# Babies dying



## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

It seems like I have a huge problem and need some help. I've been trying to raise some late hatches but I've had a very high mortality rate. I've noticed a few weeks after the pigeons hatch their crop is nice and full and then all of a sudden their crop gets smaller and smaller and then they die. Their parents continue to feed them but then they stop when they notice the babies are really weak. I've tried treating them for worms, Coccidiosis and e-coli. Nothing seems to work. Any help would be great


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Can you be a bit more specific about the timescale of a 'few weeks'? It can make a difference to what may be the problem. Also, are they all going the same way or, say, only one of the two youngsters from the same parents?


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

By a few weeks I mean 3 weeks, and yes after one dies the other shows the same symptoms and dies as well


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Mmm .. had been wondering about the possibility of one or both parents being carriers of Paratyphoid, which could mean they wouldn't necessarily show any obvious symptoms themselves. Unlikely if there's several pairs of adults breeding, though.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

I forgot to mention the youngsters have wet runny droppings.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

gogo10131 said:


> It seems like I have a huge problem and need some help. I've been trying to raise some late hatches but I've had a very high mortality rate. I've noticed a few weeks after the pigeons hatch their crop is nice and full and then all of a sudden their crop gets smaller and smaller and then they die. Their parents continue to feed them but then they stop when they notice the babies are really weak. I've tried treating them for worms, Coccidiosis and e-coli. Nothing seems to work. Any help would be great




are you using that black nest pads from JEDDS? i have the same problem before and later found out that the pads are causing it for they were built from toxic materials. somebody here posted a result of the findings by a reputable laboratory when they did an analysis of the pads materials.


kalapati
San Diego

http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


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## Sky Island (Aug 12, 2011)

have you tried hand feeding? my pigeons had chicks and one seemed ok but the other was staying small and getting weaker and the parents wouldn't feed it so i blended some seeds in warm water and fed it through a syringe and he began to get bigger. do you think they may be being malnourished?


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

I did recently buy some nestpads from jedds and they didn't have the one I usually buy but their not black. Here's a photo of the actual pads I got just to make sure.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You really need to get that poor baby out of that bowl and clean it. He's wet with droppings. He needs to be cleaned off as well and dried. I would keep changing the bowl and keep him as dry as possible. Possible Salmonella?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would perhaps take a guess it may be one of these.Streptococcus infection, Trichomoniasis ... not sure about the pads but after treatment of both of these..and you have the same thing happen while using the pads then you would know it it is effecting your babies.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

To go further than Jay3 said, scrape that box twice a day. Do not just remove the droppings. Push down on the scraper, pulling towards you until to don't get any gray stuff on the scraper. Wash that bowl with bleach and rinse until you could drink from it. Put in a fresh nest pad if that is all you have. Do this twice a day, everyday.

I would put a good pigeon vitamin and a pigeon pro biotic in the water every other day so that the birds could recover without medications. (This would be a flock treatment)

Until you get that loft clean enough to crawl around on your hands and knees you will have health problems. Your video made me want to throw up.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

I already switched out the bowl and yes rpalmer it was a dirty sight. I haven't treated them for Streptococcus or trichomoniasis or Paratyphoid. The parents show no signs and look healthy as usual.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In speaking with another member, they feel it may be canker along with a bacterial infection of some sort. Have you checked down the babies throats? Have you smelled their breath and droppings? How do they smell? I will also mention that you cannot always see canker in the throat.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

Their droppings smell pretty bad kinda sour, but a really bad small. When I checked its throat I didn't see anything but I wasn't sure what to look for after googleing some photos I now know what to look out for. I can't check his throat again until tomorrow morning.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

gogo10131 said:


> Their droppings smell pretty bad kinda sour, but a really bad small. When I checked its throat I didn't see anything but I wasn't sure what to look for after googleing some photos I now know what to look out for. I can't check his throat again until tomorrow morning.


Canker can also be internal (you wont be able to see it). If it was me, I would worm, treat for canker, and treat for at least 14 days with amox.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm thinking canker as well after doing some research. Is their something you guys recommend? For me it doesn't matter if it's a tablet or powder I mix in their water as long as it works.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

gogo10131 said:


> I'm thinking canker as well after doing some research. Is their something you guys recommend? For me it doesn't matter if it's a tablet or powder I mix in their water as long as it works.


Ronidazole 10% works great and is fairly cheap


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

rpalmer said:


> Until you get that loft clean enough to crawl around on your hands and knees you will have health problems. Your video made me want to throw up.


 I agree,....for a loft & breeding, its a disgrace. Even feral pigeons living under bridges in cramped and damp conditions live cleaner than that.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Quazar said:


> I agree,....for a loft & breeding, its a disgrace. Even feral pigeons living under bridges in cramped and damp conditions live cleaner than that.


He doesnt want it to look like that...he is having problems, why dont you cut him some slack and try to help rather than making the situation worse


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Quazar said:


> I agree,....for a loft & breeding, its a disgrace. Even feral pigeons living under bridges in cramped and damp conditions live cleaner than that.


The more I think about it, the more a post like this pi*ses me off!! This guy is having a hard time with a hobby we all love, and all you can do is make him feel worse about his loft and birds.....cmon offer some help!!!!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> He doesnt want it to look like that...he is having problems, why dont you cut him some slack and try to help rather than making the situation worse


And half the problems are probably caused by the state of the loft.
Any one with an ounce of common sense would keep it clean, even moreso when birds are sick.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Quazar said:


> And half the problems are probably caused by the state of the loft.
> Any one with an ounce of common sense would keep it clean, even moreso when birds are sick.


Hey Bob, since you know what is best, why not offer help rather than critisize???


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Hey Bob, since you know what is best, why not offer help rather than critisize???


If I knew what was definately wrong I would, but critiscism is not a bad thing - if one learns from it.
When birds are going sick, and especially when a pattern is forming, you dont leave them in a filthy situation that certainly wont help, and sorry, but from watching the video, its not just the nest, perches & other areas look like they have not been cleaned for a while.
Sorry if I offended, but its common sense.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> The more I think about it, the more a post like this pi*ses me off!! This guy is having a hard time with a hobby we all love, and all you can do is make him feel worse about his loft and birds.....cmon offer some help!!!!


Thanks southtown and all those who offered their help. I'm gonna order some medicine online. It doesn't bother me what others have to say its their opinion let them say what they please.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, he does need help in finding out why his birds are dying, but as far as the conditions in the loft, he needs to be told that also. If people gave him advice on medications, but said nothing about the conditions they are kept in, then they wouldn't really be helping. A loft should be kept clean and dry for birds to be healthy. If you will keep a sick baby, or any baby, in filth like that, then you sure aren't taking care of your birds in other areas either. If that is how you keep your birds, you are going to have a lot of illness. So yes, he does need to be told.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Quazar said:


> I agree,....for a loft & breeding, its a disgrace. Even feral pigeons living under bridges in cramped and damp conditions live cleaner than that.


well lets all tell him just like this


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

gogo10131 said:


> I did recently buy some nestpads from jedds and they didn't have the one I usually buy but their not black. Here's a photo of the actual pads I got just to make sure.


I use this pads in my loft, it's very good 

plz note that some genes may cause baby dying

Regards


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SouthTown Racers said:


> well lets all tell him just like this


AND THIS



rpalmer said:


> To go further than Jay3 said, scrape that box twice a day. Do not just remove the droppings. Push down on the scraper, pulling towards you until to don't get any gray stuff on the scraper. Wash that bowl with bleach and rinse until you could drink from it. Put in a fresh nest pad if that is all you have. Do this twice a day, everyday.
> 
> I would put a good pigeon vitamin and a pigeon pro biotic in the water every other day so that the birds could recover without medications. (This would be a flock treatment)
> 
> Until you get that loft clean enough to crawl around on your hands and knees you will have health problems. Your video made me want to throw up.



You can not successfully treat a bird living in those conditions. And to treat a squab that age is iffy. Thanks to everyone who spoke out for the birds by pointing out that they need a proper living space.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

rpalmer said:


> AND THIS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nevermind....I give up!! All Im saying is that we can offer help without being a bunch of asses!!!!!!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Nevermind....I give up!! All Im saying is that we can offer help without being a bunch of asses!!!!!!


Seems to me that YOU are one of those asses.
Whatever treatment or possible remedy is offered will have very little or no effect if the conditions are not improved.

The suggestions from rpalmer in the first instance should be the first steps of help.



gogo10131 said:


> Thanks southtown and all those who offered their help. I'm gonna order some medicine online. *It doesn't bother me what others have to say its their opinion let them say what they please*.


To be honest, it should bother you, it is relevant the health of your birds.
It may be a cumulation of different factors which is causing their deaths but
If you dont address it, no matter what treatment, chances are you will still have ongoing problems.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Nevermind....I give up!! All Im saying is that we can offer help without being a bunch of asses!!!!!!


I may be wrong but I am reading that you advocate an pound of cure at the expense of an ounce of prevention.

People who are up to their neck in flood water need clean, dry clothes. To give them such while they are still up to their neck in water does no good except to say that relief was given.

Even with good advise he responded with "I changed the bowl". But he is ready to buy medications.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This thread is turning into another argument. And the birds are not being helped this way. People are trying to tell him that by keeping birds in those conditions, you are opening yourself up for sickness and disease. That is how disease spreads. So rpalmer's analogy was right on. Unless he takes responsibility for the welfare of his birds, then he can pump medicine into them till the cows come home, and he will never have a healthy loft. For him to simply say "I changed the bowl", as if it were nothing, tells me that he doesn't take caring for them seriously. And he also said that those were our opinions, and it didn't bother him. He's just not getting it. So not much will change. But I don't think that makes us "a bunch of asses". And defending him, and arguing back and forth, is getting everyone off the topic of what to treat with, and for what illness. People gave opinions, that is their right to do. And he needs to hear it. But we can only tell him, what he chooses to do with it is up to him. But arguing isn't going to treat the birds.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I think the point STR was trying to make was, that you can give constructive criticism with out being rude. The rude tone of this forum every time someone has a problem and asks for help only drives newcomers away.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Okay, I can understand what you are saying. It needed to be said, but there were a few comments made that could have been left out. I just think that some are just really upset when they see something like that, and they react to it. We should try to say what needs to be said, but leave out the extra unneeded cracks. Sometimes that is difficult, as everyone is different, and has a different style of communicating, but it is what we should be striving for. We do want to reach the person, not chase them away. Point taken.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

gogo said:


> Their droppings smell pretty bad kinda sour, but a really bad small.


did you try tasting them... 

hey gogo, i would throw all those nestpads just to eliminate the possible causes... most likely that's the primary cause if all your babies sitting with those nestpads are dying. and after you get rid of them make sure to fully water flush the breeders chest feathers for they may still have the toxins on it.


kalapati
San Diego

http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would treat the whole flock for canker..and then stop breeding for now..


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## beaverbandit (Mar 15, 2009)

The nest pads are not the problem, the "BLACK" Belgian nestpads are the ones that caused the babies to die and they die before they are a week old, usually only two to three days old. It sounds more like salmonella to me !


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

Let me try this again;

By saying I changed the nest bowls I was also implying that I cleaned out the nestbox as well. I could have wrote a page about the whole process of scrapping out the poop and disinfecting the box as well but I didn't feel that was needed.

I tend to have a few jumpy breeders so I try to avoid going into their section of the loft all the time, and because of that It isn't as clean as the flying section. I understand that cleanliness is also part of the solution but to say that there never should be any poop in the loft is just not possible. 

I've read enough posts on hear to know that a question or statement can lead to a heated argument and I was trying to avoid that. I understand that some people are more straight forward that others and that's ok to. I'm not mad at them at all. Their just really passionate about pigeons, which is great. With that said enough was enough I didn't like how people we insisting I don't care about my birds. If that was the case I never would have reached out for help. I asked another question about the canker medicine and I think I just got one response to that question. Everyone seemed to be stuck on the cleanliness of the loft after it was mentioned plenty of times. I think I might need to start other topic about canker and when meds do you guys recommend as this is my first time dealing with it. 

NOW here's my plan of attack;

I'm going to stop breeding as of know. I'm going to separate the hens from the cocks to insure there aren't any opps babies. Then I'm going to disinfect every single nest bowl I have weather their new or old. Once that's done I'm going to scrape the nest boxes, and disinfect those as well. I'm also going to go head and treat the whole flock for canker. 

Thanks for everyones help. I really do appreciate it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is the symtoms of canker.
Symptoms of the disease:
In adult pigeons and fledglings, there is a noticable decrease in vitality, reluctance to fly, diarrhoea and a reddening of the throat. As the infection progresses, "yellow buttons" appear on the palatal mucosa, developing into caseous yellow deposits (canker). Do not detach the deposits due to risk of bleeding.
Nestlings develop an umbilical infection and an abscess is formed which can spread to the internal organs. At 10-14 days of age, pungent-smelling liquid droppings and the first signs of retarded growth are observed, with the nestlings constantly squeaking for food. 


here are the symptoms of salmonella;
Clinical signs:
Acute form (mainly affects young pigeons): 

Enteritis with pulpy, mucoid, greenish droppings; once organs (liver, kidneys, spleen) have become infected, there is growth retardation, emaciation and (in isolated cases) death. Embryos infected with salmonellae frequently die in ovo or during the first few days of life.

Chronic form (mainly affects adult pigeons):

Inflammation causes a thickening of the joints, especially the elbow joint, wing or leg lameness, disorders of balance and torsion of the neck. Recognition of the disease: Bacteriological examination of faecal and/or organ samples. An antibiogram is performed to determine which medication is suitable for treatment purposes.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

thanks spirit wings. I'm going to go head and submit the droppings for analysis and take it from there.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

gogo10131 said:


> Let me try this again;
> 
> By saying I changed the nest bowls I was also implying that I cleaned out the nestbox as well. I could have wrote a page about the whole process of scrapping out the poop and disinfecting the box as well but I didn't feel that was needed.
> 
> ...


That is what I would do too... hope all gets better.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Okay, I can understand what you are saying. It needed to be said, but there were a few comments made that could have been left out. I just think that some are just really upset when they see something like that, and they react to it. We should try to say what needs to be said, but leave out the extra unneeded cracks. Sometimes that is difficult, as everyone is different, and has a different style of communicating, but it is what we should be striving for. We do want to reach the person, not chase them away. Point taken.


I just have one more thing to say that is "off topic".........this is the point I was trying to make all along, but people kept butting heads with me, and Thunderbirds comes along, sums it up, and all of a sudden you get it....I dont get it

Anyway, Gogo, let me know if you talked to the contact I PM ed you


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

I understood you from the get go, it was just that I had enough and decided to say something thats all. I agree with what you said, and yes I'll PM you after I call him and let you know whats up


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

gogo10131 said:


> I understood you from the get go, it was just that I had enough and decided to say something thats all. I agree with what you said, and yes I'll PM you after I call him and let you know whats up


Sounds good! Good luck!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SouthTown Racers said:


> I just have one more thing to say that is "off topic".........this is the point I was trying to make all along, but people kept butting heads with me, and Thunderbirds comes along, sums it up, and all of a sudden you get it....I dont get it
> 
> Anyway, Gogo, let me know if you talked to the contact I PM ed you



Think about it. Could be in the way you were saying it. Maybe you could have said things differently too.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Think about it. Could be in the way you were saying it. Maybe you could have said things differently too.


Fair enough


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

gogo10131 said:


> Let me try this again;
> 
> By saying I changed the nest bowls I was also implying that I cleaned out the nestbox as well. I could have wrote a page about the whole process of scrapping out the poop and disinfecting the box as well but I didn't feel that was needed.
> 
> ...


Sorry if you took anything to mean that you didnt care about your birds, as you say, obviously you do or you wouldnt have asked for help.
I was just trying to point out the importance of the fact that it does lead to problems and that those problems would still continue and also inhibit any treatment. 

The fact that you only mentioned changing the bowls, to me sadly did suggest that that was all you did do. Even if you had just said that you'd scrapped the boxes & cleaned the loft, that would have been enough to let everyone know that you were in fact addressing others advice. 

No one is saying or implying that a loft has to be kept poop free, That is totally impossible.
I can understand not wanting to disturb jumpy breeders but sometimes there is no choice or it builds up so quickly and before you know it you are in the situation you are in. The birds WILL get used to you cleaning & in the long run it is far safer for them. 

Sounds like a good plan, and now that we know everything is in progress I do hope everything works out well.


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## gogo10131 (Aug 17, 2010)

So i submitted the samples and it turns out its paratyphoid. I've already disinfected the loft and gave it a nice cleaning, so now i can go out and purchase the right meds.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

gogo10131 said:


> So i submitted the samples and it turns out its paratyphoid. I've already disinfected the loft and gave it a nice cleaning, so now i can go out and purchase the right meds.


baytril or cipro though costly area a great med to get one threw the course with paratyphiod .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You need to make sure that mice can not get in, as they will just spread the illness back to your birds. Flies and other insects can carry it as well, and by keeping a clean loft, you are attracting fewer of these pests. Fresh feed and water every day.


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