# Shall I bring chicks in cos of Big Crow?



## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi Guys

The chicks are now 9 days old. A big crow is trying to get them. Mum and Dad aren't sitting on them all the time now and the crow sits and waits for them to leave, then he's there but we keep scareing him off, I'm sure he's going to get them if we don't try to do something.

I have bought hand feeding formula. (they only had EMP Superior egg food) They said it was perfect for baby birds. I also rang another shop that said it would be fine to give them. Is that right?

Should I leave them with mum and Dad or not risk it and feed them indoors myself till they can go back out in the dovecote?

Sorry guys if I'm a pain in the bum, Kim x x x


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Kims babies said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> The chicks are now 9 days old. A big crow is trying to get them. Mum and Dad aren't sitting on them all the time now and the crow sits and waits for them to leave, then he's there but we keep scareing him off, I'm sure he's going to get them if we don't try to do something.
> 
> ...


It's NEVER a pain to help someone take care of one of these little guys. I personally, wouldn't give that crow another chance at the babies. If he wants them, he'll get them. You can't watch 24/7 and he's bound to get lucky before to much longer. As far as the food you have, I have no idea. Someone else will have to chime in on that. I'd go get the babies if it was me.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I agree with Renee, if you've got a big crow lurking around and he knows there are babies to be had, he'll find a way to sneak in under your nose....they are VERY crafty and smart. I wouldn't risk it either and would bring them inside to hand feed.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

I've not hand fed babies before though. I'm a bit worried I would hurt them in trying to help them. I've only ever raised puppies from birth.

are they pretty easy to feed?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Once you do it a few times, it becomes easy. I never fed any babies until mom deserted them. Then I made aquick call to my rehabber and picked up the supplies and read all the instructions and started feeding them.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks treesa, I know i would be in very safe hands with everyone here. I'm still not sure whether they have given me the right food though.

it's 16.5% protien 7.5% oil 3.5% fibre and 6.2% ash, I thought the little ones needed a higher protien than that to grow.

This is what it says:
EMP is a broadly based well balanced soft rearing eggfood for cage and avairy birds containing all the needed vitamins and minerals. 
The only instructions are to mix with a little water to a soft crumbly texture and feed 3 times a day (hopeless info on the packet)


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have Harrisons juvenile hand-feeding formula and it has 18 percent crude protein, 11 percent fat, fiber 4 percent, moisture 10 percent.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, since you're in the UK and have a different product than we have in the US, you may want to PM Cynthia (Cyro51) and run this by her.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks Maggie, I don't think this is the right stuff. I will do that x


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I've never tried it but, you can use chick crumbs - mix with boiled water to a paste (thin enough to pass through syringe) and sieve to remove lumps. Sorry can't be any more help - hope you get Cynthia.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks PP, I seem to have had nothing but worry's with my babies. It not enough worrying and checking all the time whether they are warm enough, now this horrid big black bird keeps trying to land and get them. Still not sure what to do about the flipping thing.

I have come to the conclusion that having these birds is more of a worry than the whole family. Me, my husband and our 2 children are all paranoid and watching out the window all the time. 

Still love them though. They are so funny now and spend a lot of the day down on the ground in the garden. Guess what, they found the pond lol. they think it's a gaint bath. I have to get it on film for you all to see. The pond is 4.5ft deep and they throw themselves in  we jumped up to save them the first time but they got out ok. They spread their tails and wings wide and sufe into the pond and as soon a they begin to sink they flap out again, it's so funny to see lol.
Kim x


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Kim, if those babies are in danger from crows, take 'em in. Hoping they'll be all right won't solve the problem.

John


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## stach_n_flash (Mar 15, 2006)

Are you talking about Chickens? becuase you can just feed them chick starter till there 6 months old and then switch them to chick grow till they start laying then go to ... crumble, i think that is the best but there is also pelet and mash. Then scratch is like an ice cream for them.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Kims babies said:


> Thanks PP, I seem to have had nothing but worry's with my babies. It not enough worrying and checking all the time whether they are warm enough, now this horrid big black bird keeps trying to land and get them. Still not sure what to do about the flipping thing.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that having these birds is more of a worry than the whole family. Me, my husband and our 2 children are all paranoid and watching out the window all the time.



You're welcome Kim. I'd be very worried myself if I had birds with babies outside and in a dovecote situation. I know this is a common and much liked setup in the UK, but a fully enclosed loft or aviary would help ease a lot of your concerns. I'm not trying convince you to change how you house your birds, but it would help ease so many fears that you have of other animals getting at your birds.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi Guys

We have realised that the Crow is actually trying to get to the small wild bird feeder that hangs from the underneath of the cote. He seems to be scared of the Doves (mind you Ice is scary at times lol) so he waits for them to leave. Before trying to get food. Doesn't seem like he wants the chicks at all.

Hence the feeder is now moved and he hasn't landed. We haven't moved the chicks yet cos Ice decided to sit with them all afternoon yesterday (he knew we were goona take them) till Spirit threw him out and went in herself.

I am still wary and worried about them. We are in all day today so we are watching to see if the crow goes anywhere near, if he does we will bring the little guys in.

Cynthia replied to me last night, love her. she offer'd to send me some food for them. The shop actually have Chick Crumbs so I will get some. i am so gratefull to Cynthia's help and everyone on here.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Kims babies said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> We have realised that the Crow is actually trying to get to the small wild bird feeder that hangs from the underneath of the cote. *Doesn't seem like he wants the chicks at all.
> *
> ...


Hi Again Kim, 

Don't be so certain that the crow is only interested in the bird feeder. If you put out peanuts in your feeder, they do really like those. They are omnivores by nature, eating pretty much anything though. Baby birds unfortunately are VERY high on their list of what they like to eat and a plump little pigeon squab would make a very nice meal! 

In the summer time here, you always know when a crow is around and even though he's as silent as can be, all the neighbourhood birds will make a HUGE ruckous which gives away his presense. You'll see a great gathering of smaller song birds scolding and flying around the tree that a crow is in raiding nest(s). 

Perhaps your birds Ice and Spirit recognize the threat of this dangerous bird lurking around and will spend more time on the nest now guarding their chicks. But if push comes to shove, a crow will bully them off of their nest to get at their chicks. I'm glad you are still concerned about this because you really should be. Please do keep a very careful eye on the crow(s) and I still recommend bringing the babies in, but you're there, watching and know what is best for you.

Glad to hear that Cynthia was able to help find you the necessary hand raising food stuff if it should be needed


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Last year, with the threat from Avian Influenza, I stopped feeding the wild birds when I noticed that my fantails were spending a lot of time cleaning up under the feeder.....I figured the less contact they had with wild birds the better. 

I've never had a problem with the crows and my squeakers. Actually I like the crows around as they harass any Sparrowhawks which show up. I don't think that a crow would be able to squeeze through the pophole??


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pigeonpoo said:


> Last year, with the threat from Avian Influenza, I stopped feeding the wild birds when I noticed that my fantails were spending a lot of time cleaning up under the feeder.....*I figured the less contact they had with wild birds the better*.
> 
> I've never had a problem with the crows and my squeakers. *Actually I like the crows around as they harass any Sparrowhawks which show up. I don't think that a crow would be able to squeeze through the pophole??*



Hi PigeonPoo, 

I think you were smart to stop feeding the wild birds if you have concerns about avian influenza AND your pigeons were eating the left over seeds. 

Crows are beneficial in the way you mentioned, but they are also notorious egg/chick thieves. As for whether or not a crow could squeeze through the pophole is a good question. How big are those holes exactly? A crow is actually thinner & smaller than it looks, and have more feathers than true body size. Considering that they look quite a bit larger than your average sized pigeon, they actually don't weigh very much more than one at all.

Now for Kim, I went through your previous posts and found out that you had a problem with something stealing eggs before in the past. There are many possibilities here if considering birds. Jays, Magpies, Jackdaws and of course, crows...all the same family of birds. They all eat eggs, but only the larger crows and magpies would be able to dispatch or carry off a pigeon squab and depending on the age of the squab of course.

I also saw a picture of your dovcote before and now after you've removed the screened in section. The screened in section covering the dovecote would have probably detered a crow from entering inside as they are very wary of entering cage type things. A smaller corvid, like a jackdaw or jay would probably have no hesitations though and could have been to blame for the egg thefts earlier.

Just some things to think about and giving my perspectives on what has happened and what might happen. Still and again, you are there dealing with this and see what is going on, so you have to do what you feel is right


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

If you are familiar with a bluebird house, crows can easily reach in the small holes on them and pluck out both eggs and babies. Like Brad mentioned, don't be fooled because they are notorious for stealing from any type of nest. And I still love them to pieces.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Good observations, Maggie! I wasn't sure if they could quite get at the chicks in such smal bird houses. Doesn't surprise me though, they are very slick, crafty and have the natural "tools" to do such things.

However and still, I do want to mention to Kim that even if you think that the crows can't access your dovecote, are too big to enter, or you have the screening up...

Crows can still do a lot of damage to young birds in their efforts to secure a meal. Crows lack the cutting/killing beak and claws of a true predatory bird but in their attempts to feed, they will use all their strength and skill to ensure that their "prey" is immobilized enough to eat and certainly enough to harm them significantly. This involves serious and repetitious, pecking blows to the head of the prey by the crows' very sharp and sturdy beak. I'm a "youtuber" and could provide a visual of a crow attacking, eventually killing and then eating a fully grown (albeit) sick or injured pigeon, but I don't think that is necessary.

Phil (Pdbison) came across a baby pigeon once that was likely attacked by crow(s) and the beak injury itself was unfixable and horrific. Crows and their cousins go for the eyes and head regions first and foremost to debilitate their prey and often leaving them scared and ruined for life, if they survive.

Sorry, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear or read about but, I'm being honest and truthful about these birds. They are a threat and they are very smart about how they do their "business".


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks Brad. The popholes are just over 3" wide (sorry, I'm too old for metric!! ) So, those corvids are not as huge as they appear!! I shall keep a very close eye on the dovecote the next time I let the birds breed.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

here's an update guy's.

The chicks are ok, still with mum and dad but today they didn't feel very warm and the crow is still hanging around. I am getting them in tommorrow morning, I will wait till dad gives them their morning feed then get them out. We just can't relax with them out there and the crow still being around. 

I'm going first thing to get a couple of syringes and bangages for them and will feed them chick crumbs. I hope I'm doing the right thing? I have read ever resource on here and think I will manage to get feeding them right. 

only one question, at 13 days old, will I need to put them on a heat pad in the house or will they be ok just a new little nest? Hubbie will do them a mimick nest box the same as they are in now.

Hope you all agree with what I'm about to do

Kim x x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pigeonpoo said:


> The popholes are just over 3" wide (sorry, I'm too old for metric!! ) So, those corvids are not as huge as they appear!! I shall keep a very close eye on the dovecote the next time I let the birds breed.


Hi Pigeonpoo, 

Those are pretty small holes then, seems even narrow for a pigeon to enter through but I guess yours can and do. I don't think a crow could fit all the way through a hole that size. I guess the worry would be how far they could reach in and if eggs/babies were within grabbing distance.



Kims babies said:


> The chicks are ok, still with mum and dad but today they didn't feel very warm and *the crow is still hanging around.* I am getting them in tommorrow morning, I hope I'm doing the right thing?
> 
> only one question, at 13 days old, *will I need to put them on a heat pad in the house or will they be ok just a new little nest?*
> Hope you all agree with what I'm about to do
> ...


Hi Kim, 

I'm sorry if I've panicked you over the crow, but it really does worry me and since you said it's still hanging around. You really have to do what you think is right for yourself and in this situation. Have you ever seen the crow on the landing board of the dovecote or peering into it?

At the age the babies are now, they don't really need heat but you could place one under the new nest set on low if you want. 

If you feel comfortable with feeding the babies yourself and have the stuff you need, then it shouldn't matter if you bring them in to feed or not then.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi

I'm not sure that what is interested in my chick is a crow after reading all the other posts. This is a jet black bird that is a bit bigger than a magpie. It is about 3 inches biger than my birds and It has a very thick black beak and black legs. It is of the crow family but there are larger versions around here with silver on their heads that stand about 1.5ft tall. Have I got it wrong?
not that it matters now really cos what ever this bird is he does know the chicks are there and still keeps looking at them and landing on the cote.

Would never forgive myself if he got them.

Kim x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Kims babies said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm not sure that what is interested in my chick is a crow after reading all the other posts. *This is a jet black bird that is a bit bigger than a magpie*. It is about 3 inches biger than my birds and It has a very thick black beak and black legs. It is of the crow family *but there are larger versions around here with silver on their heads that stand about 1.5ft tall*. Have I got it wrong?
> not that it matters now really cos what ever this bird is he does know the chicks are there and still keeps looking at them and landing on the cote.
> ...


Hi Kim, 

This bird you describe sounds like either a crow or a jackdaw. Although crows don't have silver on their heads, only the jackdaws do. However, a crow is much larger than a jackdaw, jackdaws have white eyes and are about the same size as a pigeon. Crows have dark eyes, unless they are young, then they are light blue. You also have rooks and ravens there in the UK. The rooks are crow sized, dark eyes but a very long, naked looking beak. Ravens are even bigger than crows or rooks...MUCH bigger.

Crows, ravens and rooks would be your main concern. If it's a jackdaw, they probably wouldn't be a threat.

I think you'll feel better anyway if you bring the young birds in and finish handraising them until they can eat and fly on their own. Keep us posted about this for sure.

Just for future reference and to help you identify them, here is a picture of a crow, rook and a jackdaw.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

This is another one of a jackdaw:


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks Brad, well it is a crow  , now I know I'm doing the right thing, I'm off back out now cos I have the wrong size syringes (only 20ml) and I need 60ml to fit their little beaks in. Have to drive to a Large animal vet to get them.

As soon as I'm sorted I will post some pics ok

Kim x x x


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, I am really glad you're going to take them out. Crows can get their heads in holes and may harm the babies.

Personally, I would put them on a heating pad until their feathers are fully in. They will be having to adjust to a different method of feeding and keeping them warm will help aid in their digestion. Also, do try putting either Benebac powder or plain yogurt (about 1/2 tsp) in the formula. The Benebac comes with its own measuring spoon. Crop failure is the biggest thing you may have to worry about so heading it off at the beginning could help.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for posting the visual aids, Brad.

Without a doubt, a beak like that can do some serious damage.

Thank you for watching over them and brining them in.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Right guys

I have all the bits I needed now. We got them out at 4.30 and they had just been fed (fat little crops), their crops were full of seeds though. I have soaked the chick crumb ready to use. They are deffinately 13 days old and 1 weighs 260g and the other is 250g, both look heathly and happy. Made them a nest in a tidy box for tools (it's just the right size). Thanks Maggie I will get some natural yoghurt in the morning.

Sorry guys I need a few questions answer'd please before they want their first feed from me (god help me)

Read that I shoud feed them 3-4 times a day. Does that mean through the night too? or just during the day?

How many hours between feeds? I know that I need to let their crops totally empty at least once a day.

Is it right that I need to put the soaked crumb through a strainer before giving them? when their parents have started giving them seed with the crop milk.

Thank you all so much, I know me and the little babies are in safe hands with you all

Kim x


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kims babies said:


> Right guys
> 
> I have all the bits I needed now. We got them out at 4.30 and they had just been fed (fat little crops), their crops were full of seeds though. I have soaked the chick crumb ready to use. They are deffinately 13 days old and 1 weighs 260g and the other is 250g, both look heathly and happy. Made them a nest in a tidy box for tools (it's just the right size). Thanks Maggie I will get some natural yoghurt in the morning.
> 
> ...


Kim, I'm really glad they are out. On your questions -

Feed them according to the feel of their crop, not necessarily 3-4 times a day. They are at a really good weight so 3 times a day will probably be just fine. Just wait until the crop goes down, then feed them about 15 cc the first feeding and see how the crop feels. Wait until the crop goes down and feed them another 15 cc, etc. I would also start putting some seed in their bed for them to peck at. After you get the hang of howthe crop feels, you can increase the formula amount. You won't need to feed them during the night. We usually work on a schedule feeding around 7 am, 1 pm, and 7 pm then put them to bed. (Of course, newborns need to be fed smaller amounts, more frequently.) I would just go easy the first couple of days on the amount though until you can determine their true feeding needs. Also, weigh them every day.

I have read on different posts that the crumbs should be strained but since I'm not familiar with that product I'd rather someone else speak to that.

Good luck.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for the photos Brad. My 'crows' are, in fact, Rooks!! I was told that one sees crows in ones or twos, any more than that and they are probably rooks. The babies can keep out of harms way - there is plenty of space well away from the doorhole and any intruding beaks!! Yes, the holes are small widthwise but are quite a bit higher. The birds are much slighter than my homing pigeons. When I first handled them I thought that they had gone light but, it's just the way this breed is.

Kim,
I thought that the straining the chick crumbs was to ensure the mixture would pass through the syringe without 'bunging' it up.

Good Luck Kim


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm not sure about straining the food either PP  

mainly because when I got them out of the nest Dad had just filled their crops and I could feel lots of little seeds in them. 

I don't know whether I should strain the food so they have smooth porridge or whether I should leave it with texture and gradually add seed to it like dad was already giving them. Will strain it till someone who has fed with this chick crumb comes on to help us.

kim x

P.S Saw my surgeon today and have been told I've healed extremely quickly and he's given me permission to drive again  Feeling much better now too


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, that is terrific news about your health.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

Please help I've spent ages trying to get these babies to take food but they just will not.

I have a large syringe, full of food that is like smooth wet toothpaste, with a bandage over the end with small cross slit in it. Their crops still feel empty, 
5 mls have gone but I think they flick'd that amout over me.

If I can't get food in them, I will be forced to return them to mum and dad and I don't want to have to do that.

Please help am I doing something wrong? they are looking for food Nuzzling with their beaks and peeping) but won't take it from me with the syringe.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Kim, I see you're on (thought you'd be in bed by now) and I have answered your PM. You may have seen this link by Cynthia but I'll post it again just in case. http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


Sorry I was not on until now. As I mentioned in the PM, they won't starve overnight so you just go to bed and try again in the morning. They may be much more receptive then.

Phil is very good with this method also so hopefully he will see this and respond. I'll PM him anyhow. Like I mentioned, we use a syringe with a nipple attached and while we have used the method you're using, I was not comfortable with it and went back to the way we have always fed babies. It is all a matter of getting used to feeding them - no matter what method you use.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


mr. squeaks and Lady Tarheel had both recommended me to your thread here...sorry I was not here already, just been one busy boy.

Anyway, I have never had any Columbiform infant or Baby or juvenile ( out of hundreds certainly, ) who was not happy to eat ( or if injured or dim, then at least initially drink ) from me usually in the first five minutes, or ten at most after getting here. Sometimes I do not get to it immediately, but my point is, they are entirely willing in every instance I have ever had, to drink or eat, "IF" things are done in their terms, and according to their sensibilities and reason.

If you like, I would be happy to discuss this with you, so far as my method, but it is full of "details" one needs to respect, without which one has merely confusion or botched efforts.

This method permits the Baby or Juvenile to be an active agent by letting them feed or eat in a natural way, which is sufficiently similar to how their Parents fed them, for them to be very happy and enthused with it from the onset, and, it permits whole Seeds to be fed them, according to their age or fittingness...when, and 'if' they feel recognised and interacted with in their terms, for them to be comfortable with accepting a 'new' parent.

I have some info I had written down awhile back which I cold send you in a regular e-mail, should you write to me in my reguilar e-mail, which is -

[email protected]


Basically, what you will need, are some regular old fashioned soft rubber people-baby-bottle Nipples, or Teats as may be...(just the Nipples/Teats, no bottle... and the clear ones I think are best, but any, so long as soft, will do...)

And, various various ingredients to make formula out of ( in addition to, or instead of, whatever store bought powder you may in fact have on hand).

And...here is a link to some images of the ritual with a Baby Dove, who had suffered some privations and injury prior to my getting them, which also shows something of the Nipples ( or Teats ) and how I remove the 'flange' for them to be used, as well as making smaller sizes of them for the tiny Beaks ( yours of course have large Beaks compared to Mouring Doves)...but it shows well enough the use of the Nipple ( or Teat ) and their amenibility to it being held for them to eat from the 'hollow' side of.

A 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' when healthy and so on will tend to 'Nuzzle
and push and assert a good deal when being fed...flapping their Wings, honking, squeaking and generally sowing a loot of enthusisam and assertion for meal time.

If they are discouraged me being offered formula or food they do not like, this enthusiasm will turn to frustration and frantic over-activity, or, similarly, if frustrated by method. Otherwise, what should be, is a healthy enthusiasm, assetvieness, wacky happy excitement, and satisfaction.


See - 

http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


Happy to discuss some basics 'here' but you would definitely do best to have me send the more detailed text which is way too long for a posting context...


Best wishes..!

Keep them "warm"...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Kims babies said:


> I don't know whether I should strain the food so they have smooth porridge or whether I should leave it with texture and gradually add seed to it like dad was already giving them. Will strain it till someone who has fed with this chick crumb comes on to help us.
> 
> kim x



Hi Kim, 

I realize that you're probably in bed right now but I just wanted to suggest that you do leave some texture in the mixture and yes, to gradually start adding soaked (SMALL) seeds to this for them. They have been getting fed seeds from the parents by now, not just thin, soupy crop milk. You do want to have fibre and solids in the formula at this point because they are old enough to digest this. Also, if you notice a change in the poops, try not to panic either. They will likely change a bit and because of the change in diet but this is normal until they get accustomed to the switch.

I know it's worrying for you, but as Maggie has mentioned, they will not starve overnight. Please do allow for the crop to empty in between feedings as well. 

I'm sure today will be a new day and hopefully they will be more hungry and want to feed. A shot glass or larger nipple is Phil's method of feeding youngsters and this allows them to slurp up the contents right out of the either of these. He'll probably be on to give you some tips as well.

Try not to panic yet and you may have to do a little experimenting as Maggie sugggested as well


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

pigeonpoo said:


> Thanks for the photos Brad. My 'crows' are, in fact, Rooks!! I was told that one sees crows in ones or twos, any more than that and they are probably rooks. The babies can keep out of harms way - there is plenty of space well away from the doorhole and any intruding beaks!! Yes, the holes are small widthwise but are quite a bit higher. The birds are much slighter than my homing pigeons. When I first handled them I thought that they had gone light but, it's just the way this breed is.
> 
> Kim,
> *I thought that the straining the chick crumbs was to ensure the mixture would pass through the syringe without 'bunging' it up*.
> ...


Hi PigeonPoo, 

You're welcome for the photos and thanks for explaining the pophole sizes more and how your pigeons are smaller than homers...makes sense now

I do believe you're right about the reason for straining and this also makes sense to me. I think that as long as Kim's syringe or whatever utensil she uses doesn't get clogged up, than the crumbs don't need to be strained.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,



Since I gather your two youngsters are both 'Nuzzleing' and asking you to feed them, at least that part of potential hurdles is already nicely crossed.

As you have observed, in Nature, at this age, they are fed primarily such Seeds and maybe bits of fresh Greens also, as their parents find to graze on and to bring back to their Babys in their Crops.

Also, the parents of course bring back Water and give generous drinks to their Babys, or, feed them rather slushy, Water-Seed meals instead, depending in the aridity or humidity of the clime.

They of course can do this much better than we can, especially when it comes to feeding their Babys larger kinds of whole Seeds, or semi-hydrated whole Seeds. 

So, it falls to us to then find some happy compromise or other, and, as Maggie mentions, there are many methods ( few of which oblige whole Seeds of any kind, however, and my method only obliges smaller Whole Seeds and not whole large kinds ) which qualify as successful, and we all end up with our own, more or less.

As for mine, or even in general, a couple basic things to bear in mind, are - 

Their formula ( for those the age of yours, ie: more or less two weeks old ) needs to be rather Watery-Soupy, as they are drinking-gobbleing it in effect, and this also allows them enough Water to not need too many drinks between meals for the contents of their Crops to remain nicely soft and "slushy", as well as that they will usually not accept the formula if it is not rather 'Soupy'.

Their formula needs to be served 'warm' ( even as the food from their parents is served at something only slightly less than their parent's body temperature) , and for 'warm' to mean just about the same as your own actual Body temperature...for which, I use the underside of my wrist as guide - if the formula feels like "no temperature", feels neither toward hot or cool, then it is close enough to 'right'.

When you offer Water between meals, it also must be this temperature, and is best if from the cold Tap and gently heated in a pan till right, then spooned or poured into the Nipple ( Teat ) or, into a small Glass or little pre-warmed Bowl of some kind...

One must NOT warm their formula in a microwave...nor attempt to mix it with warm tap water to make it warm.

Rather, one makes their formula the night before, by adding all dry ingredients together and putting such Water over it to cover it with half an inch to spare of Water sitting in top, and does not this 'stirr' till morning, keeping it covered in the refrigerator till then, to ) stirr and mix their formula in a Tea Cup or similar item, in a Saucepan of Hot Water which is no longer on the flame...stirring the formula till it becomes uniformly the right amount of 'warm'...and or also uniformly mixed, if it is the first occasion of being warmed and used that day.

Subsequent uses merely require warming and stirring since it will be already mixed of course, and, refrigerated and covered between uses, and discarded that night when one makes a new batch for the next day.

There are earnest and real 'reasons' for ( all of ) this, which to elaborate or explain would make this already tediously long post unbearable worse, so, if you would, just believe me that this is a reasoned matter with nothing in any way being arbitrary or indifferent.

The easiect way to do this, to warm the formula, is to boil a half inch or so of Water, remove from the heat...add about a scant inch of cool Water, and set the Tea Cup of formula in it then, and stirr the formula in the Tea Cup thoroughly to uniformly warm it...

In Winter time especially, this allows you to bring the Saucepan of heating Water with the Tea Cup holding the formula in it, to where the Babys are, so the formula does not cool off too much while you are feeding them various successive helpings.

I use the hollow side of a soft rubber baby-bottle Teat ( or Nipple ), into which I spoon enough formula for it to be about 7/8ths full, so when they insert their little or not-so-little Beak, it does not flow over...

One gently guides their Nuzzleing Beak into the Nipple, which one is holding tilted toward them, and at about their mid Crop height...and, if possible, one follows their lead in how one brings the Nipple up or down or toward them more or away a little, in the rythum of when they swallow puling their head and neck 'in' then, as they estend their neck to resume eating...this has an easy simple rythum to it, which is similar to what they do when being fed from their parent's throat....which of course has something of a sort of pumping motion as the parent brings 'up' food, and, concurrently, the Baby swallows to suit the cadance...

All this is simple of course...or no worse than driving a car anyway...

Lol...

Hope this helps...!

Lastly, and this is for real, too...

What I always do, for any new-arrive Baby...and this is not only for the present, but for the later on times as well, for them TO know when I am inviteing them to be fed or to drink - is to invite them to eat or drink by two gestures, which occur at the same time, or one gesture begins first, and while it is happenning, the second begins -

This first gesture is a vocal one, where I make a sound which is a sort of "Ooooo! Ooooo! Oooo!, deep in my throat, so it is rather low and slow, not like an Owl, but rather like saying "Ooooo!" in pleasant exclaim of anticipation, only deeper...

This when done right to them means a great deal...and they will respond with interest, since it means in effect, "I would like to feed you", or something along those lines anyway.

This then, when begin at the first, will also work to call then later when they are new Fliers, and one may need to get them to come down from the roof or other places. If one has consistantly used this sound when inviting them to eat, they will come to eat once flying.

The second gesture, ( for those not alreadyu Nuzzleing) begins as one says the "Ooooo!", is to dip one's finger tips of one hand into some warm water, and to gently, comeing to them from on low, from below their eye level...to gently reach 'up' then and massage the root area of their Beak.

Probably, it is best if one nods conspicuously while doing either of these.

This will get them Nuzzleing, if they were not Nuzzleing already, but at any rate, it conveys to them that one is for sure offering to feed them, and then, of course, one either gives them a drink of ( always, "tepid" ) Water, or, of formula...

"What" to feed them, we shall save for the next round, if you have not glazed over yet from all this text...

Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


Some images of feeding a rather young Baby -

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU


Too, useful especially in Winter time if cool or cold indoors...or an un-heated version may be used in Warm Seasons (only the first three images apply on this album...)

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/512124277uXlSSR

Pigeons are of course Ledge and Cliff dwelling Birds, whose Babys and Juveniles know quite well to abide what they construe to be their Nest, and, the Nest's ajacent Ledge area, if any.

Hence, it is not necessary to constrain them in any way, as if they were 'puppies' who would wander off, or as if they needed to be constrained or kept in anything ot stay put - they will stay put so long AS what one provided for them makes sense in their terms.

One makes their Nest in a form which they will recognise, and over the edge of which they will politely point their little butts to poop.

The 'Squeaker Warm House', being a simple small to medium cardboard Box, set on it's side, in which one has an Alectric Heating Pad with a Towell layed on it, and on "that" towell, one has a small Cake Pan or other shallow thing, with some small amount of soft rumple cloth in it, for their Nest as such. On which Box one drapes some cloth for a front curtain, in this case, a Shirt whose collar forms the doorway.

This then on a table or other elevated area, makes for a snug and safe feeling and unambiguous Nest, keeps them free of drafts, and allows something for a 'Ledge' ( or front yard, ) where once old enough, they will some out on to to preen or lay around...or, will come out when called, to be fed....and then they will go back in by themselves after being fed.

Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Just a thought Kim.......if you really cannot manage to feed your babies......when I had my babies inside, I noticed that within ten minutes of putting them back in the dovecote the parents would go to them and feed them. I also notice that my homers feed their babies _every_ time I top up their food containers.........so, would it be possible to keep the babies inside, put them back in the cote, feed the parents then _watch_till they are fed, before bringing them back inside to safety?? I'm not sure , you'd certainly have to repeat this several times a day to ensure they get enough food. 

Great news from your surgeon - just in time for Christmas too.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Well a Huge thankyou to everyone. I've cracked it ! 

I still had a huge problem feeding them at 7.30am today and was getting very concerned as they were so hungry, managed to get about 5mls in them but that was all. they just pulled away all the time. Went to dentist and when i came back they were peeping like mad.

So I try'd again, mixed half seed and half crumb (alot wetter than before) and they just went nuts, flapping and peeping and eating the lot. I ended up crying with relief, they were so happy. Gave them 30mls each but they still kept asking for more, doing their little jigs and peeping so I gave them another 10 mls each. Their crops looked like little boobs but still soft. so i guess they need 40mls each now? God what a mess they make though eating so they both had a nice wash, pooped, try'd to preen themselves (ah bless em) and went to sleep.

Been out again and I've just come back, they were cuddled up together, when I looked in to check them and spoke to the dog they jumped up and started peeping so they now think I'm mum  .

I'm so over the moon they are happy and fed now and I could never have done it without all your help.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

To, Maggie, Phil, Brad and Pigeonpoo

You are all wonderfull, I'm truelly gratefull. You have given me so much advice and and help in your last few posts. I have put all your advice together, threw it all around lol and managed to feed my babies without a problem.

A huge christmas peep, flap and hug coming your way from Mistletoe and Ivy lol too. x x x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Kim, 

I'm glad you've got things under control and I know how worried you were about getting the hang of feeding them. They are at a good age to be hand feeding and are old & strong enough for you to be feeding them. If they were just tiny chicks, the situation would be a lot more worrisome and scarey!

The good news is, you won't have to do it for too much longer and as Maggie suggested, keep seeds around them all the time, just in case they get the urge to start pecking early on their own. It's important that they are exposed to seeds early and start to play around with pecking them and feeling them in their mouth. If they haven't started showing any interest by the time they are 3 weeks old, start encouraging them to peck by using a pencil or your fingers to peck and pick up seeds in front of them. At around this age too, you can begin to offer them water in sturdy, untippable and deeper cups or dishes. They usually catch onto drinking on their own pretty quickly and easily.

You're welcome for any help I've given and I was glad to assist since this is a first for you. I'm also glad that the crow didn't have an opportunity to get his beak on the babies while they were growing.

Keep us posted and don't be afraid to ask questions and however many you need


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Kim, I am so happy you're happy and that your babies are happy!  

Just a caution though. 40 cc may be a leetle too much to begin with so watch their poops and crops very closely. As a matter of fact you may need to feed them only 2 times today. Mind you, I am always on the conservative side and I know many rehabbers do feed theirs more than I do. 

Isn't it great fun having those little babies all over you? Would love to see pictures when you get a chance.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Oh, phew!! That's a relief.

I'm not sure that I've been much help but, tell you what, you will be able to help me now, if ever I end up hand feeding!!  

YES!! Photos please!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Kim and all

I have used Exact so long that I don't read instructions anymore but decided to check the package today because we are currently hand feeding an adult and had a question about giving grit along with the formula. I didn't find the answer but saw their website address and that they have a video on hand feeding.

It was pretty interesting even though it featured mainly parrots and cockatiels but the same info would apply to pigeons. For one thing, I had always been taught to insert the syringe from the bird's left side, angled to the right and this explains why. Now, what I don't know is whether the esophagus is the same on a pigeon as a parrot?

It wouldn't play on Windows Media Player for some reason but I did get it to play on Realplayer after juggling things a bit. Here is the link:

http://kaytee.com/companion_animals/birds/hand_feeding/


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Here are some pitures I managed to take earlier, god they let you know when they ant feeding.








































I fed them at 12 noon and gave them 30mls, by 5.30pm their crops were empty and they sure let me know so I gave them another 30mls but they still wanted more. didn't give it to them cos maggie said to be carefull giving them that much (thanks maggie). By 8.30pm they were shouting again, checked their crops and they'd emptied so off I went again warming food and seed. they peeped and peeped till they had had 40 mls then settled down. Now sound asleep for the night i hope. Am I doing right giving them food as soon as they start shouting (very loudly too) and their crops are flat? Is 40 mls ok as long as their crops are still soft?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Kim, instant love for me! They are adorable and it looks like you have the feeding down pat. Why, they don't even have formula all over them! Mine did when I tried this method. 

I really don't think the ones we've raised cried for food (songbirds will) but they will wake up when they're hungry and get restless. I don't see anything wrong with giving them 40 cc so long as their crops go down. You are doing a fantastic job and I know you're loving them to pieces.

Thanks so much for the great pictures.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Kim,

Aren't they adorable, and they look nicely stuffed. It looks like you are doing just fine with the feeding.

Thanks for sharing the pics.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The babies are just adorable, Kim! Looks like you are doing a fine job of being a pigeon Mom!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,



Glad to see and hear that everything is going nicely now..!

40 cc is of course a hefty meal for Pigeons of this age, but if they are putting it away and are happy with it, and it is them eating it ( rather than being put into them, ) I expect all is fine with that..!

Grit is good to add when the feeding method allows, and I usually add it to formulas. Canary or Finch Grit is rather fine, which mught be best for some situations.

"Adorable" does seem to be the word on everyone's mind for these two!

Totally adorable..!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Kim, 

Your babies are precious! Thanks for sharing these photos with us and keep us posted daily and if you can, monitor their weight as Maggie suggested.


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi Everyone, 

I will post more pics tonight ok. They are both doing fine, very happy and stuffed from their 8.30am feed. When I walked in the living room this morning they were both hanging their heads over the nest looking out and got all excited to see me, I'm loving every minute of this guys  

1 Question I have just thought of. How the hell Will I re-introduce them to living out in the dovecote?  do I just put them out there for a couple of hours each day till they can fly, obviously not until they have some proper feathers though.

Kim x


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Awww, I want some!!  They are soo precious. I especially like the photo of the one feeding with his eyes closed.......BLISS...


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi PP

I can honestly say, this is the best thing I've had to do, I just love em. They are so entertaining and sweet to watch with their own little personalities already and they just get soooo excited when I get them out and they know food is coming.

Kim x


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You have to be careful putting them out when they're too small to defend themselves. You'd need to do it with them in their own cage so that others can't bother them. Even almost full grown chicks can get pecked up pretty badly if they accidently get into someone else's territory. Another way to do is only take them out while you're there to supervise.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kim,


One can indroduce them to the flock ( domestic flock or feral flock) in little social forays once they are say three to four weeks old, BUT one stays with them, stays close to them, and supervises. One does not intrusively 'hover' but one is definitely "there" and close by so they can see you ( and they WILL keep looking to make sure you are 'there', too).

This is in effect what their parents do, once the youngsters are flying, anyway...which is to feed them in-the-field, amid feral or whatever others of their kind, to watch over them, and to shoo away any bullies should need arise.

One never puts youngsters amid stranger-others-adults on their own, as they can get hurt or seriously injured if some bully attacks them...they will tend to merely cringe and pull 'in' and not escape, even though in theory they could escape.

So, one supervises them untill they are old enough, and one sees they are able to walk-the-walk and assert themselves confidently.

I have had fledgleings I was supervising out in a foray with the feral flock, who when some bully came up and was pecking at them, the fledgeling beecame dramatically indignant, Wing-Choped and pecked assertively at the 'bully', even though he was twice their weight, and the bully skeee-daddled away...

Sure makes you proud!

"Then" you know they will do allright ( even ) if you are not 'there'...but not untill then..!


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Kims babies (Oct 13, 2006)

Oh Don't worry I will be watching when I slowly put them back out for an hour at a time, for now though i will just enjoy them.

They are doing really well , their feathers are beginning to open now so they look sweeter. 

They are gaining about 20g per day is that about right ? they now have 40mls 4 times a day too. would have more if I let them mind.

They seem very happy and always pleased to see me. My little 8 year old daughter has a special bond with them and she can't even be in the room without them wanting to come out. She spends most of her time cuddling them and singing to them and they peep at her ever time she stops, it's lovely to watch.


Kim x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Kim, 

I'm so happy to hear that things are working out so well for you and the youngsters

20 grams a day seems to be more than reasonable weight gain progress. If they are eating 40mls at a sitting and the crops are emptying fully, then 4 times a day might be just fine for them. They need all the nutrition and food they can get while they are growing so fast right now. When they are around 25-30 days old, and if they aren't pecking/eating on their own, I would suggest to cut back on the feedings significantly. You want them to be encouraged to try to eat on their own and when they are hungry. A full pigeon is a lazy pigeon and one that might not be so eager to try on it's own

How old are they now? Any pecking interest going on with the seeds you leave around them? Take some more pictures for us when you can and post them. I'm sure this experience is such a delight for both you and your daughter.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Great Job Kim*

HI KIM, I have not posted before as this is not an area that I am good at. The members that helped you are some of the best when it comes to hand raising young pigeons, and I can see that you have learned quite well,just look at those fat little piggies.. I would like to wish you and your family the best holiday and a very HAPPY HEALTHY New Year.  .GEORGE


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