# Pigeon Quarantine?



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Sorry, I have a kind of silly question (another one), I hope someone can answer for me. What constitutes Pigeon quarantine ? Can you have 2 birds in the same room (my room is 3m X 3m), but seperated physically from one another and not sharing food or water? Or would this be too risky?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It all depends on what it is one wishes to have the Quarenteen for.


If as a measure against a New Bird maybe having pre-symptomatic PPMV, or other Virus, Worms, Lice, Mites, Salmonella, Chlamydia, Coccidiosis, then, same room can be alright, ( not ideal, maybe not wise, but 'alright' if done right ) but, with some precautions and protocols.


The idea would be for the Quarenteened Bird to be isolated in such a way as for there being no chance of Seeds or Poops or Dander or Feathers or Water Drops when drinking, being flung, wafted, tossed or kicked out of his Cage...and, ideally, no positions next to his Cage where other free flying Birds would land, peck into it, or stand close.


One can wrap the lower half of a Cage with clear Plastic Film, as a way of preventing most potential ejecta, anyway...no common feed or Water stations within probable radius of possible ejecta, and, have the Cage sitting on something small enough ( if still high or at elbow height and no less, anyway ) for there to be no ledge around it...and, the top of the cage well covered with a folded Towel, so other Birds landing on the top can not poop into that Cage.


A few Weeks anyway, three should be enough...if wishing to be prudent in respect to a possibility of it being a pre-symptomatic PPMV Bird.


Where, also, to be prudent, one would wash one's Hands very well after any contact with the possible pre-symptomatic PPMV Bird, or any Bird with damp nostrils, prior to handling any other Birds or their items, dishes, and so on, of course.


Birds who have conspicuous PPMV signs, same deal, only, then you know!


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps Phil! That's exactly the kind of information I was hoping for.

Another one from my flock is sick; an very big adult, perhaps a male by the size. But he's only 208 grams; he's been sick for a few days now that I've noticed, but sitting on the neighbor's roof fluffed up. Today he came to my yard and I was able to pick him up. I've got him on the Sulfa meds, with canker meds in his water. The only warm place in my house is the room with my little hen, in a Kennel. I am not sure where else to keep him warm. My little hen has free run of the room.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I dunno if I agree with that. My avian vets both say quarantine has to be separate rooms, period. They are VERY insistent upon that.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, Phil have given you a lot of good information I do not have much to add. We really got to get you able to tube feed, as this is the kind of bird who could really benefit from it, 206 grams is a very low weight. Is he eating on his own, please wrap him in a towel and supplement him with some pellets, perhaps popping a teaspoon at a time 3-4 times a day. How soon will you be ready with your rig?

Karyn


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I ordered the vetafarm gauge 12 crop tube and formula on Friday. I think I could use my makeshift tube/syringe with him, but I'm not sure about feeding formula for him. He's a lot easier to handle than the little hen. He's much tamer and his mouth is bigger too. 

Can you think of anything I could feed him for tonight? I haven't seen him eat or drink on his own.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Can you post a photo of your rig? Also, take some of the pellets you have and grid them up into a fine powder as you can, you will need perhaps a few tablespoons full.

Karyn


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

This is large size syringe, with a sterilized silicon tube of 5mm diameter.

Dear Karyn, How should I dilute the powdered crushed pellets?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, good work! Almost ready. I want you to take the bowl you have of crushed pellets and get another next to it. Take two tablespoons and put a little of what is in the bowl into one of the spoons and use the other on top of this to crush the pellets up finer,, just crush and then wiggle the spoons back and forth on top of one another, it need to be ground finer.

You rig looks good, but needs a small adjustment. The edge of the cut end that will be going down into the crop is to too sharp, it needs blunted. To do this get a lit match/lighter and quickly pass the edge over the flame to slightly round the edge over. Here is a tube that this was done to, this is not a feeding tube, but a suction tube, but your edge needs to look like the edge in this link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=477198&postcount=8

If you mess it up, easy to happen as the flaming just takes an instant, cut a bit of the end of the tube off and try again. Post a photo again when through.

Karyn


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I have crushed the pellets into about 2 tablespoons full , and I passed the end of the tube over a gas flame to melt it, the disinfected again. It feels a lot smoother, but I noticed in the diagram, there is also a nick/ hole in the tube?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Karyn,
> 
> I have crushed the pellets into about 2 tablespoons full , and I passed the end of the tube over a gas flame to melt it, the disinfected again. It feels a lot smoother, but I noticed in the diagram, there is also a nick/ hole in the tube?


Ignore the nick/hole, that's why I mentioned that the photo was a suction tube, but the principle for the cut end (the end going down the throat) is the same.

I want you to heat some water, very hot, do not use hot tap water, start with cold tap water and heat in a pot. When hot, add 4 tablespoons of this very hot water, to the crushed up pellets, stir, cover and let sit 15 minutes, then we will adjust this mixture.

In the meantime, two final links on tube feeding, in this first one below read the thread, but the real reason I am posting this link is the You tube video. Ignore most in the video, but what you need to pay close attention to is how he hold and supports the bird in the videos head and uses two fingers, his thumb on one side and his forefinger on the other to grasp and gently pinch/hold open the bird's beak. This how you need to hold the head and keep the beak open with your two same fingers, while you gently lift and extend the neck almost straight up, then slide the tube past your pinching fingers into his mouth and down the throat. There is another post as well with another written description, as mentioned in Phil's post you will have the bird wrapped up for more control.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483708&postcount=53

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483617&postcount=37

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


I need to see some images of the Bird, and of his poops.


We need to evaluate and investigate his condition before feeding.

How is his Crop?

Does it have anything in it?

If so, what does it feel like, and, how much is in there? 


What is he pooping? How many poops in how many hours?


Is his Throat and esophagus clear?

Palpate his Neck...any lumps?



Look for perforation injuries, Pellet Gun entry wounds, might only be a tiny flat scab under the Feathers of his front, sides, undersides...often too flat to feel, must be found by visually and tactile looking at the actual skin under all those Feathers or with most of the Feathers out of the way, to feel it.


Gotta evaluate these things first...


Have you offered tepid rehydration solution, in case he is a little dehydrated?


And, if so, how much has he drank so far?


Phil
Lv


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> This is large size syringe, with a sterilized silicon tube of 5mm diameter.
> 
> Dear Karyn, How should I dilute the powdered crushed pellets?



How soft and pliable is that 'Tube'? 

Just as it is? 

Will it bend much by gravity if held horizontally?


Do you have other like same or different tube material you can make a new one from?


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn and Phil,

So sorry; I was pretty amped to give this a go tonight, but I couldn't get the syringe to suck up the fluid. I mustn't have ground the pellets up enough or something. I added boiled water and used spoons to try to ground them down more, but it still wouldn't work. Anyway my syringe broke and I can't make it suck any more. I will have to pick another one up tomorrow from a Chemist or Vet.

Tonight the little hen is looking great after her canker meds; she flew up on top of my exercise bike to roost, which she only does when she's feeling strong. The other one (the adult) is sitting in a kennel in a nice warm spot, with the sunflower kernels, little seeds, pellets and canker-med water. I think he ate a bit on her own this afternoon ; he had little linseeds sticking out the corner of his mouth.

Thanks so much to you both for helping; I will try again in the morning.

X bella


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Phil, I don't know exactly what to look for (and I discovered today that canker can look me in the face and I can't see it). But the droppings seem to be coming at around 3 an hour or two. They are not as horrible as I would have expected. They have decent form, a bit lighter green in colour, with a white `capsule coating' around the solids. I peered deep into his throat like the vet showed me and I can't see lumps or white bits. But that doesn't mean much as I seem to miss things .

His main symptom of anything is his huge weight loss, and he's been in a bad way for 3 days- I saw him ruffled up and head poked right into his neck on the neighbors roof, but couldn't catch him until today. I was shaking bowl of feed at him for two nights trying to get him to land in my yard, and finally he did. 
I'm just glad he's warm and safe tonight, with a little bit of medication in him. Maybe some nice food too.

X bella


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Far as new Bird...this is not good.

Please see my last two posts on this matter.


Images..

Cogent examination of the outlined details.


There should never be a rush to feed a new sick/injured Bird.


Always, there is examination, evaluations, determinations, an hour or more in an observation cage, generally, first...to then see what there is for poops urates, and, to evaluate those for their cues of hydration/illness.


Examine the inside of the Mouth, Throat, smell their Breath while the Beak is held open...


If he has 'Seeds sticking to his Beak' he may well have an illness making mucous in his mouth...there should not be seeds sticking to his Beak.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks very much Phil,

I peered into his throat last night and I couldn't see dis-coloration. I am about to check on him; he is alive, standing, but that's all I know right now. 

I started him on sulfa meds last night, and hopefully I can give him some drops of Ronivet-S today. Since I don't have syringes right now, I may eye-drop him an electrolyte water solution, or see if i can get him to drink on his own with some encouragement.

I'll get back to you when I have some more news & photos...

Hugs to you Phil!

X bella


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella,



Okay...report back with those images, and, further observations.


Is Throat a nice 'pink'? Purple? Grey? Pale?

Any stringy mucous?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil,

Thanks again for helping me! I just gave him sulfa meds (in bread balls) and 2 ml of water with the canker meds mixed up in it via a dropper. It looks like red cordial. The dropping photo from last night is above. He did a lot of droppings, but stood on them and smeared most of them. They still have form.

I think the seed you can see was flicked there rather than passed through his GI.

There were seed & pellets scattered about on the kennel floor so it looks like he had a peck at them. The water level is down a bit too. But I didn't see him drink and eat with my own eyes. I'm a bit pressed for time today because of full time work so I won't have spare time to observe him properly until a bit later. 

I am not sure about my observation skills regarding his throat, but to me his throat looked pale pinkish grey.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, his dropping(s) look better than I thought they would, a good amount of solids and quite white urates, they have a slight mucus coating to them that most times points to a GI issue, which the Sulfa 3 should deal with quite well. I put up instructions in your other thread for the Ronidazole. Based on what I am seeing, unless you picked him up well hydrated and with a good fill of food, he is eating and drinking at present.

Karyn


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That's encouraging Karyn, Thankyou!


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI Bella, 



May as well allow hium to eat and drink all he likes...it appears his Crop and Digestive system are working alright.


Let's see what the Meds do...


ACV-Water would likely be good to do for his Drinking Water.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Phil!

I sure wish I had a bigger space for him .The kennel he's in is pretty small and I would normally let him roam freely in a large heated tiled-floor room, if I only had one pigeon. He appreciated being let out free for a while to peck seed in another room for a while this afternoon, and I'm happy with his appetite. He's drinking his apple cidar vinegar water, and he's had an oral dose of Ronivet-S that Karyn showed me how to mix up. Those sulfa drugs do seem to be having a positive effect. 

It would be kinda nice if he made it and became little hen's new friend or mate. Being in the same room will let them get to know each other at least. They've both got a lot of weight to put on first though.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


Sounds good...probably if allowed to, they will become pals and have one-another's companionship to whatever measure, to comfort and reassure the otherwise for them, odd and unoccustomed surrounds.

That can mean a lot I think...

Good going!


Phil
Lv


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, good going Bella, I am cautiously optimistic for both of them. With the Ronidazole suspension, make very sure you stir/shake it well before drawing a dose (as you should any med suspension) and keep refrigerated between use.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Some 'Tube' info -


http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX


No 8 French, Silicone, Clear, Pediatric, Urinary, Catheter.


Cut a 'Julianne' Cut 6 inches from the Spigot-end ( which Spigot End, just as it is, fits onto a Plain 'end' Syringe ) .


Lightly Flame-Soften the 'cut' to just slightly melt the otherwise ubrupt edges.


About 1 to 1`-1/2 Inches of the Tube remain outside the Beak, when dispencing Liquids into the Crop.


The Tube itself must be soft.


In cold temperatures, The Catheter section 
'Tube' may be too rigid, and, would need to be briefly swished in Hot Water for a few seconds, immediately prior to use.


When ready for for use, the Tube should bend at least 30 to 45 degrees by Gravity alone if held horizontally.


The Tube should be lubricated with good quality, fresh, sweet tasting Oilive Oil, or, one may also use KY Jelly of a plain kind.


The Tube should slide in nicely and with no sense of drag, with no force whatever, merely by Gravity, and or the Gravity weight of the charged ( and no larger than 10 mL ) Syringe it is attached to, at most.

One actually allows the weight of the appliance to be suspended in the Hand so only some of the Weight is all that is directing the Tube portion down into the esophagus, and, into the lower portion of the Crop.


Small Pigeons or Babys, of course one elects a length which will permit the Tube 'end' to end up where it should.


Having the inch or inch-and-a-half extra length, with average size Adult Pigeons, allows a sort of easy fail safe, where one tends to stop about there anyway, and, one can see easily whether one is about 'there' yet to know when to stop.


The flame softened 'Julianne' cut end, slides easily down the Esophagus and will not catch or abrade as a plain 90 degree cut would.


The Tube prepared in this way may also be Twirled through minute instertial planes of inflamitory debris obturating a Throat, in order to be able to dispense Medicines or Formula into the Crop of a Pigeon who has serious Canker obstructions in the Throat or Neck.


Twirling then allows the end of the Tube to both act as a sort of soft yet effective 'Drill', to 'Drill' through the clevage or meeting planes of inflamitory debris, as well as to reduce the possibility of it being pushed or coaxed inadvertently through to perforate any compromised Tissue of the Esophagus wall ( which of course would be immediatelky disasterous and soon fatal for the Bird, and invisible and unguessed by the operative/care-giver).


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks so much for your advice and comments, Karyn and Phil! 

I think we've got him on the right meds, as he's showing some really big improvements this afternoon. I mean he looked like he was dying when I picked him up yesterday, and the 2 days before when I noticed him very sick it was raining and cold outside and I really ached for him- I didn't fancy his chances either unless I could get to him. I felt that he might die overnight because I'd got to him too late. They often do.

But this afternoon he is active and looks much more alert & determined to escape, lol.

I had some time after work to let him be free in my Kitchen. He really loved this after being trapped in a Kennel for day. The oven is cooking a roast so the kitchen is nice and warm, so I set him down some ACV water and `sick pigeon' seed mix, and a box to hide in if he was scared. He decided to test his flight and he's not doing too badly. He's currently sitting on a ledge that he flew onto; its head height in the kitchen. Its been good for him emotionally, I think. He's been watching us do things that don't involve scaring him, and I think he enjoys his freedom, and the stimulation of watching us go about our feral-primate business.

I am getting a nice feeling about his progress. He might be only 208 grams, but he's a strong & determined guy!


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Very nice...


Some free flight time is alright, but, he would likely elect to perch high somewhere, and or possibly to be stubbnorn about being rounded up, instead of being on his Heating Pad and consereving energy...so, mostly he should be in his Cage or "Warm-House" set up, and, some goof around free fly now and then for a little while.

If it is warm up high there where he was, then, well, I see no reason not to leave him up there if you do not mind!

Warmth is important when they are recovering from illness.

Moralle is also, of course.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil,

I hear you! Its probably a fine art, finding the balance between providing proper care for a bird, which they may not understand, and allowing them to emotionally adjust to what is happening. I personally think the emotional side is important for a wild bird. You can see it in their droppings, if not in their behavior.

Anyway the kitchen will be warm until dinner, and afterwards I'll take him back to his warm kennel to sleep. 

I think its been good for them to have one another. She is looking very well, and I've noticed that when she eats, he feels like eating too. She likes to sometimes stand in a place where she can look at him. Before he came, she would stand in front of the mirror for company. So companionship must mean a lot to them.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes, they will look to eachother in varius ways, including, to implicitly ask for or seek cues about how the opther is regarding the situation.

Generally, in a benign if initially alien situation, such as one's Home, they soon decide all is well, each notes the other is not anxious or worried or scared, and, they pretty well accept the situation...for which food of course, is an important part, just as it is for anyone.

Them seeing us eating, also aids in some ways for them to realize we are not very different really, if larger and odd looking and flightless.

If it is safe to eat without worries of the food being comandeered by someone else...particularly.

Either one, seeing the other eating, will tend to wish to eat also.


Here, various pre-release ones who ared far to WILD to ever touch or catch, build Nests in the middle of a doorway, on the floor, and, I have to step over them in passing by.

They fly perfectly well, but, seeing others who can not fly, making Floor Nests, they elect to do so also, and, merely look up sheepishly as I step over them.


Lol...


They end up regarding one as a sort of incidental co-inhabitant of a place, or, as a sort of odd m,ember of their informal Community, also sometimes...rather than that they recognise per-se, that it is your place or my they are guests in.


----------

