# summer birds



## chris purvis (Feb 23, 2004)

i have just started racing pigeons and this season i only have 9 birds for a team. a little small huh. i still have 4 pairs of birds still breeding. i havent split them up yet. is it a gaurentee that their birds wont be any good since they are born in the summer. if they may be good can i still stick them on my team for this young bird season? you can answer here or email me at [email protected]. thanks Chris


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Late hatched birds. Will not be old enough for the young bird team. But they will for old bird. But you should just fly them out to the 300 mile races. then pull them . And then the next year they will do great. I have raised several good late hatch birds that help improve the over all good of the loft. But it would be wise to break up befor the moult . So your breeders will have a healthy moult. Good luck


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Chris,

I would agree with RE to raise a round of late breds for OB season. But I would race your 9 birds in YBs provided that they're at least 3 months old before their 1st race and well trained. A 9 bird team can do a lot of damage in YB racing. Don't think you can't be competitive you might surprise yourself. Small teams are easier to work with and you can give a lot more individual attention. When's your 1st YB race?

birdy


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

I agree with the first two responses, PLUS....

Summer hatched babies tend to be more sickly. Could be due to the warmer, more humid weather (in most areas) adding to higher bacteria levels in water, the loft, etc. Also, by then, the parents might have already raised a round or two (or three) that year already, so perhaps aren't as healthy themselves as they would be earlier in the year.

If you DO raise summer babies, clean the nest bowls regularly. Change the water in the drinkers twice a day -- and watch for food spillage on the floor -- it will go bad much more quickly -- sweep it up daily. Don't leave any food in the tray, and if you live in a humid area, avoid using pellets for food -- they spoil quickly too.

AND -- make sure you get SOME training on the late hatches, even if it's only out to 10 miles before you lock down for winter (or for hawk season, depending on where you live). If you don't, you're almost guaranteed to lose those youngsters once you start training again in the spring.

Been there, done that --- we rarely raise late breds anymore now.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Excellent points WhiteWings. I'm a firm beleiver in training at an early age. I train to trap at 4-5 weeks. Then they are loft flying at 6-8 weeks and road trained in baby steps after they first route - around 9-10 weeks. It's my belief that youngsters not trained to home at an early age have a tendency to become lost more easily.

My first racing season was with late bred birds in OB racing 1986. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and used Al Stain's book "Flag Flying System". I think I had a team of about 9 or 10. The first couple of races I was at the bottom and then I had this little hen who clocked 3rd in a 200 miler. Was I ever surprised and it raised a few eyebrows from the old timers. I remember they gave me crap because I didn't phone in when my bird clocked instead of congratulating a new flyer on a good result.

Chris, there's some folks here willing to help you if you want (and you won't be singing no "Statesboro Blues" - the Allman Bros. rock!!!)

birdy


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## chris purvis (Feb 23, 2004)

thanks for getting back so quickly. my first young bird race is in september i think. my birds are about 8-10 weeks old. i just started to let them loft fly. i let them go at about 8:00 am and they trap at about 7 pm. thanks for all of your advice. chris


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

*Birdy's 12 step program*

Chris,

I hope you don't mind a few suggestions. Everyone will give you their side of things and it can get confusing at times. This is when you need to sort it out and find out what makes sense for you. Here a few pointers for what it's worth:

1. I would not let my birds have open loft from 8 - 7 (if I understand your last post). They will field on the ground eating all sorts of things and will get worms. PLUS, they will not trap well for a race. I don't know how many lofts race in your club but some races are won in the few seconds your birds can trap. They need to be disciplined and trained to trap fast. I know some racing folks will do "open loft" but for beginners I wouldn't advise it.

2. Start training your birds now. Find a time when you can loft fly your birds for at least an hour. Best at dawn when it's cool, if not then in the evenings. You will need to "flag" them to keep them flying continually. So get you a long length of 2" PVC and rig a red bandana on one end. When they start to come down wave the flag at them and keep them in the air. Now you're going to have some tree sitters so you will need to throw tennis balls at them or get a high powered water pistol. The idea here is to keep your birds flying non-stop for an hour each day.

3. Trapping. It all revolves around how much you feed them. This gets pretty tricky. I use a scale b/c I'm that kind of person. You just need some kind of way to measure how much feed you give each bird each day. I know when you start this they're not going to want to trap at all. So the first day they don't get fed unless they trap when called. Get a whistle and a big coffee can w/ lid for their feed. Shake the can and whistle to call them in. The 2nd day you may get a few bird's to come in and give those birds only as much as they can eat in 15 minutes. On the 3rd day most will get the message and trap when called. Same thing feed only what they will eat in 15 minutes. Eventually you will get them trapping really quickly but it's going to take some work. What I do is weigh out their feed - start at 1.25-oz per bird. What they don't eat after 15 minutes gets put back in the can and weighed. So say they only eat 1-oz per bird then that's what they get the next day. Only when they eat what you give them faster than 15 minutes will they get more but not til the next day. As they fly more and with road training will they start to eat more. I think it is very critical to control their feeding.

4. Road training. If your first race is September 1 then you should start road training August 1. Start at a mile in the direction of the first race release point. Release them at 7:00 - the time most races are released. Get back to the loft quick and whistle and shake the can but only give them 1/4 of their normal ration. Crate them up and take them right back and do it again - 1/4. Do it a third time and then give them the remainder of their feed and let them take a bath. Day 2 - take them 2 miles. Toss them twice - only 1/4 feed the first time. Day 3 - take them 5 miles toss 1 time and hereafter. On any toss where they all don't arrive at the same time or close to it - take them back again until they get it right. I would suggest that after 5 miles you go to 10, then 15, then 20, 25, 30, and then 40. You should be at 40 a week before the 1st race. The week before see if you can get one of the club guys to toss with you. Do at least a 40 mile or longer toss. This will help your birds break from the other guys. 

5. Where to toss. If you can get last years results then draw lines on a map from where the top flyers live to the release point. Look at your line in comparison. Find the middle and draw a line that is 40 miles from your loft. Now if there are prevailing winds you will need to allow for them but this what we call the breaking point. It's OK to train off the race course if that better suits you. If you go a certain direction to work then toss them in that direction. Try tossing the birds in a head wind. That way you don't need to go as far and it prepares them for that windy race day. However, on weekends I would toss them along the race course and try to work the break point.

6. Feed. I like barley a lot. I give my youngsters 40% barley to a 60% high protein race mix. If you can get Heritage Acres where you are, then give it a try. Malt barley from a home brew place is where I get mine. They sell me the odd lots so it's not too costly.

7. Grit. I give my birds a variety. Red cross is the base, then I add Natural pigeon grit, Natural red stone (they love that stuff), Natural pickstone, and then I sprinkle a bit of pink minerals on the red stone. The idea is to give them a bunch of options to satisfy there needs. This way too they won't go down on the ground to look for the minerals they're wanting.

8. Greens. Chop up some broccoli, lettuce, chard, whatever you've got in the frig and lightly salt it. Do this weekly. I'm using cilantro a lot now b/c it has a natural bacteria fighting ingredient - thanks Dano!.

9. Baths. Let them bathe weekly. I do it on Sundays. I use 20 Mule Team borax one week. Then the next week a capful of Ivomec sheep drench

10. Health. Keep your birds healthy. A healthy pigeon will outrace an unhealthy pigeon off the greatest champion lines. You need a health maintenance program. I use probiotics, apple cider vinegar, vitamins, garlic in a weekly program. Keep your birds free from lice and pigeon flies, too. Treat your birds for canker, and only use antibiotics when only absolutely necessary. Vaccinate for PMV, paratyphoid and pox.

11. C & D. Clean and Disinfect your loft. Scrape your loft daily. I like Belgium white chalk on the floor. It smells fresh and has something that makes the droppings scrape-up easier. Every month to 6-weeks disinfect your loft with bleach, Virkon-s, Nolvasan, or Insectrin-x. I like rotating these.

12. Bond with your pigeons. There was this guy in Houston that slept in his loft and he won a lot of races. You don't need to do that  but treat them like they're the precious creatures they are. Always be gentle with them. Move slowly around the loft. Handle them only when necessary. Always remember that it's their home that you are in. The better they feel about their home the faster they will race to get back.

Sorry for the long post. Hope this helps some.

birdy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Great information Birdy and Janine!

I agree about summer babies, we don't hatch here after May. They are usely "oops babies" from the get go, I mean there is only one or two of them, training them is not the problem, but getting them out at 6 to 8 weeks is, as our priorities have changed, so I spoil them and keep the one or two in, we don't let them out anymore as I had losses with late fliers in the past.

We lost one of our rescue babies in a hawk strike, their training was going very well and the age was perfect. Mikko returned, but Maxi is gone. Mikko had to be rehabbed after returning 2 days later, dried out, starved, and dehydrated. He is now a "pet" and doesn't go out. My other rescue baby, Frances, is homed, thank goodness.

Sorry if this sounds a little silly but we all know our birds by names, not numbers.

Treesa


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## chris purvis (Feb 23, 2004)

hey birdy, 

thanks again for the advice. i have a question though. if they dont come in when i call them, and i dont feed them that day is that alright. if they keep coming in late how long can they go without food? also wont scaring them to keep them flying for an hour make them not want to come back? thanks chris


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

Chris,

Good questions. Your birds can go a few days without feed. When birds are shipped in the mail they go without water and feed for at least 2 days. If you decide to adopt this training here's what I would do: since they are now trapping at 7:00 don't let them out until 6:00. Whistle and call them in at 7:00 and give them only what they will eat in 15 minutes - start timing when the first bird traps. If any trap late they don't get fed.

The flag will scare them when they first come down but they will come back when you drop the flag and call them in. At first, they may go perch somewhere else like the roof of your house or in a tree. Try to discourage this by throwing something at them. You're going to have a week or two of them wondering what's going on... but they will catch on and be better racers for it.

This may seem cruel but you will get them trained and disciplined. That way they can sustain a 300 mile race. Leaving them out all day just makes them a target for hawks or getting into bad habits and being a pest to someone.


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## chris purvis (Feb 23, 2004)

thanks again birdy. and please look at my other question in the racing pigeon section.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Several good pointshave been made on training. I myself though have not trained the short toss for several years. I after the bird hits the floor. wait one to two days. So it can find the feed and water settle in to the young bird side. Then push it threw the trap about four to six times. Then out on the landing board it goes. At first for say the first 6 to 8 days it will not be flying just watching the sky. Then the short loops and on to hitting the sky. After all the young are raised and then three months of loft flying They go down the road 20 to 25 miles. If they are not mature and smart enough at this age they weed there self out. BUT I have had very little loss to this method. Sure it seems safer to short toss. But a good bird comes home. No if and ands. A mile toss They can see the loft from there. But different people do different things that work for them. We could toss our birds the other direction of the races and still build there abilty. As youg bird races the first short races the birds drag each other back. Then past the 200 to 250 mile they spread out more. Still quality breeds quality. Do not have to be a 5000 dollar bird just a good dollar bird can do. Its in the breeding that brings out the better birds. And you can have really good birds But may just produce one that is the improvment for that year. We all breed culls. And then a few outstanding performers. From there we get better. So I advice take your time train and keep good records of who bred what. Your nine birds may surprise you. The old saying one good bird is better then ten or twenty fare birds. Just do not push this small team all out If you have say a 100 200 300 and they go thru this twice hold them to just the first set. And then rest them for your first old bird team. They will think you for it.


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## birdy (Mar 18, 2004)

RE,

I do the short tosses to teach them to trap fast. I've found that at a mile or two I can get back to the loft fast enough to call them in just after they hit. Do this enough times and they get in a really good habit. Before I did this they would sit in the trees or hang out on the landing board after the toss. My birds trap faster than greased lightning. My clubmates always go on about how a bird would have won the race if it would have trapped instead of doing victory laps or tree sitting. I've never had that problem since doing this short toss training. They zoom in, hit the landing board, and go thru the bobs - no messing about.

I used to jump them like you but I had a lot of losses. Like you said different people do different things that work for them - I respect that.

birdy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

That can work . At the end its the bird. They get nervous in the race sometimes and will sit a little after returning sometimes. My birds have set a tree befor they are in good shape then mostly fly then trap. But We all try to build an edge. Time is important . That is why alot of people have gone to many methods to gain that few seconds. Heard of red selby. goes back aways. He would push his birds to fly as close to dark as they could. Make them fly in the rain the snow. His old saying was if you see the wild pigeons flying yours should be flying too. He set many records for the time. Any edge that helps works .


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Responsible Racing*

As moderator of this forum, my first priority is for the well being of all pigeons.

I therefore am going to speak up about a method of training that has been brought up here.

I do not condone any method of training that jump starts young pigeons to great distances. This is not a proven method and lots of youngsters have been lost in the process. This method of "self culling" by sending youngsters out too far. ,as result in "weeding out" and only the "best flyers" return is to me an irresponsible and inhumane training method. 

This forum has an EMERGENCY SECTION for dealing with injuries, diseases, dehydration, and starvation, and anyone who needs help receives it. We spend hours of time helping needy birds, the very same birds lost in these training methods, as well as others . Isn't that ironic? We have professionals who give of their time and talent to resolve the most extreme conditions.

Please follow training methods that have been tried and proven. Birdy has an excellent training method for his pigeons that work, with very few losses. There are many others of you that may also have great training methods that have been tried and proven, that you may share. Please do not share any methods that can result in any forseen losses, because of jump starting.

We will soon have a information for everyone on file for responsible racing and will include nutrition and prevention programs for racing pigeons,( as well as homing pigeons, show pigeons, wedding release, "pets", and our noble ferals) that will provide optimum performance , as well give every pigeon the physical advantage for a safe return. These methods have all been tested and proven. 

Treesa


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What I posted on The tossing of the birds. Is in no way an unsafe method. If you would follow that program. You would see they are better trained then the short tosses. As they are older more mature. Have probably tripped/ ranged out that far. Because they have been allowed to mature more. My use of words self culling and such. Was geared towards an understanding. That we as pigeon breeders. should breed towards a quility of birds. Poor breeding brings big losses. Because putiing two birds together does not make the good birds. People sell paper and alot of it when it comes to racing homers. When truth is a pair of birds can not produce all good birds. Less birds are lost when you breed a sound program. Sure weather, and such brings losses. A 7 to 8 week old bird tossed a short distance can make it home. But many get lost. Race season it self needs a over haul. Most young birds are in a heavy moult when it starts. They have a problem getting home. Because they are missing flight and tail feathers. hampering there abilty to go the distance. We all have differnt methods. The old is the short toss Which is alot of road work that is not really a need if you understand your birds. I have seen so many people lose lage numbers there just because the birds were not old enough. Families of birds have a different age factor they mature to. And a over worked young bird will not make a good old bird. I have not met many that train my way. BUt i have met many that have great begining losses. change families because they do not win. get mad and quit because they just can not be on top all the time. every club has these people. But few hang in ther build afamily of birds that perform And improve. If some one would take just 5 of ther young birds . let them loft for 3 months befor they ever toss them . They would find them fit and more ready with less loss then the ones that were tossed at the early age. And the short one mile or five. The birds beat you home everey time. The 25 is just a sprint. because they had a chance to grow up some. I am not disagreeing with any one method as if it works great. Im just saying My way is very safe and responsble. If it was not I would not have done it. The one that is not is the paper selling that breeds poor birds at a big price. And how many of you have bought birds that have never helped you out got lost in the races. And was lead to believe they would be good. Just because a great grand father on a pedigree did good no makes the bird do good. But if the family line has produced winners all down thru the pedigree ther is a better chance of the bird being useful. It is hard for a beginer to start with good birds now days as the price is very high. And it used to be beginers was given or sold cheap good birds to start with To build there interst. And help them out right. But with time A person learns and can improve if they just have a little time to devote to. Sorry so long


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Just a note on training.....

Geography has a LOT to do with how far you can safely take your birds on a first toss.

I know a girl who can easily go 20-30 miles, since the area she lives in is flat as can be -- SHE can see that distance, and takes the birds to a landmark that can be seen from her loft.

We, on the otherhand, live in a very hilly area, and to make it worse, live in one of the valleys. We found that if we take the birds out to 1/2 mile first, at the top of the ridge, we give the birds that extra advantage of learning how to come out of a basket the first time, and easily find home -- it's just over the hill. To go out to 2 miles even puts them 3 hills away -- and it can take them literally hours to figure that one out. One toss at 1/2 mile on one ridge -- one at 1-1/2 miles in the opposite direction at the next ridge-- and they can safely go out to the 5 or 8 mile mark, and be expected to return quickly.

We also have a large lake at the 8 mile mark -- so after 2-3 tosses at the south side of the lake, we jump right over it, directly across -- to the 10 mile point. 2-3 tosses at that spot, and the birds are ready to go out to 20 miles. This method has proven for us to be very successful. Straight out to 20 miles, like the girl I know can do, would be disastrous for us (Tried it once, many years ago  )


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I can see where that would hamper training somewhat. I live in the flat lands. The plains. In the mountains and such may be some differance. I still think a little age and loft training. Is a key. As the homing instint builds from there first.


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