# Training Off the Line



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Hey guys and gals, 

I have a question for you and thought I would try and get a consensus or some ideas on where I should jump out to next. Our birds have been tossed from 50 miles and come back in good time. 
Now here the problem. Our loft is probably 100 miles off of the line. I have included a picture to help clarify things a bit. 
The release points are noted in the bottom right corner of the picture. The majority of the flyers and combine is in KC, which is north of the release point. Our loft is to the west, which is marked. My question is, do you guys think that we should continue to toss in a straight line from our loft to the release point? Or do you think that we should work towards the east and hope to get our birds to "break away" from the pack as they head north? 
Since there is going to be so much drag to the straight north, I'd thought I'd ask. 
I have asked a couple of folks via PM and I appreciate their responses. 
I appreciate everyone's help. Good flying! 

Click on the picture to enlarge it.


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## Paragon Loft (Jun 27, 2009)

I would do releases from the northeast and if possible with a group of birds from a flyer on that side of town so they learn to break away. i don't think it will hurt, im sure someone else will give you more info.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

On one hand if your birds follow too far north you've already lost so you can look at it 2 ways. 1. train your birds in a straight line and fly as many as you can because a small number of birds or a single will not likely break from a bigger flock, and still hope they will break right out of the truck or 2. train from a place northwest of the release and hope as the flock breaks up a little your birds will feel more at ease and break from the smaller groups and still have a chance to clock in the money as they say. It's a horse a piece I guess and in reality I don't know what they would really do. I would train them from Parsons or Lola or the junction of 39 and 75 or some ground feature that you think a bird would remember seeing from the air as a break point on the line of flight north of the release . Personally I never get close to the race station when it comes to training so read my words with that in mind but I still think straight northwest of the race stations. Going East you will loose for sure.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

being off line long. And the most flyers in KC you will do better past the 200 mile races. I would still train down the line BUT do move them over to the east line also. As they will be dragged there in the shorter races and have to turn to get home. Sometimes in young birds they get lost or trap in other lofts this way. Draw a line towards the main line going down from topeka to the south work that line. Any way you look at it work towrds the 200 and after races wher the birds will have more spread. You fly club and combine dont you. In club your chances are better then at a distance you improve in combine Good luck


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Wow...100 miles off the line of flight...I`ll never be able to complain about my 50 miles off the line of flight anymore....I am very short in loft measurements,when I`m racing...I am also 40/50 miles south of the line of flight...The main problem I HAVE is the prevailing wind in this area comes from the SW....We (All the other lofts)race from a West/SW direction...Not at my location...The SW wind helps everyone else...I need a NW wind....Very rarely do I get that in the summer months....I used to train(West), as close to the line as I could get...Probally 20/25 miles south of the line....When gas prices went up,I started to train SOUTH of my loft...The wrong direction...My birds did better...The only reason I did better was,I gave them more tosses of 30 to 40 miles...And they were in better overall condition,to fly with the leaders...If I got a couple of birds to break away from the lead group,I did well..If not,they homed from the NE,in which case I knew they followed the other birds to long,before they broke away....The birds I usally clocked 1st,come home from the W/SW direction,and they are not flying with the leaders...My lead birds are racing out front,but not breaking away...OLD Birds are no problem where I`m located...

My suggestion to you is,train the birds on the easiest driving roads,that are fairly close to your line of flight...Also train a few times to where the birds would be,if they followed the flock...That way,you will not lose them...After a few races,and the races get longer in distance,like the other man said above,you will get better results....Good Luck..Alamo


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

Forget about the break points, if you want your birds to win, train them in a stright line to the 1st race station. Find someone that you can train with and do a few group tosses. I used to fly 65 miles offline. My birds had to come straight west while 800+ birds went north. I was told to train to where I thought my birds would break, well guess what, that was at the 1st race station. I also went strickly with long and middle distance birds, as others have mentioned, you will do better once the distance goes up.

Good Luck.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

At $3.75 per gallon,V-John better be a millionaire....Training the pigeons to break,they need a fantastic "Marker" that they can`t miss....Take for example the Empire State Building...The birds can see that probally at 20 miles out.....Where I live,and the pigeons race over,there is NO landmark as such...If you live and race in say Detroit,the birds can see the tall buildings,and they would have something to guide them....When there is nothing but trees,that they are racing over,at 50 mph,they don`t pay attention to squat...They know their way home...If in top condition,the other birds could follow them to your loft,instead of your birds following to the other lofts....Get your pigeons to race out front,and you will be happy with your results...Healthy pigeons,in good weight,and trained properly,will have you on the 1st page of the race report sheet.....Alamo


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## KwikIrish (Jul 28, 2011)

Alamo said:


> At $3.75 per gallon,V-John better be a millionaire.....


If teachers were paid what some of them deserved, he would be darn near a millionaire.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I have to agree with Alamo. Of course I can't always make it happen but my philosophy is always to lead the race...I don't want to train with anyone else I don't want to worry about breaking from others etc. So that's my point....get them as fit as I can as efficiently and cost effectively as I can and hope I've got Racing Pigeons not just Homing Pigeons.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Rich, think about it like this. The best racers are your best homers. They home faster because they orient first and take the best coarse to get home . If they are just fast pigeon they would get lost out front by them selves.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I like to think I've figured some things out in this game but I've been in the horse business most of my life and the saying....More good horses have made good trainers than vice versa, certainly holds true here. Any success I've had is just because I've had some real nice birds that have covered for me. I won the awards you mention with a real special group of ybs I raised then stocked the best and won the OB awards with the same group as yearlings. I should thank you for being so kind in mentioning my birds Shorty2.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

ERIC K said:


> Rich, think about it like this. The best racers are your best homers. They home faster because they orient first and take the best coarse to get home . If they are just fast pigeon they would get lost out front by them selves.


I totally get your point Eric but I've got some nice Homing Pigeons that can't beat me across the street. Got to have that perfect mix. Case in point....I've got a three year old cock that was a gift to me. I've sent him 800+ miles each year for three years and he never fails to come home. I think he was in the top 20% a time or two. I don't send him hoping he won't come back as some do, I send him with the hope that he'll finally find that perfect race that he can win. It would be fun to know if he's the kind of bird that shows everyone the way to our home area, then the faster birds cruise past for the final 20 miles or something and win the race? If someone thought he'd fit in, I give him to them.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate your comments and help. We do fly with both the combine and club. Alamo, I wish I was a millionaire!  Straight line, here we come! I wish we had the time to break them up into groups, but school starts in a couple weeks and may not have time. Thanks for the conversation though. The line from Topeka on down is something we can work off of too.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

How far out do you guys try to get your birds out? I want to get ours one 100 mile toss but dont know if I'll be able to do much more then that. Our first race is 150, which makes it a 186 miles for us. Tough first race for the birds.... 
Thoughts? 
I know some folks just want t em in great shape and do lots of 40 mile tosses too.
Thanks for your help I greatly apprciate it. 

John


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

We make 25 tosses , going out to 1st race station which is 100 miles


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I just do 35 to 40 mile tosses, total tosses about 15 tosses gets them in great shape before the first race. you do not have to go to the race station if they come home good from 30 to 40 miles, they will never know you took them 150 mile for the race.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Old days a 50 mile any direction and that was far enough. But no days many want to make the first station.. Good birds get home. I have even jumped bird from a 25 mile to a 150 in the past and they came home like they were in a race. Loft fly them 2 times daily. And get them road trained. They will do the rest. remember you location the 100 and 150 races are road training for you. After that your chances improve. Might even see if the club and combine will start flying around the clock That way you have good location evry so many years.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

There was a time as long as they came home I was happy, I would get them out to the first race station a week before the race. Then I decided I wanted to win, Now I only train out to 50 miles. After I get out to 50 miles my wife takes them to work with her 25 miles, as soon as they get home I take them another 40 or so miles and in the late afternoon I take them 30 or so miles. I start doing this 10 days before the first race.

Give them all the corn and safflower they want, they need a lot of fat you don't want them to lose any weight.

Lots of people single toss them I never do, how can they learn to fly out in front if they are by them self.

Have cool fresh water for them every time when they get home, in the afternoon I put ice in the water so it will still be cool when they get home.

I never put garlic or ACV in the water for them to come home to, would you hurry to get water that taste bad. That's just a few thing I do, I've never won the 100 or the 200 mile race before, now if I don't win I'm close to it.
Dave


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys. I guess the long tosses are for my benefit more then the birds... And dave, those are great ideas thanks!


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Well, we had our first race last weekend. We had the first two birds that WERENT in the top 10%. 21st and 22nd place birds. The conditions were tough, it was hot and there was a strong south wind. The guys right on the line dominated, one guy had three birds on the drop flying at 1675 YPM. Our birds clocked in at 1345. 
Conditions this weekend are just as tough, if not tougher. 100 degrees forecasted and again, straight south winds. Ugh.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

V-John said:


> Well, we had our first race last weekend. We had the first two birds that WERENT in the top 10%. 21st and 22nd place birds. The conditions were tough, it was hot and there was a strong south wind. The guys right on the line dominated, one guy had three birds on the drop flying at 1675 YPM. Our birds clocked in at 1345.
> Conditions this weekend are just as tough, if not tougher. 100 degrees forecasted and again, straight south winds. Ugh.


Release temps will be cooler. Then time and distance the temps rise. As you get more spread on the distance you will see some improvement.. And knowing your handicap on the shorter races. You can not look as strong at the 10 percent mark. What distance is the race this week?


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

re lee said:


> Release temps will be cooler. Then time and distance the temps rise. As you get more spread on the distance you will see some improvement.. And knowing your handicap on the shorter races. You can not look as strong at the 10 percent mark. What distance is the race this week?


The first race was around 188 miles, give or take, since I'm such on the longer end. This second race will be around 190 some, I believe. Both races are considered 150 milers for the rest of the club. I tried to divide the birds into two teams, based on their stages of molt... So these guys really have to go this time. They have all been out to 145 miles on a training toss, but not under these types of conditions. 
The race is from Vinita, Ok.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

ACV & Garlic in the water,masked with Orange Gatorade,Monday & Tuesday at my loft for YB`s.....Lemon and Probio`s/Vitamins and Gatorade Wed & Thurs.....Friday Clorox....Sat & Sunday clear water...I have never had a worm problem,or a Cocci/Canker problem with this combination of drinking water...PS: NEVER....EVER Let your YB`s go on the ground !!!Only when and if they are on your OB race team,let them peck around on the ground....Alamo


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the tips. I like the Orange Gatorade idea, I will try it out for sure. Didn't seem like the vinegar and such would taste very good. 

I try to be pretty consistent about chasing birds off of the ground and houses. It's not unusual to see me running around the yard with a soccer ball or a cup of ice.  

I really hope that the conditions aren't too tough this weekend, especially since dove season opens up here on Sunday.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Alamo said:


> ACV & Garlic in the water,masked with Orange Gatorade,Monday & Tuesday at my loft for YB`s.....Lemon and Probio`s/Vitamins and Gatorade Wed & Thurs.....Friday Clorox....Sat & Sunday clear water...I have never had a worm problem,or a Cocci/Canker problem with this combination of drinking water...PS: NEVER....EVER Let your YB`s go on the ground !!!Only when and if they are on your OB race team,let them peck around on the ground....Alamo



The one thing I see you are doing wrong is giving them good gut bacteria on Wed & Thurs and then killing it on Friday!!! The ACV on Monday and Tuesday will also keep it from comming back.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Ace in the Hole...You are correct about the Clorox....I wash out the drinker with Clorox,and let it dry or wipe it out with paper towels...I don`t think any of the Clorox is left,or if any,it will not harm anything...I hope!!!...Alamo


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> The one thing I see you are doing wrong is giving them good gut bacteria on Wed & Thurs and then killing it on Friday!!! The ACV on Monday and Tuesday will also keep it from comming back.


Yeah, I agree. It obviously works for Alamo, but it doesn't seem to make sense. I like to have garlic in the water the day after the race to try and deter any growth of bad bacteria they may have picked up in the crate. Then Monday Tuesday they get pro bios to build their gut back up. I like acid in the water at the same time as pro bios. I quit using ACV because the pro bios I use has an acidfier in it.

Be careful with the Gatorade. Has a lot of sodium in it. Be careful also with the clorox. It's poisonous. Don't mix it with ANYthing else if you use it at all. My mentor uses it - he feels like it keeps the waterers free of germs more than anything else. I'm choosing not to use it. Maybe Alamo can specifically outline how he uses it so no one will accidentally over-do it.

Good luck with racing this weekend. Hopefully the heat won't cause too many problems.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Oops, we posted on top of each other. Thanks Alamo for the clarification. CLEANING with clorox - absolutely! I do it every week.

My mentor, however, says he uses it in the drinking water in small amounts. Not for me.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Thanks guys. Looking forward to what this group will do.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Clorox,esecially for stock birds,and old birds that are NOT racing,is very good...2 days per week,6 to 8 drops per gallon....Tues & Friday`s work real well....You can wash out the drinkers for birds racing in the evening,and they will be ready for the morning....My lofts are not at my home...No water or eletric where the birds are...I had to wash out my YB drinker with Clorox this morning...Hot weather makes the Gatorade slimey in the drinker...If it`s cool,there`s no problm...I washed the drinker,especially the bottom part,where the birds drink from..I have those white dommed kind....Then rinse it out with clear water...Even though I bring fresh water at least twice per day,thse HOT/HUMID days with rain especially make the water fowl smelling....I also wiped the drinker with paper towels....Now I can put in my fresh water,even if I have something to add as such Vitamins etc...As was posted above....Never add Clorox to any water that your giving the birds,especially Med`s....The Clorox hinders the medicine from doing it`s job....Best way is to have an extra gallon jug or two....Put fresh water in them...No cap on the jug...Let them sit for 24 hours...All the stuff
the water dept puts in the water will evaporate...So the Med`s will work even better for you....Alamo


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