# Limber neck/crooked neck in pigeons? Botulism?



## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm seeing a hen here that looks much like she may have 'limber neck'. I have seen it in chickens and know it comes from botulism. Can pigeons get this? I've been trying to research here and online but can't find much info. It can also be called 'crooked neck' or other things. Symptoms include weight loss, weakness, less active, neck held low or even on the ground, little to no eating or drinking, other signs of paralysis. I brought her inside and am trying to get fliud in her at least. We'll see what happens.  I'd hate to lose her.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It may likely be salmonella. The bird needs to be treated with appropriate antibiotic such as baytril or a generic, enroflaxyn, which is available at...
www.siegelpigeons.com 
If it is salmonella, it can be caused by rodents getting into the loft and soiling in the food and water. Rodents are a huge problem because they are attracted to the seed.

I don't know the history on the bird but another possibility is PMV which is viral and can take weeks to recover.
Whatever the illness may be, the bird needs supportive care from you to survive. That means keeping it inside where you can monitor symptoms and progress. You must keep the bird warm, hand feed and water if the bird is going to survive.

A bit more information would be helpful such as
if you have rodents in the loft,
how long you have had the bird
how old
where the bird came from
any other sick birds
do you suspect the bird has gotten into contaminated water?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Rebecca,

Pigeons can get botulism although it is rare.

Is the pigeon's head in the correct position when it is low to the ground? Or is it twisted so that the pigeon is staring at the sky (star gazing)? In the case of botulism it is paralysis that causes limber neck, in PMV it is neurological.

Is it pooping? If so, what are his poops like? Are they smelly? (Smelly poops point to salmonellosis).

As well as non-smelly projectile diarrhea, symptoms of botulism include flaccid paralysis of the legs, loss of control of the nictitaing membrane, shallow irregular heartbeat, depresed breating, low twmperature (36.5 - 37.5)

Charis mentioned Paramyxovirus, this would happen if the pigeon is unvaccinated and has been exposed to pigeons infected with the disaese. 

This link leads to a thread that describes the symptoms and also has a video embeded so you can compare the behaviour of your bird :

http://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/pigeon-and-dove-illnesses-injuries-their-symptoms-and-treatment-f11/pigeon-paramyxovirus-pmv-t151.htm

Cynthia


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## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

*still hanging in there*

she is the same or slightly better this morning. Her head does not twist; no stargazing. It's as though she can't hold it up. Also she often has her neck feathers puffed up. One eye seems to close involuntarily. The kids said yesterday that she seemed to have a droopy wing. It really is just about like the symptoms I've seen in our chickens with limber neck. Her poops are normal consistency but dark green. Don't seem to be especially smelly/foul. I have been giving her water with some epsom salts in it (same as we do for chickens) and I also put in it some garlic (to help keep down bacterias/virus since she's in low condition) and table salt and sugar to give her some salt and energy. I'm going to put a little feed in front of her and see if she'll eat. 

I've only had her for a month and a half now. In fact we got all our pigeons at that time - we're newbies to pigeons although I have had chickens for quite awhile. I don't think we have any rodents in the loft, although it was an old shed and I had to clean evidence of former rodent residents out before we put the pigeons in there. I used a shop vac to get as much as I could. The feed and grit look and smell good. But here's a clue I just figured out last night - we keep a scraps bucket in the kitchen to give the chickens now and then. If we dumped it and it had something gone bad in the bottom and then she picked at it, that could be how she was exposed to the botulism, couldn't it? I think we're going to do away with the scraps bucket. 

ANyway, I'll keep helping her as much as I can. I have nursed chickens through this kind of thing, but I have lost them too. So we'll see. Sadly she has a mate and they have a week old squab right now. What will happen there? Will the male be able to care for the squab alone?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You might have to help the dad bring up the squab.

Here are some instructions on treating a bird with botulism from Les Stocker's book "Practical Wildlife Care",it includes an anti toxin:

_Sick birds should be given intravenous or intraosseus fluids at a rate of 50ml per kg., half being given subcutaneusly. Shock should be treated with dexamethastone at 2-8 mg/kg

Gavaging with a broad spectrum antitoxin will start the process of washing the poison out of the body. A simple broad-spectrum antitoxin can be made up as follows (Greenwood 1979)

10g activated charcoal - an absorbent
5g kaolin - an adsorbent
5g tannic acid
5g light magnesium oxide - an antacid.
Water added to bring the total volume to 500 ml.

The antitoxin is gavaged at 2ml - 20ml, depending on the size of the bird.

Once the bird's fluid levels are satisfactory or at least after 24 hours, it can be started on a gavage regime of suitable food. Suitable foods are Poly Aid (Vetafarm Europe), Ensure (Abbott Laboratories) or Complan (Crookes health care)

Botulism toxin is very poisonous so do not expect a 100% success rate but 50% success can be achieved.._


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What are you feeding your Pigeons?
This question is critical...Did the couple lay 2 eggs and only 1 hatch?


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## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

our local farm supply place has pigeon feed - mixed grains with corn in it too. We keep it in a covered plastic tub.


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## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

50% success is about what I've experienced with chickens too. I never would have thought of giving a pigeon Ensure, but I do have some of that. Maybe I'll try that before giving her feed. As for the other - tannic acid is in tea, magnesium oxide is in antacid - I might be able to put something like that together. Thank you for the information.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please answer my question in post 6.


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## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

sorry I missed the second part. They did lay two eggs, but one egg got punctured about a week before the hatch date. It looked like one of the parents put a toe into it, which could have happened because the kids kept lifting them off to see the eggs and then putting them back down. We could tell the chick was alive in there, but it soon died so we pitched the egg. Can you tell me why this would make a difference?


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## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

hey, Charis, since I saw you post on this in another thread - does the grit I have provide enough calcium by itself? It's Kaytee brand red grit. I haven't been giving them oyster shell because I thought the grit provided the calcium.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The scrap bin could be the source, birds can also get it by drinking water from stagnant pools where there is decaying animal and vegetable matter. A good reason for putting out fresh water for the wild birds specially in summer.

This is a good article about botulism its causes and symptoms. It mentions that the feather follicles also become paralysed so the feathers are easy to pluck.

http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/cps/rde/dpi/hs.xsl/27_2734_ENA_HTML.htm


Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

RebeccaMP said:


> sorry I missed the second part. They did lay two eggs, but one egg got punctured about a week before the hatch date. It looked like one of the parents put a toe into it, which could have happened because the kids kept lifting them off to see the eggs and then putting them back down. We could tell the chick was alive in there, but it soon died so we pitched the egg. Can you tell me why this would make a difference?


Often with salmonella or e-coli, chicks will die in the shell.
You must keep your children from eggs in the future. Pigeon parents know when to turn the eggs during the process of incubation and meesing with the eggs and throw the whole process off. I know it's exciting and hard to resist, even for an adult but if you explain to them I know it will make sense.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here is a helpful link.

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php


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## RebeccaMP (Jun 17, 2009)

ah! yes, it's so hard for them to resist but I thik they'll understand if I explain. Thanks for the info, that makes a lot of sense. 

She actually is looking a little better right now. I have her in the sleeve of a shirt in a shoebox to keep her loosely confined and so I can keep an eye on her and fluids to her, but she wants to get up somewhat and is holding her head up now. Both eyes fully open and brightly watching us. It's still uncertain but at least she is not worse. 
Thank you all for the help and advice, ideas, etc.


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