# Red



## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

How can you tell the difference between homozygous red and heterozygous red pigeon? I want to pair up a homozygous red x brown. The reason for this ****/hetero red question is that I don't want the babies to carry blue, blue from the hetero red. 

I looked it up but homozygous red and heterozygous red "looks the same to me"


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Hetro ash red, hetro blue has blue/black flecks. Remember only cocks have can have two different colors. Hens can only hemizygous for a color mean one pretty much. You have to look the bird over for flecks.

This goes over it


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

So I'm assuming you mean ash-red. Ash-red hens and homozygous ash-red cocks are going to look the same. Ash-red cocks split for blue have blue/black flecks and ash-red cocks split for brown have brown flecks.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

I have a pair of red (I think), one has silver tail/flights and the other one has white tail/flights. Does that mean much?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It doesn't have anything to do with **** or hetero as far as I know, More to do with darkening or lighting modifiers that may or may not be present.

If you want an ash red carrying brown it will need to be a cock bird. Pair a brown hen to an ash red cock that has NO blue flecks and the young will be what you are after.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks Print Trippler, Maryofexeter, and NZ Pigeon!

One more question (sorry), does it matter if I pair a brown cock to a red hen (instead of brown hen to red cock)?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes it makes all the difference. Then all your cocks will be ash red based heterozygous (split) for brown and all your hens will be brown based.

Watch this video! My brother and I have been making genetic videos since it seems like most people don't care to read long write ups on it. It only takes a short time to understand concepts and then they will stick with you.

The cock always have two color gene then hen always has one. The cock gives one of his two color genes to the female offspring and he also give one of his two color genes to male offspring. The hen only gives one color gene to the male offspring.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

TwinTurboPigeon said:


> Thanks Print Trippler, Maryofexeter, and NZ Pigeon!
> 
> One more question (sorry), does it matter if I pair a brown cock to a red hen (instead of brown hen to red cock)?


You want ash red cocks carrying brown yea? So this way would work too, You will get all brown hens but all your cocks will be ash red carrying brown which I think is what you were after in your first post????


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Print Tippler said:


> Yes it makes all the difference. Then all your cocks will be ash red based heterozygous (split) for brown and all your hens will be brown based.
> 
> Watch this video! My brother and I have been making genetic videos since it seems like most people don't care to read long write ups on it. It only takes a short time to understand concepts and then they will stick with you.
> 
> The cock always have two color gene then hen always has one. The cock gives one of his two color genes to the female offspring and he also give one of his two color genes to male offspring. The hen only gives one color gene to the male offspring.


I'll watch all of them soon, but I'm sure that I will be somewhat confused still. I guess the hen plays more of a role in pigeon genetics.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Red spread = Recessive red?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

They both are really equal. Remember this stuff like base colors is not the same as most other genetics. Base color are sex linked along with dilute. Other cases like pattern and other modifier the cock and hen can have two copied for any trait. 

In sex linked things I pefer the cock to have the sex link gene if I can only find the trait in one bird. If I'd to choose to start a brown families of bird off of one bird I'd want a cock. The first generation when he is mated to a blue hen all the female offspring will be brown all the cocks will be blue hetro for brown. The next generation I could inbreed a daughter back to the original cock and now be making all browns

If I only had a brown hen the first generation when mated to a **** blue cock would only give me blue hens and blue cocks hetro brown. So I get nothing visually brown the first generation . The next generation inbreeding the son back to his originally mother would only give me brown hens half of the time and the other half of the time would be blue. The cocks would also be the same deal as the hens other than the blue cocks would carry brown. It would take another generation of inbreeding a brown cock back to one of the brown hens like the original mother to be producing only browns.

So as you can see i having a brown cock makes it a whole lot faster and less inbreeding. He is making brown hens and making the cocks het brown when starting with a hen just gives you blue hens cocks het brown.

Ash red spread is not recessive red. It ideally gives you a lavender which looks like an ash red bar without the bars. Recessive red is a modifer which can be on any base color. That video is two weeks away after spread haha. Then dilute then grizzle.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Print Tippler said:


> They both are really equal. Remember this stuff like base colors is not the same as most other genetics. Base color are sex linked along with dilute. Other cases like pattern and other modifier the cock and hen can have two copied for any trait.
> 
> In sex linked things I pefer the cock to have the sex link gene if I can only find the trait in one bird. If I'd to choose to start a brown families of bird off of one bird I'd want a cock. The first generation when he is mated to a blue hen all the female offspring will be brown all the cocks will be blue hetro for brown. The next generation I could inbreed a daughter back to the original cock and now be making all browns
> 
> ...


I'm not too much into the inbreeding so I'll just stick with the red x brown. It doesn't matter much if the males are brown or red (or vice versa with the females), I just want pigeons that are red or brown in color. But yea, your videos are great, I can't really learn from reading as well as listening


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

It was just an example to show the cocks are better when it comes to sex-linked recessive genes. Not saying go out and do it. Dont forget when you breed to of the same breeds of pigeons together you are always inbreeding. Breeding with*in* the *breed*.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Print Tippler said:


> It was just an example to show the cocks are better when it comes to sex-linked recessive genes. Not saying go out and do it. Dont forget when you breed to of the same breeds of pigeons together you are always inbreeding. Breeding with*in* the *breed*.


Opps, I meant line breeding. 

I have 3 reds (1 Rec red, 1 T-pattern, 1 checker) and 3 browns (1 spread, 1 T-pattern, 1 checker) and if their genders match with the other, I'll pair them together. I am most excited for the Rec red (hen) x brown spread (male, "dun" color).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Most people consider inbreeding to be brother x sister or parent x offspring. Linebreeding being more along the lines of cousins and such.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

The genetic calculator is so hard to use, lmao. I can only like fill in the first 2 questions.

Can someone tell me the possibility of the offpsrings' color/pattern if pair up a Recessive Red (hen) x Spread Brown (male)?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Most people consider inbreeding to be brother x sister or parent x offspring. Linebreeding being more along the lines of cousins and such.


Most people called ash red bars, silvers. What does it matter what most people consider? "Linebreeding" is a lesser form of "inbreeding". Your always inbreeding if your breeding two of the same breed together.


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

Great videos! I'm still a bit confused, but this is much better than trying to read this stuff!
Thanks!


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm a bit lost on "ash red". What is the "ash" part? Is it correct to say "ash red bar" and to not say "red bar"?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

That's a good question. As it does violate the "rule/ naming system". Though on the blue base color and brown base color every gene acts the same between the two except obviously on brown the color is different. Many genes act uniquely on ash red as opposed to the other two base colors. Anyways yes, saying ash red is a lot like saying blue black bar for a blue bar or silver dun bar for the silver bar. Normally you say the color of the shield and then you say what pattern the bird is. On ash red bar your saying the color of the shield is ash and the bars are red. It would be more Correct to call them ash bars or just stick to mealy bar.


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## Bobuki (Sep 26, 2013)

How do you get that mealy color on the reds? What gene causes that?

Also, what is the base color under almond? Can it be any of them?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Mealy means the same as ash red bar. Almond is just a sex linked dominant modifier. It can be in combination with any genes. Classic almond, the main phenotype (look) for almond is blue based, t pattern, kite bronze, het recessive red, and almond.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Gotcha. I'll start saying Ash Bar from now on; if I can remember, lol. So.... about ash reds, I have a pair of Ash Red (they are siblings: 1 T-pattern, 1 checker) and I noticed the the checker has a "all black" beak while it's sibling has a half pink and half black colored beak, how come and is one better than the other? And, my Rec Red hen has an all pink colored beak too. Does beak color and toe nail color mean anything much?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

ash red bar is fine. Ash bar, really? 
What would you call an ash yellow bar then...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

TwinTurboPigeon said:


> Gotcha. I'll start saying Ash Bar from now on; if I can remember, lol. So.... about ash reds, I have a pair of Ash Red (they are siblings: 1 T-pattern, 1 checker) and I noticed the the checker has a "all black" beak while it's sibling has a half pink and half black colored beak, how come and is one better than the other? And, my Rec Red hen has an all pink colored beak too. Does beak color and toe nail color mean anything much?


I have never heard of ash bar being used either, Most either call them red bar or ash red bar or mealy. I like red bar. I see Prints thinking on this but its making something simple complicated IMO.

As far as your birds beak, It is as we said in the other thread, The one with the dark beak and darker tail and flights has dirty.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> It was just an example to show the cocks are better when it comes to sex-linked recessive genes. Not saying go out and do it. Dont forget when you breed to of the same breeds of pigeons together you are always inbreeding. Breeding with*in* the *breed*.


That is the most insane description of inbreeding I have ever heard, That is the same as saying breeding two thoroughbreds together is inbreeding. Or two Labradors, I am with Becky, In this case what most people consider does matter, as its the truth, The term INBREEDING applies to breeding two closely related creatures together, Linebreeding IMO is very similar, just slightly less related but still inbreeding, As for your statement,

If I was to breed a racer from Belgium to a racer from NZ they would not be being inbred, yet I am breeding with*in* the *breed*

p.s. bolding two parts of two separate words is not really a way of proving something is valid.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> ash red bar is fine. Ash bar, really?
> What would you call an ash yellow bar then...


I suspect the only possible option would be dilute ash bar. I still like ash yellow bar myself.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I never said do not say ash red. Just saying it doesn't fit and people do make a fuss over silver dun bar. As far as inbreeding go. Evan, where did I use bolds to prove anything. I never said that was a proof. But since we're on the topic of proof. Where is yours? When you breed Labradors together it is a *degree* of inbreeding going on. How many breeds and how many dogs went into making a Labrador? I don't know but I would reckon that the two dogs are highly related. More closely related than a German Shepard is to a Labrador. When you breed to of the same breed together, why do you do? Because they look the same; why do they look the same? Because they have the same relatives. Now I will use some definitions.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inbreeding

1
:* the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock

Why do you breed two frillbacks together and not breed a frillback to a old German owl? That because you want to preserve or fix desirable characteristics. In a pigeon world of greater than 300 breeds when you take 1 breed and breed within that breed I would argue that it is closely related. I see this fitting the definition

2
:* confinement to a narrow range or a local or limited field of choice

Again, when you breed, two pigeons of the same breed or are choosing from a narrow range, limited field of choice. Your only go to breed your homing pigeons to homing pigeons, you've greatly narrowed you choices out of the 300+ breeds to just one. I see this fitting the definition 


Other definitions from other sources follow the same line

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inbreeding

1. The breeding of related individuals within an isolated or a closed group of organisms or people.
2. The continued breeding of closely related individuals so as to preserve desirable traits in a stock.

We can only wonder how inbred something like a frillback pigeon originally was when it was first created. How many pair got put together? Did all of frillbacks come from one bird carrying the frillback gene? How many pairs got put together until the breed was closed off only to practice inbreeding there after.

There's different degrees of inbreeding but when you say all domestic pigeons descend from wild rock pigeons. How inbred would and breed be then? Guess its just an argument of what you consider "close"


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have never heard of ash bar being used either, Most either call them red bar or ash red bar or mealy. I like red bar. I see Prints thinking on this but its making something simple complicated IMO.
> 
> As far as your birds beak, It is as we said in the other thread, The one with the dark beak and darker tail and flights has dirty.


Okay.... How about the one with the half pink and half black beak then?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Oh, here is another person, teaching students no less with this "insane". Not to be used as proof, I already outlined that. Just showing I'm not the only one, which again doesn't matter if I was or not. He even says "cross breeding is still having a degree of inbreeding going on in terms of domestic dogs and ofcourse other animals as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD8chZAQAis

30 seconds into the video
[yt]vD8chZAQAis&t=30s[/yt]


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> I never said do not say ash red. Just saying it doesn't fit and people do make a fuss over silver dun bar. As far as inbreeding go. Evan, where did I use bolds to prove anything. I never said that was a proof. But since we're on the topic of proof. Where is yours? When you breed Labradors together it is a *degree* of inbreeding going on. How many breeds and how many dogs went into making a Labrador? I don't know but I would reckon that the two dogs are highly related. More closely related than a German Shepard is to a Labrador. When you breed to of the same breed together, why do you do? Because they look the same; why do they look the same? Because they have the same relatives. Now I will use some definitions.
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inbreeding
> 
> ...


Valid.. you sure do have a lot of time on your hands however.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Don't worry, it only took a few minutes and I was already familiar with the video. The time I sacrifice for you all haha! Pretty funny in a sad sort of way. Im referring to your comment. Even when I'm vindicated right in your eyes (after the insanity) you still have to make a swipe on the level of "get a life". As if I didn't watch you post it all up for the whole last year... I might have more free time because I'm not driving all around releasing homers or going to club meetings and I don't own a TV or listen to music. Oh, and I care to inform people sometimes because sitting back and not posting on this form is enjoyable and at other time painfully fustrating seeing everything. I have to stop and ask myself if posting is even worth it. I probably won't bother next time.(foreshadowing) I really don't have to justify how I spend my time but I though I would say a few things for laughs. Anyways I'll make a post on topic now.

beak colors, toe nail color can mean things. Recessive reds have flesh beaks they can still have what is by some people called a "touch" or "stain" which is a dark brown spot on the tip up the upper mandible. Blue and brown based birds which have flesh beaks and no piebald touching around the beak have the smokey gene. Which gives a flesh beak but still most of the time has the touch of brown color on the top, with selection they can be free of that. They can start off clear but later add color. Tempature can effect it too for smokey birds with touch beak under cold tempature it shows up a lot more compared to very hot tempatures. Atleast from what witness a little bit and have heard alluded to. Piebald around the beak can cause the beak to turn flesh color, sometimes only part. Dilute lessens the intensity of the beak color also, from what I've seen.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> ash red bar is fine. Ash bar, really?
> What would you call an ash yellow bar then...


A cream bar since dilute ash red's are not ash colored. More of an off white.
Just like we don't call them blue dun bars as the blue is diluted to silver and the ash to cream.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Does "pale" dilute the ash too?


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes half the amount that dilute does.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Don't worry, it only took a few minutes and I was already familiar with the video. The time I sacrifice for you all haha! Pretty funny in a sad sort of way. Im referring to your comment. Even when I'm vindicated right in your eyes (after the insanity) you still have to make a swipe on the level of "get a life". As if I didn't watch you post it all up for the whole last year... I might have more free time because I'm not driving all around releasing homers or going to club meetings and I don't own a TV or listen to music. Oh, and I care to inform people sometimes because sitting back and not posting on this form is enjoyable and at other time painfully fustrating seeing everything. I have to stop and ask myself if posting is even worth it. I probably won't bother next time.(foreshadowing) I really don't have to justify how I spend my time but I though I would say a few things for laughs. Anyways I'll make a post on topic now.
> 
> beak colors, toe nail color can mean things. Recessive reds have flesh beaks they can still have what is by some people called a "touch" or "stain" which is a dark brown spot on the tip up the upper mandible. Blue and brown based birds which have flesh beaks and no piebald touching around the beak have the smokey gene. Which gives a flesh beak but still most of the time has the touch of brown color on the top, with selection they can be free of that. They can start off clear but later add color. Tempature can effect it too for smokey birds with touch beak under cold tempature it shows up a lot more compared to very hot tempatures. Atleast from what witness a little bit and have heard alluded to. Piebald around the beak can cause the beak to turn flesh color, sometimes only part. Dilute lessens the intensity of the beak color also, from what I've seen.


It was a joke......


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

With regards to your getting frustrated at watching some of the posts, I agree you and Corbin make full, informative posts, I understand a lot more than I think you give me credit for but at the same time, most learners want things in laymans terms, Not big long quoted posts which they could find on Ron Huntleys site anyway, Don't get me wrong, your big long posts are great for some, But do not discredit a simple one statement post which may not be technically correct to a T but is still helpful none the less.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

I checked my red pigeons and only 2 had obvious signs of the blue fleckings. The others have a white or silver tail which is a bit more difficult to tell but never mind that.... Some (maybe 1) has a blue line going down the feather shaft, does that matter?


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