# Bird flu



## Buddy (Sep 7, 2005)

Hi everyone,

The bird flu is now in Greece, Romania and Turkey, so today me and my family had the flu jab so that we don't have the influenza AND bird flu when it arrives. I have quarantined Buddy, and she has not been allowed in for about five days, I still feed her outside and wash my hands when I'm finished. I really hope other people have the flu jab to prevent the flu from mutating, because if it does that, then another 21,500,000 people will most probably die like back in 1918-1919 when the bird flu mutated last 

Buddy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well we are still safe at this time. BUT I will probably get my flu shot next week when I go to my doctors app, As its that time of year agin for it. If we get lucky as its starting to look they may just find a vaccine befor it mutates over to person to person.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

**I really hope other people have the flu jab to prevent the flu from mutating, because if it does that, then another 25,000,000 people will most probably die like back in 1917-1918 when the bird flu mutated last


Thanks for that, Buddy, I had no idea that the 1917-1918 epidemic was bird flu related.


**If we get lucky as its starting to look they may just find a vaccine befor it mutates over to person to person. 

Robert, could you elaborate on that comment??

Thanks,

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Buddy said:


> I really hope other people have the flu jab to prevent the flu from mutating, because if it does that, then another 25,000,000 people will most probably die like back in 1917-1918 when the bird flu mutated last
> Buddy


I saw where they are actually using tissue samples that were taken during that time, from soldiers that died during that time (not from the war) from that flu. They are studying this 1917 strain to see if it will help learn more about this current strain, as the one back then also started out in birds.


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## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

Hello,
I hope everyone realizes that getting the flu shot this year will not protect you from the bird flu if it mutates and goes human to human. They are developing a vaccine for the current bird to person flu that is so lethal in hopes of slowing this thing down. Getting this years flu shot isn't going to help stop it from mutating either--there is a thought that keeping the influenza down may slow it from combining with the human strain but this is only a thought. The virus actually shows ability to recombine on its own. Also, no need to quarantine your birds on this continent yet--let them fly while they can, I say. It could take anywhere from a few months to a year before it gets to the birds here. Hopefully, by that time we can get the vaccine for our birds (which they have apparently in some quanities). There is so much mis-information out there right now since the media has taken interest--it drives us medical people nuts!!!


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## Buddy (Sep 7, 2005)

Hi bartuska,

Yes I am aware that the influenza vaccine does not protect you against the bird flu (the doctor told us as well), but apparently if you have the flu and the bird flu at the same time, that will provide the catalyst for mutation, the more people with the vaccine the less chance the bird flu will have to mutate. I actually found out about the 1918-1919 pandemic through the guiness book of world records, it was the worst influenza epidemic in history, here is the actual quote from the book: "Between 1918 and 1919, 21,640,000 people died worldwide of influenza, the epidemic originated from birds and was spread by coughing and sneezing." More people will probably die than back then if it mutates, because there is way more people in the world nowadays.

Buddy


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Sometimes, just Panic alone can do more damage than the source of the problem. Because of the Katrina incident, the politicians are being forced into acting unneccesarily. Here is an article that may calm your fears about your pigeons. As it states, not only can they not get this bird flu, they cannot be carriers either.
groups.yahoo.com/group/ALLIOWAPIGEONS/message/2438
Gary H.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Gary,

It appears you have to be a member of the group in order to access the message. Could you just copy and paste the info here?

Terry


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Avian Influenza
IN PIGEONS
Due to the recent outbreak of Avian Influenza in Belgium and its disastrous
consequences for the poultry-breeding industry, very strict
prevention measures were taken. Because pigeons too legally belong to this
category, these severe measures apply to them as well.
However, without criticizing the responsible authorities since it is not an easy
problem to solve, these strict rules are not reasonable for homing
pigeons. It is the first time that Belgium is confronted with an IA outbreak
like this. In the twenties there were outbreaks of classical fowl plague
worldwide. Since that time there were no more large scale economical losses due
to the outbreak of classical fowl plague, with the exception of
an outbreak in the early eighties in the USA (Pennsylvania 1983) and in Ireland
in 1984 (reference course for industrial poultry diseases by
Professor Dr R Ducatelle). There was another outbreak in the USA in 1993. This
however does not keep us from learning from the American
situations and draw the necessary conclusions from them. In the introduction, AI
is briefly explained. This is necessary to comprehend the rest
of the file.
Introduction:
The avian influenza virus belongs to the family of the orthomyxoviridae. This
name contains the word myxa = mucus. These viruses mainly
target mucoproteins in the mucosa of the bronchial tubes. This family consists
of the influenza viruses. There is only one genus: the Genus
Influenzavirus. This family is subdivided in three sero-types; A, B and C.
Influenza A viruses infect humans, horses, pigs and fowl (ducks, chicken,
turkeys, guinea fowl and several other wild birds). It is the Influenza
A virus that causes avian influenza with chickens. Interspecies transfer of the
virus from humans on to pigs frequently occurs, the opposite is
less frequent (virology, Professor Dr Pensaert, State University of Ghent
Belgium). Especially influenza with waterfowl is of important
epidemiological meaning. Wild ducks are believed to be particularly important
virus reservoirs. In the pathogenesis humans could be an
important passive carrier in the spread of the virus (by means of contaminated
clothing or shoes). Animals infect each other via airborne
contact or via their excreta (faeces). Infection is systematic and the virus is
usually spread through respiratory secretions (industrial poultry
diseases by Professor Dr R Ducatelle). The most obvious symptoms in a clinical
outbreak are respiratory or nervous system diseases and a high
mortality rate. Furthermore a drop in egg production may occur. The virus can be
diagnosed in several ways: First of all there will be the
autopsy, because the virus causes injuries like pin-point haemorrhages in the
bronchial tubes, stomach and intestines.
Secondly there is an ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immuno Sorbent Assay) test, virus
isolation using a swab is possible, or an immunofluorescent test
can be carried out. Serological diagnosis through blood samples and the
determination of antibody titre are also possibilities. In this last test at
least two blood samples should be used (industrial poultry diseases by Prof Dr R
Ducatelle, State University of Ghent Belgium).
Pigeons susceptible to AI?
.A lot of scientific research has been carried out to test the susceptibility of
homing pigeons to A.I. (Panigraphy, Senne Pedersen; Shafer
Pearson, May 1995). The outcome of this research in literal translation: The
research indicated that pigeons inoculated with both the highly
pathogenic as well as the low pathogenic strain of the avian influenza virus
through the eyes, nose and straight into the blood stream stayed
healthy, did not shed virus nor did they develop a detectable antibody titre to
AI. It was therefore decided that pigeons under the research
conditions are RESISTANT to an infection with avian influenza.
This study however is not the only one. Pathogenity of highly pathogenic avian
influenza strain H5N1 of Hong Kong origin was also tested on
pigeons by Perkins and Swayne in January 2002. Here too the conclusion was that
pigeons were non-susceptible, even to this highly
pathogenic strain. It is important to mention that researchers also tried to
infect pigeons, with the highly pathogenic H5N2 influenza virus that
caused major problems in Pennsylvania, but without results (M Burgh M A, C W
Breard USDA, Athens Georgia). Furthermore blood samples of
as much as 160 pigeons from the quarantine zone were taken during the '93
outbreak in the U.S.A. None of them tested positive. Even in 1968
Wilson and Lange already did some experiments to try to infect pigeons with the
AI virus, however also without success. In 1969 Narayan et al
(Canada) tested on pigeons. He too tried to infect pigeons with the virus
without result.
Pigeons spreading the AI virus?
To verify whether free flying pigeons could possibly play a role in he spread of
the virus, it is important to check the possible ways of
transmission.
1. Pigeons have the disease and spread it: As explained above and proved by
numerous scientific studies, pigeons are non-susceptible to the
virus and so they cannot spread it in such a way.
2. Pigeons are carriers and secrete the virus without being ill, and they spread
the virus in such a way: In the study 'Susceptibility of pigeons to
avian influenza' it has been clearly proved that pigeons, who were contaminated
with as much as 100.000 viruses without causing disease, did
not produce the virus. This was tested 7, 14 and 21 days after the
inoculation. Pigeons therefore do not secrete the virus and cannot spread the
disease in this manner. A very interesting study was carried out
by Narayan in Canada already in 1969. Pigeons were infected with the virus
through the blood and the nose and then placed in lofts together
with turkeys. Not only the pigeons stayed healthy, also the turkeys did not show
any symptom of the disease. There clearly was no
transmission from the pigeons to the turkeys.
3. Pigeons acting as a vector in the outbreak: When we look at the possible
vectors in the outbreak of influenza viruses, there is a number of
possibilities. Humans,vermin (flies, mosquitos), air, vehicles, birds (including
pigeons) etc. As described above already, humans are considered
to be the largest vector (through contaminated hands and shoes) in the spread of
influenza (Professor Ducatelle, industrial poultry diseases).
The research on the role of wild birds and rodents in the spread of the A.I.
virus has been of great value. This study was carried out in
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Virginia, where as much as 4,132 birds
and rodents from the buffer zone were caught and tested for
the virus. Among them 473 pigeons. None of the tested animals proved to be
infected by the virus.
These are convincing figures. A similar study was done in Virginia, where 313
birds from the immediate vicinity of contaminated companies were
caught and tested. Here too 50 pigeons were among the tested birds, and all of
them tested negative (enclosure D page 4). The same trend
can be seen in the results of a test that was done in the USA in '93, where 160
pigeons from a buffer zone were all negative. Referring to the
above-mentioned test by Narayan from Canada, who inoculated pigeons with the
virus and put them in the same room with turkeys, it can be
concluded that these pigeons must have certainly been a vector and nevertheless
none of the turkeys became ill!!! I think it is obvious that it
has been proved by all these tests that the role of pigeons as a vector in the
spread of the AI virus is very little, if not non-existing!
Conclusion: When we look at all these studies and evaluate them thoroughly, it
is obvious that pigeons play no significant role in the avian
influenza disease or even in the spread of it. It is therefore morally and
scientifically unjustified to impose such heavy sanctions on this sector.
As far as avian influenza is concerned, pigeons clearly do not belong to the
poultry category, and all these restrictions are absolutely useless.
To me it seems obvious that, following the American example, pigeons should be
taken out of this category and freed from the restrictions.
I would like to inform you of the situation and warn you for the fact that this
problem could occur in your country tomorrow. It is therefore
important that your pigeon Unions discusses these problems with the government
now, to be prepared for the future.
Rudi Hendrikx, Veterinarian


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for posting this information, Gary. Very informative and encouraging as to the safety of our beloved pigeons as least as related to the actual virus. 

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Yes, thanks, Gary! I'm going to print this, then casually bring up the topic to a neighbor and offer it to them to read. Maybe it will help to get the truth out and build a buffer zone of people who know these birds aren't a danger.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Many thanks, Gary. maggie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

They are saying getting a flu shot would help by a person that may get the new flu it would not mutate to a new strain by not haveing an active flu going on at the time a person would get the new type. So its a precaiont measure to look at. Also noticed the flue is spreadin now to other countries. And they are think it will spread to countries not able to control its spread. There it coiuld mutate over. Such as africa. We will just need to watch the spread. The poultry world is going to take a big hard hit at some time it looks like to me .


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## Buddy (Sep 7, 2005)

Hi everyone,

Just to let everybody know that pigeons CAN carry the virus, the flu affects all bird species, that is why the pigeons in trafalger square were sent away because of the bird flu. Lets just say that pigeons can't get the virus, they can still carry it if they stand in other infected bird poop, or if they drink from the same water as an infected bird. The risk is too high to say that pigeons are the only exception to the bird flu, I love Buddy, but because all wild birds can get this flu, I am not willing to take the risk that Buddy will NOT catch the avian flu, I would never forgive myself if any of my family were to die because of my incompetance. Isn't it funny, that we can catch the bird flu off birds, but pigeons can't catch it off other birds (or so people claim)? that seems to be too much of a coincidence, we all need to be responsible for our actions, if I have to put Buddy in quarantine to minimalise our chances of contracting this flu, then so be it 

Buddy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Buddy,
I found this 'updated' article yesterday regarding the avian flu. 
I have posted it in the 'Pigeon Daily' forum under the 'news' section. 
I'm hopeful that it will help to ease our minds a bit, while we continue to monitor the situation. 

Here is the link to the article:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12438 

Cindy


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

*Trafalgar Square*



Buddy said:


> _
> Just to let everybody know that pigeons CAN carry the virus, the flu affects all bird species, that is why the pigeons in trafalger square were sent away because of the bird flu._
> Buddy


Buddy I'm confused.

You mention the birds in Trafalgar Square were sent away - well a) I don't know how they can do that becase there are so many and the Mayor of London tried to "starve" them out about 2 years ago( don't worry - it didn't work) to make them stay away because b) I went up to London about 3 days ago and there must have been several hundred pigeons in Trafalgar Square. They can't just send them away - its impossible to do apart from destruction and I don't see that happening.

Where did you get your info from?

Tania


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## mainesgem (Sep 12, 2005)

*Just Curious*

If the bird flu can mutate to infect humans and spread from human to human contact. Can't the virus mutate somehow to affect and infect pigeons and start pigeon to pigeon transmission? Or pigeon to human transmission? Or pigeon to chicken transmission?

Just curious. Does anyone have insight in this thought?

Thanks,
Jenny.


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## Buddy (Sep 7, 2005)

Pigeons are already at risk of catching the virus, it's just the concern of the virus mutating so it spreads from human to human. I got my information kittypaws, from a BBC documentary about six months ago, thats why it's illegal to feed the birds in trafalger square or anywhere else in London, they want to starve the pigeons out so they will go elsewhere, but because they have been fed at the square for such a long time, they will continue to visit. 

I am sorry about the hurricane that hit Florida, I hope there was not much damage.

Buddy


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Ok, I live in Australia, and I just finished talking to friends and relatives about the higher resistance of pigeons to 'bird flu' than other poultry type birds. Then comes the panic news reports about 'bird flu' coming to our shores in pigeons and the like. Geez thanks media, you sure know how to get people panicked!!

Here is another article about what happened here in AU with the pigeons:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SYD68806.htm
Heres the important bits:

And I quote:
'All the birds were tested on arrival and three were found to have avian influenza antibodies, but did not test positive for the H5N1 strain or any other avian influenza virus.
Four other birds tested positive for Newcastle Disease antibodies. Newcastle Disease is also a highly contagious viral disease in poultry, cage and aviary birds and wild birds.'

So the pigeons had antibodies, meaning at some stage they had a bird flu 'but did not test positive for the H5N1 strain or any other'. So they didn't even have flu, just antibodies to fight flu, and the antibodies they had weren't even for the H5N1 strain.

The more pressing reason why these birds were destroyed was because four tested positive to Newcastle Disease (we don't have that here in Australia).

Shows you how the media can blow up a story to get great ratings.
Unfortunately this kind of exageration is not helping us bird owners from the 'fear'virus spreading around.

Regards
Alaska


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I saw on the news today that the bird flu had spread to Croatia and they were destroying flocks of chickens.

maggie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

They have 2 people that have come down with it now. And they expect birds to maybe migrate over to Alaska. and then down to the U S next year. We will just have to see.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Buddy -- do you have any scientific articles to back up that statement? Because I've seen a list of articles -- studies from more than one source - stating the exact opposite. Pigeons can develop antibodies to the "bird flu" if they are exposed to it -- but they do not develop the disease, nor do they spread it (they are NOT carriers....)

The "bird flu" that can be transmitted to humans is ONE specific virus out of many many 'flu' viruses. NOT the one that the birds in Australia had antibodies for, as has already been mentioned.

Yes, if viruses can mutate (and obviously they can), then at some point in time, our birds might be at risk. BUT THEY ARE NOT RIGHT NOW. What should we do? Kill everything with feathers in the world, because they MIGHT get a mutated virus? Then all the pigs should be killed as well - since they carry this. Cats too..... this virus is killing cats in Asia.

Alaska -- you're right, the media takes stories and runs with them -- often without getting all the facts first. I've been involved with a group at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto for years -- about 10 years ago, the media got ahold of a story and ran it -- pretty much saying that every child who had heart surgery there in the early 80's was going to die of AIDS. As I was part of the group - we knew the WHOLE story - and were, with the Hosptital, about to contact parents privately regarding concerns about HIV/blood transfusions during heart surgery. Someone "leaked" something to the press -- and the result was unnecessary panic and heartache for parents. We spent weeks trying to correct the situation, and do 'mop up' for parents who had been freaked out, without just cause. That's just one of the examples of "media panic" that I've experienced over the years -- there are many more....

Unfortunately, when it comes to light that something is not as bad as first reported -- THAT news gets buried somewhere in the middle of the papers - not on the front page. So people's perception remains the same -- "OH NO! - kill all pigeons - before they kill us!"

btw... my husband read on a pigeon list yesterday that the ban of Canadian birds in Australia has been lifted already. So much for public panic and concern. Want to make a bet that of 100 people who read about the "sick birds" -- only 1 of them ever hears that there was no problem at all?


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## mainesgem (Sep 12, 2005)

*Thanks for the info and an article about the Birdie flu*

Thanks "Whitewings" for the info. It's all coming in a little clearer now.
I agree about the cats. I was just about to type that until I read your post. Are we going to kill EVERY living creature that has the potential to carry the bird flu? Let's hope not. 

I figure, at this point, if the birdie flu spreads from human to human and people start dropping-I will try my best to keep my family safe from it. Including killing whatever animal I have to - to keep my kids safe. I highly doubt it will get to that point though.

What I am more concerned about is human to human xmission. But I am not gonna go live in a Cave. So, I am not going to worry about it. Because we are all in God's hands (I call Him Jesus-you may call him allah, or buddah, or who ever) and only He will allow what happens or who drops. I am not gonna spend my time worrying about it-I am just going to have faith that whatever happens-is for the best.

Jenny.

-------------
Here's an article about the bird flu from our friends in the media. 

Here's the link (and the actual article itself.)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2005102...HqTvyIi;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

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Indonesia, puzzled over bird flu cases, investigates cats as spreaders 2 hours, 25 minutes ago



JAKARTA (AFP) - Indonesia's human bird flu outbreak is puzzling experts because several victims do not work or live around poultry, prompting an investigation into whether other animal hosts, perhaps cats, are to blame for the disease's spread. 


The World Health Organization (WHO) says the lethal H5N1 strain of bird flu that has killed more than 60 people in Southeast Asia since late 2003 is mostly transmitted to humans through direct contact with infected birds or their droppings.

But Indonesian Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari has said there is so far no evidence of most of the country's victims catching the virus through close contact with, or eating the meat of, infected birds.

"We can only suspect that those infected, contracted the virus through the droppings or contact with the saliva of infected birds or fowl," said Suyono, from the health ministry's bird flu department.

Only the latest confirmed bird flu death, a young man from nearby Bogor who died in hospital in September but was only confirmed as a bird flu death this week, had been staying in a house where several chickens had died of suspected bird flu.

Suyono says it is a mystery how several other people confirmed to have bird flu in Indonesia -- three of whom have also died -- contracted H5N1 when they lived in and around urban Jakarta, far from a chicken or poultry farm.

Indonesia has recorded seven confirmed cases of bird flu, with 28 others being investigated, including nine suspicious deaths, since July, according to the WHO.

"Worldwide, more than 80 percent of infections can be traced back to contact with poultry," said Indonesia's WHO representative Georg Petersen, saying the body was not yet concerned that animals such as cats may be spreading the disease.

"In some countries, there have been reports of animals such as tigers and cats being infected just as with pigs, but so far we have no report of anyone contracting the virus from animals other than poultry,"

"There is so far no indication that animals other than poultry or pig are sources of infections for humans.

"Studies are welcome, we certainly need to know more but I think it is not something that is important at this point in time."

I Wayan Teguh Wibawan, from the Bogor Institute of Agriculture, said the data on human infection in Indonesia was "puzzling".

"We have suspected cases in isolated areas, far from any potential sources of contamination such as poultry or pig farms, and on the other hand, we have almost no suspected human infection cases among workers in the poultry industries, including those hit by the bird flu."

The obvious exception was the first Indonesian to test positive for bird flu in June. The poultry farmer from South Sulawesi province has remained healthy and since showed no symptoms of the disease.

Chaerul Nidom, a bird flu expert from Airlangga University in Surabaya, East Java, suspects that other animals might be carrying the virus and transmitting it to humans while showing no ill effects from infection themselves.

"I believe that there is the factor of another animal as a source of infection," Nidom said, pointing his finger at cats, dogs, hamsters, rats and even mice as possible vectors.

"The most likely candidates are cats," he said, citing research in Thailand where infections were last year found in domestic cats, though with no evidence it was in turn being passed on to humans.

The Bogor Institute's Wibawan also said cats could be a possible source of secondary infection, but cautioned that studies of felines and their possible role in the spread of avian flu were only beginning in Indonesia. 

Other experts suggested the reason bird flu infections in Indonesia could not be linked clearly to close contact with infected poultry because monitoring the poultry industry in the vast archipelago is problematic. 

"Chickens continue to die of the disease here and there, but farmers are reluctant to report them and the government certainly does not have the capability to monitor everything," said Marthen Malole, a retired lecturer in veterinary sciences from the Bogor Institute. 

Experts fear a pandemic that could kill millions across the globe if H5N1 acquires genetic material from a human influenza virus and becomes easily transmittable from human to human.


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## mainesgem (Sep 12, 2005)

*P.s......*

Does anyone remember Y2K??????????????????????????
-Jenny


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

mainesgem said:


> Does anyone remember Y2K??????????????????????????
> -Jenny





LMAO! ! ! ! !  

oh yes, only too well..... I've kept the "booklets for survival" that were published, just to remember how easily people panic.  


_What I am more concerned about is human to human xmission. But I am not gonna go live in a Cave. So, I am not going to worry about it. Because we are all in God's hands (I call Him Jesus-you may call him allah, or buddah, or who ever) and only He will allow what happens or who drops. I am not gonna spend my time worrying about it-I am just going to have faith that whatever happens-is for the best._



no kidding -- thanks Jenny, for such a refreshing outlook -- it's one I share ! I look out for myself and my kids -- we get our annual flu shots each year, and any other vaccines that are necessary for health -- we eat right, don't smoke or allow anyone to do so in our home, etc..... and for the rest of it --- what happens will happen - if I can't stop it/avoid it -- I'm not going to stress (too much) over it. I worry about the things I can control -- and leave the rest to the fates....


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

mainesgem said:


> Does anyone remember Y2K??????????????????????????
> -Jenny


Yes, I remember people stocking up on survival type of foods and vitamin supplements and stuff. 

I got extra bottles of colloidal silver from my sister-in-law, after it was all over.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

There is a very excellent website that was created and maintained during the Exotic Newcastle Disease epidemic here in California a couple of years ago. There is a huge amount of information regarding biosecurity that would be applicable in the case of avian flu that may be helpful to all who keep birds: http://www.cocka2.com/newcastle/

Having been here and gone through that, I shudder to think what could happen if/when avian flu makes it here.

Terry


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

please please please remember!

the news is selling a story. the truth does not always sell well. 

(even the history channel contains alot of BS)


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