# Possibly sick parent-fed baby dove



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, that friend who gave me the ringneck dove? Her other pair of doves, who have been taking good care of their single baby since Tuesday now, have a baby that seems sort of ill. She called me up because he was breathing rapidly and I came over and noticed a few things. The baby, in size, is doing very well. The little guy has his eyes opened and pin feathers sprouting out and everything, and a huge crop. The only this is this:

a) The baby's legs seem to be a bit splayed out on either side of it
b) The baby has a rapid sort of "ripple effect" when it breathes, meaning its lungs don't just expand in and out, but sort of ripple in very quick breaths.
c) The baby's eyes, when they should be well opened by now, are squinted.
d) The baby's poops are very liquidy and its stomach and cloaca are coated in white liquid.
e) The baby sometimes shivers like it's cold, but it feels very warm to the touch.

What should I do? Should I take it away from its parents and observe how its crop empties, how it behaves, etc...? Or would it be more wise to just let the parents take care of it? They are not young parents and have raised quite a few babies before.

'Tis the season to be dovey, it would seem, with all these doves that keep creeping into my life...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



Could he be too 'hot'..?


If not that...are there any sounds of his Breathing? Any raspyness or clicking or anything?


He might have aspirated a small Seed, or, some Liquid...which would be very serious of course, if he did...


Otherwise...oye...uhhhhhhhhhh...various Viruses can effect their System for them to be processing lots of Water and making liquidy urates, liquidy poos, and feeling feverish or 'panting'...but then too, so can other bacterial illnesses, also...

How old is he?


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

The little guy is just five days old. From what I've observed, all the babies I've ever raised, all parrots, pigeons, doves and songbirds were born with a clicky noise when they breathe, it fades over time and then goes away completely when they're adults and doesn't harm them at all, so I wouldn't be able to tell if it was just baby clicking or...bad clicking. I was around right after he was born and he also had the clicking noise from birth. Same as the baby I'm raising now. Same as all the babies I've ever raised and observed, parent-fed or not. He may be too warm, but it's not very warm where he is, and his parents are just sitting on him like they should be.

When I see his poops, I see that they are very white and liquidy and messy, whereas the baby I'm raising has rather clean poops, whatever surrounding a pretty solid piece of nice brown poop.

Should I separate him, or just wait...?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



Well...it DOES sound like somehting is not-right there, definitely...with the messy Urates, messy poops...


Can you double check whatever the parents have been eating?

And or whatever other factors that might have to do with maybe some sort of germs or Mice or whatever, which might be getting into the feed or other things the parents might be nibbleing on?


I think if it was me, I would not seperate him from his parents...but I would be brooding on what to treat the parents for, say, in a Drinking Water way, so he would get the treatmens from their feeding and watering him...


Trouble is of course, "what" is it that is bothering the little one? What should one treat for...which is coming through the parents which is not bothering them enough to show?


He is awefully little..!


What are the parents poos and urates looking like?


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

The parents poops... Well, from experience with these birds, they always get extremely stinky when they're raising youngsters. I'll have to double check, but from what I've seen, they look normal. The parents are acting fine, by the way, but I'll have to go over and check what it is they're eating... I do recall that she was feeding her pigeons a diet intended for poultry, as she gets it from a feed store, but from what I recall, all it did was improve the condition of her doves and their poops.

Could this be a problem for the babies, though? Would it be wiser to switch them to seeds? I'm not sure if they're on the pellets or seeds, but I think I saw a seed in the baby's crop upon investigation.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Just for future reference, it's always good to give the parents probiotics in their water when they're raising. It lets them get the most out of their feed in such stressfull times. It also helps prevent E. coli and salmonela in the babies/parents 


I'm still trying to figure out what could be causing the poor little baby this problem.

One thing you could do is get a dropping test done?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I have some human probiotics on hand. Let me think, what is it called again... Well, I forget, but it comes in a capsule and dissolves in water. Moody takes it because she has bad poops, likely due to lack of good bacteria in her system. Should I add this to their water?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm not sure if you should. Depending on what's wrong with the baby, it may make it better or worse.

I'm thinking that your bird has E. Coli _maybe_. I'm not an expert by far. The bad smell...the increased urates/watery droppings....they could be symptoms of E. coli....Also, E. coli can cause abdominal pain, which could explain the position of the legs (even though the baby probably just has splay leg), shaking, and panting. Panting and having the eyes closed normally comes with sick birds anyways. In the case of e. coli, then I'd say go for it and give them probiotics, as they can get rid of it. On the other hand...I could be wrong...and the good bacteria could only be feeding the bad bacteria of whatever is causing this.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I cleaned off the baby's stomach with some warm water. His skin looks dry. He keeps his eyes closed now, even if he can open them fine. He doesn't seem too responsive either, and shakes whenever he tries to crawl. Unable to move very well, too... What could be the cause? I'm still unsure whether to add probiotics or not.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


I am leaning to Mary of Exeter's suspicion of "e-coli" as a possible culprit...


Of course one does not wish to medicate such very young infant Birds unless one really feels one must...but...it does sound as if somehting is amiss with the little one's health, and of course the parents could be transmitting an ilness while remaining asymptomatic themselves...


So, it might be worth considering to treat the sol Drinking Water which the parents drink, so it contains a medicine for answering an 'e-coli' illness...so they and the Babys and anyone else drinking from it, would be getting treated.


Otherwise, there is not much to go on here as for making any diagnosis of the problem, other than that some of my tentative suspicion, and then Mary's mention, would seem reasonable, and would fit what is being seen...


Babys can perish rather fast of course...so, if you have the meds for trating e-coli, and if you feel this is a reasonable hypothesis...then you had best get on to it and start the treatment now.


Good luck with this..!


Many meds which are for e-coli also do various of salmonella I think...so, nothing wrong with that...as their appearances can be similar sometimes, depending on the strains...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...if it was me, I would carefully evaluate the feed the parents have been getting...and if any even hint of a doubt obout it, then toss it, and instead, just allow them regular Dove kinds of Seeds which should be just fine for them anyway...


And if I were treating an infant, via treating the Parents, for suspected e-coli or salmonella, I would tend to withold pro-biotics, unless I was mixing the parent's drinking Water for it to have a just barely sub-therapudic amount of ACV, in order to hedge against the pro-biotics themselves assuming a unintended virulance in the presence of Antibiotics reducing those flora or fauna which keep THEM in check...but then this also reduces various of the pro-biotics themselves who can not abide an acidic environ...so...

If the parents were healthy, the natural pro-biotics of their Crops would be all the Baby should need...so...with that in mind, I myself would not tend to include them for the Baby...

If hand raising a Baby, then I would lean more toward their use...



Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

What sort of medication would we need for the treatment of e-coli and salmonella? I can pick some up--however, I'm not very keen on the idea of medicating such a wee one. It does seem that something is amiss with this little one, and something should be done about it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


Certainly there are quite a few which can be used...


Have a peek here for some general info in Articles specifically respecting Pigeons since Doves would be the same, remembering that Dosage should be based on the weight of the patient(s), and in your case, a Water Borne Medication in the drinking Water would treat the Babys via the parents, which is much better than trying to treat the Baby himself - 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Treating+e-coli+in+Pigeons&btnG=Search

I personally would never use "Gentamycin" or any of it's kin for any Bird or anyone else, since it has a nasty habit of destroying inner Ear functons making for balance and co-ordination problems for ever after...


"Enrofloxyn" is probably a decent choice...

"Divet", trade mane for a combination of Sulfadiazynum and Trimethoprimium should also be a decent choice...

Some of the Tetra or other 'cycline' family similarly...

Amoxicillin is good...maybe among the better, if memory serve...

Anyway, scan through some of the 'google' listings via the above link...see what you think...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The thing here is, probiotics won't 'hurt' the immune system the baby is building up, but can actually cure e.coli. E. coli and Salmonella tend to come in when the bird is low on those natural bacteria, normally after using antibiotics or during stress (which can occur during breeding). Using probiotics in the parents water will allow them to get it and fight their e. coli if they have it, as well stay in the system to where the baby can get its share of the boost of good bacteria to help with its e. coli problem. Medicine will help yes, but it can have an effect on the little one's immune system..which is why you really shouldn't use any medications during breeding unless it is ACV, probios, or wormers/parasite medications if you must. Really nothing should be used unless you have to during breeding, except the probios which is actually recommended to use regularly during this time to get the biggest, healthiest babies you can.

Normally in this situation...if I were going to use any type of antibiotic, I'd try to use a bit of ACV first, then probiotics as soon as I can as a follow-up. I try to keep the immune system in mind when medicating birds with young or the young themselves....It's kind of a difficult situation really. You just have to do what you think you should, and hope for the best. After all, they're little weak squabs, and the chance of them surviving at this point isn't the highest.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Re-thinking about the matter, and doing a little more studying on it, I've sort of came to like the idea of using antibiotics more in this case. But I am almost certain I read somewhere that ACV kills things like salmonella and e. coli...so...I still hold to my thoughts that it would be safer for the babies, until I read somewhere that it doesn't actually help at all against salmonella type things.

_
"Consider using anitibiotics only if the birds are sick or the birds' droppings are poor and the above measurments have not helped. Anitbiotics should always be used with care, no matter what time of year. The antibiotics that kill E. coli also kill many of the normal bacteria in the bowel, which are necessary for nutrient absorption and vitamin production. If antibiotics are used during moulting, they can comprimise feather quality. Incorrect use during breeding can adversely effect youngsters' developement."_

The 'above measurements' it mentioned were mainly for the race season. Some of the things that could relate in this case are:
_"If E. coli is a frequent finding, review loft-based stresses, loft design, ventilation and management practices. The loft may be too crowded, the birds may be chronically overworked, or *feed quality may be poor*."
"Always start the birds on probiotics. The E. coli might go away by itself but it is best to take no chance."_

Warm and moist places are breeding grounds for bacteria like E. coli. I'd clean the water containers very good with either bleach or white vinegar with cold water instead of the hot/warm water people would think to use to clean things. Also try to keep their area as dry and clean as you can...maybe cleaning out the nest bowl/box and putting some new bedding in? Even little things like that can help a lot with fighting sicknesses like this.


Well one good thing can come out of this - I will probably be an E. coli expert by the time this is over! I keep re-reading and re-reading this stuff


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ha ha. Here's the link I was looking for about ACV - http://www.racingbirds.com/remedies1.html





What's your thoughts about using ACV before antibiotics in this case, Phil?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you for all the research you've been doing! It's a great help. I don't want to take any chances, so I've bought ACV, some probiotics and some baytril. Would baytril be all right in this case? Anyway, I'll await further instruction. I went over there and the nesting place _was_ pretty bad. I cleaned it up and put some clean paper towel under the baby after cleaning him up. I'd say e-coli is the best bet here--hygiene isn't so great. I've realized they're on a mix meant for doves, so it can't be that bad, can it? Just seeds and peas and the such. Their poops are fine, but stinky. Like stinky cheese. Is crop milk supposed to stink, also...? Because the baby smells also like stinky, sour cheese.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MaryOfExeter, Vasp, all...



Since the infant Dove is already showing symptoms of some kind of illmness or distress, I would worry that whatever I am, to do, to get on with doing it, since such infants may not have long to live unless a right remedy is begun a.s.a.p.


If the infant Dove was not showing any symptoms, and one wished to augment the parent's diet or liquid intake with some special things, such as pro-biotics, that would be a different scenario than the one at hand presently.


I know no reason why ACV-Water could not be used concurrently with actual Pharmaceutical Medicines, and, really too, 'Antibiotics' sort of fall on an attenuated continuity with 'pro-biotics', but we should not apprehend that continuity too naively I think, since the actual Pharmaceutical Antibiotics can and will do some very definite things, and do them definitely...which would be too much to ask of our 'pro-biotics' as such in situations where a patient is showind distressful symptoms which resemble those of an early stage of serious illness or systemic infection from bacteria or whatever micro-organisms.


If one were to mix a Pharmaceutical Antibiotic with ACV-Water, we must remember to make sure all is mixed well and has not settled Each time we are to tube some in...and, I think we would want to look very carefully at Water Bowls, if useing it that way, to ensure that the Vinegar is not unintentionally precipitating 'out' the actual molecules of the Pharmaceutical, where, a drinking Bird then would not be getting the Medicine, since the Medicine as such would be on the bottom of the Bowl, having been seperated form an even or homogeneous distribution.


Possibly such a precitation would result in ruining the mix, if the molecules of the Medicine in fact refuse to diseminate homogenously, and one would have to start over and NOT mix with ACV then...so, this is something one would have to try and see about, to know.



So, if one is to use ACV-Water along with Pharmaceutical Medicines, I would say to make sure any intake of the patient is guarenteed to be a homogenuous mixture...and if in doubt or seeing any sediment settled on the bottom which does not immediately dissolve back when stirred, start over and skip the ACV-Med mix, and tube them in seprately alternating some hours between them.


Probiotcs not of the ACV kind, are usualy not recommended to be given concurrently with many Pharmaceutical Antibiotics, since the Pharma-Antibiotics can remove the endemic flora or fauna which would prevent some of the pro-biotics from impetuous and harmful levels of replication, resulting in 'Thrush' or 'Candida' infections, regardless of Species of patient...

ACV will counteract Candida or Thrush, so...if it is used along with pro-biotics, concurrent with Pharma-Antibiotics, you might more or less break even...Lol...


But I think, as for me, I would just skip the pro-biotics if a Bird is going to be on a pharmaceutical Antibiotic regimen...with ACV-Water being a option I see no harm in useing concurrently, provided we bear in mind that it can sometimes precipitate out a dissolved Medicine, from the Water is is in...so, with that in mind...anyway...


Sorry that was so wordy...but there are several things with this I wanted to make sure were being mentioned...and I do not have the clearest head just now...!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Haha, thank you, Phil. Should I just put some baytril into their water, then? What sort of dosage are we talking about here, then?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Thank you for all the research you've been doing! It's a great help. I don't want to take any chances, so I've bought ACV, some probiotics and some baytril. Would baytril be all right in this case? Anyway, I'll await further instruction. I went over there and the nesting place _was_ pretty bad. I cleaned it up and put some clean paper towel under the baby after cleaning him up. I'd say e-coli is the best bet here--hygiene isn't so great. I've realized they're on a mix meant for doves, so it can't be that bad, can it? Just seeds and peas and the such. Their poops are fine, but stinky. Like stinky cheese. Is crop milk supposed to stink, also...? Because the baby smells also like stinky, sour cheese.




Hi Vasp, 


It is possible that this is a Yeast or Candida family of issue, and not an e-coli...


Prudance would suggest one treat for both I suppose, but if it is a fermentation issue, treating only for e-coli will not effect a cure...and 'regular' Pro-Biotics could make it rage into a disaster, so I personally would not use any of the usual pro-biotics at this time.



I do not recall 'Baytril to be a drug of choice for e-coli, but go back a few posts where I posted a link for you on e-coli in Pigeons, and scan some of the articles the link goes to.



ACV-Water, Four Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water, would likely be a very good idea now...with no other Water BUT that for the parents to drink, so, they then will feed and Water the infant with his 'doses'...



If it was me, I would definitely toss whatever this feed is the parents have been on, and get new and different.


White Safflower, maybe some definitely NOT rancid "hulled" Sun Flower Kernals...bought in seperate Bags at Petsmart or the likes, then one can mix with those with any Finch or Canary ( whole Seed kind of ) Seed mix, and be in good shape for Doves, since they tend to like all those Seeds very much.



Everyone's poops are like that? Bad 'Cheese' smelling?

How many Doves are in the same place there?



Phil
l v


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah I think I'm going to go to bed and try to understand all of that....later (since it is, technically, tomorrow...12:30 am  )
Either way, just pick something and do it quick. The longer we wait, the less time we have to save the little one. I can say that...even if you don't try probiotics first...and IF the little guy survives and recovers after the antibiotic...then you should give them a day or two to let the medicine get out of the system, THEN use probiotics to restore what good backteria the antibiotics may have killed. I do know that much for sure  And it will help prevent future incidents like this (if it IS in fact e. coli or salmonella...always expect the un-expected, right?).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Eh, before I go, I might as well mention that Phil is right. I did see it mention Yeast and Candida somewhere. I think it was along with the bad smelling part, it listed them right along with e. coli. So like I said, expect the un-expected! 

Okay NOW I am going to bed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 




Since time is likely short for electing some course of action to remedy the condition of the infant...


My best guess, since I do not know what e-coli poops tend to look like or smell like definitively, or as far as having made any association between them and 'bad cheese' smells...


My best guess would be to treat everyone with the ACV-Water definitely...

If you have any 'Nystatin' or 'Medistat', read the instructions for it, and give it to every Bird in there individually, also...in addition to having everyone on the ACV-Water.


And thirdly, if you have any of the antibiotics mentioned in the articles for being particularly used for treating "e-coli", consider to treat everyone with those also...and if you do, remove all Calcium containing Grit from their areas.


As for me, I would definitely change their feed to some new and different brand of Seeds...or Seed mixes...and stop with the 'old' feed whatever it is.


And I personally, would not give 'pro-biotics' since we are suspecting a Thrush or Yeast or some wierd 'fermentation' in the digestive system condition, which those would probably not help at this point, or, which they could make much worse, at this point.


That is my best summary integration here as far as what you have been able to report on the situation you have...or, as for what I myself would do if I had the situation you describe.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right. ACV in the water. I can get some nystatin as well. I'm not sure how much to give, however, to them individually. There's 3 birds in the cage, mom dad and baby, and it's fairly big.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



Nystatin - usually mixed with some Liquid of some kind, such as a fruit juice - would be tubed directly into their respective Crops, if possible...and between meals would be best I think...and if you have it in a 'pure' form where some instructions for dose are on it, let us know what those say, and if not, then let us know where it came from and how it has been kept...

Some Vets mix it in Pineapple Juice and it spoils after a week or two even when refrigerated...so see if you can determine what it is all tolled, far as if it is already mixed in some way , and or was from a Vet ready-mixed...and when...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> All right. ACV in the water. I can get some nystatin as well. I'm not sure how much to give, however, to them individually. There's 3 birds in the cage, mom dad and baby, and it's fairly big.



Low or close nap Terry Cloth Towells would be best for the Cage bottom and for under the Baby...rather than any 'paper' kinds of materials or Paper Towells...


Do you nave a tried and trusted means of 'tubing' directly into an infant Dove's Crop?


If not, then at least something soft shaped and narrow to get the 'Nystatin' far enough into her tiny Gullet, for it to be trickled 'down' safely, with no compromise or dangers for her Trachea where any could be aspirated...


Phil
l v


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't have a method of tubing, but I have used small eyedroppers before to get stuff right into the crop. With one little guy who couldn't swallow, I had to use this method, and it didn't harm him at all.

I'll tell you what it says on the back of the nystatin.

But I've just noticed something.
I went over just a while ago to check up, and the baby seems like he's improving. I don't know why, as it was in bad shape a while ago. It's not shaking much, breathing looks better, but I think the poor thing does have splayed leg anyway. I checked and it has a good feeding response.

Would it be safer to see if the baby continues to improve before starting a dosage of any antibiotic or nystatin?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


ACV-Water for the Parents, which means for the infant also since he is fed and watered by them, and or additionally, 'Nystatin' for all admionistered directly into their respective Crops, will not detract from their health, whatever their Health may be.

Pharmaceutical Antibiotics are somewhat an unknown factor for the very very young, but I would use them definitely if I felt they were needed, and I would hold off if I felt I could get away without them.


Seeing as we do not know what the problem is here, but, that there are suggestions of some sort of digestive system fermentation issues, which may be from feed contamination problems, or from other bacteria or mold or fermentation sources the parents are picking up from somewhere, to be effecting the digestive system of the Infant definitely, and of the two parents, probably...

To me it would be prudent to STOP letting them have whatever kinds of feed they had been eating, get rid of any feed still in the Cage, and, to get new feed of a different Brand.


And, to me, it would be prudent to have the only drinking Water be the ACV-Water, and, as an additional option, to consider to dose all three Birds with 'Nystatin' and to follow the recommended dosages for their respective weights, and, for a couple of days anyway, to follow whatever periodic and subsequent doses the Vet or Manufacturer recommends....usually being twice-a-day, but as for the amount, I have no idea what concentration you have, in order to say.


As for whether the infant needs a systemic antibiotic for possible bacterial illness effecting his system globally, rather than that he has a digestive problem from bad or contaminated feed, moulds, yeasts, or having candida in his digestive system and so on, maybe he got chilled a few times and had stalled his system intermittantly, for all we know, which can invite Candida...so, I can not say I have any hard opinion.

If it was me, I would go with the ACV-Water, New Feed, and see how things go...and if the infant did not seem definitely better by this time tomorrow, or if the infant seems to be getting worse between now and this time tomorrow, then I would grab some antibiotic suited for salmonella, and e-coli anyway, and start them all on that via the parent's drinking Water.

Baytril is not what one would use for these, so, do go back and read this mentions in the articles which the link I posted refers you to, so you can review the meds one would use for these.


Are ther 'bubbles' in the poops?

Is there any 'yellow' in anyone's Urates?

Is the Baby still peeping and nuzzling, asking to be fed now and then, is he eating alright from willing parents?



Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

If it's e.coli amoxycillin is a good choice as it's effective against it and a gentle antibiotic. much gentler, if you will, than doxycyline or baytril for instance. I think a vet screening of the dropping is in order, though, if possible.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

There are no 'bubbles' in any of their poops, and the urates are nice and white. The baby is more responsive today, and has his eyes open. However, he does appear to have splayed leg. I made sure to give them lots of good paper towel, but the poor guy's legs are just spread out on either side. He nuzzles even my fingers and peeps, and seems to eat very well from his parents. He's not shaking anymore.

What could have caused this little problem, and why has it faded so quickly? Should I just go on with treatment anyway?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> There are no 'bubbles' in any of their poops, and the urates are nice and white. The baby is more responsive today, and has his eyes open. However, he does appear to have splayed leg. I made sure to give them lots of good paper towel, but the poor guy's legs are just spread out on either side. He nuzzles even my fingers and peeps, and seems to eat very well from his parents. He's not shaking anymore.
> 
> What could have caused this little problem, and why has it faded so quickly? Should I just go on with treatment anyway?




Hi Vasp, 


Paper Towells are no good...use Terry Cloth Towells...


Paper Towells are too slick and will cause them to develop "Splay Legs"...



If it were me I would definitely have long since began and kept on with the ACV-Regimen for the Drinking Water of the Parents...and I would continue with it till the New Year.


I would also throw away and NOT use any more of whatever their old feed was...getting new Feed and a new Brand of feed, instead...

As well as thoroughly cleaning out their Cage of every old seed and every old poop and anything else that was in there, and setting in fresh, clean Cotton, Terrycloth Towelling for the Cage Bottom, and, for the Baby's situation in the Nest.


I would NOT give them any 'pro-biotics' for the time being...


Today, or tomorrow, you would do well to begin a diorthotic method of some kind for those Legs...waiting will only make things harder to ammend.


Please begin a Thread just for that, so those wishing to share info on how-to, will see it.


Best wishes..!


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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