# Tetracycline



## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Is Tetracycline the same thing as duramycin that you can get from tractor supply?Need a quick response please.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

No, not the same at all.

Reti


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

It says tetracycline hydrochloride on the package,also says it's a antibiotic used for respiratory problems in chickens.So if it won't work is there anything at TSC that i can use?I have 1 bird that i noticed yesterday that is not well,sneezing and one of his nostrils is plugged up?

Here is the link to the stuff i'm talking about.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...biotics/durvet-duramycin-10-6-2-5-oz--2206034


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, we can do this. Do you have the stuff in hand yet? When you do, we're going to want to have a good clean jar with a tight lid to store the remainder in. When you get it and a jar together, measure exactly how much of the powder there is with regular measuring cups. We need to know that in order to figure out how to dose it for the individual bird instead of making up a bunch of gallons of stuff to treat an entire chicken coop.

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

I will go get it now,it will take me a few hours but i'll be back.Thank so much!


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

this will be interesting to hear


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

sport14692 said:


> this will be interesting to hear


How so?

Pidgey


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

I just think it will be helpful to alot of people on here


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Ok i got the exact stuff in the link i provided.There is just over 3/4 of a cup.Right now i only have one sick bird but i think i should treat them all??I have 10 all together.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, we use feedstore medications from time to time among the rehabbers. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with those things other than that they're prepackaged for mass dosing in a given amount of water and that if you only use a little and leave the rest in the bag, it will turn into a nasty mess of goo after awhile of sucking humidity out of the air. That seems to be the case for the bags of Duramycin, Terramycin and Aureomycin--don't know why, must be something to do with the excipients.

The packaged pigeon powders that I've used haven't done that, so they're better for long-term storage, methinks. However, when we're looking at an emergency and need immediate medicating, these will do as long as the medication is matched to the symptoms. With pigeons, we'd rather use Doxycycline (a different antibiotic in the Tetracycline family) but often have to make-do with one of these others. In any case, we'll come up with a means of dosing this individual bird from that packet, one way or another.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Rondo769 said:


> Ok i got the exact stuff in the link i provided.There is just over 3/4 of a cup.Right now i only have one sick bird but i think i should treat them all??I have 10 all together.


Okay, gimme' a few to give you dosing instructions for the individual and the flock. Sometimes with dosing the flock through the waterer, they don't like the taste of the water and will attempt to not drink until you've changed it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, yeah, how much does this bird weigh and what about the rest of them? What kind of pigeons are they?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And what's the weather (temperature) been like there lately?

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

The sick bird is German modina,the rest are a cross between a king and a carneau,they weigh around 2lbs each.The modina is alot smaller i would have to have a gram or ounce scale to to weigh him on,i do have an ounce scale but not sure how accurate it would be.Do you think i should treat the other birds too?Or just the sick one.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Being a rehabber, I usually only treat the sick ones. If more than one are sick in a loft, then you treat the entire loft.

Anyhow, your sick bird probably only weighs around 250 grams as they're about half the size of homers, right?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How, by the way, were you planning to get the medicine in him or her? Do you have a syringe? If so, what type?

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

The weather has been warm then cold and then warm again(It's Indiana)Yes about half the size of a homer,i do have a syringe but the kind with no needle,it came with some medication for my daughter.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... oddly enough, if we assume that the bird weighs 250 grams (0.25 kilograms) and we go with an older formulary entry of 200-250 milligrams of Tetracycline per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily, we end up needing to give your little Modena about a level teaspoon of the powder two times per day. Now... how do you want to do that?

Pidgey

Important Note: I screwed up on the dosage here, so don't use this entry for any birds.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is that syringe a "one (1) milliliter" syringe? What's it look like? Is it more of an eyedropper or a syringe like you give shots but with no needle?

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

What ever way you think is best,not sure really.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Sorry to interrupt, but your last question, "how do you want to do that", intrigues me. What are the options?


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Is that syringe a "one (1) milliliter" syringe? What's it look like? Is it more of an eyedropper or a syringe like you give shots but with no needle?
> 
> Pidgey


It looks like a syringe with no needle.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jaysen said:


> Sorry to interrupt, but your last question, "how do you want to do that", intrigues me. What are the options?


People have put in their feed, in their formula (when they won't eat on their own), in their water for them to drink, down their throats from a syringe after mixing it with water...

That last is what I do the most. Trouble is, you have to have the right stuff in order to do that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Rondo769 said:


> It looks like a syringe with no needle.


And the plunger works real well still? Sometimes they start getting real sticky after awhile. You do NOT want to lubricate them with oil or grease, only silicone, which is harder to find than you might imagine.

Anyhow, you're going to have to get the bird and do a trial run with straight water in the syringe down the gullet. The deal is to hold the bird firmly but not crushingly and to get a hold of the head in such a way that you can use your other hand to open the beak. The syringe has to go in inline with the neck and it has to clear the airway on the bottom, just behind the base of the tongue. You need to do a little looking first.

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> People have put in their feed, in their formula (when they won't eat on their own), in their water for them to drink, down their throats from a syringe after mixing it with water...
> 
> That last is what I do the most. Trouble is, you have to have the right stuff in order to do that.
> 
> Pidgey


That way would be fine,i will just treat him for now.


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

It looks like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Exel-International-Curved-Tip-Syringe/dp/B003ANYAGE


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the questions that we're going to have here is how much water does it take to reduce that level teaspoon of powder down to a thin-enough slurry to suck up wiht a syringe. That's something that you're going to have to figure out the hard way in a small cup--just add water by the drop until you get it to where it will work. Then you have to find out how many milliliters you ended up with to have to put down the bird in a single dose. An actual teaspoon is 5 milliliters, by the way, which would be five dosings with a one (1) milliliter syringe.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's a 12 milliliter? Well, at least that will be convenient for dosing this stuff. 

Now, and this is important, we can't DROWN the bird or it's all over real quick. The bird cannot be struggling too hard when you do it unless you put the tube WAY down the throat and that one probably won't. That's why I strongly suggest that you try very carefully to learn how before we actually put anything down him or her at all.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I usually pull his or her head and neck upward so that it's basically outstretched. I've usually got my left hand over his back upside down so that I can cradle his jawline between my middle and ring fingers while reaching around with my index finger and thumb to help hold the beak open. I use my right hand to open the beak and then operate the syringe. Play with doing that for awhile until you get the hang of it before attempting to put anything in. Also, you're going to want to look inside the back of the throat so that you can see where things are. There's an oval-shaped opening behind the base of the tongue that's the actual airway--get much in there and it's all over.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have to go to lunch, so review all of that stuff. If you feel like you've got it and want to give it a go before I get back, that's your choice. But if you have ANY questions, don't do anything until we work through them.

Pidgey


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Any chance of a picture?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A picture of?

Hmm... might have one of giving a tubefeeding, it's nearly the same.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Like these pictures?

http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

It's a 15ml syringe.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

A visual example of how you hold, open would be great for us (me trying not to feel lonely) slower than dirt types. One of those "a picture is worth a thousand words" scenarios.

Added: perfect. Thanks.


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Man that seems to be a lot of work, isn't there something easier to give it or is this all you have? I guess I should of read all of the post before posting this. My BADDDDD


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Ok,i mixed 1 tsp of powder and 2 tps of water,it mixed up just fine and flows good through the syringe.I have been handling the bird,looked down the throat and all.I'm just waiting to make sure 1 tsp of powder is correct?The bird did struggle alot as i was looking down it's throat,not sure how i can prevent this,maybe wrap it in a towel?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Back.

Well, it's kind of an interesting thing, medications...

One level teaspoon of powder mixed with two teaspoons of powder will probably make barely over two teaspoons of liquid, or about 11 mL's. While that will fit in that syringe easily, the question is whether the extension tube of the syringe will be long enough to go down the throat far enough so that you can squirt it in (not too quickly) and it won't come back up and go down the airway. So... try putting that tip down the bird (without anything) and then get an idea how far down it will go (measure the length and see where it starts with respect to the tip of the beak.

Pidgey


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

good information guys


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have another formulary (newer) that would suggest about a quarter to half the dose, by the way. You have to understand a few things about drugs and medicating that have changed over the years... older formulas (same drug, different molecular means of uptake and delivery) sometimes didn't survive through the acids of the stomach as well. As such, they had to give more in order to get the same amount into the bloodstream that we get today with less. It doesn't work that way for every drug and probably not so much for this one, but it's a complication to dosing. 

Also, sometimes there needs to be different achieved PDC's (Plasma Drug Concentration) in the bloodstream for different diseases. The dose I originally gave is for one and we don't know what we're dealing with here, actually. Another aspect of it is that for the Tetracyclines in particular, having grit available will cause less of the drug to be "available" for uptake, so there used to be two different dosing strategies: one with grit and one without grit.

Get's fun, huh?

Anyhow, how are we doing figuring out where we are at this point?

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Ok i did it,the tip on the syringe is 1 1/2" long,plenty to get past the wind pipe.At first he was squirming alot and i couldn't hold him and get the syringe down the throat far enough,so i wrapped him in a scarf,held his beak open and slowly pushed the meds in.He didn't struggle at all.He's back in the coop now resting.I did notice his nostriles were not plugged like they were yesterday,but his eye seemed to be seeping and there was still a discharge from the nostriles.How long should i continue treatment?And should another bird show symptoms i will just treat them all,what would be the best way to treat them all?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, [email protected] I think I got the math wrong...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How much powder did you end up giving him?

If we did overdose him, he'll probably throw it up. A 1/4 teaspoon would have been about right.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We'll call this one a "loading dose" and then actually go with a half of a quarter-teaspoon ever after, twice daily. I have to admit that I don't usually measure stuff this way.

Anyhow, for treating the loft, you'd go with about 7.5 level teaspoons to the gallon of water in their waterers. That would make about 2078 milligrams per gallon, or the same as the 0.549 grams per liter (549 milligrams per liter; 2078 milligrams per gallon) that's given for using it in the waterers out of the formularies.

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

1 tsp powder mixed with 2 tsp water.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... sorry... he'll probably throw up and get the runs. Does he eat grit much?

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> We'll call this one a "loading dose" and then actually go with a half of a quarter-teaspoon ever after, twice daily. I have to admit that I don't usually measure stuff this way.
> 
> Anyhow, for treating the loft, you'd go with about 7.5 level teaspoons to the gallon of water in their waterers. That would make about 2078 milligrams per gallon, or the same as the 0.549 grams per liter (549 milligrams per liter; 2078 milligrams per gallon) that's given for using it in the waterers out of the formularies.
> 
> Pidgey


So i won't give him another dose until the morning?Hope i didn't OD him!


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Well... sorry... he'll probably throw up and get the runs. Does he eat grit much?
> 
> Pidgey


No grit,i feed pellets.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And the pellets have calcium in them, huh? Yeah, that'd be about right.

Whether or not overdosing is much of a bother depends on the drug. With some, your body will simply make you throw it up or squirt it out the back end. Others, like Tylenol, can kill your liver. He might throw up and get the runs, but he'll probably absorb enough for it to start working, too.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We could give him a half of a Tums, if you have any.

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> And the pellets have calcium in them, huh? Yeah, that'd be about right.
> 
> Whether or not overdosing is much of a bother depends on the drug. With some, your body will simply make you throw it up or squirt it out the back end. Others, like Tylenol, can kill your liver. He might throw up and get the runs, but he'll probably absorb enough for it to start working, too.
> 
> Pidgey


Thank you for your help.I have been checking on him and he seems fine so far.I acquired these birds from a lady that lives about an hour away,they were her bf's,well she kicked him out,he didn't have any other place to keep the birds.So she placed an ad on craigs list,they were free and the ad said modina's,fantails and homers.Well i had been looking for some modina's so i went to get them and they turned out to be german modina's,tiny compared to what i was expecting,she only had 2.I wish i could have taken more of her birds,there living conditions were horrid.The birds were very lite and just not very healthy looking,i have had them for about 6 weeks.


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> We could give him a half of a Tums, if you have any.
> 
> Pidgey



I will go get some.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Rondo769 said:


> Is Tetracycline the same thing as duramycin that you can get from tractor supply?Need a quick response please.


yes , duramycin 10 is tetracycline hydrochloride, which comes in soluble powder, is for use in poultry, swine anc calves , each pounds contains 25 g, and it an antibiotic, use in infections of mycloplasma synoviae, enteritis and corona enteratis.
get at t supply, orchlins or mfa
can be use for salmonella, use 3 teaspoons per gallon of water for 15 days, them use a good probiotic after that, if ur flock is sick looking, sad eyes, watery poops or green looking poops, them most likely is salmonella, treat for worms also with a wide spectrum dewormer, but keep ur loft clean, dry and treat everyone at once.
nevertheless 3 in one sulpha is much better, and easier on pigeons that baytril, as baytril will destroy their digestive flaura, 3 in one can be found in fish stores and other stores.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Reti said:


> No, not the same at all.
> 
> Reti


ey my friend, u r wrong 2000 per cent. it s the same, why r u answering if u dont know. see if u learn some modesty and shutup if u dont know, no offense, better to shut up than to make a fool of yourself


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Maybe Reti is saying that it is not identical. Duramycin is Tetracycline hydrochloride so it has that hydrochloride part. Adding part to that medicine probably changes its properties.

So technically Duramycin is not Tetracycline. It is Tetracycline hydrochloride. LOL! Don't sweat on it. Duramycin then is in a family of Tetracycline.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, how's the little Modena doing today?

Pidgey


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## Rondo769 (May 18, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Well, how's the little Modena doing today?
> 
> Pidgey


He is good,i gave him the second dose this morning(except i only mixed 1/4tsp).I noticed there is no more nasal discharge but he is not very active(same as yesterday).He is eating good.

Another question,it was suggested that i deworm them,which i have not done since i got back into pigeons.I have some wazine 17 but have been reading it is not a very effective wormer,what could i get from TSC,they have about 20 different types of ivermectin,most is for horses and goats?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, let's let him get over this deal before we try deworming. 

With Ivermectin, you're usually more interested in getting the least amount for the best price because a little bit of that stuff goes a long way with pigeons. For instance, you can buy a bottle that'll treat a horse or a few thousand pigeons for an arm and a leg but it does HAVE an expiration date that you WILL have to respect--that stuff DOES go bad.

So... get some info on the various packaging types and prices and we'll try to figure out which way is the most economical way to go.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Given that he's doing better on the symptoms, let's go ahead and even cut it down a bit more for the next dose--just give a half of 1/4 of a teaspoon. With Doxycycline (a slightly different drug) they used to like to give them an injectable version called "Vibramycin" and would literally give them a week's worth at a single dose. I don't know if it's just made with a lot of time-delay-release stuff or what, but I've always thought that was pretty wild.

Anyhow, we'll probably want to maintain the lesser dose for at least 10 days.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Daily report?

Pidgey


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