# Poison? Help Asap!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, picked up a guy that was acting drunk, falling down, and tipsy everywhere.
I DONT have charcoal, and i dont know what to do? Boston is a graveyard on sundays, nothing is open!
WHAT CAN I DO? WHAT IS THIS?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is his crop full of seeds? I usually see Avitrol in corn around here.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, picked up a guy that was acting drunk, falling down, and tipsy everywhere.
> I DONT have charcoal, and i dont know what to do? Boston is a graveyard on sundays, nothing is open!
> WHAT CAN I DO? WHAT IS THIS?


Moxie, activated charcoal can be purchased at the drugstore. The drugstores are open Sundays in Boston, call in your area.

Also, sometimes a sick and dehydrated bird can appear to be drunk in that
they can stagger around.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, *picked up a guy that was acting drunk, falling down, and tipsy everywhere.*
> I DONT have charcoal, and i dont know what to do? Boston is a graveyard on sundays, nothing is open!
> WHAT CAN I DO? *WHAT IS THIS*?


It could be a number of things Moxie.
Poison, starvation/dehydration, a concussion & the list can go on.

First & foremost you need to get the bird stabilized. Here's the link to the thread that will help you do that.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

He needs to be on heat for about 20 minutes or so to help him *regain* & *maintain* his body temperture.

Here are a few things to check:
Is his mouth free of obstruction? Is his keel (breast) bone sharp? Is he vomiting? If so, *what* is he vomiting? What do his droppings look like, if there are any? 

Let us know who things are going.

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i KNOW the drugstores are open sundays, i meant like health food stores!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks Cindy, i happened to just talk to Pidgey, and talked these things over, to keep you keep you updated, i just got the bird about an hour ago, his keel bone seems fine, he hasnt pooped, his mouth is free of obstruction, and he was eating when i caught him, just acting drunk. i just called every pharmacy around, and they all dont sell it anymore, i'm on my way to home depot, they might have it, wish me luck!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> i KNOW the drugstores are open sundays, i meant like health food stores!


They usually are, Moxie, I know Whole Foods is open and some others, but
it still might be better to get activated charcoal at a drugstore like Walgreens.
It may not be what is indicated though, I'd go through the steps that Cindy
outlined and hopefully you will narrow things down.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, he just pooped, it's grass green/white urates. the home depot is an hour away, by bus or bicycle, so i'm out...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, he just pooped, it's grass green/white urates. the home depot is an hour away, by bus or bicycle, so i'm out...



Moxie, if you're thinking of getting charcoal brickettes, many of them these days have chemicals added to them, something for you to think about.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It just happened that Friday night I received a dove with much of the same symptoms you are describing, plus right leg paralysis.
My thoughts were PMV, head trauma or poisoning. Today the bird is standind, walking, eating and pooping great.

I didn't put him on heat, in case it was head trauma, but I kept him comfortably warm, by wrapping his cage in a blanket and putting a think towel at the bottom of the cage. I gave 10% of his weight Pedialyte and added some calcium to it. I also gave metacam. At some point I thought I was loosing him, he seemed to get worse and was laying down with the wings spread out. An hour later he was sitting up. An hour later I gave 5 more cc's of Pedialyte and let him be for the night. Next day he was better and is improving since. So, my guess is he had a concussion. I didn't think he was dehydrated as he looked good and well nourished and he was quite alert even agitated.
I am not saying this is what your bird has, but by hydrating and keeping him comfortable you can't go wrong. Also you can add calcium and an antiinflammatory and see how it goes.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moxie,




Do not try and use Charcoal Briquettes, since they themselves would poison the Bird.


Does the Bird have any smell to them? Their Body or their breath?

If so, would you describe?



Do not let them drink...absolutely do not let them drink anything for today.

If they had eaten Poison Seeds, letting them drink will be their death sentence.



How full is their Crop, and what do the Seeds feel like? Do they feel like large kernals of Corn?


Are the Bird's eyes of an appropriate dialaiton for the ambient light?


Is the Bird panting? Frenetic? Trembleing? Over-exicited? Javing siezures?



Ostensible intoxications can result from causes other than 'poisoning' in the sense of the Bird eating Poisoned Seeds...

It can result from Yeast infections, or food poisoning in a conventional sense of it, to where the Bird appears 'drunk' or in a stupor.


Has the Bird thrown up anything? and are you keeping them in such a way to where you can tell if they do?



Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> *I didn't put him on heat, in case it was head trauma*, but I kept him comfortably warm, by wrapping his cage in a blanket and putting a think towel at the bottom of the cage.
> 
> Reti


You may want to go with Reti's suggestion, Moxie, with regard to the heat. I, personally, have never had any problems, but the possibility of head trauma vs. heat is worthy of consideration.

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

AZWhitefeather said:


> You may want to go with Reti's suggestion, Moxie, with regard to the heat. I, personally, have never had any problems, but the possibility of head trauma vs. heat is worthy of consideration.
> 
> Cindy



My vet's clinic has printed out an emergency brochure for birds and it states, heating pad for everything (illness, poisoning, injuries on the body etc) except for head trauma. The thing is, when we find them how do we know if they have it or not. By keeping them warm without a heating pad, I found it helps and I had no problems with any of them.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, and NO, i wasnt getting charcoal briquettes! he he he, that would be funny! I'm afraid now, with all the recent excitement, you guys will NEVER give me any credit again!  
ok, i happened to stop into a little tiny pharmacy, and they had something called "charco caps dietary supplement activated charcoal," but the pharmacist said if i am using it for poison it wont work, and it says on the bottle not to use it for that, but it IS activated charcoal. serving size 2 caps is 520 mg of activated charcoal.
Phil, i'm going to go check the bird more to answer some of your questions, BRB


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Littlebird wondered if you had a pet store anywhere around there. Here's a product that they may carry:

http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store...df6c30a2c4447f6042c4874e5ac9&product_id=11420

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, who manufactures the product that you purchased at Walgreen's?

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i just talked to Phil, because he had soo many darn questions! he he he!! but really, he had a few, and he thinks it is because he is in starvation mode, which seems right as this guy has grass green poops. i am going to feed him, and see what happens...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> ok, i just talked to Phil, because he had soo many darn questions! he he he!! but really, he had a few, and he thinks it is because he is in starvation mode, which seems right as this guy has grass green poops. i am going to feed him, and see what happens...


Moxie, if the bird is in starvation mode, you should give the bird some IRS first
before beginning food. That would be a pinch of both sugar and salt in a cup 
of warmish water dissolved and dribbled alongside of the beak. If this has already happened, very small amounts of food at first.

fp


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Moxie and *Pidgey*, (and others)

I'm about to hit the sack, taking a quick look-see, saw this thread, haven't skim-read more than first few posts,

but, when I had diarrhea in 1983, on week-end before I picked up charcoal tablets at pharmacy here in Cologne, I tried an old home remedy taught me by my mom:

*Burnt flour*

take some flour, burn it in frying pan (iron skillet, probably should stay away from Teflon). It will turn dark brown slowly. I never made it absolutely black.

It works to absorb acid.
*
Take this for what it's worth, if anything.*

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Larry, 

Humans+diarhea=ground capped cinnamon/PO=no diarhea 

fp 



Larry_Cologne said:


> Moxie and *Pidgey*, (and others)
> 
> I'm about to hit the sack, taking a quick look-see, saw this thread, haven't skim-read more than first few posts,
> 
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, all...


Moxie mentioned White Urates and Green ( dabs of paint-like ) poops...


Probably a slow re-hydration schedule would be ideal...but I just said mix some formula with ACV-Water and make it extra 'soupy'...10 - 15 CCs for now, and consider to do again in four hores, and watch for poops...


Probably this Bird had been ( for whatever reason, ) grounded, and had not found food, but had been able to find Water...


Moxie does have 'Pedalyte' I believe...though I myself am not familiar with it...


I do not feel this sounds to be a 'Poison' case, but rather, one of starvation...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, is ACV a substitutefor IRS?

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I'm inclined to agree about the starvation. Moxie, Phil does it just the way we do. But, keep checking the crop before you feed and wait a bit longer than 4 hours if the crop has not gone down. I would not feed it more than 10-15 cc per feeding for a few days.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, something else to ponder over, his feet/legs are VERY hot, usually their legs dont feel that warm. now i know their body heat is higher than ours, but the feet usually are cooler.
also, i bought this darn charcoal for close to $20, isnt activated charcoal the same as all other activated charcoal? i wonder if they put that on their so people wouldnt use it for poison and then sue them when it doesnt work? i mean, the smarts going through the gene pools these days, wouldnt surprise me! LOL>>>
so, will this stuff work? for future reference...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> oh, something else to ponder over, his feet/legs are VERY hot, usually their legs dont feel that warm. now i know their body heat is higher than ours, but the feet usually are cooler.
> also, i bought this darn charcoal for close to $20, isnt activated charcoal the same as all other activated charcoal? i wonder if they put that on their so people wouldnt use it for poison and then sue them when it doesnt work? i mean, the smarts going through the gene pools these days, wouldnt surprise me! LOL>>>
> so, will this stuff work? for future reference...


Moxie,
I'm happy to look it up for you if you tell me who manufactured it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let's make sure and isolate this bird. Birds don't get fever very often (if that's what this is) and it's often of viral origin.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have a human thermometer that goes up to 108 deg F?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Charis, i can look it up, thanks so much though! Hey, hows Portland these days? i'm from out there, and i really miss it! are you from Portland? do you know where White Salmon, washington is? about 60 miles east of you, up the gorge, on WA side?
well, that little tiny speck of a town is where i lived till i was about 14, my parents still live there, although i havent been back for about 8 years.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

man, my thermometer is broken...
Yes, phil said it is probably starvation mode, but we have to wonder how they got starved to begin with, so maybe he does have something...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

http://www.drugstore.com/qxp85646_333181_sespider/charcocaps/activated_charcoal_capsules.htm

this is what i bought, it says on the bottom of page that it wont work for poison, but it will suck up any medication you take it with, isnt that the point? if it sucks up meds, wont it suck up poison?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i just checked, his feet/legs are WAY hotter than his body, and that isnt after he's been laying on them either, what does that mean? isnt that kind of weird?
oh, and Larry, 1983 is the last time you had diarrhea? you're ONE healthy guy! or 1983 was a particularly bad year for it, to make you recall it like that!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can take a thermometer and slide it into the bird's feathers by the side of the body under the wing, from behind the wing. That way, it's held like we sometimes do--under a person's armpit. You have to hold the bird with its wings held to the body to keep it in place for quite awhile. It should get to about 107 to 107.5. If it goes a lot warmer than that (above 108 and quickly), then you'd have to start worrying that direction.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I note what you're saying (how'd you tell?) but I don't know what to tell you.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Charis, i can look it up, thanks so much though! Hey, hows Portland these days? i'm from out there, and i really miss it! are you from Portland? do you know where White Salmon, washington is? about 60 miles east of you, up the gorge, on WA side?
> well, that little tiny speck of a town is where i lived till i was about 14, my parents still live there, although i havent been back for about 8 years.


Portland is great, Moxie and yes I know where White Salmon is.
Odd similarity between us..I went to school in Boston too.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, i'm gonna have to get a thermometer tomorrow.
man, i tell you, these birds are so expensive, and i dont even have many meds/supplies at all, i dont know HOW you guys do it!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We accumulate.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

hi raina,
an old-fashioned (mercury) thermometer costs $1-2, and you can get digital thermometers for $5-6. so i think you should be ok


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Phil, is ACV a substitutefor IRS?
> 
> fp



Hi fp,



The 'Internal Revenue Service'?


I do not know what 'IRS" is...otherwise...


...do explain?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

International Rehydration Solution.

I think.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moxie, 



I get, or have Birds who sometimes are "hot" or have hot feet and I do not know that it means anything necessarily. Some of these Pigeons are the picture of Health, others atre obviously ill...so, I dunno on the Hot-Feet thing, what it means, other than they are sending more Blood supply TO their Feet, for whatever reason.


If he has a genuine fever, it may be a result of illness of course, bacterial or viral, but for now I would not worry about that...

I think dehydration can make them run 'hot' but I am not sure.


I would get him re-hydrated with electrolytes, and soon after, start getting thin soupy formula meals into him...10 to 15 CCs, spaced four hours apart ( and, as Maggie reminds, ) so long as the Crop seems to me ready for more...if the Crop does not seem to have passed the last meal, then wait some more till it does seem ready.

I would mix the formula with the famous ACV-Water...

Save your Charcoal for another time...



He may have bad Worm infestations, he may have eaten some spoiled or bad or wrong food and got food poisoning 9 which b y now would have left his system, but left him weak and run down and prevented him from graing for who knows how long), he may have been wacked just bad enough to be alright, but to have not been flying for a week or something...no telling how he got grounded, or if that was even for sure his issue preceding/causing his starvation...

If he was making White Urates to any real extent, ths suggests he was finding at least some water, even if finding no food.

Anyway, get him re-hydrated, get nourishment into him slowly over the hours and so on, and see how things go...it can take a few days sometimes for them to really start to come back, but most start to come back in ony half a day or so.


You/we can tell better then if there may be illness/injury issues to be concerned about...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> International Rehydration Solution.
> 
> *I think*.
> 
> Pidgey


Yes, that's right.

Cindy


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*1984, rather than 1983. George Orwell's famous year.*

Hello Moxie,

*Personal reminisences of 1984-1985*

Actually, this particular bout of diarrhea occurred in 1984, not 1983, and was probably caused by food poisoning. On April 20th, Good Friday (Catholic religious holiday in Germany, also Easter Monday), the art teacher of a life-drawing course (where I met my future wife, Hilde) and I were going to Amsterdam for the Easter week-end. Hilde was an _au-pair_ (live-in babysitter) for a childhood friend of hers who lived in Cologne, and didn't make much money. She usually had enough for coffee or tea, but not a meal out. I offered to drop her off at her parents' in Antwerp on our way to Amsterdam, to save her train fare. (I didn't realize how much out of the way Antwerp would have been, but liked driving). Hilde was always knitting colorful baby pullovers (most of them would fit only very oddly-shaped babies, such as premies with barrel-shaped torsos and twigs for arms, but that didn't seem to matter to her), and one thing I noticed about her was that she would use pieces of yarn instead of nuts and bolts to hold various parts of her bike together, and I had offered mechanical maintenance. When the Sunday mid-day art class would convene at a cafe or _Kneipe_ (tavern) afterwards, the women would congregate, and about every ten minutes I distinctly heard the word "pullover" (on many occasions). Didn't understand many of the other German words they used. They didn't have kids of their own, so it was art and knitting, I suppose. 

I arrived at the place where she was staying five minutes after the agreed time of noon, after picking up my art teacher, and her friend's husband said that she had left on foot fifteen to twenty minutes earlier for the train station. I drove to the train station not far away, looked for but didn't see her. Later found out that she had hitch-hiked the 210 kilometers (about 130 miles).

I hadn't even thought about dating her then, but I had met her family during the previous Christmas holidays when the art class went to Antwerp for an excursion for a few days, and I liked them a lot and the way her family interacted. I took Hilde to a Santana/Joan Baez/Bob Dylan concert on Saturday, June 16, 1984 in Cologne. A week or so later, while sitting on a park bench, I asked her in a round-about way what she thought about getting married, and she said she wanted to be an artist. I thought about that, said "you _can_ do both," said I would help support her artistic endeavors if that's what she wanted to do, although we wouldn't have much in the way of material possessions. On July 11th, after dating three weeks or so, we engaged to be married (which date she remembered because it was her youngest brother's birthday). I decided on the following spring, because of required international paperwork and translations (involving Belgium, Germany, and the U.S.), and to give her time to change her mind. (My brothers joked that when I asked her if she wanted to marry, she thought I was asking her if she wanted a coffee, and she responded "yes" to the wrong question). She had improved her English when she developed a teenager's interest in the British rock group "The Kinks." We married April 20th, 1985 in Antwerp. My parents came from the U.S., and my father, a Catholic deacon, officiated in the ceremonies, along with the parish priest. There was also a required (in Belgium) secular ceremony afterwards in the town hall, which had rich trappings. Many years later I came across the April 20th, 1984 Amsterdam ship hotel receipt, and realized how quickly everything had happened that year. 

In Amsterdam my art teacher and I ate well-cooked Chinese food Friday night, stayed at a ship hotel moored in a canal near the main train station, had a "Continental breakfast" (cold bread rolls, coffee, cheese, boiled egg, etc.). For Saturday supper we tried out a McDonald's for the "American experience," and I got diarrhea. Had to cut short the trip. No visit to the Van Gogh museum this time. Many stops on the way home Easter Sunday. 

I've had urgent sit-down-quickly business to do in the smallest room of the apartment since then, usually from too much coffee, sometimes a combination of coffee and beer (both diuretics), and sometimes from one or the other combined with a lot of mechanical stimulation in the form of total-body vibrations while traveling long distances in a car. 

*
Hot feet in pigeons*

My male pigeon *Wieteke*, who will be two years old in two weeks, has had very warm feet this spring and summer, even on cool days. From his behavior and activity, I associate it with elevated reproductive hormone levels. His legs and feet haven't changed color noticeably, but his legs and often his whole underside will feel warm. On hot days, I have actually heard him clicking, with his throat pulsing, his beak held open, when he tries to cool of after flight. He does open-mouthed breathing most often after he has to climb steeply in flight (45 degrees or more) to negotiate a short, restricted distance.

Larry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

How is the bird doing this moring, Moxie?

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

sorry, i havent checked in. i've given serious thought to dropping out of this site, but since this isthe only help for pigeons i have, i have to put my emotions to the side for the sake of my pigeons.
he is fine, pooping A LOT!! still drunk as a skunk, wherever that saying came from, doesnt make much sense, does it? i've never seen a drunk skunk!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> *he is fine*, pooping A LOT!! *still drunk as a skunk*


Moxie,
If he's still acting as though he's drunk, he isn't fine.
Could you describe his droppings?
You had mentioned his feet were warm, are they still?
You also had mentioned he was falling down, is he still or is it more like just staggering?

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> sorry, i havent checked in. i've given serious thought to dropping out of this site, but since this isthe only help for pigeons i have, i have to put my emotions to the side for the sake of my pigeons.
> he is fine, pooping A LOT!! still drunk as a skunk, wherever that saying came from, doesnt make much sense, does it? i've never seen a drunk skunk!




Hi X, 




The 'drunk' acting is typical of having suffered privations, with dehydration related issues likely being most of it.


I am dazed presently...can you remind me please - have you been rehydrating with an actual rehydration solution? ( Pinch of common table salt, pinch of Sugar, dissolved in a small glass of Water, and I would also say, a pinch of regular 'Salt Substitute' being Potassium Chloride, being added also if one can get some at the store...)


This wobblyeness can take a week or more to clear up...


Is he able to stand or lay down with poise some of the time at least?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

what does salt substitute do differently than salt?
oh, Cindy, of course he isnt FINE, but i meant he hasnt taken a turn for the worse, sorry, didnt mean to imply he was all better. I guess i should have said, i talked to Phil on the phone, and he said that the "drunkedness," could last for a week, so i should have said that, sorry. Now, since we all know that now, i mean he's fine besides that, and since i expected that, i meant he's fine otherwise.
so, at first he was pooping the oil paint textured, grass green poop with white urates. now it is more of a forest green, with white urates.
Phil, remember, you asked me to use ACV water when mixing his kaytee? My question is, i fed him Kaytee yesterday, but he's eating fine now, do ineed to still give kaytee? I havent today because i assumed i didnt need to, but i shouldnt assume anything.
Phil, he can sit fine, standing only some of the time. he wobbles and has to use his wing to stand the other times. he's flying ok, although the landings are tough, otherwise, he just sits in this basket i have, and fly's to my closet door the rest.
he's a bit friendly at times. oh, and it's tough for him to drink water, he falls in it a bit.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Moxie,
Can you post a picture of this bird?

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, there are illnesses that have accompanying CNS symptoms both viral
and bacterial. If viral, fine, supportive care is the recommended course for
all viral infections unless a secondary bacterial infection sets in concurrently.
But if your bird has a bacterial infection and is 'drunk' from this, waiting a week
could endanger the bird. If you can get pictures to us, please let us know,
also, do you have any meds on hand and if so what?

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> what does salt substitute do differently than salt?



Hi X, 


The kind of 'Salt Substitute' I had in mind, is Potassium Chloride...and it would be a valuable ingredient to add to one's rehydration solutions. Or, if one did not have better to use, anyway, it would be an improvement over the "Salt ( Sodium Chloride) and Sugar" ones...for the Solution to have all 'three'.





> ...oh, Cindy, of course he isnt FINE, but i meant he hasnt taken a turn for the worse, sorry, didnt mean to imply he was all better. I guess i should have said, i talked to Phil on the phone, and he said that the "drunkedness," could last for a week, so i should have said that, sorry.




Might last longer, too...


But that is it's own syndrome...differing from compromised Legs which can result from Back Injury or Kidney infections/swellings...


I am sorry X, but again, refresh my memory please...were his Legs giving him problems, seeming to be weak in the Legs? and THAT is why is seems unstable or un-co-ordinated?

Was his Neck and Head steady otherwise? Any necdk weakness or neck wobbles?


This might be a different scenario you are confronting, or an additional one, from the 'drunken' seeming ways of starvation/dehydration...





> Now, since we all know that now, i mean he's fine besides that, and since i expected that, i meant he's fine otherwise.
> so, at first he was pooping the oil paint textured, grass green poop with white urates. now it is more of a forest green, with white urates.



Poos are decent volume to indicate enough real food getting processed? 20, 30 even, decent large 'Raisen' sized ones-a-day now maybe?



I am wondering if this Pigeon in fact has a Kidney swelling or Back Injury then...?


Which could of course preceed starvation/dehydration, since such a Bird usually can not take off to fly...





> Phil, remember, you asked me to use ACV water when mixing his kaytee? My question is, i fed him Kaytee yesterday, but he's eating fine now, do ineed to still give kaytee? I havent today because i assumed i didnt need to, but i shouldnt assume anything./quote]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Moxie, there are illnesses that have accompanying CNS symptoms both viral
> and bacterial. If viral, fine, supportive care is the recommended course for
> all viral infections unless a secondary bacterial infection sets in concurrently.
> But if your bird has a bacterial infection and is 'drunk' from this, waiting a week
> ...



Hi fp, 


This is true, good mention...

Viral or Bacterial infections can make them seem very wobbley or 'drunk'...

Bad Yeast infecitons of the Crop can do it too, and they are literally 'intoxicated' in these cases...


I get used to thinking of this with starved/dehydrated ones and or was not thinking of it in this context...

Probably, if the Bird is eating on it's own, isw active and preening and so on, it is less likely a bad Yeast, or Bacterial/Viral situation, but still, could be...




Phil
Las Vegas


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, Phil told me it is probably starvation, because of the grass green poop. he said he's gotten a bunch like this, and they all did fine. I'm open to suggestions though, if there's something else it could be?
I can post a pic, let me go take it, ok? oh, first, what do you want a picture of, anything particular?
yes, i have some meds. let me make a list... i'll take the pic first


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

A few showing the overall demeanor of the bird and if there is a tilt or any
unusual postures, try and capture this in picture.

A picture of some representative droppings from the bird would also
be a good idea. Dehydration can also come w/sickness, it's just a good
idea to take a look at as many things here as possible. Thanks, Moxie.

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, he's always sitting, so i havent seen him walk much since yesterday. 
i put him down and chased him a bit, cause he'll just sit there and look for a place to fly to.
so, that said, he's not acting AS drunk as yesterday. still a bit, i'd say buzzed rather than drunk,  
so, i did notice something, he's limping a bit. now, the drunkedness has nothing to do with that limp. but i cant see anything, or feel anything wrong with that leg? it's a slight limp, but it's there, he does limp, and doesnt put weight on that foot if he can manage it. 
i'm getting pics ready now. 
phil, what do you mean the poops dont sound right?
ok, i dont know what you mean when you say if he sits with his legs forward? he doesnt seem to, and his neck and head dont really wobble. 
i know this drunk thing has nothing to do with the leg, because i've seen birds with ONE leg hop fine, no drunky stuff, BUT all birds are different, so whio knows, but yesterday was falling on BOTH sides, falling forward, backwards, when standing. etc etc, just drunk looking.
the limp is very subtle, but it's there.


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

http://www.msnusers.com/pigeoninjury/shoebox.msnw?Page=Last

the last 4 are him. the poo pic is his poop.
i didnt get a pic of him falling or anything, sorry, he likes to just run away or fly away to find a chill out spot.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhhh...casual descriptions can not convey what one needs to 'see' so often.


Illness indeed can or may follow in the throes of privation, and can be about anything illness-wise.


I feel the use of the ACV-Water is a reasponable and safe way of seeing to it at least saome of the inimical Organisms which might have been getting up steam to do mischief, would instead be discouraged or abated.

My suspicion X with yours there, pending more details, is that he may well have a Bacterial infecton which is enflaming or infecting or effecting the Kidneys, and I would have no idea what sort of Organism to suspect, nor, per-se, what particular medicine to use to address it.


Cipro/Batryl might be one to consider, if there is more considered reason to suspect a Kidney infection...and Metronidazole m-i-g-h-t be somehting to consider also, for it's side effects which can influence Kidney conditions favorably...but really I am speaking out of my depth to speculate like that out loud.


Goldenseal/Echinechia is something I would pseronally consider to add to his food, or to make into a stout Tea for him to drink...as well as getting him and some fresh poops of his to an experienced Avian Vet to find their opinion on whether this is a Kidney inflammation/infection situation, Back Injury, or something else which is effecting his Legs ( ? ) and poops secondarily.

Anyway, this was my thought, and granted, I am somewhat going out on a limb, pending more details on just what the term 'drunk' means in this case, whether it is global un-co-ordination, weakness making for balance problems, or is a manner of interpreting his weak Legs ( only ) and his balance issues from that.


I recall no 'Green' poops from recovering privation-Birds once their Bowels are functioning again...

While I DO recall 'green' ( sometimes like Spinach sour Cream 'dip' as for the swirled Green and White ) poops from Back injury or possibly Kidney infection ones...


Hopefully others here will have more or better ideas or reminesences on this kind of thing.



Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> http://www.msnusers.com/pigeoninjury/shoebox.msnw?Page=Last
> 
> the last 4 are him. the poo pic is his poop.
> i didnt get a pic of him falling or anything, sorry, he likes to just run away or fly away to find a chill out spot.


Thanks for posting the pictures Moxie.  

I must say, I have seen worse droppings. 

His cere looks a bit on the gray side rather than nice & white. Is that the case or is it the angle of the picture?

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*OK, only non-alcoholic beverages until he has bonafide ID, Moxie, but that sounds promising...*

it's a slight limp, but it's there, he does limp, and doesnt put weight on that foot if he can manage it. 


*Pics of the legs/feet would be good....Paratyphoid can affect the legs as well as the wings, any size difference from one side to the other in the joints? Any difference in feathering, coloration, or temperature from one side to the other?*

......i know this drunk thing has nothing to do with the leg, because i've seen birds with ONE leg hop fine, no drunky stuff, BUT all birds are different, so whio knows, but yesterday was falling on BOTH sides, falling forward, backwards, when standing. etc etc, just drunk looking.....[/QUOTE]

*They actually could be connected symptomatically.*

fp


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

alright, i DONT have a vet to take anything to. first off, i'm a poor student, second off, any GOOD avian vets are far away, too far for me to get to, AND the ones around here wont see wild birds, or will only see it if they can take them for good (ie, euthanasia.)
so, i'm at a loss as far as that goes. umm, i will call around tomorrow, because MAYBE they will look at the poop for me, who knows, right? worth a try, another, or i should say like a 10th or 20th try.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, I really didn't see anything horrible, as in, along w/Cindy I've seen worse.
Thanks for taking the pics and posting though. Might be helpful to put some
white paper towels under the bird for the purpose of keeping a better eye on 
the droppings, any continued or increased wetness or discoloration. Have you
noticed any unusual odor when doing the 'sniff test'? I think you already did
check inside the mouth and it was clear, correct?

Regarding the foot, in one of the pictures where the bird is holding it up,
there looks like there might be a cut or some thing between the toes that
you might want to take a closer look at. Also, if you have some antibiotic
creme, or Bach's rescue creme, you might want to put that on the foot after cleaning and see if you can see any noticable difference by the end of the day tomorrow.

For the digestive tract, do you have any probiotic capsules on hand? That
would likewise be a good idea to try and re-establish the gut flora for this
bird.

Cindy is right about the cere that it is a bit discolored....how about the feathers around the cere, any wetness there? Can't really see any from the
pics but that would be something to keep an eye on. Any soiled feathers
around the vent area of this bird?

I'm not seeing anything that is just jumping out at me and saying definitively
that yes, this is a bacterial problem. I would give him the natural approach
via topical to the feet, probiotics for the gut, and if not doing an adequate
job of self-feeding, augment the feedings to ensure that there is enough
nutrition for the bird's body to heal itself. You may want to supplement
water intake as well and could easily continue to tube some IRS a couple
of times throughout the day tomorrow and see if you see any overall improvement.

At first sign of the bird starting to go south w/any of the current symptoms,
I would start thinking about anti-biotics for h/her. Just continue to keep
close eye on the bird so no big surprises jump out and say BOO!

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> alright, i DONT have a vet to take anything to. first off, i'm a poor student, second off, any GOOD avian vets are far away, too far for me to get to, AND the ones around here wont see wild birds, or will only see it if they can take them for good (ie, euthanasia.).......


Might be a situation of the yet to be discovered, Moxie. Took me a bit to find
and understand _what I found_ here in this area. I still find other pieces
of the local picture over time. Some avian vets will ask that you sign the bird over to them but don't necessarily euthanize the bird. So patience and optimism iin trying to figure out angles, you may develop a way to work that local area that could benefit many more birds down the road, ones that others find as well. 

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

the cere is whitish, so must be the pic.
well, i just checked the pic, and it is about that color.
i'll have to give yogurt for the probiotics for now, is that ok? 
what kind of yogurt should i get?
oh, it must be the pic for the cut though, cause he doesnt have one. should i put neosporin on it anyways?


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

what do you mean find a way to work the local area?
oh, and every bird i've had that was in need of a vet, one i consulted, sent pics, and she said it would get put down. basically, the way it was said is there is only so much money to go around, and they usually only spend it on rare and easy to treat birds.
oh, and the "yet to be discovered," isnt here yet, so what do i do until then?


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> *the cere is whitish, so must be the pic.
> well, i just checked the pic, and it is about that color.*


Moxie,
Here's a picture of a 'healthy' cere. 
The subject is a pij from our backyard flock.  

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> http://www.msnusers.com/pigeoninjury/shoebox.msnw?Page=Last
> 
> the last 4 are him. the poo pic is his poop.
> i didnt get a pic of him falling or anything, sorry, he likes to just run away or fly away to find a chill out spot.



Hi X, 



The image of the poop looks normal enough to me, and is not what I was thinking of...which would be more like a dark Green with swirled White, like 'Spinach Sour Cream Dip' where this is more or less normal light 'green' so far as I can tell...with well defined Urates.


The other images do not suggest to me that he has a Back Injury, or Kidney infection or Kidney inflamation effecting his Sciatic Nerves.


So...hmmmmmm...

Might it be something as 'simple' as a sprained Leg? along with whatever period of starvation/dehydration he had somehow come to have? And while the latter is passing so far as symptoms, the sprained Leg is taking a while?

Have you carefully felt for any swelling places on the leg? a cracked bone, partially or mostly healed, will still have somehting for a lump where it is mending...and not all Pigeons are accomplished one-leggers or hoppers in these situations...especially if weak from other causes, or a viscious circle of not flying from inability to take off, making for slim chow for however long...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi X, 


As my posts get delayed sometimes many hours, they end up being no longer germain in view of subsequent postings that appear before mine do, so sorry about that, it is somehting I can not do anything about.


Ceres should be "White" like white Chaulk with a texture like Chaulk particles almost...lightly rough textures and brilliant "White"...some youngish Hens even who have brooded many of their own Babys, have more smooth and pinkish Ceres which are hardly White at all...but that is different from your's appearance.

Your Bird is likely a male, and, one would expect his Ceres to be very vivid "Chaulk" White indeed...

So, if they are a little 'grey-ish', or 'dampish', one has wonder if they are merely soiled from being handled and fed and so on, or, if their hint of dull 'greyness' may be taken as suggesting an illness/infection of some kind.

"Nystatin" for a few days...m-i-g-h-t be worth considering or obtaining opinions from others here about it's possible use in this situation.

I have had some occasions where poops were greyish pale 'green' and otherwise allright enough looking, and the Bird was somewhat off, and where the Bird got 'worse' instead of Better, there was some order of Fungal or odd Yeast or something effecting them, and my favored ACV-Water was not cutting the Mustard with it...where, the Nystatin, used for several days in a row, did take care of it.


Yeasts or fungal infections can make them dopey or 'drunk' like...and usually mess up their appetites but not always...


Nystatin ( or it's kin ) are harmless to the Bird and do not load him with any stress or burdon, and are not expensive.


If others concur that this might be what is afoot, I or others could send you some easily in the Mail if no one close to you has some handy...or maybe you have some already?


Anyway...



Best wishes!


It was a looooooooooooooooooong hard painful foray for me 'here' to find one ( "1" ) Vet I could count on for working with me now and then if I needed it.


I am sure many areas have such Vets but they can be very hard to find, and or one has to somehow hit them just 'so' for them to be willing to get involved in things like what we do.


If there are any 'Parrot Rescue' people or other groups who do exotic Bird stuff, ask them who they think might be someone you could try or go talk with.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison; said:


> Hi X,
> As my posts get delayed sometimes many hours, they end up being no longer germain in view of subsequent postings that appear before mine do, so sorry about that, it is somehting I can not do anything about.
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Phil,
*Your posts are not being delayed for hours*.  

In fact, even though it's after midnight, I have been waiting for you to submit this one so it could be approved.

You recently made another accusation that the moderators had delayed a particular post for hours. I was the one who had approved it & made an inquiry as to the exact time it had been approved.

The site log showed I approved it at 4:04 PM & you had submitted it at 3:33 PM. It was approved *31 minutes* after you submitted it. And I notified you of this. 

So, please, let's stop with the accusations that your posts are being delayed for many hours, because *they're not*.  

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, for those of you who don't know, Moxie is in the Boston area but not actually in Boston. She's in a little town northeast and across the water from the center of Boston and I think she's relegated to buses and bicycles for transporting the bird. While I'm sure that somewhere in the Boston area there is a more amenable vet that's yet to be found, it's probably a lot more fun looking for one in her status than most of the rest of us.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey, I do understand about no car. I also know that there is a pretty
good public transportation system not only in place for Boston, Cambridge,
Dorchester and Roxbury but also a system that reaches into the suburbs.
Moxie is appreciated for the efforts made on behalf of sick pigeons either
way.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

FP, know Boston?
well, Boston has the worst public transportation out of all the major cities. i can take bus or train, BUT the train doesnt go where i need to go, there is another train, that goes into the suburbs, "the commuter rail," AND it still doesnt go ANYWHERE near where i need to go. i've even offered to take the train as close as i could, and they wont meet me. lots of rehabbers want you to bring it right to them they figure, rightly, that they are doing the work at their cost, so yopu can AT LEAST bring it to them.
well, most of my friends are broke students or bike messengers, like me, so they dont drive, and the ones that do dont share my love of pigeons and wouldnt come near one if i paid them!
so, i'm not going to name names, but i know quite a few people on here who WONT DRIVE their own cars 30 miles for a bird, and i've freakin' taken one to nyc on a bus, and somehow it's never enough.
you see, if i had help in some way, i would take it, but i have my conditions, which i learned the hard way.
so, it comes down to a choice of not picking up the bird, letting it die, or picking it up and giving it a chance.
either way it seems i do wrong, if there was a place around here like animal general, i'd be psyched, and would be there all the time like Aias and Sabina and others, but i dont have that luxury. 
anyone, be my guest, call around if you want, i've already done so.
find me a vet or rehabber that will work for free, a place that will GIVE THE BIRD BACK, and will help me and i'll gladly go.
oh, you all remember Garye on here right? well, he had just as much trouble as i do, and he lives more in the suburbs and has a CAR, and that bird had to go to NYC to get help.
so, all i'm saying is, i'm not the only one up here thats had trouble, and Garye has a car, i dont, and i dont know his financial situation, but i'm broke. 
if anyone wants to fork over $200 every time i get a sick bird, which is turning out to be a lot, and rent a car for me, i know right where to go, otherwise, i'm out of luck.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Moxie, If you have the numbers of those rehabbers you are talking about, please PM them to me. I'll give them a call and see what I can work out on behalf of the pigeon or future pigeons and yourself.
If need be, I'm willing to come and meet them personally to establish a contact for you.
I'd drive miles to rescue a hurt animal.


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh sh*t! i just found a puncture hole! oh, man, it's not huge, about the size of a dime, some brown, dead flesh. i thought it was a piece of BIG metal staple, but i plucked it off, and it was dried black blood!
ok, gotta step out for 2 seconds, but wanted to get this up here!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Can you post a pic? 
Try flushing the wound first, just plain first boiled water and cooled will do. Clean up the wound and see how deep it goes.
Where is it located?
Is this birds on any antibiotics?

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, don't know if any of this will help.

We were pretty much like you when we started out - no resources for help. We got in a really sick pigeon and I called the vet nearest us who didn't "do" birds but did give us the names of rehabbers in our area who did. 

As luck would have it, we did find a rehabber who took care of all kinds of birds including pigeons and through her we hooked up with a vet. The rehabber is also a person who will go pick up a pigeon or meet someone, just like we do.

This is a link to the MA wildlife agency who is responsible for licensing all the rehabilitators in MA. I know that not all rehabbers care for pigeons but they usually know someone who does. You can contact several of them and see if they know of an unlicensed person who does rehabilitate pigeons, even if they don't. Most wildlife centers, even though they don't "rehabilitate" pigeons will treat them for broken limbs or wounds and then turn them over to a rehabber to finish the care. Even our local SPCA does this. We have received many pigeons from them over the years so you could possibly contact your local SPCA for names.

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/rehab/wildlife_rehab_index.htm


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

thanks Maggie, i have that link!
ok, i didnt mean a dime, i will post a pic, i just got another emergncy case in, REAL emergency, probably gonna have to be put down, so i gotta go for a bit...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, Moxie is in the middle of a rescuer/rehabber's worst nightmare. I've been expecting it since that one. There are canker (or Heaven only knows what) birds everywhere there and she's gotten a few in the last few days with some pretty rough conditions.

For those of you who are... brave... take a look at this one:



...and then be happy you're not in the middle of it.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re public transportation*

Moxie,

Since you're a student, you probably have checked all these possibilities, but just in case it slipped by you....

Here in Cologne (and in Germany), students get discounts on many things, one of them being public transport. They get a very good deal when they buy a year card. Others get a good deal when they buy a year card (monthly payments authorized to be automatically deducted from bank account. You get 13 months for a year card, the extra month allowed for the short one-month summer vacation -- plenty of other vacation breaks during regular school year). 

To take a bike on most public transportation costs an additional half-fare. Some restrictions on crowded buses with small doors and the like. Many commute town-to-city with their bikes, and do the last bit by bike.

I just know you've checked all this out, but though I'd check.

Could you afford to maintain a used car, of someone located a cheap one for you? (Could you afford the insurance, etc.?) Just a wild idea. I could ask a relative or two if they felt generous. No good prospects in mind, so no promises. But it does occasionally rain in the desert.

Larry


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And here's another that she's got:



She's seen several others but just doesn't have room in her house for any more at the moment--they've (there are several) got the bedroom.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Pidgey,

Thanks for uploading the pictures. I have your albums bookmarked in my (otherwise pretty empty) Webshots account.

That poor canker-afflicted pigeon says a lot with his eyes: he's wishing things were very different. Hope they change for the better for him.

Good luck, Moxie.


Larry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, thats a sad way to put it larry. i wanted to cry when i saw this guy. i hope he's ok, but it doesnt look like it will be.
yes, i do take the train, and bus, and have a pass. but the train doesnt get me where i need to go..
Thanks for the suggestions though, it is something that wasnt brought up before, so i do appreciate that.
oh, and a car, is a stupid, way too expensive thing to have here. ESPECIALLY my neighborhood!


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, my heart goes out to you and your new pigeons. That one with the bright eyes and terrible beak makes you want to bawl. In all our years rehabbing we have never (knock on wood) seen any canker to the degree that your last few have had except in 2 or 3 doves.

How are you fixed on medicine?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She's fine on Flagyl and I just ordered her some Divet tablets, Ivomec, Baytril 10% liquid (100 mls) and Amoxicillin powder so that'll get there pretty soon. She's probably going to be hitting the canker meds pretty hard in the next little bit. I was talking with her on the phone about that worst one and couldn't speak for awhile a few minutes ago. About all I could think of was to say that let's get some of that crap cleared out of the inside of the beak if possible so that we can at least get some meds and food going down into the bird so that if we have to put him down, at least he won't be starving to death when we do (which she's already done). We all know that the natural head actually waists down between the ceres and the forehead so I'm hoping that the main structural spar through there is still intact. However, if it's eaten through then the entire upper beak may fall off back behind the ceres.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Moxie,
I noticed the date on the pictures in post 76 is July 7th.
How is he doing now?

Cindy


----------



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, no, thats the wrong date, i just got that one a few hours ago... maybe my camera?
anyways, have you had one this bad? what do you think of the pic?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Looking at the file names, I'd just guess it's month and year. And I think she just got the other one yesterday, the one with the side of the beak that fell off.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> oh, no, thats the wrong date, i just got that one a few hours ago... maybe my camera?
> anyways, *have you had one this bad?* what do you think of the pic?


If you're asking *me*, personally, if I've ever had one that bad. Yes, I have, several as a matter of fact.  

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we know that the organism (and let's face it--this sure doesn't look like the standard presentation) comes in as many strains as there are stars in the night sky over the North Pole in our winter. This one seems to be particularly cruel. Moxie said there are more that she hasn't been able to catch that are just about as bad. Many of them will be in a few days, I expect.

Pidgey


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> And *I think she just got the other one yesterday*, the one with the side of the beak that fell off.
> 
> Pidgey


Moxie,
Perhaps you could give us a list, with a quick description, of each bird you now have in your possession. This way we will all have some idea of what's going on & offer suggestions accordingly.  Thanks.

Cindy


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oye...


When it rains, it pours...



So...Moxie, since I am brain dead, remind me please?

Are you good-to-go as far as tube-feeding is concerned?


Do you have the impliments and some experience at it?


Too, as Jazaroo was experimenting with, and which I also have done since his mentioning it, making a solution of some Dimetridazole/Ronidazole/Metronidazole or whatever 'zole'...making a small batch of solution of one of the anti-canker meds, and adding some DMSO, can permit topical applications to permiate underlieing tissues/infections, such as those which are afflicting the Mouth and Beak.



I am sorry X that you are getting slammed like this...it is hell, I know...


Good luck...

Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You doth not know what it is that you ask...

Maybe somebody on here's got the time to find Moxie an online typing class (this just occurred to me that there should be something like that). She's gonna' need to learn how to do it with more than just two fingers. How in the world does a young person get outa' high school these days without having taken typing?

Pidgey


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> *You doth not know what it is that you ask*...
> 
> Pidgey


Oh, but I do.  

Cindy


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, Moxie, this ain't going to help you for compiling Cindy's List (not to be confused with Schindler's List) but it's my suggestion that you spend a little time each day with this FREE online course:

http://www.goodtyping.com/

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You kinda' gotta' sorta' wonder if there's some other component to this. In some ways, it kinda' reminds one of pox as well (which I've never seen with my own eyes, knock on wood), at least some of the pictures. That little yellow bulge out the side of that one's eye (just forward). Anybody think that's part of this? Some of the other stuff inside has been reminiscent of a wet pox.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Moxie,
> Perhaps you could give us a list, with a quick description, of each bird you now have in your possession. This way we will all have some idea of what's going on & offer suggestions accordingly.  Thanks.
> 
> Cindy



Yes...this would help very much in keeping track of what is being discussed, and or about what or which Bird.

Or, ideally, each Bird gets it's own Thread, so there is less possibility of confusion...and no need for a 'list' that way either.

Pidgey, 

Far as high-school is concerned, I am deeply sorry I ever went at all, it was infinitely and positively worse than being merely a total absolute waste of time and self and mind, it was completely mind and spirit eroding nonsense from start to finish.

Grammar school was the same, if not possibly worse.


I learned absolutely nothing from either, other than how to be shut off and neurotic, and depressed and to appreciate the ubiquity of utter garbage being presented as 'information' or method.


The average 'Civil War' Southern Soldier-teenager had a wider, deeper more cogent Literacy, Symbol Literacy, and all round cultural facility than most post graduate students do now, and, had better vocabularys. And the most 'education' these kids had, was a few Spring or Autum Hours in one room Schoolhouses, or learning things on the Farm and at home in ambient exposure.

I do not recall for that matter that the inventors of the variour original or successive Type Writers themselves ever even attended a 'high school'...and I will assume they did not.

The first Manuscripts for Book publication ever written on the Typewriter were by Samuel Clemmens ( Mark Twain ), and John Newborough ( sp?) and neither of these men ever went to any 'high school' either...

...sigh...

If anyone wishes to explore the enemys of Civilization, of Sanity, and mental clearity, self posession, sense, civic responsibility, self respect, so called 'schools' of any mechanized 'state' are one nice place to begin...


Oye...


Anyway...

Don't get me started!


Lol...

Phil
l v


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Where are all these sick birds coming from?

At certain times my ferals get hit hard with canker. I started using this Global Multi Mix again, so far so good.

It seemed to work well is the past. 

Just an idea.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> You kinda' gotta' sorta' wonder if there's some other component to this. In some ways, it kinda' reminds one of pox as well (which I've never seen with my own eyes, knock on wood), at least some of the pictures. That little yellow bulge out the side of that one's eye (just forward). Anybody think that's part of this? Some of the other stuff inside has been reminiscent of a wet pox.
> 
> Pidgey




I could not see the details very well with the images...


Some larger or more focussed images would help.


Chlamydia can make for some odd and 'wet' Beak-Nares conditions...but regardless, if a Viris or an especially contageous Organism is suspected, Moxie would do well to make sure she has some sort of Quarenteen and basic safety-practices to discipline the efforts of careing for these various Birds, while protecting them from eachother's illnesses/contageons, and, prudently protecting herself from them, also, of course.


Various severe Canker-Beaks I have seen, did tend to be inocently 'wet'-ish in their way, and once the infection was abating with Medicines, the wet-ish aspect would go away and things would dry out in their appearance.

This of course as far as contageon is concerned, only requires the Bird to be in their own Cage, and that no one else may drink their Water or eat their in cage Seeds...and that opne washes one's Hands after tube feeding them or handleing them...and that one uses tube-feeding 'tubes' which are only for 'that' Bird and which get reasonable steralized between uses, and or thoroughly steralizes the impliments between uses if one is to use the impliments for other Birds.





"Berimax" would be the ideal systemic for these, especially when combined with successive topical applications of a 'zole' with DMSO, useing a small Water Color Brusk ort he likes to apply to the effected area.


If I can obtain a source for some Berimax I intend to buy a few Cases of it.

I'd be glad to share, if I can get some.


I keep kicking myself for not buying a Case of it back when, I just took for granted it would be available when I needed more.


Best of wishes...


Phil
Las V


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

KIPPY said:


> Where are all these sick birds coming from?
> 
> At certain times my ferals get hit hard with canker. I started using this Global Multi Mix again, so far so good.
> 
> ...


I think she gets these birds from some place nearby like a park or town-square kind of place. I don't think they're her backyard birds so I don't think she has any control on what water they drink. If she were going to have to go that route, she'd have to do the medicated feed thing and try to dose it so that they'd get enough in the one feeding per day. She'd also need a powder-type canker medication because all she's got is about 17 Flagyl pills or so.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, you know what, it was july '07, as in july 2007! i just made the file, and Pidgey figured it out for me since i forgot.
i'm gonna get a list, and start a new thread for this guy tomorrow when i get home, i'm going to bed...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

How many birds are you currently caring for, Moxie?

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> it kinda' reminds one of pox as well (which I've never seen with my own eyes, knock on wood), at least some of the pictures.


It looks like pox to me too, and I have seen it with mine own eyes. It is the combination of pox and canker that I have seen damage the beak.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

HI Moxie,
How is the drunk acting bird doing? Have the symptoms subsided any?
We haven't heard about that one in a while.
It seems that Pidgey was sending you some meds, if I remember correctly, have they arrived?
I'm still waiting for some call backs regarding avian vets/rehabbers.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> It looks like pox to me too, and I have seen it with mine own eyes. It is the combination of pox and canker that I have seen damage the beak.
> 
> Cynthia


That's what I was wondering. That said, I've got to be out for quite awhile today and would appreciate any input that you can give to Moxie on that because short of just telling her to give 'em Baytril, Flagyl and supportive care, I have no idea what else to do for those two birds. I just can't find it in me to not give them some kind of chance, that's just my way and about all Moxie can depend on her local resources to do is put birds down (hopefully mercifully) so far to this point.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Charis said:


> HI Moxie,
> How is the drunk acting bird doing? Have the symptoms subsided any?
> We haven't heard about that one in a while.
> It seems that Pidgey was sending you some meds, if I remember correctly, have they arrived?
> I'm still waiting for some call backs regarding avian vets/rehabbers.


Oh, I just ordered that stuff from Vita King yesterday and the ?UPS? truck had already been and gone that day. Shipping from Indiana will probably take into early next week. I think she's got enough stuff to carry her that far but if there's any other stuff that anyone else has suggestions on getting and using that I didn't list, feel free to jump in.

I got her some more KayTee, big feeding syringes and tubes yesterday and will have to find time today later to get them sent. We've got one post office that works real late here and I'll probably go that route. That should mean that that stuff will arrive later next week, probably early-to-middle.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I suspect the "drunk" bird had an infection from injury as well as concussion. Flushing plus a combination of Clavamox/Augmentin and Synulox would normally contain the infection.

I find Spartrix is best for the initial treatment of canker, sometimes that reduces the nodules overnight. I gave the last case that I thought was a gonner a crushed spartrix , I had found no way through to the crop and hoped the spartrix would get through somehow, The next morning half the canker had gone. Maryco had the same experience. For bad cases I combine Metronidazole (Flagyl) and spartrix.

Julie (Turkey) had a really dreadful case of pox. I will e-mail her for supprt.

Cynthia


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

*Trying to help*

I'm trying to follow the posts but it's very difficult when things are being discussed other then the bird. 

I'm not sure what's been done for the bird, but I saw the pictures. Poor baby. Definitely put diluted betadine on his outter beak lesions. Dab it on, don't poor it on because you want to prevent it from going in the mouth. 

I see you have pills of metronidazole. (I don't know the strength of each pill that you have) I would, depending on how much you are giving, crush some of the pill up and add it to water and drip that in the beak on his inner lesions. 

Please be very careful when handling his beak. You could dislodge his beak. 

Please let us know how this bird is doing. I see talk of him staggering. What color and consistancy is his droppings? Is he able to drink or eat?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, not sure what you meant in the pm, but yes, I'm very familiar w/Boston having been born there and raised in that area. Boston ranks in the
top ten cities for public transportation accross the nation. You might be interested to know that the same site that lists Boston as the seventh in the 
nation for the best public transportation lists Portland as #1.

On strains of canker, there is a finite number of strains of canker that is determined by the characteristics of the presenting symptoms and aggressiveness of the strain. The initial development of the concept of 
strains sprang from the clinical observations of the progression of the illness.
Of course, technology has changed, but the initial concept of identification
by symptomatic display and progression of the disease is still the same.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You can also use straight hydrogen peroxide on pox lesions. For cleaning,
1/2 cup of bleach to a gallon of water will actually kill any germs(Dr. Brian Speers), be sure and wash your hands before and after handling, it's highly contagious when touching weeping lesions, body fluids/waste in general.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, the thread is confusing. There is the original bird that the thread is about that staggered. It is well-fleshed and in good shape except for the chest wound under the wing which has not been explored. That bird's over the initial shock and is doing better.

There are also two other birds found recently (within the last two or three days) that both have some pretty miserable looking beaks for which there are picture links earlier. They probably need their own threads but Moxie hasn't had the time to do that yet as her schedule is very hectic (it's not an 8-to-5 job).

The bird with the worst beak (the upper beak problem) looked like he might have had enough debris and swelling to prevent giving rehydration, meds or food. However, it looks worse from the side and she was able to start the medication and support activities without having to clear any significant debris. She feels the beak is getting wobbly, though, so the chances of him losing it are pretty high.

The little guy with the bad lower beak had a piece fall off including the keratinous tip of the lower beak and some tissue. Jury's still out on that one.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

FP, Boston may be ranked as #7, but i doubt it is. it is the oldest train in America, and breaks down all the time. granted, there are worse, where there isnt ANY trains to break down.
i dont doubt at all that Portland is #1, but why would i be surprised at that?
ok, everyone, i'm sorry i confused things. i am starting a new thread for the canker bird that was pictured, and this will continue as the "drunk" bird thread. i'm sorry to confuse anyone.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I know that I got around very well there and,like here in the SF area, 
one has to use many modes of the public transportation system to go to 
some areas, but one can, none the less reach pretty far w/the public transportation system in both areas. 

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Moxie,
When you have a minute, could you post a picture of the puncture wound you found on the 'drunk' pij?
Could you also give us an update on his progress.

Thanks.

Cindy


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## Pixie (Sep 26, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> I find Spartrix is best for the initial treatment of canker, sometimes that reduces the nodules overnight. I gave the last case that I thought was a gonner a crushed spartrix , I had found no way through to the crop and hoped the spartrix would get through somehow, The next morning half the canker had gone. Maryco had the same experience. For bad cases I combine Metronidazole (Flagyl) and spartrix.
> 
> Cynthia


Intrestingly I too have had a similar experience using carnidazole (spartrix) for Trichomoniasis. I gave it to a pigeon with a very bad case and in two days he was healing amazingly well. This is a bird I didnt think would make it. Since that time, several years ago, that is all I use. That said, metronidazole (Flagyl) can be good also as it has he added benefit of being an antibiotic, so it will take care of any secondary bacterial infections that may be lingering.. 


I have dealt with many cases of pox in all different species. It definitely looks like pox to me as well. I would not reccomend pulling off pox lesions as they bleed a ton, and can then cause bacterial infection.Since pox is a virus there is not much that can be done, except supportive treatment (fluids, tube feeding ect...) but it is EXTREMELY contagious. Some evidence suggests that once a bird survives it ( and I have many that have, depending on strain) it continues to shed it in the feces for remainder of it;s life. For this reason, many rehabbers euth the infected birds to protect the population at large. I am NOT suggesting this, just sharing some info...

Someone mentioned the "drunk " pigeon has a hole in the crop.Has that been taken care of ? I just wanted to share that what I do is use crazy glue gel for crop tears and holes. I used to spend lots of money on surgical glues then my vet suggested I use plain old crazy glue. he said it is the exact same thing except it is not sterile.Just make certain there is no infection first, then dab the crazy glue (gel kind) on the OUTSIDE edges of skin and hold together (dont glue fingers..lol..).

Works amazing...

~ Pixie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixie said:


> ........ I would not reccomend pulling of pox lesions as they bleed a ton, and can then cause bacterial infection.Since pox is a virus there is not much that can be done, except supportive treatment (fluids, tube feeding ect...) but it is EXTREMELY contagious. .....
> 
> 
> ~ Pixie


Yes, in fact pulling or picking at the lesions is a good way to spread the
virus. If the lesions are in a non-sensitive area, non-diluted Hydrogen Peroxide
can be applied to keep clean and dry them out. The feathers immediately around any lesions or boils should be plucked to help keep the area clean and
contain the possibility of spreading through weeping. Body fluids are highly 
contagious and hands should be washed and dishes cleaned separately. Again, 1/2 cup of bleach to a gallon of water is a good disinfectant and will
kill the virus shed into the environment.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i'm sorry to confuse, this thread is for the "drunk" pigeon, and i got it off track, sorry. the POX?CANKER pijjie is in thread entitled bad canker, pox, something along those lines.
i will post a pic, ASAP, but i have to leave tomorrow, wont be back till sunday afternoon, so i'll try to get one up in the morning, but if i dont, i'm real sorry.
umm, this guy, the drunk" acting bird, isnt acting drunk at all anymore. he doesnt hav a hole in crop, he has a hole, more a puncture wound, under wing, closer to back than tummy, being treated with baytril, and diluted iodine on wound. the wound was scabbed over, and when plucking feathers, it was pulled off, since has scabbed over, when the scab pulled off, a LITTLE brown flesh came with, and it seemed red/pink flesh underneath. may have to debride further??
anyways, i'll post pic before i do anything, just meds and supportive care for now. the puncture is about, half a nickel or close to dime size.
be back sunday, i cant get out of work or i would, i tried already.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moxie,



Somehting else which occured to me to mention...

With Canker Birds/Pigeons, especially if they have it bad, their poops/urates tend to stick to the short Feathers around their Vent, and can soon clog things up there...and this needs to be washed clean, and sometimes daily.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Well, we know that the organism (and let's face it--this sure doesn't look like the standard presentation) comes in as many strains as there are stars in the night sky over the North Pole in our winter. This one seems to be particularly cruel. Moxie said there are more that she hasn't been able to catch that are just about as bad. Many of them will be in a few days, I expect.
> 
> Pidgey




Actually, it comes in about 2 dozen strains, give or take a few, since I recently read the following:

http://www.albertaclassic.net/trichomonas/trichomonas.php#

.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

http://www.albertaclassic.net/tricho...ichomonas.php#

Interesting, Thank you for the link.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I don't think there's a known answer to the question, globally. That reference seems to be referring more to within the racing community:

"There may be as many as 2 dozen strains of this organism infecting our racing pigeons..."

It's not the world's most stable organism, genetically speaking.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, I don't think there's a known answer to the question, globally. That reference seems to be referring more to within the racing community:
> 
> "There may be as many as 2 dozen strains of this organism infecting our racing pigeons..."
> 
> ...


Actually, there is an accepted answer that doesn't involve the same count
as all the stars in the sky. 

In my recent personal communications w/Dr. Richard Kocan, he told me that 
the study and identification of the strains of Trichomonas was developed 
by growing isolates of a single organism in a petry dish and then infecting
a dove or pigeon w/the same culture. 
The work that was done in that field included an area of study that 
Dr. Kocan developed whereby a pigeon was injected w/the 
plasma from another pigeon with only a mild strain
of Trichomonas and the same pigeon developed immunity from more virulent strains.

From this link:

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/m-1123601102/s-60/


"Much more practically, Dr Kocan was also able to demonstrate 
that previously infected pigeons that had been treated with the 
formerly used anti-canker drug Enheptin, were free of the 
organism for as long as 16 months, yet remained 
immune to infection when they were inoculated with deadly strains."

Dr. Kocan also told me that he was aware of no new developments in the
area of identifying the strains of Trichomonas. Again, at this point, the
strains of Trichomonas are identified by symptomatic virulence that was
documented in the research done by Stabler, Kocan and a few others.
There may be a few more strains, or one might say approximately to cover
any oversight, but the field itself of naming strains hasn't exploded to include
a count equaling the myriads of stars in the sky.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp - did Dr. Kocan say what happened to the pigeons used in his clinical trials? On the link provided, seems that most of the pigeons that were injected with canker strains (by Dr. Stabler) in those trials died. 

It is a pity any live pigeons have to be sacrificed in clinical trials.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, that is sick, i dont think we have a right to "study" anything when a life is involved.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Maggie, no he didn't say what happened to all of the pigeons in the studies. Though I seem to recall Dr. Chalmers using some of his own pigeons as study
models. I agree, it seems so cold to use live pigeons to find medical answers, but I think the mentality behind it is that many, many more are saved than
sacrificed to science. I don't think I would be able to use any of mine in a 
"sacrifice to science", yet I know that mine live in great part because others
before have at one point in time or another, been part of a study. It is an unfortunate part of the scientific/medical community's contribution, yet when
there is a breakthrough, they are 'hailed'. I do think they are also vigilant in their efforts not to lose
their study groups as more comprehensive information for future medical treatments of the disease
depend on this.

I do know that as a result of the work done by Stabler, Kocan, and others, they were able to determine that either exposure or injection of plasma infected w/a milder strain acted as an inoculation against the more virulent Trichomonas strains. Pigeons and doves in this category escaped succumbing to death as a result. This prompted a different approach to dealing w/Trichomonas in the Pigeon/Dove breeding communities.

fp


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

*Pox subject*

On the subject of Pox:

My vet would put down any pigeon he found with Pox. The staff would flinch and loudly say do you know what this bird has?!?! 

It seems pointless to explain to them that it is possible to have life after Pox, but I did tell them. 

This summer three of my younger rescued birds have developed Pox. (Not vaccinated) Did they get it because of living with my pigeons who previously had Pox? Or did they get it because of the many mosquitoes out there, which can carry it from an outside source? Who knows. It has been mild cases with minimal care needed. Clean environment, fresh water, maybe that's why they haven't developed a secondary infection of canker like they ferals that have been rescued here. 

Julie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Julie, I had a similar experience in that Diesel caught it while living here from
a fly. He got wet/dry and canker but not of a virulence that was life threatening per se. I did augment w/hand feeding for a time but there
were birds in the feral flock that were done in by it. 

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I do know that as a result of the work done by Stabler, Kocan, and others, they were able to determine that either exposure or injection of plasma infected w/a milder strain acted as an inoculation against the more virulent Trichomonas strains. Pigeons and Doves in this category escaped succumbing to death as a result. This prompted a different approach to dealing w/Trichomonas in the Pigeon/Dove breeding communities.
> 
> fp



Hi fp,



This sounds promising anyway...since it is practical, straightforward, and would not be especially hard to do, if one had the correct vital materials to innoculate with, of course.

And really, this would not be beyond the possibility of anyone who had some time and presence of mind and patience, and some basic Lab accoutremon, to work out and do independantly even, if such innoculations were not available commercially.



There is no reason why anyone who has a Medical background could NOT have worked out several practical innoculation schemes for Canker, any time say since the 1890s...so what the heck are these guys doing then?

Why have they not just gotten off the dime and done it?


Or maybe "now" they or he or someone, is?


I read - or at least skimmed - quite a few 'famous Vet' articles about Canker, on the 'Pigeonnetwork' site and some others, and was surprised to find that except for Dr. Reicher of Holland, and Dr. Wim of South Africa, none of these Vets mentioned anything in any way ever about anything BUT the usual old conventional meds and lots of blahhh-blahhh-blahhh. Nothing of any novel understanding, no novel approach, no real tests to speak of, no new insight, no practical regimens, no consideration of potential efficay or the how so of it, of any Botanical extracts, no nothing ever about dealing with Infant Birds or the frail or anything really but abstract blahhh-blahhh-blahhh...nor even any particular insight, and nothing to suggest they personally had even ever treated let alone cared for or convelesed any Birds at all.

They almost entirely just rehash old wan info...


Very VERY few Vets so far as I know ( has anyone ever met one who has?) have ever been a care giver ONCE for that matter, or ever raise anhy Baby Bird, let alone, to do so to release...so always, one ( or this one anyway, ) senses the enormous 'gaps' of their overall outlook and understandings - they deal with intellectual abstractions on a stainless steel table for $185.00 for two or thtree or four minutes...and even with these transient presentations, they seem to have no elaborations to note or mention, and nothing later to integrate into any overall edifications for others.


No praxis...


This reminds me of those Vets who deal with Race Horces, and they would NEVER think to just let the Horse graze some Clover or BlackBerrys or something.


Innoculation is certainly a very old and practical and well known means of initiating or educating an intended and particular immunity or small range of immunity, so at least so far as that goes, I think it would present a very promising means of aiding those Birds who could be innoculated.

It does nothing however, for those Birds who are not available for recieving innoculations.

Knowledge of practical Innoculations for initiating/educating an immunity, is only about 250 years old in it's crudest forms, if not in fact kn own to the Ancients, so I guess this guy as so many others is indeed "up" on their Craft.


Oddly? - the more I have read form various pre-eminent Pigeon Vets, the less I feel inclined to like or respect any of them.

Aside from Dr. Reicher, who as far as I know I do like very much, and also a Dr. Wim, of South Africa...these people at least seem able TO think.



I'd like to see these guys pull one ( "1" ) actual real immediate sick Bird 'through' and THEN talk about all this pontificating stuff in real terms, "then".

Overall, I think these Vets are lazy, unimaginative, complaisent, have high intellectual ability governed by relitively dim wits.


Typical PHDs types, who can not change a 'Spark Plug' but they will 'explain' the "Universe" so long as someone pays them for the lecture fees.

...sigh...


In good will, and good humor, and earnest, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> There is no reason why anyone who has a Medical background could NOT have worked out several practical innoculation schemes for Canker, any time say since the 1890s...so what the heck are these guys doing then?
> 
> ...


*No prob.... fp*


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

http://www.msnusers.com/pigeoninjury/shoebox.msnw?Page=Last

the last 2 pics are his puncture wound. it is smaller, and healing. the brown flesh is gone, it is now pink/red and i am letting the hole heal from here on out.
the puncture wound doesnt track in far, maybe 1/4 inch TOWARDS his spine, right under skin, not deeper. doesnt feel like anything in there. not acting drunk at all anymore.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moxie, 



Looks like the injury there is healing nicely...there is no Necrotic 'core' or anything? and no swelling to speak of..? Everything nice and 'pink'...?


Very glad to hear he is done with the 'drunk' part...!


How are the poops? Is he eating on his own pretty well?

Is he on any meds presently?



Phil
l v


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Things are looking good for the pigeon with the hole. His cere is still a little darker then a healthy pigeon. 

I haven't seen the post about the pox pigeon. I hope he's doing well.

Julie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, you've pulled the feathers around the 'wound', this is good and
will help to keep it clean. Clean it does look and shallow enough that
it should heal w/out issue if only an issue of a wound. Julie is correct
that the cere still doesn't look to be the coloring of a healthy bird.
If you have the room, R&R for the pidge and a chance to observe
for you. Thanks for the update.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

turkey said:


> *I haven't seen the post about the pox pigeon*. I hope he's doing well.
> 
> Julie


Hey Julie,
Moxie started a new thread on the canker/pox pij. 
Here's the link to the thread, in the event you missed it. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=21920

Good to see you. Hope things are going well.  

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i have him on baytril, one more day of that. he's eating fine, poops are good, and all around seems fine. what could the discoloration of the cere mean?


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

*Cere color*

The cere not being perfect white means that he's not in perfect health. It can mean so many things. Since he was recently injured and walking in a stagger that could be the reason for his cere not being a good white. I would think that since he's been on Baytril, the wound is healing and he's been eating good healthy pigeon seed with fresh water then his cere color should start improving. Unless there is something else there that you don't know about. Have you noticed the cere getting more white yet? 

Truthfully I don't know how long it takes for a cere to turn white after illness. I don't recall it taking a long time. 

Julie


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