# Grizzle right?



## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

what color is this?


















the parent


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## lance_harmon (Oct 18, 2008)

*Dunn Grizzle*

Looks like it could be dilute black grizzle?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Brown spread grizzle. This baby will be a hen.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Brown spread grizzle. This baby will be a hen.


becky y you said hen?...sexlink?


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Brown spread grizzle. This baby will be a hen.


spread? how do you tell?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I also vote brown instead of dilute, and definitely is a grizzle. 

I am not so sure about the spread. Since the one parent was a spread grizzle, this youngster could be spread, but I don't think we have proof yet, the tail is too short to be sure whether there will be a tail bar or not. Though the almost solid flights are also an indicator of spread grizzle.


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## vangimage (Aug 15, 2010)

Grizzle it is.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I can't see a tailbar. Unles it just hasn't come in yet. I didn't even notice the length of it, LOL. It just LOOKS spread to me. Could be a t-pattern. Or anything really. But I'm thinking it is a homozygous grizzle. Has a good amount of white on it already, especially if it does turn out to be spread or velvet (het grizzles on those are usually quite dark). Could moult into some more white. It would work out as both parents are grizzles, but they are both het grizzles...so, that means this pair can throw homozygous grizzles, het grizzles, and non-grizzles.

And yes, it's a hen because brown is recessive. The blue from the mom would dominate it in the sons, so the only place it has room to show itself is in some of the daughters.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I can't see a tailbar. Unles it just hasn't come in yet. I didn't even notice the length of it, LOL. It just LOOKS spread to me. Could be a t-pattern. Or anything really. But I'm thinking it is a homozygous grizzle. Has a good amount of white on it already, especially if it does turn out to be spread or velvet (het grizzles on those are usually quite dark). Could moult into some more white. It would work out as both parents are grizzles, but they are both het grizzles...so, that means this pair can throw homozygous grizzles, het grizzles, and non-grizzles.
> 
> And yes, it's a hen because brown is recessive. The blue from the mom would dominate it in the sons, so the only place it has room to show itself is in some of the daughters.


so they can kick out non grizzles bird?..cool
becky i see no blue on the hen isn't it black?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Are you talking about the mom of this baby? Is she the black one on the perch?


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Are you talking about the mom of this baby? Is she the black one on the perch?


yea you did say blue right?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

blongboy said:


> yea you did say blue right?


Yeah that's cause I originally thought the black one was the dad, LOL.
But still, black is just spread blue. So it still works the same.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

will i get black baby?


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

yep.. 1 out of 8 if I'm right...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

nzpouter said:


> yep.. 1 out of 8 if I'm right...


Lets break it down (assuming father is homozygous check and mother is homozygous check under the spread). I will also ignore the linkage between the spread and pattern locus for simplicity's sake.

Blue check grizzle cock x blue spread grizzle hen
B+//b s//s G//g+ x B+//- S//s G//g+

Color (sex linked):
1/2 blue hens
1/2 brown hens
all cocks blue (half carrying brown)

Spread (black or brown)
1/2 Non-spread
1/2 Spread

Grizzle:
1/4 Stork marked (homozygous grizzle)
1/2 Grizzle
1/4 Non-grizzle

*Putting this all together we have:*
_Hens_:
1/16 Blue stork marked 
1/16 Brown stork marked 
1/8 Blue check grizzle 
1/8 Brown check grizzle 
1/16 Blue check 
1/16 Brown check 

1/16 Blue spread stork marked (black)
1/16 Brown spread stork stork marked 
1/8 Blue spread grizzle 
1/8 Brown spread grizzle 
1/16 Blue spread (black)
1/16 Brown spread 


_Cocks (half of all split for blue)_:
1/8 Blue stork marked 
1/4 Blue check grizzle
1/8 Blue check

1/8 Blue spread stork marked (black)
1/4 Blue spread grizzle
1/8 Blue spread (black)

Quite a lot of different combinations here aren't there. But as far as plain black goes, 1/8 cocks bred will be pure black self, and 1/16 hens will be pure black self. 

Assuming we have a 50/50 chance of cocks versus hens, we have 3/32 chance of a pure black self youngster.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

shoot... I forgot the 1/16 brown spread... just did 1/4 non griz and 1/2 spread...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

nzpouter said:


> shoot... I forgot the 1/16 brown spread... just did 1/4 non griz and 1/2 spread...


You did great! Speaking informally, I would have said the same, but I like doing the math. I think it helps other people to have examples to follow when they want to do a similar calculation some other time.

I also appreciate that it helps to be sure that I still remember how. I would never know my mistakes, or how much has fallen through the cracks if no one was around to check.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

http://kippenjungle.nl/php/imageplu...mgt=B+/b,s+/s+,G/g+&fgt=B+/-,S/s+,G/g+&flip=Y


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

rudolph.est said:


> Lets break it down (assuming father is homozygous check and mother is homozygous check under the spread). I will also ignore the linkage between the spread and pattern locus for simplicity's sake.
> 
> Blue check grizzle cock x blue spread grizzle hen
> B+//b s//s G//g+ x B+//- S//s G//g+
> ...


thats pretty low percent of full black.....so there are chance i will never get a black


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

blongboy said:


> thats pretty low percent of full black.....so there are chance i will never get a black


The strange thing about chance is that you never know. Last season I bred 2/4 ash-red bar ****. grizzles from an ash-red bar grizzle cock and blue check grizzle hen. The actual odds of an ash-red bar homozygous grizzle is 1/16.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> You did great! Speaking informally, I would have said the same, but I like doing the math. I think it helps other people to have examples to follow when they want to do a similar calculation some other time.
> 
> I also appreciate that it helps to be sure that I still remember how. I would never know my mistakes, or how much has fallen through the cracks if no one was around to check.


I agree...  but, unfortunately.. most of the time I don't have the patience...


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

What breed are the parents?


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

First To Hatch said:


> What breed are the parents?


they are picas.....they are the breed use to make this game
http://www.dreamstime.com/color-pigeon-crowd-thumb2754542.jpg


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

little up date


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Very pretty!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Definitely brown grizzle, I am thinking non spread, since I seem to be able to discern a tail bar, and probably T-pattern (just a guess). If that is the case she will probably be much darker in the shield and neck after the first molt. Might be just bar or check though, in which case the grizzle will probably not darken much more.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

I would call it a "Dun Grizzle"


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

brown grizzle


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> Definitely brown grizzle, I am thinking non spread, since I seem to be able to discern a tail bar, and probably T-pattern (just a guess). If that is the case she will probably be much darker in the shield and neck after the first molt. Might be just bar or check though, in which case the grizzle will probably not darken much more.


I agree, I can barely make out one too. Although sometimes coarse spreads are like that. The grizzle looks like what you'd find on a barred bird. Perhaps smokey has darkened the tail, or maybe it is a t-pattern and just has piebald to help get more white on it. Usually DC grizzles start out much darker than that and do not get much lighter, if any at all.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

Very pretty!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hard to be sure about the pattern, I would think the brown showing on the wing shield is too dark for this to be bar, I would go cheque or most likely T cheque, My vote goes for non spread also


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

blongboy said:


> so they can kick out non grizzles bird?..cool
> 
> 
> I had a thought, We cannot rule out the fact the black may be **** grizzle as spread inhibits the grizzle effect, If this is the case then this pair will not produce non grizzle offspring, The only way to be sure is from breeding.
> ...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Hmm. He definitely doesn't look **** grizzle. It took a couple years for me to get a non grizzle out of one of my pairs. The hen is het grizzle and the cockbird is a blue bar. Almost all of their kids are grizzles, usually one dark (DC like mom) and one lighter (check, which she carries).


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah like I say odds are funny things, You should theoretically get 50% non grizzle from that pairing, I think if breed 20 from this pair - all grizzle I can assume pretty defenitly that he is ****. Just going back though, the black grizzle at the beginning of this forum shows more white than my highflier so just wanted to note that this pair MAY not throw non grizzles.


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