# Frillback Grizzle, is it different to Grizzle?



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Some people say grizzle on a frillback could be different to normal grizzle but i don't think so

There seems to be two types of grizzle on frillbacks or it just appears that way, maybe its the pattern underneath, barred birds with two genes of grizzle look very white (colour around the neck and on the bar), cheque and t-cheque birds look darker (more colour on the shield) and with only one gene grizzle they look even darker again.

Its hard to explain but I started with only **** grizzle, **** barred and thats all i bred for years (in blue and red) somtimes producing whites and storks, then i borrowed a bird which was a blue grizzle hen but very dark blue and not a lot of white.

Suddenly all my offspring looked like cheques or t-cheques or they have sooty or dirty and maybe heterozygous for grizzle. also i noticed bronze in my blues when you spread the wing (i dont like), but maybe improves the reds ?

I wish there was a colour chart for frillbacks, a site that had photos of every type/arrangment/combination of colour/gene/modifier with explanation below.

At the show its either a blue grizzle or not. most people couldnt tell you what pattern is under the grizzle or if it has modifiers or even if it could be **** or hetro for grizzle.

Also I have heard frillback grizzle could be a different grizzle to the common grizzle found on other pigeons,... from my crossbreeding (to west of englands) this year I havn't noticed any difference from my grizzle racers or grizzle Serbians which I also breed.

Mostly I am just interested in other peoples opinions on 'Frillback grizzle' if there is such a thing. 

Also are frillbacks hard to come by because most breeders are culling birds that arn't as curly and only keeping the best for themselves and if they sold too many then they would become common and not as pleasurable to keep? hmmm


Luke


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm confused as to why you think it's any different? Homozygous grizzles do have much more white than hets. Bars are lighter than checks, checks are lighter than t-patterns (which can look almost completely un-phased by the grizzle). Usually on dark checks the grizzle mostly shows in the head region. Sooty can create false checks on barred birds and does effect how the grizzle looks. Bronzing is very common in blue grizzles, although a lot of it usually moults out into white and normal blue. But some birds do retain a lot of bronze, those of which are referred to as "torts" (tortoiseshells) by many fanciers.


The only difference I have seen is that many grizzled frillbacks seem to have a lot of white on the head and not so much on the shield to match it. But that happens in any other grizzled bird as well, especially checks, t-patterns, and spreads. It has probably been selectively bred to keep up that trait. Or could be influenced by a piebald gene.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I only heard it could be different from frillback breeders.they are an old breed and no one really knows the full history. 
I thought the piebald - baldhead marking created by grizzle was a bit odd too,.. maybe thats why they are different


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## Dianne (Dec 5, 2011)

*color pictures*

Luke, if you ever find a site that shows all the different color pictures and patterns that frillbacks can be I would very much like the link. I am in an area where there are no known to me pigeon fanciers that can help me.
Dianne


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

This is all i know...

I think when people speak of the difference between frillback grizzle and normal grizzle... well apparently frillback grizzle is normal grizzle genetically but there are modifiers that change it.


With 'Frillback Grizzle" a breeder could breed two grizzle frillbacks together and produce offspring that geneotype are homozygous grizzle but their phenotype make them appear like a heterozygous grizzle. 

No has ever mention what those modifiers are.

thats all i know...there hasn't been much work with frillbacks and exactly what is up with their different grizzle


and i agree with MaryofExeter, the distribution of white is different in frillbacks, but again i blame modifiers

sorry if i am stating the obvious...


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## Dianne (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks so much for your thoughts, 

I sure wish someone would start a web link of all kinds of colors and patterns and what different birds look like before and after molting, those with modifiers and how they progress in pattern after a year or two and so on.

Would it be possible to start a webpage with a common password that everyone could add there pigeon pictures and how they progress over the years and show pattern changes and give thoughts as to what modifiers are in play? There just isn't anything that I have found specifically geared to the frillback.

What are your thoughts and can we do it?
Dianne


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

We can try, we might as well, we can lose nothing by trying. It will take time. Don't know how much we can help but...we don't breed grizzle, and sell most of the grizzled birds we raise.

Worth a shot anyways, my dad and i are good with genetics so we can help there.


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## Dianne (Dec 5, 2011)

That would be great, I know you have a lot of pictures of your birds and very interesting genetics.
dianne


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

I think i gave you the genotypes of the Grizzled Hen's Parents, but i don't know if i have mentioned that the father also has the "dirty" modifier gene


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Lots of frillback colors......mostly ungrizzled but two grizzled birds there too (both het).


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## Dianne (Dec 5, 2011)

I think you did, but I want to say again what a nice group of pigeons you have.
Dianne


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Start a new thread for Frillback colours.
I have one homozygous blue grizzle without any white in the nest, just a bit of grey in the cheeks. Its father looks much the same. I will breed the father to a bluebar racer to find out if he is bar, check, or t-check.


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## Dianne (Dec 5, 2011)

Good idea, please post some pictures with the new thread. Doesn't grizzle have to have white?
Dianne


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Most frillbacks are grizzled. I showed some pics of ours above as we do have non-grizzled. There was/is some question whether this is the same grizzle gene in frillbacks as is found in most pigeon breeds or if there is a distinctive "frillback grizzle" that is different. Most frillbacks look almost "baldheaded" with the white confined around the head. The other thing that is odd in frillbacks is that usually double dose ("pure" or homozygous) grizzled birds are usually much whiter than those with single copies. Blue based pigoens (nonfrillbacks) with a double dose of grizzle are usually stork marked (all white with dark wing tips). However, nearly all frillbacks are pure homozygous grizzle....and the blues, for example, are not stork marked!! Luke you have heard Steve say that most frillbacks are barred....though they don't look like it to me as most have a lot of color in the shield area.....look at those reds that win shows!. Frillbacklover and I personally have bar, t-pattern, and spread in our little group but I can't comment on "most frillbacks". Luke I thought Grats (?) or others seem to think that the grizzle in frillbacks is regular grizzle, but one or more of the modifiers (sooty?) cause it to behave as it does. You are probably learning much more with your crosses, though, and can teach the rest of us a thing or two about their genetic makeup. Don't know why the birds are not mroe readily available.....we had a heck of a time finding/getting birds....seems hard to "break in" to the network. We are doing our best to share experience/knowledge/birds. Luke always love your input on the subject of frillbacks......you are doing a lot of good for this breed!


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I made this thread over a year ago and I still don't know about the grizzle.
I think most frillbacks have sooty. Almost every cross I have made I get sootys (false checks). 
There were two lines brought into the country the first lot were light grizzle and from Australia, the blues are light bluebar with lots of white and the reds are redbar with lots of white. 
The second lot, dark grizzles from USA bred by Tom McCaig, apparently a bloodline from Germany, they are bluebar the blue is dark and there is no white. And red t-checks with white/greyish grizzle only on the head
When you breed one to the other you get dark birds with a small amount of white flecking.
Dirty makes blue dark and seams to hide grizzle. So it may be dirty which changes classic grizzle.
No one here in NZ has been crossing the strains, there's a small number of people with frillbacks here and most of them have the lighter first line and have had them for a long time and hardly traded any birds. A veery small number have Toms line. I've been experimenting with the two strains and other breeds with all sorts of results.
One thing I havn't done which I want to is cross what I belive is t-check frillback to a bluebar racer.
I havn't asked Grats about the base pattern he may not have t-checks, I havn't seen his reds but some pics of red grizzle winners and what Rolly has looks to me like t-check. It's like they didn't know what the germans were selling them. I have seen the germans showing really nice red bars and really nice red t-checks but no blue t-checks.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Doh! I should look at the dates. Did not realize this was an old thread!! Still fun to reexamine the genetics there, and you have more than a year of additional oberservations with your crosses. I agree that those red grizzles look like t-checks......though I dont' know for sure either!


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