# Wildlife Management of the Feral Pigeon Columba livia



## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

I pulled the entire post. There's too much going on about it without considering the substance of the article.
All I wanted to point out was that the creation of pigeon cotes might cause major problems here. I won't go into what I believe about them.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Don't feed the pigeons....*



pigeonperson said:


> http://tinyurl.com/2rjvur
> 
> Wildlife Management of the Feral Pigeon Columba livia
> 
> ...


Pigeon Person,

I am not an expert in such matters, but when I went to school, when you used the words of another person, it was considered very rude not to assign the name and authorship of those words. In this particular case, 

Prof Dr. Daniel Haag-Wackernagel 
Research Group Integrative Biology 
at Institute of Anatomy 
University of Basel 
Pestalozzistrasse 20 
CH-4056 Basel 
Switzerland 

is the author of this particular research paper. I do not think that simply pasting a link to the papers themselves is being very fair to the Prof Dr. Daniel Haag-Wackernagel. At some point the link could become disabled, and no reference to the author of the material was made at all. 

One could also argue, that the name of the good professor, the title of the work, and a link, would have been all that was necessary, since the reader could go there to read the research. Which would then leave you to write the purpose of the thread, which is missing. 

I will thus suggest one, and that is evidence, as to why one should not go to the local park and feed the pigeons.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Here where I live I see less large floks of ferals as to what i saw years back. Why i believe the hawks have reduced numbers. There is a large foeed source for the birds but less birds. Used to see flocks that were in the hundreds all the tiome Now just a couple that size. Sure some have been killed by man But to my knowledge it has been years. But each year now for about 6 months the hawks are hunting and the pigeons are reducing in the flock size. Just like the rabbits They are getting to be less and less preditors are getting more and more in numbers.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

Warren,
It's obvious to me that you are not familiar with the PICAS project taking place in Europe and the attempts to precipitate similar methodology here. This article is probably the basis of the above-named project. 
Since you do not understand the purpose of my posting this, it was to start a discussion about the merits and disadvantages of such a program including how a potential pandemic using this method, might reach and destroy your pigeons but since you missed the point in the first place, such a thread would not fare well here so it's not worth pursuing. This post was intended to lay the groundwork for such a discussion.
Additionally, I don't see your point in lecturing me in two full paragraphs that I forgot to put the name of the author in when I gave the link crediting him with his authorship. A link can be lost but if it is, the article will be lost along with it. Instead, how about a post saying, "PP, you didn't put the name of the author in so would you please edit your post and do so?" This was not an intentional slight to the author.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

pigeonperson said:


> Warren,
> ........Since you do not understand the purpose of my posting this, it was to start a discussion about the merits and disadvantages of such a program including how a potential pandemic using this method, might reach and destroy your pigeons but since you missed the point in the first place, such a thread would not fare well here so it's not worth pursuing. This post was intended to lay the groundwork for such a discussion......A link can be lost but if it is, the article will be lost along with it.....


 Well Pigeon Person,

Again, as I said before, I am not an expert in such matters, but if one is to debate the academic merits of the Professor's research, then I would think one should write a research paper, and have it published much like the work of Prof Dr. Daniel Haag-Wackernagel, which you listed. That is how such academic debate is conducted, the fears or misgivings from the lay person's perspective is really irrelevant, from an academic point of view. 

The link may become lost, but your cut and paste on these pages of the professor's writings would still be there. Providing the reader with the authorship of presented writings, is a very elementary rule and does not even cover possible copyright infrigement. 

But, having said all that, from this layman's perspective, your "potential pandemic " scenario, does add a touch of drama, but I find myself unaffected by the same gloom and doom, that others are so strangely attracted to. 

There is no pandemic, or any act of God, that is going to interfere with me or my pigeons, in the pursuit of our combined destiny. I am operating under divine direction and protection, so quite naturally, I have a high level of confidence. If someone produces evidence to the contrary, then the laws of Mother Nature herself, will have to change or be rewritten.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Please review the *Policies and Terms of Use.*

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7007


Quoting sources for material is okay as long as you provide the reference material source, but it needs to be provided in quotes, with footnotes referencing the original author.

It is best just to provide the link, but it you must copy/reproduce the entire work "word for word" on the forum you need the copyright owner/authors permission, unless you are the author/owner of copyright, or the BB owns it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the clarification, Teresa.

Cynthia


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

I pulled the post. There was too much going on about it rather than addressing the substance of the article. I was trying to lead into what is being done in Europe concerning the creation of pigeon cotes in urban areas. Personally, I can envision the potential for danger in these cotes but my opinion isn't going to change anything so I'm sorry for causing any disruption.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

It's a shame. I know who we can thank for that.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*What a hubbub!*

I pulled this from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright


Main articles: *Fair use and Fair dealing* 

Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. In the United States, the fair use doctrine, codified by the Copyright Act of 1976 as 17 U.S.C. Section 107, permits some copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. The statute does not clearly define fair use, but instead gives four non-exclusive factors to consider in a fair use analysis. Those factors are:
the purpose and character of your use
the nature of the copyrighted work
what amount and proportion of the whole work was taken, and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. 

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In quoting the above, I have copied only a portion of the article.
I am not using it for commercial purposes.
It will not hurt Wikipedia, or the U.S. government. 
I have indicated the source.

I have quoted other material before in my posts, and I believe in good conscience that everything was properly attributed, and properly used. 
The way I quote something hopefully encourages the reader to go to the source if he finds the article interesting, and I hope to provide a taste of what he would find if he did so. 

The warnings and disclaimers referred to by *Treesa/Trees Gray* in her above post in this thread, and listed in the *Policies and Terms of Use*, were not always in the front of my mind when I wrote, and quoted, but I have read them before, and keep them in mind in a general way.

To avoid accusations of plagiarism, it is good to quote the source.
I went to university in the 1960s-1970s, and learned some fundamentals concerning research.

*Warren*, 

When I was in high school (1961-65) I knew some things about plagiarism (not the word itself, as I recall), along the lines of not copying answers from the test paper of someone next to you. That was known as cheating. That was a definite no-no. 

We had to do theme papers, and provide footnotes. I had no problem with that, because more footnotes rather than fewer looked good and helped your grade. I think I wound up footnoting and referencing a bit too much, and learned to pare down the references later. 

In college, I learned more about proper attribution of quoted and paraphrased material.

I know that someone who did not attend college or university back then, or who did not learn specifically to write, quite often did not know much about proper accreditation or referring to sources. 

I also know that many students in schools today learn even less about such things.

I try to spell and punctuate properly, and watch my grammar. I do not do as well in German. Often in a foreign country, an alien can feel like a second-class or third-class citizen, or like an overgrown and under-educated child. So I learn a bit of tolerance. Had to.

You are correct in what you say, but you do come across as a wee bit grouchy at times. We all forget the obvious at times, and need to be reminded, but we (or some of us) like to be reminded gently. I know I should go to bed early, get enough sleep, eat properly, love my neghbor, get enough exercise. All obvious things even every idiot knows. Still need to be reminded, though. Eating before bedtime: possible nightmares. But when I'm hungry, I shove it in and regret it later. Never again, I say. Until the next time. And, still resent the ones who say "I told you so." Except when I'm the one telling someone else "so." And sometimes a good kick in the pants is still the best reminder. You may be entitled to be short-tempered, however. Don't know you real well personally, so can't say. (I'm grouchy quite a bit, so don't mind it in others at times. Find it refreshing, up to a point. I don't usually fit into the tea-sipping crowd. I sat around with my wife and three of her female friends for several hours last week, sipping tea and coffee and eating cake at Cafe Richard am Dom in Cologne, and they discussed: cinnamon and cumin in cooking, two signs of the Zodiac and their relevance to two of the women and to me. That was about the extent of the discussion). I taught English for seven months at 7th, 8th, and 9th grade level (middle school), and my students tested at third grade to seventh grade level in SRA reading and comprehension tests. I didn't know how to teach such disparate classes, and quit teaching (or what amounted to babysitting in my case: principal informed me he was mostly interested in keeping the students quiet. He probably knew the score by then, and I was too much of a neophyte). 

Also, as to writing and publishing an academic paper to counter Prof Dr. Daniel Haag-Wackernagel of the Research Group Integrative Biology at Institute of Anatomy, University of Basel, I think the lay person or non-academc can discuss and attack anything the professor says. If I publish a paper, and have it peer-reviewed, it should be subject to and be able to withstand hell and high water, whichever direction it comes from. Peer-reviewed and accepted papers are more respected, but they do not necessarily mean anything that has been written is right. 

The excerpt I read in the opening post of this thread had the author [D. Haag-Wackernagel of Basel] labelling certain pigeon-feeders as fanatics. That is a matter of opinion, a personal judgement of the professor's clothed as fact. I happen to disagree with him on that point. Who can point the finger to another and say "you are a fanatic"? Who is standing on solid ground, and who on fuzzy imaginings? (To be fair to the professor, I refer to "religous fanatics" quite often). 

*Pigeonperson*,

This theme has been brought up before in PT. I think it crops up about every six months or so, in one form or another. Or else, it feels as though I come across it that often. We hash it out, and it is laid to rest for a while. Someone comes across a re-publishing in the public media of an older article, and the debate continues.

Establishing pigeon cotes or coops in the city sounds like a good solution, but I have serious reservations about it, which I mentioned in a previous, long-winded as usual, post. 

And other published articles and other discussions in other web-sites have discussed and questioned Prof. Dr. Haag-Wackernagel's paper. 

It is difficult to pursue a lengthy discussion of this topic in a forum of this sort, because no one edits and trims and compiles the results into a manageable size.

We don't have a professor criticising and grading us. That is a weakness, and a strength, in these forums. We can have serious discussions, trade recipes, trade mis-information, get corrected, berated, lambasted with pigeon feathers and fluff, wish happy birthday to one another, and once in a while think a "pigeon thought."

(Whatever a "pigeon thought" is). 

Anyway, Pigeonperson, don't pull your posts and don't pull your punches. (My opinion). Some of us can take it. And there are some of us who don't want to take it. We have an interesting diversity of opinion and style here on PT. I guess that's why I keep coming back. That, and the help I need for my pigeons. 

I have a question for someone, a bit off topic. If someone saves a web-link or downloads it as a _Web Archive_, doesn't that page on the web go into an internet archive, and saved so that it cannot be changed or deleted by the ordinary(?) person? 

Larry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> *I pulled the post.*
> 
> *There was too much going on about it rather than addressing the substance of the article.* I was trying to lead into what is being done in Europe concerning the creation of pigeon cotes in urban areas. Personally, I can envision the potential for danger in these cotes but my opinion isn't going to change anything so I'm sorry for causing any disruption.





Victor said:


> *It's a shame. I know who we can thank for that*.


Victor,

It appears, from his quote noted above, *pigeonperson* chose to removed his post, which contained the article, because it wasn't going the way he wanted it to go & he certainly has the right to do that. 
So, I guess we can say the 'thanks' goes to pigeonperson.  

If anyone is interested, the article can still be accessed via pigeonperson's quote in Warren's post (#2).

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

In my opinion, there is a deeper problem going on here. It seems to me that Pigeonperson is being singled out to be criticized or critiqued by some individuals who use their authority in a mean and argumentative manner. I get the impression that there is some history between some members (or moderators) and Pigeonperson that goes back, perhaps, some years ago and the grudge continues.

This situation has worried me tremendously because I believe in being forthright, honest and fair to people. I detest "bullies" and rude and disrespectful people, and this forum is no place for them. I dislike it when people "gang up" on someone, using their authority and behind the scene maneuvering to do it. 

I do not know Pigeonperson although I suspect that he is an individual I have mentioned several times as being very knowledgeable about caring for birds.  If he is, I have copied most of his earlier posts that I use as reference and have often wished he would come back full time with us to share his vast knowledge.

Maybe Pigeonperson is not gifted with "the gift of gab" and does some plain speaking sometimes but isn't this forum about helping pigeons? Why would some people deliberately question everything he says in such a negative way. If you disagree with someone you don't have to be ugly about it. None of us are vets except maybe one member, so we don't know everything. My reason for being on this forum is to help where I can and get help when I need it. If I am wrong in giving advice then I want to be corrected so other members don't get the wrong information....but, it should be done in a respectful manner. Pigeonperson, or ANY member should be treated the same way.

I have seriously thought today about discontinuing my membership because of the negativity but, I am not going to let a few "bullies" prevent me from learning more about how to care for my pigeons or offer help when I can.

Larry, I do want to say that your post was so good. The hubbub about copyrighted material is all a bunch of hogwash.

Addition: Cindy, your post is an example of what I'm talking about.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> *Addition: Cindy, your post is an example of what I'm talking about*.


Maggie,
I would appreciate it if you would please send me an email explaining your comment.
[email protected]

Thank you,

Cindy


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Maggie,

I feel the same way that you do. It seems that everywhere I turned today that Pigeonperson was being attacked for one reason or the other.

I have not read everything that he/she has written, but he seems to be making alot of people angry. I have read some of the things that he has written and his posts appear very informative and humble.

The attacks are obvious and have left me feeling very uncomfortable. I would like to read more of Pigeon person's posts. Please give him the respect and room to share his opinions without jumping in with negative remarks. 

I didn't get the feeling that he was trying to steal anyone's research and use it as his own writing.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

AZWhitefeather said:


> So, I guess we can say the 'thanks' goes to pigeonperson.
> 
> 
> 
> Cindy


With all due respect to you Ms Cindy, I have to disagree with you on this one. I guess *I* can say the thanks goes to Warren.

I guess I will be getting a nasty e-mail now.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Concerning the discussion about quotes*

Maggie,

When I looked at some web pages dealing with copyright and copyright infringement, I became aware that some people take this issue quite seriously.

Some of the people would be those who lose money when others use their work for commercial gain, and the creators get no recompense. 

And some people who get picky about giving credit where credit is due, about not plagiarizing, can also have a legitimate point. 

It occurred to me that _some_ of the problem here may be due to some general differences between the sexes. (To be specific, how important or unimportant it is to dot every _*i*_ and cross every *t* and precisely referencing and creditng every quote and every source of everything that is mentioned on a web-site which often seems more verbal or conversational as opposed to being scholarly and academic and scientifically exact, in a written format).

I read somewhere recently (and no, I don't remember who said it or where I read it) that when men talk, they like to exchange or pass on information. That is what I am doing here, for example. And the same article said that women (and I must paraphrase) like to exchange feelings, like to reveal something about themselves and their vulnerabilities in order to further a relationship with another woman, to develop trust. To make connections. To provide the grease that lubricates a society and keeps it functioning. So, women do a lot of this in the background.

I often try to insert something personal, a personal experience or memory, into a post so that it is more ineresting to read, more palatable, so that the reader does not feel that he has just read three pages of the telephone book, whether white pages or yellow pages. So, I am trying to write with the female audience in mind.

But men (I've read) tend to throw facts at each other. Exchange information which is neutral, less of a personal nature. Of course, men gossip also. 

With facts and information, one can readily ascertain that knowledge is power. Facts can be used as weapons. Also as tools. Knowing that you can save some money or get better quality by purchasing elsewhere is advantageous to the consumer, and disadvantageous to the seller. A shopkeeper can go out of business if customers "feel" he is too expensive. With published lists of prices he can fight and counter such a "feeling."

So, if someone quotes an article, I often would like to know who said it. What are his credentials. Did he really say it or not. If I provide the source of the quote or credit the source of the fact, I can attack the "idea" or concept, and discredit it, or prove it, and thus be satisfied and justified about usng it. Usually we can find someone on both sides of an issue, and we are not sure who should be believed. 

I find that all too often I make a statement which later turns out to not be true. It happens with small things, and unconsciously is sometimes permitted to happen with larger things. I know that four or five times a day I say something to my wife that is not true. It is not that I am lying. But I am not saying the exact truth. "You've been on the phone the last two hours." (Maybe only one hour and fifteen minutes, but am I picky? No). I'm out of beer. (Almost). Where'd you put my glasses? You're always putting them where I can't find them. (I have them on my nose). I need to buy another [tool]. Then it sits unused for seven months. I can't find my jacket. (I haven't yet begun to look for it. I'm assuming I will have trouble locating it). It seems to me that two-thirds of the time I ask my wife for something, before three second have passed she has said "I can't find it." Then a minute or two later she finds it. The "I can't find it" should truthfully be "I don't want to look for it." Or, it's yours, don't you think you would be better at finding it? 

---------

I would like to point out something in the article that *Pigeonperson* referred to:

Prof Dr. Daniel Haag-Wackernagel, Research Group Integrative Biology 
at Institute of Anatomy, University of Basel 

eMail: [email protected]

http://pages.unibas.ch/dbmw/medbiol/haag_1.html

Pigeon feeding is a friendly gesture deeply rooted in man. Pigeon feeders can by their motivation be classified in various groups. Play-feeders and display-feeders can be recognised. They are more easily to be dealt with than the *fanatical* pigeon-friends who show a strong emotional attachment to these birds. The *pigeon problem*, for that reason, is a sociocultural problem. 

_(emphasis in *bold* mine) _

I don't think I have to write and publish in a peer-reviewed academic journal my observations:

He uses the word "fanatical" when referring to someone who has a strong emotional attachment to the (feral) pigeons.

_Fanatical_ is derogatory in its use here. It means excessive, or obsessive. This is a subjective judgment of some members of the population, in a paper which supposedly presents itself as being objective and unopinionated.

He refers to the "pigeon problem." It is a convenient way to label or discuss the theme of his paper, but it is again subjective and judgemental, critical and derogatory. A more elegant and more exact phrasing would be "the problematic relation of some humans to pigeons," or "the problems some humans perceive in dealing with pigeons." The apt word is missing.

"The pigeon problem" is anthropormorphic. It demonstrates an assumption, a pre-judgement, that humans are not the source or cause of any so-called problems they may perceive or have with pigeons. Other species are the problem. Humans are always right. The sun and universe of species revolves around the world of humans. 

A problem assumes something is wrong and can be corrected. An answer can be found. The "pigeon problem" assumes there is something wrong with pigeons, or with their presence, and the answer lies in changing something about the pigeons, not in changing something about humans.

I have read recently (again cannot provide a quote, directly) that since humans had no problems with pigeons until recently, the "problem" arises because of the "gentrification" of our cities. There is no place in our sanitized lifestyles in the suburbs and inner cities.

The author of the paper, Prof. Dr. Haag-Wackernagel, proposes to diminish the number of pigeons, and remove them to places where they do not bother us. He assumes this is a partial answer to the "pigeon problem." He does not address the question of whether the "problem" may lie more with humans, with how we want our cities to look, whether this direction may be towards a sterile, stagnant, less lively environment. He does not question the goals we have in mind. 

If I were not able to read his article in its entirety, with references, and arguments pro and con, I would have less information with which to form my developing opinions. So, sometimes good references can help. Oftentimes we are in a hurry, or it is not important to us, and references merely fill up space, when we do not use them. 

Also, if I am to be fair to Prof. Dr. Haag-Wackernagel, I should present my arguments to him for his perusal. Not just put them in a public forum such as this, without informing him, so that he can chose to answer or not. However, before I do so, I will take some more time to think things over. After some time passes, do I still think the same thoughts, have the same opinions? A couple of years ago I decided to become vegetarian, since I realized I did not Have to eat meat to survive. I could leave animals alone to their own devices, let them enjoy their lives as they see fit. No one was making me eat meat or kill animals. My viewpoint towards many things has changed greatly since then. And may change again. A teacher of mine once asked, what is reality, and gave this as an example: a guy falls in love with a girl and mthey marry. Is that love real? Say they later divorce, and he decides he wasn't really in love with her, didn't really love her. Is that real, is he now right, or was the original love real? Suppose they get back together, re-marry. Which is the reality? Was the first "love" real love, or the second being-out-of-love the real thing, or the third phase of being in love real? We always think our feeling is "real." We always think "now I know better, whereas before I was ignorant."

I think Pigeonperson is very knowledgeable, helpful, and I think these topics of discussion are interesting. I think our opinions and arguments evolve over time, sometimes for the better, and probably sometimes for the worse. Why shouldn't the chance of going in either direction exist? 

I have a cartoon of an old man (me?) telling a young whippersnapper of a kid: "When I was your age, I had already forgotten more than I ever knew." 

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, Larry made some good and constructive points on the topic of copyright laws and Fair Use and Fair Dealing. What I don't know is whether or not something that is posted here believing that credit has been correctly given and 
obviously not for a profit incentive would clear the owners of the site of any liability and perhaps that is something that also goes into the full equation when
considering how to proceed.

Do I think pp's intention was to take credit for the quote...no, I don't. I do think that as a group we do need to pay attention to this whole issue of copyright law and giving credit where due and not exposing 'PT management' to litigation for not posting and following up on guidelines where this issue is concerned.

In general, wouldn't it be nice if everyone acted as caring to some of the humans here and their feelings as they would to the birds that we all come 
here to learn more about and help. Some of the content in this thread seems
to fall into the 'casting the first stone' department. 

fp


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2007)

Thank you all for offering a defense for me. Believe me when I tell you it's greatly appreciated. 

Some years ago, I hit a major depression and one of the bad symptoms of it is irrational anger. About 20% of the American population walks around with undiagnosed depression so I was fortunate to have found it out. I entered the depression because my son tried to do away with himself and after we got him stabilized, I allowed myself to fall apart. Depression can be genetic. I was in denial about it but my wife recognized the symptoms and dragged me off to a psychiatrist who put me on antidepressants that eventually worked well. It does take time for this condition to resolve and so it doesn't go away that quickly but during this time, I showed the anger on fprc to Cindy and Cynthia and if I remember correctly, I didn't do so good here either at that time. It was irrational and I deeply regret those comments. 

Apologies don't make everything go away. The people I did hurt at least know that I was aware of the mistakes but that's about as far as it can go. Either you forgive or you don't. 

It's been hard here and there are times, I did get annoyed with the treatment I've received but I tried to stick it out naively believing that everything could be overlooked if I could make a contribution. Life just doesn't work that way. Most of you have been very kind and because of that, I was able to keep going here. As I said, some people don't forget and I really can't blame them for that.

There is nobody in this world I would turn my back on if I could help and I have never ever expected any thanks. There is no animal in this world I would walk away from if I could help in any way. I know that's the kind of person I am but for a while, it got hidden from others by an unfortunate but controllable illness.

I had to retire because I worked a block south of the World Trade Center and it affected my subsequent work to a point where I could no longer concentrate so I was no good to my employer anymore and I'm too ethical a person to coast along and allow myself to take advantage of an employer who gave me a living for my family for 37 years.

My son got married, moved away and is happy. My wife does her own thing and so all I have left is the rehabilitation of the pigeon. And now, my age is catching up with me. I'm making mistakes in some of my postings. fp caught an error of mine today when I said that a 4 in 1 includes pox prevention. That would never have happened a year ago so now, I don't trust my posts. It's very hard to admit to oneself that there comes a time when it's time to stop...very hard. 

These kinds of errors mean something and I don't think I can be trusted anymore to analyze a pigeon situation properly. Errors are being made in other aspects of my life too. I don't know what it means and I hope it's just simply the aging process. 

I won't stay here to cause old, bad feelings to flair up again. I was naive enough to believe it wouldn't happen. No one person is worth any kind of disruption no matter how well intentioned it may be and nobody is indispensable. Nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. I may be one of the few who is honest enough to admit mine.

I'll read the posts because of my very intense interest in this topic but I don't think I will post anymore. I don't want there to be bad feelings. I don't want people to come to my defense when there are more important things to worry about in life and I don't want to post misinformation. Everybody stay well and I do mean everyone.

Fred


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson,

You have every bit as much a right to your mistakes as a newbie has to their
mistakes..... for very different reasons. Maybe instead of getting just so
intense w/it all which is apparently part of your nature, why not try stepping back, taking a deep breath and letting some space come into your life.


There's more to life than posting on PT....but it's still good and best if
you post here and be involved in the community that understands what you know and love. How 'bout if everyone just sits w/this one for a bit and lets it be? That means everyone working on their own impulses instead of others. And that's just plain not easy work.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I


> showed the anger on fprc to *Cindy and Cynthia *and if I remember correctly, I didn't do so good here either at that time. It was irrational and I deeply regret those comments.
> 
> Apologies don't make everything go away. The people I did hurt at least know that I was aware of the mistakes but that's about as far as it can go. Either you forgive or you don't.
> 
> It's been hard here and there are times, I did get annoyed with the treatment I've received but I tried to stick it out naively believing that everything could be overlooked if I could make a contribution. Life just doesn't work that way. Most of you have been very kind and because of that, I was able to keep going here. As I said,* some people don't forget *and I really can't blame them for that.


As I have been dragged into this by implication could someone please point out where my responses to PP's posts or his direct requests for advice have been rude, atypical , bullying, vindictive or disrespectful?

Thanks

Cynthia


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank you Fred for explaining to the rest of us what is going on here and why. You stated that you attacked two women on the forum in the past. I am glad that I didn't see that, or I might be one of the people that is jumping in on your posts with negative comments.

There are very few instances where a man should not be held accountable for his actions. Fred, your case is one of them. 

I know by the way that you have been treated that it will be hard for you to stay on the forum. But this goes deeper than a grouchy ol rehabber that had decided not to post anymore.

You need to keep posting your experiences and thoughts here on this forum. The two ladies that you had a run in with are healers and nurturers, not destroyers. In order to heal any creature you need to have forgivness within. Their foundation is love and compassion. This is the reason I know this will all work out. Please reconsider.

There are many of us here that need your wisdom, and help. If you stop teaching, then to me the forum has lost it's magic. To me this incident will always represent the place and people ( I called family) that packed together and brought a man's spirit down. 

Feather


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2007)

Cynthia,
You have been the perfect lady. All errors were mine.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2007)

Feather,
Pidgey once told me I couldn't buck my nature. I'll see if I can post but if I keep making these dumb mistakes, I don't think I should continue. If you make a mistake reconciling your bank statement, that's one thing but make a mistake here and a life could be lost so if I do, please jump in and correct me.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thanks Pigeonperson!

Pidgey is a wise man! Sometimes!  He's not to knowledgeable about the nature of wiener dogs though.

I will be looking forward to your presense here on the forum.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Fred, I for one have made mistakes in my life. You have, I have, and I may very probably make some more in the future. I hope and pray that I don't, but that is what life is all about. All we can ask of ourselves is that we choose what is right and hope we make the right choice. 

For 9 years Fred, I ran a skating group for neighborhood kids ranging from grades 2 through high school. I had a tendency to sometimes get personally involved in some of the children's home problems and try to help in their situations. I started putting their needs before those of my family's, and it was a strain on all of us.Two years ago I decided to step back and take a Summer sabbatical ...and I am still on it. I made some mistakes, and choose to pull away from what had developed into a problem.

I am not suggesting by any means that you step back and just quit the forum, but am merely pointing out that we all have had problems...and have made mistakes. My choice was to give it a break, and I choose not to return . I now have more time for myself,my family to include my grandchildren, and Lord knows I have enough of them!

Back to the subject here Pigeon person,I have only been involved with pigeons since 2004. I have learned much about pigeons from many members here on Pigeon Talk, and I am far from an expert by all means, and I am continuing to learn from you and others. You have much to contribute here and much to offer rookies such as myself. Besides, if you choose to leave, poor ol' Pidgey and others are left with a burden ! 

The choice is yours, but I encourage you to stay. 

Feather, I liked your post. Well said.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Feather,
> Pidgey once told me I couldn't buck my nature. I'll see if I can post but if I keep making these dumb mistakes, I don't think I should continue. If you make a mistake reconciling your bank statement, that's one thing but make a mistake here and a life could be lost so if I do, please jump in and correct me.


You can't 'buck' as in 'control' what's in the temperament, but it's worthwhile
trying to 'steer' or 'guide' it and know when and how not to 'feed it'. 

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Feather said:


> Thank you Fred for explaining to the rest of us what is going on here and why.
> 
> *You stated that you attacked two women on the forum in the past. I am glad that I didn't see that, or I might be one of the people that is jumping in on your posts with negative comments.*
> 
> ...


Feather, et al,

Just to set the record straight:
I *have not* treated, nor *will not* treat, Fred any differently than any other member. If I don't agree with what a member says, then I'm going to reply accordingly. Who the member is, is irrelevant.

The accusations of me holding a 'grudge', 'bullying', 'ganging up on' Fred, & using my 'authority' inappropriately, quite frankly disgusts me.

I have been a moderator going on 5 years & I have *NEVER* used, *NOR WILL I EVER* use, my 'authority' in any manner other than it's intent.

* * * *

Fred,
Only you know why you chose to share 'old news' with the group. 

This, coming from the 'horses mouth', "*Our opinions have differed & continue to do so at times. However, I do not reply to your posts with the past in mind. The past is just that & should remain as such*." 

There's no need for anyone to respond to this post. It isn't intended to be used as leverage for a debate. Just my personal feelings on this subject.

Cindy


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

AZWhitefeather said:


> The accusations of me holding a 'grudge', 'bullying', 'ganging up on' Fred, & using my 'authority' inappropriately, quite frankly disgusts me.
> 
> I have been a moderator going on 5 years & I have *NEVER* used, *NOR WILL I EVER* use, my 'authority' in any manner other than it's intent.
> 
> ...


Cindy, I believe the references were made towards another moderator, not you.

I for one know that you would never use your position in any other manner. You are one of the nicest, and fairest that we have.

I am sorry now that I contributed to this thread going into debate mode. I should have listened to Bev.

Maybe it is time to move on to our pigeons, and close this thread?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Victor said:


> Cindy,
> * *I believe the references were made towards another moderator, not you.*
> 
> I for one know that you would never use your position in any other manner. You are one of the nicest, and fairest that we have.
> ...


* The references were definitely directed towards me, as well as whoever else.

** Sounds like a good idea.  

Cindy


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