# Is the baby Neglected?



## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

So, my birds have hatched another baby. *praying this one survives* but the mother is more focused on sitting on the 2nd egg. which isnt fertile. I looked in for a moment and she is sitting on the egg while the baby is peeping and crawling (squirming) around the nest behind her. I also noticed they had found a thin string and had put it in the nest as nesting material so I lifted the mother up to remove it and set her on the edge of the nest incase she didnt realize the baby wasnt under her and she climbs back in the nest and scoots the egg under her and kind of half sits on the baby but doesnt make an effort to cover him up. I have seen her feed him yesterday but i was away today and im not sure if they have fed him today. Do you think i should remove the egg? Im afraid that if I do she will leave the nest all together. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I would check in regular intervals whether the squab is getting fed. A lot of squirming and crawling may be because the squab is not getting fed adequately. 

I understand your concern of the hen leaving the nest if you take out the other egg. Remove both parents for a moment from the nest box and try placing the squab right next, close and touching the other egg, the hen should cover the squab then. What is the situation with the cock ?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

GET RID OF THE INFERTILE EGG!!! Dave


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

thank you for the replies
I rarely see the cock on the nest. only sometimes in the early morning. The baby seems to be doing ok this moring its still moving around though. So i guess they are atleast feeding it some. And the hen was setting on top of it this time.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If that baby is not getting enough to eat, and you do't see that many poopies...you need to intervene and hand feed with formula, making sure the baby is warm and read instructions carefully on the formula. The baby may sucumb quickly if it is not getting enough to eat and not warm...and complicate that with it gowing into its growth spurt-which requires optimum quantity as well as loads of nutrients.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

leave the egg, make sure baby has a full crop and is active..if not, intervene. The egg is really a non issue, it can be taken out in two weeks when it seems the baby is going to survive.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

im going to check on the baby now. How do i tell if the crop is full? It always seems to be like a bubble. Should I attempt to take a picture of it? I have been trying to leave it alone for the most part. If need be is there a way to "make" formula? there really isnt any where that i know of that sells bird forumla.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

ok, i checked in and the cock was on the nest. I looked at the baby and could definitly tell it was fed. The crop was full. I never have seen it full before because its usually looks like a clear-ish bubble but this was a solid mass of mushy yellow-ish color. So i guess thats a good think. As far as poop I cant really tell. The parents both poop in the nest. I was going to clean out the nest but i didnt have anything handy and I didnt want to disturb them anymore then I had to. So im slightly relieved now. I still left the egg even though the cock paid no attention to it and only sat on the baby. I think maybe he cares more then the hen.

I just wanted to add in that the baby was born on the 15th. So its 4 days old. Its still the size it was when it was born.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Squabs should grow in 4 days time putting on size compared to the first hatch day. But since now it is getting fed well lets hope the little one catches up fast. Moreover the second egg was said to be infertile, so both parents will be feeding this youngster for some weeks, so he/she should catch up fine. Good luck


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## sundar1986 (Nov 5, 2009)

dear dovelove..
i am so happy for u tat u manage to get baby...i pray tat ur baby will be very healthy and energetic...mine too hatched on 15th only...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sounds like things are going well, I think pigeon squabs can grow a bit faster than RN doves so as long as he is getting fed...he should be fine, unless there is a sickness we do not know about...we won't go there as there seems not to be problemo at this point. keep fingers crossed. if he lives two or three weeks, I would say it is good chance this one will make it. you can take the egg out in a about two weeks, just it case it might get broken.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

He still peeping today.  5 days. this is the longest life span I've had so far.  Im crossing everything for this little guy. Fingers, toes and eyes.  I changed out the nest last night and when holding the baby I guess it was slightly bigger then a newborn. but just barely. I didnt get a picture of it as a newborn but it was tha same size as the baby picture i took from the last hatching. I hope I get to see this little one grow up.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I usually do not even mess with the nest at all untill they are about two or three weeks old, best to keep things the same as possible, a bit of poop won't hurt anything. just a peek two times a day to check the crop...you do not want to throw off the parents with you being in there cleaning right now.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

yah. I wasnt going to but there was just SO much poop that the pile was bigger then the baby. I waited until they were both out of the nest to do it. Im not going to do it again for a few weeks. Hopefully since the baby is there they wont poop in the nest as much and just let the baby be the only one doing it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> yah. I wasnt going to but there was just SO much poop that the pile was bigger then the baby. I waited until they were both out of the nest to do it. Im not going to do it again for a few weeks. Hopefully since the baby is there they wont poop in the nest as much and just let the baby be the only one doing it.


hopefully they won't be thown off by the poop being gone..... they really do not like change... esp in the beginning. you should see all the poop in a pigeons nest before the first change.... but that is the way of pigeons...and doves too I would think....lol..


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

lol. im sure i can scoop some of the bottom and dump it in there. They poop so much :O I have to clean the cage almost every day because it gets so bad. Who knew that much could come out of two little birds.  
im stuck at the campus right now doing homework. blek. I have a question though. Is a paper towel too slippery for the baby? The last thing I want is for it to live and then end up with a splayed leg. D: That would be awful. I used to give them sticks and twigs to put in the nest but one of the babys they had ended up getting stuck under the sticks. I know some members use shredded up newspaper or index cards. That would have the same grip as a paper towel right? Im just curious. Ill start leaving stuff in the floor of their cage if you think i should.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

After one week, I clean the poops out of the box daily and clean the nest if it gets dirty. And I have never had a problem. Good grief, don't put poop back in! They'll be fine. You can buy Timothy hay packaged at most pets shops. Very clean. Great for nesting. You can even put a piece of that rubber stuff that comes on a roll for shelving, on the very bottom under the hay if you like. Gives good traction for the baby. You know, the kind with the hole in it. It's great to stop things from sliding, even little bird feet!
By the way, just about all pet shops sell the baby bird formula now a days.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I was kidding about scooping it back in  There's only a few pet shops around here and they dont sell bird formula. I noticed that when i went on a grit hunt. I dont think that its going to be needed now though since i can tell they are feeding him. On hand I have this moss stuff. I had it in their nest before but with all their pooping it became quite a mess and a previous hatchling got tangled up in it. I still have about 1/4 of a 20lbs bag of corn cob bedding. Its left over from before i switched to sand. I wont be able to go out and get the rubber stuff until tomorrow. I have a few days until its a week old and I wasnt planning on disturbing them any more until the baby gets a little bigger so I have a few days to get things if I need to. Im currently unemployed so if i can use something I already have then that would be better. Thanks to all for your tips and advice.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> I was kidding about scooping it back in  There's only a few pet shops around here and they dont sell bird formula. I noticed that when i went on a grit hunt. I dont think that its going to be needed now though since i can tell they are feeding him. On hand I have this moss stuff. I had it in their nest before but with all their pooping it became quite a mess and a previous hatchling got tangled up in it. I still have about 1/4 of a 20lbs bag of corn cob bedding. Its left over from before i switched to sand. I wont be able to go out and get the rubber stuff until tomorrow. I have a few days until its a week old and I wasnt planning on disturbing them any more until the baby gets a little bigger so I have a few days to get things if I need to. Im currently unemployed so if i can use something I already have then that would be better. Thanks to all for your tips and advice.


They do need something other than cob corn bedding. Something they can grab with their feet. That helps to prevent the splayed leg.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Hmm. Would pineneedles work? They are light so i wouldnt have to worry about the baby getting stuck under them like with the sticks and twigs. There's also some hay/straw in the shed that we use for the dog houses when its cold. Its 12:30 am here so ill have to get stuff in the morning. Thanks for the help though.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

*Help!!*

ok so i was looking at the baby today. Its leg is somehow twisted the wrong way. Or something is wrong with it. and it cant fully extnd it. What should I do???


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> ok so i was looking at the baby today. Its leg is somehow twisted the wrong way. Or something is wrong with it. and it cant fully extnd it. What should I do???


Can't you take it to a vet? A picture would help.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Can't you take it to a vet? A picture would help.


No need to get snippy. There isnt a bird vet that is closer then two hours away and the actual bird specialist is only there on tuesdays. I took my hen there once and it was a horrible experience. I dont really want to go there again. My mom made a joke when I told her about the leg. She said "Your birds are probably brother and sister and thats why their babies have issues." She was joking but i got to thinking what if she was right?? Wouldnt that explain the problems with their babies? I probably sound rediculous right now.  I will get a picture of it and post it as soon as i can.


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## ThePigeonKid (Jan 15, 2009)

Here is a link it sounds like splayed lag to me:
http://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/pigeon-and-dove-illnesses-injuries-their-symptoms-and-treatment-f11/correcting-splayed-legs-t22.htm


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

thanks for the pictures and the link. The other leg "might" be because if only being able to use it and not the other I think one is broken or something. I dont know both of them are not where they should be.. Im on campus right now but ill post pictures soon.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I couldnt get a good picture but i took a couple and a video also to show you kind of. You cant get the full effect without seeing it in person. I just need to find my cord that connects the camera to my computer so I can upload them. It seems to have vanished.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> No need to get snippy. There isnt a bird vet that is closer then two hours away and the actual bird specialist is only there on tuesdays. I took my hen there once and it was a horrible experience. I dont really want to go there again. My mom made a joke when I told her about the leg. She said "Your birds are probably brother and sister and thats why their babies have issues." She was joking but i got to thinking what if she was right?? Wouldnt that explain the problems with their babies? I probably sound rediculous right now.  I will get a picture of it and post it as soon as i can.


I wasn't being snippy. You just for some reason took it that way. I was saying that a picture would help, and it would. That's all I said, and that's all I meant. There was no tone in it. Hard to know what is wrong when we can't actually see it.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

here is the best I can do with pictures. I couldnt find my camera cord anywhere so i had to sort of angle my laptop camera and take a picture that way. The first one shows the worse leg. It looks completely twisted. the bottom of the foot is facing outwards as oppose to down. and the leg isnt tucked under the body at all. The 2nd picture is of the other leg. I dont think it is in the right place either. Its toes are almost always curled up. I poked at it and the toes uncurl trying to grab my finger except for one of them. It just stayed curled. I tryed to un-curl it but im not sure if there are even bones in it. Its strange.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't see anything unusual in the pics.??? do the parents have enough calcium? babies need alot at this point. also, the nest bottom, make sure it is not smooth, they need a ruff surface so they can keep their legs under them, so they do not get played leg. they all look pretty bow legged at this stage. but keep your eye on him, keep something grippy under him in the nest. he looks a bit behind too, so make sure your parent birds have some vitamins.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What are you using for nesting?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Jay, Im using hay/straw and the rubber thing like you suggested. Spiritwings, the first picture the leg is very messed up. its sticking out the side and doesnt look like its in the same position as the other one. Neither one of them is *ever* tucked under. Its hard to get the full effect from the picture I guess thats why you dont see it. Maybe a picture from the top would help?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> Jay, Im using hay/straw and the rubber thing like you suggested. Spiritwings, the first picture the leg is very messed up. its sticking out the side and doesnt look like its in the same position as the other one. Neither one of them is *ever* tucked under. Its hard to get the full effect from the picture I guess thats why you dont see it. Maybe a picture from the top would help?


well he is still too young to use his legs and they tend to flop bow legged out to the sides at this point, sounds like his nest is fine, so just give some extra calcium suppliment in the parents water so his legs get strong when it is time form them to support himself, they should get the calcium asap. you can find something Im sure at the pet store for caged birds. when he gets older and still is not using his legs right then it may be a time to do a treatment for splayed leg, but right now it looks normal to me.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a pic of a pigeon squab, older but see his foot at the left, he still can not stand on his feet much at this point and the foot is out a bit to the side. it is when they are suppost to support themselves is when you can worry or if the leg just juts out way out without him using it. link to pic
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=341&pictureid=3631


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When they are very young, their legs are kinda kept along their side, but then soon they should be tucking them under their body. On a very hard surface, they can't do that as easily. And on a slippery surface the legs will slide out to the side. Give enough nesting material so that he can get them under himself, and it also gives him something to grab onto. and that rubber thing should stop them from sliding out. But if he keeps that leg, in the first picture like that, that doesn't look right to me. Looks like it is held up a bit too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's a cute pic Spiritwings, is he your bird? 

But doesn't the first picture look kinda like he is also holding the leg up higher? Not sure. What do you think?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> here is a pic of a pigeon squab, older but see his foot at the left, he still can not stand on his feet much at this point and the foot is out a bit to the side. it is when they are suppost to support themselves is when you can worry or if the leg just juts out way out without him using it. link to pic
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=341&pictureid=3631


So you dont think I should be worried about the twisted foot or the toe with no movement? I can understand what you mean about them being bowlegged at this point so im not "as" worried about it. But i still think theres something wrong with the foot. The squab in the picture atleast had his feet flat on the ground and not facing outwards.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> That's a cute pic Spiritwings, is he your bird?
> 
> But doesn't the first picture look kinda like he is also holding the leg up higher? Not sure. What do you think?


based on the knee? bone its actually lower down then the other.

edit: now looking back at the pictures i see what your seeing. He was sorta laying on his side-ish. He does that a lot.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The legs don't look quite right to me either. This is the age splay leg starts and so this is the age you need to make the correction so the condition doesn't become permanent.
If you wait it will only become worse.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

at his age, I really do not see an abnormal position, if older then yes, the legs and feet are like gummy bears at this point.the one in the pic i posted was older and starting putting his feet down, but not supporting his legs yet. if anything he looks a bit behind in developement. I think the parents need suppliments. he looks just too young to be tying legs together to me, and if that is done he could develope abnormally. I would wait for a few more days before jumping the gun. JMO


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Spirit wings just curious, how old was ur squab in that picture. Just so I can get an idea of when to start looking for his legs to change?
The parents still havent returned to the nest since I took pictures of him. The cock was blocking the hen from the nest and bow/cooing to her. I took him out too see if that would help but the hen still wont go to the nest. She is just sitting on a perch.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is another photo of a young rn.... something to go by.
http://www.ctaudubon.org/images/Rin...onburyCenterphotobySallyCarbone_lores_000.jpg


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> That's a cute pic Spiritwings, is he your bird?
> 
> But doesn't the first picture look kinda like he is also holding the leg up higher? Not sure. What do you think?


yes, he is now residing at EDs. a very handsome seraphim.

yes he is holding higher, but at this point, I really think there needs to be 100% sure this baby has a problem bfore tying his little bendy legs.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> Spirit wings just curious, how old was ur squab in that picture. Just so I can get an idea of when to start looking for his legs to change?
> The parents still havent returned to the nest since I took pictures of him. The cock was blocking the hen from the nest and bow/cooing to her. I took him out too see if that would help but the hen still wont go to the nest. She is just sitting on a perch.


he was a couple of weeks old.

not sure what you can do about the new problem, except wait. that is a reason not to disturb them, RNs can be funny, more so than pigeons. they do start leaving the nest more as the baby gets older, so perhaps that is what is happening. if they do not return and keep him warm and feed him you will have to take over. if they do not settle down on him he can get chilled, so you will have to have a heating pad on stand by and get or make some hand rearing food.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> he was a couple of weeks old.
> 
> not sure what you can do about the new problem, except wait. that is a reason not to disturb them, RNs can be funny, more so than pigeons. they do start leaving the nest more as the baby gets older, so perhaps that is what is happening. if they do not return and keep him warm and feed him you will have to take over. if they do not settle down on him he can get chilled, so you will have to have a heating pad on stand by and get or make some hand rearing food.


Im going to go to the store and get some things incase i need to take over. I have a heating pad but it has an auto shut off thing so i need a new one. Im going to leave the cock out of the cage while im gone. Hopefully the hen will return to the baby when I get home but im turning my heater on just incase. As for making the formula. What would I need to put in it? I havent found a pet store that has the kaytee stuff but ill keep an eye out for it. What size syringe do I use? Also incase i should have to fixed splayed legs if he ends up having them. what do I need to have for that. I figure I should get everything in this trip so i can be prepared. Thanks for the help.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Fixing splayed legs -- there are so many different ways that people have used, google it and check out the options. Hard to believe that the larger pet stores don't sell Kay-Tee formula. Do you have a petsmart or petco near you. It's harder to mix your own and have it be a well balanced diet for the baby. You can get it online to.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't know where in Maryland you are, but there are petsmart stores in Maryland. They would have it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is another pic for compair http://www.dovepets.com/images/herb/First Squab3_0.JPG. 


I would not leave the male out, he may not get back to his habit of feeding if the case...with pigeons the cock is the one that feeds the most when the young are getting older.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Fixing splayed legs -- there are so many different ways that people have used, google it and check out the options. Hard to believe that the larger pet stores don't sell Kay-Tee formula. Do you have a petsmart or petco near you. It's harder to mix your own and have it be a well balanced diet for the baby. You can get it online to.


The pets stores are just small ones. They arent the chain pet stores but there is a petsmart/petco about an hour from me. I will see if I can go up that way. I have seen it on the internet but I dont think it would make it here in time for me to wait that long. Im going to put the cock back in then if you think it would be best. But it seems he is more interested in mating rather then tending to the baby.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

lets do one thing at a time, there is still time to fix any splay if he so does have that. first is to wait and see if the parents can or will feed him. do not take any one out of the cage.

get your supplies on your way home, calcium suppliment, hand rearing formula, if none, try some baby ceral formula you mix with water, not ideal but better than nothing. there is a sticky for mac milk, somewhere on this site. heating pad just in case, things to feed with you may feel more comforatable with an eye dropper at first, drug store sell them. hopefully you won't have to use any of them. next watch and wait, take a breath and give the parents time to get back to normal, with the baby being out and the cock being out, hopefully they won't be too disturbed to take care of the young one.

another pic for you so you can see how they should look, this one is a bit young though.
http://www.dovepets.com/images/herb/First Squab3_0.JPG


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Is calcium supplement better in the liquid form? I already have oyster shell. The cock went back to the nest and got in next to the baby and the cock pecked at it or something and then left. The hen is at the other edge just perched there preening. Im leaving them all alone and just going to get ready to go. I want to try the syringe feeding with the end cut off and medical gauze or a laytex glove peice with a hole in it on the end. I think I would be more comfortable with that type of feeding method. Im just not sure how much I should feed him at this point if i would end up needing to feed him so im not sure what size syringe to get. I will try to google it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> Is calcium supplement better in the liquid form? I already have oyster shell. The cock went back to the nest and got in next to the baby and the cock pecked at it or something and then left. The hen is at the other edge just perched there preening. Im leaving them all alone and just going to get ready to go. I want to try the syringe feeding with the end cut off and medical gauze or a laytex glove peice with a hole in it on the end. I think I would be more comfortable with that type of feeding method. Im just not sure how much I should feed him at this point if i would end up needing to feed him so im not sure what size syringe to get. I will try to google it.


liquid form yes, in the water, that way you know they are getting some for them and the baby. syringe....
large enough for the baby to stick his beak in, so obviously the thin small ones won't work for that. they do sell laytex gloves at the dollar store too, if you are looking. you would feed just untill his crop is full and thats it, when it goes down you feed again. it needs to be warm but not too hot. but you can get that info if need be when the time comes. best for them to feed, hope it does go that way. fingers crossed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The cock is probably just trying to mate again and start a new nest. Kinda soon, but it happens. And sometimes they don't do a great job of taking care of the baby at this time. Hopefully, he will get back to business, but as spiritwings has mentioned, doves are more easily thrown off than pigeons, so disturbing them too much isn't good. And he will be the one doing most of the feeding, so he can't be taken out. If it did get to that point, you'd have to feed him. Hopefully that won't happen. But I'd definitely keep an eye on that leg.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I just checked in and the hen is on the baby now. *sigh of relief* Im still going to go out and get the stuff just incase i make them mad again when/if I have to mess with the leg. And I need the liquid calicum.

EDIT: ugh the cock just chased her out of the nest. boo.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> I just checked in and the hen is on the baby now. *sigh of relief* Im still going to go out and get the stuff just incase i make them mad again when/if I have to mess with the leg. And I need the liquid calicum.
> 
> EDIT: ugh the cock just chased her out of the nest. boo.


Good Lord! He's a pain, isn't he?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Good Lord! He's a pain, isn't he?


YES! he is being a big pain. He chased her out and now he is perched in the edge of the nest preening himself. He is being a bully.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe you should try to get the formula, just in case. You could order it online if you have to. Maybe just supplementary feedings?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

My dad wont let me order any offline but im going to petsmart now. Lets hope I find it there. the hen still hasnt returned since she was chased out. The poor thing is so cold.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I've only been following this thread. Good parents shouldn't be away from the baby this long. If it were me, I would get what I need and take over completely before you loose this little one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have to agree with Waynette. I would pull him and hand rear if they aren't taking care of it.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I just returned home. I got everything except liquid calcium stuff. They told me they werent getting anything but the multi vitamin stuff, which doesnt even have calicum. neither one of them are on the baby. My room is extremely hot though because of my heater so the baby isnt too cold. Im going to set up a little thing for him in my pet carrier. I got a cute little fuzzy hideaway thing and a heating pad that doesnt shut off.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm really sorry you're having all this trouble. Are you going to be able to feed him? Some will eat by the syringe method, but some don't. I've sometimes had to use an eyedropper. And this little one is kinda small.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Im hoping I will be able to feed him. I guess we will all find out when he needs to be fed. Is crop is still pretty full. Although he hasnt been fed since this morning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He must have been fed since then if his crop is that full. That or the food isn't going through. Maybe they are feeding him and you've just missed it?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Im pretty sure they arent feeding him. It was a lot fuller. Its probably like 1/4 full right now. I read that changes in tempurature can cause the crop to slow and since he spent most of the day cold i would think that would explain it. The last time they fed him was around one. Unless the hen fed him before she got chased off the nest. Be he was not fed since then I was watching them and wasnt fed while i was away because I checked the size of the crop before I left. .He isnt supposed to be fed until it is empty right?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

dovelove<3 said:


> Im pretty sure they arent feeding him. It was a lot fuller. Its probably like 1/4 full right now. I read that changes in tempurature can cause the crop to slow and since he spent most of the day cold i would think that would explain it. The last time they fed him was around one. Unless the hen fed him before she got chased off the nest. Be he was not fed since then I was watching them and wasnt fed while i was away because I checked the size of the crop before I left. .*He isnt supposed to be fed until it is empty right?*





That's exactly right.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> Im pretty sure they arent feeding him. It was a lot fuller. Its probably like 1/4 full right now. I read that changes in tempurature can cause the crop to slow and since he spent most of the day cold i would think that would explain it. The last time they fed him was around one. Unless the hen fed him before she got chased off the nest. Be he was not fed since then I was watching them and wasnt fed while i was away because I checked the size of the crop before I left. .He isnt supposed to be fed until it is empty right?


Okay, well one oclock would make more sense. You had said this morning, and that's a long time for it not to be emptying.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Okay, well one oclock would make more sense. You had said this morning, and that's a long time for it not to be emptying.


yah i realised that. When you said something. thats why I rephrased. Im holding him while im watching tv on his little heating pad. Its so cute he is trying to eat between my fingers.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's really too bad, as it is just so much better and easier if the parents are raising him. How old are the parents? Could they just be too young? I don't remember.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

It could be that. I got them fully grown and the people at the pet store said they didnt know anything about them. I got them back in june so they are at least 9-10 months. that is if its about 3 months till they are fully grown. im not sure. Its probably going to be tough but im prepared to try. The good thing is that im home everyday with the exception of a few classes so I dont have much of a schedule to have to worry about working around.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's good that you will be home. Well, maybe not really too young, but first time parents are sometimes not so great at it. The male isn't helping much. Let us know how it goes.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

ok i will. Im a first time parent now too. lets hope i do a better job raising this little one then they have.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here's hoping!


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

well, I tried to feed him. The syringe with the glove wouldnt work. He kept stuffing his whole beak in the hole and i thought he was eating but his crop was filling with air.  It went down mostly though. So i tried to just squirt a little in at a time which was working but I couldnt get him to keep opening his mouth. I had to place his beak between my fingers and he would sometimes open. Jay, you said you have fed that way. Is there some trick to opening it? He is back on his heating pad. Im not sure what to do. My dad has a cousin that used to own pigeons. He might be able to help me. Im not sure if he ever raised any though. But im going to ask.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Feeding with the eye dropper, hold the baby on your lap, against your body. If you are right handed, then he should be facingthat way so that you can use your right hand for the eye dropper. I like an eye dropper better than a syringe if you are going to feed this way, as I can get it further back in his mouth. Using the index finger and thumb of both hands, very gently open his beak, and keeping your index finger and thumb of your left hand in the sides of his beak so that he can't close it, use the dropper in your right hand to put maybe a quarter of a dropper full way to the back of his throat. Past his tongue. Be careful not to get it in his airway, or you can drown him. As he gets bigger, you can feed a fuller dropper. Let him swallow it. I can look for a video of Renee feeding her squabs that I think I have a link for, but in that video, her birds were easy. Sometimes they're not, and this little one isn't used to being fed this way. If you want me to call you, pm me your phone number. Sometimes it's easier to talk than type, as you are holding the bird.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Have you tried feeding with something like this? It's the closest thing to duplicating moms mouth.










I take a baby bottle, cut the nipple half way down (enough so baby can stick his beak in), then cut the finger off a rubber glove and put over the nipple (snug), cut a cross slit in the tip, guide babies beak into the hole with the bottle tilted upward (so there's no air in the nipple).
Once they get the idea it's very easy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Have you tried feeding with something like this? It's the closest thing to duplicating moms mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love that picture Waynette. But its kinda like the syringe thing, and she said the baby wasn't drinking that way. Although, with the baby bottle, the opening is smaller, and might feel more like Pappas throat. I should try that. It's really cute. 

To keep the baby from getting air, you just have to make sure that the end of the bottle that he is drinking from is full of formula. If you let air get down there, he will get air. I'd try it!


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

That is cute! I will try it. Hopefully it will work better then the syringe. Their nose holes can be in the bottle? How can they breath without breathing in formula. Im giving the little guy a break and then im going to try with an eyedropper because I dont have a bottle. I will go out a buy one tonight.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> That is cute! I will try it. Hopefully it will work better then the syringe. Their nose holes can be in the bottle? How can they breath without breathing in formula. Im giving the little guy a break and then im going to try with an eyedropper because I dont have a bottle. I will go out a buy one tonight.


If it works, we'd love to see pictures. That's really cute.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

dovelove<3 said:


> That is cute! I will try it. Hopefully it will work better then the syringe. Their nose holes can be in the bottle? How can they breath without breathing in formula. Im giving the little guy a break and then im going to try with an eyedropper because I dont have a bottle. I will go out a buy one tonight.


Just make sure the slit in the rubber glove isn't too big. That way, he just sticks his beak in, should stop just before his nostrils (just like in mom or dads mouth) and sucks formula. If he sticks it in too far, he won't be able to breath and they usually jerk their head out. You'll get a "feel" for the right positioning. When you first start feeding is the hardest because their usually so hungry they try to gulp it.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Once they get the hang of it - when they see the bottle coming they run towards it like its "mom". Then all you have to do is hold it tilted - they do all the work 

Like this -


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I managed to get him to feed from a bottle. He kept stuffing his whole beak into it but he was ok. He has a little bit of air in his crop I can see a little bubble but he's pretty stuffed now.  I didnt take any pictures because I was more focused on getting him fed and it took two hands cause I have to hold him he's so little. I will get some eventually though. He's tucked away in his box for a nap now.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

dovelove<3 said:


> I managed to get him to feed from a bottle. He kept stuffing his whole beak into it but he was ok. He has a little bit of air in his crop I can see a little bubble but he's pretty stuffed now.  I didnt take any pictures because I was more focused on getting him fed and it took two hands cause I have to hold him he's so little. I will get some eventually though. He's tucked away in his box for a nap now.


I'm glad you got him to eat! Just keep him warm and make sure his crop empties. 
If I have just 1 baby, I put a little stuffed animal in so he can snuggle with.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I got him a little fuzzy hideaway tube thing so He has that to snuggle against and hes nice and warm with his heating pad.  I'll be heading home soon to check on him. I had to leave right after I fed him.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Im home. I checked on him he is still just as full but there is less food and more air.  Im going to let it go till morning and see how he looks. He wont need fed for a while because there is still quite a bit of food in his crop. I guess ill see how he looks in the morning. Hope the air goes down by then. Hes sleeping next to the fuzzy thing so im just going to let him be for tonight.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

dovelove<3 said:


> Im home. I checked on him he is still just as full but there is less food and more air.  Im going to let it go till morning and see how he looks. He wont need fed for a while because there is still quite a bit of food in his crop. I guess ill see how he looks in the morning. Hope the air goes down by then. Hes sleeping next to the fuzzy thing so im just going to let him be for tonight.


Whenever mine gulped too much air (which wasn't often), I would put a feeding tube down into the crop, just to release air.
Maybe others will jump in with suggestions on how to release air from the crop.
Maybe if you gently massage it and get him to move around a little usually gets things moving.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

The air has gone down a bit but there still some in there. I dont have a feeding tube and id be way to scared to put something down his throat. He's acting hungry trying to feed between my fingers but there is still some food in the crop from what I can tell around the air bubble. I tried to massage it out but it didnt work to well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Be careful doing that, as you can bring the food back up into the throat, and he can aspirate. It will go down eventually. Just be careful in feeding and try not to get too much air in.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I fed him again before I left and he got more air. He puts his beak in and then opens it wide and waits for the formula to run in. And then swallows with his beak open getting air in as well since his whole beak isnt in the bottle. If it was he wouldn't be able to breath. When I massaged it he was mostly empty so I didnt force any food back up. Is there any other way I can get the air out? perhaps I should stop feeding him with the bottle until he is a little bigger. He is still so small.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe you need to make the hole a bit larger. In Waynettes picture, the baby has his whole beak stuck in there, and my babies usually do the same thing, as they stretch the hole bigger to get in. Hasn't bothered them at all. I don't think he's getting in far enough to get enough of the food, and so is sucking, but getting air instead.










When he pulls his head out, I wipe his nose off.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I was actually making the hole small. I though that was what she had said so the nostrils wouldnt get in. Ill make it bigger next time.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

dovelove<3 said:


> I was actually making the hole small. I though that was what she had said so the nostrils wouldnt get in. Ill make it bigger next time.


With mine (and looks like Jays too) the whole beak goes in. I've never had a problem with the nostrils going in, but you want to keep the bottle tilted so its all formula and no air. I keep a damp cloth close by to wipe their beaks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> With mine (and looks like Jays too) the whole beak goes in. I've never had a problem with the nostrils going in, but you want to keep the bottle tilted so its all formula and no air. I keep a damp cloth close by to wipe their beaks.


That's what I do. LOL


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I really think that is your problem. At least it sounds as though he can't get the beak in far enough to suck formula, so he's sucking air. Do you know how much you have actually gotten into him so far today?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

He was full except for two air bubbles That i could see at the top of his crop. His crop feels like a big bubble but I can see a lot of formula in him. I really wish to get all of the air out somehow before I feed him again. It hard to tell when he is empty because of the air. An it seems like as he emptys with formula he fills with air.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just leave it alone. It'll clear up on it's own.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

So your saying to just continue feeding him when it seems empty and not worry about the air. ok I can do that. Im a little worried about how small he is. He's almost two weeks old and he is still so tiny.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you sure it's air, and not formula in the crop?


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

mhmm Yep im possitive.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, hopefully in making the hole bigger, he won't keep gulping so much air.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I hope so. Good think though is that he starting to hold his legs together. The one still seems slightly off and he doesnt use it very much to move around. I guess its just a waiting game with those. Im making a little photo album on my facebook.  He so cute. I got one picture of him peaking over my hand at the camera. I love it.  Im calling him Peeps for now, even though he doesnt peep or anything. He makes clicking noises though.  not sure why he does that.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Here's the picture I was talking about.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

glad you found a way to feed him, I probably do not have to point this out, but I would never breed this pair again. a few more days with good nutrition may help his legs, need to keep an eye on those so you can "fix" them if he may show he has a problem


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I cant prevent them from breeding but im not going to let any more eggs hatch. My dad would kill me if I did. And they obviously cannot take care of a baby. Although its possible they just dont know how and it was partially my fault for taking the baby out i guess. But no Im not going to let them again.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> I cant prevent them from breeding but im not going to let any more eggs hatch. My dad would kill me if I did. And they obviously cannot take care of a baby. Although its possible they just dont know how and it was partially my fault for taking the baby out i guess. But no Im not going to let them again.


well I do think you knew what I meant, that is how "breeders" say it. but of course Im glad you already made that decision.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

We just had a close call with Peeps. I was just feeding him and I guess he ate too much because he started throwing up and I could see formula in his throat. It was really scary. I didnt know what to do. I was just wiping him off as it came out. My mom told me to just like push it out but I didnt want to cuz I didnt want to force more into his lungs. But then he stopped breathin normally and his eyes kept getting all squinty and I was scared. I thought I had to try to push it out or he was going to die like this. So i held him oh his back with his bottom facing up and pressed on his crop. That way the formula would run along the roof of his beak and hopefully stay away from his lungs. I pushed a lot out and then wiped him off and set him down. He was breathing irregularly but better then he had been. He started getting more active and trying to feed between my fingers again.  I was like are you serious? Being a little piggy almost got you killed already. I have him sitting in my lap on a heating pad and he is breathing normally now. I think he is going to be ok. Now im going to make sure I dont feed him as much. I guess he was hungry because every other time I have fed him he stopped eating on his own and was just fine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't empty his crop. You can drown him.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

He was going to drown if I hadnt. He is alive now because of the sole reason that I had emptied it some.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

things happen, it is not easy feeding babies. the danger is if some does get in his lungs, he can get an infection. If he is growing and starting to featherout and his legs get stronger, then all is good so far. good luck with him.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I didnt have much choice. He seems ok now though. He is 2 weeks old tomorrow. I think his growth was stunted though. Here's a picture of me feeding him. you can see how small he still is.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

How precious is that? c.hert


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

keep doing what your doing and hope he catches up, you may want to make the formula a bit thick may help with getting too much at one time and over flowing and choking on the liguid. less like water more like porridge.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

If that baby makes it--it will be a real miracle--two weeks so far-- good luck to you.
c.hert


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

c.hert said:


> If that baby makes it--it will be a real miracle--two weeks so far-- good luck to you.
> c.hert


that may be true, but if he is getting food on one end and its going out the other, he may make it!


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> that may be true, but if he is getting food on one end and its going out the other, he may make it!


I have noticed that he is pooping a ton now. It used to be like 1 or two overnight but now i wake up and theres piles all around.  im guessing thats a good thing.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Peeps ate his first seeds today.  I put some corncob bedding in the box he is in. I thought, oh he is too little he wont eat it. and sure enough as soon as I put him in the box he scooped one up. So i put him in a plate of seeds [he still cant stand] just to see what he would do. It was so funny. He was sliding his head all over the plate trying to get them in his mouth. Ha. He wasnt very good at it. But he's only two weeks old. But he got a few. It was cute. Just thought I would share.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

he sounds like a trooper! best wishes for you both! keep us updated.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

He is feathering out nicely. I fear the worst for his feet though. Its not really his legs that are the problem although they are still splayed out Its because of his feet. I put on a tape brace like is suggested and it made his legs in the right place but his feet are twisted like I had said from the beginning. He cant stand on them because the bottoms of his feet are facing up towards the sky instead of down to the ground. And thats causing his legs to splay. I just went ahead and took the tape off after a few days. Im not really sure there is anything that can be done about them. In every other way he is doing just fine. Eating a pooping normally. I think the seed things was just lucky because I havent been able to get him to do it again. Although I felt some corn cob in his crop last night. I had to empty out his box. I know that corn cob can upset their stomachs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you don't get this bird to a vet and get the legs fixed, which is usually very correctable, if done NOW, before it goes too long, it isn't going to matter how well he is feathering out, as he will be a cripple with no life.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yes, now that you know he is doing well and eating and pooping and seems he is going to make it, it is a good time to address his feet. I really think this may be a problem that is better handled by a vet's guidance. make an appointment ASAP.


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I will try to get him to a vet. Im unemployed and so Im hoping it wont be too costly. The last time I went I left with a high price. And they charge $64.75. just for going..


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

dovelove<3 said:


> I will try to get him to a vet. Im unemployed and so Im hoping it wont be too costly. The last time I went I left with a high price. And they charge $64.75. just for going..


I just do not have the proper knowledge about his feet to help you here, this sounds a bit more than just splay leg, but it sounds like it could be fixed. so either someone (one person) here needs to guide you through it, or go talk to a vet in person and get the bird able to walk when ready. you may look into if they offer pet insurance. or a payment plan, or a credit card you can pay off within a month without interest.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

There is a time limit being able to fix these feet and they have to be tended to by someone real soon if you want the bird to have a quality of life at all--needs to be while the bones are still flexible and tender and this baby--I say it is a miracle it is still alive--has a real will to live and if you don't tend to its legs --you might as well put it down now because with two legs gone---what quality is that---your breaking our hearts going back and forth--why and why not----FIX THE FEET --- if not--give the bird away to someone who will or call some bird clubs maybe and ask them for help or make arrangements with a vet to pay 1/2 now or some and then 1/2 later or some???? There is a time element on this and if the bird is doing well then get some opinions on how to solve the feet problems----if they can be solved....c.hert


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

Im looking into getting pet insurance for my birds. We have it for our dogs I think but thats through my dad. Im responsible for my birds so I have to get my own. Im looking aroun on the internet. Is there something I have to sign up for or do I do it at the hospital. Im really ignorant to the whole thing.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I don't know what to suggest to you other then try to call a Vet and ask them if there is a Vet who specializes in Avian or exotic pets (including birds-bird experience) and call them up and talk to the receptionist and tell her the story and see if they can recommand anyone to you for help for your birdie and then ask them the ball park figure for the first exam if you are able to locate a bird doctor. Another suggestion is find out if there are any pigeon racing clubs in your area and try to locate them to ask a question about spayed feet and if anyone can help you along these lines-in fact if you get an address to a racing club in your area try writing them a letter--might not work but its a try--some of those racing people really are great with feet and things--at least--some of the old timers who knows what they are up to now but if anyone knows about pigeons they do--or maybe they can recommand something????-Just get on the phone and make contact different organizaions and ask how can you get help for this bird because it is your pet bird---call up the bird of prey people see if they can recommand anything...You have a lot of work ahead of you...Good luck to you dear person..c.hert


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## dovelove<3 (May 28, 2009)

I just got home from school. Peeps passed when I was gone.  He was sleeping soundly this morning after I fed him. Poor little guy. I appreciate all of you for your help and support. I hope he will be happy in birdy heaven where he can grow and walk and fly. I'm gonna miss him.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Sorry for your loss...c.hert


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