# Any good Black family ?



## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

anyone have a good black family?
how are they doing? and what are they out off?

thanks


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

blongboy said:


> anyone have a good black family?
> how are they doing? and what are they out off?
> 
> thanks


My blacks are doing good but it will be another year or maybe two before I introduce them to you all as *Black ACE'S*. I had two black sisters on my yb team last year. between them they had two 1st place wins, 3 equal 1st's and a 2nd place at 350 miles.

Your birds will be racing against their cousins in the PT Invitational this year. Black Ace 71 is bred back to a sibling to two of the birds in that race.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

http://whiteracers.20m.com/photo6.html

Dennis Kuhn of whiteracers.com has some good blacks
Dave


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

blongboy said:


> anyone have a good black family?
> how are they doing? and what are they out off?
> 
> thanks


Ive got these blacks ...there the best blacks ive flown and ive fown almost every blacks out there that u heard of before...dont know what they are but was told there good stuff. Not the blacks u have heard of either cause i asked n its not any of the blacks ive heard of


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I have a few black birds that flew very well but I lost the father which was a DC HVR . The mother was a gift bird from a guy that kept no records but I still have her. She flew out to 500 miles but I don't race her any more because I want her for breeding plans I have. She is velvet soft and has distance shaped primaries . I tried breeding out of the 2 boys I have with minimal success. 

I have seen some HVR's for sale which are black you might find something you like there.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> I have seen some HVR's for sale which are black you might find something you like there.


The problem with this statement Eric is that HVR had NO black birds as is with many of the other so called old families of birds that now have black and other colors that did not exist in those families of birds.

HVR flew back in the 1960's I believe but yet people still say they have HVR's.


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## lahunter562 (Jun 9, 2014)

I don't want to hijack the thread, but here is my question. I also have a pair of black pigeons from Gilson black background. Does anybody know how are they? good or bad?


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

It is my understanding that the Gilson black pigeons were developed in Australia and are considered a very good family of distance birds. Probably not the best for middle distance and futurity races?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> The problem with this statement Eric is that HVR had NO black birds as is with many of the other so called old families of birds that now have black and other colors that did not exist in those families of birds.
> 
> HVR flew back in the 1960's I believe but yet people still say they have HVR's.


If you breed to try and get black you can do it and still call them Sions, a guy in our club bred them to come up with a black, it took him 30 years to cultivate the blacks but now he can breed them and he never let a non sion into his breeding loft. If he wanted to he could trace every bird in his loft back to the birds he got from Chas Heitzman.
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I only know that the bird I beleive is HVR was a dark check and the mother is black. I have 2 sons from her and she will produce black part of the time . I am sure it has something to do with the sex link genes. On a separate note , Ron Deisher has a website with birds imported from Michael VanLint called Black Rain(HVR). So I can't really say what my birds are other than black. I checked out Ron Huntley's Rare Color Homing Pigeon web site for information on color and found that the 3 basic colors are brown, blue/black and ash red. These colors are found on the Z sex chromosome which cocks have 2 of and hens only have one. I am going a little off subject but this information also is helpful know which parent bird can give what genetic information to there babies, because the Z chromosome is loaded with information and since a hen only has one copy of Z to pass to the offspring and the male has 2 Z chromosomes it easy to see why one male stud start the line of a family.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

ace in the hole said:


> The problem with this statement Eric is that HVR had NO black birds as is with many of the other so called old families of birds that now have black and other colors that did not exist in those families of birds.
> 
> HVR flew back in the 1960's I believe but yet people still say they have HVR's.


well black rain is black and hes a imported HVR


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

blongboy said:


> well black rain is black and hes a imported HVR


People call them HVR's. True HVR's do not exist any more. That is fact. The birds called HVR now have been bred by other flyers for over 45 years now with other blood and colors bred into them. As stated earlier he did not have any black birds. It is like me passing away and everyone across the world breeding from my stock birds and Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great Grand Children 45 years from now calling them Red Ace's when I don't have a red bird in my loft. 

*Only HVR would select and breed the way he did.* They are now Smith's, Johnson's or who ever bred them. It really makes no sense to call them HVR's any more. But hey, people do because it makes them feel good to own HVR's or maybe because it sells birds.

Like it or not this is fact not fiction.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

ACE you are probably technically correct in some ways . Just like the Janssen birds that are descended from O19 have been changed over time too but in reality some are still related to this bird just so far back in the pedigree it might not mean anything. I do believe that proper breeding and record keeping will show in some families the linage of the modern birds today. We're splitting hairs with this thinking and much of the normal Pigeon Fanciers jargon is not biological correct. For example : people talk of strains , families and breeds etc. without taking any notion a biologist would possibly attribute to these terms. Crosses between racing pigeons when no relationship for 6 generations but in reality I believe that most if not all the racing pigeons are related. A real cross is between two different breeds altogether . When we say purebred , people mean (homozygous) and non- purebreds being heterozygous.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

After two or three generations any family of birds bred by another flyer the stock sense and hand selection it took to create that family of birds is lost forever.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> After two or three generations any family of birds bred by another flyer the stock sense and hand selection it took to create that family of birds is lost forever.


true you have to continue along some line of your own but given 2 very good producer hens and one very well bred cock you can start your own family of birds ( and a bit of luck) based on the creators and your own ideal bird type. So with that said every time one breeds with an unrelated cock to his "family"  he changes it for the good or bad so I will agree that families change over time. Only with careful breeding and selecting can a person hope to keep a line producing top racers.


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## 95SPORTSTER (Jun 30, 2011)

I have a friend who has been breeding the same family of HVR'S for over 30 years with no out crossing and he has been generating black's. That said there's a lot of Black families of bird's, I am working with Black Knights, Black Houbens and Black widows. All depends on where you get them and what you do with them.


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

Black in pigeons is not really a color but rather a pattern. It's actually blue with the spread pattern. I have black birds that I bred out of a blue cock and a spread ash red hen, then I crossed one of the black hens I got from that breeding onto a bronze bar cock(indigo) and got Andalusian which is technically spread indigo or spread bronze whatever you wanna call it. Now I also have black splash and Andalusian splash too.I'll try to post some pictures of them.


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

*Andi*

Andi my andalusian


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

Andi again
He was my first bird fifth club on a tough 250 mile race ended up 16th high point YB bird in our club and hi brother was 3rd champion bird YB


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

Andi's frilled half sister


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

Another nestmate


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## Formidable1 (Jan 30, 2012)

blongboy said:


> well black rain is black and hes a imported HVR


If you wanna try the black Rain stuff I have a direct son off Black rain. I got him before I stopped racing so haven't tested them. Now that I am back in racing, I am going another direction. Lmk


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Earlier this year before breeding season, I went back through my results for the past 5 or 6 years and found out that I have had a lot of success with the Black Widows that Ive flown. This year I crossed all of my widow blood onto my Stars Fall family of birds. So far, Im really happy with the way theyve turned out. Races start in 2wks, so we shall see how they fly.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> The problem with this statement Eric is that HVR had NO black birds as is with many of the other so called old families of birds that now have black and other colors that did not exist in those families of birds.
> 
> HVR flew back in the 1960's I believe but yet people still say they have HVR's.


I have been thinking about this statement you made and I haven't had a chance to get to a computer till today so correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Black just a spread gene and the underling color of the "Black Bird" is really a blue with black tail bars , and the black color is spread across the entire body. Spread is dominant so if what you say the HVR partnership brought in birds from other lofts it quite possible that they got the dominant spread gene of black from someone else in the form of a blue bar with the spread gene.


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## Kalscoop (Nov 29, 2012)

ERIC K said:


> I have been thinking about this statement you made and I haven't had a chance to get to a computer till today so correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Black just a spread gene and the underling color of the "Black Bird" is really a blue with black tail bars , and the black color is spread across the entire body. Spread is dominant so if what you say the HVR partnership brought in birds from other lofts it quite possible that they got the dominant spread gene of black from someone else in the form of a blue bar with the spread gene.


It's my understanding that a dominant genotype in color always shown in the phenotype and can't be not hidden. There can be exceptions where other color modifiers can mask a dominant color but blue bar or check can't hide black. And someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> I have been thinking about this statement you made and I haven't had a chance to get to a computer till today so correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Black just a spread gene and the underling color of the "Black Bird" is really a blue with black tail bars , and the black color is spread across the entire body. Spread is dominant so if what you say the HVR partnership brought in birds from other lofts it quite possible that they got the dominant spread gene of black from someone else in the form of a blue bar with the spread gene.


I will ask someone from PIGEON AND DOVE GENETICS to swing over and answer this for you but I do think you have the answer. I have been around pigeons since the 70s and have not seen or heard of black HVR's until the last few years. I have also never had a Black young come out of any blue pairing.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I know a friend mated a dark velvet hen to a silver with a lot of black flecking, he was almost a grizzled silver and got black, then inbred them to produce more blacks. These birds are Sion, The HVR's well I guess they were just VR's we had back in the 60's never produced a red or a silver.
Dave


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> Well I know a friend mated a dark velvet hen to a silver with a lot of black flecking, he was almost a grizzled silver and got black, then inbred them to produce more blacks. These birds are Sion, The HVR's well I guess they were just VR's we had back in the 60's never produced a red or a silver.
> Dave


I would have to check but I do not think there was any black in the Sion's either. If not then the proper way to put that would be to say the birds "pedigrees said" they were Sion's. People have to stop thinking these pedigrees are gospel.


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

Black rain is hvr on his dams side you would have to contact Mr van lint to know the sires side

I own this hen http://www.angelfire.com/planet/ronald47578/cassie.html


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

gbhman said:


> Eric, black is a spread blue. Over the years I have raised several blacks out of blue bar pairs and blue check pairs... however these blue bars and checks came from my black pairs. Having said that, they say that all of our pigeons descend down from the rock dove. They were all blue bars, and look at all the colors and patterns we have out there now. This means that colors etc. can and do mutate. Is it possible in the case of black rain? I suppose it's possible,* but the more likely explanation would be a mating to a different bird at some recent point*.


That is what I'm saying...


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Black is indeed blue with at least one dominant gene for spread. The bird is still blue the pigment is just grouped differently due to the presence of the spread gene. Ash red pigeons that carry black can show a huge variance in color they appear to be due to the influence of the underlying pattern iin combination with the spread gene. They can be a very light ash with no pattern showing to a deep mahogany red that looks like a red velvet.

You can never raise a black out of two blue bars or checks. If you have a pair that raised a black it is because the hen was thread by a cock bird that carried spread. That cock bird is either a black or an ash red that is carrying spread. You may not recognize that the ash red cock bird carries the spread factor. Spread is dominant but it has to be present in one of the parents to ever get a black.



ace in the hole said:


> I will ask someone from PIGEON AND DOVE GENETICS to swing over and answer this for you but I do think you have the answer. I have been around pigeons since the 70s and have not seen or heard of black HVR's until the last few years. I have also never had a Black young come out of any blue pairing.


If you would like to see some examples and explanations of spread and other factors with pictures in racing homers take a look at this thread. I put up a number of pictures and explanations of the colors and factors the birds were carrying along with the common names used by the homer folks for these birds as well as the description the genetics folks would use to describe the birds. I believe there are a least three spread birds shown in this thread.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/colors-explained-76099.html


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## Brown Family Lofts (Jun 26, 2013)

Breeding in cages is the honest and only way to do it. That is only way I do it. And yes if u have them in Cage I have seen colors not match what experts say. This is with pairs in cages for months.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Black Inheritance*

I would really like to see the pictures of some of the blacks you raised from blue pigeons, and pictures of the parents if you have them. We may be getting crossed up by terminology. A lot of homer folks refer to a very dark t-pattern birds as a black velvet. If the t-pattern birds also carry a factor for dirty they can appear almost as black as a spread pigeon, but they will still show the terminal tail bar because they don't carry spread.

Genetics is a precise science, and you can't breed black pigeons without the presence of the spread gene. The spread gene is a dominant gene. If it is present in a blue pigeon the pigeon will show it as black. It cannot be carried hidden. The spread mutation likely occurred many hundreds of years ago through a mutation. The odds of you getting that same mutation multiple times in your individual pens is zero.

Ash red and to some extent brown pigeons can hide the affects of the spread gene depending on the pattern of the individual birds. Ash red bars carrying spread are usually a light silver / lavender color with no pattern showing, but once in a while you will get a spread ash red pigeon that appears to have red bars. Those bars are not caused by ash red. They are usually fainter that the ash red bars, and they are caused by a bronze / kite factor in the ash red birds. As you progress up the dominance of the pattern series to t-pattern you will sometimes get birds that look like red velvets with a solid brick red wing shield. These birds cannot be identified as carrying spread without breeding them. Hens with this factor and appearance when bred to blue cock birds will produce black youngsters. Brown will also cover that presence of spread until test mated. Brown usually covers because browns are often hard to determine the exact pattern due to the tendency of the color to fade on older feathers.

I am posting the pictures of two birds I have mated in individual pens. I will then post the young off these two birds to show you how you can get a black or more spread pigeons from a mating that does not appear to carry the factor.

This first bird is an ash red bar cock bird that also carries a gene for blue. This bird is the sire to the young I will post.









This hen is the dam. I thought she was a T-pattern brown, but that turned out to be wrong. She is a spread brown pigeon as was proved with the first hatching from this pair.









This picture is a young cock bird produced in the first round. He is a spead ash red (lavender) that carries brown hidden. I don't have a more recent picture of him, but as an adult he shows a very faint bronze bar.










This bird is a young black hen produced in the second round in the individual pen. At the time of the production of these birds. I did not own a cock bird that carried black, but I did not believe the cock produced in the first round was a spread pigeon until they produced this black hen in the second round. She is not a good quality (dark) black but she does not show the termiinal tail bar that is evident in black velvets.



















gbhman said:


> Sorry Chuck, but as I said I have raised several blacks like this over the years, and my individual breeding cages also say another cock bird did NOT tread the hen. I have several lines housed in one loft and want no unintentional crossing to go on between them, so when they are breeding they are in individual breeding cages. I've read what the "experts" have written, and used to believe it, but after having bred them myself and seeing it with my own eyes... I don't believe much in what they write anymore.


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

I bred a dun grizzle out of a bluebar and a blue grizzle


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

blongboy said:


> anyone have a good black family?
> how are they doing? and what are they out off?
> 
> thanks


I have black racers that are from an old black Schimmel cock that was crossed with a Trenton hen many years ago. All of the young cocks are born black and the hens are black pied with white flight usually. They are fair to good short and shine at long distance but not until the third year. Tough birds that fly every race. Other than that I know nothing about color genetics and such, I care about the first head in the door. Jim


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Since this site won't allow five pictures in one post. I am putting this last pic here. 

This last bird was another cock that was produced in the second round. This cock bird (ash red check) is what I expected to get out of this pairing.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

ssyyb2 said:


> I bred a dun grizzle out of a bluebar and a blue grizzle


I don't want to keep derailing you guys thread on blacks, but I would be interesting to see a picture of the birds if you have them in another thread.
What homer folks call dun is not always what genetic folks call dun.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> I would have to check but I do not think there was any black in the Sion's either. If not then the proper way to put that would be to say the birds "pedigrees said" they were Sion's. People have to stop thinking these pedigrees are gospel.


There are a lot of people you can or can not trust, but my friend got all his Sions from Heitzman, he has always kept them pure, so yes I will trust the peds of these birds.
Dave


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> There are a lot of people you can or can not trust, but my friend got all his Sions from Heitzman, he has always kept them pure, so yes I will trust the peds of these birds.
> Dave


That sounds just like what we just went through with the HVR's. 

Paul Sion started in the sport around 1895. How long has Heitzman had these particular Sion's and what do we all consider pure? These are real old lines and no one knows how close or far From pure they really are any more.


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

Chuck K said:


> I don't want to keep derailing you guys thread on blacks, but I would be interesting to see a picture of the birds if you have them in another thread.
> What homer folks call dun is not always what genetic folks call dun.


I could not attach a picture so I put them under my photo album

First is a dun grizzle currently on my race team

Second is an 11 flight Dunbar splash probably going to sell her born to late both are from the same pair a bluebar and a grizzle blue


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I entered a bird in a one loft race this year out of two checks. I would of consider it a dark check. They entered it in the race inventory as black. With out the spread gene I can't see a black pigeon being bred. OK maybe a mutation from a pair without the spread gene but it would be a very rare thing. Same pair of birds multiple times I don't see it happening. 

I think all these colors and different breeds of pigeons are really just mutations that have been selected for over years of breeding. 

I have a black cock (from Dennis Kuhn) mated to a mealy hen. Three rounds out of them, the first round was a silver or lavender cock like the one pictured below, the other two cocks are mealy with all three hens being black. 

I think it would really be cool to see a team of all black pigeons, if they could win.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

ssyyb2 said:


> I could not attach a picture so I put them under my photo album
> 
> First is a dun grizzle currently on my race team
> 
> Second is an 11 flight Dunbar splash probably going to sell her born to late both are from the same pair a bluebar and a grizzle blue



Do you have brown in your birds? I believe the first is a brown bar. The second is as you said a dun bar grizzle. The dun bar is a result of dilute. The sire would be carrying the gene for dilute hidden. I think he is also carrying brown hidden. The brown could also be a dilute (khaki) but it doesn't look light enough. If I am right both of these birds are hens.

So as not to take the thread to far off track. Here is an example of one of my blacks. This picture is not at the best angel to show it, but if you look close you can see she does not have the termnal tail bar. The spread black with usually cover the pattern bar and checks and the tail bar. I have seen a few blacks that still show the bar pattern through the spread. This hen is supposed to be a Jansen cross, but you folks would know more about whether she looks like that strain than I would.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

gbhman said:


> Eric, black is a spread blue. Over the years I have raised several blacks out of blue bar pairs and blue check pairs... however these blue bars and checks came from my black pairs. Having said that, they say that all of our pigeons descend down from the rock dove. They were all blue bars, and look at all the colors and patterns we have out there now. This means that colors etc. can and do mutate. Is it possible in the case of black rain? I suppose it's possible, but the more likely explanation would be a mating to a different bird at some recent point.


I meant to say Blue check but it don't really matter , just good to know a little more about the genetics side . My blacks started with a gifted hen who was black or black T still confused on the different colors of blacks, anyway I had a stray bird in the loft which I found the owner and he said it was HVR . Well this was a dark check and it mated to my gifted black hen their only pair of babies were both cocks and black, so ... I say it is part HVR just for fun . I'm also going to post a picture if it turns out on the next post and it will show the family tree of the modern homing pigeon going back to the first of 3 cities in Belgium whereby unlike pigeons took a foothold in our infant sport. Antwerp, Lieege, and Vervier. From these came two ancient fanciers. Ulens and Delathouwer. Later came three more Wegge, Hansenne, and Grooters. Some believe that the mating of Charles Wegges Red Check cock to Van Schingens hen was " The Pair" of the 18th century which left there mark for decades to come. Now , with that said you can see that ALL of our birds would be related to the birds in those three cities . The birds we have now are still effective racers and you can call yours what ever you want.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

For you enjoyment


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