# neurological disorder or pmv?



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Someone just brought me a fledgling feral squeaker that was saved from drowning in the ocean. He's got some issues and I'm wondering what is going on. Hoping someone can shed light on the situation.

The left wing appears to be paralyzed, and left eye may be blind. The pupil is distorted - not round but more of an egg shape, and he does not blink when a finger is moved very close to the head on that side.

He cranes his neck and twists it - looks like maybe PMV. But would PMV cause wing paralysis and blindness? Or is he maybe craning his neck because he can only see out of one eye? 

My big question is...how is PMV transferred? I have him quarantined, but the hospital station is next to my dove aviary - about 5 feet away. Is there any risk of the virus being spread through the air? Or if I make sure to always care for him after feeding the others, and sanitize carefully, should it be ok?

He's definitely not going to be releasable, and will need supportive care indefinitely. I just want to make sure I'm not putting my other birds at risk.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I have been told PMV is not airborne, so as long as you just clean up yourself after handling him.

Whether PMV or not is something which can only be answered by a blood panel. Barring that, as you are an experienced birdkeeper, just doing the usual supportive care (warmth, feeding, hydration) plus perhaps a course of Cipro (in the event the neurological symptoms are being caused by an infection and not a virus) plus worming (in the event the symptoms are being caused by a parasite)....is about all you can do.

I am wondering if some sort of topical on/in the eye would also help. My vets used to prescribe Gentimycin (or called something like that and I think you can get it online sans prescription (?) ) for eye injuries...it was a topical healer and it helped my parrots a lot.

Who knows what caused it really ? Maybe she konked her head or was hit, maybe it's an illness. 
A number of maladies show PMV-like symptoms. Just need to run the course of care/meds and hope that she/he improves.

Oftentimes they will. Fingers crossed that the wing and the eye show some improvement over the course of your care.

Preparing for the likelihood of unreleasability is wise...it may very well be, however, that he/she will not require supportive care all of his life. A flightless pigeon with (worst-case) only one good eye can live a very happy and independent life in a loft or aviary.

Do keep us posted. Thanks for helping !


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

> Distorted pupils are probably caused by Herpes, but the commonest cause of trouble in the eye itself (cloudiness, cataract or blindness) is Salmonella infection - FDW Harper B.V.Sc M.R.C.V.S.


So worth considering Salmonellosis, as wing lameness and twisted neck also occur with that. 

PMV in fact can be transmitted by airborne method, through fecal dust, saliva droplets, virus being shed and being viable in the environment. That's why we isolate PMV cases in a separate room.

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

amoonswirl said:


> Someone just brought me a fledgling feral squeaker that was saved from drowning in the ocean. He's got some issues and I'm wondering what is going on. Hoping someone can shed light on the situation.
> 
> The left wing appears to be paralyzed, and left eye may be blind. The pupil is distorted - not round but more of an egg shape, and he does not blink when a finger is moved very close to the head on that side.
> 
> ...


You looked carefully for signs of trauma that may have caused the damage
just for the sake of ruling things out? Assuming this, Salmonella can cause
damage to the eyes and have CNS signs as well....Baytril or the generic form
would be the medication of choice if so. Though PMV is or can be adversely affected w/antibiotics.

Take care of the sick and/or injured bird after you have cared for the others and be very careful to keep utensils separate and wash hands and disinfect as needed and you should be fine.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You should also always handle a sick bird last : after any handling of the healthy ones.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Can he stand? Walk?

Can he self feed by pecking?

How is his demeanor in these things?


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks everyone!

As for trauma - there is no sign of injury. But the bird was close to drowning when it was rescued from the water. Oxygen deprivation can cause brain damage - or at least I think that is a possibility here. The eye does not appear to have been damaged by any sort of force. The pupil is just misshapen. 

The bird can stand and walk, but has an awkward, lurching gait. The leg on the side with paralyzed wing is also a little bit weaker. No swelling or bruising or broken skin. And all bones feel intact.

It tries to eat seeds, and is somewhat successful, but ends up tossing many of them away because of the neck spasms. It seems to drink water ok. And it has been vigorously preening. It's extremely thin but quite energetic and very alert. Droppings are solid in the center but not coiled. A clear fluid surrounding the center solids, which are of normal color.

I just came home from an errand and looked in on the bird - scared me half to death - it was lying on one side in the corner of the cage with it's head upside down and eyes closed. I really thought it was dead...but when it heard me coming it jumped up, wide awake.

Anyway - Should I put it on antibiotics or wait and see?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi amoonswirl, 


Have a Towel over your lap as you sit...have him on the Towel...use one hand to cup over his Head and or gently steady his Head for him to peck from a small Bowl of Seeds.


Might be PPMV which led to some blunt trauma injuries...might just be blunt trauma injuries...


Are poops like broken 'snakes' and no Urates, just liquid?

Or are there White Urates?


If you lift him by holding him by his back, so he is vertical, does he spread his Wings symetrically? Do both Wings spread out fully?



Phil
Lv


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just adding what I've observed with Rae Charles (blind) and Dom (PMV survivor?)

I notice that Rae will toss her head at times and does some seed scattering from her dish.

Dom has a small nest basket about an inch high with a washcloth over the top. He likes to perch on the edge and stands with his head upside down. When I open the door in the mornings to let him out, his flying exits usually leave something to be desired! He tends to circle and kinda "crash" lands and then does his usual running around roo-cooing up a storm. He has a wing that droops but he can fly some and at least a couple of feet off the floor to land on my bed when he wants. I still don't know if he had PMV or there is some type of other neurological disorder. He always attacks Woe (hen) and Gimie has to come to her rescue and has managed to leave Dom looking like a refugee from a pigeon prison camp until he grows new feathers on his head! *sigh* Dom and Gimie came together as rescues and were in the same cage until Woe came along and took Gimie "away!" 

Anyway, we sure wish all the best for your pij and hope there is a full recovery. He sounds like he is cetainly in the right home!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Update on the poops - he just passed one that looks completely normal. 
But before, yes - "snakes" with no urates, just clear liquid. I'll keep an eye on that. Maybe improper diet was the cause? 

I'll check the wing spread shortly. Just transferred him to a new room because I'm afraid the tossed seeds from his cage might possibly get into the dove aviary which would be awful.

I'll definitely help him to eat so he's getting enough.

Shi, thanks for your observations. My friend Patti had a blind pigeon who also tossed her head and needed to be hand fed because she scattered the seeds otherwise and didn't get enough. It does look something like that...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

amoonswirl said:


> Update on the poops - he just passed one that looks completely normal.
> But before, yes - "snakes" with no urates, just clear liquid. I'll keep an eye on that. Maybe improper diet was the cause?
> 
> I'll check the wing spread shortly. Just transferred him to a new room because I'm afraid the tossed seeds from his cage might possibly get into the dove aviary which would be awful.
> ...


'Classic' PPMV poops are opaque/clear watery syrup around broken 'snakes'...

I have had manyPPMV presumed PIgeons though who made picture-perfect poops and nice white urates.


Time will tell...


Yes, best quarenteen so no tossed seeds or tossed poop fragments can get on shoes or into other cages...wash hands well after handling...


What does the new poop urate look like?

He might have taken on a lot of Water of course, earlier, and is still flushing out his system...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

In pigeons with PPMV the small hard "worm" shaped dropping lying in a pool of urine is the result of constipation and kidney damage (only sometimes permanent) caused by the virus.

This is a pigeon with PPMV *seed tossing*

The chance of a pigeon in another enclosure being infected by the airborne virus are fortunately extremely low. When I have had to isolate a pigeon with PPMV but am forced to keep them in close proximity to another pigeon I place the cages so that they face opposite ways and with a barrier between them.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Feefo said:


> In pigeons with PPMV the small hard "worm" shaped dropping lying in a pool of urine is the result of constipation and kidney damage (only sometimes permanent) caused by the virus.
> 
> This is a pigeon with PPMV *seed tossing*
> 
> The chance of a pigeon in another enclosure being infected by the airborne virus are fortunately extremely low. When I have had to isolate a pigeon with PPMV but am forced to keep them in close proximity to another pigeon I place the cages so that they face opposite ways and with a barrier between them.


The bird in the video is exactly what the "seed tossing" looks like with my patient. He's able to get some seeds into his beak, but then has a spasm and they fly everywhere.

So...this evening we went to dinner with a friend and when I returned to check on this bird...it was asleep *upside down* with legs in the air and head sideways on the floor of the cage. I *really* thought it was dead this time, but no...just fast asleep...

I am very troubled by this. Has anyone seen a bird that sleeps upside down on it's back?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have one presently who sleeps on his back with his Legs sticking stright up in the Air.


Mine has Leg problems of unknown origin...Poops are picture perfect, back injury maybe.

You can arrange some rolled soft cloths set into a 'V', and lay him down that way, on his Back, so his upper Body is at least elevated.

Anyway, make sure with yours, that you only allow Water drinking under supervision.

Steadying his head with your cupped Hand ( him on a Towel on your Lap as you sit ) for him to eat...should work fine for him being able to eat enough.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> I have one presently who sleeps on his back with his Legs sticking stright up in the Air.


Ok, so at least there are other birds who do this. The way this bird sleeps - Either on it's back or on it's side, head down, looking so still - I've thought it to be dead several times now. I'll never get used to it, lol.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

amoonswirl said:


> So...this evening we went to dinner with a friend and when I returned to check on this bird...it was asleep *upside down* with legs in the air and head sideways on the floor of the cage. I *really* thought it was dead this time, but no...just fast asleep...
> 
> I am very troubled by this. Has anyone seen a bird that sleeps upside down on it's back?


A bird with lame wing(s) often cannot right itself if it falls right over, so needs to be put back into proper position. If I had one who does that, I'd certainly provide a 'donut' with towelling, or similar, and put him as he should be. Hopefully it will be a temporary problem.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have never seen a Wing effected by PPMV.


I would guess the Wing and Leg issue are from injury.

They will sometimes insist to hold an injured Wing with as little movement as possible.


Double check the Wing Bones and Joints for swelling or contusion...and stablize the Wing if necessary.

Arrange soft rolled and rumpled Cloths in ways he can lean on or find comfort with.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Either on it's back or on it's side, head down, looking so still - I've thought it to be dead several times now. I'll never get used to it, lol.


A number of my PMV survivors tend to zonk out. Some are OK, they remain standing with the head dropped between the legs, but somedo it lying down (specially when they are nesting) and even after all these years I *always* get that horrible "OMG! Oh, no! Oh no!" moment .


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks all - I have removed the water dish after finding this one "zonked out" with it's head drooping into the feed dish. 

I'll set up a towel donut as well. I still do not see any injury in the wing, but the left wing definitely does not work. In fact, this bird has made no attempt to fly whatsoever. It just runs in circles. the tail looks a bit odd too. will try to get a video perhaps. There is definitely something neurological going on.

Feefo - that OMG moment...so awful & scary! I never will get used to it. But I guess if I did, I'd have to wonder about myself as a compassionate being.

Everyone's advice and commiseration has been much appreciated. I sure hope this little one pulls through - it has so much liveliness despite all of it's issues.

~Karen


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How are the poops?


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> How are the poops?


For the most part, they look fairly normal now, just a little on the mushy side, but no more snakes and clear fluids. Urates are white.

I've been feeding formula to supplement the seeds because the little one is too shy and suspicious to eat much while sitting in my lap on a towel. That could be the reason for the mushiness.

I am afraid to ask this question...but...
Provided this bird makes it "out of the woods," how much longer will he suffer the tremors and other effects? Or might he be like this forever?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Some birds are left with persisting neck twisting and inability to fly, but most in our aviary overcame all the most obvious symptoms not too long after they ceased to shed the virus. Depends how much damage there was in the nervous system when the virus struck. However, a bird may have a recurrence of those problems after months or even years, but without the actual virus being present. 

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If they are shy when on your Lap Towel...use a second light small cloth to cover them lightly, so the 2nd cloth is open on the end where the Seed Bowl is, but covering their head with a little over hang to spare...and you can still gently supprt their Head to prevent Star Gazing...and they should then be able to peck.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> If they are shy when on your Lap Towel...use a second light small cloth to cover them lightly, so the 2nd cloth is open on the end where the Seed Bowl is, but covering their head with a little over hang to spare...and you can still gently supprt their Head to prevent Star Gazing...and they should then be able to peck.


Thanks, I will try that!


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