# Peter's Progress, something is wrong



## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Just when I thought everything was getting easy, his crop filled with air and he seems to be having trouble breathing. Before I fed him, I was checking his crop and noticed it had air in it, but he opened his mouth as I was sort of pressing on it and burped and all the air left, so I fed him. He ate well, but his crop is full of air and he can't seem to breath well. I am worried. 
Chris (Josh is asleep)


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Chris,

If you are still hand feeding and using a syringe or tube, you might be accidentally putting that air into the crop. Check carefully that the syringe doesn't have an air pocket when you push the plunger. 

There is a slight possibility of a ruptured air sac .. not likely .. and not to go into a major panic over if that is what has happened.

Another possibility is sour/slow crop .. and that we do have to be concerned about. Is Peter's crop emptying as it has been in the past, and you are not feeding again until the crop is empty or nearly so?

Terry Whatley


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Hi Chris,
If this happens only when feeding, and you can press the air sack and make the air excape through the mouth, I would not worry about this. Some birds just inhale when the are fed, allowing to much air to get into the crop.
If the air sac is full all of the time, and even when you compress the crop, the air remains, then we have another problem.
I hope the situation is as my first suggestion, but if the problem is more, please explain in more detail. 
We are here to help.
Carl


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Peter's crop was empty of food before I just fed him so I pressed the air out. He was breathing fine and just seemed a little sleepy. He ate with interest but then started a labored breathing again and his crop filled with more air, but not as much as before. When he breathes in I can hear a slight click with each breath(like a lifter on an engine). When I feed him I use a syringe and just squirt out a gentle stream at the front of his beak which he laps up pretty quickly and swallows (like a drinking fountain). 
I don't know if its related, but he may have gotten too hot right before this started, because, his eyes were opening, so I thought he might like to be out of a dark place and moved the heating pad from on top of him to beneath him (with nesting material on top of the pad) the temperature seemed fine, but he was very hot when I picked him up to feed him later and his crop had air in it. I moved the heating pad back to the way it was before, but wonder if that could have had something to do with his breathing? 
I hope Peter is OK. Even my husband is getting up to check on him. 
There is something special about that bird, no wonder so many people keep pigeons. When I told my husband that I had written about not keeping him as a pet, his face sank and he said "We're not keeping him?" and the whole idea went out the window right then. So if he makes it through my feedings we'll keep him.
thanks again
Chris


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm hoping no formula got into the windpipe.. Be sure to avoid that hole behind the tongue as he could aspirate if anything got in there.
I've never had problems with air filling the crop but I did have a bird once that aspirated some water and he made a clicking sound with every breath.. Can you listen closely to the chest for any clicking sound.

Mary


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

He seems to be breathing better and his crop did not fill with air the last time I fed him although I had to "press" the air out of it before I fed him, still it was less than last night. and the clicking noise was less noticable and only occured briefly after feeding. He even opened one eye up again this morning, which he had stopped doing last night. He doesn't have the vigor that he had yesterday, but is better than last night, so I'm hoping he was just overheated and is recovering.(?)

I took some pictures this morning for reference if you would like to see them. http://community.webshots.com/user/joshaway4491 

I'll keep you posted.

Chris


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

The crop can look like that when it's full of formula but the breathing from the mouth must mean there is some air in there or something- I hope someone can come along shortly to help figure out what to do.

Mary

p.s Love the little bird trying to take some of your hair for nesting!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good morning Chris,
Well, Peter is a precious little pij!
Thanks so much for the updated pictures.
They do have a way of creeping right into your heart without warning.
Cindy


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

Chris,

If Peter got overheated he would be breathing open mouth like he was panting, and the wings would be slight spread from the body. A good way to monitor the temp...especially if the heat source is below him is to use one of those flexible thin plastic strip thermometers. It can be placed on top of the bedding right next to the baby. They can be found in the reptile/fish section of of the larger pet stores/chains, and are relatively cheap insurance on having an idea of the surrounding temp. for young babies.

Too little heat or too much heat can be problematic with young chicks with crops. Too little heat tends to slow down digestion. The body has to use more body reserves to warm the food closest to the 'thoracic esphogus' which is the opening at the base of the crop interior that delivers the food into the digestive tract. When digestion is slower due to a chilled baby or food in the crop there is risk of yeast. By the same token if the baby gets too hot this can also contribute to yeast., sour crop, and/or secondary bacterial problems. In either case if if new food is fed on top of any existing for due to the slower digestion this could lead to sour crop. When the food is starting to sour it could start to ferment and bubble...thus releasing air in the crop. 

If a small amount of food got into the lungs you would hear a slight clicking or rattling sound if you placed your ear against his back.

Sometimes an air sac can rupture, which would also give the crop an inflated look. sometimes the air can be massaged out of the crop, and sometimes a small incision (by an experienced person or vet)externally to the air sac will delate it. Most reptured air sacs are self healing if they are monitored and kept deflated. 

A note of caution when trying to massage air out of the crop. Take care not to also squeese food up the neck and back into the throat. In doing so there is risk of aspiration.

The above is just some 'what if's as to possible causes/problems.

Hopefully Peter is fine.

For a day or so monitor the crop. The following is applicabe to any species of bird with a crop, and FYI stuff to know...just in case









Be familair with the skintone, texture, and thickness (can gently guage this between your fingertips)of the crop. A healthy crop is going to have a semi-translent look to the skin...whereas you can see some of the crop contents. The colortone of the skin should be uniform, and any blood veins are just barely visible. When the color of the crop skin starts to get a whitish opaque look, or reddened and the network of veins start to become very pronounced/visible this can be an alert to possible problems such as yeast and/or bacterial. Many times yeast can start to bud and adhere to the inside wall of the crop. This will cause the crop to look opaque, and also thicken the crop skin. When the crop skin thickens due to yeast build up it also reduces the crops capacity to hold as much food, and will also cause some reguritation. When the blood veins are very prominant and in contact with the areas of budding yeast there is great risk of the yeast going systemic. One of the best means I have found to halt and break down budding yeast in the crop is to crop feed a 50% solution (1-2cc depending on size of baby) of vinegar and water into the crop and vigorously massage it into the crop tissue. Doing this 2-3 times a day over a day or two helps restore the crop tissues to normal.

Susanne


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Thanks for all the information, but regarding...

"If a small amount of food got into the lungs you would hear a slight clicking or rattling sound if you placed your ear against his back." 

Yes, that sounds right.

What if in addition to the possible yeast in his crop- which sounds likely, he also got food in his lungs. How bad would that be and is there anything I can do? 

His whole body moves with his breathing even when he is asleep. Am I just watching him too closely now?, because I don't remember him doing that before. And he doesn't open his eyes or peep anymore.

As far as the yeast infection, I mixed his formula with half water and half white vinegar. He had some air in his crop before feeding which I massaged out. Then fed him and massaged his crop. His breathing became more labored again with feeding. 

Chris


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## screamingeagle (Oct 16, 2002)

Poor little guy. He's so tiny. Did the other egg ever hatch? I hope he makes it. It sounds like you guys are doing everything you can right now.

Hopefully more people will be on here to help you diagnose him better!

Suzanne


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

Chris,

If you suspect that there might have been food that got in the lungs, that is not good. Hopefully it isn't..., But if so he would need some type of antibioics. Do you have or can you get to a vet? 

I have a holistic remedy that many breeders with ALL types of chicks have been using succesfully with crop and low grade bacterial and yeast problems for the past 3 years. It is NOT a cure...but an effective remedy to help boost the birds system enough to fight pathogens.

From your kitchen cabinet you will need the following. Have a small jar to mix well together:
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2 tsp. of garlic *powder* (not garlic salt)
1/2 tsp. of ginger
1/2 tsp of cinnamon
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Add a small pinch of this at each feeding the first day, and every other feeding the following day up to 7 days of treatment.

This little remedy contains several vitamins and nutrients that will help boost the immune system. It is also effective against low overgrowths of yeast and other pathogens. 

I am on a new computer...and most of my info. is stored on my other computer. I will try to find some info I had on DSMO (can be found at a leage feed store) which was used very successfully under a vets care with aspirated chicks.

More later...

Susanne


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

That is very interesting Susanne!

Mary



> Originally posted by justcockatiels:
> *
> 
> From your kitchen cabinet you will need the following. Have a small jar to mix well together:
> ...


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

Mary,

You would be surprized at how effective and fast it can work. Myself and local breeders have used in on 100's of babies with very positive results. It has been passed along on many of the help lists for the smaller breed of exotic parrots and gave babies just that extra edge to fight...or to hang in there if a serious infection was going on until veterinary diagnostics and treatment was prescribed.

It has also helped as a last resort (what triggered me to research herbs and experiment and tailor the ingredients ratio's several years ago) when normal yeast and antibiotics treatments were not working at all. 

Susanne


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

I'm sorry to give you the very bad news that Peter died. I feel so terrible. 7 days to our hearts. 

Thanks to everyone for your help and interest. I am feeling the empty nest syndrome now because I don't have any reason-past this, to visit this site. I probably will anyway. 

We are going to bury him in my flower garden. 

A side note, I did call my vet, but he didn't take birds.

Josh wanted to add that he is very disappointed because he really wanted a pigeon.

Chris and Josh and the rest of the family


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## justcockatiels (Jun 1, 2003)

(((A GREAT BIG HUG!!!)))

Here is a link to Rainbow bridge: http://www.cyberhideaway.com/RainbowBridge/birds.html 

It's a beautiful place we can hold in our hearts and minds for our lost feathered friends...

Susanne


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Chris and Josh,

I'm so very sorry, I'm starting to cry









The same sort of thing happened to my beloved pet pigeon that I raised from a tiny baby .. It is very sad but you and Josh really did a wonderful job taking care of him and these things do happen, I hope many more needy pigeons come your way and hopefully Josh can have a pet pigeon. 


Take care,

Mary


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Dear Chris & Josh,
As you have learned from this site, we are all 100% 'Pigeon People' & the death of one of our pijjies hurts us all.
I am so very sorry.
We invite you & the family to continue to visit our site. You are members as well. 

"Josh, this is a very sad time for you & your family. Always remember one thing, if only for a short time, you gave Peter love, care & shelter. He wouldn't have wanted for anything more" 
Cindy


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

I am so sorry.
It is difficult for an experienced person to handrear from day one, let alone a newcomer. You did well to get him to 7 days old and are to be commended for your efforts.
May God go with you.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry. You took on a daunting task and we all learnt a lot from the information that came forward as a result of this. maybe this will help another hatchling survive. But I had so hoped that little Peter would be the one to make it. 

It would be nice if you could stick around, chat...and there will be plenty of people that will need your advice.

Cynthia


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## screamingeagle (Oct 16, 2002)

Poor little guy. It's so frustrating when you're doing all that you can and then they die. I had my first pigeon only 3 weeks before she died too from severe canker. The vets in the area didn't take birds either. It's very hard to deal with, and maybe some people who don't know all the love you've given to that baby will think you're nuts to be so grived over the loss, but you're not. I didn't realize how wonderful pigeons were until mine died. It took me 8 months to "get over" the death of mine, and that was only because I desperately looked forward to getting another one to fill the void left in my heart. But because mine died, I found this site, and have learned SOO much about pigeon health and symptioms of illness. And now I am determined not to make the same mistakes. That's all you can do. But because of your love and efforts, he lived 7 days. 7 days full of love and care. He might not have lived even 2 days if it hadn't been for you. God knows you did everything you could. 

Maybe there will be another little pigeon needing your help and love. Whether you decide to find another pigeon, or not, I know you will always carry the memory of that little pidggie.

Suzanne


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## Joshaway (May 23, 2003)

Thanks everyone for your comfort. This site has been a wonderful experience. We will check back in to see what's going on in the pigeon world, but we won't be going out to buy any pigeons to replace Peter. All of our pets are rescued animals and we just wait for whatever falls in our lap. Its more like they pick us. 

I did have something that I wanted to share still. When I was in labor with my first son, I was of course very frightened, but a pigeon sat on the window sill of my room throughout the day, and that gave me great comfort. It was like a sign to me. I have a special place in my heart for these peaceful birds, and now Peter has added to that.

Chris


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Awww.. That is so nice! Thanks for sharing it with us!

Mary



> Originally posted by Joshaway:
> *
> 
> I did have something that I wanted to share still. When I was in labor with my first son, I was of course very frightened, but a pigeon sat on the window sill of my room throughout the day, and that gave me great comfort. It was like a sign to me. I have a special place in my heart for these peaceful birds, and now Peter has added to that.
> ...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for sharing that.

Pigeons are amazingly peaceful birds. If ever I am upset about something I will sit in the aviary and hold one of them. It calms me immediately.

They also seem to know how to seek out the very people that will help them. As you recognise, all you have to do is wait until the pigeon that needs you finds you.









Cynthia


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about Peter. But you are so right about the Peace in a pigeon. I had one of mine attacked by a predator. I was just siting in the coop crying and this one came over and started nodding at me and giving me this look of comfort. It really helped me.

And it is true...they do seem to know who to go to for help. I hope this is the case with my missing birds and I know another will fall into your lap again, as you say. These birds have a way of affecting your heart for the better. Thanks for all you did for Peter and may you help many more in the future.


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## Poulette (Feb 5, 2002)

You are so right! My pigeon and my doves help me to calm my anxiety every day!
I love my doves!
Suzanne


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## PidgePidge (May 14, 2003)

One time we had just moved into a new house, and Pidge Pidge's cage was to be located downstairs in the living room. I was upstairs in my bedroom on my bed crying about something--I can't remember what. After a while I hear 'tap tap tap' of little pigeon footsies in the hallway-- Pidge Pidge had left his cage (door always open), and gone all the way through this house that he'd never been in before: across the dining room and living room, up the stairs, down the hall past three other rooms, and into my room, to stand at the foot of my bed and look up at me. He then flew up onto my bed, cooed and spun a few times, and nestled down into my comforter by my face and went to sleep. It was one of the sweetest things ever...

All of us who have been following your baby pigeon are sad to hear the news. Birds are such fragile creatures! But you did 500% more than so many other people would have, and Peter surely appreciated the effort. In the photos he was SO TINY, and delicate, and it would have been a challenge for any creature to pull him through that stage; you did the best that anyone could. At least you gave him the opportunity to pass away among friends, instead of alone, or as having never hatched at all!

With sympathy,
Jill


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## Mathew (Jun 16, 2002)

I'm very saddened to read about your loss.

I think it is so true that animals know who to turn to for help. Most all my pets are rescued as well (even the few I purchased at a pet store I consider rescued due to the circumstances). Don't you fear, another pigeon will come your way - word gets around fast!


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## ddpowell (May 16, 2003)

And on that note...All feral pigeons in the neighborhood would eat at my platform feeders twice a day. I hated abandoning them when we moved.







But anyway, whenever one was sick, they would actually come sit on my patio or on the deck or by the coop, as if asking for help. I don't know how many I helped that way. So they do know who to go to.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Chris,
So glad you have decided to check in when time permits.
We will look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks again for everything you & your family did for Peter. 
Cindy


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