# Pigeon Peddlers/Merchants



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I stay away as far away as possible from them! Been ripped off one too many times in the past.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about this. 

There are many good people in the pigeon world, as well as those who are in it for the money only, and unfortunately the victims are the birds and buyers.


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## Char-B Loft (Dec 28, 2008)

My best pigeons have been given to me as gifts....


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It's unfortunate that there are people like this. Money can make people do strange things. However, there are still good people who care more about helping someone free of charge than making a dollar off that same person.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Without those sort of people we wouldn't have any one to dislike, then where would we be? We would all have to live a happy life, no stress, nothing. And where would the fun be in that?
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hey....what did I miss ? Did you respond to one of those ads in the back of a magazine which promised great pigeons for $50 each ?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I wasn't lured by the ad. I lost money on birds that were "proven". And when I received the birds, I tried them out. And much to my surprise, they were not worth the time I had invested. Also, it saddens me to hear about pigeon peddlers who will peddle any pigeon, just to make a buck.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Far more often in the racing pigeon world. As many invest in high dollar birds And then raise many just to sell and make profit. Now peddlers are good To have as many take the unwanted birds For free or small price. Then they resale at a small price to people wanting a pigeon. This helps because those birds would have more then likely been destroyed by there owners. PEDDIGREES sale. And sale for many dollars to find the bird was a paper toger in a way. As has been said many times just a small number are good. BEST to buy from a person that produces a race record of the bird. And in any young birds Race birds You are taking a gamble when buying. But really peddlers are a need. Not the ones that hide as breeder /racers. But the old peddler that goes to swap meets and moves the birds the owners no longer wants.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Buyer Always Beware*

I am not going to defend these so called pigeon merchants or peddlers. They are what they are.....I don't see any difference between them, and let's say an automobile dealer, a real estate salesperson, a stock broker, or an employer. Or anyone else out there that is offering goods and services in exchange for money. 

A person who can get "ripped off" by a pigeon merchant, most likely has not been any better at negotiating for any other product or service, a starting salary or bonus with his employer, or for that matter, a bed time with the kids. One can easily say that every business out there is "greedy" and just doing it for the money. Even people who work for a nonprofit, do not generally work for free.

At the end of the day, when you purchase something, you should go in with your eyes open, and understand what is being offered, the terms, the conditions, and what if any assurances and/or guarantees are being made. Some purchases such as real estate, must be in the form of a contract. Know your seller, understand the terms, and if you are in over your head then bring in professional help, such as an attorney, CPA, or other expert related to your purchase.

If you are a novice to car buying for example, what should you do ? You take your uncle who is a mechanic with you, you research the make and model you are considering buying, the prices they sell for in the market place, you obtain a warranty, etc. etc. and perhaps let your cousin Tony from Jersey do the talking. 

Same with buying racing pigeons in the market place. If you are a novice in this regard, then you should consult with, and seek advice from your mentor, and do the same due diligence you would in making other purchases. 

Being able to acquire birds better then what you currently own, is all part of the game. Far as I know, there is no reliable "how to" guide out there available. Those who have demonstrated reliably how to actually find, and acquire World Class stock, have not as far as I know, shared their secrets with the world. Only salespeople peddling books, tapes, DVD's, subscriptions, etc have ever come forth.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2010)

what always gets me is how people are spending so much money on so called proven birds that are already down 3 generations of other birds just bred for stock and never flown.. they always claim they bred them so many winners if that so why are they selling these birds at all and why dont they list all those winners they have bred from them with band numbers and pedigrees to back it up not just names of birds that won 10 years ago.. all I see are names listed on pedigrees that are 5 generations back that had placed in a race or two.. even with that your taking a chance as they can touch those up too but how can so many people be selling so many winning birds all the time ,I mean come on how many birds are winners in a year  All I really see is lots of people buying birds that have won a race or come close then breed from those and try to sell off all the offspring from such birds without any race history of ther own. You really do have a better chance of getting good birds thru people that are well known flying in the clubs and actually flying their birds.. why take chances on any one else but thats just my two cents


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

WARREN i was not defending them. But one section is a nessary evil. Those are the peddlers whos sell the 2 .5 10 birds to people wanting a pigeon. Those peddlers keep thousands of birds each year from being KILLED by there owners that have no purpose for them. THe peddlers Most often racing pigeon peddigree peddlers Are in a different class they sell HOPE to unsupecting flyers hoping to get good birds. To find out they are getting that All they got was a pretty pedigree and a bird with feathers. NOW how can this stop. It wont as long as there is someone that BUYS. birds for breeding should have some kind of race record Then and only then do you know you may have a chance . Then young birds the parents race record is all you can trust. AND there are BIG named people who sell many a pedigree FOR a decent price And the bird was no good for breeding. Kind of like the lottery. people who raise show birds Well the buyer most often can see if the bird is a good one race birds no sighn Just trust and chance.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

re lee is right. Why would there be the pigeon merchants if there was not a buyers' market to make money off of? Same thought would cross your mind when you're watching television. A commercial pops up for a God-awful product and you say to yourself "Gosh, what a stupid contraption! Who would buy such a thing!" On the other side of the country, someone says "Wow, what a useful thing to have! I must get mine!" Without the buyers, there are no merchants to make money.

On a related note, during a conversation with a friend the other day, he suggested the races today are "watered-down" because of the quality of the birds competing. Too many birds that would otherwise be canned are in the races because the owners know no better. Would a race be more quality-centered if only the top 10 birds from each loft is flown? Or it can be a free for all. All birds regardless of quality, as long as they possess the two proper identification are permitted to compete in the world's greatest air marathon. 

Perhaps selection has taken a dip? For me, I would love to spend a day, or have an expert selector/breeder come and evaluate my birds.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In a way Some people think if they send more birds to a race they get the drag and have a better chance to get the win. People think many ideas. But really ten good birds are better then 50 so so birds on winning.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> WARREN i was not defending them. But one section is a nessary evil. Those are the peddlers whos sell the 2 .5 10 birds to people wanting a pigeon. Those peddlers keep thousands of birds each year from being KILLED by there owners that have no purpose for them. THe peddlers *Most often racing pigeon peddigree peddlers Are in a different class they sell HOPE *to unsupecting flyers hoping to get good birds. To find out they are getting that All they got was a pretty pedigree and a bird with feathers. NOW how can this stop. It wont as long as there is someone that BUYS. *birds for breeding should have some kind of race record Then and only then do you know you may have a chance .* Then young birds the parents race record is all you can trust. AND there are BIG named people who sell many a pedigree FOR a decent price And the bird was no good for breeding. Kind of like the lottery. people who raise show birds Well the buyer most often can see if the bird is a good one race birds no sighn Just trust and chance.



Switch to race horses for a moment....say a very famous race horse which syndicates for I don't know $50 Million...with a stud fee of $500,000...pretend this race horse is the best winning racer in years....what are the owners selling for that stud fee ? Hope ! 

Back to racing pigeons....purchase a National Ace from Europe...for $25,000 or $50,000 or $100,000 what are you buying ? Hope ! Buy a Combine winner from your friend for $50, what are you buying ? Hope ! The more evidence of quality, as in more races won, and more Champions in the family tree, the better the odds, and typically the better price it will bring the owner. 

What is my point ? Anytime you purchase a racing pigeon with the intent of breeding from it, you are buying hope. The point I have tried to make over the years on these pages, is attempting to buy honest to goodness "good" racing pigeons, is a very difficult proposition. There are not that many out there. The greater the winnings, the greater the precieved quality, the greater the price, the harder to obtain. 

Perhaps you own what has been a great pair for you, and which has produced a number of club winners for you. You sell that pair for X number of dollars or Euro's and the next owner breeds a couple of rounds and enters them in some national races or some One Loft events, and they don't win. The new owner says those birds are junk. Who is correct ? Did the new owner get ripped off ? Was the seller dishonest ? Maybe the seller was honest, and the pair did produce some winners when flying on the short end, againest a few hundred birds, when the wind blew just right. 

The reality just might be, that if you purchase a dozen different birds, and one of them turns out to be a "good" one, those are perhaps the odds you are up againest. Any day of the week, purchase 100% of all the pigeons sold on iPigeon, and then put them into their own special loft. Breed from them and then race them. If you get 5% of them that produce "good" birds, that just might not be too bad. 

If this were not true, then certain famous stud lofts who own Million $$ inventory, would be winning huge amounts of One Loft events. But, they are not doing it, in spite sending huge numbers of birds to numerous events, but sooner or later, one will hit, and that bird is shown on the cover of RPD.

Only two ways I know how to end up with better racing pigeons. #1 Breed one out of your breeding loft #2 Acquire better stock to improve your colony
The challenge with #1 is it takes a long time even if you are highly skilled. The challenge with #2 is it also takes much skill, luck, and often $$$ unless your birds are of such poor quality, that many of your friends have better and give you some. 

If someone reading these pages, has some solution other then those two above, and/or knows how to acquire World Class breeders every time, at little or no cost, I certainly would be interested in hearing about it.


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## Lickfork (Feb 1, 2010)

I agree with Warren.
I will add: 
Everyone handles birds slightly differant. It could be loft enviroment, feed, feed schedule, climate, geographic location, training methods or what ever. For instance take the best bird you've ever raised and raced who has won x amount of big races, a "true champion". If that same bird would have hatched in someone else's loft his results and acheivements would have been very differant. Personally I have tried many of the "top" strains and imports over the years. Some have done ok others didn't do anything.That doesn't make them bad birds because other people are still winning with them. It just means they didn't work for me with my handling and situation. You have to find birds that click with your situation.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lickfork said:


> I agree with Warren.
> I will add:
> Everyone handles birds slightly differant. It could be loft enviroment, feed, feed schedule, climate, geographic location, training methods or what ever. For instance take the best bird you've ever raised and raced who has won x amount of big races, a "true champion". If that same bird would have hatched in someone else's loft his results and acheivements would have been very differant. Personally I have tried many of the "top" strains and imports over the years. Some have done ok others didn't do anything.That doesn't make them bad birds because other people are still winning with them. It just means they didn't work for me with my handling and situation. You have to find birds that click with your situation.


 I think that goes along with the saying that when you buy a pigeon from Mr. X, the bird does not come with Mr. X, his loft, his loft location, and all the components which has made Mr. X successful. 

I know some fanciers locally, that the best darn racing pigeons in the world, would not make a lick of difference, they are just so bad, so clueless. For these poor souls, no matter where, or from whom they might buy some pigeons from, it ain't gonna make no difference !  These guys might actually acquire some "good" pigeons, but because of their poor situation, they are convinced they got ripped off....when in some cases.....it's not the birds, it's the handler.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I am not going to defend these so called pigeon merchants or peddlers. They are what they are.....I don't see any difference between them, and let's say an automobile dealer, a real estate salesperson, a stock broker, or an employer. Or anyone else out there that is offering goods and services in exchange for money.
> 
> A person who can get "ripped off" by a pigeon merchant, most likely has not been any better at negotiating for any other product or service, a starting salary or bonus with his employer, or for that matter, a bed time with the kids. One can easily say that every business out there is "greedy" and just doing it for the money. Even people who work for a nonprofit, do not generally work for free.
> 
> ...


Warren if I may ask, cause I'm one of those Rookie"s in the sport (racing) that bought into "Jim Jenner"s DVD Sets so I could learn more of what those Famous flier"s in BELGIUM HOLLAND AND GREAT BRITON are doing so successfully do you consider this a waste of time? Seems like the information contained is very helpful to me!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> Warren if I may ask, cause I'm one of those Rookie"s in the sport (racing) that bought into "Jim Jenner"s DVD Sets so I could learn more of what those Famous flier"s in BELGIUM HOLLAND AND GREAT BRITON are doing so successfully do you consider this a waste of time? *Seems like the information contained is very helpful to me! [/*QUOTE]
> 
> I think you answered your own question !
> 
> Now watch those DVD's about ten times, and see what you can read between the lines. Any time you can listen and learn from those with greater skill, knowledge and experience, is never a "waste of time" in my humble opinion.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren would you SELL a bird you new would not help you or anyone else Thats what really matters Thats not hope And that not being a good rep for the sport. Its keeping buyer beware a live. You know You just raise a few birds each year that can help you or others BUT you raise a number of birds that can not Those birds Do you think should be sold. Thats what some people do They knowing sale the birds that can help the sport.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Two points concerning this thread.

1. I have been saying for a long time now, that good pigeons can win with good flyers. Great pigeons do not win with bad flyers. "Good" pigeons can be obtained for little money or even free. "Great" pigeons can also be obtained the same way. But "marketed as Great Pigeons" may only be obtained with high dollar purchase or luck, or from a friend.

Good pigeons are a dime a dollar (notice I did not say 'great" there). It is the handler and a little luck that makes the difference IMO. Luck being things like timing, weather, hawks and that "unknown" ingredient that is often talked about with great athletic performances.

2. Most all flyers will sell birds they were unsatisfied with, if given the opportunity for a little cash instead of a little pigeon pie (no, I don't eat pigeon pie and never would, YUCK). That is a fact of life and people looking to buy pigeons need to understand that. But even the worst bird in the loft of the really well known flyers, is "good" enough to breed winners, if handled and trained well. One does not need to purchase 20 thousand dollar birds to win. One does that because they want to own that bird for other reasons, or they mistakenly believe they have to do that to win.

IMO. Yours may vary. Heck. Even the Cincinnati Bengals win games, and they suck big time.

It is sort of like the Bengals getting together to play the Vikings, and the Vikings have a coach and the Bengals do not. Who would pick the Bengals in that case? Same with pigeons. YOu have to have a good handler to win consistently, but all you need are good pigeons. Not great and expensive pigeons.

The more I think on it, the more I believe that there actually is no difference between a good and a great pigeon. Just handling, timing and luck.

Cher Ami is for sure, considered a great pigeon. But how would it have done in racing a hundred or so miles? Who knows. Probably mediocre.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

re lee said:


> Warren would you SELL a bird you new would not help you or anyone else Thats what really matters Thats not hope And that not being a good rep for the sport. Its keeping buyer beware a live. You know You just raise a few birds each year that can help you or others BUT you raise a number of birds that can not Those birds Do you think should be sold. Thats what some people do They knowing sale the birds that can help the sport.


How do you know if a bird can help someone else. You will never know that, some great birds for me were culls I bought for $5 or free. Obviously they did not know they were good. There are lots of cercumstances were one flyer gave a bird away that they thought was no good and the other guy cleaned up with the same birds. There is no such thing as proven birds. What could they be proven for? To produce race winner for someone else. LOL

I think were the pedelars really go wrong is not racing babies from every pair they are selling from and seeing if they are at least producing birds that can race. This would at least increase the chances of getting good birds I mean if every bird a pair produces gets lost the babies are worth nothing. I don't believe they could still be good breeder either if they can't home they won't be breed worth the bull. This still does not mean all the babies are good, you are taking a chance they are not all good!!! Even from the best ever! If you can't afford $1000 for a chance you would be better to get cheaper birds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> Warren would you SELL a bird you new would not help you or anyone else Thats what really matters Thats not hope And that not being a good rep for the sport. Its keeping buyer beware a live. You know You just raise a few birds each year that can help you or others BUT you raise a number of birds that can not Those birds Do you think should be sold. Thats what some people do They knowing sale the birds that can help the sport.


No, I would not knowingly sell a pigeon that I knew was complete junk. Typically, IMHO....after a pigeon has completed dozens of training tosses, and has completed a YB race season, those that remain have at least proven themselves to be homing pigeons. It is from this remaining group, that race results should indicate if the bird has any racing ability. Proven racing ability, at least in my book, is highly desired, but no guarentee of ability to reproduce that ability in it's offspring. 

If one is talking about a six week old YB from certain pairs, then what you have is a lottery ticket. The buyer must determine if he or she wants to purchase a lottery ticket, or if he or she wishes to wait until the bird has flown some races. Once the bird wins a race or two, then it's a different kind of lottery ticket. 

There may only be a small handful of fanciers in the world, (if any) who can look at a six week old pigeon and say with certainty, it is a winner or a future super breeder. The same can be said about a race bird which has won some races, if it will be a good breeder. I am not one of those people. I am pretty sure I can tell a "barn" pigeon or one with defects, from a good looking bird, but you are still looking at trying to figure out the odds. Are we talking a 1,000 to 1 long shot ? A 100 to 1 long shot ? 20 to 1 ? 5 to 1 ? I am thinking a consistant race winner, with a great family tree, increases the odds of producing winners, that is me. That is why super star racers are much desired, and much sought after.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*I want some of them GOOD pigeons cheap or free.*



conditionfreak said:


> Two points concerning this thread.
> 
> 1. I have been saying for a long time now, that good pigeons can win with good flyers. Great pigeons do not win with bad flyers.* "Good" pigeons can be obtained for little money or even free. "Great" pigeons can also be obtained the same way. * But "marketed as Great Pigeons" may only be obtained with high dollar purchase or luck, or from a friend.
> 
> ...


 Forgive me if I am a bit over bearing in this thread. I always get a bit frustrated when I hear people say that good or great pigeons are everywhere, and can be gotten very cheaply or for free.

First of all, what does the term "Good" mean to you ? To me, a "good" pigeon may be one that can win average speed in a series of races at a One Loft race, and win $20,000 or $30,000 for it's owner to help pay for some pigeon feed. Or, if flying within a Federation with thousands of birds, can be in Diploma Territory numerous times. 

I also would like to see some other good winners in the pedigree, and I would like a bird who has also produced some winners, even if only on the club level. Where can I order some of these birds, at low cost, or free, in order to cross into my family lines ?........

I am sharing a photo of a bird here, which might be considered a "good" pigeon by some fanciers, and can also be seen on You Tube at: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYYjqR9MnfI

Birds of at least this stature, or better, in terms of racing and breeding is what I would like to own more of, and if cheap or free, all the better. This one was neither, as it was purchased at International auction on PiPa. Before we get into the *Great* pigeons, which you say can be obtained the same way, I will at least at this point, settle for a bunch of free ones.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When you train your young birds And record there progress there you know The good or bad. The consistant late birds The ones that make it home but Slow time after time. the old bird who does the same Or has a reduced progress after reselcting the team. Those birds are the ones you cut. The birds that make the team are the better birds Ones you saw were more so to have a chance. Now that is selection. NOT keeping every bird with feathers. Far as passing them off to others you do not pass off the ones that just came in late time after time But sell or give the birds that were on the team Or was close enough to make the team. those birds are helpers The rest will never be. NOW far as breeders go. I NEVER called a bird a great bird Until recent just as refurel. I call A bird I think Is good a good bird. AS NO great bird every came along. There is allways a better bird. NOW my aspects of great is something that can leave its mark on its offspring time after time THOS are very rare prepotent birds Are a breeders dream Few and far between. Rathere then carry more idea name me 1 person iN the world that produces say 100 birds in a years AND from that hundred aLL could be used by anybody. NAME just 1 person.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren. Obviously your and my diffinition of "good" are different. Mine is that a bird is in the top ten percent of my Combines yearly races, most of the time. Yours diffintion is apparently a bird that wins at the highest level, and wins big money at the same time. There are not so good pigeons, "good" pigeons, very good pigeons, and great pigeons. I made that distinction in my initial posting.

I will NEVER have a bird that wins 20 or 30K. Mostly because I do not enter races that pay that much. If I did, I would eventually win. But that ain't why I race pigeons. It ain't about the money and I do not need 20K worth of feed to enjoy my racing. I will supply the feed gladly, if my birds get me three or four diplomas a year. I couldn't care less if they win any money or not. I am in it for the fun and the diplomas. Reminds me of a poker tournament that I was in once. There were only two of us left and the chip count was fairly even. My opponent offered a "chop" (meaning a split of the first and second place money) but I counter offered that he could have 75% of the money, if I got the winners championship bracelet. He gladly gave up the bracelet for the extra money. I was happy and he was happy. But I would have never given up the bracelet without playing it out to the end. He could have cared less about the bracelet. He wanted money and I wanted the "diploma".

As to where you can get some of those "good" birds, free or cheaply. I can only say that my best birds were given to me, and my best hopes for breeding, are birds that I purchased at Combine auctions, on the cheap. They cost me between 25 and 300 bucks, and they all were Combine Birds of the Year or won major Combine races. I purchased at auction, last years young bird Combine Bird of the Year, and this same bird also won the biggest race of the year (the "Classic Race") , for less than you spend on feed for a month.

You want good birds for free, then I will send you some. But they won't be birds that won big money, nor won average speed. They will be "good" birds that finished in the top ten percent each and every race they flew in during young bird season.

If that ain't good enough for you, then you are going to have to spend big money I guess.

Forgive me for also being a little overbearing and frustrated myself, with this subject, but I do not sell pigeons and never will. Those that DO SELL pigeons, have a vested interest in "putting out there" that racing pigeons must come from proven winners and fancy pedigrees. I ain't trying to buy wins, nor buy stature. I buy what in my best guess, will work for me. Then I do my best to get them healthy and desirous of coming home quicker than the next guys birds. The races I have won were nothing anyone here will ever read about on the internet or in a magazine. But they were huge to me, and were won with birds given to me for free, from other flyers. I have never won a race with a bird I purchased, nor a bird that CAME from birds I paid money for.


Great basketball, baseball or football players do not have to come from parents that excelled in whatever sport. They just have to be lucky and have talent, work hard, and be taught and handled well.

If it was all about purchase price and pedigrees, then all I have to do is buy some GFL birds and Wallah! The diplomas will start rolling in.


In the other thread I started, about my new Ludo line bird from ipigeon, I said that I purchased it just because I wanted a Ludo line bird. Not because I expected it to make me a winner. Same reason I purchased a German Shepherd that is a descendant of Rin Tin TIn. Even though I know my dog will never be a movie star, nor come and tell me that my son fell down a well a mile from here. I obtained them just because I wanted them. Sure, I would be very happy if my "Ludo" bird produces some winners. But I truly believe that my best shot at future wins, will come from my "free and cheap" birds I had already. 

There is a father and son team, and an individual in my Combine, who have given me many birds. They are always right at the top of the Combine race sheets. Yet, they offer me birds all of the time. Young birds or breeders. They have given me birds from some of their best. Because they enjoy the competition. None of them have ever offered to sell me a bird, but often ask me if I need any young birds or breeders. They have won money in one loft races around the country. Most recently in the Mercedez race. Truly nice gentlemen.

I can not compare my race results to yours, yet. Because I am only going into my second year, after a twenty-five year absence.

But 25 years ago, my record was very good. It will be again. With "free or cheap" pigeons. Of course. Everything is relative, and one mans cheap is another mans expensive.

I apologize in advance, for being so combative on this subject. But I just don't think that there is a whole lot of difference between 20K dollar birds and 200 dollar birds. If someone pays ten grand for a bird, naturally they are going to make sure that bird receives lots of attention and the best of everything. But, if someone has 25 dollar birds, they may not give them the best attention to detail, and this COULD account for the difference in results.

I believe that Ludo Claessens could take the birds from my loft, and kick some arse with them, in just two or three years. Because there just ain't that much difference, except for the handler. How many Ganus birds have won the Million Dollar race? The purchase price, nor the pedigree does not a "good" racer make. There are postings here all of the time about "name" birds and higher prices paid for birds that eventually become pumpers. There are also postings here often, about how our best birds were gifts.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

That is the problem with using a word such as "Good" as a definition. It is all too very relative, and much depends on one's perspective. If I would visit the breeding lofts of the top ten percent of my combine, I am sure all of the breeders or at least 99.9% would fall into a "good" category...if we use the definition you were using, and thus the word "good" becomes meaningless....as that by definition would be a very "typical" pigeon. Falling into the top 20% of the combine, of very average pigeons, for these folks who might focus on the top 2.5% which would be combine winners, and those below this level of achievement would be, for lack of a better word, "culls". These "culls" in one man's loft, would be "good" in another guys loft, and perhaps their best foundation breeder. Even the term "Winners" is rather useless. Winning when compared to 20 lofts and 400 or 500 birds ? Or winning when flying with 50,000 to 70,000 birds ?

My loft manager prefers to assign the term "Good" to maybe the top 2 or 3 birds out of the 200+ that we own. And of course, it is not about the money, but the money is a way to keep score, and to be able to compare one bird to another....as in this bird produced 5,000 points, or this bird has produced 500 points, or this bird has produced offspring which won x number of points, etc. 


I am trying to understand this academic issue myself. I am feeling more dumb every season...this breeding better pigeons idea is much more difficult then I ever imagined. All your input is much appreciated...you force me to think...though sometimes thinking out loud can be dangerous...but then so can talking to yourself....thank you all for sharing your thoughts.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Looking at the SHOW bird concept. NOW people compete at local show levels That lesser birds can win. Then people compete with the Breed meets at district and national levels. Where the Real birds that must be good compete. there you compete with the top breeders in the country. Getting the win there or decent placement. You find the birds have to be better bred towards the idea. AND selection has to be more severe. As for Racing. ! loft races are in away doing the same. As The U S has no 5000 bird races and more as You see In europe. Federation level Helps. So agin Club deals with local level SOME areas Have lager clubs But still that level You can find awy to get the birds at a level to win. Combine Birds need to be some better Federation Better. National ! loft Agin breed better birds As the best lofts send There hopeful best to this level Cost Well it verys. Perhaps one day States can pull together And have STATE one loft races at a fare entry level. Where all clubs combines federations Can compete at a state level But mean time As you know JUst a samall number breed towards lets say a nationel level. Where Birds cost more And compition is higher NOW as some people do They partner up as a team Sending birds to each other to fly as a team. This can be done more in the racing world To send birds to the larger race areas And as team sharing the birds develops Spreading the breeding prospect at less cost and better results over all. Problem over all Is race birds Are strictly performance based AND fly to just 1 loft Then THE USA is a large country where States alone are as big as countries In europe. So its harder to build the global result in producing world class birds. HAVE to be where the compition Is to get the better reconization Of your birds. IDEAS Should Pull state clubs towards more togetherness.


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## wayne f (Oct 25, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> Two points concerning this thread.
> 
> 1. I have been saying for a long time now, that good pigeons can win with good flyers. Great pigeons do not win with bad flyers. "Good" pigeons can be obtained for little money or even free. "Great" pigeons can also be obtained the same way. But "marketed as Great Pigeons" may only be obtained with high dollar purchase or luck, or from a friend.
> 
> ...


I have to agree that the handler makes a difference, be it a pigeon for racing or a hunting dog. I train hunting dogs part time for a hunting club east of Denver. One of the other trainers was working with a dog that he couldn't seem to do anything with. He was rough with the dog and did a lot of shouting.He finally told the owner of the dog that he was no good. Now the owner paid $1000.00 dollars for this dog and was not ready to "cull" it. I took the dog on and worked with it. First I let him be a dog and let him do what he wanted to do for the first week. He slowly learned that he couldn't rush the birds, and I didn't yell at him when he did. The first day he pointed and held I walked up praised him gave him a treat. I continued to take my time with this dog and he ended up being the best dog on my chain gang! 

Pigeon or dog if a handler watches and learns what the animal is doing can make a ok animal a great one!
Wayne


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Perhaps one last thought ? 

The dirty little secret, IMHO, is that the quality of the bird may account for as little as 20% of the race result on club and combine level. The other 80% is the handler and all the details concerning management, the loft, the loft location and the wind on race day.

So when one says Mr. X at his combine has "good" birds pointing to the race results, that may not be really true. His loft location may have as much to do with it as anything else. And he may just be an exceptional handler. Maybe the % I listed is off, or it varies from race to race. So when one thinks he is breeding better birds, he just might be getting better as a handler. 

Which really sort of makes the subject matter of this thread, well....all the more challenging. We could all meet over at Smitties Bar and Grill tonight and bring the best racer and the best breeder from our loft's. This could be two different birds, or one and the same. All fifty of us could meet, put these birds in cages, and then without the race and breeding history, or knowing whose bird's are whose, we attempt to grade all these birds from #1 to #100. After the votes are cast and calculated, then we unveil the actual records and compare the rankings. 

I suspect the voting and the ranking would be so diverse that for the most part, the opinion of the mob, might just be meaningless as compared to the facts. If the fanciers can't figure out and agree on what is "good' either by definition or by inspection and grading, then how is one ever to determine if they got a good bird or a dud, over paid or under paid ???  Show birds perhaps....but race birds...and guessing their actual racing and/or breeding ability ?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Even judging a race If you have an idea On the concepts You would be surprised How close you can come to a good bird by Handling and selecting the BIRDS. NOW a race bird Has to have QUALITY not just a good handler. A race bird must have endurence. Maening conditioning. NOT over worked. Good reserve Of carb , energy A lesser desire for setting down to drink and a greater desire to push forward. IT must have the desire to break away from the pack/flock in the race Flying its own course As many birds follow rather well even get a win or two by follow the right birds. The sooner a bird breaks away it is not taken off course by other birds. IT has the smarts the brain to navigate by its self. And when heading towards the same loft And a strong team you see several on a drop. Until the races go longer . If it was so easy as to train the birds the best way then how come such a small number meet the race results even in the best lofts in the world. Because Quality first Then training the good birds To get there better performance. SAME as SHOW BIRDS. no matter what you do to a bird that does not have the quality it allways places lesser in any show. Race birds Have to want to push forward getting home The best are more leader then follower. IN the loft Often the bird that takes that high perch and defends well also has a desire to get home. And then Check you see Europen Flyers Some raise 200 300 young a years selecting down To say thirty birds By there training method. And thenthose birds Are cultivated Through training NEVER over worked Tired birds get lost. tired birds mature wore out As the BOXER who over trained looses the fightbecause he over worked his body. Remember MOrris GORDAN. He if I remember right did not use birds flown as young birds for breeders That had raced hard Because he felt they were stunted and would not produce decent birds as breeders. As he felt his line of birds were thre year birds BEST perormance After 3. years. remember back when Many birds were bred up they matured RIPE to race at different ages. SO a young bird flyer wants to find and breed towards fast maturing lines of birds. The idea of what line crosses well with another line has been result tested through the years. Keep the best cultivate only them And race the wisley You get the best performnce NOT left overs from training And send them all. As thopse slow and late birds Will still be the ones that got lost first. YES sometimes a late bird made a mistake. BUT that bird if good learned and showed you it still could deserve a perch in the later training.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*peddlers*

I can't believe it went from peddlers to this but I read on anyway, Warren I love your view points, I am not stepping in to this but I really like the luck part and how you care for your birds. >Kevin


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It's always interesting to read everyone's viewpoints on the many topics associated with pigeon racing! Everyone's points are well-made, and not everyone will agree. But that's the beauty of this sport; the friendly verbal sparring to see which person's theory works and not. 

For me, my best birds came from friends and a dollar was not spent.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

It is words like these that bring new members to the sport! Gave me inspiration to better my birds and get my son involved.

Warren, Try to enjoy the way the pigeons act again. Its fun to watch





I


conditionfreak said:


> Warren. Obviously your and my diffinition of "good" are different. Mine is that a bird is in the top ten percent of my Combines yearly races, most of the time. Yours diffintion is apparently a bird that wins at the highest level, and wins big money at the same time. There are not so good pigeons, "good" pigeons, very good pigeons, and great pigeons. I made that distinction in my initial posting.
> 
> I will NEVER have a bird that wins 20 or 30K. Mostly because I do not enter races that pay that much. If I did, I would eventually win. But that ain't why I race pigeons. It ain't about the money and I do not need 20K worth of feed to enjoy my racing. I will supply the feed gladly, if my birds get me three or four diplomas a year. I couldn't care less if they win any money or not. I am in it for the fun and the diplomas. Reminds me of a poker tournament that I was in once. There were only two of us left and the chip count was fairly even. My opponent offered a "chop" (meaning a split of the first and second place money) but I counter offered that he could have 75% of the money, if I got the winners championship bracelet. He gladly gave up the bracelet for the extra money. I was happy and he was happy. But I would have never given up the bracelet without playing it out to the end. He could have cared less about the bracelet. He wanted money and I wanted the "diploma".
> 
> ...


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

my tournier x super super?!?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SouthTown Racers said:


> ......
> 
> Warren, Try to enjoy the way the pigeons act again. Its fun to watch
> 
> ...


 I didn't know that I ever stopped.


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## JohnG (Jul 14, 2009)

Look for a good racer year after year buy good birds from him or her not big names small lofts that win.


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## holguinerito (Oct 27, 2009)

Let me add some to this topic all the guys before me mention must of it and also let me remind you that in this hobby getting rip off its in alot of cases our desition what in a way rip our self off . like everyone else said you r just buying hope plenty of time and also the condition were this birds come from has alot to do with the results. ill tell you now the weird way i learn from older fanciers back in my country (cuba) . Buying a bird by word of mouth or a piece of paper its always a big risk my example for intance this coming march i already plan on buying two pairs for breaders only. The money to spend 1K 2 or 3K on a pair of race winers its on my wallet but instead i will go back to the old way i learn , i will get my birds from local clubs ill spend the time to see the birds that are for sale when they come out to fly and even if i have to travel out of my town (houston ) just to see the birds in action myself i will do so before i spend my money and even that way im also takin gthe risk that all this time and money will be out the window with minor result, but hey once again this is part of the hobby so please dont feel so bad about what hapend to you . start over again and stand up ...For some reason i got back online and add to what i already said . to me not only winings on the breader belt its what i look for . if i can seat with another fancier in this case the seller and see a bird that proof to me in my face been smart and his homing ability even sometimes if the bird has never been race its the thing i look for to start my own thing and once again even with such a smart bird im taking the risk that he or her may not pass this on to the young birds ,once again its all hope at the end...


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