# Deformed beak



## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

Hello all, I'm new to this forum. Hugo and I rescued two orphan baby pigeons 24 days ago (we're in Horsham in the South of England, U.K.) - the nest had fallen from the tree onto a bush below and the babies were on the ground - no sign of any parents around, even an hour later. I've been nurturing them both ever since, feeding warm, mashed up corn and seeds and both birds are doing well. 'Gannet', the larger of the two, now spends the day in the aviary with a kestrel we rescued 2 or 3 months ago and which has obviously been hand-reared, as it will only eat defrosted dead white mice and shows no interest in Gannet. 'Lulu', however, is only half the size of Gannet. They weighed 90 grammes and 170 grammes respectively first thing in the morning after having them 5 days, and two weeks later weighed 116g and 216g respectively. I think Lulu will remain a mini-pigeon and won't be able to be released, whereas Gannet is rearing to go... he is currently learning to peck for seeds, but still wants me to feed him! Lulu's beak seems rather deformed - the lower part is longer, so the hooked upper part can't close over the lower bit and her beak is always slightly open. She tends to drink a lot (warm liquid which the corn has soaked in) - is this because her throat is dry, I wonder, from having her 'mouth' open all the time? Just wondered if anyone had any advice about this - she hasn't learned to peck yet, and may find it difficult anyway when she does. She is a lot scrawnier than Gannet, who is already quite handsome, but she seems happy in the parrot cage she currently lives in. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That sounds like a unique symptom. Usually when we get a deformed beak, it's because there is a canker (not the same as cancer) affecting the growth somewhere. Canker is a common word for "Trichomoniasis", which is an infection by a flagellating protozoa called a "Trichomonad". Some pigeons don't seem to be bothered as much as others. In many cases, you can open the beak and see deposits that look like curds of yellow cheese here and there.

The cure is an antiprotozoal like Metronidazole, Secnidazole, Ronidazole and others. It's not so easy to come by but we have some wonderful members in your area that you can get in touch with who can probably help. Now, it's only a chance that this is the problem so you're going to have to check down its beak to see if it might be and even that isn't proof positive one way or the other but it's the simplest thing that you can do for starters. I'll alert those members to come read your thread.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Are these wood pigeons then?

I believe one of our woodie experts is on right now, perhaps she will see your thread, if not I will notify her.


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## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

Yes, they are wood pigeons. Sorry, but I don't know how to attach a picture!

Diana.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have one that you can attach to an email? If so, then email it to me.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, here's a link to a picture of LuLu, the smaller one:



...and here's a link to a picture of Gannet, the normal one:



Now, looking at the bird, it looks like there is something major wrong with more than just the beak due to the feathers being all wrong. I'd tend to think of a nutritional problem or an absorption problem. So, I'd still worry about canker and medicate for that but I'd also try to acquire some Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula and learn how to tube-feed the little guy. If that's going to help, then you're not going to see results for a pretty long time (several weeks) and you may never resolve the beak problem. Personally, I think that the bird can do okay even with the beak like that IF we can resolve the larger health picture.

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi,

Is Gannet separated in the aviary from your Kestrel?

Is the deformed beak out of alignment at all? As Pidgey says, deformed beaks are generally caused by something inside the beak - Cynthia and I have birds where that has happened, but generally the top is longer than the bottom.

Wondering if these are woodpigeon or collared dove babies. **OK, I see they've been ID'd since I started**

Have you been able to check what the poops are like - color and consistency? That can be a starting point for spotting possible problems, thinking particularly of Lulu, which may contribute to her slow growth.

You may find some vitamin supplement or a liquid calcium supplement could help Lulu. I get it from Gem Supplements over at Chichester. 

John


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## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

Lulu has been losing several feathers recently and is looking particularly tatty today, when I took the picture, but then Gannet has been losing feathers too - at least as many as Lulu - although he still looks fine and handsome. I can 'shovel' food down Lulu quite easily when she is hungry - I don't need to tube feed her any longer, like I did for the first few days. I can't see anything nasty (cankerous) inside her mouth. Her beak is in alignment, i.e. neither the upper or lower part is to one side - it's just that the two parts don't 'fit' together and close properly. We had a tame barn owl living with us for 5 years and he had a similar problem, plus a couple of other deformities, but he managed fine with his food, ripping defrosted day-old chicks apart... but that's another story!! Both Gannet and Lulu's poops seem normal. Gannet is NOT separated from Kes (kestrel) in the aviary, but I take him in at night to be with Lulu and there is no problem at all with Gannet and Kes being together. I've obviously been keeping a watch on them since putting them together 3 or 4 days ago. Even our two cats, who often chase birds, aren't interested in the pigeons.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello and welcome!

I think that beak deformities can happen without an underlying disease. As John mentioned we have pigeons with an "overshot" upper beak, which means that it continues to grow and needs trimming. The problem with this happening in the lower beak is that there is a greater danger of a bleed when it is trimmed. However, it is difficult to see in the photo but there is a lumpiness about Lulu's throat, so I would open the mouth and have a good look...report any yellow growths back!

I don't think that a kestrel would tackle a wood pigeon unless it was very hungry, but it could be stressful for a wood pigeon to be confronted with "predator eyes"...if he gets used to them he might be at a disadvantage in the wild. I would consider separating them if possible. Of course, the common use of "predator eyes" as a deterrent means that a lot of pigeons are used to them now.

BTW, Pidgey, how did you manage to post the webshot photo directly on the forum rather than just a link? Handy tips always welcome!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Cynthia, 

They changed webshots recently and when I upload a photo, there is a box with four different types of links to that picture provided to the right of it. I simply highlight, copy and paste that link. In the Reply text editor, it just looks similar to any link--all text--but it somehow turns into the little image when you actually post the reply.

So, I don't know--it just works that way. I think if you wanted to go back and do earlier pictures the new way, you'd need to get to those pictures in your webshots account and copy-and-paste the new link style as an edit to older posts.

There is one more possibility that I didn't think of, though--I've actually paid for the Premium account and it may be different than the old free account that I started with although it didn't make a difference until they changed webshots a few weeks ago.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Here is a tried and tested recipe for wood pigeons that Tania posted...it is used by the Wildlife Hospital in London and sound delicious. YOu could add a sprinkle of vitamins occasionally:

_wild bird seed
frozen peas
finely chopped apple
finely chopped peanuts
finely chopped fat balls
finely shredded greens
brown bread crumbs

you can make this up without the fresh stuff in a bowl and add the fresh stuff daily, dont want the apples to ferment! this is fine for them, you can add to the water finely chopped grass. The fat balls, bread, peanuts can be done in the food processer, its easier and gives a good consistency, make loads of it as it keeps for ages, then as i said mix in the fresh stuff daily_


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## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

Hello Cynthia et al, I've had another look inside Lulu's beak and yes, there ARE yellow growths. I feel awful for not seeing these before - please tell me what I should do now, and can I save her?

Diana.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've sent private messages to John and Cynthia again about this last revelation. I'm sure they'll be back in touch pretty quickly. It'll be a matter of getting those medications in time and I wouldn't give up just yet.

Pidgey


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

I don't know anything about the beak. But that thing looks like a chicken to me!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Yes, you can save her by giving medication as soon as possible.

I use Spartrix (Carnidazole) which you can get without a prescription and Metronidazole (for which you need a prescription.

They sell Spartrix at veterinary surgeries and pigeon suppliers.

I can get some in the post to you but the earliest it will arrive is Thursday because the post is gone. If you e-mail me your address I can get some in the post now just in case all else fails.

John lives in Worthing I am certain that he has a small supply, but I don't know what time he is due home...perhaps you and he could meet half way along the route?

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Here is a link to the information that I have put together on treating canker, I hope it helps. It includes a photo that shows how quickly and completely it clears up.

http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/canker.htm

Cynthia


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## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

If John is reading this, I can come down to Worthing this evening, or at least meet you just north of Worthing on the A24 (maybe at Findon, so you don't have to drive too far?). It would take me about 20 / 25 minutes to get there from Horsham (I drive a grey Morris Minor convertible). I've just been out to buy some brown bread, greens, pulses and lard to add to other stuff I have to feed them both. As for 'that thing looking like a chicken to me', Erik - we thought they were crows at first and I fed them minced raw beef for the first day until I learned the truth! I could try our vet tomorrow for Spartrix, but if they don't keep it, and it's not on Gem Supplements' list, I'll have to try elsewhere. And how do I get a prescription for Metronidazole? Is it for humans? Are these liquids or pills? And what are the vitamin / calcium supplements called that Lulu needs?

Diana.


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## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

Cynthia, I've just seen your message about treating canker - many thanks! I can't keep up with all these messages coming in, but I'm really most grateful for everyone's help. Just hope that I can meet up with John this evening so I can get the treatment started...

Diana.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Diana,

John tells me he is on his way to meet you, hope all goes well.

For metronidazole you would need to go to a vet and have a consultation...the problem is finding a compassionate and knowledgeable vet!

But Spartrix on its own should be sufficient. In one case it shrank the canker nodule to half its size overnight.

Cynthia


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## LittleLulu (Sep 12, 2006)

Hello Cynthia, thanks for all your tips and sorry I haven't got back to you sooner - been very busy with all the birds! I met up with John, as you know, and have already given Lulu three half tablets of Spartrix between 15 and 20 hours apart, rather than wait the full 24 hours. Hoping it will do the trick. I'll carry on with the treatment until the canker is no longer visible - is that right? She drinks more than she eats, but I suppose that's normal if she has problems in her throat. I've been giving her and Gannet (the 'normal' sized wood pigeon) the new diet you suggested. Gannet certainly likes the greens! By the way, Gannet and Kes (kestrel), who share an aviary during the day, are fine together. They each have their favourite corner and don't take any notice of each other really. Kes isn't a hunter anyway. John said he'd drop in some calcium or vitamin supplements for Lulu on his way up to Norwich this weekend. I'm hoping it will improve her condition, although she'll always remain a mini-wood pigeon, I'm sure - who knows, she may not even survive very long, but I want to do the best I can for her. I'll try and send you a picture taken this morning of her, if I can find out your e-mail address. Thanks for your help again. Diana.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Diana,

Really Lulu should get half a tablet a day (every 24 hours ) for up to 5 days. I don't think it will have done her any harm to have the more frequent doses, but would stick to the 24 hours now.

How is the canker progressing (or diminishing)? I have the remnants of a sterile bag of metronidazole that I will be posting to another friend tomorrow, but I think that it would be wise to send a few doses for Lulu as well. The only way that I can think of doing this and keeping the contents sterile is to use a syringe and needle to remove a dose, then put the cap back on the needle and leave the needle on the syringe. You would have to be very careful when removing the needle so as to not prick yourself , then just the use the complete contents of each syringe as a single dose once every 24 hours.


Cynthia


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