# Rat poison in red grains



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hello everybody,

I have (again) big problems with my neighbor. She is poisoning pigeons and doves by rat poison (the red one in grains).

She puts it on her balcony (I live at 4th floor; she lives at 5th floor) and threw it also on my balcony. 

I've been reading up about that poison: it stops blood coagulation. That's horrible, animals are going to die slowly, really slowly.

Vit K1 is the only antidote: I bought two packages of vit K1 0,2 ml/mg.

Doves are more attracted by that poison than pigeons: especially one dove is really attracted by it (often she doesn't want to come to my balcony to eat what we are trying to offer her).

This is what we are doing:

- try to prevent the birds to eat the grains on my neighbor's balcony (scaring them, etc); 

- as I said I bought vit K. I asked to my vet instructions about the dosage (I just know the dosage for an individual treatment). He said it's not easy to find the right dosage for birds living and eating outside. He suggested 3 little glass vials for 0,5 kg of seed. We are trying to feed that dove (and the other birds suspected of eating poison) with vit K seed. The problem is that, as I said, the dove is more attracted by poisoned grains than by vit K seed (I also tried to colour in red some wheat using food coloring but it doesn't work...the dove was no interested...). We would like to treat her individually but it's really hard to catch her...(it would be easier to catch a pigeon: in some occasions we caught pigeons needing help on our balcony);

- I looked for news on internet about the dangers of that poison. I found an article about kindergarteners (a 4 years old child brought to nursery school some rat poison that she found in the cellar. Panic: 119 children have been brought to the hospital: blood tests, etc). I found also an article about dogs. I wrote a notice: "danger! Some rat poison in red grains has been found on some balconies (private property). That's really dangerous for children (there are many children in the building where I live), dogs and cats. In case of ingestion consult a doctor and/or a vet". I put it and the 2 articles on my building hall.

Well, the neighbor has stopped to throw poison on my balcony but she still puts it on her balcony...her own private property...so, she legally can put it there.

So, what else could we do?
How can we persuade the dove to eat the antidote? How can we help her?
How can we stop the poison? 

Any idea or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance to everybody.


EDIT: I just want to add that I explained at the end of the thread (post n. 23) how I treated a pigeon poisoned by an anticoagulant rat poison. If you need to treat a poisoned pigeon, please read my post, it could be maybe helpful.


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

If you can't work it out with the neighbor, STOP FEEDING THE BIRDS. You are putting them in danger. Find somewhere else to feed them.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

As I have to give them vit K (we saw the birds eating poison on the neighbor's balcony) I have to give them seed...it's impossible to find and to recognize that dove in the street...

The neighbor had a partner who bought dove mix and fed the birds...we saw him feeding birds. Also the son fed the birds. When they broke up she has started to hate birds..

In the neighborhood there are many pigeons, doves, seagulls, etc as everywhere. Pigeons and doves use to stay to balconies.


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## DoveSvN (Apr 4, 2013)

I remember a few years back when I used to live in an apartment building and had to deal with similar issues to what you're describing, Colombina. My neighbour absolutely hated my pigeons because he assumed they had mites or whatever and he tried everything he could to get rid of them, but to no avail. 

He would dip bread in some sort of poison and throw it over into my balcony and he would do this once or twice a week on the pretence that he was hunting rats. We eventually alerted the city council and he was given a stern warning to avoid using any sort of poison because not only can it ruin the surrounding ecosystem, but it could kill wild animals and pets that may come across the bread. This was the final blow to crush his dreams of killing my birds lol. He was never seen or heard from again... 

Point is -- Can't you notify someone of what she's doing? It might not be illegal to kill pigeons where you're from, but poison isn't something to be taken lightly, especially when there's all sorts of animals around that may get killed in the process too. She could potentially poison someone's lost pet and you'd never know.

Sort this out with your neighbour first. You shouldn't be stacking on antidotes to fix her stupid behaviour. There are plenty of other ways she could get rid of pigeons and doves without having to kill them if that's what she wanted all along. If that doesn't work, then you'll need to stop feeding the birds to discourage them from coming back.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Giving them vitamin K is not going to help. They are still going to die. They will fly off somewhere and die. Giving them K ahead of time won't help. As was already mentioned, you need to stop feeding them. You are putting them in danger by drawing them there. If you were not attracting them with food, then they wouldn't be coming there, and the neighbor wouldn't be poisoning them. I agree that it's horrible, but nothing you can do, except for try to chase them off and make the area unappealing to them. If some get poisoned and die in the meantime, that is awful, but nothing you can do. Afterwards, others won't come if you stop feeding them and scare them off.

If they stop coming around, the awful neighbor will stop poisoning them. You can't help them by trying to leave out vit. K. You are just attracting them more to the area.

I agree that the neighbor should be reported. Even hawks and other raptors, or a pet cat, if they were to catch a bird sick from poison, can get secondary poisoning. Poison is only supposed to be put out in containers that pets and other animals cannot get to it.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks DoveSvN for your advice and for sharing your bad experience with your horrible and cruel neighbor. I'm so sorry he tried to kill your pigeons..I keep my pigeons inside but I have a cat, Kira (you know her Jay  ) who loves to go on the balcony sunbathing...I read that many dogs and cats die because they eat that poison...I was so scared..

Thanks Jay for your opinion, I appreciate your honesty.

I'm going to explain better the situation.
In the neighborhood there is a community of pigeons and doves (there are also seagulls, crows, etc). In front of my building there was an abandoned building: a community of pigeons lived there. About a year ago (or less, I don't remember exactly) it was demolished. All that pigeons still live in the neighborhood.

As everywhere pigeons and doves use to stay on balconies (sunbathing, nesting, sleeping or simply relaxing themselves).
The ex boyfriend and the son of the neighbor fed the birds. We saw them ... They attired the birds on their own balcony.

Anyway, the birds are now attired by the poison: everyday (few times a day) she puts the red grains on her balcony. The doves and some pigeons come there because SHE is "feeding" them poison!!! I think she is trying to attire all the birds of the neighborhood on her balcony to poison them.

Yes, that's true, I'm trying to feed them vit K seed but, as I wrote earlier, the birds (especially one dove) are more attracted by red grains (I read that producers put attractive substance in poison); that dove goes everyday on the neighbor's balcony but she usually doesn't want to come to my balcony...I was just trying to save them because everyday I saw them eating poison there. Yes, I can stop to try to give them the antidote but the birds will continue to go there because they know they can find food there. As I wrote we are trying to prevent the birds to go there (scaring them, etc) but that's not easy because they know they can eat there...then, as you can understand, I can't spend all my day to scare birds...

I wrote a notice and put it in the hall with 2 articles I found online. She has stopped to throw poison on my balcony but she still put it on her own private property. I'm Italian so I don't know french legislation (that poisoning is happening in France). I talked to my french vet and looked for information online.

That poison (here in France called "mort aux rats") is in free sale, people can buy and use it without any problems...I read that some local authorities provide that poison to private citizens..

You are right DoveSvN: there are many other civilized ways to get rid of pigeons and doves without having to kill them. Birds repellents or deterrents are sold everywhere. If she is annoyed by birds (if any birds stay on my balcony it's not a problem for me, I just clean it regularly) she could buy a deterrent..

Anyway, I will think about any other solutions...That's horrible wait for the death of all the birds of the neighborhood...

Thanks again for all the opinion.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Here in England you have to put rat poison under cover to prevent birds and other wildlife, children also, from ingesting it. It's the law over here. Are you sure there isn't a law against just throwing it anywhere? It's very recklesss if not because it could harm people's domestic pets as well as potentially children.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would report the woman. It is cruel what she is doing. Birds and predators and even children could be endangered by her actions.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have you reported her to the authorities?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

That's a good law Freda. Probably English are more civilized than french...

Honestly I don't know the french legislation but I asked for information and looked for it online. 

Rat poison is in free sale, private citizens can buy it without any restriction. "Mort aux rat" is sold under over 1000 different names in France. 

A french group is asking for a restriction in the use of these products (because, as you all said too, they are dangerous for all the animals, the children and the environment), they would like to stop the sale of any dangerous substances. They are asking to local authorities to stop to provide free rat poison to private citizens. They are also asking to write on the poison's package where you can put it.

A national law impose to private citizens to prevent rats; if rats are found in buildings/homes citizens have to stop them. Citizens have the right to stop by themselves the rats. So, she can legally put rat poison on her own private property.

I didn't find any local rules which forbids the use of "mort aux rats" or something like that English law. Of course, I will look for more information.

I talked to a volunteer of a pigeon group, she said there is nothing we can do. Honestly I read online about many episodes of poisoning or about poison throwing everywhere (also near school or in private properties or in dogs park!) but nothing has been done...the citizens were just alerted, I mean they were told to be careful about pets and children (as I did too writing the notice that I put in the building hall).

Pigeons are not protected here in France; I know that some lawyers are working to obtain for pigeon the legal status of "pet". I hope they can reach the goal but I think it will be really hard..

Many french cities euthanize them; put glue on buildings to kill them, etc. Some years ago the city paid for the surgical sterilization (you know, that's like the castration) of 10.000 pigeons trapped all over the city, a horrible, risky and cruel practice, executed without anesthesia! This is the video choc done by the belgian association Gaia (if I'm not wrong, until 2011 that practice was executed too by the city of Bruxelles):

www.centpourcentnaturel.fr/post/2011/01/29/Sterilisation-des-pigeons-pour-la-
Ville-de-Bruxelles-l-horreur



I can tell you more about that episode, my vet explained me everything. There was a petition to stop the city but...they did it the same...

So, as you can understand, I can't report the neighbor here..

If I were in Italy I would report her.
We have an apartment in an Italian sea town; usually we never go there. We didn't know that some pigeons chose my balconies as a refuge: they came there sleeping, resting and also nesting. In 2015 I came there and I found 5 dead pigeons on my balconies. I talked to the vet and wrote to the Italian animal group ENPA. As ENPA (and the vet too) suspected a poisoning they suggested me to report what has happened: I lodged a complaint to Carabinieri (Italian police). They talked to the building manager. I have never found other dead pigeons.

Anyway, I will look for more information and think about other solution. Thanks again.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

www.centpourcentnaturel.fr/post/201...-pigeons-pour-la-Ville-de-Bruxelles-l-horreur


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Different businesses do kill pigeons here with poison also, But people are supposed to put rat poison in bait stations for mice and rats on their property. I doubt that where you are people are just allowed to throw it anywhere they please. I would report them anyway.
Other than that there really isn't anything you can do. Just try not to attract any with food, and maybe the neighbor will stop. Sorry there isn't a better solution.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I agree Jay, that's strange but I asked for information also to my french vet and to the french volunteer. 

There are rules about businesses.
There are not restriction (like the English law told by Freda or as in your area) for private citizens.

Of course, they can't throw it in private properties of other people: in fact, after I put the notice in the hall (I wrote that some rat poison has been found on some balconies PRIVATE PROPERTIES) she has stopped to throw it on my balcony (of course, she knows that I know...). But I have to say that I read an article about poison threw on the window of an old lady. Well, nothing has been done (maybe because she didn't know who was the guilty..). The neighbors were just alerted about the danger.

So, as I was told by french people, it's not possible to report her...

Anyway, as I said I will look and ask for more information, if I discover something interesting and useful I will update you.

That's so sad....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I find it ridiculous that the authorities there do not care about peoples pets, or non targeted wild life. Or even the safety of children.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I agree Jay.

That's also ridiculous that producers write on the package of these products that they are not attractive for pets, other animals and humans...I read that they are the second cause of intoxication for dogs in France...

I really hope that the french group could win the battle for new laws about the use and sale of these products...


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Is PETA active there?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Great idea cwebster, thanks so much for your suggestion.

I have never heard about PETA before. I looked for it online. I will send them an email asking information about poison.
I will tell them about another problem too.

Here in France it is legally sold a product called "repellent gel" like this one:

www.home-boulevard.com/anti-nuisibl...es-pigeons-900-g-30385-bsi-5420046630385.html

Producers say that is just a repellent (to prevent the birds to land) without any danger for pigeons and any other birds but the truth is that it is like a glue. Months ago the same neighbor put that "gel" on her balcony killing birds (we saved 2 of them: they fell down from 5th floor but fortunately they didn't die). Fortunately she had to cover most of the glue because the birds were falling down on the people sitting at the cafe..they were annoyed by dead birds...I covered the rest..

Anyway, I wrote to pigeon groups and I discovered the existence of this terrible legal gel (before I thought she used a common strong glue or an illegal glue used by hunters as my vet told me). I discovered that in a town not far from where I live local authorities put glue on the roof of a building killing many pigeons (some of them died trying to escape and falling down, other died of starvation on the roof). I and the volunteer wrote to many animal groups but no one helped us. We would like to start a battle to stop the sale of these products.

Anyway, I will update you.

Thanks again cwebster


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Colombina, please alert PETA to what you are telling us and see if they can put a stop to the cruelty.
https://www.peta.org/about-peta/contact-peta/report-cruelty/
You might want to also ask SHARK if they can help.
https://www.sharkonline.org/index.php/about-shark


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Today I sent an email to PETA France.
I'm waiting for the answer, I will update you.

Can I ask help to SHARK even if I'm in France?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dont know. Would definitely contact them and ask. Or they might have other ideas.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Ok, I will try.

Thanks so much


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hello everybody, I'm going to give you a short update and to share with you my experience in treating a pigeon poisoned by an anticoagulant rat poison.

Update:

PETA France didn't answer to my email.

My neighbor - she was a rental - moved some months ago (the apartment is still vacant). Some times before, she had a great water leak in the apartment so she had to move furniture and other stuff from inside the flat to the balcony. She consequently stopped to put the poison there...

We rescued and successfully treated Bruna, one of the pigeons who ate the poison. I'm going to share my experience because it could be helpful to any other member who is dealing with an anticoagulant rat poison.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

The only existing antidote is vitamin K1.

Following my vet instructions I treated Bruna with Vit. K1 2mg/0,2ml drinking solution for human babies (both in Italy and France a prescription is not needed to buy it). 

Dosage: half a vial on alternate days. Each time I added to it two or three drops of apple juice.

We administered it for 15 days (as I said earlier, we gave it on alternate days).

6 weeks after the ingestion of the poison we noticed on her foot an hematoma. We talked to the vet: that was a sign of poisoning.

An anticoagulant poison prevents vit.K1 from working in the body. Vit K1 is needed for the activation of clotting factors: clotting factors are needed to stop active bleeding. Symptoms are not immediate, an anticoagulant poison kills in a long term, it takes several days to deplete vit K1 (each generation of poison works in a different term).

We administered a second course of vit. K1 for 2 weeks (same dosage: half a vial on alternate days) and put on the foot a cream for hematoma (initially 3 times a day, then 2). We put inside her cage a soft pillow to prevent any other trauma. I suggest to put it immediately in the cage (unfortunately, as we didn't have any previous experience, we didn't think about it) because even the smallest trauma can start a lethal bleeding (we think that Bruna hit her foot inside her cage, maybe trying to escape from it). 

As often there is not an external bleeding but just an INTERNAL bleeding, you have to be careful to symptoms like a visible hematoma, pale mouth, lack of appetite, weakness, etc.

Fortunately Bruna is still alive (she also had a bad canker that we treated with Spartrix): she is doing really well and, even if disabled (she has a curled foot), she has a happy life!

If someone needs any other information, I'm here!

Photos:

- vit. K1;
- cream for hematoma;
- hematoma on Bruna's foot;
- Bruna at the end of the treatments;


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Here is a recent photo of Bruna.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks you for the update. Good job with her!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks so much Jay 😊


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