# Sick pigeon - twisted neck



## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

Hello All

I am returning back to this forum after 2 years...last time was in 2013 and it was a cute dove that could not stand up on its feet and we eventually lost it after a week of trying all suggestions...

This time, its a pigeon just came to our place with its neck twisting to its left and this thread looks apt for my case, ...here are the 2 videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-bGkIGz9c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsB6ZCRtEs

I am in Delhi, India. I took it to a local government vet. His assistant didn't find any injury/trauma and the vet simply advised to leave the bird with them and said that its hard to revive the bird from this condition...

I didn't feel the bird was in good hands and brought it back..but, this time, I don't want to let it go as the neck twisting is not constant. At times, the bird just sits very normally with head upright, but, at times it twists its neck to almost upside down...the bird also looks strong for its size...uploading some pics...

https://picasaweb.google.com/103886...&authkey=Gv1sRgCLiMnILp1P2Pfg&feat=directlink

for food, I fed it a few pigeon seeds manually with some drops of water...the vet just gave it some injection orally...

need advise from here to be able to save it...and what food to give as its not eating the pigeon seeds that I put in the cage as it can't bend its neck to peck from the bowl...

Thanks in advance


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Hi Planty , 
Twisting of neck could be because of paratyphoid (salmonella) which is uncommon and due to PMV which is common. 
How do you know it is paratyphoid and not PMV? Did you get any lab tests done for it to confirm from vet? 

www.pigeonmania.com/salmonella-paratyphoid-in-pigeons/

If paratyphoid, it needs to be treated with antibiotics soon. 
If PMV no medicines required, just the proper care i.e feed, water and hygiene and the healthy birds recover from it.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

How are you feeding him? Is he trying to eat on his own? 
If not which is most likely, you need to hand feed /force feed him defrosted frozen green peas after being thawed under water water to make it to normal temperature.


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Hi Kiddy

Thanks for your prompt response...

I force fed pigeon with some pigeon seeds last night since it was probably scared...but it has pecked into the seeds bowl a few times since morning, so, it has the desire to eat...

Coming to the problem, its the vet who, after examining the bird, said that its a viral thing thats causing the problem and not an injury. He didn't tell me the exact problem though and seemed disinterested.

So, isn't there any stark difference in the symptoms that could help me understand if its paratyphoid or PMV? Maybe, if you can check this video from today and see if you can single out the problem and advise the possible treatment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gus-40CUAQ

Also, what else can I give it other than pigeon seeds and green peas?

Thanks again....

anticipating support from more members in european timezone to not lose time...


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

My pleasure  
Actually you haven't posted a new thread and this makes some members to not see the thread as it is ongoing already so next time onwards always post your concern in a new thread. This time I hope moderators should part it so more members could see and respond. 
Also when you posted the problem in thread of paratyphoid it was obvious to confuse with that as one has to ask about is it paratyphoid or PMV because both may have a symptom of neck twist. 
Now coming to vet, I don't see any avian vets here in India so was he an avian vet or general vet? In which government hospital you visited him, just wanting to ask as do you know if he has any experience with birds? 

If I consider vet's diagnosis he said is a viral problem, it is PMV (Para moxidectin virus) in which common symptom is neck twist while paratyphoid is a bacterial infection caused by salmonella in which neck twist is rare. So my inclination is towards your bird has PMV. 

Now as there are no tests done for droppings, have you gone through the link I pasted for paratyphoid in which they have distinguished paratyphoid poop from PMV poop? 

I am pasting the same paragraph from that link :

"Diarrhea is seen in pigeons of all ages. The intestinal type of infection usually produces a loose watery, green, voluminous and bed smelling dropping. It is important to distinguish it from the paramyxo dropping which is a watery splash with very little solid feces in the middle (looking like a worm in a splash of water). The droppings from paramyxo do not have any white (urates) from the kidney as paramyxo affects the kidney. In the salmonella droppings the urates (white matter) are usually visible, often greenish – yellow. The bird becomes light weight and wastes away."

So now pls identify the poop as per these guidelines and let us know. 

Also it is very important to feed the bird as he should have strength to fight the virus, if not fed and watered he will die. It will be hard for him to feed on his own because of neck twisting and he will not get enough nutrition and become weak and will loose immunity to fight with virus. 

Buy frozen peas, take out 35-40, thaw under hot water to make them to normal temperature and feed him one by one. If you are finding it difficult to feed as he is a feral pigeon, wrap him in a towel and put him on your lap and feed one by one pea in mouth. Peas are easy to digest and you may find them easily on any food store 200 grams for Rps 45 as I remember. You can pour down small seeds too in his mouth but they will take time to be fed. I will paste few links to feeding soon as well.

If it has PMV, it will recover on his own with proper feeding, watering and hygiene. Also dip his beak in water bowl and allow him to drink if he isn't drinking on his own as again it will be hard for him because of neck twist. 

Now check the poop and update us pls.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

This process usually we tell everyone on hand /force feeding :

If you need to feed peas/corns to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed. Start with about 30 defrosted and warmed peas. Warm, not hot. Do that maybe 3 times a day, but let the crop empty between times.
Remember frozen defrosted peas/corns should be thawed under hot water to make them warm/normal from in and outside both. Never give hot/cold stuff to any bird. 

These video link will help you further to understand the process on how to do it(tho this is not in lap but you can get an idea, how to open his beak. If you put him in lap, it will be more easy(if he flaps much you can wrap him in towel to feed)). In start you will see small seeds being fed and in later part, the pigeon is being fed on peanuts. Pea/corns will be fed in the very same way as peanuts. 

https://youtu.be/9ZqI8idx-SQ

Hope it helps.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

You may also want to check for other symptoms of PMV. Not all are shown by every pigeon with PMV, but there are usually a few at various stages of the virus.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f107/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12250.html


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Hi Kiddy again

Thanks for your detailed response. Let me try to answer your queries one by one:

1. Eating: I semi-boiled around 30 fresh green peas and pigeon ate all of them itself (and some from my hand)...it has become familiar with me now and is not getting scared when I move my hands close to him. It also drank some water on its own, so, didn't force feed today at all. Here's a video of him eating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f70TEhkzumc

2. Rotating: The bird gets restless every 30-60 minutes and starts to rotate anti-clockwise (in the same direction where its neck is twisted). Sometimes, its standing erect with the neck totally upside down but contrary to this, sometimes its resting with its neck just like any normal pigeon.

3. Vet: Vet was a general vet and not avian in a hospital run by an NGO, mainly for stray cows, dogs and cats. There is a bird hospital on the other side of town, but, I couldn't take it there as I was working from home and couldn't take an off. I can try that tomorrow, depending on your inputs.

4. Diet: How many times a day should I feed him? Can I give him corn removed from a sweet/soft cob? I have seen pigeons feeding on dry and hard cord on the roadsides where people feed them. Anything else that can give him more energy?

5. Poop: Poop was fairly normal, little soliid and was white + green. Don't have pics as the bird is walking over it. Doesn't look like diarrhea. Will try to post some pics soon.

6. Any medicines based on the above input?

Just want to save it at all costs.

Thanks again


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

hard to say if its sallmonella or pmv....i dont know if pmv has reached india..
anyway he needs to be fed...so can you get matar from the market?? feed him 40 matar in each meal 3 times a day...make sure his crop empties before you feed another meal..
you can easily get cipcal 500 tablets at medical store...cute 1 tablet into 8 pieces and give 1 piece once a week and ask gov vet for vimeral supplement, he should have it for cattle...!!
experienced members will shorty be here!!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Planty, medicines can't be given until we aren't sure what he has, paratyphoid or PMV. And so I have been asking you to go through the symptoms pls. John D has posted a useful link on PMV symptoms, I am copying and pasting the symptoms content here :

"SYMPTOMS:

Diarrhoea is often the first symptom, but feral pigeons will not often come to the attention of a rescuer until the nervous signs appear. Not all symptoms will be present at the same time. All symptoms are aggravated by excitement.

The most common symptoms seen by the rescuer will be:
Thin broken solid droppings in a pool of liquid
Fine tremor of eyes or head
Staggering
Somersaulting in flight
Crash landing
Difficulty picking up seed, pecking and missing.
Tossing seed backwards
Twisting neck, head upside down (torticollis, star gazing) - see photo.
Paralysis of legs or wings
Spiralling in flight
Flying backwards
Turning in circles
Having fits
Suddenly dropping off to sleep, head slumped forwards (zonking out!)
Pulling head backwards towards tail."

If poop is better, that's a good sign as he is able to digest food, now look for other symptoms and also from the link for paratyphoid which I posted. Since we can't see and note all the symptoms, you will have to look for them and update us. 
Neck twisting can't distinguish between paratyphoid and PMV because in both neck twisting is almost same, so other symptoms will have to be considered. All the symptoms will not be seen in one bird but few symptoms will suffice if you are sure about them . 

If you visit an avian vet, that will be good but to get paratyphoid poop tested you will have to collect sample for 5-6 days as it is not necessary to reflect salmonella
in one single dropping. If you are able to go tomorrow, let's see what vet's opinion is. That would be helpful. 

This is a good sign, he is eating on his own as well tho you see he is facing problem in having peas, he is dropping peas many times so be sure he should eat around 35 peas for sure. Usually we feed adult pigeons twice a day and rest of the time you can make seed dish available for him in cage so he may try to eat as per his will. 

Idea of giving Calcium and vitamin by Naresh is a good idea, follow Naresh's advice on cipcal and dosage. You can get bird vitamins syrup with minerals available at pet stores, you can buy that and give him in his drinking water. Both the things will strengthen him to fight with his disease. 
Get the water available for him all the time in a bowl but be sure he doesn't get drowned while having fits. 


Naresh, What do you mean by PMV has reached India? 
I would ask for Jass inputs on the same if he hasn't seen any PMV pigeon here .


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

yah i thought pmv was not a problem here, so people dont vaccinate their birds...but recently many thread are showing up with pigeons with pmv in india....i read on a facebook pigeon group, some months ago, that pmv is quickly spreading in delhi...


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

It is not an absolute rule, but pigeons with PMV try to behave as if they are not sick. The main thing I usually see is that they try to be mobile - they have no awareness that they are sick, of course.

Pigeons with the neurological symptoms of Salmonellosis more often 'look sick' and cannot really do too much.

That's what I've seen, anyway.

I think you mentioned earlier, Kiddy, that those symptoms are less common in Salmonellosis? I agree, and I believe veterinary science states that. The most common form of Salmonellosis is the gastro-enteritis form. 

Whatever other causes there may be, PMV is the single most common and wide-spread cause of the symptoms we usually see in neurologically affected birds.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes John you are right and this bird looks very alert even picking food on his own but dropping as well for obvious reasons of neck twist, still he is able to get food into him after few attempts. So I thought it should be PMV. 

Coincidentally another thread posted today with PMV title is showing different symptoms like the bird is very dull and has no will to eat or drink, so could be paratyphoid. Still we can't be very sure until we see the bird and identify symptoms so this is up to original poster how he /she identifies it. Also when there are no test results on hand, nobody can give 100% surety, just assumed based on visible symptoms.


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Hi Kiddy & Nare J

I have been stugling to single out the disease based on poop, but, after all my reading on the web, I can say that the poop is not of PMV, though, lot of other symptoms of PMV are present as below

- Thin broken solid droppings in a pool of liquid - Not in a pool but droppings are scattered, though they seem normal (like what would drop from a pigeon sitting on a tree). Also, it poops as it gets scared when I bring my hand close to it or put it back in the cage after feeding it water. Attached some pics for the poop.
- Fine tremor of eyes or head - Don't think so
Staggering
Somersaulting in flight - it can't fly as its in confinement
Crash landing - can't fly
Difficulty picking up seed, pecking and missing. - YES
Tossing seed backwards - YES
Twisting neck, head upside down (torticollis, star gazing) - see photo. - ABSOLUTELY YES
Paralysis of legs or wings - NO, doesn't seem so
Spiralling in flight - not flying
Flying backwards - not flying
Turning in circles - ABSOLUTELY YES and MANY TIMES IN A DAY
Having fits - Can't say
Suddenly dropping off to sleep, head slumped forwards (zonking out!) - Yes, at times...now, its even sleeping with its head upside down.

Will also upload a video soon.

Do my answers help?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yes, it isn't always 100% sure what the problem is.

A few years back I collected a pigeon from somebody a few miles away who saw it falling on it's face in her garden. I isolated it in a cage with food and water after the usual stabilising things, and it just sat like a statue for a couple of days. Then, it began to twist its neck a little and turn circles. She never did get really bad, but years later she still just goes into a deep sleep while she is standing in the aviary.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

'PMV poops' are quite often the first sign, so a rescued pigeon may have already passed that stage. We still get PMV poops in our aviary, though, as some of our older Ex-PMV birds do have some kidney problem.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

John, yes they recover from PMV but they may face neurological issues afterwards too so they don't seem ready to be released to me when they seem fully recovered even but yes people who don't have proper enclosure will find it difficult to have them life long and so the situation will become difficult for them in wild. Poor birds have to manage anyhow. Thanks on behalf of all those PMV birds you people are taking care of, may we all become like you people, the birds will be much safe then. 

Well then may be it has passed that diarrhea poop stage and recovering? Because it doesn't really seem sick and is alert. 
Planty, based on John's experience and my little knowledge and of course on symptoms it should be a PMV bird and you should do what you are doing. Give him calcium and vitamins also and keep him well fed and watered and he should recover hopefully. 
That's what we can do right now. Also keep a close eye on him, if he changes his behavior like restrict feeding or seems dull etc. write back in detail.


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Thanks John and Kiddy

I just hope she is recovering...though I feel it is a bit low & sleepy since evening (that may be entirely my perception, as pigeons sleep early in the evening)

Here are 2 videos from 5 hours ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnrCNmouGDE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhG8sWQ1t_Q

and here's one from 5 minutes ago (1am)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP4DY94134w

Its sleeping like we do when in a moving car, but, as you can see, the neck is bent to the left and not erect...does that say anything about the problem?

For the calcium, I have already brought one tab 500mg of cipcal...in what medium should I mix that 1/8th tablet - in water or in food?

Also, is it enough to give the green peas and corn alternatively or Should I make some pigeon mix? If pigeon mix, how to make one for a day's diet?

Also, Kiddy, pls tell me the multivitamin supplement that you know is available in India and in what quantities to give to the bird?

The bird hasn't had water or food since evening (around 7 pm, and its 1 am now), so, we used an injection to give it around 1-2 ml water...how many ml water is enough at a time and how many times a day? Also, I read somewhere to add salt in water as it helps in recovery...can I try this?

Will share more updates tomorrow morning...sleeping now...good night

Rgds
Planty


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Check for the symptoms change during day, no birds are active at night, let him sleep peacefully under dim light conditions. 
Give him in his mouth 1/8 of cipcal by opening his beak. 
Peas and corns are sufficient for now. You can mix several grains like wheat, barley, millets (bajra), dried peas and corns, lentils (masoor ki daal), mustard seeds etc. and keep in a container, give him some of it in his feed dish daily. 
I give them concitone.one more I am giving these days with amino acids in it, I will tell you the name in morning when I get up. Quantity is given on that, just few drops in drinking water for one bird. You can calculate the exact amount as per the guidelines on bottle. 
Don't force drink him water now at 1 am, let him sleep pls, he needs rest. 
Thanks and good night.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

When neurological symptoms appear in Salmonella, the disease is already in an advanced stage, the bird is emaciated (sharp chest bone).

Your bird seem to have post-pmv neurological symptoms, that keep manifesting because stress. 

I have a pigeon that someone gave me with neurological symptoms, neck twisting, going in circles. Is like that for several months and perhaps the fact she didn't recover is because other pigeons take advantage of her disability and beat her which causes stress. When I have time, I take this pigeon in a park and let her roam free in grass, as she can't fly (because of the same neurological problem). There she feel so relaxed that the symptoms disappear completely. But everytime when there is a factor of stress, she starts twisting the neck or walking in circles. Otherwise is calm, make sunbaths near windows, sleeps on floor or other higher places.

What I'm trying to say it that these symptoms appear when the bird is stressed, when she dislikes something or want something (water, food etc).

Watching your videos, it seems to me that your pigeon is stressed by the small space she has in cage. Maybe a larger cage would solve the problem or you may leave her free at least for some short periods (if not flying or causing other trouble).


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

From Planty's first post, I think these are not post-PMV but that the bird has active PMV at present.

Nobody actually knows what triggers post-PMV signs. That is, if it is stress we can only guess at what is stressful for any specific pigeon. 

I have a pair who normally live in my apartment and have a lot of space, sun and fresh air on the balcony if they want, and a big cage which is always open for them to roost. Sometimes one or both shows neurological signs, although nothing changes in their environment. But, both are far better having been removed from the aviary and all the other pigeons.

The virus can and often does cause permanent effects on the 'wiring' of the nervous system anyway.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

planty said:


> Hi Kiddy
> 
> Thanks for your prompt response...
> 
> ...


Ya google it, samonella is a bacteria and should exibit other signs like bad poop, or smelly poop, wing boils and general illness and slow blink rate, not feeling well, puffed up. 

PMV the bird may appear normal but for the twisted head, so my money on pmv. It IS a virus and will run its course, give the bird a DEEP bowl of food and allow it to try to pick up the seeds. Give SHALLOW bowl of water so it does not drown and FEED it by hand twice a day 30 to 40 peas. U can even feed it dry peas and corn as long as it gets water and you can help do this by gently uprighting its head and dipping the beak in water so it can take a drink, do this 3 to 4 times a day for water.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

A normal racer drinks about 45 ml a day of water, a feral about half that for size, so you divide it and try to allow the bird to drink, dont syringe and aspirate it. Better to gently dip beak in water and allow him to suck it up. IF u give the frozen peas and corn thawed and warmed, then u wont have to give it water by force just keep water available and he may drink but wont need as much as the veggies have enough in for him. Follow these vids to feed either way...one pea at a time or mouthfuls of seed. Whatever works.

pouring seeds in mouth
feeding peanuts
part 1 and 2

Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhpJMCzbFQ
Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqI8idx-SQ


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I don't know what you're asking about Nare and kiddy but yes PMV is a notable disease here too. Last season PMV spread here in competition season and since birds from different lofts come in contact during competitions, it affected many lofts. Over crowded lofts were wiped off of pigeons. One of my friends lost about 50 pigeons to pmv. Here we do vaccinate healthy birds for PMV half yearly with La-sota.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

thanks jass....i m not sure if it has reached maharastra....once in pet shop i saw many birds with twisted neck, people said, ''yeh kabutar hawa me hai'' what did that mean??
and planty, you have to handfeed him matar [like in cbl videos].....40 matar thrice a day.. and then keep his beak [below nostril] in small water bowl...and see if he drinks...!! he needs water immediately


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Jass SamOplay said:


> I don't know what you're asking about Nare and kiddy but yes PMV is a notable disease here too. Last season PMV spread here in competition season and since birds from different lofts come in contact during competitions, it affected many lofts. Over crowded lofts were wiped off of pigeons. One of my friends lost about 50 pigeons to pmv. Here we do vaccinate healthy birds for PMV half yearly with La-sota.


I messaged you Jass when Naresh said I don't know if PMV reached India!!!! Lol. Well thanks for the reply


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

That pigeon has a pmv virus and anything that stresses it will make its twisting worse. I do not agree with the video of just throwing all kinds of seeds in the pigeons mouth. This bird needs support feeding for it is having trouble getting food. You need to hand feed it seeds like peas and corn and larger items so that they won't get stuck in the airway on the back of the tongue. With a pigeon in this condition it is very easy to aspirate this bird the way that video was presented. If it were my bird I would put it in a playpen with a secure top so that it has room to exercise its wings a bit. I would take it out of that cage and get a more safe environment for it to get well in. The playpens have mesh material on the sides and plenty of room for the birds to twist around in with soft material on the bottom of it like towels or something like that for softness and places to lay its body in comfort. If the pigeon is eating on its own and you actually see it eat then leave it eat but if you don't know if it is getting seed then every four hours feed it seeds one at a time and let it swallow them. Maybe since it is every four or so hours feed it about 15 hard peas, 15 hard corn and assorted other large pieces that are round and can go down without getting stuck in the airway. This bird after eating needs to drink so take a dropper and outline its outter beak with water and leave it suck up itself. It will drink the water and you will see this by its beak and throat movements. Do one dropper at a time and I suggest at each feeding about four droppers. You will learn to judge when it has enough for the bird will shake its head usually but sometimes no. The pigeon needs privacy and peace and I would throw a large light sheet or blanket light over half of the playpen for some darkness. I will try to bring up so old pictures of mine for you to see what I am talking about. You want to help this bird then it will take effort and in time it will improve and eat on its own but might still have some twisting for it takes time with this virus to get completely well. If you really want to help it then do it the right way. With that kind of confinement the bird is in torture. Put it on a schedule of feeding and allow yourself about one hour. 8am then again at 1pm then again at about 5 or 6pm and then put it to bed. In time it will be eating on its own and it will take about 4 to 5 weeks to act almost normal again. Picture coming. Do this and you will help this bird and I agree this is post pmv virus and you need to support feeding it for it to get strong and well. It takes time and effort and money to get the proper environment for it to feel secure and safe for that is the beginning of its wellness. Picture coming.. Put the bird on your lap with a light towel wrapped around it in order to secure it and open its beak gently and put seed into it over the tongue towards the back of the throat and it will swallow the seed. Then praise it and do it again and you will become a expert at this---take your time and pretend that you are Radha for she was a gentle soul who thought everything was backwards especially in her court session be like her.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

This is a old picture of the play pen and get someone to measure the top of it and get a secure wood piece on top of it that is larger then the play pen so that it won't fall into the play pen and secure it with maybe bricks or something. this pigeon as it gets well will fly. I only had a towel on mine for the birdie could not fly at that time. Those latice pieces of 4x8 boards that someone could cut to size would be fine so that it could see out the top of it. If there are predators outside then bring that playpen inside for predators could chew through the mesh and kill the bird. That's what I would do if you have access in your country to something like this. The way you have that bird in that cage to me is pure torture and hard to look at..

http://[URL=http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/kaytee63/media/Loft%20and%20Fly%20Pen%20038_zpsue1i6iuc.jpg.html]







[/URL]


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks a lot for lots of inputs to save the bird. 
C. hert, that's a good enclosure for bird but I don't see such fly pens in India. The best which can be done for this pigeon is letting him out in room as the poster has got no aviary having no pigeons and their experience but I see the intentions and efforts to save this bird and so hopefully he will recover. 

Planty, can you pls update us on how bird is doing.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Kiddy Well then this well meaning person needs to think out of the box to get that pigeon more room for comfort and exercise and stress free. Whatever she decides she can use the piece again. Maybe a old kitchen cabinet or something with hard wire across having a door to it. Does she have access to any friends who are good at building or repairing for she could have a cage made or maybe a relative or friend can help her with constructing something more adequate for the needs of this pigeon. This pigeon will get well with proper care and time but it takes time this type of virus for it to get strong and heal. It's almost there because pretty soon it will be eating properly on its own. If she does this care right she will only have to spend about a week or two with the support feeding and then it will eat and drink itself properly because the twisting of the neck will be less and less. Here is another picture of a built cage out of scrape lumber and hard wire. Picture coming..I am sure she can think of something more pigeon friendly for it to get well with peace and privacy.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Since I am wide awake and cannot sleep because I check on my own very very sick pigeon. I am trying to think out of the box to get this pigeon of Plantys more room to stretch and exercise a bit and be more comfortable. I am thinking of a large cardboard box hooked up someway to that cage that the pigeon is in where it would be real secure and safe as well. The pigeon would have privacy and comfort inside the cardboard box and she could feed it in the cage area as it begins to eat on its own. Maybe a one person tent or something or even pieces of furniture forming a box like area with some kind of roof over it and maybe inside near a window... I hope our Planty comes up with some better ideas for it to have more room and comfort as it is getting well under her care. Just ideas here to get her smart brain thinking. lol Goodnight good people.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Your ideas are good C.hert  
Let's see what can Planty do and what benefits the bird. 
Hope your bird recovers soon.


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

Hello C. Hert, AndreiS, Kiddy et al

I thank you for coming in for the rescue...I remember having interacted with C. Hert for a week when I took in a sick dove back in 2013 (I was in dubai then and lost this bird after a week of struggle). She had something like newcastle, and wasn't able to stand up on its feet, it was just dragging itself...

I am just more hopeful this time, since, the pigeon can at least stand on its feet. I completely hear you (and Kiddy & AndreiS) about giving it more space...and I actually tried it this morning; I let it out in the same room for about 10 min...but in a minute after letting it out, the pigeon started behaving really strangely, trying to go under the couch, stargazing and looking to be stressed. The only reason I could guess this happened is that the bird had no familiarity with the surroundings, and when it could not find where to go or what to do, it just started getting nervous, to an extent that when I put it back into its cage, it didn't eat or drink like yesterday...so, I had to forcefeed her...but, things changed during the day, positively...

For her 2nd and 3rd meals, we simply put peas and corn (about 40 each time) and the bird pecked every single piece...and even drank water from the bowl herself a few times. We gave her fresh peas and corn partially boiled in water...

It also rested the whole day with the neck twist not more than 20-40 degrees along the median, though it did stargaze 4-5 times (maybe thats when it felt that the cage was small).

Hence, I do understand and accept that the cage is a bit small for the bird, but, the bird at least sees it like its home. However, I have arranged an airconditioner carton with a relative and will get it tomorrow morning and will then move the pigeon into that.

I also somewhat agree to AndreiS in terms of stress. When I took out my last dove to a park, she showed signs of recovery, as it was closer to its daily habitat. So, I also plan to take our pigeon out to the park sometime tomorrow...would still like to have tips from C. Hert on how to make the pigeon exercise and get to normalcy faster...I would also like to understand if its safe for the bird to try to fly if I take her in the open, or could she hurt herself if its able to fly a bit and then fall down?

In short, I can say that today was better than yesterday and yesterday was better than day before, when we took the bird in. Rest seems to be key in her recovery, accompanied by food/water. Kiddy, thanks to you for supporting me the way you did...

I will post more updates tomorrow...

God Bless all you nice humans and hope this cute little baby passes the bad times...


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Also, going through other links on the web, I found this about the poop on

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/pigeonandloft/ask-vet-theme-questions-paratyphoid

The droppings from paramyxo do not have any white (urates) from the kidney as paramyxo affects the kidney. In the salmonella droppings the urates (white matter) are usually visible, often greenish – yellow. The bird becomes light weight and wastes away.

Though, many of the symptoms of my pigeon hint towards PMV (like circling, neck twisting etc.), but, if I go by the above statement with regards to poop only, it hints more towards the salmonella thing. I can confirm that there is no diarrhea, except it pooped watery faeces in the morning when I let it out and then while I was trying to catch her to put her back in the cage. Such watery poop only happened this morning in the last 3 days. Attached images (first 2 pics) of the poop from the morning when I let it out.

The poop throughout the day has been solid (3rd image), and a mix of green+white.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The droppings without urates are manifesting in PMV only in the six weeks when the virus is active. Afterward, the droppings may return to normal or remain permanently without urates, if the kidney have been damaged by virus. Often, the digestion after PMV remain disturbed for long periods. 

So the fact the droppings have urates doesn't necessary mean is salmonella. After the paramixovirus is gone, the neurological symptoms usually remains, with intensity and occurence varrying from bird to bird.

If your bird had salmonella, the droppings would been more aqueous and greenish. Yet, the droppings of your bird show not a good digestion, as the color must be dark kaki, looking almost black. If possible, buy and put in water some probiotics. They help the bird's digestion enormously.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

That I already posted you yesterday, probably you didn't go through. Salmonella poop is not solid, salmonella pigeons seem very sick as well. 
John told in his post that PMV poop is usually the first sign and when you got him probably he passed that stage and so it started becoming normal. 

The third pic which you posted which he pooped through out the day will be considered as good sign, tho the poops may vary depending upon what he is being fed and how much. 
Doesn't look to me like Salmonella yet.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I hope someone is up to reply. 
Planty messaged me that his pigeon is not able to stand since 20 minutes although he is alert and his eyes are bright. He is kept in a large cardboard box what Planty could arrange. He has been fed and watered and now supplied with calcium too. His poop is normal tho he isn't willing to eat since morning and so hand fed. 
What does this all sound, getting worse for a PMV pigeon or really a paratyphoid case or we are missing something? 
I hope someone experienced should chime in. I have asked to give him calcium, vitamin and mineral water, now what else. 
I have usually seen PMV pigeons recovering with supportive care on this forum but why he is worse in yesterday's comparison. Till yesterday he would fall 4-5 times a day but now he is not able to stand since long.
What can cause this all,any advice?
I hope Planty will update us more, I just wrote what I knew because he wasn't able to post being busy in his pigeon's care.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh very good update received, he stood up. in approximately 1.5 hours I think when I received a message he is able to stand and now he is behaving normally. I was really worried the time I posted here but thankfully he is fine now. Quite relaxed.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I entered Planty's youtube account and found a video he posted today, with the pigeon. Apparently, it was just a worse episode of the post-pmv neuronal symptoms.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Seeing his yesterday's condition I don't think it is post pmv condition rather active pmv but I don't debate on it as I know I am least experienced here which I admit.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Plant's original post said this:



> This time, its a pigeon just came to our place with its neck twisting to its left


That would suggest that Planty only has it a few days, so could be active PMV.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes John that makes me think the same. Planty got him on the very same day he posted here. If it was post PMV how did it survive in active PMV without human intervention and supportive care. He would have starved and died. May be some exceptions and he was in someone else's care but less likely because he wasn't in a condition to be released so why someone would release him to die who took care of him in active PMV?
Many questions strike my mind and the behavior he showed yesterday, it was like he is gonna die, very scary and he wasn't able to stand at all. And after a long time he managed to stand up. All things point out in one direction only that the PMV hasn't passed yet. He is fighting with it. 
But I have no experience with PMV so I can't be stubborn to not understand other's views, here people have seen PMV closely. I just want the bird recovers from whatever he has either active or post. 
I asked Planty today too, how is the bird as he isn't able to post here, may be busy. So he replied the bird is better today but the poop is watery but he is trying to pick seeds on his own and ate some as well while yesterday he didn't will to take anything so seems better than yesterday. Probably a good sign if he does go bad like yesterday. seemed a bit relaxing update.


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Hello all

Sorry for not posting last 2 days...though I have been helped by Kiddy via PM.
Also, I shifted him to a bigger open carton, 2 ft X 2 ft

The bird was stable last 2 days in the sense that 
- he would stand all day & night with the neck twisted a bit
- it had to be handfed peas but would eat wheat & barley itself and in very good quantities...
- it would bend down and stargaze only when I would pick it up for giving it a homeopathic medicine (Argenitum Nit) or for water (as it was not sipping water at all). This stargazing would happen only 5-6 times a day for 10-15 minutes after I would put it back in its box.

But, since morning (last 12 hours), he's been mostly been stargazing with its body bent forwards...and, for the past 2 hours, its behaving really weird, rather seems very anxious...rotating continuously and trying to fly as well.

Here's a video from 1 hour ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeMfwdGeaa4

I have been mixing vitamin drops in its water for past 2 days, and gave it salted water 2-3 times...its not taking more than 15 ml water a day. I go to office, so, nobody else at my home is able to handfeed the bird. We are putting boiled green peas to compensate for water during the day, but, it doesn't eat peas itself, but, as soon as we put the grains, it just finishes them all...

Urgent support required to understand where I am and where we are headed, and what I should do to save it. I have already planned a work from home tomorrow...

I also have bough Conium as I read somewhere that it works for cats, dogs, horses and birds who have neurological disorders...just thinking if I should start giving it...

Thanks again


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am no expert here I can only share with you what I would do for he is going through his worse time. I would take him off the salted water and the Argenitum nit. I would put him on a time table for feeding about three times a day but making sure he has plenty of water even a little at a time during the day. I would also darken that box with a large towel or something threw over the top. (Very nice job with giving him more room). I would also raise up on end of that box with a crumpled up towel on it so that he can perch or just relax on the soft towel instead of being on a flat hard surface that is slippery all the time. He needs just support feeding peas, corn, etc. I would also take him off the barley and somehow replace it with wheat that is in seeds. If he is eating on his own and getting food himself (you need to actually know this for a fact) then just kind of supplement with the food you are feeding him as well making sure he gets plenty of water. My dear soul this pigeon is going through its worse time and I know that you are stressed as well. You are doing the best that you can so put him on a schedule 9--1--6 or whatever and support feed him only----no medicines or natural remedies at this time. Just food and water and a darkened area to keep his stress level and e-coli down. If you could get some pigeon mix from racers or something---dry seeds I would also try to get him to eat that--sunflowers , wheat, millet, oats, corn, safflower, as well as cut up lettuce in small pieces and put that in the feeding area. He needs to be able to get to the feeding area at all times even if you switch the cage around to have the door go into the box at his leisure. I would also put a small deep dish of water down at his leisure and secure the bowl with tape or something to where he could not move it around--maybe a heavy bowl or something. You are doing the best that you can and try very hard for your peace of mind to have kind of like a "no interest" attitude either he will make it or not but you are doing the very best that you are able to do and leave it up to life to decide...This is a long process weeks and you need to keep your mind calm and just have confidence that he just might make it or not but your doing the best you can to save this birdie. I feel so bad for you Planty for I know what you are going through at this time. I would switch him to a pigeon mix and supplement if he is not eating on his own or not able to by feeding larger round seed one at a time so that you know he has something in his crop with water as well. Good luck to you...


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Thanks a lot C. hert for all those sweet words, motivation and the valuable suggestions. Big thanks to Kiddie as well for going out of her way and helping me out in trying to help this pigeon.

Well, I wanted to give him more space, so, I out him of the box for the last 3 hours, and, he did become one active brat...so much so, that it started roaming around the room, though slowly until 11PM. I had to put him back in the box, and, covered it with a cloth to make it sleep. I have also rolled up a towel so it can perch tomorrow morning if possible.

I am working from home tomorrow, so, will ensure that he gets his diet. I have also mixed some electrolyte (human ORS on Vet's suggestion) in his water.

Will keep you guys posted tomorrow.

Will be thankful if anyone else with experience of a PMV pigeons could comment on his condition, and, state of disease, since, the poop is simply normal.

Good day and Good night to all


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Planty, I have a pigeon for the last 3 years who has been losing balance due to neck twisting in times of stress. He stands only in his small carrier where he feels safe. I cannot make him stand on the floor or anywhere else because the stress would make him lose balance and tumble about.
When I got him, he could stand properly, though he was totally emaciated and going in circles. I treated him for 10 days with enrofloxacin to take care of possible salmonellosis. He got better very slowly, but used to stand at the same spot for hours, not even interested in moving about. I began to feel I should do something to make him interested in life, and showed my other pigeons to him. That's when I saw the stress making his neck twist, causing him to tumble about.
The first year was the toughest. Anything new made him stressed. He hated me handling him. Shifting his carrier to a new spot stressed him. Shifting him to a new carrier stressed him. New sounds stressed him. All he would do is sit in his carrier and stare at me as I moved around the house. 
Slowly, he began to warm up to me. Today he lets me pick him up, feed him, take him to places. As long as he is in my hands or in his carrier, he feels safe and he can hold his head straight.
Only for a short period of time (few months) he showed signs of almost complete recovery. This was when he fell in love with another pigeon. He began to walk, even fly with good control. But soon the stress took over and he relapsed. He hasn't walked ever since.
Btw, 'he' is actually a 'she'. Name is Ricky. Today she sits in her carrier all day, with my 3 other pigeons moving around her. She watches them (they have been around for quite some time so she is accustomed to them and not so stressed now, but they do pick at her sometimes), and whenever possible I take her and show her things out the window. She comes along with us on all long trips. What is amazing is her curiosity and zest to live inspite of her handicap. 
I hope your pigeon recovers soon. I would lean towards PMV, since poops are normal most of the time. It will take some time for him to accept his new environment and for the stress levels to go down, so take it slowly. Spend time with him everyday so he learns to trust you. My Ricky took almost a year to finally trust me.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

You mean to say Planty's pigeon should never be released? I know they have neurological symptoms even after recovery but for some time they face it and then they may get fine. Also will depend upon how much damage pmv has caused in his brain? Some pigeons are releasable too? 
I am just thinking about his future because Planty has no other pigeons and it is a rescue so he may not give him a forever home...


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

*Pigeon with twisted neck*

Hi Kunju

Thanks for your detailed response and for sharing your experience.

I admire you for having taken care of Ricky for so long and keeping him alive. Congrats for that.

In my case, I am an avid animal lover, and, love every species and can't see them dying, hence, have this pigeon at my place for 5 days now, and, not at a government hospital.
We also have a stray dog that we adopted 8 years ago and is now part of our family.

However, it stops there. My mother already takes care of the dog full time and cannot take care of another pet, though she's loving the pigeon. This pigeon needs special supportive care, may be for a long time. My wife is scared of animals and can't even touch them. So, I am the only one who can do it, but, I have to go to my office everyday.

So, the situation is a bit tricky, also knowing that 3 cats come to our house daily for milk and just want to kill this pigeon.

I have decided to do my best to save him for another 2-3 weeks, and, will take a call then.

I will go read about the medication you gave to your pigeon. I am also trying my best to not stress the little bird as much as I can. Its been raining here for a week, but, today, its not. So, I am taking the bird to a park today to make her feel nature, and, give her a break from the floor of my house. I will also take your advice on how to not stress it.

Thanks again


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

Hello all again

I don't know if its a good news or bad news to share...

The pigeon was stood with his neck erect most of the time last night, spreading his wings to fly like normal. This morning, I left him in the open, and, he started to walk around the room like normal pigeons, with his phases of stargazing...

I fed him peas & electrolytic water this morning, and more water at noon...I then took him to a park near by...and as soon as I put him on the ground, he walked 20 cm like normal pigeons...and then flew upwards to a height of 10ft, lost his balance a bit, but, then flew a such a high speed like any other normal pigeon that I couldn't even think of catching it...

it flew really high and perfectly through the apartment buildings, and, then vanished...

Don't know what to say, but, I had this gut feeling that he was recoveing since yesterday late evening and behaving more normal than ever...

Hope he is ok...God bless him


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## planty (Feb 9, 2013)

I also wanted to thank every member on this forum for supporting me the way they did, especially Kiddy, for the great support she extended...God bless you all for the great work you are doing...

My family and I do rescue stray dogs a lot, here in India. But, thanks to this forum, I know pigeons and doves more than I knew them 2 years ago...this time, I was able to feed the pigeon more easily, I learnt more about its diet, sleeping patterns etc., though it was hard to hold him than the smaller dove I tried to save 2 years ago...

I would still be waiting to hear from experts here if the flying away of the pigeon was a good sign, or if I made a mistake taking it out in the open before full recovery...though I never expected it to fly...

Thanks to all again...


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Sad to know the update. He wasn't well enough to be released, I never thought of taking him in Park without any enclosure. I even once said to not let him open in house where he could fly away, I remember it was in message. 
They don't know where they are safe, they don't know how they will get well, they have to just fly and as he was able to fly the time he was in Park, he just flew without knowing how is he going to survive further. 
Sick pigeons can't be released until they are well. If you had asked me I would have told you but we have got nothing in hand now except to pray for him. 
I have no doubt you were doing amazing for his care, you were really concerned I know but you didn't know he will fly. So always better to ask someone who know and you have got many people on here and me too was available all the time. 
Well it was destined for him what happened but you have to learn from this, a sick bird is never to be opened until it gets well. 
Hope you will learn from this and will help next in need. 
Thanks for your care and concern about animals.


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

you did a good work planty...many people would have not even paid attention on this bird with twisted neck before he came to ur house. he was a wild bird, so as soon as he realized he is back into his environment, he just flew into it. just remember next time, you should never leave a bird out until they are totally cure. if his neck was not twisting and he was behaving normal, he should be fine, better if he got some place where he could find food and water easily!!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Naresh, he was having worst time fighting with PMV, his neck was twisting badly for long periods and there were only few times when he was behaving all right. You know he wasn't able to drink water on his own and in these 5 days he never drank even after having feed until Planty made him drink so he was completely depending on him and wasn't at all in the condition to be released and his survival seems next to impossible now, but he is gone.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

These birds sometimes are amazing kiddy and he might very well make it but I agree with you he should have never been taken out like that especially being so sick. But Plany was stressed and he did not have no support of help with this bird from his family and his wife did not particularity get along with birds and they had three cats in that household. The bird was not getting exercise and getting weak from that and I believe Planty was doing what he could do at that time. There is a certain amount of hope here especially if it rains for these birds can go for days without food and survive as long as they have a water source. With exercise since I believe this pigeon was Post PMV--virus and just about to come out of it and become more normal so there is hope and I believe that and hope for the birdie..I cannot say the judgement has been good and maybe next time he will check into places more that take of birds even speciality type of birds. Without him that was a dead bird anyway..I believe that it will survive and that's how I believe so have faith young one and according to the Bhagavad Gita when talking about the warrior class we all are dead anyway. Put that hurt blame to hopeful bliss.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

It is not that I am not hopeful c. hert but someone told me here that there are many visitors who come and see the threads so we have to tell what is most probable practically else they may repeat the same thing what has been done wrong so keeping that in mind I now try to see it practically and so wrote the same tho I am more hopeful than my practical knowledge. 
I have no doubt about Planty's care for that pigeon and I have felt his love for that bird and I know he must not be happy when he is gone but sometimes we don't expect things to happen and they happen and this happened with him. I am hoping here that the bird makes it in open but really telling you, seeing his condition closely since last few days it seems next to impossible and it really hurts me that I couldn't do anything. 
It was not at all the time for the bird to be released and so he shouldn't be.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Your absolutely right and I fully agree with you. I was sad too. We were all trying very very hard to bring that birdie to full health and through lack of judgement it just wasn't so.
That bird will make it fine and believe me on this..I hope it rains and the birdie will get some water off branches and grasses and all kinds of things--I hope it rains...


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## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

ohh yah, i forgot he never drank water and ate feed in this 5 days.....hope so again someone with good heart will find him and take care of him.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Hmm.. I pray for him to be safe....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Planty, I think this was one of your first few experiences with pigeons, and one does do mistakes like this being over optimistic (I do them even now). The neck twisting could also have been due to a hit to the head, in which case he will most probably be fine if the concussion has healed. Some people release post PMV pigeons once neck twisting disappears, though it does mean taking a chance with their lives. 

PMV pigeons show an improvement in their symptoms when faced with fight or flight situations, which is why they appear more 'normal' in the days immediately after capture. Maybe in the park he sensed the chance to escape and did just that. Since you said he acted normal for sometime before escape, perhaps he will be alright after all. You did your best within your limited knowledge to help him, and loved him deeply. Lets pray for him.
Where are you located in India?


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