PMV, I have only seen that in photographs but have always noticed that there is a difference in the "stargazing" associated with both illlnesses.. In my own experience when a pigeon frst develops stargazing as a result in PMV, they look as if turning their heads upside down is the most natural thing in the world. Later on, when they develop fits or they have a fit, it looks twisted, but not as twisted as the pigeon in the second photo.

Perhaps other members with experience of PMV can either confirm this as their experience or confirm that they have seen that degree of torsion in a PMV pidge? Or perhaps someone that has hands on experience of the neurological form of meningitis? I would be inclined to risk Baytril on this occasion, if you can get it as it crosses the blood/brain barrier.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I think is PMV, if you have more birds just keep them separated, that is a desease and is transmitted only to birds, I found a PMV feral pigeon and the only thing that you can do is to keep them separated with enough food and water but for the water try something not deep because when they have the seizures they throw everything, is hard to see them but if is possible cover then a little bit and keep them in a warm area and quiet, you can talk sweet to them and clean, with some time they will be better, but you have to make sure that they eat, if they don't eat you have to hand feed them, but I hope they can still eat by themselves, with some time you will see the improvement from both birds, my bird was terrible seizures all the time, but still was able to eat by himself, I just let him be there quiet and boring, I put a towel so when they have seizures at least is less painful, so with time he is mostly a normal bird now, doesn't have any seizures anymore the only thing probably is that cannot fly like a normal bird, but the rest he is like another bird and became so pretty now. 

So just do that, and with time they will both be better. 

Ivette


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have had at least 34 ferals with PMV, and I really think there is room for doubt here. 

Are there any other symptoms consistent with PMV (spinning in circles, pecking and missing, poops formed but in puddles?)

I have e-mailed Pidgey, plamneh, Jules and Nooti to have a look as they have all had PMV patients.

In the meantime here is a sad but infromative video on the neurological symptoms of paratyphoid.

http://www.pigeontv.com/public/113.cfm


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Regardless of which it is...I think it's important to reiterate to Mich that the birds will get thru this OK with the proper care...don't worry, they very likely won't die if you take the right steps.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Regardless of which it is...I think it's important to reiterate to Mich that the birds will get thru this OK with the proper care...don't worry, they very likely won't die if you take the right steps.


Absolutely! PMV needs supportive care only as it is a virus, but paratyphoid is a bacterial infection and needs antibiotics. The snag is that antibiotics can aggravate the course of PMV. That is why, although I disagree with the use of antibiotics as a prophylactic in cases of PMV I said that in this case I would consider the risk worthwhile...of course, a vet's opinion would be best, unless the vet recommends euthanasia which would be wrong!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Plamen has just reminded me: whatever they have you must ensure that they get plenty of fluids so they don't become dehydrated, vitamins, probiotics (if not on antibiotics) and they need to be kept warm (heat pad or heat lamp).


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Mich, Please post some pictures of their fresh poop.
Also if you can give more details of their behavior, eating, drinking and if there is any smell that you noticed.
As Jaye mentioned, with proper care, your birds will recover. Keep in mind that they most probably cannot get enough food, you will need to help.
Fluids are extremely important as Fefo said. If they are dehydrated they symptoms will become worse.
Do you have any medicines on hand and do you have a Vet in your area?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I was talking to one of my avian vets the other day about which antibiotics would work best crossing the blood-brain barrier. He said something to the effect that they don't usually cross, but when there's an infection, they kinda' let their guard down and then some antiobiotics will cross fairly easily. He didn't mention Baytril, but did mention Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Penicillin. Anyhow, if I were going to try and take a shot at these birds in assuming that it's Paratyphoid, I'd go with one of those. If the Penicillin, I'd probably try to get injectable and so treat.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Looking at the color on those poops on the paper, though... I might worry that it's getting pretty late if the actual urates are that horrible electric bluegreen color. When you see them start getting like that, it's time to hit 'em with a shotgun blast because there's organ involvement. That's IF... the urates are green.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> He said something to the effect that they don't usually cross, but when there's an infection, they kinda' let their guard down and then some antiobiotics will cross fairly easily. He didn't mention Baytril, but did mention Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Penicillin. Anyhow, if I were going to try and take a shot at these birds in assuming that it's Paratyphoid, I'd go with one of those. If the Penicillin, I'd probably try to get injectable and so treat.


Thanks Pidgey...the "Baytril and blood/brain barrier" is something I picked up on a forum without double checking ...maybe one of those things that is considered true by repetition rather than proof !


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

ok...i forgot to mention..the one on the right side is not feeding at all what so ever...the other one can drink as well as feed pretty good.the poop is very watery n with some electric green color as someone mentioned...i have no idea how to hand feed them..i have been putting b complex,n chloroquine tabs in the water as some of my friends said...the one on the right just shakes his head and at other times wud just curl up his neck like in 2nd pic..other one from time to time gets his neck twisted like in the pic n moves around trying to get back in control n within about 5 - 10 secs gets back to vertical base..

pls tell how to feed manually n what to feed..


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> I think its the disease PMV and it seems to be serious and advanced stages.


hey man...i am from ur locality too..calicut kerala india...can u giv your fone number....


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

plamenh said:


> Hi Mich, Please post some pictures of their fresh poop.
> Also if you can give more details of their behavior, eating, drinking and if there is any smell that you noticed.
> As Jaye mentioned, with proper care, your birds will recover. Keep in mind that they most probably cannot get enough food, you will need to help.
> Fluids are extremely important as Fefo said. If they are dehydrated they symptoms will become worse.
> Do you have any medicines on hand and do you have a Vet in your area?


pic will post asap
one on ryt no eating other eats pretty well
both can drink-the ryt 1 slightly
medicines-i can get.which should i go for??


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

mich537 said:


> hey man...i am from ur locality too..calicut kerala india...can u giv your fone number....


I work out of Bangalore. If you are located in Calicut then I think you should immediately take atleast the most affected pigeon to the vet hospital. The Govt. vet hospital is located opposite to Fathima Hospital near Christian College (Nadakkavu), hope you know the area. 

The doctors will be on duty from 8 am - 8 pm if I remember correctly. On Sundays (tomorrow) doctors will be available only till 12:30 in the noon. There are about 7 doctors and at a time atleast 4 are available working in shifts

I had a case where one of my whites had the same issue of neck twisting, it was pigeon malaria, doctor prescribed Primaquin tablet dissolved in 30ml of water 15 drops each 3 times a day. I fed the pigeon chickpea soaked in water one day before for the entire treatment period. The pigeon recovered excellent in about three weeks time.

One vet medical shop is inside the hospital, one is on the opposite side near Fathima hospital and there are 3 more opposite to the petrol pump near the vet hospital. Did u buy these pigeons from Calicut ? which pet shop/breeder, you may need to inform them as their other pigeons may be already affected and carrying the virus.

Goodluck


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you buy frozen peas in India? If so,you can hand feed peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. 
If he is wrapped in towel he wont be able to struggle much.You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the bird’s crop empties until you know it is eating on their own.
The birds need to be kept warm and clean.
The advice screeshs gave you about taking one to the vet, is the best action you can take and you must do it as soon as possible. I don't need to tell you how urgent this situation is.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Defrost peas and corn in hot water and feed them one at a time as per this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Try to get 100 pieces into each pigeon a day, you might have to break the meals down into frequent small feeds to avoid stressing them too much.

It is important to start the antibiotic treatment as soon as possible.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Take both of them to the hospital Sreesh mentioned. Let Vets check them and keep in mind that whatever is, can be treated. Insist on treatment.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Posted twice, sorry.


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

i can just imagine what u going thry looking at those birds suffering..i feel your pain


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

poop from the one on left side


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)




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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

You need to find one of these antibiotics:
*Cholramphenicol* - Dosage 30 - 50 mg/bird, 2 times a day
*Amoxicillin* - Dosage 25 mg/Bird twice a day 
*Baytril* - Dosage 5 - 10 mg/bird daily 
*Doxycicline* - Dosage 10 - 50 mg/ bird once a day
*Aureomycin* - tablet 25 mg a day
*Kanamycin:* Dosage: .01 mgl to one gram of body weight intramuscularly twice daily.
*Gentamycin:* Dosage: .01 mg to one gram of body weight intramuscularly once daily or 25 mg. to 120 ml of drinking water orally.
*Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole Suspension:* Dosage .002 ml to one gram of body
weight orally twice daily.
*Sodium Sulfachiorpridazine Powder:* Dosage ¼ tsp to 120 ml drinking water

This is bacterial infection and I would say salmonella. Try to act as soon as possible, any Vet may prescribe antibiotic. In case that you see no improvement, in let say 4 days, switch to another antibiotic.
Supportive care is a must.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Just a thought - I would give them Spartrix (Carnidazole) too, as you don't know if they are clean of trichomonas.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think I'd give them Gentamicin (Gentamycin--it's not always spelled the same) parenterally (by a needle). That one can really be bad.

The "electric green" urates demonstrate "biliverdinuria" ("biliverdin" in the urine), which means bad liver involvement. I'm not sure from those pictures above that that's the case--I've seen some pretty awful electric bluegreen urates before and it's always bad--not always fatal, but they're very, very close to dying when you see that. In normal poop, there are bile salts used to break down fats that are very dark green. When a poop ends up on white paper, that green stuff will leach out into the surrounding paper and urates. As such, you kinda' have to differentiate what's going on. Here's a post with a picture of true biliverdinuria:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=346673&postcount=1

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

*to mich537*

To me it looks like pmv and its pretty bad. If the poo is really mushy and smelly and when you disturb the bird and it doesn't plop around and twist more than usual because you disturbed it then it might be a bacteria form of disease called Paratyphoid and needs Batril from a vet or rehabitor....I really don't think the birds will make it....If it is the virus form Paramyxovirus then you have a chance of saving the birds if you give it supported care meaning you might have to feed it food and water every few hours until it can possibly eat on its own-----its a long healing process---4 to 6 weeks. There are no antibiotics for the virus---just supportive therapy----Pedililite---can.t spell (Pediatric electrolyte) and pigeon mix---small seeds little by little and green peas(uncooked and also baby food--little bit at a time and lettuce, some pieces of apples, eggs, baby cereal, whole wheat bread, oatmeal and a good vitamin mixed in water (not too much vitamin)Keep the bird warm and don"t give them cold food--warm it--pigeon mix mostly little by little and whatever else--small dove seed--millet etc. etc...I told you what I know and I am sure other people will tell you what they know about these two diseases. If it is the virus there is a chance the bird will survive it you give supported care. I have a wild pigeon right now that is about 60 hours into the twisting phrase of this sickness and each day it improves little by little---.
ISOLATE these birds because they are very contagious..wash, wash and wash your hands and clothing if you are around other birds--you will be fine but other birds won,t be----good luck ----and welcome to bird land and its problems......lots of work........ c-herts keep them hydrated.......


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

ok..... there's lots of meds and advice coming out here but I am a little alarmed at the number of meds being recommended. 
One look at that poop and it would suggest at the very least the birds need Trim/sulpha to deal with bacterial problems which are obviously in the system and would probably be more life-threatening than a virus..
I wouldn't like to diagnose PMV v Paratyphoid without examining the bird. Baytril is the recommended for Paratyphoid but I would be inclined to try just the Co-trim first. It's a fantastic little antibiotic for birds, and if they show little improvement within 36-48 hours then dose with Baytril as well. Both antibiotics can be given at the same time as there are no contra-indications. I had a quick look at someone's suggested dosages and didn't see anything to argue over.
If it's PMV it will be a long job, weeks, sometimes months depending on the severity. My worst bird, Speckie was at least 6 months witha twisted neck, and a non flyer for a year. If you can feed them through the early stages, they manage to self feed as they improve.
There, that's my pennyworth added to the pot. Hope it helps


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

hey guys..i cant thank u guys enuf foor the wealth of information and assurance that u gave...the birds conditions hav become stable i think.i mean the one that seemed severly ill,is now mch more stable and kindo more active...earlier i had to force food into his mouth but now he has learned to associate me holding him to getting fed..so wn i open his cage now he cums running n starts pecking at my hands now for food..very very thanks for that hand feeding video..it has really helped me and my bird get bonded very much...the other one is still eating and stable..

thanks to all of you and to the creators for coming up with such a great forum..
3 cheers for pigeons.biz...n all its members..you are awesum..thanks...


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Now thats a cheerful update, good luck. I would still recommend ,may be later, you do a test on the poop and the blood, its done free at the hospital.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I really had doubts if these birdies would make it and that is a cheerful update--please keep up posted on how these birds are doing--I have one right now about 130 hours into the spasms and getting better each day--yesterday for the first time I took a longer trip out of the house because it was eating pretty good on its own and not losing most of it with the spasms--water was what I was concerned about because I really want to keep it hydrated so it is improving and of course I am a worry wort as well. This pigeon I released (wild) because it seemed unhappy in my loft always going to the outside loft (early in the morning) and trying to get out to its mate I imagine so I let it fly and off it went to the sky..got it because of weakness orginally and I trapped it on my porch because it would not leave and I got it fat and sassy and released. About 100 and more hours ago it was laying sideways on my step to the back door so here we go again and its doing very very well and getting fat once again..c.herts (motor mouth here)


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

just read my post and just to add to it for enhancement---I orginally released this very same bird before wintertime months ago and less than a week back it was sideways on my step--these birds know I'm a sucker and they all come back to me when they are sick and I really prefer to have peace and time for myself--Now when it gets totally well it will go to the loft permanent for I gave it the chance of freedom already and now I call him:::Mr. Pretty...(blue bar very light)---had the wierdest smell to him--orginally thought he might have been poisoned but he wasn"t...c.herts


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

c.hert said:


> just read my post and just to add to it for enhancement---I orginally released this very same bird before wintertime months ago and less than a week back it was sideways on my step--these birds know I'm a sucker and they all come back to me when they are sick and I really prefer to have peace and time for myself--Now when it gets totally well it will go to the loft permanent for I gave it the chance of freedom already and now I call him:::Mr. Pretty...(blue bar very light)---had the wierdest smell to him--orginally thought he might have been poisoned but he wasn"t...c.herts


Well that's a good story, at least this bird had a second chance of life by coming back to you. So glad you're able to keep it this time.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

c.hert said:


> Now when it gets totally well it will go to the loft permanent for I gave it the chance of freedom already and now I call him:::Mr. Pretty...(blue bar very light)---*had the wierdest smell to him*--orginally thought he might have been poisoned but he wasn"t...c.herts


The weirdest smell? Can you describe it? Sometimes a bird like that can smack down on their keel bone and cause a nasty sore right on the keel that has a hard time of healing. It's usually hidden under the feathers so it can be pretty difficult to find if you're not specifically looking for it. The bacteria that seem to affect those have a very peculiar odor that reminds me of dog poop. You might try looking into those feathers to see if that's the case. I had a bird named "Winston" that had that.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Maybe we need a thread on odours? And I am not joking! Lots of rehabbers have referred to the "smell of starvation", then there is the "smell of canker"and I think mouth lesions in herpesvirus have a distinctive odour. Salmonella poos are particularly smelly too!


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Feefo said:


> Maybe we need a thread on odours? And I am not joking! Lots of rehabbers have referred to the "smell of starvation", then there is the "smell of canker"and I think mouth lesions in herpesvirus have a distinctive odour. Salmonella poos are particularly smelly too!


You are right we do need thread on odours. Trichomonas, Salmenella, PMV, Starvation, Candida, YBD all do have smell, the problem is how to describe them so everyone can racognize.
What smells like sweet rose petals in the hot summer day to me (PMV) may smell as something else to others.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Mich, I would not put my guard down just because birds have eaten and they have more energy now. You need to medicate and Vet is the best solution for your birds.


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

plamenh said:


> Mich, I would not put my guard down just because birds have eaten and they have more energy now. You need to medicate and Vet is the best solution for your birds.


ok mate..i am cheking up on them very often so that i can catch every little changes..abt medication,i think i ll keep to the b complex caps n supportive care,as somebody scared me with the high amts of urates that can accumulate.is that ok,mate??.n i certainly will check with the vet very soon.


if i wer to make the pigeons drink,what should i do?syringe??


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

First try to get it to drink on its own-in the beginning its hard- but as they feel better they will--put a shiny silver spoon filled with water up to its face sort of so that they can see it and if they are thirsty and alert they will sip it themselves but sometimes you need to water them and a small push type of tube with measurements on it is good--little by little so that you don't drown them or soak water in food items and give them that (wheat bread soaked,peas,etc etc but they need to keep hydrated this is the most important...or put a small bowel of water up to their face and see if they will dig in..etc..


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## mich537 (Jan 15, 2010)

i have done the bowl upto face level..n he used to drink..but today,afta makin the first post i went to feed him but he din drink wn i did dat...i dunno if he drank while i was away as i keep a large container of water full time in the cage


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

May be he drank before and didn't want to drink again, but keep a close look, make sure you see him drinking atleast once from the water container.


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