# Do you get this from family & friends regarding



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

your pet pigeons? they need to be free stuff , oh let him fly , he will come back.. what hawk, he hasn't been here in days.??? 

I am starting to feel like I am wrong here, but in my heart I know what the odds are of free flying around here. 

Any advice or suggestions on this free flying friends  would be helpful....

Thanks,
Andi


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

andinla said:


> your pet pigeons? they need to be free stuff , oh let him fly , he will come back.. what hawk, he hasn't been here in days.???
> 
> I am starting to feel like I am wrong here, but in my heart I know what the odds are of free flying around here.
> 
> ...


Hi Andinla, What breed of pigeons do you have,and how many? GEORGE


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*An opinion*

*Hi Andi~

Freeflying outdoor does have its dangers. Not only from predators but the possibility that they may want to explore, or maybe they get spooked and get lost.

I can relate to both. When I has my first pigeon, Tooter, you know of him...he got a wild streak in him. Sure he was not homed beyond the end of my property, but he wandered off. I was lucky the first time. I found him two blocks away at dusk.

Last Summer, I had an official warning from Mr. Hawk, when Tooter was on the side of the house with me, and he suddenly took off.A large spiralling form caught my eye, and I raced to the back porch, where he had flown inside his outdoor cage. I looked up again...no sign of the hawk. They are crafty.They are fast.Lucky the second time. 

Then there was the third time. New Years eve, I stepped inside to get some seed. He was standing in top of his outdoor cage, as he did for almost two years of back yard freeflying. The hawk obviously had the situation under close watch, somewhere near, just waiting for the right moment. All it took was 12 seconds, and the fight ensued. This was one of the most horrible moments in my life. Seeing my pet fighting for his life. I ran!...I yelled! I felt helpless, imagin what the pigeon felt like? Tooter flew east, the hawk went north. 

Tooter was never found. The hawk lingered around my property for weeks. No, I have not seen a hawk around my place in several weeks, but then, I had not seen one before last summer. BUT did it watch me, me the unsuspecting human?

A couple of weeks ago, I was biten by the spring bug, and making plans on removing some more trees and fallen branches/tress from work unfinished last fall...there exposed under limbs...grey feathers..green and purple irrecandecesnts too...enough to fill a sandwich sized baggie. It hurts, it pains me, to know that this may very well be my beloved Tooter. Maybe coming back looking for me. Regretably, the mighty , crafty hawk too, was waiting for him to return home. 

Freeflying outdoors, I would say no. Not if you want to loose a PET.I do not care what "friends" or even family members were to think of me...not allowing my pet pigeons to free fly outdoors. It just will not happen. *

All I have to say in closing, God bless you Tooter.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Oh, Victor, I am so sorry! While there is the possibility it was Tooter, there is always hope that the feathers were not him! I sure hope not!

Andi, when in doubt, wait or don't...in this case, imo, *don't*...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ah Victor, you've been carrying this knowledge now for a couple of weeks and I know it has hurt to even talk about it. It may have been Tooter but how can you explain the friendly pigeon at the zoo that looked like him. 

It is just something you will never know, for sure. Just know that everyone on this forum feels for you.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hey I'm sorry Victor that you believe it may be Tooter - of course it may not and just be some other poor old pidgie.
As Maggie said you have been keeping this to yourself for a few weeks now - I am sure I have mentioned Tooter in a post recently, so if I have I apologise  Unless Tooter ever shows up I guess you will never really know. 

Tania x


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

andinla said:


> your pet pigeons? they need to be free stuff , oh let him fly , he will come back.. what hawk, he hasn't been here in days.???
> 
> I am starting to feel like I am wrong here, but in my heart I know what the odds are of free flying around here.
> 
> ...


 Andi,

Knowing what we do about the danger of cars, and that something like 55,000 Americans are killed on our roads each year. Should I not avoid roads all together ? Would I not be safer ?

There are those that will disagree, but life is a risk. I say, go for it !!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

andinla said:


> your pet pigeons? they need to be free stuff , oh let him fly , he will come back.. what hawk, he hasn't been here in days.???
> I am starting to feel like I am wrong here, but in my heart I know what the odds are of free flying around here.
> Andi



The next time someone makes such a comment, tell him what the "experts" say.

Those of us who have "pet" pigeons will tell you, it is dangerous to fly them.

You have already gotten some excellent information from Victor.

I too, have pets, homing pigeons, and show birds. *Pet pigeons, who are hand raised and bonded to humans do not act the same as pigeons raised in a coop.* I can tell you the difference. My pets Skye and Sonica DO NOT ACT THE SAME because of being hand raised. They are limited in their ability to act like normal pigeons and it is dangerous to fly them as they can easily become victims of predators. They either lost the fear of predators, don't have it, or trauma, they are emotionally impaired. They also don't have the fear of humans, and are very trusting which is okay when they are at home, but if they fall into another humans hands...who knows what might become of them. There are alot of sick humans in the world, I don't take any chances with my pets.


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## jennyp (Mar 14, 2006)

funny... yesterday a pretentious friend of mine was giving me a lecture about how it was cruel of me to keep my little pigeon edgar in a cage. i didn't even bother to defend myself because the front door was open and edgar (who was not in a cage, as he only goes there to sleep) just wandered around the living room. he flew outside onto the porch but came back inside after about 10 minutes. if edgar wanted to leave, he very well could. forcing him out in the world by himself with all of its predators after he has been handraised, THAT is cruel. 

victor, that's really sad about your little pigeon. definately makes me a little apprehensive about having edgar outside so much, especially with all the neighborhood cats.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I'd be very careful, Jenny. If Edgar was outside and something frightened him, he just might take off in the wrong direction.

John


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## jennyp (Mar 14, 2006)

i'm starting to realize that the cuteness of edgar following me around the yard is overshadowed by all of the dangers. we are thinking of screening in our front porch for him to enjoy the outdoors


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I agree with Victor, Shi and Treesa...it's not worth the risk to allow a tame pigeon free flight outdoors. This doesn't even have to be a hand raised bird either. Tame birds are tame birds and they can be spooked, attacked or get lost and then it's too late to turn back the clock. Pigeons rely on safety in numbers and in a flock situation it's not as bad and...

For those who have large coops and lofts of racing pigeons or other flying breeds, this is a risk they choose to take and because of the sport of flying pigeons. With a dear pet, I think many of us would have a hard time forgiving ourselves if something happened when they were outside free flying. They can still enjoy being outdoors, in a secure aviary or pen, they can also fly indoors in your house to get their excercise and flight time but with us watching to make sure they are safe and protected.

I really think the difference lies in whether you consider your bird a pet or an expendable member of a flock that is just another number rather than an individual. Not to come down on the racers of the group but they all know the risks of flying their birds and that is understood. If I had a large flock of homing pigeons, I'd probably choose to let them free fly at times as well, not every day and not for competiton but just to watch them fly in a group. My birds however don't fly and are pets so it's not a hard decision


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Andi,

I get that sometimes from my mother, sometimes I feel the same...but how would I feel if I saw one of my special rescues carried off by a hawk?

I have dogs, but I would never open the front door and tell them to take themselves for a walk, so I wouldn't do that to pet pigeons.

Only the knowledge that keeping all my rescues would guarantee that other injured pigeons would have to be turned away to die persuades me to return healthy adults to the flocks that they came from.

Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

jennyp said:


> i'm starting to realize that the cuteness of edgar following me around the yard is overshadowed by all of the dangers. we are thinking of screening in our front porch for him to enjoy the outdoors



GREAT IDEA!!


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

I am in the same position as Jenny, in that my Jax has been allowed free flight into the garden area round my flat. I have had her out supervised over the last two 1/2 years, but reading of Victor's loss of poor Tooter, and the input from others here, I realise now that it really was a 'lottery' every time I allowed her to go outside. She was hand raised from about 3 weeks of age and has always been in captivity since then. I have had a few scary 'outdoor moments' during the earlier days, and I count myself extremely lucky not to have learned the hard way. At the time, being a novice to pigeon keeping, I thought I was acting in her best interest by allowing her freedom outdoors. I now realise that just one little fright could send her off permananently. I love my pidge dearly and just can't take that risk with her anymore.

Andi...On the friends and family issue, I am lucky that I've never had any adverse comments from family with regards to keeping a pet pigeon. We have always kept every pet under the sun over the years. My sister is a veterinary nurse who often takes in waifs and strays, it's thanks to her that I have Jax. My mum also successfully raised 4 orphaned mallard ducks.

I have friends who are negative about me keeping Jax, and I also have friends who don't particularly like pigeons, but they are getting used to Jax now, and will quite happily let her sit on their heads etc. There are also a number of people who think I am quite mad, but hey, I'm proud to say I have a pet pigeon. It's certainly a good conversation starter!

Lindi


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

jennyp said:


> i'm starting to realize that the cuteness of edgar following me around the yard is overshadowed by all of the dangers. we are thinking of screening in our front porch for him to enjoy the outdoors


Jenny, that is what Bev and I were discussing just a few days ago, making our back porch an enclosure. I think it is a very good idea. It is good for the bird, and can make the house look good as well, if built right.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Brad, Your points well presented. Thank you.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi all,
There has been a few good threads started up lately and I believe this to be one of them...
To fly or not to fly?....that is the question
I myself have 13 pigeons that I keep in a loft/aviary design. I do not let them to free fly.
I had much internal debate on whether to free fly them so I did a bit of a mental pro's and con's list.

Pros
.My pigeons get to fly around and stretch their wings just like nature intended them to.

Cons
.There are many predators that could take them including Hawks, Neighbourhood Cats, etc
.They could get spooked or lost and not return (My first Pigeon Cecil came to me because he got lost and was not banded, logic tells me there is a good possibility for his offspring to have the similar roving attitude)
.Possible disturbances with neighbours if they chose to land on their roof / fence or just meander around a little before returning to their loft
.Even though I have 13 pigeons I consider every one a pet of mine and the affection shown by them when I enter the loft confirms that they too consider themselves pets... because of being so tame what would happen if they got too close to a 'not so pigeon friendly' human
.My Pigeons are Show Pigeons, not Homers/Racers, so their homing instinct is not as well developed as it is in other Racing Pigeons, as they have been bred for show not racing.

I got to about here in my mental list and decided the best thing for me to do was build a huge aviary style enclosure that they could free fly in and stretch their wings.
They absolutely love being able to fly around and they are never bored with all the social interraction they have between each other.

So for me I compromised a little on flight freedom to ensure the security and comfort of my PET pigeons...if ever I feel a little sad about not being able to free fly them I just think of the Cons list again.

Having said that...If I had larger space and a racing loft setup I would have many racers and free fly and train them, but then they would not be considered my 'pets' as such.

As for what other people say...People are often quick to give opinions on topics they know very little about...I believe you are the best person to judge what is right for you and your pets.

Just my five cents worth.
Regards
Alaska


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Alaska~ I was intending to send you a private message, but opted to make it public, I appreciate you posting, and I think it is worth way more than 5 cents. At the very least, a brand new shiny one fresh out of the MINT!


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## jennyp (Mar 14, 2006)

that pros and cons list really made me think. i really would be absolutely heartbroken if something were to happen to my little pigeon. it's funny how attatched i am to him and he's only around 2 months old.
so for now i think edgar will continue to fly around the house as he pleases with me chasing behind to clean up his messes. 

a screened in porch is going to be quite a summer project... i know not the first thing about making it screened in so it should be quite an adventure.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

jennyp said:


> that pros and cons list really made me think. i really would be absolutely heartbroken if something were to happen to my little pigeon. it's funny how attatched i am to him and he's only around 2 months old.
> so for now i think edgar will continue to fly around the house as he pleases with me chasing behind to clean up his messes.
> 
> *You could always buy him a "flight suit." Mr. Squeaks is wearing his in my Avatar picture. They are otherwise known as "pigeon diapers" and they work! Squeaks doesn't wear his all the time but if I have company and he's out and about, sure saves mucho pick ups!!*
> ...


*Any friends who are building knowledgeable?*


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*I only have 1 little feral*

pigeon who is very smart. 

Victor, my heart hurts just reading your spring cleaning and uncovering of feathers. That would be my worst nightmare..... But hopefully and I want to believe that Tooter is happy with little tooters in tote... 

Andi


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Andi,
> There are those that will disagree, but life is a risk. I say, go for it !!


Hi Andi,

I may be one of two lone voices out here but I am on-side with Warren on this one. We may not agree with the others. But life *is* a risk. Can we protect our birds from all adversity? No!. Can we protect our children from all that life dishes out? Also no!

So the answer is no and a very, very loud *No.* 

So then should parents cage their children and their birds in the same breath.

And the answer is still no.

You have to use your own judgment on this issue. Ask yourself if your bird is capable of surviving on it's own. Can it fend for itself. Have you reviewed other posts that talk about releasing pets to the wild. Is your bird waterproofed and fit, is it a strong flier, can it sustain itself in the wild???????

Does it trust people too much. There are a lot of variables. I have struggled with this one myself and even up until very recently thought I could release my "Buddy" into the wild. I have tested him in my own way though. Put him throught the paces as it were. 

My conclusion in these last few days is that he* is *a pet. He would not survive the wild. But that is not the case for every bird. So I want to say that Warren is not wrong. And if there is a chance, let your bird fly free. At least for a chance to experience life as birds are meant to have it. With all the warmth or bitterness that life brings. You really have to use your own head and heart and not listen to what family, friends or others have to say sometimes. Each case is unique.

Only *you *can know and feel for sure what is right for your birds.

Cameron


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Well Cameron Coo-Coo Was*

Drafted to the Dodger's today so there will be no free flying today, or in the near future. Unless he is flying high to catch pop up flys in the outfield. 

Take a look at the starting line up .........


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Oh Lord Andi,

I am so foolish sometimes. I thought your questions on this thread were serious. Sorry I wasted your time with a serious response.

Cameron


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Cameron They or It Really Was*

a serious question , I just need some humor in my life or I am going to go crazy... I appreciate your input very much ... I just thought Coo-Coo looked so cute in his pics.....come on Cam smile ...........ya know I really do appreciate you.... I do.........

I have thought about it over and over again in my mind, I weighed the bad and the good... I believe that all things should be free. I let my rabbits (3) for over 8 years have free range to the back yard, even though rabbit rescue groups told me I was wrong, and that they would be killed by *****, dogs, cats....2 died of old age and 1 is still alive and is now a inside bunny do to being blind, and not able to run like he used to....

I found Coo-Coo at my back door bleeding, skinny to where the breast bone was sticking out when you looked at him, string, yarn,and human hair wrapped tightly around his feet to the point he would take 2 steps and fall over... I believe he was attacked by the hawk at my work and some how managed to get away. His flight feathers were gone, his feathers on his back mostly gone.... I think of him flying free back to his friends , family and them all saying hey look who's back... where the heck did you go? And then being a selfish person I think of me thinking if he is ok?, is he starving,? how come he didn't come back? and the thought of not seeing him again makes me sad.. And the worst thing I think about is , if I happen to let him fly and that stupid big hawk just happens to be near and he takes off after Coo-Coo and he gets him, I would never forgive myself..... He has become used to my dog, my cats, a squirrel , and likes people ... So has he become to tame to release I think the answer is yes...

I appreciate everyone's reply' s and input here on pigeon talk.... 

Thank you
Andi


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Andi, 

I free fly my birds, but they are nature savvy. They have the whole flock always looking in different directions. The crows and sparrows warn them and if they can't get to the air in time...they have their hiding places to get to in a pinch. They know where they are at! Does Coo Coo Bird have places to hide to dodge a speeding bullit? 

I believe this with all my heart, if you have only one pigeon, then don't fly him. Coo Coo Bird is your pet and no one elses. Are any of those people going to grieve for him when he's gone? Will anyone shed a tear? You are right girlfriend, you do know what is best for your pet. He will live a long happy life as long as you are looking out for him. As Victor said, hawks are stalkers. You won't even know they are there. Nature will tell you, but you have to learn how to read it, and you usually end up paying for the class.

Love Ya 
Feather

Victor,
You know darn well what Tooter is doing! How do you think Andi got away from the cheese.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Don't go crazy Andi!

And I am glad to hear you are getting away from the Head-Cheese that Feather mentioned, (or is that cheese-head). No matter, as long as you get away from them and have some humour in you life. 

I get so off-track at times. I love you guys though. Just so you know!

Have a great day, eh!

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I’m going to tell you guys a story. This is a true story, not imagery.
Well first I have to tell you how I came to have this little bird. In spring when many pigeon fanciers are training their pigeons, a lot of them end up here, I think they come for water or they see my birds flying and join up with them. Well anyways this darling little tumbler adopted us. He had a band with his owner’s phone number on it, so I called.

When the guy arrived he told me that he had performing tumblers, and that this little bird flew crazy (which he did). He said that he was throwing his trained birds off so he let him out by his son’s preschool. We talked for awhile, and I told him that I really had too many birds. So he said that he would take him home and try him again, but if he kept throwing his birds off that he would let him out again. I told him wait a minute, my birds are just birds, and I don’t have any performing birds, so you can leave him here. Eventually he mated with a very sweet bird of mine and started raising a family.

One day in late summer. The summer that the N.C.D. took all of our crows, I was cleaning the loft. Crazy flyer had his house in a rabbit hutch right next to the loft. I was sweeping out side the loft when this big massive thing crashed right in front of me. It was a huge hawk that must have misjudged the space between the tree and the loft, and crashed. It was so big that I was in shock. Mr. Hawk was so close to me that I could have picked up my foot and stepped on it. Its wing span was more than 3 ft. Well all of the birds took off. Crazy Flyer was sitting on some eggs, and was safe inside his cage but, for some reason he jumped out of his cage in front of the hawk a started flapping around on the ground like he was wounded, then took off with the hawk right after him.

What I didn’t know was that the hawk had his mate, and that while he was crashed on the ground the little bird was beneath him. When the chase pursued, he left the little hen lying on the ground. She was hurt and in shock and when I went to pick her up she panicked and flew up on the telephone wire. All day my mother and I worried that the hawk would come back to get her. She was clearly in shock...We were also very sad for Crazy Flyer, and couldn’t believe what he had done. I didn’t know how I was going to get Gengi off of the wire; the sun was already starting to set. Off in the distance I saw this little dot moving all over the sky. My mom said do you think that is him. I answered by saying what else would be moving all over the sky like that. It was…it was him...with a new name. We called him Hero after that. He first went to look at his eggs, and then found his mate. He started cooing and talking to her ever so sweetly. It was twilight now, and he was still trying to get her to come down. Then he flew to a branch on the tree all the while calling her. The next time I went out side (it was already dark) they were both sitting on the branch. Then he went to a lower branch and called to her. Later that night I found them both in their nest. The hawk had taken one of her eyes. Hero was very protective of her and took very good care of Gengi until she disappeared in Oct. I ran into his first owner in the feed store and couldn’t thank him enough for our brave little man. I think that crazy flying saved both of their lives.

We love you too Cameron


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

That is really a lovely story Feather, It brought a few tears to my eyes to tell you the truth. It is a story about love and you told it so well.

thanks,

Cameron


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

THANKS for the GREAT story, Feather! 

Give Hero a HUGE HUG and KISS for me!


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank You Shi,

Today I told Hero that I posted his brave deed for the whole world to see,

then I gave him a kiss from you, and I gave him another one from

me. I don't think he liked it not one bit.

Feather


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Feather,
Thanks for posting about Hero. It's such a beautiful love story. I can't wait to share it with family & friends.

Phyll


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Hero the not-so-crazy flier*

*Feather*, 

That is such a wonderful story about *Hero*, Feather; about how he lovingly cooed his mate *Genji* down to the nest and cared for her. She disappeared, you say. Was it sudden, or are there more details (probably painful to recall)? (I am not trying to bring up painful reminders). Since she had only one eye then, did she become disoriented and get lost, or do you know what happened? Not knowing what has happened to a missing pigeon can be very hard. 

*Victor*, 

I think -- my opinion or my guess, you decide -- is that there would be more than just feathers if you had come across the remains of your beloved *Tooter*. 

When our *Pidgiepoo* was chased off by crows in a Cologne city park at noon on a sunny Friday, January 14th, 2004, my wife was consoled by her brother Dirk a week or two later. He is a forester at a large city park in Antwerp, and has a number of years of experience and varied education behind him. He told her that he doubted that crows had killed our Pidgiepoo, and he said that (I loosely paraphrase him) bird carcasses last a long time. It is usually above freezing here most of the winter. In a tropical jungle I would expect an animal carcass to disappear within a day from insect activity and fungi and molds. 

Shortly after Pidgiepoo diasappeared, I noticed a pigeon carcass near some recycling containers not too far from us. Fifty to a hundred pigeons gathered there daily for food left for them. The carcass was in the ivy at the bottom of a hedge which separated a small private lawn from the brick pavement. Bright red blood had gushed from its vent. I suspected that it had eaten some rat poison the neighboring apartment dweller had put out. The carcass was not noticeable unless one was looking for something. Most insect life seemed dormant for the winter. I decided to observe the pigeon and use it as a benchmark or indicator of what I should be looking for or what I should expect to see if I should come across the carcass of Pidgiepoo. The blood near the vent stayed a bright red for a couple of days. I had expected it to dry and turn black the same day. The rats and the occasional cat left the carcass alone. There was not enough warmth to cause decomposition and smells to the degree that the sanitation workers would notice it. They cleaned the area once or twice a week, but did not examine the shrubbery closely. The carcass seemed to remain untouched for more than a month, maybe two months (I still have the dates in my 2004 log, but on my old computer, if someone wants the details). 

I have seen pigeon carcasses on the embankments under a local train bridge (where I found our 8-month-old *Wieteke*), and they were dusty and grimy with age, and the fleshy parts slowly scavenged out. They had died "naturally" (as opposed to being killed by a car or by a raptor) I presume, from environmental toxins consumed over their life-spans, or from disease. Their feathers were dark with age, and one could see some of the skeleton under the skin and feathers. The wings and most of the feathering were intact. I would expect some feathers and some skin and gristle if I were to come across the remains of Pidgiepoo in some bushes, even today.

A cousin collected and mounted some fifty to a hundred local ****erflies and moths and some beetles in a display case, on velvet, in Texas, in the mid-1960s. The bodies of the insects were slowly consumed by microscopic insects and turned to dust over the next two decades, and in the 1990s the ****erfly and moth wings turned to dust, and even the velvet where they rested was consumed. Sounds like an adjoining room from one of the scenes in Alfred Hitchcock's _Psycho,_ or from some museum storage room. 

These details may sound grisly to some, but I personally see the variations in how we are decomposed and recycled as interesting and even beautiful in their own way. I am not belittling the feelings and emotions we encounter when we are dealing with pets and those dear to us. I try to use different compartments for some things.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*A cousin collected and mounted some fifty to a hundred local ****erflies and moths and some beetles in a display case, on velvet, in Texas, in the mid-1960s. The bodies of the insects were slowly consumed by microscopic insects and turned to dust over the next two decades, and in the 1990s the ****erfly and moth wings turned to dust, and even the velvet where they rested was consumed. Sounds like an adjoining room from one of the scenes in Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, or from some museum storage room. *

That is quite interesting, Larry. I would have thought the "bodies" would have been preserved forever. I am assuming that TO preserve over time, one would have to use a "preservative" of some kind??


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Good Morning, Everyone!

Larry,

Thank you for your concern about Gengi. We had her for about 13 months after her brush with the hawk. The crows that had nested in the tress in my neighbors’ yards for years were gone due to the West Nile virus. They played a vital part in my birds well being as no hawk could inter this very established circle without them sounding off an alarm. In fact they would arrest the Hawk and fly him out of town before he even got close to us. Without our sky police, we were experiencing Hawk attacks for the first time. 

I broke my hand …when I fell… running after a hawk that had grabbed my bird . That is when I learned that you could scare a hawk into dropping its prey by making a lot of noise. You just have to get there before the hawk swoops down and picks it up again. Well anyways I reclaimed my baby, and some misplaced fingers.

I had surgery twice, No big thing...I was an Out Patient. The hard part is after you get home. While you are still drugged they tell you that you have to sit completely still with your hand above your heart for weeks. Well you’ll agree to anything just to get out of there. It was impossible for me, so I messed up my first surgery. 

The second time that I had surgery, my sister and my husband decided I should recuperate at her house. I agreed because I was informed right after I had the surgery when I was still drugged. 

That didn’t work for me though. I just wanted to come home. So the doctor gave me some meds that made me sleep all the time. It was during the time that I went in for the 2nd surgery and stopped taking those stupid pills that I lost Gengi. I don’t know how, and I am not sure of the day. She was just gone. 

So many scenarios have gone through my mind, and yes, all of them are painful, but I do appreciate you asking about her. 

Feather


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Thanks Feather,

for the remarks concerning Genji. 

Hands are so valuable to us. I came across or heard a remark one time made by a surgeon that he would be extremely picky about whom he allowed to perform surgery on one of his hands. He would settle for only the very best. 

Mr. Squeaks, 

My cousin (in te 1960s) would put the captured insect in a (mayonnaise) jar with some Kleenex and some drops of rubbing alcohol, for a couple of minutes. I don't think he had access to formalin or formaldehyde at the time, which is the preservative besides alcohol and radiation which most readily comes to my mind. He may have used mothballs or flakes for a while, until he lost interest or simply forgot.

After reading your post, it occurred to me that it didn't necessarily have to be microscopic insects (such as house dust mites, or whatever) that ate the remains. Perhaps molds and fungi could have participated, since spores would settle on the remains over the years.


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## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

*Couldn't disagree more!*

Yes, cars are dangerous, and if everyone slowed down it would be much safer! 

Having said that you have to look at the odds not the numbers. The odds of being in a car accident are still slim.

In my case, rollers are particularly at risk (I'm told) because their "erratic" movement is seen by hawks as evidence of illness/weakness.

My bird's breeder told me he loses approx. one third!!! of his birds each year to hawks. (flock size about 150) Those are not odds I'm willing to take. My small flock dwindled from 13 to 3 in 6 months, and I saw the hawk on my balcony. Again not good longevity odds.

Seeing the hawk was what persuaded me to capture the birds and give them to Terry. (I kept my Brownie as a pet.) It still saddens me to look at the rooftop, and telephone wire, and patch of sky where I used to see "my" pigeons romping and gloriously flying. But I can tell Brownie is still a very happy bird, and if it adds ten or fifteen years to her life, I'm just not willing to take that chance.

Last thought. My boyfriend was angry at me for adopting Brownie, and felt it was cruel and unfair to keep her indoors. He has totally changed his mind, seeing that she is a happy bird.




SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Andi,
> 
> Knowing what we do about the danger of cars, and that something like 55,000 Americans are killed on our roads each year. Should I not avoid roads all together ? Would I not be safer ?
> 
> There are those that will disagree, but life is a risk. I say, go for it !!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

This is a case, where you must use your own judgement. I after all, breed a strain of pigeon that is bred for speed and flying ability, not to be compared with an average homer, let alone something like a roller. With perhaps anywhere from 300 to 3,000 breeds out there, it is hard to write a hard and fast rule for everyone. 

In my case, these birds are bred for one thing, and just about one thing only, to outfly any other pigeon out there. I have gotten in trouble in the past, for suggesting that perhaps a racing pigeon caught by a Cooper Hawk, could be too slow, and more like a roller. At any rate, keep your rollers inside, and away from any hawk for the next several generations, and the birds will cease to be true rollers, regardless of what the pedigree might say. Just like a racing pigeon line, which has been bred "For Stock" for more then a couple generations...they turn out not to be racers at all.....

Makes you wonder how the ferals learn to live with the hawks, and a fancier loses 2/3's of his flock.... What is he doing so different ?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Victor and sandwich bag of feathers*


Note for *Victor*, 

*The feathers you collected in a sandwich baggy, and which you suspected may have been from Tooter, may have been the molted feathers of some (other) pigeon*. 

Once a pigeon is preoccupied with pulling loose feathers, he can assemble quite a pile of them in one place.

In the thread "Molt...gosh they are ugly" started by Pigeonkid1046 post dated 16th April 2006 2:49 A.M. (German time, CET), 
George Simon stated in his post that the molt process is controlled by the amount of light or daylight, 
and SmithFamilyLoft said that you can minimize, start or stop the molt process. 

This made me recall that our rescued and hand-raised *Pidgiepoo* had a heavy (second?) molt in December, 2004 when he was seven months old, which may have been induced by indoor light. (There is very little daylight in Germany in December). He was sexually active from age three months on, until we lost him when he was chased by crows in a city park on January 14, 2005. The outdoor pigeons were not sexually active (males courting females) in the winter, and he aroused the curiosity of the feral females. 

He had a first molt in October, and I had a note in my log for October 21st that perhaps his molt was over, since there weren't so many feathers on the floor that day.

Pidgiepoo lost a lot of feathers in December, and I counted them when I cleaned up in the morning after him (he slept in our apartment at night, and spent a few hours outside, near by, everyday.

*Some log notes:
*
Wednesday, December 1, 2004 
Pidgiepoo has heavy molting. 
At 10:00 A.M. Hilde (my wife) hands me a small *peanut b-tter jar full of feathers* from 2-3 hours he spent in the art atelier. (I didn't make a precise count, because some of them may have been from before today).	
7:00 P.M. *81* feathers collected by Hilde in atelier from 17:00-19:00.
11:59 P.M. *188* Feathers lost 19:00-24:00. 

Thursday, December 2, 2004. 
Pidgiepoo has heavy molting. (Weight 286 grams). 
6:00 P.M. *44* Feathers lost.

Friday, December 3, 2004 
Pidgiepoo has heavy molting. 
*35* feathers lost, including one 8-cm feather from tail. 

Saturday, December 4, 2004 
Pidgiepoo has heavy molting. 
*70* Feathers lost. 

Sunday, December 5, 2004 
*22* Feathers lost. 

Monday, December 6, 2004 
*19* Feathers lost, including one 10-cm feather. 

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 
*128* feathers lost, including one 8-cm feather.

And in January, shortly before we lose him:
Friday, January 6th, 2005
Pidgiepoo removes more down feathers. (He looked a bit slimmer after so much feather loss. We lost him on a sunny day, at noon, but days of snow followed).


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

HI Larry, I'm glad you keep such good records. I had no idea they lost that many feathers in a molt. Very interesting information. Thanks.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi Larry, Yes I did read your first post as well, and do appreciate both of them. My wife Bev has not lost hope, and your comments do restore my hope that if anything, he has returned to the skies and is alright. Thanks. Your post(as all of them are!) was quite interesting.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks from me too, Larry, for your very informative post. Don't think I've seen anyone else who has actually kept count. Of course, if they have more than ONE bird.

LOL Although I have only Squeaks, there ARE times when I swear he has lost TWICE what you listed!!   

Oh yes, I think some time back, I listed my "pigeon exercises" - mostly involving picking up feathers and poops (without Flight Suit)...


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Keeping count*

If I didn't keep notes of what I do during the day, I'd probably pee in my pants. 

Well, it's probably not quite that bad yet. Getting there. Sometimes I forget to take this med or that med. All the stuff I put on my mental agenda at night for the next day often doesn't see realization. 

Since pigeons were something new for me, I noted anything unusual or seemingly remarkable. When I write a post and need to refer to something from my experience, I find quite often that I am about to post false information, and that checking the log helps. I am not referring to trivial info such as 18 feathers as opposed to 21 feathers being shed, but often something such as symptoms of illness and the reason I used a certain medicine or treatment, and how much medicine and how many doses and for how long. 

It is a good memory exercise to make notes at the end of a day, or for the past several days. For example, I didn't note when *Pidgiepoo* apparently started his first molt. It probabyl started out as more than the four or five or ten feathers found the following morning under his perch or near where he slept. I remember reading early on in this forum that a small pile of feathers after a night's sleep, and a nice collecton of poops, indicated a healthy bird. When his discarded feather count first increased I didn't know much, if anything, about molting. But when you suddenly see fifty or sixty feathers, or double or triple the usual amount, you take notice and prepare yourself for panic. 

I take notes of things because I often don't know what they mean, or what they portend, until a pattern emerges. 

Our male rescued and hand-raised 8-month-old *Wieteke* spends a good deal of the day outdoors, so I don't try to count feathers. I only try to notice unusual behavior.

Looking back over what I have noted concerning a pigeon (or my wife, or friends, or how I have spent my time) sometimes amuses, shocks, and disconcerts me when I see in black print on white paper evidence of the things I have missed. 

Sometimes I sit down to write a short note, and when I finish, hours have passed. For example, this short note for Victor I started at noon, and by the time I looked up and sorted out the details and formulated what I wanted to say, it was three hours later. I use several fingers for typing -- I'm left-handed and I draw and make cartoons and paint, besides picking my nose -- but I'm not as fast as the generation not raised to think that typing was something only secretaries and college term-paper writers did on a manual portable typewriter. 

Gotta go. Best regards to all. I still think *Pidgiepoo* is out there somewhere, enjoying life. *Wieteke* and his feral mate *Mamieke* should have their first babies hatch in a few days, in the pet carrier sitting on top of a wardrobe next to our bed in our small apartment. (Their first egg was infertile).


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks for the update, Larry! Always thought "lefties" were special. My oldest son was left-handed. 

I hear you about "time"...I sit after breakfast to play thread/post catch-up from the day before and by the time I'm finished, it's waaay past lunch time! AND, when working, I was the office "computer hater" ("Who wants to sit for hours at a stupid computer????") *sigh* just shows to go ya, it's all in the INCENTIVE!

You use one of the most famous typing methods: The Columbus System - Discover and Land (ok, ok, I know...baaaaad)    

You have a unique ability to show us a more comprehensive side of pigeon watching! AND, you can write!! MANY THANKS!!


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Actually Shi, I thought that "Discover and Land" notation was pretty acurate.
Just look at me for instance, I should have been on the road 15 mins ago, and here I am. I logged on this morning just to read, I wasn't going to post anything, I think I have been on here for 4 hr. now. 

Gotta Go!
Feather


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Feather said:


> Actually Shi, I thought that "Discover and Land" notation was pretty acurate.
> Just look at me for instance, I should have been on the road 15 mins ago, and here I am. I logged on this morning just to read, I wasn't going to post anything, I think I have been on here for 4 hr. now.
> 
> Gotta Go!
> Feather


Yeah, Feather, I hear you! DARN ADDICTIVE SITE !!!   

The site FAMILY is just sooooo large, that it takes time to play "catch-up!"


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## High.flyer (Mar 11, 2006)

I always let my birds free-fly, because after two days of not flying they get really anxious to fly and as soon as I open the cage, off they go. It was never really a worry for me, as long as they fly in a group they're always safe. Plus, one pigeon never flies alone, If it does and no one joins him/her it'll come down in about a minute. I think having a large group of pigeons is the safest, because if even one of them sees a hawk, I think it alerts the others.

Edit: Oh, but I only open them on sunny days, When they get as high as the clouds I think they can get lost.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

High.flyer said:


> I always let my birds free-fly, because after two days of not flying they get really anxious to fly and as soon as I open the cage, off they go. It was never really a worry for me, as long as they fly in a group they're always safe. Plus, one pigeon never flies alone, If it does and no one joins him/her it'll come down in about a minute. I think having a large group of pigeons is the safest, because if *even one of them sees a hawk, I think it alerts the others.*




Oh yes, indeed! Azwhitefeather has her pigeons in an indoor Aviary with windows on 3 sides. One day, her pigeons just "froze." They looked like statues. Sure enough, when she looked outside, there he was - Mr. Sharp Shinned Hawk!!


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