# sex-link help



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

So i been breeding this pair a lot lately(4 times now) and i just want to confirm that its sex-link.
*About the background*
Cock is a (blue-check) or blue based. Both his parent are blue-check and also his sibling. 
The hen is a (rec. white) hiding red. Her father is a rec. white and her mother is a red-grizzle(full-white with yellow n orange color eyes and a little red shows at the tail-tip). 
here is the pair. blue cock and rec. white hen 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/picture.php?albumid=2144&pictureid=22000



[*1st round*] Red-grizzle cock and grizzle-hen at 1 and half moth old. The cock moult to darker red(ash red) and lost most of the white. 
The hen also lost most of her white feather and have more black and bronze feather after moult.










[*2nd round*] only a Red-grizzle cock but gave it to my uncle kids. The other egg was infertile. The cock is similar to this one. --> http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/me_nnoccent/red-grizzle.jpg 
This cock is from my 3rd round all grew up down below. unfortunately its sibling was taking by Mr. cooper when i try training them.



[*3rd round*] Red-grizzle cock and grizzle-hen. Cock recent picture is above at 3 months old. This hen got taken by mr. cooper. 











[*4th round*] Two red-grizzle. Assuming both are cock birds. Or was that whiter one[on the left] is a hen and those are not red bar but bronze?








here is another picture ----> http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/me_nnoccent/20130415_153020.jpg


So if this is sex-link then this *4th round* two youngster red-grizzle are both cock birds and no hen??
also, one more thing, since the father has pearl eyes, how come none of the off spring has it?? So far all of their off spring cock has yellow eye except some grizzle-hen will have both bull eyes or one bull eye and one yellow. No pearl!?!


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Yes, the ash reds are cocks and the blues are hens.
Sorry, can't help you on the eye color.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Pearl eye is not sex linked like base colour is. It is autosomal and recessive. 
All the babies will carry pearl eye because the father has it.
A bird needs one dose from each parent to have pearl eyes, your hen doesn't seam to carry pearl eye because none of the babies have pearl eyes.

If you breed a daughter back to the father half their babies will have pearl eyes (not taking into account the bull eyed birds) and if you breed the youngsters to each other you should get about 1/4 with pearl eyes, about 1/2 of their babies will carry pearl eye and 1/4 wont have pearl eyes or carry it.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

thepigeonkey said:


> Pearl eye is not sex linked like base colour is. It is autosomal and recessive.
> All the babies will carry pearl eye because the father has it.
> A bird needs one dose from each parent to have pearl eyes, your hen doesn't seam to carry pearl eye because none of the babies have pearl eyes.
> 
> If you breed a daughter back to the father half their babies will have pearl eyes (not taking into account the bull eyed birds) and if you breed the youngsters to each other you should get about 1/4 with pearl eyes, about 1/2 of their babies will carry pearl eye and 1/4 wont have pearl eyes or carry it.


thanks that helps a lot. Anyway I wont be doing inbreeding or crossbreeding. I have plenty birds that they can pair up with. I don t want to deal with genetic issues.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

On that last post they are both red grizzles so it seems from the other birds these will both be cocks. Do the cocks have black flecks? They do not look like they do but its hard to tell in pics like this.

Does the hen that has bred these youngsters have bull eyes? If so the **** grizzle hen that bred her must have carried rec white.

It appears the mother of these young in pics is **** (double dose) grizzle underneath which means the rec white cock bird that bred her must have also been grizzle. So the family is a long line of grizzles and rec whites, If in fact rec white is in the mix.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> On that last post they are both red grizzles so it seems from the other birds these will both be cocks. Do the cocks have black flecks? They do not look like they do but its hard to tell in pics like this.
> 
> Does the hen that has bred these youngsters have bull eyes? If so the **** grizzle hen that bred her must have carried rec white.
> 
> It appears the mother of these young in pics is **** (double dose) grizzle underneath which means the rec white cock bird that bred her must have also been grizzle. So the family is a long line of grizzles and rec whites, If in fact rec white is in the mix.


yes in fact all their cock offsprings has the black flecks mark. Its on their wing and tail tips. 

yes these bird's mother is a Recessive white full bull eyes(Im sure she carries red. Although her mother is a red grizzle(almost white) with color yellow eye, Her father i think was a rec. white).

So does this mean that all the cock offspring carries the rec. white genes? if i pair them up wait another bull eyes bird will yield out rec. white birds?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Firstly, If all the cocks so far have had black flecks that is indicative that the hen most likely is ash red based. Therefore, on the base colour locus this pair is a sex linked mating

As thepigeonkey said, Some genes are autosomal. 

Some are sex linked. This whole "sex linked mating" theory which you have a good grasp on only applies to pairs where the hen has a more dominant sex linked gene on the same locus as what the cock is.
In this example, Ash red and blue are on the same locus, Therefore they are alleles. The hen carries the more dominant of the two alleles, ash red, Making this pair a sex linked mating and causing the young to be the opposite base colour ( either ash red or blue ) than their parent

What you need to understand is that only a few of the colour genes are sex linked. The three base colours, Dilution, Almond series and lastly reduced and rubella group. 

EVERY other gene is non sex linked as far as we know, So rec white, rec red, grizzle, spread, check, T pattern, Dirty, Smoky to name just a few are non sex linked and the parents can pass these genes onto either sexed young at random or in all cases depending on dominance etc, but the colour of the young has no relation sex wise to the parents in autosomal genes. Once you understand that things are so simple

I challenge you to read up a little more about it and understand it as it makes genetics so much simpler, As a challenge to see if you have understood, When you feel ready,,

Give us two other examples of sex linked matings. Where the hen has a more dominant sex linked gene on the same locus as the cock. And name two examples of non sex linked matings.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Firstly, If all the cocks so far have had black flecks that is indicative that the hen most likely is ash red based. Therefore, on the base colour locus this pair is a sex linked mating
> 
> As thepigeonkey said, Some genes are autosomal.
> 
> ...


thanks, those are good advices. I may take the challenge but it will take a while because I m too young and only have birds for a short period of time. 

The non-sex-link i know so far of my birds is that this one pair i have that always produce grizzle offspring. Cock is a Rec. White(unknown parents, he may carrier red), Hen is dilute(not sure, the parents are andalusian cock x lemon splash hen). This pair offspring cocks various from white grizzle to white with red flecks to almost full white and opal bar. Their offspring hen are various in color too. So far,1 grizzle hen, a red grizzle and 1 fully white but have smokey beak(grizzle too??). Sorry, I dont know if i used correct pigeon color-terminologies.
here are the couple
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2144&pictureid=23999

here are some old photos i search up on my other old threads.
cock with offspring 3rd round
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2144&pictureid=24049

This is one of their offspring hen 2nd round
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2144&pictureid=23107

here is their 1st round
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2144&pictureid=22245


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

This may be somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand but the mother bird in the last post appears to be a combination of indigo and opal or maybe even reduced, rather than dilute.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

sev3ns0uls said:


> thanks, those are good advices. I may take the challenge but it will take a while because I m too young and only have birds for a short period of time.
> 
> The non-sex-link i know so far of my birds is that this one pair i have that always produce grizzle offspring. Cock is a Rec. White(unknown parents, he may carrier red), Hen is dilute(not sure, the parents are andalusian cock x lemon splash hen). This pair offspring cocks various from white grizzle to white with red flecks to almost full white and opal bar. Their offspring hen are various in color too. So far,1 grizzle hen, a red grizzle and 1 fully white but have smokey beak(grizzle too??). Sorry, I dont know if i used correct pigeon color-terminologies.
> here are the couple
> ...


When you say lemon do you mean extreme dilute? and is splash is grizzle? I'm sure you know andalusian is indigo on blue with spread. I cant help but think if grizzle wasn't there you would have a better idea of whats going on.

Always remember underneath it all at the very base a bird is either blue, ash red or brown, never all three. A white bird or black, recessive red, opal indigo andalusian lemon almond splash, they all have a base colour. Blue, ash red or brown. 
Sometimes an ash red cock will carry blue or brown and sometimes a blue cock will carry brown. That's all basics, I'm sure you know all that.

For a young fancier you have a vast range of modifiers. Well done, nice collection. Whats too young for pigeons mean? why won't you have them for long?


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

thepigeonkey said:


> When you say lemon do you mean extreme dilute? and is splash is grizzle? I'm sure you know andalusian is indigo on blue with spread. I cant help but think if grizzle wasn't there you would have a better idea of whats going on.
> 
> Always remember underneath it all at the very base a bird is either blue, ash red or brown, never all three. A white bird or black, recessive red, opal indigo andalusian lemon almond splash, they all have a base colour. Blue, ash red or brown.
> Sometimes an ash red cock will carry blue or brown and sometimes a blue cock will carry brown. That's all basics, I'm sure you know all that.
> ...


What I meant is that I am in my mid-20s and i've only had pigeons for 2 years as of last month. So it will take some time for me to understand more about color. Actually when i was younger, around 13-14 years old, i raise pigeon too. My friends and i use to take in feral pigeon and and raise them. At that time i dont know about the type of breeds there are and color factors. 

Anyway, I know the difference between a grizzle and a splash. 
In fact this is the pic of the lemon splash hen --> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1827&pictureid=18952
Here is her mate, an andalusian cock --> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1827&pictureid=18953

They produce this hen and paired with the rec. white cock. 
http://s295.photobucket.com/user/me_nnoccent/media/DSC08921.jpg.html?sort=3&o=26

This is her sister and dad. She is andalusian pie?
http://s295.photobucket.com/user/me_nnoccent/media/DSC08917.jpg.html?sort=3&o=30

I think both of them are blue base because of the father is a blue base. 
So please correct me. The lemon hen must be a brown base and the andalusain cock is a blue base. That means that any off spring hens will only be blue base since hen cannot carry their mother's base color.

Although the andalusian cock my be a brown base not blue base. Becuase both of the offspring hen show brown color on their wing span. especially this one
http://s295.photobucket.com/user/me_nnoccent/media/DSC08916.jpg.html?sort=3&o=31

you can see that there are brown on her wings tip and chest.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am wondering if that last youngster is a dilute blue - Indigo Spread (Dilute andalusian)? That would explain the brownish yellow tinge around the neck

I do not think this bird is brown however.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

In reference to post #11

I think you have no extreme dilute (lemon) In the mix. That bird looks like indigo spread dilute ash red pied and her mate appears to be indigo spread brown (brown andalusion) to me.

The birds with reddish chests may also have some opal expressing itself in that area. Indigo and spread together are quite effective in hiding opal.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

You may have seen these calculators before but its a great tool for working out multiple modifier crosses. Only thing is they don't have extreme dilute but you could just use dilute and pretend its extreme because it will give the same effect. (inherits the same)

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingDuifSpecial.html

and

http://www.national-federation.co.uk/Pigeon_Calculator_Advanced.htm

Extreme dilute on blue is lemon. According to Ron Huntley extreme dilute on brown is tan.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, this is sex-linked. With dad being a blue, the only way you'd get ash-red babies is if mom is ash-red based.

As for eye color, pearl is recessive so mom is probably pure yellow/orange and thus none of their babies will show pearl. Pied birds tend to have bull eyes or partially bull eyes (cracked, split, odd-eyes), and that is separate from the two "base" eye colors - yellow/orange and pearl.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, this is sex-linked. With dad being a blue, the only way you'd get ash-red babies is if mom is ash-red based.
> 
> As for eye color, pearl is recessive so mom is probably pure yellow/orange and thus none of their babies will show pearl. Pied birds tend to have bull eyes or partially bull eyes (cracked, split, odd-eyes), and that is separate from the two "base" eye colors - yellow/orange and pearl.


Thanks Becky. Okay i see.
Also can recessive pearl eye be hidden just like recessive color? Like a bird that shows yellow/orange eye0 pearl eyes?


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