# Hardware Cloth Size for new loft



## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi everyone,

I am having some difficulty choosing the size of hardware cloth for the outside and bottom (under dirt) of my loft. Some people have told me that 1/2' x 1" is large enough for weasels to enter. Is that true? 

The other option which is much more expensive (since this is PVC coated) is 1/2x1/2". Curious to hear your opinions. Location is upstate NY.

Thanks,
Laura


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I would use the smallest and strongest that you can afford, it costs so much more to put things right at a later date.

Mine is 1/2 X 1/2, and mice get through that with no difficulty.

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

1/4" is the best.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Definetly positively without a doubt...1/4 hardware cloth!


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Thanks for all of your advice. 1/4"x1/4" really isn't feasible in this area due to the heavy snow loads in the winter. I think it would turn into a sheet of ice on the sides. I guess the question is, has anyone had anything other than mice enter into the 1/2x1/2" grid? I can put 1/4 under the dirt, but am having difficulty finding it in a really heavy gauge. The sides will be 16g.

Thanks,
Laura


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Also, what gauge of the 1/4" are you using? I would think any animal can chew through the 19g which is what I find most in the hardware stores when you go that small....

L


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Victor said:


> Definetly positively without a doubt...1/4 hardware cloth!



You really want to go with 1/4". If you don't, you'll wish you had, trust me. Our whole loft is made with it and we wouldn't have any other size. I'm not sure of the guage but I'll ask my husband. We bought some birds from a guy in NY and in the pics he sent us, his loft has the 1/4" wire on it all over. You shouldn't have a problem.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Laura, just asked my husband what gauge ours is and he didn't know but it is a heavy duty, 1/4". I honestly don't think snow would be a factor. We've had some pretty heavy snows even down here and I've never seen it freeze on the side. Of course, we do enclose both aviaries with plastic during the winter with heavy duty plastic but we have 4 doors on each side that we open and close each day depending on which way the wind is blowing. We've never had a problem with snow freezing even then.

With wire larger than 1/4" you run the risk of a predator like a raccoon sticking its claws through and trying to grab a pigeon and injuring it.

When you talk about anything going through the 1/2" other than a mouse, maybe a small snake, but a mouse is one of the most dangerous things that could get in because they carry so many diseases. 

You can always put 1/4" on top of the 1/2" for added strength and protection.


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Thanks again for all of your replies and info about the snow impact. As far as I have found in the stores and online, the 1/4" only comes in 19g which is very thin and not PVC coated which is what I plan to use for longevity (no rusting or weakening over time) and safety of the birds (protection from zinc toxicity). 

This is not a loft, but rather an aviary that is 24 feet x 10 feet situated right on the ground, so any predator can walk right up and chew through whatever screen is on the sides. I just don't trust the 1/4" with a gauge that thin. And the place that I am ordering it from doesn't make 1/4" that is PVC coated so I am in a quandry. Surely 19g under the ground would only last a year, if that, right?

Just curious what diseases have you encountered that have been transmitted from mice to your birds?

Thanks,
Laura


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhhhh, 1/4 inch is where-it's-at...

Otherwise, Mice, Snakes, and who knows what else just come right on through when it is 1/2 inch.

3/8ths inch, the small Mice get through, and the mid-size Mice get half-way through and get stuck there, wiggleing in agony till they die, then you have to either yank them out or get wire cutters. Not so good...

Make an eve or overhand of the roof if you are worried about Snow sticking to the sides of the mesh...or, if some Snow still adheres, it should not matter much. Better yet, make a good eve, and some Winter Side panels.

When I had an Aviary, which I built, it had mere chickenwire screening, but it also had Winter panels which I would put on when the season arrived. These were translucent corrugated fiberglass, in wooden frames, and kept the cold winds out and the wind driven rain out...worked very well, and I also had a heater in there for them.

I used to let them all out flying every day, so it was allright for them to have a snug little home like that for nights and for bad weather days...they still got all the fresh air and sunshine and excercise they wanted or needed being let out every day...and, with the panels on, it was pretty inside, there was light, just filtered is all...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I guess the question is, has anyone had anything other than mice enter into the 1/2x1/2" grid? 



Snakes can get in.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

EarthaPidge said:


> Thanks again for all of your replies and info about the snow impact. As far as I have found in the stores and online, the 1/4" only comes in 19g which is very thin and not PVC coated which is what I plan to use for longevity (no rusting or weakening over time) and safety of the birds (protection from zinc toxicity).
> 
> This is not a loft, but rather an aviary that is 24 feet x 10 feet situated right on the ground, so any predator can walk right up and chew through whatever screen is on the sides. I just don't trust the 1/4" with a gauge that thin. And the place that I am ordering it from doesn't make 1/4" that is PVC coated so I am in a quandry. Surely 19g under the ground would only last a year, if that, right?
> 
> ...


Salmonella can and probably will passed to birds in the mouse droppings. It's not so much the "mouse" but what it leaves "behind", pardon the pun.......LOL

We also have a chicken coop with an 8ft run that is covered with 1/4" hardware cloth. I have seen possums, foxes and racoons out there at night. Nothing has ever gotten in to our birds. (no chickens now, but there are pigeons with babies). If I thought for one second something could get to them, they wouldn't be in there.


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Okay, the company does make a 1/4" that is PVC coated (it costs a small fortune) but it is 23g. That just seems way too thin. Also, keep in mind I only have two flighted birds and a one-winged little guy, so he is the most vulnerable to anything.

L


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too, a lot depends on one's local climate, and local insects and small animals...

When I built my Aviary in 1980, here in Las Vegas, it was in a part of Town where I never once saw a Mouse. It was in the suburbs. I never even thought about Mice, and never had to! There were none.

Later, having moved, I moved the Aviary also, and soon started getting Snakes in there. The snakes did no harm, but would settle part way under a nesting Hen for armth, hich the hen would feel unsettled by and awkward with, as you may imagine!...and were m-a-y-b-e capable of eating a very small Baby or Egg at most, but never did as far as I know...but, we soon dismantled the Aviary anyway since we were about to move again.

Once I was in this spot, the Mice have always been a real problem, and, while I no longer have an Aviary, I have elected to make their quarenteen or convelescent Cages useing 1/4 inch mesh.


Areas which have flying biting insects, should probably have some fine screen, or fine screen placed over the wire mesh to keep them out.

Wind, cold Wind especially, Wind driven Rain, is not something one wants to have bothering one's Birds when they are stuck in an Aviary or Housed in some way. It is different for them when they are Wild or feral and they can elect a spot to wait out storms or cold Winds, or to enjoy them even, as some do! But the out of doors and the freedom to elect a spot is different from when they are stuck in some Aviary or similar...so, I think making some removable frames of Winter Panels to enclose the whole, makes sense for climes here one would want to keep the Aviary Birds protected from cold wind and wind driven rain and so on.


Ants can bother infants...as can other kinds of biteing insects and flys...

Mosquitos should be kept out if at all possible too of course.

Aviarys built 'up' on short legs, above the ground, whose legs are treated in some way or provided with down tilting collars which are treated with some Ant repelling chemicals, or by some means, provided with something for Ants to be discouraged from climbing, would be good if one is in an Ant area...

Different areas, climes, regions all have their particulars...

Ironically, there are endless Field Mice here in the downtown which is all concrete and asphalt and Business/commercial buildings !

Yet almost none in the suburbs!

Go figure...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

EarthaPidge said:


> Okay, the company does make a 1/4" that is PVC coated (it costs a small fortune) but it is 23g. That just seems way too thin. Also, keep in mind I only have two flighted birds and a one-winged little guy, so he is the most vulnerable to anything.
> 
> L



Depending on your Soil chemnistry, acidity, moisture, you might be able to use regular inexpensive mesh for embedding in the ground there, with the expectation of it lasting three or four years or so...maybe longer.

Otherwise, another method might be to dig footings, to below the frost line, and just make some barriers in them useing metal or wood...

I do not know what your Loft/aviary is intended to sit on, foundation wise...


If it is to be on four legs, it can have a solid bottom of some kind and then there is no need for mesh in the ground to prevent Voles or weasels from comeing 'up'...

If it can be on a slab, then the slab is the barrier...

Concrete is likely the best floor...

But even plywood, if it can be kept dry, and is elevated above the ground, is fine...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Thanks everyone and Phil for the info on snakes. We have tiny little snakes here, nothing that preys on something as large as a bird, but I don't want my one-winged guy being harassed by one of them, although he does pack a pretty strong wing slap when he means business! 

I plan to screen in the aviary during the winter and fall and put up wind barrier panels in the winter. They will also have a shed area at one end for shelter and where the heater will be placed. In the winter I will enclose them inside the shed area at night. I don't ever plan on breeding any of my rescued birds --I regularly pull out eggs right after they are laid even though my one-winged male cannot exactly balance on my female to get the job done. So far all eggs have been unfertilized.

I just measured the 1/2x1/2 inch grid and the openings are more like 3/8" after the PVC coating has been applied. Possibly the 1/2" grid with a stainless steel fine mesh screen to keep out the flying bugs on the inside might do the trick.

L


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi Phil,
We could not afford a concrete floor and opted for a natural earth floor so that earthworms and such could coexist with our birds. This is a professionally built barn with attached aviary with 8 footings situated well below the frostline and a retaining wall on one half to contain the bank fill. We are definitely putting a grid barrier under the gravel (there is a natural slate surface below that) as well as sod and sand in the areas that the birds spend most of their time. There will be electricity and automatic waterers since this structure is adjacent to our barn that already has those amenities. Drains will also be in place to facilitate cleaning of the closed in portion. It's so nice, frankly, I want to move in!

Anyway, thanks for all the great tips.

L


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Laura,

We had discussions about this on either this forum or on fprc. As far as I remember Helen established that a weasel's skull was too large to get through the 1/2 X 1/2. ut are our UK weasels the same size as yours?

Cynthua


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