# Undergrizzle adds lacing



## Shan (Feb 4, 2012)

I was intrigued when this Moroncelo thief pouter x Pica Deportiva cross cock matured. Moroncelos carry a heavy dose of Undergrizzle so I expected to see some of that influence in the progeny. His tail shows the Undergrizzle in every feather. I was NOT, however, ready for this beautiful lace effect in his wing shield. The bird also shows a bit of the bronze in the thief pouter gene pool on both sides of the cross.










Shan


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Beautiful bird. Very interesting wing pattern!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I am unfamiliar with the Moroncelo thief pouter. Could you post a picture?

The bird in this picture looksto be too extreme to be an example of undergrizzle, but could be a case of pencil (a recessive gene at the recessive white locus according to some). 

There is also a lot of pied in this bird, which just throws a spanner in the works even more.

Here is a picture of spread pencilled (notice the dark head, similar to the bird in this post):







(photo from Robert Mangile's website)


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## Shan (Feb 4, 2012)

Rudolph -- I haven't seen Pencil in the Thief Pouter gene pool; doesn't mean it isn't there. I just have never seen it. Now the bird in question could be BOTH, but he certainly has Undergrizzle based on the dark vein on his Undergrizzle tail.

His sire is a typical Moroncelo cock with Undergrizzle, bronze, smoky, T-pattern. He is in my Cruzados album here in PT.

His dam is a rather mundane, typical Pica Deportiva with bronze influence in her bars. Nothing more. She is the only BB in my album.

His nestmate brother shows the bronze influence, but is a typical T-pattern check otherwise. Also in my album.

One sibling is a beautiful tail-marked cock. he's the one displaying on the roof in my album.

The other white birds in my album are also siblings. I'd attach their photos but PT is NOT cooperating. Hence my reason for sending you to my album.

But . . . I will keep looking in the nest bowls to see what else shows up. There are two more squeakers, siblings to the cock in question, in the nest right now. Both look like tail-marks, again, with Undergrizzle tails.

Thanks for posing that "stop and think" question.

Shan


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

The fact that there is a tailmark in the mix gives me some pause. Obviously your birs are carrying some interesting recessive traits.

Pencil shows the same dark vein as undergrizzle in the flights and tail. I agree with you, your bird maybe has both. Breeding tests would be necessary to be sure. 

I've been looking for some definitfe information on undergrizzle, but coulnd't find any. Some sites say it is dominant, some rescessive. Even Hunltey's desription is vague at best. This means I should just stay out of the cauldron here. Maybe your bird is the standard expression for homozygous undergrizzle? Does the mother also has to be undergrizzle (looks like her flights have a white base and coloured tips). Maybe that is an expression of heterozygous undergrizzle but is different from the undergrizzle int the father.

I don't know the encestry of the Moroncelo thiefs (though obviously they are a breed of thief - and they all come from the same parent stock - the original parent stock Horseman Pouters maybe?). There could be quite a lot of recessive genes hidden in some of the remaining 'flying' breeds, since they were almost never bred for color alone, and thus selection (for or against) some of the more interesting genes was not as strict.

You have some beautiful birds in your loft. Very interesting combinations of undergrizzle, bronze and spread. Some looks like they might carry RR aswell (the bronzes are more bronze when het RR - at least in my homers).


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## Shan (Feb 4, 2012)

*Aha!*

Rudolph -- you are on to something I missed. I didn't even see the undergrizzle in that Blue hen or, if I did, dismissed it. The photo of the hen SHOWS that undergrizzling. Thanks for your kind comments re their beauty. They are, but I'm simply the proud Papa.

The spread and spread grizzle Moron x Pica birds in my album have a recessive red grizzle mother. She masks the spread gene and who knows what else. More mysteries to solve. So, yes, there is recessive red in the Pica gene pool.

Undergrizzle is an engima for sure. I have not found much info either except for mention of Axel Sell's comments re Ug (I'll use this symbol to shorten all of those letters a bit; and, yes, I know it isn't THE correct symbol) and those made by Dave Rhinehart.

Axel states that Ug is very common in combination with some peibald markings. That is the case with these Moroncelo thief pouters. But even he indicates "the inheritance seems to be recessive or intermediate." Others say recessive. A PTF poster noted that he/she thought it was a partial dominant gene. Could be both based on the breeds involved in the ancestry. I see the same issue driving me mad in one of my Leopard Gecko projects dealing with a morph called White & Yellows. No definitive answers, yet. 

My notes are incomplete (wouldn't my students hoot about that) but I do have mention that "If the bird were to carry this gene twice (homozygous Ug//Ug) . . . it would show more white with colored tips throughout. As it molted to it's [sic] adult plumage, it would become even more white with a sprinkling of pigmented feathers giving it a mottled or Tiger Grizzle look. Unlike Tiger Grizzle that only effects the front portion of the bird, Undergrizzle effects all parts including the wing and tail feathers."

So your postulation that these near white crosses are carrying two doses of Ug might be correct.

Dave states that " . . . the shafts of the tail feathers [in Ug] are pigmented. This is significant, as the shafts of Flash are NOT pigmented. . . . WFH thought [that Flash] is a part of the grizzle/recessive white/pencil/tail mark series."

Of course, this was in a discussion of Flash grizzle, but . . . Dave makes it clear that Ug has pigmented feather shafts. My birds have deep, black pigmented tail shafts. But that brings up another question, Rudolph, and anyone who can help me dissect this gene a bit more. James Gratz posted a posthumous artuicle on Drizzle by Larry Long.

Larry says that "Ug in the homozygous state causes a WHITENING [emphasis mine] of the basal feather shafts."

Hmmmm, now what? LOL.

I'm glad you jumped into the fray, Rudolph, as you have now opened a few more cans of worms for me to wrestle with. At 62 I'm not doing much wrestling these days, save in the pigeon loft with thorny devils like Ug and possibly Pencil.

Oh, the Moroncelos do not have any Horseman TPs in their ancestry. They are typical of many Spanish thief pouter breeds. They started with a "pigeon of zeal" (don't have a clue) and crossed them, in the mid-1900s, with the parent stock of many STPs breeds--the Valencianos. Then, at the same time, the breeders added some blood from the Colillano via the Quebrado Murciano. Then in the early '40s crossed this line with a non-specific pigeon which was "neither the classic 'Morrillero' nor the 'deportiva' but similar to both." 

The Moroncelo standard (although it is primarily a "working" or "flying" breed) states that "All colours are accepted, always interspersed with white, preference to darker, copper coloured birds and pied markings."

If you Google Moroncelo you will see that the pied markings are indeed the standard color of this wonderful breed of Spanish thief pouter.

Finally, I have a Khaki hen (no pied; nada) in the nest from a Horseman TP brown bar cock carrying dilute crossed with a Moroncelo hen. The cross of a Morrillero TP ash-red sooty bar cock crossed with a Moroncelo hen has eggs due today. I'm guessing I'll see the same results in that nest--no pied.

Enough of an old man's prattle.

Shan


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Actually Ug is the correct symbol. Well, more accurately U^g. Some have had recessive experiences with it, some have had dominant. I personally have had both experiences. Which leads me to believe there are two genes with similar effects but different ways of inheriting them. Alleles of each other? Don't know. Could be. The addition of bronze is probably helping make the bird more white. I'm not sure about it being pencilled as usually those start out darker and moult in more white. But then again, they think there are also two different types of pencil, some leaving a white bird with colored head such as Mooreheads, and some leaving more color, like the Baghdads.


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## Shan (Feb 4, 2012)

Yup, that's why I said I knew that "Ug" as I typed it was incorrect Mary. The superscript g is correct. Can't make them using the PTF tools at hand. It's been a long time since I dabbled in pigeon genetics--thinking back it seems that WFH wrote an article about the gazzi pied allelles, including undergrizzle in that mix with a Z and superscript Ug. But . . . it's been awhile. And we have since lost that wonderful mind.

You do realize, all of you genetics dabblers, that what you are doing on the PTF is EXACTLY what Doc did with his thousands of letters and his visits to Iowa shows over the years. When I viisted him in Ames in 1980, I asked about all of this scribbling he'd been doing over the years and years and years. In essence, he's just one man--a scientist who happened to study pigeon genetics and KNEW that he--all by himself--would NEVER see every mutant that arose in the lofts around the US. His letters and his newsletter brought a scientist (him), pigeon scientists (degreed and not so degreed), and many backyard pigeon breeders together. Now the Internet and forums like the PTF do so at the speed of light. I provide Exhibit A. I drop in a photo of a "pretty" thief pouter pigeon on the PTF and get a reply from Rudolph in South Africa, etc. Keep up the good work that WFH started. Bravo!

I've added a new album with some of my Spanish thief pouters with undergrizzle. Still have to photograph the mother of all these white birds--the Blue Bar with undergrizzle that Rudolph spied in my own photos.

Then I can start on the Catalonian tumbler album with almond, hickory almond, ash-red hickory almond, bronzes of all sorts, and others. Eegads!

Thanks for your input. I'm sure to throw out some other "pretty" photos for your keen eyes to view and inquisitive minds to wrestle with.

Shan


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

I have a line of undergrizzles in my loft and my experience, after numerous test matings, has been that it is dominant. Perhaps Becky is right that there is more than one gene producing the same or similar effect. I also have what I now believe to be a pseudo-tiger grizzle which might, infact, be homozygous undergrizzle. He is the original source of all of the undergrizzle in my loft. But he has never produced another tiger grizzle. You can find him in my album. His name is Oreo. Neat conversation.

Jim


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Did you breed Oreo and watch the feathers turn to white? He could be piebald and undergrizzle.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

loonecho said:


> I have a line of undergrizzles in my loft and my experience, after numerous test matings, has been that it is dominant. Perhaps Becky is right that there is more than one gene producing the same or similar effect. I also have what I now believe to be a pseudo-tiger grizzle which might, infact, be homozygous undergrizzle. He is the original source of all of the undergrizzle in my loft. But he has never produced another tiger grizzle. You can find him in my album. His name is Oreo. Neat conversation.
> 
> Jim


Tiger does not affect the tail of the bird, and tigers moult into their white (they start out dark - or even solid - and get more white with the adult moult). On the other hand, you might have both Ug and GT in the same bird.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Shan said:


> Yup, that's why I said I knew that "Ug" as I typed it was incorrect Mary. The superscript g is correct. Can't make them using the PTF tools at hand. It's been a long time since I dabbled in pigeon genetics--thinking back it seems that WFH wrote an article about the gazzi pied allelles, including undergrizzle in that mix with a Z and superscript Ug. But . . . it's been awhile. And we have since lost that wonderful mind.


You are right, the late, great, WF Hollander did orinially postulate that undergrizzle was an allele of recessive white, but research has shown differently, and people are still making strong (but not definitive) cases that pencilled is or is not allelic to recessive white and Gazzi. The cases are not as clear cut as it was for the colour and pattern series, since as Becky said, there may be more than one gene causing the same (or similar) pheotypes involved here. People can't even agree on the extreme dilute (lemon) / ecru debate. This is why we need to keep very good notes and try to publish some results in the PGNL or similar. It fires up the debate, and a healty debate is what keeps the study of pigeon genetics alive!

I think Ug is actually the correct symbol (as is Od). superscript letters are used to indicate that there are other genes at the same locus. (The blue locus for instance, B^+ is dominant to brown b, but then ash red needs a symbol too, with the same base letter(s) B, and thus B^A, similarly for the St locus and its myriad alleles). Such is not the case for Ud, as it started life off being assumed to be at another locus z^Ug but was proved to be independent of the recessive white locus. The z was dropped and it became Ug (capital since it is dominant/co-domiant). U^g would mean a gene at the u locus (which has not been used as far as I know).


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Did you breed Oreo and watch the feathers turn to white? He could be piebald and undergrizzle.


Oreo definitely has piepald in him and undergrizzle as well. He doesn't seem to follow the rules. He started out very light colored and has moulted in more black each year like an almond. His young have shorter than normal down but not the nealy non-existant down I see in my true almonds. And none of his offspring moult in more colored feathers each year regardless of sex. When paired with another piebald hen, he has thrown some birds that are mostly white. "Bandit" in my album is one example. Also when paired with a nealy all white daughter, he through "nucklehead", a crested, grouse-legged cock bird. I don't think I am done discovering all of his genetic factors yet. I have him paired to an indigo hen right now and their first squab was a bronze t-pattern blue.

Jim


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have had grizzles go both ways. I have a few that started out looking like stork marks and then moult in more solid colored feathers throughout the body. Grizzle varies so much it can get confusing. Could be different modifiers that cause it to go from one "extreme" to the other or could be different alleles of grizzle. It would need some studying. Eventually I would like to study frillback grizzle when I have the time, to see how exactly it works.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have had grizzles go both ways. I have a few that started out looking like stork marks and then moult in more solid colored feathers throughout the body. Grizzle varies so much it can get confusing. Could be different modifiers that cause it to go from one "extreme" to the other or could be different alleles of grizzle. It would need some studying. Eventually I would like to study frillback grizzle when I have the time, to see how exactly it works.


My experience has been that blue T-pattern grizzles start light and moult in darker, while blue bar grizzles start darker and moult in lighter (actually except for the bars on the blue bar, the two genotypes show almost exctly the same light grey grizzle shields in the nest).

I also finally bred a brown grizzle this season, she is a T-pattern, but has not shown nearly as much darkening over time as her blue T-pattern grizzle sibling or her blue T-pattern grizzle father and grand-mother.


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