# Help Needed



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi Everyone,

I would really appreciate advice on a matter.
I have had a pidgey with PMV for over a year, the worst of it was last winter now she only gets nervous fits once in awhile. Her health has been good (other than her having balance issues) until recently. I have been noticing her sneezing and her eyes seem a little watery. I took her to the vet and he listened to her internally and said she could have a bit of something(did not specify) and prescribed Baytril. I know antibiotics are not advised for PMV birds so I am wondering what to do? Should I give her the med. or is there anything natural someone can suggest that might be easier on her? I love this bird very much and strive to give her the best care. I would appreciate it if someone could advise me.

Thanks Vesna


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Vesna,

Sorry to hear your little guy is not feeling his best. I will take a go at this, although there are more experienced people on PMV here, especially cyro51 (Cynthia).

I don't think at this point PMV will be a real concern, in the sense that your bird has gone through this and while he may still be manifesting some symptoms, because of the virus's effect on the CNS, the virus is not active and your bird will not be shedding the virus either.

While the virus is active I as well have read some debate on the merit of giving antibiotics, and to tell you truth I an still not clear on where the majority opinion lies. I will say if they do develop secondary bacterial infections as a result of the active PMV weakening their systems, antibiotic therapy should be employed.

In your case your bird sounds like it does have a bacterial infection and I would start the Baytril ASAP and follow your vets instructions on dosing, I am sure this will clear this infection up and your bird will be well soon.

All the best,

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Vesna said:


> I took her to the vet and he listened to her internally and said she could have a bit of something(did not specify) and prescribed Baytril. I know antibiotics are not advised for PMV birds so I am wondering what to do? Should I give her the med. or is there anything natural someone can suggest that might be easier on her? I love this bird very much and strive to give her the best care. I would appreciate it if someone could advise me.
> Thanks Vesna


Hi Vesna,

I'm surprised the vet would give you such a heavy duty antibiotic without giving you a diagnosis, for all you know she may just have a bit of a cold and/or mild respiratory infection.

You can use Allicidin Complex, or something comporable, it is actually garlic, but the best part of it and/or garlic capsules. It is a wonderful natural antibiotic, as is Reishi, and Neem oil, and all have the benefit of improving the immune system.

I will usually oil the capsule down with a bit of Neem oil and open the beak and put it over and behind the tongue and allow them to swallow.
That way you give them two good natural antibiotics in one. I usually give a garlic soft gel, then later the Allicidn complex, and then a Reishi if I feel it is necessary, all slicked down in Neem. I will also use a drop of colloidal silver from time to time as another antibiotic. These products all build the immune system and act as antibiotics and more.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Vesna,

Antibiotics can aggravate the effect of PMV when the virus is active, beyond that they are like any other pigeon.

When my PMV recovered pigeon Speckie had a respiratory infection the vet advised me to give Baytril and Synulox at the same time. Even though they can appear mild I think that these infections are dangerous, often fatal, to pigeons (Speckie died) so I would give the infection priority over the PMV even if the infection happened when the virus was active.

But that is just my opinion.

Cynthia


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you for your replies. I have been giving her a sliced clove of garlic in her drinking water(sometimes pedialyte, for over a week) and she is still sneezing and eyes are watery. Is there any way to dertermine how severe a cold or infection a bird has? The Vet gave 15mg baytril tablets(disolve in 1ml of water, give 1/2 ml every 12 hours)
I remember last winter when he put her on Baytril she seemed to lose her appetite. She has been eating normally and coos whenever she sees me.
She weighs appoximately 305 grams. 
I have made a follow up appointment for friday morning. Are there any things I should specifically ask or have tested? 

Thanks again Vesna


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Why a Vet ?*



Vesna said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I would really appreciate advice on a matter.
> I have had a pidgey with PMV for over a year, the worst of it was last winter now she only gets nervous fits once in awhile. Her health has been good (other than her having balance issues) until recently. I have been noticing her sneezing and her eyes seem a little watery. I took her to the vet and he listened to her internally and said she could have a bit of something(did not specify) and prescribed Baytril. I know antibiotics are not advised for PMV birds so I am wondering what to do? Should I give her the med. or is there anything natural someone can suggest that might be easier on her? I love this bird very much and strive to give her the best care. I would appreciate it if someone could advise me.
> ...


Hello Vesna,

I am not able to provide any medical advice concerning PMV, for in all my years of having pigeons, I never saw a single case of PMV. There are some real experts here in their ability to treat various illness, so they will provide some additional information. 

My question is simply out of curiosity. If you were not going to follow the advice of the Vet, then why do you pay him or her to provide medical advice ? I mean I ask my wife the same question when she goes and then decides that she's not going to take this pill or do that. It sort of drives me crazy.......


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Vesna,
> 
> I'm surprised the vet would give you such a heavy duty antibiotic without giving you a diagnosis, for all you know she may just have a bit of a cold and/or mild respiratory infection........


 Don't you think that it's possible that Dr. is doing what alot of fanciers do ? Just grab the bottle of antibotics and hope it cures whatever ails the bird !  And if the Vets are now doing this, is it any wonder that super bugs are being raised right before our eyes ?


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello

I understand your point Warren but I am only being cautious with my little bird who has already been through so much with the PMV. I only want to medicate her if absolutely necessary. I nursed another pigeon over the summer and when it appeared to be sick I rushed him to the Vet and was prescribed Baytril. I administered the first dose that evening only to return later and find the poor bird has passed away. Unfortunately these things stay in your mind and that is why I am being careful with my little one.
It is very hard to find good avian care, especially for pigeons. The
Vet I go to has been in business awhile so I hope he knows what he is doing. It is hard because you never seem to get an exact diagnosis. Her care is incredibly important to me and that is why I second guess.

Vesna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I doubt the Baytril killed the bird--it's more likely that the illness had progressed and the antibiotic was given too late, if it would have done anything at all. As to vets being able to diagnose things, that's way the heck and gone tougher than you think, especially when it's an internal infection. It usually means tests and tests cost real money. That's why I have collected a lot of lab equipment to do some of that stuff with so that guessing isn't quite as bad, but it's still guessing. Frankly, it's not that often that your doctor knows what's wrong with you, either, when it's an infectious disease.

With rehabbing, though, it's more often than not the folks that hit the sick birds with just about everything in a shotgun blast that have the highest success rates. Watery eyes and respiratory signs are very much not good in birds, though. Those symptoms can even indicate Chlamydophila which is a major bad one to have, both for the bird AND you as it's one of the true zoonoses (diseases that actually affect more than one species) that'll get pigeons and us.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Vesna
> 
> My question is simply out of curiosity. If you were not going to follow the advice of the Vet, then why do you pay him or her to provide medical advice ? I mean I ask my wife the same question when she goes and then decides that she's not going to take this pill or do that. It sort of drives me crazy.......





SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Don't you think that it's possible that Dr. is doing what alot of fanciers do ? Just grab the bottle of antibotics and hope it cures whatever ails the bird !  And if the Vets are now doing this, is it any wonder that super bugs are being raised right before our eyes ?


Well, is this a case of she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't?


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello

I was just wondering,that disease you suggested Pidgey sounds extremely scary, would my bird be able to contract this without being exposed to other pigeons. She lives in the house the majority of the time and spent some time outdoors in the summer but only in her pen.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, goodness, whoever knows?!? Fortunately, it's one we don't see very often and it's a real toughie to get a positive ID on. It can be very, very bad, though. As antibiotics go, the Tetracycline family is the drug of choice (for Chlamydophila) and Doxycycline has been the most favored of that family. Treatment for that disease is usually continued for 45 days to (hopefully) clear the carrier state. Enrofloxacin (Baytril) will usually clear the visible symptoms but is not known to clear the carrier state.

In fact, the Tetracyclines are often used for respiratory infections. I don't know if that's because they settle real well in respiratory tissues (different antibiotics often take slightly different routes through the body or work better in specific tissues) or if because when respiratory problems occur people are scared enough of Chlamydophila to want to use something that'll get that one.

It is unlikely, by your description, that it could be that but nothing's impossible.

Pidgey


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*How to provide good care ?*

Hey.....I certainly understand the sense of frustration. I am afraid that one might just be best served by asking questions, and not taking everything a Vet or any other Dr. for that matter says, as Gospel. You are correct to do some of your own research I am sure. I just was curious as to what your relationship is with your Vet ? I mean is it for access to testing, is it for like a second opinion ? My last few conversations with a Vet did not go well. The only Vet I will now seriously listen to, is one who owns and cares for racing pigeons. And then realize, they are going to want to sell you books, tapes, special supplements etc. So some Vets simply turn into salespeople for the Pharmacy Industry. I was sort of hoping that you found your experiece with the Vet as the application of good professional care. I was sort of thinking that he has short changed you, in the quality of care provided to you. It certainly did not inspire me to take any of my birds there.....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I can understand that. I don't think that most people grasp the true nature of medical diagnostics. There are far more things that they can get and far more different ways that they can get them than is generally understood, especially by the non-medical mind. There is always an economics of testing as well as one of time--the "owner" of the bird (or animal) may not be willing to pay that much money and/or the bird may not have that much time. So, guesses are made based on THE MOST LIKELY POSSIBILITY TO BE DERIVED FROM A HISTORY OR OTHER CLUES and, more often than not, the widest spectrum medication (the one that'll cover the most possibilities) is considered to be the most expedient choice. When your agenda is to save the patient, all these factors weigh in.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Vesna said:


> I have been giving her a sliced clove of garlic in her drinking water(sometimes pedialyte, for over a week) and she is still sneezing and eyes are watery. Is there any way to dertermine how severe a cold or infection a bird has?


A sliced clove of garlic in the water does not have the same potency, it has been my experience, it is only a preventive dose, and sometimes the birds will not even drink enough of it to help.

For medicinal purposes you can give a heavy dose, each and every day. It is really important when you are dealing with something that you don't know what it is. Given that you have to have an arsenal of goodies to compete with an undiagnosed illness/infection, and cover all the basis. 

I have given Now brand gel caps for years, and not only long term, but short term use shows that it has been very effective. I'm also adding Allicidin, which seems to work differently and even better. It matchess the cells resonance and digests and assimilates well. There is no loss of appetite, unless the bird was already that way from the beginning. The trick was knowing how much to use and how often, once I have determined that, the healing progresses quickly.

I have had some of my birds on Reishi for several months, Garlic, Allicidin, Neem oil and more, they hate seeing me coming, but they look good and have healthy appettites, with the added benefit of having the cleanest livers in town! LOL


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello Treesa,

Can you please tell me where do you purchase these items? Are they the same type that people use? I believe I do have Allicin in the capsule(powder filled) form. Any further help you can give me is greatly appreciated.

Thanks. Vesna


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Vesna said:


> Hello Treesa,
> 
> Can you please tell me where do you purchase these items? Are they the same type that people use? I believe I do have Allicin in the capsule(powder filled) form. Any further help you can give me is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks. Vesna


Hi Vesna,

Treesa may not be back on until morning (Florida time). Yes, these are the human products and many health food and vitamin/nutrition stores carry them. I'm sure Treesa will fill you in when she's back on the board.

Terry


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi Terry,

Thank you for replying. I will look forward to the information tomorrow.

Vesna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vessna, are you currently holding off on Baytril until using alternative approaches? 

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello,

I have not given her the Baytril yet. She is sleeping for the night. I am keeping a close eye on her. She sleeps next to my bed in her pen. I believe I will start treatment in the morning.

Vesna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna, I don't like to just jump in with the meds if I don't have to, and I don't 
know how long you've been noticing the symptoms either which would likely
help to make up my mind whether to start the course of meds. It's always best
for any living thing to have their own immune system do battle and win. But
if this has been going on for a while, perhaps it best to use the medication that
you received. You can always continue w/the alternative approaches after the
meds to pump the pij back up to a robust health, JMO.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vesna, 



Pidgey's mentions of course explained some of the problem which respiritory infections particularly present - one does n ot know if one is seeing a Bacterial problem, a fungal problem, a Chlamidia problem, a Virus ( like a 'Cold would be in people, ) problem, a chemical reaction, airborne particles or airborne irritants allergy problem...or...

And, so, of course, what to do to treat it?

Tetracyclines seem to my menory to be roefered for infections making respiratory symptoms...

Are her Nares damp or grey looking instead of brilliant 'White'?


Too, I think, that our PPMV survivor Birds particularly, need direct out door direct outdoor Sunshine now and then...as well as fresh Greens in their diet.

Now, of course any house Birds, or indoor Birds not free to forrage freely in the wilds, also need these things, and our PPMV Birds usually are not let loose for flying ot wild forraging, so...

Anyway, without enough of these their systems can become weakened, their immune systems cen become weakened, and their Health generally can be compromised to where they may become ill with something or other which otherwise would not have bothered them or got any toe-hold...

You can give her plain, fresh minced raw Garlic too of course, and this is easy.

Mine just peck it with their Seeds...

The famous ACV-Water would be a good thing for yours presently also...


Anyway, as others have mentioned already, the thing with sneezing and watery eyes and so on, or respiratory distress or signs of illness...

This is always of definitely serious concern, and is usualy hard to tell with any certainty just what it is illness-wise, or organism wise, or if it is even from an infection proper.

Secondary infections can easily follow, when a compromised immune system is dealing with irritants or allergies, for that matter...

Dry indoor Winter Heat, particulates and irritants and low LOW humidity attendant to it, like central heat, makes me ill in no time, and always did...I hate it...

Might do the same for some indoor Birds, too...


Good luck...!

She is eating allright? Pooping alright?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Vesna said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have not given her the Baytril yet. She is sleeping for the night. I am keeping a close eye on her. She sleeps next to my bed in her pen. I believe I will start treatment in the morning.
> 
> Vesna



Hi Vesna,

YES, you can use a people Allicidin product, I use one that is vegetable capsule encased.

My Allicidin is from Quantum Nutrition Labs, it is a complex which contains:

90 mg Allicin protein complex
(which yields 27 mcg of stabilized allicin...
in a blend 295 mg ..of bear claw garlic, asparagus, parsley leaf, and stinging Nettle.)

Here is their web address:

http://www.healthline.cc/

The manufacturer/owner approved it for pigeon use for me. 

I use it along with the Now brand:

http://thecatalog.com/1792.html

ACV, apple cider vinegar:

http://www.bragg.com/products/applecidervinegar.html

and probiotics:
http://www.affordablesolaray.com/digestive_probiotics.html


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello Everyone,

I want to thank you again for the posts they are very informative and helpful.
I won't be able to post again until this evening as I must go to work. Just to answer a couple of your questions my bird has been displaying these symptoms for a little over a week. Her poops are the same as always(sort of a greeny muddy colour with streaks of white) They are a little larger than most pigeon poops, always have been but I believe that is because she doesn't get around as well as they do. Her ceres are not bright white but they have never been,they are more of a beige with a little bit of pink.
She has been eating normally and not losing weight( I weigh her everyday) .
I thank you again for your information and I will be back on this evening. 

Vesna


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello everyone,

I have been away so I just wanted to update everyone. I took my bird back to the Vets last Friday. He listened to her chest again and said she sounded better than the last time. I told him I had only given her garlic and garlic capsules in her drinking water. He said I should still give her 5 days worth of the Baytril(instead of ten) to make sure whatever it was does not come back.
She is still eating and drinking fine. I only hear a sneeze once in awhile, usually after she eats or drinks.

I have a question concerning a new pigeon I rescued last week. I found him wandering in the yard, unable to fly. I brought him in and noticed his flight feathers on his one wing were missing. The bird has been eating and drinking fine. The problem I have is he seems to be picking out a lot of feathers(mostly small ones but he has picked out a few tail feathers) Do you think this could be from mites? Could it be overly warm( it's warm inside)? I have put him in front of a mirror in the daytime(seems to enjoy that) but he still picks and removes feathers. I know it takes approximately 6-8 weeks for new flight feathers to grow I just don't want him to be picking them out in the meantime. I do have some Diatomaceous Earth on hand should I sprinkle him with this? Is it a good safe choice? I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter and thanks once again for all your help. 

Vesna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have a bird that came to me something like that. Here's his thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11280

You might want to do something about parasites, though. It's not going to hurt to put the diatomaceous earth (DE) on him but he might need something that can get deeper into the skin.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You could use a topical spray on the bird and the living area, then lightly dust the living area after spraying, drying, and allowing the odors to dissipate. You'll want to always treat the cage regularly while treating the ecto-parasite. Sprays containing Pyrethin are 
pretty effective, but you also want to get any that are blood sucking by using a systemic med such as Moxidectin or Ivomectin. Moxidectin comes in a reasonably priced drop format called SCAT from the Pigeon Supply House link
in the Resource Section. They are both (Ivomectin and Moxidectin) from the same family of medications.

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you both for responding. I will sprinkle him in the morning and look to purchase the other products. I hope that will stop the feather picking, before he picks them all. Pidgey, Winston was lucky to have found you.

Vesna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Diatomaceous Earth basically shreds the insect apart, I have read that it is not
good to inhale for pigeons, that would be my only concern. Whatever you choose, you can cut the toe end of a sock off and use it for a hood while dusting or spraying.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I remember reading about one person who used it mixed in their feed to keep them wormed. I've got some but I don't use it for that.

Pidgey


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thanks for telling me, I had no idea. I do not want to apply anything that could hurt the little guy. With the holidays here it may be tough gettting my hands on something else. I would have to order from the pigeon supply house (Foy's) not sure how long it would take to arrive here. Any other ideas in the meantime?(until after Christmas) Anything I could get my hands on locally?(Pet Smart?)

Vesna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think fp is suggesting a topical spray like this one by Four Paws:

http://www.mybirdstore.com/Grooming_Supplies-Four_Paws_Mite_Lice_Bird_Cage_Spray_1.html

It is pyrethrin-based, which is supposed to be the most gentle of that kind of product. I get it at my local pet supply stores.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna, it just depends on what your local pet stores carry, this is why I gave the primary ingredient that you should look for. The actual name of the product that I get of this kind is 'Scalex'--the spray on kind, not the small bottle for applying as drops. This is what is mostly available here, it may go by a different
manufacturer/name where you live.

http://www.petdiscounters.com/Scalex-Mite-Lice-Spray-for-Birds-p800.html

I've also heard it used internally, although I'm not convinced that application would be effective as it's basically a clay. Using internally might be beneficial for the health issues that taking clay internally is normally used for, but it's
'shredding' action would not be available in the 'wetted' form, I would think. It's not good for the lungs to inhale it, however. Just talk to a sculpturer on the topic.  

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you both so much. To actually see the products helps me a great deal. I will go to the pet store this afternoon and look for them. Thanks again.

Vesna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't know what you absorbed from Winston's thread but I'll say that I never did know why he lost those feathers in the first place. It wasn't my impression that it was due to a bug of some kind. That terrible smell that he had might have been due to a bacterial infection of the ulcerative dermatitis on his keel or it might have been due to something else. All I can tell you is that it took a bath in the Clorox water (with liquid soap to make it penetrate) in order to clear that odor. It's possible that the salve on the keel helped but I'll never know.

It actually took many months before his primary flight feathers regrew in such a way as to be normal and they had to do it a few times. It could have been a bacterial infection, fungal, something weirder... who knows? When I was looking for the source of the smell, I did part the feathers on that wing down to the skin (that's tougher than you might think) and thought that the skin didn't look right but I just don't know. 

That said, you may be in for an extended deal here so don't get discouraged. 

Pidgey


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