# HELP!!! 4 days post-hatch - NO MASS INCREASE



## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello. I have no experience in hand-raising birds, but somehow got two hatchlings of fantails, and was feeding them with the mixture of Gerber (chicken), plain yogurt and vitamins and amino acids. They are fed three times a day, and when feeding I checked the size of the crop so that I am not feeding when they are still full. 
The problem is that although it seems like they are eating OK their mass is not increasing. And they seem to have difficulties in defecating (I can see that they are trying hard!). Anybody knows what to do?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is there any way you could get some Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula or something comparable? Where, basically, are you?

Pidgey


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*From south Korea - please help*

The thing is that I am in South Korea, where most of the formula are not available. 
Do you think the problem might be the formula?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I kinda' suspected from your chosen name for the forum that an exotic location might be the case. There's a recipe for a really good formula on here somewhere--back in a sec with a link.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, go read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15236

Do you have a scale capable of weighing these little guys? I ask because it's harder than you think to tell that they're growing for the first few days.

Pidgey


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*Does the proportion matter?*

I think I have seen this info. There was no way I could get digestive enzymes, so I could not do anything about it. It may sound stupid but how important it is to follow the exact amount of all the components?
Luckily, I am using digital balance (borrowed from a lab) with 0.1g precision. On the first day, they were 10-11g; now they are 13-14g, the same mass as two days ago. Is it normal? I expected the growth rate would be higher.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it should be although they usually grow a lot slower on formula anyhow. Sometimes they suffer a case of "aerophagia" where they swallow some air and it looks like they're more full in the crop than they really are. Is there any way that you could get some adult birds to foster them?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The statistic out of the book, by the way, is that they typically double their mass within 34 hours from hatching providing they're being raised by their parents and there are no problems.

Pidgey


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*Not sure about the parents*

We still have the parents - but I am not sure if the parents would provide food to the nestlings. All started when somebody (who had no idea on what will happen) took the eggs out of the nest and put them in the incubator. Is there any chance that the parents would accept the hatchlings if we took the nestling back?
I am also checking if there's air inside their crop, and on and off I am removing the air. Hopefully I am doing OK in terms of that.
Double the mass by 34 hrs - sounds not optimistic at all...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They might--couldn't hurt to try if you stay close by and watch to see how the parents take it.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you can't find any formula for baby birds in your area try switching from Gerber chicken to Gerber cereal. Also yogurt is good for the probiotics it contains, but try to keep the yogurt to a minimum. A ml or two of yogurt a day is enough for them.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

ajumma said:


> We still have the parents - but I am not sure if the parents would provide food to the nestlings. All started when somebody (who had no idea on what will happen) took the eggs out of the nest and put them in the incubator. Is there any chance that the parents would accept the hatchlings if we took the nestling back?
> I am also checking if there's air inside their crop, and on and off I am removing the air. Hopefully I am doing OK in terms of that.
> Double the mass by 34 hrs - sounds not optimistic at all...



Hi ajumma, a thought struck me while reading this post, that if massaging
the crop to get any possible air to escape, this should be done w/great care
and when the crop is let's say no more than 1/3 full. If your babies' crops
are not ballooning w/air, there is just a normal ebb and flow to the operation
of the crop in a healthy baby. Maybe just relax a bit, even though it's your first time being a pigeon parent  .

Just a little summary of the site....the site index page lists all the different
sections/forums that are available to members. Here's a link to the Resource
Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

There's alot of information in this section in the form of "stickies" on healthcare issues and notably on the care and feeding of babies as well
as different methods of feeding. Here are some links to a few of those including how to provide supplemental heat:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13601

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9918

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

Here's one on the day to day development of babies:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9500

Some of the information you may already be aware of, but I just wanted
to make sure that you had a chance to look through it.

Are their crops emptying without any difficulty?

fp


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*Thanks to everybody*

Just wish to thank everybody who showed their interests -- This is really amazing!

I think I did not "squeeze" too much so it would be OK.
The speed of the crop being empty is really slow. I am not feeding them a lot (probably less than 1/2 of the maximum) but it takes nearly 5 hrs to feed them again.
I checked the pictures of daily growth - it is sad to find out that my squabs, although they are 4-5 days old, they are still the size of 2 day-old chick in the picture..


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

ajumma said:


> Just wish to thank everybody who showed their interests -- This is really amazing!
> 
> I think I did not "squeeze" too much so it would be OK.
> The speed of the crop being empty is really slow. I am not feeding them a lot (probably less than 1/2 of the maximum) but it takes nearly 5 hrs to feed them again.
> I checked the pictures of daily growth - it is sad to find out that my squabs, although they are 4-5 days old, they are still the size of 2 day-old chick in the picture..


Your welcome...just wanted to raise that issue of checking the crop, as there
is the possibility of causing them to aspirate if food comes too far up when
'squeezing/checking'.

OK, well, check on the warmth of the babies, they can get a sluggish crop
just from not being warm enough. It's very politically incorrect, but I do have
old down vests on hand that I use for babies that simulates the warmth
that the parents provide....anyway, check the body temperature issue for
these two. 

You might want to add some applesauce to the mix here to see if this will 
help w/the crop function. Another thing that can help is giving them warm
water between feedings. Don't know if you have health food stores in Korea
similar to what is available here, but a human grade probiotic may also be of
help for these two babies. Try some of the suggestions made so far and see
if you notice any changes and we can go from there. Good luck and look forward to your updates.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ajumma said:


> We still have the parents - but I am not sure if the parents would provide food to the nestlings. All started when somebody (who had no idea on what will happen) took the eggs out of the nest and put them in the incubator.


I hope you properly told this someone that pigeon parents are BEST at raising healthy babies, as they have all the proper equipment. 

Once they are old enough to swallow seeds, that is what their parents will regurgitate to them, should they accept them.They should be around 10 to 15 days, that is when the crop milk diminshes and their seed diet would normally increase. Do you have any other pigeon couples that have been parents, they might also be likely candidates?

If they are not pooping because of the mixture may be too dry, you can add a drop of olive oil to help them poop, but NO more then a drop, even 1/2 a drop would be better.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ajumma, 



Probably they are not getting enough water and are dehydrated.

Ideally, for their benifit, their Pigeon Parents should raise them, especially in the beginning.


If this is not possible to arrange, make sure to have their formula more 'soupy', and to also let them drink between meals.

Food and Water both must be close to body temperature.

Also, the Babys must be kept at about your own body temperature at all times...so their tiny bodys are in fact definitely 'warm' and not allowed to chill.

Too, if you are adding supplimental Vitamines, you might be Over Dosing them.


Do you have a small Coffee Grinder?

If so, you can grind appropriate Seeds and dried Berrys into a fine powder and make various formulas from scratch.




Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

Have You Tried Ordering The Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula Off Line And Have It Shippied To You. I know Ebay Has 2 Listed But They Only Ship With in The US. Want To Think I Found Some On Ebay One Time Before That Shippied Worldwide. I'll Look And See If I Can Find One That Ships Worldwide. 

Best Wishes For Your Little Ones.


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=5755 They Ship Worldwide You Will Have To E-mail Them Your Address And What Items You Would Want And They Will Send You A E-mail With Shipping Cost. I Would try And buy enuff To Last Until After Weaning And Have Some Lift. This Would Save You Some Money.


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*Thanks again!*

I will try to add one more drop of olive oil in the diet (which I already did).
I suspected that it is because the diet is so thick - but making it more soupy and giving them warm water between the meals is not making it better. 
Having something ordered from abroad and have it shipped usually takes a week (even with expediate); by then hopefully they grow and be able to digest some seeds.
I will also try to give them ground seeds - I am also raising canaries. Can I use the same food for squabs?

Thanks again.
Best wishes to all of you and all the pigeons and animals around you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ajumma said:


> Hello. I have no experience in hand-raising birds, but somehow got two hatchlings of fantails, and was feeding them with the mixture of Gerber (chicken), plain yogurt and vitamins and amino acids. They are fed three times a day, and when feeding I checked the size of the crop so that I am not feeding when they are still full.
> The problem is that although it seems like they are eating OK their mass is not increasing. And they seem to have difficulties in defecating (I can see that they are trying hard!). Anybody knows what to do?




Hi ajumma, 



Sorry, somehow I had misread your original mention of what you were feeding them.


'Gerbers Chicken' is probably toxic to them and should be discontinued.

See if their parents will accept them back.


Formula for Baby Canarys should be alright, if need be.

No 'meat'...


Once adequate hydration is started, it may take a day before their systems are actually adequately hydrated.



Good luck...


Phil
l v


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## goulian (May 15, 2007)

Hello Ajumma,

I am also located in South Korea, just outside of Camp Casey (Dongduchon) I am looking for a young pigeon to have as a house pet. I was wondering just where you are located in South Korea and if maybe you have a young bird to give or sell to me. It really does not matter what kind of pigeon it is, as long as it is young (they tame easier than older birds). If you can not help, maybe you know someone who can. Thank you.


Mike


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*Sad News*

Last night, during the night, the younger one died.
The older one is somehow suffering for breathing after being once fed in the morning. I took him to the vet. Vet is taking care of him. It sucks that all vets in Korea only learn and deal with cats and dogs... Vet said that she doubts if he can survive. She does not know what the reason is.
I am terribly feeling guilty that I did not do the right job and let the squabs suffer. And I feel bad that I am in a country that I cannot do whatever I want to do - for example finding proper food for pigeons. 
Thanks for all the advice. I will post a message if there's more news.

Gerber chicken - how can it be toxic? I was following the instructions which was written in the "Hand-raising Birds".


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ajumma,

I am so sorry this is not all going well. Bless you for helping. The Gerber chicken food is not toxic .. it just should not be the entire diet for the little pigeon. I often add Gerber baby food to my Kaytee Exact during the first 1-7 days for baby pigeons.

You have done all you could do here, and we all thank you for that. Let's hope the little bird that is at the vet's will come through and be OK.

Please let us know how it all goes. We care.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ajumma said:


> Gerber chicken - how can it be toxic? I was following the instructions which was written in the "Hand-raising Birds".



Hi ajumma, 


You meant well..!


New Born Birds, 'altritous' Birds particularly, are little more than exteriorized embryos, and are very delicate and very fragile...the foods their parents would feed them are usually impossible for us to duplicate, and also, the foods which Pigeon or Dove Parents feed their New Born Babys particularly, contain anti-bodys and special things the Baby needs, for which there are no handy or easy substitutes.


Pigeons are 'Vegan'...and animal flesh, especially factory processed kinds containing endless pollutions and residues of decay and medicines and other unhealthy things before being processed, are in fact toxic for anyone, and would be especially so for any tender Vegan Species Neonate.

No brand of Factory made people-baby-food, should even be fed to a people-baby, if one wishes it to thrive.


I would say that attemting to raise and care for a true neonate Pigeon or other Altritial Species, should not be undertaken unless it is truely the only recourse possible, and, then, one should accept at the onset, that the slightest miscalculation can or will reasult in the Baby perishing.

Neonate Pigeons are fed 'Pigeon Milk' by their parents, for about the first five or six days exclusively...which while containing special excreted Cells and Fats form the Parent's own Body, are profoundly different than processed 'meat' or flesh of other Animal species.


Probably, one could devise a formula which would suffice for neonate Columbiforms, using selected Vegetable Fats, enzymes, Amino Acids, and Sugars, but it would be especially difficult to manage the anti-bodys, or more discrete or unknown constituants, even if one could manage the rest of it in a general way.

Such Neonates in Nature would be fed thirty to fifty times a day in tiny and extremely gentle meals, which would be Liquid meals.


They are just very fragile, and their needs are not especially forgiving even to our best of intentions.


I am sorry things did not work out, but please realize, it is a very difficult undertaking even for those who already have lots of experience with slightly older Babys.


I know I can be expected to pretty well 'Bat a Thousand', with any Baby Pigeon over three days old.

Lets say you would almost never loose money, betting on a good outcome.

But one who is one day old, or two...I would not advise you to bet money on my being successful...and if I was successful, I would be worn out by day five or so from worry...and amazed the Baby even made it at all.


So...golly...


You gave it a good try..!


It is just a lot harder than you had supposed.



Phil
l v


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

I'm So Sorry to Hear about Your Little One Passing. I Will Prey For the Other Baby. 

I Would Order Some Of the Kaytee. Just To Have On Hand. Owning Pigeons i keep Some Around Just in Case I Need It. 

What You Did Was The Best You Could Do. And Thats better Then What Most people Would Have Done. Trying Counts More Then You May Know. We Can't Save Them All. The Love This Baby Had With You Was Worth a lifetime. so don't Get Upset With yourself.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry the baby didn't make it.
Thanks for trying.
You might want to consider ordering the baby bird formula and keep it on hand. If you refrigerate it it is good for a long time.

Reti


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## ajumma (Nov 6, 2007)

*The other one did not make it*

Hey guys

I am sorry to post another sad news. The vet tried drops of vitamins and some kind of medication which helps the chick breathing. She was also providing oxygen. It was not getting better. Vet told me that she did what she could do but she does not see any hope. So we decided to bring the chick back home. On the way back from the vet, the poor hatchling died. I wish he and his sibling rest in peace now and somehow know that we were so happy to be with them even though it was such a short time. 
Thanks for all your help and advice. I will order Kaytee for future use.. although I am not sure if I will be willing to take baby pigeons again. Maybe I could use it for my canaries, who are always eager to breed.

Again best wishes to all of you and to those beings who give us love and joy

From South Korea, 
AJUMMA


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about the death of both babies, may they rest in peace.

God bless you for trying to do your best to help the little ones. I hope this tragedy has tought a very valuable lesson to that someone who removed the eggs from the parents.


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

I'm Sure You Did All You Could to Help These Sweet Baby Birds. They Are At Peace Now. And Please don't Stop Helping These Great Birds. Once You Have The Supply's And A Group Like This Here To Help You along The Way. It does Get Better. Like You Said There isn't Really Anyone there That Could Help With Hand Feeding Those Baby's It Was You. 
This Site Could Help You Get A Supply List together For The Next Time For Babys or Adult Pigeons. Which Will Help The Next Time You Help One Of These great Birds. 
Thanks Again For All You Did for Both The Babys. You Are A Great Presons for helping.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It can be pretty tough raising pigeon hatchlings from the egg. I did it once but I had the prepared formula, too. We tried raising one years ago on a homemade preparation and it went virtually exactly yours did--it hurt, too.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so very sorry the second baby didn't make it either.
It is so hard to raise babies at that age. We just can't replace what their parents give them.


Reti


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