# Broken leg feral died today, Humphrey has weird poops now?!?!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, the broken leg pijjie, who was in a brace, seen by a vet a few weeks ago, was fine yesterday, then this morning he looked horrible, head down, eyes closed, laying with head to side, felt cold, looked almost dead. I put heat on him, put him back in his little nest, and had to leave, came back at lunch and he was dead. Went to bury the poor baby...
Humphrey has had wet poops for a few days now, and i am really worried because a few weeks ago i had a canker bird that died the first night i had him. The broken leg and canker were in separate cages, with sheets covering them, but what is worrying me is when i look up wet poops, PMV is coming up as a cause. Humphrey has no other symptoms, what is worrying me is the PMV survivor bird i have DOESNT have wet poops, and that would make SENSE if he didnt because he is IMMUNE to PMV.
The broken leg pijjie MIGHT have had wet poops too but he was always knocking his water everywhere. I am wondering if this could be yeast or coccidia also, and what i can give to Humphrey? My PMV bird might have not gotten anything because he basically has a few spots he likes and doesnt venture far, while Humphrey likes to get everywhere, now, the broken leg and canker cages were covered, but if something was airborne, or a seed got flung out with yeast or coccidia, he could of gotten something.
Crap, what do i do? This is why i dont like having house birds while rehabbing too, and i was bringing these two to their new home this weekend with a certain member on here (dont know if they would want me to say?) but i wont put their birds at risk or my birds either.
What i am thinking is i need to keep them here longer, like quarantine them and treat them here, no rehabs, until Humphrey is treated and better to keep everyone involved safe. BUT what do i treat for? What do i give if he was exposed to PMV to fight off a viral infection? I DID give him flagyl and baytril because i read through threads that mentioned that here, and that was this morning, and his poops look a LITTLE more solid now. About 2 days ago they were watery with strips of green solid, then this morning it was a bright green sloppy mess, right now its a bit more solid. I also added ACV water, collidial silver.
I gave the collidial silver and ACV, plus medistatin, to broken leg pijjie. I was HOPING he made it until lunch so when i came back i could get on here and we could figure out what to do. I am hoping Humphreys watery poops isnt related, but i want to be safe. The broken leg pijjie was being treated with ciprofloxacin for potential bone infection, and i was giving him acv water all along...
I wanted him to make it so BAD!!!


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

I m so sorry to hear your situation. I think you doing good with a Baytril for any bacteria and with Flagyl , specially if you saying his poop looks better now somehow. What i always do , when knot sure of what i m doing, cause may be so many things, i run to vet to do fecal and stains, so then, you can cross some staff and decide on others or when lucky , you have your answer right there with tests. Keep up with Baytrill. If poop is changed somehow as you said i would not go for Coccidia treatment
Keep us posted all.write about any changes.Wish you best. 
Ne;;


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

I am really sorry about the poor little broken leg pigeon. Unexpected deaths are difficult to deal with as in spite of the sorrow your immediate thoughts will inevitably be "what caused it and has it affected my other pigeons?".

Bright green sloppy droppings are a symptom of bacterial enteritis. Baytril tackles that.

The "wet" PMV poops that I have seen were so wet that they were just pale green water and there was absolutely loads of it because the pigeon was drinking so much water. A pool of urine with a small worm of green solids of green solid are more typical of PMV, but is actually caused by constipation and kidney damage, if it was PMV causing that I don't think that you would see an improvement in such a short time.

Other causes of wet poops are too much salt or minerals, plant poisons and salmonella.

If you are thinking PMV, where do you think the infection came from?

The trichomonads that cause canker don't last very long outside the pigeon, and if the symptoms of canker would have appeared within 6 days of infection.

When my pidgies have any intestinal upset I give them probiotics first to see if that settles the problem. It works well and I have found out that vets are also giving dogs and cats probiotics before resorting to antibiotics.

I was about to send a pigeon to another member when I saw a tiny spot on his beak...that turned out to be pox, so I have kept him here and have the same fears (could another pigeon have caught it?)

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, we shall see if anything happens if the next day or so. Wish me luck, and thanks for the advice. Hopefully his poops continue to get better!


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

wishing you luck and good pooping 

Nell


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, his poops are extra watery, like it is soaking the paper in the cage. Wet green slop to go with that, sometimes a bit of white urates. 
Ok, the canker bird that died, i dont think that canker was spread, but i started thinking maybe that bird had something ELSE, namely PMV, that spread?
Humphrey isnt showing other symptoms, EXCEPT he has thrown up a few times, but that was after i tubed in some medistatin, collidial silver, and his meds. The only OTHER thing is his cooing sounds a bit different, and last night he seemed more tired then usual. 
what else should i be doing here? I am keeping him caged except for a bit of flight time outside cage.... ????


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Salmonella, coccidia, what is treatment for that? Just curious...
Also, what is it that they can get from mice droppings? I have ONE mouse that lives in that room, and i havent even worried about it until now, and i feel really stupid for that...
I just hate evicting this tiny field mouse, that mouse was actually another rehab i had a few years back that escaped his cage and now lives in that room, so i am unsure what to do here....


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

terramycin for Salmonella. I m looking for rodents

Pasteurella is indigenous in rodents.will look for more
Nell


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Raina,

I'm so sorry to hear about the piji with the broken leg passing away. I know you tried soooo hard and had so much hope for him  RIP little guy.

I know how worried you are about poor Humphrey. I'm saying some prayers that he recoups REAL soon! Please keep us posted on any new developments. {{{hugs}}}


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Yersinia, Erysipelothrix


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Sorry for the loss  I lost 4 young pigeons, week and a half old today


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

but that is just crazy, cause rodens carry a lot of stuff, you will never pinpoint the right one, or should i say chances of knowing , which one is like....i dunno
Do the test.Do you have time to do the tests??

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> terramycin for Salmonella. I m looking for rodents
> 
> Pasteurella is indigenous in rodents.will look for more
> Nell



Hi X, corvid, 




Terramyin...also known as Oytetracyline...


Watery poops could be any of endless things...


Enteritis...in effect, probably...so the question then, is what is occasioning enteritis..?


If not Coccidiosis...if not early PPMV...


Then...it's a shot-in-the-dark without 'tests' or prior syndrome-empiricals.


'Terramycin' I think would be a good bet to try...even adding Metronidazole...and 'ACV Water'...Medistatin...concurrently...


Tube these in, in solution, together...if the Bird is not actively drinking...or along with formula made with ACV-Water, if the Bird is not eating...


'Head down'...like-a-tired-Horse, is one 'look' of PPMV when in younger Pigeons...with this appearance, usually, the digestive system shuts down...also. 


Provide definite 'warmth'...



So...


Just a couple thoughts anyway...


Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

terramycin, well, can i add that WITH flagyl AND baytril? And what is another name for terramycin, dont know if i even have any?
Ok, his poops are a bit more solid, but still very wet and sloppy, and he isnt having other symptoms either. No PMV like symptoms, but i know that could come. I am hoping it's bacterial. What is weird though is my PMV survivor (i gotta name him!) doesnt have any symptoms, great poops.
Humphrey IS eating and drinking, and besides the poops, seems fine. It just worries me broken leg had poops weird for a day or so, then died so suddenly. He seemed fine one night, next morning looked horrible, died by lunchtime... Canker died suddenly too, but i only had him for less then a day. When i saw the poops from broken leg, i just tjought yeast or something because of the antibiotics he had been on, so i added medistatin and ACV water, but whatever it was it was too late. That vet is gonna be very sad because he worked very hard on that bird.
Oh i see Phil, you posted about what terramycin is called, ok, i gotta search my meds and see what i have....... I know worst comes to worst i can buy it for fish from a pet store? Where do they get salmonella anyways?
Looks like i'm gonna have to evict that mouse, i cant handle all this wondering. I actually dont even know if that mouse is in there anymore, but i'll pick up a have-a-heart trap anyhow...
Corvid, what do you mean tests? Like from a vet get a fecal done?

Thanks everyone, and Dez, thanks so much, you are a real sweetheart! I just KNOW Humphrey will pull through this, he has a long happy life to live in his new loft with all the girls he wants! I wont be taking any rescues until i get this settled, and have him quarantined for a bit until he gets better to go to his new home. Also, if it is something like PMV, the newbies could get it also, so i gotta be very careful...


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

i mean fecal flotation and gram stains. Yes by vet.Cause is shooting in the black with your situation, as you noticed by your self.Salmon ella also comes from rodents carring it, birds, flies. S. enters through the oral route, but contamineted dust from feces and feathers may play aerogenic spread, what books are saying.

Nell


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, good news, his poops have been more solid since this morning, way more solid considering how wet they have been, it's a little raisin instead of s big slop of goo, so i think it is working, whatever it is...
I went to pet store, and realized fish zole is metronidizole, not tetracycline, which they dont even carry fishzole anymore anyhow. but i got something called tetracycline, but considering his poops look better, i will stick to the flagyl, baytril, ACV and medistatin, also collidial silver.....

Gonna relocate mouse also, he's gonna go out to the country somewhere. gotta catch him first....


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

yes, ma`am....LOL
Best wishes . Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, good news, his poops have been more solid since this morning, way more solid considering how wet they have been, it's a little raisin instead of s big slop of goo, so i think it is working, whatever it is...
> I went to pet store, and realized fish zole is metronidizole, not tetracycline, which they dont even carry fishzole anymore anyhow. but i got something called tetracycline, but considering his poops look better, i will stick to the flagyl, baytril, ACV and medistatin, also collidial silver.....
> 
> Gonna relocate mouse also, he's gonna go out to the country somewhere. gotta catch him first....




Good luck..!


e-bay has quite a few 'fish' meds...easy to buy at liesure without having to leave your house.


Canker Pigeons can have other infections going on...of course, and ould be anything, so...very glad to hear things seem better today..!


I have the same problems here...we getgreat improvements with a Canker issue, but things start sliding from some other sort of infection whichhad opportuned...the meds that worked great on the last one, do not necessarily help on the next one's issue.


I have four presently, where Baytril had not helped...finally switched to Tetraycline, and they were looking a lot better in less than a day...this was yesterday...


Oye...


Fingers crossed...

Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Thaks Phil, his poops seem better still, so i am crossing my fingers....
Oh, yes, the first summer i was doing this, flagyl seemed to kill the canker, this last summer, flagyl didnt seem to work, i found spartix to work really well and have had people on here say they prefer it, but i still use flagyl, sometimes spartix, depending on how bad it seems.
I am starting to think broken leg had something else going on that the vet wouldnt of picked up on because he just does the least amount possible, considering he is donating his time, services, etc for a donation, he doesnt go very deep in treating the birds, so no fecals, i SHOULD have thought to start some other med myself, but it didnt happen, and now i feel horrible guilty because that bird's break was healing and everything....
But, such is life, and i tried, and that is more then most people do, and i know you are the same Phil, and we all appreciate that here. I have always believed doing something is better then doing nothing......
I hope your 4 keep doing better, i know they are in the best of hands so i am sure they will be fine!


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

I remember reading somewhere about it, and there it is.Recurring trichomoniasis is common in flocks with endemic herpesvirus.

Did sound a bell when you mentioned canker in your flocks. Just another possibility. As far as the signs you seeing now with your PJ - that may be a herpesvirus.
Hope PJ will be doing okay for you.
Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> I remember reading somewhere about it, and there it is.Recurring trichomoniasis is common in flocks with endemic herpesvirus.
> 
> Did sound a bell when you mentioned canker in your flocks. Just another possibility. As far as the signs you seeing now with your PJ - that may be a herpesvirus.
> Hope PJ will be doing okay for you.
> Nell




Hi corvid,



Any info/insight about how-to-tell if Herpesvirus is causing mischeif?

Or, what to do about it, if it is?


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi 'X',






xxmoxiexx said:


> Thaks Phil, his poops seem better still, so i am crossing my fingers....




Oh good...




> Oh, yes, the first summer i was doing this, flagyl seemed to kill the canker, this last summer, flagyl didnt seem to work, i found spartix to work really well and have had people on here say they prefer it, but i still use flagyl, sometimes spartix, depending on how bad it seems.



Yes...it's that way here too, though usually Metronidazole seems to work best.


The old, long-since unobtainable 'BERIMAX' was THE absolue "BEST"...


Sure wish I could get some again...




> I am starting to think broken leg had something else going on that the vet wouldnt of picked up on because he just does the least amount possible, considering he is donating his time, services, etc for a donation, he doesnt go very deep in treating the birds, so no fecals, i SHOULD have thought to start some other med myself, but it didnt happen, and now i feel horrible guilty because that bird's break was healing and everything....





I lost one yesterday...very old feral...had the daunting 'Throat' Canker, clogged solid...neck swollen like he had a Walnut in there.


Was able to twirl-wriggle a short length of No. 8 Catheter with a 'Julianne' end cut, through minute fissures in there...to get in formula and meds...directly into his Crop.


Anyway, everything went so well...for a week...Wednesday, he was 'pacing' and climbing in his cage even, wanting to be outside with the ferals...


Throat had enough clear passage by then to almost be on Seeds again...the enormous 'lump' was down to 1/4th it's previous size...I was so happy, he was so happy...then...in-a-day, he just suddenly sank...and died.


Damn...


I'd had him on Baytril too...and medistatin...


I dunno...I dunno what happenned.





> But, such is life, and i tried, and that is more then most people do, and i know you are the same Phil, and we all appreciate that here. I have always believed doing something is better then doing nothing......
> I hope your 4 keep doing better, i know they are in the best of hands so i am sure they will be fine!




Thanks...


Atually...there were Seven...Seven bad Canker ones all overlapping...who all arrived over a couple weeks.


The one I mentioned, died...


Two, after a month now, are wonderfully alright...have their weight back, everything seems normal and good...soon to go into free-fly, pre-release...bright, 'perky'...


Four...of the four, two seem to be getting better...two are very 'dim'...these have beenhere two weeks or so.


Of these, they all HAD gotten over their Canker...all four did...but then something went bad...all of these four also, got over the Canker say, in a week...were eating well, good poops...preening...then suddenly started sinking...

The two 'better' ones of the four...poop slook normal...


The other two, poops are a little loose, one making tan-color fecal matter...the other, green...all four have white Urates since ceasesation of their Canker...


Had them on Baytril...that was not helping...feared I was going to loose them...switched to Tetracycline, and two have been improving, two not...


Have been treating with Medistatin also, AND resumed Metronidazole as of two days ago...



What to do???



There's some secondary illnesses, possibly, not even the same secondary illness with two, as the other two have...



These four...stopped eating four days ago...so, been tube-feeding...


I dunno...


Doxy?

Pennacillin?

Tylosin?


...sigh...


Anyway...my Vet would not have much to offer as for resolving this dilemma either...


Hard-to-think sometimes...



Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I remember reading somewhere about it, and there it is.Recurring trichomoniasis is common in flocks with endemic herpesvirus.


canaryjayne suspects that a lot of the birds pigeons that she picks up when she is feeding various flocks have Pigeon Herpesvirus.

Aciclovir might help in these cases, but it is expensive ( at least here, where it is £54 for 100 ml on a private prescription from the pharmacy . This, and Zovirax applied to the lesions is what I am using on my woodie with pigeon pox, although the pigeonpox virus isn't a herpesvirus and its effect on pox is unknown. It is a drug that can affect the kidney. Grimaldy looked up the dose for me, it is 80mg per kg/bw, PO (by mouth) TID (three times a day)

Raina, I was going to scan a few pages on herpesvirus from one of my books for Jayne, I can e-mail them to you too, if you want them (and to anyone else who is interested) , but I will need you to PM me your e-mail address.

Cynthia


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Serous rhinitis and conjunctivitis are usually the first clinical signs of disease.The nares become occluded and grayish-mucoid exudate causes dyspnea. Paresis of the third eyelid is possible.Tremors,ataxia and inability to fly may occur in some birds.As a group, herpesviruses generally induce LATENT and PERSISTENT infections (for weeks,months,years or lifetime) in adapted host with irregular periods of recrudescence and shedding. Latently infected birds can remain asymptomatic for years.Concomitant disease, environmental stressors or hormonal changes have all been associated with induction of disease and activation of shedding.Latently infected birds may shed virions via the feces,nasal discharge or desquamated skin(thereby endangering neighboring birds) without developing clinical signs.
Small diphteroid foci on the pharynx and larynx (which develop into so-called sialoliths) are indicative of an ACTIVE INFECTION.Recurring trichomoniasis is common in floks with endemic herpesvirus Air sacculitis,peritonitis,necrotic hepatitis and occasionally necrosis in the kidney,pancreas and spleen.The virus may olso induce only necrotic hepatitis.(RITCHIE,HARRISON,&HARRISON)
Have no clue what you do once you have active infection.This book says nothing as long as treatment for it goes.

Nell


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, i am sure it isnt PMV now, because now my PMV survivor started the wet poops, so i think it is something bacterial, considering PMV cannot catch PMV twice, at least i dont THINK? 
Humphrey's poops are so much better, and he seems better too. I will start PMV on same meds, and hopefully they'll be all better soon! Oh, i am so happy! How horrible is it that i was happy to see PMV have wet poops? PMV scares me, so i was happy to know Humphrey hadnt gotten PMV.......


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Serous rhinitis and conjunctivitis are usually the first clinical signs of disease.The nares become occluded and grayish-mucoid exudate causes dyspnea. Paresis of the third eyelid is possible.Tremors,ataxia and inability to fly may occur in some birds.As a group, herpesviruses generally induce LATENT and PERSISTENT infections (for weeks,months,years or lifetime) in adapted host with irregular periods of recrudescence and shedding. Latently infected birds can remain asymptomatic for years.Concomitant disease, environmental stressors or hormonal changes have all been associated with induction of disease and activation of shedding.Latently infected birds may shed virions via the feces,nasal discharge or desquamated skin(thereby endangering neighboring birds) without developing clinical signs.
> Small diphteroid foci on the pharynx and larynx (which develop into so-called sialoliths) are indicative of an ACTIVE INFECTION.Recurring trichomoniasis is common in floks with endemic herpesvirus Air sacculitis,peritonitis,necrotic hepatitis and occasionally necrosis in the kidney,pancreas and spleen.The virus may olso induce only necrotic hepatitis.(RITCHIE,HARRISON,&HARRISON)
> Have no clue what you do once you have active infection.This book says nothing as long as treatment for it goes.
> 
> Nell




Hi Nell,



I am fairly confident I have never seen this then.

While Canker has been fairly common here, it has been constantly changing in various ways through the years...but, these changes have not included any instanes I recall, of the symptoms you reference above, where Herpesvirus would be suggested.


Thank you for these conversations, they are much appreciated..!


PPMV is not rare here...not frequent either, but occasional, I guess one ould say.


Canker used to be usually by itself, with no secondary illness accompanying or trailing.


Lately, various secondary illnesses appear to 'trail' it...where, for having got over the Canker, the Pigeon then becomes ill with something else.


Possibly, the 'worst two' present convelesents are improved today, from yesterday...they were standing Eyes open, facing out...where, previously, they stood Eyesclosed, faing the back of the Cage...


Oxytetracyline, Metronidaole, and Medistatin a.m., Baytril p.m. was their regimen yesterday...which I figured we'd stay with for a week if it seemed promising...so...


We'll see...


One thing which has seemed to 'trail' these Canker ones lately, is a Yeast or Candida illness...along with whatever else.





Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Ok, i am sure it isnt PMV now, because now my PMV survivor started the wet poops, so i think it is something bacterial, considering PMV cannot catch PMV twice, at least i dont THINK?
> Humphrey's poops are so much better, and he seems better too. I will start PMV on same meds, and hopefully they'll be all better soon! Oh, i am so happy! How horrible is it that i was happy to see PMV have wet poops? PMV scares me, so i was happy to know Humphrey hadnt gotten PMV.......




Hi 'X',



Would you describe in detail the 'wet poops' you were seeing?


Urates too...


Anything else...too...



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Phil 

Why you using Oxytetracyline?
I understand you have Metronidazole for canker, Medistatin its i presume Nystatin for Candidia, and Baytril to cover gram + or gram - whatever bacteria.
I m just asking, cause I never had to use Oxy with Baytril same time, i mean in same bird at same time. I know , that the old school was: "hit them with everything you have", but we finding now , they were just bad teachers. I guess im being noisy as i do belong to the noisy circle. I just wanna say stay with Baytrill. You cant treat chlamydia without the tests.And Doxy is the drug of choicee for it.I m afraid they may be failing on their backs due to all the medications interference (Baytril and Oxy), as they coming already compromised due to canker and emaciated. 

Nell


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, the poops WERE huge clear wet splotches, with dark green tidbits of a string of solid stuff. Looked like the string of solid had broken up upon exit? Sorry, best way to explain it! But he was also having pea green poops, with no urates visible seperate, that was just very liquidy, but not total liquid, but it would SPLATTER as it fell. Now he is having more solid, with dark forest green with white urates, still somewhat wet and softer, but it falls into a neat little ball rather then a splat.
I was using diapers on him, but have since taken him off and put him in the cage. Someone told me they can catch something bacterial from the diapers, but they wouldnt if you clean them off good and change them often, which i did.
i dont know, i'm at a loss here....


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

xx..how many days he is on Baytril already??

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Phil
> 
> Why you using Oxytetracyline?
> I understand you have Metronidazole for canker, Medistatin its i presume Nystatin for Candidia, and Baytril to cover gram + or gram - whatever bacteria.
> ...





Hi Nell,



Ohhhh...please DO feel free and invited TO be 'Nosy'..!



I enjoy and appreiate your in-put...anytime.


I'll skip the 'Baytril'...they only had it one day anyway...far as present course.


Prior course...Baytril was not helping.


Anyway...had started them on Oxytetrayline...but, am considering instead to use Doxy-Tylosin.


I do not know what they have...no way to get any 'tests' anyway.


BUT...they are better today...so...if the Oxytetracyline was helping...maybe the Doxy-TL would help even better.


My Vet has not shown enthusiasm for my requesting 'tests' in the past...though I am thinking to see him Monday, and try and get some tests done.


I need to learn to do these...Cultures...Microsope Work...it's just my days are so full and hard-pressed as it is.

Between 'Work' and 'Birds' I am lucky to just make a fast Sandwhich now and then...and grab a little sleepfor a few hours when tired.


I elected Oxytetrayline...just-on-a-hunch...the Baytril was not helping...they'd been off the Metronidazole for a week...figured to resume the Metronidazole for it's Gram-Negative and Anaerobe margain...since I am dealing with unknown illness...and they were going 'down' fast.




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Ok, the poops WERE huge clear wet splotches, with dark green tidbits of a string of solid stuff. Looked like the string of solid had broken up upon exit? Sorry, best way to explain it! But he was also having pea green poops, with no urates visible seperate, that was just very liquidy, but not total liquid, but it would SPLATTER as it fell. Now he is having more solid, with dark forest green with white urates, still somewhat wet and softer, but it falls into a neat little ball rather then a splat.
> I was using diapers on him, but have since taken him off and put him in the cage. Someone told me they can catch something bacterial from the diapers, but they wouldnt if you clean them off good and change them often, which i did.
> i dont know, i'm at a loss here....





Hi 'X',




Ahhhhh...



Sounds 'PPMV-ish'...but other things can do it too...


Have you got meds for Coccidiosis?


...e-coli?


ACV-Water would probably be good...


Just-a-thought...


Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

No, no dont skeep baytril. I would prefer for you to skip the other one.For what you do use the other one??Nell


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i DO have doxy, aka oxytetracycline, but havent used it for him yet.
Phil, what would be the meds for ecoli and salmonella? I probably have something for it, if you tell me what those meds are! 
ok, Humphrey has been on Baytril and Flagyl with ACV and medistatin since the 5th, and his poops look better, I started PMV bird (as in PMV survivor, had it about a year ago, another rescue) so i started him on the meds yesterday. He started to have the same poops with broken up string of forest green in big puddle of clearish water.....
How long should i keep Humphrey on meds? I think the flagyl only needed to be 3 or 4 days? Should i stop that? Anything i should change? I am afraid once i stop medistatin the poops will go bad again? Is that possible that medistatin will correct the poops, the SYMPTOM of the problem, while thinking the meds worked? If you understand what i am saying, sorry!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can use Medistatin with no worries about drug interactions, especially seeing as how it doesn't absorb.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, i DO have doxy, aka oxytetracycline, but havent used it for him yet.
> Phil, what would be the meds for ecoli and salmonella? I probably have something for it, if you tell me what those meds are!
> ok, Humphrey has been on Baytril and Flagyl with ACV and medistatin since the 5th, and his poops look better, I started PMV bird (as in PMV survivor, had it about a year ago, another rescue) so i started him on the meds yesterday. He started to have the same poops with broken up string of forest green in big puddle of clearish water.....
> How long should i keep Humphrey on meds? I think the flagyl only needed to be 3 or 4 days? Should i stop that? Anything i should change? I am afraid once i stop medistatin the poops will go bad again? Is that possible that medistatin will correct the poops, the SYMPTOM of the problem, while thinking the meds worked? If you understand what i am saying, sorry!



Hi 'X',



Are there any other symptoms beside the poops/urates being 'off'?


How do these two Pigeons look, all in all?


Appetite...drinking...fluffed-up...facing the back of or looking out interestedly from their Cage? etc?





Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

XX
Finish Baytril , which i would go for all together 7 days (you do tablets?? or shots??)
Normally we do shots or tablets for 10 days only with compound fractures, where tissue is exposed and stuff like that, for adult bird without above I would stay 7 days on Bytril.(1x day) Flagyl is for 5 days .Medistatin ??? do you mean Nystatin (Mycostatin) like for Candidasis??, then 2x day for 7-10 days. Do not use any probiotics right now (like any lactobacillus or any thing to that nature, as long as you going with antibiotics. You will work on his flora gout , after antibiotic course is done, otherwise,you will contradict antibiotic work.) If you see poop improving , there is no need to jump to anything else, or change the antibiotics, or adding anything new. 
But like I said , do not contradict antibiotic with any lactoba or any other dead, or live culture, cause you will not see improvement either, do to that reason.Its kind of like you would not give an antibiotic, altho you giving it.

Nell


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Salmonella, coccidia, what is treatment for that? Just curious...
> Also, what is it that they can get from mice droppings? I have ONE mouse that lives in that room, and i havent even worried about it until now, and i feel really stupid for that...
> I just hate evicting this tiny field mouse, that mouse was actually another rehab i had a few years back that escaped his cage and now lives in that room, so i am unsure what to do here....


Moxie, Salmonella and paratyphoid is the same thing. You keep birds in a room with a mouse living free, and you don't think that the mouse is going to go after the seed in the birds cages?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> XX
> Finish Baytril , which i would go for all together 7 days (you do tablets?? or shots??)
> Normally we do shots or tablets for 10 days only with compound fractures, where tissue is exposed and stuff like that, for adult bird without above I would stay 7 days on Bytril.(1x day) Flagyl is for 5 days .Medistatin ??? do you mean Nystatin (Mycostatin) like for Candidasis??, then 2x day for 7-10 days. Do not use any probiotics right now (like any lactobacillus or any thing to that nature, as long as you going with antibiotics. You will work on his flora gout , after antibiotic course is done, otherwise,you will contradict antibiotic work.) If you see poop improving , there is no need to jump to anything else, or change the antibiotics, or adding anything new.
> But like I said , do not contradict antibiotic with any lactoba or any other dead, or live culture, cause you will not see improvement either, do to that reason.Its kind of like you would not give an antibiotic, altho you giving it.
> ...




Hi Nell...'X'...



Indeed...those Pigeons who have more-than-mild Canker...when complicated by additional kinds of typically un-nown illness or systemic infection, can tend to develop Candida or Yeast problems in their Crops and digestive systems.

Antibiotics in these cases tend to enourage Candida/Yeasts also, by incidentally supressing segments of the Bird's erstwhile endemic fauna-flora.


Hence, Nystatin or Medistatin...and 'ACV-Water'.


Canker-wise, or in other situations where it may be used, Metronidazole will be enhanced by the Bird's system being more acidic.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Moxie, Salmonella and paratyphoid is the same thing. You keep birds in a room with a mouse living free, and you don't think that the mouse is going to go after the seed in the birds cages?




As far as I know...Paratyphoid is one expression, of merely one kind of Salmonella.


Saying they are the same thing, is like saying PPMV is the same thing as Newcastle.


PPMV is a subset of Newcastle...even as paratyphoid is a subset of wider Salmonella strains/organisms.




Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Phil, I merely meant that paratyphoid is caused by salmonella, and I have heard it used pretty much interchangeably around here. But, as usual, you have made the correction.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Mice as vectors for salmonella*

I don't know what the situation is in the US, but here in the UK field mice are not listed by the Department of Environment, Fisheries, Agriculture and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) as a significant vector of salmonella for poultry and pigs in their salmonella surveillance.

House mice are listed and in one study 11 out of 41 house mouse fecal samples tested proved positive for salmonella.

Of the 46 feral pigeons tested one was positive.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/vla/reports/docs/rep_oie06.pdf

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i HAD a mouse living in there, and havent seen him for a long, long time. Besides, when he WAS there, he was in the closet, and i stuck his own bag of seed in there to munch on. I dont even think he is there anymore. I just brought that up as a possibility.
i also had this mouse BEFORE i got into helping birds, and it isnt a COLONY of mice, just one mouse. My landlord sprays the building, except my apartment, and no, all the little mice dont run to my apartment. They all die in my respective neighbors apartment. I totally understand why someone would want to get rid of mice, but i dont like to poison anything, and contrary to what people think, you cant just drive a mouse 5 miles away and he will find a new home and all will be well, mice have TERRITORIES, and they will kill other mice to defend it. I have learned a lot about mice when i was trying to catch the sucker again in the first place. Someone that was a member here knew a lot about them and tried to help, but didnt happen. So, i dont even KNOW if he is there, but it is a possibility. 
And Jay3, thats why i mentioned it, so dont speak to me as if i am an idiot.

Everyone, Humphrey and PMV are doing much better, the poops and everything. Corvid, Phil, Pidgey, thanks for your help! And jeez, Pidgey, i have been WONDERING where you have been! Usually you are the first to post on my threads! It's nice some other folks have pitched in too though, it started to seem like me and Pidgey were pen pals online! 

Oh, Cynthia, i know i've probably said this before, but i LOVE the quote at the bottom of your page, kind of reminds me of my mouse and pigeon dilemma!


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Everyone, Humphrey and PMV are doing much better, the poops and everything.


That is SUCH wonderful news Raina  I was worried - so glad you had so many knowledgeable people helping out. 

I was thinking - why not name your PMV guy/girl Survivor - may not seem very creative now, but down the road it may just have a "ring" to it... 

Give Humphrey & PMV a scritch for me!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi 'X',



Glad to hear..!



We might as well just dye our Hair grey and get it over with...worrying about these outcomes all-the-time...


My 'worst two'...were tentatively pecking Seeds today...and have been Eyes-open and looking out of their Cages, no longer 'Artichoke-Birds'...so...fingers still crossed...


Other two are pecking...preening, brighter...though still not-out-of-the-woods...



Two prior-batch ( of Canker-whatnot-else ) self released yesterday...having got nocely well and nice weight and all...



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Hi Dez! Yep, they are both guys! Oh, wait, that gives me an idea, who sang that song that, Oh, Dez, you are awesome! You know that band Survivor? Sang "eye of the tiger," that 80's song? Ok, i'm gonna name him Tiger! There, solved! I knew it would come! Now i have a story on how he got named, and you helped Dez!
Yep, both boy birds, gotta have their own cages, there own perch, they will fight and coo each other to death! They both want girlfriends and anytime a gal comes in they both fight to get the best spot to peer in the cage. Gotta put a stop to even peeking now! What little peeping toms, huh? Thats why i feel so bad keeping them, unless they turn gay on me, which i think would be awesome to have gay pigeons!

Nice Phil, that your guys got better, good luck with that! Thats funny, never heard that, artichoke birds! Cute!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have that same mouse dilemma but multipled several times. I have to relocate the mice because of their numbers, but it is difficult because even if there are no other house mice in a territory there are predators.

I made the mistake of putting a mouse from the house in a container with a mouse from the garden ready for relocation, and the second mouse was dead in the morning. What I do now is provide a bumble bee box for the mice to "make themselves at home" in and relocate the whole box of mice so that they have their own shelter and are nor alone. But nothing is ideal.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cynthia, what is a bumble bee box?
Yes, nothing is ideal, i understand that, it is hard trying to protect your birds but not harming anything else in the meantime.
That is a good idea though, moving the whole box like that.


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

If you ladies are having mice problems I can let you borrow simba he loves mice....There is usually nothing left when he's done!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi max. That's really a pretty cat. Love his spots. Often, it's the females that make good hunters.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You either misunderstood what we wrote Max or didn't take the time to read it properly... Moxxie and I are not killers. We look for humane ways of dealing with any problems. So do a lot of our other members. 

Cynthia


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> You either misunderstood what we wrote Max or didn't take the time to read it properly... Moxxie and I are not killers. We look for humane ways of dealing with any problems. So do a lot of our other members.
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia, My brother and I own an auto repair shop in Massachusetts, and we do a lot of work for the local fire department. We hear a lot of story's on how mice/rodents cause thousands of dollars worth of damage to peoples' homes when they bite the electrical wires and they even cause house fires....I work very hard to keep a roof over my family's head, and I would not want to lose my home to a house fire because of mice chewing through my electrical wires to make nests...I have read many posts by members on this forum about mice bringing diseases to their lofts. Also, I do not like mice running through my cabinets looking for food and leaving mice dropping behind...I am not sure how the price of food is in the UK but here in the US it's high and I do not want to feed them.......I applaud you for the work you do with PMV birds...But mice! sorry, not my thing. But not to worry, Simba usually kills them in a humane way......Max


PS....As far as me being an animal lover, I am a hardcore animal lover!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Max,
Simba is absolutely beautiful. 
What type of cat is he/she?

Cindy


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Hi max. That's really a pretty cat. Love his spots. Often, it's the females that make good hunters.


Hi Jay, As usual, you are correct! But Simba is exceptional, he loves to hunt mice.....My female Bengal is lazy and could not care less. This is a picture of jasper. He is showing promise.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Max, the rodents notorious for chewing wires are rats.


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Hi Max,
> Simba is absolutely beautiful.
> What type of cat is he/she?
> 
> Cindy


Hello Cindy,

Simba is an F3 Bengal, which is a 3rd Generation Asian Leopard Cat. He is bred from an Asian Leopard Cat and a Domestic Cat. I got him from a Breeder in New Hampshire. My cats are excellent with my kids....They also love to play with water.....Max


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

Charis said:


> Max, the rodents notorious for chewing wires are rats.



Hi Charis,


So your telling me that mice don't chew things to make their nest? I fix cars for a living and do you know how many cars get towed in because of a no start....Do you know why they don't start? because I find little mice nest in the air filter box full of chewed wires......Charis I think your a sweetheart I really don't want to argue with you......Max


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Max,



Indeed...


A few years ago, I did some work on a 1930 Studebaker, which had been sitting in indoor storage since around 1946.


Anyway, after various preliminaries...fired-it-up, and out the Tail Pipe shot five Rat Nests and several Rat 'mummies'...laying in-a-row on the ground, neat as could be.


Anyway...Mice chew on endless things in investigating whether to eat more of it...in addition to chewing on things for Nest-Materials.


And indeed they do endless horrid damage to everything they can get to.



Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Max1170 said:


> Hi Charis,
> 
> 
> So your telling me that mice don't chew things to make their nest? I fix cars for a living and do you know how many cars get towed in because of a no start....Do you know why they don't start? because I find little mice nest in the air filter box full of chewed wires......Charis I think your a sweetheart I really don't want to argue with you......Max


They love cloth, paper and insulation the most. In houses, they are more likely to get into those things. Rats are more likely to chew through wires causing a fire.
I don't think it would be good if either culprit decided to take up residence in a car.
Max...we can disagree without arguing. Some day I'll tell you about the 10,000 sq ft estate I had listed that also had house mice.


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

watery poops,.prior to mating there is a watering discharge that i call purging-a rather unsavory event,however if a bird disease is present it would require experience and a good aviarian vet,.i have been very fortunate where my birds are concerned-medically-knock on wood,...did a cat attack cause the death of the bird with the broken leg,.my moma kitty was headed to the gallows,but she stopped staulking the ferals-to my suprise,.sincerely james waller


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Max,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,


Wow, 1930 Studebaker......Now that was a car!!! I love old cars


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## Max1170 (Jun 13, 2007)

Charis said:


> Max...we can disagree without arguing. Some day I'll tell you about the 10,000 sq ft estate I had listed that also had house mice.





Lol, I am glad we're still friends


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

This is a bumble bee nest http://bumblebeeconservationtrust.co.uk/nest_boxes.htm.

The entry hole is just the right size for a mouse and the whole family will shelter in there so they can be moved at the same time. It is a humane way of mouse control and more effective than having them killed.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Raina,
> 
> This is a bumble bee nest http://bumblebeeconservationtrust.co.uk/nest_boxes.htm.
> 
> ...


Cynthia...that is a terrific idea.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Charis...it is weather proof too! 

Cynthia


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Actually, they're kinda cute. And easily made.


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