# Need Help - Crate and Confinement Craziness



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Hi Everyone --

We need a little help figuring out our new situation with our existing pigeon, Chauncey, and her accidental new mate, Clyde (still to be renamed).

They are nesting in the dog crate we set up for Chauncey (with dummy eggs). During the day, the crate is open so they can come and go from the nest box. 

Normally there's a back perching shelf with bricks, above the nest box, but it's down for cleaning right now.



















Chauncey has always been fine with this setup. We didn't realize when we found her what a special, serene little soul she is.

Clyde, on the other hand, is going crazy being crated. Yesterday, I let them out at 8am. I got them back in at 7pm. Chauncey was on the nest the bulk of the time. 

But once Clyde was locked in, he went nuts -- climbing the sides of the crate, flapping, hanging from the roof, trying in the worst way to get out. He did this for hours. I covered more of the cage, turned off the lights, but he persisted for a while.

In the mornings, he does the same thing until I let him out.

For various reasons (one-bedroom apt, allergies, logistics of our place, etc) I cannot leave them out all night. They have to be in there at least during the night with the door open for heat exchange.

This morning, I noticed there was no poop at all in the cage. That means, from 7pm to 8:30am, they held it. I've come to believe that they view the entire crate as the nest box, not just the nest box itself. 

I'm wondering -- could this be part of the reason Clyde is going crazy? What can I do? We're limited in what we can achieve in our little space. And it will be a year or so before we can even think of moving to a bigger place.

It's heartbreaking to watch Clyde. Plus, sleep is almost impossible with the racket he makes throughout the time he's crated.

Would setting up something next to the crate -- some kind of pet playpen -- work? Any other ideas? Outside is not an option, unfortunately. 

[For those who don't know our threads, we're "accidental" rescuers of a racing pigeon. Racing pigeon #2 -- Clyde -- came our way after being at an animal shelter for a month with an injured wing. We didn't know at the time that he and Chauncey would mate. That's how we ended up here.  ]


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It might help if you attach a shelf or perch closer to the top of the cage, for him to perch on at night.
My couple, Sammy and Romey, won't poop in their cage at all likely because, in the wild, the sent of poop could draw a perdator to the nest. Baby Pigeons hang their little bottoms over the edge of the nest to poop outside of it...probably for the same reason.


----------



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Charis said:


> My couple, Sammy and Romey, won't poop in their cage at all . . .


Are Sammy and Romey ever confined? Or do they come and go as they please? If confined, do they just hold it for that time?

I don't want to be inhumane by forcing these sweet birds into unnatural habits. I do, however, want to figure out the best methodology for them and for us, in our small space. 

Before they mated, neither Chauncey nor Clyde had any qualms about pooping in the cage.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sammy and Romey are confined at night for their protection.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think the shelf up higher in the cage is a good idea.. he may want to settle down and roost there. so you have the two choices leave the door open or close them in at night... closing him in is what you want to do, so just do that and he will get used to it eventually. well one can hope...lol...


----------



## showboat (Nov 17, 2009)

You might try getting a shoe box and fasten it about 12 inches from the top of the cage and in such a way the male can roost and poop from three different sides. When I have pigeons on the nest the males like to sleep on the sides above the female. The problem is that once a nest box is moved from it's original position the birds seem to get confused.


----------



## loftkeeper10 (Jul 31, 2004)

Did you always have blankets around the sides of the cage ? The feeling of being traped might be causeing the fear.Do they seem to have a favorite pearch when out ?
When pigeons nest the cocks sits on the eggs dureing the day and the hen at night has the one bird layed eggs?


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

What a pain!  It sounds quite frustrating for all of you. One thing, he will adjust over time to the confinement. But that doesn't help short term. That is a pretty large set-up for them already. Hopefully the ideas suggested will pan out. You could go overboard a bit and add, like you mentioned, another part to it (a "pooping" area lol)just until he settles into the routine. I was lucky enough to find a used, clean playpen for my indoor pigeons last year and that worked very well. 

I would suggest taking him at night for now and putting him into a small cupboard with a towel down for poops. Do this when you go to bed. He will sleep in the dark, small area, and it will likely feel safe for him--also, he will almost definitely poop in there. Mine do. Or, if he won't poop in there either, you can let him have a flap around the room for a minute or two in transit from the cupboard to the cage. After a bit of running around, poop will ensue. 

I have four indoor pijies at the moment and one of them is a youngster who flies all over the place at night (he likes to hang out with the parrots, who stay up late with us). It runs the parrots nuts by the end of the day and is also pretty noisy with the constant flapping and peeping (he's very proud he can fly so he likes to "talk" about it constantly). I tried caging him but he did the same thing as yours; flapping and anxious to be out with the rest of the fam'. So I put him in the closet in one of the little "cubby" shelves I have in there. That's where two of the others have a nest on the floor (they don't fly) and the third sleeps in another low cubby (also mostly non-flier). Feep (the youngster) sits in his cubby all night without a peep until I let him out in the morning. It works wonders. 

When I lived in apartments and had all indoor birds, they EACH had a cupboard to sleep in at night that had a door that closed. It is completely dark, small, and safe and cozy. If they are not laying on a nest, put them both in there. Or, just him. 

It seems that when they are in complete darkness, they go straight to sleep and don't know what else is going on until morning. And if you're worried about separating them during the night, let me assure you that several of my outdoor pigeons sleep in different spots. Some prefer a high perch at night while their mate prefers the next box. Some lay on fake eggs while their mate sleeps next to them, or their mate might sleep in another empty box next door, or above, or on a perch. So you won't have to feel guilty about separating them at night. 

Anyway, I do go on......Hopefully this will work for you until he settles in. Sometimes it can take a few days or a few weeks, but eventually he will get into the routine!!


----------



## Guest (Jan 1, 2010)

I agree with the others here , in time he will get more into the routine of things and calm down ,most pigeons adapt very well no matter where they end up


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Mated pairs are usually desperate to poop well away from their nest. Looking at your set up, the nest is sitting on the “ground” which makes the entire space seem to be the nest box. You might try raising the nest box closer to the top of the crate (move it an inch a day if you want to keep them from abandoning the current “clutch”). This will help differentiate the floor of the crate from their home.

Provide a roost for the male at about the same height as the raised nest box. A 6" piece of 2 by 4 clamped to the wire would work nicely. From what I’ve seen with my birds, the male prefers to roost a little away from the nest. The roost should have a good view of the nest but far enough away so he can intercept intruders before his mate and babies are in danger.

If you have the room, you could also attach a second wire crate to make a more elongated space. This would let them poop further away from the nursery. If you put a raised perch at that far end, you might find that most poops accumulate under there.


----------



## SPedigrees (Oct 27, 2004)

I really don't have a solution to offer about why Clyde is so claustrophobic in his cage, but I have to say this looks like a pigeon palace! When you said Chauncey was living in a dog crate I pictured one of those plastic kennel type things. This roomy open cage is much nicer than what my pigeon (Hedwig) has for housing. (She has a parrot cage with a cardboard nest box attached.) I hope you are able to resolve the problem with Clyde. I think the idea of a "2nd story" perch is a good one. Hedwig prefers the highest perch in her cage. Best of luck with your two birdies.


----------



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thank you!

Okay, last night, I re-attached the clean shelf (6 inches deep). I set it a few inches above the nest box with a brick to hold down the paper (which keeps the shelf clean). He seemed a bit more at ease with this setup and did poop a little up there. He wasn't as frantic last night.

I may play with the placement of the nest box once they stop sitting on this clutch [of dummy eggs]. I think I'll leave them be until then, unless Clyde starts going utterly crazy again. He's in there right now and we'll see how it goes this evening.

I had another perch near the front of the cage when it was just Chauncey. She used it in the beginning, but then abandoned it. So I took it down. I may have to reconsider. Between the two perches, I was worried Clyde wouldn't have enough flapping room in the middle.

Ideally -- if I were to start from scratch -- I would place the nest box on a back shelf, raised up, right? Then, if I understand correctly, Clyde would either perch on the far end of that shelf? Or would I install another shelf above that? Or off to the side? I'm a bit confused on what might be the ideal placement for a situation like ours.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

valeri said:


> ...Ideally -- if I were to start from scratch -- I would place the nest box on a back shelf, raised up, right? Then, if I understand correctly, Clyde would either perch on the far end of that shelf? Or would I install another shelf above that? Or off to the side? I'm a bit confused on what might be the ideal placement for a situation like ours.


Based on my birds' preferences, the males like to roost on the same level as the nest, but about 12" away. This way they can see their mate and nest, but have room to maneuver for defense. 

One thing I wish I had included was a perch for the hen during the first week of the courtship phase. Even with long established pairs (Walter and Grace have been mates for six years), the hen likes the option of being alone sometimes. 

If you put the nest box in the back left corner, perches in the front right and left corners should leave flapping room in the middle. Your birds are very lucky to have such a caring person. With all the planning I do, I end up watching how the birds use the space and making tweaks here and there.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Valery, if they are sitting on eggs, they hold poop during the shift. In the mornings and around 16:00 it is poop time. They will want desperately to go far from the nest and poop. They excrete one huge poop and all set after that. Sorry I did post another info in your other thread without knowing that they sit on eggs.


----------



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

If I move the nest box tomorrow -- put it a bit higher on the shelf -- will that help? Or will that really mess them up, to move it mid-nesting cycle?

I've noticed that Clyde goes completely nuts before he has to poop. It's almost like he needs to fly and fly and fly before he can induce himself to go.

I wonder if that's what's going on with the morning flapping. I'm just grabbing at proverbial straws, trying to figure this out.

*BTW: Sorry for two threads on similar topics. Clyde has taken on other frantic behaviors which I thought warranted a separate thought. But apologies for the overdose.*


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I would not move nest-box while they are on eggs. Bricks, should go towards the center of the cage so they can perch and turn without touching cage walls. Flat wooden plank as a perch on medium height, but not on top of food/water bowls will be great. You can even place smaller bowls as this one for water looks big enough to take a bath in.
Are you using wrapping paper for the bottom of the cage? Newspaper is more absorbent.


----------



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Okay, will wait until they are off the eggs. I may need to drill extra holes in the nest box anyway -- to secure it firmly on the shelf. 

Thanks for the brick advice! Have always had them too close to the cage bars, I guess.

btw: When Clyde showed up, the two of them took a bath in that dish together as they were bonding. Chauncey never did alone. Anyway, good advice on switching the bowls. When we first got Chauncey, we were reading all of these warnings about never letting your pigeon run out of water and having the water at least an inch deep, etc. I got that bowl for when I was away during the day for work. I obviously erred on the side of overkill.

We're using brown kraft paper we buy by the huge roll. We found it was easier to cut into removable slices. That is, I can just remove those pieces that are soiled and it works out well. Plus, we gave up our two newspaper subscriptions so newspapers are more scarce. But I'll reconsider based if the increased absorbency is significant . . .


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I use covered bird waterers 300 ml for drinking water daily and once or twice a week place inside bowl like yours to take a bath. Water in big open bowl may be easier soiled.
I use newspapers as I get them free it is not a problem if the other one works better for you.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

valeri said:


> ...I've noticed that Clyde goes completely nuts before he has to poop. It's almost like he needs to fly and fly and fly before he can induce himself to go....


This tweaked a memory of when we first got Grace. She was DESPARATE to get out of the quarantine dog crate first thing in the morning. Let out, she flew to the far corner of the room (always the same one) to poop. Easy to clean up the one humongous poop and she seemed much calmer.


----------



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

This is what we ended up doing for the time being. We added a pigeon "foyer" to their executive suite. (The new cage is similar in construction to our original crate, but it has three doors that are removable, making it easy for us to put the two together by removing the end door.)

This setup didn't help Clyde much the first night. He flapped around like crazy in the foyer. But after a couple of days, Clyde did use the new perch in the foyer, and left some poop there, away from the nest box.

I can't figure out if Clyde does better with the cage covered or open at night. I've been putting cover at each end and that seems to give them both some shielded areas, with room in the middle to see out. We'll see . . .

Once they're done sitting on this cycle of [dummy] eggs, we'll raise the nest box a bit on the shelf, and hope that helps as well.

I think this cage setup will be good for when we have to go away for a few days and our petsitter looks after them. It gives them a bit more space -- for themselves and from each other.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

The extra room looks good. Once they are off eggs, you might consider swapping sides - putting the nest box raised up in the smaller crate with a perch at the far side of the larger crate. Seems like they'd have more flapping room in the large crate that way. The nest area should be dark (covered) for better "predator protection" and peace of mind.


----------

