# Checking the throat



## miken (Jun 23, 2010)

So I was reading an article on PIPA the other day and it had to do with checking the throat in order to help grade pigeons. The article tried describing what to look for but I'm still a bit unsure of what to look at. Does anyone know of any books that have pictures of that help in describing the throat, or could you post some pics if you have them available. 
Thanks
Mike


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## ThaoLoft (Feb 28, 2012)

Do you have the link to the article


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

A pretty good explanation with photos is part of one of Jim Jenner's Secrets of Champions DVD. The masters he interviewed swore by this inspection.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

"Secrets of Champions" videos has a nice section on the throat. I looked mine over this year and was surprised that most of my breeders were in the 8-10 range. I would not eliminate any by the throat. It is quite easy. They say it shows stress in a bird. The throat looks like a curtain on a stage. You want the vertical line to be straight and fine like a hair. The bottom will look like a dull crown. The video shows the difference in how they rank a 0 to 10. 
My theory and it was stated in the video that you want to look at the throat in the winter when the birds have had rest. Seems like this is the less stressful time and the throat should look good. If it does not, then the bird is stressed. In the video they say do not breed from birds less than say a 7. Interesting, but not sure how valid it is. Makes more sense than eye sign to me and easier to understand.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuZtH9io09M
a bad link to the video.


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## miken (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks Hill, I'll have to get a copy of that DVD. I have seen that link but its so bad I just can't watch it.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

They also said in the DVD that the Belgian word for throat is Keel so when people tried to read the Belgian magazines from the past they would see the word straight Keel and people thought they were really talking about the keel of a bird but in reality they were talking about the straight line of the birds throat all along.


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## miken (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks for hat tip Eric


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

*A book by the cover.*

When looking for a good hearted woman I judge them by their toes. I'm still looking....


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

Start betting your entire paycheck on this theory. My "guess" is you'll be broke and divorced faster than you can say "eye sign."


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Here is an idea of what to look for. Open the beak in the sun light and look at the back of the throat. Here is what it looks like. Not purple like this, but pink. I did notice some small white spots on three of my birds. Looked into this thinking it might be an illness, but found it was just normal throat spots in two to three birds per 100.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

i liked the jim jenner movies, the throat thing i have trouble looking into my birds mouth the wiggle and i dont like to distress them , i really am kinda scared to harm the birds when i do it the birds wont like me, touching them.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The score of 4 in the pic is probably generous, the movie would give that one a 1 or 0, but you get the idea.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Roger Siemens said:


> i liked the jim jenner movies, the throat thing i have trouble looking into my birds mouth the wiggle and i dont like to distress them , i really am kinda scared to harm the birds when i do it the birds wont like me, touching them.


The first time I had the same issues. Once I got good at it, I could assess the throat in about 5 or 6 seconds. A few birds were a bit squirmy. I also looked at the eyes for general health, the wings, general body weight. I found one bird seemed a little weak, so she gets the year off from breeding. She is a bit older hen. All the others felt solid. Each bird took about a minute to assess.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

thanks , i m still trying to look, i think if i tame them down more they wont mind so much. i m glad i m not the only guy who has felt that way. i like handling my birds and looking at there health, how the wings move when i extend them, how there little bodies feel weather there full of food or hungry.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

LOFT 532 said:


> Start betting your entire paycheck on this theory. My "guess" is you'll be broke and divorced faster than you can say "eye sign."


Not too far from feeling the same way. I would put eye sign at a 0 out of 10 for importance and the throat theory at say 3 out of 10. Only because of the source of the information. Have not heard eye sign talked about by anyone who is top of the federations and uses it as a top selection method. The throat theory on the other hand is used by some of the best fliers in the world. Eye sign is a true theory where the throat shows general health. Healthy birds breed healthy birds. Therefore I put it at about a 3. All my birds throats did look good according to their theory. So not an issue in selection. I looked the throats over more for curiosity than anything. I was surprised and not surprised on how good they looked. I am getting to a point where most birds in the breeding program have proven themselves. Makes me think that the theory might have merit. I did take a few birds out of the breeding system that also had good throats that did not breed to my liking. Thus it may have merit, but not above breeding and racing records.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing I forgot to look for was the rotation and movement of the eye and its range. Read the other day that this was a sworn by theory. The guy was a top flier who had the theory. It also made a bit of sense. I still put 90% on race records and the theory that "Like breeds Like".


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

When I get to where I am pairing a race winner with a bird that bred multiple winners, I think the theories can go out the window. The fact of pairing two birds that have bred multiple winners, the pair that bred high points in the club, or bond and futurity winners, etc, negates any need for theory.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

the eye sign thing i really dont like, however there is something to be said for a bird that watches you, a hen who s eyes are slightly crossed and forward. a friend pointed this out to me who flys the bigger races.

the wings i ve not read anything about, know any good books?

i agree the throat is the best theory out there that i ve herd of.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

You had to bring up eye sign, I study eye sign a bit and really don't look at the mountains, the valleys, the inner circles of bull. So I took 3 birds to a friend, that is an eye specialist for people, and had him look at the one with the least mountains first and when he got to the best one he had to stop and consult a book, when he came back he said that the bird with the most red that the red was iron. So the bird with more red has the most iron in it's eye, now if a bird uses magnetic field of the earth, that could make some since. I have never herd an eye sign expert bring that up before. Just some thing to think about.
Dave


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## miken (Jun 23, 2010)

Hill, which Secrets of Champions DVD is that on? I saw a few of them for sale.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I will have to look. I will get back to you.


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

Disk 1 Be sure to pay attention to Ad.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

crazy pete

thats eye sign thing about iron and the red , i d like to see the text or book, just to have a look???


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Loft532.....You have a lot to learn !!
I will not tell you what my Dad,or many racing pigeon guys think...Especially long distance flyers...I will tell you about one man..Who passed away within the last year or so...He raced/lived in Engalnd...He won more races then Ganus would ever think of winning...The man`s name is Frank Tasker....He was a MIDDLE DISTANCE speacialist at that...NOT a LD racing loft...The pigeons "Slit",American Name"..."Curtain" name in England,should be CLOSED,ALL YEAR LONG...Every darn day !! It is closed when the pigeon is born...It is closed when not flying...It is OPENED by said bird ONLY when in flying/racing in warm/hot weather....You cannot make a pigeon with an OPEN slit close,if it wasn`t born that way...I have done this since 1984 myself...The pigeon either has a closed slit,or it doesn`t...In my Tasker`s words,or charts,here is how he graded a pigeons throat...#10 Closed(a perfect slit)....#9 Ever so slight an opening...
#8 A Noticeable opening(accectable)...#7 and below >> Give away to non racing pigeon fanciers....Now,even if I thought Mr Tasker was wrong,I have been to many lofts,and lofts with GREAT long distance pigeons that WIN...Mr tasker is absolutely RIGHT...
One fellow club member didn`t beleive me about the throat...I took out $50 from my pocket,and asked him to FIND me a PIGEON in his basket with a OPEN slit,that he was shipping to a 500 mile race..And I would give him the $50.00....He didn`t have any,and I kept my $50...The reason he didn`t have any ?? He was shipping only a FEW pigeons that he knew could WIN the race...Pigeons with OPEN slits don`t win 500 or 600 mile races...UNLESS....There is a 10+MPH wind BEHIND them to PUSH them home...With NO wind,and a HOT day,or a nice day with a HEADWIND,only the CLOSED slit bird has a chance....
NOW....And here`s a BIG NOW !!! The pigeon must have the WING..The BODY...The WILL...The SMARTS....The MOTIOVATION etc to WIN the race....The THROAT is only part of the WHOLE pigeon....When I have my YB`s at 2 months old...I go over some points that I make on paper,to remember about a pigeon...I will truthfully say,If I bred a pigeon with a #7 and below class,I lost it racing as a YB....That doesn`t mean ALL the closed slit birds were not lost..It just means a bird with a open slit,is less strong,and so if a race is a tuff one,that pigeon will give up homing...Pigeons that get tired quickly do not win races....Especially at 500/600 miles....
OK,So why is is so important that a pigeon shoud have a closed slit,for long distance racing ?? You ask...OK,lets take you me and every HUMAN being on this planet Earth...
I am typing right now..I am NOT exserting myself...I am breathing with my mouth closed...If I was out digging a garden,and it was warm or hot out,your mouth and mine is OPEN,taking in more air,to keep refreshed,and strong,so that we can continue gardening...
Now,The pigeons are realeased at 6am...They are in St Louis,Mo...They are headed East to the Pittsburgh and WVa area`s...This is my racing....The weather is 68 degree`s at release...87 degrees at Homing !! There is NO wind...The speed of this race will probally be around 1170YPM....It would take a pigeon in very good condition,and motivated to win,or even be a Top 10% result....The bird should/will need to have a closed slit to win this race...Throw in a 5 to 7 MPH HEADWIND to this race,and the Winning Speed will be anound 1000YPM or less !!....If a pigeon with a WIDE OPEN slit wins this race,I`m a Monkey`s Uncle,and will GIVE away ALL my pigeons !!!......Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> When I get to where I am pairing a race winner with a bird that bred multiple winners, I think the theories can go out the window. The fact of pairing two birds that have bred multiple winners, the pair that bred high points in the club, or bond and futurity winners, etc, negates any need for theory.


 Since I let the race basket determine what a bird should or should not have, it sure makes my job a whole heck of a lot easier. I don't have to worry about eyeballs, wings, throats, feet, etc etc. 

And I think you are right, you collect your winners, your breed from winners, you keep the ones that breed the best, and everything just sort of sorts itself out. Those with all their theories might get a bit frustrated, because they are convinced all they have to do is go down their list of likes and dislikes, and bingo...,. they can pick out the next great Super racer or breeder. 

I don't know what my bird's throats look like., don't know and don't care. If they were shipped to eight races, and won eight prizes, then in my mind, their throat must be good enough for the job. Same with eyes, wings, backs, tails, etc. etc. I'm just not smart enough to compete with the race basket, and most likely the check list is wrong anyway.


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

*The Quest For Knowledge.*

Alamo........ Please list the OLR's you're going to enter this year and how many birds you're sending to each one. Thanks.


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Since I let the race basket determine what a bird should or should not have, it sure makes my job a whole heck of a lot easier. I don't have to worry about eyeballs, wings, throats, feet, etc etc.
> 
> And I think you are right, you collect your winners, your breed from winners, you keep the ones that breed the best, and everything just sort of sorts itself out. Those with all their theories might get a bit frustrated, because they are convinced all they have to do is go down their list of likes and dislikes, and bingo...,. they can pick out the next great Super racer or breeder.
> 
> ...


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Roger Siemens said:


> crazy pete
> 
> thats eye sign thing about iron and the red , i d like to see the text or book, just to have a look???



I took the bird to a Optometrist I wouldn't have a clue what books they look at.
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Alamo said:


> Loft532.....You have a lot to learn !!
> I will not tell you what my Dad,or many racing pigeon guys think...Especially long distance flyers...I will tell you about one man..Who passed away within the last year or so...He raced/lived in Engalnd...He won more races then Ganus would ever think of winning...The man`s name is Frank Tasker....He was a MIDDLE DISTANCE speacialist at that...NOT a LD racing loft...The pigeons "Slit",American Name"..."Curtain" name in England,should be CLOSED,ALL YEAR LONG...Every darn day !! It is closed when the pigeon is born...It is closed when not flying...It is OPENED by said bird ONLY when in flying/racing in warm/hot weather....You cannot make a pigeon with an OPEN slit close,if it wasn`t born that way...I have done this since 1984 myself...The pigeon either has a closed slit,or it doesn`t...In my Tasker`s words,or charts,here is how he graded a pigeons throat...#10 Closed(a perfect slit)....#9 Ever so slight an opening...
> #8 A Noticeable opening(accectable)...#7 and below >> Give away to non racing pigeon fanciers....Now,even if I thought Mr Tasker was wrong,I have been to many lofts,and lofts with GREAT long distance pigeons that WIN...Mr tasker is absolutely RIGHT...
> One fellow club member didn`t beleive me about the throat...I took out $50 from my pocket,and asked him to FIND me a PIGEON in his basket with a OPEN slit,that he was shipping to a 500 mile race..And I would give him the $50.00....He didn`t have any,and I kept my $50...The reason he didn`t have any ?? He was shipping only a FEW pigeons that he knew could WIN the race...Pigeons with OPEN slits don`t win 500 or 600 mile races...UNLESS....There is a 10+MPH wind BEHIND them to PUSH them home...With NO wind,and a HOT day,or a nice day with a HEADWIND,only the CLOSED slit bird has a chance....
> ...


Alamo, thanks for the explanation of the throat. I watched the DVD and they never really said why this is important until you did here. When the slit is open the bird simply can't breath right ? is this correct?


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

I think that contrary to what Warren stated above that he is actually a student of and proponent of " Foot Sign Theory". The bird whose feet enter the loft first is the one to fly and breed from.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

thanks crazy pete

i ve got 100 birds or so i might have to bring them in to the doc. i m sure i d get a bill and a good laugh, or was that a fine and jail time????? lol 

alamo thanks from here to, i can see that every athletic thing has its own "thing" for example hockey players that have a wider range of sight. horses that have good form, and so on. perhaps the vail in throat is the factor in pigeons. i know believe in it, and i m always trying to look.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Once upon a time....*



ejb3810 said:


> I think that contrary to what Warren stated above that he is actually a student of and proponent of " Foot Sign Theory". The bird whose feet enter the loft first is the one to fly and breed from.


 I am reminded of a fancier who had gotten back into the game after a long gap of keeping pigeons. He read up on all of the things that a great breeder should have. Like a nice one piece tail, a tight vent, the right throat, etc. So at the end of the race season he went and got his "list", and selected from the group of pigeons which were left at the end of the season. After he diligently "graded" all of his birds, he culled the the ones which didn't measure up to his list. Just like many of the experts he had read about, he was not going to keep those which did not measure up !

A few weeks later, his mentor stopped by because the less experienced breeder wanted to show him the most "perfect" pigeons he had retained for breeding. During the meeting, the more experienced fancier wanted to know what had happened to his blue check cock which had been clocked in every race, all nine of them. The less experienced fancier said...oh him, well he won me a bunch of races, but he didn't have the tight vent you said was good, and he didn't really have a one piece tail, so I culled him.....you what !?! 

Where did this cock bird come from ? Oh him, I was lucky, I lost him on the 2nd 100 mile race, but he showed up in another combine member's loft so he called me and I went and picked him up. And as luck would have it, look at him, he is perfect, nice tail, and look at his tight vent. So I kept him for breeding, and besides he has a good "breeders eye", according to the books. What ?!?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I am not sure But I think when the birds open the beak And breath through the MOUTH/ beak. Thet use that for a cool down Like a dog does when it pants. Helps cool the body. As we humans sweat to cool down our body Animals most anyway pant And you have seen your birds come into the loft landind board and pant through there beak for a short time And pant less as they are more conditioned. So I believe the motive to be more for keep the core temp cooler . Just a thought.


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## parrisc (Feb 14, 2007)

Is this a great world or what? If we were all the same, we wouldn't need each other,
we would only need me.


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

Eric K, it's in the special features of the DVD.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

A pigeon in the loft,or just hanging around outside,and maybe slapping around a few laps etc,doesn`t need any more AIR to breathe...He can do so with his beak closed,and his slit closed...Now,the said pigeon is in a race...A tuff race...It`s either hot,or it is a HEADWIND race,or both...This pigeon has to OPEN up to get more air...What he is doing,is keeping his body fresher/stronger,by getting more air...If the bird has a open slit at birth,he cannot do anything to help him stay strong,with more energy to race home...My Dad used to give away any YB with a open slit,to the chicken market...
Now,I have seen birds with a slightly open slit win races...FAST RACES...Not tuff slow races...This is what the big difference is between an open slit pigeon,and one with a closed slit...
LOFT 532.....What the heck does OLR`s have to do with LD racing at 500 to 600 miles...I have never shipped any pigeons to one loft races,and probally never will...I have shipped birds to a few Convention races,and have won money...I have flown futurity races,and have gotten my rear end handed to me if the races were 1400++ YPM....When the $$$ races were under 1100 yds per minute,I have won money quite a few times...One race I remember was a real tuff 300+ mile YB futurity...Only 54 Day birds clocked...17 of them, flown by myself,and 2 other lofts for a total of 17,were all bred by me....500 mile race with 12 Day birds,I was 5th...The very 1st $$ race back in 1984 that I flew in my rookie year,there was only 28 day birds clocked,I had one...
As you can see,my family of pigeons will not fly real fast...That`s NOT their makeup...They are bred for hard races....In this part of the country,the average speed is very slow...Because of the wind,and mountains the birds have to fly over etc...
YB racing the last two years,only one race out of 16,there was a speed over 1400ypm...Everything else was under 1250ypm...So why should I even try to keep pigeons that can only fly fast on nice days...There are hardly any nice days here for the birds to race with....Alamo


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

Alamo, "LOFT 532.....What the heck does OLR`s have to do with LD racing at 500 to 600 miles..."


"...I will tell you about one man..Who passed away within the last year or so...He raced/lived in Engalnd...He won more races then Ganus would ever think of winning...The man`s name is Frank Tasker....He was a MIDDLE DISTANCE speacialist at that...NOT a LD racing loft..."


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Loft 532...Still wondering what One Loft racing (OLR) Youngbirds !! has to do with Long Distance Racing ??
Frank Tasker was a "Middle Distance" specialist....And a Man who is a specialist in MD raceing,who beleives and has proven over 30+ years that it takes a pigeon with a closed slit/curtain,as good as it can get to win every darn week...NO matter what the weather is,no matter how the wind is blowing etc...
I have a result here from 1965 BCA out of NYC...380 Lofts bought 6112 Bands...312 Lofts shipped 2956 birds...The winning speed was 878.88....How much you want to bet the bird had a OPEN slit ??? .......Alamo


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## LOFT 532 (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm still wondering why even after I quoted you, you keep talking about 500-600 mile races then talking about Frank Tasker? You said, and I'll quote you "Middle Distance" specialist...." Yes I know who he is, yes I've watched the DVD, etc etc. Now to answer your question about me bringing up one loft races. You said "Loft532..... You have a lot to learn !!" So I just thought I'd ask what olr's you were going to enter and how many birds you were sending? I was thinking I might do the same, but I guess that didn't pick your intrest and now you wanna place a bet on a race that is in the past? I'm all for a healthy disagreement, but I'm not sure this forum is, I've seen disagreements ended with censorship and the thread closed, and fingers pointed at me. You have your ideas and I have mine. Until we meet on the same playing field I guess we'll never know. Good luck and take care.


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