# Concerns about Baytril



## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Hello all. 

The loft is looking pretty good. Have a lot of birds breeding now, and with some success. The only birds still giving problems are about 8 or 9 hens. I've talked to our vet, and he believes the problem is paratyphoid, and recommended baytril as a treatment. 

I have read some this evening on baytril, and am a bit concerned. For one thing, it seems the cost of this stuff is rather high. The only thing i found at foy's website was a liquid product. 

The other site I came accross that seemed to contain info on baytril seemed very against it's use. They stated that baytril often causes severe birth defects in youngsters. Now, i've never used it, so i have no idea? fred?? lol. If anyone knows about baytril, please respond and give some opinions on the product. 

Thanks again, Dave

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David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

Hi,
All the people I talk to only use it after they have tryed everything else... 


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Ryan Harvey
~*~Crossbreed Lofts~*~
http://www.angelfire.com/or3/crossbreedloft


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

a lot of the anti-biotics have a warning that you shouldn't use them during the breeding season (can harm the eggs/babies)

But, if your choice is losing the adult birds (and therefore the eggs/babies too), or just not letting them hatch the eggs while their being treated, which is best?

Something just occurred to me.....we use a product called bio-moss. You mix it in with the feed...it is a natural health/immune system booster....does some other stuff too, I can't remember what. Last fall, we had a couple of birds sneezing in the loft...I realized I'd not been using this stuff for a while, so started again. Sneezing went away. We've got a few birds looking "down" and sneezing a bit now too....tried a course of antibiotics, but they're still not 100%. Hubby mentioned last night he'd been forgetting the bio-moss again..... So we'll be trying it again before trying a different med. You can get bio-moss at: http://www.ctlloft.com/ 

I know of several other people who use it, and swear by it. It's easier to use if you mix a little bit of corn or peanut oil into the food, then add a bit of biomoss (oil makes it stick). Do not use canola oil in your birds food....it seems to cause intestinal problems.....


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## Bethany (May 14, 2002)

Dave:

I have turtles and they often require Baytril for certain ilnesses. We have 2 turtles at this time which have had rather intense treatments for thei age (1 year old) and have not seemed to be totally over what they were being treated for.

Yesterday we had a 4th vet in our home and she is an Avian/Reptile vet who lectures and has had articles printed in Reptile USA etc...she was very surprised at the regime given by the previous vet who saw them and stated that baytril is very costic and can sometimes cause lameness/nerve damage in legs etc...

She gave them each a dose of Doxycycline which a new drug they have been using in the Avian. And basically what I took away from what she had to say was this:

Once they receive a shot, they do not get another injection for 7 days (or thereabouts, keep in mind in my case she was talking about turtles not birds so that may vary a bit)the medication can be sustained in the blood stream for quite a time and release out. So maybe you should ask your vety to look into this, my vet said it's very good and non-costic to the aninmal.

Hope maybe it will give you a new direction to look into.

Bethany


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

From my experience using Baytril, if the bird I am treating has a bactierial infection, Baytril can clear it up. Some of the other diseases Baytril will not help. The amount given to any bird, small or large, young or old, will vary and this is where caution should be used.
Carl


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Dave, I have veterinary nurse training and over the years have used Baytril on hundreds of occasions and never had a problem. I have also used it very agressively last year when I had paratyphoid in my loft. It was highly successful. However, there are one or two things one should know about Baytril- 
It is the best antibiotic on the market. It is the only antibiotic for Paratyphoid, therefore you have no choice. It is also very agressive, and a certain number of weeks on Baytril will leave a completely sterile gut. No other antibiotic is able to do that. Therefore it is recommended that a probiotic be given 48 and 96 hours after the last dose of Baytril to introduce natural gut flora back into the system. Without this the sterile stomach lining is open to any nasties which care to invade it, which is why some birds will become ill and die very suddenly soon after completing a course of Baytril. This is uncommon though.
The other thing to beware of is that Baytril is known to inhibit bone growth and unless absolutely necessary should not be given to a growing youngster. The reason this occurs is because Baytril alters the DNA structure as it works. This therefore can cause a restricted growth. It is also the reason why it should not be given to pregnant mammals- it will cause birth defects. In the case of birds, it will only cause birth defects if the hen is ovulating at the time of taking the drug. What happens is that as the yolk together with the female ovum passes down the oviduct it is fertilised by the sperm from the cock bird. Cell division from the fertilised ovum can occur as it continues its journey down the oviduct before being surrounded by albumen, then the shell and finally laid. Therefore I would suggest that any eggs laid during and up to a week after a course of Baytril should be discarded.
It does not cause birth defects in generations to come, or in subsequent offspring from the birds which were originally dosed, therefore I feel you can use Baytril safely.
One item worthy of note. When it comes to treating paratyphoid, the aim is to reach and maintain a high level of antibiotic in the system for a certain length of time- 10 days to 2 weeks. In order to do this and eliminate the Paratyphoid correctly this means individual dosing on a daily basis. One cannot rely on putting it in the drinking water and hoping every bird will drink sufficient amounts each day to reach and maintain that level. Hard work I agree, but the results are well worth it. The birds in my loft are living proof of the effort I put in last year.
On a final note, as I reached this point, Laura my vet just walked in for a cup of tea and a natter, and read what I just wrote above. She agrees entirely with what I've said about the Baytril. So you have two opinions here for the price of one!
Hope this helps.


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Thanks to all who posted. I feel this is a problem that won't go away on it's own, and would rather halt breeding at this point and treat this group. However, a couple of questions come to mind. 

#1. I'm assuming that the entire loft should be givin the treatment. While this would be quite a large number, I can live with that. But, should treatment differ any for those who are infected, and showing symptoms, as opposed to those who do not have symptoms, but are likely carrying this disease? Or, with 100 + birds, is it recommended to treat those who are showing symptoms?

#2. At what age is baytril safe to use? We have all ages, including some squeekers just out of nests. In other words, these individuals are still in the development process. 

#3. What should be done with squeekers still in nesting boxes? I have a number of them who are about 1-3 weeks old. 

#4. I do have about 4 or 5 birds who have now mostly lost thier ability to fly. In all cases, thier wings drag. What are chances that these fellows will recover? 

Thanks again, Dave

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David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Dave,
If you go ahead and treat, you must treat all birds. Every single one with the same treatment. Those not showing any symptoms may just be carriers of the illness.
I have successfully treated squeakers over 4 weeks with Baytril and not seen a growth problem. I suspect it is a rare occurence.
Anything under 4 weeks, can you isolate then treat once they reach about 4 weeks of age? This may of course mean hand rearing some. They must be kept in strict isolation in another building as once you start treatment of your loft they mustn't come into contact by any means. A sensible precaution to take is to wear overalls and different shoes when dealing with the babies, then these can be slipped off and hands scrubbed afterwards before any contact is made with the loft birds.
You will also need to clear and disinfect the entire loft in all nooks and crannies on the first day of treatment. Sounds like a horrendous job, but the disease lurks everywhere on the surface just waiting to re-infect your birds. It is also advisable to worm the birds on their first day of treatment too. Nothing like having a clean sweep.
Dosage - Oral Baytril liquid. 0.1ml per 100gms body weight twice daily for 10 - 14 days. 
It is very hard work, I realise that, but cutting corners usually means more heartbreak. The only corner cutting I did was to use Baytril injectable and inject sub-cut. It is a different strength and only needs to be given once a day. I hope this advice helps, and your heart doesn't sink at the thought of the amount of work involved.


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

Well, we are exploring all options. With this many birds, that would indeed be a chore. Not impossible, but. . . As for breeding season, I'd have no trouble beginning to seperate pairs (just for now, I don't re-pair them up each year) It would, however, give me a chance to fix some pairs that have crossbred and things like that. I'm also wondering what this would roughly cost. I wish that wasn't a concern, but it has to be. So, still considering my options. I've tried many things before, and sometimes, it's tough not to throw in the towel. However, I have no real plans on doing that just yet. 

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David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft www.geocities.com/havensloft 

[This message has been edited by DaveD (edited May 14, 2002).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Dave:

Hello, again! Nice to hear from you, though I'm sorry about your pigeon-problems.

We've used Baytril (Cipro) on both Bernie & Cosmo--twice on Bernie. In both cases, it was a life saver!

Baytril is a broad spectrum, and as Helen describes, fairly harsh antibiotic. It is fairly hard on the bird's liver and the dosage, as suggested earlier, should be accurate.

We've always used the liquid form with a syringe, the dosage being based on the bird's weight.

I've also read that Baytril can cause feather damage if used during a molt.

Still, it is the "Silver Bullet" of antibiotics currently available at large.

The suggestion of probiotics given with a long course of antibiotics is particularly wise.

Bye the bye, we currently share our home with a painted turtle and a Russian Tortoise.
I believe this month's Discover magazine contains an article: 'Can Turtles Live Forever?'

--Ray


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi,
When Baytril is used, breeding should be postponed. I haven't the exact length of time for the prevention of breeding but I will find out and get back to you with it.


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