# How many strains of racing homers are there?



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey guys  I've always been interested in racing homers even though I keep/kept rollers and highflyers. I was just wondering how many strains of racing pigeons are there? I know there are probably dozens but could someone maybe name the top 10 strains people prefer?

Number 1-10. 1 being the best strain people prefer. I know there are many more than 10 but yeah 


(This question is just out of curiosity hehe) Thanks


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Gurbir said:


> Hey guys  I've always been interested in racing homers even though I keep/kept rollers and highflyers. I was just wondering how many strains of racing pigeons are there? I know there are probably dozens but could someone maybe name the top 10 strains people prefer?
> 
> Number 1-10. 1 being the best strain people prefer. I know there are many more than 10 but yeah
> 
> ...


You will get lots of answers here because it will all be based on personal opinions. Probably the truest answer is that there are as many strains as there are breeders. Everyone that has ever put two birds together in an effort to breed better racers has left his/her mark on the sport (both positive and negative). Of course there are the famous ones like Jansen, Fabry, Staff Van Reet, Claessen, etc., etc. The list is endless. The real trick is to find a family of birds that have a successful history in the area you are interested in and then try to make your mark by breeding your own.

It really isn't a matter of a "Top 10" list.

Dan


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There are SO many different ones. And there really isn't a best or a worst, simply because the horse bred for the course wins the race. Everyone may have strains they do better with than others. Not to mention, just because two birds are labled the same strain, does not mean they are equal in quality.
Another thing to consider is distance. Some strains were bred more for speed, shorter distance, middle, long, extreme long, all around greatness, or even certain physical traits.

So I can't really give you a list of best to worst. BUT I can give you a list of as many as I can think of, and the distance they're typically best at 

Janssen - short-middle
Meuleman - short-middle
Jan Aarden - long
Stichelbaut - long
Sion - long
Staf Van Reet - short
Huysken Van Reil (HVR) - long
Van Wanroy - long
Van Elsacker - middle
Bekaert - middle

Annnnd there's so many more! -faints-


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here, if you want to learn about strains, here's a place with loads of articles on the fanciers who "made" them:
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/index.cfm


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## scooter1989 (Jul 19, 2011)

I like the sion strain. Because they are long distance flyers. They are pretty fast. I notice with this strain that, if the birds is Blue bar or a Check, they fly the best and the quickest. any birds that has mostly white or very light colors are just average speed. This might be with alot of other strian, but this is what I know from sion lol.


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

check out this article??

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Anything on black diamonds? Never could find anything on them...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> Anything on black diamonds? Never could find anything on them...


Must not have been that impressive. I suspect a guy somewhere who owned some black pigeons, decided to call them Black Diamonds. If there is not a buck to be made promoting some "strain", then like old soldiers, they just seem to fade away. 


Of course, you could start calling your birds Diamonds, or Rubys or whatever name you care to use. I have not heard of anyone copyrighting, or applying for some kind of genetic patent on their strain name. 

Best I can figure, there are quite a few thousand strains just here in the USA. Most of them no one has ever heard of and perhaps for good reason. For the most part, many of them are fairly typical pigeons. And when the founder of the strain dies, so does the "strain". Then there is the issue of the misnamed "strains"...but I digress.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Well, I see the name thrown out there a lot "Black Diamonds" but I've never seen any online that are good black pigeons, have you? Thats what I'd like to see and hopefully have is good black pigeons.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

If I remember correctly CBS sells (or they used to sell) Black Diamonds. Might check their website and see if they still do.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> Well, I see the name thrown out there a lot "Black Diamonds" but I've never seen any online that are good black pigeons, have you? Thats what I'd like to see and hopefully have is good black pigeons.


 Well, if I decided I wanted to own some black pigeons, then what I would do is look for the best black racer and/or breeder I could get my hands on, and breed from it, rather then searching for some "strain" referred to Diamonds, etc. Get you hands on a couple of them, rtegardless of their "strain" and within a few generations, you could have your own family of black colored pigeons. Again however....I digress.....


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Matt Bell said:


> If I remember correctly CBS sells (or they used to sell) Black Diamonds. Might check their website and see if they still do.


Yes but they are children and great grand children off or super breeders, who wants that?


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well, if I decided I wanted to own some black pigeons, then what I would do is look for the best black racer and/or breeder I could get my hands on, and breed from it, rather then searching for some "strain" referred to Diamonds, etc. Get you hands on a couple of them, rtegardless of their "strain" and within a few generations, you could have your own family of black colored pigeons. Again however....I digress.....


Obviously thats the way to go, having the money to do so is a different topic though lol.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> Obviously thats the way to go, having the money to do so is a different topic though lol.


That is pretty much true with everything in life is it not ?  If one does not have money, then searching for a "good" black diamond is not going to help, looking for a good black "xyz" is not going to help either. Regardless of by what "name" a black pigeon might go by, if one has no money, one must hope that someone will either give him a "good" black pigeon, or hope someone gives them the money to buy a "good" black pigeon, or any color for that matter. One in such a position, must rely on the charity of others. If one really has no money, then the odds are, they are not racing pigeons, as that does require money to feed, and pay dues, etc. Now, perhaps they have money, but just do not value a "good" pigeon as others might. But, that is a subject for another thread......


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> That is pretty much true with everything in life is it not ?  If one does not have money, then searching for a "good" black diamond is not going to help, looking for a good black "xyz" is not going to help either. Regardless of by what "name" a black pigeon might go by, if one has no money, one must hope that someone will either give him a "good" black pigeon, or hope someone gives them the money to buy a "good" black pigeon, or any color for that matter. One in such a position, must rely on the charity of others. If one really has no money, then the odds are, they are not racing pigeons, as that does require money to feed, and pay dues, etc. Now, perhaps they have money, but just do not value a "good" pigeon as others might. But, that is a subject for another thread......


Well if I wasn't paying for feed, medicine, gas, etc. Then I would have enough money to drop big bills. But since you wrote a nice paragraph about hoping some one gives me a nice pigeon, maybe you oughta step up to the plate and help me out  But on the same note, actually one member on here is offering me two free breeding pairs, and my mentor is offering me at least a pair he said, so there are nice guys with good birds out there willing to share and help.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

scooter1989 said:


> I like the sion strain. Because they are long distance flyers. They are pretty fast. I notice with this strain that, if the birds is Blue bar or a Check, they fly the best and the quickest. any birds that has mostly white or very light colors are just average speed. This might be with alot of other strian, but this is what I know from sion lol.


Sions don't exist anymore and when they did, they were famous for their Reds with the dark eye.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

First To Hatch said:


> Well, I see the name thrown out there a lot "Black Diamonds" but I've never seen any online that are good black pigeons, have you? Thats what I'd like to see and hopefully have is good black pigeons.


Black Diamonds are an Australian strain as far as I know, some black but mostly Dark Velvet and Dark Chequers.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

jpsnapdy said:


> Black Diamonds are an Australian strain as far as I know, some black but mostly Dark Velvet and Dark Chequers.


So according to you, how are there Black Diamonds but not Sions?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jpsnapdy said:


> Sions don't exist anymore and when they did, they were famous for their Reds with the dark eye.


WOW ! 

You are very direct !  

No beating around the bush with you. 

Depending on the context, I think I should have to agree with you. But, that context can be a hotly debated issue, particularly from all the "Sion" owners with their framed pedigrees, who might just place great value in the *name* which has been assigned to their pigeons. Besides, if they look at it from a marketing perspective, they know their "Sion" birds will be worth less if they can't have that name attached to it, maybe a lot less. 

While it also opens the door for debate as to what is or isn't a "pure" line, of which others claim there is no such thing as a "pure" line. I think to be intellectually honest with ourselves, then the name of the strain should be hyphenated with the breeders which followed the original master. Such as Janssen/Smith, if Mr. Jassen is the starting point, and Mr. Smith is breeding 2nd generation. Or in the case with the strain mentioned the Sion strain might look like Sion/Heitzman, Ressel, Ganus, Smith..etc...etc... In which case, listing the breeders who were making the selections along the family line. 

What happens in the pigeon game, is if you tell a guy that his family line that he maybe has been working with for decades, is not what he says it is, then you are just setting yourself up for a fight. He will be insulted, because he has invested a lot of emotional energy into the name of some pigeons. You may be intellectually correct, but in the wacky pigeon world, you may actually make an enemy for life. Any other idea you may have, will be dead wrong from the get go. Because in a strange sort of way, you basically are calling his pigeons a bunch of bastards, because you are saying they are not descended from birds which once were owned by a great pigeon master in a previous century.

It does perhaps beg the question, of what do people really mean, when they ask for the name of a strain, when asking about a family of pigeons ? But, I digress, and the subject of this thread is how many strains are there out there ? If we apply one of the definitions " the body of descendants of a common ancestor, as a family or stock. " then there must be many...many ...tens of thousands of strains out there. Perhaps there are more strains then there are numbers of fanciers as I would really have to ponder the math of this question.

I thought I would add this link: http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/auction/Ad_Schaerlaeckens1.html Where Ad gives a few of his thoughts on this "Strain" name business.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

rpalmer said:


> So according to you, how are there Black Diamonds but not Sions?


Because I believe there is an owner/breeder of Black Diamonds still around, link here : http://www.pigeonstud.com/page2.htm
and that Paul Sion died a long time ago.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> WOW !
> 
> You are very direct !
> 
> ...


LOL. 
Hi Warren, That's my way I suppose. 
Now, take you for instance how do you feel when the day your bird wins someone asks you what strain is that bird? As if it wasn't yours, as if you don't have any merit??? And it's the same with me, do these guys expect you going to trace back to Sion? Why not Wegge and Hansenne, Grooeters, etc?
I feel sick when people show me birds and say "this is a Sion, Stassart or..." any of that bull. In which case I generally ask: "who bred it?" who flies it, who is the owner. Do they expect me to go get Stassart's views on the bird in the grave or something? And I get a lot of that around here. If you remember, I live in India.
Now my mentor's name is Col. F. C. Smith. I am proud to say Most of my birds are from him. He gave me his best because I won his trust and respect. But, sadly, he passed away now, may his soul rest in peace! He has broken records almost every season. Some guys to impress me will show me a pigeon and say "this is a Smith bird". I mean my mentor himself used to tell me not to mention his name for the babies I bred where not his anymore but mine or the breeder's.
I agree with Ad a 100%.
I do care about good breeding, but if you find the name of a world reknown fancier in the pedigree 4-5 generations ago, it's a good base but no guarantee that the subsequent breeders have done a good job unless they were big champs themselves. My pedigrees don't show the Cattrysse, Janssen, Newcombe, Marles or Casaerts anymore, what's the point! The only thing that matters is : Are the birds winning *NOW*!!! If not they are "has been"s and the breeder bungled up. It IS very tough or tougher to get a name now than it was then, in the days of yore, So people, try to get your own name asked for rather than that of champions of the previous centuries. If I raced in the US, I'd certainly want to try out SFL birds, the Warren Smith birds! Not Claessens'
No, I don't care much for commercial stunts or those who use them, but they are free to do what they want, I believe in a free world.
Peace to you all!

Jean-Pierre Spielmann


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jpsnapdy said:


> LOL.
> Hi Warren, That's my way I suppose.
> Now, take you for instance how do you feel when the day your bird wins someone asks you what strain is that bird? As if it wasn't yours, as if you don't have any merit??? And it's the same with me, do these guys expect you going to trace back to Sion? Why not Wegge and Hansenne, Grooeters, etc?
> I feel sick when people show me birds and say "this is a Sion, Stassart or..." any of that bull......
> ...




That's cause everyone knows that some of the best in the world went into making a "Smith"...don't matter if USA or India...around the world, if it is a Smith, then it has to be good !! 

I guess we both must have been reading from some of the same pages. I am still amazed though, that even after you win 1st Place years in a row at an International racing event, people seeking pigeons will still track me down and seek to acquire some 'pure" Claessens from me. Or some of my birds make their way through various breeders, and are they referred to as *"Smith's"* ? No, they are called Janssens, cause some of the birds in the background can be traced back to birds bred by the Janssen Brothers....what about Joep Koch, Verbree, Theo Ijskout, Steven vanBreeman, Ludo Claessen, Lew Burns, or Ad Schaerlackens, they all contributed to the modern day *Smith*, but what name have I found being used ? Janssen...so go figure ???


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jpsnapdy said:


> Because I believe there is an owner/breeder of Black Diamonds still around, link here : http://www.pigeonstud.com/page2.htm
> and that Paul Sion died a long time ago.


 And the few I saw were not even black. They are blue checks, very dark blue checks. I own some pigeons descended from Ludo Claessen's birds which are darker then some of the birds in the pictures referred to as "Black Diamonds". I rightly or wrongly have referred to them as Blue Velvet as a nest mate will often turn out to be a Red Velvet. 

For those of you old enough to remember : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6J4JUsWwNQ

But...I am digressing again, if the orginal designer of the "Black Diamond" line is still around producing his family line, then they still exsist.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

jpsnapdy said:


> Because I believe there is an owner/breeder of Black Diamonds still around, link here : http://www.pigeonstud.com/page2.htm
> and that Paul Sion died a long time ago.


Now go to CBS's site and read the pedigrees for Black Diamonds. Not a one is from Oz and certainly predate 2003, which your link shows as the oldest bird. 

You are just wrong. And so is Warren Smith. If you go to the roots of modern day genetics you will find the pea plant. According to both you and Mr. Smith there is no such thing as snow peas. You can both argue your positions until the cows come home but you will never be right. Take care and enjoy the earth beneath it's surface as all ostriches do.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> That's cause everyone knows that some of the best in the world went into making a "Smith"...don't matter if USA or India...around the world, if it is a Smith, then it has to be good !!
> 
> I guess we both must have been reading from some of the same pages. I am still amazed though, that even after you win 1st Place years in a row at an International racing event, people seeking pigeons will still track me down and seek to acquire some 'pure" Claessens from me. Or some of my birds make their way through various breeders, and are they referred to as *"Smith's"* ? No, they are called Janssens, cause some of the birds in the background can be traced back to birds bred by the Janssen Brothers....what about Joep Koch, Verbree, Theo Ijskout, Steven vanBreeman, Ludo Claessen, Lew Burns, or Ad Schaerlackens, they all contributed to the modern day *Smith*, but what name have I found being used ? Janssen...so go figure ???


Please tell us of the birds you have basket-ed and taken to the club or had the club pick up that placed 1st.

I fave check many Futurity races with you birds and not a one did well. Please correct me.


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## scooter1989 (Jul 19, 2011)

I have a pair of Black Racing homers. They are the sion strains, Very strong active birds. The feathers on their flight feathers last long and don't get burned out as easy. I call them black diamond myself, more because it's easier to remember the name or, if some ask what kind of homer they are, I would say "They are Black Diamond Racing homers". Very pretty bird to add to the loft, also very striking.

I nerved had a black bird that was taken by a hawk yet, maybe because they might think they are crows. Also, they could be harder to be spotted by the hawk.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rpalmer said:


> Please tell us of the birds you have basket-ed and taken to the club or had the club pick up that placed 1st.
> 
> I fave check many Futurity races with you birds and not a one did well. Please correct me.


 I tell you what, if you show us yours, then I will show you mine. But first we need to have your real name and the club you fly with. We have had numerous folks come on here and voice very strong opinions on a variety of subjects, and then it turns out they don't even race pigeons anymore. 

Perhaps you can start a new thread so you can share some of your ideas regarding the breeding of better pigeons. As it is, we have certainly gone far afield from the subject of this thread, of which I may have contributed to.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I tell you what, if you show us yours, then I will show you mine. But first we need to have your real name and the club you fly with. We have had numerous folks come on here and voice very strong opinions on a variety of subjects, and then it turns out they don't even race pigeons anymore.
> 
> Perhaps you can start a new thread so you can share some of your ideas regarding the breeding of better pigeons. As it is, we have certainly gone far afield from the subject of this thread, of which I may have contributed to.


This is exactly what I knew you would say and why.

I am not the one who boasts of spending six figures on my birds. I am not the one with a loft manager and imported birds that props myself up to be some God of the pigeon racing world. I am not the feather merchant preying on new fliers with long discussions about anything that will take away from the fact that even though I send a 3 or 4 bird team at $300.00 a bird, they just don't make the cut ( tax write off??). I'm not the one who tries to hide behind "science" when feeding pellets but compleatly dismisses science when It comes to strains and breeding.

So there is is. If you don't have the brass or birds to list your wins from you loft then you should quietly fade into the background and when you get your site re-done put in big bold letters that you have no wins from your loft but someone else who is gullible enough to believe your story and also not realize that too much of your site is actually copied from from somewhere else and you prop it up as your own work. 

Take care Warren Smith of Smith Family Lofts.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

rpalmer said:


> This is exactly what I knew you would say and why.
> 
> I am not the one
> 
> ...



Here you are again with a personal attack on Warren. If you do not start respecting the others on this forum I do hope they ban you from posting here.

Many on here know warren and I have not always gotten along but I have learned to respect him as a person and as a fellow PT member.

So what one are you? Why don't you answer Warren's questions? Show us your race results and the club you fly with. Let us in on some of your great breeding wisdom. If you can not put up than sh.....................................

Thanks, Mark / Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rpalmer said:


> This is exactly what I knew you would say and why.
> 
> I am not the one who boasts of spending six figures on my birds. I am not the one with a loft manager and imported birds that props myself up *to be some God of the pigeon racing world.* I am not the feather merchant preying on new fliers with long discussions about anything that will take away from the fact that even though I send a 3 or 4 bird team at $300.00 a bird, they just don't make the cut ( tax write off??). I'm not the one who tries to hide behind "science" when feeding pellets but compleatly dismisses science when It comes to strains and breeding.
> 
> ...






I do appreciate your interest in my site. 

I am afraid however, that somewhere along the line, I must have offended you. Perhaps it was on these pages, or maybe it was because of a race you thought you should have won. Or perhaps it is simply professional envy ? If I offended you, or in any way disrespected you, then I apologize. It is rarely my intention to hurt someone. 

My web site has not been updated for several years, as I don't have a web designer. But, it is right there, for anyone to see, I do not have any birds for sale. The last year I sold YB's was 2008 ! http://smithfamilyloft.com/SaleYB.html


I have not placed any ads of "birds for sale" since our 2007 National Testing program, and I gave some folks right here on PT the first crack at them. 

see : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/sfl-test-kit-updates-here-19167.html?highlight=national+testing and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGyMsv6qZY8&feature=related

I do appreciate your constructive criticism that much of what is on my web site is copied from someone else. I tried very hard to insure that credit was given to the right people. Maybe you referring to the News area ? http://smithfamilyloft.com/News.html 

As far as sending a 3 or 4 bird team to a racing event and none of them happen to make it into the money, well that is all part of pigeon racing. This year I have sent a grand total of two pigeons to the Winners Cup this year...Yahoo !! So you must have found the race achieves there and discovered that some of my experimental pairings didn't work. Thank you for rubbing the salt in the wound so to speak.......this helps motivate me to do better in the future. And to show my appreciation for your help in this regard, why don't you send a pair of YB's to the Winners Cup next year and we can share the results right on here ! I will even pay your perch fees for you, all you have to do is show up ! We might even have a little side wager if you like. 

Drop me a line, if you are a UPC member, we can do lunch, my treat.

PS. There is/was only one race, that one ever has to win, to be forever remembered as one of this sport's greatest Champions, and that is the PT One Loft Classic !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_fBcW0_EM If that doesn't impress our readers, then nothing will !!


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> That's cause everyone knows that some of the best in the world went into making a "Smith"...don't matter if USA or India...around the world, if it is a Smith, then it has to be good !!
> 
> I guess we both must have been reading from some of the same pages. I am still amazed though, that even after you win 1st Place years in a row at an International racing event, people seeking pigeons will still track me down and seek to acquire some 'pure" Claessens from me. Or some of my birds make their way through various breeders, and are they referred to as *"Smith's"* ?


Well, just so you know, when entering the birds I got from Ace into my pedigree program, for the ones that trace directly to you via him , I listed the strain as SFL, and the breeder as Ace in the hole. . You put in the work....they don't call it a "Strain" for nothing- LOL


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

ace in the hole said:


> Here you are again with a personal attack on Warren. If you do not start respecting the others on this forum I do hope they ban you from posting here.
> 
> Many on here know warren and I have not always gotten along but I have learned to respect him as a person and as a fellow PT member.
> 
> ...


Mark, it's not a personal attack. There are others on the forum who had and raced pigeons and can no longer keep pigeons because of health reasons. And they have said as much. to ask another member to show their winnings is not wrong either.

No one ever asked Warren how much he has spent on birds. No one has asked him if he has a loft manager. No one has asked him if he was "buds" with overseas breeders. Do I really need to go on?

All of this was volunteered by Warren, if I may, to offer to new pigeon fanciers, a path that is made for them to believe that he is "it". 

I am simply pointing out that he is not "it". And I offer my comments as some sort of fodder for the brain to sift through and see if there are ant self evident truths in my statements or his. 

I am sorry you can't see that. Thankfully you are not everyone.

Take care.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I do appreciate your interest in my site.
> 
> I am afraid however, that somewhere along the line, I must have offended you. Perhaps it was on these pages, or maybe it was because of a race you thought you should have won. Or perhaps it is simply professional envy ? If I offended you, or in any way disrespected you, then I apologize. It is rarely my intention to hurt someone.
> 
> ...


Warren, I had this really nicely thought out reply for you. But I needed to download a spell checker and lost all of it. So this is draft number two.

I would never complain about not winning a race. Never! If I believed for one second that the race was not fair by common racing practices, I would leave the club or combine. But the second you bragged about winning a race that had a questionable result, I would make sure everyone knew the circumstances of you "win".

And likewise a good win is a good win and that is what racing pigeons is suppose to be about. I would gladdy let all know any and all who were able to beat me. 

I can not afford to enter the futurities races you have. Not yet. But If I get to that point I will let you know I am entered and then we can make that wager. But thanks for the offer of paying part of my way and the lunch. I mean that.

The thing that rubs me the wrong way about your posts Warren is your absolute belief that old strains no longer exist. Ya know how in the movie "Back To The Future" the kid just can't stand being called chicken?
Well that is how i react to you instance that any strain of racer who's originator has died nullifies the strain and anyone who keep and breeds that strain is somehow fooling themselves into believing that what they are doing has any value or most importantly a proper name.

On this point you and I will never agree. But I am not the only one. And in all fairness to the sport and new people, you need to tone your line down. A lot.

You are not helping the sport. You are not helping yourself. And you are not helping the new people looking for correct answers. You are just marching to the beat of your own drum and just can't understand why everyone else is out of step.

I believe you have promoted yourself as the keeper of the correct answers. And because you are not, I asked for you to post the winnings you have of birds returning to your loft from a race. This to me and everyone else who is interested in racing pigeons, would show if the proud never say I'm wrong Mr. Smith had the birds to make all the long discussions made by you with more that some condescending, have any merit. Sort of a self evident truth.

If you had win after win, then weather anyone liked it or not, your words would have merit. But with no wins how much merit should all your words be given? 

I don't mean to embarrass you. But I do mean to call you out. Some will and have seen this as a personal attack. They are wrong. But it is all they know.

I really do wish you all the best. And I also really wish you would not make comments as if you are the answer man. The birds speak.

Oh and for your site. It is proper to not only list the author of something of theirs you add to your site. You should always add a link to the site from where you copied the information. All of this assumes that you have in writing their permission to re-post their work.

Take care.

P.S. The first draft was much better.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

My man Gurbir opened up a big old can of worms!

I figure tendencies of a strain can still be evident no matter who had their paws on them- if it is a genetically solid strain. Beyond that, the individual fancier is going to leave their own mark in the breeding choices that they make, which one would assume would be their own attempt to attain a certain result- which may or may not be similar to what the original breeder was attempting.

Race results and birds having characteristics that appeal to a particular fancier speak louder than the names of the masters of the sport, but their influence resonates regardless. For me it comes down to "Why are you using the name" - to give others an idea of tendencies or general type, or qualities a bird may have- or to attempt to preserve something that ultimately cannot be preserved. Collecting the works of Picasso will not generate more original Picasso's. You can make prints with varying levels of accuracy, put then reproducing from those will also result in changes. In birds, who knows- perhaps those attempting to keep a strain "alive" will actually improve on it- then why give all credit to the original breeder? Same logic if you take birds from a strain that are as pure to that strain as can be and end up with a bunch of duds- gotta share the bad results as well.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Looking over the black diamond line of birds i would say they are a family bred group of birds NOT A STRAIN LINE GROUP. one being jannsen based birds of black check to dark blue check birds bred around a family group of birds. which is what several lofts will do in a breeding program. So can they still exsist YES as the family group they are Would they be a strain. I do not think they ever were. they got there features from the janssen line Color from the group line Quailty from selection of the line. Can they be maintained out side the main breeders line YES to the level they are selected from BUT one should note they are being paired different and one should add key stock from same line breeding To keep the family going the right direction. The color indicates the black BUT it is dark t pattern NOT full self black like say the black eagles were.. But without keeping in touch with other solid breeders and importing from the key the familyt can only stay or be improved from your own base. You making your mark on an exsisting family group. To me strain would be long gone As that is what set the certion station keys on the birds head type, body type, depth, feather condition, ECT The racing homer today came from very few realstrain from the past lets say MASTERS. and have been crossed and re set Very much. Family groups can still be achived and bred from The key it looks like to the diamonds Is 1 there breeding circle and out side the direct family group would be the JANSSEN line birds which would be say distance direct line breeding to the source. So they can make up the cross line breeding back towards the black check color base that make the name black diamond. AND we all know there are many janssen basedclines there to reach out to. Remember even the Staff van Reets were janssen based birds bred towards they van reet needs


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rpalmer said:


> Warren, I had this really nicely thought out reply for you. But I needed to download a spell checker and lost all of it. So this is draft number two.
> 
> I would never complain about not winning a race. Never! If I believed for one second that the race was not fair by common racing practices, I would leave the club or combine. But the second you bragged about winning a race that had a questionable result, I would make sure everyone knew the circumstances of you "win".
> 
> ...


I am sorry you find the beat of my drum so off tune. Never thought it was my job, nor my responsibility to be the supplier of all the correct answers....cause I'm not even sure what all the questions are. Nor have I ever accepted this idea that it is my job to promote the sport or to be the guide for every new person. It is a thankless job anyway, and the world is full of anonymous posters such as yourself who feel that it is their job to find fault or pick on whoever has stepped forward and shared what has worked for them. 


If we are to use your criteria for as who should be able to voice an opinion, or who should share their theories and ideas, then you should share your name, and all of your race records so that we may determine if you are qualified to have an opinion. However, if we apply your criterea, then there would be very few posts on these pages from anyone. No one posting on these pages has all the answers, if you think I promote myself that way, then you havn't read many of my posts. There are over 4,000 of them, go back and read some more. 

And since offering to pay the perch fees was not enough of an inducement to get you to step out of the bleachers, put your helmet on, get into the game, and demonstrate to us lay people how effective your old line strain is which I must have disrespected, I tell you what I will do. 

I will front you 100% of all the monies required so you can enter your proven team of birds in the 2012 Winners Cup series of races. That way you can cease with the name calling, and falsehoods, and demonstrate that you know what you are talking about.

For the record, I did win 1st Place in the Flamingo International Challenge two years in a row. The 2006 win was an equal first, but the bird "Big Deal" was the most consistent winner of those series of races. The 2007 victory was pretty sweet as well. http://www.flamingoic.com/index.php?SYS_MNU03_00_current_mp=67&View=liveupdate2007 I have also placed in the money in lesser events at the Flamingo. A SFL bird has typically won average speed, champion bird, and champion loft every year for the last five years at the club level. And as you like to forget, it was AU 2010 SFL 241 which was the 1st Annual Pigeon-Talk Classic Champion. 

Now does that make me some sort of infallible "expert"...with all the answers ? Heck no !! But apparently it is good enough to get your goat, as you have invested a considerable amount of time trying to diminish what accomplishments I have made. And you have claimed that I have posted other people's work on my web site and have claimed it as my own, which is of course a complete falsehood. I think you just are having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that I just might know something that you don't. 

But, 2012 is just around the corner, and without a dime out of your pocket, you can have your chance to show us all how it is done. And I will just sit back and watch your birds decimate the competition. However, we both know this will never happen, because my experience as been that anonymous challengers such as yourself rarely show up. Trapped in their own mediocrity, they typically lack the courage to participate, and why attempt to demonstrate what most knowledgeable pigeon guys already knew decades ago, that those so called "Old Lines" they own, are not just old, but they are old and worn out. But, who knows, maybe you will summon up the courage, but your birds will still get their wings torn off trying to keep up with those sleek racing machines with the SFL bands on their feet !!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Now, does anyone have anything to add, which is relavant to the topic of discussion of how many strains there are ? I apologize for taking the time to respond to personal attacks. 

Whenever the term "strain" comes up, there is almost always heated debate on the issue. For the most part, I agree with fanciers such as Ad Schaeraeckens. If you disagree then fine, but rather then attack the poster, clearly articulate why so many great fanciers are wrong. 

http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/auction/Ad_Schaerlaeckens1.html


Part 2 "STRAINS, NAMES AND EYES"

When somebody in Holland or Belgium races outstanding the result is that foreigners who are after good birds get interested in the pigeons of such a man. And the first question the champion in Holland and Belgium has to answer is: 'What strain do you have?' 'What strain?' The champions in Holland and Belgium often do not understand. 'What does this man want, a strain or a good bird?' they wonder. This is not strange because the majority of the superbirds in Europe are products of crossings! Moreover the question may rise if 'pure strains' really exist? In my opinion they don't.

HOFKENS Take the late Mr Hofkens and his so called strain. Hofkens is a great name, especially in America. He was a butcher and lived close to me. He was of an older generation but still we were kind of friends. That's why he asked me twice to organise an auction for him. That was when he was still alive of course. Because of my activities for these auctions I am pretty well informed about his birds, his results and the origine of his birds. Well, Mr Gust Hofkens himself did not believe in a strain and never wanted to have one. Later, after his death, others would show off with 'strain Hofkens'. If Hofkens would be able to read the publications about him and 'his strain' which appeared after his death he would turn in his grave. In America, and not only there, they claim to have Hofkensstrain pure whereas Hofkens himself never even thought of keeping a family 'pure'. He was always looking for better birds. He bought pigeons wherever he could provided they were good and preferably from racers in his own area. Because the pigeons he wanted were those from people who beat him in the races. When Hofkens died his birds were totally auctioned. How popular they were is shown by the fact that some days before the auction took place part of the birds was stolen despite a policeman guarded them they and night. I still have the auctionlists. They show that about one third of his birds were 'imports', so pigeons he got from other people, birds which did not even wear a ring from Hofkens. Another third he bred off of birds he imported. And pigeons with parents and grandparents bred by Hofkens himself? He hardly had such birds. Fanciers who bought pigeons in the auctions later pretended to have 'Hofkensstrain', even if it were pigeons that Hofkens did not breed himself or pigeons which Hofkens bred off of birds he purchased himself somewhere else.

OTHER EXAMPLE I will give another example: Jan Aarden, a famous name all over the world for long distance. Now, some decades after his death many people in Holland claim to have pure Jan Aardenstrain. Most of them know better but the name sells! And what again is the truth? Just like Hofkens Jan Aarden was always looking for the best, he bought birds everywhere and though he was not a very succesful racer it must be said that later other fanciers were succesful with the offspring of his pigeons. But… they were not 'a strain' either. What he did have was also a mixture of birds.* Like I said before epecially the American pigeonfanciers are very naive.* They show off with pure Bekaert, pure Wegge, pure Verheye, pure Hansenne, pure Bricoux, pure Huyskens van Riel, pure Genette etcetera, etcetera. Names completely unknown to the younger generation in Europe. For example Wegge and Huyskens van Riel.

Wegge and Huyskens van Riel. Wegges birds were auctioned in 1903! Again the same story: They were nearly all crossings. *Now almost a century later some Americans claim to have them pure. Isn't it ridicoulous? *Huyskens van Riels pigeons are also kept pure in foreign countries. However, Geroges, the son of Jef van Riel himself admits that in his birds is not much blood left of his late father. And if there would be one person in the world who could have Huyskens van Rielstrain it would be him. But he is an honest man who does not want to misuse the name of his father. Moreover… also his fathers pigeons which destroyed the races in the late fourties and early fifties were products of crossings. In 1946 Jef van Riel bought a round of eggs from Jos van den Bosch. He CROSSED these pigeons with his own and an explosion of superbirds was the result.

Names So succesful racers, (the champions in Holland and Belgium) do not care for strains and they no not care for NAMES either when they want to buy. The press made the names and it is funny and sad at the same time to see that even today certain people who are completely unkown in Holland and Belgium as they mean nothing as racers are famous all over the world. They cannot show results but their strong point is that these 'paper tigers' know how to manipulate the media. They advertise, they know what people abroad like: Strains, impressing pedigrees and photos and they offer what people abroad like: Strains impressing pedigrees and photos. But their business is good: They sell! Because they have other qualities than breeding good pigeons: They have a good nose for money! It is rather frustrating for the real champions with the superbirds to see Japanese, Americans and Taiwanese buying such 'paper birds'. Have you ever heard about William Geerts? You sure have. Have you ever heard about an old man called Fond Jacobs? Probably you have not. But it was the birds of good old Fons Jacobs that made Geerts famous!

PUBLICITY So what's the conclusion? Very many champions in Holland and Belgium became famous with pigeons they got from completely unknown fellowsportsmen. These 'fellowsportsmen' are the real champions, unknown is they may be. They do not advertise, they do not want to pay middlemen for publicity, very often they do not even like publicity and they do not want to pay exporters or importers to make them 'big shots' abroad. Because money is not that important to them. What makes them happy is good pigeons and good results. For those people the press can go to hell. They want to win races, others may have the fame.

Moreover they can sell anyway. Not to foreigners but to fellow sportsmen in their own country. Its the resultsheets that make their publicity.

Mr X and his neighbour the Janssenman I would like to finish this article with one more example which shows what I mean. There is this Janssenman. A guy with many pigeons directly from Janssen Bros. As a racer he means nothing but he is known all over the world. Coincidentally his neighbour, let's call him Mr X, is a great champion and hardly to beat in the races. In fact he feels sorry about the poor results of the Janssenman next door and he hopes every weekend this man will have a good race. But in vain. The neighbour is just a loser. However… people from all over the world want the pigeons of this loser. It often happens that they stop at the house of Mr X. They see his loft 'so there must live a pigeonfancier' and they stop there to aks Mr X where the famous Janssenman lives. What such foreign visitors do not realise is that not the Janssenman is the real champion but the guy where they ask his address.

WHY? 'Why', I often wonder, do foreign pigeon people not ask about results when buying birds? They want good results themselves but when buying birds they want names and strains. And… not to forget they want pigeons with special eyes: Colourful 'rich' eyes, so-called breeding eyes. Why do they like pigeons with rich eyes? I don't know. What I do know however is that scientifically the eye means nothing. Again in America pigeonpeople are crazy about 'eye-sign'. The fact that we even do not have a Dutch word for 'eye-sign' means enough. Good birds. That's what pigeonpeople all over the world are after. But if foreign buyers would know about the (poor!) results of some famous European names their eyes would pop out. But their eyes would even more pop out if they would know about the sensational results of fanciers whose names are completely unknown to them! Whose fault this all is? As I said before: The media, the press! One of the reasons that I said 'okay' when Mr Lin asked me to write for him in this magazine is that I consider it as a duty for every man who writes about pigeons and pigeonsport to open the eyes of people who have been brainwashed too much in the past in this materialistic world. 

Ad Schaerlaeckens
© Ad Schaerlaeckens


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

Who could argue with the great Ad Schaerlaeckens???...well maybe a few people. I think we need to take a hard look at some of these articles and really dissect them for content and fact.
compare that article to a link I posted earlier.
http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm
Not all the big names out-crossed as a consistent method of propagating a family of pigeons.

have a look at this link provided through a link posted by another poster here whose name I cannot spell or pronounce 
http://www.pigeonstud.com/pagestamvater1.htm


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## pigeon is fun (Sep 6, 2010)

it's getting more interesting forum.......by far.
keep it coming!


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I will front you 100% of all the monies required so you can enter your proven team of birds in the 2012 Winners Cup series of races. That way you can cease with the name calling, and falsehoods, and demonstrate that you know what you are talking about.


I have never accepted a hand out in all my days. Some of which never had sunshine or food or work.

You must be use to dealing with "men" whose personal code of conduct is " take whatever from whomever". I will tell you again ... when I can and do enter a race against you. I will make sure you know I'm in it.

So, still no results of racing with birds returning to your loft? Hmmm.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Perhaps Ad Schaerlaeckens *opinions* are colored by the fact that if you go to this link http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/index.cfm and read about the great birds and breeders of them, he is not mentioned.

Just a thought.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

A member has made multiple complaints how this thread is going off subject PLEASE lets get this back on track And not debate who is right or wrong Or more complaints will be made.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lgfout said:


> Who could argue with the great Ad Schaerlaeckens???...well maybe a few people. I think we need to take a hard look at some of these articles and really dissect them for content and fact.
> compare that article to a link I posted earlier.
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm
> Not all the big names out-crossed as a consistent method of propagating a family of pigeons.
> ...


Thank you for posting those, I had forgotten about them and the Silvio article is a real classic !  

I especially found this section interesting...
" The reference to a pure strain today has very little biological or genetic significance. The name Sion, Gurnay, Bricoux, Janssen, Stassart, or Gits really has no real value to us other than to acknowledge the continuing fame of individuals who were very successful in imparting a common standard to their family of pigeons. Their pigeons were families, yes, but were they really pure strains as we defined in a biological sense? The answer is that they were not pure strains or pure lines developed in the fashion of Wegge or Ulens."

I guess I should call my pigeons Ulens based....


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

another paragraph from the same:
_*No, I guess we can ask for more-more discussion, more conversation, more true friendship, more cooperation, more of us helping each other to realize our own individual dreams or goals, more sharing of truly limited valuable genetic heritage,* more trust, and much more tolerance and gratitude.*_


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lgfout said:


> another paragraph from the same:
> _*No, I guess we can ask for more-more discussion, more conversation, more true friendship, more cooperation, more of us helping each other to realize our own individual dreams or goals, more sharing of truly limited valuable genetic heritage,* more trust, and much more tolerance and gratitude.*_


and ending with.........*Regardless of what the pundits say, I live by my own Rule 1: Make your own mistakes. Birdkeeping is by definition a hands-on activity. Do not be afraid to make errors. You only really learn by doing, so get out there and do it and develop great friendships in the process. If you do this, whether you win or lose, you become the real winner and the true master.*


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Here, if you want to learn about strains, here's a place with loads of articles on the fanciers who "made" them:
> http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/index.cfm





lgfout said:


> check out this article??
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm


Thanks for those links


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

scooter1989 said:


> I have a pair of Black Racing homers. They are the sion strains, Very strong active birds. The feathers on their flight feathers last long and don't get burned out as easy. I call them black diamond myself, more because it's easier to remember the name or, if some ask what kind of homer they are, I would say "They are Black Diamond Racing homers". Very pretty bird to add to the loft, also very striking.
> 
> I nerved had a black bird that was taken by a hawk yet, maybe because they might think they are crows. Also, they could be harder to be spotted by the hawk.


That's the way to go! So you got creating Scooter strain Black Diamonds ? That's cool man!


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

pigeon is fun said:


> it's getting more interesting forum.......by far.
> keep it coming!


LOL!


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Thank you for posting those, I had forgotten about them and the Silvio article is a real classic !
> 
> 
> I guess I should call my pigeons Ulens based....


Sounds cool, I'll call mine Delatouwer based.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rpalmer said:


> Perhaps Ad Schaerlaeckens *opinions* are colored by the fact that if you go to this link http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/articles/index.cfm and read about the great birds and breeders of them, *he is not mentioned.*
> Just a thought.


 I think that is more telling of the incompleteness of that* American* cut and paste site, then it is a lack of performance on the part of Mr. Schaerlaekens. I found that site lacking in a number of ways, even though you may be quite fond of it.

Anyone who has spent any time at all talking with European fanciers would know the legendary racing skills of Ad Schaerlaeckens. Who in the USA has not heard of the legendary Golden Mattens ?!  http://ganusfamilyloft.com/goldenmattens2.htm

Here are just some of his breeding references. Some of his race results are listed on his site. I am limited to 10,000 characters...so this is by no means a complete list. So if his opinions are colored...then they are* colored by success*. I know this will kill some people, but please let the birds speak.... 


http://www.schaerlaeckens.com/

Older references:

Mr Oltshoorn:	11,000 p - 1st 20,00 p - 1st 23.739 p - 2nd. 1st Champion Kuststrook, over 1.900 fanciers.
Mr Barink:	7.826 p - 1st
Mr v Engelen:	9.113 p - 1st
Mr Eysing:	20.587 p - 1st
Mr Groeneveld:	16.832 p - 1st
Mr van Herrewaarde:	20.200 p - 1st
Mr v d Haar:	3.257 p - 1st, 5.914 p - 1st, 4.189 p - 1st, 9.100 p - 1st, 5,600 p - 1st
Mr Pieper:	6.835 p - 1st, 5.267 p - 1st, 9.206 p - 1st, 1.729 p - 1st, 1.257 p - 1st and much more.
Mr Tjeerdsma:	9.600 p - 1st, 6.100 p - 1st and much more.
Mr v Ravenstein:	3.500 p - 1st.
Mr Banning:	6.081 p - 1st.
Mr Schwartz:	8.450 p - 1st
Mr Senden:	3.300 p - 1st, 3.450 p - 1st.
Mr Soonius:	5.165 p - 1st, 4.059 p - 1st, 8.123 p - 1st and 2nd, 11.420 p - 1st,
8.575 p - 1st, 9.733 p - 1st, 7.796 p - 1st.
Mr Koster:	NPO race 24.000 p: 2nd, 3rd, 4th !!! Sissi line!
Mr Leemans:	8.100 p - 1st
Mr Oostendorp:	15.076 p - 1st
Mr van Heeteren:	National Orleans 1st, NPO race Etampes 1st.
Mr v d Brandt:	3.783 p - 1st, 1.628 p - 1st, 3.315 p - 1st, 1.941 p - 1st and much more. In 2005 he had a sensational gr.child of Ace Four
Mr Scheele:	1.184 p - 1st and many more. 1st Short Distance Ace Combine.
Mr Claassen:	4.665 p - 1st, 12.798 p - 1st.
Mr Wings	won 1st prov Orleans 5.152 p (Sissi line)
Mr Schlechtriem:	9.754 p - 1st
Mr v Swieten:	8.324 p - 1st, 7.254 p - 1st, 7.451 p - 1st.
Mr J Roks:	1.201 p - 1st and many more.
Mr P Elbers:	1.111 p - 1st, 1.480 p - 1st
Mr J Stoll:	4.530 p - 1st and many more.
Mr Hoogwoud:	2.532 p - 1st and many more.
Mr v d Horst:	7.100 p - 1st, 4.800 p - 1st , 18.000 p - 1st and many more.
Mr Engelsman;	3.500 p - 1st
Mr Elzinga:	One Schaerlaeckensbird (Vale) gave over 30 winners.
Mr de Boer:	7.800 p - 1st
Mr Tenback:	9.991 p - 1st.
Mr van Veen:	27.500 p - 1st, 21.000 p - 1st.
Mr Kouwenhoven:	5.189 p - 1st
Mr Schelle:	A Schaerlaeckensbird won 11 firsts for him.
Mr Jorritsma:	1st Champion Combine
Mr Vis	won S-National Bourges 8.500 p. He also won a car.
Mr van Heyningen	won a car as well with a Schaerlaeckensbird.
Mr Schapink:	7.217 p - 1, 4, 5 and many more firsts. 1st Ace Combine.
Mr Holland:	2nd National Ace Scotland.
Mr Polhuis	was National Champion All Holland with Schaerlaeckensbirds (fond).
Mr Nijhof:	1st champion Combine Short Distance.
Mr Lutjenslossink	became in 2000 1st Champion Combine. 1.200 fanciers.
Mr E v d Keuken	became 1st Champion Combine. 730 fanciers.
Mr Bennink	won in 1995 1st S Nat Bourges.
Mr Ulrich	became 2nd National Champion. He had 2nd and 3rd Nat Ace,
He won 3.135 p - 1st, 5.265 p - 1st, 2.804 p - 1st, 2.749 p - 1st, 4.171 p - 1st, 2.314 p - 1st, 2.991 p - 1st, 1.106 p - 1st, 1.555 p - 1st, 3.607 p - 1st,. In 2001 he had a Schaerlaeckensbird that won 2 times in first 10 National.
Mr v t Hul	became 'Superchampion' Combine 1.000 fanciers.
Mr A Schwartz	became 1st Champion Combine.
Mr de Ruyter:	5.109 p - 1st . Three firsts Rayon, 4th S-Nat. Orleans.
Mr Weyst.	His 98-1421591 won. Tours 3.757 p - 1, Tours S-Nat 11.866 p - 2, Chantilly 13.203 p - 3, Orleans S-Nat 11.601 p - 15, Chateauroux 5.283 p - 10.
Mr Colijn	won 1st S-Nat Tours 11.866 p (partly Schaerlaeckensblood).
W v Lent	won in 2001 3rd S-Nat Orleans. Ring Ad Schaerlaeckens.
Mr Hulkenberg	won: Houdeng 4.048 p - 1, 2, 3. 2,868 p - 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13. He also won 1st S-Nat Etampes (17.000 p) Line Superstar and Sissi.
Mr F La Bruyn	won 4 1sts, in 2001 1st Ace Prov Afd M.
Mr F Timmermans	has a grandchild of Creilman (Son Sissi). This bird alone won 15.454 p - 1, 9.508 p - 1, 8.923 p - 1. Furthermore he has numerous 1st prize winners that are A S birds.
Mr K Minderhoud	won 3rd Prov Bettembourg. Line Orleansdoffertje (Sissi)
Mr W Zoontjens:	Won 1st from over 7.000 p. Line Sissi. In 2004 he had the 4th best youngster of Holland and in 2005 a sensational Long distance bird that won 3 times in first 10 National (75 % Schaerlaeckensblood
Mr v d Zijde	had National Ace Holland NPO long distance in 2000 with a pure Schaerlaeckensbird (line Sissi x Superstar).
He also had 2nd World Champion youngsters, line Superstar.
Mr Leytens	had best Olympiad pigeon short distance All Holland and 2nd World Champion V.L. long distance. Line Sissi.
Mr W de Bruyn	won 1st of over 10.000 p and 2nd 42,000 pigeons. (line Sissi). Before he had 5th Nat Ace long distance hens. Line Sissi too.
Mr Wouters Coreman	became National Champion Belgium partly with Schaerlaeckensbirds.
Mr Braet	Won 1st S-National Bourges in 2001, fastest of 17.000 birds. Pure Schaerlaeckens (line Orleansdoffertje Sissi and Superstar).
Mr St v Breemen	won 2nd Combine Orleans. Line Superstar.
Mr Verhoeven	won 1st S-National Montlucon 11.500 p. Line Sissi.
van Herrewaarde	Won 2nd National Orleans 22.000 p.
Mr Werson:	National Orleans 25.280 p - 1st
Mr Eric Limbourg	had Olympiad bird (line Superstar).
G en B Verkerk
won 1st (appr 6.000 birds). Of about 50.000 birds only 2 birds were faster. apart from that he won numerous 1sts against thousands of pigeons. In 2008 2nd and 3rd S National Blois.
J Merx had fastest bird of 45,000 birds. Gr.child Ace Four 96-5660145.

In 2001 Mr Schwichtenberg became 1st National Champion Long distance of ALL GERMANY with 100 % Schaerlaeckensbirds. 
He had 3 pure Schaerlaeckenshens that were among the 15 best birds of ALL Germany. 
Karoly Horvath from Budapest became in 2009 1st Champion of ALL Hungry with pure A S birds as well.

This is only a summary



And so on and so forth.....


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## g-pigeon (Aug 24, 2010)

I am just starting out with aces birds and sfl birds. I believe in them and there birds. But my question is to keep a strain pure would that mean you never get outside blood from other families. Did these people that built these strains not get a mixture of birds to develop there strain.and then add outside blood to improve them as they went along.in otherwords how can a strain stay pure.if warren buys a bird from someone else and breeds it to his birds are they sfl birds or mutts .and now if the breeder passes away how can these strains be continued.would people never breed outside of the first set of birds they started with? These are actual questions I am not being sarcastic or trying to offend anyone


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

g-pigeon said:


> I am just starting out with aces birds and sfl birds. I believe in them and there birds. But my question is to keep a strain pure would that mean you never get outside blood from other families. Did these people that built these strains not get a mixture of birds to develop there strain.and then add outside blood to improve them as they went along.in otherwords how can a strain stay pure.if warren buys a bird from someone else and breeds it to his birds are they sfl birds or mutts .and now if the breeder passes away how can these strains be continued.would people never breed outside of the first set of birds they started with? These are actual questions I am not being sarcastic or trying to offend anyone




purely a subjective question...you will get different answers from different people...who will be right??? the person whose opinion you are viewing because in the end it is the breeder who will determine his breeding program...but let me pose this question???..if you start with a "strain...family" of pigeons that is a mixture can it ever be pure?? depending on how you would personally answer this question is the answer to your question!!!
Go back and read the article on strains ...http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/strains.htm
If you read it carefully you will see how the modern day racing pigeon was formed from different breeds...so can any strain be pure?? the author seems to take 2 roads and some may feel is inconsistent in his conclusions...however read the last few paragraphs...
if you are just starting and trying to develop a "family" of pigeons then become a student of those who have done it successfully. my advice is to find someone whose pigeons you really like and pattern a breeding program similar...if you are new to the sport that will be a big enough task.
lastly...read...read...read...study pedigrees and race results especially in the areas you intend to race...then!!!...read ....read..read and then study!!


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

what you really need to do is breed winners or good bird to good birds and then let the basket show you the rest of the way , that plus the races you are in shouyld be able to guide you to where you need to go .


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

g-pigeon said:


> I am just starting out with aces birds and sfl birds. I believe in them and there birds. But my question is to keep a strain pure would that mean you never get outside blood from other families. Did these people that built these strains not get a mixture of birds to develop there strain.and then add outside blood to improve them as they went along.in otherwords how can a strain stay pure.if warren buys a bird from someone else and breeds it to his birds are they sfl birds or mutts .and now if the breeder passes away how can these strains be continued.would people never breed outside of the first set of birds they started with? These are actual questions I am not being sarcastic or trying to offend anyone


Any family of bird is made up from other families. Many of the well known families or strains were never kept pure by the original breeder. If you want to improve your family of bird you have to cross out to better birds. If you keep breeding the same birds to each other it is hard for your family of birds to move forward. A good breeder is always looking for something better to cross in with his birds.


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

ace in the hole said:


> If you want to improve your family of bird you have to cross out to better birds. If you keep breeding the same birds to each other it is hard for your family of birds to move forward.


Those are pretty broad remarks...The only reason I post here is to try to help others. So I would suggest as I did before to seek out successful breeders and study their methods. Read about genetics , line breeding and inbreeding. Here is a link to take a look at but one small article won't get you there!!

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/breeding.htm#Rule 7


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

lgfout said:


> Those are pretty broad remarks...The only reason I post here is to try to help others. So I would suggest as I did before to seek out successful breeders and study their methods. Read about genetics , line breeding and inbreeding. Here is a link to take a look at but one small article won't get you there!!
> 
> http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/breeding.htm#Rule 7


I do think I answered his questions. I am one of the breeders he was talking about. Glad you are here to help other though.


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## lgfout (Feb 8, 2011)

ace in the hole said:


> I do think I answered his questions. I am one of the breeders he was talking about. Glad you are here to help other though.


Duly Noted


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