# Hen or Cock? (photo)



## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

This is the last bird in my loft that I haven't figured out the sex. I am leaning towards hen. 

I have 5 of these birds and they all look just like that. Basically clones of each other. Red Bars and Bright Red and Yellow eyes. Same strain, from the same fliers loft. They are small to medium in size. Roosen/Fabry/Van Riel.

Any thoughts based on a picture?


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Looks like a cock to me, but hard to tell from a picture.


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm gonna say Hen


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

It will be fun to see how many cock votes vs. hen votes you get


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

SouthTown Racers said:


> It will be fun to see how many cock votes vs. hen votes you get


Yeah, it will. I seriously change my mind on this one every day. Keep hoping it will pair up with another so I can see who is sitting on eggs at what time of day.


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## Homer3109 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hen. I dont see any ink spots/ black spots on tail or wings


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

yes hen she doesnt have a flecking


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

i say hen 95% sure


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## Paragon Loft (Jun 27, 2009)

i go with hen


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## HmoobH8wj (Apr 7, 2011)

yes hen she doesnt have a flecking


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## billgarb (Aug 26, 2011)

Hen, based on head shape.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

billgarb said:


> Hen, based on head shape.


What year is the bird? The head shape made me think it was a young cock.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

It's a 2011 bird.


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

Looks like a hen,but I have been wrong before with one of my birds.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

You cannot say its a hen just because it does not have flecking, It could be **** for red or it could have such a minute amount of flecking that we cannot see it in the pic

My guess is cock. do you know the parents colours?


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I think its a cock. But I had a cock in my hen section, didn't realize it was a cock till he started driving the hens!!!!!!

Listen, I love me my Fabrys and Van Riels, tell me how this blood does for you!!!!!


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Just another thing I learned from this forum. I don't pay much attention to color so I had to do some research to understand the "Flecking" comments. Interesting but I'm still guessing Cock. Thats my guess and I'm sticking to it!


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## Jamax99 (Dec 17, 2011)

I have acouple of silvers and the cocks all have little blacks specs on wings , hens don't.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jamax99 said:


> I have acouple of silvers and the cocks all have little blacks specs on wings , hens don't.


You are right Hens don't but sometimes cocks don't either, Or sometimes cocks have one or two small flecks in the tail. If a cock is two dose, **** for red then they do not show any flecking at all.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I think cock because the flat top of the head between the eyes. Eather way nice pigeon.
Good luck man.


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## PigeonX (Oct 17, 2010)

I say Cock bird. Looks kind of masculine to me...


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## rasheed.rubeena (Dec 29, 2011)

I think it is a cock but you should observe how i acts the cooing and all


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## jaelyn loft (Oct 25, 2011)

APF_LOFT said:


> yes hen she doesnt have a flecking


 i have to agree ... hen no black flecking mealy bars always have flecking


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Looks like a cock to me....Alamo


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I would put it with a hen and see if it starts to strut..or put it with a cock and throw in a known hen and see if they fight. (not a always accurate but it does work)


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I think I do see flecking in the flight feathers, so that would automatically make it a cock. Head shape also makes me think a cock. I would ask the 'toe theory' question, but last time I tried to explain it nobody could understand me, haha.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

jaelyn loft said:


> i have to agree ... hen no black flecking mealy bars always have flecking


Mealey bar cocks do NOT always have black flecking, If they are pure red they will NOT have black flecking. Or sometimes it is not visible in a photo. Sorry for the capitals but its a fact and the lack of flecking shoud not make you guys automatically think its a hen.



Matt Bell said:


> I think I do see flecking in the flight feathers, so that would automatically make it a cock. Head shape also makes me think a cock. I would ask the 'toe theory' question, but last time I tried to explain it nobody could understand me, haha.


Your right, If there is blue/black flecking it is definetly a cock. I can't see it myself, The bird does look like a cock to me too. Whats the toe Theory? lol


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Everyone NZ Pigeon is right. Flecks mean its a cock *carrying blue*. If it didn't carry blue and all you had was a family of ash reds then no cocks would have flecks. So although flecks do mean cock it doesn't mean no flecks means hen.

That being said that might be a fleck under the tail there on the second primary flight.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks Logan.


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## OldStrain (Jan 25, 2011)

Have you handled the Bird to check the vent stucture. Very tight vent should be a cockbird. Looks like a cockbird to me.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

the vent theory is not always right. i have this hen that have a very tight vent even tighter than cock and i always handled cock that have loose vent.

they answer hen because they have genetic background


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## bigmalley (Dec 6, 2011)

what is this flecking on cocks? ive never heard of that please elaborate??


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## Freebird loft (Jul 17, 2009)

APF_LOFT said:


> the vent theory is not always right. i have this hen that have a very tight vent even tighter than cock and i always handled cock that have loose vent.
> 
> they answer hen because they have genetic background


I agree, hens that are in form usually have tight vents unless they're getting ready to lay an egg. Fat cocks will have loose vents also, just no eggs


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

bigmalley said:


> what is this flecking on cocks? ive never heard of that please elaborate??


A cocbird pigeon carries two base colours, Usually either blue or red but sometimes brown although this is rare

If an ash red pigeon carries blue it shows in the form of dark flecking


Check out Beckys you tube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ7H5EiJ3s&list=UUFmlCmGVgFhBp8w-_TuLPpw&index=17&feature=plcp


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

APF_LOFT said:


> yes hen she doesnt have a flecking





HmoobH8wj said:


> yes hen she doesnt have a flecking


HmoobHwj, This is the second thread i Have noticed you just copy and past someone else response. Try come up with your own posts aye?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Watch Becky's video if you want many examples but to keep it simple like NZ said cockbirds can carry two colors. Ash red (mealy) is dominant to blue. So if you breed an blue cock to an ash red hen you will have a ash red cock which also has the genes for blue. For some unknown reason the blue is able to leak through the feathers in area. These are most often little flecks, some may be pretty large and even make most of a feather blue. Hens can only be one color so there is no way a hen could be ash red and have the genes for blue.

Therefore, if you see a bird which is ash red and is split for (carrying) blue it must be a cock. The flecks can vary in amount so you may not see any at all. The most important thing to remember is if you bred ash red to ash red then no matter what atleast some (if not all) cocks will have two genes for ash red therefore will never show any flecking.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

Since I sparked some serious debate....

Hopefully it's not raining or snowing when I get off work tonight. I'll find that bird and take a little video. We'll settle it.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Taking another photo won't settle anything. All it will settle is whether it has flecking or not. I don't want to sound arrogant but anyone who tries to debate what me and logan have pointed out with regards to flecking is fighting an uphill battle as it is a fact that not all red cocks will have flecking. Do you know what the parents were?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Mealey bar cocks do NOT always have black flecking, If they are pure red they will NOT have black flecking. Or sometimes it is not visible in a photo. Sorry for the capitals but its a fact and the lack of flecking shoud not make you guys automatically think its a hen.
> 
> 
> 
> Your right, If there is blue/black flecking it is definetly a cock. I can't see it myself, The bird does look like a cock to me too. Whats the toe Theory? lol


The toe theory goes like this...as we all know pigeons have 4 toes on each foot, three in front and 1 in the back. if you hold the 3 in front together, the middle toe is obviously the longest. If you compare the 2 side toes, the toe theory states that if they are of the same length the bird is a hen and if one is longer than the other it is a cock bird. I tried this on birds that I already knew the sex and found that is was pretty accurate though it did get a few wrong. I would say it was about 90% accurate.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have 100 birds due for a powder, I might test it when I have them in hand and let you know


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have 100 birds due for a powder, I might test it when I have them in hand and let you know


That sounds like a good experiment, I will be interested to see if it works as well on your birds as it did mine.


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## jaelyn loft (Oct 25, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Mealey bar cocks do NOT always have black flecking, If they are pure red they will NOT have black flecking. Or sometimes it is not visible in a photo. Sorry for the capitals but its a fact and the lack of flecking shoud not make you guys automatically think its a hen.
> 
> 
> 
> Your right, If there is blue/black flecking it is definetly a cock. I can't see it myself, The bird does look like a cock to me too. Whats the toe Theory? lol


the capital letters were SCARY lol but thank you i was not aware of that


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

jaelyn loft said:


> the capital letters were SCARY lol but thank you i was not aware of that


Lol, It was the third time I had to say it and people seemed to be ignoring the facts. I think Print Tippler picked up on my frustration, there are a lot of mysterys with pigeons but somethings are fact. I hate mystery so I grasp the facts with both hands, Keeps me sane (ish)


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

I would have to say Hen.


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## jaelyn loft (Oct 25, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Lol, It was the third time I had to say it and people seemed to be ignoring the facts. I think Print Tippler picked up on my frustration, there are a lot of mysterys with pigeons but somethings are fact. I hate mystery so I grasp the facts with both hands, Keeps me sane (ish)


good way to look at things


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Didn't mean to pick on your post either. It was just there at the right/wrong time lol


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## jaelyn loft (Oct 25, 2011)

no offense taken the capital letters gave me a good laugh lol and its always good to p/u some new info


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

Not sure what this will add to the equation but there is a very small amount of flecking in the tail and on the wings. 
The father of this pigeon was a Red Bar er Silver er whatever you call them. Mother was a Blue Bar WF. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oV4PlvZM1w


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

That is a cock 

I have always loved those hvr eyes


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes that is flecking which means its split for blue. Since cocks carry two genes for color and hens only one. Therefore it must be a cock since two colors can be seen. The point is sometimes ash red cocks can carry two colors and both be ash red, making no flecking show up but still making it a cock.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yup its a cock, I suspected the flecks may be hidden.


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## flewthecoupe (Mar 28, 2005)

I would guess cock.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Since most of my birds are Reds & Red Checks,I have Cocks with Black specks,and some have very large black streaks in their primary flights,which have gotten bigger and bigger as they got older....I also have Red cocks with NO black/brown specks...Ofcourse,all my Red hens have NO specks also...It always amazed me though,as some RC`s cocks got older,the BLACK specks/markings got alot bigger etc.....Alamo


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

flewthecoupe said:


> I would guess cock.


It is a cock.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> It is a cock.



He has to be... because he is now called "The Red Baron". What kind of name would that be for a hen?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

12 Volt Man said:


> He has to be... because he is now called "The Red Baron". What kind of name would that be for a hen?


Lol A great name if she was infertile


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