# Unknown Object



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Shi came over today to help me clean the aviary & AZ room & brought this with her for me to see.

It came from either Gimie or Dom
She will be along to fill you in on the particulars. I'm just posting the pictures for her. 

We're wondering if it *might be* an embryo that didn't develop properly. 

*Unknown Object, size in comparison to coins*









*Unknown Object, size in comparison to an egg
(The egg has nothing to do with the object. It was just used for comparison)*


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Here are two more views

*Unknown Object, semi close up*










*Unknown Object, close up*


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It's a dried up egg that finally worked itself out.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...looks that way to me also...

Unusual, but not unheard of...


Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> It's a dried up egg that finally worked itself out.


Shouldn't there be concern that a second egg was never laid?

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Shouldn't there be concern that a second egg was never laid?
> 
> Cindy




Good point Cindy...


I had been sort of brooding in the same thing...


Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Shouldn't there be concern that a second egg was never laid?
> 
> Cindy


I had one that expelled something similar last fall and she is just fine. It was really creepy, though.
I would watch them both carefully and take note of any behavior changes. If either hen starts to act ill or appears to be off, make an appointment with Dr. Funk.


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## floppy109909 (Apr 3, 2008)

correct thats what it is


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

MANY THANKS FOR POSTING, CINDY! Those pics turned out great!!

I, too, thought it was an undeveloped egg. Never saw a second one.

My main problem is that I don't know WHO expelled it!! I thought Gimie was the hen and Dom was the cock. However, I found the "egg" on the bed and usually the only one I see on the bed is Dom. He was actually ON the bed by this object when I saw it. I did not see who "laid" it though! It was dry and very hard when I found it.

There WAS a time when Gimie (and I'm sure about this) had poops with a tiny amount of blood. But it stopped and she hasn't done it since. She seems fine.

Dom, on the other hand, may have PMV. He will be fine for awhile and then start exhibiting PMV symptoms: turning in circles, putting his head under him, turning his head to one side. Sometimes when he flies, he will fly into the side of the cage, and therefore usually leads me a merry chase by running around on the floor. 

Today was the first time I saw him hesitate in flying out for exercise. But that's because he turned his head sideways! He would go back in the cage, walk around a few times and come back to the edge and try again, same thing...finally, after about 4 times, he finally flew out fine and landed but tipped forward onto his head! By the time exercise time was over (about 2 hours today), he seemed fine again.

I will watch and see what happens. I know Prednisone helped Cindy's Pij, and I may ask Dr. Burke about trying some on Dom. Pij was much worse than Dom, however.

Soooo, do I have 2 cocks or a cock and a hen and who is which??? Thought I knew, but just shows to go ya, never assume... *sigh* 

Shi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You could have 2 hens!
Please keep an eye out for any more sign of blood. Wouldn't hurt to have a fecal done on these two.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I don't think an egg would be fleshy, I remember Trees mentioning that the foetus wouldn't develop in an un-layed egg.

How old are Gimie and Dom? Because the object looks very much like the one that Nikku-Chan's youngster passed and that was identified by Dr Colin Walker as the Bursa of Fabricius This is the link

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=24753&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cynthia, Do you know where in the thread that is without going through the whole 15 pages? Just approximately would be great.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I don't think an egg would be fleshy, I remember Trees mentioning that the foetus wouldn't develop in an un-layed egg.
> 
> How old are Gimie and Dom? Because the object looks very much like the one that Nikku-Chan's youngster passed and that was identified by Dr Colin Walker as the Bursa of Fabricius This is the link
> 
> ...


Don't know their ages because they were from the Glendale "save." They WERE adults when I got them. 

Yes, that lump IS similar to what Nikku-Chan's pijie passed. 

Gimie seems fine now...IF she(?) was the one that passed it. 

Both have been to the Vet and were treated for worms once (with Panacur) and Coccidiosis (Albon) twice. With the Albon, I was told to put in the water for 3 days...wait 2...then 3 more days. When I saw the small amout of blood, I treated again with Albon, which was almost a month after the first time.

Gimie is energetic and eats and poops. Both bird's poops are loose at times, which I attribute to stress, but seem to be fine the rest of the time.

I have saved the lump. I still want to take in another poop sample to be checked and will have the lump looked at then.

Shi


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Shi

I'm not positive either that this is an egg but can't imagine what it could be unless it is accumulated hardened mucus of some kind.

We had to bring our ****** in about 4 days ago. She is the one we have to really watch because of her past problem with worms. She had lost some weight and just seemed listless. Anyhow, she is feeling perkier but two days ago, she passed something that looked very similar to your "object" though smaller and less solid - beige in color, shaped kinda like a kidney bean, looked like mucus does but more solid than mucus. We're just keeping an eye on her.

Sure hope this was "just one of those things" for whichever of your babies did this.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

When my bird expelled a similar thing, the inside of it was definitely egg material...dried up yoke. The outside did look fleshy. It looked like something other than from this world.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Charis said:


> Cynthia, Do you know where in the thread that is without going through the whole 15 pages? Just approximately would be great.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=255462&postcount=68


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Renee - I didn't realise that you could post a link to a post rather than a thread... and sorry about that Charis! As I was posting John reminded me that I only had half an hour to make it to my appointment with the vet and that I would have the rush hour to contend with. Otherwise I would have copied the photo and Dr Walker's comments in this thread. 

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Actually Dr Colin Walker didn't say it was the bursa of fabricius, what he actually said was:

* To me the material looks like a core of inflammatory material (ie the equivalant of dried bird pus) which has probably come away from the bursa of fabricius. This is an area of tonsil like tissue in the wall of the cloaca that shrivels up at puberty in pigeons. It is a common site of infection. In the abscence of testing affected birds are usually treated with an anticanker drug eg. 1/4 of a Flagyl tablet daily and an antibiotic eg. Baytril 4 drops once daily. Often however this material coming away is associated with the infection healing. 

With regards,
Dr. Colin Walker *

But if the bursa of fabricius shrivles up at puberty and your pigeons are mature, Shi, then that can't be it.

I also found a large lump of what just seemed like flesh in my aviary. It was too big to fit through the hardware cloth and for some bizarre reason I concluded it was a skinned mouse. Bizarre, because it had no bones in it. I still have no idea what it was, I quartered it and it had layesr, but it wasn't an egg.

BTW, before sending the photo to Dr Walker I had heard via Yong that he is a wonderful person to consult by e-mail.

These are photos of my own grizzly discovery, I didn't take a photo before quartering the lump. so the first photo is of the bits pushed together to their original position. Obviously I have no idea where the lump came from, there was no illness in the aviary after the discovery.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

****** has just passed another of these "things". This was a little larger, beige in color and surprisingly firm. It was about 1/2 inch long. Lewis cut into it and it had the consistency of cheese.

Really odd that we have some similar things going on......

We are already giving her Baytril but I'm starting her on Metronidazole in the morning, so, Cynthia, thank you for that information.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Thanks Renee - I didn't realise that you could post a link to a post rather than a thread... and sorry about that Charis! As I was posting John reminded me that I only had half an hour to make it to my appointment with the vet and that I would have the rush hour to contend with. Otherwise I would have copied the photo and Dr Walker's comments in this thread.
> 
> Cynthia


I didn't know it either for a LONG time!  If you find the post, then click on the number in the upper right hand corner, the post will open in another window with the link that you can just copy/paste.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I wish I would have save my blob so we could all compare.
This is really a creepy and fascinating thread.

Shi...could you cut your blob in half and take a picture so we can have a look at it that way?


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> *This is really a creepy and fascinating thread.*


There's been a few creepy and fascintating things going on lately. I wish they would stop!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Charis said:


> I wish I would have save my blob so we could all compare.
> This is really a creepy and fascinating thread.
> 
> *Shi...could you cut your blob in half and take a picture so we can have a look at it that way*?


WHAT??!! CUT THE BLOB IN HALF?!  But it's so neat the way it is! 

Only teasing...I was thinking of doing just that but will wait until I see Cindy again and do it then. That way it will be "fresh." AND, Cindy will be able to get a good picture.

BTW, the color of the picture is true. The outer yellow coating could be easily flaked off and underneath was reddish. 

Guess I am still walking to a different drummer. Stuff like this is quite fascinating to me. 

Still no sign of another one or anything close...blob watch contuing...

Shi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I wish I would have save my blob so we could all compare.
> This is really a creepy and fascinating thread.


So do I! I have been dipping in to Dr Wym Peters' book "Fit to win", and there appear to be a number of different "things" that hens pass, it would be so handy if we had photos to compare and use to help future members. Describing a lump doesn't have the same effect.



> ****** has just passed another of these "things".


Our Juvie passed a number of small waxy lumps a few years ago. They were cheesy inside. The vet that I consulted didn't know what they were, I found a reference in "Fit to Win" that as I recall suggested that they were the contents of abscesses. She has been infertile since.

I can't find the reference to the waxy lumps, but I found a lot of information that I consider interesting: It says that eggbinding occurs when an egg is retained in the distal oviduct and that _" if it is the first egg then spontaneous regression of the second developing ovum occurs "_

It also describes what happens when the yolk is retained in the upper section of reproductive tract_:"Excessive layers of albumin are laid down in concentric layers round the ovum but calcium is not deposited. Instead the whole mass becomes inspissated (dry and solid through loss of fluid) and firmly lodged....When the yolk is retained, the hen shows all the symptoms of egg binding or abdominal tumour...the inspissated mass almost fills the abdomen causing respiratory distress and the hen shows a rounded epiglottis and pendulous abdomen". _ That needs removal by surgery.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I had wanted to get a picture of the thing ****** passed last night but Lewis had already started cutting by the time I got back in the room. If she passes another I'll get a picture but I'd rather she didn't.....

****** has laid very few eggs, at the most, maybe three, during her seven years with us. She is extremely tame and has spent a lot of time with us in the house over the years. She is devoted to Lewis and he loves her dearly. I think because of her relationship with us, she early on got confused as to what she was - pigeon or human.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> I wish I would have save my blob so we could all compare.
> This is really a creepy and fascinating thread.
> 
> *Shi...could you cut your blob in half and take a picture so we can have a look at it that way?*


*OK, Shi cut the 'blob' in half as you requested, Charis. 
Don't ya just love the feather*. 








Cndy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> *OK, Shi cut the 'blob' in half as you requested, Charis.
> Don't ya just love the feather*.
> 
> 
> ...


ROFL...PMPL...


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Charis said:


> ROFL...PMPL...


What's PMPL???


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## NewPigie (Jun 15, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> What's PMPL???


Peeing my pants laughing?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

NewPigie said:


> Peeing my pants laughing?


WHAT?! Charis, for shame...you have NO idea how tramatic cutting the blob in half was! LUCKILY, that feather is still stuck to the two halves so they don't get separated! I'm keeping blobs and blobettes! 

STILL no sign of another...and, still don't know who "passed" it!

Shi


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've found that the best antibiotic for when hens get "female problems" and start passing that stuff is a Trimethoprim/Sulfa. Especially when they get _really_ sick.

Pidgey


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> start passing that stuff


What is that stuff? 

It did kinda look like a ball of beef jerky.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I've found that the best antibiotic for when hens get "female problems" and start passing that stuff is a Trimethoprim/Sulfa. Especially when they get _really_ sick.
> 
> Pidgey


Well, the thing is, Pidgey (no pun intended), Gimie and Dom seem to be doing OK. PLUS, I won't give meds until I know for sure who passed it and only if needed. They have already had Panacur and Albon.

Not only that, but I'm still not sure if Dom is really a hen AND ol' Gimie a "quiet" cock. However, I'm sticking to my original "he and she" until I know for sure.

BTW, Pidgey, I could send you some of the blob and also the last tumor that Goliath lost to check under your microscope if you are interesed. 

Hugs

Shi


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