# Found 2 baby Pigeons



## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Hello, yesterday we found 2 baby Pigeons in a nest, on the ground, no parent in site.

I have no idea the age. They are pink with yellow fuzzy hair. I've fed them a few times (last night and twice today) on a mixture of baby cereal and water. (2 water to 1 baby cereal).

I've been looking and looking, and nowhere do ANY sites say the amount each feeding. I've been doing 2-3 Millileters of the mixture per feeding each. So a total of 6-9 ML of the stuff they have gotten from me so far.

From random pictures i've seen, I'd say 4-7 days old. Pin feathers are barely starting to come in. But are mainly just pink with their yellow fuzz.

How much should I feed them each feeding? (Millimeters wise). And should I make it more of the cereal than water now, or keep 2:1?

If someone could tell me a common way to feed them as they age. As in something like this.

4-7days: You should feed them this much each feeding, this many times a day.
8-10 days: Same as above
etc etc. Like that would be greatly appreciated.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Check the resources section: "I found a pigeon, now what?"

Where are you located, roughly? We may have an experienced member near you. (I am in Cologne, Germany). Baby birds can be tricky because they are so small. I found two in 2004, and one died 13 days later, possibly from sour crop.

Larry

Okay ... I see that your post is in the section I mentioned. I'll keep looking.

The reason I ask where you are ... Kaytee Exact is perfect for baby birds, but I think it's available only in USA. We have members from UK and Australia and all over. Brand names vary.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm in Michigan (USA). The food itself isn't an issue. It's HOW much to feed them and how often. Everywhere i've read is totally different and contradict each other.

The only information no sites i've looked at have (probably 10+) is HOW much to feed them. 

Like I said, 4-7 days old, next to no pin feathers. Mainly pink with yellow fuzz.

I've taken care of adult Hawks that were injured in the past, but never had to deal with baby birds. One is slightly bigger then the other, but of course that doesn't matter now as both will be getting the same food. (May give the little one a tad more).

So if you know how much to feed them and how often, it'd be appreciated.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

This link is from another PT post:

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Recipes/handfeedinghelp.htm


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks. So since it didnt say in her post. Between 4-7 days old, they should be getting 6-14 ish ML per feeding every 5-6 hours?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Seiryu,

I' am avoiding giving you a direct answer, because it has been a while, and I did not measure precisely.

And, there are other members, much more experienced, who will jump in shortly.

I have read that the crop should be empty between feedngs. (I kept the baby pigeon who died, Chocolate, and his larger, male nest-mate Vanilla/Pidgiepoo, stuffed all the time, because I did not have regular internet access and was not even sure at first what type of bird they were. That is why I think Chocolate may have developed sour crop and died from it.

The skin of the crop at that age is quite transparent, and you can see the contents. I fed them twice a day, until they were _bulging_. I made sure their crops were not empty for long, and that may have been my mistake. 

If they appear lethargic, unresponsive, that is a danger signal. They will sleep a lot, but I think they should be bright-eyed and curious when woken, and they should wake easily.

There may be some variations between individual birds, so that is another reason it is good to have advice from someone more experienced.

When I have a baby bird or a sick or injured rescue, I tend to worry myself almost to death, check on them frequently, even in the wee hours of the night. I have held many a bird in my hand next to me while I slept. I have an adult PMV (paramyxovirus) rescue right now, a weak flyer, maybe quite old, who is recovering nicely since December 11th.

Pay close attention to their poops, frequency, color, consistency. If they poop frequently, that means something must be going in ad passing through. If you can weigh them before and after feedings, and make notes on anything remarkable, that may help when you have questions. You indicate you have some experience, but I mention these things anyway.

Larry


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks. Oh I forgot to mention, their eyes are not open yet. Would that help more to guess their age?

I havn't looked too carefully, but i don't think I could see the crop contents. They seem to like to head bobble and move quite a bit at this time. Can almost keep their heads up at all times, but still sort of fall sideways.

I'll probably shoot for 5-7 ML (see how they look) and then go from there each feeding, every 6 hours.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It would really help if you could post a picture.
In the meantime, I would start with the smaller amount of formula and see how long it takes for it to pass through. The crop should balloon out. You can gradually increase the amount you feed as the babies grow or if the formula is processed in a short amount of time.
The MOST CRITICAL thing to know is ...NEVER ADD FOOD TO A CROP THAT ALREADY HAS FOOD IN IT. Wait until the crop is empty first.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

Newborn: 5 to 8ml, 3 to 4 hours apart, 5 feedings a day.
Nestling: 15 to 20ml, every 4 hours, 5 feedings a day.
Fledgling: 25 to 35ml, every 4 hours, 4 times a day.

hope that helps


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Your last post came while I was typing my last post.

When the baby is full, he will get sleepy or dozy. Not so eager and anxious to be fed. Pidgiepoo used to run away across the plate to escape being fed too much! (When he could move on his legs).

Tablespoon is 15 ml. I always fed them a couple of tablespoons (consistency of oatmeal or porridge). Sometimes the crop seemed half the size of the rest of the body. Don't know if this is how it should be, though.

Parent pigeons feed "crop milk" to babies while they are young (sloughed off cells of the crop lining, mixed with partially digested seeds). Kaytee Exact supposedly has the stuff baby birds need. Don't know if human infant food has it.

Also have read pigeons eat ten percent of their body weight daily. Babies double in size and weight almost every day or thereabouts. 

I will try to find more links.

Keep them on a firm surface such as a towel, so they will not develop splay legs. Pidgiepoo had a slightly splayed left leg.

Larry


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Ok. Well the food I am using now, is on the white side. And it's hard to tell if the crop is full or not. I just fed them each 3 ML about 1-1.5hours ago. How do I know the crop is empty or not?

I am probably going to go out today and get the Kaytee formula. I'm going to take a picture and post it soon. Within a few minutes here.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Ok here they are. There's only 2, but one picture was kind of bad =P


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Ston3d, For those 3 classifications. How many days old are each classification? Like, Newborn is 1 day to 5 days old etc. 

Thanks. I am also not keeping these and they will be released. How many days old is good to start weaning them onto seeds and what not?

Newborn: 5 to 8ml, 3 to 4 hours apart, 5 feedings a day.
Nestling: 15 to 20ml, every 4 hours, 5 feedings a day.
Fledgling: 25 to 35ml, every 4 hours, 4 times a day.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

These little ones are so cute, and so VULNERABLE.

They can lose body heat rapidly. If their condition becomes what I will call _static_, where they are burning calories to maintain core temperature and are not using the calories to add bulk and weight, then they are in serious trouble.

They need a supplementary heat source. I used an electric heating pad (European) set on low, with a couple of layers of fabric or towel between them and the pad. Checked the temp with my hand every half hour or so (I am retired).

The crop is like a bag or sack hanging in front of them, like a woman with a large bosom. It should feel poochy and squishy when you gently poke it with your finger. 

Larry


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

They are in my "Lizard Room" Which stays at 80-85 degrees F. Which I read is plenty.

Any ideas on age?

Also yes the crop feels squishy, but how do I know if it's full or if they are getting enough.

As you can see, they have a lot of the yellow fur and the mixture i'm using is white at the moment. So it's really hard to tell.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Seiryu said:


> Ston3d, For those 3 classifications. How many days old are each classification? Like, Newborn is 1 day to 5 days old etc.
> 
> Thanks. I am also not keeping these and they will be released. How many days old is good to start weaning them onto seeds and what not?
> 
> ...


These feeding measurements are guidelines and guidelines only.
These babies are very young and in the first category.
The crop is right below the throat. In the pictures, they look very full...almost too full. If you add food to old food, the babies can get very sick and most often they die.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Hmm, like I said. I've fed them 3 times total.

Once being last (at about 10pm), and then again 8:30am, and then again at around 1:30pm.

Each feeding was only 2-3 ML (so 6-9ML total). So I imagine their crops can't be as full as you think, unless they arn't excreting properly?

I'm not sure, but i doubt i am over feeding, with only 2-3ML per feeding.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Various links:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/various-methods-to-feed-young-squabs-9682.html?referrerid=560

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Crop stasis or sour crop in birds

http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Birds&story_no=1548

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http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon5.html

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Pictures of growing baby bird

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Age: I'd say five days or less.

Here's a link to Terry/TAWhatley 's page of Ebony and Ivory, with pics.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f24/heres-my-babies-32377.html?highlight=ebony


I use an inexpensive kitchen digital battery-powered scale, increments in grams (Germany) costing about 10 Euros or 15 dollars.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks for the links. From the pictures, i guess mine are 3-4 days old. Eyes not open yet (Which from those, they were open at 5-6 days).

I just fed them and think i'm getting a hang of the crop being full thing.

Felt it before feeding, was squishy and could "Push it in" of course, not hard. Fed them each 2.25 ML and their crops were 3/4 full roughly.

*Note: I am NOT directly putting the food into their crop. I've never done it or seen it done and don't want to take chances. They swallow very well.

My only issues now are as follows:

How do I know the crop has completely emptied?

At what ages do I start adding more and more food, then water into the Mix etc? (A timeline of this would be nice).

And lastly, when do I start introducing hard foods?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The crop will feel deflated when it is empty.
You can slowly gradually the amount you are feeding every day as every day the babies will get bigger. 
Sometimes by the time baby Pigeons are 14-17 days old, they can eat seed and shown to eat on their own. At this age they tend to gorge and their crop can become impacted with too much seed so you need to be careful to offer them just a bit. About this same age they can be shown how to drink water. Often it takes much longer. It really does vary from bird to bird.
You still have a ways to go before they can eat and drink on their own and much longer still before they can be released.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Oh I know that! I will definitely wait for them to be able to fly (In the room they are in first) And see if they can fend for themselves.

If they can't, they'll be rehomed in a house that can take good care and have a love for them.

And yes, before the feed, their crops were deflated. Now 3/4 full abouts. 

So each day, gradually make a new mix that has a little more food than water?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Each day you can thicken the formula a little and each day you can increase the amount of formula you are feeding.
Please discard the unused formula after each use. Make a fresh batch each feeding. To the formula you can add one of the following...1 drop of organic applecider vinegar...1/4 teaspoon applesauce for human babies or a tiny, tiny bit of powdered garlic.

If you determine that a release is best for these birds, it would be best to let us instruct you as to how to do a soft release, but that is a long way off.


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## melcraven (Feb 6, 2009)

*Also found a baby pigeon - needing advice*

I rescued a pigeon from my cats mouth yesterday (4th one so now he is officially grounded). This one seems about 20 days old and not injured. He or she has been taking about 10 ml of breakfast cereal (weetbix) by syringe. He is bright eyed and tweeting a little. Slept well overnight. I have fresh water in the cage and some seedy stuff (but he is not self feeding). What else do I need to be doing? I have posted a photo - so if somebody can confirm the age that would be great. Also am a bit worried about sour crop after reading last posts. Should I feed more less often?

ta
mel


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Well, they are still alive and seem to be doing well. Head bobbling quite a bit and moving wings etc.

Picking up the Kaytee formula today. I am guessing I should get the Kaytee wild bird forumla?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

For later...you need to get a wild dove mix.

When you mix the Exact formula, use a small narrow container. I use the plastic 

prescription containers. Add the dry formula and then slowly some warm water. Let it sit 

for a minutes and adjust the consistency by adding more warm water. Don't forget to 

add either 1 drop of apple cider vinegar, 1/4 teaspoon of applesauce for human babies 

or a very scant pinch of powdered garlic.

As I said before, always discard any unused formula. After a while you will figure out 

how much you need to make without much left over.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

At what age do i need the dove formula? 

And is it the Kaytee Exact Wild Bird formula, or?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> At what age do i need the dove formula?
> 
> And is it the Kaytee Exact Wild Bird formula, or?


This is what you need to get.
http://www.petco.com/product/10053/Kaytee-Exact-Hand-Feeding-Formula-for-All-Baby-Birds.aspx

You won't need seeds for another week at least.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks! Is it worth it getting the 18 Oz or is 1 7.5 Oz going to be sufficient? From pictures i'd guess mine to be 4-5 days old.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Thanks! Is it worth it getting the 18 Oz or is 1 7.5 Oz going to be sufficient? From pictures i'd guess mine to be 4-5 days old.


I've always bought the big jar full, not the bag. You probably won't use it ALL and I'm really not sure how long this stuff can be kept. I don't feed very many baby pigeons. 
The big jar is probably cheaper money wise, but not if you don't use it all and have to throw it out.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Ya. That's what i'm trying to look at . At what age do I stop feeding them this Kaytee formula and switch to another?

There are 2 of them. It seems 2-3 ML seem to fill their crop. They've been kept warm (80-85 degrees F) and are growing some.

I may just buy the 7.5oz and go from there, it's only 1-2$ extra if I have to buy another.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Ya. That's what i'm trying to look at . At what age do I stop feeding them this Kaytee formula and switch to another?
> 
> There are 2 of them. It seems 2-3 ML seem to fill their crop. They've been kept warm (80-85 degrees F) and are growing some.
> 
> I may just buy the 7.5oz and go from there, it's only 1-2$ extra if I have to buy another.


That's what I'd do too I think, since this isn't something you'll be doing all the time. 
I've kept up with this thread but haven't posted because sometimes we get "too many cooks in the kitchen" and a person can so overwhelmed by all the info being thrown at them. 
I personally have never measured anything. I just mix it up and feed em' till their full. Of course, I AM familiar with pigeons, so I know what a full crop looks like. Some newcomers have no idea. 
Every baby I've hand raised was eating on it's own (seeds) at 16 to 17 days old. You've got a ways to go before you have to deal with that.
Now, at about 10 to 11 days, I will pop a few seeds into their mouth along with the Kaytee. Maybe a dozen or so. I especially try to do that at night at the last feeding because that's usually the longest they go without food.
I just put a seed in their mouth and let them swallow.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> I just put a seed in their mouth and let them swallow.



This is also how I feed the Kaytee. Don't know what method you're using.
Here's a video of the last two that I raised. These two were about 20 days old I think before I got them to eat on their own, but they are a different breed of pigeon and I really babied them. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJe6y8EYQRg


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks. Now one person said to eventually use dove formula. Is this needed or can I stick with Kaytee until they are on seeds?

Sorry didn't see the dozen part for seeds 

Also, I am feeding them with a cut syringe. I have no experience with crop feeding (Putting it directly in there) and don't want to damage them.

I've dealt with birds of prey. But there are a lot easier it seems than pigeons. They will squack and squack and open their mouths until they are not hungry. These Pigeons have barely chirped.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Thanks. Now one person said to eventually use dove formula. Is this needed or can I stick with Kaytee until they are on seeds?
> 
> Sorry didn't see the dozen part for seeds
> 
> ...


By dove mix, I believe they were referring to a dove *seed* mix. There's no such thing as far as I know as a dove mix as far as feed like the Kaytee. We all use the Kaytee until the birds go to a seed diet. 
Doesn't matter how you feed them as long as you're comfortable with it. I don't crop feed either. That would scare me to death. LOL
As far as chirping........give them a few more days.....they'll start seeing you coming and will go to squeaking and flapping their little featherless wings.........


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Hope so. I wish mine let me open their beaks as easy as the 2 in your video. Sometimes if I get them open, they move their head and bam, closed beak. Restart! lol Hard to get their beaks open and I can only put in roughly 1/8 ML per go. Takes a while! Don't want to take a chance on giving them too much at a time.

Oh and thanks again. Off to get the formula. Going to add the garlic like you said.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Went with the 7.5 Oz formula for now. They have a scheduled feeding in about 30minutes here. Hopefully things go well. Trying to get them on a schedule like this.

5-6am = First feed
Noon = 2nd
6pm = 3rd 
11-12Midnight = last feed

Now in your opinion (I know I have a week to go). But what seeds do they usually like/are able to eat well when I start them at 10-11days?

And generally (I know it'll differ, but on average), how much does 10-12 seeds fill up their Crop at 10-11days old?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes I was refering to a Dove seed mix and not a formula.

The schedule you have made up should be a guide. Remember to only feed when the crop is empty.
As for getting them on seeds and self feeding, like us each bird is different some will get it right away and otheres it will take longer. Usually, it's easier when there are two. 10-12 seeds per feeding would not be nearly enough.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Went with the 7.5 Oz formula for now. They have a scheduled feeding in about 30minutes here. Hopefully things go well. Trying to get them on a schedule like this.
> 
> 5-6am = First feed
> Noon = 2nd
> ...


Well, again, I never kept up with exact times I fed mine. I just fed them when their crop was empty...but, you can go with that schedule and see if it works. If they need to be fed at 10:00, just feed them....don't wait until 12:00.........I know it's easier with a schedule and that's what we do with our kids ( I think...can't remember really...LOL) but it's not necessary to go with exact times. 
I have a loft full of birds, so I buy pigeon mix in 50 lb bags.......but I believe that something like this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=9089+15266+19013&pcatid=19013
is what most here feed when they've only got a couple of birds. 
10 to 12 seeds isn't much at that age.....just gives them some substance, rather than just the liquid and if they were with their parents, the parents would be pumping them full of seeds and water at that age.......the crop milk would be long gone. PLUS, they learn very early what a seed is and it's not nearly as hard to wean them to a full seed diet. 
Now, some people soak the seeds in a little water for a few minutes and actually, when the parents feed them seeds, they eat some seeds, get a big drink of water and let the seeds sit in their crop for a few minutes before they feed the babies. I never soaked mine and they did just fine. You can do it either way, but when I start feeding seeds, I give them a drink of water too, even with the Kaytee. I just dribble it along their beak with a dropper or syringe and let them swallow it. Never squirt it in their mouth.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks. I know just feeding them the 10-12seeds is not enough. I would be adding the Formula along the seeds at the feeding. I was just curious how much the 10 seeds would fill them and make enough Mix accordingly.

In terms of water, don't squirt the water in their mouth when giving seeds?

Or since im going to be doing 10-12 seeds + some formula, to put the water with the formula like normal?


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Forgot to add. Just got done with the feeding. Each had about 3.25ML (roughly). So a bit more than yesterday.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Thanks. I know just feeding them the 10-12seeds is not enough. I would be adding the Formula along the seeds at the feeding. I was just curious how much the 10 seeds would fill them and make enough Mix accordingly.
> 
> In terms of water, don't squirt the water in their mouth when giving seeds?
> 
> Or since im going to be doing 10-12 seeds + some formula, to put the water with the formula like normal?



I meant don't just open their mouth and squirt the water in. They can aspirate if it goes down the wrong pipe. I just dribble and let them swallow. And I DO give them a little drink when I start feeding seeds. Heck, I give them a drink when I'm feeding the Kaytee too. I know the Kaytee has water in it and everyone says that's enough liquid and maybe it is. I just like a good drink of water sometimes, don't you?  It won't hurt them.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Since they were so young, it was a 3:1 ratio of water roughly, so they were already getting a lot.

Right now, with the Kaytee formula I seem to be having troubles getting it into their mouths through the syringe.

Like it's in the syringe, but there are so many air bubbles and the Kaytee I guess is too thick that it won't come through the top, and what I get is mostly water out of the end.

Using a 2.5 water to 1 Kaytee formula and it's just too thick to come out of the syringe. So I tried using one with a little wider tip. And i mean slightly bigger. Slightest preasure shoots it out. So it took almost an hour to feed them today. Not sure what I can do to get the Kaytee exact actually MIX with the water, than seperate. 

I've just been stirring. Is there another way, to make the Kaytee and water be as one, rather than when using the syringe, they seperate out?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Seiryu said:


> Since they were so young, it was a 3:1 ratio of water roughly, so they were already getting a lot.
> 
> Right now, with the Kaytee formula I seem to be having troubles getting it into their mouths through the syringe.
> 
> ...


you can mix it thin and then let it sit as it gets thicker mix well, when it sits adjust the water so it is a little thin after it sits for a few minuets,mix well again, suck it in the syringe trying not to get air in the syringe, if you have to suck it in a bit at a time feed and repeat to avoid the air bubbles. it can take alot of time because you ahve to feed slowly, you can always try the other method of letting them gobble it out of an opening they can stick their beaks in like they would naturally with a parent, by using a small shot glass or open end of the syringe with a rubber glove finger cut to put inside the syringe, it is messy though.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

The longer it sits, the thicker it gets. I mix mine, stir, let it sit, stir some more, add a little hot water if I need to until I get it right. Then, as I'm feeding,, I keep some hot water to add as I feed. I always use the small 3cc syringes, so I don't suck up much at a time. After you draw it up in the syringe, push the plunger until some formula comes out of the end to make sure there's no bubbles. Tapping the syringe will make it all settle together in the syringe.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Ya, I will try the stir and wait, stir and wait method for the next feeding.

Yes, even if I tap the syringe, and use it until it shoots a little of the formula out, there are still bubbles.

And I am making enough, where I have a good 4-5ML extra. That way I can get it in the syringe without many, if any bubbles. However somehow there still are. Thanks again.

I ended up having to use the baby cereal for the rest of the feeding because it just wasn't working with the Kaytee.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You'll get it. I remember my very first baby.........what a mess and I got SO frustrated, but she survived and so did I. LOL


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Don't want to be the extra cook in the kitchen, but ...

All the water my chicks got was contained in the moist food, until they could drink on their own.

If they are pooping easily and frequently, then that should indicate they get enough water in their system. Check how moist the poops are. It's a bit like us humans: hard, dry compact stools indicate dehydration. Some species of animals extract all the water they can from the feces, but humans and pigeons don't unless really dehydrated. The urine from pigeons is usually mixed with the feces.

When they have their eyes open, and they are a bit older, you can dip your finger into water and touch the sides of their beaks with it. They will know what water is. Then if you dip the lower part of their beaks into a jigger or shot glass (or one-ounce or 30-ml container, or the like) of water, their tongues will detect the water, and they will drink if they wish. Pigeons drink with their heads down, the beaks in the water, like horses.

You don't really have to teach them.

If you tap or "peck" at seeds with a finger (this is later down the line), they will get the idea that they should peck seeds also. Not too much teaching involved. They are quite smart. It is more a matter of them recognizing what is food and being coordinated enough to pick it up and swallow. They will at first just watch you. They will then peck and drop. Eventually they will get in a small seed or too. You will still have to hand-feed to mane sure they are getting enough. When they know they can do it on their own, they will shake their beaks "no!" and run away from you. It's a joy to experience this moment. 

You don't really have to teach them to fly, either. They do so much wing-flapping when they want food, that when their feathers are grown enough they simply lift off and fly. An unhealthy chick who does not vigorously wing-flap to say "FEED ME! Feed ME! ME! ME!" gets left unfed, weakens, and is ignored by the parent. (The parent is not unaware. He or she simply knows it is better to let a chick "drift off" towards death than prolong the misery a sick or handicapped chick will go through).

Larry

bu


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Yes, their poop is definitely not dry. It's liquidy and frequent. Right now my only concern is, are they getting enough of the food. But anyways, i'm going to try stirring, letting it sit and stirring until it's more combined than seperate.

Eyes still not open yet. And i've had them since wednesday (3 days). Would this mean that they were only 1-2 days old when I got them? A few pictures shown, showed their eyes being opened at 5 and 6 days. 

And of course, when i got them, they had a lot of the yellow fluffy feathers already and decent sized.

And and both seem to be head bobbling A LOT, flapping their wings a bit too. Is this a good thing?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Yes, their poop is definitely not dry. It's liquidy and frequent. Right now my only concern is, are they getting enough of the food. But anyways, i'm going to try stirring, letting it sit and stirring until it's more combined than seperate.
> 
> Eyes still not open yet. And i've had them since wednesday (3 days). Would this mean that they were only 1-2 days old when I got them? A few pictures shown, showed their eyes being opened at 5 and 6 days.
> 
> ...



I would guess that they were about 2 to 3 days old when you found them. Eyes usually open around 5 or 6 days, but babies that are hand raised don't grow/mature quite as fast as they would with the parents caring for them. We try our best, but it's just not the same. I would expect their eyes will open today or tomorrow. 
They're eyes may be closed, but I guess they can hear just fine and they're already recognizing you and your voice I expect........the wing flapping gets better and more urgent as they grow.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Also, is light a bad thing at this stage? I didn't even think about it until now as i've been so stressed trying to feed them and checking on them literally every hour.

I have a bedroom, which have my 2 lizards in it. It's a big 6feet long, 4 feet wide, 5 feet tall enclosure. of course they can't get the birds =P.

But the room is 80-85degrees. And i've been keeping them somewhat near the window. 

Should I move them behind the cage to make it darker, or put a tower over it? Or is it fine?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Also, is light a bad thing at this stage? I didn't even think about it until now as i've been so stressed trying to feed them and checking on them literally every hour.
> 
> I have a bedroom, which have my 2 lizards in it. It's a big 6feet long, 4 feet wide, 5 feet tall enclosure. of course they can't get the birds =P.
> 
> ...


I don't think the light will hurt them. Some of us are breeding right now and have our birds on lights. Some have lights on 24/7.......I don't, but.........I would think maybe some darkness during the night would be good........that way they would sleep and not want to be fed.........especially as they get older, open their eyes and want to start wondering around. The dark would keep them put for the night. Of course they won't be wandering any time soon, but I still think it would be a good idea to turn the lights out after the last feeding. I say some have their lights on 24/7, but they also have parents to feed them 24/7........


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Eyes not open*

I am not going to speculate on their age more precisely then I have already done, since I am not an expert, am not "on the scene," don't know all the variables.

And the members who have done a lot of baby pigeon feeding, more frequently and more recently than have, have already advised.

However, something popped into mind.

You mentioned that you have them on a heating device [of the sort used in terrariums for reptiles].

If they are on dry heat, is it possible the ambient air may be too dry for them? When I was around nine or ten years old, I visited my aunt and uncle's dairy farm near San Antonio, Texas. Had allergies to grasses, dust, etc. There was a drought, everything was thorn and mesquite and cactus (horse tried to brush me off by walking under mesquite trees). It was hot and dry. Slept one night with my head directly in the breeze of a small electric fan set in open window. Mucus on eyelashes glued my eyes shut next morning; had to use a lot of spit and fifteen minute's labor to open them. 

Just something to consider.

I think wing-flapping is good. Also helps them with digestion, I think. Head-nodding should be building up neck muscles.

Gotta go.

Larry


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Humidity in the room is always 40-60%, so not dry by any means. 

As far as light goes, the only light they get is from the window during the day. And the lizard lights (Heat lamps, UVB lights) turn off at 8pm. 

From 6-8pm it gets dark outside, and the bedroom itself is dark, just not INSIDE the lizard enclosure. And from 8pm to 6am, they are in total darkness. 

Hopefully this next feeding goes well.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to gently clean them if the Mix gets on them? I've been using a very soft towel to dry them off. It's mainly just on their necks/sides of beak etc. I imagine this is OK.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The light should not be a problem.
You can clean them off with a damp wash cloth right after feeding so that the formula doesn't get stuck on.
At this age, cover the top of them with a wash cloth...piece of fabric [fleece would be good] or a feather duster just until the feathers come in.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

When making the food. Using a 2(water) to 1 (Kaytee) ratio. When you guys first mix them. How long do you let them sit, and then restir?

Also are the forums acting up for anyone else? Been getting a few 404 page not found errors, and load slow page loads. Just for the site, everywhere else works fine.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> When making the food. Using a 2(water) to 1 (Kaytee) ratio. When you guys first mix them. How long do you let them sit, and then restir?


LOL........I never timed it. A minute? 1 1/2 minutes.........another thing, and I just might get yelled at for this......but here goes..........I don't measure when I mix. I dump some Kaytee in a bowl/cup and add some water. Stir, let it sit, stir some more....if it's TOO thin, then I add tiny bit more Kaytee....if it's TOO thick, I add more water.....I've never measured the stuff 2:1 or 3:1 or whatever...........at your babies age....we're guessing 5 to 6 days?...they would still be getting crop milk, so if the Kaytee is somewhat thin, that's fine.........
I guess it's just me...but I just don't get all caught up in the exact measurements and what not........I don't hand raise babies all the time either, but I've raised a few and I haven't killed one yet.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Lol thanks. I do hope these 2 pull through! I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like a 10-15minute wait, so I could plan accordingly 

I measure to start, but like you, If i think it's too thick, I add more water, if too thin i add more Kaytee.

Just the big issue I had was the Kaytee seperating from the water. And they basically got a lot of "Kaytee Water" than the actual food. But still got a few good squeezes of the food itself so it probably evened out. They just got squirted a little. I hate syringes now! lol. You see some flowing and thinking it's good. Then it stops at the end of the syringe and you push the slightest you can more, and bam, all over the place.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Then it stops at the end of the syringe and you push the slightest you can more, and bam, all over the place.


Been there, done that.......LOL............good thing pigeons don't mimic.....
I'd have a bunch of cussing birds on my hands. 
When the syringe does that, either get a new syringe, or try putting a little oil on the rubber part that slides. The Kaytee does tend to make it stick after a few uses.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

That might explain it. It worked just great the first day. I do clean the syringe before each use, but maybe it isn't getting it all.

Now would the Oil stay in there, or sort of clean it with the Oil and rinse thoroughly?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I just get some oil on my finger and wipe it on the rubber thingy very lightly. It won't last longer than one or two feeding, then you'll have to do it again. And I use whatever I have in the house. Canola oil, vegetable oil, etc....


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Well, some bad news. During their feeding, the smaller of the 2 passed away. He was eating good, crop about 1/2 full and his head went limp and stopped breathing.

Now I am looking for someone to take the other as I feel terrible he died. I just can't handle the stress of this. I've googled and googled Michigan bird rescues. But the only ones close by are closed down (as in don't exist anymore, not just closed for weekend).

What should I do?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Well, some bad news. During their feeding, the smaller of the 2 passed away. He was eating good, crop about 1/2 full and his head went limp and stopped breathing.
> 
> Now I am looking for someone to take the other as I feel terrible he died. I just can't handle the stress of this. I've googled and googled Michigan bird rescues. But the only ones close by are closed down (as in don't exist anymore, not just closed for weekend).
> 
> What should I do?


OH, I"m so sorry. Did it possibly asperate on the food? Where in MI are you?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Did you see these listings? Scroll to the top of the page and click on MI

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm#il


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

I don't know what happened. I give them a good 15-20seconds in between giving them more. More time if it seems they are having trouble. And his throat was clear, he was breathing, head bobbling, all that stuff. And before i could give him the next bit, he just went limp.

I'm in Clinton Twp. (Macomb County). Southeastern Michigan. All the rescues that **Might** take birds are 2+ hours away and I can't do that sadly.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

We've got a few members in MI but where they are exactly, I can't recall. Hopefully some of them will read this thread.
I know you are upset about the one baby, but without seeing it, it's hard to say what happened. 
It IS hard to raise these little guys from the age that you got them. I think and thought that you were doing a terrific job and it could be just "one of those things" that we'll never know and it would have happened to any of us.
Every day it will get a little easier and less stressful. I hope you'll reconsider giving up on this one unless there IS someone near you that can take him.
You know we're all here to help as much as we possibly can. 
We can't save them all. I had a baby a few years ago choke to death on a pea that it's parents had fed it. I just happened to go out to the loft and found it thrashing around and before I could say BOO, it was dead. Just like that. Weird things DO happen.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

I ended up finding someone 30minutes away and am heading over there now. I hope this one makes it.

It was the runt who died (he was much smaller). I wonder if I was just delaying his death, or if it was something I did.

I did do my best. And they would have died for sure if I didn't do anything about it. The only difference is, it died on my watch, and I was growing attached to it. Really would have loved to see it become an adult. And either release it if possible, or find it a good home. I wish I would have just taken them in somewhere sooner.

So now i'm going to be stressed for days.

Anyways, I do thank everyone for the help they have given. This will be my last day on the forums. Next time if I find a Baby bird, I'm just going to find someone asap to take them, and not take any chances on screwing up again.
Birds of Prey are much easier than these pigeons. I just can't believe how perfect it has to be. Birds of Prey (at least the hawks I dealt with), let you know when they were Hungry and full. Even at 3 days old.

Thanks again!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm glad you found someone so close. Maybe they will keep you informed of it's progress.
Thank you for trying. We all know you did your best and that's all ANY of us can do.
Please come back and visit it you'd like to.
Take care.


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## Seiryu (Feb 5, 2009)

Even more bad news. 1 mile away, the other one died. WOW I am really stressed now. I wonder if it was the corn oil I used to lube the syringe? it's the only thing I can think of that I did any differently.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Seiryu said:


> Even more bad news. 1 mile away, the other one died. WOW I am really stressed now. I wonder if it was the corn oil I used to lube the syringe? it's the only thing I can think of that I did any differently.


No, I don't think so because I've greased up my syringes many many times. I really don't have an explanation. I'm just so sorry that this happened.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Sorry to read about the babies.

When I rescued Chocolate and Vanilla/Pidgiepoo, I told my wife that they probably wouldn't make it, since babies have parents for a very good reason, and one of a species really has the best chance with its own raising it, but the only alternative would be to sit by and let them die.

So we try.

And often fail. And often have no clue as to why we failed.

I've rescued many pigeons since then. A number of them didn't make it. And it is stressful when they don't make it. Sometimes I don't know if attempting a rescue is the best thing, or should I leave them be. Maybe I am prolonging their misery.

I felt that with my last two PMV rescues. Would they ever fly again? Would they get over their symptoms. They did, and they joined their flock.

Babies are very difficult to raise properly, especially when you are not a professional and something is going on in the background you are not aware of.

You tried, and you were doing as well as you could possibly do. And the babies survived a bit longer. That is the positive result you can take from this. The caring, and the being cared for. The love, and the being loved. The experience and enjoyment of life, however brief, the appreciation, and the gratitude.

What else matters, however long our lives are?

Larry


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