# Suspecting a baby is sick



## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Hey everyone i have a 3 week oldish squab that might be sick. My sister said it pooped on her and it was yellowish and smelled really bad. When i see the bird it looks like its breathing heavily somewhat but that might be because its young? il see if i can get a video of it.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Heres the video


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sounds like I could be canker. Do you have the meds to treat the baby?

Is the baby being fed by its parents or is it one you are feeding with a formula?
Have you looked in its mouth for any yellowish blotches indicating canker?
What about the parents, have you looked in their mouths?

Looks like you got your homework cut out for you before you make the video.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Charis said:


> Sounds like I could be canker. Do you have the meds to treat the baby?
> 
> Is the baby being fed by its parents or is it one you are feeding with a formula?
> Have you looked in its mouth for any yellowish blotches indicating canker?
> ...


I have meds for canker ( Spartrix)

The baby can eat and drink by itself, but the mother might be feeding it but i havent seen her do so.

My dad looked inside its mouth and just said its dry

Parents show no sign of canker.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It doesn't look good and is definitely having a hard time breathing.
I noticed a fair amount of poop around it and as the poop dries, it becomes airborne which you and your birds breath and that old dried poop can cause problems. As best you can, it makes a huge difference to the birds health if you do a daily clean-up. For yourself, always wear a mask to protect yourself.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Clint, you need to take this baby up right now. It appears very sick to me and if something isn't done soon, it will die. When we're facing something like this, I immediately start with an antibiotic like Baytril along with Nystatin. You need to get it on a heating pad and a soft, donut shaped bed so it can rest more comfortably. 

And, Clint, I really hate to say this but you need to get in your loft and give it a good cleaning.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Clint, you need to take this baby up right now. It appears very sick to me and if something isn't done soon, it will die. When we're facing something like this, I immediately start with an antibiotic like Baytril along with Nystatin. You need to get it on a heating pad and a soft, donut shaped bed so it can rest more comfortably.
> 
> And, Clint, I really hate to say this but you need to get in your loft and give it a good cleaning.


i clean that specific loft every 2-3 days, il start cleaning it more often.
My dad gave it i think half a tablet of spartrix.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i took a new video


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Clint, are you going to take her in your house? Do you have any antibiotics? Part of her problem may be that she is not being fed enough but I would be wary of trying to feed her anything right now. Can you get any fluids down her? Or, take her to a vet for some tests?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Clint, I just looked at your second video and this baby is in bad shape if you don't do something soon. It breaks my heart.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do what Maggie says, Clint. I don't think Spartrix one time will take care of the problem.
In addition to what Maggie has recommend, I think you should treat all your Pigeons for canker.
Your birds also need some kind of nesting material.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You need to isolate this youngster and keep it warm on heating pad, out of noise, traffic, air drafts and out of too much light.

Make sure the bird is getting the correct dose of spartrix, and you probably should also get the flagyl if you don't have it.Please make sure the baby is getting enough to eat and drink.

You need to flock treat also.

You asked for help, you got it, please follow it.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i moved the bird to a different cage, it seems its having alitle hard time keeping its balance


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

The only med i have is spartrix, i dont have a heating pad either  and no vets that handle pigeons here.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Clint, in order for us to help you, you gotta give us more information. Personally, I don't think this is canker but possibly a respiratory problem.

When you say you moved it to another cage - what does that mean? Can you list any medicines you have?

Is this one of your IHF babies? I know how much you care for them and know you want this baby to survive but c'mon, give us a bit more info instead of one liners.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

I put the baby in a cage and brought it in my house in a dark room. The only med i have is spartrix and there are not vets around. i dont know what else to say if theres something missing please ask. and yes its one of my ihf babies.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

oh i just remembered about 5 days ago he\she was walking and triped from a fall of 4-5 inches. This might account for its unbalance maybe because he doesnt do much with the leg. but its not broken and the next day he was walking fine again. 

right now hes in a dark\ quiet room and when i listen i cant hear him breathing, which is a good thing right?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You are going to need to feed the baby and probably small amounts at a time. If it does have canker in its crop, it might not tolerate a lot of food right now. How does its crop feel. Is there food in it? 
The baby needs to be kept warm with a heating pad set on low. It also needs a towel underneath it and not just a bare metal cage. Not even newspaper is enough. Something soft.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Actually, if you are hearing any rasping sound or gurgling or breathing, then perhaps this maybe a respiratory infection, which requires other medication.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Clint, you know we have many members in CA. I'm not sure where you are but do you know any members near by or even other pigeon breeders that you could get medicine from?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Actually, if you are hearing any rasping sound or gurgling or breathing, then perhaps this maybe a respiratory infection, which requires other medication.


i dont hear any of that, just its feathers moving. It does have food in its crop.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i asked them before they said whenever their bird gets sick they give it a pill and it gets better. they dont have a range of meds just one "miracle pill" =\. I dont know the name off hand but its an antibiotic. i think i still may have one of the pills.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

See if you can find out what kind of pill this is. I'm in and out but I promise to keep checking in because you know I want this baby to pull through.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Actually we dont have the pill , we threw it out because it was old already.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> Actually we dont have the pill , we threw it out because it was old already.



Can you get another one?
You have to treat this bird asap.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Can you contact these people you got the pill from and find out what it is and if they'll give you some more?

Also, I doubt that a 4-5 inch fall would have caused this.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

My dad said that the spartrix is better than their medicine because its just an antibiotic


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Spartrix treats canker. You need an antibiotic IMO.

I don't know any thing else to advise you.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Im trying everything i can. I have no car atm and i cant get in contact with any of the other fanciers.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I just PM'ed you the names and phone #'s of two AU members that are near you. Also, here is the info for a good avian vet in Modesto:

Veterinary Medical Associates: Kahler J S 

204 W Granger Ave
Modesto, CA 95350

(209) 527-5855 

I believe this is the vet that our member, Marian Isaac, uses, and if so, then s/he is a very good avian vet.

I hope you can get some help ASAP for your little one.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Clint, 
This is a critical situation as it is likely there is more going on with your bird than canker. Likely your other birds are ill as well. When birds are sick, they pretend to be ok for as long as they can. It is a defense against natural predators. In the wild, a sick bird is easy pickings. When you can tell a bird is sick, IT IS REALLY, REALLY SICK.
If you are going to keep Pigeons you must be prepared with the basic medicines and first aid. It is magical thinking that your birds will never need them. We all need to be prepared.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Charis said:


> Clint,
> This is a critical situation as it is likely there is more going on with your bird than canker. Likely your other birds are ill as well. When birds are sick, they pretend to be ok for as long as they can. It is a defense against natural predators. In the wild, a sick bird is easy pickings. When you can tell a bird is sick, IT IS REALLY, REALLY SICK.
> If you are going to keep Pigeons you must be prepared with the basic medicines and first aid. It is magical thinking that your birds will never need them. We all need to be prepared.


I didnt know they did that , thanks for the info


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What I'm waiting to hear is, what are you going to do about all your new information?
I really want your baby to get well and your other pigeons to be ok too.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Charis said:


> What I'm waiting to hear is, what are you going to do about all your new information?
> I really want your baby to get well and your other pigeons to be ok too.


my other pigeons are great. this bird was isolated from all birds but its mother and father. both mother and father are ok also. i have to leave to go to a funeral right now but i will be back. Im going through a hard time right now and now this happens too. i took some pictures because it just pooped.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Put a towel underneath the baby, Not a paper towel. It's sick and the floor of the cage is slippery and cold.
Remember what I told you about birds not acting sick when they are?
I'm sorry you are going through a hard time now but its about to get worse if all your birds are sick.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's some pretty nasty yellow urates. And the respiration rate's running around 60. Add the two up and you've probably got a bacterial infection that's causing anemia BUT there can also be inflammation in the lungs as well. Since there are a few different things that will do this, it's a little bit of shooting blind. There are a couple of treatment options that you could try, either one of which may not do any good depending on what it is. If it's one kind of problem, then a Tetracycline which you can get at a feed store will work. If it's the other type of problem, then you'd want to go with Baytril. Metronidazole would be supportive, especially if canker is involved.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You probably better start a chart on the respiration rate every couple of hours or so. That doesn't help the bird, it just helps to give those reading the thread more info about the clinical picture.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> That's some pretty nasty yellow urates. And the respiration rate's running around 60. Add the two up and you've probably got a bacterial infection that's causing anemia BUT there can also be inflammation in the lungs as well. Since there are a few different things that will do this, it's a little bit of shooting blind. There are a couple of treatment options that you could try, either one of which may not do any good depending on what it is. If it's one kind of problem, then a Tetracycline which you can get at a feed store will work. If it's the other type of problem, then you'd want to go with Baytril. Metronidazole would be supportive, especially if canker is involved.
> 
> Pidgey


Spartrix can be substituted for baytril? il see if i can get a ride to the feed store i bought the spartrix from and see if they have tetracycline.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> The only med i have is spartrix, *i dont have a heating pad either*  and no vets that handle pigeons here.


You can place the baby & his isolation cage under a low wattage lamp. This will work for supplement heat.

Cindy


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

AZWhitefeather said:


> You can place the baby & his isolation cage under a low wattage lamp. This will work for supplement heat.
> 
> Cindy


its really hot here inside the house already, its about 88 degrees does it really need the heating source?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Spartrix can be substituted for Metronidazole. Those are mostly used against diseases like canker and don't have near as much true antibacterial effect. Baytril (Enrofloxacin, Enrofloxan, Enroxil, and many other names but all the same medicine) is the veterinary version of our Ciprofloxacin, which gets a lot of different bacteria including the ones responsible for Paratyphoid which this might be. The Tetracyclines (Tetracycline, Oxytetracycline, Doxycycline and a few others which are slightly different medicines; they go under several different trade names like Aureomycin, Terramycin, etc.) actually target some different bacterial families than Baytril although there is some overlap. Without some tests that you may or may not be able to get done at a vet, there's not a lot of way to know which way to jump here. At least you can easily get one or another of the Tetracyclines at a feed store.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Be sure and post exactly what you got and all of the information on the package as soon as you get back if you manage to get some. Somebody here will try to hammer out a dosing strategy as soon as you have something in hand.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I would, by the way, give the bird Spartrix at this point, too.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i have given it spartrix in the morning


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chat with Flying_pidgy:

gabber200: I'm actually both of the other folks on here.

Flying_pidgy: hi

ah ok

gabber200 is now Pidgey

Pidgey: Two different machines at work.

Flying_pidgy: oooh

sorry about the phone thing 

Pidgey: Have you figured out how to take his respiration rate?

Flying_pidgy: hmm is it just see how many times it takes a breath in a minute?

Pidgey: That's right. Have you done it?

Flying_pidgy: il do it right now i just got home

brb

Sent at 07:48 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: Did you get any Tetracycline?

Flying_pidgy: not yet im waiting until my mom comes home so i can find the phone number of the shop

brb i have to find a stop watch or something

Pidgey: k

Sent at 07:50 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: You know, any kind of watch with a second-hand or even something digital will work...

Sent at 07:56 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: k

its i think 43

43 tiems i saw his chest move in a minute

Pidgey: Well, then that's 43. It looked faster on the video.

Flying_pidgy: is that good?

Pidgey: You see, it's possible that he's had an infection that's caused a temporary anemia...

...and his body has caught up and remade enough blood cells to do the job.

But that ain't the only possibility.

His respiration rate should be closer to 30.

Flying_pidgy: hmm

Pidgey: You can probably time one of the other ones about his age for comparison.l

Flying_pidgy: how much did you count?

Pidgey: More like 60.

Flying_pidgy: my dad said it looks alot better than it did this morning before he gave it spartrix

Pidgey: Assuming the video is at the true speed, of course.

Might be.

Could be canker although that's not the most normal presentation.

Flying_pidgy: Hes my only squab i have, and the last one i was breeding

Pidgey: What all else have you done for him like trying to rehydrate him and stuff like that?

Flying_pidgy: i put seeds infront of him before i left home i dont think he ate any but this morning his crop was full

Pidgey: Well, where there's eating, there's hope.

Flying_pidgy: and i put water in a spoon and put it up to its beak but it shook its head like it didnt want it

Pidgey: You never know if the bird's got an infection that he's actually managing to get over on his own.

So he hasn't had any water that you know of today?

Flying_pidgy: its leg is also hurting i think because he fell about 3 inches

when he tries to walk he flaps his wings to aid him

Pidgey: That's not enough to hurt their legs--they're far tougher than we are.

Flying_pidgy: other than the water my dad gave it in the morning it hasnt

Pidgey: How did and how much did you Dad give him?

Flying_pidgy: im going to go re check the mothers mouth to see if she has canker or something

he gave one tablet

Pidgey: The water.

Flying_pidgy: he put the tablet in his mouth but it didnt take it so he dissolved it 

let me ask brb

Sent at 08:06 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: he said one spoon and a half

Pidgey: What kind of spoon?

Sent at 08:10 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: eating spoon

Pidgey: That's not much water, then, especially in that heat.

Flying_pidgy: and also in the morning when it was breathing i could hear it breathing, but now i cant hear it

should he give it some water? 

Pidgey: To give you an idea what your conditions are like, pigeons will usually drink about 8% of their weight in water per day. Can you weigh the bird?

Flying_pidgy: i dont have a scale

Pidgey: Try to describe how much the bird weighs by comparison.

For instance, is this a homer?

Flying_pidgy: its a ihf

iranian high flyer

Pidgey: Like a Tippler?

Flying_pidgy: tumbler

Pidgey: So, the breed is more like the size of a feral pigeon than a big honkin' homer?

Sent at 08:14 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: yea

Pidgey: And how old is this squab?

Flying_pidgy: are they going to be more than 1 lb?

i have a scale that goes to 1b, its about 4-5 weeks old

Pidgey: How does he feel compared to a regular adult of his type? Usually, they're less than a pound.

Flying_pidgy: il try to weigh him

brb

Pidgey: Sure.

Sent at 08:17 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: its aroudn 4 ounces 

around*

4-5 ounces

Pidgey: One ounce is almost 30 grams (29.57) so that's 120 to 150 grams.

Flying_pidgy: yeah that wounds right from the scale

Pidgey: Just out of curiosity, do you have a measuring cup and something like a styrofoam cup or a paper cup?

Flying_pidgy: waht do u mean?

first is the 4 oucnes bad?

Pidgey: A measuring cup shows quantities on the side like ounces and such.

Well, hold your horses, we'll get to that.

Flying_pidgy: my mom has a cooking one 

Pidgey: What we want to try and do is verify that your scale works.

Flying_pidgy: and ya we have styrophome thing

ahh i see

wow ur smart lol 

i would have never thought of that

Pidgey: If you've got a paper or styrofoam cup that you can weigh first and then measure in four or five ounces, we can test your scale.

Four of five ounces of water, that is.

Flying_pidgy: k let me see brb

Sent at 08:23 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: ok back

the scale is off i think

Pidgey: What number did you get?

Flying_pidgy: i put 4 ounc in the mesuring cup and i put it in the paper cup and it showed almost 2ounces

and it says paper cup is weighing at nothing

Pidgey: Get precise.

Flying_pidgy: so the scale is half of what it is 

Pidgey: The paper cup won't weigh much.

About that and that's what I expected.

Put enough water in the cup to make the same weight that the bird weighed.

Then measure it.

Flying_pidgy: u mean put water in the cup to see how much it was on the scale?

so i put 4 ounces of water on the scale? and them pour it in the mesuring cup?

Pidgey: Put the paper cup on the scale...

Flying_pidgy: k

Pidgey: ...and then keep pouring water in until the indicator reads what it did when you weighed the squab.

Flying_pidgy: kk

brb

Pidgey: Then pour that water into your mom's measuring cup.

...and see as exactly as you can how much it is.

Sent at 08:32 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: its 7 ounces

Pidgey: Between 3/4's and one full cup?

Flying_pidgy: its right in the middle of 6 and 8 

i used the small dixie cups

Pidgey: Okay, then the bird actually weighs about 210 grams.

Flying_pidgy: it was two full cups next to each other

Pidgey: That works.

So, he's a little thin but it's not absolutely horrible news.

How prominent is the breastbone (keel)?

Flying_pidgy: ty for taking time out of your day to help me, i really apprechiate it

hmm

like how much it sticks out?

Pidgey: You're welcome. All a part of our friendly service with a smile at Pigeon-Talk.

Flying_pidgy: 

Pidgey: Yeah, how much it sticks out.

Flying_pidgy: brb 

Sent at 08:36 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: not very much i feel more food than bone

Pidgey: Down closer to between the legs. You're feeling too high.

Flying_pidgy: oh ok brb

Sent at 08:38 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: it sticks out

Pidgey: Kinda' figured it did. Can you pinch it and literally hold the bird by it?

Flying_pidgy: hes warm though

not very much

Pidgey: Well, we've got some reserve, anyhow.

Different question, how truly yellow do those urates really look?

Flying_pidgy: hmm

Pidgey: You see, that often means that the liver is involved and that can be any of many bacterial infections as well as canker.

Flying_pidgy: its like creamy yellow

Pidgey: Since you really don't have any other medications, you're going to hope it's canker but that's a scary proposition if it's not.

Flying_pidgy: yeah thats what my dad said too

two of my birds had canker before

this would be the first withought it

withoguht it being that

Pidgey: Usually, cankers have a particular normal presentation that depends on the species.

Sent at 08:44 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: That is, if they're the kind that cause yellow buttons inside the mouth then you usually see that. If they're the sneakier kind which tend to cause problems inside without causing the yellow cheesy buttons in the mouth, then you almost never see 'em

Sent at 08:46 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: I'm going to sign off--still at work and gotta' go home.

I'll post this conversation if it's alright with you.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i just talked with pidgy on gabbly. ty so much for the help and especially to help when your so busy at work. ty so much.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

shouldi give it water?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i put a teaspoon of water n a spoon and it seems he drank some of it


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, 8% of 210 grams would be 16.8 milliliters of water which is about one tablespoon or three teaspoons of water. You can check with your Mom for a set of measuring spoons to see how much we're talking about.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Should i give it water?\ food?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, yeah, I would. You could go into a little detail explaining how he is this morning... you know, respiration rate, perkiness, attitude...

Has this baby ever eaten on his own or is he still being fed by his parents? That is, would he know what solid food was if you put it in front of him? You might have already mentioned something about that but I'd have to go back through the whole thread looking...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, you did say it could eat and drink for itself. Sometimes, though, they go "anorectic" and quit eating because they don't feel like it and that's often the worst thing they can do. At such times, we usually have to carry them through it by either tube-feeding them or forcing them to eat some peas, corn, puppy chow or stuff like that. Not a lot, mind you, but a teaspoonful should suffice for awhile.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, yeah, I would. You could go into a little detail explaining how he is this morning... you know, respiration rate, perkiness, attitude...
> 
> Has this baby ever eaten on his own or is he still being fed by his parents? That is, would he know what solid food was if you put it in front of him? You might have already mentioned something about that but I'd have to go back through the whole thread looking...
> 
> Pidgey



today his respiration was around 41, i saw a poop that was not yelloy anymore but it looked normal colored compared to my other birds, he looks slightyly better not not so much. when i offered him water or shaked the water he shook its head meaning he didnt want any. He has been eating and drinking on his own. 

i have to go to work right now but il be back and il read what you guys say at work but i cant bring the little fella because theres alot of car exhaust and stuff and thats not good for him.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Clint, you need to feed him. He is separated from his parents who were feeding him and he probably doesn't know how to eat on his own yet.
You are going to need to be his dad until he gets better.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

he can eat on his own and drink


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Clint, If you need meds and can't find them in your community, maybe feralpigeon could send you some. It's worth a try to send feralpigeon a private message and ask.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> he can eat on his own and drink


Yeah, but is he? Give him a chance (to do it on his own) but don't let it go too long.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i left him food and water before i left to work ( which i am at right now )


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

For the water do i give it regular water or can i give it acv or garlic water?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Which medicine am i supposed to buy? does anyone know what disease it has?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Can it be?

Young Bird Sickness


Young bird disease has spread rapidly around the world in recent years, causing severe losses among young birds.

Pathogen:
This is a mixed infection, involving viruses and bacteria (especially E.coli and cocci, but also protozoa).
The pathogens are transmitted by air, dust and contact between birds, as well as via communal drinking water and feed.
Outbreaks of the disease are promoted by stress factors such as weaning, the introduction of strange birds into a loft, vaccination, heat (accelerated bacterial growth, water shortage), training of juveniles (basketing) and young pigeon flights.

Symptoms of the disease:
The disease can take two forms:

Sudden death not preceded by any perceptible signs of illness:
A typical scenario sees young pigeons released from the loft for their daily training (on a hot summer's day, perhaps), whereupon they fly around for an hour and then return to the loft. They land on the roof or on the alighting ledge, do not respond to the breeder's attempts to entice them into the loft, and die within the space of a few hours. 

Death preceded by visible signs of illness:
During the period between the onset of symptoms and death (lasting from 3 days to 1 week), the following symptoms are observed: lack of activity, puffed-up plumage, refusal of feed, swelling of the crop, weight loss, greenish-yellow faeces in puddles, vomiting.

Recognition of the disease:
Owing to the numerous pathogens involved in this disease, it is only possible to make a tentative diagnosis.

Similar conditions:
E.coli infection, hexamitiasis.

Treatment:
There is no vaccine against young pigeon disease that could be used to prevent infection. However, sick pigeons can be treated with adenosan. And timely use of adenosan may also prevent an outbreak of the disease in birds suspected of infection. 

1. adenosan is used: 
For at least 7 days at the first symptoms of young pigeon disease.
If the disease is only recognised at a later stage, it is additionally necessary to use a chemotherapeutic agent with antibiotic activity (preferably furazolidon+) in order to contain the bacterial infection.The active ingredient furazolidone has been shown to possess specific efficacy against E.coli infections in the gut. 

2. adenosan is used in the following situations, where there is reason to fear infection as a result of contact with other young pigeons: 
For a 7-day period when introducing new youngsters to the flock. 
During the flying season, for 3 days after flights. 

3. adenosan is used when a disease outbreak is likely as a result of a challenge to the immune system: 
In connection with vaccinations (paramyxovirus infection, Salmonella, pigeon pox) - for 3 days before immunisation and 4 days thereafter. 

4. adenosan is used where a change in gut flora predisposes birds to a disease outbreak. 
When treating birds for trichomonads, we recommend parallel administration of adenosan over a period, beginning 3 days prior to treatment.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i just looked inside its mouth with my dad and it Seems like it DOES have yellow stuff in its throat and tongue area. Im not sure if its food that he tried to vomit out or canker. I think there was also some white in there too ( which may be because the canker is curing from the spartrix i gave it. when i go home from work il try to take a picture . 

also , it does not use its legs instead it uses its wings to aid it in walking. When it walks it falls forward but it uses its wings to keep balance. I can still see food in its crop and i doubt it ate anything today or yesterday ( from when his crop was full).


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm wondering if the fall he took wasn't higher than three or four inches? Maybe take another look at where he fell from, and I think it might be higher than you originally thought, especially if his legs aren't working. That may be splay-leg beginning or he could have hurt them in the fall, but not from a short distance of three or four inches. 

Careful that the crop doesn't feel full, but have air in it instead. Measure out a bit of food for him so you can see exactly if he is eating, that is a big help. Then you can know for sure if you need to supplement him. 

If you have any old towels, t-shirts, flannels, sheets, anything soft such as cloth, it is absolutely essential for him to be on a padded, soft area, but one he can get a grip on if he tries (like a shirt). In this situation, I wouldn't expect him to be eating on his own (from what I've seen/heard of pigeons), so try to keep a close eye on the amount he's eating. Good luck, I'm glad he's feeling a bit better.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

This morning his eyes seem alittle watery, i think it may have salmanosis (paratythoid). But if i get medicine for it how am i supposed to give it to him? im scared he will choke on water.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You get the medicine ASAP and we'll get you through the dosing part.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> You get the medicine ASAP and we'll get you through the dosing part.
> 
> Pidgey


I have found a feed store that sells variety of medicine, what medicine should i buy ? he said he has spartrix and a variety of other medicines but i have to go in and see which one is correct.

I suspect the disease to be paratythoid or ecoli ( ecoli after reading the other thread that was about yellow droppings in poop)

~~~ Also its crop area is inflated with air.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Medicines for treating Paratyphoid kinda' depend on a few things but ask him about these:

Baytril (Enrofloxacin)
Bactrim, CoTrim, SulfaTrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa)
Furaltadone (that's one of the chemical names, don't know any trade names)

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Medicines for treating Paratyphoid kinda' depend on a few things but ask him about these:
> 
> Baytril (Enrofloxacin)
> Bactrim, CoTrim, SulfaTrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa)
> ...



so far my list is

cipro 
baytril
sulpha trimethprim
albon
sulmet 
aureomycin


and the ones you said

are those good? which one would u recomend ? like top 5 or something. is there one that treats both ecoli and paratythoid?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

also post which ones are most likely to be found in a feed store plz


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i called them they said they have sulmet in powder form. im goingto get it right now . can someone tell me the dosage i should give the bird? and how do i give it , i cant give alot to it because it doesnt accept anything.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Sulmet wouldn't be the drug you'd use for Paratyphoid normally, not that we know it's Paratyphoid anyhow. But if you come home with that, you might as well do it this way: Mix one level 1/4 teaspoon* (1/4 tsp) of the powder into two tablespoons* (2 tbsp) of water and give the bird 1/4 teaspoon of that mix divided into a couple of doses 12 hours apart, each day.

You're going to have to get it down the throat somehow so what kind of stuff do you have for that? Do you have a dropper?

Pidgey

*Mother-Supplied kitchen measuring spoons


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

ok i came home with the sulmet , it says for chicken and turkeys but the person said it works for pigeons also.. as well as cows and pigs. I also bought a dropper . Can you please list exacly step by step what i should do? i didnt really understand the directions , pidgy, can u rephrase it?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

ok so far , i put 1 table spoon of sulmet in about 75% of a gallon , and i put 3ml of the solution in his beak with a dropper. he took it well and now hes resting in a dark room again.

but when i opened his mouth it seems he has yellow stuff in there and he smells bad too.

He might have Two diseases , one canker and the other salmanosis or something

on the sulmet it also said use for any unknown internal problems




Is it ok to give it spartrix too with the sulmet?


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

My heart goes out to this poor, poor baby.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

This is a picture of the package and what i bought












Do you guys recomend anything else?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am not clear on if you have Spartrix or Flagyl but you should also give that. If he smells he might have cancer. Yellow deposits inside his mouth is most likely canker.

Reti


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i already gave it 1 tablet of spartrix 2 days ago for canker. the box says only one tablet per bird.

Should i give spartrix WITH sulmet?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, now I've got to figure out how in the world much medicine you actually gave him...

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, now I've got to figure out how in the world much medicine you actually gave him...
> 
> Pidgey


My dad mixed the solution, it was 1 tablepoon in 3\4 of a gallon, and we we gave the bird 3 ML of that solution. ( which was close to 1 table spoon when i poured water in the drooper and filled the spoon)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, give him three of exactly what you've already given him per day: 3 ml in the early morning, 3 ml midafternoon and 3 ml at bedtime. Keep giving the Spartrix, one per day.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Okay, give him three of exactly what you've already given him per day: 3 ml in the early morning, 3 ml midafternoon and 3 ml at bedtime. Keep giving the Spartrix, one per day.
> 
> Pidgey


How would i give the spartrix? i have to crumble the pill into powder and mix it with water to be able to give it to him because his mouth is very blocked and he cannot swallow it at all. How much water do i put for that?
are you sure i should give it 1 pill a day? even though the box says one for the whole pigeon?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> My dad mixed the solution, it was 1 tablepoon in 3\4 of a gallon, and we we gave the bird 3 ML of that solution. ( which was close to 1 table spoon when i poured water in the drooper and filled the spoon)


One (1) Teaspoon is 5 milliliters. One Tablespoon is 15 milliliters. Did you use a set of measuring spoons?

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> One (1) Teaspoon is 5 milliliters. One Tablespoon is 15 milliliters. Did you use a set of measuring spoons?
> 
> Pidgey


yeah i used the measuring spoons.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Flying_Pidgy said:


> ...and we we gave the bird 3 ML of that solution. ( *which was close to 1 table spoon when i poured water in the drooper and filled the spoon*)


Well, that's the part that I can't figure out. If you put 3 milliliters down the bird, then that's about 3/5ths of a Teaspoon, not a Tablespoon.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

im still at work right now but i gave it 3ml i think it said on the dropper. when i drew normal water to the dropper to see how close it is to a tablespoon it was close but not the whole table spoon. ( table spoon as in a regular eating spoon) when i go home il test it on a measuring cup.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, a little lesson is in order... when you're dealing with medications, you never even think of or refer to the spoons we use for eating, only the measuring spoons that are used for putting spices and such in foods being made from recipes. That's because there's a difference in how much they hold with respect to the measuring spoons so it's too confusing. I guess you've got a big dropper that goes up to 5 milliliters, huh?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I just checked our bottle of Sulmet LIQUID. It treats: ...."a wide variety of pigeon diseases caused by bacteria and recommended for treatment of Cholera, Coddidiosis, Paratyphoid, Sour Crop and some types of colds.....liquid Sulmet is dosed at the rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon of drinking water for 5 days.....the POWDER is dosed by making a stock solution of 1/2 tablespoon to a quart of water and from this solution use 2 tablespoons per gallon of drinking water for 5 days.

I'm not sure if, say, a gallon can be made and kept refrigerated, or, does a fresh batch need to be made daily?

Clint, if his throat has the yellow stuff in it it does sound like canker and he's going to need more than one Spartrix although I don't know for how long. I'd definitely go with what Pidgey is recommending (cause he's smart  )!

I'm so glad she is still hanging in there and thank you for trying so hard to save her.

PS - Ours is 12.5% concentration. I couldn't tell from Clint's bag what concentration but I guess it would be the same.

PSS- Clint, I couldn't help but notice the price - $30 bucks? Bless your heart.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The liquid Sulmet works out differently dosing-wise than the powdered stuff. It's more for intestinal infections rather than when they go systemic. I gave the instructions that I did about only putting a quarter teaspoon of powder into 2 tablespoons of water and then dosing one quarter teaspoon to the bird per day (but divide it up) so that he wouldn't have to make up so much at a time and end up throwing it out.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

See? I said you were smart!


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

It says on the package in BIG LETTERS to make a fresh batch daily, i dont mind doing that. how would i give the spartrix? i dont want to stuff up too much water in the guy, ah dont worry about the price , i work for my pijies its a small price to pay for such enjoyment and loyalty they give us that many peopoe understimate.

and also i think my dropper goes up to 3 ml only not 5. i have to double check because im still at work.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

ok guys his crop is going to get empty very soon and it hasent ate,.. what do i do for food> how do i administer it to him ?i doubt i can just hand feed him seeds in his mouth because of all the blockage.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Blockage? You mean canker blockage? Is there any way you can post a picture of that? Get somebody to open his beak while you take a picture? Can you re-weigh the bird?

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i will try to, i dont realyl want to move him too much- only when neccesary, also should i give it spartrix if so how? and how long does it take for the sulmet to work? the person there said about 12 hours anyone know anything different?


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i weighed him hes around 6 ounces i think. it shoed 3 ounces on scale but the scale is off by half remember? so its around 6 ounces.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Sometimes his eyes get realllyy cloudy like this in this pictures





























i feel so bad but i did everything i could do for him i think. everything that was available to me


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You continue the Spartrix until either the canker goes away or he dies, at this point. It's going to go one way or the other very soon now and he looks like he's really running out of steam. Sounds like he's lost 30 grams (one ounce) since the last time you weighed him. He looks like he's breathing open-beaked, too. When's the last time he got to eat anything?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just like everything else, birds have to eat in order to live. If they don't get any food for extended periods, they're in a death spiral. The amount of time they've got under such circumstances depends on what reserves they have and this little guy doesn't have much left. That cloudiness of the eyes is what's called the "nictitating membrane" which is a third eyelid that birds have that we don't. It's flicking over the eyes which they do--it's just normally so fast that you don't see it.

At that age, they're usually consuming quite a bit of their body weight per day in food and growing very quickly. He's going in the opposite direction, burning his body to try to continue to live. That actually starts a process of shutting down the systems, being able to digest and absorb food being one of them. He may have even already passed the point of no return, can't tell.

Many of us would have started the bird on supplemental feeding, probably by way of tubing it in. However, you can't feed a bird like that too much or you'll kill it as surely as if you did nothing at all. So, you might consider getting some Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula at your local pet store (like Petco or PetSmart) and also getting some tube feeding equipment (electrical heat shrink tubing from Home Depot or Lowe's) and taking a crash course this evening to try and get this bird some nutrition.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can read this thread to see various ways that is done:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

i dont think any tube will fit in there, can i blend grain in a blender and give it with a dropper? he hasnt ate in about 2 days before his crop was full


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the beauty of the heat shrink tubing is that it can go flat as you push it through. If the throat is really closed off bad, you can drown the bird by putting fluids down it that way. However, it's pretty easy to mistake how much room there is because their actual throat doesn't gape open when their mouths are open, you know.

Why don't you compare looking in the back of his throat with one of your others? Maybe that way you can get a better idea how much stuff there is.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In answer to your query, yes, you can grind up regular food very finely and mix it with water to make your own slurry. You'll just have to try it and work out a method to make it fine enough to not stick in the nozzle of your dropper. Get that working and then we'll look at some method of getting it down the bird.

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> In answer to your query, yes, you can grind up regular food very finely and mix it with water to make your own slurry. You'll just have to try it and work out a method to make it fine enough to not stick in the nozzle of your dropper. Get that working and then we'll look at some method of getting it down the bird.
> 
> Pidgey



what do you mean not stick in the nozzle of the dropper? 

- i came home from work im waiting for my dad to come home too so i can take a picture of its beak


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Seeds have husks. When you try to grind them up, some of that husk tends to stay in larger hunks that are like gravel in concrete when you try to run it through the small hole of a dropper or a tube. The hand feeding formulas are ground so fine that that isn't a problem. Just try to make some stuff that'll work and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's quite possible, but you need to practice at it. Do you have a mortar and pestle?

Pidgey


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

Im sorry guys, i just went to check on it and unfortunatly it passed away  Thank you all for your generous help and taking time off work and helping me and my friend. But i know he did not die harshly because i would have heard him, and he looks like he was resting. Once again, i thank you guys so much for your help, we tried everything we could, unfortunatly it didnt show good enough symptoms of its disease until its too late, and still we still dont know what disease or most likely Diseases took place. i appologize if i couldnt do better , im sorry to all you guys and i pray god will forgive me if i didnt do everything i could have but i tried my best to the best of my ability and the resources that were available to me.

Edit: also , it might be possible that God made him\ or her die peacefully before tomorrow because me and my dad both have to go out of town for two days and we would have had to bring him\her with us which might add extra stress on him\her and it would have died harshly.

Edit Edit: Im going to go get something to eat and take a rest, i just noticed i havent eaten anything for about a day.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

My theory of its disease is i think it might have gotten salmanosis ( paratythoid) but didnt show any signs at all ( because it was eating every single day ) and it caused it stress which might have brought in the canker.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you're going to keep pigeons, it's best to be prepared for that kind of thing by way of having a collection of certain medication on hand at all times and knowing how to use them. You can get the 4-in-1 medications if you prefer the convenience or get the separate drugs. You don't get Baytril in the multiple drug combos, though, and that's the most important one for Paratyphoid.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry this little one didn't make it. 

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm sorry this little one didn't make it. I know you did the best you could. Sometimes things just don't work out the way we hope. 
Take care.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Clint, please accept my sincere condolences on the loss of this baby. Like everyone else I have been so worried about him. You know, sometimes, nothing we do can help pull them through. We have all had this happen and it always hurts. You made him a warm, comfortable bed to rest in and did try to get medicine for him so please don't be so hard on yourself.

Let us know when you get back from your trip and maybe we can all figure out what to tell you that you need to keep on hand in the future. But keep in mind, sometimes all the medicine in the world won't help. 

She was very pretty. I want you to know that I appreciate all the concern you have shown for this little one. Sometimes it is tough being young and not always know what the right thing is to do but the important thing is that you did try.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I'm so, so sorry to read this. 

Please keep a very careful eye on the rest of your birds lest they need treating.


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## Flying_Pidgy (Apr 26, 2006)

just came back from my trip  ty everyone for all of your support. I have another bird that is his\her brother but from a previous clutch and they both look exactly the same, so atleast i know how it would have turned out and oh my what a high performing bird his\her brother is.


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## annele (Jul 31, 2011)

Hello! I'm interesting about Adenosan from Chevita company. Maybe someone can share your experience with me... Is this good for treatment? And what is it - supplement or antibiotics? Thanx)))


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