# Sick pigeon



## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I've been seeing this pigeon for a couple of weeks around my area. I noticed from the start the fact he was always alone and he was disfigured by these growths around his beak. Today I noticed one of his wings is also drooping, and decided to take him with me - he wasn't running from me and I caught it fairly easy. I had given him some seed and watched him painfully eating for half an hour - as he can barely see and he's missing a lot. He's gone to drink from a box I set for him a week ago (it rained today so it was full of water). He seems to want to live. Last days I saw him he was flying - but today, with that drooping wing, I'm not sure. I actually stayed with him to see if he will fly, but he didnt and that's why I decided to put him in a safe place.

Question is - is there anything that can be done for him? Those things look terrible - one is almost covering an eye, the other is grown on the side of its beak so ha can't see much ahead. Other than that issue, he was pretty lively, albeit bedraggled.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2e30un6.jpg


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He has pigeonpox. Pox is a virus transmitted by infected mosquitoes. Unfortunately no medicine will help him, he will need supportive care to get through it. Those lesions will eventually get dry and fall off. This might take a couple of weeks. Sometimes they also get secondary infections like canker. Can you check in his beak towards the back for any yellowish growths? Canker can be treated with metronidazole.

If he can't see well enough to eat, try feeding him defrosted peas. You will have to put him on your lap facing to the right (if you are righthanded). Reach with your lefthand over his head and body and open the beak with those fingers. Have a pea ready in your righthand and put deep inside the beak. Give him time to swallow and proceed with the next one. If he spits it out, then you are not putting it in deep enough. Try to feed him 40 peas 3 times daily.

You can dip the tip of his beak (not over the nostrils) in a small bowl of water to get him to drink. Try to boost his immune system by adding apple cider vinegar (5 ml) to 1 l of his drinking water. Vitamins for pigeons that you can add to his water will also help.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

What does the other side of his head looks like? Sometimes they get the wet form of pox when the lesions starts growing inside the mouth. This is often fatal, especially when they can't eat or the growths starts intefering with their breathing.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He eats and drinks on his own, though he needs to peck stuff a couple of times to grab a seed. I put some seed on the sidewalk and watched him eating for about 15 mins before deciding to catch him. I thought that if I see him fly, I'll leave him be, but he didn't fly, he ate for a long time, then went to drink and came back to eat some more. I didn't try to force feed him tonight but I reckon he's pretty full atm. 

One side he's got the eye almost covered, the other eye is fine but he's got a large wart on the side of his beak and I assume he can't see ahead much. Basically he was looking at food sideways then "guessing" where it was - but I saw him swallow corn and peas and sunflower seed.

One more issue: I own 2 pet pigeons. What are the best measures to ensure no infection passes to them? the little dude is currently in a box on a closed balcony. I took a shower after I got him inside.

Edit: I have seen him like this first time I think around 2 weeks ago. He looked well (aside from the horrible lesions) then, but looks worse now, with that drooping wing. I'll check his throat for canker tomorrow, it's gotten dark now. I hope he appreciates not sleeping in the rain tonight at least. Will some vitamins help?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Pox is highly contagious, just give you hands a good wash after you have handled him. He will benefit from vitamins. Those growths might still grow for another week or 2 and then start drying up.

Put his seed in a deep dish, if he knows where the dish is, he will peck at random and be able to fill himself. You will know if he is eating enough by looking at his droppings. Must be brown. If green and small, then you know he is not eating enough.

Is he safe on the balcony? You will have to keep him for a while, try to get a small cage that you can put on a table to make him feel safe.

Sometimes canker is present without the growths in the beak. Excessive thirst is another symptom. If he drinks a lot of water and have watery droppings, then canker might be present.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

In all honesty I will try to handle him as little as possible, both to limit contagion and to not get him used to me. I'll only do it if I notice he needs feeding also for cleaning the box. He has a deep bowl of seed - its a mix for young pigeons with smaller seed. 

Balcony is safe, it's closed with glass. I put a plastic grill crate on top of the box so he doesn't try to fly out and hurt himself. Will any cream or treatment help his sores? I saw him trying to scratch them.

Is it safe to give him metronidazole just in case or I might harm him more if he doesn't really need it?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If he is eating well and there's no yellow growths towards the back of the beak, then don't treat for canker. If he seems to be eating less, starts drinking a lot of water, have watery droppings, then start treating him. Giving him antibiotics will just weaken his immune system. But if you suspect canker, he will definitely need treatment. He needs a boost now with vitamins in the water and good food. Have you got canker meds if needed? He will need 50 mg once a day after feeding for about 10 days.

Those growths must be very itchy for them, it's best to just leave it alone. Some people put iodine on to help them dry up quicker, but don't put on close to the eyes.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I just cleaned his box and while there was some spilled seed around, there was less than a third seed in the bowl (you can see in the first pic how much it was initially) and his crop felt firm. His poops are solid but on the green side, so I re-filled the bowl to monitor how much he eats. He doesn't seem overly interested in water, there was just a little missing. I've put him some vinegar water for now, I'll alternate with vitamins. 

The sores don't appear wet themselves, but there was a drop of liquid on one of them so they could be wet inside? They also bleed a little, probably where he scratched. What does that mean?

I sprayed him yesterday with some anti-insects spray I have - it's chrysantemum extract according to the label. I have it since I got my own pigeons, which are rescues, and they didn't have a bad reaction to it. Yesterday I could see stuff crawling on him. However, given the fact that you said insects spread the disease, I felt the need to tale stronger measures in the parasite removal and went to the animal pharmacy and asked for ivermectine, as I've been told here it's safe for pigeons. They had pills for dogs and cats and a solution they put in cats and dogs ears, and they had also used for budgies. We agreed on the drops, and since the dosage was one drop/kilo of animal, I suggested I just dab a little behind his head with an earbud. They told me ivermectine is highly toxic and to make sure the dabbing is done where they can't reach with their beaks (hence the back of the head). I was somewhat confused at this point, because I was told here Ivermectine is safe as an internal treatment. Anyway, he has been lightly dabbed at the back of his head. 

As long as his poops look solid and he eats, I'd rather not give him antibiotics. I'll alternate the vinegar water with vitamins. Would methylene blue help? Somebody also gifted me some fancy electrolytes for pigeons satchels but I noticed they are a few months out of date so I'm not sure about those.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Ok, just monitor him. As long as he is eating well, you can just keep an eye on him. Just want to make sure: the vinegar should be apple cider vinegar, not ordinary vinegar.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

It is apple and honey vinegar. We don't want the industrial stuff for ourselves either, although god knows what they put in food nowadays.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Heya,

Things seemed to be going well until today - pigeon was eating and the wing looked straighter - but today I noticed he drank more water and he's making these little swallowing like movements. I'm now worried  . What can I do?
He also looks like crying - at least what looks like a tear from his good eye.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Start treatment for canker. Drinking lots of water and doing repeated swallowing are both signs of canker. Can you get hold of metronidazole. Meditrich from Medpet is the best to use. Give him 50mg once a day on a full crop for about 10 days. Those growths must be a nuisance so close to the eye.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will not be able to get US medicines in my country (Romania)
I looked for "metronizadole for pigeons" and this is what was suggested:
FLAGELSTOP 50 G : active substances: Metronidazol 10 g/100 g; Vitamina C 10 g/100 g

It's administered in the water, 10g/liter, which is for 20 pigeons, prepared daily, for 7 days

There is also ENTEROGUARD - but prospect says its not recommended under 4 weeks, and I'm not sure how old he is.

Then COLUMBOVIOFORT F 40 CP - which is pills, contains 10 mg metronidazole and a bunch of vitamins. This is 3 pills/day/400 grams weight.

Or Tricoplus: ronidazol, diclazuril, dextroză and B1 vitamin.

Apparently metronidazole has side effects and it was replaced in newer medicines with ronidazole. I don't know which of these I will find in the pharmacy here and ordering online would take a few days, which is probably not good.

Is the water treatment alright? 

As for those sores, one of his eyes is under them completely. He can only use one eye. I wonder if that will ever recover :S.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He really need a med that can be given to him in his beak. Putting something in the water isn't great as you cannot be sure of how much he has gotten. Also, you want a drug that isn't mixed with anything else. Once the pox is cleared, his eyes will probably be fine.
Do you have stores there for tropical fish? Sometimes they sell a med for fish which is called Fishzole. That can be used if it doesn't contain anything else but the Metronidazole.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Yes, we have petshops, and I'll check if they keep metronidazole in some form. Otherwise, as I know from friends hobby-ists (I'm a fish keeper), they use human pharmacy metronidazole. I personally never used it, as I didn't get anything treatable with it, so I have no experience. I'm just afraid I won't be able to dose properly something that is not intended for pigeons. 

I'm somewhat encouraged by the fact that he seems to be eating quite well - I clean his box once a day and every time I checked, his crop was quite firm and food was missing. He's not been drinking particularly lots before today, which was the 2nd day I gave him vitamins in the water. I reverted to vinegar water today.

Edit: I checked Fishzole, it is 250 mg metronidazole, exactly same as the human medicine. That is probably why hobbyists use it as such. However, I have no idea how will I divide a pill in 25 parts, as I see pigeon medicines use 10 mg of it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The dose is 30 mg for a squeaker or very young pigeon, not 10 mg, once daily. For an adult it's 50 mg once daily. You can divide a tablet in quarters for an adult, that would be fine. Won't hurt them. for a squeaker or very young pigeon, you would take the quarters and divide again. Even if you can't divide the small quarter, just shave off about half and toss it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

My patient is a squeaker (he literally squeaks when I pick him up). He's pretty light, I assume he didn't get a lot of food half blind on the street. I will see about metronidazole in the morning, I'm just really scared of giving birds antibiotics, the last 2 cases I tried to medicate both died. I wake up every morning fearing I'll find him dead, like it happened to the other two I wanted to rescue this summer  .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Madonkin, you have started a post on this, so can you delete this comment? Thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Saphira, can you post a pic of him?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will take one in the morning. There is one in the first post, but I assume you want a fresh one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can't tell his size from that. What does he weigh?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I took some detail picture, but word of warning, don't look at them if you have a sensitive heart (at least not the first pic, that is a bit brutal). He seems to have broken the sore that covers his eye today and it looks messy. It was fully sealed yesterday, I can see a little of his eye in the breaking today. That is where the liquid from his feathers is, he was dry yesterday. Shouldn't I dab it with something to try keep it from infecting?

http://oi67.tinypic.com/308goit.jpg
http://oi66.tinypic.com/244wrv9.jpg
http://oi67.tinypic.com/1zyips3.jpg
http://oi67.tinypic.com/350jeok.jpg

He weighs 270-ish grams, by my kitchen counter. He gave me a vigorous wing slap.
Also, I looked down his throat today, and there is no yellow stuff, it's clean, but the sore on the good eye side is partially in his mouth too. This morning was a bit chilly outside, and I closed the window, and in the silence following I could hear a faint whistle in his breath.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The droppings does not look to bad, he has definitely been eating. Just dab the excess water from his eye with a piece of cottonwool. Can you also put a brick inside the box, they like to perch on something.

As long as the yellow growth in his mouth does not cover the opening to the trachea and starts intefering with his breathing, he will be ok. Give him between 40 and 50 mg of metro, if necessary. If he is still eating well, keep on monitoring him for now. In the meantime, get hold of the antibiotics so that you have it just in case it needs to be given.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I clean his box once a day, so that's half the poop. They felt a bit more solid when I brought him in. Is @50 ml of water daily normal for him? I heard people use garlic in water for immunity, is that of some use?
If I'm to use regular pharmacy metronidazole, that's basically downstairs, but I'll get some just in case. 

Do you think he would appreciate a bath? He sure needs one, especially after he broke that sore today, all his neck feathers on that side are matted. I can blow dry him to not get cold. I remember my pet pigeon disliked his first kinda forced bath (he was giving no signs of interest so I shoved him in the bathtub and sprinkled him lightly with the shower) but he enjoyed the blow drying.

I'm not sure where to find a brick but I'll improvise something.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

No, don't bath him. That will just stress him out more. Just wipe him down with a wet cloth. Normally pigeons drink about 30-40 ml per day, so 50 ml is not too much. Garlic won't harm him. You can chop a piece in half and let it soak overnight in his drinking water. Next morning you can remove the pieces and let him have that water to drink.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Droppings look fine considering everything. I would do as Marina suggested and clean off the wet feathers with a wet cloth. Be sure to use very good handwashing after handling him. 
The Metronidazole from the pharmacy is the same thing they sell for pigeons. I usually buy the 250 mg, as I get more that way by quartering them. Would be good to have it on hand. Human or for birds=same thing. If you are going to give garlic, I don't think it really helps anything, and many birds don't like it, so I wouldn't give it more often than a couple times a week. Vitamins and probiotics would be more helpful, with a few drops of ACV in his drinking water a couple times a week.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll give him a wipe in the afternoon, when I clean his box. He's preening himself, saw him every day doing it, but only so much he can do.
I noticed temperatures dropped in the night time (around 15 degrees Celsius), so yesterday I've closed the window, and he seemed more perky in the morning. Yesterday he was all fluffed up, maybe from the cold too. 

I won't insist with the garlic, just gave him that water today and I'll replace it tomorrow. I've been alternating vitamins and apple vinegar but he started pooping more watery after 2 days of vitamins and I thought maybe from those too? I know they don't like garlic, I've bought last year this rather expensive garlic oil for pigeons and it just went out of date, my pigeons wouldn't touch the seed with only 1-2 drops of the thing. Truth is it smelled horrendous of garlic, made my whole home stink. These are the vitamins I'm giving him: http://www.veterinara.ro/Polivit-Solutie - site is in romanian but composition is pretty self explanatory in any language.

I fashioned him a perch from a shoebox lid wrapped in a towel and he perched on it last night for sleeping. It's not very tall but it's at least wide enough for him to turn around on it. He seems to favor sitting on it all the time. 

I will have antibiotics at hand, I'm not one of those crazy people that try to replace antibiotics with tea, I'm just reluctant to give them until it's clear he's sick. It's been a very mixed experience for me giving birds antibiotics, especially already weak ones. Would also really like to deworm him but have not found yet a safe solution.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sounds like he is doing well, he is obviously in good hands! Wait with the deworming until he is healthy again.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Deworming meds are toxic, so I don't like to worm a bird who is already down, unless I have a good reason to believe that it is worms causing it.
I don't know what you have there for deworming, so don't know if it is safe or not. 
Do you have any of these? 
Pyrantel Pamoate
- Praziquantel
Moxidectin
ivermectin


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I know dewormers are toxic, that is why I wasn't in a hurry to stuff him with something. I did take heed of one of your advises in another topic and looked for ivermectin - but here it's sold as medicine or ear drops for cats and dogs and I was told it's highly toxic, and to only use 1 drop/kilo on bird dabbed in a place they can't reach with their beaks, because if they swallow it, they are dead. I dabbed an earbud in the solution and dabbed him behind the head to at least get rid of external parasites. I was highly concerned about those since I've been told the pox is highly contagious and it's spread by insect bites - and while I can wash my hands after handling him (I actually time his cleaning before my shower, and take a shower), there is little I can do about insects. So, he's been given a small dose of ivermectin externally (was told another application should not happen before minimum 2 weeks).

Pyrantel Pamoate
Praziquantel - I found these in several medications available here, recommended a lot seems one called Total - 250 mg pills

Active subst: Praziquantel 25 mg; Pyrantel 72 mg;
Excipients (lactoză, amidon, PVP K30, aerosil, talc, avicel, stearat de magneziu) ad 250 mg.

Again, it's intended for dogs and cats, it has no dosage for pigeons.

I found some shops with pigeon stuff but none found so far actually give the composition of the drugs and the name isn't particularly relevant.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

His poops seem to be getting more watery, which urged me to look for possible disease other than canker causing it. Forgive my insistence, but could it be salmonella? Amongst the signs of it are:
Subcutaneous abscesses occur allover the body but usually below the eye as a small swelling containing hard, yellow and dry pus. Often that will be the only sign - this looks a lot like the stuff that covers one of his eyes, which does not look like the pox sores.

Infectious arthritis is seen as a swelling in the shoulder joint of an affected wing or as lameness caused by an infected joint in the foot or leg. The “ankle” joint is a favourite location. Pigeons with an infected wing joint droop the wing and tremble from the pain. The wing can even touch the floor hanging. The articular infection type is the most common type in a chronic Salmonella disease. - he does have some swelling in the droopy wing, and he does drop the wing. 

The poop did become greenish-yellow, it was darker in the start. 

I know it should be determined by a doctor, but no vet here treats pigeons, and nobody will look at him the way he looks anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Ivermectin is used here with no problems.

581 Ivomectin Drench Liquid 8 oz 
Used to treat worms and parasites. It is not advisable to give to birds that are very ill. The drench is meant to be used in the drinking water at the rate of 8 cc/ml to a gallon for one day and then repeat in 10-12 days. The 0.5% is used for individual birds, 3 or 4 drops down the mouth, then repeat in 10-12 days. The 1% may be used down the mouth at the rate of 2-3 drops, then repeat in 10-12 days. The 1% is also used by many to rid the birds of external blood sucking parasites by rubbing a few drops on the foot.
https://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/worms-wormers/581-ivomectin-drench-liquid-8-oz

The bird has pox, and that is most likely his only problem. He isn't going to look well until it passes.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Decided to take him to a doctor, just in case, I figured that wing needs checking anyway. 

Bad news. While he doesn't appear to have salmonella or anything else obvious, both his wings are broken. I have no idea what I'll do. I can't keep him, he will be forever a pox carrier, and I have 2 healthy pigeons. Nobody will want him. If he can't fly, he won't have a chance outside.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Is that what the vet said: that he will be a pox carrier for the rest of his life? That's nonsense! When those lesions dry up and fall off, he will be fine just like any other pigeon. And the good news is: once they had pox and recovered from it, they will never ever get it again. 

It's also possible that only the one wing is broken. I'm just glad you did not had him euthanized, would have been a pity after all the effort you have put in and he deserves to live.

So my advice to you will be to just continue what you are doing now. It will take weeks for him to recover, you will just need to be patient. When all those growths are gone, he can join your pigeons and still have a good life even if he can't fly anymore.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

It wasn't what the vet said, I read it in some article from a breeder and the vet didn't deny it. It's possible he doesn't know the disease in detail, he's not specialized. Are you sure it is not the case? I care about my pigeons a lot, I'd be miserable to put them in danger. 

And anyway, would my pair accept a stranger? Especially if it's another male? I don't have a loft, I live in an apartment and my pigeons are unreleasable rescues (they became too used to humans before they were releasable).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Marina is right. Once over the virus, it is gone. No such thing as being carriers of it. That's crazy. You may be thinking about Salmonella, as that can be the case if you don't wipe out the carrier state. But not Pox. As far as your pair, no they may not want another bird around, at least not caged with them. Singles and pairs don't mix well. They should be kept in pairs if possible. Pigeons do get used to new pigeons however if they have enough room. How do you keep your pair? In a cage?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

My pigeons have never been caged. They have the entire apartment to themselves aside from the kitchen - which has a door that autocloses, and the balcony where I keep the little dude. Yes, it's messy, but I learned to deal with it. 

The fact that he won't be a carrier is really good news. I read about it in a breeder's forum, and I noticed they tend to sacrifice birds easily to keep their team strong. The general idea is that birds that got sick are weak to begin with and their offspring won't be quality racers either. Obviously, that is not a concern for me. 

He's still not out of the woods. Poop is still watery (but not bad smelling). Then again, my own pigeons' poop is often watery and since they gave no other signs of disease, I learned to just put it on the hemp treats. I did give some hemp to the little guy the last 2 days too. Or maybe it's from something else in the food? He continues to eat quite well. To think he somehow survived almost blind and with broken wings - that little dude is a fighter (or dudette, no idea what the gender is). 

Doctor told me to wipe his sores with a little glycerine to soften them and make them peel off easier. Is that okay? In all honesty I'd like to clean that eye a little, but the stuff is hardened and can't be wiped properly. He scratches it and I fear an infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Most just let them dry, which is what you want, and they will fall off. I wouldn't use glycerine to soften them. You want them to dry up.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's got bits of dirt and feathers stuck in the sore covering his eye. I couldn't peel those off, as they are stuck - those I would have liked to soften a little in order to clean them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Try a warm damp cloth.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I did, but it's hardened in all kinds of spikes and ridges and cloth just kept getting caught in them, with no effect on the softening part. If it's not harmful in any way, I'd like to try it just for the cleaning purposes, then leave them to dry.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Have you tried using a earbud, or q-tip? Just keep on dipping the small end in lukewarm water and work those hardened areas till they soften up.

If you can't keep him after recovery, start a new thread regarding adoption. There must be other members from your country on this forum.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Insisted with a makeup pad for a while, some of the dirt seemed to come off, not the bits of feathers, but I'll try cleaning it so daily. I wiped his chest until the feathers unclumped. 

I also decided to move him in an open crate near the window - basically where I kept him every day while cleaning his box. I noticed he was peering out the window, so figured he would have some occupation. Checked him fairly often to ensure he didn't try to jump, but all he did was climb on his food box - so I moved his perch there too. He's been watching outside the window for a few hours, which had him more lively than the usual nap/preen routine. 

I fear an infection at that eye, it's constantly oozing liquid. 

For the adoption part, slim chances. Pigeons are regarded as pests here, not pets. I don't know any other person that has pet pigeons other than me, or would keep one in the house. Breeders will not want him. Sure I'll post, no harm in that, but I don't have high hopes. 

Is there any limitation to how often I should give him ACV? I'm alternating vitamins/ACV, but don't want to overdo it with either. Regretting I didn't measure his weight when I got it, to see if he's gaining any.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would only add a few drops of ACV to the drinking water a couple of times a week.
Nothing you can do about the eye till the pox passes. Just leave it alone and let it dry out.
You can carefully wipe where it oozes with a damp cloth. Also, he should be in a cage or something that he can't fall or jump from. He can get injured.

The vet didn't try to wrap the wings into a better position? It could help them to heal better and would probably make him more comfortable, rather than just hanging.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I asked the vet if the wings could be fixed in a proper position, he told me he can't really. He considered some kind of bandage, but concluded it wouldn't really help. Only one of them hangs, and he can stretch both of them upwards - you know how they do that vertically wing stretch? Never seen him stretching them open wide, as my pigeons do (they have that tail fanning, one wing stretching wide open, then upwards, then another tail fanning, then the other wing wide open). He can fold the one that hangs, but it probably doesn't have a lot of strength.

I wiped the eye a bit, and cleaned his neck and chest feathers, they were all clumped from the liquid oozing from the eye. He was pretty collaborative this time, just watching out the window, unlike last time when he struggled like a maniac.

I was afraid of him getting injured too, but he's really not interested in moving around much. His walking feels stiff too, and I've never seen him sit. He's got sores on his feet too, though much smaller. Still, I'm going to be out of town tomorrow, so I decided I can't leave him unsupervised like that, and fashioned him a window in the box - I cut it at the side of the box and he can watch outside, which he did as soon as I moved him back. He seemed pretty content.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Still having the watery poop problem and he is drinking more water, up to 100 ml a day. His sores seem to be starting to dry but the diarrhea is worrying. He drank a lot of saturday, and I thought it might have been from the heat, as it's been a hot day, but he's drank a lot yesterday and today too. I just checked his throat, it's still clean, other than the sore partially grown in his mouth. He's still eating - seems to have a preference for corn, as all corn I put is gone next day, even if it's a rather large seed. Any advise about what I could do against diarrhea?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I washed his feet today, felt the crop empty. Took some pics of the poop.
http://oi65.tinypic.com/f3zv4k.jpg
http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ynq7uv.jpg


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If he is drinking more water and eating less, start treating for canker. Canker does not always show up in the throat. Lack of appetite and drinking lots of water are symptoms.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

1/6 of a metronidazole pill/day?
How many days should I do it?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He will need 40 - 50 mg once daily for about 7 to 10 days. You can just cut the pill to the correct size and put the piece deep inside his beak for him to swallow. Even if there is an improvement after 3 days, you must continue with treatment, otherwise you won't get rid of the canker completely. Let us know how he is doing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The droppings could be from drinking so much. He may also have Coccidiosis. May need treatment for that.
Do you put him outside? He needs to be kept inside.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He is not kept outside, indoors only. I open the window during the day, if it's warm outside, but close it during the night, since it's chilly already. He stays in the box that can be seen in the photo, except when I clean it - which is when I took the pic, and he stays in a crate near. 

Which should I treat for? I am afraid of giving him the wrong treatment.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, fingers crossed, gave him metronidazole. How fast should I see any change to know if it's working?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Usually within 3 days, sometimes longer. Remember to do the full course of antibiotics, even if he seems better by day 3, otherwise the canker will just return. Hope he gets better, let us know how he is doing.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Should I do something about Coccidiosis now, or wait to see if the metronidazole has any effect?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Only treat for canker now and see if it makes a difference.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm concerned about giving him a probiotic with those antibiotics, but the two veterinary pharmacies I went to gave me vitamins and said they don't have anything else. On a wild hunch, googled chefir for pigeons and it seems people do use it as a probiotic - so I gave my little guy 0.5 ml with a syringe after the pill. Good idea, bad idea? What else I could use instead?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I always give probiotic and apple cider vinegar in the drinking water every day when I have a bird on antibiotics. Try to get probiotics for pigeons, its a product you can also give to your other pigeons to keep them healthy.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Try to get the kind you mix with the drinking water, much safer than to give with a syringe that can cause aspiration.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will look for some decent products and order online, it just might take a few days to arrive and I figured it would be pretty bad to wait so much. Any particular composition I should look for?

As I'm not sure what I know as chefir is what you know: it's a kind of yoghurt sold here for humans. The milk part is what has me worried, as pigeons don't naturally drink milk (although I remember my grandmother raising baby chicken healthier by adding cottage cheese to their feed. She was also giving them nettle tea to drink, though I have no recollection what for - maybe for the iron content? We cook nettles and eat them in the spring for same purposes). I've heard some people growing kefir in water, but I will not be able to get it readily, usually people share the mushroom when they have extras.

Regarding the pox sores, will the fall off by themselves? The really ugly one of the side of his face seems drying, but being so big, I'm not sure how to deal with it, it doesn't look it will fall off itself.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Some people think it is a waste of time giving probiotics during antibiotic treatment and only do it afterwards when treatment is finished. So I think you must order anyway, even if it takes a couple of days to get to you. Some people do give a bit of yochurt (without added sugar) to help restore the good gut bacteria. Just keep on putting apple cider vinegar in his drinking water every day, this will help prevent a yeast infection.

The growths will eventally fall off, will just take time.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, he's already got a nasty case of diarrhea, those antibiotics are probably wrecking further havoc on his stomach. We take probiotics with antibiotics, why wouldn't they? A friend gave me some satchels of Recup-lyt from Versele-Laga, but they are 6 months out of date and I'm reluctant to use them. They are electrolytes.

I have a bit of a problem however: I must travel tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. I can give him the antibiotic tomorrow before I leave, around noon, but I will be returning late in the evening on friday. Will it be a big problem to delay it so?

Thank you a lot for your patience and support by the way.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So the dose on Friday will only be a couple of hours later than usual. Don't think that will make a difference. Only a pleasure helping.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Use Greek yogurt with the live bacteria. It is strained many times and therefore has less lactose in it, and also the live bacteria help to break down the lactose. So it won't hurt him any, and would be good for him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's in the 6th day of metronidazole, but I see no improvement. He stays puffed up a lot and looks like he's cold. I saw him occasionally shake his head. Some sores that were small grew bigger. Poops are still watery. He still drinks a fair bit.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Only thing you can do now will be to continue with the metronidazole. Sometimes it does take up to 14 days to get rid of canker. Is there any way to keep him warm? I put my patients in a cage with a lightbulb hanging down inside the cage with their perch underneath the bulb. When cold, they would sit right underneath the bulb to get some heat.

Is he still eating ok? Have you checked recently inside his beak?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I think I found something that might help a little: he's been cooped up in that box for almost 3 weeks without direct sunlight. The balcony has plenty of light, but it's through glass. I opened the window and he's getting a nice sunbath now. He actually sat down and is looking relaxed.

The balcony is warm and I close the window at night. It's not actually cold there. I have not checked inside his beak these days, will do when I go to give him the pill and clean his box. Since I had to give it to him at midnight when I traveled, I've been gradually reducing the hour when I give it to him. I'm also leaving him to enjoy the sun while it's in that place.

He is eating, I hear him occasionally and the bowl gets empty in like 2 days without a lot of spilling, but whenever I check his crop, it feels empty. He does poop a fair bit. I considered forcefeeding him and we gave him a few ml of paste last night with a syringe, but he seemed to hate it. The water has vitamins and trace elements, I bought some good quality ones to give to my own pigeons too (but they are not touching the stuff and sneakily drink tank water). I also bought some medicine that's supposed to be for coccidiosis too - namely this: https://www.belgicadeweerd.com/en/products/powder/b-s/, but I don't know when and if I should give him more antibiotics. That medicine contains ronidazole and amprolium.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Gave him the pill and checked his throat. The throat itself is clean but he does have a yellow edge where the pox sore is. It looks like its the sore inside the beak, lighter in colour. Can canker grow on the pox sores? The edge was there before too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The amprolium is for cocci and the ronidazole for canker. I don't know what the amounts of each drug are that he would be getting. I don't generally like combo drugs because often there isn't enough of any one drug to cure anything. I would finish the Metro treatment first. It's probably just the pox that you are seeing.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

How long should I give metronidazole? I really hate giving it to him. He had his 7th dose today and I saw him after making some swallowing/choking/vomiting movement that scared the **** out of me. He seemed to sleep normally after.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Usually about 10 days does it, but it can take longer. Canker can make him vomit as can other things. Also, Metro can sometimes make them vomit if given on an empty crop, so better to feed them first before medicating. Just be sure to get the pill way to the back of his throat and over the tongue.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He didn't actually vomit, he just opened his beak a few times like swallowing something hard. I don't even know if he actually has canker. We wanted to feed him when giving him the pill but because of those sores it's pretty hard to keep him in place and he struggles badly. He seems alright now (well, as alright as he seems every day), but I am afraid every morning I will find him dead.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No, you don't know for sure that he has canker. You would need to have him tested by an avian vet, or at least a vet who know birds, to be sure. Without that, you can only try to figure it out by his symptoms and what the most common things they get are. So you do the best you can. And you try to eliminate things that it might be. Canker is very common and easily treated, but they can die if ill with it and not treated. Cocci is also common and they can also die from it if not treated. Worms can also make a bird very sick. Then there is salmonella, e-coli, yeast, and many others. We have to start someplace. So we start with the most common and easily treated and go on from there. 
You are doing the best you can without a definite answer to what it is. If he presents with any new symptoms please let us know. It may help to narrow it down.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Wait in the morning until he has finished eating and then give him the meds. Then at least you don't have to forcefeed him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Unfortunately, due to my trip, I had to give him his medicine in the night, so if I give it to him in the morning, it will be barely half a day since his last - wouldn't that be extra toxic? I did something like 12.00 pm on Friday night, 9 pm on Saturday night, 6 pm yesterday to get the hours back to more normal time.

Sadly, I don't have an avian vet that could test him properly. No vet I found treats pigeons, and the guy at the university that was helping me occasionally finished his contract there and left. I made a little movie with him, maybe you can see more relevant details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJPAo4TN2Hs&feature=youtu.be

Today is cold and cloudy, so I took a heating panel in the balcony to warm the place a bit.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor pigeon, those growths are horrible. But they look pretty much dried up, so they will loosen up every time he scratches his head against his body and will eventually fall off.

Those missing feathers on the neck area is another sign of canker. Continue with the treatment.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We force fed him @5 ml of paste we made with hemp, flax seed and chickpeas with a little chefir mixed in and water and then gave him the pill. Those were bio grade flours we had around the house. Sadly no sunbath today, it rained all day. I left him the heating panel on all day. Anything I could give him to protect his liver?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did you take the video down? If I try to pull it up, it just says that the video doesn't exist.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Didn't take it down, works normally for me, but I switched it to "public", maybe being unlisted was a problem.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I was able to view the video on my computer, had to right click and then "open link in new tab". If he is still eating well, then he must have food in his crop by the time you give him the pill in the evening.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks Marina. That worked. 
Saphira, the only time I see my birds doing that is when there is something in their throat, or something irritating their throat. Sometimes when they are molting they will do that too, as they get those sheaths from the feathers in their beaks I think. Usually something irritating the throat though.Have you looked waaaay down the throat with a flashlight?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I did not look with a flashlight, no. I'm not sure how I'll do that since I need both my hands to open his beak, but I'll see about it. He does have that lump on his crop that you can see from outside, and you can also feel it upon touch. He doesn't constantly do those movements, I just happened to film them then. Most of the time he stays fluffed and naps or watches outside. Still, he does do occasionally movements that indicate something is bothering him - could be the pox growth in his beak or something deeper in the throat.

The reason I think he's eating is because I hear/see him at the food bowl at least 3 times a day, and the food in the bowl goes down. However, while in the first week I could always feel his crop full, from the 2nd week that didn't see to happen anymore. He does have something, just not full. I've been meaning to weigh him and see if he's taken any (doesn't really feel so) but my kitchen counter ran out of batteries and I didn't have the time to go get others.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can tell if he is eating enough if he is making enough droppings. He could also just be picking at the seed and tossing it around without eating much.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The lump you are seeing and that's visible in the video, is part of the trachea. It always becomes more prominent when the feathers are missing and the crop is empty.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Although today has been really chilly and windy, I decided to give him a bit of fresh air and whatever sun was peaking through the clouds in the afternoon. He seems to be more lively when left in the open, and he had a decently filled crop when I gave him the pill a little later. I'll try to give him at least half an hour of fresh air daily.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Just gave him his pill and force fed him a little. When I put him back he swayed on a side and sat down, shaking his head. I'm dreading the morning.

There is no change in good to his state after 10 days of metronidazole. Is it possible something else is killing him? What about that coccidiosis? Would it be safe to switch his medication that medicine that treats coccidiosis too?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How is he doing? I would continue with the meds for another 4 days. Just read an article on the internet regarding pox being treated by crushed garlic and honey. The ratio 1:1. The pigeon was treated for 7 days and showed an improvement after 3 days. The garlic and honey was crushed together with a pestle and mortar. This mixture was put on the growths and then rinsed after 20 min with distilled water. The pigeon was also fed 1/2 teaspoon of this mixture twice daily.

Don't know if you want to try this, I sometimes think one underestimates the value of garlic. I have no experience with coccidiosis, so can't give advice regarding that.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's alive, thanks god. I left the heating on for him last night. The poops he made during night are more solid, but they still have a weird yellow-green colour and are sort of ...sandy in appearance? 

I can try the garlic and honey thing, we got both around the house. Only one of those sores looks like it's drying up, the rest seem unchanged after 3 weeks. I did give him garlic water once in the start. I should also be getting those probiotics I ordered one of these days, they called me yesterday to tell me what I ordered is not in stock and asked if they can replace with something else.

I was trying to read about coccidiosis last night and it was said poops have a bad smell from it. His poops smell normal.

My own pigeons poop watery and messy half the times but I got to not worry much about it, because they are active and look healthy. With the little dude however, I feel a lot more worried. I assume being locked in a box doesn't help. When I got my own pigeon, he was free to roam around the house.


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## Sam123 (Feb 13, 2018)

I have a Wood pigeon which i found when it was really windly i have kept it warm and feed it pigeon seeds and water the next day i seen it had vomited it all out. I then brought canery seeds and it has done the same what can i give him and he keeps putting his head down he has had water


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sam123, I hope you find help for your pigeon, but it's better you open a new topic to get more replies.

My pigeon did something ...strange yesterday. I had a late meeting so we missed the afternoon sun. Still I try to give him open air daily, at least while I clean his box, and yesterday was pretty warm outside. So I open the window, move him on top of the box (in a crate) and get to cleaning. Meanwhile, my husband was preparing his food so we give him the medicine too. We had a blackout and it was getting dark so I had to help my husband for a couple of minutes. When I got back, pigeon was gone from the crate. I thought he's jumped off outside. He had instead jumped down in his box and had tucked in for sleep. More impressing is that he had a pretty narrow place to get in, and not topple over the food bowl and water jar. 

He still has 3 more days of antibiotics. Meanwhile the probiotics arrived and he's had some in his water. Poops are still on the watery side but less on the bright green side today. I saw him stretching his wings up this morning.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sounds good. Just be careful exposing him to the outside, if he did jump to the outside, he will die out there. Did you started the garlic and honey? Must be messy to feed to him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's not very mobile/daring, and I never miss more than 1 minute - but yes, I'll be more careful. 

I had to give him the medicine alone today, my husband is traveling - which means I couldn't feed him. I tasted the metronidazole out of curiosity, damn it's bitter. He's spent a few good hours in the afternoon sun, as it's been warm today and I opened the window early (I have some bars I can block his box with). The sores seem to be drying, but his general state doesn't seem to improve. I noticed him breathing with his beak slightly open, which doesn't look good to me. It's not constant, but enough to be noticeable. I still can't see anything suspicious down his throat. Regarding the sores, I have no idea how they will fall off, the one that's dried feels rock hard and well anchored to his face.

I didn't get to do the garlic and honey, as I've had a fair bit of work today. I'll try it tomorrow. Also thinking to get some frozen peas for him. Feeding him with the syringe is messy idd, and he doesn't seem to like the stuff much. Maybe peas will work better.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I prepared the garlic thing today, can't say it ends up like a paste, more like a sticky juice with chunks in it. I dribbled it on his face sores, he's probably gonna clean it off tomorrow when he drinks water, I couldn't really do much about removing it. Is it supposed to soften those things?

Tomorrow is his 14th day of metronidazole. Unfortunately, I noticed no improvement, if anything, he got weaker. He eats less and wobbles on his feet. Today I force fed him about 20 defrosted peas. What should I do next? I tried to get amprolium for maybe coccidiosis, but the place I ordered called me to tell me they don't have it in stock and offered me the same combo with ronidazole I already have. Should I try that? I just can't tell if it's coccidiosis either, I read that poop should smell bad and have some blood, but it doesn't. He just has a constant diarrhea and seems to eat less.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would stop the Metro and give probiotics for a few days. Then try the other med.
Meanwhile he needs to be fed by hand. If not eating or drinking enough he will get weaker. It could be his not eating or drinking that is making him worse. It doesn't always have blood in it. I would think it would smell bad though. Could be worms too. You may need to worm him. I don't like to worm a sick bird, but you may need to.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Saphira, first of all, I want to tell you that your dedication in helping this poor bird is admirable. 

I'm really sorry to hear that he is getting worse. I don't know if that can be helpful but here is a link about candidiasis in birds (not specific to pigeons):

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=3090

A primary infection like pox and an antibiotic treatment could increase the risk of developing candidiasis. Diarrhea and breathing difficulties could be symptoms of it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Without a vet check it is impossible to know what it could be, so you can only try to treat for the more common things. Unfortunately many of them have the same symptoms.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I was thinking about an old thread because the poster lives in Romania. I looked for it:
https://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/#/topics/111857?page=1 

I know that it's a big country but in case you live in the same area maybe this member could help you to find a vet who could run tests (the person who adopted the pigeon had his own vet. This vet tested the bird for PMV). You could try to send a PM, that's just an idea of course....


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I tried to see the topic you linked but it just opens a list of topics to me and I can't tell which one you mean. It would be a great help for me to find a place where I can test samples.

Regarding the little dude, I grew attached to him. Such a small thing to have had so much bad luck.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

This is the title (I'm sorry, I don't know why the link doesn't work) Advice on how/when to release a rehabilitated bird
It's a thread of March 2018, the member is called camelias.

Poor bird, at least he had the luck to meet you. I imagine how much you love him, I hope that member can help you.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I found and read the topic, but no way to tell where the person is from, nor where they found a place to get their pigeon tested. I asked in a local breeders fb group, so far I only got some likes (fat good those do).


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes, the member didn't tell where is located in Romania but you could try to send a private message, maybe she/he will read it and reply to you. I understand that you don't want to bother her/him but you could explain that it's an emergency.

Have you tried to contact an animal association? They could know an avian vet.

How is the pigeon doing today?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's doing as usual, puffed up and mostly sleeping. Sometimes he preens himself but not much else he can do in a box. I wish I could offer him some movement, but I am too afraid to spread the pox to my own pigeons and the only closed rooms are the bathrooms, which are poorly lit. Currently the sun is out so I opened his window so he can get some.

That person said he took the pigeon to a breeder in the country side. I doubt they know exactly where the testing would be done. However, I may have a lead here, somebody pointed me to a veterinarian state dept. I'll call tomorrow and see if they can help me.

The vet I took him to is from a bird organisation. They don't however have a place in my town - and I doubt they would take a pigeon anyway. They deal mostly with wild birds. There's people dealing with stray cats and dogs adoptions, but people here don't take pigeons as pets.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you giving him the probiotics?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Yes, I'm preparing them daily, in the morning for a couple of days, as I realized they might not be as good after a night. Yesterday I hand fed him about 20 peas.

That veterinary thing apparently requires me to go with a dead bird or a sick bird. I'm kinda reluctant about going with him, I'm afraid they will just want to put him down or straight down refuse to bother with a stray sick pigeon. The place is meant for farmers. I'll call a bit later and see if they handle pigeons usually.

Edit: forgot to mention, he seems to be drinking less than he was at some point. Probably @40-50 ml a day.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Have you called there? I understand your concern, if you suspect that they will just euthanize him or refuse to visit him, don't go there. Unfortunately even here many vets refuse to treat pigeons even if you pay for the visit (I had some bad experiences...), don't know nothing about them or just euthanize them...

Probably it's not helpful but I sent a pm to that member. At worst, she/he can't help or will never read my pm. I was thinking that even if this vet has his clinic in a different area from where you live, he could maybe know other vets who test pigeons.

Clay could help in case of watery poop. You could try to look online for a picking block containing clay, something similar to this one for example:

http://www.gardenfeathers.co.uk/pigeon-grit-pickstones/beyers-picking-block.html


I always leave available to my birds blocks; I also use to give some pieces of them to my PMV pigeon while I'm hand feeding him so, if you find it, I can explain you how to give it to him. Does he have difficulty in swallowing?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

40-50 ml is almost normal for a pigeon, so that's a good sign. If you are hesitant about taking him to a vet, then plse don't. You are doing so well with this pigeon, will be heartbreaking if you take him to a vet and they will just euthanize him because pox is so highly contagious. Is he still eating by himself? He might be breathing with an open mouth because of the pox growth inside. As long as it does not cover his breathing hole, he will be ok for now.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I haven't seen him breathing weirdly today, he kept his beak pretty much closed at all times I saw him. He's still eating by himself, I'm just not convinced he eats enough by himself. Unfortunately, I was alone today and I couldn't feed him, as my husband came home late. I felt bad about waking him up - so we'll do it in the morning. He has no difficulty swallowing, at least when we hand feed him peas go down like a charm. 
However the diarrhea doesn't seem to go away, and it's still got that green colour. I didn't get to call that place, but I don't hold many hopes in them. I figured not calling today wouldn't be an issue since he probably should take a break from antibiotics anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It isn't hard to feed the peas by yourself. It really doesn't take 2 people. You just need to practice. If you are holding him correctly, it isn't difficult at all. It is very important to get the food into him. Even if you have to wake him up.

If you need to feed peas to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I did try it on my own (I gave him the medicine alone a few times), it's just that those sores make opening the beak a bit awkward and he fights a lot, and I feel scared about his broken wings. I fed my lady pigeon mostly alone when she was a baby, but she was so eager for food, she started eating the peas from my hand alone after a week. Maybe the t-shirt thing would help to keep his wings in place. Even when we do it in 2 people, after 5-6 peas he starts struggling and turning his head in all directions to evade us so we have to leave him for a couple of minutes to calm down and re-start the procedure. Alone, it takes me a couple of tries to manage a pea. 

Just woke up (it's 7.30 am here) and he was eating when I looked. Checked him again now, after 20 minutes, and he's still eating. Granted, he eats slowly because he can't see well. 

I've been applying that garlic and honey thing on his sores, but is there anything that softens them so I can break them? I know the idea is to have them dried, but those that did dry are too hard to remove.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I can understand how the pox can make it harder to feed him. 
You don't remove the pox. They will come off when they are ready. If you try to take it off you may cause more injury to him. People have tried and taken chunks of the bird or his beak with it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

You can only open his beak from the front part of it, there's almost no space to grip from the sides because of those growths, it's like he's got 3 beaks in 3 directions. He's turning his head in every direction to dodge me, and struggles like a devil.

Thankfully, today my husband is home and we will feed him a bit later. He's currently sitting in the sun, it's warm today. I gave him a round of ACV water today, thinking some vitamins tomorrow and then back to probiotics.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/osz4zk.jpg - today his poops are less bright green. I cleaned the box around 7 hours ago.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If he is eating by himself, then don't forcefeed him. If he prefers certain seeds to the others, always make sure there's enough of those in his foodbowl. The peas will also give his droppings a greenish colour, the mushy green dropping towards the front in the centre of the other is a typical pea dropping.

Pigeons love chopped up raw peanuts. Sprinkle some on his food. It has got a high fat content, but will help with the energy levels.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Weirdly enough, my own pigeons cared nothing for peanuts or nuts - no matter how I tried to entice them to it. They love hemp. The hen - which is very shy otherwise, comes on my head to ask for it and if I ignore her when she plonks herself next to the hemp box, she makes a noisy fuss. My male pigeon went through some sunflower seed phase when he was little, and he used to fight my husband over popcorn, but hemp is a constant. They both prefer to eat small dark seed. From what I can tell of the little guy, he prefers peas and corn - you see there's little of those left in his bowl, but the mix has healthy amounts of peas and corn - which my own pigeons eat only if they really must.

Regarding him eating, he's always been eating alone, but his crop lately felt empty and he's got that prominent trachea that you mentioned it shows like that when the crop is empty. As for the green poop, he had it before I started feeding him peas. 

Anyway, I gave him 22 peas today, then he started fighting so hard, we decided he's probably full. He's sleeping peacefully now. I'm happy he stopped doing that beak breathing he had started to do the last days of antibiotic. I'm gonna measure his weight at the end of the week, see if there's any improvement.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good that you were able to get some peas into him. 
I don't think there is a pigeon who does not love peanuts. The thing is that they don't see them as food. You need to chop them up and mix it in with their food. It will take a little while, but eventually they will try them. Once they do, they love them. The thing is in getting them to try them. Lots of people say they don't like them, only because they didn't give it enough time for them to find out. It can take a while. Most birds love them. Even the songbirds in the back yard. LOL.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

You could try to offer him a piece of biscuit, something simple (so without chocolate, marmalade, etc), all my birds love it. Crumble it with your fingers and put it in a bowl or sprinkle it near him. It could maybe pick his curiosity.

You could even add to his mix dry legumes (the ones for human) like small lentils and mung beans, they are healthy and really important in a balanced diet, some of my pigeons really love them. 

Surely, he eats slowly because he has difficulty in seeing and picking up the seed. I have a totally blind pigeon (from his birth) , Geordi, and I have to hand feed him twice a day. I noticed that he can eat a few seed by himself when I sprinkle a good amount of them (in his case, small lentils) against a surface: for example against a mirror on the dresser.

You could even add a mixture for canary containing dehydrated fruits: they are colored and he could maybe see them easily.

You could look for a product similar to this one OXYCOX, it's a natural supplement containing garlic and others plants like thyme, tanacetum vulgaris, echinacea purpurea, triganella faenum graecum other than manganese and zinc. It protects the digestive system, helps to regulate the transit and provides a protection from parasitic infestation of coccidies. I took a photo so you can see it. 
One of our pigeon had watery poop, I monthly treated him with this supplement and another product called Oceproven (which was given by my vet), after a few months he stopped with watery poop. I know that these are different situations (mine is a PMV pigeon) but maybe it could help a bit even your bird.

Have you tried to look for a picking block containing clay (btw you could give it even to your other pigeons, it's a good kind of product)? Here you can read something about clay:

https://allnaturalpetcare.com/blog/...s-birds-exotic-poultry-pigeons-waterfowl/amp/

I'm really glad to hear that he stopped the beak breathing.

Unfortunately that member didn't answer to my pm.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I did try in the past to entice my pigeons to peanut eating - mixing it with food etc. They were not interested. My male pigeon was so curious when he was young, he was checking our plates and tried to taste the stew or baked potatoes. Nowadays he just shakes his head at any human food. He never tasted bread or any kind of pastry.

I bought https://www.jedds.com/shop/naturaline-natural-granen/ together with the probiotics. Put some in the little one's water today. I also noticed while cleaning his box that his butt was kinda stuck with poop and he was struggling to poop - so for the next half an hour he had to put up with a butt bath. Took a while, he's got those sores there too, and he made a fuss being put in the sink, but eventually found a position nestled in my hand and he was a very obedient patient. Still I think it exhausted him so now he's sleeping. He tried to flap his wings but they are wobbly. We'll feed him a little later.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

How is he doing? 
Any other problem in pooping after the bath?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

No problems with pooping, which seems improved, as in less watery.
However, I just fed him and a new issue appeared: his legs seem to be giving way. He couldn't quite sit up properly while feeding him, and after putting him in the box, he just fel on a side and decided to just sit. He spent all day up in the crate on his box and a good hour with the window open. Most of the time he sat up normally, but frankly, he's not walked in over a month more than a couple of steps to food. We did feed him @20 peas as usually.

Edit: Just went to check on him and he fel asleep sitting down, which is the first time he is doing it. I'm quite worried  .
Edit2: 2 hours later he's on his feet and was preening himself, which is quite weird, since it's dark - though maybe he got a bit of light from the bathroom window.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is he getting calcium and D3?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

The vitamins I'm giving him contain calcium and D3 too, but I could not find a calcium alone solution around, and I've not given those to him in a week, gave him probiotics and ACV. Yesterday he had them though. I bought something a little while ago for my own pigeons, but discovered home the label saying "not for pigeons".
I have some kind of minerals dust formula that says for all species of birds, to put in food, 3-5% it says. I didn't try that one yet. I could coat a little the peas I'm feeding him, since they are wet and the dust would adhere easily. I've also been slipping him a tiny sliver of garlic with honey the last 2 days.

He seems fine today, he was eating this morning and saw him preen a fair bit. I also measured his weight yesterday, and he's back to 275 grams. He was 245-ish last week, after antibiotics.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's been sitting down most day. I used to see it as a sign he's relaxed - as my pigeons do sit down a fair bit too, but now it just worries me. I'll try with that mix thing. Are generic calcium mixes usually good for pigeons unless stated otherwise?

Alternatively, I could crush some cuttlebone from my finches and try that, but it would only be calcium, not vitamin D.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

The cuttlebone is ok as source of calcium, I give it to my birds too. 
If I'm not wrong vit d is stored in the body. What do the instructions of the vitamins say? You have to give them weekly or monthly? 
Does he take the direct light of sun when you put the box near the open window?

I can't say nothing about the mineral powder formula because I don't know it; in any case, if there isn't the label "not for pigeons" I suppose you can use it. I have some products that are good for pigeons but even for chicken, ducks, etc. 

Do you have on hand bird formula? If so, you could prepare some small balls having the size of small peas: just add some water to the formula (the balls need to be not too soft not too hard), you could put inside them the crushed cuttlebone or the generic powder if you want to try it.

He could be debilitated by the illness or the antibiotic treatment.

Does he still peck at seed? Does he eat something by himself? A not balanced diet could create problems too. Try to offer him a large variety of seed (don't forget that legumes like small lentils, mung beans are really important) and give him the vitamins following the dosage suggested on the direction for use. A lack of vitamins could create different problems.

Can you find there the Versele Laga brand? Omni-Vit is a good vitamin supplement because it contains vit, trace elements and amino acids. Omni-Lux is a good calcium supplement, you can put it in the water (it doesn't contain vit d3).


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

The vitamins I'm giving have the following composition. They are generally for animals, they have dosage for birds. 
100 ml soluţie conţin:
Vitamina A (Retinol palmitat 1.000.000 U.I./g)…….. 1 g
Vitamina B1 (Tiamina clorhidrat)…………...…… 0,25 g
Vitamina B6 (Piridoxina clorhidrat)…………...... 0,25 g
Vitamina B12 (Ciancobalamina)…………...…. 0,0015 g
Vitamina C (Acid ascorbic)…………………...…... 2,0 g
Vitamina D3 (Colecalciferol 1.000.000 U.I./g)...…. 0,1 g
Vitamina E (Tocoferol acetat 1.000 U.I./g)……….. 0,4 g
Vitamina K3 (Menadiona)………………...……... 0,25 g
Calciu pantotenat…………………………...……… 1,0 g
Nicotinamida………………………………...…….. 2,0 g
Colina citrat………………………………..….…… 5,0 g
Acid folic………………………………………... 0,005 g
Excipienţi q.s.ad…………………...…………...... 100 ml

(it's in romanian, but easy to figure out)
They don't have a timer, you just put them in the water and give them whenever necessary. First weeks I've used them alternatively with the ACV water, but for a week I've been using the probiotics.

He takes direct sunlight, it's the reason why I open the window for him every day. It's not very strong since the balcony is oriented to west and there's sun there only after 4-5 pm, and I don't open it when it's cloudy. Yesterday he actually got a bit more than usual, since I had him up on top pf the box all day.

I don't have the on-hand formula, and the variant you can find in Europe is made with bakery products, I don't really like it.

He still eats by himself, at least twice per day I catch him at the bowl. He doesn't eat a lot, but he does eat alone. He's eating a pigeon mix, but he tends to pick the large seed - like peas and corn. 

I bought recently something called supervit from versele laga, he had a round of those. I did not find the calcium variant sadly, only this one.

Checked on him several times today, he was up on his feet too, and I was considering putting him up on the box for a little when he buckled and sat down. 

I'll try the powder thing. The label says all kinds of animals and poultry, including exotic birds. It does not mention pigeons. The composition is: CaO – Min 54%; MgO – Max 0,8 %; Fe2O3 – Max 0,01%; SiO2 – Max 0,01%; Al2O3 – Max 0,1 %; CaCO3 – Min 98%; Na2O5 – Max 0,01 %; P2O5 – Max 0,01%; K2O – Max 0,005 %; Ca – Min 39%; premix cu lisină, metionină, cisteină, treonină, Ca, P, Fe, Zn, Mn, Cu, Se, Co, I, Vitamina A, D3, E, К3, B1, B2, В6, B12, Pantotenat Ca D, antioxidant, aromă.

Edit: Just fed him. He couldn't stand . I sprinkled some of that powder on the peas. It's breaking my heart.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't they have bird vitamins there for people who own parrots and such?
Actually I have read that cuttlebone isn't a great source of calcium, and that not much of its calcium is actually absorbed. There are much better sources. Crushed and boiled or microwaved eggshells would be much better.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Exotic birds get their calcium from cuttlebone fish. I give that to my finches. 
I have vitamins, including the pigeon special ones from versele laga. 
Generally they put vitamins in the feed for exotic birds, like millet, which is not very useful for me.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm really really sorry to hear that he couldn't stand, I understand how you feel. How is he doing today?

I gave a look at the Versele Laga supervit, it contains 10 vitamins and 4 trace elements, it looks good. Even the composition of the other one looks ok (once I bought in an agricultural supply store vitamins which are good for pigeons but even for chickens, ducks and rabbits).

I would plan what to give him and how many times, I would make a sort of "timetable" because he needs to take regularly the different supplements. For example, I read that the directions for use of the supervit suggest to give it once a week. So, following the instructions of the different products and the "common rules" for the other things (for example, here the vets suggest to add ACV to the water twice a week) you could approximately prepare a plan (that you can change when needed, of course): vitamins once a week (you could maybe weekly alternate the 2 different products), etc. I didn't find nothing about the natural product that you bought. The one I have is a monthly treatment (a week once a month). 

The picking blocks I told you about are good source of calcium. I have 3 different kinds of blocks, I mix them each other, they contain oyster shells, minerals, insoluble grit (the small stones which help to grind up the seed), anise, clay, etc. Try these links, maybe you can find one. 


https://www.jedds.com/


https://globalpigeonsupplies.com/collections/grits-and-minerals

https://www.acepigeons.com/


I know I seem repetitive but they are good products, you could give it to him and to your other pigeons.

Probably he tends to pick the large seed because he sees them easily.
Do you have a supermarket called Carrefour there? I know that it seems strange but I use to buy there a dove mixture brand Carrefour enriched with vitamins which is really good (I use to buy pigeon/dove mixture of different brands, I mix them each other and I add dry legumes and a mixture for canary). If you have it there, you could give a look. You could even try to add to his mix the largest variety of lentils.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's spent the day partially standing, partially sitting. Sleeps, preens, not much else he can do in a box that size. I just checked him and he seemed to want to get off the raised box I made for him, and when he tried to step down, he buckled and lost balance. It feels weird that he would go on a lack of vitamins with all the vitamins I've been giving to him, they don't have such outside. I worry it could be neurological, but would he be able to stand up at all if it was? Could it also be from prolonged lack of movement? He has been in that box for more than a month now. 

I'll prepare him the versele laga vitamins today and put them in his jar for tomorrow. As far as I could tell, he drinks once a day, in the morning. 

I do have grit for my pigeons, I gave him some this morning in a separate bowl. My pigeons ignore it, or I've never seen them interested in it. I've never seen the block form here, the grit is sold by kilo.

I have some cuttlefish bone that I could crush and mix in his food. I also bought today some human calcium+vitamin D, would that be advisable?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

There are 2 main groups of vitamins: one is stored in the body and one is not stored. In the second group, a deficiency could create problems to the bird in a quick way. 
You have also to consider that vitamins of B group have interrelated functions so a deficiency in one of them could interfere on the others one. 

Just for example a lack of some vits could cause paralysis of the muscles or nervous symptoms, a lack of calcium or vit D3 fragile bones and, if I'm not wrong, even neurological symptoms.

The problem is that we can't say what is wrong...give him regularly all the supplements and see how he goes. 

You could even hand feed the cuttlebone: just cut it in small pieces (discharge the ones with sharp edges). I use a sort of "small shovel" : take a magazine with a good cover , cut a small rectangle from it and bend it like in the photo. If your husband can help you, it would be easier to hand feed it.
Honestly I have never talked to my vet about human calcium+vit D. I only read on the website of the French pigeon protection group C.RE.DO des pigeons that they suggest to give a tablet called OROCAL 500mg (calcium+vit D3). If you can read french I can send you the link or tell you about the dosage suggested.

He could be even debilitated by the sickness or by the antibiotic treatment or it could be something else. Just for example loss of balance, poor coordination, diarrhea could be symptoms of a streptococcal infection. 

I know you have other pigeons so you need to keep him in the box, but have you ever tried to put him on the floor for example? Just to see what he does, how he walks, if he moves, etc.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

For some reason I fear an infection rather than lack of vitamins. He is weaker than before I got him and how many vitamins could have have had on the street? He should have gotten stronger, not weaker. Is there any broad range medicine I could give him safely? Unfortunately I can't determine exactly what he might have. Would it even be safe after a week barely since he was on antibiotics? 

I did not try to put him on the floor because I don't have lots of safe floors that my pigeons don't go on. He's in a balcony that is tiny and full of stuff, there's hardly more free floor there than in his box. I could put him in the bathroom, because I can wash that? Maybe bathtub? I'm just concerned he would feel stressed about it, but maybe try it when we feed him and get him to the bathroom anyway? Problem is that's in the evening, and he seems to be sitting more in the afternoon, and stands in the morning.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We just fed him and I tried to make him walk in the bathroom. No success. If left alone he will just stand in place, if I try to make him move, he loses balance easily. I "made him walk" supported by my hand, but it was me moving his legs mostly, he did like 3-4 steps, supported by me not to fall.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Honestly I am wondering too if it could be a bacterial infection. 
The fact that he just stands even out of the cage and more generally his global condition make me think about Friz, a brave and wonderful pigeon that I rescued years ago. Long story short, he had salmonella (even if the Italian vet where I brought him made a wrong diagnosis, when we took him to my french vet it was too late...): he couldn't fly, he just stand, often sat, didn't walk (even if I kept him free in a room), he didn't eat (even if sometimes he pecked at seed), had diarrhea. 
I read that you took him to a vet and that he said that it doesn't appear to be salmonella: he ruled out salmonella on what basis? Loss of balance, paralysis, diarrhea could be symptoms. I read that you said " he does have some swelling in the droopy wing, and he does drop the wing" (even my poor Friz had a swelling in the foot but at that time I didn't have any experience or knowledge about salmonella...I still feel bad thinking about him 😥 ). Salmonella is usually treated with Baytril (enrofloxacin).

The problem is that without a vet check we can't know what it is...we can just try to figure what it could be by the symptoms and so we could be wrong. But this is the only way available..

I'm going to copy in a separate post an article about stretptococcal infection so you can read it, some symptoms make me think about it too. But it could be something else too...

I want to ask a thing: the vet is sure that both wings are broken? 

Do you feed him once a day? About 20 peas in the evening? He pecks at seed but he doesn't eat a lot by himself; is it possible that he doesn't eat enough? Have you tried to feed him twice a day?

When did you exactly stop the antibiotic?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

STREPTOCOCCAL INFECTIONS IN PIGEONS
By Dr Colin Walker BSc, BVSc, MRCVS, MACVSc (Avian health) 

Streptococcus is the name given to a group of dot-shaped bacteria that are capable of causing disease in pigeons. They are everywhere in the environment, mainly in the dust and air. Many species have been isolated from pigeons and they are considered part of the normal bacteria found on the skin and the lining of the digestive, respiratory and reproductive tracts. There are different types of Streptococcus that vary in their ability to cause disease. Transition from a normal bacterial inhabitant to a disease agent depends on how effectively the pigeons’ immune system is operating.

Experimentally, researchers have deliberately infected pigeon s with disease-causing strains of Streptococci, both by intravenous injection and by mouth. Many of those infected by the intravenous route became sick, developing a variety of symptoms. Interestingly however, in the pigeons inoculated with the organism by mouth, none became sick, although the organism could be cultured from the droppings or mouth of at least half of the pigeons in the month following infection. This experiment helps to explain the nature of the disease process with Streptococcus. Pigeons are obviously being exposed to the organism intermittently but when an otherwise healthy pigeon ingests the organism, disease is unlikely to occur. Once the organism, however, gains entry to the blood stream, the pigeon can become unwell. In some studies, potentially harmful species of streptococci have been recovered from the intestines from up to 40% of healthy pigeon s. Many pigeon s obviously carry these organisms without becoming sick. As with other diseases in pigeons, there needs to be a trigger factor that enables the organism to invade the blood stream and spread throughout the body. This trigger is essentially any factor that runs the pigeon down. Predisposing factors include poor management, poor loft environment and concurrent disease, but also the ability of the type of Streptococcus itself to cause disease.

Signs associated with disease
Once the bacteria have invaded the body of a vulnerable bird, it can spread to a variety of sites. This, together with the fact that the severity of the disease can vary, leads to a wide variety of symptoms that often mimic other diseases. It is therefore important that pigeon fanciers do not jump to a premature conclusion that this is the problem with any unwell pigeons they may have.

Once the organism invades from the bowel or skin, etc, into the blood stream, it can be carried to a wide variety of sites. The symptoms displayed by the pigeons depend on the actual site within the body that the bacteria infect and also the severity of the infection. Disease displayed by the pigeons can be per acute or chronic. Some pigeons develop a severe overwhelming disease and will die so quickly that they do not have time to lose condition. These pigeons become quiet, fluffed up and die within 2 – 3 days. Other pigeons, develop a chronic ill-thrift type condition that may persist for as long as 6 – 8 weeks. Some of these pigeons with treatment will recover, while others will eventually die. In some apparently recovered pigeons, relapses can occur. In still other pigeons, the disease may be transient and mild.

In some infected pigeons, the organism will localise in the respiratory system, leading to red watery eyes, a nasal discharge and difficulty breathing. In other pigeons, the liver can be affected, leading to a green diarrhoea and weight loss. In some pigeons, the heart itself may become infected. If these pigeons survive, they may develop long-term heart problems, leading to a chronic shortage of breath. The organism can also infect the membrane around the brain (leading to poor coordination, loss of balance, or a head tilt), the muscles (leading to bleeding and inflammation), the joints (leading to swollen red painful joints, in particular in the wings and legs), the kidney (leading to a thirst and excessive urination), the bowel (leading to diarrhoea), the abdomen (leading to fluid accumulation and a swollen abdomen) and testicles (leading to premature infertility in young cocks). Notably, the organism can also infect the ovary and fallopian tube of hens. This can lead to interference with ovulation, meaning that some hens will become sterile or lay eggs late or irregularly. In those that do lay, the organism can be incorporated in the egg at the time of its formation, leading to embryonic death during incubation or a weakened chick that dies during hatching or shortly after. Because the organism is found in pigeons droppings, it can contaminate the nest box and infect the healing navel of recent hatchlings. Diagnosis
Because of the wide variety of symptoms associated with the disease, the disease cannot be diagnosed by the signs displayed by the pigeons. Similarly, the disease cannot be diagnosed through examination of the droppings as it is found there normally in many pigeon s and most of these will be quite healthy. The only way to diagnose the disease is by culturing the organism from certain organs during autopsy. Swabs for culture are usually taken from the heart, brain, liver or a visible lesion.

Treatment and control
As always, good ongoing care will mean that most pigeons are able to resist the disease and those that do get sick are in the best situation to recover. When Streptococcal disease is diagnosed, it is vital for the pigeon fancier to identify and correct the flaw in his management or loft environment that has enabled the disease to flare up in the first place. Otherwise, a poor response to any medication can be anticipated.

Being a bacterial infection, the organism responds to antibiotic treatment. And so, what are the best antibiotics to use? The best way to treat is to have your veterinarian culture the Streptococcal organism involved in your outbreak and also have him do what is called a sensitivity test in order to ascertain what is the most effective antibiotic for that particular strain of Streptococcus. Studies do, however, show that 80% of organisms are controlled by the antibiotics ampicillin (a synthetic penicillin) and doxycycline, while 70% are sensitive to erythromycin, 30% are sensitive to enrofloxacin (Baytril) and only 10% are sensitive to sulfur-based antibiotics. Obviously, the two poorest drugs are Baytril and the sulfur-based antibiotics, so they are not likely to be the first choice for treatment of this disease (although obviously they are useful in other situations). In the absence of testing, doxycycline is the usual choice as it is equally effective as the synthetic penicillins but is more economical.

As with other bacterial bowel diseases, probiotics have a significant role to play in the control of Streptococcal infections. They can be used in times of stress when the normal bowel bacteria are disrupted to minimise the risk of Streptococcal invasion and also to preventatively treat healthy pigeons that have been in contact with pigeons infected with Streptococcus. Interestingly, exhibitors of fancy breeds have noticed how Streptococcal diarrhoea can be avoided in pigeons taken to shows if the pigeons are treated with probiotics, eg Probac, for several days before and after the show.

Maintenance of a clean, dry loft will minimise exposure to the organism. If necessary the loft can be disinfected. Streptococci are sensitive to most of the commonly used disinfectants.

When Streptococcal infection occurs in an loft, it will spread slowly through the flock and some pigeons will start to die. When testing by your veterinarian confirms the disease, the following protocol can be followed:-

Unwell pigeons are separated and either treated with doxycycline tablets, eg Doxyvet 50 mg, ½ tablet once daily, or culled.
Loft cleaned and disinfected.
Trigger factors such as overcrowding, poor diet, low hygiene, inadequate parasite control, cold or damp conditions etc etc, are identified and corrected.
Start in-contact healthy pigeons on probiotics.
If further pigeons continue to become unwell while on the probiotic treatment, then start a flock treatment of antibiotic eg. Doxycycline, “Doxyvet”.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html

Here you can read any information about broad spectrum antibiotics.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Thank you for the article, I have read it carefully.

My pigeon had an agitated day today. Yesterday, seeing his condition getting worse, I made some courage and called some people that I thought might know a vet where I could go. Having no success, I called again the guy I went to first, thinking that even if he doesn't work there anymore, maybe he found another job, or can send me to somebody else. To my luck, he said he isn't working there anymore, but can still use the lab, and agreed to meet me and my pigeon today. I told him what happened since he last saw the bird, and he examined the pigeon. 

Firstly, the edge of the pox in his mouth looked bigger than last I checked it and I got worried he actually got canker now. The vet took a sample from it, as it was coming off easier than I'd have expected it of pox, and checked it at the microscope. He said he found no flagelates in it and it's most likely puss/necrotic pox tissue. He cleaned most of it from the mouth and applied methylene blue, which my pigeon disagreed with strongly. He also managed to pry off one of the smaller pox growths, didn't insist on the large ones, but said they are dry and methylene blue will speed up the process. He also broke off the growths from his butt, which came off easier than I though, my pigeon didn't even flinch at it. He's now got a blue beak, blue ass and blue feet.

Regarding the feet, he said there is some joint minor swelling, but they would have looked a lot worse if it was salmonella. Ruled out salmonella again. Said the swelling can come from the pox growths, which are at the joints too. Also said he doesn't dare prescribe anti-inflammatory medicine, as all of them work by suppressing more or less the immune system (which triggers the swelling in the first place), and this would weaken him to the pox. Regarding him not keeping up on his feet, he said he's malnourished and too weak and I will need to feed him more, and more often than once a day. He gave me some granules which are technically for baby geese, but said they are great for weak birds, as they are a formula with vitamins, specifically designed to make baby geese grow. Was sure there is no problem to feed them to pigeons, and said they will be easier for him to digest and provide him more nourishment than regular seed. He also said I will need to make his exercise his feet by making him grab a stick with his fingers.

He also cleaned the eye, but is reserved to weather the eye is unaffected under all that stuff. He washed it and put some opthalmic cream on it.

Regarding the question about the first visit and his wings, yes, I think he's right, sadly. The bumps I had felt when I suspected salmonella were actually the broken ends of the bone, they are sharp. The doctor made me feel them the first time and yes, they felt like broken bone  . I saw him raising his wings and one of them is wonky. 

As for your text about the streptococci infection, it seems from it that it's impossible to see in poop samples, so if it's that...it will be late to test for anyway. My vet thinks feeding him better is the best thing I can do right now, and did not advise for more antibiotics. He also told me I will need to check his mouth and clean it if he gets more of that stuff, with a cotton swab. 

Truth be told, I think birds get "better" when they are scared, because he was holding on his feet quite alright on the vet table. Sure he wobbled, but not in the terrible amount he did home lately.

Well....he's eating goose feed today. I also got recommended a vitamin product, called Beforvel.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, he's been "goosed up". I was worried his mouth would be sensitive from the scrapping it got today, but he didn't seem in pain or discomfort and gobbled up what we put down his throat. He made a fuss, as he doesn't really like being fed, and claims a break every few bites, but he actually climbed on my hand as he used it (it seems to be his "prize", getting to sit on my hand). He seemed pretty firm on his feet, although towards the end of the feeding he did sit down on my palm, but without that falling over behaviour he had lately. After feeding, I took him to his box and he tried to fly to it. Obviously that's not really within his capabilities, but he jumped in it nevertheless. We'll feed him in the morning too and try to be less sensitive to his fussing, as it seems that got him underfed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he isn't being fed enough he just gets weaker and will not be able to get through the pox virus. He needs to be fed a few times a day, and enough at each feeding. If you are unsure how much he is eating and therefore don't know how much to feed him, then just don't leave the seed with him. Just feed him yourself, until he eats well on his own.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, I started from the assumption he can eat on his own, since I got him from the street, where I have seen him living on his own with the pox for a couple of weeks. Actually, when I decided to take him home, he was eating a moldy sandwich. Maybe the lack of movement and the disease and the antibiotic diminished his appetite, which seemed normal before I got him. He's always argued being fed - moves his head in every direction and refuses to open his beak, and at some point flat out struggles - but he swallows everything we put down his throat. These granules are a bit annoying to feed, because they are rather small, so it takes longer, but with a couple of breaks we managed to get down him all we planned. The vet said to feed him until we feel a full crop - we didn't really get there today, but we decided to not insist too much after the stress he had today. We got about 2 tablespoons of the granules in him, but since they are dry, I assume it's still more than 20 frozen peas. 

I need to think about getting him more room to move.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Feed him like that a couple of times a day. Just make sure it is passing through before feeding again. That would give him a couple of ounces of food a day.
A sick or injured bird often doesn't eat, anymore than we do when sick or injured. And make sure he is drinking.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will do. I did give him 2 ml of water with electrolites with a syringe while feeding him those granules, since they are dry and I didn't want to scrap his throat.

I looked on the composition of those granules, wouldn't say it's particularly BIO, but it has cereals, soy, sunflower seed, calcium in several forms, other minerals and vitamins A, D and E. 

I feel more optimistic tonight after seeing his feet firm and knowing he has been seen by a vet and sample put under microscope.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't use a syringe to give water as it is so easy to aspirate him. Will he drink if you dip his beak gently into the water, just not over the nostrils?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll try that. I didn't give him to drink until today since he drinks just fine on his own and the peas were wet enough. I was careful to just give him 1-2 drops at a time, mostly to moisten his throat after a couple bites.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm really glad to hear that this guy saw him and checked samples 😊. He gave a good help!

I suspected that he wasn't getting enough food (even the fact that he doesn't see well makes eating on its own hard); you said that he used to sit more in the afternoon and stand in the morning. As you used to feed him in the evening, I thought that he was feeling worse in the afternoon because the crop got empty. This is why I asked you about feeding in my last post.
I'm glad he gave you the granules for weak birds, I think they will help him.
Yes, I know by my own experience that sometimes it's really hard to feed a sick or injured bird... have you tried the "small shovel" method? As the granules are so small it could be easier to feed them with it.

I'm really glad to know that you saw his feet firm!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You are really doing a great job with this pigeon. I'm sure it's all going to be worth it and this thread is going to have a good ending! Would be interesting to know if there's a change in his droppings now that he's on a new diet.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I managed to feed him twice today between work stuff - around noon and in the evening. He's been firm on his feet both times, perching on my hand. 

His poops turned a paler colour, I assume from the pellets, which are a greyish yellowish tint. They are reasonably solid, only 1-2 per day seem on the softer side. He seems to be passing them alright.

There is a bit of a problem however. Me and my husband are going on holiday at the end of next week and we will be missing for 4 days. I'm thinking hard on whom I could leave him with for feeding, but the only friends that I can think of are coming with us. It wouldn't be an issue if he ate alone, my mother comes around to feed the fishes and the birds, but she wouldn't be able to handle hand-feeding him.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Can't you take him with? Depends on where you are going and how you are travelling to get there?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Oh, if I could, I wouldn't even have questioned it- but we are traveling by plane abroad. I have 0 chances of bringing a sick pigeon aboard and in a foreign country. Well, I have 8 days to find a solution. After all this hassle, I don't plan to give up on him.

He's pooped nicely during the night and I saw him at the feeding bowl in the morning. I've been dabbing his sores with methylene blue, to speed the drying process.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Any member of the family (except of your mum, of course) that could keep and hand feed him? You can show him/her how to feed him.

The vet who saw him seems a good and kind guy: maybe you could explain him the problem and ask him if he knows someone who could take care of him for 4 days (for example my vet helps pigeons and other animals to find adoptive families or people who could temporarily care about them; I adopted 3 pigeons from him).

Except of that member I don't know if there are others members living in Romania: in any case, you could try to post a message in the adoption section of the forum explaining the situation and asking if someone could keep him for a few days.

I'm glad to know that poops look nice 😊. Yes, the color is from the food.

He is so lucky to have met you, as I said your dedication is admirable!

I will think about other solutions..


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I think things are sorted. I had lunch with mom yesterday and coffee today, and after ensuring she's in a very good mood, I proceeded with the confession about the pigeon. My mom is an extraordinary and compassionate person, but she is also a stickler for clean-ness and me keeping 2 pigeons in the house clashes with that, although she came to give my pigeon shots daily when he was sick (she's a nurse). She grew up in the country side, so while she loves animals, she thinks they belong outside.

Anyway, she took it better than I thought, and since my husband is out of town today, I asked her to help me with feeding. She found the 2 person feeding awkward and said she finds it easier if she feeds him herself. I kinda didn't want pox viruses on her clothes (I use a set of clothes that I leave in the bathroom when I feed him) so I held him and she fed him. In the process the sore on the side of his beak fell off - I just realized at some point it wasn't there anymore. The place looked raw, but didn't bleed. It came off with a little bit of skin I think, because there were a few of those tiny feathers they have lining the beak, but otherwise looked clean. I dabbed it in methylene blue after we finished feeding. 

So now my guy can freely see with his good eye. He feels a lot stronger too, no more feet buckling. She said she can feed him when I'm away, but it will only be once per day, in the afternoon, as she is at work during the day. I think that will be enough though, as I hope he will start eating more on his own too - he seems to have done so yesterday, when we also could feed him only once (though I took care of making it a larger meal).

All in all, I'm feeling relieved.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Glad to hear things are working out well for you and the pigeon. If he starts eating on his own before you leave, keep a sample of his overnight droppings. She can then just compare his new droppings with the sample to make sure he is still eating ok. Once a day feeding will also be ok, this will encourage him to eat during the day and if necessary she can feed him after work so that his crop is full in the evening.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm really happy to know that you found a good solution 😊.

As he can now freely see with his good eye (what a good news!) and starts to feel stronger, he could really begin to eat more on his own. Little by little he will become independent.

I'm really happy for you and your pigeon 😊!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I've been on a business trip yesterday, but my mother came and fed the little guy. He looks good, although he still seems to favor one leg, but he squirms convincingly enough when caught. He seems to have taken the habit to poke his head out of his box through that window I cut in the cardboard and poke the box or look around intently, and this morning he had a foot on the edge. He doesn't have where to go from there, it's like 10 cm to the glass, but he seems curious.

He's also been eating fairly on his own, the bowl I filled on sunday was almost empty and there was a large pile of poop (since nobody cleaned him yesterday). Poop looks good too, brownish and solid.

He still has pox sores on his feet and face - and I honestly don't know how will the one covering his eye get removed, as it's got such a large surface of attachment, but assuming he will eventually get rid of those, how long would it be safe for me to assume he's not a pox carrier anymore?

Edit: Just fed him and took the opportunity to weigh him too. He's almost 300 grams, so he took @10% weight in the last week or so. Had issues keeping him properly on the scales, he scrambles around, which is a far sight from last week when he would just stay where he was put.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Seems like he is improving. Can you get him a bigger box so that he can move around a bit? Put the box on the side with the open part to the front and then cover that with chickenwire or something. Don't know for how long pox is contagious. From what I've read, one has to wait for all the growths to fall off. I've also read that it can take months for a malnourished pigeon to heal from pox. At least he got decent food while in your care.

If you are planning on keeping him (I hope), you might as well improve his living conditions on the balcony by giving him more space and perches.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He's definitely improving. I can feel some meat on him when I hold him and he actually walks, and turns around in his box. Today he lost another sore - on his wing, which I thought was a broken bone, but apparently was just an awkwardly grown pox sore. My mother comes to feed him every day since either I am away for the day or my husband is, and she prefers feeding him alone anyway. She's less gentle than I am, so he keeps losing sores from the handling. 

He's also started molting. I hope that is normal. This morning his box was full of small feathers. Here's a picture of his good side, the other is still blind sadly. He's eating a lot more on his own, I filled his bowl yesterday morning and you can see in the pic how much is left - though a little spilled, but not a lot. The dark bits on him are pox sores, I dab them in methylene blue, and I also use that wherever one fell off. 

http://oi63.tinypic.com/23h7tx1.jpg

I'll see about giving him more room when I come back from the holiday (monday evening). I'll try to empty some of the balcony - thinking about how I could make sure anything I take out of there is properly disinfected. He's not really been out of his box much, but he did jump from my hands a couple of times. However, putting him on the floor would not let him watch outside anymore - and he spends a lot of time watching outside. Maybe I could find another box, cut a side and extend his.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

So glad to hear he is improving. Good work!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm really glad to know he is improving, what a wonderful news!

Moulting is a stressful time for birds but it's a natural process. There are specific vitamins for it (like Muta-Vit Oropharma Versele Laga which is rich in amino acids and biotin) but maybe it's better to continue with the vitamin treatment suggested by the vet. He is improving a lot with the new diet and these vitamins. In any case I'm going to copy in a separate post the product presentation so you can give a look at it and decide what it is the best for him (I don't know nothing about the product he gave you).

I don't know how long pox is contagious; honestly we need to know it too because my brother has a pigeon, Lazzaro, who had pox. Maybe I will start a thread.

If you can find a way to give him more room it could be great, he could feel more stimulate. How is your balcony? What do you keep there? You can wear a different pair of slippers when you go on the balcony. 
As temporary solution (instead of the box) have you thought about a rodents cage? I don't keep my pigeons in a cage but I bought one years ago because my broken wing pigeon Apple needed a long time to improve and become independent (I used it especially at night). I bought one size: 

Length 1,00 m - Height 0,50 m - Width 0,60 m.

I paid it about € 50.
Inside it there is a platform (from which he could watch outside); then you could organize it as you prefer.

Anyway, have a nice holiday 😊!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Product presentation

Complementary feed for birds. Oropharma Muta-Vit is a special blend of vitamins, amino acids and trace elements, with high content of sulphurous amino acids and biotin. This dietary supplement promotes feather development and condition, strengthens the plumage, protects the liver and ensures an optimal metabolism. Muta-Vit helps to prevent fright moulting. During the moult, the bird is subject to stress. An optimal supplement to the feed is necessary then. The sulphurous amino acids in Muta-Vit are essential for the production of keratin, the building material for feathers and skin. Biotin ensures good quality keratin. This guarantees a fast and good moult.

Directions for use

1 level measure (= 1 g) of Muta-Vit per 250 ml drinking water or per 100 g Orlux soft food or eggfood. 
During the moult to promote the development of the feathers: three times a week.
During the preparation for the show season: for 4 consecutive days.
After treatment with antibiotics or other medicines: for 5 consecutive days.
In cases of decreased appetite as a result of a poor metabolism: for one whole week.

See also the Oropharma instructions table for the optimal combinations of Oropharma products, 
adapted to every season.



Analytical constituents


Nutritional additives 

Vitamin A 3.000.000 IU/kg 

Vitamin D3 220.000 IU/kg 

Vitamin E 20.000 mg/kg 

Vitamin C 13.000 mg/kg 

Vitamin K3 650 mg/kg 

D-pantothenate calcium 2.400 mg/kg 

Vitamin B1 900 mg/kg 

Vitamin B2 3.500 mg/kg 

Vitamin B6 1.300 mg/kg 

Vitamin B12 6 mg/kg 

Niacin 17.500 mg/kg 

Biotin 225 mg/kg 

Folic acid 330 mg/kg 

L-lysine 20.000 mg/kg 

DL-methionine 30.000 mg/kg 

E1 - Iron (iron sulphate monohydrate) 2.500 mg/kg 

E2 - Iodine (calcium iodate, anhydrous) 100 mg/kg 

E4 - Copper (copper (II) sulphate pentahydrate) 500 mg/kg 

E5 - Manganese (manganese sulphate monohydrate) 5.000 mg/kg 

E6 - Zinc (zinc sulphate monohydrate) 4.500 mg/kg 

Technological additives 

Antioxidant(s) 


Composition

Lactose 

Glucose 

Vitamins 

Amino acids 

Trace elements 


Packings


Small box 25 g 
Small pot 200 g


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm back from the holiday, and I found the little guy with the eye sore off. First I thought my mother peeled it, but apparently he still had it yesterday afternoon when she came to feed him. She did say she put a lot of glycerin on it to soften it. While not the prettiest view, the area seems clean, there's just a little redness here and there. The eye seems alright and functional. He still has a nose sore left and some smaller ones on his feet. Mom says he gained a fair bit of weight, I didn't get to hold him yet, I'll see later in the afternoon when cleaning his box. She also says she left him some of those granules in a bowl and he ate them all by himself. Reckon we should stop the handfeeding?

I'll see about getting him more space this week. Mom says he tried to fly but fell off, so I don't know about his wings, but if they were broken, how long would it be till they would heal normally (normally as in time duration, I'm aware they may never be fixed)? I also kept him in a box in the idea that he shouldn't move those wings much, is it safe to allow him more movement?

Would he want a bath? He sure needs one, especially on the head, where he's had creams and stuff slathered all over.

http://oi64.tinypic.com/oh1fsg.jpg
http://oi68.tinypic.com/69ltgm.jpg

Later in the day edit:I've doubled his space, but it's got some "steps", as the boxes I had in the balcony were uneven. Think it's an issue?
http://oi67.tinypic.com/7136o8.jpg


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't stop hand feeding till he is eating well. It's great that the one over his eye has come off. Looks good. I wouldn't bathe him yet, unless just give him a pan of warm water and see if he wants to get into it.I wouldn't put him where he can try to fly and fall. He can really get hurt that way. If out of the box, then keep him on the floor or on something that is low enough that if he should try to fly and fall, that it is close to the floor.
The wings, if broken, have healed, either right or wrong. Birds bones heal quickly, but if not wrapped and held in proper alignment, then they won't heal properly. He may never fly again, or at least not well. But he doesn't understand that, so you need to keep him off of high things where he can try to fly and injure himself. If he can't fly at all, then he will have to learn that, but better he learn it from a low place than a high place. He does need more room to move around, and as long as he has no problem doing the steps then they're fine. If he can't fly then he will need steps and ramps to get around by. He looks good with the eye uncovered.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We didn't handfeed him today, but I felt his crop and it was full. He ate the granules that were in his bowl on his own. I also noticed he's not keen on eating peas and a lot of them gathered in his seed bowl, so I removed the peas gathered on top so he can eat the other seed left under. I'll check on him tomorrow too, see if he keeps eating properly.

Regarding the floor...that would leave him without the window, which is how he spends most of his time - as in - looking outside. The floor is also a pretty small space, unless I empty the balcony. He's never tried to fly out of the box, only from us when we weren't holding him properly. I'm afraid to say his flying attempts have not been particularly successful  . Still, he won't know until he has more room to try, and that is not in that balcony, which is very small. This is why I was asking about the pox, as I would like to let him move freely in a room, but I can't while he's still a carrier.

He has not moved from his box since I put him there. I'll see in the morning if he can hop off, as he's always eating when I wake up, and the food is in the lower part of the box.

He's not become friendly to us. If we put a hand in his box, he hisses and tries to wing slap. His voice became a bit different, he still squeaks, but it's kinda hoarse. We're laughing and saying he's turning into a goose from all the goose feed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well when he is higher up, then you need to be sure he cannot get out of the enclosure, or he may likely fall and get injured. I didn't say to leave him on the floor, but if up higher than a couple of feet, then his enclosure needs to be made so he cannot get out of it. 
Once they are eating seed, they often won't eat the peas, unless fed to them. I'm talking about fresh peas which have been frozen, then defrosted and warmed. Not the hard dry peas.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hissing and growling and wing slapping are a sign that he is starting to feel better and taking ownership of where he lives.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We've not given him frosted peas since we started with the goose feed - that replaced the peas. He's always eaten seed, but in the beginning he seemed to favor peas (the dried ones) and corn (don't know how he feels about that one, we finished the sack of feed that had corn and the current one has more peas and no corn). I've moved his food in the upper section, I want him to have it as at hand as possible so he doesn't stop eating. If he will want to explore the lower part, that's gonna be up to him. 

He's returned on his own to his box once, when I left him in a crate on top of his box to get him a bit of stretching room. He's always squeaked and tried to slap us when we pick him up (doesn't happen a lot, often I clean his box with him in there, so mostly when we took him out for feeding), but it's gotten more vigorous now. The days he was at his worst, they were very feeble attempts indeed. He also shakes a wing when we go near his box, I think that's a defense mechanism for young pigeons?

The closure he has now is as limited as the one he had before. we secured the sides with tape. Unless he starts a lot more vigorous attempts to fly, I don't think he can get out of it, but I'll keep an eye on things, and if we have to go away from home, I'll secure it on top too. 

I've been reading articles on the pox virus. Apparently it's very resilient and can survive for months in the dried sores and other medium - like infested clothes and such. I can't find how long it survives on the host, everybody councils vaccinating the healthy birds in case of a pox case. I'm concluding that letting him lose around my pigeons any time soon is not a good idea.

Edit: He seems interested in a bath. I put a bowl of water this morning in the lower part of the cage. Just went to check on him (got scared for not seeing him in his usual place) and he was on the side of the bowl, and there was water splashed around.
Well, I turned on the heating there for him. He looks like a drowned rat.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Been a while since I posted updates: he's doing fine, flaps his wings every morning, moves in his enclosure, got some more feathers. The side that had the first sore is already covered in new feathers. He still has a sore on the nose but it's clearly separating, we just elected to let it fall off on its own. I'm not sure about his flying capabilities, he's not tried to fly out of his box. Last days it's been warm outside and I opened his window for a few hours every day. 

Bit of wishful thinking here, but from a brief glimpse at his ass a few days ago when I moved him and he sort of moved his feathers there at the right moment, he might be a she. I reckon that would help a lot with keeping him with my pigeons, if it turns out he can't fly anymore. My male pigeon doesn't have any reaction on seeing him through the glass. Would he be more vocal if it was a male?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad to hear he/she is improving. Does he/she do wing tipping? Might be a she. Males do tend to be more vocal too.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm so glad he/she is improving. If she is able to flap both wings, then nothing is broken. You've done a great job with this pigeon, well done!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

cwebster said:


> Glad to hear he/she is improving. Does he/she do wing tipping? Might be a she. Males do tend to be more vocal too.


I am not sure how wing tipping would look. He (I'll call him a he until I figure it out) always did this wing twitching when going closer to him, but I assumed that's a young pigeon defense behaviour. When I need to catch him, he sort of draws back in a corner and raises his wings like trying to look bigger. Occasionally wings slaps a bit too. Only sounds he makes are when we catch him - he used to squeak, but now the squeak became sort of throaty. I'm not joking when I say he sounds a bit like a goose baby.

He flaps both wings, but one of them has a bit of a weird angle. It's not a huge angle, just not perfectly aligned.

Still no idea when he stops being a danger of pox contagion. Definitely not now since he still has sores, but after he gets rid of those.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, my little guy lost his last sore today (or I think it's the last). We had dabbed his nose a bit in methylene blue because he seemed a bit red in the corner of his beak (might have been a smaller sore there and it fel), when my mom popped in for a visit. She went to check on him and went "noo, you haven't put cream on his sores, I put cream on them to fall off". I thought she is talking about the glycerin, but she grabbed the little dude, flattened him against her chest (with me whining about viruses) and slathered his face in some opthalmic cream I had in the bath. I'm like "mom, that's eye cream", she goes "look, it says veterinary use, so it's fine" and puts another helping, then buggers off home. 5 minutes later my guy was sore-less (though his face is still full of eye cream). 

Here's a not so great picture, the light was already poor:
http://oi65.tinypic.com/33w01sk.jpg


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Wow! He is looking good!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with Marina! Has really improved! Pretty bird! You have done a great job with him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good job!!!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Saphira, you really did an excellent job 😊 ! I'm SO happy to see him well!!! Btw, have you given him a name?

Your mother really seems a wonderful mum! She is also right about the ophthalmic cream: even my vet gave us 2 different ophthalmic creams to treat pigeons (my brother used one of them to treat Lazzaro, his pox pigeon).


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## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I followed this thread since the beginning and rarely do I see such dedication to a poor bird with so many issues. Not many would have stuck by it through all of its hardship. Thank you for your perseverance and care, it is so good to see it pay off. The bird is very pretty. It is so nice to have a good ending for this poor bird. Thank you.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Im also glad to see him looking better. Looking back at his old pics, he did come a long way. I did not think yet of a name as in all honesty I was more preoccupied with him dying, we've just been calling him "the little one".

Here's a clip made today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4_45r9c48U&feature=youtu.be

As you can see, one wing is hanging. He puts it straight now and then but it droops. That is the reason why I'm worried about him ever flying again. 

I've been trying to find out on the internet about how long he should be kept isolated. Every article out there just says that if signs of the disease appear in the flock, healthy birds should be vaccinated. However, I found this material - https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/71956/1/OARDC_special_circular_n037.pdf - where it says (on page 7) that vaccinated birds should not come in contact with non-vaccinated ones for at least 2 months. It also mentions there that the immunization happens at least 3 weeks from the inoculation. Now, my pigeon has had this disease for close to 3 months now (he's been with me for almost 2 months and he had it for @2 weeks prio), but I reckon he is just now technically rid of it? So 4-6 weeks from now he should not be a danger anymore to my pigeons? I don't plan on putting them together for starters, but would like to give him a bit more room to practice flying. On various other articles I found the virus is very resistant and can survive for months in sores and other infected material. I was careful to remove the sores that fel off him, but he had many and I only found the large ones. I most likely disposed of the rest when cleaning, but you never know. 100 degrees steam kills the virus, so I'm considering giving that balcony a steam cleaning. 

I admit I feel keeping him in a box for 4-6 more months feels harsh, but not sure what else I can do.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm too looking for informations about pox virus.

I read too that pox is really contagious and that the virus is very resistant even in the environment (it can survive to many disinfectants so give a steam cleaning to the balcony is a good idea). I read that the incubation period is from 4 to 12 days and that often the pigeon spontaneously recovers in 3/4 weeks (if a secondary infection doesn't appear). I read about the vaccination of healthy birds but I didn't find an answer to the main question: when the pigeon stops to be a carrier?

I asked the question to a friend who rescues pigeons, she said that she thinks that when all sores are gone the pigeon stops to be contagious. She said that she had a horrible case of pox; when recovered, she put him with another pigeon and nothing happened..

My brother's pigeon became a big, strong and healthy guy. He lost all sores but became blind in one eye; the only problem is that sometimes it oozed so my brother had to clean the eye (even after a really long period). It stopped some months ago. My brother doesn't know what to do...

I watched the clip, he looks fine and vigilant but, yes, the wing is hanging. In case he can't fly, don't worry, he can have a good life. I have a broken wing pigeon, Apple, and she is a really happy pigeon. If the wing was broken, his flying abilities depend on how it healed. Apple has her own independence: she is able to jump from the floor to the table for example. She walks a lot, runs, has a lovely husband. She had a bad period because she didn't understand why she couldn't fly but now she is living a happy "pigeon life". If needed, I can give you any advice. In any case, let see what happens when he will have more space.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I forgot to thank you for the link, I'm going to read the doc as soon as possible.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Hey there,

Yep, I had the same issue with determining when it's safe to not quarantine him anymore. Everybody just assumes you vaccinate all pigeons.

How do you mean "bad period because she didn't understand why she couldn't fly"? How did she behave?

I'm concerned because he's never tried to fly out of the box - even if he technically has the freedom to do so. That's not a pigeon that never flew, he was out and about on his own for a while, shouldn't he have tried to get out of that box yet? He used to fly on buildings, how would a half a meter box be a stop for him? I hear him occasionally flapping in the morning, yesterday it sounded quite strong too - like it had that slight whistle they have.

He's not taken a 3rd bath still, and I'm thinking of waiting for him to at least take one before trying to let him move around, since he still had sores after the last. Not that it's a huge thing, but still.

Thanks for the notes from your friend, it's reassuring!


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes, it's strange that he never tries to fly out of the box.
As the vet told me, flying abilities depend on how a broken wing heals. 

Maybe he just doesn't feel his wings strong enough to try to fly or maybe he gets used to the box and doesn't feel stimulated to go out of it.

Maybe he can't fly and needs time to understand and learn his new condition of "non flying pigeon".

At the beginning Apple didn't understand what was wrong, she often flapped her wings (she made "helicopters" as I use to say) without success, she didn't understand the reason because she suddenly couldn't fly (when I rescued her she was an adult). So she had a bad period, I mean she was sad and disoriented. I had to hand feed her for months, she didn't move a lot. She wasn't able to jump from the floor to the sofa for example. Then the situation changed (when she met Marshall, her husband, she became a really happy pigeon and fortunately restarted to eat by herself!): now she has her own independence, she knows what she can do. When she wants to go somewhere she studies a "mental map" to go there. She is able to jump from the floor to a table (sometimes I think she is training for the next Olympics game 😀 ! ) .

So maybe even your guy just needs to learn and understand his new "status". If so, he just needs time, little by little he will learn.
Don't worry, he can be a happy pigeon, I can see in Apple's eyes joy and happiness.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Today I pulled the curtains as well as I could and let the little guy in the closed balcony from my bedroom (larger than the one I kept him in). I also put a grating at the door, because my pigeons can go under the drapes. My Coil (thats the male) was very curious about the other guy when he saw him chasing some seed on the floor and was fretting near the grate but eventually gave up and left the room. He didn't coo or anything, they just looked intently at each other.

The little guy did try to jump on a box, but failed, and didn't try more. I caught him - much to his dismay, he whines a lot when I try to catch him - and let him on the window sill there (it's wide enough to walk on). Figured jumping down would be easier than flying up - but last I checked on him he was just watching outside. 

I'll let him there every day for starters. Maybe his muscles are weak after 2 months of being stuck in a box.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, seems like flying is not in the cards for him, at least yet. I was trying to catch him to put him back so he can eat, and he jumped from the window sill, fell off, and couldn't even land properly, his legs buckled on landing. Before putting him on the window sill, he was fretting on the floor looking up at the window, after putting him on the sill, he hid behind some plants and just looked outside. He's lively, he eats, he preens, but he doesn't seem interested in anything other than watching out of the window.

Is is a possibility that he just needs exercise? Or not being able to fly now means its out forever?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He has been through quite a lot. Compared to a human, it's like being bedridden for months. Like you said, maybe he just needs time to recover and get the muscles working again. Can't you build him a ladder, so that he can get to the windowsill on his own? That way he will be using his wings to get up there as well.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm willing to give him as much time as he needs, but I sure hope he will not be forever ground bound. He recovered unhoped for well from the pox, it would be a shame to stay a cripple. I'll let him free in the balcony every day although I'm wary about letting him permanently there in case my pigeons manage to get through the curtains - I don't know if they will attack him and I can't be there all the time.

I'll see about building a ladder - won't be easy, the sill is about a meter high and he can't jump even half of that. The box he tried to jump on was about 40-50 cm tall and he failed that.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would put either stairs or a ramp up for your bird to get up there. A ladder would be kind of difficult for him I think. In the loft for my flightless birds, I have shelves in different areas, or low shelves to jump up on.

When I had one of my flightless birds inside for a while, in the bird room where I keep them when inside, I have their cages on tables. I used boxes to make like a staircase for him to be able to get up and down from the table. Small boxes that one would be just a bit higher than the next one. He could jump up and walk across the box to the next level where he would jump up again. I made them so that it wouldn't be a big jump, and he did very well. Of course, this was in the bird room, and not where I would have to keep walking around or climbing over them all the time. But a board used for a ramp that you can take back down when not in use may be a good idea. As long as it is not too steep for him to walk up. And not too slippery for traction.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Maybe he just doesn't feel his wings or himself strong enough to fly, it could be a possibility (we can rule out the option "get used to the box). Let him free in the balcony everyday is an excellent idea. Give him time and see what happens. 

It's not a similar situation but in summer 2014 we rescued in the parking of an Italian supermarket a young dove hit by a car. He had a bad hole in the crop but the wings and legs were not injured. For a period he didn't fly and essentially didn't move. He stayed where we put him (in fact, I didn't have to keep him closed in a box/cage). We were worried to see him sitting for ever in a "wheelchair" but, after a period, he started to fly, walks and move again.

I really hope too that he will start to fly again but, in the negative case, believe me, he can have a happy life.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, when I said ladder I didn't mean literally one . I built him today one out of varying heights boxes.

In the morning I decided to take him out so he can exercise, and in this idea I've put him on the medium sized box thinking that while he couldn't fly up to it, he could jump off it. After 10 minutes he was still fretting on it, so I put a smaller box next to it, see if that makes him more courageous - but he kinda ignored it. I built a ramp from the small one down from a folded carpet, but he still seemed uninterested in getting off. Eventually I figured I'd better put him down myself, as he would at least walk around and eat. As soon as I did that, he hoped on the smaller box then to the bigger one back. Turned out he wasn't interested in going down because he just didn't want to go there, so I found a bigger box and another small one to put on it, which he hoped on instantly and got him on the window sill, then he hid again in the same plants as yesterday and he's not moved from there since morning. I assume I'll have to put him on the floor at some point so he can eat.

Edit: I just put him on the floor so he can eat but he hopped instantly back on the first box and then back up towards the window sill. The last box is a shoes one and it's slippery so I extended a palm to help him from it and he actually accepted it. He's back in his plants place (he seemed to peck some this morning, they are ferns). I've put his food bowl there, he just seems to not want the floor in the slightest.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They prefer a higher place. It's where they feel safe. If he is hiding, then maybe he doesn't feel safe.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Most likely he doesn't feel safe - it's a completely foreign place for him. In all honesty, we didn't handle him a lot when he was sick - well, I cleaned him a couple of times and we hand fed him, but generally left him alone - and he's terrified of us. He makes these pitiful sounds when I have to catch him, and looks so scared, I don't really want to do it. For taking him out of the box, I just lift him on his shoe box lid and let him off it on his own, but if he's in that plant place, I can only take him out by catching him. 

I made him hop a couple of times today, but the last round he just stopped on the middle box, where his "bed" is (the shoe box lid he's stood on since day 1) and nestled there. I find it interesting he went to sleep on it even if it was unwrapped in its usual towel (I put all the towels he used to heavy washing). When I saw he did that, I just picked him box and all and deposited him in his usual place for sleep. 

He lost a lot of feathers today, the balcony was full of them. I think he's moulting, but overall his feathers look better. I took my own pigeon in that balcony with me to get them used to each other and he wanted to go to the little dude, but I restricted him (to his annoyment). I really hope he won't attack him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't make him hop if he doesn't want to. It may be difficult for him. If he just stayed there, maybe it tired him out. Maybe he doesn't feel well enough. The idea of the boxes was just in case he _wanted_ to use them. If he is that scared, then he really needs to be with other pigeons. He would be more comfortable the way.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

The only other pigeons I can offer him are my own, which are a pair, and not sure how they would react. They are currently in their "honeymoon week" when they are giving up the old eggs and seeking a new nest. I'm taking my male pigeon with me in the balcony, but I don't dare leaving them too close, in case he attacks him. I also don't know how used is he with other pigeons, every time I saw him outside before getting him he was alone. I'm feeding the small flock I have near my building and he never came to eat with them. I thought that maybe because of his disease he got isolated.

Today he doesn't seem very interested in exercise. I took him out of his box in the usual way, not catching him, just taking his "bed" out, and he tried to jump back. He's clearly not comfortable with going outside of the box, but he can't live his life there. He's now jumped on the first box, then then second, then I heard him on the floor, and went back to first and 2nd, and back to first. Might he be tired after yesterday? Should I not take him out every day?

I went to take some pics and found him on the window sill. Looked like he was trying to peck lost seed, so I put his food bowl up there and he went to eat.
This is the plant place he goes - right near the wall. He sits there and watches outside for hours if left alone: http://oi67.tinypic.com/2pqqj2e.jpg
This is how he gets up: http://oi68.tinypic.com/333v9s5.jpg .


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I would just let him do what he wants, if I were you. Put some newspapers on the windowsill with a brick on top. Let him spend time there during the day, and if he wants to sleep there (I'm sure he will) that's also fine. Every morning you can just remove the top newspaper with the droppings on. Would actually be better if you can put a table there that's the same height as the windowsill. Then there's more space for him and his food.

He just needs time now to fully recover. Don't force him to do things, he will at his own pace.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I can't do the brick and newspapers thing, the sill is slightly slanted and they would fall off - plus he paces along the sill. It's no problem though if he poops on it, its easily washable. Sadly I don't have a table that height - and it would be difficult to fit there anyway. 

I just left him to his own devices today after he got up the sill. He didn't get down from there. He got a bit restless earlier and was walking on the sill back and forth so I placed his bed there, and poked him gently on it - and so took him back to his box. It's getting dark now, so I reckon he was looking for his sleeping box. I'll let him sleep in the balcony when he gets more comfortable with it.

Maybe letting him interact some with my lady pigeon would be a better idea for starters. She's very pigeon-y in behaviour, unlike my male.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Marina. You could find a small table or someway to put something up there for him to have more room. I did the same in the room where I had my flightless pigeon. I turned a dog crate on its side and covered it with cardboard, then newspaper. There is always a way when you want to do something to make it a bit better for them. Also, I would use more boxes or something to make the jump between boxes a bit less of a jump. The boxes i arranged for my flightless bird were only a couple inches to jump up. There are lots of things to make it better and easier for him...........just takes a little imagination. It can be fun to try to think of ways to do it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I can find more boxes to lower the gap. However, I simply don't have any piece of furniture that is a meter tall and would fit in there, as the space left is rather small. I could try to move some of the plants somewhere else, but their support is lower than the sill (about 20-25 cm lower). I'll see about doing that.

I will be gone for about 10 days starting the 15th, as I'm traveling abroad, but my husband is staying home. Still, he's not as close to the little guy in taking care, so I'd rather leave him in as stable of an environment as I can, as he's not gonna have somebody to check on him as often as I do.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I refined his "ladder" today and he hops on it effortlessly. 

I also introduced him to my pigeons in the living room. For the next 10 minutes, all 3 of them stood stunned. My male pigeon came cooing in the start, but he retreated when I told him no biting (not sure if he actually gets it but he did not attempt to bite). Catching the little guy back took a bit, as he bolted to the couch and managed to get on it in 2 tries. 

I've put him on the floor and he ran up to the sill, where I prepared his "bed" in the plant place and put him on it. He's sleeping in there tonight, not sure what he thinks about it, but it's warmer than in his old place at least. I'll try to make some more room for him tomorrow.

I'm really wondering about his gender. Frame wise he looks more like my male to be honest - my hen has shorter legs and is generally rounder. My male did try to peck his tail when he ran on the couch. I'll try to take a picture of all of them together next time.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Here is his new "home", managed to set it up yesterday: http://oi64.tinypic.com/11t7x1g.jpg

It was getting dark when I finished so I put him on his new "bed" (threw away his old box, it's probably full of pox viruses), but he disagreed with it and went back on the sill. He seems rather tentative on going on the new place, but I've seen him eating in the morning, so at least I'm not worrying he's gonna starve himself. I hope he will get more used to it and enjoy it. I think he was feeling more safe in his old place, but it's gotten cold outside and that place is colder. Plus, I hope he will find the courage to move around more, albeit he doesn't seem inclined to roaming at all presently. My pigeons only have eyes for each other currently, they barely even notice me, so I'm not putting them together anymore for now.

I will be traveling for a week and a half starting tomorrow, but my husband will be at home. I'll have to find a way to bar that balcony before I go, so it's not easily accessible for my pigeons. They had no interest in it these days, but they are busy with their lovey-dovey thing.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

You managed a nice place for him; pigeons suffer cold and humidity so it's surely better for him to stay there.

You could put somewhere a plastic box (you know, the ones which contain fruits or vegetables, see the photo): put inside it paper and, if you want, a puppy pad trainer. My pigeons like these boxes ; if you want to spoil him you could even put a cushion under the puppy pad trainer (yes, I spoil my pigeons 😁 ) . It could become his new bed and/or his new safe place (good decision threw away his old box). A box is also easy to clean (you can wash it in the bath tub or in the shower).

If you have some free time (when you will be back home, of course) you could even make him a "home" like the one I handmade. I can explain you how to make it, it's not complicated, you just need some time and patience. He could feel safe and comfortable inside it. My pigeon Bruna absolutely loves it (in these last days my pigeon Caterina and her husband Ben are trying to chase her from it because they want to move there 😡...) !

EDIT: I forgot to attach the pic of the plastic box, sorry...


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

That looks like a happy and comfortable pigeon and I hope to see my little guy same someday. Right now, he is just terrified and constantly looking out, probably at the life he lost, not looking happy at all. My own pigeons have not been so terrified of us ever. He was actually more "friendly" when he was sick, though I suppose he didn't have enough energy to be unfriendly.

I wonder if I stress him too much going all the time to check on him. Often he trembles when he sees me, sometimes his wing twitches. I'd leave him alone but he will have to get used to us eventually.

I'll see about the crate business when I come back.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Wing twitching and trembling can be a sign that the pigeon really likes you. Our females have done that with me especially if they are not paired with a male.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

When sick, pigeons often act "tame" and friendly. He will be more relaxed when amongst other pigeons. If you can screen off that area so that they can at least see each other, by the time you get back they will be more used to each other. Introducing them will be more easier then.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Marina's idea is a good one, however the other male may not be very friendly to him if he is a male. So you just need to be a bit patient with them. He is a wild bird, and very normal for them to be petrified of humans. To him, we are predators. He never knows what will happen to him next. Poor thing.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will not let them together unsupervised under any circumstances. I have a grating that I used to block the window for him, I'll use it to block the lower part of the door and use the curtains to cut off the rest. He would be able to see in the house and the other pigeons there if they both came there, but he showed no interest so far to get off his window sill. Every time I've put him on the floor he fled up the "ladder" as fast as he could.

I can understand his terror, he's had both his wings broken and I suspect there's high chances it was a human. Still, he doesn't look anywhere close to being releasable, so...we are his only chance for now.

I am worried about missing for 10 days. I'm the one that took care of him mostly, and his main "company" - which I'm not sure he appreciates. Will he suffer from lack of it?

I'll miss the lot of them greatly. I always worry about them when I have to miss for several days.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Every time my significant other took turns caring for Phoebe, she would just switch her allegiance tipo the caretaker (“ love tge one you’ re with”) and would bite the other person who then returned.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

When I missed last year (same time), my pigeon danced around me for half an hour when I returned. The biting is fine, he bites both us anyway all the time. More worried about the little one, as he has no pigeon company.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can put a mirror next to his favourite spot. Males will sometimes act aggressive when seeing their own image (an intruder). If he does, then just remove the mirror.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I will try that when I get back, but my own male pigeon never reacted in any way to mirrors, although he is very territorial.

I know this probably belongs to another topic, but hoping to get a quick reply here in case you are watching it: I left home yesterday, and my lady pigeon had laid an egg - unfortunatelly I don't know when, they have their nest up on a wardrobe and I don't intrude on them. Problem is she has not laid the 2nd yet (I asked my husband to check) and she seems to not be able to fly up there today. She ate a little and considered a bath (but got out immediately) but I am worried, as I've never seen her having issues flying. I fear she could get eggbound. I'm always worried about her calcium, since she lays a pair of eggs monthly. I do give her grit, though she doesn't seem to care about it, and pecks the flower pots around the house (ceramic ones and some are flaking). Is moving the nest down so she can get to it a good idea? Catching her is a problem, she is not used to being handled and we never caught her - but can try that too.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I gave advice in your other thread. If you have a heatpad, maybe you can put the nest on the heatpad and her on top. She needs a bit of heat. Grit does not provide enough calcium, indoor birds need calcium with added Vit D3.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

All good, 2nd egg laid last night <3.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Very glad to hear she laid the second egg!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

She still seems to have some issues flying (my husband arrived after dark yesterday and found her under the bed, nest empty). He helped her up the wardrobe, and she ran at the nest after a few minutes. We thought maybe she got scared of the camera (it has a blinking led light) and took that down - to my dismay, as I liked being able to see them. She seems to be eating, but we're monitoring her for now. I bought an UV light and calcium from here for her, for when I get back. 

Little guy was apparently on the floor this morning, first time he got down on his own. He might have been hungry, my husband was trapped in the snow yesterday for 6 hours on his return trip and he got home after dark.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, today my husband found my male pigeon on the window sill next to the little guy. They were both peaceful, contemplating the outside. We have no idea how he got there, through the secured curtain. I'm glad the little one had some company. His movement is still poor, he got down from the window sill but pretty difficult, and he keeps catching his claws in the carpet I built his ladder from, although it's not a particularly shaggy one. I will replace it with some kind of vinyl carpet when I get home.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Easy for them to catch their claws in fabric, that is why I only use wood. The wood can be roughened a bit for traction, and as long as it isn't too steep, they don't have a problem. Also be sure his claws are trimmed to a good length.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Got home, my little guy is a bit bigger, though still very static. He likes his window sill and never shows any interest in going in other places. He also doesn't seem interested in my pigeons - nor they in him really. He now has free access to any part of the house but doesn't even get off the window sill, nevermind leave the balcony. 

http://oi66.tinypic.com/32zl53n.jpg

Yesterday I cleaned up the balcony and put him in the living room for the duration. He fretted a bit on the carpet, but didn't really move much, so I took him to the office and offered him a bath. He ignored the bath (hasn't taken any other except that first one and I'd really like him to be more into that dept) and just started eying the window - so I eventually got him up, although the sill there is very narrow. I also opened the window (got a kind of a cage out, so he can't escape, but can step out of the room and be close to the feral pigeons). He was a bit scared of the window, but he did eventually go there and looked at the other pigeons.

Unfortunately, I am more and more convinced that flying is out of his future.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor thing, it will take time. At least he looks happy. I'm sure he will start interacting with your pigeons soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Many of them don't bathe till they see other pigeons bathing. Then they want to join in. But alone, nothing to induce them to go into the water. They kind of learn from the others. Also if not feeling well they won't bathe.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, he took a bath right after his lesions fell off, just not since. He doesn't seem interested in the company of my pigeons yet. As for not feeling well...he's got no physical issues I can see - other than the wings problem, which may well be permanent.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well...just as I was complaining of no interaction in my pigeon family, hell broke loose.

This morning my male pigeon, Coil, started decidedly to pay the little one a house visit. The little dude (I really need to think of a name, but hard when you don't know gender) fluffed up, started cooing and making snapping gestures at my Coil, which chased Coil away. 

Bit later, I took the little dude in the office to see the outside pigeons. Left him a little, but can't keep the window open a lot nowadays, as it's freezing outside, then took him back and put him on the floor, so he gets used to that ladder. Coil caught the moment and flew on the window sill, running towards my guy's "house" - which turned into a race, since my little dude was also running to defend his place. He got up and started cooing Coil away, and Coil gave up. He started cooing and bowing on the ladder steps, though it seemed more the happy dance cooing rather than war dance one.

I went for my coffee, and shortly heard commotion in the balcony. To my dismay, my 2 pigeons were locked in battle at each other throats on the window sill. I separated them, gave them a solid scolding, which I am sure they will ignore. Still, it seems it's the little one that is attacking, as he tried to charge again at Coil when I was there.

I have blocked the balcony for now. None of them are hurt, but I don't feel like letting them together unsupervised. 

The little one has a throaty coo, and grunts closer to how my female does, but I didn't hear enough pigeons to know if that is a gender indication. He was also twitching his wing while cooing. Would a female attack like that or is that a clear indication he is a male?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He will defend what he perceives to be his territory. That's normal. Or if he feels threatened, which may be the case also. Either a male or female will defend their space. He could be a male though, in which case they may not get along. Then it may just take a while for them to get used to each other. Easier to get them used to each other when they can't actually get to each other.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Today has been another eventful day. 

Somehow my Coil managed to pass through the curtain in the balcony while I was away and I found Blue (decided to call the little one that, since he loves the sky so much and it works for either gender) sitting in some plants, with his face all bitten, while Coil was strutting on the window sill. I got pretty angry.

Soon after Coil went to nest, and I decided to get Blue in the office so he can see the outside pigeons, though opening the window now is really unpleasant, with temperatures out being in the negatives. He didn't seem that willing to stay in cold either so I closed the window pretty quickly and set him on the floor. Honey (that's my female pigeon) got really curious when I brought him out of the balcony and flew to my shoulder to peer at him closely. She rarely flies to people. 

I scattered some hemp seed on the carpet, which I knew would interest Honey greatly, and Blue became also interested, seeing her peck. She's a bit greedy and was jumping to steal his seed, but he eventually got to eat a few too. 

The she went for a bath and splashed him all over. When she got out, he went for a splash too. They are currently both chilling on the carpet and it's nice to see him less obsessed with the window. 

Should I put some cream on his scratches? I think I'll tape that curtain in place, and just let him out when Honey is off the nest. She is a very gentle pigeon, unlike my male, who has trained biting humans since he was a baby.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If they are not going to be caged then it should be set up so that they cannot get to each other. Your male is going to really injure him. Up to you to keep him safe. Not really fair to him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I don't have a properly sized cage so I will just have to find a way to seal that balcony. This means he will spend a lot of time alone, but not much else I can do. He did get along well with Honey, followed her around, doing what she was doing. He didn't sing to her or anything, just followed her around. Unfortunately, she has really short shifts off the nest these days, since it gets dark early.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't be putting a mated hen in to spend time with him too often. Will just make her mate feel more threatened by him. That is probably why he was attacked to begin with. The mate doesn't want another male in their territory, and he is probably a male. A third wheel often doesn't work with a mated pair. Makes it hard, I know.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I knew from the start there will be issues with keeping him with another pair, not for me, but for him. I also can't think about finding a mate for him until I figure out his gender, and even then, I don't know where I will find an unreleasable pigeon, as I hate taking their freedom away from them. As for his gender...it's really hard to tell. "He" started making calls in the morning, but he sounds like my hen does when she wants something, doesn't do the hoo-hoo-roo-roo my Coil does, though technically I heard Honey do the hoo-hoo-roo, albeit more throaty. He doesn't bow and strut like Coil does. All he did with Honey was watch what she was doing and mimicking her.

I'm thinking about letting my pigeons have a round of chicks in spring if I can find a breeder that would accept them. If that happens, maybe one of those chick could be a mate - but that's a long term thing, as I've not approached any breeder yet and I don't know if they'd be interested in non-pedigree birds. 

Until then, we'll have to manage as it is. If I see any mating interest developing, I will separate him from Honey, but it feels bad to let him just stare at the window all day. The scratches from yesterday seem barely visible today but I'll think of a more secure way to close the balcony anyway.

Here are some pics of him today. Honey flew up on her favourite spot (she's the one on the plant, that fern used to be glorious, but my pigeons destroyed it) and Blue was looking wistfully up, so after he managed to climb on the couch and then on a nearby plant, I invited him on my hand and got him near her. 2nd pic has the bitten eye - it had red scratches yesterday but they seem gone today. The eye is a bit bald around from the pox - that is the eye that used to be fully covered. He actually tried to fly up, but only managed about half a meter before falling down.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/33lz2oo.jpg
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2a6uvc5.jpg

And this is the beast - my male pigeon: http://oi65.tinypic.com/2s9ewsw.jpg He's the tame one of the bunch, but likes to wrestle and he's trained on humans.


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