# I'm frantic to save this baby bird



## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

I have what I think is a baby Robin that needs help, really bad. I know his parents threw him out of the nest & wouldn't take him back because of his problem so I nursed him back to health. 

I was reading at this site about air sacs so that's why I am asking for help, here, & hope it's okay, being, this bird is of a different feather than those this site's about. 

He has two air sacs on each side on his back that take up almost a third of his tiny body & connect to his crop area & it looks like one great big bubbly mess. 

After eating his crop expands into the same transparent looking bubble. The crop & each bubbled side on his back has two sections. So all around his head is surrounded by what looks like five bubbles after he eats. I hope this can be popped, too, somehow like the success story at the thread here called, "Incredible inflatable bird (air sac rupture pics)" 

I can't take this little fighter to a vet because they will probably destroy him as he'll need constant care they won't be able to give. He's such a fighter & when he wants to eat he's loud & up in the air standing on his own letting us know. Between feedings, though, he seems not able to use his legs that well as I think it may be because he's just so young. At least, I hope that's the reason. They flop at his sides in the most uncomfortable looking way that worries me most of the time. When he wants to scurry under the grass I have in his box or to a corner, he gets there with no problem, though. He just seems so wobbly. 

I'm not sure he's even a Robin. He still has fuzz on his head & body with black & grey or white looking pin feathers, like streaks, & his wings have those same feathers & they're covered. Down his back he has those same black & white or maybe it's grey, I can't tell, feathers that look like a mohawk & the rest of him is naked. His tail is square & short. He has yellow on the sides of his beak. 

He shoots little sacs of poop out when I feed him. I don't even know if he's a him but he feels like one. Those poops don't seem so little compared to him as they're almost as big as his head. It's white with a black tip in a protective sack, now, that's he's recovered. 

He wasn't pooping at first when he was found & it started out just white & runny. No sack. 

I looked at pictures on the net but it didn't help me identify his species. I think it's a Robin because I've had him three days & the diet I've been giving him has made him strong so I think I guessed right. I hope I have. I read if you feed them the wrong diet it would be toxic. 

I had a very hard time getting hold of anyone at first at the wild life rehab centers & didn't even know we weren't supposed to feed abandoned or injured birds until I got on the net & learned. If I followed that rule, he would have starved by the time I received a call back & died. 

I have called every rehab center in my area & some outside, for help, to no avail. Our main expert here in Ohio is Fran Kitchen but she's camping. When I was younger Fran worked with me to educate me in helping injured & abandoned birds but that was 16 years ago so I am rusty & at a loss & no one will help me by giving advice as by law they say they are not allowed. 

I spoke this morning to a vet I was referred to & they said I could bring him in, they called it, surrender, but I know they'll euthanize him. If this bubble can't be corrected he won't be released in the wild & I can't bear to take him to the vet knowing his chances will be slim to none to be loved & cared for. 

He eats every 45 minutes & I am worn out after three days & nights. My oldest Granddaughter has been helping me but I have the nights to tend to by myself. I have recruited help & they are coming to take shifts. 

I would gladly buy a licence just to save this little guy & any others I come across to get past that law if anyone can advise me on this. 

He was unresponsive when my son first brought him to me three days ago. He found him, almost, under a bushy pine tree. He had heavy labored breathing & no voice. No chirping until 24 hours later. He could not even sit up. Still doesn't sit that well but is doing better & better. 

I first got water in him & he seemed to revive a bit so I could get some pureed worm into him. He's eating chunks now & I smash organic apple & insects my Granddaughter gathers. I just added a bit of tomato & would appreciate any suggestions for his diet. I'm watching his poop carefully so it remains healthy looking & in the sack. The only insects so far are ants as I'm afraid to harm him with flies or mosquitoes. 

He seems to be needing fed every 45 minutes as he starts begging so I have been setting an alarm all through the night & I can't wait for the recruits to come. I feed him until he stops opening his mouth & hope I'm not over feeding him. I need help with those bubbles & advice on his diet, please. I can't believe no one will advise me under these circumstances so my hope is in you here who care & are expert. 

He's a feisty little guy my Granddaughters call Erwin & all my family & friends are telling me that his only hope is being with us at this point. He looks really gross as the last person stated who just saw him. I could upload a photo I think, so I'll go work on that.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Marsha, I am going out for a bit, but will try and check in before turning in for the night. Does your little one look anything like the bird in the link below? We need to start by you posting up some good, clear photos (like in the link) for us to get a better idea of what's going on and photos of any fresh droppings.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=383652&postcount=12

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Can you post a pic? I don't really know anything about robins, but I'd just like to see exactly what you mean by..err...bubbles... Also, huge poops are pretty normal, I hosted a baby robin "Einstein" who's poops where all about the size of his head too. Einstein liked wet, mushy cat food... since robins are carnivores, worms are good too. Does he have feathers? If he does I might identify him...?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sounds like airsac rupture...treatable, curable....Baby Robins are small....


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

Oh wow. I didn't expect such fast replies. Thank you all. Yes, Dobato, that's him. Is that a Robin? Erwin's bubbles are more smooth as this one looks a little rugged with cracks. Is that because he was poked, maybe? And Erwin's are equal looking on both sides as if perfect in being identical & flawless as in smooth. He reminds me of a little bird wearing a life perserver. 

I am waiting for a friend to come help me upload photos & will post them as soon as I can. His poop is runny again. No sac. Could that be because I'm giving him more water & it may be too much? And after he eats is it okay that he goes right to sleep till the next feeding? I hope. And his breathing is no where near the tragedy it was when I first saw him but sometimes he seems to be breathing a little fast & hard after eating. Could that be because the airsacs are hampering him? I hope not. I fear he may be suffering but he loves to eat so much, I just can't tell. 

So then I should add cat food to his diet? 

And Jaye. you lifted my heart in hope for the little guy. Thank you so much. 

I just got here but already I love you guys. 

Yes he has feathers, November, he looks just like the bird in the picture Dobato sent.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Marsha, here are a couple of links that you may find useful:

http://www.goosemoose.com/rfc/index.php?topic=8199.5;wap2

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/robin/FAQBabies.html

The cure for a ruptured airsac is to carefully piece the bubble with a sterilized pin to let the air escape, this may need to be done a number of times, over a few days, to allow the tear inside to heal and not inflate, you have to only insert the needle a tiny bit, not deep at all, to release the air, you can very gently push pressure on the bubble to help the air come out. Sometimes they can heal without doing this, but this is generally what is done if the bubbles are interfering with breathing or eating and they also sometimes need to go on antibiotics to help with the healing as instead of a tear it's an infection causing the leak inside (just to know, do you have any antibiotics around the house?). Before doing this, best post up a few photos.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Might also be aerophagia--he tries so hard to swallow that he ends up swallowing air. In order to get a better handle on that, go read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/4-day-old-hatchling-52404.html

Pidgey


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

*erwin the starling*

[/ATTACH] this is a fighter for sure!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

keep him warm with a heating pad on low under the box..


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

*Update on Erwin*



Dobato said:


> Marsha, I am going out for a bit, but will try and check in before turning in for the night. Does your little one look anything like the bird in the link below? We need to start by you posting up some good, clear photos (like in the link) for us to get a better idea of what's going on and photos of any fresh droppings.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=383652&postcount=12
> 
> Karyn


I have identified Erwin as a Starling & hope the pictures my friend sent helps to determine if Erwin's air sacs should be popped. I'm so glad I didn't take him to the vet as this species would certainly be destroyed from all I've learned. 

Starling's eyes open on the 7th day so he's probably nine days old now. 

This is day four, we've had him, & his feathers are almost covering the air sacs, now. At first, there were no feathers & you could just see those sacs. At this rate, by tomorrow, if I'd found him then, I would not have, even, seen those air sacs. His crop is getting feathers, too, so the bubble looking transparency will soon be all gone, too. 

Someone here commented that maybe it's normal for Erwin to have these sacs. I hope the picture is clear enough so a good evaluation can be made so I know what to do. 

I'm not sure if the air sacs are interfering with his breathing & he's in distress but they certainly are not affecting his eating. 

If it's determined the air sacs should be popped should I have antibiotics ready? And what kind or maybe my vet will know when I go there to get them? 

His poop picture, sent here, has a lot of black if you can see & before this, white had dominated. Since that picture taken today, it is back to having more white & no black, replaced by brown, the color of the dog food, in the fully secured sac, since I took him off the fishing worms last night. It is a sack, like a tear drop with a lot of black in this picture because we had been feeding him fishing worms as the ones we dug up from the yard, when we first got Erwin, were gone. 

We thought it would be easier to just buy them. 

In horror, as I read more & more about Starlings, I learned he could get parasites or disease from those fishing worms & immediately stopped giving them to him replacing them with Cesar dog food. The gourmet filets in sauce. I rinse the sauce off in hot water to warm it since I keep it in the fridge & suspect the sauce would not be good for him. He loves it. Actually the little piggy would probably love anything he's such a good eater. 

His diet was mostly those fishing worms for almost two twenty four hour cycles so I assume that's why his poop had so much black in that picture & I hope they didn't harm him. Do you think I should get some antibiotics just to be sure he's okay? 

Those worms had so much dirt in them I had to wash the bits I cut up & the second day started leaving more of that dirt thinking the Momma bird went from regurgitating to feeding them chunks so some of that dirt would remain. 

Thinking it needed nutrition I let him have more of that dirt in my ignorance. When I learned of the potential harm I was scared for Erwin. 

I just now fed him, again, as I do every 45 minutes. His poop was in the sack but the end was broken & it leaked a bit. It was leaking the brown color of the really moist dog food, I'd started feeding him last night with bits of tomato & smushed apple. (I also dip the dog food, with tweezers, in water to be sure he's getting enough water. I had been giving him 3 drops each feeding, at first, until I learned he could be harmed by that, too.) His poop did have a trail that tapered off, this last time, like in the picture at this link that is said to be a healthy poop for Starlings; 

http://www.starlingtalk.com/babycare.htm 

It was that brown same color leaking, that tapered off, & streamed thinly into a spot of brown in the middle of all the white in the sac. About half & half, white & brown, altogether, with those three spots being brown. 

I'd send a new picture but my friend's camera died & he doesn't have his charger with him so I have no pictures to show you. 

This is the first time I've seen the long black stream tapering off in Erwin's poop like in the picture at that link. 

Erwin's has been rounded until now & did not trail off like in that picture before now. 

Here's the ingredients in the Cesar dog food I'm feeding him; 

Ingredients: Sufficient water for processing, chicken, liver, beef, meat by-products, wheat gluten, starch, pea fiber, salt, minerals (potassium chloride, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide), sodium tripolyphosphate, iron oxide, color added, vitamins (vitamin A, D3, and E supplements, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate [vitamin B1], biotin), new york strip flavor, guar gum, xanthan gum 
Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 5.6% 

Here's what I found among many diets so if you think this will be more healthy for him, I'll switch; 

"Handfeeding Mixture for Baby Starlings" 

"The handfeeding recipe below supplies a balanced diet for baby starlings. When making the recipe, use an appropriate dry dog food or cat food that has been soaked in water, and remember to be sure that chicken or meat is the first ingredient on the label. Check the avian vitamin package for the right amount of vitamins to use since different vitamins have different recommendations." 

Recipe: Handfeeding Mixture 

1 cup soaked dog/cat food 
1/4 cup of applesauce 
1 hard boiled egg 
Avian vitamins (follow dosage on package) 
Around 750 mg calcium (I use Tums Smooth Dissolve tablet) ground to powder and dissolved in a little water. 
Water 

Mix all ingredients together, and add enough water to make it the consistency of cooked oatmeal as seen in the photo at right. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
I'd like to keep him on the same dog food I feed my Poms & add vitamins, fruits, veggies or whatever is suggested, if it can be determined that would be good enough for him. 

I'm sorry to ask so much of you. I will be glad to make a decent donation to helping our feathered friends to wherever is thought beneficial for the education I'm asking for here. I am so fortunate & glad I have found this forum. 

I have contacted two others but so far, it's only been this forum that has helped me. 

Love & Thanks, 
Marsha


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Marsha, now that you have identified Erwin as a Starling and have found the Starling Talk forum, it may be best to get some guidance from some of the members there who deal with Starlings on a daily basis and see what they think. From the look of it Erwin does have an airsac problem and they can be torn/ruptured or there can be problems with the value system that causes air to leak, most caused by bacteria, that is what the antibiotics would be used to treat, not because you would be piercing the skin with a needle.

I myself have zero experience with Starlings, so I sure wouldn't mind seeing what they think over there would be the best course of action, before making recommendations that might not be correct for your little guy. Please let us know what they say would be best to do and they will certainly be best able to guide you with what to feed and how to feed.

If you feel at anytime he is declining and you have not receive an answer soon there, we'll see what we can do here. I am going to PM Pidgey to have another look in on your thread, as he is a rehabber and may, now that you got the photos up, have an opinion on things. You never did say whether you have any antibiotics on hand, and if so, what kind and what strength.

Karyn


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Starlings make wonderful pets, and are legal to keep as pets.
Daryl


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...

I have had Baby Pigeons and Doves who had the ruptured Air Sacs, and, I just let the matter resolve on it's own, which in these cases, seemed to take about a week or so.

I have never 'popped' one, and would hope I never feel I had to.


Yes, 'Fishing Worms' or 'Earth Worms' are something to avoid.


Fresh ripe Cherries, Bartlet Pear, Apricot...( but remove the skin from the latter two ) are good, and, Cherries are understood to help the youngster/Baby assimilate Calcium and related Bone making and Muscle building nutrients from their normal foods.

Wash hands and fingers VERY well prior to feeding, of course...

One can look around one's area and or ask Audubon people, what wild Berries and other foods or what insects the Starlings are known to eat, and, just pretty well use those.


Here are some images of one I had some years ago...what a sweetie, very bright and very smart too -


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/392687642kCSdWu


Do not attempt to give Water - they get their Hydration form their foods.


I fed this one pre-soaked Goji Berries cut into tiny bites...canned Water Pack two layer Sardines ( the spines and skin mostly but the flesh also ), fresh ripe Cherries...Pear...Elderberries, Mulberries...bits of shredded Cilantro, fresh raw Sushi from a Sushi Bar...palitable Sea Weeds, with the little bites rubbed lightly in some fresh Olive Oil also.


I absolutely distrust ( the inimical Bacterial content of ) 'Meal Worms' and I will not use them.




Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

More images of the Baby?

Views form the side, from the rear, from the front, and, and from their Eye level and closer.

So far, this really looks a lot more like a Baby Sparrow.


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

Thanks for all the tips, guys. I loved seeing the pictures of the Starling, pdpbison. I'm not able to add pictures right now until my friend comes back but I agree as I looked up pictures of baby sparrows that he is one. And I would rather let the air sacs resolve themselves without popping, if I can. One is barely visible now that his feathers are covering him. I am almost ready to head out for antibiotics my vet said I could come get. He knows I have a bird & I hope he gives me the correct antibiotic & dose for the little guy. Going on five days now so I hope so much he makes it. No one would tell me anything that I called for help as they said by law they couldn't so I messed up. I gave him water & worry pneumonia will set in & the worms I gave him, I read last night I wouldn't know if he was harmed for up to 5 or 6 days. I am still frantic over this bird. Any advise on the antibiotics I'm going to get? I'll be leaving as soon as I can but it will be at leasy an hour. I was going to pick up some meal worms for him but now I won't & would like to know, considering he's a Sparrow, what can I pick up that would be good for his diet in the way of insects so he gets enough protein? I am still giving him Cesar dog food, tomatoes & apples. I gave him a blueberry this morning. I'm relieved he's not a Starling as much as having one intrigues me. I was considering the commitment & the fact I'm not in very good health so I began worrying what would happen to him if something happened to me. My family could care for a Sparrow but I don't know if they would be able to meet the constant needs of a Starling. I need to find a Sparrow forum now but in the meantime would really appreciate any further help I can get here.


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

Oh & i have been giving him vitamins, too.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Marsha McClelland said:


> Any advise on the antibiotics I'm going to get?


We would usually want to go with something like Trimethoprim/Sulfa, one because it is really quite an effective antibiotic for a number of kinds of infections and two, it is a drug of choice for very young/small birds.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

*Erwin's antibiotic & does it deal with parasites?*



Dobato said:


> We would usually want to go with something like Trimethoprim/Sulfa, one because it is really quite an effective antibiotic for a number of kinds of infections and two, it is a drug of choice for very young/small birds.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Karyn


Hi Karyn. Thank you. I just got back from the vet. I had to drive quite a way as I'm staying with my son in Portage County & I live in Summit County where I had to go to the vet that takes care of my dogs. He was very disappointing to me with the answers he gave me. He's old & already misdiagnosed my friends dog which led to death so I will be finding a new one. 

He gave me Amoxiccillin but if that's not good enough & you think I should call to see if he carries this one you recommend, I'll go back. I don't think I can get it any where else unless I have an account because the new receptionist there asked me to verify I had an account. 

I asked about it fighting any parasites Erwin may have gotten from those fishing worms & he said not to worry. That's not going to happen, he said. I have four to five more days to have to worry that parasites may get Erwin from the research I've done so I am going to worry. Is there anything I could be doing to ward off parasites that anyone knows of? 

I told him about the air sacs & my fear of bacteria & he said to give this tiny, probably no more than ten day old, Sparrow 2 drops daily. 

With the drops of water I gave him at first, & not supposed to, I'm worried about aspiration & pneumonia setting in still, too. And he said not to worry about that, either. He said to give him water. I told him I read of the danger & told him he could be no more than 10 days old & he repeated, give him drops of water & dismissed me. 

I have been reading so much on Starlings for three days & now that I know he's a Sparrow, I wonder if the care would be the same for both species? Jackie's Starling site includes Sparrows but there are no specifics like there are on the Starlings. 

I have to find time to read up now on Sparrows diet & care but thought you or someone else could help me short cut the studying I need to do, in the mean time. 

LOL. I put him on a dish on a napkin while I changed his bedding & when I went to put him back he jumped off the plate onto my hand & scooted up my arm. I love this little guy & hope so much he doesn't get sick. I am still worried about those worms. And pneumonia. He extended his neck this morning & kept his mouth open about 30 seconds & nearly scared me to death.


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

PS

I am trying to find time to take my needs for Ewin to the proper site such as Jackie's Starling site but am having a hard time. I am already a bit familiar with you here as you replied to me when others hadn't but I don't want to bee a pest when this site is not about Sparrows. I found time to read the rules at the Starling message board & had no idea of the restrictions so already I owe an apology. I found them in a Google & posted right away which broke a rule so I worry I'm on bad terms with them from the start. I'm going there as soon as I can today because I need all kinds of help besides this emergency you are helping me here with. It's time to feed Erwin.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Marsha, first, no need to apologize for anything and in no way are you a pest, you are in exactly in the right section of this forum to ask any question you have about birds other than pigeons and doves, so there is no problems there. I recommended the Starling Talk forum because at the time you said you had identified Erwin as a Starling and they have way more knowledge there on these birds.

As I mentioned, I have no experience with Starling, but I would think that since Starling and Sparrows for requirements would be about the same, as to be when I have watched them they both seem pretty omnivorous. I would also think the same rules would apply about giving water, that these bird get their water requirements, when young, from the food their parents feed them. So as Phil has mentioned bits of juicy cherries, grapes, raspberries and blueberries should help with this, as well as feeding the kinds of food Phil suggested that have a high moisture level, sardines and such.

The Amoxicillin should be just fine, it has a wide safety margin, so pretty hard to over dose this med and is also used in young and small birds, please follow the directions you were given. I think you are doing just swell, under the circumstances.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Marsha McClelland said:


> Thanks for all the tips, guys. I loved seeing the pictures of the Starling, pdpbison. I'm not able to add pictures right now until my friend comes back but I agree as I looked up pictures of baby sparrows that he is one. And I would rather let the air sacs resolve themselves without popping, if I can. One is barely visible now that his feathers are covering him. I am almost ready to head out for antibiotics my vet said I could come get. He knows I have a bird & I hope he gives me the correct antibiotic & dose for the little guy. Going on five days now so I hope so much he makes it. No one would tell me anything that I called for help as they said by law they couldn't so I messed up. I gave him water & worry pneumonia will set in & the worms I gave him, I read last night I wouldn't know if he was harmed for up to 5 or 6 days. I am still frantic over this bird. Any advise on the antibiotics I'm going to get? I'll be leaving as soon as I can but it will be at leasy an hour. I was going to pick up some meal worms for him but now I won't & would like to know, considering he's a Sparrow, what can I pick up that would be good for his diet in the way of insects so he gets enough protein? I am still giving him Cesar dog food, tomatoes & apples. I gave him a blueberry this morning. I'm relieved he's not a Starling as much as having one intrigues me. I was considering the commitment & the fact I'm not in very good health so I began worrying what would happen to him if something happened to me. My family could care for a Sparrow but I don't know if they would be able to meet the constant needs of a Starling. I need to find a Sparrow forum now but in the meantime would really appreciate any further help I can get here.



Hi Marsha,


What makes you think he is sick?


And...

No more 'Tomatoes' please...that could be a bad thing, I do not know for sure, but, I would not risk it.

I have never heard of any kind of Song Birds eating Tomatoes ( which is a Nightshade or Solanaceae family of Plants and hence iffy for many Species).


The diet I mentioned worked well for many dozens of orphan Baby infant Sparrows, and, every other Song Bird like/related Baby I ever had come in, everyone thrived...


Antibiotics will not do anything to eliminate endoparasites.


This Baby is also too young for a safe use of anti-parasitic Medicines most likely, anyway.


Can you post some images of the Baby, different views, made from his own eye level instead of like before?

And, good close up images of his fresh poops?


If the Baby does need Meds which are only available in a liquid form or a powder one mizes with liquid, then, use tiny 'Bread Balls', loosely rolled tiny bits of soft Bread, no bigger than a 'BB', and, add the 'drops' of Medicine to them, and, feed those.

DO NOT GIVE THE BABY WATER OR ANY OTHER LIQUIDS IN THE MOUTH OR BEAK!!!!


Too dangerous!

Forget pnuemonia, it is going to be hours of watching them wrything and dieing and spazzing on their side, because part of one tiny drop went into their Trachia.

They do not live long enough to get an Aspiration Pnuemonia usually in these kinds of mishaps...it is like "right now" and then instant horror and anguish for however long they lay there convulsing and thrashing and gasping, till death.



Your old Vet is not up to speed on this stuff...


Best wishes!

Phil
Lv


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

*Erwin is doing well*



Dobato said:


> Marsha, first, no need to apologize for anything and in no way are you a pest, you are in exactly in the right section of this forum to ask any question you have about birds other than pigeons and doves, so there is no problems there. I recommended the Starling Talk forum because at the time you said you had identified Erwin as a Starling and they have way more knowledge there on these birds.
> 
> As I mentioned, I have no experience with Starling, but I would think that since Starling and Sparrows for requirements would be about the same, as to be when I have watched them they both seem pretty omnivorous. I would also think the same rules would apply about giving water, that these bird get their water requirements, when young, from the food their parents feed them. So as Phil has mentioned bits of juicy cherries, grapes, raspberries and blueberries should help with this, as well as feeding the kinds of food Phil suggested that have a high moisture level, sardines and such.
> 
> ...


I feel much better now about giving him that antibiotic. Thanks for everything, Karyn. I feel Erwin is in good hands with people like you helping in his care.


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Marsha,
> 
> 
> What makes you think he is sick?
> ...



He's definitely not sick, Phil. He's amazing. He gets on my hand & runs & flaps his wings at the same time up my arm like a little blur. He's so funny & curious with the way he tilts his head to look at us. 

He was sick at first. He was laying on his side & his breathing was labored. He didn't chirp for 24 hours. 

No one I called would advise me because they said they weren't allowed to by law so I fed him toxic fishing worms. Until the 5 to 6 days in which he could be afflicted is over, I will be very worried. 

And I gave him drops of water, too, which could have harmed him as I learned after reading for 3 days. I was shocked to learn he could have gotten aspirated & ended up with pneumonia. Your version of what could have happened is horrid & I would have had a heart attack if that had happened, I'm almost sure.

I'm very glad to know I don't have to worry about pneumonia, now, so thanks for telling me. 

The air sacs & bacteria that could be associated still worry me so I'm hoping the antibiotics take care of that if it's a problem. 

I didn't think the antibiotics would help if he got parasites. I just hope he dodges that one & if there's anything I can do to have him checked or anything else, please let me know. 3 or 4 more days & I can stop worrying as he'll be out of danger by then. 

I will post more pictures of Erwin. My friend will be back soon with his camera. I don't know how to upload pictures yet but plan to learn. 

I'll post his poops, too. They are still in the sac & look very good except they don't trail off in a thread like stream as I saw in the pictures. They are more rounded as a perfect oval. Does that sound like it could be a problem, Phil? I sure hope not. 

Thank you so much for telling me about the bread balls. I'll do just that. The information you just sent & the diet were very appreciated. I am learning a lot & thank you from the bottom of my heart. 

Yes. My old vet is not up to par at all. He needs to retire.

Love, 
Marsha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Marsha,


Air Sac 'balooning' would tend to be from a really bad, hard fall onto a hard surface.

There is no associaiton between Bacteria, and, Balooned Air Sacs.


He was probably feeling crappy when you found him from a bad fall, and, from dehydration.


What I was trying to say about them aspirating Water or Liquids, is that a mis-hap will tend to be fatal long before the Bird would be able to get a Pnuemonia from it...it would be fatal within seconds, minutes or sometimes an hour or two of the Bird gasping and thrashing and going into seizures INSTANLTY upon getting Liquid into their Trachia, so please remember, no Liquids of any kind into the mouths or Beaks for any of the Species of Babys or youngsters who's Parents do not give them Liquids.

These kinds of Babys in Nature, get their hydration from the foods their parents feed them, and, their reflexes and Trachial reflexes and so on are not adapted or built to handle liquids.


BlackBerries or Blueberries with the Skin, and some other fruits can make purple poops...Beets can make poops which seem to have frank blood permiating, etc...

Please skip the Tomatos though, or unless someone can positively say it is safe, I would not risk it...there are so many entirely excellent other foods to choose from, there is no point in using ones which could make troubles.

Cilantro torn into really tiny bits, is a good food for them also...as is using a small Saucer for chow times, and, making a little pile of Chlorella, some pre-soaked and cut into tiny bites Gogi-Berries, and a dab of fresh Olive Oil all seperate on different parts of the Saucer, where, one dabs the bite of food into the Olive Oil smear area, dabs it in to the powdered Chlorella, and, then pops it way back in to their little wide open Gullet for them to swallow.

Chlorella is a green Powder which has lots of Chlorophyl in it. Any Health Food Store and many have it in bulk where you can buy an ounce or two.

These Babys ( well, probably all or any Baby Birds ) either need Chlorophyl or will benifit from it regardless...it also plays a role in developing good strong Bones and Muscles.

Also very good, the Spines and Skin ( tiny bites of course ) 2-to-1 with the flesh, from Canned, Two Layer, Water Pack Sardines. 


I know everyone always says use dry dog or dry cat food and soak it and so on, but I never have and all the Babys I raised did splendidly.

Most dry dog or cat foods is rancid, full of rancid fat which wil interfere with vitamin assimilations, toxic materials form the sources of the protean meal, and made from tumors and cancers and dead zoo animals and road kills and the worst garbage of the slaughterhouses, as low as say 'Hot Dogs', cooked into oblivian, ground into a fine paste, formed into whatever shapes, fake industrial nutrients added for the label brag, and, it is horrible stuff no matter what sell job the packaging has on it.

It is a horrible sopurce of 'protean' and lots of the base protean material comes form over seas anymore and is very suspect, even WORSE than the horrible garbage it used to be when produced domestically.

At least any Deep Ocean FIsh, such as Sardines, are overall quite wholesome, and, feeding the soft Spines and the Skin is very Nutritious for the omnivore Bird Baby/youngster ( Two Layer is best since the Sardines are much smaller than other arranges, thus having twice as much skin, and, smaller more tender Vertebre ).

Bugs or Insects are both Protean and Chlorophyl and possibly Sugars from Plant sourses.

So, Fish, Chlorella, and, ripe Fruits work out to about a perfect Homologue or parallel for all important nutrients/minerals.



Any long tiny Rib Bones found in the Sardines ( I never have found any in the Two Layer ), simply discard and do not feed those of course.


Ripe Cherries are excellent, as is ripe Pear...as are Goji Berries ( pre-soaked to be as full of moisture as possible ).



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> There is no associaiton between Bacteria, and, Balooned Air Sacs.


Phil, I mentioned the association with bacteria from a post I came across here on PT, while looking for a photo for Marsha of a ruptured air sac, from another member who's vet said bacteria can be a cause of this happening, although I am much more inclined to think of an injury causing this than infection.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=374375&postcount=15

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Karyn, Marsha, anyone else, 



Oh...well hmmmmm...okay, I understand the concern now and reason for the Antibiotics.

I wish we had something in the way of substantiation and expansion for detail and reason on that particular attribution of cause, ( for Ballooning Air Sacs in Baby Birds, ) other than that a Vet was said to have said so.

I have never heard of this, and, none of the Babys I have had in who had Balooning Air Sacs, got any meds for the condition, and I do not recall ever loosing one who had the condition, nor any who did not resolve the condition perfectly on their own, and, to grow up splendidly.

Babys or youngsters who ssurvive bad falls from high Nests can of course be a miote subdued for days or a week or more from the injuries internal and external, form the Fall itself, without there being per-se any Bacterial component at play.


Just to try thinking about this...

I do not know how a Baby who is otherwise vital and energetic and has a good appetite and who has survived a terrible fall some days or a week prior, would have a Bacterial issue effecting the 'valves' of their Respiratory system, where, the only symptom would be the 'Balooning' Air Sacs.


Can anyone contact that Vet and find out whether he could say WHAT Bacteria is supposed to do this? And, how it can do this without effecting anything else with the Bird's Respiratory System?

And, also, exactly how he came to profess/attribute that 'reason' for the Balooning Air Sac condition, while omitting entirely how a fall with a hard impact, can do it?

Was it based on attributions made in a Necropsy? Or? How did he distinguish the supposed Bacterial cause, from a bad fall being, in effect, the cause?

Does the Vet in question even know that a fall and a hard impact can do it?


Well, once doubt and worry get sewn into the Mind, I guess one has to abide by that, and, administer the Antibiotics...otherwise one would feel one is not doing the best for the Bird.



I just have to say, that this attribution seems to me to be doubtful or based on a misconstruence.


It would be nice if we could find more info about it and to be better able to judge it.

How did the Vet distinguish a Bacterial 'Balooned' Air Sac condition, from one which was caused by the hard impact of a high fall?


...or did he? ( Distinguish...)


Etc...



Love,


Phil
Lv


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

Dobato said:


> Phil, I mentioned the association with bacteria from a post I came across here on PT, while looking for a photo for Marsha of a ruptured air sac, from another member who's vet said bacteria can be a cause of this happening, although I am much more inclined to think of an injury causing this than infection.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=374375&postcount=15
> 
> Karyn


Hi Karyn & Phil. Catching up here after being unable to read here for a couple days because of the outage.

I wasn't taking chances so I had to go with antibiotics & you really helped me feel confident, Karen. Even though I normally do things for my family more on the natural ways opposed to putting man made medicines or chemicals in our bodies, so that included Erwin, I thought it better to be safe than sorry.

He's doing so well I decided to stop them as of this day to be on the safe side, too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Marsha, 


The anti-biotics are completely fine for the Bird to be on for a while...when in doubt, best to use them just to be sure.

So, have no worries about the anti-Biotics themselves in any way taking anything away from the Bird, their system will not have been bothered by them in any way, all is well there.


So, how are the Bird's Air Sacs presently?


How are the poops?


Update images?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

The air sacs are gone. 

The poops are no longer in sacs & are smaller & kind of watery so I have been giving him less fruit & more dog food. Cesar dog food. Should I switch to cat food as I hear it's more nutritious? 

I'm still waiting for my friend to come take pictures & he should be here by tomorrow. 

And how important are insects? My Granddaughter isn't always here to catch them, mostly ants, so I worry he may need more insects to keep him healthy. 

The vitamins say 2 drops in a teaspoon of water so I soak his food in that in the morning. Is that okay? 

I think he's a boy because I read they chirp a lot & girls don't. His feathers are changing. They are getting white & very fluffy all around his bottom half. He's not much bigger than a half dollar & hasn't gotten much bigger than when we rescued him. 

I don't know if I told you but we held him to a screen where insects gathered & he tries to get them with his tongue. He had a leg hanging out of his mouth so he's getting better at it. He actually takes the tiny strips of dog food off my finger with his tongue, sometimes, too. 

I am very worried about his wanting to be free. He stares out the window & I think he's sad. Should we set him free, I wonder? Will he know how to get food? I know they only live a short time outdoors but if he'd be happy, I would set him free. 

He has his own room & we are six humans who visit him often there & take his cage to other parts of the house & outdoors for variety. He flies high, now, & his room has a ceiling fan he has just accomplished reaching. 

I don't want to give him up but have to do the right thing. 

Thanks, Phil, for all your help. 

Love, 
Marsha McClelland
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Residing in Mogadore so I can take better care of Erwin. Too hard to commute with my 2 dogs & two other birds. My place is too small & my other animals would get jealous if they saw me care for Erwin. I lost a bird that way when I hand fed baby Cockatiels someone gave me, where the parents were picking at their feathers & making them bleed, which started my breeding them. My original Cockatiel starved himself & I hadn't noticed until it was too late. I loved that bird & never saw one smarter or friendlier. He'd jump down to watch me feed the babies so I fed him a little, too. I didn't notice he wasn't eating his other food & will never make that same mistake, again. 
330-703-0238


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

He needs sources of Chlrophyl.

The Va;lue of smal INsects lay chiefly in the contents of their INtestines, which tends to be about Chlrophyl.

Lacking fresh live and appropriate kinds of INsects to feed, one does well to simply augment the diet with viable sources of Chlorophyl directly.

Fresh Cilntro torn into TINY bits, Chlorella ( any Health Food Store )...can procide some.

And, he needs Protean of course, and all of the dry dog or cat foods are going to be made from tumors and decaying rotting carcases of downer and diseased animals and road kill and so on and are full of pesticide and drug toxins and are totally unwholesome and fairly toxic to a Bird's system, and are made from horrible ingredients and sold with fake deceptive labelling.


Small Berries which are high in antioxidents are good, for which Goji Berries ( any Health Food Store ) are about perfect...one cuts them into tiny bites, pre-soaks them, and, feed them to the Bird.

Small Saucer - put a little fresh new Bottle Olive Oil on one area, put some powdered Chlorella in another...have a little bunch of prepared torn into tiny bits of fresh Cilantro...have some two layer, water pack, canned Sardines in another spot, favoring the skins and Spine Vertabre...some fresh ripe Cherries or Apple or Apricot cut into teeeny bits.

Take a bit of food, dab it into the Olive Oil, dab that into the Chlorella, and pop it into their Gullet when they gape.

He will know how to hunt Bugs and manage fine with that once he is old enough and flying well and so on.


They are normally a little bored or wistful at times at this age no matter their situation, since they are dependent on their parents for being fed, and, can not fly yet.

So they sit and watch and day dream or find things to be entertained with.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes, you did explain it already & I did take much of your dietary advise. But being in the country & not able to leave the bird alone for very long as my Granddaughter is not always here to help feed him, I had to make due as the distance to the health food store is far away. He has been doing so wel, anyway,l & I don't use dry dog food. I figured he still needed protein as I didn't see a source mentioned by you or misunderstood so I wondered if there would be a high grade cat food, acceptable, because I did hear that is more nutritious. I was buying the moist dog food that had a higher rating than any of the other brands & even the Cesar brand has lower grade which I wouldn't give to my dogs. I thought that would be okay for now & was asking for a better protein source. So if I can't use that Cesar & there's no good grade cat food, where can I get his protein from?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lol...

Just about all the rehabbres use dry god or cat foods, and, it appears to work alright.

Just saying that in my opinion, it is not ideal or even wholesome at all, nor as good as more wholesome and less highly 'processed' or more ingenuous sources of protean.

Two-Layer ( small tradtional Can )Sardines/Snipes/Smelts/etc are high protean, and being very small, have the Skins and Spines present, and, are about like a Bug would be actually, but, lack fresh Chlorophyl and or Fruit Sugars anr related which a Bug/Insect intestines would have ( even as all or any dog or cat foods would totally lack ) so...if one wishes to do it well, one needs to get some fresh Cilantro ( Any Grocery Store should have it in the produce section ) and, if possible, some Chlorella also...and also to feed appropriate Fruits/Berries.

Sparrows get their Protean from live Insects/Bugs, Grains/Seeds of Plants, and, from various Plant parts, tender Buds or shoots or particular tender Leaves and Fruits or obscure and small fruiting Bodies, Berries and so on.


Deep Ocean provenance Fish also are valuable sources of Omega 3 Fatty Acids which are very good for just about any sort of Bird, as are the various Berries which are natural foods high in Antioxidents, such as Goji Berries or Sour or Dark Cherries ( NON SULFITE! of course ) other Berries even if dried and re-hydrated are very good for them, and, when combined with the Chlorophyl, would probably resemble very well, some of the important Nutrients found in the intestines of plant and fruit eating Insects also.

There is quite a bit of protean in small Berries, Cilantro, small Grains or Seeds of appropriate kinds, and so on for that matter...and of course a great deal more protean in the Canned Water Pack Sardines.

It is not as if protean is absent in non-animal-flesh or absent in Botanical derived foods...it is merely more concentrated in some foods than in others.


None of the 'ratings' include important facts when it comes to cat or dog food.

It is all a sell game, a jive, a big BS of faking garbage-materials with additives to patronize the laws which regulate what a label can state, with about zero oversight or testing by anyone to even see IF the product equates to the merely superficial attributes a label may state.

There may be or are some exceptions, and, these WILL be actual identifiable real Foods, and, not stuff made by extruding a 'paste' made out of horrible refuse and decaying carcases and so on which have been cooked into oblivian.

Hence, my interest to only use or recommend foods which are real, natural, wholesome, appropriate for the Species, and honest.


Trying to catch Bugs and Insects to feed a Baby or Youngster Song Bird is also dangerous, because we do not know if we have got a wrong one or a wrong kind, or an okay kind who has been eating TOxic Plant saps or other, or who has bene sprayed with a pestacide and hence was a little easier TO catch, and we could sicken or kill a Baby or Youngster Song Bird if we goof in that way.

Crickets will tend to be safe and excellent...if one can find them...and if they are vigorous and lively and vivid.

But, Canned Sardines are so easy, so nutritious, and the Babys like them, and you can get them anywhere and everywhere on Earth where Groceries are sold, so, that is my choice for the main protean source.


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

*Thanks Phil*

Erwin loved his diet & the sardines made me feel that he's was getting well nutritioned in a way much better than the dog food was doing. I have followed your advise & Erwin has been doing well thanks to all that advise. He seemed to really love the cherries, especially. There's a problem I'm soon to share with everyone but right now I have to tend to Erwin.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Glad to hear he is doing well and likes the chow..!


I will check back off and on for your next post.


Best wishes!

Phil
Lv

P.S.

The Site's Time Stamps are screwes up lately - my Post here is being edited at 10:50 PM, US Pacific Time.
Yet the Time Stamp assigned to it is 5:51...


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Our African grey had a ruptured air sac or crop sac we could see food around his neck , the breeder said it would most likely heal own its own and it did . Ya'll that give advice are awesome , are some of you vets ?


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## Marsha McClelland (Jun 4, 2011)

*I'm thankful for this site*

I agree Kathy. This site is awesome. I'm blessed to have found this place, especially, Phil & Karyn. I'm very busy with Erwin & my other birds & dogs, my Grandchildren & other adult children & gardening but sometime today I plan to make another post concerning Erwin & need some important advise. I was away at my home all week & didn't have a computer there to keep all of you updated on Erwin but should be here in the country a while longer, maybe all week. I wasn't able to get any new pictures of Erwin, Phil, but if my friend, actually, he's my son's best friend, if he comes over I'll get him to take more pictures.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

flowercard said:


> Hi,
> 
> I saved a baby robin from being attacked from a crow, I fixed up the head wound; but now it has some sort of transparent air sack near it's left leg. Please tell me what to do, the wild life rescue center cannot be bothered by my call and won't take the bird.
> 
> Please give me some help!!


Flowercard, thanks for trying to help this little one out.

Here are a couple of links on feeding and care:

Marsha, here are a couple of links that you may find useful:

http://www.goosemoose.com/rfc/index....ic=8199.5;wap2

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/robin/FAQBabies.html

The photos you posted is had to make out, so if you could pull back some so more/all of the bird is in the photos, plus work on getting it a bit more focused, this would be good. I am going to ask a Moderator to more you post to its own thread in this section of the forum.

Karyn


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## BirdieMama513 (Jul 11, 2011)

*Karyn*

You said you had the MOD move them.... but where were they moved to???


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=54417


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## GingerPigeon (May 22, 2011)

Yes Karin, I would love to know where your clinic is located. Maybe I live close enough to bring Ginger to you if she gets sick.


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## Crhuff55 (Jun 24, 2011)

You need to take the bird to the vet. They will do what is best for the bird.you may not be feeding it the right diet. I have been a licensed bird rehabber on Virginia for twenty years. You have to have a state and federal permit to keep any migratory bird. You cannot just buy a license. Passerines are entirely different from pigeons as far as care. Please surrender this bird to the vet. It is better for the bird to be assessed by a vet than to go on as you are. I know this sounds harsh but it is the reality. Christie Huffman


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Christie...I house sparrows and starlings are not protected. They are a non native species. It sounds like you are an exception...many licensed rehab facilities won't even accept them or if they do, they euthanize them.


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## Lexygurl (Jun 28, 2007)

I once had a baby scrub jay who had a ruptured air sac. I had my father hold the little guy in his hands while I took a syringe and poked into the bubble. I carefully avoided all the veins. When the tip of the needle was just under the skin, I drew the air out. I was instructed to repeat this if the air came back, but it never did. And through the whole process the bird didn't even seem to notice. It was very successful.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if I duplicate something already posted. I can contribute to food choices. I raise all my babies on Hill's Prescription Diet 'a/d' (must buy from a vet clinic only - not in pet stores), Also, 'small bite puppy chow' - I prefer Eukanuba or Science Diet. I soak it in hot water until it 'puffs'.
'Nekton' (you can google it) has an excellent line of food and vitamins for insect eating birds. My Robin 'Baby' lived for 13 years on Eukanuba Small Bite puppy chow


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

BirdieMama513 said:


> You said you had the MOD move them.... but where were they moved to???


BM513, I am sorry, if this was a bit confusing for you, but I see you found "your" thread from the link John posted, this way people will not get confused about what bird is being discussed when you have your own.



GingerPigeon said:


> Yes Karin, I would love to know where your clinic is located. Maybe I live close enough to bring Ginger to you if she gets sick.


Gingerpigeon, if this is directed towards me, I am not too sure what you mean, as I don't have a clinic, I am just one of the regulars here at Pigeon-Talk who helps out where we can .

Karyn


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## GingerPigeon (May 22, 2011)

Sorry Karyn I spelled your name wrong. I thought you were a vet because you write the way some of the vets I've taken my cats to talk. I understand most of what they tell me but some times I tease them and ask they speak in english.


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## Tiff (Oct 16, 2010)

Hi Marsha,
Please hang in there with Erwin whatever he is. I did rehab years ago and have raised both sparrows (English or house and other varieties) and a starling or two. Very grateful to have known both species. I must say I cannot see enough from your pictures to tell for certain what he is and that is a worry. If it is a sparrow one of the things we used (that was great) was Kaytee Exact baby bird formula. I usually mixed per package direction and mixed to consistency of baby food stirred. I gave it to them with an eye dropper careful not to get in their crop. I also supplemented with really small mealworms. We did not have probs with the worms but I am in a different part of the country than you are and the worms sold here in pet stores are usually for pet animals so maybe that matters. I never saw the air sacs issue in spite of raising many babies but again different part of the country so the air and weather may be a factor. Good luck with him and on behalf of bird lovers everywhere thanks for taking care of him!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Dobato said:


> ...I am just one of the regulars here at Pigeon-Talk...


I'm regular, too!

(Raisin Bran is very good for you)



Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> I'm regular, too!
> 
> (Raisin Bran is very good for you)
> 
> ...


Pidgey, I suspect you may be one of the most regular people here .

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

GingerPigeon said:


> Sorry Karyn I spelled your name wrong. I thought you were a vet because you write the way some of the vets I've taken my cats to talk. I understand most of what they tell me but some times I tease them and ask they speak in english.


GingerPigeon, no worries, nothing to be sorry about. If Ginger is ever feeling under the weather, we have some pretty good people here who may be able to help you get her back on track .

Karyn


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## BirdieMama513 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if I duplicate something already posted. I can contribute to food choices. I raise all my babies on Hill's Prescription Diet 'a/d' (must buy from a vet clinic only - not in pet stores), Also, 'small bite puppy chow' - I prefer Eukanuba or Science Diet. I soak it in hot water until it 'puffs'.
> 'Nekton' (you can google it) has an excellent line of food and vitamins for insect eating birds. My Robin 'Baby' lived for 13 years on Eukanuba Small Bite puppy chow


 I googled Nekton and did not see a specific food listed for "bug eaters"  but I can get the Eukanuba  do you need to wet it every day? My babies are house sparrows, and I have been feeding them the baby bird formula ..... was told that finch food would be good for them when weaned..... I also read somewhere that House Sparrows only eat bugs as babies...... I want to make sure they have the absolute best and appropriate diet I love these little guys


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

BirdieMama513 said:


> I googled Nekton and did not see a specific food listed for "bug eaters"  but I can get the Eukanuba  *do you need to wet it every day? *My babies are house sparrows, and I have been feeding them the baby bird formula ..... was told that finch food would be good for them when weaned..... I also read somewhere that House Sparrows only eat bugs as babies...... I want to make sure they have the absolute best and appropriate diet I love these little guys




Don't understand what you mean by "DO YOU HAVE TO WET IT EVERY DAY?". 
You would only mix up enough to feed to them for a couple of days at a time, then you would make more. Just buy a good dry cat food, and mix half a cup of water to 1l2 cup of dry cat food. Some people add a few drops of vitamins in when they add the water, and mix it in. Any thing left between feedings should be refrigerated. To warm it up, put a smaller container into a larger container to which you have added hot water. Stir the cat food you are heating to warm all through. You will have to change the water when it gets cool. I would only warm up enough for the one feeding at a time.

As was mention, you can also supplement with mealworms. Most pet stores sell them.


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## BirdieMama513 (Jul 11, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Don't understand what you mean by "DO YOU HAVE TO WET IT EVERY DAY?".
> You would only mix up enough to feed to them for a couple of days at a time, then you would make more. Just buy a good dry cat food, and mix half a cup of water to 1l2 cup of dry cat food. Some people add a few drops of vitamins in when they add the water, and mix it in. Any thing left between feedings should be refrigerated. To warm it up, put a smaller container into a larger container to which you have added hot water. Stir the cat food you are heating to warm all through. You will have to change the water when it gets cool. I would only warm up enough for the one feeding at a time.
> 
> As was mention, you can also supplement with mealworms. Most pet stores sell them.


sorry for the confusion.... the original post I quoted I just dont seem to see in here anymore >.< do I need to wet it everyday referred to MsFreebird as to feeding weaned birdies Eukanuba dog food  as for now I am feeding them the cat food soaked in water and added hardboiled egg and applesauce ...... Msfreebird posted about a site that sells bird food for after theyre weaned and also mentioned the Eukanuba...... I just wasnt sure it I needed to soak it everyday or if it was dry and crushed if theyd eat it that way..... sorry for the confusion


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

BirdieMama513 said:


> sorry for the confusion.... the original post I quoted I just dont seem to see in here anymore >.< do I need to wet it everyday referred to MsFreebird as to feeding weaned birdies Eukanuba dog food  as for now I am feeding them the cat food soaked in water and added hardboiled egg and applesauce ...... Msfreebird posted about a site that sells bird food for after theyre weaned and also mentioned the Eukanuba...... I just wasnt sure it I needed to soak it everyday or if it was dry and crushed if theyd eat it that way..... sorry for the confusion


This is what I used for my Robin-
http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=6991
I was told that cat food is not good for raising birds- too high in protein.
Dog food doesn't have enough protein.........Puppy food is just about right in protein. Or a 'recovery' food like 'Prescription diet (Hill's) a/d'
I soak just what I need for the day.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any 'dry' Foods should be soaked prior to feeding.

This is how these Species of youngsters get their Hydration.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> This is what I used for my Robin-
> http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=6991
> I was told that cat food is not good for raising birds- too high in protein.
> Dog food doesn't have enough protein.........Puppy food is just about right in protein. Or a 'recovery' food like 'Prescription diet (Hill's) a/d'
> I soak just what I need for the day.



What is the amount of protein in that food Waynette?


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