# Help please, Squab death



## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

I have white homers. Since last spring '07, there have been NO squabs survive past pin feather stage???? Pigeons are fed "Go-Get-Um" Racing Pigeon Blend, and fresh H2O daily. the adults all appear healthy and pretty. 

Background, had a flock of 28 and never a problem with population - until last spring. had a preditor reduce my numbers down to nine. Had a few eggs hatch last Summer '07. No squab matured. Molting season now over the remaining have began laying again with the same result. Healthy pinfeathered birds - just die? 

I live in Northeastern OK and weather has never been a problem. Any knowledge or information would be appreciated. I like to watch the flock fly. Thank you for any offering you have. 

David


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*What is Scalped Babies?*

I have just read in another post "scalped babies". Can someone please tell me what that means? 
Thank you,
David


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

David, That's when an adult pecks the head of the baby pigeons.
As for you other situation, do you have mice in your loft? If so, their droppings can make your birds sick. They can get salmonella from the droppings which the parents are passing on to the babies. So it could be that.
Don't let anymore eggs hatch until you have this situation resolved. Let the birds go through their cycle of incubating the eggs but give them wooden eggs or plastic eggs to lay on. They can be purchased, on line, at pigeon supply places such as Jedd's, Foy's, Global, New England. You can find a link to them in our resource section.
They also have medications for salmonella.The birds can be vaccinated too.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Are you innoculating your birds for PMV, Paratyphoid, and doing any preventives for Canker, E coli, and such? This could be one of many things.


Any other symptoms?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You have feed water, do you have grit? Also as said you may have some health problems. You could order several meds. BUT you can get sulmet at a feed store or vet supply treat the birds for 1 week and it would help. Now weathere is getting warmer so cold at this stage will be getting ruled out. You are holding your breeder birds in not flying them while they are on small young are you. Where in N E okla are you. I live In Enid.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And I live in Tulsa...

Pidgey


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## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

go to rollerpigeon.com and order a vial of pmv vaccine and a vial of sal bac. Innoculate your birds and wait two weeks before you let them breed again. If I had to guess I would say it is salmonella. Shoot`em in the base of the neck in the little group of muscle where the wings and the neck come together.

g/l


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, finally got in touch with 007david and he's new to computers--he wasn't able to find his way back to this thread. Anyway, he doesn't live here in Tulsa, more like about an hour away to the southeast from me. He doesn't have any drugs on hand so we're going to have to work on that as well as simply trying to diagnose what his birds may have. He's going to go get a dying nestling right now and call me back in a few minutes. We'll try to get some more information and narrow it down some, hopefully.

Pidgey


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Okay, finally got in touch with 007david and he's new to computers--he wasn't able to find his way back to this thread. Anyway, he doesn't live here in Tulsa, more like about an hour away to the southeast from me. He doesn't have any drugs on hand so we're going to have to work on that as well as simply trying to diagnose what his birds may have. He's going to go get a dying nestling right now and call me back in a few minutes. We'll try to get some more information and narrow it down some, hopefully.
> 
> Pidgey


 Is he around the tahlequa area Or near muskogee. Sounds like to me sulmet would help and be easy to get. Isnt there a supply house in the tulsa area also?


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## yellowking (Feb 25, 2008)

dirty lofts leads to all sorts of problems, introducing new birds leads to all sorts of problems. Fresh clear water does not mean safe water. You can name all the problems, ecloi, canker, etc. 4 things you need to go back and review, 1) clean loft? 2) introduced new bird(s)? 3) did you go somewhere that may pass on a deisease to you and to your birds? 4) recheck what you are feeding them.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

re lee said:


> Is he around the tahlequa area Or near muskogee. Sounds like to me sulmet would help and be easy to get. Isnt there a supply house in the tulsa area also?


Yeah, Tahlequah. After talking to him, the nestlings seem just fine and then go downhill very quickly. I did get him to smell the breath of the one and he did say there was a little odor. Might be canker but I'm not used to canker being quite this regular in killing nestlings. This one is the last one living at the moment. There are more eggs hatching so more should be about this age in three weeks or so. We did determine that this little guy has an empty crop so he's obviously been sick for a day or so.

Pidgey


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

He really does need help. Whatever it is, it has to be something that the adults are old and strong enough reject, but they are carriers for it, and infect the hatchlings, and they die.
Could be anything from Salmonella (strong contender) or canker to worms. Could be a nutritional deficiency weakening the birds, then bringing on coccidia.
I'd say this is one for the vet lab.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Yeah, Tahlequah. After talking to him, the nestlings seem just fine and then go downhill very quickly. I did get him to smell the breath of the one and he did say there was a little odor. Might be canker but I'm not used to canker being quite this regular in killing nestlings. This one is the last one living at the moment. There are more eggs hatching so more should be about this age in three weeks or so. We did determine that this little guy has an empty crop so he's obviously been sick for a day or so.
> 
> Pidgey


I used to live there. Tell him O, SI, YO. Yes could be canker. bUT the parents would have it. Pharathiphoid, or coccsidious Is my thought. E coli agin the old birds would be dropping to. The coop there should have sulmet. He can start treatment now and the next round might make it. He needs to clean trhe loft bleach the waterers, And Tell him if he gets his problems taken care of I will give him a few white homers to get him going agin. My son plans on moving back to tahlequah very soon. Is the young gettting off weight look thin mabybe spradel legged. . Or if canker this bad bloatee crop with air. gasping for air. and a look down the throat would show the canker. Also what feed mix is he using.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He told me that he feeds in the morning and throws whatever they don't eat that day out that evening. He said they just get lethargic and go to sleep, more or less. He had 30 birds last year and a raccoon got in and killed a bunch--now he's only got 11 adults.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That is so sad. I hope he does get the medicines needed and get this health issue, resolved.


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*Thanks*

Thanks to all of you. Your knowledge is going to solve this issue. (as I have no knowldege). All of your suggestions and ideas are great. The contact from Pidgey - great. 

I am not great on the computer and just learning about how this can be a useful tool. And it is going to be. Could not get back to this thread. UNTIL thanks to Piggey - sent me a link. Thank you.


Update. I have two squabs on Easter. Seem to be getting stronger and larger. Look great. going to the co-op to locate some of the remedies that have been suggested. More later. 

Again I can not thank you enough. 

David


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*got some meds*



re lee said:


> I used to live there. Tell him O, SI, YO. Yes could be canker. bUT the parents would have it. Pharathiphoid, or coccsidious Is my thought. E coli agin the old birds would be dropping to. The coop there should have sulmet. He can start treatment now and the next round might make it. He needs to clean trhe loft bleach the waterers, And Tell him if he gets his problems taken care of I will give him a few white homers to get him going agin. My son plans on moving back to tahlequah very soon. Is the young gettting off weight look thin mabybe spradel legged. . Or if canker this bad bloatee crop with air. gasping for air. and a look down the throat would show the canker. Also what feed mix is he using.


Thank you for your information, I went to the Co-op and purchased some Sulmet. Will begin treating the water tomorrow. I hope this will let the squabs mature. Thank you again. David


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

so a week after easter im assuming the birds are all ok?


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Hearbreaking to hear about the raccoon attack! Hope the area is well secured now!

Praying that all is well with the newly hatched as well as the parents.
Looking forward to an update.

Blessings upon Pidgey for contacting/assisting David & Re Lee for offering him the white homers. 

Reading this thread about the meds/vaccines, was wondering if I'm supposed to get/give any vaccines to the pigeons/doves even though they don't fly outdoors. ???


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Are you innoculating your birds for PMV, Paratyphoid, and doing any preventives for Canker, E coli, and such? This could be one of many things.


Hi Treesa...just wondering if I should get innoculations for PMV for my guys. Can they get PMV even though they don't fly outdoors 
Also, what type of preventitives would one use for Canker, E coli....etc.?

Hope to hear good news from David soon!


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

CHRISTIN RN said:


> Hi Treesa...just wondering if I should get innoculations for PMV for my guys. Can they get PMV even though they don't fly outdoors
> Also, what type of preventitives would one use for Canker, E coli....etc.?
> 
> Hope to hear good news from David soon!




pmv is USUALLY not seen unless the birds get it from another bird. i vaccinate my birds one time when they hit the floor. 

my birds get apple cider vinegar 2x a week in their water (2 TBS per 1 gallon of water) and vitamins and electrolites once or twice a week when they fly a lot


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

CHRISTIN RN said:


> Hi Treesa...just wondering if I should get innoculations for PMV for my guys. Can they get PMV even though they don't fly outdoors
> Also, what type of preventitives would one use for Canker, E coli....etc.?
> 
> Hope to hear good news from David soon!


Hi Christin,

We always recommend that all birds be vaccinated IF they fly outdoors or have any contact with outside birds, or if you bring new birds in the loft. Other then that you shouldn't have a problem.

Here is one of my regimens, prevention and nutrition:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760

Here is one for pet pigeons:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10848


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Great info., Eric & Treesa...thanks so much!
I mixed the 2 table spoons of ACV in the gallon of purified water and put it in the water dishes this evening. I hope they drink it all up before I change it tomorrow.

Still sending well-wishes and prayers your way, David. Please let us know how everyone is doing when you get a chance!
Blessings to all!


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*update*

this morning everthing looked really good. Little suqabs peeping. trying to streach. Really a great site to see. Was pretty excited. Today when I watered them I added an oz of Sulmet to the gallon of water. Everything looked really good. then this evening? The squabs are really quiet. even to the touch of my hand. Almost had to wake them up it seemed. ----------------- AND an adult is becomming ill-------------(on the floor, is able tofly but trouble standing and flys weak. My birds are not as trusting as Pets. they ordinarly do not let anyone touch them unless the are guarding their nest. ( they are not bothered when nesting. but have on occasion pet them rarely.
Left them alone for about 5 min and returned to more energetic squabs. today purchsed a camera will try and get you a photo to see.

Again thanks for all of your suggestions on this matter. 
Thanks, David


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please don't let any more babies hatch until you have this illness issue resolved. Please.
Take Renee's advise and buy some amoxicillin and treat your birds. Individual treatment would be best because that way, you will know they are getting their medicine.
Remove the sick bird, keep it warm and treat it and make sure it's eating and drinking.


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*Tell me*

Can someone inform me as to how to get a photo in here? I am new to computer communication. 

Thanks David


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

007david said:


> Can someone inform me as to how to get a photo in here? I am new to computer communication.
> 
> Thanks David


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=17782


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*photo*

Evening April 1, 2008


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*sick adult bird*

here is the adult that is not doing well?


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

007david said:


> this morning everthing looked really good. Little suqabs peeping. trying to streach. Really a great site to see. Was pretty excited. Today when I watered them I added an oz of Sulmet to the gallon of water. Everything looked really good. then this evening? The squabs are really quiet. even to the touch of my hand. Almost had to wake them up it seemed. ----------------- AND an adult is becomming ill-------------(on the floor, is able tofly but trouble standing and flys weak. My birds are not as trusting as Pets. they ordinarly do not let anyone touch them unless the are guarding their nest. ( they are not bothered when nesting. but have on occasion pet them rarely.
> Left them alone for about 5 min and returned to more energetic squabs. today purchsed a camera will try and get you a photo to see.
> 
> Again thanks for all of your suggestions on this matter.
> Thanks, David




just the way they are acting, it sure sounds like cocci but never heard of them getting it after sulmet
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..









CHRISTIN RN said:


> Great info., Eric & Treesa...thanks so much!
> I mixed the 2 table spoons of ACV in the gallon of purified water and put it in the water dishes this evening. I hope they drink it all up before I change it tomorrow.
> 
> Still sending well-wishes and prayers your way, David. Please let us know how everyone is doing when you get a chance!
> Blessings to all!


 you are very welcome Christin but i buy acv by the gallon at the local grocery outlet. it is very cheap 3.75 a gallon so i dont worry if they dont drink all the water. i change all 3 waterers every day because i like fresh water to drink figure they will too

E..


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*amoxicillin*

With out an MD prescribing amoxicillin how can I purchase some? Is there an Over The Counter amoxicillin at the Co-Op? 

Thanks, David


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

you can get antibiotics for poultry over the counter at our local feed store or foys or global
E..


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*Thanks Eric*

I will be getting to the Co-Op tomorrow Eric. Thanks. Here is a photo of some (i believe) healthy birds.


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

birds that have cocci look cold all the time to me. they fluff their feathers up also even if you just have one adult with it the poops look like water. speaking of water what do you have for waterers? are they shaped so that the sick birds can not poop in it? very impotant because they spread it around easily.
E..


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

you are very welcome Christin but i buy acv by the gallon at the local grocery outlet. it is very cheap 3.75 a gallon so i dont worry if they dont drink all the water. i change all 3 waterers every day because i like fresh water to drink figure they will tooE..[/QUOTE]


Thanks again, Eric! I bought a small bottle that cost 3.79!  
Glad you let me in on the gallon size...I'll pick up a few from the grocery store tomorrow!


David, Thanks for the update and pics. I'm really praying for this to resolve. Seems like your doing everything possible. Keep the Faith!


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

007 please re-check your loft, look for any signs of pigeon flies, then check all your nests, take them apart even if they look dry, check the bottom of nest you are looking for any moisture from droppings if you find some discard the nest! I believe you are having a re-current cocci problem! Your mature bird I bet has been showing signs of lameness, if not good, it hasn't gotten acute yet most mature birds get immune to some degree to it but then shows up in the youngsters at about the two week stage, so i would get some "cocci pills" for individual treatment! Keep a close eye on that bird, increased thirst, losing weight (going light), if possible isolate that bird and begin treatment
This is one of many good tablets! Please let us know how things work out!

http://www.jedds.com/data/ProductImages/4788Large.gif


COXIMED 100 tabs (Medpet)
ENGLISH : Coximed 100 tablets
Product presentation:
For the prevention and treatment of Coccidiosis in pigeons. For pigeon use only.

COMPOSITION (each tablet contains):
- Diclazuril 5 mg

DIRECTIONS FOR USE (use only as directed):
- Racing Pigeons: Dose one tablet per pigeon once a month during the racing season.
- Breeding Pigeons: Dose one tablet per pigeon once a month during the breeding season.
- Young Pigeons: Dose all young pigeons with one tablet the day after weaning.
- Sick Pigeons: Dose all sick pigeons with one tablet, and treatment after 10 days.

WARNINGS: Keep out of reach of children and uninformed persons. Do not slaughter pigeons for human consumption within 10 days of last treatment. Although this remedy has been tested under a large variety of conditions, failure therefore may ensue as a result of a wide range of reasons. If this is suspected, seek veterinary advice and notify the distributor.

STORAGE:
- Store in a cool, dry place
- Keep container tightly closed

PRESENTATION: 100 tablets

MANUFACTURER:
Oberon Pharma
39 St. Georges Street
Ophirton
2091

Manufacturer: Medpet

From: $19.95

quantity:


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The coop will have terimycin . And other antibiotics. BUT let the sulmet treat first. USE it for 1 week Well 5 days. It will work on cocsiddious, salemnela, And ecoli. If you have a bird limping. dO you have any birds with wing boils. BUMPS on the wing. IF so YOU have salemenla. . Now after you treat with the sulmet. Wait 1 week. Then you might use antibiotics. BUT if the birds are seeming better. Then Just get sompoulttry vitimans at the coop And treat them for 3 days mixes in the water. Also see if the coop has or can get mineral grit Red mineral grit is good And the young birds need grit as well as the adult birds. HELPS digest the grain. Have you noticed many or any mice near and around the loft. AND as I said I will off you some replacement whites To get you going agin. Do you want them? Where around tahlequah do you live In town or ? Used to work for the nation When I lived there.


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*Progress*

Re Lee, thank you, for that medication information. that will be my next step if needed

This morning. 4/4 everything looks great. I used the sulmet in the H20 for two days, Tues and Wed. The day on Tuesday the adult bird seemed to be ill, (quite ill ) almost lame. I put a photo here in a prevous post. was squatting, not flying well etc.... On Wed. I could not tell which bird it was. As all of these birds look the same to me. 

The squabs also were more active. 

Today, Friday AM everything looks really good again(for now). I am hopeful the sulmet was the answer. 

I was ask by a poster not to let any other eggs hatch! I understand the concern. My problem is - If no eggs hatch, I have no idea if the problem has been solved? 

More later - You have all been a great source of knowlege and I am thankful. More later as things progress. 

David


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*opps*

I am sorry, Thank you *DEEJAY *for the med info. 

re lee, I live on the East side of Tahlequah. I hope my problem is taken care of. Even so, I am happy to get additional birds. I like the idea of new blood in the flock. Currently ( and I need to keep it ) all are solid white homers. I would even buy some if you had some for sale, just to get new blood. 

Thanks, David


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

YIPEE! Still praying for continued progess! It's worth all the work and worry to see everyone feeling better and back to normal!!! 
Look forward to a nice photo spread of all the happy and healthy birdies soon! Blessings to the little hatchlings as well!
Will keep checking for more good news! AMEN!


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*ahhh Man*

Christin. thank you but unfurtunately now at 1:00, 4/4, I checked on the little guys and found the smaller of the two was not living. 

sorry for this inforamtion. 

In a recent post it was thought there might be a problem with coccidiosis. the label on the Sulmet says it is for this treatment. It says an oz / gal of H2O for two days then reduce to 1/2 oz per gal for 4 days. 

I have used sulmet for the past three days.


Thanks, David


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

007david said:


> I am sorry, Thank you *DEEJAY *for the med info.
> 
> re lee, I live on the East side of Tahlequah. I hope my problem is taken care of. Even so, I am happy to get additional birds. I like the idea of new blood in the flock. Currently ( and I need to keep it ) all are solid white homers. I would even buy some if you had some for sale, just to get new blood.
> 
> Thanks, David


 How far from the river. Here its up pretty good From the big rains. I said I would GIVE you some birds They will be white And they will be young birds. Will say 10 birds be enough. I will raise them Have several pair on eegs now and was getting ready to cut off the pairs. So I will go this round for you to get you some extra birds. DO you band your birds I would suggest you do that helps knowing the birds and helps when they get lost. PLUS good for records.


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*re lee - thanks*



re lee said:


> How far from the river. Here its up pretty good From the big rains. I said I would GIVE you some birds They will be white And they will be young birds. Will say 10 birds be enough. I will raise them Have several pair on eegs now and was getting ready to cut off the pairs. So I will go this round for you to get you some extra birds. DO you band your birds I would suggest you do that helps knowing the birds and helps when they get lost. PLUS good for records.


I Keep the birds at Green Country Funeral Home, on the by-pass in Tahlequah. Thank you for your offer. I can pick them up from your if the distance is reasonable. Or however else we can arrange the transfer. 10 birds are plenty. Much apprecition.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad to hear the birds are doing better, that is very kind of you, Robert to give him some of your youngsters. You are getting some special birds, David.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It wonderful you are getting more birds.  
Please. before you bring them to your loft, make sure what ever illness has been taking your birds has been treated and eliminated from the remaining birds. Also, sanitize your loft. It would be so sad for there to be a repeat.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

007david said:


> I Keep the birds at Green Country Funeral Home, on the by-pass in Tahlequah. Thank you for your offer. I can pick them up from your if the distance is reasonable. Or however else we can arrange the transfer. 10 birds are plenty. Much apprecition.


I live about 3 hours from you. I will email you when birds are ready. About 175 miles west of you now days. . I could meet you Or heck I could go to tahlequah for a visit. We will work it out.


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

im glad the meds seem to be working i hope everything goes well from now on.


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*Thank you*

re lee, Thank you. it is apreciated your offer. 

I have been reading some and it appears if what is going on is coccidiosis the adult birds would be ailing as well. They continue to seem healty. I have teated them again for canker. 

Today, 4/16 hatched a Squab... I am hopeful the problem has been handled. re lee, I do want to wait before introducing any birds until this problem has been recified or (  totally wipes me out  ). Neither of these scinereos is a good one. 

About three hours is a long way to travel. Round trip is six hours in a car. at worse, we can meet half way. Unless you have business here or somethin. I would feel bad to have you travel all that way for my cause. We will work it out when the time is right. 

updates on the squab forthcoming. 


Thank you all again. David


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Blessings, David.

It was sad to hear about the little guy not making it. I continued to pray, however, and hope that this horrible time will finally be history for you and the birdies!!!
VERY wise to await the arrival of the new birds from Re lee until you're really sure the coast is clear for them. Blessings to Re lee for being so generous.

Sending pecks and prayers to you and yours!


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

007david said:


> re lee, Thank you. it is apreciated your offer.
> 
> I have been reading some and it appears if what is going on is coccidiosis the adult birds would be ailing as well. They continue to seem healty. I have teated them again for canker.
> 
> ...


Careful David just because the adult birds seem fine they could still past the cocci on to the young ones, in fact that is what happens a lot of the time, everything looks great the young ones start growing then BAM at 2 weeks of age you notice sick youngsters so don't be too quick to rule this out as yet, hoping and praying all goes well !


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

david,

update? everything still golden?
hope so,

E..


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*update*

The squab of 4/16 looks good today - 4/19. It wabbles like it should. 

DEEJAY, thank you. I will continue to be mindful of Coccidiosis. As you can imagine I hope I am through this crisis. 

More in a day or two. Thank you agian to re lee. 

David


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*Eric*

Eric, thank you for keeping up with this "saga". 

David


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## eric98223 (Aug 4, 2007)

i always hate coming home to a babie that doesent make it. it happens sometimes . i have 8 young in the loft as of this morning and i can not imagine what i would do if i started losing them all.. im with you all the way.
E..


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

007david said:


> The squab of 4/16 looks good today - 4/19. It wabbles like it should.
> 
> DEEJAY, thank you. I will continue to be mindful of Coccidiosis. As you can imagine I hope I am through this crisis.
> 
> ...


Good to here the young are doing better for now. Also have eggs hatching now for your young birds. So if things are right in you loft as you want there will be young birds ready for you by the end of may Or earlyer.


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## CHRISTIN RN (Sep 2, 2007)

Glad to hear that all is going well!
Love to see some baby pics!


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## 007david (Mar 15, 2008)

*lookin good*

The young one of 4/16 is doing great - so far -, today is 4/28. Looks really good, healthy, fat. beginning to stand etc .... Thanks for keeping up. David


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## RoundAbout (Apr 24, 2005)

I've been following the saga too and glad the baby is ok so far. I lost a baby this spring when it was all feathered and I was afraid, but my other three babies are doing great. One was walking around on the coop floor today. Do you all try to help them learn to drink? I dipped his beak in the water, hoping he'd get the idea.


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