# I NEED HELP!!!



## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Bacon is acting really funny!!! I dont know if it is becuase she is sick or if she is like starting to molt or what. She has eaten today and drank today and seemed to be fine this morning. Now she seems reaaly hot and is really tired and keeps opening her beak. Her beak is like constantly open slightly. I did see a bunch of feathers come off of her. Do thay get like this when they molt or is there something wrong with her??? Please help...I am so worried!!!!

Tara


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Some more of her symptoms that I left out are that her anus seems to be swollen and is tneder to the touch. She will also open her beak very wide and almost seems like she is chocking and she shakes her head. Then she stops. I mean she does not seem to be in any great stress, I have made an appointment witht the vet, but I couldnt get one until tomorrow morning!!! So I was just looking for soem peace of mind maybe, I also have called the vet in NYC whos number I found in a post here and he seems to think, without looking at her that it may be a cold. Anyone with any info would be great!!!! 

Tara


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Hi Tara,

It sounds as if she may be egg bound. try to get her in a box, on a heating pad on low setting. Get her somewhere semi dark & quiet. Sometimes the egg prolapses inside the duct (there are three ducts which come out of the vent, one for the egg, one for urates, and the other feces) the ducts can get tangled. She definately sounds as though she needs to see the vet.

Has she laid eggs before? ever had trouble before? When she breathes, does it look like a woman in labor? Pant pant, strain, then almost normal again?

Barb

[This message has been edited by B. Crowe (edited March 11, 2002).]


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

She has yet to lay an egg with me, but I am not sure how old she is either, so this may be her first one. I kinda had the feeling that the egg thing might be the case, her breathing is very much like a women in labor. I still do plan to take her to the vet tomorrow. So is her sleepyness and her swollen anus also signs of an impending egg??? Also her being hot?? Thanks for the help. I am so worried!!!

Tara


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Hi all, I am sorry to be such a pain, but I just got Bacon home and she got out of her cage and was really off balance. She kinda stumbled out and then was just really unstable, like she was drunk. I am so upset!!! I want her to be ok!!!!

Tara


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

I have only encountered this once in my life. It was with one of my miniature bantam hens. It had been at least two days before I found her, hiding in a spot, doing the same as your bird. In obvious pain, the only difference is my hen prolapsed, which meant the egg was still in the duct, but the entire duct was on the EXTERNAL side of the vent. The poor bird. I rushed her to my avian vet, who took her into surgery, and my hen had her first egg my c-section. She laid three more in the next twelve hours. 

I'd call the vet back & tell them to call you if they get any openings at all, and let them know that you now believe she is eggbound. Perhaps they can squeaze you in if they know it is more urgent.

Good luck. I wish I knew more. I have only the one experience to go on. 

Barb


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Tara, you really need to keep her quiet & calm till you can get her to the vet. You don't want the egg to burst while it is inside her. Do you have a portable pet carrier? something small you can get her in, set it on a heating pad on low? sometimes the warmth can help them pass the egg. Just DO NOT turn it any higher than low! and place it under the carrier or box.

Barb


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Yes I have a pet carier I can keep her in I will do that and I also have a heating pad. She seems to want to be in the carier anyway. I will put her in and see how she does. She doesnt seem to be as stressed as I am!!! So this is definatly what it seems to be...she is trying to lay an egg???

Tara


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Tara,
I could be "eggbound" but it could also be some infection causing the stress. The vet is very important at this point, without delay. The imbalance thing has me thinking that this might be very serious.
I always start my birds on Baytril whenever something is happening, even before I learn what the problem is. If she is yound, give her 1/2 tab. Baytril (Foys Pigeon Supply) per day for 14 days.
Hope you find out soon because your bird is suffering and there are things you can do if you know what the problem is.
Good luck,
Carl


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Tara and Bacon,

I hope Bacon is showing some improvement. I, too, suggest keeping the bird warm and quiet. Just be sure it is not too hot for Bacon and try to be sure Bacon is not becoming dehydrated. If she is not drinking on her own, see if she will take at least some water from a syringe or eye dropper. You do want to avoid stressing her, but dehydration will only compound the problems at hand. 

It does sound like she has an egg related problem though the head shaking and balance problem may indicate that something more or something different is going on. It is definitely vet time for Bacon.

Please keep us posted. We're pulling for Bacon!

Terry Whatley


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

If we knew for sure that the bird is egg bound, I would suggest syringing 3CC of mineral oil down her to try to lubricate the system and induce her to eject the egg.


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Hello all!!! I have been to the vet and Bacon is "eggbound". She is on calcium for two days and hopefully she will drop it. If not she will have to have surgery!!! Boy I hope she lays this egg!! The vet said that she can actually feel the egg. So she goes back on Wednesday!!! Hopefully all will be well!!!

Tara


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Tara, did the vet say to keep her warm & quiet as well? Gosh, I hope she has it soon too!! Poor thing! that's GOTTA hurt! 

Please keep us updated ok?

barb
sending healing vibes your way


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Tara,
Do you give your bird calcium in the form of grit or in the water?


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Tara:

The calcium supplement is a good move and will help avoid future problems. It may also help with the dizziness you described. Calcium is an electrolyte and is critical to proper nervous function in birds.

When she passes the first egg, a second will surely follow. It is almost unheard of for there to be complications with the second egg, once the first one passes successfully.

You can massage Vaseline or K-Y Jelly into the vent area. But do NOT risk breaking the egg inside the hen.

All the other advice you've been given is text book. You & BB are in good hands.

We will all be keeping you two in our thoughts. Things will likely turn our alright.

When you get through this, keep track of her calcium intake--it's the best measure you can take against future egg binding.

Very best regards,

Ray


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## candra (Dec 18, 2001)

Cookie was eggbound once and she had the EXACT symptoms your Bacon Bit is experiencing. She did pass it. I kept her quiet, sitting in her warm nest (a flannel pillow) and gave her water hourly. I just had to put the water glass up to and she would drink by herself -- but she was pretty weak. I also gave her electrolytes.

i think I stayed up for two days straight, right by her nest, making she she had water. 

It's pretty much a waiting game. Keep her hydrated and quiet. And, you have a vet. That is good. 

If it's any consolation, this only happened to Cookie once. All the other times she had her eggs with ease (I guess that's easy for me to say). However every now and then she would have problems flying when it got "close". 

Keep us posted. Cookie and I are pulling for Bacon Bit.

Candy


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## candra (Dec 18, 2001)

PS

At least you know that Bacon Bit is a girl now!!

Candy


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

I thought I would just write a quick update. Bacon has not passed the egg yet, but she is acting alot better than yesterday. The vet did tell me to keep her warm and as still as possible and to be very gentle with her so the egg does not break. She is definatly more steady on her feat this morning. I hope it happens today!!!!! I will let you all know when it does!!!

Tara


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Oh yeah I forgot to add for Fred that she is getting her calcium regularly in the from of grit, but the vet has given her liquid that I have to squirt in her mouth. Which she is a real champ to give it to!! What a good girl!!!

Tara


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

The first order of business today was to fire up the computer. Then get coffee going. Then, with Mother Brain (the computer) all yawned, stretched, and awake, touch base with you here & now!

I guess little BB has aunts and uncles all over the map!









Well the news is good, as the little patient is doing better. Since this is her first egg, I'm sure it's especially hard for her. With this experience under her belt (no pun intended!), she will no doubt have a much easier time of it in the future. I'm sure she senses that you know something's wrong, are doing all you can, and that she does not face this alone. Anbody that has been gravely ill knows how important the latter is. And I'm convinced, that in their way, pigeons feel everything we do.

I've heard of instances of calcium supplements turning a pigeon, showing signs of dizziness and even apparent paralysis, around within hours. These are cases where it was known that no injury occurred and that PMV and the like were not the problem. Thankfully, "lytes" can be replaced fairly quickly.

The egg yolks, as much as the shells, leach enormous amounts of calcium from a hen at this time. And again, calcium supplements are your best bet against future egg binding. Just follow instructions on dosing and give it exactly as recommended for a pigeon of a given weight (your vet has you covered here).

It seems Nature's plan of procreation can be almost ruthless at times.

Hard wired into pigeons is the urge to make little pigeons. And the ovulation of the hen is a hard-wired thing. Perhaps, the lengthening days has triggered her into reproductive mode.

Oh, if there's room, Judy recommends upping the humidity in her quarters. Do this by placing a ball of crushed paper towel in a bowl of water--not the drinking water, of course.

An old book of mine (I had to dig to find this), printed in 1959, says the following...

*****
Egg Binding: Occasionally, a hen will have trouble passing an egg. First of all, you should keep her warm. Bathe the vent with warm water and syringe a little warm olive oil into it. The hen will usually have no difficulty passing her egg after this treatment.

*****

I've never done this. But...

I'd heat the olive oil by placing a small container of it in hot water, until it is warm. I would NOT use a microwave! I'd then test it on myself, first. I'd Insert the tip of a 1 cc syringe a short ways into the
"vent" with the greatest of care, and depress the syringe fully. If the olive oil goes mostly inside, I'd say, mission accomplished.

Then, I'd put her back on the heat, fuss over her, and wait.

PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hey, Tara:

I'm not recommending that you attempt the procedure mentioned in my last post. It is offered as an option available to you, should all else be appearing to fail. Only you know if BB would calmly subit to such a treatment, if you decided to proceed. Very likely, it would be best to have your boyfriend or you hold her carefully, while the other handles the olive oil thingy.

Give the little lady a smooch for Judy & me!









--Ray


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

SHE HAD THE EGG!!!! YEAH!!!! I AM SO PROAD OF HER!!!! Now will there be another one?? Or will this be it??? SHould I let her sit on the egg??? There is no way it could be fertile right??? I am so happy!!!!!!

Tara


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

*HOORAY !*









Great News Tara! I am sooooo glad for BB & you. 

Barb


[This message has been edited by B. Crowe (edited March 12, 2002).]


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## DaveD (Jul 9, 2001)

CONGRATS!! This is indeed a serious problem with very young hens, as well as older hens sometimes. Couple of tips for you. . .

First, a second egg is possible. Most hens do lay 2, but occassionally a younger hen will just have one. The normal time frame would be about a day and a half before the second egg is dropped, but in an eggbinding case, I wouldn't be suprised to see it sooner or later than that. 

The second thing goes along with ray's comment about pigeons having such a strong drive to make little pigeons. If I were you, I would let her set on the eggs. . . even if they're not any good. If you take them away, you run the risk of her instinct telling her it was a failed attempt and putting her back at the beginning of the process. With her still recovering, that could be dangerous. Eggbound or otherwise injured hens. . I let them keep thier eggs, because if nothing else, it gives them three weeks of quiet time to sit and relax. You wouldn't have to fight her to keep her mellow, because instinct should keep her on the nest. It's a much needed vacation, and in this time, she'll be able to put on weight and get better, since she won't be burning as much food. Best of luck, Dave

------------------
David and Kellie Dittmaier
Haven's Loft
www.geocities.com/havensloft


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Hey all. Well since Bacon has had her egg she has taken two poops and they both have been a little bloody. Is this normal considering her situation, or is it something new I should be concerned with??? She is drinking and eating well now, but like I said the two poops were bloody and I was just wondering if that was cause for concern. Thanks all!!

Tara


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Tara:

Dave's right, let her set the egg(s).

After a while, you may notice some behavioral changes. Don't take them personal.
I laughed out loud when one of our members emailed me, saying that her loving little hen had turned into a feathered "attack ball with orange eyeballs!"









Cosmo likes paper love twigs at this time, and she places them about her egg(s). We praise her all the while she sits them. At those times when she does leave the egg(s) she enjoys defending the nest against Spider Creatures. Every victory--they're all victories--is praised and she grunts and twitches her wings good naturedly.

Usually after a couple of weeks, she pretty much abandons the eggs. A couple weeks later, it all begins again...

If the eggs are fertile, somebody should notify the Vatican...









A second egg within two days is likely. Any bleeding should cease after that. 

She should have a much easier time with her second clutch. Stay with the calcium supplements.

And oh, yes, CONGRATULATIONS!!!









Ray N' Judy


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

I would definitely put Bacon on a broad spectrum antibiotic for at least 7-10 days.
We all know how infectious droppings are and to make sure nothing starts up in the system through whatever lesions Bacon has, no infection should be allowed to enter and fester.


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

So how often can I expect her to lay eggs??? What kind of antibiotics would you suggest she go on. The first egg that she layed was so soft an she brake it. I am not sure how. I went in to check on her and it was broken. I was not surprised, because it was so soft, but I think she is getting close to having the other egg. She went to her cage and started "house cleaning" and re-arranging everything. So I put the heating pad over her cage as well as a blanket and she seems to be resting. I am brinking her water every half an hour. She does not seem to have much of an appetite. But I am assuming that is pretty normal. She ate real well earlier anyway. So I maybe she will have the other one tomorrow!!! I will let you all know!!!

Tara


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Tara,
I would not recommend anything that you can get in a pet store. Is there any way you can ask your vet for a broad spectrum antibiotic like Baytril?


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Fred's right--and Carl had suggested this earlier--,a course of Baytril now is, I believe, a wise precaution. Best to play it safe. You see, there are "complications" that can arise from an egg binding situation.

Call your vet and tell her that your pigeon friends are advising a course of Baytril, based on the facts as you presented them.

Follow the dosage instructions EXACTLY. Judy and I prefer the liquid form of Baytril. If your vet weighed BB, she can calculate the dosage for you. Do NOT stop antibiotics before the full course is over (unless a real obvious "reaction" occurs). Do not give BB more antibiotic than what is called for. Do not use bleach treated water while giving Baytril.

If the vet recommends another antibiotic, remind her that you are giving a calcium supplement at this time.

The soft egg shells are a dead give away that BB needs calcium supplements. Since egg binding can be a fatal condition, you should be mindful of this in the future. A boost in calcium levels will make her next clutch of eggs go much more smoothly for her; and the next egg shells will be hard, like nature intended.

What is the name of the calcium supplement you are using?

At any rate, you two have done very well!

Keep us posted!

--Ray


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Well I am worried about Bacon again because she started to sneeze blood this morning. I bumped my vet appointment up to 1:00 so i can get her checked earlier. I hope she is ok. She si still acting fine but she was really sneezing up blood. I will definalty tell the vet thaqt you all have recommended Baytril. I am not sure exactly what the calcium she is on is. I am at work so I dont have the bottle with me. But I wll remind her that Bacon is on it. I will keep you all updated after the vet!!! 

Tara


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Tara,
The fact that Bacon is sneezing up blood is now a whole different story. She is either bleeding in the crop or the respiratory tract. Something is very wrong and it is more than an egg binding problem.
At this point, nothing can be ruled out. I hope you are taking Bacon to an avian vet and not a regular one. Only the avian vet has the expertise to diagnose and treat Bacon properly. This is an emergency situation
Please keep us updated.


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## BaconBit (Jan 3, 2002)

Well, I am back from the vet with good news. I guess this morning when I was giving Bacon her calcium I must have sratch the roof of her mouth and it was bleeding!!! I am such a BAD mother. I couldnt believe that I did that to her. She is fine now. There is no more bleeding but it is a little raw. The vet has put her on Baytil!! For ten days in her drinking water. It is the pill form. And she will be getting a low dose of her calcium for another week. So all is well!!! Just hoping for another egg!!!

Tara


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Great news!!!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hey, the trouble with work is it gets in the way of pigeons









I've spent rather a lot of time today thinking about Bacon - I really hope she continues to get stronger and starts to take eggs in her stride









John


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## lukekerttu (Jan 9, 2001)

glad to here she is ok and my pigeon kept laying eggs after i had to seperate her from her mate but she would not set them she would roll them out of the nest i don't know why? i still have her first clutch of eggs actualy the shells i put them in a jar with some water and i labeled them i plan on keeping those for the rest of my life 

------------------
luke


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## candra (Dec 18, 2001)

Hi Tara:

Glad Bacon is doing so well!! And you are not a bad mother -- you took care of her and she knows it. Like I said before, at least you know she is a female now. And you apparently have found a good avian vet.

Luke -- one young pair of mine used to just lay and roll out the eggs. They were pretty young when they paired up and it seems that as they are getting older they are now sitting on the eggs. They used to just lay the eggs, roll them out and then go on about playing. They are a very playful couple. I wrote it off to youthful indescretion. The seem to be taking things more seriously now.

Candy


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## B. Crowe (Mar 4, 2002)

Tara, I am so glad to hear Baconbit is hunky dory. Don't punish yourself for the roof of the mouth thing, this is how you learn. You are a wonderful momma for taking action & caring for your feathered babe. 

Now, just let us know when she decides to lay that other egg! LOL! Keep up the good work!!

Barb


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Tara,
When syringing anything down, aim for the liquid to go down the left side of the throat. Aiming for the top of the mouth might cause the liquid to go down the center of the throat and that presents a danger of the stuff goimg down the trachea that is just behind the tongue.
If you aren't sure about how to do it, give the bird a little at a time and allow Bacon to swallow a little of it before adding more.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi, Fred:

You wrote, in part: "When syringing anything down, aim for the liquid to go down the left side of the throat."

When I tube feed Cosmo, I feed the tube down HER RIGHT SIDE, then feel for it in her crop before I dispense any food. Judy does the same. 

I guess my point is, Cosmo would be dead if we'd gotten this wrong on the first attempt...

Can you clarify? Do you mean the pigeon's left, or your left, as you're dosing it?

Best regards,

Ray


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Ray,
Ray it doesn't matter. Both left and right sides lead to the esophagus. The danger lies in the middle where the trachea lies.
If you are right-handed, going to the bird's left side of the mouth is more natural.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Ray,
I did respond to your post and it didn't take so here goes again.
It doesn't matter what side it goes down as long as it doesn't go down the middle where the treachea is and where the bird could aspirate if anything got in there.
Both sides lead to the esophagus and I imagine it depends on whether the one who is doing hte feeding is left or right handed. Whatever is easiest.


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Guess what?
I just discovered that there can be more than one page for a topic.


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Indeed, my friend. There's a lot to talk about!









PIGEONS FOREVER!!!

--Ray


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