# Tarsometatarsus fracture and something else



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Two days ago I brought home a pigeon with a broken lower leg and possible internal injuries, because when it moved there was a sound like cartilage clicking coming from the body itself. I gave him Metacam and began a course of antibiotics and, handling him with extreme care, put a "plastic spoon handle" splint on his leg according to the instructions in this forum. To my great surprise he was able and willing to eat and drink, but, not knowing the extent of his injuries, I was afraid he wouldn't last the night. I think he was hit by a car.
At the time his foot was discoloured, limp and rather cold, and the leg, between knee and foot was like rubber, as though there was no bone at all there -- rather frightening. I have no experience of this, do you think the tarsometatarsus was shattered, or was it the swelling?
To avoid putting weight on the bad leg, I made him a very soft "nest" so that he can lie down with his chest and the area just before the vent fully supported, and with a hollow for his legs, and the food and drink within reach without having to move. At nest-changing and antibiotic time this morning, he looked very perky (and growly!) and his foot is not nearly as discoloured as it was before, and neither do the toes look as limp. There was no cartilage creaking, either. Could he really be getting better?
I would appreciate any advice on this, especially regarding the strange (for me) symptoms, and whether I should give him any more Metacam.

This is the unlucky pigeon, *Ritchie*, this morning.


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

It sounds like you are doing just fine Theresa.

Be careful with the Meloxicam however, the dose is 0.1mg/kg body weight so it is very very easy to over dose. Overdose will kill. What sort of antibiotic are you giving and in what dose/interval?

Fractures of tarsusmetotarsus are often scary but they come back together if you just immobilze the joint with a splint and just leave it in place for three weeks. The clicking sound is often a panicky bird that is winded. Internal injuries will show up in bloody stools, depression, eye blinking, abrasions on the sides of the rib cage. Not a lot you can do for that except wait, but it sounds like he is doing well if he is growling at you. Severely injured birds don't growl at all.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When you get a chance, could you get a picture from directly above the bird? I'd like to see how symmetrical the wings are. Seeing as how the wingtip of the left wing is kicked up a bit in relation to the other one, there might be another problem.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Teresa, I think I would leave off the Metacam. Usually, when their wings/legs are bandaged, the pain should not be as severe, if any, and particularly since you have him somewhat elevated with no pressure on his leg.

His foot looks nice and pink which is always a good sign to me.


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Thank you so much for your advice! Ritchie seems to be doing quite well. He's very alert and looks comfortable.
About the Metacam, I gave him one drop when I bandaged his leg and one drop 12 hrs. later and then no more. The antibiotic he's taking is Synulox, 5 mg every 12 hours (it's taken care of the Salmonella, too, his poops are almost normal now). Should I change to another antibiotic specifically for healing fractures?
About the wings, I will take a picture from above a.s.a.p. He seems to be able to use them both well, but I'll check.
(What would I do without you?  )


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi again Theresa,

Synulox is actually a compound drug of Amoxicyllin and Cluvanic Acid; it is great stuff for gut and respiratory infections but it will do nothing for the fracture. That area of the leg is pretty well supplied with blood and as long as the bird is getting enough food water and rest his own immune system should be able to ward off any problems. If you can feel the fracture area and if it is not unusually warm and swollen, you may want to think about stopping the Synulox as well. If you think he should have antibiotic consider Metronidazole.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi again Theresa,
> 
> Synulox is actually a compound drug of Amoxicyllin and Cluvanic Acid; it is great stuff for gut and respiratory infections but it will do nothing for the fracture. That area of the leg is pretty well supplied with blood and as long as the bird is getting enough food water and rest his own immune system should be able to ward off any problems. If you can feel the fracture area and if it is not unusually warm and swollen, you may want to think about stopping the Synulox as well. If you think he should have antibiotic consider Metronidazole.




Hi Grimaldy, 


Metronidazole is not actually an Antibiotic...but rather, it is an Anti-Protozoan ,and also is effective for Anaerobes...and is used for treating Canker, and also ohhhhhhhh, mind went blank, uhhhh, Giardia I think.

It would not be used in place of Antibiotics proper, but, can be used along with them.



If 'smelly' diarrhea were what one was suspecting as possible Salmonella, 'Giardia' could cause these also I believe.


Best wishes...

Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Teresa said:


> Thank you so much for your advice! Ritchie seems to be doing quite well. He's very alert and looks comfortable.
> About the Metacam, I gave him one drop when I bandaged his leg and one drop 12 hrs. later and then no more. The antibiotic he's taking is Synulox, 5 mg every 12 hours (it's taken care of the Salmonella, too, his poops are almost normal now). Should I change to another antibiotic specifically for healing fractures?
> About the wings, I will take a picture from above a.s.a.p. He seems to be able to use them both well, but I'll check.
> (What would I do without you?  )


Hi Teresa, 



Leg fractures where the Bone ends have not broken out through the skin, would not usually see the patient on an antibiotic regimen.

And, so long as the Leg is stabalized, and the Bone ends are brought together so they are touching in a proper alignment, the Leg heals with no need of any medicication.


Rest, easy surrounds, comfort, just as you are so nicely providing, should see the Leg healed 'enough' in about two weeks or so, maybe three depending, for the Splint to be removed, and he will favor it or limp for a while, and, gradually it will finish healing slowly in use, gain back it's strangth, till one can not tell it was ever effected.


Depending on the kind of break it is, if the Bone was broken across so there are two distinct 'ends' which have to join, making especially sure the ends are brought together and pressing lightly against eachother so the long bone is stariht also, will see a good healing/mending.

If the ends are not aligned right or have a gap, or if the ends shift to be side by side, the mending cannot progress correctly and various delays or complications or mis-fortunes can result.



Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Au contraire,

Metronidazole is used often for an anti-protazoal, but it is a highly effective true bacteriocide, especially against anerobic bacteria. See Merck Manual among others. Its effectiveness as an antibiotic is found in the fact that it is selectively taken up by bacteria, which converts it to an enzyme that disrupts the DNA of the bacteria, preventing DNA replication within the bacteria. No replication, no cellular function, end of bacterial cell. Its great strength is not only that it works well for anerobes but that it has remarkable penetration, one of the first qualities to be considered in the selection of an antibiotic. If your drug can not reach the site of the infection, ie Amoxycillin in the leg, it is not going to do anything for you.

Funny, but Pidgey posted an execellent little sticky on this drug, I guess you missed it.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Grimaldy said:


> Au contraire,
> 
> Metronidazole is used often for an anti-protazoal, but it is a highly effective true bacteriocide, especially against anerobic bacteria. See Merck Manual among others. Its effectiveness as an antibiotic is found in the fact that it is selectively taken up by bacteria, which converts it to an enzyme that disrupts the DNA of the bacteria, preventing DNA replication within the bacteria. No replication, no cellular function, end of bacterial cell. Its great strength is not only that it works well for anerobes but that it has remarkable penetration, one of the first qualities to be considered in the selection of an antibiotic. If your drug can not reach the site of the infection, ie Amoxycillin in the leg, it is not going to do anything for you.
> 
> Funny, but Pidgey posted an execellent little sticky on this drug, I guess you missed it.




I was not aware that Metronidazole is formally classified as an 'Antibiotic'...and I have never heard it spoken of as an 'Antibiotic'.


I have never heard of it being prescribed for Bacterial infections.


Thanks for the info


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Grimaldy, 




I a not really sure what you are trying to say here -


Are you saying we should use 'Metronidazole' for treating suspected Pasturella, Staff, Salmonella, Paratyphoid, Strep, and other suspected or confirmed systemic or local infections, by adminstering 'Metronidazole' instead of other Medicines which usually are refered to as 'Antibiotics', or should we cease refering to them by name as the specific kinds of ( usually refered to as ) 'Antibiotics' which traditionally have been found useful for respective infection conditions?


Or...???


It is one thing if Metronidazole is a useful Antibiotic in an incidental way, but as for me, I would rather that we refer to it by name, than to expect people to guess that we mean 'Metronidazole' when we say 'Antibiotic'.

And I know of no predecents of Metronidazole being used to treat systemic Pasturella or lots of other things which 'Antibbiotics' are usually used for treating.


I appreciate your information, maybe not the 'tone' it was given in, but the information part is interesting...but, why is it even necessary to insist we start calling Metronidazole an 'Antibiotic' or to ake sweeping cliams which suggest it is good for all things that erstwhile 'Antibiotics' are specificaly used for?


Why not just call it by name? and allow it to be known also, that it has antibtiotic qualities for some applications?




Phil
l v


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> I was not aware that Metronidazole is formally classified as an 'Antibiotic'...and I have never heard it spoken of as an 'Antibiotic'.
> 
> 
> I have never heard of it being prescribed for Bacterial infections.
> ...


It's true.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> It's true.




What's true?


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To pdpbison,

First let me offer my apologies if you found the tone of my reply offensive; that was not my intent.

The term "antibiotic" is a kind of generic term that the public associates with everything from antifungals, anti-bacterials and anti-viral medications. From the perspective of the physician and the pharmacist there are certain questions that must be addressed in the selection of a drug to combat, say a bacterial infection. First the drug of choice must be able to disable, disrupt or prevent the growth of the bacterium in question, so accurate identification of the bacteria is important. Certain drugs, known as antibiotic, have no effect at all on certain species of bacteria. Second it must have the quality of being able to reach the site of the infection and get through to the bacteria; many species erect a "wall" to prevent the bodies immune system from getting at them (penetration). Third, it must be able to deliver a minimum level of drug in the bodies system quickly (MIC) that will eliminate the bacteria without undue injury to the host, its kidneys, liver, and organs.

As Pidgey pointed out in his sticky, Metronidazole is one of the most effective bacteriocides, a true killer, that is no longer licensed for use in humans as it has been implicated in causing cancer. There are in fact many such very effective drugs that are no longer used, such as the sulfanilomides, a group of antibacterials for which bacteria can not develop a resistance, but have fallen out of favor for various reasons.

Sorry to be so long about this, I hope it is helpful.


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

BYTW attached is the link from the Veterinarian's Merck Manual decribeing the antibacterial properties of Metronidazole:http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/191284.htm


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Crap, I don't remember posting a sticky about Metronidazole... Feralpigeon did--I think it's in the Sick & Injured section and has "Nitroimidazoles" in the name.

Simply put, different antibiotics get different things and none of them get everything. Nitroimidazoles, of which Metronidazole is only one, get a few bacteria and have other interesting effects. They get some things that Baytril doesn't get and are often used for abdominal infections against anaerobic infections like Clostridium species, which cause tetanus, gangrene and botulism (there are quite a few nasty ones in that family).

Metronidazole works well in necrotic tissue, too, as it migrates through the stuff on its own. Some antibiotics suffer from the "inoculum effect", where a lot more is required than normal if the bacterial presence is greater. I don't think the efficacy of Metronidazole is as affected by the inoculum effect as many other antibiotics. It's still not going to help against what it doesn't fight, though.

Pidgey


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

My goodness, here I am attributing great things to you and now I find that you are correct it was Feralpigeon that posted it. I hesitate to take back the nice things I said about you.


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Hi again, thanks for all your advice. I'll bear in mind the recommendations about Metronidazole (I've got Flagyl only, can't get Spartrix over here) but his poops are totally back to normal, so I'm keeping him off medication from now. If his immune system is as good as his growling, he can probably look after himself well! 

Pidgey, I tried to get a decent photo from above but his majesty wouldn't stay still, so I had to put him back in his nest and try my best. When I hold him the wings look symmetrical (in the split second between wing-slapping me and trying to take off!) but, at rest, he seems to use his left wing as a crutch, to take some of the weight.
Here are the pics.



















Phil, I'm still worried about the nature of the fracture, because I couldn't feel the bone (if you can, have a look at my original post). I had to work 'blind' in my attempts to line up a bone I couldn't feel, that's why I was so pleasantly surprised when some colour and feeling started returning to his foot. But I feared the bone might have been shattered in more than one place.
Well, the little fellow is a fighter, that's for sure. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Teresa said:


> Pidgey, I tried to get a decent photo from above but *his majesty *wouldn't stay still,


Teresa, please remember to capitalize "His Majesty" in the future--it's standard protocol, you know, for Royalty.

Well, you did good enough with one of those pictures and it looks fine to me. We're probably setting better on the wing than I was thinking. He seems to be doing fine in resting (as Royalty should) so he might just heal up fine when all's said and done. They usually start standing after a week or so and start putting a little weight on the affected legs and feet within a couple or so. It takes about a month before they get to the point where you can't tell anything ever happened. Of course, they can break 'em a lot worse and never get back to normal.

If that happens in this case, then I'm afraid His Majesty might be suffering your service for a bit longer.

Pidgey


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Teresa, please remember to capitalize "His Majesty" in the future--it's standard protocol, you know, for Royalty.
> Pidgey


Whoops, there goes my OBE! 

Thanks for the advice, Pidgey.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi all,

I'm going to hijack this thread for a moment to ask a question.

I have a pigeon who had a tarsometatarsus fracture. I'm not sure if there was a break in more than one place, but there was a lot of swelling initially along with an abrasion on the footpad and a laceration on the leg. He had a splint put on that was changed after a week. As of last Friday, the leg was still swollen, but the bone felt set. There was a slight bulge where I presume the break was and the bone calcified, but the leg didn't seem to bother him despite the swelling. He got a 10-day course of Baytril as well as Metacam for about a week. 

He's been bearing weight on the splinted leg well and is *very* eager to leave (I know he has a mate out there because he's a flock regular and I've seen them together). My question: how soon can I release him? It's been suggested to keep the splint on for another week (that would mean I can take it off on Friday), then to keep him on cage rest for another week after that, but is it absolutely necessary? He's going out of his mind being confined.

Thanks,
Jennifer


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Explaining how it's in their best interest doesn't do much good either...

Have you tried dimming the lights to sedate him a little?

Pidgey


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

I usually cover his carrier when he gets too agitated. 

I take your response to mean that it would be better to keep him for the full three weeks? Is there a chance he'd refracture the bone if I released him after two?

Thanks!
Jennifer


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Teresa said:


> Phil, I'm still worried about the nature of the fracture, because I couldn't feel the bone (if you can, have a look at my original post). I had to work 'blind' in my attempts to line up a bone I couldn't feel, that's why I was so pleasantly surprised when some colour and feeling started returning to his foot. But I feared the bone might have been shattered in more than one place.
> Well, the little fellow is a fighter, that's for sure. Fingers crossed.



Hi Teresa, 



I understand...

Usually there is a considerable swelling which surrounds the broken or cracked area, and the rather thickened and 'rubbery' nature of the swelling does tend to make it diffuclt to feel what sort of details are inside of it.

How the Leg moves while one is investigating this, can give some clues to the kind of break it is, and or if it is straight across or running somewhat along the length, as it were.

As long as one gets the Leg aligned about right for how it is supposed to be if in that 'bent' position, not 'turned' in or out, the muscles themselves will contribute to the align to some degree, once it is stabalized in the Splint.


Having the Leg aligned ( in both it's axis ) by 'eye' and seeing to it that the broken 'ends' are in fact together but noting the length of that section of leg in comparison to the other Leg...or pushing gently to bring the conjectural 'ends' together, doing this in the manner of splinting and taping, if it is a straight-across sort of break, or otherwise, is about all one can do, unless one "X-Rays" the leg in it's completed Splint arrangement, for being able to then 'see' just what the Bone fracture and or Bone ends are doing in the Splint.


Was this break close to the Joint? Or mid length in the long Bone?


Of course, when there is a break right next to the Joint, it is more difficult to obtain a good set or align and stabilization, since it is a lot harder to tell where one is at with what one is doing splint-wise and in taping the Splint for the Leg to be correctly brought together...but the same general observances apply...if the Leg looks too 'short' there, it probably is, and the 'ends' may have got paralell rather then 'meeting' rightly end-to-end, and so on.



Thats about all I can think of for now...


So in other words, you probably did just fine, and this is not 'easy' for anyone to do anyway..!



And, if you like, have a look to see if the effected leg is in the same position it would be if it were not broken, but were just in this position.


If the lower Leg is turned out, or turned in, or if that section of length is too 'long', if it does not 'match' the other Leg when it is brought into the same position, then, there would be reason to re-do the setting and splinting in order for the effected Leg to assume the same overall manner of position and attitude, length and align to the body, of a 'good' leg which is in that position.





If it looks the same as what the Other Legs and Foot would be doing if bent into this position, then chances are, things are proceeding just fine...and you had done a good job of setting it.



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Frankly, I've seen some youngsters around here that had broken legs and I could never catch them. I watched this gorgeous one (stunning feathering) hop and limp around for weeks. He got better completely without my help, thank you very much. So, they CAN be let go and they'll probably be alright. You just hate to take the chance. I guess it's a deal where if you need to clear another hospital bed for a sicker one then don't worry about him--let him go. Otherwise, keep him. I usually like to see them walking on it with a slight limp but not a real bad one but they could go long before that and they'd be alright as long as the weather's not too bad (windstorms and the like).

Pidgey


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, I had the bright idea of transferring him to a small cage (of which I only have one) from his carrier tonight, and it seems to have helped his mental state, so maybe he'll tolerate another week with me after all.

The leg pic is from Friday when his splint was changed.

The other pic is from today. Isn't he handsome??! He's quite a nice bird--not afraid of me at all. (As you can see, he's started removing his splint himself; I haven't rewrapped it because it still feels secure and I'm going to take it off soon anyway.)


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm going to hijack this thread for a moment to ask a question.
> 
> ...



Hi Jennifer, 



The swelling tends to remain for quite some time gradually receeding after the Bone has mended.

I'd say, keep him in a free-fly indoor setting for a couple weeks anyway so you can see how he continues to do...make sure his Wings are strong, poops 'good' and reflexes and demeanor seem good.


I usually keep anyone who had other than String-Feets, for a Month or six-week, just to be sure they are fit and solid and strong before releasing.


Often, a Broken Leg is the only issue an otherwise fit and able Pigeon has, so, a couple weeks ought to be fine, or, if you are really hard pressed for room, a week anyway...so by then he would have been with you say, three-weeks to a Month at the very least, total, to make sure all is well with him.

Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Well, I had the bright idea of transferring him to a small cage (of which I only have one) from his carrier tonight, and it seems to have helped his mental state, so maybe he'll tolerate another week with me after all.
> 
> The leg pic is from Friday when his splint was changed.
> 
> The other pic is from today. Isn't he handsome??! He's quite a nice bird--not afraid of me at all. (As you can see, he's started removing his splint himself; I haven't rewrapped it because it still feels secure and I'm going to take it off soon anyway.)




Hi jenfer,


Looks like nice Work...and definitely a lovely friendly and handsome Pigeon..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Isn't he handsome??! He's quite a nice bird--not afraid of me at all. QUOTE]
> 
> He's gorgeous, Jennifer! And he seems to be doing really well. It's hard to choose between letting him go back to his mate and giving him the best possible chance of healing properly, but I'm sure your intuition will suggest the best compromise.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks, Teresa! I think part of the reason why he's been so eager to leave is because he knows how enchanting he is and is afraid I'll fall in love with him and hold him hostage here  (I confess to subjecting him to a few head-kisses.)

I've decided to release him this coming Monday; tomorrow will be the 3-week mark from when I found him and he was splinted, but I'd like to give him a couple of days to fly around a bit (he's been on cage rest and has only flown on the two instances he performed an escape act).

How is your bird doing?

Jennifer


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

*He's standing!!!*

Ooooooooooh, look at this!










I nearly fell over backwards when I saw him standing on both legs! He still limps, of course, but it's a great improvement.

What doesn't improve is his temper. My oh my, never saw such a VICIOUS pigeon! He growls at everything that moves (especially me) and he pecks and wingslaps so much he sends everything flying -- food, water, grit, paper towels... it's unbelievable! Only stops when I close the door of the carrier. The only way to change his paper towels, food etc., is to grab him (right hand under his belly, feet dangling down between fingers, and left hand holding down wings and head) then immobilize him between right hand and chin, change everything with left hand while he bombards my lap with poop, grab him with both hands again, pop him at the back of the carrier very gently, and then remove hands FAST and close the door! I guess in 2 weeks time I'll need a suit of armour!
The pigeons at the park are really quite tame. Do you suppose he acts like this because he was injured by a human being?


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

No, he just does not know if you are only fattening him up to eat him. That is what creatures usually do to pigeons.

You will find that he will respond to gentle handling, slow movements, and speaking to him in a soft voice. Most of the time they do anyway, sometimes not. They inhabit a world of which every minute is devoted to survival, trying to find food and reproduction. Without survival the rest does not matter.

Good work, by the way! He may have the limp for some time to come, but at this point he is definitely ambulatory and can walk home if need be.


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Teresa,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Phil, I think the break was mid-length, that was where the leg felt more rubbery, and the lower part of the leg was turned in before I put the splint on it. Both legs seem the same length now, but he lifts the injured leg a bit to avoid putting pressure on it.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Yay! He looks pretty good!

I have one like that's aggressive like that too. In fact, the description you give matches her almost exactly, except she doesn't bombard my lap with poop, luckily for me. Luckily for her, she'll be able to go home soon.

I don't think the aggression is necessarily a sign that he's been hurt. I think that some birds are just naturally feisty and protective of themselves. I actually feel good about releasing those birds when it comes time, because it's so clear that they are feeling well and that they want out. 

There are some birds in the flock that have known me literally for years and have eaten out of my hand, yet if I handle them (to remove string, for instance), they act like I'm trying to kill them. Then there are others from the same flock who are so relaxed, they don't even blink when being handled. Their personalities really run the gamut, in my experience.

Jennifer


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Grimaldy said:


> No, he just does not know if you are only fattening him up to eat him. That is what creatures usually do to pigeons.
> 
> You will find that he will respond to gentle handling, slow movements, and speaking to him in a soft voice. Most of the time they do anyway, sometimes not. They inhabit a world of which every minute is devoted to survival, trying to find food and reproduction. Without survival the rest does not matter.
> 
> Good work, by the way! He may have the limp for some time to come, but at this point he is definitely ambulatory and can walk home if need be.


I've been doing all the things you recommend, but he's very defensive, totally different from Piper (same provenance) who readily accepted food and drink from my hand from day one. He's probably just a very feisty dominant male then. At least he'll be quite capable of taking care of himself when he's released.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm just laughing my hiney off...

Pidgey


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

*Ritchie, 5 minutes ago*










See what I mean? This photo was taken with the carrier door open (unlike the other ones here, taken through the bars), and this is his *en garde!* stance...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Teresa said:


> Ooooooooooh, look at this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Teresa, 



This is typical of a Male and even some quite young ones will be this way.

Hens are usually more obliging or demure.


And at his phase, it is probably a combination of his feeling 'cornered', and, defending what he feels is his private space...and, of feeling confident enough in himself, and accepting of you as a sort of 'peer' whose threat level is no worse than another Pigeon's would be.

If he runs up TO bite and Wing Slap you, he is defending his space from intrusion...


If he backs up first, then does this, or is not meeting you at the door with it, he is feeling a little 'cornered' and defending his space also.


The 2nd image suggests this latter scenario.


Low ( below his eye level ) 'slow' Hands...asking his permission first, and waiting a few oments before entering, in order to 'enter' his space...can usually change this, so he will just stand there and let you change Water and Seeds without incident.


Not always...or, those we can manage to negotiate this with, will allow it, and those we do not manage to negotiate this with, will still run up and attack us...


Lol...



Nice going..!


Glad to see the Leg coming along so nicely..!


Phil
l v


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I'm just laughing my hiney off...
> 
> Pidgey


I just bet you are, Pidgey...must sound very familar to you...since this behavior can be quite the "male" thing! 

Bet Lin can relate...you probably do the same thing when you are not feeeling well and she tries to help! My condolences to Lin! 

Now, I'm ROFLMAO... 

Shi

GLAD to hear things are going well with your feisty one, Teresa!! I can relate since Squeaks can sure give me a "beaking" and well placed Wing-Fu smacks!


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> I just bet you are, Pidgey...must sound very familar to you...since this behavior can be quite the "male" thing!
> 
> Bet Lin can relate...you probably do the same thing when you are not feeeling well and she tries to help! My condolences to Lin!
> 
> ...


Well, good for Pidgey, if everyone in the world was tame we'd die of boredom!


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Teresa,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's definitely the second scenario, so he's being defensive rather than aggressive! I'll try the 'hands below his eye level' routine. All these fine points of pigeon behaviour are fascinating -- and I'm starting to suspect a lifetime mat not be enough to learn them!


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Teresa said:


> It's definitely the second scenario, so he's being defensive rather than aggressive! I'll try the 'hands below his eye level' routine. All these fine points of pigeon behaviour are fascinating -- and I'm starting to suspect a lifetime mat not be enough to learn them!




Hi Teresa,




Yahhhh...do everything s-l-o-w-l-y...hands low, right on the cage/basket floor even...


Before entering, make eye contact, offer compliments about how well he is doing with the Leg, how Handsome he is, how much you admire him...how he is a big strong fellow and how you wish to have him let you enter now and then for you to a few things for his Housekeeping.


Then, ask his permission to enter, so you can change out his Seed and Water Bowls or whatever...and having asked, pause a little, then proceed...


Hi might just move back and raise the far Wing to give notice that he feels you are tresspassing, and that he feels intimidated somewhat...and if so, just do the Seed Water change as described, and 'nod' to him off and on, re-iterating or narrating how you are wanting his accessories to be clean and nice because you like him much...and thatyou appreciate his letting you do this.


You can also hold the fresh about to be dellivered Seed Bowl up to your Mouth and sort of pretend to be eating, saying "Mmmm! Oh yeah, nice Seeds...really yummy..." and so on...

Then, look at him, and say, "Oh! Would you like some also?"


Then set the Seed Bowl into his space, and 'peck' with your crook'd index finger from on 'low', and see what he does.


After a few times of doing that, he might just walk up and peck with you...where, after a few seconds, you can gently withdraw and leave him to his Seeds...

And if he does that, then he will soon just let you do whatever you need to and likely just stand there and not be as worried about it.


Or, he will gain more confidence and run up and bite and Wing Slap you...


Lol...


Some of 'mine' do..!


And thats fine...it shows they do not feel I am anything to worry about, just that I need to be chastised for my tresspasses...same as any othyer Pigeon would be if they tresspassed.


One can work with these also of coursse, but unless there is a reason to, I just let them be that way, since they are going to be released, and they will not have to put up with me for very long anyway.


But the ones who feel a little threatened, I usually try and find ways of easing that, so they will not worry when I have to come in and fuss with things.



Have fun..!


Phil
l v


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Phil,

It's really wonderful that you treat the birds with such awareness of and respect for their being. I'm sure the birds appreciate your both taking the time to explain things to them and asking their permission to do things for them. 

I wish everyone interacted with animals this way--the world would be such a different place from what it is now.

Jennifer


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Teresa,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It worked, it definitely worked! He didn't become tame, but he definitely became a lot less hostile! Only went for my hand when it was less than 6 inches or so away from him.

He's since been successfully released, and as soon as I can I will post pictures / release video here.

Meanwhile, after your advice, I think I'm ready to adopt a hypogriff!


----------



## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Hey Girl!!! Gold star for you today too. Actually releasing a bird after such a delicate repair is so heartwarming. Well done, Teresa.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great news, Teresa, and well done! I'll look forward to the photos and video!

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Teresa said:


> Meanwhile, after your advice, I think I'm ready to adopt a hypogriff!


Being clueless as to what a hypogriff might be, I had to look it up  http://browse.deviantart.com/?section=browse&order=9&qh=&q=hypogriff#

Terry


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

*Approaching a Hypogriff*



TAWhatley said:


> Being clueless as to what a hypogriff might be, I had to look it up  http://browse.deviantart.com/?section=browse&order=9&qh=&q=hypogriff#
> 
> Terry


The whole gently, gently, procedure reminded me of the hypogriff in the third Harry Potter movie, a fierce and proud half-bird, half-horse creature that you should never attempt to approach without first bowing low and waiting for his permission to get closer -- otherwise he would gore you!
That was the kind of behaviour to adopt when dealing with Ritchie the Terror!


----------



## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

*Up, up and away*

And here is my bad-tempered but wonderful Ritchie, all healed up and ready to take on the world!










And this is the release video -- he went straight to where the largest flock was being fed, not because he was hungry, but because he must always be centre-stage, lol.

http://s333.photobucket.com/albums/m381/Skbllz/Pigeons/?action=view&current=DSCN7120-Free.flv

He sends many thanks (and perhaps the odd peck!) to everyone here at Pigeon-Talk who advised me on how to treat him and rooted for him!


----------

