# Ice pigeons



## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

If you bread a clean legged ice pigeon to a saddle would it be possible to get a ice saddle homer or are there any around already.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

There are no ice homers at the moment. An F1 cross probably wouldn't be very good at homing probably. Saddle is not a gene but rather piebald being made into the controlled look of, i believe. So you could get somewhat of a saddle going but it would probably be far from presentable.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

bet it would still be pretty


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They'll take some time to make. Saddle is complex but ice isn't as difficult luckily. You can tell the kids split for Ice are influenced by it.

Never fear, Becky is here  I have two ice pigeons (one is an Ice Pigeon and the other is a F1 (?) ice Roller from Mr. Turner) and will be starting my ice racer project this coming breeding season.

They will go on my saddles too so I will let you know the F1 outcome. I'm putting them on everything I have even though the recommended cross is with blue bars and blue checks.

This WAS going to be a secret but I guess that just went out the window, LOL.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

well if you just want a pretty bird then you wouldn't need to cross homer into it.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> If you bread a clean legged ice pigeon to a saddle would it be possible to get a ice saddle homer or are there any around already.


* Hi Shady bug, what color is the saddle? Use only a blue bar your FI young will be carriers of the ice gene, and can produce ice if you mate it to another bird carring the ice gene. You must understand that it takes some time to breed out any of the other genes that the ice parent has pass to the young F1,and you will never realy breed out those genes completey. You should try to get some of the genetic books and realy study them. I will try to answer any questions that you have but you must also understand that I am not a expert in the subject of genetics * GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> They'll take some time to make. Saddle is complex but ice isn't as difficult luckily. You can tell the kids split for Ice are influenced by it.
> 
> Never fear, Becky is here  I have two ice pigeons (one is an Ice Pigeon and the other is a F1 (?) ice Roller from Mr. Turner) and will be starting my ice racer project this coming breeding season.
> 
> ...


HI BECKY, I will be breeding some of my intermediate ice and one of my ice Italian owls to my race birds it was also to be a secret. ..GEORGE


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> They'll take some time to make. Saddle is complex but ice isn't as difficult luckily. You can tell the kids split for Ice are influenced by it.
> 
> Never fear, Becky is here  I have two ice pigeons (one is an Ice Pigeon and the other is a F1 (?) ice Roller from Mr. Turner) and will be starting my ice racer project this coming breeding season.
> 
> ...


good luck!.. has there been any other keepers that have been working on ice on color homers?... seems like it would be a popular thing to do..seeing the color is so beautiful..


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks everyone, I was just offered some ice pigeons at the last show and was just wondering what you would get if you crossed them.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There are none currently that I know of. Maybe one or two people that have started but never got anywhere with them. There's a guy in australia that has made the cross but I doubt they have any homing ability. He's just a color guy (and a very controversial one at that).


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I know of a couple of people who have tried to work ice into their homers. There was a guy here in South Africa who did such a cross, but I assume he gave up, since he's not responded to a couple of emails I have sent him.

I know there are 'homers' in Asia and Romania that are ice, but they are obviously not of the Belgian homers. Those would probably be great source material for transferring ice to the Belgian homer strains.

Here is an excerpt from a mail Richard Cryberg sent me in response to a question about ice homers a couple of years back.



> ... based on the observation that it is easy to move a poor ice into a new breed but quite hard to move really good ice phenotype into a new breed. Still, with persistence I think it would not be all that hard to move ice into Homers ...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Nothing is impossible  I'm willing to put however much time into it that it will take. I might die before it happens but at least I tried to do something productive in the pigeon world.
Ice in general, whether it's a light gray or a porcelain color, is still pretty in my opinion. The F1 cross I have is actually prettier than the pure Ice Pigeon I got with it.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Nothing is impossible  I'm willing to put however much time into it that it will take. I might die before it happens but at least I tried to do something productive in the pigeon world.


That is a hard statement not to agree with, and I like the breeding and excitement of waiting for the results way more than any other part of the hobby. So I'm all for trying. I just thought to mention that it might not be as easy as some might think. As long as you are aware, I applaud your foray into uncharted territories in genetics. ;-)

And you're still young, and sound rather determined. If you aren't able to manage it before you expire at a ripe old age, I would be quite surprised (disappointed actually - if you can't do it, no one can!). 


MaryOfExeter said:


> Ice in general, whether it's a light gray or a porcelain color, is still pretty in my opinion. The F1 cross I have is actually prettier than the pure Ice Pigeon I got with it.


To my mind, the F1s of any breed mix are often the prettiest pigeons, especially when the dominant and co-dominant genes are concerned. My archangel x barb F1s are my most prized.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

In general all saddle homers are opals and ash. FS needs (spread) . These two factors will not go with with FS or TS. 

As george said you can use blue bar hen (coming from Dominant opal parents) because this bird will not carry the opal gene.

good luck.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Saddles come in all colorations, not just opal or ash-red. Not all Ice Pigeons are toy stenciled either. To get the ice coloration in general, you don't need it, although it would be a nice addition. That adds another factor into the mix if you want to perfect it as well.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Saddles come in all colorations, not just opal or ash-red. Not all Ice Pigeons are toy stenciled either. To get the ice coloration in general, you don't need it, although it would be a nice addition. That adds another factor into the mix if you want to perfect it as well.


Thank you becky, I know that not all ice are (ts) but, I'm very sure are all saddle homers are opals and ash. (have you ever seen a Black saddle homer with a white bar??)... There are many other saddle breed (Black white bar) such as swallow but not in saddle homers. 

I was meaning the TS will not be expressedor extracted proberly with ash. and will be dead with opal because it will be changed to an (Dominant opal bar) not a (TS).

I'm breeding saddles for about 18 years and I'm sure what I said.

Juust check what Mr. Joe cossick (President of Saddle Homers USA) said about the same subject.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/geneticsforpigeons/message/26017


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have blue t-pattern and black saddles. No opal there. There are also many ash-reds, ash-yellows, and blues in checks, bars, and t-patterns without opal. Brown and dilute can be in there too. Although opals do seem to be the fad in saddle homers right now.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

My favorite saddle is the blue bar, looks really sharp.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You can look at the Saddle Homer USA albums and find many of them are not opal.
https://picasaweb.google.com/113672292521503354756


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Albannai said:


> In general all saddle homers are opals and ash. FS needs (spread) . These two factors will not go with with FS or TS.
> 
> As george said you can use blue bar hen (coming from Dominant opal parents) because this bird will not carry the opal gene.


Frill stencil does not need spread. The only thing that needs to be present for frill stencil to express is the toy stencil genes. The oriental frills that we associate with frill stencil usually are spread, and have the whole tail laced, while frill stencil without spread will just cause the tail bar to be laces, I think this is called mirror-tail by some, and looks exactly like ribbon tail does on the red-bronze Lebanon birds.

Frill stencil will work on ash-red as well as it does on blue. Oriental frills in the ash-red series do exist (though they are extremely rare). I also see no reason why opal and the stencil genes cannot be combined. The combination might make for interesting new phenotypes.

Similarly, combining opal and ice would not necessarily be a bad thing.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Most of my Satinettes are ash-red. It's interesting to see them change. I think what you are referring to is "spot tail", when a frill stencil is not spread. Some laced birds are also just t-patterns, as they will have spot tails as well.
So are you saying that Satinettes are toy stencil as well? That in order for frill stencil to be expressed, you need toy stencil too? Or would frill stencil just affect the tail/flights without toy stencil present to help with making the pattern white?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Toy stencil is not necessary to enable the frill stencil gene to express. However, the presence of toy stencil (whether the complete complex of Ts1, Ts2 or ts3 or combinations thereof, I don't know) is what produces white bars/cheqs on the patterned Oriental Frills, it may enhance the lacing on the spread pattern; the blondinette I used was not toy stencil, no bronzed F1 or subsequent fs heterozygotes.

Frill stencil produces a white spot on the tail feathers and white 'finch' markings on the primary feather tips, the bars or cheqs are a variable pinkish bronze. Introduction of spread produces variable lacing throughout the body, tail and flights, I believe selection and underlying pattern, will influence this expression.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

indigobob said:


> Toy stencil is not necessary to enable the frill stencil gene to express. However, the presence of toy stencil (whether the complete complex of Ts1, Ts2 or ts3 or combinations thereof, I don't know) is what produces white bars/cheqs on the patterned Oriental Frills, it may enhance the lacing on the spread pattern; the blondinette I used was not toy stencil, no bronzed F1 or subsequent fs heterozygotes.
> 
> Frill stencil produces a white spot on the tail feathers and white 'finch' markings on the primary feather tips, the bars or cheqs are a variable pinkish bronze. Introduction of spread produces variable lacing throughout the body, tail and flights, I believe selection and underlying pattern, will influence this expression.


Thanks for that info. Everyone I have communicated with have told me that the spot tail and finch markings of FS only expressed when in combination with TS. Some may have made such an assumption since there are no breeds (as far as I know) that have only FS without TS.

Where on earth did you find a blondinette WITHOUT toy stencil? Where I am from they only come in TS and FS.

The main points I was trying to make in my post though:
1. Opal and TS can still be combined, and even combined with ice when breeding opal (laced) saddle homers to TS ice pigeons. (Frill stencil is not even a factor here).
2. FS can express with OR without spread.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

rudolph.est said:


> Thanks for that info. Everyone I have communicated with have told me that the spot tail and finch markings of FS only expressed when in combination with TS. Some may have made such an assumption since there are no breeds (as far as I know) that have only FS without TS.
> 
> Where on earth did you find a blondinette WITHOUT toy stencil? Where I am from they only come in TS and FS.
> 
> ...


My black-laced blondinette came from John Gregg, a breeder from Cleator Moor in Cumbria. He also breeds white-barred and white-chequered blondinettes which I would expect to be frill stencil and toy stencil combinations.


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