# Unexpected young one - Roller



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Attached is a picture of a nice pied blue bar young one. I've attached a picture of the parents. Other young from this pair include red grizzles, a pied mealy and a tort - and a blue bar?????

John


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm no genetic specialist, but I'd just like to point out that your birds look amazing!


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Gurbir. I never expected the blue bar from this pair. It is a nice one.

John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

They are both t pattern split for bar. Gives you 25% pure bar pattern.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Print Tippler, thanks for the reply. I'm not surprised with the bar, just didn't expect a blue bar. Here is a picture of an early round from this pair. 

John


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

your red cock bird is split ash red/ blue.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

What would you call the hen???


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Oh, we'll the tort you have is also blue based so you already had a blue. Torts are blue based color, t pattern, grizzle, kite bronze. Your set up to get a good verity it looks like.

The red bird in the top picture is an baldhead ash red velvet ( tpattern). Also has white flights and white tail but that's assumed mostly by saying bald head since most have those.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

johnbt said:


> What would you call the hen???


she's a t-pattern grizzle pied, not quite a baldhead.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

It's arbitrary. Also depends if we're talking phenotype or genotype. How much is understood about baldhead genotype to say if it is or not?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks for your help again,

John


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> It's arbitrary. Also depends if we're talking phenotype or genotype. How much is understood about baldhead genotype to say if it is or not?


I expect the question to be based on how the bird look, hence the question is not "
What do you think the hen is carrying".... and as the baldhead, again the comment is also phenotype in nature as if she has a white head she will be baldhead marked.

Quite obvious I thought, just like we can call the cock bird t-pat ash red without going into details about his split bar/ dilute/ blue, etc.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I thought the hen was the ash red??? Looks like there's a confusion. Yeah hen would have to be the blue now that I think. I only said the ash red bird was a baldhead.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

The only reason I thought the blue is the hen is because she looks a bit like a t-pat silver..... and looking at the offsprings mentioned I don't see any dilute in there.....


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

So just to be clear... I originally said the ash red bird was a baldhead. But then you said the blue hen wasn't quite a baldhead... Right? Or are you saying the ash red t pattern is not a baldhead?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

So is the hen a t-pattern grizzle pied?

John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Depends how simply you want to put it. Blue t pattern piebald heterygous grizzle with white flights and tail. Not sure if the head has piebald in it or not from the picture since the grizzle is there. The young ash red bar and the blue bar both have what people (pertically roller people) call a badge head.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Would I be best to pair her with another grizzle to breed some young like her? I have bred quite a few grizzles like the one in the back ground. Most have a little more white than this bird though. 

John


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> So just to be clear... But then you said the blue hen wasn't quite a baldhead... Right?


yep, this one.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Would I be best to pair her with another grizzle to breed some young like her?
> 
> John


no, just leave the pair, you're not upping your chances mating her with another grizzle if you want birds her colour (50%). 
She's a hetero grizzle, the peppery colour on the head and shield is the effect of grizzle if you pair her with another grizzle, you'll get 25% **** grizzle (a lot of white, 50% het grizzle (like her) & 25% non grizzle. The other bird in the background is not a grizzle.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The bird in the background on post 18 looks grizzle to me. A very fine grizzle. John - have you a close up pic of the wing shield?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

johnbt said:


> Would I be best to pair her with another grizzle to breed some young like her? I have bred quite a few grizzles like the one in the back ground. Most have a little more white than this bird though.
> 
> 
> 
> John


Definitely a grizzle in background, but the other it is dificult to tell with the wings folded, I'd say, probably not a grizzle.

Grizzle is very easy to distinguish, close p. A grizzle bird will *always* have *all* it's coloured feathers grizzled. This means that looking at a single feather, the proximal end (closest to the body) will be very white, and more colour as you move away from the body.

Grizzle affects darker pattern less than lighter patterns. Some very dark T-pattern grizzles show little visible grizzling until you look at a single coloured feather closely. Simlarly, black grizzles show very little grizzling when the body and long feathers are nicely arranged, but pull a feather from the wing shield, or look at remiges or retrices, and you will find the grizzle at the bottom of the feather.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Definitely a grizzle in background, but the other it is dificult to tell with the wings folded, I'd say, probably not a grizzle.
> 
> Grizzle is very easy to distinguish, close p. A grizzle bird will *always* have *all* it's coloured feathers grizzled. This means that looking at a single feather, the proximal end (closest to the body) will be very white, and more colour as you move away from the body.
> 
> Grizzle affects darker pattern less than lighter patterns. Some very dark T-pattern grizzles show little visible grizzling until you look at a single coloured feather closely. Simlarly, black grizzles show very little grizzling when the body and long feathers are nicely arranged, but pull a feather from the wing shield, or look at remiges or retrices, and you will find the grizzle at the bottom of the feather.


Yes the one on the left in the pic on its own looks like tiger grizzle, Maybe grizzle aswell but like Rudolph has said, Without seeing a spread wing it looks asthough not all the feathers have white.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I'll take a picture of the hens extended wing later. The picture of two birds was only to show the grizzle in the background. The bird at the front, its nest mate, is a blue checker pied. The parents of these birds are a grizzle hen and a cock that is very white blue checker pied (has white wings), body, tail and chest. He nearly looks like he's black as the only colour is on the back of the neck, a couple of blue feathers on the shoulders suggests overwise. Each round I get a blue checker pied and a grizzle, both cocks and hens is both colours. They are all similiar, just the amount of white varies. They are really young nice birds. I have stopped breeding now but raised 6 rounds from this pair and used them as feeders for another pair. I'll get some pictures once they have had a feed after they fly. Going to let them out now.

John


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> The bird in the background on post 18 looks grizzle to me. A very fine grizzle. John - have you a close up pic of the wing shield?


you could be right... or it might be a young silver...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

nzpouter said:


> you could be right... or it might be a young silver...


It is definitely grizzle, and I agree that it might be dilute aswell. That would make it a silver grizzle in some parlance.

It is difficult to tell for sure whether the birds is indeed dilute from that picture though.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

nzpouter said:


> you could be right... or it might be a young silver...


Yeah could be silver grizzle for sure.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

The two kits of young birds have been flown, all back safe and well and pictures taken. I don't know how to manage the photos on this forum. I've made them smaller but any smaller it will be difficult to see the detail. I'll see how many I can upload. If I run out of room I'll have to start deleting the earlier ones.

Thanks for the time you are prepared to spend on these queries.

This picture is the hen/ mother of the young ones.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> The two kits of young birds have been flown, all back safe and well and pictures taken. I don't know how to manage the photos on this forum. I've made them smaller but any smaller it will be difficult to see the detail. I'll see how many I can upload. If I run out of room I'll have to start deleting the earlier ones.
> 
> Thanks for the time you are prepared to spend on these queries.
> 
> This picture is the hen/ mother of the young ones.


In no expert on tiger grizzle but I cannot see white on all feathers so If i had to put money on it I would go wtih TG not grizzle.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

These following pictures are of the mother of the grizzle and blue checker pied in #18 and her grizzle young ones breed this season.

There will also be a picture which is pretty typical of the blue checker pieds I get from this hen and the cock she is paired with. If I have room I'll put up a picture of him as well.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> In no expert on tiger grizzle but I cannot see white on all feathers so If i had to put money on it I would go wtih TG not grizzle.


The bird normally looks just black and white, It's moulting and looked a little greyish today.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I've tried to get some more detail?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

This thread is starting to confuse me. I no longer know which bird we are talking about. Or what the question is anymore 

John, a good way to solve this, I have found, is to create an album on my profile here, and add caprions that are questions to the pictures. This allows people to comment on each picture directly instead of doing it in these threads. It is alease easier to fiew a whole family in the album view.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Rudolph, your confused, I haven't a clue anymore,

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2058


More pictures of young breed from the red checker and grizzle hen. Quite a variety!


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> This thread is starting to confuse me. I no longer know which bird we are talking about. Or what the question is anymore
> 
> John, a good way to solve this, I have found, is to create an album on my profile here, and add caprions that are questions to the pictures. This allows people to comment on each picture directly instead of doing it in these threads. It is alease easier to fiew a whole family in the album view.


Rudolph, I started the thread initially to show the blue bar that I raised from the Red Checker Pied and Grizzle Hen. The topic then centred around the hen. Is she a grizzle? What is the difference between a grizzle and tiger grizzle? I have added an album showing all the young I've raised from this pair this season.

Thanks,

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here are pictures of the pair again.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2062


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Here are pictures of the pair again.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2062


The blue bird looks tiger grizzle but could also be grizzle, hard to tell without seeing the wing feathers close up as it is T pattern which can hide grizzle a lot.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan, I'll get someone to help me hold the bird on the weekend and try and take a better picture. I was looking at her today and chest seems grizzled, just darker with less light markings than a normal grizzle feather.

John


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

johnbt said:


> Rudolph, I started the thread initially to show the blue bar that I raised from the Red Checker Pied and Grizzle Hen. The topic then centred around the hen. Is she a grizzle? What is the difference between a grizzle and tiger grizzle? I have added an album showing all the young I've raised from this pair this season.


I'll explain grizzle and tiger grizzle again.

A heterosygous grizzle (G) bird shows a white salt and pepper effect on every coloured feather. The base of a grizzle feather is always white or near white, and it darkens (to the normal colour) toward the tip of the feather. Grizzle affects lighter areas of the feather more than the dark areas of a feather. Thus a blue bar grizzle is often a near white bird with neas solid black bars, and lots of salt and pepper grizzling all over the white parts. Spread and dirty inhibit grizzle to some extent. Some heterozygous spread blue grizzles show the salt and pepper effect only on the head.

Homozygous grizzles are near white birds and only show proper melanin colour on the very tip of the long feeathers (tail and flight feathers). This is often called a stork marking. Depeding on the other factors present, homozygous grizzles are white to light grey grizzled over the rest of the feathers.

Tiger grizzle turns different feathers white, giving a chequerboard pattern. The entire feather is either coloured or white, but never a micture of the two. They do not feather in as tiger grizzles, instead the white feathers show up at the first moult. Tiger grizzle does not affect the tail.

I have never seen a homozygous tiger myself, and cannot find a definite picture online. I assume that they will be very white with a few coloured feathers.

Lastly when combining tiger grizzle and grizzle on the same bird, you get a tiger grizzle with the colored feathers [classically] grizzled. I also am unable to find a confirmed picture online for this phenotype.

Read Mosca's and Huntley's description of grizzle, for pictures and more info.

I have commented on the picture of your hen, which I believe is a Tiger.


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