# plz. help , is it possible ?



## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

hi to all . i have been raising pigeons since i was alittel kid and i have raised most of the known breeds and even tried to produce my own breed by mixing diffrent breeds such as bokhara/ozbek and jacobin/bokhara and had some promising results but had to stop the project becouse i got busy with college , the thing is that i used to breed for shape and never realy botherd with colors but i have always wonderd is it possible to take any breed of pegion and breed it into any color such as producing a bokhara in the same color patron of the beautiful archangel or the gorgeous egyptian swift . is it possible and if so where do i start ? thnx to all who reply


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi, Yes it is possible, Firstly I would start by studying basic pigeon genetics so you understand how all the colours/patterns are inherited, Due to sex linkage there are some colours/ patterns that can be completely lost in a generation if you don't keep a certain sex of bird. I would then find out all the colour genes you want in the pigeon to get the colour you need.

Then you need to put all these genes and modifiers into the breed you are trying to transfer the colours onto, I would put each seperate modifier onto a blue bird and bring these birds type back to standard. Then once you have all the birds back to standard start combining the colours and patterns that you need until they are all on the new breed and hopefully the new breed will stay good type wise.


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

thank you very much for your quick reply but i am sorry to say this for i know nothing about pigeons genatics when it comes to colors and that is why i asked where to start
and what i meant by that is what colors do i need to start with first ( i have all the basic or should i say standerd colors and can obtain any color if required ) so if you would plz. till me what colors should i start with to get the arch angel color. thanx again


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

You need an arch angel (of course) and easiest would be a "non spread" version of the other pigeon you want to cross with. Black pigeons usually are spread, as are good uniform red pigeons. Any type of wing pattern would exclude spread unless it is toy stencilled. Andalusians are also spread.

The gimpel/archangel factor is a dominant bronze but the heterozygous birds often only have a bronzed body (not the head).


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

ok thank you henk69 and with all due respect to
what you said but what if I put an archangel in the process I will lose some of the characteristics of the breed such as the size or the form of the crest
ok asume we are talking about a performance bird or 
a vocal breed such as the arabian trumpeter 
( I think will bee so cool to have a bird with the 
distinctive voice of the arabian trumpeter with 
the beautiful color patron of the archangel) 
from experience once you mix the arabian trumpeter
with other breed you will never get the same voice 
back ( for those who dont know how the arabian trumpeter sound like go to this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=MDmN1D-XLYc )
and after all isnt the archangel just like all 
other breed was the result of selective breeding
starting with the rock pegions so what i mean is 
is it possible if we go back to square one or for 
argument sake let us say square two or three since
we already have the basic colors and start from there and take a breed like the bokhara or the arabian trumpeter and try to breed it for the archangel color using only the same breed . 
thnx again for all


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

That's my point... 
Arch angel bronze is dominant, and it is visible in non spread pigeons.
So you can track the gene while you keep backcrossing to your "goal" breed. 
Backcrossing will bring the desired traits back the fastest.
Then if you have the archangel gene in a few goal-breed-like pigeons, you can interbreed them to get the archangel color complete.

But if you start with a spread goal pigeon, you won't be able to track the archangel gene and chances are that you lose it.


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

sorry to bother you but you still did not give
me the answer Iam looking for . to my understanding
archangel is not just a color or color patron as I understand it its a breed that has its own traits.
now what Iam saying if you mix different breeds for sure we will lose some traits in each bird and it will take a very long time to get those traits back
and some times its impossible to do so just like I said with the voice in the arabian trumpeter.
ok let me put it in a Simple way I have about 20 pairs of arabian trumpeter in black,white,red and
blue and one paire is white with bronze neck.
so whate I need to know in a simple ward is it possible to create the archangel color patron from the colors I have (I can get any other color if required )but like I said using only the same breed
thnx.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

No, you can't. If the archangel gene is absent, then it is absent.

But the good news is that backcrossing to trumpeters will bring back all their traits very fast! For instance, creating a new color of lakenvelder chicken only takes 2 generations!

Best chance you have is work with the blue and the bronze necked white...


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

unfortunately that I can't. but I will try to do like you said with the blue and bronze necked even though I was going to try with black instead of blue
but I try it both ways.but the question still exist
and linger in my mind how was the archangel color created to begin with? thnx.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I think we can not discuss things like that here. It's bordering on creation vs evolution. Hopefully without going into a debate.... Hopefully..... it's really simple. In the creation worldview, the arch angel color gene was created by a Creator. Therefore you can not create it out of two birds that don't have it. In the evolutionary worldview things come about by random chance. Therefore two pigeons that don't have the gene could by a complete random mutation get the gene. 

I'm not trying to be rude, but if that's the way you want to go about it you don't have to do anything special just keeping breeding birds, and according the that worldview it will come eventually. Then you keep breeding that one.

Look anyone reading this, this is not a debate. Simply stated what each view led to since there seems to be some confusion. Note: I'm not responding to any hostility.


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

I realy dont wish to get in an argumentative religious discussion about creation but we are not talking here about the creation of god almighty.
instead we are talking about man mixing colors 
to produce a new color .but ok I will rephrase my question:how was the archangel color founded to begin with? end of it thnx.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I didn't make an argument at all, the sum of the parts is equal to the whole okay. What you are trying to do is the same as taking birds which have no crest gene in them and make them have crests without adding the gene. I already gave you the answer you were looking for. It happens randomly. You cant intelligently do such things. You can not create something in a bird without the bird having the material to make it. Two birds that do no have crests can make a crested young only if they both have the gene in there genetic make up to do so. Your birds can not make gimpel without having gimpel in there genetic make up.... Which they don't.... So you have to cross breed if you want it.

I never made an argument in favor of one view over another did I? You can point it out if I did. I simply stated if you believe 'A' then the answer is 'Y' if you believe 'B' then you answer is 'Z'. You ask one question I gave you two answers for you to choose. Your question depended on what you may or may not believe, I simply stated that. If you don't want such things pointed out don't ask questions like that.


To answer you question "how was the archangel color founded to begin with?"

The answer according to what you believe. It was a random mutation which happened while breeding pigeons, new information was added to the gene pool. Once it entered the gene pool man kept breeding that making sure it stayed alive. This event was never documented so if you looking for a specific cross like blue bar to a blue check. That information is not there. Which leads me back to what I was saying. If you don't want to cross breed pigeons sooner or later it could happen again. There's the answer you wanted.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I couldn't find a picture, but there are pigeon species that resemble the archangel even more:










What about this one?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)




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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

sorry if I misunderstood your piont and yes it is true what you have said about random mutation
acording to my readings but also acording to my understanding that when a mutation first occur it
would not be like what we see in the final breed just like you used the crest for an example for sure 
the crest on any known crested breed such as the bokhara or even hooded breeds like the jacobin were
not the result of random mutation but the result of
working with the mutation to improve it. and that is what you are saying more or less(making sure it stayed alive)and the same applies to colors. again
since our focus is on the archangel (color Pattern)
I personally dont think it was a mutation that occured with a pegion that has that color Pattern
at its final stage like we know it now days but rather it was the result of some color mixing work
for example some one had pegion with a bronze chest
breeded with some other color and so on till he got the desired color as we see it now . ok saying that
we already have the color mutation (red,black,yellow and so on) all are mutation dont you agree. so what I am trying to find out from any one with experience or knowledge if it is possible to get the archangel color Pattern on any given breed . thnxs


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

thank you henk69 for the nice pictures but only the 
second one is of a domestic pegion in fact it is the result of breeding an arabian trumpeter with some other breed (I knew the owner of the bird)and he could never get the same voice back as far as I remember.the rest of the pictures you posted are of wild pegions. I have some real good pictures of pure 
arabian trumpeters with different features and colors but dont know how to post them .


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

ok I hope this works


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

and more of pics


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

and more pics


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

ok one more of the pure and the last two are mix breeds


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I posted these pictures to give a clue how such colors could have been made.
The arabian trumpeter is a cross with another extinct species of pigeon you know...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sanany said:


> sorry if I misunderstood your piont and yes it is true what you have said about random mutation
> acording to my readings but also acording to my understanding that when a mutation first occur it
> would not be like what we see in the final breed just like you used the crest for an example for sure
> the crest on any known crested breed such as the bokhara or even hooded breeds like the jacobin were
> ...


I think your question has been answered, You have 2 choices, outcross the desired colours into your birds, Or take the chances that your birds will randomly mutate all the desired genes to make up the archangel colours, I would think the chances of the latter would be less than 1 in a million but you are likely to be able to cross them in and be back to the desired type with the archangel colouring within 10 - 20 years depending on the size of your operation.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> You need an arch angel (of course) and easiest would be a "non spread" version of the other pigeon you want to cross with. Black pigeons usually are spread, as are good uniform red pigeons. Any type of wing pattern would exclude spread unless it is toy stencilled. Andalusians are also spread.
> 
> The gimpel/archangel factor is a dominant bronze but the heterozygous birds often only have a bronzed body (not the head).


Henk69, A question for you, You say most uniform red pigeons are spread? I have found good uniform red pigeons are reccesive red and that spread red pigeons are actually far from uniform in colour. what do you mean here?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

sanany said:


> I realy dont wish to get in an argumentative religious discussion about creation but we are not talking here about the creation of god almighty.
> instead we are talking about man mixing colors
> to produce a new color .but ok I will rephrase my question:how was the archangel color founded to begin with? end of it thnx.


One thing to remember is that the archangel phenotype is a mix of a few different genes to create its overall genotype, Thats why I suggested that you build a basic knowledge on the inheritance of the seperate genes and then work from there.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Maybe he ment rec red? Probably best to always put ash or rec before the word red. You can get away with it if you say "red bar" or any other pattern but yeah spread need to be clear which red were talking about.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Maybe he ment rec red? Probably best to always put ash or rec before the word red. You can get away with it if you say "red bar" or any other pattern but yeah spread need to be clear which red were talking about.


But reccesive red and spread have nothing to do with each other. He said that uniform reds are spread, They are not they are reccesive red which is different to spread.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Good rec reds are spread. When they are not spread the flights and tail along other areas on the body are not all the same shade.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Most good rec reds are spread yes but I have seen good rec red that are not spread. We cannot put too many rules on genetics as select breeding causes a lot of variations to be possible


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## sanany (Oct 12, 2011)

this is to henk69
(The arabian trumpeter is a cross with another extinct species of pigeon you know )
no actually I did not know that even though I did 
alot of searching about why the arabian trumpeter sound so different from other pegions and I heard
all sort of explanations or should I say opinions
some say it was just a mutation and some say it was the result of a cross breed between a pegion and a dove that for some reason by luck produced a fertile
offsprings. but I never heard that it is a cross with another extinct species of pigeon, which will bring another question to the mind how did that extinct species sounded like and how come it sounded different from other pegions (back to square one) if you have any documents or source of information to support what you said could you plz. post it here. thnx.
and one more question to you or to any one that knows the answer can domestic pegions breed with wild pegions ?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> But reccesive red and spread have nothing to do with each other. He said that uniform reds are spread, They are not they are reccesive red which is different to spread.


Recessive red with spread is the norm I think.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

http://edepot.wur.nl/111702
This dutch article mentions that the pigeon is the domesticated form of the wild "veldtrommelduif" that went extinct 1000 years ago. Not pure science.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> Recessive red with spread is the norm I think.


Yes its the norm but you stated that a good uniform red pigeon is spread. This is not entirely correct as a good uniform pigeon is created with reccesive red and spread is added to help the reccesive red appear more even. I guess if you had said to make a good uniform red you need rec red and spread than that would not have left any room for intepretation.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

If I had to avoid spread I would not take a uniform red. Better?


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