# Help needed with sulpha dosage



## Ronni

Hi everybody. I'm from Starling Talk, and hoping to pick the PT experts' brains. One of our members in Australia needs to dose her 8 starlings and 1 blackbird for coccidia. Her vet has supplied 33% Sulphadimidine, but told her he could only guess at the dosage. His instructions were to put it in their drinking water, 4 ml/200ml, and change daily for 5 days. This does not seem an effective way of medicating birds that bathe in their drinking water, drink from their bath water, and eat mostly wet food. The birds are all asymptomatic, (the coccidia were a surprise finding on a fecal test) so it appears there's time to try and find out the correct dose for each bird.

Terry discovered that Sulphadimidine is a brand name for sulphamethazine, for which the Yale formulary gives a dosage for birds (chickens) of 128-187 mg/kg BW sid for 2 days, then ½ dose for 4 days. However, we don't know what the concentration is of 33% Sulphadimidine.  

If anyone is familiar with Sulphadimidine, can you advise us of the concentration of the 33% solution, and recommended dosage for passerines? 

Many thanks for any help.
Ronni


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## TAWhatley

Hi Ronni,

Thanks for posting here .. I'm still trying to research this .. hopefully one of our P-T med wizards will be along shortly.

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Is this what you are talking about:

http://74.6.146.244/search/cache?ei...+sulphadimidine&d=WdXK4ernOpoN&icp=1&.intl=us

fp


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## TAWhatley

WHOA! Thanks, so much FP Really, really, really good find .. exactly what we needed .. Ronni .. are you getting this?

Terry


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## Ronni

Yup......that's the stuff. Have you used it? do you know what the concentration is?

Ok, it says _"Initial dose: All species 0.2 gramme per kilogram body-weight. (-0.6 ml of the solution)."_
Does that mean that 0.2 g = 0.6 ml? ....so for a 100 gram starling, the dose would be 0.06 ml? Am I reading that right?


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## Pidgey

The "w/v" means "weight per volume" or how many many grams of pure medicine there is per 100 cc's of volume.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Okie dokie .. we need to find an oral dose PER BIRD that will do the job and do no harm. I found a couple of pigeon sites that stated 30 mg of the drug PO daily. ASSuming that 33% contains 33 mg per ml (AND I DON'T KNOW THAT), then 1 cc per PIGEON SIZED BIRD per day would be the dose. For a juvenile starling, then I would GUESS 1/4 - 1/3 cc per day per bird BUT ALSO DON"T KNOW THIS.

More help needed, Pigeon-Talk folks.

Terry


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## Pidgey

So, that would roughly equate to 1.33 grams of medicine in 200 milliliters of water or ~1,333 milligrams (depending on the specific gravity of the solution) per 200 milliliters of water, or 6.65 milligrams of medicine per milliliter of water.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Out of the Clinical Avian Medicine, the reference for Passerines is 0.15 g/L in their drinking water.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Hi Pidgey.....we really can't use the drinking water.


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## TAWhatley

Pidgey and all,

The lady in Australia has this 33% "stuff" and has the instructions for putting it in the drinking water. Unfortunately, the birds are juveniles and still being hand fed .. they don't drink water on their own and only take food from their caretaker. We have to find the right dose per bird for this med so it can be given individually.

Terry


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## Pidgey

Oh, I got that part--it's a protracted study. I was just trying to extrapolate by finding a weight for the bird and the typical water consumption by weight percentage basis.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

What do these birds weigh?

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Terry, I think they're all flying and able to eat on their own - I think the rat pack (youngest) have gone through their juvey molts. They'd all be adult weight now, I think. I'll double check that with Susan.


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## TAWhatley

Ronni,

One of the things I found was 30 grams of the drug, once per day, PO (orally) for a pigeon. I would reduce this to 10 grams (about a third of a cc ASSUMING I am guessing right that 1 cc/ml contains 33 mg of the drug) for a starling and give each one about 1/3 cc of the liquid. Sadly, we're either gonna kill 'em or cure 'em.

Feel free to chime in here folks.

Terry


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## Ronni

Best guess on weights......they'd all be between 75 and 90 grams.


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## Pidgey

When I have dosed Amprolium (Corid) for birds I was hand-feeding, I always just made up the water as per normal and used it to make the formula.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I usually don't try to treat asymptomatic birds. Don't you see this kind of thing a lot with starlings?

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Terry, I'm trying to get a handle on what Pidgey said about "w/v". If there's 33 grams in 100 cc, then doesn't that work out to 330 mg/cc?


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## TAWhatley

Weight guess for juvenile starling .. about 100+ grams .. purely a GUESS .. I have some youngsters here and just went and weighed them .. (they were NOT amused) .. about 80-120 grams.

Terry


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## Ronni

Pidgey, this is the first I've seen a report of it, but it could be that Jackie has come across it. We've had one sparrow on ST that was treated for coccidia some time ago....died unfortunately.


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## Ronni

I guesstimated a little lower, Terry, because Susan's always joking about how small her starlings are compared to ours.


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## Pidgey

Ronni said:


> Terry, I'm trying to get a handle on what Pidgey said about "w/v". If there's 33 grams in 100 cc, then doesn't that work out to 330 mg/cc?


That's correct. That's 33,000 milligrams per the 100,000 milligrams of a 100 cc solution assuming a specific gravity of 1.0.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Can you figure out how much of the medicated water to give in the same way
that one computes the average intake of water for an adult starling?

fp


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## Ronni

It sure would make it easier if they were still hand feeding.


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## Ronni

FP, this may sound crazy, but having starlings myself, I can't begin to imagine how anyone could even guess at their daily intake of water.


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## Pidgey

Well, there's no guidance in the Passerines section of AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION. For pigeons, it gives an intake amount of 5 to 8 percent of their weight per day in water. Working on checking comparable amounts of water intake for other birds.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Pidgey said:


> That's correct. That's 33,000 milligrams per the 100,000 milligrams of a 100 cc solution assuming a specific gravity of 1.0.
> 
> Pidgey



Yep .. sorry. Time for me to check out of here soon. Brain death does nobody any good.

Terry


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## TAWhatley

So ASSUMING everybody is now on track with how much med in a cc .. then about 0.33 cc per bird per day .. right all ?? I was only off by about 100 X  

Terry


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## Pidgey

Okay, found something:

"The basal metabolic rate (BMR) of passerine birds is
generally about 65% greater than that of non-passerines,
and their body temperature is about two degrees
Centigrade higher (around 42°C). While some
desert passerines such as the Zebra Finch have been
known to survive months without drinking water,
most small passerine birds drink from 250 to 300
ml/kg body weight of water each day and may eat up
to 30% of their body weight daily. These figures are
higher than those for most non-passerines, which
tend to be larger birds."

AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION p. 1173

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Well, I'm not finding it in Plumb's nor in a couple of other books so the
link was the most info I got and Pidgey has you covered on Avian Medicine:
Principles and Applications....it's also pumpkin time for me as well.
Good luck with your quest.

fp


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## Pidgey

That suggests that most passerines drink a quarter of their weight per day in water.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Here's an interesting chart I came across that allows calculation of various med dosages by k/cal. For a 100 gram starling, it seems to indicate the dose of sulphadimidine would be 1.61 mg per day, if I'm using it right.
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/1999/dorrestein/index.php


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## Ronni

This becomes even more confusing when I look at the recommended dosage for sulphamethazine....works out to ~18.7 mg/day for a 100 g starling.
Big difference.


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## TAWhatley

Ronni said:


> Here's an interesting chart I came across that allows calculation of various med dosages by k/cal. For a 100 gram starling, it seems to indicate the dose of sulphadimidine would be 1.61 mg per day, if I'm using it right.
> http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/1999/dorrestein/index.php


Very nice find, Ronni! We need to entice you here more often  

Ok all .. I'm way beyond brain dead here now and going to leave .. many thanks to all the P-T members helping here .. it's greatly appreciated. I just CANNOT go any longer today.

Terry


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## Pidgey

Well, that's the kind of thing I'd expect, actually, based on some of the dosages listed in terms of mg/kg, PO. Anyhow, if you were to use 4 milliliters of medicine per 200 milliliters of water, it'd work out to 1,333 milligrams per 200 milliliters of drink (I guess) which if a 90 gram bird drinks 25% of its weight in water per day would mean that it'd get 22.5 milliliters of that medicated water at 6.665 milligrams per milliliter or 150 milligrams per day of medicine.

The cure is worse than the disease.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Thanks alot, FP......your input is really appreciated.  

I'm beginning to think that Susan may have to force these birds to go dry for 5days.......no baths, and no other water available at all except the medicated water. She would have to find a way to keep them from trying to bathe in their drinking water. NOt a happy week.....she'd have pretty depressed starlings I think.

Considering that practically 100 % of their diet is the mushy dog food recipe, should that be made up using the medicated water too? What's the protocol?


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## TAWhatley

Ronni said:


> This becomes even more confusing when I look at the recommended dosage for sulphamethazine....works out to ~18.7 mg/day for a 100 g starling.
> Big difference.


The pigeon dose on a couple of sites is 30 mg per dose .. I'd go with half that for Susan's starlings and be done with it .. if she decides to do the water based treatment, then she's got her vet's instructions. 

Ok .. nite, nite all!

Terry


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## Pidgey

Well, lemme' check another reference...


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## Pidgey

The difficulties lay in the fact that they often publish dosages based on a formulation rather than as an absolute of the drug. They think they're making it easier for doctors and vets. If they'd ALWAYS think to post the specifics of the formulation that they're publishing, it wouldn't be so bad but...


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## Ronni

Nighty night, Terry......and thanks a million, as always.  

Pidgey, what is the average weight for a pigeon?

We do have another option.......one of our members in the US has a supply of Baycox 2.5, and is willing to ship some to Susan. We know the PO dose for a sparrow, so can extrapolate the correct dose for starlings. It might be safer, what do you think?


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## Pidgey

Anyhow, the two that I'd use as a guideline out of what's published in CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE is 30 IM/SC and 50 milligrams PO of pure medicine per kilogram of bird, (avian--non-species specific). That would indicate a daily dose for a 90 gram bird of 4.5 milligrams.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, my normal tack is to try comparing several dosage strategies, if possible. When you're treating coccidiosis, you're usually wishing that the medication would remain mostly in the lumen and diffuse into the affected epithelium without going widely systemic. BUT, different drugs and formulations can be maddeningly unpredictable in different species sometimes. I'd err low, that's for sure.

In answer to your query, though, an average feral weighs about 350 to 400 grams.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Hmm ok.......a starling weighs about 1/4 of that

Calculating from the page that FP put up, the dose for each bird of the 33% would be 20 mg, which would be 0.06 cc..........

followed by "maintenance dose" of half that.....?

Doesn't give the dosing regime though.......5 days of the initial dose?


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## Pidgey

Going best guess out of the listing for passerines in CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE, the dosage is 0.15 g/L or 150 milligrams per liter of water, assuming that the 0.15 grams is at 100% medicine. Extrapolating on that basis, you'd get 150 milligrams per 1000 milliliters of water so 22.5 milliliters consumption (25% of 90 grams as a water intake weight basis) would work out like this:

22.5/1000*150=3.375 milligrams daily dose

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Which (if I'm not mistaken--would have to go back and read it again) would be in line with the 1/100th dose of the one that Terry originally came up with.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

OK....there we have it. I'm inclined to trust Harrison more than an unknown website, I think 

I'll go with that.....3.375 mg works out to approx 0.01 cc per bird per day for 5 days.


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## Pidgey

Life's fun, ain't it?

Pidgey


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## Ronni

yes......I'd have to go back and read again too, lol. In another two hours I'm official 48 hours without sleep.......brain seriously fuzzing, lol.


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## Ronni

Pidgey, I don't know how to thank you for your help and your patience. I've had alot of pleasure watching some of the threads here, and I've been in awe of the expertise on this board.


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## Ronni

Never thought I'd have occasion to seek help here, but I'm very grateful, and I know Susan will be too. Her birds are her life. She's disabled, and isolated in the backwoods of Tasmania......


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## Pidgey

Ronni said:


> OK....there we have it. I'm inclined to trust Harrison more than an unknown website, I think
> 
> I'll go with that.....3.375 mg works out to approx 0.01 cc per bird per day for 5 days.


Yep, 10 microliters of 33%. Are they set to meter that out? The smallest normal syringes that I've got are 3/10ths of a cc. The smallest single mark is 10 microliters. I've got some really wicked syringes for metering stuff for a gas chromatograph that go down to 0.1 microliters--it's like pushing a hair through a straw the size of a horsehair.

They might want to dilute it 10-to-1 and then give a larger dose.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Uhh, you're welcome, Your Sleepiness. We just live for this kind of thing here, you know.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

That's pretty tiny.....but it can be a blessing when you're trying to medicate a starling, hehehe. A dose that small can be put into a little piece of cherry or a tiny "forbidden" treat. Very helpful


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## Ronni

If I'm not mistaken, one drop from standard eyedropper is approx 0.01 cc, isn't it?


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## Pidgey

Oh, don't ever assume that. The best way to do it is to count out the drops that it takes to empty out (1) full milliliter OF the fluid that you're trying to meter AT the angle that you're going to use to do the job AS steady as you can be and AT the speed of delivery that you're going to use.

Then, when you've come up with a fairly consistent number of drops per milliliter, you simply divide 1,000 by that number. For instance, if you get 25 drops per milliliter, you divide the 1,000 by the 25 and you'd get 40 microliters per drop. Assuming a specific gravity of 1.0, that would mean 40 milligrams per drop.

Pidgey


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## Ronni

Eminently sensible........I'll tell them to do some testing with whatever dropper they're going to use. Sorry, head's getting way too swimmy to be logical.

Thanks again Pidgey, so very much!! I'm sure you had better things to do on a Friday night, but I know Susan will be elated to have answers.

I'm draggin' my old self off to bed now.

Have a wonderful weekend!

Hugs
Ronni


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## Pidgey

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Pitchee...


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## Pidgey

Ronni said:


> Here's an interesting chart I came across that allows calculation of various med dosages by k/cal. For a 100 gram starling, it seems to indicate the dose of sulphadimidine would be 1.61 mg per day, if I'm using it right.
> http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/1999/dorrestein/index.php


Going by that chart at the bottom, it would mean that you'd use 0.07 milligrams of pure medicine per Kcal (a Kcal by the way is 1000 Physics calories [small "c"] and is equivalent to one food Calorie [Bic "C"]) with a multiplier of 23 for a passerine in the 100 gram range for a total of the 1.61 milligrams per day dose that you'd come up with which is half the the 3.375 that we'd done the other way based on the 150 milligrams per liter at a consumption of 250 milliliters of water per kilogram of bird. That would indicate that whoever put the chart together was banking on the passerines only guzzling half that amount of water per day. Sometimes, it's down to the climate and how much the bird's likely to drink in the season that the person making the chart was using to model from and it can easily wander 2-to-1 from the hottest and driest to the coldest and wettest.

Dosing's an art.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Thanks Pidgey and FP for all the help with this .. turned out to be quite an adventure ..

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Your welcome, Terry. I was wondering, is this a relatively new medication?
Seems not to be lots of information available on it.

fp


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## TAWhatley

feralpigeon said:


> Your welcome, Terry. I was wondering, is this a relatively new medication?
> Seems not to be lots of information available on it.
> 
> fp


I don't think it is new. Apparently it is widely used in Australia for treating coccidiosis in livestock. I came across lots of references to the drug related to pigs and cows.

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom

Okay, folks, that concludes this week's story problem  

I certainly hope nobody lost a decimal place or a pico, nano, milli, or micro in all that.  

If I can lay my hands on some really small pipets or syringes would they be useful to someone here? (occasionally we surplus things from the lab and I can ask around).


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## feralpigeon

flitsnowzoom said:


> ....
> 
> If I can lay my hands on some really small pipets or syringes would they be useful to someone here? (occasionally we surplus things from the lab and I can ask around).


Yes, that would be great and I didn't know that you worked in a lab, very 
impressive. Would you also happen to have any good links for similar
items?

fp


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## Ronni

FP, I did discover that Sulphadimidine is manufactured by Sigma Chemical Inc. in England, but there was also reference to Sigma US, which could be a branch for American distribution (?)

Flitz, now that my brain cells have had some sleep, I'm going over everything again carefully to double check decimals.  

If you don't have takers for the small pipettes and syringes, I would be very glad to have a few.


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## feralpigeon

Some more information on Sulphadimidine:

http://74.6.146.244/search/cache?ei...+sulphadimidine&d=JpZqzurnOwye&icp=1&.intl=us

fp


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## Ronni

I just want to say I'm very grateful to everyone for jumping in to help me with this. This board is really amazing, and the level of expertise and committment of the people on it is humbling and inspiring.

On behalf of 9 little birds in Tasmania, and their terrified "Mom", THANK YOU!

Hugs
Ronni


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## flitsnowzoom

Yup, the local fire department would rather not come to our building if it ever caught fire -- an interesting mix of goodies we have in there  

I'll go searching next week. We used to toss out pipets (these are adjustable pipets that accept disposable tips) that had lost their ability to deliver water/reagents within a certain tolerance and couldn't be repaired. The pipets are expensive but the tips are inexpensive. I'm sure for our purposes here, they'd be well within tolerances. We also use calibrated but not adjustable syringes so I'll go on a treasure hunt and see if I can find anything that is unused and excess. Can't promise anything but I'll see what I can find and report back.

One of the biggest supply houses in the world is VWR. You can type in VWR on google and get several different links. They sell to the public, though some of the chemicals are restricted. Here is their main link www.vwr.com


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## pdpbison

If the Starlings will eat pre-wetted food offered them, by allowing it to be put into their Beak, or by taking it from one's fingers...

One could set up a row of small select food bites, each having the correct daily dose of the medicine-powder or liquid, and merely feed these to them, one to each Bird...each day of the regimen.


But this might be awkward, I dunno...


Water-wise, partially covered Water Bowls might allow them to wet their Food, and drink the more or less right amount each day of a medicated Water, while not bathing in it also...but bathing in it likely will do no harm or make any difference.


In theory, the Concentrations of Medicines in drinking Water need to take into account the Season or ambient humidity and also the diet of the Bird, and whether their foods contain much Water intrinsically, for the drinking Water dose - or how much they drink per day - to be approximately right.


Wild or feral Chickens of course eat Bugs and Greens and green as well as seasoned Seeds, and get a considerable amount of Water in their natural diet...while domestic Chickens drink more Water for want of fresh Greens and Bugs and green Seeds...

Raptors get their Water largely from eating prey which contain Water, and do not drink much...


Pigeons get their Water just ebout entirely from drinking, since there is very little to almost no water in their foods.


etc...


Starlings, as omnivores, if having a natural Diet, would not drink much, getting their Water mostly from Bugs and Fruits and some Greens...


Starlings in captivity then, as any other Bird, will drink according to the overall ambient humidity and excercise expence, and dietary intake of water from other sources.


So, if it was me, if they would take food bites from my fingers, I would try and see to it each one got their dose in a food bite, and not by drinking...but I know this might be too awkward, and I do not know how forgiving the Medicine is dose-wise up or down...so...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Ronni

Phil, thanks so much, I also think that's going to be the best way. In fact, I've got Susan thinking on what normally-forbidden treats might be most useful in getting the meds into each bird, provided the taste isn't so bad that they fling it. In a pinch, between Susan and her husband, they may be able to force feed a tiny dollop of treated food to each bird if it comes down to that. The individual dose is very tiny - just 0.01 cc - so she'll have to either dilute the meds to a measurable amount, or see if she can work out a "per drop" measurement for a glass eyedropper if she has one. I'm waiting to hear back from her now on what she has that could be used for measuring. The wonderful thing is that we now know the correct dose per bird! YAY  

These birds are fed a dog-food based wet mush, so they don't drink alot. They do bathe alot, and of course poop in their bath bowls and in their drinking water, so for the 5 days of treatment Susan and David will both be scampering around changing bath water and drinking water non stop. They luckily have a high-pressure steamer/sprayer, so all the cages will be thoroughly scrubbed outdoors with 10% ammonia and then sprayed. Perches and toys will be thrown out, and the room scoured completely with ammonia.


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## feralpigeon

If they are getting a wet mushy dog food anyway, why not get puppy
kibble and soak the pieces w/the medicated water then hand feed that?
Is that even possible?

fp


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## Ronni

Possible, I guess, if they would eat it - but there's the rub. I just heard back from Susan that her birds are crazy about raisins, but she rarely lets them have any. I've used raisins successfully myself to get antibiotics into a young bird - a teeny amount of liquid can be injected into a raisin, so I think that may be the best thing to try first. As long as the meds don't ooze out, it should work great. Now we just need to perfect a measuring process so we can keep the amount tiny yet be accurate.


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## feralpigeon

Ronni said:


> ...... I've used raisins successfully myself to get antibiotics into a young bird - a teeny amount of liquid can be injected into a raisin, so I think that may be the best thing to try first. As long as the meds don't ooze out, it should work great. Now we just need to perfect a measuring process so we can keep the amount tiny yet be accurate.


Well, that is very 'trick' if you ask me! Anyway, if you measure out the medicated water into something per bird them just fill up the raisins until
that portion is gone....I take it you are worried about the amount that stays
in the container walls?

BTW, does this person not crop medicate?

fp


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## Ronni

I'm more worried about the difficulty of eyeballing the plunger going a single 0.01 gradation. It might be easier, I'm thinking, to dilute the medication 50/50 and use a 0.02 measurement. I know from experience that more than that amount won't go into a raisin without oozing out.

Starlings don't have crops, so that's not an option. Squirting liquid into a starling's throat poses the risk of aspirating them unless it's done properly. I know Susan would shrink at trying that.


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## feralpigeon

I see Roni, major plumbing differences. I know you'll figure the rest out w/grace.

fp


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## Ronni

Thanks very much, Phil, I sure hope so. Wish us luck!


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## feralpigeon

OK, I'll be Phil for a day.... 

fp


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## Ronni

OMIGOSH, I'm sooo sorry.  

Phil posted above, and I didn't even notice the change in poster, FP. I think I need a few more nights of catch-up sleep. <sigh>


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## feralpigeon

Not to worry  

fp


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## theAussie

G'day gang

This is Susan from Starling Talk - the one from the backwoods of Tasmania Australia.  I wanted to try and express my appreciation to you all, for the work that went into working out the dose for my starlings and blackbird. I nearly went insane measuring the amount but practice made perfect and yesterday was the first day of dosing the birds, and we are still all here!  Oh boy what a job though. Just wanted to update you that we have begun on the job here of trying to remove the Coccidia from 7 starlings and a European Blackbird. 

This is one very very grateful Aussie - I will let you know how it goes. Many many thanks to Ronni, Terry and to all on this thread. You truly are a great bunch. 
cheers from the forests of the top left part of Tasmania OZ 

Susan Macauley - Tasmania Australia


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## TAWhatley

Hi Susan .. welcome to Pigeon-Talk again .. we love you here and all your birds and creatures .. post some of the other ones in our Other Forum .. folks here will go WILD!

Love Ya, Girl! 

Our members here who helped the most helped because they cared and knew that your situation was an emergency. It's not always an emergency, so perhaps you could enjoy being here once in a while .. we all got way different birds and critters than you do  You know you are very welcome here.

Terry


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## Pidgey

You're welcome, for my part. Anything for an Aussie, I just love y'all's accent.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Your very welcome, the whole world loves a Tasmanian Devil  ...

fp


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## theAussie

*the results are in*

G'day again gang
*
WELL - it's results time. * I gotta tell you that the dosing of the birds for the 5 days was tough stuff. We had to also transport each cage in the boot of our car down to the next property (my Mums home half a mile away) and we made 10 trips up and back, and used her water supply (which is higher than ours) and each cage was scrubbed with ammonia and heat sprayed, each cage took about an hour and 10 minutes of scrubbing and cleaning on day 4. I nearly went nuts hand dosing birds. I did not think the result was going to be good.

The reason this occured is that a fecal test for worms showed a surprise of Coccidia in one of my birds from the ratpack cage (4 siblings saved by seconds in my Mums tool shed from being eaten by a HUGE black swamp rat - the ratpack are now 6 months old and boy do they talk).

Through the whole thing, the birds were healthy, happy, talking, playing and very energetic. I did observe dark green poops 6-7 hours after every dose though. 

We did everything by the book and today, I waited by the phone chewing my nails - waiting on 5 fecal results.

*we killed it 4 out of 5 times. * And the only one that did show it, was a very very small amount, so hard to see, the Vet had to look a while. 

The vet was pretty awed as I included a page telling him how we dosed by mouth. 

So the only cage, 1 out of 5 that is still showing Coccidia is such a small amount, the head Vet suggested, waiting 10 days and redosing just that cage of two one more time. He didn't think a follow up fecal was even needed

THIS WAS A BETTER RESULT THAN I HOPED FOR AND IT IS ALL DUE TO YOU.

Please (I insist) everyone who took part in this thread, PM me for I wish to show my appreciation in the way of a very small token/gift. I am an Aussie kids Author and you are all going to receive a copy of my latest kids book signed with my thanks. You can see the book here www.greenfrogregatta.com - please PM me with your postal addy and do not be shy. I have already sent one on to Ronni and Terry. 

I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH
love and light
Susan Macauley in Tasmania xxxx


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## TAWhatley

Whoo Hoo! So, all is well with your birds? It appears so. Susan, you and David just busted your tushies on this and did a terrific job. I just tried to get on Starling Talk and as per usual it just sits and sits and sits. I'm so glad you posted here so I got the good news. I can't wait to receive my book! 

Please do feel welcome here and keep us posted on all the "kids".

I got two new starlings today but haven't been able to get on S-T to post about them. One is an almost grown youngster that was cat caught .. the danged cat actually managed to eat one wing down to the bone. This one will be a tough case. The other is much younger but still a big, big baby .. holy cow .. this one is eating me out of house and home .. I've NEVER had a baby or young starling that could consume the amounts that this one does. 

OK .. nuff about mine ..

Thanks so much for posting here, Susan. 

Terry


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## theAussie

Oh so glad you saw this Terry - ST is 'slower than a wet week' just now and I too cannot get in to tell the news. I tried to send an email to you through ST - but no luck

*Oh that big eater sounds like Bodhi from the ratpack.* NEVER seen a starling that could take 16 mouthfuls in one feeding. I mean, I was seriously wondering if it was missing the bit in its brain that told it, 'you cannot fit more in' - but 'Bodhi' was the injured one of the ratpack of 4, one leg straight out, couldn't balance, sit or stand and had to be propped up. She healed completely in 3 weeks. You cannot tell now she began with no use of her leg.

SO FINAL LINE ON MY GANG IS 

All of them would have had the Coccidia we believe through interaction. The ratpack (the cage with the most birdies) in it - 4 of them... is where the Coccidia showed in very high amounts. That cage is now CLEAN of Coccidia- no Coccidia or worms at all - no worms in any of our 9 birds. The other cages all tested negative too *except for one cage that holds Ted and Emmy*. Emmy is 6 months old and Ted is one and a half. But the amount showing was a minute amount, the vet had to really 'search to find a couple of the parasite'. I believe I know why. It's Ted. She is a tiny bird but she would NOT be dosed and brought up everything we put down her, sometimes 3 times and I had to keep an eye as she would errp up things later (minutes later) so I believe she got a little less dosage. I think she almost got enough, but perhaps for 2 of the 5 days, did not get the right amount. 

But this is a fantastic result to me. To know we have only a very small amount showing in just one cage out of 5 and will redose that cage only in 10 days time.

And as mentioned, the head Vet who is a very compassionate, loving, empathetic man, was VERY impressed and was truly interested in how you guys got it down to the right dose for the starlings - yes this man knows I have starlings and though this is a farming community, he put a pic of Jack our first starling in his waiting room and I said "but the farmers???" and he said "I will tell them it is a talking speckled Mynah bird". 

I wish the members here could see the thread and the pics of the 'operation bird poo' from Starling Talk - to get an idea of what we went through for 5 days, I am sure it would be amusing - pics of cages being transported and pics of me practicing making a droplet of 1/100th of a CC. Though perhaps some of the members here are also members of ST?

Good luck with your new arrivals Terry and again, thank you. I will always be so appreciative and I bet Ronni will be just over the moon at this news. Oh and yes, the vet also agreed the wild birds do carry it indeed. *I truly think mine came to me with it in them*, they all came from this very road, all born and rescued within 500 metres of each other and would all be inter-related and belong to the one big wild flock here. Not sure if the members here are aware that we have knocked 4 holes in our walls now to rescue starlings. 

*Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - I cannot believe it is over and I am so happy.* So, it can indeed be done! When you have the experts on hand to advise! I had read that this parasite resists freezing and in even the most sterile conditions, in labs etc, it is near impossible to shift. Well I beg to differ  Thank you to all again. 

love and light
Susan Macauley - Tasmania Australia xxxx


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## pdpbison

Hi Susan,



So very happy to read how well this has gone...!


Yippeee!



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## theAussie

Terry suggested I post a little about the wildlife and flora and fauna here in Tasmania Australia so here is a slideshow, and you will get to see some of the birds that this thread helped You will see the birds that were dosed for Coccida! I guess this brings the message home and how much I appreciated your help for this my flock of birds. They are well because of you. 

here
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/trowuttatwo/?action=view&current=tassietour.flv
I will go and explore the 'other' part of the forum and see if I can put it up so perhaps members of the board who are interested can view it too???

love and light
thank you all again 
Susan xxxx


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## TAWhatley

Marvelous slideshow Susan and David! Thank you for sharing. I always get a chuckle when I think of all the holes you've knocked in your walls to rescue birds, and it always makes me think of an old song done by the Statler Brothers called "Countin' Flowers On The Wall" .. in your case it would be "Countin' Holes In The Wall"!
 http://www.last.fm/music/The+Statler+Brothers/_/Flowers+on+the+Wall (that's the original version .. also redone not too long ago by Eric Heatherly .. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1_v6nWyWJE )

Terry


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## theAussie

I'll be sure to go listen to that - thanks Terry

For us, we tend to sing the Pink Floyd "Another Brick in the Wall" - but we sing it as "Another hole in the wall" - but you see, this house will need complete restoration in 4 years, when we have paid it off, so ......so what if there are some holes, I just put a painting over the hole, or stick a bunch of silk flowers in it LOL   They will be fixed in due time, but you know, those holes have saved over a dozen birds, so thank goodness they are only taped up. We do tape them up WELL though, cos otherwise rats and mice would be popping out onto our lap while we are in the bathroom - the holes that rescued Jack are just by the toilet paper ROTF - I would not like a rat to come down the wall (aka the Chute) while I was ...........ummm..........well using the bathroom


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## TAWhatley

Heck .. just leave the holes for another season .. easier to get the next bunch out without more home "deconstruction" .. 

Terry


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## theAussie

Don't Worry Terry - each of those 4 holes can be opened in ...._oh I would say 10 seconds tops if we need access_ - Jacks holes were made 3 years ago and have rescued about 7 others I think..... You just have to get under the top layer of the really wide tape and rip off the plastic, and we have reused holes now for 3 years - we just cannot FIX THEM UP FOR GOOD. And when the walls are replaced, *I want cat flaps put in with locks on them so I still have access*   Until we get a completely new roof - just in case. 
They don't call us the _"Aussie home bashers for the saving of starlings in OZ'_ for nothing, we can get into or make a hole soooooooooo quickly. It's tag team effort, throwing torches to each other, and handing hammers and a punch holer (we don't even speak, we are listening hard for the next scrabble to pin point the bird). I swear we have it down to an art and we must be quick. if the bird is in a grab zone and we miss it and they fall down another section, you end up with 2 holes (and that is exactly what happened getting Jack the first one out) - first hole too high. Can you imagine our heartache - it took Jack 2.5 days to fall low enough to be 'gettable'. When we finally got him I was crying. We had listened to him chirping in the wall and parents and siblings were long gone. He ate for us within a few minutes! Our first ever starling  Oh he yelled at us first though.


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## theAussie

I just wanted to report in that I can finally say that thanks to your wonderful help and advice, I finally, today, *received the ALL CLEAR on all of my birds.* I can't tell you what a relief it is to finally know that we kicked that Coccidia well and truly. 8 birds were dosed, a total of 4 cages scrubbed and sprayed and after the first re-check, we had killled the Coccidia in 3 out of 4 cages first up. I had to re-dose one of the cages where a small amount was showing as still being present. I did the redose but only managed 4 days in a row instead of 5 as I fell so ill suddenly (the vet said not to bother with a follow up, but I wouldn't rest till I knew it was in fact all gone as my flock interact). Then our house was upside down with my eldest stepdaughter coming to live here and we refloored half the house.

*BUT finally today, I got a final test done and I can say it is completely gone. * I could NOT have done this without your expert help. So here's to you my friends. With so much appreciation from us here in Tasmania Australia. Thanks to you, my birds are no longer carrying Coccidia. I believe they came to me with it and so now, if we have any more wild birds dropping in soon (Spring is just a few weeks away and the starlings are already on our roof hunting for nesting sites) - so any newbies will be treated for Coccidia and kept apart from my birds, that is, if any more 'keepers' come to us. I am hoping for a very quiet Spring - hmmmm 'wishful thinking'
*
YOU ROCK Pigeon Talk - I will never forget your help*
love and light

Susan in Tasmania in Australia xxxx


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## feralpigeon

Wow, Susan, just starting Spring and no coccidia?? Back at 'cha'....y'all rock!
Hope you have a great spring and you get un-busy enough to drop in once in 
a while  

Love and Light

fp


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