# bad canker/pox pigeon



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, most of you know this guy, he was mentioned in my other thread. sorry to confuse things.
here's the link to his pics again

http://pets.webshots.com/album/560023207XJwuAt

being treated with baytril and flagyl.
put diluted iodine on beak with brush, nostrils completely eaten away.
bad canker inside beak, cannot eat on own. am carefully tube-feeding.
outlook poor.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Poor little fella.........that's sad. I hope he'll make it through. You're an angel.


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Poor bird! I did not know that canker can be so nasty. 

Hopefully he'll survive this ordeal.

I think you're doing great for the birds, Moxie!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, it takes a lot of courage to try to help a pigeon that is this sick and damaged and thank goodness you have that kind of courage because it isn't easy.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

the first thing i thought when i caught him, was euthanasia, and i hate euthanasia. only when it's really needed i dont hate it.
well, so i was gonna call the animal "rescue" league, because we all know what they do for rescue, they rescue them from life. at least i have that though, a place as a last resort if things are not working out. i used to give all my animals/birds to them, and not one did they save, so thats when i found Pigeon Talk!
so, his beak is in poor shape, bits are falling off, and the valley in the pic, about where the cere would be, is actually deeper than the pic shows. it's really bad, stinky, and his eyes are starting to pus up too. i feel horrible for his guy.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

Unfortunately the "canker" inside the beak could also be pox. If it is canker then the nodule should reduce very quickly, it usually clears up within 10 days.

If you have spartrix you should use that as well as the Flagyl. The case is serious enough to justify the "double whammy" and it is a giood medicine for reducing the size of the nodule and opening up a way for food and medication very quickly.

As Maggie says you have a lot of courage, fighting both these diseases is an emotionally gruelling experience.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

can pox look like canker, as in white/yellowish cheesy stuff?
yes, every time i look at him, it kinda makes me sick to my stomach for the poor guy.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi moxie,



If you can get some Colloidal Silver in the little finger tip plunger 'Spray' Bottle ( most Health Food Stores) , it can be a good one for topical situaitons like this...slightly dilute Hydrogen Peroxide also can be very good, can dry things out which are 'wet' with infection as those Ceres are...

Too, having some actual 'Antibiotic Eye Ointment' on hand is good, in case you start seeing an Eye which is getting infected.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

In the mouth it like canker but flatter and smoother.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pox lesions don't tend to get the cheesy build up...they seem to stay looking
like lesions, as Cynthia mentioned, flatter. Also, if you've had the bird on canker medication, it will not seem to help these lesions.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> In the mouth it like canker but flatter and smoother.
> 
> Cynthia


Are you talking specifically about "wet pox" or is there a presentation of "dry pox" that occurs inside the mouth?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Are you talking specifically about "wet pox" or is there a presentation of "dry pox" that occurs inside the mouth?
> 
> Pidgey


Wet pox, dry or cutaneous occurs in dry/external sites yet is in the skin.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It does look to me that this poor pigeon has both pox and canker. If you will recall the Egyptian Goose I posted about with both wet and dry pox, I think you will see some similar things with this pigeon. We were pretty much able to eradicate the external/dry pox in the Egyptian but could never get on top of the internal/wet pox. I truly hope for a better outcome for this pigeon. The Egyptian was eventually euthanized after several months of intensive care.

Terry


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

So sorry to hear of your ordeal. Don't give up, I know just how you feel. Each time I handeled my canker/pox baby to feed or medicate it I worried about hurting it, just be as gentle as you can be. My baby lost it's entire lower beak, I don't kow if you remember that are not. She's doing very well now. I don't know about losing the upper beak and still having the lower beak, but you'll just have to wait and see where this goes. I'm sending encouragment and prayers your way. If you need to talk I'm here. Marie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It does look like a combination of canker and pox, and both of them and the different kinds of pox can and do occur together. The wet pox is hard to deal with as it can enter the bloodstream and take up residency in the organs. High protein and hand feeding are important to keep up the reserves.

There was that case a while back that Jules came here with and she posted on an herbal approach to treat her pox birds with, she had two pretty severe cases on her hands. Again, I know folks would pass the hat if you needed some of those things Moxie that Jules posted about but didn't have the money to get them with. They won't cure, but may provide comfort.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

thanks for the words of encouragement everyone. i'm letting evryone know, i wont be on tomorrow or Sunday, i have a job i cant get out of.
i'll be leaving 11 am, and wont be back until Sunday afternoon. any advice how to make sure they hold up during that time? i'd bring him with if i could, but i just cannot.
my roommate sucks at anything related to pigeons, and i'm way too nervous about him afte what happened last time, so??
also, this guy, i've been feeding, and not putting water or food in with him. he might take the beak off by pecking, and i've been leaving him in the dark, if i let light into his cage he goes nuts and slams againt the sides and sticks his head through the holes, so i'm at a loss as to what to do?
the inside of mouth is canker, for sure, cheesy white and yellow growths. a big piece came out when he shook his head during medicating him.
also, he throws up a TINY bit when i feed him. not feeding him too much, really, i started out giving him 5 cc 2x day, for the first day, now am giving 20cc 2-3x day.
he is VERY thin, he wasnt as thin when i got him, but what i think it is, he must of been eating a few days before i caught him, and the weight just started to fall off as i got him. when i caught him, he was pecking at seed, not getting it though.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moxie,



About all I can think of to mention...


Is for a very 'explosive' Bird such as he seems to be, and when you are for sure going to have to be doing things with him for some while ( unlike say just needing to splint a Leg or something where you do not need to handle them more than a few times in a few weeks)...

Wrap him gentlhy in two Paper Towells with his Legs pointing 'back' against his Tail...and handle him that way, of course gently and soothingly.


Lots of 'Hand Nest'...with him similarly wrapped in a light cloth with his Head free and out so he can see...and you offering compliments, praise, and other soothing cooing assuring tones while doing so.

Hold him up a little above your Eye level now and then, and talk with him with clear simple thoughts and words, about what you need to do and will be doing, and how much you like him and how you know and HE knows he needs these things to be done and how you know all this is a very different order of experience from what he was used to.


You can cover his Head then with a light threadbare wash cloth or some tee-shirt material, too...and do some Hand Nest time that way, keeping him with you, on your lap and so on...if it is hot there, mist or dampen the cloths to make it a little cooler for him.


These elements, the communication, the eye contact with him a little higher than your Eyes...showing him the 'Tube' and affirming things verbally when you are about to feed him...or 'pill' him...show him the pill, gold it so he can peck at it if he wants, tap it gently against his Beak tip...


Keeping your hands low against the cage floor, and all movements slow, when dealing with him...

Asking him if you may please come 'in' when you wish to reach into his Cage...then pause, and reach in slow and low...while talking about it, "We need to do "this" now, and..."



I have found that usually, even the worst 'exploders' will come around with these observances/respects.



Anyway, I have seen the weight keep going "down" even after I have been feeding and medicating several days...and then, if all is well, things sort of make a turn and start to come back up, or, at least the Bird's moralle does, and the weight s-l-o-w-l-y follows..sometimes very slowly.


I narrate everything to them...whatever I need to do, I ask, narrate, make light humor, show them the tools or whatever, and then I do it as gently as I can.

I can not win every one over, but it is rare there is one I do not win over well enough for them to co-operate enough for the whole thing to be ever so much easier than if they were not.


I would be glad to run through the recipes I use for the formulas for convelsent or near starved or seriously ill Pigeons, if you are interested.


As far as how he will make out if not fed and watered for 24 or 36 Hours, I would not expect it to be very good for him at this point...but, he is likely pretty tenaceous to have made it this far, so if you medicate him with the anti Canker meds, make sure to hydrate him well WITH actual Electrolytes, and get in what formula you can with what room is left...you will have done your best to give him something to coast on in your absense.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Moxie,
How are your pijjies doing? 

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cindy, i'm going to take pics and post them in the next hour or two. the canker guy seems to be doing better, as in the canker is receding, the beak is drying up, not as much "wet" pus and liquids coming from different spots.
although, the bad side to that is, the beak is weaker and weaker.
i wonder if there is something i could put in that "valley (the valley that used to be beak, and is now eaten away deeply)," where the ceres would be to strengthen the beak, also, that is where the weakest spot seems to be. everytime i feed or medicate, it takes sooo long because i have to be so careful, and he doesnt cooperate too well. poor guy.
oh, he seemed to do fine while i was gone. just must of been thirsty upon my return.
i was down on the Cape, and had to dog/house sit for someone, but getting off the ferry, there was a pigeon on top of the "pirates museum," and there was a pipe coming out of the roof, and the pipe had a LONG piece of fishing line stuck or tied to the pipe, and this pigeon was fighting with that fishing line, trying to pull it out with his beak, and he'd run with it, the slack would take up and he'd lose it. well, catching the ferry the next day, same guy, doing the same thing! talk about determination! must of been making a nest. but he was NOT giving up, poor guy, probably still fighting with that darn line!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Appreciate the update Moxie.  

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

xxmoxiexx said:


> .....
> although, the bad side to that is, the beak is weaker and weaker.
> i wonder if there is something i could put in that "valley (the valley that used to be beak, and is now eaten away deeply),".....
> 
> ...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, first time to the cape, it was nice FP. Boston does have some cool stuff.

ok, now on a serious note, the top beak has fallen off, the WHOLE thing.
i can see now, it was the sinus that was infected with canker. poor guy. now he cant eat, i'm gonna have to tube feed him for geood. he couldnt eat before it fell off, mind you, but i had hope about saving the beak. after a few days it was VERY obvious that wasnt going to happen, it started to shrivell up, scab up where the beak meets face, and the purple parts turned black.
so, i found him like that this morning, will load pics tonight, just wanted to put this out there ASAP.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moxie,


Now, his Crop and digestive system might not be ready for larger Seeds just yet, or even for some time, but when you think he is ready, the following can be very useful -


Too, you could begin now, but just stay with small to medium size Seeds and Berry pieces, so as to feel sure these will pass possibly atrophied Crop and passage to Stomach places.

If you can get actual 'Pigeon Mix' Seeds, which contain a variety of small dried Peas, and other seeds...the Peas are convenient for putting into the Mouth of Beakless Pigeons.


As are small kernal "plain" old fashioned un-popped 'Pop Corn', and, if to a lesser degree, 'White Safflower Seeds' or the kernals only 9 must be fresh and not rancid) of Sunflower Seeds 9 most Healthfood stores would have the things I am mentioning, but for the Pigeon seed Mix of course...)

Too, semi-dry 'Gogi-Berrys', cut into halfs or thirds, are also excellent.


One can make a little Saucer presentation of a meal's worth of these items...


...and, on the Saucer, pour just a little fresh Olive Oil in one spot...

And to the Olive Oil, add some powdered Purple Dulce, some Brewer's Yeast ( NOT Baking Yeast) and some chlorella or other 'Super Green' powder...


And mix these into a slurry with the little bit of Olive Oil...


Then, each Seed or Berry, just rub it into the Oil-powder slurry, and 'Seed-Pop' it into his Mouth.


Too, with this, after some rounds of it over some days, the Pigeon can be introduced to these same items in a small low wide bottom Cup, so they are higher than the usual Seed Bowl.


And, encourage him to eat by something like pecking, but where instead, he merely opens his Jaw to take a Seed or half Berry as if he were 'pecking' but he will do it more slowly.


Anyway, these items, prepaired this way, will greatly benifit him nutritionally and health wise and for gaining his weight back...


And with time and accomidation, he can learn to eat by himself by changing his old habits.


Sorry you ended up with so many difficult ones Moxie...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Right now I have a bird with the lower beak missing, all of it. She learned to eat great on her own, all it requires is a deep bowl with food.

Your bird might still not feel good enough to eat on his own but will so in time.
My main concern would be the tongue, if it is sticking out too much it will dry up.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

the tip was dry, so i moistened it, but cant moisten it 24/7, not here enough.
dont you think it will be harder to eat with the top beak gone versus the bottom? or maybe not, what do you think?
Reti, is yours lower beak COMPLETELY gone, all the way up at the head?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Yeah, the lower beak is completely gone. Will try and take a pic of her, she is very hard to catch, must wait till it gets dark. But there is nothing left from the bottom beak.

Cynthia posted about glueing beaks from dead birds. I am still thinking about it. 

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think that applies to pigeons' beaks. I've been working on the idea of making a prosthetic for this bird but will have to work with my own vet for the installation and some on design. Haven't had the chance to discuss it with him, yet. Also wanted to see how this fellow's forehead is going to do. I was thinking to get the bird shipped to me later in the year when the temperatures have cooled enough to do that. He'd be the perfect misfit in a loft full of misfits.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

does anyone have ideas at keeping the tongue moistened? it's already starting to dry out, and considering this guy is going to pidgey in the fall for, hopefully, a new beak, he needs to keep his tongue.
can i put like olive oil on it, or what? I'm reaching here, so i need some help!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Moxie, they use those glycerin 'lolly pops'/swabs in the hospital for humans. 
You could call around and see if you can get those OTC anywhere. 
I mentioned the light film of olive oil earlier as it's non-toxic/edible and we 
know that olive oil is fine for the birds. Oil does act as a moisture
barricade, though it also gets gummy and attracts dust and other air borne
particulates. Glycerin attracts water to the skin, though I don't know
what, if any adverse effects it may have on a pigeon being considerably
smaller than humans. Here's a link to the product I'm referring to:

http://www.hopkinsmedicalproducts.com/product.jsp?path=-1|388|5779&id=397

That is a difficult situation for the bird to keep the tongue moist w/out 
the upper beak. Have you called the PO in both local areas to get a timeline on 
shipping the bird?

Dr. Speer didn't seem to think a beak prothesis would stay permanently 
attached to a bird as large as a pigeon, though when discussing prognosis,
he was referencing the description of a pigeon missing the lower, not upper
mandible. You could write to him directly and ask him any questions that
you have and he will respond to you in email through the VIN site. 

fp

PS-for some reason the link isn't 'linking', but if you copy and paste the address, you 
will be taken to the product.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2007)

Moxie,
I don't want to push any buttons but there is a need to explain some things. The ultimate decision is up to you and Pidgie.

Loss of the upper beak is acutely bad for a bird. The nostrils have a vital function and that is to take in air and there are special filtering tissues in there that filter out dust particles. The air is then transferred to the sinus cavities in the front of the skull where a special mucous is produced that not only continues the filtering process but acts as a mechanism for ejecting the dust from the sinuses through the nostrils. That will no longer happen. The sinuses will continue to produce the mucous and without the ability to eject it, will jam up in there and with no route of escape, could possibly cause pressure in the skull, infection and severe pain.

There is a coanal slit on the inside of the mouth and on the upper beak. It is the exit route for filtered air coming from the sinus cavities, through the nostrils and into the trachea located behind the tongue. That slit also has small hair like structures that serve to additionally filter out the particulates coming through it. They are gone too. The result will be particulate matter constantly being sucked into the lungs and air sacs. This can only produce chronic respiratory infections. A prosthetic device will not stop what is happening to the respiratory system.

To add insult to injury, preening is vital. The bird uses its beak to get oil from the preening gland and spread it all over the feathers. He can't do that anymore so the feathers will lose their insulation abilities and he will be open to any illnesses that are caused by drafts, etc.

I don't know what will happen to the tongue but it might be totally lost and that means the bird won't be able to push food to the back of the throat. Well, actually, without a prosthetic, he won't be able to do that anyway so he'll have to be hand fed for the rest of his life and because of all of the above, I'm not sure how long that will be.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually, if you would like to write to him, you would
go through his website:

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/site/view/96607_ContactUs.pml

Here's his bio at VIN though, and looks as though this is another of these 
sites that one could sign on to for technical info:

http://www.vin.com/VIN.plx?P=ConRepsFeatured&F=53&C=215

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

well, of course that is all up in the air, ultimately, since i dont have access to a vet, Pidgey offered to take the bird and take it to his vet, so his future IS uncertain still.
The beak situation is uncertain also, i am leaving it in Pidgey's hands, and if nothing can be done, he will take care of PTS the guy if needed.
so, since it has never been done, and i understand the top beak is different from the bottom beak, he will see if it can be done. it is still a big MAYBE, but i understand your concerns, i guess i should have typed in the conversation me and Pidgey already had about the whole situation. Pidgey already explained all that to me, and then some, so we are concerned about that, and have discussed just putting to sleep now.
the reason we didnt at FIRST, because i REALLY wanted to, is to give it a chance, even though it was almost certain it would fall off, and also give him some food and rest before that fateful day.
it is ALL still up in the air, but since i am not able or knowlegeable enogh to deal with this, i gave that responsibility to the first person that offered assistance beyond the forum here at pigeon talk, and since me and Pidgey were already discussing the horrible canker spreading up here, it just went from there. i got one with bad canker that died within a half hour of bringing him home, the throat had canker the size of a grape, a big grape, and when i opened the beak, it was covering EVERYTHING, couldnt breathe, couldnt get a tube in, even a VERY thin tube. he was grounded on the street at midnight last night. the severity of the canker here now is just insane. there is about 10-20 with OBVIOUS canker that i cant get yet, they have been flying up, or hiding, to die somewhere. i'm finding a lot of them, and when i pick them up to bury them, the beak or throat is obvious canker. very very bad right now.
now, FP, is there anything else i could use besides that (glycerin pops)? i dont think i can just walk in and get one from a hospital. i can try, but looking for other options while i am here.

PP, any ideas on keeping tongue moist? also, are you thinking it's best to PTS now?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I talked to Dr. Welch Friday evening and we discussed a few things. This bird hasn't lost all of its sinuses by the way--mostly the air-intake scoop. Anyhow, Dr. Welch and I discussed a lot of the aspects of doing this. He's willing to give it a try and we'll be discussing attachment designs over the next little bit. I see that Dr. Speers also did a stint as a president of the AAV so you know those two are probably on a first-name basis. 

Moxie, try Blistex or some other chapstick stuff.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Moxie,
In addition to Pidgey's conversation with Dr Welch, it would be proactive of you to talk to Dr. Spear and gather as much information and opinions as you can. I think it would be excellent if you personally had a conversation with Dr. Welch as you are the one that can best describe the bird. That will help you make the best decision for the bird. 
I don't think that decision is yet known.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Anything that you put on needs to be as non-toxic as possible, Moxie. That's
why I suggested the Olive Oil earlier. Chapsticks frequently have petroleum
based products, you could try somewhere like Whole Foods or some of the
other health food stores to see what they have for natural chapsticks.

It's worth a shot to email Dr. Speer, he is what folks refer to as a 'world-class'
vet as he is licensed to practice avian medicine in Europe and the US....I'd
think his input would be significant on this subject of the loss of the upper
mandible.

fp


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