# kit box vs loft



## chayi (May 1, 2010)

Why is it that the kit box is so small vs the loft and ive seen people put alot of birds in a kit box and have them living there and then i see people put homers in a loft and give them 2 square foot per bird?


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I don't know but was thinking the same thing.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Keep in mind I am new to homers. What I have observed is that homers given space seem to mature a bit more rapidly and be a bit stronger. There is also the breeding aspect. Most homer lofts need to "replenish" the ranks (I have lost 8 out of 16 birds this month; 1 came back last night so there is still hope) from training and racing let alone everyday flying. Nest boxes are big (24x16x16) you need to keep mated pairs and chicks super healthy.

Another factor is neighbors. With the high "PETA mentality" in the US there is an assumption that all animal need space. So to keep folks happy we build bigger lofts and talk about "spacer per bird", easy of cleaning (less accrued fecal matter per sqft), and general pest control. So in my case, the neighbors are pleased that I care enough to give the birds space and a clean home. 

That said one of the winning guys in our club runs 1/2sqft per bird by my calculations. His results speak for themselves. He wins.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> Keep in mind I am new to homers. What I have observed is that homers given space seem to mature a bit more rapidly and be a bit stronger. There is also the breeding aspect. Most homer lofts need to "replenish" the ranks (I have lost 8 out of 16 birds this month; 1 came back last night so there is still hope) from training and racing let alone everyday flying. Nest boxes are big (24x16x16) you need to keep mated pairs and chicks super healthy.
> 
> Another factor is neighbors.* With the high "PETA mentality" in the US there is an assumption that all animal need space.* So to keep folks happy we build bigger lofts and talk about "spacer per bird", easy of cleaning (less accrued fecal matter per sqft), and general pest control. So in my case, the neighbors are pleased that I care enough to give the birds space and a clean home.
> 
> That said one of the winning guys in our club runs 1/2sqft per bird by my calculations. His results speak for themselves. He wins.



Would you want to live in 1/2 square foot of space? Why would you want to do that to to any living creature? That's just ridiculous. He may get results, but doesn't care much about the needs of his birds.
*All living animals DO need space.*


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I didn't say I agreed with his methods or the environment he creates. As a racer he wins _in spite of_ the short space. And his birds are healthy. The best birds that were given to us have been from this one person (best in context of trap training, basic loft flying, and not getting lost while loft flying). He bucks the trend noted in the original post. 

Personally we are going with 2sqft/bird in our prisoner loft, 1sqft/bird in our current YB loft and will be going with 3sqft/bird in our final loft (widow/yb combo). Keep in mind that cubic feet is probably more important the square feet since birds inhabit a 3d space much differently than other animal types. 

For example, a 4x4x8 loft has 128cuft. if we take 2 feet of the top (4x4x6) we find that we only have 96cuft. If we consider that standard forced breeding space is only 4.5cuft (24x18x18) two feet of reduced height in out 4x4 space actually reduces the space by 7 units of forced breeding. This would be 14 birds. 

All that to suggest that sqft may not be the best indicator of bird living conditions.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well the number of square feet is a good measure to go by to insure that they have a large enough space regardless. The more space, the better. Less stress for the birds too.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

rollers are placed into small kit box because it stops them from flying in the loft. rollers are placed in kit box with tight perched so they cant streach their wings. 
if a roller flies in the kit box it wouldn't want to fly outside when released. 
if rollers stretched their wings then they wouldn't want to roll when released.

you would have to raised rollers for you to understand how hard it is to make them fly for at least 20 mins and not over 1 hr.
and making them roll is another hard topic.

now racers are placed in big lofts because they need to fly and stretch their wings all the time or they wont be fit to race.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

fresnobirdman said:


> rollers are placed into small kit box because it stops them from flying in the loft. rollers are placed in kit box with tight perched so they cant streach their wings.
> if a roller flies in the kit box it wouldn't want to fly outside when released.
> if rollers stretched their wings then they wouldn't want to roll when released.
> 
> ...


DITTO......breeding lofts are bigger , kit boxes are used for (athaletes) in training


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Well the number of square feet is a good measure to go by to insure that they have a large enough space regardless. The more space, the better. Less stress for the birds too.


yes i agree with you but all people have diffrent methods and yes i agree with at least 4 square feet but lets keep it com thanks


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> rollers are placed into small kit box because it stops them from flying in the loft. rollers are placed in kit box with tight perched so they cant streach their wings.
> if a roller flies in the kit box it wouldn't want to fly outside when released.
> if rollers stretched their wings then they wouldn't want to roll when released.
> 
> ...


Never knew that it was hard to make rollers fly.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

*Kit box*

Remember pigeons kept in kit bxes are let out (or should be) to fly on a regular basis as (in my case 2-3 times a day) Rollers & these kit bxes are used as a place to rest , eat & drink. In the case of the prisoner birds as there called those who are never let out they do need more loft space & a large aviary to fly in. Would I want to live in 2sq ft no I weigh 250 ) but neither would I like to eat bird seed.But really should we be arguing over this it's what PETA likes to see ( divide & conquer ).SP?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Ross,

I don't think it is so much argue or division as it is an honest question of "sqft vs cuft". Example: 32sqft is good for how many prisoner birds? What about 64cuft? 128cuft? what about 192cuft? All of them have a 32sqft base (8x4), but one is 2ft high, one 4ft high and one is 6ft high. I think if we start talking about cuft then we can realistically talk about crowding since birds "stack", unlike say dogs or cats.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

I quess it depends on wether there walkers (jacobins) or flyers what I was talking about was kit bxs birds kept close together fly (kit ) together better. The kit bx is for eating ,drinking (like our kitchen small ) sleeping small like bedrm but when they go out they have whole sky to fly ( large aviary ) the way I see it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> Ross,
> 
> I don't think it is so much argue or division as it is an honest question of "sqft vs cuft". Example: 32sqft is good for how many prisoner birds? What about 64cuft? 128cuft? what about 192cuft? All of them have a 32sqft base (8x4), but one is 2ft high, one 4ft high and one is 6ft high. I think if we start talking about cuft then we can realistically talk about crowding since birds "stack", unlike say dogs or cats.


32 square feet=16 birds. The more you crowd, the more stress= more sickness.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Does anybody know of any documented, scientific tests done on space for pigeons or is it all he said , she said. , I think. My rule of thumb is to watch my birds closely & they will tell me if there is a problem it's called animal husbandry & learned through experience.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well supposedly the formula that states 2 square feet of floor space per bird was written by experts. Birds need room, especially if they are prisoners.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

I agree if they are as you call ''prisoners''& never let out.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

chayi said:


> Never knew that it was hard to make rollers fly.



yea it is.
for people who doesn't know, rollers are lazy birds that would perch on trees, poles, all day. i think rollers can tolerate a hunger level way higher than racers. 

if you over feed rollers they wont fly and if you let them into a big loft where they can fly inside then they wont want to fly when you release then. 

on occasions where you would get to see a pro roller man, you would immediate notice that most of their kit box are extra tight and their rollers are almost underfed.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> yea it is.
> for people who doesn't know, rollers are lazy birds that would perch on trees, poles, all day. i think rollers can tolerate a hunger level way higher than racers.
> 
> if you over feed rollers they wont fly and if you let them into a big loft where they can fly inside then they wont want to fly when you release then.
> ...


My kitbox for my rollers is 32" X 32" X 42" tall. That is only six square feet of floor space, but the kitbox is designed to accommodate twenty birds. From talking with other keepers of rollers, I have found this to be a pretty standard size.

When I calculate square footage, can I include the square footage of the nest boxes and perches? My breeding coop is only twelve square feet of floor space, but when you add in the eight nest boxes and sixteen box perches, it comes to a lot more. I think this qualifies as what somebody previously posted about "vertical space."


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

ptras, 

I think you are referring to my questions/statements about cubic feet vs square feet for space calculation. 

I am not sure how other folks are counting nest boxes. In my thoughts though, I think the vertical space needs to be considered as 2 square feet in a six foot high space will house 5 good sized nest boxes. Since birds truly use all 3 dimensions in their daily life I am not sure how we can confine their space requirements to a 2 dimension measurement. 

From what I have seen locally, the best birds come from folks that use a lot of "stacked" loft space with lots of fly time or lots of flat loft space with little fly time (this is racing, not show). At the end of the day there is no question that birds need space. I think it is more a question of what space, and how you measure it that matters. 

Another quick question for folks, do you count aviary space as loft space?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> ptras,
> 
> I think you are referring to my questions/statements about cubic feet vs square feet for space calculation.
> 
> ...


When they came up with the formula, I'm sure they took cubic feet into consideration, and the fact that birds use the three dimentions. And 2 square feet of floor space is what they came up with, in order to keep the birds healthy and happy, and the stress levels down. No, they don't count aviary space in their formula. But people still try to justify crowding more birds into a space, whether it be for the birds best interest or not. It just comes down to whether it is more important to have more birds, or whether it is more important to have healthy happy birds. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves. You can discuss it til the cows come home, but that doesn't change the fact that more space is better all around.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Jay3,

I think we actually agree. My thoughts on this came from some struggles my son and I were having with our prisoner loft. He is short (he is also 13). Since the birds are as much his (maybe more his) We needed to make sure that the ceiling was low enough to keep the birds in reach. As I started looking at that various designs and standards on space It dawned on my that there were height assumptions being made. Using an example for humans, would you be willing to live in a 5000sqft house that only had 4ft high ceilings? 

In our case we cut back the number of nest boxes to account for the lower ceiling and increased the aviary size. Works out to 2.67sqft per bird because we lowered the ceiling to 6ft (excluding aviary spaces). In cubic foot terms it works out to 16cuft per bird, which is the same number of cubic feet per bird is you use an 8ft ceiling and the 2 square foot standard. 

I think we are on the same page here.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think it's great that your son and you share this hobby together. I wasn't trying to argue with you. Just stating what the formula is.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks Jay3. I got to tell you, this has been great with the boy. We are spending a whole lot more time together and we get to practice all the "maths" stuff in a practical way that supports our desire to manage animals. 

As to the formula, I guess I am wondering if the best interests of the animals isn't better served by making it just a tad more complicated and adding the third dimension. Something like "2 sqft per bird with an 8 ft ceiling".


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'll bet it means just as much to your son as it does to you. Nice to have a hobby in common. Makes you closer.
Interesting concept. Things change all the time. Maybe time to work on the old formula.


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