# Medications



## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

When a bird is ailing, what medications are needed? That's a crazy question because it doesn't make sense. Is it viral? Is it fungal? Is it bacterial? Is it parasitic? Is it an organic disease like diabetes or cancer? Is it contagious? Should the bird be quarantined? Did you know that a lot of birds that have survived PMV often die from aspergillus a fungal infection? How can you determine if the bird has a post PMV infection if you don't have tests done by a vet?

Somebody posted that his bird was sitting all fluffed up so what medications were needed? How can any responsible person answer that question? They can't. There is no substitute for diagnostic testing and that costs money so if people are going to own birds, they have to be responsible and willing to shell out some bucks to find out what's going on. The bottom line is that if people are not willing to find out what's wrong and medicate in the dark, they shouldn't own birds. If people own a lot of pigeons and one or two are ill, then take one in to a vet to find out what's wrong. 

Every medication has bad side effects so treating for an unknown illness or even a known illness is going to have the potential of doing more harm. Over medicating is as bad as under medicating. Give a wormer to a bird under 8 weeks of age is going to cause liver damage. Giving a bird more antibiotics than is needed is going to create a yeast infection. Even giving a bird the correct dose for the correct time can cause a yeast infection that freezes the crop. How do you know if the bird has developed a yeast infection? You take the bird back for further testing. This is not easy stuff and people need the tests done by a qualified vet. 

The people who post here usually do not take their birds in for testing. It's wrong but the folks here who know something of illnesses are put into the position of trying to diagnose what's wrong over the web and that's plain wrong so, to reduce the potential of being incorrect, they give possible other reasons for why the bird is ill and leave it up to the individual to treat with whatever they want to do. That can cause a lot of damage because you may be treating for something that isn't even there.

Some of you aren't going to like this post because it's an 'in your face' kind of post but it happens to be the truth. Maybe you don't have a good vet to rely on or you don't have the money to shell out for tests and because you think magic comes out of a bottle, you will treat blindly. There is no substitute for a qualified vet. 

Pidgey has the qualifications to look under a microscope and see parasites and what kind of parasites. He may even have gram stain kits. He can go to his vet to find out more and he does. The point is that he can do it for HIS birds but he can't do it for yours. Nobody can except you. Please try to remember that you can't get miracles out of a bottle especially when you may not have the right bottle.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Did you know that a lot of birds that have survived PMV often die from aspergillus a fungal infection? How can you determine if the bird has a post PMV infection if you don't have tests done by a vet?


That is very interesting Fred, because although the authorities on PMV mention that pigeons are susceptible to aspergillosis and canker while infected none of them have mentioned a mortality rate connected with "post PMV infection". Can I ask where you got this info? 

I have a number of pigeons that I nursed through PMV in my aviary and I can honestly say that they none of them have needed diagnostic testing at any time, they are all in good health.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> .... Please try to remember that you can't get miracles out of a bottle especially when you may not have the right bottle.


Well said and to the point....

fp


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

Last January (2006), I took care of a total of 8 PMV birds. Based on my own experiences but more so, based on my vet's advice, I treated them concurrently with Baytril, a canker killer and a med to keep cocci down. They were also wormed. Of course, this substantially reduced the possibility of those kinds of infections but in treating them while they were sick, it also kept down the possibility of a post PMV infection since they were in a relatively clean environment. 

Two of the birds died from the PMV leaving 6 alive. Of the six surviving birds, three started to get sick and I took them back to the vet (not all at the same time). The throats were swabbed and aspergillus was found in all of them. They were treated with some very heavy stuff for weeks and two of those birds didn't make it through. Of a total of 8 birds, only 4 survived. 50% is not a very good success rate but the mortality rate would have been 100% if they were left outside. 

I wouldn't treat a bird for a fungal infection unless it was diagnosed. the medications are just too powerful and can do damage if unnecessarily given. Frankly, with these results, I should rethink my opinion about anti-fungals but I still don't think I would treat as a preventative. These are the chances that one has to take. The one thing I didn't treat for while they were sick was an anti-fungal and that's what did them in.

These birds could not be released so I found somebody willing to take them in. One of those birds started to throw up chunks of a substance so I went back up and took the bird in for testing. Guess what? He had aspergillus and he died from that. The vet put him down. Maybe my experience is not yours but what else could I conclude about this experience?

This year (January), I have found one PMV bird and he didn't give me a chance to treat him.It was a bad case.

This isn't Fred. Fred will never post here again. There were too many personality conflicts and so in order to try to help without mucking things up, he won't post. Pigeonperson wants only to try to help birds and not get and give arguments.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pigeonperson

I agree 100% with what you said. However, in some cases, people do not have access to vets like maybe you and I do and they may not have the resources even if a vet is available. In those situations I would rather at least try to help folks than not but always encouraging them to seek a vet if possible.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Well, if you were Fred I would commend you for being flexible enough to treat pigeons with PMV now.

There is a very good but simple booklet on PMV written by H Vindevogel and J P Duchatel which I would recommend to anyone that gets involved with nursing PMV victims. It is based on veterinary studies. However, it was written before PPMV1 reached the US, so it doesn't offer clarification about the strains you might have there.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think what you are saying is pretty much what has been said in various ways numerous times before (which doesn't make it any less valid) but unfortunately this is not an ideal world where everyone has access to a vet who will even look at a pigeon, let alone have any real knowledge of pigeon illnesses. 

Another point is that if one has to wait for test results to come back, as many vets just don't have all the right facilities/experience in hoiuse, a bird could pass on in the meantime through lack of at least some effort at treatment, however 'amateur'.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Also, Maggie, as we all know pigeons can get sick and die within a very short period, sometimes a matter of hours. There is often no time to get tests done and we must do what we can to save them. Even the vet must take a guess at probabilities.

It is the same here with humans. When I was hospitalised they treated me with antibiotics as well as steroids, guessing that I had either Extrinsic Allergic Alveolitis or Chlamydia Psittachi. 

Apparently 7 weeks later they haven't established what I am suffering from and have written to my doctor speculating that it might be something that you in the US call BOOP (Bronchiolitis Obliterans Organising Pneumonia) and we call COP (Cryptogenic Organising Pulmonitis) WEll at least there is some organisation there!

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pigeonperson, with all due respect, I think you may be missing part of what I believe is the purpose of this board's Sick or Injured section. I mean, what would be the point if for anyone asking for help we informed them to please check our resources section for a qualified vet in your area we do not diagnose or offer medical advice for sick or injured birds over the Internet. Many of the people who come to this board come because they have a sick bird and need help. For whatever the reasons are, be it lack of money, location, or perhaps fear the bird is in such a condition it will be PTS if taken to a wildlife centre, they have come here and not a vet, so we try our best to help. I don’t necessarily think it’s our duty to question their motivations, or lack there of, but to keep in mind that there is a sick bird at hand and that we may be the bird's best hope at a chance of regaining health again.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, does that mean you do not have pigeon lung? I sure hope they can come up with the right diagnosis.

I do want to add one more thing to this thread about taking birds to vets. Yes, I agree 100% with that, however, the vet is not always right. Last summer, many of you may remember that we had a mysterious illness hit one of our aviaries causing the death of two of our beloved pigeons - one of which was my special pet. About 6 days prior to this, one of our other pigeons was breathing heavily with an open beak and clearly needed attention. I immediately gave this pigeon Baytril and as soon as the vet's office opened took him there. The vet diagnosed head trauma - said he had apparently hit something in the aviary. She gave him a steroid shot and told us to stop giving Baytril. At the time, I just didn't believe this bird had hit anything but followed instructions. Within 2 days the breathing was so labored we felt we were losing him and I started him back on Baytril. Within about 5 days the bird was doing much better and we were able to put him back in the aviary about 2 weeks later. 

We had absolutely no warning that the two we lost were ill until we observed them (about 6 days later) with labored breathing and brought them both to the house. My pet died immediately and the other lingered for another day. We took the first one for a necropsy and it was decided that it was a type of protozoal parasite caused by roaches or opossums. By then, I had alerted our regular vet (not the one who diagnosed head trauma) and both she and the pathologist agreed we should give all of the pigeons in that aviary a round of Baytril. We did not have another death.

The point I'm trying to make here is that had I not arbitrarily started the 1st sick pigeon back on Baytril we would have lost him too. Had the 1st vet run tests we may have not lost the two we did. So, they can overlook things. I still trust this vet because she has helped us save several pigeons over the years and will continue to take birds to her when our regular vet is not available.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

Cynthia,
If you developed pigeon lung, aside from the physical debilities, I am so sorry for your trouble. Knowing how much you love these birds, I can't think of a worse illness that you could come down with. What are you going to do with your birds? Can you keep them? You would probably have to wear something like a spacesuit to fully protect yourself. This feather dust is in your home as well as outside. Have you been able to figure out a way to solve that problem? Have you considered painting the entire house as a start? Again, this is real trouble for you.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I don't think there is a miracle in a bottle, and I wouldn't assume that every vet who will treat birds or pigeons does so with a 100% track record for
diagnosing correctly. This certainly wouldn't be my experience either.

Yes, folks do come here many times because they have acted as a good samaritin and picked up a bird in trouble and need help with helping the injured or sick bird. We do the best we can in these instances for sure. 

There is, however, a difference between avoiding the financial responsibilities that go with having pets and in the moment selflessly involving oneself to help a bird or animal in need, jmo.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*This isn't Fred. Fred will never post here again. There were too many personality conflicts and so in order to try to help without mucking things up, he won't post.* 

Uh - if you are not Fred, how do you know so much about Fred and what he would do? What you say can be true of anyone who has the courage of strong convictions.

*Pigeonperson wants only to try to help birds and not get and give arguments.*

Too late...looks like you already gave and got arguments....oops, sorry, I mean DISCUSSIONS...

BTW, I do agree with most of what you said - medicating over or under or uniformed can be deadly. However, imoONLY...there are many different situations that our informed members face when answering and doing their best to help the pigeon(s). With some people, their view of pigeons is COMPLETELY changed for the BETTER through one bird and help from this site. WE ALL DO OUR BEST. 

Personally, I do not believe in "blanket" statements because someone or something always seems to come along and not "conform."


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

"I agree 100% with what you said. However, in some cases, people do not have access to vets like maybe you and I do and they may not have the resources even if a vet is available. In those situations I would rather at least try to help folks than not but always encouraging them to seek a vet if possible."

Lady Tarheel,

I don't have an answer for you. If I believe that the only right way to go is to get tests done, then I painted myself into a corner and I did just that. Of course there are areas that don't have an avian vet that could be entrusted with these precious birds and yes, there are times when it is a very expensive proposition. It is expensive for me too and there are times, I can't afford to go so I become a hypocrite and treat as best as I can. That isn't the right way to go and I don't want you to "Do as I say not as I do." I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else. 

What prompted my post were two problems that appeared on the board. I'm sure there are more. The first is one person saying his bird was puffed up so what medications were needed? The other although not completely on point, is the bird in India. On the one hand, a person doesn't have any medications and on the other hand one person has too many. Going to the wrong kind of vet is as bad as going to no vet at all.

Let me try to give you a real situation; Today, I fed the birds and picked up one that had string tying both legs together. When I sat down with him and had a good look, the string on the left foot didn't cause any damage but on the right, it implicated three toes. One toe was completely black and dead. The middle toe has very deep cuts but may heal without loss and the rear toe was hanging on by a couple of threads. I removed both of these toes revealing raw and open wounds. You can't dress these.. They have to heal dry but there is a real danger of bacteria getting into the wounds now that are basically exposed to the flooring so what can be done to avoid a very real possibility of infection? He has to be on a broad spectrum antibiotic, something that kills staph the most common of all foot infections. That kind of drug kills good gut bacteria too raising the spectre of a potential yeast infection. All antibiotics can cause yeast infections.

The bird is under stress, not only from pain but now, from being taken from his neighborhood and being put into a strange place. That puts pressure on his immunity system so to ease the stress on that system, he was wormed. He was given a canker killer and he was given a drug to reduce the coccidiosis in his system. There was no choice but to clean out his system so he could concentrate on healing but all of these drugs upset the natural fauna and flora of the gut and could therefore cause a yeast infection. 

Is there anything else going on in him? I don't know but giving him these meds certainly masked any symptoms of another illness. That's the problem here. You give medications to clean out the system but you could be masking something else that you don't know about. It could mask an illness or it could cause a new infection like yeast. Ideally, I should have had him tested for everything including psittacosis and yes, as John said, by the time the tests come back, there could be real trouble. I'm making an error here and I know I'm making an error but I can't get to a vet now and these things have to be done to prevent some bad things from happening. So, this is a balancing act, a juggling if you wish but it doesn't make me right. 

If everything goes okay, then all I'm worried about is potential yeast infection but when does a yeast show up? When I have him? A week after release? A month? What do I do now, give him Nystatin as a preventative? Another medication?

He has coccidia because all pigeons do. He has trichomonads because all pigeons do and he has to be wormed because most birds have at least some eggs in them. The middle ground is giving a probiotic and not Nystatin and he's getting that but this is not science. It's guessing no matter how I cut it.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

"Well, if you were Fred I would commend you for being flexible enough to treat pigeons with PMV now.

There is a very good but simple booklet on PMV written by H Vindevogel and J P Duchatel which I would recommend to anyone that gets involved with nursing PMV victims. It is based on veterinary studies. However, it was written before PPMV1 reached the US, so it doesn't offer clarification about the strains you might have there."

Cynthia,
Up until a couple of years ago, I had absolutely no way of isolating PMV birds from the others. It would have been endangering the "healthy ones." I do now and am doing my best to get as many as I can through this illness. I've seen it only once so far this year and it was in a youngster. This was a really bad case and after two days, he was standing in a carrier filled with urine. I was changing the toweling every hour. He died on the third day and it was a bad loss for me. In the street, he flew to me looking for help and I failed to save him. Some losses are a lot harder to cope with than others. 

Thanks for the reference books. I'll look into them.

This isn't Fred but if it were, he would publicly apologize to Cynthia and AZ Whitefeather for anything he did wrong when he was young and stupid.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, more folks here are gaining microscopes. They especially come into their own when testing for trich, coccidial oocysts and worm eggs but if you've got a powerful-enough one there are other neat things that they can do. Last week, I got one in that was obviously ailing but it wasn't any of the usual suspects. When I did the throat swab for trich, though, the thing that I found that bothered me the most was a lot of very motile short-rod bacilli. That means that the little wiener-shaped bacteria (gotta' worry about anything wiener-shaped--even dogs!) were buzzing around the visual field fairly quickly. That could point to a group of bugs that you don't want, like Salmonella or E. coli. Both of those are in the spectrum of activity for Baytril so that's what I went with. The bird's responding to treatment nicely. A few days ago I thought it's chances were pretty slim but it's looking a lot better now, eating just fine and pooping good. They were flat blobs of tar for awhile.

As to antibiotic treatment, many antibiotics are immunosuppressive. That is, they have a tendency to cause the immune system to back off. The upshot of that is that when the bird comes off of them, it is more likely to get something else. For me, this has been very easy to see because I rarely release when the bird seems to have recovered sufficiently. I almost always give it a long period in the house and then out into the loft for further observation over the next month or two. I've seen several have a very difficult time and had to be weaned off the sauce more carefully. It's made me oversensitive to treatments and I've been a bit overzealous on here sometimes because of it. I think I've ticked more than one person off.

Yeah, sometimes we're forced to guess and we guess wrong. We try to do our best, though, and we've certainly saved a few birds on here.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

"Pigeonperson, with all due respect, I think you may be missing part of what I believe is the purpose of this board's Sick or Injured section. I mean, what would be the point if for anyone asking for help we informed them to please check our resources section for a qualified vet in your area we do not diagnose or offer medical advice for sick or injured birds over the Internet. Many of the people who come to this board come because they have a sick bird and need help. For whatever the reasons are, be it lack of money, location, or perhaps fear the bird is in such a condition it will be PTS if taken to a wildlife centre, they have come here and not a vet, so we try our best to help. I don’t necessarily think it’s our duty to question their motivations, or lack there of, but to keep in mind that there is a sick bird at hand and that we may be the bird's best hope at a chance of regaining health again."

Jazaroo,

You're right. So if anyone is going to own a pigeon(s) and can't get to a vet, then isn't it the only proper thing to have certain medications on hand at the ready so that if anything goes wrong, there are some options open for treatment. If there is an injury, shouldn't a person have something on hand to stop bleeding and dress the wound? If there is canker (very common), shouldn't there already be a drug at home? If there is an infection, shouldn't there be some sort of broad spectrum antibiotic at the ready? Not everything can be anticipated but the basic supplies should be there especially if there is no vet available. These things can be purchased at a neighborhood pharmacy or ordered over the internet. They aren't hard to get and the responsible thing to do is to have them readily available. I have no idea how many people here have these supplies but some don't and should.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

"This isn't Fred. Fred will never post here again. There were too many personality conflicts and so in order to try to help without mucking things up, he won't post.
Uh - if you are not Fred, how do you know so much about Fred and what he would do? What you say can be true of anyone who has the courage of strong convictions."

Fred's my brother. He taught me everything I know as little as that is. 

"Pigeonperson wants only to try to help birds and not get and give arguments.
Too late...looks like you already gave and got arguments....oops, sorry, I mean DISCUSSIONS..."

No arguments..just a discussion about how wrong it is to guess although we all do. Unfortunately it's the wrong way to go but we aren't all able to reach the ideal, having a good vet and enough time to get the bird over there.

"BTW, I do agree with most of what you said - medicating over or under or uniformed can be deadly. However, imoONLY...there are many different situations that our informed members face when answering and doing their best to help the pigeon(s). With some people, their view of pigeons is COMPLETELY changed for the BETTER through one bird and help from this site. WE ALL DO OUR BEST."

Agreed

"Personally, I do not believe in "blanket" statements because someone or something always seems to come along and not "conform."

Not sure what you mean but nothing is ever clear as glass. that's for sure.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

Pidgey,
Are you doing gram stains? How do you know that the bacilli you're seeing are gram positive or gram negative? Gram positive, you usually don't have to worry about. That's normal in all animals.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Mmmm, I think Pigeonperson is not a new member. 

Bet he's either Pidgey or Fred acting with Pidgey or Pidgey acting as Fred!

Interesting backpedaling there, Pp...who are you? NOSY MEMBERS ARE VERY CURIOUS...

Actually, your postings bring back STRONG feelings of deja vu...are you a pigeon in hawk's clothing? A hawk in pigeon's clothing?

P.S.

See you posted BEFORE this post...brother??? BROTHER????


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

I'm neither. I'm an old, tired pigeon in pigeon's clothing although I hope this isn't my swan song.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> I'm neither. I'm an old, tired pigeon in pigeon's clothing although I hope this isn't my swan song.


OK, keep posting....we'll let you know...

As an old tired pigeon in pigeon's clothing, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt... 

Are you SURE you and Pidgey aren't related??? You two sound like you could be two peas in the same pod (or from a pigeon's point of view, "twins from the same egg...")


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

OK I AM TOTALLY CONFUSED HERE. 

Who is Fred???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I gram-stain. In fecals, gram (-) is usually bad, but not always. Gram (+) is usually good, but not always. Staphylococcus aureus is positive. Some bacteria are fine in one place but not in another.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Another member from PT historical membership who is also a very knowledgable rehabber like Pigeonperson.

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

I did some "snooping" and found out Fred was _once_ a moderator here. Interesting.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I don't think it matters who Pigeonperson is or their identity. I'm just glad that it's not the person that I thought it was 

Some people like their privacy here and two of our big contributors here know that As long as this person wants to help, I say it's fine with me.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pigeonperson what you said is true about being better prepared:



> You're right. So if anyone is going to own a pigeon(s) and can't get to a vet, then isn't it the only proper thing to have certain medications on hand at the ready so that if anything goes wrong, there are some options open for treatment. If there is an injury, shouldn't a person have something on hand to stop bleeding and dress the wound? If there is canker (very common), shouldn't there already be a drug at home? If there is an infection, shouldn't there be some sort of broad spectrum antibiotic at the ready? Not everything can be anticipated but the basic supplies should be there especially if there is no vet available. These things can be purchased at a neighborhood pharmacy or ordered over the internet. They aren't hard to get and the responsible thing to do is to have them readily available. I have no idea how many people here have these supplies but some don't and should.


However, the reality is for whatever reason many aren't, but the thought of a sick bird trumps any urge I have to lecture and many do realize they should be better prepared in the future.

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jazaroo said:


> .......and many do realize they should be better prepared in the future.
> 
> Ron


Respectfully, I have observed many who don't seem to realize the full responsibility of the lives in their hands.

fp


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

> Respectfully, I have observed many who don't seem to realize the full responsibility of the lives in their hands.


Respectfully as well fp, I agree whole heartedly with this statement, but what's the alternative for those that don't. To tell them, sorry you've come to the well too many times, or try and help. I don't think there is a good answer to this, but if a bird is sick I will try help regardless of my personal thoughts on an owner.

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Don't know what the tone is about, but I'm responsible only for my words.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ok, folks .. it does go full circle here at Pigeon-Talk .. we have had members who came back time and time again reporting problems with their birds .. they still had no meds, no vet, no rehabber or fancier to go to .. yes, you would think they would have become better prepared, but they didn't. Still, the P-T members always went to bat for the birds in the hope that we could save those that we could. 

Then we have the new members who just rescued a seriously ill or injured pigeon .. obviously, they had no chance to be "prepared" .. they just wanted to help the bird. Here again, the P-T members have always rallied and done what could be done to help.

Then we have the long term and experienced members .. I'd like to think that I am one of these .. and .. even we do not know all the answers and cannot and do not save every bird that comes our way.

Then there are the members who started out knowing little and having nothing aside from a bird that needed help .. many of these folks are now prepared and have spent the time and effort to learn from the posts here and now very generously and graciously help others.

I think it behooves each and every one of us on this list to read posts carefully, respond in the most helpful manner possible, and to the best of our individual abilities to offer the very best advice that we can. 

As long as a person is offering well thought out and well founded information and advice and doing it in a civil manner, it kind of doesn't matter if we all know the real identity of that person or not. Sure, it is nicer if we all know who we are talking to, but sometimes that just isn't possible.

Terry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

fp no tone, in fact I agreed with your statement. I was just wondering what the alternatives are.

Ron


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> *This isn't Fred but if it were, he would publicly apologize to Cynthia and AZ Whitefeather for anything he did wrong when he was young and stupid.*


Just curious pigeonperson, what in the world does this have to do with the topic of your thread?  

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I realise I am drifting OT here, but it is still around the subject of diagnosis. 

Maggie. there is a possibility that it isn't "pigeon lung". The CT scan was not typical so the biopsy will probably determine the cause. However only 1 in 100,000 people gets BOOP/COP and as previous discussions have shown "pigeon lung" is fairly common among fanciers and rescuers.

Apart from the impact on my pigeon rescue activities BOOP would be a better outcome as I understand the scarring heals whereas it is permanent in "pigeon fanciers lung" .

Pigeonperson, the first thing they did was to tell me to "get rid" of my pigeons, so I wrote a list of their names (all 80) with partners and told them that I knew the history and even personality of each one. In the end I agreed not to keep pigeons in the house, although I have even cheated on that with John's PMV rescue. 

I do wear something resembling a space suit in the aviary, it was designed specifically for pigeon keepers. As for antigens in the house I will be replacing the carpets, but if they don't come off the wall with a good hoover then they are unlikely to get as far as my lungs. Even so at my hospital appointment I will ask whether it is possible to determine whether the antigens in the house continue to cause damage and whether this can be monitored by X-ray or blood test. I know lots of people move house after developing this condition, but painting sounds like a cheaper alternative.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia, the concept in construction that Pigeonperson is referring to is 'Encapsulation" and is a broad, general fix that is used for certain problems.
Alot of the old linoleum has asbestos in it so instead of hiring a containment
crew, etc. it is an industry standard to contain the asbestos by covering with
a layer of plywood and then installing the new floor covering over that. If the 
antigens are an on-going problem, paint would "encapsulate" and correct
an exposure problem.

I hope that test results do return with some good news for you Cynthia, that would be a much better outcome if you did have BOOP even if the odds are against it.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

My final thought on this thread. No matter who pigeonperson is, I sincerely welcome his expertise and if he wishes to remain anonymous then that is his right and we should respect it and not bombard him with questions as to who he is.

Also for the record, I have copied each and every thread/post made by the member named "Fred" because Fred's love of pigeons and his knowledge of how to care for them impressed me a great deal. I didn't realize he had used several "names" on the forum but feralpigeon delighted me awhile back by adding a few more names he had used that I can refer to.

Sometimes we may not all agree on a diagnosis or method of treatment but each person who contributes adds just that wee bit more information that we can hash out and hopefully use that information to save a precious little soul some day. 

I love this place! 

Cynthia - you remain in my thoughts and prayers and I hope they will soon tell you that you can go back to caring for the birds you so love.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Maggie.

FP. I understand the concept behind the painting but having just recently had the whole house repainted I wouldn't want to go to the expense unless there was evidence that I was inhaling the antigens and they were affecting my lungs. However, if I am still inhaling antigens then repainting would be a cheaper option than moving.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pigeon Person, the only pigeon that I have known to have died of aspergillosis was Reti's Sir Bethany and he was under the care of an avian vet. My reading after the event suggested that it is something that is usiually diagnosed post mortem because diagnosis is so difficult. It surprised me therefore to find that your vet could make a positive diagnosis in so many pigeons by a swab test. I assumed that the vet that you consulted was Linda Pesek as she is known to be compassionate to, and knowledgeable about, PMV. But a google search turned up this article by her:

http://theaviary.com/s1295-61.shtml


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

Cynthia,
I didn't go to Linda Pesek although I have spoken to her in the past. She's an excellent avian vet plus she has pigeons of her own. She knows what she's talking about.

I can't address her article. She's a vet and I'm not. All I can tell you is that the aspergillosis can be so heavy in the system that it can be swabbed and found but Linda is addressing the diffferent other tests that can be used to discover it in the lungs as well as looking for certain antibodies in the blood.

Look, to be completely honest, my house may have been the reason why these birds developed aspergillosis. We smoke and that doesn't make for a healthy environment for any person or bird. We have a lot more stuff floating around at home than you do and I wouldn't guarantee that smoking had nothing to do with this. 

The only thing I can say is that I believe their systems are so weak after PMV, they can be open to anything that comes along and in my case, it was fungal infection that affected them. 

Smoke may be the reason why my experience has been different than yours but how can that be proved or disproved. It's certainly possible.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Quit, for your sake first and foremost. I'm a professional cigarette quitter.
Every ten years since teenage years I will smoke for a few months and then
quit, so I'm very good at it  ... The way I see it, it's gonna be so d*mned hard getting someone to bring me my favorites in the nursing home, so I'm trying to save myself some future aggravation  .

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I don't think that smoking is an issue when it comes to aspergillosis , but it could be lurking in the air conditioning or heating system.

Here in the UK (at least in our houses) we just have radiators for winter and open windows in summer which leads to a drier atmosphere.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks, fp
I wish people could see what I have to go through every day. If that wouldn't dissuade them from smoking what would? The smoke from 9/11 permanently scarred my lungs and so did a lot of years of smoking cigarettes. I had to retire from work a year after 9/11 because of the breathing problems. It's hard to walk one block without losing breathe. I did this to myself and there's no way to reverse it.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

Cynthia,
I don't know about the heating system. I think if it's a dry heat, it's ok but I do know that water tends to accumulate on the bottom of air conditioners and that's not good for any number of reasons and we have three.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Thanks, fp
> I wish people could see what I have to go through every day. If that wouldn't dissuade them from smoking what would? The smoke from 9/11 permanently scarred my lungs and so did a lot of years of smoking cigarettes. I had to retire from work a year after 9/11 because of the breathing problems. It's hard to walk one block without losing breathe. I did this to myself and there's no way to reverse it.


Actually, 9/11 probably did most of it to you, some of the reports I read on the air quality in NYC after the WTC fires were put out was at crisis level for the folks living there. Just so much sulpher and other bad stuff in the air. Don't beat yourself up on this one, it's just not about your choices that have caused the kind of health issues that your describing. It seems that there are lots of folks in NYC (especially first responders) suffering from severe respiratory problems after 9/11.

fp


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