# My "loft" lol



## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I need to know, my loft is 4×8, how many pigeons do you guys think it will hold? I'm hoping it will hold more than 3, because when I move November in after its reno (almost done!!), I'm going to try to get him a mate. Thats 2 pigeons, and their squabs (of which I'll let them have two, and remove later eggs (though I'll probably "accidentally" leave an extra egg there and tell my mom I didn't notice it. hehehehehe)
I'll post pics, because I really wanna know what you guys think of it. Took me a week to build with my moms friend, and I'm really pretty proud of it (although my neighbors hate me for having pigeons)!


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

2 square foot for each bird. 16 birds in a 4x8


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

YUP....16 
Can't wait to see pictures.....I know how you feel, I have no building experience (or help because my kids think I'm crazy to have pigeons), and I built my flight cages. It's a great feeling of accomplishment! ....and I don't care WHAT they think


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> 2 square foot for each bird. 16 birds in a 4x8


hey got a question you said 2ft per bird, 4 x 8 = 16 birds, so my shed is 8 x 10 (not including flight) so mine will hold 40 birds??? is that correct, just asking because someone told me i will have to many with 20..


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

8x10??? just 1 section? Seems kinda large trying to catch your birds.
Don't forget Nest boxes and perches.
Young Birds and Old birds
Prison birds[Breeders] 
Think about haveing 3 sections
But you will LEARN.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I was told you don't count the flight pen or aviery. I think it was you sky tx that told me that. So your right


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes shadybug--
You have a Loft--the Aviery is a cage [ to me ].
The birds do not live in the aviery


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

i didn't count the aviary, that to is 8 x 10 and yes i have a few older 2010 & 2009 birds. i have had pigeons before and had older with younger and had no problems.. my question was is that 40 correct tho? i have 17 now and 3 eggs to hatch in 2 weeks..


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

horseart4u---go ahead put 40-60-80 birds in it --then tell us if you had problems with Pairs--young birds with old birds-sicknesses?--fighting over nests?
How many perches are you going to have?
How many Pairs?
How many nest boxes?
Your number of birds will DOUBLE ever 4-6 months.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

sky tx said:


> horseart4u---go ahead put 40-60-80 birds in it --then tell us if you had problems with Pairs--young birds with old birds-sicknesses?--fighting over nests?
> How many perches are you going to have?
> How many Pairs?
> How many nest boxes?
> Your number of birds will DOUBLE ever 4-6 months.


you are not listening to what i am saying or asking......i am not going to have 40, 60, 80 birds i am NOT STUPID..like some people on here....i have 17 birds...right now 4 paired with 3 eggs to hatch giving me 20 soon...i was just asking the size to how many.....go pick on on some newbie who is stupid to have 4 pair in a small a$$ cage and expect to get eggs from all of them...all the time..or someone who builds a LOFT from crap material after he was told not too and still put his birds in it...sky-tx you make me laugh sometimes but sometimes you can be a pain in the A$$.....


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

ohhhhhh, lol.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

sky tx is right, unless you can separate them or use fake eggs you will have more than your loft will hold on no time, but im sure you know that, and with the floor you have and the dampness you will have sick birds. I'm not trying to pi## you off but its true. I know, I had 2 rounds of sickness in the last 6 months. Its not cheep when they get sick. It was my fault, I brought birds in from 3 different lofts and they were all sick. There all good now. I took a lot of work keeping the loft clean, quarentine them in seperate pens, medicating every day and the expense of testing the droppings and meds.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

He said he had pigeons before--both young and old and no problems.
BUT he did not say---how many birds or what size loft he had them in.
Maybe he needs to share some info with us.
It may be info us older flyers need to know and pass on to younger flyers.
But he is in Florida--his birds have NEVER seen freezing weather.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

horseart4u said:


> you are not listening to what i am saying or asking......i am not going to have 40, 60, 80 birds i am NOT STUPID..like some people on here....i have 17 birds...right now 4 paired with 3 eggs to hatch giving me 20 soon...i was just asking the size to how many.....go pick on on some newbie who is stupid to have 4 pair in a small a$$ cage and expect to get eggs from all of them...all the time..or someone who builds a LOFT from crap material after he was told not too and still put his birds in it...sky-tx you make me laugh sometimes but sometimes you can be a pain in the A$$.....


 I like your spunk , yes 40 birds in your loft should be just fine just keep it clean and your birds well fed , even pairs helps alot too and always quarentene new birds before adding them too the flock. Birds will always pick on each other too wether you have 20 or 200 in a coop but when you have less space theres lots more problems and scalping of youngbirds on the floor, because they all are trying to claim a territory/space of their own .If people think 40 birds in your loft will be to many then Im sure they cringe everytime they come across a video like this one .lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s27CNe5Y0tI&feature=player_embedded


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

According to the formula that they have come up with, at 2 square feet of floor space per bird, then yes, you could have 40 birds in an 8X10 loft. But that is crowded. Not a lot of space for them to move around in without bumping into another bird. You will have more fights and more stress with that many birds in that space than you would with half as many birds. Fewer birds= healthier and happier birds. Also a lot harder to keep up with switching the eggs out for fake. You miss more that way, and have more Oops babies. You will end up with 60 in that space in no time. Fewer is better.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

sky tx said:


> He said he had pigeons before--both young and old and no problems.
> BUT he did not say---how many birds or what size loft he had them in.
> Maybe he needs to share some info with us.
> It may be info us older flyers need to know and pass on to younger flyers.
> But he is in Florida--his birds have NEVER seen freezing weather.


first off i am NOT A HE do you need glasses??? second if you have read any of my threads i had pigeons when i was in jr. high and high school. homers & indian fantails in a homemade loft with chicken wire in the city of wilmington delaware....i had birds for 5 year untill we moved and i couldn't take them with me..the loft was 6 x 10 with a 4ft x 10ft x 8 ft flight, 30 birds old and young mixed homers & fantails...and i DO know what snow and ice looks like... i have had my share of bad winters..did i have sick birds yes, eveyone does and you can't say they haven't or they never do... god knows i don't want any of mine sick..and yes i have fake eggs and plenty of them..


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

I guess I need glasses--or missed your picture somewhere.
Horseart--I apologize-I could not tell by your {VIOCE} typing if you were Male or female.
I'd bet your a hot looking BABE that I'd like to take home.

SORRY--I've been married to the same hot CHICK for 54 years.


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> According to the formula that they have come up with, at 2 square feet of floor space per bird, then yes, you could have 40 birds in an 8X10 loft. But that is crowded. Not a lot of space for them to move around in without bumping into another bird. You will have more fights and more stress with that many birds in that space than you would with half as many birds. Fewer birds= healthier and happier birds. Also a lot harder to keep up with switching the eggs out for fake. You miss more that way, and have more Oops babies. You will end up with 60 in that space in no time. Fewer is better.


I am wondering who made up this formula, sorta like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop, the world may never know?


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

sky tx said:


> I guess I need glasses--or missed your picture somewhere.
> Horseart--I apologize-I could not tell by your {VIOCE} typing if you were Male or female.
> I'd bet your a hot looking BABE that I'd like to take home.
> 
> SORRY--I've been married to the same hot CHICK for 54 years.


well sky-tx my signature has mine & my daughters name in it  DONNA & ANGELINA..hey look its good to give people advice, some take it well some don't..i take it either way..yes i can get P.O'd sometimes as does anyone..but look us NATIVES have to stick together


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

Jay nailed it. Good answer.

It's better to have fewer number birds than your space allows for... You know them better- their health, fitness, etc. Easier to keep track of droppings, keep loft clean, make sure they're eating and drinking adequately. Fewer is better.

It's better to develop another space, or room for the breeding. As your YB's get older, the cocks will posture and fight. Hens will try to lay eggs in the corners, on the floor, on their perches... it's a mess. You need to think how you will separate cocks and hens (given your available space) if needed. They'll be happier in the long run.

Then, you can breed if you want to on your own terms- the birds you think will being you the best results.

Good luck!

cbx


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Wingsonfire said:


> I am wondering who made up this formula, sorta like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop, the world may never know?


I wonder about this also. And I also wonder why people don't take into consideration the height of the loft when figuring out capacity. Forty birds in an eighty square foot loft is an awful lot if they all have to sit on the floor. I have a fifty-six square foot loft with twenty-two birds in it. With the exception of newly fledged young birds, there are *never *any birds on the floor except at feeding time. They are roosting on perches or in nest boxes that are between four and seven layers high going up to the seven foot height of my loft.

My mentor keeps rollers, and his breeder loft may have as many as 200 birds in it at any one time. I don't know for sure, but it appears that it is around ninety-six square feet (8' x 12'). It is between seven feet and nine feet tall, with nest boxes going up to the ceiling on the nine foot wall (he uses a step ladder to access the upper nest boxes). He has been keeping pigeons for over fifty years, and has never had any problems with the "crowding" situation. His birds are healthy, and they are great (and winning!) performers.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

Wingsonfire said:


> I am wondering who made up this formula, sorta like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop, the world may never know?


lol, good one. lol


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

cbx1013 said:


> Jay nailed it. Good answer.
> 
> It's better to have fewer number birds than your space allows for... You know them better- their health, fitness, etc. Easier to keep track of droppings, keep loft clean, make sure they're eating and drinking adequately. Fewer is better.
> 
> ...


Im tired of the natives being grumpy!


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

oops, I quoted the wrong one.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

sky tx said:


> I guess I need glasses--or missed your picture somewhere.
> Horseart--I apologize-I could not tell by your {VIOCE} typing if you were Male or female.
> I'd bet your a hot looking BABE that I'd like to take home.
> 
> SORRY--I've been married to the same hot CHICK for 54 years.


Your wife must be a saint!


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Im tired of the natives being grumpy!


its the firewater and peyote  was'te kola acaji tokeca apetu .


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

if the flight cage doesnt count...then my loft is only 4×4  and I made a mistake in my original post too, so all in all, the walled part is 4×4 and the flight cage is 4×8...  btw, thanks for answers, I know now how many squabs/friends November can have, and I'll post pics right after the new weatherproof paint is on


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

òh...also, another question, people name their lofts, is their a particular reason? Is it only for show~people and racers? Should I name my loft....?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

*Pictures!!*



Uploaded with ImageShack.us







Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

My doors are kinda small, to help prevent pijes escaping, as I wasn't able to put double doors. My loft is lop sided, but still, as you might see by his face in the next pictures, he really likes it!  (i made that shirt, and proudly walk on the street now with it on)


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Nice pictures and I'm sure your birds won't mind that it is a bit lop sided, so wouldn't worry about that. The dirt floor in the aviary, and the chicken wire on the aviary make it unsafe for them though. Raccoons can tear right through the chicken wire, and mice and rats can walk right through. Mice will make them very sick, and snakes, rats and raccoons will kill them. Rats will dig underneath and come up inside. If the loft floor is also dirt, that's even worse. Can you cover the chicken wire with hardware cloth, and put something down so that they cannot dig in?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Hmmmm...thanks for the pointers, I'll see if I can fix it!  Also, during the night, I put November in the inside part, with a wooden floor, and bring all the food inside (and rake the ground). Do you still think that raccoons and mice ect. will still be interested (cuz they're nocturnal and all..)?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Feeding her outside will attract rodents. And believe me, they are not always nocturnal. It is a good idea to lock her up inside at night, but the chicken wire should still be covered, and I would still put something down to keep things out of the aviary. Snakes can also get in through those holes.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Hmmmm...thanks for the pointers, I'll see if I can fix it!  Also, during the night, I put November in the inside part, with a wooden floor, and bring all the food inside (and rake the ground). Do you still think that raccoons and mice ect. will still be interested (cuz they're nocturnal and all..)?


There are diurnal predators like cats and hawks who can get their feet/paws through and snag a bird with just chicken wire. You need hardware cloth for the aviary, or it will not be safe. As for the dirt floor in the aviary, it seems like it would get hard to clean if nothing else. I've always felt that dirt floors in long-term animal enclosures in general is usually an invitation for disease. 

Mice/rats/snakes/pests can dig, so they can get through the dirt floor in the aviary--even if the wire were impenetrable they could come in there that way. They will always be interested in your loft, because they will always be hungry. 
Mice/rats can get in during the day when the doors between loft and aviary are open if they want to. They aren't stupid--especially rats can figure out timing. We've had mice get into our house with very small windows of the door being left open. They simply moved from the ledge near the driveway through the door when they got a chance. (The poor cat guarded the wall 24/7 for a week straight keeping them from moving further.) Double check that the loft with the covered floor is very tight especially around the ground. (No gaps between doors and doorframes, etc.) Don't forget that most of these critters can climb.

You can also help keep the pests away with proper food control. No extra food left out where critters can get into it and no food containers that they can climb/chew into. Bringing the food inside like you said is a great help as well. 

Other than that I think it looks really nice. Do you have inside pics?  Your pigeon is gorgeous!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Feeding her outside will attract rodents. And believe me, they are not always nocturnal. It is a good idea to lock her up inside at night, but the chicken wire should still be covered, and I would still put something down to keep things out of the aviary. Snakes can also get in through those holes.


How did I not see this until after I posted? lol. Jay, you said everything I wanted to much more efficiently. XD


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

The Original poster is in Toronto- so, I am wondering if she has to worry about snakes. I know here in Washington (state, not DC..) - also northern climate regardless, but other coast- I have only ever seen one snake in 23 years, so am not worried about them being predatory towards my pigeons or chickens. But, it always does kinda come down to the same thing- safety from predators, most of which can get through a hole the size of a quarter-and most of whom can dig under, no matter what kind live in your climate. She seems to be devoted to her bird(s?) so I imagine daytime predators would have to get past her to get to November! If the loft is predator proof, and the birds are locked up tight at night, I bet it would be ok. If it were me, I would toss some plywood down on the aviary to keep bad dudes from digging in, and scrape it down to keep it clean. Or whatever- lets face it- pigeons live in the wild, and manage to stay alive- not as well as captive ones....Anyway, yeah, smaller holes in wire would be good for safety. My loft is like a fortress, my aviary as well, and I still close off the loft from the aviary for safety every night, because in my experience with chickens, the aviary/run is always the easiest place for the vermin to get in. Your dirt floor if kept clean will probably be fine too- I know, I am all over the place tonight- I guess it boils down to "what is the ideal" and "what will work" and "what are the risks associated with falling short of the ideal"- combine all that with the fact that this is a worldwide forum, and all the differing climates and such create different problems, and there are too many variables to have a straight answer! My chickens have a dirt "floor" run, with a deep trench that has the hardware cloth secured in concrete. No vermin have ever gotten in, but it gets muddy in the winter, and I have to throw straw,leaves, sand- and whatever else I have laying around in there to keep it fresh, and not swampy.

Your T-Shirt is awesome. Glad you are enjoying the hobby. Pigeons are awesome little dudes. 

As for sq footage per bird- esp vs cubic feet per bird- I did see something here on PT that addressed the cubic ft of air space as a need, but I don't remember. Myself, I use that 2 sq ft per bird, and yes that would mean 40 birds in and 8x10- but I only use it as part of the equation, and also factor in room to bask in the aviary, 1 1/2 perches per bird, etc. The overall outward appearance of happiness of my birds is the #1 criteria. Everything else is a guide to help you reach a place where you have happy, healthy birds. Fewer birds in more space means cleaner everything, and happier birds with less stress over where am I gonna sit, and "Uh Oh, I want to go outside, but that big mean cockbird is standing in the doorway...." LOL- I have gone on faaaaaar too long- must need sleep.


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

There would only be gardner snakes around and maybe even water snakes... Thats about it, but there would be lots of raccoons around which might try and get in..


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> òh...also, another question, people name their lofts, is their a particular reason? Is it only for show~people and racers? Should I name my loft....?


We name our lofts for any number of reasons. I named mine Elm Street Lofts, because it is on (wait for it)...Elm Street. Another choice was Zachabbey Loft, named after my two kids, Zachary and Abbey. I think that a name helps personalize a loft, and makes it seem a bit more "official" than just some space that you can keep pigeons in. Maybe the pigeons will have a greater sense of self-worth because they live in Elm Street Lofts instead of in a converted playhouse in my backyard.


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

I think the name is also a marketing thing for the big boys/girls in racing; makes their birds identifiable- esp when they get the name of the loft on the bands for their birds. But I am newb-aroo, so that is just a guess. I named mine the "Funkadelic Pigeon Experience" after catching flack from folks that didn't approve of some of my less than perfect building techniques- and because it is supposed to be Fun, not a big pain in the rump roast chore. My loft is a reflection of my values- comfort and safety of the birds is #1, building it and taking care of them is my refuge from the rest of my life and it's challenges. So, in that way, it is a funkadelic experience for me- all time stands still when I am with my birds. It is bliss.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Allright  I'll try to get more of this hardware cloth stuff... I don't really have any inside pics yet, but I'll take some! My friend wants me to name my loft after Scourge somehow, so I'll see if I can incorporate her name into some nice sounding name instead of "Scourge lofts" (makes it sound like my pigeons are/will be diseased)! 
(Libis) Thanks about November's beauty lol


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Allright  I'll try to get more of this hardware cloth stuff... I don't really have any inside pics yet, but I'll take some! My friend wants me to name my loft after Scourge somehow, so I'll see if I can incorporate her name into some nice sounding name instead of "Scourge lofts" (makes it sound like my pigeons are/will be diseased)!
> (Libis) Thanks about November's beauty lol


LOL on the "diseased bird loft"

Hardware cloth comes in many sizes and strengths. The strength is indicated by what gauge the wire is- I can never remember what the numbers mean on the gauge size, but I think I went with 19 gauge, and it was 1/2" size squares. Oh- and the rolls vary in width too- some are 2ft wide, 3ft wide, 4 ft wide, depending on what you are doing. It is a good opportunity to use applied mathematics to problem solve. 

It is kinda spendy-but prices are a lot higher some places than at others, so it pays to shop around. It was a big ticket item on my loft because of wanting lots of windows for sunshine and ventilation. Recently some pigeon friends suggested to me that I use plywood around the bottom 1/3 or so of the new aviary I am adding, and then using the hardware cloth up top. If you have leftover plywood from the loft build- or whatever, this could be a good way to go.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

NayNay said:


> LOL on the "diseased bird loft"
> 
> Hardware cloth comes in many sizes and strengths. The strength is indicated by what gauge the wire is- I can never remember what the numbers mean on the gauge size, but I think I went with 19 gauge, and it was 1/2" size squares. Oh- and the rolls vary in width too- some are 2ft wide, 3ft wide, 4 ft wide, depending on what you are doing. It is a good opportunity to use applied mathematics to problem solve.
> 
> It is kinda spendy-but prices are a lot higher some places than at others, so it pays to shop around. It was a big ticket item on my loft because of wanting lots of windows for sunshine and ventilation. Recently some pigeon friends suggested to me that I use plywood around the bottom 1/3 or so of the new aviary I am adding, and then using the hardware cloth up top. If you have leftover plywood from the loft build- or whatever, this could be a good way to go.


Keep in mind that the best price on hardware cloth isn't always the longest roll. At both Home Depot and Lowes, it is cheaper per square foot to buy hardware cloth in ten foot lengths than it is to buy twenty-five foot lengths. If you don't need the continuous length or width, shop by price per square foot. Usually the best deal is two foot wide by ten foot long. Bring a calculator with you and figure the cost per square ffot yourself. It can change from day to day.

The formula:

length times width = square feet

price divided by square feet = cost per square foot


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

ptras said:


> Keep in mind that the best price on hardware cloth isn't always the longest roll. At both Home Depot and Lowes, it is cheaper per square foot to buy hardware cloth in ten foot lengths than it is to buy twenty-five foot lengths. If you don't need the continuous length or width, shop by price per square foot. Usually the best deal is two foot wide by ten foot long. Bring a calculator with you and figure the cost per square ffot yourself. It can change from day to day.
> 
> The formula:
> 
> ...


Good point- I did not realize the 10 ft ones were a better deal. Never bothered doing the math, because I assumed that I would get a better deal on the larger amount. I found Ace hardware had the best price when I bought my big roll- it was nearly half the price of what the big box stares were charging. But the prices really do fluctuate on that stuff.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I buy all my stuff from home depot anyway, so Tomorrow when I get more loft stuff, I will also get that stuff


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

NayNay said:


> Good point- I did not realize the 10 ft ones were a better deal. Never bothered doing the math, because I assumed that I would get a better deal on the larger amount. I found Ace hardware had the best price when I bought my big roll- it was nearly half the price of what the big box stares were charging. But the prices really do fluctuate on that stuff.


What I found out is that a 10' roll is about 1/3 the price of a 25' roll. So basically, you can get three rolls (30') for the price of 25' on a larger roll. I was also surprised to find that the narrower rolls (2') are less expensive per square foot than the wider rolls. Unless you *need *the wider widths, it is better to buy the 2' width. That also keeps you from having to handle the wider fabric, which can be a real pain.

Speaking of pain - make sure you wear gloves when you cut it! I learned the hard way, and still have scars on the back of my hands that won't tan in the summer!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

NayNay said:


> The Original poster is in Toronto- so, I am wondering if she has to worry about snakes. I know here in Washington (state, not DC..) - also northern climate regardless, but other coast- I have only ever seen one snake in 23 years, so am not worried about them being predatory towards my pigeons or chickens. But, it always does kinda come down to the same thing- safety from predators, most of which can get through a hole the size of a quarter-and most of whom can dig under, no matter what kind live in your climate.


Nebraska isn't exactly warm lol. It was 30 below zero (F) in March one day and the rest of that week was 15 to 20 below (I remember because I crashed my car that day) and we still have bull snakes, hognosed snakes, rattlers (more out northwest), garters, etc. My cousins who live in the north central part of the state periodically have issues with snakes wanting the chicken eggs. South Dakota and other fairly northern states also have rattlers etc. Last summer we found the coolest little two-headed garter snake in our yard, too.  Little guy went to live with a herpetologist who works for the university and adores his snakes. 

also:
http://www.natureconservancy.ca/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7423&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=on_ncc_


Anyway, I was just trying to say exactly what you do here--you don't want any quarter-size holes in any outdoor prey animal enclosure. 

Even in livestock/zoo/misc large animal enclosures you want to avoid them, though it is impossible to keep all of the rats and mice (and sometimes bats/swallows/wasps/etc) out of a full-sized barn that allows the livestock good access to the outdoors. Even then, though, federal (US) law dictates that zoos etc. should not have any pests in their barns ever (which is a completely unrealistic law with large mammal barns--but the concern for disease issues behind the law is a nice thought.) 

Anyway, with the smallness of a pigeon loft, one can much better prevent the pests from entering than in a large mammal barn. So I figure that it's worth it to study the ideal, and then do whatever the best is that one can.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ive never seen a live snake that wasnt in a zoo or a pet, and the only dead one I saw was on Toronto Island!


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