# Canker and Coccidiosis



## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

*Canker vs Coccidiosis*

Hi everyone, 
I was wondering if someone can tell me how to tell these 2 disease apart. I've read many, many articles online and it seems that both have almost the same symptoms. I know that a very visible symptom of canker is sores inside the beak. But I also read that sometimes there are NO sores and it's because the canker has affected internal organs and not the crop/mouth. 

I ask this because recently I found a sick feral pigeon, sadly he passed away the same day I found him. All the symptoms pointed to one of these two, but I wasn't able to figure out which one it was! 

Is there anything, like the droppings, the smell, etc that tells them apart? I know the best thing is to get them tested, but what if I that can't be done? how can I know which is which?

Thanks in advance


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jenny, that's a good question. Unfortunately, also hard to answer. Of course having the bird checked would be best, but without that, sometimes you have to treat for both. Often if a bird has cocci, it will also have wet canker. The same thing can cause either........stress. Sometimes, if not sure, I will treat with Coximed. You give one tablet, then 10 days later you give another tablet. For the 10 days in between, I would treat with Metro for canker. Also, cocci sometimes will have some blood in the dropping, which would be very loose, and smell bad. But worms can cause that also. With canker, the droppings will often turn to that very dark green, which are starvation droppings from not eating, and will have a lot of water around it as they tend to drink more with canker. Often the birds breath has a bad smell also. So, if you aren't sure, or because sometimes the 2 go hand in hand, you could treat for both.


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

Thank you so much for that great explanation, Jay! The bird that I found recently didn't have bad breath, but after he passed away he had a bad smell coming out of his beak and there was also a clear sticky liquid coming out. The sick bird that I found a few months ago (that also passed away) had the same symptoms but did not have the bad smell in the beak.

What they both had in common was smelly droppings, with mustard-yellowish urates, but no blood. Also they were both young birds. 

I guess it is hard to tell these 2 diseases apart, i thought about treating for both but I didn't know it was possible! so thank you so much, because now I know it can be done!! Can you please tell me where can I buy metro? and what is the dose? most pigeons that I have found on the street are very skinny and the sick ones were even skinnier! they were mostly bones. Is the dose the same for a skinny feral? can I give 1 tablet of CocciMed to them too?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yellow urates could likely be an indication of illness affecting the liver. That doesn't mean _specifically_ Canker, but Canker is one possibility.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

John is right about the yellow urates. When I have seen that, it has been canker.
I have bought both the Coximed and Fishzole at Jedd's pigeon supply, but last time got the Fishzole on ebay. And most pigeon supplies would have them. I usually buy the Fishzole, which is Metronidazole, because it comes 250mg, and I can just quarter the tablets, so you get more for your money. But the Meditrich is good too, as it is coated, so helps cut down on vomiting. Although it is still halved, as it comes in 100 mg.
Normally 50 mg for an adult pigeon, once daily for 7 to 10 days, and 30 mg for squabs or squeakers. So if the bird is really skinny, you could go anywhere from the 30 to maybe 40mg. If the canker is really stubborn, it can take a couple of weeks to clear.
I would still use the 1 tablet of coxiMed. It's only for one day, then one more on the tenth day.


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> John is right about the yellow urates. When I have seen that, it has been canker.
> I have bought both the Coximed and Fishzole at Jedd's pigeon supply, but last time got the Fishzole on ebay. And most pigeon supplies would have them. I usually buy the Fishzole, which is Metronidazole, because it comes 250mg, and I can just quarter the tablets, so you get more for your money. But the Meditrich is good too, as it is coated, so helps cut down on vomiting. Although it is still halved, as it comes in 100 mg.
> Normally 50 mg for an adult pigeon, once daily for 7 to 10 days, and 30 mg for squabs or squeakers. So if the bird is really skinny, you could go anywhere from the 30 to maybe 40mg. If the canker is really stubborn, it can take a couple of weeks to clear.
> I would still use the 1 tablet of coxiMed. It's only for one day, then one more on the tenth day.


THANK YOU!! I will save this info as I am sure I will need it someday! I think I will get Meditrich as I don't want to stress them even more with the vomiting. Thank you again so much!!





John_D said:


> Yellow urates could likely be an indication of illness affecting the liver. That doesn't mean _specifically_ Canker, but Canker is one possibility.


but isn't canker green (from not eating) watery droppings? these illnesses are so confusing  

this was the poop from the bird I am talking about, does it look like canker poop? thanks for your reply by the way


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

JennyM said:


> THANK YOU!! I will save this info as I am sure I will need it someday! I think I will get Meditrich as I don't want to stress them even more with the vomiting. Thank you again so much!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That why there are vets.
The green starvation droppings don't mean canker. That just means that for whatever reason, the bird hasn't been eating. You can't tell what is going on, just by looking at the droppings. Also, a bird that is owned, and a feral bird would easily have different droppings for the same thing. An example is that a pet bird would probably have the green droppings and a lot of water around them, because with canker they normally drink a lot. But caught earlier, that wouldn't be the case. A feral may not have such easy access to water, so may not be able to drink as much. Hence the droppings would be different. You just can't put so much stock in the droppings. Could mean anything. The droppings are good to alert you to the fact that there is a problem. Takes more than that to figure out just what the problem is. The more familiar you become with these things, the better idea you can have of what the problem is. Even then, can't always be sure. Also there could be multiple things going on, and often are.


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## JennyM (Sep 21, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> That why there are vets.


I know, but they are soooo expensive, I can't spend that much on every bird I find, but I want to be able to help them  



Jay3 said:


> *The green starvation droppings don't mean canker. That just means that for whatever reason, the bird hasn't been eating. *You can't tell what is going on, just by looking at the droppings. Also, a bird that is owned, and a feral bird would easily have different droppings for the same thing. An example is that a pet bird would probably have the green droppings and a lot of water around them, because with canker they normally drink a lot. But caught earlier, that wouldn't be the case. A feral may not have such easy access to water, so may not be able to drink as much. Hence the droppings would be different. You just can't put so much stock in the droppings. Could mean anything. The droppings are good to alert you to the fact that there is a problem. Takes more than that to figure out just what the problem is. The more familiar you become with these things, the better idea you can have of what the problem is. Even then, can't always be sure. Also there could be multiple things going on, and often are.


I thought the green droppings meant canker! thanks so much for taking the time to clarify that for me!!! now I understand the whole thing a lot better!! Thank you!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There are lots of thing that will make a bird not eat, and therefore have those dark green starvation droppings. They could be ill or injured. Even a lost bird who can't find food and is starving to death would have them. 
They often do have them with canker, as they stop eating and drink more. 
John mentioned that the urates can be yellow with canker, and he is right. But even then, other disease can cause that also. And yes, believe me I do know that avian vets are expensive, unfortunately. But what I was saying is that sometime there is no other way to be sure of what the problem is.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Thread made me google the two conditions. Found this:
http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/m...eight-most-common-health-problems-in-pigeons/
http://www.oropharma.nl/gauss/Pages/EN/Duiven/Ziekten/Coccidiose.htm
Would be cautious about guessing what is wrong and would consult a vet before treating for a suspected disease. The versele-laga site offers remedies but I would be careful just treating without a confirmed diagnosis.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks cwebster, but their articles aren't very informative. There is a list of symptoms for canker, and they didn't list any of them. I have seen their website before.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/whats-new/racing-pigeon-diseases-every-fancier-should-know/
Am just looking for articles comparing various diseases.
http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/canker.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Canker ---------- By Dr. Colin Walker

CANKER SYMPTOMS IN SQUABS

Not all these symptoms will be present in each case. The symptoms first appear 6 days after infection.

Visible lump in the neck or navel area.
Stretched skin over site of lesion.
Cheesy growth in mouth or throat.
Patches of baldness around neck and mouth .
Slow blinking
Ruffled feathers
Loose watery droppings
Excessive thirst
Loss of appetite
Loss of weight

Also, the bird will often stretch his head forward and appear to be trying to swallow.
When a baby just doesn't seem well, and has any of these symptoms, it is usually canker as it is so common.


SYMPTOMS IN ADULTS

Not all these symptoms will be visible in each patient:

Visible lump in neck or vent
Firm yellow or brown cheesy mass in back of mouth
Soft flat creamy white growths in throat
Inability to swallow seed
Mouth may be partially open
Birds stand upright with head high and neck straight (penguin posture)
Crop full of water
Distortion or swelling of forehead (if sinuses have been invaded)
Vomiting
Increased mucous in the throat

Canker ---------- By Dr. Colin Walker


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, thank you for the list of canker symptoms. If a bird has loose droppings but no cheesy growth in the throat, how can you tell this from coccidia? Our birds had coccidia per the vet and were treated twice for it. Only Chloe, who had circovirus, also had canker and she had pretty much everything a bird could have wrong all at once...canker, yeast, coccidia, malaria, aspergillosis, and circovirus. . All our egg laying females who seem pretty healthy produce very large piles of loose droppings when hormonal. Is there a simple way to differentiate among all these loose poops to know whether the loose poop is a sign of ill health by itself?
http://www.internationalcockatielresource.com/droppings.html
http://www.mickaboo.org/sites/default/files/files/4q2010_newsletter_Poopology.pdf
https://www.beautyofbirds.com/poopology.html
Fiona used to have the best poop I have ever seen when we first got her. All our birds now have weirdish poop. If it changes I take the poop or bird to the vet. A lot of times it is greenish and loose so I never know what normal poop looks like. But the vet keeps telling me they are fine. They seem healthy and active and eat well. But their poop just isn't as perfect as Fionas poop used to look.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster said:


> Jay3, thank you for the list of canker symptoms. If a bird has loose droppings but no cheesy growth in the throat, how can you tell this from coccidia? Our birds had coccidia per the vet and were treated twice for it. Only Chloe, who had circovirus, also had canker and she had pretty much everything a bird could have wrong all at once...canker, yeast, coccidia, malaria, aspergillosis, and circovirus. . All our egg laying females who seem pretty healthy produce piles of loose droppings when hormonal. *Is there a simple way to differentiate among all these loose poops to know whether the loose poop is a sign of ill health by itself?*
> 
> Not really. When they are on eggs or babies, you expect that kind of dropping.
> 
> ...


........................................................


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

https://exoticanimalmed.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/bird-poop-whats-normal-whats-not/
After looking at poop pictures until I think I've seen enough, I think they are probably ok.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sure they're okay. Relax. They're normal.


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