# RELEASE DOOR OR STALLS



## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

HI EVERYBODY,JUST WANT TO GET AN IDEA ON HOW DIFFERENT FANCIERS DO THING. WHEN YOU LET YOUR BIRDS OUT TO FLY DO YOU LET THEM OUT THROUGH THE BUCK STALLS OR DO YOU LET THEM OUT THROUGH ANOTHER DOOR AND THEY ENTER THROUGH THE BUCKS TO GET INTO YHE LOFT. MAYBE YOU CAN GIVE ME THE REASONING FOR DOING SO. I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED IN HOW OTHERS TRAIN. THANKS.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi there,

We have a simple set of bobs infront of the door that we can hook up when releasing the birds from the inside. After they are released we put the bobs back down. So they enter the same door, having to enter thru the bob trap. Then we have a little plywood door on the outside to keep intruders out. 

We have a training cage we slip on the "launch pad" I call it, for training babies.

My racing friends all use the buck stalls, as they have many more birds than I do, and it is easier for training the babies. They exit thru a different door.

Treesa


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Please excuse my ignorance, but I don't have free flying birds and am curious if you have to do anything to get them to leave the coop. I've seen pictures of birds being released for races, but not from their home base. Do you just open a door or opening and they go, "Yippee, hooray, off we go!" or do you have to shoo them outside?

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Terri B


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

HI TERRI B,WE TRY TO KEEP OUR BIRDS A LITTLE HUNGRY SO WHEN WE LET THEM OUT THEY WILL RESPOND TO OUR WISTLE TO COME BACK TO THE LOFT. AS FAR AS LETTING THE BIRDS OUT YES WE JUST OPEN A DOOR AND LET THEM FLY. I DON'T CHASE THEM OUT.I LET THEM COME OUT ON THEIR OWN,AFTER A COUPLE OF TIMES DOING THIS THEY KNOW JUST WHAT TO DO.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for letting me know!

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Terri B


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Terri,

Yes, the birds do seem to go "yippy Yi yo" when they see the first sign that they are going out today. They already get nervous in anticipation when I first open the outside doors to the bob trap. They fly about the coop in excitement.

We fly around eight o'clock in the morning, before breakfast. 

The birds have all been trained since 6 weeks of age, they know where to exit, and where to enter. 

I don't chase them out either, I let them take their time, just in case someone is going to lay an egg, and doesn't feel like going out. Usually a few of the females are sitting on the dummy eggs, so I don't mess with mother nature. 

The birds that are older will take a 5 minute flight and come back down and socialize a few minutes on their roof (before I gently escort them in), and the younger birds will fly together and go out for a half hour. I've noticed the single males will usually try to hang around outside longer, and hesitate to come in. Arnold Jr, used to hesitate everytime he got near the bob door. When he saw me coming he would take off, again, and again. He would really play a game with me!..such a bad boy.. For his own safety,he now has a mate and he comes right in now!

Had he been part of a racing team... he would have been "put down" for his antics. That is the way the racing people treat them, terrible, huh?

Seing my pigeon from the ground, is such a great experience. They are poetry in flight, and a song! As they fly around the house as pigeons do, over and over, you can hear the swishing of their wings overhead, they are in tune with each other, and a united front. 
I am in that moment in complete peace....

Treesa


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Treesa,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. That is so cool!!!

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Terri B


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

I have young birds, the oldest is about 6 months, Komoner's and American rollers, when they are released they sit on the roof of the loft. How can I get them to buzz the neighborhood?


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi drift,don't worry about getting them to buzz the sky, they are young. some take more time than others. they will take to the sky on their own, if you have some that are very young i suggest you do not scare them and wait till the weather is calm not windy or your young will get blown away. in due time you'll have flyers. let me know how things work out.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Feed them 40 - 50% barley and they'll start flying.

birdy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am not sure about the Rollers and the Komoner's. We need Thunderbird to answer this one. Help!

We would gently nudge, (with guiding tool) the birds off the roof, as that is a no no.This is when they are already used to the guiding "broom". After a few flights the birds start flying as a team. 

Teach them to go inside immediately after flight, don't let them linger. 

Feed them a regular pigeon mix for active birds. It will have the correct mix of all the seeds they need.

Treesa


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

50% barley should only be used in the rest period, winter, when there is no molting going on and no babies being reared.

Treesa


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

Thank you so much for the tips. Would you suggest that I not release them until they are older, the oldest being about 6 months. Or shall I continue to release them and let them be roof sitters until they grow out of it. I really need some serious advice with this. I really don't want them to just sit on the roof. As I don't have any older pigeons to show the young ones the ropes, I really don't know what to do. Help !


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Treesa,

I respectfully disagree with your comment that 50% barley is only for resting. Yes, it's not a good feed for raising youngsters but it certainly can help with giving racing pigeons energy to fly. I would also think it would help with rollers, too.

Top European and American racing lofts use barley to get birds to fly. I was mentored by Frank McLaughlin, one of the best American pigeon racers, and I follow his feeding program.

I use barley extensively in training my young birds to fly. Only closer to racing season do I back off a bit and go more to a race mix with less barley. When they return from a race all they eat is barley with a bit of safflower as a depuritive the next day. They are slowly given less barley and more race mix as race day approaches. Barley is probably the most underated feed given to pigeons.

You should really research it a bit more thoroughly if you need help winning races. If you don't need help then you have proved that there are many roads to Rome. Barley is a tool to be used for one of those roads. 

birdy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hey Birdy,

I have researched the barley previously, and know that it is an excellent nutritious food for pigeons. What I have learned, I too, learned from the racers. There are so many things available to nourish, rehydrate, etc. these "lean mean flying machines." 

But I was talking about it in a mix, when pigeons are offered a variety they don't consume barley greedily, because of prickly extension at the end of the husk that irritates the tongue, even the short fat one. As I understand it, you offer them almost straight barley and safflower after they return from the race, so they are getting 90% barley?...then I'm sure they are getting enough of the energy vitamins B, and D and minerals that are in the barley.

My birds are getting a mix so I make sure I don't give them too much, otherwise, they leave the barley behind.

I'm so thrilled that you are a racer, could you perhaps give help to Perfect Drift, who needs to know whether he should continue to release his birds, or not to release them? I think you probably could help him more, as you are currently racing pigeons, and I'm not.

We are always happy to have lots of sources and people experienced with racing pigeons as well as rehabbing pigeons. 
Thank you for your help.

Treesa


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Treesa,

Sorry, I understand what you mean about the mix. Yes, they eat nothing but barley and a bit of safflower on Sunday after Saturday's race. I give them electrolytes too. The vitamin B helps with the stress of the race. Monday its 50% barley, 50% race mix; where on Thursday they eat all they can of the race mix. The race mix is made up of different grains depending on the length of the race and/or anticipated difficulty like winds, etc.

Your so right about barley. It's an acquired taste for our little guys but a healthy one. I would say that if you're not racing your pigeons just give them an all around mix like you suggest.

I'll try to help Perfect Drift in a separate post. Take care.

birdy


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Perfect Drift,

As I understand it your oldest bird is 6 months old and they sit on the roof but won't fly. And you want to know whether to release them or not.

I know Treesa and the Brothers have given you some good advice. I think young pigeons need a consistent routine like Treesa lets her birds fly in the mornings around 8:00 and they're trained since 6 weeks of age.

I assume your birds know how to enter the loft through your trap or opening.

What works for me is to let them out just before feeding, let them exercise until a few start coming down to the loft and then whistle for the rest to come down. So, I would suggest that you keep them in the loft for a few days. Feed around the time that you want them to fly but only enough that they can eat for 10 minutes or less - whistle while you feed them. I like to use a whistle so if you're gone your caretaker can blow the whistle and they're used to that sound.

My guess is that when you let them out for the first time they won't fly but will come back in to be fed. You may have to work your feed amount over the next few weeks. I use a scale for this but don't bother if you don't have one. I think eventually they'll take to the air and then come back in to chow.

Now there's one very important element to all this. You want to be a good neighbor. Believe it or not, not all neighbors like pigeons roosting on their roofs pooping all over the place. Be a good neighbor and have control of your birds. Use a whistle or something similar where they can be called into the loft. There is nothing cooler than having your friends over while everyone is watching your birds fly and then you whistle and they come zooming into the loft. You will get a ton of praise, trust me.

Hope I've understood your questions and helped some. Let me and the others on the list know if we can answer any others.

birdy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It is a lot of work training and breaking the habits of the telephone pole sitting and sitting on neighbors roofs, but it takes only a few weeks and well worth the effort!I let my immediate neighbors know that I was training the young and to please have patience. We also drove around and used nerf balls to chase them off roofs and telephone wires.Consistently doing this paid off, after two weeks. No more sitting on poles or roofs. My neighbors never see my birds, except when they are in the air, and I know if one of my birds is on my roof or someone elses roof, then there is something wrong, they are hurt by a hawk..

Birdy, I'd love to see your birds coming down on the command of a whistle, how cool is that!

My dad used a can of seed and the whistle to bring them in. 

Treesa


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi drift, birdy hit it on the head.when your birds do take to the sky, since they are young they will fly all over. but give them some time and they will fly as one. you have to monitor their intake. you can start off by using a tuna can. give them one can and in ten minutes if it's all gone try a can and a half, if there is just a few grains left you have found the right amount to feed them.never have your birds full bellied and let them out to fly they will bum on the roof all day and like birdy said, respect your neighbors. you'll do just find, take it slow you'll pick up on things that will work for you. we all have basics that we follow, but your birds are an extention of you and you can teach them and they will teach you.your birds are to be watched not only when flying but when they are down and in the loft. have fun and let us know when they do take flight. i personally keep a gender on each bird and the flock as a hole, how long they fly,feed,pairs,loft cleaning,grit intake and candy. i find it fun to keep track on each bird and the flock as a hole. again just have fun.


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

All I can say is, I hope one day I can repay someone the gifts you folks are giving me. As I live in SW Washington state, I know I do that with fishing for salmon, pass on the knowledge and hope that he or she gets as much enjoyment as I have from fishing. So, I will do the same with pigeons, if I every learn anything. Oh one day it will come together.
I have 6 young tumblers and 2 young rollers, they do return to eat, as the sun sets but not before. I have been using the whistle for about a week now as they come in and while they are eating. I think they are understanding that the whistle means food is on the table. 
As I work full time, I have been releasing them before sunset and they return just as the sun sets. But they don't fly or very very little, they just scoot to the roof and hang out. This is what concerns me and my 
need to ask you experienced folks questions. 
Birdy and Treesa, thank you both very much for your help, you are good people !!
My neighbors know, they may not understand the desire to raise pigeons but at least they are ok with me tossing small rocks if they do land on their roofs. I wouldn't want someones birds sitting on my roof and I try to not allow mine to do the same.
I quess I'll keep feeding the same time each day, watch the amount carefully and keep them in for several days until I get the food amounts assessed. I had been feeding them after they came in from roof sitting but I just quessed on the amount. 
So, letting them sit on the roof is OK for the time being? They'll take to the skies at their own speed, is that what you are saying?
PD


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Drift,

You're on the right track. I personally don't think hanging out on the roof is a bad thing at first but I would recommend that if they're not flying they should be in the loft. Please be ever watchful of Mr. Hawk - that's his favorite setting - pigeons milling about on a flat surface. They love to dive with talons out and hit our birds while perched. Once in their grip they're a goner unless you can yell at them and scare them away. Look for those smaller hawks with the longer tails like your coopers, goshawks, and sharpshins. The red tails and bigger ones are a bit poky and slow and generally leave our guys alone. If you're loft is new to his route he may not find you for a while but once he does it will be his favorite diner and he'll show up like clockwork when you let your birds out to fly. Your birds once they take to the sky will give them a run for their money and unless it's a peregrine will generally out fly them. If you have crows around you may want to throw some old bread out for them. They'll help you fend off your hawks. Again, make sure your neighbors are cool with crows hanging around.

Now, I generally have a few maverick youngsters that don't want to fly with the others at first. For a few days I just let them hang out on the landing board and watch. Then I will get my "flag" - it's a 20'- 2" PVC pipe with a red bandana tied to it and I gently nudge them off to the heavens. Once they get with the group they're OK and then take off with the rest of them. So, as it was suggested earlier I wouldn't scare them to fly but I don't thing nudging them off the roof would be bad. Move the pole or flag slowly towards them and they usually will take off.

These are practices that I do with racing pigeons so rollers and tumblers are an unknown with me so I hope that I'm not steering you wrong. You may want to do a google search and see what comes up for rollers. I know there are competitions and a pretty enthusiastic following. They're really cool birds.

birdy


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## Anwyn (Apr 4, 2004)

If on one of their first flights they get spooked by something near my house is ther a risk they won't come back, or be reluctant to?

Anwyn


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Anwyn,

Yes. When my youngsters are first given their freedom I am on pins and needles. I'm watching for hawks, cats, and anything that could freighten them. The first time out they just stand on the landing board looking at the sky and looking goofy. I have a fence about 10 feet away and one will fly to it then the others will follow. There's a lot of monkey see - monkey do. The second time out, one of the fearless ones will take off and then most of the others will too. And they will scatter to the wind but will fly a few hundred yards away still in sight. They do this for about 5 minutes or so and crash land on the roof or the aviary but most miss the landing board. It's a real kick seeing them perfect their landing. It's a special kick to see them take to the air for the first few times. They do all sorts of acrobatically feats - it puts a big smile on my face and I wish that I could join them.

In about 10 days to 2 weeks they do what the Brothers say and start flying as one - in a group. That's so cool to see them group fly.

Treesa puts her young out at 6 weeks. That's an excellent age for they're not too strong of wing yet and will stay close. Older youngsters or mature birds can fly far and may get lost as not to make it back. For these introductory periods keep them a bit hungry. Don't starve them but keep them a little on the edge so they're anticipating dinner when they're outside. After a week or two or three they'll catch on. They'll feel confident when out flying and know that there's a good meal waiting when they get home.

Does anyone else have some experiences to relate?

birdy


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## Anwyn (Apr 4, 2004)

How badly do dogs and pigeons mix??


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

Birdy and Treesa
I owe you both big time !!
It's working, just as you said it would, I released them today about 6pm, they flew to the roof and all made a short hop and returned. I watched and enjoyed with my daughter, one re-entered the loft, so I blew the whistle to come in and eat. YAH, they all returned within 3 minutes. I can't believe it, I have been using the whistle for 8 days now, as they come in and as they eat, low and behold IT'S WORKING.
I raise my hat to you.....
I'll keep you posted.
If you have any racers that you would dearly part with, I would love to get involved with that!! I fish alot and releasing on or near the stream and river would be a hoot. I know now is the breeding season and most keep their young But ???


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Anwyn,

I got a rescued Golden Retriever about 3 years ago. He was 6 at the time. When I showed him my loft and I entered it, he followed me in and tried to grab one of my birds. Well, they're bird dogs afterall. We had a 'man to dog' talking and I worked with him on a training collar for a few days. Now he goes in the loft with me and generally lies down while I mess about. He barely notices them but I think he gets jealous of my time with them.

Years ago I had a kitten that I brought up in the loft. I'm thinking about getting another. I think a mature cat would be difficult at best to train not to harm birds but kittens are very easy to learn. And, they are incredibly good about keeping the rodents at bay.

birdy


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hey Drift,

That's great news. I know Treesa will be pleased too. You see, those birds of yours are really smart. It's us humans that are the dumb ones.

I bet you can get racers from some folks that race pigeons near you. They're always looking for ways to get rid of the ones that come in last on race day. That's not saying they're bad birds it's just those humans again. Now if you want to compete in a club e-mail me and I'll give you my 2 cents on how to get started and avoid all the beginner pitfalls that I did.

I think you said that you're in Washington state. That's a great place for racing. Birds got to be tough to deal with the Cascades and all that weather - geez!

Here's a link to the American Racing Pigeon Union if you want to find a club nearby. You'll see 3 stars at the bottom of the page - the one of the right is "find a club".
http://www.pigeon.org/index.html 

Or, shoot me an e-mail with your city and I can find someone close by that you can call to see if they have some free birds - if you're looking for some racers just to have around and not do racing.

Take care.

birdy


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hey Drift,

Sorry to go on... but I realize now that you want young racers - DUH! Yea, that makes it a bit tougher. There are a couple of ways to go about it though. You could get you a couple of pair of mature birds and breed young ones. You can try to break the homing imprint from their old loft. It's easier after they've bred a couple of rounds. You can soap their wings and slowly get them to learn your trap system. Lots of folks have success with this.

Or, I bet one of your local racers would raise some late rounds for you. These are the birds that are too late for young bird racing. They can hand them off to you once weaned at 4-5 weeks old and they're easily trainable.

I apologize to the list for blabbing so much.

birdy


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## Anwyn (Apr 4, 2004)

Was you're dog ever interested in chasing other animals before the pigeons?
Mine is a golden retriever too, she'll be 4 in June. The closest she ever gotto being aggresive towards other animals is chasing cats out of the garden, but out of the house she hardly pays attention even to them.

After she tried to grab one ofthe birds were they frightened by her?
I wouldn't want her to frighten them away from our house especially on their first flights.


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi drift, how did your birds make you feel? i know i feel like i just made a partner, to me it seems like my birds and i are a team. a team has to work together to get anywhere. i'm glad they are starting to reconize what your trying to teach them. let us know how they are doing and when they start flocking together.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Anwyn,

Yes, he (a 90 lb blondie) is always interested in chasing cats. Although, if they were to come into our garden I probably wouldn't mind. He's a bit slow these days at 9-1/2 years.

The birds soon forgot about our dog, Harvey. They just go about their business when he's around now.

It might be a good idea to keep your golden inside or on a leash for your bird's first flight.

birdy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Way to go!!!!Perfect Drift. 
Your birds have seen the light, they see the connection between whistle and FOOD!

From now on, flying your birds will be a more enjoyable experience, for your pigeons, and you!

Treesa


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

HEY, They are training me also ! I am slow but not dumb, young birds get tired easily right? Each day they stay up a tiny bit longer. And when they do come down and sit on the loft roof, which is after only maybe 30 to 45 seconds, they are panting hard. They need to learn the new way to fly, straight and level rather than the short hops up and down like they do in the loft. 
I hope this makes sense. Never haven pigeons before these are training me too. I'll keep posting as WE go along. PD


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi pd,congradulations, you are becoming a pigeon mumbler (as we call it in brooklyn) otherwise a pigeon fancier. little by little you flock will fly longer and higher their young but they know what they have to do.if they are real hungry when you let them out they will not fly as long as you wish them to. thats where adjusting their feed comes into play. if i let mine out early and no neighbors are going to be out i'll feed then 1/2 hour before liberating them. when i say feed them i mean if they eat 1 can to fill up i'll only feed them a 1/4 can, they seem to fly longer that way but you have to be careful not to feed them to much because they might start bumming on you. as far as them panting, they have to build up their endorence, and also if it's warm out they will pant. i notice when i train young one to fly with the flock,i'll only let them fly a short time and with that my senior birds are just fine but my young do pant. how long was their last flight and please keep us updated.


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

BTL, thanks for the kind words !
Very good suggestion on the food, I'll start doing that and get back to you. I have been maybe under feeding them. 
They flew this evening and did two turns around the house and came down, I was pleased. That's an improvement over last week when they just hit the loft roof and stayed. 
Most are learning when it's time to fly, I open the bobs and most head for it, the others I kinda shoo out with out stretched arms.
I'll work on the food and keep you posted.
I feel that I am not alone in having a young loft of birds, I hope others will learn along with me.


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## slugmonkey (Nov 10, 2003)

I think that you need to make some decisions about what you want from your race birds do you just like pigeons and think that its cool that you can send them down the road and they will come home or are you wanting to compete and win neither is a wrong answer I just hate to see someone just starting out trying to be competitive and starting in the hole the key to winning races is healthy motivated birds, one of the hardest lessons you have to learn about racing birds is that just because you like something dosent mean that your birds will the truth is they know more about it than we do I just try to provide a home for my birds I give them all they want to eat I never try to control my birds by starving them I take them down the road to train and sharpen them up THEY HAVE TO LOVE HOME I try to spend as little time as possible in my loft during race season when race season rolls around its too late races are won in the off season


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

An update 4/18/04
Released the 8 young birds this morning, they flew for 3 minutes non stop. I was smiling from ear to ear. For about a minute of that time, they even flew as a group. 
We are moving forward, little by little. Controling the food and using the training whistle to return is working.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

I'm glad it's working for you, Drift. Keep it up. Your birds will love you for all the time you spend with them.

birdy


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi p.d. that's fantastic, you're doing just fine what time of the day are you liberating your birds? and are you keeping a log on what you are doing. soon they will be flying so long your neck is going to hurt, but your smile and your accomplishment will be great keep us updated. we didn't hear from you for awhile and i was checking the site to see how things were going. i just let 3 new young one out they did not take flight yet but fly to roof top and back to the loft any day now they will fly don't know if they will hang around or not but that's part of the game. once again good luck and keep them flying.


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

I am flying around 5pm, as I leave for work early.
Not so good news today, I lost 3 birds today, one was the smartest one. He would always come in when I whistled. I let them out and they made 6-8 passes around the house and only 4 came back. I have no idea what happened, I lost sight of them behind the trees for a while. The wind picked up sometime after the others came in, makes me wonder but this was after the others came in. I didn't see a hawk or other big bird, so I don't know. Maybe they will return tomorrow. Or ???
Question- some are getting old enough to want to start mating, do I seperate them now or move one of the sexes out entirely?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sorry to hear about the three birds, but don't lose hope just yet, they may come back.

Since three are missing, it sounds more like they took off, maybe went "routing."

I'm not sure about flying them at 5:00 P.M. Can you fly in the A.M., before you feed them?


How old are they now? ...They may be too young to breed. 

Treesa


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi p.d. like i said, it's part of the game to lose a few, but you feel it more when you only have a few birds. like tree said, they might be back. i fly in the evening during the week and early in the morning on the weekends. my records show that they fly much longer in the morning than late in the afternoon. hope the other three come back. if your birds are old enough to breed, the choice is up to you. it's a little late in my neck of the woods but a few young are produced this time of the year. i will let you know that when they do have eggs they will tend to enter the loft sooner to tend to their nest.so flights might not be to long. keep up the good work, and keep us updated.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*****BUMPING UP*****


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## Perfect Drift (Mar 8, 2004)

Haven't posted in awhile, I do have good news on the 3 birds, everyone of them did come back. 2 came in the next morning and one 3 days later. I was so shocked when a bird flew right over my head, welcome back came out of my mouth.


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## Thunderbird (Sep 7, 2003)

Drift,
On your schedule, I would only feed the guys at evening and then, only what they can eat in 15 mins. If they are in with breeding loft, then leave pellets available all the time, and seeds only at night. I have better luck settling by leaving a door open for a couple hours of free-fly so they get comfortable walking in/out of the loft. They don't spook so easily this way. You will need to be present when doing this, as they look to you a little as protection-i.e., nothing scary happens when you are around.


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## brotherstwoloft (Jan 25, 2004)

hi p.d. that's great, how did you feel when he flew over your head and was home amazing isn't it. i just let out 6 young a few days ago,they haven't took flight yet just acting like clowns around the yard may be in a day or two they will really take flight. hope they all stick around. talk to you soon let us know what's going on.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

bumping up


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