# White homing pigeons abilities.



## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I just sent for an order from a fellow breeder for 5 pure white Trenton racing homers. There older birds so I am using them as breeders. He claims them to have flown up to 300 miles, and I am just curious on what I can expect. I always thought whites had less homing ability due to them being bred more for color then flying. I am keeping them strictly for fun not looking for a release business.

Any input as to how far they can go, I definitely do not want to lose any young birds by going beyond their true ability. Thanks for any info/input.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have heard the same from racing folk saying just because of their beautiful color/or lack of it, doesn't make them good racers, they just don't have it

I don't believe it, if you find a good breeder with good line of white birds they probably can do the distance.


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

How far they can go and return depends on the birds. We have a few whites from CBS that more than hold their own. Personally i could care less what color they are as long as they remain healthy all year long and perform well on Saturday. The few whites we have are gift birds from another fancier to see how they would perform on our race course.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I've got a white bird on my OB race team. She's 2 years old and has been flown out to 400 miles. I bought her as a YB at a fund raiser auction that our combine had, simply because she's white.  But, having said that, I've bought white birds at auctions for the past 5 years and she's the only one I have. I believe that it's not so much the color and racing but the color and the fact that they are usually the minority in a flock and hawks tend to key on them because they stand out.


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## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

I agree . . . If bred and trained right . . . the color has nothing to do with it.

I have whites whose peds show line breeding to champions that have flown 100 - 385 as yb,100-210-330 as yrl and 100 -400 miles

AC


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## KO Loft (Jul 1, 2007)

*color not a deterent but...*

White homers in a race can have one problem and that is with predators. Most people I knew who used to race them would say that a hawk or other raptors could target these birds much easier because they are quite noticeable in a flock or in the sky. I observed once a racer land near me while fishing in a urban park that had a racing band. The bird landed got a drink and then was off. On the rock it blended in quite well, but if it was white or black it would have stood out more. Take a test though and see when a group of birds is flying if you can pick out any birds from the flock. Now try with a bird that is white in a flock of blue bars or checks. 

joe


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Grim said:


> I just sent for an order from a fellow breeder for 5 pure white Trenton racing homers.......


 I don't always want to be the spoiled sport....but I just don't believe that there is such a thing as ...pure white Trenton racing homers....not that I am an expert on the Trenton strain.....but they were an "old" strain when I saw my first Trentons in 1965, so in order to be "pure" it would have to be one heck of a line breeding program from the early part of the 1900's and then through several fanciers hands.... ....that's an awful lot of cocks and hens that would have had to tip toe a very straight line for a very, very long time...

Well anyway maybe you meant "All White" Trentons....if there is really such a bird as a Trenton anymore...the bottom line is they are white. In "theory" the lack of pigmentation should have no bearing on the homing ability ....but the reality is there are fewer birds with this lack of color, and of those, they have not been subjected to the same selective pressures as those with color, so percentage wise....there are very few Champion lofts based on white pigeons, in fact, I don't know of a single one....but certainly there are far fewer then lofts based on pigeons with the color. 

The other issue is feather quality, don't believe that white pigeons, or lite silvers for that matter, have the same feather quality...they tend to frey more quickly....but since you are just having them for fun...none of any of this matters.... .....just let them fly around the loft...and don't take them down the road, and then you don't have to worry about losing any from training. 

If on the other hand you want to someday take up racing, you may want to consider owning the best racers you can afford, regardless of their color or lack of color. Which in my mind means you will end of with birds of color, since that is where you will find the best racers.....


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

i have heard of several winning whites. 

are they recessive whites? or red/grizzle whites?


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

double post


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## trailbound (Apr 11, 2007)

There is a diffence in strains. I am building my loft of whites to both race and to release (weddings etc) and I bought cheap early this spring, and bought breeders for the most part, and a dozen YB's. The dang YB's refused to fly from the loft (ever) and really did not seem to enjoy flying all that much, but I worked with what I had, mostly unbanded, only a few with pedigrees (of which colors did not match some of the birds totally, and dark feathers actually started coming in on birds that had obviously had them plucked prior to being shipped to me) I lost MANY on training flights, assuming hawks, and then I was willed 4 CBS whites (YB's) when one of our club members suddenly passed away, and it was not til then that I knew just how sub-standard and pretty crappy all my other stock was and is. I just recieved 20 CBS YB's that I ordered just last week, and MY what a difference, these birds are just built to fly, and the health is phenomenal. So, I learned a lesson really the hard way and wish I had started with quality right from the get go. I know it can be a lot to swallow spending good money on birds, but it is not money wasted, of that I am convinced. I will only buy my whites from serious racing lofts in the future, most likely back to CBS, as Steve there was a great help, and everything was handled very professionally. I was very impressed.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2007)

I have whites ,reds and yellows in my flock and for some reason the ones the hawks always prefer to grab are my yellows first .. just thought I add that in for the white being targeted or not in the races ..Im guessing if it was one of few in a flock full of blue blue and checks they probably would be the first to go


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

As was said there are whites that are as good as any other but most the ones out there are not. You have to get the best you can cause there are many people breeding whites trying to make a buck and don't really have good ones.


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

ohiogsp said:


> As was said there are whites that are as good as any other but most the ones out there are not. You have to get the best you can cause there are many people breeding whites trying to make a buck and don't really have good ones.


very true.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

trailbound said:


> There is a diffence in strains.... So, I learned a lesson really the hard way and wish I had started with quality right from the get go. I know it can be a lot to swallow spending good money on birds, but it is not money wasted, of that I am convinced. I will only buy my whites from serious racing lofts in the future, most likely back to CBS, as Steve there was a great help, and everything was handled very professionally. I was very impressed.


You are so very correct from my vantage point. Sure you can work your way up from the bottom...might take you sixty years...but it could be done....but why waste decades of blood, sweat and tears ? Like many other things in life, if you invest in the very best, it often holds it value, and may even increase in value. 

Price and value are not always correlated correctly....and pigeons are sometimes the same way....but on average.....the very highly valued pigeons, that our highly sought after.....are not going to be selling at the lowest prices. The ones selling at the lower or lowest prices...are going to be the pigeons that are not in demand. Not rocket science here I know...but you point out what one would think should be obvious, but people will try to convince me that laws of supply and demand are different with pigeons...but my 101 and 201 Economics Professors would disagree...



Good Post !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Color does not make a bird fly better. Blue is the base color to all pigeons. Whites have in the past held there place on the race sheets. BUT many do not breed and race whites. So they suffer from lack of quality breeding. ,and to much inbreeding for color. Never be afraid to out cross color as you can easly get color back in a few years, Feather quality hes been over looked in white birds also. A course hard feather is desired to hold up to the demands of racing. The white bandits are a grizzle white a little different then the normal white homer. Trentons are a old line bird that would be hard to prove a trenton bird. Base line family strain perhaps. But many of the old line strains exsist only in name now days.Each loft puts a mark on the birds each flyer gets the birds to perform there way. YES I would say it would not be that hard hard to build a competive white family of racers. Do they attract hawks no more then other colors but with less whites in a race they would stand out be seen easyer. So they become a target perhaps more often. Color blend is natures way. Blue the sky color helps to a point. Breeding alert quality birds helps. Set down a solid program breed those white birds And to tell the truth if the whites start hitting the tops of the race reports People will be standing in line to get them. Race people want winners The whites deserve a come back off quality bred birds


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

Thats not true somone i know put 5 whites on his race team from his wifes pairs that she uses for realeases he sent 20 birds one was a white he got 4 home that day and one was a white so now he was mad his wifes white one beat his good ones lol it all depends on the shape and body of a pigeon 
you cant send a non-healthy one or for sure you wont get them back! 
Whites attract the hawks more 

White ones own they should get the

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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Did the white one win the race? Maybe someone you know needs some better colored pigeons. I am just messing with you. We are speeking about the majority of white bird here not a perticular one bird. There is a guy that races a white on his OB team here and it is a fine bird.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> Did the white one win the race? Maybe someone you know needs some better colored pigeons. I am just messing with you. We are speeking about the majority of white bird here not a perticular one bird. There is a guy that races a white on his OB team here and it is a fine bird.


You are correct....we are discussing the rule...not the exception. I knew that someone would object, because they own or knew a single white bird somewhere which beat some birds of color. 

What I want to see, is a race report with several thousands of birds, and the first 30 or 40 birds are all white....and then do that in a dozen different places...yea right...like that is going to happen........


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Great replies so far! (nice to see so many people have become educated on flying 'whites'  )

Trialbound unfortunately hit the most common problem with obtaining GOOD flying whites..... too many people out to make a quick buck, and breeding a crapload of unbanded birds to sell cheaply to some unsuspecting customer.

We got caught in that trap too - even with banded birds. Easy to stick a 25 cent band on a bird, claim it's 'pedigreed', and charge more for it - then laugh as your customer drives away, I guess ?

We started out with 'whites' several years ago, after having had racing pigeons for 4-5 years, and still managed to get 'taken'. Duh to us!  We have only one white bird left from the first year of breeding, and absolutely none at all from the second year. Started to wise up after that, and completely changed our breeding practices and all of our breeding pairs, and since then, we've been doing much better. 

Outcrossing is the answer, of course. You can't maintain a breeding program based on colour alone, and still maintain homing ability/smarts to any degree. We use a variety of methods, but mostly it's white grizzles crossed into our white stock. Yes, we get some birds that we refer to as "mismarks", since they aren't truly white - they'll have the odd dark feather in the tail, or on the neck. In reality, they are 'masked grizzles' - mostly white, but some grizzle characteristics - such as a dark beak, or dark spot on the beak, and orange or yellow eyes, rather than bull eyes. We've been 5-6 years now working on maintaining a loft of decent flying whites. Yes, we race them some - to the shorter races only though, since our main goal for our whites is our release business, not racing. We've been quite happy with our results so far, but it has taken a lot of work to get to this point.

Whites can race. Yes, I've heard of them doing very well, right out to 600 miles. Are they "pure" (recessive) whites? I don't know - but does it matter? If the bird looks all white, then they can be called "white", imho. You call a blue bar a blue bar - even if it's background is a lot of checker and red. So why not call a white a white - even if it has grizzle in it's parentage? 

The reason that a higher percentage of winning racers are other than white is because a MUCH higher percentage of racers aren't white. In our area, at least, that could be changing. There are way more grizzles/whites going into the crates on shipping night than there was 10 years ago. Grizzles and whites often sell for a lot more than the coloured birds at YB auctions these days too. Guys who swore they'd never have a grizzle or white bird in their loft are suddenly showing up with them in the training crates. LOL


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## 1pigeon (Apr 5, 2006)

I think they can win for you,I think we haven't see that many white color win on the report because some time breeder bred them(White) with other color so there baby turn to be the other color beside white.
I pick up a BB cock that won a few race at GHC Club He have white bandit on both side.I mated him with BB ...i have 1 white on the socond round.
I have a few pictures of white that have abilities to win or bred winner and children of white winner.Don't forget the great The White Bandit too.








*WitteSherrif*
Sire of 00-B-4300383
“De Limoges”
3rd Limoges vs 278
166th Nat. Limoges vs 16,945
3rd Limoges vs 192
8th National Limoges vs 8,869
80th Prov. La Souterraine vs 3,367
•
Grandsire “Tijgerina”
1st Dourdan vs 550
3rd Dourdan vs 350
1st Ace Pigeon Middle Distance YB
•
Grandsire of “Grizje 400”
3rd Chateroux vs 472
20th Prov. Chateroux vs 4,485
•
Sire of “Pattyna”
2nd Macquenoise vs 324
2nd Macquenoise vs 293
1st Noyon vs 161
2nd Noyon vs 202
1st Noyon vs 39
3rd noyon vs 635
5th Noyon vs 395
•
Sire of Jonge Anieha
2nd Ace Pigeon YB Long Distance








*De Witte Bourges*
1st Prov. Bourges vs 1,671
2nd Natl. Bourges vs 12,546
5th fastest vs 73,730
In addition
1st Chateroux
11th Melun
14th Chateroux


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

When I first started with pigeons I remember I got some cheap farm homers. These birds were released and would fly to a tree or sit on top of their coop. I eventually got some homers from a local racer and these birds never landed in a tree instead they flew and seemed to enjoy it.

So what should I be looking for right away. When I release the young if they have no interest in flying or ranging should I assume there just bred for color? I would like to do training tosses, and exercise them but want birds that want to fly. Not worried about the fastest, so any input on what to look for so I know if I should continue with the birds?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

WhiteWingsCa said:


> Great replies so far! (nice to see so many people have become educated on flying 'whites'  )
> 
> ....Outcrossing is the answer, of course. You can't maintain a breeding program based on colour alone, and still maintain homing ability/smarts to any degree..... since our main goal for our whites is our release business, not racing. We've been quite happy with our results so far, but it has taken a lot of work to get to this point......Grizzles and whites often sell for a lot more than the coloured birds at YB auctions these days too. Guys who swore they'd never have a grizzle or white bird in their loft are suddenly showing up with them in the training crates. LOL


I think you make many good points....For many years I harbored a deep seated desire to own some great pigeons which were Red, there was no logic to it...it was emotional...which is OK...the races around here cover 9 weeks of the year, but I must look and care for them for 52 weeks of the year. Then of course some very exceptional Blue Bars affected my life in recent years, and so my new fascination may just may be blue. In my case I needed to relive my glory days with "Mister Red" one of my early success birds see... http://smithfamilyloft.com/HistorySFL.htm
But once I paid homeage to Mister Red and was able to move on...I developed new tastes not only in color but in form and balance among other things... 

If your main priorty is going to be based on color...I think one has established that he or she may not obtain racing greatness if that factor is given priorty over speed.

Having said all that, I would consider a completely different breed/strain for a release business. I have said that before, but I suspect that since I may have suggested it, it may not carry any weight. The birds are a breed which would circle high above the release point, for an extended period of time, prior to heading home. The homing instinct does not have to be great, since most releases are done within a sixty mile radius. The birds would be a blend of highflier/performance breeds. And maybe a little grizzle is not going to hurt....well it was just a thought...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You can breed Whites that can race ,fly Around the house/loft Very easy you can race only white birds and do well. IF YOU set down a solid program. Out cross color to increase vigor and bring coloir back along with qaulity. Far as birds sitting THAT is an owner problem birds need to be trained Feed is the tool to train your birds. Do not feed before lofting the birds they will fly less and sit more are not encouraged to trap so they sit. Even a feral/barn pigeon can be taught to fl;y and trap any pigeon if trained right does. Cocks bred out of white x any color carry white put back to white hen x split cock those cocks carry a stronger gene for white. put back to white hen you get mostly white. Hens split showing white put on split and white cocks the same you increase your color being white. AND you increase your performance. WHITE is the color quality is the desire breed it in you have both color and great birds Not that hard just do not run it takes time And the best allways is done in time not right now.


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## tracecom (Jun 29, 2007)

re lee said:


> Even a feral/barn pigeon can be taught to fl;y and trap any pigeon if trained right does.


I intend to try that very thing - and more - and will be interested to see if my experiments confirm or contradict the experts who contend that years and years and years of breeding and reams of pedigree papers are the only way (or even the best way) to repetitively get quality performers. My interest is not in just owning race winners, but rather learning what makes race winners. Testing my observations and hypotheses about pedigreed versus non-pedigreed **** sapiens on columbia livens is what interests me.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

tracecom said:


> I intend to try that very thing - and more - and will be interested to see if my experiments confirm or contradict the experts who contend that years and years and years of breeding and reams of pedigree papers are the only way (or even the best way) to repetitively get quality performers. My interest is not in just owning race winners, but rather learning what makes race winners. Testing my observations and hypotheses about pedigreed versus non-pedigreed **** sapiens on columbia livens is what interests me.


 I don't think the issue was ever about pedigrees, the issue and point was that great pigeons come from great pigeons....as well as junk sometimes come from great pigeons....but poor quality pigeons almost always produce lower quality. 

What the "Experts" like Robert were trying to say....the better the quality you start with, the faster you will experience the producing of good birds. What you are referring to is what is called "Reinventing The Wheel" .. because to learn what makes race winners...is a fairly easy concept.....you need some good birds to breed from...which is what we were trying to tell you....but feel free to test your observations and hypotheses and try your experiments to see if you can get a silk purse from a sow's ear.... ......good luck to you !


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Smith, that individual was not the thread starter. I am getting the so called trentons and possibly some delbars and am going to see how it goes.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Grim  ,

I was thinking that this conversation went a little off course....have fun with the Trentons or Delbars...or whatever you end up owning... When you are first starting out....it normally does not matter what you have the 1st year or two. Normally the lack of management skill will mess them up so bad...just getting them home at all is sometimes a great feat !.... .....so enjoy the process..


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Thanks for your observations Warren. Apparently there is someone who claims to have bred a 'special' form of pigeon that will circle the area more. Don't know what he's used for the breeding program, as he's rather closed mouthed about it, from my experience.

Having a 'circling' bird is great, in some instances. For myself, not what I'm looking for, as most people enjoy watching the birds circle once or twice, then go back to congratulating or consoling each other (depending on wedding or funeral release ). There have even been instances where no one is watching the birds, once they hit the sky! Except me, of course -- I'm always watching them. LOL

Some of my releases are at the 70-80 mile point, and often through a major city, with lots of apartments and high-rises - so I'm not sure that a 'high flyer' or other cross would cut it. Have to wonder too -- it the birds are circling more, hanging around the same spot, are they at greater risk from the hawks? 

So many variables to consider - same as with racing pigeons. A strain that does well in the open prairies isn't necessarily going to do well in the more mountainous areas, and vice versa.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I have seen some so called crosses as well. I noticed they seem to have some foot feathering.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

WhiteWingsCa said:


> Thanks for your observations Warren. Apparently there is someone who claims to have bred a 'special' form of pigeon that will circle the area more. Don't know what he's used for the breeding program, as he's rather closed mouthed about it, from my experience.


Well...just for fun, I have been developing a "HighFlier" which has been trained with my race birds for up to 75 miles. The base of the birds came from a fancier in Bosnia, through selective breeding and some crosses several generations back, developed a pigeon smaller then a typical racer, the birds are white grizzle and have white eyes like a tippler. I made the mistake of releasing them one afternoon at the loft at about 4PM and they flew throught out the entire night and did not land till around 9AM the following morning.

If the extra circling or high flying is of no value in the release business, then I would breed what is needed. I don't think the flying around the release site, or the loft for that matter, makes them anymore of a target, as the hawk has to get above them...it's difficult for a hawk to catch a bird which is higher in the sky then they are.

I wouldn't think that releases over 50 + miles would be economically feasible since you would have two plus hours just in travel time...but I didn't write the business plan,...... with my business 95% of all work is within 20 miles of where the vehicles are stored. Since most jobs are based on $250-$350 an hour with the clients paying for travel time, and a equipment charge of $250 just to show up, most jobs are going to be close by. And besides, it is much easyer to get 8 to 10 billable hours a day if the jobs are all close together, hard to do if you are driving hours to a job...

I think the point of all this was making a white family of birds double as race birds and part of a release business. My point was if you are going to be serious, and be taken seriously to the point of entering your birds into races where you can earn some serious money, then race with racing pigeons, and keep your white "Homers" for your release for pay operation.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

What gives those birds the ability to fly that long and at night?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Ok here it goes I have been bored not having birds. And desided to get a few birds That I can handle SO I desides to try White racers. I will work on these birds to see what I need to do. I looked at several handled several Picked Out 9 birds so far. Now many the white I handled felt to me to inbred For the color I believe. As several cocks had loose vents[ Vent bones]. And less frontal body strength. I looked at about 40 white birds. I did get 1 pretty strong cock bird that had the tools I am looking for. Can it raise good flyers that will be tested out. NOW I need to look at colored birds. I am thinking red velvet mealy or silver which in homers is still off the ash red family. Why Because looking for birds that would have a near horn beak color making it easyer to breed back to the solid white faster. BUT add quality in performance. It should be fun AND I will have birds agin on a lesser scale. And be testing an idea If you look at all breeds The color has been basicly added either through mutations in the past or color out cross to set the desired color.ANY white racer that is called a certion strain be it janssen, sion trenton ect. was a color out cross to that strain line by some one other then the strain founder. some old line strains were bred white. BUT have been long bred out White bandits are a newer line that some are white not grizzle in color. That will raise both white and white grizzled birds. Feather quality also has to strenghened in white birds as a softer feather, and weaker webbing has been over looked and bred in cause break down at A FASTER RATE So agin this will be a fun interesting adventure. And how about a small challenge to the race members here try setting down 2 or 3 pair of whites into your program and build them as you still will be racing you top birds while you play at bringing back QUALITY whites for the future.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I wouldn't think that releases over 50 + miles would be economically feasible since you would have two plus hours just in travel time...but I didn't write the business plan,...... with my business 95% of all work is within 20 miles of where the vehicles are stored. Since most jobs are based on $250-$350 an hour with the clients paying for travel time, and a equipment charge of $250 just to show up, most jobs are going to be close by. And besides, it is much easyer to get 8 to 10 billable hours a day if the jobs are all close together, hard to do if you are driving hours to a job...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## MunirWp (Mar 26, 2012)

hi i started with 12 pure white pigeons . i trained them with my racing pigeons and they raced well. i now have 51 pure white racing pigeons and all is good .


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