# Pigeon Family Planning -- Advice, Please



## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Hello Everyone --

I have been reading here for a couple of months and must thank you for all the education and entertainment you've already provided me. I'm now in need of more personalized help. . .

Last fall, my husband and I adopted two pigeons from a local wildlife rehab center. They are both white; one a fantail, one looks like a chicken.  Anyway, we just keep them as pets, getting plenty of pleasure just keeping them and knowing they are safe and looked after. 

Now . . .

This morning, there is an egg. Now what?? 

We knew we were taking a chance when we brought these two home. The people at the rehab center couldn't sex them. Is there still hope that these are two females and this is an infertile egg? If the egg is, in fact, an infertile egg produced by one hen (i.e., not a "collaborative effort") will only the laying hen care for it? Or will they still act as a couple and take turns sitting, etc? 

I really, really do not want this to be a fertile egg because, to me, this means we will have to split up this couple or continuously take their eggs in order to control the population. Is that correct? I would love to be wrong about this, so please enlighten me. They make such a cute pair and I would hate to have to separate them. What, if any, other options do we have?

If we let this egg (or eggs if another appears) hatch, will we eventually have to separate the offspring from this couple to stop him/her from also breeding with the parent? Am I, all of a sudden, looking at 3+ pigeon coops rather than 1? 

Also, if anyone knows of additional resources for this information, please let me know. I have spent much of the morning reading around, but I find almost all info out there is geared toward racing/show pigeons and, therefore, is not focused on the pet-keeping concerns I have. 

Thank you so much. 

Jill


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The hen always lays 2 eggs. After she lays the second one just replace both with wooden or plastic eggs, which can be purchased from any of the Pigeons supply places or a craft store.
it's very important to let them complete the incubation process even if the eggs are pretend.
If you have 2 females, the other will likely lay 2 eggs as well and they will both take turns incubating the eggs.
Please provide oyster shell to ensure they have enough calcium. it should be offered daily in a separate dish form their seed. Also, do the same with red grit. Pigeons also love leafy greens and a little bit of whole grain bread.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Charis -- If I remember correctly from my reading, you have chickens, too, don't you? 

We are preparing to get 3 chick hens next month and begin out "pet chicken adventure." Could I put the baby pigeon (if, in fact, it does indeed come to pass) in with the chicken chicks? I'm thinking if they grew up together, they would accept each other and live happily ever after. What do you think?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

jillthepill said:


> Charis -- If I remember correctly from my reading, you have chickens, too, don't you?
> 
> We are preparing to get 3 chick hens next month and begin out "pet chicken adventure." Could I put the baby pigeon (if, in fact, it does indeed come to pass) in with the chicken chicks? I'm thinking if they grew up together, they would accept each other and live happily ever after. What do you think?


That wouldn't be a good idea. Baby Pigeons are very dependent on their parents for 30 days or so and chicks hatch eating on their own. Chickens can be very agressive and they can share some illnesses. All around, it wouldn't be good. I had to learn this from experience.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2009)

switching out eggs for dummies isnt all that hard to do especially when you only have one pair ...oh how I miss those days, when I only had a around 20 pairs to switch out for wooden ones


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Will I sound hopelessly naive if I say I feel bad swapping out the eggs? The more I read, the more I am coming to understand this may be a necessity, but it bothers me a bit. (I'm working on getting over it.) It seems to me, the only other alternative is to split them all up, and what kind of life would that be for them? Right? 

Why are we first having eggs now? Do they lay eggs all year? I think they do, so why is this the first time in the 6 months we've had them? Anyone know? 

So this morning the second egg appeared. If we take both eggs & replace with fake, there is no way, at this point, to know if these are fertile eggs, correct? They could still be two hens, right? It seems to me, if we take both eggs, we'll be taking eggs forever and perhaps for no reason. If we leave one to see if it is fertile, and it is, it will be too late to do anything more than let them hatch it; then we have a 3rd pigeon to accomodate. Is my thinking correct? 

If we take one egg and leave the other, do we need to replace the taken egg? Or will the one egg suffice for them?

And, assuming now that first egg was laid Saturday, it's not too late to take it, is it?

Thanks for any and all advice and thoughts. I know you all know each other much better than you know a newbie like me, but I could really use your help. Thanks.

Jill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Jill,

I certaily understand your dilemna. I don't mind swapping eggs myself, and that is not an issue, but my hens need a rest from egg laying, as they will lay all year, as long as they are coupled. 

Your birds may have been younger then six months-though they are fully grown, but at six months is when they physically mature and can begin to lay eggs, but they mature emotionally around a year of age. 

You can replace the eggs now or allow them to incubate them, but there is a chance that you still may have fertile eggs. The best time to check fertility is at 5 days of incubation.

It is up to you what to do, but I would replace the eggs with dummies and see if you get two more eggs, then you will know if you have two hens or a couple. If you have a couple you can always decide at a later date when the birds are more mature, if you want them to have babies. You can seperate them, but with only two birds, they will be lonely.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Treesa -- So replace both of these eggs with dummy eggs. If they lay another two eggs . . . how does that indicate whether we have 2 hens or not? I guess I need a map drawn. I'm sorry to be so thick about this. I just haven't had to deal with this before and feel I need to make up my mind pretty quickly here. 

I absolutely don't want to split them up. I know they need companionship, and I want them to have a happy life. If I can determine that they are two hens, though, and save myself years of fretting over eggs, I would like that.

Thanks.

Jill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If they lay another two eggs . . . how does that indicate whether we have 2 hens or not? 

*One hen will lay two eggs (the second always arrives two days later), and the second hen may lay another two eggs, or one depending on if this is the first time ever that they are laying, not trying to be confusing here  But if you have only have two eggs laid, you will know you have a couple. 

If they are both hens and you want them to remain together, then make sure they have their eggs replaced with dummy eggs so they can incubate them as long as they want to. This gives them time to refresh their calcium reserves and avoid any egg laying problems that may become an issue down the road. Just make sure they always have access to calcium grit and or oyster shell gritand daily sunshine too.*


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Ahh, okay, I see. (Thanks for the map!) 

So it sounds like where there are eggs, there will be fake eggs, regardless. If they are both hens and, therefore, their eggs are infertile, I can't just let them have their natural eggs? Because they will spoil and go icky, I assume. So, either way, I'll be taking eggs. The only difference would be it just wouldn't be as crucial to take them asap if they are infertile.

Gosh, the pull of a wee little baby pigeon is a strong one, though, isn't it. Just don't know what I would do with it besides put it in with the chickens (once everyone is weaned and on someone equal footing), and that doesn't appear to be the best idea, either. 

It's looking like we'll take both eggs. I think. Yeah, probably. Mmm-hmmm. Yep. Probably will . . .

Anyone interested in a baby white pigeon?? Probably not. Darn. 

Any other thoughts? Anything else I should know? 

I surely appreciate all your help . . .


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jillthepill said:


> Ahh, okay, I see. (Thanks for the map!)
> 
> So it sounds like where there are eggs, there will be fake eggs, regardless. If they are both hens and, therefore, their eggs are infertile, I can't just let them have their natural eggs? Because they will spoil and go icky, I assume. So, either way, I'll be taking eggs. The only difference would be it just wouldn't be as crucial to take them asap if they are infertile.
> 
> ...


putting a weaned baby pigeon in with chickens is a death sentence,,,Don't do it. The embryo in an egg does not start forming untill it gets heat, and even with 7 days of heat it still is just a dot and veining in the egg, so don't feel bad, there is not a whole squab in the egg.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> putting a weaned baby pigeon in with chickens is a death sentence,,,Don't do it.


Even if the chickens are babies as well? We'll be getting day-old chicks in mid-April. I was hoping that once the baby pigeon is weaned (early May)and the chicks are old enough to go in their outdoor coop (mid June), they could live in peace and harmony . . . and teach the world to sing. 

No?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

NO! They don't mix well. When I had my chickens sleeping in my garage with they Pigeons, the chickens were always getting sick because they would eat the Pigeons poop. Since I have given the chickens their own house, they are much healthier.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jillthepill said:


> Even if the chickens are babies as well? We'll be getting day-old chicks in mid-April. I was hoping that once the baby pigeon is weaned (early May)and the chicks are old enough to go in their outdoor coop (mid June), they could leave in peace and harmony . . . and teach the world to sing.
> 
> No?


no as in NO!, chickens like to eat bugs and even will go after frogs and mice or things that move, they would or could peck a smaller bird to death, not to mention cross contamination issues with bacteria and viruses.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Okay, gotcha. But, darn it, it seemed like a lovely idea. 

I am feeling better about replacing the eggs, though. So thanks for the "therapy." 

Suddenly, this bird keeping got so much more complicated overnight!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jillthepill said:


> Okay, gotcha. But, darn it, it seemed like a lovely idea.
> 
> I am feeling better about replacing the eggs, though. So thanks for the "therapy."
> 
> Suddenly, this bird keeping got so much more complicated overnight!


always best to do your homework BEFORE the fact.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

jillthepill said:


> Any other thoughts? Anything else I should know?


When a fertile egg is laid there is no life...not yet, only when incubation starts is when cell division begins, it's not like the conception of human life.

You can allow them to lay on their own eggs, but you take the chance of the egg cracking or breaking and having egg yolk around, and you can boil the egg first too, and then return it when it is cold, but it will eventually start smelling. It's just much easier using plastic or wooden eggs.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> always best to do your homework BEFORE the fact.


Agreed, but we can only do our best as we know it at the time.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jillthepill said:


> Agreed, but we can only do our best as we know it at the time.


well it does'nt have to be complicated, we as humans only make it that way by putting the cart before the horse. but it's not the end of the world.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> well it does'nt have to be complicated, we as humans only make it that way by putting the cart before the horse. but it's not the end of the world.


Well Said.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

hey jill! i was just as dense, and sappy  about the egg-pulling thing. i have a rescued racer boy, and a rescued feral girl. freya laid four clutches of two eggs each, and as i thought trooper couldn't 'do the deed' because of how mangled his legs were, i thought we were safe, the eggs were laid, but not fertilized, and that i would never have to commit pigeon 'pregnancy termination'. 

the grossest thing i read was that the eggs can EXPLODE. which completely freaked me out - can you imagine cleaning up a rotten exploded egg??? eeeeeuuuuuuw!!!! 

but....naive pij lover that i am, i was sure we were in the clear. and then they got me. see my albums. yeppers, two little ones. i was completely floored, and embarrassed, as i'm ALL about the whole rescue thing, and how could i now be a 'backyard breeder'??? how irresponsible of me!!!!! 

well, to quote my pigeon pal elizabeth - 'never underestimate the power of the sperm.' and from this point on, i will steel myself for the chucking of the real eggs, and replacing with fake. 

yes, yes, the wee ones are excruciatingly cute, well NOW they are anyway, at three weeks, but chicks pretty much hop out of the egg ready to roll, pigeons are fed by mom and dad, and are sooooo helpless, and i would figure by the time they were 30 days plus old, and ready to be 'on their own', the chickens might not take too well to them, or the pigeons to them. and i'm sure in a pij vs. chicken duel, the chicken will win. i'm raising my baby pigeons with lots of dog exposure, and lots of parrot exposure, and i think if you had HOUSE chickens, and HOUSE pigeons it would be okay, but having them be more 'feral' living out in a coop would be dangerous for the pigeons....

i feel for you, i really do, but if you rescued them, you KNOW how many are out there that need homes. i feel like my 'rescuer' card is gonna be repo'd, but i really did think we were safe. speaking from experience, it's better to be safe than sorry. go to the nearest craft store, buy some teeny eggs, and do it. you see the first egg, wait til the next one shows up, and then do the ole switcheroo.

i'll feel bad right along with you every month. so will just about every other person on here! we're not alone!


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Trees Gray said:


> When a fertile egg is laid there is no life...not yet, only when incubation starts is when cell division begins, it's not like the conception of human life.


That makes me feel a lot better. Thanks.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

lizz said:


> i'll feel bad right along with you every month. so will just about every other person on here! we're not alone!


Hi Lizz --

Nice to "talk" to you as I was reading about your adventures in oooops babies yesterday. Your babies are adorable and I love that pic at the bottom of your posts. 

Thanks for understanding my sentiments on this. I guess I've just needed to chew on this for a bit. But I have come to understand that unless I take these eggs every month, I cannot give these pigeons a happy and fulfilling life. And I will never be able to rescue any other pigeons. And I will just be adding to the already over-populated pigeon world. I just needed to hear it from some others and turn it over in my mind for a while. 

Thanks, everyone, for helping us with this. I'm off to Michael's for some wooden eggs. (I don't have to paint them white or anything, do I?)

Jill


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Jill,

I've just had to swap four eggs this week for dummies, two from a proper pair and two from a pair of hens. I still haven't had the heart to throw the real eggs away, it's not easy to start with, but has to be.

The two hens are on their second batch of laying. The first time they both laid eggs, (that was a surprise as I had thought one was a male).
They didn't bother sitting on the first ones even though I put dummies there. This time only one of the hens has laid eggs, and they are both taking turns sitting on the dummies as regular as clockwork as if they were a couple. So you can just never tell by behaviour, so it is best to remove all eggs to be sure.

Good luck,

Janet


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

My pair are working together so sweetly over these eggs, too. They take turns and appear to be sitting so proudly upon those eggs. 

I found some eggs at the craft store. I had to scour the store and finally found some plastic ones. What craft store, a month before Easter, wouldn't have eggs? I was quite relieved to finally find some suitable ones. For a while, I was contemplating the neon-colored plastic ones . . . think they'd have noticed??? 

We're going to make the swap with my husband gets home. I don't know what to do with the real eggs.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

my first thought, when i saw the very first two, was to mix them up in the dogs' food. yeeeeeah. and then my stomach did a triple axle into a killer sit spin, and i just tossed them. 

if i could STAND to do something with them, i would----but being the big softie that i am, i just couldn't! even just throwing them away feels kinda sad to me...

but now, that i just got my king pigeon from san francisco? uh-uh.... no more babies. no matter what. if i hadn't been a big dumb, and been more militant, i would've had possible room for yet more kings. which trust me, i would be getting. king pigeons rule. [ the white one in the photos is ciel, my new one!!!] 

nona out in new york told me it's just their simple little life, it's how they do things. i wish i could either stop them from laying and being so hopeful, or just let them do their thing, but uhm...., i'm pretty much living in a' LOFT' myself right now----any more pigeons, and i'm pretty sure they'd commit me.....!!!! 

you know you're doing the right thing, and you rock for it!!!! smooch your girls for me, and the rest of my flock!!!!


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Well, the deed is done. I had to give myself quite the peptalk again, but I did it. They seemed to be none the wiser. She went right back on as soon as we closed the coop. I found that truly bitter sweet. 

I couldn't do anything with the eggs than throw them away. 

So I just leave these dummy eggs in there until they stop sitting on them? 

Lizz -- When I was a kid, my parents got very into birds, finches. They had over 30 of them once . . . devoted an entire room to them, etc. I never understood that. I used to look at them and the "bird people" from whom they would get birds and think they were all a bit bent. Then I got a budgie 2 years ago; then she needed a mate. Then we rescued and hand-raised a mourning dove whom we still have because she imprinted on our dog somehow (love her!); then we hand-raised an injured baby grackle and did release him (kept him away from Ddog!), and then along came these 2 pigeons. I get it now. I feel myself slip-sliding down a very slippery slope here . . . and I kinda like it! LOL 

Did I mention we're getting baby chickens next month?? 

I'll have to read up more on your king pigeons. I'm not familiar with them, but they sure are beautiful!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, just leave the eggs until they are no longer interested in brooding.

I am always throwing away eggs and replacing them, and I used to feel bad about the birds lives not being "unfullfilled"-it is their unending desire to hatch..hatch...hatch , BUT I KNOW it would be irresponsible for me to allow them to hatch babies,soon 40 birds would turn into 100 then 300.........there would be issues of overcrowding, fighting...the birds would be misserable, and so would I. This is the BEST sollution for us.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Gotcha, thanks Treesa.


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## bluebirdsnfur (Jan 20, 2009)

*Hi Jill and welcome. Liz is right . . . ya gotta check out out the California Kings. I too recently adopted two (Anthony & KariJo) and they are BIG and BEAUTIFUL. I call them my little pickens because they kinda do remind me of little chickens  You can check out the King-care-A-Van thread in the Adption forum and follow its progress. If you're thinkin you have room for one or two more birds, consider the Kings. Elizabeth (MickaCoo), KariJo, Diane, Jenn, Liz and I guarantee you won't be sorry.*


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I also felt sad initally taking the birds eggs. However, raising babies takes a lot of energy and effort and puts a stress on your birds. Think about how many life options you are unable to offer your dog or cat or other pets. Generally, they are not allowed to choose a mate, defend a territory, etc.

Pigeons really enjoy the other phases of the reproductive cycle: courtship, nest building, and setting eggs. Without producing additional birds or stressing your pets, you can provide them the opportunity to enjoy those activities.

When you swap out eggs, it helps if you pre-warm them (hold them against your body for about 5 minutes). I think it's better if the birds don't actually see you make the swap. One way is to briefly remove the setting bird and make the switch. My preference is to palm the warmed dummy eggs, slip my hand (palm down) under the bird (prepare for vocalizations, pecking, and wing wacking), place the dummies and pick up the real eggs, then smoothly remove your hand. This usually only takes a few seconds. I usually offer some treat seed (hemp, safflower, raw peanut pieces) as a peace offering. 

You may find that one bird is less stressed by this than the other, so try to make the switch on their shift. (Males generally set during mid-day, females the rest of the time.)

This time of year, I like to save the real eggs and color them for an adorable Easter egg display!


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

Somehow I think I'm gonna like it here!  Although, methinks you could all be very bad influences on me . . . feeding a budding addiction and all. Those kings are really captivating. And I can't seem to get those nun pigeons out of my head since first seeing them the other day. Oy! 

I'm off to find that thread. Thanks, Debbie.


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## jillthepill (Mar 16, 2009)

TerriB said:


> This time of year, I like to save the real eggs and color them for an adorable Easter egg display!


LOL, I'm glad you said this, Terri, because the idea crossed my mind and I thought maybe people would think I was weird. When the time came, I couldn't quite do it, though. Maybe next time. 

I have saved our mourning dove's eggs, though, because I know they are infertile (she's a spinster), blown them out, and intend to paint them up at Easter. Glad to know there are other minds that work this way. 

And thanks for the practical guide to swapping the eggs. I hadn't thought about pre-warming them. I wish I had, though, because when I took the real eggs, I was struck by how toasty warm they were. I won't be worrying out those little pidgie feet on cold nights anymore! 

You're right about all pets' lives being limited in order to make them "keepable." We all do what we can to provide them happy lives, and, let's face it, without many of us, these little creatures would have no lives at all. 

Our Ddog DOES get to defend territory, though. Every month he saves us from the evil encroachment of . . . the meter reader. He is absolutely convinced that, if not for his barking and snarling tirade, something very, very bad would happen to us all.  It drives my husband nuts that I let him bark at him that way, but I think it makes Ddog feel important and fulfilled. He walks around all puffed up and tough for the rest of the day . . . until he's emasculated by having to ignore the mourning dove that is often lying on his bed. Poor guy. He's a good egg.


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## wovenwoman (Jul 2, 2003)

I have a pair of dove hens, and they both lay eggs. I take two eggs out, and they take turns on the two left just like a regular couple. For my unreleasable mated house birds I swap the eggs as soon as they are laid, and then its not so bad. A good plastic egg helps the parents feel like they are doing a good job, but they dont have the stress of raising the young time after time. Its better for your birds.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

jillthepill said:


> ...feeding a budding addiction...


Agreed!!!



jillthepill said:


> ...Our Ddog DOES get to defend territory, though. Every month he saves us from the evil encroachment of . . . the meter reader...


LOL!!! Yep, every dog is happiest with a job.


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