# Can You Help Identify This ?



## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi.........I have a chick with what appears to be like warts around face and beak , can anyone identify this ????
..........and recommend a action plan and a course of treatment ?

Picture Attached


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The bird has pox. There is no treatment for it as it is a viral disease and it has to run it's course. Isolate him from the other birds as it is contagious, make sure he is eating, drinking and provide heat. 
You can apply tea tree oil to the lesions, it will help them dry out faster and eventually they will fall off. Be carefull not to get the tea tree oil into the eyes.
He should be ok and back to normal in 2-3 weeks.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Be very careful not to get the tea tree oil near or in the eye. You can use colloidal silver near the eye as it won't hurt the eye.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

*Good Job Guys*

Many thanks Reti and thank you also Trees !


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## vivagirl (Jun 24, 2008)

You also need to keep an eye on it's throat as the Pox opens the door for canker. I had a round with pox this passed summer. It's not pretty. If the canker appears you need to treat it. If not the bird cannot swallow.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Positive side is, once recovered, they are immune for pox


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm now becoming quite concerned , the pox around the eye of my chicks has increased dramaticly and now one eye is not visible at all on one .I've been bathing the sores with Iodine being careful not to get it in the eye or too close......I've read a bit , most suggest I have the chicks culled , there has been a suggestion you can use Amoxil 25mg ....this is the same used by people right ? will a normal vet supply me with this ? do I crush the tablet or just administer it straight down the throat ??


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## vivagirl (Jun 24, 2008)

*Pox*

The problem you have is Pox is a virus. Antibiotics do nothing for a virus.
After looking I think you should treat the bird for Canker. The pus filled blisters could be Canker. Canker is always present and thrives on your birds weakened immune system. I will tell you a treatment that I was recently told by a pigeon friend in Florida. He takes a permanent magic marker and paints the lesions with it. I haven’t tried it because I haven’t had any pox lately. It will not hurt anything. Good Luck


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks Viva I think the Amoxil was suggested incase infection of the sores.......you might well be right about the Canker........ and at this point I am willing to try anything , do you suggest using Ronidasole in the water or canker tabs ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Whytwings, I myself would go ahead and start treatment with the Amoxil 25mg (this is just about right for a single dose for a pigeon and should be given twice a day), as I don't like the way you mention that the eye has been closed by what is going on and you're right, pox can open the door to bacterial infections developing at the pox site(s). The reason that other infections are sometimes mistaken for canker is that one of the signs we look for, yellow cheesy growths, are signs of other types of infections than canker. Pigeons do not make "pus" the way we do, so their pus, which are spent leukocytes, therefore these spent immune cells appear as a yellow cheesy growths. That being said, as a precaution, I would treat with the canker as well, what type of "canker tabs" do you have?

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

The canker tabs I have are from an avian vet Dr Rob Marshall called "Cank -R-tabs , a multi purpose canker tablet , but I also have a water soluble medication called Turbosole . 

I've just rang my local vet about the amoxil , however they are closed . I hope they will give it to me .....I will try tomorrow .

thanks very much for the info


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I had a look and while there is not a whole lot of information on the Cank-R tabs you say you have, there was a mention that the active ingredient in them is Metronidazole (this is just one mention on a forum) if this is the case, then I would go with these following manufacturer's instructions for use. For some reason I thought you had in hand some Amoxil 25 tabs, if you are going to get a vet to prescribe you an antibiotic I would say to have him prescribe Trimethoprim/Sulfa or Clavamox over Amoxicillin. A good deal of the antibiotics used in veterinary practice are the very same ones used in humans, so many times there are instances of using an antibiotic prescribed for one's self, family or friends when a course of antibiotic treatment is called for, this would include such antibiotics as Cipro, Bactrim, Augmentin and Keflex to name a few (as well as the Amoxicillin you have already mentioned).

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Karyn

I've been in touch with my local vet , they are willing to give some of the antibiotics you mentioned , however they want to be clear that they are giving me the right drug . Being in Australia apparently drugs are called different things yet they can have the same ingredients and end up being the same thing .

(1) can you tell me what is in the CLAVAMOX you mentioned , they have one called AMOXYCLAVAMOX I think she said . If the ingredients are the same they will probably give it to me .

(2) what strength in CLAVAMOX mg ?

(3) Frequency........how many times a day ?

(4) what route will this be ...in the water or straight down the throat

Once they are clear on these instructions they seem to be prepared to give it to me knowing that this will probably be their last chance at recovering and I want to give them every chance I can .

You've been a massive help , can you help me here again please ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Whytwings, Clavamox is a potentiated form of Amoxicillin, which is made by adding clavulanate potassium in combination with Amoxicillin. The clavulanate potassium inhibits bacteria from secreting certain enzymes that makes them resistant to the class of antibiotics Amoxicillin belongs to. So the med you mention, AMOXYCLAVAMOX, sounds like it should be just another name for Amoxicillin + Clavulanate Potassium.

The recommended dosing for a pigeons for this med would be 125mg/kg BID (this means 12.5mg of med for every 100 grams of body weight, every 12 hours), and it would be given orally.

In the mean time, please do start your little one on the Cank-R tabs, if you haven't already, if you have any other questions, please ask, and keep us updated.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks Karyn.......I will get on to it


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

No need to cull,the bird............one of my birds,had these.i dint do anything.........now the lesion has dried off and fallen(in about 4 weeks).now the birdie,is perfectly ok and healthy.One thing,u need to observe is whether ,any lesion are appearing in the throat,then it can be difficult for the bird to feed.anyway,keep it isolated......


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

In humans 'acyclovir' is the drug which we use against most viruses,but i dont know whether it can be used in pigeons...!!!


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

The pox on my baby birds has advanced even further than the first picture ......I took this picture this morning , it's not a pretty sight ........did you birds ever get to this state ??

picture attached


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Whytwings, others may have comments on the severity of the pox part, but by getting this little guy on the Flagyl and the Clavamox you will have done what you really need to do to cover your bases that there are no secondary bacterial, or protozoal issues, that are going unaddressed. Once you have these issues taken care of, in time, any viral part will resolve with your support and care. What I would do though is get some colloidal silver and paint the whole affected area with it twice a day. The nice thing about colloidal silver is there are no worries about any coming in direct contact with the eye itself and there are any number of anecdotal reports that it speeds healing, outside of its noted anti-bacterial and anti-viral properties.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hey Karyn
The little guys have started on their AMOXYCLAV.......Surprisingly for a NON avian veterinary clinic they were very helpful and supportive!

I have never heard of COLLOIDAL SILVER , can you suggest where or what kind of place would sell it ?

Darren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, here is a link to the brand I use you will also find some background information on CS as well: http://www.sovereignsilver.com/silver_why_sovereign.php. Most health food stores carry it, call around to a few, just use a small soft brush or a Q-Tip.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you hand feeding the babies? They are going to have a hard time eating with so much pox around their eyes.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Jay........I am not hand feeding at the moment as the parents are still feeding them , having said that I am watching carefully as they are probably due to stop anyday now . 1 of the two chicks worse affected has lost all vision in one eye and only has partial in the other .....I plan to take over his feeding arrangements tomorrow .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You do know that pox is very contagious, right? Are you not separating the infected birds? How many birds do you have?


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

yeah jay , since identifying it .......I have done a lot of reading about it .

I have over 70 birds.......I have separated 6 birds at this stage and I can only remove birds that I see developing the pox sores . The hen is the only one of the 6 birds secluded that doesn't have the pox sores , however her partner and 2 chicks have the sores , since she was still feeding along with the cock bird I thought it was inevitable that she would have it , but even after approaching 2 weeks in isolation she still has no signs of it and she is going crazy in isolation. The mother bird is one of my babies and I know she hasn't ever had it and since it is so contagious I don't understand why she hasn't developed it


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

boneyrajan.k said:


> In humans 'acyclovir' is the drug which we use against most viruses,but i dont know whether it can be used in pigeons...!!!


It can be used.Not sure about the dose though.
But it is not necessary to use it unless the pox is lifethreatening for ex. if they can't breathe right or if they develop wet pox which can kill them.

I've seen bad pox like this and even worse. They did fine, 5 weeks later they had no signs of ever being sick.

Reti


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Heya Reti

..........the pox sore is totally covering 1 eye of the 2 chicks......I can't even see any sign of the eye ...it's totally covered . I am guessing that the pox sore has situated itself across the lid rendering him blind in that eye . Will this cause any permanent damage to the eye ? or when this horrible sore subsides will he regain full sight ?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

When the pox is gone he will be able to see again. The pox is only on the eyelid so when it falls off he'll be alright.

Reti


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

whytwings said:


> yeah jay , since identifying it .......I have done a lot of reading about it .
> 
> I have over 70 birds.......I have separated 6 birds at this stage and I can only remove birds that I see developing the pox sores . The hen is the only one of the 6 birds secluded that doesn't have the pox sores , however *her partner and 2 chicks have the sores , since she was still feeding along with the cock bird I thought it was inevitable that she would have it , *but even after approaching 2 weeks in isolation she still has no signs of it and she is going crazy in isolation. The mother bird is one of my babies and I know she hasn't ever had it and since it is so contagious I don't understand why she hasn't developed it



I would have thought so too. How are the others doing?


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

My other birds seem to be doing well , however to be honest the past couple of weeks in the loft have been herendous and I was hoping we'd turned the corner but I don't think my problems are over just quite yet . 
I have a pair of W O E tumblers and the cock bird is unwell and I found one of their two chicks dead in the bowl . He has none of the pox sores , so I don't think it's related but something is definately wrong . The hen is fine and the second baby seems ok , however the remaining chick seems terribly hungry , so I am giving him feeds trying to compensate for the cock bird as I don't think he has the energy to feed the remaining chick and tonight I noticed him struggling to lift his leg to scratch himself . I've seen him drinking and eating , but he is very lathargic and to look at him I know something else is up.

I caught him earlt this week after removing the dead chick and I immediately noticed a foul smell from his mouth ....I've treated him and the rest of the birds for canker , lice , mites and round worm.... he seemed to brighten up a bit but it's not the bird I know and I want an avian vet to take a look , but insufficent funds prevent this until next week .


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sorry to hear you have another very sick bird. I always found that when they have the foul smell they have canker. It will take days for him to feel better but good thing he is eating and drinking.
You might want to medicate all your birds for canker. Once it appears in the loft any of your birds can get it.

Reti


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sorry to hear that problems continue to persist. You mat want to add a broad spectrum anti-biotic to his treatment as when they get this weak with one type of illness it opens the door for secondary illness to develop, ie; when they get canker, they can get bacterial issues and when they have bacterial issues, they can get canker.

They sell anti anti-biotic in Australia for birds called Sulfa 3, here is a link for one place that sells it there:

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Pets-Horses/Birds/Bird-Health/AdNumber=AD003872876

I would see if you could get it overnighted to you or even get lucky enough to find a place local to you that sells it, where you could just go and pick some up. With keeping birds, Sulfa meds are a pretty good med to have on hand as they give very good coverage for many types of infections and can be used on quite young birds.

Did you pick up the Clavamox and how much do you have on hand?

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

whytwings said:


> My other birds seem to be doing well , however to be honest the past couple of weeks in the loft have been herendous and I was hoping we'd turned the corner but I don't think my problems are over just quite yet .
> I have a pair of W O E tumblers and the cock bird is unwell and I found one of their two chicks dead in the bowl . He has none of the pox sores , so I don't think it's related but something is definately wrong . The hen is fine and the second baby seems ok , however the remaining chick seems terribly hungry , so I am giving him feeds trying to compensate for the cock bird as I don't think he has the energy to feed the remaining chick and tonight I noticed him struggling to lift his leg to scratch himself . I've seen him drinking and eating , but he is very lathargic and to look at him I know something else is up.
> 
> I caught him earlt this week after removing the dead chick and I immediately noticed a foul smell from his mouth ...*.I've treated him and the rest of the birds for canker , lice , mites and round worm.... *he seemed to brighten up a bit but it's not the bird I know and I want an avian vet to take a look , but insufficent funds prevent this until next week .




What did you use to treat for canker, and for how long?


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hello Karyn

I will get on with ordering the Sulfa , many thanks again for your fine and informative help again .

Yes I did pick up the Clavamox .....I actually took both babies to the veterinary surgery , both chicks were weighed 1 @ 400 grams and the second baby @ 450 grams , as per your instructions the girls worked out a course of Amoxyclav 50 mg tablets 2 x daily . They gave me a course for 5 days , they suggested I only take that amount incase they were not doing the job . I only have 2 tabs left which I will give this morning .

Is 5 days an appropriate course ?.........how many days should I keep giving the Amoxyclav for it to do it's job ?
If required I can go back and get more today if you think 5 days is not enuff. 

Also ......I was walking in the city yesterday where I feed some ferals ....waddling along the street I found a baby feral pigeon , the adults were picking on him and he didn't seem to know what to do with seed . He has all the signs of pox too.....I picked him up ready to take home , but i put him down and was ready to walk away . I don't know if I did the right thing , but I chased him around again and caught him and brought him home and I am treating his sores also . It kinda made sense since I was treating my own birds . he still has some yellow fluff and is as " skinny as a rake "....I have him inside my house with a pure white stray that turned up which can you believe also has pox . I will start a new thread about the white bird as I think it is also sick .

Did I do the right thing taking the baby bird from the city ?........I can release him back if you think I should ?

pictures attached of city feral


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Jay ....I treated the unwell W.O.E Tumbler individually with " Canker R Tabs "
My other birds were treated with " Turbosole 200g " An antiprotozol for Tirchomonas and Giardiainfections in birds ACTIVE INGREDIENTS 100MG/G Ronidasole . It is given in the water and I gave this for 3 days .

These medications are from Avian Vet Dr. Rob Marshall from Sydney 

Darren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, what breed are the pigeons you have, as 400g and 450g for babies is really quite big. The reason I asked about Clavamox is that with the male you have, who you say is not himself and you saw struggling to scratch himself, is that if you had some extra I was going to suggest you start a course of antibiotics on him, as the symptoms you mention could be canker related, but they are more along the lines of something I would associate with bacterial issues.

I think you did the right thing rescuing the baby from the street, especially since as you mention you already have birds undergoing treatment, and it should not be a big problem getting him back to his flock once the pox is cleared up and he has gained some weight (from the photo he really does look like he needed some help). With the white one, what are the symptoms for him, other than the pox?

If you could I would see if you could get some more of the Clavamox from the vet as you may need it to treat the your male and the new while one that came in. And do please order in the Sulfa 3, it's really quite concentrated and will last a number of years and would be a good choice right now for both your male and perhaps the new white one.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for answering. That's good, but if they were in my care I would treat for 5 days anyway. Good luck with them, and I think it was great of you to bring the sick baby home. I couldn't have left it out there. You did the right thing.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok ......I will go down and see if they will give me some more . The two babies 400 g/450g are both Blue Bars racers , they are really healthy except for the bad pox .

In all honesty ......because my attention had been drawn to the pox situation.....the white stray may have been in my loft for a couple days before I noticed it ....I have a few whites myself . I tried to evict it , but it just came straight back......No probs , there is a home here for her if I can get it well !

The white stray is now inside the house in a speparate room from my City Feral . The white stray is not as lively as she was when I caught her in the loft ......her pox sores are now advancing to above the lid of the eye . 
I'm not sure she is eating too well ........just quietly perching in the cage ....I guess she is doing similar to the W O E cock bird ........but he looks worn out , you can see it in his eyes , however the white stray is bright in the eyes . Her droppings are dark , almost like gelatine / jelly like . Unfortunately I am coloured blind and I can't give an accurate colour description, they don't seem to be formed at all , however I took some photo's just now of her and the droppings before cleaning her cage . I also admistered a Canker tablet down her throat .

pictures attached : White Stray


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, let's start with you male, because he seems the worse off. I would give him 1/2 of one of the 50mg Clavamox tablets now, 1/2 again in 12 hours then for the next pill I would give him 1/4 for each of the next 12 hour periods, this will load his system and buy you three days of him on antibiotics to either try and overnight in some of the Sulfa 3 or have the vet hopefully dispense some more. I would also start him on the Cank-R tablets (Metronidazole) at the same time as well.

With the white one you have done the right thing on getting the Cank-R tablet into him. The droppings show that he has/is not eating as they are bile droppings with little to no solid fecal matter. I would not force feed this bird right now at all, but provide water and seeds (please take out any of the larger seeds from the mix, corn, peas, un-hulled wheat and so on, in case it is having digestive problems, once we know it is digesting smaller food well we can add back larger items). I would also like to see this bird started on a broad spectrum antibiotic as soon as possible.

Thanks for confirming their weights, those are pretty good sized babies .

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Karyn .....I just returned from the vet , they gave me another 20 CLAVAMOX .
Thanks for the dosage tips for the unwell tumbler . I had every intention of giving half a tab as he is quite light in weight and will follow your instructions .

I will also start the white bird on it too and do as you suggested regarding the seed !

Oh boy .....I am so glad that I discovered PT , you and many others have been so very helpful and for that I am MOST GRATEFUL

Darren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

No problem, make sure they stay well hydrated (drinking well) as this is very important for them both. Keep us updated.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Heya Karyn *A bit of an update*

The West Of Egland Tumbler cock bird has made a dramatic improvement , he is now spinning round in the bowl coo inng and preening his mate .

There is an *unpleasant* side to this update , their remaing chick has come to grief !
I ignored my gut feeling and am now paying the price ....I should have brought him inside and hand reared him , but I didn't thinking he would be best left out there while mum was still feeding him and I would supplement his feeds .

I went out into the loft to do the evening feed last night and I found him lying broken on the floor , it's injuries are significant and it makes me feel physically sick to see him in the shape he is - I can't bare it .....he want's to rear up with both feet pushed out in front and roll over onto his back . Checking him this morning indicates he has deteriorated , it appears there is some involuntary , contorted movement of the neck ....I think I know what I have to do here 

Prince says "thank you "


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

*The Pure White Stray*

Karyn ......the white stray has lost an awful lot of weight . I have observed her drinking ok , but just picking up the small grains and not ingesting them .

There is definately something going on in the mouth and the pox sores have advanced and are larger , not much change with the droppings , appears they are very watery with just a drop of faecal matter .

I am treating her with the 3 day course of " Canker R Tabs " as per Dr . Marshalls instructions for their use . As you directed she is also receiving the quarter of *CLAVAMOX* each 12 hours .

It has to be nearly 3 days since she's eaten and it concerns me , do you think it's a good idea to syringe her some hand rearing mix ???...It's full of vitamins and minerals she could probably do with .

what are your thoughts ???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, you are doing the best you can and we all second guess ourselves looking after our birds, but glad to hear your male has made a dramatic improvement.

With the baby, when they are severely dehydrated they can display symptoms as you describe. For now get him inside, get him set up like in a donut, like in this link; http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6, and get 7-8mL of re-hydration fluid into him. You can make this be adding 1 teaspoon of sugar, 1/8 teaspoon of salt and a pinch of bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) to so slightly warm water. In 1-1 1/2 hours get the same amount into him and 2 hours later the same, then three hours later the same again. Warmth and re-hydration can sometimes make a surprising difference in them.

Keep him warm in a darkened space and hopefully he will respond.

Keep us updated and good luck,

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

*The City Stray*

My little mate I found wandering the city is doing just great ......he has free run of the house and loves to sit on the kitchen table watching the silver sharks in in the 6 footer aquarium . He's eating and drinking well and his pox sores are being treated along with the others with *colloidal silver*

Should I be treating them with just the *colloidal silver* or should I be using a combination of *Iodine* and also *Tea Tree Oil*. I've just been using *colloidal silver  thus far .

I forgot to mention the baby W O E fell from over 2 metres , the tumblers chose the highest nesting point .

Darren*


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, I would just continue with the colloidal silver. Sorry, in my prior post I mis-understood what you where getting at, I thought when said lying broken on the floor, you meant he was completely broken down looking, not that he fell and was hurt. Please do as I said prior, get him set up in a donut, but the need for fluids will not be as great, get some into him and in a few hours give him another amount, not the amounts I set out before. We'll give him a chance to get over any shock he may be in, then we can give him a good going over to look for injury. Can you post a photo of him?

With the white stray, yes, we should get a bit of food into her, but not too much at first, we want to make sure things make their way through her GI just fine. If you are comfortable feeding her give her 5-7mL of the formula and lets see how that works out.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

*Baby W.O.E Tumbler*

Karyn it made sense to do a donut thingy which I had alread done ....he breaks it wanting to extend his legs stretched right out . His head is pointing to the ceiling and he is doing a slight rolling motion , almost the same action as if someone was trying to roll their eye balls if that makes any sense .

Picture Attached


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, let's at least give his a legs and keel a quick going over for now. I want you to surround his leg with your four brought together finger tips (not the pinky) and start high as you can slowly move your fingers down, feeling for anything broken. Compare one leg against the other if you think you feel something not right. Sometimes in a fall they can break their keel bone, so feel down both sides and make sure it feel solid and nothing "flopping" from side to side. Some re-hydration should help with any shock, just keep him warm and comfortable for now, I am going to PM Pidgey to have a look in on this thread for his opinion.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

I can't feel anything broken .....but he immediately breaks away when I touch him . It's just a hunch but I have a feeling it's something more than the legs ...2 metres is quite a fall.....could his neck be broken. I can't place him in any other postions....he just wants to roll over onto his back , he is in quite a bad way !


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, if his neck was broken, I don't think he would still be with us. Two meters is about 6 1/2 feet, and while a fair height, most times when this happens it is not a height that would usually kill a baby this age. He obviously has injured himself and is in some shock and perhaps a good deal of pain that accounts for some of his odd body movements. Just let him find the position he wants to be in right now and don't try and arrange his position. I am glad you didn't feel anything obviously broken, let's give him a bit of time.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Concussion? Or are the symptoms the reason he fell out of the nest in the first place? (that happens). I seem to remember hearing that some tumblers are born (hatched) with some genetic disorders where their nervous system does an extreme version of the reason that they tumble in the first place.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If his neck was broken, his legs would be limp.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do we know whether or not he was a perfectly normal nestling before this?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just looking at it, though, I'd tend to say it's "vestibular", and mostly likely in the brain. Frankly, it'd be best to treat for concussion as well as for a bacterial infection of the nervous system.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Vestibular", by the way, is essentially the system that gives us the sense of balance, with component parts all the way from the inner ear to the brain. There are several ways that it can go wrong from inner ear infections to lightning storms in the brain not unlike epileptic events. Pathologies (things causing the disease/illness/problem) can range from viral to bacterial to genetic.

Or... it can be due to an injury.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, why don't you start this little guy on 1/4 of the Clavamox tablets (12.5mg) you have twice a day and also something for inflammation and pain. Do you think you can check with the pharmacy where you are at and see if they sell children's liquid (pediatric suspension) Ibuprofen, here a a popular brand is Children's Motrin and it has 100mg of Ibuprofen in each 5 mL (1 tsp) of syrup. If you can find this medicine (it must be Ibuprofen, not Tylenol/Acetaminophen or Aspirin) and at this concentration. You can give your little guy 1 drop (1 single drop) every 12 hours for pain and inflammation.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Pidgey

My bet him falling out the nest was because he was chasing his father or mother for food . I had sat and observed what was going on before I decided to supplement his feeds , the cock bird had been unwell and not feeding . I had been bringing him in of an evening and feeding him ...he was a normal hungry baby flapping his wings wildly chasing & nuzzling my fingers and hands for food , so definately a *normal* nestling
before the drop. I measured the drop , it was 7 foot .


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hey Karen ....I will chase down what you have suggested and see how it goes .

RE: broken neck ......I wasn't sure if it was possible for a bird to live depending where the break was as with some humans cases . his neck at the moment is hyper-extended and is resting on his back , his breathing is also very rapid .


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you count the breaths per minute? Usually when they've got that many feathers, they don't fall so much as flutter down. The way they're built, they're actually VERY tough. But we still can't know whether it's one or the other if the father is sick--he could easily have passed something on to this little guy. In the end, I suppose, it doesn't matter because both treatments can be given at the same time with no problem.

But I don't like the idea of him being in that state of opisthotonos (the type of seizure-like tenseness) and breathing rapidly at the same time.

Pidgey


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Pidgey
I am at work and on a break at the moment , when I get home in the AM I'll try and do the count for you . Before leaving for work tonight he was less responsive than he had been earlier in the day , rapid breathing , eyes closed and not responding to touch 

Darren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, I am sorry to hear he is less responsive. Is he producing anything from his back end, any droppings at all... if so, what do they look like...and did you manage to get a bit of fluids into him?

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Karyn....I was surprised there wasn't much in the way of droppings at all...is this due to shock ?

I did manage to get some fluids down.....I went very gently and slowly with an eye dropper and he began to make noises as if it was going down the wrong way .


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He's still with us, huh? The Big Book tells that opisthotonos can occur from "cerebrovascular accidents and ischemic infarction". Sometimes, it helps to diagnose if you can discover the exact medical terminology for the symptoms because that's how indexing works in serious veterinary literature (and all medical books). Anyhow, I think I'd be real careful giving anything orally without using a long tube-feeding apparatus--the chances of aspiration (inhaling food, water or crop contents) are just too high. He's probably not really "all there" at the moment and might have very little control of his ability to swallow properly.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Possibly, but a more likely scenario might be some kind of internal injuries which may be causing internal swelling and hence blockage. Do you think you could post up a photo of whatever it is he is producing? Hold off on putting anything more down him (except the single drop of children's Ibuprofen) to we ascertain what is coming out the back end.

Also, if you could place a plain white paper towel under him, so you could smear his dropping(s) a bit with a finger, if they are really dark in color, to see whether they are very dark green or more black, black would indicate blood that has made its way into the GI tract from internal bleeding.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hello Karyn & Pidgey

A brave little bird , but unfortunately he lost the battle for life . This one for me cuts a little deeper as I ignored my gut feeling to bring him inside and hand rear him , an unpleasant lesson learnt !

thank you both for your fine efforts !

Regards

Darren


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm so sorry to hear this, Darren. My gut was telling me that we weren't going to win this one with those symptoms. Keep us posted on the father.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, I was hoping this would not be the news I would hear when I got home late this evening. He certainly was a cute little guy, but when on top of his other symptoms you said he was not really producing any droppings, I knew we were in a tough spot with him. Please accept my condolences for your loss and please don't beat yourself up too bad, we all ones that we second guess ourselves about.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks to you both !

I now have to turn my attention back to the 2 stray birds I have inside ......My stray that I found in the heart of the city skinny with servere pox now has something going on in *his right eye* . He had an embarressing mishap yesterday which could have killed him , but the problem is his eye is becoming fluidy and this fluid is even bubbling a little bit in the corner of the eye , you know .......like when the odd person you come across speaks and saliva catches in the corner of their mouth and it bubbles up a bit and you just want to tell them to wipe it away ....sorry but thats the only way to explain it * chuckles *

Is there anything around the house I can use to bath it with or from the pharmacy ?.....admittedly I am zapped for cash with what I've had going on this last week . 
My dog had surgery on his eye last year and they gave me some ointment , altho I've hunted everywhere I still can't find it *YET* If I do find it , is it possible I could use it ?

Darren


Picture Attached


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

By the way ........he is constantly turning his head wiping his eye on his back , so it must be bothering him.

I didn't realize just how bad his pox was until yesterday......it's visible in his wings when I flare them out , poor little bugga even has it on his vent !


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, I don't think it is painful for him, but I am sure is irritating in that it probably feel like some has flown in his eye and he can just wipe it out, kind of like when a piece of fluff from preening gets in their eye. I would get a small, soft artist's brush and paint the affected area a few times a day with colloidal silver. Make sure you pour a bit out and don't not dip directly into the bottle, this hopeful also help clean away the bit of bubbling you speak of. The ointment for your dog could be used, but if we do use the ointment, it will lower the effectiveness of the colloidal silver because ointments are petrolatum based, it will act as a barrier to the colloid silver if we tried to use them together. In case we decide to try the ointment, is it an antibacterial one, what are the ingredients,? What is going on with the white stray you have?

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Karyn......I will keep up with the Colloidal silver and as soon as I can locate the ointment I will let you know as to what the ingredients are .

The white stray has lost a lot of weight , having said that she is drinking well and I have observed her starting to eat as of yesterday which was a relief to see and her droppings have changed from that very dark jelly like to a loose watery lighter colour.
There is something happening in her throat . You'd have to say it's Canker or at least thats what it looks like , she doesn't look well and doesn't move around a lot , even tho she has free run of the house .

.....for the last 3 days she has been given 1 Canker R Tab each morning and 1/4 of the 50 mg CLAVAMOX twice a day . I was hoping the Canker R Tabs would have had a quicker effect by now ........and I hope also that it was ok to combine both the canker tab and the amoxyclav in the A M ?.........I gave them 30 mins apart form each other .

I guess I'll know the results of the 3 rd canker tab in the A M . ........Dr Marshalls " pigeon Medicine " hand book suggests Canker R Tabs 1-3 days . 

Darren



I will try and get a pic of down her throat and a dropping


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, I wouldn't mind increasing the dose on the Clavamox to 1/2 a tablet (25mg) every 12 hours and I know there was not a whole lot of information on the Cank-R tabs, but does it say on the bottle how many mg are in each pill? It is not a problem to give the meds at the same time. Also, I believe you mentioned you had some Ronidazole on hand, what form is it in, what strength does it say on the bottle?

Please post up a photo of any fresh droppings to have a look and I don't know if it is possible, but getting a firm weight on this little one would be good to be able to track progress.

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Karyn.......I will up the dose of *CLAVAMOX* 1/2 tab starting this morning.
Unfortunately I can't tell you what the mg of the " Canker R Tabs " are as they were given to me last year by a friend when I was in need , so I don't have the original bottle they came in . I've been to the agents site " http://toploft.com.au " and I have gone thru the hand book of Dr. Marshall but it doesn't say the mg there either . 

The othe Canker treatment I have is called *TURBOSOLE 200g* " An anttiprotozoal for Trichomonas and Giardia in birds . ACTIVE INGREDIENTS 100mg/g *Ronidasole* . It comes in a powder form and is mixed in water , 1 teaspoon per 2 Litres of water . The canker r tabs from what i understand allow you to treat birds individually rather than the whole flock .

I went ahead and gave her a 4th Canker R Tab this morning just incase she may have shaken her head and the tablet flew out without me noticing . she's doing it a lot with seed , she's keen enuff to eat but is having probs gobbling them down and then shakes her head and they come flying out .

These lumps in her throat really haven't subsided any which is a bit of concern to me . If I can get some help today I will put my photography skills to the test and see if I can get a clear picture of what is happening in her throat . I will try and get some other scales ....mine were very different from the vets , so much so that they asked me to return home and bring the two " pox sore " babies in so they could weigh them .


Picture Attached

Hmmmmm.......I've not encountered this before , but it seems I have exceeded my quota and I can't attach the picture of the dropping Karyn , even after reducing the file size.
so I will see if I can add the picture to my " album " of my pigeons on my profile and see how I go .


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Heya Karyn........I'm approaching the 11 hour mark after administering the 4th canker tab .....I believe there has been an increase in the mouth of the white stray which is unusual , past experience using these tabs shows good results in birds I've given them to before which leads me to ask the question .....can pox sores be in the mouth ?
The sores on her face and above both eyes have also incresed in size . her beak is slightly open which also indicates whatever is in her mouth is growing . 
For the first time she wandered down to the kitchen tonight.....she is ferociously hungry but these things in her mouth prevent her swallowing them on the first attempt , having said that , she is managing to get some down and is drinking really really well .

Darren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, we can make up a concentrated form of the Ronidazole to dose individually from the powder you have. Get a cooking teaspoon (a measuring spoon and not a common flatware teaspoon) and measure a heaping teaspoon of the powder (do not compact). Get a knife and sweep across the top to level, now dump the teaspoon onto the top of a small mirror, or shiny magazine cover, and divide this evenly into 5 small heaps, keep one and put the other 4 back into the bottle. You will have approximately 1 gram (100mg) of Ronidazole. Add this to 5mg (1 teaspoon) of honey, stir in well, let sit 20 minutes and stir again. You will now have a 2% suspension to dose with (20mg/mL). I want you to dose this little guy with a first dose of 0.40cc (8mg). There after, dose her 0.20cc (4mg) every 24 hours for 5 days and we'll see how he is doing in 5 days. Continue with the Cank-R tabs (Metronidazole) at the same time and of course the Clavamox.

Photos would be very helpful and a weight as well, as I am just guessing right now at a weight for her for meds and when they are like this it really is helpful to track their weight each day. You can try hand feeding her very small bits of whole wheat bread, slightly moistening them may help in swallowing, here is a clip of how; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow. If she is not getting enough food on her own we may have to teach you to tube feed (if you don't already know how), do you have, or could you get a small can/bag of hand feeding formula for baby birds?

Yes, they can get pox in the mouth and throat, but this is what is called "wet pox" and looks like small fluid filled blisters, not usually like the yellowish lesions you have shown around the eyes. 

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Karyn
........are you able to tell me 0.40cc would be on a syringe mark ? and the same for 0.20 cc . I can no longer get a canker tab down her throat and it would appear she can no longer get seed down either . 

I have a box of hand rearing food which I think I managed to get a decent amount down tonight by syringe .

I have never tube fed a bird before , however I have hand reared by syringe only .
I'm not quite sure how I am going to navigate a tube thru these lumps in her throat , but I would be willing to give it a go .

Darren


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, on a 1cc (1mL) syringe 0.40 would be to the fourth line, this would be a little less than 1/2 a 1cc syringe and 0.20 would be to the 2nd line, this would be a little less than 1/4 of a 1cc syringe.

If this little one can no longer get any food at all down past the lumps we will have to tube feed her. We can also add meds to some fluids, if need be, and medicate her this way as well. In the meantime, you could add some honey/sugar to her drinking water to help a bit with energy (2 teaspoons/250mL, add a pinch of salt as well).

Here are a some links on what tube feeding involves, we should not delay getting the things together for this (since you have other birds this would be a life saving technique to know in any event). You will need some baby bird hand feeding formula as well.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=549173&postcount=37

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=549174&postcount=38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIqHRKeIS8&NR=1
(in the above video clip ignore everything except left hand finger positions, how the head is gently held and restrained and his two fingers pinch/hold open the beak to allow a tube to be inserted, while the ring and pinky fingers support/brace the back of the neck)

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/health.html (in this link you will find instruction for feeding a hookbill bird, pigeons make much easier patients as they do not bite and the way their mouth opens offers more access. Pay attention to the way the tube is "twirled" as it is eased down the esophagus. Although the instructor use a stainless steel needle, the technique would be the same for a shrink tube or catheter, or silicone tube from a tropical fish store.)

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483617&postcount=37
(another set of instructions and comments about 3/4s' of the way down in this post)

In the first link where Pidgey shows a syringe and tube set-up using heat shrink tubing, to show how a feeding set-up should look. This set-up should normally work very well, but I have not used it, so I don't know if it will be stiff enough to open up or break through some blockages, so it may be best to see if you get a No.8 or No.10 French catheter, it will look like in this link; http://trade.indiamart.com/details.mp?offer=1562257, with this we can shorten it down and cut a bevel end on it to help ease its way through any blockage.

If you can't find a catheter, perhaps you can find some fine silicone tubing from a pet store, used for tropical fish tanks, around 4mm/ 3/16", and we can adapt that. And as a last resort we can always make something like in this post; http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507135&postcount=4. Please do try and get the photos up of her mouth area.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hello Karyn

Well.........Unfortunate again , but my white stray died this morning in my mothers hands . I was really hoping she would make it . A picture is probably a bit late but I managed to take this clear shot after she had died , you might be able to confirm for me what I was up against ?

The city stray has become very unwell also ....I am expecting that to die shortly also .

Darren


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hard to say, but that might have been a "wet pox", sometimes called "diphtheritic pox". That's the very, very, VERY bad kind of pox. I've never personally seen it.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Darren, I am sorry to hear White Stray did not make it, I have been thinking about her and wondering how things were going. I personally have not seen a mouth presenting like this before, could be as Pidgey says, a very bad case of wet pox. Well, I always believe where there is life there is hope, what is going on with City Stray that you don't thing he will make it?

Karyn


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

The city stray was such a pleasure to have wandering round the house , such a happy little thing , but the last couple of days he's become very quiet , fluffed up , lost his appetite after being taught to eat seed for himself . I've looked in on him an hour ago and he's laying in his bowl limp .

I've just checked him now ........and he has also died .

Heck ......2 in 1 day .....lucky me !

An update with the West Of England Cock bird ..........He's recovered and once again is a happy , healthy looking bird again 

Thanks again Karyn and thanks also pidgey .

Darren


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

I forgot to mention , the pox babies that got this thread started are progressing well......it sure is taking a while to clear but with every new day the sores are drying out and they are getting more vision as this happens.......it's a slow process but the main thing is they are improving .

I will keep them isolated with their parents until the sores go and they have complete vision in both eyes , but as they are now and having been isolated for 3 weeks , do you think it would still be contagious to my other birds ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

whytwings said:


> I forgot to mention , the pox babies that got this thread started are progressing well......it sure is taking a while to clear but with every new day the sores are drying out and they are getting more vision as this happens.......it's a slow process but the main thing is they are improving .
> 
> I will keep them isolated with their parents until the sores go and they have complete vision in both eyes , but as they are now and having been isolated for 3 weeks , do you think it would still be contagious to my other birds ?


Darren, wow, I am sorry to hear City Stray has now left us as well, thanks for trying for them and giving them comfort and shelter. I certainly am glad to hear that your WOE has made a splendid recovery.

According to this government site: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html , avian pox, a strain of fowl pox like pigeon pox is, the virus can survive months to years in the dried scabs. So I myself would wait until the scabs are well healed and have fallen off before re-introducing them back in with others. By the way, once recovered they will be immune to any possible future infection from this virus.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think they're no longer contagious by way of direct contact when the lesions have all dried up. However, if a mosquito were to bite them, get scared off before finishing and then bite another uninfected bird, that bird could/would get it. Contagiousness is, in this case, kind of a complicated thing.

Sorry to hear about your city stray.

Pidgey


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