# Color question



## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

What color babies would you get if you put a yellow hen and a ash red cock togeather. saddle homers.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Assuming the yellow saddle is ash-yellow, then all the kids will be ash-red UNLESS the cockbird carries dilute. If he does, then half of the daughters will be ash-yellow but the rest of the offspring will be ash-red. If he is carrying blue, then you will get some blue daughters (may also be silver daughters if carrying both blue and dilute).


If the yellow bird is recessive yellow, then there's no telling.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Here's the yellow


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Heres the ash red


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Okay, the hen is ash-yellow like I figured and the cock is carrying blue.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

If the cockbird carries dilute and then hen is dilute you will not only get dilute hens but also dilute cockbirds, So this pair could breed dilute hens and cocks if the cockbird carried dilute.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

You will get 50% red hens, 50% blue hens and all the cock birds will be red. This is assuming the cock birds does not carry dilute

If he does carry dilute then you will get dilute hens and cocks.

If you are lucky and they both carry some other recessive gene then this may also shows itself in the offspring.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

What should i mate with the yellow to get more yellows besides another yellow. I have opal lace, black, opal bar, everyone wants yellows and there are not many around.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

None of those, you would have to mate it with another dilute bird or a carrier of dilute. The only other option would be to take a son of her and cross it back to her i believe.

As for a cock who is carrying dilute paired up with a dilute hen, you are both wrong with the outcome 

according to http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/expectations.html

you get 

Non-dilute cock (het for dilution) X dilute hen = Dilute cocks, dilute hens, non-dilute cocks (carrying dilution) and non-dilute hens.

So it would break down to 

50% ash red cocks (carrying dilute)
50% ash yellow cocks

25% ash yellow hens
25% ash red hens
25% blue hens
25% silver hens


If thats a silver cock behind your ash red then that would get you all yellow of one sex, i think cocks. Not sure on that one


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

thepigeonkey said:


> If the cockbird carries dilute and then hen is dilute you will not only get dilute hens but also dilute cockbirds, So this pair could breed dilute hens and cocks if the cockbird carried dilute.


I forgot about that. I need to stop doing punnett squares in my head. If a cockbird carrying dilute is mated to a dilute hen, then 50% of the sons will be dilute and 50% of the hens will be dilute.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> None of those, you would have to mate it with another dilute bird or a carrier of dilute. The only other option would be to take a son of her and cross it back to her i believe.
> 
> As for a cock who is carrying dilute paired up with a dilute hen, you are both wrong with the outcome
> 
> ...


Im not sure how this makes me wrong, All I have said is from the pair he has that he will get 50% red hens 50% blue hens, with 50% of the cocks being het red split for blue and 50% being **** red, This is assuming the cockbird does not carry dilute.

if the cock bird carries dilute then you will still get all the above colours with some of them being diluted, Please explain what part of this is incorrect.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah i passed up your second statement where you went further


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

As for putting a silver cockbird (or any blue based cockbird) with the hen, the sons would be ash-yellow and the hens would be silver.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Heres the ash red


 The bird pictured here with the red cock is not a silver but is avery fine blue grizzle. .GEORGE


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> As for putting a silver cockbird (or any blue based cockbird) with the hen, the sons would be ash-yellow and the hens would be silver.


True to a point, Though If the bird is any other blue based bird not carrying dilute then none of the offspring would be dilute but they would all carry. If the cockbird is silver then the above is correct.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

The bar color seems very dull to be blue


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

george simon said:


> The bird pictured here with the red cock is not a silver but is avery fine blue grizzle. .GEORGE


Im not sure if Mary was suggesting it was a silver in the background but just stating that a silver bird paired to a ash yellow bird is a sex linked pair and that the colour would cross sexes in the offspring, The pair we are talking about being the ash red cock carrying blue with the ash yellow hen ( assuming the cock bird does not carry dilute ) is what I refer to as partially sex linked in the way that if you breed a blue from this pair assuming that no cross mating has occured then you can be sure it is a hen.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

thepigeonkey said:


> True to a point, Though If the bird is any other blue based bird not carrying dilute then none of the offspring would be dilute but they would all carry. If the cockbird is silver then the above is correct.


I should have went into more detail. Any blue based cockbird with a ash-red based hen will create a sex-linked mating.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I would say mate it to the ash red , thats your best bet to get yellow .


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

PigeonVilla said:


> I would say mate it to the ash red , thats your best bet to get yellow .


Defenitly, An ashred cock that doesn't carry blue would be ideal in order to get yellows. Remember UNLESS the ashred cock you use carries dilute then none of the F1 offspring will be dilute but the cockbirds will all carry, Those F1 cocks will produce 50% ash yellow hens.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

OK thanks, I think i'm going to put those two together in the spring, and see what happens.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Just a last note, remember that dilute and colour series are on the same chromosome and crossover will occur in male birds between 40% and 50% (lets use 40% for this example). That makes the whole story a little more complicated when involving an ash-red cock carrying blue.

First generation: Ash red cock split for blue (BAD+//B+D+) x ash-yellow hen (BAd//-)
Hens:
50% Ash-red (BA//-)
50% Blue (B+//-)

Cocks:
50% Ash-red split for dilute (BAd/BAD+) ................... (1)
50% Ash-red split for blue and dilute (BAd//B+D+) ..... (2)

Here is where the story gets funny, if cock (1) is mated to any hen, everything will happen as described before and 50% of the hens from the mating will be ash-yellow. If, on the other hand, cock (2) is used in the mating, then we will have a somewhat different and more complex result for the hens:
30% Blue hens
20% Dilute blue hens (crossover occurred)
30% Dilute ash yellow hens
20% Ash red hens (crossover occurred)

I know crossover is a topic that very few people want to discuss, since it complicates some things immensely. But it is an important artifact in this particular discussion.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Something I have never studied but makes complete sense, I am going to do some more reading, Thanks for pointing this out


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Any good material on the internet on this crossover topic? I have not read a lot about it but would like too.


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## red2x (Nov 20, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Okay, the hen is ash-yellow like I figured and the cock is carrying blue.


How can you tell this bird is carrying blue just by looking at it?
Shady, great looking saddles by the way.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Because of those little blue flecks in the feathers. In ash red cocks if they show that it means it carrys blues. Only in the cocks, and only in ash red.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Because of those little blue flecks in the feathers. In ash red cocks if they show that it means it carrys blues. Only in the cocks, and only in ash red.


Also Ash red cocks will show Brown flecking if they carry brown, I have a wee Ash red thief pouter from a brown hen with obvious brown flecking in his tail.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Any good material on the internet on this crossover topic? I have not read a lot about it but would like too.


Crossover is a basic part of genetics, and there is a lot on the internet concerning crossover, but very little concerning crossover in pigeons specifically.

The two URLs below are a good starting point (but are rather technical in nature)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_crossover
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_linkage


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Crossover is a basic part of genetics, and there is a lot on the internet concerning crossover, but very little concerning crossover in pigeons specifically.
> 
> The two URLs below are a good starting point (but are rather technical in nature)
> 
> ...


Thanks, I have only studied pigeon genetics giving me a very basic understanding of genetics as a whole. I like technical.... will have a read, Thanks


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