# Do I have a chance to win...



## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm just starting out with homers. Got a few pairs and some youngs coming in. I plan to fly one loft races only as I live in the city and can only keep so many. I do have another place to breed/raise birds, but training will be limited, or about non-existant because the environment doesn't allow for birds to fly off for periods of time. 

My plan is to send off YB's to the one loft races as in a way that I don't need to do any type of training on them. Same with the OB's. Can I be sucessful this way? 

My house in the city is a normal house with a backyard and neighbors. I can hold 10 birds here comfortably, I guess, for club races if need to. I don't want to get into club racing at the moment. The other place (rented property for multiple use) can hold probably a couple hundred birds, but I don't plan to keep that many. I can breed birds at the rented property and bring them to the house to train/hold-over, or, send off the YB's to the races straight from there. OB's can be at either place until sent off to the races. I'm working on the rotation now. 

My lofts don't have ideal conditions so I think if I'm a good enough breeder/selector, then I'll eventually be OK once I get a routine going. I'll send the birds to the one loft races and let them refine the birds. How does this sound? 

Also, can I be in the money consistantly (one loft races) breeding from 10 pairs or less 1-2 rounds per year (40 or less babies)? Currently, I'm stopping at 20 babies and taking my chances. 

Lastly, I'm just a beginner so I need all the help I can get. Been a breeder long time. Just not racing pigeons.


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## james fillbrook (Jan 2, 2009)

you will have too loft fly so they can get there bearings and what do you mean when non-existant because the environment doesn't allow for birds to fly off for periods of time. and you ill have to train them because even if you do train them they can muck up because when the fly back from yb races they will sit on your roof and them go back in the loft when THEY want and so that will loss time and you will not be in the money unless they win and they will only win if they are stong on the wing and trained to trap fast no training =no win


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Here is where the challenge/fun begins. The challenge lies with not others, but yourself. Everything you can control will be influenced on your thinking and training methods. It will undoubtabley be hard at times, but perseverance and determination will certainly reward you. In the process, you will learn a lot about pigeon racing, as well as yourself, and make great friends along the way. Good luck!


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

where are you located? If you don't race locally how will you know which birds to send to the one loft races.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

james fillbrook said:


> you will have too loft fly so they can get there bearings and what do you mean when non-existant because the environment doesn't allow for birds to fly off for periods of time. and you ill have to train them because even if you do train them they can muck up because when the fly back from yb races they will sit on your roof and them go back in the loft when THEY want and so that will loss time and you will not be in the money unless they win and they will only win if they are stong on the wing and trained to trap fast no training =no win


I think you misunderstand. I don't think he is going to be racing from his loft. He is just interested in sending birds to one loft events. Of course all of the training would be to the one loft facility he competes in. 

I would look at it this way. I would not go into something like this thinking that you are going to win consistently. If you go into this thinking you are going to make money, odds are, you are in for a big disappointment. The Mike Ganus's and Dave Clausing's of the world don't win consistently. I would bet that their one loft and futurity racing probably loose money in the long run. Where they make their money is selling the offspring of that one or two out or a hundred they enter that score.

If you go into this with the intention of bettering your colony of birds by putting them against the best in the country then you are much more likely to feel like you have succeeded. Then if you make a few dollars every now and then allong the way, all the better. Understand though, people do not get wealthy racing in one loft events. The only people that make money consistently, as they probably should, are the people that run the events. That is what they are there for...they are businesses.

Hope I didn't rain on your parade too much!

Dan


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Well put Dan!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think it is too early to start loft racing because you won't know which birds are good to send. That is like sending soldiers to a war and you don't know their capabilities or potential capabilities. As I also understand perch fees and competition fees are expensive, too. How about you race locally first. Then breed your winners together and then perhaps send those young ones to the loft race. At least there is a potential to win unless that was not your intention at all--but rather just to see how your birds you got perform compared to the rest of the competition.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

fastpitch dad said:


> If you don't race locally how will you know which birds to send to the one loft races.


My thoughts exactly?? A very small percentage produce good birds and you may have to breed from many pairs to find one good one. You will waist alot of money if you are not racing locally.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

RodSD said:


> I think it is too early to start loft racing because you won't know which birds are good to send. That is like sending soldiers to a war and you don't know their capabilities or potential capabilities. As I also understand perch fees and competition fees are expensive, too. How about you race locally first. Then breed your winners together and then perhaps send those young ones to the loft race. At least there is a potential to win unless that was not your intention at all--but rather just to see how your birds you got perform compared to the rest of the competition.


The problem here is that he clearly can not race locally, at least that is what he said. In this situation one loft racing may be the only way he has to test his birds, albeit an expensive way! If he has the money and is in this situation, perhaps the one loft races is the way to go. Just be very careful about doing your research before sending birds. There are a lot of operations out there that A) don't know what they are doing, or B) just want to make as much money as they can. Know what you are getting into before committing.

Dan


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Racing in one loft races is like Gambling, birds not in your control.yad a yada. NOT for a beginner. Unless you have, EXTRA cash, Dave


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks for the reply's.

The house is in close proximity to neighbors. Out of respect for them and to be a good neighbor, I would not want a bunch of birds flying around on training days, which could be a lot of days of the week. 

The rented place is on a farm property where lots of crows hang out, feral and wild pigeons feed daily, hawks/falcons circling overhead most hours of the day, wild birds congregate starting about this time until around winter to nest, and other activities of the neighboring properties cause quite a commotion year round. Whenever I let the birds out, it seems they get harassed non-stop. I've never lost a homer, but have lost tumblers and skycutters to hawks/falcons. To their credit, the homers have always outran/outsmarted the predators. But, this is not good for training, as I've had birds circling and not land. They'll come in and get spooked and takeoff and keep circling. 

For these reasons, racing from here probably won't show positive results. 

The one loft races do cost money and they can add up real quick, but a hobby is what it is, and money will always find it's way out of pocket in any hobby. But that doesn't mean I don't aim to make money from these races because I don't want to dish out $500 per race (small races, 1 to 3 birds) and not see anything back. The goal, monetarily, is to not go broke racing. At least try to be in the money enough times so they can keep racing. I want to do one loft because that’s probably the best way to test the birds in my situation. I don’t mind doing $125 perch/$125 entry for 5 birds per year to start, either to one race or five different races. Maybe reality will hit and I’ll stop after the first year if my birds are really bad. 

That’s why I ask, “Do I have a chance to win”. 

For the guys who race or those who know of, for YB's, how many do you hatch to select the 5 or so that get sent?


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Racing in one loft races is like Gambling, birds not in your control.yad a yada. NOT for a beginner. Unless you have, EXTRA cash, Dave


I figure a gamble would be best for a beginner as a person in the know is taking care of your birds. A beginner wouldn't have much control to begin with, so letting somebody else do it may be better than what a beginner can do. I know the odds are against it because in a 400 bird race, you have a 1 in 400 chance of winning if you have one bird, and that's pretty low. 

Unless you're talking about birds being released 20 miles ahead of the rest...in that case, I don't know...


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

windaidedaviary said:


> I figure a gamble would be best for a beginner as a person in the know is taking care of your birds. A beginner wouldn't have much control to begin with, so letting somebody else do it may be better than what a beginner can do. I know the odds are against it because in a 400 bird race, you have a 1 in 400 chance of winning if you have one bird, and that's pretty low.
> 
> Unless you're talking about birds being released 20 miles ahead of the rest...in that case, I don't know...


Like I said before, just be careful about who you do business with. Ask around, talk to people who have entered the race before. See which events have a good reputation and the ones that don't. Do your research.

Dan


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

windaidedaviary said:


> That’s why I ask, “Do I have a chance to win”.
> 
> For the guys who race or those who know of, for YB's, how many do you hatch to select the 5 or so that get sent?


IF and a big IF you are to do this and not lose alot of money you will have to start off with Breeders from someone elses loft who has produced winners from pairs already. Keep the pairs together and send the young out. If you dont do it this way you are basically rolling the dice and you may get lucky but I would highly doubt it. Very few pairs in a new loft produce winners. The majority of a lofts winners come off of a few select pairs. At the age you will be sending the YB's out there is no way to look at them and say out of 30 birds these are the 5 that will go. Especially if you have no idea of how the breeders produce. We race competitively and select Yb's to go to the money race based on past performance of siblings from prior years. It took 4 years of racing before we could even feel confident our birds would be "in the money" Your other option would be to buy YB kits from successful flyers and send their birds but this also is a crap shoot.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Also, I agree with the other comments about being careful where you send the birds. Very important to check with other flyers who have entered a race in past years to see how they felt the race was. There are "rigged" and otherwise "not honest" races out there.


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## Cob Fab Loft (Dec 18, 2008)

Chances of winning is small but it doesn't hurt to try. Enter your birds in the affordable One Loft Races.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Ok. I understand your situation now. If that is so, then you better perhaps start with a known winning breeders. That way there is greater probability that they can give winning or potential winning babies. You probably have to buy birds that already won and breed them together. The way I see it would be expensive hobby for you! Maybe you can ask Warren of SmithFamilyLoft. He likes one loft race.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

RodSD said:


> Ok. I understand your situation now. If that is so, then you better perhaps start with a known winning breeders. That way there is greater probability that they can give winning or potential winning babies. You probably have to buy birds that already won and breed them together. The way I see it would be expensive hobby for you! Maybe you can ask Warren of SmithFamilyLoft. He likes one loft race.


Yes, I highly recommend him!


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## windaidedaviary (Feb 18, 2009)

When would it be too late to send off birds to the races? I mean, if the races are held in October/November, an older bird, hatched in Jan/Feb, has an advantage over one hatched end of March/April. 

I'm looking at some of the one loft races and it looks like most have a 3-5 month period when they are accepting birds. Would it be wise to hold off sending birds if I have some hatched in April? I would think so. The weeks are going by kinda fast.


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

The hatch date would depend on when they start accepting birds. If the bird is to old when you ship it It might be to strong on the wing .


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

When ever they stop excepting, my impression is if they set that end date they should know what there doing to make those birds adapt to the other birds already there. Its a gamble with what ur doing. I like it.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*You got to play to Win !!*



windaidedaviary said:


> I'm just starting out with homers. Got a few pairs and some youngs coming in. I plan to fly one loft races only as I live in the city and can only keep so many. I do have another place to breed/raise birds, but training will be limited, or about non-existant because the environment doesn't allow for birds to fly off for periods of time.
> 
> My plan is to send off YB's to the one loft races as in a way that I don't need to do any type of training on them. Same with the OB's. Can I be sucessful this way?
> 
> ...


 I can't speak to what your odds are, it depends on the quality of the race event and how good your birds really are. One thing for sure, you can't win if you don't enter birds, so don't allow other people's own lack of self confidence... cause you to stay at home ! If you want to be a winner, then you have to act and think like a winner. I would keep it simple. Most of the better events, such as the Winners Cup and the Flamingo, have a series of races up to 400 miles.4 birds will run you $425 + the capital fee for the 400 mile event. You can pay maybe $250 to also be in the seperate 400 event. So a complete 4 bird team in all of the events is around $675 per bird. Send your four bird team and retain the best 1 or 2, and repeat the process the following year. Skip the 400 mile event, and you could send 6 birds for $425 each. If you go say with the six birds, you got $2550 of skin in the game. You can watch the race on your computer...and if you want an idea of the kind of money you can make, check out one example, the Winners Cup. http://smithfamilyloft.com/Winners-Cup.html The format on this race is an "Average Speed" and "Champion Breeder" format. If you end up with a couple birds in the top 16, which causes you to also win "Champion Breeder" you could make thousands over your investment. 

PROJECTED PAYOUT based on 350 birds to race.

1st average speed 20,000 pts. 2nd..10,000 pts. 3rd. 5,000 pts. 4th. 4,000 pts.
5th. 3,000 pts. 6th. 2,000 pts. 7th to 16th. 1,000 pts.

1st. champion breeder 15,000 pts. 2nd 7,500 pts. 3rd. 5,000 pts. 4th. 3500 pts.
5th to 14th. 1,000 pts.

The Flamingo has a slightly different format. There you can win four different races, and the "Top Gun" Award. http://www.flamingoic.com/index.php?SYS_MNU03_00_current_mp=15&View=RaceRules

These are just examples, and two that I happen to like. These types of events, will give your birds plenty of opportunity to shine. And as far as I am concerned, this is the best type of testing, and will help you in your selection process going forard. So if you have the entry fees, then send as many as your like. I would rather send fewer birds to the better races like these, but that's me. Good Luck !


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

What do you fly, I mean what strain?
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

whitesnmore said:


> ...... At the age you will be sending the YB's out there is no way to look at them and say out of 30 birds these are the 5 that will go. Especially if you have no idea of how the breeders produce. We race competitively and select Yb's to go to the money race based on past performance of siblings from prior years. It took 4 years of racing before we could even feel confident our birds would be "in the money" Your other option would be to buy YB kits from successful flyers and send their birds but this also is a crap shoot.


Well....this morning I did something I had never done before. I allowed my wife to select four birds from a basket of about 20. Now, I love my wife, she is attractive, and is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. But, she is a few fries short of a Happy Meal when it comes to pigeons. It has taken me six years to teach her the difference, when she yells out to me, "Honey, one of your brown pigeon's is outside sitting on the pigeon loft, and he wants to get back in"....and for many years, that "Brown Pigeon", would be a Cooper Hawk !! 

As I let her pick out four pigeons from the bunch, I rolled my eyes as she expertly examined the birds....This one is cute, that one has a pretty head...etc etc. I had her write down the band numbers, I placed them in a USPS shipping box, and shipped them as four entry's in this year's Winners Cup !! http://smithfamilyloft.com/Winners-Cup.html

I have not even looked at what pairs they have come from just yet, because I am a little afraid to look !  So, I am either highly confident in all of my breeding pairs, which are in the majority of cases winners themselves, and/or from winners. Or I am a bit on the foolish side, or as I might suspect, she might be almost as good as picking a 30 day YB as a future winner as I am !! In the past, I would have one eye on the bird, and looking for something that pleased my eye, and also I would have another eye on the birds pedigree. At least with these four birds, I will have an opportunity to do a random walk...and see how these four random selections do compared to my trained "expert" eye !! 

Now, in the unlikely event, that she ends up having picked my four best preformers, then I might have to consult with her in all future selections !!!
After all, there was that one time, when she picked the winning number at the Trump Plaza which paid for our weekend !


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....this morning I did something I had never done before. I allowed my wife to select four birds from a basket of about 20. Now, I love my wife, she is attractive, and is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. But, she is a few fry's short of a Happy Meal when it comes to pigeons. It has taken me six years to teach her the difference, when she yells out to me, "Honey, one of your brown pigeon's is outside sitting on the pigeon loft, and he wants to get back in"....and for many years, that "Brown Pigeon", would be a Cooper Hawk !!
> 
> As I let her pick out four pigeons from the bunch, I rolled my eyes as she expertly examined the birds....This one is cute, that one has a pretty head...etc etc. I had her write down the band numbers, I placed them in a USPS shipping box, and shipped them as four entry's in this year's Winners Cup !! http://smithfamilyloft.com/Winners-Cup.html
> 
> ...


Ha! Too Funny!

You watch, you will win the damn thing and bring home all the money and then you won't be able to keep her out of the loft!

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Secrets to a Great Marriage for a Pigeon Fancier*



learning said:


> Ha! Too Funny!
> 
> You watch, you will win the damn thing and bring home all the money and then you won't be able to keep her out of the loft!
> 
> Dan


Dan,

If such an event should happen, I would never tell her that there was money involved !! She might think I was gambling or something !..... And on top of that, if she had that juicy tidbit of information and later wanted to buy something extravagant...say like a new dress or shoes....she then might come back with...You can spend money on those big high class pigeon races, but I can't spend but $25 on a "new" dress at the thrift shop !! 

You see....take it from a man who walked down the isle 3 times..... If you go down this road, and the wife learns little details such as this....there is no end to what this might lead to !! Now, for the younger couples, there is no hope....you got to sell the idea to the wife, and that can be a whole lot of work ! And she will feel entitled to have an equal amount "invested" in dumb stuff like clothes and shoes for the kids. 

Once upon a time, she did have a little idea, that perhaps this "hobby" of mine was costing me a few dollars from time to time. And she told me, that she would rather me enjoy myself with something like pigeons, then to do what some men do at my age, and that is to have a girl friend on the side. So, I said, well I ain't getting no girlfriend.....so is it OK if I do what I have to do, to be sucessful in pigeon racing and have fun, and you can quit your job and stay at home and run the house. I won't tell you how to run the house, and you don't tell me how to race pigeons. She agreed...and we are both very much still in love, and enjoy each and every day !


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Warren, If she picked the winner I will need you to put her in a box and express ship her to my house next race season for a "eyeing and handling" session here. I agree that picking a 30 yb for a race entry is like a stab in the dark sometimes. But it sure helps when you are breeding from proven winners or breeders of winners.
Ken


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

whitesnmore said:


> Warren, If she picked the winner I will need you to put her in a box and express ship her to my house next race season for a "eyeing and handling" session here. I agree that picking a 30 yb for a race entry is like a stab in the dark sometimes. But it sure helps when you are breeding from proven winners or breeders of winners.
> Ken


Well....they arrived there today at : http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
for all the world to see, my wife Karen's "picks" : 20, 25, 32 and 35, since Nine Points Loft apparently is also planning on sending some birds, I just might have to play "Mr. Big" and send another team in order to help even out my odds. If the wife turns out to be a better selector, and her four birds earn more points then my four, well then....I might just have to see about selling her services as a "Selector" ! 

I might sound like a "Smarty Pants", but if I didn't think all of my breeding pairs were capable of producing a National One Loft Race Winner....well then, why would they be in my breeding program in the first place ?!.......

Which takes us back to the start of this thread. How will he ever know how good his birds really are, unless he places them in competition with hundreds of birds from the best lofts in the country, all thinking they have the winning quality birds ?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....they arrived there today at : http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
> for all the world to see, my wife Karen's "picks" : 20, 25, 32 and 35, since Nine Points Loft apparently is also planning on sending some birds, I just might have to play "Mr. Big" and send another team in order to help even out my odds. If the wife turns out to be a better selector, and her four birds earn more points then my four, well then....I might just have to see about selling her services as a "Selector" !
> 
> I might sound like a "Smarty Pants", but if I didn't think all of my breeding pairs were capable of producing a National One Loft Race Winner....well then, why would they be in my breeding program in the first place ?!.......
> ...


FYI...Nine Points is sending his in next week. Not sure of the exact individuals yet, maybe Karen can give me a call!

Dan


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Warren do not forget your wife picked you out of the flock and you got to love that. I hope all your birds fly fast and true for love knows no bounds.

Tony


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL! No Bounds? Tell your Wife you want to breed bison! LOL!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Big T said:


> Warren do not forget your wife picked you out of the flock and you got to love that. I hope all your birds fly fast and true for love knows no bounds.
> 
> Tony


Hey !! Since you put it that way...You are so right !!  Maybe she does know how to pick winners !!


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