# Swollen bloody eyelids, feather loss - HELP!



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I went into the loft yesterday morning and "Handsome's" head and neck was covered with blood and one eye was swollen with a white pussy discharge! I brought him inside to clean him up. Found NO marks on him. Initially I thought it was a case of cocks being cocks so I set him up inside again. Only thing I did notice once he was set up is that he shaked his head off and on. Other than that - nothing. Eating and drinking and poops are fine. So I decided to clean my other aviary and set him up out there with some docile friends. Got him set up then went into the loft to pick some friends.
I ended up pulling out about 11 cocks - with the same problem - less the blood! Feather loss on the back of the head and neck, a couple all the way around the neck! Swollen eye cere (on one side only), one birds was a little bloody. And alot of head shaking! Eating and drinking and poops are fine. I'm thinking lice or something (but I don't see any) so in a panic they all got an Ivomec bath tub and I sprayed the one's that didn't take a bath. Any suggestions?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you post a picture?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Does It look like this?*

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/information-haemophilus.php


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Can you post a picture?


It was too dark by the time I finished moving, cleaning and spraying everyone!
I will take pictures in the morning. 
I feel so bad for them! Because of the head shaking, I have a feeling that they are doing the damage to themselves. Which is why I'm thinking external parasites of some type.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/information-haemophilus.php


No, not quite. The outer skin (around the eye) is swollen, but NOT the inner (3rd eyelid).


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you have a blue light at work? Maybe you could take one with you and put it under the blue light.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you see anything like it in these pictures?
http://images.google.com/images?hl=...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Do you see anything like it in these pictures?
> http://images.google.com/images?hl=...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title


No not really. The eye itself looks fine. Its the outer skin so swollen that it makes the eye look sucken in. And they all have feather loss around the neck and back of head.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Do you have a blue light at work? Maybe you could take one with you and put it under the blue light.


Yes I do, what am I looking for? Fungas?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ency weensy bugs I thought.
I still think it's one of the two things I sent you the links for.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm just not sure what to treat for 
The first link says to treat with tylosin (which I have).
If its conjuctivitis - how do I treat that? And could the underlying cause be parasites?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I didn't read anything about parasites causing something like that. Let me see what I can find for conjunctivitis treatment. I would start them on the tylosin.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you have this link?
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/204300.htm


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Chevitas link for conjunctivitis mentions treating with tetracycline, which I have also. Which one do you think would be best - tylan or tetracycline?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

That last link mentions tetracycline. So I think I should start with that. I've always had good luck with that medication whenever in doubt.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm going to ask Terry to look at this thread...so don't go away.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I called her and she is going to read the thread and give you her opinion. Whatever it is...it's very contagious.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

OK thanks, I'll wait!
Just thought I would mention, there is no nasal discharge or sneezing. And otherwise they are all acting normal.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, I'm not going to be of much help. Without pictures it's impossible to make even an educated guess as to what's going on. The feather loss makes me think this is being caused by some type of parasite, but the verbal description of the swollen eyelids makes me think more along the lines that Charis has already posted. Also, it's a bit strange that only the cock birds are having this problem .. unless they are beating up one another for some reason.

Soooo .. after that useless paragraph .. I think I would go with the Tylosin for right now. Actually somewhere here on P-T is the treatment protocol for house finch conjunctivitis .. it's a bit old, but I remember that Maggie (Lady Tarheel) and I were both posting similar treatments in the thread. I'll see if I can find it and will post back the link here. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Here's the link, and as I thought, the protocol was a combo of Terramycin eye ointment and Tylosin in the drinking water.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f30/finch-eye-disease-13539.html?highlight=finch+conjunctivitis

Terry


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Well, I'm not going to be of much help. Without pictures it's impossible to make even an educated guess as to what's going on. The feather loss makes me think this is being caused by some type of parasite, but the verbal description of the swollen eyelids makes me think more along the lines that Charis has already posted. Also, it's a bit strange that only the cock birds are having this problem .. unless they are beating up one another for some reason.
> 
> Soooo .. after that useless paragraph .. I think I would go with the Tylosin for right now. Actually somewhere here on P-T is the treatment protocol for house finch conjunctivitis .. it's a bit old, but I remember that Maggie (Lady Tarheel) and I were both posting similar treatments in the thread. I'll see if I can find it and will post back the link here.
> 
> Terry


I know thats strange, thats why I thought at first the cocks were beating each other up. None of the hens are affected AND none of the docile cocks either. Thats what makes this so confusing. I have to go to bed but I will check back first thing in the morning. Thank you and Charis for your help.
Waynette


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just a thought, perhaps the more assertive males are making physical contact with one another, thus passing on a possible infection, where the others you mention are not making contact.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I was going to post last night a new thread about my fantail Hamilton. Sounds like he has the same thing going on, swollen bloody eyelid. I started him on Flagyl for the reason that Hami also has some tiny whitish lumps at the corner of his beak and some slimey secretions.
His eye, I washed with saline and applied some colloidal silver. Will go now and see what it looks like today.

How is your birds eye today, have you started him on Tylan?

Reti


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*Here's the pictures*

Sorry it took me so long to get back - computor problems!!
























Also, I have been on the phone with work to find out the mg strength of the tylan that I have. No luck. So I don't know the dosage to give the birds! What I have is 1/8 tsp tylan (put into capsules for my 35 lb dog). The bottle at work stated 100 gram base tylosin. How do I figure out the dosage? Wouldn't tetracycline work? The worst case is "Mia", it seems to be worse with the older more aggresive cocks. He's having trouble flying because its in both eyes!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, I'm really sorry this is happening to your birds. It has me puzzled because of all the finches and sparrows we have treated for the Finch Eye Disease, none showed any blood and their feathers were not affected.

It does sound like some type of conjunctivitis and I'm wondering if the birds are being pecked by other birds causing the blood around the neck and eye. Whatever it is sounds contagious.

If you have access to a vet, it would probably be wise to let them check one bird. I pulled the following from the literature I have on Finch Eye Disease. I don't think your pigeons have the exact Finch Eye Disease but treatment protocol should be the same I would think for any type of conjunctivitis.

NCSU/Tri-State Study MG Treatment Protocol

Excerpted from Mycoplasma Gallisepticum infections (Finch Eye Conjunctivitis), Erica Miller, DVM, NWRA Quarterly, Volume 14, No. 6, Summer 1996, page 6.

TREATMENT

"1) Topical antibiotic ophthalmic solution applied to the eyes twice daily until eyes appear clear (3-7 days). Two good eye drops are Ciprofloxacin HC1 (Ciloxin(r), Alcon Laboratories........or a triple antibiotic such as Polymyxin B sulfate/neomycin sulfate/gramicidin ophthalmic solution (Bausch & Lamb Pharmaceuticals, Inc........ In addition:

2) Tylosin tartrate (Tylan(r), Eli Lilly Company.....in water at 1 mg/ml (1/4 tsp per quart of water). To be effective, Tylan(r) must be the sole source of water drinking and bathing) for at least 21 days.

3) Birds are held for two weeks after completion of treatment. If clinical signs of disease have not appeared during this time, the birds are released."

It is really important to treat them for the period of time given.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

OK so that would be 8 of my capsules for a gallon of water - right?
I have triple optholmic ointment BUT it has hydrocortizone in it, your not suppose to use it if there is any scratches on the eye. But they keep shaking their heads so I am assuming it is itchy. Think it ok to use?
I will take Mia to work with me tomorrow and have the Dr. look at him


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, looking at the pictures, I'm still puzzled because they aren't exhibiting anything like conjunctivitis that I've seen. Frankly, I think it is probably mites that Charis and Terry talked about. I would personally treat them with something like Ivomec for the parasites and use salve on the eyes. 

On the Tylan, I'm not sure what the concentration would be with the capsules that you have. Maybe Pidgey will see this and give his input. I know the 1/4 tsp to a quart of water mentioned in the excerpt in my last post was for small birds. In any event, I'm not even sure I would start them on the Tylan without first making sure it is not mites.

Puzzling......


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Msfreebird said:


> OK so that would be 8 of my capsules for a gallon of water - right?
> I have triple optholmic ointment BUT it has hydrocortizone in it, your not suppose to use it if there is any scratches on the eye. But they keep shaking their heads so I am assuming it is itchy. Think it ok to use?
> I will take Mia to work with me tomorrow and have the Dr. look at him


Let's wait until Pidgey or Terry come back on for the correct Tylan dosage. I don't think it would do any harm to apply the salve you have. What are the ingredients in your salve?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Let's wait until Pidgey or Terry come back on for the correct Tylan dosage. I don't think it would do any harm to apply the salve you have. What are the ingredients in your salve?


My 1st thought was parasites, so everybody got ivomec in their water and bath yesterday, and I sprayed the ones that didn't take a bath. I have 2 different eye ointments, I will get them - be right back


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

2 Eye ointments I have -
Dexamethasone Sodium Phosphate - drops
Neomycin and Polymyxin B Sulfates, Bacitracin Zinc and Hydrocortisone - ointment


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

They are all sitting on the perches "shaking their heads" and scratching at their heads and necks. Could I dust them with sevin dust? (what I have is sevin garden dust)


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2008)

Msfreebird,
I've mentioned this in many places and many times and have yet to have one person learn it but for the sake of your birds, one more time:

There is no separation between the eyes and the sinuses which means that if a bird is showing signs of an eye infection, we don't know if it is truly that or a respiratory infection. The eye infection can easily travel to the sinuses and the sinuses can easily send the infection to the eyes. 

This means that a systemic antibiotic must be used to attack whatever the source of the infection is. You need to treat with two medications. the first is Doxycycline which is excellent for respiratory infections and you need to use an antibiotic eye ointment like a Terramycin in order to protect the eyes while the Doxycycline does its job. You can get these from Jedds, Foys, Segal's or Vitaking. 

This is apparently a highly contagious illness and all your birds need treatment otherwise you'll be playing ping pong with them. My personal opinion is that a sulpha drug is too weak for a respiratory infection. If you treat only the eyes, you may find your birds eventually dying from respiratory infection.

Do not put any antibiotic in the drinking water because whatever you do with it, the antibiotic is going to become diluted and the birds are not going to get the dose they need.

It's up to you who you will listen to but whatever you decide, act quickly.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Msfreebird said:


> 2 Eye ointments I have -
> Dexamethasone Sodium Phosphate - drops
> Neomycin and Polymyxin B Sulfates, Bacitracin Zinc and Hydrocortisone - ointment


LOL, I had forgotten you are a veterinarian assistant...

I think I would go with the Neomycin and Polymyxin B Sulfates and leave off the Bacitracin Zinc and Hydrocortisone if there is a question of a scratch in the eye.

I have two kinds - 1) Vetropolycin which is bacitracin-neomycin-polymyxin and 2) Terramycin.


About your last question on the Sevin dust. I wouldn't do that right now because you've already treated them with Ivomec but, hopefully, some of the other members will read this because it may be perfectly all right.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I understand what you are saying - problem is that I have 68 birds. To try and catch and medicate individually would be a full time job (and I am by myself). I have always had great luck with tetracycline in drinking water for upper respiratory problems. I have separated the one's with infected eyes (12), so I will try to get ointment into their eyes also. But I only have the 2 ointments that I listed available immediately. Could I use either one of those? I am guessing that the Dexamethasone would be the best.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> LOL, I had forgotten you are a veterinarian assistant...
> 
> I think I would go with the Neomycin and Polymyxin B Sulfates and leave off the Bacitracin Zinc and Hydrocortisone if there is a question of a scratch in the eye.
> 
> ...


Sorry - my previous post was in reply to Pigeonperson!
I can't leave off the Bacitracin Zinc/Hydrocortisone - its all in 1 ointment. Thats why I was thinking the dexamethasone. If they are causing the damage to themselves by scratching, any ointments with hydrocortisone can make it worse!


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2008)

Dexamethasone is in a class of steroids so it might reduce swelling but it won't get to the heart of the problem which is probably bacterial.
The one thing I'm worried about is the possibility of chlamydia and for that, you would have to take one of the ill birds in for tests at an avian vet. I don't know if you have one in your area or if you can afford it but there are two tests, one is more accurate and more expensive than the other.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it were a skin parasite, then you should be able to do a scraping onto a slide and examine by microscope.

On Tylosin, it's 50 mg/kg, PO, QD or 15-25 mg/kg, IM, TID-QID. Doesn't help much if you don't know what the formulation that you have actually is.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Personally, I don't think it's a parasite. If it were, they wouldn't all display in the same way...there would be more of a variance. It is very contagious. I do agree with pigeonperson about the sinus/eye connection. Have you added any new birds lately?
Does the vet you work for have no experience with birds?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm going to take Mia to work with me tomorrow and do a skin scraping and have him checked over. There aren't any avian vets close by me. Work is the best I have, and even know I work there - they really don't like to do pigeons. (I don't like vets for that reason) 
I'm just gonna go out and do the best I can


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Your best is all you can do. I think this is an urgent situation.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2008)

This is a list of avian vets in New Hampshire. I have no idea if any of them are within your locale and if you can spend the money but here they are:
http://www.aav.org/vet-lookup/locate-vet2.php?query_field=state&search_string=nh


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> This is a list of avian vets in New Hampshire. I have no idea if any of them are within your locale and if you can spend the money but here they are:
> http://www.aav.org/vet-lookup/locate-vet2.php?query_field=state&search_string=nh


Thanks, I use to work for Tony Guerino and he's helped me quite a bit over the phone.
I think I have figured something out though.
I just came in to to a break from cleaning and medicating. "Hansome's" face was all bloody again so I brought him back in. I examined each one of them and swabbed around their head and neck with diluted ivomec again (3cc/gal water). Found absolutely nothing on them. THE EYE ITSELF IS FINE. IT IS ONLY THE EXPOSED SKIN AROUND THE EYE. **What I DID notice is that everytime they shook their heads - these tiny tiny tiny little flying things were flying around their heads!!** So I came back in to check on Handsome - he is NOT shaking his head at all INSIDE. 
I think these tiny flies are biting the exposed skin (?), How do I get rid of this?
We've had alot of rain and its very hot and humid outside.
I've dusted the lofts with diotomacious earth but I get nervous with insecticides.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try bagging a bird with those flying things around them and then getting the bird out very carefully while trying to keep them in the bag. Then maybe you can get one isolated and looked at under a low power scope or magnifier to see what it is. That might help you figure out how to fight them.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I think the only thing that would help would be to put up screening around the area to keep the bugs out. If it is a flying insect, it doesn't seem like it would cause the blood.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> You might try bagging a bird with those flying things around them and then getting the bird out very carefully while trying to keep them in the bag. Then maybe you can get one isolated and looked at under a low power scope or magnifier to see what it is. That might help you figure out how to fight them.
> 
> Pidgey


OMG that ain't gonna happen, lol. Like I said, they are active in every other way and its a job catching them!! Maybe I could roll a piece of packing or duct tape and wave it in the air and try to "stick" some to it?! They are soooo tiny they look like flying "dust". I'll try


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I think the only thing that would help would be to put up screening around the area to keep the bugs out. If it is a flying insect, it doesn't seem like it would cause the blood.


I think the birds are causing the damage to themselves because they are being bitten by these tiny things. Handsome is the only one bleeding - but he is also the only one that has all those big warty type growths on his cere. Now that he's inside again, he's not shaking his head, scratching or bleeding.
I can't bring 68 birds inside! And screening the whole area is not financially possible.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I'll just throw in an idea here.. My loft was full of moths; I was advised by an old fancier to spray well with regular fly spray.. I questioned whether it would affect the birds and his reply was in the negative. I did take the precaution of removing all drink containers before I sprayed. The moths are long gone and the birds fine.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pigeonpoo said:


> I'll just throw in an idea here.. My loft was full of moths; I was advised by an old fancier to spray well with regular fly spray.. I questioned whether it would affect the birds and his reply was in the negative. I did take the precaution of removing all drink containers before I sprayed. The moths are long gone and the birds fine.


Whatever these things are, they fly and their tiny. I put everyone back together (except Handsome) because I can try to control and clear it up better in one spot. I checked everyone else again. The birds that are NOT AFFECTED AT ALL have little to no skin exposed around the eyes. "Handsome" has been inside for 4 hours now - the redness is going away, no head shaking or scratching. So now I'm sure its these little flying things!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Well i'LL be...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Well i'LL be...


.......what? LOL
Well, I'm 99.9% sure


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sure sounds like it is the flying critters. Wish every problem could be resolved like this one.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Sure sounds like it is the flying critters. Wish every problem could be resolved like this one.


Yah, now if I can figure out how to get rid of them. Spraying insecticides around the birds makes me very nervous.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try putting a pyrethrin spray onto a Q-Tip and dobbing it on the feathers of the head. It probably wouldn't work like a repellent, though... Are there any of those "No Pest Strips" that hang in little boxes of their own that'll attract and PROSECUTE-WITH-EXTREME-PREJUDICE the little... (searching for an approved, but strong word here... ) boogers?

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> You might try putting a pyrethrin spray onto a Q-Tip and dobbing it on the feathers of the head. It probably wouldn't work like a repellent, though... Are there any of those "No Pest Strips" that hang in little boxes of their own that'll attract and PROSECUTE-WITH-EXTREME-PREJUDICE the little... (searching for an approved, but strong word here... ) boogers?
> 
> Pidgey


I was wondering about that myself - gonna check with the hardware store tomorrow. I got a PM with the suggestion to put a bowl of salt water in a small birdcage and put it in the loft to see if it attracts these little buggers (whereas they are going after the eyes). It worked, the bowl is full of these tiny little "gnats"? I have a large overhang around the flight area, I could hang them all along - outside the loft. Worth a try! It is so hot, damp and humid right now, the bugs carry you away.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I remember those New Hampshire bugs. Those darn mosquitoes are out all day long.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> I remember those New Hampshire bugs. Those darn mosquitoes are out all day long.


It doesn't help that I am in the woods and it stays moist, cooler but moister - which equals = more bugs! I can't go out into the yard to work without my can of "OFF"


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Msfreebird said:


> I got a PM with the suggestion to put a bowl of salt water in a small birdcage and put it in the loft to see if it attracts these little buggers (whereas they are going after the eyes). It worked, the bowl is full of these tiny little "gnats"?


Low-Tech... yeah!

Pidgey


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