# 7 tragically orphaned squabs.....



## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Hello folks, 
This is my first post here, but I have been "lurking" about reading posts and gleaning what I can to further my knowledge about proper care of the little ones, that seem to come in droves, needing help in some fashion or another....

I am a Wildlife Rescuer, yes I have a Federal permit, and it appears that my area has either too many Feral pigeons, or too few humans who appreciate the beauty and the tender, nurturing nature of the pigeon. Until I stepped up and asked that I be notified when someone has a pij needing care, instead of automatically euthanizing all pigeons and doves that are brought in to our facility. I felt these birds weren't being given a fair chance to recover and if someone just cared a little more about them, lives would be saved...

Well, me and my big mouth have volunteered ourselves right into tending to a flock (seemingly) of week old squabs that got "evicted" from their nests to make way for the unrelenting surge of "progress", a new Wal-Mart must take hold of what once was a quiet nesting site.... To make a long story short, my kitchen is filled with the cheeping honks of naked, flapping and stomping pigeons who have decided I am the mommy and they are all famished!

I have cared for little ones for years, normally just one or two, briefly during the baby season. I have had limited success with squabs this young and I am hoping this group will fare better and make it to eventual release. Sadly, after only a week, one baby finally expired. No warning... just gone when morning came.

Droppings looked normal, a bit more liquid than I appreciate, but about as I would expect nestlings droppings to look. I observed no respiratory difficulties, no obvious failure to thrive, enormous appetite to the point of my having to pry the little bottomless pits off of my hands after they have consumed half their body weight in "Exact" baby formula mixed as per recommendations of the company for their current age.

I am concerned that another baby is going to fail now, that is why I am seeking opinions and input from others who have more experience and better success than I have to date. How can I be sure the babies aren't overeating or ARE actually not getting enough nutrients in their systems? I don't allow their crops to become any more than about halfway full at a feeding. I am feeding just about every 2 - 3 hours during the daytime hours and they sleep like good babies all night. (Nicely tucked into individual "nests" that are lined up atop a warming shelf at night)

They are all able to see each other, and yet can stretch and flap to their hearts content without kicking each other out of the nest accidentally. They are all kept tidy, I make notes to myself regarding the specifics of each individuals intake, weight and "output". In short I am probably fussing too much over these fellas. I am wondering if I should be providing any additional care or treatments at this point. Should I be medicating them? I don't know what I would be treating at this point as nothing seems wrong with them. Is it normal to just lose the occasional chick while hand rearing a group, like I am?

I should mention that I feed most of the vigorous ones with a hand-held syringe. I understand how to do this without aspirating the chick. I have been pretty lucky to this point at least I HAVEN'T aspirated any yet.... This failing baby I am resorting to tubing it's food into it. Getting it interested enough in it's food to gape is time consuming and frustrating for both of us. Tubing makes feeding so much less of a battle, at least for me... I am also trained and comfortable with tubing, though I prefer to not have to resort to this if I can help it.

Please let me know if I am leaving out something critical that I can endanger these babies by not providing. I am very motivated to see these babies fly away one day.... Many thanks....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi There, 

First off, Welcome to Pigeon Talk. Thank you as well for caring for so many in need mouths at your home right now. Just briefly, it is "normal" to lose some young for various reasons. Especially since these are wild birds and could be carrying a variety of illnesses. Canker is a VERY common but deadly disease in young pigeons. There are others such as E.coli and salmonella that will cause birds to die suddenly as you have described. If you know how to detect canker, perhaps this could be addressed with medications. For bacterial infections, there are drugs but I'm not familiar with dosages for young individuals at different ages. You can treat them for parasitic infections like lice, mites and worms. Canker treatments are important as well or they just won't make it. I'm leary of suggesting courses of antibiotics to wild birds because I don't know if it really helps in the long run. Other members should be by later on to assist you and give more insight.

Thanks again and welcome to the group,


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Please describe Canker to me. I have a basic idea of the illness, but as I said earlier, I am very cautious about presuming anything about these guys for fear of making a tragic, avoidable mistake in caring for them. 

Canker manifests itself as whitish looking "growths" inside the birds mouths and throats. It is a painful, yet treatable illness if caught early on, correct? This condition can also manifest itself throughout the digestive tract, internally and can be the cause for bloody droppings in some instances... is this correct? It is also a contageous illness that can be passed to other birds via shared feeding instruments/feeders/waters or by contact with airborn droplets from an infected sneezing/coughing bird... again is this correct?

Is there an incubation period for this illness, my babies have been here just over one week now and I am intimately familiar with each of the babys. They are all very willing to expose their gullets to anyone who looks like they might have food to offer. You can easily inspect them inside clear down to their toenails it seems. Other than the one chick who is becomming increasingly hard to feed, none seem the slightest bit ill. Even the one who died gave no indication it was in trouble... It plexes me that I might have missed some critical clue. I am amazed at how complex, caring for baby pigeons can be. It is definately not for someone who isn't willing to dedicate themselves to the responsibility is it?

It makes me think back on raising my own children, and I had thought I had seen the last of those days.... Ha!

Thank You for responding so quickly to my questions, I really appreciate your willingness to offer insight.....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Again, 

Well, your information on canker seems to be very accurate. I'm not really sure about the incubation times of the virus in pigeons. I'm thinking that since a young bird hasn't developed a proper immune system, you might not see any growths in the mouth before they succomb. The virus might kill the bird before any actual lessions show up in the throat. I'm not too sure about this though. The mortality rate in young pigeons is fairly high however due to various diseases in the wild. You are right, it's not an easy job for even the experienced folks. I myself am not a rehabilitator but there are quite a few on the board. Some of the others will be along shortly to give you more precise answers. 

Keep up the selfless work though, you're doing a great job by the sounds of it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You are doing a great job with the babies. Unfortunately fatalities in very yound hand raised babies is common and most of the time we don't have a diagnosis.
Some might be carrying diseases passed down from their parents.
You are right about the canker. 
Unless you clearly see the white/yellowish smelly lesions of canker, the only other way to diagnose it is with swabs.
Canker is a parasite-protozoan Trichomonas gallinae-that lives in the mouth, sinuses, throat, esophagus and other organs. The mortality is high if not cought early.
The transmission is from parent to offspring via feedings, sharing water and food is another mode of transmission.
The treatment is Metronidazol, preffered by my vet, Spartix (Carnidazole) and several other ...zoles.
I just had a very advanced case of canker in a pigeon and thouroughly discussed this disease with my vet. Treating a bird without having a diagnosis is not recommended, that goes for all diseases.
The reason is, too many antibiotics, except for not being good for the bird (most meds are toxic to liver and/or kidneys) especially in young. Also they might cause resistance for many bacteria and parasites. The risk is in a few years metronidazole, Baytril and other antibiotics commonly used just won't work anymore.

Now, back to your babies.
The poor little one who didn't make it, might have had something transmitted from the parents.
Other things that might happen is sour crop, crop stasis , nutritional deficiencies, those are the most common.

Could you tell us what you are feeding them and how much?
Also a little bit of sunlight every day will help them metabolize vit D which is important in growing. A UV lamp would also do. Just make sure they don't get overheated.
Probiotics are important and if you could add enzymes to their feedings that would help. If you don't have probiotics, plain yogurt is a good alternative. I think it is 2cc in 20cc's of food once a day.

You are doing great, please keep us updated and feel free to ask any questions you might have.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello, and welcome to pigeons.com.

If you look in the Pigeon Daily Pigeon Resources forum you will find a chart that maps the day to day development of a squab. This should enable you to establish the exact age and whether they are developing normally. 

Can I recommend that instead of feeding directly from a syringe or tube you use the “syringe and balloon method”.? This involves slicing the thin tip off a syringe (a 20ml should be fine for a 2 week old squab), filling the syringe with formula and taping something over the mouth of the syringe such as a piece of cloth, stretch bandage or a piece cut out of a balloon. .

You cut a cross (X) in the fabric and steer the pigeon’s beak into the hole. (I will bump up a post titled “there will be tears” which shows a photo of this in use on page 2 of the thread). The squab will start to gobble the food as you depress the plunger gently to pump more food in, mimicking the way the parent feeds his squab.. Make the Kaytee a bit thinner than recommended as it thickens in the crop. Feed until the crop is noticeably inflated but not hard. Like a ¾ hot water bottle. I think that for a 2 week old squab that would be 30ml per feed, 3 times a day going up to 40ml per feed when they are 4 weeks old. 

Naked baby pigeons have two dots on their shoulder area. When these start to turn white they have had enough to eat.

It would be a good idea to weigh the babies regularly to ensure they are thriving. You must also ensure that the crop empties completely every 24 hours.

Canker isn’t a virus, it is a protozoa that lives for a very limited time outside its host. It is passed through direct oral contact (as in crop feeding) or when a pigeon with canker picks up a seed and drops it to have it immediately eaten by another pigeon. Feeding instruments passed from mouth to mouth can spread it, but not droplets or sneezes. It takes 6 days at least to develop from the point of infection. There would normally be visible signs of canker in the form of cheesy growths in the mouth or as a lump in the neck , navel area or cloaca. 

If one of the babies seems sickly then please separate it from the others, keep them all warm and sheltered from drafts.

I am so sorry that you lost one little one. This happened when my own rescue pigeons were fostering a thriving baby, I found his sudden unexplained death devastating.

Hope this helps.

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Canker isn’t a virus, it is a protozoa that lives for a very limited time outside its host.
> Cynthia



Thanks Cynthia for correcting me. I knew it wasn't a virus but I was typing fast at work (in between dealing with something else). I just used the incorrect term for the affliction. 

Avianrescue, You've just been given some excellent advice from some of the experienced rahabbers on the list. I think you're doing a splendid job though and seem to be very diligent in your observations. Thanks for helping these 7 orphaned babies.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Several methods have been mentioned. I for one only use chick starter that has been slightly heated then stired to a soupy mix. Then use a 60cc catheter syringe. .It has a extended end on it that enables one to go down the throat past the air way. and pump the mix directly into the crop. After mixing the mix and loadind the syringes. you can feed 7 babys in less then a min, Chick starter is lightly medicated and helps the young bird fight off sickness. And is very good for the young bird to grow by. I was introduced to this method back in about 1988 and it has worked very well. And all this can be bought localy in most towns with ordering The birds go on to eating and drinking with easy times. And the only thing Is some birds have to forget your not its parent. they are very tame.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry, Brad, I wasn't intentionally correcting you on what the organism is called (I am one of those types the first word that comes to hand and I hate it when people correct me  ). It was the mode of transmission that I was really focusing on, whether canker could be spread by droplets from something like a sneeze.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Squab,

Three things - 

What are you feeding them? What are the ingredients? (and how often in the day do you make it fresh? are you steralizeing the syringe between times?) 

What do their poops look like in terms of color and consistancy?

Lastly, plesase consider to skip trying to use a Syringe for feeding Columbiformes, especially any who are interested in eating, who are wishing to be fed. These Birds will never gape, their method is to insert their beak into the throat of their parents, who will being up food for them form their crops for them.

So, try this instead -

Take a 5 inch square piece of Saran-Wrap...
If you are right handed, moisten with a little water the thmub and index finger of your left hand and make a small "O" with your index finger so it's tip is at the root of your thumb...and put the Saran-Wrap over that so that it has a little pocket in it, letting your other fingers make a loose "C" shape that keeps them out of the way...

So, making the the "O", with the Saran-Wrap on it with a little well or cup, or pocket so that little pocket is about the width and depth of the last joint of one's little finger. The moisture will help the Saran-Wrap adhere.

Fill this pocket useing a tea spoon, with the food.
The Baby, Squabling or Fledgleing Pigeon may like to have their beak directed to this little pocket a few times by gently grasping their beak tip and pokeing it into the food filled pocket, for them to learn that it is now the method. They will take to it with unbridled enthusiasms very readily. If you think they are enthusiastic now, just wait...

As they individually feed in this little pocket, use the finger tips of your right hand to gently massage the underside of the poclet hanging in the littl "O" your left index finger makes to hold the pocket, massage the food into their soft beak.

Change the Saran-Wrap piece as needed, or when moveing on to the next Bird.

One should enjoy excellent success by this method, and, the Birds like it very much.

Hold semi-high, like their crop's hight or a little higher, tilting it to them, and pump it up and down gently as their parents would have...

Forget the syringe...and if ever resorting to one, make sure it has a very soft, blunted end tube on it, you can puncture their crops or damage them in their enthusiasms or wiggleings...but regardless, it is not necessary and or can fill them much too fast, also...

Phil
el ve


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

All of this info is being very avidly processed, I appreciate everyone's willingness to share both their time and knowledge with those of us with endless questions. The correction of my understanding of Canker helps me to better understand this problem and will come in handy for any future cases I may have to deal with.

I am fairly certain that I am not facing Canker with my failing chick. This mornings observations of the little guy are as follows. Very eager to be fed as soon as my voice is heard. (For simplicity's sake let's just refer to the ill chick as a "he") He stands on tip toes and flaps as hard as he can. Still it seems as if he's just not as strong, physically, as he should be. He has several thoughfully placed tiny, brown/clear droppings from overnight on the outside of his "nest". Again seemingly normal behavior. His crop is almost completely flaccid, nothing hard remaining in the lowest pockets just above the keel. His keel is quite sharp yet and his little ribs seem to have only the slightest bit of padding on them.
His breathing is still via mouth, his nostrils seem to be plugged but he will blow a clear mucousy "snot" bubble when he "searches" for food between my fingers. For this reason I am opting to tube feed rather than try to feed from a baby nipple that has been split down the center. ( I will try to photograph my feeding set-up and post it here shortly ) Syringe feeding this baby is not an option at this time as he gets panicky and will struggle unexpectedly during the process. I am determined not to drown any babies if I can help it...
I am feeding the following at this time... Exact baby bird formula with about a 1/4 cup of our facilitys own blended formula mixed in. Our facility advocates feeding pigeon/dove chicks a blended mixture consisting of plain yogurt, Gerber (or like brand) of creamed infant Turkey or Chicken dinner, the hardboiled yolk of an egg, 600mg Calcium Carbonate, 100mg Vit C and a spot of Cod Liver oil. The above is blended together until creamy using Osmolite and Ringers as needed to make the end result the consistancy of almost liquid pudding. 

As chicks mature the mix can be made with less liquid and some wild bird seed mixed in little by little as they learn to pick up and consume solid food and water. Any input on what we feed is also welcome...

Back to the chick, he was tube fed and seems satisfied after his crop was filled just over halfway. He settles right down to nap in his nest... still breathing thru his mouth. I can discern no bubbling or aspirated chest sounds via stethascope. The white spots that were mentioned are present on the wings. * I didn't know about those thank you very much btw  *

Unfortunately I must tend to things at work for the moment but I will post this for now and will check back soon for input.... Thanks in advance


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Squab,


Canker, so far as I know, is cause by infections or infestations of the otherwise soil habitating, free roving, flagillate protozoan Tricomona, the illness itself being sometimes called tricomoniasis...

Generally, more than generally, if a Pigeon has it, their poops will have a chalky 'yellowish' thin component instead of the substantial white component. The chalky yellow will saturate or soak into the cage bottom towell or paper towels or whatever instead of being solid.

This is the impirical poop-related indicator.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

AvianRescue, 


Your combination of Kaytee and the other ingredients you're adding to it sound PERFECT. I don't see how in any way you could improve upon the formula you're mixing. You've obviously done your homework


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Avian Rescue,

Some squabs are born with Salmonellosis, they are hungry but don't thrive. They develop enteritis and become depressed , emaciated and dehydrated and most die if they do not receive treatment. The treatment is a course Baytril...unfortunately that affects healthy bone development in squabs initially but it saves their lives. I am told that they catch up eventually with the development.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Squab, 


Your Bird(s) are possibly sick with an illness, possibly reacting badly to your feeding method and formula...and...in addition...your food formula is either starving them to death or making them sick in addition to any underlieing illness they may have.

No young Bird should be breathing through an open beak unless it is overheated...in fact, try and allow them an option as for elcting the degree of warmth they like. if they are feathered, they may not need much, but they sound starved, so they will need more, but...let them decide how much, let them have room to get away from or off of the heating pad or whatever you are useing for their warmth. Likely, unless you are in a very cold clime, they do not need any at this point except for being malnourished to allow them the option of warmth they can choose.

I do not know what is in the brand name product you mention, but forget it for these little ones. If it is for Ducks and so on, skip it for Columbiformes.

Pigeons are Seed eaters and are not equipped to process Animal proteans or caseins or dairy.

Do this - 

In a quart sized sausepan...put in say a cup of smallish fresh wholesome Canary Seed or regular Wild Bird Seed...add maybe 1/2 cup of clean non-tap Water like from a Water Store or something and do not use already on the shelf bottled Water...heat gently...

Add some regular Gerbers or similar instant people-baby Cereal last of all, to thicken so it is like a meadium thick soup. Add some teapsoon or two of powdered 'Super Greens or similar that you can get at a healthfood store...add a little teaspoon or so of FRESH Olive Oil ( a new bottle and keep it out of sunlight and away from heat thereafter)...add some Crushed Oyster Shell Grit, say two good TABLEspoons or so...stirring of course while gently warming...

You may also add a teaspoon or so of powdered Purple Dulce or other powdered Sea Weed.

They should soon be making luscious firm wholesome poops at least the size of a large Blueberry, and the poops should be white solid paste curled in with dark greenish-brown...the poops should be around twenty or thirty a day or so, more or less, maybe more...and should not be sticky or liquidy and will have no odor worth mentioning. The babys themselves, if you stick your nose into their feathers, should smell like fresh, wholesome grain...if they do not, something is not right with the regimin, or with them.

The mucous at their nostrils may be from an illnes, or may be a bad reaction ro dairy. Pigeons are NOT lactose tolerant, and mucous problems are a likely reaction...

Phil
el ve


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Squab,
> 
> 
> ... possibly reacting badly to your feeding method and formula...and...in addition...your food formula is either starving them to death or making them sick in addition to any underlieing illness they may have.
> ...


Hi Elve, 


I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree here, Avianrescue's diet is nearly as good as it can be next to the real pigeon's milk. Your other imput and advice are good but this is not correct. Kaytee is intended for psitticine species granted, but it has worked marvelously as well for pigeons with a few modifications as have been done but Avianrescue. I don't like to interject others opinions but in this case, you are a little off base.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dear AvianResque, 


I too am brand new here, making my first post last night.

Excuse me please, in my previous posts above, for my salutation of "Hi Squab", since, being unfamiliar with the format, I saw the word "squab" top left of your post, and thought that was your username, and I thought that AvianRescue was the thread catagory...now, I see that I too am "squab"...so, one squab to another I suppose...

Please, take seriously my mention of feeding method and feeding formula...

Many non Columbiforme Veterinarians give feeding and formula advise which is way Way WAY off, or speak theoretically from info tranfered from Chickens or Precocial Birds or something and have never themselves hand raised a healthy baby Pigeon to know what the hell they are talking about...

Pigeons are very easy Birds, very willing, very communicative, very sweet little Creatures. It takes time and experience and hard won lessons sometimes to hit on the overall methods and manner for their care and feeding.

Illness or disease of course complicates our already challenging learning curves...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Dear AvianResque,
> 
> 
> Please, take seriously my mention of feeding method and feeding formula...
> ...



You've already stated you are a "newbie' here. I could enlist the recommendations of quite a few people on this board who would endorse Kaytee Exact formala. I really don't wish to argue the point with you but PLEASE, don't make claims to other people who are also learning things, and of which you haven't got the substantiated proof of. I can show you two perfectly healthy, if not exuberant young raised on Kaytee formula.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


I am not familiar with the product, hence, I had asked what AvianRescue was feeding them. 

I am not looking for contention here or contention of opinions or hearsay.

AvianRescue is having problems, if they wish to eliminate much of those problems, doing as I suggested will at least respect what these Birds should be eating at this age, and, how they would like TO be fed.

But anyway, the Crop Milk is likely not an issue for Birds having Feathers already anyway, or, it need not be, or, no harm IF it is not...and likely would not be an issue worth worrying about if the babys were four days old for that matter, they will thrive and be vivid and healthy without some way different anyway of substitute Crop Milk.

...and substitue Crop Milk, especially or animal protean based, will have anything in it which they could not get better from wholesome seed and small additions of vegan type suppliments. Whatever Antibodies and initial Seed derived Fats and Proteans the Babys did get from their Parent's Crop Milk, they already got before being taken over be careing humans. 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am inclined to agree that Kaytee Exact can't be the ideal food for baby pigeons because it wasn't created as a crop milk replacement diet. However, it is the best ready made formula available which is why I use it and recommend it.

I am interested in hearing about anything else that works. After all, our ultimate goal is to raise healthy well developed pigeons.

Phil, do you have experience of raising hatchlings from day one? If so, what success rate have you had?

The reason we use Kaytee Exact is because it has enzymes in it which baby pigeons need for digestion in their first days of life.

Cynthia


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I may be off base. But Katte startedserving hook bill feeding formula . Young pigeons from 1day to the 4th to 5th day are basicly on pigeon milk. Then moved over to a grain feed. or pellets. owner choice. So the first few days is the critical point. The old days research showed. boiled egg whites wasa close to pigeon milk that you could get. Then after 4 5 days feed supplement was needed. fro the bird to grow right. Many things are tried. Some people even use a straw with soaked feed and feed that way. With several birds And the sake of time. cathter syringe gets the job done fast. crop size set how much is pushed to feed. BUT What ever a person does that aids raiseing a young bird to asstit its growth and life. And gets the job done it works. And we all learn as we go. prefured method is that. my method works 100% for me. never had a loss and have fed out about fifty birds. but thats me We can only offer advice. And I have read several Ideas here on this thread. The old saying if it works fine. holds true. I just hope the young birds left start thriving and perhaps as a group we all assisted the need Keep us posted how the birds make it. And thanks for coming to pigeons .com


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad,


Ohhhhh...golly, please forgive me if I was comeong off gruff or anything, I am not an early riser and it takes me a while to wake up sometimes.

But anyway, some little overview maybe...

KayTee Exact...

Open the lid of a new can of it...take a deep smell...

Smells kinda like usual dry Cat or Dog food, doesn't it?

Know why? It has rancid fats in it.

Rancid fats interfere with the assimilation OF the vitimines and minerals it contains.

If one wants, one may add appropriate drops of Avian Vitamines to a self made formula...and come out just-as-good or better in fact, than the KayTee Exact.

One may dissolve a good grade of dailydose People vitimines in a small glass of water and use a little of that every day for the Baby's food as a suppliment. If one wants.

Vivid thriveing Babys may be raised with no Vitamine additions as such. They can get everything they need from wholesome foods mixed together for them.

Many rescuers err on the side of overdoseing Babys with Vitamines anyway.



What advantage can we decide the KayTee has going for itself? What advantages over real solid wholesome foods that are as close as we can get to what Momma and Poppa would have been feeding them?

The rancidity?

The no fiber?

The powder instead of Seeds and Grit?



What do these Babys get fed by their parents? And what are they fed by the they are already feathered even? KayTee? The Parents open a can and spoon it out for them to stirr in some water to put it in there with a syringe? Is that how it works? Lol...of course not...

I am a newby on your list, not a newby to raising orphan Pigeons...so please, do not be so testy and snipy and calculatedly interpolative with me so soon off the bat, I am very sincere with all this, and I am a very successful Baby Raiser.

Meanwhile, poor AvianRescue is suffering and you have a whole lot of nada to offer, so...lighten up!

If you want, go ahead and explain WHY KT is better than seed and grit and suppliments for Feathered Babys?

Lets go over that a few times maybe...

Otherwise, I am not looking for contention, and if you are, lets instead try and focus on the well being of our charges, of these various Baby Pigeons we all are wishing to know more about how to feed, how to care for and what to feed.

Please?

Thanks, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi AvianRescue and All,

I would just like to thank you again for helping these much in need pigeons. As Cynthia mentioned, this is what is important. However, I would like to apologize for the dissention in your thread. I'm not saying I'm right or better than anyone else. I'm also not suggesting that Kaytee is the PERFECT formula for baby/juvenile pigeons. What I AM saying is that your diet is perfectly fine and can give wonderful results. There are others here that are looking for the IDEAL synthesized formula but unfortunately, it doesn't exist yet. In situations such as yours, time is of the essence and everything from expenses, time management and practicality have to be considered. One cannot be expected to replicate a millenium old formula that pigeons will always have the patent on. I also like to improve upon things and welcome others imput, but I don't think it's constructive to contradict the source of something that works and works just fine. (with some modifications)


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

The product I am using is not an animal based mixture. The main ingredient is ground corn, then wheat and soy etc. The only added dairy is plain yogurt ( with the intention of adding the essential probios to the chicks diet ) The baby food is a poultry base of course. 
Also there is only one chick failing currently. It is in a very nicely temperate area and does not appear to be suffering from heat or chill. It is emaciated, I agree. I do have it seperate from the others and nothing but the highest regard is given toward maintaining the chicks health. Everything is steralized every time the chick is fed or handled. I schooled at U.C.Davis years ago with the intention of completing an education aspiring toward a Veterinary occupation oneday. Sadly I chose to raise my children and keep my home for my family instead of finishing my education...
My career at this time is tending to animals, wild and domestic. Thank you for your opinion, but i am hesitant to immediately agree with your recommendation at this time regarding my feeding methods. I think the problem lies elsewhere personally. I am not going to disregard your post, instead I am going to continue to remain open to input and if what I am doing proves to be wrong, I will give your suggestion a shot.... Essentially I agree your diet can't harm a Columbiforme to the best of my knowledge.

Kaytee Exact hand feeding formula for birds information taken from Kaytee website....

Kaytee Exact Handfeeding Formula 

Kaytee Exact Hand-Feeding Formula is a nutritious diet for hand-feeding baby birds. Exact Hand-Feeding Formula is made through a special process which produces an instant formula with low bacteria levels. Exact's high nutrition formula helps baby birds grow faster, wean earlier and develop better, brighter plumage than similar birds fed with homemade formulas.


Ingredients:
Ground Corn, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Oat Groats, Ground Wheat, Wheat Middlings, Corn Oil, Dried Whole Egg, Soy Protein Isolate, Dried Beet Pulp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, Wheat Germ Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Corn Sugar, Vitamin A Supplement, Salt, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Propionic Acid (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Ferrous Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Manganous Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Oxide, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of vitamin D3), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Dried A. oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Extract, Beta-Carotene, Dried Bacillus coagulans Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Whey, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite. 

Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude Protein (minimum) 22 
Moisture (maximum) 10 
Crude Fat (minimum) 9 
Crude Fiber (maximum) 5 

I hope this helps you form a better opinion of what I consider a very good product for emergency baby bird care......


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cryo51,

I had never heard of KayTee Exact untill a few weeks ago when it was recommended to me for some Baby Humming Birds.

I did not trust it oweing to it's rancid odor.

Maybe it does have some useful enzymes in it, in which case, why not use it as an addition TO a wholesome diet of other things?

Too, dear AvianRescue was NOT feeding one day old hatchlings, but what sounds like two or three week old Birds...Birds which long since should have been eating, being fed, Seeds and Grit and other things mixed in..fed warm food and not by syringe, either.

The Poops can tell us much about how a Bird is doing...we all need to learn as much as possible about that, since it is a everpresent and handy indicator of how they are processing their food.


I was in to all this in a big way in the very early 1980s, but in a vacuum wioth no pals or comrades or Vets who knew anything aboud Pigeons...and in a very occasional way since...now, I am getting back into it.

I did have many occasions of recieving very tender skin-and downtuft Pigeon Babys, whom I fed delicately useing a small size soft baby Bottle Nipple ( not yet having iunvented the Saran-Wrap 'well' method which is much much better in many ways) with no looses I can recall. The only losses I do recall occurred from youngsters who had severe Canker and who were already almost unconscious and emaciated, or severe injuries from crushing Dog bites or Cat Bites. Overall, no matter what was ailing them I lost maybe five percent of all bring-ins (maybe five hundred Birds over six years, 1979 - 1985 ) no matter their age or condition on arrival.

I was self taught from watching the Wild Birds and from some little ( usually bad) info I could get from (non Columbiforme) Vets and some little reading at the Library of useless Books about oyther species, and overall I was VERY lucky I did not loose more, especially of the tenderest Babys.

For the very young, I recall I used to warm a little very thin Oatmeal with fine some Seed Meal I would grind up together from Birdseed iand Quaker Oats in a clean little Coffee Grinder...I would add some Gerber or similar instant people-baby Cereal...a little bit of powdered Kekp or Seaweed, and mix in some stuff I bought in a tube called 'Nutrical' that was a brownish goo...mixed all that up in a little Saucepan with some clean pure Water, and fed it to the very youngest of Babys. I do not recall loosing any. I did not know about Pigeon Milk then and I did not give them any Dairy.

Hatchlngs of course are the most delicate, tender and frail in every way.

Pigeon Babys who have their Feathers already are much hardier of course!

But some of what I seem to be gathering here, is that some of us have Babys of two or three weeks of age, who need to be getting fed Seeds and Grit instead of canned powder stuff.

Small fresh wholesome Seeds, Oyster Shell Grit, mixed with some clean pure Water in a little pan on the stove, warmed...to which is added some people-baby instant Cereal for making it a little less watery...some dab of powdered Greens or Super Greens...a little Olive Oil that also is fresh...a little regular Oat Meal or Corn Meal in there even...and they will love it, they will glow, they will smell fgood, and they will be happy...and they will make many wholesome happy firm, non sticky, good smelling white-and-browngreen poops.

Please consider to try the 'Saran Wrap' being made into a little 'well' in the curled index finger of one's hand...as I above mentioned in a seperate post. It works very well as for how they like TO be fed. It is easy and not especially messy.

Pigeons need for their Crops to be grinding on Seeds, at least once they are a week or so old anyway, they need for that to be going on...they need to be making solid white-and-green-brown poops the size of Blueberries or larger and many many many of them, too...if too much fiber is in the poops, they are not getting enough Grit. They get minerals from the Grit also...if they are healthy, they should soon be little furnaces all on their own from their own body heat...and, they should be enthusiastic squeakers who love being fed and seek it often. So, feed them often! Feel their crops to see if it is firmly-sluchy, if too firm, they need a drink. If nothing is there feed them! Fill them up! But not too full...learn by experience, feel their proud Crops...they eat, the nap, they squeak and they poop...that is what they do.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AvianResue,

The formula you are feeding them sounds good to me. I have one hand raised baby fed only Exact formula, I didn't know any better then.
She developed fine only is a bit smaller than a normal pigeon.

In the meantime I learned that probiotics, enzymes and some vitamins are also necessary, as is a vairiety of food.
The baby cereal and yogurt is a good choise to add to the formula, don't overdo it with the yogurt though.

One thing I want to advice you, though, do not give vitamin A (fish oil) daily. High quantities of vitamin A is toxic to birds and mammals. The formula might already have some vit A in it. Cod liver oil is supposed to be given once a month.
Vit C and B's are good, they are water soluble and the excess it eliminated from the body. The fat soluble vitamins, like A and E, are stored and cause toxicity if given in high dosed.

Other than that you are doing great.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi PigeonPal2002,


AvianRescue mentioned womewhere, the overnight poops being few, and being liquid broan syrup like, or at least that is what I thouhgt I recalled them saying.

QWell fed feldgeling Babys should make many large, solid, well difined 'snake-coiled' of White and Green-Brown, not sticky, not smelly, not liquidy, not syrupy, not blobby poops in an overnight. 

Now, does that sound to you like these Baby Pigeons are getting enough Seeds and Grit?

Or getting too much canned powder intended for other species anyway?

Whatcha think?

(Insert happyface, upbeat, twinkle-eye Avitar here, and, the wink-thing too...)

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvianRescue, 


Forgive me if I had seemed gruff or anything...in real life this conversation would be sparkley and happy...!

My mood maybe does not come through well in these short missives...sorry...


Now, a Baby Pigeon is not a Chicken.

If you do not believe me, please find someone whom you could respect and ask them?

The dietary considerations for a young Pigeon are not the same as those of s precocial Chicken.

Ask yourself what is in the KD which could not be better made from scratch without the Poultry derived ingredients? And or ask youself if it is a good thing, that it smells rancid from rancid Wheat Germ oil and "E" oil or whatever else in there that can become or is rencid? Ask yourself why that is better than say grinding up your own Flax Seeds and sonme other Seeds for making food for the Babys?

Unless your Pigeon is less than four or five days old, you need not worry about trying to substitute for Pigeon Milk, and, as kindly mentioned by Re Lee, some boiled Egg White may be used for occasions in which it is a concern.

So, AvianRescuer, please remind me then, what do the afflicted Baby's Poops look like?

How many a-day and how large and what color and what consistancy and so on, are they?

Too, the Bird may be ill, in addition to whatever dietary factors are at play...

However did anyone ever raise vivid, healthy, large, glowing,m good smelling, great healthy non-odorous poop making, of Pigeon Babys before KT?

Was it simply not possible according to current thinking?

Do the KT raised babys make good poops? Do they grow up to be large?

Maybe consider "LeFeber's NUTRISTART" as a possibility...to add TO a wholesome home-made mix of Ground or other Seeds and other ingredients...at least it does not smell rancid...

But overall, again, if you can get over being offended by my initial foray having somehow sounded less diplomatic than it should have, I mean, I am giving you stuff that took me a long time TO learn and it is getting the stink-face for a reception! Jeeeeze,m what is your experience then? How many hundreds of Babys have you raised on KT? Or, please, think..."think" evaluate freshly, ask yourself, Do these Birds NOT eat Seeds? And Grit? And if I make sure to give them no Seeds and Grit, but instead, some canned powder in-a-syringe, shall they not prosper?

They may live in spite of you, but they shall not flourish anywhere near what they could have otherwise...or grow well, or grow large and vivid...nor smell good...or make endless firm solid healthy poops...

Or, whatever...

I guess these inbternet lists see lots of annoying people breeze through...maybe I am just breezing through...

Sorry,



Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Welcome Phil,

It is always great to get new members, especially knowledgeable ones.....you sound like you have a lot to offer. However...if you reread many of your posts, you may realize that along with alot of useful information, you have also been inserting some comments that sound condescending and/or sarcastic.
Many times, especially in a format like this, "how" you say something can be just as important as "what" you are saying. I know some people would disagree with this, but it really can make the difference between having a lively, informative exchange of information as opposed to an unpleasant argumentative exchange.
Thank you for all the information you have offered us from your past experiences...hopefully you will be able to learn a thing or two from our members also.

Linda


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Please .. no Kaytee Exact or any similar product for hummingbirds .. be they babies or adults! Most of us would not and do not have appropriate "food" for hummingbirds on hand but can "make do" for a short time .. just not with hookbill/granivore food. Do the research.

Also, please everyone, have a look here for the MacMilk diet here on pigeons.com for doves/pigeons as well as the MacDiet information for passerines .. tons of very good information contained in these diets. Also see http://www.starlingtalk.com for an easy to make and use dog food based diet appropriate for starlings and sparrows.

I'll do better tomorrow with information and references, but still struggling to catch up today.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Linda,


Thank you...!


Sorry...

Mia Culpa...

Best wishes, 

Phil


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


Thank you...quite so!

I was brought two (one to two day old) hatchling Hummers, of a seemingly small species to boot, a few weeks ago.

Several bird vets in town here (who know squat about anything other than their rote padded coporate schtick bills for Parrots and Macaws and so on and were into the big dough of bored rich people's pets) recomended the usual "Sugar and Water"...and some recommended the "KT-Exact" and I bought some and elected NOT to use it.

One Hummer I lost on day two from I think starvation from the diameter of the feeding tube being in fact too small to pass protean solids of yet a different formula I was given that they did not likje at all but put up with (watch the poops allways!) which formula I had to I strain in cloth for it to pass through it...(as in, "where's the poops, anyway...well, there were almost none! Only little dabs of syrup...sound familiar???)

The other, younger sibling I kept going for about two weeks more with my own guessed of made-up formula, and the surviveing one :OVED it and became an enthusiastic eater and gaper and little wiggler...and I got a little larger feed tube diameter, untill a vet and a few other so called wild life rehabbers told me to change it to somethintg else (dairy derived protean powders like 'low iron similac' and sugar and fish flakes) which had been the original one they HATED...which I did and lost him then two days after. He hated it form the get-go and I should have respected that.

When I had him on my own made up formula, he thrived, was growing and standing and seemed vivid and content and had palpably contented naps...when I switched formula he did not like it and was not gaping after the first or second round of it, seemed to slowly wilt and was no longer "palpably' enthused for feed times in the same way as before, nor in naps...so...and I am still kicking myself for listening to those damned corporate greedy 'parrot' vets or others. 

I was way way overtired and run down already before I got them or I might have had a clearer head for it and not loused it up...so...

Maybe that is still effecting me more than I realized...

Hearing about feedin baby Pigeons "Yogurt and Poultry" maybe kinda twanged a nerve there...

Trying to learn more about Hummers...led me to try the internet for learning more about Pigeons...so led me here.


Phil
el ve


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi AvianRescue,
> 
> 
> Forgive me if I had seemed gruff or anything...in real life this conversation would be sparkley and happy...!
> ...


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Brad...*



Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi AvianRescue and All,
> 
> I would just like to thank you again for helping these much in need pigeons. As Cynthia mentioned, this is what is important. However, I would like to apologize for the dissention in your thread. I'm not saying I'm right or better than anyone else. I'm also not suggesting that Kaytee is the PERFECT formula for baby/juvenile pigeons. What I AM saying is that your diet is perfectly fine and can give wonderful results.
> 
> ...




The tender age of these chicks is really the most critical part of their lives. Botching something at this time can affect the quality of life the bird can look forward to. If nothing else, communicating with people who have the ability to empathize with critters as well, helps me feel more confident in what I am attempting to do. My children and my husband all think that I am a little nuts to put out the amout of effort these chicks demand from me. If I was not willing to do this for them, they would certainly not have made it this long. It is the center's policy to disregard newly hatched "common" birds. They provide nothing more than minimal care knowing the chances of success aren't all that good in the first place.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi AvianRescue, 

I'd like to clarify here, and state again in the forum that I am NOT a rehabilitor of pigeons or any other birds. My pigeon experience and knowlege however goes back many, many years having pigeons as pets. My goal in the forum is to educate, help, learn and moderate. 

In regards to the Kaytee formula, I recommend it and endorse it because I know it works. I know there are other formulas available, some better some worse. When new, inexperienced members join and read these threads, it's best that they get the facts when possible. During an emergency, it would be a shame if they were afraid to use Kaytee formula because of negative feedback they read here and it was all that was available to them .

I have two young pigeons who were hand raised on it by another member of this board. They are now 10 months old and absolutely vibrant. She made the necessary adjustments like you did to modify the formula to a proper consistency and added a few other key ingredients. After the babies were about 2 weeks old, we came up with an idea to supplement the kaytee formula. I had purchased pigeon pellets and these were ground up into a fine powder and added to the kaytee formula a little at first, then the ground pellets gradually became the sole source of food until weaning onto whole seeds took place. The pellets are essentially ground up and reformed grains to begin with and have vitamins added. So by grinding them up further, it was easily digested by the young pigeons and also able to pass through a feeding tube. There was no need for grit at this time as well. The young pigeons ended up being fed this mixture for a long time (well past a month old) because they were slow to start eating a seed diet. They had wonderful, perfectly formed poops on the hand feeding of both the kaytee and the ground pellets. Maybe you or others can benefit from this suggestion because it really worked well for my pigeons.


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

I think that is a wonderful idea and I will absolutely try it as soon as they are a bit older. That is a very good sounding way to begin weaning the chicks and familiarize them with a different tasting food. 
At this point they are still learning that my moving hand and fingers are a source of great excitement. They can become absolutely giddy when I reach for them. Cutest little buggars, I swear... It floors me that people poison these guys and have no capacity to try and understand them. 

On a sad note, the ill pigeon has finally died. It grew less and less enthusiastic as the afternoon past. It instead of standing and flapping for my attention, chose to rest quietly watching my every move. It's droppings became very tiny and very solid brown/green squiggle afloat in a large amount of clear bubbly liquid, yet the entire mass is still the consistancy of a blob of frog eggs. The little bird snuggled in my lap with it's eyes closed and simply took one big breath, all of it's little pins stood outright like a porcupine and it died. I didn't realize it was gone for a few moments until it's eyes opened halfway and it became very limp... Poor little guy... I sure wish I could have learned what was wrong... I am not considering a necropsy, this is going to have to be chalked up as an, "I tried to fix it" case... The remaining birds are still bright, alert and appear content for the night. I hope they all are alive in the morning...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I'm very sorry your little patient didn't make it Your description of the poop was very visual however and perhaps someone will be able to make something from that description. It's so hard to watch death occur right in front of your eyes.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad, 


Makes sense...

I was feeling exhasperated likely from fatigue, and felt un-necessarily vexed with what seemed a sort of closed mindedness or knee-jerk reaction against anything but "KT" and...trying to be constructive but feeling put down for it...what seemed like little or no willingness to examine nutrition in any other terms...and, me writing in haste, in stolen moments from my work, and being way overtired anyway, found then I could not edit what had been hastily writ once posted in haste...or I would have changed the awkward posting...trying to write in this tiny window and all...typos...oh well...

Anyway, I think this site is a Godsend and a joy, I have been brousing and printing out things here for my files...things that are wonderful to have found. All these years and it was so hard to find out anything. No one knew anything here, no one ever did any of this, none of the aVets knew much, no one knew what they ate or at what age or how to feed them but for syringes, which I never have used...

I was not offended but exhasperated at being found offensive!
...when (far as I knew, ) I was ("just") initially trying to share what I felt was a valuable recipe for youngster feeds...for someone who did not seem to know what or how to feed them...I was trying to be helpful...and having it get the ice berg chill from rejection...kinda put me off...so...all is well now maybe...or well enough.

See, also, what I was getting, was that you (or rather AvianRescue) were feeding them only the KT and Dairy...and getting syrup-dabs of poo and wondeing why the Bird was not doing well...and did not believe in Seeds or Grit or Ground Seeds for the still very young of more than a week old Babys...no graduated changes of food...just KT and Dairy untill they fly away or something...no willingness to consider lactose or 'meat' protean intolerance even of an individual Bird, let alone, for Columbiformes generally with an open mind as for individuals of the kind...so I was feeling kind of cold shouldered there...snubbed...at the Bird's expense for ego stuff or rote hearsay habits from vet's advises or something with no discovery for one's self going on. make sense?

It should not be acceptable to loose Birds and not know "why"...we best learn "why"...think hard on what our practices are...rethink them...

That may take re-examining old habits or old rotes...

Things were not clear here and there...there were ambiguities...

So...

You have your hands full there certainly...!

I have sometimes had a dozen baby Pigeons at one time, and I will say that was quite a handfull for me. I am on my own most of the time as for whatever Bird work I may do. Twenty Baby Sparrows are maybe easier at a young age anyway, since they just gape like so many little trembleing Buttercups...and can be all in the same invented for them of Nest. Thirty times a-day or what, to less times and so on...as they grow...

The Hummers wore me out I am afraid, or the one did, two weeks of fifty times a day feedings and again as many checking in on him and adjusting things and worry...and weaving on my feet...on and on...everything so tiny...so I know, I know what you are up against and I admire it very much...and I salute you and your efforts to help them in their perils.


As for your little Pigeons right now...one note as for reference - since I never saw it to have recieved any recognition to let me know it was at all read or noticed previous by anyone...

If you see any chalky 'yellow' saturations on the cloth the poops land on...or elsewhere, this may be taken as an indicator of an infection from the motile flagellate protozoan borne illness of Tricomoniasis, which can manifest as Canker. For which, the old tried and true 'Emtryl' or now called merely Dimetridazole I think, and made in Mexico now instead of Wisconson or what...which may be had in forms suitable for mixing in Water, or administered into the crop as a pill, may prove a handy address. 

Young Birds given too much may walk like 'Frankenstein' for a day or two, or have some palsies for a short time, but may straighten out just fine if the too much was not way way too much.

Other meds of course are available for treatment such as Metronidazole and other 'zoles'...and I would welcome opinions on respective merits if anyone has some to share.

If as, I am sure most of you know, they often are found to suffer from it, or, the babys are expelled from their natural Nest for us to get them brought to us, by the judgement of their parents who sense the illness in them and abandon them or become frustrated with them having it.

LeFaber's "Nutristart" is available at any "petsmart"...which I had never been to untill a few weeks ago. 

Also, I believe the issue of rancidity is worth some ruminations...and I did not find the LeFaber's powder to smell rancid like the KTExact does...now maybe there is a "best if used before" date i did not see...I will look, there is, it says "03/MAR/06"...

Rancidity is well known to inhibit the assimilation of the very nutrients the product finds appearent merit in containing, so...can you see my reasoning for my earlier assertion? Something is not 'right' with it...somehow...something is rancid which should either not be in there at all, or that goes bad in the can.

Not trying to shoot a Holy Cow...just trying to think straight on habits or complaisencies...

Good luck with your Birds...

Best wishes to all...

Phil


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Pdpbison,
Forgive my fumbling posts, I did attempt to respond to your questions and observations. I think I chose the wrong method of posting them unfortunately. I will paste my comments and thoughts that were ment for you below.....

No worries! I understand and have taken no offense from anything said, my main missive here is to gain a better understanding of the proper care these babys need. I am able to sort out and blend the different suggestions for the birds best interest. Our rescue center does the best it can to care for all wild babies that are brought in, but last year alone we logged in over 1500 different critters. We operate 7 days a week, 12 hours a day with only 42 people VOLUNTEERING their time to save lives. Pigeons are time consuming to rear as nestlings. I have watched many of them fail because, I feel, they need more attention and care than we were able to provide.
I have taken it upon myself, above and beyond my own responsibilities as a Team Leader, to personally rehab the pigeon babies. I am hoping that more of them will survive and become releasable, thriving adults. The diet, method of feeding and the babys acceptance and mastery of those elements is the revolving point of the equasion.
Thankfully the babies do grow rather fast and do not need the pseudo-cropmilk for a very llong time. My chicks are to my best estimate, now 8 to 10 DAYS of age. They are standing and they squeek and flap, but no feathers yet. They are covered in a yellowish down and they look like they are ripening into pin cushions. They are alert and happy it seems, and they love all the physical stimulation they can get. 
Many people will argue this I am afraid, but I see a different, possibly higher level of intelligence in a pigeon vs. your ordinary sparrow. I believe pigeons nurture their young and are actually a tidy little bird.
My chicks, "poops" have been well formed, generous and odorless for the last 3 days/nights. They seem almost gelid in consistancy and are easy to clean up. I am amazed at the distance a chick can achieve while carefully defecating out of the nest. I can't help but think to myself, "just like spitting a watermelon seed" everytime a chick backs up and lets one rip.... 

I DO hand grind my baby food myself. It has been during the chicks very early development stages when seed isn't yet realistic that I resorted to using a canned artificial formula. I realize Kaytee isn't exactly designed to feed pigeons, that is why I opted to modify with my own additives. I am trying to fill the nutritional gaps as best as I can. 

I am open to trying "LeFerber's NUTRISTART" but I have never come across it in my travels to date. Our rescue facility has never made much of an effort to try anything that is hard to get hold of or is more costly than what we have established is successful for sustaining life. We are completely NON-FUNDED and we rely on the public's generosity for funding to purchase things we need to feed our babies. I am willing to donate what I need to save these critters lives. 


There was never any offense taken by me. I simply declined to agree on parts of the information you were offering. I haven't ever felt anything, anyone had to say was entirely WRONG. We all have our own perspective of things... 
I know how to handle pigeons and evaluate general health. I am just lacking the immediate practical experience of having raised hundreds of pigeons that so many of you folks have. Nothing, in my opinion, can take the place of actually "having been there and done that". I completely respect your knowledge, I would never proclaim to know more than I do. I did take my basic vet. education seriously and I put to use those things that I've learned and believe in. 

We all have one common goal here, it is painfully obvious. We are working to help some critter live a content and healthy life. People who willingly give up their own comforts so that an animal won't have to suffer, can't be bad people at heart. I think human egos get in the way of common sense and grace.

I can't begin to express my gratitude to each and every person who cared enough to try and help my situation. It is extremely helpful to have thought provoking questions asked. There have been many details I, myself, overlooked and failed to provide in my posts. If you folks weren't alert enough to prod about them, the chicks likely would suffer from my 
lack of hands on knowledge...




I hope you don't feel "put off" or that I shunned your excellent suggestions.... I haven't! I, too am trying to do too many things at one time and may have missed answering a question or addressing a point that was being made. If this is the case, please do toss it out here to me again and eventually I will snap out of my fog and reply as best I can. I'm one of the easiest people to get along with, really.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvianRescue,

Thank you...!

And good morning...

Also, dear all...

I would like to start two new threads for the specific address of two matters of common interest:

One, as investigates the constiruents and properties of Pigeon Milk and what we may find, learn and share about it, with a view toward seeing if we may approximate it for practical address of orphan hatchlings for whom no surrogate parent Pigeon is at hand.

Two, respecting those Pigeons we may be brought, who have been poisoned. As for what kinds of poisons tend to be used, how one may tell them apart from odor or symptom of the Bird(s), and seeing what regimines and praxis we can find or share for remediations of these Bird's heartwrending woes.

Now, I can not remember how to start a new thread...!

Help me please?

Thanks...

Hope all slept well, and were greeted by happy "wheeeeks!" and or "cheeps!"

Phil
el ve


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

If you click on "Pigeon Talk" on the top of the page , then click on Pigeons and People, then General Discussions you will find a button in the left hand corner that says "Start new thread". That would be the best place to start two new threads on the subjects of pigeon milk and poisoning.

 

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> 
> Makes sense...
> ...



Hi Phil, 

That is undestandable, we all have _off_ days, where we are tired, short and our patience runs thin. I recognize your points about good nutrition and it is very important I do agree. I just felt that in Avianrescue's case, this wasn't the issue. 

Anyways, all _IS_ well. Hope you enjoy the forum and stick around to learn and help others with us.


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> That is undestandable, we all have _off_ days, where we are tired, short and our patience runs thin. I recognize your points about good nutrition and it is very important I do agree. I just felt that in Avianrescue's case, this wasn't the issue.
> 
> Anyways, all _IS_ well. Hope you enjoy the forum and stick around to learn and help others with us.





Thank you for the kind words and your patient ability to set things straight Pigeonpal. I never intended to create the impression that I consider any life lost, acceptable. I wouldn't have spent the last several years as a Wildlife Rehabber if that were the case. I also wouldn't have taken on the added burden of saving my countys orphaned pigeons from probable death. 

Your support for my postings means a lot to me and is encouraging that maybe I am on the right track after all....
Thanks again....
AvianRescue aka Rebeccah


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Brad!


Thank you all for your good grace...

I would like to stick around...

We all have our desire to learn to know how to address the needs of these Birds, and we are very fortunate for a form in which it is possible to be in a community of like-minded others similarly dedicated.

This is precious...

Best wishes,

Phil


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Rebbecah, 

Hope you weren't scared away from the forum  Just wanted to check in with you to find out how the orphans are doing. You haven't posted anything recently so I'm just following up. Well, let us know when you're able.


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Little squablings doing very well!*

Hello,
No I wasn't scared off from the forum at all. I just had to put in a 12 hour shift at the Wildlife Rescue Center today and I just hadn't found time to post an update `til now...
The babies are doing very well now. They are starting to show interest in things other than being fed. They itch and groom themselves and each other whenever they are near enough. Pin feathers have begun to blossom into lovely feathers. (Much more dignified looking in my opinion)
They eat substantially more each feeding but can comfortably make it a good 4 hours before starvation sends them shrieking and flapping on tippy toes at me when I enter their room. They all are great eaters but several have definate preferances of how they want to be fed. 3 of them are content to gobble their food from a baggie held in my hand, a suggestion given to me by someone here in this forum. Forgive me but I've forgotton exactly who at the moment...
One of the babies, gapes wide open for it's food and is absolutely delighted to be fed with a large syringe that has a soft catheter tube that has been cut down to about 2 inches long. It gobbles the tip down like a worm and it stands perfectly still, while I slowly squeeze the proper amount down it's gullet. No other way will do... The final baby only wants to eat from a baby's bottle, IT'S baby bottle.... nipple has been altered so that the beak can be inserted and the food sucked down. This chick will not willingly eat in any other fashion. Most likely my fault for having experimented with so many different methods. If there comes another batch of chicks like these, I will definately choose one method of feeding them and stick with it... Mealtime can take forever for these guys....
The chicks get to spend some time in a communal area, walking about and "meeting" each other face to face. They are put into a large playpen that allows them room to flap and explore. I have been giving them several dishes of different seeds to play with. I have noticed they aren't really eating much yet, but they are playing with them after I "peck" at the seeds first.
Water was introduced today. They all got to take a bath in the sink with just about an inch or so of tepid water. The initial terror of the unfamiliar sensation was brief after I splashed my hands a bit next to them and soon each of them started fluffing about like old pros! I still am convinced that one of these guys has identity issues due to the constant "quacking" it does when it is blissfully happy.... It really is too funny!
The amount of "poo" they generate amazes me, but they are all very tidy about their beds and I have learned to spread newspaper under and behind their beds and it's simple to clean up and toss away. Other then shaking the bits of chaff out of their bedding I very seldom have to clean any poo from them... There are very few loose poos now. They are mostly nice big solid droppings. With the exception of the first "wake up" poo, it's always enormous and they make a big show of carefully positioning their rear up over the edge of the bed before letting it fly.... Again it cracks me up to see them doing their little rituals.
I have rescued thousands of birds over the years, but I have never spent so much time with any pigeon babies that were so very new like these guys were. I am finding it to be a very delightful and educational experience so far... It still bothers me that I couldn't help the two that died. It seems like I should have been able to do something to spur them on instead of watching them slowly fading while the others flourished.
Are there any suggestions or precautions I should be taking for the birds next stages of life? I am hoping to hear how other people integrate their chicks into adult bird-dom. I hope I can eventually release these guys so they will have a normal, natural life as full card-carrying adult pigeons. I realize they will most likely be irreversably imprinted on humans now, and if this is going to endanger them I am willing to provide them a lifetime home here. I would just like to be able to let them fly free and not keep them caged forever... Any thoughts on this? Thank you in advance...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the wonderful update! You write so well, that was a vivid and delightful description.


Cynthia


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Thank you kindly Cynthia, It is hard to get the help you actually are looking for if you don't take the time to communicate EXACTLY what is going on with your situation. I have learned to give acurate detailed descriptions of my animal care proceedures, due to having to provide reports to Dept of F & G about animals in my care. I also am very fond of what I do and I consider it fun to talk about.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

He Rebbecah, 

Sounds like a good update! But it also sounds like your hands are MORE than full. LOL. All those youngsters are for sure to be a handful. Thanks for replying and best of luck to you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvianRescue,


I was just thinking of writing to you to inquire after the little ones! And here you have posted a heartwarming update of their progress...

As for their integretion amid their wild fellows - 

My own experience has almost allways been about the same. The 'imprint' you are concerned about will almost certainly remain an expedient and mutable decision on their part, to be revised as their appreciations and selfhoods continue to grow, rather than an immutable identification with humans.

All of my occasions of raising orphan Baby Pigeons, which is certainly some hundreds of Birds by now, saw the same sequences, with some individual differences as for timetable and nuance. 

In which the young Birds acquiese to a gradual weaning, as they learn to eat and drink ( usually with me 'pecking' with them often which encourages them), attain new moods of selfhood and propriety, learn to fly indoors to roost in high places and 'token' me-feeding-them or offering water as an emotional re-assurance that I am still "there" even after they have learned to eat effectively. Around which time I am letting them socialize with the Wild Pigeons.

Usually, I carry the youngsters outside individually, once they can fly well enough say to j-u-s-t get to the roof if they wanted to, and I hold them gently for a little while so they can watch the wild Birds grazing on the seeds I put out. Then I set them onto some shoulder high place or ladder or something, and they usualy sit there and tremble, feeling shy or intimidated. Then after a little while they fly onto my shoulder and want to go back in.
The next day, or the day after, we do the same, but now they are more comfortable, and will sit on their spot a while and maybe fly down tentatively. trembling, nervous, shy... I usually leave them for a few hours, knowing they know how to fly back in if they want, which they tend to do after a few hours.

Next day, or the day after, I carry them out again or they ride on my shoulders, and they usually fly down and graze with the wild Birds, and might spend the night out on the roof or something.

Then they usually come back in the next morning wishing for some naps and food and maybe a me-feed, and to rest from staying up all night.

Then, a couple days later, they are pacing at the high windows wanting to go out!

So I lead the way, calling for them, and I let them fly out then instead of carrying them out, knowing they know the way to fly back in. And usually, they then intergrate into the Wild Flock at this time and I see them then every day, pecking in rapid effeciency and style, amid their wild Fellows. And leaving with the flock later before night.

They soon are as circumspect and independant as the rest of the wild Flock, and have the palpable mood of determined self posession and dedication to their lives. Sometimes they come back inside years later, walking in usually, with a mate, stay a few minutes after I offer a few seeds and water...then leave. The mate usually trembles a good deal and is quite uncomfortable but somehow willing to go along. One must of course move s-l-o-w-l-y in such cases! Lest the one who is so trusting to even consider so foreign an explore, should become frightened.

Phil
el ve


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Thank you Phil!*

That is just what I have been hoping to hear! A very well written account of things to come for my babies... I have been at a loss of how things should progress so my pijis will have the best chance for a "normal" life among other pigeons.
I DO have a wild flock of pigeons that visit for a snack occasionally. They flutter about for just a few moments several times a week and then they are gone. I have a nice area that my babies will be able to view the wild birds from, yet still stay inside and protected while they become familiar with the other birds.
I do hope things will go as well for me and my birds, as they have so far with you and your birds. I can't imagine a nicer release scenario than the one you describe...
I will keep you updated on any new developments should they occur and I hope to post some photos soon... Finding the free time is my only issue... lol


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvionRescue,


Ahhhhh...all these timeless and delicate, welling or vivid Heart Tugs of their transitions unto Wild Bird freedoms and responsibilities... know well..!

...big sigh...

My last two little ones, I see every day amid the Wild Flock, whom I have fed a couple times a day for many years now. In a few more weeks or a month I will likely not be able to recognise them, oweing to how their checker pattern is so like a half dozen other young adults who are maybe a month ahead of them in age...

One sometimes hears also of 'Weaning Stress', and as for my experience, I do not believe I ever saw any. I have found them to be very enthusiastic and even proud in a way, of their learning to eat on their own, and of course, sometimes some of them will overeat and scare you with how FULL their Crops become as the Seeds hydrate. So I learned to limit how much Seed they may have access to so as to avoid that possibility, and instead, to allow Seeds (or seed Mix with other things mixed in) & allways seperate containers or little piles of Grit, several times a day in smaller amounts.

But anyway, rambly, sorry...the Weaning Stress thing, never occurred with mine that I ever noticed or felt, oweing to how I would gradually taper the me-feedings with their increase for success with their self feedings...me 'pecking' with them for maybe 30 seconds or something, just about every time for those weeks, which they like to have as for feeling you are 'with' them in the learning deed they are involved in. They are very sensitive in social and guidence things, and presence things, in many ways.

And also, as I taper the me-feeding them, down to maybe one every other day of a mere token feed of a small amount, while, I had been the Water Bringer for some time, while tapering off my being the feeder of them, they begin to accept eating on their own with ease and happyness and with me bringing the little Water cup, it takes care of the emotional or psychological comfort or assurance they may need, to know that I am 'there' looking after them, looking over them. 

One will find also that they will 'ask' in their manner of 'wheeking' or squeaking, in ways which can in fact mean "I would like you to feed me please!", or, "I would like some Water please!"...likely, I am sure even, that there are further refinements lost to my ears as well.

So, happy, easy, no-stress weaning...is to taper off the you-feeds, as, while pecking 'with' them in small durations for their comfort and social sense of havine been guided and that you are 'with' them even in small important occasions...you will see them really get into the trance of pecking, and having enthusiasms wich include likeing you seeing them learning it...what with it being new and all...and as you alternate a couple you-feed with every four or five or them feeding themselves with you also pecking for a few moments to start them off, you can become the Water bringer only then, which will please them in how the transition transspired gracefully...leaving very few you-feeds for the last occasions immediately before their decision to want to be amid the Wild flock.

Which , for a few intermittant experiences of seeing, being near, and tentatively joining the flock, their desire to join it is likely they will want, and something they will communicate to you about in stages for your having carried them out and stayed with them, allowing them a way to fly back in and so on as I described above...and as they feel themselves to be ready, (you can even satall a little bit, an extra day or something espeically if they have already spent a night out, keep them in a couple days before letting them out again) they will indicate it, as they accept their new consciousness welling to be amid their Wild Fellows...and one last you-feed will mean a lot to them as a sort of re-assurance they will value of their being looked after, even if of course you may not join them in the Air and on far diatant roofs and so on...when they go...

I am a sleepy head...


Nighty night!

Rambly, 
Yours,

Phil

You have ever so much more TO do than I, so all of this is much easier for the small scale I operate on!


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Another casualty of windy days and dogs...*

Today another tiny bundle of fluff and feathers has been delivered to me. We still are not yet open for business at the Wildlife rescue center so I had to make the choice of life or death for a little pigeon chick who has managed to survive falling from its nest, being "found" and packed around by a dog, spending a very chilly night outdoors on the ground alone and not being fed for almost two days at least.... 
A reasonable person would just put the chick down and end its suffering .... right? I mean how can a tiny baby make it after all the unimaginable horrors it had to have endured? Well I guess I am not ordinary person, I probably might be considered irresponsible as well... When I got the call today, I just had to see the chick myself first, before ok-ing euthanasia.
This little guy has NO obvious damage physically, outside of a bruise on it's thigh, that I can find. It is still too young to move about much, I am going to guess it's age at just about 10 days max... The chick is very shy and won't ask for food from me, even though it is starving. Its little keel is like a knifeblade and there is nothing in the way of muscle on its body or legs. It DOES have good feather development, wings, tiny stumpy tail and 80% coverage over its body. 
It's poo started out as the teeniest little speck of green but has now over the last 12 hours developed into a peanut sized gray/brown watery blob. I hydrated the chick with a bit of Ringers and Dex initially and saw an immediate improvement of interest in the new environment the chick is now in...
I fed, via tube, 3 cc's of my baby formula discussed previously and the chick dropped right off to sleep in a bed of soft kitchen towels wrapped around a reptile warming stone set to a low heat. (I don't normally use any artificial heat unless the baby has trouble regulating itself, this chick has no reserves to keep it warm at all!) 
After about two hours I noticed movement from the baby and I offered food again. Still not willing to eat for me... I wonder if the chick is just too accustomed to being fed by a mother/father to readily accept my food...? This chick can hear my other chicks but I don't want to introduce it to them yet for fear of transmission of a disease or parasite... I will keep seperate and sterile until I have had a better chance to observe the chicks health and actions/attitude. I see nothing to indicate any external parasites being present so far...
This makes baby number 8.... I am SO thankful birds sleep thru the night!
Any thoughts and observations from you folks are welcome and eagerly anticipated....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvianRescue,

Oooo!

Well, I am way sleepy so forgive if disjointed a little...

The last two Babys I had, were initially shy and quiet and showed no interest in eating, and were slightly afraid or cautious anyway. Some very young Babys (like the one you have now) will 'click' their Beak at you even, construeing you to be an intruder, as a device they have for trying to scare off invaders when alone, even though they are not anylonger in their (original) Nest.

Now, one as young as you have there...they like it if held in 'hand nest' and you can softly sing them little made up lullabyes about how pretty they are and how they will grow up to be big ans strong and so on...while gently preening or pretending to preen their little yellow tufts.

They were used to immediate presence and tactile warmth of their parents sitting on them, and I think it throws them off to be without it. I sometimes used to just tuck them into my shirt front, into the sort of fold at my stomach area of my shirt. I would tend to do that with any youngster Bird in fact unless it was just too young and fragile to do it with, and leave them there for a while while I did other (quiet) things. The movement never seemd to bother them, and after a little while, when I'd look in on them, theyd be brighter and looking out at me with a mood of likeing it and feeling interested in "Hmmmm! What next?"...

So, even just a few minutes now and then, if possible, will fill that need for them, and set them into feeling that part of things, while different now, is allright enough for them to not bother being stressed about it or feeling scared or lonesome. 

Anyway, my last two...they were about two weeks old I think, and I just made the kind of sound their parents would make if interesting them to be fed, a kind of "...oooOOooogh!" sound, and I will say, they just came alive and vivid with a fleeting excitement of squeaking and wing pumping, then they looked at eachother, and seemed confused, then pensive, then got shy again...

So, I repeated it, and they responded again, and I then gently massaged their beaks' sides with my finger tips and they went wild with enthusiams then. They just needed something as for information in their logic, to get the drift of the new deal.

After that it was all perfect...I would call, they'd get all wound up. They would see me, they'd get all wound up. They'd be full, stuffed, and I'd walk back into the room, and they'd get all wound up again, and I would pretend to sit on them with my palms and they;d settle down and got into a nap, till I moved my hands away, then they'd get all wound up. That seems to be how thay are, and no wonder their parents get a mite tired sometimes, or have that 'look' of loving wearyness..!

Now, as you may know, I never fed a Pigeon with a Catheter or Syringe, and it scared me to try it oweing to how I can not see in there to know where am putting it. Maybe you can instruct me as possible to do in print, on how to do it sometime?

So all my experience has been with feeding them in a little 'pocket' of Plastic film, to resemble their parent's throat, or, before that, in the interior of a soft 'Baby Bottle Nipple' which was messier and less sensitive then the 'pocket' method.

They will find a familiar and welcome stimulous with having their little soft Beaks gently massaged from the sides, to resemble the tactile association of being fed, and that can get them interested if listless or shy or discouraged. 

And if you can try out variations of, or master the sound or call their parents tend to make, which says "Okay now, come over here to me, and get some chow..." they will likely respond very well and with enthusiasm. This is the sound the parents make when the Babys are old enough to be climbing around outside the nest, but even younger ones will usually know what it means and it works good enough for them too usually, even though they are too young to go to the parent, and of course the parent at that age would come to them with no sounds being made.

Good luck...

Good sleep...!

'Night Owls'


Phil


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Greetings Phil and other folks following this thread....*

Another update on my growing flock of pigeons... The original 5 (lost 2) chicks are looking very much like fully fledged adults now and are readily pecking at any seed offered to them. They still are not actually eating enough of them to sustain themselves without my feedings yet, but i consider the interest in new foods a victory of sorts.

All of the first batch are healthy, strong birds. They run, flap, squeek and cluck to me whenever they hear my voice. I have begun making bathtime a regular thing for them, followed by a nice soothing "blow-dry" snuggled in my lap as I "groom" them dry. They love bathing in my kitchen sink, in about 1 - 2 inches of tepid-warm water. They fluff and snorkel about in it until they absolutely drip with soaked feathers. 
I immediately scoop them up, (I usually let them bathe in pairs, fresh bath water for each bath of course) and towel dry them as best I can and then they normally nap while I hold an old style circular dryer over them on low heat setting. (They can't be burned, it's a completely safe dryer used for Perms, I always keep my hand between their bodies and the full force of the air as a precaution.) 
They will fluff their feathers out and twitter sleepily with their eyes half-closed, I believe in total birdy bliss. Spoil my pigeons??? Nooooooooo not me....

The newest little fella is finally starting to come alive. He is much less aprehensive about being touched and feeding has turned a major corner now as I have discovered his "secret"
This little guy likes to eat from a little cup as I guide his beak into it... Much more rewarding for both of us instead of having to Crop feed via a tube... 
One thing about this baby is I am concerned about his leg developement. Is it "normal" for chicks to waddle about on their heels? This chick doesn't put it's feet down to walk yet, it shuffles around (as little as it does at this age) with it's little feet actually lifted up off the ground/floor. It has developed calouses or pressure spots on it's heels. 
This is the baby that fell from it's nest and was carried about by a dog for a day. It does not appear to have any breaks, it's legs and wings seem to have full R.O.M. It does NOT grip very willingly with it's toes, I am noticing. The chick seems to balance itself by shoving forward with it's feet and bracing it's backside against the back of it's "nest". When it relaxes and naps, I notice it almost seems to list to the side. 
I don't see any evidence of splay leg at all, It just doesn't keep it's feet under it's body like most birds automatically do. It can not stand upright at all... It just shuffles, very clumsily forward or backward. Again I guess this birds age to be about 2 weeks now, plus or minus a day or two.
It seems like the other 5 all had no problem standing upright from the beginning. This chick does not seem to be in any pain, as it would with a broken pelvis... I'd imagine... but something's not right about it... Any ideas???

Phil.... I will be happy to try and explain how I feed my birds, my method of tubing in general, next time as I have to get my tail in bed now... I am sure you know the up too late again mode I am currently in... I really am enjoying your vivid encounters of your chick rearing experiences... They are so incredibly helpful at this point to me... Thank you again!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the wonderful update.
No wonder they are doing so good, you are a great bird mom and you are doing an amazing job caring for them. Are they so lucky.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

AvianRescue said:


> I don't see any evidence of splay leg at all, It just doesn't keep it's feet under it's body like most birds automatically do. It can not stand upright at all... It just shuffles, very clumsily forward or backward. Again I guess this birds age to be about 2 weeks now, plus or minus a day or two.
> It seems like the other 5 all had no problem standing upright from the beginning. This chick does not seem to be in any pain, as it would with a broken pelvis... I'd imagine... but something's not right about it... Any ideas???


Though they can be and often are very clumsy at this age with walking, I'd suspect that there is some type of problem. Perhaps the "history" with the dog is the cause of the problem .. spinal injury of sometype. Also perhaps inadequate food before you got the baby which resulted in metabolic bone disease. 

Best of luck with the little guy. I hope whatever the problem is that it resolves quickly with your excellent care.

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that you gave the new little one a chance of life.

The shuffling sounds very much like the problems Izzy's Mel had, so you might like to read that thread. As far as I remember Mel's problems were corrected:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8226&referrerid=560 

I am a great believer in additional calcium when there are problems involving bones or muscles.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvianRescue, 


(Wrote early this morning, but my DSL pooped out before I could post it, so I saved it elsewhere and now am back.)


Good morning...hope you slept well...!

I like your Hair-Drier idea very much, (after one's padding
or blotting them dry of course, ) and I will start useing it
when youngsters or convelesent others have bathed. Keeping
sure that the heat is mediated by my fingers so it can not
be too much, as you mention you were doing. What a nice
idea!

I think I have had some 'teeterers' a few times long ago,
and so far as I recall, the matter resolved itself with no
compromise of function. I think I kind of set them up, when
I did have them, with a deeper little small-box or bowl of
sorts, imagining they would appreciate resting their legs
that little bit more, by having nearer and taller
nest-sides for their body to be against. Some 'well' in a soft, rolled cloth "U" shape for them to sit on in a bowl or box...

But I do not know anything about what this could represent,
aside from maybe the result of a rough landing from the nest-fall 
maybe, which had sprained or strained something. Or other injury which might be interfering with nerves or putting pressure on them somehow.

Of course their little Feet should be able to grip very well
at this age, so...my own suspicion leans toward some sprain
or inflamation or contusion or adema or injury at any rate,
of the hips or upper thighs or pelvis area or effecting the nerves of them, from a possible
concussion with the ground initially or from the Dog carrying it as Terry mentions above...so, warmth-rest-chow...!

Now, does this one pump their shoulders and flap their Wings
when feeding? You could, if possible hold them in one hand
with their legs dangleing through your fingers, while
feeding them with the other hand, so their feeding enthusiasms do
not strain their legs at this point, or oblige them to strain them.

Or, in a similar hold, gently reach up with your free hand's
finger tips and massage/explore their thigh and hip areas
and see what sort of reaction they may have...it might feel
very good for them, or, you will find out anyway...if there is any tenderness.

At this age certainly, they become little furnaces...and growing so much, will tend to heal very well from almost anything.

Oh, a small mention as for your others (or this one also in turn,) who have begin
pecking on their own - if you make a sort of 'hook' or 'L'
with your index finger, and with your hand resting on the
table or what, kind of 'peck' with that low, resting hand's
finger that way at some scattered Seeds and Grit. Pecking here and there at various scattered Seeds. You will see them watching where your finger 'pecks' which to them, is a recommendation in effect. They will 
benifit from being guided in pecking interests by examples of you pecking with them like this...just a few moments now and then is all they need.

So, it will encourage and inspre them for you to 'eat' with them a
few moments now and then in that way. I usually talk with them while
doing this also, saying things like "Yes! Oh-my, what
excellent pecking you are doing!" and "Mmmmmm! These are such nice Seeds!" so on...as they pump
their shoulders and flap their Wings and squeak a great
deal, sometimes running in circles even, and begin learning
to be pecking on their own. They can get a-l-m-o-s-t as
excited eating-pecking on their own as they do for being
fed, especially if you are 'pecking' with them.

If they start going after your fingers in asking to be fed,
simply say "We are learning to peck now! Oh! Lets peck a
little while! Here, look at all these inviteing Seeds! " and
so on, and usually they will shift their interest and
attention to learning to peck with you. If not, if they stay
all wound up in the "Feed me please!" mode, then just pat
them gently on their little heads or with little hand hugs
for a moment, and leave...just like Mom or Dad would do, or close enough anyway.

But
of course, feed them sometimes soon, regardless...(and consider to take in earnest me mentions of you being the only source of Water, aside from what is in the food you feed them I mean) and they will
become interested in pecking over time and experience,
especially if with just a little drama as for their
wondering when the next you-feed will be, but only a little
tension is needed...and the assurance, or re-assurance, and
encouragement of you pecking with them, is important to them
and eases the transition...soon you will see them showing off to you how well they can peck! They do find praise and encouragement meaningful with these things.


So, your reginim of good nutrition, warmth, the odd warm
bath even...should be helping. The only thing I can think of
is that maybe it would be fine for now if they used their
legs as little as possible for a week
or so, maybe more. Once they are feeling better of course, they will be only too happy to be 
walking and climbing and so on with plenty of energy and
interest...it will be obvious that they then are mending or mended.


Best wishes,


Phil


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Here are some photos of the little crippled pigeon... Actually he/she may not be crippled, but just shuffles about oddly instead of actually walking normally. I tried to take a picture of the bird standing as upright as it could, not an easy task....


OK... until I figure out how to make my photos smaller I guess I won't be posting them here yet ... arghhhh !

Must do more reasearch .... will return to post more in a bit...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If you would like to e-mail your pics to me I will reduce and return them:

[email protected]


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Though they can be and often are very clumsy at this age with walking, I'd suspect that there is some type of problem. Perhaps the "history" with the dog is the cause of the problem .. spinal injury of sometype. Also perhaps inadequate food before you got the baby which resulted in metabolic bone disease.
> 
> Best of luck with the little guy. I hope whatever the problem is that it resolves quickly with your excellent care.
> 
> Terry


 Terry,

I just wanted to drop a note to tell how my piji's are doing ... They are all feathered now and they fly very well. They are graduated to eating on their own and they have a lovely huge aviary to live in until I am more confident of their self supporting abilities. The littlest one with the crippled leg is an amazing flyer. It can out fly any of the others and perching doesn't seem to hinder it much... It's toes won't grasp the perch but it has learned to land just so... and it situates itself in a way that allows it easy take off or back and forth shuffling if need be. It still hops and skips when on a flat surface as it is unable to be-bop around like the rest can. 
My hopes ar high for it's success as a free bird someday, but I will keep it if I feel it won't thrive if released. It still cheeps at me and always comes to light on my shoulder when I visit. (several times a day) I want to be sure they are all eating enough on their own so I spend a few minutes "pecking" around with them, every few hours. 
My job has kicked in at high speed, injured and orphaned wildlife are streaming in from all over Calif. I am still taking any nestling pigeons into my home for more intensive care than they would receive at the Center. I just can't be comfortable with 75 different people trying to tube feed them every week... Too much of a risk that they will be aspirated and drown... 
Thanks to all who have taken an interest and have offered words of wisdom and encouragement..
A R


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update on your little charges. Sounds like things are indeed going well. I, too, will hope that the youngster with the crippled leg will someday be able to be free.

Yes, baby bird season is definitely upon us at this point. It hasn't yet become overwhelming here, but I know that day is right around the corner.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Rebbecah good to hear from you! Sounds like a very good update on the orphans indeed. Perhaps in time the one will make better use of it's feet but still sounds like a healthy one. Yes, tis the season for many of the rehabbers on the list and you're soon to be bombarded with patients Good luck with everything and check back every once in awhile and let us know how things are going.

Take care,


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Rebbecah,

A very welcome update!

I also found a baby dove that cannot use his legs today, he also has pipey tail feathers and I am wondering whether this is just a temporary weakness of the legs caused by malnutrition. His feet are warm, but he cannot grip with them.

Are your little ones feet warm?

Cynthia

Were your


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Okay, I suck, I've been off this list for some time, but now that I am wait late to this post, I just wanted to say WELL DONE!! Thank you for caring for the under dog=) Yong


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,

I have seen what may have been sprains from a fall, where one or both legs were very weak for a while. I usually roll two ends of a folded in half hand towell ( or a longer towell I tear in half lengthwise), to make a laying-place for such legs to rest while the Bird can lay allright. I myself never had very many occasions of them, but the ones I did have returned to normak use in a couple weeks or less.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Phil, Moppet is lying on a towel doughnut and looking fairly comfortable at the moment. I hope that her weakness will prove to be temporary.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia, 


Too, they can quite possibly have cracked bones with out necessarily showing much discoloration or swelling, and up high, in their thigh, it is hard to see anyway. This also can occasion an appearence of weakness since they di not wish to allow any weight on it of course...

As we can imagine, bad landings, or instinctive orientations in trying to fly when way too young to do so when falling, can have them land hard on their out-stretched little Legs...as well as bruising their undersides and who knows what else as well.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Cynthia,
My little one's feet, especially the weak one are warm, much warmer than the other "normal" chicks... I have been wondering why this is but thought little of it since there is no infection or break in the leg... I was thinking perhaps a toe was hurt or even broken. The bird does not want to walk on it's "bad" foot, instead it walks on it's heel with the toes lifted off of the ground. Just on the weak side though, the other foot/leg seems completely fine.
My area is having a burst of beautiful, warm weather and babies are just about raining into the Center. Today, just in the first 4 hours, I ended up with 8 baby wood ducks and an orphaned goose-ling. Such cute little babies but I am glad I am only focusing my hospice care on baby pigeons, baby ducks are all over the place. Pigeons at least stay put, and are content to be in their nest for a while... whew!


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Yong,
Thank you for the kind words and it is a pleasure to meet you, (if only here online) it's good to speak with other people who love the little guys and are collectively trying to help them survive...
Yea us!!

A R aka Rebeccah


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,


Omygod, 'Baby Ducks'!

I have had a youngster Duck here now for a couple weeks...(I think it was merely dumped at a local park, where others found him limping and exhausted and upset, and brought him to me...) wonderful, sweet disposition, narrates EVERYTHING it does with a wide range of vocalizations, a totally splendid vivid Bird...and...at least for a while there, it was driving me over the edge of sanity I think, since, I can do nothing without him/her taking the most acute interest and wishing to 'follow' or 'graze' with me, even though I of course am not grazing!
Since I am a Wood and Metal shop with only a tiny appartment, the floors are not a good place for a Duck to graze...so I may not let him be on the floors unless I am leading ho, to somewhere in which case he dutifully walks with me.

Anyway, we have managed, walks in the Park in stolen hours here and there, and, "The Secret 'Box' hiding place where no preditors could ever find him!" method of a largish towell lined 'box' with a light gauzy cotton blanket ovet it, for occasions of when I must be out of his sight or away for a little while.

He has done well with the 'Box' and has not seemed to find it unpleasant.

Otherwise, I I move out of his sight, he starts an escalating volume of honkings embued woth in increasingly worried, frantic even concern...


...sigh...

Good luck with yours!

Wow...

Now, two things of interest maybe...

Would you like to share notes on what we are feeding our Ducks?

And, since mine gets really water-logged after about ten minutes or so in Water, how may I help him get the quality of Feathers a Duck needs to have for swimming, and, or, at what age do they tend to do so? Or how DOES that work???

Best wishes!

Post some images!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the wonderful update Rebeccah. I am so glad all your babies are doing great.

Reti


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Curious about a behavior I am seeing....*

Now that my squabs are fully fledged and well on their way to being free adults, they are interacting with each other in ways I am curious about.
For instance, I am not sure of the sex of each pigeon so I have to assume the males are more prone to puffing their necks up and squaring off face to face and pecking at each other until one backs down and runs away... Out of the six I have together in my outside Aviary, only two seem to be unwilling to confront the most aggressive "King pigeons". They would rather keep to themselves, happily pecking about doing pigeon stuff.
Eye contact seems to have great significance to my birds. When the more dominant birds make eye contact with another dominant bird, they "shiver". Their feathers quiver almost imperceptably, then they go about their business unbothered. Almost is if they are saying, "Hey take it easy, I am just passing thru".
The only conflict I see is when a bird gets shuffled into the most dominant birds, "spot". The dominant bird immediately defends his space, flapping and pecking at the intruder until they vacate. Occasionally, I am the intruder and they will enthusiastically peck and pinch at my hand and fingers until I either scoop them up and "burrito" them into submission, or let them alone.
I don't want them mean, just able to defend themselves if need be. Should I quit handling them now completely and seriously start the release process?
They all eat well on their own and do not beg me for rood at all. They all bathe on their own and they can seek out food "hidden" under scattered hay and grasses on the floor of the Aviary. 
I feed them seeds as close to natural as I can get my hands on, that they will be looking for in this area. I am lucky enough to live near several hundred acres of Millet(and other grain) fields. I actually cut the stalks and bring the grain-ladden bundle to the Aviary and my birds know how to jump up and tug them down so they can eat them.... I have an older, mature hen that is savvy to foraging who they've learned to imitate. 
She lives next to them and they watch every move she makes. You can just about see the light click on in their head when they "get" something she's doing. It cracks me up, constantly!
Enough of that, I am so easily distracted from my main point... My question of you more experienced folk is about the shivering behavior and your opinion on when these babies should be able to make a fair go at being wild birds. Should I wean them from my contact completely and stop talking to them or handling them?? The rescue and rehabbing part of my job is actually the easiest, it's the release that worries me the most. 
I suppose it's much like learning to let you own children go out on their own when they reach adulthood. I have always been a smother-mother...

<Dramatic sigh here>


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You have done an amazing job with the babies.
I am not good in releasing birds so I can't give you much advice on that. Where I live is not a good place to release pigeons, their only way to control the pigeon population is by putting out Avitrol. Wish I had a place like your's.

Sounds though like your guys have normal wild behavior. Did you notice if they are tame around other people, do they fly on people's shoulders? From what you describe they should do good if released.
Some pigeons are more quiet and mind their own business, others are the alphas, the bosses. You have a beautiful healthy flock there. Congratulations.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

..sounds like thay will do fine...!


Now, have you feral flocks near bye?

Can you feed a feral flock where these youngsters can see them from their Aviary?

The 'shivvering' iis something they all do at various times...no worries there...the rest also, is normal for them whether wild or raised by you or me.

Generally, I am the top 'Bird' in terms of authority, and when i get fights between say two Big recovered ferals contesting some high spot they each with to have, I tend to break up the fight gently and holding them each for a moment I give them a sort of 'look' and by golly, they do not tend to do it again! it is easy and not mean or anything, and it works!

I see no problem with your interactions with them up untill the time of their release unto wild ways...

Most of my releases occur with them having been handled and talked to and so on up to the last minute, for adults, and for youngsters, please see my previous mentions here in your thread about that.

But since you have not established a method of them comeing to you for water or answering your calls to them with t heir comeing, you do not have the option of calling them to return to you after a day's free outing amid their wild bretherin..

But i am sure they will be just fine.

The older 'savvy' Hen is a good thing...and I am confident they will thrive and do well once amid their wild bretherin...

You did well...!

Yippeeee!

They have a good head start now...and it sounds like they are a completely normal happy bunch soon to be wishing for more adventure and discoveries!



You could start letting them out to fly by day and come back at eve if you like.

If you wait TOO long, they will start pairing off, making nests, laying Eggs and calling your Aviary "Home" and will not want TO leave...

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> You have done an amazing job with the babies.
> I am not good in releasing birds so I can't give you much advice on that. Where I live is not a good place to release pigeons, their only way to control the pigeon population is by putting out Avitrol. Wish I had a place like your's.
> 
> Sounds though like your guys have normal wild behavior. Did you notice if they are tame around other people, do they fly on people's shoulders? From what you describe they should do good if released.
> ...


 Thank you Reti, I am dedicated to helping these babies survive. I have grown very fond of pigeons and doves because so few people seem interested in helping them when they have an orphan or an injured bird. Pigeons almost seem "disposable" and after caring for so many little ones, it just makes me sick to think of how people use them to train hunting dogs or poison them leaving them to die a slow agonizing death... 

My babies are all semi-wild, even after having to feed them and care for them so intensely from the very moment they were hatched just about... They tolerate my visits without flipping out but they are making it clear that they only want to be handled on their terms. They bite and pinch any appendage that crowds their "space", hard! Once in a while they will decide to fly over to me and inspect my shoelaces, my ear, tug at my hair or buttons. A couple of the babies don't mind being scritched a little but as far as hopping on other people, no way.... They are not easy to catch according to my husband and sons. (I sent them out to rescue the babies from a sudden hailstorm one afternoon... It took 3 big strapping men almost 40 minutes to catch 6 pigeons in a 20 x 20 x 10 Aviary, it takes me 2 minutes tops!)

Oh a quick note about the littlest chick with the bum leg/foot... it is doing very well now, it can grasp the roost and it finally walks upright. I still can tell it's not 100% right, but it makes up for it with it's amazing flying ability. It can fly loops around any other bird and even tho it is the low bird on the pecking order, I hardly ever see it getting picked on anymore.... none of the others seem to be able to catch it! My fingers are crossed. I am going to try to release them this weekend, if the weather is nice. I think they are ready...


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Thank you Phil, 
That's why I am thinking it is time to release them. I never planned on keeping them here unless I felt they couldn't make it on their own. I do call them and they will come to me to see what I have for them... They are absolutely the most nosey little guys around this place. They simply can not stand hearing something crinkle or sparkle without tiptoeing over to check it out... If it's something scary like the running water hose, they inspect it from a safe place, usually my head, until they are happy that it's not going to attack them and soon they are hopping and flapping about like nitwits in the mist of the spray.... Any standing water in a dish or puddle has to be bathed in and tasted and food in any sort of dish absolutely must be kicked out and the dish upended as soon as possible.
I "talk" to them and they stop and cluck or tweet back. I have cut down the amount of physical interaction with them out of fear of domesticating them completely. I think they will recognize me for a while and may respond to me once they are free if the mood suits them to do so. That's just fine for me... I do have several large feral groups around this area. They visit now and then and of course I offer feed and water in safe high places in full view of my babies. Whenever the wild ones visit, my babies do a lot of rubber-necking and clucking about them but they haven't yet made any obvious attempts at communication with them. I was hoping it would be as simple as just opening the door and seeing them fly off with the flock, but you can't pry my chicks out of their Aviary with a crowbar when the wild birds hang around... lol

Well I am off to bed now... I have two of the tiniest little dove chicks in my pockets as I sit here right now. They were blown from a nest a couple days ago and could not be returned again. One has a terrible looking injury, it's crop split open like a tomato when it hit the ground. I cleaned it up and have sewn it up as best as I could, so far it seems to be working. The chick eats without any trouble or leakage from the wound. I am careful to not allow it to overeat and stress my dubious sewing attempt. I will be amazed if this one lives, but with Baytril on board and the wound kept clean and dry, I think it has a chance... Any suggestions with doves from anyone?? I am all ears...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

*!*

Hi AvianRescue,

Wonderful...!


You may have to be the judge of your youngster's outings for them to associate with the Wild ones...just pick them up and carry them out...Lol...

I allways am the judge of these initial outings, they never seem to do so on their own initially.

I carry them out on my shoulders or in my hands, and set them on something shoulder high so they can watch the ferals grazeing close by.

Usually they just sit there trembleing and so on and do nothing. Maybe nervously preen or something off and on. I stand near by and keep an eye on things...after a little while I bring them back in.

Next day, I do this again, and they will fly down to the edge of the feral group and stand there and tremble or nervously, distractedly, peck at a few seeds...I stay near and keep an eye on things. Maybe I leave them to it and just check on them off and on, then at some point I bring them back in or call them to come back in.

Next day they usually fly down and join the grazing ferals and kind of tremble a little and more or less, but find their confidence somewhat to get into it, and usually they do not want to come back in but were too nervous to really eat much. I usually leave them to it and just check on them mow and then usually this round they end up on the roof when the wild ones have departed at dusk.

Next morning they are miserable from being awake all night and hungry and thirsty and so on, so I call them in and let them eat and drink and nap the day.

Then, usually, next day or the day after, they are pacing at the windows wanting to go out!

So, I lead the way and they flying follow, and they spend their day amid the grazing ferals and depart with them at dusk. They return with the ferals come morning and graze with them the day as effeciently and dedicatedly as if they had allways been among them.

So, like that... a succession of progressive little forays, in which they soon find and establish their confidence with what at first is the novelty or intimidation of a new stage of response-ability and action...

But the forst few occasions need to be form your carrying them out to it...once theu are "pacing" you will see it, and know that now "they" are really wanting TO be out there among their fellows.

I never found my habdleing or hugs or preenings or other interactions with raised babys to have had any detraction to their assimilation amid the wild ones once they went through these few successive stages of experience and confidence building. They soon become as wild as the rest and would not let me get any nearer to them than the wild ones do!

So, I would not be concerned about handleing them or giving them affection or so on...they will soon assume their mood of independance from you as they acquire their new stance and confidence amid their wild fellows.


The only thing that might interfere with this is keeping them too long past this period of their natural adolescence and it's amenibility to it's innate progression to independance, once that independance is kindly overseen and encouraged in stages by your managing it's initial stages of progression, which they will accept and grow into in really, about the span of a business week or so...four or five days is all this phase takes.

Wow, good work on your little Dove's Crop...!

My experience with Baby Pigeons ( but almost never any Baby Doves, whom I would expect to enjoy the same attributes) is that they are remarkable in their recouperative and healing abilities. As long as no infection is permitted to opportune, your little Dove should heal just fine and thrive..!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*First foray into the wild....*

Well Phil,
Today was such a beautiful day here that I decided the "kids" needed to go out and meet new friends. This morning, a small flock of pigeons, about 10 of them is all, chose to hang out near the back of my arena. They were busy kicking around and doing their thing and I thought, "Aha! this will be a great time to take the kids for a walk". 
I trotted back up to the Aviary and scooped up all the wiggling, protesting pigeons I could carry and I set out to introduce them to the feral pigeons. I had to leave two of my babies behind because they were being difficult about leaving the Aviary, so I just left the door open wide and let them choose to follow or not.
I wasn't quite out of sight when I hear a frantic flapping and squeaking behind me. Somehow they both had found the nerve to join us. I had planned on setting them on the fence rail or an a branch to watch the other birds, but after enduring my neighbors laughter as I tried to detach various birds from my head, arms, shoulders and every other appendage they could cling to, I finally gave up and just sat right down and explained to them about growing up and moving out...
It was about 75* outside and I was in the sun so I stood up to shed my jacket before I melted completely and the wild flock decided that was way more than they could handle and they exploded up in a flurry. My babies all panicked and bailed out too and began flying in big circles with the wild birds...
IT WAS AWESOME!! I wish I had thought to grab my camera... Hind sight eh? 
Well 3 of my babies took off with the wild ones and 3 came home to their house. I am going to close their door in the evenings to keep them safe from any pigeon eating menace that may wander thru my yard but in the morning when it's nice out I am going to leave the door open and let them decide where to wander if they wish. 
I will watch for them of course and I do hope the babies will manage alright on their own. How anti-climax this has been, I feel like somethings missing like fanfare or ballons. Ha!

The little dove isn't feeling very good tonight. I was afraid it was going too smoothly. I gave it some water and I noticed the cloth was very wet beneath the dove ... It looks like the dove has un stitched the bottom of the tear where my sewing job ended... Somehow the bird managed to pull at the stitches beneath a bib wrapping and the bottom of the tear into the crop was opened enough to leak everything the little guy had managed to consume, out.
I hate to keep poking more holes into the little guys already ripped skin so I opted to butterfly the bottom of the tear this time. I left the upper tear alone. The stitches looked a little irritated but fine in general... Fingers crossed... I feel sad that this little dove must be in such pain, but I do not have any knowledge of avian pain relievers existing... I do not dabble into medical areas I am not familiar with. My schooling unfortunately was focused on Equine Medicine, who would have thought I would wind up caring for birds AND horses.... another case of hind-sight and lack of planning on my part....

<sigh> Well with help from you folks, I expect things will turn out ok...
Thanks again Phil for the wonderful detailed experience with your birds release... How encouraging for my own flocks success!

AR Rebeccah


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Rebeccah, 


Oh my...! Lol...

Well...their release was more abbreviated then anyone would have expected with the Flock ascending so soon...!

The left-behinds will get their adventures tomorrow I quess...

My own 'rleases' tend to be one or two at-a-time...and here you had almost a small flock TO release...!

Yes, next time, "pictures"...!

Now you will be cultivating that Flock as the resource for releasing youngsters to...good for them and for the future in many ways.


Hmmmm...your little Dove...

I have not done any suturing, but I aspire to learn.

In your situatiuon, the Crop itself is one suturing, and the skin outside another...yes?

I mean, the crop is a seperate interior organ's "skin" inside of the Bird's outer Skin?

so...if there is a leaking, the leaking will also be going into the spaces between and below the Crop proper, interior to the outer feathered Skin...and...if I understand this right, there may be dangers of infection resulting from contamination happening in these spaces, from bacteria in the food or liquid, so...does one then consider to open up the outer Skin sutures and somehow flush with saline or flush the interior somehow, to then adminster some mild antibiotics and, to then ensure that the sutures of the Crop proper are made secure, to then finish up with the (secondary) outside Skin?

I would not worry about pain for something like this.

I have seen the most ghastly and severe injuries with Pigeons and Doves and I never had any recourse to administer any kind of pain-reliever to them, and I will say, they all, allways, did fine with it. Sometimes when years ago I did have a helpful Vet I could call on, there were suturings, sometimes 30 stitches or so even, with no anaesthetic.

I do not in any way feel callous or insensitive to the presence of what we all know must be their pain of various injuries, but I do believe they have a better and higher order of interior discipline or proprioception or cellular 'Intelligence' than we find in most people, to deal with it well. I have seen severely injured Birds soon preening and bright eyed with injuries that almost any person would have found completely debilitating from the pain. I know they feel pain to the most minute level even, but I am certain they regulate their compromise with it in a manner different than we tend to project or imagine from our own experiences.

Anyway...it may also be worth a thought that pain relievers may load or compromise their liver or kidneys in ways which may present compromise or liabilities to them in addressing the actual injury or debility at hand...I do not know, but I would imagine this to be a question worth finding out about or considering.

I will say, I will never consent to a global anaesthesia ever again, for any Bird who is to be undergoing some sort of proceedure, or stitches, since every time I did do so the Bird died soon after, and those times I did not conceed or acquiese, the Bird survived nicely. 


I believe from my past experiences, that the use of anaesthesias have been the resort not for the sake of the comfort of the patient, except as an incidental, but, for the logistical ease of the surgical operatives in managing them in proceedures. Hence, when it tends more often than not to appear to contribute to the demise of the patient some hours later, I do not feel that the comfort of the operatives to be the most salient consideration..this, as just a digression about 'pain'...a thinking aloud for a moment...

They can be "wiggle worms" - I know...! yeeeeesh can they be Wiggle-Worms, too..


Now, 'Super Glue' I hear has found favor as a sometimes alternative to sutures for some things...and, would be imagined in it's non-invasive nature, to be painless in itself, compared to the punctures and subsequent tensions of sutures. I do not know anything about how it would be assimilated for interior sutures, but have heard of it being used for Skin anyway...

Anyway, the pain of your little dove patient, for now, I would think is not the central worry, but, rather, is something they will handle well enough according to the visceral-neorological economy and wisdom of their kind...

While the central concern may be the possibility of inflammation or infection from bacteria, internally, in the interstices below their Crop, from the fluids of their Crop having leaked.

I do not know their physiology very well at all...so, maybe I do not have this right in my imagining...but those were my thoughts...


Good going...!

Best of luck and good wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

Hello Phil,
I am sad to say the dove did not make it thru the night. I do believe you are correct about the anatomy of the dove's body. It may have been better to attempt to sew the crop, itself, and then sew the outer skin seperate. IF I were a surgeon and had the instruments to suture little tiny, delicate structures.....
Now in reality, I am a horse person and I have had YEARS of experience dealing with Equine injuries and treatments. I am set-up to work on large animals... Never thought about someday needing to know all about birds and their internal workings. I am really muddling thru each situation as best I can. In my area, the only Vets who will consider treating birds will not consider working on any "Nuisance" wildlife. Believe me... I tried every Vet I know and all the rest that I didn't know... I was desperate to do SOMETHING to try and help this little guy... Initially it seemed to be working but, ultimately, I failed... I feel badly enough for causing the little guy even more pain and torment than if I had just used my head and put it down at once....  
To my eye, the birds crop and outer skin seemed fused into one layer. I could not find seperate edges to sew the crop and then the outer skin together. I worked very carefully to clean the wound and the internal structure that I was trying to repair. I, too, was hoping to avoid contamination between layers. Well, what's done is done now and I can't fix it any further. My soft heart just felt so badly for the little life being wasted if I had not at least tried something. I'll tell you what... It isn't a fun thing to do in the first place, I do not recommend attempting this if you are in the least bit faint of heart... There was only a small amount of blood, and a lot of squeaking and wriggling, understandably, but once I had the dove "burrito'd" properly it just seemed to accept everything I was doing and it quit complaining. Then it was fairly quick and I was able to align the edges and baste them together again, I felt, very well... 
Addressing the issue on pain, I agree with you and I seldom worry much about physical pain as it will pass fairly soon. Medicating for pain makes the pain linger for twice the time it would normally. I think all creatures are alloted a certain level of pain they can endure and that's it. It doesn't exceed the level they/we can take... I've never known of anyone dying from too much pain. 
I have had a horse kick me in the neck, the chest (broke 3 ribs in 2 places), I have had my leg crushed and a knee replacement surgery done almost 17 years ago now and my back was broken when I got thrown into a huge jump I was schooling over. I never hurt any worse without pain meds as I did when I took them. They just numb your ability to process pain... You just think you feel better but it's still there.... Pain meds make you sleepy and stoned so you don't care to push yourself harder until the wound has had a chance to heal some. 
I think most people take pain meds as a Placebo whether or not they realize it. If that's what it takes to keep people leading productive lives then by all means they SHOULD take meds, but when people are searching for that stoned acceptance feeling then we are opening a whole different issue.
Animals, as adults, don't really voice their discomfort because it makes them vulnerable. Babies holler like mad to get help from their protectors. Once they are safe they too settle into a zen-like acceptance of their situation. Just watch the Animal Channel to be a witness to that statement... We all have cringed as Hyenas capture and consume a baby critter while the parent circles about helplessly... 
That's the emotion I was having as I was trying to help the dove, helpless circling, wanting to save a life but powerless to change the outcome...
Well the other dove chick is bright and happy, perching on my finger and nibbling on my shirt sleeve... It seems to be suffering no loss after losing it's sibling. I can't get over how tiny doves are compared to Pigeons of the same age.... little minature squeakers!
No sign of the feral birds or my recent releases yet... I am keeping an eye open for them. My other babies haven't yet poked their beaks outside of their home even though the door is open.... silly chickens lol!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry the little baby didn't make.
You did everything you could and you did great.
There is no guarantee that even a vet could have saved her.

Hope your ferals come back soon.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Avianrescue, 

I will amble amid the writ a little...



AvianRescue said:


> Hello Phil,
> I am sad to say the dove did not make it thru the night. I do believe you are correct about the anatomy of the dove's body. It may have been better to attempt to sew the crop, itself, and then sew the outer skin seperate.
> 
> 
> ...




...do you put our lots of Seeds every day? They will learn the drill if you do, and be regular to it in their sequence of places they graze...


Anyway, please accept your good effort positively with the little Dove.
There may also have been ancillary injuries internally which occasioned or confluenced to occasion their expiration, independant of the issue of their Crop, and about which you could have done nothing anyway.

For all we know, your work with their Crop was fine, or good enough in every way, and had nothing whatever to do with why they died.

Either way, this was an important milestone, and you now have some experience in these little sewings...an important step.


Till next! 

I say, "Good Going! You did well..."

...and best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AvianRescue (Mar 14, 2005)

*Moving right along....*

Greetings fellow fanciers,
I am stopping back in to brag about my babies soft release being successful so far. They have taken up with a large group of Ferals and they travel all around town with them. That is all but number 14. I banded them with some very nice bright pink (  ) bands that have very easy to see numbers on them. 
I thought it would be interesting to be able to keep a record of the pigeons and their sightings after being released. So far number 14 comes home every night and sleeps just under the eaves of the loft he lived in. A Homer to the core. LOL. He doesn't want in and he doesn't beg to be fed, I have food available for anyone who might stop in and visit anyway... He just seems to have decided he lives here, a loner it would appear.
The loft currently houses several (6) Mourning doves and 3 Pygmy ground doves and one newly weaned pigeon. The doves are all scared silly of the maverick pigeon and they frantically throw themselves against the screen walls until feathers fly... I am concerned about this panic moulting as it is resulting in a couple of my doves sporting naked necks and breasts.
This may end up delaying the projected release of the doves for obvious reasons... They need to have feathers... "Headdeskheaddesk" 
I have grown very fond of raising baby doves, they are so delicate and they seem so much brighter than pigeon babies of the same age. I have an unreleasable Pygmy Ground dove who is just beginning to peck at seeds, living with me in the house. She follows my every movement, even braving a shower to keep me in sight. She grooms me and I almost don't dare say, seems to have learned to potty on one certain hand towel that I keep spread out in a "close to us" area. She actually will flutter off suddenly and land on the towel, poop and flap or scurry back to cuddle next to me. 
The poor little dove can not be released due to having been attacked by crows in the nest. Her eye was actually pulled from it's socket and I believe she is quite blind in that eye now. The eye was returned successfully and stitched shut for a few days to heal, but the nerve had to have been damaged. Instead of being overly timid, she is actually very brave when something takes her by surprise. All 3 of my Toy Fox Terriers are petrified of her and right now shes having a staredown with my fish, who happen to be minding their own business in their tank. 

Has anyone else dealt with Pygmys before? Is this typical for them? It is very entertaining to watch her mimic my husband and sons movements, I can't wait to hear from others who have raised doves... This has certainly been a learning experience for me...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Never had Pygmys, I am not sure even what they look like.
Sounds fun to have them around though.

You did such a fantastic job with your pigeon babies. Thank you for the great update. The baby which keeps on returning sounds so cute. I guess s/he will bring her mate along some day.
That's what my Andrew did.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AvianRescue,


Oh! Wonderful tales..!  

I hve much less experience with Doves than with Pigeons, and only some experience with yougsters and none with raising truely infant ones.

But, I have made it my practice, with any older juveniles or adults, to line the Cage Top with the roughly one-inch 'Egg-Crate' pattern of soft, foam Rubber, since the Doves I have had were not merely liable to be skittish, but, to launch themselves 'up' with such velocity as to have sometimes knocked themselves out 'cold' from hitting the inside top of their Cage. (In my case, these Cages are ones I built, variously, and often in haste, whose sides are one or another kind of screen or small-sqaure weave of Poultry Wire, with plywood tops and bottoms...)

I have had some Doves, Juveniles allways, be entirely sociable and calm, but mostly, as adults, they are very, very sensitive and easily frightened. All ferae rescues of course, so it is not as if they were raised by me! Lol...

Can you post some images of your 'pigmys'?

I have never seen one to know what they may look like...


Nice to see you 'back' again!

"Happy Spring!"

Phil
Las Vegas


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