# No more feeding pigeons



## Widgy Lover (Jul 24, 2008)

We have new landlords where I live, and last week they told me I could no longer feed the flock of pigeons that I have been feeding for over 2 years. =( They said they are "a health hazard and pose a risk to the community." I love my sweet pigeons! And have taken care of them for so long. They even all have names and respond to them! They are not dirty, I change their bath water daily as well as put a sprinkler on that they love to lay under with one wing up and clean! I am so so heartbroken! =(( They are all still here, just sitting on my roof and porch looking at me with sad eyes. I am still filling their water and putting the sprinkler on for them though...stupid management didn't say I couldn't bathe them!!!!!!! How are they health hazards? They are all very healthy, all very shiny and clean with perfect shiny feathers, and not one even sneezes! I guess I have to do what they say, but I don't like this AT ALL! Maybe I should walk to the end of the empty field here and feed them discreetly from there. Although, 70+ pigeons are hard to be discreet with! My poor babies =(


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Such a common problem that, sadly, we hear of or experience so often.

If you can feed your flock somewhere that no-one can claim they are a 'nuisance' that may be the answer. 

There is very little illness that pigeons can cause in humans and only then if one is real up close and personal with a sick pigeon and doesn't take sensible precautions one should take with any possibly sick bird or animal - and if people don't like them, they ain't going to have anything to do with them. 90% of the stuff that's talked about them probably originates from pest control companies anyway, but people will pick up on something negative to complain about without ever questioning it. Like "Don't confuse me with *facts*!" It's the uninformed (and gullible) swallowing stuff shoved at them by the ignorant.

I've been feeding ferals for years (and give them plenty of baths  ). I take in sick pigeons. I spend regular weekends cleaning up an aviary full of rescued pigeons. If I had pigeons in a closed environment for too long I could get problems from the feather dust and other particles, but that isn't going to happen outside in the fresh air to people who don't get close to pigeons.

As it is, I've never gotten sick from a pigeon - whether healthy or very ill pigeons.

John


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

I would lure them to the empty field for feeding. You will accomplish nothing by angering your landlord. He has the power to bring in exterminators on HIS property and you will be helpless to protect your flock. Perhaps the owner of the empty lot would not care if you feed and maybe he will never learn if he doesn't visit the property.I believe your flock is much safer away from a person ignorant enough to believe the pigeons will make humans sick.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

John is right...we do hear this far too often. In fact, that's how I came to join this forum. I had also been told I could not feed the rehabbed pigeons that I had released from my own home. I understand how painful this is for you to deny the pigeons you have come to admire and love so much. In a way, they are your cherished family and denying them food and water is heartbreaking.
I'm really sorry and I understand.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

If, as littlebird suggests, you can find some adjacent off-property location and acclimate them to moving there, that might make the situation OK. They will catch on pretty fast.


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

I had the same problem I was feeding my pigeons for over than 2 years, but my neighbors start complaining, I had problems with everybody, at the end I stopped but it was hard I was crying all the time, I still feed but only a few in my back yard, mostly small birds but I still miss the ones that were coming before, try to find another place if is possible, I hate when this things happen.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I don't have the same problem - YET - but something tells me that I could not continue what I'm doing for very long.

I live in a 3-story 24-unit apartment building. We have an apartment building on either side of us, and a big 1-story carport with a tarred over roof. Another apartment building on the other side of the block, faces over the carport roof.

I have been feeding pigeons by going down into the carport area and throwing seed up to the carport roof.

This morning when I went out, I looked up and saw 30 (yes, THIRTY) birds silently watching me from the edge of the roof of my building and the one next door.

I put the seed up (1 fistful for every 2 birds). The birds didn't fly down until I walked back down the driveway with my dog, then one brave guy swooped down, and carefully walked over and as soon as he started eating, all the others swooped in too.

AND...my apartment looks out over the carport, almost at eye level, and I usually have my windows open (they have screens though) and I swear, those pigeons know my voice and they fly down to the carport roof when I'm on the phone!!!

It's a good thing I have screens on my windows or I think the pidgies would fly in the window all "Hey you! Where's our breakfast?"

I have not been caught feeding yet, it's only been about a month, but many apartments look out over the carport so it's only a matter of time, and then the management will tell me to stop, and if I don't they'll exterminate.

So I have to go to plan B.

We used to have a really REALLY loud alarm on the door to the roof, but last week I was looking for some pidgie babies I heard squeaking in the lightwell, so I went up and thought "I'm going to go through that door even if it sets off the alarm" and - it didn't! So I went out onto the roof. Woo hoo!

I think from now on, I'm going to feed on the roof, where people won't see me. Of course, my cats will miss watching the pidgies but...I think I will be able to get away with that for longer.

What do you think???


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think I'd be careful. If the management finds out, they could poison them. And thirty soon turn into fifty.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

OMG, seriously? Thirty will become fifty? I mean, I don't really know what to expect. I do know that there are more hanging around than there ever were. Is there some sort of pidgie secret sign where they all tell each other where the food is? How the freak do they know???

Funny thing is, out of all the birds I feed (in two locations now), I only recognize two! But about 40 birds recognize ME now. So who's smarter 

There's a bunch that hang around the gas station around the corner from my apartment...I think they're getting to know me too because I usually give them a nosh. In fact, that area is in the line of sight of the roof of my building, so it's possible that the ones I feed there are double-dipping. They're so cute, they flutter at shoulder height when I'm standing there.

I'm cool at the bakery where I feed, I've trained the birds away from it and down the hill around the corner on the blind side of a bank building. I look out for muggles and police before I feed, and it's not that easy to see me doing it.

Why is it so hard to be kind to animals? Doesn't seem fair.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

SerendipityCA said:


> OMG, seriously? Thirty will become fifty? I mean, I don't really know what to expect. I do know that there are more hanging around than there ever were. Is there some sort of pidgie secret sign where they all tell each other where the food is? How the freak do they know???
> 
> Funny thing is, out of all the birds I feed (in two locations now), I only recognize two! But about 40 birds recognize ME now. So who's smarter
> 
> ...


I agree with you, it's very unfair. But Jay3 has a very good point -- well-fed pigeons will breed more often and multiply, and any flying overhead will see the unmistakable signs of a dinner table laid out, and will join the others. This will make them, and you, more visible.
You probably don't worry much about getting into trouble because of that, if you're anything like me, but we have to worry at what may happen to THEM! The management may poison them, and any that escape may, by then, have become so dependent on you that they will find it difficult to forage elsewhere. It's awful that trying to help any creature might result in a death sentence to them in the long run, but sometimes it's just what happens.
Is there a park or a safer place nearby where you could feed them?


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## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

That was the problem that I had before, I was feeding at least 10 of them, but after were more than 50 and is when I had problems, I still feed pigeons, around Embarcadero area in Downtown where I work, I just try to be careful that people are not around, because many people don't like pigeons, but is funny one time I saw a couple pigeons and I sat waiting until was clear because a lot of people was walking around, and my surprise was that it was a woman coming in my way, and had some seeds in her bag and start feeding the pigeons in front of everybody, I can tell that she work in one of the buildings, but I think was cute that I'm not the only one feeding pigeons in downtown, I know is a risk, but I try to do it when nobody is around.

And is true they recognize you, they can even recognize your car, I remember a store that I used to go and were pigeons there and they were coming to my car and were begging for food it was so cute to see those faces, they are so smart and can remember you for a long time even if you don't see them very often.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ivor said:


> And is true they recognize you, they can even recognize your car, I remember a store that I used to go and were pigeons there and they were coming to my car and were begging for food it was so cute to see those faces, they are so smart and can remember you for a long time even if you don't see them very often.


Yes Ivor, wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone could understand just how cute and amazingly smart these birds are. If everyone could appreciate them as we do? At one time, to me, pigeons were just pigeons. Just there, everywhere, you know? Then I kinda got stuck with 6 little orphans to raise. I didn't have to, but they would have died had I walked away from them. And I felt that every living creature should have a chance at life. Even a little fluffy pin feathered pigeon. Even if they did sit on my roof, filling my gutters with poop all year long, as they came for the seed I put out for the songbirds. Of course, it didn't take long before I felt bad and started throwing out seed for them too. Even rushing home from work in the winter time, because I knew that they retire earlier than some others, and wanted to make sure they had food in their bellies for the night. But raising them, gave me the opportunity to get to know them. Really know them, for the enchanting, funny, intelligent, pushy little characters that they are. I fell in love with them, and instead of building the much needed shed we had planned on this year, we built a loft and aviary. It is even becoming handicapped accessible for the little rescue I took in with a bad wing. Those other people who don't know them, don't have any idea of what they're missing. And you're right. They do know my car. As soon as I drive up in my driveway, they come flying in from where ever they were waiting. Yes, they're smart. Smart enough to train even us dumb humans, if just given the chance.


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## auroraborealis (May 30, 2006)

Hello to all !

So, so sorry to here about this. I have the same problem here in Montreal. I started feeding one pigeon who was in a bad shape and was a loner. Now he's a very popular guy with the ladies and the leader of the pack! He tries to come alone early in the morning but he is usually followed by 8 to 10 pigeons. And yes, someone complained and we ended up with a warning from the inspector to change our feeders.
Here we cannot even feed pigeons in the park and you can also get a fine from doing this.

I have been feeding them for 2 years now well especially the little guy with no tail feathers who pecks on my toes and grunts at 6 am for his breakfast. and have been trying to fatten him up with vitamins and get those feathers growing back. This summer he came to me in a terrible shape and I think he got attacked by a cat again. He was too confident and started eating on the ground and even going looking for seeds under the pine tree! 

Our idea is to catch him and try to get those feathers growing again, then release him and stop feeding the ferals. 

I also think it's wiser to stop or do it very early in the morning. Some people are convinced pigeons carry contagious diseases and will not think twice before using poison.

Susan


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## 4zpigeons (Jul 7, 2008)

Be cautious of landlords and those neighbors that threaten harming these amazing creatures. I started with one and now have eighty-eight plus heads that peer from above... land on me to eat out of hand... They know my car, my schedule, my bedroom window, etc... I too have three in the 'infirmary'... and last night nearly adopted a young one that I later learned was too tired to fly 'home'... I am honored to have such an opportunity to share what I can with these flying creatures / however I watch for when to feed and clean-up as those uneducated will always throw a 'nasty' dart in the direction of our winged friends. ~ Also depending on where you live a 'bird of 'prey' may take to harming your flock... Some days its better to carry a little seed in hand and drop it when you can. They're smart - they'll find you. Good luck.
~ 4zp.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Oh boy, I don't think I thought it through. 

So, as to the idea of feeding in the park, yes there is a very large (6 square blocks) park kitty-korner from my house here in San Francisco, but it is heavily used. A junior high school is on two of those six blocks, then two kids' playgrounds, a field house, and four softball fields and a tennis and basketball court. The one grassy area is used by the dog people (of which I am one) and also by people who rent it for picnics, birthday parties, etc. It's also right alongside a chainlink fence by the street. There isn't a single part of that park where I could feed without being seen sooner rather than later, by a LOT more people than see me now.

So, some bad news. 

I posted on another thread that a month ago (exactly, July 29th) I was coming back from my own mother's memorial service with her ashes in the trunk of my car when I saw a dead pigeon in the driveway and stopped so I wouldn't run over it. That's the driveway that runs the length of my building back to the carport area where 22 cars park. My apartment overlooks the carport. The dead bird, I think, was one of the parents of some babies that were born on the 1st floor fire escape overlooking the driveway. So I picked him up and then took him (or her) and gave him a nice burial in the Presidio Pet Cemetery. I'm going to put a grave marker.

Anyway, I had been throwing some seed into the recess below the fire escape, not directly ON the driveway, but close, and I think I might have caused him to be hanging out there on the ground more, and contributed to his death. So I totally stopped putting food there, and started throwing it up onto the roof of the freestanding carport, which is about 10 feet high.

Every day when I walked down the driveway I'd see this bird looking down at me from the fire escape, and I'd say hi, but I couldn't throw food up to him because the owners have put mesh all over, and the fire escape has metal slats, so the food would just fall through and he couldn't get to it. I had the impression that it might be a baby. I heard baby squeaking noises over the last couple of months, and even went up to the roof to look down and see if I could see the babies but I couldn't. Anyway, his beak had a bump on it and he looked small, so I think he was a fledgling. I'm guessing one of his parents still fed him there because he didn't starve to death. I wish I had taken more of an interest in him though because come to think of it if no one had been feeding him he would have starved right under my nose. I just realized that as I'm typing this - why didn't I think of it???

Anyway there is a studio apartment RIGHT THERE, he's 2' outside their main window so I don't know - maybe the person in that apartment never opens his window, or doesn't mind pigeons.

So, getting to the point. Today I looked out my window and saw a small pigeon standing on the ground in the carport area (in front of the killer truck that had killed the other one). My flock almost NEVER goes down onto the ground, except in search of seeds I might have dropped, but they eat fast and leave. So, I went out to investigate, and it was the fledgling, and he had a big wound on the back of his neck. Right where the neck hits the shoulders, I could see it was red and raw. So I got a box and a towel. When I approached him he just sort of stood there, and I sort of lay on the ground and inched closer to him and got really close and he just closed his eyes. I used the towel to pick him up but I don't think I needed it, though he fought a bit when I put him in the box.

I took him up to WildCare in Marin and they said he'd been attacked by SOMETHING - the gash is really nasty and they weren't sure whether they were going to close it surgically, or put him down. They said that someone was there who could evaluate him, but a surgical team leader would be in tomorrow and would look at him then. I gave them a $100 donation and said he's a baby whose parent was killed, and I really want him to live, so I can release him back to the flock. They said they won't let him suffer so if he's in huge pain they'll put him down. I said, well a little pain might be worth it if he gets to live a long life though, right?

I called today and they didn't call me back so I'll call tomorrow and see. 

Please think good thoughts!!!

And if/when I do get him back, I don't think he knows how to fly yet. But I'll post then, asking for advice.

By the way, somebody up thread talked about predators, and in fact I did go up to the roof and put seed out there, hoping to be more discreet, but I actually have to go to the third floor and walk up, and the building manager lives on the third floor and I think it wouldn't be long before he caught me going up to the roof or coming down. I could say I was just going up there to read a book but I think we're really not allowed up there. So if I trained them all to go on the roof, then I had to stop, that wouldn't be good.

While I was up there, I saw two crows hopping around. Do they prey on pigeons? Could they have been the ones who attacked the fledgling?

OK, I'm rambling on as usual...


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

*Bad News*

I called about my fledgling that I had taken to WildCare in Marin, and they said they put him down. Apparently he had an infection called "crick" that was advanced and had taken over his crop and throat, and in addition he had a "degloved" wound on the back of his neck that was quite deep.

I wish I had taken more of an interest in him up there on the fire escape, but after one of his parents was killed a month ago (July 29), he survived and I figured the other parent was feeding him. I wasn't even sure he was a baby to be honest, though I had heard squeaks from that area a month earlier, and figured there was a baby there somewhere. But I couldn't really tell that he was a baby because all I ever saw peeking over was his head.

I feel rotten about it.

ETA: I looked up "crick" and I must have heard her wrong. Do you think she said "trich?"


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry. You can't blame yourself. If we learn anything from an experience, then it wasn't wasted. I'll bet the next time, you will investigate closer. But take that learning away with you. Don't beat yourself up over what we can not change now.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Poor little guy, he didn't have much of a life. He spent it all on that damned fire escape and watched one of his parents get killed and then the body lay there for a couple of hours before I happened on it and took it away. I don't know how he got off the fire escape and ended up standing in the carport but thank heavens I looked out my window and at least could scoop him up to "safety" right away before another tenant saw him. And he was standing right in front of the "killer truck" (the truck that killed his parent). If that person had come out and gotten into his truck, I don't know that the bird would have had the strength to move away, and the guy wouldn't care, he'd just run over him. 

I'm a bit tired of giving pigeons a good death though - I've brought about 6 birds over the years up to WildCare and not one has survived.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SerendipityCA said:


> Poor little guy, he didn't have much of a life. He spent it all on that damned fire escape and watched one of his parents get killed and then the body lay there for a couple of hours before I happened on it and took it away. I don't know how he got off the fire escape and ended up standing in the carport but thank heavens I looked out my window and at least could scoop him up to "safety" right away before another tenant saw him. And he was standing right in front of the "killer truck" (the truck that killed his parent). If that person had come out and gotten into his truck, I don't know that the bird would have had the strength to move away, and the guy wouldn't care, he'd just run over him.
> 
> I'm a bit tired of giving pigeons a good death though - I've brought about 6 birds over the years up to WildCare and not one has survived.


I don't know, but I think I'd maybe think twice about bringing another pigeon there. Doesn't sound like they try REAL HARD to help them. You could probably do better yourself with the help of the people of experience on P.T. they always have so many good suggestions, and are always willing to help. Think about it next time. Don't think I'd bring another one there. It would have to be a last resort.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I don't know, but I think I'd maybe think twice about bringing another pigeon there. Doesn't sound like they try REAL HARD to help them. You could probably do better yourself with the help of the people of experience on P.T. they always have so many good suggestions, and are always willing to help. Think about it next time. Don't think I'd bring another one there. It would have to be a last resort.



To be honest, that thought has crossed my mind after the last couple that they euthanized. They have a wonderful reputation and do good work but I wonder whether they would go to the lengths I would, for instance, for a pet.

I donated $100 this time hoping to motivate them to help the bird. I don't know...they do seem really caring, and the person who described the infection of the crop and throat said that while this condition is treatable, this was a very advanced case.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'd still think twice about it. Or, at least I might bring him in, but wouldn't leave him there. I'd have to bring him in where I wouldn't have to leave him. I wouldn't trust anyone that I didn't know well to leave them a pigeon. Pigeons just don't seem to be top priority with many people who are supposed to care about helping animals. At least, that is the way I feel.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I went to the building next door and knocked on the door of the studio apartment whose fire escape the pigeon had been living on. The woman let me in (mid-30's I think) and when I asked her about the pigeons she said that they're disgusting, she has mites in her apartment, she and the neighbor who share that fire escape have both complained to the management about them but all they did was put mesh around the fire escape so the pigeons couldn't nest UNDER it. So because there's solid ground under the fire escape there on the first floor (it's over the garage), she thinks that the pigeons preferred to nest there so they continued to do so even after the mesh prevented them from nesting under the fire escape (between it and the garage roof). Unlike my lightwell which could be walled in from the sky, hers is double-wide and adjacent to the driveway of my building, so even if they put mesh over the whole thing from the sky, pigeons could still walk in from the street, or via the carport area in the back. 

Anyway, she was very happy to hear that the pigeon was gone, and said "Good" when I said he had been badly injured. When I told her I had taken him to a bird sanctuary she said "Why didn't you just put him in the garbage?" I said "He was alive!" and she said "he would have died soon enough."

I asked her a couple of times if she had hit him and she said no, she tried to avoid them, but she would have if she had had the courage. But she didn't even like to look out her window at him.

She let me look out the window and I saw a nest, and also a dead baby that was completely dessicated - just skeleton, skin and feathers. She let me take that one away in a garbage bag. I couldn't reach the nest though, and she wouldn't have let me walk out there onto the fire escape and walk back through her apartment because my shoes would have been dirty.

Poor little guy. He spent his whole life on a 5' x 2' fire escape and never knew the joy of flight. I so wish I had rescued him one of those many times I walked by and saw his silly little head sticking out and looking down at me. I'd talk to him but that's all.

Both of the people whose apartments he lived outside, hated him. She said "pigeons are disgusting, they're rats with wings." But I have to think they didn't hurt him, that he just fledged and was ill and couldn't fly far and some predator got him. Who knows. The person I talked to yesterday said the wound was jagged, he might have gotten caught on something though I absolutely can't see what that could have been. Or maybe a cat or skunk got him. But they would have killed him, not just wounded him. Maybe it was a crow.

Anyway I have to stop thinking about him and move on. I really think I will not be able to feed behind the building much longer. The guy who was her neighbor on the fire escape, his apartment is the twin of mine (our buildings are identical)...and it looks out over the carport area just like mine does, so if he sees me feeding out there he WILL complain.

I live in an area that has so much foot traffic, and is so dense with people, I really don't know where to relocate them to. The park across the street would have its own set of problems.

Maybe I should put the food up at night where people can't see me.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I can understand how frustrating this whole thing is, but if you keep feeding, and attracting them to that area, those foolish people who hate them will keep complaining, and the management may end up poisoning them. I'd be careful, and please try to think about what is best for the birds. It is important that they get enough food, but not at the chance of being poisoned in the end. Imagine how badly you would feel if you were responsible for the death of the whole flock. And poisoning is a horrible way to go. It may be better if you just don't feed them in that area. I'm sorry.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Jay3, I totally get what you're saying. You said more or less the same thing a couple of days ago, up-thread, and I didn't really focus on it. But you're right. If I keep feeding, more and more birds will come, and they'll breed more, and eventually there will be 100 birds hanging around the back area of the building. Inevitably, some will wander down the driveway and be hit by cars, and somebody will complain about the poop, or something. I know that both building managers are pretty hands-off (the woman next door was complaining that aside from putting mesh down and spray-cleaning two years ago, the manager hasn't responded to her and her neighbor's repeated complaints)...but that doesn't mean some individual wouldn't take it on himself to put out poison.

To describe accurately what's going on right now, there are about 30 birds, and they hang out on the roofline at the back of the buildings. Nobody sees them there, except maybe third-floor apartment dwellers in the buildings that face my building at the back, but the birds are 10 feet higher, and not close, so there would probably not be any complaints about that. They fly down and eat the seed that I throw up to the carport roof, don't stay, then they fly away. I don't know where they roost or where they have babies. So their presence here so far as gone under the radar.

But if they start deciding that this is a good place to raise their babies, because this is where they eat, and if many more come to the buffet, then we really would have a problem.

There were pigeons for 3+ years having babies in my lightwell, and the lightwell next door, and they didn't do anything until they put mesh over the sky access. Probably fewer than 6-10 pigeons total in both buildings combined.

But...what you're basically saying is, I am CREATING a problem, if not now, then somewhere down the line in the future (and sooner rather than later)...even though I think I am being kind by feeding them.

Do you think I should just stop, cold turkey?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's really not my place to tell you what to do. I'm just trying to make you aware of what could happen. I had maybe ten pigeons hanging around a few years back, because I hang out feeders for the songbirds, and there is always some seed thrown to the ground by the birds searching for their favorite seeds. I would see them out there in the heat of summer, and the cold of winter, on my roof. So I felt bad for them, and started tossing down some seed for them. It didn't take long for their numbers to grow. Now there are probably 40 or 45 in the flock. The more you feed, the more they will come. That will happen there too. It's just what happens.They breed and bring their offspring with them. And they breed often. I don't know. What do you think will happen when they begin to multiply? Will it finally come to a head with the managers, or the owners of the building? Because if it does, the pigeons will lose. If you stop feeding them, it would probably be better, and kinder, to start cutting back on the amount of feed that you put down for them. Do this for a while, then cut back again. Keep cutting back until you are not giving them enough to really depend on. This way, they will have to (hopefully), find food elsewhere. I know how you feel. I always worried about whether or not they would find enough to eat if I wasn't feeding them. That's why I now have about 40 or 45. But, hopefully, there is some park or something around your area where people do feed the pigeons. They will probably find these places in time, that's why it is better to cut back gradually. To give them time to find these other places. They must already know of these places, because you are not feeding them enough to survive on just what you give them, are you? I wouldn't just stop. I'd do it gradually. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do. Not an easy decision, I know.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Jay3, I appreciate everything you post. You're more experienced than I am and you can see how this might unfold. And if the purpose is to help the pigeons, then I have to consider whether, in the long run, what I am doing will help or hurt.

Already in the past couple of months the number who hang around has gone from maybe 5 to 30.

Today when I walked up to the cafe there were about 8 of them hanging out on the roof of the corner building. I walked up to the diagonal corner and stood there for a second, and they all took flight instantly and flew down to where I feed, just behind where I was standing. Then three more showed up and I fed them all.

Later at the cafe my original bird who got me into all this, Stumpy, showed up. He was late to lunch, so I tied up my dog so she wouldn't follow me, showed Stumpy the packet of seeds, and cut across the street and around the corner and Stumpy followed me instantly.

You know, Stumpy used to have darker feathers that looked kind of ratty and greasy. Today, I was sure it was Stumpy because he has a scar on the back of his neck, is missing his right foot, and is missing a couple of toes (talons?) on the left foot. But his feathers were lighter grey, and he looked plumper. I wonder whether it's because of the seed I'm feeding him?

Anyway, I have been feeding one handful per two birds. I don't know how much each bird needs per day, I posted asking once but didn't get a reply. My intent isn't to give them everything they need for the day, just to improve their nutrition and help them along. I bought a 50# bag of pigeon mix at a store across the Bay. I'm about halfway through it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I thought about you today when I went out to feed the birds and looked at the large flock on my roof. Then I remember how it used to be about 10. I do know how you feel. I too, worry about them. I always care about animals that have no one to care. Like the ferral cats I see all over the place. Sometimes life is sad. No getting around it. Or the deer that we are chasing out into the roadways because of all the building of new homes taking up the land that used to be their environment. Or the songbirds that shared these same spaces. We humans are responsible for many wrongs on the part of animals. It sometimes makes me very sad. I too hate to see an animal struggling just to get by. I honestly can't tell you what the answer is. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could feed your little flock forever, and it wouldn't mushroom out of control?


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Jay3! I guess we're all "birds of a feather" on this forum - we flock together to share our love of all living things.

I did feed today, but put out a little less. I also fed my guy Stumpy up at the cafe. When I showed up he came down and hung out in the bus stop in the street waiting for me. I can tell it's Stumpy because of - well, the stump! - and the missing toes and the scar on the back of the neck. But his feathers used to be dark grey and greasy looking, and now he's a lighter grey and more sleek and not so dirty-looking. Do you think that's due to better nutrition, or is it just seasonal? Anyway, he was pretty impatient and flew off around the corner a couple of times to wait for me where I feed, but I took my time. Finally he came back and waited with me, and when I left he was so happy, he flew after me and got a good nosh. Him and eight of his buddies. They're all on to me there too!!!

I also do feral cat rescue and I'm lucky to live here in San Francisco because the SPCA has a Feral Fix program. They'll lend you a trap, and you can bring the cat in a trap to be fixed and vaccinated for free, and then either tame it and get it a home (not easy after age 8 weeks old, though I've done it with much older feral cats), or you can release it back to where it came from. And hopefully someone will feed it (you, maybe!)

There's a national advocacy group for feral cats with lots of good info about TNR (Trap, Neuter, Return). www.alleycat.org. There's also a yahoogroups list called [feral_cats] with TONS of experienced people and great files organized to cover any topic you might need information about.

If you do see them around your neighborhood, it would be great if you would trap them and get them fixed at least. Maybe you could put together a neigborhood group? I always wonder what happens to outdoor cats in the winter in cold climates like yours, in Massachusetts. But just like with feral pigeons, if you feed a feral cat and don't get it fixed, you're just making them healthy enough to make more babies who will be born homeless, so that's not good either.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the info. I do know what you mean about feeding them and then they just breed and bring more babies into the world. We have a crazy neighbor who feeds them, and leaves the food out, attracting skunks and rats. I have had a lot of problems because of her. I tried to convince her to go halves with me and get the females (at least) fixed, but she wouldn't. She's nuts, and she enjoys having them outside waiting for her to feed them. I told her that it was being cruel to them to let them keep breeding. It doesn't matter to her that they are sick with no one to bring them to a vet, and cold in the winter. I hate people like that. We have tried trapping them, but they won't go near the traps because she feeds them. They would have to be very hungry to enter a trap, but because of the food she leaves out, they're just not hungry enough. Sad. Thanks for the link.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Hey Jay3,

Well I should have known you wouldn't have sat by and done nothing about the cats, I'm really encouraged that you tried.

I think you probably COULD trap them, but of course you're competing with their regular food supply so it would take some ingenuity. One thing cats can't resist is KFC - a few warm bits in a trap will draw them like a honeypot. Then off to the vet and get them snipped. Females need 3-5 days recovery inside their traps because the sutures dissolve when wet. Males, 1-2 days. You can just put shredded newspaper in the back of the trap (NOT litter, as that might get stuck in the incision), food and water in the front, cover with lots of blankies so they're warm and feel like they're in a little lair, maybe put the whole thing on cardboard or something so they're not resting on a cold garage floor. 

Does the woman watch them eat, or could you take away the food after she leaves it?

Anyway if you're serious about getting them fixed, and I think that's an excellent idea, then join feral_cats over at yahoogroups and post about the problem. There are so many wise and experienced people over there, they could brainstorm with you to work around your nutty neighbor.

And as for feral cats, do you know what I call someone who feeds them and doesn't fix them? Yup, an outdoor breeder. Bad.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, as far as catching them is concerned, 1--she leaves the food outside by her side door. Hard to take away. And 2--she lives across the street from the woods and a river. Because she leaves it out all the time, it has attracted rats and skunks. Last summer when we were trying to trap the cats, the dog officer caught about 4 or 5 skunks in the traps instead of kittys. Do you have any idea of what it is like to remove a skunk from a trap? When the dog officer tried to get them, ( the cats) the woman yells at her, and says that they are her cats. And to leave them alone. She's totally impossible, and a little short of a full load, if you get my drift. People like that are impossible to deal with. Because of her, these cats have been around, and breeding for several years now. I wish people could see that they are just helping to bring more little lives into the world who really don't deserve the life they are dealt. And they are pretty cats too. Some of them are jet black, (my favorite cat color), and long coated. They'd be beautiful if well cared for. Between our harsh winters, and the coyotes that roam the woods and backyards around here, they were nearly exterminated, as there were only two females left. But then they breed again, and now there are several more. It just goes on like that year after year. Doesn't seem to be an answer. I think it is nice that you work with the ferral cats. The poor things need more people like that to help them.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

I actually think my situation is pretty ideal, now that I've got a system down that I think works.

I've decided to put the seed out on the carport roof at night where people can't see me tossing it. While there are tons of apartments overlooking that carport area, very few people actually look out their windows at all, and nobody is in very close proximity to where I feed. The closest building (mine) is 20 feet away and even if I didn't like pigeons I would not be at all bothered by the current setup. Today, the pigeons didn't come until 12:15 pm even though the seed had been there for 14 hours. They flew down, and I heard a tiny bit of noise when they arrived - the fluttering of 42 wings! - but really wouldn't have paid attention to it if I hadn't been attuned to it. They ate quietly, then flew off. The whole thing took less than 10 minutes, and anybody looking out their apartment window and seeing them out there would not have been bothered at all. They don't stay long enough to poop on it, and nobody would be bothered by the poop if they did because it's not close to anybody's apartment.

I do drop a few seeds on the cement inevitably when I'm tossing them up there because I have to lob the seeds to get them up there, but the flock doesn't fly down there to pick up the stray seeds. And if a bird does, he'll fly off if a person comes. They're nice and feral, and I intend to keep them that way.

There's a risk that more will come, but even so I think the current situation could accommodate more without anybody complaining. 

I think the biggest risk is of them nesting in the building. But nesting opportunities are limited and I am aware of the places that are inhabited by humans where they might nest. There's one fire escape that's a problem, but one of the nesting pair from that location was killed July 29th so I don't know if they'll even nest there again, and I'm going to try to work with the resident to get it pigeon-proofed.

So I'm going to continue feeding where I've been feeding. I think it will be OK. Wish me luck!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good Luck! Just keep in mind that they may not hang around now, but that could change. The pigeons that come to my place for seed don't just come and eat. They tend to hang around hoping that There will be more. If too many start hanging around, would that be a problem with the owners of the building, or the management? If you only put it out at night, and they can get used to this, then maybe they will keep coming just in the morning. If you alter this and start putting out extra at different times of the day, they will learn to hang around waiting to see if you do. I wish you the best of luck. Maybe some day you will have your own yard, and your own flock coming to it.


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, I think routine is important. Put it out at night, maybe they'll get used to coming first thing in the morning to eat. And don't vary the routine!

I don't expect that this can continue forever, I'll have to adapt if more come. Right now we're up to 20-30 at a time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good luck, and have fun!


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

So far, so good. I put the food out at night when I am giving the dog her last pee walk. The seeds make a little sound when they hit the surface of the carport, sort of like a burst of raindrops, but I don't think anybody would look out about that. Today for the second day in a row all the seeds were gone when I woke up and I didn't hear them come and eat, or leave!

When I walk to a cafe on my noon break (I work at home), I look up at the corner and have line of sight to the roof of my building which towers over the building on the corner, and I can see them all lined up on the edge of my roof and the one next door. But they're quiet, they don't poop much over the edge (I haven't seen pigeon poop dripping down from the edge of the building, or on the carport floor)...they don't stay long and nobody would mind that they were up there -or rather, nobody KNOWS, since nobody looks at my roof! I think they just hang out there hoping for a noon meal but I have stopped feeding during the day.

So, until/unless they start nesting in the building, I think I've got a nice covert system that works!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe after a while they'll get the idea that you are not going to feed them during the day, and maybe they won't hang around. Or they may, hoping that you will. What makes you think that no one else notices them on your roof?


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## SerendipityCA (May 2, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> What makes you think that no one else notices them on your roof?


Well, there's my building, and the building next door, and since they're ON those buildings, you'd have to be outside down in the carport 3 stories down, and deliberately look up at the roofline of the building, to see them there. Nobody does that. Then there's the building perpendicular. People would have to be looking out their windows, and looking UP, to see them there. I rarely see people look out their windows and when they do, they don't look up. Then there's the building facing the back of my building. I can see directly across to that building. Most people keep their shades/blinds/drapes drawn, and when they are open, they don't look out much. When they do look out, they don't look up. So basically, nobody looks at the roofline, and I can't imagine that if anybody did, they'd have a problem with pigeons sitting there quietly, on somebody else's building, 50 to 150 feet away from them!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't imagine that they would have a problem with that either. Good luck.


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## gcpickle (Oct 11, 2011)

*Going cold turkey*

I don't know if anyone will see this as I notice the dates are old but I also live in Las Vegas and have been feeding the ferals for three years in the courtyard where I live. I keep the area very clean but I just received a warning 5 weeks ago to stop feeding them It was with great difficulty that I adhered tot he warning. I had to go "cold turkey" pardon the pun and I literally cried for a few days. I had to keep my blinds closed so they didn't see me in my house. Now even though I have stoppped some of them still hang around and now I have to go before a hearing regarding the "distruction of common area property" I am floored that people would go to such measures. It makes me very angry and upset. Why are people so mean? 

I wish I lived in a place where I could care for them - especially in the summer when it is soooo hot - I used to give them clean, cool water to drink and water to bathe. It breaks my heart. Just hoping for some words of encouragement from felllow pigeon lovers/feeders. Thank you


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## longlive_pigeon (Aug 17, 2012)

Wish you good luck~ What would be the consequence if you are found guilty in the hearing~


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

gcpickle said:


> I don't know if anyone will see this as I notice the dates are old but I also live in Las Vegas and have been feeding the ferals for three years in the courtyard where I live. I keep the area very clean but I just received a warning 5 weeks ago to stop feeding them It was with great difficulty that I adhered tot he warning. I had to go "cold turkey" pardon the pun and I literally cried for a few days. I had to keep my blinds closed so they didn't see me in my house. Now even though I have stoppped some of them still hang around and now I have to go before a hearing regarding the "distruction of common area property" I am floored that people would go to such measures. It makes me very angry and upset. Why are people so mean?
> 
> I wish I lived in a place where I could care for them - especially in the summer when it is soooo hot - I used to give them clean, cool water to drink and water to bathe. It breaks my heart. Just hoping for some words of encouragement from felllow pigeon lovers/feeders. Thank you



I don't think they are trying to be mean. Just their job to keep the place up, and to eliminate anything that may get in the way of that. Pigeons leave droppings, and the more you feed, unfortunately the more pigeons you normally would get. They probably figure that the birds will be fine and find food elsewhere. I know it's hard to stop feeding them once they have come to depend on it. Hopefully they will find another source of food. Unfortunately there isn't much you can do.


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## gcpickle (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank you both for your replies. The consequence if I am found "guilty" is a $100.00 fine. 

I understand they are trying to keep the area up however I kept my area very clean - there are droppings on the overhangs that I can't get my hose to reach, believe me I have tried - however I have stopped feeding them and most of "my flock" has moved on. I adhered to their warning that they sent my landlord and now they should just drop it. 

People are mean - I see hit and injured pigeons every day in this town. The general opinion of most people here is that they are "rats with wings" - Most people don't go out of their way to help them in anyway. Makes me very sad and angry that these beautiful birds and are persecuted. 

Anyway I am glad most of them have gone because the next step will proably be pigeon control and that would break my heart to see. 

Thanks again.


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