# Is It Ash Red ? ??



## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

Hi all
I am new here and i will like to get your help on this one.
this is my new homer it looks like aplain ash red but look at the tail and the head


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

*tail*

i post another picture please take alook at his tail.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

yes that is a ash red. Indeed its called Splash Ash Red due to the white feather it has.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Not a good photo; but considering it is a racing pigeon, it is probably recessive opal chequer (pied). It may be indigo, but without knowing the parentage it is difficult to be sure.


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

"A Tom Barnhart homozygous Blue Indigo that is a near-perfect mimic for an ash red check. *Note how much this homozygous Indigo (double dose of this gene on blue) resembles an ash red checker. *Only the darker head and tail help show the presence of indigo."


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

*A post from Ron Huntley site about Indigo*

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/blueindigo.html

Could it be Indigo ?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

WHen I first saw it I thought Indigo, It is certainly NOT ash red.

I would suspect its only one dose Indigo too, It does not look like an ash red mimic to me but could be the photo.


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> WHen I first saw it I thought Indigo, It is certainly NOT ash red.
> 
> I would suspect its only one dose Indigo too, It does not look like an ash red mimic to me but could be the photo.


Wow ! 
I wish it is indigo
it is very rare at my place. 

You said it is not ash red ,what it could be else then indigo ?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Maybe as said rec opal. I cannot think of much else.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

My first thought was Indigo as well. I don't see ash red at all.

Jim


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Have you any black pigeons, as in blue - spread. 

that would be a good cross for this if you like andalusian.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks indigo to me.


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

thanks for the tip


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

The tail band is a bit too evident for this bird to be indigo, and it appears to be expressing some opal in the band. A top view pic of the tail fanned out would be interesting.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks fine to me. The tail band has some variation in indigo. Not as much as dominant opal can do, but still it can vary.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Looks fine to me. The tail band has some variation in indigo. Not as much as dominant opal can do, but still it can vary.


Indigo and opal each have very different effects on the tail. Indigo nearly or completely eliminates the tail band while opal creates a whitish band. Other modifiers effect the extent of the effect of each, of course.


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## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

tmaas said:


> Indigo and opal each have very different effects on the tail. Indigo nearly or completely eliminates the tail band while opal creates a whitish band. Other modifiers effect the extent of the effect of each, of course.


That is the textbook description anyway. But if you have raised significant numbers of Indigos as I have and as I believe Becky has, you will come to know that there can be significant variability in the extent to which the tail band is eliminated by Indigo among various individuals. To me the bird is clearly Indigo.

Jim


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I've raised many indigo and indigo/dom. opal combination homers with none of them showing a tail band as evident as what this bird expresses. I've not worked with indigo/rec. opal combos, however; and maybe the modifiers which prevent indigo from effecting the tail band were simply not present in my flock, or all modifiers were present to eliminate the band.

The bird is not ash, so it must be indigo and/or opal. I'd still like to see a better tail pic to see if opal is evident.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

One of my darker tail banded birds


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

It may or may not change the tail band. Modifiers or the presence of one of the two types of opal could be suspect.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

tmass, I do not see any opal in this tail, It looks pretty typical of Indigo to me, I have too seen a lot of variance in the effect of Indigo on the tail band.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Years ago I had a small group of andalusions. Suddenly out came a white bar and a blue with some white and blue lace. I always thought that even indigo without the spread still had a tail without a band. I see on a genetics site on indigo that many of the indigo pictures the birds show tail bands to some extent, somewhat faded but noticeable. But because of what I remember from yrs ago, I still wouldn't be surprised end up finding a poor expression of one of the opal genes to be acting like a modifier on the tail bar. I try to test my homers for recessive opal to see if they carry it. It usually will not produce a white bar or check, not that I have seen reported. Some pictures look like the tail bar in recessive o looks whitish but not the wing pattern ? I have one indigo check and he show a gray tail bar. The picture posted the red is so dark I suspect the bird might carry recessive red or maybe be homozygous indigo ? But I thought the pure indigo lightens the flights and tail to look like ash ?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Steve, were these white lace andalusians you mention double indigo on spread blue?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Steve said:


> Years ago I had a small group of andalusions. Suddenly out came a white bar and a blue with some white and blue lace. I always thought that even indigo without the spread still had a tail without a band. I see on a genetics site on indigo that many of the indigo pictures the birds show tail bands to some extent, somewhat faded but noticeable. But because of what I remember from yrs ago, I still wouldn't be surprised end up finding a poor expression of one of the opal genes to be acting like a modifier on the tail bar. I try to test my homers for recessive opal to see if they carry it. It usually will not produce a white bar or check, not that I have seen reported. Some pictures look like the tail bar in recessive o looks whitish but not the wing pattern ? I have one indigo check and he show a gray tail bar. The picture posted the red is so dark I suspect the bird might carry recessive red or maybe be homozygous indigo ? But I thought the pure indigo lightens the flights and tail to look like ash ?


I thought this looked typical of het indigo, Beckys looks more homozygous to me but I could be wrong. Generally pure Indigos do look like ash reds but with all genes and discussions we must remember we are discussing the genes expression on the wild type specimen, when other modifiers are added all the "general" rules go out the window.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

They were spread. The white bar bird was a hen and not homozygous for indigo. The nest mate was a cock and was spread blue in the nest but molted in white pattern lace. The male was a light blue like a milky or reduced blue coloration. I had reduced at the time, but it was not in those birds. I raced my birds at the time, and lost both of these two in training. I suppose the male could have been a homozygous. It was a very long time ago. I can only say that back then I was told that poor colored dominant opals (redish type) can suddenly start throwing white pattern . A redish type dominant opal would not necessarily show on an indigo or spread andalusion. For me in racing homers if one is concerned with color genetics, birds should be tested for recessive opal to make sure things are not getting mixed up. Since recessive opal is floating in many strains of racing homers. It is rather popular to combine dominant opal to andalusion as is the same to combine reduced with it. Having viewed other peoples work with normal blue check and bar dominant opal and seeing the poor colored ones, I felt that reduced was much more stable and predictable than working with opal ? Some who have worked with white bar dominant opal may disagree. I did not try it so I cannot say from actual experience. Some breeders like dominant opal and reduced combined. So even some reduced birds can carry dominant opal. Also since its near impossible to have homozygous dominant opal, a color project with it cannot be stabilized to breed true for color. With reduced the color combination can be stabilized to breed true in the homozygous condition.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2013)

Second thoughts, I dont think the male was homozygous indigo. Because the head neck color should have been an oyster white had he been homozygous, or at least the neck and under carriage. These areas were blue but I believe the tail was laced. As I respond on this , since it was a long time ago. I question if I am remembering the birds correctly.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Nope all of mine are het indigos.


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