# help



## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

ok the baby fantail pigeon i have been hand raising has been great untill today. I noticed her not talking as much and she was a bit slow. i fed her her usual blend. it is about time to make some new food for her because it started to smell sour today. she did not drink after this mornings feeding. 

yesterday she was starting to fly and was doing great but tonight i found her on the bottom of the cage taking deep breaths.her crop has food but laking water i gave her some in an eyedropper. I notice a blue coloration in the beak and skin. 


If yall know what is wrong. please tell me and if there is anyting i can do to reverse this! please i think she is pretty close.

this was my first attempt at hand-raising. her parents stoped feeding her and fed her sibling instead. a few weeks after i took her in the sibling died.

sice she was so close to independece i have lately taken her into the loft. with the others I never let her drink from the water in the loft though. and she never had physical contact with any of the birds.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Don't feed her any more food until her crop is empty*. When you add food to a crop that already has food in it, the baby can get a bacterial infection.

I don't know what you are feeding her but most of us use Exact hand rearing formula for baby birds. It's very important to only make as much at one time as the baby can eat. the remainder is discarded. What have you been feeding her?

Do you have any canker medications and other antibiotics?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Get her isolated and on heat and a soft surface asap - sounds as if she's in distress - hopefully others will chime in shortly (oops - I see Charis already has) - if you were feeding her formula there should be no need for add'l water. The thing which sounds odd here s that the formula started smelling bad. Hmmm - when handfeeding it's better to make a fresh clean batch at each and every feeding - as opposed to pre-mixing and keeping it. Wet food tends to start going bad before we can actually smell it so. At this point all I can suggest is heat & quiet and hope that she can pass the food currently in her crop. Giving water isn't a bad idea but make sure you don't aspirate her ( a distressed bird can have diffculty taking liquids) and make sure you don't try to give on a full or near-full crop - IMHO.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> it is about time to make some new food for her because it started to smell sour today.


Columba livia, could you please give a little more information about this part of your post. The reason I ask is that when you are hand feeding you must not make more food than you are going to use at each feeding, as it goes bad fast and feeding turned food to a baby is not good, how old was the food?

Is she just having labored breaths, or is she open mouth breathing? In her cage, is there anything that looks like she could have regurgitated (vomited) any food back up? Does her crop feel softish or kinda hard? Has she been passing any droppings, if so what do they look like? Do you have a vet you could get her to in the morning?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

I feed her blended seed and water I used to add a splash of milk when she was younger but swhe has been fine with blended seed. she was stared to eat on her own but she never got enough. lately i have been feeding her less oftten like 12:00 noon ant then 10:00 pm. i have been trying to encourage her to eat the grounded up seed that i have in there on her own. she never did. but since i fed her less often, her crop has always been ready for food. but i wasn't starving her. 


I just saw her poop. pretty much just clear water. all the rest of the poop from today looks normal. this is so random she was fine yesterday. 

she is now in a shoe box with lots of paper towel and under a lamp. thanks yall


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

- if it was bad food and she manages to pass it - is there anything Columba can give her between now and tom'w morning which might improve the situation once her crop is empty ? (lamp is Ok - heating pad's better (on low) if you have one)


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Columba livia, could you please give a little more information about this part of your post. The reason I ask is that when you are hand feeding you must not make more food than you are going to use at each feeding, as it goes bad fast and feeding turned food to a baby is not good, how old was the food?
> 
> Is she just having labored breaths, or is she open mouth breathing? In her cage, is there anything that looks like she could have regurgitated (vomited) any food back up? Does her crop feel softish or kinda hard? Has she been passing any droppings, if so what do they look like? Do you have a vet you could get her to in the morning?
> 
> Karyn


Ok the food was probably 3-4 days old but it was always refrigerated when not in use.

no vomit. just now: watery poop.

tonight her crop was hard when i found her untill i gave her some water.
now its soft. and somewhat full.

she opens her mouth to inhail. eyes closed


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> I feed her blended seed and water I used to add a splash of milk when she was younger but swhe has been fine with blended seed. she was stared to eat on her own but she never got enough. lately i have been feeding her less oftten like 12:00 noon ant then 10:00 pm. i have been trying to encourage her to eat the grounded up seed that i have in there on her own. she never did. but since i fed her less often, her crop has always been ready for food. but i wasn't starving her.
> 
> 
> I just saw her poop. pretty much just clear water. all the rest of the poop from today looks normal. this is so random she was fine yesterday.
> ...


Columba livia, to help you better I need precise answeres to all the questions I asked, please go back to my prior post and answer each one, about describing her breaths (important), how does her crop feel does it have a lot of food in it still, is it hard feeling, plus, how old was the food and how is she?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

she cant stand or walk for now. she can only sit and breath with her eyes closed.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Columba livia! said:


> Ok the food was probably 3-4 days old but it was always refrigerated when not in use.
> 
> no vomit. just now: watery poop.
> 
> ...


you missed this one sorry.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

How old is she? Describe how you feed her. Can you count how many breaths in a minute she is taking?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Dobato said:


> How old is she? Describe how you feed her.


she was born: 1/15/10. i took her in at 2 1/2 weeks old. 

i feed her with a liquid despencer filled with food. but i was about to stop because she was begining to eat on her own.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

about 64 breaths per minute


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Columba livia! said:


> about 64 breaths per minute


you missed this one too.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Get her isolated and on heat and a soft surface asap - sounds as if she's in distress - hopefully others will chime in shortly (oops - I see Charis already has) - if you were feeding her formula there should be no need for add'l water. The thing which sounds odd here s that the formula started smelling bad. Hmmm - when handfeeding it's better to make a fresh clean batch at each and every feeding - as opposed to pre-mixing and keeping it. Wet food tends to start going bad before we can actually smell it so. At this point all I can suggest is heat & quiet and hope that she can pass the food currently in her crop. Giving water isn't a bad idea but make sure you don't aspirate her ( a distressed bird can have diffculty taking liquids) and make sure you don't try to give on a full or near-full crop - IMHO.


thanks for the tips. i appreciate all of them.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> you missed this one too.


This is not good, about twice what they should be.

Columba livia, I will give my best guess of what may be happening. It sounds to me like she has aspirated some of her crop contents which may very likely have been sour, or during the feeding some of this possible sour food was aspirated. To be honest with you she is need emergency intervention right now to help her. She needs to be put in an oxygen cage to start and then into a nebulization unit for inhaled antibiotic treatment to start.

When they get like this there is not a whole lot a lay person can do, they need a professionals help. I don't know if it is a possibility for you, but if she could be taken to an emergency vet clinic they could put her on oxygen until an avian vet could see her. If she survives the night, she needs to be taken ASAP to an avian vet, keep her warm and comfortable. I usually can often more solutions than this, but what she need right now is beyond the things we can sometimes tell people to do at home even if they had some meds around. Do you have any meds around, by the way?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

no meds.. no reasonable vet... but i have prayer.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

thank you for your help dobato. what kind of med would she need? i don't have bird meds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Look, I think she needs quite a bit of help, but at a minimum she would need to get on some anti-biotics, like right now. Do you have any human ones around the house, can you call any family or friends to see if they have a pill or two you could have? I will say a prayer for her as well.

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

thanks i'll look around.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Karyn, would a couple drops of ACV (slightly diluted) help for now?
Kurps


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

I found: Sulfameth/trimethoprm 800/160 tabs from my staff infection. i think. (?)


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

How comes you don't have avian vets in such an important city?


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

"USES: This medication is a combination of two antibiotics used to treat a wide variety of bacterial infections (e.g., middle ear, urine, respiratory and intestinal infections). It is also used to prevent and treat a certain type of pneumonia (pneumocystis-type). This medication should not be used in children less than 2 months of age due to the risk of serious side effects."

Is that for birds?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, post back what you find.

Again, if she survives the night and you can not find any anti-biotic, I very recently helped out on a thread: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/found-injured-pigeon-has-developed-eye-infection-42886.html . This person was in Dallas as well and found the anti-biotics need at a tropical pet store. These same anti-biotics would be ones need to treat your bird. The doxycycline would be preferable over the Maracyn-TC, but the Maracyn-TC would be OK, if you did not look a little harder and find some doxycycline and the API Triple Sulfa, as mentioned in the thread as well.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> I found: Sulfameth/trimethoprm 800/160 tabs from my staff infection. i think. (?)


Yes, this can work, it's a very good drug, let's get her started on it now. Read my other post and if she is still with us tomorrow get the doxycycline or Maracyn-TC to add to the Sulfameth/trimethoprm.

Give me a few minutes while I calculate a dose and mixing instructions for her.



> Karyn, would a couple drops of ACV (slightly diluted) help for now?


If we were just dealing with a sour crop, yes some ACV would be in order, in fact if Columba livia has some ACV around we want to add a bit to the dose to try and move the crop contents along to make sure the meds get into her system.

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

thanks. ill see what happens tonight. thanks everyone. 

im sure there are avian vets in dallas, but i am 16 and broke when it comes to vet bills.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia, do you have any syringes around,, like a 1cc one? Have you given meds to a bird before, if so how did you do it? No, I did not miss it, read my post above.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia, you still here?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

yes i have 1cc. never shot a bird before. but im not sure about this. could i make it worse? are you positive its not just sour crop?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I know someone in Dallas that has medications. I helped him with his first aid kit. If you PM me your number, I will call him in the morning.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia, no we are not going to shoot her up. I am going to instruct you on how to use the pills to crush and make a suspension with to make a med to give to her orally. I personally am unaware of a case where sour crop has brought on sudden onset dyspnoea (shortness of breath), but I am aware of too many cases of where aspiration causes this.

Do your 1cc syringes have a needle in them? If so, do you have any that don't?



> I know someone in Dallas that has medications. I helped him with his first aid kit. If you PM me your number, I will call him in the morning.


Charis he has TMP/SMX and I am going to give him instructions on use.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

..or can the needle be removed if you don't have any without needles ?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i have one with the needle removed. so you are saying that food got down her windpipe? and that causing the breathing right?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

just to be sure, the pills say IP 272 on them. on the container it says: substituted for bacterim DS tablets. they are about a year old. ( 01/03/09 )


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> so you are saying that food got down her windpipe? and that causing the breathing right?


Almost, I am saying food got down her windpipe, into her lungs, that has caused a bacterial infection to develop, this can happen with fresh food, if the food was in any way sour this just compounds the problem.

I have used needle syringes with the needle removed before for liquids the consistency of water. Because we are going to make a suspension, which is thicker, the syringe will have to be worked on a bit to allow a thicker fluid to pass, this how you do it. Get an box cutter or exacto and cut back the end of the syringe until there is about an 1/8" left at the end of the syringe. You can sculpt this a bit to make it even all around. We now need a very heavy gage needle. First, take the plunger out of the syringe, now heat the needle on the stove to hot, very carefully insert this heat needle into the center of the top of the syringe to melt open a bigger hole, the hole should be around 1/16" in diameter. Any questions?

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> I found: Sulfameth/trimethoprm 800/160 tabs


As long as this is correct everything else doesn't matter. A year old is fine.

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

that what it says.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Good. Do you have any kind of syrup around the house such as, Karo syrup, corn syrup or even pancake syrup? Do you have any apple cider vinegar (ACV) as well? Do you have a shot glass for mixing drinks around?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

maybe corn or pancake syrup. will a cup work?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i have hungry jack butter flavored syrup.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> maybe corn or pancake syrup. will a cup work?


Corn syrup is good, no a cup will be way too big, we need something about the size of a shot glass, an espresso cup would work, or any other very small cup would work. We got to get going on this, as the sooner we get the meds into her the better. Let's try and make the back and forth quicker.

I am working on the instructions, how's the syringe coming?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i have the syringe already with the needle removed but it can't suck up syrup. i cant find corn syrup.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i have a container the size of a shot glass.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i cut the syringe to the 9th cc mark now it can suck syrup.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

How are we now going to draw up a dose of the mixed suspension? Do you have another syringe?

*Here are the instructions:*

Take one of the Sulfameth/trimethoprm 800/160 tablets and cut it very evenly in half. Place this half into the small glass, and crush it into a powder, I use the end of a bread knife to do this. We now need to introduce 3cc of water into this dish that has the crushed tablet in it. This measurement has to be very precise as well. First add 3cc of warm water to help the pills start to dissolve, to do this take the 1cc syringe and draw the water up 3 times to the 1cc mark and put in. 

Now because the corn syrup is going to be too thick to draw up into the syringe I want you to get a very small bottle, an empty pill bottle will do, and draw up some water 7 times to the 1cc mark on the syringe and put it in to the bottle. Now make a little mark on the outside of the bottle to show where 7cc comes to, dump this out and pour up to this 7cc make the corn syrup. Now to this corn syrup add the small glass that has the previously crushed tablet and 3cc of water, make sure you get all the contents/med out, and put the top on the bottle and shake very well.

From this draw up to the .50 line (1/2cc) on the syringe and give this to you bird by mouth and let's hope for the best. Any questions?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i have another syringe. but you lost me. why do i need another?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> i have another syringe. but you lost me. why do i need another?


Because didn't you said you cut the top off the other and water or finished med will not hold in a syringe with the top cut off.

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i crushed the pill. i drew 3cc. explain clearer what next?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> i crushed the pill. i drew 3cc. explain clearer what next?


Mix these two together very well. (1/2 a pill right?)


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Because didn't you said you cut the top off the other and water or finished med will not hold in a syringe with the top cut off.
> 
> Karyn


no i meant that i could not draw syrup with the top of the syringe on.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> no i meant that i could not draw syrup with the top of the syringe on.


OK, got you, any questions about above, 1/2 a pill right?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Dobato said:


> Mix these two together very well. (1/2 a pill right?)


yes 1/2 pill wait i drew 3 little marks of water and thats not enough to mix how much is a cc?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> yes 1/2 pill wait i drew 3 little marks of water and thats not enough to mix how much is a cc?


One cc (1cc) is to the last line where you pull the plunger out to. It should be marked like 1mL or 1.00cc

If you added the .30cc you will only need to add 2cc and the to the .70 line, about 3/4 of a syringe full.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

these are insulin syringes they say 1cc on them but is 3 cc's = to 30 units? wait i get it i think. let me try.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> these are insulin syringes they say 1cc on them but is 3 cc's = to 30 units?


No, 1cc is going to be a full syringe (almost anyway) pull the plunger back until the top of it, the black plunger, is even with the last line.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

ok adde 3 syringes full. i guess 3 cc's?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

cool i get it. now what?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> ok adde 3 syringes full. i guess 3 cc's?


Yes, this is 3cc. Now do this 7 times with water into a small pill bottle, make a mark on the outside to where the 7cc is. Dump this and fill with syrup, right from the syrup bottle, until this line.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

ok got it all mixed up. now 1/2 a syringe?


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

i used pancake syrup that ok?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia! said:


> ok got it all mixed up. now 1/2 a syringe?


Yes, give her 0.50 (1/2 a syringe) slowly make sure she takes it smoothly. Pancake syrup is OK.

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

ok thanks for evrything i gaveit to her. her beak is freaking blue! i hope she lives. thanks again ill let you get to bed. ill report in the morning.


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

wait should i re treat her if she makes the night?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

She is hypoxic, is not getting enough oxygen into her, hence the blue color. If you could, I would like you to slowly give about 3cc of warm water, a few drops at a time, I am worried that the meds are just going to sit in the crop, some more fluids will help them pass a bit better. I will say a prayer for her.

Yes, in about twelve hours give her the same amount of meds again, plus she will need to be given more water 5-7cc, I will check in, in the morning. She really does need a vet though, can your parents help out?

Karyn


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

yeah she died overnight. thanks for your help and support everyone.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

sorry to hear


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Columba livia, I am sorry to hear this news. I think many of us knew last night the odds where not very good for this little one, but we tried our best, with the circumstances we were handed, and she is at peace now and no longer in distress. May I say, rest in peace sweet, little one.

Columba livia, anyone who has been around birds for any length of time has lost birds that they have tried to save and were not able to, try as we may. In the cases where this has happened to me, I made a silent promise to each one, that I would use what I learned from their dying to help another bird, so their death would not be completely in vain. I know without a doubt, because of what I learned from other of my bird's passing, through illness, there are birds alive in my coop, right now, as a result. In your case, you now know about being careful of sour food, how to mix up a suspension from an anti-biotic tablet, and perhaps to remember we are always here if you are ever in doubt about the care and treatment any of your birds, if you are not 100% sure about something ask away here.

By the way, the Sulfameth/trimethoprm 800/160 tablets you have are an excellent broad spectrum anti-biotic. If last night I could have asked you to look for 3 anti-biotics, out of the many that could have been used, this is one of the three I would have asked you to try and find. This medicine will treat illnesses such as coccidiosis, paratyphoid (salmonellosis), and good many other infections that your pigeons could come down with. Keep the tablets in a cool, dark place, well sealed and they will be good for a long time yet.The only thing I ask is that before starting treatment for anything that may arise in the future, you come here first and get some feedback on if, when and how to start treatment.

Very best of luck,

Karyn


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I just read this thread, sorry to hear that bad news. 

Ivette


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry your youngster didn't make it. It did look bleak last night. Karyn is right sometimes these things happen, and most of the time it is the favorites although all are cherished.
Kurps


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## Columba livia! (May 4, 2009)

Thanks yall i learned alot last night thanks to you. I will keep these pills for future emergencies.


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## cats6birds4 (Oct 4, 2003)

Im sorry about your little bird. One bit of advice
I can offer for the future is always make fresh
formula every time you feed. Just mix the small
amount you need for one feeding. It's much safer
that way. 

Beth


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