# Baby's crop not emptying correctly?



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

The littlest baby I'm hand feeding (about two weeks old) has been digesting his Kaytee normally until a few days ago. Then I noticed that at the bottom of his crop there are small spots (nickel-sized) that are firm. I have him warm water and gently massaged the spots so they would absorb the water, and I have been doing this several times a day and also feeding him a weak Kaytee mix. I add yogurt to the mix, too. 

The spots disappear after I give him the warm water and massage them, and then his crop looks and feels normal. But when it goes down again the spots return. What can I do to fix this for him? I would also like to know the cause as it happened suddenly and I haven't had this problem with any of the other babies before. He did start pecking at seeds a few days ago, and I haven't let him have any access to them since it started. Could the seeds have caused a back-up of sorts? He seems fine, energetic and peeping constantly as usual, and has a healthy appetite. I am always careful not to feed too much and in fact feed the same amount each feeding, measured out. The water is always lukewarm and never too hot. Any help or advice much appreciated.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maryjane, 



When making the formula, add enough Water to cover it with 1/2 an inch of clear water on top, and do not stirr, just let it sit for a few hours, coverd in gthe fridge...even freeze it, then thaw when you want to use it.


Make sure to warm for serving, in a Pan of hot water, with the formula in a little Cup or Bowl.


Probably at this point, you should use only the ACV-Water for the formjula mixing, and for between meal drinking times, since likely he has gotten 'slugs' of thickened formula in his Crop which are not passing, and which will cause or already are causing Yeasts or Candida problames to occur, so, the PH of the ACV-Water ( four Tablespoons of raw ACV to a Gallon of Water) will ammend this...


And, also, gently, massage these places to see if you can get them loosened up and managing to pass.


These can happen also without anything being palpable.



Adding AMPLE Water to the 'dry powder' KT or other, and then letting it sit for a few hours, covered, in the refrigerator, allows it to absorb as much Water as it will, and THEN one stirrs it, no stirring before this! and, if need be, adds enough more Water for it to be like melted Ice Cream on a hot day.


AND, importantly, one offers the Babys "tepid" Water, ( or now, with yours, tepid ACV-Water) in between Meals, for them to drink.


This should do it...


That, and making sure the Babys ARE "warm" to the tune of warmer than your Wrist underside, through and through, all the time...if they are panting, they are too warm, but otherwise, almost no one really does make sure that the Babys they are raising are really "warm", and an even slightly chilled Baby will have digestive problems which can lead to troubles.

Those are my thoughs...

I do not think the small Seeds are doing this...



Anyway, please do not get mad like every one else is at me today if I try and cover over-views...because they resent me sounding like I do not realie they already know everything, yet are in trouble with not knowing...


Lol...

But, warm the already thoroughly hydrated formula, in-a-cup, in-a-pan of Hot Water, stirring THEN...and adding as much more Water ( or ACV-Water) as it needs to be the right consistancy.


Maybe you know all of this, I do not know if you do or not.


But that is some of what there is to know, if one wants things to go well.


Small whole Seeds can be added, even added abundantly, to the formula, so long as you have a way of feeding which allow it, and most do not.


Babys will gladly drink even from a Tea Cup, if guided to it, for keeping them well hydrated, and for offering Water between meals.



Best wishes...!


Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you're getting a bunch out the back end on a regular basis, then it can't be all bad. I usually don't worry about them unless they're giving me some real reason to worry. You haven't seen any other symptoms of anything, have you?

Pidgey


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thanks Phil, I had no idea I should make the formula first and let it refrigerate. I heard somewhere never to use the formula more than fifteen minutes after it was mixed. Sheesh. I will start that tonight for him then. I am also feeding Toto, who is somewhat developmentally disabled (though he is six weeks he doesn't eat on his own yet), should I feed him just the regular dry mix with water? His crop is normal. I usually mix the Kaytee with 1 part warm water and 1 part garlic/water mix that all of the birds drink. So I should use the AVC water instead of the garlic water, I assume. Thanks a lot, you're a lifesaver. 

No, Pidgey, I haven't seen any other signs. He is pooping up a storm and they look normal, the same as always. They are just very small spots on each side of the crop at the bottom, and like I said, when I massage them after giving him warm water, they disappear until the crop goes down. I will try the AVC, that'll probably fix him up. You're a lifesaver too.

And they are on a heating pad 24 hours a day, with a bit of room to scoot off it if they get too warm. They spend most of their time on it.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, for my part and the countless ones I've raised, I put just enough of the powder for one feeding in a little cup, turn the hot tap water on, pour in a little, stir, a little more, stir for about a full minute (it thickens up after a bit) then add the last bit of water until I get it to the slurry that I want. I put it down the bird with the tube feeder in less than ten seconds and it's over. Haven't had any problems. I'm pretty sure Maggie does exactly the same thing.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

maryjane said:


> Thanks Phil, I had no idea I should make the formula first and let it refrigerate. I heard somewhere never to use the formula more than fifteen minutes after it was mixed. Sheesh.



Hi mj, 



The admonishion for not letting it sit, is intended for not letting it sit at room temperatures, where, it will spoil rather soon especially in warm weather, and begin fermenting.

These powdered formulas contain things which will start fermenting it, as well as fermenting or spoiling from the normal ambient airborne Yeasts getting into it.



If we JUST add ample Water, with no stirring, and then cover it, and set it in the refrigerator for a few hours, it will not spoil quickly, and it WILL get to thoroughly hydrate.


Stirr when warming it, and add whatever additional water seems needed at that time.


Make new the night before, so it can hydrate over night, and discard whatever remains each night after the last feeding.


When people hastily mix and feed, the formula is not thoroughly hydrated, and, thickens in the Crop.





> I will start that tonight for him then. I am also feeding Toto, who is somewhat developmentally disabled (though he is six weeks he doesn't eat on his own yet), should I feed him just the regular dry mix with water? His crop is normal. I usually mix the Kaytee with 1 part warm water and 1 part garlic/water mix that all of the birds drink. So I should use the AVC water instead of the garlic water, I assume. Thanks a lot, you're a lifesaver.



If it were me, I would set him into the 'Lap Towell Cave' deal, and guide him to be eating small whole Seeds from a Shot Glass...

If you do not know what I mean, I would be glad to explain in more detail.


If he will 'nuzzle', keep your fingers on the sides of his Beak, and guide his Beak into the Seeds, and he will 'gobble' them, and very soon, be pecking them by this method.



> No, Pidgey, I haven't seen any other signs. He is pooping up a storm and they look normal, the same as always. They are just very small spots on each side of the crop at the bottom, and like I said, when I massage them after giving him warm water, they disappear until the crop goes down. I will try the AVC, that'll probably fix him up. You're a lifesaver too.
> 
> And they are on a heating pad 24 hours a day, with a bit of room to scoot off it if they get too warm. They spend most of their time on it.



The ACV-Water will effect the PH so that any Yeast or Candida infections, which WILL attend a 'slug' of formula remaining over long in their Crop...so that the infection will receed and the organisms will die off.


If these are abcesses, then that is a different matter of course.


Probably these are recalcitrant 'formula' slugs, and will slowly dissolve over a few days, especially with massages and enough hydration.



Good luck!


I have to get to work now..!



Love!


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mj, 



How are you feeding these Babys the formula?



Phil
l v


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I've seen what MJ described here, and if not addressed, the baby will become totally "clogged" as in the crop stops functioning completely.

The warm water and massages do help, but I've found that giving baking soda water or ACV water is needed in order to turn the situation around. My experience has been that once the crop has slowed enough that "sludge" is accumulating in the lower portion of the lobes, that the only solution is to tube either baking soda water or ACV water, wait for that to pass through, and do it another time or two until the crop is completely empty and there is no residue in the lobes. This may take 24 hours or more and several doses of the treated water before things are working correctly again.

Like Pidgey, I make only enough formula for one feeding and do not save or store it. If you mix it with hot enough water and let it sit for a few minutes and then dilute it to the thickness needed, that's always worked for me.

I've never tried Phil's method but see no reason why that isn't a good way to go as long as the mixture is refrigerated and not allowed to start growing unwanted things.

Good luck, MJ, and good that you spotted this problem!

Terry


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My impression has always been that if their crops slow down, it's for a reason like canker or something like that. When I see it, I just figure it out, treat 'em and get on down the road. If it's a question of not getting enough water in the formula, then I guess a person needs to read the instructions real well. Every now and then, I mix it a tad thinner for whatever reasons I do it for. In Second Chance's case, gravity was the only thing pulling food through that bird's system and so I mixed it thin just to help her out and kept it up for weeks. Second Chance lives out in the loft now under her own recognizance.

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pidgey said:


> My impression has always been that if their crops slow down, it's for a reason like canker or something like that. When I see it, I just figure it out, treat 'em and get on down the road.
> Pidgey


Yes .. usually yeast and needs treating with Nystatin or one of the equivalent products from a pigeon supply. Was just thinking that in the interest of expediency that MJ could try a "home grown" method of getting the crop going again.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, Pidgey,



The ACV-Water has worked well every time I have gotten in Babys who had these or kindred Crop issues from others feeding them 'KT' which was not made to how I have explained it to be made.


The 'Baking Soda' I have heard Terry mention about, but I have never tried it to know the details or precautions or anything else about it.


Of course, these "two" respective things ( ACV-Water...vis-a-vie Baking Soda ) should NOT be mixed or done in close succession...!




That "YOU" can get away with extempore Tap-Water-Mixing of 'KT', is one thing...


Other people WILL not get away with it, even people who have qute a bit of exerience, and they will make 'problems' for the Babys, and they will do so reliably...and the Babys sicken or die because of it, unless - as in this instance - the problem is identified in time, and, ameliorated...and the care giver can learn more about what DOES go wrong, and how to avoid it...and to understand the underlieing features and reasons of why something so 'simple' as 'feeding', is maybe NOT that 'simple' afterall.



Thus my interest to edify.


Best wishes!



Love, 


Phil
l v


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> *When making the formula, add enough Water to cover it with 1/2 an inch of clear water on top, and do not stirr, just let it sit for a few hours, coverd in gthe fridge...even freeze it, then thaw when you want to use it.*
> Phil
> l v





maryjane said:


> Thanks Phil,
> * *I had no idea I should make the formula first and let it refrigerate.*
> ]I heard somewhere never to use the formula more than fifteen minutes after it was mixed.


* If you're referring to KayTee Exact, Maryjane, you shouldn't make it ahead & store it. 

According to the *SPECIAL NOTES FOR PREPARATION* on the back of the KayTee Exact container it states:
* *IMPORTANT - DO NOT REUSE MIXED FORMULA!!*
Discard and mix fresh at each feeding.

The reason for all the caps & color is because I typed it exactly how it is on the container.

Cindy


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> * If you're referring to KayTee Exact, Maryjane, you shouldn't make it ahead & store it.
> 
> According to the *SPECIAL NOTES FOR PREPARATION* on the back of the KayTee Exact container it states:
> * *IMPORTANT - DO NOT REUSE MIXED FORMULA!!*
> ...



Hi Cindy, all...



The 'instructions' presume one is going to leave it sitting on the counter 
at room temperature ( which in fact many people do, too )...not, that the 
'label' is taking into account one's freezing or refrigerating it...nor 
recomending one WOULD, since if one does, one will likely not waste so much 
of it.


It will not degrade or 'spoil' if covered and refrigerated, or, if frozen in 
the freezer compartment for a few hours, or even a few days or weeks for that matter..


This fact IS known and easily demonstrated, even by those in 'Home Economy' 
class in Grammar School - This is 'why' we refrigerate or freeze 
"perishable" foods:

So they do not 'spoil'.


Hence personally, I advocate we be informed 'consumers' and learn our subjects, and not rely on anyone's casual and UN-informative "rote" or indifferent and abstract admonishions which do not take into account, or even want, our ability to think, reason or understand...and especially so, when the admonishions do not bother to inform or edify, in order TO sell more 'product'.



I appreciate your sincerity about 'what the label says'.


And I also wish to advocate we understand MORE than the 'label' says.


The 'label' did not help this Baby Pigeon's problem...instead, it more or less caused it with the credulity and complaisency it invites or relys on.


'K-T' was developed for Commercial Parrot or other Bird breeders wishing to 'hand rear' for fast and easy sell-able 'tameness' anyway, and was never a food for 'Pigeons' or 'Doves' per-se...even if it is accepted to be useable for them.



Best wishes...


Love, 


Phil
l v


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Cindy, all...
> 
> *The 'instructions' presume one is going to leave it sitting on the counter
> at room temperature* ( which in fact many people do, too )...not, that the 'label' is taking into account one's freezing or refrigerating it...nor
> ...


For the sake of an argument, I'll give them a call tomorrow to see if there *are* any exceptions to their instructions, in that it's OK to reuse mixed formula or make a batch to use later as long as it's refrigerated or frozen.

Will post what they have to say.

Cindy


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> For the sake of an argument, I'll give them a call tomorrow to see if there *are* any exceptions to their instructions, in that it's OK to reuse mixed formula or make a batch to use later as long as it's refrigerated or frozen.
> 
> Will post what they have to say.
> 
> Cindy



Well, intellectual honesty would coerce them to at least grudgingly conceed!



Lol...


But, an interesting experiment to do..! To call them and see what they do say.



Look at it this way, in every other thing we know of, and can demonstrate, we refrigerate or freeze 'perishable' Foods, unless they are too fragile TO do so, as Banannas and some few other things are.


And 'mixed' K-T is hardly 'frail' or delicate...nor any more prone to spoiling than is any other Grain based thing to which Water is added.


Soak some common Beans, or any Grains of any sort, and in a day, here anyway, at room temperature, they are roiling with fermentation...

I never soak Beans for anything...if I make a Bean Soup, I just get right to it and no pre-soak.

Grains have to be kept dry to Be kept from spoilage...even when whole.


But refrigerated or frozen 'foods' are able to be kept "longer" anyway, if not in some cases, when frozen, they can be indefinitely, if with some fall off then, of nutritive values in some cases.


Anyway...



Love, 


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy, all...


The question of Refrigeration needs to be qualified by the proviso that the 'formula' is going to be 'covered' or 'sealed' against ambient Yeast Spores which will waft into the Refrigerator when we open or close the door.


The pre-mixed formula should be covered nicely or sealed in a Cup with Handi-W#rap or something, against ANY Air getting to it in the frige.



Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MJ,



Some food and feeding info and images here - 


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/547324376ZDjOCU


This Baby had spent four days in an unheated Garage, in a a Box, in hi 30s temperatures.


He looked dead when brought to me, and was stiff.


I was able to get him revived, and, soon rehydrated, and, onto eating.


All went well...


He was a Winter Baby, and his Nest had been cleared out by some workman, and ythe people who found him did not know what to do with him, so they left him in a box in their garage pending finding someone to give him to.


There was a sibling, who was larger, who was perished and I could not revive.


Anyway, thought you might like to see some of what I do, and how I do it.




Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Thanks Phil, I had no idea I should make the formula first and let it refrigerate. I heard somewhere never to use the formula more than fifteen minutes after it was mixed. Sheesh.


Mary Jayne, *please don't make the formula and refrigerate it*. You must follow the manufacturer's instructions which are to mix with warm water , leave it to stand for a minute and to immediately discard any that you haven't given to the bird.

Phil doesn't use Kaytee Exact so has no experience to go on. . The manufacturers, on the other hand, tend to understand their own product which is why their advice should be followed. THis is not the first time this issue has been discussed on PT.

There is a post in Resources called "Kaytee" that has a link to a video on how to use the product.

As for the food that remains at the bottom of the crop, that could be the result of "crop stretch". If the bird receives too much food then the crop will stretch and there will be a little flap or pocket at the bottom in which food accumulates...in one case two birds were receiving exactly the same amout of food, one got a stretched crop, the other didn't/ The condition is corrected with a crop bra.

I am just dashing out to meet my sister in law. You should be able to find relevant threads on the crop bra, but I will search for a link when I get back.

If I have missed anything relevant in other members' posts then please forgive me. I can't find my glasses! (My eyes are dim I cannot see...)

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry, Cindy, now I have returned home and found my specs I can see that you have already picked theis up. Thank you!

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is the thread about the stretched crop and the crop bra:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8124&referrerid=560

And this is the thread with the link to the Kaytee video:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=23180&referrerid=560

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I've found that giving baking soda water or ACV water is needed in order to turn the situation around.


The baking soda (bicarbonate of soda in the UK) has worked well for me, I just used a pinch of it in warm water.

Cynthia


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Well, intellectual honesty would coerce them to at least grudgingly conceed!
> Lol...
> 
> *But, an interesting experiment to do..! To call them and see what they do say.*
> ...


No experiment involved, Phil. Just thought it would be more logical to give KayTee a call rather than to debate the situation.

With that said:
To all who are interested, I spoke with Kathy, from technical Services, who has been employed at KayTee for 20 years.

This is what she had to say.
* KayTee does *NOT* recommend mixing the formula & placing it in the frig or freezer to be used later. 

* They *DO* recommend that the user follow the 'easy to read' instructions on the label. 

For those who are using the KayTee Exact Hand Feeding Formula, please do follow the instructions on the container. If you have any questions at all you are encouraged to phone KayTee directly at 1-800-829-8331. They will be more than happy to assist.  

Cindy


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What is the point of refrigerating it and using it later? 
Why not use within a few minutes after mixed as per instructions?

Reti


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> *What is the point of refrigerating it and using it later?:* confused:
> Why not use within a few minutes after mixed as per instructions?
> 
> Reti


I didn't go into detail of my conversation with Kathy, but she did ask the same question.

It's just not necessary to complicate a very easy process by mixing, refrigerating or freezing (then having to thaw) the formula when one can mix the amount necessary for a feeding in a few seconds & be done with it. 
Not to mention following the manufacturers instructions & that there is a open invitation to contact KayTee directly for anyone who might have questions.  

Kathy did *stress* though, that the formula should be *mixed immediately *rather than to pour water over the powder & let it sit.

Cindy


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I didn't go into detail of my conversation with Kathy, but she did ask the same question.
> 
> It's just not necessary to complicate a very easy process by mixing, refrigerating or freezing (then having to thaw) the formula when one can mix the amount necessary for a feeding in a few seconds & be done with it.
> Not to mention following the manufacturers instructions & that there is a open invitation to contact KayTee directly for anyone who might have questions.
> ...



Thanks for calling them Cindy, and have it cleared up now.
I don't use Kaytee anymore, I prefer Harrison's formula and it has the same instructions.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> What is the point of refrigerating it and using it later?
> Why not use within a few minutes after mixed as per instructions?
> 
> Reti




Hi Reti, 



All of this was explained in detail earlier in the thread.




Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too...


If one is going to use "K-T" or other powder formula mixes, sich as "Hagens" or "Roudybush" or others...


Once the Baby is say a week old or so, to me, it makes sense to add small whole Seeds to the formula.

Possibly, adding only a slight amount at first, then, adding a little higher proportion each day.

And too, I have found that any healthy Baby I am raising, is entirely able to learn to peck with only a little guidance, at two weeks of age.


So, letting them self feed by pecking, while also continuing with true 'Baby Feeds', makes for a very nice balance all tolled, and, I have never once ever seen anything one could call a 'weaning' problem or issue.

They will self 'wean' at such time as they see fit to leave off the Baby Feeds, having by then, been self-feeding anyway, for four weeks or five.


If one has a feeding method which allows it, adding small whole Seeds to the formula, will be closer to what the Baby would have been fed by his Parents, who, by then, are feeding a slurry of Water and Seeds, where, we can feed a slurry or 'Seeds in Gravy' in effect, by useing the powder formula and adding small whole Seeds to it.


As for me, I prefer the 'Hagens' to the 'K-T', but, either way...having small whole Seeds in the 'slurry' is fine with the Babys, and, allows them also a formula then which will behave well in the Crop, and allows their little Gizzards something to do.


One can also add a little fine Grit, of course.


As for me, I have a lot of different 'formulas' for differing occasions or conditions. And many of them use a fresh ground Seed Meal, which I make from the Pigeon Mix Seeds, other Seds or Grains, dried Berrys, certain Sea Weeds, and other things.


I have to feed very young 'Infant' Babys, older Babys, Juveniles, and sometimes Adults when need be, with formulas suited to their situation.


Formulas which must pass through a 'tube', as for the not otherwise feed-able Adult or frail Adult who is not eating, these have only a very 'fine' fresh ground Seed 'powder', and, "Hagens", "Nutrical" and whatever else.


Otherwise the fresh ground Seed 'meal' I make is moderately coarse...or where most of it is about the size of a 'Millet' Seed or so.



Anyway...


Just to share a little...


Phil
l v


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Maryjane, not to beat a dead horse (so to speak  ) we mix KT pretty much like Pidgey does. I put a heaping spoonful of KT in a small container, add HOT water from the tap, stir like crazy, adding a bit more water until I get the KT to the consistency I want, stick my pinkie in the formula to make sure it is not too hot, draw it up into a syringe and pop it into the baby. I throw away what is left and NEVER refrigerate leftovers. If you stir the KT enough, it will do most of the expanding it is going to do before you feed the baby. Anything left for a period of time like this formula is going to congeal like gravy.

It may be you are not using hot enough water. You can even try using a thermometer to make sure it is the right temp but it needs to be more than tepid when it goes in the baby.

We use Benebac faithfully in formula and it really helps their digestive system. We also use yogurt and like the results. Usually, we'll put yogurt in all meals during the day and a spoonful of Benebac in the last feeding.

I really think a lot of problems that occur with crop stasis is because the formula is not warm enough. Anytime you use yogurt, that will cool the formula down in itself. That is why we use water as hot as it gets from the tap. After a period of time, you may not need a thermometer and will just "know" when the formula is the right temp.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thanks to everyone for their help and so much information.  I am very happy to say that the problem fixed itself, by yesterday morning there is no "sludge" at the bottom of the crop and it feels just as it should. That's interesting that with two babies being fed the same amount, one can get a stretched crop. I am always afraid of having a stretched crop so I feed a small amount several times a day. The little one is doing great and has started pecking at seeds. Thanks again for everyone's help and input.


----------

