# Vaccination Questions



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I would like to start a thread (and I am, lol) about vaccinating pigeons. I have always had a vet tech friend to help and she moved away last year so I am on my own. I am about to do vaccinations again and though I don't mind giving the shots, it makes me nervous reading about all the things that could go wrong. I have done a few myself but mostly held the birds while she did it. She directed the needle towards the body, but some say to do it towards the head. Giving dogs or cats injections seems so much easier, as I am cautious with the birds since they seem so much more fragile to me. 

So would some of you mind giving me your own experiences and thoughts? How you personally hold the bird, which angle you put the needle in, any problems that can be avoided if you know ahead of time about them, how you can tell the needle is in the right place and not under the skin etc., any info that might come in handy for me or any other people attempting this. 

I have the three vaccines ready for each bird. I have Salmonella Typhimurium Bacterin(Sal Bac), Avian Paramyxovirus Vaccine (MBL PMV1), an dPigeon Pox Vaccine (MBL PP). I also have worming tablets that are due to be given. Should I do them all at once when I have the bird caught? Or is it better to do them over a period of time? I can't remember what we did before. It was pretty stressful on them and me! I just want it to be easy for them especially and not stress them out too much; many of my pijies are NOT fond of being caught and handled! Any suggestions, ideas, thoughts, or stories are welcome and appreciated. Thanks!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

MJ, we have never done this but plan to. I recently did some searches here on the forum and there are several really informative ones about the vaccinations. Based on what I remember, always insert the needle towards the body - not the neck.

In one of the threads I found, which was kinda old, some lady mentioned watching a video but I could never find anything but maybe someone on here will know if there is such a thing.


I'll also add that while I am pretty fearless with anything I have to do for our birds, I do feel a bit squeamish about giving these particular shots. I have given lots in the past but usually in the chest area.


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

MJ, 
thank you so very much for posting this.

I'll have my loft up and ready by spring. I have more pigeons now, and might get more in the future (hard to say, but who knows). 

Mine are pets, but I would think that having more than one now, that shots would need to start being gave. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Is there a certain time of year that shots need or should be gave?
Is it done the same way or similar to how chickens are gave shots?
I figured my vet can probably help me out, but it is always good to know.

Sorry for the questions. Beautiful was gave shots before I got him, and so have many of the others (if not all). I haven't had to worry about shots yet, so haven't really read up on it.

-Hilly


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I've vaccinated my pigeons for the last five years, so I've done several hundred injections by now. I started off by following the manufacturer's instructions: having someone hold the birds for me. That was okay but it created some difficulty because (a) I had to collar a less-than-willing family member into spending several hours helping me and (b) I found that their fingers were often in my way. Last year a long-time breeder showed me a better way to vaccinate and I'll try to explain. The best part for me is that you can do it solo. I did all rounds of shots this way this year and didn't have any problems. As a bonus, I actually finished faster than I had with a helper.

So here goes: You hold the bird in your left hand (if you're right handed; reverse the instructions if you're a lefty) and tuck it firmly against you. While holding its feet firmly in your other fingers, use your left thumb and forefinger to gently tilt the pigeon's head forward so that its lower neck is exposed. This creates a nice pocket at the base of the neck. I always vaccinate toward the body and go in at an angle so the needle is in the pocket, under the skin. I first spray the vaccination site with alcohol I keep in a spray bottle. This disinfects and wets the feathers so I can see the skin and exactly what I'm doing. I did both full rounds (90 pigeons each time) and all the boosters this way. 

In all the pigeons I've vaccinated I only had one bad reaction a couple years ago and that bird recovered. It was a tiny little Vienna Medium-faced Tumbler. they have skinny necks with very tight skin. I hit something I shouldn't have (a nerve?) and he staggered around for a few minutes but quickly recovered. I haven't had any problems with the new method. I think it's better because you can be sure you are down at the base of the neck, not up higher. The instructions tell you to vaccinate at shoulder level. 

On syringes: Initially I loaded up a single syringe/needle for each bird. But it took forever just to load up the syringes and all that stabbing of the vaccine bottle with needles caused the rubber top to crumble. I was afraid the crumbles would end up in the syringes, because the needles are very big (20 gauge). So this year I did what the pigeon club guys do, which is to load up each syringe with enough vaccine for several birds. One needle works for three or four times before it gets dull. I was uneasy about sharing needles between birds, but didn't have any problems. And it was a lot faster that way.


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## indianbird (Oct 6, 2007)

can we vaccinated under the wing just like we do on chicken?


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Maryjane. You & some of the other members are way, way braver than I am. I hold the bird belly up while my vet gave the vaccines. She however did them in a pocket of skin between the leg and the groin area. We did this for both the Paratyphoid and PMV vaccines. (you could actually see the white PMV vx going in under the skin). Honestly, not one bird flinched. Also, she was shocked at the size needle the mfgr called for...way larger than necessary for a small bird. I forget the size she used, but it was much smaller. I think the PMV vx required a bit bigger syringe because it is thicker.

To be safe and since it was the first vaccines for my birds (& because they are not 100% healthy to begin with) we chose to do the paratyphoid & PMV at diff times. We did the PMV 1st, because I believe it is much less stressful on them. We gave the paratyphoid 4 wks after the last PMV one. I absolutely did not enjoy the catching to vaccinate (4 times this year = boosters for each were given) but I wanted to be extra cautious since I didn't know how they would react to the vaccines.

Good luck...


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I've heard of people doing it in the groin area as you described, Rockie. My vet said you could do it in the skin of the wing, but I don't know anyone who does. I'm sure you could use a smaller needle for Sal-Bac because it's thin, but the PMV is the consistency of white glue and you need the big needle to push it through. As nearly as I can tell the pigeon supplies only sell 20 guage needles. 

I don't think there's a set time of year you must vaccinate, but the manufacturers recommend vaccinating before breeding season and that all youngsters be vaccinated at least 2 or 3 weeks prior to the race or show season (which are two different things). I start in the summer so that that youngsters are fully vaccinated before our first show, in October. That way everyone is also ready for breeding season, which here in CA starts in January/February. If you live in a pox-prone area you would want to vaccinate for it before warm weather when mosquitoes become active.


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

OK, a few more questions...sorry.

If you have pet pigeons, that are use to being handled. Do you think giving the shots will make them mad, or make them not trust ya? Or is this something they will forget about and move on?

How do you find out if you are in a pox-prone area?
-Hilly


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hillybean said:


> OK, a few more questions...sorry.
> 
> If you have pet pigeons, that are use to being handled. Do you think giving the shots will make them mad, or make them not trust ya? Or is this something they will forget about and move on?
> 
> ...


I was worried about that, too, because although we have _lots _of pigeons, quite a few are friendly and I consider them pets. They did not hold it against me. Amazingly, most of them didn't even flinch. It will probably be harder for you to stab your babies with a needle than for them. Personally, I have to focus on that little patch of skin and making sure I get the vaccine under the skin and in the proper location. I can't look at their faces or think about who they are. 

The first time we did vaccinations I was fine throughout the process but when I came back in the house my legs felt wobbly!  Kind of ironic, considering my older son was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes when he was 12 and I did his insulin injections until he was ready to do them himself. And it never made me the slightest bit squeamish. But it's actually easier on a human because they know what's going on. And an insulin needle is tiny, especially compared to the giant needles we use for vaccinating pigeons.

One of my tamest pigeons is Lucy, a Nun. She got very, very sick when she was two months old. She had some mysterious infection and had to have injections of Ticarcillin several times a day. They were much easier shots to give because I got to use a little insulin syringe and they went in her breast muscle, not subcutaneously like the vaccines. But she shuddered and acted like she was dying every time I gave her a shot! I dreaded them and I was sure she would hate me forever after that, but she didn't. Instead, we bonded while she was in the house and to this day (two years later) she comes when I call her name. So don't worry; I'm sure your pigeons won't hold it against you.


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

Thank you Birdmom for answering my question. 
I am so glad to know that they shouldn't hold it against me.

-Hilly


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

About pox...I've heard some fanciers say that it's a much bigger problem in the South than here in Northern California. But I have heard of cases here, so probably we should do that one, too. However, and I'm kind of ashamed to admit it, I haven't vaccinated mine for pox. You have to vaccinate all of them at the same time. It seems like I always have an "oops" baby or someone still in the nest at the time I need to vaccinate, so I just haven't done it. But this coming year I plan to be more disciplined and make sure I do the pox vaccine, too. It's easier than the others in that you just pluck a feather or two and brush it on. No needles. As to whether or not pox is a problem in your area, try asking local fanciers if you can. But like everything else, it's probably "better safe than sorry."


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Okay, we're gonna start the New Year off right here and I'm going out there to do these shots TODAY. I am posting this so I don't chicken out and keep putting it off.  I have the vaccines getting to room temp right now and the rubbing alcohol ready. I am still unsure whether to give the PMV and Paratyphoid (for pox) injections at the same time, or wait to do one in a few weeks. It was mentioned that one needle is only good for four or five injections; they sent me only two needles from Foy's, with the vaccines. So I need to get more needles? I have several left over from when the puppies were born (they give us meds to inject if they're not breathing at birth). I'll go round those up. I wish it was over but hey, it can't be that bad. . .right?  Wish me luck.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I get needles at tractor supply co. they have the 1/2" 20 gauge needles which work fine. they are very cheap! I fill syringes with enough vaccine to do several birds, and I fill all the syringes at once when I open the bottle, so all the vaccine gets removed from the bottle at one sitting. I hope this makes sense...I pierce the little rubber stopper with a single needle, then leave that needle in the bottle till I'm done, I just swap out the syringe bodies as I'm filling them and fit a clean needle on each one when it's full. I do it like Rockie does, in the groin area. Makes a little bubble of white form under the skin so don't freak when you see that, it means you did it right!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Thanks Snipes, that sounds like it's not too bad. In reading the directions, I'm not thrilled to see it says "start with your least favorite birds" or something to that effect.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

maryjane said:


> Thanks Snipes, that sounds like it's not too bad. In reading the directions, I'm not thrilled to see it says "start with your least favorite birds" or something to that effect.


 What a horrible thing to say!! I never noticed that I guess.
As far as doing both vaccinations at once.........are you doing these in the leg or neck? We've done both at the same time and in both places. Doing the vaccinations at the same time didn't seem to make any difference to the birds, however, I DO think that if you are going to do both, then they should be done in the leg. Once shot on each side. When we did both in the neck, some of the birds bled a bit, which I didn't like. That was a few years ago and someone else came over to give the shots. One other thing, when you give the Paratyphoid shot in the leg, you'll see the birds start limping a little an hour or so later, so don't be alarmed. This only lasts for about 2 days and then they are fine. Good luck.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I was planning on neck (as there's a picture of that in the instructions) but I can do under the leg if that's a better idea. Is it kind of at the base of the leg? Or more in between the leg and groin? Using Azzy as a guinea pig, I was just looking and it's hard to pull up a bit of skin, the base of the leg lets you pull up just a bit of skin. I need to be able to pull up some skin to inject in, right? Maybe I will just do the PMV today in the neck, and wait until the second round of it to do the other. I just don't know what's best.  Oh, and the instructions say "If inexperienced, it is suggested that you practice on your least valuable birds first." I don't have any least-valuable birds! I guess that's directed to serious racers, I don't know. I am waiting for the vaccines to become room temperature, so will keep checking here before I start in a few hours. Thanks for everyone's input. It's funny, I'm not really needle-phobic (unless it's me getting the needle) and have in the past sewn up animals in an emergency with no problems. . .but this is just a bit daunting, I think it's because there are so many to do. Well, as the saying goes, one pigeon at a time!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

maryjane said:


> I was planning on neck (as there's a picture of that in the instructions) but I can do under the leg if that's a better idea. Is it kind of at the base of the leg? Or more in between the leg and groin? Using Azzy as a guinea pig, I was just looking and it's hard to pull up a bit of skin, the base of the leg lets you pull up just a bit of skin. I need to be able to pull up some skin to inject in, right? Maybe I will just do the PMV today in the neck, and wait until the second round of it to do the other. I just don't know what's best.  Oh, and the instructions say "If inexperienced, it is suggested that you practice on your least valuable birds first." I don't have any least-valuable birds! I guess that's directed to serious racers, I don't know. I am waiting for the vaccines to become room temperature, so will keep checking here before I start in a few hours. Thanks for everyone's input. It's funny, I'm not really needle-phobic (unless it's me getting the needle) and have in the past sewn up animals in an emergency with no problems. . .but this is just a bit daunting, I think it's because there are so many to do. Well, as the saying goes, one pigeon at a time!


Are you doing this alone? I recommend personally the leg and yes it's between the leg and groin. There is a pocket of skin there. I don't want to scare you, but..........I expect the reason that the instructions say what they do is because vaccinating in the neck, there's always the possibility of the bird flinching or moving and I'm told that if the needle hit them in the neck it could kill them. Vaccinating in the leg.........the worse thing you can do is hit a muscle and of course the bird would be sore, but that's about it. I AM needle-phobic, so I just couldn't even do what you are about to do. Bless you. Wish I could help. I can HOLD birds all day long......


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> Are you doing this alone? I recommend personally the leg and yes it's between the leg and groin. There is a pocket of skin there. I don't want to scare you, but..........I expect the reason that the instructions say what they do is because vaccinating in the neck, there's always the possibility of the bird flinching or moving and I'm told that if the needle hit them in the neck it could kill them. Vaccinating in the leg.........the worse thing you can do is hit a muscle and of course the bird would be sore, but that's about it. I AM needle-phobic, so I just couldn't even do what you are about to do. Bless you. Wish I could help.* I can HOLD birds all day long.*.....


Hehe me too. Not that most of them would appreciate it lol. I'm going to try to do it alone but might have to recruit a grumbling family member.  Was planning on using a towel-wrap if I need to on some of the "fighters". I should know this probably, but are CC and ML the same thing? I looked up CC and ML and they seem to be the same. . .as it says on the syringes "CC" but directions are to give .5 ML. On a conversion chart I found online, they are listed as the same thing: * "Milliliter (CC)". * It looks like they're the same but just want to be absolutely sure.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

maryjane said:


> Hehe me too. Not that most of them would appreciate it lol. I'm going to try to do it alone but might have to recruit a grumbling family member.  Was planning on using a towel-wrap if I need to on some of the "fighters". I should know this probably, but are CC and ML the same thing? I looked up CC and ML and they seem to be the same. . .as it says on the syringes "CC" but directions are to give .5 ML. On a conversion chart I found online, they are listed as the same thing: * "Milliliter (CC)". * It looks like they're the same but just want to be absolutely sure.


yes, give 1/2 CC each. You can do 6 birds with a 3CC syringe. Have you tried actually pushing the PMV vaccine through the needle? If not, beware.......it's pretty difficult to push through. The paratyphoid is like water, no problem, but the PMV is SO darn thick!!
That's another reason I like giving the shot in the leg. You lay the bird on it's back and it can't struggle near as much cause you have it's wings pinned down.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

If you clear the feathers from around the leg (blow on the area) you'll see this little 'web' of skin - it's similar to the bit between thumb and first finger - try spotting that. It's where to insert your needle..just enough to get under the skin, no deeper. It would be best if you can get someone to hold the birds...trouble is if they're not accustomed to holding them and they don't hold tight enough or let them squirm...still, better than trying to do it all by yourself  I wish you could find someone in your area to help the first time.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Okay, it's going WELL!!  I've done more than half of them. I tried the neck and the leg, and find for me that it's easier to do in the neck. I am NOT doing the PMV vacs today, as I only have two of the larger gauge needles from Foy's and need to get some more. But the Sal Bac goes in easily with the smaller needles I already have. No one is very happy with me at the moment lol, but none of them seem to hate it. It's pretty easy to do alone, I use a "burrito wrap towel" and also cover the head with another portion of towel, then leave the neck area exposed. It says not to inject above the shoulders, which is kind of difficult as the neck is above the shoulders. . . but I'm doing it at the base where the shoulders are. The last one I did, a spot of blood appeared when I took out the needle and I got a little panicky and came in for a breather. There was just the one spot of blood and no more came out. I really hope this isn't anything bad. It didn't happen with any of the other birds.  Okay, round two. Deep breath. Will there be any ill effects on the pigeons after this, like will they feel off for a day or two? It seems like Mrs. Bird and Gonzo both look a bit ruffled after this, but I can't tell if it's just the rubbing alcohol on their feathers or if they are feeling poorly. They both were fine before. I know I worry too much, I just want to be sure. Of course it would be those two, who if I had favorites, would be them!!

PS) They look fine now, I guess it was just me worrying. Everyone's done!!


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*Me too!*

Greetings, and thank you for starting this thread!! I just ordered my Sal-Bec and a dozen disposable needles from Foys..... I never vacinated before, and my birds came with no vacines. I could use the help also!!  
Renee, I am glad you warned about the neck. I only have 5, so I don't want to lose any!!  Also, it sounds like I am going to get some huge needles? I ordered #506 disposable needles..... Sounds like they are going to be huge. I still have time to change it, as the order is going out tomorrow. With the Sal-Bec, what size needle do you recomend? I am kinda nervous myself, so I am absorbing all of this info from you all!  Thanks, I will take the 12 needles off, and just order the Sal-Bec. Let me know what size needles to use , and I can pick them up tomorrow. Thank you for the info, Snowbird Sue


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Greetings, and thank you for starting this thread!! I just ordered my Sal-Bec and a dozen disposable needles from Foys..... I never vacinated before, and my birds came with no vacines. I could use the help also!!
> Renee, I am glad you warned about the neck. I only have 5, so I don't want to lose any!!  Also, it sounds like I am going to get some huge needles? I ordered #506 disposable needles..... Sounds like they are going to be huge. I still have time to change it, as the order is going out tomorrow. With the Sal-Bec, what size needle do you recomend? I am kinda nervous myself, so I am absorbing all of this info from you all!  Thanks, I will take the 12 needles off, and just order the Sal-Bec. Let me know what size needles to use , and I can pick them up tomorrow. Thank you for the info, Snowbird Sue


You need a 1/2" 20 gauge needle. I can't find them anywhere here. I HAVE to order them. The smallest I can find is 1"


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

This is copied from the web site. You ordered the right ones. 

_"Needles are size 20 X 1/2”._


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I also just saw this on the Foy's web site. I don't know that it would help push the PMV vaccine through any easier, but this is what they say do.  
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/176-511.html

_We occasionally get calls from customers saying that they can not operate their syringe properly. They have to push real hard and it seems impossible to force the vaccine through. Here is what you need to do: Before you push the needle into the bottle, pull the plunger all the way back, then insert the needle. Push the plunger down as though you are pushing air into the bottle, then pull the plunger back to fill it. You may also remove the plunger and put a small amount of vegetable oil on the rubber “o” ring._


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Foy's says this about all the needles they send: * "Needles are size 20 X 1/2”.* The needles I used were a bit smaller for the Sal Bac, but I had those on hand. I don't know exactly what size they are. I think the ones Foy's sells are just fine to use, they don't seem much bigger at all to me.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Hehe Renee, looks like I was writing while you were posting.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*Thanks again!*



Lovebirds said:


> This is copied from the web site. You ordered the right ones.
> 
> _"Needles are size 20 X 1/2”._


 Thanks Renee, I am glad to hear that! The more I read, the bigger those needles sounded!  I was begining to wonder if the were for a horse!  Seriously, I really do need all the advice I can get! Snowbird Sue!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

maryjane said:


> PS) They look fine now, I guess it was just me worrying. Everyone's done!!


 Congratulations!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

You did it, MJ! It _is _scary, especially the first time. Some of them bleed a little no matter how careful you are, but they will be okay. And they forgive you after awhile, too.

The Snipes: I really appreciate the tip on injecting the bottle with a single needle and filling up by swapping out the syringes. That was one of my concerns before, that repeatedly stabbing the stopper in the bottle led to its breakdown and crumbles of rubber in the vaccine. 

I think I might try using the leg area next time, although I've done okay doing it in the base of the neck all this time. I've done several hundred injections by now and only had one bad reaction and the bird recovered. I don't like vaccinating but it really is necessary, especially since we show. 

A couple more things: you really do need the big 20 gauge needles for PMV 'cause it's so thick. And Sal-Bac is for paratyphoid (Salmonellosis), not pox. Pox is a brush-on vaccine.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Birdmom4ever said:


> You did it, MJ! It _is _scary, especially the first time. Some of them bleed a little no matter how careful you are, but they will be okay. And they forgive you after awhile, too.
> 
> *The Snipes: I really appreciate the tip on injecting the bottle with a single needle and filling up by swapping out the syringes. That was one of my concerns before, that repeatedly stabbing the stopper in the bottle led to its breakdown and crumbles of rubber in the vaccine. *


They don't seem to be mad anymore today, not when they saw me coming with breakfast.  With the bottle, I just put in one needle and used that same hole for the other needles. I tried it with one needle staying in, and switching the syringes, but was too afraid of poking myself with a needle lol, as some of the needles were reluctant to come off the syringe.  So I tried just using the same hole in the lid, made by the first needle, and that worked great, at least with the Sal Bac. I also read not to do the Pox vaccine at the same time so we're waiting a bit for that one too, though it's ready. That one I almost look forward too, pulling a couple feathers won't be fun, but better than needles!!!


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*Sal-Bec vacination question.....*

Greetings, fellow birders, I have a question: I will be vacinating with Sal-Bec, and it will be my birds fitst vaccine.. .. Now, I am going to attempt to do this with my husband's help, but I need to know, once we vacinate, how often do I need to repeat the Sal-Bec?  
I have 4 -adults, and 1- 5 week old. What is the "norm" for this particular vaccine? Yes, I am a newbie too!!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Greetings, fellow birders, I have a question: I will be vacinating with Sal-Bec, and it will be my birds fitst vaccine.. .. Now, I am going to attempt to do this with my husband's help, but I need to know, once we vacinate, how often do I need to repeat the Sal-Bec?
> I have 4 -adults, and 1- 5 week old. What is the "norm" for this particular vaccine? Yes, I am a newbie too!!


The leaflet that comes with the vaccine gives detailed instructions. You do the initial vaccination and then a booster 3-4 weeks later on all birds aged four weeks and older. They tell you to give them a Sal-Bac booster every six months, but we only do it once a year. Just make sure you complete the vaccinations 2-3 weeks prior to showing, racing or free-flying.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Thank you for the info. I do appriciate it. I ordered the Sal-Bec, and was just wondering , and now you have me back on the right road! Nothing like asking a quesiton and getting an answer!! I have a calendar just for the birds, so I WILL follow with 4 weeks after the first shot, and since I live in MI, would you suggest 1 or 2 times a year? I don't race or show, they are just my private pets. I may free-fly my youngsters this summer tho. Thank you again, Snowbird Sue!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I think you would be okay doing boosters once a year. A vet once told me the vaccines give immunity longer than the labeling says. You should do pox, too. That's an easy one because it's brush-on.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I think you would be okay doing boosters once a year. A vet once told me the vaccines give immunity longer than the labeling says. You should do pox, too. That's an easy one because it's brush-on.


Thank you for the info. When I get it, I can do the first one and then again in 4 weeks, and Once a year is do-able.  Shouldn't I find out someway if I am in a "POX STATE" first? Yes, I am curious, and hungry for info!  
Also, what is the "norm" for a hen with chicks? Can I safely vaccinate her as well?
Thank you, Snowbird Sue


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I've vaccinated hens with chicks in the nest with Sal-Bac and PMV-1 but _not _pox. My understand of the pox vaccine is that you must vaccinate all birds at the same time or there is a slight risk of those not vaccinated catching pox because a weakened, not dead, virus is used. For this reason I definitely would _not _vaccinate a hen with chicks for pox. Wait until the chicks are old enough and do them all at the same time. 

I've also heard pox is more prevalent in the east and south than in other parts of the U.S. One fancier told me it's not a big problem here in California but then I read of feral pigeons with pox in CA so I don't know if that's true. I can say that I haven't seen it in the wild birds or feral pigeons in our area. To tell the truth I've never gotten around to vaccinating for pox because it seems like I always have an early or late hatch or oops baby and can't do everyone at once. I do however, vaccinate for paratyphoid and PMV yearly.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I've vaccinated hens with chicks in the nest with Sal-Bac and PMV-1 but _not _pox. My understand of the pox vaccine is that you must vaccinate all birds at the same time or there is a slight risk of those not vaccinated catching pox because a weakened, not dead, virus is used. For this reason I definitely would _not _vaccinate a hen with chicks for pox. Wait until the chicks are old enough and do them all at the same time.
> 
> I've also heard pox is more prevalent in the east and south than in other parts of the U.S. One fancier told me it's not a big problem here in California but then I read of feral pigeons with pox in CA so I don't know if that's true. I can say that I haven't seen it in the wild birds or feral pigeons in our area. To tell the truth I've never gotten around to vaccinating for pox because it seems like I always have an early or late hatch or oops baby and can't do everyone at once. I do however, vaccinate for paratyphoid and PMV yearly.


Thank you for the info. Being in Michigan, I don't know about the Pox here, but will for sure vaccinate all when I get the Vaccine. I ordered it, but it hasn't arrived yet. I am looking for it next week. A HUGE thank you to you! I will take notes, also! I have the Sal-Bec coming, but haven't ordered teh PMV yet. It sounds like Elmers Glue! I have no idea on how to do that one. Heck, I am new at this myself, so the Sal-Bec will be my first vaccine, and I am leaning towards doing that in the flappy skin down by the leg (?)  
I will let you know how it goes. My husband will be helping me with that. thank you so much, Snowbird Sue


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

You're welcome! The PMV-1 vaccine is the consistency of Elmer's glue, but when you use 20 gauge needles you can push it through. It's not fun, but don't worry, you'll be able to do this.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

Birdmom4ever said:


> You're welcome! The PMV-1 vaccine is the consistency of Elmer's glue, but when you use 20 gauge needles you can push it through. It's not fun, but don't worry, you'll be able to do this.


I think you have more confidence in me than I do!!  I am still waiting for the Sal-Bec, and my five little prisoners will be my first to vaccinate! If they all live thu that, I will consider the "elmers glue", but am not fond of large needles either.  Of course, I will keep ya posted!! They all managed to live thru the worming. I guess that is a bonus!!!  Thanks, and I will be in touch, Snowbird Sue


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Snowbird Sue said:


> I think you have more confidence in me than I do!!  I am still waiting for the Sal-Bec, and my five little prisoners will be my first to vaccinate! If they all live thu that, I will consider the "elmers glue", but am not fond of large needles either.  Of course, I will keep ya posted!! They all managed to live thru the worming. I guess that is a bonus!!!  Thanks, and I will be in touch, Snowbird Sue


When exactly did you order these vaccines and do you know when they were shipped? All vaccines are supposed to be shipped 2 day air with an ice pack. They have to kept cold. Seems like it's taking too long for you to get this stuff.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*They all lived thru it!*

Hi Renee, I ordered the Sal-Bec from Foy's. I got it this morning, and yes, it was on ice. I let it get to room temp. and then we went out and played DR!  They all lived!  I even shocked myself! i don't like shots, and this was my FIRST time ever vaccinating anything!! We did the groin area, between the leg and the groin. They didn't seem to mind at all. Let's see how anxious they are when I repeat it in a month!  I think I was more nervous than the birds!! thanks for all the help and info, and I would have been online sooner, but I had a small computer glitch. !!! Now that that is all done, I must play catch-up!  Thank you to all again, Snowbird Sue


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Hi Renee, I ordered the Sal-Bec from Foy's. I got it this morning, and yes, it was on ice. I let it get to room temp. and then we went out and played DR!  *They all lived!*  I even shocked myself! i don't like shots, and this was my FIRST time ever vaccinating anything!! We did the groin area, between the leg and the groin. They didn't seem to mind at all. Let's see how anxious they are when I repeat it in a month!  I think I was more nervous than the birds!! thanks for all the help and info, and I would have been online sooner, but I had a small computer glitch. !!! Now that that is all done, I must play catch-up!  Thank you to all again, Snowbird Sue


Well, I figured they would.........LOL
I'll have to tell you what happened the first time we vaccinated. Cooking dinner now, so no time..........I know you're glad THAT'S over with.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*first Vaccinations....!*

Hi Renee, I just checked on the birds, and they are fine....... BUT, I did hear a faint whisper of "here comes Nurse Ratchet!"  when I was out there. Hmmmmmm.  I thought that was cute! Snowbird Sue


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Good job, Sue. See, I knew you could do it.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Snowbird Sue said:


> Hi Renee, I just checked on the birds, and they are fine....... BUT, I did hear a faint whisper of "here comes Nurse Ratchet!"  when I was out there. Hmmmmmm.  I thought that was cute! Snowbird Sue


The very first time we ever vaccinated our birds, we had a couple of guys in our club come over to do it, while we watched. We also had some friends that had just gotten pigeons and wanted to come watch, so they came over. Both of them (the new pigeon owners) are nurses in the ER, so giving a shot was nothing really. They just wanted to see "where and how"......so David and Steve (the pigeon fanciers) gave a few vaccinations while everyone but me watched. I couldn't stand it.  Then Paul and Megan (the new pigeon owners) decided they would give it a try. Megan was holding the bird and Paul was giving the shot. Well, we were first shown how to give the injection in the neck, so you have to hold the birds nose and stretch it's neck out while the shot is being given. Megan gets hold of the birds nose and Paul is trying to figure out exactly where to put the needle. AFTER he gave the shot, (I'm out in the hallway), I hear, "oh my God.......I killed it!!!". Needless to say, I came running, thinking they had killed one of my birds. Well, what happened was, Megan held the birds nose so long, that it couldn't breath, and it passed out. The bird just went limp in her hands. I started crying, Megan started crying......it was pitiful,.......then, all of the sudden, the bird opened it's eyes and it was fine. That's when we realized what had happened. It's funny now, but trust me, it wasn't funny THAT day........I'll never forget it as long as I live. THEN, I decided I was going to be brave and give a shot, so I sit down, Everett is holding the bird, I take the needle in my hand and just couldn't do it. To this day, I've never been able to vaccinate my birds.


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## Snowbird Sue (Dec 31, 2007)

*That is precious!*

Hi Renee, that is so cute! I can understand your frustration! I never gave a shot before, but no vets around "did birds", and even the pet shops locally that sell birds told me, "good luck finding a vet!".... I had one for my dogs and cat, but she didn't do birds, so I just figured after reading PT, that I had nothing to lose by trying. We did it between the leg and groin, as someone had stated in a post earlier. It really went well, and surprised me. I was really afraid of the neck, REALLY !  I didn't want to hit the wrong "spot".... the flap between the leg and the groin was real easy to find and inject. I will not be so afraid next time ( I will have to remember that when I go to the DR next week! Anyhow, thank you for sharing with me! Snowbird Sue


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