# My pigeon is wobbly, shakes its head and twists it neck around



## Jae.Farah

Good day everyone. My pigeons were starting to get sick "diarea" so i went down to my local pet store and baught some meds for them. the very next day after starting the treatment. one of my birds became very wobbly and started to twist its neck around and move it in very weird ways. i as wondering if anyone has ever seen or heard of anything like this of if anyone can help. i reall like my bird and would like to know if there is a way i can help her. she is still active, she eats and drinks and well its been two days now and her poop problem is fixed but now its this. Any help is apreciated. 

Johnny


----------



## Feefo

Please separate the sick bird from all the rest and also separate any other that had diarrhea from the healthy birds. If you have probiotics and vitamins then give her some and make certain that she has access to water but that she is not at risk of drowning (I do this by putting the water in a narrow container).

Had you vaccinated against PMV and/or paratyphoid? 

Can you describe the "diarrhea"? Was it brown, slimy green or like a watery pea soup? Was it smelly?

Can you describe the "weird ways" in which she moved her neck.

Are there any other symptoms that you have noticed, like drinking a lot of water?


----------



## Charis

Neurological symptoms can be caused by a variety of causes, among them bacteria, virus, fungus, parasites,
No one here, can tell you without doubt, that your birds do indeed have PMV virus because saying so, would be the same as saying every person with a head ache has a brain tumor.
Your birds need to be evaluated by a veterinarian starting with a fecal exam to see what if anything is revealed. You also need to evaluate the place in which there are house with a critical eye, such as…are rodents getting into the loft or has their food become wet or moldy.
It is very important that your birds be treating for the cause of the symptoms.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/30135015


----------



## Feefo

Of course there are a lot of causes for what some broadly term "neurological symtoms", just as there are a lot of causes for "digestive symptoms" . 

The logical approach, at least in my view, is to look at *all* the symptoms and the full clinical history including vaccination history . Then we see which conditions have that particular combination of symptoms. After all, we would never suggest that a person with a headache should start with a blood test without first checking whether he had had too much to drink the night before! 

If it is PMV as Spirit Wings suggested as a *possibility*, a fecal exam wouldn't confirm it or eliminate it. So if you can give us as much information as possible we will see how we can help, which after all, is why we are here.


----------



## pdpbison

Jae.Farah said:


> Good day everyone. My pigeons were starting to get sick "diarea" so i went down to my local pet store and baught some meds for them. the very next day after starting the treatment. one of my birds became very wobbly and started to twist its neck around and move it in very weird ways. i as wondering if anyone has ever seen or heard of anything like this of if anyone can help. i reall like my bird and would like to know if there is a way i can help her. she is still active, she eats and drinks and well its been two days now and her poop problem is fixed but now its this. Any help is apreciated.
> 
> Johnny




Hi Johnny,


If they are standing tallish, like 'Bowling Pins' or like a 'Penguin', and moving their Neck and Crop muscles in odd sideways and up and down ways, this is typically a sign of a Candida/Yeast infection in the Crop and or Throat.

This can occur easily of the Pigeon has been on some of the Tetracyclines or their kin, or, who knows, it happens when it happens.


Medistatin, tubed in, will ameleorate...

ACV Water, of say eight Tablespoons to a Gallon, may alleviate, ( and many times had in my experience, ) or will not hurt anyway...but, Medistatin is understood to be a first choice for this.


If Candida/Yeasts, an infection can soon lead to a static Crop, and, some difficult issues, if not corrected quickly before reaching that stage.


Canker can sometimes occasion a similar look, with those odd motions of the Crop and Neck, and or a static Crop...and or, one leads to the other, in whatever order, also sometimes...


Are their Throats clear far down as you can see?


----------



## Jae.Farah

thank you all for all the help i read all of the replies. now none of my birds have ever been vaccinated for anything. and i'm trying to find out where to get them vaccinated or have a vet look at this one bird at least. I live in Stockton Ca which is about an hour from Sacramento or bay area. thank you again sooo much . i never knew anyone really cared about these things till i googled today.


----------



## Charis

Here's a list of some California veterinarians. If one isn't close to you, call the closest and ask for a referral in your area.
Many of care deeply about Pigeons.


All Animals Medical Center
Atilla Molnar, DVM
23815 Ventura Blvd.
Calabasas, CA 91302

Avian & Exotic Animal Hospital, Inc
Dr. Jenkins, DVM, ABVP Avian
2317 Hotel Circle S. Suite C
San Diego, CA 92108
Phone: 619-260-1412
Fax: 619-260-1499
Pet pigeons and probably ferals if the rescuer accepts financial responsibility.

For The Birds Veterinary Hospital
1136 B DeAnza Blvd.
San Jose, CA
408-255-1739

Medical Center for Birds
Dr. Brian L. Speer
Dr. Scott L. Ford
3805 Main St.
Oakley, CA
925-625-1878
www.medicalcenterforbirds.com

Wildwood Veterinary Hospital
1115 Lucchesi Dr.
San Jose, CA
408-265-8811

4 Corners Veterinary Clinic
1126 Meadows Way
Concord, CA
925-685-0512

DR. Mark Restani
1570 Bryant Street
Daly City, CA
650-991-1761


----------



## Jae.Farah

thank you for the quick reply. (o=


----------



## Jae.Farah

Now I've been researching all day yesterday and this morning and I found this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504555/ a little earlier. has anyone seen this before? I think what they're saying is this might be a side effect to the antibiotics and i should stop anibiotics. ? can anyone elaborate please


----------



## Feefo

What antibiotics have you been giving them, at what dose and for how long?


----------



## Jae.Farah

i have duramycin-10 which is tetracycline hydrochloride soluble powder which is an antibiotic, and sulmet which is sulfamehazine sodium antibacterial drinkin waer ****ion. i'm giving them as directed on the container even measured down with a scale. i 've also been giving them acv but at a very low dosage. like one table spoon per gallon . the acv i've always gave them cause i know it's good for them but he other stuff i started like two days ago and right after i started is when this one bird started acting up. i'm thinking maybe its some reaction she's having to one or both of those.


----------



## Feefo

I have pm-d a member who knows more about antibiotics than I do, hopefully he will be able to give you a better informed answer than I can give! .


----------



## Jae.Farah

Thank you soooo much . I really apreciate all the help. you guys are awsome. I mean i'm not a pro with this stuff but i love pigeons and i started buying them and keeping them as pets. and i have about twenty now and just hatched my first babies. all 8 hatched this weekend. so i'm pretty excited and don't want them to get sick (o=


----------



## Feefo

Congratulations on the hatchlings! 

I asked about vaccination history, but forgot to ask whether your birds come in contact with other birds and if you had introduced new birds recently. THis could have exposed them to infection.

It is very important to quarantine new birds for a period, the minimum period I use is 2 weeks but others would recommend a longer time.


----------



## Jae.Farah

thank you. and no i didnt add any new birds.


----------



## Feefo

If they haven't been in contact with other birds recently that would go a long way to excluding a virus as the cause (rarely viruses can be spread fecal matter or fecal dust from infected birds on clothing, shoes, or the fur of mice.)


----------



## pdpbison

Jae.Farah said:


> i have duramycin-10 which is tetracycline hydrochloride soluble powder which is an antibiotic, and sulmet which is sulfamehazine sodium antibacterial drinkin waer ****ion. i'm giving them as directed on the container even measured down with a scale. i 've also been giving them acv but at a very low dosage. like one table spoon per gallon . the acv i've always gave them cause i know it's good for them but he other stuff i started like two days ago and right after i started is when this one bird started acting up. i'm thinking maybe its some reaction she's having to one or both of those.




How long have they been on this, and, with what improvement in condition?

With-hold Grit or other Calcium sources with Duramycin.

Also, Candida/Yeast issues are a probably eventuality with that antibiotic.


----------



## Jae.Farah

like i said they've only been on it for about a couple of days and some of them are now pooping normal poop and some continue to have dhiarea.


----------



## Feefo

> Neurological symptoms can be caused by a variety of causes, among them bacteria, virus, fungus, parasites,
> No one here, can tell you without doubt, that your birds do indeed have PMV virus because saying so, would be the same as saying every person with a head ache has a brain tumor.
> Your birds need to be evaluated by a veterinarian starting with a fecal exam to see what if anything is revealed. You also need to evaluate the place in which there are house with a critical eye, such as…are rodents getting into the loft or has their food become wet or moldy.
> It is very important that your birds be treating for the cause of the symptoms.
> 
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/30135015


Thank you for providing that link Charis, it confirms everything I have been trying to explain! 

It says is that the most common cause of central nervous conditions in pigeons at that particular practice in California in 1993 was *Avitrol poisoning *and it describes the specific symptoms observed in poisoned pigeons:*incoordination, ataxia, rapid spasms of eyelids and pupils, head and neck tremors, hind limb paralysis, hyperthemia, shallow respiration and bright red legs*". 

Then it lists the conditions that can be used for *differential diagnosis*.

Differential diagnosis means *Distinguishing between diseases of similar character by comparing their signs and symptoms. * 

This is exactly what we are trying to do when we collect information about symptoms, location, vaccination history, exposure to infection etc on this forum: identify the most likely cause from the information available and eliminate as many of the other possibilities as we can so that *if* any test is needed to confirm or eliminate a condition it can be chosen prudently.


----------



## pdpbison

Organophosphates usually occasion an odor in the Bird...this may be a faintly, sickly 'burnt' sort of smell.


'Avitrol' tends to be soaked into whole, large, Kernal Corn.

This may be palpated in the Crop if still present...

Avitrol Poisoning, when survived, tends to clear up in a day or so, far as any symptoms...if longer time is only poite, for extended recovery.


But yes...one rather needs to distinguish if possible, probable kinds of presentations.

Degydration can occasion 'wobbly' Pigeons...as can starvation...as can the host of bacterial/microbial/fungal opportunists which slipstream in when an immune system and system generally is suffering extended privation or other compromise...


On and on...and on...


----------



## Feefo

> Degydration can occasion 'wobbly' Pigeons...as can starvation...as can the host of bacterial/microbial/fungal opportunists which slipstream in when an immune system and system generally is suffering extended privation or other compromise...
> 
> 
> On and on...and on...


Exactly...that is where looking at the *combination of symptoms*, instead of each symptom in isolation is helpful. Of course, in a lot of conditions a firm diagnosis is elusive...after three years the specialists haven't been able to determine whether I have pigeon lung disease or pigeon lung disease *and *cryptogenic organising pneumonitis! And I am not sure whether it really matters any more!


----------



## jameswaller

*ahead of the curve*



Jae.Farah said:


> i have duramycin-10 which is tetracycline hydrochloride soluble powder which is an antibiotic, and sulmet which is sulfamehazine sodium antibacterial drinkin waer ****ion. i'm giving them as directed on the container even measured down with a scale. i 've also been giving them acv but at a very low dosage. like one table spoon per gallon . the acv i've always gave them cause i know it's good for them but he other stuff i started like two days ago and right after i started is when this one bird started acting up. i'm thinking maybe its some reaction she's having to one or both of those.


i don,t believe pet stores carry what you really need.??.you do have some antibiotics on hand,,so that puts you ahead of the curve--if-the culprit/bacteria/dies--saving the birds.//.i use clavamox-(AUGMENTIN)- for a wide range of pigeon illnesses--the antibiotic you mention,i hope does the job,,,.is the infected bird in with the group??,,you are correct-in treating all pigeons,,as this disease is contagious--birds cannot fly,will throw up,and may need individual-attention,...if it-spreads..sincerely james waller


----------



## John_D

Charis said:


> Neurological symptoms can be caused by a variety of causes, among them bacteria, virus, fungus, parasites,
> *No one here, can tell you without doubt, that your birds do indeed have PMV virus because saying so, would be the same as saying every person with a head ache has a brain tumor.*
> Your birds need to be evaluated by a veterinarian starting with a fecal exam to see what if anything is revealed. You also need to evaluate the place in which there are house with a critical eye, such as...are rodents getting into the loft or has their food become wet or moldy.
> It is very important that your birds be treating for the cause of the symptoms.
> 
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/30135015


We can really each only speak for ourselves on this board, not for the entire membership of Pigeon Talk  

I have doubts about PMV in this instance, just because of the circumstances, but on a more general note, any member here who has had actual experience of dealing with a particular condtion could certainly share what they have learned at first hand. That may be that a given symptom is one they have observed with a specific illness, or equally that it does not fit the common pattern. If sufficient information were provided to indicate that a particular condition was a strong probability, I would feel obliged to state that, and I hope other members would not be made to feel inhibited from doing the same.

I think the headache analogy is interesting. Although I am aware that PMV is one of the most common (maybe the most common) causes of a range of neurological signs in pigeons, I was not aware that brain tumors were such a common cause of headaches in humans! 

That is indeed an interesting link, particularly as Avitrol poisoning has come up on PT from time to time, though it would seem doubtful that it is involved in this case.

John


----------



## Charis

John_D said:


> We can really each only speak for ourselves on this board, not for the entire membership of Pigeon Talk
> 
> I have doubts about PMV in this instance, just because of the circumstances, but on a more general note, any member here who has had actual experience of dealing with a particular condtion could certainly share what they have learned at first hand. That may be that a given symptom is one they have observed with a specific illness, or equally that it does not fit the common pattern. If sufficient information were provided to indicate that a particular condition was a strong probability, I would feel obliged to state that, and I hope other members would not be made to feel inhibited from doing the same.
> 
> I think the headache analogy is interesting. Although I am aware that PMV is one of the most common (maybe the most common) causes of a range of neurological signs in pigeons, I was not aware that brain tumors were such a common cause of headaches in humans!
> 
> That is indeed an interesting link, particularly as Avitrol poisoning has come up on PT from time to time, though it would seem doubtful that it is involved in this case.
> 
> John



I stand by my statement John. It's sincere and authentic on my part. 

Members here don't seem to be shy about voicing opinions, nor are they easily intimidated.


----------



## Jay3

John_D said:


> Although I am aware that PMV is one of the most common (maybe the most common) causes of a range of neurological signs in pigeons,
> 
> 
> John


Ya know, PMV is likely thought to be the most common cause of a range of neurological signs in pigeons, simply because of the fact that everyone just assumes that is what they are dealing with, and never actually have the bird checked.


----------



## jameswaller

*pmv-paramyxovirus or pmv-1*



jameswaller said:


> i don,t believe pet stores carry what you really need.??.you do have some antibiotics on hand,,so that puts you ahead of the curve--if-the culprit/bacteria/dies--saving the birds.//.i use clavamox-(AUGMENTIN)- for a wide range of pigeon illnesses--the antibiotic you mention,i hope does the job,,,.is the infected bird in with the group??,,you are correct-in treating all pigeons,,as this disease is contagious--birds cannot fly,will throw up,and may need individual-attention,...if it-spreads..sincerely james waller


pmv-1,,highly contagious-viral infection./.symptoms include,extremely loose ,,watery droppings,,lack of appetite,,ruffled feathers,,poor coordination and sometimes paralysis of wings and legs,..in advanced stages,,birds will show "twisted neck" symptoms.//.a vacinne is not stated,only the failure of a-(la.sota)- vaccine.//.i-treated my affected birds with clavamox-(amoxicillin and potassium) -with good results...i hope you are as successful...sincerely james walleralso,note worthy.//.we are the first line of defense for our critters-,where due to an inconvient weekend,holiday,scheduling problems, extreme distance to any exotic specialist,,whatever-the case,,yes-we have to play god.//.don,t confuse this with elimination of the dvm-specialist..


----------



## Jae.Farah

thank you james . i was wondering where i would get it at , what dosage to give and what stage were your birds in . i mean if its pmv then after readin about it all day "and reading about it all day is what i did" then twisting of the neck is pretty late stage and is hard to cure . 

Johnny


----------



## Charis

jameswaller said:


> pmv-1,,highly contagious-viral infection./.symptoms include,extremely loose ,,watery droppings,,lack of appetite,,ruffled feathers,,poor coordination and sometimes paralysis of wings and legs,..in advanced stages,,birds will show "twisted neck" symptoms.//.a vacinne is not stated,only the failure of a-(la.sota)- vaccine.//.i-treated my affected birds with clavamox-(amoxicillin and potassium) -with good results...i hope you are as successful...sincerely james walleralso,note worthy.//.we are the first line of defense for our critters-,where due to an inconvient weekend,holiday,scheduling problems, extreme distance to any exotic specialist,,whatever-the case,,yes-we have to play god.//.don,t confuse this with elimination of the dvm-specialist..




James...it must have been bacterial rather than PMV because antibiotics don't work on a virus and PMV is a virus.


----------



## jameswaller

*pmv-1,,virus*



Charis said:


> James...it must have been bacterial rather than PMV because antibiotics don't work on a virus and PMV is a virus.


charis,,thank you for your response and you are 100% right.!-i could not believe it myself,,but the symptoms were as stated above,,and i know a few pigeons would be dead without the meds and tlc,,,i have heard antibiotics are for bacteria,s not virus,s--the only exotic dvm was far away-and could not get appt.,, so i tried clavamox,,and the-birds all survived......maybe the meds killed the bacteria responsible for the disease??,and beefed up the immune system...i don,t know...i am happy,happy...sincerely james waller


----------



## Feefo

> Ya know, PMV is likely thought to be the most common cause of a range of neurological signs in pigeons, *simply because of the fact that everyone just assumes that is what they are dealing with, and never actually have the bird checked*.


ROTFL, Jay3, where on earth did you get that nonsense from?  

The statement "that PMV is one of the most common (maybe the most common) causes of a range of neurological signs in pigeons " is based on *statistical information on the cause of death of pigeons established from necropsy* not on "I don't know but I think". 

You can't seriously believe that pigeon PMV was declared a* panzootic *(that is the animal equivalent of a *pandemic*), on the basis of people *thinking* or *assuming* it was PMV? 

Of course PMV won't be the most likely cause in all cases...for instance, if in a specific location there is a cull using Avitrol in progress, then the most likely cause of any neurological symptoms will be poisoning. We have had that scenario on this forum (long before you joined) and believe me, none one argued that it might be PMV!

This is why when someone posts for advice I try to get the full picture - *all* symptoms, location, vaccination history, exposure to infection etc before answering. And I apply the same to any enquiry that is posted , whether the symptoms are respiratory, digestive, dermatological, neurological or any combination of those.


----------



## Jae.Farah

Thank you James . My babies are doing wonderful they're all alive and 3 to 4 days old now, their parents seem to be doing fine and feeding them. I now see less dhiarea and more actual raisen sized poop which is where they need to be, but not all my birds are there yet so i'm going to keep giving them this stuff but at a lower dosage . i hope my bird snaps out of it , she's a very nice German owel whos mate still likes her so that's a good thing and they've produced me beautiful babies before. luckely they didn't have any eggs or babies at this time .


----------



## Jay3

Feefo said:


> ROTFL, Jay3, where on earth did you get that nonsense from?
> 
> The statement "that PMV is one of the most common (maybe the most common) causes of a range of neurological signs in pigeons " is based on *statistical information on the cause of death of pigeons established from necropsy* not on "I don't know but I think".
> 
> You can't seriously believe that pigeon PMV was declared a* panzootic *(that is the animal equivalent of a *pandemic*), on the basis of people *thinking* or *assuming* it was PMV?
> 
> Of course PMV won't be the most likely cause in all cases...for instance, if in a specific location there is a cull using Avitrol in progress, then the most likely cause of any neurological symptoms will be poisoning. We have had that scenario on this forum (long before you joined) and believe me, none one argued that it might be PMV!
> 
> This is why when someone posts for advice I try to get the full picture - *all* symptoms, location, vaccination history, exposure to infection etc before answering. And I apply the same to any enquiry that is posted , whether the symptoms are respiratory, digestive, dermatological, neurological or any combination of those.




I was referring to the many birds that have died while being treated for PMV, that were never really diagnosed through testing, and therefore believed to have died from PMV. 
What I said is true. Many times what appears to be PMV is something else. And in finding a bird with symptoms, without testing, it is impossible to know for sure. It is impossible to know what kind of exposure a wild bird has had, as you couldn't possibly know everywhere he has been, or gotten into. Or even a bird who is owned, but flown. It just makes a lot more sense to get the appropriate tests done at a qualified vet first. Many birds have been treated for PMV when the real cause was overlooked because of not testing. And often times the bird doesn't have to be seen. It can be tested by simply bringing in samples of the droppings. There are many different things that can present the same symptoms. Having the appropriate testing done is the only SURE way to know what you are dealing with, and that suggestion should be made to the poster. What they choose to do with that is up to them, but it should be made clear that to be CERTAIN, the droppings should first be tested. Now, I'm sure even you cannot argue that fact. And without testing, no one is qualified to give a diagnosis. Not even a vet. If a person is unable or unwilling to have these tests done then you do the best you can with what you've got. But people should be made aware that it could be many other causes other than PMV. And yes, many birds have been treated for PMV, and died because of the fact that it was bacterial or parasitic. I'm sure many have died without ever having been truly diagnosed by testing. Sad.
Now if you wish to continue your rude way of shooting at my comments, than feel free, I have said all that I am going to on this matter.


----------



## Feefo

> Now if you wish to continue your rude way of shooting at my comments, than feel free, I have said all that I am going to on this matter.


Um... What a strange thing to say! As far as I remember you have challenged me a couple of times about what I have posted and I have taken the trouble to answer with courtesy and patience...perhaps you could post a link to these "rude shootings" so that we can all judge whether my response has been rude, if that proves to be the case I will gladly apologise!



> I was referring to *the many birds that have died while being treated for PMV, *that were never really diagnosed through testing, and therefore believed to have died from PMV.


Hmmm...none of my PMV rescues have died "while being treated for PMV", and I think the same goes for the other rescuers I know, both on this forum and off. Has that happened to anyone that you personally know of? Can you provide any details to support your allegations? Because it is beginning to look as if you have found a pretty dodgy source of information!!!! No wonder you won't tell us what it is.


----------



## Jay3

Cynthia, why is it that a suggestion or opinion made in a thread is taken by you as challenging you? Don't know what your problem is, but I will again say it. The same symptoms CAN and ARE caused by different things other than PMV. AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE OF WHAT IT IS, IS WITH TESTING.


----------



## John_D

Can we just calm down a little? I have no intention of getting involved in who said what and when, but I am interested in the main subject at hand.

Jay3, I don't believe members with practical familiarity with PMV on PT would dispute that there are symptoms which may be present in birds affected with some other conditions. On the other hand, it would not be correct to say that all symptoms which can occur in PMV are recorded for other conditions. We really need to look at all the information provided, including any physical symptoms, location, and opportunity for infection - as much of the picture as is relayed to us. 

In an ideal situation, whether it be a bird with nervous symptoms or any other kind, then yes, exhaustive tests would indeed be done to pinpoint the issue. But, as we are aware, the ideal siuation is so often not what actually goes down and, as you say, we have to do the best we can with what we have.

I have to say, though, that the statement about it being 'a fact' that 'everyone' assumes they are dealing with PMV does not reflect reality. Even just here on PT we've had a couple of fairly recent threads where, though expressing a concern, the posters did not assume anythng. One of them did actually have tests done by a vet to try to establish cause. I'm also interested in your comment about many birds dying due to being misdiagnosed with PMV - I certainly don't recall anything on PT to support that, so maybe you could tell us where to find the source of this information, as it could be quite instructive for any current or future PT members?

John


----------



## Jay3

You can dance around the issue all you like, and twist words, and try to bate me, but the fact still remains:

The same symptoms CAN and ARE caused by different things other than PMV. AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE OF WHAT IT IS, IS WITH TESTING.
__________
Why do you two seem not to be able to acknowledge that?


----------



## pdpbison

Yahhhhh...


And, assuming one had several hundred dollars to burn, testing for PPMV is at best going to be a week wait, and, to give results which are inconclusive, or, which at best, say merely that clinical pathology details are not able to rule out PPMV.


Who knows what we are dealing with..?


Non-resolution with Antibiotics can also be found with Bacterial or other illness for which a not-correct Antibiotic was being used.


Hard to prove a Virus is a primary agent.


I have had many Pigeons I took to be afflicted with 'classic' PPMV, who ate and self fed well if woth effort, pooped picture perfect Poops, and, Star-Gazed and Peek-a-Boo'd and scooted around backwards like crazy, while in every other way, were and remained Healthy and Strong as a Horse.


PPMV has many faces...

So do other things...


This is an endless Journey...


----------



## Dobato

Hi Johnny,

The link you provided talks about ototoxic antibiotics belonging to the aminoglycoside family of drugs. As mentioned in your link these drugs can have ototoxic side effects, damage to the inner ear, which may cause a bird to have problems with it's sense of equilibrium. In this family are antibiotics such as Gentamicin, Amakacin and Spectinomycin and in the literature are cited for ototoxic cautions when using them. Since the antibiotics you have been administering are in the sulfonamide and tetracycline family of antibiotics, I don't think ototoxicity is a problem induced by the antibiotics you have been treating with. There is mention of tetracycline being included on lists of antibiotics than can have ototoxic effects, but I can find no warnings or cautions for this family of drugs with birds and I myself have never heard of this side effect in a bird being treated with tetracyclines. By the way, the combination of Aureomycin(tetracycline)-Sulmet comes prepackaged together as a combo treatment that can be purchased at many feed and some pigeons supply stores. 

I know you said that you are following the label directions for both drugs, and are reducing dose, but if you could take a minute and post in detail the strength (with the Sulmet the concentration), current plus past dose and frequency of treatment it may be helpful in making completely sure your dosing regime is correct.

Karyn


----------



## Jay3

pdpbison said:


> Yahhhhh...
> 
> 
> And, assuming one had several hundred dollars to burn, testing for PPMV is at best going to be a week wait, and, to give results which are inconclusive, or, which at best, say merely that clinical pathology details are not able to rule out PPMV.
> 
> 
> Who knows what we are dealing with..?
> 
> 
> Non-resolution with Antibiotics can also be found with Bacterial or other illness for which a not-correct Antibiotic was being used.
> 
> 
> Hard to prove a Virus is a primary agent.
> 
> 
> I have had many Pigeons I took to be afflicted with 'classic' PPMV, who ate and self fed well if woth effort, pooped picture perfect Poops, and, Star-Gazed and Peek-a-Boo'd and scooted around backwards like crazy, while in every other way, were and remained Healthy and Strong as a Horse.
> 
> 
> PPMV has many faces...
> 
> So do other things...
> 
> 
> This is an endless Journey...



My suggestion was to test for bacteria and for parasites. Thus ruling them out if that be the case. Because the same symptoms can be caused by bacteria or parasites. It just makes sense to rule them out first, as if it were caused by either of these two things, the appropriate med could be used. Ignoring this possibility, the bird could go untreated by the correct medicine.


----------



## Jae.Farah

Dobato said:


> Hi Johnny,
> 
> I know you said that you are following the label directions for both drugs, and are reducing dose, but if you could take a minute and post in detail the strength (with the Sulmet the concentration), current plus past dose and frequency of treatment it may be helpful in making completely sure your dosing regime is correct.
> 
> Karyn


the sulmet drinkin water solution i'm giving them 2 table spoons per gallon which is what i put out for them every day. i clean out the water despenser and put in a fresh gallon with two table spoons every day for the last 4 days. i also mix in .25 grams of the duramycin 10 which is the antibiotic into that same gallon of water. and that is so i may achieve 400mg of tetracycline hydrochlorie/gallon which is what they recomend on this package. if i'm doin anything wrong please advise. i would be more than happy to admit to being wrong if i am and get the correct dosages and fix my problem (o=


----------



## Dobato

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for your reply. 

I always like to be as clear in my mind as I can when making a suggestion, so it would be helpful to me if I could get clarification on two things. The first one is, is the Sulmet you are using 12.5% or 25%? It should state the concentration on the label. The second is, is this the Duramycin 10 that you are using this one, http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=12247

Karyn


----------



## Jae.Farah

the sulmet i have is 12.5% and the link you gave me doesnt take me to a durmycin )o=


----------



## Dobato

Try the link now.


----------



## Jae.Farah

yep this is it and waw did i get overcharged for it (o=


----------



## Dobato

OK, give me a few minutes.

Karyn


----------



## Dobato

Johnny, what I recommend is that you cut back on the Sulmet to 1 Tablespoon a gallon and that we increase the dose of the Duramycin quite a bit. The recommended dose for pigeons for tetracycline in water is 200mg/L, this means 200mg for each liter of water, or roughly 800mg per gal.

I had a look at the label directions for the Duramycin 10 and it gives directions on how to mix the whole package to make 12.5 gallons, which results in a concentration of 800mg/gal. To go through the math with you, the package holds 181 grams in it of which 10 grams of this are pure tetracycline medicine. Which means that roughly for each 18 grams of this package you get 1 gram (1000mg) of pure med. We know that a teaspoon (a measuring teaspoon used for cooking) contains roughly 5 grams of powdered medicine, so we would need roughly 3 teaspoons of the Duramycin, 3 teaspoons = 15 grams. So, as mentioned, we know that there are 1000mg (1gram) of pure med for every 18 grams of Duramycin therefore, if we divide the 1000 by 18 we get 55.5mg of pure med per gram of Duramycin, so 55.5 x 15 (3 teaspoons)= 832mg. Therefore, you need to mix 3 teaspoons of Duramycin per gallon, do not pack the teaspoon down, fill and use a knife to swipe across to level it.

This may sound like a very big increase but it will work out that for each 1 ounce of water there will be roughly only 6.5mg of pure tetracycline in this ounce, and as a pigeon drinks about 5-8% of its body weight a day, if it does drink an ounce (30mL), it will be getting 6.5mg of tetracycline a day, this is the low end of the dosing range for tetracycline in pigeons, so a very safe dose.

If you have any questions, please ask.

Karyn


----------



## John_D

Jay3 said:


> The same symptoms CAN and ARE caused by different things other than PMV. AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE OF WHAT IT IS, IS WITH TESTING.
> __________
> Why do you two seem not to be able to acknowledge that?


Jay3 - please just read posts properly. I said absolutely clearly: 

_I don't believe members with practical familiarity with PMV on PT would dispute that there are symptoms which may be present in birds affected with some other conditions._

I don't think any reasonable person could misunderstand that I'm just sorry that a calm and polite attempt at reasoned discussion is not acceptable.

*Phil: *I think your comment about time and expense can often be very valid. It's also unfortunate that trying to get a specific bacterial cause if suspected, with a culture I believe, is not necessarily something that can be done there and then. 

John


----------



## Feefo

> The same symptoms CAN and ARE caused by different things other than PMV. AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE OF WHAT IT IS, IS WITH TESTING.


You are absolutely right! The very same thing can be said about any pigeon ailment: canker (there are a number of conditions that can be confused with canker and I will be pleased to provide a list), ornithosis, salmonellosis, worms, poisoning, aspergillosis...in fact apart from injury I can't think of a single condition ever discussed on this thread that stands alone...and even injured pigeons come in with other conditions that caused the injury.

Now perhaps we can go back to these particular pigeons and what can be done for them.


----------



## pdpbison

John_D said:


> *Phil: *I think your comment about time and expense can often be very valid. It's also unfortunate that trying to get a specific bacterial cause if suspected, with a culture I believe, is not necessarily something that can be done there and then.
> 
> John




Hi John, 


Thank you.


I definitely believe in and encourage anyone able to do so, to consider having Cultures done, Blood Work done, and, if one has a lot of Birds all seeming to be ill with the same thing, and, some perished already, have a Necroipsy done too...if one can afford it, and, if one understand, that the results will usually be three or four days away...or more for a Necropsy.


These will not help for Virus agents, far as I know, other than maybe, finding pathology 'not inconsistant' with XYZ...but, for Bacterial or Microbial, they can help decide on what medicines to use.


Now, when results are several days away, and, one has a critical Bird, one pretty well needs to initiate a regimen on some basis of evaluation, and, hope it is good enough for the Bird to still be alive, once the Lab Tests' results come in..!


Anyway...


No doubt, many suspected PPMV Pigeons or other Birds have perished from secondary Bacterial/Microbial/Fungal/nutritional/hydration/Protozoan/etc issues, unbeknownst to the naive, well intended Care Giver, who was told, or accepted, that being a suspected 'Virus', only Supportive Care such as warmth, and shelter, can be done.


So, all in all, "Yes", even if for want of a better diagnosis, we, or our Vets pronounce "PPMV" as the suspected ailment...we do well to consider to note any hints or cues which would suggest Medicinal Regimins or other deferences for accompanying or secondary issues ( which if not treated, can be fatal ).


As for me, rightly or not, if I get a Pigeon with any 'tremors' or 'Star Gazing', or 'Rubbery-Neck' Pecking difficulties, I just figure I may as well assume it is PPMV, keep them in Quarenteen for six weeks or more, and, look in on them several times a day, checking Poops, checking Crop, checking weight, reflexes, everything...and stay on top of them that way.

If I suspect it may actually be a Salmonella or e-coli thing, then we do meds for that...and, sometimes by golly that cleared things up nicely in a few days, or seemed to, so, who knows? Not all 'fits' or 'spasm' things are per-se PPMV...or 'poison'.





Phil
Lv


----------



## plamenh

Well, it is allways good to see the picture of the poop, birds etc. before jumping to any conclusions. Additional info on any smell from poop, crop and so will also help finding out what it may be.
In this case, tetracycline with ACV is best to carry for full time of treatment as it is showing results. 
I would monitor food and water intake and pay special atention on the birds with neurological signs. It may need hand feeding if too weak or unable to feed.
After the course of antibiotic, I would go for three days on cinnamon tea (to firm up poop additionally) and give them probiotics every second day for a week.
Please keep us posted.


----------



## Feefo

> Additional info on any smell from poop, crop and so will also help finding out what it may be.


I wish there was a way of sharing "smell" on line. The only way I can think of is to compare to something else, or to classify as sweet or sour. And yet smell is so often an important symptom!


----------



## Charis

Jay3 said:


> You can dance around the issue all you like, and twist words, and try to bate me, but the fact still remains:
> 
> *The same symptoms CAN and ARE caused by different things other than PMV. AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE OF WHAT IT IS, IS WITH TESTING.*__________
> *Why do you two seem not to be able to acknowledge that*?



I don't understand why this statement, made by Jay can't be answered and why it started such a ruckus. I don't why some of you are taking the question as a personal afront, as it just seems logical.
After all, we all want what's best for the birds.


----------



## Feefo

Charis, try reading post 48!


----------



## John_D

Charis said:


> I don't understand why this statement, made by Jay can't be answered....................


Charis - 

I'm sorry, but there is no way that anybody who read the posts could fail to see that the statement was answered. 

I said, and even repeated, that as far as I'm concerned no-one is disputing that there are symptoms [of PMV] which may be present in birds affected with some other conditions.

(It was also answered by Feefo)

I think a retraction is in order as there is obviously no issue.

Best then that further discussion is on the 'patient'.

John


----------



## pdpbison

Jay3 said:


> My suggestion was to test for bacteria and for parasites. Thus ruling them out if that be the case. Because the same symptoms can be caused by bacteria or parasites. It just makes sense to rule them out first, as if it were caused by either of these two things, the appropriate med could be used. Ignoring this possibility, the bird could go untreated by the correct medicine.



Hi Jay3,



Yes...good mention...


----------



## pdpbison

plamenh said:


> Well, it is allways good to see the picture of the poop, birds etc. before jumping to any conclusions. Additional info on any smell from poop, crop and so will also help finding out what it may be.
> In this case, tetracycline with ACV is best to carry for full time of treatment as it is showing results.
> I would monitor food and water intake and pay special atention on the birds with neurological signs. It may need hand feeding if too weak or unable to feed.
> After the course of antibiotic, I would go for three days on cinnamon tea (to firm up poop additionally) and give them probiotics every second day for a week.
> Please keep us posted.




hi plamenh,



Yup...


Indeed...


And keep 'em well hydrated...a lot of times, sick Birds to not drink enough, or, they demur for the Water being cool/cold...


I know if I have the 'flu or other, little things can really count as for ability to eat, or other comforts.


----------



## Jay3

pdpbison said:


> Hi Jay3,
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...good mention...


HI Phil, and thank you.


----------



## cubanlofts

Dobato said:


> Johnny, what I recommend is that you cut back on the Sulmet to 1 Tablespoon a gallon and that we increase the dose of the Duramycin quite a bit. The recommended dose for pigeons for tetracycline in water is 200mg/L, this means 200mg for each liter of water, or roughly 800mg per gal.
> 
> I had a look at the label directions for the Duramycin 10 and it gives directions on how to mix the whole package to make 12.5 gallons, which results in a concentration of 800mg/gal. To go through the math with you, the package holds 181 grams in it of which 10 grams of this are pure tetracycline medicine. Which means that roughly for each 18 grams of this package you get 1 gram (1000mg) of pure med. We know that a teaspoon (a measuring teaspoon used for cooking) contains roughly 5 grams of powdered medicine, so we would need roughly 3 teaspoons of the Duramycin, 3 teaspoons = 15 grams. So, as mentioned, we know that there are 1000mg (1gram) of pure med for every 18 grams of Duramycin therefore, if we divide the 1000 by 18 we get 55.5mg of pure med per gram of Duramycin, so 55.5 x 15 (3 teaspoons)= 832mg. Therefore, you need to mix 3 teaspoons of Duramycin per gallon, do not pack the teaspoon down, fill and use a knife to swipe across to level it.
> 
> This may sound like a very big increase but it will work out that for each 1 ounce of water there will be roughly only 6.5mg of pure tetracycline in this ounce, and as a pigeon drinks about 5-8% of its body weight a day, if it does drink an ounce (30mL), it will be getting 6.5mg of tetracycline a day, this is the low end of the dosing range for tetracycline in pigeons, so a very safe dose.
> 
> If you have any questions, please ask.
> 
> Karyn


very nice calculations. yes, I calculated the same


----------

