# Loss of Weight, Vomiting, Bloated Crop, Leaning Up/Backwards



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

She made it through a bad case of PMV; has been free of symptoms for a few years. About a week ago, I found her on the floor being attacked by another pigeon barely able to fly. First I thought that her PMV symptoms came back but she's been vomiting has bloated crop which sticks out while her head falls back as you see in the photo. So I think there is something else going on, perhaps Adenovirus and/or E-Coli. She is very thin, her droppings are white liquid and and she's been vomiting green fluid. Any thoughts? I am seeking advice afraid she is going down fast. Thank you!


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh, thats so awful There's two possibilities here; the first is the saddest- her body may be shutting down already and she is showing the normal signs of dying. In that case, she would throw up and flip out physically (ie have stroke-like symptoms) if you try to feed her, because her body can't take it any more.

The second possibility is she's having a temporary relapse of PMV symptoms due to the stress of illness and being attacked (or another illness like you mentioned, like ecoli, canker, worms, something viral etc).

So...its best to be positive and try to help. I would try to hand feed her a small amount, and see if she can keep it down. If she does, then try again in hour.

What do you have for hand feeding there?


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The symptoms you describe could certainly be due to this Adenovirus Type 2 and E.Coli. I have never seen it in any of our ex-PMV birds, but I can well imagine that the stress could cause some relapse of nervous symptoms.

The only treatable element would be the coli, with (for example) Baytril or Lincospectin, but unfortunately the prognosis is never too good if it is that.


----------



## bdpigeons (Feb 4, 2012)

If you want to save the bird you should give Avio typhoid cure asap. Are you in NYC there are few Pigeon supplies store in NY or order from online. For now you are going to hand feed few times a day too much will cause her throw up more.


----------



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I see you are in NYC. Do you have an avian vet you can take her to? 

Dr. Anthony Pilny works Tue through Saturday and Dr. Cynthia Brown works on Sunday - both are at the Center for Avian and Exotic Medicine at Columbus Avenue and W 87th Street. Both have lots of experience with pigeons and you can get an appointment usually for the next day. But if seeing a vet isn't an option for you, you could take her just next door to the Wild Bird Fund at Animal General (558 Columbus Avenue) where they rehab pigeons almost exclusively. It's by donation, - no one is turned away. I know she's not a feral, but a pet, but if you cannot afford to see a vet, it might be your best option. You can say she's a feral that you have a relationship with so you know how to care for pigeons and they will be happy to let you continue to take care of her, but can run a few basic tests, give you medications and what I find has had an immediate good effect on pigeons in all sorts of conditions - a vitamin B injection to boost the immune system. There is a number to call (646-306-2862) where you can only leave a message and they call you back, but with the bird's situation sounding as grave as it is - I think you can just show up and see what they can do for her.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Bella F, I've been crop feeding her Exact formula.

Bdpigeons, I am in NYC but not aware of any Pigeon supply store here. If you could please post some info about these stores, I'd appreciate it very much.

Nycpigeonlady, thank you, I've seen Dr. Pilny numerous time and visited, WBF likewise. I have a rehabilitator's license, treat a lot of birds and been trying on my own unless I feel that the vet or WBF can definitely help. If she is still alive, I may take a train up there tomorrow and try to get some different medication for her. I've been giving her 5 in 1 formula (Tony's Treasure Tablets) I got from Jedds which may not be the best thing.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> I've been giving her 5 in 1 formula (Tony's Treasure Tablets) I got from Jedds which may not be the best thing.


I just googled the ingredients of the Vetafarm Tablets you're giving. They actually look pretty good to me for use in a pinch- Norfloxacin (a close relative of Baytril & ciprofloxacin probably), Ronidazole, Doxycycline, Diclazuril. 

Does the jar for the tablets have any information about the quantities of these ingredients? 

Glad to hear she's in competent hands and she's still alive!


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ante..I googled Tony's Treasure Tablets and they contain 20mg praziquantel and oxfendazole. Oxfendazole is a kin to fenbendazole, which has been proven to be very toxic to pigeon and doves.Personally, I would discontinue the Tony's Treasure ASAP. 
I don't know how much of each medicine is in the 5 in 1 formula but often they don't contain enough of anyone medicine for a cure.
Your little pigeon looks really ill. Did the symptoms begin prior to the Tony's Treasure?
A tip ...a drop of pep to gismo a few minutes before feeding will often stop vomiting.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17089995


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I totally agree with Charis about avoiding oxfendazole.

But the link on Jedd's Pigeon's supply to Tony's treasure tablets doesn't mention it?

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?no=850 

This is what it says:

Composition:
+ Norfloxacin - a broad spectrum antibiotic that treats bacterial diseases, including Salmonella, E.coli etc.
+ Ronidazole - same as Ronivet, for the antiprotozoal to treat trichomonas, hexamiter, giardia.
+ Diclazuril - the coccidiostat
+ Doxycycline - as a Chlamydia treatment


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This is the Tony's Treasure I found...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17089995

The one you found, Bella, doesn't say how much of each drug is in the mix. My experience with the 3 in 1, 4 one, one others is that the concentration is so small it doesn't do a thing but cause resistance to the drugs.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah, me too Charis. Confusing that there are two products called the same thing.

I suppose the jar that ante bozanich has should state the ingredients and quantities of each ingredient. I wouldn't personally have an issue with increasing the dose of the tablets to match the correct dose for teh antibiotics, if that was all that was in them. But with the addition of Diclazuril I have some doubts that the dose could be raised too much, since coccidastat type meds can cause regurgitation . I'm curious to know the exact composition of the drug for sure .


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry, there is no composition of the drug on the bottle at all. I tried TMS for several days; started with 5 in 1 only couple of days ago. I have a lot of Cipro 50 mg/ml I got from a pharmacy.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> Sorry, there is no composition of the drug on the bottle at all. I tried TMS for several days; started with 5 in 1 only couple of days ago. I have a lot of Cipro 50 mg/ml I got from a pharmacy.


It sounds much more likely to be that product Charis found, as the Vetafarm product `Tony's treasure' at Jedd's has all the info on the jar (judging by the picture at Jedd's web site).

Just wondering why you discontinued the TMS , out of curiosity really? Was she not responding? You can use the Cipro - off the top of my head its dosage rate is 10mg per kilogram of bodyweight, but you would have to double check that.


----------



## bdpigeons (Feb 4, 2012)

Here are some of the address I have and I have been to some of them. I will be going to NYC for this weekend too. 

Brooklyn, NY
Broadway Pigeon & Pets Supplies
1622 Broadway # A, Brooklyn, NY
(718) 443-3500

Forgot the name but the address is
1421 neptune ave brooklyn ny

Queens
On Corona Ave, Maspeth near the HS forgot address
May be it's Maspeth Pet Shop 7111 Grand Ave, Maspeth, NY 11378 

Not sure about the store but I had the info: JJJ Pet's Supplies 96-06 43rd Avenue Corona, NY 11368 718-424-6747

Bronx
Pigeon club but they have supplies UNITED PIGEON ASSOCIATION
2635A ROBERTS AVE. BRONX NY 718-828-7460

Bdpigeons, I am in NYC but not aware of any Pigeon supply store here. If you could please post some info about these stores, I'd appreciate it very much.

Nycpigeonlady, thank you, I've seen Dr. Pilny numerous time and visited, WBF likewise. I have a rehabilitator's license, treat a lot of birds and been trying on my own unless I feel that the vet or WBF can definitely help. If she is still alive, I may take a train up there tomorrow and try to get some different medication for her. I've been giving her 5 in 1 formula (Tony's Treasure Tablets) I got from Jedds which may not be the best thing.[/QUOTE]


----------



## bdpigeons (Feb 4, 2012)

I really feel bad for your birds cuz I had the same problem now I am very careful but you can't never be too careful with them.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I discontinued TMS because she was not getting any better but worse after several days. Also, when she started vomiting and her crop started puffing up, I thought that she may have E-Coli/Adenovirus and TMS is not a drug of choice for E-Coli/Adenovirus as I understand it; besides in the past, I've never had much success with TMS. I've heard good things about all-in-1s. Since I didn't know with much certainty what is going on here I thought the best would be to try one of those. 10 in 1 from the Siegel, I heard is also very good. So, do you know if Cipro is recommended for E-Coli? Is it similar to Baytril? Do you think giving her Cipro on top of Tony's would be OK?


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks, Bdpigeons! I'll check these out the first chance I get.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> So, do you know if Cipro is recommended for E-Coli? Is it similar to Baytril? Do you think giving her Cipro on top of Tony's would be OK?


Thanks heaps for explaining, I was just curious to know.

Yes, Cipro is the human equivalent of Baytril...for all intents and purposes its the same drug. 

Its excellent for advanced ecoli and salmonella...I've saved a few birds this year with it when they wouldn't respond to TMS. As far as I can gather from reading etc, ecoli and salmonella become septic (in the blood) in the advanced stages, and thats why TMS doesn't work at that point (its not a drug of choice for sepsis, though it will technically treat ecoli and salmonella ). TMS is excellent though, I have saved the bulk of my birds with it, but it takes longer to start working. I also like it because on top of clearing up bacterial infections, it will clear coccidia as well, so its a milder drug compared to using a cocktail of baytril/amprolium etc.

Hope that helps, and good luck. Its so hard when there may be a virus/bacterial infection combo.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. here's thread where I got the dosage for Cipro when I treated my birds:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/cipro-what-is-the-right-dosage-per-kilo-for-avian-21751.html

Pidgey said its 5-20 mg/kg, PO, BID


----------



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Ante,

When a pigeon of mine was treated at the WBF for salmonella, they started him off with an injection of Baytril. The injectable baytril can cause necrosis of the muscle at site of injection, but it does get to work incredibly fast, so when a bird is critically ill, I guess it's a worthwhile trade off. You have probably started her by now on the oral Baytril/cipro though, so the above is probably useless information at this point.

When I was at Neptune Pigeon supply in Brooklyn last, they seemed to have only the combination meds for flock treatment, which I hear are not very effective for acute cases.

I really hope your pidgie manages to pull through.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> The injectable baytril can cause necrosis of the muscle at site of injection, but it does get to work incredibly fast, so when a bird is critically ill, I guess it's a worthwhile trade off. You have probably started her by now on the oral Baytril/cipro though, so the above is probably useless information at this point.


Eva, thanks, I think its very useful info, especially for anyone else stumbling upon this thread in the future with similar problem.

With injections, do you have to take the pigeon back every day for an injection for the duration of treatment, or is it just for the first dose to get things happening? Are they expensive?


----------



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Bella,

I have heard that with Baytril it's not optimal to give a many injections because of the muscle necrosis issue, though I have also heard of it being done. It can certainly be a life saver especially for a bird whose crop isn't passing anything. The muscle necrosis might be more of an issue for people who race pigeons and are concerned about having anything compromising their performance even slightly - I'm not sure.

In my case (Champion's actually) he was given only an initial injection and was on oral Baytril from then on. He was going down very fast and I really felt this turned things around for him incredibly quickly. I really don't have enough experience to say how he would have done on just oral Baytril without that one injection, but since Ante can get it done at the Wild Bird Fund for free (as I did), I thought I'd throw it out there. 

Several sites sell it online but with a vet's prescription for $35. 
Here is a US based poultry and pigeon site that sells it without a prescription for $70. They recommend 3 days for severe symptoms.

http://www.twincitypoultrysupplies.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=779


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

She hasn't vomited since yesterday morning. The day before yesterday, one day after I started her on a double doze of 5 in 1 tablets, I emptied her crop as much as I could extracting one large soaked pea with some green liquid. There was one popcorn seed left in there which I couldn't milk out, but she threw it up with her last vomit (yesterday morning). I also removed all seeds from her reach; only giving her about 6 ml of thin formula mix every few hours. Anyway, I don't know why she was vomiting, why she stopped or if the worst is over but, I think, this is good. I am going to continue with this course of treatment for now. She is still very thin, weak and tilting backwards which I believe is the relapse of PMV symptoms. Thank you very much for all of your advice, information and kind words. I'm treating a few other very sick pigeons at the moment. One of them has a horrible case of canker, and huge pox growths all over her beak. I may start another thread to ask about these cases.


----------



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

ante bozanich said:


> She hasn't vomited since yesterday morning.


That's very encouraging - hopefully that means she's on the mend.


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps for the update, it is very encouraging.

I agree, it can take a while to figure out the cause of the vomiting but tis so good you've managed to get it to stop- well done! I had one case of vomiting this year where I managed to get the vomiting to stop too via treating for canker and hand feeding, but the bird didn't start to thrive until I'd wormed it for tape worms. Turned out it was very badly infested with tape worms and round worms, as well as the canker which had been more obvious. But of course there are so many causes of regurgitation. You are so very brave to have milked out the seeds from the crop, well done!

What medicine is she on right now?


----------



## Hylianprincess7 (Apr 7, 2012)

bdpigeons said:


> If you want to save the bird you should give Avio typhoid cure asap. Are you in NYC there are few Pigeon supplies store in NY or order from online. For now you are going to hand feed few times a day too much will cause her throw up more.



I don't think the vomiting would be due to typhoid. I had a bird come down with it, and die from it, and he never once vomited, nor did he have bloated crop/posture problems. I've actually never heard of vomiting due to typhoid in any bird. (Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely in my eyes).

I definitely see a PMV relapse, which is normal in post PMV victims if they're stressed. I would definitely add E. Coli to the list of posibilities though.

OR, if her nervous system is out of whack, her nerves could be making her vomit bile. That still doesn't explain why she has green bile though.


----------



## Alison S (Mar 23, 2012)

Hello,

Did this pigeon recover?

I found this whilst looking for a problem our pigeon has<, you have to scroll down to beriberi; thiamine deficency and compare the picture of the pigeon there with yours, hope this helps

http://david-bender.purplecloud.net/metonline/CHO/thiamin/thiamin9.htm


----------

