# URGENT HELP: Pigeons Poisoned



## bakadko (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi All,

This is a long post, however I need some urgent help regarding some feral Pigeons that have been poisoned in the apartment building complex I live in Melbourne, Australia.

My wife and I have been involved in discussions with the building management ever since we discovered that they were trapping (and suspected killing) feral pigeons living in one of the buildings supply loading docks.

6 months ago I made a post about it here:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/building-trapping-feral-pigeons-need-help-42470.html

Back then we were successfully in getting them to remove the trap.

Last week however I found that they had reinstalled the trap in the loading dock. When we approached the building management again they were much more reluctant to remove it this time. We researched and advised them of all of their options for removing the birds (installing pigeon spikes, etc) and even offered to pay $500 towards a solution that would spare the bird's lives and they said that it would be discussed at the next apartment owners meeting.

A few days ago the trap was removed so we thought that they had come to their senses. Unfortunately, that was not the case.

Yesterday we found that one of the Pigeons had landed on our balcony, but was obviously very sick and unable to walk or fly anymore. There was also green poop everywhere around where we found him. We took him in last night and while still sick, seems to be stable.

Suspecting that something was wrong I went to investigate the loading dock where the Pigeons live, and this time found another Pigeon on the ground, unable to walk or fly, and doing green poops. I caught him as well and he is now in my apartment.

We know that there were 2 other Pigeons in the family, but so far have been unable to find them. We are going to take the Pigeons we caught to a vet asap, however unfortunately it is Sunday here in Australia so most vets are closed.

We need some urgent advice regarding the following:
1. How to take care of poisoned Pigeons?
2. Is there anyone who knows whether what the building management did is legal or not? I will take action against them if we can.
3. Obviously we need to find a home for these Pigeons in Melbourne, Australia. How do we go about doing this? If we release them somewhere else, I am sure that they will fly back to their nest and be poisoned again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi bakadko,


The symptoms you describe would not be typical of Avicides...


They do sound typical of various possible illnesses which Pigeons can get.


Can you post some clear, close up images of the poops/urates?

Also, take the 'green' part of a poop, and smear it down a sheet of white paper with a finger tip, and see if it has fibre in it with low color ligment density, or, if it appears to be more like a jelly dye without fibre.


Are you familiar with their 'Crop' ( front center of their Body, where food and water, when taken in, are stored pro-tem, before being passed to the Stomach? ) to see if their Crops appear to be empty, or, to have liquid or liquid and Seeds in them?


Phil
Lv


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, if you are sure they are poisoned as in Avitrol or a similar product, you want to get Toxiban ((activated charcoal) it's a vet product ready to go) in them ASAP. The activated charcoal can also be found in health/vitamin stores .. just not as tidy a solution as Toxiban. You also want to be giving plenty of fluids to flush the toxins out of the system.

Can't really help you on the legality, but if it was Avitrol .. that's an illegal substance in many parts of the U.S. .. doesn't mean it's illegal where you are.

Also can't help at this moment with homes for the birds in Australia but will be asking around.

Thank you so very much for you concern and help for these birds.

Terry


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## bakadko (Dec 20, 2009)

@pdpbison Thanks for the reply, however I have no doubt that the birds have been poisoned.

@TAWhately Thanks very much for the advice. We will try to get our hands on some activated charcoal and make sure to hydrate the birds. Will be taking them to an avian vet first thing tomorrow. Fingers crossed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How can you be so certain this is not an illess?


The same illness often afflicts more than one Pigeon of a flock or local area...so one can find multiple individuals having same or similar symptoms.


Did you check their Crops?


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## bakadko (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi pdpbison,

I am 110% certain that these pigeons have been poisoned. I have been dealing the building manager here for a while now and know what he is capable of. I see these pigeons everyday and the onset of the symptoms were very rapid. The timing of this is too convenient to be anything else.

There are still 2 pigeons that are missing, which is very unusual, and I fear they are already dead.

We need some urgent advice regarding the following:
1. How to take care of poisoned Pigeons?
2. Is there anyone who knows whether what the building management did is legal or not? I will take action against them if we can.
3. Obviously we need to find a home for these Pigeons in Melbourne, Australia. How do we go about doing this? If we release them somewhere else, I am sure that they will fly back to their nest and be poisoned again.

Any help at all greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

As for how to take care of a Poisoned Pigeon -


What kind of Poison, would guide one as for what regimen.


Usual Avicides are organophosphates...

Usually, the Pigeon will have eaten very large whole Kernals of Corn which had been soaked in a Liquid Avicide with 'Avitrol' being among the most popular, and, these unusually large Corn Kernals can be palpated in their Crops in most instances.

Sometimes the Pigeon will also throw them up.

'Avitrol' poisoning shows intermittent convulsions and thrashing, continuous very rapid open Beak breathing, and a 'hyper' or hyper lucid appearence.

There will be an odor to the Bird, something a little like burnt Sugar but less pleasant.


Avitrol Birds must not be allowed to drink, as drinking will accelerate the rate of the poison being absorbed by their system.


If your Pigeons are not thrashinhg, hyper-vivid, and suffering convulsions, it is not a typical Avicide.


Of course, there are many possible ways a Bird could get poinsoned, and or many kinds of possible Poisons.


If you would check their Crops, see if there appear to be anything for contents, and, if there appear to be solid contents, determine roughly the size of the Seeds which are present.

See if the Bird has any odor.

See if the Bird's breath has any odor, by putting your nose very close or into their Beak, as you hold their Beak open.



Do you know how to determing if the 'green' you are describing as 'poops', is in fact fecal matter, or Bile?


Can you inspect the interior of their Mouths and Throats, and see what the color and condition of the tissues is?


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## bakadko (Dec 20, 2009)

I don't think it is Avitrol as they have not been displaying any of the symptoms you described.

Checked their crops and there does not seem to be much in there.

I came across this link to an approved poison that is being used in Australia http://www.garrards.com.au/zone_files/labels/alphachlorolose_lab_030505.pdf

I am not sure if that is it thought. Really it could be anything.

Not sure how to determine if their fecal matter is poop or bile. It is very bright green however.

The interior of their mouths looks fine.

The birds are stable but obviously very week. I am taking them to an avian vet first thing tomorrow morning and will report back.

Fingers crossed we can get them treated and eventually back to health. No matter what I am not releasing these birds unless I know it will be to a safe environment - which is obviously away from this building.

I am going to need all the help I can get to relocate them.

Thanks for all your help.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The activated charcoal or the product containing it that Terry recommended should work for other poisons that have been ingested orally, as it binds toxins so that they are not absorbed as they pass through the digestive system.

If the avian vet is able to confirm that a toxin is being used we should be able to help find some antidote or treatment.

If a lot of watery poop is passed the pigeon will become dehydrated, so it will need a rehydrating fluid. As you are going to the vet you could ask him to let you have something for subcutaneous rehydration (Hartmanns fluids in the UK, Lacateted Ringers in the US...I don't know what it is called in Au) and to teach you how to admnister safely to birds. Alternatively, a product for oral rehydratiomn of birds, or failing that, oral rehydration of cats and dogs should do the job only it might take longer.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If one smear the 'green' thinly on a sheet of white paper with a finger tip...


If it is fecal matter, it will have a fairly thin pigment quality, and show fiber material.


If it is Bile, it will be like a jelled dye or paint, with more pronounced pigment quality and no fiber.


If it is Bile, the Bird has been starving for quite a few days...which would suggest illness, rather than having been suddenly grounded due to poinsoning.


Are the Urates unambiguously 'White'?


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## bakadko (Dec 20, 2009)

Thanks for the replies everyone. I taken the birds to a vet one looks like it will be OK, however, it seems as though the other one might not make it. I will find out in a few hours.

I have documented what happened on a website in the hope that we can get some justice for what happened. Leaving an animal to suffer for days is just unacceptable. 

http://crueltytribeca.tumblr.com/

This has been a very sad experience. I would appreciate it if you could comment on and share the website on Facebook/Twitter if you have accounts. 

I would also appreciate it if you would contact our building manager (using the details on the website) to express your disgust.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

bakadko, I am truly saddened by what has happened. It is really hard to watch the video and look at the pictures, but you have to live it. I am really pissed off that people are so mean. I just don't get it, and never will.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Did you check as described, to determine if the 'green' poops were fecal matter or Bile?

&


What did the Vet say?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The Video you show, represents a Pigeon who has a Neurological issue or more likely, a Leg-Musscle/Tendon injury effecting both Legs or possibly some kind of injury to his feet...and shows a Pigeon whose symptoms are in no way consistent with or indicitive of, any sort of Poisoning.


These are not 'siezures', the Pigeon is having problems with his Feet, or, with the Nerves that control the flexing of the Toes of the Feet.


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## bakadko (Dec 20, 2009)

The birds have been examined by an Avian vet and confirmed poisoning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What kind of Poisoning does the Vet say it is?

& 


What regimen does the Vet prescribe or recommend for it?


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## lastninja (Apr 28, 2010)

I found a pigeon that the Lort Smith animal hospital claimed most likely had neurological or degenerative physical condition. My little rock pigeon managed to survive 6.5 months with me, only passing away a few days ago.

I think that this is obviously not neurological but the quick onset and rapid death sounds like they are baiting rat poison on some food or seed.

Absolutely appaling, I am emailing you now, but really most people are insane and think of them as pests, flying rats. It sickens me but this is the way people think.

Due to this Lort Smith wanted to euthanise my little friend, but I paid the consultation fee instead and he lived almost 7 more months in warmth with food and drink and company and baths and hugs.

I don't think many people care about pigeon welfare here.

Today something horrible caught my eye, I might outline below after discussing your problem first.

Firstly I don't think it is illegal to kill them, because they are non-native/feral. Which is cruel because they saved so many lives in WW2, pigeons have received medals and commendations for saving hundreds of lives at a time by relaying important messages across battlefields through flac artillery etc. How can we not be grateful to these feathered friends?

Anyway I used to work at the Lucient building across from there, I am so disgusted by this, the Tribeca apartments would charge through nose for rates, and prior to installation it would have homed thousands of pigeons when it was the Carlton United Brewery. So they are so cruel to not do something small.

Honestly, I dont think there are any animal cruelty laws surrounding pigeons.. people are f**ked. But I think you could do something.. many older people like feeding birds etc, so I think a show like Today Tonight or A Current Affair, if you were prepared to speak publicly, would be interested in a humanist story like this. 

Exposure is the only way to stop it. 

If you want to hear my experiences with my little friend, read my other posts (only a couple).. he passed away a few days ago from organ failure, luckily it was quick. He was from Hawksburn however.

Now for my current experience today:

Check this link to google street view: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&....818667,144.974813&spn=0.050513,0.132093&z=14

there is a tiny gap at the top of those red cages, about 3 inches wide. No spikes or anything. The red cage protects the roller/shutter doors for deliveries.. there is a tiny gap 1-2 inches under the gate to this red cell. 

A poor thin girl pigeon must have fallen in there through the small gap at the top.. I spoke to someone who lives near there, they said very rarely do the gates get opened.. The poor thing was sitting alone in the cage.. couldn't get back out the top, because it is conical sort of, slanted angle going up, and only 3-4 inches wide access, so the poor thing can fall in while resting or sleepy on top of it, but can't get back out.

She was so thirsty and hungry, the guy that lived behind the building brought out a bag of sweet buns from a bakery to feed all the free pigeons, so I grabbed some of the more savoury pastries and crumbled up the pastry under the cage. So tonight she has some food.

I have a lot of work to do tonight and some tomorrow day also but as soon as I can, I will go back out there (off chinatown, celestial avenue) to give the girl some water - I will cut up a drink bottle so it can be 1.5 inch deep with water to help her survive a bit longer.

I will try to find out on google street view now the front of the building, to approach the owners to hopefully open the back gate tomorrow day/night.. but I don't expect my luck.

Also was thinking of calling RSPCA, SINCE THEY 'SAY' 'ALL CREATURES GREAT AND SMALL' and it is their mission statement to care for all, native and feral.. so not in pain or agony..

So definitely call RSPCA and ask them about the poisoning, let them know, see if they can get an inspector out there.. and, if, like I expect they will say with me 'we dont really care so much about pigeons', say well what does your mission statement 'all things great and small, native and feral' mean then?? THat one life is worth more than another??

I am so horrified having lost my little man a few days ago and now this.

There is no way to open the red cage or force open, solid as, so only hope is to either wait until delivery and opens (could be NEVER), or I contact the owner/manager and hopefully they can be bothered spending the minute opening it up.

Once done however could happen again. But I think it would be a rare accident one gets trapped this way.

I couldn't bare to see her all alone trapped in this cage. It looked like her family or relatives were above her. They weren't diving down to gorge on the food like the other pigeons around, they just sat on top of the cage like the were waiting and for solidarity. 

I don't know if I will actually call the RSPCA myself, I was so upset I thought maybe they could come out and ask them to open or something for me, But now I think, they probably won't care at all.

I will try myself first, if that doesnt work, I will try RSPCA, and question their motivation and morality if they say that pigeons dont matter.

One other thing, if you see kids chasing/trying to kick pigeons, seriously can you tell them off? I'd like to run up and pretend to start kicking the kids, see if the parents liked that.

People make me sick.

I hope I didn't get any disease from my little rock pigeon friend, but anyway I use humaworm.com so I should be ok. I'll ask my doctor again when I go back though.


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## lastninja (Apr 28, 2010)

So I have checked google street view and it appears it is 22 Celestial Lane. It looks like an abandoned warehouse. Behind it is Heffernan Lane, I can't tell if any buildings join to it but will try tomorrow to take some water in the morning and see if can find any information on who owns/operates. Really worried it's empty though.

Can someone look at the gate, now saying this I can't possibly do it because I have mentioned it publicly - but would it be even possible to use bolt cutters on such a gate/fence?? It is too intimidating, I don't think it would work. Plus its super busy and as I said if I was actually going to do it, I wouldnt mention it. But for theories sake, nothing would possibly open this fence would it??

So I am very sad. I sent an email to the RSPCA because I didn't want to have to speak to them in person and have either the prejudice of a phone operator perhaps ignore the report. Equally the web operator could be similarly minded, but I hope not.

I asked my partner who is knowledgable in my things about the poisoning. Looks like no luck there. While in theory RSPCA or other organisation opposing animal cruelty may have a mission statement that says 'all things great and small' but this is kinder of a darker message I think.

What it really means is they are taking their own approach to ecology and sustainability. To look after the greater sized creatures like humans, we must currently destroy a locust plague we are experiencing. Fair enough. 

But then what about the bunnies? I love rabbits, I think it was terrible they were introduced here and the damage to the ecology. But then we did mixamatosis, it didn't work, so now in STATE/NATIONAL parks, rabbits are regularly BAITED by council/park rangers.

Equally I find out now pigeons are in this category. Considered non-native, if numbers are too great, culling is perfectly acceptable to most government bodies. However we are lucky in Brisbane and Melbourne that this culling does not go on currently. In Brisbane for the past decade, they have located a family of eagle-hawks into the city, so that territorially they run off the pigeons and other birds that they wanted to keep away from a couple of sections of the city, where many people go for lunch, that it was costing a fortune to clean up every year. This solution is beautiful, the pigeons and other birds go elsewhere to feed in more natural environments, the native eagle-hawks are able to catch the few mice and things in the city, and everyone is happy.

Here in Melbourne we are lucky enough that instead of a cull, Mayor John So put up a nifty pigeon loft along the banks of the Yarra. You can see it near one of the bridges going over to the casino.

So at least we are not culling yet..

However poisoning is legal for 'feral' animals unfortunately. This includes rabbits, pigeons and I would assume feral cats, dogs, etc. I understand the problem feral dogs and cats pose so I understand the need to reduce their numbers. They kill domestic animals and destroy the native ecology.

But pigeons REALLY don't do that much damage, apart to buildings! And really, I don't care so much about those. They are less important to me than the lives of these creatures.

All lives are equal in my opinion. I used to think bugs were ok to kill (to kill mostly when not really necessary, when could take outside etc), but I'm trying to turn my ways around.

So now it seems that it is perfectly acceptable for a crappy 'independent' (supposed to be representative of the community, what a joke) supermarket IGA, killing animals to save a few bucks. Their poison is probably a slow seller, so they have to use it before the expiry date, after which they couldn't sell. Or they just honestly enjoy killing things. Or they think pigeons are worthless creatures.

It is sickening but what can you do?

Apparently nothing.

My friend said she went to her friends place the other month, saw all these bunnies, but her friend said they would all be dead next time she came.

So the RSPCA probably won't do anything to stop cruel treatment of creatures in this way.

Equally I doubt they'll spend a single donation dollar on helping a pigeon. 

So I think tomorrow when I go back, the pigeon will still be there. Hopefully still alive. I'll leave water and my seed mix from my last little friend. Hopefully she will survive until they open the gate.. but I think it will NEVER be opened again. So I will look around to try and find the owner/manager.. but I have a horrible feeling that I won't have any lucky.

My mother passed away to chemotherapy, lung & brain cancer 7 months ago, a couple of weeks after I started caring for my little pigeon Professor. I'll update the thread with photos and my tears of sadness, that I was posting in about him, in a couple of weeks when things settle down with current things. My grandmother is 90 years old and in hospital and breaking up with my girlfriend at the moment, who is moving interstate. So very busy. But I will finalise that thread at some stage. But it hurts me to talk about, burying the Professor was one of the hardest things I've ever done. But apparently 7 months with a degenerative physical or neurological condition is a great length of time, so I am happy he had this time with us that he did.

As far as racing/homing clubs, I am starting to think that these are like slave labour for pigeons. I don't think many people keep good conditions.. and such small spaces for them in loft, it seems so cruel, sport of out of animals.

They have use for important messages in WW2 etc. Their sacred spirit is not to be wasted on pointless tasks like racing.

My friends father was dying, said so by doctors no hope, but only recovered after travelling to Hong Kong and given a sacred pigeon to eat to save his life. These pigeons are raised in temples and revered, treated execeptionally well and killed humanely. I don't agree with eating them but it saved his life. And it is better they live well and are eaten than live in suffering to die for no reason. But in this regard I think it is now my karma to give back to the pigeons some more. 

I just wish I could save this pigeon. But I can imagine a horrible end.

I will try tomorrow. I will be exceptionally sad if I cannot find anyone to do such a small task for me, opening the gate. I think people would not care to do it, most would not want to waste time from business or whatever. Worst case its empty. I wish I could at least put something along the top of the fence to at least make a smaller gap that birds wouldn't fall into. But it's so high, I would need a ladder just to get to top. And THAT wouldn't look suspicious in a city lane, would it?

I feel so terrible right now. I have maintenance to my flat tomorrow, I have requested it for 4 months since moving it. It was my mothers place, I transfered the lease, it is disgusting how long people leave you waiting. The agent really doesn't care at all about helping tenants. So I must be here 2-4pm to have the plumber over, but before or after I will go and give water to this poor pigeon by cutting a 1.5 litre bottle plastic up to make a 1-2 inch deep tray to slide under the fence. It's probably going to be a 1 inch gap even, i'm probably being optimistic, it was hard even to just flick bits of food under, I used the sides mostly of the opening gate in the middle, there was a bigger gap there. And as said I'll leave seed. Sun and shelter.. but no food and water or freedom or exercise.. I'm so worried for this little one. No shade either for over half the day..

Wild but trapped.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Reeally sad story if this pigeon is still alve and still there please tell me and I will c what I can do. There is so much you can achieve when you contact a companies head office and complain


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