# something wrong with the baby's bottom



## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi,

I notice a boil or wound on my babies bottom last few days. i am worried about it. Pls help


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi warriec, 



Where is their Vent in relation to this?


Are they pooping alright, or is this blocking their Vent?


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Warrie,

Is it coming out of the cloaca? It looks like a cloacal canker nodule. Don't try to remove it just yet but treat with anti canker medication.

If you e-mail me your regular e-mail address I can send you scans of description and photographs of cloacal and navel canker from a good book...pigeons.biz e-mails can't carry attachments.

Cynthia


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

No canker medicine in Sri Lanka, please advise me an alternative.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Warren,

Canker is trichomoniasis, a condition caused by trichomonads which are a protozoa. Only an antiprotozoal will work, but there is a human condition caused by trichomonads and therefore there are anti protozoals to treat the human disease which will work on pigeons.

Metronidazole is one of the common antibiotics used in humans, in the UK we can get it with a vet's prescription or a doctor's prescription. I don't know how it works in Sri Lanka but they will have it at a pharmacy, it is getting hold of it that might be difficult.

Other anti protozoals are carnidazole and dimetridazole.

I think it will take too long for remedies sent from the UK on Monday to reach you in time to help this little one, but if you pm me your address I can send some for you to have on hand in the future.

Cynthia


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I once bought Metronidazole base cream. how does it come - cream or tablet form.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I've only seen the tablets. I had no idea it can come in cream form too.

Reti


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I am hoping to caht with my cousin who is a dr in UK doing his PHD, i will ask him for how this comes but i will need you guys to give me the dosage.


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm

Here's a page with dosages listed for many medications for pigeons

If you have trouble accessing that page, here's just the information for canker.

Drugs used against Trichomonas (Canker organisms) and Hexamita : 

All these drugs, except Spartrix, must be administered for 3-5 days or more in the drinking water; although metronidazole ( Flagyl ) can be dosed individually for 1-2 days and is at least as effective as Spartrix. Ronidazole ( Ridsol ) is the safest product (more is needed to produce toxic effects). Overdose of Emtryl or Flagyl can occur more easily. Toxic levels produce central nervous signs which usually reverse after discontinuance, but can result in death. 

Dimetridazole (Emtryl): 3/4 tsp per gallon (4 litres) for 5-7 days (Canadian Emtryl – 40% water-soluble powder). You can use this dosage for 1-2 days early in the week, eg. Sun-Mon, every 2-3 weeks throughout the race season. 

Ronidazole (Ridsol): 400 mg per gallon - 2 tsp per gallon (4 liters). Use 5 days before the season and for 2 days every 2 weeks throughout the season. 

Metronidazole (Flagyl): 25-50 mg per pigeon per day - 1250-2500 mg per gallon (4 liters) for 4-6 days. 

Carnidazole (Spartrix): One 10 mg tablet per pigeon preferably on empty crop. Not as effective as treatment in drinking water.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Thanks. I found flagyl 400mg. Its does not desolve too well in water. i can give 1/8th of a tablet daily. Will this be ok. how often should i give flagyl.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Do i need to treat the whole flock for this. If so how could i as flagyl does not mix with water well


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you know how much the bird weighs?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Warriec, if you have a baby w/canker, I would flock treat for canker. This
baby didn't pick it up out of the ethers...it was passed to the baby. Because
pigeons live w/canker in a host equilibrium state, the organism is always present
and moves into the disease state when the bird becomes stressed or is battling
w/other health issues.

You can put the Metronidazole cream on the canker nodule and keep that bird
isolated from the rest if at all possible. Even to have in a cage inside the loft
area. How is the inside of the throat, upper/lower mandibles?

From this link to an article by Gordon Chalmers:

http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm

"Metronidazole (Flagyl): 25-50 mg per pigeon per day - 1250-2500 mg per gallon (4 liters) for 4-6 days. "

Have a looksee at the article, it also has some good dosing instructions/information in general.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

its a 3 week old baby who is sick with canker. I am starting medication in a few hours times. going to give the pill manually to him. I guess 1 (400mg) tablet crushed and mixed with 1 litre water should help the other birds too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How many other birds do you have to treat?

Pidgey


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Flock is about 60 birds in 3 lofts


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've never been happy with the way that actual Flagyl tablets seem not to dissolve in water, even when finely crushed. And goodness knows, it's a absolute pain in the hiney to dose that many birds the hard way. People have worked around that by making a powder to coat the feed with and sticking it to the grains with an oil. That's another method and could be more reliable than using it in the water. fp has promoted something like that, I'd suggest asking about it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, not exactly a promotion but a revelation that on the package of
powdered Metronidazole that is put out by DAC, it specifically states that
it can be administered through dusting the seeds. There are others here that
also treat w/this method. I've used it though I've also used the medication
in water delivery method as well. 

What you might want to do is treat the baby individually and hold off on the
flock treatment while you look into other forms of Metronidazole. One is
made specifically for Aquarium use and disolves well in water....or look into
seeing if you can get liquid Flagyl (another name for Metronidazole), you
might also see if you can get Flagyl or Ronidazole in powder form for the 
flock.

Crushing the pill isnt' going to work well for flock treatment on food because
of the amount of food to dust and the concentration of the medicine along with the lack of uniformity in the med when grinding by hand.... It
wasn't meant for that application, jmo.

Do you have a needle-less syringe?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I figured that it might be possible to mix it with flour or some other edible powder to cut it so that it could be given via the feed. Never did that, huh?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That would be my least desirable choice. I think it to be a sloppy way to go
without great reassurance that the med was delivered as actually intended, jmo.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of course it would. But when you live in someplace like Sri Lanka... your options might be a little on the limited side.

I guess I'd want to run a test on the Flagyl by way weighing the pill very accurately (find somebody with a precise-enough scale, if need be), crushing said pill, dissolving it as well as possible in some water, letting it settle for a day, draining off the topwater until I had isolated all the visible left-over stuff in the bottom, drying that down until it was completely dry and then weighing it again. Then, you can compare that to the formulation to see if it matches the value of the excipients.

The few times that I've tried mashing and mixing Flagyl tablets, it's always looked like it didn't dissolve at all. That's why I've never trusted that method with that exact pill.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

This is why I am suggesting that Warriec hold off on the treatment of the flock
until he has a chance to look into the availability of the other types of medication. If he finds Aquarium grade Metronidazole....voila...it mixes well
w/water. So would the liquid flagyl. If he finds it in the powderized format,
then we can work w/that as well w/food dusting.

Warriec, do you have a needleless syringe? If so, you can quarter one of the
pills and grind it together with one whole pill. This will give you 500 mg's of the medicine. By mixing 500mg's w/20 cc's of water, you can follow the following dosing table furnished in one of TAW's posts:

"Using this strength of solution the following amounts would be given twice per day for the various weights:

100 grams - 0.2 cc
150 grams - 0.3 cc
200 grams - 0.4 cc
250 grams - 0.5 cc
300 grams - 0.6 cc
350 grams - 0.7 cc
400 grams - 0.8 cc
450 grams - 0.9 cc
500 grams - 1.0 cc"

Terry's dosing was w/a 250mg tablet & 10cc's of water which is why I had you add twenty cc's of water to achieve the same concentration. This dosing table is at the recommended dosing strength of 50mg per kilogram.

You definitely need a needleless syringe for this or a dropper w/gradation
marks on the side. You can use the above method for treating the
baby until a better way to treat the loft is looked into. It can't hurt to
investigate the availability of the other formats that Metronidazole/Flagyl
is available in and could potentially be a really big help.

fp


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In this advanced stage as it looks like bleeding is happening now. The canker is advanced. And blow flies even set in and magets will occur. Surgery is the key at this stage. Meds will not help at this stage the bird would suffer. Vent canker can get as large as an egg does it seem large. All I can say the bird will get worse. I really never seen meds help in the late stage where the canker is pushing the rectom outwards and bleeding is starting. .


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Warriec does have the ability to treat locally w/Metronidazole cream in addition
to orally. 

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Today morning the baby had died. I started treating the remaining babies with 1/8 of a tablet - i just need to know how many times a day. Regarding the flock - i figure i need to practice the method how i give worm treatment - give water twice a day and just the right amount so that the med does not have time to settle. Problem is i need to crush the tablet using a grinder and i need to do 20 tabs a time and assumely pinch out the equivlent and mix with water.

Will this be good.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Warriec, I'm sorry to hear about your baby dying today. Regarding splitting the
pill into eight pieces and dosing w/that, this would be a full 50mg's per bird
when the dosage is 50mg per kilogram. I don't know what weight your birds
are, but I'm thinking this is just way too much.

Have you tried to see if you can get Flagyl in liquid form or in Aquarium grade
form?

I don't think you will get this stuff to keep from separating/settling in the
water which in the long run won't be good for your flock.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

i dont think its possible to find a liquid based medicine. Only way i can think of is really powder it and mix with water and give it to the birds when they are really thirsty. It seem that it has worked quiet well in the morning. Parents feed the young soon as they drink the med so i assume the baies get the med too.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Warriec, I can't remember how many pigeons you are talking about dosing but we use Metronidazole and I have found it really easy to use. It is a pain in the posterior to medicate, say 30 birds, and takes time but at least you are assured that they are getting it directly into their system.

We use a 250 mg. tablet. I crush it into a fine powder using a mortar and pestle but you can use a spoon in a shallow cup to do the same thing. Put the powder in a small, sterile pill bottle, and add 10 cc of water. Each time you pull up the amount you need to give each pigeon, based on their body weight, you have to shake the bottle really well and immediately draw up the medicine and give it to the pigeon. Keep it refrigerated at all times. You may need to make two batches depending on the number of pigeons. Bad part about it is you have to give it for 7 - 10 days.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Whats the worse thing that can happen in an over dose & how much do u need to over dose, any symtoms


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> i dont think its possible to find a liquid based medicine. Only way i can think of is really powder it and mix with water and give it to the birds when they are really thirsty. It seem that it has worked quiet well in the morning. Parents feed the young soon as they drink the med so i assume the baies get the med too.


If you can indeed find the powder, you can coat the seeds after a very light
oiling. There is actually a liquid Flagyl and an Aquarium grade one. If you
can ask and see, you really should for what you are attempting to do. The
format you have will not suspend in the water and they will not get the
right dose.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> Whats the worse thing that can happen in an over dose & how much do u need to over dose, any symtoms



I posted that chart so that you woud be able to dose by syringe w/the
pills that you have which come in 400 mg's. By quartering one of your
pills and crushing one full pill and one quarter pill and then adding 20
cc's of water, you will be able to draw up according to the chart of Terry's
by weight.

You will most definitely OD your birds giving as much as you are suggesting.
Central Nervous System symptoms result from too much of this medicine.
Flagyl and Dimetridazole are apparently not considered as safe as Ronidazole
or Carnidazole.

Warriec, you need to get the right format for flock treating. What your
describing is the wrong dose, wrong format. I hope you will try and check
into the liquid, Aquarium grade or powder. Also, if you run into Ronidazole
in powder format, that would be great.

fp


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