# Lost two homers with 1977 bands on them.



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Hey all. I lost two yearling racing homers, that have the old metal 1977 bands on them. Obviously the bands would not be able to be traced back to me. I don't remember the band numbers. But how many birds with 1977 bands can there be around.

Please contact me if they show up in your loft.

The bands are metalic grey in color. The birds are both blue bars. I am in Ohio and would pick them up in person wherever they might be. They were very late hatches last year. Late hatches always seem to get lost if trained. There is just something about homers not being born in the spring, that causes them to be "missing something", in their homing ability.

Thanks.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

not true, i have 2 homer who are born in the August and both are very homing. toss them from a 30miles with my train homers and both came back. There are many factors involve a homing pigeon not returning home. maybe a predator attack, maybe it doesnt like you loft, maybe its a crossbreed. etc.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Anecdotal evidence. 30 miles is not very far. I have a half homer/ half Catalonian Tumbler that has homed from 100 miles. As to the "maybe it doesn't like your loft" comment. That is rude and presumptive. A pigeon will like a window ledge in an abandoned building. Why would it not like my loft, where it is taken care of like a princess? It is the only home it has ever known. Of course it likes its home.

My mentor told me long ago, that a young bird not born in the spring, is just "missing something", and rarely works out as good racers. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I have found what he told me, to be a lot more correct than incorrect. 

Good luck with your late hatches. If they don't come home from 200 miles, I promise I won't say, "maybe they just don't like you".


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

there are many possibilities and i am sorry if i have offend you in anyway but i just saying from my experience. Of course i have never seen or know how your loft looks like ( probably its heaven) but these factors i brought up are just assumptions. 

and i just dont believe in the theory that a latch hatch have less homing ability. Your mentor may be correct probably from his experience raising racing pigeon. Also like many people also brought up the theory that temperature can have impact to fertile eggs.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Late hatches that aren't flown early as young birds might be strong on the wind so that might be a possibility of why they got lost?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have never had any luck with late hatches. To me they are useless as fliers, but can be great for their genetic value in the breeding loft. They always seemed to be kind of stupid compared to the other birds. And I'm not talking about birds from another loft that are strong on the wing. Birds I bred myself and although they flew fine around the loft, never amounted to much down the road. Gotta train them really hard and somewhat slow I suppose.


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

conditionfreak said:


> As to the "maybe it doesn't like your loft" comment. That is rude and presumptive. A pigeon will like a window ledge in an abandoned building. Why would it not like my loft, where it is taken care of like a princess? It is the only home it has ever known. Of course it likes its home.


Conditionfreak: I do not believe sevensouls meant to be rude. I think you can provide your birds the atmosphere and service of the Ritz-Carlton, but if they do not get along socially with the rest of the flock, they may tend to fly-off. Some birds tend to get "bullied" more than others, and some have trouble finding a mate. I think those have more of a tendency to fly off to look for conditions more suitable to them.

What do you consider a late hatch? Birds born after May?

By the way, good luck retrieving your birds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

You just caught me at a bad time, and I took offense.

I believe that pigeons are not like humans, in that a human may decide it does not like its home, and move on to other parts.

Homing pigeons do not decide they don't like it where they were born and raised, and just leave. They may get lost while training or racing. They may get injured, were sick when ssent, or follow a large group of pigeons belonging to someone who lives far away. Or they may get chased far away by a predator bird. Heck, they may hit a wire or be affected by a cell phone tower or solar flares.

Any of that may happen. But, a homing pigeon does not just decide it does not like where it was born and raised, and just take off. Has never happened and will not ever happen, in my opinion.

And even if you are right and I am wrong. There is no way in heck that you could conclusively prove it. That gives me the edge in the debate. 

My mentor has been involved in homing pigeons since the early 50's and is a master of genetics and pigeon raising, training and racing. He is the former Director of the Cincinnati Museum of Natural History. He knows more about pigeons that any pigeon person I have ever met, and I have met a lot of pigeon people. Additionally, every flyer I personally know feels the same way about late hatches (after summer is gone). A May hatch is not a late hatch in this neck of the woods. Maybe in Florida or somewhere down south it is. My own breeding of late hatches confirms what he has said. My mentor has made it a personal challenge to "make it work" with late hatches. He has had success less than one percent of his attempts. By the way, his loft is like the Ritz Carleton. Much better than I will ever have.

I think if you think about it for a couple of seconds, you will reflect that I am talking about TWO late hatches that are missing. Now, what are the odds that two birds banded at the same time, both decided they did not like their home and both decided to take just off because home sucked? Pretty slim I would say.

I trained them out to 50 miles and they did not come back. One last week and one this week. The only things these two birds had in common were:

1. Both were born and raised here.
1 1/2 Both are homing pigeons. They are called that for a reason. They go home, if they are able too.
2. Banded at approximately the same time.
3. Both are blue bars.
4. Both lived in the same loft, and were fed the same things.
5. Both were banded with 1977 AU bands, because I just thought it would be cool to do.
6. Both were very late hatches of last year. Fall hatches.

Both of their nest mates are gone also, but they have current AU bands on them and therefore can be traced back to me, if a caring person finds them. These two can not. Hence this thread.

I am sorry if I am in a bad mood. But it is TAX DAY, and I hate, hate, hate TAX DAY.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I think a homing pigeon will leave if it does not love its home I think they come home if they love it. On the topic though I know a lot of people that believe that late hatches aren't good fliers, they just seem stupid and not very smart. Almost like a young bird that if you wait too long to let it out it has no common sense almost and isn't smart.


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## Dmax06 (May 10, 2011)

They may be born "missing something" maybe not. My opinion is that most late hatches do not get the time spent reinforcing their natural homing ability that the earlier hatched birds do. Most people are not training them at the time in those birds life that they normally would be taken down the road if they were born earlier. Maybe they are too busy racing YB's and don't have the time, maybe they are getting burnt out with all the training by this time of year, I don't know. 

For a bird born in say July that means it probably was not old enough to be trained much until late Sept at the earliest and winter is only about a month and a half away. The bird then sits all winter and does not fly again until say February.

So a bird born July 1 is 7 months old at the end of Jan. and has been flown about 3 and 1/2 months of that time. If you think about it in terms of a child or say a puppy what do you think they would have learned by the time they were that age and had been left alone 1/2 their life.

I don't know the answer it was just a thought


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

yes you have a very strong point there, i couldnt agree more and yes tax days does suck.

I figured that you got moody when i suggest that "birds may not like their home" and im very sorry because it just an assumption. You ask the board for help and discuss your matter and i just give my opinion. 

Anyway, another factor, since you said they are both 1/2 homer...i assume you meant they both are crossbreed with something else right? In that case can one assume that their homing ability may not be strong and somehow they could got lost on the way home.

yes, if i ever saw the birds, surely i will contact you right away.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Never said they were half homer. I said they are 100% homer. You confused my talking about the half breed that I mentioned, after you suggested they "may" not be pure homer.

I also never asked for any discussion about my missing birds. I just asked for a contact if anyone encounters them. But of course, discussion is what this site is all about, so I do not have a problem with that. It was the "suggestion" that "maybe" my loft (their home) was somehow unsatisfactory.

But....it's all good. I hope I find them.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

> 1 1/2 Both are homing pigeons. They are called that for a reason. They go home, if they are able too.


i was reading this. sorry if that what you meant they both are full homer blooded.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

You may want to call nearby lofts and see if they showed up there, also call the animal shelter if someone dropped them off there, and also post some ads on craigslist or somewhere else in case anyone finds them.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Haven`t seen a stray HOMER here since last Sept....Once in a while a feral will see my birds flying,and hook up for a few minutes....If I trap a 1977 banded bird,I will treat it like a GFL banded bird,and put it in the stock loft....hahahahahaha!!!!!!! Hope you find them !!! Alamo


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## blue ice (Mar 23, 2011)

Good Luck on retrieving your birds. Hopefully you can get them back. You mentioned that even the nest mates were gone.

Personally, I will no longer breed the parents if their offspring gets lost after training them even if they are late hatches.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> You just caught me at a bad time, and I took offense.
> 
> I believe that pigeons are not like humans, in that a human may decide it does not like its home, and move on to other parts.
> 
> ...


 I agree in that I don't think it could be proved either way, but I beg to differ with you. I doubt that in this case, your birds just decided they didn't "like" the loft, but I do think that pigeons can become stressed by their loft environment, and that can contribute to pigeons not returning to "home". 

A bit off topic perhaps, but since we don't really know how a homing pigeon finds it way home, or for that matter why ? I think it is possible that loft conditions do contribute to a pigeon's "love" of home. The "evidence" I offer, is I own a separate loft section in my yard in which I conduct various experiments. One of the things I have done over the years with this section is I have started with different numbers of YB's at the start of the race season. I think the record was 55 YB's in this small 6 x 12 section. Other years there were like 48, 40, 33, 25 etc. so all over the place. What I have found is that there is a certain number of pigeons that can be housed in harmony in a loft, and no matter how many one may start with, the birds will leave or "get lost" until the more ideal number of pigeons remain, which are then "happy". 

So those fanciers who raise a huge number of birds "because of losses", actually contribute towards a self fulling prophesy in that larger losses will now indeed occur, because of over crowding. So it is my theory if you will, that pigeons will find themselves a new home if the loft environment is not to their liking. They will reduce their numbers like magic, until the loft is comfortable for the remaining pigeons. For me this "reduction of unhappy campers" typically occurs around the 130 mile release point for me. So start with 20 or 55, by that release point, there will be about 20 pigeons in that section, regardless of how many extra birds were stuffed in there at the start. We call them "losses" and tell ourselves they all hit a wire or got shot, but maybe, just maybe, some of them just decided it was too much effort to fly back where they were hatched and raised. Some just maybe see another fancier's loft, or a barn as more suitable place to live and raise a family ? 

There might just be a reason why Mother Nature decided to have unhappy rock pigeons fly further down the coast and take up new residence there. The reason just might be to insure that the genetic pool does not become overly concentrated ? Certainly wouldn't be the first time that a male of a species decided that there were more opportunities away from his home where he was raised.

Just a thought.....


 

PS. Hope you are able to get them back.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> I think a homing pigeon will leave if it does not love its home I think they come home if they love it. On the topic though I know a lot of people that believe that late hatches aren't good fliers, they just seem stupid and not very smart. Almost like a young bird that if you wait too long to let it out it has no common sense almost and isn't smart.


 I didn't see your post until I posted my previous one. I agree with your line of thinking. We do everything we can to motivate the birds to fly home faster. Be it a nice perch, feed, or an attractive mate and a nest box. We do all we can to reinforce this "love" of home. At the same time fanciers unintentionally do just the opposite. Their birds are over crowed and always fighting for their perch and with their neighbors. Then to make matters worse, the fancier may handle them roughly and manages them from the pigeon's perspective to increase stress. From some loft's I have seen, which are damp and overcrowded, it must seem like a kind of pigeon hell. Maybe such a loft goes a long way in explaining why that particular fancier has so many "losses" ! At the first opportunity to link up with another colony somewhere, this fancier's birds are history !!!  The fancier most likely will grumble and mumble about K factors, hunters, wires, solar flares, and who all knows what, as to why his birds got "lost". Maybe they just flew the coop, thinking "I ain't going back to that dirty joint ", I'd rather sleep on a bridge or underpass somewhere.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Warren made a great point on losses....Many fanciers DO breed to many YB`s...When I started racing back in 1984,I was breeding 40/45 yb`s.....I have 40 perches in my yb section...The more I DECREASED the YB`s I bred,the fewer losses I had....The "Happy in the Loft" idea is valid...The more room a pigeon has for itself,or rather,to have a favorite perch,without fighting for it every minute of the day,is crutcial for the mental well being of the pigeon....Also,by breeding less pigeons,you will be FORCED only to keep the BEST 6 or 7 of the BEST pigeons you have...All the other pairs will have to GO....By only breeding from your best 6 pair of pigeons,YOU WILL HAVE BETTER yb`s,smarter yb`s,happier yb`s,healthier yb`s etc etc etc....You will also save on FEED,and other items you will need around to keep the birds healthy....You will not need to keep 15 to 20 pairs of breeders....If you fly old birds also,you can have 6 to 8 pair of Flyer/Breeder quality pigeons on your race team....In that way,you will really have about 15 pair of Breeders,and over the winter,you will only have to FEED 30 to 34 pigeons total....I had 30 pigeons in my two lofts over this past winter...Alot less work also cleaning up after 30 birds.....Alamo


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I agree in that I don't think it could be proved either way, but I beg to differ with you. I doubt that in this case, your birds just decided they didn't "like" the loft, but I do think that pigeons can become stressed by their loft environment, and that can contribute to pigeons not returning to "home".
> 
> A bit off topic perhaps, but since we don't really know how a homing pigeon finds it way home, or for that matter why ? I think it is possible that loft conditions do contribute to a pigeon's "love" of home. The "evidence" I offer, is I own a separate loft section in my yard in which I conduct various experiments. One of the things I have done over the years with this section is I have started with different numbers of YB's at the start of the race season. I think the record was 55 YB's in this small 6 x 12 section. Other years there were like 48, 40, 33, 25 etc. so all over the place. What I have found is that there is a certain number of pigeons that can be housed in harmony in a loft, and no matter how many one may start with, the birds will leave or "get lost" until the more ideal number of pigeons remain, which are then "happy".
> 
> ...


 Personally I highly doubt release points or distances are a factor in how happy the birds may be in a loft that is over crowded , if they were that unhappy I think they would leave far sooner then being released at a certain distance.To me it would come down to your birds are just not good or cut out for homing at those distances and maybe your breeding pairs arent up to the task of breeding offspring that are cut out for racing .


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmm....First off. I would find it simply unbelievable that Warren has ANY birds bred in his lofts that would have a hard time coming home from 130 miles. Or even 350 miles.

Secondly, my point about my birds is that I only lost the four that were very late hatches. ONLY THOSE FOUR the entire old bird training season thus far. Our old bird races start this weekend, and I have been training them 37 to 55 miles every other day for the last three weeks. I have only lost those four late hatches.

Now what are the odds that those particular four are the ones that decided they didn't like the loft they live in? Possible for sure (anything is possible), but....

Thirdly (is that a word?), the loft can hold 40 birds (forty perches) and I only had 26 in it since last season ended. Why didn't those "unhappy" birds take off when they were just routing, prior to being taken down the road?

Lastly, I repeat my original statement. I do not believe a homing pigeon EVER just leaves home or does not come back home, if they can, because home is an unhappy place. Even if there is a bully bird there that picks on them a lot, they will still come home. They are homing pigeons. That is what they do. They do not have the skills nor the inclination, to attempt to live anywhere else. Now, every once in a while a bird or three will end up in someone elses loft because they followed the crowd home from a race, or they just got lost and found a refuge with food and a roof. But they do NOT start home from a training toss or a race, and in flight, decide they would rather find another home. They also DO NOT sit on their perch, planning the "great escape" the next time I take them on a training toss. That is silly IMO. They want to come home, to their home. Each and every time. Some just do not "have it" to do so. Just like people, homing pigeons can be stupid and/or lack the skills needed to find their way home. Put me in the woods and I know how to find the way back to civilization. Most people would just wander around until they died, or got lucky. I believe that being a very late hatch contributes greatly to this "stupidness" in their homing abilities.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> hmmm....First off. I would find it simply unbelievable that Warren has ANY birds bred in his lofts that would have a hard time coming home from 130 miles. Or even 350 miles.
> 
> Secondly, my point about my birds is that I only lost the four that were very late hatches. ONLY THOSE FOUR the entire old bird training season thus far. Our old bird races start this weekend, and I have been training them 37 to 55 miles every other day for the last three weeks. I have only lost those four late hatches.
> 
> ...


How is it that you are asking folks to keep an eye out for lost pigeons, and what you are getting in return, is attacked and accused of sub par loft and pigeons....I dont get it! I hope you find your birds, and I agree with you on your late hatch theory.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Long ago,I had many books on racing pigeons....Rotundo,and all the other experts...There were a few words on FLY AWAYS......There was speculation that if a loft was overcrouded with yb`s,the birds got the "lets start a NEW colony",somewhere else,that would be better...Alot of animals CHASE their offspring AWAY,after they have matured....I have always noticed that if my yb`s would go into the OB section,they would be beatup,untill they go back unto the yb section...I don`t mean sqeaker yb`s,but yb`s 6/7 weeks old and older....Why don`t they want them in their section ?? Could it be that they are content with the amount of pigeons in that section...And they DO NOT want anymore birds to fight over food and perches with....Alamo


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm not trying to attack you and say your loft is bad, etc. I agree that late hatches are not as intelligent and seem to get lost more.


But I was just saying that I believe that pigeons come home because they love home. For example last year I had a pigeon routing for hours, went on 7 (2 miles 3 times, 8 miles once, 10 miles twice, 15 miles once) training tosses and on the 8th training toss which was its second 15 mile toss it did not comeback. Three weeks later he is hanging out by my loft with 2 ferals, I opened up the trap for him and went to work when I came home he wasn't in there I never saw him again. Obviously he knew how to come back but didn't because he didn't want to IMHO.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I think the overcrowding and leaving the loft theory is a bust and here is my reason why .Last year I had 5 birds that were not mine come in with my flock at different times of the year, those birds the owners didnt want back and I never stopped flying them with my birds from the day they arrived . My loft was very packed with birds and they just added to the overcrowdedness that was already there. Now tell me why they didnt leave when they supposedly left their lofts due to being overcrowded ? I would stick with the late hatch theory it makes more sense and I hope you get your birds back .


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Why can we not just accept that there's too many things that can happen to assume it's just one?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Why can we not just accept that there's too many things that can happen to assume it's just one?


Now what fun would that be ? 

Besides, I can see from some of the posts, that some writers are confused with concepts such as "cause and effect", not even sure if I could articulate what would be necessary to explain to some members how one could set up a basic experiment to see how loft environment may effect returns from races or training tosses. One writer suggested that my theory on how overcrowding can contribute to losses, suggesting my ten years of research and data should be discarded because one year he added five pigeons to his loft and no birds failed to return home, and thus he reasons, overcrowding does not contribute to losses.  Perhaps the subject of another thread ?

I have no idea why the birds which are the subject of this thread, failed to return home. Could be a hundred possible guesses as to what may have happened. Perhaps as many guesses as to how and why pigeons typically do return home. If we don't know how or why they return home in the first place, how could we possible all arrive at the reason as to why these particular two are currently MIA ?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Warren, would you consider answering a few question about the results of your trials for me? 

1. You mentioned the test loft as a 6x12 section for YB. Was there an 8' ceiling?
2. In this section, I assume it was perches only, no boxes. What type of perches did you use? 
3. Knowing your experience I assume there was significant aviary space available to the birds. What size was the aviary and what type of access did the birds have (unrestricted/timed/etc)?
4. With the understanding that there is a +/- factor with living animals, what was the mean result you arrived at? 

I only ask as I was thinking of a similar project using a smaller loft (4x4) thereby requiring fewer birds I have an assumption formed in my head about the results and wouldn't mind avoiding reinventing the wheel if your work lines up with my plans. 

Thank you.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Never said they were half homer. I said they are 100% homer. You confused my talking about the half breed that I mentioned, after you suggested they "may" not be pure homer.
> 
> I also never asked for any discussion about my missing birds. I just asked for a contact if anyone encounters them. But of course, discussion is what this site is all about, so I do not have a problem with that. It was the "suggestion" that "maybe" my loft (their home) was somehow unsatisfactory.
> 
> But....it's all good. I hope I find them.


It is a little bit funny. You did ask folks to keep an eye out for a couple of pigeons which will look much to young to be wearing a 1977 band, and it did sort of veer off onto all kinds of possible explanations as to why pigeons would return home. Including maybe it's because your pigeons might only be 1/2 homer !! 

My rantings were not directed at you, but simply wanted to share how I noticed that additional stress on the bird's appears to influence returns, and the example of stress I mentioned was "over crowding". I got distracted by one of the comments and it set my mind off on loft conditions affecting their desire to return home, which should be a different thread. As I don't think my discussion of "love of home" etc, or lack thereof has anything to do with you or your loft. It does sort of crack me up as to how some threads just sort of develop a life of their own, and the party who starts the thread begins to wonder how they got on trial, as comments sometimes come across as "ya got junk birds" or "you don't know how to train"...or something to that effect. 
I think it is the medium, and it has it's limitations. If we were all sitting around a table, the tone, facial expression, nodding of the head etc. would all contribute to the communication. 

I may have dropped the ball in this thread, and may have actually contributed to taking the conversation away from locating the lost birds and onto theories of overcrowding etc. So, for that I apologize.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jaysen said:


> Warren, would you consider answering a few question about the results of your trials for me?
> 
> 1. You mentioned the test loft as a 6x12 section for YB. Was there an 8' ceiling?
> 2. In this section, I assume it was perches only, no boxes. What type of perches did you use?
> ...


Start another thread and I will respond. Some of the information is proprietary information, but I will share what I can without giving away trade secrets.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Thread started at http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/smithfamilyloft-over-crowding-study-60973.html

Thank you.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Hmm first asking for lost pigeons now this... wonder how that happened.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Guys please stop it. 

Conditionfreak was offended to what i said about his birds not returning. And he claimed that he was not in a good mood when he read my comment. The fact that i brought up some assumptions about birds (racing pigeon) not coming back home due to birds doesnt like its home and from there its sparked this huge mess.

So please let it go, this is getting way off topic.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Hey. It is just people talking. That is what this site is for.

I hold no animosity or grudge against anyone here.

MOST thread themes tend to veer off course. That is becuase we are human. We have many more flaws than homing pigeons. You can mostly count on them to do their best to do what they do. Come straight home.

We humans, on the the otherhand. Well....let me just say that we humans delight in veering off course. It makes for a variety in our day, that we all want. And sometimes need.

My taxes got paid five hours before I needed to pay them, by law. I should be in a better mood now, but I am not. Other things are bringing me down. I have some sick young birds and my first old bird race of the season is Sunday, and "they" are thinking about cancelling it because so few are going to fly it. Few are going to participate because it does not count for average speed. We have dozens and dozens of flyers in our combine. Why did they make it not count towards average speed? Not sure. I am sending every old bird I have. I have 22. I will let you know how many decide to find a "better" home on race day.



Ha Ha Ha. Just messing with ya. 

Veering off course again. How many of your combines issue plaques to race winners? Mine does. No diplomas, just plaques to hang on the wall.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well at least you have an old bird season, half of our club wants to become young bird specialists and the rest just don't fly. It's really hard to want to have a race with just 2 lofts, we are still members of the husker hawkeye combine so at least they will count after we get to 400 miles.
Dave


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

That's crazy it doesn't count for average speed?! The only races that don't count in our club are money races. All that happens in my club is you get your name written on a plaque for winning average speed, and diplomas according to how the birds did.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Club Races without at least 3 members with lofts on their own individual property,cannot get credit for race wins etc....Check out IF & AU rules....Alamo


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Now what fun would that be ?
> 
> Besides, I can see from some of the posts, that some writers are confused with concepts such as "cause and effect", not even sure if I could articulate what would be necessary to explain to some members how one could set up a basic experiment to see how loft environment may effect returns from races or training tosses. One writer suggested that my theory on how overcrowding can contribute to losses, suggesting my ten years of research and data should be discarded because one year he added five pigeons to his loft and no birds failed to return home, and thus he reasons, overcrowding does not contribute to losses.  Perhaps the subject of another thread ?
> 
> I have no idea why the birds which are the subject of this thread, failed to return home. Could be a hundred possible guesses as to what may have happened. Perhaps as many guesses as to how and why pigeons typically do return home. If we don't know how or why they return home in the first place, how could we possible all arrive at the reason as to why these particular two are currently MIA ?


 Do you really think most lofts dont want their lost birds back because they feel that their birds think their loft was over crowded ??? lol yeah ok


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Alamo said:


> Club Races without at least 3 members with lofts on their own individual property,cannot get credit for race wins etc....Check out IF & AU rules....Alamo


AU rules say you need 5 lofts, so once we get to 400 miles we fly with the combine. And it is a hard combine to win in we are over 300 miles wide and over 140 miles deep. I'm on the far east end and the shortest member. My Fabry's can hold their own on the 500 and 600 mile races, I'v had 2nd and 4th and in the top 20 quite a few times.
Dave


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> AU rules say you need 5 lofts, so once we get to 400 miles we fly with the combine. And it is a hard combine to win in we are over 300 miles wide and over 140 miles deep. I'm on the far east end and the shortest member. My Fabry's can hold their own on the 500 and 600 mile races, I'v had 2nd and 4th and in the top 20 quite a few times.
> Dave


well very impressive , you should be proud at your standings with your awesome birds ,good luck i the future too love hearing about peoples results.


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