# Calling All Rehabbors!!



## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

I need your support on Ruby Roller Talk. they have a thread called ," Culling Devises".  Warning the stories aren't happy. But I am trying to show them there are humane ways to cull.  Adoption or Rehabbors. And if to ill the Humane Society will inject the bird for Free. For injuried or sick birds they can recieve help from rehabbors. I have recommend our site. Maybe some of you will come and visit and offer services to those who care for thier birds.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Debbie,, what is the site name/link?

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Debbie,

I did visit the site, and read that thread. Was surprised to see our old member motherlodelofts there. Anyway, someone posted a link to a thread on the same site that was similar to our resource section on 'culling'. The difference being, there were criteria on how to evaluate a bird for culling purposes and then a chart with the different ways this could be achieved. The folks there seemed as tho they were ambulating w/one foot nailed to the floor in that inevitably they came back to the same place of how to cull (lethally) the bird. I'm not sure that showing up on their site would help to change their minds which seem already made up, just more a question of which method to use, and they'd probably see it as an invasion of the "LIBERALS". I guess I can't imagine caring for a life and then ending it bacause it isn't fitting in with "my divine plan" which ain't so divine. JMO, it would be a 'long shot' if they listened.

http://www.roller-pigeon.com/board/board_topic/859782/102078.htm

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Bunch of sick SOB's if you ask me!!!!!!!!!!!! How sad.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Succinctly well put.

fp


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Its a subject that really does not need to be talked openly about. People do cull there birds. Some cull by giving the birds new homes. humane that way. Theres allway someone wanting a back yard pigeon. Others well they destroy . But that should not be discussed on a open forum. But we here at this site can not go to another froum and change ideas. It takes time to sway others on choices they have that would be more humane. I would stay clear of offencesive sites. As it would lead to long debated aurguments People change 1 at a time. At least here its understood We do not talk and condone culling by takeing a birds life. So its a subject that will not be spoken about here. And it should not be debated about I think what other sites allow. the only thing I would suggest is perhaps contact the host site adminostrater And suggest that many people may view that site even children and some will have a strong distaste to a subject as that. Though it happesn it should not be discussed openly as if its nothing concerned about. But thats just my 2 cents worth on this matter I say how about we let this thread fall down the line. As it will create deep feelings that is not in the best interest to this forum.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Zero tolerance for inhumane treatment, including culling*

I think culling birds inhumanely is a cop out, especially when you have someone else do the "dirty work." 

It is cruel and totally irresponsible. Some people put so much effort trying to breed the perfect bird, the consequence is more birds, many unwanted. Why not take the effort and find good homes for the unwanted birds. 

I only think drastic measures like PTS humanily, should be done if the bird is suffering with no chance of recovery, and with what I have seen here, that is very few birds.

With that said, lets get on to a better topic.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Well I'm totaly against it!!
At school we started WWII and how Hitler culled out all kinds of people (ie: Jewish, gypcies, mentally/physicaly hadicaped, etc,). So I think these "breeders" as Pigeon Nazis.
Hilary Dawn


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

All I have to say, Is I should not have read that link! Now I can see clearly why Squidgets breeder thinks I am a NUT!

Denise


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

AlanBlivens is also a member of our forum. For those of us who love pigeons, whether they are lame, sick or old, this site topic is really offensive.

Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

..it's a "Saint Francis Prayer" thing...

You know...

"God grant me the power to change what I can..to accept what I can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference"...or however it goes...

I guess I need to find out just "how" it does go, especially if I am trying to quote it! Or to live it...

But anyway...

Every day, untold millions of Birds are culled by the inexorable processes of Nature and the relations of individuals to their habitat and to the other members of ecological systems.

As rehabbers, the Birds we get, are those whose circumstances or individual conditions of injury or illness or seperation from their parents, in effect, had slated them for culling. 

We help them, we raise them, convelesce them, we release them when they are releaseable, we accept as permenent family-members, those who can not be released, and, we love them not only as Birds, but as the individuals they are. And because we are lucky to have the chance to experience them vividly as individuals whom we, in our way, may get to know and to have meaningful interactions and relations with.

We are in a unique position this way...which is very different from how others experience Birds in their care, or who are at their mercy somehow.

We do what we do in deference 'to' these Birds as individuals in our wish for them to find fulfillments of their own...and what satisfactions and epiphanys we may find, enrich our lives in making us more aware, and more appreciative.

For others, the Birds are an intentionally selected property and discipline, and it is in deference to the goals of the person, that the Birds must conform, and not the other way around.

Too, very few Vets have the time to ever know their Bird patients as individuals, or to interact with them deferentially and with patience and involvement or intimacy over time. 

Their situation is one of being perenially harried and for huge demands to be constant for how their attentions may be disciplined and applied to an unending stream of varied species of diverely injured, ill or infant patients, and very limitied room and logistics for personally careing for any of them. Their situation is for a patient to be presented, and to be examined and treated with alacrity, and then to move on to the next one.

This, of course, is not at all easy for anyone to do, and harder still to do well.

When we can find one who does do it well...we are very lucky and need to cultivate and care for that acquaintance and it's blessings.

Anyone who has raised logistically orphanned Baby Pigeons or other Birds, finds out very soon how truely and distinctly individual each one is in it's character, temprement and mood...how each one is a unique presence.

Others, will never have this experience nor the time for it to happen, as a dimention of their relations with Birds that their kind of involvement with them is about. Even if some perfunctory hand-raising does occur for them sometimes.

Untold billions of Chickens, Ducks, Geese, Turkeys, and other Birds, every year, are raised in terrible conditions, to be processed for food materials for a wide range of their own and other domestic or captive species.

Their lives in many ways are arguably worse, than if they were to have perished in infancy from privation or predation, yet, it is a multi billion dollar interlocking chain of businesses and industries...which rely on just such indecency cruelty and innurement to their property and subsequent products made from them.

It is hard to reach out much past, or much farther, than to accept simply those Birds which we find, or which are brought to us, who, as individuals, by fate or chance or mysterious or improbable co-incidence or as may be.....which in effect, by such, are elected to recieve a potential reprieve from slow or incipient death.

Those Breeders, Racers, hobbiests, and so on who cull...to them, it is no different than for a Gardener to pull out those plants they percieve as 'weeds'...and as weeds that do not belong in the kind of Garden they are busy tending and protecting and cultivating.

I could not be such a 'gardener'...even if I can 'see' their point of view to do what they do.

The ones I talked with personally in times past, I would say, "Well, you know, I would be very interested to have those Babys and others whom you would routinely cull...so, lets work something out, and let me have them...or let me trade you something of value to you, for the extra time or trouble it takes you, for us to get together for this whenever it comes around..."

And they'd say, "What do you want them for? They are defective, or sick, or they have something wrong with them, or are too old to be any good...they are no good...you are wasteing your time..."

And I'd say, "Well, to me, each one is an individual, I am not interested in showing them or racing them or anything, I am interested in 'them' getting to be 'them' in each their own way...who will be posessed of his or own unique personality and character, and if even only 'some' of them make it under my care, I feel it is worth it simply because I like them, and want them to have a chance...and I have had good luck in the past, and I enjoy working with such Birds..."

And they look at me like I am crazy...like I was wanting to 'save' refuse or weeds...or saving something that to them is 'wrong' TO 'save'.

The orientation is so completely different...

Now, too...I think it is worthwhile, if one wants to, TO personally work out some schpiel, by trial and error and by being sensitive to any possibility of what might 'work'...o ffinding some angle, to talk with any breeders or racer people and so on, in person if possible, and make one's pitch.

One-on-one...and find out from each one as an individual...and I know that some of them, if you can feel out how to handle them, some of them will grudgeingly conceed TO the for-them inconvenience, or dubious ethical deed for them, of putting 'culled' ones into a cage or box and calling you to come get them. 

And I am sure some will do so happily even, or with real motivation and positive energy, because maybe they did not really like culling, but did not know what else TO do...and there was no other practical option for them.

But this of course will be a delicate negotiation to try with most of them...

Overall, they do not have any other 'solution', and they do not have a point of view which recommends 'saveing' the Birds they would cull...and it is hard for them to feel they are doing something 'right' even to let others save them or care for or raise them.

But I am certain, at least sometimes, it can be done...

But even then, they could very easily get uncomfortable with it, and change their mind possibly...and even feel that they are being party to something that for them seems 'wrong' to do...so save the seemingly 'defective', or the spent, or the injured who can not fly now and is not a top breeding candidate from past excellences in some discipline, or the too old, or as may be...

This is just the way it is.

And, if one begins with one's own community, to make the acquaintance of these people...

For that matter, if one makes a little flier or card or something, and goes to ALL the various Vets, or even some Vets, and makes it known that one does this sort of Work, and, that one can back it up with real know-how...

Well, really, even one or two Vets, come Spring, will bury you if they start referring walk-ins and call-ins your way.

I know..!

Can you take care of ten, twenty, thirty, or seventy variously infant, injured, ill, car hit, Dog Mauled, Hawk Mauled, emeciated, old, or otherwise not-making-it in the Wilds...Birds? All at once?

I got buried more than once...and my name was thumb tacked to the receptionist's wall at only one ( "1" ) 'All Night Animal Emergency Hospital'.

This was very hard on me, but I muddled through...but there was not enough 'me' to spread out so much without the quality of 'me' getting a mite thin sometimes...and this is not fair to the Birds...but overall we did pretty allright...but it was close to there being simply not enough of me for so many sometimes.

So, in some ways too...be careful what you ask for...!

You just might get it...


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*AVMA Euthanasia Study*

This is a somewhat long but very informative read: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

Some of those Roller folks should be ashamed.

Terry


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Terry, 
That is just wrong and shamefull!!
Those inhalent gases burn!! When I was in my gr 11 and 12 Chemistry classes I did by accident breath in too much of some of those and man let me tell you it hurt like an SOB, and not for a few minutes or hours.......for almost 3 WEEKS it hurt. 
We, at the shelter, use that T-61 drug, but it's a quick and an effective drug. It acts as I muscle relaxer and it relaxes the heart muscles too much and it stop beating, it sound awful but the animals feel no pain from this drug (it has general anistitcis in it and such).
I think the people who wrote this "book" (or should we call it "fire starter") at too much time on their hands and should get a life. On second thought we should just try all those methods on them and see how they like it. 
Hilary Dawn


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

That roller forum discussion on culling birds really is sick I can't believe they talk about it like that, like these birds are worthless. It really is very shocking to read how they can do this but yet classify themselves as pigeon fanciers.

Debbie, I think you are wasting your time in that forum and it's not a place for you to be. You've said what you could but these people are clearly in a totally different "place" than we are.

Very disturbing


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, well said. That is one of the best posts I have read. I agree with you that some of the breeders' mind-set is like the gardener culling weeds from the garden. They look at it that way and see nothing wrong with what they do. Maybe I'm that way when I pursue a fly with a swatter.

Maggie


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Yes Phil, 

That was very thought out, Thank you for the great post!

Now, I will feel guilty when I pull weeds! Lol! Well, I guess no tomatoes next year!

Denise


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## EvilMonkey666 (Dec 1, 2005)

Yes that is sick. I dont know how they can call themselves pigeons fanciers when they are killing the very birds they should be saving/rescuing/and keeping as pets. Some of the methods I have read about on there..and I didnt read much of it because I couldnt stomach it..are inhumane, cruel, and downright discustingly vulgar, and its animal abuse. I would not want to be a participant in a forum like that.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Thank you*

for your support and thoughts. I just thought to give people another alternative to the old mindset. Some people don't know times are changing and you don't need to kill an animal because you have to many. Or you don't want to med it. Up until I read that thread. I was enjoying to learn about rollers. Just wanted to give people a better choice. Yes, it freaked me out when I read it. I like it here much better. You all are kind and compassionate.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I want to say. agin this thread can be miss understood. The people on the other site. well they believ what they are doing is right. Here they are found in the wrong.And that shows the 2 worlds. The old saying that some things are best kept un said holds true here. i knew when I read the thread and looked at the othersite people would be offended. And post negitive thoughts. The word cull offends people by its self. But just giving birds away that do not fit a pewrsons program is culling. Race people cull in the races. birds that do not make it back home are considered culled. Then we have the ones that destory un wanted birds. Now that does not make them mean people And show they really hate birds. NO they still care. But look at what they have a little different. They want to just as others do take there breeding forwad with top birds. And some believe they never want anybody getting birds from there loft that does not help the breed. YES other methods are done to give them away rather then destroy them. But too there are people out thre that grab these unwanted birds sell them to others by saying this bird was bred by so and so And you know they have great birds And i will sell it to you for this amount of money. Then the unknowing person buys them think a greatdeal came along And later finds out they were not. THIS happens by the peddlers. Who hurt the hobby. Im not defending lethal culling But its part of every thing out to do with man and birds animals ect THat man has cultivated. So agin to me this thread is a bad thread for this forum. BECAUSE of the personal feelings that believe its wrong to do so here. I respect that holey here And know through the many years I had raised pigeons I have met some great people I will have and had respected that did lethal culling I never though less of them for it. So I still say some things are best kept unsaid. I believe in people and look at the what and why. before I ever judge. We can not judge those who do not believ as we do. Or then we are more wrong then they are.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok .. offering an opinion here .. don't breed more than you can handle humanely .. and breed for quality .. not quantity.

Read the AVMA piece I posted .. the only +real+ humane way is IV .. I know that pigeon fanciers aren't doing this .. it's a controlled drug and they can't get it. Robert, thank you for your well thought out post.

Terry


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Culling*

the report was interesting. They make death sound so peaceful. If you sell a bird you know as a cull it should be stated. Also bands could be removed. So there is no proof of who the bird belongs to and it can't compet. It just becomes a pet for backyard breeders.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

This is Phyll. Ya know, the one who is the LEAST "politically correct" on this forum.
Here goes:
In this case, saying some things are better left unsaid, is absolutely WRONG!
People should learn about what goes on, especially in cases of animal abuse! Certainly, they SHOULD speak up, in an attempt to help defenseless creatures.
Why should we not try to help those pigeons?
Maybe we could change a mind or two.
For the sake of the pigeons, we should at least try.

I used to be one those who "stuck their head in the sand" by changing the channel, or putting literature down. I didn't want to read about, let alone actually see, pictures of animal abuse.
Now that I know better, I force myself to become educated on the subject.
Becoming aware of horrible things, still bothers me greatly, but that's too bad for me. 
Had I continued to refuse to educate myself, I would not have been able to help.
I thank upcd for bringing this to our attention, & for trying to help. May God bless you for your generous offer. Hopefully, some pigeons will be spared a horrible death. 

In my particular case, Jesse may have been a goner had I not learned about owners KILLING pigeons who got lost, or returning later than expected.
I realize that not all owners do this, but his freakin' owner did not even care to be contacted!
My intention was to locate this loft, then release Jesse a block away, so he could go home.
When I think about it now, I literally feel sick. He could have been killed as a result of my trying to "help" him.

It's our responsibility to read about these horrors, & try to help.
We should not take the easy way out & dismiss it by saying, "Some things are best kept unsaid."
With regard to killing unwanted birds, ~ Yes! That action DOES make them "mean" people. 
Not only mean, but cruel & morally bankrupt! 

Who are they to decide that a creature does not deserve to live, just because he or she does not meet THEIR standards? 
They are not God, who, in fact, instructs us to speak up for what is right!
Killing a perfectly healthy creature is WRONG!
You may respect those people, but I sure don't, & never will.

In my opinion, which is the correct one by-the-way, anyone who intentionally harms a creature does not deserve an ounce of respect ~ make that an iota! And I don't give a s___ how they try to justify their evil ways!

After reading the methods those @#$%@ on the other site use to kill their pigeons, I'm in-a-mood!
Not only do they think it's acceptable to kill pigeons, but they discuss it like it's absolutely fine; that frightens me. 

Each & every one of them disgusts me; I despise them!
I hope they croak so their pigeons may be spared!
If this post is unacceptable to this forum, so be it, & I am out of here.

I love you guys more than you know, but you SHOULD speak up more. 
As long as I have a memory, I will never forget the post in which the person (I use that word loosely) stated that he ONLY KILLED his weak, sick & unstable pigeons. I know that many of you read that post, yet, not one word was said to that b______! Please, the pigeons' welfare should come above your concern for a person's feelings.

Yes, I've gotten a little off-track here, but I want you guys to know my feelings.
Now I am going to kiss Jesse, & thank God for him for the thousandth time.

Phyll


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

the poor birds


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Phyll,

Thank you for speaking up, I agree!

Now, I will thank God for everyone here on this forum who have spoken up against cruelty to animals and birds...in every form.

I would also like to say, that these people who practice these methods, including taking birds on tosses for the purpose of losing them, (my husband knew someone who did that) do not have real feelings or love for their birds.
That is incredible for me to beleve, but it has to be the truth. They are just in the sport to win, or something else, love for the birds, it isn't that.

I have two new little refugees who were lost or "culled" because of ill-training, neglect, and just generally-they didn't want them back. Thanks to Reti they were saved, and she brought them to me. One youngster is a gorgeous white racing bird, the other, a young squeeker, named Thomas, who is a white king, someone used for a white dove release. He was found at St. Thomas church.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am one of those people who absolutely cringed when I read the responses on the roller forum. Many of us probably have first hand knowledge of what they do to pigeons if someone finds a lost bird and makes a real effort to return the bird to its owner. If they would only try to find someone who would take these birds, or, even euthanize in a humane way, it would be better.

With that said, I must also say that I am very grateful to pigeon breeders. Were it not for them we would still be in the days of medicating our birds with dog or cat drugs. Now, we have medications that are developed specifically for pigeons. We would not have all the great pigeon supply houses such as Globals, Foys, Jedds, etc. were it not for them. The "occasional" pigeon keeper of one to two pigeons or rehabbers would not have the variety of resources available, such as grit, pellets, seeds, cages, perches, etc., were it not for the breeders. Much of what we know about the care of pigeons is based on what breeders have passed on to us. They also may indirectly help us rehabbers by being a large, powerful group that can help sway the public on how great pigeons are, thereby making the public more tolerant of our ferals.

It is a "catch 22" situation. You don't like their d___ ways but you can't put them down entirely.

Maggie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I used the concept that sometimes its best to leave things unsaid As a rule in life. Just as a husband and wife at times its better to not say something. because it lead to a dispute. It is not ducking and hiding from a problem. Its understanding that what happens does happen. And saying something hurts feelings and makes a situation worse. As has been demonstrated here. Many feelings have been hurt. Because what is true is also offensive to people. Yes other methods as in giving unwanted birds to others is best. Saves lifes. BUT at the same time. many thousands of pigeons are bred each year just here in the U S A. And finding homes for all of the un wanted birds is hard to do. Thank god for the ones that did find homes for them. Its well understood here that people do not like culling by destroying the birds. AND its most often unspoken here. Because it offends most here. Thats why I said it better not to speak of it. We can not stop it. We can only do as we can. To get it stopped at a national level. It would end the back yard lofts the pigeon shows the races. And the pigeon hobby would come to a end. THAT is the truth. people that have a few birds And do not breed them much are not faced with the problem that breeders have that raise for a hobby aND love of pigeons Face. controled breeding still most raise 3 rounds. that six per pair times numbers of pairs. So 10 pair is 60 youngbirds a season. A person can not keep them all. AND people that show race or compete with there birds. Have to just keep the better birds. I my self had to find people to take my unwanted birds. Now at times I had more people wanting then I had to give away. Then others it took a little looking to find people that would take them. No matter how great a pair of birds are there young birds will not all be keepers. To go forward. you have to control quality. More people hate pigeons then the ones that like and love them. That makes it harder to raise and keep them Cities towns neigborhoods bans keeping them. Its hard to keep the hobby growing REHABERS. try to help and save sick or injured birds. They to have to find homes for recoverd birds . And find to its not allways that easy. NO times that by the many thousands raised each year. It hard to do. Hating fellow pigeon keepers is wrong. NOW the omnes that do not take care of the birds they have and have birds that are weak and sick and try to peddle them for a dollar. THEY get known in the pigeon worl. and are not liked well. Then we have the new comers they get birds. Care for them a little while. Then starve them to death. Or turn them loose to be possibly killed or injured in the wild. Its a job taking care ok sevral pigeons. keeping them healthy. keeping them abl to stay compeitive. If pigeon breeders did not care for the birds. QWe would have less different breeds. Less strengh in the hobby. AND laws that impose that we can not keep them any longer. yearly place passordaninces. that inhibit pigeon keeping. I am not taking up for lethal culling. But it goes on. And Yes its better to not speak of it. Thats not looking the other way. Just as a rehaber can only help the birds they can. Or a person can give there unwanted birds away. to a good home in hopes. We can not stop what is happening. yes can change somes way. but its 1 step at a time. BUt I am not going to hate a person. THat I know cares very much for there birds. AND has helped countless others To come into the sport and then condem that personBecause of there methods in removing un wanted birds. I did what I did. You do as you do. They as they do. I bet in the end a person could not tell who cared more for there birds then an other. As people keep 1 to several hundred pigeons at a time. Does the person that has 1 pigeon love pigeons any more then the 1 that has 600 pigeons. I think not. A good loft cost a good penny to build. A good bird costs a good penny to buy. driveing hundreds of miles to a 1 day show. raceing birds training birds It all is out of the love for pigeons. sure the person with just the 1 2 may 10 birds They do not have to get rid of birds every year. they can keep them all. They do not promote the hobby the sport they keep as a pet. BUT will they have then 10 20 30 40 years later or will they grow tired of them and never have them agin. Will they meet and help a few or hundreds over the years get into the hobby promote the raiseing and keeping of pigeons. Will they fight the cities and towns enable to keep there pigeons. See because of the people that raise pigeons and spread the hobby around more people will come later to carry it on. How can hating them that are a credit To the future be right. So agin yes be mad upset. BUT do not hate. do as you can and will. Enjoy the birds. fighting is a end less battle. If over done all will loose.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am glad you spoke up as you did Phyll. I agree with your view.

Cynthia


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I'm sorry but I just had to say this:
many are saying we can't change these people's minds cause of the "old mind" set mentality. I see differently. My mother's father one day decided to move here to my home town last year. I had seen or spoken this man in over 14 years!!! The last time I "saw" him I was 2 years old going to my grandmother's funeral after she lost her fight to cancer. So 14 years down the road he wants to move here. I thought it would be nice to get to know him after all that time he'd been out of my life. The very first night he was here in my family's house he called all women the "c-word" and slaves to men. (I'm a womens' activist by the way) So I stood up and slapped him in the face!! I told him if he EVER wanted to live here in my town he had better take back those words back and change his mind set. And do you know what he is changing his ways about women. I don't really want anything to do with the old bugger but I have to deal with it. But like I said he is changing. I might not have changed his thinking, but I did change his actions, and as we all know action speak louder than words.
Hilary Dawn


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I went back to the roller forum. The thread about culling and how different poeple do it. HAS BEEN DELETED> As it was found to be offenceive. And its been recomeneded there not to discuss it anymore on that site. So the subject I still believe should be also dropped here as IT offends people and creates disputes and debates There are far more constructive threads to post and participate in That do not anger and upset people I vote to close this thread how about any one else voting the same.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Robert, I went back the same as you and was pleased to see they had deleted.
I'm with you. Can you lock it up as a moderator?

Maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*This Thread is Now Closed*

If anyone has a problem with that, I can reverse it.

Thank you


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