# Baby Dove Emergency! Please Look Very Sick!



## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Here is my Baby dove it fell out of a tree on July 02 was doing good until today Noticed eyes could not open and has lumps or pimples all over wing neck beak feathers falling out! Nightmare here can anyone help! I have him/her under a 40 watt light bulb now need to know what meds to give 
Thanks,
Tony


More pictures are here:

http://brooklynhood.com/images/dove/

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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

His head looks all greasy...what is that? Where have you been keeping this bird...inside or outside? Where, approximately are you located?
The light seems to be very close and I'm worried it's too close. Please put you hand on top of the bird and leave it there for a few minutes and see how hot your hand feels.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Here is a better picture I will feel his head and get back to you

That is penicillin


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> His head looks all greasy...what is that? Where have you been keeping this bird...inside or outside? Where, approximately are you located?
> The light seems to be very close and I'm worried it's too close. Please put you hand on top of the bird and leave it there for a few minutes and see how hot your hand feels.


I'm located in Brooklyn, NY we have him in a bird cage inside with 40 watt light bulb on the outside of cage


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Here is exactly how the dove is now, I checked his head does not feel hot. Eats fine and has no problem digesting. I did not see any pimples until a day or two ago it was only today when she could not open her eyes did I get worried and noticed all the bumps and pimples. Hope I can help her.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if it were pox, you wouldn't want any stuff like that on him for fear of spreading it. Someone who's more familiar with really bad pox is going to have to weigh in on that, though. If you open his eyelids (clean him up first), do his eyes look fine or are they cloudy or odd looking?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Tony...You need to take the bird to the vet. It looks very ill.The best place would be Animal General in NYC. They have a wildlife fund so there would be no charge to you. I don't know what kind of a dove this one is but it likely is a protected species which would make it illegal for you to keep it and I don't know if they will give you meds and let you treat it or if they will keep it. The best chance the bird has is to receive veterinary care.
Their number is 212-501-9600 and they are located at 588 Columbus.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Tony...You need to take the bird to the vet. It looks very ill.The best place would be Animal General in NYC. They have a wildlife fund so there would be no charge to you. I don't know what kind of a dove this one is but it likely is a protected species which would make it illegal for you to keep it and I don't know if they will give you meds and let you treat it or if they will keep it. The best chance the bird has is to receive veterinary care.
> Their number is 212-501-9600 and they are located at 588 Columbus.


That's rather far from me I have been trying to locate someone for a week now 
we have been turned away by several vets and it seems they don't care. I will try and call them in the morning and see if we can get the dove to them we put Bacitracin ophthalmic in his eyes. and to answer the other question his eyes are sunk in odd like they are not even there. It's like this happened overnight. We have had other doves like this fall out of the tree in our backyard before, raised them and let them go into the wild with no problem but I never had one like this before I hope it will make it


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Tony, When you call them in the morning, ask if they can recommend someone closer to you. If they can, I would love to have that contact for our resources. I also will worry about the little dove so I want to know how he's doing.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Tony,

Try locating Dr. Linda Pesek .. she's terrific with pigeons and doves and might be closer for you.

Your dove appears to be a young Mourning Dove with a nasty case of pox and possibly paratyphoid .. the lumps/bumps could be pox lesions, but I think I am seeing a large boil or at least a bare joint on the upper left side of the body.

If the bird has pox, you want to be drying out the lesions and not keeping them moist with cream or ointment.

Thank you so much for your care and concern for this bird! Please keep us posted!

I'll try to come up with another resource or two for you in the NYC area. (have a look here .. might be a couple: http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm .. scroll down the the NY listings)

Terry


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Tony, When you call them in the morning, ask if they can recommend someone closer to you. If they can, I would love to have that contact for our resources. I also will worry about the little dove so I want to know how he's doing.


Charis If they do give me a number I will most definitly post it here and I will keep you all posted as to it's health and outcome. I only hope they will let me get it back to put in my backyard I have about 26 doves that have nests here and would hate to see one missing. They sing so wonderful in the morning it would be sad to have one gone. We feed them every morning for over 30 years now and have a large amount of them here because we do! Take care!
Tony

PS does anyone know what this dove has?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This isn't close to you but is another good vet .. Dr. Laura George:

Catnip & Carrots Veterinary
2221 Hillside Ave
New Hyde Park, NY 11040-2714
Phone: (516) 877-7080 

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Tony,
The dove could have pox, paratyphoid or a combination of the two. Has the dove been where mosquitoes could get to it?

There is a vet in Brooklyn in the link that Terry provided...Dr. Richard Turoff at 718-625-7111.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> Try locating Dr. Linda Pesek .. she's terrific with pigeons and doves and might be closer for you.
> 
> ...


upper left side is a bare joint and they have had that when we first got them.
I called Dr. Linda Pesek today and told her about the little fella and she told me to call back in the morning so that is actually the first place I am going to call and I will go on from there. 
I'm sick that this little guy got so ill in a matter of a day I hope he will make through the night. I just checked on him and gave him some more food, seems to be eating and pooping fine so I know there is hope for him. There is no way of us getting the pox from him is there? We wash our hands and wear gloves when holding him.

Thank you all for your help and for having such a wonderful site!
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Tony,
> The dove could have pox, paratyphoid or a combination of the two. Has the dove been where mosquitoes could get to it?


There are lots of mosquitoes in my backyard and around here this year due to all this rain could that have been the cause?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Tony,

Glad you're going to be able to see Dr. Pesek. No, you won't get pox from the bird .. it is a species specific thing, and you're the wrong species.

Bless you for caring for this little one!

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

tonyb said:


> There are lots of mosquitoes in my backyard and around here this year due to all this rain could that have been the cause?


Certainly, if he has been around mosquitoes recently.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks Terry glade to know  

I love hearing my doves and even though we can't own them we can take care of them and help them when they need our help it's the least we should do.
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Certainly, if he has been around mosquitoes recently.


well Charis, then that explains it must have been them dam mosquitoes! I will let the doctor know that as well thanks.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Love your avatar, Tony.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks Charis, I forgot where I picked it up from but I use it on most sites I go on. 
Tony


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Avian Pox Info ..*

Tony and all,

Here's a couple of good links about avian pox .. the pictures are not pleasant so look at your own risk:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/other_diseases/avian_pox.jsp

http://www.dvrconline.org/avianpox.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288422

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Tony and all,
> 
> Here's a couple of good links about avian pox .. the pictures are not pleasant so look at your own risk:
> 
> ...


Great links, Terry. Thanks!
I've added them to my resources.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Tony and all,
> 
> Here's a couple of good links about avian pox .. the pictures are not pleasant so look at your own risk:
> 
> ...


Thanks Terry! 

I can only pray that the rest of the doves in my backyard don't catch this! I will have to go out in the morning and clean all the feeders now! What a nightmare this diease is! Maybe the mother knew it was sick and kicked it out of the nest? 

Last checked my little friend and he is still doing good, very responsive and nice and warm. Trying to keep him at 84 F 
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Did my Last check on the little guy before bed at 2:40 am ET and she moved about 5 inches away from light felt her and she feels just right! Digital Thermometer next to her reads 83.5 so I'm happy and off to sleep.
Tony


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Clean out all the waterers too, please! Use bleach!


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Latest Update on our little friend and some phone numbers for Brooklyn, NY

I called to make an appointment with Animal General in NYC and they said first to call Karan to get a free referral (Wild Birds only) to Animal General in NYC Karan’s # is 646-306-2862 Mon to Fri 8:00am to 7:00pm Then I asked her if there was a closer place to me in Brooklyn and she gave me a number where they will take the little guy and turn him over to a rehabilitator there number is 718-435-6900 Dr Kescher. The only thing was when I asked them if they will put the dove to sleep they said they might and they don’t let you take the bird back. So I am really not sure if that is where I want to bring the little guy. I’m trying to save it not have it put to sleep I will try the other numbers in the above posts and find the best one and will write back my findings. 
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

philodice said:


> Clean out all the waterers too, please! Use bleach!


Yes we did that 7:00 am this morning cleaned the whole area with bleach washed the feeders, floor, birdbath and everywhere else! 
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Tony,
> The dove could have pox, paratyphoid or a combination of the two. Has the dove been where mosquitoes could get to it?
> 
> There is a vet in Brooklyn in the link that Terry provided...Dr. Richard Turoff at 718-625-7111.


This doctor I would not recommend I called 3 times explaining the problem and they just said call back Thursday, even after I explained the dove had the pox they said the doctor was to busy. So thumbs down to this one... Seemed not interested at all.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> Try locating Dr. Linda Pesek .. she's terrific with pigeons and doves and might be closer for you.
> 
> Terry


Dr. Linda Pesek, DVM, Dipl ABVP. The Center for Avian & Exotic Medicine. 568 Columbus Ave ?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

tonyb said:


> This doctor I would not recommend I called 3 times explaining the problem and they just said call back Thursday, even after I explained the dove had the pox they said the doctor was to busy. So thumbs down to this one... Seemed not interested at all.


Tony, This is really good to know.
Maybe Terry can take him off the Pigeon Talk resource or maybe one of our NY members can give them a call to find out their policy on wildlife. If they aren't willing to be helpful, I don't think they should be on out list.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

tonyb said:


> Dr. Linda Pesek, DVM, Dipl ABVP. The Center for Avian & Exotic Medicine. 568 Columbus Ave ?



The number I found is 212-501-8750
She must be next to or affiliated with Animal General.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> Tony, Dr Pesek is in Westbury L I..... 319 Union Avenue....Westbury L I...... phone 516-333-1123. Where ever you go...they are bound by law to take the dove from you as it is a protected species.... just so you are aware and won't be surprised and distressed.


Taking the dove and giving it to someone to help it is fine and that is what we want to do but taking it to someone and they just put it to sleep is not what I'm going to do. I will find the best place for this little guy and I think I'm going to have to schlep all the way up to Animal General in NYC they seem to be wanting to help it and it is funded so they will most likely be the best bet.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Tony, This is really good to know.
> Maybe Terry can take him off the Pigeon Talk resource or maybe one of our NY members can give them a call to find out their policy on wildlife. If they aren't willing to be helpful, I don't think they should be on out list.


I agree, they kept pushing me off telling me yesterday she had to look it up and to call today I called today she said call back Thursday This bird needs help now not days from now I was very upset with them.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Tony,

Dr. Pesek has examined some of my rehab birds, and I think she's great. There are few people who can parallel her knowledge. However, she works out of *many* different clinics, and it can be hard to get a hold of her. She works at Animal General Avian & Exotics (next door to their "regular" clinic) on Friday mornings and Saturdays, but be aware that if you take a wild bird to see her here, they will charge you full price, which will be in the hundreds. (Also, technicallly, their policy is that no wildlife can be seen there because of the threat of contagious disease, so you might not be able to get an appointment anyway.)

If you see Dr. Pesek at one of the LI clinics she works out of, there is no charge for an exam. As far as I know, she also takes drop-offs. In either case, it's wise to call ahead. She's at one LI clinic way out there tonight and back at the emergency place in Westbury tomorrow night.

I don't have any personal experience with Dr. Keschner, but there might be members on NYCPRC or PijnPeople (Yahoo groups) who do, so it might be worth a search there.

Jennifer


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> BTW, Tony... Wild Bird Fund is funded by Donations. Again their number is 646-306-2862. You will be talking to Rita or Karen or Gloria.... they ARE the WBF. They are located in the AG hospital on 558 Columbus Ave near 87th St Manhattan ... C train Stop.


Spoke to Karen and we are leaving now to see what they will do I'll let you all know when I come back thank you for your help I'm sure he will given the best care at this place I made over 20 phone calls and this is the winner.

Tony


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Tony and all,
> 
> Here's a couple of good links about avian pox .. the pictures are not pleasant so look at your own risk:
> 
> ...


The fourth link contains some good factual information and microphotographs, but I was concerned about the actual treatment of the dove. Medicating the lesions with a solution and an ointment doesn't seem right, and I don't understand why it was deemed necessary to euthanize that bird. I would hesitate about consulting that vet.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

*How is the little one?*

Please keep us posted, Tony. Hope your little dove gets better.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

I just cam back from Animal General and Rita examined the dove and said it had pox and had to be euthanize because the wing was was fractured ( that red spot on the picture above) and she would not be able to fly again I am very sadden by this, I should have just kept her. Rita said the pox will go away over time and I could have just let her live her life out in my house rather then being euthanize just because it can't fly. I'm not sure when they will do it or if it is done already but if anyone wants to know it's being held at Animal General 646-306-2862. That will be the last time I bring any of my backyard doves to any Wild Bird Fund. or any rehab! I'm sure they could have kept her around hopping or what not. From now I will do as I have always done it myself. I had a robin redbreast back in 1978 she lived 20 years inside because she was not able to be set free again! I'm sure I could have done it with this one as well.
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

I do have another location For Brooklyn Dr. Michael Keocher 718 435-6900 
Birds are dropped off -no fee- They will be evaluated and given to a rehabber for care.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

tonyb said:


> I do have another location For Brooklyn Dr. Michael Keocher 718 435-6900
> Birds are dropped off -no fee- They will be evaluated and given to a rehabber for care.


Thank you, Tony,
I'm very sorry about the dove. It all seems so unfair.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Tony,

I'm sorry to hear about the dove.

I know it's a moot point now, but I'm curious. What was Dr. Pesek's advice when you spoke with her this morning?

Jennifer


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> Well, Tony, I'm sorry you failed to mention that the bird had a broken wing. If you had given that information I would have told you that the WBF is bound by law to PTS any wild native species that cannot be returned to the wild. if the bird only had pox, the girls would have kept it and cured it and released it. Private persons are not allowed to harbor any native species and the licensed rehabbers MUST by law PTS any bird that cannot be released back to the wild. I hope you can understand that they have no choice if they wish to keep their license. If you had only shared the information about the wing, I would not have told you to take it anywhere. With some supportive care you might have saved it...we'll never know now. Please be advised that anyone who has a protected species must hide that fact or relinquish it to the authorized person, either a Vet or licensed rehabber. Please don't be down on WBF, they save a lot more than they have to PTS and they are the most helpful we have here in the NYC area. As it turns out with the wing problem, anyone you went to would have done the same, again I emphasize, they must by law.


Well it's not any ones fault here, nobody knew including me, that the wing was broken. I'm not that upset now. I guess it was the whole driving there and being told there was no other choice that got me more then anything.
I'm sure WBF does a great job and Rita was a wonderful person. I felt she did the best she could, she fed it as soon as I brought into her and I have nothing against her she did say she will keep for a while not sure how long that was but who knows. They know more then me and we live and we learn.

Next time I will be more careful and show better pictures. But what gets me me is the bird did fly to me from the cage right to the spot I fed it from, that's why I didn't think anything was wrong with wing. 

Well this is still the best group I found for help and will always come here first if I find another little friend in need. Thanks again to everyone who helped out it's only sad we have these types of laws. I guess they are there for a reason... 

Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Tony,
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about the dove.
> 
> ...


Hi Jennifer,
Well that's the thing I never had the chance to bring the dove to Dr. Pesek's. Who knows maybe It would have been different.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> EVALUATED..... what does that mean??? It means IF the bird can be repaired and RELEASED back to the wild, they will repair it.IF THE BIRD CANNOT BE REPAIRED FOR RELEASE...IT MUST BE PTS. That is the law


Good Point to know now, will put that into my long term memory  

I'm sure this Thread will help others to come, and I'm glade to see so many people with the same love towards birds like I have!

Yes one little one was lost today but hopefully this thread will save more in forthcoming months and years to make up for it!

Tony


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Tony and all .. especially Tony ..

I am so very sorry that things ended as they did for this dove, It is very difficult at times to know what is best, and I think we all did try to give you the best advice here on Pigeon-Talk. Sadly, that resulted in the death of the dove. There is nothing I can say that will make that right or OK for you, and my heart goes out to you .. 

Tony .. I don't think it is that tough in New York State .. go get your rehabbers license and do it now! Then you can legally care for birds such as this dove. 

I rescue and rehab lots and lots of birds, but the ones I take in do not require permits or anything .. I do the underdogs .. sparrows, starlings, pigeons, exotics, and domestics. 

Please do feel free to stay with us here on Pigeon-Talk. Again, I am very sorry this ended as it did.

Terry


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Tony and all .. especially Tony ..
> 
> I am so very sorry that things ended as they did for this dove, It is very difficult at times to know what is best, and I think we all did try to give you the best advice here on Pigeon-Talk. Sadly, that resulted in the death of the dove. There is nothing I can say that will make that right or OK for you, and my heart goes out to you ..
> 
> ...


Terry, 

After this experience I think I am going to get a rehabbers license. 
This is one of the best groups I found on Doves and Pigeons and will tell all my friends that have problems to here first. 

I am going to start a new thread about the recent decline in my backyard doves. And feel this thread would not be the place I will keep the pictures of the little guy up however, so others can see what to look for. And thanks again for having such a wonderful site!
Tony

If anyone needs Info on becoming a New York State Wildlife Rehabilitator here is the link
Part 184: Wildlife Rehabilitators

Wildlife Rehabilitator License

License to Collect or Possess


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

tonyb said:


> I am going to start a new thread about the recent decline in my backyard doves. Tony


Glad to see you still here, Tony. I'll be looking for the new thread.

Terry


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Tony .. I don't think it is that tough in New York State .. go get your rehabbers license and do it now! Then you can legally care for birds such as this dove.


Actually, to legally rehab any migratory bird species (which basically means any species other than pigeons, sparrows, and starlings), you need a federal permit, not just a NYS license. The requirements for obtaining a federal permit are much more stringent than that for the state one: http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-10b.pdf

Tony, if the bird can fly now, I'm not sure why it would have to be euthanized immediately. The question in my mind is whether he can fly vertically as well as horizontally.

From what I know about Dr. Pesek, she goes out of her way to save each bird. She cares for and provides sanctuary for many different species, and I doubt she would euthanize a bird who couldn't fly.

Jennifer


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

jenfer said:


> Actually, to legally rehab any migratory bird species (which basically means any species other than pigeons, sparrows, and starlings), you need a federal permit, not just a NYS license. The requirements for obtaining a federal permit are much more stringent than that for the state one: http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-10b.pdf
> 
> Tony, if the bird can fly now, I'm not sure why it would have to be euthanized immediately. The question in my mind is whether he can fly vertically as well as horizontally.
> 
> ...


Jennifer,
I'm sorry to say it never made it to Dr. Pesek I took the Dove to Animal General in NYC were it was seen by Rita a rehabilitator whom said the dove had a frozen wing and had to be PTS. The Dove was able to fly to me from 10 feet it took off and landed fine I seen the missing feathers she was saying this is a frozen wing. I should have just left with the dove and went for a second opinion. But it is to late now. I have learned from this mistake and it will never happen again. 










I think they had no room that's what I think
Tony


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

So sorry about your little dove! I hope that you take Terry's and Nona's advice, as you would make an excellent rehaber! It would be the best tribute to your little friend.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To TonyB,

You do not need a license to help wild birds. If you do they will have a leash on you by threatening your license. You will not get rich rehabbing birds and the truth is you don't need them.

Parenthetically, there is no way in the world the people you consulted could have known if the bird would fly again, and if it was able to fly to you their excuse is pure BS.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks Nona, I know you had no idea I didn't either I'm sure the little guy is in a better place now flying free. 

I did research on what is needed to become a rehabber. I am going to start on getting my permits ASAP. Brooklyn needs more, the only one here that I called did not even want to look at her, makes me sick.

I myself do not think any bird should be kept in a cage. Birds were made to be free and fly in the air, not sit on a stick in a cage for people to look at. That goes for all birds. People that have house birds should let them fly around their house not sit in the cage all day. We used to have pigeons when my great grand mother was alive, she would let them free fly all day and they would always come home before dusk. More people should train their birds to fly around and come home. I have a lot of work to catch up with and that's why I didn't respond sooner but I will keep you posted. I am really worried about the other doves I hope they all don't get the pox 

Tony


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Tony, I agree with you about birds not being kept in cages all the time and my one of my little parrots is sitting on my shoulder as I type this post. The other is in his cage because the one on my shoulder attacks him and so I must rotate their time out.
Many of us are unable to let our pigeon fly free either because of neighbors or Birds of Prey.
I think you will make a terrific rehabber and you know we will keep you busy.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> The girls at WBF are totally dedicated to saving as many of their patients as possible. The bird may have been able to fly across the room but that does not mean it could manage in the wild. NY State rehabbers are bound by law to PTS any native species that cannot be returned to the wild with reasonable expectations of survival. Their actions were neither an excuse nor was it BS.


I won't hold a grudge against WBF they were very nice and the little guy had Pox and was very sick. They had to do what was best, thinking about it today made me realize my little friend could have made a lot of other birds there sick and I think that and the fact his wing was bruised was to much. If I had another bird that was not as sick and no broken wing I would bring it to them I know they do the right thing. 
Tony


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Charis said:


> Tony, I agree with you about birds not being kept in cages all the time and my one of my little parrots is sitting on my shoulder as I type this post. The other is in his cage because the one on my shoulder attacks him and so I must rotate their time out.
> Many of us are unable to let our pigeon fly free either because of neighbors or Birds of Prey.
> I think you will make a terrific rehabber and you know we will keep you busy.


Thanks Charis, I'm trying to figure out what room I'm going to use  I'm sure it will take a few months to get the permits, hopefully by next year. Only because I do get so many little doves. It's hard to climb up a 20 foot tree to stick them back in and I'm good for 2 or 3 doves a season. Last year 2 fell out and I was able to get them safely back in. This year I was not lucky at all


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Grimaldy said:


> You do not need a license to help wild birds. If you do they will have a leash on you by threatening your license. You will not get rich rehabbing birds and the truth is you don't need them.


I have to disagree with you, Grimaldy. In most states no permits are required to rehab English Sparrows, European Starlings, or feral pigeons as they are considered non-native species. All other wild birds are protected under federal and state law, and permits are required to rehab them .. both state and federal permits. It is true that non-permitted individuals can legally rescue sick, injured, or orphaned protected species of birds, but by law, any such birds have to be taken to a permitted facility or individual within 48-72 hours. I am well aware that the laws are not always followed and for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately a mean spirited person can cause a great deal of hardship for someone "possessing" a protected species of bird without the permits. 

Terry


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

little bird said:


> Tony, you will need more than a room. NY requires you have an outside aviary to acclimate the rehabs to be released


This isn't true to my knowledge, unless there's some specialized NYS rule for migratory birds I'm not aware of. I'm NYS licensed and in no way do I have an outside aviary. The same holds true for other NYS licensed rehabbers I know.

Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm fairly certain I'm right. You certain are not required to have outdoor space for nonmigratory species. And other licensed rehabbers I know who release migratory birds don't have aviaries, either.

Jennifer


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> Tony, you will need more than a room. NY requires you have an outside aviary to acclimate the rehabs to be released......thankfully you have the backyard, I hope you have legal access to use it. One of our best NYC rehabbers was forced out of her home of many years, & forced out of ''business'' by a new building owner because she had her aviary in the building's back courtyard.


Thanks Nona, we have a nice size backyard with a porch. Under it was our Pigeon coop. We own the house so I don't think I would have any problems with that. To bad we don't have the coop anymore, Guess I'll have to build a new one


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To TAWhatley,

I don't expect people to agree with me simply because they have another point of view, mistaken or not.

For instance the federal regulations governing possession of migratory birds do not set any time limits at all as to when, if ever, a rescued bird must be taken to a vet or licensed rehabber. Reading the Act in isolation, one could conclude that migratory birds are best left to die, rather than being helped. However, if you read the Congressional declaration concerning the Migratory Bird Act and its related history it is clear that what is intended is the prevention of commercial exploitation of migratory game birds, commercial hunters in a word. The Act has really done nothing much as commercial hunting has now moved over into private shooting where land owners bait game birds during the year so that the private hunters can come and kill as much as they like or can afford. I notice that each year wardens regularly find refrigerated trucks prowling around the national forests and other areas stocked with illegal kills. In that context, threatening someone who takes in a disabled dove or finch, is rather stupid, wouldn't you agree?

The problem is that the so-called licensed rehabbers are a very officious group who appear to be more interested in protecting their "turf" such as it is, than the welfare of birds. As littlebird's story amply illustrates, it was the petty jealousy of a so-called licensed rehabber who managed to find a couple of cops with nothing else to do, to threaten her to stop helping injured and sick birds. If that is an example of what licensed rehabbers are all about, all of us, the birds included, would be much better off without them. While I certainly understand the need for information sharing and mutual support in dealing with sick and injured birds, that does not mean that one's common sense has to be left at the doorstep.

The provisions of the migratory bird Act and the wildlife conservation Act should be recognized as exactly what they are and what they are about. Fundamentally the route to a license means business for the veterinarians; but when there is no money in it, pigeons for example, there is also no interest in it either. Let each of us be guided by our conscience and act accordingly; we have hung people and executed people for their failure to do so in other contexts.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I have little doubt there are some fine decent people who become rehabbers with nothing more than an interest in helping wild birds. However I can not recount the number of times people have told me they have taken injured or sick birds to a certain well known rehabber here in the Chicago area just to be told it would have to be put down. Of course they end up wondering why they went to all the time and trouble in the first place.Those decisions may or may not have been justified by the condition of the bird, but unquestionably the economics of treating that bird appear to play a major role in the decision making, and when making money comes into the picture, for good or for evil, the rules of the game change. Yes they are all supposed to be charitable non-profit organizations, but some I notice are more non-profit than others. The truly unprofitable are usually more concerned with the bird's welfare than disposing of a case.


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## tms1950 (Aug 23, 2005)

I`m a rehabber that struggles with funding,but I always find a way to provide the songbirds my best expertise and medical care.One problem I often have(and have right now) is what to do with unreleasable Mourning doves.Although I have sent many songbirds to AZA-accredited zoos,they don`t want mourning doves.It is a difficult choice for me to make to euthanize a bird,but since F&W will only allow me to rehab a bird for 5 months,I have to either find placement or euthanize.This could be why those places that PTS do this.
BTW- I know that F&W required me to send photos of my outdoor aviary to get my federal license.A federally-permited songbird rehabilitator is required by federal law to have an outdoor flight pen.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Like I said, there is no requirement that a person must park their brains and common sense on the doorstep if they want to help birds.

If you want to play in the government's bailiwick, you must play by the government's rules.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> As I mentioned before.... most rehabbers are between a rock and a hard place .... and that is exactly what I meant. It is so unfair to work so hard to save a life and then have no place for the bird to live out it's life. I cannot understand why the authorities do not make an exception for non-licensed people to harbor the healthy but flightless rehabbed birds ... especially those who lose their flight abilities as a fledgling. I understand a rehabbed adult not being able to accept confinement but a fledgling or younger usually has no problem in an aviary as they have never known freedom.


I agree It's crazy, If the bird can no longer fly and a non-licensed person wants to give it a home to live out it's life then why not? What is wrong with this Government! These rules need to change I would have taken care of that little guy for as long as I needed to. We should write our lawmakers to change these dumb, cruel rules!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

tms1950 said:


> I`m a rehabber that struggles with funding,but I always find a way to provide the songbirds my best expertise and medical care.One problem I often have(and have right now) is what to do with unreleasable Mourning doves.Although I have sent many songbirds to AZA-accredited zoos,they don`t want mourning doves.It is a difficult choice for me to make to euthanize a bird,but since F&W will only allow me to rehab a bird for 5 months,I have to either find placement or euthanize.This could be why those places that PTS do this.
> BTW- I know that F&W required me to send photos of my outdoor aviary to get my federal license.A federally-permited songbird rehabilitator is required by federal law to have an outdoor flight pen.




Hi tms, 


Where you located?


Phil
lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Grimaldy said:


> Like I said, there is no requirement that a person must park their brains and common sense on the doorstep if they want to help birds.
> 
> If you want to play in the government's bailiwick, you must play by the government's rules.




Quite so...



Within this, possibly, there is away in which a Licenced Rehabber can call upon outsouced care-giving for non-ctirical Birds, under their supervision...which could allow non-releaseables to have good Homes with private people, or in 'Annexes', and having some Memorandum if necessary to formalize the arrangements or understandings...'possibly'...

I do not now the ins and outs, and I have not read the endless texts associated with it.


I did fill out and send in my State and Federal 'rehabber' Applications some time back, so, I guess I could say, my 'License' is 'Pending'...and I know Paperwork can take a while...


But the Federal Application forms were massive, and the Texts which went with them were like a couple LA Phone Books...I just do not have those handy now to refer to them, but, I guess, if one wanted, one could send off for the Texts and read up on how these Laws and guidelines are written and what have to them in that sense.



Phil
l v


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi tonyb,

The laws don't need changing, they work just fine. It is the citizen's obligation to understand what they do exactly and what they do not do. Most people approach the MBA and the CA like a cook book looking for a short simple answer. It is not the easy and the enforcement people know less than you do and care less than that.


To pdbbison,

It is intended to discourage people from applying, obviously. Not many years ago it was illegal to brew home made beer in any amount for any reason. If you wanted a license you had to post a copy of the license on your door, submit to unannounced inspections, renew every year, submit to personal interviews, all of which was intended to discourage people. People with any brains in their heads just quietly made their homebrew and kept their mouths shut about it. As long as they were not making truck loads of the stuff. IRS just looked the other way. After Congress changed the Code, a small lucrative industry grew up which finally died out for lack of interest.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

What an interesting thread. I'm behind in reading so just saw it.

Years ago, the Dept. of Interior would grant permission to keep a non-releasable bird. We found a wing injured Evening Grosbeak in our yard and took it to a vet. The vet said one wing was injured so badly he could never be released. He put us in touch with the Dept of Interior who granted us permission, in writing, to keep this bird. But you know what - their explanation was they were trying to compile information on all birds and that, when and if our "Starsky" died, we were to give them his body. Starsky lived three plus years and when he died I contacted them and they checked their records and said they had received the body of another EG and would not need ours.

I wish the law could be clarified and written so rehabbers can keep non-releasables if they wish to. Based on my experience in rehabbing both songbirds and pigeons, I think all birds can adapt to captivity and live good, happy lives. To me, it is a shame and disgrace to euthanize a bird that has say, a broken wing, when it could stay alive with a caring person. Some facilities go exactly by the law with no deviation. There is a wildlife center on the coast of NC that we periodically took birds to while we were at the coast. Invariably, they told us that if they couldn't get the birds back to being releasable they would be euthanized. Thankfully, the few we took to them had minor breaks or boo boos. I expect though, that in order for them to keep their facility going, they have to do this.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

It is all a matter of executive discretion, it has nothing to do with the laws as written. The Secretary of the Interior is a cabinet officer, he reports to the president, and I would think that by now people would understand what that means. But in case they don't or if they harbor some illusions about this administration's policies, take a look at the USDA website. (Also another cabinet post). They take great pride in the fact hey have poisoned over 5 million wild birds, starlings, blackbirds and other indigenous species this year alone. Why? Because the little rascals dared to eat some of the cattle feed that the big feed lot beef farmers put out for thier cattle and because they decided to help themselves to some of the farmer's sunflowers, that is why. Now compare that with this silliness about rescuing a mourning dove or a bluejay or two.

If you don't like that, vote in November and try to pay attention to what the candidates are saying. Better still the next time someone tells you it is illegal to rescue a baby bird and you need to deliver it to a licensed rehabbe, tell them to look at the USDA website.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

little bird said:


> I am aware that my advice did result in the death of tonyb's bird and believe me, it is advice I will NEVER give again.


Nona your advice was good and correct. The only thing that was overlooked was the fact of the broken wing. Before we give advise to take birds to vet's or rehabbers we must first have them send pictures of the wings to determine if the bird can or will fly again and go from there accordingly. I don't promote going against the law but if I would have had the chance I would have ran out of the office with that bird and not thought twice. That's also not to say if I find another healthy baby dove I would not hesitate to bring it to Animal General. The Key word here is Healthy! So my advice to all that read this is make sure the bird's wing is not broken! If it is it's up you to decide what to do with it.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Amen, amen!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

tonyb said:


> I just cam back from Animal General and Rita examined the dove and said it had pox and had to be euthanize because the wing was was fractured ( that red spot on the picture above) and she would not be able to fly again I am very sadden by this, I should have just kept her. Rita said the pox will go away over time and I could have just let her live her life out in my house rather then being euthanize just because it can't fly. I'm not sure when they will do it or if it is done already but if anyone wants to know it's being held at Animal General 646-306-2862. That will be the last time I bring any of my backyard doves to any Wild Bird Fund. or any rehab! I'm sure they could have kept her around hopping or what not. From now I will do as I have always done it myself. I had a robin redbreast back in 1998 it took her 4 years and she was able to be set free again! I'm sure I could have done it with this one as well.
> Tony


Tony, just wanted you to know how sorry I am about your little dove but to also mention that it would probably have been virtually impossible for AG, or for that matter, any vet or rehabber to keep non-releasable birds and I'm not talking about Federal law. I'm talking about volume. AG probably wouldn't have the space or staff to devote to keeping the little one because of the sheer number of birds that come in. As far as rehabbers go, they are usually a one man operation, or two, and some can get in birds in the hundreds if not thousands in any one year. I expect that every year at least one or two birds are non-releasable and that adds up. It is also a long term commitment.

I also suspect that many non-releasable birds _quietly_ wind up living a good life in the care of someone who loves them.


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## tonyb (Aug 26, 2008)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I also suspect that many non-releasable birds _quietly_ wind up living a good life in the care of someone who loves them.


Yes as was the case with the robin I had that had a broken wing. We had him in our care for twenty years, it past away in 1998 after living a full life. We fed it a mixture of dog food, carrots, and eggs she loved it. 
Tony


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