# Hubby brought home a baby pigeon.



## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Lastnight my hubby called me on his way home from work and told me he was bringing home a baby bird. During work (he's a roofer) they were removing an air conditioning unit from a roof and the nest was under it. Once they lifted and moved the unit they realized they had 'stepped' on or broke apart the nest. 2 other babies were dead only the one was alive and ok. 

I'm keeping him warm on a heating pad covered with a bath towel and lined with paper towels to make it more nest-like. The handfeeding aspect is a little different than handfeeding my cockatiels. Getting him to hold still and opening his mouth was the most difficult part. But I'm getting the hang of it.

Also he's extremely active and chirping quite often. Is that normal? I'm worried I'm not feeding him enough but his crop is definitely not empty. I'd say it's just over half full. 

This little one is young. Still covered in yellow down and his eye are not fully open. I'll attach a pic.. Any idea how old he is? 

Any other tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ok I just found a pic of a 4 day old pigeon that looks similar in age the this little guy and his crop was quite full. So I guess I answered my own question. That will teach me for not searching first.  So I'm not feeding him enough at one time and that's why he's still chirping. Once his/her crop empties I'll feed him again and increase the amount.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are you feeding him something like Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula, mixed a tad on the thin side (instructions for that in the package)? That does work with pigeons although they usually grow a little more slowly in the beginning.

The behavior sounds pretty normal.

Pidgey


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Thanks.. Good to know he's behaving normally. 

Yup the Kaytee is what I'm feeding him. I don't have the package though for mixing instructions. The lady at the pet store just gave me a baggy full and told me to take a small amount and mix it thin but no too runny. Kind of a pea soup consistancy. 

Actually I have another question.. During feeding he will refuse to take anymore even though his crop is nowhere near full. I usually give him a minute to rest and try again sometimes he will resume feeding and sometimes not. It just worries me because I don't want to aspirate him, but I don't want him to starve either. Would it be ok to just feed him small meals more frequently? Or should keep trying until his crop is full?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Raine, welcome to the forum and many thanks to you and your husband for saving this little one.

We feed babies this size Kaytee Exact with about 1/2 tsp of plain yogurt or Benebac powder mixed in the formula. We usually mix it thinner than directions call for. Make sure it is mixed well because it has a tendency to swell until well mixed. He would need to be fed about 10 - 15 cc of formula about every 3 hours. Of course, make sure his crop has emptied. If you have problems with crop emptying try about 5 cc lukewarm water for one of the feedings. I have found though that the yogurt helps prevent crop emptying. He will need to be kept on the heating pad until feathers come in. We usually use a margarine sized container lined with tissue or pieces of paper towel. Also, we usually lay 1 - 2 tissues on top of them to help keep them warm.

There are many ways to feed these babies. One of our members, pdpbison (Phil) uses a nipple with good results so you can check out the many posts to find alternative ways. We've just stuck with our method over the years and have had good results.

I am envious - well, sorta.  We've had so many this summer I've about reached my quota. They are so precious at that age.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Awesome thank you for the info! And thanks for the welcome! 

10-15 cc's wow I've definitely been underfeeding him then.  He usually loses interest after 4-5 cc's. But then within 10 minutes he chirping for more. It's like he's sleepy and wants a quick nap. I guess I'll try to keep him awake and get more formula into him.

I'm pretty sure I have some margarine containers. So I'll set him up in one with some paper towels. 

As for feeding technique.. It's a learning process with him. He prefers to nibble at the syringe rather than open his mouth on his own. So I was advised by wildlife rescue to tube feed him. But I'd rather not do that if I can help it. So I've been gently opening his mouth and inserting the syringe with him facing me from the left side of his beak to the right being sure that I'm past his tongue and putting small amounts of formula in at a time and letting him swallow. Then he peeps for more and I repeat the procedure. It's a slow process but I don't mind. I'm used to my cockatiels that eat non stop until the syringe is empty. LOL


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and thank you for taking in this little one.

You have already gotten information from our expert baby pigeon rehabbers, so I won't go there.

Just wanted to mention, looking at the picture, please make sure the baby has traction under him and is able to keep its legs well folded underneath him. If his legs come out from under him, he will develop splay legs.

You can put him in a cereal bowl lined in paper towels, one that fits snug but not too tight, this will help enable him to keep his feet and legs under him. A rough towel or rubbermaid kitchen cabinet liner also works to keep the traction.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Trees Gray, I moved him into a small margarine container lined with paper towels. I layed him in there and positioned the paper towels so that it's snug around him. The problem is he's been moving all over the place and climbing the paper towels. 

I actually read here about using the baby bottle nipple. I'm going to try that at his next feeding. 

Also I'm a bit worried about him. He's still very active and peeping for food etc. But I'm hearing the odd clicking sound, not everytime he breaths just here and there.  God..I truly hope that I did not aspirate him.  

Are there any other reasons why I could be hearing a clicking sound? Hubby said they did not see any adult birds up on the roof all day. So it possible that he just got chilled?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Welcome Raine, and thanks for helping this baby.

I've never had to feed a baby myself, and I too, would be a little apprehensive about tube feeding, though many of our member swear by it. It's supposed to be very fast and easy once you get the hang of it.

Myself, I would probably try one of the other various methods that members have used with success. I think the reason that it's been such tough going and such a slow process feeding this little guy is because pigeons don't "gape" and have the parents place the food in their mouth. Pigeons babies put their beaks *into* their parents mouths to get their food.

Here is a link that will show you or lead you to other links to show you the Balloon Method and the Baggie method...just click on the link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682


And here is a link to a post showing Member Pdpbison's (Phil's) method of using a nipple made for human babies....he puts the formula in the nipple and the birds "digs in" to the nipple to eat the food:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=141826&postcount=1

As far as the clicking sound, I'm not sure whether that is a problem or not. I'd say if the bird is acting fine otherwise, then it may not be a problem....but, I'm sure others with more experience will be along to advise you on this.

Sorry I cannot be more helpful, but hopefully these links will give you some ideas for easier feeding.

Good luck and thanks again for helping this baby....thanks to Hubby too for being kind enough to rescue him.

Linda


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's a pretty small baby to be tube-feeding. I don't tube-feed anything that small at all--that's "let 'em suck it up on their own" country, as far as I'm concerned unless you've got the very-specialized stuff to do it with.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Raine said:


> Also I'm a bit worried about him. He's still very active and peeping for food etc. But I'm hearing the odd clicking sound, not everytime he breaths just here and there.  God..I truly hope that I did not aspirate him.
> 
> Are there any other reasons why I could be hearing a clicking sound? Hubby said they did not see any adult birds up on the roof all day. So it possible that he just got chilled?



We have another member who raised babies from the egg that also had the clicking sound, let me go find the thread:

Here it is, maybe this will help:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16767


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Another possibility is simply that air has gotten into the crop during what is usually a pretty frenzied feeding session no matter which feeding method you use. If it's just excess air, it will self resolve.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine, 


This is sure one little cutie...!


Well, for one thing, it is extremely important that you keep this Baby "warm", and this means around 100 degrees, so that HE is that temperature. 

If he starts panting, then it is too warm for him.

The impirical, is for what he is laying on to feel a little warmer than your wrist's underside, if you press it against the cloth he will be on, and keep it there for say 20 seconds or something.


I feed them from the 'hollow' side of a regular soft people-baby-bottle Nipple...

Just the Nipple, no 'Bottle'...

Their normal mode of eating is to insert their Beak into the throat of their parent...and the holow of the Nipple works well to provide a familiar, tactiley re-assureing, and easy method then...for them, and you.

For smaller Babys, I just use the 5/8ths of an inch or so cut-off 'end' of a Nipple, so it suits their Beak better...and of course one has to refill it as they gobble the contents from it.


If he becomes chilled, his system can slow and the food in his Crop can ferment from the delay, and make serious problems.


I can send you a pretty long sort of essay on Baby matters if you like, in the regular e-mail. Just write to me at 

[email protected]


Food temp needs to be fairly close but slightly less than body temp...or, around 100 degrees thereabouts...if the formula feels the 'same' as the underside of your wrist, then it is right...meaning, it will feel like no temperature at all.

Absolutely do not use a microwave to warm food for him.

Use a soucepan with some water in it,. warm the Water on the Stove, warm the little bowl of formula in the Warm Water.

Refridgerate made-up formula between uses, or better yet, freeze between uses.

Make new every day if refrigerated, or make new every three days if freezing between uses.


Your description suggests that he does not like the food you are offering...and or does not like it's temperature or consistancy.

Most Pigeon Babys are fairly easy to please...so, if they are not eager, something is pretty far off.

Otherwise, they will certainly be assertive and enthusiastic, and will wish to be stuffed at each mealtime...then to nap.

Most Pigeon Babys will keep asking to be fed, even if you just stuffed them. So, one just says to them, "You are stuffed now...time for sleep!"

And, either let them nap foir a while in 'Hand Nest', or in the front of your shirt next to your stomach, or back in their 'Peeper Warm House' Nest you have made for them.


Lol...

His little actual 'Nest' should be shallow so he can poop over the edge of it.

If he is not able to poop over the side of his Nest, he will be frustrated.

So..

Take a cardboard box that is about say 11 or 12 inches wide and about that much deep, and set it on it's side, so the flaps face 'out'. A box about one foot 'square' I mean.

Put an electric Heating pad in it...and set a small white Towell on the heating pad.

On that, set your shallow pan or cake pan or little tray or something having no more than an inch high sides...

Line that with some soft Tee-Shirt material or similar cloth, but not too deeply, just enough for some softness.

The Baby goes into this 'nest'...

Adjust the Heating pad setting, and or add another towell on it, so that when you press the underside of your wrist against the actual center of the 'Nest' itself then, it will feel just slightly 'warm'...keep your wrist pressed against it for 20 seconds or so to be sure.

Make sure the Heating pad has been on at it's present setting for ten minutes or so to test this. If you need to make any adjustments, then let them stabalize before testing.

The Box on it's side, with this arrangement in it, then is situated on a small Table or desk or something a couple feet square or more...and more is fine, too...but lay down a large towell as a table cloth first, then set up the 'Warm House' on it so there is plenty of room in front of it. This wil be his front yard or Lawn area.


On the open side, the bottom flap of cardboard should be flat against the tablecloth, and the Heating Pad small towell can extend over this...and have the side flaps slightly in, and the top flap then rests on them...over this 'Cave' entrance then, drape some thin cloth from the top, leaving an inch or so gap at the bottom if you like.


This then keeps him warm, and when you wish to feed him, you just reach in and bring out the 'nest' part with him in it.

As he grows, he will come trundleing out at feed times, and he will go back in on his own after feeding...or as he likes.

As he gets older he will come out and lay around on the 'Lawn', on the towell area in front of his House.

There is no need to restrain a Baby Pigeon, aside from provideing them with this arrangement. They will not go anywhere, but they do need somewhere which for them, makes 'sense' to stay 'in'...and has some amenities to enjoy.

This fits the bill for them.

For now, I would add a few drops of Raw Apple cider Vinegar to his formula, or plain cider Vinegar if that is all you have handy.

He may be starting to get some yeast or Candida problems from prior chill episodes, which are slowing his Crop...so, rather than wait, start that now...and make sure his formula and HIM, are rightly warm...

Offer him body temp Water also between meals, or any time his Crop is getting 'firm' instead of squishy.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Thanks all. No no I didn't tube feed him I was just using a feeding syringe and opening his mouth. He hated it.. so I started using the baby bottle nipple last night and it's sooo much easier. I no longer have to fight to feed him, I just direct his beak into the nipple and he gobbles it up.  The nipple I'm using is a small one off of a baby bottle for kittens. 

Only thing I've noticed with this method is that he's only taking 1-2 cc's at a time and then goes to sleep. Usually all I have to do is touch his beak to initiate a feeding response.. But when he's done he's done and just turns his head to the side, peeps and goes back to sleep. So every hour and a half to two hours he needs to be fed again. His crop is fairly full after a feeding but he does have some air in there now. I tried to burp him gently and I did get some out. But I think the air is making him feel fuller than he actually is. 

Also his crop is soft and squishy, not firm. No problems emptying so far other than the air trapped in there. I do warm the formula to my wrist temp and make it runny. Maybe not runny enough? What thickness should it be for his age? As for the heating pad it's keeping him warm to the touch. 

Thanks for the info on the 'nest'. I lined the container with paper towels and made a little pocket for him to lay in. I thought it needed to litterally be 'nest like'.  I'll get on that today and make him something different. But it needs to be secure not because of him but my dogs. I have 2 Saint Bernards. One in particular is a little too interested in him. Right now I have the heating pad and his 'nest' on the bottom of a smallish bird cage with the top on it so no nosey doggy noses can get near him. Even placing the cage on the kitchen counter my dogs can reach, heck they can reach on top of the fridge. So his 'home' needs to be secure and portable would be nice since I do move him upstairs or downstairs with me. As he grows and needs more room I was just going to get a larger bird cage or even one of those large rectangular rabbit cages with the plastic bottom. If we decide to keep him then we will built him a large flight type cage. 

Ok maybe I'm a tad overprotective.. LOL I'm just so attached to him already.  

Phil I'm emailing you now for the baby info. Thanks. 

Thanks all for the help and info. I'm sure I'll be posting tons more questions.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Phil that was me that emailed you. I'm not sure why you didn't see any text. Maybe the font I used? I emailed you back using a normal font. I was hoping you could send me the baby info.  

Just a little update.. I used a thermometer to test the temp of the formula and it was in fact too cool. I upped the temp using a bowl of hot water and he just finished eating close to 6 cc's. That's the first time I've got him to eat that much at once. I'm definitely relieved. 

Before feeding I also managed to burp most of the air out of him. Since he was empty food wise it I didn't have to worry about pushing any food up. I'll just have to burp him before each feeding. He had a fair amount of air in there. Is that normal? I never really had that problem too much with my cockatiels.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Raine said:


> Phil that was me that emailed you. I'm not sure why you didn't see any text. Maybe the font I used? I emailed you back using a normal font. I was hoping you could send me the baby info.



Hi Raine, 


Yahhhhh, I sent off the info to you...it is a little long and redundant in places...but heed it all in every way, and you and your Peeper will be happy...



> Just a little update.. I used a thermometer to test the temp of the formula and it was in fact too cool. I upped the temp using a bowl of hot water and he just finished eating close to 6 cc's. That's the first time I've got him to eat that much at once. I'm definitely relieved.


Yup...if they do not like the chow, if the chow is not right temerature wise, and some times taste-wise, they may eat a little, then turn away in discouragement...



> Before feeding I also managed to burp most of the air out of him. Since he was empty food wise it I didn't have to worry about pushing any food up. I'll just have to burp him before each feeding. He had a fair amount of air in there. Is that normal? I never really had that problem too much with my cockatiels.



Hmmmm, this is not normal, and concerns me a little bit...

I think what I would do, if confronted with this 'air' Crop thing, is to mix up a Gallon of ACV-Water, and for him, to the tune of Two Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of good quality Water...

And use 'that' both for his formula-mixing, and his drinking water, for the next four or five days, and see what goes on from there...

He may have the beginnings of a Candida or Yeast infestation, either from having got chilled at some point previous, where his Crop process and digestion was slowed, or from the KT in combination with that, if he has not been warm enough at any point since your getting him.

The ACV-Water should take care of it, if that is the cause of this 'Air'...and I would start now, and not wait.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Raine said:


> Phil that was me that emailed you. I'm not sure why you didn't see any text. Maybe the font I used? I emailed you back using a normal font. I was hoping you could send me the baby info.



Hi Raine, 

Your message was completely blank, containing no text at all.

So...I dunno..! Lol...


But I sent off the info to you...it is a little long and redundant in places...but heed it all in every way, and you and your Peeper will be happy...



> Just a little update.. I used a thermometer to test the temp of the formula and it was in fact too cool. I upped the temp using a bowl of hot water and he just finished eating close to 6 cc's. That's the first time I've got him to eat that much at once. I'm definitely relieved.


Yes...if they do not like the chow, if the chow is not right temerature wise, and some times taste-wise, they may eat a little, then turn away in discouragement...if it is far enough off, the baby Pigoen will refuse to eat at all, and things can just go worse form there as people try and force them and so on.



> Before feeding I also managed to burp most of the air out of him. Since he was empty food wise it I didn't have to worry about pushing any food up. I'll just have to burp him before each feeding. He had a fair amount of air in there. Is that normal? I never really had that problem too much with my cockatiels.



Hmmmm, this is not normal, and concerns me a little bit...

I think what I would do, if confronted with this 'air' Crop thing, is to mix up a Gallon of ACV-Water, and for him, to the tune of Two Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of good quality Water...

And use 'that' both for his formula-mixing, and his drinking water, for the next four or five days, and see what goes on from there...

When you offer dinking Water, it needs to be 'tepid' also...

He may have the beginnings of a Candida or Yeast infestation, either from having got chilled at some point previous, where his Crop process and digestion was slowed, or from the KT in combination with that, if he has not been warm enough at any point since your getting him.

The ACV-Water should take care of it, if that is the cause of this 'Air'...and I would start now, and not wait.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Thank you for the info. Greatly appreciated.  

Ahh.. yeast. Great.  I don't have any ACV here. I'll go today and get some. Could I use regular vinegar in the meantime or is that a no no? 

He seems to be filling up with air as he eating.. so yeast never crossed my mind. Poor little guy.  I thought it was because of the nipple since he didn't seem to fill with air when I used the syringe. Probably just coincidence. His crop is still emptying at a normal rate also. 

The day hubby found him he was without his mom to keep him warm all day. He was definitely chilled when got home with him.

Another thing.. his poops are semi-formed but there is a fair bit of clear water accompanying them now. I do have some probiotics (yogurt culture stuff) Would that maybe help with that? 

Ok so mixing for the ACV is 1 or 2 tablespoons per gallon? And I need to use that mix his formula. I haven't been giving him water to drink between meals but will start doing that.

Wow this little guy is stressing me out. LOL


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, regular ACV will do until you can get the health food store kind. You can just put a tiny drop in the formula.

Yes, a little yoghurt made from culture, or kefir is fine. I have used homemade kefir it on my birds, and their poops are solid in no time.

If the bird is getting formula mixed with water, he does not need any water on the side. If he is eating seed, then yes he does.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Since adding the ACV, the probiotics and increasing the temp of the formula he's been eating between 8-10cc's every 3 hours. Depending on how much air is in his crop that I can't get out.  I have to burp him after each nipple full.. so I do think he is swallowing air. He's quite frenzied at feeding time. I'm not really sure how to remedy that.. Any ideas?

Yet another question..  I have been keeping the heating pad on low-ish and to me it just felt warm. I found my thermometer today and if it's accurate it's at about 101 degrees. He's not sweaty or panting.. But I'm wondering if that's too warm? 

It also appears that his pin feathers are going to be coming in soon. I can see black specs.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Raine said:


> Since adding the ACV, the probiotics and increasing the temp of the formula he's been eating between 8-10cc's every 3 hours. Depending on how much air is in his crop that I can't get out.  I have to burp him after each nipple full.. so I do think he is swallowing air. He's quite frenzied at feeding time. I'm not really sure how to remedy that.. Any ideas?



Hi Raine, 



He will eat even more, and be even more assetive and eager as he keeps growing...and once he can really 'push' with those Legs...

So, you have 'the Tiger by the Tail' now...!

Maybe he is just swalling Air somehow...but whether this is it or not, the ACV-Water will be good for him...and if the 'air' was from gasses of Yeasts or Candida staring in, then the ACV-Water should settle those matters nicely.

Still go ahead and mix up a definite batch, Just buy one of those Gallon jugs of water at 7-11 or something, and add three Tablespoons of the raw ACV ( "Bragg" being the brand of choice, found at many Groceries in their Health Food sections, or any Health Food Store...) and use this for mixing his Formula...and for in-betwwen-times if offering Water.

If his Crop starts feeling firm or like there is a kind of semi-firm 'slug' in it, then offer ( must be "tepid!") Water...

His Crop should feel soft and mushy...and here anyway in this more arid clime, their systems will tend to draw off the formula-water from their Crops between meals, so that additional plain drinks of water are needed...



Anyway, he is much happeir now, and he is HUNGRY since he has so much growing to do...he will be this way from now on for the nect several weeks...so, his 'frienzy' is a sign of a normal, happy, enthisiastic, growing Peeper...

You are doing well...!






> Yet another question..  I have been keeping the heating pad on low-ish and to me it just felt warm. I found my thermometer today and if it's accurate it's at about 101 degrees. He's not sweaty or panting.. But I'm wondering if that's too warm?



101 degrees sounds fine to me, and should be about right...along with no drafts of course...

Their parents body temp is around 105 I believe, so when sitting on him with their under-feathers parted somewhat, he'd be around 101 to 103ish I suppose...so '101' should be very nice indeed...ideal even...



> It also appears that his pin feathers are going to be coming in soon. I can see black specs.


Yup, he is on his way to being a 'Quill Baby'...!


Isn't he just a joy?


Lol...

Such wonderful wacky little Creatues...

Let him nap in our hand now and then if you are not already, just let him nestle in your palm and fold your fingers softly over him and he will nap...you can even have your 'Hand Nest' against your stomach, inside your shirt, as you sit and watch tee-vee or read or do internet stuff...and he will like that very much.

Normally there is mom or dad sitting on them, and normally there is a sibling against him also...and I think they miss it if no one is actually 'there' warming them, or being with them in real tactile ways...being right against them, so 'Hand Nest' works out pretty good that way, as does Hand Nest against one's own naked stomach under one's shirt...and is easy to do if one can be at some calm occupation where one hand can be used for him, and the other hand free...

Makes it hard to type though...

Good going..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Thanks again. 

The AVC that I got was from the grocery store, I couldn't find any 'raw ACV'. Is the grocery store stuff still effective? 

I'm finding now that he wants to keep eating even though his crop is full. So he's definitely feeling better.. or I'm finally doing everything right.  

The probiotics have also helped with his poops, I think. Since they are not so watery now. 

Good to know 101 is good. And yup no drafts. I keep his 'home' covered with a bath towel and the 'nest' is covered with a paper towel. 

He's still so tiny but he has grown quite a bit. Here's a couple new pics.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

And one more pic..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raines, 


Use some old Tee-Shirt material, soft Cotton...rather than paper towells...for his Nest proper...

It will be much more comfortable for him, and he will be able to grip it better with his feet, which is important for him.

He looks beautiful...!

Quite contented and happy...!


They always want to be fed more at feeding sessions, even when they are full...so one just has to say, "Oh...it is sleepy time now...time for sleep..." and do a little Hand Nest, and they will just doze off and forget about eating for a while...

They might still do some tentative nuzzles or peeps, but they figure it out of course that it is time now for something else...


Nice pictures!


He still has his little 'Egg Tooth' on the end of his Beak there...which is what they use to press against the inside of the Egg shell when systematically working the shell to fracure it to be able to finally push and open it to get out...

If the Vinegar is real ACV, even if cooked and filtered and not 'raw', it will still be effective chemically, but the ideal is the raw kind since it is still living...and has additional properties and benifits over the processed kind.

Too, Grocery Stores sell phoney, artificially colored 'White Vinegar' that seems to be Apple Cider Vinegar and is not...so, just stop at some Health Food Store when you get the chance and get the real one..."Bragg" is the brand of choice...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Braggs ACV

http://www.amenhealth.com/apcidvin.html


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The pics of him are so cute. He is such a darling and I see he starts opening his eyes.

Reti


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

He's so cute. I'm glad things are going smoothly for you, thanks for taking care of him.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

I had a bit of a scare lastnight. His crop wasn't emptying. It appeared to have about 5-6 cc's approximately left in there after 3 hours. The crop felt normal soft and squishy, it just wouldn't empty. It definitely was not air this time. After 6 hours it still was not empty, so I gave him 2cc's of ACV water and massaged the crop for a bit and he was completely empty this morning. What a relief. 

So this morning I just gave him a small meal of 5cc's and made the formula a little bit more watery. I'm still waiting to see if it's gone by next feeding. *knock on wood* 

Just when you think your out of the woods..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine,


Yea, they will do this, and it is no big deal.

Now, if you are JUST feeding 'KT' then their system is not getting to process any roughage or variety.


I always mix the 'powder' of whatever brand, with fresh groung Seeds and or small whole Seeds and other things...Nutrical, Fruit syrups, fresh ground dried Berries, some Canary Grit and Sea weed and so on...


In Nature, their parents KEEP them 'stuffed' constantly...the Baby's Crop never gets empty and the poops just keep comeing 12/7 of course.


The use of powder-water only can make a kind of odd slippery resistant 'slug' in their Crop which when it gives off a certain amount of Water, can sort of stay there without passing as well...so your offering more Water and massaging it a little was the right thing to do I'd say.

In Nature their parents are feeding them semi-hydrated small Seeds, bits of Greens, and Water, in a soupy/sloshy mix...and they keep the Baby's Crop topped off so the Baby is always stuffed to the gills...

Such wild Babys have Crops so continuously full, their Crop looks like one third or more of their body as they lay there...their heads seem to be poised in the 'middle' of their body in effect.

Parent Pigeons of course do not have recourse to powder mixes...

So, my regimen is to use the powders for about half to one third of the formula, and the rest, small Seeds, fresh ground Seeds of larger kinds, and other stuff of course.

I usually do not start small whole Seeds till the Baby is about 8 or 10 days old or so...and I thenm do so moderately.

Anyway, the idea of waiting for their Crop to empty for feeding again, is not how they are in Nature, and I am not sure where the idea came from...but that was what I used to hear one was supposed to do, so I used to do it that way for a long time.

I think the worry with that comes from useing the powder-mixes, which for various reasons can promote yeast or candida problems, and so one is always a little nervous about Crop process, and not wanting to feed a Static Crop and so on...

The ACV-Water should prevent any Yeats or Candida problems...so...I think it is allright to keep them decently 'full', but I would add some fresh ground real Seeds and other things to the powder to change it's texture and to make it all closer to their Natural diet...

And offer Water inbetween times, and of course give a little massage to their Crop if one thinks it is not moveing along as fast as it should or that it has got a sort of 'slug' in it, but never so that any reflux or pressure would make the food come 'up'...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Now that you mention it his crop does feel slightly 'slug' like when it's almost empty. So that's the formula thickening in his crop? 

I am feeding only the KT. Since I'm not quite sure how old he is I haven't added anything to it. I do have some small seeds I could grind up. How much should I add? Sorry more questions.  

Also what about baby food (applesauce, mashed peas.. etc) could I mix some of that with the KT?

Thanks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine,





Raine said:


> Now that you mention it his crop does feel slightly 'slug' like when it's almost empty. So that's the formula thickening in his crop?



Yahhhhh...that be the 'slug'...

And it sort of sticks to itself more than it dissolves, especially if his system draws off the moisture it needs to stay more dissolved, so it ends up being kind of a 'slug' there, pending more moisture, but then the water he will drink will tend mostly to just go around it, so, your little 'massage' is helpful for this kind of situation.




> I am feeding only the KT. Since I'm not quite sure how old he is I haven't added anything to it. I do have some small seeds I could grind up. How much should I add? Sorry more questions.



He is pretty little, like 6 or 7 days maybe.

If it was me, I would...

Grind some regular Pigeon Seed mix, or a good Bird Seed mix, into a semi-coarse 'meal', about like Percolators used to prefer for their Coffee to be ground...not too fine, but of course not too 'coarse' either...

You can use a regular Kitchen Blender, but you will have to put in most of a Tea Cup worth for the Blender to do it, and then stop, take something narrow, and scoop out the un-ground Seeds from around the blad base, and grind some more.

Do this 'dry' of course...

When you go to the Health Food Store, get a package of semi-dry Goji-Berries. And if they sell bulk stuff by-the-ounce, get a few ounces of Purple Dulce which will be little flakes.
Also get a little Bottle of Sour or Dark Cherry syrup or concentrated juice.

When you grind the Seeds, if you grind a Tea Cup full of Seeds, add about 30 Goji Berries to them so the Berries get ground up too.


Keep this 'Seed Meal' covered and in the freezer for when needed...and of course it is a 'dry' mix.

Go to 'petsmart' or the likes, and get a tube of 'Nutrical', likely it is in the 'puppy' isle...

Get some 'plain' Malto Meal...

For his daily chow for now, take say one flat Tablespoon of the 'K-T'...and one rounded one of the dry Seed-Berry mix, and one half or so of a Tablespoon of the Malto Meal and put into a Tea Cup or similar...Add a teaspoon of Purple Dulce, and stirr them togather dry...

...and cover with enough good cool Water so the Water covers it with 3/8ths or so of an inch Water on top, and let sit for twenty minutes or so.

After it has sat, add a inch and a half long 'squig' of the 'Nutrical', a half teaspoon or so of fresh, new Bottle Olive Oil ( do not skimp here by useing anything else! ) and a teaspoon or so of the Cherry Juice...

...and warm some cool Water on the Stove in a Saucepan, say an inch and a half or so of Water...and set the Cup of formula in the Water there and stirr so that it is all even and homogenous, if you need to, add some more Water so the formula arrives at the desired consistancy, about like melted Ice Cream would be...and this will simultaneously warm it evenly since you are stirring continuously, and when it get to about 100 -103 degrees, bring the Tea Cup and the Nipple and so on and feed him.

If you get good at this, and remove the Sauce Pan from the Stove with the Water at the right temp, you can leave the Cup in the Saucepan for keeping it warm in Winter time while you feed, and or if you have multiple Peepers/Squeakers/Youngsters you are feeding, otherwise it can cool off too fast...



This batch, in the Tea Cup or little Custard Cup or similar, you can then freeze untill the next meal time, when you will of course warm it again.

It should be fine for three days use this way, if frozen between meals.

If Refriderated only between meals, it chould be covered of course, and made fresh each day...do not re-use previous refridgerated formula.





> Also what about baby food (applesauce, mashed peas.. etc) could I mix some of that with the KT?
> 
> Thanks


People Baby Foods have so close to no nutrition at all, a Bird would probably starve to death on them. And too, being cooked, they are valueless for all but some trace minerals or phoney calories of added sugar or what...no good for Birds...really no good for people-babys either.

Good Quality Seeds have the highest nutrition anyone could ever seek.

I wish I had a Gizzard, I would eat mostly Seeds and some Greens and maybe a slice of Pie now and then, and just forget the rest...

Lol...

So no, I would not use any of those...

And, if you use the stuff I like, and outlined above, your Peeper should be getting really excellent nutrition, have a happy little Thyroid, excellent Calcium uptake for nice Bones and all, as well as really good tasting formula to please his taste buds...and all the protean he will need for making all those feathers and so on.

Tase it, you'll see!

It is really very yummy.

Bayby Doves like it too, and THEY can be pretty hard to please sometimes..!

In fact, I would have to say, 99 out of 100 Dove or Pigeon Peepers agree, this is the chow they love...and the 1 who did not agree, wanted more Goji-Berries in it, so even that is easy to fix...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, what is purple dulce? I don't recall your mentioning that ingredient before.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie,


Purple Dulce is a kind of Sea Weed or Sea Vetable...

I just did a 'goole' and could find no information on it, other then it occuring in various Herbal combination things.

Anyway, it is good for all Creatures...

Health Food Stores which carry bulk Herbs and related, will have it by the Ounce, and it is very reasonable...

Too, I often add some powdered 'Super Greens' of some kind or another to the Baby's formula, and these similarly, are usually available in bulk, by the ounce...or in Powder in a small container.

My favorite Sea Weed that everyone of all ages loved I can not seem to find here anymore...

It had no more Sodium in it than the Seeds do, and was great for the A and some other Vitamines.

Many Sea Weeds or Sea Vegetables are not salty at all, and are close in various ways to the low plants which pigeons graze in the wilds or feral rhelms

Similarly, the Goji-Berries do well to answer for various small fruiting Bodys they also will graze when avialable, as well as being an excellent all around food and antioxidant.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> 
> Purple Dulce is a kind of Sea Weed or Sea Vetable...
> ...


According to the Gogi Berry package at my Health Food Store, Phil is correct. 

AND, for us humans, these delightful little Goji Berry morsels ALSO come covered in DARK CHOCOLATE - thus covering TWO BASIC FOOD GROUPS (chocolate and fruit)!!   mmmm, DELICIOUS!!

We can munch along with our pijies...(WE get the chocolate, of course!)


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Wow thanks Phil! I have to make a list and go shopping.  

I'm not sure if I'll be able to find the Nutrical. I don't have a petsmart here.. just small locally owned pet stores. I will take a look though. Is there anything I can substitute the Nutrical for in case I can't find it?

Malto Meal and olive oil I know I can get at the grocery store. But the sour cherry syrup or juice I don't recall seeing. I take it, it also needs to be unsweetened? since I know yeast loves sugar. 

I've never been into a health food store..  But I know there must be one here. I'll have to take a look through the phone book. 

My hubby is at work.. and I don't drive. So I'll have to locate the health food store and arrange a ride, hopefully today.  

Thanks again. I'll let you know how I make out shopping.


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ok I called every health food store in the phone book. Only one has the Goji berries and she only has one 100g package. They are pretty popular I guess. Everyone has them backordered. I got her to put it away for me along with the dark cherry juice.

She also has Dulce.. but not Purple Dulce. Is regular Dulce ok?


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

UGH nevermind the above. She sold the berries on me. I got a ride all the way up there too.  

So I ordered some Goji Berries, purple dulce and dark cherry juice from another health food store. It will all be in on Tuesday. 

I couldn't find the malto-milk or the Nutrical though. 

So in the meantime I ground up some seeds. I strained out any of the larger 'chunks' so it's blended to a nice textured powder. Can I just mix the powdered seed with the KT alone?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine, 


"Malto Meal"...the old-time, plain, breakfast Cereal one traditionally cooks...


It is not far from say "K-T" nutritionally, and the peepers LOVE that 'Malty' hint in their chow...and for their formula, one just adds it from the box 'dry' to one's other dry ingredients and does not cook it of course...

Sorry, I may have made a typo and written 'malto milk'..! Lol...forgive me!


Anyway, sounds good!

'Nutrical' should be easy to get on-line if no one local carries it...

It is usually associated with 'puppies' or 'kittens', so...any place that has those, or Breeds them, might have a tube to spare too...


See how easy all this is???

( Well, I can be accused of making it more complicated than some do...but by golly, it is for the Peepers! So, what else can we do? ) 


Lol...


I personally HATE 'Health Food Stores'...almost every packaged item in them is some corporate scam for overpriceing erstwhile 'weeds' and obscure if otherwise mundane Herbs or Botanical items, that are a hassle to get otherwise...

Oriental or Chineese Grocery stores carry Goji-Berries for like three bucks, for a larger size package, than the twelve-to-fourteen dollar package in 'Health Food Stores'...

Makes my blood boil..!

And most of the people shopping in those 'Health Food Stores' ( or running these stores, ) seem to have somehting 'wrong' with them in some weird way or other...or to be margainally creepy even. At least here in Las Vegas, it is so anyway.

I like it when they have 'bulk' items in the bins and Big jars by-the-ounce...and those items then are usually very reasonable.


If you feel like it, consider also to get some 'Udos Choice', ( or other) "Infant" powdered pro-biotics, and or to send off and get the 'Pigeon' kind Mail Order...

And also, some 'Digestive Enzymes'...( health food store...the kind I got are old fashioned Gellitan Capsules, easy to pull apart to get the powder out of...came in a little box called a 'Travel Pack'.) 

These are both very good for infant Birds, as well as for Birds who have come off anti-biotics...likely ten or twelve bucks I think...

Best wishes you two!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

The poor little guy is still getting the 'slug' in his crop and I'm mixing his formula quite thin. I even have been letting the formula sit in a cup to let it absorb water and then thinning it out again before feeding to try to minimize it thickening in his crop.

But lastnight his crop was quite firm. I felt like dough.  So I gave him some ACV water and loosened it up. But this morning there was still a small slug in there. I gave him more ACV water and loosened the rest up. I'm hoping it's gone before it's time for his next feeding. He's getting quite annoyed with me since I keep waking him up to massage his crop.  

Actually I think that was my typo 'Malto milk'.. lol I meant to say I couldn't find Malto meal. 

The cherry juice at the health food store was sold in 2 litre jugs and was quite expensive, $32 canadian. So I asked her if she had anything smaller since I don't need that much. When I told her it was for a Pigeon she thought it was quite funny. LOL But she said she'd give me a small container for free. Since she was nice enough to do that for me I decided to get the other stuff there too (Goji-berries and Purple dulce).


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Just an update. It seems I have the slug problem under control. If I notice his crop getting thick then I just give him some more AVC water with probiotics in it. 

His crop is still a little slow emptying. But he's also eating than he was when I first brought him home. He's emptying completely overnight. So I'm probably just worrying over nothing. 

The bigger he gets the more pushy he is. He's like a little fuzzy monster at feeding time. LOL If I'm too slow at filling the 'nipple' he tries to climb in the bowl instead.  

He also moving around quite a bit now and beginning to grip with his feet and 'perch' when I set him on my finger. 

Another question though.. I've had him for 10 days.. Guessing he was a day or 2 old when I got him that should make him 11-12 days old. But when I look at pics from http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm He's behind in development. He 'looks' more like the 7-8 day old babies. I figured he would develop a little slower.. but it that normal to appear to be that far behind?

I'll have to take some new pics so you can see what I mean..


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hand raised babies tend to lag behind in development. Seems though they are able to catch up later.
As long as he eating, pooping and being happy he should be fine.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Raine said:


> Just an update. It seems I have the slug problem under control. If I notice his crop getting thick then I just give him some more AVC water with probiotics in it.


What is his formula now? Are you adding other things to it?

You could add small whole Seeds now of course, and he'd like that...that, and a little fine Canary Grit, but just a little pinch...



> His crop is still a little slow emptying. But he's also eating than he was when I first brought him home. He's emptying completely overnight. So I'm probably just worrying over nothing.


If he is active and assertive and all-wound-up at feed times, and if he is making lots of nice little poops...sounds like all is going well with him.

I forget, how are you keeping him warm?

Remember, he needs ot ba about 101 - 103 Farenteit 24/7...except when you take him out, or he when he trundles out to be fed of course...




> The bigger he gets the more pushy he is. He's like a little fuzzy monster at feeding time. LOL If I'm too slow at filling the 'nipple' he tries to climb in the bowl instead.


Just as it should be...they LOVE to eat...

Wait a few more weeks, and you'll see just how 'pushy' pushy can get...!




> He also moving around quite a bit now and beginning to grip with his feet and 'perch' when I set him on my finger.


Sounds good...

If he is in a 'Peeper Warm House', this is about when he can start trundleing out when called...




> Another question though.. I've had him for 10 days.. Guessing he was a day or 2 old when I got him that should make him 11-12 days old. But when I look at pics from http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm He's behind in development. He 'looks' more like the 7-8 day old babies. I figured he would develop a little slower.. but it that normal to appear to be that far behind?
> 
> I'll have to take some new pics so you can see what I mean..



As Reti mentions above, sometimes our people-raised Babys will lag beind the Pigeon-raised ones, and this is because the Pigeon Raised ones get a lot more food than we tend to feed ours. They keep their Babys stuffed to the gills, never waiting for the Baby's Crop to empty. Ours always catch up just fine however, so no worries there on that.

They are very adaptable...

But in my own practice, by now, for one a week old or so, I'd be making formula which is about 1/3rd small whole Seeds, or even 1/2...as well as adding the Dulce and Super Greens and Nutrical and so on...so, if you have not been so far, you'd be fine to do so now.

Too, sometimes the people-raised ones will not get their Feathers in on areas which food routinely gets spilled, and these areas always fill in just fine later.

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

> What is his formula now? Are you adding other things to it?


The only thing I'm adding currently is ground up seeds and not at every feeding. I find the 'slug' seems to return if I add the ground seed in at each meal. It doesn't matter how watery I make the mixture or long I leave it out to sit and absorb water either. During the day it's not as bad.. but at night it just thickens in his crop and leaves a 'lump' come morning.  




> I forget, how are you keeping him warm?


I'm using a heating pad wrapped in a towel set on low. And I cut up an old t-shirt for him to cuddle up in. The temperature varies a bit between 99-101. 




> Wait a few more weeks, and you'll see just how 'pushy' pushy can get...!


Haha. I have a hard enough time holding him still now. I may need an extra pair of hands soon. 

He starts peeping for more food once his crop is about half-empty. With this 'slug' problem I wait until his crop is almost completely empty so I can feel for any lumps I may have missed and loosen them up before his next feeding. 

Oh.. and I have a poop question. His poops have a fair bit of clear water with them. Is it because I've been giving him extra water to loosen the clumps in his crop? During the night his poops seem to get firmer with less water. But I'm also not giving him extra water during the night. I know with my cockatiel if she eats 'watery' foods her poops are very watery. I'm wasn't sure if it was the same way for Pigeons.

Thanks Reti and Phil. His growth was bothering me. I thought something else was wrong. Good to know it's fairly normal and he'll catch up. I do see pin feathers, but they are not through the skin yet. I still haven't taken those pic.. I'll get some today. 

Thanks again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine,


Yahhhhh...the 'extra' Water that is sort of going around the 'slug' can sort of pass on through in it's way...no harm with that.

Anyway, I always offer tepid Water between meals...and gently massage a Crop that seems to want it...

The ground seeds of course absorb quite a bit of Water at liesure, so a soupy formula is the best.

You could just use small whole Seeds really, with some KT and other stuff, and be fine at this point, and skip the ground ones.

In Nature, they'd be getting Seeds and dabs of Greens or Bitter Weeds and so on by now, and little to any Crop Milk as such anyway.


Now, the only restraint needed for them, is when one wishes to withdraw the Nipple from their Beak, and or so keep them from pushing SO hard...Lol...

And I usually just use an inverted finger 'V' from above, kind of at their shoulders to gently hol;d them back a little...but they are quite assertive, as you are finding out!

One must not restrain them by having anything against their Crop of course.

If you do the "ooooooOOOoooo!" call, for any feed or Water times, they will just come trundleing out of their Box now, and later, he will come when called once flying or exploreing.

Their later fledgling time...this can be pretty important to get them rounded up from high places or the out of doors forays...where, otherwise, if one has no 'parental' way to call them, there will be confusions and problems and or premature 'releases' by default.

Are you making formula each morning, and keeping it refrigerated through-out the day for his various meals?

This helps it hydrate it fully, but their Crops still tend to draw off the Water regardless...


Post some images so we can see him some more...!

It is always fun to see a Peeper of course...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

He had quite the slug in there this morning on the right side.  At first I thought it was a growth/abcess or something because it felt hard. Scared the crap out of me.  But I massaged his crop and gave him 2cc's of AVC water and it loosened it right up. Phew! 

I'm making his formula 'fresh' each meal. I mix it up a small amount about 20 minutes before each feeding. Whatever is left over I throw out. He's fed every 3-4 hours depending on how much food he has left in his crop. 

This little guy does not want to withdrawl his beak from the nipple. I have to wait until he's mid swallow and pull his head out. haha Otherwise if it's empty he 'gapes' and I can't get the nipple off his beak.  

Here's a few pics. I found one lonely pin feather this morning on his hip. I thought he had something stuck in his down. Low and behold it was a pin feather.  

He still looks so much younger than he is. He is about 13-14 days old now.

Hmmm.. in that second pic. Does he look too thin? I may have snapped the pic mid breath.. And the redness on his legs and under the wings.. is that normal?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What a darling baby dinosaur.
S/he is just too sweet. Please give him a big kiss from me.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Raine said:


> He had quite the slug in there this morning on the right side.  At first I thought it was a growth/abcess or something because it felt hard. Scared the crap out of me.  But I massaged his crop and gave him 2cc's of AVC water and it loosened it right up. Phew!
> 
> 
> > Hi Raine,
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

P.S.


How many of thise 'short' Nipple-fulls is he eating in-a-day?

I never keep track of these things, but I would think he should be putting away fifty or so of them, if you are just useing the cut-off 5/8ths of an inch or so 'end' of a Nipple...

If say, five or six of those to a feed, and six or eight feeds, then really more like 50 servings for 'that' container/nose bag...

But this is just off the cuff...

Of course, if his Crop is slow form the way the formula is behaving, and you are waiting for the Crop to empty before feeding again, this will lessen the overall amount of food he is getting...

And this may be some of why he is developeing slowly.

So, in summary, add some small whole Seeds, digestive enzymes, Cherry or Goji or Elderberry Syrups/concentrates, Dulce, Nutrical...a good pinch of fine Canary Grit, and make up his formula the night before, adding plenty of Water, and let it sit overnight, covered, in the Frige, and THEN stirr it all together as you warm it in a pan of hot Water, adding whatever additional Water it needs to be like 'melted Ice Cream', and...

Look out! He will start growing like gangbusters...!


Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Ok where do I start. haha

How many Nipple fulls? Hmm.. guessing I would say 15 or so per feeding. I only fill the nipple up so that it's just below his nostrils when he sticks his beak in it. I use a 1cc syringe to fill the nipple but I never keep track of the total amount. 

I don't wait until his crop is completely empty before his next feeding. I just wait until he's close to empty. If I waited for him to completely empty his feedings would probably be about 6 hours apart. I figured that was too long and he sure doesn't like waiting that long. So I just keep an eye on his crop and make sure it's soft and squishy and give him water as needed. 

The only time I've delayed a feeding is if he has a slug in there. Then he's given acv water and I loosen it up. Once I'm sure the clump is gone then I feed him. 

The Goji berries, dulce and cherry juice are on order. They were suppose to come in today but she called and told me they didn't come in. 

The only things I've added to his formula thus far are probiotics, digestive enzymes and ground seed. 

I'll get some grit and small seeds on payday which is friday. Hopefully the stuff from the health food store will be in then too.

I actually tried using a full size nipple with just the ring cut off but he kept getting formula in his eyes, so that's why I cut it smaller.

Oh would dandelion leaves work for 'greens'? I had bought some from the grocery store for my aquatic snails. They are full of calcium. I had thought about grinding some up and putting it in his formula. But I thought I better check if it was ok first.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

I just wanted to say how well you are doing Raine- I don't think I could do it - that baby is so tiny still - he is definately going to call you Mom!! 

You are doing a great job. 

Tania x


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> What a darling baby dinosaur.
> S/he is just too sweet. Please give him a big kiss from me.
> 
> Reti



So true Reti..!

Same here...a nice big smootch..!

Really, an extant Coelurosaur anyway...to be sure...


Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Raine


That all sounds good to me...

Hmmmm...I should think Dandy Lion Greens would be fine, if minced up real small and all to his gobbleing to deal with easily.

The powdered 'Super Greens', or 'Chlorella' of course are very good, and being powders, mix easily even for one's 'Tube Feed' occasions, which you do not have, but for those of us who sometimes do...

I guess I can not thinkk of anything else right now...

He sure is a little cutie...!

Yahhh...the almost-full-size Nipple can be a little deep for them at this age...for which I sort of pinch the Nipple's base a little to effect the depth, but if the small version is working well, just stay with it a while yet.

Very young Doves will put their whole head into the almost full size Nipple, clear past the eyeballs...and for them of course, the small version is much more tidy...

Lol...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, at your convenience, could you post a picture of the nipple you're talking about. I think I understand what you're cutting off but (duh) I need to have a picture drawn sometimes  When we tried to use a nipple with all our babies this spring/summer I didn't cut anything off - that may be why they didn't work so well for us (plus when you have so many mouths to feed at one time the syringe was faster!  ).

Thanks.


Raine, I meant to add that those last pictures are about the cutest I've seen of a baby pigeon. He is just precious. We had so many that age this spring to feed but I never tired of them (I got tired but not of them!) because they grow so fast and I wanted to enjoy every minute we had with them.

You have done a wonderful job with him and I know you love him to pieces.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, at your convenience, could you post a picture of the nipple you're talking about. I think I understand what you're cutting off but (duh) I need to have a picture drawn sometimes  When we tried to use a nipple with all our babies this spring/summer I didn't cut anything off - that may be why they didn't work so well for us (plus when you have so many mouths to feed at one time the syringe was faster!  )..



Maggie, I found this one...hope it helps.....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpo...26&postcount=1

Linda


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, at your convenience, could you post a picture of the nipple you're talking about. I think I understand what you're cutting off but (duh) I need to have a picture drawn sometimes  When we tried to use a nipple with all our babies this spring/summer I didn't cut anything off - that may be why they didn't work so well for us (plus when you have so many mouths to feed at one time the syringe was faster!  ).
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> You have done a wonderful job with him and I know you love him to pieces.


Hi Maggie, all...

Here is an image from last year's Summer, with a Baby Dove looking on -

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1415435632067835264ukanjD

The left Nipple, is merely the cut-off 5/8ths or so of an inch, cut off of a regular Nipple, for the little Beaks...

The right, shows a full Nipple with it's flange cut off...for the larger older Beaks.

Now also, not shown, would be one where one cuts off aabout 1/4 inch or a little less from the one on the right, so as to remove the slight vertical section there, with it's re-inforced lines on the outside...to make a Nipple a little shorter at the top, and more pliable.

These three variations are what I use for any Pigeon or Dove Babys from the tiniest to the fully fledged.

I am sure that Nipples are available for nurseing Mammal Livestock Babys or Kitten Babys and so on, but while I have wanted to get some, I have not obtained any yet to try.

Raine appears to be useing one made to be as the one on the left here...


Even the regular People-Baby Nursing Nipples will vary somewhat in their small particulars from brand to brand, or with differenced in the same brand even.

But the general drill is still the same of course.

Hope this helps!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

An even better line up of Nipples, all made from the same standard kind...

http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Yup the nipple I'm using looks about the same as the one on the far right in that last link. Maybe a bit longer.

Just another question.. How long will he need to be on the heating pad? 

Starting lastnight the heating pad I'm currently using decided to go on the fritz.. I could barely sleep last night worrying that it was going to get too hot and burn the little guy or catch fire or something. I have it set on the lowest setting but it's getting too hot. Don't worry I'm replacing it TODAY! But I'll be glad when he no longer needs the heat. 

One little one is tiring enough for me. I don't know how you all do it with more than one.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, the last set of pics are just what I wanted to see. I've copied it for future use so many thanks. We didn't cut off anything and I believe that may have been part of the problem.

Lin, thank you for the link but it came up as "URL not found"?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi-Raine,


My-space-bar-went-bad,so-I-have-to-use-dashes-for-now...

At-some-point-in-their-"Quill-Baby"-phase-they-become-little-furnaces...and-their-Pigeon-parents-sit-on-them-less,then-stop-sitting-on-them-at-all...then-too-the-Babys-usually-have-a-sibling-to-cuddle-up-against...

I-just-let-them-be-on-the-heating-pad-or-off-of-it-as-they-like-and-once-they-are-endothermic-they-tend-to-spend-more-and-more-time-off-of-the-pad.

Glad-you-noticed-the-Heating-Pad-going-bad...!

Yeeeeeeeesh...pretty-scary-stuff...


Best-wishes-you-two!

Phil
Las-Vegas


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Yeah I was a little paranoid about using that heating pad in the first place (It was an old one but it was all I had) So I checked the temp a gazillion times a day. 

I got a new heating pad today so all is well. It still worries me to leave it on all the time. But it's only for a few more weeks.. I hope.  Once he's able to somewhat regulate his own temp I'll switch to a hot water bottle. 

His pin feathers are coming in on his crop, wings and rear end now. It's like they came through overnight. I'm tempted to name him Spike now. LOL


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Raine,
That is one sweet little fuzzy mugwump you have there. You're doing a super job. Now I know who to send all my "hand feeders" to. You ready?
Daryl


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Raine said:


> Yeah I was a little paranoid about using that heating pad in the first place (It was an old one but it was all I had) So I checked the temp a gazillion times a day.
> 
> I got a new heating pad today so all is well. It still worries me to leave it on all the time. But it's only for a few more weeks.. I hope.  Once he's able to somewhat regulate his own temp I'll switch to a hot water bottle.
> 
> His pin feathers are coming in on his crop, wings and rear end now. It's like they came through overnight. *I'm tempted to name him Spike now. *LOL


Great name!!

I went out to buy a heating pad and could only find the ones that do an automatic shut-off. Drove me crazy, turning back on all the time, although there IS residual heat...


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## Raine (Sep 15, 2006)

Oh.. I had a heck of time finding one that didn't have auto-shut off. But I did finally find one after checking 4 stores. It's an el cheapo and it only has low, med, and high. On the low setting as long as he's covered it keeps him at about 100 degrees. So I lucked out there. 

pigeonmama, Nope I'm not ready.  This little guy stresses me out enough.


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