# YB's and overcrowding



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

I have a good idea on what my loft will accommodate to avoid overcrowding and keep everyone healthy. I also know that there is a good chance I will lose a few birds through the training process. 

Do any of you take your loft to the point of overcrowding for a month or two expecting to lose a few birds and be "just right" after a few training tosses? 

Or maybe a better question is... How many birds do you usually lose during the training process? 

I don't have a lot of space but I also don't want to be shorthanded come young bird season.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

depend ... some people only lose 2 or 3 every year ..and other can lose half or more of their whole flock ...it all depend on the bird,weather and hawks ...ect....


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I'm in the same boat. Started out with 15 early ones of which I've lost 4 for various reasons. The other group of 16 younger ones, I've lost 1. Really hoped to go into the racing season with at least 25, but my space is limited. Had the same thought, maybe I should have started with more to allow for loss.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Personally, in my experience, it seems like the overcrowding will cause you to lose the birds. Generally at the end of the year you will be left with the number of birds the loft can comfortably hold, of course barring a huge disaster smash race or something like that. I believe breeding more youngbirds simply to lose is not a good idea.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I have space, but have decided to go the opposite direction; fewer birds. 

Basically I think we lost a few of our birds last year to over crowding. The birds seemed to know that there wasn't enough space and went looking elsewhere. Once they were gone the loft settled way down. Add to that the upkeep needed to prevent issues around overcrowding - cleaning, medication (preventative), verifying adequate feed/avoiding overfeeding of individual birds - and I think that spending more time in training will serve me better. 

That said, fewer for me is 40 birds. That is about 60% capacity for us. Not sure if I would change my mind if I was limited to 25 ...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

better more room than less.. you have to ask what happens if you do not lose any?..


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

If your y/B's are overcrowed--have to fight for perches & feed.
And your are looking at Health problems.
They will look for better living conditions--somewhere -- maybe go "feral".
Also--remember you do NOT "have" to ship the limit ever race.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

Good points all of you. I guess to be more specific... I've got 30 perches and a limit to send 25 to the races. 30 perches but not enough floor space in that half of the loft for 30 birds. 

Some of my birds were hatched in January and allowed to free fly at the previous owners loft. I am afraid they will head straight back once I let them fly at my place. I am counting on losing some back to his place but hoping they will all stay.

Current plan is to keep them in my loft for a good month before attempting to loft fly (two weeks already passed).

Health of the team is key.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Jaysen said:


> I have space, but have decided to go the opposite direction; fewer birds.
> 
> Basically I think we lost a few of our birds last year to over crowding. The birds seemed to know that there wasn't enough space and went looking elsewhere. Once they were gone the loft settled way down. Add to that the upkeep needed to prevent issues around overcrowding - cleaning, medication (preventative), verifying adequate feed/avoiding overfeeding of individual birds - and I think that spending more time in training will serve me better.
> 
> That said, fewer for me is 40 birds. That is about 60% capacity for us. Not sure if I would change my mind if I was limited to 25 ...


This really makes a lot of sense. 

12Volt, 30 perches doesn't seem like enough for 30 birds- I read that you need 1 1/2 perches per bird, and 2 sqft of floor space, plus some amount of cubic feet , but I don't remember that part cuz I knew I would be ok. 
So, it sounds like you have hit overcrowding my friend.  . Everything I have read or been told indicates to me that the ones that flew at that other loft will totally head back there.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yep--12 volt man is going to be LUCKY if he ends up with 15 birds.
BUT let him learn the HARD way.
He asked questions and got correct answers.
Nay Nay is correct---1 & 1/2 perch and 2 square foot per bird.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

ahh... I've read a lot of things on this forum and I guess I missed that I need more perches than birds. I figured 1 perch per bird was sufficient.

Not trying to learn the hard way, that's why I am asking. 

What I have now is an excuse to build an addition onto my loft


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

On the 1.5/bird perch ratio: Can you lower that with increased numbers of birds?

Meaning with 8 birds in a 4x4 loft, 12 perches seems to make sense, but with 100 birds in a 10x20 lot, 150 perches seems like a lot of wasted wall space. 

Not trying to argue the point, just wondering if we can use fewer perches as the size of the loft increases.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Jaysen---Are you saying you have ONE section 10 X 20 and 100 birds in it?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

That is an example. The end plan is 8x24 which would be capable of 96. My plan was for 5 perch units @ 25 perches each for a total of 125 perches.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Jaysen--with all these Idea's and Examples Please keep us posted on how things work out.
Cleaning a 8 X 24 loft -feeding and watering Etc.--Don't know how much time that will take.
100 birds at 1 oz per bird per day---your looking at" What " $100 per month for feed?
Plus medication and etc?
Maybe I need to get a Job in upstate NY


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Jaysen said:


> That is an example. The end plan is 8x24 which would be capable of 96. My plan was for 5 perch units @ 25 perches each for a total of 125 perches.


To follow up on what sky was saying...not so much the cost but for time efficiency...I would recommend splitting that loft into 4 sections 6X6 each with a 2 foot walkway. Simply because I have had experience like this when I first started...I built a 12X24 loft and having to catch birds in a big open space like that was simply a night mare. Smaller compartments makes it easier on you and calms the birds much more. Also a walkway is a must in my opinion, allows you to have basically 2 doors to get to birds so if they get out of the section they won't get out of the loft, kind of a safety measure. Also gives you room to play with widowhood and such if you so choose in the future. Just throwing out some ideas.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

12 Volt Man said:


> ahh... I've read a lot of things on this forum and I guess I missed that I need more perches than birds. I figured 1 perch per bird was sufficient.
> 
> Not trying to learn the hard way, that's why I am asking.
> 
> What I have now is an excuse to build an addition onto my loft


Yes- I don't think anyone wants to learn the hard way, and you are clearly trying to do what is best for your birds, and figure all this stuff out. There is a lot to learn it turns out-who knew? We can only do our best, and fix what isn't working when we realize it isn't working. 

ok, break time is over, I have a loft to finish....


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

The 8x24 is the end state of the castle YB section. It uses raised floors with tarps for cleaning, slanted box perches with collection into tarp, external half tube feeders stacked into multiple levels, pressure/gravity feed waterers, and is built inside another structure for a 3 door entrance into any bird area. The 8x24 will be divided into "sub sections" which will likely be at 4' intervals to allow for more control (perch sections are 4' wide). Right now we are at 8x8 and are still working all the kinks out of the ideas. 

We have enough room to make a matching OB side. Currently we are setting it up to be natural with widowhood as an option (using commercial widowhood fronts). The OB section is actually the back of the YB section (look at the castle in the photo albums). It uses much of the same things (floor, feeders, waterers, structure) but has nest boxes. It is also built in 4' sections and will be subdivided for control. 

Both of these share a common storage and office area. That's where the computer, meds, grain, etc are kept handy. 

Sky, I'm a computer nerd. I have a great life. I have a wife who I adore. Kids who think I am nuts but are ok with it. We all do the pigeon thing together. As to the $$, getting a job up here isn't a sure thing. I have a very good one and live under my means (100+ year old house in a semi rural area, drive a small car, and don't pay for cable, designer clothes, or fancy meals). This means that I can splurge on a hobby now and then. 

In timing feeding and cleaning for the 60 birds in all lofts ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected]+6, [email protected]+6) I was all of 27 minutes. I didn't rush. I held the kids in nests. (edited to add that this was not a full clean, just a daily spot clean; full cleans are done on thursdays). 

We are having a ball and intend to grow slowly but I like to plan and know what my options are. 

Anyway, back to the topic, if one does build larger do you keep the 1.5/bird ratio?


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## Goingatitagain (Feb 5, 2011)

Jaysen,,, We have 2 YB sections, each 6x10 with 50 perches in each.

Team 1 = 24 birds

Team 2 = 32 birds.

Team 1 section , there is plenty room.
Team 2 section, I feel like I am a tad tight but still ok. I am waiting for a couple on team 2 to catch up with 1 so I can more them over. 

I believe and always have that overcrowing is the #1 problem in any loft, as far as flyaways, disease and just unhappy birds who can't rest properly.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You might lose 10-20% of your flying birds during racing season/toss. So I believe that was what you are trying to solve if I understand it right.

Your loft capacity is another story.


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