# Bayer's Baytril vs. generic Enrofloxacin for pigeons



## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi all. From what I've read on this forum as well as Melbournevet, the recommended treatment time for salmonella using Enrofloxacin is 10-14 days. However according to Bayer's Baytril instruction, the medicine should be used for 3-5 days only. I am wondering if there's something particular about Bayer's Baytril that makes the recommended treatment time shortens so much, and whether it's better to use it or the ones made for pigeons. I would appreciate if you could share your knowledge on this matter. Thanks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howl, where did you find the advice for 3 to 5 days? Giving either would be the same med, and usually treatment is for 10 days just like other antibiotics. However for salmonella, they used to say 2 weeks to cure the carrier stage. Then they realized that 2 weeks didn't always do it, and changed it to 3 weeks to get rid of the carrier stage of salmonella. If not treated for long enough, the symptoms may leave, but the bird still carries it and can shed it off and on (called the carrier stage), and can that way infect other pigeons.
Also, while on Baytril or any other Enrofloxacin or antibiotic, they may likely get a yeast infection, so treating with Nystatin or similar is a very good idea, while treating with the antibiotic. Baytril is known for causing that.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Howl, where did you find the advice for 3 to 5 days? Giving either would be the same med, and usually treatment is for 10 days just like other antibiotics. However for salmonella, they used to say 2 weeks to cure the carrier stage. Then they realized that 2 weeks didn't always do it, and changed it to 3 weeks to get rid of the carrier stage of salmonella. If not treated for long enough, the symptoms may leave, but the bird still carries it and can shed it off and on (called the carrier stage), and can that way infect other pigeons.
> Also, while on Baytril or any other Enrofloxacin or antibiotic, they may likely get a yeast infection, so treating with Nystatin or similar is a very good idea, while treating with the antibiotic. Baytril is known for causing that.


Hi Jay3, thanks for replying, I am really baffled by this. The statement that Bayer's Baytril should be given for 3-5 days is by Bayer itself, I found that on the official Vietnamese website of Baytril. You can also read it here, at the end of the page:
https://www.baytril.com/en/farm-animals/product/oral/

Info from some reseller websites that are consistent with what I've found on the Vietnamese website:
http://www.glovet.com/our-products/bayer/baytril-10-oral-solution/
https://www.petmed360.com/products/baytril-10-oral-solution-broad-spectrum-antibiotic

Bayer is a major manufacturer of animal farm drugs it would be a surprise if they provide a wrong instruction of their own products. But because it contradicts every other sources I know in this matter, I am wondering if it's different from other pigeon meds somehow, and if it would be too harsh for a pigeon to be given it for more than 5 days as instructed.

About Nystatin, do you think it's ok to give it in drinking water considering that it's pretty safe, and that by giving in water the medicine is in the crop for longer time?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howl, I don't know about that info you are finding. But I even read on one of them that for salmonella, to give it for 5 days. That's crazy. Formularies for pigeons will say 10 days. That is what works, and longer for salmonella. Maybe they are older info. People used to give it in 2 doses daily also, but then Bayer said that it works better in 1 whole dose daily, because it works in a different way then many other antibiotics, but you still see many sights that still say twice daily. So I'm not going to even try to explain the different info. And Enro is Enro, regardless of the brand.

As far as giving the Medistatin in the water, when you do it that way, you can't be sure of how much the bird got. Unless treating a flock, you are better to treat individually and know how much the bird actually got.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you Jay3, I will go with the 2-3 week duration then if my birds need treatment.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you sure it is salmonella?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I was asking just to be prepared. I cannot know for sure what they have without doing fecal culture, but I think if I am giving them Baytril anyway, it's better to add those extra days just in case.

My birds sometimes have dark, green, usually firm droppings for 5-7 days, during which they will eat about 20% less feed than usual. I give them probiotics and ACV and the color will shift toward brown, but after 5-10 days they become green again. I don't want treat them blindly but it looks like the situation can get worse any time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can't go by the droppings. They can change often from many things other than illness. If they were sick with salmonella, they would get very ill. It's not a good idea to medicate unless you know they need the med. Otherwise you are just weakening their immune system and causing the bacteria to build a resistance to the drug. Only medicate when really needed.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> If they were sick with salmonella, they would get very ill.


Thank you for this piece of info, I did not know it. Usually websites on pigeon diseases only list the signs, not their severity. 

As for medication, I will also look out for their behavior changes, not just relying on bad droppings. Right now they are eating a bit less than usual and looking a bit unkempt but unless their condition get worse or prolonged, I will not medicate them. Though honestly I am nervous whether I do or not. On the one hand, many people say that birds hide their sickness very well and if they are visibly ill they are actually very ill already. On the other, I hate the idea of having to give them too many medicines at a time even without knowing what's making them ill.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can never go by the droppings alone, as that changes all the time. Rather it is in how they are eating and drinking, how they look, are acting, then the droppings.

It's true that they do try to appear okay even when sick, and by the time they are looking really sick, they are really sick. But in knowing your birds and watching them, it is pretty easy to see if they are acting off.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> You can never go by the droppings alone, as that changes all the time. Rather it is in how they are eating and drinking, how they look, are acting, then the droppings.


Yes that's what I meant in the previous posts, they are eating less than usual, one is staying in the nest more than she normally does and the other is looking unkempt. This has happened a few times recently, that's why I was asking about drug usage to be prepared.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, I understand. Was just saying that the droppings are the last of the things I would look at. I don't see where salmonella comes from. Why would they have salmonella when them being off could be so many things? Unless I had a good reason to believe it was salmonella, then I wouldn't treat for that length of time. Baytril is wide spectrum, which is good, but can also wreak havoc with their immunity and good gut bacteria, which often causes yest infections.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I got your point and am grateful that you told me that  I've tried reading about pigeon diseases from different sources and don't know why that particular info, that when they have salmonella they are very ill, escapes me. Usually people only talk about they are lethargic, fluffing up, eating less etc, and those symptoms can be present with any kind of sickness it's hard to guess what they have or are unlikely to have.

I read on some thread here that with non-specific symptoms you should try to treat only for canker first and use antibiotics only if they don't improve after a few days. Do you think it's a good approach? Is it common for canker to be the primary disease for pet pigeons (i.e not live in a crowded loft with new pigeons coming often)?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You would try to think of the most common things first. Those would be canker, cocci, worms. It can be other things of course, but with birds kept inside without interaction with other birds, that does narrow it down more. Yeast can be another one. Some things they do carry, and when stressed the levels will rise and cause illness. Some things are just in the environment. So look at the symptoms and see if it sounds like one of the more common ailments. Canker is pretty common. It can take more than a few days to see results when treated though. When you start any treatment, then you should finish it.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Canker is pretty common. It can take more than a few days to see results when treated though. When you start any treatment, then you should finish it.


Does not Dr Colin Walker say on his website that one sign a pigeon has canker is that it responds strongly to a canker med? In your experience, usually how long does it take to know if we are going the right direction? 

Could you please let me know the dosage of Ronidazole that you use? I looked for it on the internet but some people suggest 12.5 mg/kg body weight while some other use up to 25 mg for an average pigeon a day.

I have human Nystatin tablets 500.000 IU, do you think it can be used for the birds, quartered? Otherwise I have fluconazole for poultry but it's more rough on their system.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It can take several days for a med to start showing signs of working. All depends on the bird and the severity of the illness. I had to use it for 14 days once on a young bird with very stubborn canker to clear it.
I only use the Ronidazole for flock treatment, unless I add it to a treatment for a stubborn canker. I generally use Metronidazole which has worked very well for me. I use Metro at 50 mg for an adult, once daily for 10 days. If in a weeks time I see no improvement at all, then I will add another canker med to the treatment. That is if I know it is canker I am dealing with. Sometimes it can be stubborn and there are more stubborn strains out there now. If I feel that it may be something else along with the canker then I will add Baytril or something else to the treatment.

I don't think Nystatin tablets would work the same as the liquid. It has to touch the yeast to kill it. So giving the liquid in between feedings when the crop is empty, can coat the throat and crop. Then wait an hour or so to feed. Over here we use the liquid and it is 100,000iu in 1ml. We would give1/2 ml twice daily on an empty crop.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> It can take several days for a med to start showing signs of working. All depends on the bird and the severity of the illness. I had to use it for 14 days once on a young bird with very stubborn canker to clear it.
> I only use the Ronidazole for flock treatment, unless I add it to a treatment for a stubborn canker. I generally use Metronidazole which has worked very well for me. I use Metro at 50 mg for an adult, once daily for 10 days. If in a weeks time I see no improvement at all, then I will add another canker med to the treatment. That is if I know it is canker I am dealing with. Sometimes it can be stubborn and there are more stubborn strains out there now. If I feel that it may be something else along with the canker then I will add Baytril or something else to the treatment.
> 
> I don't think Nystatin tablets would work the same as the liquid. It has to touch the yeast to kill it. So giving the liquid in between feedings when the crop is empty, can coat the throat and crop. Then wait an hour or so to feed. Over here we use the liquid and it is 100,000iu in 1ml. We would give1/2 ml twice daily on an empty crop.


Thank you for replying so quickly Jay3. I have Metro but thought that since the birds were treated with it 6 months ago already it can be useful to change the med. But if you think Metro is better I will use it. May I ask why don't you like Ronidazole for individual treatment? I read that it's pretty safe and also effective.

As for Nystatin liquid/powder, for some reason unknown to me it's very difficult to find in my country. I have asked many vet stores as well as human pharmacies for it repeatedly but still have not found it. I will try again the next days.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I didn't say I don't like it for individual treatment. I said I don't use it that way, as Metro works fine for me. I have the powdered Ronidazole which goes in the drinking water, but I don't treat through the drinking water individually. When you do that, you cannot be sure of how much of the drug they got. So only use it as a flock treatment for preventative or precaution if one of them should come down with canker. I do have the Ronsec which I have added to the treatment if canker is stubborn. It has Ronidazole 25mg and Secnidazole 25mg. They recommend that you give it one day, then skip the second day, then give again on the third day.

Maybe the Nystatin would work better in a suspension by mixing with half an ml of water and giving that 2 times daily.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> I didn't say I don't like it for individual treatment. I said I don't use it that way, as Metro works fine for me. I have the powdered Ronidazole which goes in the drinking water, but I don't treat through the drinking water individually. When you do that, you cannot be sure of how much of the drug they got. So only use it as a flock treatment for preventative or precaution if one of them should come down with canker. I do have the Ronsec which I have added to the treatment if canker is stubborn. It has Ronidazole 25mg and Secnidazole 25mg. They recommend that you give it one day, then skip the second day, then give again on the third day.
> 
> Maybe the Nystatin would work better in a suspension by mixing with half an ml of water and giving that 2 times daily.


Thank you very much Jay3, I really appreciate your help.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howl, to make that suspension, you would need to finely crush and then mix the 500,000 mg tablet with 5ml of water. That would give you 100,000 mg/ml. You would then give the half an ml or 0.5ml 2 times daily. You would need to make sure you thoroughly mix it up before drawing it up in the syringe so that he gets the correct amount. 

I looked at what I typed earlier and realized that I explained it all wrong, and it didn't make sense. Sorry, was in a hurry. When mixing a crushed pill in water, it doesn't mix that easily and settles, so you need to be sure it is well mixed before drawing it up.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Howl, to make that suspension, you would need to finely crush and then mix the 500,000 mg tablet with 5ml of water. That would give you 100,000 mg/ml. You would then give the half an ml or 0.5ml 2 times daily. You would need to make sure you thoroughly mix it up before drawing it up in the syringe so that he gets the correct amount.
> 
> I looked at what I typed earlier and realized that I explained it all wrong, and it didn't make sense. Sorry, was in a hurry. When mixing a crushed pill in water, it doesn't mix that easily and settles, so you need to be sure it is well mixed before drawing it up.


Thanks for the correction. It's very careful of you  I also kinda guessed you mistyped it because I had come across some other posts you made where you mentioned the dosage of 100000 iu per day.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3. If my bird is eating less but its droppings are not watery, can canker be excluded? Yesterday and this morning she is eating significantly less than usual but her droppings are still of normal size and not watery, like in the photo below.

She was treated with cocci just last month already so I am going for canker, but there are no signs that usually associated with canker apart from eating less and sometime looking grumpy or dull when sitting on her eggs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howl, she may be fine. How much less is she eating?
Canker cannot be ruled out just because the droppings are not watery. With canker, they eventually loose their appetite, but drink more. But unless she is acting ill, then she may be fine.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

She's eating about half or 2 third as much as usual. The day bbefore yesterday she ate normally. When she goes out if the nest she looks ok but when in the nest sitting on eggs sometimes she looks dull as if tired or in pain. She's also staying in the nest more usual but I don't know if it's due to illness or because her mate has given up on the eggs and she's taking the job of both - she always abandons their eggs a few days later than her mate.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Sorry I did not mention in the previous post that the pattern of a few days eating normally alternating with a few days eating less and looking a bit dull and ruffled has been recurred for like a month now, but this time it's more serious.
I have tried given her ACV and probiotic twice or more a week but that she is not getting better.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She does get vitamins and calcium/D3 right? Hard to know what is going on with her. How old is she?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> She does get vitamins and calcium/D3 right? Hard to know what is going on with her. How old is she?


She's on pellets that is suitable for layer, so there's enough calcium/D3. I don't know her age as she is a rescue, but I have a hunch that she's pretty young.

When she retracts her head into her back and puffs up the neck/crop area, sometimes I see her crop/neck moves as if there was a small ball inside moving in a circle. It lasts for a few seconds. Have you seen that kind of movement?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some of the members on PT have had their birds that stand and move the crops in a circular motion. But it is very obvious. Not sure if it was canker or not.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

*Vomit or regurgitate?*

Hi Jay3, in the last 4 days my bird vomited/regurgitated a couples of time. Incidentally, these days they are mating and about to lay eggs. Is there anyway I can tell that she's been vomiting or regurgitating? I did not saw the action but saw liquid the color of pellets staining her beak and neck, in one occasion it stained her mate's beak and head too. When wiping the liquid off her beak and feather, I could detect sour smell.


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