# Pigeon with hole in throat, antibiotic dosage needed quick!



## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Found what I thought was a pigeon with a broken leg, I just discovered a giant hole in his throat, I'm not sure what this hole is, if it's into his crop, throat, no clue, but it is into his body. (I failed a proper injury search, the wound was well tucked under his chest feathers) I had the bird for a day and a half before this discovery, I smelled infection yesterday. I have one amoxicillin pill, large, white, has a 93 on the back and a 22-75 on the front. Can I use this? Time is of the essence, I know I should go to a vet but I'm jobless as of now so that's not in the stars. 

How do I break up the pill to give it to him? I will get a weight shortly


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Can't find my gram scale (we just moved, boxes galore). The bird, shockingly, is eating, drinking, pooping and talking (he's rather snarky actually). Ive pretty much exhausted my resources searching for antibiotics, this is the only pill I have. I'm going to keep hunting for the scale...it's in here somewhere.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I gave him some amoxicillin mixed with water, it leaked out the hole...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

If you definitely can't get to a vet..........this is what I would do. First you need to find out how many mg that amoxycillin pill is. The dose for an adult pigeon would be 50mg divided daily (25mg twice a day). Clavamox would be a better choice, but if you don't have it, amoxi is better than nothing.
I would clean the wound. Make a paste out of 1/2 raw honey and 1/2 sugar. The honey has antibiotic properties and the sugar will help it harden in place. That will help seal the puncture so you can give antibiotics. Hope this helps


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

The pill is 875 mg, thank you! I think the hole is too big to cover, it is about the size of a quarter


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Here are some pictures

First, her pretty face







. This was just an hour after being here, her face has softened towards me. I think she's slowly grasping I am not all bad news. I also don't normally dump food in front of them like that, her food is now in a dish. Thinking she couldn't walk I thought pecking at the food on the ground would seem more natural for her.

The wound. That is a soybean, at first I thought it was some kind of organ and was afraid to touch it. The bean was the first clue things were spilling right out of her (I do not feed soybeans, this was from her life as a wild bird)
















The pictures are bad, but basically that is the entry to her body cavity, a large tube.
Here are some if the poops I'm seeing, some are completely white, some completely green, almost like a green stain. She is still pooping daily. I think some food and water are able to pass.









When she drinks water she acts strange, like it is very uncomfortable. She sits completely upright and swallows many times. Her cage is soaked every day. I'm not sure if she is desperately dehydrated and futily drinking water that leaks out or spilling her water. I just changed dishes to something larger as i was worried with her broken leg and wing shed drown, I had a small dish which was empty multiple times a day with a soaked cage. I put a large dish in and the cage is soaked and the water is not gone.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That is really a big, gaping hole! It does look like it could be stitched up pretty well though. Any chance you could get a vet to do only that for you? Just stitch up the hole? If so, there is a very good chance of a full recovery with you giving the antibiotics and also treating the stitched wound with the honey and sugar mixture suggested by Msfreebird. 

With no stitching, it's going to be extremely difficult to pull off a save with this bird. Not impossible but definitely difficult as everything is going to leak out through the hole .. food, meds, water .. everything is just going to pour out of the hole. Do try the honey and sugar and see if you can start to get that hole to close up.

Thank you so much for helping, and please keep us posted.

Terry


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## lg5555 (Aug 2, 2013)

*past thread might be willful*

Hi i found this past thread - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/help-found-injured-white-pigeon-with-chest-wound-48900.html

Helpful spellcheck changed word


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Otis, if you are not able to get to a vet you should help this bird and trying to close the hole in the crop. Sometimes crop wounds will close on their own, but I think this one is too large to do that and this bird will probably die.

Please follow my instructions to do this. 

Rinse the wound well with warm saline (1 teaspoon of salt to 500 ml of boiled, and then cooled to warm 104-108F water).

Cut back all feathers around wound, tweeze out feathers near edge if needed. Be careful not to tear tissue.

Dry the wound area, the crop has two areas, the crop tissue itself and the skin that covers the crop. Make sure to start at one end and start to close the wound with the Crazy Glue.

The droppings look the way they do because this bird is not getting any nourishment. 

MSfreebird's dose for the meds is good, 25mg, twice a day (every 12 hours, this is important) and yes Clavamox is the best option if you can buy a few pills from a pharmacy, you will also need 1cc syringe to give the Clavamox suspension. 

Let me know if you buy Clavamox and I will help you to make suspension, also let me know the strength pills.

Dana


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Isn't there a chance it could get in her throat, the glue?


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi Otis,

Not if you are careful. Here is a link to how to do it. The part you are interested in is towards the ends rinsing the crop well, drying, and then gluing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX_nXdFgDHk&feature=related

Make sure you put just a small hole in a un-opened Crazy glue tube with a pin, this will help you be able to control the amount of glue you apply.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I see in one of the photos you posted the food you are feeding, I see some small seeds, it would be good if you could use a colander strainer, with 2-3mm holes, to strain out the smaller seeds ( use colander, not a mesh strainer/sieve). The reason is it will be rough inside the crop and you do not want small seeds getting caught and closed over during healing. You could also add some dried green split peas to this birds mix.

I saw now that you mentioned you have 875 mg pills. I'll tell you how to prepare the suspension, so you can start as soon as possible with antibiotic.

Take one pill and crush into as fine a powder as you can. When the pill is ground up add 10ml of the honey or syrup to this and stir very well, you can use the 1cc syringe to the 1cc mark 10 times, or use a large syringe, 5 ml or 10 ml. After you stir very well you will have 87,5mg/ml Clavamox suspension, take the 1cc syringe and draw a 0.30cc dose (26,25mg), this will be to the third line and give this to your bird twice a day (every 12h). Stir very well before use and keep the suspension covered in a cool place.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Forgot to mention, once the wound is closed keep an eye out for any leaks and just rinse the area a bit, pat dry, put a little glue again and press the two tissue sides together to seal.

Keep the bird quite and let's hope for the best.

There are really only three choices here.

1.) The best, get the bird to the vet and have the wound properly debrided and then sutured closed.

2.) Do nothing, and this bird will almost certainly die as I think the wound is too big to close on its own and the bird will die from malnutrition and dehydration from not being able to keep food and water in.

3.) Do what we are trying to do and get the wound closed up, as best we can, with Crazy Glue and give the bird a chance to try and heal. The good thing is you have antibiotics which will help this a lot, by helping prevent any infection.

Dana


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

The wound now has a large ring around it, like lips, the color isnt bright or dark red like it was. It appears as though her body is trying to close it. The nasty smell is gone, so I believe the infection is at bay for now. Volturescu, thank you for the amoxicillin suspension, that will be much more affective then what I am doing right now! I'd like a second opinion on the crazy glue, not ruling it out but I am worried about locking infection in. I have given her some peas soaked in nuitri-cal puppy supplement. I think the idea of larger food is good. Right now she is eating vita dove, I'll give her some split peas, which are in the food, straight.

I'm working of getting a current picture uploaded.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)




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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Otis you are correct in saying it looks like her body is trying to close the wound, this what is happening. This is a better photo, the wound is not as bad as I thought I saw in your first pictures.

The location of the wound is important if it is higher up there is a better chance of just leaving it and letting close itself as I mentioned can happen earlier.

My worry is if it is lower then her food and most important her water, she is not getting enough. The droppings I saw earlier are called bile droppings which happen when a bird is not getting any food. If lower I think I would still bring the lower edge of the ring together and close with the Crazy glue, it does not look infected to me. In time the edge sticking out will dry and fall off. 

You have to decide if she getting enough food and water kept in, do this by looking at her droppings. Keep her on antibiotics for the next 10-14 days.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I do believe the wound is as bad as the first picture, the smell was infection, the wound was large, gaping, and about the size of a quarter. I have been giving antibiotics for three days now, and your suspension is much better then my trying to guess how to divide a large pill. I think the antibiotics have been working, as the wound started to change soon after. Would a larger variety of pictures help? I could try to get a better picture of where the wound is. (boyfriend just got home, that helps a lot for photos!) I 
will also get photos of the droppings I find when I clean her cage. she has been stuffing herself today. Pretty much stationed at the food bowl eating, when I pick her up the hole is overflowing with food. She is also much more snarky, which I take as a good sign.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Her actions sound good and I am glad you had antibiotics to give her. The important part to help you decide as I said if she is keeping in enough food and water in to keep her going until the wound closes on its own. If she is keeping in enough food, but almost all her water leaks out, then it may be best, as I mentioned to bring the edges together and close. She is in your hands so you have to decide, watch her drink does it all flow out what do her droppings look like, post photos.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Here are some droppings that were collected from her towel, the seeds just got stuck to them









Wound location


















I don't think water is staying with her at all. The cage is still soaked, the bowl half empty. I think she is packing herself full of food well enough something's may get through, I am worried about water.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

Thank you for the photos. The droppings show some food is making it through, but I am worried about water as well.

It is late and I have to go. I feel you are nervous with the glue, as an alternative you can tweeze back from around the wound 3/4-1" of feathers the breast feathers come out pretty easy you can use tweezers (support the wound area with fingers not to tear tissue). 

You then can use duct tape, cut a round circle to seal the hole, change as needed (but once a day for sure), make sure skin is very dry so tape sticks well, you can use a blow dryer to help this (careful with heat use low setting), press tape over hole. This should seal the hole on a temporary basis each day to help stop food and water not to leak out while letting the wound close. 

Do you have a scale or can borrow one, this bird looks quite light in the photos I would like to know her weight if possible in grams.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Good advice, if the glue will save her life, I'll do it. She is feeling quite thin, I can feel her keel bone and her cere is starting to get off colored. I do have a gram scale, but I have misplaced it in a recent move. I will look again tomorrow. With the cage towels needing to be replaced three or more times a day because they're soaked, and the water bowl being emptied, it seems as though water is not staying with her. I do believe she is packing herself full of food, her hole is overflowing when I pick her up. I gave her lentils and crushed unsalted peanuts today as I did not have a package of split peas, as well as the soft peas with the nutri-cal. Hoping some of this makes it into her before I make the next big decision.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I can only tell you what I would do if she were with me. I would tweeze out some feathers back from around the hole, 1/4", clean area very well with the sterile saline you made, dry well, and then I would carefully seal the hole closed with Crazy glue, the tape was just a way I thought of to try and keep things in. I as said I am not seeing infection, and I am not too concerned about infection with her on a very good antibiotic. I am more concerned with water and food. Please try and get a weight for her.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Today she had a giant clot of poop, about the size of a squished ping pong ball stuck to her backside. The poop was bright green and white. Cleaned her up. I don't know what this means, good or bad. Since she still has a broken leg, my guess is this is eight hours of poop laying in one place? Why the bright green color? She had a decent brown and white poop after she was cleaned up.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I've never used glue, so can't advise on that.
There's 2 purposes for the 'honey/sugar' mixture.
The honey has antibiotic properties and helps with the healing.
The sugar is added (1/2 each) to make a paste that will 'harden' on the wound, so that it will stay in place keeping the wound covered and protected while healing. This should also help things from leaking out.


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

I did attempt the sugar honey paste, but it didn't go well. She was wiggling and broke the "seal" many times, I was then worried large clump of sugar would fall in her crop and was unsure if that would have any negative affects. How long would it take to harden? How long should I hold her still? She is very snarky this morning, she bit me, stood on her one good leg, grunted, wing smacked me and even held her bad wing up in a "why I awda" manor. She's acting like a pigeon


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I am sorry, but as much as I wish it would I do not think sugar/honey will close this hole, the water she is leaking out will quickly dissolve this mix. In my opinion, all the glue will be doing is speeding up the closing of the hole by holding the tissue in place, making it stretch and close quicker, while keeping food and water in. As I mentioned, I do not see infection and with this bird on Clavamox this a much less of a worry. Unlike other wounds were you absolutely do not want to seal them, like an open abscess, there is no underlying infection to seal in.

This bird from your last photos is in very poor body condition and when a bird loses muscle mass it does it from all over, I suspect this bird had lost a lot of muscle in the legs and this may be a large factor in loss of use. What you describe with the droppings is pretty normal with a bird that can not move, you just have to clean when needed and it may of help to use a paper towel sheet under her and change out like a children's diaper.

I am not sure there is much more I can add to this thread at present, I will check in to see if you have any direct questions for me, but I can not say any more than I have said on what I would do.

Good luck,

Dana


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## Otis7 (Sep 1, 2012)

Vulturescu you have been extremely helpful and I am so grateful with your quick and informative responses. Thank you. Especially with your method of creating an antibiotic suspension and specific measurements. Much better then me guessing how to devise a pill x amount of times!

Were looking good today, good normal looking droppings. Wound seems a bit smaller. I may glue her tomorrow. The gram scale is still Mia, but I'm sure it's just burried in a box I have not found yet. Her leg is for sure broken, when I found her it was flopping about at the knee joint.


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## Vulturescu (Jun 6, 2010)

I know the focus of this thread has been on the crop wound, but can you give some information on how the leg is doing? It would be good to be able to get a weight on this bird, see if you can not find your scale. I am glad to help you if I can.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The hole IMO will heal on its own. Honey is a good tool to keep the bacteria from going inside.


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