# Tip for breeding brown into your birds



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So I have not seen recognition on colour charts to what I refer to as partially sex linked pairs.

The obvious ones are: 

Ash red cock carrying blue paired with an ash red hen will produce 

Cocks -all red with 50% carrying blue other 50% **** for ash red 

Hens - 50% ash red and 50% blue

In this example if you produce a blue you know its a hen, You will get reds in both sexes so this is why I see it as partially sex linked

Now this would apply the same obviously for a blue cock carrying brown paired to a blue hen, You would not get brown cocks therefore any browns you could count on being hens.

Now for the next one which is a little different, 

An Ash red cock carrying brown paired to a blue hen.

Cocks: 50% ash red carrying blue, 50% blue carrying brown

Hens: 50% Ash red, 50% Brown

So in this instance the only blue bird you produce will be cockbirds carrying brown,


I am sure a lot here already know this but for those who don't I thought it was a handy tip for anyone putting Brown into their breed, I am doing it at the moment with my thief pouters and am about half way there.

The reason I bought this up is I got some tips from a well known genetics guy on how to get brown into the breed, this was at the beginning of my interest in genetics and had limited knowledge so asked for the formula to get me started, I am sure the guy knew of this method but for simplicitys sake left it out to save confusing me, The main thing I remember from this was to only keep brown hens from one cross and then any cockbird from the next and keep putting them back to good thiefs which is all true, This method however meant The cockbirds from every second cross were useless and the same with the hens on the other cross, With this method of pairing an ash red cock carrying brown to a blue hen it means that you can keep blue cock birds and brown hens from any clutch and be certain you are retaining the Brown. 

Ok so Im done babbling, Hope it makes sense,

Now to my questions:

Does anyone use this method already or know of any other partially sex linked pairings that aren't well recognised?

It's funny, I only stumbled across this today when I was close to giving up a wee blue bird from a clutch off the pairing I have described above. I got a blue and a brown and before I gave it away I suddenly thought that it could be a cock carrying brown, I then thought some more and realised It has to be that so im keeping the wee thing. Ok im babbling again.

Thanks for reading to anyone that has made it this far.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok so I made it too long and noone wants to read lol?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Any kind of sex-linking makes me happy. I have a few pairs of ash-red birds where the cockbird carries blue. I always know the blues are hens. And the reds with flecks are males, but then there's the possibility of pure ash-red males but oh well! 

Any pairings dealing with recessive genes that can be sex-linked can also be "partially sexlinked". Things like almond, which ARE sex-linked if it's an almond hen with a non almond cockbird....notice it doesn't work the other way because almond is dominant and thus a cockbird cannot carry it without showing it.

Some other partially sex-linked pairings:

- Intense cockbird carrying dilute x intense hen: You'll only get 25% dilutes but they will all be hens
- Intense cockbird carrying extreme dilute x intense hen: Same thing as above but with extreme dilute instead
- Non pale cockbird carrying pale x non-pale hen: Same thing as above but pale
- Non reduced cockbird carrying reduced x non reduced hen: Same as above but reduced instead


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I am sure a lot here already know this but for those who don't I thought it was a handy tip for anyone putting Brown into their breed, I am doing it at the moment with my thief pouters and am about half way there.


what are you trying to breed? you know I have browns in my loft... thought I gave you some as well...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

nzpouter said:


> what are you trying to breed? you know I have browns in my loft... thought I gave you some as well...


No, Never got any from you, Got one cockbird from Owen that threw a Brown hen so that would have come from you originally, the hen I threw was way below par in standard so I am building it back up using some of my nicer cockbirds. She has thrown me a mealey cock so he is paired to a blue so I can get brown hens and blue cocks carrying brown, They should be looking a lot better and then I can put them back to each other to get pure Brown cocks, Or if they are still not looking right I can do the above all over again

On a side note, I did get a half modena, half thief from Colin and have put that to a thief and got a hen, she is on eggs now so their offspring will be 1/8, It may take a while to get it back but its just a fun project for me, Probably won't ever put them in the show.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Any kind of sex-linking makes me happy. I have a few pairs of ash-red birds where the cockbird carries blue. I always know the blues are hens. And the reds with flecks are males, but then there's the possibility of pure ash-red males but oh well!
> 
> Any pairings dealing with recessive genes that can be sex-linked can also be "partially sexlinked". Things like almond, which ARE sex-linked if it's an almond hen with a non almond cockbird....notice it doesn't work the other way because almond is dominant and thus a cockbird cannot carry it without showing it.
> 
> ...


Nice one, I knew you would have some more Becky!

Just one thing, I consider an almond hen to non almond cock as a fully sex linked mating as all cocks are almond and all hens are non almond, I get what you mean though that it does not work in reverse, It's the same as when you have a blue hen with a red cock carrying blue in a way, It does not work in reverse as you get a mixture in both sexes.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> No, Never got any from you, Got one cockbird from Owen that threw a Brown hen so that would have come from you originally, the hen I threw was way below par in standard so I am building it back up using some of my nicer cockbirds.
> 
> On a side note, I did get a half modena, half thief from Colin and have put that to a thief and got a hen, she is on eggs now so their offspring will be 1/8, It may take a while to get it back but its just a fun project for me, Probably won't ever put them in the show.


Must be bred out of the pied cockbird he borrowed off me a few years back. I bred 3 brown cheq so far this year, if you want 1 we can swap it with an almond if you breed a spare.

What colour is the modena x? End of this seson I'll pair up a thief and an owl cross to breed opal, wouldn't take long to get it up to show standard, maybe 4-5 generations if i can be bothered.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

nzpouter said:


> Must be bred out of the pied cockbird he borrowed off me a few years back. I bred 3 brown cheq so far this year, if you want 1 we can swap it with an almond if you breed a spare.
> 
> What colour is the modena x? End of this seson I'll pair up a thief and an owl cross to breed opal, wouldn't take long to get it up to show standard, maybe 4-5 generations if i can be bothered.


Yeah I think it did come from that pied cock. I got some nice thiefs off a blue of yours this year. 

Opal sounds like a good idea, I would like to put dilute in at some stage.

The modena is a black, It came from a hen you gave us that we bred from and then gave to colin, He paired it to a blue thief of yours and got the halfbred which I stole to breed my quarter bred hen. I am interested to see how her young turn out as they will be F3, I am hoping my F6's look like thiefs.

I only have 3 almonds at the moment but I do have four eggs down from a red bar almond cock to a red bar hen, They will be boring looking almonds but they are nice big thiefs so should be good in type. I would be keen on a swap so will let you know when I got some spare.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

sweet, sing out when you're ready.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Now this would apply the same obviously for a blue cock carrying brown paired to a blue hen, You would not get brown cocks therefore any browns you could count on being hens.


You must not be talking about a blue bar cock and a blue bar hen, I was always under the impression that all you could ever get was blue bar. Is there some thing else To look for? Keeping in mind all I do is homers.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah a pure blue cockbird with a blue hen will give you nothing but blues unless a mutation randomly pops up. But blue cockbirds carrying brown will look just like a pure blue bird.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yeah a pure blue cockbird with a blue hen will give you nothing but blues unless a mutation randomly pops up. But blue cockbirds carrying brown will look just like a pure blue bird.


I don't understand, carring brown will look pure. How do you tell if they carry brown?
Dave


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

Crazy Pete said:


> I don't understand, carring brown will look pure. How do you tell if they carry brown?
> Dave


blue cockbird carrying brown will look just like a normal blue... the only way to tell is by breeding... half his daughter will be brown.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Crazy Pete said:


> Now this would apply the same obviously for a blue cock carrying brown paired to a blue hen, You would not get brown cocks therefore any browns you could count on being hens.
> 
> 
> You must not be talking about a blue bar cock and a blue bar hen, I was always under the impression that all you could ever get was blue bar. Is there some thing else To look for? Keeping in mind all I do is homers.
> Dave


No, Im talking about a blue cock carrying brown paired to a blue hen, You would not get brown cocks therefore any browns you could count on being hens. 

This means the pair is partially sex linked, You will not know if your blues are hens or cocks but you will know that your browns are hens

Also Dave, Any cockbird bred from a brown hen will cary Brown, So although is not visible in the bird you can be certain by tracing back its bloodlines to find out what it carries.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Dave, I shoud also mention that the rule you were told that a blue bar to a blue bar will only throw blue bars is relatively true when it comes to racing, As Blue and Bar are the most recessive of the *common* colours and patterns it means you are unlikely to produce anything but what they are, You can however throw brown bars, Blue bars, Brown Barless and Blue barless off that pairing if they carry it hidden.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Whereas ash-red cockbirds split for blue/brown show flecking, unfortunately it doesn't work the same for blue cockbirds carrying brown. They won't show flecking or anything. They'll look like any other blue pigeon. So until you breed them you won't know. If you ever pop out a brown bird from the pair then you'll know he's carrying it  Same thing with regular colored cockbirds carrying dilute. You wouldn't know until they have dilute babies.

Unless of course you have a trustworthy pedigree that gives you clues as to what the birds may have hidden.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have heard that a blue cock carrying brown can be identified if the Almond modifier is added. I have not seen this myself and wonder if maybe it was just a blue T pattern Almond with Kite bronze and the Kite was mistook for Brown? I have a pairing at the moment which will confirm if this theory is true, Blue Almond cock with a Brown hen. No kite involved so I will see if the brown shows through in the Almond cocks or not


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

I've seen a few, on german beauty actually, some of the best breaks in almond even more when there's spread involved.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Nice, I might add spread into the mix too.

Andrew do you have any birds out there that are or carry dilute that might cross well with a thief pouter? We have mananged to breed from F1 black frillbacks and have some F1's that are het rec red. Also we have an f3 Kite, F3 White andf F3 that is het rec red. Should be some cool coloured frillbacks around in the next 5 years or so. The F3's are already really curly


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

no sorry... actually, not sure... I got a bird from johnny, he said is an almond, I have my doubt need to do a test mating with her.

Great job with the frillbacks, you know Colin actually have that toy stencil cross I offered you last year


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

nzpouter said:


> no sorry... actually, not sure... I got a bird from johnny, he said is an almond, I have my doubt need to do a test mating with her.
> 
> Great job with the frillbacks, you know Colin actually have that toy stencil cross I offered you last year


Yeah we have been tempted..... Might have enough birds at the moment, If its still there in a year or two I may consider it.

I might try find a dilute modena to cross in for dilute, it does not seem to take too long to get it back looking like a thief.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

show racers, better flow of the head/ beak and closer shape to a thief. I used them to breed andalusian into the thieves.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I had an ASR hen that was yellow damnit, I bred her to a racer and got a cock carrying dilute, I could use him I suppose, Wish I didn't get rid of that hen now.


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

check with noel smith, he might have a spare.


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