# Greetings!



## Athalie

I found baby collared dove in my garden a week ago and have been keeping him inside in a shoe-box next to the radiator, seems content  I tried feeding him the day I found him wit some dog food soaked in warm water (as it was recomended on a web site) didn't seem to like the process so I decided not to force-feed. The next morning i noticed two collard doves on the ground near where i found the baby so i put him outside and they both came and fed it. I put Bo (I named the baby Bo it means Precious in Chinese) outside from then on every morning and afternoon and did so this morning aswell but the parents didn't fly down to feed him. I've noticed they are gathering some twiggs and taking the to a conifer near the bedroom window. They seem to have lost intrest in the baby and I'm worried. 
What could I do if the parents stop fedding him? I read everything there is to read about feeding baby collared doves but I would only feed him as a last resort.
Exact hand feeding formula is recomended on almost every website as a good feed, should I try giving him that in case the parents don't take intrest?


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## Reti

Absolutely, if the parents don't feed the baby you have to feed him.
Exact formula or any bird pellets for young birds, they all work just fine. I found feeding pellets is much easier and less time consuming. You have to soak them in water so he gets water too and they are easier to swallow.
He also will need to be kept warm.
How old do you think is the baby?

Reti


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## Athalie

Thank you for replying so quickly. I’ve never seen a baby pigeon up-close before so I can only make an estimate on what my limited knowledge of birds allows. I would say it’s a juvenile. Doesn’t look like the parents yet, the dark ring is just starting to show on his neck. Right now he is sleeping, something that he never did during the day. Read on a website that they get dehydrated… he hasn’t been fed today
I feel helpless


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## John_D

Hi,

If he has just started to get the 'collar' then he is probably close to 3 weeks, when they fledge.

I suggest that you mix up 1/2 teaspoon salt, 1/2 TABLEspoon of glucose (or sugar) in 1/2 litre of water, and drop a few drops into the end of his beak, whereupon he should take it back and swallow. If you have a little dropper bottle or small sterile syringe, that is best, otherwise you could try little drops in a teaspoon. This is rehydration mix. You could also try gently guiding his beak (below nostrils) into a small pot of this - he may drink on his own if you do.

If he was fed yesterday he won't be starving, and it is important to ensure he is hydrated so his system will function.

Once he is warm and hydrated, then you will probably have to give him little items of food pushed towards the back of his beak. These could be softened pellets of wholemeal bread, the soaked dog biscuit or frozen (not tinned) sweetcorn and/or peas thawed in hot water for 15-20 mins. You may want to wrap him in a towel to keep him steady whilst feeding.

Once he has some nourishment, then he can be tried with seed in a dish - dove mix or wild bird seed from Pets At Home or other pet store. He will need to learn how to feed himself.

Exact baby bird formula is good, but have had a big problem actually finding it anywhere. Pets At Home used to have it, and may do in your area, but I haven't seen it for a while. If you can get any, let us know, and we can suggest how to give it.

John


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## Athalie

Thank you very much for your advice, I was worried it was starving. I’ve been keeping an eye out for the parents. Yesterday they fed him at around the same time so they might still come back. My fiancé says I got too attached to him, but I couldn’t help it, he’s such a cutie  Would it be ok if I posted a picture of him? 
Thank you again for the advice, it means a lot


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## Reti

Sure, post a pic of him. We love pics.
Hopefully the parents will feed him but sounds like you might have to supplement his feedings anyways. He needs to be fed more often than once a day. At this stage they need food at least three times a day.

Reti


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## Athalie

Both parents are back now, they’re just sitting in the tree grooming each other. I put Bo outside for about 10 minutes, it walked around for a bit they didn’t take notice of him at all. I will give him some of that hydrating mix and some food after that. I don’t want to leave him outside for very long because it’s very cold. Even after 10 minutes his tiny feet feel very cold when I hold him. He is sleeping a lot now he was very lively ‘till this morning. Hope he’ll be better after I feed him.
Thank you again for helping.
Here’s the little cutie


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## Athalie

I’ve just fed him on a tiny bit of wholemeal bread soaked in warm water, he swallowed it and seemed happy about it. I just hate having to force his little beak open  He had some of that hydrating mix, couldn’t tell how much though. He doesn’t look like he’s well at all, constantly asleep, the only time he opens its eyes is if I touch him or I put him outside. I read on a website that it is best to mimic the natural way they feed, which is that the baby puts its beak into the parent’s mouth and not the other way around. I was suggested that it’s best to use a rubber glove with its pinkie-finger cut open so that the baby’s beak can fit inside. The problem is that all these sites say they are using Exact feeding formula. I have no clue where to find some on a Sunday afternoon in England. Maybe baby food would do… Hope the bread didn’t do more harm the good


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## Reti

Bread isn't the best choise, you can buy Gerber's baby cereal, that would work for now.
Don't worry too much about opening his beak and feeding him, just feed him cause it seems like he needs it. He is a sweet baby, great pic, only thing, he doesn't look too good.
Do you have him on a heating pad? He needs warmth, hydration and food. If that won't make him feel better than you have some illness going on, but try first to hydrate him and feed him and warm him up.

Reti


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## Athalie

I don’t have a heating-pad, bat he is right next to the hot radiator and feels pretty warm when I touch him. I was very worried that he doesn’t look good, he hasn’t been like this since I had him. He was always very lively and constantly moving about. Since this morning all he does is sleep when he is in the box but when I take him out he is back to normal. Will a bit a dog biscuits do ‘till tomorrow? The pet shop only opens tomorrow at 9 and the supermarket’s closed too cause it’s Sunday  The only cereal I have that might suit him is Wheatabix. I didn’t think I’d have to feed him because his parents always did it. I would have prepared if I knew  I will do my best to keep him warm. I have an infra-red lamp maybe that will do?


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## Feefo

Hi Athalie,

Does he walk about at all? Doves are very prone to metabolic bone disease, caused by a lack of calcium in their diet, so if he has weak legs and/ or a "rubbery" beak a calcium supplement can help.

I have a baby dove at the moment (I will post pictures later for comparison...must walk the dogs first) and I have been deeding him Nutra Bird (or Nutribird), he has been producing wonderful poops on that. But a good substitute is Ready Breck, mixed into a smooth paste with warm water. I have PM;d Phil yo ask him to go through how you can persuade your dove to feed the natural way. Mine is taking abot 60 ml a day. 

Little doves are quick to learn how to feed themselves, so if you get canary food or even just millet to start with he should pick it up eventually to test it in his beak. This soon leads to self feeding.

The sleeping all the time is not natural. Keep him warm on a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel and draught free. 

Mine is in the bath at the moment, I have put towels along the bottom and a cat basket at one end. He is already flying up to the top of the cat basket.

Cynthia


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## Athalie

Yes, he is walking about and seems lively when I take him out of his box. He has jumped out of its box too, quite a few times and flew off the bed while I was cleaning his box  he was doing great ‘till this morning  His beak feels a bit soft but I wouldn’t say rubbery – he does wobble a bit when he’s walking. Just wish I’d know how to help  gave some more hydrating mix, I’ll go and get a hot water bottle. 
I named him Bo… don’t even know if it’s a boy or girl  I’d do anything to help.


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## Athalie

Another thing I’ve noticed is that he doesn’t poop as often as the first 4 days. Yesterday I only had to clean him twice and today only once ‘till now. He used to poop every 2, 3 hours. Where can I get that Nutra Bird? Feel really dumb and helpless


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## pdpbison

Hi Athelie, 




Sounds like your Dove is ill, and were he not showing sufficient interest to the invitations of his parents to feed him, they would leave him be and stop feeding him.

If all were well, he would have been making about 2 poops an hour originally, and, if adequately fed, it would be that way still.


When you say you had to 'clean' him after he pooped, would you give more details?


If they are healthy, their poops merely fall away and there is nothing to clean on the Bird.


So, anyway, it sounds like there are three things going on here - 


1 ) He was getting sick, and he has gotten sicker


2) Since his parents had stopped feeding him, he has been either starving or very close to it


3) He is almost certainly very seriously dehydrated ( he would normally drink or be given by his parents, probably 1/3 of a Tea Cup worth of Water a day, maybe more ) 


When they are sick their appetite and interest in eating can diminish.


My guess is, that at this point, he will need to be evaluated with a view to administer appropriate medications, and, he would likely require to be tube-fed, thin liquid meals, if possibly having half-a-day of rehydrating proceedures of tube fed electrolytes.


If you want to see if he will drink, try this - 


In a Tea Cup, mix a good pinch of common table Salt, with one of Sugar, and dissolve in tepid Water.

Make it so the Water is just about your own body temperature.


Offer the Cup of Water to him by having it set in some stable way in front of him and low enough for his Beak to be gently guided into it.


You can moisten your finger tips in it, and, very softly massage his Beak with your moist warm fingertips, say, betwen the pad of your thumb and index finger, and softly massage it back where it meets his face.

This might take several trys ( it might take ten or twelve tries) but it should work to convery to him that you are willing to feed/water him, for him to drink...so, the 'soft massage' gesture, and, also, gently guiding his Beak into the Water by either gently tilting his head into it, or, by raising the Cup so his Beak goes into it.


His poops, and or the poops you had to clean him of, were they of a 'yellowish' cast or color? LIke a thin yellow watercolor paint?



Where are you located?



Phil
l v


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## Athalie

When I said I cleaned him I meant I whipped his feathers because he has been sitting on the poop. Usually I cleaned his box the whipped his feathers wits a bit of tissue paper. The colour of his poop was dark green with white bits, only once I saw yellowish runny one yesterday afternoon. I tried a same sort of hydrating mix he drank a bit when I put it under it beak then I put a few drops of it in his beak just now. 
He seemed very eager to feed, kept knocking the parent over when they flew down to him. He didn’t seem ill till this morning. He was active and alert. I’d be heartbroken if I didn’t do all can for him. Thank you very much for your help.
I live in Middleton Manchester.


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## Reti

If he has no poops he is starving. Please feed him.

Reti


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## Athalie

I gave him some wholemeal bread soaked in water I don’t know what else I could give him. Supermarkets are not open the shop across the road doesn’t have that baby cereal. If I had something to feed him I would but if bread isn’t ok I don’t know what else to give him. I’ll try dog food soaked in water.


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## Feefo

Hi Athalie,

I checked and it is "Nutribird" but I think that you can only get it from Morley Aviaries by post. As he is old enough to fly he should be OK on Ready brek, I am feeding that to one of my own rescues and he is doing well. THat was recommended to me by Helen of wild-life-line in Blackburn who is a moderator of this forum.

Dove poops should ideally be firm, they dry into nice solid bits that you can sweep up.

Dip his beak regularly into the rehydrating solution. The correct proportions for that are 1 pint warm water, mixed with 1/2 tablespoon glucose, honey or sugar and 1/2 teaspoon of salt. Encourage him to drink as much as possible.

If you feed him wholemeal bread dipped in water then try to give him at least 1/2 a slice (with crusts removed) three times a day. 

I have some antibiotics that I can send off to you tomorrow if necessary...please PM me if I can help. 

You could take it to the Three Owls Sanctuary if it doesn't pull itself together, but I feel that sometimes a baby profits from the amount of attention that it receives from a single rescuer. We also have a wonderful member in Salford that could have a look at him, she would not be able to take him in as she has pigeon lung disease.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

...have a towell on your Lap...


Set the Dove on the Towell, and cover her with a smaller towell so just her Head is almost visable...and so she is sort of tucked in at the sides.


Get a very small Glass, like a Shot Glass, and fill it with small, whole Seeds.


Hold the Glass low and in front of her, and, 'peck' at the Seeds with a crook'd index finger, while you other hand gently is laid on the towell which is covering her.


And, see if you can inspire her to be pecking.


She is old enough TO be doing so, or to be learning to do so.



You can gently tap the end of her Beak with a Seed also, showing it to her.


Try that...



See - 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=24110


Along with the links it contains which will show some images 



Phil
l v


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## Feefo

Wholemeal bread is OK, just as long as it isn't fresh as that will have a high yeast content. I have raised healthy babies on that dipped in Complan and the Gower Biird Hospital use it to hand raise baby wood pigeons.

I found Ready Brek among the cereals at the One Stop convenience store, not among the baby food. Soaked bran flakes or any other sugar free cereal would be fine too. London Wildcare use porridge oats soaked in warm water.

I don't know if puppy food might not be too rich for a collared dove, they don't have the varied diet of feral pigeons, they tend to stick to seeds.

Cynthia


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## Athalie

I think I solved the problem. I have some extra-fine cornmeal and some grits (very finely ground whole grain) I made him a runny porridge-like pap from it. I boiled them in the hydrating fluid and mixed a pinch of dog food pure in it as well. I also took apart a thick pen and poured the pap in there, he ate two pen-fulls, have no idea how many milliliters though  He also drank a lot of the hydrating fluid, seems very lively and content now. I warmed up a gel pack in microwawe and put it under his fleece blanket. Ill keep giving him the hydrating mix. He is already pecking at my fingers.
Thank you for the help. I will let you know a bit later how he gets on


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## pdpbison

"Small...whole...Seeds"


Such as Finch Seed, Canary Seed


Balled 'Bread' will hydrate in the Crop, expand, and can too easily glog and block the passage to the Stomach and then there is a very serious problem to add to whatever else already is a problem.


Balled Bread is what Plumbers use to block Water from seeping into Copper Pipes they wish to solder...and, it will eventually dissolve in the Pipes, long after it would have killed a Bird. Since for one thing it will be subject to 140 pounds per suare inch Watewr Pressure once the Water is turned back on, and a Dove or other Bird does not have THAT kind of 'pressure' to shove it through.


"SMALL...whole...Seeds" should not be such a problem to obtain, especially as so many Grocers carry them in the 'pet' supply pet food isles.

I am confident this Dove will "peck' and begin to self feed, if only one were to bother gently working with them for a little while, and, in terms the Dove would find comfortable, and and with "SEEDS" which the Dove will understand.




...sigh...


Love, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

Athalie said:


> I think I solved the problem. I have some extra-fine cornmeal and some grits (very finely ground whole grain) I made him a runny porridge-like pap from it. I boiled them in the hydrating fluid and mixed a pinch of dog food pure in it as well. I also took apart a thick pen and poured the pap in there, he ate two pen-fulls, have no idea how many milliliters though  He also drank a lot of the hydrating fluid, seems very lively and content now. I warmed up a gel pack in microwawe and put it under his fleece blanket. Ill keep giving him the hydrating mix. He is already pecking at my fingers.
> Thank you for the help. I will let you know a bit later how he gets on




This is no good, for many reasons.


No 'cooked' food of any kind.

No 'meat' or meat derived things.

Just go to a Grocery Store, and get some Finch or Canary Seed.

DO NOT COOK IT...leave it alone.


Small, whole, clean,. simple, RAW Bird Seeds.


Absolutely NEVER microwave anything for any Bird.


You can not go making up a lot of things even with good intentions, if you want to save this Dove...you will kill it and reliably, trying to feed or force feed it stuff like that.

Things need to be 'right' or he is not going to last long enough for more experients like that.


"Seeds"...small, whole Seeds, like Finch Seed, Canary Seed.


Last call from me on this.


IF it is night time there and you really do have no other recourse, then - 


LEAVE IT RAW AND DO NOT "COOK" IT, but...


Combine some Corn Meal and other RAW ground Grains but no 'flour'...( Grits are Corn Meal which has been treated with Lye, and would be redundant to add TO Corn Meal) 

Add Water...stirr...let it sit a half hour...have it in a Tea Cup.

If you have any NON MEAT 'Dog Bisquits, or "GRAIN" based 'Kibble' ( DRY FOOD ) crush into a powder, and combine THAT with the Corn Meal...


Warm the Tea Cup in a Pan of hot water, and then see if she will eat it.


No "microwave"...use a Pan of Hot Water.

This would be JUST barely tolerable, but would be better than nothing.


Get some proper "Seeds" as soon as possible.



Best wishes...!


...sigh...


Phil
l v


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## Feefo

Excellent thinking!!!! A teaspoon is 5ml so you can use that for comparison, he should be fed until the crop is squishy like a 3/4 inflated balloon.

BTW bread soaked in water and balled bread are completely different things, but Les swears by balled bread which he rolls in vitamins or small seeds as required...I was under the impression that was something you had recommended to him, Phil. Fortunately digestive systems and plumbing are not very similar. I know that my sink can't cope with pigeon peas, specially when they become stuck and sprout but a pigeon is able to digest them.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Phil, the microwave was used to warm a gel pack for the pigeon to lie on, not to eat. And the small shops that are allowed to be open at this time on a Sunday certainly don't stock canary or finch seed.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Hi Cynthia,



I have been brought too many dieing Babys which naive first timers fed all this kind of crap to as well as other things.


It breaks my heart.


Maybe 'Les' makes TINY soft lightly compressed 'bread balls', the sie of a Bee-Bee, and meanwhile, no one ever bothers saying to a first timer not to make them the size of Marbles, not to over-compress them, or whatever.


So sure, have 'Les' write a fifteen page treatise on how NOT to do it, and then maybe we will have something...something which no one will read anyway since it would be past their attention span.



No, never, ever have I recomended 'Bread' in any form.


Graham Crackers, Ritz Crackers, true Grain-Based Dog Bisquits or Kibbles, "Hot" types of Breakfast Cereal but which one would NOT 'Cook' for the Bird...

"Malto Meal"...( Plain, not chocolate ) 

Plain "Corn Meal"...

"Cream of Wheat"

These will do very well in a pinch...crushed into Powder if need be, added together, made into a thin gruel...served "tepid" and NOT "Microwaved".


And on their best day, they will have one fourth the "real" Nutrition of plain, wholesome, small, whole "Seeds".



Information MUST be detailed or else it will NOT be understood.


People, Vets, whoever, recommend 'Dog Food'...


So, fisrt timers then stuff Babys with force with CANNED 'meat', Canned Dog or Cat 'food' and kill the Baby.


We can not count on our own privately held and never assayed understandings, to be imparted by vague or casual mentions about general KINDS of names of things, when there is too much room for catastrophic error.


Cooking the food is another example...


Everyone assumes they are supposed to cook the formula, then the cooked formula makes an impervious 'slug' which does not dissplve or move through, and the Bird dies.

NO COOKING OF FORMULA!!!!!



And on, and on, and on...


I try and give real, proven, integrated information, and it is like Water on a Ducks back.



Why listen when one can just go off inventing things out of NO knowledge, no experiencve and no understanding !!!!


Well, the difference is, a Dead Bird, or, one who one maganes to bring along so it lives.


That...is the 'difference'...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

cyro51 said:


> Phil, the microwave was used to warm a gel pack for the pigeon to lie on, not to eat. And the small shops that are allowed to be open at this time on a Sunday certainly don't stock canary or finch seed.
> 
> Cynthia



Okay...



But meanwhile, at least I hope I covered THAT aspect so IT is understood!!!


Lol...


Phil

l v


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## Athalie

I am not a naïve first timer, I am a person who is trying to help. If I am doing something wrong is because, like you have pointed it out, I have no knowledge and even less information about how to feed a baby collared dove. I can be bothered taking care of it, in fact I sit at the window from 7 am till 6 pm watching for the parents to come and feed it because I know I have no clue about what to do. I’ve read everything that was available on the internet but every single site I went on recommended either dog-food or Exact hand feeding formula, which by the way is not available in shops in England anywhere. I am not stupid, I know birds can’t have tinned dog food, I would never give it any, or force feed it for that matter. 
I can only say that I have done my best and that the baby seems better then when I found it. I did not cook the cornmeal I mixed it up in hot water, as for blocking, the only thing that ‘pap’ would block is the eye of the needle. 
I will buy pigeon seeds first thing in the morning and will take the time, as I have done till now, to get him used to it. I have a limited amount of information and even that is so varied it seems to contradict itself. I will let the behaviour of the bird be my guide I know him enough to judge if he doesn’t like something. 
Till I get the seeds tomorrow I will continue giving him the hydrating mix just in case the drain clogs up
Thank everyone who offered to help I will make sure to let you know how Bo gets along.


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## Dezirrae

Hi Athalie  Believe me - you HAVE come to the right place for advice AND support. I've never rescued a bird - let alone a baby bird, so I can only let you know that I am sending positive thoughts and saying some prayers for your little one. Simply judging from the times of your posts I can tell that you are dedicated to helping pull this little one through such a tough time in his/her life. Bless you for being thoughtful enough to take care of him/her and for doing all the research and reaching out that you are


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## John_D

Phil

You have been warned many times

One more nasty little squeak out of you and you are

OFF THIS FORUM PERMANENTLY

This is it!

John


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## pdpbison

Athalie said:


> I am not a naïve first timer, I am a person who is trying to help. If I am doing something wrong is because, like you have pointed it out, I have no knowledge and even less information about how to feed a baby collared dove.




Thank you Athalie, 


I am very sorry there were some misunderstandings here.

Please try and understand, that I am interested in helping you care for this Dove, and were I not interested in that, I would not have posted the several Posts in which I was providing information for you.


Please try and understand how very difficult it is to be on this side of the issue, when reliably, people DO make mistakes which injure or kill the Bird, and I am trying to head off such mistakes by providing useful and real information.


Your Dove looks 'sick' or depleted to me, and my sense of it was that you do not have a lot of margain for error left.



I have no way of second guessing what someone is doing, or not doing, other than to read what they say they are doing, and to offer info on what to do, and how to do it...and, also, on what hbot to do.


Please accept my apology, I did not mean to offend you..!




> I can be bothered taking care of it, in fact I sit at the window from 7 am till 6 pm watching for the parents to come and feed it because I know I have no clue about what to do.




And, I have been offering information to you, about what to do.

And, information on what not to do, also.




> I’ve read everything that was available on the internet but every single site I went on recommended either dog-food or Exact hand feeding formula, which by the way is not available in shops in England anywhere. I am not stupid, I know birds can’t have tinned dog food, I would never give it any, or force feed it for that matter.




I am glad.


Many people however, do force feed them 'tinned' Dog Food, or other 'wrong' things, many peo[ple 'cook' some version they concoct of 'formula'...and these are educated, caring people...they are not "stupid" people...they had simply heard that IS what one does, so, they do it...

It happens all the time...

It happens in these threads here, and aside from me, virtually no one ever asks them WHAT they are actually doing, nor allows the person to know what NOT to do, virtually no one ever realizes that 'details' matter, review matters...the person says " I am feeding him some Dog Food and he seems a lot better now!" or, " I mixed some Dog Food and some Cereal and cooked some formula and fed it to him, and..." and everyone offeres cuddos and positive emotional support things, and no one realizes the mistake which IS happenning. Then the Bird dies, and everyone offers condolances on how much the person cared.


Okay, meanwhile, no real details were covered, and the gestures failed for want of real information and for want of understanding or clearification, "details" matter.


Same with 'microwaving' formula...and scalded Crops or Esophaguses.

Same with lots of things which enter into all this.

So, please forgive me, I did not mean to offend you...


I was wanting to 'inform' you, and to review in over-view, generally, how information is important in order to foster good decisions and practices, and to avoid mistakes.




> I can only say that I have done my best and that the baby seems better then when I found it. I did not cook the cornmeal I mixed it up in hot water, as for blocking, the only thing that ‘pap’ would block is the eye of the needle.


Well, I do not know then where the 'cooking' thing came from, I thought you were being quoted as having 'cooked' it...and as having mixed it with 'dog food'.


Sorry...





> I will buy pigeon seeds first thing in the morning and will take the time, as I have done till now, to get him used to it. I have a limited amount of information and even that is so varied it seems to contradict itself.



Well...at no point have I or anyone else recommended you get 'Pigeon Seed'...so hmmmmm...


You see?

I Do mean this kindly!!! Please, accept it kindly!

But pause here a moment and see what has happenned, because this IS what "happens", all the time, relliably, and someties disasterously, and no one notices...even as we deal with trying to make all these apologies about how difficult it IS to comunicate, you say 'Pigeon Seeds'...


No matter how simple and clear I might make something, we both may find it has not been understood.

No, not 'Pigeon Seeds', which typically are a Mix of small and large Seeds.


But...


"Small, Whole Seeds"...such as Finch Seed, Canary Seed...these would be safest and easiest for her, and are what a Dove or young Pigeon would find easiest and ost inviting, for them to learn to peck.







> will let the behaviour of the bird be my guide I know him enough to judge if he doesn’t like something.


Well, his 'behavior' is that of a Sick or fading Dove, who is either ill, or very faished, or both.


How you wish to evaluate this on no or small prior experience, I am not sure, but if he were well, he would be far too active for you to even catch, let alone, handle.


So, my sense of it is that he is in some fairly frail shape, and, when they are in that shape, they do not have much margain for error as far as what is fed to them.




> Till I get the seeds tomorrow I will continue giving him the hydrating mix just in case the drain clogs up
> Thank everyone who offered to help I will make sure to let you know how Bo gets along.



Very good.



Again, I am very sorry if my speaking in general terms about the ways these situations DO reliably go 'wrong', if that offended you or you took it personally.


Please forgive me.

I do not think you are 'stupid'...I merely wished to allow you information on which correct decisions could be made for the well being of the Bird, and for your own emotional well being to see him through this.

I appreciate the time and care you are showing this Dove,and I wish you well...!


Good luck..!


Best wishes, 


Phil
l v


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## Athalie

I am truly sorry if I got you in trouble, I know you were only trying to help, but then, so was I. I am unspeakably grateful for the advice you gave, I would never do anything to harm that bird, he is, as his name says Precious (Bo) to me and so is every living creature. I have turned my bedroom into a sauna to keep the bird close by, I padded the windows with cushions to make sure there’s no draft, I can’t even remember if I ate anything today, I spent all my time in front of the computer waiting for advice. I said in my first posting that I will only force-feed as a very last resort, only did it twice since I had him, thank God I found a better way that suited him. I am very sorry if I didn’t express myself as clear as possible, I am not English-born, I am Hungarian living in the UK and when I said I “cooked” the pap I meant I prepared it. My grandparents own a farm, I grew up there and they always gave baby chicks warm, damp cornmeal as a boost in the morning, that’s why I thought it might help the bird. I made it as runny as possible because he’s already dehydrated so he needs as much moisture as he can get. 
He is very lively now, has had a few sips of hydrating mix every 10 minutes, he doesn’t seem to want any more so I won’t force him. I will keep checking on him every 2 hours, make sure he’s ok.
My most sincere apologies for getting you in trouble, I appreciate your advice, I’m sure you only want the best for the baby. I will not feed it anything other then Finch seeds or Canary seeds and hydrating fluid. I will also keep an eye out for the parents tomorrow they might feed him at least once a day.

P.S. Thank you senior bird Dezirrae for your prayers, they are very welcome, I will send one back to you 

Best wishes and many thanks
Bernadette


----------



## pdpbison

Athalie said:


> I think I solved the problem. I have some extra-fine cornmeal and some grits (very finely ground whole grain) I made him a runny porridge-like pap from it. I boiled them in the hydrating fluid and mixed a pinch of dog food pure in it as well. I also took apart a thick pen and poured the pap in there, he ate two pen-fulls, have no idea how many milliliters though  He also drank a lot of the hydrating fluid, seems very lively and content now. I warmed up a gel pack in microwawe and put it under his fleece blanket. Ill keep giving him the hydrating mix. He is already pecking at my fingers.
> Thank you for the help. I will let you know a bit later how he gets on



Hi Athalie, 



I guess this is what led me to suppose you had 'cooked' the formula.


And, I had wanted you to also know not to do so.


Best wishes, 


Phil 
l v


----------



## Athalie

I post these pictures so you could judge how he looks. His spirits sure have improved, especially since he’s drinking the hydrating formula. He had a few more sips of it just now and is moving about his box trying to fly out. I will turn the light off now but will set my clock to check on him every two hours. I will not give him any seeds tomorrow until I posted a picture of them, just to make sure  I know just like me many people mean well and it must be extremely hard for someone who is experienced not to get upset or angry at some of the silly things they do. It is very hard for me too when family members insist on stroking it, guess I am a bit protective, that’s why I chose to keep him close by. 
Thank you again for everything, I won’t feed is anything other than finch seed or canary seed unless I have instructions to do. I am still hoping that the parents will take interest.
Good night, best wishes


----------



## Pidgey

You can feed him a standard dove mix, which might contain wheat, milo, dried peas (various kinds), safflower seeds, hemp seeds, barley, millet, small corn (popcorn) and any of many other types of seeds and grains. He's easily old enough to digest that. He ought to be eating about 10 to 15% of his weight per meal in seeds and liquid. You don't want him drinking too much liquid since it doesn't have all the necessary stuff in it. They will sometimes drink too much, thinking that that's all they need to eat and then not be getting enough.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Bernadette, 



The 'Lap Towell Cave' ( I posted a link to images of it in an earlier Post ) would be a very nice method for liesured warmth, and togetherness, while allowing incidental feedings and hydration sippings, and so on, and general comfort and assurance for him, and, soon, for the little 'Shot Glass' of small whole Seeds for him to be pecking.


If for now, he likes the 'warmed' Corn Meal gruel, by all means, keep offering it in small meals, and, his system will be processing the food, and, he should start making some poops for you to count, examine, and be glad for.




Yellow liquid or yellow Urates, can signal the presence of illness, so if you see any, or if they occur steadily, please let us know.

'Canker' is very common in Dives of all kinds, and will see the youngster become 'grounded' after fledging, and or see his parents decide not to feed him even, if they sense he is ill.


And Canker in many occasions, can show 'yellowish' Urates.





When healthy, the poop will usually be brown, or tan, or brownish-green, or tan-green, and curled like thin rope more or less into a little ball, usually about the size all tolled, of a medium size 'Raisen'...and, the Urates will be a White 'paste', on top.


If you you have any Bulgar Wheat or Oat Groats, you could try those to see if she might peck them...even cutting the Oat Groats in thirds with a Knife or Scissors. Oat Groats especially are 'good' Seeds for Doves and Pigeons.

If you have these but she is not interested to peck them yet, you could grind some up and add them to the Corn Meal.





Just so we all know, to review the reasoning of my reminder - the danger of Cooked grains, is that the Glutens in them will tend to make for a rather adhering mass once they have sat a while...

When we add water to uncooked ground grains, we get a sort of loose porriage, which even when it sits, and absorbs water, is easily mixed or dissolved by light stirring.


If the same things are cooked, they can adhere into a mass which when it sits, will not dissolve eaily even when stirred or when more Water is added.

This can happen also with raw grains which are ground TOO fine...and thuis is the 'danger' with store bought 'formulas' which everyone always recommends.

Many care givers get into trouble with these stroe bought powders, and need to have a lot of details explained, in order to avoid the dangers or problems.


And, this is what can happen then in their Crop then...the mass of adhering to itself stuff, sits there in the Crop, even if it was 'thin' when fed to them, it looses a lot of it's Water in the Crop, thickens, stiffens, and becomes a conforming 'slug' which does not dissolve, and which does not pass...even when we give the Bird more Water.

It spoils there, in a day or so less, being 'warm' and moist, with background Yeasts and other Organisms feeding on it, which make toxins for the Bird's system to deal with, sickening the Bird, and or also begin to infect the Crop itself on the inside, and the Bird then is in very serious and likely fatal trouble unless the situation is remediated, and few Vets would know about this to realize it is an issue, or, to know it is happenning to be able to do anything about it.

We have a thread now in a different section, where that is probably what happenned, but with feeding too fine a grind of store bought formula 'powder' mix, and other incidental complications...with a couple Babys.

This makes me sad of course, but I have to accept that when somone really does resent or reject me asking, it is best for me just to leave it alone then.


I know you want the information, and have from the beginning, and I know you are interested to learn.

So, we are fine and having fun and we got over our difficulties easily..!



We have all seen that Pot of Oatmeal or other 'Cooked Cereal' which was not finished from Breakfast, and how 'easy' ( NOT! ) it is to dissolve it then in the sink, yes?


Lol...


Yes...


So, we see from that, how 'cooking' ground or fine Grains can make for a glutinous, self adhering 'mass'...which will resist dissolving later...


So...


I like to remind EVERYONE here about that, since it is important...and I am the self-appointed 'Broken Record' here for these 'remindings'.



Lol...


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> You can feed him a standard dove mix, which might contain wheat, milo, dried peas (various kinds), safflower seeds, hemp seeds, barley, millet, small corn (popcorn) and any of many other types of seeds and grains. He's easily old enough to digest that. He ought to be eating about 10 to 15% of his weight per meal in seeds and liquid. You don't want him drinking too much liquid since it doesn't have all the necessary stuff in it. They will sometimes drink too much, thinking that that's all they need to eat and then not be getting enough.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey, 



He is coming off a fast...likely has never self fed...and might have Canker or other as yet semi-mild illness.


No young Dove I have ever had would eat anything BUT the smallest Seeds, untill much older.

The only exception being the "White Safflower" Seeds, which they seem to manage well with and elect along with the other 'tiny' Seeds.


Hence, my wishing to allow things to be as SURE as possible, I have suggested "Small, Whole Seeds" such as typical Finch or Canary seed mixes.

These are also more SURE to pass a possibly inflamed or iffy digestive system, Crop passage to Stomach, and so on, pending how things go.

A week of that, and if all seems well, then, sure, offer Bigger Seeds, and see how he does with those.


That is what I would do...and that is what I do 'do'...


Make sense?

Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey

The stuff that we put in our finch feeders is straight thistle seed. And a lot of the canary seed that I've seen had an awful lot of millet in it, which (I've always heard) doesn't have a lot of food value in it. Cynthia and John have mentioned dove mixes several times and I've no idea what the composition of stuff like that's going to be in the UK. I figure that any standard dove mix there will be primarily smaller seeds anyhow. If the bird wants to pick up a pea then so be it--it can certainly swallow it if it wants to.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

He looks so much better in the last pics. Great job.
Keep on doing what you're doing.

Reti


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## Athalie

Good morning everyone! I have never been so awake yet I haven’t slept at all  kept shining the light from the mobile phone on the poor thing to check if he’s ok  He pooped three times between 12 and 7 this morning, once at 1,38 , it was curled up about the size of the tip of my thumb with a dark-green and white colour. He smeared it though trotting about the box so I, the second tome ha passed one at quarter to 4, it was slightly runny, although he might have smeared it again, I found it like that. The third one I can’t tell when it happened, found it not long ago and it was nice and dried up but again smeared  I tried putting tissue paper in the box but he can’t seem to get comfortable on it. I didn’t give him any hydrating mix during last night, I prepared some now, waiting for it to cool down. I saw one of the parents flying away, might be going for food. Should I put the baby outside this morning in case the parents take interest? It seems very cold…
The pet shop only opens at 9, the nearest one is about an hours walk, I can’t drive so if I can’t find the finch or canary seeds there I will have to give him a tiny bit of the cornmeal. I will buy some oat grots and burglar wheat, there is a bio-shop on the way to the pet store, just in case. 
I noticed some positive changes, he is alert, moving about his box, even trying to hop out  Think it might be a bit cold, but he doesn’t like to be covered with anything so for now I will let him be. He hasn’t slept since I fed him that gruel and gave him the hydrating mix so I guess that is better than constantly sleeping.
I will post pictures of the seeds I get as soon as I get back. Hopefully I can find the ones that were recommended. 
Thank everyone for the help, I am delighted that he looks better


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## pdpbison

Hi Athalie,



Sounds good all round...!


If you feel he would not bolt or get away if feeling an impetuous burst...go ahead and see if his Parents will feed him..!


So much the better of course, if they do!

Once he IS feeling better, and is getting the nourishent he needs and catches up to himself, he WILL be a "handfull" believe me..!


Use a white or light color Towell to keep him on, if he will abide it...you can see the poops easily, as well as it will be soft and warm for his Feet.



Till next...!


Best wishes,


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Athalie, 



Some 'Dove' storys and images here - 


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/young-dove---july-1/


&


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/december-1st-dove/



If you click on the first Image, it enlarges and also has Captions about what is being shown.



Here is how we can feed them when they are Babys or even ones of your's age, so long as we invite them correctly, and prepare foods they will enjoy, but it is a LOT if info on how to do all this far as making the foods and so on, and Doves especially ( or the Mourning Doves especially, ) will NOT eat foods they do not enjoy, so, it has to be right in their terms, or it is a no-go with them - 


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


Anyway, thought you might enjoy these, and, you can hold your Dove up to the Computer for him to see these also..! He might like them!


Lol...


Mine never seem to pay one iota of attention to anything on my Computer though...even when I try and show them things of interest...



Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## Feefo

Hi Athalie,

I am so glad that he is feeling better. I haven't seen a "dove mix" for years, we use small seeds found in KT conditioning mix or a treat mix that John buys at Gem supplement. The smaller seeds found in wild bird mix will be fine.

I have been a member of this forum for 6 years mnow, I have had to hand raised collared doves for several years and have not had a single one develop slow crop or die of other causes. So please believe me, I am not inclined to give you duff or dangerous information on how to look after Bo. I know how precious dovies are.

I feed formula (Kaytee Exact or Nutribird) or Ready Brek, which most experienced people do. White bread can form a bolus if fed to dry or in too great a quantity, wholemeal bread is an good emergency food. As I said before, Nooti who is a lot more experienced in rescuing collared doves than most of us recommended Ready Brek, and my current little dove is on that, is lively and passing good poops.

Another good "hand feeding food" that you must have heard of is Chick Crumbs, soaked for half and hour in hot (not boiling) water, liquidised and sieved.

This is the thread about my latest dove, Forget-me-Not: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=25065&referrerid=560

As you will see they are roughly the same age. They develop very quickly.

To help him develop waterproof feathering you can mist him with warm water every two or three days.

Cynthia


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## Athalie

Hello everybody! These are the seeds I found at the pet shop, the man there said the black ones are for finches, don’t know… . I posted the pictures just to be sure. He is doing very well now, grooming himself and looking about. Gave him some hydrating mix just before I left and just a tiny bit of very runny cornmeal gruel on the tip of my index finger. I tried putting him outside but the mum/dad wouldn’t take notice. Had to chase him to bring him in  he seems to like it outside. Wish it was warmer … Oh well, it’s nice to have him around  I will try the dove cave method Phil recommended with the canary seeds, I wont use the black ones until I’m sure it’s ok.
I will try and get Ready Brek or chick crumbs for him in case he doesn’t like the seeds. I will keep writing how he is. 
Thank you very much for your help.


----------



## Athalie

I’m trying to upload the pictures of the seeds but it keeps saying upload error. They are finch and canary seeds, I mixed them together in a small glass tea light holder (a bit shorter than the shot glass). I put him on my lap on a fluffy towel and covered him with a small face towel, ha pecked at them immediately but only swallowed two and played about with the rest. I keep offering it to him but he doesn’t seem to want any more. I will give him a tiny bit more of the cornmeal gruel he gobbles that up, guess he likes it. Does he need water or is the hydrating mix enough?


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## John_D

Hi,

No reason why he can't have just plain water now, as he will have recovered from any dehydration if he was suffering from it. Not surprised he is a bit tentative about the seeds, as he is so young and would only just be starting to peck for food for himself (I'd estimate) were he on the outside, learned partly by instinct and partly by watching other doves.

John


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## Dezirrae

Athalie said:


> I’m trying to upload the pictures of the seeds but it keeps saying upload error. They are finch and canary seeds, I mixed them together in a small glass tea light holder (a bit shorter than the shot glass). I put him on my lap on a fluffy towel and covered him with a small face towel, ha pecked at them immediately but only swallowed two and played about with the rest. I keep offering it to him but he doesn’t seem to want any more. I will give him a tiny bit more of the cornmeal gruel he gobbles that up, guess he likes it. Does he need water or is the hydrating mix enough?


I'm soooo glad to hear he's doing better!! At least sure seems like it from the increased energy level  Good job! 

The photo error may be that the picture is larger than the size limitation. If you know how to reduce the file size, try that -- or if you'd like to email me the picture ([email protected]) I'd be happy to post it for you.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Athalie,

Collared doves eat seed and grain whereas finches eat seeds and insects. Have a look at the contents of the packet and if there is a non-seed or grain component then remove it.

The Ready Brek will be fine, the only risk there is is that he could aspirate while being fed, so keep him still (if you can) and go slowly.

_"We have all seen that Pot of Oatmeal or other 'Cooked Cereal' which was not finished from Breakfast, and how 'easy' ( NOT! ) it is to dissolve it then in the sink, yes?" _ This theory discounts the fact that food in the digestive system is maintained at body temperature unless the bird is given freezing water or snow. Pigeons and doves have a slightly higher body temperature than we have, so a mix that is warmed to 39 degrees and served at that temperature will remain at that temperature and won't harden into a lump of "cold porridge" as suggested. 

According to Les Stocker (founder of St Tiggiwinkles), chicken growers pellets offer a complete diet to pigeons and doves. I have been buying these pellets for the wild woodies and doves, but it takes them a bit of time to recognise them as food.

Cynthia


----------



## Athalie

Hello again! I managed to upload the pictures of the seeds. I have been encouraging him to peck at them but I think I over encouraged him cause now he pecks at everything  fingers, sides of the box even had a go at the towel under him  so glad to see him so active. I was afraid to leave him alone in the bedroom in case he tries to fly out again (he did this morning and nearly got stuck under the bed) so I took him downstairs with me in its box and put it on the windowsill right above the radiator, it’s warm there. I must say he loves it  looking around even trotted the length of the windowsill a few times. 
I gave him a bit of water (I dipped my finger in it and couldn’t feel its temperature just the texture, hope that wasn’t too warm or cold) and some more cornmeal gruel, he loves that. 
I will post pictures of him in a bit
Thanks for all the help and advice, he is doing very well. Compared to the way he looked yesterday I’d say he is getting better.


----------



## Whitefeather

Many thanks for the update.
It does indeed sound like your little patient is feeling better.  

Look forward to some updated pictures when time permits.  

Cindy


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## pdpbison

Hi Athalie,



Can't tell anything about the Seeds from the images...


But, any small whole Seeds which other Birds eat, will be fine for him.


Someone mentioned also that you could select out the 'small' Seeds from those Mixes which contain small and large.


The 'Shot Glass Gobble' or whatever one might call it, will not work unless the Seeds are small...so, electing the smaller Seeds out of a Mix would be a good idea for sure, as a way of making your own Mix and for it to have a little more variety.

White Safflower Seeds are excellent, as are Hemp Seeds, if you can find them there.

If the Oat Groats are more than 1/4 inch Long, consider to cut them in half...and if any have their 'pointy' husks, remove the husk.


Also, at least in my experience, the largest Seed I have ever seen any youngster peck when new to pecking, is about 3/16ths of an inch in diameter, which the smaller dried Peas tend to be, or is about an average larger Milo Seed in sie...the White Safflower Seeds while longer and more slender, are managed well even by the tiny Doves I have had in their early pecking stages.

But for the intermediate 'gobble' stage, small whole Seeds will suit how the Birds do not tend to open their Beaks enough for anything larger to get in. Or they will open their Beaks more, but it usually requires a variation of the gesture from us, and this all ends up needing a 200 page Book then to explain it...so, the regular 'Shot Glass Seed Gobble' is plenty god enough as it is, and is not complicated or overly elusive to learn.

One also gently pushes the Seeds into their slihgtly opening Beak as their Beak is buried IN the Seeds, with the available finger tips of the hand whose finger tips are on the Beak Sides...and this helps a little also to get the Seeds in there.


Most youngsters take to this alost instantly, and will eat to the depth of their Beak...so they eat 2/3rds or so of it, and one refills to full.


A 'Baby' or younhgster can eat an honest Volume 'dry' Ounce in a minute or so, if not less.


This is infintely more convenient, safe, and effective, and fun...for them, and us, than other or tedious means of trying to get Seeds into a not yet pecking Pigeon or Dove.





You should offer 'tepid' Water for him to drink, several ties a day...in a Tea Cup would be fine, just hold it for him, and, if need be, gently guide his Beak into it. Do this in Towell Cave for that matter so his attentions are not scattered.

Youngsters instinctively or otherwise 'expect' their Water to be Body Temperature, since that is how it was or would be when being given to them by their parent(s).


They will refuse it if it is not close to their Body Temperature.


If you softly hold his beak in your finger tips, will he 'nuzzle' and push a little?


If so, guide his Beak into Water....and, also do the same 'gesture' for guiding his Beak into the little Glass of Seeds while keeping your finger tips on the sides of his Beak toward the back where the corners of his mouth are...and he may 'gobble' the Seeds with the same motions he would use if being fed by his parents. 

It is important to keep your finger tips on the rear sides of his Beak so he can feel them definitely 'there', and if he 'gobbles' the Seeds in the Glass then, after a few times all you have to do is guide his Beak to them and you can let go or just keep one finger tip there...or if he stops, put your finger tips back and he will resume 'gobbling'...


'gobbling' is them opening and closing their Beak as they would be doing in their parent's Throat if being fed by them.


We can invite them to do this by the above method, for them to 'gobble' small whole Seeds in a Shot Glass or similar wideish, 'deep' small container. This will allow him to eat a good deal in short-order, as he continues to advance in his Pecking Skills as such.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Athalie

Greetings! Hope everyone had a nice day today, I know Mondays are always the longest  My sweet little Bo is doing great, never seen him this active, ha absolutely loves being on the windowsill  Think he is snoozing now warm and cosy in his box. He pooped a lot today, at least once an hour, but they all had a bit of water around them. They were all normal poops, dark green with white about the size of the tip of my thumb I just noticed that the towel around them was wet. I gave him about 60 ml of water,about 4 teaspoons of it after each feed, ha hasn’t had any more since 6 pm I will give him some just before bed. He ate 3 times today, swallowed about 4 to 5 seeds in every feeding and scattered up the rest  I gave him some corn meal gruel too, about 10 ml each time I will feed him one more time tonight. I had a bit of trouble with the towel cave, he didn’t like being covered up with an ordinary towel, don’t know why, I used a thin microfiber one instead and he fell asleep as soon as he was under it. Haven’t really got used to checking his crop yet, it might take me another day to get the hang of it. In the mean time I just feed him till he doesn’t seem to want more.
I just got around to looking at all the pictures you gave me the link to Phil, wish I would have thought of using a Nipple for feeding, it’s certainly better then the pen I use. I will get one tomorrow for him. You are doing a wonderful thing with those birds, I admire you very much. Wish my Bo would start to eat more of the seeds, but instead he just pecks at my fingers  I noticed that the seeds on your pictures are small round ones, over here they sell them as budgie food, the ones they gave me in the pet shop are small and long, they said those are for canaries. I had some budgie seeds at home last night if I would have known they were ok… I have a budgie, Jordy. Will the long “English versioned canary seeds” still be ok to give him or should I use the budgie seeds instead?
Best wishes
Lots of thanks!


----------



## Athalie

Here are some pic ctures of me feeding him. 
PS The seeds are both small and long, the dark ones are for finches and the light colored ones are for canarys... that's what i asked for at tha pet shop and they gave me those two types. Again i noticed the seeds in your pictures (Phil) are round ones, over here they sell them for budgies... i will post larger pictures of them later ir maybe you can see them in the pictures with Bo. 
He doesn't like me touching his beak, but he knew what to do when he saw the seeds . I use the pen to give him the water aswell as the cornmeal gruel, i tried from the shot glass but he seems to like it more out of the pen, he drinks as soon as he sees it, with the glass he needed persuading. 
How much water would you recomend a day? I wouldnt want to give him too much ...
Best wishes!


----------



## mr squeaks

Hi Athalie!

BO looks like what I would call a very spoiled and comfortable little guy! 

Keep up the great work!

Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## Feefo

Hi Athalie,

The black ones are niger seeds, goldfinches love them but I have never managed to get collared doves interested in them , or the dunnocks for that matter. If Bo doesn't eat them then put them is a goldfinch feeder close to a hedge or hedgerow and enjoy the splash of colour that they provide.



> How much water would you recomend a day? I wouldnt want to give him too much ...


If he is drinking on his own then he will take as much as he needs.

Budgie seeds will be OK.

Cynthia


----------



## Feather

He sure is a cutie, and looks quite confortable.


----------



## Dezirrae

You are doing a fantastic job Athalie! Thanks for all the updates - and for caring so much for this little one. I hope the two of you get to sleep through the night soon


----------



## pdpbison

Athalie said:


> Here are some pic ctures of me feeding him.
> PS The seeds are both small and long, the dark ones are for finches and the light colored ones are for canarys... that's what i asked for at tha pet shop and they gave me those two types. Again i noticed the seeds in your pictures (Phil) are round ones, over here they sell them for budgies... i will post larger pictures of them later ir maybe you can see them in the pictures with Bo.





Hi Athalie, 



Well, if you go back, look for yourself at what kinds of smaller size whole Seeds they carry.


Any small to medium sized Seeds suitable for any kind of Bird, will be fine for her...and, ideally, one would prefer to have a variety, whether it coes as a 'mix' or if one mixes them one's self.

'Mediteranian' or other 'foreign' kinds of Markets often sell small Bags of various 'Grains' and Seeds, many of which are fine for our Birds.

Definitely they would have Flax, Millet, Sesame, Triticale or Buck Wheat, Barley, sall Mung Beans ( well, that is nore Asian, but..) Hulled Sunflower "Kernals" so long as they are 'sweet' soft and fresh...if dry, brittle or not sweet tasting, do not use them...any Grains or Seeds which people can eat 'raw', a Pigeon or Dove can too. Avoid Soy beans however...

So called 'Health Food Stores' or Health Food Co-Ops often carry various whole Seeds and Grains also in small Bags or Bulk...

Old Fashioned 'Feed Stores' also sometimes still do...if one is near any Agricultural regions or enclaves.





> He doesn't like me touching his beak, but he knew what to do when he saw the seeds . I use the pen to give him the water aswell as the cornmeal gruel, i tried from the shot glass but he seems to like it more out of the pen, he drinks as soon as he sees it, with the glass he needed persuading.
> How much water would you recomend a day? I wouldnt want to give him too much ...
> Best wishes!



The 'Nipple' - if you wish to try it...you tilt it toward them a little, and, once their Beak is in it, you squeeze the soft Rubber of it from the sides so it is softly 'against' the sides of their Beak back by the root or mouth...they need to 'feel' this there to remind them of their parent's Throat.

If you are goping to try it, ask me soe ore about it...


A Dove that size would likely eat eight or ten or twelve Nipple's full to a 'meal'...with three or four meals-a-day.

Tiny ones 1/5th his size will eat three or four even to-a-meal...so...


45-50 good sized poops-a-day or more ( 24 hours) is what one WILL find, for a fledgling who is active and eating enough...less of course, for the convelesent.



All the Water he likes is fine, as far as how much Water.


He will be the best judge of how much he needs to drink.


Offer Water which is warmed to about body temperature...or he will not like it or not drink as much as he should.



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

Phil, I am curious about how rapidly the eurasian collared dove is spreading in the US. 

We know from Julie that they are plentiful in Miami and I know that "dispersers" have been spotted in Nevada, but have they already built up in large numbers there? Are they getting labelled as a "nuisance" or "pest" series? 

Have you had many turn up needing care? 

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Cynthia,



I do not know!


I did see two at 'Petsmart', in their Birds-for-sale section...and they were lovely Birds, MUCH larger than our Mourning Doves, and rather more like a Pigeon overall in their presence...or, like more than half-way between a Mourning Dove and a Pigeon...stopping just short of 'Pigeon'...Lol...


I was very drawn to them.


I have never seen one otherwise...no one has brought me one.



They seem very charming, and I hope they may indeed settle in the Southern Mojave...




Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

I thought that you had some hands on experience on which to base your advice!

You have to be careful when you advise on feeding quantities for a bird that you have never handled. It is easy to overestimate, or underestimate, their size from pictures.

The behaviour of different dove species is also different. So are their diets and their tolerance of stress.

It is for this reason that I avoid giving advice on the care of Mourning Doves. We don't have them in the UK and it would be too easy for me to assume similarities with the Eurasian Collared Doves that don't exist.

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

cyro51 said:


> I thought that you had some hands on experience on which to base your advice!
> 
> You have to be careful when you advise on feeding quantities for a bird that you have never handled. It is easy to overestimate, or underestimate, their size from pictures.
> 
> The behaviour of different dove species is also different. So are their diets and their tolerance of stress.
> 
> It is for this reason that I avoid giving advice on the care of Mourning Doves. We don't have them in the UK and it would be too easy for me to assume similarities with the Eurasian Collared Doves that don't exist.
> 
> Cynthia



Hi cynthia, 



Thank you...

I appreciate your concern.



So...

Lets see what we can find out about this - 



Show me what I have suggested or 'advised' or shared in this Thread, which in any way was not appropriate for "this" individual Dove.


Be specific so I or others also can learn something...provide actual information or facts please.


I would truely feel bad to have erred...and I would wish to make ammends of course, if I have.


So...examples please?



Thank you, 


Best wishes, 



Phil
l v


----------



## Athalie

Good afternoon everyone! Hope you had a nice day! Just thought I’d let you know how Bo’s getting on. He started eating seeds this morning, had about 20 ml of Ready Break at half past 8 and since then we are learning to peck at seeds  He seems to like them very much, just has trouble judging the distance between his beak and the seeds so he misses quite a few times but he’ll get the hang of it soon  He likes to sit on my chest and snooze, grooms himself a lot, he’ll be a pretty boy  I will give him some more Ready Break and maybe some cornmeal gruel in the evening in case he didn’t manage to get enough seeds down for the day.
Thank everyone for all your help, especially Phil and Cynthia, couldn’t have done it without you!  Take care! Best wishes!
I will keep writing to tell you how he’s getting on.


----------



## Feefo

> Show me what I have suggested or 'advised' or shared in this Thread, which in any way was not appropriate for "this" individual Dove.
> Be specific so I or others also can learn something...provide actual information or facts please.I would truely feel bad to have erred...and I would wish to make ammends of course, if I have. So...examples please?


Phil, I get the impression that your request is far from sincere, I don't really have the time for this and I don't want to quarrel with you because I know that you are genuinely caring about doves and pigeons, but as you have asked I will just summarise what alarmed me about your input on this thread, even before I realised that you had never even handled a collared dove:

The advice that was given by others about feeding on this thread was correct, a lot of it had been put forward in the past by Nooti, but you dismissed the foods that were recommended stating:



> I try and give real, proven, integrated information, and it is like Water on a Ducks back. Why listen when one can just go off inventing things out of NO knowledge, no experience and no understanding !!!!


If someone on this forum has already offered valid advice then in my view it is wrong to start trying to panic and confuse the rescuer by suggesting that if they don't do things your way the bird will die. Specially when you have no experience to back your claims up. 

You advised that instead of using the correct proportions for the rehydrating (which had already been put forward in an earlier post) the dove should be given "a good pinch of salt and a pinch of sugar in a cup of tepid water". That level of salt is dangerous, one member followed similar advice, although in that case it was a teaspoon of salt that was recommended, and the pigeon started foaming at the mouth and then died.

You also undermined and insulted just about every member on this forum when you said:



> It happens in these threads here, and aside from me, virtually no one ever asks them WHAT they are actually doing, nor allows the person to know what NOT to do, virtually no one ever realizes that 'details' matter, review matters...the person says " I am feeding him some Dog Food and he seems a lot better now!" or, " I mixed some Dog Food and some Cereal and cooked some formula and fed it to him, and..." and everyone offeres cuddos and positive emotional support things, and no one realizes the mistake which IS happenning. Then the Bird dies, and everyone offers condolances on how much the person cared.


Bernadette had been advised to give the dove soaked dog biscuits and this is what she did, so the rant was uncalled for. As far as I remember this scenario that you offer has never actually happened on this forum. Perhaps you could enlighten us all on how we have contributed to killing a dove or any other bird.

This thread has seriously made me consider leaving the forum. 

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Cynthia, 



If the things I had said are to be understood in their actual context, we will find -


I was responding to Bernadette's having said she was "Boiling Cereal and adding Meat to it" and feeding that to the Dove.


I did end up catharcising and lamenting on broader sidelights of how people can innocently make fatal or harmful mistakes, or, disregard information given them in naive or impetuous inventions or capris, in careing for and feeding young or Baby Birds.


And that is all there was to it. And nothing more or else need be put in to it.




As it happens, Bernadette later clearified, that when she had said "Boiled" she meant 'Warmed'...and, when she had said "Meat" she had meant 'Dog Bisquit'...

Okay, we got that cleared up and all was well then.



None of your 'quotes' are in context, nor are they recognising the actual contextual succession of developement or address, of what actually transpired wherein I had said what I had said. You are trying to apply these 'quotes' to issues or details they were never about.


I am very sorry for any offence anyone felt from anything I had written...even if it was for their "putting" it there in their own mis-readings, hasty 'reactions', or emotionalized and even accidental interpolations, confusions, or anything else.

I want only and most, for us all to enjoy good practices, good information, kindness, patience, friendship, fellowship for our interests, respect for the Birds, and, for eachother...and to have fun, too..! Of course!


We all Love these Birds...


Please, let us all give our good will and support to eachother, in positive ways, supportive ways, friendly ways, kind ways, careful ways...even knowing we will slip up now and then. And to be forgiving if we do slip up sometimes.


This forum is dear to all of us, as are the Birds it is for.



I do not think anyone benifits to be putting lots of heavy negative energy into fault finding, even if fault is to be found.


That is my appreciation, and it is also my aspiration for my own conduct and writing.


I do not know what else to say at this point, but that.




Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## ryannon

pdpbison said:


> We all Love these Birds...
> 
> 
> Please, let us all give our good will and support to eachother, in positive ways, supportive ways, friendly ways, kind ways, careful ways...even knowing we will slip up now and then. And to be forgiving if we do slip up sometimes.
> 
> 
> This forum is dear to all of us, as are the Birds it is for.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas




As in life, there will always be differences of interpretation and potential personality clashes on a forum: part of being an adult is knowing when to cut others a bit of slack.

It strikes me as particularly unjust when I see a member like Phil being put on the defensive.

_And the same would apply to any number of forum regulars here._ 

It happened to me once - through the 'cherrypicking' of comments I posted in a thread, and both out of loyalty to someone who's consistently shown his own loyalty to the best interest of pigeons, and my own experience, I'm saddened and upset to see this happening once again.

We all know who our real opponents are - what a shame to turn people on our own side into make-believe enemies.

How nice it would be if members could grant some of the infinite patience and love they have for pigeons to the occasional _tried and true _member of this forum who inadvertently ruffles their feathers without meaning to do so.


----------



## Athalie

Greetings everyone! Hope your day was nice! Bo is doing great, comfy and cosy in his box, ate lots of seeds today (about 4 teaspoons worth), I am glad about that, he pooped some nice big ones too  never thought I would be happy to see poop on my T-shirt  He seemed a bit sleepy since 5 pm but he was eating well and drinking water too, so might have been just the weather. I gave him about 5 ml of Ready Break not long ago he didn’t seem to want more I didn’t force him, guess he had enough seeds. 
I will keep posting updates on his progress. 
I am truly grateful for everyone’s advice, and I do mean everyones, because I know that you all were trying to help the best way you could. 
I wish you all a good night and a sunny day tomorrow!
Bernadette


----------



## Whitefeather

Appreciate the update, Bernadette. 

Glad to hear Bo is doing so well.
You've done, & are doing, a wonderful job.  

Cindy


----------



## Feefo

> As in life, there will always be differences of interpretation and potential personality clashes on a forum: part of being an adult is knowing when to cut others a bit of slack.


A few years ago I offered some advice on US law relating to pigeons, I was picked up on it and told not to try to advise on a subject that I new nothing about because it is dangerous. I appreciated that advice and have the greatest respect and friendship tpowards the member that gave it. I have also followed it ever since.

I am not concerned about who the enemy is here, or whose ego is has to be protected from the truth but in who the victim is, and that is invariably the pigeon. When I was new to pigeon rescue someone who "knew everything about pigeons" gave me instructions that led to the death of the pigeon.

I will *not* sit back and keep quiet when a new member is bullied and wrongly told that she is doing everything incorrectly by someone who hadn't taken the time to check his facts, because that will ultimately harm the bird. *This is the fourth time this same scenario has happened in a matter of months* , coincidentally each time a first time UK female rescuer has been the target. In one shameful instance the bully deleted most of his post after the rescuer had responded and had the gall to pretend that she was suffering delusions by responding to accusations that hadn't been made.

As far as I am concerned bullying and lying are unacceptable, even in other pigeon lovers and I will always stand up for what I believe is right


----------



## ryannon

It's true: *Phil* is a notorious bully, liar and all-around psychopath. 

He constantly mis-informs and has *serious ego problems *about it.

*He also hates women, especially those in Great Britain*.

It's possible that he's also suffering from *terminal andropause.*

I think this forum would be much better if he were *banned.*

After which, I think I'll ban myself.

_Jesus, life is too short for this kind of psychodrama._


----------



## Whitefeather

*ENOUGH* already.  

Ryannon,
If you post in this thread again, it better be something *specifically* pertaining to Bernadette's dove.

Any further *nonsense* posts *will* be deleted.

If you want to discuss this further, please feel free to email me:
[email protected]

Cindy


----------



## Feefo

You think as you please and do as you please, Jonathan.


----------



## Dezirrae

Athalie said:


> Greetings everyone! Hope your day was nice! Bo is doing great, comfy and cosy in his box, ate lots of seeds today (about 4 teaspoons worth), I am glad about that, he pooped some nice big ones too  never thought I would be happy to see poop on my T-shirt  He seemed a bit sleepy since 5 pm but he was eating well and drinking water too, so might have been just the weather. I gave him about 5 ml of Ready Break not long ago he didn’t seem to want more I didn’t force him, guess he had enough seeds.
> I will keep posting updates on his progress.
> I am truly grateful for everyone’s advice, and I do mean everyones, because I know that you all were trying to help the best way you could.
> I wish you all a good night and a sunny day tomorrow!
> Bernadette


This is great Bernadette  Hope Bo is comfy & cosy today too. You made me laugh with the "never thought I would be so happy to see poop on my t-shirt" - I know what you mean! hehehee... Looking forward to the next update. My hat off to you for doing such a wonderful job


----------



## TAWhatley

Folks, let's please get this thread back to the care of the bird and the well being of the bird. Members that want to bicker about who said what to who and why, need to take it private or take it up with one or more of the moderators.

I think any salient points about the proper care of the bird have been adequately made and any incorrect or confusing information in that regard has been clarified.

Cindy said it all .. ENOUGH ALREADY!

Thank you for your cooperation!

Terry


----------



## nikku-chan

yeah, well done Bernadette.
I am quite new to this forum also, as i found a little baby a few weeks ago that is now the same age as your baby.

It can be very daunting..especially if you are told such conflicting information. But you've done a really good job.

I hope your little baby is thriving. What do you think you'll do with him once he's ready to fend for himself?

This is now my dilemma... I'm not sure what to do with my baby!

Post more pics soon!

Goodluck!

Nikku x


----------



## Athalie

Greetings Nikku!
I am glad your baby is also doing well. I have been thinking the same thing all day today… ever since I started feeding him I feel closer to him. I was hoping he will stay around the house or maybe come back to see me from time to time…don’t even know if I’ll recognise him when he gets older. Something tells me I will  mother’s instinct perhaps… I will be sad when his time come to be with his own, but I also know that that is the best for him, that is exactly why I tried keeping his parents interested as long as possible. Hope he won’t be too tamed to fend for himself. Maybe I worry too much… there’re just so many bad things out there that it scares me to think of letting him go  but again he belongs with his own.
Would you post some pictures of your little one pleas? It will be nice to see him  

PS
I don’t mean to get involved in any argument happening on this thread, I most sincerely hope it wasn’t me who caused it. All I would like to add is that, like Mr. ryannon said, people need to cut each other some slack, especially towards those who are in need of help and who care. It’s not easy being confronted with something as delicate as a sick baby pigeon, and someone having a go at you certainly makes things more difficult. I have the utmost respect and admiration for Phil, he is doing a wonderful job, but some things shouldn’t have been said as sharply as they have been. 

I wish everyone a happy and sunny day tomorrow and a very nice evening!
Bernadette


----------



## LondonPigeon

thank you for looking after the dove

it's really cute,and hope it will continue to get better


----------



## Maggie-NC

Bernadette, I am so very pleased that things are finally going well for your baby. You've done an admirable job in caring for him. It is really hard at first to care for a young dove (or pigeon) if you have never done it before but I'll bet you are already feeling more comfortable handling him.

Thank you for being such a nice person too!


----------



## ZeldaCA

Bernadette, I've been reading the thread and just wanted to say how happy I am that your little dove is responding to your good care and love! I don't know how doves are compared to pigeons, but my pigeon Floyd (who we've had two months now) seemed to bond to us very quickly and so we decided he needed to be a pet, as he was far too trusting of humans to do well in the wild. I, like you, also couldn't bear the thought of anything happening to him if we let him go and something bad happened.

Oh well, you will know in time whether or not he/she can be safely released. One thing that's for sure, there is a wealth of information and people who really do know a lot here, so I know they will give you good advice.

Good luck, and happy foster-mothering!

Zelda


----------



## nikku-chan

hey Bernadette,

I have exactly the same concerns as you. 
It will be so hard letting my baby go. But she needs to find a mate. Obviously since they mate for life, having a mate is very special to them.

If i kept her, I'd have to buy/find a mate for her..and build them housing etc. which i'm really not equipped to do. But i will if i have to!

I live in Australia. I wish we lived closer, if yours ended up being a boy, and mine a girl, maybe they would mate and have little Bo-Pecky babies! (my baby is called Pecky, but she's becoming more of a Flappy lately) But they are quite different breeds anyway, so i'm sure it wouldn't be possible. Mine is a "feral" pigeon, or "Rock Dove".

this picture is 5 days after i found her









This is when she was 4 weeks old with my boyfriend, just before she learned to fly! (we can't take her outside anymore because she might fly away and get lost)









This is at about 5 weeks..maybe a bit under.


----------



## nikku-chan

and, sorry for posting so many pictures, but i'm a proud parent.
This is her having a shower bath.
Has yours tried that yet? It's the cutest thing ever.










Keep us updated with your little Bo!

Nikku x


----------



## Athalie

My goodness, he’s the sweetest little thing! Congratulations, you’ve done a great job, he looks very happy! I’m not sure if this is true but I read somewhere that they have to choose their own mate, so I guess buying one won’t work… again, I’m not certain, I just remember reading about it. I wouldn’t mind having two sweet doves here, to be honest I feel very sad for him being all alone in that box… that’s why I take him with me all around the house. He is very curious, pecks at everything  yesterday he was in the kitchen with me (in his box) while I was cooking, he hopped out of his box and walked round the kitchen tops till he reached the chopping board and pecked at the onions, Ha didn’t like them I can tell you that  What kind of “housing” do they require? My fiancé would gladly make one for him, he’s enchanted with the little fluff ball too, we can’t stop staring at him sometimes  I wouldn’t like to keep him in a cage though. Is it possible that they just have a shelter-like wooden box or something so they can fly whenever they want? Wish some people weren’t so mean so we could release them back where they belong  
Great day to everyone! Best wishes!


----------



## Athalie

I know exactly how you feel about posting pictures, I couldn’t stop taking them yesterday  He hasn’t tried that yet, but I had (still have, he just lives with my parents now) a budgie, Ti-ti, he used to love having showers under the kitchen tap, so I know what to expect. Doesn’t take away the excitement of it though  I take care of a budgie now as well, she belongs to my sister-in-law, but she couldn’t take it to where she lives so we agreed to have her. She likes to bathe in a little dish. They are so relaxing and enjoyable to watch, like fish I guess  Can’t believe my Ti-ti is 14 years old. He’s the oldest one I know that is still alive… must be some kind of a record. I’ll take some pictures when there’s a bit more light, my camera is crap (sorry, might not be allowed to say crap)
He makes my days so much more full of life! I love having him around! I bet you feel the same about Pecky


----------



## Feefo

> What kind of “housing” do they require? My fiancé would gladly make one for him, he’s enchanted with the little fluff ball too, we can’t stop staring at him sometimes I wouldn’t like to keep him in a cage though.


Collared doves absolutely hate being in cages and will batter themselves bloody against the bars to get out, although tame ones will be quite happy to sit in a cage with the door open or to live in a large aviary.

They are much cleaner to have around the house than pigeons, because their poops are so neat, dry quickly and can be brushed up.

The danger of having a dove in the house is that if it accidentally escapes it might not be able to find its way home. Fluke, a dove rescued by another UK member escaped, he was returned two weeks later because he had flown into a pub window and knocked himself out, fortunately someone knew Fluke's rescuer and put two and two together.

Our Poppet is in a large aviary outside which she shares with other rescued feral pigeons and wood pigeons. We would like her (him?) to have a mate and have put other doves in with her but she will have none of that: John is the only mate she wants!

This is a link of a video of Poppet, Nami-Chan (an unreleasable feral pigeon) and Littlewood (an unreleasable wood pigeon) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Chy5UB92Gd4

and this is one of Poppet wondering what all this canoodling between two pigeons means: 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l64rZ0DPLVc

Cynthia


----------



## Athalie

They are beautiful Cynthia !Congratulations ! Hope you don’t mind, I watched all the videos you posted 
We have an unused shed at the side of the house, it’s quite large, ill take some pictures of it for you, right now it’s full of stuff but a little elbow grease can sort that out  I was hoping that the parents would take interest in him again once he starts to fly, they are nesting in the garden very close to the house in a conifer. I see them every morning and throw food for them. I think one of them was born in the nest right next to my bedroom window, they were two babies in that nest last summer. Is there anything I could do to get the parents attention? They seem busy gathering twigs and stuff I assume for a nest, that’s why they stopped caring for Bo. I was thinking of putting the baby outside for a little while each day, maybe they’ll fly down to him… it would help if it wasn’t so cold  
I will post the pictures see what I can do for him if he can’t be released.
Good day to everyone!


----------



## Feefo

Hi Bernadette,

I don't think that Bo's parents will be interested in him now. Collared doves will feed together but don't loll around in flocks like pigeons, once they have fed pairs will head off in different directions.

They don't seem to like roosting under cover, either. We have a shelter at one end of the aviary and a shed at the other, but whereas the feral pigeons will seek out their "caves" Poppet and the wood pigeons have always opted to sleep out in the open. 

Cynthia


----------



## ZeldaCA

My understanding is that if you do not supply your bird with a mate (and sometimes, even if you DO!) that they will often consider one member of their human family their mate. I know this is true for parrots and some other domesticated birds....but I am not sure about pigeons and doves. But if it's true for them, then Bernadette, you can certainly provide companionship for your dove by getting one or more to live with him/her, but it's primary bond may end up being with you, anyway.

I have noticed Floyd has now bonded to me (he sees me more than my DH or the kids). He likes to groom me, and will allow me to pet him, while he is wary of anyone else's fingers/hands. In other words, I think I've become his significant other! If you and your boyfriend spend as much time with your dove as it sounds like you do, this may be the case with it as well.


----------



## tipper

ZeldaCA said:


> My understanding is that if you do not supply your bird with a mate (and sometimes, even if you DO!) that they will often consider one member of their human family their mate. I know this is true for parrots and some other domesticated birds....but I am not sure about pigeons and doves. But if it's true for them, then Bernadette, you can certainly provide companionship for your dove by getting one or more to live with him/her, but it's primary bond may end up being with you, anyway.
> 
> I have noticed Floyd has now bonded to me (he sees me more than my DH or the kids). He likes to groom me, and will allow me to pet him, while he is wary of anyone else's fingers/hands. In other words, I think I've become his significant other! If you and your boyfriend spend as much time with your dove as it sounds like you do, this may be the case with it as well.


That happened with my bird. When he died last summer I was devastated. Still am. My family finally prevailed on me to buy a baby, but we made the mistake of getting two. Miata has taken off and so far no luck in finding her. Gus, who is still here, loathes all humans despite having been crop fed, handled and always around us. Miata was much friendlier and liked just hanging out, would come when she was called, and was a people pigeon. Go figure that she'd be the one to disappear. Gus could never survive on his own so I guess we're condemned to be with each other for life. I hesitate to get another pigeon for fear he'd teach it his wicked ways. At least he makes pigeon noises and that makes me happy.


----------



## Athalie

Greeting everyone! I was very busy yesterday, have been putting some work off for a long time and it caught up with me. Can I buy collared doves? I didn’t think they were bred in captivity… that would be very nice indeed, to have a little friend for Bo. He seems to be growing every day  his little collar is shoving now and he seems to have less fluff and more feathers. Had a family discussion yesterday about that shed, we have enough space to build an aviary, not a very large one but it’s better than nothing. When we cleaned it out I’ll post pictures, right now it’s in a horrible state. 
I would never have thought when I found Bo that I found a friend for life  I’m very happy!
My adoptive budgie Jordy, she thinks my fiancé is her mate, she goes mad when we let her out in the room and she gets near him  gets more kisses then I do sometimes 
Wish you all a great weekend! Take care!
Bernadette
PS Sorry about Miata tipper, hope you find her soon. Good luck!


----------



## Feefo

Hi Bernadette

You can't buy collared doves because they are wild birds, but there may be sanctuaries near you that have unreleasable ones that need homing. They can suffer from foot deformities through lack of calcium. Heln (Nooti) dosn't live far from you (she is in Blackburn Lancashire), I will text her to see if she can help. The number of collared doves is increasing fast and so there are more rescues turning up all the time.

There are also several species of very similar looking domestic doves. I have no experience of those and don't know whether the different species will mate, but our dove owners on this site might help or you could ask this group:

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/

Cynthia


----------



## Dezirrae

Hi Bernadette,

I was wondering how Bo was doing... hope s/he's continueing to make progress. I look forward to an update when you have time


----------



## nikku-chan

Hey Bernadette!
Glad to hear that Bo is doing so well.
I think i'm going to build some kind of aviary for Pecky, as feral pigeons are far less stressed in captivity.

I'm hoping if i get her a mate she will like him! From what i've read on here, pigeons tend to only pick and choose when they can...so usually, even if they don't like eachother at first, eventually they should.

I'm really facing a huge dilemma though. I really don't know what is right. Whether i should keep her so she has her health and a safe place to be and medicine if she needs it and security etc...or whether it would be better to somehow try to socialise her enough to let her go, and hope that she joins a flock. Either way i go, i could be making a mistake.

My mum says she'd rather 3 years of being free, then 15 years of being captive. But i don't know how Pecky would feel about it. I wish she could talk 

To make sure that Bo comes to you when he's older, call him and hold your hand out with his most favourite food and make a special noise that you only make at that time. Pecky has picked it up pretty quickly. Sometimes she even lands on my head. Then, if Bo ever gets out into the world, or if you do release him, he will come back to you when you call him. I hope it works that way anyway.

I have a shed too, but it has a concrete floor, and water gets in between the iron and the floor, and it gets really damp when it's rainy. I hope yours isnt the same, because i've heard that damp environments are really bad for pigeons.

Has Bo started flying yet, or are Doves different in that respect?

Anyway, make sure you post some pics soon 
Nikku x


----------



## Athalie

Greetings everyone! Hope you are all well and had a great weekend!
Hello Nikku! Hope you’re ok too and your sweet Peky! I agree with your mum on this subject, that I would rather live just 3 years free than 15 captive. Ever since I found Bo I intended to release him, but I thought the parents would take interest in him again. Now that I know they won’t I would rather keep him… hurts when I think of him all alone outside at night in cold n all  I’m being silly… I certainly kept the handling to a minimum, I take him with me everywhere in the house but I try not to pick him up n cuddle him as much. 
He isn’t flying yet, he is trying but he can only get from the top of the bed to the floor and always lands awkwardly on his crop. He might still be very young, he still has fluff on his back only just starting to get his proper feather. It might be his wing though, I’ve noticed that a while ago, that his right wing sort of sticks out away from his body but it never seemed to trouble him in any way it just looks weird. I will post loads of pictures soon, have to get hold of my fiancés phone, mine fell in water n is knocked out and I don’t have a camera. I will try to get one of that wing too, see if we can figure out why it’s like that.
He is absolutely the sweetest thing I have ever seen, I always stare at him while he’s grooming, he does that A LOT 
Wish everyone a great day! Finally we have some sunshine in England too  missed it after all the rain.
I will try to post those pics this afternoon or as soon as I can, he has grown so much has trouble turning in his box 
PIGEONS AND DOVES RULE! Just wanted to shout that  sorry


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## Feefo

Hi Nikku-Chan,

When I rescued my first pigeon I shared your mother's view, and sent her off to a rehabber for release in the wild. Since then I have found out that according to many the average lifespan of a feral pigeon is 2 years. 

Last year I rescued 6 sick pigeons from a flock that is fed and inspected daily. They recovered quickly and were released back into the same flock three weeks later, each was banded so that I would be sure to recognise them again. Within 6 moths they had all disappeared from the flock.

When we talk of "freedom" and "captivity" we think of open skies and a small cage...but (at least in the UK) the freedom that a feral pigeon enjoys appears to me to be very much like the freedom that a homeless person, sleeping in doorways and begging for food, has. Their "captivity" appears to be much like our daily routine , shuttling securely between home and work with brief breaks for socialising.

Twice I have found pigeons trying to get into my aviary. One was a youngster that we had released ans who came back the next day to cling to the aviary as she tried to reach the other piegeons. The other was a strange white pigeon that came and sat on the aviary for two days until we gave in and let her join us. Having shown quite plainly that they wanted to get in to the aviary, neither has shown any desire to leave...nor have any of our other "captive" pigeons.

Cynthia


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## John_D

I must echo Cynthia's view, both from my own observations of our 'captive flock' and those who frequent the balcony at my apartment.

(At the aviary, there was a third one, Star, who one day just wandered out when the doors were less secure and took off to explore. Within 2 or 3 days he was back, pecking around outside the wire, and Cynthia quickly led him back inside where he went straight back to his mate.) 

I sometimes refer to my balcony as the 'aviary without wire'.

I have pigeons who come to feed and enjoy a bath, and six to eight who make the balcony their 'home', and roost each night. One pair have been nesting here (usually on dummy eggs) for just under four years. The pigeons roost around the apartment blocks or at the church a few hundred yards away. During the day, most spend their time lounging on the long roof across the street.They actually live in a very small world, because that is their nature. 

I see little difference in how these free pigeons live and how our aviary birds live, really, especially when my 'balcony residents' go no further than across the street 

'My' lot do, admittedly, have the freedom to do a few laps around the block, but aside from that they just don't go anywhere. But how the members of this gathering change! I have one dear pigeon who visits and who is now entering the tenth year since I first met him, plus three or four of my 'stay-at-homes' who have hung out here for quite a while, but with the others it seems like I start to recognize them as regulars and then they disappear.

In the aviary at Cynthia's, the pigeons do just as they please, get everything they need and more, mostly stay pretty healthy, the more able-bodied have plenty of flight space. They get waited on wing and foot - and they can beat the heck out of us without repercussions if they feel like it  

John


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## nikku-chan

Well, you don't know how much better you've made me feel!

I was so conflicted over this decision, that i even dreamed about it last night.

Now i know what i'm doing is not selfish. YAY!  That's a great feeling.

Time to spend what piddly student savings i have and get to work!

It's so unfair how jobs that matter are never paid.

I want to spend my time rescuing animals..but it's not a viable "career path".

Just wait until i'm retired!

nikku x


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## Athalie

Greetings everyone! 
I feel very relieved now that I’ve read your posts (Cynthia, John). I thought that keeping Bo wouldn’t be fair to him, but now I am certain it is for the best. He is a very curious little bird, wants to see everything, loves looking out the window and wandering around on the bed. He grooms a lot too, guess it’s because his new feathers are grooving, he is certainly a joy to watch. He seems genuinely happy to me, I thought it was just wishful thinking at first, but now he has his own little routine, he knows when the water comes, when the box needs cleaning etc. I’m definitely going to build him a nice big aviary and see what I can do about getting him a little friend or two. 
I have been counting his poops for a while now, but it’s still only one every hour. Is that ok? Phil said it should be between 40 to 50 in 24 hours. He only has 30 in that period. He is eating very well, millet and canary seeds mixed together; he also drinks a lot of water. 5 times a day about 10 ml each time. The poops are ok, dark green, towards brown with some white in them. I was thinking that 30 is ok for a convalescing bird but now that he’s better shouldn’t he start producing more?
Here are the pics I promised, couldn’t post them yesterday, site was under maintenance. Hope you like them 
Wish everyone a great day! Hope to hear from you soon!
BIRDS RULE  !!!
Bernadette


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## Athalie

This is a picture of that right wing I was telling you about. It doesn’t seem to bother him at all it just looks unnatural. Hope it’s not broken


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## Reti

What a cute little dove.
They make great pets, you will enjoy his company.
The wing looks a bit odd positioned. Is it all the time like this or just now in the pic?
I have some doves and pigeons with a wing that hangs lower, they have no problem flying though and as long as he is kept as a pet it doesn't really matter if he is the best flyer or not.

Reti


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## John_D

Hi Bernadette,

Wouldn't worry about the poops. Sounds OK to me. Phil's estimate would have to based on birds with which he is familiar, which may well have a somewhat different metabolism.

Sure is a cutie, like the one Cynthia currently has inside.

John


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## Feefo

Hi Bernadette,

There is no rule about how many poops any bird should pass in a day and Phil was probably thinking of a larger bird anyway. However, if you are concerned that he isn't thriving then keep an eye on his weight, that is the best indicator.

He shouldn't be falling on his crop when he tries to fly. Are his legs OK? Can he stand and walk properly? Is he able to perch on your finger and grip it? 

He is also drinking a lot more than I would expect. Drinking a lot won't do him any harm, but it is often a sign of an underlying problem. It is best to leave water with them so that it is available all the time.

Cynthia


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## Athalie

Hello Cynthia!
He can stand and walk normal and he can grip my finger if he stands on it but sort of leans backwards like he has a weight on his tail. I left water in his box for him but he either spilt it or pooped in it so I give him some bit by bit . He seems very thirsty in the morning; I give him water at 6 am, then again at 10 or 11, at 3 or 5 pm, at 8 pm and at 11 or 12 pm before bed. He usually drinks about a teaspoonful each time, maybe more in the morning and at bedtime.
He can flap his wings normally and stretches them quite often and doesn’t mind me touching it at all that’s why I said it doesn’t seem to bother him in any way it just look weird. It is always like that, sticks out away from his body. I only noticed it last week, t first I thought his feathers were growing odd. I couldn’t tell before because he was constantly fluffed up  He is the cutest thing I’ve ever seen  
BIRDS RULE  !


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## Athalie

*Help*

Hello, my name is Carl, Bernadettes fiance.
We was holding Bo and it jumped and tried to fly. Luckily it landed on the bed covers, or so we thought. It's right leg seems to be pointing out 90 degrees from it's body. Bernadette is nursing it now, she asked me to write to see if anybody can help, it cannot walk no more.
It seems to be in pain, twitching and shaking, please help us in any way.

Thank you.

Carl.


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## Whitefeather

Athalie said:


> Hello, my name is Carl, Bernadettes fiance.
> 
> *We was holding Bo and it jumped and tried to fly. Luckily it landed on the bed covers, or so we thought. It's right leg seems to be pointing out 90 degrees from it's body.*
> 
> Bernadette is nursing it now, she asked me to write to see if anybody can help, it cannot walk no more.
> It seems to be in pain, twitching and shaking, please help us in any way.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Carl.


Hi Carl,
Is there any chance of posting a picture of what you're describing regarding the 'new' injury to Bo's leg?

Others, with more knowledge of injuries than I have, will be along to help assist you. 
In the meantime, I would suggest securing Bo so he is unable to further injure something. I would also place him on a towel lined heating pad, set on low. 

Cindy


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## Athalie

Hello it's Carl again.

Bernadette cannot write at the moment, so she asked me to do it.
I'm sorry to have to say that baby Bo has died. We dont really know what happened, his right leg swelled up, he started twitching then went stiff and died.
We are sorry, we could'nt do more.

Bernadette will post when she is better.


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## Pidgey

I'm so sorry to hear this! It sounds like it happened far too fast for anything to be done. I can't tell you if he dislocated his leg and then got a blood clot that went to the organs or what. I had been puzzling over the wing and hadn't come up with any kind of thought about that and now this.

Pidgey


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## Reti

I am in shock reading the news. I am so sorry this happened, so unexpected, how tragic.

The only thing I can think of is that besides dislocating his hip he must have suffered some severe internal injury with massive bleeding. Another theory could be a broken bone with a fat embolus that traveled to the lungs and caused a pulmonary embolus. But that causes usually a slower death, at least in humans.

There is nothing you could have done, I am sorry.

Reti


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## Charis

I'm heartbroken for you and I know this is a huge loss.


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## Feefo

Carl, I am so very sorry, please give Bernadette a hug from me.

Collared doves are so fragile they can't tolerate pain and stress, they give up very quickly. There must have been more wrong with Bo than we were able to uncover, their legs don't become dislocated that easily.

I know that he brought you a lot of happiness and that you did the same for him. He was a dear little bird.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather

I am so very sorry, Bernadette & Carl.  

Bless you both for allowing Bo to experience what true human love is.  

*And bless you, our sweet Bo. May you now forever fly free.* 

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC

I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am that Bo died. Bernadette and Carl, you both did all you could for him.


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## Dezirrae

I am just heartbroken Bernadette and Carl - as I know you both are too  Such a wonderful little soul - I'm very sorry you had such a short time with Bo. You both provided such a loving home for Bo and I'm sure that Bo loved you both for it. 

Rest in peace dear Bo -- fly high and free.


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## Athalie

Greetings everyone! I can’t put it in words how devastated I am over what happened. He just passed away in my arms and there was nothing I could do. Why did this have to happen  we had such a nice cuddle this morning, just noticed that he liked when I rubbed my finger against the back of his neck  Carl just took him out of the box to put him on the bed but he just took off and landed on the cover it was piled up in one corner then he rolled off think that’s when he hurt his leg. I only noticed something was wrong when we put him back in his box about 5 minutes later, he was flapping his wings and kept falling on his crop. When I looked the leg was completely dislocated pointing out from his body and it was swollen and turning dark purple colour. I picked him up and put both index fingers under his tummy to take the weight off his leg and held his wings gently against his body trying to calm him down while Carl wrote the post on the site He drank a bit of water… he was shaking  then he just went stiff first he was very light couldn’t even tell I was holding him then he turned heavy  we buried him in his favourite towel put his pen-tube in and a very special cross I had. Wish there was something I could have done.
Thank all of you for being here for us. We’re grateful for all your support. It’s going to be very hard not having him around. He meant a lot to the both of us.


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## ZeldaCA

Oh, I am so sorry to log on this morning and read this, Bernadette! I know you and Carl gave Bo the very best care you could.

Reading back and seeing Cynthia's comments about Bo needing an abnormally high amount of drinking water, and yours about Bo never really being able to stand up straight (without balancing on either his tail feathers or crop) made me think that there was probably a lot more wrong with him physically than the eye could see. I suspect he only lived as long as he did because of your love and care, otherwise I am sure he probably would have perished on the same day you found him, or soon after. And because of you, although he had a short life, it WAS a good one, full of love.

I know there is not anything I can say right now that will make this any better. I'm sure you will miss him tremendously, and I hope your heart heals in time. (((hugs)))

Zelda


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## myrpalom

I feel so sad for you Bernadette.
Every evening when I logged in, I checked on this thread to see how Bo was progressing.
I know no words can bring you consolation now, but you brought happiness and love in Bo's short life. Sick as he probably was, he would have died alone in the cold if you did not find him.
With you he was always warm, comfortable and cared for.
My deepest feelings are with you.
Myriam


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## TAWhatley

I am so terribly sorry for the loss of little Bo. Bless you Carl and Bernadette for all you did for this little one.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

Bernadette, I have been thinking about Bo all afternoon and am now wondering if he may have died from shock. I have absolutely no experience with collared doves but I do with mourning doves. They are extremely high-strung and can go ballistic in a moment's notice. He may have been in pain and his little system simply couldn't take it.

There is a disease that birds can get though it is more prevalent, I think, in songbirds, called metabolic bone disease. It comes from them not getting enough calcium and makes their bones brittle. Being so young, he may not have built up enough reserved calcium in his body and his bones were weak.

I just wanted to mention these things to you. When we lose a pigeon, I am forever trying to think of what could have happened. 

Just remember, we all try our best, but maybe God needed a sweet little dove to sit with him and chose your Bo.


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## mr squeaks

Hello Bernadette and Carl...

I am adding my condolences also! I, too, have been following your thread and was quite shocked at Bo's sudden death.

I know you did the best you could and agree with my fellow members that there could have been something else going on. Also, sudden severe shock can take a bird very quickly!

With love and hugs at this sad time...

Shi


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## Athalie

Greetings everyone! Thank you for all your support, it means a lot. Can’t stop thinking about Bo, feel responsible. Wish there was more I could do. Kept his box on the windowsill where he liked it. Can’t accept how such a stupid accident could just take him away like this  Carl wanted to change the towel in his box because he pooped all over this one, we always put him on the bed when we clean the box and he walks from one end to the other pecks at the covers… wish I would have made the damn bed! He jumped out of our hands before but he was always ok. He just rolled off the cover which I in my laziness just shoved in the corner  Maybe if I would have held him he wouldn’t have flown off… I miss him so much  If he would have passed away in his sleep or because of some illness it would be easier to bear. Should try and get some sleep now. Hope it’s ok if I keep posting from time to time, it would mean a lot to me. Thank everyone again for help and support!


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## mr squeaks

Do, please, stay with us!  

There is so much information that can be learned...and the stories...!!!

AND, don't be surprised if...sometime...some day...another little feathered soul will brighten your life... 

Love and Hugs,

_Shi & Squeaks_


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## Reti

We will never know what happen, but as other members mentioned there might have been more going on with little Bo than we thought. Don't blame yourself, you gave him so much love and comfort in his short life and this was not your fault. 
Please visit whenever you like. 

Reti


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## Feefo

Bernadette, please don't blame yourself. I honestly don't think that you did anything wrong. Birds fly and land safely unless there is something very wrong with them. 

Cynthia


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## nikku-chan

Hey Bernadette..that is really sad news.
But if his leg dislocated that easily, then surely there was something more wrong with him that no-one would have been able to fix. If it didn't happen when it did, it would have happened a different time, and due to no fault of yours. Imagine how much harder he would have landed when he started flying.

Pecky has had her share of flying falls, onto hard ground, and never has her leg dislocated. Like people are saying here, it was due to something going on with Bo that no-one knew about. It wasn't your fault. You should be feeling sad by all means, but don't feel guilty. 

Feel good in knowing that you kept Bo safe and happy during his time here. If you didn't find him, he would have probably fallen prey to a predator, and died a horrible death, but instead, thanks to you, he lived happily, and died knowing that you were with him and that he was cared for. You made a huge difference to his tiny life, and I'm sure he knew it.

Hope you're feeling better soon.

xx nikku


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## Athalie

Greetings everyone! Hope I find you and your birds in good health. I’ve been quite ill (still am), developed a nasty throat and chest infection, been very down this past week, both physically and mentally. I miss Bo so much.  first 3 days after he died I even cried at comedies, couldn’t pull myself together. Something happened yesterday that gave me some peace of mind, a tiny bird flew straight in to my bedroom window and got knocked out. I never seen one like it before in my life. We brought it in got it warn gave it some water then it livened up, flew around the room a few times then we took it back out. Carl said it was probably Bo sending me a sign that everything’s ok… don’t know, maybe he just tried to make me feel better  . It was a very odd bird though, very small, about the size of my thumb, brownish colour with bright yellow strips across its head and wings, tiny pointy beak. I took a picture of it but it was with Carls phone so I can only post it tonight when he gets home. 
I’m keeping an eye on Bos parents, the mum must have laid more eggs because I can only see the dad flying around. I’m a bit worried about the nest, I can’t see it but I know where it is(right at the top of a conifer in my garden-the dad kept flying there). Last night there were some strong winds and the top of the conifer just kept bending towards the neighbours garden, he has 3 dogs they might harm the chicks if they fall out of the nest. I checked this morning under the tree, saw some fluffy feathers, about 3 in all. There’s also a strange cat snooping around the garden lately, I’ll have to keep a lookout in case a baby does fall out… think that’s what happened to Bo, there were some strong winds just before I found him. Hope he rests in peace. I will miss him always.
Wish everyone a great weekend! Thank you for letting me post every now and then, means a lot.
BIRDS RULE!
Bernadette


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## Feefo

That visitor sounds like a good omen, Bernadette. I know very little about birds other than pigeons, could it be a female Goldcrest?

http://www.noahsarkgardens.co.uk/Wildlife/Birds/Goldcrest.htm

Cynthia


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## Athalie

Hello Cynthia! Nice to hear from you! Hope you are well! Yes, I think it was a Goldcrest, it looked just like the one on the picture with the yellow stripe on her head. She was very sweet, didn't mind us holding her atall,seemed to like the warmth of our hands. She made me feel better about Bo, gave me some peace. 
All the best to everyone!
BIRDS RULE!


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## Maggie-NC

Athalie, so glad you were able to help the little bird. I have shed buckets of tears I think over the years because of the pigeons/doves we have lost. You don't want to forget them and you will always hold them in a special place in your heart.

I'm sorry you have been so sick. There is a lot of flu going around now. Take care of yourself and, even though right now you don't have a bird to care for, remember that we would love to have you continue as an active member. You may be like some of the rest of us and become a magnet for sick or injured birds. We have several members who don't own birds but that doesn't make a bit of difference.


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## nikku-chan

Hey Bernadette!

Maybe you can somehow tie the trunk of the tree to support it and stop it from bending. Is this possible?

That is amazing about the tiny bird. It sounds a little too strange to just be a coincidence


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## Athalie

Hello Nikku-Chan! Hope you and Peky are well! I had a closer look at the trunk of the tree but I don’t think it would make much difference if I tied it the tree is too tall and slender, I would have to tie the very top end to keep it steady. I will try and get a high enough ladder from somewhere. Just don’t want to disturb the mum. 
This is the picture of that little birdy I helped out the other day. Such a tiny little thing, very sweet  
Great weekend everyone! Take care!


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## Maggie-NC

Bernadette, he is so cute - looks like the little bird in Cynthia's link.


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## nikku-chan

Hey Bernadette, 

That little bird is so cute! His beak is so pointy!
Lucky you found him, or he could have been prey.

It's funny, when one bird comes, plenty more always seem to!

I found another sick pigeon (which i couldn't catch, so i don't know if he made it or not), but it goes to show, being more bird conscious, it's amazing how many there actually are that would have gone unnoticed.

I always look on the ground around my yard and the street and parks when i go for a walk now.

I'm glad that little Bo didn't die in vein. He stirred up a love of birds in you, that will stay with you forever, and i'm sure plenty more birds will benefit from that.

I don't know much about the Doves living in your conifer, but maybe if you leave some seed out, and a bird bath, you guys will slowly make friends.

I'm sure it will attract more birds in the long run.

BIRDS RULE!

hehe


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## Athalie

Hello everyone! 
Think he’s a she, looks like the female one  very sweet indeed! I know what you mean Nikku-Chan, when you say you’re more aware of birds now, I always loved birds, especially baby chickens, we had about 20 each year at our farm and I used to sit outside with them and make noise to ward off magpies. They were my all-time favourite birds till I found Bo, now I have to say I prefer collared doves.
I had another look at the tree today it seems stable enough, it has two other conifers right next to it and seem to support each other. I also found an eggshell while putting fresh seeds out for birds, don’t know if it’s from a collared dove or not, but it was just two steps from where I found Bo. I brought it in, think I’ll keep it  I’ll post a picture of it, looks fresh, had a bit of clear liquid in it and some yellow yoke on the walls. Maybe Bo has a new sis or bro, that would be nice 
Wish everyone a great day and a new week!


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