# Young Homer



## newday (Dec 12, 2004)

Interesting pattern Young homer from Andalusian cock and Lemon hen.


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## TylerBro (Mar 14, 2011)

cool marking lets hope they say


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That's undergrizzle  Very pretty example too!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

newday said:


> Interesting pattern Young homer from Andalusian cock and Lemon hen.


*Hi LInk,Very intersting ,I have a small screen on my computer so it gets differcult for me to get a true feel for color at times.What I believe is happing here is the spred has been blocked in the primery flights, by perhaps the extream diilute of the lemon hen. If this bird is a cock he should pass the dilute to his hen young,as he should be carring the gene forextream dilute. * GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have never heard of dilute or extreme dilute having a partial blocking effect on pigment in the flights. I would have thought it was undergrizzle and maybe the indigo (if present) which reduces pigment is more likely to be the reason this bird has such an extreme expression of undergrizzle, but that is just speculation, There is clearly undergrizzle in the mix here though


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

can you post pic's of the parents? would love to see them.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Nice bird.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It looks like an extreme expression of undergrizzle to me too. This bird is definitely not indigo. Lemon split cocks (if this bird is a cock) will not have such an expression either as far as I know.

I have no idea why the undergrizzle is so extreme, but a look at the parents might help...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Rudolph, You say the bird is definitely not indigo and are most probably right but how can you be sure. I have seen Andalusians with little to no andalusian effect, I thought Indigo + spread required a lot of selection to look like an andalusian, I have not had any experience with the genes myself but a friend of mine seems to think some of his andalusians almost look like blacks. I have seen some in his loft, Maybe they are not andalusian after all but he sure does have a lot of andalusians and they seem to vary a lot.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

ok to me it doesn't look andalusian either, i thought andalusian were spread but had a blueish type color on wing shield and a some what darker head, to me this bird looks black yet has a lighter color outline on its feathers as well as the under grizzle. just my opinion..


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

like these guys


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> ok to me it doesn't look andalusian either, i thought andalusian were spread but had a blueish type color on wing shield and a some what darker head, to me this bird looks black yet has a lighter color outline on its feathers as well as the under grizzle. just my opinion..


your correct it doesn't look andalusian, But I have seen andalusians before that show little of the effect, Maybe too many bronzes in the mix, We all know good blacks with lots of bronzes don't make such good andalusians.

In the photos your first bird is andalusian, showing an average expression of the gene combination.

The second too, I am unsure if the last one is even a blue based bird, it is certainly not your traditional, blue bird with one dose of indigo and spread. The second bird looks like a homozygous Indigo - Spread. Some people refer to them as light phase andalusian but they do not fit the show standard set out for andalusian birds and are not technically andalusian, Not here in NZ anyway and we model ourselves on the USA NPA

Has the last one even moulted into its adult plumage?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I disagree with the statement that spread indigo can look like plain spread. No matter how much bronze is in the mix, bronzes just smut up the blue of andalusians, giving bronze-ish ghost pattern mostly. Indigo spread does have a range o expression, that is true, but I have never seen one that looks like a proper black. Anyone have a picture of such a bird? Evan?

The last 2 birds in horseheart4u's post both look like both homozygous indigo spread to me.

I really do not think the undergrizzle bird in question on this thread is indigo. Maybe homozygous undergrizzle looks like that (I've never seen one)? Maybe a combination of undergrizzle and some unknown bronze?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I would disagree with such a statement too, Who said Indigo can look like plain spread... certainly was not me..... What I said was I thought Indigo Spreads could *almost* look like blacks. 
As you have said, Indigo - spreads do have a range of expression and some are more black looking than others. That's all I was pointing out.

I agree though this bird is clearly undergrizzle.

So you agree the first bird of horseart4u's birds is andalusian, the last two are clearly not. The last one may be indigo spread but it looks like something else is in the mix too, Rec Opal maybe.


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

the last pic looks like it maybe a ash spread.(ash-red with spread)


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

OK these aren't my birds, i should have said something in the post, i got these pic's off slobberknockers lofts website and he has them listed as andalusions, here is the link, they are listed under indigos also.
http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/indigo.htm


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Spread indigo phenotype has considerable variation dependant on the madifying factors present. 
The homer certainly isn't spread indigo, the three posted by horseart4u are spread and indigo, perhaps not a "standard" expression.
I have never bred a spread indigo, however dark the phenotype, that could be mistaken for spread blue/black.
This year I have bred three sibling heterozygous indigo, heterozygous spread and probably chequer, the dark white-flight, I would surmise is heterozygous e.
Father:


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

so the four you just posted ( very beautifukl by the way )are indigo or andalusian? how can you tell them apart then or are they the same?


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

horseart4u said:


> so the four you just posted ( very beautifukl by the way )are indigo or andalusian? how can you tell them apart then or are they the same?


Thanks; they are all spread hetrozygous indigo - andalusian.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

indigobob said:


> Thanks; they are all spread hetrozygous indigo - andalusian.


Just to clarify indigobob's statement. Andalusian is a the name for a certain combination of gene expressions (a phenotype). An andalusian is genetically a bird which has both the spread gene (in heterozygous or homozygous state) as well as the indigo gene (in heterozygous state). In shorthand I usually write *S//? In//in+*.

In other words, all andalusians have the indigo gene, but all birds which have the indigo gene cannot be called andalusian.

Birds with two copies of the indigo gene are _never_ called andalusian. They have a completely different phenotype.

I prefer to stay away from the names of phenotypes, since it gets confusing. As it does in this case.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> so the four you just posted ( very beautifukl by the way )are indigo or andalusian? how can you tell them apart then or are they the same?


As Rudolph has said, There is no case of indigo or andalusian, If they are andalusian they HAVE to be het indigo.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

well i am still really not understanding the HOMOZYGOUS / HETEROZYGOUS thingy i know one means PURE the other mean NOT PURE?? so a true andalusian looks like these but can still have indigo am i reading this right or vice versa?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Homozygous means they have two doses of a gene on that locus so they are pure for that trait, Heterozygous means they have one dose. A bird with one dose in Indigo in combination with spread causes an Andalusian, A bird with two doses of Indigo and spread causes a bird to look like the second bird in the pics you have posted. An andalusian is a name for a bird that is Het Indigo and spread. ALL ANDALUSIANS HAVE INDIGO. That is what creates the phenotype on a black bird, Otherwise the bird would just be black


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Pigeonrh said:


> the last pic looks like it maybe a ash spread.(ash-red with spread)


Homozygous indigo can mimic ash red, especially without spread, and if the bird also has some bronze in it or if heterozygous rec. red then the **** indigo spread blue mimics spread ash very well also.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

My opinion of the orig. bird in question is under grizzle being over expressed in juvenile feathers because of a nutritional deficiency when those feathers were in mid development stage. Notice how the tail feathers are narrower at the whitened area and the flights are shorter than normal.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

That is a good point tmaas, but I have never seen a nutritional deficiency cause such an effect... A sure way to tell whether there was a nutritional deficiency in the development stages would be to look at the feathers closely for the tell-tale stripes on the feather. Maybe newday could post close-up pictures of the tail?

Whatever the reason, mating this bird back to a parent (or to a plain blue bar) would be the next step in determining what is going here.


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