# What's a reasonable price?



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

On a pigeon from a performance background? Most of the pigeons I see on the auctions are listed between $100-$300. Is that considered decent market value for birds between one and ten years old? 

Also, what does it say when a bird that is only three or four years old is posted? Does that lend to the notion the bird was not productive? It would seem to add to that notion when you see older birds (especially cocks) are sold and fetch a considerable amount of money. For example, a friend of mine was bidding on a direct son of Super Secret of Van Loon fame about a year ago. Even though that bird was around eight years old, the ending amount was around $850. 

Young birds that are bred and sold for the $100 amount, are they tagged low in monetary value because they're "unproven?" Another friend of mine recently told me that he never buys birds that are three to four years or older because he feels they are worthless. That's why the owners wanted to get rid of them. He says he only buys late hatches off good stuff because the late hatches are unproven. 

Any thoughts?


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## ThePoultryFarm (Oct 1, 2010)

Unproven birds that sell high are bought because of their pedigree, or proven family history. It does not necessarily mean the bird will be a winner, just means it has a good shot 

Sometimes people will get a bird like as described above, try it out, and it will suck. They want to re coop some of the costs, so they try and post this 4 year old bird for the original cost or more. 

You cannot classify older birds as worthless just because they are for sale. They might just have not worked out for that particular person. Also, older birds that _did_ do well do often come up for sale, but the price reflects such.


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## ThePoultryFarm (Oct 1, 2010)

Also, as you breed and grow and raise birds, each year you (should) outgrow some of your previous birds. This doesn't make those birds bad, it just means that you have produced better ones now. 
Now, to a young beginner, those birds that are no good for you might just be better than any bird in his/her loft. Therfore, it would be a great addition for them. You dont need it, they do. 

I'm not sure if I explained that clearly?  Perhaps the others can chime in on this one too!


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

This is how I see it. If you are looking to buy a 'Prepotent' bird the only real chance you have is to buy a young, unproven bird, because then the seller doesn't know what it will do and neither do you. (Unless of course you have several thousands of dollars to buy a proven 'Prepotent' bird, which many of us do not, myself included.) As PoultryFarm was saying just because a 3-4 year old bird is up for sale does not mean that the bird is bad. It most likely means it did not produce anything for the previous owner, or that the previous owner has went and spent a nice sum of money on birds which he feels are better. Now, that being said, maybe the bird up for sale just didn't fit the previous fanciers handling methods, maybe he didn't have it paired properly, or maybe it was the wrong type of course for this bird (if you subscribe to the horses for courses idea). 

Now, reading over this I am not sure I answered the question or helped, maybe I just muddied the waters a bit more...


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Matt, it's always good fodder. Don't feel bad if there needs to be an answer or explanation. Just want to read everyone else's viewpoints on the topic.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Sometimes I think their is not enough information to make a quick judgement on a bird that is say 4 years old. Case in point. I gave one of my best youngsters to arguably our worst flier in ABQ. The bird was always his first bird in, all 8 races, but to the back of the pack. I am sure the bird never bred a good bird according to the race sheet, but neither did any of the rest of his birds. Birds many times reflect the handler. knowing the bird and what he did under adverse conditions and his bloodline, I would not hesitate in stocking him. 
As for a four year old vs a late hatch youngster out of good paper. I would take the youngster. Reasons, younger more offspring potential, can train it and test it, and you might be right the four year old may be no good. 
Both my best breeders this year were 05 birds. They have bred well before, but were still five years old. 
Next point. is my mentor has 150 birds. He breeds from about 30. Many of his 4 or 5 year old cock have never been tested. Does this mean they are bad. Not at all. They just have not been tested yet. Would I buy one. Knowing the stock, yes.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Sometimes I think their is not enough information to make a quick judgement on a bird that is say 4 years old. Case in point. I gave one of my best youngsters to arguably our worst flier in ABQ. The bird was always his first bird in, all 8 races, but to the back of the pack. I am sure the bird never bred a good bird according to the race sheet, but neither did any of the rest of his birds. Birds many times reflect the handler. knowing the bird and what he did under adverse conditions and his bloodline, I would not hesitate in stocking him.
> As for a four year old vs a late hatch youngster out of good paper. I would take the youngster. Reasons, younger more offspring potential, can train it and test it, and you might be right the four year old may be no good.
> Both my best breeders this year were 05 birds. They have bred well before, but were still five years old.
> Next point. is my mentor has 150 birds. He breeds from about 30. Many of his 4 or 5 year old cock have never been tested. Does this mean they are bad. Not at all. They just have not been tested yet. Would I buy one. Knowing the stock, yes.


When my club has the auction for the top birds in our Great South Bay Classic what I look for are birds that did good for the less skillfull handlers. I'm figuring if the bird did good for a guy who really isn't treating the birds the way the need to be treated to compete week in a week out and one of these birds did good multiple times for them I want that bird since I'm thinking with my skills that bird could've been somthing really special. And their babies can be somthing special as well. And it's worked out for me the past few years I've bought 4 birds from that auction and 3 have raised me diploma winners and the other was only bought in November so I'll see how his babies turn out when young bird season comes.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Pigeon's optimum health seems to be the first 3 years of its life so it stands to reason that is the best time to breed them. After that their health may not be that good or in optimum. You may wish to ponder also that wild pigeons seem to have an average lifetime of 5 years in the wild. Also back in time when people raise utility pigeons for meat they have observed that the maximum is around 6 years old. After that their production goes down. My own conclusion is that it may have something to do with health issues.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

RodSD said:


> Pigeon's optimum health seems to be the first 3 years of its life so it stands to reason that is the best time to breed them. After that their health may not be that good or in optimum. You may wish to ponder also that wild pigeons seem to have an average lifetime of 5 years in the wild. Also back in time when people raise utility pigeons for meat they have observed that the maximum is around 6 years old. After that their production goes down. My own conclusion is that it may have something to do with health issues.


Some birds though reach full mature age at 3. Depends on family line. And a 3 year old is prime for old bird racing. It is in its prime. Utily bred birds were pushed for squabs So 6 years woud be a replacment time. In the wild pigeons have more a threat. hawks weather/shelter. and health bad food bad water. So 3 to 5 years is a harder life. In the loft they live much longer. Not over bred they can breed for several years. Some are not evn put in the breeding loft until 3 to 5 years old.. If a bird has a few years on it and comes from a good loft It can be a help. Race record spaeks for race birds breeding record speaks for buying breeders. Has the breeding Good clock birds ect. . bird bred winners bred Highly inbred birds well expect them not to fertile as long say 4 to 6 years. of age. Far as cost. like any thing else what a person pays is the cost. When people are say so demanding they will pay super bucks They drive prices up. A decent bird should still bill a thousand and less. Many a good bird can be bought for 100 to 300 dollars. But people with money sure do pay with that money. The old saying the more you make the more you spend.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

klondike goldie said:


> I think when someone has an older bird for sale, they aren't selling it because it produced so many winners, usually they are selling it because it didn't produce any winners. Who would sell a bird that produced winners? nobody, but they might sell youngsters off of it. How many times have you heard of big name pigeon guys selling youngsters, then when the youngster turns out to be a champion flyer or proven breeder they try to buy it back for ten times what they sold it for. If they had known it would turn out that good they would have never sold it. I think it's best to get young unproven birds off of birds with lots of winners in their background.


 Sounds like the current ADL auction.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

klondike goldie said:


> I think when someone has an older bird for sale, they aren't selling it because it produced so many winners, usually they are selling it because it didn't produce any winners. Who would sell a bird that produced winners? nobody, but they might sell youngsters off of it. How many times have you heard of big name pigeon guys selling youngsters, then when the youngster turns out to be a champion flyer or proven breeder they try to buy it back for ten times what they sold it for. If they had known it would turn out that good they would have never sold it. I think it's best to get young unproven birds off of birds with lots of winners in their background.


If a person does not sell off certion birds THOSE that have produced winners But they have bred and produced better then that person does not stay with a solid program and fall down the charts. How else can one explain how those certion birds have been bought. because the owner did Now have better and equal to. Its best to remove even your past best to make way for the future. With exception of the REAL prpotent key bird Which is very rare in many a loft..


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I agree with your friend about buying unproven youngsters versus a 3-4 year old that's up for sale. At 3-4 years old the bird is at it's prime and if it's up for sale then it probably wasn't good enough to keep in the breeding loft.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I agree with your friend about buying unproven youngsters versus a 3-4 year old that's up for sale. At 3-4 years old the bird is at it's prime and if it's up for sale then it probably wasn't good enough to keep in the breeding loft.


I was thinking that too when he mentioned it. When I see a bird on the auction that is three to five years old, I immediately think that it couldn't earn it's feed and is up for sale.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

However, there is a 3 year old cock bird on iPigeon right now that I would not hesitate in placing a bid on if I was looking to buy birds. Looks nice, comes from a good loft, just my type of pigeon.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> I was thinking that too when he mentioned it. When I see a bird on the auction that is three to five years old, I immediately think that it couldn't earn it's feed and is up for sale.


That's what a cautious buyer does and I think it's a good thing. 



Matt Bell said:


> However, there is a 3 year old cock bird on iPigeon right now that I would not hesitate in placing a bid on if I was looking to buy birds. Looks nice, comes from a good loft, just my type of pigeon.


When you have a certain feeling about a particular bird then you go with the flow! You might get lucky, but that percentage of it being just an average bird is very likely when they're up for sale at that age.


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## High Flier (Jan 19, 2011)

klondike goldie said:


> what does that mean?


I was thinking the same too.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

correct me if I'm wrong here, But I don't think just because a 3-4 year old bird is for sale means he didn't get it done, 
and very well could still be better than the best bird in many lofts in a different loft or combine.


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## warpaint (Dec 10, 2008)

I think an older bird in this case being sold on auction that comes from a very good line is being sold for its lineage as compared to is prepotnency. I mean think about it clearly, yes some people may have not had good luck with the bird and is reselling it, but honestly, do you think that the person didn't have bred it to everything it had in thier loft first before putting it up for sale. I mean its not like they bought the bird and bred it to their best bird they had in the loft and produced duds and then just selling it. I know if had a bird and bred it to my best and the offsprings were duds, i'd breed it to the next in bird line from the loft and so on to see if it does produce something of worthy. I can assure you, that you can get better birds from people you meet on forums or from visiting flyers who have good birds them selves vs buying one on auction and you would be paying less than an auction bird, it might even be free. 

Now concerning on buying a young bird vs the older supposively breeder, the young bird has more than a better shot being that it came from good lineage and yet un proven. You got the whole ball park to play with on this one and the breeder wouldn't even know if its gonna be a dud or superstar. The young bird can turn out to be superflier and breeder, can be a dud at flying but champ a breeding. You get the idea. My choice would be the young bird any day over and old bird especially if its on an *auction* site. Otherwise for example, if I was good friends with or knew lets say Smith family loft, I would go to his loft and ask for an older proven breeder and an unproven offspring, more than likely he wouldn't sell the breeder but the young. MY point is that if people won't sell a breeder in person, what do you think they will sell on auction sites. This is my input and not to offend smith family loft, but was using him as an example as he is known on the forum.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

klondike goldie said:


> what does that mean?


Let's not forget, Jim Gabler is a pigeon merchant, just like Mike Ganus, but on a lesser scale. For the past month or so, he flooded the auction site with youngsters off the Aristona, Hekkenklak, Smokin Joe, Campbell, Blue Lady, and Avenger families of birds. He's even repurchased some old breeders to resell. If you take a look at his pedigrees, all he is doing is "stacking" the genetic pools in the birds. Most people who only pay attention to big names will be drawn to the flashy names. There are only a few birds that look like they've been bred soundly. If the geneticists can agree or disagree, that a hen's productive value is more when she is bred lightly. From all the band numbers, it looks like the hens are put into overtime work. The quality of the eggs could affect the quality of the young. But hey, it's roughly $300 for "unproven" stock right?


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

Please forgive my ignorance Kal.... but can you please explain the proper method of breeding that does'nt involve stacking the pedigree with birds that have a record of breeding winners.
Yes , I have an iron in the fire I bought that son of the 2004 Barcelona winner for $275.
I did'nt buy this birds with hopes and dreams of founding my loft with it, I have a good hen that I wanted to mate with some distance blood to see what her babies will do when she is mated to some distance blood. Rather than go to my buddy and borrow a Sion or Gurnay I saw this cock and said to myself " His sire beat 24,914 pigeons at 1000km... I think I'll try him for $275"
Nothing at all wrong with Sions and Gurnays.. IMO this bird was a good buy for me at that price.
Yeah It's a gamble but so is getting in my car every morning to go to work.
Thanks
Tom


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't want to sound like I know genetics, pedigree stacking is not a bad way to go about breeding a good bird. I just feel it's not as sound as breeding birds based on the fact that 1) the importance of the hen's side of the mating; she provides vitality and health, 2) males can pass their sex genes to their daughters and sons, while females can pass her sex genes only to her sons, and 3) the importances of dominant and recessive genes and the color of the young compared to the best bird in the pedigree. Probably the best way is to have DNA testing.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

klondike goldie said:


> you got any proven breeders you want to get rid of? Birds that breed more than their share of winners?


I no longer keep pigeons. Health says NO. But lok at it this way. In your own loft are you still breeding from the same breeder birds You had 5 ,10 years ago. If so how can you go forward. As birds should be replaced. Sure certion birds are key family line birds And are worked around for a few years then removed. But to keep all the breeder birds means the same level of performance. And if you have not raised as good or better in those years Then you are not moving your loft to the level you expect. I may not have any more birds But I still have a lifetime Of what I did learn Keeping and raising pigeons is a hobby that Become a art of breeding, testing and selecting. The other part is where several sell birds that they know they would never use And expect people to buy them. Those people are not bettering the hobby they are using the hobby. But people do sell good birds. And people do give away good birds. Just have to deal with the right people And not the Money grabbers.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> Let's not forget, Jim Gabler is a pigeon merchant, just like Mike Ganus, but on a lesser scale. For the past month or so, he flooded the auction site with youngsters off the Aristona, Hekkenklak, Smokin Joe, Campbell, Blue Lady, and Avenger families of birds. He's even repurchased some old breeders to resell. If you take a look at his pedigrees, all he is doing is "stacking" the genetic pools in the birds. Most people who only pay attention to big names will be drawn to the flashy names. There are only a few birds that look like they've been bred soundly. If the geneticists can agree or disagree, that a hen's productive value is more when she is bred lightly. From all the band numbers, it looks like the hens are put into overtime work. The quality of the eggs could affect the quality of the young. But hey, it's roughly $300 for "unproven" stock right?


I have found that the birds with stacked pedigrees take work like all the rest, to find which birds they work with. My Ikon/Magic Star grandson finally hit this year. Took a few years to find what he worked with. Many of these birds are mixtures from the greats. Does not mean they will work right out of the gate. Birds from a proven family seem to work better for me. You know more what you are getting. Would rather have my box of chocolates all stocked with turtles, instead of not knowing what I was getting.


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## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

I am really enjoying the views posted in this thread and am just sucking it up like a sponge. I must admit what re lee said quote( Keeping and raising pigeons is a hobby that becomes an art of breeding, testing, and selecting). unquote. is one of the best statements I have ever heard about pigeon keeping. Thank you...

Hank


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Whether you buy young birds or old should depend on what you intend to do with that bird. Sometimes a bird may not be a good breeder of racers, but they can breed good breeders. Someone may discard a bird for producing average flyers. I would not hesitate to buy that bird if it had a good background. Maybe what those birds have will be what you need to make yours better. I know a lot of bad birds get recycled. But, there are good old birds being sold as well. The percentage is the same whether you buy young or old. The sucess or failure of a buyer may very well be because of their own buying habits, or, their thinking process and evaluation prior to making a purchase.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Lots of interesting point, loveddd it!!!!!I got a question for guys out there if you are succesfull loft wins a lot of club races and willing to upgrade the bloodlines which one would you rather buy a proven bet-up old bird or the untested young inbreeds but from a proven one or two genaration of champs, somehow this the point that most of us make a mistake... I know at my point that 5 years and older I consider outdated blood specially flying with this oneloft races..


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> On a pigeon from a performance background? Most of the pigeons I see on the auctions are listed between $100-$300. Is that considered decent market value for birds between one and ten years old?
> 
> Also, what does it say when a bird that is only three or four years old is posted? Does that lend to the notion the bird was not productive? It would seem to add to that notion when you see older birds (especially cocks) are sold and fetch a considerable amount of money. For example, a friend of mine was bidding on a direct son of Super Secret of Van Loon fame about a year ago. Even though that bird was around eight years old, the ending amount was around $850.
> 
> ...


 I think your question is a good and reasonable one, but from all the answers provided, I don't think a newer fancier would know any better of what is "reasonable" after reading all of the responses provided. 

My economics professor at college would have suggested that the market would determine what a "reasonable price" would be. PiPa is a world class auction house, so you can see what fanciers around the world have determined what is a reasonable price to pay. You can review a few hundred of these types of transactions, and get a better idea of what the market thinks of birds at this level.

http://www.pipa.be/en/pigeons-for-sale/online-auctions

It is after all, what people actually do with their money, that provides some idea of what the market actually is. If someone suggests that they are a better judge of value then what the market is, well then they can attempt to trade their way to a better collection, as that is exactly what some fanciers attempt to do.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bloodlines_365 said:


> Lots of interesting point, loveddd it!!!!!I got a question for guys out there if you are succesfull loft wins a lot of club races and willing to upgrade the bloodlines which one would you rather buy a proven bet-up old bird or the *untested young inbreeds *but from a proven one or two genaration of champs, somehow this the point that most of us make a mistake...* I know at my point that 5 years and older I consider outdated blood specially flying with this oneloft races*..



A very sucessful fancier in our combine who has won some money in the One Loft events, does not even move birds into his breeding loft until they are about 5 years old, as that would be the end of their racing career and the start of their breeding career. 

I don't know of any sucessful fancier, that would get rid of a proven breeder in order to make room for some inbred YB that has not been raced. If one wishes to upgrade their bloodlines, then IMHO, they should go and acquire top notch breeders which have already produced some outstanding birds, and the 2nd choice would be to acquire some very sucessful racers at the end of their racering career, and hope they will also be good breeders. Purchasing offspring off of sucessful racers, would be the 3rd choice, and IMHO would be the most risky. It appeals to many because it is the cheapest, as it is like buying a lottery ticket. Buy a dozen of them and you might get one that works, but by then you will have invested nearly the same amount as the proven racer. It simply comes down to how lucky you feel I guess.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

PIPA while being a world class auction site. Can not set the standard for racing pigeon worth. As where is the mecca of racing pigeons. Belgium and the netherlands.. And those breeders While having good birds. You must look at the bidders. MONEY is what buys the birds. the average JOE will not and can not pay some of those prices. AND the unheard of lofts that do not promote sell birds a person can still get a great deal. NOW USA who from belgium and the netherlands. Bothers to resaerch and purchase U S birds NOT many if any. SO the U S market can not use a market as pipa in selling the birds. While we see the gobal results THE same birds raced here aginst the birds here One would find different results. As look at one loft races where those birds from other countries are enterd And they do NO better. Should a race pigeon be worth To be fare say more then 2500 dollars NO not really. A race pigeon is not a horse That only produces 1 foal a year or 2. Pigeons are a hobby for all levels of peopl;e. The rich well they can and do pay more. But if you can get the same results paying less you are going to do that. Any time you buy a name or a fad. AND there sure is a lot of fads in racing pigeons. The winner today is the fad tomorrow. Those people over seas get a laugh. THEY breed there birds they select there birds sure they buy here and there. But they spent countless years working up the ladder. THAT is what it take the time to do it right. Anybody can buy a winner how many raise winners. LUDO was talked of He found a bird that came to his house THAT bird bred him many a good bird that bird was a FREE bird not some 500000 dollar bird. Its not the cost of the bird it the quality of the bird. . I still say 300 to 1000 dollar is a good fare price for a good racing pigeon. NOT some pretty paper with a bird included. AND There are people out there that will sell those birds. BUT we must remember just a hand full of lofts have great ones And they can only supply a certion amount so it takes time. TIME is all we have one earth any way. START here go there That how you get someplace. And enjoy the hobby Buy slow move slow and breed right you will move forward. Buy fast move fast you will fall down I just want to say not being negitive The hobby should pull together as a hobby And compete as a hobby Enter races that one can afford and enjoy everones advancement No one can have all the best and evryone can there good birds Just some will allawys have better. But the goal is the same Its a hobby that you find rewarding to you and for some there whole family That is all that matters. Not my bird cost more then yours.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> PIPA while being a world class auction site. Can not set the standard for racing pigeon worth............


 PiPa does not set prices, and PiPa does not set standards of what a pigeon is worth. The buyers determine what the prices should be....as does a free market in any other item. 

If I go to sell my home, my Real Estate agent does not set the price, nor does my real estate company set the standard for what a home should be worth. The market determines what the value of my home should be, and the same kind of market forces determine what the value of my used car is, as does just about everything my wife buys at the supermarket. 

Concepts of different things such as price, cost, value, quality, etc can seem overwhelming at times, but I will stand by my original statements that it is pretty much impossible for one to state what is a "reasonable or fair price" for what one might call a "good" pigeon. Since no two are exactly the same, and every one is different. 

The subject matter of this thread was what is reasonable ? And that will depend on what people are willing to pay. One might insist that a house is only worth a $1000 cause that is all he ever paid for one, and that is all he has, but one's preconceived ideas may have little or no bearing on the reality of the market place. By studying previous recent sales, one can gain a good idea as to what certain items are selling for. 

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/01/18/3115352.htm?site=sydney

and....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d308110bda1e5d3,0


As an example, some well meaning old timer may think that a good candy bar should still sell for a nickel, because they did back in his day, but a quick trip to a couple of super markets or candy stores, and the market reality may be far different from what the ole timer thinks is "fair" or "reasonable". I know I am guilty of not being "with it" when it comes to teenage labor and snow shoveling. When I was a kid, an hour of hard, back breaking snow shoveling might bring .40 cents. So, when three kids spent 15 minutes shoveling my sidewalks I thought my offer of $20 was being very generous....the three kids thought that $60 was a more "fair" and "reasonable" price. Now, you and I and all of our readers can say that $20 was reasonable....but if I wanted that snow off my sidewalks, and there were no other offers available...then $60 is what I needed to shell out if I wanted the service.

So, if you find a bird you really like, and you want to own it, then I would not be all that concerned with what others feel is "reasonable" based on their financial circumstances or limitations. Go, ahead and treat yourself and buy what it is that you want and can afford. The reality is, that for some pigeons $100 may be too much, and for others....$100,000 could be a steal. If you find yourself wringing your hands, and fretting about it, then the odds are, you simply can't afford it, and it has little to do with what might be fair, and what might be reasonable.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I know that warren. But using pipa as a stanadard for what good birds are selling for Is not that away eather. What people pay is what they can afford. And the more money a person has the more they can spend. I believe pigeons were never meant to be some high priced hobby.. They were meant for personal enjoyment. And i have known people that morgtaged there home and boutgh some rather high dollar birds with that money. But they thought also they would recoup there money selling off young birds. Some did some did not. . Anbd I have seen some cheap birds win aginst the high dollar birds. IT is after all the bird in hand, Bird, loft, training, and then results that day that time. I have seen people that just could not believe some cheap bird just beat theres And they just had to buy that bird As the person had to be lieing Because some cheap bird just could not have beat theres. Makes you laugh because you know the truth. But hey the person wants to pay let them. I am glad that some people do go and buy very good bird birds and race and sell off spring off them. Because of those people others can get some better birds. Just some sell not so good bird for to much and some sell good bird for a fare cost. If this the U S A was like belgium and the netherlands Then yes perhaps some of those bird minght just be worth that price. But remember those other guys over there that raced for many years and do ok. But do not advertise and sell much cheaper But just as good of birds.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

re lee said:


> Anbd I have seen some cheap birds win aginst the high dollar birds. IT is after all the bird in hand, Bird, loft, training, and then results that day that time. I have seen people that just could not believe some cheap bird just beat theres And they just had to buy that bird As the person had to be lieing Because some cheap bird just could not have beat theres. Makes you laugh because you know the truth.


Like my ITFA winner from last season I put him in the auction for that race as a young bird and bought him back for the opening bid of $25. Mean while many birds were sold for more then $300 just to fly them in a race. Well when my $25 guy won some ppl couldn't see how my cheap piece of crap won the race. LoL


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> So, if you find a bird you really like, and you want to own it, then I would not be all that concerned with what others feel is "reasonable" based on their financial circumstances or limitations. Go, ahead and treat yourself and buy what it is that you want and can afford. The reality is, that for some pigeons $100 may be too much, and for others....$100,000 could be a steal. If you find yourself wringing your hands, and fretting about it, then the odds are, you simply can't afford it, and it has little to do with what might be fair, and what might be reasonable.


Yes If a person finds a bird they like AND can afford it they should get it. But 1000,000 is rather high for any pigeon EVER and some have beeen sold higher. NOW how birds in your loft cost that much.. And what people are fooling there self with. They are paying that high price and still not getting the key. It takes a cock and hen to produce. Buying just this 1 bird and not its mate you may not have the right bird to use on thet high dollar bird. But the loft it was bought from. Does and has those bird bred off that bird to keeep goning. Or it would not of sold. Agin This is not about money Or past prices of candy bars. Its about a fare price not a bidding war of the rich. To compet at the different level you have to have the birds to do it. To compet in a small club You neeed only certion birds. To compet in a smal combine the same will work Then larger clubs larger combines You need somewhat better birds. Then 1 loft race you can use many of those same birds and a few even better. . Its all the years in the hobby trying to move forward. Just like you. You have been back in the hobby how long near 10 years. Also you allways talk of a loft manager. Most manage there own loft. But still 10 years You have had some good results. BUT no where the man to beat. 10 more years hopefully you have had even better results. That 20 years back in the hobby. It just is not done very fast. even by buying those high dollar birds. Its by raising those birds and knowing which to keep which to just fly wich to use in the breeding loft which to remove. that the hobby part that makes iut fun and rewarding knowing you did something right or improved this year. Make great friends. Learn something about pigeons That most people would never even consider thinking about. I would say in the past 60 years The Janssen brothers have done more to advance the modern racing pigeon then most have. There birds have gone all over the world crossed well with many lines. Improved others lofts that have gone on and took that person name as to strain line. Or bird name line. AND they got a bird KEPT in a rabbit hutch That they felt was a good bird. A hidden treasure. It being able to reconize that certion bird. That prepotent bird that can advance a loft. And its not that dollar sighn. Its the bird. I bet we have right here in the U S A some very very good birds that have never been found out because those people just race them where they live. And remember this is a large country. Could be the long distance capital of the racing world If brought together And that what the Chinese want good distance birds. I just see a pigeon for what it is. A good hobby. Never thought much about how much I could get out of it.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I've seen where the birds from the Convention One Loft Race and the WOW birds are on the auction site and they have trouble bringing $50. Next year I'm going to try some, you can tell from the bands that they are from some really good lofts and you could assume well bred. Is this a bad idea?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

raftree3 said:


> I've seen where the birds from the Convention One Loft Race and the WOW birds are on the auction site and they have trouble bringing $50. Next year I'm going to try some, you can tell from the bands that they are from some really good lofts and you could assume well bred. Is this a bad idea?


With these birds you can go to the web site and see what possition the bird trapt in. And you should be able to find out who bred the bird.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> I know that warren. *But using pipa as a stanadard for what good birds are selling for Is not that away eather. *What people pay is what they can afford. And the more money a person has the more they can spend.* I believe pigeons were never meant to be some high priced hobby.. *They were meant for personal enjoyment. And i have known people that morgtaged there home and boutgh some rather high dollar birds with that money. But they thought also they would recoup there money selling off young birds. Some did some did not. . Anbd I have seen some cheap birds win aginst the high dollar birds. IT is after all the bird in hand, Bird, loft, training, and then results that day that time. I have seen people that just could not believe some cheap bird just beat theres And they just had to buy that bird As the person had to be lieing Because some cheap bird just could not have beat theres. *Makes you laugh because you know the truth.* But hey the person wants to pay let them. I am glad that some people do go and buy very good bird birds and race and sell off spring off them. Because of those people others can get some better birds. Just some sell not so good bird for to much and some sell good bird for a fare cost. If this the U S A was like belgium and the netherlands Then yes perhaps some of those bird minght just be worth that price. But remember those other guys over there that raced for many years and do ok. But do not advertise and sell much cheaper But just as good of birds.


I guess I will just have to agree to disagree, if some want a simple and inexpensive back yard hobby that is fine. If some folks like Gerard Koopman want to follow their passion and make it more then a hobby, I say that is great to. 

What is a reasonable price for say a Gerard Koopman pigeon ? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVaN6x2fK_Q&feature=player_embedded#!

There is still time to get your bid in at the PiPa auction, as this weekend it ends !!

http://www.pipa.be/toppigeons/toppigeon.php?id=91353


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I guess I will just have to agree to disagree, if some want a simple and inexpensive back yard hobby that is fine. If some folks like Gerard Koopman want to follow their passion and make it more then a hobby, I say that is great to.
> 
> What is a reasonable price for say a Gerard Koopman pigeon ?
> 
> ...


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

They are expensive because it is a business expense. They race for money/profit. That goes for China, Taiwan, etc. If you are racing for diploma or papers only, then maybe you don't need to spend $60,000. There is a hobby and there is a sport. Each has different goals and motivations. So the price reflects it.

I think Koopman is doing this for a living when he quit his job.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> http://www.pipa.be/toppigeons/toppigeon.php?id=91353[/*QUOIf a person You WIN you like to brag about how much birds cost how much better yours are then anbody elses* So I guess every one If you can not pay at least 50,000 dollars a bird you better get out of this hobby and make room for the one who can. *Because they do not like being beat by just some plain old 100 dollar birds.* Much less any of those free birds given to people.


Hello again Robert, 

I am not sure because of spelling, English composition, or thought process, what exactly it is you are trying to say ? I would like to make clear, I have never advocated every reader of these posts, regardless of personal circumstances, must invest some large portion of their disposable income or perhaps even take out a 2nd mortgage on their personal residence, as you previously mentioned some have done, in order to enjoy a very simple and enjoyable back yard hobby. 

I have authored articles where I openly confessed that I started as a hobby, with very inexpensive pigeons purchased at a farmers market, and whatever Lady Luck brought in from nearby fields. Thus, I have said that one can go real cheap, and still enjoy having some pigeons in the back yard. They don't need bands, they don't need pedigrees, they can even be wild or feral pigeons. One can enjoy owning pigeons very inexpensively. 

Now, having said that, please understand that racing pigeons are competing increasingly in Worldwide Competition. You and I were brought up playing with our homing pigeons or "racing" with a few area buddies in our own neighborhoods. More often then not, vast majority of fliers would compete with just a few dozen or fewer fliers in their local clubs. The world today is a totally different environment, then when you had pigeons and were competing in your local club. Today's International breeding competition is something you may not be familiar with, or comfortable with. One can still continue to enjoy racing with a local club, with free or very inexpensive pigeons. So if you, or some of our readers misunderstood that point, then please understand, you can join your local club and have fun, and win races with free or inexpensive pigeons. Somehow, you and others may have misunderstood that point. I am sure that there are many clubs throughout America, where one may not need to spend much money at all, and still win races where one is flying against other fliers who have spent very little money. 

My point is, that International Racing, and National Racing, are not some futurist idea, it is happening now. If a breeder wants to ship pigeons to China, Europe, South Africa, Taiwan, or even America, to participate in a One Loft event, in this Internationally growing sport, they can do so. The better breeders with International recognition and respect, can command six and seven figures for their colonies of birds. These types of pigeons are typically referred to as World Class. 

World Class quality of anything almost, means it is a game for well to do players. Golf, football, baseball, horse racing, boxing, you name it. Only the so called "Rich" can own the best of something, unless of course, there are some unusual circumstance. I am not attempting to defend these circumstances, but just stating that this sport has gone more mainstream. http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/01/18/3115352.htm?site=sydney

Good, Bad, or Indifferent, most breeders who "invest" thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars, EURO, etc. into One Loft or Auction type race entry fees and associated expenses, may not take issue with "investing" additional thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands into racers and or breeders, which they feel will help them advance in their sport. 

I think the same is true with race horses, which is more closely aligned with what we do, even managing a herd of milk cows or sheep is somewhat related and germane to the discussion. Not sure if you have checked up on what kinds of prices are "invested" in the most prized race horses, or stud bulls or even Champion Rams, but here also "rich" farmers or owners seem to own the better flocks, herds, colonies etc.

It may not be fair, and perhaps you may not like the changes which have occurred over the years, but some of the best specimens of racers or breeders in the world, are actually quite rare. The better they are, then the more rare they typically are. To suggest to the starting fancier that these extraordinary racers or breeders are easily available to the starting fancier at very inexpensive prices or free, is really being a bit disingenuous in my opinion.

One can disagree with me if you like, but if one is going to attempt to put together a world classs collection of racing pigeons, capable of winning say a National One Loft Race, it helps IMHO, if you are in a position to buy some better stock then I started with from the Roots Farmers market in 1965. Or to rely on the "freebies" like I had to when I was a Jr. member. If one is such a great handler or breeder, that they can achieve great results starting with very typical or average stock, then the odds are, you are a much better fancier then me, and dont need my two cents anyway.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Something I have been noticing is that over the few years that I have gotten back into the sport is that the pedigrees of the best fliers in the world have gone a generation or two further from their greats the we knew. They have newer great birds. For instance my Engels bird has Den 31 in the pedigree twice. Engels is still winning races, just with birds that don't even have the bird on the pedigrees. Still in the foundation but gone off the sheet. 019 is starting to flow off the pedigrees etc. My point is that as long as you stick with a line bred family that you might not have to spend the 10K to get a son of Klein Dirk. Lets say you could pick up a grand son or great grandson for 300 or so. I see birds on Pipa auctions go for reasonable prices down form good sound bird. You never know you might just get the next golden breeder of the family a few generations removed. You can get the same stuff these guys are entering into the National races. I think as Americans we value a bird as closer to the greats as more valuable. These guys are breeding out of good birds to find the next great pigeon always striving to be better. We are chasing paper. 
My point is that I can take say 1000 bucks and hit the top 5 guys in the club and come away with birds that could compete at any level. They may not be Children or Grand Children of the greats, but they will still be in the same families of those birds. Koopmans, Vandenebeeles, Thone's, Engels, Sangers, etc. There are good birds to be had for reasonable amounts. Sometimes education is worth as much as the money. Take your top 10 high points birds from your club. Buy a sibling off those birds, and I would bet out of the 10 birds you would be in the top of the club, and if they club is highly competitive you could fair well in the one loft races also. More time than not the sibling make better breeders.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If I were to to that in my club, it is more than likely that the 10 birds would have highly recognizable pedigrees with birds from international winners and big one-loft winners. You may even find a few mutts. Chances are the guys in your club might just have the best birds that you can find anywhere. My 330 was second high points yb in 09. He is bred right now to the first high points bird same year. Her pedigree is quite impressive I am sure and off some expensive birds. Need to ask for a young bird off him being as its a partner bird. There are other ways to acquire good stock.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello again Robert,
> 
> I am not sure because of spelling, English composition, or thought process, what exactly it is you are trying to say ? I would like to make clear, I have never advocated every reader of these posts, regardless of personal circumstances, must invest some large portion of their disposable income or perhaps even take out a 2nd mortgage on their personal residence, as you previously mentioned some have done, in order to enjoy a very simple and enjoyable back yard hobby.
> 
> ...


I am not some hick in the hills that just knows a pigeon has feathers. You know I have allways said start with the best birds you can get. But I will never believe a pigeon should be worth some of the prices you see today. And I have had what you like to call world class birds BUT my head never got big And I sure gave away some good birds because I liked helping the hobby not profiting from it. You Win though as allways. This is my last post Hope Your happy agin Warren the top dog.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> If I were to to that in my club, *it is more than likely that the 10 birds would have highly recognizable pedigrees with birds from international winners and big one-loft winners.* You may even find a few mutts. Chances are the guys in your club might just have the best birds that you can find anywhere. My 330 was second high points yb in 09. He is bred right now to the first high points bird same year. *Her pedigree is quite impressive I am sure and off some expensive birds.* Need to ask for a young bird off him being as its a partner bird. There are other ways to acquire good stock.



Many a great breeder has said pretty much the same thing.....that the good fruit does not fall far from the tree.

I recently visited the loft of our Combine's Old and YB Average Speed & Champion Loft Winner. He has won these awards numerous times, as well as picking up a few bucks now and then at some One Loft events. Most of his breeders had won numerous awards, and I am not talking about club diplomas, but rather IF Champions and American Aces in the bunch. Many had won many numerous Combine races, as an example I remember a cock bird which had over a dozen 500 mile on the day diplomas, and numerous 1st place wins at that distance. Did he breed these pigeons off of barn pigeons or from birds ontained from a Farmer's Market ? Were they all freebies from well meaning fanciers who were culling their colonies ? NO ! They were almost without exception, down from great race winners out of Europe. In other words, he invested a considerable sum over the years from folks like Mike Ganus. 

So one can befriend a person such as this, and perhaps he will give a friend a bird, or provide some new person with some YB's to help them out. Maybe he will even sell some of the offspring at very reasonable prices. So maybe a person on a very limited budget can get a jump start because of the charity from someone like this. Because, in my experience, good birds rarely come out of junk. When you find a loft where great birds are being bred out of turn, typically, someone took the time, money, and effort to acquire better then average stock. In this case, this Combine Champion has invested a considerable sum over the years, and it is apparent in his breeding loft. 

In our combine, the best example occurred back in the 1980's when Fred Smeltzer of "720" fame, obtained some new fangled line of pigeons which were called "Janssen's" from brothers over in Europe. I am sure at the time, that folks were saying at the time, "No pigeons are worth $500" ...because at the time, according to my eye witnesses, most combine members thought spending that kind of money was "crazy" since there were many inexpensive and even free pigeons available. Of course, those new birds turned many Combines in the USA upside down, and in this case, the best birds were not already within the combines, but were imported by Mike Ganus from the Janssen Brothers.

Of course, I guess I should warn folks, that if you do go out and invest funds to acquire some good stock, like these fanciers did, be prepared to suffer criticism. There are fanciers out there, who are envious of others who own things they don't have. And in the case of these local fanciers who did well with these better birds, they were forced to endure all kinds of grief and personal attacks. Like the famous Mike Ganus quote, "Nobody Likes a Winner" is unfortunately all to true.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Chromie said:


> correct me if I'm wrong here, But I don't think just because a 3-4 year old bird is for sale means he didn't get it done,
> and very well could still be better than the best bird in many lofts in a different loft or combine.


You're right about maybe being the best bird in someone else's loft or combine but it's pretty certain that it wasn't one of the best at the loft that's selling it for a few hundred dollars. This is why it's important to know your birds and what you might need to improve and how far can that new investment take you. IMO


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