# Tortoiseshell or ?



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Scroll down for photo (added later) but what causes "tortoiseshell" (in pigeons, not cats). A bird with dark tail and wing tips, but light shields with a lot of red?


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Like this?








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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Usually a combination of grizzle, kite, one dose of recessive red (optional) on a blue bird makes torts also known as tri-colour. I have 3 tort frillbacks at the moment.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I guess you can swap grizzle for tiger grizzle and swap kite for modena bronze ect.
They shouldnt really have light wing shields but should be an even mix of grizzle blue and red (bronze) all over.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Do you have a photo of your tortoiseshell frillback? We may have a tort youngster.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

tjc...what I am thinking of is a bit different. I like that bird of yours a lot. Think she is an older/darker almond with some white. Very nice looking.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Yep its a almond. But I was trying to see what a tort would involve. Is a 3 color female a tortoise shell? I don't know so thats why I put the picture up their. Or is a specific coloring pattern.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Tortiseshell is a t-check grizzle. It may or may not have significant bronzing in shield but will have white or partial white feathers throughout neck and shield (typical of grizzle). Also typically expresses an undergrizzle effect in tail and flights.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Bronzing is required to make tortiseshell. Blue T pattern, Het Grizzle, Kite Bronze are required and Het rec red helps to enhance the kite

Luke is right that a blue T check with modena bronze and het grizzle could appear tortisehell aswell as a few other combos

Tmass - I always thought a blue T Grizzle was just that, A blue T, with grizzle usually being Inhibited somewhat by the T pattern.

Heres my wee tort tippler

She is T Pat blue, Het grizzle, Kite and het rec red aswell as dirty.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

This is a hen when she was young and then a couple of months later. I bred her last year. She has better curl now. Shes Bc2 or 1/8 WOE. 
I have two more youngsters like her this year. I'm not sure if these are torts. They appear to be blue, t-check, grizzle, kite. But they arn't the classic tort I picture when I think of tort. Something is making the shield white. I suspect agate which would be cool because I could make red whitesides.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

That is cool Luke!! She is pretty. I think this is what our little hen is going to look like.....she is in the nest still smaller than even your pic of yours when younger. She has the white shield and the dark tips of flights and dark tail. I don't know if ours will be as grizzled around the head but those feathers are still pins right now. I don't have my camera today.....will try to get a photo within a day or two. Mother is a yellow grizzle (single dose grizzle) and father is the red t-pattern I have shown here before. They previously produced a red grizzle (with very white shield), an ash yellow non-grizzle and a regular kite (non-grizzle).


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Evan-
Thanks for that pic and information too! I wonder if there is something in the frillback make-up making the shield so white(?).


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

Here's one that i bred;










Lloyd


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Woodnative said:


> Evan-
> Thanks for that pic and information too! I wonder if there is something in the frillback make-up making the shield so white(?).


Luke and I talked about it last night and thought a few things, 

Agate as luke mentioned, The first cross he used was a WOET that had a rose on the wing so this is possible

Or this bird could be **** grizzle with something causing the tail and neck areas to not show as much grizzling as usual storks. Could be dirty, Could be the het rec red or could possibly just be the fact the frillback grizzle has been selected to not express as much as on other breeds. Hard to know for sure without breeding tests and hundreds more FB's.

I guess tortiseshell, like all phenotypes has a set out standard of what it *should* look like but all birds that are blue, Kite and het grizzle will have a tortiseshell appearance to them.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

tmaas said:


> Tortiseshell is a t-check grizzle. It may or may not have significant bronzing in shield but will have white or partial white feathers throughout neck and shield (typical of grizzle). Also typically expresses an undergrizzle effect in tail and flights.


Evan, what is your definition of "significant"?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

This is three young kite grizzles I bred not long ago. One bar and the other two I suspect are t-check. Are they torts?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Grizzle and Modena bronze. Are they torts?


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Great pics. Here is our little frillback. Looks like she should be similar to your birds. So this is definately blue-based, yes? In that case this is a hen. Surprised/confused about how much red is showing through. Her siblings are very curly so I hope she is too. Unfortunately can not keep them all!!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Chris, Yeah this one looks like it might have the white shield like some of lukes. Yeap it is blue based.

Tmass, My definition of significant is the same as the dictionaries one last time I checked.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Is the white shield caused by grizzle on t-pattern? Is it something frillback related? The father bird has no grizzle in his background. The mother bird is a "typical" frillback yellow grizzle though she only carries one copy of the grizzle gene. The white on her is mostly around the head and neck. They produced a red offspring earlier this year (one of the birds we had for sale) with a lot of white in the shield area too.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Usually a het grizzle T would show minimal grizzling in the shield so its something frillback related, Could be agate, Could be that frillbacks have the (white grizzle) gene people claim is out there. Hard to say. But its certainly not normal for a het T grizzle to have such a white shield


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

My T-pattern het. grizzles start off with light shields and moult in more color later. Maybe that is the case here too.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

These light shielded grizzles appear to be barless pattern. Does barless exist in the frillback population? Also, if both parents are barred then the offspring cannot be t-check. They can only be barred or barless.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Rudolph, These birds moult out and still look the same, Well lukes do atleast anyway

Tmass, Barless is not in frillbacks.


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## nancybird (Jan 30, 2011)

Very pretty birds.


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

tmaas said:


> These light shielded grizzles appear to be barless pattern. Does barless exist in the frillback population? Also, if both parents are barred then the offspring cannot be t-check. They can only be barred or barless.


Father of the torti is a T-pattern.

NOT barless, there are no barless Frillbacks,


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

My three like this came from a blue kite, het grizzle, t-check, het rec red hen paired to a blue bar grizzle.


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