# HELP!! plz :D



## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Hello, I just stumbled across this site by accident, I'm really glad that I did 

I am hoping someone here might be able to help me??

I have a pet pigeon who has been fairly healthy up until last night really...He seems to be panting a lot and is puffed up and wanting to sleep/rest...He is alert tho...I'm not sure what could be wrong or maybe I am being paranoid.

I would greatly appreciate any help or advice anyone here could offer.

Thank you


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and Welcome to the forum.

We need some more information.

How old is your pigeon and is it a hen or a male?

Is it eating, drinking and pooping well? How does the poop look?

Any other noticeable changes?


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Thank you!!

He's male and will be nine yrs old this August ) 

He hasn't eaten much or drank anything for several hours now  Which is very unusual for him.

He is also fairly sociable with the family, but last night he was really recluse and wanting to hide. His poops look normal thus far, altho they are a lot further apart in time....

It almost seems like he is panting, and his tail goes up and down with this as well... 

Thank you again for your fast response.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Does he have contact with other birds?

A number of things could be wrong, hard to tell what it could be as the symptoms you describe are nonspecific. He is not a young one either.
Do you have an avian vet?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

He's male and will be nine yrs old this August ) 

*Are you absolutely sure he is a he? *

He is also fairly sociable with the family, but last night he was really recluse and wanting to hide. His poops look normal thus far, altho they are a lot further apart in time....

It almost seems like he is panting, and his tail goes up and down with this as well... 

*That almost sounds like the typical behavior of a hen trying to lay an egg.*

*If HE doesn't get better please have him examined by a qualified avian vet.*


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> He's male and will be nine yrs old this August )
> 
> *Are you absolutely sure he is a he? *
> 
> ...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

FuzzyPigeon said:


> Trees Gray said:
> 
> 
> > If this is egg laying how long does this last? What can I expect...
> ...


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Is it normal for such an old bird to be having eggs? 

Not to sound totally clueless....(how can i tell if he/she is bearing an egg)

He really seemed ok until supper time last night....He also seemed to gasp some too but hasn't really again...He's hiding in his 'nest' now quietly...


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Ack sorry, forgot to ask too...How long should it take before I see an egg?


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

I just checked in on him again...no egg...but does look like he has eaten some, unfortunately tho it appears he 'spit up' what he ate..his poops seem a bit on the runny side. And he seems to still have troubles breathing (panting) altho not to the extent it was earlier.

Could weather have this affect on a bird?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry folks, but this sounds too familiar and I keep thinking of Danielle's Eggbert. He had a crop infection, or at least that is what the vet diagnosed.

It could be nothing but the heat this time but I just wouldn't delay and would get him to the vet and on the right medication ASAP.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Panting from the heat and open mouthed breathing due to illness are different.

If it is an attempt by the pigeon to cool down because of hot weather you will see a distinct fluttering at the part of the throat that is just under the beak.

Have you examined inside the mouth?

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just one last thing...if the tail is moving up and down with each breath it is a sign of respiratory distress this is why *you must see a vet urgently *rather than wait to see if it related to egg laying.

As an example (not necessarily a diagnosis) these are the symptoms of aspergillosis:

Clinical signs: The disease is usually chronic in duration. Affected birds lose body condition and show signs of general malaise: reduced appetite, weakness, lethargy, lack of exercise tolerance and fluffed-up plumage. In the late stages evidence of respiratory difficulties may be observed including laboured, noisy, open-mouthed breathing. *The tail may move up and down with each breath*. 

Cynthia


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## Pigioto (Jul 14, 2006)

has this pigeon been outside were it could've gottin it scared?that would take care of the symptoms. *YOUR NOT PARANOID*


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I would hope that it was more a case of a respiratory infection that may respond to a tetracycline (Aureomycin, Doxycycline, Oxytetracycline) than Aspergillosis. They don't usually succumb to that unless they're immunocompromised from something else or get a heckuva' big dose of spores. But he is a fairly old pigeon and that's something to consider, as well. I would lean (heavily) towards the vet and the tetracycline and fast.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As I said, Pidgey, that was not a necessarily a diagnosis of aspergillosis but an example of how the tail rising and falling could indicate something other than the imminent arrival of an egg.

My point was that the pigeon should be seen by a vet as soon as possible.


Cynthia


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Thank you all so much...I did end up taking him to a vet today, and he is definitely not having an egg...The crop was swollen some, but responded to o2....

However he is having problems without being in the o2 cage (at the vets) they did do x-rays and seems like some organs are enlarged, reducing the size of the air sacs...Is there a disease that does this? But the vet assures he is breathing a-ok in the o2...I haven't heard any of those above diseases mentioned yet...He still seems healthy other than the breathing and appetite...

He's an indoors bird.
If all of ya could send best wishes his way I'd be greatful...


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Would tetracycline help in this case?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FP, 




What do you mean by "o2" ?

...do you mean Oxygen?



What has this Birds diet consisted of?

Does he get outdoor, direct Sunshine now and then?

Does he get indoor flying excercise often?



There are a lot of potential and often vague symdromes resulting from Vitamine deficiencies...too much indoor-time, and nutitional imbalances from a same mix seed-diet over long periods...

What kind of containers are used for his Water?

Are there any Mice or other Rodents around?


This could also be a possible Salmonella problem...

...could be a metal poisoning problem, or several problems at once...

Let us know on all of the above if you would...

Have you any better Vets to bring him to?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

*What do you mean by "o2" ?

...do you mean Oxygen?*

yes, oxygen 


*What has this Birds diet consisted of?*

A variation of seed, as well as grit, and special pigeon seed


*Does he get outdoor, direct Sunshine now and then?*

Not a lot, he's primarly indoors.

*Does he get indoor flying excercise often?*

He cannot fly.


*What kind of containers are used for his Water? *

Plastic.

*Are there any Mice or other Rodents around?*

No as he lives inside the house.

Thank you for your help


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FP, 


What does 'His Crop was swollen some" mean in this context?


Was his Crop somewhat inflated with air or gas?

Did the Vet do a Crop Swab to check for Candida? Or for inordinate Yeast activity?

Did the Vet do a fecal analysis?

Yeast problems, or Candida could also be something of whats ailing him...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

FuzzyPigeon said:


> I just checked in on him again...no egg...but does look like he has eaten some, unfortunately tho it appears he 'spit up' what he ate..his poops seem a bit on the runny side. And he seems to still have troubles breathing (panting) altho not to the extent it was earlier.
> 
> *Could weather have this affect on a bird*?


In what general area do you live?


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Hi FP,
> 
> 
> What does 'His Crop was swollen some" mean in this context?
> ...


The vet said 'swollen to the touch' but went down with o2 treatment.
Did a crop swab, which showed nothing unusual, no mucus or bloods or anything like cheesey stuff.
the poops were greeny due to not eating much I was told as well.

How would one go about treating yeast or candida if was the case?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FP, 


For suspected or confirmed Candida or Yeast mischiefs, I myself have used Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, at Two or Three ( but five or eight is said to be fine also, if a mite stout, ) Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water, and used this ACV-Water for their drinking Water...and I have with-held food for a few days, or untill they seemed interested to eat again but only after I felt their condition had abated enough...as these can in effect constrict the passages of their digestive system to where food will have trouble passing, so... 

Loss of appetite is typical of Yeast or Candida problems, but these should be easy for your Vet to test for. 

So, if he in fact did not do so the last time, please consider to revisit him with your Bird, and have him test for these.

Now, 'Nystatin' is also used to treat these and it is universally accepted as a very good medicine for these conditions, and any Vet would have it on hand I am sure, along with the dosage instructions for whatever concentration of it they have.

Nystatin may be used along with the ACV-Water or medicines...and or the ( say Two or Three Tablespoon concentration, of the ) ACV-Water is a nice thing to provide any time for your Bird's general Health even in situations where no Candida or Yeat problems are certain or suspected.


Coccidiosis also, should be tested for, if he did not do so specifically...


But, it is important, that some more definitive diagnosis is made for understanding your Bird's condition...in order for there to be the best most appropriate regimen and medicines if need be, for his recovery...


It is only too easy to make guesses or to mention possibilities which might not be what is wrong at all...and 'time' in a case like this, can be of the essence...or there is easilt too little of it to spare for delays in seeking the best diagnosis possible so a regimen can be elected.


And, I am sure, most of us here regard 'Tail Pumping' and anything like 'Beak Breathing', as very serious signs of trouble.

If he is not decidely making plenty of his own body heat, then set him up in some sheltered way for him to be warm...use an electric heating pad with a towell on it, so he can be on it or off of it as he likes...keep him well out of any air conditioning...

If his immune system is 'down', any number of otherwise neutral or symbiotic background organisms in his crop or intestines, could get out of their normal balance and be making impetuous problems or illness.

If you think he has lost weight, make sure to tell the Vet...

If he is not drinking enough, you may have to give him fluids via some Tube Feeding method, and with any illness, adequate hydration is quite important.


Good luck with this...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

There are several conditions that could cause enlargement of the organs and affect the air sacs.

This is a link to information on the veterinary tests associated with dyspnea (difficulty in breathing) in birds.

Your vet will know which tests will be the most relevant in the case of an indoor pigeon. 

http://www.petplace.com/Netscape/nsArtShow.asp?artID=497&cboArticleContentsNames=15809

If you press the "previous page " button there is more information on causes.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm certainly glad it wasn't an egg... and hope some good research will give you a clear cut diagnosis.

I'm sure some good nutrition and outdoor air as Phil mentioned would benefit as well.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi FP,
> 
> For suspected or confirmed Candida or Yeast mischiefs, *I myself have used Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, at Two or Three ( but five or eight is said to be fine also, if a mite stout, ) Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water*, and used this ACV-Water for their drinking Water...
> 
> ...


I have no idea who might have said *5 or 8 TBSP of ACV* was fine to put with a gal of water, but I'm quite sure it wasn't anyone from this site. 

Even for a 'stout' pij that's too much. I think Brad's pijjies are probably the largest we have here & he only uses about 2.5 TBSP (US) of ACV per gal of water.
Here's the link to his 'ACV doses' thread:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15560&highlight=Apple+cider+vinegar 

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I have no idea who might have said *5 or 8 TBSP of ACV* was fine to put with a gal of water, but I'm quite sure it wasn't anyone from this site.
> Cindy



Hi Cindy,

This became part of the discussion on the " Possible unusual presentation of canker" thread, when Pidgey brought up some information he found and that began a whole new discussion on ACV. 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=134771&postcount=31


I guess we established the use of preventive amounts of ACV at 1 to 2 tablespoons, and therapeutic uses at much much more.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> This became part of the discussion on the " Possible unusual presentation of canker" thread, when Pidgey brought up some information he found and that began a whole new discussion on ACV.
> 
> ...


Thanks Treesa. It does helps to have a link to refer to. 
Unfortunately, some of us don't get to every post (especially those who initially post about a situation & haven't had time to browse the site) & then there are some of us who just plain forget. / 

At any rate, I didn't think it was one of our members who actually made that suggestion. 

Personally, I would never put that much ACV in a gal of water & expect my birds to drink it. What would probably happen is they *wouldn't* drink it & then become dehydrated.  

I'll go back & take a look at the rest of that thread. Thanks again Treesa.  

Cindy


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Thank you all soooo much for the info, I am learning so much from everyone 

The bird seems to still be doing well as long as he is in the o2 cage (at the vets)...He was fed today as well, now just waiting to see if he is able to digest or he will toss up again.

Testing, using barium was mentioned, does anyone know more about this? What are they looking for? And what risks are there for my bird?

I did read about Dyspnea, which is making me think this is what they are looking for...Altho they are still not ready to do anything with medication or antibiotics  Is Dyspnea curable??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Air Sac Mites could also make for troubles along these lines...


The more than 'two or three' Tablespoons of ACV to the Gallon was from a quote Pidgey provided from research listed in the new edition of the 'Big' Book of Pigeon Medicine...

sorry if this was a careless mention for me to have made...

I myself have been satisfied with the 2 to 3 Tablespoons to the Gallon, and it has cleared up problems just fine.


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

FuzzyPigeon said:


> *Testing, using barium was mentioned, does anyone know more about this? What are they looking for? And what risks are there for my bird?*


These are questions you should be asking your vet.
Just curious, is the vet you are using an avian vet?

I think I asked in a previous post, your general location, but don't recall you answering. 

Cindy


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Canada...

And yes an avian vet...Does using a barium for testing sound odd?


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Just jumping out on a limb even, but could it be something like a cold or the sniffles??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They often use barium in people to test for GI abnormalities by way of making you drink the stuff and then X-Ray you after awhile. The GI doesn't show up very well on X-Ray so you take the barium to really set it off for the picture. Weird stuff shows up real well when you do that. Methinks that they're thinking that they might be able to detect what's causing your bird to throw up with the barium. I will say that it sounds more like what happened to Henny (PigeonPal2002's hen) than anything else. Ultimately it appears that the worst thing she had was a longlasting case of pneumonia that probably would have responded to the Tetracyclines best.

As to acidification by ACV, yes, there are therapies where they go far beyond the dosages that folks usually present here. Normally, I don't use the stuff and so I'm not really sure why you'd want to do that--it's more of an alternative therapy and I'm not versed in it. I think a person should refrain from going to those extremes (the standard dosages given here don't apply) unless they really knew what and why they were doing that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reading a thread about Henny might help--it's a long one and if I were you I'd just go ahead and skim to and read only the posts where Brad (PigeonPal2002) is talking about Henny's symptoms:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14465

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As to why some organs would be enlarged, infections (almost regardless of type) often cause splenomegaly (enlargement of the spleen), hepatomegaly (enlargement of the liver) and sometimes nephromegaly (enlargement of the kidneys) because some (or a lot in a bad infection) immune and blood cells become casualties in the fight. They end up being reprocessed (broken down) in the spleen and liver. Of course, an infection can occur directly in those organs as well. With nephromegaly, it's probably usually a direct infection but often weakness or paralysis of the legs shows up with that one.

There are quite a few things that can cause these problems (including cancer-type things) and he's a relatively old bird. Realistically, it can be incredibly difficult to find, isolate and identify a lot of things and this is one of those cases that often responds better to the "shoot first, ask questions later" methodologies so that'd be my choice. If your vet's going to go for barium testing and stuff like that, then he might get lucky but it can go both ways.

Pidgey

In birds, the spleen is tucked in an area that's between the proventriculus (first stomach) and the ventriculus (muscular second stomach or "gizzard"). If it gets too enlarged, it can constrict the duct between the two.


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Hello, Just wanted to update everyone ...

My little guy is doing very well now...He spent a few days at the vet, and the oxygen cage seemed to 'cure' whatever his problem was, as he's back to normal   

Still not positive as to what it is exactly he had, but it seems to have passed now. (Although he did seem mad that he had to stay at the vet for a while  -- a good sign lol )

Thank you everyone!!!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am so glad he is feeling better and that the oxygen did him a whole lot of good. 

Did the vet have any idea what possibly happened or make any recommendations?


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

She wasn't totally sure what caused this in him, as most of the tests came back negative, aside from the slight enlarging, which seemed to subside over the few days he was there...She didn't see the need to proceed with further tests, since he was no longer showing distress or symptoms. By the time he was ready to come home he was dancing about knocking his food and water dishes over for them at the vets lol  She did say tho, to watch him closely to see if anything such as changes in the environment bring on any further problems or attacks. So far he's been back to his cute little self. Very relieved, he gave us quite the fright, he got so sick so fast. I'm just so glad she was patient and looked after my lil' pigeon! He got great care


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Great news, Fuzzy Pigeon!  

Hope all continues to go well! 

Sounds like you have a great Vet, which ALWAYS helps and makes a difference!!


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

*UGH not again!! *

After almost two months of improvement and smooth sailing, my little guy is back in the same boat again  

Although he isn't "tail pumping" he's having great difficulty breathing  Took him back to the vet (same vet) last evening....Still not sure the cause of this...He's back on oxygen but as of now no signs of improving. They're going to do blood work in the morning, perhaps that may show if there's infection or something. 

Just worried


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dang, Fuzzy! I'm very sorry to learn of this. Bless you for getting the bird to the vet .. I'll be hoping and praying for a very good outcome.

Terry


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

Thank you!!!

I really do believe in the power of prayer  Going to try everything we can to get him back on the road to recovery. Makes it hard too since last time he was in nothing was really found, and it pretty much went away on its own. 

This is just an awesome site/board filled with terrific people with so much knowledge.

thanks again!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FP,


Hmmmmm....

Think very carefully about any household products or proceedures related to household maintenance, you may have used or done recently...or had possibly used or done last time your Bird had these symptoms.


Many common, casual, routine household aerosols, cleaners, carpet shampoos, floor waxes, 'PineSol', scented Candles, Air fresheners, and endless other things one might not realize...can poison our Birds if used anywhere near them, or where the air can carry fumes of these things to where the Bird is...

A 'Teflon' pan, if it is allowed to get hot on the stove, can make fumes which can kill them.

And we might not even notice the 'fumes' at all, or think anything of it.

Birds can be very sensitive to these things...


New Carpets? New Drapes? Painting the Walls? That could do it...

Good luck...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

I been racking my brain for the last six hours trying to think if could be any of those things as well, nothing comes to mind even. If there was at least would be a good place to start, and easier to work towards a way to resolve this. Nothing has really changed in that effect in the last few months...sighs...I feel so helpless wondering...Whatever is causing this, comes on almost sudden like....he goes from being healthy to having respiratory problems.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear your bird is sick again.
Seems like he has something chronically going on. I hope the tests your vet will run will show what it is and you can treat it successfully.
Please keep us updated.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

FuzzyPigeon said:


> * Nothing has really changed in that effect in the last few months...sighs..*.I feel so helpless wondering...Whatever is causing this, comes on almost sudden like....he goes from being healthy to having respiratory problems.


I'm so sorry to hear your sweetie s having respiratory problems again.

If no changes have been made then perhaps the offender is still there. Try moving him to another room, also, does he go outside for some fresh air and sunshine?


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

*He's Homeeeeeeeeeee *

Just a quick update  My little guy came home yesterday! He was so excited to be leaving, had a hard time keeping him in his little box to go home, lol...

He seems to be doing very well breathing without problem  I am praying he continues to stay this way and improve!! His bloodwork showed no actual infections, but rather more of an inflamation. The vet gave him a medicine to administer to him once each morning. I can't remember the name on the bottle right now, but I will get back to ya all on it  It is something to bring down inflamation, I'm optimistic on it working. So will be keeping a close eye on him. As before the vet was terrific with him, muchly appreciated!

He also seems to have lost some weight, but I'm sure this is due to the fact he hasn't been well for a while. He did dive right into his food bowls as soon as he seen his "area" again.

Thank you everyone for your kind thoughts and words


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## FuzzyPigeon (Jul 22, 2006)

*It's been a bit more than a week ...*

And he's really doing great!! A lot more energy, looks better - everything. This medicine really seemed to do the trick. He's done his week dosage now, so hoping to see him continue to do well without the medicine. Would hate to have him regress and need to have it.

The medicine he had was MetaCam....Anyone familiar with it?

Thanks again everyone! Have a terrific day.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not many pain relievers are safe for birds, some are really bad (like Tylenol). So, Metacam and aspirin are the two most common although Metacam is more widely used by far. It's a bit on the concentrated side and so dosages are usually pretty small unless a formulation has been made to make dosing easier (5 drops instead of a tenth of a drop; like that).

Pidgey


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