# Nora's Tiny Egg and some Bad Signs, please advise



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I went into the loft this morning, and found Nora and Big Red with a tiny egg, laid outside their nest bowl. 








Here's a close-up of the bad stuff: the tiny egg with a little blood on it, probably laid shortly before I went into the coop, since it was still wet; evidence of vomiting; and on the right, discharge from her vent (happened as I watched, but it took a few minutes to get a camera).









Nora is in my "sick bay" cage over a heating pad, lounging on one wing, so I guess she's not horribly uncomfortable. She ate with enthusiasm yesterday, but today was in the "tail down" posture as the top picture. She may be an "older" hen, her band says 1997, but she used to live with the youngest birds Lou had, so may have been an oops baby banded with whatever band was handy. (Does she look like she's 13? I don't know how to guess age by looking, except on the cocks with ruffly cere/wattles...)

The other day, I found a broken egg on the floor under their nest box, but cleaned it up and didn't think much of it (found another broken egg on the floor today, but not near their box... some of the "newer" pigeons have not settled into pairs or boxes yet, but I'm not sure what's going on; I'm reasonably confident the space is secure and there is no evidence of predators or other varmints, so I figure the eggs are getting broken from pigeon scuffles.)

I don't know how long ago she vomited, but think it was probably recent, since it was still dripping. I don't feel anything in her crop now. She has access to water, and I'm waiting to see poop before I offer her anything else. 

Will post poop pics as soon as I have something to photograph.
Meanwhile, should I give her rehydration solution, or something else in the water, or withdraw the water?

ETA a macro closeup of the egg...


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I agree that age may be a factor. Another possibility - when was she last wormed? A worm load can sometimes cause vomiting. If her weight starts to drop, she might need smaller, easier to digest seed for a few days to keep her strength up.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nora, and the rest of my pigeons, were last wormed early last week. 
It was their follow-up treatment. (Last month, I nearly lost one of my yearling hens to worms, you may have seen my "another sick bird" thread)
Since I still found a few worms during cleanup, they will be getting another follow-up at the end of this week.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's the poop; it's rather nasty looking.
The green seems to be a fair amount of bile, but also some fecal matter. 
(I smeared it after taking the photo, and could see "fiber" among the painty looking stuff)
I'm not sure what to make of the yellowish and white drizzly looking parts.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



Symptoms are consistent with signs of Canker/Trichomoniasis...


May also be effecting her Oviduct.


If it was me, I would treat for Canker, and, also allow a few days of Medistatin...and see how things go.

ACV-Water for her drinking, made to as stout as she will oblige...

I would also consider to have her on 'DIVIT' for a week, since there might be some mild Ovidict infection beginning.



Good luck!


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks Phil! 
I was suspecting canker since the poop looked similar to other posted pics where canker was the problem, but I wasn't sure.

Nora weighs 465g.
Is a 60mg tab of metronidazole daily the appropriate dose? 
Can ACV and Medistatin go together in the water? (I thought so, but not sure).

Here's the 4:30pm poop... it looks like some blood clots in there, but the urates seem whiter than the earlier one (or am I fooling myself?)


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, the 60mg of Metronidazole a day, for her weight, would be fine. As Phil mentioned, I think it would be good to also start her on Divet (trimethoprim/sulfa) or Baytril as well, to help head off, or start sooner treatment, on any oviduct issues. No real solids in her droppings means she is off her food, an eye needs to be kept on that, I would start her on the meds, give it a day or so, and re-access.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Thanks Phil!
> I was suspecting canker since the poop looked similar to other posted pics where canker was the problem, but I wasn't sure.



Well...it is consistent with conditions where Treating for Canker would be goods to do, whether or not one is certain the illness is Canker or some other Micro-Organism which can occasion those kinds of Urates, anyway.




> Nora weighs 465g.
> Is a 60mg tab of metronidazole daily the appropriate dose?



60 mG would be fine.


Get some 'SPARTRIX'...to have on hand also.




> Can ACV and Medistatin go together in the water? (I thought so, but not sure).



Not very well...the 'Medistatin' suspension tends to settle out fairly quickly.


One can with-hold Water, then offer a Shot Glass say, of Water in which a right does of suspended Medistatin-Solution is in solution, and the Bird will drink it...it tastes good.


Drinking Water as such, can be set back into their Cage then, for a while, pending planning ahead for the next 'Medistatin' round 12 hours later.


Or, one can 'Tube' it in...and this is what I usually do...since it is easier and more certain and requires less logsitical planning.





> Here's the 4:30pm poop... it looks like some blood clots in there, but the urates seem whiter than the earlier one (or am I fooling myself?)



Hard to say...


'Divit' would be my choice I think...to accompany the Metronizadole for her Regimin...along with the 'Medistatin'...



But, 'Enroflaxyn' might be worth considering also.


Blood might have come from the Oviduct...I am not sure...

But I would not be surprised if there were multiple issues going on.


I will PM Karyn to come have a look.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Just checked, and Foy's has both Spartrix & Divet in stock (they were out last time I looked) 
I'll call in an order in the morning (can't get their online checkout to work).

Since the supply places seem to have "discontinued" it, I asked my vet about Baytril when I was there with one of my cats... they use it and will sell it to me, but there was concern about accurately reducing the dosage they use (not sure what their concentrations are) to pigeon size.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Just checked, and Foy's has both Spartrix & Divet in stock (they were out last time I looked)
> I'll call in an order in the morning (can't get their online checkout to work).
> 
> Since the supply places seem to have "discontinued" it, I asked my vet about Baytril when I was there with one of my cats... they use it and will sell it to me, but there was concern about accurately reducing the dosage they use (not sure what their concentrations are) to pigeon size.


Robin, if you wanted to get Nora started on the Sulmet you have, until the Divet comes in you could do that, as the are both in the Sulfonamide family of meds. Also, if your vet just tells you what the percent is of the Baytril he uses, it will be straight forward using it to dose for pigeons.

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Fresh poop... from about 6:30 or so.
Only a few flecks of what might be blood in this one.








Nora has had metronidazole and is thinking about drinking the medistatin water.
If it's clear to me that she hasn't been drinking in a few hours, then she will meet Mr Tube. 

She hasn't vomited for the past 6 hours since she's been in the house; can I give her any real food, or must we stick to liquid for tonight?


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I have some Divet that I forgot about , woohoo! 

Bottle says 1/4 to 1/2 pill daily for 7 days... at 465g is she a 1/4 or 1/2 pill bird?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 




If it was me...I'd be tube feeding thin formula with 'Nutrical' ( and some ACV ) in it...


The 'Medistatin' suspension can be tubed in between meals, and is usually a twice-a-day thing.


There seems to be a lot of mucous and intestional troubles, and who knows what all higher up...

Seeds might be dangerous now, if there is too much debris or inflamation in the upper GI.


'DIVIT', do a whole Tablet for today...half-a-Tablet-a-day there after.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Latest poop: 10pm looks like mostly urates? and still a little blood (or is the brownish stuff something else? Is that good, bad, or insignificant?)









Nora has had the Divet, and I will mix some Nutrical gruel presently and give to her... So far she has been cooperative about the burrito issue  and being pilled, though she seemed to gag a little as I positioned her head/throat for the pill, before it went in. It went down OK; we'll see how she does with the tube. 

She grunts at me a lot, but I don't know whether it's because she's uncomfortable, or has claimed the cage as "her" space... she doesn't want to leave it when I need her to stand somewhere else while I change the paper towels.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Those oviduct things can be kinda' rough... here's a link to one I wrote about this kinda' stuff several years ago:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

Pidgey


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> There seems to be a lot of mucous and intestional troubles, and who knows what all higher up...
> 
> Seeds might be dangerous now, if there is too much debris or inflamation in the upper GI.


About debris... Is there anything specific to be looking out for? 
Assuming the meds facilitate the body dealing with and passing debris, are there signs of it in the output, or does it get completely transformed by the process and pass invisibly?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


Far as I know, if debris occuring past the Stomach, is released, it can pass appearing more or less like a glob of 'Tufu' or mabe look kinda like some spit out, pale greyish white chewing Gum...if likely softer.

If above the Stomach, or, especially, if above the Gizzard, if debris is released, it would be more or less digested or unrecognisable once passed.

Inflamitory Debris will not be released, untill quite a ways into the medicinal regimen...or untill her system ammends the open Lesions from which the Debris arises. Often this debris will cling for a week or more, even if sometimes releaseing after only a few days of Medicines.

We do not have any way of knowing if inflamitory debris is present in any area of her GI or upper GI.

But, given that she is throwing up, and, that we see 'zero' fecal matter...we can safely say no 'solid' food has been passing, and that probably no 'solid' food has been digested to pass, or that conditions, whatever they are, are interfering with her ability to have 'solid' Food pass from the Crop, to be proceed from there, anyway.


The mucous suggests to me that there are problems deep into the GI system...as well as that I suspect problems in the Crop and or Proventriculus themselves.

All of which could be a Trichomoniasis infection...or, there may be a Bacterial infection as well.

We also see reason to think her Oviduct may be infected, possibly from Organisms travelling up the Cloaca, into the Oviduct, if the Tissues in the Vent are slightly compromised or infected permitting it.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nora hasn't thrown up since I brought her into the house, (at least 12 hours), and has apparently been drinking OK. I gave her about 12cc of Kaytee gruel with a dab of Nutrical mixed in via tube about 40 minutes ago, and she seems calm and comfortable. I would have given her a few more CCs of the gruel, but she seemed to have "had enough" for the moment...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

See what shakes...keep an eye on the Crop to make sure it is passing...keep an eye on the poops/urates.


Are you lunbricating the Tube with a little Olive Oil so it slides down easy?


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Pidgey said:


> Those oviduct things can be kinda' rough... here's a link to one I wrote about this kinda' stuff several years ago:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html
> Pidgey


 I hope whatever is the matter with Nora is a lot simpler than that!

I have about 9 days until we leave for a week-and-a-half vacation, but the destination is close enough that I can commute home every 3 days to take care of the pigeons for a few hours (my pet sitter will feed & water them the other days, but doesn't really know what trouble looks like, and I can't ask him to do major cleanup or administer meds except in the water...)


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> See what shakes...keep an eye on the Crop to make sure it is passing...keep an eye on the poops/urates.
> Are you lubricating the Tube with a little Olive Oil so it slides down easy?


Yes, a bit of olive oil on the end of the tube. 
Will post next poop pics.
Since the pic in post #14 there have been about 3 more similar to it, but a little smaller, and less greenish stuff... mostly urates, I think.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Olive Oil lube for the first four inches of 'Tube'...not just on the 'end'...


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Olive Oil lube for the first four inches of 'Tube'...not just on the 'end'...


Thank you; I did not understand clearly how much of the tube should get oiled... thought the most critical part was that leading edge.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yer welcome...

I cut the No. 8 French Pediatric Urinary Catheters, to be about five inches long or so...and, I lube like thee and a half or four inches worth...so it slides all the way far-enough down, to be just above the bottom of the Crop anyway...and for it to slide in easy with no drag...leaving an insh or so, maybe a little less, between the Pigeon's Mouth, and, the Syringe Body proper.



Sometimes when they are ill, their Esophagus is relatively 'dry', other times not, but, regardless...best if the Tube has as close to no drag as possible.


I use the 'Trader Joes' Aerosol Olive Oil, intended to be lightly Sprayed onto Salads.

It will not spoil as the usual Liquid in a Bottle kind does, since in effect, olne never actually 'opens' it, and, it easy to lightly spray onto a 'Tube'.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I will look for that next time I'm at Trader Joe's; thanks for the tip. 
We shop there with some regularity but hadn't been looking at the oils.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Some of Nora's overnight poop: 








I'm not sure what to think about still seeing blood, though there's less than yesterday. 

Nora has not been accustomed to being handled, and is struggling more when I pick her up. She still does not want to leave the carrier when I need to tidy up (Junior wanted to walk around and investigate things) and starts the "you're in my space, get out" grunts as soon as she sees me reach for the latch. I hope that is a better than a worse thing, but I wish she were not so put off by "the hand."

She's had another ~12cc of Kaytee/Nutrical/Medistatin gruel this morning (tube well-oiled!) and will get her pill meds after I tend to the pigeons in the loft.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I have a few birds, hand raised from babies, that do not like to be handled at all as adults, lots of wing slapping and grunts anytime handling occurs, so Nora actions are not unusual.

Is her crop emptying OK, she is on Divet and the Metronidazole right now, right? The small egg, was it her first or second egg? Yes, still a touch of blood, but much better than yesterday.

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's the midday poop: 








Are whiter urates a Good sign? I thought they were, and yellowish ones bad...

@Karyn: Nora's crop seems to be emptying fine, she had 1 tab each of metronidazole and divet yesterday, and will get again today; Phil recommended 1/2 of a divet tab for today.. 

I think this was Nora's second egg, but I'm not sure; I found a normal size one broken on the floor below their box the other day, and the other pairs in their column of boxes (and the next one over) are already on dummy eggs, so I _think _that egg was Nora's too. I will keep an eye out for behavior that looks like "trying to lay an egg" - just in case...


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> Here's the midday poop:
> 
> Are whiter urates a Good sign? I thought they were, and yellowish ones bad...
> 
> ...



White urates are good, tinged urates, not so much. Meds sound fine, I asked about the crop emptying as I thought the droppings still looked like mostly bile, and I thought I would have seen a little more evidence of the Kaytee going through, we'll just keep an eye on the droppings. Glad to hear it's most likely her second egg, as this uncomplicates things a bit for Nora.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...poops appear to be Bile and no fecal matter.

White Urates are 'good'..!

We need to be seeing fecal matter to assure us that the Formula is being passed and digested.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nora has had about 9cc of Kaytee/Medistatin formula in late afternoon. Would have given more, but she seems to have been drinking well of the water, and I didn't want to overfill her crop. I'm waiting until her crop seems a lot emptier before giving more pills, and have taken away the drinker to keep her from "tanking up" on water. I want to give her more formula later after the pills...

Midafternoon & midevening poop pics below... 
This photo, from 3:30 pm got a bit washed out...








This one's from about 9pm... the green parts seem "grittier" than earlier


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



How many CCs of Formula has she had in the last 48 Hours, all tolled?


Seems like Liquids are seeping through...but it does not seem like anything else is getting through very well.


Are you confident this Pigeon was well 'Wormed' awhile back, with 2 Courses?


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> How many CCs of Formula has she had in the last 48 Hours


I've only had her in the house for 36 hours, and she's had about 30cc of formula. I have another 10cc ready to give her, but want to be sure she has room for it. She has been drinking water (some of which was rehydration fluid) regularly until I took it away (so she doesn't tank up on it and not have room for formula & pills). Her crop is emptying, but not as quickly as I'd like, though she seems comfortable (lounges on a wing or sits as nesting, not standing stiffly and looking uncomfortable). 



> Seems like Liquids are seeping through...but it does not seem like anything else is getting through very well. Are you confident this Pigeon was well 'Wormed' awhile back, with 2 Courses?


She had the same ivermectin in the water as the others... it was the only thing they had to drink for 24 hours, each time. I saw her drink at least once of the last Course, during the time I was in the coop, so I don't think she refused it, though I'm not sure exactly how much she drank.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Syndrome is similar-enough to Junior's...other than this one having a possible Oviduct infection involvement in addition.


Might also be her Egg-Process was sympathetically influenced and is not suffering any infection itself.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Syndrome is similar-enough to Junior's...other than this one having a possible Oviduct infection involvement in addition.
> Might also be her Egg-Process was sympathetically influenced and is not suffering any infection itself.


Would an individual dose of ivermectin (.1ml down the throat) be likely to do more good than harm?
I have got some here...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


I would like to see what others think, I have PM'd dobato...but, left to my own opinion, I think it might be well worth the Gamble.

If 'worms' come out the end, then, we can say, yes indeed, it was a good idea to 'worm' again...and the flock treatment may not have been successful with this one.


If not, then, at least one ( familiar for having accompanied so similar a syndrome ) variable has been eliminated.



Otherwise...for now, this Pigeon does seem rather clogged...

I would be tempted to feed only actual 'Liquid' Nutriments.

Such as 'Nutrical', and, unsweetened Black Cherry Juice, say...tubed in.

These will none the less make some real fecal matter, so...long as they are passing, we should see their results in that manner.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

I've just given Nora about 10cc of Nutrical/ACV/Medistatin cocktail instead of the rest of the Kaytee formula that I was going to give her. 
Hoping that will be easier on her and maybe get through her faster?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

And...

See what we have for Morning poops...


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> I've just given Nora about 10cc of Nutrical/ACV/Medistatin cocktail instead of the rest of the Kaytee formula that I was going to give her.
> Hoping that will be easier on her and maybe get through her faster?


Robin, good idea on going with pure liquids and holding the Kaytee for a bit , and I agree with Phil, I think a direct dose of Ivermectin, to be on the safe side, would be in order. Keep up the other meds and let's see how things go. Again, we a fortunate Nora is of very good body weight so it gives us a good amount of leeway.

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's Nora's overnight poop:









When I nudged her out of the cage to tidy up, then went to catch her to put her back in, she flew to get away, instead of walking or running...

I just gave her a dose of Ivermectin and put her drinker back in.
If I were she, I'd be wanting a chaser... though it was delivered plenty far down her throat.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

*Mid-day poops and the first worm!*

Here are the mid-day poops... first one from about 11am, second from about 2pm.








A worm in the leftmost poop below... I don't know whether to be relieved or chagrined. 








These poops don't look as slimy as the earlier ones; I hope that is an improvement.

Will post another update after I tend the other pij... 
I'm beginning to agree with that old post from Maggie in which she says she hates worms at least as much as other people hate canker. 

If I had another or a bigger cage, I would bring Big Red up here and dose him; since "sure as poop" if she has worms, he will too.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,



I am glad to see and hear/read the news of progress.


Poops do appear now to be showing some fecal matter, and less Bile.

To be on the safe side, I would think to have her on a Liquid Only Diet for the next four days or so...letting the previous Formula find it's way through, as possible Worms are letting go and finding their way out also.


Nora is likely feeling better to have her Canker receeding.


Well, I would say, when you are visiting your Loft, keep an Eye peeled for any of 'those' kinds of Poops such as Nora was making.


And or, consider to individually treat each Bird for Worms, with a follow up...to ensure everyone in fact recieves an adequate dose of the Wormer.

Do 'Big Red' also while in the groove..!



Lol...


Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

One more worm (on the left)... I half expected a few more by now...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How does her Crop seem to be passing?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, did you dose her the same amount, 0.10cc, of the .50% Ivermectin drench you used on Junior? If so, and as mentioned in the other thread, this amount is like one drop of the 1% many of us use (most of us use 2 drops), and I would be inclined to give her another 0.10cc of .50% Ivermectin 48 hours after the first dose you gave, to ensure we really clear her of these worms (also agree with Phil on keeping a good eye out, as well as doing a direct dosing on Big Red). As Phil mentions, her droppings look a touch better, we'll just follow the plan that worked for Junior on Nora and see how things go.

Also, because it seems worms were/are a problem in your loft I would consider, if at all possible, direct dosing all of your birds to make sure you try and truly end, well at least make the best attempt you can for now, the chance of continuing the circle of re-infection. Once this is done, for the first year I would put them on a 3-4 de-worming treatment a year plan and then move to a twice a year plan thereafter (or as signs indicate). From the size of the worms, it's almost like some latent eggs where able to hatch and not be fully eliminated by the Ivermectin in the water. Let's keep an eye out to see if any larger ones come out.

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

No worms in the latest poop; it looks similar to the most recent pic I posted.

@Phil -- Nora's crop seems to be passing, but possibly slowly (I'm not sure how fast it should empty). I took away the water again since she is drinking a fair amount (it is warm in the room where she is) and she keeps tanking up. I can see how much she's been drinking by looking at the "tank" part of her little drinker. The Crop is soft & pliable, like a squishy water balloon; I can't feel anything lumpy or odd about it, but if she's just been drinking and gets flustered when I pick her up to wrap her to administer anything, she spits up a little (not retching or the usual regurgitation, but almost like an overflow). After I take away the water for a while she is all right and I can give her pills and/or cocktail without any splashing. (I hope I am not doing a "wrong" thing). 

@Karyn -- I gave Nora the same Ivermectin Junior had (is 5mg/ml the same as .50%? I am not good at arithmetic today -- amount .1cc via syringe). I can give her another dose on Thursday morning. I'm not sure how to manage direct dosing Big Red, or the others; I only have cage room in the house for 1 pigeon at a time, and no secure workspace at all at the loft, let alone anything suitable for a first aid station or infirmary. 

If all goes as well as planned, all my pigeons will be moving to a brand new and clean coop by mid-September -- I expect to have the building on site by the end of August and take a couple weeks to build nest boxes, aviary, etc & finish the interior appointments.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, it's fine to remove the water so you don't accidentally have her crop contents come up when handling her, actually wise to do. Yes, the 5mg/mL is .50% Ivermectin and there are days when my math is not so good either, glad no new worms so far. I would not worry about doing this exactly as we did them for Nora or Junior, removing the water, but just go and pick each one out and dose them and move on to the next, right at the loft. I saw your thread in loft designs and it looks like they are going to have a super new home.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> No worms in the latest poop; it looks similar to the most recent pic I posted.
> 
> @Phil -- Nora's crop seems to be passing, but possibly slowly (I'm not sure how fast it should empty). I took away the water again since she is drinking a fair amount (it is warm in the room where she is) and she keeps tanking up. I can see how much she's been drinking by looking at the "tank" part of her little drinker. The Crop is soft & pliable, like a squishy water balloon; I can't feel anything lumpy or odd about it, but if she's just been drinking and gets flustered when I pick her up to wrap her to administer anything, she spits up a little (not retching or the usual regurgitation, but almost like an overflow). After I take away the water for a while she is all right and I can give her pills and/or cocktail without any splashing. (I hope I am not doing a "wrong" thing).



Yeah...pull her Water...allow her to drink only under supervision...and only lightly at that say, and at appropriate times.

The Liquid Nutriments Tube-Fed will mostly satisfy her hydration for now anyway.


She is thirsty because Crop is passing Liquids so slowly...so if allowed to, she will over-fill herself trying to slak her thirst...this can be very dangerous, as well as heavily diluting any Meds given orally if the Crop is full of Water already.



Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> She is thirsty because Crop is passing Liquids so slowly...so if allowed to, she will over-fill herself trying to slake her thirst...this can be very dangerous, as well as heavily diluting any Meds given orally if the Crop is full of Water already.


Her water has been pulled for a few hours... but crop is still pretty full, so I guess she really tanked up. I hope I have not allowed her to do herself a mischief.  

Is there anything I can/should do in the meantime, or is it just a matter of waiting until the crop empties enough that I can give her the pills? As full of water as she seems to be, I'm thinking the meds might be more important than the cocktail...

I probably should have pulled her water sooner, but I had to be away for several hours and had been reading (maybe reading too much, but there's so much I still don't know and need to learn!) about dehydration being a huge hazard for a sick bird, on top of everything else...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You could suction it out...so long as she does not get exicted or stressed for being held, to where she might start tensing and hence over-flowing where Aspiration of the Crop Liquids could occur ( lethally ).

If to suction out excess Crop Liquids...use a section of soft Catheter fitted to a 10 or 15 or 20 CC Syringe, with one hole as usual in the end, and, make another same size hole up on one side about 1/4 inch or less from the end...or, use a regular pediatric Urinary Catheter at it's full original length, which will already have dual offset holes in the end...and, be sensitive and gentle in the use of the Syringe...if any resistence is felt, reverse the procedure, push some fluid back so the end of the Catheter is free again, and resume.

Adminster meds ( Metronidazole, Medistatin, ACV-Water etc ) then...in solution, using maybe 1.5 CC worth of the ACV-Water...dissolving the Meds in the Syringe by putting them in first, then drawing up some ACV-Water...let sit, shake vigorously with extra air apsce in it so things can shake, make sure all is dissolved well.

If all is not dissolved well, dispence into a Shot Glass, crushing the Tablets inside by the Plunger bottoming out, draw some back in, have air space, shake, etc, then draw all of it in...

Some brands of Pills do not dissolve as easily as others.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nora definitely does not like to be handled, and struggles until I get the first wrap-tuck of the burrito done and sometimes until I get hold of her beak. 
She actually has a fair amount of "spunk" for a "sick bird." I've tried to "burrito" her twice today and gave up because her crop was too full and I didn't want to cause her to aspirate...

I don't think I dare risk trying to suction out liquid from her crop... I'd give it a go if she were calmer, or even lethargic, since I have an extra catheter that I haven't made into a feeding tube. 

Can I still give her the meds (metronidazole & 1/2 a divet) in pill form after her crop empties out some, or will they need to be made into suspension/solution and tubed?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 



When did she last have her Meds?


When will the Crop be empty again?


You can wait till her Crop is pretty well empty all on it's own, of course, and give her meds then.


You are giving the 'Medistatin' also twice a day? ( one way or another? )


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Robin,
> 
> When did she last have her Meds?
> When will the Crop be empty again?
> ...


She last had metronidazole and divet about 22 hours ago, so she's due.
Medistatin has been in the cocktail, and she had about 10cc 12 hours ago; about half an hour before I gave her the Ivermectin. 
Since then, not realizing that she shouldn't have had free access to water, I had let her drink freely, and she sure did , so I haven't been able to give her anything else yet.
I almost wish she'd just barf it all up... but otoh, don't want her to aspirate anything. 

Just checked on her, and her crop seems less, throughout the evening she's made about half a dozen poops like the ones on the right in post #43.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, since you are giving both the Metronidazole and Divet in pill form, I would chance popping them into her tonight, since you won't be adding anymore fluids and letting her be until tomorrow morning and see how things are then.

I think I posted this for you before, but if I didn't here it is again for how to "pop" a pigeon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow


Karyn


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn, thanks for the link. I wish my pigeons were that cooperative!
So far, I haven't had any trouble pilling the birds, once they're in the burrito wrap... 

I'm going to wait another hour or two before pilling Nora; her crop still has more in it than I want to risk, since she gets panicky when I pick her up, set her in my lap, and begin to wrap her.

I don't think I've done anything awful to her, but she gets a bit agitated (grunts vigorously, breathes a little hard) every time my hand approaches her, though she doesn't try to winglap me or get away, but sort of stands her ground. When I touch her shoulders lightly, she seems to calm down and then doesn't seem to mind when I check her crop...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sounds good to me also...

'Pop' the Tablets/Pills tonight, and, overnight, her Crop will likely empty the rest of the way, and this will have worked out well enough then.

I usually like to dissolve the Pills/Tablets and Tube them in, when dealing with iffy Crop passing ones, but, yours being something of a Winged 'Water-Baloon' presently, it is best to play it safe and not risk any inconvenient or dangerous 'gushings'.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

rfboyer said:


> Karyn, thanks for the link. I wish my pigeons were that cooperative!
> So far, I haven't had any trouble pilling the birds, once they're in the burrito wrap...



It is usually greatly easier that way! Lol...




> I'm going to wait another hour or two before pilling Nora; her crop still has more in it than I want to risk, since she gets panicky when I pick her up, set her in my lap, and begin to wrap her.



Regular 'pilling', I seem to manage, even with 'difficult' Pigeons, setting them on my Lap, on a Towel, and bringing up part of the Towel so it prevents them from backing up...and, I sort of stabalize their Head, keeping it high, open the Beak, and 'Bink!' Push the Pill into the rear of their Throat, where, they swallow ( instead of waiting a few seconds and spitting it out ).


'Pilling' a Chicken is "HELL ON EARTH" far as I am concerned...it is like a fight to the death...Oye...


Count yer blessings!!!




> I don't think I've done anything awful to her,




Lol...

No, you have not done anything aweful to her.


But, you know now, ye gotta pull their Water once seeing any signs of a slow or iffy Crop...lest they over-drink, where, then you have that to complicate matters.





> ...but she gets a bit agitated (grunts vigorously, breathes a little hard) every time my hand approaches her, though she doesn't try to winglap me or get away, but sort of stands her ground. When I touch her shoulders lightly, she seems to calm down and then doesn't seem to mind when I check her crop...



Any soothing or calming or loving gesture things are good.

Talking to them, explaining what you need to do, and why, stuff like that.

Show her the Pill...bring it up to your Mouth, pretend to be nibbling it with sound effects and so on, then hold it up to her mouth/Beak.


I have seen at least a handfull of occasions where even a Wild Pigeon new to me, willingly pecked and ate the darned Pill or Tablet, for me explaining and demonstrating what we needed to do.


Nice work when you can get it!!!


I tell them it is a 'Special Seed' of yes, a different shape than usual Seeds, but, which will help for how they are not feeling good.



Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Wednesday morning report & overnight poops... one more tiny translucent worm, right in the middle, though the pic doesn't show it very well 









Nora's crop still seemed pretty full at 3am, so I waited until this morning to give her anything. 
She was a lot calmer about being burrito'd, so must have been really uncomfortable after overfilling herself with water yesterday.

She's had a metronidazole tab, 1/2 a divet, and ~9cc of nutrical cocktail with medistatin (started with 10cc but I was a little clumsy and squitzed some while getting the air out of the tube; guess I should have had my coffee first  )
I have withheld her water; the plan is to give her more cocktail before lunchtime, as her crop empties.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good. Best, as Phil mentions, to control all her fluids right now, she will get enough hydration from the cocktails, as Junior did, for a few days and let's give the meds a chance to get things moving better through her. You may want to let her crop completely empty before giving her another cocktail, I wouldn't mind trying to get a better idea how long the 10mL from the cocktail takes to empty from her crop, plus I wouldn't mind seeing everything in there completely drain out as well. Yes, I can make out the worm, any thoughts on doing the other birds?

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Here's the latest; the texture seems to be improving, doesn't it? 
Do I recall correctly that Medistatin can make the urates yellowish, or is some evil at work here?











Dobato said:


> Sounds good. Best, as Phil mentions, to control all her fluids right now, she will get enough hydration from the cocktails...
> You may want to let her crop completely empty before giving her another cocktail, I wouldn't mind trying to get a better idea how long the 10mL from the cocktail takes to empty from her crop...
> I can make out the worm, any thoughts on doing the other birds?


IF I can get a friend (a retired hospital lab tech) to help me refill syringes, etc., I "should" be able to direct dose all of them at the coop. 
Friend knows less than I do about handling birds, but if I catch and burrito them and have him prepare the syringes & hand them to me, we can probably do them all the same day (unless he burns out on it, or unless I totally fail to catch a bird). Since many of them are on wooden eggs, those should be easier to catch.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

rfboyer said:


> IF I can get a friend (a retired hospital lab tech) to help me refill syringes, etc., I "should" be able to direct dose all of them at the coop. Friend knows less than I do about handling birds, but if I catch and burrito them and have him prepare the syringes & hand them to me, we can probably do them all the same day (unless he burns out on it, or unless I totally fail to catch a bird). Since many of them are on wooden eggs, those should be easier to catch.


Sounds like a good plan. Nora's droppings are finally looking more like a dropping, which is a bit of a relief. Yes, the Medistatin will tinge her droppings, so don't ache your mind too much on that right now. Just keep her flushed with the cocktails and meds for a few days and we'll start to add the Kaytee back in before too long.

Robin, I also think this plan is for the best, as it will only take a few worms surviving in your birds, and reproducing, to keep the worm problem present in your loft and Nora has proved that worms did survive in her and there may be other birds as well. With you moving them all into a new loft, before too long, we want to nip this in the bud, in order to not bring along any very unwanted guests.

Karyn


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How many birds do you have? If you can't catch them, then can you darken the coop so that they don't fly? And then grab them?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin, 


You could get some kids eatible Watercolor Paint ( it would wash off later ) and with a small bit of sponge or something, 'mark' the back or shoulder of each Pigeon whom you have given the new Worm dose to...since you have quite a few Pigeons, and, it'd be nice to be able to say positively, that you got every one.


You could just prepare your own Syringes in advance easily enough...

If say, you have five Syringes, prep them, do their doses, rinse them in some Bleach Water, rinse in plain Water, re-prep...dose...easy and fast.


Jay3 is right on about the advantages of 'darkness' for catching the little Harpies.


Possibly you could set up a Chair, Folding Table, Towels, and Lamp, in the Coop.

Lamp "off", catch the candidate, turn Lamp on, do the deed, mark the Shoulder, release, Lamp "off" catch the next one, etc.


Or, if you have a friend to help who can do the catching safely, you could stay seated.



Phil
Lv


Like that.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> How many birds do you have? If you can't catch them, then can you darken the coop so that they don't fly? And then grab them?


I have 33 pigeons total... almost too many.  
I "rescued" about 7 that I hadn't originally planned to take, when Lou's other birds were sold, and one more that turned up a few days later, apparently having escaped while we were moving birds around (he's 10 years old and I'm fairly certain he wasn't bought by anyone at the first sale, or if he was, he hasn't been reported missing). 
He hung around outside my aviary checking out the hens, and I recognized him, so I let him come in.  

Can only darken the coop if I wait until evening... or a really dark stormy day. 

I don't expect much trouble catching them; I can get the nesting pairs into their compartments and shut the gates, which would leave only 3 OB and 3 YB at large, and there are enough extra compartments to confine them once I've caught them. 

ETA: Pic below of Big Bar & Teena in their nest compartment -- their bowl is offscreen to the left, and the yellow divider swings out to fasten near Teena's head, to make a larger enclosed space.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Nora took 15cc of Cocktail about an hour ago without a fuss. 
I was going to give it to her earlier, but thought her crop still felt too squishy, so I waited... 

Latest poop, from 7pm. Not wonderful, but better than it was!


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Robin,


If you have a friendly Vet of any sort...Horse Vet even, anyone who has the right Meds, and, you'd need a tiny 1 cC Syringe for doing the injections...so, maybe see about some injectible Anti-Inflamitory...'Reglan' for example.


It can help in instances like this, for the Passages to relax or dialate a little, allowing Meds then to pass better, etc...onward...meds pass better, conditions improve with that then...

Right now you are sort of stuck in a viscious circle...meds taking too long to pass, is then taking too long to be absorbed, taking too long to work, etc.


This is easy to do, injections occur in the Breast Muscle along the Keel...tiny short Needle...if the Vet can not show you how, others here could.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

A surprise! I thought the tiny egg was Nora's second one. 
Apparently not... no wonder she didn't want to walk around much.










Is that a smirk on her face, or what? 

Egg looks "pretty normal" though it does have a fair amount of urates and a very tiny streak of blood on it.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yipes!


I bet she feels better getting that out of the way..!


Meds are helping...

This was hung up in her Oviduct for what, some while anyway...so...this is good.


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> I bet she feels better getting that out of the way..!
> Meds are helping...
> This was hung up in her Oviduct for what, some while anyway...so...this is good.


The tiny egg was laid Sunday, late morning, from what I could tell (it was still wet when I went into the coop around lunch time). 
So, it took her 3.5 days instead of the usual 2, to get the second one out.  But, at least this one seems normal... 

Does or will she need a calcium boost, and if so, how given? 
The last poop had a small streak of blood among the urates and a bigger watery "puddle" on the paper towel than the other recent ones; is that likely to be related to the egg? 
Is there anything else I should be on the lookout for?


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

*Nora has passed! *

I just went to check on her, and found her sitting on her egg, _dead_! 

And just when we thought it was looking better for her! I had just checked on her again less than half an hour ago.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OMG Robin, I am so very sorry to hear this, shocked in fact. I was catching up with the thread happy to see the droppings, happier to see the egg and this???? I myself will have to think about what may have happened to her, she does not look that bad at all in the photo of her and her new egg, perhaps others will venture an opinion. Please accept my sincerest condolences.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh no...


I am so sorry Robin.


I sure did not see this coming at all.


I am very sad to hear this.


Phil
Lv


----------



## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

Karyn and Phil, thanks for your condolances, and for your help with Nora.

I think she passed in relative comfort... and we did the best we could for her.
I wonder, was she was just "hanging in there" until she could lay that egg? 

Thanks again, for your help, and especially for your kindness.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Robin, I PMed Phil my first thoughts on this and that is that some kind of toxic event took place precipitated by Nora laying this egg, perhaps oviduct related or GI related. There is also the possibility of heart related issues, but somehow I feel that if it were heart related, she would have passed closer to the laying. My vet is on vacation for a few weeks, when he comes back I'll run it by him.

If I may, on a another note, please do pick up the liquid Baytril from your vet you mentioned and please keep us updated on the de-worming progress.

Again, this is just so sad.......

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am dabbing my eyes literally.

I just have no good idea what would account for her demise, especially as it occurred.


I was expecting a good recovery process, with whatever minor ups and downs it would entail.


Her condition, so far as we may be imagined to have understood it, was indeed 'serious', but, the medicines and regimen she was receiving were very well considered, constantly monitored and being adjusted in various ways, and, would be expected to see her recover nicely over some days...while also precluding new illness or infection from gaining any ground.


Her spirits seemed good, and there was no suggestion of decline...or if anything, she was positively feeling better every day, as far as I could gather...it seemed things were indeed going well on all fronts.


I was concerned we were not seeing more for poops from the prior formula feeding period, but, the beginnings of these were being passed, as her system was slowly gaining ground.


I am stumped.


As Karyn proposes, some sort of Septicemia or Toxic-Blood borne condition, resulting from a cyst or abcess or other localization of Bacteria suddenly finding enough entrance into her Blood Stream...I suppose could do this...but how odd for it to be so sudden, with no gradual decline of say, at least conspicuously, over some Hours anyway.


I suppose Heart failure or Stroke could do it, but, again, is certainly not what one would have expected...and Heart Failure, depending on what sort, if from advancing infection or blockage, I would expect her to have thrashed and had her Head back, but, I don't know...I am only thinking out loud.


Well, to have gone out peacefully, while Brooding, has at least a tender dignity to it.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There could have been a pressure necrosis inside from the long pressure that caused some kind of weakening of an artery that then let loose when the egg passed or something like that. Only a necropsy would tell. I'm very sorry to hear of her passing.

Pidgey


----------

