# Sick pigeon with very bad smell from beak



## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

A friend's grandson brought this feral over to my place early evening. 
He said it hit their glass sliding door a couple of times, groggy he picked it up from the yard outside.
People say I look after pigeons??? Where did they get that idea from, I wonder???

Bird is younger, feels dehydrated, skinny as anything, VERY bad smell from beak, very dirty head feathers surrounding beak, like glue, wobbly on it's legs, tried to stand it up, falls over to side. Looks tired but looking around.
I offered some water and it drank o.k.
Is now wrapped up in a towel inside a box in a dark place. Nice and warm...it's been a hot 35 degrees day anyway today....
Just checked on it, still sitting there, never moved a bit, eyes respond to the torch light, still breathing.......have a bad feeling it might not make it though......wonder if it had something to eat or drink it shouldn't have had.

What are you're thoughts on this one?
Sorry the pics are not 100% sharp....taken in a hurry.
Cheers


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

Here is what we've done over the past hour...

I gave it Metronidazole and it also drank more water when I offered the bowl.
Otherwise just sitting in the towel, not moving.

Time to go to bed...I try to check up on it later......


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Metronidazole sounds like the best thing right now. It is very likely the bad smell is indicating canker.


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

To my surprise it was sitting up this morning!! 

Very weak, had heaps of water with added salt and sugar, had it's meds and a feed. I break up the peas and dog sausage pieces real small, it has trouble swallowing, sometimes twisting the head sideways while the pieces go down.
But it's working o.k. 
Overall I could get a much better look at the bird today........the wee feathers around it's beak and down the breast part are stuck together and crusted with I don't know what.....

Poo in large white patches which looks like paint......and some soft but thick blue/green sausage-like droppings.

So far so good.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Rosie,

Sorry, I've been so busy with my rescues , I haven't had a chance to check in lately....so, so sorry!

That little guy is so cute- looks like a baby just out of the nest? I have one here too that is too weak to fly but seems to be improving after 3 days of hand feeding (tiring isn't it?) ....god, I love baby birds, I think life's worth living just to have baby birds around

I agree that treating with the metronidazole is the best thing to do for starters. But please don't rule out the possibility of yeast infection of the crop ..I made that mistake with a baby pigeon just before winter, and I lost the poor little thing because I treated for canker and bacterial infection only. Yeast can produce a sticky slime like you described, and it can smell bad. 

All you need to take care of yeast is to go to the chemist and buy `Nilstat'. It comes with a handy 1 1/2 ml syringe, and you can give somewhere between 0.2ml-0.5ml with the metronidazole each day. Its ok to use it as a precaution.

Finally, when you have nilstat, it would be worth adding Sulfa -3 along with the metronidazole and nilstat. That will rule out the third cause of smelly-breath, which is bacterial infection. I use these 3 medicines together almost routinely now, and I've never had any problems...the combination seems mild enough for even the sickest of birds to tolerate, and it treats a huge range of common illnesses.

PS. Great work with keeping him hydrated & nourished- it makes a huge difference doesn't it?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have you checked down his throat? See any yellowish patches down there? Although you can't always see canker. Do you have a heating pad you could keep him on, set on low, with a small towel over it? Don't keep him too dark, or he won't eat as well.


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

I just gave him 0.3ml of Nilstat. He is in his pet carrier box and standing up at the moment, last night he couldn't stand at all.
It's 34 degrees now and I placed the box outside in the shade. 
No need to worry, it's a very secure place. 
I have not got a heating pad, I've got one of these rubber hot water bottles, which I can place underneath him when I get home from work.
Will that be o.k.?

I will give him the Sulfa together with the Metronidazole later in the day.

I make sure he has a drink on a regular basis. He does not seem to have an appetite, doesn't like to be fed at all, trying to hold his head sideways to avoid me feeding him.

He would be the fifth pigeon I was fortunate to look after, I'm quiet confident in the feeding technique.
I remember, just over a year ago I tried to feed for the first time ever, I just about had a heart attack, I was so scared of doing something wrong......


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

I have liquid (Inca Brand) Sulfa 3 and added the recommened dosage to the daily drinking water.
In the case of this pigeon however I like to administer the Sulfa directly.
Can anyone assist on the dosage I have to use please.
Bird weighs ~200 - 220g.
Thanks


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Rosie,

I normally give sick birds, weighing around 200-250 grams, 0.1ml (ie two drops) of Sulfa-3 , twice a day. Sulfas can make the bird feel sick, so its best to dose no more than 0.1ml at a time.


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

Just finished giving the Sulfa and the Metronidazole for tonight.
Not looking good, still drinking, but eating is a real problem.
As weak as it is, it's still fighting against me when I try to open it's beak to put in the pieces of sausage.
It suddenly throws it's head back and then the head falls down to rest on the towel in my lap and then it throws the neck sideways......never seen anything like that before..........a couple of times I was certain it's going to die now......
I did not want to stress it too much at the moment, it only had 5 pieces of food now.
Done much better this morning. Again, I fear for the worst.
It had all the meds now, it would be such a shame if it were too late.
Again, so far so good, will see in the morning.
It's now resting on a hot water bottle filled with mild temp water and wrapped in a towel.
I better let it rest for now.
Cheers


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Rosie,

I totally know how scary that feels, you poor thing. Has she been passing any droppings since you had her? The strange behaviour you described may be a sign of her little body beginning to shut down, which is always so terrifying & horrible to see  

At this point, she may not be able to digest solid food, so you could try syringing a warm, watery mix of weetbix next time you feed her, if you have it ? When they get very sick like this, its a real tightrope between nourishing them, but not loading them with more calories than their system can process..

Anyway I hope she makes it the night! Its good that's she's warm. The last thing you could do for her before sleep time is give her some more water.


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

Sadly she didn't make it.
Gotta put her in a nice spot out in the field in the morning.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that Rosie! 
I've never been able to save them once their bodies begin to shut down either; its really tough when they get to that stage. I expect they need fairly advanced care at that point, such as IV fluids and nutrition, but who knows if even that would turn them around? I thought you attended to her needs very well and she was lucky to have found you. Not many wild birds get to pass away in safety and comfort.

Hugs to you!

X Bel


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Rosie,
> 
> I normally give sick birds, weighing around 200-250 grams, 0.1ml (ie two drops) of Sulfa-3 , twice a day. Sulfas can make the bird feel sick, so its best to dose no more than 0.1ml at a time.


Metronidazole can make them vomit also, so better to feed before giving them the med, so they have something in their stomach. If it still makes them sick, you can give a drop of pepto bismul before the meds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry she didn't make it. You tried.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Metronidazole can make them vomit also, so better to feed before giving them the med, so they have something in their stomach. If it still makes them sick, you can give a drop of pepto bismul before the meds.


Hi Jay,

I haven't yet had anyone vomit up metronidazole or flagyl but I was wondering if its wise to put food into a bird that may vomit it back up again when you give it meds? I only ask because most instructions for worming medication advise not feed before medicating, for up to 24 hours, because the chance of vomiting (and aspiration) is high with wormers. Would the same logic apply to metronidazole I wonder? Not that I think its practical to withhold food from a dying bird, mind you. I would rather dose on the low side than with hold food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> I haven't yet had anyone vomit up metronidazole or flagyl but I was wondering if its wise to put food into a bird that may vomit it back up again when you give it meds? I only ask because most instructions for worming medication advise not feed before medicating, for up to 24 hours, because the chance of vomiting (and aspiration) is high with wormers. Would the same logic apply to metronidazole I wonder? Not that I think its practical to withhold food from a dying bird, mind you. I would rather dose on the low side than with hold food.


Bella, when you give them the food first, it normally will stop them from getting sick on the med. Same as when people take some meds with food. Dosing too low is of no use, and can build a resistance to the med. Your opinion and the opinion of my vet differs. I'll go with her opinion.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I have read that some 'forms' of metronidazole can cause vomiting. But the newer preparations (coated tablets and liquid) don't. I use both of these forms and have never had a problem with vomiting whether I fed them before or after.
The vomiting issue is more with the older/raw form of metronidazole.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I have read that some 'forms' of metronidazole can cause vomiting. But the newer preparations (coated tablets and liquid) don't. I use both of these forms and have never had a problem with vomiting whether I fed them before or after.
> The vomiting issue is more with the older/raw form of metronidazole.



Yes Waynette, the coated tablets help this, but not everyone is using the coated tablets. I only said that it would be better to give it after feeding them for this reason. It does help and isn't a hard thing to do. Feed a little, then medicate.

Also, it doesn't always make them vomit. It can sometimes though, so just easier to give some food first.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, when you give them the food first, it normally will stop them from getting sick on the med. Same as when people take some meds with food.



Regarding with-holding food prior to giving meds that cause regurgitation, it is not my random ,personal opinion that you should do this. Like I mentioned, this information is from the manufacturer instructions for most common worming meds ...avitrol plus, levimisole, praziquantel etc. 

It is also recommended to give Spartrix, another canker medication, on an empty stomach because of possible regurgitation. 

According to a quick google, in humans metronidazole should be given on an empty stomach too. 

http://www.drugs.com/metronidazole.html

So I'm not sure why your vet thinks it should be given right after food? Not all vets are right all of the time. EDIT: I am only wondering, not necessarily contradicting you.




> Dosing too low is of no use, and can build a resistance to the med. Your opinion and the opinion of my vet differs. I'll go with her opinion.


When I said I dose on the low side, I meant within the prescribed range for metronidazole (as metronidazole can be dosed anywhere between 50mg/kilo and 200mg/kilo body weight, according to various avian formularies). I was taught to dose on the low side, around 10 mg per 200 gram bird twice a day, and it has worked for me so far.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

It's best to follow the manufacture's instructions for each med. Some are better absorbed on an empty stomach, some with food. Cephalexin is famous for nausea/vomiting, so now their is another med one can give prior to cephalexin to counter that side effect. Metronidazole has a very wide safety margin. I use 'Pigeon Cote Medical Formulary' for my dosing, which for metronidazole is 50-100mg per adult bird (pigeon), they don't even state a weight. So I go on the conservative side and give them 1/4 of a 250mg tablet (62.5mg) once a day, then I'll cut that down for a smaller/baby bird. Testing in some countries have shown that giving a bird a single dose of 200mg kills canker.......but I feel uncomfortable doing that, so I don't. I only use liquid metro for tiny babies whereas the dose is more accurate.


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

Well, no time for mourning, got my next patient.
Please refer to http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f30/need-help-amp-tips-with-sick-wild-galah-57963.html

From what I observed with this little very sick pigeon which died was.... in the end it spit out some food pieces..........if I would have given the meds straight after the food, the meds would have been thrown out as well, rendering them ineffective and wasted.
I rather have the very sick bird keep it's meds down, which to me is more likely on an empty stomach, especially on the first day of help, if life is really on the balance....if it's strong enough and lucky to be still alive the next day, feeding would then be first on my list.

When a bird is caught early enough before it's almost dead, then perhaps its better to give on a filled stomach, if manufacturer advises to do so.

Cheers


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some meds are given on an empty stomach because they simply work better that way. Some it doesn't have to be on an empty stomach. Bella, we aren't talking about worming meds, which work better on an empty stomach, I was referring to Metronidazole. Why this thread has turned into a discussion on whether to feed first or not, I don't know. I simply said that feeding first before giving the Metronidazole often helped. And it does. So if you don't like to do that, than don't.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If you have a bird that is vomiting food, meds whatever...it really helps to give the bird a drop of pepto bismo, 15 minutes before giving food or meds.Usually, the pepto stops the vomiting. However,speaking of *metronidazole*, if you don't have the coated varitey, which reduces vomiting and you don't have any pepto bismo, giving it with food also reduces the likelihood of vomiting...at least this is my experience after a thousand birds or more.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's an interesting article on how birds digest food. I think it may be relevant to the off topic discussion in this thread.

http://www.essortment.com/digestive-system-birds-49064.html


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I use metronidazole in the form of `fishzole', mixed up with maple syrup, so I guess its `uncoated'? I never have experienced regurgitation from fishzole , thank goodness! 

Do you guys really get a lot of regurgitation from metronidazole then? What kind of dosages are you talking about?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Thanks for the info about pepto bismo. We don't get that here in Australia, unfortunately. I will look for something similar though.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I use 'Pigeon Cote Medical Formulary' for my dosing, which for metronidazole is 50-100mg per adult bird (pigeon), they don't even state a weight. So I go on the conservative side and give them 1/4 of a 250mg tablet (62.5mg) once a day, then I'll cut that down for a smaller/baby bird. Testing in some countries have shown that giving a bird a single dose of 200mg kills canker.......but I feel uncomfortable doing that, so I don't. I only use liquid metro for tiny babies whereas the dose is more accurate.


Dear Waynette,

I am not very confident in the pigeon cote online formulary, personally. Some of the dosages they prescribe per bird, are actually meant per kilo body weight. I believe the prescribed dosages for metronidazole there are too high, but you are right, it has a wide safety margin fortunately.


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## kulaworld (Jan 21, 2011)

Found this re: Pepto Bismol = Bismuth Subsalicylate
Properties and side effects

http://www.sydneycompounding.com/medications/bismuth-subsalicylate


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> I use metronidazole in the form of `fishzole', mixed up with maple syrup, so I guess its `uncoated'? I never have experienced regurgitation from fishzole , thank goodness!
> 
> *Do you guys really get a lot of regurgitation from metronidazole then?* What kind of dosages are you talking about?


Never had a problem with it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

We're talking about one drop here. It won't hurt him.


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