# Found a young pigeon, would appreciate tips :)



## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi there,

Just joined today cos my boyfriend and I just brought home a young pigeon on the side of a busy sidewalk and main road this afternoon. Had been there for 3 days and was looking increasingly miserable to us. From what we've read up, we admit we may have unintentionally taken a fledgling which might have been cared for by adults after all (since it lasted 3 days)...but think it may be too late to return it to the spot, so would appreciate any more tips from you guys. 

Here's what we've done so far:
- put it in a dark box with a small hole at the top for a bit of light
- put a towel inside to keep it warm
- dish of quinoa and soggy shreds of bread
- 1.5 inch-deep bowl of water
- force-fed it 25 warm soaked peas

Attached 3 photos of him so that maybe someone could give us some details about him? Like age or condition or...anything else that may be helpful! We're new to this whole thing, and just couldn't leave a baby animal to die of exposure, so any extra help and tips would be appreciated! 
God I hope it's not carrying anything...


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Oh, and he can't fly yet. We checked, he's still bald under the wings.
We're located in Melbourne, Australia, and it's been getting really cold the past few days and he's one tough bird to be out there 3 days on a busy street and right beside a construction site!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You certainly saved his/her life. Do not worry, a Pigeon cannot pass illness to humans or other mammals. If you have other birds in the house, keep the Pigeon is a separate room.

She looks pretty healthy actually. Definitely a baby, definitely got displaced from the nest because no baby is supposed to be on the ground at that age.

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

Take a look there to determine age...I'd say 2 weeks old, tops, maybe a few days shy.

Now, the thing I wonder is....were the parents still tending him/her ? Because oftentimes even after the baby falls (or is pushed out, sometimes) the parents will continue to tend to him and feed. This is a very precarious situation in and of itself because, the ground is a dangerous place....people generally are cruel to Pigeons....and so on, and so on.....so the likelihood of a baby being able to actually be brought-up and fledged from the ground...is near nil.

When you first picked her up, did her crop look or feel full (the crop is the pre-stomach...below the 'chin' and above the breast/chest. It holds the food there after swallowed, and begins to digest it as it passes into the digestive system).

Nice save. Thanks for caring !


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*FOOD:*

I doubt she/he is old enough to eat on her own. 
So the peas were good. You can also use corn kernels.

Very simple feeding method (you seem to have figured it out already, though):

Run the peas and corn under hot tap water until they defrost, but do not get mushy (test the insides of the morsels to make sure they aren't still frozen). Let them cool to lukewarm.
Wrap the baby in a towel with his.her head sticking out and cradle him in one arm. Using your fingers, gently pry the beak open and 'pop' in one pea or corn kernel, towards the back of the throat, and close the beak. She should swallow immediately.
Feed about 8-10 morsels/feeding. 4 feedings a day, 3-4 hours apart. That will give her 30-40 pieces/day to sart. As the days go on and he gets bigger, you up the # to 12-17/feeding (but this will not be for another 5 days or so), so he's getting around 45-55 pieces/day.

IF she starts shaking her head once the veggie is popped in, open the beak and dislodge it. This usually will not happen...but if it does, nothing to panic about...just get it out.

Great thing about the veggie method is it puts on weight and hydrates simultaneously.

In the meantime, leave some seed in a dish in her box....and over the days work on him eating it by pecking your fingers at the seed and seeing if he copies you. You can also pop some seed in the front of his mouth during feeding, once he's maybe 20 days old or do....just to acclimate him to the feel of the seed and get him to realize it's food.

Do the same with water. Put a shallow dish in the box (although he'll probably walk thru it all the time and spill it)...and once in a while dip his beak in the water by holding his head, gently. After a while, they catch on.

We can talk about the proper re-release method ("Soft Release") later on.....if 2 weeks old, you cannot release until 8 weeks old....so, your pal will be around for a while....


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Lastly...whew...red flags:

1) lethargy, fluffed up often, closed or sleepy eyes often

2) change in poops (they become very watery or start showing bright green)

3) Discharge from ceres (nostrils) or sneezing often

4) Signs of white or yellow nodules or growths in the mouth or throat (this is Canker and is easy to treat with OTC meds...but if you notice this, stop feeding solid foods ASAP)

5) Loss of weight despite eating well....


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Looks like a healthy fellow apart for some muffled feathers. Might have been getting fed as it does not look that weak.

You and your partner did a good job by bringing the poor thing in, a non-flying pigeon on a side walk is an open invitation to predators  Good luck


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

VanJo said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Just joined today cos my boyfriend and I just brought home a young pigeon on the side of a busy sidewalk and main road this afternoon. Had been there for 3 days and was looking increasingly miserable to us. From what we've read up, we admit we may have unintentionally taken a fledgling which might have been cared for by adults after all (since it lasted 3 days)...but think it may be too late to return it to the spot, so would appreciate any more tips from you guys.
> 
> ...



Tis a very cute baby and it's a good thing you came to the rescue.
A few tips to help you out...

It would be best to put him in a cat kennel or put a screen over the box...the reason being, if the baby is in the dark, he will never learn to eat on his own because pigeons don't see well in the dark ...he will think it's night time.

When it is dark, do remove the water as many a young bird has drowned, during the night, in just a little bit of water.

Here are the feeding instructions I use for baby pigeon his age. As the baby is still growing...he will need 30-50 peas each feeding and about 3-4 times each day....

You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. 
You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. 
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. The next step… seeds. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it lumpy and squishy.


Finally, there is an avian vet in Melbourne that will evaluate the bird if the need arises. He has told me via phone conversation that he cannot accept the bird but will treat any sick bird but it must remain in the finder's care during treatment. Also, you may be asked to pay for any medications.

If you do go...tell him Charis from Oregon sent you.

Melbourne Veterinary Clinic
Colin Walker, DVM
1 George St.Scoresby,
Victoria 3179, Australia
+61 3 9764 9000


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for the help. Been reading a lot of the old/archived threads too, they were of much help. My boyfriend who has a morbid sense of humour decided to name him Dinner. Well, updates on our new baby... *maternal instincts activated*

Dinner looks a lot more energetic. We let him out of the box most of the day and he walks around the apartment quite a bit, but mostly hops on top of the suitcase that we had lying around on the floor and just roosts there for hours at a time. (Think it's a good idea to leave him outside the box or better to keep him inside most of the time?)

He's been pecking at rice grains we left on the floor now, and preening and stretching his wings, which we think are good signs. Poop recently became bright green, long, and very watery, but maybe it's cos of the 40 juicy peas per feeding 4 times a day?

Still kindda terrified of us, which I guess is good since we do intend to release him. 

He's often pretty fluffed up (which I read above is a red flag?) but not really when he's standing up. Just thought it was worth mentioning. And the apartment's well heated so doubt he's cold? Maybe...

If something does come up, we sure will make use of the clinic that was recommended to us by Charis  Any more advice would be appreciated. 

Thanks a lot again guys!
Van and John


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Van & John,
Thank you for saving this life. Am I the only one who see's a bald-spot on it's front? ~_^... Personally I think it's too old for hand feeding...I suggest letting it try to eat the rice grains on it's own...you could always hand feed it a bit to make sure it's not malnourished. Other members have poured lots of advice, I hope they are of help to you. Wish you good luck with Dinner [LMAO], peace,
YaSin


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Ok guys guys guys, so apparently now he can fly a bit. Hop-flew from the floor to the chair and onto the table, and when we tried to get him off, he surprised us by flying from the table to the couch - a journey of about...3 metres? Still kindda featherless under the wings, so don't think he's ready for sustained flight yet.

But here's the thing that's gotten us scared: he's kindda refusing to eat even though his crop is empty. And he's chirping a lot. He started his vocalizations when we were hand-feeding him, but this time he's just not co-operating. Struggling an exceptional lot (shaking his head away), started to nip a little bit at our fingers, and refuses to open his mouth. Tried putting the peas and rolled oats and rice grains on the floor but he's not pecking either. Thing is, he moves away from them, then looks around at the floor like he's trying to find food. 

And he's fluffing up his feathers a lot now. Poop's more solid now though.
He's stopped chirping since I left him alone. But still not eating.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Its was not a pet pigeon so its natural to show aggression 

Leave a bowl of seed and a bowl of water for him to try out, yet you will have to force feed him for the time being. Keeping the bird on a towel and gently fold and holding him around with the towel while feeding might help. You can hold the back of the head with two fingers and gently dip his face upto the beak in the bowl of water, he should eventually understand the game 

Fluffy feathers are not good sign but solid poops are good sign, may be you can post a couple of pictures of the poop.


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

We cleaned up the most recent poop, but we'll post some pictures when he's done the next one. Yeah we've always wrapped him in a towel when feeding, but this time he struggles his head a lot and his chirping gets louder and more frantic, which honestly frightens us more >.< So should we just ignore there screeching (starting to sound like that to us) and force his beak open? Cos he's really putting up one tough fight now. We left some rice and rolled oats on a towel and he's pecking at them now, a bit here and there...

Also, what sickness would fluffing of feathers imply? Also, he's twitching his tail up and down occasionally. I've read that doing that regularly was another red flag. He's not lethargic and not closing his eyes though.


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

This is how he's looking now, btw.


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Ok, he's looking worse, been standing in that same spot and position the past 15 mins, and eyes are closing.










What should we do while we wait for the vets to open tomorrow? It's midnight here. 
And we're worried force-feeding him will stress him out more. Should we still feed him and then put him back in his box?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Make sure his crop is emptying before you feed him. If it isn't empty, he may not be hungry. I'm sorry if you have already answered this, but is he drinking?


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

No worries, not answered that yet. He drank a little bit on his own half hour ago. Last feeding was 4 hours ago, he didn't finish the usual 40 peas (just 23 thereabout). Crop feels quite empty now, been that way about 2 hours.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm glad he's drinking. If he really doesn't want it, it isn't going to hurt him to go without it tonight. I'd make sure he's in a warm place and put him to bed for the night. Try again in the morning. He may be hungry then.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

VanJo said:


> Ok, he's looking worse, been standing in that same spot and position the past 15 mins, and eyes are closing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Vanjo,
Hunched back and lowered tail (like in this picture) is usually a sign of an intestinal upset.- could be worms.
Just read this post quick, so don't know if you checked the inside of his mouth for any yellow lesions (canker). Glad your going to see a vet. He could probably use a 'gentle' worming dose (because he's very young). 
In the mean time, I would keep him on a heating pad (set on low with a towel over it), and put a dash of salt and sugar in his water, and keep trying to get him to eat. You can sprinkle some seed on the floor and play with it with your fingers to encourage him to eat on his own too. Let us know how you make out at the vets


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Hey guys,

He was looking a little better this morning but we took him to the animal hospital anyway. He was chirping a lot and really active still. Vet told us he was rather thin and to leave him with them for the day and pick him up in the evening. So we did.

We called them up just now to check on him, and now we were told that according to Australian law, he's a non-native feral animal so it's illegal to keep him and they won't return him to us, and that they'll probably euthanize him, as would Wildlife Victoria :'(

So we called the local RSPCA and they said they'd do the same thing, cos he's feral. "For all creatures great and small"...as long as we like them. 
Sadly there's nothing more we can do. We'd become really fond of him... At least the vet fed him this morning. Gonna miss that great companionship... 

Thanks for all your help guys, really appreciated it.
Van and John


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vanjo, thanks for trying your best for this little, guy, I am sorry this little one is going to be put to sleep. In his photos he did not look too bad to me.

The sad part is that we have a member from Australia, Bella F, who has warned us here at Pigeon-Talk, very clearly, this is what would happen if a feral was taken to a vets in Australia without very clear instructions to make sure to say the bird is a pet and not to leave it or turn it over to them with out them acknowledging this. I am sorry these warnings were not clearly given to you.

Thanks again for trying for him,

Karyn


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Could that be made a sticky for other Australians in our situation?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, it should be, but some of the people involved in helping in this thread I know were certainly aware of this. I have no idea why they where not crystal clear with you about this.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Yes, it should be, *but some of the people involved in helping in this thread I know were certainly aware of this. I have no idea why they where not crystal clear with you about this.*
> 
> Karyn


 That could be because they never said that they were going to take the bird to an animal hospital. If they had said that before doing it, then they probably would have been warned. Charis gave information about Colin Walker. She also said that the bird would have to remain in their care during treatment, and that the clinic could not take him in. That they couldn't leave the bird there. Had something been said BEFORE the poor thing was taken to the vet, then the people that knew, I'm sure, would have warned them.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Charis said:


> Finally, there is an avian vet in Melbourne that will evaluate the bird if the need arises. *He has told me via phone conversation that he cannot accept the bird *but will treat any sick bird but it must remain in the finder's care during treatment. Also, you may be asked to pay for any medications.
> 
> If you do go...tell him Charis from Oregon sent you.
> 
> ...


Well, it's my personal opinion that the reason that he could not accept the bird should have been very clearly explained. That any vet in Australia accepting a non-native species bird, a feral pigeon being one of these, would have no choice, and be obligated by law, to euthanize the bird.

Here is the thread where this issue was raised in, you made posts to it as well: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/meds-for-non-americans-48630.html



VanJo said:


> Could that be made a sticky for other Australians in our situation?


You have been here long enough to know people don't always do what we tell them to do. Vanjo did not have a clue this would be the fate of this bird if she went unprepared to a vet. Even if she did go to Colin Walker, again in my opinion, what happens to rock pigeons that are not pets, in Australia, should have been clearly spelled out for Vanjo.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Yes, it should be, but some of the people involved in helping in this thread I know were certainly aware of this. I have no idea why they where not crystal clear with you about this.
> 
> Karyn


OMG!!! I had NO idea that's what they did in Australia! That's horrible! IF I had known that, I would NEVER have said "I'm glad your taking him to a vet'!!!! And I would have warned her! I usually DON"T suggest to people to take pigeons to vets.....because working for a vet and other vets in the past, I know how most of them feel about treating pigeons 
Did she go to the one Charis suggested?
I am soooo sorry this happened!


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## VanJo (Mar 4, 2011)

Didn't go to the suggested one cos we looked it up and found that it's really really far out and we can't drive, and neither do we know anyone who does (we're in the overseas student community). So we looked for one in the city and found this hospital did look at birds too, so we thought we'd try there, plus it was just opposite our university. It's an honest mistake, so to avoid any future incidences like that, I'd say, putting up a sticky informing people of what they do to feral pigeons if found in Australia would be the next best thing to do..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Well, it's my personal opinion that the reason that he could not accept the bird should have been very clearly explained. That any vet in Australia accepting a non-native species bird, a feral pigeon being one of these, would have no choice, and be obligated by law, to euthanize the bird.
> 
> Here is the thread where this issue was raised in, you made posts to it as well: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/meds-for-non-americans-48630.html
> 
> ...


Dobato, She was clear in that they would have to keep the bird in their care. If the vet hospital made them believe that they could pick the bird up later, and then wouldn't let them, then that is on them. Not on the people here.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

It's simple for me..........I will NEVER suggest anyone in Australia to take a pigeon to a vet......because they will euthanize it


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> It's simple for me..........I will NEVER suggest anyone in Australia to take a pigeon to a vet......because they will euthanize it


No they won't. If you go to a vet that treats birds, and if you say it's a pet, and you keep the bird, they will treat them, and give you the meds you need. That's if they will even treat pigeons.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> No they won't. If you go to a vet that treats birds, and if you say it's a pet, and you keep the bird, they will treat them, and give you the meds you need. That's if they will even treat pigeons.


And how are we suppose to know that? After what happened...I wouldn't trust them. And she wasn't told that she had to say that it was a 'pet'.....I didn't know that either!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> And how are we suppose to know that? After what happened...I wouldn't trust them. And she wasn't told that she had to say that it was a 'pet'.....I didn't know that either!


For crying out loud, you have to say it's a pet here often enough in order to have them treat a pigeon. You don't have to trust them. Just don't leave the bird with them, and there's nothing to worry about.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> For crying out loud,* you have to say it's a pet here often enough in order to have them treat a pigeon*. You don't have to trust them. Just don't leave the bird with them, and there's nothing to worry about.


Not always, and it's not mandatory! Most of the vets here will just say 'sorry we don't treat pigeons'. I've never heard of a vet taking in a bird and refusing to give it back to the person. That's outrageous!
I would not recommend any vet in Australia if that's what they do......period!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> *Not always, and it's not mandatory! Most of the vets here will just say 'sorry we don't treat pigeons'.* I've never heard of a vet taking in a bird and refusing to give it back to the person. That's outrageous!
> I would not recommend any vet in Australia if that's what they do......period!



Waynette, I didn't say _always,_ and it's not that they say they don't treat pigeons. They will ask if it is a pet bird or a feral bird. They often will treat pet pigeons, but not feral, or "wild" pigeons. I know this, because I helped Charis with her resource list, and called around to many different avian vets.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That does happen over here. Here is a thread about a vet taking a bird that they refused to return to the person, until one of our members intervened, and saved the day.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/pigeon-laws-24649.html


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Dobato, *She was clear in that they would have to keep the bird in their care. *If the vet hospital made them believe that they could pick the bird up later, and then wouldn't let them, then that is on them. Not on the people here.


Why was Vanjo not clearly told exactly WHY she would have to keep the bird in her care, that they euthanize rock pigeons that are not claimed, or actually are, pets once surrendered. Caregivers come here, because simply put, we know things they don't. One of things known was that rock pigeons are killed in Australia if the caregiver does not present a carefully scripted story on how the bird being taken in is a pet. You are right, and I agree, it is not on the people here, but it certainly is on the people in this thread that knew and were not crystal clear about things, and were making ambiguous statements like the bird must stay in the caregiver's care. As when making this statement there was a crucial reason why for doing so and the caregiver should have been afforded the opportunity to learn the critical reason the why, behind this statement. If she knew the why, does anyone believe Vanjo would have still done things the way she did?

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This is what I was told directly by Colin Walker. In my post about contacting him if the need arose, I paraphrased. 

Dr Walker's email...

*Thanks for your email. It was nice speaking to you the other day. It can be difficult for vets in Australia when they are presented with feral pigeons. Australia is still a relatively new country. With European colonization a number of species were introduced. These have displaced many Australian indigenous species. In Australia it is illegal to treat with a view to release any feral animal. This includes foxes, rabbits, feral cats, cane toads, sparrows, black birds and also non-native pigeons. We certainly however have no problem with providing veterinary care for sick or injured feral birds if people intend keeping them as a pet. Like most veterinarians we make no charge for veterinary service in this situation but ask people to contribute to the cost of medication etc.*


I am no expert on Australian law. 
I hope this clears it up for you, Dobato.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Listen up folks...this is all very sad...it really makes me angry. BUT...go back and read the posts ; and stop misdirecting your own anger and shock at others.

The vet hospital tricked VanJo into leaving the baby there...period. Told 'em straight out to leave it and come get him/her later...knowing damn well it was a Feral and knowing damn well what they were going to do to her.

This is silliness to point fingers at anyone else but that reprehensible vet. That was a dirty and evil thing to do, period.

If you look at Charis' post, it very clearly states that the vet she was referring to advised that a Feral must remain in the keeper's care during exam/check. There is no other way to (mis)interpret that post. This is even somewhat moot since it was a different facility they took the Pigeon to, anyway.

This is the sorta thing which Wildcare near me does....they will urge you to bring in the Pigeon/animal but evade questions about their killing policy until they have secured the bird from you. As I said...nothing less than reprehensible.

This vet Vanjo went to is 10x worse, because they _outright lied_ that Van could come back later to get the Pigeon. There are several words for that...and UNETHICAL is just one of them.....

....here's an interesting Q regarding the laws over there: is it illegal for an individual (just a regular ol' person) to rescue and temporarily care for/keep an ill Feral ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jaye, I beg to differ, my anger is not misdirected and it stems from people in this thread, who were well informed about the issues with rescuing ferals in Australia, who let the caregiver, and more importantly, this little one down, and I will say this once again, by not being fully clear with knowledge they had, that the caregiver didn't, about what just could possibly happen to this bird if things were not done carefully because of the laws of the country.

You don't know the circumstances, nor do I, of what took place with setting an appointment to bring this baby in. Perhaps the receptionist didn't lie and was unaware of the law and once this baby was left the vet informed her of what now had to take place, or perhaps Vanjo was conned right from the git-go, we just don't know. However, what we do know if that Vanjo was sadly unaware of the terrible consequences of doing what she did would be.

If someone is offering help in a thread and suggests, or even if the caregiver says they want to, take a feral to a vet, there should be very clear unambiguous instructions given immediately on just what needs to be said with regard to the bird being a pet and the reasons for doing so. That bringing in a rock pigeon, that is not claimed as a pet, may be regarded as a surrender and you may not get the bird back. This is even more true for Australia, where they have extremely strict rules and laws regarding this.

It was taken for granted that this caregiver was going to follow instructions so there was no need to fill her in on all of those silly fine details, like these guys are marked for death in your country, so be very careful. People knew and Vanjo should have as well, in order to be able to make fully informed decisions. Period, end of story.



Charis said:


> I am no expert on Australian law.
> I hope this clears it up for you, Dobato.


No one is asking you to be, but you certainly knew they laws regarding rock pigeons, that were not pets, in Australia. In the link below, which you posted to, and coincidentally an earlier thread by Bella_F on this matter, information was given regarding laws in Australia and how they pertain to feral rock pigeons:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/its-illegal-to-re-release-rescued-pigeons-in-oz-34809.html

And in a post from you in Bella_F's other thread showing you certainly were aware of the consequences and what happens to feral rock pigeons in this country.



Charis said:


> Ah Bella...I didn't speak to him in a way that would put him on the spot.
> 
> *If one drops a pigeon off at a clinic or rescue, in Australia, it seems you can expect the pigeon be euthanised.* If you take the pigeon to the vet and accept responsibility financially and do not involve the clinic in release plans, the pigeon will be treated.
> Other folks have done just that, accepted responsibility and had no problems.
> ...


Your darn right I am angry, as this was a needless death, and I am pointing fingers, because fingers need to be pointed to help ensure that this never happens again, as a result critical information not clearly being disclosed.

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dobato, don't you think you are being a bit ridiculous and over reactive? Your anger is uncalled for. Charis came in with information. She was good enough to do that. You cannot know everything that another person is going to do. Had the poster said that she was going to take the bird to a vet and leave him, then she would have been told, if someone who knew saw what she had posted. If the person goes off in another direction and does something else, then that is on them, not on the person who offered the advice. It was good advice. It wasn't followed. So stop trying to put the blame on Charis for trying to help. Get down off your high horse and stop pointing fingers and shooting at people who are only trying to help. It is too bad that it worked out the way it did, but again, some responsibility needs to lie with the person who is living in the country to learn what the laws are there. Sad that it happened, and a learning experience, but your anger is really out of line. And not helping anything. I think most would feel sad or disappointed at the outcome. But to be feeling so much anger and rage seems a bit out of place here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

If you go back to my first post, it was not angry at all but, did contain a bit of barb to remind people we should be doing better and of the consequences of not being clear. I also wanted to let the caregiver know she did nothing wrong, she just did not have all the facts she should have. Since then all I have heard many times is that it's the caregivers fault and it's the vet's fault, and that lies were told or else this would not have happen and so on, and I reacted to this. The truth is this was poorly handled and a bird is now dead as a result. Anger, yes (mostly for blaming the caregiver), disappointment, yes, rage, no. I have made my thoughts crystal clear on all of this and you will not hear any more about this from me.

Karyn


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