# HELP - A baby pigeon refuse to eat!



## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi,

I found a baby pigeon, about 16-17 days old (see attached picture). He does not look injured or anything but on the other hand, he does not move a lot when I take it out of it's box. I'm trying to feed it with baby's formula (there is no Kitees exact where I live) through every method known on the Internet (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pidgie/syringe_method.htm, http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPijBotlFeedg.htm) but no luck.  He just refuses to eat.
I also tried to put his beak in a teaspoon full of formula, he sucked a little but than stopped... 

Please advise how do I force it to eat before it's too late (he hasn't eaten for at least 48 hours).


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

He looks somewhat bare arounnd his face/neck. Maybe he's been pecked at, maybe he has a health problem.

Is the inside of his beak/mouth fairly pink, and clear looking?

Youngsters can also be fed with dog biscuits in small pieces softened in water (puppy chow?). 

Another soft but healthy food is frozen peas and corn (not tinned), thawed in hot water for about 20 mins, or pea-size moistened pieces of day old wholemeal bread.

If pushed toward the back of the mouth a little to (the bird's) right side, the items should be swallowed. The beak ahould be opened gently, as they are still maybe pliable at that age, with thumb and forefinger. Easier if two persons involved or else wrapping baby in a soft towel to keep still.

For water, if he is not drinking, you can try gently pushing the beak (below the nostrils) into a small pot of water to see if he knows how to drink. If not, little droplets toward the end of his beak from a dropper or spoon.

Can you tell us where you are in case there is a member around the area, or a known rehabber who will deal with baby pigeons?

John


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

You mentioned that you have tried feeding him the formula from a teaspoon. He appears to be to young to be eating on his own. He needs to be tube fed or syringe feed the formula. There are many different ways of hand feeding. I'll try and find someone who can provide the links to the procedures.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This thread in our Resources Forum may be of some help to you: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pictures-amp-videos-of-tube-feeding-16235.html

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You said that the syringe and balloon method hasn't worked. Often they won't eat if the formula is too cool. It shoud be heated to 39 degrees celcius. That is just a bit warmer than our blood, so if you put a drop on your wrist it should feel warm but not hot. Try easing his beak in the little slit and moving the syringe back and forth a bit.

What formula are you using? Human baby formula would not be suitable, but you could mix porridge oats with warm water to make a smooth paste.

If he hasn't had anything to eat or drink for 48 hours he will be dehydrated. Mix 1 pint warm water with 1/2 teaspoon salt and 1/2 tablespoon glucose, honey or sugar. Dip his beak in in an try to persuade him to drink, oterwise trickle the solution on the edge of his beak. Once he starts drinking wait a few hours, then soak dog biscuits in water until they are soft, open the pigeon's beak and pop them into his mouth.

If you let us know where you are, we will know what foods may be available to you.

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Baby pigeon - the saga continues*

Hi again,

Thank you for your prompt replies.

First of all, I am located in Limassol, Cyprus. If you have someone around here that can help me, that would be highly appreciated.

Second, I tried again this morning with the baby's formula (it's called Frisolac comfort), heated to a warm temperature as suggested here. I made it liquid, and gave it to drink from a small cup. The good news are that the baby drank some (almost 1/3 of an espresso cup).

I also tried to give it some water with salt and sugar, but it didn't liked it too much... 

I tried the beak opening technique, but again no luck. It won't open it for me and just gets angry. 

I watched some pigeon feeding videos on YouTube and was amazed to see that the babies are keen to eat and get angry when the food goes away (they actually chase the bottle!). My baby is not so keen to eat. I need to force it and than he gets angry at me (start squeaking angrily). It also does not move a lot and stays at the same spot I leave him. Only when I lift it so it's feet are not touching the ground it starts to squeak and move it's wings.

*Please help me*. Let me know what can I do to convince it to eat. Today I don't have access to any pet shop to buy other food, as it is a bank holiday her. At home I only have some cat food if that means anything... no dog food.

thx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that it has started eating, you are doing well. But if the formula that you are using is for *human* babies, please stop using it. Pigeons can't digest it.

Cat food, watered down and made into a warm mush will do if nothing else is available. Do you have anything like Polenta, frozen peas, fresh or frozen sweet corn, brown granary bread? Any of those, mixed with warm water, will make a digestible meal.

Pigeons will usually squeak with hunger, sometimes in fear, never with anger.

If you can't prise his mouth open then place the beak in your closed fist, or between your fingers. Sometimes that will encourage them to open their mouths in the expectation of food.

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

cyro51 said:


> I am so glad that it has started eating, you are doing well. But if the formula that you are using is for *human* babies, please stop using it. Pigeons can't digest it.
> 
> Cat food, watered down and made into a warm mush will do if nothing else is available. Do you have anything like Polenta, frozen peas, fresh or frozen sweet corn, brown granary bread? Any of those, mixed with warm water, will make a digestible meal.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that Cynthia. 
I guess his diarrhea is because of the baby formula....  I will stop using it now and will try something else. 

Can I use canned mashed peas? or canned corn? I have those at home... Or maybe I should cook them myself so it will be fresh?

I tried the thing with the fist and two fingers, but it doesn't work. I'll do one of the mashes you suggested and will try to feed it again.

thx!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I worry about the additives in canned vegetables, if you can find raw corn or raw peas that would be better, no need to cook them. One of our members uses canned corn and the pigeon tolerated it.

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

cyro51 said:


> I worry about the additives in canned vegetables, if you can find raw corn or raw peas that would be better, no need to cook them. One of our members uses canned corn and the pigeon tolerated it.
> 
> Cynthia


If I don't cook it, how do I mash it?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You can grate fresh corn using a cheese grater. Or put it in a liquidiser with a bit of warm water. The fresh peas can also go in a liquidiser.

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

cyro51 said:


> You can grate fresh corn using a cheese grater. Or put it in a liquidiser with a bit of warm water. The fresh peas can also go in a liquidiser.
> 
> Cynthia



ah.... what exactly is a liquidizer?


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

oh, ok. I found an explanation... thx.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

if you have one of these 









you can take pigeon seed mix and grind it up finely as well, then let it soak in warm water for a little while.

if you can't find seed mixes, you can also try making a mixture of brown rice, wheat germ, lentils, peas, corn (or polenta), stone ground wheat, couscous,... grinding that up and adding some warm water to it for some time as well.

does the baby seem hungry and alert more now? Is there any blood? If you feel his breast is the bone down the middle of it sharp or does it have lots of meat on both sides?

I noticed his eye looked foggy in the first picture, does his eye always look like that? or was it just the picture.

Also I am not sure what the weather is like where you are, but if he would probably love to have some tissue or a soft towl wrapped in a U shape under him so he can cuddle up into it. He'd probably also like to have some warm heat from a heating pad under his box or whatever you have him in, since he's not feeling well and eating, his body won't have to burn as many calories to keep him warm.

Try wrapping him loosely in a towel, with just his head poking out, and holding him gently close up against you while you try to feed him, this may calm him down some.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John asked in his first post about the babies mouth inside. I don't see where you responded. That bare look about the face and neck has in the past indicated canker. Please look in this babies mouth and make sure it's nice and pink. 
Also, don't know if you ran across this video while on YouTube........this is the way I feed babies. Might work for you too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJe6y8EYQRg


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Thx*

Thanks Gingerpoo, that's great help!

I have this exact model at home and I will now go to liquidize anything I can find from your list. 

There is no blood on the baby and he is now pretty active, running around in circles in his box and trying to jump out from time to time.... 

I don't thing his eyes are too foggy. Please see the attached pics.

I think he is very hungry. Last time I fed him he soaked his entire beak in the liquid and drank like crazy, finishing 2/3 of an espresso cup! The chest bone is quite sharp and not a lot of meat around it. I guess it will get better after I give him the correct food... 

As for the weather, don't worry about it. it's hot and sunny all the time. about 91 degrees (33 Celsius), so I don't think I should warm it more than that...

Thanks again for the help, I'll keep you posted on developments.


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi Lovebirds,

You are lucky to be able to open these babies mouth... I couldn't do it. Therefore, I don't know the color inside.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hitchhiker, please try to have a look in the mouth. I have a baby woodpigeon with a bare throat and he has canker...if your baby has canker he will need treatment urgently.

PM me your address and I will post some meds to you immediately, just in case you need them. This video shows how I open a pigeon's mouth. It really isn't difficult.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Cynthia


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

one more thing to add to the mix of possible things you might have is oats.
and yes please take a quick peek into the mouth. its kinda like opening a cat or dogs mouth but takes way less effort. use your thumb and pointer finger and apply pressure on each side of his beak where his beak and head meet (sides of his mouth) and then the other hand will slip a finger into the opening at the front. the video above did a nice job of demonstrating this process.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thanks for caring for this baby. As someone mentioned, he is not squeaking in anger at you, so no worries there (they only squeak in hunger, excitement, or fear). I know you tried the balloon method, my method is a tiny bit different but I have found amazing results with it:

http://picasaweb.google.com/awrats3333/BabyFeeding

Of course that is if you have the baby bird formula. I don't see that it was mentioned, but you can also soak high quality dog biscuits or dog kibble in warm water until soft (usually takes about an hour) and feed him bits of this, short-term. Using your grinder, you can make a mix of this if you have it, along with some of the peas, and some birdseed if you have any. When I have to open a reluctant beak, I very gently use my fingernail (they're pretty short) or thumbnail to pry open the beak. After a few days of this, he will likely get the idea and start opening his beak for you. You can also try using damp fingers around his beak to trigger him to open it, and pop the food in. I hope he catches on and you are able to have an easier time of it with him, soon. And of course, I hope he feels better and gets some meat on him.


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*More*

Thanks for all the great advices. I learn a lot from all of you. Please keep going. what may seems elementary for you, is a whole new world for me.

As for the little baby, I mixed the following:
1. Brown peas
2. White peas
3. Barley
4. Hummus
5. Birds mix

I grind it to dust and than mixed with some olive oil and warm water (didn't let it soak for a while though.... ) I tried to feed the baby with the paste both last night and this morning (it's GMT-2 here). Last night he ate some but this morning, again, he refuses to eat. Is there anything else I should add to make it better? 
Also, how often should I feed him? how much? do they eat at night? do they sleep?

I'll try the beak opening technique I saw here and will report the inside of his beak.

As for his eyes, someone asked if they are foggy. I checked with better light this morning and I afraid they are...  What does this mean?

Please share with me any piece of information you think may help this baby!


thx


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*More updates*

ok, I managed to force open the little beak. It's all pink inside. I don't know how canker looks like (it sounds terrible, by the way) but it looks ok to me.

As for the feeding, the baby still does not want to eat. I tried to open the beak as shown in Cyro video, but it keeps shaking his head from side to side and back and forth, making this impossible. Eventually, I managed to put some food in his mouth with a syring (this time I soaked it in hot water for about 30 minutes before feeding). He ate about 6-7cc of the paste.

Can someone please tell me how much do they eat in every meal, and how often should I feed him?

As for the squeaking, it does not sound like excitement to me. It's probably fear. I expected him to get used to me already (I try to feed him for the past 3 days already...) Would that ever happen?


Thanks


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

from the pictures you posted and what i can see..., his pupils look very dilated for the amount of light around him (I may be very wrong, the pictures are a bit blurry).. I am concerned he might be blind, and i would recommend taking him into a dark-ish room and then shining a flashlight into his eyes very briefly to see if his pupils contract.

He may also just have an eye infection which might be part of the reason his eyes may look foggy.

Fingers crossed.

is the hummus you used just the garbanzo bean? or is it the paste (already been made) because the prepared hummus may have a lot of salt and other things added to it.

Really the best thing would be to find a sterile syringe to feed him with. sometimes pet stores will carry them, or you might be able to go to a medical place and ask for one and explain your situation.
One other option.. would be getting a baby's 'nasal aspirator' or 'snot sucker'









cutting the tip back a little and soaking it in nice warm water each time you use it, and then using it like a syringe, putting the tip into the birds mouth (preferably into the back of his mouth) and letting it dribble out slowly or very gently squeezing it.

as far as him shaking his head.. try cupping the back of his head with say your right palm.. and use your right hand fingers to keep the beak open, this should give you a little more control. hope this makes sense. Also when feeding.. try wrapping him up in a light towel and hold him close. (I find its easiest to sit down, and place him on your lap and hold him up against your stomach

here is a picture of what trichomaniasis/canker looks like

















and if by some chance you do see these nasty yellow chunky things in his mouth ever, dont try to pick them off.. they can start to bleed.


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi Gingerpoo

First of all, the hummus I used is beans, not paste. 

I do use a syringe for the feeding now. It was sterile when I first used it, but I guess it's not so sterile now... Anyway, I hold his back and wings with my left hand, putting gentle pressure so he wont move. Than I lean the right hand side of his beak on my left thumb and with my right hand I gently open the left side of the beak with the tip of the syringe. Once the tip is in, I push the syringe gently and let the food come out into his mouth. I than take it out, release the baby and let him swollow. I repeat that until he eats the entire content of the syringe.

As for the eyes - I don't think he is blind. He keeps staring at me and if I turn him around he turns his head (at a frighting angle, that is) and looks directly at me. I will try to do the dark room test you suggested, but I don't think blindness is the case here.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

just be sure not too give him too much at once cause he can breath it into his lungs and get sick. so just little amounts at a time.
it sounds to me like you're doing everything great!
and sometimes it will take a few days for a baby to recognize that you're the food source and relax at bit more.
=)


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi everyone, here's an update:
The good news are that I found a way to feed the baby. He doesn't like too much yet, but at least it goes down...
I give him a mixture of the following grains: Peas (black&white), Barley, Hummus and Birds mixture. All grinded to dust and boiled together to softness. The result is a warm (and not very tasty) paste.
I use a syringe and feed him with a method I developed with your good advice. 

Now here is a fresh set of questions:
1. Is the mixture enough? should I add anything to it (egg yolk, oil)?
2. How do I know if it's tasty for him? does it matter?
3. Do they feel taste? smell?
4. Why doesn't he WANT to eat? it's a strugle every time...
5. Most important: *how much should I feed him and how often?* 

Thanks!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The mixture sounds fine to me.

Birds have very few taste buds, and the food that they like would taste awful to you.

I wouldn't add oil or egg yolk, at his age he would (ideally) be on diet that is high in carbohydrates and low in fat...although ferals often have to settle for a high fat diet because that is the food that we eat and discard. You could add just a half teaspoon of chopped lettuce once a day.

At that age I feed about 30 mls three times a day, going up gradually to 40 mls ...keep your eye on the crop, when the pigeon is full it should feel soft like a 3/4 filled balloon.

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

What is Crop?
Where is it?
How do I find it?

thx


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Its the first place the food will go when you feed him. Its a storage place for food so his parents dont have to feed him quite so often. After you feed him you should actually see a little bulge form on the front of him. and yes it should feel like a partially filled balloon. and never too full so it looks/feels like it could pop.


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Thanks again, Gingerpoo, you're like a pigeon encyclopedia! 
Are you sure about the 30cc though? isn't that a lot? I gave him about 10cc this morning and he acted as if it is far too much (trying to escape me, by foot or wing). Also, I tried to feel his crop and felt something soft at his front but I'm not sure it's not the soft feathers covering this area... How can I tell the difference?

I can see he is now much stronger than he was when I found him. He's squeaking much louder and waves his wings (also jumps of my hand and crashes from time to time...). It is now a little easier to feed him, but I think it's because I became better at this, and not he likes it or anything (???)

When and how is he supposed to learn how to fly? find food by himself? leave home?

Also, is it ok he's in a box (in a quiet part of the house) all day with short breaks for feeding? should I put him somewhere else?


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Updates*

Hi,

Please see attached some photos I took now. I have a few questions:
1. In picture 003 you can see a big area under his chest which is not covered with feathers. Is that normal?
2. In picure 006 you can see the area under his wings is almost completley bold. Is that normal?
3. When and how is he supposed to learn how to fly? find food by himself? leave home?
4. Is it ok that I keep him closed in a small box in a quiet part of the house all day, with short breaks for feeding? What is the ideal place for him?

Thanks.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

He looks to be a bit fluffed in the first & last pictures. His eyes don't appear to be bright & clear, as a healthy bird's would be. It's possible he may have an underlying problem.

Unless I've missed it, I didn't see where providing some supplemental heat has been suggested.

Their body temperature needs to be at a normal level & maintained that way. It's possible his isn't. 

I would suggest placing the little one on a towel lined heating pad, set on low or place him under a low wattage lamp for about 20-25 minutes to see if he livens up some.

Here's the link to the Basic life saving steps thread, which is a great guide on how to begin caring for an ill, injured or orphaned pigeon or dove.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-dove-vital-basic-steps-8822.html 

Wishing you both the best. 
Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi Cindy,

Thank you for your reply. I live in Cyprus where the temperature is about 30 degrees celsius (roughly 86F. at home it's probably somewhat lower). Anyway, I don't think heating is the problem... Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

HitchHiker said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I live in Cyprus where the temperature is about 30 degrees celsius (roughly 86F. at home it's probably somewhat lower). Anyway, *I don't think heating is the problem*... Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm always concerned when I see a bird fluffed & not moving about much, whether it be an adult or baby. 
When a bird is compromised, for whatever reason, their body temperature drops. In order for them to digest food properly, their body temperature needs to be, & maintained, at a normal level. Supplement heat helps to provide that.
Unless they're outside in very cold weather, it's not normal for a pigeon or dove to be fluffed.
I also look at their eyes. They should be bright, not dull appearing. 

I may be totally off base, but I just don't think your little one is feeling well. 

Shi & I just rescued this little guy yesterday. He seems to be about the age of yours, maybe a little younger & he found being fed from a human baby bottle nipple was grand. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/im-just-very-hungry-29427.html
This might be another feeding option for you to try. 

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree with Cindy, if he is fluffed up then he is probably feeling cold. Lack of food and body fat will make them feel cold even when the weather is good and the tempreature is high. By providing him with a heat pad or lamp you will enable him to preserve his energy instead of using it to keep warm.

I was watching a programme about Freddie Mercury the other day. It said that when he was skeletal and recording the video for "I'm going slightly mad" he had to be provided with cashmere underwear because he was so cold, whereas everyone else was sweltering under the studio lights. I think that is a good example of how differently the ill and the healthy experience the same ambient temperature.

10cc is too little for a feed for a pigeon that size. 30cc should be OK, but stop regularly to let it go down. Never feed more than 40cc in one go.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> *Unless I've missed it, I didn't see where providing some supplemental heat has been suggested.*
> 
> Cindy


My apologies. I did miss the suggestion of supplemental heat. 




gingerpoo said:


> *He'd probably also like to have some warm heat from a heating pad *under his box or whatever you have him in, since he's not feeling well and eating, his body won't have to burn as many calories to keep him warm.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

HitchHiker said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please see attached some photos I took now. I have a few questions:
> 1. In picture 003 you can see a big area under his chest which is not covered with feathers. Is that normal?
> ...


1. this picture looks like he's just been fed and the feathers which normally lie flat are lifted up because of the food. this is fine. the feathers on the lower chest normally grow in a little later.
2. the feathering under his wings is normal as well.
3. the baby pigeon will (especially the better he feels) sit in one place and flap his wings to give them strength, even the little flaps he does right now when he's begging are helping to strengthen them. He will become more and more active the older he gets and should start flying around on his own.

4. this is the main thing i wanted to comment on! I am not sure how small your box is, but the best thing for him would to be able to see sunlight and get some fresh air. One thing you can do is take 2 laundry baskets and put one upside down ontop of the other. line it with newspaper and a layer of papertowels. and a little towel he can nestle on in one corner.
If you can find it, add a branch through the laundry basket, low enough for him to hop onto it. I would also put some seed in there for him to be looking/pecking at. A jar lid works for a dish. I normally put a clean shiny coin in the food dish to catch their eye. 
Also as far as heating pad- you can put it under just one corner of his basket (like the corner with his towel) so if he decides he wants to be warmer or cooler he can decide. 
Now just keep the baskets together with twisty ties or closepins or something like that. Throw a towel over the corner of the basket, so that he can find a place to hide or get out of any drafts etc.

Also were you able to check his eyes with a flashlight?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's a great idea about using laundry baskets as a cage and I agree that it is important the baby has light. At this age they also enjoy watching what's going on around them and they are starting to get curious and explore a bit. I think you could put a deep dish of seed and one of water in with him and he might start drinking and pecking at the seed.
From your most recent pictures and with the baldness around the face, I am highly suspicious that the pigeon has canker. To me, the bird looks a little off.Canker doesn't always show up inside the throat and can be internal as well. I think Cynthia offered to send you medicine to treat for that and I think you should take her up on it.
This may have been mentioned ...always wait for the crop to empty before adding more food.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

HitchHiker said:


> What is Crop?
> Where is it?
> How do I find it?
> 
> thx


Here's a comparison photo of a crop that's full & one not so full.
Dumpling (on the right) has the full crop where as Dolly's isn't so full. 
They were only a week old here, but it gives you an idea of what to look for. 
These babies were also fed by their parents.

Cindy


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Updates*

I moved him to a cat's carrying cage in my balcony in the office. He now get's fresh air, light and view. He also gets some visits from neighbor pigeons. It's quite hot outside and no wind, so don't worry about him getting cold.

I'm feeding him 20cc 3 times a day. I will try to increase that toward 30cc but it's not simple with him.
It seems that he does not WANT to eat. I have to force him. every time he gets a chance, he escapes me.

Also, I'm not too sure about his health. He is fluffed most of the time and sitting in his cage in odd positions... sometime his head down and tail up, sometimes the head is 'lying' 90 degrees to the body etc... His eyes are a little foggy. Nonetheless, he is getting stronger. he walks around in circles (odd?) and flaps his wings when I lift him on my hand.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

HitchHiker said:


> I moved him to a cat's carrying cage in my balcony in the office.
> 
> He now get's fresh air, light and view. He also gets some visits from neighbor pigeons.
> * * It's quite hot outside and no wind, so don't worry about him getting cold.*
> ...


* The following link explains a little better about supplement heat. The thread is focused primarily on 'baby' babies but pertains to ill and/or injured birds as well. Placing a suspected ill or injured bird in a warm room or wrapping them in a towel, blanket, etc., just isn't enough.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/providing-heat-to-orphaned-birds-13599.html

** There's a possibility he _can't_ eat. As has been mentioned he could have canker which is not visible. 
How are his droppings looking?

*** The fluffiness displayed in the picture in post # 31, indicates there is definitely something amiss with this bird. Even if he had just been fed, his entire body shouldn't be fluffed. 

**** Walking in circles is not normal behavior of a pigeon or dove. There's a reason they're doing it. 
Our Rae Charles walks in circles on occasion, because she's blind. PMV pigeons do, because of a neurological problem.

I stated earlier that I may be way off base thinking your little one wasn't feeling good, for whatever reason. Given your recent update I do believe there is something going on. 
We just need to try & pin point what it is so he can get to feelin' better. 

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi Cindy,

Thank you for your answer. 
So now what? How can we diagnose what's wrong with him and fix him? 

attached is an updated photo I took just now, and one photo of his dropping... I hope that helps.

thx.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

HitchHiker said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> Thank you for your answer.
> * *So now what?*
> ...


I am able to recognize when a bird appears to be feeling under the weather, for whatever reason, & can provide the basic steps to gettting the brid stable, which is vital. However, I'm not well versed in recognizing most illnesses. 

There are other members with much more knowledge than me as far as suggesting what might be going on. Hopefully, they will be along shortly.

* In the meantime, I would place him on, or under, a heat source. I suggested earlier to place him on heat for about 20-25 minutes, however if you decide to go that route & provide heat for a longer period of time, make sure he is able to remove himself from it if he so chooses. The same goes for overheat heat.

** Is there a vet nearby that could check the droppings? 
Have you pm'ed your address to Cynthia so she can get some meds to you?

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I agree, that picture sends up RED FLAG warning. The poop on the other picture doesn't look right either. 

I would even put a nice thick layer of soft paper towels under him, if you don't have a towel for him. Make sure there are no drafts and that there is nothing but warmth around him.

I would put a drop of aplecider vinegar in the formula if you haven't done so, as this will help create a more acidic environment and cut back on some bad bacteria. Some probiotics added to the formula would be very beneficial. But if the bird does have canker, that needs immediate treatment.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

HitchHiker,
I don't know how easy it is for you to get antibiotics in your country but you might check around to find out if Metronidazole is available to purchase. If so, that would be faster than having Cynthia mail it to you.
As Cindy suggested, having a veterinarian run a fecal on the bird would be a wise thing to do too.
I don't know if it's possible but it would help if we could see a video of the walking in circles and other behavior you described.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I was PM'ed to have a look here, and it seems to me that all the necessary information/suggestions have already been posted for HitchHiker. I would just add that if 20 cc/ml per feeding is working and 30 cc/ml is difficult to give, then stay with the smaller amount. We certainly don't need this youngster going into sour crop/crop stasis at this point.

As was posted, a video of the movements of the young bird would be very helpful. Still, if it does have PMV, then there really isn't anything more to be done than is already being done.

Making sure about possible canker would be a definite plus if that can be done. If a vet can be found to do the fecal then perhaps that same vet could provide whatever drugs might be needed.

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I just wanted to add that Hitch Hiker has PM'd me his details so I will send him some meds tomorrow.

Hitch Hiker, if you have digital scales it would be a good idea to check your pigeon's weight daily, that way you will know whether he is getting enough to eat.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are both eyes milky-looking? How does he do the circles? In episodic fits?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Probably Canker...possibly a Bacterial issue also...


when feeling sick, youngsters will sometimes not wish to eat...and, they definitely will not wish to eat foods they feel are not confortable for them, even when feeling at their best.


PPMV does not tend to occasion 'circles' in Pigeons this young so far as I ever saw...while pigeons of this age ALWWAYS go in circles or twirl if feeling excited.


This youngster would probably be self feeding in ten minutes if worked with...IF he had a good appetite...and if he is sick, his appetite might well be 'off'.


If it was me, I would be feeding him whole proper Seeds, via 'Seed-Pop' which of course requires one open his Beak...


This alone will get things going usually with an 'iffy' one for them to begin nuzzling and then one can guide them to peck usually quite easily.


I would definitely consider to treat for Canker, and, to also administer an Antibiotic such as Baytril or Doxycycline or Tetracycline or something anyway, and to provide supplimental heat so his actual Body Temperatures is about 103 Farenheight, regardless of if it is 86 or 96 degrees out which means nothing as for how warm he needs to be internally...


And I would use ACV-Water for his Drinking Water, to the tune of three tablespoons to the Gallon.


He can be guided to drink by making sure his drinking Water is close to body temperature, and, by simply guiding his Beak in one's finger tips so his Beak enters the Water with one's finget tips staying on his Beak sides, and he will drink.

Any 'wet' food, or Water has to be close to his own Body temperature, or he will refuse either, no matter what else they have for merit.



Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

hi hitchhiker,


Just trying to thin some more on this...



Feeding wise, I do not now what you have access to.


If you have cooked 'garbanzos' you can divde them into small pieces say about 3/16ths of an inch square...and these are a good food for them, but generally one does not use any kind of cooked foods.


A little fresh Cilantro...just the leaves, cut or torn to be in small pieces, are very good also.


Good quality Bird Seed, such as is for Finches or Canarys is very good...


Time will tell if this youngster has PPMV, but probably he does not.


When they poop, there are two components to it which occur simultaneously - 


Fecal matter, being usually brownish green...

Urates, being 'white' usually.


If the Urates are 'yellow' or even slightly yellow, it is an indication of an infection of some kind.



One way to manage for putting food into a young Pigeon's mouth for them to swallow...is to gently have their Legs straight back, and wrap them lightly in a small cloth or hand-towel, so that some extra towel is extending past their Tail...and it is loose around their Crop...wrapping them in only one or two turns of cloth is all, while maing sure their Legs are 'back' straight.

Then, to 'spigot' them like this, between your legs as you sit, behind your knees, so the Pigeon is "vertical" and you can hold them then securely as you sit, just using your legs...where what your legs are closed against is ONLY the towel part which is over their Tail and the extra, so no actual pressure is on the Bird itself.


This lets you have both hands free, for opening their Beak, and putting a little bite of food or a seed or two in, for them to swallow.


Do not do this with any liquids, and for that matter, he will be glad to drink willingly if you just work with him as I described in the prior post.




Does he 'nuzzle' then, or 'squeak' in probing your hands with his Beak?



Phil
l v


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Update*

Hi Everyone,

Thank you very much for all the good advice. It really helps a lot.
I found a bird vet here in Cyprus (funny, he is about 500m from my home...). I will take Tzip (that's how I named the baby) for an examination this afternoon.

I will update as soon as I have results. Please cross your fingers for Tzip.


HitchHiker


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

HitchHiker said:


> I found a bird vet here in Cyprus (funny, he is about 500m from my home...). I will take Tzip (that's how I named the baby) for an examination this afternoon.
> 
> I will update as soon as I have results. Please cross your fingers for Tzip.
> 
> HitchHiker


This is great news about the avian vet! Please do let us know the outcome.

Terry


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Saying prayers and sitting with both fingers & toes crossed for a good outcome for Tzip.

Louise


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi All,
sorry to keep you waiting. The birds vet said everything is ok (sigh!). No canker, poop is ok, not wanting to eat is because I'm not his mother. He said to continue with the mixture I prepared, which by the way I upgraded. This morning I also gave him some barley grains and he was quite happy with them. So... everything looks ok. I will keep you guys posted.

Thanks for all your advice! I would have been lost without it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi hitchiker, 



Glad to hear the Vet gavethe little one the 'all clear'...



What kinds of Seeds or Grains do you have or have acess to?


Can you get regular, traditional 'Canary Seed' or 'Finch Seed' or any kind of small, whole Bird Seeds there where you are?




Phil
l v


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

So happy that the Vet gave you a good report.

Please keep us posted as Tzip progresses.

Thanks for all you are doing for this little bird.

Regards,
Louise


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> I just wanted to add that Hitch Hiker has PM'd me his details so* I will send him some meds tomorrow.*
> Cynthia





HitchHiker said:


> Hi All,
> The birds vet said everything is ok (sigh!).
> 
> *No canker*, poop is ok, not wanting to eat is because I'm not his mother. He said to continue with the mixture I prepared, which by the way I upgraded. This morning I also gave him some barley grains and he was quite happy with them. So... everything looks ok. I will keep you guys posted.


I would suspect the medication Cynthia sent you includes that for canker.

Just a thought, since canker isn't always visible, in previous situations, members have treated for the illness as a precaution. This may be something to think about with your situation.

Wishing you both the best.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I would suspect the medication Cynthia sent you includes that for canker.


You suspect right!  Also Baytril and probiotics, just in case they are needed.

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi All,

Just a short update to say everything is ok with Tzip. He now behaves normally, squeaking at me with excitement and flapping his wings whenever I come to feed him. He also runs toward me and pick my hand in search for food. I feed him 3 times a day with the following:
1. 20cc mixture of beans, rice, wheat, hummus beans, birds seed, oats, bread crumbs, barley all grinned to dust and mixed with warm water.
2. 50 barley grains.
He's quite happy with the food.

Finally, a question: how and when should I teach him to fly?

HitchHiker


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

HitchHiker said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just a short update to say everything is ok with Tzip. He now behaves normally, squeaking at me with excitement and flapping his wings whenever I come to feed him. He also runs toward me and pick my hand in search for food. I feed him 3 times a day with the following:
> 1. 20cc mixture of beans, rice, wheat, hummus beans, birds seed, oats, bread crumbs, barley all grinned to dust and mixed with warm water.
> ...


Thanks for the update. Glad to hear things are going well. 

Their flying is a natural instinct. 

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for the update, it is such a relief to know Tzip is doing so well!

Cynthia


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

So glad to hear Tzip is doing so well.

Thanks for all that your doing for this precious little bird.

Regards,
Louise


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

****help****

It seems there's a serious problem with Tzip!
Starting last night, he is puking everything I feed him... Also, since last night he has a bad diarrhea... His dropping is green and wattery, does not seem normal at all...

Could it be related to a flight accident he had yesterday? He jumped off my hand and fell on his had... 

Please advise urgently. I don't want to lose him.


HitchHiker


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

HitchHiker said:


> It seems there's a serious problem with Tzip!
> Starting last night, he is puking everything I feed him... Also, since last night he has a bad diarrhea... His dropping is green and wattery, does not seem normal at all...
> 
> Could it be related to a flight accident he had yesterday? He jumped off my hand and fell on his had...
> ...



Hitch, you really should keep your posts in YOUR original thread so that people who are watching can be aware of any questions. I went back and read through VERY QUICKLY on what has been happening with this baby. The last thing I saw was that you had found a vet that would look at him. 
I would suggest that you make every effort to get the bird BACK to the vet ASAP. 
We try to help as much as we can but we can't diagnose everything and nothing takes the place of hands on. 
Something is wrong with Tzip and there's no sense in people all over the world trying to figure out what that problem is when you can see a vet.
I do hope that Tzip will be ok and in spite of everything, I still suspect canker. 
Please let us know what you find out.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

The posts have now been moved to their original thread, I agree that the bird needs to go to an avian vet asap.

Meanwhile keep him subdued and hydrate with a little hydration fluid, slowly dribble down the side of beak.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry that Tzip has taken a bad turn. Don't try to feed him for the time being, just keep him warm and give him rehydrating solution (1 pint warm water mixed with 1/2 teaspoon glucose, sugar or honey). Have you received the "care" package I sent yet? If so, give him one tablet of spartrix and mix some probiotics in with the water.

When I had a pigeon with bad diarrhea I made certain that every time she passed diarrhea she received fluids to compensate for the loss.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HitchHiker said:


> It seems there's a serious problem with Tzip!
> Starting last night, he is puking everything I feed him... Also, since last night he has a bad diarrhea... His dropping is green and wattery, does not seem normal at all...
> 
> Could it be related to a flight accident he had yesterday? He jumped off my hand and fell on his had...
> ...




Hi HH, 



Yes, get him to the Vet a soon as possible.



This sounds like an infection of his Digestive system, or an infection which is effecting his digestive system.


Human saliva can do this, as can Bacteria in the food.


How have you been preparing the food for him?



Anyway, your little Pigeon is more than old enough to be eating whole and proper Seeds now anyway, so, lets review what you have been doing food wise and food prep-wise, and then we can review getting him onto eating and pecking Seeds.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Update*

Hi All,

Some good news first: Tzip is much better! no more puking, no more dierriah and he is hungry again!!! 

I keep feeding him as follows:
He eats 2-3 times a day 20cc of the following grains grounded to dust and mixed with water (I put the water in about 10 minutes before the feeding): Hummus grains, black & white peas, wheat, rice, oats, kinoua, birds seed.
I also add some barley grains (about 30-40 in total, in several portions during the feeding). 
This keeps him happy. He is squeaking with excitement every time he knows I feed him and runs toward my hand and picks it with his little beak.

And now the worrying part: he keeps tilting his head in funny angles (see images). He keeps it straight also, but usually it's tilted both when he walks and stands still.... 
Also, every time he tries to fly, he falls  He does not really eat by himself, although he tries to pick the grains I leave in his box and picks at other stuff as well... Shouldn't he know to fly/eat by himself already? he is supposed to be 28-29 days old by now.
Please advise.


Oh sh***! he just pooped on my iPhone!


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi HitchHiker........I am so happy to hear that Tzip is feeling better. So glad you have the puking and pooping under control. 

Your really need some imput from some of our experts here with his condition of his head tiltiling and falling. I have a suspicion what it is, but I am very reluctant to give you any advice as I am not that experienced or savy on the illness.

I will PM one of the experts that I know that is very familiar and have them get back to you.

Love that fact that he gets so excited when you go to feed him...that is a real good sign.

Regards,
Louise


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I have PM a few of the experts and hopefully they will be back to you shortly.

I just want to give you some precautionary advice, just in case Tzip has what I suspect.

He needs to be kept very quiet and comfortable as any form of stress will exasperate his condition. Therefore don't attempt any more flying for him for the time being. There is plenty of time for that after he recovers.

Just keep him as quiet and comfortable as possible.

Regards,
Louise


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am glad that Tzip is feeling a bit better again . The head tilt could be an indication that he has PMV or he could have paratyphoid (I am suprised the vet didn't see this.)


If it is PMV then all you can do is provide supportive care, he may make a spontaneous recovery (I will post a link to PMV information at the end of this post). If he has PMV then you will probably notice that he has white patches as the end of his feathers, or a "flag" at the end of the feather, or twisted feathers. The bare patch at the throat could also indicate PMV.

If it is paratyphoid, then he can be treated with Baytril.

Can you let us know about his feather condition?

This is the link to PMV information: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12250&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> If he has PMV then you will probably notice that he has white patches as the end of his feathers, or a "flag" at the end of the feather, or twisted feathers.


I didn't know that! What causes that phenomenon, and do you have any illustrative photos?

Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I didn't know that! What causes that phenomenon, and do you have any illustrative photos?


I am not completely certain of the cause, healthy feather growth relies on good health and illness usually shows up in the feathering in some way, such as a "fret" mark.

There is a photo in "Fit to Win", but copyright prevents me from sharing it. 

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I also tend to think it's PMV. The head "twist" seems so typical for PMV. Your vet could run a blood test and make the diagnosis for sure. My vet had mentioned that meningitis and encephalitis could also cause the head twist.
He can survive with supportive care. 

Reti


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi HitchHiker,

Two of our most knowledgeable members have agreed with my suspicions. Please read in it's entirity the link that Cyro51 sent you.

Tzip has a really good chance of survival with your help and supportive care. He sure is a little figher and it's obvious he wants to live.

Please keep us updated, there are many of us here rooting and praying for him.

Regards,
Louise


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It would be great if you could wash his feet and it may be difficult, but keep the poop off them as best you can. Did you treat him for canker?


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

:'(
so it's PMV, I guess.
Now what? I thought it will be a matter of a few weeks before he will fly... I can't take care of him for 6-12 weeks... In 3 weeks I need to go abroad for several weeks. And than what? who will take care of him? What shall I do?


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

HitchHiker.......You have done a great job with Tzip. If it had not been for the expectional care you have given him it is very questionable if he could have made it this far. 

I'm sure the administrative staff here will put out an SOS for Tzip and we will find some assistance for you before you must leave to go abroad.

Thanks for everything you have done and please give us an update of TZip's condition.

Louise


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Is there anyone that you can trust that you could leave him with?

I have sent messages to people in Cyprus that were members some years ago, but you know how it is, e-mail addresses change and you lose touch. 

Cynthia


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*There is hope!*

I found a home for Tzip!!!
There's a birds park about 1 hour drive from my home (http://www.pafosbirdpark.com/bird_park.htm). I spoke with them and they agreed to take him and take care of him until he is ready to fly!

Tomorrow I will take him there and will update after.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That sounds wonderful. Thank you for all you have done for this bird.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is great, but you will have to make them aware that he has to be kept isolated from other birds for 4 weeks because until then he will still be shedding the virus until that time and could infect other pigeons.

Cynthia


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

HitchHiker,,,,,So glad you found the birdpark for Tzip, however have you told them he has PMV? Tzip can surviive, but still needs to be hand fed and will need quite a bit of isolated supportive care for quite some time.

Please be sure before you leave him there that they will not put him to sleep. Many times these places take birds in and the minute you leave they euthanize the bird. After all you have done to save him I'm sure you would not want that to happen.

Thank you for taking such good care of him.

Louise


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## HitchHiker (Aug 14, 2008)

*Tzip found a new home*

As I mentioned last week, I found a new home for Tzip in a birds park in Paphos. They are fully aware of his condition and will continue hand-feeding and taking care of him until he gets better. That's what I call a happy ending.

I want to thank you all for all your great advice and support. Tzip would not have made it otherwise. Thank you very much!
Personally, I feel like a baby-pigeon expert already and have the confidence to take care of other baby birds in case I find any.

  


HitchHiker.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Personally, I feel like a baby-pigeon expert already and have the confidence to take care of other baby birds in case I find any.


You certainly had your "baptism by fire". Thank you for all you have done for Tzip.

Cynthia


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