# Pigeon found, injured, his neck is bent and twisted



## grazyna

Pigeon found, lost some feathers. After few hours his neck become twisted and bent. Two days I am giving him antibiotic without improvement of his condition. Able to swallow. Droppings are green with water. Is this infection or injury? How to help. Please respond to my e-mail: [email protected]


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## John_D

grazyna,

Do you mean that his head becomes 'upside down', maybe like he is turning it all the way round to look at the sky? If so, then PMV (paramyxovirus) is a possibility.

Other signs could be that he falls over; that if he tries to pick up food he has problem focusing, or his head jerks and he throws it over his shoulder; that he turns in fast circles; cannot fly (I assume he cannot anyway); that he is more anxious when he is approached. If any of these sound right, it is very likely PMV.

If so, antibiotics will not do anything to fix it, although they could help any other infection he may have.

The usual 'treatment' for PMV is to keep the bird in a nice, quiet, warm place, not too much light. Maybe a cage part covered. He would need a deep pot of seeds, and water. If he cannot eat enough, you may have to help him by holding him still. You may have to feed him. You may have to immerse his beak, but not his nostrils, to get him to drink. 

If you have other birds, keep him isolated. PMV can be caught by other pigeons but not by humans.

If this does not seem to be the problem, please post more in formation on pigeons.com..

John


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## John_D

All,

This bird sounds in a poorly way.

i have been trying to get Grazyna to (a) keep posting about the pigeon on this forum, where she will get more (and probably better) input & (b) to giveenough information to be able to offer suggestions. 

The twisting of the neck suggested either PMV or Paratyphoid, as both can show those symptoms. The pigeon does not, from what I can find out, show the other PMV symptoms, but seems very weak. It had been trying to support itself on its wings, and did stand up a little, but now seems too weak to do anything:

*He do not moving, placed in the basket keeping him in position. His neck is just bent and less twisted. He is not able to eat himself, (syrige) he is drinking 10 times more water than normal pigeon. His droppings are green cord 2/8 inch diameter with water. Ther is no improvement, he is like unlife, just the eyes shows life.*

The intake of water could show severe kidney damage - any other views?

Grazyna has had him on Penicillin, but she has not been to a vet, so I'm not sure for what purpose or by whom this was prescribed. She says she gives him the daily dose but more often (so i can't figure if she is giving too much, or just dividing the dose).

he has been given corn in water, as he cannot eat by himself.

his crop was slow to empty and, today, I read that Grazyna had 'sorted out' the crop with papaya(????)

She also says should she change to baytril. I have no idea if it is safe to do that now, although Paratyphoid I believe would call for Baytril.

It is very difficult to advise without yet even being sure of the illness 

If someone who may be able to make some sense out of all this would like to post AND copy Grazyna, there may still be hope, but I feel the bird is sinking fast

John


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## TAWhatley

Grazyna,

Please e-mail [email protected] right away and give him your phone number. Fred is in NYC and can give you advice for the pigeon. Please do this quickly.

Terry


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## Reti

This bird sounds to be doing very poorly indeed.
I am thinking that brain damage from some kind of injury might be also a possibility.
I don't see the point in giving penicillin, if I would give an antibiotic in this case it would be Baytril like you suggested, just in case it is paratyphoid.
Since the kidney function seems to be impaired, I would withhold any antibiotic use. 
Since we don't have a diagnosis in this case, it might be more harmful to administer antibiotics.
Treesa advices on natural treatment which can safely be used without the risk of side effects and overdosing. They are also easy to obtain and generally not very expensive.
For CNS symptoms you can use Belladona.
For head swelling Arnica Montana.
And a good antiinflammatory is Glucosamine sulfate.
Vit B complex is also good for the nervous system.

I would start the bird on those and small frecvent feedings, preferably a thin formula.


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## Skyeking

The heavy intake of water, and green runny droppings are also symptoms of coccidiosis, this is a bacteria that grows within the bird when they are already under stress.

The bird should not be on antibiotics if there is no diagnosis, it won't do any good.

Treesa


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## TAWhatley

Grazyna has already been in touch with Fred in NYC so my post can be disregarded.

Terry


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## John_D

Trees Gray said:


> The heavy intake of water, and green runny droppings are also symptoms of coccidiosis, this is a bacteria that grows within the bird when they are already under stress.
> 
> The bird should not be on antibiotics if there is no diagnosis, it won't do any good.
> 
> Treesa


You are absolutely right, Treesa. i have been trying to discover why Grazyna has been giving the bird penicillin, without a vet's diagnosis. I have said that if the bird had PMV, then antibiotics do not affect that, and if it had Paratyphoid, penicillin would not be the medication to use anyway. Although Grazyna has been in contact wth another pigeon person (who I don't know), she seems unwilling to respond here on pigeons.com 

John


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## Pidgey

It may interest ya'll to know that I've been in email contact with Grazyna since last Friday because he posted to get him/her at that email address. I've been working to get him/her in touch with Fred since Saturday and he/she did. By and large, we're all feeling the same way and giving the same basic advice.

He/she has ruled out traumatic injury and said that the bird was looking sleepy with eyes half closed way back on Saturday. Then he/she said that the bird was watching him on Sunday. It's just impossible to say but given the message traffic and the fact that he/she has been in contact with, obviously, a lot of us through back channels, I expect that a lot turbo-charged worry is going into this bird.

If it is long term PMV, there's going to be a hard week or two of this nearly-paralyzed state, right? And that means hand feeding and watering for quite awhile, too, right? I've never gotten to see that because my vets say that the common local strain of PMV doesn't do much more than cause very watery droppings, so I'm the last one to help with something like this, but I've read a little about it. I'd think that the hardest part would be the neurosis that the rehabber would get hoping for a quick-fix, miracle cure. The sheer hopelessness of watching day-after-day without improvement takes its toll. But, sometimes you just gotta' persevere. It's probably the only chance the bird has.

Anyhow, I told him/her to get the bird to Fred if possible--I don't think they're that far apart but a little bit of NYC goes a loooooonng way, of course.


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## Skyeking

The sleepy, closed eyes is another symptom of coccidiosis.

Bellodonna for nervous system disorder, extra calcium for nerves and B complex vitamins. These things can be used together without side effects, which is a big plus in a very sick bird. Of course, the bird also needs probiotics for gut bacteria, after the antibiotics.

I would make a slurry of ground up seed, probiotics, calcium gluconate, avian vitamins and brewers yeast, and purified water. Syringe it down and let the bird rest plenty between feedings.

Treesa


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## Feefo

> Anyhow, I told him/her to get the bird to Fred if possible


Has Fred changed his approach to PMV, then? The last time I read a post from him on that subject he said he would not touch a pigeon if he suspected PMV, other than to have them euthanased. 

The high water intake, the puddles with a "worm" of poop in them and the nervous symptoms would all point to PMV.


Cynthia


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## John_D

Ah well, glad you have been involved too, Pidgey.

We've found that PMV in its neurological form tends to leave the bird in about 6 weeks, just given quiet, not too bright environment, and ensuring they get their food and water. I don't know about the internal form (I believe it affects the kidneys).

With this one, the neck twisting sounds significant, but it is one of those where we just don't know cos we can't see the patient.

John


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## Pidgey

Oh, I didn't know Fred felt that way about PMV--I was just thinking he'd know what he was doing, at least.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Fred and Grazyna have been in touch both by e-mail and by phone. Fred has offered advice but did not offer to take the bird. 

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

We have had many birds with CNS symptoms. We lost a few but a local vet did some research about 5 years ago and came up with giving the birds a combination of Baytril and Metronidazole. Our own vet saw nothing wrong with this and said it would help to try it. We gave it to several pigeons we got in and honestly they got ok. Maybe they would have anyway, but who knows?


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## pdpbison

Hmmmm...

I have a probable "PMV" Pigeon...eating well, poping well...intermittant star gazing and palsied neck-things...

Maybe I will try the Batryl-Metronidazole combo...


What was that 'wormer' which as an incidental, seemed to be such a great Immune system booster? Does anyone remember?

It might be worth thinking about maybe...for certain situations sometimes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

My, my, my, but isn't this a busy day? Here's a site that really goes into PMV and its variants:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

From what I read in the CNS section, I assume that the medications that your vet came up with are attempting to decrease the mortality of a fairly bad strain by way of providing support against the hemorrhagic necrotizing enteritis component of the CNS. 

It goes further than that, I guess. When we die, there's a lot of bacteria and other bugs living inside that just go to town rotting the body down. Apparently, the strain of CNS that you're referring to immunocompromises the bird to the point that it needs the drugs to keep the opportunistics down or they'll just eat it right up. But the bird still has to defeat the strain of PMV on its own, huh?

Boy, I'm just really lucky living where I'm at as I have never seen this!

Pidgey

P.S. Note to Phil--you posted just before I did--Levamisol is the wormer that boosts the immune system. But it really makes the birds puke so you gotta' use it carefully!


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## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey, 


Thanks...

Makes-'em-puke how soon? How soon after administration? How is it administered usually? any differences with the pukeing where the methods of administration possibly have some influence?
If one knows roughly the time-lag of adminmistration and pukeing, then of course one could try and see to it that their last feed was timed right, or, how is it with this, does the pukeing remain a possibility for the whole time they are on it?

I was thinking of course, if it is a good Immune booster, it might be handy for occasions where one has no actual remedy for some ill, like for the 'PMV'...

Whatchathink? As a conjecture anyway...?

My possible PMV Bird has nice ( fingers crossed ) big normal poops thank goodness...no signs of any necrotizeing enteritis or other unhappy mischiefs.

No sign of secondary opportunistic infections...

Scarey thoughts though...(shudder...)




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Oh, Phil, 

After all that talk about puking, I think I'm gonna' puke!

It's just like people--some will and some won't. I'll have to review what it says in the manual tonight about that. I think that it works best on an empty stomach. It also tastes bad and if you're doing a community dosing, they will avoid drinking water for a couple of days to keep from drinking it. I usually mix it in with Kaytee and pump it down them when I want to worm them.

Back to the PMV--if it ain't broke--don't fix it (on your bird, anyway)! With all that I'm reading, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the strains are almost area-specific. What works "here" on a weak strain isn't enough for over "there" on a more virulent one. And two different but equally virulent strains can attack different parts of the body forcing a different strategy to be used in treatment.

Probably the strategy for each of us to focus on would best be formulated by getting with the best vet(s) of our local areas for info. Of course, they need to be vets who are accustomed to working with rehabbers so they don't see us as "competition".

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi Pidgie, 


Thanks...good thinking there...

Oh, sorry...Lol..."Regurgitation" then maybe...might be an easier term!

Ohhhh...not 'community' Water here, each allways has their own. 

Of course the suspect 'PMV" Bird is by himself in quarenteen, and none of the others can ever see him let alone peck a fallen seed that might have a germ on it...

Have Mice here...been thinking that if they eat the odd fallen Seed with-a-germ-on-it...

I wonder if they might get their version of it?

I will be safe-trapping them more soon, but it has been a never ending battle ever since my dear Cat was no more. She caught and ate them so that one almost never saw evidence of any. 

Anyway...yea...just wondering, museing...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo

The mice are safe from contracting pigeon PMV, although there is a strain of paramyxovius tha affects them. 

My only "indoor" rescue at the moment is a very young mouse that the cat caught this morning. I have put it on a heat pad (inside a small animal container) and have given it a drop of synulox solution on a biscuit. When I am certain it can fend for itself I will relocate it to the woods where I feed the birds. I always throw down an extra handful of corn for the mice that I have relocated there.

Cynthia


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## Govinda

Can i use antibiotics like neurobin forte for pmv infected birds.
Some of my friends suggest me to use but i don't think so.
plz help me


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