# Cipro/Baytril overdose, emergency



## peacefulpigeon (Jul 1, 2016)

Hi a friend of mine rescued a pigeon that was possibly mauled by a cat. 

So all she had was cipro, which is Baytril i assume.

She accidentally gave the wrong dose due to a confusion, it turned out the dose should be 3.5 mg per dose which is supposed to be 0.1 ml but the syringe caused confusion and the bird now had dosed with 1 ml instead, which is around 30 mg.

Is there a quick way to reverse the dose, will the bird be fine and ride it out??


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dont know. Hopefully somebody more expert will answer soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Nothing much you can do now but wait.
Should be no confusion before you give a drug to a bird, or any other animal. Should be sure first. You can't take it back once you give it.


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## peacefulpigeon (Jul 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Nothing much you can do now but wait.
> Should be no confusion before you give a drug to a bird, or any other animal. Should be sure first. You can't take it back once you give it.


It won't kill the bird or anything right? Yeah she is going to get 0.5 ml syringes for the next dose. Hopefully the bird won't die  So sad


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

You could have given some active charcoal powder, made into a paste with some instant breakfast oats. I'd give a quarter tablet and it should absorb the drug - charcoal is often used in human overdose and I've used it in my hand reared chicks that have had air in their crop with no bad effect. Use the mix in a syringe and slowly squirt a small amount at the back of the throat behind the tongue. 
I hope the bird is okay.


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## peacefulpigeon (Jul 1, 2016)

Hi, is it possible to make charcoal powder with blank white papers? We dont have charcoal powder and it is already late right now to go buy it. Is there a quick way to make it?

It has been 4 hours now and the bird is doing fine so far. I am still worried.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Please let us know how he is doing.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I really don't know about that but you could burn some toast and scrape off the black - I seem to do that whenever I make toast, lol. At least you'd know burnt toast won't harm him although the medicine is probably in his system by now so I don't know how effective it will be. 
I was just looking at my notes from a hand reared chick I had that was on Baytril prescribed by my vet and my five day old chick was on 0.09 ml twice a day so if your bird is an adult I think the one off high dose shouldn't do any harm, if it was repeatedly given is when you are likely to have problems. If the dose is twice daily just omit the other dose for the day. You can still offer some burnt toast and if he'll peck at it himself all the better. 
Please let's know how he gets on and try not to worry too much. 

Just to add, at five days old my chick weighed 28 grams so that gives you a rough idea of weight to medication ratio with your bird.


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## peacefulpigeon (Jul 1, 2016)

FredaH said:


> I really don't know about that but you could burn some toast and scrape off the black - I seem to do that whenever I make toast, lol. At least you'd know burnt toast won't harm him although the medicine is probably in his system by now so I don't know how effective it will be.
> I was just looking at my notes from a hand reared chick I had that was on Baytril prescribed by my vet and my five day old chick was on 0.09 ml twice a day so if your bird is an adult I think the one off high dose shouldn't do any harm, if it was repeatedly given is when you are likely to have problems. If the dose is twice daily just omit the other dose for the day. You can still offer some burnt toast and if he'll peck at it himself all the better.
> Please let's know how he gets on and try not to worry too much.
> 
> Just to add, at five days old my chick weighed 28 grams so that gives you a rough idea of weight to medication ratio with your bird.


Thank you we are kind of relieved to hear that. The bird is female and adult. Half the flight feathers and the entire tail feathers were ripped apart when we got her. She had a limp too 2 days ago. But now the limp is almost gone, she still limps but she is putting weight on both her feet now and running around to get away if we set her down. She is very relaxed now after seeing the other host pigeons we have, that will fly to us. She is too big for a female, and quite heavy. Without the tail feathers she kind of looks like a round ball lol Very cute bird. She already trusted us enough to eat peanuts from hand, although getting very spooked by the hand if we try to pet her. But has no problem eating on her own and only eats peanuts, so we stopped giving her peanuts, that can't be good in large numbers.

We have conditioner mix at home which has peas and all kinds of goodies but she won't eat them that much. Since we both are a low carb diet we didn't buy bread but that sounds like a great idea. I will go buy bread and a toaster right now.

Other than that, the bird is quiet and prefer to perch on the chair than being inside the box. Since she cant fly, we let her remain outside. Hopefully she will ride it out. She must be at least 400 grams with a very wide "Arnold" chest lol Too cute.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The only thing I can think of is giving her calcium. It will bind to the drug and less will be absorbed. May be too late now though. She will probably be okay.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

She sounds lovely pp and at her size I'm sure she'll be okay. 
It's an easy mistake to make - when I first dosed my chick I was thinking 0.9ml instead of 0.09ml, it was only that she was so tiny that I thought this seems a lot for such a little one and then I realised why, lol. 
They are very cheeky with their likes and dislikes of food and as you know they'll pick out only their favourites with all the rest wasted. It's taken me a year to realise how I was overfeeding mine and the waste was incredible - the wild woodies and doves didn't mind, ha ha - but now I give a measured dose in the morning and again when I put them to bed and as I'm clearing up at bed time they're all happily tucking in. 
I buy a sack of economy mix for the wild ones now and keep the breeders mix for mine, the wild guys are so cute and line up along the fence waiting for me and if I'm late two brave collard doves sit on the step outside my door reminding me to get a move on. Bless 'em.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Most common side effect of cipro/baytril is vomiting. If there's no vomiting and he/she is still eating and drinking, should be fine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Would be good to give Nystatin or similar to prevent yeast infection while on the med.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

peacefulpigeon said:


> Hi a friend of mine rescued a pigeon that was possibly mauled by a cat.
> 
> So all she had was cipro, which is Baytril i assume.
> 
> ...


If it was me, I'd give charcoal as soon as possible. I'm not sure about the burnt toast, but its definitely worth trying since birds have super fast metabolisms and cipro has a shorter life in the system than baytril. I'd go to a drug store first thing in the morning and buy activated charcoal or tablets. 

Birds will survive overdoses, even catastrophic ones, but their kidney's will be left damaged. If you can avoid this please try. 

I'd continue treatment using Nystatin for yeast, and considering switching to trimethoprim-sulfa. It also treats toxiplasmosis in case of a cat mauling.

The pulled out feathers and lost tail can also be caused by a bird attack, one of my favourite pigeon hens was found in the same condition - she had a broken wing too, she was attacked by crows.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, birds will pull out tail feathers too, but it's just that no one knows what it was, so have to take caution.
The drug is in the birds system and too late to do anything in like an hour, I believe it is.
Some things you would need to do the charcoal within a half hour. Probably good to keep it on hand, as by the time you can get out and get it, the time has passed.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Yes, birds will pull out tail feathers too, but it's just that no one knows what it was, so have to take caution.
> The drug is in the birds system and too late to do anything in like an hour, I believe it is.
> Some things you would need to do the charcoal within a half hour. Probably good to keep it on hand, as by the time you can get out and get it, the time has passed.


I'd use charcoal tablets ASAP anyway, the drug can linger in the system for 24 hours, and the charcoal will bind with all toxins, taking stress off the kidneys. These are the organs most likely to be damaged by cipro overdose. Can't cause any harm anyway, and does act against yeast too.

Suggesting to give Calcium was a good idea. I think its known to inhibit the effects of tetracyclines/doxy only, but could help with Baytril too (I don't think its proven, but even Bayer say its possible)


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Activated charcoal is so good for any accidental overdoses or suspected poisoning while you make your way to a vet or A&E and having three dogs it's also great for gassy tums - helps us all breathe easier! 

How's the little one today pp?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I'd use charcoal tablets ASAP anyway, the drug can linger in the system for 24 hours, and the charcoal will bind with all toxins, taking stress off the kidneys. These are the organs most likely to be damaged by cipro overdose. Can't cause any harm anyway, and does act against yeast too.
> 
> Suggesting to give Calcium was a good idea. I think its known to inhibit the effects of tetracyclines/doxy only, but could help with Baytril too (I don't think its proven, but even Bayer say its possible)


The drug will be in the system for a while, but you need to give the charcoal before it gets into the system, while still in the stomach. It won't remove it from the system.

Calcium has been proven to bind to Baytril. They used to believe it was only the cyclines, but found that not to be true.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not trying to give you a hard time, just want to show these links for future people that read these threads, that should know about the effects of calcium on Baytril, as many don't know. 


Enrofloxacin Interactions and Possible Side Effects

Enrofloxacin may interact with one or more medications. Common culprits include iron supplements, antacids and stomach protectants. When given to animals, avoid giving with dairy products (such as cheese, cream cheese, or yogurt) because the calcium can bind to the drug, limiting its effectiveness.
http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/enrofloxacin-for-cats-and-dogs/

Medications or supplements containing iron, zinc, calcium, magnesium or aluminum will bind enrofloxacin and prevent absorption into the body. Such medications should be separated from enrofloxacin by at least 2 hours.
http://www.marvistavet.com/enrofloxacin.pml

Dairy should not be given within 2 hours of both baytril and doxy for the same reason, the calcium binding.

My dad is currently on Cipro (baytril). He took it with some orange juice and had a glass of milk. THEN he went to read the instructions, and was surprised that they said NOT to take with any juice containing calcium or milk products. I laughed and said, I knew that!! It binds with the calcium!! He said, Yes, that's exactly what the information said! :cheeky: :wink5: 
http://www.goosemoose.com/rfc/index.php?topic=4011843.10;wap2


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I understand Jay, But just in case of confusion, I wouldn't want to be suggesting anyone use calcium instead of activated charcoal to treat poisoning or overdoses. 

The info about calcium binding to Baytril is very sketchy, there's nothing that quantifies the degree to which it binds, or when it loses that ability (though anecdotely people have said within 2 hours) 

In the avian medicine forumulary : (http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/18.pdf )you can see that calcium grit reduces the effectiveness of tetracyclines by around 1/2. So in a best case scenario, if calcium was taken at the same time as an overdose of tetracyclines (not Baytril), it could reduce its effect by only half. Activated Charcoal would remove all of the toxins in the same scenario, that's why its the first choice in both humans and animals.

Activated Charcoal is a recognized and proven toxin remover in both humans and birds, and can also work systemically (that how it affects yeasts and candida) or via external application. 

The Info I have about Baytril and Calcium is from when Cynthia (Feefo) wrote to Bayer, the manufacturer of Bayril. 

This is what the manufacturer said:

``There is no need to withhold calcium grit while using Baytril. The reason there are conflicting reports around is that it may be true that calcium supplements added to water may decrease the absorption of Baytril. This applies to in water calcium supplementation and not to grit.

There is no data to suggest that the administration of calcium gloconate two
hours before Baytril will enhance the antibacterial action of the antibiotic.
However as per the information detailed above if it is administered in the water with Baytril it could reduce absorption.

Yours sincerely

Bayer Animal Health
Bayer House
Strawberry Hill
Newbury
Berkshire
RG14 1JA''

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/baytril-enrofloxacin-and-calcium-a-good-combination-16934.html


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Bella, I don't think we have an argument here. I agree with you about the charcoal. 
I'm not saying that charcoal isn't better. Of course it is. Just that not everyone has that on hand. People who keep birds usually do have a calcium supplement of some sort.
There have been other tests done, and calcium is known to bind to Baytril or Cipro. Even people taking Cipro are told not to eat or drink calcium containing foods for a couple of hours at least, which gives the Cipro time to get into the system. Once in the system, it won't be affected. It is only while it is in the crop or stomach that it will bind to the calcium. And whatever you do, it needs to be done like within an hour or so, or won't be effective.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

No worries Jay,

Like I said, I'm concerned about recommending Calcium to treat overdoses or poisoning instead of proven treatments such as Activated Charcoal. 

I would suspect one of the main reasons Calcium is not used to treat overdoses is that Calcium at high doses causes Kidney Damage and failure , and that is what we would be trying to avoid in the case of an Overdose. We also have the problem with unknown/limited effectiveness.

If you have any links to scientific studies where calcium is used to treat overdoses in humans or animals, I'd be willing to read them, otherwise I'd be cautious about recommending something that further damages Kidney's instead of proven treatments like Activated Charcoal for overdoses.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

peacefulpigeon said:


> Hi, is it possible to make charcoal powder with blank white papers? We dont have charcoal powder and it is already late right now to go buy it. Is there a quick way to make it?
> 
> It has been 4 hours now and the bird is doing fine so far. I am still worried.


Any news? If you can, would you let us know how her droppings look and if there has been any vomiting?

X Thanks a lot!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> No worries Jay,
> 
> Like I said, I'm concerned about recommending Calcium to treat overdoses or poisoning instead of proven treatments such as Activated Charcoal.
> 
> ...


..............................................................................


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I know calcium binds to many drugs and can't give our dog his thyroid medication with food because just a trace of calcium can alter the dose, Dr Dodds suggests giving the tablets with peanut butter if you can't get the meds down 'by hand' but in all the years we've treated him no vet has ever told us this and they really should. I wonder how many people put the tablets in their food and get bad blood results constantly.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Freda, you are right. I don't know why, but many vets neglect to give lots of information that would be helpful, and even necessary to pet owners.
You are better to google the drug yourself and find out what you need to know about it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay, I understand your reasoning, thank you. I definitely wouldn't use calcium myself to treat an overdose, as calcium's kidney-toxicity could push damaged kidney's over the edge and cause renal failure. You'd have no idea of how damaged the kidney's are already from the overdose, or what dose of calcium will cause the kidney's to fail at that point. 

I'd purchase activated charcoal ASAP and treat with that, since it can work systemically while the drug is in the body for the next 24 hours. 

If that was impossible, there is quite a lot of info about how make appropriate activated charcoal on the net, and I'd consider alternatives, such as inducing regurgitation.

Jay, if you have any scientific facts about calcium being used to treat overdoses successfully, I think it would be great of you could post them. Otherwise your idea to use calcium to treat overdose is experimental at best, reckless or deliberately undermining of other members advice at worst.

And where are all the high quality experienced members of this forum now anyway? Most I knew well of complained of being undermined at every turn an said they got bored or traumatized by that treatment, considering the birds that suffered most. Such a pity, this used to be a quality forum. Now its just you.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

So please, how is the bird doing?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Jay, I understand your reasoning, thank you. I definitely wouldn't use calcium myself to treat an overdose, as calcium's kidney-toxicity could push damaged kidney's over the edge and cause renal failure. You'd have no idea of how damaged the kidney's are already from the overdose, or what dose of calcium will cause the kidney's to fail at that point.
> 
> Not even sure what the argument is here. Calcium is safe and is recommended giving to them especially hens. We are not talking a lot of calcium.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry if you were upset with my recommending a bit of calcium to help, when there was nothing else, but I'm not going to go back and forth with this. You are trying to make it sound like I am recommending it as a treatment for overdoses, which I am not. I'm sure everyone else understood why I recommended trying it. Stop trying to change the meaning of what I suggested. Now let's stop derailing this thread and get back to helping the poster.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Calcium Toxicity: When dietary levels of calcium are in excess, absorption is minimal and the excess is excreted in the feces. *Prolonged* dietary excesses can lead to hypercalcemia, rickets, gout and nephrosis (kidney problems).
Pigeons normally need calcium supplements for growth and egg production. Pigeons require higher doses of calcium than other bird species. If their being treated with medications, you remove the calcium while treating. In the case of a drug overdose, if charcoal isn't readily available, it would help to give them their *regular* calcium whereas it will bind with the medication making it less absorbed by the body, until they can get charcoal. That's not treating an overdose with calcium, that's slowing it down until one can get the proper treatment.....charcoal.
Any news on the bird? Hows it doing?


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Better than nothing if you don't have charcoal to hand eh Msfreebird? Which is how I'd interpreted Jays post. 
I wish the OP would come back and tell us how it all panned out though.


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