# How do I find out the pedigree



## jocky (May 1, 2007)

Hey you guys, i just got some pigeons from my cousin but he doesn't know the pedigree of them as well. the birds are banded but i have no idea of finding out.

if you can help please reply.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Pedigrees are like links in a chain. Once the chain is broken they are hard to trace. Start with his birds that they are from. Find out where he obtained his foundation breeders. Maybe they kept better records. You can always start from now. I have researched birds back 10 generations. It still does not make them fly better. It does give me something to do. The internet is a good tool to trace lineage of your birds once you get to a key bird in the line. 

Randy


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## jocky (May 1, 2007)

so what you are saying is if i can't trace it,
then i should start it over again and those pigeons would be the first of their own bloodline.


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## 1pigeon (Apr 5, 2006)

jocky said:


> so what you are saying is if i can't trace it,
> then i should start it over again and those pigeons would be the first of their own bloodline.


Jocky I think if you can't really get/trace there pedigree and those pigeons are really nice i think you should put pedigree aside and start keeping there records from now also keep record how far there youngs can fly and how far there youngs loss..This way you know how far which pair of your pigeons can fly.
I think pedigree is not that important for beginers ..when they start keeping there pigeons record for a while now pedigree is maybe coming to play...
i only trust pedigrees from very reliable lofts..For me if i have a choice i pick winner birds no pedigree over great pedigree birds..See... in the diploma shown how far winner bird has won ..that good enough for me...
You know those pedigree is the paper that owner of the bird written.They can write what ever they want and some of the pedigree might look very nice color full very offical.Those are printed from those ownner printer..

Jocky i only a beginer and pick up a lot of knowledge in this site so wait for other members to answer.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I have pigeons that I can trace back their ancestors 14 generations...it's interesting, but so what ? 

If the birds you have don't produce any winners, then what their pedigree would look like is meaningless. 

For the typical new fancier, and many old ones, the pedigree is just a distraction any how. But you don't know that yet. 

Learn to understand what a good pigeon looks like, and you won't need a piece of paper to make you feel good about them.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I do agree with Warren. My best birds are the ones that fly best. I like pedigrees though. I like to trace the ancestory of my birds. The Peds do not make the bird. I do find a correlation with the performance of the young birds and their parents pedigrees. I can say and I think this goes for Warren also, that the majority if not all of his birds and mine have quality pedigrees. I have a select few birds that have limited pedigrees, but do come from good bloodlines: ie Scott McCallister's 2000 Snow Bird Winning Line. I also think it imperitive that you follow your birds through either breeding records or pedigrees. I think if you have a breeding strategy, tracking your birds is a must. I have also found that when young birds fly better that their parents pedigrees start looking much better. I had no idea who Sonny Scott, Bob Kenny, Desmet, and Piet Valk were until my youngbird won a race. All four great racers and breeders in their own right. I am assuming those who purchased Warren's kits will find that when they get the pedigrees that the birds that flew well have great pedigrees. Also those that did not will also. Having pedigrees also saved me a few years in breeding. Knowing the lineage helped me pair up birds to establish bloodlines. It may be helpful if you know if the birds are related and have like blood so you can test the bloodline. Pedigrees are a useful tool in that regard. 


Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Just a question.
Which Bird would you purchase or pool in a futurity?

Bird A:

Sire Unknown
Dam Unknown

Grandsire Unknown
Granddam Bill's Loft

Bird B:

Sire Equal First Flamingo Classic
Dam Bred Equal First Snow Bird Classic

Grandsire Son of The President
Granddam Art Hees Short Beaks

Just a question

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I do agree with Warren. My best birds are the ones that fly best. I like pedigrees though. I like to trace the ancestory of my birds. The Peds do not make the bird. I do find a correlation with the performance of the young birds and their parents pedigrees. I can say and I think this goes for Warren also, that the majority if not all of his birds and mine have quality pedigrees. I have a select few birds that have limited pedigrees, but do come from good bloodlines: ie Scott McCallister's 2000 Snow Bird Winning Line. I also think it imperitive that you follow your birds through either breeding records or pedigrees. I think if you have a breeding strategy, tracking your birds is a must. I have also found that when young birds fly better that their parents pedigrees start looking much better. I had no idea who Sonny Scott, Bob Kenny, Desmet, and Piet Valk were until my youngbird won a race. All four great racers and breeders in their own right. I am assuming those who purchased Warren's kits will find that when they get the pedigrees that the birds that flew well have great pedigrees. Also those that did not will also. Having pedigrees also saved me a few years in breeding. Knowing the lineage helped me pair up birds to establish bloodlines. It may be helpful if you know if the birds are related and have like blood so you can test the bloodline. Pedigrees are a useful tool in that regard. 


Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Just a question.
> Which Bird would you purchase or pool in a futurity?
> 
> Bird A:
> ...


Randy,

The natural answer is B, and herein lies the problem. The bird is purchased, often sight unseen, and what is the buyer really buying ? A Pedigree. 

The answer I now lean towards, if I can examine the bird, is don't tell me anything about race records or about pedigrees, and I will select the best bird from a loft. Once upon a time, I was convinced that a study of the family tree was required to pair birds, and now I suspect that a pedigree can often hinder a fancier from doing the correct thing. 

The pedigree you would think can, and should be a useful tool. But I am not so sure anymore. I suspect now, that in a majority of situations, the pedigree is a hinderence. This may be a radical departure from my carefully laid out breeding blue prints. I have come to this new line of thinking slowly and with much internal resistance. 

The only way to really determine the truth behind my theory is to set up a real life test situation. In my laboratory scenario, I would provide a colony of birds with no pedigrees. All breeding would be based on individual qualities and retention would be based on individual performance. No pedigrees would force the issue of grading and selection.

I came to this perhaps somewhat radical departure, when I saw and experienced pairing's that were done based on paper and not the bird in the hand. The bird's with less impressive pedigrees, were not given the attention they deserved. In more then a few situations, they were the better birds.

In 2006 I produced an American Ace, quite by accident. A pair which were brother and sister and were not at the top of my radar screen because quite frankly, I did not pay a fortune for their parents. And I saw no point in a brother/sister pairing. They were used as pumpers for a season or two....and you might have guessed what happened... By accident, they were able to raise a round of their own...thus an American Ace was produced. Then I went back and really looked at this pair, and It occured to me...they had all the traits of my other winners, and now pumpers raise their young.

My eyes and hands now are given much more credit then ever before, the pedigrees...at least for me....were blinding me to the real opportunities !


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Some of the worst pedigrees that you can see are those of the Janssen Brothers. Two generations at best and not very legible. Many in Europe who select by performance do not rely on pedigrees like those in the US. The irony is that we seek these birds. Why, because they are the best birds. The pedigrees, if all are honest, reflect birds from these breeders. If I am after a Vanhee, the honest pedigree tells me it is a Vanhee. My birds are mostly down from Vic Miller. How do I know this? I look at the pedigrees. I also know the birds are of quality and down from racing birds not pedigreed birds. I do agree with you Warren. The true test is by the basket. 231, Verbart 46, The Miller Cock, the Zitter, did not become famous birds because of their pedigree. But a bird with them in the bloodline has a better chance of success. Look at those winning big. Warren you won a race because of the birds you chose. Was that choice not an educated one? Let us face it, we can breed birds without pedigrees and be successful. We can all breed good birds without looking at their eyes. I keep pairs together that breed winners. I put small birds with larger birds to breed my vision of the perfect bird. I breed winners to pass on their genes. I also look at pedigrees when pairing up birds. If a fancier wins, I look for birds with their name on the Pedigree, along with names of quality winning racing birds. To me they are a valuable tool. A stray had gread influences on the Janssen birds. The only proof is to fly them. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> The only proof is to fly them.
> 
> Randy



Amen on that one and all the rest there Randy. I only caution, or give my two cents worth...is that piece of paper can often be a tool which works againest the process. That is all the more I will say on the subject.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Your pedigree is your most important tool. NOT the pedigree that came from the bird you bought. How you breed is different then the other person. Pedigree is your breeding record and a record of you birds. Each person devolps or tears down there birds. A sound program shows results. No records no proof of your program. What is a pedigree. Its a loft record used to build a family of birds.


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## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

RE Lee . . . I like the way you put that. A while back, I purchased two white pairs of homers from a breeding company. They were supposed to be from Roger Mortveths bloodline. The pedigrees in no way supported the existance of the pairs. However I started keeping my own breeding record that is more accurate and useful to me, reflecting, pairing, births, performance, etc. The birds were for releasing not racing, so homing was more important to me than speed.

ac


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## jocky (May 1, 2007)

thanks guys, that was great information


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I will put in my last two cents here. A bird with a pedigree vs a bird without. The bird with a pedigree reflects a breeder, but not always, that puts effort into breeding and keeping records. A good example is a member of our club. He obtained stock from the same place I did. He just threw the birds in the loft, keeps no records of his birds, forgets to band birds etc. I keep breeding records, breed by performance, make pedigrees, band all younsters, record their progress and so forth. Many say without a breeding program your stock finds a medium or mediocraty. Pedigrees are a record of a breeding program. I sent a bird to ABQ that won one race and was always the best in the loft. The flier wanted a bird to breed with him. I new through records and was able to choose a hen for the bird. I sent him the same blood cross that one a 300 mile race. Records whether a napkin or a pedigree are a must.

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

OK then,

I will attempt a very fast... last two cents. Less some future reader of my articulation on this subject matter incorrectly assumes that my writing was to suggest that one's breeding system should lack any plan, forethought, records, archives, charts, pedigrees, and let's not forget your breeding and loft software programs, and the secure means of protecting those records from fire and natural disater, etc.

It is a tool in a tool box, of which there are many, and a master breeder is familar with them all. Now here it is.....The master breeder must look at the bird in the hand... in order to make a correct pairing. 

Now for those of you who are looking...don't forget the tools placed into your head...Your eyes...which I have found, when they are focused, contribute more to the selection process...then a record of the birds ancestors. But that is my system, so to each his own.


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## KO Loft (Jul 1, 2007)

*re: pedigree*

I know I am just getting back to raising birds, but when me and my late grandfather raised our birds we kept a list of his bloodlines. He had all his birds imported from reputable breeders in belgium when he started. I was also studying genetics at college so we tried to even breed the birds for certain desirable traits. We won several shows but my grandfather never entered a race. He just loved breeding the birds. We had one breeding stockline though that was what he called common, from michigan stock. He gave birds away to local breeders that wanted parts of his famous lines, and they won races. The bird that did the best though came from the common line. He was the prized bird of the club. His offspring never were champions. 

The bird had heart. No bloodline could deter that. While bloodlines are great and and buying from certain breeders can lead to wins, it comes down to the birds. When we went to something I think called an auction race he was told his birds could be bought back to race later in the season for roughly $20. When they found out he was the producer of the club champion well lets say we stopped bidding when the birds hit $100 (what we brought to buy the whole lot back for LOL). My grandfather laffed. He said Pete Rose is a great ball player, but that doesn't mean his kid and the kids down the block will be lol. Just a note from a recently returned pigeon boy now a pigeon man.

joe


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NOW its coming out. pedigree is your records on family lines. QUALITY is in the produced bird, The minds eye sees the aspects and potenial breeding, far as pairing and producing future qulaity birds. No record you at times get lost in your family line of birds. Yes just because a bird is great its young may not be. BUT All top breeders only produce a small number each year of top birds. The othere 85 to 90 percent are of much less quality. So pedigrees get mis used when buying and selling. Buying you get fooled many times if the breeder sells paper. But breeding you judge by the birds history and its quality to put it in a program. We get to seeing paper and think wow this bird is from great stock. Sure it may be just that. BUT is the bird in hand agreat bird,useful to a program. You become the judge. Problem in pedigrees is they state the bird is xxx strain or xxx strain. It maybe bred down from the family line But if it did not come from the breeder of that family it is a base line bird. Each loft should look at what they have to work with what they can do with those birds. Keep good records keep the key birds get rid of the rest A bird or pair that does not in 3 years produce birds as good or better needs to go a pair or bird that in 3 years produces birds better can be retired or taken out of a program. As you now have offspring that is better. That is about the only way to go forward in breeding. Or you stay where you are or fall behind. Now that pedigree loft record comes into play each year as you pair your birds and hold your extras. Extrats are birds you need to keep but do not have the right mate or will use later. . 10 cocks 10 hens do not make 10 pair. IF the birds do not compliment each other. So Its an art to breed. And seperates the different people. AND lets not forget training racers. A good trainer with lesser birds can win aginst a poor trainer with better birds. Part of the whole is the complete program you set down and use.


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## KO Loft (Jul 1, 2007)

*re last post*

Now lee you have it it out of the park. One thing that has advanced is the way to keep records. Use of the computer is a must. I remember my grandfather had me keeping his records in the same notebook for years. Keeping records of all the crossess and who was producing was difficult. He knew in his head but hard to show that to others. Now you can use excel to keep these records and then you with a click of the button generations of breeding, results, and picture that tell the story are available.
In regards to pedigrees, be careful where you spend your money. I remember a guy who paid in the 80s $500 for a bird just because of the bloodline from an international breeder. Other champion stock was available but he said its a (insert pedigree here). Value is the eye of the beholder. A loft here in PIGEON TALK could produce better strain of birds but never get the credit that the other breeders do. Each is capable of producing the Seabiscuit of pigeons if you just ask.

joe


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## homefirst (May 23, 2007)

I love the topic . I also love a challenge "the name I chose for this site alone is going to take a hole lot of hard work to own on up to". Just starting out and my goal is to one day step into my loft pick up a cock and hen put them together and breed quility young. I know that's not something I can be tought it's something that I must feel over time in my own loft with my own birds using bits and peices of knowledge gained from folks such as yourselves as well as trial and error . As I strive to reach my goal I will be shore to keep honest records of my breeding . When buying my birds I didn't rely on pedigees , however they do look good on paper and in the hand . I'm going to take this time to say hello to everyone on the site and thank you for all the knowledge you share . In closing , I'm sure everone will agree that if breeding 1st place to 1st place hached 1st place there would be no need to compete .


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

To tell the real truth many people do not take the time to stick with a family of birds ,in the racing circles in the U S A. Those that do and do it well stay at the top of the charts year after year. Pigeon raising is not that easy. But fun. To learn more about your birds you have to compete aginst other birds see other birds Or soon you birds look real great to you. But they have not been tested. Learning from others is great As you can learn so much. Meeting others in the sport is great. I used to listen not say much when I was around a person I felt was a great breeder. As to me its best to learn and know more rather then to talk and know less. A good breeder will help you if you listen and learn. But when you begin to not hear any more you fail to really learn. I thank those that came befor me and the ones that helped teach me what I learned. Clubs and friends in the sport Are a needed tool. Taking the time the years of breeding and learning will only pay off when you test your birds You see what you have done right and where you may need more work. And its each year. Cost is what you can pay to start. A few birds that help you is better then getting a bunch that can not And they are really cheaper. No need to buy every year slowly build that loft. That part SLOWLY is hard for many as everybody want to win When it takes time to really get there and any hope of staying there. The best get beat but they come back to win agin. The lucky win but loose agin. Your birds is what you have to work with figure them out the best you can Heck might just need to improve your feeding program. What i am saying is small things at times make a change for the better.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Whats in a name?

Look at Ipigeon and tell me whether people are bidding on birds, names or pedigrees. Look at the Texas Center Auction. I think this hits the nail right on the head when talking about pedigrees and how ignorant many are about which bird is best, which bird is from a true bloodline, or which bird is the so called farmed bird?
http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAuctionPro.asp

I will leave you with a few sites to help educate you.

http://www.herbots.be/
http://www.pipa.be/

I will never know how Ganus can buy the same birds that are shown on this site, breed them and sell them for five times the money. Crazy Al's bird is at $100, probably because you cannot read the pedigree. Limbourg who? Fabry I think must be a hair dresser. Isn't Van Lint the stuff that soccer moms clean out of the car? The bird of Gene Hearl actually is an offspring from a Winner. Without handling the bird these guys are bidding $1000. I will admit that I have birds from Ganus stock. But for that bird to be valued 10x higher site unsean is ludicrous. You look at the pedigree, son of, uncle of, siter to, grandam to, father 1st. Barry and Mike are paying for their advertising. Warren, I am starting to believe.

Randy


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## homefirst (May 23, 2007)

I agree re lee . When I spoke of a challenge I was speaking of the sport of racing pigeons as well as the art of raising and breeding competitive birds . I am happy to have found this site with so many breeders willing to share knowledge . By no means do seek over nite sucsess infact I am starting small . I have two pair of birds from two diferent families that I bought from a breeder that I've been watching for three years now . One pair from his black family and the other from freind of his grizzle family . I have chosen to cross the two in hopes of breeding a family of birds I can be proud to call my own for future generations . I am eager to learn all I can learn about the birds however I don't think anyone can truly grasp the concept without taking those teachings into there own loft on the daily bases. I can teach a kid to use a paint brush but until they they feel the stroke there's going to be some cat faces . So if you guys keep teaching it'll make learning alot easier for me and others like me because no everyone in the sport is willing to teach . keep em flying keep em coming.........Home that is.......


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What a pedigree shows to a buyer IF understood. Is that the bird being bought has raced in in such and such race aginst x amount of bird placed at such and such position Its parents were raced and placed its other ancesters were also . SO not only the bird in hand did well but family line showed it was bred down from winning birds. NOW young birds have NO proof to how they did no race record just a family breeding showing they came from winning birds. Young birds are a gamble any time you buy them. Stock birds with a record show proof on how they performed. SURe you can go to a loft buy a bird Without any paper and do very well breeding that bird. But you need to know your pigeons to know what you are looking for and at. Names sell here in the USA. Many are blinded by a name. After years of breeding and raising pigeons one can go to many a loft hand pick by seeing and handling the birds and pick the top birds in that loft .Never seeing a pedigree. But pedigrees are important for breeding YOUR birds as you have the base line info, you need to breed with. A pedigree from another loft tells you about the birds history. But you have to fit the bird into your program. Buy untested young birds for future breeding its a big gamble The breeder can only say thre background you do the testing. If by choice one should buy mature 3 year old RACED birds and older. They have been tested relults recorded You have better a better chance of producing better birds. The idea first should to be to improve you loft, Then by improveing your family of birds you perform better. There your birds you make your own family of birds Bred down from whatever source you start out with. Your record should be what counts. Never cross to many lines Or you take much longer to notice results. 2 to 3 family lines to start out with Is good enough. 1 is better. Many will never see or know there prepotent birds Not manyt are ever raised. But those that find them build off those key birds And have great results for years to come. 1 bird can change a whole loft. If we was so lucky to raise 1 bird per pair each year that was a top bird IT would be great. But it does not happen. But those few prepotent birds Do this for you Great hens are a key to breeding also With out them its hard to keep going. Sure a breeder can not keep records and know each of there birds and what they came down from. But over the years one does forget. Loft record / pedigree no matter how its done makes for a better memory. We start with no real pedigree and build as we breed. Or we start with some body elses and build from there.


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## homefirst (May 23, 2007)

Very nicely put . I hate to turn this into my own little lesson , however before buying my young birds I was fully aware of what a pedigree was and that I was taking a gamble by buying them for breeding . My thinking on the subject was while purchasing young birds for breeding would be a gamble ,purchasing proven racers would be less of a gamble yet still a gamble and puchasing proven racers who are also proven breeders would be even less of a gamble yet still a gamble . So , even though the odds go up there will always be some gamble involved . I don't want anyone to think I'm making light of anything that's been said ,because I'm taking it all in with high value . In fact , after that last post by re lee I think I'm going to breed my birds straight before doing any crossing if at all . All in all I feel good about my gamble and looking forward to the ward work of the art and fun of the sport .


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