# bad canker with eye scabbed over



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi all,

I just found another pigeon who I presume has canker, and very, very bad canker at that. 

What I'm concerned about is that one of her eyes is completely scabbed over. I assume this damage is permanent? (Or could the eye be intact underneath??) The other eye is fine, and she seems to see fine enough with the one eye to get around.

Her jaw is tight, like it's wired shut, so I have not been able to get a very good look inside, but there's an odor typical of canker (in fact, her entire carrier exudes this odor) and I can see yellow deposits. (Also, one of her feet only has one toe left from string; the other foot is in better shape but still has string wrapped around one toe--I started removing it but she got stressed, so I thought I'd let it be for now. Poor birdy.)

I managed to tube fed her some water with a Spartrix just now (about 10 cc); a minute or so later, some of the water dripped out of her beak when I was handling her. She passed one liquidy dropping with some greenish feces, but that's about all she had in her. She doesn't feel quite emaciated to me, surprisingly. Should I continue with just fluids tonight or start Kaytee?

Any suggestions?

Jennifer


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This poor bird looks in bad shape. I would give just pedialyte or rehydration solution for now, since he doesn't seem emaciated. 
For the visible lesions I brush on some dissolved Spartrix with an eye make up brush in addition to giving the Spatrix by mouth, one tablet a day.
You can also give some Baytril as he might have other infections going on too. 
On the eye I put colloidal silver. It has helped with all the eye infections I had.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, it's always possible that the eye is fine as long as it's protruding enough to show that the orb isn't collapsed. I don't think I'd try to feed Kaytee unless I could get the tube well past the obstruction. You might try mixing the Spartrix with orange juice to give it the acid required to get it to cross the epithelial layer without having to go completely through the system.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Eye isn't collapsed, but there was some pinpoint oozing a bit when I touched her head. 

Reti, I have some 100 ppm silver; I usually use low-potency, but I'm out of it right now (generally I use high-potency externally only, so I think it should be OK here). I managed one drop on the outside of the eye.

Pidgey, what do you mean by "well past the obstruction"? There is a mass around the bottom beak, similar to the other trich bird I have but smaller and more centered, and the tube is going past that. I'm inserting the tube about 3.5" from the tip of the beak. Should I be going further?

7 hours post fluid, there were a couple more greenish droppings. She weighs in at .28 kg.

How long can she go on fluid only? 

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The eye looks like pox, canker and pox often happen at the same time.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Further to the above, lesions towards the front of the beak are more likely to be pox than canker. Last year we consulted an avian vet about a pigeon that had wet (internal ) and dry (external ) pox. This was the advice that he gave:

_There is no effective treatment available for the disease, but sometimes with supportive care a lot of birds survive. Just isolate the bird from others.

Continue to use antibiotics, either Synulox, or Baytril. 

You can use a painkiller – Metacam oral solution, 0.05ml once per day (1 small drop)

Anti-viral medication may help, eg Acyclovir (Zovirax) at 29mg per bird per os 3 x per day for 7 days.

Echinacea may be useful as well to stimulate the immune system (1ml / L drinking water, Use alcohol-free formulation)

Some bird may require supplement feeding if lots of lesions around beak – Can tube feed hand rearing formulation.

The lesions can be cleaned using a diluted Hibiscrub solution. *_* I assume that he meant the external lesions.

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks, Cynthia. Have you ever seen a case where canker invades the eye? I've been told that it can, and several months ago, I picked up a juvenile who presented the same way this bird did (tightened jaw, eye crusted over; she passed overnight).

I don't see lesions, but there was some flat crusting on the outside of her beak that I removed. The left side of inside her beak is red; there's some yellow as far as I can tell on the right.

How much isolation does she need? (Is pox airborne?) She's in her own carrier but near two other birds. I'll move her to the other side of the room when I get home.

I've been tubing fluid (did water with Nekton-S this morning for the amino acids and vits/mins; LRS should arrive tomorrow) with Spartrix (out of OJ, Pidgey--will have to pick some up today). She seems to wheeze a little, and I'm nervous that she might aspirate if I try tubing Kaytee. There's a lot of crusting around the beak. I'll add Baytril to her regimen tonight.

Spartrix in my experience takes a long time to have an effect. I've been tubing her blindly (afraid that if I pry open her beak, it might break). She's got her weight on her side, but I think that's about it.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

jenfer said:


> Pidgey, what do you mean by "well past the obstruction"? There is a mass around the bottom beak, similar to the other trich bird I have but smaller and more centered, and the tube is going past that. I'm inserting the tube about 3.5" from the tip of the beak. Should I be going further?


Oh... it's kinda' hard to tell how bad it is (but it sure looks bad!) from the picture--I was probably assuming that wth a beakful of garbage like that, that the throat could be almost closed off. Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Poor little pigeon...hoping for the best for it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Jenfer,

Trichomonads, the organisms that cause canker can only affect the digestive tract and associated organs. There can be canker of the cloaca and of the navel (this in young birds) Trichomonads are a fragile organism that cannot survive outside this environment...it is even difficult for the organism to survive in the front area of the beak, which is why lesions there are more likely to be pox. Trichomonads can invade the sinuses through the slit at the top of the pigeon's mouth.

Some people claim that they have seen canker of the eye, the feet, etc, but this is pigeon pus resulting from infection. Pigeon pus resembles the nodules produced by the bird in response to trichomonads.

Pox is caused by a virus which is excreted in the pigeons tears, saliva and droppings. It is also in their blood. It has to gain entry through a break in the skin or the mucous membrane in the mouth, often it is spread through breaks in the skin caused by fighting, but can also be spread by mosquitoes and other blood sucking insexts and through shared drinking water and bath water.

The areas most often affected by external pox are the eyelids, the bare skin around the eyes, legs and beak.

As far as I know the lesions on the edge of the beak are still classified as internal pox. Two of my own pigeons have developed pigeon pox recently, but they are mild cases and the infection is self limiting.

Glucose is easily digested and a little can go a long way, so you could add as much as you can to the water that you are giving him, that will maintain his energy levels.

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks again, Cynthia. Another rehabber once told me that canker can invade the brain case. What you say about it being a fragile organism makes sense given that the swab needs to be fresh in order to identify the organism under the microscope.

I'm wondering if she has pox only rather than pox plus canker. The odor coming from her beak is reminiscent of canker to me, though.

I just picked up some sugar (I don't use it, thus didn't have any at home) to add to her water tonight. Do you think it's a good idea to withhold Kaytee at this point? (And will the glucose feed any infection she might have, or will it be OK as long as it's balanced with salt?)

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If you can smell canker then it is probably there as well.

In the abscence of glucose I would use honey rather than sugar. 

I would avoid glucose if the pigeon is suffering from a yeast infection, but where there is no other source of energy it is literally a life saver. If ou can get Kaytee into the pidge, then that would be better as it is more balanced nutritionally.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Correction*

I was reading through the Wildlife Care booklet last night and came across a paragraph on canker. That said that canker could affect the eye orbit. I don't think that observation was based on the author's own experience, but the reference material included a publication about trichomoniasis in pigeons, doves and falcons.

Somewhere else (I think it was in The Pigeon by Wendel Levi) I came across a photo of a pigeon that had mosquito bites on the tender part of the eye. It said that these resembled pox lesions, but were just a reaction to the bites.

Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

On examining her this morning, I am wondering whether it's pox at all, or just canker. That hard, dry nodule on the upper mandible now looks like just a canker mass in color and consistency. Our avian vet had told me that pox only grows on mucus membranes, not on the eye directly. The crusting covers the entire eye in this case, so given what Cynthia just posted, I'm leaning toward a bad canker case. The eye has oozed on and off, and I've been treating topically with colloidal silver. I think I might make an eyebright/goldenseal wash and try that later.

She's had 13 days of Spartrix now, and the beak is still about as hard to open as before. Her digestion seems to have slowed, she regurged some fluid this morning, and I've noticed some poops that suggest a shooting kind of diarrhea. She's already had a full course of Baytril.

If I had Flagyl (which I don't), I'd probably put her on that because of the diarrhea.

Any suggestions, anyone?

Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Try a tetracycline?

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> Try a tetracycline?


I have a handful of Respire tabs (http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=33&SubCategoryID=812&ProductID=3264). Worthwhile? She weighs in at .22 kg now.

Shall I hit her with Albon and Nystatin too?

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, why not? It's kind of a last chance shot, isn't it?

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Yeah, why not?


Because part of me wonders whether being hit with so many drugs at once is just as hard on the body as fighting the disease itself.

Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nystatin isn't absorbed--it stays in the gut and only interferes with fungal growth. Albon is just a sulfa.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

So are sulfas easier on the system than other types of antibiotics?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doxycycline is primarily excreted as an inactive conjugate in the feces and sulfas are primarily eliminated through the kidneys. As such, you're not going to be specifically overloading any particular organ.

Pidgey


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