# How many pigeons



## whiteflight8 (Dec 2, 2009)

How many pigeons can you put in a 4x8 lofts as seen on some of the web site for racing pigeons


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## WOODRUFF LOFT (Nov 18, 2009)

I have a 5' x 8' loft that has 65 perches. I try to raise around 55 young birds for my race team. It seems that my birds preform better if I don't crowd them up. I read somewhere that you should have several more perches than birds. As soon as training and racing starts you will loose a few birds and that will make more room for the others to use. Getting back to your question your loft can have around 40 box perches on the 8' wall, so if you put 40 birds in there to start with and you train and race it want be long until you have extra perchs. Don


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

There should be no more than 16 in that size of an area....40 birds!!!!! I could not even imagine that in my 4x8 section!!!!! I only have 8 in there....40 would be so wrong. IMO


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## dooie (Oct 31, 2009)

It has been proven that the more the better when it comes to racing as long as its not over crouded and that they have there own perch or box so i would say 40/50 would be grand as long as you can put in a perch for each bird


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

A good rule to follow for a 4X8 loft-1&1/2 square foot per bird of floor space---1&1/2 perch per bird. The perchesbeing on 9 inches from each other both up and down---side by side.
24 birds is the MAX with 36 perches.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

sprint wings, I agree with you a 4x8 loft should hold only 16. 4x8= 32/2=16 you have to
give the birds at least 2 sq. foot per bird.


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## whiteflight8 (Dec 2, 2009)

THanks for all good info I"am looking to get some Gaby Vandenabeele racing pigeon Imported Belgium Den wittenbuik Family I"am just getting started in the sport of racing pigeon At one time i had some rollers


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

whiteflight8 said:


> THanks for all good info I"am looking to get some Gaby Vandenabeele racing pigeon Imported Belgium Den wittenbuik Family I"am just getting started in the sport of racing pigeon At one time i had some rollers


Thats great, but please do not put 40 birds in an 8x4 area.....you will see when you have it up and really look at the space...... Iam clueless why anyone would over crowd like that...race birds or not....it is the same for all types of pigeons.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I agree 40 is wayyyy too many. 20 max, 16 would be better. Good luck!


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## brandonf (Jul 26, 2009)

personally i think you could have up to 30 birds in a loft that size, your biggest problem is going to be overcrowing your food dish! 
i think 30 birds will be fine, just make sure they can get lots of sun and a good air flow comes through. but beable to block off cold air.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't really think of the floor space, 2 walls 8' long 6' high 30 perches on each wall. I think 40 birds would be ok, even better if you have a fly pen out side. You will have to clean the loft every 3 days, 2 would be better. This is just for the race birds not breeders.
Dave


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> I don't really think of the floor space, 2 walls 8' long 6' high 30 perches on each wall. I think 40 birds would be ok, even better if you have a fly pen out side. You will have to clean the loft every 3 days, 2 would be better. This is just for the race birds not breeders.
> Dave


If someone had 40 birds in an area and the birds on average poop about 20 times in a day, that would be 800 poops in one day,x that by three days you have 2,400 poops to clean.... sounds like a recipe for sickness to me. keeping them healthy can be done without meds by keeping a balance, can not get rid of every germ or bactiera out there , but NOT overstocking and scraping daily will keep things in balance which = healthy birds. if he stocks 40 in a 4x8 and only cleans every three days spells e-coli and cocci trouble to me. 
here is some good advice from the IF

"Overcrowding: Simply don't do it. Many people have had their best young bird season ever after a major smash in training leaving them with only 1/3 of their team. The less birds you have the less disease you will have and the easier and cheaper it is to take care of them. You should be like the marines - You only want a few good men."

also.....

"Droppings: In short scrape the loft daily. When a pigeon has coccidia or worms, these organisms are passed in the droppings. They are not, however, infective at that point. They have to sit around for 48 hours or so before they will reinfect a pigeon when eaten. If you will scrape daily you will greatly reduce the reinfection rate in your birds with coccidia and worms. You also will reduce problems with bacterial diseases like E. coli."


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

whiteflight8 said:


> How many pigeons can you put in a 4x8 lofts as seen on some of the web site for racing pigeons


Like every other subject concerning pigeons, you will have numerous ideas as to what the correct answer should be. Besides the square footage, there are other considerations such as the ventilation and the number of perches. Actually, I am not sure how square footage became some sort of standard to go by, because cubic feet of space takes into account air space, which simple square footage does not. 

I fly out of several lofts with a partner, and one of these is 6 x 12, and about 6 1/2 to 7 feet high, and it has fans on both ends, so an attempt was made to enhance the air circulation. If one uses the one rule of thumb I have seen here and elsewhere, then 6 x 12 = 72 divided by 2 = 36 pigeons. In addition I have 58 perches which includes some which are nest boxes. I can tell you from my own personal experience, that every year I attempt to put around 35+ birds in this loft, I will "lose" some until I get down to some number around 24 or less. In other words, the fewer I start with, the fewer I lose. 

I have always suspected, that when fanciers breed "extra" birds, and overcrowd, in order to prepare for losses, then almost like magic, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I really don't know what the maximum number of birds you can keep in your loft, and still be a successful racer. But, I do believe that in many cases, that less equals more. If I am correct, then like magic, Mother Nature will in her own mysterious ways, reduce the population inside this loft one way or another until it has about 2+ perches and 3 square feet, or 21 cubic feet if my math is correct, per bird, and that is with exhaust fans running. If you would apply this to your measurements, and perhaps with no power ventilation, then perhaps the ideal number of birds for a 4 x 8 loft, would be something less then a dozen, with 24+ perches and/or nest boxes. 

In 2003, when I got back into this pigeon game, I flew 14 birds out of a 4 x 6 section, and only lost 1 bird the whole race season, flying in all 9 races without a single "No Report". The ventilation in that loft was excessive, in that the whole front was open in addition to an open grated floor, so perhaps that permitted me to overcrowd like I did. But, regardless what numbers we all may share with you, at the end of the day, like 90% of all fanciers out there, you will in time, push the envelope and overcrowd.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*poop*

Like somebody said, that is a lot of pooh. If you can clean and care for your birds the amount + just that, when it turns out you can't get in you have a problem.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

A lot of wisdom in your statement on Mother Nature, Smith family lofts! I have 12 in an 8 deepx6 across by 6 high. I scrape and pick up poops daily. Can't imagine missing a day and having double!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I am going to be the lone wolf here, and will catch heck for it. But I disagree.

I have three of those 4 x 8 foot starter lofts (I posted pics on here of my first one last year). They were built on the blue prints from the RedRoseLofts starter coop plans.

I put 35 perches in each and ended up putting an additional 5 more in the young bird loft. That makes 40 in the young bird loft.

I had no problems of space with that many birds in a 4 x 8 foot loft. It has an attached aviary on the front of it that is approximately 2 1/2 x 8 foot.

It was my first year racing, in over twenty five years. I did okay and even won a Combine Race, and I fly against the winds and 248 miles for a 200 mile race.

I did lose a lot of pieons but so did everyone else in the club, except for those guys who are flying with the winds. Still they lost more than usual they say.

I did not have any problems with disease. I also want to add that I suffer from Pigeon Lung Disease and therefore try not to spend any more time than necessary in the loft. Therefore I rarely clean it.

But contrary to the above numbers thrown out there about droppings. My coop was always relativly clean looking (for a pigeon coop). I sumise that a lot of the droppings were falling to the ground through the wire floor of the landing board/aviary. There was never an entire floor covering of feces. Only small piles about an inch high, here and there. 

I never scrap. I made my perches so that the droppings fall to the floor. The floor is actually two rubber mats normally used for horse stalls. When I do clean, I simply open the door and drag the rubber mats out. Then I sweep the interior out for what doesn't come out with the mats.

I then squirt the mats with a pressure washer and scrape them with a garden hoe (yes, a garden hoe). It breaks up whatever the pressure washer did not break up and then after the mats dry, I put them back and I am done.

I know that the more room the better. No doubt about it. But I disagree that 30 birds is too many in a 4 x 8 loft. Speaking from experience, it ain't nearly too many. 45 would be too many though. But it is used for racing young birds only and not for breeding nor old birds. There is a difference. In young birds, unless you are a whole lot better than me (or your birds are), you lose them in training and racing. Before you know it, your 30 is now 20. And if you do not lose that many, you still are going to lose some for sure.

Or you ain't training and racing them, and hawks avoid your location for whatever reason (seriously doubt that though).

Okay. I'm ready for those slings and arrows coming my way. 

So, in a nutshell. I think that you could easily put 25 to 30 birds in a 4 x 8, and 40 would work also.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

Here is the link to the plans for the lofts I built. Notice that RedRoseLofts state on there initial description of these lofts that this is a size loft that can accomodate 16 nest boxes. That means 32 birds plus the nesting boxes. I don't have nest boxes in the loft I spoke of (in my breeding loft I only have nine nest boxes). With just perches and not boxes, there is even more room. 35 to 40 birds will be just fine, in my humble opinion and experience.

http://www.redroselofts.com/starter_loft.htm


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I have 3 of these and had one for 5 years. You can keep about 30 yb's or about up to 10 pair of breeders in these. I only keep about 7 pair in each of mine now because I have lots of loft space but used to keep more with no problems. If you keep more than this you will have problems eventually.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> I am going to be the lone wolf here, and will catch heck for it. But I disagree.
> 
> I have three of those 4 x 8 foot starter lofts (I posted pics on here of my first one last year). They were built on the blue prints from the RedRoseLofts starter coop plans.
> 
> ...


So how many did you end up with at the end of the racing season, and how many actually were eaten by hawks ? Not saying I am correct and that you are wrong. Just wondering what your losses would have been had you started with far fewer. Might be one of those questions we really will never know. I am thinking of starting with far fewer birds in that one 6 x 12 loft, and see exactly what the impact will be on a less crowded loft. It can be measured in fewer % losses and racing preformance I would think. I have heard it said by so many great fanciers that an over crowded loft is bad. There has to be an idea number and a number which starts to have a negative impact. Everyone seems to overcrowd expecting losses, which then always come to pass. I guess it is human nature.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here we go again. A 4X8 foot loft, at the most should hold only 16 birds. You take the square footage of the floor, then divide that by 2. That is the standard. When you over crowd, your birds get sick. If you don't clean daily, they have a better chance of getting sick. Be fair to the birds and don't over crowd them.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

4200 poops in the somer they are out in the aviary, here in Nebraska it is light from 6 am till around 9:30 at night. That means 2/3 of the poo is out side. with plenty of ventilation I really don't see the problem. I use wood shavings on the floor, I have a never ending supply. Yes i lose 20% or so of my birds, I started with other peoples culls, my pockets are not as deep as Warrens are. Most of us just have to do what we can. I would love to buy Ludo birds, maybe in 2 years.
Dave


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Jay3 said:


> Here we go again. A 4X8 foot loft, at the most should hold only 16 birds. You take the square footage of the floor, then divide that by 2. That is the standard. When you over crowd, your birds get sick. If you don't clean daily, they have a better chance of getting sick. Be fair to the birds and don't over crowd them.



A clean loft don't keep your birds healthy. It has nothing to do with it, some of the best flyers in the country use inches of poop for deep litter and have healthy birds. I am talking about Art Hees one of the best flyers in flordia and Tony Rossi but there are lots more. You can also read some of the Ad Scherlackens stuff he totally believes in not cleaning and he is one of the best in the world maybe EVER. Ad said he scraped his loft for years and stopped cleaning and never had healthier birds.


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