# Canker and eye infection



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Folks, 
It's very good that the new pigeons.com can accept pictures because one picture is worth a thousand words. This bird was brought to me 9:00pm last night. He has canker in the right jaw and a bad bacterially infected eye. I think you will agree that he is about 95% dead. His jaw is in an open, locked position so he can't eat or drink on his own. He's very thin so who can say when he was last able to eat or drink? Under all of that infection, there is an eye and he can see out of it. He is so sick and weak, he can't even raise his head and walking is more of a staggering movement.
Believe it or not, he is microscopically improved this morning. An antibiotic opthalmic ointment began to dissolve the pus in the eye. He's on Baytril and has already received three Spartrix tablets, two last night and one this morning. I can't see exactly where the canker is so the choice of tube feeding him is out. The liquid formula could reflux into his trachea. I had to use a cotton swab and push wet Purina Puppy Chow down his left side. The muscles are so weak that the food in the throat had to be manipulated by fingers and on the outside to get the pieces down into the crop.
If the jaw does not crack when the canker begins to break apart, he has a chance at recovery. If the beak scissors, it's all over. He had to be given electrolytes through the night and into this morning. 
This is a one of those nightmare situations but if he has a chance to recover, he now has it.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hi Fred,

That looks really bad 

You are doing great though and hopefully he will recover well..


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Mary,
All any of us can do is try. Right now, it's too early to tell how this will go.


----------



## Snowbird (Jun 24, 2004)

Consider it from the other perspective. How tough is this bird to still be fighting for life at this stage? If you get the energy level up, he will make it.
Another good job. In one sense I'm glad I don't deal in the inner city and in another sense I wish I did.

I'm getting a higher regard for dog food all the time.


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Snowbird,
You are so right. We should never forget that in the end, it's the bird's body that will decide whether to live or die. This one must have a tremendous will.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Fred,

You really see some of the worst cases, don't you? I'm glad you are there for them.

Every bird has the right to be helped no matter how bad things look, things can change. Glad he is doing a little better.

Treesa


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

"If the beak scissors, it's all over." 
so what does theat mean? i have a feral canker patient right now. i have had him around 2 weeks. the visable canker is gone but his beak is scissored. he eats, drinks and good droppings. he also kicks my butt. he is feisty quick and smarter then me.
so will his beak ever go back to normal?
i have done the picture thing before so i will try it again


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Kim,
Jack's beak looks like it is 'scissored' more than before. His eye looks great.  

*"If the beak scissors, it's all over." *  

I'm sure each 'scissor beak' situation is unique & would have to be evaluated individually. In Jack's case, it appears he is able to compensate quite well, as he is eating & drinking without any problems. 

Folks:
Kim brought Jack over to me on June 8th (picture 1). He had a severe case of canker that was affecting his eye. He was given 1 Spartrix a day for 3 days. Thereafter, Kim cared for him.

Pictrure 2 was taken on June 19th. He eye had improved to the point of beginning to open, however his beak appeared to be 'scissored' somewhat.

In the picture Kim has posted, Jack's eye is completely open & back to normal, however his beak continues to be 'scissored'. 

I'm glad to hear he is doing so well.  

Cindy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*All is not over for Piglet!*

 Hi Cindy and Kippy,

I have had Piglet with his scissored beak caused by canker for nearly a year now, and all is certainly not over for him! He has no difficulty picking up food, but his beak needs trimming regularly or he risks breaking it and causing a bleed. This happened once, I telephoned Helen in despair and she reassured me that he would not bleed to death from a broken beak, but I would rather avoid that happening again!

He has grown into a big and handsome bluebar, with Little Red Feet as his mate.

Cynthia


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for the info Cynthia.
What a little darling Piglet is! I didn't realize his beak was 'scissored' *that* much. 
I belive I remember when the incident occurred with him. Quite frightening indeed.  
I would imagine, with routine 'beak' maintenance things could go quite smoothly.

If the only problem that arises regarding Jack's 'scissor beak' is that he cannot be released, we can figure out something. 

Now that Jack is feeling much better, there is no stopping him.  

Does anyone have a suggestion(s) that could help correct 'scissor beak'?

Kim, 
By his picture, it certainly doesn't look like Jack has missed to many seeds.  

Cindy


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Hi Treesa,
I kind of watch over two flocks and if I see a bird where food is falling out of the mouth while it eats, it's pretty much going to be a canker infection. The point is that the canker won't be allowed to advance to such a bad state such as this. The bird is picked up and treated immediately so it very rarely goes to this extent. When the bird is in another flock, this is the result of allowing it to fester. This bird was brought to me from another borough by a a woman who found him in the street and so this is why the canker is so bad.


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Kippy,
This is a possible worst case scenario if the beak scissors. In this particular instance, there might wind up to be ligaments holding the jaw muscles to the bone and no tendons to hold any remaining muscles together. There would be no beak growth cells on the right side. All of this means that the bird might not be able to even open his mouth to eat. The beak might scissor to a permanent 90 degree angle. That's different than a slightly scissored beak.
None of this has happened yet so it's simply too early to project any kind of an outcome.


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Kippy,
I see your picture and another of a scissored beak. These are not too bad as the birds can still eat. These birds should never be released and the upper beaks overgrowth can be controlled by filing them down. It would be very fortunate that if and when the beak scissors on this bird, it doesn't go beyond what the other two pictures show. Again, it's simply too early to tell what is going to happen.


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Something should be said about life and death. If anyone believes that a bird should be kept alive simply because it can be, in my opinion, it's not the right philosophy. I don't know if anyone here feels differently but it has to be said that there is a difference between permanent sufferiing and discomfort and sometimes, there is a thin line separating the two where it's not that easy to make the call. It's easy to say that if a bird is going to suffer for the rest of it's life, we should accept the responsibility and put the pigeon to sleep. In the two other pictures, there is no reason to put these birds down. They may be uncomfortable but it doesn't go to the point of intolerable suffering. Their quality of life will not be so impaired that they will not enjoy it. 
If a bird has lost a wing, it can still do well in an aviary. If a bird has lost an eye, it can still do well in an aviary. If a bird has lost a leg, it can still do well in an aviary.
What if a bird has lost the use of both legs and is put into an aviary? There is a possibility that abscesses can develop on the breast from laying on it all the time. If it is a hen, there would be constant attacks by the males to mate with this helpless bird. If it's male, it might be subjected to relentless attacks. If these things happen, what does one do? Here is a case of suffering that will not end unless the bird is isolated and put on a surface that will not cause abscesses to form but what is the psychological impact to a flock bird being alone for the rest of its life? I don't claim to have an answer to this but these are the things we are all faced with in going out there to try to help pigeons. We can't get into a bird's mind so we try to do what is best and that is not always as easy as it sounds.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Paralysed Pigeons*

I don't think anyone can have any doubts on my views on euthanasia as my signature says it all, but I was persuaded by a well meaning vet to have a wood pigeon euthanased because generally they do not adapt to captivity.

I bitterly regret that decision which is why I would advise anyone never to assume that a pigeon won't have a good quality without first giving it a good chance of adapting to whatever its condition is. There is plenty of time to reverse a decision to keep a pigeon alive, but the decision to euthanase is final and the pigeon has no say in it.

Of course paralysed birds of any kind are not suited to an aviary. But very few of the unreleasable pigeons rescued through this forum even have the option of aviary life, I would say that most end up as single pets or as part of an indoor pair.

Pigeons frequently suffer up to three weeks paralysis (as a result of egg laying) . Some of our members have permanently paralysed pet pigeons and many members have pigeons that have been permanently separated from their flocks to become house pets. I will leave it to them to comment on whether they consider that their pets lives have quality.


Cynthia


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

The lines of demarcation in this area are never clear. Of course a pigeon that is temporarily paralyzed should not be put to sleep and of course if a pigeon can be made into a pet and live a relatively comfortable life, that is the way to go. I'm talking about permanent suffering where there is not much of a chance for the bird to have any kind of quality of life. I don't believe in euthanasia either as a choice when we don't really know how the bird will do. Most of the birds that I've taken in either die on their own or heal from whatever the problem is. Sometimes, they are not releasable but so far for me, they are lucky because I was able to place them. When it comes to a life or death decision, everything possible should be done to make sure that the bird can have a decent quality of life before even considering whether a life should be taken. That's why a decision like this should not be made until and only after everything else has been exausted, when there is no option left.
We don't disagree on this.


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

jack has too much life euthanasia is not an option. i wish his beak would go back just a little. jack kinda freaks me out when he looks at me. 
cindy, you maybe seeing jack again and i guess i may be building "another cage." with this canker i'm not too crazy about putting jack in with my other pij's. the cage jacks in now is too small.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*jack has too much life euthanasia is not an option. * 
I don't think it would be fair to make a snap decision regarding the fate of any pigeon that appears to have 'scissor' beak as a result of canker, until the canker has been taken care of. 
By no means is Jack ready to retire his feathers. 

*cindy, you maybe seeing jack again * 
That would be great!

*i guess i may be building "another cage." with this canker i'm not too crazy about putting jack in with my other pij's. * 
Even if canker wasn't an issue, Kippy is going to get her feathers ruffled if she has to contend with another roommate.  
You're becoming a regular little carpenter aren't you?  

Are you planning to release Smack this weekend?

Cindy


----------



## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*Are you planning to release Smack this weekend?*

No, I am going to wait till next weekend. i worry about the dogs and birds during the 4th of july weekend. we already have had bottle rockets going off for the past week.

then i can put jack in that cage that smack is in but i don't think that one is big enough either. 

smack with a bad tongue and jack with a bad beak. canker sure leaves its mark.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*'Are you planning to release Smack this weekend?'*
_*No, I am going to wait till next weekend. i worry about the dogs and birds during the 4th of july weekend. * _ 
Geez, short memory I have!  
I wasn't even thinking this was the 4th of July weekend. Sure wish I could gather all my backyard buddies & put them in the AZ room.

Cindy


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Fred,

How is your patient doing? Any improvement?

Linda


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Linda,
Thanks very much for asking. He passed away very quietly on the third day. Afterwards, I took a look inside and he was better off going. One continuous mass of hard canker had reached the base of the skull, completely filled the sinus cavities, pushed against the right eye and then continued downward deep into the throat. He must have been in a great deal of pain and if he had survived, would have needed major surgery to remove the huge mass. This was one that was brought to me way too late.
Here is one that was brought to me on Friday night. He must have gotten his leg caught in something and then when he tried to pull himself out, he left the lower part of his leg behind. He's standing on one leg and that is a very big plus. He's on antibiotics to prevent an infection in the leg and calcium to build up his bone strength in the remaining leg. When he's strong enough and the danger of infection has passed, he'll go to an aviary for handicapped pigeons so there will be a place in the sun for him.


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Fred,

I'm so sorry about the first bird....poor thing had hung on so long in such bad condition, guess we were all hoping for a miracle. 

And now look at this poor baby! Bless you for taking such good care of these poor birds. At least the prognosis looks good for this one, but God, I feel so sorry that they have these things happen to them and have to go through such pain. Guess bad things can happen anywhere, but do you think the birds have more chance for injury in cities (like where you are) than in rural places? Although, I guess in rural settings there is more chance for attacks from natural predators. Jeez, I am no vegetarian, but I hate this food chain business....

Thanks for the update, and again, sorry the poor pidge didn't make it.

Linda


----------



## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Thanks Linda. I always have hope even though my gut instincts tell me that any particular bird will not make it. There is no harm in trying. The leg injury bird will definitely do well. I don't know how pigeons do elsewhere but this accident could have happened anywhere. They do get caught in various things.


----------



## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi, I too have had a pigeon (Woody) with scissor beak, Helen suggested that i used a syrgical tape to tape it together for 12 hours (Overnight), which I did (avoiding the nostiels!) just the bit at the end, It certainly did improve the beak no end, although still scissor'd but not to the extent it was . Maybe I was just lucky, but I think worth a shot.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Hi, I too have had a pigeon (Woody) with scissor beak, Helen suggested that i used a syrgical tape to tape it together for 12 hours (Overnight), which I did (avoiding the nostiels!) just the bit at the end, It certainly did improve the beak no end, although still scissor'd but not to the extent it was . Maybe I was just lucky, but I think worth a shot.*

Thanks Karen, for sharing your experience, by following Helen's suggestion, with a 'scissor beaked' pijjie. This is yet another case in point that we should never *underestimate* a situation that has the potential of being corrected. 

Cindy


----------

