# what breeds can "thief"



## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

What are all the breeds that can "thief"? I think that is pretty cool and am interested in the horseman thief pouter and was just wondering what other breeds can thief.

thanks


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Pouterfly will be along soon, He has an interesting project involvingThiefs and is a good one for you to talk to.

I am unsure about the USA but over here we only have valencian thief pouters, I do not currently fly mine as I have too many other flying kits to work with but when I did they would always take off after stray birds. Once I bought a white fantail garden dove cross thing in with a thief hen, He would not go away after that.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I suspect all strong flying types of pigeons can thieve, but some of the pouter breeds have been bred to specialize in this sport so they are probably the best at it ..... perhaps, depends how serious you want to get.

This is a very extensive subject to deal with in a brief comment, so everything depends on how much you want to get into the sport. In Scotland, Holland, Spain, Cuba for example the competition can be cut-throat. It's a sport that goes back a long time, and so depending on where you are will dictate how serious the game is played.

For most of us in North America we can only hope to dabble in this sport because it's played in neighborhoods where thief pouters of both sexes are flying everywhere. If you have lots of pigeons flying around near your loft the chances of some good fun are in your favor, if pickins are slim you won't get much sport.

Horseman in the USA have only recently been imported, and the focus is mostly on show pen breeding. But that's not to say you couldn't find some good flying individuals that can get the job done and also evade the hawks. If you have ferals to hunt nearby, then some of the Spanish thief flyers say the best choice is a pouter that is crossed to feral. If you just want to experiment and have a little fun to get started, then you could try just about any flying breed or cross, just isolate it so that when it flys it will range out and look for a mate to bring home. If you want to get serious about thief pouters, just ask


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

I guess I would like to get semi-serious about it. It depends on what exactly you mean, either way, I can't. I live in the middle of nowhere and so there are no pigeons around here. I would prefer to catch ferals anyhow and so I thought I could maybe make a portable loft and attach to the top of the van and when we get around some ferals then I could let em' out and thief that way. I do want a recognized breed though, not just a mutt. I would be breeding mainly for flying and working, but still trying to keep them showable. what breed is that on your avatar?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

The breed in my avatar is my own creation, mutt. I needed a pouter that could outfly hawks and no pure bred is a candidate because pouters have not been selected as hawk evaders, so I custom made what I needed.

Hunting ferals from a mobile setup is loaded with problems, when you release a pigeon ordinarily it would be on it's own familiar home ground. When you drive around looking for ferals, then release your pigeon, it is not on familiar ground and is more likely easily lost. But of course experiment and see what you come up with, I am not aware of anyone who has tried this and been successfull. 

There's quite a few guys in the US now breeding show Horseman so you shouldn't have any problems picking up show stock. As for breed purity, keep in mind that in Scotland the Horseman has a long history of crossing, it's only recently due to lack of neighborhood sport that the show version has been invented. The Horseman pouter is essentially a Norwich cropper crossed through homer, with a list of other breeds crossed in, this is why in Scotland you find the working Horseman with pied markings and grouse toes commonly.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Yea, maybe I'll just try to come up with my own working thief pouter, I guess that is what they should really be, is a working breed. Especially since I'm not interested in showing. I just don't know if I'll really enjoy them living where I do. What thief pouter projects are you working on?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

And what would you call these creations (aka mutts)? would they just be thief pouters?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I call them "Tom's pouters" because they are my creation for my needs.  I have a lot of Cooper's hawk and Goshawk conflict so I need birds that can do as well as the small flocks of local ferals here. They get hunted all the time yet their numbers don't fluctuate all that much. So the local ferals more or less set the bar for performance standard for my pouters.

Your situation is similar to mine, not much sport close by. So what I'm doing now is crossing homer into my pouters so that I have some distance capablitly with them. Homer is often crossed into Horseman and also Spanish pouters, partly for better homing capability, but also so that when a pouter is caught or sold, the chances of it returning home are real good. Kind of a devious reason, but that's part of the sport.

But for me, my plan is to take pouters out a few miles, amongst the ferals, and try and get them to bring a feral mate home. I think this approach might be more successfull than a mobile setup, but then until you experiment you never know what you will discover. For sport flying, I wouldn't worry about breed purity, breed purity is more about showing than sport flying. Custom make what you need. You could try homer x feral, then pair that to Horseman or Brunner, that would cover all basis for distance flying. For mobile flying, I would definitely fly Brunner x feral. This is a big subject so I am always up for some discussion, also thief flying is new for N America apart from the Cuban guys in Florida, so we are essentially pioneers in this sport here.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

I'd love to hear what you can teach me. I'm new to pigeons period and am really liking it so far, and even more with these thiefs. All I have available to me locally are english pouters and homers. The EP would probably make the birds way to big and I want a clean legged bird. But, do you think that I could start there? I was thinking something similar to you, brunner, homer and feral. But I don't have many pigeons to choose from around here.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Your situation is very much like mine, I also live in the boonies with very little choice for pigeon breeds. You folks in the US have the mail system though that will ship pigeons to you, so that might be an option. I can recommend a bunch of flying pouter breeders that will ship to you if you want to go that route.

For hunting ferals, you want another pigeon that is as close in type and behavior to them as possible so that they don't just ignore it. I've seen videos of working Horseman in Scotland, on the roof with ferals, and each ignored the other. The Spanish guys recommend pouter x feral for this reason.

If you have a hard time getting pouters, English is probably not the best choice because of size and very poor flying ability, then to start out would you consider homer x feral? This gets you in the ballpark if you want to try what I am doing, short distance homing. This would get you started with what you have handy, then if the bug bites to ramp it up, you could move on to cross homer/ferals to pouter you could get shipped in.

Do you have any interest in this way to get started? Keep in mind it's just a quick easy way to get experimenting with thief sport.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

pouterfly said:


> I suspect all strong flying types of pigeons can thieve, but some of the pouter breeds have been bred to specialize in this sport so they are probably the best at it ..... perhaps, depends how serious you want to get.
> 
> This is a very extensive subject to deal with in a brief comment, so everything depends on how much you want to get into the sport. In Scotland, Holland, Spain, Cuba for example the competition can be cut-throat. It's a sport that goes back a long time, and so depending on where you are will dictate how serious the game is played.
> 
> ...


 Personally I dont think this breed is everywhere in americas and they are not all that hawk savey or at least no more then any other breed bred to fly thru the skies more so any other flying breed. Maybe the ones bred down in the cuban community are more savey but in general they fair just as well as most pigeons if you ask me . So crossing them with ferals here isnt going to do them any justice because if you ever get the chance to watch any hawk or falcon cam you will see how well birds of prey feed on the feral pigeon population as savey as you may think they are .It always comes down to the talented few to really make a differance and nothing more, but thats just my opinion in the end .


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

To get you started, you could also consider flying homers from where your ferals are. Just isolate an unpaired homer so that it is very interested in courting a mate, then release it among the ferals and see what happens. A pure homer might just head for home though, the homing instinct is so strong, but you never know until you experiment. Homer x feral would take you a while to catch the feral, pair to homer, raise the young, wait for the young to mature, then start short distance training before you could play with thieving. The fun part is in the experimenting.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Pigeonvilla what would you recommend to get Armanitvrs started?

The guys in Spain tell me to hunt ferals you want a pouter that is crossed to feral, to get them as close as possible to feral in type and behavior. So I accept what they advise me.

Also, feral populations especially the rural flocks, are constantly trimmed by birds of prey so that only the best individuals survive. Birds of prey have shaped wild C. livia since the beginning. This is generally not the case with domestic pigeons.

These are two reasons why I recommend crossing to feral, these wild pigeons deserve our respect because they survive by their wits.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

pouterfly said:


> Pigeonvilla what would you recommend to get Armanitvrs started?
> 
> The guys in Spain tell me to hunt ferals you want a pouter that is crossed to feral, to get them as close as possible to feral in type and behavior. So I accept what they advise me.
> 
> ...


I agree they do survive by their wits but how does one know one from another when it comes to their wits ?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

PigeonVilla said:


> I agree they do survive by their wits but how does one know one from another when it comes to their wits ?


Where I am, the wild pigeons are hunted all winter long by Goshawks. In the spring the ones remaining become the breeders, and pass on the genes of the survivors which is the same as has always been going on with the original wild populations on the cliffs. In my opinion you can pick at random and be quite sure you have top of the line. This is how I introduced feral genes into my pouters, check out my album to see the results.

The large flocks of pigeons in the cities I think is a different story though. These birds do experience some degree of survival of the fittest, but not to anywhere the same degree of natural selection as the small flocks of country ferals because of their large numbers. This is why I would recommend breeding from the country birds, especially if they are caught in the spring, then it shouldn't matter which one you chose.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

Armanitvrs I live in Knoxville and raise Horseman Thief Pouters. I do show my birds but many of my friends fly their's with much success. Pouterfly crossing with ferals to me is one of the best ways to produce hawk savy birds. I have a few friends doing the crossing to ferals. For stictly thieving crosses are usually the best. Armanitvrs I left you a message if you are interested in seeing some Horseman. Joe


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

pouterfly said:


> Your situation is very much like mine, I also live in the boonies with very little choice for pigeon breeds. You folks in the US have the mail system though that will ship pigeons to you, so that might be an option. I can recommend a bunch of flying pouter breeders that will ship to you if you want to go that route.
> 
> For hunting ferals, you want another pigeon that is as close in type and behavior to them as possible so that they don't just ignore it. I've seen videos of working Horseman in Scotland, on the roof with ferals, and each ignored the other. The Spanish guys recommend pouter x feral for this reason.
> 
> ...


Yea, I guess the homer x feral would work for me till I can cross in some pouter, I really want that pouter in them. I have thought about getting some birds shipped, but that is more the expensive route. I know of one good breeder here in Tennessee kinda close by to me, he doesn't have any breeds that I would want, but he might know someone that does. I've been trying to get in touch with him, but with no success thus far. Another problem would be where to catch some country ferals, we have plenty of city birds, but I don't know of any true country ferals. You see some every once in awhile on top of silos in farms on the side of the highway, but there would be no way of caching those. And plus, they are only semi-wild. What are some of the other flying pouter breeds? That way I know what breeds I can choose from.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

norwich said:


> Armanitvrs I live in Knoxville and raise Horseman Thief Pouters. I do show my birds but many of my friends fly their's with much success. Pouterfly crossing with ferals to me is one of the best ways to produce hawk savy birds. I have a few friends doing the crossing to ferals. For stictly thieving crosses are usually the best. Armanitvrs I left you a message if you are interested in seeing some Horseman. Joe


Thanks joe I'll see what you have. Knoxville is about 2 hours from me.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Armanitvrs said:


> Thanks joe I'll see what you have. Knoxville is about 2 hours from me.


what if you crossed an oriental roller into a project thief pouters. would that affect the performance of the thief and would they still roll? Would it improve their hawk evading, since oriental rollers are known for that. I'm not sure if you would even want to do that, I'm just thinking out-loud.

I think I'm going to get some horseman from joe, and then see if I can "improve" them for a better flying/working bird.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Joe - very encouraging to read your comments. For those of us interested in thief pouter sport in N America (apart from our Cuban friends that is) there's kind of two prominant questions. One is what's around to hunt ? the other is how well do our pouters cope with the hawks? Sounds like your friends have all bases covered, good to hear and can we hear more?

Armanitvrs - I think you found all you need with Joe and his buddies. They've already done the outcross to feral, all you really need is to ship in some of their spare youngsters and away you go. If you need distance flyers, cross them to homer. I've done the same, first a cross to feral, and now a cross to homer. This year I will have a bunch that are 25% homer, this is one bred last year as an example, he does 5-15 miles no problem.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Sound great, but he's within driving distance of me. So that's how I'll be getting them.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Welcome to thief pouter sport, you will have a lot of fun because most of us on the NA continent have to get creative, we're kind of making it up as we go along because more or less we don't have traditional thief pouter culture here except pockets in the southern US with the Spanish guys.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

What type of homer would be best to cross into them?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Because most of us have Cooper's hawk conflicts, we need smart, agile and fast pigeons to cope is what I've found. In my opinion, based on a lot of years dealing with this topic, so much depends on your loft location. If your loft is surrounded by a lot of open ground, then you can get away with a wider range of type of pigeon because they see the hawk coming and get into the air, so the hawk doesn't have the sneak attack advantage. But if your loft is surrounded by trees or buildings, as most of us have, then the Cooper's can get in real close and surprise your birds. In this situation I found the smaller very agile type pigeons fare best because they take less time to get into the air and can twist and turn easier on their way up.

So I recommend crossing to small size homer rather than the big bulky birds with more surface area and weight. I use the feral size and build as a guide for my birds because the feral has been shaped over vast amounts of time by predators, they represent evolutionary perfection.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, thanks. yea, we've got lots of trees around. So I guess racing homers would be a good choice?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

About the crossing with oriental rollers: I was kinda talking about doing it to get a rolling thief pouter. Would it affect the thieving abilities?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Those of us with lots of trees or buildings close to our lofts are at a huge disadvantage for flying pigeons. If we could all somehow get our lofts out into a field with lots of open space around it we would be much better off from Cooper's hawks, or Sparrowhawks depending where you live. But most of us can't so we end up with a lot of frustration, some guys resort to killing these birds illegally, others try to adapt somehow and cope the best they can. If you aim towards a small, agile fast type pouter you will be far better off than if you try to fly the big ones with a lot of wing/tail surface area, big crops, domestic brain and all that if you can't situate your loft in an open field.

I don't know much about racing homers, but do a search for the small types if you can, the bigger birds will not help you if you have a lot of trees and need a small size and agile pouter. The homer I used to cross into my pouters is from my own line that I inbred for thirty years as an experiment. She is small fast and very hawk savy, so for me an ideal candidate for the job. Every pouter I have that is part homer is related to her.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

And if I added homer to these horseman thief pouters, could I still call them horseman thief pouters or would I lose that privilege? How about, working horseman thief pouters? I just wouldn't want to mislead anyone who might buy birds.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

pouterfly said:


> Those of us with lots of trees or buildings close to our lofts are at a huge disadvantage for flying pigeons. If we could all somehow get our lofts out into a field with lots of open space around it we would be much better off from Cooper's hawks, or Sparrowhawks depending where you live. But most of us can't so we end up with a lot of frustration, some guys resort to killing these birds illegally, others try to adapt somehow and cope the best they can. If you aim towards a small, agile fast type pouter you will be far better off than if you try to fly the big ones with a lot of wing/tail surface area, big crops, domestic brain and all that if you can't situate your loft in an open field.
> 
> I don't know much about racing homers, but do a search for the small types if you can, the bigger birds will not help you if you have a lot of trees and need a small size and agile pouter. The homer I used to cross into my pouters is from my own line that I inbred for thirty years as an experiment. She is small fast and very hawk savy, so for me an ideal candidate for the job. Every pouter I have that is part homer is related to her.


Yea, that stinks. I really like to watch big birds fly. But can't have everything in life.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Armanitvrs said:


> About the crossing with oriental rollers: I was kinda talking about doing it to get a rolling thief pouter. Would it affect the thieving abilities?


You will lose the roll on a cross, and also it's of no value to a thief pouter anyway. But you would gain a smaller size pouter with better agility. 

But still in my opinion not a better choice than a feral because a good country type feral has the advantage of natural selection and probably a smarter brain, whereas an OR would not. This is a debateable point of course but in my opinion the odds in getting a savy brain is better from a naturally selected feral.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Armanitvrs said:


> And if I added homer to these horseman thief pouters, could I still call them horseman thief pouters or would I lose that privilege? How about, working horseman thief pouters? I just wouldn't want to mislead anyone who might buy birds.


When I talk to the Horseman flyers in Scotland, the hard core flyers will say it doesn't matter what you call them, just fly them and have fun.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

I know it, that's true. But I mean for the sake of other people.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

If you cross, they become your own creation like what I have done with mine. Such as " Show Horseman with some feral and homer crossed in". For flyer guys this is good news, for show guys this might not be what they want to hear. But you could always keep both types and compare them.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

I know when breeding chickens you would breed a hen that had the traits you wanted to get them into your line, because they pass on their traits much better then roosters. would the same apply with pigeons? If so, then what breed hen should I use, a homer hen with a horseman cock, or vise versa? Hope that makes sense.

thanks


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

pouterfly said:


> If you cross, they become your own creation like what I have done with mine. Such as " Show Horseman with some feral and homer crossed in". For flyer guys this is good news, for show guys this might not be what they want to hear. But you could always keep both types and compare them.


Not to drag on about this, just this last thought. So adding homer to these horseman I'm trying to get would be "mutta-fying" to the showers but improving to the flyers/workers?


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm not sure if it makes any difference which of the pair is the homer, someone else might know but for me I like to experiment.

On your other point, adding 25% or less homer to you Horseman pouters would be to enhance their homing skills. If you require good homing skills, consider this improving your Horseman. Horseman pouters in the hand should feel very much like a homer. You can develope your own Horseman by crossing homer to Norwich, according to comments from a Scottish master breeder named James Dolier.

Keep in mind the show version of Horseman is a very recent creation, the confusion in the breed is that the show version has not yet been declared "Show Horseman". In other breeds, such as Oriental Roller, the show birds are identified as that to prevent this sort of confusion. Horseman in Scotland can mean the traditional version, and also the recent show version, so lots at this time depends on politics unfortunately.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

well, norwich also has croppers. So which path do you think would be better? since I'm going to be crossing the horseman with homer anyway. If I got croppers and crossed them with homer than I'd be creating horseman, but if I got horseman and crossed them with homers, then I'd be improving the horseman. So I'm thinking that it would be better to go with the horseman, right?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

We touched on crossing the pouters with homers to get long distance flyers. But, how well do they do thieving from long distances? Will another bird follow for so long? And will the thief pouter go out far enough to find them? Or would I have to drop him off in an area were there are birds to thief?(that would probably be atleast 15 miles)


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

When you say "croppers" I assume you mean Norwich croppers. The modern Norwich is no longer a good flying breed, so it would take longer to reach the same point the Horseman pouters are already at.

Fifteen miles is a very long distance to try and thieve from, and you probably would not be successfull. Where I am there's small scattered flocks in a five mile radius and they tend to travel in small numbers to feed. I toss a few pouters at these distances and have them return home in hopes a feral will join my flock as they would another feral flock. This is not traditional thieving by any means but the best I have to work with, and I don't catch many but occasionally I get one to return with my birds.

This version may also work for you, or possibly you have the option to set up another loft some distance from your own to thieve from?

When you start looking at Horseman pouters, keep in mind a Scottish Horseman often has pied markings and grouse toes like this one.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Yes, I meant norwich croppers. There may be some feral birds closer by, living in some of the farms around here. Should I be looking for scottish horseman in particular? And how did the early thievers do it, did there birds go out and bring back ferals? I read that the thief pouters were developed to catch food for their keepers in bringing back to them feral (or other peoples) pigeons. I assume they lived in cities with large populations of ferals around though.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

I posted that photo just so you could see that in Scotland all the Horseman don't meet the new show standard. The show standard does not allow pied markings or grouse toes which to me is unfortunate because this has been part of the breed over there.

Originally as I understand it, the Horseman pouter was released some distance from home so that it would return with a mate picked up along the way. So homing ability was taken for granted with the breed, but as time went on thief sport became more of a neighborhood sport and homing ability was not as important. This is how I understand the history of the breed anyway.

If you have small flocks of ferals on local farms closer than 15 miles, then to me you would be flying more along the lines of the original purpose of the breed, this is more what I am doing. And, successfull at thieving or not, it is a big thrill just to know your pouter will home successfully from these distances, like that ash red grizzle cock I posted. 

Do you have the option to set up a second loft nearby, or another pigeon flyer not so far away?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

It sure sounds like our situations are very similar. Like you said, because of where we live, we just have to be happy with their homing, aslong as we don't lose the thieving trait. And if they bring back a bird with them, well that's a plus. I think I'm going to try expirementing a little with the portable loft, though. Do you think that the homing instinct would get in the way of me being able to fly this way? And no, I don't have available any of those options you mentioned, unfortunatly.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Norwich breeds show quality horseman, So do you think they'de even be able to home atall? I'd probably have to wait for the second generation birds that I'd cross with homer before I start taking them far away, Right?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Because of cost, I'm thinking of only getting a pair of birds from norwich. But maybe I should get a trio so that I'll have a pair to keep pure and then one horseman to cross with homer.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

You can fly the homer/pouter first crosses just fine, I have a lot of this type and they are wonderfull flyers. A second cross back to pouter is only for cosmetic reasons.

For portable flying you would need to start a youngster just when it was learning how to fly, and then only from one location. As it developes it's ability to fly it would be no different than if it was learning to fly from any loft. Trouble is you have to drive each time to this location, then also you have to wait for sexual maturity before you could expect it to start searching for a mate to bring back to the portable.

Try the portable idea, and also the distance tossing idea, both with homer first crosses to begin with. You are lucky to have the opportunity to play with ideas and get creative, this is where a lot of fun is to be had.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

That "second generation" was a typo, sorry. I meant first generation. I was trying to say that I probably couldn't expect the pure horseman from norwich to home.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

Have you discovered if the homer x pouter cross crossed back to pouter affects flying ability to much? And also, what breed of pouter do you use for creating your birds? is it brunner?


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

There are some mis conceptions that "show" Horseman will not be good thief pouters. Most of the flyers in Scotland don't breed their own Horseman they use birds bred by fanciers that show there Horseman. I have a friend in the UK who drives all his "show" culls to Scotland to a pigeon store where the flyers buy them regularly. There is more to crossing a Homer to a Norwich to make a good thief pouter. I think I would go the route of feral or homer to a brunner or small spanish pouter. The flying ability would be there. Like any breed training and keeping the best will increase your chances of success


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

The 25% homer, 75% pouter is probably the best mix for the job, these birds have good pouter type like the ash red grizzle cock I posted, also excellent short distance homing ability - short distance meaning like up to 20 miles with carefull training to get them there.

To create my own pouters, first I crossed Brunner to feral. Then I crossed their youngsters to mixed Norwich-type pouters that were very Horseman like. The Brunner and feral influence brought the size down and increased agililty, both traits I was after because I have Goshawks and Cooper's hawks hunting my birds. You'll see grouse toes on some of my birds, these are from a later blend of bigger feather toe pouters from a friend who crossed his birds to my smaller types mentioned above. The result is I have some variation in size and type, but over time one basic type will emerge and just like the flocks of country ferals, shape size and other characteristics will be determined by natural selection.


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Hi Joe, I agree that each bird needs to be tested to prove it's ability as a working thief pouter. Trouble is in the US how many Horseman get properly tested? There just isn't the opportunity to test them over here like there is in Scotland. I think this is what's behind the doubt about US Horseman as a working thief pouter.


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

norwich said:


> There are some mis conceptions that "show" Horseman will not be good thief pouters. Most of the flyers in Scotland don't breed their own Horseman they use birds bred by fanciers that show there Horseman. I have a friend in the UK who drives all his "show" culls to Scotland to a pigeon store where the flyers buy them regularly. There is more to crossing a Homer to a Norwich to make a good thief pouter. I think I would go the route of feral or homer to a brunner or small spanish pouter. The flying ability would be there. Like any breed training and keeping the best will increase your chances of success


Norwich, are you suggesting me not using your horseman? Or just giving some other suggestions? Really, your pouters are the only ones I can easily get ahold of to start out with. And I wasn't "downing" your "show" birds at all. To start out with I've decided that I'm going to breed homer x horseman. Using what I have available.(although I do want to keep a strain of pure horseman thief pouters) And norwich, would you know anyone with homers nearby?


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

No I am not suggesting that at all. Pouterfly is correct is that people have doubts because as the Horseman were first imported very few people flew them because they were on the rare and expensive side. $150 a pair and up is not something you want to lose. There are several guys that fly and show there birds. Charlie Rowe who is a member of this forum fly's his birds daily. He also show's them and won the Pageant of Pigeons and the National this past year. I know you weren't downing my Horseman as I told you I can't fly them where I live. Joe


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Joe I understand your point about not flying Horseman when they were first imported because of rarity and price. I sure hope that thief pouter sport developes in North America, far beyond what's going on now with the Spanish speaking guys, and that the Horseman will be part of that future. 

I hope that Horseman breeders understand the importance of testing and proving each bird so that thieving ability is not lost. My concern though is that there may not be enough interest in the thief sport to maintain the working standards, and that the primary interest in the breed is focused on the show pen, as we're seeing much more commonly now in Scotland.

But at this point, it's anyone's guess what the future holds for working Horseman pouters in North America.


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## norwich (Jul 29, 2009)

I sent 3 pair of Horseman to a guy in Hialeah Florida about 3 months ago. He said he would let me know how they do with the birds down there. I will let you know what he has to say. I do know that several of his friends have interest on my young one's after my show season. I know in Canada some of the guys have Horseman. I wonder if they fly them. Joe


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## pouterfly (Apr 16, 2012)

Joe I hope you will update whatever info you have on working Horseman on this continent, it all helps to promote the sport here. Same applies to any version of thief pouter, bottom line is there's plenty of room for any breed or cross, and whatever version of the sport that gets invented. 

I don't know of anyone having imported Horseman into Canada although there's a few of us that have made our own versions. But I sure hope you're right and that they are being used as thief pouters, the more people that join in this effort to build the sport the better.

Tom


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## DeeDee's Mom (Dec 17, 2011)

Excuse me, but I am totally ignorant. What IS "thiefing", please???


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Yes, I will definitely enjoy this thread if someone tell me what is a " theif Pouter"

Thanks


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The thread itself holds quite a few clues but in summary thiefing is a sport played where fanciers release there birds and try to bring in other peoples pigeons. Thief pigeons are a flirty breed so they are good at bringing in other pigeons. I think people put money on it and from what I have heard if you get someones bird you can name the price that they buy it back for, If they aren't willing to pay the price its yours, Another method is you pair two birds from seperate lofts, Release them half way between and see where the pair end up. Also Tom lets his birds go a few miles from home and they pick up ferals on their way home, basically as the name depicts it is thieving birds using thief pigeons.

I have some thief pouters in my album.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Thanks Evan

Then its very normal, people do that every where


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## DeeDee's Mom (Dec 17, 2011)

O-kay. Thanks for the explanation. Sounds very odd to me, but I've heard of stranger hobbies. LOL.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> The thread itself holds quite a few clues but in summary thiefing is a sport played where fanciers release there birds and try to bring in other peoples pigeons. Thief pigeons are a flirty breed so they are good at bringing in other pigeons. I think people put money on it and from what I have heard if you get someones bird you can name the price that they buy it back for, If they aren't willing to pay the price its yours, Another method is you pair two birds from seperate lofts, Release them half way between and see where the pair end up. Also Tom lets his birds go a few miles from home and they pick up ferals on their way home, basically as the name depicts it is thieving birds using thief pigeons.
> 
> I have some thief pouters in my album.


So I assume that this money thing only goes on with consenting players. If I am not thieving, but one of my birds ends up in your loft. I do not have to pay to get it back. Correct?


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## Armanitvrs (Apr 29, 2012)

If it was in my loft, no, I'd give it back. But you may have some trouble getting it back from some people. I don't know the exact rules, or if there is a rule for that, but I assume that some thievers would assume it as their bird once it's in their loft. Just guessing, but there are all types of people out there.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

They used to play it in spain in the olden days and if you let your birds out it was just common practice to expect them to be thieved and to pay if need be. Ofcourse now days if you bring in someones banded bird you need to offer the bird back to them.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Hmmmmm! Interesting sport! I'm not sure I would fly expensive birds if I knew people were playing in my area.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

That was the fun of it. you win some you loose some.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

With my luck at games, I'd loose a $1000.00 racer, and win back a $10.00 cross. But that's life!


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

I breed Thief Pouters, And Crossing with any type of Highflying breeds (rollers , tumblers , Racers etc ..) gave me good results .. a good flyer with strong thiefing abilities ... Also there is some Pouter breeds that can fly high and for a long period and can evade Hawks as well,If available It's an Ideal choice for you to get started
they are called : *Gorgueros *
here is a video of them : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeiPCQ2ej7o


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## samuri_spartan (Aug 26, 2007)

Hello Aldulbaki, Im curious about your success. Can you post some pictures? I have done some thief pouter crossing myself in hopes to breed a better flying thief. 

Regards,
Chris


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

samuri_spartan said:


> Hello Aldulbaki, Im curious about your success. Can you post some pictures? I have done some thief pouter crossing myself in hopes to breed a better flying thief.
> 
> Regards,
> Chris


Hi chris, Hmm Pictures? I can't for now My Upload is limited but there is a picture in my album I think it's a Solid black Thief pouter x Rafeno cross, also my friend have a Thief x Feral pair they look like ferals but they used to take some of my pigeons to my friends loft!
Reagrds,


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## samuri_spartan (Aug 26, 2007)

Would you say that the feral crosses are better fliers and thieves?


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Hi, Certainly YES ferals can evade attacks of hawks falcons better than a typical thief pouter! IMO!


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