# My Pigeons Has Canker??????urgent!!!!!



## amamuffin

=hbhjkb;jkn


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## Pidgey

There are several possibilities. Where are you? Oh, yeah. NYC. Okay, you can get a product for fish tanks that will take care of it. I'm going to have to go find a reference to it, though.

Read this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7538

Pidgey


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## Pete Jasinski

If you email me where to ship it I'll send you some Trichocure. They're one dose pills that you have to get the pidgie to swallow . I'm in NJ so it should get to you in a day or so.


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## feralpigeon

Sounds like Pete's saving the day, Pidgey, but bookmark this one:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/formulary.htm

Don't worry amamuffin, sounds like you noticed it early.

Best,

fp


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## pdpbison

Hi annamuffin, 

Are these slightly 'yellow' at all? Yellowy-white? and looking kind of like little bits of small curd Cottage Cheese? In their throat?

If so...this would sound like Canker or Trichomoniasis illness...


You might be able to get some appropriate meds from local wildlife rescue/rehab folks if you can locate some...from any local Pigeon racers or Fanciers, if you can locate them...or, from any Avian Vet, or maybe even stores which sell Bird supplies for Bird Pet owners...

Canker is also a Trichomoniasis, and this is a common malady for that matter with commercial foul of various sorts, so any Farm supply outfit in your area may have something for anti-trichomoniasis...even if in packets for making 50 Gallon batches or something. These do not tend not be expensive, and the "Emtryl" used to come that way for that matter, and a packet cost about what a Sandwhich and a Coke would have...so...

"Spartrix"..."Ronidazole"..."Emtryl" or "Metronidazole" ( I think)...and various others..."Berimax"...

A.S.A.P. of course would be best...

Make sure whatever you get that you are correct with the dosage...and or with the successive dosages if of the kind of med one uses over some days...

Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## amamuffin

*Yes It Is Canker*

k nsknqopnwd modn12podnj12 ndnio2niop


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## pdpbison

Hi Ama,


Usually an easy 'cure'...

Follow up with "Berimax" ( get on line via 'google' searches) which is supposed to eradicate even the low level background populations of the Trichomonads, so that none remain, which the medicines usually do not do.

Very common malady...

Birds may carry it as a background accomidation often, and it can then flare up if the Bird's immune system or nutrition is compromised...

Young or Baby Birds may get it from parents who carry it without the parents themselves showing symptoms...

The Organism lives in moist Soils and Birds get it when drinking from puddles...

Birds who do have it may contaminate water they drink from, especially if the water is in a little dish shared by many...

"Emtryl" I think was/is actually 'Dimetridazole'...

The soonest anyone could get any meds to you would be Tuesday if they mailed them "Next Day Air" on Monday...

Some of these same meds are used to treat various things in people...

You could get meds not only as I outlined above, but, also, likely, from some Pharmacies...

If you call around, you can likely get some tomorrow day, instead of having to wait longer for some to arrive in the mails...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon

Hi amamuffin,

You might have a bit of a problem trying to get the people version from a Pharmacy without a prescription. That might take some fenageling, but something you could do right away while you wait would be to add a tablespoon of Apple Cider Vinegar
to one gallon of water and only give that water for your pij to drink. That's had easily and cheaply enough and will help to keep the count down on the organism. You can also follow up with the medication with the same batch of water. I usually keep mine refridgerated and let sit in bowl after serving to get to room temperature. Apple Cider Vinegar would be best to use especially the 
kind at Health Food Stores such as Bragg, however white vinegar is also purported to do the trick if that's all you have on hand right now. Start and then swap out for the Apple Cider Vinegar when you get it. Don't use the fancy ones like wine or with herbs. Garlic would be OK.

Best,

fp


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## pdpbison

Hi fp,


Yahhh...you are right about the scrip...

A friendly Veterinarian could likely provide the scrip if they themselves did not have the meds on hand...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

feralpigeon said:


> Hi amamuffin,
> Apple Cider Vinegar would be best to use especially the
> kind at Health Food Stores such as Bragg, however white vinegar is also purported to do the trick if that's all you have on hand right now. Start and then swap out for the Apple Cider Vinegar when you get it. Garlic would be OK.
> fp/QUOTE]
> 
> Hi amamuffin,
> 
> Make sure you follow the strict dose of 1 tablespoon per gallon, if you don't the bird will not likely drink it as it may be too strong. The health food store ACV is best, as it has the "mother" in it which provides potency and better results.


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## amamuffin

*questions to treesa*

iubhi;ujhniujk


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## amamuffin

*hi again*

oi2feh[io2fhjio


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## NumberNine

Go to a health food store (for humans) and buy a bottle of Apple Cider Vinegar. Preferably, buy it in a non-transparent bottle. Light, just like for milk, does damages to the product. Look at the bottle of acv to see if it contains "mother". Go to www.omeganutrition.com if you wish to learn more.

If someone has a bird with canker and it's an emergency, here's what you can do: Go to a pharmacy and see the pharmacist. Tell him/her something like: "I need a small favor. I found a bird and it has canker. If I don't treat the bird right away it will die (which is true depending on the state of the disease - this comment is for you only). Could you be kind enough to give me a SINGLE tablet of Metronidazole 250mg (it costs about 10 cents to the pharmacist). You see, I need to crush that tablet and divide in 10 equal parts, then administer it to the bird."

Place a single tablet in a tablespoon and use a teaspoon to crush it to fine powder. Then use a sheet of paper, you know the one with small squares all over (drafting paper) and cover 10 squares. Mix the equivalent of one square with a few cc of water in a teaspoon and suck it up using a syringe. Open the beak of the bird and insert the syringe past the opening of the trachea and inject! Note that if the bird is at a very advanced stage of canker and therefore, has an empty stomach, then make sure to have a bottle of water nearby where the bird can go drink water right after. 

Give the bird 25mg once a day, every day for 7 days. And try to do it at the same time. Except, if you want, you could, for example, give the first shot on Monday 9:00PM and the second shot on Tuesday morning at 9:00AM. The third shot would be on Wednesdau at 9:00PM and all other shots at 9:00PM.

You do not need to be concerned about the weight of the bird. I've never used Metronidazole on a very young pigeon (less than 6 months). Using Metronidazole repeatedly on the same bird will make the bird resistant to the drug.


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## feralpigeon

Hi amamuffin,

When acv has the "mother" it appears to be unfiltered and has sediment in it that is visible. Bragg's is a common product at Health Food Stores and has a website discussing their product. They've been around a long time. However,
if you ask the staff at the store, they should be able to help you.

I use the garlic oil capsules and currently have the softgels w/parsley oil as well. The concentration of garlic is 500mg's and place at back of throat allowing the bird to swallow itself.

Again, for now, if you have no acv on hand but do have plain white vinegar,
start on that and swap out when you get the acv later today. We're looking for an acidic environment to lower the organism count here, and while the acv is the best, the white will do until you get the acv.

Best,

fp


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Numbernine - I too, rely on metronidazole to treat canker, only I have a different method. You state to give 25g - is that 25 grams? Do you weigh the solution?

I use 1, 250 mg tablet; crush to a really, really fine powder, mix with 10 ml (cc) water, put in a small bottle with a cap (I use a small dark brown bottle that I get through the vet's office), shake the devil out of it and then using a 1 ml (cc) diabetic type syringe draw up the amount I need. Say, for a 200 gram bird, the dosage would be .16 ml (cc) 2 x day. I refrigerate the remaining solution (I recently talked to my vet about the refrigeration part and her advice to me was if I mix it with a solution to refrigerate) and draw the solution from the bottle for the remaining 7-10 days of treatment, always using a sterile syringe for each dose. One 250 mg tablet is usually enough for the 7 days. You MUST always shake it really well just before drawing up the dose. I do think the weight of the bird is important in giving any drug.

This is like deja vu - I think we've discussed this back in the summer? 

Amamuffin - you can see there are lots and lots of drugs for canker but whichever you plan to use try to get it right away.

maggie


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## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel,

I'm sure he meant milligrams, just a typo. It says in the formulary that the dose (at least for Psittaciformes) is 10 to 30 mg/kg BID (twice daily) for 10 days. With the exception of the duration, this range of dosage brackets yours. Metronidazole is also used for liver infections as a true antibiotic instead of an anti-protozoal so perhaps that is the reason for the 10 days.

Pigeons are usually dosed at the higher end of the dosage ranges though, probably because their metabolism is at the high end of the avian spectrum.

Actually, Maggie, I did the math a little closer and your dosing strategy is absolute dead-center of the range. NumberNine's definitely errs to the high side and that's unlikely to be a problem here. There's a fellow that I know (a racer) whose dosage is a half-pill (the 250 mg pill) down the throat for as many days as it takes to clear the visible canker and a quarter-pill for a nestling (I just called him and checked). At that dosage, I don't expect it takes too long. Anyhow, his birds aren't dropping dead from the treatment so you have to wonder.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

You know Pidgey, that's good info about halving or quartering the pill. Dosing that way would be much easier than all the mixing and shaking. I have used Spartrix, a few years ago, and it was certainly easier to dose. I'll ask my vet what she thinks. You know, there has to be a simpler, easier way to help people when these issues come up. They don't have the resources that we have and ready access to medicines or equipment. But, I don't have a ready answer and probably should not contribute to the overall confusion.

Thanks, maggie


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## Pete Jasinski

Hello Ama,
I sent the pills out Priority Mail so they should be there within a day or so.
I hope they help!


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## NumberNine

Lady Tarheel,

thank you so much for catching a very dumb typo. Pidgey is right, it was only a typo which makes a HUGE difference (I edited and corrected my previous post).

What I write is based on my experience. The vast majority of birds I get are at a very advanced stage of canker. Almost every single time, looking down the throat, I can see that crusty white growth. There is almost no room for seeds to go down the throat. Like I said earlier, the first two administrations of the drug is done 12 hours apart. I do so to give the bird a boost at fighting the disease.

I understand the method you use by mixing the whole tablet with water and getting a few cc of that mixture. That's the way I do it with the Costco Multivitamins. But I don't like the idea of doing it this way with a "drug". To each his own. It's a matter of personal taste, that's all. I prefer the drug to be mixed with water right before administering it to the bird.

I think we should give humans and animals as few drugs as possible. All drugs have side effects. Some we might see immediately, others we might discover in 30 years. It is for this reason that I only use it for seven days. Not one bird I treated this way failed to fully recover. One of them is still with me. I treated it for canker 10 years ago.

If I were to treat a very young pigeons (days or weeks old), I would certainly reduce the dosage. All the birds that ended up on my laps were adults. I like my way because I can always rely on a fresh supply of Metronidazole. I simply go to the pharmacy and get my prescription filled.


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## pdpbison

Hi NumberNine, all...

Just as a reminder of options for liesure -

Ronidazole is thought to be kindest for the Baby or young Bird ( say, under four weeks...)

And likewise the new "Berimax"...

But of course either is also good for Columbiformes of all ages.

I myself tend to see Canker or other forms of the Trichomoniasis in Pigeons and Doves of all ages.

Too, when I have mixed two Tablespoons of raw ACV to the Gallon of Water, (which I have not done for address of Canker per-se, but rather for supected or definite Candida and slow-Crop problems) no one seemed at all reluctant to drink...if anything, it seemed to me that they liked it..!
Lol...

My only concern with now having reduced my mix to 'one' Tablespoon to the Gallon of Water, is that the concentration may be less effective.

Now, what do we know about that? Can "two" Tbsp's to the Gallon have adverse effects? Or is it merely that sometime, some Birds may find the taste-experience to be a little off-putting?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Well, I'm not that educated about the use of ACV as a curative. Years ago, I came across a loft management tip that ACV could be used to increase the acidity of the water and that was purported to keep bacterial growth down. 

Oddly enough, the tip said to use it during winter which seemed strange to me because the cold does a pretty good job of inhibiting bacterial growth as a natural function. Were you aware that the invention of refrigerators has actually decreased the incidence of stomach and intestinal cancer? Now, you can either assume that the reduction of bacteria is responsible or you can attribute it to the fact that without refrigeration, food preservation methods shift towards pickling and the excessive use of salt.

Anyhow, without the benefit of clinical proof (peer-reviewed, double-blind studies) as to which theory is actually correct or whether they're both contributing in some ratio, any statement made is anecdotal at best.

I use the stuff, but not as a curative. When I've got a sick pigeon with a potentially life-threatening illness, I try to diagnose and then hit the suspected or confirmed bug with the most lethal medication that I've got in my arsenal.

As a preventative, I only trust it so far. Pigeonmama was using ACV when her pigeons started dying of what we ultimately believed to be paratyphoid earlier this year:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11696

She also mentions there that they were vaccinated, against what I don't know. I have read that not all vaccines are created equal and I'd really like to know at this point what the particulars were of those vaccinations. Whenever you think you're safe, real life has a way of proving you wrong. Also, anytime something is purported to be a panacea, you really need to be extra careful.

But to answer your question (actually, not) the only mention whatsoever of ACV in the Avian Medicine book is that a 5% solution can be used on the cloacal mucosa to check for papillomatous growths as it temporarily renders them white and, therefore, easy to distinguish. So, clinically speaking, it actually does have a legitimate function. Of course, my book IS ten years old. 

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

pdpbison said:


> My only concern with now having reduced my mix to 'one' Tablespoon to the Gallon of Water, is that the concentration may be less effective.
> 
> Now, what do we know about that? Can "two" Tbsp's to the Gallon have adverse effects? Or is it merely that sometime, some Birds may find the taste-experience to be a little off-putting?
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Phil,

I remember that doses over 1 tablespoon, not only are a put-off, so therefore the birds didn't drink it, but there was a negative effect on the pigeons that did drink it. But that was long term use, I think it pickled their insides.


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## feralpigeon

H folks,

A couple of threads on ACV that might be of interest and from a good source:

http://www.albertaclassic.com/chalmers1.php

http://www.albertaclassic.com/search.php?q=apple+cider+vinegar

There's also alot in here using the search engine. One thread describes the adverse effects of using too much acv in water from 2 or 3 members. They of course were larger amounts. One was infertility, and when the acv was d/c'ed,
the birds bred just fine. The other was from a member who had an autopsy done and results were too acidic an environment. Were these people using more than 1-2 Tbls. per gallon, yes. Did they rotate, I don't know. The one tablespoon came from the articles @ the site above, and just a thought that it is better to be cautious than overdo something. There could be adverse effects or that they wouldn't get enuf fluids.

Now would I use it to cure Canker, un un....but, knowing that Pete was gonna send her meds, knowing from past posts that amamuffin is on overload and low in funds, it seemed reasonable to use something usually in folks kitchens to limit the increase of organisms until the meds came through. She should have them soon. I also think it's alot for some folks to deal w/things like the 250 pill even tho a few here have no problem w/it. But a new comer might find it all abit overwhelming.

And Pidgey is correct about the situation w/Pigeonmama, but are the statistics for direct contact or for shedding, I don't know.

fp


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## pdpbison

Hi all,

So far, in my experience, the use of ACV ( I was useing two tablespoons-per-gallon, but I will use one from now on ) for Crop stasis seems to have proven effective and easy.

These may have been occasions of Candida, and I belived them TO be Candida, but I did not have any definitive tests done to know for certain.

Recently a new Bird who I thought had the Candida, I did get tested and indeed it was.

In these occasions I have let them have that for their drinking water for about five days.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon

It works well on a yeast based diaper rash and is recommended for that in conjunction w/other mechanical things as well as in a more severe case, a thin application of Nystatin. Both the visiting nurses and hmo docs will recommend 
it. That depends on the severity of the situation. It's not abandoned in severe cases, just other things and more frequently applied.
I think the key is severity of condition. 

fp


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## upcd

*Fishzole*

Can be bought at any pet shop. 250 mg tabets for a baby 1/2 tablet wet straight down the throat for 3 days. 7 days if really bad case. White or ACV on Q- tip right on lensions. If lension are blocking breath areas they can very carefully be remove with the Q-tip.


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## Skyeking

feralpigeon said:


> H folks,
> 
> A couple of threads on ACV that might be of interest and from a good source:
> 
> http://www.albertaclassic.com/chalmers1.php
> 
> http://www.albertaclassic.com/search.php?q=apple+cider+vinegar
> 
> There's also alot in here using the search engine. One thread describes the adverse effects of using too much acv in water from 2 or 3 members. They of course were larger amounts. One was infertility, and when the acv was d/c'ed,
> the birds bred just fine. The other was from a member who had an autopsy done and results were too acidic an environment. Were these people using more than 1-2 Tbls. per gallon, yes. Did they rotate, I don't know. The one tablespoon came from the articles @ the site above, and just a thought that it is better to be cautious than overdo something. There could be adverse effects or that they wouldn't get enuf fluids.
> 
> Now would I use it to cure Canker, un un....but, knowing that Pete was gonna send her meds, knowing from past posts that amamuffin is on overload and low in funds, it seemed reasonable to use something usually in folks kitchens to limit the increase of organisms until the meds came through. She should have them soon. I also think it's alot for some folks to deal w/things like the 250 pill even tho a few here have no problem w/it. But a new comer might find it all abit overwhelming.
> 
> And Pidgey is correct about the situation w/Pigeonmama, but are the statistics for direct contact or for shedding, I don't know.
> 
> fp


Thanks for clarifying that fp!


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## feralpigeon

Your welcome, Treesa.  

Interestingly, here is a recent post from the NYCPRC from jujubear about ACV:

"Here is a chart for those who are using Apple Cider Vinegar for their caged birds. 

1 tablespoon of Apple Cider Vinegar in 1 gallon of water.

Comes out to:

.93ml ACV in 1 cup of water
1.39 ml ACV in 1 1/2 cup water
1.85ml ACV in 2 cups water
2.31ml ACV in 2 1/2 cups water
2.77ml ACV in 3 cups water"

Julie

"We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."
Mother Teresa


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## Skyeking

fp,

Thank you for that valuable conversion chart, good to keep that with pet pigeon care & homing pigeon care, so it doesn't get lost!

Treesa


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## feralpigeon

Hi all, and thanks Treesa.

Amamuffin, I was wondering if you've gotten the medicine yet, and if you know about the bird burrito trick? Just in case, you wrap a towel or pillow case around the bird just enuf to keep the wings and fidgeting to be a problem. Then get the beak apart and hold open w/one hand while the other hand pushes the pill toward the back of the throat, allowing the bird to swallow the pill on its own. Let us know how the pij is coming along w/the medication, OK??

fp


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## Pete Jasinski

Hi Ama,
I hope the meds made it to you by today! They really should have been there overnight since we're not really that far away. If they're not there soon I'll reship more.


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