# I have a pigeon that is sick and hurt



## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

I have a pigeon that was brought me yesterday. The one eye is shut and the other is open a very little. The top of the beak is straight, but the bottom part is off to the side a little. I have it on an antibiotic since yesterday, and also hand feeding it because right now it can't pick up any seeds. I do have three other rescued pigeons. One caught by a cat, one hit by a 4 wheeler, and one that was a baby that started for the road by my house. I know a little about pigeons, but this one I do need help with. I included pictures, and hope I did it right so you can what is wrong with him/her.
Mary Ann


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Mary Ann! Good to see you here! Hopefully the members will have some suggestions for you.

The bird is on Baytril in case of infection, but I really couldn't tell from the photos if we are dealing with an infection type of problem or if the beak alignment and eyes are due to an injury. Mary Ann had told me that it is possible the pigeon was stepped on or kicked by a horse.

Any and all suggestions and help will be most welcome.

I know Mary Ann from Starling Talk, and she is a most capable rehabber and care giver to many types of birds .. we're just a bit stuck here on what to be treating.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if the conjunctiva is actually swollen, which it appears to be, I'd be afraid of an upper respiratory/sinusitis infection. The feathers below the chin and down the neck almost look like there's throat canker. I'd get an otoscope down the back of the mouth to peer down the throat as far as possible to see if there's any cheesy material down there.

That poor bird looks almost dead. I'd go for Metronidazole (Flagyl) in case of canker and Doxycycline for the eye/sinus problems. There are combo-preparations that you can get from the pigeon supply houses but if this bird has any time left at all, there's certainly not much to waste. I'd err to the heavy side of the Metronidazole dosing.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann,


I have seen at least one occasion of a laterally misaligned mandible that resulted from a Car impact...this young adult Pigeon also had a quite sprained wing and thigh.

Their jaw realigned itself with no special treatment from me, luckily, over about ten days or so...but I was obliged to feed them formula directly into their Crop during that time since they could not peck. 

Otherwise, the look of maybe a prominent (under the chin) swelling here with your Bird Mary Ann, as Pidgey mentions, I too would associate with Canker inflamming an area that may be effecting the jaw's hinge, which is rather farther down than their face would suggest. Swelling there can throw off the alignment of their lower mandible like what yours show...and, I assume is actually disslocating the jaw on that side.

Treat for Canker regardless I would think, but...just to run through a few topical look sees, is there any soiling of Feathers around their Vent? Any yellow watery pooops dried on the Feathers back there? I see that with Canker sometimes, as with flat paint yellow liquid poops or portions of poops.

Looks like gentle feeding into the Crop via soft Catheter for this one, if he can not peck, but do look down his throat in a good strong light to see if there are any odd little yellowish lumps like small curd cottage cheese...which would be Canker.

Keep him warm of course...


Good luck!

Welcome to our forum...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## tatts (Nov 9, 2005)

*try this site*

Here is a site that I recomend,it may be able to help some of you's in the future
http:/www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html 
I hope that this can help
tatts


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree, that it could be either canker or impact.

Piglet looked much like that when I found him, he was suffering from canker and pox, but the cause was visible. But then, I also took in a racer last week that had been hit by something, it had a dislocated beak and swelling in its throat . It's eye was half closed but that was because it had been scalped so the skin was loose and sagging. 

Once warm and rehydrated I would give it a pain killer and metronidazole, keep it warm and quiet, hand feed Kaytee Exact until it is certain that there is nothing blocking the throat.

Cynthia


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Thank you so much everyone for your help because this pijjie has me puzzled. I have it on baytril since saturday afternoon, and I will treat for canker. The eyes are better today, starting to open, on the left side it opened almost half way, the right side is just staring. I'm not losing it, or maybe I am, I talk to birds, LOL, but I had a heart to heart talk last night with this little pijjie as he used me as a perch, I said to him there is no way your going to die on me. I think this little one also has the will to live, I have that feeling this one might just make it . 
Mary Ann


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The will to live is the strongest medicine of all but there are a few cases where it's not enough. In the pictures, you'd almost think that his entire head was swollen. Can you give us a little more detail as to what you feel when you're palpating the head and neck? And a description of the droppings as Phil mentioned? If you need to compare droppings, it sounds like you've got a few other pigeons to do that with.

Pidgey


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

I took this little one today to get checked out. It has an upper infection, and trama to the beak. It should go back in place. Today both eyes were open, so it looks like the antibiotic is doing it's job, thank god. It's still not out of the woods yet, but hopefully it will be soon. It's a little fighter as far as wanting to live, and I'm giving it my all to make sure it does. With the two of us working together, its chance should be good. 

Pedgey, I do have three of my own, the poop has the nice form like it should be, and no green, so I know its getting enough nutrients. I am syringe feeding him/her. The head and neck seem to be fine, not really swollen. I know what you mean some cases.
Here are pictures of him/her I took today, you can see how much better the eyes look, on the side of the beak there is a little food because I just got through feeding him/her. I also included a picture of two of my other pijjies that I rescued and now live with me. I've also been a pijjie lover since I was a little girl. Let me know what you think.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Mary Ann,

Thank you for caring for this needy pigeon.

Wow, the bird looks alot better now.

I just wanted to add for any kind of blunt trauma, you can use the homeopathic product, Arnica Montana, this helps with head trauma. Helps to heal and reduce swelling, bruising, and clean up the blood quicker.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann,

Good work with this injured/sick pidgeon. What a difference in the two photos.
Were you able to see any signs of canker when examining for it? Also, has the 
misalignment of beak seen any improvement as some of the other inflamation has improved?

This pij is lucky to have found you, thanks for caring for him/her.

fp


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Trees Gray, Your welcome and thank you. I'm glad the lady brought this little one to me. I've got my fingers crossed it keeps improving. When I get a sick or hurt bird in I devote alot of time in getting it well. Thank you for the info to.

Feralpigeon, There were no cankers at all, I was glad for that. With the beak, not enough to notice yet, in time I'm hoping it does go back. 

I put my heart and soul into saving all birds. Pigeons have always been my first love. My door is always open to help birds in need. I thought I would share the pictures with you all that I took today.

Does anyone know anything about neo-poly-bac eye ointment. I was given that for the eyes, but I don't know anything about it, and if it safe for the birds eyes.
Mary Ann


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Same thing my avian vet gave me for some of my pigeons' eyes. I just went down and read the label to be sure. Use with confidence.

Sometimes, the canker is down in the esophagus below the deepest part that you can see just by looking in the mouth. For that presentation, you have to use an otoscope (what your doctor looks in your ears with) to see if there's anything further down. We've had a patient or two develop a hole in the lower neck where the esophagus rotted out and then right through the skin. That's why we're jumpy about that.

Pidgey


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Pidgey, Thanks so much for getting back to me on this, I don't like using anything I don't know about or never used. I put a lot of care in getting them healthy, and don't want to use anything that will make them worse. I'm raising six starlings, one disabled sparrow, and three pigeons of my own, and give them a lot of care to keep them healthy, and don't won't use anything that will hurt them. The poor little guy had that done, and even felt the neck and throat. I felt so bad. It totally stressed him/her out, and then they said he/she is breathing a little hard. I said how would you breathe if you were stressed. Again, thanks you so much.
Mary Ann


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

tatts said:


> Here is a site that I recomend,it may be able to help some of you's in the future
> http:/www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html
> I hope that this can help
> tatts



 http:/www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html 


To make a link clickable, just have [...u...r...l...] and then after the link address, have [.../...u...r...l...] But of course, omit the 'dots'.

PS - 

Hi Tatts, 

Your link goes to a no-go, no can be found.

Double check the address?


Phil
Phil


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there certainly are few different things that can cause labored breathing. One that comes to mind is Chlamydiosis (Ornithosis, Psittacosis). It was for the possibility of that one that I recommended Doxycycline. If that's what it is, Baytril can reduce the symptoms but it's not going to clear it like Doxycycline will. Email me your email address and I'll forward you a few pages from a real vet book on that one.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann, 


You are keeping this Pigeon "warm" as you would for a naked Baby, yes?

Anyway, you can treat for Trichomoniasis ( aka Canker ) without it interfereing with the Bird or his other meds, so, just so you know, it should not make for any worse a body-load than he has already.

'Ronidazole' is thought to be among the kindest meds for treating the Trhichonomiasis.

Too, he might not have that illness, and the swelling may be from trauma-contusion inflammation dislocation only...but, if it was me, I would likely treat for Canker just to be on the safe side.

Regular old 'Neosporin' - when I talkes to a Pharmacist about this, he said he would not hesitate to use it for his own or his children's Eyes, and that the difference as far as he knew, between it and the expensive 'tiny-tube' sort made expressely FOR 'Eyes', is the degree of purity of the ingredients in some technical way that is more or less academic rather than particularly meaningful in practice.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,
I sent you my email address. When I got the little one back home the breathing was back to normal. My starlings do the same thing when they go to the avian vet, it seems to stress them out. Feel free to send to me info.

Hi Phil, 
The answer to your question is yes, I'm keeping the pijjie warm. It's good to know I can treat for cankers without it interfereing with the other meds. I have heard about Ronidazole. I think it's a good idea to treat for cankers to be on the safe side. I'm used to working more with song birds. 

I have Neosporin here, I use it for wounds. In fact I used it on my first pigeon that was caught by a cat along with baytril. 

Thanks a lot you are a big help to me.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi all,

I actually was able to access the site that tatts posted by copying and pasting in my browser, took me right there. But anyway here are a few others for you Mary Ann & others that may be of help:

http://www.awbi.org/pamp11.htm#3

http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/infectives1.htm

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm#Salmonellosis (paratyphoid)

http://members.aol.com/duiven/vet.htm

http://www.worldwidewounds.org/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html#

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp

http://zcog.org/zcog frames/Avian Drugs/Avian Drugs.htm

Think that should be enuf for now  .

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann,


Too, a product called 'Berimax' is, so far as I know, excellent for treating or irradicating the Trichomonas of Canker or Trichomoniasis, probably safest and kindest of all, and will get rid of the now variously 'resistant' strains lamented of by various breeders and others...but, it has been hard to find or obtain. 

This may change, but I wanted to mention it for your 'mental blackboard' notes.

Too, slow learner that I am, the more I think about it, the more I feel that the convelescent adult Pigeon, will benifit from a diet which is as close as possible say to that of a optimum feral week and a half or two week old Squab. Or such as we might improvise or devise or even add to...that is in that ballpark.

Maybe with deference to possible diminished or compromised Kidney functions in cases where privation had occurred, we might try and have less protean in their diet, for a while, than a young growing Bird would have...but otherwise...

Plenty of things in other words, besides 'Seeds'...and plenty of good Seeds at that...Seeds with higher fat to them, such as the White Safflower and so on...Lin Seeds, Rape Seeds...

Various dried Berries, Dried Sea Weed, fresh Greens of various kinds, Brewer's Yeast powder, Olive Oil, Garlic Powder, pro-biotic-powders, digestive enzyme powders, maybe even 'Braggs Liquid Aminos' ( but that IS high in Sodium, so...'lightly' maybe on that one...) 

ACV-Water...and...

Anyway...I will keep brooding and some day make my definitive 'list' that others can add to or evaluate as they see may.

But I think this is well worth considering for all of us who deal with the ill, injured, starved, and hence convelescent Pigeon or other Birds also of course, as may be appropriate for their system's needs...and needs at that phase of their recovery.

Whether being fed by Syringe and 'formula', or, as an autonomous self feeding Pecking Bird, these ingredients to their diet may be easily introduced. And, as far as I have seen, they like them, too!

( In some other thread sometime, we should share notes on raising the infant or juvenile Song Bird...it would be fun...)


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I sent her the chapters on Chlamydiosis, the formulary and the chapter on antimicrobial therapy--about 70 pages. We might not see her for a month if she's an avid reader.

Oh, well, I guess I can't blame the little fellow for getting stressed out at the doctor's office--I certainly do at mine but mostly because of the money!

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Pidgey,

Thanks for sending all that info to Mary Ann .. she is a real trooper and will read and assimilate what you sent and put the knowledge to good use.

Terry


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Thanks you Terry, and everyone for the info I do appreciate it. 

Pidgey, I don't mind the doctors office, it's getting a shot or having bloodwork done, that's when I really stress out big time. 

I received the emails with all the info , and down loaded it on my computer, I just have to enlarge it because the writing was small, but did get to read some in between my birds I'm rehabbing and getting this little guy well. I'll be reading for more than a month, LOL. The little one has decided he/she wants to perch now and had the eyes open more today, and hopefully it's a good sign. I did find out something interesting today from the lady that brought this little one to me. When she brought me the pijjie she also brought another one down to, the one wound was with the wing, it was strange because it was of where it was on the wing, especially since it wasn't caught by a cat. Well anyway she got in contact with me today, and she told me she found out there is a young boy shooting pigeons and birds with a bb gun, and now she has a baby pijjie with fuzzies, and it is doing fine. She got a whole of this kid and gave him a really nice warning about shooting any birds with a bb gun. Now I'm wondering if this kid had anything to do the the beak trama. I don't think a child should be a gun even if it's only a bb gun. I bring my children up to love and enjoy feather and fur critters that was put on this earth to enjoy. I believe children learn what they are taught by parents. I have been very upset over this, and said if my kid ever did something stupid like this they wouldn't have hands to use anymore. 
Mary Ann


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann, 


Maybe if the kid could/would spend some time helping you or the other gal with whatever he could do rehab wise, helping with the care of the one he likely shot in the Wing, he would start to see how cool Birds really are, instead of seeing them as impersonal objects or prospective bb-targets.

Maybe...

Phil
Las Vegass


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Phil, 
This boy doesn't live my by me, he lives an hour way. The lady that brought the birds to me doesn't rehab, she something I think at a horse ranch because she mentioned an arena with horses, and that's where she has been finding the ones that are hurt. That's a nice idea, but some kids will never learn. If the boy lived by me, you can bet your bottom dollar, he'd be nursing them back to health.
Mary Ann


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann,

Is it possible for you to find out the boy's name and start a dialogue with the parents? Hopefully they might be interested in what his extra-curricular activities were about and how they might impact them in terms of possible feduciary obligations.

fp


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Here is an update. 
The pijjie is still doing fine, and the eyes are getting better. The antibiotic, and ointment seems to be working. He's getting more active everyday, and now does come out of his box and perches on the edge of it along with the branch I put on the side. His bottom beak is still off to the side a little, and hoping it goes back in place. The little guy does try to eat seeds, but still can't pick them up, so I still hand feed him. 

The stuff on the side of his face is food, we make a mess being he is squirmy now, and doesn't like his face cleaned. I'm also careful because I'm sure the beak is sore. You can also see how nice both eyes are getting. 

When I get a hold of the lady that brought him to me I can ask her to find out. 
Mary Ann


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As a note of interest, the condition of the beak is often called "scissorbeak" or "scissor beak" so you can search on that on Google, if you like. Essentially, there are many causes, trauma being only one. If it's straightening up then there's no need to touch it. But if it is looking permanent, then you can perform physical therapy by using your fingers to exert straightening pressure several times a day to correct it over a few weeks time. In really bad cases they actually glue straightening hardware on the beak with epoxy glue. Yours is nowhere near that severe, though, so not to worry.

I'm glad he's improving. If you have a stethoscope, you should listen to his chest to see if you can hear any unusual breathing noises. I should have mentioned that earlier. You can listen to a perfectly good pigeon for comparison.

Pidgey


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 
Thanks for the info on the beak. Your right it's not that servere, I just worry about it going back in place being the swelling is gone down a lot. It's funny you mentioned doing physical therapy, I have been doing that with my fingers. I have listened to the chest, and everything is normal, no clicking or anything else, the heart is even strong. When the birds come in to me I check them over very carefully, I even set broken bones. I'm glad you all post different kinds of info, it does help just in case something is over looked. Thanks so much, and if there is anything else please mention it in case something was over looked. You are all a great help to me. 
Mary Ann


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Mary Ann,

Glad to hear the little guy is doing better. You've probably thought of this yourself, but just in case, do you think it would help to offer him seed in a deep dish? Perhaps he'd be able to kind of scoop some seeds up into his beak that way rather than trying to peck at spread out seed till his beak is better.

Just a thought....Best wishes on his speedy recovery.

Linda


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Linda,
Thanks a lot. I did offer a deep dish of seeds, and now you got me thinking. I have some really small seeds, I wonder now if maybe he could eat them a lot better. What I'm going to do is try it and see if he will eat them, it may work out for him. Thanks a lot, you got my brain  working again. He's doing good, but it will be a little while before he is totally healthy. 
Mary Ann


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann, 


Yes, Linda's mention of useing a small Seed Dish, even something like say, a Shot Glass, especially if having small Seeds in it, might let him get some successful pecking to happen. Sometimes some crushed Fennel Seeds on top can interest them to try more, also, if he is not trying...

Might be worth a try.

Glad to hear of his improvements! Perching and taking more interest in being active...good news..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Phil,
I did give him some small seed but did eat them, he tries to pick them up but I think it's because of the bottom beak. There is another thing I going to try to, and that grinding up some seeds and see if that helps, and I'm going to get some fennel seeds, and crush them up, just in case my other idea doesn't work out. It's nice to see him with his eyes open and moving around. 
Mary Ann


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann, 


Does the mandible Beak have any lateral looseness to it if you gently test it's strength as for sideways movement?

You would likely notice this also when examining his throat...but...I was just wondering if it did.

Some of me wondered also if the slight scizzoring may have been lond standing and not per-se recent, either as an old trauma or infection that ended up that way, or from whatever cause...

But since there did seem to be localized swelling, suggestive of infection, in his neck and jaw hinge areas, it is likely due to something going on there I would guess. Or else the swelling is from a physical trauma whish also upset the condition of the jaw and it's hinging...

I tend to usually have some quite small 'Canary' or 'Finch' Seed around, for the occasional neophyte pecking Dove Baby, or, as may be. But...the scizzor Beak also, ironically, does make the smaller Seeds harder for them to get!
it is hard to get them to peck deeply enough to get them.


Small Seed is good of course if they are not opening as wide as they usually would when pecking.

Too, if you think his jaw is not too fragile or sore or tight from inflammation or injury, you could do some 'Seed-Pops' for which the dried Canadian Peas, Pop-Corn-Corn, small raw people-grade Peanuts, the White Safflower Seeds, and dried Goji-Berries cut into thirds or so, are excellent. (Too, you can moisten all lightly with Olive Oil and sprinkle Vitamine, Minerals, powdered garlic, pro-biotics, or as you please, on them and it will stick, so the Bird gets them with the Seeds) 

Seed-Pops, if you have not done them much previously, tend to go best with some gentle contrivance for constraining the Wings and general wgilles of the Candidate Bird, for which, my method has usually been to use the mid section of a Cotton sock, so the heel goes against their Crop, and the several inches of sock on each side of the heel go up to their chin and over their body about to their legs, or sometimes to oblige their legs to be held 'back' which is t he ideal..! Then I can hold them upright between my knees, for Seed-Pop or for formula into the Crop occasions...

Seed-Pops gives their innards something much more viscerotonically satisfying and a longer continuous digestion then the 'formula' alone would tend to do, but likely, especially if he is underweight, good nutritious formula would be nice for him to have too...

As your good foum pal NumberNine often mentions, and I concurr, the 'Hagens Breeding Mash' for some reason, seems to be outstanding as a brand-of-choice for making one's basic formulas with.

I tend to use it, and to add some other things, usually, various Seeds and Goji Berries and Sea Weed which I make into a powder in a kitchen blender...also sometimes also adding to the formula itself, Misu, Chlorella, and powdered Greens...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Phil,
There is a very very slight movement sideways, but not when you press lightly. There was swelling, but it doesn't appear to be old. He does open his to yawn and preen, but won't eat seeds. From the looks of it, it looks like a physical trama with an infection. He will put his beak in the a small shot glass type dish and toss all the seed out like a normal pigeon does, but won't open his beak to the seeds. I do have all kinds of seeds, from very small to large seeds, including canary/finch seeds, I have zebra, and society finches. I do think the jaw is sore. What if I took the small seeds and mixed a little hand feeding formula with the seeds so they will stick, and then there's the question about grit. If it works with getting seeds in him, he will need to have grit, so what would I do? I do have vitamins for birds, they are the powdered ones, I don't use liquid. 

The pijjie is getting better, the eyes open and now gets out of the box and will perch. He will walk around, but makes no move to fly. It's just going to take time, so I'm just hoping he makes a full recovery. 
Mary Ann


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann,

He will of course need tome to heal and get well...

I just feel scared dealing with feeding a Bird who has an injured jaw, of hurting them worse...but they have to eat or be fed, somehow...!

Sometimes I have erred on the side of not feeing them much because of this...just a few little meals-a-day via a small diameter catheter on a syringe, right into the Crop. 

Thing is, to do that, I have to open their Beak up pretty far to see well enough to make sure I like where I am inserting the tube, and that's just how it is.

They can coast just fine for a few weeks with no Grit, so no worries there...

Have you a way to weigh this Bird in grammes?

I forget, does he seem 'thin'? Is his Keel sharp at all?

If not, then even small nutritious meals of formula here and there, will likely hold him well enough untill he starts eating again on his own, which it sounds like he wants to do, but the Beak alighn and opening wide enough in pecking is not back to normal yet.

What do you have for making formula?

Have you ever fed a Pigeon by inserting a soft tube into their Crop before?

Of course, slipping a sock-sweater on him and doing See-Pops into his beak-mouth...if you think it will not hurt him because of the repetition of the act to get enough Seeds in there, if you think that is within safe limits, it is a good method, if more time consumeing in it's way...

At least with the slight scizzoring of his Beak, it will be easier to open than one that lines up correctly...Canadian Peas and Pop-Corn-corn would be good ones to try with...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Phil,
I do have a gram scale that I use to weigh other birds with. I tried to weigh him but he didn't want to stand still, he took beak and started pecking it. I would say he's around a half a pound, give or take. He's also a this years bird, I'd say he was born late May early June by his size. 

He's a little thin to me, but the keel bone is not sharp. 

I have Kaytee handfeeding formula.
I'm not scared to feed one with a injured jaw. What I do is very carefully hold the side of head and jaw to keep it from moving. I gently open the beak and syring feed getting the food into the crop. I'm more nervous about tube feeding.I also keep checking on the crop by feeling it, this way I know when he needs to eat. I also monitor his poop for color, I do with all birds. 

Ok, glad that I don't need to worry about the grit right now. I was wondering though, about grinding up seeds in my coffee grinder and making it powder and adding it to the formula. What's your thought on this?
Mary Ann


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

littlestar said:


> I was wondering though, about grinding up seeds in my coffee grinder and making it powder and adding it to the formula. What's your thought on this?
> Mary Ann


Hi Mary Ann, 

If you can get your hands on some pigeon pellets, these work great for grinding. They are vitaminized usually and will provide a balanced diet on it's own. You could also add this to the formula if you choose but if not, just add a bit of water and make it into a paste. 

This worked very well for my hand reared youngsters and helped to wean them off of formula and provided more "substance" in their bellies.


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Brad,
thank you for posting back to me, and thank who ever put me in the right forum. I can't get my hands on any around here. Are there any websites you can order it from? Why I ask is because I'm far away from pet stores and place to buy food for pigeons. What I do is stock up on different kinds of foods for birds so I don't run out. I do have have pigeon fed for my other pigeons, and is no problem grinding that up for now until I can get the pellets, and I also have vitamins for birds, they are the powdered ones. Let me know if that would be ok for now.
Mary Ann


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Mary Ann, 

No problem...where are you located? Normally in rural areas, you can find feed/farm supply stores that will sell pigeon feed and/or pellets. If this is not possible, you could likely order them from one of the various pigeon supply outlets in the USA, like Foys, Siegels etc. 

The reason I suggest pellets is because they are easier to work with than grinding seeds. Seeds don't mix well with water and the pellets have the vitamins and minerals added already (one less step).

Let me know where you are and I'll try to find some links for you to get them if you still can't find them around you.


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Brad,
The closest thing by me is an Agway store, but doesn't sell pellets. I don't buy pigeon food from them because I have fussy pigeons that won't eat the corn in it, so I go to another place and buy pigeon food without corn, but that's a distance away from me. They don't sell pigeon pellets there, they only have thre kinds of food for pigeons. I live in New York State. 
Mary Ann


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You can get Brown's Pigeon Pellets through New England Pigeon Supply:

http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/catalog.php?category=Brown%92s%20Feed%20and%20Grit

Also, you might be able to ask a local store to special order other products as well.

fp


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## EvilMonkey666 (Dec 1, 2005)

wow thats so sad.  Thankfully you got him and are taking good care of him. That poor little guy.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary Ann, 


Too, there are various particulars with respect to making and feeding formulas to columbiformes.

The formula should of course be near to their own body temperature.

Or feel neutral to our wrist...

It should be made warm in a little cup, in a pan of hot water, and NOT microwaved, because microwaved formula can have hot spots in it.

It should be made fresh every day, and refridgerated between warmings.

Never keep for the next day, just toss whatever is left and start over with a new batch.

If you grind your own ingredients to augment a commercial powder preperation, make at least a good cup full, keep dry, store in the fridge in a covered container. Add to commercial powder when making individual daily batches.



Too, powder 'formula' must always be mixed and stirred VERY homogeneously, as gummy 'lumps' can adhere to their throat sides or crop sides and cause bad problems.

For that matter, very good impromptu formula may be made with some Malto Meal ( plain, not flavored) Graham Crackers, and finely ground Seeds sieved to pass the tube or syringe end...to which one adds or has added, whatever else as for Vitamines, Minerals, pro-biotics or other nutrients.

Consistancy usually is to be about like a Milkshake or so...and definitely not too thick. Misu is good for them in these contexts also.

Grinding up Seeds, dried Berries, a little Sea Weed and so on in a regular kitchen Blender works well...I do this for making the formulas ( adding this to the "Hagens Breeding Mash" which is a powder kinda like kay tee, but I think it is a better product. but...) only for Baby Birds or youngsters who eat from the hollow of a nipple or the likes...since the Ground Seeds will not pass through the internal diameters of the soft catheters I have, or sections of such, which I use on the end of a syring for feeding INTO a Crop.

Now, when you are speaking of useing a syringe but NOT feeding all the way into a crop, you are talking about a plastic hook end Syringe maybe, sometimes called 'feeding syringes' for Parrots or something, which get the food into the throat merely of the Bird and not into their Crop directly.

Now, if they have any slight problems in or about their trachea, this can be very dangerous, because the food will tend to puddle there and untill swallowed cleanly, they will not be able to breathe with impunity.


This is some of "why" when I have to feed a grown or other Bird who is not eating on their own, or not eating formula from the hollow of a baby nipple, I will do so by inserting a very soft silicone catheter tipped Syringe, so that I lube it first with Olive Oil, and slide it down their gullet, being of course careful I am not slideing it into their breathing aperature, and I gauge the length in advance I know how far I will need to slide it in to...and I do it that way, so the liquid formula food is deposited directly in to their actual Crop.

This way, none of the formula is ever back-puddleing or gathering on top of their breathing aperature, as will happen when useing a plastic syringe that just goes into their throat.

Too, 'hard' tipped tubes or syringes or so called 'feeding syringes' often damage the very frail tissues of their throat and esophagus or crop, and in my view, should not be used for that reason to ever do anything other than put food into their mouth and no more.

Your Vet can likely give you a No. 5 or 6 Fr. Standard configuration Catheter, from which you use the socket end, trimming it so it will fit a 10 cc Syringe, and useing four inches of it or so. The clear/opaque super soft Silicone ones are the best...and make sure you know how deep to slide it in.

Some people perforate the Birds Crop in slideing in too far, or pushing TO slide it in, with a not-so-soft rubber tube or the likes...which of course is very bad for the Bird.

If all is right, it will slide in with no resistance...if you feel resistance, start over, you might be hitting the side of the inside Crop or some fold of it...so no push, just start over so it slides in with gentle sideways wiggles, and lube it first...


Small slugs of formula into the mouth, can contain more coarse fresh ground Seeds or even small whole Seed if the Syringe tip will pass them.

I would rather feed to their mouth than their throat if I had to pick one or the other.

But the best, in my view of the matter, is usually to feed so the formula goes directly into their Crop, and none of it is permitted to puddle in their throat where they can aspirate it and be injured from that accident.

Best wishes...

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Phil,
The syring doesn't have a hook on the end. I have a 10cc's syring. I do feed him very carefully. When I have to grind up food for birds I make it into powder. Actually that is how I do the food for starlings. I make food ahead of time and always put the powdered food without water in it and refrigerate it. I make it up as needed and make sure there are no lumps in it at all, and I never save any food that was made that day. I did grind up some seeds in my coffee grinder and made powder out of it. 

fp, Thanks for the link, I'm going to order some.

Mary Ann


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

EvilMonkey666,
This little guy is in good hands with me . I feel so bad for him, I wish I could snap my fingers and make make him feel better.
Mary Ann


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

That pij looks like it has a broken lower mandible and also a case of conjuctivis which needs antibiotics. I would seriously take it into a bird vet and get it looked at ASAP. He/she looks like it has been hit by a car or something but the bottom beak is definately broken you can tell that just by looking at it, they should be perfectly aligned. 

Good Luck

Naturegirl


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

*Update on Peawee*

Well, Peawee is doing fine, except he's blind which is really not a problem. He will be staying with me for the rest of his life. I know there are other blind pijjies out there that do really well, and I know he will also. 
Mary Ann


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Has he learned to feed himself yet?

Pidgey


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,
No, not yet. Terry said that he will though, it may take a little time. I have to teach him where the dishes are, and keep them in the same place all the time. He is also very healthy now, which makes me happy, and he is so sweet, just has to be on my shoulder. He likes to walk around, but I'm little nervous right now because I don't want him to get hurt. Sorry I haven't been around much, lots have been going on here. I lost my dog, cat, and my little sparrow, and have been very depressed over it. It's just going to take me time. Plus rehabbing some birds that came in, and I have been getting calls lately to on birds. 
Mary Ann


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

littlestar said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> No, not yet. Terry said that he will though, it may take a little time.
> *I have to teach him where the dishes are, and keep them in the same place all the time.*
> 
> ...


Hello Mary Ann,
I have a blind pij & what I did with Rae Charles is put a low perch in her cage, right in front of her seed, grit & water dishes. After the dishers were filled, I would tap on her seed dish to get her attention. She soon learned that when she stepped onto the perch her food & water were right in front of her. She's had no problems adjusting.  

Cindy


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi again Pidgey,
I forgot to mention that I read about your blind pijjie. That is amazing how she can fly. Birds and animal can sure help in how to over come disablities. I think that's why I have hope for Peawee.
Mary Ann


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Cindy,
Thanks for the ideas, it sure does help. I'm glad that Peawee gets to live with me because there is no way I let anyone have him, especially being blind. I was hoping that he would get his sight back, but it's been like 4 weeks now so I don't think he will ever get his sight back. BTW, I love your pijjies name. 
Mary Ann


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I know Peawee had trouble with his beak (slight scissorbeak) earlier and that he'd flip seeds out of the bowl but wouldn't eat even though he yawned and preened. Do you now think that he was blind back then and just doesn't think of the bowl of seeds as food or do you still think he's got or had a problem with his jaw?

Like Cindy, I used to tap the water bowl with a fingernail to get Unie's attention. I had to bump it into her chest and she'd peck downward at it out of frustration. She'd get a faceful of water and then she started learning what it was there for. First came drinking, then came learning to eat. It worked the same way and then we started orienting her to a specific place in her box. I got her a stainless steel hospital pan that shaped like kidney so she's got a wide angle to eat from.

Since Unie pretty much started off blind, she'd never learned to peck to begin with. I don't know how it would be with a bird who'd gone blind after being sighted for a good portion of life, but I think Cindy's bird and Terry's birds are like that.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mary Ann, just want you to know I am sorry over the loss of your dog, cat and little sparrow. That is a lot of grief to go through. My very best wishes and thoughts go out to you.

Maggie


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Pidgey,
Peawee still has the scissorbeak. I think the blindness was from his injury. 

(just doesn't think of the bowl of seeds as food or do you still think he's got or had a problem with his jaw?)
I think it's a little of both. I'm going to do what you and Cindy have done to get yours to eat. It's probably going to take time, and at least with him being with I have the time to give him. I'm waiting for the day he starts to give me them wing slaps (LOL).


Thank you so much Maggie. Birds and furry babies touch your heart so much, and when you lose them it tears your heart part so bad. I'm getting better, but I still have those bad days where I just sit and cry. I do have beautiful memories and pictures.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

Hi Littlestar, I got to this thread a bit late I see, but I was able to clean up an earler link a member sent you and it works now. I do have a copy of of that in my resource book. It is nice to have and hope it helps you or someone else!


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Thank you Victor. I added it to my favorites.
Mary Ann


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## Anarrowescape (Jan 6, 2004)

ok im not sure if any1 mentioned this but the topic was to long to read lol i cant read fast would take all day : /

have you checked the pigeon for an fractures in the face 1 of the pics looked like the right side of the face fad a dent in it

good luck


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Hi Robert,
I did have the little guy checked out and there were no fractures or breaks, but thank you for mentioning it.
Mary Ann


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