# Acute paratyphoid like tumor on baby pigeon



## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Can someone please help me identify this cyst on my baby pij?

It showed up, very acutely, on day 6 after hatching; it wasn't there the night before but was there the next morning. There were two hatchlings, this one and his sibling. The sibling died within the first 36-hours.








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After some research, I learned about the various salmonellae strains that can kill hatchlings and cause this type of sore to erupt. But none of the pictures of cysts I found on the various pigeon sites (including this one) look like the cyst on Bob. The only pictures I could find of paratyphus cysts are on adult birds and they were much larger and black. Also, his joints don't appear to have any swelling.

He has been doubling his size as expected, but I think his stools have too much clear water in them, as though he dropped his stool in a water puddle; good spiral but in a lot of clear water with it. He also seems to have to bear down more than the other birds I've raised have had too, as though he's constipated.










His parents were not filling his crop either. I have removed him and I'm hand-feeding him and his appetite has significantly improved. He did not eat much the first few hand feedings but after I started mixing in a little Duramyacin-10 (Tetracycline Hydrochloride powder), he is voracious.

As a holistic treatment, I thinned some grapefruit seed extract, mixed it into some warm triple-antibiotic, and smeared a little in the center of it.

The thought did cross my mind that it could be an infection caused by a claw wound from one of his parents. The only thing is his mother also presents a watery stool too.










Has anyone seen this kind of growth on a baby pij?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It doesn't look like paratyphoid at all, to me-- those boils show up on the joints (they're actually swollen with joint fluid). 

My first guess is that this is canker that has grown through the crop wall. Parents can pass it on to the young, or it can infect the young through an unhealed navel. Canker would also explain the difficulty passing droppings.

The urates are yellowed, which often accompanies canker. Do the poops smell bad????

Have you treated for canker of late? Does the bird have a smell to it at all? 

Canker can be invisible to the eye, and show up internally -- so you won't necessarily be able to see it in the parents, but it would be a good idea to check their throats in any event.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If this *is* canker, you can grind up metronidazole or spartrix and apply it as a paste to the lesion externally, as well as treating the baby with the drug orally. Be aware that the crop wall may be breached, so you don't want to try to remove this thing in any way -- treat it, let it dry up, and let it fall off on its own. 

Obviously, I'm not positive this is canker -- it could be a bacterial infection or something else, but I think it's worthwhile following up on the possibility -- it seems the most likely to me.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would of thought is was canker also, I would treat him with multiple meds.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Spirit Wings and Minimonkey,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly!

I had checked the baby's mouth for the obvious canker that I saw in pictures but had not considered the rest of the info you just shared with me as I am too new to pigeon husbandry. Thank you so much, I will call the local feed/stock store and find the Spartrix and Metronidazole.

Initially, I did explore the growth with a clean probe but could see where trying to lance this growth would be a bad idea for the reasons you also mentioned Minimonkey. That is what worried me the most; the baby starving slowly due to crop infection. What I did find is that the growth is as hard and solid as scar tissue.

It has started to reduce with the application of the grapefruit seed extract, by approximately 1mm as of this morning, but I also realize the extract is only topical and doesn't cure the underlying infection.

Do Tetracylcines work for these infections? That is what I have on hand and what is recommended by the local Vets but they tell me they don't really treat birds often. However, I will give them credit that within 12 hours of starting Duramycin-10 treatments and hand-feeding, the baby's droppings have increased tremendously in volume, his appetite has now become (normal) voracious, and the stool fluid volume has significantly reduced; but that seems almost too fast of a cure. I am skeptic that it was absorbed into the fiber of the hand-feeding formula instead.

Here is a dropping from last night at 2am:









Even in this solid dropping, the urates do still look more yellowish than pure white.

I just am happy his is a very hungry birdie when he eats now 

Question: What does canker smell like? I _have_ noticed a strong pickle-like-acidic smell in the cage as of late. So, I removed the birds and pressure-washed everything (the cage and all stands/accessories) with a bleach mixture and left it to dry in the sun. I also soaked the cage liners with a Cavicide spray and let them dry before replacing the birds.

What else should I be doing?

Thanks again, ~C.R.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Stool update:

As of 13:00 today, 18-hours into Duramycin treatments, Bob is up to about one stool per hour and this is the latest:









Growth is reduced by about .75-1mm:









Bob:


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

A "strong pickle like acidic smell" is a pretty accurate description of the canker smell in my opinion. It's a kind of sour smell that almost smells like a chemical, to my nose, rather than something of biological origin. It's really a strange smell -- not like anything else I've encountered. 

Canker is actually a protozoal infection, rather than bacterial, so tetracycline won't treat it. It needs a class of medications known as nitroimidazoles -- they are antiprotozoal meds that also have some antibiotic activity. 

The most commonly used of those are metronidazole, ronidazole, and carnidazole (Spartrix). Most feed stores don't sell these, but all the major pigeon houses do -- 

Jedd's is a little pricier than some places, but they ship very fast.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Canker/Categories.bok

I'd suggest treating your whole flock for canker. Dimetridazole is the riskiest of the canker drugs, so I wouldn't suggest that one unless nothing else works -- but Rondizole is very safe, and so is metronidazole. 

It's always a good idea to keep at least two different canker meds on hand, since it is often resistant to treatment. 

The grapefruit seed extract was a good call -- it does seem to have some action against canker.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I must say, Bob's droppings look much better -- so it's likely there was something bacterial going on in addition to probable canker. Bacterial infections and canker tend to occur at the same time. 

Since you are getting results with the GSE, I'd keep using it externally for the time being. 

Just be sure to mix it with something, as it can be a bit harsh on the skin. 

Canker dries up and gets really hard, like a rock, when it heals. Don't try to detach the lesions -- they have roots into the skin, and can cause a lot of bleeding when removed too soon. They will fall off on their own after they heal up, generally -- though a growth of this size may need a little help later on. 

For now, I'd suggest getting some canker meds asap for all your birds.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

One last post from me -- when pigeons get an infection, it doesn't fill up with pus the way a human lesion does, so it can't be lanced in the same way a human boil can. 

Pigeon pus is very solid -- at it's most liquid, it can feel a bit like cottage cheese or scrambled eggs -- and it can become incredibly hard and rock like. 

Generally, as a localized infection heals, the pus-like plug will find it's way out of the body through the skin ... and it will come off in a big lump. 

I can't seem to enlarge today's lesion picture enough to see it very well -- is it possible to post a bigger one?


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Minimonkey,

I've gone back through and fixed the photos. I'm using Google+ Photos for a picture server and still learning it , LoL.

You described his abscess perfectly. I would call it a _dense_ Cheerio under the skin, with a distinct orifice in the center and it is that center (white spot) that is reducing its diameter daily. I bought the GSE for myself as a planer's wart and skin tag remover and I know it can sting/burn pretty severely in raw form, you are definitely right about that. I have been cutting it with a coconut lipid based antibiotic cream I buy from the holistic store here. He seems to tolerate it very well.

The smell is dead on, and it has been acute, since they laid the eggs actually. I've had the parents since they were poult sized and they have never smelled before.








Which begs the question, what happened? What changed? Why did this start when they laid eggs? Are the protozoa triggered by hormonal changes? I've been feeding them the same foods, using the same water source, I haven't changed anything but still one chick died in less than two days and Bob is having these issues.

Again, thanks to you and spirit wings and I will now look for these medications.

~C.R.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Regarding canker, and what causes it --

Trichomoniasis, the protozoa that causes canker, is present in the digestive system of most birds to some degree. Their immune systems keep it in check, and it doesn't necessarily cause disease as long as it stays at low levels. 

When something stresses the bird -- laying, illness, weather changes, etc., it can allow the organism to get a foothold and begin to overgrow. 

In this case, it may well have been the breeding that did it -- that puts a strain on both the male and the female, since both sit the eggs, and both produce crop milk. 

But, since the little one is responding well to the tetracycline, I rather suspect there's some kind of bacterial infection present as well, and it might not be a bad idea to treat the parents with tetracycline also, even if they aren't showing symptoms. 

That sounds like a great antibiotic preparation -- I love coconut oil for so many things!

Keep us updated....

How many birds do you have? Is it just the two parents and the baby, or do you have others?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I just saw the bigger photo from today (thanks for fixing it!) -- and yes, that definitely looks like canker to me. Treating it externally with a paste of anti-canker meds will probably be pretty effective, along with the oral dosing.

Canker finds its way into the body through the digestive tract, but it can sometimes worm its way out the skin like that, or up through sinuses, etc. So, assuming this IS canker, it has penetrated the crop wall. 

Occasionally these things leave a perforated crop of the lesion is removed before it has fully healed up -- so if you notice the baby picking at it, try to dissuade him from picking it off too soon.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok, then it is _sort of_ like e.coli in the human digestive system, it is in everyone and safe is it stays in place and doesn't get introduced to the system from an external source. That makes sense to me. I've spent most of my life as a Medic.

Well, as for other birds...the number of pet birds is:
(1) Yellow-Shouldered Green Amazon (Tiki)
(1) African Gray (Cletus)
(1) Ruby-Crested Amazon (Jobu)
(15) Zebra Finches (from 3 originals through 7 generations of offspring)
(7) chickens for good fresh eggs for me and the other birds
(3) Feral Colorado Rock Pigeons

The thing is, I was local public safety and pretty much everyone around here knows me. Everyone also knows I grew up as a pseudo-farmboy in Nebraska (very small ranchette) and raised chickens, ducks, geese, pheasants, quail, and the occasional wild breed.

So, when the Waldo Canyon (Colorado) Wildfire kicked off, every high school kid in town was bringing me wild baby and adult birds to rehab (thanks to the girlfriend's daughters). By the end of it all I had treated/rehabbed: (23) Barn Swallows; (16) Cliff Swallows, (3) Wilson's Warblers; (2) Red Winged Blackbirds; (1) Robin; (2) Stellar's Jays; (1) Cooper's Hawk; (5) chipping sparrows; and (1) Colorado Ringed Rock Dove... So, like I was saying in my previous posts, I am confused because I am the best house-cleaner you'll ever meet. We never had problems with ALL of those other birds. However, Jobu was found abandoned on the side of the highway in his cage and the local Sheriff's Office brought him to me. He appeared healthy but died suddenly and I wonder if he wasn't a carrier of something. I had a necropsy performed and all it revealed was congenital defects. I'm pretty sure he was an illegal import.

Fortunately, I had given up the public safety gig to go back to grad school and do more with the National Guard, so I had the time to actually care for the birds and enjoyed them tremendously; very life enriching. Astoundingly, I managed to keep a 27% attrition rate among the wild birds and was able to later to release 73% of those I had taken in. 

Here's a picture of "Buddy", my best-buddy Cliff Swallow riding on the steering wheel of my car taking in the sites:









Thanks again, I am searching for those meds right now. Bob is sleeping soundly here next to the keyboard. He seems to like Bach. LoL


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

*MEDPET 4-in-1 Powder*

Has anyone had any experience with this medication powder? It seems a good way to hit protozoa and bacteria at the same time, from a couple of angels. Please advise. ~C.R. 










For the treatment of Canker (Trichomoniasis), E.Coli, Paratyphoid (Salmonella) and Coccidiosis in pigeons and cage birds. Easy to dose water-soluble powder. Safe and economical. Ideal for treatment when a firm diagnosis is still pending. The ultimate quality 4-in-1 powder available. 

Available sizes: 100g

EACH 100g POWDER CONTAINS: Furaltadone 20% , Ronidazole 7% , Excipients to 100g


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

*3-in-1; 4-in-1; 5-in-1 powders*

Oh good night...there is more of this stuff available then one can shake a stick at 

Minimonkey, Jedd's imports this stuff from South Africa, seems to have a decent reputation on the internet but expires in 90-days. Which tells me it is actually good active ingredients but there are several types. I am thinking about getting the 5-in-1 just so I can treat everyone in the house and try to nip this thing before it jumps to my other birds. What is your opinion?

From Jedd's:









ALL IN ONE

SKU: A1315

All In One is a powder that gives us the best value and covers the largest range of health issues.

Coccidiosis is probably the most common pigeon health problem and All In One contains Amprolium and is listed as both a treatment and a preventative for Coccidiosis. Canker (Trichomoniasis) another common pigeon health issue is both preventable and treatable. All In One contains the safe drug, Ronidazol, an effective drug. The third most common health problem is worms, and All In One contains Levamisole which treats for most worms with the exception of Tape worms. Tylan is the drug of choice for respiratory and you’ll find it in All In One. The fifth ingredient includes pro-biotics to rebuild gut bacteria and relieve stress.

Treatment: 2 teaspoons per gal for 5 days. Makes 28-30 gallons. 200 grams

As always, thank you! ~C.R.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, welcome to the world of pigeon meds! 

You're better off avoiding the all-in-one medications -- they're often dosed too low to really eradicate anything, and you also end up medicating unnecessarily for some things, and potentially increasing antibiotic resistance. 

For canker, here is what I suggest: 

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?no=511

and 

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-523/MEDITRICH-100-tablets-(Medpet)/Detail.bok


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Ah, that makes sense too. Ok, I will go with solo meds then. Thanks!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If you are going to be keeping pigeons, I'd also suggest picking up some doxycycline and some Baytril (enrofloxacin) to keep on hand. 

You can get those here:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Their generic for Baytril is enroflaxyn

and 

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-482/DOXYBIRD-TABS-(Medpet)/Detail.bok


Jedd's doesn't carry enrofloxacin, but Siegel's does.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, canker is a bit like E Coli in humans, as you described, but it doesn't go into the blood stream. It can burrow through tissue, though, and come out the sinuses, eye sockets, nares, and through the crop lining as with your little guy. 

I'm glad you have so much experience rehabbing! Very impressive! 

Pigeons are a bit different than other birds, but most of the same principles apply. 

The one other thing you are likely to run into fairly frequently, if you take in feral pigeon rescues, is coccidiosis. That's another protozoal infection, but it causes primarily enteritis. 

Most people seem to favor amprolium for that, but the sulfa drugs are also effective. 

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Coccidiosis-cln-Amprolium/Categories.bok


There are a number of places that carry pigeon meds on the web -- I'm linking you to Jedd's because they ship quickly, and your little classical music buff could use some Spartrix and Metronidazole, pronto -- 

Honestly, I end up ordering from about 5 different places to get the best prices for everything I want and need.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If you can get a weight for your little guy when the meds arrive, we can help you figure out dosing for him. He's very cute!

I love the picture of Buddy!

One other thing to be aware of with pigeon rescues -- pigeons can carry avian chlamydia (the cause of psittacosis), which can be treated, but I believe that psittacines are a lot more vulnerable to it than pigeons are -- so be sure to keep any new birds quarantined well away from your parrots, as well as from your other pigeons. 

Just general good hygiene and quarantining of new or sick birds is sufficient to protect the others.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

minimonkey, 

Seems someone else had mentioned that about the parrots too. I have ordered Rendizole and Spartrix. What do you think about Ridzol-S powder for the water, as a maintenance?

Separation is an issue. I have managed well so far, but I am at 10,200ft here in Colorado and it is about -19 outside right now, with 4 inches of snow. I can here my chickens beaks chattering in the coup, LoL

Buddy was the absolute coolest. He would fly from room to room in the house looking for me. Then he'd land on my shoulder, summarily poop, and then nip at my ear until I would go get him some microwaved mealworms. I eventually released him last August, the latest I could wait for the migration. He soared into the other birds and never looked back. So, a happy success story.

Here is Bob today:
















The sore has now turned upward into a dome shape with a hard gumdrop-like center.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, despite the growth, your little guy is growing up well, and is very cute!

Ridzol is ronidazole, and is generally a very good drug for canker. Glad you ordered that and the spartrix, too. 

That sore is definitely odd ... does it seem to be growing? Are you treating him for canker now, or are you waiting for the meds? 

It'll sure be nice when you can get that thing to start clearing up! It looks quite uncomfortable.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

The only thing I have to treat the sore with right now is the grapefruit seed extract. I have been treating him and his parents with Duramycin-10 in their water and the tiniest sprinkle in his food, just for intestinal stuff. The intestinal part seems to be going well. He (or she) is very energetic and preens rapidly growing feathers constantly so I take that as a good sign right now. I have been cleaning their cage daily and giving mom & dad their bath but removing the bath-bowl when their done.

Is there anything else I can do right now for him?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I hope your canker meds get there soon -- and glad to hear the Duramycin is clearing up some of the intestinal issues. 

I'm still assuming that is a canker growth, so it won't start clearing up in earnest probably until you get the ronidazole/spartrix going. Hopefully it is localized for the most part and there isn't a lot of internal canker happening. 

The fact that the baby is energetic, growing well, etc. is very encouraging on that front. 

I can't think of much else you can do until you get your meds order.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

*Stitchin’ Pijin’, Part 2 of 2*
Stitching, thanks to my family Dr. who donated some 5-0 Prolene sutures:









Finished!









Poor Bob, but looking none the worse for the wear:









As of 2 hours post-op, Bob is sleeping soundly  He wakes occasionally to stretch his wing and turn in his nest.

Toughest bird in the coup!


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok, so, I put Bob in with his folks and what is the FIRST thing his mother does? She walks right over to him and starts pecking at his sore, which she then dislodges, and like a balloon, Bob starts to deflate from the neck!
So, add yet another title to my resume: Pigeon Medic
Stitchin’ Pijin’, Part 1 of 2
These look gross, but before you hurl, no that it is only hand feeding formula coming out of the hole in his crop. There was no smell and almost no blood.
Food leaking from his crop after the infectious plug was pulled out by his retarded mother:









Pre-Op:








This is the plug and the cyst from behind it. The cyst had been snowy white when extracted:








Wound prep:


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I missed the first part of this -- I think you only posted part 2. Did you remove the lump yourself? Did it fall off on its own? Can you post a picture of the plug, and the post-removal wound?

Nice job with the sutures! One thing I suspect you know, but if that was through the crop wall, it is best to suture the crop membrane separately from the outer skin (with a dissolving suture on the crop portion.) If not, it causes stricturing, which is where the crop membrane and the outer skin grow together. 

If the outer skin is sutured but the crop hole is still open, it can cause leakage of the crop contents into the pocket between the crop and the skin. 

Anyhow, you probably addressed all this in part 1, but that's not showing up here.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh crap! No, his mother pecked it out. I didn't realize she was pecking at it until I looked in on them and caught her. She had already dislodged it to the point it was hanging on the side of his neck. I didn't actually stitch the crop separate. I didn't see a separation on the wall, it appeared as one hole. Should I go back in and address that? I don't have any dissolving sutures though.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Aha! There's part 1! I was worried that this breached the crop wall -- and it sure does. It does appear to be canker that grew out from the inside. Does it have that sour, chemical smell to it? 

This also could be bacterial -- you don't happen to have a microscope lying around do you, or know someone who might?

I wouldn't suture this through the outside skin-- although you did a very nice job with the closure, it is best to let a crop injury heal from the inside out. If you can get your hands on a dissolving suture, you can go back in and close just the crop membrane portion, and leave the rest to heal by second intention. Otherwise, I'd use the suture material you have (assuming you have another) and close just the crop, and pack the wound to keep it open. Once the crop injury has closed (which will be really fast, a day or two) you can pull the stitches and let the rest heal. 

Crop stitiching is a tad tricky because the crop membrane should be able to move independently of the outer skin. This wound is small enough that if it does stricture, it probably won't be a major problem --- but if the crop membrane isn't fully closed off, leakage could cause trouble.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The crop membrane is really thin, and very stretchy by comparison to the outer skin. You might need to reach in with a pair of tissue forceps and very, very gently pull it out through the larger hole, in order to close it by itself, independent of the outer skin. 

It's also possible that the crop membrane is already somewhat adhered to the outer skin, if a fistula was forming.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

The plug and stem have no smell, none whatsoever.

I have suture left. I will go back in, how thin is that membrane? Is it the white tissue I was seeing? If so, I think it is only about 1/4 in diameter and should be easy to close.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

At this point, he and I have nothing to lose. There is no bird Vet around here and the local "Vet" said "kill it quickly".


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If you plan to go back in, I'd let the crop empty completely, first. That'll make it a lot easier to get in there and get a hold of the crop membrane -- and you won't have to battle leakage in the process.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, the crop membrane is whitish and very, very thin. Sounds like that's what you were seeing. Probably one stitch is all it'll take to close it. Then pack the wound well, so it'll stay open long enough to get that stitch out in a day or two. Leave a long thread so you can get a hold of it again easily and find it -- otherwise it'll try to disappear under the skin. Leave the thread hanging out through the larger hole. 

If the plug has no smell, it's doubtful it's bacterial. I think we'll assume it's canker -- the smell is usually in the droppings more than in the exudate. 

Do you have any other antibiotics on hand?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am going to see if I can find a decent photo to illustrate what I am saying -- in the mean time, do you happen to have an otoscope? If so, take a peek through that hole while you have it open so you can see what other surprises might be lurking inside that crop.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

This is a thread about chickens, but it is more or less the same idea. Scroll down a bit for the photos. 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/2...formed-more-pics-how-to-steps-posted-pg-10/90

Looks like this woman uses a regular needle and thread to do the sutures. I wouldn't care to try that ...


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Here's a link that shows a necropsied pigeon crop -- look at the photo marked A (non-lactating crop) to get a sense of how thin the membrane is. 

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=crop...w=262&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:93


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm treating it likes it's Japanese rice tissue but I cannot seem to get a hold of any of it. The base of the hole is the narrowest part and the walls of the wound are conical, reducing on the way in to the crop so, essentially, unless I cut him open further, I don't know how I'm going to get to the hole in the crop to stitch it, it's like the crop wall is shredded.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)




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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

There may be a fistula that has formed, essentially allowing the crop membrane to adhere to the outer skin around the breach. It might also be that there's additional canker growing inside the crop -- that can cause changes in the crop tissue. 

If you're comfortable doing it, I'd suggest opening him up a tiny bit, right around the hole, and seeing if you can get a good hold on the crop membrane that way -- I don't know what you have on hand in terms of surgical tools....


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If that doesn't work, then you really have two options -- the first is to pack the wound really well, leaving only the bottom portion unpacked, and hope it heals on its own. There's a good possibility that it will, since the opening is small -- but you'll need to make sure that the wound doesn't leak before that hole closes up, since obviously the bird needs food and fluid in the mean time. 

The other option is to suture just the very bottom part closed, going wide enough to be sure you get the crop membrane together -- then pack the rest of the wound, and remove the suture in a day or two. There will probably be a bit of a stricture from this, but the area is small -- and at least you won't have food and fluid leaking out behind the skin. 

It looks like the skin in that area is incredibly inflamed, which is why you are having to dig into a flesh tunnel, essentially, to even get to the crop.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

I think it's worse than that mini, I soaked the growth and the trailing tissue and it looks to be a large, respectively, sheet of his crop tissue that came out with the growth.










I fear the old Vet may have been right after all. I don't think I can fix this can I?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, let's not jump to conclusions just yet -- but that does look like a complication. It may or may not be crop tissue --but it does look potentially necrotic. It's not unusual for a necrotic plug to form behind a bad canker lesion like that one. 

Pigeons can't break down dying tissue, so it needs to find a way out of the body . One of our old members used to be famous for repeating the phrase "avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." 

Can you get a couple of good close ups of that tissue? Can you describe how it feels?

Pigeons, even babies, can recover from some pretty dire situations, so I wouldn't give up on the little tyke. Pack the wound for now, cover it, and let's see if we can figure out what the heck we're dealing with. If you have the necessary equipment to give some liquid subcutaneously, that would be a good thing to do -- if not, then just pack the wound as well as you can, and keep it moist. 

If there's a big rupture in the crop itself, you may be looking at a trickier (but not impossible) surgery to fix it. 

It would be stellar if you could get your hands on an otoscope.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also, if you can run some sort of a sound/probe down that wound, it's important to know if there's any more of that plug attached to the bottom of the hole. If there is, it needs to come out.

Looking at the photo you just posted, I'm inclined to think that may be outer skin rather than crop tissue, but I can't get a good look at it. It almost looks like there's yellow down in there, though...

You said it was white when you first removed it?


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok. I'll work on the pictures. The plug itself appears to be intact. Now that I look at it closer, it appears that, as you described initially, it was attached to the crop wall itself. The tissue that came out is white and feels sort of like plasticized rubber, if that makes any sense. I have have suctioning small pieces of it out as well, as I've tried to keep the wound clear while working. If I leave it out of liquid, the tissue sheet turns clear and hard, like plastic.

The wound canal is funnel or cone shape, approximately 3/8 inch at the orifice and 1/8 inch at the bottom. The bit of yellow you were seeing at the bottom, which looks almost like a superior view of the human larynx to me, is more white than it appears in the pic. I am stuck with my iPhone for a camera right now. Better camera coming.

I wish I could get an otoscope, but I doubt Doc will let me borrow that. However, I have probed the bottom of the wound and it does lead directly into the crop. I nearly had to (and could have) suctioned the entire crop empty from the wound.

I will pack it and send those pics asap.

Thanks for staying with me on this, I really appreciate it!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

You got it ... I'm with you on this one....


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am going to need to go to bed tonight, but I hope you got the little guy stabilized enough to get through the night. Keep him warm -- that'll help. 

Assuming baby is still with you in the morning, try to see if you can wrangle a dissolving suture out of your doc, as well as a prescription for a couple of tablets of metronidazole (flagyl). It would also be really great if you had amoxicillin, which is good for this kind of situation. 

If you can't get them from your doc, farm and feed stores sometimes have sutures in the cattle section, or possibly a veterinary supply might have them if there's one nearby.... they also sometimes have meds. 

Aquarium stores often carry fish antibiotics, one of which is metronidazole. Amoxicillin is sold without a prescription for birds. You might be able to find these things with a bit of calling around. 

You also might see if you can find an inexpensive otoscope for sale ... there are a few veterinary models that aren't too pricey, and there's one called "Dr Mom" that is about 25 bucks, and really worth the price. I have the LED version of the "Dr Mom." I'm not sure where you'd find it locally -- I ordered mine from Amazon. 

I hope the little guy is still holding on -- I'll check in tomorrow and see how he's doing.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm wondering if this little guy made it through the night... I'll check back later, and hope for an update....


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

He did, in fact, better than I did, LoL

However, the hole closed up. I had a difficult time securing the packing. I just a rub of Triple-Anitbiotic ointment an a bit of clean cotton swab and packed the orifice with that and it closed in less than 6 hours.

Orifice as of 1430 MST, the white stuff in the bottom is feather dander. I keep blowing it out.









I had some amoxicillin caplets left over from the last time I needed them. I separated one and just dusted his last hand feeding.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, so long as it is healing from the inside out, then all may yet be well. It's very possible that skin plug was actually his outside skin, rather than crop lining, and that the crop will seal up internally without further complications. Keep the wound clean, let it continue to heal, and see how it goes. Crops can heal remarkably well sometimes on their own. 

It looks like the inflammation in the surrounding tissue has already gone down quite a bit.

Just make absolutely sure that the crop is emptying fully and that there isn't a pocket of food starting to form subcutaneously -- that is best done by feel, and keeping a close eye on the wound area for any swelling, keeping an eye out for crop stasis, etc. 

It would be good to get a more exact dosing going on with the amoxicillin, but if you don't know his weight, it would still be guess work. 

He'll definitely need to be treated for canker, though, and so do the parents -- as soon as possible. Canker can cause a lot of damage internally. 

Glad to hear he made it through the night and that his body is kicking in to high gear for healing. 

Keep us updated!


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

mini, it seems to be healing quite well. I guess, at this point, I will just leave it be and hope for the best. He's active, alert, constantly hungry, and wants to sit in my hand all of the time so I will keep watch for the crop mass and signs of lethargy. I am continuing to give him the amox and duramycin, same with his parents who have already gone to nest again. Hopefully, I will have the flagyl soon.

Thank you so much for the help, knowledge, and advice you have offered me, I can't express how much I appreciate it. I definitely hope all of this thread we have made will help many others as much as it has me.

Here is Bob as of this morning:









Here is the wound:









I'll keep weekly updates going.

Happy Holidays!


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Alrighty, again this morning (Saturday, 15DEC) Bob is still doing fine. He's standing in the nest and flapping his wings now, and wanting food from anyone who will be motivated by his squeaking.

His wound seems to be healing very quickly. The swelling is all but gone now. The lining of the orifice is drying and peeling itself out like dried leather.









I was able to obtain a Rx for Flagyl from my Doc which I have ground this morning and am ready to start administering to Bob and his parents. I have been reading that vomiting can be an issue with this medication but I haven't seen any info on how to prepare it to avoid that. What would be the best way? Bob ways 5.12 oz (.32lb) according to my small shipping scale.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That wound healing is picture perfect -- well done! So glad he's feeling so fine! I love endings like this one.

As long as he is eating and digesting, then I suspect the crop has healed together just fine. That little plug will probably come out on its own .. if it doesn't then you may have to help it, but just keep an eye out to make sure all the hardened tissue comes out. 

I'll get you some directions for the flagyl.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

What dosage is the Flagyl pill? You'll need to prepare a suspension -- I can tell you how to do that, but I will need to know the pill dose.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Yes, I am very happy with the results too. He is squeaking and walking about flapping his wings allot so he must not have much pain.

The pills were 500 milligrams but I've already ground them into powder. I have located a granular scale downtown but the shop is not open on weekends so I will go there Monday morning.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Well for Pete's sake, Jane (Bob's mother) just laid another egg...LoL

How should I treat them to avoid the canker issue that killed Bob's sibling?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Honestly, I'd pull these eggs and not let them hatch. They'll lay more, trust me! Get them canker free before they raise more young, and you and the birds will all be better off. 

You don't need a gram scale. What you'll do is take the 500 mgs of powder, and add it to 10 ml of maple syrup or corn syrup (diluted honey is ok too). Stir it really really well, wait 20 minutes and stir again. This will give you a suspension in which each ml has 50 mgs of the drug. 

An adult bird should get about 50 ml a day of flagyl, if you know they have canker, for 7 to 10 days. For a baby, I'd go with closer to 15 mgs daily. Flagyl is very forgiving with dosing, but it can be toxic in very high doses. 

Stir the med each time you use it, and refrigerate between uses. You'll dose it with a syringe (with no needle, obviously) directly into the beak.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

A gram scale is still a nice thing to have, but this method works very well. And Bob and Jane... really? What's the Dad's name?


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok, that makes sense. The pills are already ground too, that sounds easy enough


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Just for future reference for whomever might read this thread, here's what can happen if food spills into that area between the crop and the outer skin -- I took in this bird yesterday, with exactly that situation (photos are a bit graphic). She had been in an animal shelter for 10 days with her condition growing worse the longer she stayed -- clearly she had a crop puncture at some point in the process. The majority of that necrotic mess is from food spillage. 

I'm still trying to assess the nature of the wound, but I'm rather suspecting she was shot with some small caliber bullet (bb gun, air rifle, etc.) 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157632258995046/


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob is still doing good, the orifice has all but completely disappeared!

No more hole:


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

That looks nasty, poor bird. Glad you're able to fix on him (or her).

I have been letting Bob's crop get completely empty before every feeding. He's not very happy about it but it seems the crop wound has at least sealed.

And his droppings have already lost their yellowish-tint, after just 24 hours of treatments with the Flagyl. The first 3 or 4 were back to the excess yellow fluid type but the fluid tapered off and his urea is bright white now, as it should be.

Thanks again mini, you helped me keep my little buddy!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Awwww! That last picture is just precious! I am so glad you have your little buddy, and that he or she is doing so well! Also very glad you got the Flagyl and that it is already clearing things up  

My girl's doing really well, too -- I'll be cleaning the wound for a few days, but it is already closing up and smelling worlds better.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Hey mini, can't thank you enough for sharing everything with me the way you have. "Bob" and parents are responding well to the Flagyl. From the look of the droppings, I think his father had the worst issue with the canker. I pull Bob out everyday for exploration/play time and pet time with me. His folks are used to me enough they just peck and scold me but go right back to feeding him so, it's working well. I have been giving all three treatments for 4 days now and the droppings for all three are looking good. I've also been watching Bob's crop closely and so far, so good. Bob is also already starting to peck and look around for scratch on the floor. The most hilarious thing is he will chase the computer cursor around the monitor screen if I set him on my desk next to the monitor.

Glad to here the patient is doing well!

The Pij Family Bob-n-Son:


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

LOL -- the cursor chasing is adorable!  So glad he's doing well and thriving. You're very welcome for the help -- glad it was useful to you. 

That looks like a fabulously big cage set up you have there -- where did you find something that size? I have problems finding cages big enough to house two adults comfortably, so I end up building them (which is fine, but in a pinch it would be nice to have one ready made!)

My little girl continues to heal up well -- it's lots of flushing and debris removal and antibiotics, but the wound is healing up with no complications, and I think she'll have full use of her wing on the other end of this.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

*Bird Cage*

It's actually a large parrot cage that I got off of Craigslist. I really lucked out in the I was able to trade partially for it. I had put my Rose-Crested Amazon in it but he passed from a heart attack recently so I left it sit in the sun to blanch and then power-sprayed and bleached it for use with the pigeons. It works well because they can flap freely without beating/splitting their flight feathers.

I use 3/4in dowels for perches and the platform the stainless steel dog-bowl nest is on is an old stainless steel BBQ wire rack. When the canker issue started, I swapped out the BBQ rack for the old wood platform I had installed. This help cut down on fecal pileup.

Bob is nested in one of the feed/water bowls. I have a dowel running to it so his parents have access but he is not a "threat" to the nest as mom is still sitting in the nest and is therefore very territorial. However, they both keep feeding him well. I removed the eggs like we discussed but she's still sitting so, at this point, I keep treating for canker and will just see what happens. I like the removable bowels because Bob identifies it as his nest and I can pull him out for hand feeding/treatment/play time plus, everything is stainless steel and easy to decontaminate.

You might watch CL if you don't already. I would think there would be a bunch of parrot cages out your way.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wood platforms are nice -- pigeons tend to prefer perching on flat surfaces rather than the traditional round perches that most birds favor. 

I should watch Craigslist more often than I do -- 

I generally get "cat cages" if I need a large cage in a jiffy -- (seriously, who puts their cat in a cage????) -- they're about the right size for one adult pair, and have flat perches included with them ... but I'm always on the lookout for more, and bigger, housing for my guys.

I'm going to be building another large flight cage or two in the very near future.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

Ya know, I guess that's true, I always see them in flat surfaces I guess. They see to like the dowels ok but I do have some 1x3s I could mount as well to give them a choice and wouldn't be too bad on accumulation I think.


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## CRinWP (Nov 28, 2012)

*Acute paratyphoid like tumor on baby pigeon - turns out OK in the end!*

Hey mini!

I hope your holidays were as grand as they could be! Mine were great as I had Bob around to go with me to see family. Bob is doing absolutely terrific. He sat on the back deck of the car sunning himself or on the passenger headrest as I drove down the road. He weened himself onto seed, follows me around the house, and even flies into the bedroom to stand on my chest and squeak at me in the morning. My parrot is jealous because Bob sits shoulder calmer and quieter than she does. Bob is entertaining as can be. He'll fly from the floor to my shoulder and ride there for hours if I let him. Like a dog, he follows me around the house and for whatever reason, loves the unfinished basement. He'll go down there and back up by himself.

Bob's turned out to be quite the bird and quite the pet. I can't thank you enough for helping me help him!

Bob as of today, 14JAN2013:


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