# 17 year old pet pigeon wings down



## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

At the end of July, my 17 year old pigeon went through a really tough time. My avian vet was at a conference in Colorado, so I ended up taking him to a new vet, although that was pretty much a waste of $300.00 as she only took Xrays and never did a throat or poop culture. With the help of this board, I got Mr. Pidge back on his feet, and besides his wings remaining a bit down, he's looked good and doing well up until the last few days. 

On Saturday, after the vet clinic was closed of course, he just didn't seem like he felt well and he smelt a bit strong, kind of sour? Although his poops looked regular, and he was eating good. I started him on Divet Saturday night, 1/2 tab per day, and he improved, but then this morning I noticed that he threw up his seeds. I totally cleaned out his cage, all extra seeds he throws around, and as far as I can tell this has only happened once today, and I have seen him eating fairly well. To make sure he is holding his food now, I cooked him a small bit of white rice, something he eats like crazy, but I don't give this to him very often. He ate every piece I gave him, about 10 to 12 grains over an hour ago, and no vomit yet. 

He gets a diet of Hagen pigeon/dove seed mix, parakeet mix, and also Harrison's pelleted food. As suggested by his regular bird vet I also had him on Lafeber's Bird Vitamins daily in his water. I have not used grit with him in the last couple of years, because he has a lot of trouble with it, and has blood in his poops when I use it. The vet suggested not using grit, and doing the small seed/pelleted food mix instead and he has done quite well on that.

I'm sending some photos of how he looks posture-wise and his most recent poops. They seem a bit more watery than usual to me. Sorry, I forgot to get them on white paper, but there is no blood in them at all--as far as what I can see with the naked eye. 

Besides wings being down and the throwing up this morning, he seems to be his regular old self--trying to bite me while I was taking his photos--very normal for him. Just thought I'd see what you all think, as far as should I take him into the vet, or would the vomit possibly just be something that just happened to occur today. 

I have Divet and Metronidazeloum on hand. At the time Mr. Pidge was sick before I tried to get Medistatin but the online supplier who was supposed to have it did not. Since he was getting better I never ordered it...

If he is smelling sour, will the Metronidazeloum help? Can I use it along with the Divet, or should I use one over the other? I'm really quite hesitant to go to the vet again, as I sure can't afford another $300 this week--just had to have my beloved dog put down last week, so I'm about on overload with animal issues lately--when it rains...

Again, thanks so much for your help. Several members here really got us through a rough spot last time, and I sure do appreciate your knowledge of pigeons.

Tracey


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Divet = trimethoprim sulfa; a pretty good wide-spectrum antibiotic, but not always effective against some things. Don't think it is a top choice for gut/renal maladies, for example....

Metronidazole may or may not be a better alternative...I dunno if it interacts OK with Divet, though...I suppose you can research online a bit about that.

Now, the sour smell....it can either be from the vomiting (a pigeon's breath will smell sour after vomiting) or perhaps something else. How does the inside of his mouth look ? Normal ? or pale/grey ? Any signs of any odd growths or such ?

The wing droop is generally indicative of illness, if he is doing it all the time.

The poops...I dunno, doesn't look too bad to me but I am not much of a poop-reader.

If your regular avian vet is back in town, I'd suggest a blood test and fecal.....around here that'd run about $150 total (I am sorry to hear about your dog, BTW). 

Your pigeon ~ he's a fine old fellow at 17 years of age; I wouldn't mess too much with educated guessing on meds.....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, droppings do look off. I would start him on both the Divet and Metronidazole, can you remind us what strength you have for both? I would also, for now, pick out all of the larger seeds from his food, like the large unhulled wheat grain in his food, keep his seeds to the smaller size. I would also start him on some ACV (organic apple cider vinegar, with the "mother wort") start at 1 tablespoon a gallon the first day and move it up to 2 the second, to get him used to the taste (try 3 the third, but if he seems to not be drinking it well, back off to 2). Here is a link for some Medistatin from Jedds, they almost always have it in stock:

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-651/MEDISTATIN-100-g-(Medpet)/Detail.bok

Wings down can be indicative of GI issues or possible reproductive issues (these can happen in male reproductive glands too) the Divet and Metronidazole combination should be a good combo to deal with these possibilities.

What's his weight like?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mr-Pidges-Mom,


Treat for Canker, "a.s.a.p."


Metronidazole would be a good choice if you have it on hand.


Make his drinking Water, the famous "ACV-Water ( say, three Tablespoons of Raw, Unfiltered, Organic, Apple Cider Vegar, to a Gallon of Water ).



Keep on with the 'DIVET' if you like, but do the Metronidazole and ACV-Water for a week.


He may also have a Candida or Yeast issue accompanying this, do you have any Medistatin?


The ACV will help, but, ideally, Medistatin and the Metronidazole would be the de-rigeur for this.



If you are on good terms with a Vet, and do not have these Meds on hand, appeal to them for these Meds.




Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Indeed, as Karyn reminds, limit his Seeds to only the smallest size ones, or 'pellets' which will dissolve into mush in his Crop.


Monitor is Crop and poops to make sure things are passing well...

If he does not wish to drink the ACV-Water, can you 'tube' it in?

Do you know how?


Do you know how to do the 'Burrito Bird', and, to check his Throat for lesions/debris?




Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi M-P-M,



Anyway, this usually messes up their appetite...not always, but, usually.

So he might feel hungry for ten seconds, then feel disgusted or woosey or nauseated or loose interest, and that is how it is with this.


Long as he is eating ( and passing his food intake ) a little here and there for the next few days, is fine.


Hydration for now is more important than food.


If he seems to have lost weight ( this thing slowly gaining on him for however long ) let us know.



Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the link, Karyn. Just ordered Metronidazole from Jedds, 2nd day air, so should be here Thursday. 

For the Metronizaolum I have 60 ml tablets. For the Divet there is no strength listed on the bottle, on the website, or in the catalog. You can see that listed online here though:

http://www.vitakingproducts.com/antibiotics1.htm

I got everything I have from Vita King.

Since I'm not so great at getting solid pills down Mr. Pidge, I've been crushing them and putting them in filtered water and shooting them down his mouth. Can I give him both of these products at the same time together? I have been giving him 1/2 tab of Divet since Saturday night. I can start him on Metronidazolum now.

I have the Apple Cider Vinegar in the refridgerator, so I will mix him a batch up now. Don't think I have a gallon jug though. Any ideas on how vinegar per a lesser amount, like a cup of water?


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks, Phil. I haven't tubed him, but I have used a syringe to get the meds down him, as I don't do well cramming the solid pills. I usually press the tablets into a powder, put it in filtered water, and then get that into a syringe. As for Burrito Bird, no I haven't done that, but I would imagine you are talking about wrapping him in something to keep his wings down.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey,

Did you order the Medistatin as well? With the Divet, I found a little more information on the at Foys (page 16) http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/downloads/foys_0809.pdf , seems that 1/4 - 1/2 half tablet can be given twice a day, so depending on what Mr. Pidge's weight is, we could possibly up the amount. With the Metronidazolum, we will have to trust that it is equal to 60mg of Metronidazole, as around this amount is a fairly common dose with pigeons. You can give both at the same time, but if the Divet dose is increased, you will just give it with one of the two Divet doses. Shooting them down his throat can be problematic, if not down far enough, some could be aspirated, did you see this video clip on how to "pop" food for a pigeon (same method for pills):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

You can mix up 1 teaspoon of ACV to a liter/quart (this will be roughly equivalent to 1 1/3 tablespoons a gallon, up it to 2 teaspoons in a day if things go well).

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Hey Karyn, 

I meant to write that I ordered this from Jedds tonight:

MEDISTATIN 100 g (Medpet)
(Retail, 100 g (.22 lb) net / plastic / MED032 / 31.95)

So I will have all three products on hand when that gets here. I have Metronidazolum and Divet now. I have no way of weighing him. He does seem a bit thinner to me, but not by much. 

I actually found a gallon jug that had Apple Cider in it. I rinsed it with hot water, then mixed up the solution with Apple Cider Vinegar. Do I need to keep that refridgerated?

t's tough keeping warm in my 100 year old house, and it's getting really cold here in the mountains of NC, so I bought a twin-size electric blanket for the top of his cage. He's in a giant parrot cage, so it won't be too hot on him.

Is it OK to feed him cooked Basmati Rice? He really loves that and eats it like crazy, but I wasn't sure if it was a safe thing to feed or not. I would imagine it would digest pretty easily.

I'm going out to look at the video on food popping now.

Thanks again for everyone jumping in and helping me with my boy bird. 

Tracey


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Don't think I have a gallon jug though. Any ideas on how vinegar per a lesser amount, like a cup of water?


If you have a 2 Pint container, use half the amount of ACV with 2 pint of water & shake thouroughly, then pour away just over half & fill up with water & shake again. final mix is near enough the same as Gallon mix.
If you have a 1 Pint container, still use half the amount of ACV, fill shake & pour away just over half, but do this 4 times in total.

(Edit) Ok, posted near enough same time as you found gallon jug lol


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Is it OK to feed him cooked Basmati Rice? He really loves that and eats it like crazy, but I wasn't sure if it was a safe thing to feed or not. I would imagine it would digest pretty easily.


Tracey, I don't see a big problem with doing this, as if he were still in the wild, cooked rice would be part of his natural foraging diet in the city. However, because it is cooked food, I would keep its use as more of a treat and make sure he eats a good quality pigeon mix (minus the large seeds/peas/corn... and so on.. right now). In the summer I do refrigerate my ACV, when I mix it up, in the cooler/cold months, I just keep it in the coop, well sealed. I just give it a few days a week and throw away what I don't use. You are using it as therapy right now, so you will be giving it a number of days in a row to help with any crop issues.

Any of your friends/family have a kitchen scale you could use/borrow or any stores, you are friendly enough with, would weigh him in a sealed box (you can weight the box separately and simple math will tell us what he weighs)?

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Hmmm, what a sweet bird on that video! Not sure if it will be quite so easy to get whole pills down Mr. Pidge. He is a crotchety old bird with BIG attitude : ) I guess that's why I love him so much.

I will see if I can get him to take the pills I have on hand now. So it will be 1/2 half tablet of Divet and one full tablet of Metronidazolum once a day, correct? I started him on 1/2 tab per day of Divet on Saturday Night, so that will be done on Friday. The Metronidazolum is instructing the dose as 1 tablet per day for 3 to 5 days, so I guess if I went 5 days then I'd end on Sunday with those. Is that OK?

When I get the MEDISTATIN, can I give all three at the same time, or should I space it out, like MEDISTATIN in the morning and the other two at night? 

Sorry for all the question, but I just don't want to overload him.

I've put the Cider Vinegar in his water too.

Tracey
Wondering if Metronidazolum the same as Metronidazole?


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Quazar said:


> If you have a 2 Pint container, use half the amount of ACV with 2 pint of water & shake thouroughly, then pour away just over half & fill up with water & shake again. final mix is near enough the same as Gallon mix.
> If you have a 1 Pint container, still use half the amount of ACV, fill shake & pour away just over half, but do this 4 times in total.
> 
> (Edit) Ok, posted near enough same time as you found gallon jug lol



Thanks, Quazar. As I only have one pigeon, this is great information for future use : )


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Jaye. If he's NOT continuing to improve in a day or so, I am going to take him to the vet : )


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> I will see if I can get him to take the pills I have on hand now. So it will be 1/2 half tablet of Divet and one full tablet of Metronidazolum once a day, correct? I started him on 1/2 tab per day of Divet on Saturday Night, so that will be done on Friday. The Metronidazolum is instructing the dose as 1 tablet per day for 3 to 5 days, so I guess if I went 5 days then I'd end on Sunday with those. Is that OK?


The bird's name in the video was Blackie, I believe, and the video was made by one of our members here, Feefo (Cynthia), it really is an invaluable clip.

You could give 1/4 pill in the morning and 1/4 pill at night of the Divet, as it will make the size smaller. Since the Metronidazole is being used more for possible anaerobic infection issues and not canker issues (although it would address this as well), we are probably going to be extending his treatment course to a few weeks, but we may adjust the dose down a bit at the 5 day mark, as 60mg q24h, is higher than I myself would use for an extended course of treatment (but weight is really the determining factor, that's why getting an accurate weight is important).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi M-P-M,



Just break a Tablet over t sharp edge of anything, break into half...break each Half into half, you then have four small pieces.


Have him on your Lap, open his Beak, examine his Throat and see if there is any debris or lesions to be seen.


If not, simply put one little fourth of a Tablet into his Throat, and let him swallow, then do the next little piece, and so on, like that.


It is very easy and works well.


ACV, if you want to only make up a Quart, just use a little less than one Tablespoon worth.


Or, use Three Tablespoons worth to a Quart of Water, and mark the Bottle "4X", and only use THAT concentration then, as one fourth of a Cup full, adding three fourths of a Cup full of Water to his drinking Cup.



If you do not have familiarity with Tube Feeding, then you could with-hold his Water over night, and, have him simply rink is Medistatin from a Shot Glass, this holding a preperation of a half-day's dose.


And repeat again in 12 hours or so...with-holding his Water for a few hours in preperation for him to drink again.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Dobato said:


> The bird's name in the video was Blackie, I believe, and the video was made by one of our members here, Feefo (Cynthia), it really is an invaluable clip.
> 
> You could give 1/4 pill in the morning and 1/4 pill at night of the Divet, as it will make the size smaller. Since the Metronidazole is being used more for possible anaerobic infection issues and not canker issues (although it would address this as well), we are probably going to be extending his treatment course to a few weeks, but we may adjust the dose down a bit at the 5 day mark, as 60mg q24h, is higher than I myself would use for an extended course of treatment (but weight is really the determining factor, that's why getting an accurate weight is important).
> 
> Karyn


Thanks, Karyn. I can do the 1/4 Divet twice a day. So you think a full tablet of Metronidazole for 5 days will be OK for him to start? I can see if I can get a scale from the kitchen store tomorrow. 

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks, Phil. 

I think the breaking of the tablets is a wonderful idea. I've just got to get somewhere in the house where there isn't a cat or a dog eyeing the bird in my lap, especially as I try to hold him, crank open his mouth, and do get these pills down him while he bites the heck out of me before I can get his beak between my fingers : ). He LOVES to get me in the skin where the thumb connects to the hand : )


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Thanks, Karyn. I can do the 1/4 Divet twice a day. So you think a full tablet of Metronidazole for 5 days will be OK for him to start? I can see if I can get a scale from the kitchen store tomorrow.
> 
> Tracey


Tracey, it should be fine, you can also break these in half and give him half in the morning (30mg) and the other half 12 hours later. You can give it at the same time as the Divet.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Karyn. So I'll do 1/4 Divet, 1/2 Metronidazole twice a day. Not sure what the dose is for the Medistatin yet, but would you suggest breaking that tablet up and giving it at the same time as the other two, twice a day?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Thanks Karyn. So I'll do 1/4 Divet, 1/2 Metronidazole twice a day. Not sure what the dose is for the Medistatin yet, but would you suggest breaking that tablet up and giving it at the same time as the other two, twice a day?




If your Metronidazole Tablets are 60 mG, then one Tablet-a-day is fine for someone his size...whether half a Tablet every twelve hours, or all at once.



Have you examined his Throat deeply under a good bright Light? To see if any visible debris or lesions are present?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Medistatin is for treating Candida/Yeast related infections/infestations in the upper mid or lower GI.


Metrondazole is for treating Canker or various other things, Giardia, and or anaerobe related infections.


Yeast or Candida infections often accompany Canker and or Canker with Bacterial troubles, as your igeon appears to have.


Medistatin does not tax or bother their system, and is sometimes wise to include in a regimen for this sort of syndrome, or other syndromes also.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Thanks Karyn. So I'll do 1/4 Divet, 1/2 Metronidazole twice a day. Not sure what the dose is for the Medistatin yet, but would you suggest breaking that tablet up and giving it at the same time as the other two, twice a day?


Tracey, the Medistatin is going to come in powdered form. If you don't have a any already, pick up a few 1cc syringes (the kind without the needle) and we'll mix up a concentrated suspension where you will just have to give a very small amount to give Mr. Pidge his dose. It will be given twice a day and I would give it a few hours before, or after the other meds.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Pill fiasco*



Dobato said:


> Tracey, the Medistatin is going to come in powdered form. If you don't have a any already, pick up a few 1cc syringes (the kind without the needle) and we'll mix up a concentrated suspension where you will just have to give a very small amount to give Mr. Pidge his dose. It will be given twice a day and I would give it a few hours before, or after the other meds.
> 
> Karyn


Thanks, Karyn. I have plenty of those tiny syringes from his last bout at the vet, so no problem. I'll let you know when I get the Medistatin. Hopefully tomorrow.

He seems to be holding his own, although not coming down on his perch where the water/vinegar mixture is as much as usual. I put 1 tablespoon to that gallon, but have only noticed him drinking once, and have not seen him in the small seeds. He still wants rice nonstop though--just not sure how much I should feed him of that, as it makes his poops really squishy. Wondering if I should put some water/cider down his throat with a syringe? 

I am getting the pills whole down him, quite a fiasco, even with 2 people doing it! I had no idea he could whip his head around like an owl, and all I can say is that he sure is no Blackie on Youtube : )

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I had to give some Pills to a Chicken awhile back...I would say, for me, ( and for the Chicken, ) that was difficult. The Chicken did not want the Pills, and she was amazingly strong and resistive and upset about it. 



Pigeon wise, what I do is this - 



I hold the Pigeon in my palms, both hands, so they are in a normal attitude, and being held Eye to Eye with me, maybe a foot from my face.

I explain how they know they are sick, and how I intend to do some things to help this.


I then have the Pigeon stand on my Lap, on a Towel.


My left Hand is lightly over their Back, right hand lightly over their Head.

I have the Pill or Tablet ready and sitting on the Towel or on the Table edge.


I take part of the Pill or Tablet, in my right hand, and bring it up to my mouth and pretend to eat it, so the Pigeon sees this.

I hold it out for them to eat, and I explain to them it is 'like-a-seed' but different, and they need to eat it since it will help them get well.


I maybe lightly tap it against the tip of their Beak.

I repeat this maybe a few times...me pretendng to eat it, then offering it to them.


Some, will then eat it volentarily, by just pecking it or by reaching out and grabbing it with their Beak, and swallowing.

Others do not do this, or they are upset or distracted and not giving me their attention, so I then have to open their Beak.

Usually I can open their Beak easily, though it takes a few tries for them to acquiese or for us to co-ordinate it so they are not resisting.

If need be, we do the 'Burrito Bird' spigotted behind my knees, and this then makes it all a lot simpler for me to open their Beak if nothing else was working, and put in the Pill/Tablet portions.



Trying to use force and handling them in ways they do not like, will guarentee resistence or resentment.


The 'Burrito Bird', when done right, does not seem to bother them, or bothers them infinitely less than being manhandled, especially where one person is holding the Bird in a way the Bird does not want to be held, and another is trying to pry the Beak open, they will hate this with a Capital "H" and resist for all they are worth.


Just try having him on a folded Towel, on your Lap as you sit.

Have some of the Rice or small seeds and peck at those with your crook'd index finger, like it is a light social food sharing time together.Then introduce the Tablet part, pretend to eat it, make some sounds of satisfaction or pleasure, and offer it to him to try.

If he does not want it, ask him if you may open his Beak, and just try a few gentle Beak openings to see if you can get it. If that works, then it will be easy to open his Beak in that context, and put in the little Tablet part.
I find they are usually a little confused about someone wanting to open their Beak, and, just a little lead ins and some rehersals and friendly context, makes a world of difference for them to go along with it.


Sudden, discontinous, invasive man-handlings, which make no sense to them, and which occur out of any continuity or acceptabe context, are something they will tend to resist and resent.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## hasseian_313 (Oct 31, 2009)

the bird is 17 yrs old i think he is just ageing and thats natral


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I am a great believer in sometimes a body knows what it needs, so if he is craving the Basmati rice then give him three or four teaspoon fulls, spread throughout the day, as well as his seeds of course (try not cooking the rice completely, so it's still a little al dente). Perhaps he will take some shelled sunflower hearts (raw, unsalted), safflower seeds and chopped up raw Spanish peanuts as well right now.

Keep an eye on his water consumption, as on rare occasions some birds will not like ACV water at all, even at low concentrations, so if you feel his water consumption is way down, provide him just plain water, as the Medistatin will soon deal with yeast issues.

Please follow Phil's advice on "pilling", make sure it goes right to the back of his throat, as then they will swallow right away and usually do not try and shake it out.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



He might be craving some of the B Vitamins.


What I would do, is get any good brand of "B-complex" Capsules, and, sprinkle maybe 1/8th of one onto one area of his Rice.

See if he Goes-for-the-Gusto on eating that area, or not.


In fact, I would also suggest you get some of the sort of Sea Weed people like to eat, even the kind that comes in 'sheets' for makinf Sushi, and...


Grind some into powder in a little counter-top electric Coffee Griner, and sprinkle THAT onto one area of his Rice, and see what happens.



I am confident that indoor Pigeons do not tend to get enough natural sources of proper Molecular Iodine, this then - in my opinion - leads to a slow cascading imbalance of their Thyroid, and, of the systems subservient to it, including - utimately - their immune system.


Pigeons and Doves really Like Sea Weeds once becoming familiar or having access to them, too.



Karyn is right about the ACV-Water, some individuals, or some individuals when sick, will reject it or find it unpleasant.


I usually tube in their share of the ACV along with formula, having it added to the formula, augmenting their self-feeding/drinking, so that settles 'that' on those occasions usually, if an ill Pigeon happens to not like or wish to drink the ACV-Water.


Maybe just provide him with two Water Cups - one plain Water, one ACV-Water, and that way he can chose what he wants or likes.

He needs to stay well hydrated...one way or another!


The ACV does aid in several things however, and would usually be considered an important part of the regimen.


Wish I could make a ''How to make Tube Feeding Fun for the Bird and the poor pilgrim doing it!" Video to send out for times like this!



It really comes in handy for so many occasions.



Phi
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Along these lines also - if he has a Tapeworm, it will be located in an area of his Intestine which normally would be managing the B-Vitamin assimilation tasks, and, the Tapeworm both intercedes and impedes this, occasioning a B Vitamine shortage to the Host.


I think Coccidiosis can do a similar thing if maybe less severe.


Has he been tested or treated for those any time in the last decade or so?


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for those indepth instruction for pill popping, Phil : ) really great advice, and I will see if it works with him. I'm being really careful not to man-handle him, as I don't want to stress him any more than need be. I have been telling him that I am wanting to help him to feel better. One thing I've noticed is that once he has swallowed the first pill, he seems to do better about it, although he took the liquid in a syringe better.

He does seem to be feeling more himself to me. His cooing is a lot louder, which is was pretty low a few days ago. I also saw him in his food dish throwing around seeds, which is his regular way of eating. 

I'm still waiting on the other medicine to come in. They didn't ship it until 6pm yesterday, which is bad since I paid for 2 day air...

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, glad to hear Mr. Pidge is feeling a little better about himself. Keep track of the days and at day 5 of the Metronidazole, take the dose down to 1/4 pill twice a day (15mg every 12h) and keep him on both this and the Divet, 1/4 pill twice a day and we'll see how he's feeling after two weeks of treatment.

With the Medistatin, do this; mix 1 teaspoon, about 5 grams, (use a cooking teaspoon, not a common flatware teaspoon) of the Medistatin (scoop in don't compress and level with a sweep if a knife blade) into 5mL (1 cooking teaspoon) of pancake syrup, it will stir in quite well. Give him .25cc (this is 1/4 of 1cc, to the .25 line on a 1cc syringe), this will be 100,000iu and give this to him twice a day, few hours before or after the antibiotics. This is about 5 drops and you can give it to him a drop or two at at time to the front of his mouth and let him tongue it down. Stir or shake before drawing a dose and keep it refrigerated between use.

Keep us updated.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey, 


Glad to hear.

When we see hints of illness like this, it is best to get on it a.s.a.p, with whatever we have, and to abide the wait when need be, for various Meds to get in, just as you are doing.


Please consider the info in my Post ( Post No. 29 on Page 2 ) regarding the B-Complex ( Niacin especially, but the whole range of B-Complex for him, which may be what is is after in the Basmati Rice ) , and also Palatible Sea Weeds.


Images of to-day's fresh poops?


Images of him, himself?



Best wishes!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Karyn,

UPS just brought the Medistatin. I have real maple syrup and also molasses. Which is best?

I've had him on the Divet since last Saturday night, 1/4 twice a day, and the Metronidazole since Tuesday, 1/2 pill twice a day, so I'm double-checking again on dosing:

On Saturday should I take the Divet down to 1/4 once a day, or try to do 1/8 of a pill twice a day? 

On Sunday give Metronidazole 1/4 twice a day.

Then in between do the .25cc Medistatin twice a day a few hours before or after the antibiotics. 

I'm a little worried as I'm not seeing him eat much, and his poops have been watery and more white. Today they have more green in them, but still watery. Maybe it's all the medicines. He is still coming down his perch when I ask him, but tends to stay in his box, where it's warm from the new electric blanket on top of his cage. I have seen him drinking his regular water. I have both that and the vinegar mix available. I will see if I can get some photos of him and the poops today. I'm swamped here with work, but will post as soon as I can stop working for clients.

THANKS SO MUCH!

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...he has not been eating much for there to be as many actual fecal-poops as would normally be getting made...


Refresh my memory please...


Was he Wormed any time in the last however many years?


Waiting for the images.


You might do well to consider to accept some instruction ( which we will be happy to provide ) for Tube Feeding in order to be able to do that off and on here till he is eating alright again.


Tube Feeding is actually quite forthright and easy, once one gathers the several important points on it's practice and observances.


Easy on the Pigeon, easy on the care giver.



If interested, see if you can stop by any Home Medical Supply place, and get a couple of plain nose 10 mL Syringes...

And, a few No. 8 French, 'Silicone', Pediatric Urinary Catheters.


Lastly in this regard, any Petsmart or the likes, get a container of KayTee or Lefabers Powdered Baby Bird formula.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, use the real maple syrup, it will do just fine. Molasses can be therapeutic in nature, so we don't want to add too much to the mix.

Starting with his next dose, take the Metronidazole down to 1/4 pill twice a day, but with the Divet, they did recommend that it could be given at 1/4-1/2 a pill twice a day, I would keep him at the 1/4 pill twice a day for now. You have the instructions on the Medistatin down right.

Let's get a weight on him right away, if at all possible, as when they are in this kind of condition, real numbers work best instead of guessing/judging how things are going with him weight wise. If we do see any gradual loss of weight, we can supplement him to get his weight back up if needed.

Keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the information on tube feeding, Phil. He is drinking, but I'm not seeing him eating, though I'm not in the den all day so he could be doing it when I'm working in my office. He's not wanting the rice like he was though, so I'm going to see if I can get the supplies to tube feed him. I didn't see your note until this morning, and of course no medical supply places are open on the weekend. I'm going to check with some drug stores and go to Pet Smart, which is less than 2 miles away. The weather is really bad here, supposed to snow and rain--ugh, but heading out early to get what I can. I may have to get some other kind of tubing to do this, like for a fish tank--thinking that may work if all else fails. If possible, could you please post general directions on how to do this, or if it's been discussed in the forums before I may be able to do a search and find the info.

Tracey

PS: on the worming: probably not in the last 10 years. I have had him fecal checked within the last 6 and he was clear, although I guess he could get worms from his food, as he is not an outside bird.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the info on making a suspension, Karyn. He's taking that well. The weather has been bad here since yesterday, snow and rain, but I am going to hit a kitchen store while I'm out looking for tube feeding equipment to see if I can get a scale. 

Tracey
Asheville, NC


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, lets stop the Metronidazole for a bit and let's see if his appetite picks up, as a known side effect of this med, sometimes, is inappatence (loss of appetite). The 5 days and dose level he has been on it will have been enough to deal with canker concerns. Please continue with the Divet, 1/4 pill twice a for now and Medistatin and let's see how things go.

We really need to be monitoring his weight (Walmart also sells kitchen scales cheap) and can we get a few updated photos of his droppings.

Does Mr. Pidge ever have access to bare ground or areas were wild birds have left droppings?...if not, I am not sure worms, after all these years would be a concern, if yes, it may be something we may have to consider. He would not get worms from his food, where he is a lone bird and no other birds are contaminating food sources (or water) with their droppings, at least I have never heard of this happening.

Until we can get you organized properly with the correct tube feeding implements and instructions, the safest way to supplement him right now is with seed "popping". Get some safflower seeds/raw sunflower hearts/chopped up raw Spanish peanuts and wrap Mr. Pidge up in a towel, then start popping seeds into his mouth, to the back, like in this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow . It will take some time and is a bit tedious, but see what you can manage and try and get about 2 teaspoons full at a time into him, about 3 times a day, and of course monitor him in the interval, to see if he starts to eat a bit on his own.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Tracey, lets stop the Metronidazole for a bit and let's see if his appetite picks up, as a known side effect of this med, sometimes, is inappatence (loss of appetite). The 5 days and dose level he has been on it will have been enough to deal with canker concerns. Please continue with the Divet, 1/4 pill twice a for now and Medistatin and let's see how things go.
> 
> We really need to be monitoring his weight (Walmart also sells kitchen scales cheap) and can we get a few updated photos of his droppings.
> 
> ...


Hey Karyn,

He's never been exposed outside with other birds at all. He lives in a big parrot cage inside my house next to a window. The cage has ramps that go up to the top corner, where I made him a wooden box--I call it "The Pigeon Palace." 

So I went to the PetSmart and talked to someone who is into birds there, and ended up getting Kaytee Baby Bird Food, a 10CC feeding Syringe and the suggested silicon fish tubing that fits it. The tube is long, but the person at Petsmart was saying I could trim it to whatever you all think is a good length, so I'm ready to go on this end as far as tube feeding is concerned. 

I also went by a kitchen store and got a scale and a small cardboard box. The cardboard box weighed 143g and with Mr. Pidge the weight was 527g, so his weight is 384g. His weight when all this started in July was 346 g, so he's gained a little since then. 

Let me know about the tube feeding and I can do it here.

Thanks again so much for you all helping me with my boy bird. 

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images of todays fresh poops?


Don't get any sort of 'tubing' used for anythng else.


Has to be the right thing, or not at all.


Try the 'Seed Pop' as Karyn mentions.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Poop Photos*

I was told that this tubing is medical grade silicone--not the other kind of clear plastic. I'm going to take it out to the horse farm--the owner's wife is a nurse. She may be able to get me a catheter tube before Monday, as medical supply is not open until then : (

I just got a couple of photos, and it seems he is eating as they are looking a bit more normal to me--not so much white--actual green. The poop on the left is brand new. I also took two shots of him in his cage. I'm alone at home today, and it's hard to take shots of him on the table without help. I can do that later if needed.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, some good news. I may not have to tube feed him after all. I was working in my office for a client, and I just heard the noise of seeds being slung out of the food dish, something I haven't heard for several days. I snuck into the den, and sure enough Mr. Pidge was standing in his food dish and throwing his seeds everywhere. When he saw me peeking in, he started his regular walking around and cooing and then pecking seeds on the floor of his cage--normal behavior for him, and a very good sign that he may be feeling a bit better--like eating anyway. I'll keep an eye on him and update you all later. I feel quite relieved--I can still hear him in his cage with his seeds as I type.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Well, some good news. I may not have to tube feed him after all. I was working in my office for a client, and I just heard the noise of seeds being slung out of the food dish, something I haven't heard for several days. I snuck into the den, and sure enough Mr. Pidge was standing in his food dish and throwing his seeds everywhere. When he saw me peeking in, he started his regular walking around and cooing and then pecking seeds on the floor of his cage--normal behavior for him, and a very good sign that he may be feeling a bit better--like eating anyway. I'll keep an eye on him and update you all later. I feel quite relieved--I can still hear him in his cage with his seeds as I type.


Tracey, this is good news to hear and I a glad your picked up a scale and got him weighed, 384 is a decent weight and I don't feel quite as anxious about his weight anymore.

I agree with Phil, while there are a number of kinds of tubes and materials that people use in their feeding apparatus, if I had a choice I would only use medical catheters or stainless steel feeding needles when crop feeding or medicating. There is a link below to where I buy my tube feeding stuff from, the girl there, Chris, is very nice and helpful as well and she will get your order out fast, at least she did mine. Although in the past I used to use silicone catheters, in the last few years I have been using the stainless needles, as for me, I find I can be quicker and feel the placement better in the crop with them and they are basically a lifetime tool. 

You can order both types from here, they aren't expensive, you could even order both types if you like. With the stainless ones, order a 12g (gage) size straight. Some people like the curved, I have both and for me the straight is easier to use. If not now, there will come a point in the future where being able to feed Mr. Pidge this way may get him past an illness he may not have survived without this kind of support. It would be good if you knew you had the right tools around in advance if that times does come.

Tracey, I wouldn't mind you doing the seed pops for at least a full day and then getting a few photos of his dropping, where we know he got a decent amount of food into him and now this is the result. I really would like to see his droppings after a good day of feeding, to get a better gage as to what is really going on with them.

http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/category/1719/feeding-tubes.htm

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,


The image of to-day's poops - 


Are the Urates 'yellow-ish'?


Is there any odor if you get your Nose right up to it?


Tube-feed-for-the-future wise, just wait till Monday or Tuesday or something, and get some things at any Home Medical supply place.


Get the clear, Silicone Pediatric, Urinay Catheters, No. 8 French...and plain tip 10 mL Syringes.

These are like 80 Cents each or something, and you do not need enough to justify Postage-minimums of a Mail Order Company where POsteg may well be ten or fifteen dollars.

This will save endless hassles, having a known, compatible, and doemonstrated to be correct and practical set of items to assemble and use if needed. Left in their wrappings, they will keep indefinitely.



So, to review, what all Med-wise has he had then?

Metronidazole - 

Medistatin -

And...?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Not saying you can not obtain entirely satisfactory items Mail Order, but, if you can get them locally, I would think, may as well go make their acquaintance, get what you need, and break the ice on that, and save the Postage costs to boot.


What seems to happen so often though, is the person by whatever means, runs out and gets entirely wrong things, or insists to make-do with wrong things, ( things which will make it a lot harder fot ehm, and or harder for or dangerous for the Bird ) and, hence, my desire to prevent that sort of occurence when possible.


Before I realized that any of the ubiquitous 'Home Medical Supply' Stores had what I needed, I drove myself nuts trying to find the items Mail Order, and in many cases the prices were astronomical, and the items were not as good or as perfectly suited, as what I eventually found to be available locally anyway.


The clear Silicone Pediatric Urinary Catheters have a Spigot End which fits perfectly onto a plain nose Syringe.


Other kinds of Catheters will not and do not and will be a big hassle to try and make a way to fit them.


The exact brand ( and size ) I use, are - 


"Self Cath" 8 Fr., Leur end Pediatric


These are 10 inches long, and, one cuts the small end off ( details on how to prep this any time you like ) to make it a length which automatically allows you to gauge how far in you are when feeding or adminstering meds, etc.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, I thought he was doing better, but tonight I found regurgitated seeds in his cage. When I scooped them up in a paper towel, they were mixed with a clear mucus--there was not much of a smell to this, and the smell I really couldn't describe as it was faint--not really sour smelling. Not sure what's going on with that, but I'm actually feeling pretty overwhelmed with everything lately. 

I guess "when it rains" really is true, as I'm really missing my dog too. Maybe Mr. Pidge is also grieving her loss as they were together for almost 16 years : (

Besides the one time throw-up today, he still seems good and strong. He's still fighting when I try to pill him and his urates are white with not much of a smell. I just saw him drinking a little while ago. He seems to take the new medicine mixed with the maple syrup well. So now he's on 1/4 Divet twice a day and 5 drops of the Medatastin Suspension--spaced out and not given at the same time. He's got the water/apple cider mixture plus a second container of regular water, although I am only seeing him drink regular water. I will go on Monday and see if I can find the catheter that you all use. 

Thanks so much for helping me. It's been a hard couple of weeks here, and I'm really hoping it gets better next week : )

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I am not happy to hear about Mr. Pidge throwing up. There is something going on and we may need to get him to the vet and have swabs of his vent and crop done for culture and sensitivity. While the Divet (TMS) is quite a good drug there are just sometimes certain bacteria are not sensitive to it. I remember I had a bird that was sick and I tried a number of antibiotics I has on hand, including Baytril and TMS, with no effect. Tests at the vet showed he had a Klebsiella infection that was only sensitive to two drugs on the screen used, Chloramphenicol and Clindamycin. So we may need some help at this point with some tests to see if there is a pathogen that needs a change in meds to get rid of.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks, Karyn. Not sure why this stuff always seems to happen on the weekend...I'll give them a call first thing Monday : (

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,


How long as he been on the Medistatin?


The Metronidazole you have...is it old or been sitting a long time where Air could get to it?


Do definitely see the Vet a.s.a.p. and have him/her do a few Swabs and fast Microscope look-sees and or cultures also, as Karyn suggested.


The stuff you have been describing, is superficially the same as conditions I deal with often.


My usual recourse, is Metronidazole, Enroflaxyn, and Medistatin.


As far as I recall, I have not had any ( of this more or less syndrome ) not clear up well with this...though sometimes Worming is also called for.


But, just as Karyn relays, occasional instances of this sort of syndrome could be or have a serious Bacteria component which require quite narrow or specific Antibiotics to get cleared up, so...


Anyway, two things please - 


What all meds has he been on?


And, did you find any merit to the mentions I had made in Post No. 29 & Post 30, on Page 2?


Lastly, are his poops/urates really any better or any different now, than when all this started?




Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Thanks, Karyn. Not sure why this stuff always seems to happen on the weekend...I'll give them a call first thing Monday : (
> 
> Tracey


Yeah...I know what you mean, truly, but his weight is good, he's drinking and he is holding his own, so he should be fine until Monday. Tracey, do you have any pellets around by any chance? Is he back to being interested in Basmati?... if so, you can give him some.


Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

He ate a little Basmati today, but not like he was. I have two types of pellets: Harrison's Adult Lifetime Fine and Harrison's High Potency Fine--both those are in his food bowl along with small seeds now. Also got the Kaytee Baby Bird food today. I guess I could pop some of the pellets down him?

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> He ate a little Basmati today, but not like he was. I have two types of pellets: Harrison's Adult Lifetime Fine and Harrison's High Potency Fine--both those are in his food bowl along with small seeds now. Also got the Kaytee Baby Bird food today. I guess I could pop some of the pellets down him?
> 
> Tracey


Well, since his weight is decent and he is picking here and there, let's not harass him too much, unless he starts producing just bile droppings with no fecal solids, but if he does not mind the handling, sure you could pop a teaspoon or so at a time worth of either of the pellets into him, 4-5 times a day, to make sure he has some nourishment. I would remove all but the smaller seeds and have just them and pellets and rice right now for him (outside of what you may decide to pop into him).

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Answering in bold:*

Hi Tracey,

How long as he been on the Medistatin?

*Medistatin came in yesterday, and I started him on it in the afternoon.--he's had 3 doses approx 12 hours apart so far. *​
The Metronidazole you have...is it old or been sitting a long time where Air could get to it?

*The Metronidazole was purchased at the end of July this year. It's been in the refridgerator. The lid is really tight and it is also kept in one of those sealed plastic bags, so no air could get to it. The Divet was purchased at the same time and had never been opened until I started it a few days ago. *​
Do definitely see the Vet a.s.a.p. and have him/her do a few Swabs and fast Microscope look-sees and or cultures also, as Karyn suggested.

*Sure hoping the vet in town will do the swabs and an eyeball Microscope look, instead of tacking on all kinds of other charges. I don't really like him too much, but he's better than the other vet, at a different clinic, who charged me a fortune for Xrays that were not needed. At that time, I had just had a cat who had surgery the week before--again, "When it pours." She was seen at my regular small animal vet, who sadly do not treat birds, my cat had Xrays and the surgery and meds for under $400, so the price for the pigeon seemed really excessive to me....
*​
The stuff you have been describing, is superficially the same as conditions I deal with often.

My usual recourse, is Metronidazole, Enroflaxyn, and Medistatin.

As far as I recall, I have not had any (of this more or less syndrome) not clear up well with this...though sometimes Worming is also called for.

*He was checked for worms around 10 years ago, but had none. He's never been outside or exposed to other birds, so unless he could get them from his food or water, I think he's probably still clear for that.​*
But, just as Karyn relays, occasional instances of this sort of syndrome could be or have a serious Bacteria component which require quite narrow or specific Antibiotics to get cleared up, so...

Anyway, two things please - 

What all meds has he been on? 

*Baytril in July (from vet that charged me $300 for 2 xrays and the bottle of Baytril), Metronidazolum and Divet this week, Medistatin started yesterday.*

And, did you find any merit to the mentions I had made in Post No. 29 & Post 30, on Page 2?

*I had the Vitamin B capsules, but he went off the Basmati before I could see if he would eat it. I also did the dried seaweed, but couldn't get him to eat it on his own.​*
Lastly, are his poops/urates really any better or any different now, than when all this started?

*They have more green in them. Before it was more Urates--white, and they do not smell as strong as when all this started.​*
Thanks again for spending so much time helping me and my bird : )

Tracey

Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



Well...hmmmm...



If no recourse to a Vet for 'swabs-n-tests' were available...

I would go with the Baytril and keep on with the Medistatin.


Ideally, and please forgive me for not having been more on the ball previuosly, Baytril or Enroflaxyn, Metronidazole, and Medistatin, would have been a good combo for his symptoms.


I do not know how or why I did not get clear on that, maybe I was confused with the prior Baytril time, somehow thinking it was current along with the other meds, or maybe I was just complaisent, or I dunno.


So hmmmmmmm...

Option 1 ) Try the Baytril, and keep on with the Medistatin, see how things go.


Option 2 ) Appeal to your Vet for a Crop Swab, Fecal Float, Blood Tests even, all of which he or she can analyze or examine extempore with a Microscope and other means...and or for cultures as well ( which will entail a delay of several maybe four or five days, for the Cultures to advance enouh for sensitivity testing to be done and to show results.) 


Possibly last July, the Baytril did well for part of something...even as this time, the Metronidazole did well for part-of-something.

Together, they would possibly have taken care of the entire something.


But, whatever the something is, also seems to have allowed for a possible Yeast or Candida issue, for which the Medistatin is appropriate.



Phil
L v


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, as a third alternative to what Phil has suggested may I add this. Because Mr. Pidge has had something going on for quite sometime, which I would consider to now be chronic and he has been treated before with Baytril and now Divet (TMS) and Metronidazole. He may be a candidate for a course of treatment with Chloramphenicol, this is really quite a good anti-biotic with very good tissue penetration and it really is a true broad-spectrum antibiotic, as so very many bacteria are sensitive to it. See if you can persuade your vet to prescribe you some, or at least make sure it is one of the drugs used in any culture and sensitivity tests. I am always troubled when I see a pigeon carrying its wings down below its tail, a usual sign of some abdominal discomfort and I have never really liked the look of Mr. Pidge's droppings, so it would be good if the vet could take these things into consideration.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good idea Karyn...


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Update on Mr. Pidge*

Mr. Pidge is eating again, still drinking and actually looks better. He also ate quite a bit of Basmati rice this morning too. He seems to be improving, but I went ahead and called another recommended local Avian vet this morning. I want to get the crop and vent swabs done in case we need to change meds. 

I printed out a list of everything I have him on medication and food-wise, the dates and amounts, etc, and also your suggestions on possible other medications I will discuss with this new vet. 

I couldn't get Mr. Pidge in today, it's a Monday and they are booked solid, but I have an appointment at 10:00am tomorrow morning, or if an appt cancels today, they will call. They asked if I thought I needed to get him in somewhere else today, the other clinic that I was not satisfied with last time, and I replied, "I'd rather not go back there. Mr. Pidge is not at death's door, he's eating and drinking and on the medications that I have handy, although I would like to get the swabs done in case we need to change medications. I'd rather have an appointment with your clinic, especially since my small animal vet highly recommended the Avian Dr. there."

So, I will update you all as soon as I find out what's going on with him.

Thanks again for helping me so much during this. Really a godsend to have people with lots of Pigeon knowledge : )

Tracey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The urates heading towards that color of green is pretty bad, actually, if the picture is true-color. Sometimes, the lighting can mess you up if the picture was taken under fluorescent lighting or whatever. A flash is generally better for showing those correctly. You can get a greenish cast to the urates where the bile leaches out of the solids over some time after exiting the bird--you'll just have to tell us more about that particular picture. Anyhow, if the color in the picture is correct, it doesn't have to be fatal (ultimately) but... it ain't good. If the antibiotics that he's currently on are getting it, then fine, otherwise I'd shift him to Doxycycline and go for an extended therapy (six weeks).

By the way, it wouldn't necessarily be diagnostic to do swabs and fecals when urates are off-color in that way. That is to say that such lab results are very unlikely to provide any useful information. You're also stuck with having to factor in his relatively advanced age, by the way.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks Pidgey, for the input. His droppings have bothered me for a while now, and since he has been on a few good antibiotics and then threw up the other day, that's why I suggested some tests and a shift to Chloramphenicol, as it has such a broad range in bacteria that are sensitive to it. Since the sick bird I had was diagnosed through a crop swab,that's why I suggested swab tests. This particular bird was the reason I ended up keeping both Chloramphenicol and Clindamycin around in my medicine chest.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I was not aware of any green-tinge or tint to the Urates.


Tracey, 


If any green ot 'Olive' color tint has been seen or begins, please let us know?



Thing is, Swabs and cultures and or Microscope exam of fecals or swab-slides, would have been ideal prior to the administration of Meds, and much less ideal now.


I think an Antibiotic was needed, and I apologise this somehow was not emphacised or recommended early on.

Blood Tests might be able to show some useful things...they can get infections of the Pancreus which can make for a syndrome about like what he was having, where, secondary problems ( Canker, Candida, etc ) get going also.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> I was not aware of any green-tinge or tint to the Urates.
> 
> 
> Tracey,
> ...


Hey, Phil, can't vouch for your computer, graphics adapter or computer, but did you see the pictures on this web page:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=518054&postcount=42

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Thing is, Swabs and cultures and or Microscope exam of fecals or swab-slides, would have been ideal prior to the administration of Meds, and much less ideal now.


Phil, in most cases this is very true, but the bird I mentioned was first on Baytril, then later TMS, prior to me taking her into the vet with no improvement in condition. As a result of the bacteria infecting her, Klebsiella, not being sensitive to either, there was still bacterial growth present and they were able to make a diagnosis.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

His Urates are not green tinted. They are pure white--it must be the flash on the camera combined with the brown paper bag background. Didn't have any white paper to put down when I took those shots. I will go and put some paper towels down in his cage and take some more photos as soon as he goes.

Now I'm wondering what to do about the vet appt tomorrow, since I've had him on the meds for a while, I was also thinking that they would screw up any kind of testing. He seems way better today, ate like crazy with no vomit at all since Saturday. 

Do you all think that the Medistatin would take a couple of days before any visible improvements would show up health-wise? Right now, he is down in the bottom of his cage, cooing and doing his regular stuff...I'm wondering if I should put off going to the vet a couple of days--I don't have a bunch of extra cash right now, and I know this bill is going to probably be a couple of hundred bucks...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Hey, Phil, can't vouch for your computer, graphics adapter or computer, but did you see the pictures on this web page:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=518054&postcount=42
> 
> Pidgey




Hi Pidgey,


Yes...saw those...looked merely 
'chaulky' in areas and slightly flat and paint-like to me...no hints of green Urate wise.


Far as my Computer anyway!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> Phil, in most cases this is very true, but the bird I mentioned was first on Baytril, then later TMS, prior to me taking her into the vet with no improvement in condition. As a result of the bacteria infecting her, Klebsiella, not being sensitive to either, there was still bacterial growth present and they were able to make a diagnosis.
> 
> Karyn


Oh!


Of course...yes, I was not thinking well there.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

OK, got the white paper towels down for later poop photos. Gotta say he's feeling A LOT better, as he was attacking the towels the entire time I was arranging them in the cage bottom, his regular territorial behavior.

Thinking I may call and reschedule that appt for later tomorrow afternoon or even Wed. and see how he does...

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Now I'm wondering what to do about the vet appt tomorrow, since I've had him on the meds for a while, I was also thinking that they would screw up any kind of testing. He seems way better today, ate like crazy with no vomit at all since Saturday.



Except that as Karyn reminds - if he has a Bacteria bothering him which is not within the range of the Meds he has been on...( then it would be possible for it to show well in some tests, cultures and so on ).




> Do you all think that the Medistatin would take a couple of days before any visible improvements would show up health-wise? His down in his cage, cooing and doing his regular stuff now...I'm wondering if I should put off going to the vet a couple of days--I don't have a bunch of extra cash right now, and I know this bill is going to probably be a couple of hundred bucks...



Medistatin begins to work immediately, but, depending on how much work it has to do, and, the rate of recession of the offending Yeasts/Candida Organisms, and the healing of inflamed Tissues, the full effect takes some time to acheive, so, seeing improvement over several days would be usual, with some improvement sooner, also.



If you could try and negotiate to have ONLY some Cultures and or Blood Work done, ( Karyn would be able to outline what kind of tests would be most effecient or useful for this ) from some Crop Swabs and or other extracts, and, explain the idea of there maybe being a Bacterial issue resistent to the list of Meds he has been on...the Vet might find a way to allow the Bill to be fairly minimally oriented to the Tests themselves and or Cultures, and let you slide on the obligatory exam part, even though a sort of superficial exam would be part of what the Vet does in obtaining the materials for the tests.


Given you had been through this before where the Vet ( different Vet? ) did not really quite solve the matter, this Vet ought to be able to understand some over view and allow a little kindness to you and your Bird.


You could try anyway, and see.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, if you think he is doing better and money is a bit tight right now, maybe we can take it on a day to day basis with him and if you feel he is in anyway not continuing his improvement or even starts to look little worse, you can book him right back in. I wouldn't mind you ordering in the some Doxycycline, as Pidgey suggested trying, since Chloramphenicol, is a much hard med to get without a prescription and we can always try a change in meds for him.

http://www.amazon.com/Biotic-Doxycycline-Hyclate-100mg-Capsules/dp/B000O5JWQY/ref=pd_sim_k_1

In the above link if you find something else on Amazon for $4.00 shipping will be free, since the order will be over $25.00.

Phil, when my vet does swabs, he uses a sealed package that has a swab inside a sealed tube (that has a culture medium in it), he does the swab, it goes right back in the tube and he sends it out to the lab with instructions to "culture all".

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Pooped, but missed the dang white paper towels...*

Hey Phil and Karyn,

Well, he just pooped as I was trying to get the white paper towels situated in his cage--of course he totally did not hit the white paper, but I'm sending you the photo anyway. It's still a bit loose, he has eaten A LOT of basmati today, but it looks more normal to me than it did yesterday. Again, the Urates are white to the eye. Camera may be a bit off in the cage and brown paper behind.

Also, this is another Avian vet that my small animal vets recommended after I told them about the fiasco in July. haven't been there before, so I'm sure there will be new patient exams etc, etc, etc.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Comparing poops*

This is a photo to compare his poops now to the ones in August shown on this post. In this photo, he was primarily eating only the pelleted foods:


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

OK, it's getting really close to 5:00 here, so I went ahead and canceled the appointment for Mr. Pidge at the new vet for tomorrow morning. 

At this point, instead of constantly being in his box, like he's been since this started on Thursday, he is out in his cage, sitting on his ramps cooing and eating well. The person at the clinic said to feel free to call if I need to reschedule, and they will get him in as soon as they can. 

I will keep an eye on him this evening and tomorrow and see how he does. I will also send in some poops on white paper towels when those happen. I am seriously wondering if the Medistatin is starting to really kick in now, as this is a big change just from last night. 

So how long can I keep him on the Medistatin? Started that on Friday night.

ALSO, how long can I keep him on Divet? I started that on November 2 at 1/4 pill twice a day.

Tracey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,


I copy on the several immediatly prior posts and their mentions.

Makes sense to me to just go with the flow on a day by day thing and see how things go.


I do think he needs to be on an Antibiotic definitely...whether this is Doxy, Baytril or something else.


Poops as you note - are no better now than they were in August.


Do the Medistatin for five or six days.


Ditto for the 'DIVET'.


He may well be feeling a lot better for the Medistatin dealing with it's ballywick.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In case it hasn't been mentioned (forgive me--I haven't read the entire thread), Medistatin (which is a trade name for a Nystatin powder) isn't absorbed through the gut. That it to say that it's not a systemic medicine--you can use it for the rest of his life if you wanted to. All it does is stop fungal growth on contact. Fungal overgrowth usually occurs because of the lack of something else like the peroxides given off by "good bacteria" or the immune system not working properly. Now, a bird can certainly get a fungal overgrowth because of tainted feed due to it having been wet or grain that came from the field with a bunch of fungi growing in it. Some of those can be horribly bad. But you're usually going to see more than one individual affected in a loft when that's the case.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You know, I have wondered about Peroxide as an oral medicine for aiding Crop infections or related.


Anyway, I go through a lot of Medistatin here with the various things going on.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, even in August I was not crazy about Mr. Pidge's droppings and although I hate to judge droppings when a bird is on a number of meds, his dropping are very far from where I would like to see them.

I would keep him on the Divet for at least a week, order the Doxycycline in and switch him to that for an extended course of treatment (I will help you with dosing instructions), perhaps as long as 4-5 weeks. There are a few different kinds of infections that need a long course of AB treatment to clear up. I would keep him on the Medistatin once a day while on the Doxycycline to address any possibilities of a yeast issue developing, which can happened on longer courses of treatment with drugs in the tetracycline family. 

Something is amiss with Mr. Pidge and we can try a few approaches, as long as his condition holds the same or continues to improve, then make a decisions about involving your vet based on this.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Dobato said:


> since Chloramphenicol, is a much hard med to get without a prescription and we can always try a change in meds for him.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Biotic-Doxycycline-Hyclate-100mg-Capsules/dp/B000O5JWQY/ref=pd_sim_k_1
> 
> In the above link if you find something else on Amazon for $4.00 shipping will be free, since the order will be over $25.00.


Hey Karyn,

I ordered the medication you suggested from Amazon. I had it shipped 2 days, so should get it by Wednesday. Please let me know about how much I should give him of this, and also if I should continue the 1/4 X 2 daily Divet and the Medistatin.

THANKS : )

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Hey Karyn,
> 
> I ordered the medication you suggested from Amazon. I had it shipped 2 days, so should get it by Wednesday. Please let me know about how much I should give him of this, and also if I should continue the 1/4 X 2 daily Divet and the Medistatin.
> 
> ...


Tracey, good stuff! Yes, keep him on the Divet, and Medistatin until the Doxycycline arrives and we'll switch him over to the Doxy and continue with the Medistatin. I'll get some instructions up for you for the Doxy capsules in the next day, before they arrive, so in case I am not around, you'll be able to start right away.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Tracey, good stuff! Yes, keep him on the Divet, and Medistatin until the Doxycycline arrives and we'll switch him over to the Doxy and continue with the Medistatin. I'll get some instructions up for you for the Doxy capsules in the next day, before they arrive, so in case I am not around, you'll be able to start right away.
> 
> Karyn


THANKS KARYN! The new meds should be here on Wed--not a moment too soon. Along with the worry concerning Mr. Pidge, I have a lot going on here right now. 

I run a support group for women that deals with lots of things, including abuse issues, and some of the members wrote and nominated me for a hero award. The Oprah Show called last night, and it seems that I will be flying to Chicago next Tuesday. I will leave Asheville at 5:00am, get to Chicago at 8:30, be at the studio at noon, and fly out the next morning--a whirlwind trip fueled by the need to medicate Mr. Pidge : ) 

I want to get him on the antibiotics ASAP, so instructions now will be great. From what I read about Doxycycline, you can put it in the drinking water, but I'm wondering if we can use a suspension to make sure he get this med? 

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, congratulations on your nomination for the Hero Award, it's always gratifying we one of our unsung hero's receives the recognition they deserve for their hard, sometimes thankless, work they put into our communities over the years. You must let us know how things go and if you are on the show and what day it will air.

Here are the instructions for the Doxycycline:

The bottle will have capsules in it and each capsule will contain 100mg of Doxycycline. Open up 5 capsules and dump the contents into a shot glass. Now add 10mL (2 cooking teaspoons, make sure it is a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware type) of pancake syrup and stir it all together well, let sit, covered for 1/2h, to let the water in the syrup help dissolve the med and stir well once again and it's ready for use. You have a 5% Doxycycline suspension (50mg/mL) and you will give Mr. Pidge 0.15cc/mL (7.5mg, about 3 drops) twice a day of the Doxy. We will keep Mr. Pidge on this for 4 weeks (and perhaps as long as 6 weeks) and reassess, unless during treatment you feel for any reason he needs reassessed earlier.

Karyn


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for those instructions on making that suspension for the Doxycycline, Karyn.

Mr. Pidge really does seem better. He wanted some rice, so I gave him a bit warmed up in the toaster oven, and then he jumped down and ate his seed/pellet mix. He's still drinking good too. Poops are looking a little better, not so loose. 

I'm really not sure which medicine is helping him. I've only got him on the Divet and the Medistatin now, and I'm thinking it may be the Medistatin--or maybe a combo of everything--not sure, but I even noticed him carrying one wing normally for a while today. 

This is such a relief to me, because I sure didn't want to go to Chicago with him being really sick, and I'm thinking by this time next week, he will be way better. Shoot, by this time next week, I will be at the Oprah Show : ) I think that is going to be more like a Heroes show, and there will be lots of us who have been nominated in the audience, but it still will be fun to see Oprah before she retires. 

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I have always been one of those, if it ain't broke, don't fix it kind if people, since Mr. Pidge is responding so well to the combo he is now on, we may just want to keep him on them for a while longer, before making a switch over to the Doxycycline. I going to PM Pidgey, to have a look in again on this thread and see what he thinks, I know Phil is involved in the thread, so let's see what he thinks as well.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes, the two Meds he is on now are addressing their own areas of Work/remediation.

The Antibiotic will also, soon as it can be started.

It is often the case that multiple Medicines are needed.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And what I told Karyn in PM was:

"Well, I was basing that recommendation on whether or not the urates turned out to be greenish or not. If not, then I don't know that I would. If the bird's still suffering from something, then I'd probably give it a shot seeing as how he's had plenty of other antibiotics in different families. I guess we wait and see on how the poops go."

Well... poops, wing drooping and whatever other symptoms you could name, that is. Fact is, birds don't have as many nerve channels as we do and the upshot is that they can actually have something bad going on inside that will take them out fairly quickly that would put us down in bed sicker'n dogs at a much earlier stage of infection. That said, sometimes you're better off for long-term survival with them to shoot first (medicate six ways from Sunday) and ask questions later. Generally, the longest-lived pigeons are in homer lofts where they medicate on a rather regular basis. Yep, that goes against the grain on me, too, but statistically that seems to be the case.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I know for me here, or rather, for the Birds I get in, 'Enroflaxyn' is a frequent resort.

Now and then, my sort of 'Water Witching' mode says "Doxycycline".

If I guess wrong, I usually see little or no improvement, or worse.


If I guess right, I see improvement sometimes within hours.


If Olive Drab or 'Zink Chromate' color Urates, my experience has been the Pigeon will usually be dead within a day or less.


The combo I hit on which saves them, so far, is Doxy, Divet, and Metronidazole, and Scotch-n-Water for drinking...and maybe Medistatin if called for, also.

Prior to hitting on that combo, I lost every one who had that symptom.

Since starting it, I have not lost any.


Electing the approximately 'right' antibiotic ( or combination of Medicines, however it is they may synergistically operate ) is sometimes crucial, of course, where, a not quite right Antibiotic can buy time or stall the decline or slow it's rate, the right one is usually an unambiguous result with signs of improvement occuring quickly ( ie: within a day or two if not sooner, depending on one's perspecuity and or the rate of response the Bird may show ).


My sense with this Pigeon is that he definitely would benifit from an Antibiotic, though I was not feeling certain that I could say which one.


If it were me, I would have used Enroflaxyn, Metronidazole, and Divet...and seen how that goes.


Doxy would be a good election also, to see how that goes.


If one or the other does not seem entirely satisfactory, one can always go over to the other, and see how it does.


Or, something yet again else can be elected.


Of course...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> ...and Scotch-n-Water for drinking...


That particular "medication" goes in you and not in the pigeon, right?

For de-stressing?

(for those of you that don't know, rehabbing can be VERY stressful with the worst cases)

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lol...


Pigeons and Doves ( and Sparrows, and Chickens, and probably just about everyone else also ) usually LOVE Scotch-n-Water, or Bourbon and Water.


The Aves seem to have about the same tolerance as a regular person, or human child, say...far as mL/k.



I think it allows some meds to work better, too, as well as dialating Vascularities for better assimilation/reach...also relaxes them a little if feeling anxious or worried or unsure.

Helps their little Livers and Kidneys.


I actually have used a good Bourbon the last few times..."Woodford Reserve", Kentucky Straight Burbon Whiskey.

It is well regarded by Pigeons, Doves, Chickens, Sparrows, and by me too.


My last Quart Bottle lasted a year and a half...just to give you some idea of how fast we go through it!


It is way YUMMY though, so if you get some, watch out!

Ethyl Alcohol is also the formal or clinical antidote for Glycol Poisoning, as in occasions of a Bird having drank spilled 'Anti Freeze' for example...their system will elect to metabolioze and deal with the Alcohol, and take it's time trying to break down the Glycol, which then saves them from fatality.

Were their system to be trying to address the Glycol first or primarily, it would make crystals in their Kidneys, and end up killing them.



Phil
Lv


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

So I'm deducing from what you all are saying that I should go ahead and use the suspension Karyn advised for the Doxycycline? I mean, I could try it for a couple of days and see how it goes, because I too believe he may need to be on a round of antibiotic. When this went on a few months back, the Baytril did seem to help, but obviously did not cure the problem.

If I do the Doxycycline should I also keep him on 1/4 Divet 2 X daily and the Medistatin .25cc, 5 drops 2 X daily suspension?

Tracey
Who doesn't drink, but thinking I may start after these last few weeks ; ) 
(Just kidding)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, Pidgey was a little more clear in his PM to me and thinks we should be quite aggressive with our treatment. When the Doxycycline comes we will add it to his treatment. There are Aureomycin + Sulmet combo meds out there (basically a sulfa and tetracycline combined) so this will be a version of this combination. 

So he will be getting 1/4 tablet of Divet twice a day, 0.15cc of Doxycycline twice a day and 0.25cc Medistatin twice a day at least for the next week to 10 days and we'll see how things go for him. We want him on the Doxycycline for 4-6 weeks and we can decide in a while whether to continue the combo or drop the Divet and just use the Doxy and Medistatin to finish with.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One thing which occurs to me, as having been a little ambiguous - 

Is when he was treated with the Baytril last June ( was it June? ) he possibly was not treated for a low, chronic, if none the less meaningful Canker or other woes, hence, the Baytril may well have appeared to help some of it, but, not all of it.

Or, his infection was only partially dealt with by Baytril, and, some other Antibiotic would have been better or more positive and thorough.


Since this is unknown, the legacy or continuation or re-emergence, or entirely new issues ( how to tell which? ) are then not so easy to compare to whatever was going on before, unless we assume he was not quite rid of last June's troubles, and, that his immune system was doing fairly well, but, not quite well enough, to finish things on it's own.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Although it's unlikely that it's Chlamydophila (the new name for a family of diseases that used to be called Chlamydiosis, Ornithosis or Psittacosis), that is one disease that the symptoms can be reduced with Baytril, but you can't actually clear the disease--you have to use Doxycycline for that one, and for an extended period.

Pidgey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*2 Questions for Karyn*



Dobato said:


> Here are the instructions for the Doxycycline:
> 
> The bottle will have capsules in it and each capsule will contain 100mg of Doxycycline. Open up 5 capsules and dump the contents into a shot glass. Now add 10mL (2 cooking teaspoons, make sure it is a cooking teaspoon and not a common flatware type) of pancake syrup and stir it all together well, let sit, covered for 1/2h, to let the water in the syrup help dissolve the med and stir well once again and it's ready for use. You have a 5% Doxycycline suspension (50mg/mL) and you will give Mr. Pidge 0.15cc/mL (7.5mg, about 3 drops) twice a day of the Doxy. We will keep Mr. Pidge on this for 4 weeks (and perhaps as long as 6 weeks) and reassess, unless during treatment you feel for any reason he needs reassessed earlier.
> 
> Karyn


Hey Karyn,

I got the Doxycycline this evening. Just mixed up the suspension--seemed like a lot of powder from those 5 caps in the two cooking teaspoons of syrup, but did it like you said, and I will give him 0.15cc/mL 2X day.

So now a couple of questions:

Since everything is twice a day, do I need to space them out, like Divet and Medistatin together and then Doxycycline a few hours later? Or can they all go together?

For the Doxycycline should the suspension and the capsules be stored in the refrigerator? The bottle says "Store in a cool dry place" which thinking a refrigerator may not be dry, so wasn't sure about that.

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*For Phil, Karyn and Pidgey question on parrot grit*



pdpbison said:


> One thing which occurs to me, as having been a little ambiguous -
> 
> Is when he was treated with the Baytril last June ( was it June? ) he possibly was not treated for a low, chronic, if none the less meaningful Canker or other woes, hence, the Baytril may well have appeared to help some of it, but, not all of it.
> 
> ...


It was the end of July when all this started, and he actually had blood in his poops at that time. It was very runny and bloody. The X-rays showed some kind of big infection--clouded looking throughout the abdomen. The young vet had no idea what it was, refused to do the swabs, put him on Baytril for 10 days, and charged me $300.00....His problem did seem to clear up, but his wings were still down--which worried me, though he was not showing any other signs until this started again.

One thing that has been ongoing for several years is that he does not tolerate grit very well. If he gets too much grit he bleeds really badly. I was told to take him off grit completely and only give him smaller seeds and pellets, but I keep wondering if maybe I should give him a couple of grains of the larger parrot grit? What do you all think?

Again, thanks so much for all of you for helping me with this situation. 

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Pidgey. I've got to say that I'm really impressed by the knowledge you all have exhibited on this thread. Really amazing to actually have communication with others who love pigeons and doves--as most people look at me like I'm crazy when I mention I have one living in my house : )


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> Hey Karyn,
> 
> I got the Doxycycline this evening. Just mixed up the suspension--seemed like a lot of powder from those 5 caps in the two cooking teaspoons of syrup, but did it like you said, and I will give him 0.15cc/mL 2X day.
> 
> ...


Tracey, if you find the suspension is too thick, please add two more teaspoons of syrup and dose Mr. Pidge at 0.30cc twice a day , instead of 0.15, this will work out to be the same dose of Doxycycline. Store the capsules in a cabinet in your house that is cool and does not get humid in any way, and the mixed suspension in the refrigerator between use (stir well before drawing a dose).

You can give the Divet and Doxy at the same time and I think I mentioned before, I would gibe the Medistatin 2h before or 2h after the antibiotics and you should be good. I would hold of right now with adding anything more into the mix, like giving him some grit, we can decide on this later, as right now things are going not too bad.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> It was the end of July when all this started, and he actually had blood in his poops at that time. It was very runny and bloody. The X-rays showed some kind of big infection--clouded looking throughout the abdomen. The young vet had no idea what it was, refused to do the swabs, put him on Baytril for 10 days, and charged me $300.00....His problem did seem to clear up, but his wings were still down--which worried me, though he was not showing any other signs until this started again.



Hi Tracey,


There are more than one kind of infection, or, condition, which can cause Blood appearing in the poops.

I wish the Vet would have done some tests to see what Bacteria was the suspect.




> One thing that has been ongoing for several years is that he does not tolerate grit very well. If he gets too much grit he bleeds really badly. I was told to take him off grit completely and only give him smaller seeds and pellets, but I keep wondering if maybe I should give him a couple of grains of the larger parrot grit? What do you all think?
> 
> Again, thanks so much for all of you for helping me with this situation.
> 
> Tracey




This is odd...


Grit, of any kind, would be ground into a Slurry, along with the hydrated Seeds of course, against which it is endlessly pressed, in the action/function of the Gizzard.


So, unless the Gizzard is infected or damaged somehow, to either be bleeding itself, or, to pass along items not ground into a Slurry, there would be no mechanical abrasions possible for the Intestines, from actual pieces of Grit or Oyster Shell.

Nor should the Intestines feel bothered anyway, were actual pieces of Grit to pass into them, where, their normal, resillient, elastic and tough nature, would simply move the mildly offending pieces of Grit along, and, expell them at the end without incident.


So, either there was some sort of low grade infection of the Gizzard AND the intestines, or, an infection/enteritis of the ( walls, linings of the ) Intestines.


I do not know if there is an enteritis which could be worsened by Calcium related increases in the diet, to cause bleeding because of it, but, this might be a possibility.


What kind of Grit was this, exactly?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

His first vet told me to use Kaytee High Calcium Grit, the small kind, but then someone else said that the smaller grit could be what was causing the problems--like sandpaper to the lining of the intestines. That's why I was wondering about the larger grit you can buy for parrots. 

It's the only thing that he's had an issue with for several years, so it made me wonder if part of the problem he is having now digestion-wise is because he doesn't get any grit at all--per another vet's advice...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, I would advise instead of getting something that is designed for parrots, you buy grit designed instead for pigeons, here is a link to a decent brand. Still would hold off giving him any while we work on getting his GI issues sorted out, but if you are going to buy some to keep on hand, get pigeon grit.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-1059/GRIT-WITH-REDSTONE-2.5kg/Detail.bok

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I do not believe his present issues would have resulted from too little Grit, or from no Grit over the last several Months.


If his Gizzard is working properly, no mechanically capable 'grains' or shapes of Grit would ever make it to his Intestines - the Gizzard would grind everything against itself into a fine Slurry, and it is the Slurry which passes then on to the Intestines.


If he had X-Rays back in June, and, had there been a foreign Metallic item in his Gizzard, it would have been conspicuous in the X-Ray.


I would say his present issues derive probably and basally from Nutritional deficits over time, to where, in-effect, his Immune System was not managing well enough, and, one or more ( more I suspect ) low-grade opportunistic illnesses/infestations/infections or infection-related problems began to gain ground, arising from normal background flora/fauna not being held in balance or check...or, acquired however so.


When you were seeing Blood in the poops, was it vividly 'Red'? Somewhat Reddish? Dark? Syrupy Black? Tar like?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*For Phil and Karyn*



pdpbison said:


> When you were seeing Blood in the poops, was it vividly 'Red'? Somewhat Reddish? Dark? Syrupy Black? Tar like?
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Hey Phil,

They were red--like fresh blood. I'll see if I can find those photos. They were on the thread from August, but then I had to delete some of the old photos from my account so that I could post the recent ones, so those are now gone.

One thing, with the addition of the Doxycycline, he is off his feed again. He's eating some, but not as much as he was before I started it. I'm going to go and get the catheter to do some tube feeding with him--I already have the Kaytee baby bird formula I bought last week. I'd really appreciate some instructions on how to do this, as I'm thinking he may need a bit more nourishment than what he's getting.

I've got to fly out to Chicago on Tuesday morning. I will be gone until Wed afternoon. I don't have anyone who can medicate him during that time, so I will need to put the Doxycycline in his water for that 24 hour period--I'm hoping he drinks it...

Thanks again for helping me with this. I'm going to see if I can get a weight on him in a little bit. I'll let you know what that is.

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, Doxycycline is another med that can affect appetite, and this could be more pronounced in a bird that is already a little finicky. This effect sometimes passes in a few days, once the body has time to adjust, so his appetite just may pick up, make sure you put out lots of treats. 

The water dosing amount for Doxycycline is 200mg/L, meaning you would dissolve 2 capsules (100mgx2) into 1 liter of water. I would stop the oral Doxycycline today and start him on the water medicated with the Doxycycline to make sure he will accept it and is drinking it well before leaving town, as we don't want you leaving and Mr. Pidge rejecting the medicated water without prior notice. 

Also, with the tube feeding, Phil is very good at giving instructions for this so I will let him guide you with this. There are some risks involved with tube feeding you should be aware of, the main one is food aspiration, where some of the liquid food accidentally gets into a bird's respiratory system, where it can cause a condition called aspiration pneumonia, which is not good. You may want to do a few practice runs with just some plain warm water, about 5mL, to get a feel of getting the tube down the esophagus and into the crop right and then administering the contents of the syringe. If by any small chance things did not go quite right (done right odds are very small on this happening), a little aspiration of plain water will not be as problematic as food.

Have fun on Tuesday, well done!

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I think I've heard that Doxycycline can be a little hard on the stomach. I remember taking one antibiotic myself years ago for a persistent sore throat (I was working a lot outside in the winter every day) that they explicitly said needed to be taken with food. After about three meals, I neither wanted to take that stuff anymore (as in: Never Again For The Rest of My Life) nor did I want to eat. Ever again. Had to suffer through ten full days, three meals each. That was one of those "the cure is worse than the disease" things.

Afterwards, life WAS better but I'm still not sure if I would have done it again had it been necessary.

Pidgey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Karyn and Phil*



Dobato said:


> Tracey, Doxycycline is another med that can affect appetite, and this could be more pronounced in a bird that is already a little finicky. This effect sometimes passes in a few days, once the body has time to adjust, so his appetite just may pick up, make sure you put out lots of treats.
> 
> The water dosing amount for Doxycycline is 200mg/L, meaning you would dissolve 2 capsules (100mgx2) into 1 liter of water. I would stop the oral Doxycycline today and start him on the water medicated with the Doxycycline to make sure he will accept it and is drinking it well before leaving town, as we don't want you leaving and Mr. Pidge rejecting the medicated water without prior notice.
> 
> ...


Hey Karyn and Phil,

Actually, he is eating again today--so far, more than yesterday, so maybe I won't try the tube feeding at this point. He was really off his food yesterday, which is why I was asking about tube feeding. I sure don't want to go a whole weekend without the proper equipment in case I need to do this. I am going to run out and get the catheter and syringes--just in case I need them--and Phil, I'll let you know if I need to do this. Hopefully, I won't. I sure don't want aspiration problems on top of everything going on right now. 

I wish the Oprah taping wasn't this week, but I sure can't pass this once in a lifetime opportunity either. I would take him to the vet and let him stay over night if I thought he was really bad, but that would stress him even more, and he seems to be doing pretty good this morning. 

Thanks for the info on the water dosing amount for Doxycycline, Karyn. I already gave him the suspension this morning, so guess I'll have to wait 12 hours before I put the meds in his water. I'll keep an eye on that and mark his water container to make sure he's drinking. I put a rubber band around the water level when I fill it, and then I watch to make sure the water is dropping from where the rubber band is.

Tracey


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

No luck on catheters in Asheville. I did find some online, but they are $60 a piece for the pediatrics, and for the adults they are over $300.00 for a box of 10? Check them out here:
http://www.allegromedical.com/browse/browseProducts.do?searchPhrase=pediatric+urinary+catheter


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, just so you know, there is nothing written in stone here. If needed we can do a few things, just suspended the Doxycycline for a few days and leave him on the Divet and Medistatin until you return, since he was doing well on these alone. We can just cut can the Doxy to once a day to get him adjusted, better at night, than as a morning dose, that may tend to throw him off his food through the day, we can also do this when you get back. I want you leaving him, knowing he is doing well, and not having your mind too much in two places, if it can be helped, he has been feeling off for a good period of time and it all does not have to be solved before you leave.

Get the right implements you need in, best to have them tucked away in a drawer if needed, but as you mention he is eating better today and we can modify things a bit, until you get back.

Tracey go to the link I posted earlier, and get them from Chris at the squirrel place.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mr-Pidges-Mom said:


> No luck on catheters in Asheville. I did find some online, but they are $60 a piece for the pediatrics, and for the adults they are over $300.00 for a box of 10? Check them out here:
> http://www.allegromedical.com/browse/browseProducts.do?searchPhrase=pediatric+urinary+catheter



Hi Tracey,


Just check locally for Home Medical supply places, there will be a few in your area.


Plain Nose, 10 mL Syringe - should be like 60 to 80 Cents.

Silicone, Pediatric, Urinary Catheter, No. 8 French, Luer-end ( Tapering Spigot End continuous with the Catheter itself, same material all through, just slowly a little wider at one end ) which 'end' fits onto the Plain Nose Syringe just as it is ), should be about the same or maybe 85 Cents for one.


No idea why some Mail Order places are so outrageous on price.


Just get two or three of each. When un-opened, they will last for ever.

Once opened, they last a long time, and or a lot of use, anyway.


If you wanted to get them from the Squirrel place, call them and make sure you are getting the right things.


These would be best.

The Lavage Needles are fine for routine feeding of Birds when no Esophagal problems ( Canker or some other things ) are present, but would be useless if dealing with less forgiving conditions.

If not used to having the Bird entirely stable and neck pulled up straight, if using a rigid Lavage Needle, and the Bird twists or struggles, it could really hurt them, where, the soft, Silicone Catheters I recommend would not hurt them a bit if they bent their neck and struggles while it were down into their Crop.


Hence, I have reasons always for seemingly small incidental details, which are neither small nor incidental nor arbitrary.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yuo weren't looking at the right items on 'Allegro' -

http://www.allegromedical.com/urologicals-catheters-c539.html


But regardless, there are differing materials, and, the Clear Silicone is what I would suggest - you can see the formula or meds going through it, it softens even further if swished in warm water, etc.

There aere many kinds of Catheters, and, many kinds of 'ends' which will not fit onto a plain tip Syringe, also.


I think I stated the exact product description and product code and so on in an earlier post, which if need be, would allow you to be sure you are getting the right thing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway, don't worry about his med doses for the two days you will be gone.


He will be fine, and, even if he gets a little less for those two days, in context, it will not effect anything adversely at that point.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Well, sad news...*

Mr. Pidge seemed off today, so I took him to the vet. They did gram stains etc, and said that he may have been a bit overloaded with the drugs, and to take him off and they gave him a pro-biotic. He seemed really stressed at the vet, and he passed away later this afternoon...

I feel pretty bad right about now, but I do know that he had a very long life for a bird--would have been 18 on January 17th--which to me is pretty amazing.

I truly believe that there was something more going on with him, that probably started before August when we had this first issue with his health. His wings never did go back up. Whether it was something I could have helped with a better vet and more money spent, I'll really never know--I kind of think there was something internal going on for quite some time--thinking of the issue with a bit of grit making him bleed etc.

I thank you all for helping me as much as you could via this great pigeon Internet group. If you would like, I would love to send you his meds as I barely used any of them--just let me know what you'd like and where to send them, and I'll pack them up as a thank you for all you did both this time and in August. My email address is [email protected], so just let me know.

Tracey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OMG Tracey, when I saw you had posted, this certainly is not the news I was expecting to read, this is terrible. As we know, he has had something brewing for a number of months now, but I thought we had a good chance at getting him by whatever it was. I just want to get it clear in my mind... you went to the vet, he was examined and treated and you came home and he suddenly passed? I am so very sorry that Mr. Pidge has passed, please accept my sincerest and deepest condolences, he was a lucky Pidge to have shared his life with you.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tracey,



I am so sorry to hear this.


It sure is not what I was expecting at all.


Loss for words, sorry.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry for the loss of this grand old pigeon, Tracey. 

Terry


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

Karyn, Phil and everyone who has helped me,

For Karyn, that's pretty much what happened. Went to the vet, got home, gave him a tiny amount of pro-biotic, and he died within a couple of hours of that. There was a great deal of clear liquid under him--not sure what that was...

Two deaths in one month, my beloved dog and now Mr. Pidge. Very hard to deal with, and tough to go by his big parrot cage and see him missing and all his toys--I guess I will take the cage down when I get back from Chicago. 

I buried him with his favorite penguin on wheels toy. He really had a huge personality for a bird, so funny sitting on that toy bird during breeding season, placing it in the food a few weeks later, and then he'd start throwing it around the cage--I guess trying to teach it to fly. I'm really going to miss him. 

I hand-raised him from 3 days old when his parents abandoned him on a 3-story ledge where I worked as a graphic designer at a college in Florida. For about 3 years, these two wild pigeons would place a few sticks on the ledge, and then lay two eggs, which promptly rolled off. I called this sometimes semi-yearly event "heartbreak city." 

I had a very dear friend who was a professor at the college and her sister was very sick and dying of cancer. During this time Jane's pet pigeon also died. Jane and I had often talked about Pigeons, and the "Heartbreak City" of how these two birds would always try to build a nest on the ledge outside my office.

It was an unseasonable warm Winter, and here came these two birds who this time really built a nest. They laid two eggs and they were actually sitting on them! The eggs hatched on my birthday, January 17th. 

I was wanting to cheer up my professor friend, so I invited her to come to my office for the amazing surprise of a full-blown next and actually two baby birds! She said she could come on Friday. The day before, we had a snap cold-spell, and those two parent birds abandoned the nest! I watched for several hours, figuring that they would return, but they did not. All I could think of was those poor babies so cold on this ledge, and my friend who was coming for the surprise of them actually hatching the very next day. 

I finally decided enough was enough. I cut a piece of mat-board narrow enough to get through the emergency window but long enough to reach across to where the nest was on the ledge, and I risked life and limb, going through a side emergency window 3 stories up, and climbing out on that ledge to these two featherless babies. I carefully reached across the empty space, scooping the entire nest up and slowly brought it back into my office. 

Sadly the female was already dead, and Mr. Pidge was so cold that he felt like a piece of meat in a refridgerator! I had a plastic sandwich bag, and I filled it with water from my dark room and microwaved it a bit. I got some paper towels and I put the bag, the towels and this tiny baby bird in a small cardboard box. He slowly warmed up, and I left my job, took him home and put him in a pet carrier that was half-way sitting on a heating pad. 

I went to the pet store and got baby bird formula, and I started hand-feeding him. I was really thinking my friend Jane would take him as her own. Of course she did not want another pigeon, and of course Mr. Pidge imprinted to me. This was before the Internet, so there was little information readily available on how to hand-raise a pigeon.

I did try to turn him loose at the college with the multitude of other pigeons that lived there, but it didn't work at all. About a week after I had turned him loose, I was going to tape the graduation, something I did twice a year, except this year it was really important that I do it right as the President's grand-daughter was graduating. 

As I was walking toward the building that was teaming with people all dressed really nice, I noticed a big commotion in the crowd, and a rather large, African-American woman started screaming. I ran up, and there was my bird, with his tiny talons lodged in the hair on side of her head, beating her in the face with his wings! 

I got an INSTANT MIGRAINE! A young boy was taking the bird from her head, when I ran up. I stuttered, "That's my bird," and he smiled and handed over a rather thin Mr. Pidge, saying, "I knew he had to belong to someone..." 

I still had his small cage with food and water sitting on the ledge where I'd found him, and I grabbed him and took him to my building, placing him in the cage so that I could tape the graduation. Word spread fast though, and after the graduation I was actually invited to the party at the president's house. She berated me in front of everyone for saving the life of a "Rat with Wings!" and I thought I was about ready to die or be fired.

This is how I ended up with a great friend for almost 18 years...

Anyway, it did me good to write his story. Maybe one day I will get another pigeon. I know I sure will miss this one. 

Tracey
PS: Please feel free to send me addresses for his meds. They cost me over $100, and I would really love to give them to someone who could use them.


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## Mr-Pidges-Mom (Jan 15, 2009)

*Sweet poem from one of the members of my support group:*

For Tracey: A poem from Mr. Pidge

From the ledge you pulled me in
You nourished me and gave me love
You've been my friend through thick and thin
My life complete I rise above

This earthly place we shared together
I'll never be too far from you
My love remains in you heart forever
You'll hear me and my loving coo

My spirit soars on healed wings
My thanks to you my caring friend
My heart is full and my soul sings
Our friendship and love shall never end

Remember me and my silly ways
Remember the smiles I gave you
Remember the joy and all the good days
Remember my love will see you through

The pain and sadness of saying goodbye
The loss of me physically there
I know you'll miss me but I'll be nearby
The bond we have we'll always share...


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

oh my im so so sorry,i have been following this thread and i cannot believe this happened to you,im so so sorry and i know itll be hard to deal with,but you saved that sweet little pij when no one else would have,and he had a great and vary long life! you should be proud he lived to be that age,he was happy and warm in a wonderful home with you thank you for sharing your beautiful story of how you saved him,he loved you so much im sure! you tyred your hardest,your story made me cry vary hard as well as the poem.im thankful that you gave him such an amazing life.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Tracey, thank you for sharing the story of how your life with Mr. Pidge came about, it was both touching and brought a smile to my face, with his escapes at the graduation ceremony and thank you as well for sharing the lovely heart touching poem.

I have an appointment later this week with my own vet and I will fill him in on Mr. Pidge's background and see if he has any insights to what might of occurred. With the meds, I think you should keep them, as many people here will attest to, sick and injured birds do have their way of seeking out and finding people with a heart like yours, and often times they need treatment right away with meds, so it wouldn't hurt to have them around if this were even to happen, you just never know.

Karyn


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