# URGENT blood in poop 3 weeks old pigeon



## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I have two little babies in my balcony Mother feeds them Just yesterday i saw red feces and a little red in urine. Could it be not blood They are active and go around I keep my balcony extra clean I do not know how this happened .There are small flies also in their wings Tried to move away but is difficult PLEASE HELP ME


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

This are pictures


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm,



If it was me, and I had this Pigeon...

I would have them in a Cage for containment and observation and safe keeping...Cage bottom covered in white Toweling or Paper Towels.

I would start them on Metronidazole...and, Enroflaxyn and probably I would keep the Medistatin handy.

I would only allow them the very smallest whole Seeds, like Finch or Canary Mix kinds, and, if any doubt as for those passing well, I would move onto a formula or all liquid diet instead, tubed in, untill the problem is cured.


Metronidazole ( for Canker ) tablets ( 60 mG size Tablets ) and Enroflaxyn ( antibiotic ) Tablets can be had from Jedds, Siegals, Global, Vita King, or others via Mail Order, by calling or ordering on-line.

If you have a friendly Vet you can appeal to, time is likely of the essence here, and they could set you up with these Meds.


Apple Cider Vinegar, three Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water, would be good for their drinking water for the next week or so.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Thank You Where can i find these medicines cause on line ordering takes time Can i use normal tablets like flagyl (metronidazole) for Baytril tablet what is the equivalent ? or they are specialized fro pigeons Can i find them in pet shop
I use exact for feeding can i continue


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Can i use flagyl (metronidazole) for human and what dose What is the equivalent for Baytril tablet Enroflaxyn ( antibiotic ) ANYONE


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Flagyl...should be the same as Metronidazole.

Dose would be about 45 - 60 mg every 24 hours ( or half dose every 12 hours ) for a medium large Pigeon.


Dose for the Enroflaxyn I have here, is one Tablet for average size Pigeon every 24 hours...one Tablet having 7.5 mg Enroflaxyn proper.



Be very watchful of the Crop, and how well it is passing...and of not allowing any but the very smallest Seeds...this syndrome is associated with Crop blockage, and can then become fatal or complicated or both.

If inflamitory issues cause the Crop to slow too much, Candida can result ( 'Medistatin' though the ACV-Water will pre-emptively help somewhat against that, ) which then blocks things even worse.



Where are you located?


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Could it be no blood One doctor told me on the telephone that it could no blood cause is too red could be something that their mother ate


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Also found this when their mother came


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, thank you for your concern for these birds.

I may be in agreement with the doctor you spoke to. The color of the droppings is too evenly consistent in color for it to be frank blood, this the bright red blood like we see from a bleeding wound or other injury. In pigeons we see frank blood in droppings mostly associated with reproductive problems and GI infections. If the bird where bleeding higher up in the GI system, this blood would turn dark/black looking as it was digested by the GI tract and would not look red at all. So the consistent color indicates, at least IMHO, that whatever it was evenly ground up by the ventriculus and the passed through the intestines to be processed and the droppings ended up as they look now.

The photo of what the mother left this morning does not look like actual droppings to me, but looks like she has vomited/regurgitated some of her crop contents which as tinged pink/red in color, and I have no idea what this could be, but obviously she did not what it in her.

If you could put them out some clean water and food it may help help more quickly flush their systems to get a better idea just where they are at, but keep a close eye on them in case what they have ingested makes them take a turn for the worse.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

So this is fresh blood from low in the GI Could it be canker I give them exact Do i have to seperate from their mother


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

No George, what I am saying, is I don't think this may be blood, but something the mother has feed the baby, based on the thoughts I laid out and now the mother regurgitating pink/red crop contents. No meds just yet, lots of fresh food and water and reassess after their systems have been flushed.

I have to run for the day, Phil may have some thoughts on this.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohhhhh, Lol...probably from Mom eating dry Cat Food Kibble...

That'll give them the tannish 'pink' fecal matter and staining which bleeds out.

Maybe see if you can provide decent Seeds for these Pigeons, so they will not be having to eat someone else's Cat food in desperation.

Does not appear to be Blood.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Thank you so much I feel not alone with you all trying to keep them healthy .I was planning tomorrow to buy medicine metrinazole and norflaxyn to give them .So should i seperate from their mother and give them exact and small seeds .thank you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It appears that the only thing 'wrong' may be that the parents are eating dry Cat Food out of someone's Cat food bowls somewhere.


If you can provide good Pigeon Mix Seeds, the Parents will probably leave off forraging on Cat food.

It is dangerous for Birds to eat that junk out of Cat Bowls, since the Cat's saliva can contain germs which may sicken the Bird...as well as that dry Cat food often containes meat products and eancid fats and so on, which would be bad for Pigeons.


If you wanted to have Medicines on hand, just in case you ever need them, nothing wrong with that.


As for this youngster, or these youngsters, as far as I can tell, there is no problem other than wrong diet, and, the odd looking 'pinkish-ten' fecal matter which the dyes used in dry Cat food causes.


If you like, keep posting images of the poops...but please do your best to have the images in focus..!

Lol...


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The same despite i isolated them and feed them with exact Might be blood


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Does not look like Blood to me.


The dye from the Cat food can take a while to clear out.


Urates however, do not look good there...but, hard to say how-come.


Many types of Cat food are not a good thing for Pigeons.


If you have Metronidazole, may as well give a weeks regimen for 'Canker' and see if the Urates improve.

Ditto with 'Enroflaxyn'...( they might have got some Bacteria from the Cat's saliva getting into the Cat food their Parents - in my opinion - had been forraging).


These youngsters are plenty old enough to be learning to peck, if you have say, the smallest kinds of whole Seeds ( Canary Seed, Finch Seed, the tiny kinds of whole Seeds ) to offer them ( 'peck' with your crook-d index finger, and or get them 'nuzzling' and guide their Beak into a deepish Tea Cup or the likes of the small whole Seeds )...I assume their Crops are passing things well...but keep alert to that.


If you are comfortable feeding 'formula' ( never microwave it - warm to tepid in a Pan of warm Water ) may as well stay with that for a week, just to insure their Crops can keep passing easily.


But anyway, Urates are not 'right', so, something is amiss there...and the Metronidazole and Enroflaxyn might just straighten things out.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I do not know what to do with their mother She comes and they ask fo her Should i let their mother feed them


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, have you begun to provide wholesome right kinds of Seeds and fresh clean Water for the Mom and or Dad?


Usually it is the Dad who would still be feeding the youngsters at this stage.


If you can provide him with good Seeds and Water, and he is willing to continue feeding the youngsters, place them where he can get to them, and let him Feed them once or twice a day, being mindful not to let this continue once the youngsters could get away from you!


For now, I think it would be prudent, for them to be on the meds for a Business Week or six days anyway...


If you play it right, you can get them over this 'm-a-y-b-e' illness phase, and still let dad finish things with their upbringing and for them to fly with him to learn to forrage and so on.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I provided them food for both parents and small but i think there will be a battle with other pigeon How fast a 4 wks old pigeon will learn to fly I did not find medicine On monday i will give them


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

they all eat they are active


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Maybe much smaller, deeper Cups or the likes for the Seeds and Water...placed where only the Parents will see and find them when they come to feed the youngsters.


Water Bowls need to be deep enough ( 3 - 4 inches ) for them to still drink once it gets a little lower.


Diameter does not need to be large...flat bottom Coffee Cups can work fine.


Where are you located?


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, pigeons are creatures of habit and although you now have offered not only room & board, but meals as well, they parents may still visit wherever they are getting the kibble from and also eat from there, so you may get the red in the dropping for a while, glad Phil figured it out.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

You were absolutely right It went off thi red dye from their poops. I have sent fotos to one doctor specialized in birds and he couldnt conclude if this was blood or not So YOU were right even diagnosis resulted from just a photo. but i think about urine infection cause one small is feeling dizzy most of the time and close eyes and urine is dense and white yellow I will start tomorrow medicine but the problem is that parent learn them to fly Should i isolate them for a while to give medicine or let parents If they are infected and fly away this can be danger
THANK YOU

I live in hellas Greece
CRETA


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

One fly with parents the other is sick could not fly. What to do the small is sitting close eyes breath deep and his urine is like that (foto) I try to feed exact but does not want it seems difficult for him to eat i wait along time from one spoon to the other but does not want eat with difficulty i should force him I gave him flagyl sirop one dose 1.5 ml I give a little water what should i do i keep him in home


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I am a little confused, yesterday you said they all are eating and active, but this morning you say one is ill, did this happen overnight? The Metronidazole you gave the one you think is ill, what strength is it (how many mg per mL), and how did you administer the 1.5mL to him, did he cough of choke at any time, when you say you try to feed Exact, what do you mean, do you know how to tube feed, just how are you trying to feed him? Does the bird that you think is ill ever "helicopter", this is where they flap their wings and spin a bit getting their wing muscles strong enough to fly. How many breaths in a minute does he breath? It's kind of like taking our pulse, where you will count in a minute's time how many times his chest moves up and down ( this must be done when resting, not after any stress or exercise). Will you be able to get some other antibiotics, such as Cipro (Enrofloxacin-Baytril) or Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Septra-Bactrim)?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The small one these days was acting a little down in comparison with the other . fealing a little dizy but today it is not absolutely ok. Today they fly with their parents away from the balcony but the small one returned with his father to the balcony and stay down for a long time not feeling well in time other bird brother was flyin g with his parents fully active The small one seemed so weak. He couldnt even move. I let the small for long time but could not folloe parents. So i decided to bring home and give medicine .I feed exact to his moth not crop small quantities long time I dont know what to do but for sure he seem sick to me He bares open eyes and stay at the same pointWhat to do


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I bought one sirop flagyl 5 ml 200 mg benzoato de metronidazol equivalent to 125 mg metronidazol .I used a syringe. I will get tomorrow ernoflaxyn Should i stop metronidazole ?


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

temperature i feed exact is 40 i give a little warm water after feed


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I bought one sirop flagyl 5 ml 200 mg benzoato de metronidazol equivalent to 125 mg metronidazol .I used a syringe. I will get tomorrow ernoflaxyn Should i stop metronidazole ?


George, from what you posted, it seems the form liquid Metronidazole you have is equal to 25mg/mL, If my reading is right, you have given him the equivalent of 37.5mg of Metronidazole, with the 1.5mL you have given him, enough for 24hrs, and we may want to adjust that dose in the future if we can get a weight on him.

If you can, it may be best to bring this little one inside for a few days, since it seems he can fly and he may go somewhere and not make it back. You can keep him in a box for now, cut some 1" strips around, so he can see out and cover with a shear cloth to keep him in and let light in as well, also, put food and water dishes in side. You can line it with newspaper and paper towels for now. Can you weigh him, as this would be important information to have and please pick up the Enrofloxacin tomorrow. Don't forget to count his resting breaths and post this information.

Hold of on any hand feeding food (Kaytee) for a bit, have to run, will be back in 4-5 hours,

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I put him on the room near balcony to see outside .His brother just came looking for him I want to let him go but if he is sick not good for him Tomorrow i will buy norflaxacin 1.5 ml is for 24 hr Could metronazile harm him ?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm,



Like Karyn says...


Metronidazole...and, if you can also, some broad speactrum antibiotic also, have him on these for six days or so.


They can get a Pasturella or other infection in their digestive system, possibly having it become systemic, from 'cat food' obtained from Cat's eating Bowls.


Also, there are some suggestions of Canker in his Urates...

So...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Phill thank you again . Should i force him to eat exact cause he resists But i am afraid and the other pigeon could be sick Cause i saw one poop extending from him like a long wire this morning He left but he returned to sleep. I dont know if i should catch him and give both of them therapy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I put him on the room near balcony to see outside .His brother just came looking for him I want to let him go but if he is sick not good for him Tomorrow i will buy norflaxacin 1.5 ml is for 24 hr Could metronazile harm him ?


I am glad you were able to arrange for him to see out. George, Metronidazole is a pretty forgiving med and the dose you gave him should be fine. If you could post his weight we could be much more exact with dosing for his meds, and with the Norfloxacin, I would like to get the dosing as close as possible.

Does he eat on his own, if so, just spread some seeds on the floor for him. Instead of the Kaytee, do you think you could pick up some frozen peas and corn (not canned) run them under warm water until thawed and "pop" 20 pieces into him, like in this video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Once we are sure things are moving well from his crop we will up the amount being feed.

Can you post a photo of the other's droppings? How is he acting? Does he roost at your place at night?


Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I catched him and put together .Together i think they will be able to get through this . I will give them medicine tomorrow . World outside can wait for a while.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, is there anyway you could pick up some Metronidazole tablets, they will be safer to give (a pill is cut up into pieces and "popped" to the back of their throat) than giving each of them 1.5mL of the liquid by syringe? If you can, see if you can get 250mg pills, get about 6, this way you will have extra if you need some in the future.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry karyn but frozen peas and corn (not canned) arent a little big for them or i can find x small one. I saw this morning that a poop was hanging off him like cheese from pitsa It was extra dense i think And if phill thinks might be sick I have no choice Tomorrow morning i will get the weight and give medicine. THANK YOU They are adorable


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Karyn tomorrow i will go to pharmacy for pets Do you think they have such small pills or i should take normal 500 mg and cut them in 10 pieces I should ask also norflaxycin in tablets ?Chould be a little difficult but i will try


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, over here you can get both 250mg & 500mg sized pills. If the 250mg are not available, get the 500mg ones and we'll cut them up the best we can will a razor knife. If they can compound the tablets into a 10% suspension or if they have a pre-mixed children's suspension for either the Norfloxacin of Ciprofloxacin get this, just make sure they are clear with you on the concentration (mg/mL), if not just get the pills, as a suspension is not hard to make. Make sure you have some 1cc/mL syringes (the kind without the needle attached) as well.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Exact not covers them fully ? When i feed them he swallow and sometimes opens mouth like he yawn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Exact not covers them fully ? When i feed them he swallow and sometimes opens mouth like he yawn


Yes, the Kaytee covers them fully. The thing is, with a bird at the age of the one you are helping is at, most here, if they were going to feed Kaytee, would use a tube or a crop needle to place the food directly into the crop. The reason is that feeding this way really reduces the chance of them accidentally inhaling the Kaytee (aspirating it). If they aspirate food this is very dangerous for them and can lead to death, sometimes immediately and sometimes from them developing an infection in the lungs from food being in there. This has happened a number of times over the years to people trying to help a bird, where the food they were feeding went into the lungs.

George, if you have done it before, slowly with a syringe in by mouth, and take you time and you are confident in your method of doing this, then just be very careful, but the safest way would be to pop some frozen peas and corn for now (defrosted and slightly warmed of course), around 20 pieces as mentioned, to make sure things are moving through well.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

GeorgeOm said:


> Sorry karyn but frozen peas and corn (not canned) arent a little big for them or i can find x small one. I saw this morning that a poop was hanging off him like cheese from pitsa It was extra dense i think And if phill thinks might be sick I have no choice Tomorrow morning i will get the weight and give medicine. THANK YOU They are adorable


Hi GeorgeOm,



The SOONER you can get them both going on the Metronidazole, and in a certain way so the dosage is correct, the better the possibility of them living.


Yes, this is a serious often fatal illness unless treated..!


Waste no more time on this!


If need be, make some tiny 'Bread Balls'...carefully tear a small bit of crustless Bread, add the drops of the Liquid Metronidazole to it, roll it up into a little Ball the size of a small Pea, and "pop" that down their Throat.


Getting the Metronidazole Tablets would be easier of course.



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Phill i do not know what to do they resist like crazy when try to feed them Do you believe is canker Should i release the bigger one who is more active The small one about 250 gr and the big one 400 gr The feces are not right Should i visti a doctor The small one seems difficult to breath and swallow the bigger one is more active but his feces is like diarrhoea and green I do not know what to do anymore I bought corn balls and cut them to pieces but the small could not shallow I feed them slowly but they resist it takes 5 min from one spoon to the other I give them 10 ml exact 3 times a day


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I would keep them both in and treat them both. At 400gr the larger one seems to be in body mass shape and should be able to eat on his own, just please food and water out for him. On the other hand at 250gm, the smaller one needs some real help, could you take him to a vet? They may not know a lot about pigeons, but if he could get checked out and perhaps started on some injectable Baytril (the dose for pigeons would be 20mg/kg IM) and perhaps also pick up some Metronidazole there as well. If this is not possible please get the Norfloxacin and Metronidazole ASAP today to get him started on a broad-spectrum antibiotic (the dose for the Norfloxacin would 20mg/kg twice a day, so you will give the little one 5mg by mouth, twice a day and the larger one 8mg). Ask the doctor to do a fecal exam and has him look for cocci, worm eggs and yeast and so a gram stain as well.

You can mix up some Kaytee this way, 2 tablespoons of Kaytee, 1/2-1 teaspoon of olive oil and slowly add water until is of a very thick consistency (pie dough like) that you can roll into little balls (no larger than a pea) and pop them like in the video clip I posted earlier. It is important for about each 10 balls "popped" you slowly give, if he is not drinking well, 5mL of water (take your time, a few drops at a time), start him on 10m balls and if things go well (check that his crop has empties after 2-3 hours) give him 10 more and so on. George, I would also, for now for the little one, substitute hydration fluid for all fluid intake for him. You can make hydration fluid by add 2 teaspoons of sugar, 1/4 teaspoon of salt and a pinch of baking soda (bicarbonate of soda) to 8oz (250mL) of water. Outside of the the fluid you will be giving to help digest the Kaytee balls, I would like you to get a few rounds of just fluids into him through the day to keep his system well hydrated, I would like to see a good amount of very wet droppings coming out of him (again, be very careful when giving fluid so he does not inhale any).

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I gave today both 7.5 mg norflaxacin and 1.5 ml metrinadosole The big one eat on his own the small one is real sick close eyes and doesnt eat like the other


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I try fresh corn and peans very difficult for the small to shallow I will try with these balls cause with suringe exact is a mess


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I ve also put fresh water and the small run to it When trying with the syringe of 1 ml to give metronidazole to the big one he got drown a little bit I think 20 ml syringe is better with fast insertiono f the fluid I bought tablets of flagyl but they gave me caps Can i use capsules open them and make portions of 50 mg ? I will try the fluid now THank you so much The balls with exact is very good idea Cause i always make exact to 40 this can not be applied to balls


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I gave today both 7.5 mg norflaxacin and 1.5 ml metrinadosole The big one eat on his own the small one is real sick close eyes and doesnt eat like the other


OK, if you could keep the small one quite and see if you could provide him a bit of supplemental heat, a hot water bottle cover with a towel, or a heating pad set on low covered with a towel, would be good. Make sure he has enough room to come away from the heat if he finds it too warm. Lots of fluid for the little one (very careful).

Getting a vet involved would still be a good idea, as a few tests may help a lot in trying to figure out what is wrong, as if it is a problem with cocci or worms, the Norfloxacin and the Metronidazole will not help with these infections. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I ve also put fresh water and the small run to it


Good, see if you can substitute the hydration fluid for the water. Really monitor his fluid/water intake very closely, as its extremely important right now to help him stay hydrated and flush his system.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I try fresh corn and peans very difficult for the small to shallow I will try with these balls cause with suringe exact is a mess


They work well, just make sure, as I mentioned, he has plenty of fluids as well. Have to run, will not be back until later today.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

poops updated Mother comes and look the bigger is better the smaller is so and so How many ml of water should i give


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I red about canker and for sure that the one difficult to breath to eat lethargy cheese feces what s the chances Phill I red they usually no good I dont know but all these days i take care of them i suffer from terible headaches
Does hot water help him to shallow ? hot exact is it better ? I dont understand they catch canker from mother why all this time nothing hapened and now they are sick Could a doctor rescue small


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm, 



The smaller, sicker Bird should not have any more solid food ( such as Seeds ) until considerable progress has been made in recovery.


The difficulty swallowing is likely from inflamitory debris in the Throat or Esophagus.


The usual recourse is to very carefully Tube in Medicine in solution...and to Tube Feed thin formula.

We can explain to you how to do this safely and for the Bird's comfort.


If there are any home medical supply places in your area, get a few 10 mL Syringes with plain tips...and get a few Pediatric Urinary Catheters, clear 'silicone' type, in the size "No. 8 French"...length does not matter, you will only be using the first 6 inches or so of the Spigot end, after shortening the Catheter.

"Self Cath" is a good brand to ask for.


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They gave me capsules flagyl Can i open capsules to get a 50 mg portion ? His mouth is also full of mucous . The ball which karyn told me worked ok but with great resist Excuse me phill this trichomona create ulcerated lesion in the mucosa of oesophagus and lesions in the bronchial tree but also can invade splachnic organs ?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What dosage is a full Capsule?


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

500 mg per capsule


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

GeorgeOm said:


> I red about canker and for sure that the one difficult to breath to eat lethargy cheese feces what s the chances Phill I red they usually no good I dont know but all these days i take care of them i suffer from terible headaches.





This condition can usually be cured with a correct course of care and treatment.


Unfortunately, it is usually difficult for someone who is new to all of it, to rally and manage all the details.

None the less, if you follow our suggestions, you can probably manage it alright, and have a good recovery.


Both Birds of course need to be on the Meds for a week, or maybe more, depending on how things go.


You need to seperate the two Birds now, for the smaller one to be in his own containment.





> Does hot water help him to shallow ? hot exact is it better ?





No...


Formula should merely be close to normal body temperature...test it on the underside of your wrist, like mothers do for people-baby-formula.


Never heat it in a microwave...


Warm formula in a cup, sitting in a Saucepan of warm Water...stirring it so it absorbs the warmth and is evenly warmed.




> I dont understand they catch canker from mother why all this time nothing hapened and now they are sick Could a doctor rescue small




The Organism which 'Canker' arise from, is a normal background fauna for Pigeons.


Stress or other factors, defficient diet, whatever, if weakening the Bird's immune system...can then occasion conditions where the Organisms assume a pathological involvement.


Few Vets are familiar with this unfortunately.


If you do have any Vets who you already know, and who are friendly, you could of course appeal to them for their help or insight.


Some of those poops look more like Egg Yolk, than that they look like Urates associated with Canker or other infection symptoms.



Get the smaller one into his own Box...white Towel or paper Towel lining the Bottom...


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I AM confused Maybe the only way is to visit a vet WHAT IS YOLK EGG ? you mean i gave the bird yolk egg ? Sorry phil i am just totally new to this Till this finish it will get my hair white


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I think Phil is saying the droppings are unusual looking, and I agree, appearing like what might drawn from a bird with egg yolk peritonitis, your bird does not have this condition. The symptoms he is displaying, thick mucus dropping and mucus in the mouth and lethargy, are symptoms of not only infection, but of lack of fluids. I would get a Q-Tip and very gently and carefully clean away any mucus from his mouth and slowly, a few drops at a time, give him some re-hydration fluid (5mL, this will take a 5-10 minutes, I posted how to make this earlier) and check him in an hour, if the fluids are moving well from his crop do this every 1-2 hours, I would like to get 20-30mL of fluids through him over the rest of the day. A vet, as I mentioned a few times, would be helpful for injectable meds, fecal testing and to perhaps administer Sub-Q fluids (this is like injectable fluids to go right into his body and bypass the digestive system) if test show he is dehydrated.

With the Metronidazole, don't worry about it right now if he got his dose for the day, we'll deal with that later.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry Karyn but i dont know the basics Now i understand 20-30 ml per day i prepared this solution and ve given 5ml earlier I found one trick with metronidazole The caps have powder i will mix it in a ball of exact and give them But the case that metronidazole plus ernoflaxacin could be not the right medicine worries me out


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, you are doing the very best you can, without you he would have no chance, at least he stands a chance with you trying so hard. We'll all just try our best, that's all we can do (and pray a little as well ).

Call a few vets and see if they'll do what is called a fecal analysis, if you bring in some of the droppings, looking for cocci, worms and yeast (I don't think these are the main problem, but can be co-infections in a weakened bird). Also, describe as well the condition of your little guy and ask if they could be of help.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

GeorgeOm said:


> They gave me capsules flagyl Can i open capsules to get a 50 mg portion ? His mouth is also full of mucous .




Well...at this stage or condition, there is likely some considerable blockage in the Throat or upper esophagus.


The small thin soft Catheter is a means of supplying the Solution of Medicing directly into the Crop...and, one has to be very sensitive and careful to get it past the blockages and not accidently into a Lesion where it could perforate a compromised area of infected Tissue in the Esophagus.




> The ball which karyn told me worked ok but with great resist



I believe it is likely too late now for anything but Liquids via the 'Tube'.




> Excuse me phill this trichomona create ulcerated lesion in the mucosa of oesophagus and lesions in the bronchial tree but also can invade splachnic organs ?



Yes...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm, 



Often, the Canker infection is heaviest, or is predominately localized in the Throat or upper Esopagus.



Mucous and also foul Odor can attend.

Once this advances enough, it can prevent swallowing even Liquids...hence, the Syringe and Catheter section ( carefully twirling the angle-cut end of the Catheter through and past the obstruction materisl ) is then the only practical means of getting Medicines into them, by depositing it directly into their Crop...and, also allows thin formula to be given, provided the lower GI areas will pass it.



Some of the poop associated artifacts seen in the images appear to be congealed Egg Yoke, and are not liquids or even slumping from gravity as poop or urate material would usually do.

Light orange in color.


Granted, the two young Pigeons are too young to have acquired an active reproductive system, where a serious Oviduct infection could cause disintergrated Egg materials to be excreted...


So, I was wondering who they came from, and or if you are certain those artifacts came from one of the youngsters?



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I do not exactly how to put the tube to the crop directly and i am afraid for such a attemp At least someone should show me From what you are writing if is too late for anything than tube feeding dissapoints me as is difficult for me to feed directly to the crop I do not know I must visit vet tomorrow When does the antibiotics will act ? 6F Cordis diagnostic catheters (1.4478 mm) (0.057 inches) Is that right? How deep inside should i put the catheter


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, here are a couple of links with information on tube feeding. The one from Foy's is done with steel needles, not soft ones, but the principal is the same and I wanted you to see how the tube goes in. The first clip is only about 3-4 minutes, although it says 7, so don't worry something is wrong, make sure you look at both Youtube clips.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/health.html
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483708&postcount=53

A post on how to wrap a bird in a towel to restrain it to make things easier when feeding:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=484052&postcount=82

A post (3/4 of the way down) going through the procedure:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483617&postcount=37

You don't have to do anything just yet, go through the information above to get an idea in you mind how the procedure goes. The most important thing right now is that you keep the bird well hydrated, by slowly giving hydration fluid, if he dehydrates things will be very bad. Also, every third time you give fluid, you could make the third one a 50:50 mix of hydration fluid and honey to give him some energy for now. Mix 1 teaspoon of fluid and 1 teaspoon of honey (this will be 10mL) and give him 5mL of this.

In case, because of time zone differences, it comes time again to give him some Metronidazole, I want you to only give him 1mL (25mg), to adjust for his weight (plus I think we should dial back the dose some).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm,



"No 8 French" would be best.


6 is kinda small for formula to get through.


Here are some images for preparing the Outfit -

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX


I usually cut the Catheter to about 5 inches in length from the 'Spigot' end.


Of this, roughly 3 or 3-1/2 Inches would be expected to go into the Pigeon's Throat/Crop, depending on the size of the Pigeon...so one has a little then to spare which is not inserted.


I have to take a nap, I am just wasted today...but, possibly Karyn could explain how to make a 'Burrito Bird' for inspecting the Bird's Mouth and Throat, as well as this is very useful for occasions of adminsterating Fluids or Medicinal Solutions or Formula, via the 'Tube'.


I posted all this recently,but I do not remember what Thread it was in.


You have to be very careful in several ways.


One, is to inspect and study the Pigeon's Mouth and Throat so evaluate conditions there, and, also, to see clearly the position of the Trachia, through which the Bird Breathes, and, to distinguish it clearly from his Esopahus, which of course is his Throat, where food or liquids would normally be swallowed.

And it is into the Bird's Throat, or Esophagus, into which the 'Tube' is carefully twirled and inserted.


The Tube must be lubricated for most of it's length, with KY or Olive Oil in order to slide without dragging or friction.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Today i managed to crop feeding with a 6f vertebral catheter .The small one is much better I gave 20 ml of extra liquid exact 2 times each bird and medicine The small one in the oropharynx and upper oesophagus there are multiple white lesions In the big one i saw tiny lesions in the morning I have to know i will feed them 3 times a day 20 ml exact plus medicine plus each time ? 10 ml of water solution That means 30 ml of food plus water How much can the crop handle In the small while trying entering oesophagus i saw tiny blood but i didnt see it on the afternoon. They are much better Will it be any improvement in the next days Thank You


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Today poops mor water and less white


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

One small ( Not so small ) and one big


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm,



Very good..!


Glad to see this progress..!

This might just work out well.


Glad you were able to manage the 'Tube'.


Often, conditions like these take a full Week ( 7 days ) of Meds...or even longer.


We can just keep reviewing, as things go.

If you can get some raw Apple Cider Vinegar ( any Health Food Store ) mix four Tablespoons of it to a Gallon of Water, and use that for mixing the Formula you are tubing in.


Make sure their Crops are passing of course, checking the Crop before feeding.


You do not want to accidently over-fill a Crop.




Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Today i managed to crop feeding with a 6f vertebral catheter .The small one is much better I gave 20 ml of extra liquid exact 2 times each bird and medicine The small one in the oropharynx and upper oesophagus there are multiple white lesions In the big one i saw tiny lesions in the morning I have to know i will feed them 3 times a day 20 ml exact plus medicine plus each time ? 10 ml of water solution That means 30 ml of food plus water How much can the crop handle In the small while trying entering oesophagus i saw tiny blood but i didnt see it on the afternoon. They are much better Will it be any improvement in the next days Thank You


George, you have done excellent, he looks much better today. I would not give more than 20mL at once to the sick bird, the larger one could handle up to 30mL and make sure the crop has emptied before feeding again. Now that you can tube directly to the crop, I would give the Norfloxacin and Metronidazole together, in 5mL of hydration fluid, to an empty crop, 1 hour before feeding. Although they both work systemically, by being absorbed into the body's blood supply and tissue, the both have contact effectiveness, will work when they come into contact with a sensitive bacteria or organism, so I try not to give meds, if possible, along with the Kaytee, as this will dilute their contact strength, hence effectiveness when they come in contact with the tissue of the GI system.

Droppings look very much improved, I knew yesterday would be a critical day for the little one and you managed to pull him through, Not out of the woods by any means yet, but things are a good deal better today than yesterday.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Make sure they are drinking enough Water.

Guide those Beaks!!

Gotta keep those little Kidneys well flushed...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, yes, as Phil says, lots to drink. Here is a link to where he describes the method:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=470112&postcount=9

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

poops today too liquid Especially after feeding they have like diarrhoa I gave them solution with medicine 7ml from 250 ml two small spoon sugar half salt and small baking soda .Poops are better smaller white but some poop like diarrhoea some only water. Do you think i should reduce fluidsSHould i give them water with honey hot liquid honey and water. I think maybe water better close to their temperature when to crop 35-40 C. I should stop totally seeds ? not even small ones ? I will buy apple vinar tomorrow. In the morning their parents came and they were kissing if front of window. Cause they are most of the time inside home is it enough for sun bathing


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, do not worry right now about the droppings looking like diarrhea, with all the liquids they are getting and being feed Kaytee they are supposed to look very loose and wet, this is quite OK at present. Do not feed they anything too hot, the food/liquids should be around 39-40 degrees (102-104 F) , no hotter. Do not reduce amounts right now, as long as their crops are emptying well. With the larger one, you could put a dish of seeds out for him to eat under supervision and then remove them when you are not there watching, just make sure the little one does not eat any right now, as it will be a few more days for him before he is allowed to try to eat seeds again (small ones) .

When you get the ACV (apple cider vinegar) make sure it is organic and MUST have the "mother wort" still in it. Here's an example:

http://bragg.com/products/bragg-organic-apple-cider-vinegar.html

Good to hear the parents are well and still hanging around.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Some of poops Organic you mean from real apple vinar acid not synthetic


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Some of poops Organic you mean from real apple vinar acid not synthetic


George, like in the example in the link I posted. If you have "health food stores" or natural food stores in Greece you would almost certainly be able to get some there. As mentioned, make sure it's raw with the "Mother" still active in it.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I ve put water to drink and the small made bath and he ate some x small seeds which were for the big one Now h e is coughing a little bit. lesions in the orophanyx still there but smaller. I gave them honey I will search vinar apple in specialized shops with bio - products maybe they have Poops are better many of them Some of them are not good especially in the morning after many hours not feeding them


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, please do not feed the little one any seeds for a few more days, even small ones, just continue with his tube feeding and medicines, this will be best for him right now. We want to give the medicines a chance to clear up most of the infection before starting seeds again for him.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

ok i gave him hot exact and he is better now They also attacked me !!!!!!!!!


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

He is better now he coughs sometimes They are active Should i put some warm around We got 30 C in he house I can not put a blanket on him he does not want H e gained weight He is close to the big one


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> ok i gave him hot exact and he is better now They also attacked me !!!!!!!!!


OK, sounds like he is gaining some strength and has much better body posture and appearance. George, when you say "hot exact", you mean warm at 39-40 degrees, not hotter right? Please keep an eye on the coughing, make sure the neck is well held, then gently extended and tilt it back a bit when tubing.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

39-40 yes Could this cough be from tubing because on time he resisted a little but the catheter is extra soft and small


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Some poops today


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for confirming the temperature, I was almost certain this was the case, but I wanted to be sure. The poops are looking much better. The cough could be from a few things, let's see if it clears up with the meds. What I would like you to do when tube feeding is when you have filled the syringe with the Kaytee, slow pull back the plunger a very tiny bit more, this will pull the Kaytee a little farther up the tube/catheter. We want the first 1/2" of the catheter to have no food, only air, as this way when you are inserting the tube into the mouth and down the throat, it will help keep any drops of Kaytee from dripping out, which may accidentally be inhaled.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I red about betadine solution oral use Can this help also ? I think i should raise the flagyl dose to 2 2.5 ml cause 5ml are equivalent to 200 mg of benzoato de metronidazol equivalent to 125 mg metronidazole that mean 2.5 ml to have a 62.5 mg dose


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, no, please don't use this. I think we will be fine with the program they are on. I have never used, or heard mention of use here of oral betadine in pigeons and we really don't want to use something that is not widely used with pigeons and shown to be of benefit, as that would be experimental, and we try not to experiment on the birds we we make an effort to help here. If you wanted to pick up some Nystatin to have around, we may end up running a course of this med for these birds and if we don't, it's a good medicine to have around for them, as I feel you will be helping others in the future.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I red about betadine solution oral use Can this help also ? I think i should raise the flagyl dose to 2 2.5 ml cause 5ml are equivalent to 200 mg of benzoato de metronidazol equivalent to 125 mg metronidazole that mean 2.5 ml to have a 62.5 mg dose


George, you have calculated the correct equivalent amount of Metronidazole that would be in the 2.5mL of benzoato de metronidazol. One of the most quoted doses for pigeons for Metronidazole is 50mg/kg BID (twice a day). It has been the dose I have used most often myself over the years I have used the drug, this would mean for your little guy that weighs 250mg (last weight), he would receive 12.5mg twice a day. Some people, including myself, sometimes double the dose and give it once a day, this would be 25mg, which is what I suggested you dial back the dose to a few days ago (1mL=25mg).

I asked you to dial back the dose for two reasons, one, I thought it was a more appropriate dose for his weight and two, after seeing the composition and color of the droppings produced after the first large dose of the Metronidazole you gave, that looked like "egg yolk", I was concerned that there might be too big of a die off happening of the infection, which can be overwhelming to a weak system and end up actually making things worse.

The 25mg a day seems to have been working well and it would be my recommendation we hold to it, with perhaps a slight adjustment for any new weight gained, for the present time.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The small one cough sometimes but it worries me because the lesions in the oropharynx despite they had been reduced two days ago today they are as they were I dont know in how many days the medicine acts Maybe raise the portion of exact cause i give them really liquid to 30 ml x3 times a day + 10 ml liquid and medicine
I checked him this morning and he is worse a little bit suffering from the respiratory system I dont know what to do I will 1 ml metronidazole ok but what else like 
cause i wake up 8 and feed them at 9 maybe too many hours wihtout food maybe feed them at 6 when they wake up
I also put them near window were is sun and warm Do you think warm is better for them cause they stayed to much inside home where there is no sun 
I am worrying


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi GeorgeOm,


Well, food quantity sounds good, should be plenty then really.

If anything, 30 mL at-a-time might even be a bit much for a frail or smaller Pigeon.


Do you think he had aspirated some liquid ( got Liquid or formula into his Trachia? ) at some point?


Inflamitory debris from Lesions can sometimes take a while to release and or clear.


Sunlight and or Warmth are good...


Can you obtain Cipro/Batyril/Enroflaxyn where you are?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They are already under enroflaxyn (is that cinolones is extra strong medicine) I use some oil for cooking in order to pass catheter i put catheter in the deep in the crop slow rate injection they dont seem to aspirate I turn metro to 1 ml ok ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Maybe raise the portion of exact cause i give them really liquid to 30 ml x3 times a day + 10 ml liquid and medicine
> I checked him this morning and he is worse a little bit suffering from the respiratory system


George, Phil has just mentioned, and I mentioned earlier, not to give the little one more than 20mL of Kaytee at a time, plus you are giving the meds in 10mL of fluid and I asked if you could give it in 5mL of fluid. It would be best if you could try and follow our recommendations, as there are reasons, based on experience for what we ask you to do (also, it's very important to make sure the crop is empty before feeding again).

If you could pick up another antibiotic called Doxycycline (trade names; Vibramycin, Oracea, Adoxa, Atridox) today, I would like to add it to the Norfloxacin you are already giving, as it will help with respiratory issues, please confirm whether you are using Norfloxacin or Enrofloxacin and the exact dose you are giving. You could also pick up the Nystatin I mention in an earlier post as well.

Also, if you could line up a vet in advance, in case the respiratory issues don't improve, this would be good, as there are a few drugs that are injectable that could be given and we would need a vet to do this, plus if you could ask the vets you speak to if the do antibiotic nebulization treatments, it would be good as well.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

is that the one


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They are doing much better now no cough Smal still cough sometimes I use baytril 7.5 mg Big one is 300 gr small 250 gr Reduce fluids to 5 ml for small I give fluids 1 hour before feed 10 ml solution + honey solution + medicine 
About vinar 4 spoons in 3.6 lt Should i add tomorrow vibramycin


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> is that the one


Yes, start by adding 5mL to 1 liter a water the first day, put some this water out in their water dish and we'll increase the dose a bit each day. 

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Karyn Sorry but sometimes i get confused I red that they could handle 30 ml of liquids I try very hard and i am getting desperate I dont know what else Tomorrow i will buy vibramycin please tell me the dose And vinar no insert to crop just to their water but they do not drink much of the dishes Should i put some hot near them cause blanket they do not want Please confirm

I checked them and both cough sneez time to time Should i alert
The big one no canker in throat 
the small one the same a little better


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Karyn Sorry but sometimes i get confused I red that they could handle 30 ml of liquids I try very hard and i am getting desperate I don't know what else Tomorrow i will buy vibramycin please tell me the dose And vinar no insert to crop just to their water Should i put some hot near them cause blanket they do not want Please confirm
> 
> I checked them and both cough sneez


George, there is lots of information on the Internet concerning the care of pigeons, but the advice you are being giving in this thread is narrowly focused on helping the birds you have in your care, my recommendation is you try and follow them as closely as you can.

With the Vibramycin, it may come in 50mg or 100mg capsules. I want you to open one of the 100mg capsules (two 50mg) and dissolve the contents into 5mL (1 teaspoon) of water (distilled or filtered water would be best). This will make a 2% Doxycycline solution (20mg/mL) and you will give the little 0.50cc/mL (1/2 of a (1, one) mL, 10mg) and the larger one 0.75cc/mL (3/4 of a mL, 15mg) twice a day. You can mix up their other meds into 5mL of fluid as usual and add the Doxycycline to this, so you will now be giving the little one a total 5.5mL and the larger one 5.75mL (so, three meds together-- Doxycycline, Norfloxacin/Enrofloxacin and Metronidazole, Metro once a day). Store all liquid meds in the refrigerator and shake well before using.

Yes, just add the 5mL (1 teaspoon) of Apple Cider Vinegar to 1 (one) liter of water and take water from this to put in their water dish.

George, while at the pharmacist if you could also pick up 6 pills of an anti-fungal called Fluconazole, it may be wise, as if they don't soon respond to the antibiotics we may have to think perhaps it could be something mycotic (fungal) and made need a systemic anti-fungal to enable treatment (the Nystatin is not a systemic anti-fungal, it is not absorbed by the body and only works on contact) so will not be effective in treating a deep fungal infection. Also, while there check to see if they carry a med called Tinidazole, it's a relative of Metronidazole and there is a possibility that a change in canker meds may be in order.

Also, please remember to confirm the dose of the Norfloxacin/Enrofloxacin and have you had any luck, even before today, of finding a vet who could help out? Can we get an up-to-date weight on them both? Could you get someone to help you with the little one to gently hold open its mouth so you could try and take a close up photo of the area of concern?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

wait a moment


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Big one 300 gr small 250 gr updated today


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I think these are better foto


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks George, this is very helpful. This looks to be canker, with the small possibility it is inflammatory debris from a bacterial infection, but I would lean much more towards canker. Is the large one sneezing or coughing at all, as with the little one this appears to be interfering with the opening to its trachea (windpipe) and may be the cause of breathing difficulties. Do this, I want you to use a Q-Tip to blot up most of the moisture from its mouth, then right away give two drops (this will be .10cc no more) of the Metronidazole right in the mouth so it touches this area and the bird will swallow, do this three times a day and still give the 1mL of Metronidazole once a day as well. Please see my request about looking into Tinidazole, as there may be a possibility the canker could be a resistant one and a change in meds many times will clear it up. Ignore my request, for the time being, to pick up some Fluconazole, but do check to see if you could get it if needed.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The big one sneez more time to time not very often the small one sneez less Please help me because is difficult to find med tinidazole where to find it ?


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

fasigyn i found tabl


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> The big one sneez more time to time not very often the small one sneez less Please help me because is difficult to find med tinidazole where to find it ?


Where are you getting the Norfloxacin and Metronidazole from, as they very well may have it. Tinidazole is used for human parasitic infections and is much more readily available in European counties than in North America. Also, please confirm whether it's Norfloxacin or Enrofloxacin you have and exact dose for each you are giving.

Fasigyn, yes, this is Tinidazole.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

this fasigyn is tinidazole tabl 500 mg the same dose for the small ?


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Ans should i give all these medicines vibramycin fluconazole plus baytril plus tinidazole ??????


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Ans should i give all these medicines vibramycin fluconazole plus baytril plus tinidazole ??????


George, you will add the Vibramycin as per my instructions earlier. You will not buy the Fluconazole, but just check if you could get it if needed. You will continue with the Baytril, so it is Enrofloxacin (Baytril) you have and not Norfloxacin (PLEASE confirm this, it's strength and the dose you are using on each bird!!!). You will buy the Tinidazole, but not start it until you confirm dosing instructions here. You will right away gently dry out mouth with a Q-Tip and give 2 drops of liquid Metronidazole.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Baytril enroflaxacin 7.5 mg Is that ok for each bird 300 gr and 250 gr ? A small of the white lesion just got ff into the q tip Should i try gently remove some if it is possible


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

IF that yellow is pus it must be removed gently And if there are ulcerated lesions in the oesophagus that could mean stricture formation


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Baytril enroflaxacin 7.5 mg Is that ok for each bird 300 gr and 250 gr ? A small of the white lesion just got ff into the q tip Should i try gently remove some if it is possible


No, DON'T try and take anymore off, if a little comes of again tomorrow when you gently wipe the mouth OK. With canker, there always is a chance with the lesions that if they come off when not ready, they are removed by someone or are accidentally removed when feeding, the lesion will start to bleed and a bird could bleed to death.

With the Enrofloxacin, go to once a day dosing for both birds. So, Metro-once a day (1mL small + 1.25ML big), Enrofloxacin - once a day (7.5mg each), Vibramycin - twice a day ( .50mL = 10mg small + .75mL = 15mg big).

George, I just wanted to mention you did good by asking about removing the canker yourself, and not just doing something without checking.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Thank You So Much


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

poop of big one with little cough


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I reduced fluid i gave the small to 5ml when i give medicine but i am confused because earlier you mentioned how important i to give fluids up to 30 ml Please tell me i want to give vibramycin in tablet is it ok I think it s good to change to fangisyn cause it s been 7 days now under metro nad no improvement fo the small What is the dose And for the big one maybe in a few days stop metro

I WRITE AGAIN 20 ml KAYTEE both in the morning - big eat also seeds this time - 5ml small 7 ml big honey plus medicine midday + 1hour 20 ml kaytee both afternoon 20 ml kaytee both


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> I reduced fluid i gave the small to 5ml when i give medicine but i am confused because earlier you mentioned how important i to give fluids up to 30 ml Please tell me i want to give vibramycin in tablet is it ok I think it s good to change to fangisyn cause it s been 7 days now under metro nad no improvement fo the small What is the dose And for the big one maybe in a few days stop metro
> 
> I WRITE AGAIN 20 ml KAYTEE both in the morning - big eat also seeds this time - 5ml small 7 ml big honey plus medicine midday + 1hour 20 ml kaytee both afternoon 20 ml kaytee both


George, I am sorry it is a bit confusing for you, I tried to explain, but maybe I was not clear enough. We want the meds in a smaller amount of water to concentrate them so they will be stronger (more concentrated) if/when they contact a sensitive bacteria/organism in the GI tract, later you can give more fluids with no problem, but giving plain fluids is not quite as important now as they are getting a good amount of hydration from the Kaytee you are feeding, but 5mL 2-3 times a day would be fine if you feel they are not drinking enough on their own to keep flushing their system. The rest sounds OK.

Why do you want to give the Vibramycin in the tablet, this will be way too a high a dose if you do this. What form do you have the Tinidazole in (pills or capsules) and what is the strength of them?

The dropping in the photo you posted yesterday does not look too bad.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Karyn i can not follow this procedure crop feeding 4 times a day cause it needs a whole day for the birds and i have to work too Wash catheter with betadine clean dishes check water temperature clean them i takes me many hours and i have important thing to do also. I have fasigy 500 mg tabl and vibramycin 100 mg tabl I can cut them to make portions of small quantities Thw two cough not often but can figure out that they have have upper respiratory fullness . Could the big one feed alone with seeds Please confirm to change metro to tinidazole.It is not that dificult to make portions I made portions of vibramycin 10 mg for small and 15 for big twice a day .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I know you mentioned no improvements, but the little one certainly looks much better than just a few days ago, so the meds are working based on better appearance and improved droppings.

Thanks for explaining your situation more clearly, I think we can get you down to two sessions, one in the morning and one at night to help you out. Because of the way you explained things, first thing in the morning give the meds in 5mL of fluids, then 1/2-1 hour later give the 20mL (30 to the big) of Kaytee, this should be enough to sustain them through the day until you get home. At night (12 hours or so later) do the same, 5mL of fluids and meds, then 1/2-1 hour later another feeding of Kaytee, this way you will be free the whole day to look after you affairs, of course provide water with the ACV (apple cider vinegar) for them to drink as they choose. If could could do an extra feeding of the little one when time permits, this would be good as well (crop must be empty).

With the meds, the measurements will be much more precise if you do as I suggested, crush the Vibramycin up in a shot glass, or an espresso cup, with the end of a kitchen utensil, I use a small whisk, and add 5mL (1 teaspoon) of water to this and stir for a few minutes until it is all dissolved. Use 0.50mL (1/2 a cc, .75cc for the bigger one) to add to the med fluids.

With the Fasigyn, do the same, crush a 500mg tablet up into a fine powder and add 1mL of warm water to this and stir it in and then add 9mL of honey to form a 5% suspension (50mg/mL). Use 0.50mL (25mg) of the Tinidazole suspension for the little one and 0.75mL for the bigger one (37.5mg) once a day. Please continue to place two drops of the liquid Metronidazole into the little ones mouth twice a day, you can do this 10 minutes before you give meds/fluids.

As I mentioned before, the big one can have seeds under supervision, so the little one does not eat any just yet. You should not leave a dish of seeds out for the big one all day if the little would have access to them.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Thank you Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I have been thinking about the parents of these birds and the possibility that they may almost certainly be infected with canker themselves, and have passed it to their babies.

It might be worthwhile trying to treat them. To do this get one of the 500mg tablets of Tinidazole and divide this pill, as best you can, into 10 small pieces, so each piece is now 50mg of Tinidazole. Get some very fresh bread and cut it into pieces 1/2"x 1/2" x 1/2" and place a 50mg piece of the Tinidazole into the middle and roll it into a ball.

Do some other small pieces of bread as well, so you have a fair amount of pieces without Tinidazole. See if you can get them eating the plain pieces of bread you throw to them, seeing if you can get them a little ways apart from one another. When they are far enough apart, where one can't get to the other's pieces of bread too fast, throw the ball with the Tinidazole close to each so only they can eat it. One pill should be enough for 5 days of treatment for both (one 50mg piece once a day each) and this should hopefully clear them of any canker they have so they don't pass it on to any of other babies they may have of become ill with canker themselves.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

In the small one the lesions droped off into eosophagus while giving drops of metro Now there are only tiny lesions They are much better Bravo karyn phill I changed today to tinizado Cause metro seems to work should i return to metro They do not cough should i stop vibra It s been seven days since they have been under baytril Should i stop The big one seems healthy and clear of canker should i stop tinizadol to him In the morning i fed small and give seeds to big but he didnt eat much and they do not drink much as far as i could know and i fed them both on midday Should small try seeds tomorrow Thank you whithout your help i couldnt make it through


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, this is good news indeed. No, do not change anything right now, continue all meds and same methods/routine with both for 5 more days and we can reassess. Like mentioned before, the big one can have seeds, the little one in maybe 2 days (small ones). If you could post another photo of the mouth area of the little one for us to have a look it would be helpful.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

it is difficult to cure paqrents I gave 50mg tini to one but unfortunately another small bird did eat 2 balls of 50 mg that where for the other parent Should i try again or it is too risky for other birds overdosing tinid


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Today the small Still on small lesion deep in the oropharynx


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Another one from small


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, there is a wide safety margin with Tinidazole, but I would not try anymore today. The one that got 100mg of med will have received a high loading dose and a very good start to eradicate any canker if present.

What I would do today though is practice your technique with plain bread pieces to get a better feel how to separate them and to quickly toss a piece to the one you are trying for so that the intended bird gets it.

Wait 24 hours and try again, take your time and see if you can't get each bird to take one bread ball of medicine.

Thanks for the photos, the throat is clearing up very nicely.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They attack me when i try to caress them


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Very good news (I am being serious in this), these are the kind of signs we want to hear, it shows they are getting stronger and better and also not bonding to you, which is important for them to do well in the wild.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

you ve been very helpfull Thank you Life is a miracle always to respect


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

When can i start giving seeds to small He has one small ulcerated lesion deep in pharyx


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I would wait one more day before allowing any seeds, to give the meds a little further time to work. Then do not give him as much as he wants, but give him a teaspoon full, or so, and then make such that they move through his digestive system properly (check his crop in 2-3 hours to make sure they have moved further down to be digested) before giving more. Take it a bit slow with him for a few days with seeds to make sure everything is going well and then slowly add bigger seeds and do the same checking as well. Also, please continue to support him with the Kaytee when he is transitioning to seeds.

One other thing, I don't know in your area of the world what people will throw wild pigeons to eat, over here, maybe pieces bread, donuts, muffins, cooked rice and so on, if you could at least put down some very small pieces of bread to start, for the big and littte bird, for them to start to recognize this as food and other small pieces of what the people in Greece may give to feed them, it would be good, as they will not generally find seeds in their daily foraging in the wild, at least in the city over here, unless people put seeds out for them.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I can not control them Now that they have power they try to escape hit the window fly in the house when i try to clean This cause me allergyThey do not eat drink despite they have food and water They only get fed by exact


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, for the next little while things will be a bit hard for you with them, for as you say, they are getting better and are flying inside now. They have to fly and flap their wings to build stronger wing muscles to fly well outside. They are not ready to be let outside again, so if you could arrange a fan in front of a window to blow the air from where you are keeping them outside, this would help with allergy problems. Also, it might help if you temporally block the top parts of windows/patio doors so only 20" at the bottom can be seen through, to keep them on the ground if they want to look outside.

It may be a bit messy, but if you could spread some seeds/food around on the floor, beside their food dishes, this would be good to let them hunt and peck for food. Please keep up the rest of the meds/food program, I think the worst is behind us know and it won't be too much longer before you can let them outside with the parents again.

Would it be possible to get a current weight on them both?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They are the same weight 300 250 When there is a small hole in their box (to look outside) they run and hit all day in order to escape


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I had a feeling these were the weights you would report back. Here is what is happening, the 6f catheter you are using is too small to mix the Kaytee up to the right thickness it needs to be at to provide more nourishment (calories to add weight) and flow through the 6f catheter you are using. With the at least 40mL of Kaytee for the small and at least 60mL for the big one in a day, their weights should have moved up over the last week, and it has not. What you have done has certainly saved the little ones life and the big one's as well most likely, but they are only get enough from the small tube to maintain and not to build.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=495681&postcount=67

Now that they are doing better, today you need to change to a larger size, I would recommend 10f or 12f. I actually am holding both sizes right now in my hands (I used to use silicone catheters before moving to stainless steel crop needles) and I think you should try the 12f to start and you should be fine, but pick up a 10f as well just in case. Before inserting, lubericate the tube with 1 drop of olive oil and slide you fingers up and down the tube to spread it out.

This how to mix the Kaytee up. Heat some cold water on the stove (do not use hot tap water, as there are bacteria that live in hot water tanks sometimes) until it is very warm slowly add this to the Kaytee and stir in until it is a little thick and well mixed, cover and leave it for 1/2 hour. This will allow the Kaytee time to thicken up and for you to later make adjustments, in 1/2 hour you most likely will need to add a bit more water, until it is the proper thickness. The thickness should be like thin pancake batter/or thick crepe batter, it should flow, but not thin like water it should have some "body" to it. Also for every 20mL of Kaytee, I want you to add (stir in very well) 1mL of very fresh olive oil (I know you have lots in Greece ) , and 1/4 teaspoon of honey, this will help make it more calorie dense, I won't bore you with the numbers, but trust me, this will be very helpful in adding body weight to them.

I would like to see them both, if at all possible, at +325 grams in the next week. At 300 grams the big one most like would be OK, but if things go a little wrong for him, not much body reserves to fall back on. The little one at 250 grams is defiantly too small to consider releasing. So we really need to work on getting some body weight on them. I will ask Phil to help out with the weaning to help things go faster.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Karyn these are special catheters we use for humans interventional ones Kaytee was not extra liquid but you are right I should had considered that For sure i move up to 10 f Can they handle thick katee plus 1/4 tea spoon honey 20 ml for small and 30 for big The small one has the eye of the tiger he looks at me like his worst enemy For the big one if he moves like a prisoner right left all day it s a kind of impossible to gain weight


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, yes, they will be able to handle thicker (not thick) Kaytee. When I look at the catheter tube in the photo, I know from experience I would have a hard time feeding Kaytee through that thin tube the way I make it. I wish I knew a Greek drink/food/condiment I could compare a good thickness to, the Kaytee should still flow/run off a spoon, but not thin, but not too thick either. Their weight has not moved in a week of tube feeding, which tells us it is either too thin or not getting enough, I think they are getting enough, although with the little one, as I mentioned, could take three feedings of 20mL a day when possible, when you time allows, so this leaves too thin, plus adding the extra oil and honey will help as well. I think in making these changes, we will start to see their weight go up.

Eye of the tiger is a good thing .

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 


If you have one of those little counter top Electric Coffee Grinders...


You could grind up some dried Figs, and Almonds, and white Safflower Seeds, equal volume of each, grind them into a powder ( grind thoroughly of course! Loosen and stirr and grind some more, to make sure all is ground fine)...the powder will be a little clumpy or sticky in the Grinder, but will dissolve perfectly once stirred into the Formula.



Since Dried Figs can sometimes hold Molds in their folds, maube soak in Lemon Juice first or straight Apple Cider Vinegar for a half hour, then shake off and dry out again over a day, planning ahead that way.

And add this home made 'powder' to the powdered Formula preperation ( keep un-used portion covered in the refrigerator for next use).

Say, 1/3 this, to 2/3rds formula powder...add ACV Water like usual, stirr, let sit and hydrate, warm in a Pan of hot water, etc. serve...




I have always used a No. 8 French Catheter, and it passes my home ground Seed and Fruit Formulas just fine, but of course a No 10 would be even easier.

Lube Catherer well with Olive Oil, 'twirl' in gently...

But "Yes", increase the feeds, figure to hang onto them another week, get some weight on them! This will also give them a little more time for general developent, Wing Muscle development, and so on, for them to be better prepared for the outwise World.


Illness typically sees them loose weight or at least not gain much, then, they can start making up for it, so, now is the time for that..!


Best wishes!


Good Work George!!



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Can i give 60 ml in total for small and 80 for big ? Feed every 6-7 hours


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Can i give 60 ml in total for small and 80 for big ? Feed every 6-7 hours


Yes, this would be fine, 20mL x 3 =60mL for the little and 25-30mL x 3 =75-90mL for the big for the day, just make sure the crop has emptied before each feeding. Soon as we get more weight on them, we will reduce the feeding to perhaps one late 8-10PM Kaytee feeding a day, this will make them want to try and self-feed (eat seeds) on their own, since they will have an empty crop during the day and be hungry, but don't start to do this without checking in.

How is the little one's mouth area looking?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Almost the same for the small Good looking birds (they will kill me for sure i know)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, the eye of the tiger .

George, I think it's time to start to offer them the chance to bathe. You can do this by putting down a small, shallow pan of water, (a little above room temperature, not cool/cold at all), 3-5cm deep. You can splash the water a bit with you hand, so they get the idea there is water in the pan and then leave them be and they should figure it out. They need to start to bathe, as it will help the condition of their feathers to better manage the rain and cold in the wild. You can do this every few days. You can also place a small towel under the pan to help avoid too big a mess.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They are on gain diet plus 10 ml honey Big 320 gr small 270 gr Is it ok that last feed is too late 11 o clock in the night ? They had bath in the mornig small like water big no they seemed to feel cold but after some hours sunbathing they were ok Half new katee gone till sunday maybe all gone Do you think i can make it till sunday they gain weight Lesion in the small is about to fall . Alergy no good i have red spots everywhere under medrol I have to make it till sunday


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, I am sorry about your allergies, did you put a fan in to blow the air to the outside? Also, you could pick up an N95 face mask and use it while handling them, both are not a total solution for you but may help some.

No, 11pm is not too late all for for sick or young birds, I have done feedings, up until 2am in the morning and started at 6am again. I am very happy to see that you have finally got the needle to move on their weight, this is very good. We can try for Sunday, keep feeding them as often as you can, allowing the crop to empty before feeding again, also make sure they both now have access to seeds, small to medium size and of course the ACV water. Please report their weight every day, it is important that you take the weight a the same time, say 7am, before they can eat or drink anything and before you tube them anything as well, to be accurate. I am also glad to hear the last lesion in the little one is about to fall off, just keep doing their program, it is working.

What is the daytime temperature where you are at in Greece like each day? The big one may soon join in to the bathing, plus the bathing will eliminate a lot of their feather dust, which is what you are probably reacting to with your allergies.

Are their parents still hanging around or started a new nest?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

No good tonight we had some vomiting In the morning i gave fluids and kaytee. Maybe late feeding and too much feeding . Parents are around they should help on learning them how to feed alone cause they do not drink eat seeds or bred .Smal almost 300 gr big 350 gr Lesion in the small is about to fall Maybe a resistant canker I wonder how many days more antibiotic the small need after this lesion falls so it will be 100% clear.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 


Can you tell if the Vomit has any mucous or odor or color aspects? Fermenting?


How do you prepare the Formula?


Images of today's poops?


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

No mucus just kaytee Poops seems ok exept little dry Gave fluis to them Maybe less feeding and no late feeding. I have put in the formula little oil water from vinar little liquid form late feeding yesterday


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

That is from the night


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, do you know which one vomited, you can sometimes tell as the area around their beak will be a little crusty/sticky. You can back off on the feeding just a bit and really make sure the crop is empty before feeding again. Late feeding should not really cause a bird to vomit, at least I have never had it happen, them feeling like too much is in the crop can sometimes do it and new food (Kaytee) put in on old food, that has not passed from the crop can do it as well. Now that the big bird is at 350 grams you could try not feeding him in the morning meds/fluid alone and then just seeds/small bread for him, then 8pm 1 feeding of Kaytee. George, please tell me the how much oil/honey you are using in the Kaytee, as if this measurement is off, this could also cause a bird to bring back up their food, plus food being too thick will also cause this. When I have had a sick bird vomit like this I will tube 7mL of warm water with 2 drops of ACV (apple cider vinegar) in it and allow this to pass from the crop before feeding any Kaytee again, make sure the crop has gone very flat, nothing in it.

Can you post a few photos of their droppings?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I am not sure maybe the small one If it is not late feeding then maybe too much oliva in kaytee Today i fed them twice no prob whitout olive in kaytee I gave them fluids also After the lesion falls ( tomorrow) how many days do we need under medication for full recovery and 100% clean


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

How much oliva?


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

That is from today 1/4 tea spoon in 60 ml of kaytee maybe more oliva I wait 5-6 hours before feeding again i am not sure about flat crop I heard the big coughing


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Today poop


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, 1/4 teaspoon (1.25mL) in 60mL of Kaytee is not too much at all (this is what I was thinking you may have done, put too much), but this is much less than I said you could add (1mL to 20mL Kaytee), so I don't think this is the problem. Maybe too thick or new food on old. Anyway, two feedings with no more vomiting is good, but keep an eye out and make very sure the crop is flat before feeding anytime.

The dropping looks good for being on formula (Kaytee). This Sunday, I believe will mark 2 weeks on meds and this will almost certainly be enough time to clear them of infection. I have a feeling the lesion you are seeing in the mouth is just dead tissue/debris that in time will fall off and is most likely not an active infection anymore, but keep up the liquid Metronidazole drops until Sunday as well as the other meds.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The big one alos has around the eye some white exofoliated tissue I put worm water and took it out maybe infection


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George could you post a photo of the eye, with the Baytril, Doxycycline and Metronidazole they are on, I am not too concerned about bacterial infection with them.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## khawaja kashif (Aug 15, 2010)

*APPLE CIDER VINEGAR 1CC+BROWN SUGAR 1TBS+2GRAM BAKING SOODA add in one cup of water add give them 2 ur bird with the help of 10cc syring.and also give them amoxicilline trihydrate 1gram in 1/2 liter water for consequent 5 dayz*


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 



How are you preparing the Formula?


Mix-and-feed?


Mix a large batch, use as you go?


Refrigerated between uses?


How is it warmed?


Etc...



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Mix and feed 40 C drops off spoon 
I fed them 3 times yesterday no prob The big ( x small) and the bigger look fine fat birds 350 big 400 bigger The lesion in the big is getting smaller there is only small lesion left .Release them tomorrow or wait for the wild I am sure they are prepared for this. Should i wait the lesion disapear completely ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, sounds very good, you've done a great job with these two guys. You can cut back on the Kaytee to just one late feeding to see if we can get these guys to start to self-feed more on the seeds. I would like to have Phil give his opinion on release, as he has more experience with this part than I do, so hold on a bit and let's see what he thinks.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 



Do these Pigeons 'Nuzzle'? Do they probe and assert with their Beaks, asking to be fed?


Images of today's poops?


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Sometimes they move their beeks up to get feed when tubefeeding . One problem is when preparing kaytee is 40 but by the time i feed the second one could be 35 or less sometimes ( i mean in 5-10 minutes time) could this cause vomiting .They sometimes drink water and eat seeds despite that today i kept them without food till 2 o clock but certainly they do not go for it Tonight when trying to check crop they attack me again and after that they were so nervous that they attack each other Too much medicine causes brain dysfunction Poops i will send early in the morning


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Looks Like Squab ( Baby Pigeons ) Poop to me --- Give The parent birds plenty of water and good seed food ...... and someone mentioned adding apple vinegar to the water - its acidic and keeps parasites out of the water - but i was told 2 teaspoon fulls added to 2 gallons of water -- try to do these 3 things -- and I believe these birds will be just fine -- They are wild type birds correct ? Let nature take its course -- these birds have been living out in nature on thier own for many years - but it is nice to help them when you can and keep feeding and giving them good stuff -- cat food yuck ! Good Luck -- Let us know when they take flight -- any pictures of the actual Birds ? ( Much more pleasant then the popp .... lol ! )


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> One problem is when preparing kaytee is 40 but by the time i feed the second one could be 35 or less sometimes ( i mean in 5-10 minutes time) could this cause vomiting.


George, yes, food tubed at an improper temperature could cause it to be regurgitated. Although you hopefully don't have a lot of feedings left to do for them, what you can do is set the bowl you mix the Kaytee into another larger bowl of warm water to keep it from cooling down between feeding the small and big one.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George,




Formula is best prepared in advance, using cold Water ( if Tap Water, let it run for several minutes first ) and then the formula should be frozen...

Then thawed, warmed in a Pan of Hot Water, strring constantly to warm it uniformly...for use.

Re-Freeze after use.


This hydrates the Formula perfectly.


When people make the formula and feed it right then, it will never be correctly hydrated, and will tend to thicken in the Crop and to be hard to pass, or slow to pass, inviting Yeast/Candida problems to occur...or worse.


Never microwave.


Consistency should be like melted Ice Cream on a Hot Day.

Serving temp should be a little below body temp.


I will post some into in a little while about feeding Seeds.


Do you have small whole Seeds suitable for PIgeons?

Canary Seed, Finch Seed, Dove mixes?



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

So make kaytee formula first with cold vinar water put to fridge then when feeding warm it up to 40 Should i wait the lesion to drop off It a tiny one


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ho George,


Throwing up can have many causes...

One of them, is formula which is soured for having been made and not frozen between uses, or which is too thick, or which thickens after being fed, or which is made from Tap water where the Water was merely turned on and not let run a while first, or which for any of these things, has begun to create conditions in the Crop, which give rise to Yeast or Candida or other ( even if mild ) infections.


Probably it would be fine by now for the two Pigeons to have small whole Seeds.


Do you have Bird Seed on hand?


And if so, what kind is it?



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

small seeds mixed type like in a photo i posted I offered them but they do not eat


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 


There are 11 pages here.


Lol...


I have no idea where or when a Photo of Seeds had been posted.


The question is, do you have, or can you get, Bird Seed, such as Finch Seed or Canary Seed mixes?


These will be a variety of small whole Seeds, suitable for younger or invalid Pigeons, or for Pigeons who have been sick, but are getting well.


If you have or can get such Seeds, then, we can discuss how you might go about working with these two Pigeons, for them to be fed Seeds, and, for them to learn to peck and self feed with Seeds.


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

About the small lesion left today 2 weeks under meds i stop now Do i have to worry about that lesion As soon as the lesion drops i will release them


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, any chance you could post a photo of the little one's mouth area? Post a photo of the seeds you are using as well (close-up shot).

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

There is a small lesion that is confined with a stalk to the mucosa It seems dead tissue ( its like an empty baloon as it was big before )but can not remove this no matter how many times i try Because i tried to remove it recently i will try again in a couple of hours and then send foto


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

lesions is off i took it out all ok I used vinar for antiseptic and one drop flagyl


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK George, I think these are the size seeds Phil was hoping to see, let's see what he has to say.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I think tomorrow it s time Parents are around The small looks like kid been to the doctor What do you think


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 



If you can softly grasp or softly massage his Beak, from the front, warm 
slightly moist finger tip pads...horizontally, not from above...


You can get either of them 'Nuzzling' ( Asking to be fed, since your gesture in their 
terms, is one of inviting him or her to be fed...)


You can feed whole Seeds, smaller size whole Seeds are best to begin 
with, by using your Hand, to imitate closely-enough, the operation of his 
Pigeon-Parent's Beak and Throat, from which your youngster originally had been 
eating, and he or she will inetantly remember 'how' of course.


The Seeds roll down the trough of your fingers, Hand tilted slightly toward 
him, as seen in this image, here -






Image was taken as we were headed up to the up-stroke and almost there, 
where, Hand Tilts a little more, for the Seeds to roll into his opening Beak.


This is an easy for them, easy for you, Natural, safe, happy way for them to 
be fed, and, they understand it instantly, participating with enthusiasm.


He will wish to have a natural rythum of moving his Head and Neck somewhat 
up, and down...his Beak opens on the up stroke, and, he swallows on the down 
stroke.

He will know the rythum, so just gently initiate a slight up and down, then 
follow his lead.



It is effecient, and allows you to provide a good sized Meal, in only a 
minute or two.



Lay out a Towel, on a table top, and feed him there, thus catching any 
fallen Seeds.




Good luck!



Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

No sucess They dont like to be touched either despite i feed them so many days they hit me and run . The important thing is that they are clear thank to you and karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh well...

Maybe just 'peck' the Seeds with your crook'd index Finger...so they can see you doing it.

Also pick up and drop little finger-tip-pinches of Seeds, so they can see the Seeds being picked up and falling into the Seed Bowl, and, they will get the idea and begin pecking also.


Phil
Lv


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

no good news parents didnt even have a look st them i can not beieve thisi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...I would not expect too much from the Parents now.


The care and education of the two youngsters, from here on, is going to be up to you to provide.


Or, for you to find someone who has Pigeons, in good conditions, where your two Birds can be socialized to the society of Adult Birds, ideally, pre-release rehabbed Wild Adult Birds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> no good news parents didnt even have a look st them i can not beieve thisi


George, did you let them out on your balcony to be with their parents? Could you please provide much more detail on what is going on.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

karyn i released them this morning when their parents came .last feeding was this morning .the parents didnot pay attention to them they flied nearby balcony and now they are siting in the building infront of mine with their parents i am sure they are hungry siting all day there


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

They were very anxious in the morning looking from the window . When they were on the balcony and most of the time they were like lost in space. The parents came in my home and eat but do not care about kids Smalls are siting near me and are hungry they just sit there all time without food I am not sure if they know how to look for food The only case is if they came in my balcony and eat


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Some fotos today In circle small On the right parents


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, the parent's bond is not what it was from a lack of direct contact with them, plus at the age they are now at there is a natural separation that takes place as the parents lessen contact to allow them to become independent birds , so the parents may now look at these two guys as "just two other birds" in many ways. You will need to put out a few seed dishes apart from one another, so the parents do not "run" the "babies" away from the food and scatter a good amount of seeds and small bread pieces around (I know this will be a bit messy) so that the two young ones can learn by watching the parents hunt, peck and eat seeds, use a pretty large area so it reduces chances of the adults feeling "their" area is being infringed on (water dishes as well, of course). They now have a chance at having a life because of what you did for them.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

so they do not recognise even their parents cause they act as birds they've never met before and their parents do not recognise them id it so with pigeons they live like solo independent animals not bonding to anything


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

As Dobato mentions...

If they can see other Pigeons pecking Seeds, they will soon wish to emulate them, so, multiple Bowls or scattered Seeds maybe, will encourage this.

Probably that will be enough really - once they begin pecking Seeds with success, they will manage alright from there in further progress and short flights and exploring and flying off to hang out with other Pigeons, and so on.

When hand rearing, if Seed pecking is not introduced to them early, it can then take a while sometimes for the older youngster to figure it out...they can get used to 'food' as something done for them, rather than something they do.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

they did not come back maybe they are sleeping where other birds used to they seem to follow them they are strong and made few rides the only thing is that will be difficult for them to find food cause is already difficult for experienced birds and these small pigeons do not want to come home again even for feeding


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, they do form strong bonds with their mates, but there is not the kind of bond, the way we know it, between a parent and offspring once the parents have raised the bird up and taught him to be independent. The young become just other birds to compete with for food, shelter and the best perching places.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

the problem is that when i feed them many birds come 
more than 10 and they do not let them eat and i can not handle some many birds in my balcony


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> the problem is that when i feed them many birds come
> more than 10 and they do not let them eat and i can not handle some many birds in my balcony


George, this is part of what I meant by being messy, but it would be very good if for the 7-10 days you could offer food for Big & Little, even if others come, to help support them with food until they get their bearings and it will help them learn quicker what they need to do to survive.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Good news they came and eat They did not seem to me like starving birds they eat normal portion of seeds Seem they are doing well Many many birds come and that is a mess When i come close they stay while other birds fiy away I dont know what these birds recognise that s why i am asking you Parents let them eat when together. Is those birds behaviour just a copy of actions of others i do not understand


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George, 


Well, your two Pigeons are young and still figuring things out as they are growing up and learning and trying things.


Glad to hear they appear to be doing well with this!


Just continue with what you are doing, and, things should continue to work out well.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, very good news that they came and ate, thanks for letting us know. As Phil says, keep doing what you doing and hopefully everything will work out just fine for them. You did good with them.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It can be quite a bit of work and involvement in many ways..! As you have come to know...


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

A pigeon who comes and eat with them has some lesions in the head like polypoid big ones .What is this Is that dangerous for other birds. There are many problems 1. My birds are stupid so are their parents they came last to eat and i need many time to get them go to the right place they are afraid a lot 2. So many birds i can not count and can not handle I prefer feed them than facing this mess


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, now that you have helped these birds you will naturally start to notice when other birds have problems. The lesions you see on the other bird could be something called pox, which is a viral infection and they could be from canker as well, without being able to see exactly what the lesions look like, it's hard to say for sure. Being a virus, there is no real cure for pox, it has to run its course and is contagious to other birds and you know what the treatment for canker is, Metronidazole. You will just have to do the best you can for Big & Little and their parents, pigeons have a pretty good internal clock and will come around at the same times during the day. If you can figure out when they like to come, perhaps you can be there when they feed, which may help, since you mention they are comfortable with you being there and other birds aren't as much.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

the problem is that they learn from other birds to be afraid of me and fly away


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, please try and do the best you can for them, as any help and support you can provide them while they are adjusting to being "wild" will really be invaluable for them.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I saw big and i thought it was small he was so thin I cant believe but maybe all these days they having nothing to eat I am worrying about small I havent seen it since yesterday i hope he is ok


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, this is why I wanted you to get as much weight on them as possible, so they would have some body mass/reserves to fall back on while they were working things out for themselves in adjusting to the wild. As I said, please try and do what you can to support them when/if they come, it will help them a lot.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you think small did not make it almost 4 days now with little food Do you think i should catch them again


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Do you think small did not make it almost 4 days now with little food Do you think i should catch them again


Ideally they should have been kept a bit longer I think, to confirm they were self-feeding well on their own. However, with the severe allergic reactions you where having to them this was hard to ask you to do, but if you think you could bear being on meds a while longer to deal with your allergies, yes, if you could catch them again to help learn to self feed better, it may be best. Also, you may want to walk around your neighborhood a bit, to have a look around to make sure Little is not in trouble somewhere and needs some help.

There is hope for Little, please have a read of this thread, about a bird that left before ready, but made it back for a little more help:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-very-bad-injury-at-the-beak-44957-4.html (start at around post #50)

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I can not understand something When their parents learned them to fly around with half weight they were ready and now they are not I do not understand the parents role in this because they do not help them to become independent birds in a tough wild area are 2 weeks too long period in order to forget them i want also to say that there are smaller birds or the same size much much clever even than their parets I hope small is ok


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George,



Usuaully, when the fledglings are starting to explore and take their first short flights, Mom is already sitting on new Eggs, in a New Nest, and Dad supervises the youngsters in an intermittent way...showing up now and then to feed and water them, and, letting them be otherwise.


As the develop further and gain muscle mass and strength, Dad continues to feed and water them, and, encourages them to follow him, for showing them grazing forraging places, where, soon, in these forays, the youngsters begin to peck, learn to drink on their own, and, acquire the modes of awareness and demeanor and response, and confidence, of the Wild others and of those conditions.


If inturrupted, and some time was lost, Dad might feel that the Clock ran out, and, his Job was done whether or not the outcome was satisfactory.


His Job now, or right around now, is to have his shifts on sitting the New Babys, and, to be with his Hen.


No one learns them to fly...they develop and grow and become able to fly, in a gradual development of muscle mass and strength.

At some point in this, Dad encourages them to fly over to him, some few feet away usually, and this distance increases as they develop more strength...and, or to follow him, once the youngsters have shown enough development and stamina, which they have gained and practiced in short distances.


He has to judge how far they can fly, to gauge his plans for having them follow him to show them areas of forrage and grazing.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I still suffer from red spots especially during the night can not concetrate much feal weak. I remember i suffered from headaches and diarrhea during taking care of them. I must be infected from the pigeons


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

are those parasites living in theirr feathers causing these allergies. I found one spray for parasites maybe i should have had used it while taking care of them The one i hate is that flat fly It is so difficult to kill it i hate it These allergiogones not only caused allergy but they were infected too Although rare in europe fungal disease is something someone must always consider in America is more often 

I havent see them they changed place cause people returned home in the balcony pigeons used to stay The good thing is that I saw one parent guiding the big one let's hope they guide the small one too I be checked around and did not find smallI I checked and noticed that they keep drinking water in my balcony


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

There is nothing you would have contracted from the Birds.


If you have allergies, it should be evaluated by an able Endocrinoloist, or Thyroid specialist or gifted MD familiar with the glandular hierarchy of the Body.

This would be corrected by diet...and also Natural Suppliments.

There are no Avian Exoparasites which cause allergic reactions, so far as I have ever heard.

The very fine white 'dust' which is a byproduct of Bird's Feather growth, can be something some people may find mildly irritating to their Nasal Passages, but, I have never heard or read of anything more extreme than that - a mild, momentary sense of irritation to the Nose, if a Bird 'fluffs' their Feathers literally right on or in one's face.


Chlorinated/Floridated public Water...hormones and antibodies and chemicals in factory produced meats and dairy, GMO foods, are known to underlie conditions or to create conditions which result in allergies, and other autoimmune disorders, sometimes very severe ones...and or to occasion inordinate sensitivities to otherwise benign and ordinary materials/animals/fabrics/dusts/foods/etc.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Allergy can be to anything You find that when it happens during contact with aleergiogones. Can cause headaches diarhoea But some red spots i have there is pus it means infection not just inflammatory reaction .

GOOD NEWS 

THey are fine they came and eat they feel my balcony as their space and hit other birds there is one with pox and what should i do with this bird they hit it maybe is dangerous for them Small is the great fighter he is not so afraid as big and hit other birdsI had to make one trick i made other birds be afraid of me so the food is near my door so that only small and big come other afraid I think they handle well wild they are thin but ok


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, this is good news, thanks for the photos. I think it would be good if you could also put down some small pieces of bread if possible, Big & Small really need to get to know bread means food, outside of seeds, your support efforts of them will make a big difference in their chance of a successful adjustment to the wild. With the bird with possible pox, this bird is just trying to survive as well, and since from the photos does not share food and water dishes with your bird "family" the chances of them becoming infected from this bird are reduced, If the bird can make it through the worst part of the infection, it will heal in a few weeks time and then usually have lifetime immunity from getting it again. There is also a chance this bird could actually have mouth canker and would befit from treatment with Metronidazole, do you think you could somehow get a photo of this bird up close, perhaps by using some bread pieces to get it close to you?

Also, I don't think it would hurt to have a your doctor have a look at the red spots you are speaking of, in case a course of antibiotics may be in order for you.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi George,


Very good..!


Glad they are returning and pecking nicely and continuing with the last phases of their growing up...with your kind and contued help!



I may have forgot something earlier, in regard to exoparasites -


Mites, which can occur in/on a very wide range of small Animals, and, Birds.


Mites, depending on one's own unique system, can leave tiny to large red bumps or welts, which may or may not itch, or, which may or may not have mild infection.

Spider Bites ( having no connection to Birds or small Animals ) can do the same, and are much more likely to have a necrotic center or mild infection in some individuals...but, Mite bites can do this also.

Spider Bites ( even from very tiny Spiders) can cause nausia, vomiting or other systemic or global effects in suseptible individuals.


Some people's systems are very sensitive to Spider Bites, or, to Mite bites...other's, are not.


I smoke, am pretty well Vegetarian, I avoid Dairy products, I avoid processed foods, GMO foods, I avoid anything with 'Corn Sweetner' in it, I eat raw Garlic, and I try and keep my B-Vitamins up...and to have some intake of Ocean Fish, Cod Livers or other sources of natural Iodine and Omega 3 Fatty Acids.


All in all, any context where people are being bitten by Spiders or Mites or Insects of any sort, I virtually never got or get bitten, and, if I did or do, it is uneventful, and nothing to even notice.

Other people, people who are suseptible, indeed can suffer terribly.


Mites are not widely or well recognised, or understood.

They are too small to see usually.

They inject a poison or enzyme, which liquifies the tissue...as is the case also with Spider bites.


Mites are in fact extremely tiny Spiders.



If you have been getting bit by Mites, a savvy old fashioned MD, or, maybe, a savvy Detematologist, would likely be able to recognise the symptoms as possible Mite bites...but, these can be very hard to distinguish from Spider bItes, or Bed Bug bites...since individual reactions can vary widely.


Bed Bugs are now sweeping the World, and, these are arguably much worse than Mites, and, will tend only to bite at Night, causing no pain or sensation when biting, but great discomfort and red welts, as the hours pass after waking and getting up.


One can get them anywhere, Hotels, other's Car Seats, Theatre Seats, Bus Seats, friends Couches, borrowed clothing, on and on.


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The family come and eat exept from small who live in a different neighborhood he comes sometimes he is real survivor The only problem is that despite i made afraid of me the rest of the birds two small birds one with pox comes and eat with them What should i do i can not get them off .I am surprised how the big one hit other birds when he is at home even his parents and they are afraid of small big I do not know what to do with the sick one they eat from the same plate I runafter it to not enter the house but he is fearless as the other small who always makes sounds like eeeeeeeeeee when other birds hit it but do not go away he keep trying to eat no matter what


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, it has been a little over a week since you let them go, this first week will have been the hardest for them, and by no means "safe" just yet, I feel that they do have a good chance now.

The solution I have for you is not a perfect solution, as I said the other sick birds are just trying to survive as well. Use smaller dishes for the seeds and if/when the birds you speak of do feed from these dishes, just throw the seeds out and clean with a 9:1 bleach solution (9 parts water, 1 part laundry bleach, this goes for water dishes as well if they drink from them) and refill with fresh seeds/water. In a few weeks the pox will go away if the sick birds make it through the worst part.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

they eat bread like crazy they both come with their parent I was wrong about that it s a little mess in my balcony all pigeod in the neighbourlearn toward george s place today it was so funny as many had bath imItate try to learn my smalls not to be afraid of me so they come in my home and eat so that other birds stay outside one is sticky with parent I think is the small I thought he visit other neighbour but now he is in my balcony the big one is very funny as today was the first time to hear him making that men d sound run after other birds and eat in my home


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, sorry to hear about all the mess, but I guess you are now the most popular person in your neighborhood with all your pigeon friends . Glad to hear they have taken to eating bread and that all the family is doing well. I don't know what the future holds for these little guys, but you should smile each time you see them, as they probably would not be alive right now if not for you.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Quite so!



Tranistioning from 'mess', to organized and managed conditions...is the challenge from here on.


That is my challenge, and, it is perpetual, too...


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

The bird with lesions in head has canker i saw his throat he is full poor one he is thin too I am surprised by the willing of him to live i want to help him but til wenseday i have some important things to do maybe later i will help him i hope it s not too late for him


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, if you could even do a few bread "pills" with some Metronidazole, following the instructions I gave you before, it may help this bird a great deal until you can devote time to him. Please try your best and keep us updated.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi EVERYBODY it s been a long time My small birds are big now The story goes like this. Before 7 months i had to move to a new apartment. I could nt leave my small behind I was so afraid for them My small returned back to me so thin. and i had to give food for 2 weeks. After that i couth the big one too and they said goodbuy to their friends and we moved to our new home . The big one was so pretty and really BIG He did ok to the new place and found one black pigeon girl to fall in love The small one after gained a few gr i gave him freedom They were ok I keep feed them. But today my small came to a little home i made for and stay there like needed my help I cought my small and saw this in his tail I dont know waht this is ? Please help i gave him a little baytril today


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi George, thanks for the update on how things went with your two little guys. It sounds like things went pretty well until this latest issue with Small. The photo is not quite as clear as I would like, but it looks to me, with the loss of the tail and what look to be wounds on the side, like Small may have survived a predator attack, most likely a cat or a dog. Keep Small on the Baytril for 7 days as a precaution against infection and although they can fly OK without a tail, I would keep Small with your for a few weeks to allow the tail to grown in and for Small to fully recuperated.

Glad you well able to catch her/him once again and help,

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I cant believe they attack my small I dont know i am afraid leaving him again I saw some birds attacking pigeons They are like white birds that normally catch fish I live nearby sea I saw them attacking and i couldntbelieve it Thank you karin for your help


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

I am thinking that the neighbour i used to live was more piecefull In the new neighbour I keep feeding them why h e tried to find food from the street I dont know i will feed him for 7 days and keep him some week but then what to do


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, under most circumstances a predator will not be able to catch a healthy pigeon, they can, but many times when they do catch one it may be because they are not feeling 100%, so they are a little slower with their reflexes which allows a predator just that tiny bit of extra time to catch them. While Small is with you we should, outside of the recent injuries, give Small a good going over to make sure there are no other issues going on. Have a look down Small's throat and make sure there is no canker, we want things in the mouth clear and pink, also, if you could weigh Small and report the weight and take a few photos of Small and a close-up of Small's fresh droppings, this would be good.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Can i use betadine solution for their wounds to put to their skin


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> Can i use betadine solution for their wounds to put to their skin


George, yes, you can apply a bit of Betadine to the wounds, this would be fine. Most times we recommend that you apply a thin coating of an antibiotic ointment, such as Neosporin, to the wounds. The ointment will help prevent any local infection issues, but just as importantly keep the wound "moist" allowing it to heal faster and cleaner. Any ointment residue is later washed off with a bit of soap and warm water once the area is healed up.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

My small is much better .His tail is ok. He is so good .So quiet He stays whenever you put him He doesnt make noise excellent company for someone spending most of his time reading. I dont want to free him again but i think after some weeks i should cause he will be bored inside .but so far no complain he enjoys the view from the window he love to be in a warm place and eat fresh food drink fresh water. I took him away from my parents home in a place outside athens where i live now. His brother whith his black girlfriend are ok on my parents home and i am planning to take him back there. When i live now there are some wild birds eating meat and many cats so i am afraid to let him outside Can i train him to avoid cats. Should i give him some Katee to eat He is wonderfull


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> My small is much better .His tail is ok. He is so good .So quiet He stays whenever you put him He doesnt make noise excellent for company for someone spending most of his time reading. I dont want to free him again but i think after some weeks i should cause he will be bored inside .but so far no complain he enjoys the view from the window he love to be in a warm place and eat fresh food drink fresh water. I took him away from parents home in a place outside athens where i live now. His brother whith his black girlfriend are ok in my parents home and i am planning to take him back there. When i live now there some wild birds eating meat and many cats so i am afraid to let him outside Can i train him to avoid cats. Should i give him some Katee to eat He is wonderfull


George, glad to hear Small is doing much better. Just a thought, and that is Small may be a she and not a he, females tend to be quieter and smaller in body frame than males and a good percentage of the time when sibling proves to be a male, odds are high, if the other sibling is smaller and does not show male tendencies, that they are a female.

You can not train Small to avoid cats, avoiding predators, including cats, is a very strong part of their natural instincts, what we can do, as I mentioned earlier, is make sure they are strong of body and not ill in anyway to impede their ability to avoid being hurt of killed by a predator. Not quite sure why you would want to feed Small some Kaytee if she is doing well, please explain. Just to check, outside of being quite, does she seem strong and is she flying well, what is her weight like?

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

she is strong and fly well i just want to make her more fat


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Let me introduce you some birds from the old neighbour. One white beauty bird and father of my small


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

one more Father is very very strong


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> she is strong and fly well i just want to make her more fat


George, I know you have tube feed before and know how to do it, but no matter how experienced a person is with tube feeding, every time a bird is tube feed there is a small risk that they can aspirate some of the liquid food (food goes down into their breathing tube). So even though there are times we have no other choice than to tube feed, if they are eating well on their own, and we want to put some extra weight on a bird, it is always best just to increase the amount of foods they really favor, like raw, unsalted sunflower seed hearts, safflower seeds and raw, cut/broken-up Spanish peanut pieces. Try these for her and see if this help, it also would be good to get a real weight on her to see just where she is right now, to be able to see if the treats help with her weight, this is important as we want her strong well weighted, but not fat/heavy, as this will slow her down in avoiding predators.

Thanks for the photos, these birds are lucky to have you looking out for them.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

Today i saw something that was no good When passing by i saw some pigeons in a park to hit like crazy another and something like raping it and kill it after that i tried to move them away but when i walked a few distance these pigeons returned and jumped over again the dead pigeon and started to hit and rape again I CAN NOT $%$^%^ how is it possible pigeons so wild insticts ...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

George, sometimes their instincts are to drive an obviously sick flock member from the flock by attacking it, and it seems the ill bird was too hurt or sick to make an escape. Then, unlike you or I, they were unaware they had succeeded in killing the one they were attacking so the assault continued, even though the bird you speak of had already been killed.

Karyn


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## GeorgeOm (Aug 6, 2010)

We have news. The big one made family with one black pigeon girl But the strange thing is i see the big one with two girls I am not sure if the third bird that looks alike the other female bird is with them I kept the small bird in my home and became much big Gained so much weight She is strong and healthy . I am thinking about buying a bird the one with small beak that she is no alone> How can i be sure that my bird is female. Is that a good choice or not ? Could they become couple ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GeorgeOm said:


> We have news. The big one made family with one black pigeon girl But the strange thing is i see the big one with two girls I am not sure if the third bird that looks alike the other female bird is with them I kept the small bird in my home and became much big Gained so much weight She is strong and healthy . I am thinking about buying a bird the one with small beak that she is no alone> How can i be sure that my bird is female. Is that a good choice or not ? Could they become couple ?


Hi George, glad the hear Big now has a family and Small is doing well with you. The 3 ways I know to be 100% sure of the sex of a bird are, surgical sex testing (the old way and not 100% safe), DNA testing of either a fresh feather(s) or small bit of blood (a toe nail is carefully clipped so a drop or two of blood comes out, this is absorbed by bit of paper towel and this is sent in), or if the bird lays eggs. Even the most experienced pigeon people once and a while will get it wrong using the many tired and true ways pigeon people use to differentiate the sexes (suggestions below to read up on this information), without using two of the tests just mentioned, but because these mostly rely on subjective observances of the bird, they are not 100% accurate, although some of the old guys are very, very good at it using these ways and are seldom wrong (but you are not an old pigeon guy just yet ) . Over here, for about $20, you can have the DNA test done, in Greece I am not sure what is available. Here is a link to one place that does it, because it is DNA based, if you mailed them a sample and payment, they could do the test for you, it would just take a bit longer than if you where over here for mail delivery to get to them and they could notify you results by email/online, you could always contact them for more information.

http://www.avianbiotech.com/

Also use the search feature of Pigeon-Talk and do a search here of "sexing birds", "sexing babies", "how to tell the sex of a pigeon", "sex methods" and "pendulum test" and you will have some interesting reading on the methods used to tell the sex of a pigeon, without medical/lab testing.

Karyn


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