# Joy and sorrow



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Back at home in Epinal, France, I was happy to discover a nest on the floor of one of my balconies with two lovely pigeonots about three weeks old. This was 3 days ago. For the moment I have only seen one parent come to feed them so I gather it is the father as I suppose the mother was already busy with another nest somewhere else. But this morning it seemed to me one of the babies had adopted a strange actitude as if he was sleeping with his head on the edge of the nest is eyes closed. When their father came to feed them and that little one didn't move I realized something was definitely wrong. He was dead of course. On his back at the base of his neck there was a big hollow depression and his beak was open. Could it be that his father tread on him accidentally and broke his neck? What do you think, does this happend often? 

I feel terribly sorry for the other baby who is now alone. When I removed the dead bird he only flapped his wings a litte but did not try to bite me, he didnt even make a noise. I have named him Joy since his brother/sister is evidently my sorrow.

The nest is clean inside but around it the droppings have accumulated. I haven't dared do any cleaning as these birds do not know me yet. In my previous experiences I was present from the time the eggs were laid so both the parents and the babies knew me well. What do you think, should I clean around the nest?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Gladys! I have so little experience of squabs that I can't clarify anything, but when I had a wood pigeon being raised by a feral couple the baby died under its foster father. The father had one foot missing and at the time I wondered whether he could have accidentally stepped too heavily on the baby.

I hope Joy thrives.

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Gladys, I'm really sorry to read about the baby. I know you were excited to come home and see another nest on your balcony. It is hard to determine what happened. I know that sometimes when a pigeon dies, whether it is a baby or adult, they will stretch out their necks and hang them over the side of their nest just before they pass on. I have often thought they were just trying to get an additional breath.

I know you will keep an eye on Joy. Could you intervene and raise her if necessary? You know we would help all we could.


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Thanks Cynthia and Maggie,

Of course should it be necessary I would raise Joy myself and I know you people would guide me as necessary. For the moment Joy is fed by at least one of the parents and seems to be in good health. However both these babies looked to me as being less lively than those I've seen grow in my balcony in the past. For instance they never got so excited or made loud noises when the parents approached them to feed them. I remember in the past I would always know when the parents came to feed them because of the fuss the little ones would make.

Another thing that intrigues me is that some of the droppings around the nest are an unusual color, like a bit rose or rusty. Could this be blood? At first I thought it had to do with the food they got from their parents but since one of the babies died I have begun to wonder. Now it is 9 o'clock in the evening but tomorrow I am going to clean all the poop around the nest and see if the coloured droppings reappear. 

Finally, I haven't dared putting the plants out in that balcony in case the change would chase the parents. What do you think. Had I better wait? 
Sorry to be so ignorant but I would hate to do something to endanger the life of my little survivor. Gladys


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It might intimidate them, even though you aren't really moving the youngster, it probably would be best to wait to put the plants out to be on the safe side.

I'm SO sorry to hear about the other baby.


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hello everybody,
Here I am fretting over Joy. He/she doesn't seem to react or behave like the other babies of his age I've known in the past. He never squeaks or make any other sound even when fed or when I move the nest around to change the plastic sheet under the nest. His eyes look bright enough though. I have been back four days now and I only saw who I presume to be the father three times which of course doesn't mean that he hasn't come when I was not looking. What really bothers me is that his droppings are not normal either in shape or colour.
They are black with a pink/rusty stain on them. I have never seen that before or heard you people describe anything like that. Today I cleaned all around the nest in the hope that those droppings were those of the baby who died. But unfortunately they have reappeared.

I have not been able to find any avian vet in the region here. Today is a holiday here but tomorrow I will 'phone a place in a town some kmts. from here where they sell birds and will ask them if they can direct me to an avian vet somewhere, otherwise I have no way to have the poop analysed.

Does anybody have any idea why the droppings should be pink? Perhaps this is a common occurrence I don't know about? I suppose that if the other baby hadn't died I wouldn't be so apprehensive. I will very much appreciate your opinions. Thanks a lot. Gladys


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Gladys, I don't know but it could have something to do with what the parents are feeding. I could also be blood. One of my birds had orange poops yesterday after she had eaten some carrots.
The baby's demeanor is concerning.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Gladys, I'm sorry Joy is appearing to not feel well. The colored poop could be like Charis suggested - food the parents are feeding. About all I can advise is to keep a close eye on how often they are feeding it. Is it in a protected area? How cool is it where you are? Are you able to take a picture of the poops for us to look at?


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hello everyone,
I have taken a photo of Joy's droppings and one of Joy but I don't remember anymore how to send them to you. Today I spent the whole morning telephoning all the vets in all the towns around Epinal where I live but even those who consider themselves avian vets will not take care of wild birds (read pigeons). I suggested that I would not bring the bird but would only ask them to do a fecal test............nothing doing. I will not waste your time with all the nonsense I have had to listen to whilst trying to convince them.

How often Joy is fed (by the one parent I have seen) I really don't know. He comes between 10 and 11 in the morning for sure but I have never seen him at any other time. Joy left his nest for the first time today but stayed right against it. I come out to him several times a day and talk to him quietly. Fortunately we are having a very mild spring (12°C at night and 25°C daytime something like 50 and 75 Farenheit). I would gladly bring him in at night but I am not sure he would appreciate it and then what if the parents come early in the morning and not find him? In normal times I get up about 7 but after my recent long trip from South America and the five hours difference between the two countries I'm still trying to catch up. Also trying to catch up with the mail which has accumulated during my 6 months absence. At this moment is well past midnight. 

I haven't been out of the appartement since I arrived 5 days ago but tomorrow I will get some grains and try to feed the little one in case he is not been sufficiently fed. I will have to be discrete about it so as not to attract other pigeons. You might remember the bother I had before when I was reported by a neighbour for feeding the pigeons on the balcony.

Well I think it's time to bring this litany to a close. Good night to you all. Thanks for listening. Gladys


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm sorry to hear that Joy might not be doing so well, Gladys.

I hope your supplemental feeding will help!!

Please keep us posted and wishing you and Joy

Love and Hugs

Shi


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Here is some updating on Joy. After some vomit and/or diahrrea worrying episodes Joy started to progress slowly but surely. I have been supplementing dad's feeding with a grain mixture for doves that I had inside his nest in the hope these grains will not attract other pigeons or I will be in trouble. I must say Dad doesn't mind helping himself to it right under my nose. 

I still think that Joy is not acting according to his age. He spends all day long inside the nest, doesn'show any curiosity for his sorroundings. He ony leaves his nest at night to sleep against the balcony door on a hard surface. He can stand and walk, even run after his father but what he likes best is staying right inside his nest. He lets me move the nest to one side with him inside when I change the plastic sheet under it. He squeaks so gently that it is almost inaudible. Doesn't make any other noise and doesn't show any signs of hostility or fear. He should be flying in a few days time but I just cannot image him being ready for it. In short, he looks healthy, he eats well, he can stand and walk and flap his wings but at almost five weeks of age he rarely leaves his nest during the whole day and when he does it is to place himself against the balcony door very close to the nest. Is there such a thing as a bird's depression?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Gladys,

I'm so sorry to hear Joy doesn't seem up to par. Have you tried to examin him closely and check down his throat? Do you see any lesions? Is there any stringy mucus inside? Does his wings seem off (one hang differently from the other) or is there any swelling around wing or leg joints? Does his keel bone stick out? 

Without really seeing anything its really hard to even try to imagine what could be ailing him. The color of the poop is definitely off, I wonder if this youngster has worms....


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Gladys, I'm glad Joy is still hanging in there. Isn't it amazing that he knows to go to a more secure area to sleep - even at his young age. I agree with Treesa that you should probably check his little throat for any cheesy looking deposits. Maybe with the father helping himself to the dove mix, the baby will get the benefit from better food. I sure hope so.

Thank you so much for the update. He has been in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

I forgot to mention that the poops have been quite normal for a while. I will try to pick up the courage to examine Joy. I am so afraid to upset him now that he seems to trust me. Is it a common occurrence that young birds beg food from a pigeon other than his parents? It happened yesterday after dad chased away a strange pigeon and the stranger came back later. It is particularly surprising to me because Joy took a long time to start begging from his own parents. Live and learn?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have actually had other couples try to feed another one's youngster, I have never seen any youngster in my loft beg from any bird other then a parent. Maybe they do out in the wild, sounds like he may be quite hungry.


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hmm........Not hungry I don't think, if something reassures me it is that he eats all the grain mixture I give him/her without any hesitation. As I mentioned before what has had me wondering is the fact that he stays put in his nest practically all day long. And then he squeaks rarely and so softly one can hardly hear him. Someone has told me recently that I musn't compaire the different babies I have had in the past since there may be differences in their development as it happends with human babies or other animals. I will try to be patient for a few more days and see. He CAN stand, walk and flap his wings quite high. Thanks for listening. Gladys


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

A little updating. Yesterday Joy walked away from his nest for the first time!! Up till now, having turned 5 weeks of age, he stayed all day long in his nest or on the floor but leaning against it. Yesterday he even went up to the edge of the balcony and stayed there a long time leaning out and scaring the life out of me. He hasn't yet tried to fly even to land on the compost bags on the balcony but I think this will come soon now. He looks fine, his droppings are excellent. His Dad is still visiting. I really think he is in good health now even if his/her development seems slower than usual. He still doesn't "talk" very much, his chirping, when there is any, is very soft almost inaudible. A personality question, why not? Gladys


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Gladys, this is a wonderful update on little Joy. He is beginning to get restless and probably wants to soar in the sky like his parents. I'm so glad he is doing well.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Great news, Gladys!

Thanks for keeping us updated! 

Sending Hugs and Scritches

_Shi, Squeaks, Dom & Gimie_


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

*Joy is no more*

I am terribly sorry to have to announce Joy"s death which occurred yesterday in a most unexpected horrible manner. In the morning Joy was as usual, eager to inspect the world perched on the balcony edge and I was expecting her to take the "plunge" at any moment. The poop was perfect and so was his/her appetite. But sometime in the afternoon I came out to the balcony and founf Joy all puffed up in the corner she usually spends the night. There were drops of blood splattered all over the place, on the plastic sheet I used under the nest and some 50 centimeters up one of the balcony doors. There wasn't any blood or injury on her body and no feathers anywhere. But wouldn't eat her evening meal and stayed in his/her favourite corner. Joy was sleeping when I left the balcony but when I came back a little while later Joy was spread out lying on her tummy and her beak was in the water dish, it had vomited some blood in the water and was dead. I cannot imagine what happened. The fact that her poops were normal makes me think that the problem was in the upper tract that a vessel in the oesophagus or the lungs had ruptured. I have always that this little bird never squeaked or made gutural sounds of any kind. I am giving all these details in the hope that someboby is familiar with this kind of problem and could tell me about it. It wouln't bring little Joy back but I think it would help me to understand. It seems so unfair that this should happen after having overcome all her old problems and only a little while before it seemed in perfect health. Forgive the length of this message I am too upset to be discreet. Gladys


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Oh NO! What a catastrophe!

I am so sorry, Gladys!!

Is there a possibility that some predator got him/her? Maybe injuries _under_ the feathers that you couldn't see?

Sending healing love and hugs at this very sad time!

Shi


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Gladys, I usually "jump right on" your posts about Joy because I have been so interested in her. This was a shock to me and I know you feel terrible. I honestly can't think of what may have caused her to die in this way. The 2 or 3 that we have had that bled from the mouth usually had cancer (according to our vet) but I find it hard to believe as young as Joy was that this was the case.

In any event, just know that I am so very sorry and if I could reach you I would give you a big hug. 

This little baby was known to people on several continents and everyone was pulling for her.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm so very sorry. I know it was a shock. It's hard to say what might have been wrong for sure but maybe worms?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Gladys,

I'm so sorry to hear about Joy, and the shock and pain you must have suffered upon finding her. Perhaps it was internal, as you say, or even worm/parasites in her crop.

You are in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Thank you all of you,
I'm feeling better now. For sometime after the events I couldn't get out of my head the sight of Joy trying to drink and ................... at the time I felt so sick I thought my legs would not hold me up. I have sinnce, cleaned the balcony thoroughly and scrubbed the nest. I put my plants out which I hd postponed not to risk upsetting Joy's parents with the change of scenery.

But I am writing to comment on the latest developments on the balcony. The morning after Joy's death his Dad, Mom and a third pigeon came to the balcony at 6:"à in the morning and stayed there some 30 minutes cooing. I was surprise to see Mom because I hadn't seen her for a long time. Now then, since then the third pigeon (which by the way looks very much like Joy) has continued to visit the balcony all by himself and stays for a while cooing. He looks young, not a baby, but smaller and more slender than Joy's parents. It may sound silly but this mysterious visitor brings a bit of comfort to me. Can anybody explain what is going on? Thanks for listening. Gladys


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

You know, Gladys, as sentimental as this sounds, I believe that this pigeon is there to offer you comfort. Things work in mysterious ways and I try not to question them too closely but accept them. I expect the mother pigeon had moved on to start a new nest and the father was caring for Joy which is normal. This young pigeon may well be a sibling to Joy from the nest prior to Joy and Sorrow. The father pigeon may have let them both know Joy had passed away and they came for a final visit.


----------



## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Gladys,

I am so sorry that you lost Joy. I too think it was her older sibling with the father.


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Hello everybody, 
Reading what happened to Charis's birds because of eating some insulation material reminded me that I had seen Joy eat or at least peck at some mould on the outside edge of my balcony. I did then some research and learnt that some types of moulds cause a disease called Aaspergillosis. I am quoting here a part of what I read about this disease: "Relatively rare in humans Aspergillosis is a common and dangerous infection in birds. A fungus ball in the lungs may cause no symptons and be discovered only by chest X-Ray or IT MAY CAUSE COUGHING UP BLOOD AND OCCASIONALLY SEVERE, EVEN FATAL BLEEDING" I didn't see Joy cough up the blood but the splutering all around and up the balcony door could be explained that way. 

It is not only that I wish I could know what happened to Joy but I wonder if you people are aware of the danger mould may be to the pigeons. In any case I am
going to clean the fungus on the balcony. Does any on know the best way to eliminate fungus? Many thanks for your time. Gladys


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Pisciottano said:


> It is not only that I wish I could know what happened to Joy but I wonder if you people are aware of the danger mould may be to the pigeons. In any case I am going to clean the fungus on the balcony. Does any on know the best way to eliminate fungus? Many thanks for your time. Gladys


I think a fairly strong solution of bleach and water would do the trick .. perhaps one cup of bleach in three cups of water ??

Terry


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Gladys, without knowing very much about how they get fungal infections, I kinda doubt that she got it from that source unless maybe it was something she could actually pick up and eat as opposed to just pecking around. I will be interested in reading what others think.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Gladys, I am so sorry to read of Joy's passing. 

We don't have any mould in the aviary or anything else that might cause aspergillosis, but about two weeks ago I found one of our wood pigeons dead on his overnight roost ( a large flower pot). There was a glob of blood about a foot away from him, blood running down the flower pot and his mouth was also full of blood. Other than that he looked he appeared to be in excellent condition.

Cynthia


----------



## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Cynthia,
I am sorry that you too have gone through the awful experience of finding a bird in such terrible state. I gather that you don't know what happened or you would be saying so. You never told us about it, kept it all to yourself. You are a strong courageous girl, Cynthia, I have a lot of admiration for you. I am happy to see that you are posting more regularly now as I take it as a sign that you are getting better. KEEP IT UP and take care. Gladys


----------

