# please help!



## litos (May 14, 2008)

Hello,

My name is Lit and i'm 29 and i live with my dog in a small house with a big back yard in Israel, not far from Tel Aviv. 

last Wenesday my sister's dog was here and she found a pigeon in my back yard and brough it to us in her mouth. the pigeon has no fethers on her back and has no tail, but there is no wond or blood on it. i took it in and gave it water and some bird food. it ate and drank, and i though its just a metter of time until new feathers will grow and my pigeon will fly away, but today i noticed that its leg is wrong - maybe broken... 

how can i help this poor pigeon? could a broken leg heal? will new fethers grow? will it be able to fly again? if not - do you think i should take it to the vet so he will put her down? i know that if ill put the pigeon in the yard, Cats, dogs and ravens will finish it in no-time... 

please help me out!
Lit.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is there any way you can post a picture of the leg?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's possible that you have a nestling with a "splayed leg". Take a look at this thread and follow some of the links because they have pictures of the condition:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15149

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can go to this webpage and study the skeletal drawings:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

It might help you understand more what's wrong and how better to describe what you're seeing.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and thank you for helping this needy bird.

Can you show us a picture of the bird and the leg, perhaps we can help determine where the break is? Are there any other injuries?

The pigeon doesn't have to be put down just because it has a broken leg, it can be fixed.

The feathers on the back and tail will grow back in about 8 weeks. It sounds like the bird was attacked by a hawk.


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*pictures*

Thanks everyone for the fast reply. its 3 am here, but i went outside and took some pics for you. the one of the legs is a bit blury, but its the right leg that is wrong. i hope this will help and you will have practical guidlines for me.

Lit.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, well, go study those skeletal drawings and then feel both legs, comparing the good one to the bad one and see what you find out. It'd probably be better if you brought him inside.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can read this thread, the descriptions therein and look at the pictures of splinting techniques:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=108641

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*i will.*

its on the garden-shed, protected.
i will try to feel more tomorrow, but today i can say for sure that its phalanges (fingers) are not really connected to the Tarsometatarsus bone. especially the back finger, that is just "hanging there".


as for the rest of the bones- ill have to ceck in the mornning. 

ps - i allso notice that the droppings are very wet and messy. you can se in the first pic. is that normal? what to do?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, normally I'd say that you'd need to get the bird on some medicines. He kinda' has a look about him that says that he's been sick for awhile. For instance, if you look at the base of the top of his beak, it's not bright white. They often get that way when they're sick with some things (you're safe). We'd kinda' want to keep him very warm, plenty of clean water and get some good food in him. I can't tell you whether he's got worms, coccidiosis, canker, a bacterial infection or what. Given safety, warmth, good food and time, you'd be surprised what they can recover from. 

Do you have or can acquire medicines easily?

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*well,*

i dont know much about pigeons, but i think Israeli wild pigeons's beaks are not white at all... but i could be wrong. 

what kind of medication could help? i have some antibiotics i got for my chicken ( its called resprim and is actually 200mg sulphamethoxazole and 40mg trimethoprime) and i have a small seringe.... could that help?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, but we have to figure out a dosage. The one you've mentioned is in a family of Trimethoprim/Sulfas. It's a very good antibiotic for them. Can you give more details about the exact packaging of the drug--does it say anything on the bottle?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, got this:

"each 5 mL of Resprim
Suspension contains 40 mg of
trimethoprim and 200 mg of
sulfamethoxazole."

...from here:

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/afcrespr/$File/afcrespr.pdf

We'll have you a dose in a few minutes.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*thats it!*

that's exectly it. its a new bottle. i have a small seringe that can mesure 0.1ml. please explain also how and where to put it in the pigeon's mouth. im afraid i'd chock it...

(you are great. thank you so much!)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have any idea what this bird weighs in grams? Got a scale?

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*i will check tomorrow*

i could check tomorrow in my lab. 
can i email you tomorrow?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The dosage for a Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxasole blend is 60 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily. So, you're probably looking at a bird that weighs between 250 and 350 grams.

For a 250 gram bird, you'd be looking at giving him 0.3 milliliters, and for a 350 gram bird, you'd be looking at 0.4 milliliters. Both of those dosages are given twice a day, too. All you need to do is hold his beak open and ooze it in with his head tilted back. You can actually insert the syringe in straight inline with his upper beak and it will go in. You're just trying to make sure that you don't get any in his airway but even that isn't as bad as it sounds--medicines won't cause aspiration pneumonia. He'd be more like to cough some of it out and then you'd have to give him some more.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lab? You've got access to equipment? Microscope?

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Could it be a youngster (the not - white ceres)?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure, just can't be for certain. Given the other damage, it's a guess. Sometimes, it's better to err to the worst case scenario.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

yes Pidgey, 

I do molecular Biology research, so i have excess to most of Lab equipment. including Microscope (connected to a digital camera....) i do a lot of Histology, but i work with plants... what are you thinking of? what would be interesting (and helpful) to look at?

lit.


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*i'm sory if i put on too many posts*

but i really want to save this poor bird... so here are 2 more pictures (much better ones!) of the leg that is, so i think, broken.

oh, and i just checked - its 200gr. so should i give it 0.25ml twice a day?
for how long?

and one more thing. can i put Carbaryl 20% on it to get reed of its fleas? how much (and how) to treat that?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

200 grams sounds pretty light so this little fellow needs to eat and heal. Yes, I'd go with that dosing for that drug. 

Those toes don't look broken--that's how they usually hang on a limp foot due to an injury that's much higher on the leg. You're probably going to have to feel your way up into the feathers.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

can i also put Carbaryl 20% on it to get reed of its fleas? how much (and how) to treat that?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That sounds a bit strong at the moment. Yes, some folks use Sevin dust to treat their birds for external parasites, which is one version of what you're talking about. I'm usually only inclined to do that on a healthy bird and I'm a little worried about this fellow's weight and general health for the moment. That said, I'd put that part of the treatment off for awhile or I'd use very little of that stuff (~1/4 cc).

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

At 200g, I'm even more inclined to think this is a youngster. What sort of sounds does it make at you? Squeaks, or growls?


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

nothing at all...


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*another advice needed*

Well, i just gave my pigeon its first dosge of antibiotics. i was trying to hold its body still with one hand, open her beek with the other, and then another hand was needed to put the seringe in there.... then i manage to hold the pigeon and open its beek with one hand, and push the seringe with the other, but i thought i should give it slowly, and then it slipped out befor it took the whole thing. it was a stressful event for both of us. 

eventually i came up with the idea to wrap a cloth around it body, so the only thing free to move is the head (like with a newborn baby)- and then i dont need to hold its body and it doesnt try to flap its wings... and i allso realized that 0.25ml is very little and i can push it all in there at once, so i think next time will be much easier and faster.

i allso tried to feel the leg, but failed to find were it is broken. today it was standing on the "broken leg" for afew seconds (till now it was standing on one lag or sitting), but maybe it was just becuase it was so stressed... i hope i dont cause more damage.

i was reading some of this amazing and helpfull forum, and came to realize my pigeion is totally wild. its not curious and not friendly, it doesn't eat when im around, and actually, when i'm there- its trying to hide or escape and harm itself....  so i guess i should have the minimum touch with it. 

so here's my plan, and please tell me if you think its a bad one:
1/ i will keep my pigeon in laundry basket in the garden shed. is quite and protected and a bit dark in there. and the wether is warm outside (about 20 c. degrees at night) 
2/ once a day i will change the newpaper, water and food, i think ill do it at night-time, when the pigeon is more calm / sleepy.
3/ twice a day i will give it the antibiotics, using the cloth method.
4/ i will put just a little anti-flea powder on the newspapers. 
5/ i will post againg if theres any change in the pigeon's behaviuor.

what should i feed it other then the pigeon food (you can see it in the pictures?)


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We have a member "hilary", who lives in Israel but, in checking several of her posts all the way back to 2002, I could not see where in Israel. She has not posted since 3/12/06 but was pretty active before that date. I didn't see an e-mail address but maybe some of the older members may remember where she is. Perhaps she could put you in contact with a veterinarian.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Litos!

I see you discovered our famous "Burrito" method of confining a pij, the better to dose! Sure helps!!

Welcome to Pigeon Talk! I wish you and your pij the very best and hope all goes well!!

_Shi, Squeaks, Dom & Gimie_


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If a vet is needed, I can ask on another list I'm on that has a member in Israel. I don't think our member, Hilary, is or will be able to assist with this, but I could be wrong. Hilary has been extremely ill for years now and has pretty much given up any and all internet contact. The other person I know does know Hilary and how to get in touch with her, so let me know.

Terry


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

i have some experience with avain vetenerians - since i had a sick chicken senario not so long ago. most of the vets i went to deal mostly with cats and dogs ane where confused when i steped in with a chicken. the only place that was helpfull was the Animal hospital (there is only one in Israel - but its 2 minitus from where i work) - but that was very expensive for me, and i really cant aford it again right now. i allso have acess to medication and lab equipment (and gental hands), so with your kind help i think we'll be ok... of course that if i see that things arent getting better in a while, ill try to find a vet (i know some people in the Vet-school, so i can take it there, maybe for free...)

i know pigeons are strong and i hope that with good care this bird will make it trough. i gave it the antibiotics today and it was much faster and easier!

thanks for caring. its a great help (to both of us)! i couldnt find any practical help on the net! i think that i should prepare a web page in hebrew to how to treat a wonded wild pigeon. thare is absolotly nothing on the net, and i could translate some of the posts in this forum to Hebrew and add a link to here... do you think that would be ok ?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

litos said:


> thanks for caring. its a great help (to both of us)! i couldnt find any practical help on the net! i think that i should prepare a web page in hebrew to how to treat a wonded wild pigeon. thare is absolotly nothing on the net, and i could translate some of the posts in this forum to Hebrew and add a link to here... do you think that would be ok ?


We're happy to help in whatever way we may be able to. I will ask the owners of the Pigeon-Talk site if they would like you to undertake the Hebrew translation of some of our material. Either I or they will let you know, and thank you so much for the offer.

Please do keep us posted on what's happening with your rescued bird.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might want to take a poop sample and run a fecal float. Read this thread for instructions:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10561

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

Today was the 2nd day on antibiotics. i am now a pro, and i think the pigeon is getting more coperative as well. he looks a bit better i think, the poop is a bit more solid than what was going on last week. i will run the fecal float tomorrow at my lab, and will post the pictures here for your examination. 

i will allso try to feel the bones again tomorrow, cause i'm sure somthing is broken there. 

i have 2 more questions: 
1# for how long can i / should i keep the pigeon on the antibiotics? 
2# do you think he can't fly because he lost his tail and some back feathers?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can keep him on that one for a few weeks, actually. I've used it for up to a month on birds with really bad oviduct and abdominal infections.

They can fly without tail feathers but he doesn't need to be doing that until his landing gear's better.

Pidgey


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

He is also missing feathers on his back and the photo seems to show some sort of an abrasion. A possible victim of a predator? Puncture holes?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, he either got his back and tail scraped off in a really weird air accident (something like that) or something got a hold of him and stripped off a bunch of feathers before he got away. It happens. In the second case, he's probably got claw holes punched in him that we can't see but his back is relatively unscathed.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

i can see them! but they look very small and looking good: close wounds, dry, not red, no blood signs at all! - it must have happened a while before we found him...


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

hi hi - i did it. found some interesting things and took some nice pics. 
please take a look:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/small-things/
and say what you think (here or there).

do you think the pigeon is very sick? the poop became very green (could this be because of the antibiotics?), and still very wet.

what should i do next?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I don't see any of the usual suspects in the pictures (Coccidial Oocysts; worm eggs). You don't see bacteria much in fecal floats, that's more for a smear. On that link that I gave you to my microscope thread, there's also a link down the way a bit to Vonda's finchaviary page that tells more about smears. You might try running one of those. Crop swabs are nice for seeing trichomonads (Trichomoniasis; Canker). You probably need to give him some time on the Resprim and see how it goes.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*i did that as well*

i will do a smear as well. i'm not sure i was looking at the right level. its all a very interesting experience for me, since i usually deal with plant tissues... anyways - people in my Lab were quite supprised at the sight of bird poop... and i promised them we are soon to find out what we see in this poop... So do you think the round things i took picture of are not oocytes? what are they? and do you know what the other needle like thingi is?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know on the needle thing but it's an artifact not to worry about. No, the other things aren't oocysts or worm eggs either. Both oocysts and worm eggs have definite shapes with stuff inside that has a very particular look about it and those didn't have that. I always think of deviled eggs as seen from above but you might not be acquainted with that dish.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

Hi Pidgey, i did the smear test but i forgot to put the pictures on my disk-on-key, so i will upload them only tomorrow. i found quite a few unicells that looked to me a little like Paramecium... you'll see it tomorrow, i hope its nothing too bad. 

the other important thing is that i think i may have found the broken bone. theres a swalown area on the Tarsosmetatarsus bone, just below the Calcaneal ridge, but it could allso be the ridge itself...anyway - it looks different from the other leg. i will try to take a good picture for as soon as my camera is back from Jerusalem (i forgot it at my sister's place on the weekend, and i'm hopeless without it...), and hopefully you will be able to guide me about that.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then, I guess you can fixate the tibiotarsus and tarsometatarsus with the wide tape (multiple layers) and some popsickle sticks (like a wooden tongue depressor).

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*smear pictures*

Hi.

My pigeon (i called him Srulik, which is a nick name for "Israel", since we found him on our indepandance day party) - he's looking a bit stronger. his poop is still allmost liquide and very green, but he seems to be more alart when i put him down after giving him the antibiotics, so i think he is somewhat improving.

please look at this thing i found in the smear and let me know what you think about it. its a x100 lens. 

Thanks!
lit.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Worm eggs in smears look a little different than worm eggs in floats. These actually resemble worm eggs more than anything else although the shapes are a little "off". Personally, I'd try to acquire some worming medicine for them but I've no idea what it's like finding wormers in Israel. We have another member from Israel but I don't think I've seen any posts from her in a very long time. You might try checking your saturated salt solution to make sure it really is saturated before you do another float test or two.

Anyhow, if you can find and obtain a wormer, get back to the forum for dosing instructions for pigeons.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

could you give me the name of a wormer to look for? i could get some from the animal hospital, but i have to know what to ask for. is it the same as dog's wormer? is it a liquide? is it given oraly? 

i attach pictures of the back (it does look like some bird tried to eat this poor pigeon) and the leg. i need very spesific instructions as for how to treat the leg. i saw the drowings on your link, but where does the stick goes? and - would the pigeon be able to sit with this tape and stick? 

thanks.
Lit.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Ivermectin, Panacur (which is Fenbendazole and you gotta' be real careful with that one), Oxfendazole, Piperazine, Levamisole. See if you can get one of those.

Well, the beauty of using the wide masking tape (and I have no idea whether you've got that stuff there) is that multiple layers give you stiffness and a stick isn't necessarily needed. There's kind of a funny color up the leg a bit within the feathers that I'd like you to take a closer look at--it's in the bottom left picture. Anyhow, they can heal if you keep them in a towel donut. That's when you roll a towel up from all the edges inward until it makes a nest that they can lay in with a hollow spot for their legs to sit in. If he's not inclined to move around then that can work pretty well, too.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

yeh, i was looking at that.. its a small cut of the skin. i washed it with water and then put some Polidine solotion, and there for - the funny color. 
i trided putting him on the towel - he rather sit on the edge of his food bowel, holding it with his good feet... i think his instinc is the grab something. 

i have some wide masking tape (the bowen one that is used for closing boxes? like this? )

Thanks!
Lit.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The yellow one. However, if it's been too long, it might not matter anymore. How long has it been since you got the bird in the first place? If it has been closer to two weeks then it might not matter anymore.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

we found it on our "Israel Indepandance day BBQ", and that was on May 8th. its 2 weeks today. too late? 
and what do you meen when you say "too late"? will it never stand on that leg again? will it ever fly?


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*good news (i think)*

Srulik looks much stronger. i spent some time with him out in the sun during the weekend. i thought it'll do him good, to see some other birds. beeing indoors for 2 weeks, all alone, can be quite dipressing. 
i have no idea if that was the trigger, or just time and medication, but he looks so much better today! and also make some sounds (to make me leave him alone when i come to give him the antibiotics...)

Today i took him out of his busket and watched him in my empty coop- and he was running around. i suppose the leg is healing well. he still can't / wont fly, but i'm hoping he will, as soon as some new feathers grow. 

i'm still trying to get the wormer (i should have it in 2 days or so). how long do you think i should continue with antibiotics?

here is today's happy picture, Srulik on 2 legs, in the coop!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I meant that it's too late to bother splinting it because it's probably already formed some kind of union.

He's looking a lot better! How long have we been on the antibiotics so far?

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

we started on the 15th. it's been 11 days.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, considering that we were originally giving him the antibiotics prophylactically in case he picked up Pasteurella from the (likely) predator that might have gotten hold of him (if memory serves; goodness knows it's having a devil of a time of late), then you're past the dangerous period and can stop it now.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*More news (and problems?) with Srulik*

Hello my Pigeon-loving friends,
Just a short message to let you all know my feral pigeon in getting better. we stopped the antibiotics, and he is a much more lively (and wild) bird. i try not to interact with him too much, and can't wait to see him fly away! (not because i dont like him, but because i belive that he should (if he can) go back to being "as free as a bird").

The other news is that new feathers are starting to show on his back, and it seems a bit troumatic to his not-fully recovered skin. his back looked really good and healed befor the feathers appear, but now it looks as if the feathers are tearing the skin where the wonds are. i attach a picture. is there anything i can do for him? or is it just a matter of time?

thanks,
Lit.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, that looks okay. Just give him some time and it'll all get covered over.

Pidgey


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*short update with good news*

Hi all,
just wanted to update you about my pigeon.

well, new feathers are gowring all over his back, covering the wonds. the tail was the last to start growing, and my pigeon didn't try flying without it. i was keeping him in my empty chicken house in a small open Laundry basket (that way, it was easyier for me to check on him). a few days ago i came into the chicken house and found him out of the basket - which means he flew out, which is great. i can't wait to send him to freedom. i will keep him in the chicken house a couple of weeks, just untill his tail feathrs are all grown. then i will open the chicken house's door and let him fly away or stay - whatever he chooses to do.

i wanted to thank u again for helping me out. i couldn't do it without you, and i feel this pigeon wouldn't servive without the antibiotics and feeding and mostly - the protection i gave him trough his healing time. 

i allso wanted to say that if anyone from Israel would need help in the future - i will try to help with my (little) experiance - and you can tell them to email me at [email protected].

all the best!
Lit.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Dear Litos,

I can't tell you how wonderful this story has been to read. And, I got to read it all at once, including Saturday's wonderful post, and the photographs, so I didn't have to wait to see the happy result.

What a lucky little guy your pidgie is, to have been found by someone as caring and competent as you. Here I am halfway around the world from you, and I marvel at this story - and how probably, all around the globe, people I'll never meet or hear about are doing things like this, quietly being kind to animals just because they feel compassion. Bless you.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

i second that, i mentioned it in my post when i introduced my self, its amazing that people all over the world can help eachother save those that depend on us so much. well done litos *claps*


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*Hi. it's us again.*

well, Srulik's tail and feathers have grown back now, and he looks very helthy and strong. eats a lot, but i didn't see him fly yet. not even once. not even when my dog approuched him and he was very scared. he tried to escape (i didn't let the dog come close) but didnt menage to fly away. 

is there anything i can do to make him fly? what could be the reason for not flying? could it be just a metter of time? maybe i should practice with him? i shouldn't let it wonder free if it cant fly away from cats and dog... what do you think i should do?

i attach a picture.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I don't know the answer but he looks very healthy - maybe he just doesn't know how!!! Does he hop up on things or always stay on the same level?


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## litos (May 14, 2008)

*well*

he has no troble jumping up to his branch...but its only about 20cm off the ground.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It certainly doesn't look like anything's wrong in the pictures. You might try getting him standing on your hand in the house and see if he will fly down to the couch, your bed or something like that, even if you have to give a slight toss up over your bed so that he won't have far to fall if there's a real problem. Another thing you can check is whether he can move his wings through the full range of motion. What you do is hold him by the body from below in one hand and pull one wing out to extension with the other. It also needs to be able to roll upward over the back. In doing that, you're really checking to make sure that they both work the same amount and just as easily. If one seems particularly stiff then that can be a real problem. They can't fly if they can't get their wings up almost vertical over their backs.

He really looks a lot better, though.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well done, Litos! Your pij sure looks soooo much better!! 

Hopefully, he will be able to fly. Of course, maybe he decided that he has the good life now and doesn't want you to know that he can really fly, but is just fakin'...

Did you ever worm him?

Wishing him all the best

Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

Is it possible to add some higher branches, so he will have to fly to get to them. if he lets you hold him, you could try letting him perch on your hand and then quickly moving your hand down, so he takes flight. 

He looks so much better now you did a really good job
Cheers

The other thing i wanted to say, is does he have to go back to the wild??? i mean if he is happy, and you are happy to cater for him, then is there any real reason he must be turned loose. you could just purchase him a friend, and he could live of the rest of his life relishing the life of a domestic pigeon, as they are domestic pigeons after all.


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