# Whats the difference in white homing pigeons



## rcwms90 (Apr 28, 2011)

I've been doing research an checking out a few dove release sites. an i find 3 different names that people use to tell u what they are. some people say ROCK DOVES, others says WHITE DOVES, others say WHITE HOMING PIGEONS. an from my understanding they all look alike, an they all do the same thing with is COME HOME. so whats with the different names? or they truly different types of birds? or just other names for white homing pigeons.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Rock doves are rock pigeons. Rock pigeons are your normal feral type pigeon and it would be wrong to call a white homing pigeon a rock dove. The "dove release people" like to call them white doves even though they are pigeons because it "sounds nicer". There are white doves which are doves which are just pets not to be released so its wrong to call white pigeons, doves. The right name for them are White homing pigeons because that are what they are. There are other white pigeons that are not homers so just calling it a white pigeon wouldn't be descriptive enough even though most pigeon people would know what you meant.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

WISE -UP kid------Chessy? sound like it fits you to a "T".
all your research --you should know DOVEs do not return home.
Only Homing Pigeons return home.
BUT people SELL what sounds good.
White Dove release sounds good.
White Pigeon Release does not sound good or sell.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It just depends on what they want to call them. Some people want to clear up confusion by calling them white homing pigeons (what they actually are), because a lot of people will think of the white ringneck doves and think that is what they are getting unless the release makes it clear. Some release places call them white rock doves, which sounds more attractive than "pigeons" (people typically think of doves as cute and pigeons as filthy). Rock Doves are what all the domestic breeds, including homers, descended from. So yes, all of our birds are still technically Rock Doves. It's like different dog breeds. Just because a poodle looks a lot different from the very first dog, doesn't mean the poodle isn't still a dog. However, calling them all Rock Doves is confusing and not very specific. Think of pigeons like subspecies - Columba livia domestica, versus original, wild Rock Doves - Columba livia. 
Then some people don't bother clarifying at all and call them white doves.

So yes, all the the birds are the same white homing pigeons. It's just people call them different names to make them sound prettier. 

There have been some release businesses that were not informed at all...and released white ringnecks. THAT does not go over well. The birds fly around confused, sit in the trees, on people's heads, or wherever and wait to get eaten by predators.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people. They are doing a disservice to the community. By calling them doves and not pigeons because "pigeons are dirty". Its more or less conforming by lying. Doves and pigeons were *created* separately from one another. They are to distinct lines of animals and can not be used interchangeably.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I do agree that people should be more informed and realize that the birds they are having released at their wedding/funeral are indeed homing pigeons. But I don't agree with the part of all wedding release people not being true pigeon people. There are three of them in my racing club. They are good pigeon people. Those who only keep pigeons for money purposes are not real pigeon people.


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## rcwms90 (Apr 28, 2011)

i guess im so used to people says white dove all the time u don't think pigeons alot of people i know call pigeons rats on wings an i just had this agruement with someone they were stating that u cant release pigeons an lie an tell the people that they or doves but it is really a pigeon to begin with


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

The deal is, people dont pay to have a white homing pigeon release. They pay for white dove releases. If the birds fly off (back home) they are homing pigeons. Other birds do other things, homing pigeons go home.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Im saying those who are ashamed to call there birds pigeons are not true pigeon people. I take my dogs around where i live and i always went buy his house and saw he had a loft and i saw his white homers out one day loft flying thought it was cool to see them so close to home. My neighbors husband ended up passing away and my brother i went by his house the day before the funeral to see if we could get a release done. He ended up having one of my fancy birds that flew away which was great. He didn't even know how to hold the birds haha and he had been keeping them for over a year. He kept looking at the bird when we had it in our hands. He said he would take a donation other than have of pay his normal price. The release site was less than half mile from his loft probably a quarter mile. I ended up offering 50 bucks, that wasnt a big of enough "donation" for him he want 75. Anyways it just awes me how much they make off it. The dove release society said you should expect to pay 200- 250 bucks on a release. They siad because of the cost of the birds and the loft and what not. You would only probably have to do about 4 or 5 release at the point to have your whole loft paid off along with the birds and the food. I know there are probably other people out there not like him so i should extrapolate that to all. 

Sorry for the wall of text.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

white "dove' releases are a business so they will say what is good for them ...and actually the pigeon is a rock dove...so add white rock dove to it and no one is lieing.. it just sounds better for business to say rock dove..and that is actually what they are..on allot of wedding release sites I see they inform the public about how these are homing rock doves...and even call them pigeons.. I do not have a problem with it because most do explain the difference...


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Actually... They changed the name from Rock Dove to Rock Pigeon in 2004. Like i said doves and pigeons are two distinct animals which are not related, just created similarly. Ofcorse that is coming from a creationist worldview, in a evolutionist or naturalist worldview doves and pigeons are directly related from a common ancestor. None the less, doves are there own kind of animal and so are pigeons. Like i said they no longer call them rock doves.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Paki Tipplers said:


> Actually... They changed the name from Rock Dove to Rock Pigeon in 2004. Like i said doves and pigeons are two distinct animals which are not related, just created similarly. Ofcorse that is coming from a creationist worldview, in a evolutionist or naturalist worldview doves and pigeons are directly related from a common ancestor. None the less, doves are there own kind of animal and so are pigeons. Like i said they no longer call them rock doves.


I don't see a point in splitting hairs about it... rock dove just sounds nicer for release business reasons.. if they explain the difference between homers and ringnecks then that is all that matters really... one can call them feather angels..or white homing doves..or white rock pigeons..whatever..


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

splitting hair? I'm just saying as a Christian. God created doves. God created Pigeons. It's not semantics. They are two different animals which are similar. It would be like calling coyotes and wolves the same.


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## Sionnach Dhu (Jun 18, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> There have been some release businesses that were not informed at all...and released white ringnecks. THAT does not go over well. The birds fly around confused, sit in the trees, on people's heads, or wherever and wait to get eaten by predators.


 I got chatting with a guy at the pet store today who keeps ringnecks. He has three white ones that he got from a shelter - they were released at a wedding & joined the party rather than flying away. Whoever did the release left, so at the end of the day the folks in the wedding party had the birds still walking around. 
Kudos to them that they collected them up and took them to the shelter.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

It's just semantics. Not many people are doing Google searches for *White Homing Pigeon Releases* when they want a release at their wedding. It is similar to calling stereophonic audio reproduction gear a Hi-fi or a stereo. Same thing, different name.

A guy I know who does white dove releases states on his website and on his brochures that the birds to be released are white homing pigeons. He tells people that he cares for his birds, and won't release them if conditions aren't right for a release. Lastly, he warns people about getting cheap "release doves" to let go themselves. He tells otherwise uninformed people that unscrupulous "feather merchants" will sell white birds for releases, and that it is a sure death sentence to release those birds. 

I also know one of those people without scruples who will sell young, untrained, white homers for release purposes for $5.00 per bird. Must be tempting to the layperson who doesn't know any better - $100 to release twenty of those "release birds" compared to $200 to $350 to hire a reputable release business.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> splitting hair? I'm just saying as a Christian. God created doves. God created Pigeons. It's not semantics. They are two different animals which are similar. It would be like calling coyotes and wolves the same.


And all along, I thought Darwin created doves and pigeons!

But then, I don't believe in the theory of creationism.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

PAKI--google --columbidae
Doves and Pigeon are the same family.
The only 2 birds that suck water up to drink.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

PAKI--being a Christian look it up and get back to the site.
the story I have always heard----
One of the doves died on Noah's ark.
The Lord told him to mate the Dove to a Pigeon----so thats the reason they are the same family.
Check it out and post the correct answer.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

haha thanks. I don't believe in evolutionism. No worldview with it makes since out of the laws of logic, morality, or the uniformity of nature. Obviously in an evolutionist mind all animals are related to one another. So its really a non point to say doves and pigeons are related. Sure if anyone who believes the theory of evolution wants to argue with what im saying, that is understandable. But when someone ask the difference between a pigeon and dove im not going to pretend to be an evolutionist. If you want to argue evolution with me, PM me and we can talk. If you don't want to hear anymore creation you can block me.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

sky tx said:


> PAKI--being a Christian look it up and get back to the site.
> the story I have always heard----
> One of the doves died on Noah's ark.
> The Lord told him to mate the Dove to a Pigeon----so thats the reason they are the same family.
> Check it out and post the correct answer.


That is not in the Bible.... Family's, genius are based on the theory of evolution and are widely debated in evolution circles on.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Paki Tipplers said:


> haha thanks. I don't believe in evolutionism. No worldview with it makes since out of the laws of logic, morality, or the uniformity of nature. Obviously in an evolutionist mind all animals are related to one another. So its really a non point to say doves and pigeons are related. Sure if anyone who believes the theory of evolution wants to argue with what im saying, that is understandable. But when someone ask the difference between a pigeon and dove im not going to pretend to be an evolutionist. If you want to argue evolution with me, PM me and we can talk. If you don't want to hear anymore creation you can block me.


It is too bad that you don't believe in evolution when the proof is out there, plain to see and obvious. As a trained biologist we also discussed creationism and if you have logical mind, demands proof, you will not be convinced of creationist theory. And I still have that creationist book which discusses the theory as well as Darwin's book. Creationists can't explain how pigeons evolved, but evolution can. I also got the feeling that you don't understand evolution at all. And, yes, evolution is still happening. I have no intention of discussing this further since it is out of topic.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes this not the place i understand for that i will pm you. I understand evolution, i was an atheist for many years and only recently found Christ. There are six different types of evolution. 

1. Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter, by the Big Bang

2. Chemical Evolution: The origin of higher elements from hydrogen.

3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution: The origin of stars and planets.

4. Organic Evolution: The origin of Life.

5. Macro-Evolution: The changing from one kind of species to another kind of species.

6. Micro-Evolution: The variation within kinds of species. 

I believe #6


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

This is against the rules.

I don't know how this got to be an argument over whether pigeons and doves are related. Regardless of whether they are two different birds or not, the names are still used interchangeably. Our pigeons were originally called Rock Doves. I didn't know they changed it to Rock Pigeons. Doesn't really matter to me. If people call my birds doves, I correct them. Don't worry about what everyone else believes or says.

I would go on and put my own religious input, but then I would be breaking the rules too. So if you want to know, pm me.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I agree, So i hope we can drop it unless someone wants to private message me. I don't see any rule being broken. I feel we are being civil and ethical. Read the Rock Pigeon article on Wikipedia its in the first paragraph. The reason this was brought up was weather are not you can call a pigeon a dove and if pigeons and doves are the same. As its been shown the question itself has to be answered based on what a person believes or knows


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> Yes this not the place i understand for that i will pm you. I understand evolution, i was an atheist for many years and only recently found Christ. There are six different types of evolution.
> 
> 1. Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter, by the Big Bang
> 
> ...


How convenient to only believe in the scientific fact that supports your religious views. Are people allowed to believe only in the religious facts that support their other beliefs?


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## Wayne Johnson (Oct 1, 2010)

Dove is the Anglo Saxon word used before the Norman invasion. That is why "dove cote" is the name for old pigeon structures. Pigeon is the Norman or French word for the same animal. We are discussing common names not species. When Adam named the bird I am confident it was neither. In the book Ivanhoe, there is a passage where the Jester describes something similar with pigs. He says when does a pig become French? It is a swine (Anglo-Saxon) when alive, Pork(Anglo-Saxon) when killed then Ham (Norman or French) when cooked.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Paki Tipplers said:


> the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people. They are doing a disservice to the community. By calling them doves and not pigeons because "pigeons are dirty". Its more or less conforming by lying. Doves and pigeons were *created* separately from one another. They are to distinct lines of animals and can not be used interchangeably.


To say that people involved in the white dove release business*really are not pigeon people* is highly offensive and vexatious .....

If not already obvious it is a business I am associated with .....I am a member of a racing pigeon club , a member of national pigeon association ..I scrape up of the roads pigeons hit by cars and nurse them , bring birds home that have been poisoned and care for orphaned ferals that come my way and offer a home for them .

perhaps you'll enlighten me where I am doing a disservice to the community and secondly how I might not be described as a pigeon person ( really ) ?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Well, I think Iam going to express my FREE WILL and call them whatever the "H" I want..


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Thats a sensible thing to do ...........I am going to join you


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

A dove must be related to the pigeon . And a pigeon must be related to a dove. Far as white dove release WQhat other then a white homing pigeon is better to use. As a bird of any other breed could and would be lost after it is released. Some places still call the homing pigeon a dove. A service that people enjoy and feel good about WHITE DOVE release if it brings joy from sorrow. happiness in rememberance. Then it serves a usful purpose. Is it false to call it the pigeon a dove. NOT really as they are . The passenger pigeon looking at pictures sure showed a dove like relation. BUT perhaps we are wrong. The doves are not doves and the eagles are not eagles But just a name chosen by man to seperate the species.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

pi·geon 1 (pjn)
n.
1. Any of various birds of the widely distributed family Columbidae, characteristically having plump bodies, small heads, and short legs, especially the rock dove or any of its domesticated varieties.
2. Slang One who is easily swindled; a dupe.

.....................

dove1    /dʌv/ Show Spelled
[duhv] Show IPA

–noun 
1. any bird of the family Columbidae, especially the smaller species with pointed tails. Compare pigeon ( def. 1 ) . 
2. a pure white member of this species, used as a symbol of innocence, gentleness, tenderness, and peace. 
3. ( initial capital letter ) a symbol for the Holy Ghost.

...............................................

pigeon
Word History
Date of Origin 14th c.
Pigeon comes ultimately from late Latin pīpiō. This meant originally simply ‘young bird’, and was formed from the onomatopoeic base *pīp- (source also of English pipe), which imitated the chirps of young birds. It gradually specialized in use to ‘young pigeon, squab’, and both the general and the specific senses passed via Vulgar Latin *pībiō into Old French as pijon. By the time it arrived in English, however, only the ‘young pigeon’ sense survived, and this was soon overtaken by ‘pigeon’ in general.


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

wild or feral pigeons when owned and domesticated are called domestic pigeons~ doves are actually the smaller versions and are usually wild and don't have the pure homing ability and they have smaller nose or ceres and thin beak and come in very small number of colors while pigeons especially the domestic pigeons have a wide variety of colors, patterns, sizes and other physical traits (bred in captivity)~


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

ptras said:


> And all along, I thought Darwin created doves and pigeons!
> 
> But then, I don't believe in the theory of creationism.


so what do you believe? pigeons came from apes? hahahahahahahaha LOL


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

Paki Tipplers said:


> haha thanks. I don't believe in evolutionism. No worldview with it makes since out of the laws of logic, morality, or the uniformity of nature. Obviously in an evolutionist mind all animals are related to one another. So its really a non point to say doves and pigeons are related. Sure if anyone who believes the theory of evolution wants to argue with what im saying, that is understandable. But when someone ask the difference between a pigeon and dove im not going to pretend to be an evolutionist. If you want to argue evolution with me, PM me and we can talk. If you don't want to hear anymore creation you can block me.


um i think fantail pigeons have fanned tail because of some kind of evolution~ or are you going to say fantail pigeons are different pigeons and different genus from rollers or tipplers or tumblers or homers? always remember animals from different genus couldn't crossbreed~ also GMO(Genetically Modified Organism) is produced as a result of changing the genetic material('artificial evolution')~ maybe you were talking about the theory of development and not the development process(evolution)


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

Evolution - "the natural or artificially induced process by which new and different organisms develop as a result of changes in genetic material" . maybe from dove to pigeon is a mutation... or some simple evolution... like carps to goldfish or kois~ (i forgot the term or am i kind of right?^^) please correct me if i had some 'wrongs' .. i'm away from biology(genetics) lately.. haha


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Heedictator said:


> Evolution - "the natural or artificially induced process by which new and different organisms develop as a result of changes in genetic material" . maybe from dove to pigeon is a mutation... or some simple evolution... like carps to goldfish or kois~ (i forgot the term or am i kind of right?^^) please correct me if i had some 'wrongs' .. i'm away from biology(genetics) lately.. haha


I really don't think it matters much any longer..


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

way too far~ haha @rcwms90 was just reffering with different terms used to call pigeons(feral streets and domestic homing)~~ doves are smaller pigeons are bigger., pigeons in the wild may be called doves(rock dove)~


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> I really don't think it matters much any longer..


please refer to page 2 something about evolution... by paki


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

i think only blue(rock dove) and white(dove) genetic colors of pigeons are only called dove(rock dove and white dove) when being feral~ but am i wrong? are reds (ash reds, recessive reds, spread red) and brown genetic colored pigeons also called "rock dove" being ferals(gone wild after being domesticated)?


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

rcwms90 said:


> I've been doing research an checking out a few dove release sites. an i find 3 different names that people use to tell u what they are. some people say ROCK DOVES, others says WHITE DOVES, others say WHITE HOMING PIGEONS. an from my understanding they all look alike, an they all do the same thing with is COME HOME. so whats with the different names? or they truly different types of birds? or just other names for white homing pigeons.


So by now you should be totally confused.  If you want white birds to fly or release and come home get some white pigeons. Get them from someone who calls white pigeons white pigeons. They will fly and come home. You and the birds will be happy with what you have. And as with almost everything, you get what you pay for. "Someone" here on PT the may offer you a helping hand with white birds if you do in fact want to fly them. Take care and enjoy your birds and what is sure to be more discussion on white pigeons.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Heedictator said:


> so what do you believe? pigeons came from apes? hahahahahahahaha LOL


Not unlike some members of this forum.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> haha thanks. I don't believe in evolutionism. No worldview with it makes since out of the laws of logic, morality, or the uniformity of nature. Obviously in an evolutionist mind all animals are related to one another. So its really a non point to say doves and pigeons are related. Sure if anyone who believes the theory of evolution wants to argue with what im saying, that is understandable. But when someone ask the difference between a pigeon and dove im not going to pretend to be an evolutionist. If you want to argue evolution with me, PM me and we can talk. If you don't want to hear anymore creation you can block me.


One of the things that really has me wondering...

Did some god decide to create the homing instinct in pigeons, knowing that we would all be buying Benzing clocks, and winning money based upon how fast they come home?


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## Lynnwood Lofts (Apr 12, 2010)

whytwings said:


> To say that people involved in the white dove release business*really are not pigeon people* is highly offensive and vexatious .....
> 
> If not already obvious it is a business I am associated with .....I am a member of a racing pigeon club , a member of national pigeon association ..I scrape up of the roads pigeons hit by cars and nurse them , bring birds home that have been poisoned and care for orphaned ferals that come my way and offer a home for them .
> 
> perhaps you'll enlighten me where I am doing a disservice to the community and secondly how I might not be described as a pigeon person ( really ) ?


I just want to second that. I call my birds White Doves, but I also clarify that they are, in fact, white homing pigeons in my paperwork to give the reader a little lesson on why you shouldn't release ringnecks. Although we're only doing a wedding here and there because we're not fully started as a business yet, I have ferals that I took in, cleaned up their wounds, nursed them to health and gave them a happy home. We also have rollers and fantails, etc. I'd belong to a club if there were one nearby. It's not about making tons of money...I've been dishing out A LOT of moula for the last year and a half with no profit because our birds are first and foremost our family, and someday, they might bring in a paycheck which will be a bonus for us. I'd love to have my only job be to work with my birds. Lord knows they're much better company than many humans 

I personally think I'm doing a great service to the community because I don't just show up to the wedding and let birds go. I attend the rehearsal, bring one of my dirty pigeons so that the families can get up close and personal to the birds. I teach them how to hold them for a hand toss, or what to expect from a basket toss and answer any questions they may have. I don't charge any extra for this...I consider it educational and good customer service.

People buy fish fillets and fishsticks all the time not knowing that it's made with Tilapia ...do you think if they packaged Tilapia "Fish that survives solely on other fishes poop" that people might buy it less? It's all in the marketing. Plus you have to understand that we're working with the Bridezillas  I would rather my birds be marketed as doves then to be @[email protected] about it and market them as white homing pigeons so the mass majority of "pigeon uneducated" can go to the local flea market and buy up a bunch of ringnecks for their release because "the bride wanted doves, not pigeons."


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

To clean some things up:
Heedictator - Paki mentioned that he does believe in micro-evolution. That includes selective breeding/artificial evolution. Yes, pigeons are evolving as we breed them for different things. Everything evolves. But within each species. That means he doesn't believe a fish is going to evolve into a human. It'll just evolve into a "better" fish to overcome obstacles to survive. At a certain point, animals don't need to evolve anymore. But with us screwing up everything in nature, more and more wild animals are having to adapt and change to survive.
Yes, there is usually a noticable difference between pigeons and doves. Pigeons are normally bigger and bulkier, while doves are usually smaller, more dainty, and have longer tails. But it all comes down to whether the people who discovered them decided to call them pigeons, or doves. Passenger Pigeons looked more like doves to me. There are some very tiny "pigeons" as well. They look like little doves. If you go to different areas, they may call pigeon species, doves and dove species, pigeons. They may call it something totally different from the official name of the bird. That goes for all animals really. Cougars are also called Mountain Lions, Mountain Cats, Pumas, Catamounts, and Screamers. Yellow-billed Cuckoos are also called Rain Crows. Vultures are often called Buzzards, even though Buzzards are a bird of prey in Europe, and any crow, raven, cowbird, grackle, or any other bird that is black, is prone to being called blackbird. Cardinals are called Redbirds, Bluejays sometimes even called Bluebirds. So like I said, depending on where you live, people will call animals/birds different things. That especially goes for pigeons and doves.


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## rcwms90 (Apr 28, 2011)

wow this thread has gone in a complete different direction lmao thanks for the help everyone i get it now


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

evolution only happens in one same genus like columba for pigeons~ nobody believes pigeons will evolve into a butterfly someday and that is impossible~haha by the way pigeon's genus "columba" is a latin word that means "a dove" i just read about it on wikipedia^^ it seems like it feels good to argue., we'll learn from it^^


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

These confusing names are why Latin names are used in biology. That way we speak the same language.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

rcwms90 said:


> wow this thread has gone in a complete different direction lmao thanks for the help everyone i get it now


I think this says it all... lol...


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I think this says it all... lol...


Awww c'mon SW. Don't be a buzzkill on a nice argument!


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## rcwms90 (Apr 28, 2011)

ptras said:


> Awww c'mon SW. Don't be a buzzkill on a nice argument!


hahaha


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

ptras said:


> Awww c'mon SW. Don't be a buzzkill on a nice argument!


Okay, So yets assume evolution. Riddle me this. What are the laws of logic, where do they come from. What is Moriarty, and where does it come from, is it absolute?. How do you explain the uniformity of nature. Just in case you don't know what the uniformity of nature is let me explain. It is what makes science possible. It is the belief that nature behaves in a predictable manner so you can take past experiences and use them to predict future ones. Please explain. The philosophical aspect is the heart of a creation vs evolution debate. Answer all that and get back to me. Also if you know what your worldview is tell me that too. If you don't google it. If you don't know the answers just say or google it till you come up with one you agree with.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> Okay, So yets assume evolution. Riddle me this. What are the laws of logic, where do they come from. What is Moriarty, and where does it come from, is it absolute?. How do you explain the uniformity of nature. Just in case you don't know what the uniformity of nature is let me explain. It is what makes science possible. It is the belief that nature behaves in a predictable manner so you can take past experiences and use them to predict future ones. Please explain. The philosophical aspect is the heart of a creation vs evolution debate. Answer all that and get back to me. Also if you know what your worldview is tell me that too. If you don't google it. If you don't know the answers just say or google it till you come up with one you agree with.


I assume evolution the same way that many people assume religion. The main difference is that I have empirical evidence to back up my assumption. Instead of empirical evidence, religion has "faith" in some magical being in the sky.

Are you a Young Earth creationist?

Logic doesn't have to "come from" somewhere. It just exists...like the universe. Science is possible because it exists. It is knowledge, not a theory.

I have now answered and gotten back to you. I also know my worldview, and it doesn't include some mythical being that only exists in peoples' belief systems.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Oh just to add. What i want to know is how any worldview which has evolution in it can provide the preconditions of intelligibility. Those are what make the human experience intelligent or meaningful. Those would be: reliability of memory, reliability of senses, laws of logic, uniformity of nature, morality, personal freedom. If you want me to explain why those are necessary i will go right ahead.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

ptras said:


> I assume evolution the same way that many people assume religion. The main difference is that I have empirical evidence to back up my assumption. Instead of empirical evidence, religion has "faith" in some magical being in the sky.
> 
> Are you a Young Earth creationist?


You have failed to explain any of my questions sir. Please reread and start to answer them.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Also, i was an atheist for many years i guessed you missed that part. You fail to understand worldviews. Evidence does win a debate on evolution. To think so is to have completely misunderstand worldviews. Your worldview tells you how to interpret evidence. Its a debate of worldviews not evidences. If you think you interpret evidence without any bias and in a neutral fashion we can go there also.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> Also, i was an atheist for many years i guessed you missed that part. You fail to understand worldviews. Evidence does win a debate on evolution. To think so is to have completely misunderstand worldviews. Your worldview tells you how to interpret evidence. Its a debate of worldviews not evidences. If you think you interpret evidence without any bias and in a neutral fashion we can go there also.


Circular logic. You are giving me all the arguments in favor of religion that most intelligent people use in favor of reality. I see that you are prepared to argue your point ad infinitum, but you have not given me one shred of evidence to support your beliefs. Having been an atheist (and yes I did read that earlier, I just chose to ignore it), you must have made some jump from non-belief to belief. What caused that? Did something happen in your life to prove to you that god or gods exist?


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> You have failed to explain any of my questions sir. Please reread and start to answer them.


I worked years ago for a human dynamics company. I learned all about how to prove people wrong if they were unable to give the answer that I was seeking. But, deep down inside, I knew that inability to disprove something does not make it a truth.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

ptras said:


> Circular logic. You are giving me all the arguments in favor of religion that most intelligent people use in favor of reality. I see that you are prepared to argue your point ad infinitum, but you have not given me one shred of evidence to support your beliefs. Having been an atheist (and yes I did read that earlier, I just chose to ignore it), you must have made some jump from non-belief to belief. What caused that? Did something happen in your life to prove to you that god or gods exist?


What circular logic? You can't just say circular logic and not say how haha. I'm asking you questions and once again you can't or won't answer them. Once again evidence is not the question. Please look to above post. What is your worldview. Are you a naturalist. What is you "ultimate authority in reasoning" every beleif is based upon another belief and so on and so forth. Where does yours end? I'll explain this if you need me to.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ptras said:


> Awww c'mon SW. Don't be a buzzkill on a nice argument!


yeah.... it's just so "not worth it!'...lol...


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> What circular logic? You can't just say circular logic and not say how haha. I'm asking you questions and once again you can't or won't answer them. Once again evidence is not the question. Please look to above post. What is your worldview. Are you a naturalist. What is you "ultimate authority in reasoning" every beleif is based upon another belief and so on and so forth. Where does yours end? I'll explain this if you need me to.


I see that you want to discredit my beliefs because I won't answer your questions to your satisfaction. I also see that you don't answer my questions. What does this mean? I need you to explain things to me...not. haha. Do you need me to explain to you some things? Like how to use a spell-checker?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

no one knows it all... me hubby thinks we are worm food.. me well.. no.. and I do not have to have proof... it is just in my being.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> no one knows it all... me hubby thinks we a worm food.. me well.. no.. and I do not have to have proof... it is just in my being.


I believe that all of the universe exists because DNA is compelled to reproduce itself.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ptras said:


> I believe that all of the universe exists because DNA is compelled to reproduce itself.


and it knows how?.. because of robotic nature?..or.................. we will know at the end.. faith to me.. is saying..I sure do not know what life is and where it began with the spark of life. Iam not so big to say..... I know..


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Good ad hominem, what does spelling have to do with the points at hand.. You have not even began to tell me a belief. Please restate your questions and I will address them.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

This thread is going downhill quickly 

Can you guys please handle this via PM? The thread will probably be closed soon as religion is not a topic we're supposed to discuss here, because it causes too many arguments like this one! 

Everyone has their own beliefs and opinions. Just because yours are different from others doesn't mean yours is right and theirs is wrong. You could be right, he could be right, or we could all be wrong. Just believe what you want and you will find out the truth in the end.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> Good ad hominem, what does spelling have to do with the points at hand.. You have not even began to tell me a belief. Please restate your questions and I will address them.


It is impossible to ascribe *ultimate authority in reasoning* to someone/something without said someone/something declaring itself the ultimate authority. People of most commonly held worldviews, whether knowingly or unknowingly, declare one single thing/person to be the ultimate authority. For instance, Christians declare God to be the ultimate authority; Rationalists declare reason to be the ultimate authority, Some but not all atheists declare science to be the ultimate authority. No matter what the object may be, one cannot ascribe ultimate authority to it unless the object itself categorically declares itself 'I am the ultimate authority'. Everybody who believes in an ultimate authority follows circular reasoning.

I apologize for the cheap shot about your spelling. That is the old "street arguer" coming out in me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you subscribe to a belief, and therefore expect that all others should subscribe to that belief. You find reasons why the rest of us are wrong if we do not agree with you. Why, again, did you go from non-belief to belief? It didn't just happen randomly.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

ptras said:


> I believe that all of the universe exists because DNA is compelled to reproduce itself.


Before DNA was there a reason for he existence of the universe? How is truth determined?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

ptras said:


> It is impossible to ascribe *ultimate authority in reasoning* to someone/something without said someone/something declaring itself the ultimate authority. People of most commonly held worldviews, whether knowingly or unknowingly, declare one single thing/person to be the ultimate authority. For instance, Christians declare God to be the ultimate authority; Rationalists declare reason to be the ultimate authority, Some but not all atheists declare science to be the ultimate authority. No matter what the object may be, one cannot ascribe ultimate authority to it unless the object itself categorically declares itself 'I am the ultimate authority'. Everybody who believes in an ultimate authority follows circular reasoning.


Circular reasoning is not fallacious in dealing with an UA. So since you don't have one you can't prove or know anything right? Not even your name.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Paki Tipplers said:


> Circular reasoning is not fallacious in dealing with an UA. So since you don't have one you can't prove or know anything right? Not even your name.


Or so you believe. But, you then tell me that circular reasoning is fallacious when dealing with science? Beliefs are interesting. When I come across one as stubbornly held as yours, it always fascinates me, and makes me wonder how it evolved.


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> This thread is going downhill quickly
> 
> Can you guys please handle this via PM? The thread will probably be closed soon as religion is not a topic we're supposed to discuss here, because it causes too many arguments like this one!
> 
> Everyone has their own beliefs and opinions. Just because yours are different from others doesn't mean yours is right and theirs is wrong. You could be right, he could be right, or we could all be wrong. Just believe what you want and you will find out the truth in the end.


ssh~~~~~~ let's just listen to them kikikikiki


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Since you don't have a UA you can't prove anything therefore you can't prove UA are fallacious.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ptras said:


> Or so you believe. But, you then tell me that circular reasoning is fallacious when dealing with science? Beliefs are interesting. When I come across one as stubbornly held as yours, it always fascinates me, and makes me wonder how it evolved.


it is not that hard to figure.. one has faith in something greater..another does not.. if you do not.. well one day it may find you.. who knows.. be open.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Please don't take SW post as a reflection of my own no offense to SW


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

[I hopeQUOTE=Paki Tipplers;584843]Please don't take SW post as a reflection of my own no offense to SW[/QUOTE]
i
why would he?.. he knows I think he is ok in my book.. reguardless.... I hope..


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## Pigeon Dude (Mar 23, 2011)

Gosh. They are white homing pigeons to pigeon people and they are "white doves" to people who do not have a clue as to how cool pigeons are. When I lived in an apartment, I asked my landlord permission to build an outdoor "dove cage" in our balcony. He gave permission and I proceeded to breed white indian fantails. If I had asked to raise pigeons in the balcony, it would have evoked images of green guano on the railings. Instead, he loved my birds. Same principle here. People hear pigeon and they think of dirty statues in a park. Not really an issue. Just a matter of successfully conveying to people who would otherwise be biased that they are pretty white birds for releasing and not white "rats with wings". Not much to get all tangled up about. They are pigeons. Does that all make sense?


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

I SURE HAPPY IN mEXICO WE CALL ALL OF THEM La paloma del castillo. So i am growing a La paloma del castillo release program and I to am a follower of Christ but fell this thread is way off base. Good Night


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## Pigeon Dude (Mar 23, 2011)

Just figured I'd chime in about the actual topic at hand. Why is the white dove/pigeon thing even an issue again?


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## Pigeon Dude (Mar 23, 2011)

GEMcC5150 said:


> I SURE HAPPY IN mEXICO WE CALL ALL OF THEM La paloma del castillo. So i am growing a La paloma del castillo release program and I to am a follower of Christ but fell this thread is way off base. Good Night


Y yo tam bien, mi hermano.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Paki Tipplers said:


> the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people. They are doing a disservice to the community. By calling them doves and not pigeons because "pigeons are dirty". Its more or less conforming by lying. Doves and pigeons were *created* separately from one another. They are to distinct lines of animals and can not be used interchangeably.


the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people.
Sorry, I have to disagree with this statement.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

rackerman said:


> the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people.
> Sorry, I have to disagree with this statement.


I think that is where it began .. sweet rackerman.. so it has to be rectified..and go off topic.. which happend..with dove..and then religion.. and such..but.. no ONE was ugly.. so that is nice.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

rackerman said:


> the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people.
> Sorry, I have to disagree with this statement.


I later said I had a bad experience with one and that I shouldn't think they are all like that.


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Paki Tipplers said:


> I later said I had a bad experience with one and that I shouldn't think they are all like that.


Were cool...............


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## Pigeon Dude (Mar 23, 2011)

White dove release are just as much pigeon people as white king / squab farmers. They just specialize in creating flocks of white homers for release. They do not deny that they have white racing homers or even try to hide it. They are proud of their flocks, as well they should be. Why get all over them? Let them enjoy a breed that they love. They don't give the hobby a bad name. They actually get it out in front of people. Every little girl dreams of being a beautiful bride. But not many dream of raising a flock of pigeons. But I know of a great many brides who have wanted white birds released at their weddings. Most are amazed and and pleasantly surprised to find out that those doves are actually white pigeons. Why let it bother us, when it is really a positive thing? This is a pretty great site. Why nit pick and turn it into a hate blog? Enjoy the hobby, embrace anyone who has a passion for pigeons. And hats off to them if they can break even or possibly make some sort of profit. I think I'm going to have to jump off this thread, because it is pretty likely to continue down the judgmental, antagonistic road.


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## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

Paki Tipplers said:


> the "dove release people" really are not pigeon people. They are doing a disservice to the community. By calling them doves and not pigeons because "pigeons are dirty". Its more or less conforming by lying. Doves and pigeons were *created* separately from one another. They are to distinct lines of animals and can not be used interchangeably.


This statement truly offends me and could not be further from the truth..We ARE (pigeon people) as you call it. I too have a ceremonial white dove release business and do very well with it I must say. We breed our best to get the best, we do everything we can to improve the birds in both beauty and in distance flying.We go thru all the trap training, road training and general husbandry a good pigeon fancier does. My White Homers can safely return home from up to 2oo kilos. Are they as good as the racing homers that race? I think not but nonetheless they are homers and are raised and bred just as every other fancier does. I agree there are some irresponcible people out there and some uneducated people that release Ringneck Doves (Streptopelia Risoria) at weddings and or funerals. It is totally unethical to do that as they will certainly parish. To say our business is a diservice to the community is again wrong. If you have seen with your own eyes the effect the release has at a funeral is very overwhelming, and certainly does have an influence on (letting go) the loved one. We are very involved in community activities and always place first or second in every parade we go in. People love the beauty of the birds and how can you not love the breath taking beauty of these birds.

Hank


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Paki Tipplers said:


> I later said I had a bad experience with one and that I shouldn't think they are all like that.


. .


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Looks like two choices:

1. Close the thread

2. Delete or edit every post which is off topic

1 is easier


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