# Dead squabs/missing eggs.



## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

This has really got me puzzled. This year I had quite a few squabs found dead far away from their nests. Most of the birds nest on the floor. They seem to be dragged and then killed sometimes 6' from the nest. There are no bites, blood, missing limbs just a dead baby. I have even found them alive in the middle of the floor ice cold and returned them and they make it.

I have also had missing eggs a few I found on the floor broken open. I am wondering if these are other males/females possibly killing the others young?? Has anyone had this happen. I have inspected the floor closely searching for droppings from a rat or any signs but have found none. Also I have ruled out snakes because the only way in would be up the aviary and over the trap and a snake would never drag a baby off and leave it to die they would devour them in the nest.

I raised 13 young and put fake eggs out due to the issues. Any opinions. 

BTW Tressa if you see this goldy is trained and very healthy.


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## Glyn (Jun 29, 2009)

They Could Be Going Into The Middle Off The Loft And Just Freeze To Death


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I mean 1-3 day old babies just sitting in the middle of the loft half alive they certainly didn't crawl there.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think snake, because if you have had missing eggs, where did they go?, it could be a small snake and he just can't swallow the squab all the way so they push it back out and leave it with no marks. If it was a pigeon doing it there would be scalp marks and some blood, or if it was a rat/mouse it would have been blood too. how old were the squabs? if they were not tiny ones I would say it is a small snake. pigeons would have to use their beaks so that would cause trauma to the skin. If snakes can climb trees they can climb a loft no problem and get in any small opening. I would cover every inch that had any size opening with 1/4 inch hard wire cloth and see if things change. also do you have a cat, sometimes cats like to play and not always eat it, if you do it may get in the loft when your not looking when you have it open and sneak out when he hears you or justs get tired of playing around in there...just a thought on that one.


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## Glyn (Jun 29, 2009)

well i would think if a snake did it it would have eaten it or if it was a pigeon it would have made it bleed or if it was a rat it would have eaten half of it ??


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

I have never heard of this, you say you have found the babies at time "ice cold in the middle of the floor" so i am guessing it must be winter. I do not think there would be any snakes out in the winter. I think if we had a pict of the loft/avery we would perhaps have an easier time trying to figure what may or may not be sabatoging your nest.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

i see your in Florida, no winter there last i knew, so i guess the snake is still a player in this


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi grimm, Did any of the you have a slime over their body? Snakes swallow their prey and if they can't get them down the y will spit them out and there will be a slimy film on the young bird.* GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Grim said:


> This has really got me puzzled. This year I had quite a few squabs found dead far away from their nests. Most of the birds nest on the floor. They seem to be dragged and then killed sometimes 6' from the nest. There are no bites, blood, missing limbs just a dead baby. I have even found them alive in the middle of the floor ice cold and returned them and they make it.
> 
> I have also had missing eggs a few I found on the floor broken open. I am wondering if these are other males/females possibly killing the others young?? Has anyone had this happen. I have inspected the floor closely searching for droppings from a rat or any signs but have found none. Also I have ruled out snakes because the only way in would be up the aviary and over the trap and a snake would never drag a baby off and leave it to die they would devour them in the nest.
> 
> ...


 The first thing I would do, in order to get to the bottom of this, is to predator proof your loft. That really should have been the first order of business before birds were even put into the loft, but perhaps you were thinking big mammal's like bears, lions, cats and dogs, and over looked the possibility of reptiles and such. Perhaps a little research into how large of an area might be needed for a small snake to enter the loft. Then set about securing the loft. Once the loft is really secured, then you can eliminate snakes and such as possible causes for your problem.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2009)

I think your culprit is another male .. if you have more them one pair on the floor they tend to be overly protective of the whole floor and will kill and drag babys out of nests and leave them to die whenever they get the chance .


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

The loft is sealed except for the aviary which is a plastic coated mesh. Large enough for a snake. A rat snake would be a good candidate but would most likely swallow the squabs whole. I have found broken eggs and some just never found so I think it is safe to say a snake would be the best bet. I will wrap netting on the 4x4s that hold the aviary and see what I can catch.

By ice cold I mean they were to young to maintain their own heat and were cold to the touch (Almost dead). They tend to be just past banding age so I find them with their bands about 3-4' from their nests. No slimy coat that I noticed but I would have to catch that within hours or im sure it would be dried up.

Also no cats!

Thanks for the responses


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2009)

snakes would have eatten the squabs not dragged them away from the nest and would have eaten the eggs too and left you nothing to find ,they arent clumsy and they dont leave broken eggs behind ..look to your pairs fighting for territory .


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I agree snakes are not sloppy. Yet it may be a combination of both since some eggs are never found.

I am done breeding this year and will make some changes for next year.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2009)

maybe if you added a loft cam you could find out whats going on there


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Lokotaloft. If the snake couldn't swallow the baby, it would know it, and spit it up right there at the nest where it tried to swallow it. Don't think it would go across the floor with it, and then decide that it was to big to swallow. I think it's another male bird. Nesting on the floor ..................not a good idea. 
The loft being covered in the plastic netting is dangerous. Anything can chew through it. I had an enclosure once, and used that stuff. A squirrel chewed right through and my birds got out through the hole. I got them back, but would never use it again.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* There over 50 different snake types in Flordia of these there 6 that are poisonous and 4 of these can be found throught out the state.Many of the 50 are small in size 1 to 3 feet in lenth.They can enter lofts thru openings of 1 inch and many will eat birds and eggs.If one googles Flordia snakes you will find a world of information SO GOOGLE A BIT* ..GEORGE


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

*Loft cam*

Loft cam is a good idea, i bought a baby monitor with video and sound for about $80.00 and it works pretty good. This last breeding season i would sit inside the house and watch the birds when i put the breeders togather.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about the carnage going on. That is such a heartbreak. 

Are you sure it is not a snake? *This is snake season.*We have had several snakes try to get in our loft, and believe me I have seen them climb the outside wall. They will try try constrict babies by choking them. I have a friend who had alot of babies they found dead and it was snakes, they didn't eat them because they were too big but nevertheless left them for dead.

Also, Do you remove the seed/feeders at night, because that would draw rats and mice.

Anyway, regardless of what it was, you know you need to find any openings larger then 1/2 inch and secure them. Let me know if I can help.

I'm very happy to hear that Goldie is doing well and is trained. I hope to see him sometime. Thank you for the update on him.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I am a huge snake guy in the past I kept and bred many many snakes and it is extremely rare for a snake to bite something and try to eat something it cannot swallow. I doubt very much that it is a snake.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ohiogsp said:


> I am a huge snake guy in the past I kept and bred many many snakes and it is extremely rare for a snake to bite something and try to eat something it cannot swallow. I doubt very much that it is a snake.


not true, I had a black snake try to coil around my chicken and he was going to try to swallow it, lucky hens make alot of noise, I raced out there and he had the chicken in shock and was trying to gulp him down....it would of killed both of them, I have seen dead birds that snakes have expelled also...those big snakes in africa or south America, I have seen programs where they tried to eat a deer and died doing it. so I still think it is a very small snake and when he comes in, eggs get tossed around becouse the pigeons are freaking out and it is dark, and that would exlpain eggs being missing too.
a 8 to 10 day old squab may be too much for him to handle, they are as big as a small apple at that point.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Grim said:


> This has really got me puzzled. This year I had quite a few squabs found dead far away from their nests. Most of the birds nest on the floor. They seem to be dragged and then killed sometimes 6' from the nest. There are no bites, blood, missing limbs just a dead baby. I have even found them alive in the middle of the floor ice cold and returned them and they make it.
> 
> I have also had missing eggs a few I found on the floor broken open. I am wondering if these are other males/females possibly killing the others young?? Has anyone had this happen. I have inspected the floor closely searching for droppings from a rat or any signs but have found none. Also I have ruled out snakes because the only way in would be up the aviary and over the trap and a snake would never drag a baby off and leave it to die they would devour them in the nest.
> 
> ...


It is not a snake like I said. Why would a snake pull a baby from the nest over and over and not eat it?? If the snake swallowed it you would be able to tell (for sure). Sometimes pigeon just decide to leave babies die for whatever reason and it does happen alot more often on the floor. They also break eggs. Maybe other pigeons are fighting with them and they decide to leave the babies and the other birds are pushing them from the nest. I have seen this same thing lots of times and it has nothing to do with snakes. There is absolutly no way a snake could get into my lofts. The snake would also not leave the birds alive in the middle of the floor. You said they were cold, well this is how babies die when the parents leave them. When you found the broken eggs they were probably right under the nest where they came from because they were pushed out. It is your birds and if you have a bunch of them on the floor nesting you will have problems.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> not true, I had a black snake try to coil around my chicken and he was going to try to swallow it, lucky hens make alot of noise, I raced out there and he had the chicken in shock and was trying to gulp him down....it would of killed both of them, I have seen dead birds that snakes have expelled also...those big snakes in africa or south America, I have seen programs where they tried to eat a deer and died doing it. so I still think it is a very small snake and when he comes in, eggs get tossed around becouse the pigeons are freaking out and it is dark, and that would exlpain eggs being missing too.
> a 8 to 10 day old squab may be too much for him to handle, they are as big as a small apple at that point.



I had 40 adult snakes at one time and some were those large african south american type and what you are talking about is rare. I have seen 1000's of snake meals so I have an idea what I am talking about. Maybe that snake could have ate your chicken people are very suprised at what a snake can eat. Also he was not going to eat it yet cause it was still alive maybe it was going to kill it to protect itself and not even try to eat it. If it was threatened it might try to kill it but not eat it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ohiogsp said:


> I had 40 adult snakes at one time and some were those large african south american type and what you are talking about is rare. I have seen 1000's of snake meals so I have an idea what I am talking about. Maybe that snake could have ate your chicken people are very suprised at what a snake can eat. Also he was not going to eat it yet cause it was still alive maybe it was going to kill it to protect itself and not even try to eat it. If it was threatened it might try to kill it but not eat it.


He was trying to eat it, black snakes are not constrictors, so he was in position to eat the chicken and there is no way he could of, it was at night so the chicken did not know what was happening he was frozen. like I said I have found birds expelled from a snake, they are kind of squeezed like a bowling pin and have wet or slimy appearance, sorry if that offends anyone, it is pretty gross, the bird was left on the floor as he could not handle the bird I guess, all I know is the bird was there and it was obviouse a snake had tried to eat it. your snake meals are in a controlled enviroment and you give them the proper size food. snakes in the wild will and do try to bite off more than they can chew it is a fact......but his problemo could be what you are saying as well. he just needs to check out all the possibilities. and a snake is one of them, a pigeon does not make eggs disappear, so perhaps he has both things going on. And by the way some snakes will only eat live meals, esp. wild caught ones.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good grief. I am anxious to see what the baby monitor shows. The suspence is killing me.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Here you go read "click the link" under feeding and you will see it is a constrictor. "Almost" every snake on the planet that is not poisoous is a constrictor. There are other snakes such as "Egg Eaters" that eat eggs whole and don't have to kill anything but snakes that are not constrictors are extremely rare. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaphe_obsoleta


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

ohiogsp said:


> I had 40 adult snakes at one time and some were those large african south american type and what you are talking about is rare. I have seen 1000's of snake meals so I have an idea what I am talking about. Maybe that snake could have ate your chicken people are very suprised at what a snake can eat. Also he was not going to eat it yet cause it was still alive maybe it was going to kill it to protect itself and not even try to eat it. If it was threatened it might try to kill it but not eat it.


I too know snakes but also pigeons. The snake is eating your eggs but because all your nests are on the ground the pigeons are freaking out with the snake in the loft on the floor and them not being able to see well. Along with the adults, babies are trying to run away and fall out of the nest then some are pulled and pushed a few feet from the nest by all the freaking out. they also may try to find their way back and go the wrong way until they are too weak to move. The snake, seeing no threat from the birds, is moving from nest to nest searching for eggs and may even push babies out as he is moving thru.

Key point here is all the facts you gave us. 
1. missing eggs.
2. young away from the nest cold and sometimes dead.
3. no bloodly bodies or half eaten young.

So the only animals that would eat eggs and not kill the babies are snakes. 

Build nest boxes and get the nest off the floor,
Tony


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ohiogsp said:


> Here you go read "click the link" under feeding and you will see it is a constrictor. "Almost" every snake on the planet that is not poisoous is a constrictor. There are other snakes such as "Egg Eaters" that eat eggs whole and don't have to kill anything but snakes that are not constrictors are extremely rare.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaphe_obsoleta


well that is what I used to think, and I used to think they would not eat something too big for them, but now I know different because I have seen it with my own eyes. This was a black snake not a black rat snake, which does constrict. here is a paragraph from information online about the black snake or black racer, here you go read.

Racers are fast moving, highly active, diurnal snakes. Their diet consists primarily of rodents, frogs, and lizards, and some subspecies are known to climb trees in order to eat eggs and young birds. Juveniles often consume soft-bodied insects, such as crickets and moths. Despite their scientific name of constrictor, they do not really employ constriction, instead simply subduing struggling prey by pinning it bodily, pressing one or two coils against it to hold it in place instead of actually suffocating it. Most smaller prey items are simply swallowed alive. 


full article link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coluber_constrictor


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ohiogsp said:


> It is not a snake like I said. Why would a snake pull a baby from the nest over and over and not eat it?? If the snake swallowed it you would be able to tell (for sure).


Not so, because my friend who had some very healthy babies, found them dead on the floor the next day-quite a few of them, and several eggs missing, AND he actually caught the snakes inside the coop.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> Not so, because my friend who had some very healthy babies, found them dead on the floor the next day-quite a few of them, and several eggs missing, AND he actually caught the snakes inside the coop.


For some reason, I suspected that some time would be spent discussing if a snake did in fact, eat or attempt to eat something. I think it could be a possibility. 

Which is why I suggested that the loft be made predator proof, and that way this possibility could be crossed off the list. I certainly could not sleep at night, thinking a predator common to my area, could simply walk or crawl into my breeding loft. Rather then gamble that it might be something else, I would be having that fixed ASAP ! Once that is complete 110%, and the situation stops...well, that may suggest it was a snake. 

If it turns out to be something else, and not a snake, well then you will have some peace of mind.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

It is a snake for sure 100 percent just put 1/4 mesh wire over your open areas and all your problems will be solved. lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> For some reason, I suspected that some time would be spent discussing if a snake did in fact, eat or attempt to eat something. I think it could be a possibility.
> 
> Which is why I suggested that the loft be made predator proof, and that way this possibility could be crossed off the list. I certainly could not sleep at night, thinking a predator common to my area, could simply walk or crawl into my breeding loft. Rather then gamble that it might be something else, I would be having that fixed ASAP ! Once that is complete 110%, and the situation stops...well, that may suggest it was a snake.
> 
> If it turns out to be something else, and not a snake, well then you will have some peace of mind.


DITTO!!!!!


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> DITTO!!!!!


I also agree, just not as loud. 

Tony


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> For some reason, I suspected that some time would be spent discussing if a snake did in fact, eat or attempt to eat something. I think it could be a possibility.
> 
> Which is why I suggested that the loft be made predator proof, and that way this possibility could be crossed off the list. I certainly could not sleep at night, thinking a predator common to my area, could simply walk or crawl into my breeding loft. Rather then gamble that it might be something else, I would be having that fixed ASAP ! Once that is complete 110%, and the situation stops...well, that may suggest it was a snake.
> 
> If it turns out to be something else, and not a snake, well then you will have some peace of mind.


 Yes that is the smart thing to do, I mentioned that in the 4th post, but I guess it got missed. but I think Grim did see it.


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