# On having a pigeons in a smokers household..



## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

I imagine some pigeon fanciers are smokers- It may seem a silly question, but how dangerous is second hand smoke for pet pigeons?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TitanicWreck said:


> I imagine some pigeon fanciers are smokers- It may seem a silly question, but how dangerous is second hand smoke for pet pigeons?



As far as I have been able to tell, there is no real Science behind all the hype about second-hand-smoke, and definitely no good Science behind the popular hysterias regarding it.

None the less, as with any airborne particulates, smoke of any kind, vaporized things of any kind, so called 'air fresheners' of any kind ( VERY BAD for Birds!) , or chemical-paint-cleaning product aerosols of any kind, Birds must be expected to be much more sensitive than the average person would be, and, for Birds, many of these common household things can be seriously harmful or deadly.

Normal indoor carpeting is likelt fifty thousand times more toxic than anyone's second hand smoke from cigarettes, and far far more ful of known carcinogenic and in other ways damaging to one;s system and organs of chemicals, yet, we will never hear anything about 'that'...but just so you know...keep Birds, Babys of any kind, Kittens, Puppys and yourself as far from synthetic carpeting as possible.

Anyway...

My own opinion as to the Cigarette question and Birds, is that if one is a moderate smoker, if the home has usually open Windows and genuine 'fresh' Air all year round, then I would say all is fine and nothing to worry about.

If a typical closed home, the Air quality will be bad, maybe VERY bad, for the Birds ( and the people, ) even when no one smokes...and in theory it could only be 'worse' if people are also smokeing...so...

Pipe Smoking, I'd say is overall the same in these ways, so long as the Tobacco is good...

Cigar smokeing, at least almost ALL cigars I have been around were such total nausiating eye stinging stinkers, and made me feel ill in seconds from all the crap in them cooking out, so, unless very, VERY expensive and definitely high quality Cigars, I'd say do not DARE to smoke those god forsaken stinkers anywhere NEAR a Bird...!


Lol...but true!

Thats my appreciation...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TitanicWreck said:


> I imagine some pigeon fanciers are smokers- It may seem a silly question, but how dangerous is second hand smoke for pet pigeons?


If second hand smoke is dangerous for humans then it defenitely is dangerous to our pet birds, especially within confines of a house or other enclosure where there is no air circulation.

It is listed on the following link..birdproofing your home.

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/birdproofing.htm


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

In addition to the second hand smoke, they also get double-hit because they
preen their feathers, so residuals that have stuck there are ingested. Best
to step outside and have the smoke and keep the bird in a smoke free environment. Of course, it ultimately the best to kick the habit for both the bird and the owner.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TitanicWreck said:


> I imagine some pigeon fanciers are smokers- It may seem a silly question, but how dangerous is second hand smoke for pet pigeons?


In my opinion *VERY* dangerous.
If inhaling 'second-hand' smoke has the potential of being dangerous to me, then it's dangerous to my pigeons. 



feralpigeon said:


> *In addition to the second hand smoke, they also get double-hit because they preen their feathers, so residuals that have stuck there are ingested. * Best to step outside and have the smoke and keep the bird in a smoke free environment. Of course, it ultimately the best to kick the habit for both the bird and the owner.
> 
> fp


Excellent points fp.  

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yep, I also agree with FP about smoking and the residue on one's hands. It's VERY irritating for them when the nicotine gets on their feathers and on their skin. I forget where I read it before, but this is a cause for a lot of skin irritation and scratching for pigeons at times. A persons should always wash your hands before and after handling your birds. Whether you're a smoker or not, the chemicals and other "germies" on our hands can cause a lot of grief for our feathered friends.


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

I was watching the classic film 'The Birdman of alcatraz' the other day- I think Burt Lancaster was in that-It seemed in every scene when he was handling thye birds, he always had a ciggarette in one hand- of course that was the 50s, and it seemed everyone smoked in the movies...
I have a friend who is a chain smoker- she cant figure out why her shetland sheepdog keeps coughing......I thinks its becuse of smoking.Lord only knows how pigeons would react to a facefull of smoke, im sure they wouldn't like it one bit...I'm a smoker, but am trying to quit...


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Dangerous Combo*

Well here we have a very intresting question, and the answer I have is that the second hand smoke can be harmful to the bird or birds.However one must realize that pigeon dust can be harmful to the people living in the house.There for I must say that a non smoker living in this house is hit with second hand smoke and pigeon dust and this combo can be very disasterous for some people. GEORGE


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

george simon said:


> Well here we have a very intresting question, and the answer I have is that the second hand smoke can be harmful to the bird or birds.However one must realize that pigeon dust can be harmful to the people living in the house.There for I must say that a non smoker living in this house is hit with second hand smoke and pigeon dust and this combo can be very disasterous for some people. GEORGE


That would be a death sentence for me.


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

what about insense?
Im not sure if pigeons have a keen sense of smell- I suppose if so, even things like thier human friends wearing too much perfume or cologne could disturb them....


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

This is a very informative previous thread concerning cigarette smoke and other scents and fumes........

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10764

Linda


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Good Post Phil*

Phil, There is no place to rate your post anymore? Anyway, I just want to say that you wrote a Good One. So Many people just want to blame One thing, like Ciggs., as it is a good Dart Board these days, when we have so many more things that should be addressed also. You said what I would like to say on this, but couldn't come up with the words... Thanks, Hap


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

I groom dogs and cats and I can't even begin to express how disgusting it is to groom a dog or cat from a smokers household. As soon as the water hits the coat, the cigarette smell fills the air and the water is dingy. I feel sorry for any animal or human who has no choice but to be trapped around a smoker. Ick. Yuck, and gross. If you must smoke, do it somewhere where all others won't be forced to breathe it yet alone be permeated with the smell of it! If you decide to smoke that is up to you, but it does not mean everyone else must do it with you!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

BBQ's are very bad. Standing next to a bbq is like sitting in room where 1000 cigarets are smoked.

Reti


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

Reti said:


> BBQ's are very bad. Standing next to a bbq is like sitting in room where 1000 cigarets are smoked.
> 
> Reti


Well, i love a good barabcue- Not sure I'd say its in an way as bad as a room filed with a nicotine cloud...
However, the thick smoke of the barbacue can singe the eyes....


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## stach_n_flash (Mar 15, 2006)

Smoking arround animals is worse than arround other people i think its 75% of all animal the endure 2nd hand smoke die. So i would say dont smoke arround your birds or other animals or were the smoke could blow to were they could breath it in.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm sooo glad we have a *smoke free* home. So are my cats & pijjies.  

Cindy


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

Then again feral pigeons seem to adapt quite well to the foul smells of city life....
Car exhaust and the smell of rotting rubbish doesnt seem to phase them in the least...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

TitanicWreck said:


> Then again feral pigeons seem to adapt quite well to the foul smells of city life....
> Car exhaust and the smell of rotting rubbish doesnt seem to phase them in the least...


Do you know what the average life span of a pigeon in the city is? ...only a few years.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

TitanicWreck said:


> what about insense?
> Im not sure if pigeons have a keen sense of smell- I suppose if so, even things like thier human friends wearing too much perfume or cologne could disturb them....





Happy said:


> Phil, There is no place to rate your post anymore? Anyway, I just want to say that you wrote a Good One. So Many people just want to blame One thing, like Ciggs., as it is a good Dart Board these days, when we have so many more things that should be addressed also. You said what I would like to say on this, but couldn't come up with the words... Thanks, Hap


Hi Titanic, 

Insense wouldn't be good for pigeons either, as it produces smoke and chemicals to make the air smell better. Birds have very sensitive respiratory systems due do having air sacs and a very refined breathing abilities which enable them to fly. I also think you're right to think that too much cologne or perfume would/could bother them as well. 

Hi Happy, 

If you want to rate Phil's post, click on the little symbol that looks like a scale in between the post # and the report a post symbol that is an exclamation mark.


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## stach_n_flash (Mar 15, 2006)

"Then again feral pigeons seem to adapt quite well to the foul smells of city life....
Car exhaust and the smell of rotting rubbish doesnt seem to phase them in the least..."




yeah but sadly enough that is why there life span is shortened


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TitanicWreck said:


> **Then again feral pigeons seem to adapt quite well to the foul smells of city life*....
> 
> ** *Car exhaust and the smell of rotting rubbish doesnt seem to phase them in the least*...


* What choice do they have?  

** Oh, I'm sure it phases them, but then again, what choice do they have?  
*WE* (humans in a general sense) are the ones polluting the air, dropping garbage on the ground, rather than walking a couple extra steps to place it in a trash bin.  

Feral pigeons would be much better off if folks would toss a handful of seeds to them rather than an old piece of a hamburger bun, hot dog, etc. 
I'm positive if a poll were taken, they would vote for cleaner air & not have to rely on old, stale, rancid food to eat. 

Cindy


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Brad, There is no Scale on Phil's posts to rate anymore. That was the 1st thing I looked for. His come out diff.. If you'll look under his name it just says registard user, & now the Scale on the right side isn't there..... Go back to page 1 of this thread & look at upper right. Hap


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

> Feral pigeons would be much better off if folks would toss a handful of seeds to them rather than an old piece of a hamburger bun, hot dog, etc.
> I'm positive if a poll were taken, they would vote for cleaner air & not have to rely on old, stale, rancid food to eat.
> 
> Cindy



I know for a fact that they prefer seed. My feral flock was given bread by a kind old woman and they flocked over to her and started eating, but then they saw me. They all left her and flew over to me. They knew I had seed (and of course they were right). 

I felt sorry for the woman. She looked at them crestfallen because they weren't interested in her stuff and I hadn't at first planned on giving them seed. I had wanted them to eat her stuff because I knew she enjoyed them too, but they wouldn't go back to her. They steadfastly waited around me until I finally gave in.

They *LOVE *seed.


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

I make a point of feeding them shelled sunflower seeds or shelled peanuts whenever I can...
I'm feeling guilty about somthing- whenever i have bread that gets stale, I crumble it up and feed it to the pigeons- My god, i hope I'm not hurting them by doing this. I love pigeons, and want to help them, not hurt them!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

TitanicWreck said:


> I make a point of feeding them shelled sunflower seeds or shelled peanuts whenever I can...
> I'm feeling guilty about somthing- whenever i have bread that gets stale, I crumble it up and feed it to the pigeons- My god, i hope I'm not hurting them by doing this. I love pigeons, and want to help them, not hurt them!


Titanic, I think that giving them occasional old bread that would otherwise be tossed is fine. Seeds are prefered but I'm sure the bread is welcomed (especially compared to some of the other food they might be scrounging ). Bread won't hurt them, it just isn't good as their main staple.  

As for smoking and animals, big no-no! I've never agreed to anyone smoking in my home under any circumstances, including roommates, guests, and boyfriend's mom!!  I know incense, too, burns my eyes and hurts my throat. Birds especially have such sensitive respiratory systems, any pollution or smoke has to be bad for them. And I've never met an animal that licked someone on the mouth when they had a cigarette in their hand......


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TitanicWreck said:


> what about insense?
> Im not sure if pigeons have a keen sense of smell- I suppose if so, even things like thier human friends wearing too much perfume or cologne could disturb them....



Hi TW, 


The broad 'answer' for Incense, is definitely "NO", not around Birds...

And while everyone seems to not have noticed it mentioned, so called 'Air Fresheners' of any kind, especially the plug-in ones that 'melt' away, are very VERY "bad" and should never be used around Birds.

Candles - same story..."bad"...

Frying greasy foods...is a "no-no"...is "bad"...

Overheating teflon or other non-stick pots and pans...a "no-no"...

Synthetic drapes, curtains, clothes brought home from the dry-cleaners...any kind of synthetic carpets or rugs..."bad"...

Floor Wax...Mop-n-Glow...Pinesol...etc..."bad"...

Houses built with flake board sub floors or sheer panels or roof sheathing, off gassing glue-borne airomatic solvents and formaldehyde and other toxins, "bad"...

Central Heat..."bad"...

Bad for Birds, bad for people...

On and on...

Anyway...

...sigh...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TitanicWreck said:


> I make a point of feeding them shelled sunflower seeds or shelled peanuts whenever I can...
> I'm feeling guilty about somthing- whenever i have bread that gets stale, I crumble it up and feed it to the pigeons- My god, i hope I'm not hurting them by doing this. I love pigeons, and want to help them, not hurt them!


Let me rephrase my earlier post a bit.

I think it's fine to give our fine feathered friends a little bread now & then. 
I was referring to the general population who discards uneaten food by throwing it on the ground, where it has the potential to become unfit for our pigeons to eat. 


Garye,
That* is *very sad about the lady who was feeding bread to the pigeons. She is one who obviously appreciates their presence.  
Does she still come around to help feed the birds?

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, rather than conjecture, I thought it prudent to just go looking in the veterinary medical books: AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, page 576, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison, and published by Wingers Publishing. It can be obtained here: www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com
...it expressly states that all kinds of problems occur in birds exposed to cigarette smoke including respiratory problems, inflammation of the eyes and eyelids, sinus problems and skin problems. Diagnosis and treatment can be tough, especially if the vet doesn't think to ask that particular question about the bird's environment. Most times, it'll all go away if the cigarette smoke goes away.

That's a summary blurb--there are many more things said in more detail about specific problems including dermatological problems that birds can get from physical contact with a smoker's fingers that have nicotine sulfate residue. So, it's clinically proven that second hand smoking is bad for birds. One comment from the book mentions that they're more at risk due to the fact that their respiratory systems are designed so much more efficiently than ours. The upshot of that is that they don't have the reserves that we do because they're designed for 100% output. We rarely utilize that and so we're usually at less risk.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Do you know what the average life span of a pigeon in the city is? ...only a few years.



Hi Tressa, all...


These statistics, like all statics, need extensive digressive qualification or explaination, to make any sense at all.

There are feral Pigeons I helped out 12 and 13 years ago, who were Adults "then" who are still looking and doing fine...who have never been anything BUT Feral Pigeons.


Las Vegas, like many other Citys, is in a Valley, and is a smog-bucket with very very bad air quality and a quite low level of human health generally.


What is the "average" lifespan of feral inner city Cats?

Beats me, but one died here awhile back who was well into his teens, maybe pushing twenty...and would not have died but for accidently getting locked in a storage building, where he starved to death and or died of hehydration or both.

And "no", no one around here feeds the feral Cats, either...even me, aside from letting some select of them roam in my shop to catch Mice...they are not many anyway...and for some years I only saw that old one around with almost never any other to be seen.

Beware statistics...

Tecnically, statistically, depending on who does the statistics, the average human life span presently is about 29 years....maybe less...maybe much less.

...if you wish to believe statistics...


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

TitanicWreck said:


> Then again feral pigeons seem to adapt quite well to the foul smells of city life....
> Car exhaust and the smell of rotting rubbish doesnt seem to phase them in the least...


Someone in PT in an earlier post stated that there are no documented cases of feral city pigeons two years or older in age.

Since reading that statement, I have not observed any feral city pigeon I have been able to identify as being more than two years old. I see a pigeon around one year plus one quarter-year season, then they are gone. 

I have been observing closely for this only since April 2004. 

If they don't last more than two years or so, and appear healthy until last seen, then it must be something accumulatng in internal organs that hits them quickly. 

ONE ASSUMPTION I think it safe for all of us to make is that all of us humans and animals such as dogs and cats and birds (excluding burrowing animals and such) are best off living in fresh open air in temperate climates. If we use that as a starting point, then anything else by definition is a compromise, and we decide how much we wish to compromise the fresh circulating air in exchange for the benefits of living in intemperate clmates, near sources of fuel, food, transportation, shared living spaces, social benefits such as housing, hospitalization, employment, shared interests, and so on. Living in or near forests exposes us to air pollution peculiar to trees; living near certain plants has its own risks. 

Most things that bother us probably bother or irritate other animas to some degree. 

Some irritants are hard to measure, but still affect us.

Larry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Larry, they occasionally do live longer than 2 years in the wild. 

We rescued an adult several years ago - had some type of injury - and released him within a few months. We saw him for at least 4 more years under the bridge and believe we rescued a few of his offspring. His markings were unmistakable.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Feral city pigeons living longer than 2 years*

Maggie,

That's good to hear, and I believe it.

The statement I referred to came from one of our PT members, and referred to city pigeons in particular. It was a bit of a scary statement, one that made you think. I do not think I have made a mistake in fact when referring to this statement. 

Something else I neglected to add: I have read (-- my safety escape hatch) that *oxygen* is what ages our cells. 

So, fresh air good for you in the short run, but dangerous in the long run. I think I'll let someone else take over these arguments (at my wife Hilde's insistence).

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maybe, Larry, the key is in the word "documented". For that, you'd have to tag the birds and run a research project. Deep in your heart, you just know that someone, somewhere, for whatever reason, has spent taxpayer dollars to do something like that. BUT, you also just know that even with the Freedom of Information Act that he (or she) didn't find it expedient to notify any one of us with the findings. 

So, believe steadfastly that somewhere there's a deep, underground, atomic-bomb-safe storage facility that has locked away in a triple-locked filing cabinet documents that scientifically justify the probability that feral pigeons on average enjoy a 1.736453 year lifespan but at maximum can live to be 4.573972 years, in the wild.

Anecdotally, Lin and I have one bird that is absolutely unmistakable to us that we think has been around for two years now. He has really done well to avoid the hawks since he's the easiest bird to see in the flock. He's all white except for one eccentric blotch on his back.

As to oxygen being bad for you, try not breathing for a few minutes and see where that gets you. However, there is some truth to what you say--molecular oxygen is essential; atomic oxygen will damage when in the form of toxic oxygen species.

Pidgey


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

> Garye,
> That is very sad about the lady who was feeding bread to the pigeons. She is one who obviously appreciates their presence.
> Does she still come around to help feed the birds?
> 
> Cindy


Yes, I still see her come by to feed them. And they still flock to her (as long as they don't spot me.)

I've thought about sharing the seed I have with her, only the problem is she usually leaves before I can get to her.

Don't worry, they still love her too. They come around when she comes around.  

I try to hide so she can enjoy them. 

Plus, although the pigeons may come over to me, the gulls stay with her. They love the bread.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I know for a fact that some of the ferals I feed most days here are more than twelve years old.

Because I cared for their injurys in 1994 and they were unambiguously adults "then".

I would not believe these trite 'statistics', especially from any schlocky government lackys snoreing through their parasite's dole-pay at desks...

Or am I the only one who has seen first hand the charm of beurocracy?

Most feral Pigeons likely do not live very long.

And, the 'average' government schlock parasite job holder lives far, far too 'long'...regardless of how 'long' that is.

Those feral Pigeons who Do live "long", Live long...

Those who do not, do not.

"Period"

That, is more wisdom than any 'stistic', or any government imbescile parasite-pedant, could hope to ennunciate

Yeeeeesh!

Lol...

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## dovegirl (Apr 15, 2006)

How long do pigeons live as pets?

Ellie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

dovegirl said:


> How long do pigeons live as pets?
> 
> Ellie


Hi Ellie.
Pet pigeons can live well in their teens.
There are some records with 20 plus years. Terry's Traveler is 20 now, I think.
I had a 17 year old.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Larry, in addition to oxygen aging us, just being alive does much the same, if you catch my drift.... . Quality of air does seem to play an important role
in good health much the same as the quality of the food/nutrition that we
eat. This is one of the theories behind crop rotation, in that growing a particular crop in one area consistently w/out rotation yields a food without the
concentration of vitamins and minerals present when rotation is practiced as the soil itself becomes depleted. 

I can say without a doubt that the two year time frame is not necessarily so,
however, due to the fact that I'm there supporting the flock, by necessity 'throws' the stats on the lifespan of these pigeons that I observe. Other considerations would also be local laws/ordinances around feeding the
pigeons--in SF, CA one could stand on a corner feeding sparrows for several
hours w/impunity, but if one pigeon shows up and eats one seed, a fine could
be imposed. Another consideration is how a given municipality deals w/'pest
control', do they leave it in the hands of the property owners or are there
laws in place that require a permit, or is it illegal? The local population of 
non-human predators will also play a role in the longevity of individual members of feral flocks as well. So, it's not an easy statistic to make blanket
statistics on overall, like Maggie, I have at least knowledge of four year ferals
in my 'bent statistic' flocks with unmistakable markings.

fp


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

Reti said:


> Hi Ellie.
> Pet pigeons can live well in their teens.
> There are some records with 20 plus years. Terry's Traveler is 20 now, I think.
> I had a 17 year old.
> ...





WOW, I had no idea they lived so long...
And city feral pigeons only live FIVE years?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

TitanicWreck said:


> WOW, I had no idea they lived so long...
> And city feral pigeons only live FIVE years?


It's not really that surprising when you stop to think about it. I have also read where pet cats that are let outdoors to roam average a lifespan of about 8 years, where cats that are kept indoor routinely live till their late teens and my own personal record was my "Mama" cat who lived to be 23! I'm sure the lifespan of feral cats is even less than 8 years.

We try to give the best living environment and nutrition to our pets...but even if it is not ideal, it is still usually worlds better than the type of dangers that the poor ferals struggle through.

Linda


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

Lin Hansen said:


> It's not really that surprising when you stop to think about it. I have also read where pet cats that are let outdoors to roam average a lifespan of about 8 years, where cats that are kept indoor routinely live till their late teens and my own personal record was my "Mama" cat who lived to be 23! I'm sure the lifespan of feral cats is even less than 8 years.
> 
> We try to give the best living environment and nutrition to our pets...but even if it is not ideal, it is still usually worlds better than the type of dangers that the poor ferals struggle through.
> 
> Linda





its amazing- Just imagine raising a tortoise- some can live up to 200 years!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

TitanicWreck said:


> its amazing- Just imagine raising a tortoise- some can live up to 200 years!


It's not uncommon for folks to make arrangements for their pets to be taken care of by a designated person in the event that they do not survive them.

fp


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> It's not uncommon for folks to make arrangements for their pets to be taken care of by a designated person in the event that they do not survive them.
> 
> fp




Thats makes me wonder- anyone here inherit thier pigeons from their parents or aunties or uncles?
Anyone here give some of their pigeons to thier children?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The best such story on here that I can think of like that is this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12086

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> I know for a fact that some of the ferals I feed most days here are more than twelve years old.
> 
> Because I cared for their injurys in 1994 and they were unambiguously adults "then".
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,

I think if every flock of ferals in the world had someone like you (and others on the forum) to help them and feed them, then we surely would see alot more geriatric feral pigeons! Wouldn't that be nice.


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## TitanicWreck (Jun 12, 2003)

I try and feed a local feral flock- one white headed individual im sure I have seen for at least 6 years-He seems happy, surounded by pigeon friends..


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