# Help, weird worms...



## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Last night i had another brief attempt to be friends with a rescue feral, have another check to see if any feather growth was evident. While holding him against my chest a little drop of poo got on my shirt, and (Heaven only knows how I noticed this) it contained the tiniest little 'worm.' 

I've only seen roundworms before. This little thing was the size of this: _

I looked at it under a magnifying glass and the microscope and the best I can describe it was it looked like a little flesh colored slug. 

I've been staring at pics on line and haven't found anything to match it, but I'm not having a lot of luck finding pics. 

Could it be a larval worm?

I decided to administer Ivomec even tho I don't know what I'm dealing with. When I had him out to do that, he made another spot of poo on my shirt front and there were TWO of them in that drop. This morning, I found 1 amidst his freshest dropping on his papers. Have not had time to check his poo for eggs or other interesting clues, and did not get a picture of these things - doubt I could, they are so small!

Anybody know what these things likely are??? I'm clueless!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

To the naked eye did the worm look like a piece of rice, and did it try to move away from the poop? If so, it would be the egg sac of a tape worm. Tapeworms are rare in pigeons, but we have seen a coupke of cases on this forum.

Cynthia


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hookworm?*



TheSnipes said:


> Last night i had another brief attempt to be friends with a rescue feral, have another check to see if any feather growth was evident. While holding him against my chest a little drop of poo got on my shirt, and (Heaven only knows how I noticed this) it contained the tiniest little 'worm.'
> 
> I've only seen roundworms before. This little thing was the size of this: _
> 
> ...


Hookworms and hairworms are real small but Ivermectin I'm pretty sure will rid the bird of all of them.

Bill


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

It was beige flesh colored, and moving/squirming. I couldn't detect anything like features, like mouth parts, or anything like that. Just smooth, featureless beige colored 'skin'.

I would not say it looked like rice, at least, it was much smaller than any rice I've ever seen, no longer than this line: _

The one I found on the paper was not in the poop but right next to it, so it might have been trying to leave. The ones I recovered from my shirt (ew!) didn't have time to demonstrate any intentions!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

In any case that might be another reason he seems to be singing the blues, I bet he will feel alot better after the treatments.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

jbangelfish said:


> Hookworms and hairworms are real small but Ivermectin I'm pretty sure will rid the bird of all of them.
> 
> Bill


Well if they die, *good*. I wish I could have gotten a picture some how, and knew for sure what they are. I figured that if the medicine kills them I will find tons of them on the paper?


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> In any case that might be another reason he seems to be singing the blues, I bet he will feel alot better after the treatments.


Gosh I hope so, I hope it works! 

Another thing, they are sort of fat. Not thread like, but fat..like slugs!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Snipes, you sure are having fun lately!

This triggered something in my memory about some mockingbirds we raised so I checked my records. In 1998 we got in 4 of them and two days later I made the following note: "observed worm-like stuff wiggling in poop - called Afterhours (it was after 5 pm and our vet was closed) and they estimated weight (we didn't have scales then) at 20 grams and recommended 0.01 Pyrantel. Talked to our vet the next day who said they were larvae from parasites."

I remember them being pretty much like you described and in this baby's case there were lots of them. The Pyrantel cleared things right up. I wish I had asked what type larvae but just assumed they were roundworms since they are so common. She probably would have had to see them anyhow.

I think Ivermectin will do the trick if you don't have the Pyrantel.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It definitely sounds like the tapeworm to me. 

This link which shows the egg sacs of a tapeworm hosted by a cat:

http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dtapeworm%2520eggs%26fr2%3Dtab-web%26fr%3Dslv1-mdp&w=185&h=197&imgurl=www.maxshouse.com%2FMed%2520Pix%2Ftapeworms-seg%2520crop.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.maxshouse.com%2FParasites_Internal.htm&size=16.5kB&name=tapeworms-seg%20crop.jpg&p=tapeworm%20eggs&type=JPG&oid=a3815d70fc8dff48&no=2&tt=64

If it happens again, watch them. The eggs are in a muscular sac that moves away from the poop, but doesn't go very far. It isn't actually a worm that you see. 
The problem is that not all wormers will kill tapeworms, so you have to ensure that whatever wormer you use does the job.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This is pretty fascinating stuff!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Life is a little too interesting right now, Maggie... 

I don't have Pyrantel, darn. But, I've dosed the Ivermectin so fingers crossed.

I looked at those pictures of the tapeworm sacs and I suppose it could be those, although these are MUCH smaller than a grain of rice, and not white, but beige. I guess a tapeworm that infects birds would be smaller though!! If I find another one I will try to examine it more closely and get a picture.

What drug works against tapeworms? Actually I think I have those little blue pills that include something for those...maybe I should try it in a few days JUST IN CASE. Meanwhile I will be a lot more careful when cleaning out that cage


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Charis said:


> This is pretty fascinating stuff!


It is immensely fascinating to me that an egg sac is capable of movement!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I found this on google. As I read it, Ivermectin doesn't treat tapeworms.

http://www.shilala.com/ivomec.html


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*No, it doesn't*



Lady Tarheel said:


> I found this on google. As I read it, Ivermectin doesn't treat tapeworms.
> 
> http://www.shilala.com/ivomec.html


But I don't think that you are dealing with tapeworms either. They are very rare in pigeons. They do occur but again, very rarely.

Bill


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Ivermectin doesn't kill tapeworms, but the wormout pills that I also have does. I am going to treat the bird again in 10-12 days use the wormout product. I'll do it a third time too in another 10 days JIC. Unfortunately (what am I saying??) I did not find any to photograph or examine last night or this morning. That might (?) mean the ivermectin didn't do the trick as if they are worms I would expect to see them being eliminated already.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sometimes they aren't eliminated but absorbed instead. Large infestations can cause a blockage and infection.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

oh sure something else for me to worry about


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Let me know if you need anything else to do. I'll try to think some things up for ya.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yup*



Charis said:


> Sometimes they aren't eliminated but absorbed instead. Large infestations can cause a blockage and infection.


You might never see them, especially little ones.

Bill


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TheSnipes said:


> It was beige flesh colored, and moving/squirming. I couldn't detect anything like features, like mouth parts, or anything like that. Just smooth, featureless beige colored 'skin'.
> 
> I would not say it looked like rice, at least, it was much smaller than any rice I've ever seen, no longer than this line: _
> 
> The one I found on the paper was not in the poop but right next to it, so it might have been trying to leave. The ones I recovered from my shirt (ew!) didn't have time to demonstrate any intentions!!




Sounds like a Trematode...


Put it into some Gin or other Alcohol, and see if you can get someone with a icroscope to examine it, and do a few 'googles' on 'Trematodes' or Avian Trematodes, and see if it is in the ballpark.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Trematodes&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Or...

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=Avian+Trematodes


Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Sounds like a Trematode...
> 
> 
> Put it into some Gin or other Alcohol, and see if you can get someone with a icroscope to examine it, and do a few 'googles' on 'Trematodes' or Avian Trematodes, and see if it is in the ballpark.
> ...


JIC, what sort of worm medicine kills these ?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Trematodes are flukes and are described as flat and leaflike, reaching up to 1mm in size.

In pigeons the symptoms of a fluke infestation would be enteritis, usually severe, lassitude, poor appetite, diarrhea and weakness.

They are not common in pigeons although they are possible, because their lifecycle involves water and intermediate hosts like molluscs.

As a comparison, the droppings of a pigeon with tapeworm will be normal in colour and firm. The tapeworm segments are described as small (0.3mm), fleshy in colour and numerous..up to 20 or 30 can appear in a single dropping.

Both can be treated with praziquantel or epsiprantel.

Cynthia


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Sounds like a Trematode...
> 
> Phil
> l v



This picture, found from one of the links in Phil's post, looks *EXACTLY* like what I saw...










It's not flat in the picture, neither was the things in this bird's droppings. I haven't found any more but I haven't gotten any fresh poo on me either...Praziquantel is one of the ingredients in the wormout plus tabs, I am going to re-treat the bird with those. Guess I'll go ahead and do it now instead of waiting for the 10 days to elapse, then again in 10 more days.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> T The tapeworm segments are described as small (0.3mm), fleshy in colour and numerous..up to 20 or 30 can appear in a single dropping.
> 
> Cynthia


Thanks...where did you see that description? Everything I've found says white and rice-like.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is how Dr Wym Peters, author of "Fit to Win" describes the flukes that can affect pigeons (there have been several species identified in pigeons)

I made a mistake, though: flukes can be up to 1cm in size! 

Dr Wym Peters also describes tape worm segments as flesh coulored.

Cynthia


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is really interesting. Sould I have wormed the 6 baby pigeons that I have been raising? And what would I worm them with? As a matter of fact, before they are released, is there anything else I should be giving them? And please, if there is, tell me where to purchase it. I want to be sure they are healthy before letting them go. Thanks.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

"called Dipylidium caninum, which is flea-vectored. Taenia taeniaeformis are are transmitted by predation of rabbits or rodents. The parasite attaches to the small intestinal wall by hook-like mouthparts. Adult tapeworms may reach 8 inches (20 cm) in length. The adult worm is actually made up of many small segments about 1/8 inch (3 mm) long. As the tail end of the worm matures, the terminal segments break off and pass into the stool. Occasionally, the mobile segments can be seen crawling near the anus or on the surface of a fresh bowel movement. These segments look like grains of rice and contain tapeworm eggs; the eggs are released into the environment when the segment dries. The dried segments are small (about 1/ 16", or 2 mm), hard and golden in color. These dried segments can sometimes be seen stuck to the hair around the cat's anus"

Ew ew ew ew ew.
And WHAT is that tiny slug in that picture you found? (ew)

I think it's time to oil up a garlic pill and shove it down BOTH your throats. If it is flea vectored, do you have to treat for fleas? If it is fish vectored, do you have to treat for FISH? mmm...can a pigeon catch fish? Check his pen for a ROD and REEL!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

We need a STICKY, just on worms and the best way to treat.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Prazi is the best all around*



TheSnipes said:


> This picture, found from one of the links in Phil's post, looks *EXACTLY* like what I saw...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As long as you have wormer with Praziquantel, use it and it will eliminate all parasites, even flukes if your birds had them (which I doubt). 

Prazi is the new miracle cure for parasites, just like Ivermectin used to be and is considered much safer than Ivermectin as well.

Bill


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

philodice said:


> Ew ew ew ew ew.
> And WHAT is that tiny slug in that picture you found? (ew)


That picture is some kind of trematode, and it really does look just like what came out of this bird.



philodice said:


> I think it's time to oil up a garlic pill and shove it down BOTH your throats. If it is flea vectored, do you have to treat for fleas? If it is fish vectored, do you have to treat for FISH? mmm...can a pigeon catch fish? Check his pen for a ROD and REEL!


LOL. Believe me it gives me the itches. Definitely high EW quotient.

Those things, are free swimming and in cyst form for part of their life cycle, in water...I suppose a pidge could swallow one while drinking...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I have helped out working with sheep and they get these flukes, I thought that might be what it was when you descibed it. I know the sheep got them from the water. I can't remember but do they come from a fly from eggs near water? intersesting about the new wormer too.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I suppose a pidge could swallow one while drinking...


I think they would have to eat the "intermediary host", which would be something like a small snail. That is why they are uncommon in pigeons.

Cynthia


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> I think they would have to eat the "intermediary host", which would be something like a small snail. That is why they are uncommon in pigeons.
> 
> Cynthia


Well that could be right, certainly humans and other animals get them by eating other hosts, but according to the life-cycle pages I was reading, the free swimming or cyst phase can be ingested and there it renews the cycle. So it did not sound like the intermediate host has to be eaten, just a phase of development happens there, for instance see: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/zoolab/Table_of_Contents/Lab-4a/Trematode_Life-Cycle/Lab_4a-05a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/zoolab/Table_of_Contents/Lab-4a/Trematode_Life-Cycle/trematode_life-cycle.htm&h=300&w=325&sz=32&hl=en&start=12&um=1&tbnid=XzOobPeiartrRM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTrematodes%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN here, and I'm referring to stages 5-7. 

There are gobs of these things with a bewildering array of adaptations. Anyway they are interesting creatures to say the least and if nothing else I learned something(s)! Even if it is not wholly relevant to my particular pigeon issue.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> I have helped out working with sheep and they get these flukes, I thought that might be what it was when you descibed it. I know the sheep got them from the water. I can't remember but do they come from a fly from eggs near water? intersesting about the new wormer too.


It does seem to involve water at some point apparently they must live out part of their lives in water, except when they've invaded some poor host organism!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bear in mind, all Organisms either live 'in' Water, or, live in Water as well as managing the Water 'in' them, or live on Land, managing the Water 'in' them.

How Pigeons would acquire Trematodes, I do not know, but damp Soils, Puddles, or other approximately aqueous situations probably play a role...


Clearly, were one to compare a segment of a Tape Worm, an endoparasitic 'Worm' of whatever kind, a Trematode, and the Eggs of any Egg Laying endoparasite, there would be little possibility of confusions as to say and see easily which is which, especially if the Trematode is 'wiggleing' while being observed.


If a Pigeon shows Trematodes in their fecal matter, the fact of the presence of the Trematode would seem to me to be a primary and self-evident fact, and, conjectures wishing to validate or invalidate the presence or fact, on some basis of needing to say how the Organism was obtained, are secondary.


Not all Trematodes are as definitely Species-Specific as the literature suggests, and many will Make-Do in Hosts which are not at all their usual or preferred ones, even if making-do is less than satisfactory, as was probably the case with this one, who elected to leave in lieu of staying.



Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I found two of them near a moist fresh dropping this morning. These 2 are much smaller than the ones I saw on the first night. They were not moving at all. I put them in a vial of alcohol to keep them from drying out and tonight I will try to have a look under the scope. I'll try to get a picture but I think they won't show up.

This bird's droppings are better looking, I think. Hard to say as it is a paper shredder and trampler of things, and up till now I'd assumed its poo was OK since I saw no obvious sign of diarrhea or other issues. But now I am seeing well-formed poos - at least till they get flattened by trampling.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

TheSnipes said:


> I found two of them near a moist fresh dropping this morning. These 2 are much smaller than the ones I saw on the first night. They were not moving at all. I put them in a vial of alcohol to keep them from drying out and tonight I will try to have a look under the scope. I'll try to get a picture but I think they won't show up.
> 
> This bird's droppings are better looking, I think. Hard to say as it is a paper shredder and trampler of things, and up till now I'd assumed its poo was OK since I saw no obvious sign of diarrhea or other issues. But now I am seeing well-formed poos - at least till they get flattened by trampling.


what is the treatment for these "things", a dewormer of some type? are you going to use the the new wormer mentioned before(forgot the name)


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> what is the treatment for these "things", a dewormer of some type? are you going to use the the new wormer mentioned before(forgot the name)


I've treated the bird with Ivermectin once. You have to re-treat them again in 10-12 days to get the younger larvae/eggs that have aged since the first time, (all wormers are like that). I thought that I would use the Wormout pills that I have since they contain a combination of medications that are effective against a broader range of internal parasites.

As for whether any of these treatments is/will be effective......since I really don't know what the things are, I can't say. All I can do for now is try to identify the parasite, and hope.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhh...


Maybe swich the Cage Bottom liner to Butcher Paper for a while, or flatten out a Brown Paper Bag and fold the ecess under, to be able to see the poops better or collect their contents for examination.


Do you have a friendly Vet who is decent at Lab Work stuff?


'Foys' I think still does the twenty dollar 'fecal', and or too, they have seen it all, I am sure, and might be worth consulting and or sending a 'fluke' ( Trematode example or two ) too...for them to see what they think.


These darned things are a little unsettleing to me too..!


Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

*Say cheese...*

OK. I got them out of the alcohol last night and got some pics of them under the microscope. Of course, they are deceased now, after their immersion. Might have been already anyway.

I don't have the type of microscope that's designed for observing 'large' 3-D items and my camera is not capable of attaching to its adapter, but I managed to get something, sorry the pics are not great and not definitive! I took several pics of each one and am going to put up 2 of each.

There are definitely features, but they were 'stuck' in the one position so i got what i got. Umm..one had its pucker end in profile...there are nucleated cells visible, and if it's a larval phase of anything, I'd guess it's mostly adipose tissue...

I can't tell anything, really, by these pictures, the things are still a mystery. They are *MUCH *smaller than the original 3 I saw, about < 1/3 the size. I still have them in their vial of alcohol.

Phil, I know lots of 'friendly' vets but they don't have very friendly rates!

That is *not *an arm sticking out but a bit of torn tissue...the thing is curled upward on the upper right end.









Close up of the end, not sure *which *end!! It's not too clear in this picture but it looked like a sphincter...it might be an anus!









This one is kind of curled up at both ends so can't see much detail, but there are two conical protrusions at the upper end (left side) and a dark line, possibly a slit, in between - it is not in focus and too dark to see here.









Just a closer view of the side, where the tissue is thin enough for the light to penetrate. You can see the nucleated cells of the thing's err, skin.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's just the way I like parasites...deceassed!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ugh! Now I see why you don't think they are tapeworm segments.

I wish I had your skill with the microscope.

Cynthia


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Ugh! Now I see why you don't think they are tapeworm segments.


Double UGH. I did give it the wormout pill this morning, and it gets another tomorrow. Trying not to take any chances  I don't know what they are! Except alarming! 

I wonder, could it be meaningful that I'm finding smaller ones, now? I had hoped they were not being seen cuz as people said they would be absorbed. Then I found these. I wish I had one of those grates for the cage floor..I used to have those...then the poos would fall through and not get trampled.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Those are really great Pictures!


Wow...


Just off-the-cuff, this looks like some order of 'Fluke' or Parasitic 'Flatworm' to me.


I guess, the thing to do is to try and find reference Images in Parasitology Archives or Reference Books or Web sites...


Some hasty images here - 


http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=Intestinal+Fluke



Good Work there Snipes..!



Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Snipes,

Those are really good pictures. One of the places you might get them identified, for free, is if there is a college nearby, see if you can get someone who teaches microbiology to take a look at them. They are always interested in real life mysteries. 

Margaret


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*A vet should know as well*

Probably free info somewhere on the internet too.

The wormer that is relatively new to us is Praziquantel or Prazi for short. It is in several wormers from Foys. This stuff is supposed to be very safe. I use if for my fish to treat for flukes when they come from Japan. It is supposed to eliminate all internal and external parasites. Much like Ivermectin in what it can do only easier on the animals being treated. It has only recently become available to us.

Bill


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I found the following on that drug, Bill. It looks llike it had been around for a while. Interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Charis said:


> I found the following on that drug, Bill. It looks llike it had been around for a while. Interesting.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel


Praziquantel is in the Wormout Gel product, and Wormout Plus, both from Vetafarm. They are popular in Australia and available here from the usual suppliers. I have some of the Wormout Plus tablets, that is what I gave this bird yesterday.

Here's an interesting diagram I found via Google:









I noticed the two tracts of the 'intestines' that reminded me of the two dark longitudinal lines visible in some of my pictures. I also noted the item marked "10: brain" is not any larger than the background stipling.  

Only thing is, these things really don't look flat, and trematodes are typically described as flat.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I read a very interesting article about a teenage girl in Africa that was underdeveloped
and had failed to thrive. At death's door she was taken to the hospital. She was found to have a severe Fluke infestation and treated with Praziquantel and was able to be released from the hospital within a couple of days, fully recovered. Those parasites are fascinating, weird things. 
Your poor little pigeon must have been feeling just wretched. No wonder he was digging at the paper in the corner of the cage.
I really think we need a worm sticky.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I read something very scary about large #s of water bird die-offs annually around the great lakes due to trematode infestations


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Don't Tell Me!*

......


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Recently made available to us*



Charis said:


> I found the following on that drug, Bill. It looks llike it had been around for a while. Interesting.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel


It has been around but it's my understanding that we are just recently able to obtain it in the US, thankfully.

Bill


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I read some about it online and it is available in a topical formula too. That is intended for cats...maybe dogs..so not sure about using it for birds that way. Hopefully it will turn out you can...


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

TheSnipes said:


> ...I wish I had one of those grates for the cage floor..I used to have those...then the poos would fall through and not get trampled.


At your local hardware store, you may be able to find plastic grating intended as part of flourescent ceiling fixtures in the kitchen. They are easy to cut to size and hose clean.



Charis said:


> I found the following on that drug, Bill. It looks llike it had been around for a while. Interesting.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel


In the details of that page, it mentions "...GI Tract: Approximately 90% of all patients have abdominal pain or cramps with or without nausea and vomiting...". Might need to provide some enticing, easy to digest small seeds (pigeon candy) after worming.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Snipes, 



Simple 1/4 schedule 'Hardware Cloth' ( Stout Wire mesh with square aperatures ) can be had any any Hardware Store, Home club etc., and, if a Cage allows itself to be lifted off it's bottom, an elevated 'bottom' made of the Hardware Cloth is easy to make, by either adding spacers to a flat piece of the correct dimensions, or, folding to a sharp bend, fold the ends down to the right depth and adding a few spacers in the middle area to prevent sag.



Phil
l v


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

TerriB said:


> In the details of that page, it mentions "...GI Tract: Approximately 90% of all patients have abdominal pain or cramps with or without nausea and vomiting...". Might need to provide some enticing, easy to digest small seeds (pigeon candy) after worming.


Interesting! I was commenting (to myself ) this morning that bird has lost interest in food and water for a couple days...maybe due to the pill. Hope it's just that. I will have to learn to read more thoroughly 



pdbison said:


> Simple 1/4 schedule 'Hardware Cloth' ( Stout Wire mesh with square aperatures ) can be had any any Hardware Store, Home club etc., and, if a Cage allows itself to be lifted off it's bottom, an elevated 'bottom' made of the Hardware Cloth is easy to make, by either adding spacers to a flat piece of the correct dimensions, or, folding to a sharp bend, fold the ends down to the right depth and adding a few spacers in the middle area to prevent sag.


I found the cage grating! Hopefully now I can collect some better poos and actually I guess I hope I do not find any more THINGS in it.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I found the cage grating! Hopefully now I can collect some better poos and actually I guess *I hope I do not find any more THINGS in it*

***************************************************************

Hopefully, Snipes...BUT, better OUT than *in* your pijies! 

ALL THE BEST

Shi


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I just finished using Worm Out and wanted to share some observations.

If you give the Worm Out before the birds have breakfast, they seem less likely to vomit it back up. Some birds are more prone to vomit - I've had two related birds that consistently do. if you can hang around for about 20 minutes after giving the pills, you can sometimes distract those individuals from throwing up the pill. If you notice a bird starting to vomit, try picking them up and petting them for a few minutes, especially stroking down the front of their throat.

The pill are a pretty blue color and can temporarily alter the color of the poops to an...interesting...green color. 

As with any stress to their systems, I follow up with three days of probiotics.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Thansk for that, Terri. I have always given the wormout pills at night after dark, when it is easiest to pick up my birds. I had not noticed any of them vomiting it up but might not have hung out long enough to be sure. In the future if I use this medicine I will be sure to monitor them for vomiting.

FYI...the bird in question...I have not found any more of these organisms in its poo since it had its wormout followed a few days later by ivermectin. He is "due" for a followup if I dose him according to a 10-days later schedule. I think I am going to give him the wormout, as it has power over more types of worms. This will be his 3rd (and I think) final worming. I'll keep a watch on his papers but with the grate in, I can really inspect them and so far I've seen nothing resembling any wormy thing since I took those disturbing pictures.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I hope your pij passes all these guys and gets well.



> This is pretty fascinating stuff!


Gives you something to think about that's for sure.
I freaked when I saw worms and started double dosing myself with garlic. Those little suckers are interesting and very creepy. I was able to get pictures they were so big.



> I really think we need a worm sticky.


I agree.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I think there is a worm sticky. At least, there is a worm thread in the resources section somewhere I remember seeing.


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