# Please help-yellow droppings again



## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Hello, please advice me on what this could be.

My bird vet has not answered the phone since weeks ago and yest I drove all the way to him but was told he is abroad until 2 mondays later.

My birds have had 'too much bacteria' and were given two packets of mixed antibiotics for a week. This was said by the pharmacy guy who know pigeons but is not a complete vet (maybe a nurse?).

There droppings slowly got a little better and then probiotics and Ropa-B made them better again but not for long.

Now the droppings are like this, i have found a lot of links online but still don't know what to do;

Sometimes a day (not all the time) some birds have yellow droppings - the solid is yellow/mustard; these have soemtimes just water sometimes white uraites ; same birds make yellow wet droppings and green/brown dry droppings, i know because I saw them.

Uraites are not all white anymore - some of the solid green droppings have a liitle bit of green or yellow in the uraites - i thought it was from the color of the solid but maybe not.

then some droppings have the uraites broken in little pieces, many are big droppings of this kind, some are small.

Many times droppings are rough, maybe some undigested seed?

Please help. The pharmacy guy does not do the droppings tests only swabs


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*What antibiotics were you giving them and for what disease? 

Do you use organic apple cider vinegar in their water on regular basis? That will cut down on the bad bacteria. It is a great preventative and gets the gut PH on tract.

Have you ever treated your birds for canker? 

Follow these guidelines to keep your bird stabilized: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-8822.html 
Be sure to hand feed your bird/s if they are not eating enough as that will bring them down further. Keep bird/s warm and out of drafts of air.

If the bird/s are pooping undigested seeds, that is a symptom of coccidia... you may want to get some digestive enzymes.*


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Thank you for your reply.

I do not know if they had canker treatment before. Should I do it? The one the guy had looked at did not have lumps in his mouth.

I gave them wormers a few weeks ago and killed outside parasites. And i give them ACV and probiotics and a oregano supplement.

The droppings are good on the oregano but then bad again later.

THey had the PMV injection after the antibiotics also. The anitbiotics were these

Sulfaprime:
Trimethoprim
Sulfadimethoxine
Oxytetracycline

Salmocoli:
Chloramphenicol
Furazolidone
Neomycin

They eat normal and are very awake and normal. A few have bad feathers but before they were picking on him and he had parasites.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*They can still have canker and it may not be visible in their mouth.

I would do a preventive treatment for canker in healthy birds, if they have not been treated, as long as they are not on any other meds and are not sick. 

Please make sure to hand/force feed any bird/s that is not eating enough and isolate the ones that are sick, and treat for canker. *


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Skyeking said:


> *They can still have canker and it may not be visible in their mouth.
> 
> I would do a preventive treatment for canker in healthy birds, if they have not been treated, as long as they are not on any other meds and are not sick.
> 
> Please make sure to hand/force feed any bird/s that is not eating enough and isolate the ones that are sick, and treat for canker. *


Thank you for your reply

I will do a canker treatment as you suggest. If it is canker will it make their droppings go normal fast or will it take a long time again?

There are 8 birds for sure that have these droppings. I do not have enough space to take them all out. Do I give the medicine to everyone? I think there are 30 birds, but in different lofts. Do I give only to one loft?

Thank you


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Skyeking said:


> *What antibiotics were you giving them and for what disease?
> 
> Do you use organic apple cider vinegar in their water on regular basis? That will cut down on the bad bacteria. It is a great preventative and gets the gut PH on tract.
> 
> ...


Where do I get digestive enzymes please? Would they be in a packet of probiotics?

Can I treat for coccidia at the same time as canker?

Thank you for your advice


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Just treat for canker for the time being. It likely will resolve the problem.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Charis said:


> Just treat for canker for the time being. It likely will resolve the problem.


Thank you for your reply.

I hope so. I have been trying to get them healthy for a long time.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I think is e-coli. Mine got improved only with Enrofloxacine, after trying several other antibiotics. Don't expect to get rid of it, it will come back again and again.

Better focus on birds' immunity and strenght by giving a variated and tasty food (with very limited fat and proteins), make a pleasantful physical and psychological environment for them (show them attention and affection and so on).


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Yellow droppings and watery are some of the symptoms of canker a canker infection. The medication I prefer is metronidazole [flagy]. It's important to give the correct dose and for the amount of time that will cure the infection.
Most pigeons have the parasite, in their system, that causes an infection.They manage the parasite unless stressed or become ill with something else and then it takes over and causes an infection.
Once you start to treat, the symptoms tend to resolve quickly....in a matter of days.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

She says antibiotics made an improvement and by mustard yellow I think she means something close to this:










http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/specificinfections-ybs.php




The canker droppings are greener and if was canker, I doubt it passed without medication.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AndreiS said:


> She says antibiotics made an improvement and by mustard yellow I think she means something close to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would prefer to see a picture of the bird's actual dropping rather than what you think she means or a picture from Chevita.
The urates in canker droppings do tend to be yellow.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Droppings with yellow urates indicate problems with the liver, which could be due to various causes, canker being among them.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Thank you for your replies

I gave 2 packets mixed antibiotics. It was supposed to kill 

Staphylococcus spp., pullorum disease, infectious coryza, coccidosis, bacterial enteritis, bordetellosis, mastitis, metritis, respiratory tract infections and other systemic infections.

Chloramphenicol, furazolidone and neomycin susceptible micoorganisms, such as salmonellosis, colibacillosis.

I do not know if they did or they were too many and too little medicine to kill the sickness. Or if they killed the sickness but my birds have canker and others too.

The droppings were like this before I got the antibiotics. I will try take pictures today. Becasue now they are a bit different. Some of the uriates are not white, and some of the white uriates are very broken now.



















After antibiotics they changed but not all better and now a bit different. But they started making the yellow ones like the top picture again


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Personally, I would not dose pigeons (or anything) with mixture of antibiotics of that kind. I have never even hear of a couple of the things they're supposed to eliminate, and a couple of them I've never seen anywhere that they would relate to pigeons.

It could be that such a load of medicines may disrupt a bird's system, and it would be very likely to kill off 'good' bacteria as well as 'bad'.

Probably a need for a good pigeon probiotic to help get the systems back into balance.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

John_D said:


> Personally, I would not dose pigeons (or anything) with mixture of antibiotics of that kind. I have never even hear of a couple of the things they're supposed to eliminate, and a couple of them I've never seen anywhere that they would relate to pigeons.
> 
> It could be that such a load of medicines may disrupt a bird's system, and it would be very likely to kill off 'good' bacteria as well as 'bad'.
> 
> Probably a need for a good pigeon probiotic to help get the systems back into balance.


Thank you for your reply. After the antibiotics I gave them liviferm from Chevi for 5 days then 2 days water then started on Ropa-B and ACV and probiotic routine for i think a week. Then PMV injections last week.

Droppings got a little better (not yellow or so green) on antibiotics but not normal. Then Probiotics got better but not normal. Ropa-B got better but only for that day. ACV would get worse, but I do not know if because of ACV or because it was two days after Ropa-B.

Is Ronidazole ok for the canker? A friend gave me some.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

I took some photos. I'm sorry some of them are old and dry or stepped on but you still see colour.

This is stepped on but would have been round and dry before


















Sorry for the very bad picture. Today this was the only one I see with green uriates and it was in difficult place to take photo. It is not moldy, it is from yesterday or maybe 2 days ago.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Some more pictures. I took of all types I could find. All from the same loft.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

This is the sort of droppings color pigeons of mine with lab test certified e-coli made and make.

I have read on a Romanian site that a combination between Enrofloxacine and Colistin is capable to reduce the phenomenon, to other drugs e-coli made rezistence but is about e-coli strains from Romania on which have been tested several drugs (the site belongs to the main Romanian veterinary drugs producer, Romvac).

And from my trials, as I said, onky Enrofloxacine proved efficient. Colistin is quite toxic, will make the droppings look even yellower. If you use any antibiotic, is wise to also give hepatoprotective supplements, especially those based on sylimarin.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Thank you for your advice.

Today I was feeding some of the birds from my hand, and noticed 2 birds make a different sound.

Not all the time, but when they are afraid or in panic when I hold them their mouth is open and making a fast sound.
One was male and when he sings he also sounds wet?

A friend said it is coccidosis if I never gave them for that, and that I should treat for it.

Tomorrow is the last day of canker and they have not made it better.

AndreiS thank you for your reply. Is the E-Coli medicine very strong?

I do not want to give them more and more medicine.

What do I do? My vet is away until Monday. The other guy gave me the expensive antibiotics mix that didn't work.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

LouisAnna23 said:


> Not all the time, but when they are afraid or in panic when I hold them their mouth is open and making a fast sound.


From what I've read, fast and soundy breathing may be an advanced, hopeless Aspergillus. I hope is not. Advanced Aspergillus can be cured only with Vfend (Voriconazole) which is very expensive. There also might be other respiratory problems caused by canker, bacteria, mites, even worms. If you can afford some lab tests, you can find exactly what it is, otherwise you might try to give medicine for one or another, weakening their immune system. Also the money you spend on medicines are economically better invested in lab test (is cheaper then to try several sorts of medicines, I guess).

If you see the problem agravates (breathing becomes louder), you must think at Aspergillus or mites. Aspergillus could also be treated with Itraconazole (quite expensive too, but not as Voriconazole), though may be resistent to this drug.



> Tomorrow is the last day of canker and they have not made it better.


Possibly is not canker. At canker, the droppings are pale green & lemon yellow or only lemon yellow in grave cases.



> Is the E-Coli medicine very strong?
> 
> I do not want to give them more and more medicine.


I would say is good to give medicines for e-coli only if occurs a severe, sudden worsening, with the droppings becomeing transparent corn-yellow liquid. And for that you should use lincospectin (injectable) or enrofloxacine (also injectable). If you don't do, in 1-2 days bird dies. but if you have only the signs you said, like those types of droppings in photos, you better give probiotics, other supplements and a pleasantful food (food must not seen as a combustible, is basically their main source of happiness). With time, the color of droppings will turn more normal as they develop immunity.

Also, yellow droppings might comes from too much fat or proteins in food. Give less than 15% peas and sunflower (15% together) or other fat & protein rich seeds.

Another cause for yellow droppings is medicines, especially the Furazolidone causes a very yellow droppings. In the cause of Furazolidone is nothing to worry, but in the case of other drugs, like Colistin yes.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> From what I've read, fast and soundy breathing may be an advanced, hopeless Aspergillus. I hope is not. Advanced Aspergillus can be cured only with Vfend (Voriconazole) which is very expensive. There also might be other respiratory problems caused by canker, bacteria, mites, even worms. If you can afford some lab tests, you can find exactly what it is, otherwise you might try to give medicine for one or another, weakening their immune system. Also the money you spend on medicines are economically better invested in lab test (is cheaper then to try several sorts of medicines, I guess).
> 
> If you see the problem agravates (breathing becomes louder), you must think at Aspergillus or mites. Aspergillus could also be treated with Itraconazole (quite expensive too, but not as Voriconazole), though may be resistent to this drug.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply.

It is not cost that is a problem it is getting good tests. One man only does swab and did not take culture just looked in microscope and told me 'bacteria' and gave me mix of antibiotics.

Other vet not answering his phone and does not know pigeons but only parrots. When I take droppings samples he never told me, for this disease to show you need samples of more days. He just tells me; roundworm or nothing.

Otherwise I have my dog vet but I dont know if they do any tests on birds.

they eat pigeon mix, and they do not like the peas very much so protein should not be very high I think?

Some droppings are pale green but canker medicine did not fix it.

Can I give coccidosis medicine? Is it very strong also?

Now the weather is very warm and humid for a few days. Can the breathing problem be something else because of that?

And I am not sure, I thought it was feathers before, but today I think maybe one who has scruffy feathers (from lice and bullying) and has the fast breathing has a swollen shoulder and sometimes that wing end is higher than the other.
But he flies inside as normal, like the others. No different, so I thought it was feathers


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

LouisAnna23 said:


> It is not cost that is a problem it is getting good tests. One man only does swab and did not take culture just looked in microscope and told me 'bacteria' and gave me mix of antibiotics.


Bacteria can be observed only after a culture, that is, puting a sample of saliva in a medium that feed the bacteria (a little vessel with some substance they usually eat) and noticing if in few days bacteria multiplied. It can't be observed immediately and the observation is not made at microscope but with naked eye, it appears like a growth on the surface of food. So it needs few days. The same for fungi (candida, aspergillus). If he gave you antibiotics after immediate observation at microscope, that is surely false. 

On microscope, from feces or saliva sample can be oserveed on spot only the parasites: protozoa (unicellular organisms) like trichomonas (canker) and coccidia, worms (eggs of them). So if he gave you metronidazole, wormer or anti-ccoci medication after microscope observation, is ok, but if he gave you antibiotics (enrofloxacine, furazolidone etc) is completely wrong.



> Otherwise I have my dog vet but I dont know if they do any tests on birds.


They surely do, is the same procedure.



> they eat pigeon mix, and they do not like the peas very much so protein should not be very high I think?


As I said, fat (sunflower) and protein (peas and few others) together should not make more than 5% of the mix (sorry for my previous mistake, is not 15% but 5%). When I increased as little as to 10-15% I noticed the droppings become yellower and some weaker birds.



> Some droppings are pale green but canker medicine did not fix it.


There is a certain type of color, slighty fluorescent, that is associated with canker. Pale green is not.



> Can I give coccidosis medicine? Is it very strong also?


If the birds haven't been heavily medicated recently, yes. All medicines are toxic, more or less.

All the symptoms ill birds show are in fact generated by their organism modified by microbs or substances and other factors. Is not so much the microbs themselves that causes the symptoms. The medicines kill the microbs (I put under this word the microscopic organisms, be they bacteria, protozoa, fungi, mites) but also disturb the organism, the liver or other organs. Antibiotics kill the good, necessary flora of bacteria in digestive system (non-nocive species of bacteria needed for digestion) that have to be replaced with probiotics after the end of treatment) or affect the liver. Metronidazole affects the liver or in higher doses the nervous system etc. In some cases, like in easier infections with fungi (or even coccidia) the bird's organism can recover without medication, with good food, cleanliness of environment etc.



> Now the weather is very warm and humid for a few days. Can the breathing problem be something else because of that?


I don't think so. Humid and warm weather can be a factor of fungi proliferation but itself can't harm the birds. Aslo, on hot weather, the birds with respiratory problems are those who breath open-mouthed, others seem not to be affected so much.



> And I am not sure, I thought it was feathers before, but today I think maybe one who has scruffy feathers (from lice and bullying) and has the fast breathing has a swollen shoulder and sometimes that wing end is higher than the other.


I don't know, maybe I say something stupid, but maybe if he has an internal wound, maybe at air sacks, that reduces his breathing capacity and accelerates it but again, maybe is an infection that causes this, independent of the shoulder and wing problem.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> Bacteria can be observed only after a culture, that is, puting a sample of saliva in a medium that feed the bacteria (a little vessel with some substance they usually eat) and noticing if in few days bacteria multiplied. It can't be observed immediately and the observation is not made at microscope but with naked eye, it appears like a growth on the surface of food. So it needs few days. The same for fungi (candida, aspergillus). If he gave you antibiotics after immediate observation at microscope, that is surely false.
> 
> On microscope, from feces or saliva sample can be oserveed on spot only the parasites: protozoa (unicellular organisms) like trichomonas (canker) and coccidia, worms (eggs of them). So if he gave you metronidazole, wormer or anti-ccoci medication after microscope observation, is ok, but if he gave you antibiotics (enrofloxacine, furazolidone etc) is completely wrong.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply AndreiS. A lot of information. Thank you.

I went to buy liver tonic to help my birds get stronger and the pigeon 'not-vet' was there so I told him I still had this problem and more.

He was honest surprised anitbiotics did not work. So I feel less angry like he only wanted money and didn't think what he gave me.

I told him on Ropa-B they do ok. He said not to give more medicine and to keep on Ropa-B for 5 days in water, electrolytes and probiotcs on food.

They are ok for now. I did not hear the fast breathing but I did not try catch them today. I will wait till after 5 days and see if droppings are ok also not on the Ropa-B.

Can I give them bath water normally or should I not?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

LouisAnna23 said:


> I went to buy liver tonic to help my birds get stronger and the pigeon 'not-vet' was there so I told him I still had this problem and more.
> 
> He was honest surprised anitbiotics did not work. So I feel less angry like he only wanted money and didn't think what he gave me.


Either is some dishonest person who want to make you buy more or he doesn't know what is saying and if you follow his advices you damage or even kill your birds. There are too many medicines and they are general and no need to use more than one. The best general antibiotic is in my opinion the Lincospectin, administrable only by injection, but most will tell you is oral adminitered Enrofloxacine. Furazolidone is too weak and Cloramphenicol too toxic (in some countries, is out of use for this reason). 

Read about them or about anything else (Wikipedia is good in most situations) and start building your own understanding instead of asking advices, as the one that answers myght be wrong.



> I told him on Ropa-B they do ok. He said not to give more medicine and to keep on Ropa-B for 5 days in water, electrolytes and probiotcs on food.


That is correct, antibiotics shoudn't be given for more than 5-7 days, depending of the gravity of situation and their toxicity and after that a pause of 5 days should be made so that the gut flora to be rebuilt. Any medicine lowers organism's immune response capacity that means that after treatment period or even during it, the bird will be exposed to more infections. That is why the focus must be permanently of increasing immunity and well-being, by good food, good air, sun, elimination of any stress source and so on.



> Can I give them bath water normally or should I not?


I would give, as they like much and that increase their optimism. In fact, the stress is one of the main factors for a bird to become ill and I think is something psychological, that is, stress makes them scared and unhappy and pessimism makes them more susceptible to catch a disease.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what happend with treating them for canker and keeping it simple?

if you have medication for canker that should be given as said days ago


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

spirit wings said:


> what happend with treating them for canker and keeping it simple?
> 
> if you have medication for canker that should be given as said days ago


Thank you for your reply.
I did give them canker medicine (Ronidazole) for 3 days. Droppings become a little drier but not change colour and did not change much. So not so simple.

I put on probiotcs after canker for one day and went to buy liver tonic. I talked to guy who gave me the antibiotics before and he said to leave on Ropa-B and probiotics for 5 days and wait.

They have been on Ropa-B for 2 days now. Droppings are dry but colour changes from hungry green to dark green to brown everyday. And there are small seed parts left in the droppings. I think after 5 days Ropa-B and a few days I will give them for coccidosis. Because i never gave them for that and someone mention that seeds in droppings is coccidosis probably.

Do you think this is good idea>?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*You need to give the canker medication as are on instructions for a week or more and then if it is still there put them on another canker medication. You cannot stop giving it until it is gone.*


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Skyeking said:


> *You need to give the canker medication as are on instructions for a week or more and then if it is still there put them on another canker medication. You cannot stop giving it until it is gone.*


Thank you for your reply.

Instructions on packet say 2-3days. I gave 3 days.

How do I know it is gone? I do not know if they had canker. It was suggestion by people here as common and maybe cause of wet droppings and maybe cause of yellow uriates (which stop on Ropa-B) so they say try treat canker.

But if problem not canker I cannot keep giving them many canker medicines again and again.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

LouisAnna23 said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> I did give them canker medicine (Ronidazole) for 3 days. Droppings become a little drier but not change colour and did not change much. So not so simple.
> 
> I put on probiotcs after canker for one day and went to buy liver tonic. I talked to guy who gave me the antibiotics before and he said to leave on Ropa-B and probiotics for 5 days and wait.
> ...


The aspect of droppings is not a reason to start medication, without other signs, like vomiting, losing weight, apathy etc.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

LouisAnna23 said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> Instructions on packet say 2-3days. I gave 3 days.
> 
> ...


*If you are not even sure the bird has canker, then you give the medicine for the duration of treatment time that it states on the box, follow the directions, a couple of days doesn't cure it, if canker is present. Once the medication has been given per directions, then quit.

If they have a bad case, you have to continue treatment and even change to a different canker med if it is a bad case of canker, because once you stop it will start coming back.

This is the only medication I recommend giving to a pigeon if you not sure, because canker kills quickly. *


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Skyeking said:


> *If you are not even sure the bird has canker, then you give the medicine for the duration of treatment time that it states on the box, follow the directions, a couple of days doesn't cure it, if canker is present. Once the medication has been given per directions, then quit.
> 
> If they have a bad case, you have to continue treatment and even change to a different canker med if it is a bad case of canker, because once you stop it will start coming back.
> 
> This is the only medication I recommend giving to a pigeon if you not sure, because canker kills quickly. *


But the box says 2-3 days.....If i give longer I am going against the instructions from the company


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

LouisAnna23 said:


> But the box says 2-3 days.....If i give longer I am going against the instructions from the company


*Please post a clear picture of the entire label. Thank you.*


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Thank you for your reply


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

LouisAnna23 said:


> Hello, please advice me on what this could be.
> 
> My bird vet has not answered the phone since weeks ago and yest I drove all the way to him but was told he is abroad until 2 mondays later.
> 
> ...


Hi LouisAnna,
When you talked of using combination meds in your previous other thread I think I advised you that combination meds are good for nothing. Since you said that the meds are advised by a experienced guy you were asked to go ahead.

You never vaccinate your birds for anything until they get healthy. The pmv vaccination which you gave them had complicated the things for you.+you never gave liver tonic to see if that gives you positive results.
Please don't trust instructions on products IF THEY ARE NOT SPECIFICALLY MADE FOR PIGEONS.
Ronidazole works for flock treatment if given with correct dosage and for required number of days e.g, 5-10 days for treatment. If ronidazole showed some results you should continued it for more days.

E.coli isn't something that can be easily treated until you know to what antibiotics the strains are sensitive to.... But most strains are sensitive to neomycin and doxycycline combined with tylosin or baytril/enrofloxacine. Doxycycline combined with enrofloxacine/baytril will take care of respiratory upsets too. (I can't be sure but I think some of your birds have E.Coli+ADENO virus infection.)
Canker and Cocci is something which you MUST always prevent/treat for,timely cuz these affect birds in times of stress especially. 

For now keep it simple,don't overload the birds with ACV,probiotics and vitamins/minerals. They WILL stress the liver resulting in bad droppings. Overuse of pre+probiotics also cause system dysfunction.
As skyeking asked for it,can you post a clear pic of ronidazole bottle?

Are you free feeding your birds?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thanks for posting pics of ronidazole. I see it. Treat with this product for 7 days


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*

These instructions are for prevention actual treating full blown canker requires 5 to 7 days and longer if it is a resistant strain of canker. *


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Thank you for your replies

*Since I stopped the medicine do I start again and give for 7 days from the beginning?*

*I never gave them for coccidosis. Should I give them now, after the canker medicine or wait to talk to vet?*

I know what you said. I listened to everything.

When I said I did not have liver tonic, but I had Ropa-B you said its ok give them that.
When I went to buy liver tonic as extra help a few days ago the guy also told me if they are ok on Ropa-B use that, no need for liver tonic.

Yes, the many antibiotics are no use as you said - but this guy is the pigeon guy of my area. Like I said, everyone who I talk to who has pigeons tells me to go to him. So I did what he said. Even with PMV injections since said not normal droppings could be from medicine itself and since they all look healthy (at the time ; and now only one maybe not) we gave injection.

No, I will not treat for E-coli or anything else before I get good tests. Good tests which this pigeon guy seems not to do so I have no choice and wait till other vet comes back from abroad and answers the phone.

Probiotics, what is too much?
I followed packet instructions right after antibiotics to give for 5 days and then stopped. I did normal routine as even you suggested of giving plain water days between.

Now giving 5 days Ropa-B and probiotics and electolytes as pigeon guy said again. And as I thought myself and wanted to do to help them get healthy again on their own.

Ropa-B packets says it can be given all the time. So 5 days cannot be too much.

Electrolytes if they are too much they will just be wasted and come out in their droppings like with people.

*Probiotics,what is too much? I don't know. But this packet with probiotics and electrolyes together does not say limits. Please is 5 days too much?*


I thank you for your advice but please do not tell me things like 'I told you so before' because I read everything everyone said and replied all the time.

I have bad grammar but I read English. 
I am not stupid. I don't invent things for myself and know how to read a label. I don;t buy any med I feel like but talk to pigeon people about what they give and what works best for them. And then see if it works for me as all are racers and give a lot a lot of medicines every month. which I do not want to do.

Please I am trying my best to get my birds healthy and keep them healthy.
I am not thinking for a miracle cure that makes everything better tomorrow.

I gave 3 days because packet said 3 days. If you tell me 7 days, I will give them for 7.

But I don't have experience. And I do not know when I need to come with medicines and when it is best to leave them get better. I am slowly learning about tests and what to make sure my vet does and if answers make sense.

So please do not tell me I told you so before, or you should have given canker med before or keep it simple because it makes me cry with stress that people giving adivce have not read my replies or that I ahve not got my message across good and people are giving me advice for misunderstanding.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Skyeking said:


> *
> 
> These instructions are for prevention actual treating full blown canker requires 5 to 7 days and longer if it is a resistant strain of canker. *


Thank you for your reply. I will give them for 7 days

Do I start the treatment from the beginning again?


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

I was free feeding when I give dry food.
But I had to stop when giving the probiotics with food because I did not want to leave them in the hot day


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes Louis,you'll have to start ronidazole treatment again for continous 7-10 days.

Yes you're right with your decision,not to blind treat your pigeon for what comes your way. Wait till your vet comes back and get all the tests done.

I know your intentions are good to help your birds,all I want to say is that many things can stress your birds. The instructions of your probiotics tell to give for 5 continous days but for 5 days in how much time period. After how much duration they need to be given again? If you gave for 5 days then you don't need to give it again for atleast a week or a couple of weeks. Some pre+probiotics contain streptococcus speices of bacteria that can overgrow and harm your bird showing salmonella like symptoms.

Please don't stress yourself. See,now you've tried the "pigeon guy" in your area. Don't go to him again. Wait for your vet to come back. 


(The birds should not be vaccinated when they're ill)


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Do not free feed your birds (until issues are over). Measure the feed about a tablespoon per pigeon and feed it twice and check how much they're eating. Remove the leftover feed. Moniter your birds behaviour. Separate those who are not behaving normally,especially those who are pooping yellow droppings and undigested grains in them and handfeed them so that they don't go weak.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Yes Louis,you'll have to start ronidazole treatment again for continous 7-10 days.
> 
> Yes you're right with your decision,not to blind treat your pigeon for what comes your way. Wait till your vet comes back and get all the tests done.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your reply and information.

I will restart ronidazole tomorrow.
Probiotics in food I will stop. Should I give separate electrolytes?
Ropa-B I also stop while on ronidazole right?

Will they be ok with just Ronidazole in the water for 7 days or do I need to give them something else also?

Thank you


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Do not free feed your birds (until issues are over). Measure the feed about a tablespoon per pigeon and feed it twice and check how much they're eating. Remove the leftover feed. Moniter your birds behaviour. Separate those who are not behaving normally,especially those who are pooping yellow droppings and undigested grains in them and handfeed them so that they don't go weak.


Thank you for your reply.

Yellow droppings have stopped on the Ropa-B but i think will start again when i remove it. undigested seeds are still seen. Only 1 or 2 birds don't have undigested seeds in one loft with the sick birds. Can i remove the good birds instead? I don't have space to move all the sick birds out.

I started feeding out of my hands yesterday and today because when i just put in the feeder they only eat for a few minutes then display to each other (all males in this one) and it takes them long to eat food (i give 15ml scoop each pigeon) and they always leave the corn and peas to last. So i was throwing away all their corn and big peas.

They eat a lot more from my hands. I don't know why. 

The only one who looks a little grey on his nose is very easy with me so I make sure he eats a lot. Today he ate a little from the feeder morning and evening and a handful (maybe 30 or 40ml) from my hand.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

OH MY GOD!!!
You wanna say all your birds have undigested grains in their droppings??? DON'T TREAT FOR ANYTHING. Don't stress your birds with any medication.
Are your birds droppings smelly/stinky too? Just add little ACV in water.

(If birds are gonna be okay till vet arrives then it alright unless treat for COCCIDIOSIS,nothing else.)


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I would suggest you to wait until vet arrives. Its either coccidiosis or e.coli+adeno virus.
Could be PDD too...
I have my finger crossed. Hope everything remains ok till the vet comes back and I'll pray he comes back soon.
When you have time do post pics of droppings with undigested grains in them.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> OH MY GOD!!!
> You wanna say all your birds have undigested grains in their droppings??? DON'T TREAT FOR ANYTHING. Don't stress your birds with any medication.
> Are your birds droppings smelly/stinky too? Just add little ACV in water.
> 
> (If birds are gonna be okay till vet arrives then it alright unless treat for COCCIDIOSIS,nothing else.)


All birds in one section have it. Not all the time but over a week they will all make them except 2. There are 8 birds in the section only.

There is no smell.


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

These pictures are from a few days before but this is what I see, like this or a little less whole seed but droppings are 'rough'


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> I would suggest you to wait until vet arrives. Its either coccidiosis or e.coli+adeno virus.
> Could be PDD too...
> I have my finger crossed. Hope everything remains ok till the vet comes back and I'll pray he comes back soon.
> When you have time do post pics of droppings with undigested grains in them.


What is PDD please?

Doesn't Adeno virus kill birds fast? My birds have had not normal droppings since I got them in February.
Before they were just wet and green before, not yellow or undigested seed or green uriate
but they were not normal for a long time


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Anna, most of my birds had or still have droppings (permanently or ocassionally) like those in your photos (except the photos with darker color droppings, which are not clear). I tested several of them and none had canker but e-coli. So is useless to threat them for canker.

You may threat with baytril only those with very yellow or with brown (like in last photo) droppings and for 1-2 days, no more, though at me even that sort of droppings disappeared without treatment. 

E-coli is found in any pigeon and only when is a serious increase can cause damage, but then is associated with more serious symptoms, not only droppings color.


So I advice you to stop canker medication and keep only with immunizing supplements.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thanks for the pic LouisAnna23,
Phewww, you scared me for your birds by saying they are pooping out undigested grains.
So your birds don't poop undigested grains all the time,that's really good. It maybe adeno virus that's making troubles for your pigeons. Adeno virus attacks the liver and intestinal wall. Since liver and intestinal wall are attacked by adeno,yellow droppings with PARTIALLY undigested grains can be a symptom. Adeno virus attacks pigeons and open door to other infections caused by *e.coli,salmonella[,/B]worms,canker,cocci etc. When e.coli and/or other secondary bacterial/protozoan increase in numbers because of adeno that's when it becomes deadly. Otherwise adeno may be over in a week's time.

The antibiotics with which you treated you birds with may have helped them during this. E.coli,salmonella and canker attack liver. You already have treated with antibacterials but antiprotozoans(for canker and cocci) were not given. Sooooo.... Ok
good thing is that you have vet facility which you can access in a couple of days time. So I would say, wait and avail it and get a good bacterial examination.*


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## LouisAnna23 (May 4, 2014)

Thank you for your replies

I will leave them on water till I see my vet.

I will tell him to test for canker, coccidosis, E-coli and adeno virus.

Since he is a parrot and not pigeon vet can you help me get ready questions for him please?

Like I read that coccidosis you need 3 days droppings to be sure. Which he never told me, so I will make sure to tell him. 

How do they test for Adeno virus? And what can the treatments be? I had read it is not treatable in adults but maybe that is wrong?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

So sorry for delay in replying. I don't know what was wrong with net connections.

So,first thing,don't give any medications at all preferably for 5-7 days so that tests can show the bacteria/protozoa.

Diagnois for Coccidiosis is done with faecal flotation. Take droppings from several pigeons. If one has not shed eggs(oocyst) others might have. Oocysts will be seen in droppings in (large)numbers if its coccidiosis,which I think it is. Also in blood, red blood cell count and protein content will be low.

There are many tests for adeno virus. I don't know what apparatus is available with your vet. In new tests, droppings are examined for chemical reactions to some agents. If its adeno virus the stripe turn blue.
Adeno virus open doors to other secondary bacterial infections,which takes its toll on pigeons. So basically its not the adeno virus,its the combination with bacterial infections that takes a bird away. Adult pigeons are immune to adeno but can go down with it if there's other bacterial infections going on especially e.coli which is often called adeno-e.coli syndrome. You can treat for e.coli in such cases. A harmless disinfectant like citromed can be added to drinking water for adeno


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