# Genetic Tip Of The Day



## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

I am learning about genetics and found lots of interesting things here but thought I might set up a tip of the day thread for anyone to post thier knowledge on genetics. 

Lets start off simple

There are three base colours

*Blue* *Ash red* and *Brown*

Ash red is dominant to Blue and Brown is recessive to Blue

Base colour is sex linked so the cock carries two base colour genes and the hen only carries one

Because of the order of dominance an ash red cock can carry blue or brown and a blue cock can carry brown

When a pair breed thier sons get one base colour gene from each parent and the daughters get one of the fathers base colour genes.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Female birds never get any sexlinked genes from their mother.
If not covered up by other genes (like recessive white) the sexlinked gene always shows in the female.


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

Good tip Henk,

There are 4 known colour locuses on the sex chromosome, these are base colour, dilution/intensity, the almond series and reduced-rubella.

If you have a dilute hen paired to a non-dilute cock you won't breed any dilutes (sons will carry dilute) but if you have a dilute cock paired to a non-dilute hen all the daugters will be dilute (sons will carry dilute)


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

This is turning into tip of the week...


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

Base pattern is autosomal so the cock carries two base pattern genes and the hen also carries two.

There are two ways chromosomes/genes are inherited, sex linked or autosomal.

There are four base patterns, barless, bar, check and t-check, in that order of dominance.

A check carrying bar paired to a t-check carrying bar can produce t-checks, checks and bars.

If a birds base pattern genes are the same it is homozygous, if they are different then its hetrozygous.

For a bird to show barless it needs to be homozygous barless.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The order of dominance is most often given in the reverse order... 
Most dominant first etc...


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

good tip henk


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> This is turning into tip of the week...


Haha - Might wanna check your math though! ;-)

My tip - If starting out with a hen and trying to breed in a sex linked recessive gene make sure you keep a cockbird from the first cross. He will definetly carry whatever the sex linked gene was. ie. If using a yellow(dilute) hen you will most likely not get any yellows in the first cross, Breed a cockbird from that hen to any bird in your loft and you will get yellow(dilute) hens again. 

This applies to any sex linked recessive gene be it reduced, rubella, dilute, extreme dilute or pale. Also Brown would be included and so would blue if breeding from a line of ash reds.

Becky - Logan - Rudolph and others - wheres your tips?????


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Use the universally assigned genetic symbols; and genetic names rather than colloquialisms.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

My tip would be based on a mistake I made when starting out, and am still making today (I have rather weak self restraint  )

Concentrate on a few mutations (2 or 3) in a single breed, preferably mutations that combine well together. Don't overwhelm yourself with too many concurrent projects (unless you have a lot of space, and a lot of resources).

I started out wanting to know everything, and try every combination of mutations possible, and soon ended up with too many pigeons. Also take into account the ratios of expected youngsters. Unless you have a lot of space for plain old blues, trying to breed recessive reds from split recessive reds is not a good idea. You'll could end up breeding 8 youngsters and have only 2 or 3 recessive reds, what will you do with the other 5 or 6 blues?

If you are breeding homers, here are some examples of mutations that work well together (though they are not always easy to come by). 

 indigo, spread and dilute (all on a blue base) - 12 different phenotypes
 ash-red (and brown), dilute and grizzle - 12 (or 18) different phenotypes

It is an interesting exercise for to figure out all the theoretical phenotypes with only a couple of mutations. I still do it every so often to remind me why I mated up the pairs as I did. 

You may ask, how many mutations I keep now? The answer is 11 - and believe me, it is no mean feat choosing suitable mates when mating season starts!!


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

Good tips Rudolph, its also wize to think about what breed or breeds you want to work with. Some breeds take longer to breed back to standard.

I like Frillbacks. If you out-cross to another breed it takes 5 or more generations to get the quality of curl back. I imagine if you were breeding flying flights or gimples it would only take 2 or 3 generations. Owls or pigmy pouters probably take 10 generations


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

NO, pigeons do not have three base colors, they are however able to produce at least 3 pigments in their feathers. This confusion in pigeons having 3 base colors came about because of the idea that ash red and brown were alleles and thus some special status was assigned to this locus by the hobbyist community. Hollander, nor any professional genetics person, never accepted that this locus was in any way special than others. The sooner you will change your way of thinking about this so-called 3 base color BS, the sooner you will better understand how genetics works. Brown and Ash-red mutations are no more special than indigo, or recessive red, or any other color mutation. 



lockentauben said:


> I am learning about genetics and found lots of interesting things here but thought I might set up a tip of the day thread for anyone to post thier knowledge on genetics.
> 
> Lets start off simple
> 
> ...


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

amumtaz said:


> NO, pigeons do not have three base colors, they are however able to produce at least 3 pigments in their feathers. This confusion in pigeons having 3 base colors came about because of the idea that ash red and brown were alleles and thus some special status was assigned to this locus by the hobbyist community. Hollander, nor any professional genetics person, never accepted that this locus was in any way special than others. The sooner you will change your way of thinking about this so-called 3 base color BS, the sooner you will better understand how genetics works. Brown and Ash-red mutatioAns are no more special than indigo, or recessive red, or any other color mutation.


Interesting. I had not heard that before. Then I guess we can add brown and ash red to the sex linked category of color modifiers? And there is only one base Color? Blue? Never thought about it that way but it seems plausible.

Jim


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Jim,

No question Brown and Ash-red are sex-linked. In addition, ash-red is not a color!!! It is a phenotype produced by mainly red pigments. But when examined closely, we know that even homozygous ash-red pigeons have low quantities of black pigments in them.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes its plausible, I think for learning purposes it is good to understand the three so called base colours/pigments, For example, you can have ash red based, blue or brown based Indigos, Also grizzles in all the three base colour varieties, aswell as that spread will effect all three base colours differently, I think for this reason it is good to understand that all pigeons will have the genes to produce either an ash red, Blue or brown pigeon underneath whatever they are showing. 

I guess when teaching people or learning about genetics one needs to understand that a pigeon will always carry the genes for one of the three base colours/pigments aswell as a base pattern underneath or within their phenotype. Maybe this is the reason the three base colours/pigments need special attention

So although you are most likely correct scientifically I think for simplicitys sake it is taught this way.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

red is pheomelanin.
black and brown are eumelanin, a more photoprotective pigment kind.
Brown is a lower quality eumelanin.
If eumelanin is blocked (agoutifactor in other animal species), pheomelanin would be expressed.
If both are blocked, or pigmentcells (in a body region) are absent, the feather would look white or very pale.

Blue pigeons have their black pigment clotted on most body parts, hence the grayish look. The spread mutation counteracts this and makes the pigeon look black.
In other species the Extension locus/gene enables the expression of eumelanin (the MC1R receptor). "Recessive red" is a loss mutation of this gene in these species; the eumelanin boosting mutations on this gene are often dominant. Don't know if/how this applies to pigeon's recessive red gene.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yes its plausible, I think for learning purposes it is good to understand the three so called base colours/pigments, For example, you can have ash red based, blue or brown based Indigos, Also grizzles in all the three base colour varieties, aswell as that spread will effect all three base colours differently, I think for this reason it is good to understand that all pigeons will have the genes to produce either an ash red, Blue or brown pigeon underneath whatever they are showing.
> 
> I guess when teaching people or learning about genetics one needs to understand that a pigeon will always carry the genes for one of the three base colors/pigments as well as a base pattern underneath or within their phenotype. Maybe this is the reason the three base colours/pigments need special attention
> 
> So although you are most likely correct scientifically I think for simplicitys sake it is taught this way.


I completely agree with NZ Pigeon.

I think the distinction between 3 base colors and 2 mutations at the same locus (the color locus) is purely intellectual. It is completely allowed to say that pigeons have 3 colors, because there are three main phenotypes that can be created from the alleles in the color series. Genetics of cats (and mice I think) has the same pattern. Cats have red and black and brown and also intense and dilute for each of these, it is not uncommon to hear about the 3 colors even when it is not strictly scientifically correct.

If we want to hammer on what is scientifically correct, then we are never supposed to write out phenotypes like blue indigo, we should instead use the genetic shorthand. That is the only way to make sure everyone understands, the only correct scientific way is to write our genotype and explain phenotype afterwards when need be.

If is not correct to say that pigeons have 3 base colors, then we're also not allowed to say spread blue (correctly it should be called S//s+ or S//S), or dilute ash-red (should be BAd//- or BAd//B+d or BAd//BAd). Even though this is correct, this shorthand gets very confusing for those that are new to the subject. It can be safely avoided without confusing anyone, so I say 3 base colors is just fine, since it gives newcomers a place to start learning. Once they understand how the color series works, they can be introduced to more complex ideas and mutations like indigo and dilute (and gene linkage) etc.

My vote is that we stop making the genetics sound impossibly difficult, when it really is not difficult at all when you start slowly and simply. Not everyone needs to be able to explain how the genes affect the production of proteins (although Henk's post about that is entirely correct, and very informative - it is indeed postulated that ash-red/brown is a mutation of the MC1R gene).


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Evan, 

I disagree. Pigeons will not always have one of the so-called 3 base colors. Let me try to explain this without getting too technical. First, we need to understand our wild type standard (clean legged, plain headed, 12 tail feathered, orange eyed, blue bar). We need to understand that there are many genes affecting the feather colors. Indigo, recessive red, recessive white, grizzle, almond series, etc. We also have other genes to intensify color like pattern and other genes like dirty, smoky, chalky, etc. 

In order to get our standard phenotype, all of these genes must have wild-type genes in those loci. Change anyone of them, and you will no longer get our wild type standard. You think, one locus point commonly known as the b-locus is responsible for making red, brown and black pigment all by itself. And that is completely wrong way of thinking. In order to get our wild type phenotype all of the genes affecting the feather color must be wild-type. What that means is, even if the wild-type gene at the b-locus is present and functioning correctly, if the wild-type gene at the indigo locus is mutated, we can no longer get our blue bar phenotype. Apply the same idea to any other recessive, dominant or co-dominant genes and you will get the same result. Say, b-locus is coding for wild-type but dominant opal locus is mutated. Again, you will not get your blue bar anymore even though b-locus is coding for wild-type. Same goes for recessive genes like dilute, reduced, recessive red, recessive white, etc. The only difference between recessive and dominant genes is, in recessive genes we need to have two copies of the recessive gene for the autosomal genes and in cock birds, and only need one copy of the sex-linked recessive genes for the hens. So, to think one locus point by itself responsible to produce our wild-type standard is wrong. It also implies that b-locus is more special than other locus points, which is also wrong. 

With your logic: you can have ash red based, blue or brown based Indigos, Also grizzles in all the three base color varieties, as well as that spread will affect all three base colors differently. Well, we can also get dilute in ash-red, blue and brown, and any other mutants like indigo, recessive red, grizzle, etc. Does that mean dilute is also one of the main colors? We can get dirty, smoky, chalky, sooty in every mutant except in epistatic genes like albino, recessive red, and recessive white. Does that mean these genes (dirty, smoky, chalky, sooty) are also based colors since they can affect many mutant genes? How many based colors can you possibly have? When studying genetics there can only be one standard or base, and that is blue/black. 

In addition, from biochemical studies we now know every feather (except albino) have degrees of 3 pigments: red, black and brown. Scientists have found even black and brown pigments on homozygous ash-red cock birds. They have found low quantities of red and brown pigments even on blue bars. So, teaching pigeons have so-called 3 base colors does not simplify to teach genetics to beginners. It only hurts them for future understanding of how genes work. 




NZ Pigeon said:


> Yes its plausible, I think for learning purposes it is good to understand the three so called base colours/pigments, For example, you can have ash red based, blue or brown based Indigos, Also grizzles in all the three base colour varieties, aswell as that spread will effect all three base colours differently, I think for this reason it is good to understand that all pigeons will have the genes to produce either an ash red, Blue or brown pigeon underneath whatever they are showing.
> 
> I guess when teaching people or learning about genetics one needs to understand that a pigeon will always carry the genes for one of the three base colours/pigments aswell as a base pattern underneath or within their phenotype. Maybe this is the reason the three base colours/pigments need special attention
> 
> So although you are most likely correct scientifically I think for simplicitys sake it is taught this way.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Scientifically correct?

Rudolph I have news for you: Genetics is science and science have very strict rules for terminology. If you want to use the breeder’s terminology to name the genes, by all means you are free to call them anything you wish. But, if you want to learn and study genetics you have to follow rules of science. 




rudolph.est said:


> I completely agree with NZ Pigeon.
> 
> I think the distinction between 3 base colors and 2 mutations at the same locus (the color locus) is purely intellectual. It is completely allowed to say that pigeons have 3 colors, because there are three main phenotypes that can be created from the alleles in the color series. Genetics of cats (and mice I think) has the same pattern. Cats have red and black and brown and also intense and dilute for each of these, it is not uncommon to hear about the 3 colors even when it is not strictly scientifically correct.
> 
> ...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I disagree with the last statement - To learn genetics you can use any method available to simplify the proccess. On learning about inheritance you can then start to look into the scientific side of it. So you do not have to follow the rules of science to learn about the inheritance of genetics. Once you have a grasp on that you can look into the chemical side of things. 

I also think you have the mis-conception that I do not understand or agree with your statements. I agree 100% but you do not seem to understand where I and others are coming from with regards to keeping genetics simple for those learning.

You misunderstood my point - What I was saying is that taking all the modifiers such as dirty, smoky etc out of the equation we have three base colours or pigments - As far as dilute goes yes there are 3 different phenotypes for a dilute bird, An ash red - ash yellow, Blue - Silver, Brown - Khakhi, With the base colours however they cancel each other out - so you cannot have an ash red brown or an ash red blue or a brown ash red. These genes cancel each other out so that is indicitive of them being on the same locus..


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Evan,

I am afraid it is you who do not understand. If you try to teach the new comers that there are 3 so-called base colors, they will be as confused as you are now, when they try to learn anything other than ash-red brown and pattern series. You have learned the pigeon genetics the wrong way thinking there are 3 base colors and now you can’t seem to change that mentality. I agree that you can choose any method available to learn genetic science, but you cannot change the rules established for science to study it. You think you are making it easy for them to learn it, meanwhile they get into this mindset that there are 3 base colors which will confused the heck out of them when they try to learn how genes actually work. I said it before and let me say it again: ASH-RED IS NOT A COLOR, IT IS THE NAME OF A PHENOTYPE. How could you call that a base color? What is recessive red then? What is the red in indigo? Red in Bronze? Red in kite? How many base color can you have in so many other mutants even when ash-red is not present in the genotype? Are you suggesting that every recessive red, indigo, bronze or kite must also carry ash-red for them to produce the red pigment? Because by saying ash-red is a base color that is exactly what you are suggesting. 

What do you mean by: “you cannot have an ash red brown or an ash red blue or a brown ash red.” You’ve never seen an ash-red cock bird with brown or black flecks? 

You really need to study some more genetics before confusing the new comers about this 3 base color non-sense. No genetics books, nor any good scientist will ever suggest such thing. If you want to teach them something to start with, start with the basics like the definition of the wild-type. Teach them what our standard is and how we compare each mutant to our standard phenotype. That is the blue bar. Not ash-red, not brown.


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

amumtaz said:


> Scientifically correct?
> 
> Rudolph I have news for you: Genetics is science and science have very strict rules for terminology. If you want to use the breeder’s terminology to name the genes, by all means you are free to call them anything you wish. But, if you want to learn and study genetics you have to follow rules of science.


iam just starting in this genetics thing and i understand reccesive dominant and thats about where the understanding stops and this is just birds where not trying to pass a scientific law. the things i want to know is if i have a dilute hen and blue dominant cock how i can eventually get some more dilute hens k so this isnt a science forum so if you want to be scientificly correct maybe you should just go to one of those forums this is a relatively relaxed forum that has helped me learn a ton i mean 2000 pounds  of information which has helped me learn and develop in the sport i have a lot more to learn so if you could plz stop wasting my time arguing sceintific correctness so i can continue learning about pigeon genetics thank you for the cooperation


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Evan,
> 
> I am afraid it is you who do not understand. If you try to teach the new comers that there are 3 so-called base colors, they will be as confused as you are now, when they try to learn anything other than ash-red brown and pattern series. You have learned the pigeon genetics the wrong way thinking there are 3 base colors and now you can’t seem to change that mentality. I agree that you can choose any method available to learn genetic science, but you cannot change the rules established for science to study it. You think you are making it easy for them to learn it, meanwhile they get into this mindset that there are 3 base colors which will confused the heck out of them when they try to learn how genes actually work. I said it before and let me say it again: ASH-RED IS NOT A COLOR, IT IS THE NAME OF A PHENOTYPE. How could you call that a base color? What is recessive red then? What is the red in indigo? Red in Bronze? Red in kite? How many base color can you have in so many other mutants even when ash-red is not present in the genotype? Are you suggesting that every recessive red, indigo, bronze or kite must also carry ash-red for them to produce the red pigment? Because by saying ash-red is a base color that is exactly what you are suggesting.
> 
> ...


What I am saying is most other modifiers like indigo, grizzle, dilute etc. have different phenotypes whether they are on ash red, Blue or brown. With Brown or ash red that is that. They cancel out blue. So they do require some special attention. I do understand the science with regards to chemicals in the feather and pigmentation but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that ash red, Blue and brown act allelic to each other regardless if they are or not.


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

amumtaz said:


> NO, pigeons do not have three base colors, This confusion in pigeons having 3 base colors came about because of the idea that ash red and brown were alleles and thus some special status was assigned to this locus by the hobbyist community. Hollander, nor any professional genetics person, never accepted that this locus was in any way special than others. The sooner you will change your way of thinking about this so-called 3 base color BS, the sooner you will better understand how genetics works. Brown and Ash-red mutations are no more special than indigo, or recessive red, or any other color mutation.


So you don't belive brown, ash-red and blue are alleles but you state they are on the same locus??? thats really confusing


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

amumtaz said:


> Jim,
> 
> No question Brown and Ash-red are sex-linked. In addition, ash-red is not a color!!! It is a phenotype produced by mainly red pigments. But when examined closely, we know that even homozygous ash-red pigeons have low quantities of black pigments in them.




and genotype?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Well said Lockentauben.

Ash-red and brown are alleles (so they are at the same locus).

In an otherwise wild type female bird, if no mutation exists at this locus a bird will be called blue (and is in fact wild type), if the ash-red mutation exists at this locus she will be called ash-red and if the brown mutation exists at this locus, she will be called brown.

That is a rather long winded way of saying that the bird can be either ash-red or blue or brown (the rest of the information in the previous paragraph about wild-type etc is usually understood, and is almost never explicitly stated). At least I hope that most people will infer that the bird is considered to be wild-type except for the mentioned mutations.

Mr Mumtaz, We are not trying to give the color series any specific importance, I never said that the locus was more _special_ than any other. I simply think that it is fair to day that there are 3 base colors (blue, ash-red and brown) just as it is fair to say that there are 4 patterns (barless, bar, check, T-pattern). Just like there are 'short-cut' methods in mathematics to help people who are still learning, so there can be short-cuts in any other science to allow for easier assimilation of knowledge, genetics is not different. 

What it boils down to though, is being able to draw punnet squares (or any other similar method to show segregation of the genes in the parent birds and how they could combine in the offspring). The only meaningful way to do that is to use the shorthand genetics notation, and all this flame warring over correct speech is useless. 

I think we will have to agree to disagree about whether there are 3 base colors or not. This 'tip of the day' thread was meant to help people learn, not to confuse the poor beginner who already is having a hard time getting grip on this whole thing.

From now on I will talk about the '*allele/mutation at the color locus*' and not '*base color*', it means the same thing, shorthand, but might end up being confusing as noted in all the posts that have gone before.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

*Wild-type*

I know genetics can be very confusing, especially if you learned it the wrong way in the beginning. First thing we need to understand is the wild-type concept. When we study genetics of any species, we choose a standard phenotype and we compare the rest of the mutations to that standard. In pigeon genetics, our standard is the blue bar. So, at the b-locus we have two mutant genes besides the wild-type. The dominant one is called the ash-red, and the recessive one is called the brown. The common confusion is many people fall into trap thinking that wild-type gene at this locus solely responsible by itself to make any bird a blue/black phenotype. 

Now, take another sex-linked gene as an example. Let’s talk about the dilute gene. At the dilute locus we have two additional mutations: dilute and pale. But we also have the wild-type gene at that locus. Let’s look at indigo locus. At the indigo locus there is only one known mutant gene in there and it is called the indigo, but again, when the gene at the indigo locus is not mutated, what do we have instead? The wild-type gene. What I am saying is, in every locus point of every chromosome, we have a wild-type gene. So, to think the wild-type gene at the b-locus solely responsible to make the bird a blue bird is completely wrong. Yes, when there is no mutant gene present at the b locus (brown and ash-red), we would get a blue phenotype. BUT, the only way to get a blue phenotype is IF AND ONLY IF, every other gene affecting the feather colors are also have the wild-type genes in them. Because if indigo, recessive red, recessive white, almond, dominant opal, recessive opal, dilute, reduced, and the list goes on.…if any of them have a mutated gene we can no longer get our standard blue phenotype. So how many genes must be wild-type for us to get the blue phenotype? The answer is ALL the mutant genes that somehow affect the color, and that’s about 25 genes. If you break any of them (if they have mutated genes), we can no longer get our blue bar phenotype.

The other confusion is many people think we have a blue gene. NO we do not! As I explained above, in order to get a blue phenotype we need to have at least 25 genes coding for wild-type to get that blue phenotype. Therefore, rest of the genes besides b-locus genes where ash-red and brown assumed to be located, are as important and as necessary for us to get our wild-type phenotype, because they all have to contribute. If we claim there are 3 base colors, than we would be suggesting the b-locus is more important than the rest. In genetics, there is no gene more special or more important than the rest. 

I will explain why many people including myself think brown and ash-red are not even alleles later. In couple of years, when the pigeon genome is sequenced, we will know for sure if ash-red and brown are in fact alleles. For the time being forget about them being alleles. It is very important to understand the wild-type concept first. 

If you like to read more about this subject, visit my website at: http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics3.asp

Let me know if you have additional questions.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Rudolph,

Have you ever seen an ash-red hen with brown flecks? They do exist!!! If ash-red and brown were alleles, and if the hens only have one functional sex-chromosome, how could one locus have brown and ash-red genes at the same time? How about Ash-red hen with black flecks? How is that possible if there are 3 base colors (ash-red, brown and blue), how can a hen have 2 at the same time? Anyway, I am not going to try to prove they are not alleles and it is not really important in this topic. Again, you might think you are helping them by making them believe there are 3 so-called base colors in the beginning, but you are actually setting a mindset that they can’t come out of when they actually learn how genes actually work together. You may have never said b-locus is more special or important than others, but that is what you are suggesting when you say there are 3 BASE COLORS.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

amumtaz said:


> Rudolph,
> 
> Have you ever seen an ash-red hen with brown flecks? They do exists!!! If ash-red and brown were alleles, and if the hens only have one functional sex-chromosome, how could one locus have brown and ash-red genes at the same time? Anyway, I am not going to try to prove they are not alleles and it is not really important in this topic.


I have seen blue and brown flecks on cocks but not on hens. I have so far agreed about everything you have said, but there is no evidence (except for the rare anecdotal red hen with brown flecks) for that statement. The majority of the pigeons genetics scientific community are agreed. If one locus is enough for Hollander, Levi and still is enough for Axel Sell, Ron Huntley, Frank Mosca, Larry Davis and Richard Cryberg, it is enough for me. I would need to see empirical statistical evidence before accepting your statement, as is the scientific method.

I think this is very much a similar subject to the dilute and extreme dilute debate, most say they are allelic, some say they aren't. Since I cannot do the test matings necessary to prove one way or the other, I have to believe in the material published and well accepted as canonical in this matter (the paper by Larry Davis and Ron Huntley can be found here).



amumtaz said:


> Again, you might think you are helping them by making them believe there are 3 so-called base colors in the beginning, but you are actually setting a mindset that they can’t come out of when they actually learn how genes actually work together. You may have never said b-locus is more special or important than others, but that is what you are suggesting when you say there are 3 BASE COLORS.


As stated before, we will just have to agree to disagree, since we are saying the same thing in the end.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

First of all, the entire genetics part of the Levi’s book was written by Hollander. Levi didn’t know much about genetics. Would you like me to provide Richard Cryberg’s email address to you on a private message, so you can ask him if ash-red and brown are alleles?


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

lockentauben said:


> and genotype?


Yes.There is a gene called ash-red. But it is not a color. It is the name of a phenotype and the name is given by Hollander.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

amumtaz said:


> First of all, the entire genetics part of the Levi’s book was written by Hollander. Levi didn’t know much about genetics. Would you like me to provide Richard Cryberg’s email address to you on a private message, so you can ask him if ash-red and brown are alleles?


I have Richard Cryberg's e-mail address, has he published a paper proving that ash-red and brown are not alleles? I'd love to read it, if they aren't alleles they have to be extremely closely associated on the chromosome though.

I've never asked him whether ash-red and brown are alleles. I probably never will either, so far in my loft, they act like they are, and that is enough for me to be able to [fairly] reliably predict offspring. That's enough for me.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Yes.There is a gene called ash-red. But it is not a color. It is the name of a phenotype and the name is given by Hollander.


I thought the name of the phenotype would include all we can see, therefore would it not be ash red followed by whatever base pattern, Ash red bar for example. Ash red is a gene within that phenotype.

Ash red sounds like an imcomplete phenotype to me. 

Lastly, Thanks for your opinions here Mu Mumtaz. It seems we will also have to agree to disagree - Like Rudolf has said and as I mentioned in a previous post, ash red, Blue and brown certainly act allelic, If they are not I don't really care as I only use genetics to predict offspring. I am guessing this thread was about simple short tips that newcomers can use to learn about genetics. If you want to start a debate on ash red, Brown and blue and whether they are alleles I would say go right ahead but lets get back on track and keep this thread about simple tips


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Interesting…First you bring up all these names and claimed none of these scientist would agree with me. Then, when you have a chance to ask the most knowledgeable expert in pigeon genetics among living, in my opinion – Richard Cryberg, you say you will NEVER ask him. If you are going to rely on the breeding results in your loft and not the experts opinions, why did you bother bringing their name up? 



rudolph.est said:


> I have Richard Cryberg's e-mail address, has he published a paper proving that ash-red and brown are not alleles? I'd love to read it, if they aren't alleles they have to be extremely closely associated on the chromosome though.
> 
> I've never asked him whether ash-red and brown are alleles. I probably never will either, so far in my loft, they act like they are, and that is enough for me to be able to [fairly] reliably predict offspring. That's enough for me.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Evan,

Red is a color, black is a color, blue is color, brown is a color, indigo is a color, but ASH-RED is not! Ash–red is the name of the mutation assumed to be located at the b-locus and name of a phenotype. That is one of the reasons why you can’t claim ash-red is one of the so called base colors. I believe it was first called the dominant red, but because of the ashy looking tails, Hollander renamed this phenotype to ash-red. The main pigment found in ash-red is red. But ash-red is not a name of a color. At least I have never heard it used in English Language besides the people in the pigeon community. 

I know this was not a thread about discussing if brown and ash-red are alleles. Honestly, I did not want to discuss it here either until someone asked me about them. I have no problems with disagreements either. All I am trying to say is not to teach this 3 base color nonsense to newcomers because it is simply not true. No genetics books or any scientist will never agree on this. It was started by the fanciers only because brown and ash-red is thought to be alleles. Even if they are alleles, it is still wrong to think they are the base colors only because they are alleles. Base is the standard, and in pigeon genetics our standard is the blue bar. So, if you must use the word BASE COLOR, the only base color in pigeon genetics has to be black, because that is the main pigment found in our wild-type standard. 




NZ Pigeon said:


> I thought the name of the phenotype would include all we can see, therefore would it not be ash red followed by whatever base pattern, Ash red bar for example. Ash red is a gene within that phenotype.
> 
> Ash red sounds like an imcomplete phenotype to me.
> 
> Lastly, Thanks for your opinions here Mu Mumtaz. It seems we will also have to agree to disagree - Like Rudolf has said and as I mentioned in a previous post, ash red, Blue and brown certainly act allelic, If they are not I don't really care as I only use genetics to predict offspring. I am guessing this thread was about simple short tips that newcomers can use to learn about genetics. If you want to start a debate on ash red, Brown and blue and whether they are alleles I would say go right ahead but lets get back on track and keep this thread about simple tips


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ash-red is a color in pigeons. It doesn't matter if you can find it on a crayon somewhere  All pigeons are ash-red, blue, or brown based and then the modifiers change the look of them. This simply means that when you get down to it, they are one of the three even if they are solid white.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for summing it up nicely Becky!
Mr Mumtaz - The debate has been interesting, It seem most disagree with your statement that ash red, Blue and brown are not alleles. I think we all understand the point you are trying to make but unfortunately you have not provided us with any proof.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Evan,
> 
> Red is a color, black is a color, blue is color, brown is a color, indigo is a color, but ASH-RED is not! Ash–red is the name of the mutation assumed to be located at the b-locus and name of a phenotype. That is one of the reasons why you can’t claim ash-red is one of the so called base colors. I believe it was first called the dominant red, but because of the ashy looking tails, Hollander renamed this phenotype to ash-red. The main pigment found in ash-red is red. But ash-red is not a name of a color. At least I have never heard it used in English Language besides the people in the pigeon community.
> 
> I know this was not a thread about discussing if brown and ash-red are alleles. Honestly, I did not want to discuss it here either until someone asked me about them. I have no problems with disagreements either. All I am trying to say is not to teach this 3 base color nonsense to newcomers because it is simply not true. No genetics books or any scientist will never agree on this. It was started by the fanciers only because brown and ash-red is thought to be alleles. Even if they are alleles, it is still wrong to think they are the base colors only because they are alleles. Base is the standard, and in pigeon genetics our standard is the blue bar. So, if you must use the word BASE COLOR, the only base color in pigeon genetics has to be black, because that is the main pigment found in our wild-type standard.


I get you, Its simple genetics that everything is based around wildtype but you still have not provided proof that they are not alleles. I have seen proof with my own two eyes that they are allelic or atleast closely related so until you can give me some hard evidence they are not allelic then lets leave it there.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You cannot cross something out until it is proven one way or another. Cryberg is working on it but nothing has been conclusive yet. Years and years of allelelic habits are about as conclusive as you are going to get until something pops up that proves it wrong. So I'm sorry but I will continue teaching this "nonsense" to newcomers until it really is found to be nonsense by "experts" (which I happen to know of none). Whenever someone forks up enough money to have the genome mapped.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> *You cannot cross something out until it is proven one way or another.* Cryberg is working on it but nothing has been conclusive yet. Years and years of allelelic habits are about as conclusive as you are going to get until something pops up that proves it wrong. So I'm sorry but I will continue teaching this "nonsense" to newcomers until it really is found to be nonsense by "experts" (which I happen to know of none). Whenever someone forks up enough money to have the genome mapped.


I agree 100% Becky.

I wonder if the hens carrying brown and blue flecks could be caused by a completely different gene that we do not know off, Maybe something similar to super flecking but ofcourse a bit different as hens do not usually have the flecks to begin with. I guess this can not be ruled out either. As you know I have a hen will strong flecking and she seems to pass a super fleck gene onto the cockbirds she produces. I have one ash red cock that has a dark red fleck down tail feather and then a dark blue one running right down a tail feather on the other side. There is so much we do not know but I have never found any issue with predicting matings using the rule that ash red, Brown and blue are alleles


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

*Sources*

That’s great Becky!!! Why didn’t I think of that? Now, show us your source so we can verify that. Show us which genius went against the genetic science rules and created 3 different standards (bases) to compare rest of the mutations in pigeons. 



MaryOfExeter said:


> Ash-red is a color in pigeons. It doesn't matter if you can find it on a crayon somewhere  All pigeons are ash-red, blue, or brown based and then the modifiers change the look of them. This simply means that when you get down to it, they are one of the three even if they are solid white.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

*proof?*

Most people? You mean 3 people in this group? Once again Evan, there is no gene called “blue gene”. Keep reading… BTW where is your proof? Show me which genetics book or scientist says there are 3 base colors in pigeons?



NZ Pigeon said:


> Thanks for summing it up nicely Becky!
> Mr Mumtaz - The debate has been interesting, It seem most disagree with your statement that ash red, Blue and brown are not alleles. I think we all understand the point you are trying to make but unfortunately you have not provided us with any proof.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

No scientists ever said and will never say there are 3 base colors in pigeons. 



MaryOfExeter said:


> You cannot cross something out until it is proven one way or another. Cryberg is working on it but nothing has been conclusive yet. Years and years of allelelic habits are about as conclusive as you are going to get until something pops up that proves it wrong. So I'm sorry but I will continue teaching this "nonsense" to newcomers until it really is found to be nonsense by "experts" (which I happen to know of none). Whenever someone forks up enough money to have the genome mapped.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

You keep misunderstanding what we are saying. Yes, blue/black is wildtype and everything else mutated from that. But as alleles a bird is either blue, ash-red, or brown.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Sorry folks, time to close this one down. Just spinning wheels.


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