# pox / canker lesions



## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi there..

I have a pair of Doneks that just raised their first squab I noticed the male had a bit of irritation on the corner of his mouth earlier this week. I wrote if off as due to feeding his baby.

This evening now Ive noticed its actually a sore and his mate has swelling and a sore now as well. Their squab does have a small sore on the inside of his cheek. I have separated them from the rest of the coop. 
This looks like pox to me but I am not sure. This is my first real sickness outbreak and I'm stressed. The sore is only on the cheek and on both adults its visible from the outside also. No pus/lesions in the back of the throat.

I plan to treat all three with Metronidazole 100mg pills in case it is canker. (although this says for prevention of canker and not treatment)

I can pick up some Pox dry and also do Pox vaccine for all birds. Guessing I can't vaccinate the 3 sick birds at this time.
Is the pox vaccine temporary coverage or how long until retreating?

I still have breeding birds and squabs and squeakers in my loft, and did not treat for canker before breeding season, when can I treat them for canker also? and when can I vaccinate them for Pox? 

what else can I do to limit the rest of the birds from picking it up and having the whole coop get it?
What do you guys clean out waterers with?


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Well that looks like a canker sore in a human, but the swelling at the side, I would gently try to milk it for a sec to see if anything comes out. I would go ahead and treat for canker as it wont hurt and if it IS pox then you will not notice any improvement with canker meds, so that is one way to determine which is which. I would the wait until completely healed and then treat with pox vaccine if u are inclined to do so. I would treat the others for canker as well without waiting and then if it IS pox and they get it as well, again wait until all birds are clear of illness to vaccinate.

Because the bird looks good and bright eyed and bushy tailed, my guess is canker. If pox, they will look and feel sick and tired. The first bird looks like could be pox lesion and the white bird looks to be canker so you may have both, time will tell.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

What about treating birds for canker (Hopefully just prevention) that are actively breeding/with squabs? Any issue? How early to treat squabs for prevention of canker


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The place is characteristic for pox. If so, it may grow and after healing, it may leave beak diformity.

If is pox, I remember an advice received on forum some time back, to apply very diluted tea tree oil, to reduce the growth and hurry the healing. I don't remember the concentration but I remember that it must not be open wounds.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yep, looks like mild pox on the skin, though where it enters into the mouth on the beak usually turns to canker. This is not a bad case of pox, it will clear up on its own within a couple of months and the birds will be immune, they just need a good food and clean water supply. You can make a paste of canker medication and dab on the canker sore in the mouth. Don't worry too much, this is not severe. In two months they will be clear.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

How long do I need to keep them seperate from the rest of the birds in my coop?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I have around 30 of my own birds, and have treated wild birds with pox for around 5 years. 

When pox went through my own birds, it presented like your photos, just a few bumps on the cere, toes or near the mouth. I found betadine solution dabbed on the pox sores directly to be extremely effective (including the sores just inside the mouth ). They also need a lot of sunlight. I didn't isolate them since they were well and had no secondary illness that needed treating. I had hoped to build flock immunity. They recovered within two months (no more sores) and never got it again.

The wild birds can get very sick with secondary problems due to pox. In the worst cases, it covers eyes, feet, and spreads very quickly in these places. They look especially unwell , have secondary illnesses, and can have breathing problems. If caught early in the disease and kept well cared for, most survive it. I've never seen one make it once it covers the eyes, or where it caused breathing problems.

Usually 6 weeks to 2 months will be enough to see a bird with only external pox see full recovery. Good Food and water, sunlight, and betadine on the sores is usually enough, with antibiotic and canker treatments where necessary.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't really tell how severe it will be, as it is just starting. It may spread. Don't like seeing it inside the birds mouth. That doesn't turn to canker. Pox is pox, and canker is canker. If it does get bad, you may have to hand feed them for a while. Good hand washing is very important after handling them, and before handling your other birds. 
You need to keep the mosquitoes out of the loft as best you can, and other biting insects, as that is how it is spread. Of course, then they can give it to each other, so segregate any birds that show symptoms. 

I wouldn't treat birds for canker who are actively feeding squabs, unless they show signs of having canker. That looks like pox. And Metronidazole is good for treating canker, not just to prevent.
How old is the baby? Because the adults should be getting 50 mg daily, for prevention for 5 to 7 days, but a younger bird, depending on age should be getting probably half as much. A good way to medicate the parents, would be to give at night, when it gets dark, and they won't be feeding the baby till morning. That way the baby doesn't get much of the med, as he would be getting too much from them. Would be a good idea to give the canker treatment to the parents, as often the stress of another illness will bring on canker. By giving med at night the baby may still get some, but hopefully not as much.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Nope, canker preys on pox moving inside the mouth, and a metronidazole paste will stop it. Betadine on the pox sore stops the virus from spreading, being one of the rare antiseptics with both antibacterial and antiviral properties.

Straight from the Melbourne pigeon vet website (which absolutely mirrors my experience)

```Is there any treatment for pigeons with pigeon pox?
No. There is no direct treatment for a pox virus. Sometimes however, where pox vesicles form inside the mouth, because of the warm wet environment here, they can become secondarily infected with bacteria and canker organisms. ''

http://www.melbournebirdvet.com/pigeon-pox-vaccination.aspx


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Many birds with pox will also get canker, so treating for canker would be a good idea.
They get canker because of the stress of being ill. Trich levels rise and they come down with canker. Whether or not the pox gets inside the mouth.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok thanks for the great responses. 
Their baby is pretty much eating completely on own. I haven't seen it fed now for over a week. I washed hands after handling each infected bird and then put on a pair of gloves with plans to switch them out if u found more sick birds. I didn't find any but I'm on definite lookout now. I washed the community water drinker with an ~1/8 or so bleach and then rinsed and rinsed and rinsed more.

This pair just hatched another baby about a week ago but it died a day after hatching. Looked weak from the start. But my first to die of unknown causes. 

I will continue treating the for canker and see if I can get some betadine and/or pox dry stuff at Jedds tomorrow as they are 20 min from me. Living in So Calidornia it's dry and hot and I haven't seen any Mosquitos so I'm a bit surprised but anything is possible! My coop is all hardware cloth and clear corrugated roof. Not closed in at all. Guess I need to be looking at building them a real house and turning this into a flightpen only after we move.
Fingers crossed this clears quick. I feel ashamed for letting them get sick.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If the baby is that old, then I would treat him also with 30 mg of Metro, once daily for the 7 days. Parents can be given 100 the first day, then 50 mg once daily. Let us know how it goes. Keep an eye on the other birds. 
Not your fault, can't keep everything out. Can be other biting insects also. Just usually mosquitoes. Nice to be so close to a pigeon supply.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I hope all went well. If you are having trouble tracking betadine down, I found it in a local drug store in 1 liter bottles, its very cheap in that form (hospital grade). 

Its also particular useful for handling pigeons with pox, as it can spread very easily; the sores are full of the active virus and what you want to avoid is spreading it to your birds internal organs via administering the medicine and opening the beak. You can douse betadine on your gloves, and this can minimize that risk ( Your birds are pretty white ones though, so you may want to just put betadine on the tips of your gloves to avoid discoloring them)

If you do administer tablets for canker or any other antibiotics, please remember it can cause yeast infection. Sick birds are prone to all the nasties, so I would recommend giving Nilstat/nystatin during treatment. 

And all the best to your birds! Its frightening see it go through your flock the first time, and waiting for their immune systems to do the hard work. The light at the end of the tunnel is they will have good immunity against Pox after this.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok. I ended up pilling all three 100mg Met. for two days. Now using Ronidazole in water for next few days. Also applied pox dry topically to external lesions. 

I pilled all birds in my loft with 100mg Met. once, unless they had squabs, those are all on Ronidazole as its supposed to be safer during breeding. 

The infected birds will be kept seperate for at least another week.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

I'll have to look into nystatin. I seem to remember mention that baytril can get their yeast out of whack too.
Should I start probiotics in the next couple days?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, Baytril is known for that. Giving probiotics now isn't going to do much good, as that's good bacteria, and antibiotics will kill both the good and bad bacteria. I always give it for a few days after the antibiotics are finished.
They need to be kept separated till cleared of all pox.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok so possibly seperate for like 6-8weeks?
I now see the benefit of sick bird housing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would. Just not worth taking a chance.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Starting to spread to his lower eyelid =(
Trying drops of colloidal silver cause I'm not sure what to do otherwise. His eye has some cloudiness.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Don't panic too much; this pox is not in the eye, it is on the eye lid/eye cere area. 

One of my young pigeons grew several large pox blisters around his eyes that forced his eye closed for a few weeks. I used betadine to stop the spread, which worked, but the pox blisters grew outwards then, making him look like he had a horn coming out of his eye. It looked dreadful, but I kept dabbing betadine/iodine on the pox, and he scratched it all off one day, it was just an empty shell. His eye recovered just fine, no damage.

The best thing for this virus is low stress, treatment for secondary problems if they come along (often they do not), and support for the immune system like probiotics, apple cider vinegar in the water, good food, hygiene etc. As adults with mature immune systems, they have a great chance at healing from this uneventfully.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement Bella!


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

So I originally pilled this pair with 100mg Metronidazole for 2 days and then Ronidazole for 5 days. I have pox dry stuff that i've been applying every 1-2 days. 
They have been done with the canker treatment for maybe 4 days now. The other day I noticed several pus nodules behind his trachea. At first I thought he was vomiting up a pea when I was looking in his throat but nope. I easily dislodged them with a q-tip. no bleeding but there is a sore there. 









Today there is another nodule.. I was thinking maybe it was canker and I pilled them both again with 100mg Metro. before I went to work. 

Now wondering if he's actually got wet pox starting. ACK!!!
Now kicking myself for potentially wiping out his good bacteria again with the Metro dose this AM.
Tonight I gave him some ACV in water and someone mentioned using Flowers of Sulfur.
Should I start giving him some probiotics?

Is wet pox a different strain of virus? or just dry pox thats gone internal. Is the hen with him who has dry pox going to get wet pox also?

Is Nolvasan good enough for disinfecting? This is what I have.
Any opinions on Oxine?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Based on the location and timing, its likely to be the treated/dead canker nodules on the tonsils being expressed ...I've seen very similar formations when dead canker dries up in the sinus and forms those yellow tumors. The timing makes sense, since you just treated for canker. Pox when it dries up turns black.

There is such a thing as wet pox (internal pox), but its very nasty and usually the bird will die. When I've seen it, the skin symptoms were very bad-not just a few pox sores, but a massive density of them, growing on top of one another where ever the skin is bare- and the birds were very ill. It mainly got in their lungs and they struggled to breath, but it can get anywhere. Its fairly rare in my own experiences.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Bella that it seems to be canker. Be careful, as you can start a bad bleed if they aren't ready to come off. I would treat longer for canker.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok that's wonderful news. I'm hopeful that's what it is.

What do you guys normally do for canker dose?
I figured 2 days at 100mg Medrozole and 5 days with Ronidazole would be enough.

I think I'd seen something mentioned with day 1- 100mg, day 2 and 3- 50mg if Medro?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I would use a lower dose metro for another 7 days myself. Its because the canker nodules, although inactive, cause damage to issue while the body is getting rid of them. I've used other antibiotics during this phase successfully, but metro kind of guarantees that the canker won't flare up again, whilst also helping the soft tissue repair without more infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would do as Bella says with 50 mg once daily, then evaluate again. If still signs of canker, I would treat longer. or add the Ronidazole. I have good success with Metro.


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## gingerpoo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok thanks! You've both been so helpful.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay, whats the longest you recommend treating with Metro? I've gone 14 days when the pigeon has a virus, have you tried longer?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No. 14 days was the longest I have had to treat, but not normally. That one was bad and wouldn't easily clear, but she had so much of it in her throat. If there was not a significant improvement after a week now, I would add another canker med, and use 2, one am and one pm.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Jay! Sounds like good advice.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some strains of canker can be resistant, so giving the 2 is sometimes needed.


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