# An arguement for feeding pellets only



## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

This is an interesting and hopefully useful topic. All animals have built in instinct to feed. This is a primary instinct. A secondary instinct is what the individual animal identifies as food. The target of this feeding is formed by the environment. Piranha are a good example. The fish has a primary instinct to feed on moving items in the water column. If the piranha is living in the wild this will come in the form of smaller fish, aquatic crustaceans, and some vegetation. In captivity the piranha have been reared in an artificial environment. The target food item is a pellet or flake food (to avoid infection from living feeder organisms). The primary instinct to feed is shaped to identify these unnatural items as prey. Sometimes a predator fish will have a “pet” goldfish in their area for years without eating them. As long as the primary instinct to eat is satisfied they have no need to look for alternatives. If the primary instinct is unsatisfied, with a change in feeding regimen or other stressors, the piranha will look for alternatives. Usually this means that the “pet” becomes prey and alas a long friendship is gobbled up. This is a good argument for feeding pelleted foods only. If the racing pigeon only identifies pellets as food then they will not be distracted by other food sources in the environment. They will not identify wild seeds or garden birdfeeders as food and race home to satisfy the primary instinct to feed. Birds are not sensitive to smell or flavor but they are to color and shape.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

My mentor did a test a couple years ago, half the OB team got grain half got pellets.
On the 400, 500, and the 600 the birds that got only pellets always came home with muddy feet. When they stop for water they lose the race. Pellets are ok for YB but if you want them to go the distance they need grain.
Dave


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

I wonder if coloring the grain would make a difference? Use food color mixed in the seed container.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Why would you need to do that?
Dave


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Perhaps use pellets while trap training and then switch over to grain as they age.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> Why would you need to do that?
> Dave


I started this thread after reading about birds that go astray. I just wonder how many find a food source and stay rather than coming home.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

We now use pellets for breeding and for YB and the OB get switched to grain when they get past 200 mi station.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't think just finding a food sourse would stop them from comong home but, it does make you wonder why the don't come home.
Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

One could feed pellets for years. yet the birds would go right after any grain based feed if offered. It is like the dog eating dog food It eats what it has to to survive. If it is pellets for pigeons in the loft Sure they must eat it. Far as sating down for water Weather temps sure makes this happen more then pellets. PLUS a handler that did not feed or water the birds before the release. I will say pellets you have to find the right ration to keep weights right or the birds do get FAT.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

We have a great driver he feeds them on Friday and they have water at all times. Our last 600 is in 2 weeks from Ft. Worth Texas. So heat does play a big part.
Dave


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

I have used different pellets in the past and just to be frank, I didn’t like the mess & smell. I have always thought and I know I’m probably wrong, the method used to produce & processing the pellets may involve Chemical agents & other byproducts & supplements. But I guess you can say the same when processing Feeds & Grains, but which I consider is too a lesser degree??? Because I think that the Feeds or grains fore the most part retain their natural proteins’ and pellets because of the processing involved, grains & others feeds lose their natural proteins’ thus other artificial supplements & additives are added to replicate natural proteins’ that are lost… AHHHH, and its just a hypothesize theory of mine and really not set on any facts that I have ventured or actually studied,,,, Any Hoot, I’ll just stick to my grains & feeds because I don’t like the Mess & smell of Pellets which just seems unnatural to me…!!!


Louie


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Lafebers is a primium pellet for parrots. it is much better than the cheaper brands such as Kaytee. I wonder about the premium brands of pigeon foods found in Pure Bred Pigeon mag. etc.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> We now use pellets for breeding and for YB and the OB get switched to grain when they get past 200 mi station.


What kind of pellets do you use?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> I have used different pellets in the past and just to be frank, I didn’t like the mess & smell. I have always thought and I know I’m probably wrong, the method used to produce & processing the pellets may involve Chemical agents & other byproducts & supplements. But I guess you can say the same when processing Feeds & Grains, but which I consider is too a lesser degree??? Because I think that the Feeds or grains fore the most part retain their natural proteins’ and pellets because of the processing involved, grains & others feeds lose their natural proteins’ thus other artificial supplements & additives are added to replicate natural proteins’ that are lost… AHHHH, and its just a hypothesize theory of mine and really not set on any facts that I have ventured or actually studied,,,, Any Hoot, I’ll just stick to my grains & feeds because I don’t like the Mess & smell of Pellets which just seems unnatural to me…!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what you mean, I go back and forth with it..and do put pellets in with the grains to make up for what grains lack, like calcium.. non breeding birds do fine on grains..breeding birds seem to have really healthy fast growing squabs if offerd the pellets while feeding young, so both are good depending on what your doing with your birds... mine sometimes get harrison's all organic high potency fine pellet when feeding young..expensive but I give it to only a few that are feeding young and they really go after in a seperate croc in the nest box.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

klondike goldie said:


> Is Harrison's pellets like calfmama?


no, it is for birds only, this is what it has in it.

Ingredients: *Ground Hulled White Millet (Proso), *Ground Shelled Sunflower Seeds, *Ground Hulless Barley, *Ground Yellow Corn, *Ground Soybeans, *Ground Shelled Peanuts, *Ground Rice, *Ground Green Peas, *Ground Lentils, *Ground Toasted Oat Groats, Chia Seed, *Ground Alfalfa, Calcium Carbonate, Montmorillonite Clay, Spirulina, Ground Dried Sea Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Sea Salt, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, d-Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.
*CERTIFIED ORGANIC INGREDIENT

http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/products/hpf.html


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Hey Spirit Wings, Would you know if the source of calcium or the supplement calcium compounds or other supplement elements that’s added too or found in the “Harrison's all organic high potency fine pellet” differs from the calcium compounds found in seashells / oyster shells I add to my grit… because I do know that other pellets brands CO. boast to have contain grit in the pellets or just a artificial calcium compound supplement Additive,,, or maybe even both??? Because I guess we both know that there are other different ways and Sources that calcium “Ca” elements can be administered & adsorbed like different beans, grains, legumes, seashells, minerals’ ETC,,, by our birds??? But I guess if “Harrison pellets” say they are Organic, but can it be only that it holds truth only in the Processing & not the additional Additives??? Because a lot of so called Organic co. or products boast about the Organic Processing or the Product, but fail to mention the additional Additives especially if the product is being feed to animals that are not used for Human consumption as maybe regulated by the FDA and or USDA, when placing a claim or boasting in writing of such, that when the product(s) states that’s its an all Organic product no artificial supplements’ can be added…???


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Wayne Johnson said:


> What kind of pellets do you use?


Perina gold
Dave


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> Hey Spirit Wings, Would you know if the source of calcium or the supplement calcium compounds or other supplement elements that’s added too or found in the “Harrison's all organic high potency fine pellet” differs from the calcium compounds found in seashells / oyster shells I add to my grit… because I do know that other pellets brands CO. boast to have contain grit in the pellets or just a artificial calcium compound supplement Additive,,, or maybe even both??? Because I guess we both know that there are other different ways and Sources that calcium “Ca” elements can be administered & adsorbed like different beans, grains, legumes, seashells, minerals’ ETC,,, by our birds??? But I guess if “Harrison pellets” say they are Organic, but can it be only that it holds truth only in the Processing & not the additional Additives??? Because a lot of so called Organic co. or products boast about the Organic Processing or the Product, but fail to mention the additional Additives especially if the product is being feed to animals that are not used for Human consumption as maybe regulated by the FDA and or USDA, when placing a claim or boasting in writing of such, that when the product(s) states that’s its an all Organic product no artificial supplements’ can be added…???


I do not know, you would have to ask the company, but assumed it was from 
shells of marine organisms. we have to add calcium suppliment to all grain diets and if that is all you use then the oystershell would do the trick if the bird is eating enough..sometimes they don't though.


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Ok spirit wings, I found the Calcium source additives that are contain in the Harrison’s pellets one is Calcium carbonate and d-Calcium Pantothenate also called pantothenate or vitamin B5 both compounds of which can be artificially replicated in the Lab or can be extracted naturally and either one can be used when processing feeds for animals or humans as a calcium supplement … I guess I answered my own Question when I seen that you listed the Ingredients’ then I also seen that they say “CERTIFIED ORGANIC INGREDIENT” By whom??? Would be my next Question? But over all, from what I have read I wound lean more to using this Harrison pellets then any other product I have seen or that maybe out on the Market…!… Thank you Louie


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> Ok spirit wings, I found the Calcium source additives that are contain in the Harrison’s pellets one is Calcium carbonate and d-Calcium Pantothenate also called pantothenate or vitamin B5 both compounds of which can be artificially replicated in the Lab or can be extracted naturally and either one can be used when processing feeds for animals or humans as a calcium supplement … I guess I answered my own Question when I seen that you listed the Ingredients’ then I also seen that they say “CERTIFIED ORGANIC INGREDIENT” By whom??? Would be my next Question? But over all, from what I have read I wound lean more to using this Harrison pellets then any other product I have seen or that maybe out on the Market…!… Thank you Louie


http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/learningcenter/why-organic.html


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

OK, Wow I always talk about myself and how I’m on the Natural System, when it comes to the wellness of my birds… And that my reluctance in modifying my methods on how I’ve cared for my birds to adopt other systems and or means, because of all the garbage I see others use, give or treat their birds,,, But this Harrisons Pellets, USDA approved ingredients may alter or at least be willing to try this Product… Because I’m always so extremely picky about what and how, I feed & care for my birds… Thank you Spirit wings for this great piece of information… Louie


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

They feed pellets to thoroughbred race horses, I dont see them stopping for a drink


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Wayne Johnson said:


> This is an interesting and hopefully useful topic. All animals have built in instinct to feed. This is a primary instinct. A secondary instinct is what the individual animal identifies as food. The target of this feeding is formed by the environment. Piranha are a good example. The fish has a primary instinct to feed on moving items in the water column. If the piranha is living in the wild this will come in the form of smaller fish, aquatic crustaceans, and some vegetation. In captivity the piranha have been reared in an artificial environment. The target food item is a pellet or flake food (to avoid infection from living feeder organisms). The primary instinct to feed is shaped to identify these unnatural items as prey. Sometimes a predator fish will have a “pet” goldfish in their area for years without eating them. As long as the primary instinct to eat is satisfied they have no need to look for alternatives. If the primary instinct is unsatisfied, with a change in feeding regimen or other stressors, the piranha will look for alternatives. Usually this means that the “pet” becomes prey and alas a long friendship is gobbled up. This is a good argument for feeding pelleted foods only. If the racing pigeon only identifies pellets as food then they will not be distracted by other food sources in the environment. They will not identify wild seeds or garden birdfeeders as food and race home to satisfy the primary instinct to feed. Birds are not sensitive to smell or flavor but they are to color and shape.



My experience is that a pigeon will know what seeds are, and what they are for, even if the bird has been fed a 100% pellet ration, like mine have for a couple of generations now. It's instinct, so using this as an excuse to use pellets simply does not have any merit. 

At the end of the day, it is my pet theory, put it up there on the wall with my other pet theories. It comes down to this, what you feed your birds may be one of the least important choices that you make. It is going to depend on the quality of the feeds you have available locally. For years I fed my one Rottweiler all of the those called natural gourmet kinds of diets, where the dog is eating better then half the people on earth. Meat and Vegetables kinds of things. I guess in the wild, the dog would eat the stomach of a deer and that is how they would get their vegetables. Bottom line to make a long story short, after trips to dieticians and vets, the answer was a form of pellet from Purina. (Purina One Lamb and Rice) The health of my dog returned. So, I did the same for my pigeons, and I can see the results. (Purina Green and Gold) No point in me trying to sell my competitors on the idea of doing something any different. If you are winning Champion Bird and Champion Loft season after season, then just keep doing what you have been doing. If you can get Purina Gold and Green near a quality feed dealer near you, then thank your lucky stars. And don't tell anyone in your club and just go about your business, sooner or later they will all figure it out some day, but in the mean time, enjoy the ease and simplicity of having your birds fed well, so you can focus on the more important things !


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

IF you look at several different grains in your pigeon grain/feed You will see today that it is very low quality grain. NOT all pigeon grains are But several companies and coops that mix the grains Are not cleaning it well and using up there lower quality grains To the mix then selling it at a high price. Where as pellets have the different grain base lines and are tested for the different nutritants. Like purina gold and green Which If I believe right has been out since about 1989. One of the FIRST pellet types made directly for pigeons. AND yes people use poulty, hog, and other pellets I even use calf mana pellets as a add to the feed back in the 1970s. Alot of good vitimans in it and sure could see the young birds almost grow right in front of your eyes. YES pellets change the droppings AND the bird do drank more water. And you can smell the difference BUT cleaning the loft the same not much changes. And finding places that sell pigeon grain is getting harder making a drive to get it In the last few years i had birds i had to drive 85 miles 1 way to buy pigeon grain. Could have bought pellets local. And with gas at its prices then grain at its seem smart to find a solution. End of the day If your birds won races eating steak and potatoes You would buy them a steak. Glad pigeons are not meat eaters.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

re lee said:


> IF you look at several different grains in your pigeon grain/feed You will see today that it is very low quality grain. NOT all pigeon grains are But several companies and coops that mix the grains Are not cleaning it well and using up there lower quality grains To the mix then selling it at a high price. Where as pellets have the different grain base lines and are tested for the different nutritants. Like purina gold and green Which If I believe right has been out since about 1989. One of the FIRST pellet types made directly for pigeons. AND yes people use poulty, hog, and other pellets I even use calf mana pellets as a add to the feed back in the 1970s. Alot of good vitimans in it and sure could see the young birds almost grow right in front of your eyes. YES pellets change the droppings AND the bird do drank more water. And you can smell the difference BUT cleaning the loft the same not much changes. And finding places that sell pigeon grain is getting harder making a drive to get it In the last few years i had birds i had to drive 85 miles 1 way to buy pigeon grain. Could have bought pellets local. And with gas at its prices then grain at its seem smart to find a solution. End of the day If your birds won races eating steak and potatoes You would buy them a steak. Glad pigeons are not meat eaters.



I fed my pigeons Purina Pigeon Chow back in 70-73. I'm sure the recipe has changed but all I want to say is that Purina has made pigeon pellets for a long time.


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> We now use pellets for breeding and for YB and the OB get switched to grain when they get past 200 mi station.


When you introduce grain, is there a period when you have to provide both pellets and grain?


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Geee Spirit wings, I checked for availability of that Harrisons Pellets in my area of Florida and found a few Vet Clinics that sells it, one is just almost walking distance from where I live, But a 1lb bag costs over ten bucks… That’s just too steep in price for me to even consider buying it!!! Oh well I’ll just continue to use my feeds & grains that have served me well over the decades… Thanks anyway for all the great info… Louie


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My experience is that a pigeon will know what seeds are, and what they are for, even if the bird has been fed a 100% pellet ration, like mine have for a couple of generations now. It's instinct, so using this as an excuse to use pellets simply does not have any merit.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is my pet theory, put it up there on the wall with my other pet theories. It comes down to this, what you feed your birds may be one of the least important choices that you make. It is going to depend on the quality of the feeds you have available locally. For years I fed my one Rottweiler all of the those called natural gourmet kinds of diets, where the dog is eating better then half the people on earth. Meat and Vegetables kinds of things. I guess in the wild, the dog would eat the stomach of a deer and that is how they would get their vegetables. Bottom line to make a long story short, after trips to dieticians and vets, the answer was a form of pellet from Purina. The health of my dog returned. So, I did the same for my pigeons, and I can see the results. No point in me trying to sell my competitors on the idea of doing something any different. If you are winning Champion Bird and Champion Loft season after season, then just keep doing what you have been doing. If you can get Purina Gold and Green near a quality feed dealer near you, then thank your lucky stars. And don't tell anyone in your club and just go about your business, sooner or later they will all figure it out some day, but in the mean time, enjoy the ease and simplicity of having your birds fed well, so you can focus on the more important things !


Hello Sir,

I find your posts very informative but I have an issue with this one. And that is when you stated "If you are winning Champion Bird and Champion Loft season after season, then just keep doing what you have been doing."

Well I do agree with that but those people aren't reading this and secondly using pellets won't make you win and win and win either.

When I was a kid I used pellets. I had great and healthy birds. And much to the contrary of what gets said, my birds still ate grit. Did they need it? Apparently they thought so.

I guess I am very lucky to have both a good feed and Purina Pellets available at my feed store. I have gone with feeding mine a house mix that has 19 different seeds and grains. I did think long and hard about using pellets and went the way I did. This thread and those like it always make me revisit my choice. I believe that if I were a breeder like you, I would also use pellets and probably for the same reasons. But don't mislead someone into thinking that using pellets will make them and their birds champions.

Take care and keep on doing what you do.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My experience is that a pigeon will know what seeds are, and what they are for, even if the bird has been fed a 100% pellet ration, like mine have for a couple of generations now. It's instinct, so using this as an excuse to use pellets simply does not have any merit.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is my pet theory, put it up there on the wall with my other pet theories. It comes down to this, what you feed your birds may be one of the least important choices that you make. It is going to depend on the quality of the feeds you have available locally. For years I fed my one Rottweiler all of the those called natural gourmet kinds of diets, where the dog is eating better then half the people on earth. Meat and Vegetables kinds of things. I guess in the wild, the dog would eat the stomach of a deer and that is how they would get their vegetables. Bottom line to make a long story short, after trips to dieticians and vets, the answer was a form of pellet from Purina. The health of my dog returned. So, I did the same for my pigeons, and I can see the results. No point in me trying to sell my competitors on the idea of doing something any different. If you are winning Champion Bird and Champion Loft season after season, then just keep doing what you have been doing. If you can get Purina Gold and Green near a quality feed dealer near you, then thank your lucky stars. And don't tell anyone in your club and just go about your business, sooner or later they will all figure it out some day, but in the mean time, enjoy the ease and simplicity of having your birds fed well, so you can focus on the more important things !


I started this year using the green and gold. My young birds look and are flying great. I believe that this year of YB are better than last year, but it is mot much to measure, this is my third year with pigeons. I do like the ease of feeding and this year will be a good test come race season this fall. I got to order the feed least a week in advance, but that is better than not being able to get it. No I have not shared it with my club members LOL


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I feed both grains and pellets. I try to cover both base. If feed pellets alone, you have to give them more else they act like that they are hungry.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Wayne Johnson said:


> When you introduce grain, is there a period when you have to provide both pellets and grain?



No... When they come home from the 200 they get pellets, the next day they get grain. when I send them to the 300 they do ok by the time they go to the 400 and up they are ready. We ship on Thursday for the 400, 500, and 600 On Wednesday I add peanuts to the mix + I spray some safflower oil so the wheat germ will stick. 
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> My experience is that a pigeon will know what seeds are, and what they are for, even if the bird has been fed a 100% pellet ration, like mine have for a couple of generations now. It's instinct, so using this as an excuse to use pellets simply does not have any merit.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is my pet theory, put it up there on the wall with my other pet theories. *It comes down to this, what you feed your birds may be one of the least important choices that you make.* It is going to depend on the quality of the feeds you have available locally. For years I fed my one Rottweiler all of the those called natural gourmet kinds of diets, where the dog is eating better then half the people on earth. Meat and Vegetables kinds of things. I guess in the wild, the dog would eat the stomach of a deer and that is how they would get their vegetables. Bottom line to make a long story short, after trips to dieticians and vets, the answer was a form of pellet from Purina. (Purina One Lamb and Rice) The health of my dog returned. So, I did the same for my pigeons, and I can see the results. (Purina Green and Gold) No point in me trying to sell my competitors on the idea of doing something any different. If you are winning Champion Bird and Champion Loft season after season, then just keep doing what you have been doing. If you can get Purina Gold and Green near a quality feed dealer near you, then thank your lucky stars. And don't tell anyone in your club and just go about your business, sooner or later they will all figure it out some day, but in the mean time, *enjoy the ease and simplicity of having your birds fed well, so you can focus on the more important things !*







rpalmer said:


> Hello Sir,
> 
> I find your posts very informative but I have an issue with this one. And that is when you stated "If you are winning Champion Bird and Champion Loft season after season, then just keep doing what you have been doing."
> 
> ...


 Hello Palmer,

Please review areas above I have placed in bold print. 

I agree with the statement that simply feeding your birds pellets won't in and of itself make a fancier a winner. But, as a general rule, besides loft location and which way the wind is blowing on race day, the guy with the pigeons in the best health and condition, along with a strong desire to get back home, will be the winner. And my thinking is a good diet contributes to good health. 

But, as I stated in my first post, what one feeds may be less important, in terms of what is necessary for good health and performance on race day. I believe there can be a hundred different mixes/methods/ things that one can feed, and how they are fed, and still achieve good performance.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Mr. Sampford fed just beans....lol.. yep.. just beans..
(smallest loft in Europe)


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> I fed my pigeons Purina Pigeon Chow back in 70-73. I'm sure the recipe has changed but all I want to say is that Purina has made pigeon pellets for a long time.


Purina green and gold are small round pellets not the oblong pellets And they did not make green or gold back in the early 1970s. Poultry pellets were around then mid and after 70s a regular pigeon pellet But it to was the oblong like chicken pellets. BUT thats just what i remember And May have forgoten a little.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

spirit wings said:


> Mr. Sampford fed just beans....lol.. yep.. just beans..
> (smallest loft in Europe)


YES people feed what the can get. As different areas different feeds become avalible. I know some people who feed only milo and whole corn. AND win a good share of there races. Training and selecting makes for good birds feed makes for 1 part of the whole. Health in diet.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I made the switch to Purina Gold and Green this year and am 90% satisfied. I really like the ease of changing the protein/carb mix as I see fit. I don't supplement with vitamins or minerals anymore, but I add fats (hemp, sunflower, peanuts) to the mix at the end of the week before shipping birds on longer races - so that's the only grains they get. I got a 500 mile day bird yesterday doing that. Can't tell if he stopped for water along the way or not. He made it at about 1177 YPM. 

I've had a better year in OB this year than any other, but I don't think I can totally credit the pellets for that. I may be getting better at handling and my birds are getting older and wiser as well.

I did have some concern about raising babies on pellets then shipping them to futurities having never seen or tasted grain. I haven't heard of any problems from the handlers I sent to, however, so the babies must have figured it out just fine.

I don't see reason to change back to grain. Stools are loose, yes. It's all about pros and cons and give and take - nothing is perfect. We all have to decide what works best for us and our birds in our given situations.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> Mr. Sampford fed just beans....lol.. yep.. just beans..
> (smallest loft in Europe)


HAHA thats a great one!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

On the advice of Warren (SmithFamilyLofts) last year, I few my birds Purina green and gold pellets only. On previous years I fed grain with corn only.

I have now switched back this year to grain, with "some" pellets thrown in the mix.

The reason being that my race results last year were not as good as the previous years. But there are sooo many variables in pigeon racing, that the pellet diet could have had absolutely nothing to do with the reace results. My combine changed the course last year and is now changing the time of year AND the course again, for our races. 

But I made the decision to do about 90% grain and 10% pellets this year.


I will say this for an all pellet feed. It sure does raise some very nice plump and healthy babies.

I just can't say whether 100% pellets is the way to go or not, because of all of the variables I have experienced the last three years (change of course EVERY year is probably #1 variable). But I can give this suggestion. No matter what the instructions on the bag of pellets states about grit not being necessary when feeding pellets. Give them some anyway. It can't hurt and if they eat it, the birds apparently know something the pellet manufacture doesn't.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Give them some anyway. It can't hurt and if they eat it, the birds apparently know something the pellet manufacture doesn't.


I agree. But you might want to limit the amount of pink grit, as it is fortified with minerals and you don't want to overdue it. I use the granite starter grit (it's white) from Southern States.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Kastle Loft said:


> I agree. But you might want to limit the amount of pink grit, as it is fortified with minerals and you don't want to overdue it. I use the granite starter grit (it's white) from Southern States.


Well the birds would have to eat X amount of grit to be over doing it. If they are eating that much then there is a problem with your pellets or what you consider X amount is just wrong. The birds will walk away from grit when they have what they know to be enough. I have read the bag that Purina puts out and I'm pretty sure it said that grit is not necessary. It does not say do not feed with grit. 

Make grit available and if your birds want it it is there. Much better than them landing on a road somewhere to eat gravel.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> Well the birds would have to eat X amount of grit to be over doing it. If they are eating that much then there is a problem with your pellets or what you consider X amount is just wrong. The birds will walk away from grit when they have what they know to be enough. I have read the bag that Purina puts out and I'm pretty sure it said that grit is not necessary. It does not say do not feed with grit.
> 
> Make grit available and if your birds want it it is there. Much better than them landing on a road somewhere to eat gravel.


I would agree on this one. The bird knows what they need. If they don't need grit they will just ignore it.

If I am feeding pure pellets I will add more quantity for them to eat.


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## suepahfly (Mar 19, 2010)

I'd like to see a list of Champion Birds and Champion Lofts that feed only pellets.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

maybe they do not want to let it be known.... give away too much to the competition.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Here is the list.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> Well the birds would have to eat X amount of grit to be over doing it. If they are eating that much then there is a problem with your pellets or what you consider X amount is just wrong. The birds will walk away from grit when they have what they know to be enough. I have read the bag that Purina puts out and I'm pretty sure it said that grit is not necessary. It does not say do not feed with grit.
> 
> Make grit available and if your birds want it it is there. Much better than them landing on a road somewhere to eat gravel.


It's not a matter of X amount of grit, it's a matter of overdosing on minerals. I leave grit out 24/7 for my birds. I just don't use the pink (fortified) grit as they are already getting it in the pellets. I don't think the pigeons know when they have had enough minerals and will stop eating the pink grit.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The only danger I can think of is the overdosing of salt. I don't know any pigeons that died of too much grit. But then again I've read that some pigeons died because of overdosing of protein content and calcium. It was very hard for their liver.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

suepahfly said:


> I'd like to see a list of Champion Birds and Champion Lofts that feed only pellets.


Where are those lists kept ?  And why just pellets, what about the various pellet formulations that might be available in different parts of the world ? I use Purina Green and Gold which I mix together. How many different possible combinations do those who use the Purina system have available to them with just 2 bags ? I am thinking over a hundred different combinations and thus a hundred different diets, and that is just one pellet system. 

How long of a list do you think there might be, of all the winners who won on a slightly different grain diet ? Say, all the winners who used different percentages of corn, barley, those that use wheat, etc etc etc How many different and varied combinations have been used successfully in the world ? How many Champs only feed Brown's Super Crack ?  Those who are using a commercial grain mix, what grains did the winning bird actually eat ? You know in theory when feeding a commercial mix, you have numerous different diets because some birds will prefer different grains, just like if you send people to a food buffet, not everyone is going to return with the same foods or in the same percentages.

What would such lists tell us, if they were available ? I am thinking it would reveal nothing except that winners have been fed hundreds of different diets. 

It may be a bit off topic, but here is an article about a fancier who among other things, only fed his pigeons beans. That's it...just beans. 
http://www.articles.racing-pigeon-post.org/Smallest_loft.html


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

If I could just find out what kind of beans he's feeding I could save a ton on pigeon feed.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Where are those lists kept ?


If there were such a winning loft the producers of the pellets would use them in their advertising. But like you correctly say... to each their own. Take care everyone.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> If there were such a winning loft the producers of the pellets would use them in their advertising. But like you correctly say... to each their own. Take care everyone.


you really think the athletes really use the products they advertise?....hahahaha!..and lol..


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren has a very good point. When I feed grain (seeds), certain birds will only eat certain seeds. When I feed a mixture of green and gold pellets, certain birds will only eat the green or the gold. When I give them treats of sunflowers seeds and spanish peanuts, certain birds will scarf them up and certain birds will not touch them.

It is like all of us going to MeDonalds. Some will get a Big Mac and fires. Some will opt for chicken nuggets and hot apple pie. Some will just get coffee. Some will get four double cheeseburgers and two fries and a strawberry milk shake.

hmmm....suddenly I'm hungry. I'm going to Mickey Deee's. See ya.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh oh !!! get me some nuggets!.... w/bbq sauce!....lol...


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> you really think the athletes really use the products they advertise?....hahahaha!..and lol..


No I don't. But I also know that pigeons are not seeking any type of monetary compensation for advertising or winning races. If their owners were winning on pellet X then there would be an endorsement by the product producer with the bird's owner receiving compensation. 

Athletes may say they enjoy Wheaties but they did not make them the athletes that they are. The opposite would be true with Pigeon Pellets. There is just way too much money to be made by any company and loft that has a winning product for racing pigeons. Maybe even show birds.

So I don't think there is a list of winning lofts that use pellets for feed. You would sure have seen their add if there was. Just all part of the game.


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## suepahfly (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm not expecting a formal list, you all know what I'm looking for..."Joe Blow in my club dominates and he only uses pellets." I'm not saying you can't keep'em alive on pellets or even get lucky and win one here or there but I've NEVER heard of anyone who *DOMINATES* with only pellets. I don't care how you mix it or feed it or if you use goat, turkey, horse, rabbit or whatever pellets.


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## mikel (Jun 9, 2011)

it always depend on the birds,if they get to the best condition in pellet then it works for them if they get to best condition in grains then it works,in general all birds favored certain foods,even in grains,except if you starved it,im open minded in this,its always worth it a try,atleast i know the result rather not trying it and thinking what may be the result,that is the challenge in this sport,you always gonna think of an edge over the other competitors,so experimenting is always a good options,if it fails then back to the old ways and hell if it hit the bank then im not gonna tell anyone


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> No I don't. But I also know that pigeons are not seeking any type of monetary compensation for advertising or winning races. If their owners were winning on pellet X then there would be an endorsement by the product producer with the bird's owner receiving compensation.
> 
> Athletes may say they enjoy Wheaties but they did not make them the athletes that they are. The opposite would be true with Pigeon Pellets. There is just way too much money to be made by any company and loft that has a winning product for racing pigeons. Maybe even show birds.
> 
> So I don't think there is a list of winning lofts that use pellets for feed. You would sure have seen their add if there was. Just all part of the game.


and they probabaly would not tell you or anyone exactly what they give or feed.... or say they do but don't.... it is a pretty competative sport.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

The best pigeon racer I know, feeds his birds different things on different days and during different circumstances. Certain grains two days before a race. Different from the day before a race and the day they come back. Everyday of the week and each of the two feedings during each day, consists of different grains that he mixes himself.

He does not use any pellets whatsoever, in any of his procedures.

He uses some things that are not grains also, such as a powdered milk substance sprinkled on their feed under circumstances. (I found this one a little hard to understand, but you can't argue with success)

Like I said. He is the best I personally know.

He has given me the formula to feed like he does and explained to me the whys and hows for what he does. It all makes sense and he, as I said, wins big time. But the procedures are just too darn difficult and time consuming for me. We are life long frineds. I doubt he would share his methods with anyone else. But maybe he has.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I have been told that the process by which the pellets are made always degrades the nutritional value of the original grains (intense heat is used apparently). I'd like to know if anyone else knows that to be true.

Or, if Purina knows that and compensates somehow. Do they test their product after the fact? I imagine they would . . . I sure would like to interview one of the Purina researchers . . .

And btw, I have now been through 7 months of feeding pellets only. Been through a breeding season and flown 11 races in OB season. I have little to no complaints about the pellets. I had birds finish in the top ten% consistently including a 4th place combine 500mile day bird. I can't completely give credit to feeding, but it certainly didn't hurt me IMO.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kastle Loft said:


> I have been told that *the process by which the pellets are made always degrades the nutritional value of the original grains *(intense heat is used apparently). I'd like to know if anyone else knows that to be true.
> 
> Or, if Purina knows that and compensates somehow. Do they test their product after the fact? I imagine they would . . . I sure would like to interview one of the Purina researchers . . .
> 
> And btw, I have now been through 7 months of feeding pellets only. Been through a breeding season and flown 11 races in OB season. I have little to no complaints about the pellets. I had birds finish in the top ten% consistently including a 4th place combine 500mile day bird. I can't completely give credit to feeding, but it certainly didn't hurt me IMO.


 I am thinking it does not matter where the food values start, it is what the end product ends up being. Would be true for all their pellet products, for cattle, fish, horse, poultry, dogs, cats, etc. The United States Food and Drug Administration would regulate truth in labeling issues I would think.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> *The best pigeon racer I know, feeds his birds different things on different days and during different circumstances. * Certain grains two days before a race. Different from the day before a race and the day they come back. Everyday of the week and each of the two feedings during each day, consists of different grains that he mixes himself.
> 
> He does not use any pellets whatsoever, in any of his procedures.
> 
> ...



Cause and Effect is something that everyone might not be familar with. 

I know exactly what the four top players in my combine feed. And even if I spelled it all out for everyone, there are those who would want to argue as to why these fliers are feeding their birds wrong.  

So, at the end of the day, what fanciers feed, or don't feed, for 98% of those reading these words, it won't make a lick of difference. If you don't have quality birds, a good loft, and good management, then the best feed, or even the perfect food, won't turn their birds into Champions. May not even raise their level of competitivness high enough to even measure.

If the winning guy in your combine, drinks a beer and has a shot on the morning of race day, then there are those who would attribute his success to the shot and beer. Or, if he only cleaned his loft out on Tuesdays. Or if he sang his birds to sleep the night before shipping. Or, if he gave his birds some Kool Aid ...or maybe sipped some himself. 

If one could duplicate exactly what a sucessful fancier is doing, then they should be able to duplicate his results, perhaps even do better. Well, how often does that happen ? And then when you are #1, who and what are you suppose to copy ? My only point, is that I think most folks are attempting to make it far more complicated then it needs to be.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

after reading all five pages of this debate, I have one question.

What would be wrong with feeding your breeders/prisoners pellets, with a grain treat a couple times a week, and a combo of pellets, and grain to the fliers?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Thunderbird Racing said:


> after reading all five pages of this debate, I have one question.
> 
> What would be wrong with feeding your breeders/prisoners pellets, with a grain treat a couple times a week, and a combo of pellets, and grain to the fliers?



I don't think there would be anything "wrong" with what you suggest. I just don't think "treats" are necessary. Nor do I think you will be able to provide improved nutrition over Purina's formulation by adding grains. But, just like the BILLION $$$ dog and cat food business, appealling to the emotional needs of the human caretaker is BIG business. If in your mind, providing "treats" and giving additional grains for fear something might be missing, etc. gives you some sort of Peace of mind, then by all means, go ahead and do what makes you feel better. The Purina research teams have all ready done the research, one either buys into the science, or they do not.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Cause and Effect is something that everyone might not be familar with.
> 
> I know exactly what the four top players in my combine feed. And even if I spelled it all out for everyone, there are those who would want to argue as to why these fliers are feeding their birds wrong.
> 
> ...


My daughter kisses her birds before they go in the basket.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kastle Loft said:


> My daughter kisses her birds before they go in the basket.


 I didn't want to share that winning tip, preferring to just keep it to myself. In my case, it was the wife kissing "Silver Lace" before we shipped her off to the 1st Annual Pigeon Talk Classic One Loft Race. After that resulted in a 1st Place win, I knew that it was due in large part to the kissing. Well, now another great secret of the Champions is out..........preferring for people to think it was the feeding.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

base on own experience pellet are good for the breeders and squab. the breeders body wont get thin and there feathers remain glossy


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree pellets are good for breeding pairs and molting birds but I still like to mix it with grains .


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

BetaPigeon said:


> They feed pellets to thoroughbred race horses, I dont see them stopping for a drink


*They only race for about 1 and 1/4 mile around a track, your racing pigeon races from 100 miles to 600 miles and I might add the pigeon does it with OUT a jockey. A pigeon can come home from a 600 mile race in a day show me a race horse that can do that AND THE HORSE WILL STOP FOR A DRINK IN A 100 MILE RACE. * .GEORGE


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

What George said. Terrible comparison.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Yeah, can't compare. There are many equine endurance races around the world (many even through the deserts of Dubai). There are preliminary vet checks on the horses before they are even allowed to race. Then there are vet checks DURING the race and the horses have to pass inspection before they are allowed to continue. The horses drink during these stops as well.

Wish we could do that for our birds


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

APF_LOFT said:


> base on own experience pellet are good for the breeders and squab. the breeders body wont get thin and there feathers remain glossy


My breeders get 100% pellets. My racers get 100% grain. That grain mix is my own mix that contains 1/3 barley untill the races reach 200 miles. That is when it starts to change with the distance. Also on race day they get the same mix without the barley opon return.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Cause and Effect is something that everyone might not be familar with.
> 
> I know exactly what the four top players in my combine feed. And even if I spelled it all out for everyone, there are those who would want to argue as to why these fliers are feeding their birds wrong.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% on this issue. People often confuse correlation with cause. All of those examples you gave are correlations to the birds' winning. There have been no empirical studies done (to my knowledge) to prove or disprove the effect of feeding certain foods or withholding certain foods on race results. It would be interesting to have a scientific study to determine the effects of feeding on race results...probably just not practical to do that study.


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