# Nasty people :p



## Ground Zero (Jul 26, 2004)

http://www.bokhari.com/

can i hack it?


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## birdlover000 (Aug 17, 2003)

*I wish....*

IT says:

Our Mission 
Helping individuals, families, and communities put 
research based knowledge to work towards 
improving the quality of their lives.

What, that is not a mission?!?

WHAT!!

Our Prices 
Live Squabs

OUR 
Special 
*LIVE SQUAB SALE  * $60/Dozen*(1) 
* Farm-gate Price @ BOKHARI SQUAB FARMS 
(1) Shipping, handling & postage Extra


Breeding Stocks

Item Age Price/Bird 
*Squabs days $12.50 * Young adults 11-16 weeks $ 25.00 
Unmated pairs 17-24 weeks $ 37.50 

Prices are subject to change without notice.
Cost of shipping boxes and postage is extra and may run

something like $12.50 per bird.
Full payment with order is required.
Shipments are subject to:

Acceptance by USPS for Express Mail delivery. 
Temperatures (above 45 or below 85 degree F). 
Availability of stocks in hand. 
Orders are filled on "first come, first served" basis.
All birds are held in isolation for thirty days for biosecurity &

health check prior to shipment.
Allow 8-12 weeks lead time to ship your orders.

Back to TOC 

**They couldn't survive then?? They can't do that, what can't we stop them?!?!? The poor things!!!

 

ERR!!!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As Linda McCartney used to say " _How can they!?"_

There are good people and bad people in this world. The bad people exploit whatever is innocent and vulnerable. 

Cynthia


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## birdlover000 (Aug 17, 2003)

*Look at this....*

http://www.petitiononline.com/jun2291/petition.html

This is a petition againist the Farming of Squabs....please sign....  

Thanks


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## xavior (Jul 14, 2004)

*Can I join in the loathing?*

My apartment manager just told me to stop feeding the birds! Gawd, I loathe this man. I took the birdfeeder down for a while because the grackles started attacking and killing the sparrows (another site said that's the way to get the grackles to relocate). I still threw out seeds twice a day but since it wasn't on schedule all the birds, except for the grackles, figured-out what I was doing so they still got some food.. until NOW! I got permission to put a birdfeeder out there three years ago, when I moved in here.. but now he says there are too many pigeons and says that they're a health hazard. The jerk just happened to come by after I had put out fresh bowls of water and that's when I get a large gathering of pigeons because I think it's the only place around for them to drink and bath and sunbath (I love it when they're all out there, nesting in the grass and fluttering their wings in the water). He was disgusted with all the pigeons. I think I pieced my tongue when I had to bite it to keep from telling him how much he disgusts me!

I've got a pair of bluejays feeding their three kids in the morning and a mother cardinal feeding her young one in the evening. During the day the sparrows and pigeons are the majority of visitors, I admit, but many of my fellow tenants like the birds (and their cats love to watch from the windows). I told him I needed a month to wean them off the feeding but he says they'll manage with what they find in the dumpsters. "Ah, dude, your stupidity is showing!!" I'm going to have to stay inside because the pigeons know me well and they surround me whenever I come out to the yard. I'm heartbroken. I figure I'll find a way to toss some seeds out there from time to time.. (from my apartment window, maybe, ? so I won't be seen on the surveillance cameras) ..at least for a while. I hope they can all find a safe haven elsewhere. I'm so sad  and I'm so mad


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Xavior,

I'm sorry you can't feed the birds anymore. It is hard to deal with people that don't share our interests, but you have to be careful if you live in an apt. complex. You have to deal with other peoples opinions and rights, even if it is not fair. For the safety of the pigeons it would be good if you could find a location to feed them that is pigeon friendly, an area where you don't see many people so you could continue your hobby.

I have a birdfeeder in my yard and a coop pf pigeons, so I can relate.

Treesa


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

I couldn't resist this reply...

I paid to much for my home...
I pay to much in taxes and association dues...
You'd think after all that being said and paid, I'd get to have a bird feeder.
NO. They (assh*lessociation) made me take it down a couple of weeks ago.

Nonetheless...I now have a tree thats is approved by the city and the association planted in my fromt yard, that just HAPPENS to have the same seed pods that they sell in the bird section of the pet store (take that jerks), and the seed makes it out onto the sidewalk before the condo commandos come around. My birds flock to me, but if I toss it out on the walk during my late night walk, all the pijs are asleep, and the jerls, and by morning, the table is already set. How did that food get there???

So Sunday, I bolstered my garden (where my feral stay during the day) and got it certified as a wildlife habitat. My next destination will be "Wings Over Florida" which can maybe certify me as well. TAKE THAT!!!

So...don't get mad, save the energy for creative ideas. Afterall, they can take away the birdfeeder, but can they really take away your desire to want to help your babies. You might get evicted with all this horseplay, and they might try to find ways of foreclosing on my home =), but keep your checks and balances, and you'll have a fun type of adventure ahead of you.

Thoughts...I sometimes wonder if I can train "my" flock to do a fly by, over the board of directors houses for a good dump run! There goes my Kharma, shoot.
Yong


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*So Sunday, I bolstered my garden (where my feral stay during the day) and got it certified as a wildlife habitat. My next destination will be "Wings Over Florida" which can maybe certify me as well. TAKE THAT!!!*
Way to go Yong!!  

I love it when people stand up for what they feel is right.  
Please keep us posted on any upcoming events.

Cindy


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## xavior (Jul 14, 2004)

Thanks for joining me in sympathizing with the birds, who are the ones who are going to struggle with this more than me. I'm really going to miss their company. Since I've lived here, and fed the wildlife, for three years.. I believe there's more to this.. but I'd have to get into the politics and personal stuff going on around here to explain.. and that's not what this forum is about. I believe a lot of the tenants are going to be upset about this.. or else a lot of them have been lying through their teeth when they tell me how much they enjoy all the birds, squirrels, rabbits.. and what a dedicated person I am to tend to them. They've watched me go out there in the blizzards and clear snow and put out food. And I'm the one they come running to with the babies and the injured. One woman has a little feeder in the front of the building and she's not going to be happy about this. Whatever the reason, the outcome is still the same. I cut down the birdfeeder tonight.. and I brought in the water bowls. I still think I can get away with a little feeding, maybe a little watering at the end of the day, for a while (I told him I needed time to help them adjust and relocate..) but I think I'll just toss a little food out at night so they have it all eaten in the morning and then put some water out at the end of the day.. so they'll get a drink but won't stay for a day by the pool, if you know what I mean. 
There is no place else I can go to feed them anywhere around here but the birdseed at the nearby discount store often gets wiped-out entirely by someone around here.. so someone is feeding them somewhere in the neighborhood. First, my wildlife rehab closes.. and now this. I guess I'm just going to have to take a hint. It's time to stop tending the wildlife.. 

*I love what you're doing, Yong!* An actual wildlife habitat - that's GREAT! You have the will and you found a way!! Definitely keep us posted on "Wings Over Florida." We have a couple of plots/planters and for two summers I tried planting things (like millet, oats, sunflowers, etc.) in the empty one.. in hopes that nature could feed the birds but, besides not having a green thumb, it's not in the best location for growing things - not a lot of sun.. and when it rains.. those planters turn into pools. I still think I'll do some research on native plants and see if there's anything that the birds could dine on that could survive in that location. Man, it's going to be a tough winter for them if I can't put any food out. I admit.. I've found myself hoping that there will be a karmic payback for those who brought this misfortune to these beautiful, innocent creatures.  But, just one look at that property manager and I know that it must be hell to be him. Being a jerk is a tough path.  And, if I can't feed the creatures anymore.. maybe he'll realize that, along with feeding the wildlife, I've been the one who's been picking up all the trash in the backyard.. and shoveling the sidewalk.. and I won't be doing that any more. TAKE THAT! Yeh, I'm cranky now! Grrrrrrrr. I've hated living in this place but I've stayed because I could feed the wildlife and watch over them from my apartment. Now that that's gone.. I'm as good as gone, too. It's time to relocate. It will be too heartbreaking watching them look for food when the snow starts falling.


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## Christina Coughlin (Dec 29, 2002)

This is not necessary in the USA. It does not need to be happening, there are so many other ways to provide nutrition for your family BUT... People already do this with chickens, ducks, geese, what about Veal calves? What about rabbits and goats? Why aren't we mad about that, aren't they just as important?  

If they were doing this for a very poor country to help feed people then I would not have any problem with this and I think that we would not even question it. But what about the others?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

*Feeding the birds*

I appreciate your frustration at being told not to feed the birds, but there may be a valid reason for it. We happily fed wild birds for years, and I'm sorry to say it caused several problems. One, it attracted Cooper's hawks to our yard in a big way. They learned to hunt at our feeders. But the worst thing was that we developed a terrible rat problem. They got into our garage and house. I appreciate wildlife, too, but I draw the line at being awakened at 4:00 a.m. by rats gnawing inside the walls!  It cost quite a bit to have an exterminator come out and block all entrances to our home. 

Rats and mice carry diseases and are a threat to our pigeons. They got into our old aviary a few years back and we think that's how our pigeons were infected with salmonella. They can't get into our loft, but we have seen them underneath it. I learned my lesson, took the feeders down, and now I make sure there is NO feed of any kind in the open in our yard. We still put out sugar water for the hummingbirds, but that's it. Unfortunately we can't do much about our neighbors, who distribute pounds of peanuts every day to the squirrels and crows.

So anyway, part of the rationale for a landlord or homeowner's association forbidding bird feeders may be to keep from attracting rodents. Remember that when you put out grain, you attract more than birds.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

I do agree with what you are saying about the rats, however, unlike many homes in the USA, Florida homes are built from concrete poured and block /rebar construction (hurricane code), and no wood is used. All the interior studs are made from aluminum, most homes do not have insulation between studs, or in rafters, just above the garages for fire hazard reasons, there are no basements and very few attics, basically they are built to keep anything out that can't walk through the front door, and our association just plane hates me =) (long history with them)

When I lived in oregon, we would get mice all the time around the horses grain barrels, and they gnawed their way through everything! House, tack, clothes, you name it they ate it. I could hear them scurry through the walls at night.

I certainly considered the whole rat thing, so my sollution was, feed only what can be consumed at one feeding, in my nieghbors yard (just kidding about the neighbors yard part)

Your point is quite valid though and something to be considered. As fo me since I pay a rediculous amount in association dues, they can afford to fix whatever. Besides, they send an extermination company through here monthly. The pesticide guy happens to like the pigeons, so he always skips my house =) Xavior only you know what your housing area is like and what dangers may come that way by feeding the babes, but I'll be thinking of possible ideas for you.

Do go for the native plants, put drain holes in the pots, and just keep trying. BTW, Florida Fish and Wildlife does have a certificate that they can issue to qualifying yards. I downloaded my questionaire and application last night after my last letter. Good grief, I might as well give up my kid to them, but I'm going to do it anyway. The only reason I mention Florida certificates is because I know there are people who live here as well, plus maybe your state has something available. Long Winded...Yong


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## xavior (Jul 14, 2004)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I appreciate your frustration at being told not to feed the birds, but there may be a valid reason for it. We happily fed wild birds for years, and I'm sorry to say it caused several problems. One, it attracted Cooper's hawks to our yard in a big way. They learned to hunt at our feeders. But the worst thing was that we developed a terrible rat problem. They got into our garage and house. I appreciate wildlife, too, but I draw the line at being awakened at 4:00 a.m. by rats gnawing inside the walls!  It cost quite a bit to have an exterminator come out and block all entrances to our home.
> 
> Rats and mice carry diseases and are a threat to our pigeons. They got into our old aviary a few years back and we think that's how our pigeons were infected with salmonella. They can't get into our loft, but we have seen them underneath it. I learned my lesson, took the feeders down, and now I make sure there is NO feed of any kind in the open in our yard. We still put out sugar water for the hummingbirds, but that's it. Unfortunately we can't do much about our neighbors, who distribute pounds of peanuts every day to the squirrels and crows.
> 
> So anyway, part of the rationale for a landlord or homeowner's association forbidding bird feeders may be to keep from attracting rodents. Remember that when you put out grain, you attract more than birds.


______________

I appreciate what you're saying but it's not the case here. IF there were a rodent problem, which there isn't, the stray cats would tend to that. The birds do an excellent job of eating all there is to eat. And I did take the birdfeeder down when the grackles started their killing spree. And the falcons were doing a lot of hunting around here one summer.. but that's why they were introduced to the city - to keep the pigeon population down.. and get the falcons off the endangered species list.

I don't think this guy would have a problem if the only birds coming to feed were the bluejays and cardinals.. and maybe sparrows. He hates the pigeons..


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Wow--I wish our house had been built like the ones in FL. Point well taken about putting out only what the birds will eat that day, not leaving it overnight. 

Homeowners' associations would drive me crazy. I could never live where there was one because they wouldn't even let us in, with all these birds. (We live in an older suburb.) I heard of someone here in CA who wound up selling their house and moving because their homeowners' association wouldn't let them park in their own driveway or on the street, only in the garage. When their teenager started driving they had no place for his car, so they sold the house and moved. Incredible.


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## Yong (Oct 15, 2003)

Homeowners' associations would drive me crazy.

You have no idea. yuh! Yong


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

Hi xavior 
Your Manager Sounds retarded i mean what said is just gibberish They'll manage with what they find in the dumpsters. i say we destroy his office and make it look like world
war 3 has took place there


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## lofus (Feb 8, 2005)

Try planting butterfly bushes. During the summer months they attract butterflies and durring the winter they provide a huge amount of seeds that birds love.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*What exactly are associations for?*

We live in a decent, older neighborhood that does have an association of somesorts, but not as strict as the associations in the "affluent" areas of Omaha.The only problem we encountered was about 5 years ago when someone complained about our small 23 passenger retired school bus that we acquired 8 years ago to transport neighborhood disatvantaged kids to a weekly roller skating session.We received a letter from the City citing us for the bus being parked in the back yard on the side of the house which our driveway leads to, so it was out of the way, not hurting anyboby. and I MIGHT ADD WE HAVE THE NICEST HOME ON THE BLOCK AT THAT! Well, we ended up going to city hall, along with all the skating group kids and many of their parents, and after listening to our plea, ended up granting us a waiver to allow parking the bus as long as we did not replace it with a larger one. My close friend and department associate lives in a stricter area. where they call theirs a "covenent" is aware of our love for nature and my pigeon which stays outdoors when it is nice has told me that my family and I WOULD NOT SURVIVE IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD!He jokingly says, "Victor, they would make you get rid of the pigeon, your wildlife feeding, your bus,and make you keep your dogs groomed in the winter! And about that old mustang that you have parked by your bus, well that would have to go too!!!!"It is terrible that we have these things going on in the United States of America.Errrrrrrr


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

can i hack it? 

why yes hack away with all you you got
thes people are sick


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

*You have my permission*

Unfortunately, squab meat has become a delicacy, especially in France. So you'll be hacking an awful lot of sites. They also sell cook books on squab meat.

I personally cannot look at a pigeon and see that cute trusting look they have and turn around and eat them.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Interesting thread , scarey but interesting. Sqaub farms have been around forever and are just leg of the agriculture base, and I have known a few that owned sqaub farms. I see here talk of hacking (which is illegal) and a petition against someones livelyhood. What I see here is illegally disrupting someones livleyhood and no one here stands up !! What is wrong with "this" picture ?

Where do do you think these type of people will stop ? You think they wouldn't love to step into every loft in the country ? You think that they want "you" keeping a pigeon even as a pet ? 

Now here is another question. Where do you think that the vast amount of knowledge as far as pigeons go has come from ? 


I'm just curious , how many people here support these type of people, or how many are "these" type of people ?


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

*banning the squabbing industry*

I think that the squab banning operation needs a wider appeal than those of us who love pigeons.

1. Squab is an unsanitary food. This is because the squabs are shipped live to the restaurant. The terrified birds poop a lot and are in the back of the restaurant where food is being prepared. Everyone has to see that this is unsanitary regardless of how they feel about pigeons. Who wants to eat fecal bacteria?

2. It is inhumane to separate dependent offspring from their parents and ship them live. When you relate this to people use puppies or kittens as an example then clue them in to the fact that this is happening to baby pigeons. If there was a practice of shipping live unweaned puppies and kittens for food purposes here in the States it would be banned in a hot second. MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT SQUABS ARE SHIPPED LIVE. You can help to change this simply by informing people (relate the squab to something fuzzy).

3. The squabs are not killed in a humane fashion. The people who are meteing out death to the birds is not trained to do so humanely. While people may think that it is fine to eat squab they probably won't want to participate in the torture of another living thing.


While I would be extremely happy if squabbing was banned, I would like it if the squabs were not shipped live.

Foie gra production and sales will be banned here in California, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I AM STANDING!!


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

*Alive?!!*

I had no idea they ship them alive and put them aside until it's time to have them cooked. I know it's none of my business but I really wish people wouldn't do this. But then again I'm partial to pigeons. I hate the idea of them being hurt in any way whatsoever.

Oh those poor birds.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Scott,

I understand the points you are trying to make, but I think you may be unnecessarily concerned with the start of this thread and any affects it may have on anyone's livelihood. This was first posted in July 2004 and if GroundZero has not been able to hack the squab site yet, I doubt they have any worries...I checked the site mentioned before I started this reply and it's up and running.
Also, 13 yr old David started this petition (apparently you can start a petition about ~anything~ by going to that site) and as of today, there are 36 signatures....again, I think the squab industry can breathe easy.

Hacking is illegal and no one should encourage it, you are right about that. We would all be pretty upset if someone who didn't like pigeons hacked and ruined Pigeons.com.
As far as the petition goes, I really don't think they usually count for much, besides letting the people who sign them express their opinions. Do I like the idea of squab farming or their methods? No. Did I sign the petition. Yes. Do I think it will really make any difference that I signed the petition? No.

Personally, I don't like the way lobsters are thrown alive into pots of boiling water when they are cooked....I can hardly think of a more barbaric practice than that of preparing an animal for consumption. I could probably go to that petition site and start a petition against cooking seafood alive, and some people would sign it, but again, I don't think the seafood industries would have anything to worry about.

So, I guess to answer your question....I do not support "hacking" of anyone's website, it is illegal. But, I don't see any problem in voicing a negative opinion in reference to squab farming. Many people here at the site are probably appalled at what is involved in squab farming and the idea of eating squabs because we are so involved with pigeons...but to play devil's advocate for a moment here, the poultry industry, the beef industry and pig farmers I am sure employ methods that would also be considered appalling and alot of us here on the site have no problems buying those chicken parts or that package of steak in the supermarket (vegan members excluded, of course.)

Leave it to you Scott, to make me have to get that brain in gear and "think." LOL

Linda


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Thanks for the reply Linda and as allways it was one that was thought out, Would I eat one? no, but nor do I care if others do. It must be kept in mind that some are playing stricty on peoples emotions to jerk puplic opinions to suit their agendas, and just because someone says that it is this way doesn't make it so. How many restruants do you think are actually pulling in squabs in the back door and butchering them in the kitchen ? The health dept. would have a little something to say about this don't you think ? Sure they can find examples, but that is all they are. The fact is they go through processing just like anything else and the FDA is involved. Personally I was glad that site was posted as that farm is about 40 miles from me and I plan on looking them up and would like to take a tour of their facility if that is possible and pick their brains on few pigeon questions. And I will probably buy a couple of pair, I havnt had any Kings since I was a kid but have allways enjoyed the "utility" breeds of which there are many.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Scott,

Just out of curiosity, what kind of useful advice would a place like that be able to offer a person who keeps a racing loft? Since they breed for food, not performance, I am just wondering what you are interested in learning....just being nosy..lol

Linda


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## rosey_love (Mar 21, 2004)

*Just Be Quiet!!!*

HAHAHA!!!! OH MY GOSH!!! I spit on the person who said they like squabs on the petition thinger, then they said get a life. I mean it is kinda weird to have a petition couse I never would have thought of it myself but if everyone said that and never took the time out of there life, just one minute im sure that the world would be a better place with pigeons and if more ppl owned them im sure that ppl would think different about them.  I hate hering from my friends mom:"Your pigeons and all pigeons are just *"diseas cariers"* and that they are *"RATS WITH WINGS."*
Seriously though, I just wanna call her a rat with wings or somthing worse like a ..... Ok ill staop myself But I hate how ppl judge everything and everyone all the time.
They think they are so dirty and things but look at what humans have done to this world. We put factories, roads, bridges, houses, and things that are not natural and then were do we put it later on?!?!?!


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Lots of good stuff Linda, keeping healthy, breeding healthy, nutrition, you name it , the more people that you associate yourself with that "breath" pigeons the more that you learn about these birds , and Linda you never quit learning. Do you think when a lively hood is at stake that the operation is haphazard ? maybe , but doubtful, I'll let you know though.

Linda have you ever seen the book " The Pigeon" by Levi , if you havn't pick it up and you will know why I suggested it when you start thumbing through this monster of a pigeon Book. Never has a book on "pigeons" ever came close to this one, and the fact is we owe the Palmetto Pigeon Plant for much of this knowledge, much of which is still used today, You won't believe what all is in that book and the depth of every detail of these birds that this book goes into.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thanks for the reply Scott....like I said, I was just curious. Also, thanks for the recommedation of "The Pigeon" by Levi....I have never seen it, but I think I will make it my business to acquire a copy. Thanks again.

Linda


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Linda trust me on that book , It is a classic


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Reply to Miss Rosey*

It impresses me when young people such as you and David post pigeon related stories here on PigeonTalk.com.Many young people see life ,including that of the pigeon, in a different perspective. Before my pigeon came into my life just last year, I never really thought that much about a pigeon. I stated somewhere here sometime back, that occasionally I would see a pigeon that had been struck down by a car, and fluttering.I was decent enough to drive around it, but now I actually scout around for the injured.So far, I have only picked up a squirrel, and unfortunately he was already dead. Yes,I do see pigeons in a different way now.Of course, 30 years ago I never would have dreamed of having a dog in the house.Now I would not even think about my dog outside.Yeah, people can change. Luckily for youth such as yourself, David, my kids, and grandchildren, you and they will be better people.You have a headstart, and that is great! Some of my co-workers make fun of that fact that I like pigeons, and also refer to them as "squab burgers" and "rats with wings"but we have to be resiliant and just let it bead off our backs just like water does on a pigeon.Calling your moms friend a "rat with wings, or something else like..." does not help the situation any.You just have to stay calm and strong and always remember that YOU ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE! there, enough said.You have a great life now,OK?


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