# Which genes are involved



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi all,

I found these pictures on the net and was wondering about which genes of the Danish Suabien causes the dark head, light neck and upper parts and leaves the rest of the bird normally coloured?
















Secondly, in the Dutch Highflier, what gene is responsible for the white shield? Is it a simple single gene, or is it complex combinations of factors like so many pied mutations seem to be...









Regards,
Rudolph


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Good questions*



rudolph.est said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I found these pictures on the net and was wondering about which genes of the Danish Suabien causes the dark head, light neck and upper parts and leaves the rest of the bird normally coloured?
> View attachment 12560
> ...


I asked awhile back if anyone knew what all was in a pheasant pigeon or suabian and it seemed that no one could say exactly what all is in there. I have some for testing as I am interested in them.

They are at least t pattern and bronze with toy stencil. Frank may get in here as he knows alot more about them than I do. There is quite a lot to them.

The whitesides come about possibly in a couple of different ways. Some say there is a whiteside gene which there may be. In reds and yellows, they can be made from agates which moult in white. In this case, it is a few steps to getting them from the rosewing to the whiteside appearance. Whether these are actually two different genes (ws or agate types), I don't really know. I do know that in the agate types, there are a fair amount of mismarks to get them to the full whiteside.

Bill


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bill,

Bronze? Which bronze would be my question. Also I though they would be spread to get the dark faces?

I think I'll get some suabiens myself (if I can find any in my area, homers abound here but fancy pigeons - much less so). I'll breed them to homer wild-type. I like the colour of the suabien, but will never get used to field pigeon conformation. I like the proud carriage of the carrier, dragoon, barb and their progeny.

I am planning a few projects, but don't know how I'll be able to keep all the pigeons. There're the suabiens, the egyptian swifts (what is in their make up anyway?) And then those combinations that I've never heard any-one talk about: ice gimpel, reduced gimpel, toy-stencil / frill stencil gimpel, what about combining all those - reduced, ice, frill-stencil, gimpel? Would it be pretty / ugly or utterly unatainable. How about and extreme dilute, milky, brander bronze?

Seems like I'll have to get Danish Tumblers, suabiens, mokees, archangels, damascenes, lemon homers ... Oh and don't forget the blondinettes. I think I might be on my way to going overboard. ;-)

Regards,
Rudolph


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Rudolph*



rudolph.est said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> Bronze? Which bronze would be my question. Also I though they would be spread to get the dark faces?
> 
> ...


Whether there is more bronze than just toy stencil bronze, I don't know but maybe not. I'm certain that they have dirty factor to make them dark. They are not spread, they are t pattern. What else is there, I don't really know but gimpel without archangel bronze may be a possibility. Hopefully, Frank will take a look at this and help us out. Otherwise, I can try to find out elsewhere.

I don't know what is in Egyptian swifts either, even though I used to have them. There is a Catalonian tumbler that has the same appearance, in fact, Catalonian tumblers have maybe more variety and odd things in them than any other breed that I can think of. There is even one that looks like Suabians or Pheasant pigeons. There are CT's that are gimpel. Gimpel is a possiblity for the swifts as well as other pigeons that have the dark body and bronze head and neck. Quite a few pigeons share this appearance and there are variations of it in different breeds. I'm trying to sort some of these out for myself as it's difficult to get a straight answer anywhere on some of these things.

I have too many projects as well, working on ember, brander, extreme dilute, ribbontail, toy stencil and frill stencil in rollers and figuritas among other things. I've been collecting so many genetic projects that I don't have much room for youngsters.  Ah, the life of a pigeon breeder.

Bill


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bill,

There we go again ... I thought that gimpel WAS archangel bronze! Hehehe, I think I've read the websites by Frank Mosca, Ron Huntley, Tom Barnhart and Robart Magile a hundred times, but still get things wrong. I wish read German better, so I could understand Axel Sell's site.

Oh well, the only way to learn is to DO, right!

Regards,
Rudolph


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Rudolph*



rudolph.est said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> There we go again ... I thought that gimpel WAS archangel bronze! Hehehe, I think I've read the websites by Frank Mosca, Ron Huntley, Tom Barnhart and Robart Magile a hundred times, but still get things wrong. I wish read German better, so I could understand Axel Sell's site.
> 
> ...


Archangel bronze is often referred to as gimpel or gimpel bronze. It is safe to say that they travel together alot but I think they are two different genes, the gimpel being a pattern and the archangel bronze being a color modifier. I believe Paul Gibson determined that they are separate, just very often found together. I'll have to check with him to be sure this is what he meant but I'm fairly sure this is how it is. You can have one without the other.

Bill


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bill,

Yeah, another project for me!

Gimpel pattern and archangel bronze!

Could you give me any details about their genetic characteristics? Dominant, recessive, standard symbols used (if there are any)?

If your willing to share, I'd also love to know more about your projects. I've always found the stencils beautiful and interesting, but I don't know much about the genes involved.

Regards,
Rudolph


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Rudolph*



rudolph.est said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> Yeah, another project for me!
> 
> ...


I checked Gibson's latest book and the Quinn book. Archangel in the Quinn book is listed as KA and it is at least partially dominant, bred to wild type produces variable amounts of bronze. Gibson says that he is pretty sure that gimpel is separate (I agree with him) and is a recessive gene which he gives as "gp" for nomenclature. I am not certain if it is a simple recessive but am testing it myself.

Gibson says the Suabians are gimpel pattern and have archangel bronze in them. Could be, he did alot of work with Archangels and gimpel pattern birds.

I don't have any problem sharing any info that I have. I sent you a pm with my email.

Bill


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bill,

Archangel bronze KA (as in K superscript A?), does that mean that archangel bronze is an allele of Kite bronze (K)?

What is the expression of **** gp look like exactly?

I'm definitely mating Suabiens to wild type. First chance I get.

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi I found an article on Axel Sell's site. With what little german I can muster as well as help from google and babelfish. I think I understand more of the gimpel pattern / archangel bronze combination now...

The article is at http://www.taubensell.de/gimpeltauben_teil1.htm, for those interested in trying to read it. ;-)

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yes, upper case*



rudolph.est said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> Archangel bronze KA (as in K superscript A?), does that mean that archangel bronze is an allele of Kite bronze (K)?
> 
> ...


Quinn's book from the 70's lists all bronzes under kite and they all start with a K, followed by a raised A for archangel, M for modena, R for roller, B for brander, T for tippler, S for Toy stencil, l for lebanon stencil (the only lower case, typo?). Kite itself is just listed as K. This was the nomenclature of the 70's.

Gibson's book, written in 2005, lists kite as K, Shakhsharli bronze as Sh, (new one eh?), Toy stencil as Ts1 Ts2 and Ts3 and I don't think any other bronzes.
I've had shakhsharli's too, different but I don't know if they have their own bronze or not, looks alot like others. Lebanon bronze is now thought to just be a part of toy stencil.

I have said before that what if there is only one bronze that all birds have in them and is just changed by other factors. Just a rambling thought but almost the way Quinn described it so long ago. Still don't know and there is still plenty of controversy over how it all works.

**** gp would be like an archangel. If the suabian is gimpel, which it is said to be, maybe the archangel bronze has been reduced to het state, don't really know and don't know where we'd get a straight answer either. 

Where's Frank when we need him? I think he imported some of the first Suabians into the US.

Bill


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi Bill,

I found a reference on Axel Sell's site that archangel bronze is definitely not an allele of Kite bronze. Thus the K superscript A notation is incorrect. He proposes just using KA.

Thanks for all the info,
Rudolph


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## Lewella (Jun 13, 2009)

One of my newest birds is a Danish Suabian boy. His color is a little off to be show quality according to the woman I got him from. She's based in Washington state at Whitby Wings Aviary. I'm hoping I can get a female with better coloring or breed him somehow to get babies that have a darker chest, whiter wings, and a bit more solid white color on the back and wings. He has a pretty head with the dark face, but his dark chest fades into a red color fairly low on the chest. The only girls I have are white racing homers. Anyone have any ideas for me to improve my Danish Suabian line's color?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

rudolph.est said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> There we go again ... I thought that gimpel WAS archangel bronze! Hehehe, I think I've read the websites by Frank Mosca, Ron Huntley, Tom Barnhart and Robart Magile a hundred times, but still get things wrong. I wish read German better, so I could understand Axel Sell's site.
> 
> ...


*Hi Rudolph,The book BREEDING and INHERITANCE in PIGEONS,by Axel Sell, is written in ENGLISH and sells for around 65 dollars and is worth every cent, JEDDS pigeons supply carries it,* GEORGE


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Thanks George,

I have heard of Axel Sell's book and am an avid reader of his website (I understand a little bit of German). But I live in South Africa, and with postage and the exchange rate as it is, I am afraid I cannot afford the book. It isn't available from any suppliers in the country as far as I have been able to ascertain.

One day, I'll save up and import it though. ;-)

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Interesting thread this one.
Any progress?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I was trying to find out how to make a whiteside in red and also black as I was thinking about putting it on my frillbacks. this is what I was told

"The recessive red whiteside can be made using any recessive red showing
white feathers in the shield and commonly called rosewing or agate. This
gene only expresses on recessive red (red, gold or yellow). It will take 
work to upgrade a rosewing to a full whiteside. The young will feather out all
red and then molt in white feathers.
The spread (black) whiteside is grizzle plus a modifier. It has been named
pseudo tiger grizzle by A. Leiss.
Any white that the bird is going to show in the shield will be present in
the nest."


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Interesting thread this one.
> Any progress?


Sadly, I haven't been able to find any Suabians for sale. But I have started a project to transfer archangel bronze to my homers. I wish to breed homers that have the very intense copper heads of Archangels, and not just a copper breast like the Archangel bronze homers I have seen on line.

Next I'll start a project with frill and toy stencil from oriental frills, and lastly I intend combine the two projects and see whether what I end up with resembles the Suabians in any way.

Its gonna be two long projects though...


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Your theory is that a neck bronze is converted to white by the toy stencil?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

thepigeonkey said:


> I was trying to find out how to make a whiteside in red and also black as I was thinking about putting it on my frillbacks. this is what I was told
> 
> "The recessive red whiteside can be made using any recessive red showing
> white feathers in the shield and commonly called rosewing or agate. This
> ...


What about the rosewings in black pigeons?
I understood that the black whiteshields were the real challenge.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> Your theory is that a neck bronze is converted to white by the toy stencil?


For the suabians and pheasants, no one is sure why they have so much white, but according to the experts, they do have archangel bronze in their make-up, but I don't know whether it is necessary to create the phenotype. There haven't been enough studies.


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