# Cayenne, Garlic, ACV...for PPMV throes



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Had a PPMV outbreak...my fault, brought in a young Pigeon who I thought only had Canker..."Oooops"...


Anyway, it swept through the inside Free Fly Free Rove area...out of about 90 Pigeons, lost seven who were either fledgling-post-fledgling age or Babys ( oddly, one Baby'd die, he sibling would be un-affected ), or who were heavily immunocompromised oweing to already on-going illness I was treating them for and which they'd been recovering from.


Have six who are now 'wanglers' pro-tem...who we shall see if hey say Wanglers or ge over it.


Everyone else shrugged it off, or at most looked only a little 'off' but managed fine.



Anyway, recalling some mentions of how Asian Ducks and Chickens who had been fed Kim Chee had not shown symptoms of H5N1...even though of course PPMV is a whole different thing, I decided right at the get go, to purree a few quarts of Kim Chee, and add a healthy slug of that to everyone's Water, and or to the Tube-Feeding formula of those unable to eat on their own.


Finding this awkward, I decided then to merely use Cayanne, Garlic, and ACV in everyone's Water, and other's formula....now and then also addiong fresh made Celery Carrot and Cilantro Juice.

Long story long, everyone liked it, and I feel it may well have helped a good deal to ease the harm of the on-going PPMV.


Spicey-wise, I made these to about a 'medium' level of 'Hot'...where, if his was Asian Food, anyone who likes 'hot' would say it was too mild, and lighweights would manage alright.


Go some in my Eye, couple seconds later I was fine.


Anyway...food for thought...


Love,


Phil
l v


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

That sounds like a combination which would cause any kind of bug, virus, etc to run for the hills!

But hopefully not all did get, or will get, the virus. 

John


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi John,




Well...almost certainly everyone here in the free-fly free-rove area has it...has acquired the Virus.


My thought and practical experiment, was/is to offer something to help them not develop life-threatening or debilitating sympoms, for having it. 


This was the whole point of mentioning it...because I believe it has helped.



Phil
l v


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for sharing the info.

What are the ingredients in the Kim Chee?

I think it's definitely worth mentioning if it does indeed bolster the immune system and help with overcoming the symptoms.

I have not heard of using cayanne either, what results have you had with it?


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

There are endless variaitions of Kim Chee, but all are fermented Vegetables with Red Pepper, and usually some Garlic and Vinegar.


Easy to purree for adding strained purree to Tube-feeding formulas or Common Waterers.


What I did also, instead, was to simply add Cayenne, Garlic and raw ACV to Tube Feeding formulas, and, to the Common Waterers.


For the latter, for a one Gallon Waterer, I used one heaping Dessert Spoon of plain Garlic Powder and one of medium-hot-rated Cayenne powder, and about four Tablespoons of ACV...and one large Capsule of a people-type Multi-B-Vitamin...adding also off and on, about two Cups of Kim-Chee puree with juice.


For Tube Feeding Formula, to one half Cup of dry 'Hagens' or 'KT' or similar, I add one 'flat' Teaspoon or so of the Cayenne, one rounded Teaspoon ( or half a Dessert Spoon) of powdered Garlic, and about one to two Teaspoons of ACV...and or a tablespoon or so of Kim-Chee Juice...usually also adding one heaping Dessert Spoon of Powdered Greens, one of powdered Purple Dulce, and an ample Tablespoon or so of Black Cherry or Elderberry Juice concenrate, and some sprinkling of Powdered Calcium/Magnesium/Zink/Vit D...and some multi B Vitamin.


None of the afflicted who have had the Tube feedings every day have perished...and though some are palsied or 'wangley', all preen, several fly, and almost all poops are looking good.


What I had seen in the past, and was seeing again before starting this was the digestive systems of young PPMV Pigeons would stop...the Pigeon would stay 'still', standing low on the floor or cage bottom, be very droopy, and no poops...regardless of Crop contents...Medisatin and or ACV would not ammend, the Birds would be very droopy, no move or do anything but stand Head low, closed eyes, and die in a few days.


Those who had entered that phase or syndrome, to whom I had Tube fed the 'formula', came out of it.


Older Birds, with a differing 'wilting' and or 'twisting' or Palsied syndrome, have responded well also by A Not dieing...B Self Feeding or enhusiastically allowing Tube-Feeds and Seed Pops...C Little to no continued polyurina...Wing Flapping exercisings, no droopy, listless 'low' standing and puffed Feathers.


So...so far, I feel his is definitely well worth trying and well worth exploring...both for any conjecurally attributed Virus, and for anything else illness wise.


I believe the Cayenne is undersood to promote Circulation...which would benifit any convelescent of injury to the exremities, or, illness.


Overdose of Cayenne or Garlic should of course be avoided.


Cayenne is available in varying ratings of 'Hot'.


I figure, if the food or drink I serve them seems 'mild' to 'medium' to me, Spicey-wise or 'Hot' wise, then they ought to be alright with it also.


Baby Pigeons eat this with gusto, right out of the 'Nipple'.


Wild Birds, Parrots, and others seek out hot Peppers, sometimes very HOT kinds.


So...


Anyway...


So far...seems a good area for research, and for trying.


Far as I know, there are no problems if Kim Chee and or Cayenne/Garlic/ACV are part of a diet while Medications as such are concurrent.


One can always stagger feeds and meds times anyway.



Love,

Phil
l v


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That sounds like a one powerful mix, and I'm sure it has supported their immune systems as well as their nervous system. I have used alfalfa tabs and chlorella for some birds and it is wonderful for them.

I do want to emphasize that the blue-green algea that might be in some green mixes, should be avoided as it is toxic to birds, so anyone using green mixes should READ the label and make sure it doesn't have that in it.

Thank you for sharing, and am glad to hear the birds are doing so much better.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hope your pijies continue to do well, Phil!

I am not surprised that you have come up with an "un"common formula, being, imo, a combination of Dr. Doolittle and pigeon whisperer...

and, originator of the Napolean Hand Nest, Lap Towel Cave and Palm Nest (time)...

Love and Hugs
Shi


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> For Tube Feeding Formula, to *one half Cup* of dry 'Hagens' or 'KT' or similar, I *add one 'flat' Teaspoon or so of the Cayenne*, *one rounded Teaspoon ( or half a Dessert Spoon) of powdered Garlic*, and about one to two Teaspoons of ACV...and or a tablespoon or so of Kim-Chee Juice...usually also adding one heaping Dessert Spoon of Powdered Greens, one of powdered Purple Dulce, and an ample Tablespoon or so of Black Cherry or Elderberry Juice concenrate, and some sprinkling of Powdered Calcium/Magnesium/Zink/Vit D...and some multi B Vitamin.
> 
> 
> Overdose of Cayenne or Garlic should of course be avoided.
> ...


That sure seems like a pretty large dose of spices for the small amount of formula you are using.

How often are you giving this to them?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sorry Phil... but for the record and for any folks that are inexperienced with Pigeons...I don't think this formula is a very good idea.


----------



## FloridaLuv (Dec 19, 2008)

I have to say as a fairly new person here and just learning myself ((so please correct me if I am wrong))

But the opening statment on this thread reads:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Had a PPMV outbreak...my fault, brought in a young Pigeon who I thought only had Canker..."Oooops"...
> 
> ...


Of most concerning for me is the first sentence.... I am more or less wondering, why an outbreak happened?? Should a new Pijie not be isolated from the rest? (((We have just accuired a new pigeon and she will be quarintined for at least 8 weeks! if in that time she shows any illness she will stay there longer as I am afraid of my others getting ill.))) 

And Phil my apoligies, if I do not know the whole story, I am merely wondering for myself how a young bird is allowed in with birds who are still recovering from an illness.


----------



## Bezz (Dec 12, 2008)

Trees Gray said:


> I do want to emphasize that the blue-green algea that might be in some green mixes, should be avoided as it is toxic to birds, so anyone using green mixes should READ the label and make sure it doesn't have that in it.
> 
> .


Hi Trees

Is this SPIRULINA you are referring to?

Bezz


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

I find your results with the Kim Chee ingredients hopeful. At this time there is no treatment for the virus except supportive. If there is something in the Cayenne/garlic that is powerful enough to fight PMV, then that is a real breakthrough.

I know that the minute Cayenne is mentioned, many might think Phil is giving pigeons super hot peppers. He is not. Cayenne is a large family of peppers, the heat index of which runs from almost sweet to flaming hot. Paprika, for one, is in the Cayenne family. Phil has said that he tests the heat index to make sure it isn't something that would burn or harm them.

I agree that this is not for beginners. But obviously Phil has found a potential for treating active PMV that shows promise. Thank you Phil for sharing your early results with us. Some of the very experienced rehabbers who find themselves with PMV birds might try Phil's mix and pool the results over the next year or two.

Margaret


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

FloridaLuv said:


> *I have to say as a fairly new person here and just learning myself ((so please correct me if I am wrong))*
> 
> But the opening statment on this thread reads:
> Had a PPMV outbreak...my fault, brought in a young Pigeon who I thought only had Canker..."Oooops"...
> ...


You may be new to pigeons, FL, but you are exactly correct in that any new bird shoud absolutely be isolated, whether they appear healthy and most certainly if they are suspected of having any illness whatsoever.

Cindy


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> 
> I find your results with the Kim Chee ingredients hopeful. At this time there is no treatment for the virus except supportive. If there is something in the Cayenne/garlic that is powerful enough to fight PMV, then that is a real breakthrough.
> 
> ...


Sorry Margaret but I disagree with you as well.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Bezz said:


> Hi Trees
> 
> Is this SPIRULINA you are referring to?
> 
> Bezz


No, but it does have similarities.

There is alot of good info about it..


http://www.alliedwaves.com/petsinfo_1.htm


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> What I had seen in the past, and was seeing again before starting this was the digestive systems of young PPMV Pigeons would stop...the Pigeon would stay 'still', standing low on the floor or cage bottom, be very droopy, and no poops...regardless of Crop contents...Medisatin and or ACV would not ammend, the Birds would be very droopy, no move or do anything but stand Head low, closed eyes, and die in a few days.


That sounds more like Pigeon Herpesvirus than PMV. Pigeons with herpesvirus also show some of the nervous symptoms associated with PMV: move jerkily, show abnormal head posture... Have considered trying Acyclovir? Do you give them probiotics? 



> Well...almost certainly everyone here in the free-fly free-rove area has it...has acquired the Virus.


100% morbidity?  I hope that you isolated the pigeons as they showed symptoms rather than assume that all the pigeons were infected and allow the disease to spread unchecked. I have never before heard of 100% morbidity in PMV.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> That sure seems like a pretty large dose of spices for the small amount of formula you are using.
> 
> How often are you giving this to them?





AZWhitefeather said:


> That sure seems like a pretty large dose of spices for the small amount of formula you are using.
> 
> How often are you giving this to them?



This for the one's who are/were ill with probable PPMV and who were not eating...

10 mL...two times a day...( tastes good, about like gravy from an Asian Food...) each round followed by 'Seed Pops'.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

FloridaLuv said:


> I have to say as a fairly new person here and just learning myself ((so please correct me if I am wrong))
> 
> But the opening statment on this thread reads:
> 
> ...




Usually, any new arrives, I quarenteen for several weeks, or treat and release without them being set ino he free fly free rove area.



Someone brought me a white King Pigeon fledgling, urates suggesed Liver infection, was treating for Canker...Urates cleared up...I set him up in a cage and also a little walk around own recon time every day, in the free fly area for pre-release post convelescents. He seemed to be doing just fine.


Then noticed he was showing a fine palsy, and co-ordination exhagerations, and later that day he died.


Week later, things stared showing in stages among he free fly free rove...so I started everyone on Kim Chee and related, hoping it might help.


My mistake...should have quarenteened him. He wast just so lovely and bright and wanting to be non-caged.




Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bezz said:


> Hi Trees
> 
> Is this SPIRULINA you are referring to?
> 
> Bezz




I have never used any 'Blue Green Algae'.

Corella, "yes"...'Super Greens', "yes"...


No 'Algae'


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Margarret said:


> Phil,
> 
> I find your results with the Kim Chee ingredients hopeful. At this time there is no treatment for the virus except supportive. If there is something in the Cayenne/garlic that is powerful enough to fight PMV, then that is a real breakthrough.
> 
> ...




Thanks Margaret...


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> That sounds more like Pigeon Herpesvirus than PMV. Pigeons with herpesvirus also show some of the nervous symptoms associated with PMV: move jerkily, show abnormal head posture... Have considered trying Acyclovir? Do you give them probiotics?
> 
> 
> 
> 100% morbidity?  I hope that you isolated the pigeons as they showed symptoms rather than assume that all the pigeons were infected and allow the disease to spread unchecked. I have never before heard of 100% morbidity in PMV.



6 Birds died, as onset in the first two days of what I took to be the appearance of the outbreak...which includes the White King a week or so earlier, who I believe brought it in...these seemed o have been sudden deaths with no prior symptoms, among various ages.

5 Birds showing neurological sympoms...90 Birds showing no symptoms.


No further losses and no further symptoms after starting the regimen.


Isolation in Cages for any unable to self feed ( 3 Birds ).


I assume all are infected, since this is presumably a Virus wih a very highly contageous nature...in an enclosed indoor space of about 500 sq ft.


As such, symptoms, when they do occccccur, follow an incubation period.



In effect, everyone in free fly free rove is 'in' isolation.



Quarenteen as such, is in a seperate area...no Birds in quareneen have shown any PPMV-like sympoms.



Never head of "Acyclovir" but I will look into it for occasions of possible 'Herpes'..


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Usually, any new arrives, I quarenteen for several weeks, or treat and release without them being set ino he free fly free rove area.
> 
> Someone brought me a white King Pigeon fledgling, urates suggesed Liver infection, was treating for Canker...Urates cleared up...I set him up in a cage and also a little walk around own recon time every day, in the free fly area for pre-release post convelescents. He seemed to be doing just fine.
> 
> ...


It really is a shame that this has happened to the birds. 

It just goes to show how *imperative* it is to *isolate ALL incoming*, with no exceptions. 

Cindy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I assume all are infected, since this is presumably a Virus wih a very highly contageous nature...in an enclosed indoor space of about 500 sq ft.


I have no personal experience of an outbreak of PMV in a loft, but from what I have read it spreads slowly through the loft, so it can be contained. They recommend isolating any birds that show symptoms and vaccinating all the rest with .25ml of the inactivated vaccine during an outbreak.

Acyclovir is an anti viral that is used for human herpesvirus. I bought some (on a veterinary prescription) to treat a wood pigeon with pox, it is expensive but lasts about 6 months if refrigerated after opening and kept uncontaminated by decanting what is top be used in a particular case into a separate vial. It didn't help with pigeon pox, but that is not a herpes virus, I was clutching at straws.

This is a link to information of its use in humans: http://www.medicinenet.com/acyclovir/article.htm

Yellow urates are a sign that the liver is affected, not necessarily by canker, so it would be worth using a microscope to confirm that a pigeon has trichomoniasis. Unfortunately canker often appears with other infections, such as pigeon herpesvirus...pigeons with PMV are also more susceptible.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Phil says the Cayenne is believed to be good for circulation, whilst Garlic and ACV have been mentioned many times on PT as being generally beneficial to pigeon health. In addition, various people have tried different drugs, certain B vitamins, calcium and probably a few other things to help PMV birds.

While one person will have seen improvement, or the complete elimination of PMV symptoms, after administering a particular 'treatment', another using the same treatment will not. Even one person using the same treatment on a succession of birds is not guaranteed consistent results.

Fact is that in many cases, pigeons will become symptom-free within quite a short time, with nothing more than supportive care - keeping in a safe, relatively quiet place, and ensuring they are well nourished.

Anything, or combination of things, which could aid a pigeon's immune system may be worth trying, but that is probably the best we can do. It's very unlikely that anyone is going to be coming up with a 'wonder cure' anytime soon.

John


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

John, 
You are probably right. But I keep thinking of situations such as Lorenzo's oil, where a determined parent did discover something that helped sufferers of a genetic disease. While the oil was not the panacea it was first thought to be, it has been effective in prevention of symptoms for those afflicted and is about the only treatment still for that disease.

I know that there are natural anti-virals out there in pretty everyday ingredients and I keep hoping that we can find something that will help these poor PMV birds with both surviving the disease and preventing the extreme neurological aftermath. I have two that are very twisty despite surviving the virus nearly two years ago as squeakers. A third seems to be improving after all this time. I also know that when I was first working in nursing, back in the early 70's, one would be laughed out of the room if some of the treatments that are now commonplace were suggested then. My son, who is an RN, recently told me that the "newest" treatment for bed sores is to pack them with sugar. That was an old old treatment (probably from some cunning woman) that a second look is showing to be much more effective than our modern medicine. So I've set an intention to be open minded and more observant and attentive as people find success or failure with various things. What has not been done is to record the treatment approaches and see if anything seems to stand out. I'm going to try to do that somewhat as people report having PMV breaking out.

Margaret


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Margarret said:


> John,
> You are probably right. But I keep thinking of situations such as Lorenzo's oil, where a determined parent did discover something that helped sufferers of a genetic disease. While the oil was not the panacea it was first thought to be, it has been effective in prevention of symptoms for those afflicted and is about the only treatment still for that disease.
> 
> I know that there are natural anti-virals out there in pretty everyday ingredients and I keep hoping that we can find something that will help these poor PMV birds with both surviving the disease and preventing the extreme neurological aftermath. I have two that are very twisty despite surviving the virus nearly two years ago as squeakers. A third seems to be improving after all this time. I also know that when I was first working in nursing, back in the early 70's, one would be laughed out of the room if some of the treatments that are now commonplace were suggested then. My son, who is an RN, recently told me that the "newest" treatment for bed sores is to pack them with sugar. That was an old old treatment (probably from some cunning woman) that a second look is showing to be much more effective than our modern medicine. So I've set an intention to be open minded and more observant and attentive as people find success or failure with various things. What has not been done is to record the treatment approaches and see if anything seems to stand out. I'm going to try to do that somewhat as people report having PMV breaking out.
> ...


that is a good point, sometimes people need to think outside of the box.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

spirit wings said:


> that is a good point, sometimes people need to think outside of the box.


Which is, of course, what anyone who tries *any* treatment with PMV birds does, because as far as any kind of 'recommended veterinary treatment' goes there's nothing *in* the box 

John


----------

