# Need pigeon emergency feeding help pls



## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi all, 
I need some help with my second baby pigeon. 
After his sibling died last night, the parents have not paid any attention. 
I found him dehydrated in the nest with no food in his crop. 

I have read how to emergenecy feed with a syringe. I have the syringe, tube and foodmix, but I need to know how much I should be feeding. 

He looked really dehydrated so I tube 'fed' some water, only a few mils and waited for a few minutes. Then I gave him some more water, and waited for a while. 
He seemed to respond to this a bit, so I fed about 4cc of Avione Bird rearing formula I had (Iused this to syringe feed my parrot when I first got it as a baby, and have heaps left over). 
After another wait I fed him another 4cc of the above formula, and now his crop looks full. 
He is 11 days old, should I repeat feeding every 3-4 hours? more, less? 
Should I tube supply straight water aswell, or will the mix of water and rearing formula be enough for him to survive on? 

He is also repeatedly opening his mouth and letting out small squeeks, is this ok, or does it indicate he needs something or is sick? 

Do I need to keep him at a certain temperature, especially at night? 

I think if I put him back in the nest it will be gone by tomorrow 

Thanks everyone in advance
Alaska


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska, 

Sorry to hear you have having so many problems Sounds like you've got a good start to things. Do you know how long the baby went without food? 

4ml doesn't seem like enough but it's best to go by the crop itself, when it's full and how long it takes to empty to gage when to feed him next. It's generally every few hours at this point however. You should probably keep the formula a little thinner at this point and supplement with the occasional bit of water or rehydration solution.

If he seems ok by tomorrow and hopefully he isn't dehydrated, then you can start to mix the formula to the proper consistancy again and feed until the crop is about 3/4 full. Once it empties, it's time to feed again. 

He shouldn't really need too much extra heat at this age, but just make sure he is warm and cozy. Hope this helps and keep us posted.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks Brad for the advice,
Yesterday morning everything was fine, and when I got back home yesterday evening was when I noticed the other baby was out of the nest. I tried to help that little guy and put him back with his brother but I lost him.
I did notive last night that this one was gasping a little, but it wasn't huge and I thought nothing much of it.
I also noted that he was quite warm last night but the other one was cold. Now he is cold like the other one was, so for the moment I have him sitting beside me wrapped up in a woolen glove to keep his warmth up.
In total I gave him about 9ml of fluids/food (being 1ml of water, then 4ml food, then 4ml food again). I did this in stages as I have never tube fed a baby pigeon, so I wanted to make sure he was ok as I did it. Only after giving him the total 9ml does his crop look full now.
I will mix up the food a little more watery as you suggest to help with his fluids.
Do pigeons feed their babies every 3-4hours (including night time), in other words should I set my alarm clock to feed this little guy?
I probably won't be sleeping well anyhow, keeping a watchful eye on him.
For the moment he seems not too bad, he is in his woolen glove beside me making little gasps.
Will let you know how he progresses
Thanks
Alaska


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska, 

At 11 days old, he doesn't need to be fed during the night. Does this bird have any pin feathers starting now? 

I don't like the fact you mention the bird is gasping You may want to get him on a heating pad for extra warmth, sounds like it could be more serious than thought. 

Also, I'm thinking that smaller feedings and liquids, more frequently would be beneficial at this time. Sure hope he makes it.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Yes, he has good pin feathers, started about two days ago, so I am hoping this will help keep him warm.
I don't have a heating pad, but I have got him wrapped up in a woolen glove and have him held close to me for warmth, I am thinking I may setup a hot water bottle for him to sit on, I also have a halogen light that gives off lots of warmth, perhaps this may be useful to sit over him?
Do you think the gasping is temperature related? I thought it was because he was hungry, but he has been fed for a while now and he is still giving out little gasps.
Alaska


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska, 

Please don't use a halogen lamp over him, they give off way too much heat. If you use the hot water bottles, make sure you put hot water in them and cover with towels. Also, they will cool down and need to be changed, so keep an eye out that the bottle doesn't become too cool.

I'm not sure why he's gasping, gasping is different from panting due to heat though. I sure hope it's not something else though that is causing this. All you can do is provide warmth, food and hope for the best at this point Alaska. The good thing is that at least he's not a newborn and his chances are greater now.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks for your replies Brad, He is quite warm again now, back to how we was before, the gasping has become smaller, more like heavy breathing now, I will let you know how things go for this little guy
Regards
Alaska


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sorry to hear about the other little one Alaska, will be sending positive thoughts your way with this little one.

You can use a light wool blanket to put on top of him at night, anything light that will give warmth and keep any cold drafts off him.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Alaska, sorry to read about the 2nd baby. I don't know if this will help, but I'm posting a picture of a baby (Frosty) we raised and how we kept her warm. If you don't have a heating pad or even a hot water bottle you can use the sterile gloves like in doctors' offices. Fill them with really hot water, tie a knot in the top and place around the cloth that is around the baby. They'll need to be changed every half hour or so. I maybe did overkill with keeping Frosty snug, but we used a larger plastic container with towels in it, then a smaller plastic bowl set in the center of that. You can use 2-3 tissues laid on top of her to keep her warmth in, but still allow her to breathe. 

Your baby's heavy breathing may be from stress, or, make sure the glove or sock you put around her is not too tight.

We feed all the itsy bitsy ones about 15 cc every 2-3 hours, always checking the crop and the poop. I wouldn't overdo the water because she should be getting enough with the formula by now since you initially hydrated her. 

Best wishes, maggie


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## BrianNAmy (Nov 2, 2003)

*Incubator*

You may not be able to use the lamp directly over him without baking him, but there is a way to use it to supply him with some heat.

Here's a picture of a make-shift incubator we have used for a pigeon and a kestrel in the past (Yes, I'm aware of the irony  ). It's just a bread box that we place a heating pad under. You can also leave the door cracked open a bit to allow circulation.

Here's the idea for your lamp though:
Is it a floor lamp or table lamp?
If you can find something similar to this bread box we use, then setup a lamp and a table fan like this - 

-------------------------
|BOX | < |LAMP| < |FAN|
-------------------------

You can use the fan to blow the warm air from the lamp over the box. If you use a box with an adjustable door, then you can keep the door cracked open a bit to allow the warm air to circulate inside the box. Experiment with distance between each of them to find the right temperature.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi alasaka, 


Well, your joint adventure is on!'

For now, just go and spring the four bucks for a cheap heating pad at any Drug Store. It is well worth it.

Keep the Baby 'warm' at all times so that the Baby itself (and not 'just' the Heating Pad) is around one's own body temperature. Keep them free from any drafts or annoyances from Dogs, Cats or children.

Pending my someday edited and polished version of general feed and care proceedures, I can send you some info if you like in regular e-mail if you write to me at [email protected] in your regular e-mail.

Your Baby will certaily be happy to eat on it's own iniative and enthusiasms from the hollow side of a cut off baby Nipple which you hold for them and this is a safe and natural method for them.

Now, Babys are often 'heavy', even 'heaving' breathers...but gasping is another matter.

If yours cotinues to gasp or beak-breathe it may be a sign of Canker and you should regardless, in a strong light, look down it's little throat for any signs of yellow matter in there. Also see if you find any yellow chaulky liquid in the poops...

Have a hand towell on the heating pad and even set a bunch of small short twigs on that...my own method is to set the heating pad i a soft curved "L" against the back of a smallish box and to have the 'nest' as such o the flat part of course...have that in a box on it's side with a light cloth draped over the open side with a few inches gap at the bottom...have all of THAT on a table or dresser top and NO Drafts from air conditioning in that area. Make sure the little one is WARM continuously. Do not feed them if they are not warm.


One may set the Box arrangement ON the flat Heating Pad (is a small box which is too small for the heating pad to fit in, which is usually how I do it) and set the Heating Pad to medium and see how that does...but regardless, the Baby itself needs to be about our own body temperature.

Baby Pigeons will stay put in whatever they construe to be their Nest. So there is no need of any constraints.

The Baby will want to poke it's little butt over the side of whatever it construes to be the nest to poop, for which, make the nest proper something smallish and well defied so it can so construe. eve a wash cloth with some twigs on it will do fine. The Baby will poop over the side of that configuration and not be frustrated with ambiguities.

Let us know?

Good luck! 

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Thankyou all for you suggestions.
It is now morning here in AU, and he has made it through the night ok.
I built a nest in a bowl for him and used an oil heater to keep the room quite warm.
He woke me at 1:15am squeeking for food, and has been fed again this morning.
His gasping has continued and thanks to pdpbison, I have discovered the little yellow dots in his throat, so he has canker.
I have spoken to an excellent Avian Vet here and confirmed canker, plus organised to go and see him now to get appropriate medications to get him better.
Fingers crossed, I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards
Alaska


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi alaska, 

Med-wise, consider to humbly remind the Vet of your council here, or, on your own resources, to remember that most of these anti-protozoan meds (Spartrix, Emtryl, Dimitridazole, Monidazole, etc) are quite hard on small or tender youngsters or Babys and will mess up their nervous systems so they walk like Fred Munster or Frankenstein if even slightly overdosed...and, underdosed is not good either...

"Berimax" and "Ronidazole" while respectively different kinds of medicines, both may be considered quite forgiving and gentlest for Babys or Youngsters, and are both quite effective. 

If you can not get either of those, and time IS of the essence here with this, settle for what you can get or what the Vet has as IS appropriate for this illness, and watch out for the dosage being as correct as possible for this little Bird's size/weight...

Good thing you caught it 'early'..this illness, with Babys, can do them in in a few days if untreated.


This is one 'reason' we sometimes see feral Parents electig to abandon their Babys, sometimes they do not of course, but sometimes they realize the Babys have this illness, or some illness, which precludes optimism on the parent's parts for further attending them...


Let us know what meds you do get, or are provided by your Vet...the meds and the dosage...

Make haste!


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Alaska,
I'm so sorry to hear your little one is feeling a bit under the weather.  

If you do decide purchase a heating pad, I strongly suggest when you need to use it, initially, set the heat on low, as heating pads vary. It's safest to start on the low setting & adjust accordingly, if need be.  

Please keep us posted on how your little patient is coming along.

Cindy


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi all,
I am back from the Avian Vet (took me three hours to drive there and back, but this person is known as being the best Avain Vet around, so I decided to put in the effort to best help my littlen).
He said it was definately Canker, and mixed up some water with a tablet in it he called Canker-Tab, (not sure what active ingredient is in this, remember too that I am in Australia, so the names of medicines are often different).
He also gave me some Turbosole (Ronidasole 12%) which I have mixed up to the recommended dose (he said 4gm per 2litres of water, which I mixed up for my other birds then used some of this mix to add to his handrearing formula) and gave to him, aswell as all my other birds in their water (to stop and prevent any further infections).
Now I can only hope that I have got the treatment in time for him to recover. He is still breathing heavy. Only time will now tell.
I will keep you posted
Regards
Alaska


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hope the baby will have a speedy recovery now.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Keeping fingers crossed for you. Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi alaska,


Oh very good then...

If the Baby is at all active and interested in feeding...I would venture to suggest that the prognosis is excellent.

Appropriate warmth (and being free from any drafts or annoynces) of course is crucial now for his comfort, and his recovery and well being generally...

As is good nutrition and tenderness...

Occasional 'Hand Nest' is fine also, just to hold them in one's cupped hands...

Wow, that was quite a drive!


Good for you...like you had nothing else TO do!
...Lol...

Such is the way of these things sometimes...

I am glad you located a good Avian Vet...

Post some images for us...

I forgot, what are you feeding them?


Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi all,
Thankyou for all your assistance through this difficult time.
Unfortunately he did not make it through last night.
He was a fighter and fought for a long time until he finally got overtaken by illness.
I was holding him in my hand resting in bed when he took his last breath.
Atleast he is in a better place now.
Thankyou
Alaska


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

alaska said:


> Hi all,
> Thankyou for all your assistance through this difficult time.
> Unfortunately he did not make it through last night.
> He was a fighter and fought for a long time until he finally got overtaken by illness.
> ...


I'm sorry to hear the little one didin't make it.  
They do fight so hard but sometimes just can't make it over the hump.

Many thanks to you, Alaska, for all you did. I know it means a lot to them, just as it does with us humans, to have someone nearby who really cares.

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Alaska,

I'm so sorry to hear about the other little one. I know it has been very hard for you, and my thoughts go out to you.

I'm glad the baby passed in the warmth and peace of your company. Know that your comfort meant alot to the baby. I'm sure of it.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry, Alaska.


Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh hell...

The littlest ones are the most fragile in these things...

Good try kiddo..!

oh sigh...


Phil
el ve


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Alaska,
I am so sorry  Hopefully better days ahead for your pigeons, their babies, and you.
Big hug,
Daryl


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*I'm so sorry*

that you lost your little one. I'm glad you were there with him at the end and I'm sure he was too...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska, 


Such a sad outcome with the youngster...I'm sorry It would seem however that canker is prevelant in your loft and I would recommend treating all your adult birds for it right away. Baby pigeons cannot survive the disease and I think this is what is happening here. You vet confirmed canker so it's likely your birds are passing it onto their babies.

I'm sorry this is happening to you but hopefully you will get it under control and have some healthy babies soon.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Thankyou all for your kind words.
Although I have lost a few pigeons lately, this was the first from canker. The first two were due to not being sat on after moving. The third was due to him wandering from the nest. Now this fourth one from Canker 
I have treated all of my pigeons water with the Canker treatment, and I am putting them all on a Deluxe Breeding Health Program to ensure they are on the best of health this season (it's the start of Spring here).
I am still a little confused about how this baby got Canker. My Loft is cleaned daily, all food and water replaced daily, and I have checked all four pigeons and none show any signs of Canker in their throat. I have read that sometimes adults can secrete larger amounts of Trichomonas (Canker) to their young if they are stressed, or babies can develop this if they get a tear in their throat (like from a sharp piece of feed, like corn).
I do know that the parents were rather distressed when the first baby was out of it's nest, and when I took it, then returned it and checked on it a few times, shortly after this was when I first noticed the second baby starting to gasp. Possibly Cecil (who was feeding) was stressed and passed on too many?
Anyhow, If anything has come of this last loss, it is knowledge on how to hand rear, plus a step up on my health programme.
Fingers crossed I will be letting you all now about some healthy babies that make it to weaning soon
Regards
Alaska


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi alaska,


My own understanding, or acceptance, is that the little Protozoan organism Trichomona or Trichomonads, are erstwhile benign free rovers in moist soils all around the Globe.

Many Birds acquire them in small numbers when drinking standing water in incidental puddles after rains or the likes. Of when a Columbiforme is infected with them, it may introduce to a confined water source other drink from, it's own share of these organisms if they were not already there. 

Feces also will contain them if from an infected Bird of any species, and fecies falling into water of course would contribute these little rovers to that Water.

The Organism so far asI recall, does not live very long at all if obliged to suffer dry conditions, so dry fecies I do not think will contain living representatives of them.

These little Organisms then are liable to be present in a background way, in the Bird's system or Crop and normally make no mischiefs or impetuousities if the Bird if healthy and well fed.

If the asymptomatic carrier Bird is stressed sometimes, or, if some conditions or other admit to an increase in the reproductive success of ambient backgroud Trichomonads, then if feeding their Hatchlings or young, these increased Protozoann communitie's populations may be passed to the Baby with it's routine nourishments in being fed. 

The parents may show no symptoms or effects, but, the Baby, oitherwise vibrant and healthy, whose immune system and symbiotic flaura and fauna are only beginning to become established, may be vulnerable, and find perils with the non-symbiotic impetuousities of the Trichomonad's taking advantage of the opportunity to increase their population at the expence, ultimately, of their host.

Also, similarly in evetuation, this will occur in adult Birds if starved from not being able fliers yet to find grazeing opportunities, or from injury and inablilty to find sufficient food in grazing from not flying, or as may be, if their system's resources become diminished from privation, stress and compromise from whatever cause.

The advance of the illness will tend to be rapid in Babys, and, relatively slow in adults who from privation, slowly yeild to it's opportunism.

It seems also the Organism sometimes opportunes in otherwise small incidental nicks or other slight injuries of the mouth or inside Beak areas as well as the throat.

But appearently, if I understand this correctly, adult Birds raising Babys, who are for all practical purposes healthy and vibrant Adults in every way, may still pass to their Babys, sufficient numbers of the organism, if the background population numbers of the organism should somehow find succour or opportunity to increase.

This may have nothing for co-relation with the hygenics of the loft per-se, nor with the otherwise good quality of care these Adults have recieved as a matter of course, since the Organism may have been present in small background numbers since their adolescence or young adulthoods or as may be.

The Protozoan is also conveyed to new hosts from common sources of drinking Water, since usually, when Columbiformes drink, some small amount of the Water they are drinking, from below the level of their feet usually, or if from bowls, then of course a little higher, but some little bit of that water back flushes out, and may carry with it, some of the Organisms...these then, taken in by others, may effect a usually benign infestation or background presence, pending the opportunity for impetuousity and opportunism.

The new product 'Berimax' seems very meritorious to me, and I have used it with success in Canker in youngsters and adults.

I believe it will eradicate the otherwise non symptomatic background populations of the Trichomonads, and hence may be useful as a regimin for Bitds who one expects to raise young, as well as a good general treatment for any of our Birds just on principle.

Unlike drugs as such, this product is uderstood to be quite forgiveing in dosage matters and an overdose would have to be truely heavy handed if it could happen at all...it also seems to offer a wide range of ancillary benifits for discourageing the replications of many other undesireable opportunistic organisms, and is quite benign and forgiveing in dosage for those Birds we may adminster it to. It mixes in their Water. It tastes like when you bite into a Grapefruit peel.

I am useing it routinely now, on all new Birds and for anyone whose poops seem less than happy looking.

It may be had Mail Order with a 'google' search, from the proprietary suppliers in various countries...and, would be good to have on hand I think, as with some other traditional meds one may sometimes need.

As we may recall, many drugs, the so called anti-biotics, and as I understand it also, the Berimax in it's way, effect their influence by discourageing the offending micro-organisms from reproduceing...so that the immune system of the host may address them in it's own ways to eliminate them.

It may be also that some drugs, and also the Berimax, also do something more which compromises the offending micro-organism further, or even kills it somehow, I do not know.

The companion or sibling product to the Berimax, and related to it of course, is the 'Citromed' which also seems promiseing...and is used for a wide variety of maladys.

Rambley...

Yours, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi Phil,
Thankyou for your explanation, this confirms to me that it is possible that the increased Trichomonads may have been secreted from Cecil to this baby, perhaps even he scraped the babies throat area which may have also caused this problem, which in turn has been too much for the baby to handle as his immune system was not yet fully developed to cope with this.
All of my birds are kept within my loft, and none of them are released to fly, so it is unlikely that they picked these up from an external source, however, Cecil (the father) did come to me from 'the wild', so it is quite likely that he had these Trichomonads present in background numbers within his crop, and may have also passed this on to his mate Ruby, through drinking water.
I have used a product recommended by the vet called Turbosole, which sounds very similar in purpose to the Berimax you have mentioned, which treats for Trichomonas, Hexamita, Cochlosoma and Giardia infections, and I will continue to use this as a preventative in their water to ensure that any background threats are eliminated, and I hopefully end up with some healthy babies 
Regards
Alaska


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think that the Babys in particular may get the Trichomona infesting their tiny Tonsils...even as we may get Tonsilitis of various kinds...

I have often seen various sized localizations of the yellow 'cottage cheese' cubes or forms on each side of the back of their throat...

This may not require any nick or scratch in my imagining, but could occur merely from the Protozoans being ingested and localizeing there in their infestation/infection site...as well then that they also may begin mischiefs through out the Bird or Baby's entire digestive tract...

Phil
Las Vegas


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