# injured beak



## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi everyone
I'm hoping someone here can offer me some advice. I had a very
unfortunate accident with my doves last night. My diamond doves were
in their cage sitting on their nest, and I also have lovebirds who
were out of their cage last night. When my back was turned the
lovebirds had gone on top of the dd cage and were trying to attack
them through the cage bars. When I noticed and shooed them away, I
realised one of my doves was bleeding, and saw that her upper madible
had been bitten off just below the cere ( I stopped the bleeding,
rushed her to the emergency hospital (where they don't have avian
specialists by the way). They said she was stable for over night.
This morning I went to my avian vet and he said that her beak would
never grow back. That her only chance is to adapt to eating her food
by scooping it up with her lower madible  I have been watching her
all day, and she hasn't been successful in eating and it's breaking
my heart. I finally hand fed her with baby formula. What I wanted
to ask is, have any of you heard of prosthetic beaks for doves? I
have heard of this for larger birds, and I'm wondering if it can also
be done for such a tiny bird. This morning I was crying so much, I
forgot to ask about it from my vet  I am so worried about her!
She keeps pecking at the food, but can't get anything  Any
guidance and advice would be very much appreciated.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I can't answer your question about prosthetics, but be patient with her it takes time for them to adapt when they have beak injuries. My vet who never sugests euthanasia while there is quality of life suggested that my Toffee's beak injury was so bad he should be put to sleep. For a time I had to suppport him by tube feeding but eventually he was able to eat on his own. 

Have you got her seed in a deep dish?


Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It has been discussed in many cases as a theoretical option. Fortunately, we've never had to implement it although there was a time in the UK when a deranged person was going around using something like wire-cutting pliers to cut the beaks off of several birds. I think that all that were captures were put to sleep.

Anyhow, to do it for your bird would require some very tiny stainless wires to be implanted and affixed and then for dental acrylic to be formed as a prosthetic, I think. I have not seen actual drawings for that kind of thing but it's technically possible. Usually, when such a thing is done, a dentist is employed in conjunction with a veterinarian. This would be the smallest version that I've ever heard of but if you're serious, I think it can be done.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, can you provide a picture of the beak as it currently is? Don't get too close in order to keep the picture from being fuzzy (most cameras can't focus any closer than 4 feet) and use the highest possible resolution, then crop only the necessary portion of the picture.

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

cyro51 said:


> I can't answer your question about prosthetics, but be patient with her it takes time for them to adapt when they have beak injuries. My vet who never sugests euthanasia while there is quality of life suggested that my Toffee's beak injury was so bad he should be put to sleep. For a time I had to suppport him by tube feeding but eventually he was able to eat on his own.
> 
> Have you got her seed in a deep dish?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response Cynthia. I will definitely be patient with her and be there for her for as long as she needs me. It just breaks my heart to watch her peck and peck at the food and not get anything  But I understand it's only the first day, and she needs time to adapt.

Yes I got her a really deep and wide dish so that it's always full and she can sink her beak fully into it.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> It has been discussed in many cases as a theoretical option. Fortunately, we've never had to implement it although there was a time in the UK when a deranged person was going around using something like wire-cutting pliers to cut the beaks off of several birds. I think that all that were captures were put to sleep.
> 
> Anyhow, to do it for your bird would require some very tiny stainless wires to be implanted and affixed and then for dental acrylic to be formed as a prosthetic, I think. I have not seen actual drawings for that kind of thing but it's technically possible. Usually, when such a thing is done, a dentist is employed in conjunction with a veterinarian. This would be the smallest version that I've ever heard of but if you're serious, I think it can be done.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey, I just want her to survive this, and I'm willing to explore all my options. I feel terrible about this, and I will never be able to forgive myself if I don't do everything possible to save her life.  

I will take a picture right now...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Exactly how far in front of the ceres (nostrils) does the upper beak now end, by the way (in millimeters)?

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

About 1 mm. I'm uploading the photo now.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Here she is


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Poofybird said:


> Pidgey, I just want her to survive this, and I'm willing to explore all my options. I feel terrible about this, and I will never be able to forgive myself if I don't do everything possible to save her life.
> 
> I will take a picture right now...


Oh, I don't think survival is a problem in a home setting. Might mean fuss and trouble but survival shouldn't be difficult. There's probably far less pain involved than you might think, for one thing--more frustration with eating. There are pigeon breeds that almost don't have a beak in front of the ceres, top and bottom. While they may look funny, eating isn't a problem although, obviously, they don't have "mixed" equipment. There was a person on here a year ago plus that had a bird that had lost the lower beak due to a disease process. It learned to eat out of a deep dish with it's little pouch of a lower mandible. The main spars going back to the joints (actually under the eyes) were fine--but the didn't joint out at the front anymore. It was actually shorter than your bird's current problem.

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, I don't think survival is a problem in a home setting. Might mean fuss and trouble but survival shouldn't be difficult. There's probably far less pain involved than you might think, for one thing--more frustration with eating. There are pigeon breeds that almost don't have a beak in front of the ceres, top and bottom. While they may look funny, eating isn't a problem although, obviously, they don't have "mixed" equipment. There was a person on here a year ago plus that had a bird that had lost the lower beak due to a disease process. It learned to eat out of a deep dish with it's little pouch of a lower mandible. The main spars going back to the joints (actually under the eyes) were fine--but the didn't joint out at the front anymore. It was actually shorter than your bird's current problem.
> 
> Pidgey


This is very reassuring. I don't mind the trouble, I just want her to be healthy, and not suffer. For the time being, since she's not succeeding in eating on her own yet, how often should I hand feed her, and how many ccs each serving?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2007)

Thankfully, the sinuses were not affected by this injury. There is still a choanal slit in the roof of her mouth so her breathing probably won't be affected.
In theory, the lower beak can be cut down and surgery done on the tongue to shorten it.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

So sorry to hear about your dove.
Your picture, BTW was excellent. 

I would agree with Cynthia, in that, give your dove, & yourself, a bit of time to adjust (& observe) before going to extreme measures. 
You may have to help her some, but that's what we do when the need arises.  

Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Poofybird,

I'm so sorry to hear about the accident.

Pigeons and doves seem to adjust to situations, just give her time.

The picture is quite excellent. I think pigeonperson might be onto something to with a little surgery, it is worth investigating.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Nothin to worry about. once the pain subsides it'll start eating normally


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

After looking at it, I'd definitely give that one some time to adapt as well as see how far it might work out. It looks like there's plenty there to affix a prosthetic there in the future if you decided to go that route, too, and possibly just by using special glues. A very custom fit would have to be done, though.

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Oh!! Thank you all so much! I've been worried sick since last night. I'm happy to hear that she will more than likely adapt. I'm going back to my vet on Wednesday. Hopefully this time I'll be more calm and be able to discuss all my options with him  I'm hoping there won't be any need for drastic measures. Thank you all again very much


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

At this point, I tend to agree with what Pidgey is saying. I would not do anything other than providing it with a deep dish both for its seed and water and give it at least a month to see how things work out. The beak does seem long enough that s/he should be able to adapt to the new configuation of the beak. Just keep a close eye to make sure she is able to self maintain and give it some time.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

is she drinking ok. I am a bit concern coz pije & doves suck water up


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

I saw her drink, I think it went up, and her poops have been really watery since she hasn't been able to eat solid food. Also, I'm feeding her a liquid based baby formula, which should also keep her hydrated?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds like it. Is it Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula? If so, what proportions are you mixing it at? I always do it by eye for the consistency that I want after at least two minutes of mixing, but I think it's supposed to be in the 2-to-1 (water to powder) ratio.

Pidgey


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

thats good, make sure that there is atleast 2 inches of water for her. poop could be watery because she has not been eating too well or because of stress. stress is a major problem in animals...


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Give her a little time to adapt, she seems to have figured out how to drink, just make sure the seeds are at least an 1" deep, 2" is better both for the food and water, she will, I'm sure, figure out how to eat the seeds once she can get her beak deep into them. The baby food will help in the meantime and yes, it will loosen up her droppings.

Ron


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Sounds like it. Is it Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula? If so, what proportions are you mixing it at? I always do it by eye for the consistency that I want after at least two minutes of mixing, but I think it's supposed to be in the 2-to-1 (water to powder) ratio.
> 
> Pidgey


No, I'm using Hagen's Tropican formula (it's a Canadian brand), theye didn't have Kaytee in stock. The instructions say 1:4 formula:water ratio, and that's what I did. After stirring it for about 2 mins, it has the consistency like a little bit runnier than pudding. Is that ok?


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

jazaroo said:


> Give her a little time to adapt, she seems to have figured out how to drink, just make sure the seeds are at least an 1" deep, 2" is better both for the food and water, she will, I'm sure, figure out how to eat the seeds once she can get her beak deep into them. The baby food will help in the meantime and yes, it will loosen up her droppings.
> 
> Ron


Yep both her dishes are that deep  Thanks a lot for your help!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The Kaytee has different proportions for different ages, the 2-to-1 being for older chicks and adults. I mix it according to what I want to do with the bird--if it's more dehydrated, I go with more water, otherwise no.

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> The Kaytee has different proportions for different ages, the 2-to-1 being for older chicks and adults. I mix it according to what I want to do with the bird--if it's more dehydrated, I go with more water, otherwise no.
> 
> Pidgey


Yeah, so does this one. It says for hatching to 2 days old feed 1:7 ratio, and for 3 days to weaning 1:4 ratio. So I went with the 1:4 ratio cuz it was for older birds. I think the other is way too runny.

Just wondering though, how often do you recommend that I feed her? Today I've done it twice so far. I'm using a 1.00 cc syringe.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, well, by the book they drink 5 to 8% of their weight in water per day. For raising nestlings, it's usually 10 to 15% of their weight in formula three times per day but that always seems to get my adult birds gaining weight when I do that. So, if you've got a 100 gram dove, it's going to drink about 5 milliliters of water per day which is only a teaspoon. If you back-figured that at a 1-to-4 ratio, it'd be only a quarter teaspoon of formula per day by that method which doesn't seem right. At the other extreme, you'd be looking at a maximum of 15 milliliters of formula, three times per day, or about 2/3rds of a teaspoon of actual formula times three. Just seems like an awful lot of water for the poor bird. Since I don't know Hagens, I'd ask Jaz.

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

ooh ok, Maybe I should just go find Kaytee tomorrow.. She only weighs 34 grams, so when you put it that way it's way too much water for her  I'm sorry, I've never done this before..


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, yeah, I forgot--diamond doves are especially small, aren't they? I think the Hagens is really good stuff... it's just a matter of getting the amount right. I suppose you could do it the hard way--feel the crop for fullness and weigh the bird every day to track whether you're going up, down or maintaining.

Pidgey


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, yeah, I forgot--diamond doves are especially small, aren't they? I think the Hagens is really good stuff... it's just a matter of getting the amount right. I suppose you could do it the hard way--feel the crop for fullness and weigh the bird every day to track whether you're going up, down or maintaining.
> 
> Pidgey


ok I will do that, I'll also call my vet tomoorw morning and ask him exactly what proportions and how much to feed her. I think they sell the Hagens brand at the vets office, so he should be familiar with it  

right now she's still trying to get at the seed, poor thing, she's been pecking at her dish all day


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I know how frightening your experience has been. A little over a year ago, a similar thing happened to my wonderful,smart and much loved Sammy. {His photo is at my signature.} The culpret in his injury was Piggy the Senegal. She had shown no agression until that time. She flew into his cage where he was a top his wodden eggs and took off part of his lower beak. I couldn't believe the amount of blood. He would shake his head and blood sprayed everywhere. I was so scared. Unable to stop the bleeding myself, I rushed him to emergency. It was absolutely unbelieveable that they knew NOTHING about birds. I insisted they call my avian veterinarian at home. I put up a ruckus until they did so. I felt guarded about him for several days and could tell he was in a lot of pain. He couldn 't eat on his own and I had to hand feed him for two weeks. Fortunately his beak did regrow although now it over grows anf I trim it every month or so. A small price indeed for beloved Sammy. I am hoping that your Dove will adjust also.
Years ago I saw a female that was sparrow missing an upper beak. She was at a feeder with a male sparrow. I was quite amazed when he fed her. No doubt he was her support in life. It was a beautiful thing to observe.
Now I am very careful that naughty Piggy has no contact with my other birds.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Charis said:


> I know how frightening your experience has been. A little over a year ago, a similar thing happened to my wonderful,smart and much loved Sammy. {His photo is at my signature.} The culpret in his injury was Piggy the Senegal. She had shown no agression until that time. She flew into his cage where he was a top his wodden eggs and took off part of his lower beak. I couldn't believe the amount of blood. He would shake his head and blood sprayed everywhere. I was so scared. Unable to stop the bleeding myself, I rushed him to emergency. It was absolutely unbelieveable that they knew NOTHING about birds. I insisted they call my avian veterinarian at home. I put up a ruckus until they did so. I felt guarded about him for several days and could tell he was in a lot of pain. He couldn 't eat on his own and I had to hand feed him for two weeks. Fortunately his beak did regrow although now it over grows anf I trim it every month or so. A small price indeed for beloved Sammy. I am hoping that your Dove will adjust also.
> Years ago I saw a female that was sparrow missing an upper beak. She was at a feeder with a male sparrow. I was quite amazed when he fed her. No doubt he was her support in life. It was a beautiful thing to observe.
> Now I am very careful that naughty Piggy has no contact with my other birds.


Wow, I'm so sorry to hear of your experience! You must understand exactly how I'm feeling. Luckily Walnut's blood clotted pretty quicky and I was able to stop it before I went to the hospital. And of course things like this always happen on Sundays  when my avian vet is closed. I had the exact same experience with the emergency vet! Honestly, he did not even know how to hold the poor bird!!! I basically payed $85 to hear him tell me there was nothing he could do  and that she should be stable till the next day. I do pray that her beak too will grow again just like Sammy. She is really precious to me, and I feel terrible for what has happened to her  and of course I too will be sure to keep those lovebirds far away from them from now on. 

Sammy looks very handsome by the way!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

I find most of the hand feeding formulas to be essentially the same. I just mix them up using very hot water, so I can better see where the consistency is going to end up, to the thickness I am trying to achieve. I think you would want something like a thin pancake batter consistency. 

I am pretty confident she will figure out how to eat with her new beak, it will take just a little time. Also, very shortly I would just be feeding her in the evening before bedtime so she is hungry enough during the day to put some pressure on her to adapt quicker. If you are going to do this I would get a weigh scale to ensure that one evening feeding is enough by tracking her weight, you don't want her losing too much weight or being undernourished. I think it will be kind of a balancing thing for a while, until all the pieces fall into place and she is stable with her new beak. I am not totally unconvinced that you may end up seeing some growth over time on it.

Ron


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

jazaroo said:


> I find most of the hand feeding formulas to be essentially the same. I just mix them up using very hot water, so I can better see where the consistency is going to end up, to the thickness I am trying to achieve. I think you would want something like a thin pancake batter consistency.
> 
> I am pretty confident she will figure out how to eat with her new beak, it will take just a little time.
> 
> Ron


Ron that is the exact consistency I'm using. How much should I feed her though in one day? And how many feedings a day?


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

You say her weight is 34 grams, is that a correct weight? One of my Budgies weighs 35 grams, so is she the size of Budgie?

Ron


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

jazaroo said:


> You say her weight is 34 grams, is that a correct weight? One of my Budgies weighs 35 grams, so is she the size of Budgie?
> 
> Ron


Yes, she was weighed at the vet's office this morning. They are very tiny birds. About the length of a budgie, cuz the also have a long tail, but they're slimmer than budgies.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jazaroo said:


> You say her weight is 34 grams, is that a correct weight? One of my Budgies weighs 35 grams, so is she the size of Budgie?
> 
> Ron


That's probably the correct weight, Ron. This is a Diamond Dove, and they are very small. http://www.answers.com/topic/diamond-dove

Terry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks Terry, this is quite a small Dove indeed.

Based on this weight she would get about 1mL to 1.5mL (one to one and a half milliliters) every 6 hours. 

Good luck with her.

Ron


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

jazaroo said:


> Thanks Terry, this is quite a small Dove indeed.
> 
> Based on this weight she would get about 1mL to 1.5mL (one to one and a half milliliters) every 6 hours.
> 
> Ron


Thanks a lot for your help


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so sorry this happened to your little diamond dove. It does appear she has quite a bit of beak left, as someone pointed out, more than short-faced pigeon breeds, so hopefully she will adapt. 

I don't have any treatment advice to add to the good advice already given, but this is a good time to remind everyone with psittacine birds that though we love them, they can't be trusted. Lovebirds make good pets (I have one myself) but they are notoriously aggressive and will attack other birds, even those larger than themselves. Their beaks have a lot of leverage and can do incredible damage in the blink of an eye. I'm not criticizing; this was an accident. I wouldn't have expected a lovebird to so badly injure another bird through the cage bars. But knowing mine, I wouldn't put it past him to try. We let him out for free flight, too, and I have to watch him like a hawk to make sure he doesn't terrorize the other cage birds or chew up our furniture! He has drawn blood on the cockatiel's feet at least three times, even with us watching, chewed two holes in the window ledge and destroyed a wooden basket.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

I think this beak can grow back with time. After all, the growth cells at the base of the beak have not been harmed and beak tissue is growing all the time.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I'm so sorry this happened to your little diamond dove. It does appear she has quite a bit of beak left, as someone pointed out, more than short-faced pigeon breeds, so hopefully she will adapt.
> 
> I don't have any treatment advice to add to the good advice already given, but this is a good time to remind everyone with psittacine birds that though we love them, they can't be trusted. Lovebirds make good pets (I have one myself) but they are notoriously aggressive and will attack other birds, even those larger than themselves. Their beaks have a lot of leverage and can do incredible damage in the blink of an eye. I'm not criticizing; this was an accident. I wouldn't have expected a lovebird to so badly injure another bird through the cage bars. But knowing mine, I wouldn't put it past him to try. We let him out for free flight, too, and I have to watch him like a hawk to make sure he doesn't terrorize the other cage birds or chew up our furniture! He has drawn blood on the cockatiel's feet at least three times, even with us watching, chewed two holes in the window ledge and destroyed a wooden basket.


You are so right! And I feel truly ashamed for having turned my back on the lovebirds when they were out of their cage, as I know what little terrorists they can be to all the other birds  I know you weren't criticizing me, or trying to make me feel bad, but I honstly do feel terrible and have been beating myself up over it since the accident happened. I made the mistake of thinking they were safe inside their cage, but because they had eggs they tried to fight the lovebirds off their cage. It was definitely a very hard lesson learned and I hope others can also learn from my terrible mistake and supervise their psittacine birds very closely when around their doves and pigeons.

I also would like to thank everyone here for being so kind and giving me so much advice. Yesteday I was so depressed and had been crying all morning thinking I was going to lose my prescious Walnut (that's her name), but you guys really gave me hope!

Just to update you guys on her, I have been handfeeding her every 6 hours as Ron recommended. Her poops are a little softer than normal, but I wouldn't call it diarrhea. She does struggle a lot when I try to feed her, but it's getting easier and she's becoming more accepting. She still keeps pecking away at her dish, but hasn't been successful yet.

Here she is, isn't she a cutie pie?










And this is her and her friend Blueberry, her feathers look kinda rough from me holding her to feed her


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

pigeonperson said:


> I think this beak can grow back with time. After all, the growth cells at the base of the beak have not been harmed and beak tissue is growing all the time.


I really hope you're right. My vet said that the black part you see below the cere is actually dying tissue and it will eventually fall off  and that it won't be growing back.. but I really hope it does!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

I just wanted to be a little clearer from my earlier post, and your replies, that not only are the dishes themselves deep, but that that you are placing into them 2 inches deep of seeds.

Ron


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

jazaroo said:


> I just wanted to be a little clearer from my earlier post, and your replies, that not only are the dishes themselves deep, but that that you are placing into them 2 inches deep of seeds.
> 
> Ron


Yes I got you  and it is. The seed is filled almost to the rim. She can definitely sink her entire beek into the seed, she just has to learn that she needs to do that.


This is the dish, and the height and width of it is actually bigger than both birds themselves. Remember these are tiny birds


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Poofybird!

Walnut is just lovely! Unless pictured with a pigeon, it's hard to tell how tiny they really are!

The help and advice here has been terrific and I know you feel much better!

I join with other members to offer LOVE, HUGS, SCRITCHES and HEALING THOUGHTS for you both!

A question did come to mind. Pigeonperson had mentioned beak and tongue trimming. I wondered about the tongue. With some exposed, will the tongue tend to dry out?

I look forward to positive updates!


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

Poofy,
I've had parrots all of my life. I've never had a situation where the beak actually broke off but they had injuries like small cracks further up and over time, the cracks moved forward and eventually disappeared as the beak grew. I think your dove could very well have a new beak in time.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

mr squeaks said:


> Hi Poofybird!
> 
> Walnut is just lovely! Unless pictured with a pigeon, it's hard to tell how tiny they really are!
> 
> ...


Thank you very much  
I did wonder the same about the tongue, but honestly I can't even see it. Their tongues are so tiny like a needle! It appears to still be covered by what is left of the beak. 
I will definitely keep you guys posted on her progress  We have another vet appointment tomorrow at 10:30.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

Poofy,
This series of discussions pertain to a broken beak on a pigeon:

www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000452


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks a lot! I will go read it now!


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

Poofy,
The one error a poster made there is the use of Krazy Glue. If a bird gets a whiff of that stuff, a chemical pneumonia can set in. Vetbond is a safe product. It's a super glue formulated for animals. I know you can't fix this beak but it's a good thing to know that Vetbond is available on the web.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

I hope I'm never in this situation ever again, but it's good to know about this product.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Poofy,
> The one error a poster made there is the use of Krazy Glue. If a bird gets a whiff of that stuff, a chemical pneumonia can set in. Vetbond is a safe product. It's a super glue formulated for animals. I know you can't fix this beak but it's a good thing to know that Vetbond is available on the web.


I'm glad you brought this up because I have worried when people recommend things like Krazy Glue or liquid bandages. The odor is so strong I have always been concerned that the fumes could hurt a bird.

The only time we ever use Krazy Glue is when we attach a feeding nipple to a syringe to keep it secure. It dries quickly and the fumes are never in contact with the bird, nor is the substance. 

Pigeonperson, do you think Vetbond would secure a nipple to a syringe as well as Krazy Glue. If so, I will switch to that. We had a bad experience years ago when we were feeding a squeaker and when the plunger was depressed it shot the syringe into the crop. Scared us silly. Fortunately, the rehabber who trained us was able to manipulate the nipple out of the crop and successfully remove it from the mouth. That's when we started gluing the nipples on.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2007)

Maggie,
Would you be better off using this type of syringe? I think they are very good and have used them: They're quite soft and are in one piece so you don't have to worry about anything popping off a syringe.

http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=2150


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, they certainly look different from anything I've ever used.  

Questions: Are they reusable? Is the elongated bulb at the top used to both draw up the formula and also release it? I've always used syringes with plungers. I can see that it would probably be really good feeding baby songbirds and even newborn baby pigeons.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2007)

Maggie,
These can be sterilized. The bulb on top is for drawing in the formula and for pushing it out into the bird. This is my personal preference for getting formula down a bird. I think it's safer.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thank you for the info. I am ordering some. Now, just watch me get in a bunch of babies!


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2007)

I hope you like them. Please let me know one way or the other. Luck.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Don't beat yourself up! Lovebirds strike like lightning. Every time Lovey bit Adrian (the cockatiel) we were watching both birds closely and it happened before we could move to stop him. One incident was similar to your dove in that it was through the cage bars. We're just lucky Adrian was merely nicked and not seriously hurt. 

Your little dove is just beautiful. I've never had diamond doves before, though I've admired them in pet stores. I'm praying for her full recovery.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pigeonperson said:


> Maggie,
> Would you be better off using this type of syringe? I think they are very good and have used them: They're quite soft and are in one piece so you don't have to worry about anything popping off a syringe.
> 
> http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=2150



I like those. I will order some too.
Now, I guess they are for days old babies? I can't tell how big the syringes are.

Another (OT) question. I saw they have Poop-off. Has anybody used it? Does it work on walls and carpets?
Thanks

Reti


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2007)

They're bigger than they look in the picture.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pigeonperson said:


> They're bigger than they look in the picture.


Ditto on this comment. The pipettes do work well, but they are pretty good sized devices. The ones I have are clear and hold 10 cc.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks pp and Terry.
Will have to order them.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Poofybird,

I took care of a feral female, *Splitbeak* who was missing her upper beak (top left half flopped around). 

I don't have much time to post now, but if you would search my posts for "Splitbeak", I have written a lot about her. I describe what she ate, how she ate, where we met on the street so she could eat out of a deep seed-filled jar, her preening problems, etc.

I think she will do just fine with your support. If she is having trouble eating, it is more a matter of time for her getting used to her disability. 

You may also want to post your story on websites for lovebirds so others can be aware of the potential problems. (Maybe someone else has mentioned this already; I haven't gone through all he preceding posts yet. Just doing a quick check-in). 

Also, I have used the *pipettes* mentioned. One of my docs used it for withdrawing urine samples from a larger specimen jar. I asked him if I could have the used one so I could rnse it out and srerilized it to use for my pigeon rescues, and he gave me a boxful. They cost five or ten cents each, but at a hobby store you will pay fifty cents to a dollar or more for three. They are great for withdrawing Apple Cider Vinegar to add a few drops to a small water container (50 ml) for one pigeon's daily fresh water, and such things. I also used it for squirting food and meds down apigeon's throat (past the tracheal opening at the base of the tongue). Size of pipette may vary a bit from Europe to USA, but just think of a ballpoint pen with a squeeze-bulb where the pocket clip is. The are easy to wash: just squeeze the bulb to empty and fill it a few times with dish detergent water while doing dishes, and rinse a few times with clear water. Disinfection: follow your instincts, if you have a sick bird. 

A word of warning about the pipettes: you can easily squeeze out a large amount of mush or liqud very quickly, and if you don't have the pipette inserted deeply enough so that the food definitely goes into the crop, a struggling bird might regurgitate the food and aspirate it (suck it into his trachea and lungs). I feel that I might have done this a couple of times. Cynthia/Cyro51 recommends not tube feeding a bird if or while it is struggling. 

The pipettes might also be useful in the kitchen, for withdrawing vanilla extract, mini-basting, and such. 

I once mentioned using something such as "crazy glue" (_Sekundenkleber_ or one-second-glue in German), or cyanoacrylate (?), and also mentioned that there was a veterinary version. Also, that in the Vietnam war some medics used it to temporarily close up battlefield wounds. Also, that the solvent is acetone or fingernail polish remover also deadly to humans and of course birds in too great a concentration. I try to always use such stuff in an open, well-ventilated area (with a fan for forced ventilation). 

Incidentally, with my next post (# 500), will be undergoig a sex-change. Can Terry or Pidgey or someone of the powers that be arrange for patriarchs before I post again? (LOL). 

Best of luck, 

Larry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Incidentally, with my next post (# 500), will be undergoig a sex-change.
> *Can Terry or Pidgey or someone of the powers that be arrange for patriarchs before I post again?* (LOL).
> 
> Best of luck,
> ...


  

Your status/title changes automatically.
Each member can only 'control' their own control panel.
Terry & the rest of us moderators are unable to changes the titles that are already in place. 
I would suggest you do as Victor did, include the word 'patriarch' in your avatar.  

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Incidentally, with my next post (# 500), will be undergoig a sex-change. Can Terry or Pidgey or someone of the powers that be arrange for patriarchs before I post again? (LOL).
> 
> Best of luck,
> 
> Larry


Oh, you big chicken!

Well, the bad news is that at your age (and relative health), you're probably looking at pretty-much instantaneous menopause. Fortunately for me, I'm much younger and only had to deal with childbirth.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, you big chicken!
> 
> Well, the bad news is that at your age (and relative health), you're probably looking at pretty-much instantaneous menopause. Fortunately for me, I'm *much younger *and only had to deal with childbirth.
> 
> Pidgey



Pidgey lies...but that's another story!

Yeah, Cindy beat me to the punch. I was going to suggest that you and Victor commiserate! He's got some sort of "problem" being called "Matriarch" too.

What's with you guys, doesn't bother me at all!


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Hey everyone!
So I went back to the vet's on Wednesday morning. I'd been handfeeding Walnut for 2 days, 1.5mL of formula every 6 hours. But she was not succeeding in picking up any seed, even with the deep dish that I provided for her. When she was weighed on Wed. she had gone down 6 grams! I discussed my options with my vet, and he felt that since she had lost weight so rapidly, the best option for us would be to shorten the lower beak to match the top one. She was anesthetized for the procedure and given pain medication for the pain for the following 24 hours, and I left her at the hospital over night so they could monitor her. I brought her home yesterday afternoon, and she's doing GREAT!! As soon as I put her back in her normal cage, she attacked the food dish! I stood over her and just watched her for like 10 minutes, and she's eating! The food was going down! I'm so ecstatic! And her mate Blueberry started cooing like crazy when he saw her!  Thanks again everyone for all your advice! 

Here's a picture of her new beak:


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Glad to hear she is doing so well. The fact that she can eat is the best news, and her mate appreciates the nose (beak) job too!


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Trees Gray said:


> Glad to hear she is doing so well. The fact that she can eat is the best news, and her mate appreciates the nose (beak) job too!


Hahaha!!! It's so funny you should say that! When we brought her home, my sister and I joked about that too, we said that she had just come back from the cosmetic surgeon's after doing a nose job  

Yes it is great news indeed that she's finally eating! I was soo worried about her


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thank you so much for posting an update.  

I'm so glad 'Walnut' is able to eat normally now.  
She's adorable.  

Please do keep us posted on how things are coming along.

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks for posting the update and yes, this is very good news. Please keep us updated.

All the best,

Ron


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Poofybird, the end results are just incredible. They did a great job on her injury and she looks just beautiful!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That is such good news. I've been thinking of her. You did such a good job with her.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Yeah for Poofybird and Walnut. This makes me soooooo happy.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks guys  She just did a big solid poop!!! Haha! Whoever thought I would ever be this excited to see poop?


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Poofybird said:


> Thanks guys  She just did a big solid poop!!! Haha! Whoever thought I would ever be this excited to see poop?


Isn't it odd the things we take for granted?  That is good to hear!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just flew in to see the BIG (uh..."little"(?) NOSE - er - BEAK job!  

That's just the most terrific news, Poofybird! I'm really thrilled!! Your Vet did a great job!  

I bet Walnut is a different bird with her new LOOK!  That's the best new "nose" I've seen in quite awhile!  

Keep us updated!


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Lower beak shortened to match missing upper beak*

Poofybird,

This is fantastic news!

I didn't believe a beak-shortening job was possible, until you posted! Good thing we have vets, who know things we don't (and sometimes vice-versa).

Keep us updated on *WALNUT*, on occasion. (Of course, more often, or however often you wish, is perfectly acceptable also). We dote on our pigeons.

Larry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That is fabulous news, Poofybird! I'm so very glad she is doing well following the "beak job." I rejoice with you that she is able to eat vigorously. And healthy poops are a cause for celebration. Thank you so much for sharing the photo. She really looks quite pretty.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

You're all so wonderful! You helped me keep my sanity during a very stressful time! I will definitely be sticking around!

I love to dote on my birds too


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i'm just curious how small these birds are??
it sounds like your whole family (walnut and family included, of course) is so happy!! what do they give her for pain?? i cant believe it got chomped off to begin with?? you would think the beak is too hard for that!! she is such a lovely bird, please post more pics as the healing comes about from time to time, i'm curious how it will turn out. i wonder if the beak will try to grow as people have mentioned on here. 
she really is quite the looker!! with those big eyes, she probably felt all self-concious with the nose at first, but now that it's fixed she's showing it off to her hubby!! better give them some privacy, i see some lovin' about to go down!!


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

xxmoxiexx said:


> i'm just curious how small these birds are??
> it sounds like your whole family (walnut and family included, of course) is so happy!! what do they give her for pain?? i cant believe it got chomped off to begin with?? you would think the beak is too hard for that!! she is such a lovely bird, please post more pics as the healing comes about from time to time, i'm curious how it will turn out. i wonder if the beak will try to grow as people have mentioned on here.
> she really is quite the looker!! with those big eyes, she probably felt all self-concious with the nose at first, but now that it's fixed she's showing it off to her hubby!! better give them some privacy, i see some lovin' about to go down!!


Hi 

These birds are really quite small, average weight is about 24-35g. They're about the size of a sparrow, but with a longer tail.

I have not given her anything for pain, she was given pain medication over the course of 2 days while at the vet's, and he assured me that she didn't need it anymore. She seems to be quite active now, and doesn't appear to be in pain, so I hope she's not. Is there any non-medicinal home remedies you guys can recommend for pain?

Yes, unfortunately her top bill did get totally chomped off  Lovebird's jaws and beaks are very strong, they chew through wood very easily. They could have done a lot more damage, Thank goodness I got to them before the worst happened.

My vet was pretty convinced that the top bill more than likely won't grow back, because there was too much damage and the tissue started dying. The lower bill however may grow, and so we'll need to regularly maintain it.

She is beautiful, isn't she? I will be sure to keep you posted, and post more photos as her recovery continues


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is amazing. She looks great and the best news is she can eat again.
Great job mr. vet.

Reti


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

*Update*

Ok, so my little dove seems to have taken a turn for the worst  . The day I brought her home from the vet's, which was Thurs., she was eating very well, and seemed to be active again and her poop was very normal. But then over the weekend she was very lethargic, and spent all weekend sitting in the corner, puffed up. I had been monitoring her poop very closely, and sometimes it was solid and perfect, but then it would go back to being diarrhea with very little solid matter. And also the urine part is a very bright yellow, rather than clear. Also when I let them out for flight time, she would come out for like 5 mins, and then immediately go back inside the cage and go to sleep again  So right now I'm just waiting for my vet to open, so I can call in and see what he suggests.. just wanted to update you guys on how she's doing.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Appreciate the update. I'm so sorry to hear your little dove isn't doing well.

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest isolating her so she can rest quietly. Do you have her on supplement heat, e.g., have a towel lined heating pad, set on low, under her or place her under a low wattage lamp. If not, this would be good to do while waiting for the vet's office to open.

From what I've read, the yellow in the droppings could *possibly* indicate internal canker, liver or kidney disorders. 
These are only thoughts, not a diagnosis.

Is she drinking on her own. If not, you might want to take an eye dropper & administer a *drop or two at a time *of electrolytes (cup of room temperature water with a pinch each of salt & sugar. Just a pinch.) along side her beak. 
She's got to remain hydrated. 

Please do let us know what the vet has to say.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Yes I do have a heating pad set up, and she is seperated from others.

I just spoke with the doctor and he told me to bring her back in. He is worried that the bone may have gotten an infection.. will keep you posted.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Poofybird said:


> *Yes I do have a heating pad set up, and she is seperated from others.*
> 
> I just spoke with the doctor and he told me to bring her back in. He is worried that the bone may have gotten an infection.. will keep you posted.


 

Yes, please do keep us posted. 

Cindy


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*A supposed relapse*

Hello Pooffybird,

Keep a sample of the poops with the yellow coloring, if possible. I scraped samples of Wieteke's with a clean knife, and put it into a baggie so it wouldn't dry out. It did change the shape, though, so I kept other samples (which dried but maintained shape). *Pidgy* or others may say all of this is unnecessary for dong a microscopic fecal float, or whatever. I don't know if this is useful for vets. It is just a suggestion on my part. Perhaps others can comment. I find it useful though when I have a sick bird (*Wieteke*), so I can see changes for myself, since I don't have a microscope, lab equipment, and the money to use a vet very often. 

The yellow _might_ be artificial coloring from a medicine. We gave Wieteke Gambakoczid (German brand) against coccidiosis, and it had a bright orange coloring which looked very nice mixed in with olive green poop. It helped us to be able to tell that he was getting the medicine (which had been added to his food and adhered to the seeds with some oil) into his system. That's probably not the case in this instance, though.

Speaking for myself, and not for birds or pigeons, although it might be true for them also:

I have been throgh a number of surgeries, the majority of them for nasal polyps. Usually after coming out of surgery I may be tired, but the anesthesia has let me breathe and rest wonderfully. Oftentimes the day of surgery and the next day I will be "excited." Perhaps on a high, from the anesthesia and tranquilizers. Several times I have been very talkative. Two years ago the surgical team brought me out of anesthesia while I was still on the table. The packing and bandages were minimal. I felt great, wonderful! Better than I had in several years! Congratulated the doctor, told him I felt as if I could walk out of the hospital and go directly home. Assured him that of course I wouldn't, but that was how good I felt (in spite of the bandage, I could breathe easily through both nostrils which were previously somewhat blocked). The next day, and the day after, I felt a lot more tired, and rested and slept a lot. 

The point is, after feeling so bad, your pigeon may have been very excited to be able to eat again without frustration and pain. It sounds like you have a great vet, and some great anesthesia available for your bird. But surgery always leaves residues or poisons in the body which the blood circulatory system and the lymph circulatory system must filter out and remove from the body.

Going through surgery is a bit like going through a boxing match (okay, maybe it isn't, I won't argue too strongly one way or the other), but the body taks some punishment which it may not feel all the results of right away. A time of rest and recuperation must follow. To avoid a serious relapse.

Best wishes for you and your pidge.

Larry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear she's taken a turn for the worse. I do hope your vet will be able to help her. Is it possible she has an infection from the lovebird bite?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I'm so sorry to hear she's taken a turn for the worse. I do hope your vet will be able to help her. Is it possible she has an infection from the lovebird bite?


That is my thought also. I hope your vet figures it out and probably will give her an antibiotic.
Let us know, please.

Reti


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2007)

I wonder if this means the lovebird may have an infection.


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## Poofybird (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi everyone  

No, my lovebird does not have any kind of infection. All my birds are regularly taken to the vet's for wellness checks and they're all very healthy. Any open wound can easily be succeptible to a bacterial infection if not covered, I would think. But I'm not sure.

I did take her back to the vet's this morning, and he actually had good news to give me  She has gained 3 grams! So we know that food is going down anyway. He said the upper beak looked red and inflamed and he does suspect an infection. They kept her to administer antibiotics, and also give her some fluids and food to get her energy back up. He said the fact that she has gained weight is very promising, and that she's going to be fine  Oh, he's also running tests on her poop and blood to make sure nothing else is going on internally. 

I think what Larry said about recouperating from a surgery makes a lot of sense. She was on a bit of a high that first day when I brought her home, and then the next day she appeared very weak and lethargic. I think she just really needs time to recouperate.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Shirin


I have worried about her since your last post and I am very happy about the report from your vet visit.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*GREAT NEWS, SHIRIN!!*

Continuing to send HEALING THOUGHTS!! I know you will keep us updated!!

Thanks, Larry, for the info...I didn't realize...so, THAT'S WHY I felt so great just after having the kids! Until the second day...


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for the update. I'm glad she's gained weight and the vet is keeping her for a little while to make sure she's okay.

I just wanted to add that I'm sure any bite can cause a bacterial infection. Our birds are healthy and we take good care of them, too, but every time our lovebird bites my husband the bite area gets red and hurts for days.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Any bite wound can become infected, either from (normal) bacteria in the mouth of the biter or from normal bacteria on the outside of the skin gaining entry into the tissues through the bite/break in the skin. Eg in people, we have staph aureus hanging out on our skin all the time, but when it gains entry into the tissues, it can cause serious skin infections (cellulitis, etc)
Sabina


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for the happy update, I'm glad she is better.


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