# Hello folks...new to pigeon life



## WiskeyJaR (Jun 25, 2009)

Hi guys, Im new to the pigeon scene. Have a 10x10 garden shed I use as loft with a 8x16 flight pen. Dirt floor in both flight pen and loft. I had 10 birds to start with....all died  After scrubing the loft and pen, got a nother 10 birds. Now they are starting to die off. 3rd bird dead this morning. 

They act like they are tired, walking across ground with wings dragging. They will fly if I try to pick them up. I have 3 water bottles, stanard "chicken" watering bottle from local feed store. I clean them every day. Feed them roughly 10 oz. of "Pigeon feed" I get from said feed store a day.

I havnt let this lastest bunch free to fly out of pen yet. Last bunch I would let out in evenings to fly around for a couple hours. 

Any ideas on what Im doing wrong? Will post pics of loft later when I get them.

Thanks.
WiskeyJaR

P.S. these where suppose to be for "therapetutic" reason as I run a home for mentally handicapped men. They like watching the birds fly and circle the house in the evenings. Thanks again.


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

WiskeyJaR said:


> Hi guys, Im new to the pigeon scene. Have a 10x10 garden shed I use as loft with a 8x16 flight pen. Dirt floor in both flight pen and loft. I had 10 birds to start with....all died  After scrubing the loft and pen, got a nother 10 birds. Now they are starting to die off. 3rd bird dead this morning.
> 
> They act like they are tired, walking across ground with wings dragging. They will fly if I try to pick them up. I have 3 water bottles, stanard "chicken" watering bottle from local feed store. I clean them every day. Feed them roughly 10 oz. of "Pigeon feed" I get from said feed store a day.
> 
> ...


You should move this post to "sick/injured pigeons" so it will be seen. You will get quicker response. I would move it for you but I don't know how to.


----------



## WiskeyJaR (Jun 25, 2009)

how do you move a post?


----------



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

WiskeyJaR said:


> how do you move a post?


I'm not sure, but a moderator will see it and can move it


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

how do you feed and water them? and what kind of pigeons are they?, did you get the second round from the same person?....a dirt floor is not ideal, but can't think it would cause a big die off like that.....


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*HI WhiskyJaR, welcome to pigeon talk, there is a good chanche that the dirt floor may be contaminated with some type of insecticide. How long is it since the chickens were housed in that loft?*GEORGE


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing. But there are also bacterias which can make them sick which can also live for years in the soil. Would it be posible to put in a floor? Also, is it the same bag of feed that you are giving them, that you gave the other ten that died? I'm wondering if there could posibly be mold or some bacteria in the seed.


----------



## WiskeyJaR (Jun 25, 2009)

> how do you feed and water them?


Fresh water daily with vinegar added once a week. Was told that "apple cider vinegar" was healthy for pigeons....true or false?



> what kind of pigeons are they?,


These are just common Pigeons that I bought out of the local paper. This is a "project" for my home, I run an adult foster home  No fancy birds....yet.



> did you get the second round from the same person?


Two different sources for the birds.



> a dirt floor is not ideal, but can't think it would cause a big die off like that


I do scrape the ground once a week or so, to help keep the dropings picked up. Two of the nests where on floor, I never disturbed them. I have 5 nest boxes, 10"x10"x10" Only 3 boxes being used.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Another thought. Are you sure that mice are not getting into your loft. They carry salmonella, and paratyphoid which can kill the birds. It is easy for them to get under with a dirt floor. They don't need much of a space to get in.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. ACV is good in the water 2 or 3 times a week. 1 or 2 Tablespoons to a gallon of water. If they won't drink it, cut down the amount of vinegar. Rather than the apple cider vinegar from the market, Organic, raw, unfiltered ACV is better. No preservatives. ACV keeps the gut PH more acidic, which the bad bacterias don't like, and helps with digestion.


----------



## WiskeyJaR (Jun 25, 2009)

The loft was never used as a chicken coop. It is a garden shed that I bought new and put together myself. Nothing but pigeons have been in it .

The ground that the loft sits on is just a spot in the back yard, never had fertilizer or weed killer used on it. The ground was scraped bare before building shed, so nothing was growing on floor, other then the few seeds spilling and sprouting before I scrape the floor weekly.

Same feed from same store for the different batches of birds, but was different sacks of feed. Feed seems dry to me.

I have wire mesh around bottom edge of loft and flight pen, wire mesh extends 6" into ground. Have not seen any signs of mice or anything else getting in. Do have squrriels running around the outside of shed, as there is a squrriel nest in trees above 

Thanks again folks.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Aside from getting them off the dirt, you could increase the ventilation. It could be a mold that is affecting them. 
If you are not using the same bag of seed as you did with the other 10 birds, then there must be something in the shed. Probably mold, or something in the soil. With a dirt floor, you can't disinfect it, and there could be anything in the soil. You can disinfect everything else, but if you can't disinfect the floor, then what's the point. You said you did scrub it, you need to disinfect it, and you really can't do that with a dirt floor. Birds spend time on the floor, so if you can't disinfect that, then there's really no point in doing it anywhere else.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Unfortunately, at this point, the only thing I can suggest if having an Avian Vet check them and do some tests. Have fecal samples checked.

What are you feeding them and how is the food stored? Do you use hay? Hay is not a good idea.

Detective work definitely needed! Pigeons are very hardy, but there sounds like some kind of common demoninator!

Hope you can find an answer! Please keep us updated.

Where are you located?

Best regards

Shi


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Is the shed made out or treated wood? Is there good ventilation and light?
Dirt floors are very bad for Pigeons and are impossible to keep clean. Mold can grow which can be deadly to Pigeons. As Jay said, with a dirt floor, it is much easier for mice and rats to get inside. The droppings of either can make your birds sick. Rats will actually take their heads off in the dark.
What does their poop look like?
It would be great of you would post a picture.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sorry, I thought it was an old garden shed. You didn't explain that it was new. Could there be some kind of mold in the soil? How is the ventilation? How many windows does the shed have?


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Obviously something is killing your birds. Buy a new feed bag. Get water from a different source. Fix that dirt issue. It sounds paratyphoid to me. Hopefully you don't have poisonous substance as well.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You said this is a new bag of feed, so it probably isn't that, but you could try a different feed source from a different place if you can find one, as it isn't always easy to find pigeon mix. I tend to think that it is either something in the ground, or that the wood that the shed is made from may be treated wood, as Charis mentioned, or paratyphoid. A poop culture could tell you that. I would suspect that. I sure hope you find out soon what is causing this. Please keep us updated. I'm sure we will all be curious to find out what it is. I'm so sorry that you're losing your birds this way.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I would get them out of the shed until you figure it out. Do you have a garage you can put them in?
Has their grit gotten wet by chance or the bag you keep it in?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/a-bad-experience-with-fungus-23600.html


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wow! Charis, that was really an interestin thread. I know fungus can reek havoc, but that was really scary. I've printed it out, and will keep the info. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

not to go off track, but just a thought.....sometimes people can do some bad things to pigeons esp. if they don't like them or someone has a mental problem....poisoning comes to mind if nothing else can be found....I would hate to think that would happen but I have heard stranger things.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Didn't even think about that. But sadly, that is posible. It has happened in the past to other people. There are some sick, mean people out there, unfortunately.


----------



## WiskeyJaR (Jun 25, 2009)

Poisoning isnt an issue...90% sure it isnt. I live in small town, folks here abouts would rather shot a "pest" then spend the money on poisons  

Went out this morning to check on the birds, lots of runny poop on ground 
After reading some other posts on here, I'm thinking something like this....
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12250.html
so how does one go about getting them medicated. Can you get the meds from a feedstore? Small town, no local vet 

Thanks again folks,
WiskeyJaR


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You need this. All bird products is one of the last places around where you can get it.

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Toxic Fumes*

*Is this shed made of pressed wood chips, if it is some of the glues used in making this presswood can be toxic to birds when you discribe the birds as dragging there wings,this leads me to think that there are toxic fumes that make the birds act like they are drunk. Any toxic flumes or gases can kill birds * GEORGE


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Isn't this the wood that many members are using for their loft walls? OSB board? That should be safe.


----------



## WiskeyJaR (Jun 25, 2009)

yes Garden shed is pressed wood chips... Here's a few pics of loft.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh285/WiskeyJaR/Picture849.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh285/WiskeyJaR/Picture848.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh285/WiskeyJaR/Picture847.jpg

The shed/loft has about a 6" gap all along where the roof meets the walls, screened in of course. Seems to stay fairly cool inside. I do have a heat lamp in corner. The doors are always left open to the flight pen.
I'll be getting a floor for the loft this next week. Was thinking a simple plywood floor?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't think it would be the walls. OSB board is used in many lofts. And in homes. 
A plywood floor would be great.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where, basically, are you? Sometimes it helps during diagnostic enigmas.

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Is this shed made of pressed wood chips, if it is some of the glues used in making this presswood can be toxic to birds when you discribe the birds as dragging there wings,this leads me to think that there are toxic fumes that make the birds act like they are drunk. Any toxic flumes or gases can kill birds * GEORGE


I'm wondering the same.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As "open air" as that place is, I just don't see it. I'd think it far more likely that they're eating some of the dirt for grit and picking up something bad. Or that they're getting infected with something like Sarcocystis falcatula from cockroaches or flies in the area. Surely get a bird that just died to a vet for a necropsy and also start treating any bird that's exhibiting symptoms with an antibiotic. If it were Paratyphoid, you'd usually see some survivors or asymptomatic individuals. You'll need to look a lot closer for more symptoms like the respiration rate, feces and any other behavioral abnormalities.

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> As "open air" as that place is, I just don't see it. I'd think it far more likely that they're eating some of the dirt for grit and picking up something bad. Or that they're getting infected with something like Sarcocystis falcatula from cockroaches or flies in the area. Surely get a bird that just died to a vet for a necropsy and also start treating any bird that's exhibiting symptoms with an antibiotic. If it were Paratyphoid, you'd usually see some survivors or asymptomatic individuals. You'll need to look a lot closer for more symptoms like the respiration rate, feces and any other behavioral abnormalities.
> 
> Pidgey


Have you had the opportunity to read the thread in full yet? There are other clues.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did that at first.

And looked at the pictures. Just nothing glaring to me, that's all.

Well, that's not completely correct: I don't like dirt floors and I don't like chicken-coop wire as mice can go right through it.

Pidgey


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> I'm wondering the same.


Isn't this the same wood that lots of people use in their lofts. Or are there different kinds?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Isn't this the same wood that lots of people use in their lofts. Or are there different kinds?


It is but there can be an off gas that can make living things sick. It all depends upon the manufacturing process of the particular pieces used in that shed. Birds are especially sensitive to off gasses and fumes of any kind.
Could be that's not the problem but I am suspicious.
I'm suspicious of the dirt too.


----------

