# Eye sign



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

What ones do you guys like? I am new to racing and these are some of my breeders. Do you like them?


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Hi there*

Hello!

They are all very pretty. In my opinion, however, it has little to nothing to do with their quality as either a racer or breeder. There are many people out there that feel that the insights into a birds ability can be found simply by gazing into their lovely little eyes. It is not my intention to make light of these beliefs and if that is your choosing, have at it. I just can't ever recall anyone looking into the circle of correlation of Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth or Magic Johnson eyes. To me, it just doesn't have any scientific relevance or significance.

But hey, like I said...to each his own.

Dan


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

The first eye looks a little flat to me, I'm by no means an expert and have only done a little bit of reading on the subject and watched a couple different videos. 

I think that for me as a novice, getting heavy duty in to the whole eye sign thing would only serve to complicate things even more than they already are. One thing I DO know about eye sign is that if a pigeon only has one eye, it will not do very well.

Edit: Here's an article with the opinion of one of the heavy hitters up in Canada. Seems to me that for every eye sign expert out there, there's a guy that calls him an idiot. It really is confusing, and at the end of the day I refuse to believe that winning races is a simple as selecting birds with a certain type of eye.
http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I am just bored. I can't race until next year so what else to do? I think there is poeple who can tell stuff from a pigeons eye but I am not one of them. Around here you can only join a club at the yearly meeting and since I did not decide to start racing until after the beginning of the year I can't race for 1.5 years basically. I have been going and hanging out with people from my club and going to races and getting all my stock in order for the winter. Still bored.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Lose Sight*

hi ohiogsp,The pigeon hobby is supose to be fun. I for one do not believe in eye sign but if that turns you on thats ok as its a hobby.To many people miss the point that its fun and enjoyment that we get just having the birds.There are those that like racing ,and those that like showing,there people that like the genetics. It is unfortunate that many have lost sight of the fact that it is a hobby. I say enjoy the hobby in what ever way you like. .GEORGE


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I think alot more people in the UK are into eye sign. I don't believe it all but I do believe that some great racing or breeding pigeons have simular eyes. I am sure there are some that have great eyes that aren't good but? I posted these pics on a UK site and I know what pigeons out of this group are good ones. It was kind of an experimnet to see what people picked. Anyway the first 2 eyes are just some birds I have had that are not very great at all. The 3-4 eyes are a good proven pair of birds. The first person picked the 3 eye and the second picked the 4 eye. After that I told them 3-4 where good birds but did not let them know I knew the produced winners. One person did pick eye number 2 but he also picked 4. I then posted a pick of this eye. 










Right away someone say top class breeder! This bird has breed multiple champion birds! She is almost 12 years old and that is the only reason I was able to get her from one of my friends. She will not breed until mid summer so she is no good for YB's so I am breeding stock from her.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Hello!
> 
> They are all very pretty. In my opinion, however, it has little to nothing to do with their quality as either a racer or breeder. There are many people out there that feel that the insights into a birds ability can be found simply by gazing into their lovely little eyes. It is not my intention to make light of these beliefs and if that is your choosing, have at it. I just can't ever recall anyone looking into the circle of correlation of Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth or Magic Johnson eyes. To me, it just doesn't have any scientific relevance or significance.
> 
> ...


Dan,

You said it better then I could, but since this is a competitive sport or hobby...I am glad that many of my local competitor's are into "Eye Sign" as it makes my job of winning races all that much easyer....


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I've heard of eye sign but don't know anything about it. What is looked for when assessing the eye?

Margaret


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

Margarret said:


> I've heard of eye sign but don't know anything about it. What is looked for when assessing the eye?
> 
> Margaret


LOL, if you ever ask that question to an eye sign "guru" make sure you've got about a week to hear the explanation  . 

I guess this will get you started on the whole eye sign thing..... http://www.albertaclassic.net/eyes/barkel.php


EDIT: Let the record show that I also picked eye #1 as a mediocre bird, so perhaps my limited research on the subject has taught me something in spite of my skepticism.


----------



## The Flying Kiwi (Jun 4, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Dan,
> 
> You said it better then I could, but since this is a competitive sport or hobby...I am glad that many of my local competitor's are into "Eye Sign" as it makes my job of winning races all that much easyer....


Ok my 2 cents
I see theres not alot of eyesign believers here.
We dont totally follow the theroy ourselves but....
1, Go to any loft in your area and when the fancier shows you his champions i would bet my left one that they have outstanding strong eye color and sign.

2, 9 times out of 10 The first thing people look at when handling pigeons for purchase is look at the eye!

3, When pairing for breeding we always contrast the colors and eyesign strength for example eye #2 and #3 This being a theroy that has been followed sucessfully in my family form my Great Grand father through to my father and myself today thats four generations proof enough for me!!!!!

But each to thier own form your own opinion.


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

The Flying Kiwi said:


> Ok my 2 cents
> I see theres not alot of eyesign believers here.
> We dont totally follow the theroy ourselves but....
> 1, Go to any loft in your area and when the fancier shows you his champions i would bet my left one that they have outstanding strong eye color and sign.
> ...


All that being said, how many birds are out there that can barely find their way to the feed trough and back to their perch that ALSO have excellent eye sign?


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Roxtar,

Thanks for the link. It answered my questions quite well. Very interesting stuff. I have a couple of racers, one an old bird, one a young. I'll have to look at their eyes now and compare it to the descriptions. Obviously it is a very debated subject with strong feelings on both sides. LOL! I think I'll become a fence sitter regarding eye sign.

Margaret


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Eye sighn has been used for many years. And many that have used it as part of the whole have done very well. Eye sighn alone is not enough. In the past the grades were 1 through 10. ten being the best. Does it make the bird better. PERHAPS if the bird has the other tools to make the package complte in a way. One can believe or not as long as a person maintains a quality base. performance times breeding is the key. You will have birds that can really perform BUT are not the better breeders. Look at the whole to find the one. Best eye sighn would be the minds eye to know your birds.


----------



## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

I like the part where the fancier said you had to hold the birds head just right at about 12 noon keeping shade on his face , then you had a split second as you turned just so where the sun would hit his eye making the pupil contract and the fine lines defining the eye would yield the sought after info. Oh yeah and the monacle in YOUR eye had to stay in place. Like many of you said . . .it's not all one thing. Many factors come together in making a good racing bird. Among them - Eye, health, genetics, training . . and of course the trainer.


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

> Many factors come together in making a good racing bird. Among them - Eye, health, genetics, training . . and of course the trainer.


I would say that the eye plays the most insignificant role, if any at all.


----------



## 1pigeon (Apr 5, 2006)

Buautiful eyes sigh (a lot going on and color in the eyes) is good eye sign?
I thinks beside high performance(come first) now they looking for beauty like color..body and color of the eyes..
If the eye sign really can tell pigeon ability ..i think we havn't have pedigree by now.It would be eye sign certificate instead..
Remember the guy that want to sale his super eye sign for $25,000? his pigeon doesn't have any thing but good breeding eye sigh..and we all agreed that was a big joke.No body even want to see the picture of that eye sign.
So i thing eye sige is just additional of pigeon beauty......


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

roxtar said:


> ....
> Edit: Here's an article with the opinion of one of the heavy hitters up in Canada. Seems to me that for every eye sign expert out there, there's a guy that calls him an idiot. It really is confusing, and at the end of the day I refuse to believe that winning races is a simple as selecting birds with a certain type of eye.
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm



Hello Roxtar,

The link you provided articulates my view as many know. I wish it could be as simple as looking at a set of eyeballs. Can can you imagine how much money you could win by simply betting on the bird with the best eyeballs on shipping night..........the reason eyeball gazing has so many true believers I think, is because they are clueless as to how to tell a good bird from very average. Not knowing the difference, eyeball study gives them something to latch onto. 

And then of course every great champion racer or breeder will be said to have a great set of eyes, once that fact is known. Where the true believers have a problem, is trying to figure out who the great champion racer or breeder will be before the fact..........

I am fairly certain, that if one breeds for a certain kind of eyeball...that you can base your selection process around that and produce birds with the eyes that please you. I am also fairly certain you could over time produce a whole colony of pigeons with the types of eyeballs you like, you simply select based on your eyeball preference. Perhaps even produce birds which would win shows and earn applause from other eyeball believers. 

And then when the race season starts, you could very well end up with birds on the bottom half of the race sheet...but you will have the best darn eyeballs then anybody !! So my question is...are you breeding for an eyeball show...or to produce fast pigeons ?


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

I may have an idea that could make us millions...... Pigeon eye sign CONTACT LENSES!!! Imagine how rich we could be, I would be able to afford some of your high dollar birds.


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

roxtar said:


> I may have an idea that could make us millions...... Pigeon eye sign CONTACT LENSES!!! Imagine how rich we could be, I would be able to afford some of your high dollar birds.


You know, the sad thing is that there would probably be thousands of people that would actually buy them! It is always so much easier for some to jump on the latest bandwagon than it is to do their research, investigate the biological and genetic facts and make educated, informed decisions on their own. Maybe it's just me but I don't get it. 

Hey do those come in pearl eyes as well...I hear they are no good as breeders anyway!  

Dan


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

roxtar said:


> I may have an idea that could make us millions...... Pigeon eye sign CONTACT LENSES!!! Imagine how rich we could be, I would be able to afford some of your high dollar birds.


SNORT! You folks are funny!  

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

learning said:


> Hey do those come in pearl eyes as well...I hear they are no good as breeders anyway!
> 
> Dan


DOUBLE SNORT!  

Terry


----------



## mickey mouse (Oct 13, 2007)

*found this on web*

http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*I say go with a winner....*



mickey mouse said:


> http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm



Hello Mickey,

Once upon a time, a long time ago, I visited this gentlemen's web site...but something was missing....and it took a few moments to figure it out....where is any reference to any racing he has done ? I looked as hard as I could, and then I finally figured it out, he is such an expert on eyesign, that is all he has time for, no time for racing ! 

Although I must admit, it was entertaining, I laughed so hard I had to hit my inhaler.

Now this guy has won a race or two........ 

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/eyesign.htm

So which one has just a tad more creditability ?  

Follow whatever ideas you wish, just make sure to bring your wallet on shipping night and enter the various pools ?


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I have a few phrases to say about this subject:

"one pin tail"
"Tight vent"
"strong back"
"wide back"
"good conformation"
"graded excellent"
"three bars"
"same length primaries"
"foundation quality"

It is funny when looking at the web pages of the greats. They all have three links on their webpage. Champions, Race results, and pigeons for sale. The last is optional, some are soo good they do not need to advertise. I ask you how they select their breeders. Oh yes they do take pictures of they eyes for you. They would love to sell you the bird that finished 100th on the race sheet. Thats how they keep the winners fed.

Randy


----------



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

whether you believe in eye sign or not here is some information, you can decide for yourself, I'll take all the information i can and use it for myself, the final judge of a racing pigeon is the results after race day, but even this can be faulty only time will tell!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovqhukMrJVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WyNi092Fks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lqh7DYzw78


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I have a few phrases to say about this subject:
> 
> "one pin tail"
> "Tight vent"
> ...


Randy,

You got the rap down pretty good !  I am very impressed...I guess you have been around the block a few times ?


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

george simon said:


> hi ohiogsp,The pigeon hobby is supose to be fun. I for one do not believe in eye sign but if that turns you on thats ok as its a hobby.To many people miss the point that its fun and enjoyment that we get just having the birds.There are those that like racing ,and those that like showing,there people that like the genetics. It is unfortunate that many have lost sight of the fact that it is a hobby. I say enjoy the hobby in what ever way you like. .GEORGE


 *JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU ALL ITS A HOBBY ENJOY IT*


----------



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

george simon said:


> *JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU ALL ITS A HOBBY ENJOY IT*


There's nothing that can ruin a hobby for me more than getting my butt whooped the way I have my first year flying. It's now become an obsession.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI ROXTAR, Learn from your mistakes, most new flyers do not do all that well in the early years,so you are not alone. GOOD LUCK your day will come. .GEORGE


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Winners never quit...Quiters never win.....*



george simon said:


> *JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU ALL ITS A HOBBY ENJOY IT*


 
Hello George,

I respect your view of what pigeons mean to you, for many...no I would say most...it is a hobby, a simple back yard past time. But like other sports, there are people who simply enjoy the game....like golf. But, I don't think Tiger Woods considers golf "Just a Hobby", nor do thousands who play golf to win. Same with many other sports. For some...horse racing is just an enjoyable past time, but some race horse owners take the game very seriously, and play to win.

Same with pigeons...if you simply enjoy playing around the back yard with a few birds, that is just fine, go enjoy yourself and have fun. If you are competitive, and like to win, then you can take your passion for pigeons to the next level and play to win. I have played various games over my lifetime, and I never understood why someone would train hard for a sport, and not care if they won or lost, and said it was "Just for Fun".....ask your local High School football team...that actually wins...if it makes any difference to them if they win or lose  ....Winners don't like to lose...and a lot of times, the losers just did not want to win bad enough. It is what my old HS football coach called "guts". 

If you have a passion for something, and you want to do well...you have to have a certain amount of determination and willingness to do the work that is needed to achieve victory. You don't win a gold medal in any of the sports at the Olymics by approaching it as a hobby. And you will never achieve any serious level in the sporting world...by approaching it as simply something fun to do....a little hobby. 

If you don't like competition, then choose some other non-competitive aspect of the pigeon game.....don't attempt to go into the racing end of this sport, without a willingness to try your best to win. Unless you are one of those strange birds, who really enjoys being a loser......

I am one of those strange oddballs...that get's annoyed when someone tells me...relax..it is *just *a hobby. I am thinking, that it may be *just* a hobby to that person...but to me, it is passion that drives me night and day. I have placed my heart, blood, sweat, tears and my very soul into wanting to be the very best I humanly can, with all the gifts that God has given me. Telling me it's *just* a hobby, has more to do with the level of commitment, or lack of commitment to excellence that the person saying that to me has for the sport, and not the reality.

My advice to readers is to enjoy life, and have fun whenever you can. But if you are going to do something, then challenge yourself to do it well. Look around you, the whole world is full of examples of mediocrity. It takes no effort, and there is no glory in doing a poor, sloppy job in anything. Like my grandmother use to say..."If a job is worth doing, then do it well". I challenge myself and others to approach every day as an opportunity to achieve greatness, and accomplish great things. And to do this, you need to develop a little desire, some passion for what it is you do. It terms of racing pigeons, don't be afraid to push yourself towards excellence. It's very easy to lose, very easy to join the ranks of mediocrity on the bottom half of the race sheet. After awhile some people get use to being there and convince themselves that they are having fun...and it's just a hobby. Those with passion, drive and a winner's attitude crawl to the top...that is what winners do...they win !!!


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I too am possessed like Warren. I think what did it for me is when I was about 13. I got a few birds from a local backyard loft and settled them in. I trainned them around the loft and took them down the road a bit. The old timers in the club wanted me to race with them. I had a team of 13 young birds. The first race was 125 miles. My thrown together matings with multi colored birds, Bomber who had a busted wing, two no banders that were of "good blood" bred me a race team. I had two decent birds, a blue check splash hen and a red cock. Sion blood mixed with a little barn bird. The old guys told me to call in my birds because I did not have a clock. My little hen arrived mid morning, so I called the time in. The old timer told me that I had to have the birds counter mark when I called in. So I strolled to the loft and pulled the counter mark off. She was the only one home. About five minutes later I called back with the number. The old timer told me to write 10:05 as my time. I asked him how many birds he had back he told me none yet. He had about a 10 mile overfly and told me that his should be there any minute. About 20 minutes later the Red cock arrived. I pulled his counter mark and called him in. The old timers wife told me that he was clocking birds and she gave me the time. 
That night at knock off the times were written down. 993ypm was the calculated time for my bird. The old timers told me that my bird won the junior division. I was the junior division. What they did not tell me and what I read on the diploma when I got home was "overall winner". 
Needless to say I was loaned a clock the next race. My little hen won that race also. Felt good being a 13 year old shortender who won 3 out of the six young bird races. What the old timer did not know is that I was watching him, listening to him, and imulating him. He fed peas, I fed peas. He loft flew am and pm, I did the same. He talked to his birds, I sang to mine. He bathed his weekly, I gave mine a bath 3 times a week. 

Such a fun hobby

Randy


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

To quote the great Reese Bobby, "If you ain't first, your last".

Randy


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Back to the original post. I have been studying eyesign and the more I do the less I believe it. There is a web site called the alberta classic and on there they took pictures of all the eyes of every pigeon in there one loft race. Then they opened a section to guess what ones will win by the eye. They did not show the bird. There was alot of eyes to choose from. Lets just say it was not very supportive to the eyesign theory. I still think alot of great birds have great eyes but I think that there are just as many poor birds with great eyes.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> Back to the original post. I have been studying eyesign and the more I do the less I believe it. There is a web site called the alberta classic and on there they took pictures of all the eyes of every pigeon in there one loft race. Then they opened a section to guess what ones will win by the eye. They did not show the bird. There was alot of eyes to choose from. Lets just say it was not very supportive to the eyesign theory. I still think alot of great birds have great eyes but I think that there are just as many poor birds with great eyes.


Hello Ohiogsp,

I have been accused at various times throughout my life, of taking life just a bit to serious.....I do believe that it is possible to take our pigeon sport so serious, that it becomes a job. So I want to state that one should perhaps consider keeping it on a level where you can enjoy this "sport" or "hobby".

I personally don't care if someone enjoys "eyesign" or takes some measure of pleasure in it or from it. I have no axe to grind in this regard. Whatever I think or say in this regard, I am sure most people could care less.

I do know that enough people care enough about eyesign, that it has become a marketing tool for many pigeon dealers. Many will post a picture of a pigeon's eye right beside the pigeon. And above the pretty pedigree.  

If you look Ohiogsp, for any sort of scientific evidence to support the claims of self appointed eyesign "experts" you won't find any. In fact, it requires a person with little or no formal education in the fields of biology or science. And that may just be my problem, I spent too much time in too many various biology classes in college. So I am past the point of being able to be taught this eye sign idea. 

But, if anyone enjoys it, and has fun with it...more power to you !


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Anyone that has been in racing for more then 8 years knows who BRAD LA VERN was,he was a co owner of the Hapco lofts, he also was a grader of pigeons, and was the president of the AU. Brad wrote a book "The Eye and Orientation" THIS IS NOT AN EYE SIGN BOOK" but is a book on the eye and the abilty of some birds (very few) to move their eye to extreme positions quickly without moving their head,the eye seemed to be on swivels.I quote BRAD here "after grading many thousands of birds I find that the excellent category emcompasses perhaps three-quarters of one percent.The good catergory is approximately20 percent and the fair to poor category is almost 80 percent"Brad believed that birds that had the ability to rotate the eye in this maner were able to orient themselves much faster then other birds. You must also keep in mind that Brad GRADED THE WHOLE BIRD and not just the eye.If you are a thinking man get his book and read it.Once again I must point out that this is not a eye sign book but he does study the eye and its relationship to the over all grading of the bird. .GEORGE


----------



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Some people say, first is the only thing, we always say second sucks, however in pigeon racing I feel if you fly a race and have birds return you are already a winner!


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> Some people say, first is the only thing, we always say second sucks, however in pigeon racing I feel if you fly a race and have birds return you are already a winner!


DeeJay.........you got the right idea my friend. If being #1 is THE MOST important thing to a person,.........well, that's just sad. 
I would rather send 20 birds to a race and have 20 birds at the bottom of the sheet AND 20 birds back in my loft when the sun goes down, than send 20, get 10 home and take the first 10 places. I'll take my birds back every day of the week.  I don't raise them with the attitude that being number one is *all *that's important.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Who the hell is REESE BOBBY? If he was a winner I sure never heard of him. GEORGE


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> DeeJay.........you got the right idea my friend. If being #1 is THE MOST important thing to a person,.........well, that's just sad.
> I would rather send 20 birds to a race and have 20 birds at the bottom of the sheet AND 20 birds back in my loft when the sun goes down, than send 20, get 10 home and take the first 10 places. I'll take my birds back every day of the week.  I don't raise them with the attitude that being number one is *all *that's important.


Renee,

I agree with you !

I confess, I would like to be #1, but there are other considerations. This past week, we had our longest race which for me is 336 miles, and our combine has had quite a few smashes from this location. About five hours into the race I started reviewing the weather conditions along the race course and there was some wind gusts along the way and locally which approached 20 mph in a side wind, and then turned into a much slighter head wind. I remember thinking, did I do the right thing sending 10 birds, most of whom are now dipolma winners, only to lose some of them ? How many and which ones ?

I then said a prayer for their safe return. I did not win #1, I won 3rd and 4th place, but was most thrilled when they all returned safely to race another day. I felt much better about this event then in previous events when I did take 1st place, but ended up with combine diploma winners MIA. Some never to be seen again. As the season progresses, the birds cease to be just band numbers, they become more like pets, and the last few races are harder for me, because there is now attachments to individual birds, when early in the season there is more of a detachment. 

Even as I write this I have this nagging question in my mind as to wheather it makes more sense to pull some of my birds with multiple wins rather then risk a loss. It's those last couple of races, and those additional possible points, which can determine who makes the YB of the Year, or the American Ace list. I am told by advisors "No Guts No Glory" and that this soft spot is a weakness which needs to be overcome..... 

But my heart tells me you are morally correct Renee, thanks for the post.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

george simon said:


> Who the hell is REESE BOBBY? If he was a winner I sure never heard of him. GEORGE


 I never did...and a Google search turns up a plot in a movie....

*Talladega Nights tells the story of a NASCAR stock car racing sensation Ricky Bobby whose "win at all costs" approach has made him a national hero.*

Don't know if he was a real person, or just a charactor in a movie. 

I suspect that in life as well as in sports, the road to being #1 is a very hard one. Very few are willing to do what it takes to be #1 in their career, their sport, their hobby, etc. etc. I suppose that is why movies are made, and books written. No one is really interested in who #100 is, but there is much interest and attention paid to those few, very special people, who have achieved that level of success in whatever field they are #1 in. We may love them or hate them, but either way, by way of the fact that they are number #1 makes them somebody of interest.


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

You should rent the movie this weekend warren. It is not the kind of movie you think it is.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Thanks Warren for the info on R.BOBBY. I have never been a big fan of stock car racing,I get to see enough idiots on the freeways in California LOL. .GEORGE


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Renee,
> 
> I agree with you !
> 
> ...


Well, thank you Warren. For some reason, I was afraid that you would disagree with me somewhat. Glad I was wrong.  Of course we would all like to be #1, but there are things that are more important, like taking care of the babies and CARING about the babies that we all work so hard to raise and train. 
We've been racing for 5 weeks and had nothing but bad races since the first one, when we took 1-16. Well, the tides changed this week. Sent 19 birds, got 19 back and took 1-3 and 6-8 in the club "A" race. Squeaked out a 3rd place in the "B" race. Won't do as good in the combine, cause I've already heard through the grapevine that there are some speeds in the 1300's (ours was 1249), but that's ok. I'll take it. 
This is when racing is fun. When you either get ALL of your birds back or get them back AND win........... When you loose birds it sucks. 
One of our new flyers took 10-12 place and two of his birds were birds that we gave him. 
So.........pretty good week. Amazing the difference in things when you put the birds up in decent weather, rather than fog and head winds of 15 MPH. 
You can't help but wonder what would have happened and which missing birds would still be here if only.......................


----------



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

just wanted to say pigeon racing is more of a sport than a hobby, in fact a sport for kings and queens along with the average person, unlike horse racing where the average person would not be able to have his or her own stable but still would be able to have a loft of pigeons!


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

You all take me way to seriously. Reese Bobby was Ricky Bobby's beer drinking billigerant father in the comedy movie Talledega Nights. He instilled that winning is everyting to his son in thier only encounter in 10 years. Ricky lived this "winning is everyting" life only to find out that their are more, precious and important things in life. Like love etc. 
I do not think winning is everyting, but it does feel very good and helps me set goals. I did win a race this year. I think I was more satisfied that the bird I predicted to do well did well. As for raising pigeons, knowing your birds is a big part of winning. 
As for eye sign, I will admit, I do own an eye piece. I do think it is cool to look at the eyes. But for any use of eyesign as a predictor of race results, I am like Warren. The proof is in the pudding. Show me the eyes of the top 10 birds in Belgium or the Netherlands and show me specific signs that they all have in common and I will become a believer. I am a science teacher. Show me data that supports your theory and show it to me over and over. 
As for the eyes of the birds shown. they look healthy, they look cool, and those are great pictures. 
Is winning everything to me? If doing the best that I can gets me a win then, yes. If my best does not then, no. I would rather be the increddible mediocraty, than an under achiever. 
The movie is quite funny, but don't watch it with your grandmother.

Randy


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I have to get more eye pics my club is having a pigeon show in a couple weeks. There is going to be a eye contest. I think this show is alot for fun but I want to do good. Also what should I be looking for in a show pigeon. I don't know if they are real show pigeons they are all race birds. They talked about round heads and stuff. I have no clue. Help please.


----------



## vasyapersikov (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi Im Kinda knew to the site, about eye sign, If any one knows, what are those things called that you look at the eye with?(the lens thing) and were can i find one for sale? i have an old one but it is so week. its not even meant for eye sign, i found it a few years ago


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

vasyapersikov said:


> Hi Im Kinda knew to the site, about eye sign, If any one knows, what are those things called that you look at the eye with?(the lens thing) and were can i find one for sale? i have an old one but it is so week. its not even meant for eye sign, i found it a few years ago


They are called an "eye loupe" I believe.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-loft-loupes.html


----------



## vasyapersikov (Feb 29, 2008)

*Site help*

Can someone tell me how do i post my own questions?(first day on this site)


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

vasyapersikov said:


> Can someone tell me how do i post my own questions?(first day on this site)


http://www.pigeons.biz/pigeons/index.html

Go to this link and then go to Member Exchange. You'll see the list of different catagories/subjects. Pick the one you want to post in and click on "New Thread"........and you're on your way. 
Welcome, by the way.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

*Eyesign*

Well, I would like to take this eyesign question in a different direction. I do not have very much experience with racing pigeons, but I have enough to know that about 25% of flyers "believe" in it. About 50% do not, and the rest (25% say "maybe, I don't know but there seems to be something there").

I do appreciate a good eye look. But I also appreciate a good eye/s on a woman, although I could not explain what is "good", just that it appeals to me.

I want it on the record that I am in the 25% that does not believe in it, although if people are constantly breeding only birds with a certain "eye", then most of their birds will eventually have that certain "eye" (simple genetics).

The different direction I want to put forth is this: I am a retired cop and during my career, I received training from the DEA (for use in my 9 years of undercover narcotics work), that was used to ascertain if a person I was talking with (or interviewing/interogating) was telling the truth. The method is also referred to as "Eye Sign", by law enforcement agencies. A polygraph (lie detector) is approximately 72% accurate, but "Eye Sign" is approximately 97% accurate. It is a facinating thing and was used by instructors, against me, in front of our whole class, to illustrate how it worked, and even though I tried to "beat it", everyone in the class knew each and every time I lied when asked a series of questions by our instructor.

We have all heard the old saying that "the eyes are the windows to our souls" and there is something there, no doubt. I am not trying to tell you how to tell if your birds are lying  , but I am saying that eyes can be used for more than just visual beauty, although I still do not believe that they can be used to tell a great racer from a mediocre racing bird.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

vasyapersikov said:


> Can someone tell me how do i post my own questions?(first day on this site)


 I think you already figured it out, since you just asked your first question !


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

vasyapersikov said:


> Can someone tell me how do i post my own questions?(first day on this site)







SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I think you already figured it out, since you just asked your first question !



He meant how to start a thread silly.............not actually POST a question.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> He meant how to start a thread silly.............not actually POST a question.



LOL...Warren isn't alone...I thought the same THING!  Isn't Engish a wonderful language? Sooooo clear... 

You psychic or somethin', Renee???  

Does the eye "reaction" have to do with the constriction of the pupils, Conditionfreak?

Shi

BTW, read in the paper that ALL BLUE eyed people are descended from ONE person...


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> He meant how to start a thread silly.............not actually POST a question.


Oh.........after I saw your post...it sort of hit me...like dah...of course........some of us are slower then others.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I always hate when the eye of the needle is soo small and the thread is a bit fat or frayed. You sometimes have to cut the thread and start over. 

As for eyes, I look for a healthy eye, after that I see if the bird can fly. My thoughts are the 9th and 10th are much more important that the mountains and valleys. 

As for pretty birds, they must look healthy, good, coat, nice feather and wings. After that they could look like my ex-girlfriend for that matter. 

I saw some scruffy fat birds on one of the auctions the other day. Don't buy those even if they have a good eye. Thought it was my ex-girlfriend for a minute. 

My point is health, ability, physical shape, genetics and handler mean much more than eyesign ever could. I am certian that I could find a feral pigeon with a great eyesign. Even a pig. But we all know pigs can't fly. 

Randy


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

He He. Mr. Squeaks, I read in the Bible that ALL men, regardless of the color of their eyes, came from the same man.

To answer the other question. It has nothing to do with constriction. It has everything to do with the position your eyes go to when you are attempting to recall something. You probably have noticed that when someone is thinking, trying to recall something in their memory, their eyes will either go down and to the right, or down and to the left, or up and to the right or up and to the left, just for a split second or longer. Watch someone when they are trying to recall something and you will see that it is obvious. Sometimes it lasts for a second or a few seconds, but some times it is as fast as a blink.

The key is knowing where their eyes go when they are recalling something vs where their eyes go when they are telling a lie. They are two different locations in the same person. I will not tell you hear on this public forum how to know which is which, as law enforcement may frown on that. But I will tell you this. When I lie, my eyes go up and to my left (which would be seen by another observer standing in front of me, as going up and to the right). And to answer your next question, NO, my wife does not know that about me.

At least I don't think that she does. 

Oh, and I DO KNOW where her eyes go when she lies, or thinks about lying. But I intentionally do not look for it when I am talking with her. Doing this with your spouse or children can drive you nuts. I found that out quickly and do not do it. Besides, most of us know when our family members are lying to us anyway. Body language, eye sign, etc., are learned experiences by us as we "grow up" and usually we don't even know how we know that someone is lying, but we "just know". Most of us subconsciously know this "eye sign" and body language stuff, we just can't explain it. I "do" it to politicians all of the time when they are answering questions on TV.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> He He. Mr. Squeaks, I read in the Bible that ALL men, regardless of the color of their eyes, came from the same man.
> 
> To answer the other question. It has nothing to do with constriction. It has everything to do with the position your eyes go to when you are attempting to recall something. You probably have noticed that when someone is thinking, trying to recall something in their memory, their eyes will either go down and to the right, or down and to the left, or up and to the right or up and to the left, just for a split second or longer. Watch someone when they are trying to recall something and you will see that it is obvious. Sometimes it lasts for a second or a few seconds, but some times it is as fast as a blink.
> 
> ...


Thanks...I HAVE heard/read of "eye direction" and know what you are talking about...(If your wife reads your posts, she does now!) 

Nowadays, my eyes do a LOT of "trying to remember" direction!  

Some people make a study of body language when watching politicians, as you mentioned. Also, I trust my "gut instincts." Heart and mind may say one thing but the basic "gut" reaction (intuition??) is never wrong. Works every time. If I don't listen when I should, I rue the day! 

Yes, but if Adam and Eve's eyes were both brown, where did blue come from? Mutation? Then, again, maybe ONE had blue and one brown?? Genetics...such fun!  

Shi


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I read something reciently that said researchers thought all blue eyed poeple all traced back to one person.


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

ohiogsp said:


> I read something reciently that said researchers thought all blue eyed poeple all traced back to one person.


How's that for inbreeding!
'
Dan


----------



## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

i will only say this about eyesign.i dont believe in it as a whole,however i discovered years ago that some birds eye pupils do not dialate properly. sp?
i have seen this off and on,especially in an old janssen family i had.when i found this by watching the pigeons enough,i noticed i lost alot of those birds.believe it or not,those pigeons pupils stayed huge all the time.i dont know if this was a defect in those birds,i only know i saw it in that family maybe 5 or 10 percent of the time.those birds never lasted long.other than that,i like 2 eyes on my birds,and i like it when they gleem,because they are telling me they feel great and are in super form.all the other coloring in the birds eyes is nice to look at,kind of like a nice pedigree.i dont know that it means a thing though.i have seen other birds with this pupil problem in other lofts,including breeders that people payed big bucks for.when i asked about race results on those birds,the fancier told me he had lost alot of the offspring.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ohiogsp said:


> I read something reciently that said researchers thought all blue eyed poeple all traced back to one person.


And perhaps all brown eyed people and everyone in between are also traced back to a single person !  

People who follow and "believe in" eyesign concerning pigeons, must be people of great faith. I have never been able to get one of them to explain why this "eye sign" stuff can not, or is not, used concerning race horses, race dogs, or for that matter, race car drivers ?  I don't really need any of them to prove anything to me, one way or the other.

They are part of a group which preaches the stuff, which I said requires a huge leap of faith. I personally, from a competitive standpoint, am OK with their hocus pocus.....just like tea leave readers. It makes my job of producing a race bird which can win at the races a much easier task, since there is much less real competition.

I certainly can understand why a commercial breeder will want to pander to these folks, because they want to sell their product. And if the "market" demands green eyed pigeons with a certain tail and wing etc., then by golly, that is what the merchants will offer to satisfy the demand. 

Perhaps it's because of the lack of understanding of basic genetics, that the race horse industry and the cattle industry in the USA are so much further advanced then the typical pigeon fancier. Breeding great racing pigeons should be so easy.....like stealing candy from a baby ! There are some great pigeon handlers in this country....they can manage well enough to beat the other 70 or 80 guys in their area...but breed world class pigeons ? Nope....vast, vast majority must still go to Europe to buy decent pigeons....because, they are still at such an elementary level, that they are still looking at eyeballs and looking for a "sign".

Oh....well....maybe in my lifetime.......


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

This was a really old thread but since I made this thread I have read alot of stuff and the more I read from the eyesign experts the less I believe. Everyone has a different theory and I am not sure any of it stands true constintly. Alot of guys still believe in not pairing 2 pearl eyes or that the best breeders do have a circle of adaption. I don't know if I even belive this, who knows. I am not using eyesign as a tool to pick my breeders.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I just was looking through a web site that has some birds for sale and on the description of one bird, it references that it's eyes dilate rapidly when exposed to light............I don't get it. But they (he) indicated that this was a very good sign for a pigeon to have. Many (if not most) web sites selling birds or their offspring, show close ups of the birds eyesign. Many loft owners that are interviewed on PigeonTalk.com speak of not putting together two pearl eyed pigeons.......I don't get it.

I agree with the previous poster/s that eyesign has nothing to do with being a good racing pigeon. It is an old wifes tale, that is propagated to sell birds, or to get someone gigs as a "grader" of eyesign.

As for the blue eyed human thing: Could be that we all (I am blue eyed) came from one male person originally. Maybe Adam was blue eyed. Who really knows. I did see a special on TV that stated that scientific evidence (testing DNA samples from all over the world) indicates that everyone who now lives, can be traced back to one man approximately 60,000 years ago, and that everyone now living is at least a 66th cousin.

At first you would think that we should not be fighting and killing our cousins, but then.........you know how families are 

On another note. Anyone pay attention to the color of a pigeon, when all you want to do is win races? Can you compete well with grizzles, barless, whites, etc, or is it that every once in awhile, along comes a good racer that just happens to not be the normal colors, but most slightly different colors are lacking?


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

conditionfreak said:


> I just was looking through a web site that has some birds for sale and on the description of one bird, it references that it's eyes dilate rapidly when exposed to light............I don't get it. But they (he) indicated that this was a very good sign for a pigeon to have. Many (if not most) web sites selling birds or their offspring, show close ups of the birds eyesign. Many loft owners that are interviewed on PigeonTalk.com speak of not putting together two pearl eyed pigeons.......I don't get it.
> 
> I agree with the previous poster/s that eyesign has nothing to do with being a good racing pigeon. It is an old wifes tale, that is propagated to sell birds, or to get someone gigs as a "grader" of eyesign.
> 
> ...


Do a google search on "The Golden Whitten". This was a very famous pigeon that Ludo Cleassens bred out of for years. Turned out to be one of his most succesful breeders. You will find many whites and grizzles that did well in races and as breeders. You will also find a ton or reds, silvers, blue checks and blue bars that also have done well. Any color, with any type of eye, can be found to be succesful. That shows me that color and eye have nothing to do with race and breeding quality. Just like you can find people of all colors, sizes and "eye" that do well as athletes. It's just a way that pigeon merchants have found to amaze and dazzle the unsuspecting into buying their pigeons. If you are looking for quality performers than find a loft that has quality performers and go from there.

Now, having said that, is there a place for obtaining birds that are appealing to your particular eye?...or course there is. After all, you race them a few weeks a year, but you have to look at them and clean up their crap every day. I wouldn't want a loft full of pigeons that I found to be ugly. Just don't confuse beauty in your eye to neccessarily equate to race performance.

Enjoy,

Dan


----------



## k-will (Dec 15, 2007)

as far as eyes dilating,as i said before,i have found birds that their eyes did not "function" properly.their pupils stayed huge all the time.to me this has nothing to do with eyesign.i believe it is a "fault" that has been bred into some birds that is not noticed by some fanciers.i found this by accident years ago,and noticed that these birds were often lost very quick,and never panned out to be good racers.

eyesign as advertised by many is hogwash.they do need 2 properly functioning eyes to be good racers.i believe eyes are the telltale sign of super form in racers,because when their eyes are gleeming,they are telling you they feel great.


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2008)

*OJhMJruQpwtqkTeT*

v8DUTb <a href="http://njnyfanhenoa.com/">njnyfanhenoa</a>, ulhpezghxyvh, [link=http://nkjzwuvavaeb.com/]nkjzwuvavaeb[/link], http://jktrqbfxjqyu.com/


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

What the heck are these post? Anyone know?


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

The martians are coming... That's their main language...


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ohiogsp said:


> What the heck are these post? Anyone know?


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=337802&postcount=1


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You know, I find it funny how important the eyes are to some people. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm pretty open minded to all this stuff, but I don't care much about eyesign. Especially not after they put contacts on a homing pigeon so it couldn't see, and yet it still came home, landing within feet of the loft. So if it can home without eyes, what difference does it make what they look like?  Too many other things go into making a good racer.


----------



## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Well this is my second year as a flyer, every pigeon that I had do good in the races had dark rich eyes that would glow, and pupils that would dilate in the sun. all the no good pigeons in my loft had eyes that were not dark or glowed, or pupils that would dilate in the sun. I am not a eye sign expert but I did notice this in my birds.


----------



## learning (May 19, 2006)

Lovelace said:


> Well this is my second year as a flyer, every pigeon that I had do good in the races had dark rich eyes that would glow, and pupils that would dilate in the sun. all the no good pigeons in my loft had eyes that were not dark or glowed, or pupils that would dilate in the sun. I am not a eye sign expert but I did notice this in my birds.


To me, that sounds like a sign of good health more than anything else. Just my take on it.

Dan


----------



## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

well explain why the ones that fly good their pupils dilate, and the not so good birds would not dilate as much.


----------



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Good eyes are a sign of good health I read somewhere that the pigment in the pigeons eyes is made of fat cells so it is healthy. Have you even seen a real sick pigeon their eyes turn gray. It is like they used the color in their eye to stay alive.


----------



## 000gil (Apr 21, 2011)

Looking for a copy of Brad La Vern's book {The Eye Sign Orientaion} if anyone knows where I can get one or knows someone who has one for sale please e-mail me. [email protected] Thank's Gil.


----------

