# The feel of a pigeon



## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I have been checking my birds over the last few days and I have noticed that I can feel the breastbone or keel fairly sharply defined. Should that be the case or should the birds have a little more meat on them?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

DynaBMan said:


> I have been checking my birds over the last few days and I have noticed that I can feel the breastbone or keel fairly sharply defined. Should that be the case or should the birds have a little more meat on them?



Well, that depends on a few things. Are these flyers and are they flying? Are these breeders? Are they young birds? Have you cut back on thier food for any reason? 
Once I thought my YB racers were to "skinny"........I didn't say anything......just let an old time flyer handle some of them, then asked how they "felt" to him. He said, "they feel like they do a lot of flying"..........never had any problem with them.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You should feel good solid muscle around the keel if your birds are flying and excercising well. It should not feel soft or bone hard with prominent keel defined.

What is their behavior like and their poops?


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

> Well, that depends on a few things. Are these flyers and are they flying? Are these breeders? Are they young birds? Have you cut back on their food for any reason?
> Once I thought my YB racers were to "skinny"........I didn't say anything......just let an old time flyer handle some of them, then asked how they "felt" to him. He said, "they feel like they do a lot of flying"..........never had any problem with them.


These birds are flying almost every day, especially since the time has changed and I get home in time to let them out before they eat. I have one that was born around the 1st of February and the rest are last years birds. I do have some three pair that are sitting eggs and the rest are not mated. I was feeding them heavier than normal through the winter, with extra corn, but now I have switched them to Purina Nutri Blend. There isn't any picking around with the feed that way.



> You should feel good solid muscle around the keel if your birds are flying and excercising well. It should not feel soft or bone hard with prominent keel defined.
> 
> What is their behavior like and their poops?


The keel isn't prominently defined, as in protruding, but it can be felt with no problem. As far as their behavior goes, they seem to be acting normal, no moping around and their poops may be a little looser than normal, but I did just change their feed in the last couple of weeks, so that may have something to do with it.

Something else that has been on my mind that may have some bearing is how hungry they have been acting. I lower the landing board and open the trap and they are very quick to come out and they act like they are simply starving. I have eleven birds and I have been feeding them eleven ounces of the feed. They always clean it up within five minutes and I remove the feeder. The last several days, they actually have cut back on the flying because they are wanting to eat so badly. This evening, I put out thirteen ounces and they cleaned that up in less than five minutes as well. Maybe I should feed them a bit more?


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2007)

have they ever been wormed ?? just a thought


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LokotaLoft said:


> have they ever been wormed ?? just a thought


Boy...our minds are running on the same wave length tonight. My thoughts too. I would worm them and then see if they still behave the same way. 
Also, how long are they flying? If they are flying 15 minutes or a short time, then they aren't expending any real energy, BUT, if they are flying an hour or longer, then they are burning some energy and may need a little extra.
I've had the same problem with my first round. First time out, they got spooked and took off. Since that day, they don't want to fly at all. They stand on the landing board and as soon as I call them, they come in like gang busters. I've started adding one ounce per day more until I find the right amount. I'm not REAL anxious for them to take of flying just yet........only been out of the loft 4 times.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

LokotaLoft said:


> have they ever been wormed ?? just a thought


No, they haven't. Could that be the problem?


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> Boy...our minds are running on the same wave length tonight. My thoughts too. I would worm them and then see if they still behave the same way.
> Also, how long are they flying? If they are flying 15 minutes or a short time, then they aren't expending any real energy, BUT, if they are flying an hour or longer, then they are burning some energy and may need a little extra.
> I've had the same problem with my first round. First time out, they got spooked and took off. Since that day, they don't want to fly at all. They stand on the landing board and as soon as I call them, they come in like gang busters. I've started adding one ounce per day more until I find the right amount. I'm not REAL anxious for them to take of flying just yet........only been out of the loft 4 times.


They are only flying a short time. There are times, such as on Saturday or Sunday mornings, when I have time to let them out in the AM, they do take off and fly for quite a while. In the PM, they are not flying that long.

As far as wormers go, is there something I could get at Atwood's or some other feed store that would do the job? I really don't want to order something online because the freight is so high. What are your suggestions?


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi LJ, I also have seen this in my birds. the breastbone is promimant but they are full. they are also well fed - unfornately i had a bout of diseases in the last few months which is rectifying themself. Not all birds were effected.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

DynaBMan said:


> They are only flying a short time. There are times, such as on Saturday or Sunday mornings, when I have time to let them out in the AM, they do take off and fly for quite a while. In the PM, they are not flying that long.
> 
> As far as wormers go, is there something I could get at Atwood's or some other feed store that would do the job? I really don't want to order something online because the freight is so high. What are your suggestions?



The only one I know of is Ivomec. Here we have Southern States and Tractor Supply which sells horse, cattle and chicken "stuff"........The Ivomec can be bought at these places. I expect you could get it at Atwoods.? But it's about $50 a bottle, BUT.....it lasts forever and ever cause you just give drops. It's not something that you put in water. Each bird has to be dosed individually.
Treesa can tell you some natural things to use I believe. Maybe she'll see this and chime in. 
I personally use the Moxidectin from Seigels.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> The only one I know of is Ivomec. Here we have Southern States and Tractor Supply which sells horse, cattle and chicken "stuff"........The Ivomec can be bought at these places. I expect you could get it at Atwoods.? But it's about $50 a bottle, BUT.....it lasts forever and ever cause you just give drops. It's not something that you put in water. Each bird has to be dosed individually.
> Treesa can tell you some natural things to use I believe. Maybe she'll see this and chime in.
> I personally use the Moxidectin from Seigels.


Thanks for the tips, Renee. I would much rather be able to give the wormer in the water, so I will look at what you suggested. Maybe Treesa can give me some tips about what natural things I could use as well. Thanks again.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

DynaBMan said:


> Thanks for the tips, Renee. I would much rather be able to give the wormer in the water, so I will look at what you suggested. Maybe Treesa can give me some tips about what natural things I could use as well. Thanks again.


If you decide to order, get the Moxidectin Plus........they didn't have the "Plus" when I ordered. Next time I'll go with that. The Moxidectin goes in the water, .5 ml to a liter and leave in front of birds for 24 hours. I guess it works cause far as I know, I don't have a worm problem.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

The one we use is Chapparell tea, if you can find the tea itself at a health food store, that would be easier then individiually giving them the capsules. The capsule is the only thing I have found so far.

You might want to worm them with the basic pigeon wormer you can find at the pigeon supply houses, be sure to follow dosing instructions carefully.

I don't usually recommend them when birds are sick, but yours are healthy and it is easier to just do the whole flock treatment.

Make sure to give your birds some pro-biotics on a regular basis, also. That will help with watery poops, and some ACV in the water a couple of days a week.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> The one we use is Chapparell tea, if you can find the tea itself at a health food store, that would be easier then individiually giving them the capsules. The capsule is the only thing I have found so far.
> 
> You might want to worm them with the basic pigeon wormer you can find at the pigeon supply houses, be sure to follow dosing instructions carefully.
> 
> ...


I have found the pro-biotics in the catalog at Siegel Pigeons, but what is ACV? I tried a search here on the forums, but it says the word or letters are too common to search for.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> The one we use is Chapparell tea, if you can find the tea itself at a health food store, that would be easier then individiually giving them the capsules. The capsule is the only thing I have found so far.
> 
> You might want to worm them with the basic pigeon wormer you can find at the pigeon supply houses, be sure to follow dosing instructions carefully.
> 
> ...


I have found the pro-biotics in the catalog at Siegel Pigeons, but what is ACV? I tried a search here on the forums, but it says the word or letters are too common to search for.

EDIT: I have been giving the birds organic vinegar in their water about once a week, with a little melaleuca oil (three or four drops) mixed in. You can read about the oil at the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melaleuca_oil


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> The one we use is Chapparell tea, if you can find the tea itself at a health food store, that would be easier then individiually giving them the capsules. The capsule is the only thing I have found so far.
> 
> You might want to worm them with the basic pigeon wormer you can find at the pigeon supply houses, be sure to follow dosing instructions carefully.
> 
> ...


I was able to find the Chapparell tea at our local health food store. It is in the powder or the cut and sifted. If I get the powder, can I put it in their water and if so, how much?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I would use the herb tea itself-not powder, make a nice tea out of it-per instructions, then cut dose with plain water and serve.

The birds should get 1/4th of a human dose, and you can do that by adding the tea to their drinking water.

Keep a close eye on them, and don't allow them to fly the day you give it to them. Make sure they have no access to other water sources. Change water out for the afternoon feed. They may or may not get the full dose which is 20cc's but I would not give them anymore then one serving.

Do not give to the breeders, only adult single pigeons.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> I would use the herb tea itself-not powder, make a nice tea out of it-per instructions, then cut dose with plain water and serve.
> 
> The birds should get 1/4th of a human dose, and you can do that by adding the tea to their drinking water.
> 
> ...


Therein lies the problem. I have all of my birds in one loft and simply no way to seperate them at all. Of course, I really don't know for sure they have worms, so I don't know what to do. Maybe I could give them some garlic? Would that help?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

I think this is one of those times that I would get some good stool samples and send them to a lab and find out for sure what you are dealing with. I hate spending the money too, but at least you wouldn't be unneccessarily treating your birds for problems they don't have. 

Just my 2 cents.

Dan


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

DynaBMan said:


> Therein lies the problem. I have all of my birds in one loft and simply no way to seperate them at all. Of course, I really don't know for sure they have worms, so I don't know what to do. Maybe I could give them some garlic? *Would that help?*



Absolutely. I would go ahead and try the garlic, you can either give a soft-gel capsule to those birds you are suspicious of having worms, or put a small cut up clove in the water. Have you ever used garlic before? It is a wonderful aid in keeping parasites/worms away, not to mention a natural antibiotic. There are only a few of us who have actually used it short and long term, and I have seen the results on our birds personally. It is part of my prevention program, as well as an aid in supportive care.





learning said:


> I think this is one of those times that[/B] I would get some good stool samples and send them to a lab and find out for sure what you are dealing with.*I hate spending the money too, but at least you wouldn't be unneccessarily treating your birds for problems they don't have.
> Just my 2 cents.
> Dan*


*


Hi Dan,

You are absolutely right, a diagnosis is the first step in proper treatment. Meanwhile, using a tool like garlic for prevention as well as for worming, is not spending money foolishly, and you are getting results.*


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Just a quick update first, before I get to the questions. I turned the birds out tonight and although they did circle for a few minutes, it didn't take them long to come back in and want to eat. I put out 16 ounces of the Purinia Nutri Blend and they cleaned it up in less than five minutes. That was for eleven birds. They are acting just fine, but they also act as if they are starving and I promise you, I try my best to feed and take care of them.



> Absolutely. I would go ahead and try the garlic, you can either give a soft-gel capsule to those birds you are suspicious of having worms, or put a small cut up clove in the water. Have you ever used garlic before? It is a wonderful aid in keeping parasites/worms away, not to mention a natural antibiotic. There are only a few of us who have actually used it short and long term, and I have seen the results on our birds personally. It is part of my prevention program, as well as an aid in supportive care.


I have been thinking about using garlic, but I haven't tried it yet. I have a 1.5 liter waterer. How much should I cut up and drop in? Will it just dissolve in the water?



> Do not give to the breeders, only adult single pigeons.


Can you explain why I can't give the chapparell to the birds that are breeding and raising young? I don't mean to question you, but I have no way of separating the birds at this time and I really would like to stay as natural as possible. Also, if the chapparell is not safe for the breeders, how about Moxidectin or something like that?


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Just a thought, but could my birds actions be due to the fact that I just feed them once per day? Every once in a while, I may split it up and feed them twice per day but not very often. Would it make a difference if I tried feeding them twice per day? Just thinking aloud.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2007)

I would at least try the Moxidectin since you have yet to ever worm your birds so far and your birds are healthy .. worms are stealing the nutrition from everything your birds are eating thus they may be craving more .Its just a start but then you can go with the garlic from there if you so choose to do so and moxidectin has yet to effect any young that I have had in the nest so far ,thou I do try to worm them before I choose to let anything hatch for the most part . This is just what I would but you have to decide for yourself in the long run which is better for you


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2007)

I think most split their feedings between morning and night ,so you could try that too , thats what I do ,so maybe you wanna give that a try but I do think worming is important too


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I do the same thing..........feed once a day. While I was teaching my young birds to trap, I fed twice a day, just so they had to trap twice, but once we started letting them out of the loft, I cut back to once a day. We can't fly our YB's in the afternoon because we have them on lights, and if one or two want to stay out, they don't realize that it WILL get dark way before they are used to, and won't trap because of nightfall. Been there.......done that.......LOL
That's why I started feeding a little more. I was feeding 33 birds 33 ounces. I'm now feeding 30 birds 32 ounces and they don't seem AS hungry, but will still trap fairly easy.
Once I got my YB's all eating and drinking good, I did worm them. We've got some cold weather coming this week end.......down in the 20's at night, so I will up there feed quite a bit the next few days. It's also raining so they won't be getting out of the loft anyway.
I personally don't feel that it's a good idea to switch thier feed times around. They get used to a routine and if they are getting fed 2 times a day some days and once a day sometimes, they get confused. JMO.....


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

LokotaLoft said:


> I would at least try the Moxidectin since you have yet to ever worm your birds so far and your birds are healthy .. worms are stealing the nutrition from everything your birds are eating thus they may be craving more .Its just a start but then you can go with the garlic from there if you so choose to do so and moxidectin has yet to effect any young that I have had in the nest so far ,thou I do try to worm them before I choose to let anything hatch for the most part . This is just what I would but you have to decide for yourself in the long run which is better for you


I appreciate the advice. All of it. 

I am going to try to find a generic version of the Moxidectin locally so I don't have to order something online. Not sure if I am going to have any luck. I am still interested in why I can't give the Chapparall to the birds that are breeding. I have easy access to it, in two different forms. I don't have any babies yet, they are going to be hatching sometime next week.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

DynaBMan said:


> I am still interested in why I can't give the Chapparall to the birds that are breeding. I have easy access to it, in two different forms. I don't have any babies yet, they are going to be hatching sometime next week.



I am too..........I found this, but I'm not "into" the natural healing products, so don't know really........
http://www.wellnessgrocer.com/healthnotes.php?org=wellnessgrocer&ContentID=2067001


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

Perhaps it'd be too strong for the babies?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

DynaBMan said:


> I appreciate the advice. All of it.
> 
> I am going to try to find a generic version of the Moxidectin locally so I don't have to order something online. Not sure if I am going to have any luck. I am still interested in why I can't give the Chapparall to the birds that are breeding. I have easy access to it, in two different forms. I don't have any babies yet, they are going to be hatching sometime next week.


If you don't have babies, well no problem then. I thought they had youngsters. It would be too harsh to "worm" babies thru the parents feeding them.

You can cut up a clove of garlic to put in the waterer


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> If you don't have babies, well no problem then. I thought they had youngsters. It would be too harsh to "worm" babies thru the parents feeding them.
> 
> You can cut up a clove of garlic to put in the waterer


Thank you, Treesa. That sets my mind at ease and helps me figure this thing out. You said to use the leaves and not the powder, right? The health food store I am going to get it at sells it for .95 per ounce, in the bulk. I am not sure if they will have instructions for making the tea, but I would suppose boiling water would do the trick.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I would ask them for instructions on making a human dose, and yes, boil some purified water, steep it, and then add enough cold water to cut the dose to 1/4th human serving.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> I would ask them for instructions on making a human dose, and yes, boil some purified water, steep it, and then add enough cold water to cut the dose to 1/4th human serving.


Once the dose is cut down, then just fill the drinker up with that dose, instead of just adding it to the regular water?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

DynaBMan said:


> Once the dose is cut down, then just fill the drinker up with that dose, instead of just adding it to the regular water?


Don't cut it too much or it won't do the job, so 1 part chaparell tea to 3 equal parts of water.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I just got home from work and the health food store. I wound up getting the chaparell powder because the leaves they had were cut into very small pieces and I could see no way of boiling them properly to make a tea. I am searching online now to try to determine the proper way to mix the powder. If you have any suggestions, let me know.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Have a System and then Work the System*



DynaBMan said:


> I have been checking my birds over the last few days and I have noticed that I can feel the breastbone or keel fairly sharply defined. Should that be the case or should the birds have a little more meat on them?


Hello Dyna B. Man,

I have been reading over the various posts, and there have been some good points and suggestions made. Perhaps, I may be able to add some additional thought or ideas which may be of some value.

First of all, let's drop back to your original question concerning the feel of your pigeons. I have yet to be able to articulate, the ideal "feeling" that the perfect pigeon, in perfect condition should feel in the hand. The best way I learned was at the elbow of a few old grand masters handing me pigeon after pigeon, and commenting on each bird. What I am trying to say here, is it is quite possible, that your birds feel exactly the way they should feel. There "could" be issues such as worms, etc. But, it is also possible that they are in good condition, and at an ideal body weight. It would be very difficult for any reader here to tell with any real degree of certainty, if your birds are underweight from your description. There are some very high quality breeders which I own, which always maintain a very lean feel in the hand. When I was first introduced to one of these exceptional older breeding males, I thought he was "going lite". This would not be a sign of good health, and could indicate a variety of problems, but this is not the case. This particular individual had a good appetite, but was never overweight. I know some humans like that, they can eat whatever they want and never get fat, and I hate them..... 
So it would be of great value for you, to invest some time into this area of pigeonolgy which often is overlooked. If you are to become a racing loft, then I am convinced that a great deal of skill needs to be developed in this area, and some fanciers after fifty years...still do not have a clue.  


Now, having said that, I would also suggest, that you adopt some medical protocols and a system. The control of Parasites, both internal and external, should be a part of regular ongoing routine health care. As an example and related to your situation, before breeding pigeons are allowed to mate for instance, they should have been given vaccinations and given through physical examinations and various treatments. Your loft should have been made totally parasite "clean". If you are now in a situation where your breeders and YB's are, and have been infested with parasites up this point, then your breeding season has suffered a very major setback. And I don't think any of the totally "Natural" treatments should be totally relied upon, if your loft is now totally infested. This will impact the quality of these young athletes, and unfortunately, it will show up later this year in your race results. Let's hope that is not the case here, and that you take steps to keep it from being a problem.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Dyna B. Man,
> 
> I have been reading over the various posts, and there have been some good points and suggestions made. Perhaps, I may be able to add some additional thought or ideas which may be of some value.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the words of advice, Warren. I actually have no intention or desire to become a racing loft. I simply like to keep the birds and watch them fly around my neighborhood and I have at least two families around the corner from my house that love to watch my birds fly. They are amazing to me. That being said, I want to do the best I can to keep the birds as healthy as possible. I try to keep the loft clean and dry and to give them the proper feed and water. 

As far as the feel of the birds go, you are correct in saying that it would be impossible to tell without actually handling the birds and even then, opinions could and would vary. To me, the birds look and act very healthy. I also clean the loft regularly and I have seen no signs of worms. I would think that there would be some signs in the droppings and there are none. They are not acting sick in any way. One of my neighbors told me just this evening that she felt like the reason they are eating more is because it is breeding season. She also said that she was looking at them just the other day with my wife and she said they did not look sick or wormy at all to her, that they looked as healthy as they could be. I realize she doesn't keep pigeons, but she is an "animal" person and has a lot of experience with them. 

Again, thanks for the words of advice and I will try to let everyone know how it all turns out.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I found a formula for the Chaparall powder that said to use 1/4 teaspoon in a glass of water. I would assume that would mean 8 ounces. I put the 1/4 teaspoon in 16 ounces of very hot water and let it set. I then mixed it with another 16 ounces of water and added poured it in the drinker, straight. They have been drinking it all morning. Hopefully, it will do the trick. I did take another close look at the loft and found no signs of worms in the droppings. Not sure if that means anything or not.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

DynaBMan said:


> I found a formula for the Chaparall powder that said to use 1/4 teaspoon in a glass of water. I would assume that would mean 8 ounces. I put the 1/4 teaspoon in 16 ounces of very hot water and let it set. I then mixed it with another 16 ounces of water and added poured it in the drinker, straight. They have been drinking it all morning. Hopefully, it will do the trick. I did take another close look at the loft and found no signs of worms in the droppings. Not sure if that means anything or not.


Is that the human dose? It might be a little diluted, but better to go easy the first time. Give it some time, then check. Once you get the proper dose down give them another in two weeks.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Is that the human dose? It might be a little diluted, but better to go easy the first time. Give it some time, then check. Once you get the proper dose down give them another in two weeks.


Thanks again, Treesa. 

I am going to leave the Chaparall out there until tomorrow when I get home from church. When I remove it, I am going to give them fresh water with garlic flakes. 1/2 teaspoon equals one clove of garlic and the drinker is a 1.5L size. Of course eleven birds will take a few days to drink that amount of water and I like to keep it fresh. How much garlic should I put in the 1.5L. Also, I have been giving them vinegar in the water, usually once per week. Should I go ahead and add the vinegar with the garlic or wait until the next time I put fresh water out?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

DynaBMan said:


> I found a formula for the Chaparall powder that said to use 1/4 teaspoon in a glass of water. I would assume that would mean 8 ounces. I put the 1/4 teaspoon in 16 ounces of very hot water and let it set. I then mixed it with another 16 ounces of water and added poured it in the drinker, straight. They have been drinking it all morning. Hopefully, it will do the trick. I did take another close look at the loft and found no signs of worms in the droppings. Not sure if that means anything or not.


Hey Dyna B. Man,

Treesa is the resident Natural Healing Doctor and she can advise as to if your "treatment" would be what is needed to insure a complete "cure" for worms. From my personal experience, and it is just me, her experience and training may actually exceed that of my Avian Vet, and my Vet even tells me that may be very well true. 

Personally, this is one of the aliments where I feel like that TV character "Monk" when it comes to worms living inside you. So, I may incorporate too much of an obession, but I would use a number of materials besides this one dose. Like maybe adding some fresh garlic cloves to the water every week ? Incorporate some real drugs during the course of the year for routine worming. Just like when I had a dog, I gave him monthly treatment for heart worms. I don't know if what I do personally is the correct or best way of doing it, but I incorpate several levels and layers of protection. Using a number of methods when it comes to these critters, with an eye towards doing no harm to my birds themselves.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

DynaBMan said:


> Thanks again, Treesa.
> 
> I am going to leave the Chaparall out there until tomorrow when I get home from church. When I remove it, I am going to give them fresh water with garlic flakes. 1/2 teaspoon equals one clove of garlic and the drinker is a 1.5L size. Of course eleven birds will take a few days to drink that amount of water and I like to keep it fresh. How much garlic should I put in the 1.5L. Also, I have been giving them vinegar in the water, usually once per week. Should I go ahead and add the vinegar with the garlic or wait until the next time I put fresh water out?


I myself would just cut up a half clove of garlic forthe 1.5 lt., because once you crack that seal the Allicin is released and should be in their waterer. I don't know how effective flakes are. Please don't let it sit and freshen the water everyday. Apple Cider Vinegar, not vinegar should be used by itself in t he waterer on a different day, it should also be thrown out at the end of the day.

I am not sure if the chaparell will work given the dosage used, but please let me know of your results, you do have to repeat in two weeks.

You should not use one product consistently, I believe in using different things for treatments, it is best. I believe in using different vitamin preparations, instead of just one, as they can all be different.

Be careful and read all ingredients in any product you buy, for your own good and that of your birds.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> I myself would just cut up a half clove of garlic for the 1.5 lt., because once you crack that seal the Allicin is released and should be in their waterer. I don't know how effective flakes are. Please don't let it sit and freshen the water everyday. Apple Cider Vinegar, not vinegar should be used by itself in the waterer on a different day, it should also be thrown out at the end of the day.
> 
> I am not sure if the chaparell will work given the dosage used, but please let me know of your results, you do have to repeat in two weeks.
> 
> ...


Would you tell me what dosage you would have used? If this doesn't work, then I can have something to go on.

I am using organic apple cider vinegar from a health food store, so that should be okay.

Would you alternate the garlic and vinegar?


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

*Dosage clarification*

Treesa,

Just making sure you understand the dosage I gave the birds. I used 1/4 teaspoon in 16 ounces of hot water, stirred, cooled and added 16 more ounces of cold water. I then used that amount alone in the waterer. I did not fill the waterer up with more water.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

DynaBMan said:


> Would you alternate the garlic and vinegar?


*Sorry about that, I just want to make sure you are using the Apple Cider Vinegar instead of plain vinegar, from now on referred to as ACV. Yes, I alternate the two, one day garlic, the next ACV. *




DynaBMan said:


> Treesa,
> 
> Just making sure you understand the dosage I gave the birds. I used 1/4 teaspoon in 16 ounces of hot water, stirred, cooled and added 16 more ounces of cold water. I then used that amount alone in the waterer. I did not fill the waterer up with more water.


*That should be fine then. I got a bit confused, but that sounds about right. How are they doing today?

I actually have a bottle of chaparell caps because I couldn't find the tea, and one capsule is like 500 mg, my rehabber said it was okay to give one whole cap to any I suspect of having paraites. I haven't used it, just keeping it on hand for future needs*


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> *Sorry about that, I just want to make sure you are using the Apple Cider Vinegar instead of plain vinegar, from now on referred to as ACV. Yes, I alternate the two, one day garlic, the next ACV. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They seem to be doing fine. I can see them out the window from where I am typing and they are already out in the aviary and moving around. It is just good daylight here. I don't plan on flying them today because of church this morning and tonight. I am going to switch out their water right after noon, when I get back home.

As far as giving them the second dose, some of them will have babies in the middle of next week. That should put the babies about 1 1/2 weeks old when the second dose is due. Will that be okay?

Also, I found some chaparral oil extract yesterday at the health food store. I didn't buy it, but that might be a little less messy to use when I run out of the powder.

Thanks again for all the advice.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Oh, boy....no I would not give them the second dose if they are feeding kids, but start again when the breeding season is over.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Oh, boy....no I would not give them the second dose if they are feeding kids, but start again when the breeding season is over.


Okay. I will just make sure the garlic is present. That should help take care of things as well.

I really think part of my original problem is the fact that the birds have a lot more on their mind this time of year than just flying. They have other business to tend to.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yep, I'm changing out eggs for dummy eggs daily. 

You should continue to use the garlic for that purpose, just make sure they are drinking their fill, if it is too strong sometimes, they will turn their beaks up at it.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Yep, I'm changing out eggs for dummy eggs daily.
> 
> You should continue to use the garlic for that purpose, just make sure they are drinking their fill, if it is too strong sometimes, they will turn their beaks up at it.


 You should have seen one of the birds yesterday, when he came back in from flight and got a drink. He shook his head, like he was saying "what in the world is that man trying to do to us?". It was really funny the way he acted. I did check the water before I left for church last night and they had drank quite a bit, so that is good.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It amazes me when they go near the drinker, they even back up sometimes, like "woa...what the heck is this?" They seem to be able to smell it even before their beaks make contact with the garlic water.

Yesterday fo the first time, we left our guys out when we went to church, because before the time change I would have to lock up, because by the time we got home it would be dark. I'm happy I don't have to close them up now before church, thanks to daylight savings. It was such a beautiful day yesterday, and they really enjoyed their time in the aviary.

That is the only thing I like about daylight savings.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> Yep, I'm changing out eggs for dummy eggs daily.
> 
> You should continue to use the garlic for that purpose, just make sure they are drinking their fill, if it is too strong sometimes, they will turn their beaks up at it.


Am I special ?

I have over a period of time, gotten a "normal" dose of fresh garlic up to 6-8 cloves + 3 tablespoons of garlic juice to a gallon of treated water. My birds drink it, with no ill affects. I have in fact, been increasing this current "normal" doseage to find a higher effective dose. I have also used garlic oil, garlic juice, and garlic in my BY. My assumption is this level of garlic in the system will achieve the benifits desired. And these amounts are given for a period over several days. I do this because I suspected that the previously prescribed amounts were not enough to be effective. 

I am not suggesting what any reader should do, only what I do. And I use a lot of it and often. Used in conjunction with organic ACV, you have yourself a fantastic winning combination. I suspect that regular use of these items will reduce the need for various drugs.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Am I special ?
> 
> I have over a period of time, gotten a "normal" dose of fresh garlic up to 6-8 cloves + 3 tablespoons of garlic juice to a gallon of treated water. My birds drink it, with no ill affects. I have in fact, been increasing this current "normal" doseage to find a higher effective dose. I have also used garlic oil, garlic juice, and garlic in my BY. My assumption is this level of garlic in the system will achieve the benifits desired. And these amounts are given for a period over several days. I do this because I suspected that the previously prescribed amounts were not enough to be effective.
> 
> I am not suggesting what any reader should do, only what I do. And I use a lot of it and often. Used in conjunction with organic ACV, you have yourself a fantastic winning combination. I suspect that regular use of these items will reduce the need for various drugs.


I'm glad your birds are enjoying the garlic water, what a cocktail!  

May I ask what drinkers you are using? 

Perhaps mine are turning their beaks up at it, because of the reaction with garlic and plastic water containers. I'm still trying to figure that out. They don't seem to mind the ACV though.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm glad your birds are enjoying the garlic water, what a cocktail!
> 
> May I ask what drinkers you are using?
> 
> Perhaps mine are turning their beaks up at it, because of the reaction with garlic and plastic water containers. I'm still trying to figure that out. They don't seem to mind the ACV though.



No I use the German plastic bullet type, nothing special there. I suspect you are like the Mom when the kid turns the nose up to the peas or carrots you don't force the issue do you ?  When my brother didn't eat his peas, the dinner was saved till the following night, didn't matter if he puked on himself, he was going to eat those peas !  Today they call that child abuse, but that is what we went through. And my brother lived eaten though he had to eat peas for supper...

I suppose that it is a matter of what they learn to become use to. And I really don't care if they are feeding young or not, if I can drink it, then they can drink it. Perhaps that is why the YB's take to it, like fish to water, they have gotten it since they were babes in the nest. And if you mix it up fresh every day for several days, if they don't drink it, then they don't drink. My bet is if you do that every day, sooner or later they will drink it. I don't have a problem mixing up all kinds of disgusting cocktails, it's good for them, and they don't know any better. 

Send your birds over here for a week or two and I will break them of all those bad habits, call it boot camp or school of tough love. They will eat what is for supper, and drink the cocktail of the day and like it, and with no complaints !


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Wow, Warren! Did YOU bring back a memory or two! Your brother and I must be - ah - two peas in a pod, 'cause I hated peas too! AND, my parents made me sit at the table til the peas were gone. Yeah, I think a lot of what my parents did might be termed child abuse today. But, I'm not running around trying to blow up my fellow man...

Tell your brother to mix those peas with mashed potatoes...helps...a lot!  

What you put in your bird's drinking water sure beats what ferals drink out and about. Who knows what is in their water!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

mr squeaks said:


> Wow, Warren! Did YOU bring back a memory or two! Your brother and I must be - ah - two peas in a pod, 'cause I hated peas too! AND, my parents made me sit at the table til the peas were gone. Yeah, I think a lot of what my parents did might be termed child abuse today. But, I'm not running around trying to blow up my fellow man...
> 
> Tell your brother to mix those peas with mashed potatoes...helps...a lot!
> 
> What you put in your bird's drinking water sure beats what ferals drink out and about. Who knows what is in their water!


I hated those darn little green peas when I was growing up and STILL hate them to this day. I used to swallow them whole like a pill so I wouldn't have to chew up the nasty little critters................


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> I hated those darn little green peas when I was growing up and STILL hate them to this day. I used to swallow them whole like a pill so I wouldn't have to chew up the nasty little critters................



Well, will wonders never cease! ANOTHER pea hater...can't figure out why they were invented! Of course, I'll be lambasted with peas from those love who the little yuckies...then again, different tastes and all that!

Funny thing is...I CAN eat them if they are mixed with something else, just not alone...

Know this is OT...sorry, couldn't resist...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> No I use the German plastic bullet type, nothing special there. I suspect you are like the Mom when the kid turns the nose up to the peas or carrots you don't force the issue do you ? When my brother didn't eat his peas, the dinner was saved till the following night, didn't matter if he puked on himself, he was going to eat those peas ! Today they call that child abuse, but that is what we went through. And my brother lived eaten though he had to eat peas for supper...
> 
> I suppose that it is a matter of what they learn to become use to. And I really don't care if they are feeding young or not, if I can drink it, then they can drink it. Perhaps that is why the YB's take to it, like fish to water, they have gotten it since they were babes in the nest. And if you mix it up fresh every day for several days, if they don't drink it, then they don't drink. My bet is if you do that every day, sooner or later they will drink it. I don't have a problem mixing up all kinds of disgusting cocktails, it's good for them, and they don't know any better.
> 
> ...


Hi Warren,

Okay, Warren I will send my spoiled brats to you.  Just kidding...

I am changing their water drinkers, as I have been using the empty water gallon containers from the store and cut holes in them, the plastic bullet kind is a whole different plastic.





Lovebirds said:


> I hated those darn little green peas when I was growing up and STILL hate them to this day. I used to swallow them whole like a pill so I wouldn't have to chew up the nasty little critters................



I only eat peas, if I make home made pea soup or in stir fry, that is the only way I can handle them.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Now wait just a minute. I happen to like peas.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

little bird said:


> HHmmmmm.......me thinks some people have never known REAL hunger.


I'm sure you're right and I guess if I got REALLY REALLY hungry, I would gladly eat them. Hopefully, I'll never see that day.........


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Oh Oh...I completely FORGOT about Split Pea soup, one of my homemade specialty favorities!

Was talkin' only about those big green frozen peas...

However, never let it be said that I don't like GREEN! LOVE spinich and Collards!

Yes, Littlebird, you are correct...hunger is a whole new ballgame...

Personally, I still wonder about plastic. Prefer glass but there have probably been great strides made in plastics...don't know. Wonder about odor trapping and anything about plastic that could leach out into the water.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

mr squeaks said:


> Personally, I still wonder about plastic. Prefer glass but there have probably been great strikes made in plastics...don't know. Wonder about odor trapping and anything about plastic that could leach out into the water.


I have just recently gone to a blue plastic bullet type of waterer. My birds seem to love it just fine and there doesn't seem to be a smell to it. Of course, I change the water regularly.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Just an update.

I think the birds are doing fine, they are active and some of them are raising babies right now. I have actually increased their feed. Tammy has been giving them an 8 ounce can in the mornings and I have been giving them the same in the evening. This morning, I gave them two 8 ounce cans, one of the Purina and one of the pellet, cracked corn, grain mix that I had mixed before I started using the Purina feed. This evening, I gave them another can of half each type. I know that seems to be a lot of feed for only eleven birds, but they seem to be not so hungry and they still start coming in as soon as I hit the whistle. I also want to make sure the parents have plenty of feed so the babies will have plenty to eat. The last several days, the droppings have seemed to have increased and the odor also seems to be stronger. This may be due to the Chaparral dosage they were given a week ago, not sure. This evening, they seemed to fly better, all except Bossy, Jessie, and Rosco, all of whom were sitting with babies or eggs. Of the eight that flew, four disappeared for quite some time and four hung around a little closer. All in all, I think they are doing fine, but I suppose time will tell.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi DynaBman,

I don't think the Chapparell would make their poop smell, is it very sour or strong?

You might want to get a sample of the poop checked out to see if there is anything going on.

I would definitely get them on the ACV and probiotics too. 

I have given my hens on the nest, some alfalfa when they have the smelly loads of poop, and boy what a change.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi DynaBman,
> 
> I don't think the Chapparell would make their poop smell, is it very sour or strong?
> 
> ...


It doesn't smell sour, just a little stronger than normal. I do have them on ACV and garlic, switching off when I change the water. I gave them 16 ounces of feed this morning and they didn't quite clean it all up. I took it up and will give them another 8 ounces this evening and see how they act.

Edit: The main reason for this thread was for me to try to figure out why the birds were not ranging out and flying like they did last year. I may be wrong, but I have come to feel that they simply have more on their mind now besides flying. They are courting and breeding and there is a lot interaction going on. I think I will see a change when that activity slows down.


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