# Help! Toto, 16 years, suddenly went downhill



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Toto, my avatar, 16 years old feral rescued as a baby, living isnide my house, no contact with other pigeons, is completely passive today, does not eat or drink, one eye closed.
He is a PMV survivor. Poops green and liquid since a certain time. I gave him probiotics, but no result. Toto refuses totally any form of grit, when I first discovered pigeons need grit (1993) he was already adult and never wanted to touch it.
Cannot be bacterial, he has no contact with other pigeons.
My vet advises me giving him cortisones (Prednisone) to "boost" some strenght in him. 
What do you think? Should I take her advice? Or simply give more vitamins and probiotics while handfeeding him?
He NEVER NEVER took any medecine in his life... will the prednisone not be harmful for his digestion that is already in a bad shape?
I know he is old and maybe his time has come... but I cannot just sit down and wait for him to die.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

I'm sure you have taken the primary steps----warmth, hydrate & nourishment. Beyond that I would get a fecal and a throat swab to determine & eliminate what you can. You can buy a high calorie paste called NUTRICAL from your petshop.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Myriam,

Oh, dear, I am sorry that Toto is ill, I know how much he means to you. I hope this is just a rough day and that he will make a spontaneous recovery.

Prednisone could depress his immune system...there are free floating bacteria in the atmosphere, according to my vet, but I don't really know much about that.

Have you wormed him recently? Some insects are vectors for worms and a pigeon will occasionally eat insects.

There is a product called Poly Aid which is "to stop sick pigeons from starving", I don't know whether it is for sale in Belgium but the Birdcare Company will send it abroad http://www.birdcareco.com/acatalog/The_Birdcare_Company_Poly_Aid_150.html

I would also ty giving him echinacea to boost his immune system.

Cynthia


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

rainbows said:


> I'm sure you have taken the primary steps----warmth, hydrate & nourishment. Beyond that I would get a fecal and a throat swab to determine & eliminate what you can. You can buy a high calorie paste called NUTRICAL from your petshop.


I only have Kaytee Exact. I gave a few seeds in his mouth, but he is struggling not to eat. Drank water + "rehydrat" for birds.
A fecal will take 10 days to have the result...
I am hestitating to transport him to the vet for the throat swab, afraid of the stress (15kms in a car) now that he is so weak. I cannot really believe he could have canker, he ONLY eats and drinks in his OWN BOWLS.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

OMG, myrpalom, I can't believe your vet would not consider this senior bird to be an emergency. There is no reason to transport the bird, the vet can tell you how to preserve the fecal & oral samples. I would beg & plead for an immediate testing & reading of the results.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Myriam,

I'm so sorry to hear about Toto not feeling well.

I would only recommend some good immune boosting stuff, not knowing what is going on with him, medicine wouldn't be a recommendation until you get an idea of what is wrong with him. Does he get much sunlight and outdoor time?
How does his poop look?

I would give some B complex vitamins in the form of Brewers yeast, and a drop of organic cod liver oil, as as close to natural as possible, it will be more digestible if it is not synthetic. Also, if he doesn't have an upset stomach I would give him a garlic soft gel cap-to build his immune system and help keep any parsites away. I would even give him a half of an alfalfa tablet for extra calcium and trace minerals.But one a day, not too much at once.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Myriam,
> 
> *Prednisone could depress his immune system...*
> 
> ...


*

I wil buy some tomorrow (don't have that at hand) and give him.

Myriam*


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

rainbows said:


> OMG, myrpalom, I can't believe your vet would not consider this senior bird to be an emergency. There is no reason to transport the bird, the vet can tell you how to preserve the fecal & oral samples. I would beg & plead for an immediate testing & reading of the results.


In Belgium vets don't have their own laboratory. Samples are tested in the labs of the University Veterinarian Schools for example for my vet in Gent. It takes average 10 days. I don't know of any vet having his own lab. I will bring in his stool samples this evening aroun 8PM, so they will be sent tomorrow morning.

I was talking about transporting him for the throat swab.
Myiam


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> Myriam,
> 
> I'm so sorry to hear about Toto not feeling well.
> 
> ...



Yes, he stays in the sunshine every single day there IS sunshine in Belgium, I assume you know that is not very much in Belgium...

Trees, could you translate "cod liver oil" and "alfafa" in Dutch plesae? I don't know what they are...
Myriam


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Toto is all puffed up and breathes quickly.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry that Toto is feeling so poorly, Myriam. I don't have any words of wisdom for you, but I sure will be pulling for Toto to make a quick and full recovery.

Terry


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Myrium, I'm so sorry Toto is not feeling well. I would definitely go with putting him on a heating pad and initially hand feeding him very small amounts of Kaytee. Is his seed fresh? 

Could he have swallowed anything in your home like a staple, or, taken a bite from a plant? Anything that may be out of the ordinary for him. Personally, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about him not eating grit. My vet told me one time that she never gave her ringnecked doves grit and she had two that lived over 22 years. 

I hope and pray he will begin to improve quickly. I know he means the world to you.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

myrpalom said:


> Yes, he stays in the sunshine every single day there IS sunshine in Belgium, I assume you know that is not very much in Belgium...
> 
> Trees, could you translate "cod liver oil" and "alfafa" in Dutch plesae? I don't know what they are...
> Myriam



Does this help? 

cod liver oil
de olie van de kabeljauwlever

Alfalfa
Luzerne


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Is it possible he had a stroke?
My life partner is insomniac, and tells me that around 6.15 AM Toto was still alert, threatening him with wingslaps and and a virile " rucucu I am the boss here", eating and drinking.
I woke up late, around 9 AM (shame on me, but I also sleep badly at night) anf found Toto totally unresponsive.
In that case, what to do?


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> Does this help?
> 
> cod liver oil
> de olie van de kabeljauwlever
> ...


Thank you Renée, sure helps, I will go to the pet store tomorrow and try to find it.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

myrpalom said:


> Is it possible he had a stroke?
> My life partner is insomniac, and tells me that around 6.15 AM Toto was still alert, threatening him with wingslaps and and a virile " rucucu I am the boss here", eating and drinking.
> I woke up late, around 9 AM (shame on me, but I also sleep badly at night) anf found Toto totally unresponsive.
> In that case, what to do?


I read the thread but had no advice really. I believe that it's quite possible for birds and/or pigeons to have the same things happen to them that happen to us.
With your bird not being around other birds and pretty much isolated from the world, I tend to believe that it's more the age than anything that's really "wrong" with Toto. I sure hope he comes around.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Is his seed fresh?
> 
> Could he have swallowed anything in your home like a staple, or, taken a bite from a plant? Anything that may be out of the ordinary for him.


I give him fresh seeds twice a day. What he spills is for the ringneck doves that visit my garden, and it is a lot... In fact I feed all the birds in my garden, they all have their specific seeds, Toto has a mixture of very small seeds with lots o safflower... this is an "extra" for the wild birds.

He could not have eaten anything wrong, his cage is next to me at the computer, no plants around. He spends a lot of time on the couch, under my constant supervision or on my lap.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

myrpalom said:


> Thank you Renée, sure helps, I will go to the pet store tomorrow and try to find it.


think you will find both items in pharmacy or health food store more so than pet store.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

had 1 bird I found on cage floor--laying face forward & panting--put it on heat/no perch/food&water at its side/covered cage 3 sides & top/ it stayed that way for about 4 weeks--figured a stroke or mild heart attack--bird was 5yrs old. same bird 2 years later same pattern---same care procedures---bird is now 11 years old and thriving.
don't give up--keep trying to save toto


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well, Prednisone won't kill her, so if your vet has used it to save lives it will be worth the risk. It saved my own life 2 years ago, so I should be grateful rather than wary.

Rainbows, thank you for sharing that positive experience!

Cynthia


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

My prayers are with you and Toto, Myriam....

I wish I had something more concrete to offer - and given my recent experience, I know how difficult it is trying to decide what the correct course of treatment is (or even non-treatment).

If you're really confident in your vet, then let him do his job - particularly since his advice seems to correspond to Cynthia's experience with Prednisone - and particularly if it's injectable (presuming either you or he can do this at home rather than having to transport Toto).

If he's not eating, I'm not sure I'd try alfalfa and cod-liver oil (luzerne and huile de morue in French) or the several other supplements that have been suggested. They are certainly excellent choices under certain circumstances, but I don't have the experience to judge whether they can bring a really ill bird back in an emergency situation - if that's really the case with Toto. 

My own feeling is that _up to a certain 'reasonable' point_,- if they refuse to eat, they must have a good reason for doing so: even digesting uses vital energy that may be needed to fight the illness elsewhere, and it's possible that he's using it to clean out whatever infection has attacked his system.

Warmth, attention, observation and peace and quiet until tomorrow, when - if there's no positive change in Toto's condition - you can get on the phone to your vet and talk to him about an emergency treatment that won't put his life in further danger (again, the Prednisone comes to mind). 

I'm just a phone-call away here in Paris and I'll be up several more hours if you want to talk: _just give me a ring_ (or send me your own number) and perhaps we can review the possibilities and solutions together - and please don't hesitate - particularly in this situation. I know how hard it is considering the different courses of treatment - all which have been suggested in good faith and all of which definitely have their place - depending on the circumstances. 

Sometimes being able to talk things through with someone outside of your immediate circle can bring a different perspective and new hope... 

I _want_ Toto to pull through, so at least there's that much added intention and will in both your corner....


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Thank you all for your advice, kind and comforting words...
My two guesses are:
- a relapse of PMV (Toto caught PMV in 1999)
-a light/little? stroke

He does not find his food bowl, he wants to eat. 

*Jonathan, could you translate:
"Il a le cou ( et en fait tout le corps) un peu tordus vers la gauche, il tourne en ronds aussi vers la gauche" *

While those symptoms came so suddenly, I am thinking of a stroke. In case of a relaps of PMV, the symptoms would show up slowly, no?


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

In both cases I can only give supportive care, no?
Cynthia, would it be wise to give the prednisone in case of a stroke?
Sorry for all the questions, I am worried sick.


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

myrpalom said:


> Thank you all for your advice, kind and comforting words...
> My two guesses are:
> - a relapse of PMV (Toto caught PMV in 1999)
> -a light/little? stroke
> ...


*Translation:* _"His neck - and the rest of his body - is slightly angled towards the left, and he is turning in circles to the left..."._ 

Yes, it does sound like a PMV relapse, Myriam, and in my experience, 'slowly' doesn't enter into it: it just comes on: all of a sudden, _it's there_. If he's trying to eat, see if you can very gently hand-feed him a small quantity of whatever it is he prefers: if he manages to get it down - and seems to want more - then at least you know he can accept and digest food - which sounds like a good sign.

In that case, all of the supplements (in small quantities and little by little) sound like very good advice. Other more experienced members can perhaps contribute more here...

As for me, and since I was basically on my own with no forum support at the time, I essentially 'toughed it out' with my several PMV birds - meaning no special treatment and just leaving them alone. I don't even remember hand-feeding them in those circumstances, probably thinking that it might have been dangerous for them. What I do remember is that they all eventually pulled through pretty much on their own...

Keep on posting to let us know what's going on - and call me at any time you want or need to: I'll be up very late.

(Addendum): Do we (or should we) believe in 'signs' from our birds? After debating the pros and cons of telling you this, I'll take the chance - hoping that we both won't regret it later: For the last forty-five minutes that I've been thinking about the situation and that we've been posting back and forth, Poopzilla has been sitting right on top of the screen of my iMac with his back turned away from me and adding his own 'running commentary' - as if to say, _"It's not as bad as you guys seem to think."_ He did a variation on the same theme last week when _he_ was ill and I was hammering away on the keyboard posting and responding to messages from other members: all of sudden, he began muttering to himself, walked over and started biting my toes. My feeling at that moment was the same as now: he was telling me to calm down and take it easy and that he was nowhere as bad off as I imagined.

How I hope he's trying to get the same message across tonight for Toto....
*
*


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Myriam,

I treated one of our relapsed PMV hens with Prednisone (AZWhitefeather advised me about initial and reducing dosage), it didn't make any immediate difference, but a while after the course was finished she made a spontaneous recovery and has not relapsed again.

I wish I knew what caused the "relapse", I have often suspected it is something like a stroke, perhaps the PMV lesions leave areas of weakness.

I was just watching one of our PMV recoveries that has had a relapse today, and his "relapse" symptoms are that he holds his head at an angle and spins when stressed. 

If Toto seems to be looking for his bowl with hunger try filling a dog bowl or a baking dish or something similar with his favourite seed, something that he can stand in and that will enable him to "hit" seed wherever he pecks.

Cynthia


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hi Myriam,

I would follow Cynthia's advice if I were you. She is very experienced and the treatment is nice and simple, so that you don't have to turn around in circles. You musn't pass your stress to Toto as stress is the last thing he needs. I know he will get from you all the peace and quiet and the feeling of security he needs. Try to find some comfort in the knowledge that you are doing all you can for him. I wish with all my heart that you will soon be able to leave this bad moment behind. Love, Gladys


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm so sorry your Toto is not feeling well. I have my own little Toto, those Totos seem to have extra sweetness in their personalities.  I hope your Toto is feeling back to normal very soon.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

myrpalom said:


> I give him fresh seeds twice a day. What he spills is for the ringneck doves that visit my garden, and it is a lot... In fact I feed all the birds in my garden, they all have their specific seeds, Toto has a mixture of very small seeds with lots o safflower... this is an "extra" for the wild birds.
> 
> He could not have eaten anything wrong, his cage is next to me at the computer, no plants around. He spends a lot of time on the couch, under my constant supervision or on my lap.



Hi myrpalom,



I am very sorry to hear of these difficulties.



Any Pigeon, indoors and solitary or otherwise, has their own 'background' populations of Bacteria and other micro-organisms...


Depenging on vagueries of their system, the health or robustness of their immune system, or whataver other factors...they can become ill even if having had no contact with other Birds.



I have seen what seemed like partial relapses in some of my PPMV survivors...or, symptoms suggesting relapse which were possibly occuring from a 'new' illness, but which were bringing 'back' some of the old PPMV type signs, poops, or just looking like they are not feeling well.


Having various meds on hand, I have treated these variously, usually treating with 'Metronidaole' just for good measure...and Antibiotics.



Without your Pigeon having an examination by someone who is familiar practically, with the illnesses or conditions they can get...it is very hard from 'here' to guess about.


Possible concerns known to show a diminished appetite, puffed-up Pigeon, lethargy, or all three, could be -


'Canker' ( Metronidazole ideally, or other Canker med...)


'Candida' or Yeast or Fungal infection in the Crop and Digestive System (Medistatin, Nystatin, or Apple Cider Vinegar at diluted ratio of say 4 Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon of Water...)


'Unknown Bacterial infection' occuring systemically ( Antibiotics would be used for this )


'Coccidiosis' (Apertex or many other meds )


'Worms' (Worm Pill )


Virus (Supportive care, Vitamine-Mineral suppliments, warmth )



I would do lots of warm 'cuddling' also.



Belgium is famous for it's love of Racing Pigeons...


Can you perhaps find an experienced 'Pigeon Vet' somewhere near you?




If only having to 'guess' and do something - rather than to do nothing -


I would consider to get her on, say, Doxycycline...and Metronidaole...and if any hints of 'Worms' being a possibility ('Dotty' tiny poops, very thin poop-snakes, anything or even if only that she has not been wormed in a while, then ) 'worm' her...and if any hints of Crop 'sours' or 'slows', then ACV and or 'Medistatin'...


She can fast a few days if her system is upset or infected or sensitive somehow...but she can be fed if her digestive system is working alright...'fed' by hand if not eating on her own.



Good luck..!



Phil
l v


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can buy cod liver oil in a drugstore or pharmacy. It is used by people.


----------



## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I hate to say this but is it just possible that due to his old age he is coming to the end of his life? Clearly you take great care of him but I thought average lifespans for pigeons were around 15 years.

I sure hope this is not the case and that he has many years left. I just thought I would ask.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

myrpalom said:


> Yes, he stays in the sunshine every single day there IS sunshine in Belgium, I assume you know that is not very much in Belgium...
> 
> Trees, could you translate "cod liver oil" and "alfafa" in Dutch plesae? I don't know what they are...
> Myriam


levertraan (cod liver oil)

http://www.fonteine.com/levertraan.html

alfalfa,(lucerne) is a plant that is dried and made into tablets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfalfa



I don't get it at the pet store, both products are for human consumption, but I give 1/4 of a human dose to my birds. A drop of cod liver oil is enough for a pigeon for a month. The alfalfa comes in tablets and I break off a 1/4 of it.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

*Toto: happy update*

I think Toto had a little stroke.
Yesterday and this morning, he seemed totally blind, looking for his food and not finding it.
This afternoon, around 5 PM, he suddenly got to his bowl and started eating, not as much as I would expect, but he ate, and responded when I 
called his name.
I don't expect that he will be his old self again, but at least, the consequences of the stroke seem to fade away. I don't think he can see well again, but he knows the place of his bowl and I hope the blindness is temporary. Yesterday he had one eye closed, today his eyes are both open...

He is preening in this very moment and seems to enjoy his little life 
again. He coos when I caress him. 
He is an incredibly strong bird, he has survived PMV and now a stroke. (if 
my diagnosis is right) I am so happy he is getting better. I spent the night next to him, I cannot imagine my life without him.
I ordered Poly Aid. It is available in Belgium. I think I will have to add 
some of this to his food every day, because he cannot pick up enough seeds 
to cover his daily needs.
I thank everyone of you who stand by me in this difficult moment with advice and comforting words.
I will re- read the thread tomorrow (after a good night sleep) and make a list of the supplements to buy for Toto's health care.
Myriam


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Myriam,

I'm SO glad to hear your little "trooper" Toto, is doing better.

Give him a BIG hug and kiss from me.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is excellent news, Myriam.

I kept My Little Angel alive on Poly Aid for weeks, she was so weak and sick when she was brought to me that we didn't think she would last the night, but because a small quantity of Poly Aid has all the nutrition that they need she hung on until she was able to feed herself.

Give Toto a little kiss from me.

Cynthia


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Those are wonderful news, Myriam, am very happy for both of you. Have a good sleep and rest, no use making yourself ill. Love, Gladys


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Myriam, thank you for the wonderful update. I have been so worried.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Myriam, I am so glad Toto is feeling better. I have been following this thread and I was hoping to read a good update today.

Reti


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Very good news, Myriam: keep us posted on Toto's progress


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Myriam,

I just caught up with this thread. I am so glad to read that Toto is doing better today. Yes, I think you are correct, he must have had a small stroke. I know you are giving him all the supportive care he needs and that others who know much more than I are helping with answering questions and advice. So just want you to know I am wishing him recovery and health. I know how difficult it is when one of our loved feathered ones is ill. Sometimes I think the love we communicate to them is healing in itself, and I know you are giving Toto all the love possible.

Margaret


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Myriam,

I have been following this thread praying and hoping for recovery for your little Toto. I am so happy to hear he seems better today. When I think about how attached I am to my own little pet piegon I can only imagine the worry and upsetment you have been going through.

Please get some rest for yourself and keep us updated on his continued progress.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

up date on Toto, please


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Toto is still doing fine under the circumstances.
He is eating, although not enough, I completed with some Kaytee, but he fights me like a horse, must be stressful for him. He absolutely refuses to be handfed...
I have no clue how he manages to eat . When I make movements in front of his eyes, there is no reaction, as if he were blind. But if he chooses THIS seed (safflower or "negerzaad?????????" very small black round seeds) then manages to pick THIS seed... how does he do that, if he is blind or at least does not see well at all?
He preens, and coos when I call him (which he did not do for 2 days) so I suppose he did not hear after the stroke. His voice regains strenght.
My only concern are his poos: dark green, not solid at all (not runny either) and no "white thing"... something to do with urates and his kidneys? Does anyone know what it means when the white part is missing? I read somewhere that a PMV bird has damaged kidneys forever? Is this correct? Is there anything I can do or give to protect the kidneys and stop the proces?

 Well maybe it is too early to panic, he just made a poo, more solid and there is some white... There is a product in his drinking water with vitamines, amino acids, electrolyts and enterococcus faecium (I was told it is a probiotic) Maybe it will help his stools to become more healthy.
I am awaiting the Poly Aid which does a lot of good for weak birds and hope Toto will get used to the handfeeding.
Myriam


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

I bought this very expensive product called "Prodigest" containing "enterococcus faecium".
I just looked that up on Wikipedia and here is what I found:

"Enterococcus faecium is a gram positive bacterium in the genus Enterococcus. It can be a commensal (a non-harmful coexistence), in the human intestine, *but it may also be a pathogen causing disease*. Antibiotic resistant Enterococcus faecium is often referred to as 'VRE', Vancomycin-resistant enterococcus."

?????????????????????????????

The Prodigest is made by the most well known vet and pigeon fancier of Belgium, Herbots.

Any ideas??


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

I just checked out his website and his pigeon products: they all look very good, and personally, I wouldn't worry about what you found in Wikipedia.

A phone call to the guy would probably resolve any questions you may have...

Glad to hear that Toto is perking up!


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

myrpalom said:


> I bought this very expensive product called "Prodigest" containing "enterococcus faecium".
> I just looked that up on Wikipedia and here is what I found:
> 
> "Enterococcus faecium is a gram positive bacterium in the genus Enterococcus. It can be a commensal (a non-harmful coexistence), in the human intestine, *but it may also be a pathogen causing disease*. Antibiotic resistant Enterococcus faecium is often referred to as 'VRE', Vancomycin-resistant enterococcus."
> ...


Since it's made by or sold by Herbots, I wouldn't have ANY second thoughts on giving to my birds. 

http://www.herbots.com/en/products/prodigest.htm


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Herbots lives about 12 km from Lapalomatriste.
I went to him twice, with 3 very ill pigeons. His diagnosis was right, streptococcus, a guess, I think, I doubt he has a lab to find out bacteries.
2 pigeons survived, one was too far gone. He gave them a cortisone injection and gave me synulox and his home made vitamins "Superflight". 
An older pigeon came in shock from the cortisones and was more dead than alive for more than an hour. Then she recovered and responded well to the synulox treatment.
That is why I was reluctant when I was told to give Prednisone to Toto.
Jonathan, he is the one I was referring to when I told you whe have a few good vets in my neighbourhood.
Only problem: he looked at me as if I were nuts, because two of the pigeons were ferals..


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> Since it's made by or sold by Herbots, I wouldn't have ANY second thoughts on giving to my birds.


Is he known in USA????????


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

myrpalom said:


> Toto is still doing fine under the circumstances.
> He is eating, although not enough, I completed with some Kaytee, _but he fights me like a horse, _must be stressful for him. _He absolutely refuses to be handfed..._
> Myriam


Without wanting to hijack or otherwise deviate this thread, the above comments open up another important question: is it 'right' (in the context of treating an ill bird) to _force_ it to take medication, or should we remain confident in its own instincts to refuse food, specific medicinal treatments, handling, etc.

Myriam's comments raise an interesting question, and one which is particularly pertinent in the case of Toto: a pigeon who has been living with Myriam for 16 years and who must certainly be perfectly confident and trusting concerning her intentions towards him. 

Naturally, I'm not talking about a feral that we might have to treat, or authentic emergency situations with one of our own companions.

I'd welcome the opinion of some of our experienced healers and rehabbers here.


Addendum:



myrpalom said:


> Jonathan, he is the one I was referring to when I told you whe have a few good vets in my neighbourhood.
> Only problem: he looked at me as if I were nuts, because two of the pigeons were ferals..


Sure, some people just can't _relate...._ But at least he's close by, seems to know what's he's doing, and apparently sells very good products. What's not to like? 

And anyway, for many people, we _are_ nuts! There are even times when I doubt my own sanity.... 

(Hmm....that gives a whole new dimension to my forum signature....  )


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jon, good, thoughtful question you raised.

Personally, I feel it is the proper thing to do, if necessary, to "force" feed or give meds. Pigeons are much like children in that they don't know what is best for them and will fight you to the end. However, I want my pigeons to survive and if that means "wrestling"  with them a bit to get food/meds down them, then that is what we do.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Without wanting to hijack or otherwise deviate this thread, the above comments open up another important question: is it 'right' (in the context of treating an ill bird) to _force_ it to take medication, or should we remain confident in its own instincts to refuse food, specific medicinal treatments, handling, etc.




Hi ryyannon,



Generally...if one does not persuade, or, even, impose...for the sick Bird to accept Medicines or sometimes Tube-Feeds...the result will be a 'dead' Bird, rather than a recovering/recovered one.


Granted...this is in every way, a question which resolves on the insight, experience, sensitivity and judgement of the Care Giver.



While we may respect what might be the Bird's instincts or judgement about his own affairs, and about his interest in accepting or rejecting treatment...


We may also find, that a resolution to his issue may be beyond his resources to acheive, even if he resists or resents our interventions.


Most Pigeons, at least as far as my experience goes, will gladly accept a 'Pill' if it is explained to them, and offered in ways they understand.


Possibly, a Bird intuitively knows that the Medicine we are about to offer or impose, is the 'wrong' one...and or, possibly, they might intuitively know if the 'right' one is being offered.


I believe this is well worth exploring.


But, I would not be too naive, nor relay on intimations as rote...ininterpreting what the Bird's reactions to respective offerings might be...or, I'd allow each instance to be it's own 'experiment'.



Some Pigeons simply do not wish to be held, and with that, they have no patience for anything which comes of being held...so, at that point, there is no co-operative theme, and no specific judgement the Bird is making, other then they do not wish to be held...


Some who hate being held one way, will accept being held a different way...but possibly, only for a short time, before rejecting the situation.


Lol...




> Myriam's comments raise an interesting question, and one which is particularly pertinent in the case of Toto: a pigeon who has been living with Myriam for 16 years and who must certainly be perfectly confident and trusting concerning her intentions towards him.




It is not that simple...


Birds, Pigeons, have a far more sensitive and important need for their Balance and position to be honored...and the resistance we encounter is sometimes more about that, than anything else.


I would not expect any Bird to discard their own judgement and intuitive-process to favor arbitrary or capricous interference...nor to favor insult.


Some Pigeons with prior history and gradual leading up to it, will let you lay them any way at all and accept full body massages and just be totally relaxed,


Few to none would allow this out of the 'blue'...




> Naturally, I'm not talking about a feral that we might have to treat, or authentic emergency situations with one of our own companions.
> 
> I'd welcome the opinion of some of our experienced healers and rehabbers here.




Every Pigeon is an individual...


I get in 'ferals' who are far FAR more trusting, compliant, at-ease, and willing, patient, and co-operative participants in their exams and treatments...than any of the ones I have had living in here and known for years.


I have one now like that...he was initially freightened, upset, untrusting...and literally after I explained things to him, everything changed, and he was very co-operative, allowing exams and meds with no fuss...

...others like him will take an offered Pill with their Beak and eat it, with no one even having to hold them or pry their Beak open.



Phil
l v


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Would you let a child decide whether or not to take their medicine? If they had such good instincts, in knowing what was good for them, or what would help them, or even knew what medicine is, then why do they eat moldy food, or tacks, or staples, or infected poop, or any other assortment of things that would certainly be detrimental to their health? I would do whatever it took to help one of my birds, whether he liked it or not. Now I am certainly no expert, or even a licensed rehabber, but I do care enough about my birds, to not ask their opinion in whether they want me to help them, or just stand by and watch them die.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jay3 said:


> If they had such good instincts, in knowing what was good for them, or what would help them, or even knew what medicine is, then why do they eat moldy food, or tacks, or staples, or infected poop, or any other assortment of things that would certainly be detrimental to their health?


Simply because "real" food is scarce and they do what they have to do in order to survive. 

Terry


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Would you let a child decide whether or not to take their medicine? If they had such good instincts, in knowing what was good for them, or what would help them, or even knew what medicine is, then why do they eat moldy food, or tacks, or staples, or infected poop, or any other assortment of things that would certainly be detrimental to their health? I would do whatever it took to help one of my birds, whether he liked it or not. Now I am certainly no expert, or even a licensed rehabber, but I do care enough about my birds, to not ask their opinion in whether they want me to help them, or just stand by and watch them die.


That's pretty clear.

But your _reductio ad absurdum_ was not at all what I was suggesting - or even implying. 

Did you actually _read_ my post, or do you just enjoy trying to make people look stupid?


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Every Pigeon is an individual...
> 
> Phil
> l v



Yep, that's about the long and short of it, Phil 

A couple of hours ago, I was working on what I hoped was a reply worthy of your own post when I hit some stray button on the keyboard and lost it all 

It was _way_ too long to try to remember and rewrite.

Never try to type with one hand and smoke a cigar with the other


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Would you let a child decide whether or not to take their medicine? If they had such good instincts, in knowing what was good for them, or what would help them, or even knew what medicine is, then why do they eat moldy food, or tacks, or staples, or infected poop, or any other assortment of things that would certainly be detrimental to their health? I would do whatever it took to help one of my birds, whether he liked it or not. Now I am certainly no expert, or even a licensed rehabber, but I do care enough about my birds, to not ask their opinion in whether they want me to help them, or just stand by and watch them die.



Hi Jay3,



Certainly, individual Pigeons can be liable to errors in judgement, which to us may seem simple, or obvious, as for the choice they ought to have elected instead.


Even as people are liable to errors of judgement, which to others, or even themselves afterward, may seem simple, or obvious, as for the choice they ought to have elected instead.



Intervening into the affairs of others, of course carries with it, potential concerns and responsibilities, whose interpretation or exercise will vary with the character and lights of the individul...including the potential for errors in judgement, which to others, or in hindsight, when errorshave beenmade, may seem simple, or obvious, as for the choice that ought to have elected instead.


Such is the Nature of things...and of everyone's position in them.


We all know this of course...I just felt like thinking aloud a little...



Best wishes...



Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ryannon said:


> Yep, that's about the long and short of it, Phil
> 
> A couple of hours ago, I was working on what I hoped was a reply worthy of your own post when I hit some stray button on the keyboard and lost it all
> 
> ...




Typing with one Hand is a drag...like 'totally'...


I know..!


Hey, try eating ANY kind of Meal for example, with a vocal, runs up leaping, assertive, WAY happy it's Chow-Time 'Bantam' Hen landing HARD with those HUGE Therpod yellow FEET onto your plate...Feet "on" your would-be-food...and going at your Sandwich or whatever with that lightening-fast Beak...no different than a gleeful Tyrranosar Standing on it's prey...ripping and flinging and swallowing and 'narrating' as they go...


It ain't easy brother...even without a Cigar..!


You need Arms like 'Vishnu' around here, just to get by at all..!



Lol...


Phil
l v


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

While we're waiting for the next update on Toto, I thought I'd share this space oddity:

Herbots in _Chinese_ 




It's somewhat different from their English version: the enormous pigeon-head on the right, with that one incredible eye, gives you the impression that he's thinking about the possibilities of having the whole Herbot family for dinner. Bet a dollar to a dime that it was designed by a Chinese dude....


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hey, try eating ANY kind of Meal for example, with a vocal, runs up leaping, assertive, WAY happy it's Chow-Time 'Bantam' Hen landing HARD with those HUGE Therpod yellow FEET onto your plate...Feet "on" your would-be-food...and going at your Sandwich or whatever with that lightening-fast Beak...no different than a gleeful Tyrranosar Standing on it's prey...ripping and flinging and swallowing and 'narrating' as they go...
> 
> Lol...
> 
> ...



Ah, those memories of a sqeaker making it all the way across the room, wings flapping madly, screaming every possible pigeon-equivalent of _Banzai!_ - and landing with an unforgettable _ploof_ right in the middle of my just-served plate of spaghetti like a little feathered bomb, sending up a huge cloud of grated Parmesan cheese which covered _everything_: me, him, the keyboard...

Gotta love the squeakers....


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ryannon said:


> While we're waiting for the next update on Toto, I thought I'd share this space oddity:
> 
> Herbots in _Chinese_




The people in the ad are very scarey looking...



Pil
l v


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> The people in the ad are very scarey looking...
> Pil
> l v


Definitely. The whole thing is scary-looking.

Compare to English version:




I'm thinking that the Chinese either have a great sense of twisted humor or they really don't like us at all - or perhaps both! 

I wonder if the prices are the same?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Simply because "real" food is scarce and they do what they have to do in order to survive.
> 
> Terry


Terry, I don't just mean ferrals, whose food is scarce, I mean all pigeons would probably eat these things if given the opportunity. I just don't think they always know what is and what isn't good for them. They are like children. They depend on us to know what is right for them, and to do the best we can for them. Whether they agree or not.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ryannon said:


> Without wanting to hijack or otherwise deviate this thread, the above comments open up another important question: is it 'right' (in the context of treating an ill bird) to _force_ it to take medication, or should we remain confident in its own instincts to refuse food, specific medicinal treatments, handling, etc.


ryannon, sorry if I have offended you. And yes I did read your post. I just don't see how else one could have taken your question. All I was saying was that if the bird needs help or medications, we do it. It can't matter that the bird doesn't want our intervention. Most birds wouldn't want us handling them to give them meds, or trying to get them to eat. But if we went with what the bird wanted, many would die, that don't have to. That's all I was saying. Again, sorry if I offended.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Typing with one Hand is a drag...like 'totally'...
> 
> 
> I know..!
> ...


ROFL!!!!!!!

I am so glad to hear Toto is feeling better. I have been thinking about him and adding prayers for his recovery. He may have only partial sight right now, but should be able to get along fine that way, especially since as you mentioned his food and water are in the same spots as usual. I hope he continues to do well!

Jay, I knew what you meant when you wrote that. I didn't think it was meant to be offensive or anything when I read it.


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

As inoffensive (_or anything_) as lipstick on a pig.

Heh

End of story, ok?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi myrpalom,



Would you please post more images of 'Toto'?



Also...how is Toto doing?


Phil
l v


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi myrpalom,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was just about to ask the same... 


You're either up early or late to bed, Phil.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Without wanting to hijack or otherwise deviate this thread, the above comments open up another important question: is it 'right' (in the context of treating an ill bird) to force it to take medication, or should we remain confident in its own instincts to refuse food, specific medicinal treatments, handling, etc.
> 
> Naturally, I'm not talking about a feral that we might have to treat, or authentic emergency situations with one of our own companions.


I can't say that I'm an experienced healer or rehabber, but I offer my point of view nonetheless for what it's worth. The following may sound nauseatingly "new agey" to some, but I suspect you, Ryannon, will understand where I'm coming from.

I do believe that animals have not only their own wisdom about their bodies but also preferences about their treatment, just as you are I would. I don't really see our animal companions as children--I mean, they are in the sense that they are dependent upon us to provide them with food and shelter, but I otherwise don't equate them with children, mentally or spiritually. 

I don't know if I would appreciate being "force" fed if I were, say, nauseous, and I think that if an animal is not eating, it's for a reason. This is why I generally would never use an artificial appetite stimulate (like cyproheptadine) except in cases of emergency. (I would, however, gently encourage eating with "assist" feeding of palatable foods.)

I try to respect each animal as an individual, whole being. Where possible, I aim to allow them to make their own decisions regarding what happens to them and do my best to respect their wishes. 

Jennifer


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

pdpbison said:


> Hi myrpalom,
> 
> Would you please post more images of 'Toto'?
> Also...how is Toto doing?
> ...


Toto is doing very well. 
His poos are looking better, more solid. Although you look scary and ugly : Thank you mister Herbots, for the probiotics!
Toto is lively, coos, calls me and preens like before and eating well. Maybe he does not see as well anymore as before, but he is obviously 
not blind (anymore?).
He also enjoyed taking his bath today and drying his feathers in the final september sun ( 26°C/79°F, tomorrow 16°C/61°F) and... 
he starts to be bossy again .

Here are pics of him on tuesday and wednesday when he was not ok, I'll take a pic of him tomorrow to show the difference (my camera works 
with batteries that I have to reload)
Thank you all so very much for your concern about Toto, I already told him he is a celebrity!


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

ryannon said:


> Ah, those memories of a sqeaker making it all the way across the room, wings flapping madly, screaming every possible pigeon-equivalent of _Banzai!_ - and landing with an unforgettable _ploof_ right in the middle of my just-served plate of spaghetti like a little feathered bomb, sending up a huge cloud of grated Parmesan cheese which covered _everything_: me, him, the keyboard...



 Long time ago that I had such a good laugh!


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Those are such touching photos, Myriam.... One can see and even _feel _what a wonderful and attaching bird Toto is - even with the bossiness and the rough edges that you've mentioned, and which I'm certain only add to his charm. 

It's _so_ sad to see him in that state - and so good to know that he's pulled through.

May you share many more years of companionship together


----------



## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

jenfer said:


> I do believe that animals have not only their own wisdom about their bodies but also preferences about their treatment, just as you are I would. I don't really see our animal companions as children--I mean, they are in the sense that they are dependent upon us to provide them with food and shelter, but I otherwise don't equate them with children, mentally or spiritually.
> 
> I don't know if I would appreciate being "force" fed if I were, say, nauseous, and I think that if an animal is not eating, it's for a reason. This is why I generally would never use an artificial appetite stimulate (like cyproheptadine) except in cases of emergency. (I would, however, gently encourage eating with "assist" feeding of palatable foods.)
> 
> ...



I couldn't have said it better than that, Jennifer. If I were a sick bird, I'd consider myself lucky to find myself in your hands...

I suspect that there are numerous other members who are pretty much on the same wave-length: you just can't live on a day-to-day basis with a pigeon (or probably any other animal) without coming to the same conclusions as you have.

Now that I think about it, it's probably one of the many 'lessons' they can teach us, about themselves, ourselves and others.

Thanks for adding your commentary; I can tell it's one from the heart


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*SOOOOO GLAD TO HEAR THAT TOTO IS DOING AND FEELING BETTER, MYRPALOM!! Thank you for the update!!* 

Ry/Jon and Phil, your descriptions of food "landings" are absolutely hysterical! AND, so appropriate for each: Bantam chicken and pigeon! 

Just to state the obvious: I doubt that anyone would deny that there are some people who have a "way" with animals and/or birds. I call them Dr. Doolittles and "whisperers." ALL are "naturals." 

Many learn from experience and through mentors, etc., but those who seem to "naturally know," I admire tremendously! There are also those humans who seem to "know" other humans and we call them "Psychics." 

I think most, if not all, of us are born with certain of these abilities. But what happens between birth and adulthood, can either enhance or delete. Many fear what they don't understand and, unfortunately, will either attack or destroy. More's the pity.

IF mankind can survive, perhaps....someday...these "special" abilities will be commonplace and mankind will be the better for them. 

Meanwhile, I'm still trusting and exploring my "gut instincts." 

Love and Hugs

Shi


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Myrpalom,

I am so glad to hear that Toto continues to improve. What a lovely fellow he is even feeling as ill as he did. He continues in my thoughts and prayers.

Jennifer, 

I must agree with all you said in your post. It is our privilege to have the contact that we do with them. For those who pay attention, they do have their own innate wisdom, passed down I'm sure from the generations before them. I would say this applies to most of the animal kingdom. 

Margaret


----------

