# Smoky (Sy) combined with white-side (grizzle-G)



## Dutchwitschild (Feb 7, 2009)

I want to breed black whiteside Dutch Highfliers with a flesh colored beak. I want to know if anyone has experience with the following. Is it possible to breed a black-rosewing or black-whiteside (so with the factor grizzle) and also a flesh-colored beak (so with the smoky-factor)? 
I started with this couple (see picture) The youngsters from this couple were obvious black, had a dark beak and had almost no white feathers (at most one or two). 
These youngsters paired back on smoky-black gave youngsters with a few white feathers. But till now, these feathers are always on the back and not on the shield, where I want them.
Knows someone varieties that have both factors grizzle as well as smoky ? Examples? Thanks !


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Im thinking you will need a whitesided male bird to get yourself some white sided babies , I myself prefer the dark beaks to the fleashy colored ones too especially with the pearly eye color on them. I must say though that they are very pretty birds that you have there .


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Beautiful! You have the right plan, you just need to perfect them by selective breeding. Smokey is recessive, so that is why the babies have black beaks. But they are carrying the gene, so mating them back to the smokey bird will give you more clear beaks.


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Is that solid Black in the Photo with the Clean beak a Cock or a Hen & what Type of Strain or Breed is it…?… If it’s a Cock, I would mate it with a yellow Whiteside (WS) hen and then start some Inline breeding with the young back to that Black with the Clean beak and work from there… I did that with Yellow & Black NY Flying Flights to get better deeper colors in my Yellows and they would have both Yellows and Blacks young and then I did Inline breeding with the Yellows, But in my case I was working for better deeper colored yellows, But they did have a few Beautiful looking Blacks with Clear beaks and a few with a slight touch beak… In your case you would work with the Blacks with clean beaks if any…?… I hope this gives you maybe some Ideas… I think, and this is only my Opinion that working With that Solid black you have with clean beak with Yellow “WS” is a better and shorter route then using Black “WS” with Black beaks or Red Whitesides…!


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## Dutchwitschild (Feb 7, 2009)

Thank you all for your kind answers. 
PigeonVilla: Why do you think I have to use a whitesided male bird. I don’t think it is important if you use a male or female to get whitesides. This gene is not on sex-linked. You have other thoughts about it?
MaryOfExeter: To get clear beaks is not the problem. To get clear beaks with the factor whiteside is the problem. I want to know why the white feathers do not appear on the shield, but on the back. (see quick pics) You cannot see, but this hen has a "clean" beak. 
Pigeonmumbler:
I already did try a Smoky-black man with a yellow mottle hen. But first: the mottle on yellow or red is not the same factor as the mottle on black. And in my case the yellows have no smoky-factor at all, so all the youngsters had a black beak. I think that both yellow and black NY Flying Flights have a smoky factor. I looked at internet but I did not found a Domestic show flight that both 1. was a teager, 2. has a black colored head, 3. has a clean beak. 
If I found one then I am sure it is possible. 
I keep trying anyway……….


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The white backed birds look like normal piebalds. Mottles like you want are tiger grizzle I think. Are you wanting solid white wings, or just the mottled look on the wings? I think your best bet is to get more whitesides like you want, whether they are recessive red or yellow, or any other color. Once you get slate whitesides, then you can work on getting them into black specifically.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Dutchwitschild said:


> Thank you all for your kind answers.
> PigeonVilla: Why do you think I have to use a whitesided male bird. I don’t think it is important if you use a male or female to get whitesides. This gene is not on sex-linked. You have other thoughts about it?
> MaryOfExeter: To get clear beaks is not the problem. To get clear beaks with the factor whiteside is the problem. I want to know why the white feathers do not appear on the shield, but on the back. (see quick pics) You cannot see, but this hen has a "clean" beak.
> Pigeonmumbler:
> ...


Dutchwitschild, 

It should be possible to combine whiteside, spread blue/black and smoky.

How many young have you bred from the black self cock and the mottle/whiteside hen? 

My suggestion would be to stabilise the whiteside gene on the black phenotype. When you have homozygous whiteside, cross to the smoky black, this should give you a percentage of mottled blacks which can then be selectively bred to regain the whiteside pattern along with the smoky. 

Here is a link to some photos of Domestic Flights, a grizzle/tiger bird with a darkish head does have a flesh-coloured beak.

http://www.newyorkcombine.com/pdf/2006_Young_Bird_Show.pdf


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Dutchwitschild, I noticed in your photos that you have other solid Blacks with clean flesh beaks,,, White Strain or Breed are those birds…??? and do they come in other colors....???


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## Dutchwitschild (Feb 7, 2009)

Thank you Indigobob. You have proved to me that it is possible.
Why doing this all? In old Dutch books is written, that the breeders in Holland wanted a clean beak on all varieties of the Dutch Highflyer (DHF), just like on the black Old-Dutch Tumbler (see Pic.1) . They had never success. They had success with the black self colored DHF, not with the white-sides. And I want to know why not….
In 2011 this will be the next step I make:
I have a black self colored brother (see pic.2 and 4) of the hen with the white back. In its genes it should have some Grizzle or Mottle too (not visible). I think it already has a double sy-(smoky) factor. This bird I mate back with a Black Whiteside Dutch Highflyer hen (see pic.3). The youngsters will all have a dark beak again (but 50% sy in their genes too!!). I hope they will also get some white feathers on the shield. And then after a few years I have the desired result: A white-side DHF with a clean beak just like the old Dutch breeders wanted…………………. 
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. All The Best from Dutchwitschild


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what a awsome project...


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