# Help! Pigeon with partially squished head!



## Otis7

When I found this bird I thought I was bringing him home to give him a quiet place to die. He was huddled in a wet field. His head is partially squished, his eyes are swollen two to three times their normal size, blood red with occasional droops of pink fluid coming out. When I grabbed him he was able to fly, I managed to rip out half his tail feathers in the struggle to grab him. He made it about 10 feet to a bottom power line wire before dropping to the ground. Got him in my car eventually, where he perched on my shoulder the entire 20 minute car ride home. I don't know if he can see or not. He is still responsive, he still puts up a good fight if handled. I've got him in a pen with feed and water, which I'm not sure if he can find. I was able to dip his beak and he took two good sips of water. He's been in this condition for at least 7 hours, as my boyfriend had driven by him and noticed him also. He's warm, safe, and hopefully as comfortable as he can be.


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## Otis7

I'm located on the eastern shore of Maryland, the only antibiotic I have is sulmont for my chickens. I'm willing to give this bird as much home care as he needs. There are no avian vets in this area, and if there were I truly cannot afford to get him there right now. I recently lost the only other pigeon ive ever had, so this guy is welcome here if he pulls through!


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## Otis7

If there is an antibiotic I can get into him I will rush order it tonight. I really want to help this guy.


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## Otis7

Well, it's off to bed for me. I'll be away from him for 8 hours tomorrow assuming he makes it through the night. Any help would be much appreciated. Hoping I dont wake up to a dead bird.


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## pigeon-lover0

I am sorry to see that you are the only one and you have not had any replies yet! The best I say you could do is make him as comfortable as possible and see if he pulls throught tonight. From the look of it it does not seem his head is squashed.


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## pigeon-lover0

Seems the head is rather swollen?


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## Dima

His eye look bad. If he cannot see or he cannot eat, he must be hand fed: seeds, defrosted peas. He probably needs an noninflammatory medication.

Thank you for rescuing. He can get better if he's not in this situation for too long and gets the best medical attention.


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## Otis7

From all views it appears his head got sacked and misshaped, the only word I could think to describe it was "squished.". 

He pulled through the night. Got him to take a few more sips of water, no food yet. He has some peas in his pen. I've tried waving the. Around his beak and moving the food directly in front of him and leaving him be. With my past pigeon once I popped a pea in his mouth he ate readily, but I'm afraid to handle this guys head.

I won't be able to do anything vet wise until I get paid on Friday, have a dog who's sucking up the funds right now. I can try my regular vet to see if she can come up with something for him. I've had bad experiences with taking birds to inexperienced bird vets. Is there anything over the counter I could give him to bring down the swelling?


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## Otis7

Another concern, he cannot close his eyes. Where they were blood red last night they are brown this morning. I'm worried his eyes are going to dry up but not sure what I can do about.


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## thepigeonkey

Poor bird. I can't belive no one has told you how to help the bird yet. I'm not a rescuer and almost never see sick birds but I would suggest you incourage it to eat and drink as much as possible. You may need a cage with a wood or flat floor and put down some wheat, brown rice, bird seed or peas if its too weak to eat you should probably handfeed it some peas and keep it warm. I don't think you'll hurt it much. Just put your hand behind its head and grab the base of its beak with your thumb and finger on each side then force the pea inand down to the back of its tongue. it should swallow. It probably needs about twenty peas a day at least.


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## thepigeonkey

Is it feral? No leg ring?


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## Msfreebird

Hi Otis7. For now, until you can examine him better, I would set on a heating pad (covered with a towel, set on low). Tepid water with a dash of salt and sugar in it. You said he is drinking...with your help?
You are going to need to examine him, but you are right, I would be careful holding his head. Looks like a possible head injury. I would use gauze, soaked in warm water to compress (clean) his eyes, but don't put any pressure on them. Just let the soaked gauze rest over the eyes to moisten them.
Any poops? What do they look like? You will need to check his throat to make sure its clear and check for any cuts, punctures or bruises on his body. Once you get him stable, I would wrap him real good in a towel so you could try feeding him some peas without having to touch his skull, just his beak.
Poor little guy


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## thepigeonkey

What kind of peas? From the freezer? or pigeon peas?


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## Msfreebird

thepigeonkey said:


> What kind of peas? From the freezer? or pigeon peas?


Frozen peas, defrosted/soaked in warm water.


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## Msfreebird

Have to get ready for work....hopefully someone will be along to help!


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## Otis7

I believe he's a feral pigeon, I work at a farm with a large population of wild pigeons, which is where I found him.

I got him to eat the inside of one pea and then gave him a break as it stressed him quite a bit. He was very tired afterwards. He's in our laundry room with a space heater right now. The room is quite warm. I don't own a heat pad. I checked him when I first found him but didn't find any wounds. His eyes are still actively bleeding a bit, there was a small smudge on my shirt after feeding him. I tried to get some better pictures of his eyes. I gave aspirin to a broken legged chicken once, can pigeons take it?


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## Skyeking

*Thank you for taking good care of this poor little bird.

Please follow instructions on the following link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-8822.html 

If he is suffering from blunt trauma then the heating pad would not be good.

I think at this point a thin bird formula fed to him would be best, and yes you do need to check and see if there is a blockage down his throat. *


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## Jaye

First off, thanks for caring !

Make a vet appt. for Friday,_ now._... if that is when you will have the money.

I agree with the other member who said an anti-inflammatory might be the way to go. You have other animals. Do you have any Metacam (also called Meloxicam) ? A vet can prescribe it. If you do, give him .1cc twice a day.

Also, it could be that an infection is causing the swelling, so perhaps an antibiotic would also ease it.

It is really a critical situation and if there is ANY way you can get to a vet today or tom'w that would up the chances significantly, I would say.

If not, keep feeding the peas (try to get 7-10 in one feeding and do at least 3 feedings a day....really, he needs 5 or 6 feedings but at least some nourishment is something).

It really might have been a head injury which has become infected. Or it could just be an infection with no head injury. Don't give aspirin. If you don't have metacam, do you have any other pain relievers you use for your chickens ?

One more thing....I am wondering if canker can cause this, at least in part. Check inside his mouth...are there any white or yellow specks or cheesy-looking growths, or phlegm ?????


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## Jay3

He really does need to see a vet who knows birds. 
As far as feeding, you can take frozen peas and defrost and warm them under warm running water. He should be getting about 50 peas a couple of times a day, or you could do it in 3 feedings, and give 30 to 35 each time. But only feed after the crop empties. You don't want to give him more food unless it is passing through. If you don't get enough food into him, he is going to starve anyway.


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## Otis7

If anyone knows a bird vet in Maryland, please let me know. I wouldn't be able to go until weekends unfortunately. I'll call my vet tomorrow and see if I can get metacam for him. She knows me fairly well and should be ok with it.

He made it through the work day. I just got 5 peas in him, he really is putting up a fight and I fear stressing him. I'm giving him a 20 minute break before I try again. He pooped before I left for work, it was green/white, runny. He pooped a bit more when I fed him when I got home, brownish, runny. All he wants to do is perch. I am starting to see some of his puple coming up from the bottom of one of his eyes, hopefully that means the swelling is going down a bit.

Mouth was pink and clear, don't know how down his throat I looked but I didn't see anything odd.

New issue, his mouth is always partially cracked. I looked at his beak and it nearly appeared his nostrils were caked over, but his beak is so dark its hard to tell. Is it possible that whatever blood rushed to his eyes has blocked his nasal passages? Maybe that is playing a roll in his issues with eating and drinking? Can't get him to take more then two sips of water. Should I try a warm compress?


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## Otis7

I went ahead and wiped his nostrils with a warm gauze pad. There was blood coming off on the gauze pad. He is still breathing through his mouth, not sure how much it helped.


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## whitetail

Hi,
I'm still learning about pigeons and I'm still quite an amateur but I think he really needs an antibiotic and an anti-inflammatory and any vet can give you this; I'd say he's in a lot of pain and really needs some urgent attention. I always take my pigeons to the vet and yes, they are bird vets where I go but I'm getting used to the routine and I would say that my vet would give your bird an injection of Doxicycline, an anti-inflammatory like Meloxicam and an antibiotic like Enrotril (I'm not sure of the actual name of the compound). Any vet would be great at this point.
I hope this feedback is of some help.


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## Jay3

Second Chance Wildlife Care Center
7101 Barcellona Avenue
Gaithersburg, Md. 20879
301-926-9453


Eastern Shore Sanctuary
13981 Reading Ferry Road
Princess Anne, MD 21853
410-651-4934


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## Otis7

I hate to embarrasses myself, but I truly have no money for this bird right now. I have an old dog who has put me through the ringer recently with health problems, she's my priority as of now. My vet is great, but she's already given me too many breaks. I don't want to tax that relationship. I can take him Friday, I will call about the metacam and get some of that into him if I can. I'd be absoluelt heartbroken if I lost this little guy because of lack of funds, but all I can do is what I can and be happy he's not out in the freezing rain we're getting in Maryland right now. I have seen some slight progress in the past day, the pupil, slightly increased energy, the fact he's still alive at least. Thank you all for the great advice and keep it coming! Need all the help I can get. I hope and pray I can get the swelling down and some good antibiotics into him ASAP.


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## Otis7

Any info on unblocking nasal passages would be greatly appreciated, I really think that would make eating and drinking much less painful


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## Otis7

Rephrase, I have no money for him until Friday.


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## Otis7

Can he take banamine/flunixin or dexamethasone? Vet I used to milk cows for has these, I could pick them up early in the am if they would work.


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## Jaye

Those aren't usual avian drugs. If the vet has those, does he have metacam ? It is really the best anti-inflammatory for birds.

Does the banamine work on chickens ? Can you ask ? if so, does he have any idea of a proper dosage for a 350gram Pigeon ?

Just keep swabbing the nostrils...I do not think trying to do anything beyond that would be wise. When feeding, wrap his body up in a towel so only his head and neck sticks out...this way he will not struggle as much. You need to feed him more than 5 peas per feeding or he will starve. Try to get it up to 10, then 15, then 20 with each successive feeding. Also, feed more than 2x/day.....


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## Otis7

Ive been feeding about 5 times a day, we are slowly increasing the amount of peas and he's taking it much better. The other pupil is coming out this morning.

He's a bovine vet, figured I'd give it a shot in case it works. Dog and I are going to the vet anyway on Friday, I'll see if I can get him an appt when I take her. It's only two days away now, I think he can make it. It looks like one nostril may be clear.


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## Msfreebird

Jaye said:


> Those aren't usual avian drugs. If the vet has those, does he have metacam ? It is really the best anti-inflammatory for birds.
> 
> Does the banamine work on chickens ? Can you ask ? if so, does he have any idea of a proper dosage for a 350gram Pigeon ?
> 
> Just keep swabbing the nostrils...I do not think trying to do anything beyond that would be wise. When feeding, wrap his body up in a towel so only his head and neck sticks out...this way he will not struggle as much. You need to feed him more than 5 peas per feeding or he will starve. Try to get it up to 10, then 15, then 20 with each successive feeding. Also, feed more than 2x/day.....


I agree with Jaye. I'm not familiar with banamine. His beak is probably partially open due to the swelling.
What about clavamox, for an antibiotic? That is usually readily available thru vets. Sounds like your making some progress with him.
Sorry I'm not here much to help....have some personal issues at home, elderly mother had emergency surgery, so I can only check in first thing in the morning.


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## Jaye

Sorry to hear..I am and have been there with Mom as well. Hang in there. Hope all is getting better.

MsFreebird makes a good point. IF the vet is a mammal vet, he may not know too much about avians as it is a highly specialized veterinary field.

Metacam as an anti-inflammatory and either Clavamox or Ciproflaxin as an antibiotic would be the best medications to get if the doc can swing them or if he can at least send the prescription to a compounding pharmacy which can make them up for you (most vets nowadays can do that).

A typical strength of Ciproflaxin for birds is 25mg/ml. For Clavamox, 125mg/ml. Metacam has 2 strengths, 1.5 mg and 0.5mg...either can work on birds, the dosages would differ.

It sounds like there is mild improvement in the swelling. It is always good news when the eye begins to appear again. Keep up the feeding.


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## Otis7

Sorry to hear about your mother, and thank you much for your help! I dont have clavimox either unfortunately. I had a bad feeling when I left for work today, he ate 10 peas but he seemed weak. Very glad to come home to find lots of poops and two eye balls emerging out of the swelling. He ate a few peas, but he hasn't been drinking much water. Havent gotten a good gulp from him all day. Oh, his beak was closed too, so no more mouth breathing. Off to the vet at noon tomorrow. Hopefully he'll find a bit of relief.


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## altgirl35

Oh this poor poor guy, no rehabbers down your way?


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## Otis7

Couldn't get him to a rehabber any faster then I can get him to a vet tomorrow, but I don't know of any terribly close by. My hope is to rerelease him to the farm, maybe he can be reuinited with a mate. It'll be awhile though, he lost a lot of feathers. That's of course barring any permanent disabilities. Can't rule out blindness or brain damage at this point. If that's the case he's welcome as a house bird.


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## Jay3

Can you hold him and feed him at least 30 or 40 peas 3 times a day? If you are holding him, he has no choice. He will eat what you put in his mouth and push to the back of his throat, over the tongue. He isn't getting enough food, and is going to get weaker quickly. If you can get one pea into him, then you can do more.


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## altgirl35

Yeah, don't jump ahead to far, he looks pretty bad and must be suffering 
If he's not eating or drinking he will go down even faster 
He needs emergency care, def get those peas into him at the very least


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## Otis7

I'm definitely feeding him. I start at 5:30 give him a few, it's exhausting for him, he's a fighter no matter how much I hold him. When I let him go, he's content just to sit on my hand. At 6:00 I give a few more. At 6:30 I give more. We did 20 peas this morning. I get home at 4, boyfriend gets home a bit earlier and offers water, but I don't make him feed. We did 9 peas between 4 and 5. I will do another feeding at 6:30. Then another before bed. I am trying my best, and he is digesting and feeding. He has a solid tray of seed and peas if he were to find them during the day. We've made big progress with feeding in the past few days, it is getting better and he is digesting well. He is stronger, not weaker, though the lack of water intake is concerning. Tomorrow he will get some medicine, which he desperately needs. 

Yes, his condition is poor. I worry every morning he will be dead. I am pretty dedicated to this boy though, I will keep feeding often, keep pushing the limit and getting more into him.


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## Otis7

Another 10 peas down,thank you all for the advice and motivation. I'm pushing him and myself to get this done. Well do another 10 before bed, then it's goodnight for both of us.


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## Otis7

And lucky news for him, he's going to a vet who sees birds


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## altgirl35

Awesome! Crossing fingers and praying for him
I wrap the fighters pretty tight in a hand towel with just their head sticking out
Birdie burrito
Good luck tmrw


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## Quazar

Be sure to mention that he is a PET bird not a feral as some vets may insist on euthanising when it is usually NOT necessary, even if the bird is partially blind, it may not be able to be released, but it will make a good house pet.
I have a partially blind bird that was hit by the top of a parcel van as it flew under a bridge, and literally "bounced" along the road.
The side of its head was covered in blood & I really didnt think it would survive. That was in March last year and It has adapted to indoor life extremely well.


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## Otis7

I've took my chickens to a vet who insisted I put two separate chickens down. One died do to his shoddy work and lack of knowledge, the other, who he told me to euthnize that night do to a badly broken leg, now runs through the yard like crazy and lays beautiful eggs. I will not let them put him down, he's made it so far. He's a fighter, and being he's in my care now he's a pet, whether released or not in the end. My main goal now is metacam and antibiotics. I'm planning on bringing the computer with me to reference this thread if need be.


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## Otis7

9 peas down for the last feeding, bed time for him. 

I will say, this is a very touching bird. From a riding on my shoulder on the commute home, to his love of perching on my fingers. I don't know what he can perceive, sense or see, but he does seem to enjoy the closeness and warmth of humans. After feeding tonight he crawled up my jacket and stuck his head under my chin, seemed very content there. We sat there for awhile, and I felt bad sticking him back on his perch alone. I'll update in the morning and when we get home from the vet. Thanks again for all the advice.


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## altgirl35

Aww poor guy 
I hope the vet gives him metacam , his poor little head must hurt so bad
I would dose a injury like that pretty high like .5mg/kg twice a day
You can also ice his head
Wrap a small amount of frozen peas in a paper towel and hold on his head for 5 minutes every 1/2 hour to an hour


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## Skyeking

The poor little guy, looking forward to your next update.

Thanks again, for helping him.


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## Otis7

He's on antibiotics, baytril once a day. He also got an anti biotic ointment for his eyes. No metacam, vet said no. She's a good vet but stubborn as he'll, doesn't like other people giving her ideas...oh well. She did say he was thin, so upping the peas and adding some dog food to the mix to hopefully up the weight. Hoping the anti booties will get him feeling better. I hope as soon as he can see he will start eating on his own.


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## Otis7

Anti booties...thank you auto correct


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## Quazar

Dont understand why no metacalm, it would have helped reduce the swelling around the eye and possibly by doing so prevent any further damage !!


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## Otis7

I am just as frustrated. I'm going to call the other two vets in town and see if they can spare a few cc's. It's not like anyone can abuse a pigeon dose of antiinflammatories, especially sine they don't have any liability with a wild bird. 40 peas tonight


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## Otis7

I put a post on Facebook asking my pet owner friends if they have metacam. Hopefully someone has some stashed in a cabinet.


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## altgirl35

Where do you live Otis and do you have a weight on him?


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## altgirl35

Did she think it was infection rather than trauma?


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## Jaye

Well...good on the antibiotics. That should help significantly...I think, because I am guessing all of that inflammation wasn't caused solely by an impact injury or trauma. The original injury may have been trauma....

A big Bronx Cheer for the 'no' on metacam. Stubborn or not, when one has access to something which might help and will certainly do no harm...why not try it ? I know that it has a reputation for renal damage with prolonged use...but for short-term use there's nothing better. I am out of it myself or I would express-mail you a syringe full.

Hopefully someone can come up with some. If not, can you ask the vet if she can prescribe any other anti-inflammatory ?

The other thing is...Baytril ONCE a day ??? Someone can correct me but the usual prescription is every 12 hours, as a single dose cannot last more than half a day. What is the suspension (mg per ml) and the dosage you were prescribed ?

You have done well...keep it up.


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## Jaye

BTW...with that behaviour you mention, he/she is clearly not a Feral. Might have been someone's pet, or at least a domestic-raised loft bird. All the better you found each other as he/she would have been a goner out in the world.


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## Otis7

He's getting .1ml baytril once a day, the eye ointment twice a day. I'm still struggling tom get him to drink water. No gulps yesterday at all, none this morning. I've been making sure the peas were extra wet so he is at least getting something. Were up to 25 peas a feeding.

If anyone can mail me some Meloxicam, I would gladly pay the shipping. 

I don't think she was the most experienced bird vet, she said nothing about what caused the injury, and said she thought the swelling would go down on it's own with the antibiotics. They were not good at handling him and wouldn't let me help. They were struggling to get him out of the carrier, and didn't listen when I told them just to hold out a finger. I was a bit frustrated but any help for him is good help right now.

I'm still not sure of his origins, I do still believe he's a feral, just a very weak and uninspired bird. I figured the reason he perches on me is because he can't see and prefers the security of a perch, but who knows. I know he can put up a good fight and he doesn't fight basic handling. Maybe he is a former pet bird. Will find out when/if he recovers. With how far he's come, I think he's almost ready for a name!


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## altgirl35

One thought on the metacam, mbe because you don't feel he is drinking enough is why she didn't want to give it to you
Should never give metacam to a dehydrated animal, that's when it can cause problems
If you want you can split his dose in half and give it to him twice a day
Will have a better effect
I get lots of birds that are docile in the beginning 
It's not a good thing when a wild will give you no fight
Hopefully he will start fighting you soon!
How about children's ibuprofen? Need a weight in grams to figure out dose
Can send some metacam, why I asked where your located 
Have a non profit meeting this morning, n have to leave shortly 
Mbe give him ibuprofen till it comes in the mail


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## altgirl35

Split the Baytril dose in half, sorry didn't specify


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## altgirl35

Would like to know what the mg/ml of the Baytril is and his weight to make sure she is giving him the maximum dose too


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## Otis7

She didn't mention dehydration when she denied the metacam, but that makes sense. I asked about aspirin in the beginning of this thread, but was told not to give it him. I can do children's ibuprofen? 

He does put up quite a fight! He's a struggler for sure, fights me hard through the entire force feeding, but when I give him a break he jumps up and perches on my finger. He's a tough bird. 

Ill pm you my address if you're willing to send it. I can send money through 'pop money' from pnc, what's the cost of shipping? 

I will not give it to him unless water intake increases. Is it possible he feels he is getting enough water through peas compared to seed that he does not feel as thirsty? I would imagine it is not good to force feed water. I am simply still dipping his beak.


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## Otis7

As far as his weight, I don't know how to get it for you. Don't own a gram scale and don't know anyone who does. I'd say he's a medium weight pigeon, if there is an average estimation, on the lighter side do to lack of proper nutrition the past few days. I can feel his breastbone.


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## altgirl35

Not sure how much it will cost till I'm at the post office sending it
I do 2day air 
Only way I would force water it to tube it in his crop
Mbe by the time it gets there the ibuprofen and Baytril will be helping him 
And he will be drinking 
Remember I need weight to proper calculate dose


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## altgirl35

Oh shoot, thinking around 250 for skinny ferals in my area
Any one else have a guesstimate?


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## altgirl35

They must have weighed him at the vet to dose Baytril
Give them a call


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## altgirl35

Leaving in 15..adress?


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## Otis7

They did not weigh him u fortunately


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## Msfreebird

I wouldn't give Ibuprofen. I don't believe its safe. Still trying to check on that.


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## Otis7

Took a little video of him today. First time I've seen him explore or seem to try and take in his surroundings. Sorry for all the inappropriate seeds and corn, was all I had when I brought him home. Bought him some pigeon food today in case he tries to eat on his own. Boyfriend named him Lewis after ray Lewis of the Baltimore ravens. I think it suits this tough little guy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pad2kSSCM8k&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Otis7

Altgirl35, I'm sorry if I missed you. I hadn't seen your posts until too late, hope you got the pm in time and this wasnt an inconvenience.


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## altgirl35

It's safe for birds ms, got the dosage for birds from my vet
It's in the mail, should prob get it on Tuesday
If you don't have money don't worry about it 
If you do, donate to thru the website 
www.CAWildBirdRescue.org
And sign my petition!!

http://signon.org/sign/help-save-the-cape-ann.fb23?source=s.icn.fb&r_by=330556


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## Jaye

I still do not buy that he's a Feral, IMHO. The snuggling bit...even a Feral would not do that with a human.

Also....we cannot exactly know whether to halve the Baytril dosage and do it twice a day, unless we know the suspension of the dosage (how strong a mix is it ?) So it should say on the bottle/jar. It will be in mg/ml. Please let us know that. The last thing we would wanna do is inadvertently be giving two weak dosages a day....

Regarding dehydration...you got it right.....the peas thawed in water will provide enough hydration. 25 peas/feeding is very good !!!!! 

Glad AG can help out with the Metacam....that is very laudable.

Keep it up.


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## Otis7

All I have is a full syringe of the baytril from the vet, no bottle. It's a 1ml syringe, .1 a day. I gave him his full dose after breakfast before I read to halve it. Would gladly change things if you all agree it would be best.

I think I agree with you jaye, though he's a pretty tough bird there is an intermittent and strange level of trust, I first attributed it to weakness but at times I'm stumped. He most definitely does not like to be force fed, but he does like to be close to me. He also doesn't mind being petted. If he makes it, i don't think he's going anywhere. Not unless he says so.


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## Otis7

I still don't have a dosage on the children's ibuprofen (talk to me like I am a 5 year old, math is not my speciality). 

Alt girl, thank you very much! The petition will be signed and a donation made. I'd still love to cover shipping costs!

I can't thank you all enough. I never thought little Lewis would make it this far, and I am grateful for all the knowledge. In the year I've worked at the farm this is the second pigeon I've brought home, I'm sure there will be many more to come. I hope with every one relief will come more swiftly.


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## altgirl35

Oh shoot, wish I knew that about the Baytril could have sent a little to you
Go buy the children's ibuprofen and once we know the strength we can figure out the dose
Shipping was only 2 bucks, not sure the value of the metacam 
Sent you about 2 1/2 mls of the 1.5 can't remember what I paid for the big bottle
But my vet only charges me cost, mbe 5 bucks worth idk
No worries, metacam should last you into many future birds
Just keep it in the dark


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## altgirl35

I've had owls and seagulls act like that
I hope he's still friendly when he past this just don't set your heart on it!


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## Otis7

My heart is only set on his recovery. I've wanted another pigeon since the little squeaker I raised got taken by a hawk, but ive been waiting for a rescue. (for reference, I will never let a loan pigeon fly again, thought I was doing the right thing and I was wrong). If he says "I hate you human take me back to the farm," he will be released. If he says "I like you alright, this is a good place," he will stay. If he says "I hate you," but is permenantly disabled I will work with him to positively reinforce a relationship with humans.


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## altgirl35

Sounds perfect!


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## Otis7

Shouldmismplit the dose of baytril?


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## altgirl35

I think it works better if you split it half and dose twice a day


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## Otis7

Gave the regular dose again this morning, but will try splitting it tomorrow.

Does anyone have ideas to offer inspiration to a wounded bird? With my broken chickens I always gave them short periods of time outside, even if it was just laying in the garden for a minute or two. I always felt this helped speed their recovery, and give them motivation to get better. I gave Lewis the option to take a warm bath yesterday, but he wasn't interested. I had noticed him turn his head to attempt to preen, but the pain must have been too much. Tried playing YouTube videos of pigeons cooing as well. Was thinking a sun bath today?


----------



## altgirl35

I think letting him hang out by a sunny window would be wonderful


----------



## Otis7

He hung out in the sun a bit today. In the different lighting I noticed his eye lids looked green, almost gooey. Would this be a normal part of the healing process, or something to be concerned about?


----------



## Dima

HI Otis7,

I read your thread everyday. I am thankful that the pigeon found you

I want to jump in with my observation on Green eyelids, looking gooey.
When i had anaphylactic shocks, allergies on food, also my eyes were getting swollen and the eye lids were greenish from lack of oxygen. So i wonder if this pigeon got poisoned. I don't know poisoning in pigeons gives this swollen eye & eyelid reaction. Just an idea.

But also pigeon having a direct hit in the head could give this reaction. 

I am glad that he tried to preen himself. This is a good sign. His pain may be going away.


----------



## Jaye

Sun is OK but do not give him the opportunity to fly away (meaning if outside, keep him enclosed in something). What is the temperature there ?

As he convalesces, keep him warm most of the time, as previously mentioned. This means an ambient temp. of 75 degrees.

Skip the bath for now, we don't wanna exacerbate the eye situation with water getting in 'em.

Call the vet and find out the suspension of the Baytril. This is important because you don't wanna render the Baytril too weak by splitting the dose. Offhand...a .1cc dosage sounds odd, but again it depends upon the strength of the suspension.


----------



## Otis7

I wouldn't rule out poisoning, this farm grows monstanto, and who knows what he could get into. We have everything and it isn't necessarily properly contained. I actualy recently rushed my dog to the vet after a day at the farm, she was vomiting, had diarrhea, pale gums and was shaking. They induced vomiting and gave some meds and she was fine the next day.

Blunt trauma is still my first guess. He was sitting just a few feet from the road in a field, maybe about 5 or 6 feet. Though the road doesn't get heavy traffic, I imagine he was clipped by a car. Though I never do see pigeons hang out there, they stick to the back pastures, barns and lofts. Maybe that is a point in the direction of a pet pigeon not a feral.

He is kept warm. He is living inside now, in our bathroom in a cage. 

His eyes









You can see his pupil a bit in this one


----------



## Otis7

It's cold here, 20's to 30's at night and 30's to 40's in the day. Wouldn't dare put him outside.


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## Otis7

He is not in 75 degrees, we keep it 58 to 60 in here during the winter. 

I'll call on Monday, they are closed weekends. How much does the suspension of baytril vary? Came out of a pink and white box, doubt that helps but who knows.

Dima, thanks for reading! Im glad he's here too! we sure enjoy having him around, can't wait to enjoy him healthy!


----------



## Dima

I wouldn't let him out too, until he is healthy.
May be an ointment on his eyes would do good.


----------



## Otis7

He is getting an antibiotic eye ointment twice a day. The greenish tint didn't start until the ointment.


----------



## Dima

Otis7 said:


> He is getting an antibiotic eye ointment twice a day. The greenish tint didn't start until the ointment.


What's the ointment name?


----------



## Otis7

Neomycin and polymyxin b sulfates and bacitracin zinc ophthalmic ointment usp. Whew


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## altgirl35

Can go to 3 times a day with eye antibiotic ointment as long as its not the steriod kind
He looks a lot better, still bad, but much better


----------



## altgirl35

Yep,do 3 times, kick the poop out of that infection 
M


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## altgirl35

I'm thinking green is probably puss


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## Otis7

More eye shots


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## Otis7

Will up to three times a day


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## altgirl35

I'm glad I see eyes! 
I think the metacam will help a lot with that swelling 
We will prob start him on a pretty high dose for a few days 
Then lower it 
Remember you can ice his head for 5 minutes at a time
Mbe if you did that 3 times a day too that might really help him out


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## altgirl35

I think he might be a youngster, feet look pretty light pink to me


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## altgirl35

Mbe not, just appeared that way on my phone


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## Otis7

I was happy to be able to share his eyes with you guys, I only see them sparingly myself, but whenever they come out I try to snap a picture. Got lucky this time. I'm about to do an afternoon feeding, I'll ice him first.

I've been getting the old man vibe from him, hard to think of him as a youngster. Didnt know foot color could determine age, his feet are a stark pinkish red though! They have some feathers running down the inside as well, small ones.


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## Otis7

Just went out to feed and get a better picture of his feet. Poor fella, preening with eye ointment I'd no fun!
















Feet


----------



## Otis7

Is no fun*


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> More eye shots


I see his eyes


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## nancybird

Thank you for being so patient with his medical needs.You are taking very good care of him.We see eyes .


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## altgirl35

He's an adult, was just how it appeared with my itouch and I spoke before I really looked hard


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## Wodin

That's one lucky bird finding you! well done. I have seen pigeons in much worse states than this get better, so i have high hopes that yours will follow that trend


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## altgirl35

I agree, those first pics I wasn't so sure he was going to make it
He looks so much better now


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## Jaye

Yes, that is excellent news to see how far the eyes have come along.

Does he seem to be able to see around him sometimes ?

Is there any way you can up the temp in the bathroom at all ? 60 is only 'eh' for a sick bird. Their healing system actually kicks in when they are very warm, i.e. 75 F ambient. So it is more than just about keeping a bird comfortable....it is actually about boosting his own inherent healing abilities. Maybe a space heater (but not an electric coil kind, as those are toxic to birds) ?

With the Metacam, Cipro and eye topical...plus your great supportive care with food and warmth...one cannot really ask for a better setup to see him through all of this.

Keep it up.


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## altgirl35

Or a heating pad, can get a poultry or reptile heat lamp to


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## Msfreebird

He does look better, But wow, he must have one little headache! Poor little guy.
I would get rid of those shavings and put him on a heating pad (set on low) and cover it with a towel. He really needs support for keeping his body temperature up. And with eye ointment, you don't want shaving dust getting stuck in his eyes or nostrils. You'll also be able to see his poops better.

Altgirl, the baytril dose I have for pigeons is 5-10mg divided daily. I'm wondering if she has Baytril 100 (100mg/ml). That would explain the .10 ml dose. (?)


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## altgirl35

I dose birds at 15mg/kg twice a day
Think your dose might be for mammals


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## altgirl35

I bet she has the 22.7 unless doc diluted injectable 100mg/ml
To some other mg/ml
For a 250gr bird at 15mg/kg 22.7 I get .16 twice a day
Same but 100mg/ml I get .04 twice a day
Mbe she dosing slightly above 15mg/kg would be .10 once a day


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## altgirl35

I find vets usually dose a little under the max usually to be on the safe side


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## Jay3

Otis7 said:


> Shouldmismplit the dose of baytril?


Giving the Baytril in one dose has been found to be more effective. I would continue giving it in one dose daily.


----------



## Jay3

Msfreebird said:


> He does look better, But wow, he must have one little headache! Poor little guy.
> I would get rid of those shavings and put him on a heating pad (set on low) and cover it with a towel. He really needs support for keeping his body temperature up. And with eye ointment, you don't want shaving dust getting stuck in his eyes or nostrils. You'll also be able to see his poops better.




I agree with this and for all the same reasons. Heating pad set on LOW, put a towel on top of it and then put the bird on that. The shavings aren't really great for a bird anyway, and they could easily stick to the eyes. They really aren't needed.


----------



## Jaye

Jay3 said:


> Giving the Baytril in one dose has been found to be more effective. I would continue giving it in one dose daily.


Very respectfully, this is not the greatest advice, sorry.

All 5 avian vets I have used in the past decade-plus.... insist that 2 doses daily is the way to go, as Cipro/Baytril or most any antibiotic dose only lasts about 10-12 hours in the system. 

By giving a single dose daily, one allows the med to knock back the infection for half a day, then in the 12 intervening hours where little or no meds remain present in the system, the malady has a chance to rebound and fight back before the next daily dose is given. 

It actually makes the bacteria more resistant by doing one dose daily.

As long as the dosages are strong enough, 2 doses spaced 10-12 hours apart daily is the way to go on a bird.

Again, not me being argumentative...just reporting what I have been told repeatedly over time. 

I have never rec'd a prescription for Cipro/Baytril which wasn't 2x/daily.....and I have gotten about 100 prescriptions for the stuff from many a certified avian vet over the past 10-15 years. So one defers to the vets....


----------



## Quazar

Have I missed something here ?
has it been *DEFINATELY* established that the bird does *NOT* have a head trauma (irrespective of whatever else is going on)?
A bird with head trauma should *NOT* be put on a heating pad. 
By all means keep in a warm enviroment, but NOT directly on a heat pad.


----------



## altgirl35

With head trauma guys I usually won't use heat for the first 24-48 than after that I will if I feel they need it, as the days go by the risk of him bleeding out (in his brain) go down


----------



## altgirl35

Don't think we know for sure if its head trauma, makes sense that it is since he was found in the road


----------



## Quazar

altgirl35 said:


> With head trauma guys I usually won't use heat for the first 24-48 than after that I will if I feel they need it, as the days go by the risk of him bleeding out (in his brain) go down


Once the swelling goes down a good bit then maybe, but there is still a fair amount of swelling there, even though it has gone down a lot.
I personally would hold direct heat time being till the eyes at least settle back and look a bit more natural.


----------



## Otis7

Thanks for all the advice!

I intended on splitting the baytril today but accidentally gave him the full dose, my plunger finger must have gotten a bit excited.

More improvement today. When I got home from work my heart sank as he wasn't sitting on his log, I jumped to the conclusion he was dead only to find he had been a little busy in his cage. He had obviously stumbled through the seed tray (not sure if he ate), and knocked over his water dish. He was VERY feisty during feeding, lots of flapping. He definitely is looking around, I don't think he's blind! I now simply have to put the pea at the front of his beak and he readily chomps it down, much better then the pea spitting I've been used to. More eyeball today as well.

I'll get rid of the shavings, I'll put down a towel. Since the heating pad is 
questionable, I think I'll go with a dome light or a space heater? I was using a
metal coil one prior, but I have a newer one that should be ok. The bathroom 
is most likely warmer then the rest of the house, he's in there with the door 
shut and it does feel warmer then the rest of the house.

Still not drinking water when offered. He seems quite opposed to the idea. It's concerning, I hope the peas are giving enough water to keep him going.


----------



## Skyeking

Thank you for the update,and thank you for caring so much for this bird.... sounds very positive. 

If he is eating thawed/warmed peas he is getting enough water, so you need not worry.

For heating, I would use whichever means is safest when you are gone. I don't know about the space heater, I myself would not leave one on when leaving the home. If you use a lamp, make sure there is an area for the bird to get out of the warmth of the lamp, should it get too hot.

A calcium supplement with D3 would be very beneficial since he is indoors, once he is off the antibiotics.


----------



## Otis7

What brand do you recommend? I have some parakeet grit leftover from my last pigeon. None until he gets off antibiotics?

I can hook up the dome light over half the cage. I do worry about over heating him, but I can put a thermometer in there to make sure it doesn't get too hot. I'll do that before I hook up an additional heat source to make sure the temp is right. He is poofed up most of the time, so I doubt he's too cold, though I guess that could be pain too.


----------



## Otis7

Thank you, and caring for him is no problem. I truely missed having a pigeon around, and its so rewarding watching him get better. I didnt think he would make it, thanks to you all for making it happen!


----------



## Otis7

I will say, I am still very curious as to what caused his injuries. While he was found by the road, it seems strange to me he would have no other injuries after being hit by a car. The way I found him all hunched in the field like that, it was quite strange. It would have taken quite a precise hit to only smack his head.


----------



## Otis7

Like your quote sky eking,
Here's ashes, my 9 year old apbt rescue and Lewis








And yes, I know she looks terrified. It's the bathroom (and the threat of a bath) not the bird.


----------



## Quazar

Assuming it was a hit, It really depends what hit him and what angle.
He could easilly have been caught a glancing blow which would be enough to stun him and give internal injuries but not actually any visible external ones.
If this was the case, he could have landed nearby, and staggered into the field, or even been swiped directly there.

The little guy I found was hit by the curved top part of the front of a large panel van, so he was in fact swatted away from the vehicle but bounced into a wall of the bridge he was flying under on the way back to his nest.

Nice pics, but beware, dog & cat saliva can be lethal to birds. Not necessarily a bite, but even getting some on his feathers he can ingest it while preening !!

BTW, the reason to hold off grit while on antibiotics is some ab's (especially the --cyclines I believe) bind themselves to the calcium and therefore makes them less or non effective.


----------



## Charis

Otis7 said:


> Thanks for all the advice!
> 
> I intended on splitting the baytril today but accidentally gave him the full dose, my plunger finger must have gotten a bit excited.
> 
> More improvement today. When I got home from work my heart sank as he wasn't sitting on his log, I jumped to the conclusion he was dead only to find he had been a little busy in his cage. He had obviously stumbled through the seed tray (not sure if he ate), and knocked over his water dish. He was VERY feisty during feeding, lots of flapping. He definitely is looking around, I don't think he's blind! I now simply have to put the pea at the front of his beak and he readily chomps it down, much better then the pea spitting I've been used to. More eyeball today as well.
> 
> I'll get rid of the shavings, I'll put down a towel. Since the heating pad is
> questionable, I think I'll go with a dome light or a space heater? I was using a
> metal coil one prior, but I have a newer one that should be ok. The bathroom
> is most likely warmer then the rest of the house, he's in there with the door
> shut and it does feel warmer then the rest of the house.
> 
> Still not drinking water when offered. He seems quite opposed to the idea. It's concerning, I hope the peas are giving enough water to keep him going.



Otis...giving baytril as a single dose is what Bayer, the manufacturer, recommends *for pigeons only *but not other avian patients and so you did just right. It's not so with all other medications though.Most veterinarians are not experienced with pigeons, in particular, and so they follow the recommendations given for parrots.
The heat needs to be direct and so a light over his cage would be best rather than a space heater. Place your hand over him with the light over and leave you hand there for 3-4 minutes. If you hand is comfortable the entire time then the position of the light is good. If your hand gets too warm, it would be too warm for the pigeon and so you can adjust it higher.


----------



## Jay3

Gee Jaye, Bayer themselves say that for pigeons it would be given every 24 hours. I mean, they made the drug. I would rather trust them, than the vets that don't really know much about pigeons.
http://www.animalhealth.bayer.com/5192.0.html
Why should fluoroquinolones be applicated once daily instead of twice daily as recommended before ?
As demonstrated by MEINEN et al. the killing activity of fluoroquinolones against E.coli and staphylococci is concentration-dependent (1). In this study the total dose and not the dose frequency was significant in determinig the therapeutic efficacy of enrofloxacin. This means the higher the plasma drug concentration (Cmax) the faster and more effective antimicrobial killing is achieved. It was also found that time above the MIC was not significant in determining the efficacy of this drug. Similar findings for other bacteria species relevant for small animal practice ( Pasteurella, Pseudomonas, Salmonella) have been made by WETZSTEIN et al.(2). 

From these findings it can be concluded that once daily application of the total dose of fluoroquinolones will have greater therapeutic effect compared to treatment regimens where the dose is divided into two applications. 

(1)	Meinen JB, McClure JT, Rosin E : Pharmacokinetics of enrofloxacin in clinically normal dogs and mice and drug pharmacodynamics in neutropenic mice with Escherichia coli and staphylococcal infections. Am. J. Vet. Res., 56, 1219 - 1224, 1995. 
(2)	Wetzstein HG, De Jong A : In vitro bactericidal activity and postantibiotic effect of fluoroquinolones used in veterinary medicine. Suppl Compend Contin Educ Pract Vet 18 (2), 22 - 29, 1996. 

**************************--**************************---_______-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Here's one of their dosage tables. Pigeons are on Page 6 *

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=clYBMd1upXpj75ERR6db_A&bvm=bv.41248874,d.dmQ


----------



## altgirl35

Okay, don't wanna disagree with either of you cause I love you both!
I've always dosed all birds from hummingbirds to owls and inbetween twice a day unless
for some reason the stress of getting dosed it too much for them and the infection isn't to severe
Sometimes when a bird has been in a cats mouth but I can't find any injuries 
I will dose once a day as a just in case I missed a pin prick by a tooth or claw
I guess whatever works for you is the best choice


----------



## Msfreebird

altgirl35 said:


> I dose birds at 15mg/kg twice a day
> Think your dose might be for mammals


The doses I use are from 'Pigeon Cotes Medical Formulary' and Gordon A Chalmers, DVM recommendations on Myrtle Lofts website. Which pretty much agree with the medical formulary. However, most of them say "5-10mg per pigeon divided twice a day". But, I have also heard that bayril works better given once a day. I didn't have anything in writing to back that up, so I didn't mention it. So with that information, whenever *I* use baytril, I give 8mg once a day.
Unfortunately, there is so much conflicting information out there on doses, etc. for pigeons, that we end up giving advise that worked for us 'individually'.
I always put a heating pad in the corner of the cage of a sick bird. A cage large enough that he can move off of it if he gets too warm. Even with a head injury, his head is not going to be directly on the heating pad, just his lower body. I agree that 'direct heat' on or over his head would not be good for swelling.
At any rate, I'm glad he's feeling better, and all this advise just goes to show how much we all care about this bird


----------



## altgirl35

I use the willow brook pharmacuedical index
And my vet


----------



## altgirl35

The dose your using ms is conservative, that's the dose I use for mammals
Don't have to go as high as 15mg/kg twice a day
But I have treated probably around 500 birds with that dose over the last few years with no ill effects


----------



## altgirl35

Oh you don't mean 8mg/kg do ya?
Ooops


----------



## Msfreebird

altgirl35 said:


> Oh you don't mean 8mg/kg do ya?
> Ooops


lol, no, not per kg. I give 8mg for an adult bird, and about half that for a youngster not bulked up yet. ......But on the other hand, Walter would probably need about 15mg!


----------



## altgirl35

Or a 100! <3 Walter


----------



## Jaye

Jay3 said:


> Gee Jaye, Bayer themselves say that for pigeons it would be given every 24 hours. I mean, they made the drug. I would rather trust them, than the vets that don't really know much about pigeons.
> http://www.animalhealth.bayer.com/5192.0.html
> Why should fluoroquinolones be applicated once daily instead of twice daily as recommended before ?
> As demonstrated by MEINEN et al. the killing activity of fluoroquinolones against E.coli and staphylococci is concentration-dependent (1). In this study the total dose and not the dose frequency was significant in determinig the therapeutic efficacy of enrofloxacin. This means the higher the plasma drug concentration (Cmax) the faster and more effective antimicrobial killing is achieved. ....24, 1995.
> (2)	Wetzstein HG, De Jong A : In vitro bactericidal activity and postantibiotic effect of fluoroquinolones used in veterinary medicine. Suppl Compend Contin Educ Pract Vet 18 (2), 22 - 29, 1996.
> 
> **************************--**************************---_______-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *Here's one of their dosage tables. Pigeons are on Page 6 *
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=clYBMd1upXpj75ERR6db_A&bvm=bv.41248874,d.dmQ


Inevitably, you were going to link and/or paste to something which would prove your point...however, you have pasted a very specific bit of info which does not necessarily refer to the malady at hand. 

While quite interesting, your excerpt clearly notes that it is in reference to only coli and staphyloccoci bacteria, particularly; then notes a few other common ones which were not part of this specific trial, but rather another. Yet we do not know whether these are the bacteria causing this bird (Otis') his/her problems. Coli, Staphylococci, Salmonella ? Interesting info, but perhaps moot....

We DO know, however .....that Cipro/Baytril is a wide-net antibiotic which is also effective against MANY other forms of bacteria not noted in your clip above. Many other forms....which is why it is so often prescribed.

So, although your clip is of value & clearly appropriate in a situation where the bacteria has been identified, it isn't necessarily germane to this particular situation _where we are only guessing at what caused the injury and what infection may be present.
_ Is a Pigeon who nearly got his head taken off by a huge impact suffering from coli or salmonella as a primary infection? 

As neither you, not I, nor Charis nor anyone else here on this board is a certified vet, all we can do as members is just pass along information and experience which we deem reliable. 

I must say....I find it specious (to say the least) that in order to support your assertions, you and others here would choose to toss in the red herring of discriminating between Certified Avian Vets, and Those Vets Who Know Specifically About Pigeons. Is this serious ?



Charis said:


> Most veterinarians are not experienced with pigeons, in particular, and so they follow the recommendations given for parrots.





Jay3 said:


> I would rather trust them, than the vets that don't really know much about pigeons.


.....rrrrrreallly ?

"I am not going to _accept_ the advice of a certified avian vet who has repeatedly prescribed for Pigeons ~ because even though that vet is a certified professional, he/she doesn't know _particularly about Pigeons_" (!?) 

That is what both you ad Charis are basically saying. I cannot help but just observe:

Simply because the instruction of these vets does not coincide with your views or methods....these vets must therefore not be experienced with Pigeons.

But what if these vets are hecka familiar with treating Pigeons ??? The information and instruction of 2x/day, as I previously noted, has been given to me by a number of certified avian vet professionals quite familiar w/ Pigeons and common Pigeon injuries, including impact injury. Talking dozens and dozens of patients (Pigeon variety) over the years. These vets have a combined professional experience of about a century; they are also from unrelated practices/offices.... 

So,_ if they are all saying the exact same thing_....
IMHO, that's pretty darn good advice to hold and pass along, and would not hesitate to pass it along again.

Any inquirer or person seeking help can then act as they wish with that info.

I apologize if posting contradictory information to your advice has offended you, despite the fact that I endeavored to do it respectfully and such info has come from quite reliable sources. 


Keep it up, Otis. Your Pigeon friend is a lucky bird.


----------



## Otis7

I can't chime in the debate, while I split the dose today I guess I will go back to my vets recommendations-though I wouldn't classify her as an avian specialist in the least. Though I'm still
Not sure which way is best, the bird is getting better so I may as well stick with what is working.

Lots of interesting developments today. I found him again wandering the cage, knocking his waterbowl over for the third time. When I picked him up he started doing that preening thing to my fingers, like my baby squeaker used to do. I tried to get him to eat seed on his own but he simply did the nibbling thing. As I fed him a few peas he would nibble on my hoodie.

I stood up with him on my arm and he managed to fly/fall to the floor. From there he spun in circles for a good while. He also bobs his head nearly constantly, maybe this helps him see? He will slowly bob his head until it nearly looked like it went 360 and then bob back the other direction. Not sure if these are symptoms of brain damage or a slow recovery.


----------



## Quazar

pigeons normally "bob" their head to get a perspective of depth and distance, but normally when moving, or briefly when in a stationary position.
The fact that hes doing it in 360 degrees would suggest eyesight may not be 100% so he is "mapping" out the lay of the land to the best of his ability so to speak. Knocking over of dishes would also suggest this, although they sometimes are too interested in where they are going to worry about things in their way.
The spinning on the floor is probably due to stress and possbly the pressure from swelling on nerves. Using excess energy (to try to fly) could easilly bring this on.
Did he actually try to fly down on his own, or did he lose balance while you were moving ?
I'm thinking probably the latter, which is also probably due to the swelling & pressure.
It would probably be better to keep him in a safe confined area untill swelling gets a lot more back to normal as any excess stress can also allow other bacterial ailments to develop.


----------



## Otis7

I was concerned that he was knocking over dishes because his only movement was circles. That all makes good sense. Never thought he'd attempt to fly, I do try hard to keep him quiet, but total isolation aside from forcefeedings and nasty tasting medicine also seems cruel. We hang out a bit, peacefully, here and there. 

I'm really hoping he's moving closer to eating on his own, that would be huge for him. He's still thin.

Moved him too a different room, sunny windows and space heater set to 70. It was VERY warm in there. I'm wondering if that had something to do with energy increase.


----------



## Jaye

The good news there, of course, is that he CAN compensate with the limited eyesight which seems to be coming back. I agree with Q, the head bobbing is an attempt to see as best he can. That leaves a lotta hope that things will continue to improve.

The 70 degrees, that's pretty good. My vets (oops ! dare I utter....) specifically mention 75 degrees as the minimum, but if 70 is where you can get it, it's certainly better than 65 or even 68.


----------



## Otis7

Most definitely, when I first saw his eyes, despite my lack of pigeon knowledge, I never thought he would see. He has become more responsive. I am still concerned about brain damage. I really hope he learns to eat again soon. I don't mind and enjoy the feedings, but I can't do it forever. Permanent damage is definitely a worry.

Any thoughts on the finger nibbling/preening? Is this a reflex from hunger, affection?


----------



## Otis7

And he is preening himself again, nearly every day I get home I have to pick down off his eyes. I would count personal hygiene as a good sign


----------



## Jaye

The long-term neurological effects we can only guess at. 

But all of the activity you report (preening, finger nibbling, increased responsiveness, head-bobbing) is only good news as of now. Preening can show both a level of relaxation, or also is a way Pigeons and other avians calm and reassure themselves.

Go with it


----------



## altgirl35

Metacam come yet?


----------



## Otis7

Just reminded me to check the mail, it's here. What is the dosage?


----------



## Otis7

Also, must walked into the bathroom to find him rapidly spinning in circles. Stopped to feed him, it's now to the point where he grabs my finger in his beak and shakes it until I pop in a pea. Damn nearly harder to feed him!


----------



## altgirl35

Ill brb with the dosage, I'm concerned about the circling 
Hoping its not the head trauma that is making him do that
Is he cooing or anything when he is circling?
Can you do a video of it?


----------



## altgirl35

Okay metacam going to do max for 3 days
Want you to give him .08 2xday for 3 days
Then go to .02 2xday for another 3 days
We will see where he is at then


----------



## Otis7

I did try to take a video of the circling, but of course he stopped as soon as I pulled out the camera. I do have a video of the head bobbing, after rewatching, I noticed he took four steps forward before bobbing again, that leads me to believe is he isn't completely locked in circles. I will put that video up and work on getting one of what I have been seeing.


----------



## Otis7

He is not cooing, I have only heard him make noise a few times and that was in the first few days of handling, it was simply an adamant 'grr'


----------



## Jay3

Jay3 said:


> Gee Jaye, Bayer themselves say that for pigeons it would be given every 24 hours. I mean, they made the drug. I would rather trust them, than the vets that don't really know much about pigeons.
> http://www.animalhealth.bayer.com/5192.0.html
> Why should fluoroquinolones be applicated once daily instead of twice daily as recommended before ?
> As demonstrated by MEINEN et al. the killing activity of fluoroquinolones against E.coli and staphylococci is concentration-dependent (1). In this study the total dose and not the dose frequency was significant in determinig the therapeutic efficacy of enrofloxacin. This means the higher the plasma drug concentration (Cmax) the faster and more effective antimicrobial killing is achieved. It was also found that time above the MIC was not significant in determining the efficacy of this drug. Similar findings for other bacteria species relevant for small animal practice ( Pasteurella, Pseudomonas, Salmonella) have been made by WETZSTEIN et al.(2).
> 
> From these findings it can be concluded that once daily application of the total dose of fluoroquinolones will have greater therapeutic effect compared to treatment regimens where the dose is divided into two applications.
> 
> (1)	Meinen JB, McClure JT, Rosin E : Pharmacokinetics of enrofloxacin in clinically normal dogs and mice and drug pharmacodynamics in neutropenic mice with Escherichia coli and staphylococcal infections. Am. J. Vet. Res., 56, 1219 - 1224, 1995.
> (2)	Wetzstein HG, De Jong A : In vitro bactericidal activity and postantibiotic effect of fluoroquinolones used in veterinary medicine. Suppl Compend Contin Educ Pract Vet 18 (2), 22 - 29, 1996.
> 
> **************************--**************************---_______-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *Here's one of their dosage tables. Pigeons are on Page 6 *
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=clYBMd1upXpj75ERR6db_A&bvm=bv.41248874,d.dmQ




Jaye, did you look at page 6 of the link? They are not talking about specific bacteria here.
These instructions are from BAYER.


----------



## Dima

Charis said:


> .*Most veterinarians are not experienced with pigeons, in particular, and so they follow the recommendations given for parrots.
> /QUOTE]
> *
> I have to agree with Charis on this one. Most of vets i went, in CANADA, do not have experience with pigeons. (last time i went to the vet for ex. he was thrilled to see for the first time the pox lesions)
> 
> Also the fact that in Canada you cannot bring a pigeon to any Avian Vet, but only to a certified Vet on in Wild birds, makes her point true.


----------



## altgirl35

How's he doin today? Metacam reducing swelling at all?


----------



## Jaye

I'm not taking any further bait regarding the thread digression occurring here, first off. My info comes from professionals who know far more than any particular member here and never have I been steered wrong by them yet.
Besides the fact, it ain't helping Otis or his feathered pal any, and some people just cannot get over being disagreed with, apparently....


Otis7 said:


> I did try to take a video of the circling, but of course he stopped as soon as I pulled out the camera. I do have a video of the head bobbing, after rewatching, I noticed he took four steps forward before bobbing again, that leads me to believe is he isn't completely locked in circles. I will put that video up and work on getting one of what I have been seeing.


Can you figure out when he is doing his circle walk ? As in, does it seem to happen when he is alone, or during the day, or night, or when you walk in, or walk out ?

Trying to figure if it is a (somewhat) intended 'reaction' to something or not.

Glad you got the Metacam.....


----------



## Otis7

Unfortunately during the week I can't observe him too much, he's most active during the day when in not home. Weekends are my chance to evaluate and catch up.

The metacam definitely seems to be helping, I think the swelling has gone down and I do see more of his eye. I've only witnessed a few spinning sessions recently, they see to occur after I handle him and put him back in his cage, or on the ground, that's when he bobs the most too. Still busting around the cage and making a mess, very busy guy. Might even be getting a little bored, though he still spends a good part of the day poofed up and head hunched.

Can't tell if he's eating on his own, as he spills the seed tray everywhere daily. His poops are a slightly greyish color now as opposed to the pea green they were before. Still no water intake from me, again wouldn't know if he was drinking on his own.
His appetite is huge though, at least 40 peas a feeding. He nibbles my fingers insesently for peas but will stop as soon as I put some peas or seed under his beak. He even nibbles the medicine syringes!


----------



## altgirl35

Sounds like an improvement
Before you feed him try to find his crop if you run you finger down the center of his chest
You will hit bone that is a V , then when your done feeding peas
Do the same, the area on top of that V will be puffed up with all the peas
Should feel kinda like a bumpy marshmallow 
Once you get to know the crop , you will be able to tell if he is eating
When you come home from work
Can actually feel the seed in there
Mbe some one has a good pic of the crop location


----------



## altgirl35

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_(anatomy)


----------



## altgirl35

Btw, I think it's so cute how he is acting babyish for food
He knows your helping him and he appreciates it


----------



## Otis7

I'm worried about Lewis. I think he is rapidly loosing weight. I'm doing 50 peas in the morning and 50 at night. I've started doing in-between feedings of 20 peas, I did 40 when if first got home today. He's thin as a rail and much lighter. His energy has rapidly increased, but he is still not eating or drinking on his own.

Should I start force feeding him seed? Is there anything high caloric I could give him? I could split seed and peas so he still gets water intake. I really don't want to loose this guy now, but it appears he is wasting away on me. I hope the weight loss is due to his first few days when he wasnt getting enough feed, but now I truly feel like he's getting quite a bit, and still loosing. Please help.


----------



## Msfreebird

Otis7 said:


> I'm worried about Lewis. I think he is rapidly loosing weight. I'm doing 50 peas in the morning and 50 at night. I've started doing in-between feedings of 20 peas, I did 40 when if first got home today. He's thin as a rail and much lighter. His energy has rapidly increased, but he is still not eating or drinking on his own.
> 
> Should I start force feeding him seed? Is there anything high caloric I could give him? I could split seed and peas so he still gets water intake. I really don't want to loose this guy now, but it appears he is wasting away on me. I hope the weight loss is due to his first few days when he wasnt getting enough feed, but now I truly feel like he's getting quite a bit, and still loosing. Please help.


Not knowing where he's been or exactly how old he is, he could have worms which will take all his nutrition. If it were me, and I know others will disagree with this, I would give him a dose of a GENTLE wormer. Pyrantal is what I use for birds that are 'light'. It is safe and effective for the most common worms - roundworms.
Do you know how to tube feed directly into the crop?


----------



## Otis7

I've watched a video before but I don't have the equipment nor someone to show me how.

Where could I find pyrantal? Vet only? His weight was good when I found him. I have wazine. 

I was thinking about trying a mash, maybe if could get him to nuzzle some he may start to eat it? I have chick start, non medicated. I fed that to my baby squeaker before.


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## Msfreebird

Most vets have pyrantal. The liquid form is readily used for puppies and kittens. That is what I use.
If you've never tube fed, I would not suggest trying it. They can easily aspirate if your not careful.


----------



## Otis7

Will see if I can get some.

Also, were pretty sure he is blind or has severe vision loss.


----------



## Msfreebird

Otis7 said:


> Will see if I can get some.
> 
> Also, were pretty sure he is blind or has severe vision loss.


Once all the swelling is gone, that might improve.


----------



## altgirl35

Mbe you could pick up some parrot pellets and add some of them to the pea popping 
I think pigeons are easy to tube feed, mbe the vet could show you how


----------



## altgirl35

Give the pellets a quick dip in water before popping


----------



## altgirl35

Or some shelled unsalted sunflower seed and peanuts


----------



## Jay3

Jaye said:


> I'm not taking any further bait regarding the thread digression occurring here, first off. My info comes from professionals who know far more than any particular member here and never have I been steered wrong by them yet.
> Besides the fact, it ain't helping Otis or his feathered pal any,* and some people just cannot get over being disagreed with, apparently..*..


Jaye, I only asked you if you read page 6 of that link. That's all I said. It seems to be _you_ who can not get over being disagreed with.


----------



## Otis7

Your argument stopped helping Lewis and I a long time ago, please start a new thread if you need to continue it. I am terribly worried about this little bird after how far he's come. I'm inexperienced with this, and if I loose him now it would be heart wrecking.


----------



## Charis

Otis...do you have a scale to weigh the pigeon? If so, I can tell you how many calories he needs.
Personally, I wouldn't worm him just yet. 
You can defrost frozen corn and add that to your feeding routine. Probably, the pigeon should be getting 150-175 pieces a day. You can also try puppy chow, soaked in warm water so it's soft.


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## Charis

It looks more to me like the pigeon has this....

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/information-haemophilus.php


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## Otis7

That looks shockingly smiler, but the swelling has gone down now. I'm waiting for a current video to process


----------



## Msfreebird

Charis said:


> It looks more to me like the pigeon has this....
> 
> http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/information-haemophilus.php


I really don't think this is what he has, But if it IS, he's on the wrong medication. Best treatment for that is Tylosin or doxycycline (or tetracycline).
I think there are 3 possible cases here......1-Not getting enough calories, 2-worms, or 3-Misdiagnosed and on the wrong medication.
Everyone is going on the assumption that this is blunt force trauma. I think there's more to it and if he's declining, I would be a little more aggressive with treating.


----------



## Dima

Charis said:


> It looks more to me like the pigeon has this....
> 
> http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/information-haemophilus.php


You got it right, Charis.


----------



## altgirl35

So sorry he isn't gaining weight
and feeling better, wish I was closer to you so I could help hands on
I know sometimes bed bath and beyond sell gram scales for weighing food
Can also find them online for about 30 bucks


----------



## altgirl35

Mbe the Baytril is just controlling that disease but not curing it
I have doxy too if you want to change it
Might be faster to print out that page and take to the vet and get doxy from her


----------



## Otis7

I will say, from the brief bit I read there has been no discharge, but not ruling out that picture is shockingly similar. 
I will try to get a scale, im on the eastern shore of bumf#ck so a good retailer or department store is far away.
The video of him is still processing, hopefully that will come up soon. Everyday his energy increases, and weight decreases.


----------



## Charis

I did find a scale on Amazon for under $20. If you order today, you may have it on Monday. They are very fast. Also, Walmart, Target should have them.


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## Otis7

I'll order


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## Otis7

I'm finding them as low as 6 dollars, will those work?


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## altgirl35

Just make sure it's not a jewelry scale
Will be to small
Make sure platform is like 4-6 inches


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## Charis

Good point, Jodi.

Here's a link to some scales, on Amazon, that measure in gram weight and ounces.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...ield-keywords=kitchen scales grams and ounces


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## Otis7

I think I'm going to loose this guy. Aside from getting a weight, what should i do? Go with the doxy? Deworming? Is there any chance these things can do more harm then good? I'm desperate, he's so friendly, come so far, but he's simply skin and bones right now. I wish I had some experienced help in the area.


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## whitetail

Hi Otis,

I feel for you and your little guy

I have lost track a bit but what about finding an avian vet even if you have to drive far, you have come so far and no one still knows what he's got and meanwhile he's deteriorating. Maybe we could all pitch in to help you out with the cost, I would for sure. What does everybody else think?
As you say, you really need some experienced help.


----------



## Otis7

I think your right. The boyfriend would be pissed and the family and friends would think I'm crazy, but with how far he's come loosing him would be terrible. I used to look forward to feeding him now it makes my stomach flip, despite my efforts he just looks worse. Despite this, if I call his name he leaps off her perch and paces his cage, eagerly jumps on my hand.

I have a tax return coming, I think I can spend some money on him with it. Any help researching a qualified Maryland avian vet would be appreciated. I think I can cover costs. Hoping he makes it until I get a chance to go.


----------



## Otis7

Here are two
http://www.petdr.com/page3.htm#about

http://www.marylandexotics.com/


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## Jay3

If you go to an avian vet, be sure first that they will see pigeons, as many won't. Tell them it is your pet pigeon. Some will see a "pet pigeon", but not a feral one.


----------



## Otis7

I'll call them in the morning. Why won't they see ferals? Do I have to make up a story about him?


----------



## Jay3

Here are a couple that will see pigeons, but I would tell them that it's your pet pigeon.


Second Chance Wildlife Care Center
7101 Barcellona Avenue
Gaithersburg, Md. 20879
301-926-9453

Eastern Shore Sanctuary
13981 Reading Ferry Road
Princess Anne, MD 21853
410-651-4934


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## Jay3

You just have to say he has been your pet for a while. Many avian vets just won't see pigeons, but often will if you tell them it is your pet, and not a wild bird. Some won't or can't see any wild birds is what they will often tell you.


----------



## Otis7

Will do. Another question, when I first brought him home the bumps on top of his beak were a stark white, they are now a light brown. Does this mean anything?


----------



## Otis7

The "cere"


----------



## Jay3

In a healthy pigeon, the cere will be white. If it is not, that can be a sign of sickness.


----------



## whitetail

Hi Otis,

I was just looking through the internet to see what I could find about vets in Maryland and I found the Maryland Racing Pigeons Club, they would know vets that see pigeons. There's a list of 6 clubs, the city and the phone number. Give them a ring, I'm sure they'd be able to help you.

Maybe you could also try the American Racing Pigeon Union or the International Federation of American Homing Pigeons.

If Jay's vets don't work maybe try this option? You really need a vet that knows pigeons and definitely say that he's your pet. You will have to tell a story.


----------



## altgirl35

Oh I hope you can find one to help
What about a bird rehabber?


----------



## Jaye

Keep the faith Otis. if your buddy still has the energy and alertness to jump up and become active when he knows you are around, he is not too far gone yet.

Sometimes Pigeons can become so starved that they do not gain weight back despite being fed a hella lot.

Or it could be worms. Or it could be a different disease as Charis has noted.

In any case, nothing you have done so far (meds and supportive care) has harmed him any, all certainly has helped.

I do agree that at this point, a bird vet is really required. IMHO, I still think he is a domestic-raised and not a Feral, so no vet should give you much of an argument of you say he is your companion bird. He needs a blood test, a fecal test, and probably some tube feeding.

Hopefully it's just a horrible case of worms or he requires more robust and high-caloric sustenance. If it is another malady which is ultimately diagnosed, birds tend to react very quickly to the right antibiotic.

....be sure to keep the room very, very warm now. With so little meat on the bones he is highly prone to catching cold/pneumonia.


----------



## Msfreebird

Jaye said:


> Keep the faith Otis. if your buddy still has the energy and alertness to jump up and become active when he knows you are around, he is not too far gone yet.
> 
> Sometimes Pigeons can become so starved that they do not gain weight back despite being fed a hella lot.
> 
> Or it could be worms. Or it could be a different disease as Charis has noted.
> 
> In any case, nothing you have done so far (meds and supportive care) has harmed him any, all certainly has helped.
> 
> I do agree that at this point, a bird vet is really required. IMHO, I still think he is a domestic-raised and not a Feral, so no vet should give you much of an argument of you say he is your companion bird. He needs a blood test, a fecal test, and probably some tube feeding.
> 
> Hopefully it's just a horrible case of worms or he requires more robust and high-caloric sustenance. If it is another malady which is ultimately diagnosed, birds tend to react very quickly to the right antibiotic.
> 
> ....be sure to keep the room very, very warm now. With so little meat on the bones he is highly prone to catching cold/pneumonia.


I agree! We are all pulling for him. Hope you can find a good avian vet to see him today. Bring a fresh fecal sample with you, and please let us know what happens.


----------



## Otis7

Here's the video I meant to post a few days ago



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOwgsi--eRE&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## Msfreebird

What I noticed is that his poop looked pretty good, He has a droopy wing, his back is a little 'hunched' (which usually means intestinal upset), seemed a little unsteady (weak). His head looked better.
What is in the food dish? 
His water dish should be smaller and deeper, with at least 3" of water in it. They dip their beak into the water and use it like a straw, so it needs to be a little deeper than the tupperware dish its in.


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## altgirl35

He looks much better, don't think you have to worry about that circling
Usually head trauma guys that circle cannot walk a straight line
He seems unsteady not dizzy
I noticed the droopy wing too
Mbe you could try a shaker feeder
I use an old perscription bottle, fill it with seed and a few pieces of gravel 
Cover top with something stretchy like vet wrap and make it tight with a rubber band
Cut a small slit in it
Know how he nudges your fingers for food? Try to get his beak into that slit
Hopefully he will start swallowing the seeds
And I agree deeper dish of water I would do a deeper dish of seed too


----------



## altgirl35

I use heavier glass dishes too, not so easy to knock over


----------



## altgirl35

Oh yeah, and tilt shaker up so seeds are at the end his beak is in
I wiggle it a little like parents wiggle when they feed chicks


----------



## mudsow

Weight gain seems slow when they are Sooooo skinny. We were tube feeding my Homey for at least a month before we saw significant gain. Their bodies are so depleted they use up what you feed them pretty fast. They don't get skinny overnight, and they don't gain it back overnight either. I know we get anxious to see results but it takes time for them to heal. As long as he still has that energy, I'd say he still has a chance to pull through this.
Mudsow


----------



## Jaye

If you'd say that is a recent vid, done in last day or so and he/she is still generally acting like that, I would not be overly alarmed that your buddy is in immediate danger of dying. The activity level is good. 
Not saying to just hang, you should still get to a vet and figure out how you can get the weight up (I have a few suggestions but let's wait and see a diagnosis, because if it's worms then no amount of food will get the weight back up until the worms are treated and eradicated).

While the swelling is much better and the eyes even look half-decent at first glance....I would agree that he/she seems to be pretty blind, if not totally. Hard to tell...sometimes when he moves it seems he has a bit of sight, other times not. If I am not mistaken this is day #13 or 14 in your care (?) You have done an incredible job thus far !

Keep us posted.


----------



## Otis7

What concerns me the most is that he has lost weight in my care, he seemed a pretty healthy weight at first, not great, but not as thin as he was. The shaker idea sounds great and I will definitely try it! Again thanks for everything.

I found another wing wound, this was had a scab that had come off and it's raw now. Not big or bad looking. Neosporin?


----------



## Otis7

new wound

Old wound


----------



## altgirl35

Is that the wing that's drooping?
Is he still on the Baytril and metacam?


----------



## Otis7

He's off both, last dose of metacam yesterday and last dose of baytril this morning. 

I couldn't see the wing droop in the video, the old wound is on the left and the the new on the right when he's facing away from you. 

No luck on the vet search yet. E.s sanctuary's number was no longer in service, but I send them an email. the other rehab place didn't know much but forwarded me to Baltimore pigeon club. Talked to a very cute old man who said he once new of a vet in cockeysville who did quarantine on imported pigeons. Left a message for md exotics and haven't called the ownings mills vet yet. Going to try the national pigeon association next I think.


----------



## Otis7

Whew, calling pigeon clubs was very awkward, I don't think these people know their numbers are online!

I ended up making an appointment at the owings mills vet on Wednesday, now I just need to get off work! They do have "bird hospital" in their title so it must be better then what we had before. They also see pigeons, so let's hope for the best.


----------



## Otis7

His energy level is still at that level, at least when I'm around.

I will say, to be a sap, this bird has completely stolen my heart. Didn't think I could fall for a pigeon so fast after I lost my silo, but he's won me over! When I walk into the bathroom I say "Lewis," well...more like "looooowys," and he immediately runs to the side of the cage. Today, for the first time, he leaped onto my hand with no assist or prompt. He then ran up my arm and trotted circles around my neck nibbling. This guy is definitely friendly, he's got my love for sure. Thin as a rail, worries me constantly, but heart for miles.


----------



## altgirl35

Awww Lewis is a good boy! I'm glad you love him 
You will get him thru this and have a best buddy piji
You can dose metacam once a day if he still has swelling


----------



## Otis7

The swelling looks pretty good, I may do a few more doses to be safe, but all and all he has a skinny little head now-just still has a bit more eye showing then I'd like to see.


----------



## Otis7

What purpose does the gravel serve in the food shaker?


----------



## altgirl35

Because pigeons need to eat grit 
It's stored in their gizzard and help crush the seeds up that are not shelled


----------



## Otis7

I have chicken grit, but it's big. I also have tiny little blue parakeet grit bits, which would be better?


----------



## altgirl35

I would go for the small ones, just a pinch or two


----------



## Jaye

IMHO, the wing injuries further suggest he was struck by something. That is a typical location for a wing injury when a bird is hit by a vehicle.

OK, since we are waiting until Wednesday, I will proceed with making my nutritional suggestion. For rapid weight gain, you can get this stuff called Nutristat online. It is a high-caloric paste used usually for mammals, but I have had my Avian vets instruct me to use it for birds (including Pigeons), and it seems to work really well.

If he does peas, I usually just put a glazing of paste on a pea and then feed it. Do that with maybe 7 or 8 peas then you can feed the rest 'naked'. In my experience after 2-3 days or so you can easily see it having a positive effect as far as weight-gain.

(BTW...the blue grit is OK in a pinch; you can actually mix like 2/3-1/3 chicken grit-blue grit if you want...this way at least one will likely appeal to him).


----------



## rascal66

I wish you and your Pigeon the best. He's made it a long way and I'm sure he won't let you down either! I really wish I could give advice but I'm new to Pigeons and Doves. I own Diamond Doves.

Please take care! I will be following this post.


----------



## Otis7

Thanks rascal!

Is it possible that he had swelling in his chest as well, which the metacam brought down? Around the same time his head started getting thinner was about the time I started freaking out about his weight.


----------



## Msfreebird

Otis7 said:


> His energy level is still at that level, at least when I'm around.
> 
> I will say, to be a sap, this bird has completely stolen my heart. Didn't think I could fall for a pigeon so fast after I lost my silo, but he's won me over! When I walk into the bathroom I say "Lewis," well...more like "looooowys," and he immediately runs to the side of the cage. Today, for the first time, he leaped onto my hand with no assist or prompt. He then ran up my arm and trotted circles around my neck nibbling. This guy is definitely friendly, he's got my love for sure. Thin as a rail, worries me constantly, but heart for miles.


We're ALL saps! 
I agree that with the wing injuries, it is most likely a collision with something. The problem with that, is that in a weakened state (injury, swelling, lack of food and water before you found him), other things can take over. If it is worm infestation, all the nutrition you are giving is going to the worms.
Always, whenever I treat a bird for anything, I give it a half dose of pyrantel to determine if it has worms. I've given it to many emaciated/fluffed up birds, they poop out a clump of worms, then their hopping around, eating and drinking the next day like nothing ever happened! But, I would only use pyrantel on a weakened bird, NEVER anything else (ivermectin, moxidectin, etc)....they are too harsh for a weak bird.
(For your reference if you do decide to worm him- I use liquid Pyrantel Pamoate (strength is 50mg per ml). Full dose for an adult bird is .13 ml (6.25mg). I give .08 ml (about 4mg) to a weakened bird. That is not much! I use a 1ml tuberculin syringe to give it orally. You can't use a regular 3ml syringe because it is such a small amount, it stays in the hub of the syringe) 
This information is for your reference if you (or anyone else) should decide he needs to be wormed. Pyrantel is the safest wormer you could use. (most any veterinarian has this, it is readily used on puppies and kittens)


----------



## altgirl35

Swelling could have been a ruptured air sack they can go down
on their own
Or mbe his full crop?
Could have had a lot of fluid build up in his swollen areas
As long as swollen areas are gone or going away you should feel good
Get that scale, I usually weigh birds every other day
It's difficult to tell subtle gains and losses when your handling them everyday
I always give a quick feel of the keel bone too
A bird in good weight will have muscle sloping from their side to the edge of the keel bone
If keel bone is like the side of a knife and you can actually pinch it he's thin
Mbe you could send her some pyrantel waynette
I don't have any of that, I have been using worm out gel


----------



## Msfreebird

altgirl35 said:


> Swelling could have been a ruptured air sack they can go down
> on their own
> Or mbe his full crop?
> Could have had a lot of fluid build up in his swollen areas
> As long as swollen areas are gone or going away you should feel good
> Get that scale, I usually weigh birds every other day
> It's difficult to tell subtle gains and losses when your handling them everyday
> I always give a quick feel of the keel bone too
> A bird in good weight will have muscle sloping from their side to the edge of the keel bone
> If keel bone is like the side of a knife and you can actually pinch it he's thin
> Mbe you could send her some pyrantel waynette
> I don't have any of that, I have been using worm out gel


Yes, I can send some with a syringe if she wants. Need mailing address.


----------



## Otis7

We will not be going to the vet tomorrow unfortunately, I have to work. Good news is the other vet can see me on Saturday, she seems like a pretty legit exotics vet and she does see feral pigeons. (not that Lewis is feral anymore, two weeks here and blind as a bat he's a pet through and through). I left her a long message and she responded very personally, I got good vibes at least.

I may still try to make a later appointment tomorrow but I'm not sure it's going to happen. Don't like bringing him to work with me, there aren't many warm places to put him. (my boss hates them, they poop on his tractors, not that he'd do anything to him but I don't push my love too much).

If the pyrental were sent would it get here before Saturday? I don't want to push my luck with you guys, you've been wonderful! 

I may be able to borrow a gram scale for the evening at least. I'm a dumbass, I work at a winery and we have one for additives. Just remembered today.


----------



## Otis7

I can feel all of his keel bone, he is very, very thin. I can completely pinch it. Don't think he has an ounce of fat.


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## Otis7

Hello old amazon gift card! Scale and nautical ordered


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## altgirl35

Very nice
May as well hold off on the pyrantel
Make sure vet does a fecal, so if he does have a parasite she give the right one
Most wormers only cover certain ones
If he has coccidia ill send you some baycox


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## Otis7

Nautical was supposed to say nutri-cal

Thank you altgirl, I will definetely let you. So for sure a fecal, blood test, anything else I should push?


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## Otis7

I will definitely let you know


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## altgirl35

Can't think of anything, just check those eyes, see if he can see or if they are still infected 
Have you tried to see if pupils react to light?
Check crop, ask if she can show you how to tube feed
Would be good if you could get exact handfeeding formula into him 
Has everything he needs


----------



## Jaye

It's OK, even when their keelbone is protruding like that they can still get weight back on. The nutrical will help. The trick is to keep him nourished enough until Saturday. In the absence of any wormer until it arrives, I guess just keep feeding a lot.


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## Msfreebird

Let me know if you want me to mail any pyrantel. Don't know if you would get it by Saturday. If not, one of the vets should have some.


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## pirab buk

Have you brought him to the vet yet? The longer you wait the less chance he has for recovery.


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## altgirl35

She did, we just don't have a lot of confidence in first vet


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## Otis7

I specifically ordered the stuff on amazon that said it would come today, but sadly it didn't. I did feel like his weight was maybe just an teensy bit better this morning, so hard to tell. He is starting to take peas from my fingers, almost fading out popping open his beak. I'm trying to train him to nibble less and be a bit more preside with his beak, and hopefully he will fade into eating naturally. I only work on this after a full feeding if course, priority now is a full healthy belly.


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## altgirl35

Did you try the deeper dishes for him?


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## Otis7

He has deeper dishes, I have a two inch dog bowl full of seed and a three inch ceramic dish for water. He tramples through them daily, always poop in the water dish (he isn't bathing) and seed on his feet. He does not seem to use them for anything but walking through and over. I'm very careful to put everything back in the exact same place when I feed. If Lewis isn't completely blind, his vision is nearly gone. If I call his name he looks for me insesently, but it isn't until my hand is on him that he realizes I am there. He doesnt full-speed bump into things, but he does bump before changing direction.

I will see a vet soon, gotta work to take care of wild animals. I would have loved to see a vet today, but it just didnt work out. I was hoping for rain and it was a beautiful day. I work outside, and if it's nice we have to work. Saturday I'm off, and hopefully going to see a great avian vet. I'm especially hoping for training on tube feeding and advice working with a blind bird.


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## Otis7

When i clean the dishes*


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## Otis7

This is the set up









He sleeps on the log every night


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## Jaye

It isn't unusual for a Pigeon to just walk over or thru household sorta objects which you and I would think of as 'obstacles' or inappropriate or unusual for an animal to walk thru.

The Pigeons in my loft poop in the water dish constantly...sometimes I see one of 'em just standing in it...not bathing, just standing in the water (!?)

If I may ask.....

Does he ever _run right into something_, though ? Just crash into it while walking/hopping? Like a wall...or the sides of his enclosure, or some vertical sort of obstacle surface like a cabinet or chair leg or anything like that ? Or your chest or face ?


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## altgirl35

Right! Piji's always trample everything especially if they are in a smaller cage
Always poop in the water!


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## pirab buk

Keep us updated I am curious to see what the vet says.


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## Otis7

He doesn't really full out run into anything, but he does tap all obstacles. I think there may have some vision, but it must be blurry as hell. He struggles finding me even when I'm making noise.

He started talking to me today, when I call his name and he can't find me he starts grunting. He sounds like a pigeon toy that needs it'd batteries replaced


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> He doesn't really full out run into anything, but he does tap all obstacles. I think there may have some vision, but it must be blurry as hell. He struggles finding me even when I'm making noise.
> 
> He started talking to me today, when I call his name and he can't find me he starts grunting. He sounds like a pigeon toy that needs it'd batteries replaced


Oh, he is getting used with you


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## Otis7

He's my boy for sure! Love this guy, excited for our big road trip to the vet! Healing is on it's way!


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## altgirl35

Have you tried to see if his pupils respond to light?


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## whitetail

Wishing you and Lewis all the best at the veterinary


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## Msfreebird

I'm anxiously waiting to see what the vet says too! Grunting? I bet he's a she  Just my thought.
I have some pyrantel packaged up if you want it....just let me know.
Even if he/she does have limited eye sight, handicapped pigeons do very well and their even more loveable as pets


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## Otis7

When I first found him he was so poofed up I just assumed male, but now that he's slimmed down he does look fairly effement. Oh well! Hopefully he'll be so healthy someday an egg will show up and I'll know for sure.

I haven't done the light thing yet, maybe I'll try that this morning.

If for some reason we don't get any at the vet, which I doubt, I'll definitely take you up on that!


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## Otis7

Lewis had a long day today. He definitely seemed to get a bit car sick on the hour and a half drive.

The vet visit was good, not great, but good. There are no instant miracle cures for this bird. The vet was great with him, instantly reacted to his friendliness, talked to him sweetly and acknowledged my and my boyfriends concern for him. Most of the visit was spent on feeding concerns. He weighs 192g (my scale came in today, after we got home, so I can keep track of weight now and compensate for any inaccuracies). She highly recommended Harrison feeds, does anyone have experience with these? 
The vet works at another hospital primarily, but works at the vet I went to on saturday. She was a bit disorganized by the facility and we were lacking certain tools, such as proper bird recovery formula. She mashed a Harrison feed and showed me out to force feed that without hitting the windpipe. She was very concerned with upping the nutrition passed peas, and while she tried 
to get him to eat she had as little success as I did. She also said birds were harder to test for vision then mammals, I believe she said birds vision
may still react slightly to light despite blindness, but don't quote me. Pretty 
much, she agreed his vision was fairly bunk. 
We treated for worms, coccidiosis and giardia. I don't have much money to spend, and she said there was no risk in treating as opposed to running the tests. It appeared cheaper to just treat instead. she was not concerned with his wing injuries and said there was no need to restart antibiotics for him. She tube fed him, but did not teach me how. She said if problems consisted with eating they could insert a tube that would still allow him to attempt to eat on his own while receiving proper nutrients directly. She also said if I didn't have luck teaching him on his own, I could come back in to run tests on brain function. She did notice neurological signs, after force feed g his head was ticking. She talked about steroids, which she acknowledged could have risks, or an anti vertigo.


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## Otis7

So what it comes down to, Lewis may have brain damage, he's thin, he needs proper nutrition and is most likely blind. My main goal now is meeting his nutritional needs while teaching him to eat and drink on his own. I think there is still a long road ahead for this little guy.


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## Mary Lynn

Try this product. Used it on my pet pigeon and it works well!I had to syringe the formula in carefully.


http://www.birdproduct.com/products/thrive-6oz/


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## Otis7

She also proposed the idea he may be a juvenile, which is why he resorts so much to nibbling and attempts to get me to feed him. Or, simply a brain damage bird who resorts to squeaker behavior


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## altgirl35

Do some you tube searches for hand feeding pigeons 
Mbe you will find one that works for you


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## Jaye

Good job, Otis. The vet sounded great, too...just what the doctor ordered (no pun intended...OK, yes it was).

192 is hella thin. Did you ever get the NutriStat ? As Altgirl says, there are many handfeeding methods. Pea and Corn popping, for example.

IMHO, if you can find some Kaytee Baby Bird formula, you can mix that into a lukewarm slurry, mix in a glob of Nutristat, and feed with a plastic syringe by laying the formula on the tip of the tongue/mouth, then closing the beak; they will swallow on their own (do not squirt it in the mouth). 
I would do about 25cc's of this a day divided into 2 feedings then do 2 feedings of peas as well. This usually worked quite fine for weight gain; and it had all the hydration a bird would ever need, too.

I agree, a layman should not be quick-taught how to tubefeed a bird....way too many things can go wrong.

Good that he got the wormer/cocci/gardia treatment (although my recollection is for giardia it needs to be about a week's worth of daily meds ?). That should cover a lot of bases right there.

Regarding the neurological issues...take things step by step. Gaining weight and strength will very likely result in an increase in ability and strength. From there, you can ascertain his/her quality of life and general happiness with whatever the new condition may end up 'baselining' at. But that is a topic for later on, not now.

I am glad you found a decent vet.


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## Dima

if you decide to use syringe to feed him, i always criss cross it from pigeons' left side of the beak to the right side. If you get it wrong it won't go in so easy, if you got it in the right pipe syringe/tube will go easy in, that's how you know you got it well.

For the pigeon to learn to eat on its own, just put him in a big dish of seeds, if he has vision problems. I hope though the vet it's wrong.


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## Msfreebird

This is a long shot, but its worth a try if he's nuzzling your fingers for food. I hand raise by babies using a baby bottle, its the closest method to being naturally fed by its mother. No forcing food into his mouth, he does all the work. You just have to get his beak into the nipple, and if he's nuzzling, he just might catch on to this.
This is what I do.......Feeding Kaytee exact Hand feeding formula with small seeds added to it
I use a small baby bottle. I cut the nipple off half way, making the hole big enough to stick their beak inside. Then I cut the finger off a rubber glove, cut a slit in it and put it over the nipple. (that just helps stop messy leakage - a little)










They stick their beak in and suck out the formula just like their drinking water. Hey, its worth a try!


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## Otis7

My mind is at least at ease about any other conditions that may be harming him, for now at least. The big focus is feeding now. I'm home all day, going to try the baby bottle, the seed shaker and a few other things. He weighed in on my scale at 174g, I'll hopefully assume the vets scale is more accurate and calculate his weight from her. I just did peas and nutrical this morning. At least there's a bit extra going in him. He ate well but doesn't seem to be feeling great today, he's extra poofed up. Maybe 2+ hours in the car and two hours at the vet was just too much for him. Hoping so.


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## Msfreebird

What did the vet worm him with? Has he passed any worms?


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## Otis7

I guess he has not been treated for giardia, I was in information overload. If you all think that's a good idea I can probably get the meds next weekend, were headed that way on Saturday. He has albon, which I guess is for coccidiosis, and nemex (pyrantel Pamoate) per my invoice. I'm about to do a thorough cage scrub incase he did pass anything, probably going to through his log away. I didnt see anything in the quick poop check I did this morning. Normally when wake him up there is quite a large pile of droppings underneath him, this morning I couldnt even tell where he had slept there were so few poops. Is it possible with the peas that his body passes more because it has gotten as much nutrients as it can with them? Since he got a different food last night, maybe he passed less because his body absorbed more?


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## Msfreebird

Albon is for coccidia, that is what I use. I wouldn't worry about giardia meds.


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## Otis7

Cage is scrubbed, no worms that I saw. God this bird is cute, I'll have to post a new video with his little raspy voice soon. The more I call his name the louder he gets.


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## Otis7

Even the vet, who appeared fairly hard, seemed smitten. She off hand mention putting him down at the beginning of the visit, though when he flapped his way onto her shoulder and nibbled her ear I think she quickly realized his spirit and charm, the words were not mentioned again. My little fighter.


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## Msfreebird

This little guy sounds like he's a fighter/survivor 
Looking forward to more pictures


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## Otis7

Have a new video, just waiting for you tube to process. He does some spinning in this video, and you can see some of the "vertigo" symptoms. Will post soon.


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## Otis7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqOreW05AbU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

New video


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## altgirl35

He sure does act like a baby huh?
Not sure if circling is him looking for you or nuero 
I bet the bottle and shaker will work, he WANTS to be fed by momma


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## Msfreebird

Just saw the video. It's hard to tell because her (and I think its a she) enclosure is so small, that the only option she has is to circle.....if you get what I mean. She has a small, round enclosure. How is she if you put her down on the floor with more open space?
I would put her on the floor and throw some seeds/peas out in front of her to see if she follows them. Also, whereas she recognizes your fingers, wiggle your fingers in front of her (but don't speak), and see if she comes to them.


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## Otis7

I think you may be right about the she part, I'm going to keep saying he and lewis out of habit, but your probably right. Lewis might be louise.

He does not respond to finger wiggling, or floor tapping. Name calling works but he may not find me right away. He does get floor time, and will walk straight. Most of the time he spends bumping into things and nibbling them. He's constantly looking for food, or someone to feed him. He's started associating fabrics with food, and if he runs into a towel or clothing item will nibble it incessantly. 

He does not react to seeds on the floor, he reacts to the fingers placing them. I've tried all sorts of seed scattering, holding seed/peas up to his face. He may pick them up for a brief second but then throws them aside, nibbling more for a finger and a pea placed in his beak.


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## nancybird

Thank you for taking care of this bird.You are doing a great job.


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## Dima

Aw, what a an amazing pigeon. I just fell in love with Lewis.


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## Jaye

Just one quick comment...at that low a weight, try to make sure he doesn't drop from your hand to a hard surface. There's nothing there to protect the keelbone right now, and if he hit smack on it on a hardwood, tile, or linoleum floor....it could be dangerous.

Hoping the fluffing is just exhaustion from yesterday....that was a lotta activity for a severely underweight bird to have to deal with.....

Sounds like you have a plan.....just keep going with it.


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## Otis7

Thank you nancybird, and Dima that warms my heart. He's a good bird 

Just tried the seed shaker and got nothing. All this bird does is beg for food like a chick, tried the shaker and as soon as i got his beak in the slit he stopped moving, same thing happens when I try to get his beak in feed or peas. He nibbles my fingers constantly but as soon as I put feed in them he tries briefly then stops.


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## Otis7

Thank you jaye, your right, I should be more careful. Holding the iPad in one hand and bird in the other makes it harder to support him. Will definitely be more careful


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## Otis7

Is it possible that his throat could get scratched a bit during tube feeding? He was a bit gaggy yesterday and today. Spit up some peas. I can't tell if he is having trouble swallowing, doesn't like the taste of the nutristat or is just keeping his beak open and didn't realize he had a pea.

The first vet I went to called me about a pigeon today. Someone dropped it off, they said it's a big pigeon, mostly white with some grey. Very friendly and flightless, otherwise healthy. I called them and expressed interest with the thought Lewis may benefit from another bird. Maybe it could help teach him to eat if he followed the habits of a "healthy" adult bird. I dont know it would help or hurt, because I could possibly be stuck with another bird to cage and feed that couldn't live with Lewis. The boyfriend gave an adamant no, saying I've already spent too much money and time with Lewis when we have a lot of other animals on our plate. Ive found with birds adding a double isn't that much more work, certainly not like a dog or cat. He may be right though, and I can't do anything without him on board. I do feel for the bird though, and worry where he may end up.


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## altgirl35

I never listen to my boyfriend when it comes to birds! Lol
But that's me, I take care of them and I pay for them


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## Quazar

Otis7 said:


> Thank you nancybird, and Dima that warms my heart. He's a good bird
> 
> Just tried the seed shaker and got nothing. All this bird does is beg for food like a chick, tried the shaker and as soon as i got his beak in the slit he stopped moving, same thing happens when I try to get his beak in feed or peas. He nibbles my fingers constantly but as soon as I put feed in them he tries briefly then stops.


Just a thought, if he pecks at your fingers then try some seed in your hand, and form a sort of funnel with your 3 fingers and pinky, leaving your thumb on top but space for Lewis to nuzzle his beak in below the thumb.
While he does this tip your hand to let the seed roll down towards his beak.
If he gets the hang of that, then he may soon take to the shaker.
I would still try to persevere with the pecking fingers, it does sometimes take a while but i've never known a bird that doesnt get inquisitive eventually.


----------



## Otis7

I've definitely gotten some very good feeding technique advice, and im not sure what is bird error or human error. I think the best thing I could do is make a video of the variety of feeding techniques, unfortunately it will be a very long video as I can't edit on the iPad. But it's hard to describe what happens and it's hard to make sure I'm doing the right thing, I'll work on that tomorrow. 

Out of curiosity, are these techniques for baby birds? Or for wild birds that don't eat? People keep asking how long I'm going to try to get lewis to eat on his own, I have told them that at some point I may have to make an ultimatum, but I mostly push this thought out of my mind. I think we both get frustrated somedays. Love this guy through and through. Somedays I dread going to feed him because of then stress but then. See his reaction to me opening the door and calling his name and my heart lights up.


----------



## Jaye

Yes, it's possible for his throat to become sensitive after a tube feed. Keep an eye on vomiting, hopefully it will subside. If it continues, that is a red flag.

The idea of a second Pigeon could be good, or bad. Pigeons generally like company....but the thing is.....as your pal is handicapped, a healthy Pigeon might realize this and start picking on him...

I like the idea of seeds in hand when he starts pecking your hand, that could work.

Question: when you dip his beak in water....does he recognize it and drink ?


----------



## Otis7

I have not dipped his beak in a long time, when I first brought him home I did and he took sips. He stopped reacting to it awhile ago and I haven't pushed it much since. He does always have a clean, deep water dish though.

I was considering bringing Lewis to the other pigeon and observing the interactions. Both have been in solitary confinement for quite awhile now. I've had a few injured chickens I've introduced, and after an initial, painful to watch, introduction fase they did well. My most dominant chicken, who is old, has a badly healed broken leg and a plethora of health problems reigns most respected-even over the rooster (though she kind of raised 
him).

No vomiting that I have seen. If I can't get him to eat peas out of my hand, ca I get him go eat seed? I do try, daily, but he just stops nibbling. He wants to be fed desperately, but only peas popped in his beak.


----------



## Otis7

If he was a healthier weight I think I would try different methods more often, it's just so hard not to feed him what I know he will eat right away. I try seeds and mash after a full feeding.


----------



## Jaye

If he drank water when beak was dipped, you could mix up a watery baby bird formula, lukewarm, and dip his beak in that. Give the watery formula a try...see if he'll 'drink' some. I have had birds which did that and it was great because it was a very low-stress way to get 'em to gain weight. 

If he does, you can even mix in a small glob of the Nutristat with the formula.

This doesn't address your concern about weaning him off of handfeeding...it is regarding your concern about how to get some quick weight gain.


----------



## whitetail

Hi Otis,

I would concentrate on the feeding; the weaning can come later. It's kind of urgent for him to put on weight. When he's a healthier weight then you can experiment with a few things, now, just get his weight up, this is what I would do.
Good luck !


----------



## Otis7

I was preparing myself to post some bad news, that according to my scale he had lost weight. Though when I went up to feed he ate peas from my hand. In my book this is huge, he can eat four peas in the time I can feed one. Very scared over the weight loss (3 grams), but an ability to eat on his own is extremely encouraging. I tried seed and he had no interest. I will happily allow him to stuff his face full of peas this evening, then well try slurping some mash.


----------



## Jaye

I wouldn't freak over a 3g loss....the news is good if he will eat peas without being handfed. Just keep doing your best....


----------



## altgirl35

Right, 3 grams is nothing, he could poop and lose that!
Why don't you try some parrot pellets? Try to find some that are similar in size and shape
It will add extra calories to the pea diet and give lots of extra nutrition


----------



## altgirl35

Size and shape of peas


----------



## Otis7

Ive tried seed, pellets, Harrison bird crumbles, he won't eat anything but peas. I mixed some mash in with the peas and he wouldn't eat that, I had to keep tricking him by going from regular peas to "dosed" peas


----------



## altgirl35

Lol, little stinker, mbe could wrap him up and do pea popping with pellets
Couple times a day
Then let him fill himself up with peas the rest of the time
I know you don't wanna force anything but you kinda need to to make sure he's getting enough nutrition 
Mbe get a med cup ( those little ounce cups that come with NyQuil) into him twice a day
With peas to top off


----------



## Jaye

Yes, that's a good suggestion. Do pea popping while you have him wrapped up, and make every third pea a pellet. Something else you could do, if you wanna run out to the store again.....get some safflower seeds, and handfeed those as well.

Usually, popping the morsels of anything into the middle of the mouth, closing the beak, tipping his head upward and stroking beneath the lower beak will make them swallow most things....

Did the formula cocktail fail ????


----------



## altgirl35

Do you think you can do it? Do you want me to do a video of me popping peas into lumpy?


----------



## Otis7

I don't have any bird formula, but I'm going shopping tomorrow and can hopefully find a store that carries some.

Good news, he weighted in at 225g this morning, weight is going up! He feels better in my hands. I am no longer popping peas as he is doing so well eating out of my hand. Today and yesterday I mixed the peas with seed mix and nutristat, this worked well as the seeds stick to the peas so he doesn't have much choice. I even noticed him doing a bit of browsing with his beak.


----------



## altgirl35

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any more thoughts on his sight?


----------



## Otis7

Nothing has changed in that respect, if he can see it all it's barley. Still clomps, flops and bumps around his cage, falls off my lap and runs into things. Yesterday I noticed a slight glare to his eye. I have an old dog whos loosing her site, very similar look. I dont think that part is going to come back. I'm damn near ready to start building him a nice cage! I feel the edge of the woods is getting nearer!

He's getting louder with cooing, very cute. When I pick him up to feed him he sticks his wings straight up in the air and spins, cooing louder and louder until he finds then peas.


----------



## altgirl35

Oh yeah, sounds like he is here to stay


----------



## Otis7

Yep 

So I have a squeaker in my bathroom, in a separate cage from Lewis. The little guy is being released tomorrow. Should I try him with Lewis, see how he reacts to another bird?


----------



## Otis7

Well, I got jumpy and went ahead and tried it, with interesting results. (I wasn't worried about disease transfer, both birds are from the same farm)

The squeaker was immediately passified by the presence of another pigeon and started pecking around the pen. It ran up to Lewis and started pecking him, begging to be fed. Lewis seemed if anything annoyed and turned away, spinning in circles and begging for me to feed him. It made me quite sad, poor lew. It's hard to see him next to a normal and healthy bird. I did something different, I fed Lewis from my hand in his cage. The sqeaker ran up and investigated what I had, pecking with Lewis and occasionally trying to get him to feed him. Lewis still had no noticible reaction to the other bird aside from shaking him off. Then Lewis started pecking around his cage, looking for my hand. He managed to peck a pea and ate it, off the ground! He then started verocioualy pecking everything in the cage, including his water dish! He didn't sip but he did it twice in row, much better then the normal trampling through it! He continued to find peas on the ground and sorted slightly with his beak. I think this is a huge accomplishment! I think I may start feeding him above his food bowl, which is always in the same place. Hopefully he'll make the connection and find it on his own! I eventually took the squeaker out when Lewis was begging the baby for food and vice versa, they locked beaks!


----------



## Mary Lynn

Otis7 said:


> I don't have any bird formula, but I'm going shopping tomorrow and can hopefully find a store that carries some.
> 
> Good news, he weighted in at 225g this morning, weight is going up! He feels better in my hands. I am no longer popping peas as he is doing so well eating out of my hand. Today and yesterday I mixed the peas with seed mix and nutristat, this worked well as the seeds stick to the peas so he doesn't have much choice. I even noticed him doing a bit of browsing with his beak.


It is nice to see he is doing well. Congrats. Mine coos at me and sits around my feet and on my lap. Not sure about putting another pigeon with him. Might be company. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Skyeking

Sounds like he is really feeling better. He will have a wonderful little life with you keeping a close eye on him and his safety. Thank you for that.


----------



## Msfreebird

I'm so glad to see he is eating better and put some weight on!! Congratulations!


----------



## Otis7

Lewis' poops were a bit runny today. Should I be concerned? Still on peas mixed with seed and nutristat. I cooled it on the nutristat midday and stuck to plain peas this evening. He is eating more then he was previously.


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## mudsow

I used the Harrison's high potency (fine) to feed my rescue, it took time. but he's now up to 425g and eating on his own. (started at a bit under 310g)
I soaked mine. Put a spoonful in a shot glass, poured HOT water over it and let it sit for 15min. then stir. That is what I tube fed, like thick pudding. His poops were much better on that than the exact handfeeding formula. It also to me seemed more like a "stick to your ribs" kinda meal, the consistency. I added their avian enzyme and the booster, I figured it couldn't hurt and since I was tube feeding, it didn't matter if he "liked" it. It helped when I put the pellets in the blender to make a dry mash, and used that for soaking, it was less lumpy and didn't get plugged up in the syrynge. I fed my bird 48cc 2x day. Just for comparison's sake. Then when I thought he was eating, I reduced to 1x a day and kept weighing him to be sure he wasn't loosing weight. Now he eats all on his own. He is a PMV survivor, so not what you are going through, but if you can get your nerve up to tube feed, it will make everything MUCH easier. Meds, vitamins, whatever, down the hatch. Easy peasy. 10 min 2x day. So much better than fighting with him to swallow and you know he's getting enough. 

Good luck, he/she sounds like a real sweetheart!
Mudsow


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## pirab buk

Those poops look Ok. Some days you will get runny ones depending of what they eat 7 drink. the color looks good. But as always keep an eye on the droppings for changes.


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## Jaye

As long as he is gaining weight you are on the right track. Keep in mind, the diet you have been feeding her isn't as diversified as what she may have been eating before.
It's doing well to keep her going and for the immediacy of putting on weight, but it isn't a diet which can continue long-range.
So minor changes in the consistency of the poops is not alarming. 

If they get consistently runny, absent of white, lots of clear viscous fluid, or foamy...then there's cause for some concern. But I agree with Pirab, those are not alarming right now.

While Mudsow is correct, tube-feeding is a surefire way to weight gain, IMHO it is not worth the risk for a novice to try the method.


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## Otis7

Do I have to worry about Lewis over eating? Ive been working with him on feeding out of a bowl by himself, but I don't know if hell stop eating. His crop was so full it was hard as a rock. I know most birds are good at self regulation, but he may be brain damaged. I took the feed bowl out worried he'd over eat. Let him have at it, or regulate still?


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## Otis7

Note, I dont know if he will find the bowl on his own and eat, I have to lead him to it. When he finds it he eats


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## Jay3

You're doing a great job. I wouldn't worry so much about him over eating. I mean unless you give him a full bowl, and it is empty later that day. LOL.


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## Otis7

Hah, ok good. Yesterday he ate so much his crop was hard as a brick. Also, he's been trying to fly lately, it's pretty damn cute. He stands on his log and flaps his wings so hard, but nothing. He did fly when I first tried to catch him, so I'm sure success isn't far off. What do I do with a blind flying pigeon?! He has also started making the male pigeon noises when he gets excited.


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## Jaye

The male Pigeon noises aren't necessarily 'male' noises...I have had plenty of females do that too.

The flapping is a great sign. Indeedy, I am not sure a Pigeon who is blind would ever actually try to take off, though, if they could not see where they were going. That could be interesting.....it could also be some indication as to whether he has any sight or not.

I wonder if some sort of enclosure/environment can be set up whereby he has some tactile 'landmarks' which are always in the same place so he can become familiar with what the boundaries and limits of his surroundings are ? (Much the way a blind person would set their furniture, etc. one way and not be inclined to move it around).


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## altgirl35

So glad he is still doin good! Time for more pics!!


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## Otis7

I put everything in his cage in the same spot, and I think he's grown pretty used to it, I still assit for every feeding though. I tap my fingers in the bowl and call his name, he bumps into it but he's getting better at eating bis is own. He gets pissed when I mix in to many seeds and starts cooing and spinning, he really loves those peas! I have to redirect him a couple of times during feedings. 

I never really expected Lewis to be the kind of pet he is. I always said if he lives and needs me I'll keep him, but it's getting more difficult to design a life for him. My last pigeon would fly around the house with us, pace on the back of the couch while we watched tv, march around the counter while we made food, ect. I'm struggling with how to keep this bird fulfilled. I don't think he does much but sleep while I'm away during the day, i only find poops near his log. Hes always excited to see me but he's hard to play with and entertain. I think the only way he knows how to interact with me is by asking for food, and the only way I know how to interact with him is to give it to him. If I hold him he ends up falling, if he walks around on the floor he ends up getting lost and 
confused. 

My boyfriends a carpenter and we can definitely build him a nice cage, much better then his fire pit. It doesn't have a locking lid so he has to stay in the bathroom away from cats. I need to do research to build him a pad that takes account for his disability as well as developing potential (he flew in his original state, I'll think he'll try to fly again).


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## Otis7

Some pics, my little fighter has come a long way, thought I'd do a little before and after. I think were on the up and up!




































Lewis/lewielewielewie/louloulouloooisss says thank you, without you guys he would have surely been a goner


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## Jaye

Well, it is amazing how far he has come, indeed. The eyes are clearly visible....it is too bad that there seems to be something so seriously wrong with his vision, though. I wonder if it is neurological or physio-ocular in nature.

You know...only YOU can make the determination as to how his quality of life is/will be. It is a deep and serious thing, and I gather from your comments that you already know this. As you are the person most familiar with him, it sorta falls to you.

He can probably adapt to an indoor, companion lifestyle. The question as to whether his existence has some variety and quality to it, is something which will present itself probably over the next several weeks; we humans can do what we can to try to aid in that, by building enclosures, giving routines, etc. Perhaps his getting lost on the floor and such can be addressed by sonic cues from you. Perhaps you can try short, regular sessions on the couch with him where his paths are limited by pillows and such. I dunno, just some things off teh top of my head.

I understand your thoughts and feelings there. You wanna do what's best for your friend, and in order to do that sometimes we have to (with great difficulty) try to separate that, from our own personal feelings.

I have seen handicapped birds in a home situation who seemed quite content, and I have also seen handicapped birds in home situations who were more or less being kept alive with little quality to their existence, because their human overseer just could not bear to bring themselves to making the decision for their own human, personal reasons. 

It is tough.

You have done extremely well by your friend.


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## Otis7

It's hard to say, I'm not sure what caused the loss of vision. I will say that Lewis continues to develope new behaviors, from vocalizations (when i first found him he would not speak, then he started to grunt a bit, then coo, now he coos and dances), to attempting to fly. He seems to be gaining functions, though vision has not come with these. His left eye has a glaze over it, not as much on the right. He's made huge strides with feeding, and I think he will learn to eat on his own. I don't think he's a happy bird though, I think he's an alive bird. I love him, I plan on placing his cage in a prominent spot in the household, but I can't help but feel he needs a permanent companion. He's a bird, and birds need to be with other birds. I'm away from home from 7am to 430pm, it's a long time to be alone. I dont know how he'd function with a companion though. Couldnt stand him (or her) being beat up on. And like I said, he had no interest in that squeaker. He is obviously showing signs of being a normal pigeon, and maybe with time he'll deveople to be able to handle one living with him. I don't know. I think he still has a lot of healing and behavior growing to do. Your right, time will tell.


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## Otis7

Also, after posting photos I wanted to add that his cere is still brown, as posed to the bright white it was when I first brought him home.


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## Otis7

Couldn't help but post a few more pics! He's just too cute!
You can see how much more narrow his head is in this one


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## Dima

Wow, amazing recovery and still more for him to learn with his new disability.
I wonder, Jaye said that a blind pigeon will not fly, since it cannot see, which it makes sense, but when you got him , he was flying. You never know ..one of these days..may be..may be!... a miracle will happen.

And if not , since you think he is not happy , but just alive, i believe that a female companion latter on would be great.He will learn to follow her when she cooes and i am sure that with time she will go to him when he calls her ( my broken wing pigeon, calls for her mate who can fly and she comes to him- it took 6 months for her to understand he cannot go up ) He will learn to sense her when she's around but i wonder if he will know how to mate her...is it something that pigeons learn by seeing or it's just instinct?


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## Dima

BEAUTIFUL EYES...Awwww.


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## altgirl35

He really really looks great
Hopefully his vision will improve 
Eyes can take a long long time to heal
Him being a youngster should make his life in captivity easier to adjust too
In sure he will be happy and everything will sort itself out


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## Otis7

That's a very sweet story Dima, glad to hear they can adjust! Determining proper gender would definetly help find him a partner! I would assume, if I can't tell, a female would be a safe option? If he's a boy he's lucky, if he's a girl they may not bicker as much? I'm more experienced with chickens then pigeons!

And yeah, that picture makes me tear up, his baby face. I think he likes having the sides of his wings stroked. He doesn't like his back touched, that gets him flared up. Tonight I Held him in my lap and ran my thumb down his wing, he started to close his eyes. I did it again later, holding him in my hands and stroking his wings and it calmed him down. This was the first non food/food wanted interaction I've had with lew. Is this something your pet pigeons enjoy? 

I kind of ruled out that his vision would come back, his eyes were so awful...so much trauma, but I'd like to hold out hope. It would be wonderful if this bird could see! Would open so many doors for him.


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## altgirl35

They like their heads and ears rubbed sides if the beak back of the neck


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## altgirl35

OF the beak, sorry typing on my stupid itouch!


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> That's a very sweet story Dima, glad to hear they can adjust! Determining proper gender would definetly help find him a partner! Is this something your pet pigeons enjoy?
> .


My pets that allow me to touch them are the females without partners (i have more females). They do not like me to touch their body, but they love snuggling their beak between my fingers, as if my fingers is a beak to them. It's kind of mating behavior. They also love to be preened around the neck.


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## Otis7

I slept in a bit today, I guess Lewis got impatient! Boyfriend came downstairs to find him eating in his bowl, all by himself


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## Jaye

Actually, I didn't say he would definitely not attempt to fly because he cannot see....or did I ? If so, that's not quite what I meant. He might.

I think, Otis, you are making a few presumptions about him 'needing' a mate/companion Pigeon. While given the choice between the two...human and other Pigeon, they would tend toward the other Pigeon (assuming that Pigeon doesn't dislike him)...I have heard plenty of stories of rescues who have bonded with their caregivers after a short stretch. So I would not make that automatic assumption.

Although I commend you for your perceptions and concern over his happiness, and agree that you want him to do more than just survive in a sort of overly-compromised state...you want him to have some variety and quality to his days.

Also, the difference between Dima's tale and your situation is Dima's pal was only flightless, he had all other faculties and besides not being able to fly, basically could act normally. 

Lou is a bit different in that his vision is pretty much absent, and my concern is that a new bird might perceive him as being 'sick' or 'wrong', thus the possibility of aggression.

As an aside, any luck in catching the clomping one ????

Maybe I am overthinking that, but I think it is a possibility.


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## Otis7

"boots" was caught and released http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-club-feet-66957-2.html

I don't doubt his ability to bond with me, but I do know my work schedule. It's just such a long time to be alone, but yes, he may be mentally compromised and a pal for him would be a long time off.  Even when home, I have three cats that miss me just as much. Because of my last pigeons normalcy and ability to be outside he was easy to work into the family, lewis is a bit more difficult. I worry about him being alone, just doesn't seem healthy for a bird.


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## Jaye

Feel it out see how it goes, may well be that the more familiarity he has with his environs and routine, the more he will settle into things....


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## Otis7

I don't think flying is too far off!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKfGC_lmYvE&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> I don't think flying is too far off!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKfGC_lmYvE&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Wow..he looks so happy 

I am not too sure, but it seems that he is aware of his surroundings. There was a moment when he almost bumped into the door frame, but he sort of analyzed/looked closely moving his head . He may see some light though. Have you tried a flashlight to see if he reacts to light?


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## Otis7

The vet did, she said she couldn't quite tell. I think one eye may have some vision, but the other, the way it so hazy and opaque, I believe is useless. Or maybe things are getting better! It's hard to tell! He still relies on things like me tapping my fingers to find me or his food bowl. Eating peas on his own is going great, still no interest in seed but were still working on it. He's taking to falling asleep on my lap, quite adorable. 

Cage construction is under way! Soon Lewis will be out of the fire pit and in the main living space. Can't wait to be able to interact with him more.


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> The vet did, she said she couldn't quite tell. I think one eye may have some vision, but the other, the way it so hazy and opaque, I believe is useless. Or maybe things are getting better! It's hard to tell! He still relies on things like me tapping my fingers to find me or his food bowl. Eating peas on his own is going great, still no interest in seed but were still working on it. He's taking to falling asleep on my lap, quite adorable.
> 
> Cage construction is under way! Soon Lewis will be out of the fire pit and in the main living space. Can't wait to be able to interact with him more.


Did you try to put him in a sac of seeds That's a good way for him to figure out the food .


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## Otis7

Hah, should try it! he's deinetely aware of the seeds, He just meticulously picks through them and grunts at me every time he accidentally eats one. Picky little bugger! Thankfully they tend to stick to the peas so he inevitably eats a few, or a mix a mash in there. One day I ran out of peas (by the way, I have been through so many damn bags of peas since I've had this bird!!!) and had to go to work, so poor lew had nothing all morning. I was hoping get hungry enough to try the seeds, but nope! Came home to a floppy crop and a very angry bird.


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> Hah, should try it! he's deinetely aware of the seeds, He just meticulously picks through them and grunts at me every time he accidentally eats one. Picky little bugger! Thankfully they tend to stick to the peas so he inevitably eats a few, or a mix a mash in there. One day I ran out of peas (by the way, I have been through so many damn bags of peas since I've had this bird!!!) and had to go to work, so poor lew had nothing all morning. I was hoping get hungry enough to try the seeds, but nope! Came home to a floppy crop and a very angry bird.


Ha- ha...He likes you to think he's still a baby so you can keep feeding him.
You feed him defrosted peas? Does he eat from your hand or you have to pop them in his mouth?


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## Otis7

Yep, defrosted. After a few long weeks of pea popping I was able to get him to eat out of my hand. Now he can eat out of a bowl all by himself, we find him in there munching away. He completely associates me with food though, and every time I go into the bathroom he finds his bowl and starts eating. Or spinning and talking, wanting me to be involved in the process some how. He loves when I feed him from my hand.


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> Yep, defrosted. After a few long weeks of pea popping I was able to get him to eat out of my hand. Now he can eat out of a bowl all by himself, we find him in there munching away. He completely associates me with food though, and every time I go into the bathroom he finds his bowl and starts eating. Or spinning and talking, wanting me to be involved in the process some how. He loves when I feed him from my hand.


How cute.
What about you put inside the pea skin, regular hard peas or push in other small seeds like lilo , millet, safflower. It sounds like lots of work to peel the skin of the peas and put the hard ones inside, but may be he gets the taste of it. Does it sound crazy my idea?


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## Otis7

I think that's worth a shot!


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## JohnB

Hello otis.

I've registered on the site before a week or so just for Lewis.

I'm watching this topic since the beggining and i've had a dream with someone telling me the bird didn't make it,when i woke up i got here to see if everything was good and you don't know how good i felt when i saw you keep posting about him.


I'm very concered about his vision as with such thing going on with his head you don't have a good evidence that a healthy vision will recover.

In your early videos upon times you could say that he could understand where he was going but after a while he eas behaving like he was moving solely by the hearing.

We can't tell anything until he will fully recover and look just like a healthy bird with shiny feathers,without hanging wings,etc.

His optical nerves were definitely squished in there,which means that the best he could see was shadows and stars,his eyes looked alive and going so this should recover in the most part,unless the actual eyeballs suffer from something...

Brain damage is not a big problem as far as vital features are not affected,for example growth,movement,nutricion,etc.

I'm almost sure after this he will be a little unstable on flying and not that accurate on the direction he would be trying to walk to,but this is as far i can go with brain damage.


As for food i think you should keep on rushing the nutricional ones,maybe you can later try pellets and also try Lentils? 

Mine are attacking lentils like nothing else,specially cooked,i don't know about "sick" birds of that nature though,thankfully till now i've only messed with foot damage due to wrapped strings.


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## Otis7

I'm absolutely touched by your interest in Lewis, he is such a great bird who's come so far. I tried lentils, rice and barley last night, all cooked. No interest. He picks through them then huffs and walks away. This bird is totally hooked on peas. I either have to trick him, force feed him, or feed him peas. Lew won't touch anything else. 

It's definetly tough to say where his vision will go, or where his brain damage left him...all I can say is that week by week, he developes new behaviors...from this he must 
be recovering to some extent. I just hope his life is good, I worry about providing him enough. Boyfriend says the cage is two days away from completion, I think being out with then family and out of the bathroom will be very good for him.


Is this diarrhea?


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## altgirl35

Yes, is he pooping like that all the time or just here and there?
My birds occasionally will have a watery one
Have an African grey that gets stress diarrhea and if a bird drinks extra water sometimes it can be like that


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## pirab buk

I think peas, if that is all he is eating, will give him loose poops.
I give my pigeon a mix of Harrison pellets and dove mix.


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## altgirl35

How is Lewis doin?


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## Otis7

Just occasionally, sometimes they're firm and sometimes they're watery. 

Lewis is doing well, still just peas. But he's doing great despite that. His cere is turning white again. He's still desperately attempting to fly, but such a love bug despite his handicap. He fell asleep in my lap while we watched tv last night. Wonderful bird, much work to do for a long healthy life, but for now were managing just fine.

Cage framing complete, almost done! Cats are all too interested


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## Otis7

Lewis' cage is finally complete! He seems to love it so far. He couldn't flap very well in the fire pit and has spent much of the morning working out his wings. The cage was built around an old dog crate pan so I have easy pull out for cleaning. The window rarely gets sunny, not until late in the day and I'm home from work, but there's nice bright light through out the day so he won't bake. He's been very happy with being out and about with the family, and cooed constantly as we talked this morning. The cats have thankfully already lost interest in him.


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## Msfreebird

Very Nice!  I would put a mirror in there and see if he interacts with it. Might give you a better idea of his eyesight.


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## Skyeking

What a lovely home!


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## Otis7

Thanks! I'll definitely try the mirror. Plans are in the works for a spring time outdoor playpen for him so he gets plenty of sunshine and fresh air.


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## pirab buk

My pigeon's hutch looks almost exactly the same! i've place a small wooden box with a towel on it so he can roost at night as well.


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## JohnB

Hello.

I'm glad you finally got a nice place for him,it's really a nice closure to see his new home .


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## Jaye

Otis, put a brick in there. Once he figiures out what/where it is, he will probably use it as a perch. They like perching on bricks.


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## Mary Lynn

Nice house. Does he get out sometimes??


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> Lewis' cage is finally complete! He seems to love it so far.


Lovely home.


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## Otis7

Thanks everyone! I'll try the brick, we have plenty laying around. We do take him out, but he really just likes to be held in your lap. He's not much for walking around in unfamiliar places, can't see well and gets upset and confused.


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## Jay3

That really is a nice cage for him. Good job!


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## Dima

If he likes to sit on your lap, may be you can make a nice, soft, cozy nest for him in the cage, to feel like he's on your lap when you're not home.


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## Mary Lynn

Dima said:


> If he likes to sit on your lap, may be you can make a nice, soft, cozy nest for him in the cage, to feel like he's on your lap when you're not home.


Yes my Pidge loves sitting on my lap on a blanket. I have several really soft blankets for her. These I put in her bed.


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## Otis7

That's a good idea, I bet he'd enjoy that


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## altgirl35

Very nice!


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## pirab buk

Is he eating on his own now? And how is his poops?


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## Otis7

Lew is eating on his own, but still just peas. He had some watery poops in the car the other day, but I think he just got a little queasy on the trip. His poops are decent for the most part, but definitely pea poops. I caught him exploring the seed dish the other day, didn't eat anythinghubt chewed some stuff and was curious.

So as of now there is another pigeon in his pen. The vet called me about a lost non flying pigeon a few weeks ago, I thought about it and declined but found out he was still there yesterday, feeling bad for the bird I took Lewis to meet him. He's a beautiful (white grizzle? I know nothing about racing birds/homers) bird, was certainly someones pet. The vet was set on releasing him and worried about his fate if he were to be released, I brought him home. He was living in a stainless steel cage, by himself, with nothing but a small perch in a dark utility closet. The interaction went ok, Lewis, being his typical goober self, was spinning in circles cooing and received a couple good pecks from the white bird. 

I had planned on separating them but the scared white bird took to Lewis, at least hiding behind him. Lewis is clueless and seems to have no recognition of the difference between a pigeon and a hand. He asks the bird for food and I feel awful when he gets pecked, as I worry he will think it's me doing this. This pigeon is obviously too much bird for lew, who I think is destined to be an only pet. I posted about him in the adoption forum and am looking for a great home. This bird is desperate to fly and socailize.


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## Otis7

Last sentence was a bit confusing, white pigeon is too much bird, I'm looking for a home for him, but certainly not an only pet. Lews the only bird


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## Otis7

Thought I may be due for an update on Lewis.

He's doing great! Lewis happily and successfully eats on his own, but unfortunately still only peas. I do try other things occasionally, but aside from the constant cage cleaning required when your pigeon only eats peas, he's gaining weight well. I can barely feel his keel bone, his feathers are soft and shiney, and he is an active little bird. Still blind, his eyes have sunk in slightly, they are glazed and I'm fairy sure are useless. He can blink and shuts his eyes and falls asleep when I rub his wing feathers. Lewis has a cage mate now, they do fairly well together and I think it keeps him exploring and using his slightly damaged brain. He does explore the seed dish occasionally when the other bird is eating. He still does not drink water aside from occasionally dipping his beak then quickly shaking it off. Thanks to all for their help with lewis the burd!
Lewis, the king of the pea dish









Lookin' slick









Watchu up to ma?


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## JohnB

Hello Otis.

You gave some very good news to us.

It's sad that the eyes can't see,i was hoping this will improve eventually but it doesn't seem likely.

In either way what matters is that he fall into good hands.


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## pirab buk

awww! poor little guy. i'm glad he is eating and appears to be surviving in a nice warm house!


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## Mary Lynn

Congrats very nice job!! You must be pleased. He looks so cute. Thanks for the update.


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## Otis7

Thanks! He's a wonderful little pet. Every morning when I come down stairs and start talking he flaps his wings and coos, ready for some affection. He's seems to stay busy and entertained in his cage despite his handicap, but loves to be handled as well. He even takes baths now! Slowly it seems his memory of what it is to be a pigeon returns. I plan on building an outside exercise pen when things warm up, of course it will be quite secure. I think a little grass under his feet and sunshine will do him some good. Love this little guy, and so do all our guests! It's hard not to be touched by his fighting spirit


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## altgirl35

Aww lew, what a lucky bird you are getting so spoiled and loved
Thank you Otis for caring so much for this sweet soul


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## Skyeking

*Lewis looks wonderful! Thank you for taking such good care of him and for the update. Please do continue the updates and pictures....and also of his new room mate.*


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## Jaye

Great update. Next thing is to get him to eat a variety of foods. Perhaps you can start handfeeding other things like safflower and chopped peanuts, for starters....


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## Jay3

You're doing a great job with him. Looks great!


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## Otis7

Will do! I still work with Lewis frequently on upping the variety od his diet, but with little success. It's been nice for both of us to have a break from hand feeding, but I do think I will resume soon. Despite his lack of variety, he is a healthy fella.

Here's Lewis roommate, called "white bird.". A good name hasn't developed yet. He came from my vets office, where he was spending his days in a dark hall closet.

Here he is enjoying some fly time on our screened in balcony.


























We still don't know if we are the right home for white bird, so if anyone knows of a repsonsible pigeon owner in the maryland area who would take good care of him, let me know.


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## Mary Lynn

What is wrong with him? Is he a he? And is he tame?


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## Jay3

A homer. Is he banded? Do you have an idea of whether he is male or female? Very pretty.


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## Msfreebird

Thank you for the update on Lewis. Sorry to hear about his eyesight, But he looks very happy and is very lucky to have you.
If 'White Bird' is found out to be a hen, I would keep her so Lewis can have a companion


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## Otis7

White bird isn't banded, he was found flightless on someone's porch. They brought him to my vet, who called me to pick him up. Despite his ability to fly, I just didn't feel comfortable releasing him. He is not very tame, a bit hard to handle but he has adjusted to life with humans well and doesn't show signs of stress.


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## pirab buk

Did the vet check him out? many time when pigeons who are flighted and do not fly they have respiratory issues.


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## Otis7

She sees birds but it not a highly qualified bird vet from my own experience. Anything I can do to check him out? He does fly now


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## Otis7

Yay Lewis!!!!

Not only is Lewis caring for her eggs, she's eating seed on her own!!!

Here's this awesome video of a WONDERFUL and BLIND mama!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_83DcD1Aco&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## altgirl35

Omg!!! Lewis!!!
Must know more!
Did Lewis and homer dude hook up? Are they bonded?
Aww in so happy for her <3<3<3


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## Jay3

Wonderful update.


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## Msfreebird

That's great news! Congratulations


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## Otis7

Just had a rescue gone wring with a squeaker, so I thought I'd post a positive update.

Lewis and white bird are now a mated pair, their first batch of eggs was unsuccessful and the booted them out of the nest at 19 days. They just laid their new batch four days ago, and from my candeling I see viens everywhere! I think these tw are going to have some squeakers. Lewis is eating seed regularly, she is an awesome nest care taker. Super dedicated to her eggs. White bird is a good daddy and relieves her often so she can get a bit to eat. He is very protective over her (Lewis no longer likes me and pecks me, at first it was a bit heart breaking but I know her life is better with a mate than a human caretaker) and often preens her while she sits on the eggs. I love these two, and can't wait to see what they make. She's earned it.


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## Otis7

I think I posted this video on another thread, but for those who didn't see it may be neat to see the pigeon who could only blindly walk in circles carefully care for her eggs. Still blind, but still working hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_83DcD1Aco&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Skyeking

*What an awesome update! Congratulations!

They are really living a full and a wonderful life.... thanks to you! 

It is not that she doesn't like you, but she is just being a protective mother-to-be and just doing what comes natural. 

Thank you for the update, and I hope you will update when there is a hatchling! *


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## Otis7

Thanks! If there are babies there will be plenty of baby pictures I guarantee it! Lewis has a following on my Facebook now, even those who never liked the birds seem to have a soft spot for this little trooper.


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## altgirl35

Awwwww
What a nice update
<3<3<3<3<3


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## kunju

So touching! Pigeons continue to amaze us with their resilience all the time!

Lewis is so lucky to have found you. Looking forward to lots of baby photos!


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## Miss-Sassypants

I didn't even know this thread existed until today.

Then I slowly read all 26 pages to follow to the event to today. Oh my... Otis, you are a wonderful human being. A lovely, lovely caretaker. It's so amazing how far Lewis has come!

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for inspiring the human race! I am now a fan and will bookmark this thread for updates. Do post pics and videos. Lewis and White Homer Dude are just meant to be - so interesting how their paths crossed - with you in the middle!

All the best with the eggs!


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## Otis7

Thank you!


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## Jay3

Congratulations Otis7! Will be expecting pics.


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> I think I posted this video on another thread, but for those who didn't see it may be neat to see the pigeon who could only blindly walk in circles carefully care for her eggs. Still blind, but still working hard.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_83DcD1Aco&feature=youtube_gdata_player


OMG..She is such a sweetheart..she is trying hard to be careful with her eggs. She is amazing. I learnt a few life lessons from Lewis


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## Msfreebird

What a great story!!!! Lewis was very lucky to cross paths with you


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## RockPigeon<3er

Oh I just finished this entire thread and its such a beautiful, heart warming story! I wish Lewis (or 'Louise'  ) and white bird best of luck with their babies ^^


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## Otis7

They did it!!! Egg number one hatched today!!!

So far I've only seen white bird feed, he's been spending most of the time on the nest. Lewis kicked him out once and sat for fifteen minutes then white bird kicked her out.


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## Skyeking

Otis7 said:


> They did it!!! Egg number one hatched today!!!
> 
> So far I've only seen white bird feed, he's been spending most of the time on the nest. Lewis kicked him out once and sat for fifteen minutes then white bird kicked her out.


*Congratulations!!!!! Mom and dad will work out a schedule as they both will be feeding as the baby grows.

I bet you are enjoying watching them in their new roles as parents. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Pictures are a must, but give them time alone for now. *


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## Otis7

Lew and white were off the nest for a minute.

Lil beebs and egg sibling


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## Otis7

Just saw Lewis feed the squeak. My heart may well up and explode! This bird continuous to amaze me. Couldn't feed herself, can now feed another.


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## Jay3

Wonderful isn't it? They are amazing creatures.


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## Skyeking

*Awwwwwe! So cute! Little beebs is a doll!

I totally know how you are feeling.*


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> Just saw Lewis feed the squeak. My heart may well up and explode! This bird continuous to amaze me. Couldn't feed herself, can now feed another.


This wonderful news for everyone who knows Lewis's story.

How does she manages to get in and out the nest without steeping on the baby?


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## Otis7

She does! They don't seem to mind though! She tries nibbling them to figure out where they are. There are two now!


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## Dima

Otis7 said:


> She does! They don't seem to mind though! She tries nibbling them to figure out where they are. There are two now!


Congratz Grandma , for the 2 of them! It Must be very exciting for you.


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## Skyeking

*Congratulations on the newest hatchling!*


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## Otis7

Very exciting! To see Lewis feed them was the kicker, I really wasn't sure how she would handle that. White bird is also being an awesome daddy, I can tell he's dying to sit on the nest but they finally seem to be working it out.

What we do from here, I'm not sure! No clue how to house these four pigeons! And how to deal with the potential for inbreeding? Yikes! We have a lot to figure out


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## Jay3

Well, you can buy a fake eggs and switch them out. That will keep the numbers down. You can end up with a lot of pigeons in very little time.
Must be fun to watch them. Congratulations.


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## Otis7

I will definetly be replacing eggs for awhile, I just couldn't bare to deprive these two after how far they have come. (this is coming from. Pretty die hard spay and neuter fan, I guess it's harder when you can't take the parts away!). Time for a pigeon loft I suppose!


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## Jay3

Updates on the babies as they grow please.


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## altgirl35

Oh so beautiful!!! <3<3<3<3


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## Otis7

Love this family


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## Otis7

Twisters eye opening, queenie followed shortly after. Twister seems to be showing more white and queenie more grey, can color be indicated this early?


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## Jay3

Oh...how cute are they! Nice couple. Everything worked out wonderfully!


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## altgirl35

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!
I can't stand it!! So happy!!!
No idea about color but 
Awwwwwwwwwwwww!!!


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## kunju

Otis7 said:


> Love this family


Such a beautiful picture. Lewis seems to be reveling in the pleasure of having found his soul mate, and being a parent of 2 cute babies!


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## Skyeking

*What a lovely family portrait. *


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## Miss-Sassypants

altgirl35 said:


> AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!
> I can't stand it!! So happy!!!
> No idea about color but
> Awwwwwwwwwwwww!!!


I second this!!!


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## Msfreebird

OMG!!!!!! I just caught up with this! Congratulations! This is the best story ever! Have you considered writing a children's book?  Lewis is truly a Miracle Mom!


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## Jay3

That is a great picture.


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## pirab buk

OMG I love seeing the babies!


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## Otis7

Hah, I should write a story about them! They are just two cute. Mr. White is now busy trying to get Lewis to nest in the water dish. These birds waste no time, huh?

We have feathers!








A friends daughter came over when they were still in egg form. She loved the pigeons. She collected all their downy feathers that were stuck to the cage wire and took them home. A few days later we got a letter in the mail containing this pigeon down pillow for Lewis and the babies. I put it in to stage a pic for her, but totally forgot to take it out and twister has been happily sleeping on it.
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab297/Oti67/329abaf2dec8f8ede30132673013a
b03_zps04c3d69f.jpg
Looks like were going to have one miniature white bird and one miniature Lewis? Dunno! But I love that they're different and the one we dubbed female looks like lew and the male like mr. white! (I'm sure it will be the opposite once we can tell!)


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## Otis7




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## Jay3

They're adorable! The pillow was a sweet gift. I hope you sent a picture to the friends daughter who made it.


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## Skyeking

*Wow! They are getting SO big. That pillow is a sweet and thoughtful gift!*


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## Otis7

Hello! Its been awhile! I see I received two private messages about pigeons in si liar situations, I feel badly I didnt see them in time to respond. I hope things turn out ok and I will try to be more available to give advice! Maybe even type up a post on brain damage and blindness.

Some pictures!
First, my beautiful lew bird.









Next mr. White, dutifully sitting on dummy eggs









Next the babies! Well, they aren't much babies anymore. They definitely have their daddy's homer blood, they are extremely high strung and hyper compared to my calm and gentle Lewis and mr. White.
In fact it's hard to get pictures of them...









As you can see, I am the demon spawn of satan. These two are terrified of me! Despite the fact that I feed and water them daily, as well as move them to their day one which they get super excited about. They do not much like being moved to their night pen. Bonding is still in the works and a long time coming! Despite the name queenie, I believe them both to be boys. (thank god, staves off the worry of inbreeding). They were separated from mom and dad shortly after learning to fly. They were beating up on lewburd and mr. White (nor I) was NOT having it!








http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab297/Oti67/a51c7a1f97f82e8d50932e037560c4b7_zps9aa48061.jpg


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## Otis7




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## Dima

Beautiful babies Lewis & Mr White have. I love the blue bar 
Lewis looks like she has no blindness.

What an amazing journey for a blind pigeon; a blessed pigeon.

I have a blind pigeon with one eye. But for the rest of her life she needs eyedrops from vet , if not ( since it's too costly) only eyedrops lubricant. I don't know what kind of damage it happened ( it's a banded pigeon), initially conjunctiva and eye ball was sticking out, but as time passes, the eye ball is going deeper and deeper in the scull, keeps shedding dead cells, and conjunctiva ( upper side) still swollen.

As for your babies, i noticed that between 3-5 months old also mines were skittish, but as time goes by, with treats, they will become sociable.


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## Otis7

Lewis is for sure still blind, she can't see much at all but maybe shadows. Her eyes stay like that, with the eyeballs sunken back and the lids half closed. Nothing seems to bother her though, she is in a wonderful partnership with a wonderful fella. He seems to except her blindness with grace, I can't believe they raised two chicks together! When twist and queenie got older Lewis could no longer handle feeding them, the neck jerking was just too much for her, but mr. White took on the responsibility, and even gave flying lessons while lew laid a new clutch. I love this couple. They lay eggs quite constantly, I just recently received the dummy's in the mail, I hated throwing their eggs away. 

That sounds like a lot of work! Lewis' eyes retreated into her skull for awhile but stopped where they are now. How often do you have to do the drops? Did you track down the og owners?

What kind of treats do you offer? In the pigeons Ive had, I have yet to get one to take what I found to be a treat. Lewis wont even touch a pea anymore. I hope I can bring them around!

Also, tickled by the term blue bar, I would have just called him a barn pigeon!


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## Jay3

Pigeons love chopped _unsalted_ peanuts. It's just that you have got to get them to try them first. They don't even know that they're food. Once they do though, they all love them. Mine fight over me when I pull out the chopped peanuts. LOL.

Peas aren't really treats. They're just food. Most also like safflower seed. Don't give a lot at a time, of either as they are high in fat. Just as a treat.


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## Dima

Yes, unsalted peanut are good treat. Give them Spanish ******* small size so i don't have to chop them, though some are still to big for them to eat. I prefer as treat sunflower seeds without shell and Mung peas or moong peas ( are tiny and green)...mine love it.
Chopped spinach and lettuce are healthy treat ( not too much lettuce as they get diarrhea).

As for my one eye blind pigeon..the owner brought her to me. She was lost for 2 months and found in Toronto, 2 cities away from her home. I guess I have to give eye drops until that eye stops shedding dead cells. The eye is dead and probably no veins to supply blood for it. The vet found the lens of the eye 180 degrees turned inside the eyeball. I cannot think what could have caused that, except a hard hit.


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## pirab buk

Those pigeons are beautiful!


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