# Help! With An Injured Dove!!



## AZfiddler_1996

* Some boys at school brought me a dove that they found outside and it's head is- it looks like it's been peeled off with a potato peeler. It is a shiny, thick black with no feathers and when I first got it its eyes were terrible with green stuff but they aren't anymore.
A big problem is that I go to school in Mexico and cannot cross the dove to AZ to bring it home. I brought it in the building and put it in a cardboard box with a lamp for heat and I warmed up some water and it drank heartily which is good. The dove was not cold. 
I have pictures but cannot post them because I don't know how to resize them but if anyone wants, I can e-mail them and they can post them for me.  
I don't go back to Mex until tomorrow so I did what I knew to do and hope for the best. 
Please give me advice on what to do tomorrow!! Thank you so much.
-Alice 
*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Happy Birthday, precious little Papelito! 
Sugar Cakes, when I see you later today I will tell you everything that I feel right now... 

I love you, Popeye, I love you. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *


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## Lovebirds

send them to me

[email protected]

I'll post them for you.

Renee

PS: don't know where Alice went. Someone else will have to post her pics. I'll be gone most of tonight and all day tomorrow. Sorry. She was on line when I offered but I guess she didn't see it.


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## TAWhatley

Sounds awful, Alice. I hope the bird can hang on until tomorrow and that the members will have a lot of care suggestions for you.

Thanks for helping with the pics, Renee!

Terry


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

You can go ahead and send the pictures to me if you like since Renee will be gone tonight and most of tomorrow .. [email protected]

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Sorry, some of my violin students showed up for lessons and they just now left. I'm going to send the pictures just as soon as I can get them downloaded. I'm waiting for the batteries to charge enough. Thank you!
-Alice
P.S. Pictures sent......


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## TAWhatley

*Pictures Are At ..*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove/

Terry


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

The dove has been pretty well scalped. Take some Betadine or Hydrogen Peroxide with you in the morning diluted to 10 % .. clean the area with either one of those solutions and then apply some antibiotic cream. Keep the bird warm and provide food and water. There's a very good chance this dove will be OK, but it's going to take a really long time for that bare wound to start to regenerate skin and/or scar tissue. I sure wish you could sneak this one home with you, but I truly understand the difficulty and danger of doing this.

Will you be able to continue caring for it at the school?

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, I'll do that tomorrow and when I get back I'll tell how it's doing. (I won't get back till later than normal though since I have a piano and voice lesson over there on Mon and Thurs) 
Well... I can care for it at school and we go to Mex everyday except Sat during the school year because we have church on Sunday. Also, I'll be back over there tomorrow night because we have church on Thursday nights in Mexico as well. But I'm worried about after that- if it gets better will it still be able to live on it's own and be released??? Will it be better by the end of the school year??? 
I hope it'll be ok, thank you for your help.
~Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996

I just thought of something, I will use the peroxide but what is the best way to apply it?


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## Birdmom4ever

Thank you so much for helping this poor dove. I would try soaking a cotton ball or tissue with the solution and carefully dripping a little on the injured area.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Birdmom4ever said:


> Thank you so much for helping this poor dove. I would try soaking a cotton ball or tissue with the solution and carefully dripping a little on the injured area.


 Oh, I'm so glad you're on! What did Terry mean by the peroxide being diluted to 10%? I decided not to ask her because I thought my mom would know but she didn't so now I need to know before tomorrow. And thank you for telling me how to apply it.
Alice


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## Pigeonpal2002

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> What did Terry mean by the peroxide being diluted to 10%? Alice



Hi Alice, 

Terry (female) means that you would dilute the hydrogen peroxide in water. 1 part hydrogen peroxide in 10 equal amouts of water.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Oh no! I'm sooooo sorry! 

Thank you, that was my first thought when I read what she wrote but my mom didn't think so, though she wasn't sure either. I think I'm all prepared now.  
Alice


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## Pidgey

Another thing you might do is try to figure out whether the skin is actually gone or whether it's been traumatized by repeated pecking. Sometimes they get attacked by another bird and just pecked and pecked and pecked. Sometimes, that takes the feathers off and causes a thousand little punched holes in which case it just scabs over, repairs in time and eventually comes back to some degree of normality.

Otherwise, the skin can get ripped and pull back, leaving the skull exposed. In such a case, it's best to clean the wound down to the skull (debriding; debridement), pull the loose edges back together and literally sew it back up or otherwise secure the edges together. In such a case, that can shave a month or two off the healing time (it depends) and make a better job of it. In this bird's case, you would need to closely examine the skin around the eyes to see if there is tension pulling the upper lids backward. If there is, it'd be a strong sign that the edge of the wound has pulled backward on the head.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Poor dove, I sure hope that is not the case but have a strong feeling that it might be. I didn't notice the eyes being pulled back, though on one of them the skin above the eye was drooped downward, I guess kinda like sagging. But it doesn't look like the skin is on the head to me. I'm going to try to get better pictures today after I clean the wound so that you might be able to tell if I can't. 
Alice


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## Pidgey

Well, the skin on their heads is pretty loose. A small cut can turn into a big one by way of ripping very easily--they can even open them up by scratching. It can start as a really small hole and expose a large area of the skull horribly easy. It's a lot worse looking wound than it really is in terms of seriousness but there are a few different things to consider there. We don't need to get into that, now.

Sewing them up isn't as difficult as you might imagine. Once the edges are clean and brought together, it's unbelievable how fast they heal unless the wound has been open too long and/or has gotten infected (birds aren't as susceptible to that as we are).

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'll do my best. And really I'm just worried that I won't be able to tell.


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## Pidgey

Well, the differences in healing strategies probably won't dip into the "mortal wound" category--it's just a matter of whether the top of the head ends up bald or not. Of course, there's a lot more that can go wrong with this bird. Doves are usually a bit on the nervous side in captivity and if it's being too docile, you do have to wonder what else might be wrong (other non-visible injuries, illness).

If there's a big thick scab, then it CAN be really hard to tell because you're not sure what's under it and the general reaction is to not pick them off. It's usually best not to if you're not prepared to finish the job once started, anyhow. What sometimes does work (albeit more slowly) is to pick around the edges of the scab (just like we do on ourselves) and get little pieces off occasionally. On them, it's as if the skin crowds in closer after a little bit (hours; a day). Then, you can pick a little more off the edge and after a couple of weeks, it's all gone (the scab) and you can't tell anything was ever wrong anymore.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'll try that and I should be back on around 2 my time today(I forgot that we get out of school early today). TTYL


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## AZfiddler_1996

Dovey didn't look that wonderful when we first got there. Its eyes were swelled almost completly shut and one of them was completly sealed with a thick yellow something. I cleaned its eyes and the wound (its eyes are pulled back) it wouldn't drink or eat but sipped most of the day. I'm taking something tonight so I can give it water. I "force" fed it a little. It looked better by the end of the day. I have more pictures that I can e-mail.
Off to piano and voice lessons...

Alice


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## Pidgey

Sure would be nice if you could pick up an antibiotic to give the little fellow at this point, at least a topical eye ointment. If you have a pet store nearby, you can get it some Terramycin eye ointment or a "Poly-Neo-Bac" eye ointment.

Not knowing how it got the wounds, it's hard to say whether it needs an oral systemic antibiotic like Amoxicillin or something like that. If we knew where you were (generally; what's the nearest big city?) then we might be able to find or suggest something.

Anyhow, it sounds like the feathered skin over the top of the head needs to be pulled forward after a good cleaning and secured in one manner or another. Personally, I'd suture it back with white cotton thread if you couldn't get a hold of proper sutures, but you may not be willing to do that so we could try doing it with cloth-type medical tape (the old, tough, really-sticky stuff).

The feathers are too dense there for tape to do you any good unless you can make a part (like with hair) and get a running groove to secure a length of tape folded in a longwise "V". You might be able to sweep the feathers forward and make the tape stick to them (use a damp cloth to get the feather dust off the feathers first) and then stick it to the tops of the nostrils (called the "ceres") and even down the top of the beak. You'd have to trim the tape so that you don't cover the nostril holes if you do that and it may work better if you trim the feathers on top of the head so that you can attach the tape mostly to the skin itself.

That's a possibility. The medication for the eyes is more important at the moment.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

You are welcome to keep sending the photos to me if you like, and I will add them to the others. Thanks for all your efforts to help the dove. Hope you can answer Pidgey's post when you get some time this evening.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Would Garramycin eye ointment work? 
Should I get Amoxicillin?
The biggest near city is Tucson which is 125 miles from us. 
I don't see how I could pull the skin, it's all hard as a rock, what should I do?
I sent some more pictures to Terry. 
Alice


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## Pidgey

That's a new one on me--I'm looking it up.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, it's a trade name for the antibiotic called "gentamicin." That's powerful stuff--where did you get that? Have some left over from one of the family's eye infections?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

No, but I can get it across the street from the school. Should I not use it?


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## Pidgey

About the Amoxicillin--the question is, "can you get it?" If so, it might be required. We don't want to have to use antibiotics, but if they're indicated, it's better to have them ready than to spend several days finding them. Since the weekend's coming up, it would be nice to be ready, if you know what I mean.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

You mean in Mexico? Oh, I forgot about that--you can probably get a lot of different things pretty easy there.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I can get it in Mexico. You hardly have to have a prescription for anything- and it's cheaper too.


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## Pidgey

Yeah, I'll bet. Okay, well, in that case, we'll have to think about it. Do you have internet access at the place where Dovey is?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

No, I don't. Wish I did though. So what next? I'm going to be leaving for church in Mexico at 6:30, what should I do while I'm there? I'm going to get some water down it for sure.


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## Pidgey

Well, stabilizing the water and food is the most important. Eye ointment (I guess that stuff's okay) will be the second priority and getting the wound dealt with will be the third priority. I wouldn't fiddle with the wound until I knew he was eating, drinking and not going to die of infection.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

OK, that's what I'll do then. I'm not sure that the pharmacy part of the store is open at night but I'll be able to get it tomorrow morning if it's not.
Oh, and about it being docile, it fights to be held but will sit on my hand, and it fights to be fed but will suffer itself to be touched. It didn't move when I cleaned the wound but really I don't think it could feel anything anyway. I wasn't holding it when I cleaned it. 
Terry got the pictures and said she would add them to the others soon. I probably won't be here but you can still look at them and comment?  
Thank you so much for all your help!!
Alice


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## TAWhatley

Additional pictures are up at: http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


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## Pidgey

Well, those pictures bother me a little bit. The swelling is in the conjunctival tissues and it's possible that the inflammation may spread to being inside the eyeballs. That doesn't mean the infection--I mean the edema. If so, what can happen is that the pressure inside the eyeballs can rise to the point of becoming glaucomic. The net result is that bloodflow into the retina (the lining in the back that creates the images we see) can be reduced and then the result is permanent blindness beginning with the peripheral vision and then down to tunnel vision and then it's over for good.

It's horrible not knowing what forms of medicines you can get and how you should use them. One of the ones that I wish you could get would be Keflex (Cephalexin) capsules-500 milligrams. You'd use one capsule in one cup of water, shake it up like mad (break the capsule to empty the powder in the water) and let it drink about 1.5 ounces of that water, that day, or about 45 milliliters. We really need to know how much water it drinks in a day because we need to get about 80 to 90 milligrams down the bird in about 3 evenly spaced shots and that might be more water than he's going to want or drink willingly. If you'd rather make 5 equal piles and then divide each pile into 3 equal piles, you can give him one of those littlest piles three times per day spaced as wide as you can get. I'm assuming he's a 200 gram bird. The way you'd give him one pile is to roll it in a piece of paper like a cigarette and don't tip it until you can hold his beak open and tip it way, way back into the very back of his throat. Or, if you have a syringe, you can mix the powder with a little water (half a syringe load) and then slowly drop that in his open beak while stopping to let him swallow.

If the medication that you can get is Amoxicillin, then 30 milligrams, 4 times per day. You'll just have to ask the pharmacist what size tablets (better a tablet than a capsule) that he's got and how you can split it up to get a 30 milligram unit out of it.

That's probably about as far as we're going to go with this line of reasoning. I hope the little fellow gets better, but the pictures don't look good.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I _can_ get Keflex. So are you saying that I would give 1.5 oz of the Keflex water a day and 3 oz of water total a day?
It ate and drank tonight but I didn't measure but would guess it was probably almost but not quite 1.5 oz of water. Not at one setting but before and after church which would be 2 settings. The pharmacy was closed but I'll get what I need tomorrow morning. 
If it takes Keflex would it still need the Amoxicillin? I sure hope it lives and doesn't go blind!!


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

Do the Keflex .. I talked to Pidgey tonight and we need to get the two of you in touch .. Bless you again for caring for this bird.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Alice,
> 
> Do the Keflex .. I talked to Pidgey tonight and we need to get the two of you in touch .. Bless you again for caring for this bird.
> 
> Terry


 The Keflex- does it need to be given only once a day? If it is more than once I only have from 9am until 2pm to give it. And it's terrible because I cannot give it anything for 19 hours after we leave Mexico except on Thursdays. What do you mean by getting in touch? I had another question but right now my brain is wacko and I can't remember it.
Alice


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## Pidgey

Well, that's a deal where it's kinda' tough--it needs it spread throughout the day on that particular drug. If it were Ciprofloxacin, a once-a-day shot works pretty well but that's not quite the right drug here, I think. You need to spread it out as long as possible. Just out of curiosity, does this bird have a waterer that it drinks out of on its own? If that's the case then you can probably leave it that way--you give it a bunch with the water through the day and leave some in its water for the rest of the time.

Are you seeing any signs that it can still see?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Last night she went in circles trying to get away from the spoon of water that I was trying to get it to drink. It saw out of that eye, I'm not sure about the other one. It keeps them shut half of the time and if one is open then the other one is usually shut.
I don't know if the bird would drink on its own but I'll be sure to leave some. But I'm still confused about the dosage. I want to put it into the water not just give the powder though I could do that if it's preferred. But how much does it need a day? 1 pill or 1.5 oz of the Keflex water?
Also, how should I give it today because we are going to be going over there tonight b/c 6or7 guys are coming from a Bible college in Mex to stay during Easter break to work on the church. Which leads to another problem- today is the last day of school until April 25th. We will be going to Mex during this coming week off and on b/c of the guys and maybe even daily if my brother is going to go help them work, I'm not sure if he is or not. Maybe I could find one soft-hearted-toward-animals guy that would take care of it while I'm not there?? I don't know but God will take care of it all........


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## pigeonkid1046

How is he??


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## AZfiddler_1996

Well, I'm not sure this morning but if you want you can look at yesterday's pictures that Terry posted a few posts up. Not too good at this point...


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## Pidgey

Probably the infection getting worse. If it were me--I'd divide the capsule up into piles like I outlined and give him the medicine straight over three shots divided as well in the time I had as possible. That is, five equal piles and then divide one of those into three equal piles, given as close to 8 hours apart as possible.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

It's highly likely that he won't make it if he doesn't get "round the clock" care, at this point. He's probably going to need warmth, food and water administered at regular intervals through the worst of it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

That would be the Keflex, by the way.

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever

Hi Alice,

I don't have anything to add to Pidgey's excellent medical advice, but I'll be praying for someone who can help the dove while you can't be there. Also for wisdom for you in every aspect of this situation (James 1:5). At least meds are readily available in Mexico. Bless you for helping this little dove. 

It seems typical of doves to intensely dislike being held (it's too much like a predator ready to devour them, I'm sure) but to not mind being touched. Our ring-necks will sit on your hand and let you pet their breasts. 

God Bless,

-Cathy


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## Pidgey

Well, small report as I've had a few telecons at this point. There's both good and bad news: Good news is the bird's been preening so, at least, it's not currently systemically in bad shape. The bad news is possible keratitis--inflammation of the corneal tissue on one side. Alice got some eyedrops with Gentamicin so hopefully that can catch the keratitis before it runs away too far although it sounds bad (no clear pupil--opaque and yellow).

The drugs are more expensive than anyone thought--a twelve-pack of 500 milligram Keflex was going to be $17; Cipro worse. Her mom thinks they might have a Flagyl at home--my thought there was that it's good in necrotic tissue and it has a curious side-effect of moderating the immune response besides being an antibiotic. What I'm worried about is the cornea becoming necrotic and causing something like happened with Unie eventually requiring enucleation.

There is a possibility that a local doctor may have a sample that he'll be willing to part with for the Keflex. Gotta' wait and see on that one.

Oh, I forgot to mention that in case the bird goes blind in the one eye, she's hoping to find it a home with someone there that she knows. That's always part of the considerations in a case like this.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I sent some of today's pictures to Terry. We have Levaquin and Tetracycline, would they work if I can't get the doctor tonight?
Alice


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## Pidgey

I'd tend towards the Tetracycline because we know that works in birds. What's the form and size?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Levaquin (Levofloxacin) is similar to Enrofloxacin and Ciprofloxacin in that it's a Fluoroquinolone, but I've never heard a dosage rate for birds.

Tetracycline covers a few Streptococcus and in another place I saw that it has activity against Staphylococcus species as well. We're just not sure what you're dealing with here. This one wouldn't have been my drug of choice by a long shot.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

250 mg capsules

One of the pictures from above the bird doesn't look like a very good picture but it was the best I had and it shows the shape of the left side of the beak compared to the right side. Something is wrong with the right side, it looks swollen?


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## Pidgey

Did it look swollen when you were with the bird or do you think it's a trick of the camera/picture?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Levaquin (Levofloxacin) is similar to Enrofloxacin and Ciprofloxacin in that it's a Fluoroquinolone, but I've never heard a dosage rate for birds.
> 
> Tetracycline covers a few Streptococcus and in another place I saw that it has activity against Staphylococcus species as well. We're just not sure what you're dealing with here. This one wouldn't have been my drug of choice by a long shot.
> 
> Pidgey


 Well, I can still try the docter as long he's there. I will try my very very very best to get the Keflex.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Did it look swollen when you were with the bird or do you think it's a trick of the camera/picture?
> 
> Pidgey


 It's swollen or something. I tried to get a picture of it but they didn't turn out good. The one I sent to Terry shows nothing but the shape.


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## Pidgey

Give the dove one-sixth (1/6) of the Tetracycline capsule (the powder inside), twice daily. It's indicated usages include skin and soft tissue infections. You can probably put the powder in the back end of a syinge, put the plunger in part way, point it up and carefully push the plunger in most of the way, suck up a little water, pull the plunger out just a tad to make a bubble and shake it till it's well mixed and serve.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Where exactly is the swelling? Have you had a look inside the bird's mouth to see if there's any discoloration or cheesy bumps (Trichomoniasis)? Now would be a real bad time for that to show up, but very typical as well.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Where exactly is the swelling? Have you had a look inside the bird's mouth to see if there's any discoloration or cheesy buttons (Trichomoniasis)? Now would be a real bad time for that to show up, but very typical as well.
> 
> Pidgey


 It is on the right side of the botton beak in about the middle but closer to the head than the tip of the beak. I didn't look in the mouth but will be sure to do that tonight. I didn't _notice_ discoloration in the mouth but have no idea about the throat...


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## Pidgey

That's what the Flagyl (Metronidazole) is good for, by the way. 10 to 30 milligrams per kilogram, twice daily. If you can get a hold of one of those 250 milligram tablets (some places sell them for using in fish tanks--pet stores and feed stores), you'd need to dissolve it in a small bottle of water of a known quantity like 78 mls. Then you can draw 1 ml into a syringe and give it that twice a day--you just have to shake the fool out of it right before you draw the sample (no delay--use your thumb over the opening so you don't have to screw the cap off).

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I just called the only pet/feed store in town and they don't have it...


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## Pidgey

Well, these things happen. It's sometimes called "FishZole" when used that way. Anyhow, that's one you may need to ask the local pharmacies about. If that's what's causing the swelling in the jaw, it's imperative because it will kill a dove. They're real susceptible to that. One pill will carry you through the entire course (but two would be nice). If you could find a homing pigeon racer in your area, you might be able to beg/borrow/steal some (though there are several meds that will work for that like Ronidazole, Secnidazole and others).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Incidentally, if your pet store carries bird supplies, just ask them if they have anything for "canker".

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

The only pigeon racer that I know sold all of his birds (he had 260) to a guy to feed his snakes b/c his wife developed an allergy. But I'll call him anyway and I'll call the feed store back to see if he has stuff for canker. He's not really into birds but rather horses- but there's always a chance.
If I cannot get it from the doc along with the Keflex then I'm going to try my hardest to buy some from the pharmacy but if that's the case it'll have to be one or the other... which would I get??


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## Pidgey

It depends on what's causing the swelling. If you look inside the mouth and there's a strong discoloration and any cheesy stuff, you're going to have to go with the canker medication because that's awful. I'll go fetch a link and you can see what it's capable of.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Here's the page--just scroll down and there's a link to show her little dove with the jaw partially eaten out:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14567&page=3

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

*Updated Pictures Are Up ..*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> It depends on what's causing the swelling. If you look inside the mouth and there's a strong discoloration and any cheesy stuff, you're going to have to go with the canker medication because that's awful. I'll go fetch a link and you can see what it's capable of.
> 
> Pidgey


 I tried calling several times but got no answer anywhere. I sure hope Dovey doesn't have canker. I don't think it does but I really don't know for sure and I have no idea why else the beak would swell. We haven't been able to leave for Mex yet because of an emergency but I know that we _have_ to go to clean up for those guys.
-Alice


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## Pidgey

Comprendo.

C'est la vie'!

Well, use what you've got that we've talked about and do your best. Put some more drops in while you're at it.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

But... my dad's still down there dealing with this stuff and it's already 8pm and when he's does get home he's going to be all tired out and- and what if we don't go tonight??!?!?


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## Pidgey

Well, it'll have to wait. How far away is it? 

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

How far away is what?


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## Pidgey

We probably need to get the bird (at the earliest convenience) to someone to take care of while you're not there. Someone who can apply the medications at the proper times, feed and water, etc. If the bird has to stay on that side of the border, it's the only way.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

How far away do you live from the bird's present location?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Straight from here to the church in Mex it's only 15 min.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Did you see the pictures?


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## Pidgey

How soon can you get back? Tomorrow? Do what you can, when you can.

Gotta' go to bed!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Yeah, I did. There's definitely edema and it's held steady for awhile. I can't make out the swelling that you're talking about, though. Is it under the feathers?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'm hoping for tomorrow. Thank you so much, Pidgey, you don't know how much I appreciate your help. And thank you, Terry, for posting all the pictures for me.


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## AZfiddler_1996

If you look at the 1st new ones you can see a red circle around the eye. All of that is swollen pretty bad. Maybe you can compare it with the 3rd from the last? It is a picture of the other eye.


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

Bless you for all you are doing for this dove. Is there no way to sneak this dove into the US? I don't want you to take any chances, but we've got to get this dove somewhere that it can get regular care every day regardless of whether it's in Mexico or the US.

You've already done an awesome job of helping.

Just keep doing what you are doing .. though the bird looks really rough still today, I would like to think I saw some improvement .. posture better, more comfort, etc. and you are to thank for that.

Please continue to post and send pictures whenever you like .. I got a bit more organized with the pics tonight and should be able to react quickly to any future pictures.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

No, there's no way to bring it home.  We didn't go to Mex last night and I'm sure the guys are probably already there where Dovey is... I hope they don't do anything to it! They were not expecting to be sharing there living quarters with it. Anyway, I'll do the best I can and I'll keep you posted. Thank you!!!!!
Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996

*two questions...*

Good morning. From Alice's Mom. I have 2 questions for Pidgey. The capsules in the Levaquin bottle were not levaquin. They are red and yellow and contain a white powder and are either Amoxil or Erythromycin. If they are amoxil, they are 500 mg.; if erythromycin - either 250 or 500. There are no markings on them as they are from Mexico. Can you identify the antibiotic for me? Second question. Since levaquin is 'similiar' to cipro and the dosage is once a day - would it be feasible to put the dove into a trial of medicine - as I do have 3 levaquin giant tablets - 500 mg. from Mexico? I can grind a half tablet up between 2 spoons. It will be nearly impossible, if not totally impossible to find someone in Mexico to care for the dove. However, if it recovers, I think we can find a home for it over there. It is also likely that one of the young men we have not met yet will help a little. We will know more later. Thank you so much!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

*P.s.*

I forgot to tell you that last night the pigeon guy called me back and he said that all he had was stuff for chickens.
Triple post- sorry!
Alice
P.S. We're leaving for Mexico in 15 min! I'm taking that Tetrawhatever-it-is and the asprin. Pidgey, please call me when you wake up (hurry up sleepyhead!  ).
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

I was up and away early!

Anyhow, Alice called me and we discussed some things over the phone in the presence of the doctor that she was hoping to get the drugs from. She had me on speaker phone and he seemed to understand English although he only spoke in Spanish. I told her that if he wasn't particularly busy at the moment that she should trying charming him into helping. That was before I knew I was on speaker. Well, that's the way the deal went down so the doctor's going to try clearing the wound and scab and get the skin pulled forward. 

A lot of times, the scabs over injuries are your best friends and sometimes they're your worst enemies by way of keeping infections alive if they're trapping infectious debris inside. I also had him look at the orb of the eye to see if he thought the bird would end up blind in that side and his prognosis is hopeful. The report is that there might be a reduction in the swelling anyway so maybe with the Gentamicin eye drops and time the infection is beginning to lose.

Anyhow, this story's beginning to go the right direction.

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley

Good work Pidgey and Alice! I hope things go well for the bird from here on out.

Terry


----------



## Maggie-NC

Well I just gotta say that Pidgey and Alice (and her mom) deserve a big round of applause from everyone. I know that it is still a vulnerable and iffy situation but this dove may make it yet.

Pidgey, just a special note that I don't know what we'd do without you. It can't be easy on you looking up all this info and advising us what to do. You do have a life but I am so grateful to you for the help you give me.

PIDGEY FOR MODERATOR.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> I was up and away early!
> 
> Anyhow, Alice called me and we discussed some things over the phone in the presence of the doctor that she was hoping to get the drugs from. She had me on speaker phone and he seemed to understand English although he only spoke in Spanish. I told her that if he wasn't particularly busy at the moment that she should trying charming him into helping. That was before I knew I was on speaker. Well, that's the way the deal went down so the doctor's going to try clearing the wound and scab and get the skin pulled forward.
> 
> A lot of times, the scabs over injuries are your best friends and sometimes they're your worst enemies by way of keeping infections alive if they're trapping infectious debris inside. I also had him look at the orb of the eye to see if he thought the bird would end up blind in that side and his prognosis is hopeful. The report is that there might be a reduction in the swelling anyway so maybe with the Gentamicin eye drops and time the infection is beginning to lose.
> 
> Anyhow, this story's beginning to go the right direction.
> 
> Pidgey


 He cleaned the surface but would not take the scab off afterwards. He said that it is already missing skin and that if we took the scab off it would probably rip more skin off? He doesn't seemed to be worried too much about the infection; 
He told me to grind up the pill and put it in a baby bottle with 40 ml of water and to give it 1 ml 3 times a day. He put the antibiotic ointment on the wound after cleaning it with some red stuff and diluted hydrogen peroxide but said not to put it on there anymore (the ointment). He said the pill would take care of the infection and the ointment would get on the feathers and prevent insulation and therefore heat. He said to put one drop of the Gentamicin in each eye 3 times a day. 
I looked in the birds mouth and saw nothing that I could identify as canker. It is a dark blue/purple and pink and I didn't see anything unusual. It's beak is still swollen and the doctor said that it is only swollen from the infection in the wound.
And, Pidgey, the doctor said to tell you thank you for caring for animals so much. And I have to tell you thank you in particular for caring for this one! Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooo much for all your help and time!!!!!!!! 
Alice


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## Pidgey

Yeah, it's kinda' hard to tell from the pictures what the extent of the damage is. I guess the "scab edge picking" technique is what you're going to have to do. If a wound is accessible to a bird's beak, they'll usually take care of that themselves. As it is, it'll stay there for a very long time and impede final healing unless someone slowly picks at it. "Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue."

Well, Alice, you're the hero here--it's your little charge, not mine so the bulk of the credit goes to you! But, you're welcome, anyhow.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

"Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." 
lol I'm glad you didn't talk that way to me- I'd never of understood you without a bunch of dictionaries.
I'll start picking the scab then. I completely forgot about the asprin, does it still need it? And does the antibiotic need to be refrigerated? When we go over again today we're going to take a refrigerater. 
Well, I could never have done it without your help.
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Yes, I think I'd keep that one in a refrigerator. I don't know that you have to, but it never hurts. The aspirin will just help a little bit, with the swelling and it might help the bird be a little more comfortable.

Another thing you might consider soon is that when the bird starts feeling better, he's going to want to fly and that might mean "away." Usually, you start fighting that problem before the war is won so you need to consider restraint shortly. With wild doves, they often get jumpy when they're caged and start feeling better so one strategy is to line the top of the cage with foam--our member Phil (pdpbison) came up with that idea because he's had more than one bump the living crap out of their heads from popping up in the cage when startled.

That's about all I can think of for the moment.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

We are fixing to head over to Mex to take the fridge. I'm going to try to get some pics if I have time (still gotta clean up). And I'll give it a half pinhead of asprin hopefully Dovey looks better than it did this morning. Maybe he's done a little preening since then. TTYL


----------



## Pidgey

Forgot to mention the obvious, by the way: The one thing that this little fella' does NOT NEED is to be bumping his head onto something--OUCH!!!

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever

Kudos to Alice and Pidgey! I'm so please you were able to get this dove to a vet, Alice. Great work.


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## Pidgey

Oh, that wasn't a vet--that was a real doctor. For humans. I don't think they're as eaten up with pride down South of the border.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Pidgey said:


> Oh, that wasn't a vet--that was a real doctor. For humans. I don't think they're as eaten up with pride down South of the border.
> 
> Pidgey


I wondered about that .. thanks for clarifying, and please .. Alice you thank that doctor from the bottom of your heart and tell him that all of Pigeon-Talk thanks him too. 

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'll be sure to be careful about that, Pidgey. That would be terrible!  I have something over right now that I could probably use for a cage. I hate to take my cage over because they don't allow you to bring bird cages back out since the bird flu. (I found that out the hard way, my toss basket is stuck in Mex. They used to let me take my birds into Mexico since they went back home but the last time they turned us around and I had to let my birds go on "No Man's Land" inbetween the 2 borders but the US turned us around again b/c of the toss basket and now its stuck in Mexico. But I guess its not all the bad, Dovey can use it even though there's not much room at all.) 
Birdmom4ever, I'm extremely happy for the doctor's care too! He was very kind and caring and just gave me the medicine after looking through all his drawers and stuff and he cleaned the wound for me and told me what to do... kinda like Pidgey.  
Terry, I was planning on writing him a letter to thank him and I'll print your post out for him if you don't mind.  Also, I sent you some more pictures that I took today. 
Dovey looked very well when I went over there last to give it its medicine (take the fridge over). It appears that the swelling has gone down nearly completely in its left eye. The right eye is still yellow but the swelling has gone way down above the eye and isn't really red there anymore. It is still swollen underneath the eye. 
I gave it its antibiotic, the drops and the asprin and hope that it will sleep just splendid tonight. I told the guys to leave the lamp on all night (when I got there they had turned it off) and they said ok, so that's taken care of.
Oh, what about a name????  Thanks again, everyone!
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Birdmom4ever, I'm extremely happy for the doctor's care too! He was very kind and caring and just gave me the medicine after looking through all his drawers and stuff and he cleaned the wound for me and *told me what to do*... kinda like Pidgey.
> Alice


I never tell people "what to do"... I merely "make suggestions".

NOW, GO EAT YOUR VEGETABLES, YOUNG LADY!

Seriously, finally getting that head fixed may take awhile. And a funny layer of soft, fried egg-like material may form between the eye and the eyelid that will eventually either fall out or have to be removed manually. Pus in birds is a lot thicker than it is in us. Just keep an eye on it.

As to names, that's a lot worse than trying to figure out what medication to use. Popeye? Scalpy?

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

As to names, that's a lot worse than trying to figure out what medication to use. Popeye? Scalpy?

Pidgey[/QUOTE]


LOL, so true. I am running out of names lately too.
Popeye sounds great.

Thank you, Pidgey and the DR. You did a great job, great teamwork.

Reti


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> I never tell people "what to do"... I merely "make suggestions".


 Hey it's not all that bad to tell people what to do, you know. If you know your stuff then they can put all their trust in you and then if anything goes wrong that can shift all the blame on you.  




> NOW, GO EAT YOUR VEGETABLES, YOUNG LADY!


  



> Seriously, finally getting that head fixed may take awhile. And a funny layer of soft, fried egg-like material may form between the eye and the eyelid that will eventually either fall out or have to be removed manually. Pus in birds is a lot thicker than it is in us. Just keep an eye on it.


 I'll keep an eye on it but will it be a noticeable difference from what it is now? I'd have to take it off with the rounded tweezers, right?



> As to names, that's a lot worse than trying to figure out what medication to use. Popeye? Scalpy?
> 
> Pidgey


 Every single vote (all 2.000,000,000,000,000 of you) went to Popeye so Popeye it is.  
Alice


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for the update, Alice. Sounds like things are still on the upswing for Popeye! I'll have to get the pictures up a bit later and will post when they are available. You are welcome to print out my tiny little post for the doctor if you like.

Terry


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## Pidgey

As to the tweezers--yeah, just like we discussed. There is another thread going right now where the bird's eye resolved and this type of thing came out on its own eventually. 

Thread: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14738

Relative Post: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=122524&postcount=80

You know, we started this thread on how to fix the missing/displaced skin and now we're back after the wild chase to turn the tide on the infection. You might want to go back through the thread and re-read some of that stuff.

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever

My bad--I somehow missed that it was a human doctor who saw the dove, not a vet. Even more amazing! Dovey's progress sounds encouraging.


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## TAWhatley

*Updated Pictures ..*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove/

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Yesterday Popeye was doing a lot better and seems to be getting his appetite back and is more alert and interested in what is going on around. While I was over there the Doctor walked into the room! He had come back to see how Popeye was coming along! He wanted to look in his yellow eye and he seemed really relieved and said it's not crushed.  He didn't tell me _that_ on Saturday- He said that he was afraid that the pressure could have crushed it, if I understood him right. 
But Popeye is doing well and one of the 6 guys always gives him his medicine when I'm not there. So far I've been able to be there at least once a day and we are supposed to go over at noon again today to cook for them. One thing that I'm not happy about is that he loves human attention... I don't really want him to become tame because I want to be able to release him back into the wild where he came from. If push came to shove I could find him a home but that _definately_ would not be the ideal thing. He would probably end up in a small cage and never let out to fly with nothing but parakeet food... not out of meaness, it's just that they don't understand over there.
Alice


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## Pidgey

Well, we'll have to assess that when the time comes. I don't keep doves, wild or domestic and so I don't know how easily they can become imprinted. They do make less poop though, so that's a plus ("less is more!"). When they're simply sick, it's pretty easy to keep your distance and not imprint on the bird. When they're hurt and you have to manipulate them a lot, it's tougher. If they're smart enough to figure out that YOU are the one that's making them better, then they will definitely imprint. However, some of them are okay with that but once they're feeling good enough to be about their own business, they will say "thanks and goodbye!" You just never know.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, we'll have to assess that when the time comes. I don't keep doves, wild or domestic and so I don't know how easily they can become imprinted. They do make less poop though, so that's a plus ("less is more!"). When they're simply sick, it's pretty easy to keep your distance and not imprint on the bird. When they're hurt and you have to manipulate them a lot, it's tougher. If they're smart enough to figure out that YOU are the one that's making them better, then they will definitely imprint. However, some of them are okay with that but once they're feeling good enough to be about their own business, they will say "thanks and goodbye!" You just never know.
> 
> Pidgey


 It was hard to win the trust of my doves, at least a lot harder than with pigeons and once they trust you, you've still got to win their love and affection. But with Popeye, well, it just doesn't seem that way.  But even though it's hard,  I'll still try not to let him know how much I love him. I sure hope he ends up saying, "Thanks and goodbye!"
BTW, I'm reading the threads you attached right now and I've got some ?'s about the other posts that you posted.
Alice


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## Pidgey

Here is a link to a picture of Izze's eye that looked so bad:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/549402782/2384609110073664377RuvZYJ

It later recovered to look much more normal, but the vision was lost.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Webshots is always blocked by our web filter but I saw the pictures in a link in one of the links you posted me. 
Popeye's eye was/is very similar, maybe the same except that Izze's seems to have cover the whole eyeball, Popeye's never covered all of it. Also, Popeye's was/is more of a milky yellow than that. Izze's is more like an orange yellow compared to Popeye's. Oh, also the Doctor said yesterday that it would fall off on its own on account of the drops.
Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey wanted the measurements of the wound, I'm not sure that I did a very good job but....

From *cere to* end of *wound*= *1 1/4"*
*Feathers between *cere and wound= *1/4"*
Wound *width between* the* eyes*= *3/4"* it goes all the way down to the skin that is around the eyes on both sides.


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## Pidgey

How big is this bird? Would you say that those measurements are from skin-edge to skin-edge?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Width wise, yes. But on the length it doesn't go all the way forward b/c there is a 1/4" tuft of feathers between the cere and the wound. But it does cover the top of the head on the other side of the length if you know what I mean?


----------



## Pidgey

Well, how's the rest of the bird today?

You may want to start picking at an edge of the wound here soon. I had one that had a pellet lodged in the wing surrounded by a large, necrotic plug. I started using forceps to slowly chip away at the edges over a period of days and the surrounding skin and tissue just filled in behind. This continued until I finally found and removed the lead pellet in the middle. I'd put NeoSporin on it and chip away a little at a time. The NeoSporin softens it a little but not a lot. That nasty, stinking scab-plug started off the size of a quarter. I took about two weeks reducing it down. I probably could have done it faster but I might have risked a hemorrhage due to the fact that it was on the wing.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, how's the rest of the bird today?
> 
> You may want to start picking at an edge of the wound here soon. I had one that had a pellet lodged in the wing surrounded by a large, necrotic plug. I started using forceps to slowly chip away at the edges over a period of days and the surrounding skin and tissue just filled in behind. This continued until I finally found and removed the lead pellet in the middle. I'd put NeoSporin on it and chip away a little at a time. The NeoSporin softens it a little but not a lot. That nasty, stinking scab-plug started off the size of a quarter. I took about two weeks reducing it down. I probably could have done it faster but I might have risked a hemorrhage due to the fact that it was on the wing.
> 
> Pidgey


 I need to know what I can pick with, I've tried picking and can't get anything off. I don't remember seeing a scab on a bird but this one seems to be part scab and part dried blood? I mean like if it bled real bad when it got hurt and the blood ran over its head and dried there. I don't know how to tell for sure but that is what it seems like to me.


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## AZfiddler_1996

I've not been over there today but was there yesterday. The yellow eye isn't yellow anymore but it has changed to a dark color. You still can't see through it, it just changed colors. Also, the other eye is not red anymore, it changed to a dark color as well. The iris part. 
Popeye seemed cold yesterday which he hasn't been up until now. I didn't like that part at all.
I was worried about the guy who gives Popeye his medicine that he might be having a hard time or wasting it (not getting it all in) because I never got the chance to show him how. So last night since he wasn't busy and I was over there I asked him to do it for me. He did it great and I probably couldn't have done it better myself. 
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Well, for picking, I use forceps. Regular tweezers are almost useless. The forceps I use are essentially a tweezer with teeth. If you look at a pair of needle-nosed pliers, you can see the little grooves that make the teeth. Tweezers like those are the kind that I'm talking about and not the kind that you'd use to pluck a hair with. You might be able to find something like that in a drugstore or you might just use a sterilized pair of needle-nosed pliers.

Poor bird--sure has been through a lot already!

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, for picking, I use forceps. Regular tweezers are almost useless. The forceps I use are essentially a tweezer with teeth. If you look at a pair of needle-nosed pliers, you can see the little grooves that make the teeth. Tweezers like those are the kind that I'm talking about and not the kind that you'd use to pluck a hair with. You might be able to find something like that in a drugstore or you might just use a sterilized pair of needle-nosed pliers.
> 
> Poor bird--sure has been through a lot already!
> 
> Pidgey


 Well if push comes to shove, I'll take a pair of needle-nosed pliers b/c I know for sure we've got those. What is the best way to sterilize it?



> Poor bird--sure has been through a lot already!


 You could say that again! He sure has a lot of patience.

Alice


----------



## Pidgey

The best way is heat (pass it through a flame) but if they're out of a toolbox, you might need to clean off dirt and grime with household cleaners first. I'd probably coat them with NeoSporin while working with them.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Will do that. Where should I start picking? Just any edge? Should I go in a circle to the center or from 1 side to the other? (A little at a time, of course)
I'll let you know how it goes.
And what can I do if Popeye is still cold today?
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Well, just start with the sharpest corner of the scab (whatever) and don't take off anymore than a piece a little bigger than a BB. You can see tomorrow how well that worked and go from there--it's a learning experience and patience is a virtue.

Usually when they're acting cold you can arrange things to warm them up more. Either a heat lamp, a heating pad, sunlight, even tucking them under a blanket for awhile at a time. You just have to keep a close watch to make sure they're not heading downhill with an opportunistic infection.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

*Oh no!*

Popeye's eyes were swelling when I got there today! Especially the right one but also the left. The right eye is yellow yellow again and it looks a lot thicker. The left eye looks very dull and dark. Not at all the bright happy red it was on Monday. The swelling in both eyes was down by the time I left which was about 4 hours later.
On the other hand, Popeye's poop was normal today. He wasn't cold either, maybe because it was a scorching day today. 
I wish there was something more that I can do. Popeye seems to have patience but not the burning desire to heal... poor thing sure has put up with a lot...
And then the guys over there keep saying he won't live and that I shouldn't have taken him in... but the one guy gives him his medicine consistently, what more could I ask?
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

You'd better see El Doctor about that one. I was hoping that we were out of the woods on that aspect but this one is dancing too closely to eventually going blind. We'll be very lucky if that doesn't happen, I think. I suppose it could be possible that there is a reaction to the drops that might warrant a medication shift to a different eye ointment. Also, the bird may be scratching with its feet (they do that) and getting crap in its eyes that we don't want right now.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

ooooooooooooooh...


----------



## Pidgey

Embedded foreign objects will usually suppurate (fester) and need to be removed. That's one of the reasons why you usually want to see what's under the scabs, especially if they're not healing quickly. I wrote that in Victor's thread about how they finally pulled off a scab and found a piece of gravel in the wound. It's possible that there is something under that scab that's a constant source of infection. In such a case, that kind of thing has simply got to come out.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

So is your suggestion that I completely remove the scab? If it is, what is the best way to go about that? Will it bleed bad? When it's off what should I do?

I should be going over there sometime around an hour, and I feel I really need to do something. Popeye doesn't seem to be doing too well at all. I haven't seen him preen since Saturday and he looks rather sad. 
He has an appetite. I'm still "force" feeding him though it's not much like force; he's getting to the point of opening his mouth when I put my hands on his beak. 
I don't want him to go blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pidgey

No, it shouldn't bleed too bad because the only blood flow to that area is through the local skin. The skull is essentially on its own. Believe me, I know how badly you don't want the bird to go blind.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> No, it shouldn't bleed too bad because the only blood flow to that area is through the local skin. The skull is essentially on its own. Believe me, I know how badly you don't want the bird to go blind.
> 
> Pidgey


 Thank you, Pidgey, I really appreciate your understanding. Popeye doesn't cry, but I'm afraid I make up for it...

So I should take the scab completely off? How?


----------



## Pidgey

Little by little. I didn't want to do it that fast but the clinical picture is beginning to look like there could be something under there. Actually, it's around the edges that your worst problem may be. It might be enough to get those cleaned up and doused with NeoSporin.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

What I mean by that is to literally grasp little flakes of the edge of the scab and tug them gently off with the implements that we've already described. There might be more contamination on the side that's done the most swelling. You can take a wet paper towel or Q-Tips and swab the area with antibiotic salve or diluted Betadine when you get a piece removed. Just take it slow and easy. Anything that you pull off of the top of the head probably won't generate much, if any, pain.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

That makes sense. So will I do all the edge, just a bb size, or just the right edge today?


----------



## Pidgey

Mostly any edge that looks suspicious. That means: anywhere that looks edematous (swollen). Sometimes, you get started on that kind of stuff and it gets pretty obvious the further in you get what's wrong. If there's pus and discoloration (not pink) then it's almost a dead giveaway (sp?).

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

OK, if I run into any trouble I'll call you.  I'm not sure when we're leaving now. I hope soon.


----------



## Pidgey

You also want the doc to see those eyes if possible.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I will try my best but I don't know if he'll be there.


----------



## TAWhatley

Bless you Alice and Pidgey! Alice, you have been such a trooper with this bird (and the bird has been a real trooper too). I hope you will have a good outcome for the bird, and please do keep us posted.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

We just got back from Mexico (it's 1:35am!) and Popeye looks a lot better. His eyes are not swollen but they still look bad. We (Alan was very kind to help me) picked the scab on the right side above the eye and it looked very normal I think. There was nothing strange that I saw. I'm sending some more pictures to Terry.
Alice
P.S. Pictures sent.....


----------



## Pidgey

When you say the eyes are swollen, you mean the tissue surrounding the eye, right? But, also, when you say the eyes still look bad, you are definitely talking aobut the orbs themselves, right?

For your information, if actual eyeballs swell much at all, it will usually cause blindness due to loss of blood supply to the retina because the pressure inside the eyeball becomes too high for blood to pump in. Now, that means inside the main orb. The corneal portion is a separate chamber.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> When you say the eyes are swollen, you mean the tissue surrounding the eye, right? But, also, when you say the eyes still look bad, you are definitely talking aobut the orbs themselves, right?


 Yes and yes.


----------



## Pidgey

Did she get to see El Doctor yesterday? Does she see to peck at all? Or does she seem to see you?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Did she get to see El Doctor yesterday? Does she see to peck at all? Or does she seem to see you?
> 
> Pidgey


 No doctor.  I'm going to try again today though. She doesn't peck at all and the only indication of sight was in the left eye, you know how they will turn their head to look at something since their eyes aren't in the front? She did that once. I don't know if it can actually see out of it or not though.


----------



## Pidgey

I sure don't like the sound of that. She's only getting the Gentamicin drops in both eyes, three times per day as well as the Ampicillin three times a day, right?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Right, and the 1/2 pinhead of asprin.


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## TAWhatley

*Updated Pictures - Apr 14, 2006*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Terry.


----------



## Pidgey

It's going to be a real miracle if that poor dove will still be able to see after all of this. Go and read this post and some ways down the thread after it. There is a picture of a bird's eye with a remaining synechiae discoloration:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=106253

Just have a look and see if that's similar to the way this bird's eye looks.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'm not sure. We're leaving right now for Mex and I'll look closer.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye's eyes looked a lot better today and he seemed a lot better as well. Both the left_ and _the right eye had the beautiful red peeping out from under the nasty yellow stuff. I'm pretty sure that he can see out of the left eye though I don't know for sure.
We took off the whole scab and here are some pictures though they aren't that wonderful. (Pidgey told me how to fix the pics to attach them! Thank you, Pidgey! And thank you, Terry, for posting all the others for me!)

Alice
P.S. Pidgey, I forgot to tell you that what we have is povidone-iodine solution, 10%. I'm going to take it tonight and if you don't get this before then I'll call you.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, that's starting to look a lot better then. Alice had called me a couple of times--once while the scab was coming off. It seemed to me from a lot of the things that we'd been talking about on here, in PMs and on the phone, that there was some plug of nasty stuff that was harboring the enemy. That's why the decision was made to find it and get rid of it. 

When they were taking it off, there was one end of the scab that had a plug of something that went down into a "hole" which I'm guessing means that a necrotic plug went down under the skin. That's been removed now and the entire wound cleaned with (generic) Betadine and covered with a NeoSporin type ointment. Hopefully, that will finally turn the tide once and for all on the infection in the area, including that which has spread to the eyes.

This bird's sure been through a lot and is probably going to turn out like SweetSpirit's little Nicobar. I'm going to go fetch and paste a link to that thread here so that Alice can see that from start to finish:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13139

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley

Hey, Alice .. sounds like good news! Please do continue to send me the pics though .. when we are through, we will have good pictoral case study for others.

I'm so glad the bird seems to be doing OK ..

Terry


----------



## mr squeaks

Healing thoughts being sent! We're all pulling for you and Popeye!


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## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye gave me tons of "birdie kisses" tonight!
I'm very afraid that he can't see out of either eye because I would put my hand in front of the left eye and he wouldn't do anything, but as soon as I would touch his beak he immediately gave me a bunch more kisses. 
He seems just as bright and happy as he did this morning when I went over, it didn't take him long to get over the shock of the scab removing process. lol I think he got over it faster than Alonzo and I did. 
I took some more pictures after I cleaned it and they show a bit more detail. I can't see the hole anymore. Terry, I'll send you the pics tonight. Also, I'm going to try to get some pictures of the scab sent... if I don't fall asleep first.  
Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

mr squeaks said:


> Healing thoughts being sent! We're all pulling for you and Popeye!


 Thank you!!

I'm going to send the rest of the pictures to Terry this morning.

Here is a picture of the wound after I cleaned it and also one of the scab. 
Alice
P.S. That is the right side of the scab.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, that's starting to look a lot better then. Alice had called me a couple of times--once while the scab was coming off. It seemed to me from a lot of the things that we'd been talking about on here, in PMs and on the phone, that there was some plug of nasty stuff that was harboring the enemy. That's why the decision was made to find it and get rid of it.
> 
> When they were taking it of, there was one end of the scab that had a plug of something that went down into a "hole" which I'm guessing means that a necrotic plug went down under the skin. That's been removed now and the entire wound cleaned with (generic) Betadine and covered with a NeoSporin type ointment. Hopefully, that will finally turn the tide once and for all on the infection in the area, including that which has spread to the eyes.
> 
> This bird's sure been through a lot and is probably going to turn out like SweetSpirit's little Nicobar. I'm going to go fetch and paste a link to that thread here so that Alice can see that from start to finish:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13139
> 
> Pidgey


 Poor Nicobar!! I'm glad Popeye didn't look that bad when I got her! SweetSpirit sure did a good job of taking care of him/her. Did Nicobar end up bald?


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Alice, you are doing a wonderful job with this sweet dove. It sounds as though he's feeling a little better, though disheartening about his vision. I sure wish there were a way you could take him home.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Boy, you don't know how much I wish I could bring him home! But I can't. Actually it wouldn't be hard to cross it, seeing they know us from passing through everyday for 28 years and wouldn't suspect anything but the problem is that I would have to lie. When you come out they ask you 2 questions, are you all US citizens and are you bringing anything out of Mexico. I cannot lie because God said not to and there is no way I could. He's done and does so much for me! But God is good and he cares about all of His creation which means both me and Popeye. No matter what happens, even if Popeye goes blind, God is there and knows what's best... and I trust Him. He will take care of what I can't.
Alice


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## Birdmom4ever

I know you can't lie, Alice, and I understand why. I wouldn't, couldn't lie, either. It just makes me so sad you can't bring the dove home. I've been praying that God would provide a loving home for him in Mexico if that's what is required. I'm sure He's working through this situation in ways we can't even imagine. Have a blessed Easter.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Birdmom4ever said:


> I know you can't lie, Alice, and I understand why. I wouldn't, couldn't lie, either. It just makes me so sad you can't bring the dove home. I've been praying that God would provide a loving home for him in Mexico if that's what is required. I'm sure He's working through this situation in ways we can't even imagine. Have a blessed Easter.


 I love Popeye so much and I really wish he was here at home with me right now and forever, but I didn't find him in AZ and God has a reason for it. I'm sure He's working in many ways as well, he had a reason for allowing Popeye to get hurt in the first place. He didn't hurt him but allowed it to happen. Actually, it's pretty amazing to see the reaction of the people over there. They all knew I love animals but it's just weird. A lot of them like animals but I've never seen that that special care there. It's so sad because about 3 weeks ago I saw this horse by one of the kids houses and the girl told me that the horse didn't belong to anyone but isn't afraid of people- the horse is literally starving to death. The girl just said that the horse was gross and let it be. She's got nothing against horses it's just that one that's starving is "gross." I mean, I'm sure she couldn't do much considering the conditions but TLC does a lot. Anyway, God will take care of it all and all I can do is my best for poor Popeye. And then Alanzo (one of the 6 visitors) has taken a great interest in Popeye and he's the one that offered to help me with the scab... he raises fighting roosters and fights them- you know how that is. He was shaking too bad so we had to switch for me to take the scab off and him to hold the bird. And then there is all the reasons you can't see........... these are just caring for animals and life isn't about animals, God created us to give Him pleasure (Revelation 4:11) and unless we are fulfilling what we we're made for we aren't really happy. But God made all of the animals to give us pleasure, and boy, they do!



> Comprendo.
> 
> C'est la vie'!
> 
> Well, use what you've got that we've talked about and do your best. Put some more drops in while you're at it.
> 
> Pidgey


 La vie est dure mais Dieu est bon. 
Alice


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## Pidgey

Well, so where are we at this point? I'm hoping that the reduction of bacteria-supporting material will allow faster healing in the eyes.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Hello, Pidgey! Did you see the new picture of the wound and scab on the other page?


----------



## Pidgey

Not yet--what other page?

Oh! That page! Yeah, I just looked at it. Looks about normal for that kind of thing. I guess it's the dark spot behind and above the left eye that you were talking about that sliver coming out of, huh?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'll look... 
Oh, on the scab. Yes.
Oops. I'm confused, are you talking about the wound or the scab? The sliver came out of the right side, not the left.


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## Pidgey

Hands were shaking, huh? Can't help your body from thinking that you're going to unplug something important. Don't know what to tell you--if you'd seen some of the things I've watched my vet do, you'd get a little harder, too.

As to your earlier question about baldness, it's likely that will happen in the middle unless some cosmetic surgery is done later. There's no skin there--it'll have to regenerate with scar tissue. We'd joked about a wig for SweetSpirit's Nicobar. In a more Northern clime, it can be a legitimate concern in the winter. I suppose we could go with a ball cap, though.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I think I got my confidence from you since you're the one that said to take it off. Good thing mine weren't shaking too, _then_ what would we have done?? Got you a plane ticket.


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## Pidgey

You going back over there again today sometime to see the dove again?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Yes, we've got a youth meeting over there today. The 6 guys have to leave tomorrow after 5pm... that means I've got to figure out something about Popeye's medicine...........


----------



## Pidgey

Yeah, it does. We're also hoping that he'll get to the point where he won't need that anymore as well. That should be here pretty quick if all goes well.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

But how quick?


----------



## Pidgey

Well, we could see the local inflammation begin to subside within a day, the external eye problems resolve in two or three days, and the top seal over with a scar membrane within a week or two. 

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

So how long will he need his medicine? The way it looks now, Popeye's had both the drops and the oral medicine 3 times a day since I got them. The last time he'll have them will be his 2nd time on Sunday. I go over on Monday 1 time for a piano lesson(can't sing....and that is _torture_!!!) and normally wouldn't be going back over until Thursday. I'll have to fix that somehow. But probably the most I can go over is once a day. and then that has its own problems...


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## Pidgey

Well, it may interest you to know that, medically speaking, antibiotic ointments often slow healing. It's true that they can stop bacterial growth and that's sometimes necessary (like here) but they still slow repair. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a little more in stock, if possible, but it's almost time to let the body start taking over.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, it may interest you to know that, medically speaking, antibiotic ointments often slow healing. It's true that they can stop bacterial growth and that's sometimes necessary (like here) but they still slow repair. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a little more in stock, if possible, but it's almost time to let the body start taking over.
> 
> Pidgey


 Yeah, I read that in one of the threads you attached. So what should I do?


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## Pidgey

Well, start the search for another pill for one thing. You're probably not short on the drops, though. However, you're watching for the local edema in the eyelids to go down. When they start going back to normal, you know you don't have to give any more medicine.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

After looking at the picture again, I'll tell you this--the very quickest way to solve the healing problem would be to pull the skin border on the back half of the head forward and suture it to the front part. It's almost the same as I told SweetSpirit in that thread only in this case it'd be easier. However, what a person might run into is the problem of it may need to be reopened and debrided again later. Since there technically isn't any soft tissue over the skull there, it really ought to be fairly easy to scrape that clean (edge of a scalpel), disinfect it and then pull the skin forward after disengaging the fascia that will be holding it down.

As bad as that sounds, the only real difficult part is gaining the stomach to do it. It'd be a wonderful job for you and El Doctor (I've got great respect for him, by the way, and you can tell him I said that next time you see him).

Believe me, I've sutured up a few heads before. When they get cut across there, it virtually always opens up a football or circular shaped hole. One straight cut can do that.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Is there any way I can do it myself? I'd rather not impose on El Doctor if it's possible...


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## Pidgey

Well, it depends on how bad your help is shaking...

It involves suturing which you can do with plain cotton thread if you must. The very worst part is getting the skin on the back of the head loose. There is a membranous tissue called "fascia" that forms, connecting skin to the tissues beneath. Some places, it doesn't form much at all and in some places it gets pretty thick. Its job is to keep stuff from sloshing around. The back of the head is one of those places that it's pretty thick. 

The surgical technique for disconnecting it is to insert the scissors straight in while they're closed and open them up. That will tear the fascia. There isn't any feeling in it so it's not a painful experience. You would want the right kind of scissors, though, and they definitely need to be sterile. The right kind is small with no sharp points. Curved would really be nice in this case. As to suturing, you'd need a sharp needle. It's a lot better if it's curved (real sutures are wonderful). The thing to watch is to pull the wound closed but not to pull it together so tight that it restricts blood flow at the sight of each individual suture.

On this particular job, you'd be looking at about a good solid hour or more seeing as how it be your first time. The unfamiliarity causes indecision which leads to delays in going on each time something new (like a drop of blood) is encountered. And, you might just start shaking yourself. It really isn't that easy when it comes to poking things inside living creatures (scissors, needles). You just have to figure out whether you can stomach that or not. Were you planning on going to medical school?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Well, I guess the first thing is to make sure I have an hour. Come to think of it, I think I will. And I just called Alanzo and he didn't hesitate to say yes. Medical school? No, but it looks like I might have to if I'm getting into this stuff at 16.  
But you've got to give me details enough to where I understand, if I understand I think I'll be alright until it's all over with.  
Alice 
P.S. It's gotta be done tonight since Alanzo leaves tomorrow and he's the only one that can stomach it... or is willing to try to stomach it.


----------



## Pidgey

Essentially, our skin is a big, body shaped bag. You can kinda' pull it away in some places, and other places it's stuck down pretty tightly. On the top and back of your head, it's stuck down pretty good. There are a multitude of little membranous webbings that are holding it down. When you're trying to get skin out of the way, these membranes are holding it in place. Once they're disengaged in the area we're talking about, it would be a fairly simple matter to pull half the circle over to the other half. I'm taking pictures right now of the type of scissor that would work in this procedure.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

There are two pictured here, but one is curved, the other straight. What's the closest thing you have?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

All we have is straight with pointed edges or kids scissors that don't??
So are you saying that I would "cut" both the back and the front skin and attach them in the middle? And then would what I need to disconnect would be the white circle around the wound?
P.S. Can I get them at Wal-mart?


----------



## Pidgey

In looking at all the pictures, I can't help but wonder if that darker red spot over the left eye is just a small pool of blood or whether there was a crack in the skull there?

Anyhow, the stages of the procedure would go something like this. 

1) Scrub the area clean with a 10-to-1 dilution of water to Betadine--make sure all Neosporin is off. Clean the local feathers as well.

2) Detach the back half of the circle of skin from the skull--that is, incise between the skin and the skull in case it's already stuck down.

3) Detach under the skin with the scissors by inserting the closed point straight in (following the curvature of the skull downward) about an inch and opening to break the fascia. You will probably need to do three sweeps--one in the middle and maybe a couple of smaller ones on either side.

4) Make sure that the skin will pull forward to the other skin edge without too much traction (hard to explain that but you'll understand when you do it). If there's too much, you will have to go deeper on step 3.

5) Put the first stitch in at the dead center of the wound from the center of the back to the center of the front. Let the skin hang loose while you're putting the thread through both edges and pull tight with one overhand knot. Then you add successive overhand knots to hold the stitch in place. You need to grab at least 1/16" of skin when piercing the skin on each edge. In this case, less is not more--more is better. Only tighten the stitch enough to do little more than oppose the two edges. If you tighten the stitch too much, it will "necrose" or kill the tissue that's been tightened down too much.

6) Finish outward on both sides. There will probably be a pucker at each end and that's okay for now. The spacing should be about 1/8" apart.

7) Keep the wound dry.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Strictly speaking, you're not going to cut any actual skin. That entire ring that you see in the pictures (the gray edge) won't get any actual cuts in it. You'll just be "lifting" it off the skull. It's the stuff underneath that you'll be breaking apart. Think of it like tape--the skin is the film (plastic layer) and the fascia is like the adhesive. Only, in this case, the adhesive is like a bunch of thin membranes of bubble gum (like when you blow a bubble).

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

*Updated Pictures - April 15, 2006*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey, We're leaving in 15 minutes, what is the latest I can call you? And can I get the scissors at Wal-mart?
Alice


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## Pidgey

Look at the picture and study it with this in mind--the big red area is probably skull. The gray-blue looking edge all the way around is the edge of real skin. All you may be doing is detaching the back half of the gray-blue circle and pulling it foward to the front half and securing it.

You can think of it like this: imagine a pillow case on a pillow with a dime-sized hole. In this case, the edge of the hole all the way around is glued to the pillow. If that glue is detached, you'd be able to put your finger in and wallow it around between the pillow and the pillowcase. How's that?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Maybe something like it--there are some funny kinds of scissors in make-up and personal grooming kits. But, if you're not completely clear on this, then you don't need to be doing it.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Maybe something like it--there are some funny kinds of scissors in make-up and personal grooming kits. But, if you're not completely clear on this, then you don't need to be doing it.
> 
> Pidgey


 I understand except for 2 things. Am I supposed to pull the skin all the way across to the other side? In other words the front of the wound or only to the middle? And exactely where do I stitch the skin to?
What is the latest I can call if I have problems? Thank you, Pidgey! And if I'm not clear then I just won't do it.


----------



## Pidgey

You're going to pull the back all the way to the front--there's too little in the front to stretch. We're not even going to try detaching the front half at all. You're going to stitch the edge of the skin to the edge of the skin--that's all there is to stitch it to.

You can call as late as necessary if it comes to that.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

OK, that makes sense. And your other post makes sense too now except for the "Finish outward on both sides. There will probably be a pucker at each end and that's okay for now." Can you explain that before we leave?


----------



## Pidgey

Well, the first stitch goes in the very middle. That leaves too slits to have to stitch up after that one's tight. They will already be mostly pulled together. Those are the "finish outward" lines that you'll have to put more stitches in. The pucker is the extra flesh that's going to sort of gather at the end of each slit. You'll see if you do it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

For the pucker, just imagine what it would be like sewing up a dime-shaped hole in a piece of cloth.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

OK... I'm going to do it. What about scissors? If we can't get some similiar will the kid scissors work? Or would the other regular scissors with the sharp edges be better?


----------



## Pidgey

I don't like sharp points for this but kid scissors seem too blunt. There are some scissors in grooming kits that have little round balls (but flat) on the front tips. They're usually not very long, though. You might can find something like that to start and then switch to the kid's scissors although the kid's scissors that you're talking about might not be the kind I'm thinking they are--just get and use the closest things to those in the picture. And don't forget to sterilize them with alcohol, the Betadine or fire.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

We didn't have enough time to do it, only about 20 minutes.  I feel so bad because Popeye needed it done and now I've lost my help.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, while it would help, it's not the end of the world that he didn't get it done yet. You might still be able to get some help, anyway. El Doctor might have an easy day coming up. It would be pretty simple for him. Anyhow, I tossed and turned in the wee hours worrying about it. One of the things that I forgot to mention was that you'd want to use the needle pointing inward towards the top of the head for the stitches over the eyes. That is, you'd want to pierce the skin edge that's over the eyes from the direction that protects the eye the most (least likely to pierce the eye in a slip or move). That would mean that you'd keep the needle in the plane of the top of the head, or always pointing towards the top of the head. Often, forceps are used to hold the skin edge upward a little bit to facilitate piercing the skin with the needle held parallel to the body instead of pointing down into the body. Of course, suture needles are curved for that very reason.

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley

Pidgey,

Any chance that one of the synthetic skin products would be useful in this case for covering that large area on the head?

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

That's another route but it will also result in baldness. That works best when you're trying to keep exposed tissue from desiccating or getting infected. It needs to be tacked down (sutured) on the edges as well to keep them from scratching if off.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye seemed just the same today, his perky little self. I forgot to mention that when I cleaned the wound yesterday there was a thin, yellow, plastic-like layer of something covering it. It came right off. 
We just sent away Alanzo (my help). He wants pictures of Popeye when he's healed... hopefully when I release him. 
Both eyes look just the same as they did on Friday. No change.

Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Yeah, your efforts at starting that would probably heal back up fairly quickly. When they're not busy fighting an active infection in wound tissue, it gets about its business of trying to close up fairly quickly. You can, at this point, allow a sealing scab to reform as it's not an infected mess. That would technically be better even than NeoSporin now.

Was Alanzo absolutely the only help you had? Who's giving the medications now?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

So should I not put on the antibiotic ointment anymore? The 3 younger guys left last night and the other 3 left this morning. I'm fixing to go over there now and then again sometime between 2-5 today. That's it. Alanzo was the only one that could stomach working with the wound but actually Jorge (left this morn) was the one giving the med. What can I do about the medicine? Does he still need it 3 times a day? Tonight will be the first time he doesn't get it when he's supposed to since I got the medicine... 
Alice
P.S. And should I keep cleaning the wound with the Betadine or Hydrogen Peroxide?


----------



## Pidgey

As far as I'm concerned, you can stop giving the Ampicillin now so let the last practical dose be the last one--it's not going to help anymore. As to the eyes, that's a tough one. I'd probably let that slip as well if you're not going to be able to keep it up. You're going to have to keep watch on the eyes to make sure that they don't start getting worse, though.

I'd review the threads for Monica's Izze, Unie and AZWhitefeather's Rae Charles. There are a few other folks with blind birds on here and you might as well start building the environment for a blind bird. That is, to create an unchanging houseplan with bowls of water and food and start working on how to teach Popeye how to find his food and water with limited vision. I think you've been feeding him the hard way for quite awhile now and so it's time to see if we can teach him to find bowls and work on it himself. That way, he can at least eat and drink if his people visits start getting less due to the limitations of help.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'll do that, when I was over there this morning I got mad at myself for not thinking about it earlier when there was someone always there to help him learn. But I guess it's too late to worry now, I've just got to work with what I have. My dad said we could go tomorrow to take care of Popeye which makes me even more sure that I'll be able to go over at least once a day. 4 down and 3 to go. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday I'll be over there. So now I've just got to worry about Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. School starts back a week from today.
I put Popeye in the "cage" I have over there just to be sure since nobody is there now. I put a water bowl in it even though he, of course, doesn't know how to drink from it yet. 
His eyes are the same except the left one didn't appear as sunken(sp?) in. 

Poor Popeye...

P.S. I forgot to say that his wound is harder now. I took 3 pictures before the batteries went dead. I don't know if they're any good or not but I'll post them when I get them downloaded.


----------



## Pidgey

The only way their eyes appear truly sunken in is if one or both of the fluids inside the eyeball (aqueous and vitreous humors) have leaked out through a puncture or perforation of some kind. If you're saying that because the tissue surrounding the eye is actually decreasing in swelling, that's another story and that's a good thing.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

No, the left _eyeball_ was sunken in away from the eyelid.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, in that case, let's talk about the darker red-colored spot above the left eye in the pictures. Is that just a blob of dark red blood that looks like a pit or do you think that it's an actual pit. I'll tell you what I'm thinking it could be--the orbs on birds are generally quite large in relation to their heads (relative to ours, for instance) and I worried when I saw that dark spot that it could indicate that the top of the left eye had, in fact, gotten punctured. In a case like that, it will eventually deflate and break up. Pieces of debris would eventually have to be dug out of the eyesocket. I had to do that with Unie and it's almost identical to how her illness went. Also in that case, the vision of that eye is gone forever.

Probably the best way to figure that out is to look from directly over the top of the bird's head or from dead on down the beak to see if the eyeballs are symmetrical. If that left one is drooping inward, you now know the true extent of the damage from the original wound.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, in that case, let's talk about the darker red-colored spot above the left eye in the pictures. Is that just a blob of dark red blood that looks like a pit or do you think that it's an actual pit. I'll tell you what I'm thinking it could be--the orbs on birds are generally quite large in relation to their heads (relative to ours, for instance) and I worried when I saw that dark spot that it could indicate that the top of the left eye had, in fact, gotten punctured. In a case like that, it will eventually deflate and break up. Pieces of debris would eventually have to be dug out of the eyesocket. I had to do that with Unie and it's almost identical to how her illness went. Also in that case, the vision of that eye is gone forever.
> 
> Probably the best way to figure that out is to look from directly over the top of the bird's head or from dead on down the beak to see if the eyeballs are symmetrical. If that left one is drooping inward, you now know the true extent of the damage from the original wound.
> 
> Pidgey


 I don't exactely understand.......
When we took the scab off, Popeye's head wasn't umm... "flat." It was more like the surface of the moon or earth with high and low places. Where the "pool" of blood was (if I'm thinking of the same place you are) it was a low place. An indent.


----------



## Pidgey

And that spot isn't where I'd expect an indent to be--I'd expect it to be the top of a dome where the orb is. Was it symmetrical with other side (a corresponding indentation)? 

With respect to your seeming shrunken eyeball, another possibility is that the surrounding tissue (the eyelids and such) have been swollen for awhile and, therefore, it's as if there is an excess of skin tissue. That can make the eyelids not work properly for quite awhile until all that tissue shrinks down to its original size. It took Unie's a long time to do that (couple of weeks). That's the result of edema. Only you can tell if that's the case here by taking a good look at it and figuring it out.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I looked at the picture and it didn't show what I was thinking about. What I was thinking about was an indent toward the front of the head that went clear from the right side to the left side. The back right side was lifted up like a hill. I'm still unclear about what your mean. I do see the place that you're talking about though.
_Maybe_ it was just excess skin tissue since it appeared less sunken today...


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## Pidgey

Of course, we really want the orb to be intact since that's the only way you have a hope of sight. I didn't take digital pictures of Unie when her eye was swollen and that included the peripheral tissue as well as the actual orb. It took a very long time for it to normalize. The actual line of the eyelids that we associate with the eyelashes will, at first, make a 'lettuce-edge' before they start shortening up to normal. That'll cause them to seem to pucker out and ruffle a little bit.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I think that's how Popeye's are. I'll take pictures of the eyes when we go over for my lesson today.


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## Pidgey

Take them at the highest possible resolution, use the most zoom and send me the entire picture(s)--I'll do the cropping and processing.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Ok, I'll do that. We should be leaving in about 1/2 hour for my lesson. I need to go find the stuff anout Unie, Izze, and Rae Charles before I leave....


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## Pidgey

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10728


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## AZfiddler_1996

We just got back from Mexico. I saw the Doctor go into his office so I ran Popeye over. He looked at the eyes and without exactly saying it, he said that Popeye is permanently blind in both eyes. He said that otherwise the eyes are ok though and that the infection is under control. My lesson is here so I'll have to write later....
I'm back on. Reti, nobody is there to take care of Popeye now, the 6 guys that were there were only visiting. I'm trying to go over once a day until school starts back up.
Well, teaching Popeye to eat was definately not as hard as I expected- it took me a total of 10 secs! Poor Popeye though, sometimes he would peck outside of the bowl at the air and got confused at why there weren't any seeds there. I guess now it is just a matter of him getting used to where the food bowl will always be. He doesn't walk around much, I think he is afraid to. I couldn't get him to drink so I went ahead and watered him and will try again tomorrow.
Alice


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## Reti

This is sad. Poor baby.
I hope you will find her a good perment home.Is the guy who is caring for her going to keep her?

Reti


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## Pidgey

Well, that doesn't surprise me too much although I've always held out hope. Try to remember everything that he said as to why and let us all know. I'll tell you right now that it takes more-than-your-average-commitment to make a good life for a blind bird. If it's an otherwise normal female, it can successfully raise children and that's a good thing if you've got the setup to allow it. Unie has us, Rae Charles has her chums and Cindy and Izze has Monica. As I've said, there are other folks on here (Terry Whatley included) who have blind pigeons and every setup is different. 

It's so nice if they can have company or somebody takes them for a walk and other outings. Life can be pretty miserable if they're all alone, even if they've got adequate food and water. Please consider this fully when you make the decision for a home. Hopefully, if you explain it fully to the customs folks, they'll just arrange a time for you to pass right through and you can get the bird back to the US if you don't think there's a good home across the border.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

If Popeye picked up finding the seeds that quickly s/he will also learn to do the water. My blind birds are totally self sufficient when it comes to eating and drinking .. even after all this time they still do the "air pecking" deal a little bit before they hone in on the seed or water bowl, but once they locate the food and water it's a done deal. I tap on the bowls with my fingers to help them find the bowls by the sound .. amazing how quick they picked up this little "hint" and took action.

I do so hope you can find a way to get Popeye into the US or find him/her a good home in Mexico.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Yeah... I guess it didn't surprise me too much either. El Doctor said that his eyes didn't respond to light. He said that he couldn't see and probably wouldn't be able to. 
Right now I do not know of a good home for Popeye. Maybe there's someone on PT in Mexico? Also, the Doctor told me there's a good vet there that loves animals- maybe, just _maybe_....
Popeye will be with me until school ends in June and he'll definately get attention.


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## Pidgey

Well, how do the eyes actually look at this point and I mean specifically the pupils? Are they still blotted over with discoloration? If that's the case, I can easily understand how they wouldn't respond to light. However, if they're getting pretty clear and they don't respond then it's more likely that it's not going to get much better. Frankly, it was a bad sign all along that he wasn't moving around much.

Anyhow, in order to teach him to move around and start going for his food and water, you want to use sound (the tapping of your fingernail on the bowls) to educate him. You can make the sound while he's eating out of the bowl and again when you start educating him to water. You may have to push his head and beak lightly down into the water so that he can learn to start sucking it up.

You can look at the pictures of Unie's setup and see how things are arranged. That never changes and she knows her way around. All you have to do is make a landscape (even when they're blind, they still like to have something to step up and perch on) with the food and water in one area (in Unie's setup--other blind birds on here have different ones, of course) and the nest in another.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Alice, you're doing a remarkable job with this little dove. Do you think the good doctor could figure out a way to get him through customs?


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## Pidgey

You might want to resize that picture to make it smaller. It'll eat less memory that way. Another thing you might try is standing back just a little bit further--can you see how the stuff that's just behind the bird is in better focus? That's the "depth of field" kicking in. Anything that's too close just won't be in focus.

Anyhow, in looking at that eye, is the pupil illuminated because of flash and, therefore, actually relatively clear at this point? It looks like I can see the iris with flash shining back like "redeye" in people?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I e-mailed you a bunch of pics... better get them and delete before someone wants to write you...


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## Pidgey

Well, I'm going through them. Even with a high-speed connection (here at work--it's "after hours") it's still taking some time. Out of all of them, I'd say the one that you'd posted (and then removed) was probably the best. I've got plenty of room in that emailbox, though.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

That wasn't the flash... I wrote a long post yesterday but was unable to send it. Anyway, in my post I describe that as a yellow "light" in his left pupil. That's what it looks like- inbedded, not floating on top.


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## Pidgey

Well, that might be the synechiae (scar tissue that can build up in the lens or the back side of the cornea of the eye). that I mentioned the other day. That would be a real reason why the doctor might have said that he would be permanently blind.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Oh.  What about the right eye?


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## Pidgey

Well, I haven't seen a picture with enough detail to figure that out. Perhaps you could describe it in great detail? Incidentally, it's not unusual for birds to get cataracts after a bad infection like that. You can do a search on that and study it if you want to find pictures for comparison.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Search on PT or google? The right eye still has that yellow stuff floating on top. It covers all of the pupil (pupils are big in both eyes) except for the top right "corner." It covers most of the eye.


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## Pidgey

No telling what's underneath that. It sure would be nice if the eye underneath were in better shape than the other one but that's really stretching.

Google.

Here's a webshots link to a couple of versions of that one picture (which was the best):

http://community.webshots.com/album/549402782FkDUkZ

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I google it then. 

Our web filter won't let me go to webshots.


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## Pidgey

I know but YOU don't need the picture because you've already got it.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

oh. lol


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## TAWhatley

*Updated Pictures*

I think Alice has already posted all the new ones in this thread, but I did try to catch up on getting all the pics in one place again:

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

*!!!!!*

* My brother and I took the bus to Mexico today since the plate expired on the car. Popeye was ok despite the fact that I was unable to go yesterday. He still wouldn't drink on his own and when I gave him water with the syringe before we left he drank a lot. 
We had to catch the bus to come out and when we were walking out the words came out before I could stop them.
"How much does it cost to import a bird?"
"A what?"
"A bird."
He turned to look at the guy sitting next to him and said, "Do we do that?" 
So they called a guy for us to talk to. He asked what kind of bird it was and I said a wild dove. "A wild dove? What are you planning on doing? Catching one?" 
He started reading some stuff and then said that all it said was we had to notify their vet. The vet decides if it had to go through 30 day quarantine or not. That's it. No permit or anything. He said just to be sure to declare Popeye when we come out otherwise we could end up with a $800 fine.
So I've got to call some lady tomorrow who will give me the vet's number and I've got to talk to him and find out what I need to do. 
I'm so happy! And like Pidgey says, maybe I can charm the vet into not requiring quarantine. lol
Alice*


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## Birdmom4ever

That sounds encouraging, Alice. I sure hope you'll be able to bring Popeye home. The irony of all this is that of course wild birds _fly _over the border all the time.


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## AZfiddler_1996

I guess the only problem right now is quarantine...
I sure hope Popeye can come home!!


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## Pidgey

Well, I'm a happier camper, now. I can't possibly imagine how they could care less about bringing a bird that normally flies over the fence for dinner every day.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

But with quarantine don't you have to pay??


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

I sure hope this works out to legally get Popeye into the US. Good luck, and please keep us posted.

Terry


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## Pidgey

Quarantine is like prison--you get visits and meals. It's just so that any illnesses like Rabies and Mexican-Jumping-Beanitis can show up. If a vet on your side is tasked with quarantining it, YOU will probably be the one to go by often and feed, water and clean. The doctor will only be responsible for observation and that doesn't take much more than a cursory glance, really. I can't imagine what tests they'd actually perform on a wild bird that might have come from the US side anyway.

That's just my opinion and cannot be used in a court-of-law to keep YOU from rotting in prison. Do jailbirds spread avian flu?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Hey, _you're_ the one that was coming close to rotting in prison.  
Jailbirds... I wonder how much they cost to import?


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## AZfiddler_1996

The yellow stuff wasn't floating on top Popeye's right eye tonight. It looks exactely like the left eye. It has that thing in the middle of the pupil.


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## Pidgey

Well, for what it's worth, that's better. How about the surrounding eyelids? Are they getting paper-thin again, yet? I'm a'hopin' that we're getting back to normal now.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

The left eyelid was a little red and swollen last night. I don't exactely understand what you mean by paper-thin, I'll look at them today. 
They didn't tell me what time to call for the vet's # so I'm going to try to exercise a lot of patience and call at 9am. "Patience is a virtue" ...I wish we all had some.


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## Pidgey

Just look at the eyelids on one of your other birds. When they close their eyes, you can see that the normal eyelid is very thin--as thin as an eggshell. When they're edematous, they can get very thick. Remember when the doctor agreed that there was a "soft tissue infection"? That's what caused the edema (accumulation of watery flood in the cells, tissues or serous cavities). What we want to ultimately see is no edema there at all.

Even proceeding from the assumption that part, if not all, of the vision is lost, we still don't want infection to get into the brain and this is just too close for comfort.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, I know what you mean now. I'll be sure to check today. I never looked on purpose but I don't think it's thin.


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## AZfiddler_1996

It doesn't look good at all, the vet said that you can't cross them because of the Wild Bird Migratory Act or something like that. He said that about the only bird that doesn't fall under it is quail. He said that I could take Popeye to some office in Mexico and see what they say and then call him back. I don't understand. I'm confused and I want Popeye to come out!


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## Pidgey

Well, call him back and point out the very simple fact that since this bird is blind, it really doesn't fit into those considerations anymore. As far as the gene pool is concerned, it's dead.

Doesn't anyone in the bureaucracy utilize any common sense, anymore?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I do think there is a chance he might be wrong, he was working with cows at the moment so he didn't look anything up and he said that we haven't had a bird cross through our port in 15 years. 
I did tell him that Popeye was blind and couldn't be released and everything and I tried to explain myself and Popeye's case but...


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## Pidgey

Terry's going to have to help with this one. What the Bird Migratory Act (something like that) basically states is that it's illegal to even own the feathers of all birds protected under the act, never mind the birds themselves. In a senior moment, I'd forgotten about that--it's the bane of all unlicensed rehabbers who want to do more than pigeons, starlings and sparrows. You can't keep most wild, indigenous birds.

In theory, though, that should only apply to birds obtained _within_ our own borders. Seeing as how this is a MEXICAN dove, I would think that the technicality _may_ allow importation. It's aggravating because (I think) you wouldn't be violating the original intent of the law considering all the circumstances of this bird in particular (blindness) anyhow.

However, theoretically and legally, a wild bird of this class that cannot be successfully released is generally destroyed (might as well say it bluntly). Special dispensation is sometimes given to special cases and this usually wouldn't be one of them. You might hit the vet real hard with all the issues outlined above and see if he'll bite.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I don't know what to say. Terry?


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## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

Do we know exactly what species of dove Popeye is? Being certain of this information may (or may not) give us some "wiggle" room.

The Federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 is the primary US law that protects all native wild birds (English Sparrows, European Starlings, and Rock Pigeons are considered non-native and are not protected under this law). This is a good starting place for learning about the laws that protect wild birds: http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/intrnltr/treatlaw.html

A further potential hitch is that the US, Mexico, Canada, and Russia (and perhaps other countries more recently) have entered into international agreements for the protection of migratory birds. If Popeye is a protected species, then he is protected both under US law and Mexican law, and it will be extremely difficult to extricate him from Mexico in any legal manner. Further, if he is blind, he is non-releasable and under the "laws" would be required to be euthanised. Obviously none of us want to have this happen to Popeye, thus, we've got to figure out a clever and hopefully quite legal way to get him into the US where he can be more easily and thoroughly cared for.

Alice .. is the vet you have to talk to a US government vet or a Mexican government vet?

Let's try and get all our facts together here and figure something out.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'm almost positive that Popeye is a mourning dove but I'm going to go find some pictures to be sure. The vet is a US government vet.
P.S. Never mind, he's not a mourning dove...
The closest I could find was a collared dove but Popeye doesn't have the whole collar?
Well, now I'm not sure whether he's a morning dove or not, I've seen too many different pictures.


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## TAWhatley

Alice,

Popeye doesn't look like a Mourning Dove to me. It could just be the lighting in the pictures, but the base color is wrong for a Mourning Dove, and I see no dark brown spots on the wings which a Mourning Dove would have unless it was still very young.

Let me look through the Popeye pics again just in case. 

We should also be finding out what types of wild doves are found in the area where Popeye was originally found. There just aren't that many species of wild North American doves, and I'm hoping we get lucky and can make a strong case that Popeye isn't a protected species. If Popeye is a Eurasian Collared Dove, that would be wonderful as they are a non-native species in North America.

Be back later.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

That's why I didn't think he was a mourning dove because he doesn't have the brown spots on the wings. Could he be a young collared dove? They don't get their collars until they're older do they?
Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996

I forgot to post how Popeye was today. His eyes look better than they ever have and he was very wide-eyed. The eyelids are _not_ paper-thin. 
Today I saw Popeye drink on his own for the first time since the very first day I got him! Poor birdy, when I tap on his food bowl he won't walk to it, instead he starts pecking the air beneath him. 
While we were waiting to catch the bus the doctor came out and asked about Popeye. He says that he thinks that if we could keep the eyedrops in that we might be able to save a "percentage" of his eyesight!? And he doesn't want Popeye off of the oral antibiotic. He wants me to put him back on it all when school starts back (Tuesday) for about 2 weeks. He also told me something that I can do to thank him . (he said he wants a CD of me playing) 
Alice


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## TAWhatley

Alice,

This is wonderful .. El Doctor is involved and helping. Please do take his advice, and I'll be back with what I find on doves-pigeons as soon as I can .. probably tomorrow.

Terry


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## TAWhatley

_Thank you, John. Do you think we have a "mutt" here or what?

Terry_

Hard to tell, defininately not white wing (no wing bar), not a white fronted (white tipped) tail to long & bird not plump (has red legs &feet).

Note the black feet & longish tail. Looks to be too long bodied for a Dwarf Turtle (they have black legs & feet). Don't know of any mexican species having the black legs & feet.

It looks to have amythest on the neck chest area, possibly a hybrid.

John Pire
Texas City TX
Member of ADA & CDA
InternationalDoveSociety.com


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## AZfiddler_1996

So is it against the law to cross a hybrid??


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## Birdmom4ever

I don't think the law addresses it. You're just not allowed to have wild birds in your possession without a permit. Part of the reason for the law is that the populations of many species of parrots and some song birds have been decimated by the illegal pet trade. Hybrids don't usually occur in the wild, though I've read it happens occasionally between closely related species when populations are so small that the birds can't find mates within their own species and so choose mates of closely related species in the same family. 

I didn't think Popeye looked quite like a mourning dove from the pictures, either. It sounds as though there is hope he is a collared dove. That would indeed be wonderful news, as Terry said. It seems there is at least enough doubt about his identity to make the case that he is a domestic, not native dove. I've heard there is a growing population of escaped collared doves in Florida, but I don't know about Mexico. 

I love that the doctor asked for a CD of you playing. He sounds like a real treasure. God bless you both.


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## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> So is it against the law to cross a hybrid??


I don't think so. Here in California the wildlife officials don't care one way or the other about mixed breed birds .. 

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

I hope that I can bring Popeye across. What should I do next?


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## Pidgey

Tell the vet that the experts have looked at pictures of the dove and he's not a protected species. You can just about bet your bottom dollar that if Terry and her bunch can't do it, that vet can't either. That being the case, Popeye doesn't fall under the... "protection" of the Migratory Bird Act.

Frankly, I never did recognize the species, either. The beak doesn't look like a dove's beak to me--it doesn't seem dainty enough. It also seems too slender to be a pigeon's beak, as well. And his entire head never made me think 'dove' for that matter. I was really hoping that somebody local would be able to identify him, though, but I really wasn't thinking earlier about the legal issues. I got to concentrating on the health issues so strongly that the idiotic part of this side of rehabbing just didn't compute. It was an awfully long senior moment.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I'll call but who can I tell him the experts are? He's bound to ask.


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## Pidgey

You could tell the vet that he may be a juvenile and just isn't demonstrating what he is yet, then you have to keep him long enough to figure out what he is before he can legally be euthanized. As such, he NEEDS to go home with you for the interim.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

The one that Terry quoted above--John Pire of the international dove society.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> You could tell the vet that he may be a juvenile and just isn't demonstrating what he is yet, then you have to keep him long enough to figure out what he is before he can legally be euthanized. As such, he NEEDS to go home with you for the interim.
> 
> Pidgey


 Do you mean go home in AZ?? But what if when the time is up Popeye has to be euthanized?????? No, no!! I don't want Popeye to be "euthanized!!" NO!
I'm going to call the vet right now...
Alice


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## Pidgey

No, that's not it--the idea is to get the bird home and then they'll all forget that it exists. Vets usually aren't on a crusade to euthanize every eligible bird in the community that they know about. Of course, it's good to know if your vet is a Nazi or not, but most really aren't. If you bring in hurt wildlife to dump on them, then they often will but that's not what you're asking this guy to do--you just want him to give some kind of statement to the border people that it's okay if you bring the bird in.

From what I read earlier in this thread, they might very well let you bring him home "during his convalescence" if you simply declare it and they know where you live and all that and they know the vet's been notified. Everybody there knows doggone good and well that you kinda' live on both sides so "who cares?" Try that angle.

Pidgey


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## SweetSpirit

Pidgey said:


> Tell the vet that the experts have looked at pictures of the dove and he's not a protected species. You can just about bet your bottom dollar that if Terry and her bunch can't do it, that vet can't either. That being the case, Popeye doesn't fall under the... "protection" of the Migratory Bird Act.
> 
> Frankly, I never did recognize the species, either. The beak doesn't look like a dove's beak to me--it doesn't seem dainty enough. It also seems to slender to be a pigeon's beak, too. And his entire head never made me think 'dove' for that matter. I was really hoping that somebody local would be able to identify him, though, but I really wasn't thinking earlier about the legal issues. I got to concentrating on the health issues so strongly that the idiotic part of this side of rehabbing just didn't compute. It was an awfully long senior moment.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Alice, Pidgey, Terry and all,
Well, I'm not sure if I could be of any help, I just went over a few posts in this thread. Anyway, I agree with Pidgey. This bird could be declared a Collared dove if there are not restrictions about them. I think I read that you called the customs and they told you to call a vet over here. We are having a dog coming from Sweden this week, all the customs require is a health certificate so you would need to tell your vet over there that you called the customs and a vet in US  and that you need a health certificate for this bird. I would make sure the certificate states that the bird is clear of bird flu, salmonella, e.coli, worms... Be confident , declare the bird a Collared dove and all should be just fine. 

Back to the injury, I looked over the photos and I see that you decided to take the scab off. By taking the scab constantly you basically also allow the surrounding skin to fill in besides the regeneration that takes place under the scab so the opening will close a lot faster. This size injury should be closed in about two weeks if there's no infection involved. I would make sure the scab is softened very well every time you attempt to peel it off with a tweezers. If you feel any small resistance soften it some more with warm chamomile tea until it peels easily. You don't want to compromise any healing that occurred under the scab when you peel it off. You just want to clear the way for the surrounding skin to fill in. If there's some puss spots use a warm diluted iodine solution instead of the chamomile tea. What I don't like about the iodine is that it dries the actual wound and you want it soft so it could regenerate faster. Every time you finish peeling just apply the ointment. You should see big changes from one day to another.

My bird also had an eye affected. Luckily I didn't know much about eye complications and I didn't worry much about it. I just washed it every day with warm chamomille tea and I applied an eye ointment I had on hand. The eye had a big crust on it which one day just fell off. The vision was not affected. Maybe I should mention that I suffered from conjunctivitis when I was little and I had to daily wash my eyes with chamomile tea when the itching would get worse. 

On the other hand I currently have a Bleeding Heart hen who got attacked by her mate and has a similar injury size with this bird, maybe a little smaller. I noticed it when the scab was already formed. I applied an ointment maybe twice since, other than that I left her alone since she didn't appear to be in any kind of pain or discomfort. They were preening, mating, gathering sticks -currently nesting- so I decided to just let nature take it's course but I did constantly keep an eye on her. The scab is still there but right now it's almost at the same level with the existing skin so I can be certain that a lot of regeneration took place under the scab. I'm expecting it to just fall in a few days. I have a picture I took when I first noticed the injury and I could take another one today or tomorrow if somebody would be interested to see them. Anyway, best wishes for you and for your little rescue, hopefully it will all work out OK. Take care.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> No, that's not it--the idea is to get the bird home and then they'll all forget that it exists. Vets usually aren't on a crusade to euthanize every eligible bird in the community that they know about. Of course, it's good to know if your vet is a Nazi or not, but most really aren't. If you bring in hurt wildlife to dump on them, then they often will but that's not what you're asking this guy to do--you just want him to give some kind of statement to the border people that it's okay if you bring the bird in.
> 
> From what I read earlier in this thread, they might very well let you bring him home "during his convalescence" if you simply declare it and they know where you live and all that and they know the vet's been notified. Everybody there knows good and well that you kinda' live on both sides so "who cares?" Try that angle.
> 
> Pidgey


 Oh. I don't really see how they'd forget though, seeing we haven't had a bird cross through in 15 years but I still have a feeling they might work with us.

Weeeeeeell, I guess nothing will happen until we talk and I tried several times to call the vet but he didn't answer. Maybe he'll call me back. If he doesn't then I'll keep trying.


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## Pidgey

In one of these deals it's so easy to get into the "unending debate" that never ends up in resolution. When I went back to read that one post (#232 on Page 16: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=125322&postcount=232 ) I read where it sounds like the border guys said that there's really no problem and it seemed (by the language that you chose) that the vet may require 30 days quarantine.

Now, the real question becomes, "does this mean that the bird is to be brought to the border and received by the vet to be placed in a 30 day quarantine?" OR, does it mean that they're going to let you waltz across and take the bird to the vet under your own recognizance if a 30 day quarantine is required?

If the vet really doesn't care enough to research it, then simply tell the folks at the border that you checked with the vet and he didn't care about quarantine. That is the actual truth when it comes right down to it. And that is the practical side of it--who cares about you bringing a bird that could have chosen either side of the fence to live on as a matter of course? What possible disease could this bird have that isn't already indigenous to both sides?

It's just this simple--you're caring for the bird whether its physical location is on this side or that side. Wherever you put it--it's not going anywhere. It can always be found if any authority wants to come looking (none do, that's the real problem in trying to get an answer here). Just ask them on your way in next time and hopefully you'll talk to the same people that you've already talked to so they'll be familiar with the case. That might solve all your problems.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I still can't get the vet so I guess I'll bring the question up at the border again, maybe the vet is at the border for all I know. 
I have to wait for my brother to get home though since we have to take the bus again. I guess what I'll do is as soon as we walk in walk out and ask them about it. That way if some miracle happens and they say to bring Popeye out we don't have to wait until tomorrow.


----------



## Pidgey

You see, the law wasn't written around this kind of circumstance. For importation purposes, it was written to cover truly exotic species from further away with diseases that you wouldn't normally find here OR disease pathogen species that the indigenous animal species have not developed relative immunity to, never mind diseases with zoonotic potential.

Nobody wants to make a decision because of the uncertainty that comes from trying to apply an inapplicable law (importation, not the other thing). The guys at the border couldn't care less about the Migratory Bird Act and it's looking real strongly like it might not apply here anyway. Besides, you really did intend on releasing the fellow and there's still a chance (however small) that he might be able to see later. That said, THE ONLY WAY THAT'LL HAPPEN is if the bird gets constant medical care and you, young lady, live on the US side. You don't need to tell the border patrol that, however.

Try just going through and on the way into Mexico saying, "well, we're going to go get the little hurt dove and bring it back over so that we can finish doctoring it out" and then drive right back. What they're NOT going to do is shoot y'all in cold blood and then take the bird away in handcuffs and leg irons. When SweetSpirit said "be confident", that's exactly what she meant--just act like you own the country (the US) and do it. They'll probably just wave you on through like they had better sense.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'll do the best I can. That's all I _can _do anyway... 
Man, thank you guys so much, you've gone above and beyond!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Finally got the vet today. He said that Popeye doesn't fall under the migratory bird act but in that case he has to go to California for 30 day quarantine and it'll cost around a couple 100 dollars. 
The only other chance I've got- He said he's going to give me the phone # of his supervisor if I'll call back at noon and maybe (but probably not) he'll make an exception...


----------



## Pidgey

Doesn't make much sense, does it? In principle, it's really not "importation" when the bird's moving less than a linear mile. Did you point that out?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Yeah, I've tried but if they read the law they just can't reason. He said that he can't make any exceptions and that the law wasn't made to deal with these exceptions.


----------



## TAWhatley

Well, keep trying, Alice. Perhaps the supervisor will have both a heart and a brain.

Terry


----------



## pigeonpoo

Alice...try telling them that people, all over the world, have been following the progress of this little dove, willing it on, praying for it and are now watching to see if they can make a humane, compassionate decision. 

Sue


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'll try that, Sue. Five more minutes..... I'm _scared_. 
Alice
Terry, your new avatar is cute!


----------



## Pidgey

Well, no doubt their idea of a "humane" solution is a lethal injection. It "humanely" ends all the fuss and problems, no more need to worry, hope and pray. Personally, I'd settle for them just giving a nod to the border patrol, nothing written down, no records, just forgotten. I don't pay taxes in this country to want to see them blow it over that much ado about something that insignificant.

Scared of what?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, this is my last chance as far as I can tell, that's why I'm scared.  
They've never seen Popeye so don't know how bad he is. I'm hoping to get permission before they see him so they can't back out but on the other hand they might be more likely to say yes if they _do_ see him...


----------



## Pidgey

Take a picture and show them what you've been doing and how it's going. Tell them Unie's story and Izze's story and Rae Charles' story. This bird's effectively going to be in quarantine the rest of its life. You are the only person who's at risk because he won't be with other birds.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Just remember--they're not really afraid of it bringing over a disease, they're afraid of paperwork. Hopefully, you can make them more afraid of pleading, crying eyes. That's why I would say you need to do it in person.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I think it would be better iin person too. I'm going to ask my dad if he can take me to Wal-mart to get some pictures made and then to the border. BTW, the vet didn't answer. He's probably getting sick of me calling...


----------



## Pidgey

I don't think a judge can legally issue a restraining order against nagging.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Glad you like the new avatar, Alice. Brad was kind enough to have found it and sent it to me. All the pictures of Popeye should be at http://www.rims.net/AliceDove if they would be of any help to you. I can't imagine how frustrating and upsetting this has all been for you and really, really hope that some compassionate bureaucrat will come through and save the day.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I went and got the pictures done at Wal-mart but before we could go to the border the vet called. He gave me a # in Tempe which I called and the guy there said "absolutely not" but he wasn't all that terrible. He gave me 2 other #'s, one of the CDC and the other where I could find out AZ's requirements. I called the AZ # and they gave me a different # of the CDC so I called there and they gave me another # and I got an answering machine at the other # but that gave me _another_ # and that gave me 2 more #s and by the time it all stopped it was at another answering machine which gave me the option to leave a message or hang up. I _hate_ leaving messages but after thinking about 10 secs I didn't think I could find my way back there so I left one. I hope they listen to it since I didn't talk immediatly. 
AZ said that all they require is a health certificate or something from a vet/doctor? in Mex and that we meet the CDC's requirements. 
All that and I'm still where I was to begin with....................


----------



## Pidgey

Go with that--get the doctor to certify that the bird's wounded, but otherwise healthy. Take that to your local vet and run with it. Slip him a $20.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

But I have to meet the US's requirements too because that is the other 1/2 of AZ's requirements. And _that_ is where I'm stuck, I'm not positive what it is but I'm pretty sure it's going to be quarantine.


----------



## Pidgey

Actually, the $20 was for the US Vet to look the other way. I figured that somebody on the other side was going to be more friendly about it.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

That would work in Mexico but not on this side!


----------



## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

Do you think it would help if Pidgey or I (no, I haven't asked him .. but he is certainly up to speed on what is and isn't with Popeye) called these people also? I don't want to make matters worse or make things more difficult for you. I just want you to be able to bring Popeye home with you. Please let me know.

I am a little confused at how or why the CDC is involved in this at all. I would think it would be the US Fish & Wildlife Service, the Mexican equivalent of USF&WS, the AZ Department of Fish & Game (or whatever it is called in AZ), and/or perhaps the USDA. 

A reputable pigeon fancier told me that all that would be required to bring a banded pigeon across is a health certificate and perhaps a $25.00 or so fee.

Please let me know if there is something I or anyone else on Pigeon-Talk can do to help.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Terry! Here is the phone # of the CDC that the 1st guy gave me: (404) 498-1600 and the other # of the CDC that the other lady gave me: (404) 498- 1670
I told everyone that John Pire identified him as either a hybrid or young bird not fully showing his markings (most likely a collared dove) and the 1st guy told me that that means that the USF&WS isn't involved. One of the people I talked to said that the CDC is what is required because of the avian flu and all those other diseases that are floating around. The CDC and the health certificate is all that is required in AZ since the USF&WS is not involved.
If I left something out then please ask me.  Thank you!!!
Alice


----------



## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

I will start calling in the morning and see if I can find a way to get Popeye here. Thank you so much for all you have done. I'll let you all know tomorrow, but I suspect it will take most of the day to sort through all of this, and we still may not have an answer, but I'm happy to try.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

You and Pidgey are the ones to thank! School starts tomorrow so I'll finally be able to spend some time with Popeye again. You're so kind and thoughtful, Terry, I don't know how to thank you. You guys have done soooooo much already....


----------



## TAWhatley

Still trying to get some straight answers, Alice. I'll keep you posted.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye's beak never got better, it still has that hard bump thingy on it.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, the wound is smaller now. I'd only clean a small flake on the edge at a time now and let it heal for a day, then hit it again in a different spot. Remember, stay further back with the camera--four feet. 

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Can you describe exactly where that it and exactly what it looks like? Boy, am I ever tired tonight!

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Where what is? Wake up, Pidgey! 

P.S. May I delete the pics yet or should I wait?


----------



## Pidgey

The beak bump. Why do you want to delete the pics?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

The beak bump is on the bottom beak on the right side. Terry is going to put the pics on in a little bit and I'll delete them then...


----------



## Pidgey

Well, a beak is a composite of different tissues. There are keratinous portions (like fingernails), bone, soft tissues on the inside. What I'm wondering is which tissue type is affected and how.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, brother, I have no idea.


----------



## Pidgey

Guess you'll have to look tomorrow. Measure it, note which tissues it's affecting and feel it as well. I gotta' go to sleep. Been up since 2:00 AM your time.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I guess I'll have look up the different tissues then. You can kinda see it in the last picture I posted. It is the side shown and the bottom beak but you can't see any detail. 
Wow, I guess you'll rest well...


----------



## TAWhatley

*Pics Are Up ..*

at http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

The size comparison of the wound looks quite a bit smaller. That's doing pretty well. Those things don't fill in real fast but it looks like he's doing pretty good. It'll be another couple of weeks before the eyelids will be normalized again judging by Unie's experience. You will have to keep slowly picking at the sharpest points of the scab to help it fill in. That one arrow point of scab that's pointing at the back is the one I'd work on next. Just clean off a piece the size of a regular pencil eraser and see if the skin boundary pulls forward a little more within a couple of days.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I see the spot on the scab that you're talking about. Right now my biggest problem is finding someone to hold the bird while I do it...


----------



## Pidgey

Just tell 'em they CAN close their eyes.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

That was no problem.  The one that I thought would be the least likely to hold him held him. 
The bottom of the beak looks liks a water droplet hanging off. It is 3/4 of a cm long and at the lowest point a little bit less than 1/2 cm. 
I took some pictures of the inside of the beak. I'll send them to Terry. 
The scab came off in about .5 sec and it did what it did before, the whole thing broke loose except that it was connected in the front. I left it on and only took off about a pencil's eraser worth. It was white underneath, not flesh like the first time. There is only 2 more pencil-erasar-sizes left of the scab. And the "hole" over the left eye is still there covered over with the scab.

Problem: yellow puss came out from under the remaining scab
Another problem: The Ampicilin won't dissolve!!! He gave me a capsule and part of it dissolved but almost all the powder is still in the bottom!?!

Popeye attempted to walk toward his feed bowl yesterday! He recognizes the feel of the water bowl against him very quickly and he's learning how to find the food in the bowl while it's in front of him as well. Usually he'll take a step back from the food bowl and tries to eat there but now he's beginning to learn. 
Did I leave anything out?
-Licho
Pictures sent...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'm not the only one at school who's in love with Popeye...


----------



## Pidgey

Well, when a medication won't dissolve very well then you have to powderize it as best as you can. Since it's all in the water right now that means getting some kind of instrument to reach into the water and smash the individual pieces against the bottom until there's nothing left but powder that won't suspend. At that point, you can either attempt to make a suspension (adding sugar or syrup to make the water weigh more and, thus, "suspend" the particles) OR you can shake the living fool out of the water and suck a syringeful (a dose) up immediately upon shaking it.

That white stuff underneath is what the body produces when it's begun to reorganize the tissues and you're trying to heal it another way. It's almost leathery but it breaks up pretty easy when you're trying to pull it out. That's pretty typical. It's best to go ahead and clean it out every few days as it begins to prevent the scar tissue from retracting properly. So, you can just go ahead and remove the rest of the scab and clean it off now. It probably itches.

The pictures of the little girl holding Popeye are precious and I feel the sting of a grateful tear seeing them. Popeye's going to need someone like that for the rest of his life, wherever he ends up. It'll be real good if she can learn how to play with him and take him places so that he knows he's still part of the world. Gives him a reason to go on living.

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever

I also loved the pictures of Popeye and Karla. They brought a big lump to my throat. His head looks a lot better.


----------



## Pidgey

Honestly, I've never seen a lump quite like that. I guess it's stable, though, or I might have suggested canker. Is it hard? I think I'd go ahead and treat the bird for canker anyway but I'd try to use the pill form normally used for that like Spartrix. I don't have those or I'd send you some.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Really, Pidgey, I don't think Birdmom4ever would like to take the canker medicine...


----------



## TAWhatley

*Photos*

Hi Alice and all,

I do have all the photos gathered up but managed to get them out of order. I will get this fixed up tonight or tomorrow, but for now this is what you get: http://www.rims.net/AliceDove .. sorry for the foul up!

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Really, Pidgey, I don't think Birdmom4ever would like to take the canker medicine...


Well, if she's got canker in her mouth, there's really no choice.

As to canker medicine, it's possible that somebody there in your town actually carries it. You might try looking for FishZole, Metronidazole, Flagyl. They use them in fish tanks and sometimes feed stores carry them for other birds (chickens) as well.

Pidgey


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Well, the last time I checked there were no yellow deposits in my mouth, so I think I'm in the clear.  But I did actually taste the pigeons' medicated water one time because I wanted to see if the meds made the water taste bad. It was Global's Multi-mix for canker, cocci and worms. The water didn't taste too bad and I joked with my husband, "Now I won't get canker, coccidiosis or worms." Wouldn't want to give my pijjies something I wouldn't drink myself. 

Alice, you should be able to find Fishzole in a pet store, as Pidgey said. It's safe and effective.


----------



## Pidgey

Can you describe what that funny little section of orange-yellow color is towards the back of the wound? The color patch is smooth and doesn't match anything that I can think of. Is it bone or skin (doesn't look like it) or scar tissue (affected by the color of the lighting) or what?

Popeye really looks comfortable with all of you. Hunkering down like that is a pretty good sign. I don't know that I like the ruffled feathers, though. Do the feathers ever smooth down flat much like with your normal pigeons? You might spend some time describing his overall behavior.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

> Well, when a medication won't dissolve very well then you have to powderize it as best as you can. Since it's all in the water right now that means getting some kind of instrument to reach into the water and smash the individual pieces against the bottom until there's nothing left but powder that won't suspend. At that point, you can either attempt to make a suspension (adding sugar or syrup to make the water weigh more and, thus, "suspend" the particles) OR you can shake the living fool out of the water and suck a syringeful (a dose) up immediately upon shaking it.


 I had to be satisfied with shaking the fool out of it before but I'm going to see if I can smash it up today.



> That white stuff underneath is what the body produces when it's begun to reorganize the tissues and you're trying to heal it another way. It's almost leathery but it breaks up pretty easy when you're trying to pull it out. That's pretty typical. It's best to go ahead and clean it out every few days as it begins to prevent the scar tissue from retracting properly. So, you can just go ahead and remove the rest of the scab and clean it off now. It probably itches.


 Yesterday when I got to church more of Popeye's scab had come off leaving about a pencil eraser size over the "hole" that is over the left eye. 



> The pictures of the little girl holding Popeye are precious and I feel the sting of a grateful tear seeing them. Popeye's going to need someone like that for the rest of his life, wherever he ends up. It'll be real good if she can learn how to play with him and take him places so that he knows he's still part of the world. Gives him a reason to go on living.


 Aren't they precious?! .....Karla lives on that side of the border so if... Oh! but I want Popeye to come home so bad! I love him so much! ...I guess I feel selfish....... 



> Honestly, I've never seen a lump quite like that. I guess it's stable, though, or I might have suggested canker. Is it hard? I think I'd go ahead and treat the bird for canker anyway but I'd try to use the pill form normally used for that like Spartrix. I don't have those or I'd send you some.


 I'm not sure what you're thinking of when you say hard. It is hard on the outside but on the inside just feels like the rest of the "soft tissue." It seems more like it's swollen or like a scratched mosquito bite feels/looks on our skin but it is not shaped like a mosquito bite by any means. The pink looking dot it in the center of the bump on the inside and on the outside it lines up with the deepest part of the "water drop."



> Can you describe what that funny little section of orange-yellow color is towards the back of the wound? The color patch is smooth and doesn't match anything that I can think of. Is it bone or skin (doesn't look like it) or scar tissue (affected by the color of the lighting) or what?
> 
> Popeye really looks comfortable with all of you. Hunkering down like that is a pretty good sign. I don't know that I like the ruffled feathers, though. Do the feathers ever smooth down flat much like with your normal pigeons? You might spend some time describing his overall behavior.
> 
> Pidgey


 The funny looking section is scar tissue affected by the color of the lighting. 
Very rarely will his feathers smooth down, usually only when he decides to move around. He walks more everyday and yesterday he walked around quite a bit. Well, not a lot, he only covered about a sq ft trying to find his feed bowl.
He doesn't move around much but we take him everywhere. Yesterday we took him across the street to the store.  I don't know what he thinks about it all but at least he's not sitting in his cage all alone. Really, there's not much behavior to describe, he doesn't do a whole lot... ?? 
Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Took the rest of the scab off today. And the hole is there. It is a sliver and the new scab looked exactely like the old scab when I took it off. I didn't have the camera today! The hole is on the back side of the left eye but not behind the eye, it is right on top of it. Popeye's scab is all off now. 
My mom wants to know about fibrase.
I don't think that I can get the canker med at a feed store but I still might be able to get some from a man that has racing homers here. I'm supposed to call him up anyway to see about getting some young birds so maybe he'll have some canker medicine. I'll let you know what happens. Also my mom just said that maybe I can get some from a vet in Mex.
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Or the pharmacy--Flagyl (Metronidazole) is actually a human medicine. We often get it in the 250 milligram tablets and then apportion it out in different ways. Is there any way that you can get a weight on this bird? Looking at his head, I've always thought he looked more like a pigeon than a dove per se.

Just out of curiosity, this hole that you're talking about--does it drill straight down into the orb of the eye? Do you have any idea how deep it goes?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'd say it was about 1 cm deep. It was almost 1 cm long. The scab is slanted just like the other one was so I really don't know if it went into the orb of the eye...


----------



## Pidgey

Forgot about your mother's request: Fibrase is a trademark name for Pentosan Polysulphate (alt.: polysulfate) that is used for the treatment of Interstitial Cystitis of the bladder. Why?

So this sliver of the scab is some kind of congealed goop that's forming in that hole... betcha' there's still a nidus of infection down in there. That's really what the Ampicillin's for although sure woulda' been nice...

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

It's not goop, it's just a perfectly formed scab that came out of it. The hole is clean.


----------



## Pidgey

"Congealed goop." I know, not the most technical terminology. Anyhow, can you see down inside this hole? The big question is where does it go--down in the skull, down under the skin beside the periorbital tissue, down into the eyeball or where?

Well, don't pull the scab off again for another three days or so.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

from mom

This fibrase is an ointment used for debriding wounds.

It contains fibrinolisina, desoxirribonucleasa and cloramfenicol.

I was just wondering if it could be used instead of pulling the scabs off of Popeye.


----------



## Pidgey

Going to have to look into that. Chloramphenicol is some very strange stuff that's been known to cause death when gotten on the skin (humans). That's very rare but it's something to think about.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

This link discusses the drug very positively. Of course, it's being used here for it's topical antibiotic properties in its capacity to penetrate necrotic material and kill pathogens. It gives a warning at the bottom about the condition that can occur to humans if it's gotten in the mouth but I have read before about the very rare cases that it's done that in simple contact with the skin:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_chloramphenicol.html

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

I'd say if you want to use it--do it with gloves on and be extremely careful. Don't let the children touch the bird where the product has been applied for a few days.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Well, frankly, after thinking about it, I just wouldn't do it at all. That scab's getting far more manageable in size and it's just not worth the risks. If I were doing it at home, I might give it a try just to see how a chemical debrider works (feralpigeon's the one on here who's used similar products) but given the fact that the children handle the bird, there's just no justifying any risk, no matter how small.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> "Congealed goop." I know, not the most technical terminology. Anyhow, can you see down inside this hole? The big question is where does it go--down in the skull, down under the skin beside the periorbital tissue, down into the eyeball or where?
> 
> Well, don't pull the scab off again for another three days or so.
> 
> Pidgey


 Good morning, Pidgey! 
Yes, I can see down into the hole to a point. (until it is too dark to see if you know what I mean. I didn't look with the sun.) I don't know where it goes to. 
Popeye's scab is all gone so I can't pull anymore off anyway. The scar tissue is there in place of the scab except that there isn't any in the hole, it is red flesh. 
I called the guy that has racing homers here. He doesn't race because he doesn't like people handling his birds or the birds getting sick. Anyway, he said that I can get emtryl in Mexico for canker and that it is actually for pigs. 
Alice
P.S. My mom said to tell you thank you for the information.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, that ought to close up relatively quickly then. It may have been something sharp from the original collision that literally jammed in there at the same time the scalp was shorn off or cut. It may even form a scar layer in the form of a belly-but-ton-like like depression. Pierpont did where that one cavity formed in her chest that I had to keep cleaning out for weeks.

Emtryl won't be as easy to treat with because we have to be fairly careful how much we give the bird. It's in the Nitroimidazole family just like Metronidazole but it's nowhere near as forgiving on overdosing. Now, you really need to get an accurate weight on Popeye. The easiest way is to get a kitchen scale (you may have one) as they often go to one pound and also have the weight shown in grams.

You're welcome.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, I didn't see any use in getting Emtryl anyway since I can get the Flagyl just as easy. 
Is there any medicine that I should be putting on top of Popeye's head? Or cleaning it? What should I do for it right now? 
I couldn't go to Mexico today. That means that Popeye didn't get his medicine.  
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

You mean the Ampicillin? Is there any way that you can teach Karla to do it? Antibiotics aren't necessarily a good idea willy-nilly. They can ultimately do more harm than good with infrequent dosing by creating superbugs.

You could put some NeoSporin or something similar in that hole. That's about all the area left that hasn't scarred over, right?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'm afraid Karla wouldn't be able to go over there twice a day. 
Yes about the hole ?.


----------



## Pidgey

I'd do that with a Q-Tip and not leave a lot of residue, by the way. You might also consider just cleaning with the dilute Betadine solution every day or so. You're getting down to the point where it's not the burden to the immune system that it was.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

P.S. Saturdays are the only days that we don't go over normally and today was weird because of a funeral. In other words I will be able to give him his medicine everyday.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

What is not a burden to the immune system? Do you mean to clean the hole or the whole wound?


----------



## Pidgey

"Burdening the immune system" means a pathogenic overload. That's what was going on when the infection was at its worst. You can have edema (swelling) for a variety of reasons including allergies, but on Popeye, it was originally due to an infection that complicated the original wound.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

oh. I see...


----------



## Pidgey

Well, for the most part, anyway. Some of the swelling was no doubt due to the shock to the tissues from the wound. Just imagine it this way--the body is like a city and each house is a specific cell. There are utilities, streets, trash pickup, sewage, mail delivery, food distribution... it's all organized: the inflow of support and the outflow of waste. When there is an influx of terrorists or calamity, basic services and their organization gets all out of whack.

Pidgey


----------



## Birdmom4ever

That's a great analogy, Pidgey.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I wish I knew as much as you do, Pidgey! 
I've got another problem. School is going to be cancelled for tomorrow because if we go over we probably won't get out because they're going to block the border on that side. I'm going to see if Karla can give the medicine and if she can then I'm going to see if she can go over there 2 times tomorrow. If she can't should I just quit it completely?? Thank you.  
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Probably. Do you see any evidence of infection these days? If the bulk of the swelling's gone down then there's probably not much left. Are they closing school due to this big May 1st demonstration? 

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Karla can't go.  I snatched 2 pictures real quick like before we left so who knows how they turned out. I'll post them in a little bit and send them and the last one to Terry. 
The hole filled in with yellow goop so you can't see it anymore. 
Popeye's poops are perfectly formed and the color is great but they are _hard. _ Why is that? As soon as she poops the poops feel like they're 15-20 minutes old. Dried out, I guess? All I could think of was that he wasn't drinking enough water but he drinks a lot that I see. I can't figure it out but they definately aren't normal. 
On the bright side Popeye's getting a bunch of feathers! Hopefully it'll kind of show in the pictures. The grey part of the wound is getting feathers (the whole circle) but the white part isn't. 
We were going to have school tomorrow but the Customs guy told us today that the Mexicans are planning on blocking the street to go out and not letting anyone go into the US. It's cancelled so we don't get stuck over there. We get "border days" instead of "snow days" down here.  
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

The feather regrowth is a pretty sure sign that you finally won the war on the infection. If there is a massive underlying infection or inflammatory response, feathers tend to fall out or not regrow until it's resolved. The hole that's currently filled in with scab is just a very thin sliver going in. There's probably no need to "fiddle" (hehehe!) with it any further. In time, you may not even see the bald spot per se although there might be an obvious discontinuity in the feathers up there like a little chop in the natural lay.

Some birds are very conservative when it comes to water and some are very sloppy. When he gets even more comfortable and confident with the layout of the place, he may start drinking more out of boredom. You need to get him his own little bowl of grit as well and teach him how to use it, too.

Now, it's pretty much down to long term housing and life choices. 

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I really want to bring Popeye home!! I hope that Terry can find something out. 
Anyhow, Popeye can stay at school until the 2nd week of June.
*Thank you, Pidgey!!!!!!!!!!*
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I really want to bring Popeye home!!
> Alice


I know. 

But I want you to take a good, long look at what the biggest likelihood is for your future and how that would affect Popeye. For instance, if you're going to go off to college and couldn't take him along, then you'd have to find him a good home. In Unie's story, I tried to convey the difficulties that a blind bird must go through in order to have a sense of belonging and purpose. 

Unie, of course, does not discern that there's a world out there (however small) that sees her as significant, loved, and even cherished. She would not personally have chosen to be a hero in this way--she just knows her own life and that she likes going out for the simple chores, to hear the gossip in the loft and to do a little flying for sport. Her challenges of finding food and water are, overall, probably less than they are for the feral pigeons. 

But make no mistake, she _knows_ that she _belongs_ and has an important part to play in the lives of those with whom she lives. She _is_ a working member of our little community. She counts and she's fully aware of that fact without perceiving the true nature of the significance which we regard her life as having.

Popeye doesn't need to learn to fly blind. Actually, I've come to understand that deep-pile grass is kinda' necessary if you're going to fly a blind bird and that's just a practical aspect of Unie's life. If you don't have that, it's probably not the world's best idea. But, a life with love and inclusion is very important and the continuity of that is, I feel, also important. As such, Popeye needs a home where there will be as many years of active involvement in the daily course of life as possible. I don't think you should plan your life around Popeye's but it would be good to find a home where Popeye can fit in for several years as a beloved pet or be a part of his own actual family. Only you will know your own situation enough to make that decision--I'm just asking you to take a good look at how your life might play out and how it would affect Popeye.

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley

Hi Alice,

I'm still making phone calls to the powers that be but haven't yet found just the right person. I'll keep you posted. I'm pretty sure we will find a way to get Popeye into the US well before school closes.

You've done an awesome job of caring for him and getting so much better!

Terry


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Alice, you have indeed done a fabulous job with Popeye. The pictures showing feather regrowth are very encouraging. Still hoping and praying there will be a way for you to bring Popeye across the border.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you all so much, you're a great help and encouragement. I will do what ever is best for Popeye...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Here are some pics from today. See all his wirely little hairs?!  
... POPEYE FLEW TODAY!!! but smack dab into a wall.


----------



## Pidgey

It is a stage that blind birds often go through. When they start feeling good enough, they want to fly. Given the terrain there (little to no grass; cacti ;hard walls and floors), it's a bad place to learn to fly blind, in my opinion. If I were going to supervise flying exercises (not exactly flying but still levitating), I'd do it over a bed (watch out for the poop). If you have access to an awful lot of foam sheeting, you could dress a room out and work in it. You start very low and do an awful lot of repetitions before proceeding to a higher level.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

We've got beds over there that the 6 guys were using but I don't know if I'd be allowed to arrange them. It's worth a try!


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, there's no point even starting that business unless you're going to carry through for a long time to come and if it's a lot of trouble each session, you won't be able to sustain it. There are quite a few pitfalls.

Those eyelids are going to be puckered for quite awhile yet, I expect. They now have an excess of material that'll have to slowly absorb and I don't know what the effect of the Gentamicin drops on the eyelids is. You can see the little swelling on the side of the beak in that one picture.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, if I don't think it's a good idea then I won't do it. If Popeye wants to fly, though, I'm going to do all I can to help him.  
Here's a picture of Popeye listening to opera...


----------



## Pidgey

A columbiforme after my own heart!

Pid-Gianni Schicchi


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

.....  .....
I learned _O mio babbino caro _ but that's not what Popeye was listening to right then, he was listening to me sing _Una voce poco fa_. 
Alice


----------



## Whitefeather

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Here's a picture of Popeye listening to opera...


Wonderful photo Alice.  

It looks as though Popeye is coming along well. 
You have done such a wonderful job of caring for him.

Cindy


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Cindy.  Popeye is sweet. He really enjoys attention (I don't blame him, poor thing) and he loves to go the store. Going to the store is fun! He sits on my hand listening to the Mariachi music and all the people, you can just know he's trying to figure out what everything is.


----------



## Pidgey

I think my heart stopped. I can't help but wonder what speed Popeye was flying when you took the pictures. Somewhere along the way, he will wonder what it's like to accelerate to full bore and, if you're in a room with walls, that's when it can get dangerous.

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

I don't how you got those pictures, Alice, but they are SPECTACULAR!

BEAUTIFULLY DONE! 

Are you SURE Popeye can't see???


----------



## Pidgey

No need to apologize. And I know quite well how it goes--just like you describe for awhile and then, with learning teamwork with you and a little familiarity with the experience, he'll start getting more confidence and doing better. One day, he'll feel pretty good about things and go for the power stroke. That's okay--but you have to plan for it. Remember, Unie wrote the book!

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I know. Unie is my hero. To tell you the truth, I have more fear than Popeye... I'll always be very careful.
Did you see the picture of the right eye? I'd post the left one and the picture of his scar (did I tell you it is Y shaped?) but for some reason it won't let me delete the other pictures.


----------



## Pidgey

You must always have more fear than Popeye. It is so good to see him feeling well enough to do that though and they are wonderful pictures, all the more for knowing his story so well.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

By the way, he looks more like a brown pigeon than a dove. I would never think of him as a dove. Seems like Terry could send some of those pictures to her friend in the international dove society and maybe he could identify him now.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

mr squeaks said:


> I don't know how you got those pictures, Alice, but they are SPECTACULAR!
> 
> BEAUTIFULLY DONE!
> 
> Are you SURE Popeye can't see???


 Thank you, Miss Squeaks. 
...I wish I wasn't sure.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey, what would I give Popeye of 500mg Flagyl? 
Terry, I sent you the pictures that I deleted. I hope I didn't forget any! 
Alice


----------



## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Pidgey, what would I give Popeye of 500mg Flagyl?
> Terry, I sent you the pictures that I deleted. I hope I didn't forget any!
> Alice


Hi Alice,

Thanks for continuing to send the pics of Popeye. I am working on getting them back in order and generally doing a better job of presenting Popeye to the world .. I'm just whammied and buried in baby birds starting about two weeks ago, so I am running seriously behind BUT I'll get caught up!

This is from: http://www.k-state.edu/research/comply/iacuc/research/formulary.html#Metronidazole

_*Metronidazole (Flagyl): can, fel, NHP, av, fish-50-60 mg/kg PO SID or divided BID x 5d. Fish-250 mg/10 gal water, 10 mg/g food, rep-125-275 mg/kg PO SID-BID. Human dose-15 mg/kg QID (30 mg/kg BID) IV for sepsis. 
Anti-protozoan drug used for Giardia, Trichomonas, amebiasis, and anaerobic bacterial infections. _

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

Well, Alice, you might find that clear as mud! But, to interpret, the "can, fel, NHP, av, fish" part refers to Canine, Feline, Non-Human Primate (a Human Primate would be a "Jock", found in universities guzzling excessive quantities of beer and hassling nerds), Avian, and, of course, Fish. "P.O." isn't the current meaning, it's the old Latin "Per Os" and means "by mouth" or "Give Orally". "SID" is also the old Latin and essentially means "once a day". The next portion "or divided BID" means that you can cut the dosage in half and give it twice a day (same daily quantity). "x 5d" means "for five days."

So you come to the problem of dividing the 500 mg pill up and giving the required amount to the bird over the protocol period. Going back, it was 50 to 60 milligrams per kilogram for the actual dosage. You've never posted a weight on the bird and so we can only demonstrate the way to do it: if the bird weighs 200 grams then it's 200/1000 = 0.2 Multiply that by that dosage and you've got 10 to 12 milligrams in a one-shot-per-day dose. Going to be really tough to divide that pill up like that without a scale so it's going to be similar to what you did with the Ampicillin: Grind the pill up as finely as you can and dissolve it as well as possible in 41 milliliters of water. Shake the fool out of it each time and give one milliliter per dose per day for the highest dose rate and about 83% of that for the low dose. In your case, once a day is probably the better protocol.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Good mornin' Pidgey!  
I have nothing to weigh Popeye with.  
Thanks for doing the translation work. I'll be able to get the Flagyl today and start him on it.... what should I do with the other 29 pills?  
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Keep 'em--you've got a bunch of other birds and it's hard to imagine some of them not coming down with the real Trichomoniasis (canker) sometime. It's always better to be prepared and a "war chest" is a good thing to have unless you have a local supplier with fresh product on the shelf at all times.

As to Popeye's weight, how does he weigh compared to your other birds? Have you ever felt the weight of a real dove? They're a lot smaller than a normal pigeon. There's just no way we can tell from looking at the pictures without something right beside him to help with scale. If he were standing by another pigeon (homing or feral), for instance, that'd help some help.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Yep, I've got Dumpty and he is a ringneck. Popeye, I think, weighs more than Dumpty. Popeye doesn't weigh as much as Diamond (my feral hen) and definitely not as much as my Homers.
I'll ask my dad if he'll let me take one of my RHs over but I don't think he'll let me. We'll see, but it won't be today, anyhow. 
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Someone else who's more familiar with Ringnecks could step in here with a weight on them--I'm not familiar with 'em. Your feral hen could vary a lot on weight but my guess would be in the range of about 300 grams. The 200 grams is probably not far off.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

Pidgey said:


> Someone else who's more familiar with Ringnecks could step in here with a weight on them--I'm not familiar with 'em. Your feral hen could vary a lot on weight but my guess would be in the range of about 300 grams. The 200 grams is probably not far off.
> 
> Pidgey


My adult ringnecks weight between 150-180gr. ECD's weight a little more, about 200gr.

Reti


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I checked Popeye's eyes last night like you said and they didn't respond to light. 
He is on the Flagyl now. 
I think that is all that is new. 
Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

The scar pics only show a V but I said Y because there is a line that goes down into the tuft of feathers in the front.


----------



## Pidgey

The light inside is reddish enough that it's tough to make out detail due to the lack of contrast. But, it looks like the area of feather regrowth will be pretty extensive. You know, Pierpont did an odd thing--a scar membrane covered her keel with two flaps of real skin hanging loose on either side. The scar membrane began to diminish, pulling the two flaps inward to where they rightfully belonged. In time, the scar section disappeared altogether and the original skin completely covered the keel. 

Conversely, Pattie Cakers (Lin named her) had a wound over her head that scarred over but it never absorbed the scar. She's had the chop in the scalp feathers for years now.

Different question: Do Popeye's actual eyes seem to be sunk in from the norm?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

No, his eyes don't seem sunken in. 
His head is very lumpy. 
The pictures of his left eye were not very good so I'll try to get some more today. Actually, the right eye pictures really surprised me when I took them because his eye was um... not clear... as in I couldn't see his iris, all I could see was the pupil. I think. Anyway, the picture didn't show what I saw.
His eyes itch real bad. 
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

When you say his eyes itch real bad, you mean that he scratches them a lot? That could have something to do with that medication, I suppose. You're still using the Gentamicin drops, right?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Yes, I'm still using the drops. He scratches them with his feet and sometimes he'll rub them against his back.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, the itching will probably stop with the drops and the eyelids are still stretch. That may itch as well. This, too, shall pass.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

*POPEYE SAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## mr squeaks

*awright!!! What? How???*


----------



## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> *POPEYE SAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


That's incredible, Alice! How wonderful! Are you certain? I got all but three of the pics up again at http://www.rims.net/AliceDove.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

He was sitting on my hand which was about 6" away from a desk ledge thing and he looked at it then he hopped to it!! And then a few minutes later he looked at a chair below him that was to his left and then he flew to it! He barely missed the chair. I couldn't help it, I had to cry. 
I got some pics so you can know what I'm talking about...
Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Where he is sitting is the ledge he hopped onto and the chair on the left is where he tried to land afterward.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, that's great news (Alice called me about it long before she posted it) and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot more of the vision comes back if this is truly the case. I rather doubt that it'll all come back, but probably enough to be serviceable, if not releasable. That also adds a complication to keeping the bird indoors--if he gets outside, it might be very bad.

Pidgey


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Alice, that's wonderful news! I like the picture of him sitting on the chair. I don't know what kind of dove he is, but he certainly isn't a mourning dove, you can see by that square tail. I know this has already been established, but I wanted to add he definitely looks like a domestic dove to me.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Here's some picture that I took of Popeye today. Nothing's new... except I think we need to take up a donation for a comb.


----------



## Reti

What a lovely little dove.
I love all your pics of Popeye.

Reti


----------



## Victor

AZ fiddler1996 (Alice), You and Pidgey... you two should be commended for the wonderful job you did together to help this poor little creature. You went above and beyond to help this beautiful bird.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thanks you, guys. Popeye was worth every bit and more! 
Alice


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Love the pictures, Alice. It's amazing how far you have come with Popeye. Bless you.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Birdmom. 

There is a video of Popeye in the General Discussions forum. 
Licha


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Hi Alice,
This is my first post to this thread and I haven't read them all, so please forgive me if I am redundant...first, God Bless you and my prayers are with you and your resiliant dove. You are both a wonderful inspiration. Kudos to all of the giving and knowledgeable helpers here, too. Next, beautiful photos (the one of your friend and Popeye brought tears to my eyes..what pleasure our doves do bring us...)



Birdmom4ever said:


> I don't know what kind of dove he is, but he certainly isn't a mourning dove, you can see by that square tail. I know this has already been established, but I wanted to add he definitely looks like a domestic dove to me.


I think I can safely agree that s/he's not a mourning dove or any other Zenaida species either, the only Zenaida that doesn't have a distinctly tapered tail has white wing coverts even as a juvenile. 

Has anyone suggested an ECD or ECD hybrid?

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/RNECDCompare.htm

Your photos show that Popeye has tail spikes. So my next question would be are there any other type(s) of dove that have those tail spikes besides ECDs?


Carol


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Since I noticed that the bottom of the page (link above) says, "The tail spikes are unique only to S. decaocto", I have written to John Pire to see what he thinks...
Carol


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

*Popeye's ID*

John Pire (International Dove Society) writes back...
"... Carol, very good observation. The tail spikes are unique - only to S decaocto, I totally missed that facet. Thanks for pointing it out.. 
Plus the species is occuring in Mexico."

So this means that Popeye definitely has ECD (Streptopelia decaocto) lineage.
Either pure ECD or hybrid.

Carol


----------



## Pidgey

I think we're ultimately hoping for a hybrid because if Popeye's a recognized pure wild species then it will probably be impossible for him to ever be imported (all of a mile) into the US due to the Bird Migratory Act (something like that, anyway). Thanks for your help and hopefully you can eventually nail Popeye down to a real hybrid.

Pidgey


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Hi Pidgey ~
I'm unfamiliar with all of the whys or wherefores of the Bird Migratory Act, but I don't think that a full blooded ECD (Eurasian Collared Dove) is protected under it in the US because it is not native to North America. 
Hopefully there are no current regulations to prevent the import of Popeye as either an ECD or as an ECD hybrid. 
Best wishes,
Carol


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

If Popeye is legal then I need to get a health certificate from a doctor or vet. I think that the doctor across the street in Mexico would do it. If that works out then I've got to figure something out about quarantine...


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Hi folks,

When asked if the tail spikes would definitively indicate that Alice's dove could only be an ECD or an ECD hybrid, John Pire (IDS) replied, "yes, most likely pure ECD. Hybrids with ringnecks do not have tail spikes or only a hint of a spike until at least third back cross to ECD." 

So would appear most likely that Popeye is pure ECD and just too young to have the typical ECD neckring yet.




AZfiddler_1996 said:


> ... If that works out then I've got to figure something out about quarantine...


If Popeye does get an "all clear" for entry I for one would be very blessed to donate some $ toward his quarantine  

Carol


----------



## Reti

If Popeye does get an "all clear" for entry I for one would be very blessed to donate some $ toward his quarantine  

Carol[/QUOTE]

That is so nice of you, Carol.
Hope all works out for Popeye.

Reti


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Carol, that was very kind of you to offer that. Thank you for all the work you did to find out exactely what type of bird Popeye is. 

Popeye's left eye doesn't have the yellow "cloud" over it anymore. It does have a white one, though. His eyelid seems to sag down below the eye? 
The bump on his beak has gone down a whole bunch, almost completely. If I didn't know that it was there, I don't think that I would notice it. How long is he supposed to be on the Flagyl?
Here are some pictures from yesterday. 
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

In his case, I'd probably continue the Flagyl for 7 to 10 days. How long has he been on it, now?

As to the eyelids, it looks like there's some flaccidity in the muscles controlling them for one thing (and that's understandable after all the edema earlier) and also the wound on top probably allowed the skin and flesh over the top to relax, letting that section droop. You might try taking your fingers and pinching some over the top (the middle of the original wound might be stuck, though) and see if it has the tendency to pull some of it up. I don't know if that will ever tighten up on its own but it could take quite awhile (possibly months).

Otherwise, he's looking a lot better. How about a photo of the top when you get around to it. Have there been any more signs of even limited sight or was that one time the only shot?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

He's been on the Flagyl 17 days now.


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, well, then you can stop that by now. No point in overdoing it.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

oops I mean 12 days. Today is the 17th.


----------



## Pidgey

Still fine, cease and desist!

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

OK. I'll try to get a picture of his wound today. The scar hasn't gotten any smaller.


----------



## Pidgey

And it may very well never get any smaller without outright surgical removal (which would actually be pretty easy but let's just not, right now). Let's give it another month and see how the eyelids progress.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, brother, I've had enough and unless it's necessary I don't want to do surgury right now.


----------



## Pidgey

Can't say as I blame you. I'm expecting that little Popeye could be a bit tired of that stuff, too. When we do the inquiry with the quarantine center, though, we need to make sure that they won't take one look at the bird, assume he's got some exotic disease and just out-and-out euthanize him, though. That's just about the one-and-only reason that I'd bother other than if he were fully-sighted, it would interfere with his peripheral vision and thus his ability to detect incoming predators.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

The pictures don't show a thing.  The featherless part of his head is a rectangle. 1 cm from beak to tail and 1 1/2 cm from eye to eye. 
I pinched it like you said and it did pull it up. 
No other sign of sight. I know what that probably means.  I mean, there were other signs but they could've been either way... 
Pidgey, I'm ready to do surgury whenever it needs to be done...


----------



## Pidgey

Well, it doesn't have to be a surgery quite like you're thinking. It might simply be possible to pull a wrinkle and put sutures through to hold the wrinkle in place. Time should shrink the wrinkle. That way, there's no real cutting or blood. The sutures may be a little special, though--more like ligating. To ease your personal suffering some, there won't be any nerves in the scar tissue. That is to say that he probably won't feel much if anything. There's plenty of time so we'll review some stuff on suturing.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'm listening...


----------



## Pidgey

Okay, here's the deal. The suturing technique that you're going to want to use will be the Interrupted Horizontal Mattress. Go to this page and scroll down until you see it illustrated:

http://www.ukvet.co.uk/ukvet/articles/surgery_suture patterns.pdf

...the big difference being that you don't have a cut to deal with--you're going to pull a wrinkle and put in two or three of those stitches to hold the wrinkle. In time, you will trim the wrinkle off and let that heal. Within a week, it should be ready for that. It will bleed relatively little and won't hurt. Pierpont's original wound had healed with little nodules of skin sticking out and the vet just trimmed those off without any seeming regard. Pierpont didn't even notice.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, my mom has to reinstall some stuff before I can read it...  
Thanks, Pidgey...


----------



## Pidgey

Beforehand, you're going to want to spend some time figuring out exactly how much to pinch to pull the right amount of eyelid back up to it's correct placement. You might want to make two lines on the skin/scar tissue with a pen (that you can see--it's pretty dark skin) for a reference of where to put the sutures when you're ready for that stage because you might get a little lost when you let go of the pinch to do the work.

I can send you some real sutures for this if you want to go that route otherwise it's the cotton thread and the sharpest sewing needle you can find.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I think I need to see the link so I can have a better idea of what I'm looking at, maybe she can install it later today.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, then I'll paste the illustration here, then:

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you... it makes sense.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

*Popeye, Tender, Julio, and Karla*

This is Popeye and his new feathered friend, Tender. The pictures were taken yesterday.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Alice, the pictures are wonderful. I particularly loved "Tender resting". What a look of total contentment and trust. Is Tender yours also?


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Tender was mine but I just gave him to Karla yesterday.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, my favorite is Tender riding Popeye and I think the caption: "Giddyup!" needs to be added.

"Hi, Ho, Popeye... AWAY!!!"

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Here's a pic of him dismounting his horsie.


----------



## Pidgey

Popeye gets an awful lot of petting, doesn't he? 

You know, there are stories of birds who have become the best of friends. Rae Charles really loved Pij and a member here from a long time ago had an African Greycheek and another bird that were almost inseparable. When the one started getting sick (it was almost 20 years old), the other one helped him as much as possible. When he died, the other one was virtually inconsolable. Those are bittersweet stories but they illustrate how the birds are a lot more like us than most would ever believe.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye sure does.  He has a hard time keeping up with his preening. 
I'm afraid Popeye and Tender aren't the best of friends. lol They each annoy the other because they don't understand each other (one being blind and the other a baby). They do appear, though, that they would come to understand each other very quickly and become best of friends, but Tender is now at Karla's house.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

lol I think I got a little carried away with the pictures.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

...but I'll take one off and add one more of Karla and Tender.


----------



## TAWhatley

Marvelous pictures, Alice! What a great job you and your friends have done with little Tender (and, of course, Popeye too)!

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Terry, we couldn't have done it without you!


----------



## Lovebirds

You are a ROLE MODEL for every young person on this forum (and the old fogies like me too I guess). Wonderful pictures. Very heartwarming and touching to see a young person like yourself take the TIME and EFFORT to do what needs to be done to insure the survival of these gorgeous little feathered, needy, birds. Thank you...........


----------



## mr squeaks

Lovebirds said:


> You are a ROLE MODEL for every young person on this forum (and the old fogies like me too I guess). Wonderful pictures. Very heartwarming and touching to see a young person like yourself take the TIME and EFFORT to do what needs to be done to insure the survival of these gorgeous little feathered, needy, birds. Thank you...........


I AGREE 100%!! WELL DONE! GREAT PICTURES!

A pleasure to follow your adventures on this forum! 

All the best!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I just went over to Mexico to take care of Popeye, and Tender was there! Gloria said that Karla's mom didn't let her keep him.  I feel so bad for Karla...........


----------



## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I just went over to Mexico to take care of Popeye, and Tender was there! Gloria said that Karla's mom didn't let her keep him.  I feel so bad for Karla...........


So what happens with Tender now? I, too, am sorry that Karla had to give him up.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I guess he'll have to stay at the church until I can release him...


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Lovebirds said:


> You are a ROLE MODEL for every young person on this forum (and the old fogies like me too I guess). Wonderful pictures. Very heartwarming and touching to see a young person like yourself take the TIME and EFFORT to do what needs to be done to insure the survival of these gorgeous little feathered, needy, birds. Thank you...........


And to quote Mr Squeaks: _< "I AGREE 100%!! WELL DONE! GREAT PICTURES! A pleasure to follow your adventures on this forum! All the best!">_

Ditto to both, from another (you're not so old, lovebirds  ) fogie  
I remember being 16, and you would not have found me performing surgery.
You and Pidgey (and all the rest) have amazed and amused me, more power to you !

Oh, and _Tender where are you?_ , especially with that caption, cracked me up  

Carol


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, my favorite is Tender riding Popeye and I think the caption: "Giddyup!" needs to be added.
> 
> "Hi, Ho, Popeye... AWAY!!!"
> 
> Pidgey


*THE LONE TENDER RIDES AGAIN!!*


----------



## mr squeaks

So, I'm assuming you added the caption, Alice??

Well, you can always call the picture, "THE LONE TENDER RIDES AGAIN!!

Now, all he needs is a "sidekick" companion, like the Speedy Gonzalez, the "fastest mouse in all Mexico!"


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'll have to think about that last one...

P.S. I forgot to answer you. lol Yes, _but_ I didn't think it up (I wouldn't want to make Pidgey mad by taking all the credit  ).


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I'll have to think about that last one...
> 
> P.S. I forgot to answer you, lol, yes.


Hey, you did all the work! NICE GOING! That is such a funny picture! Save it for our next contest!

Meanwhile, if there are other contests around...

(I only mentioned the "sidekick" because the REAL Lone Ranger had Tonto. Speedy was the only one I could relate to Mexico!) 

Mmmm, y'know though, with photoshop or whatever those areas are that can "add" or whatever. I am sooooo computer dumb...but you get the "picture?" LOL


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, I was just trying to figure out how I could get a picture of Speedy...
I'm afraid I'm just as or more so computer dumb so I think I'll have to leave it to someone else...


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I'll have to think about that last one...
> 
> P.S. I forgot to answer you. lol Yes, _but_ I didn't think it up (I wouldn't want to make Pidgey mad by taking all the credit  ).


TRUST ME...you won't make him mad!!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'll try to trust you, honestly I will, but...


----------



## Pidgey

MIZZZ Squawks is currently retired and firmly believes that it's her destiny in life to be my nemesis. Don't trust her.

Pidgey the Wary


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Well, I was just trying to figure out how I could get a picture of Speedy...
> I'm afraid I'm just as or more so computer dumb so I think I'll have to leave it to someone else...


There must be a mouse on line somewhere! I found my "mouse with attitude" for my forearm tattoo, looking up at a cat silhouette, on-line, while looking for paw prints...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

> MIZZZ Squawks is currently retired and firmly believes that it's her destiny in life to be my nemesis. Don't trust her.
> 
> Pidgey the Wary


Well, on 2nd thought, if I don't trust her I can't trust _any_body because I _certainly_ can't trust you!


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> MIZZZ Squawks is currently retired and firmly believes that it's her destiny in life to be my nemesis. Don't trust her.
> 
> Pidgey the Wary


HEY, I'm SURE that Alice will ALWAYS give you credit, Pidgey! 

SHE likes and trusts you, unlike a few of us who have learned the errors of our ways!  

*(beware, Alice, of pidgeys, I mean pigeons, bearing "gifts!")*


----------



## Pidgey

Listen, Licha,

Just because she lives in AZ (like you), doesn't mean she's family. She lives near the big heathern city (Phoenix) which is, in itself, a heathern concept in more ways than one. I'm just an Okie (the buckle of the Bible Belt) and we figger' that all other folk are just family we ain't met, yet, albeit many of 'em are black sheep (this definitely means MIZZZ Squawks).

But, at least, she comes by it honest so you can _forgive_ her--you just can't _trust_ her.

Honest Pidgeon


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

mr squeaks said:


> HEY, I'm SURE that Alice will ALWAYS give you credit, Pidgey!
> 
> *SHE likes and trusts you, unlike a few of us who have learned the errors of our ways!  *
> 
> *(beware, Alice, of pidgeys, I mean pigeons, bearing "gifts!")*


 I wouldn't be so sure, Miss Squeaks, I know a lot more about Senor Pidgey than I did when I first started this thread. As a matter of fact, he just got through accusing me of feeding him worms!!!!!


----------



## mr squeaks

OOPS! Oh oh...looks I didn't need to speak so soon.

Alice: Pidgey may be devastated! I mean, ME, I can take his slings and arrows. But, YOU, he seems to LIKE and believe me, THAT's a RARE gift...

Could you backtrack a little or something?


----------



## Pidgey

You're NEVER supposed to feed a Pidgey worms! Worms have worms. Bad ones. Only adult robins can tolerate them.

Pidgey the Unwormy


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> You're NEVER supposed to feed a Pidgey worms! Worms have worms. Bad ones. Only adult robins can tolerate them.
> 
> Pidgey the Unwormy


 You're NEVER supposed to accuse a little innocent girl like me of feeding a pidgey worms.
Licha the Kindhearted, _Innocent,_ Bird Lover


----------



## mr squeaks

Uh - you mean he accused YOU of feeding HIM (Pidgey) worms? OR, Tender? OR, Popeye?

Oh, I'm, like Victor, at times, a little "coNffusssssssed!"  

Oh boy, gee, Alice, I am TRULY sorry that you and the Pidge are not seeing - uh - eye to eye? 

THAT is a shock! How fast things go down the ole tubes, eh?

Oh, don't mind his talk about "heathens" - he just doesn't understand about "enlightened" thinking...he just hasn't advanced too far beyond Noah...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Listen, Licha,
> 
> Just because she lives in AZ (like you), doesn't mean she's family. She lives near the big heathern city (Phoenix) which is, in itself, a heathern concept in more ways than one. I'm just an Okie (the buckle of the Bible Belt) and we figger' that all other folk are just family we ain't met, yet, albeit many of 'em are black sheep (this definitely means MIZZZ Squawks).
> 
> But, at least, she comes by it honest so you can _forgive_ her--you just can't _trust_ her.
> 
> Honest Pidgeon


 OK, I'll forgive her, apparantly she just made a mistake. And I won't trust her in this incident, I will continue in my belief that you _will _get mad if I take all the credit.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Miss Squeaks, he accused me of fedding_ him_ (Senor Pidgey) buggs.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Dear Miss Squeaks, 
Here is what he (Senor Pidgey) told me...

* "I'm totally bugged up with you fedding me."*

You see, Miss Squeaks, he even acted like the worms were in his brain and thereby not letting him think and speak clearely.
Licha


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> Listen, Licha,
> 
> Just because she lives in AZ (like you), doesn't mean she's family. She lives near the big heathern city (Phoenix) which is, in itself, a heathern concept in more ways than one. I'm just an Okie (the buckle of the Bible Belt) and we figger' that all other folk are just family we ain't met, yet, albeit many of 'em are black sheep (this definitely means MIZZZ Squawks).
> 
> But, at least, she comes by it honest so you can _forgive_ her--you just can't _trust_ her.
> 
> Honest Pidgeon


*GASP* Oh NO! I am simply heartbroken! Here I thought Pidgey was just a great person, helping young people such as yourself and now I find out....oh, *sob* I am just devatated! 

As much as I hate to say this, PLEASE be careful about this Pidgey I thought I knew. I know many members will also be shocked! 

Just goes to show ya that a pigeon in feathers may be something else in fur!

Pidgey! Get back on those meds before someone else believes you!


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Dear Miss Squeaks,
> Here is what he (Senor Pidgey) told me...
> 
> * "I'm totally bugged up with you fedding me."*
> 
> You see, Miss Squeaks, he even acted like the worms were in his brain and thereby not letting him speak clearely.
> Licha


Well, in my opinion, that's NOT ALL that's plugged up! And, not speaking clearly can be par for the course, unfortunately!  

(See my post about "meds!")


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

hmmm... Miss Squeaks, I see now... Senor Pidgey must be getting very lazy and wanted _me_ to give him his meds. This is more of our conversation showing him trying to persuade _me_ to give him his (much needed) meds.

_* Senor Pidgey: I'm totally bugged up with you fedding me. 

Licha: Well, I hope I don't have to doctor you from fedding you buggs. 

Senor Pidgey: I think they make a powder for that.*_

Licha the Undeceived


----------



## Pidgey

You gals are just having a ball over here while my guard's down because I'm trying to handle those sick and injured threads, huh? Kick a pidgey while he's down, why don'tcha'? To top it off, I just got a call from a store that a pigeon walked into as soon as someone opened the door and it's a store that carries medical and other supplies for animals!

Anyhow, two (or more) can play this game:



AZfiddler_1996 said:


> you... ...getting totally fed up with my bugging you."


To which I answered something silly to be nice!

Nice Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> You gals are just having a ball over here while my guard's down because I'm trying to handle those sick and injured threads, huh? Kick a pidgey while he's down, why don'tcha'? To top it off, I just got a call from a store that a pigeon walked into as soon as someone opened the door and it's a store that carries medical and other supplies for animals!
> 
> Anyhow, two (or more) can play this game:
> 
> 
> 
> To which I answered something silly to be nice!
> 
> Nice Pidgey


Yep, the pattern is immerging...after awhile, one learns to "speak" Pidgey...

IF he thinks you can feed him meds, be careful...he's a BIG pidgey!

He has spells like this periodically....one just has to get through them and then, USUALLY, he becomes his usual lovable Pidgey self.

Unfortunately, there are no guarantees and he thinks people (INNOCENT ones at that) are "ganging" up on him...

One just has to wait until the - ah - "accusations" pass...and the - ah - delusions...*sigh* truly a shame you have to witness this, Alice...


----------



## Pidgey

Squeak-cusations, you mean.

Pidgey the Squeak-cused!

(but that's MIZZZter Squeaks to you, Licha!)


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> Squeak-cusations, you mean.
> 
> Pidgey the Squeak-cused!
> 
> (but that's MIZZZter Squeaks to you, Licha!)


LOOK! SEE?! Oh, Alice, DO BE CAREFUL! He just seems to have this vendetta against me...I just don't understand. I'm old enough to be his mother, although he would never admit it! How can he talk about an older, wiser pigeon person like that? Maybe he just wasn't taught manners and to respect his elders...

Well, that's OK if he attacks me, I'm used to it, but I simply won't stand by and see a lovely young person such as yourself get tangled up in such deception! 

Not only that, but he lives in OKLAHOMA! He's not even "home grown!" 

We MUST get him off those buggs or, worse, worms...


----------



## Pidgey

mr squeaks said:


> LOOK! SEE?! Oh, Alice, DO BE CAREFUL! He just seems to have this vendetta against me...I just don't understand. *I'm old enough to be his mother, although he would never admit it*! How can he talk about an older, wiser pigeon person like that? Maybe he just wasn't taught manners and to respect his elders...
> 
> Well, that's OK if he attacks me, I'm used to it, but I simply won't stand by and see a lovely young person such as yourself get tangled up in such deception!
> 
> Not only that, but he lives in OKLAHOMA! He's not even "home grown!"
> 
> We MUST get him off those buggs or, worse, worms...


MIZZZ Squawks!

I don't have a problem admitting that you're old enough to be my mother (started young, didn'tcha'?).

As fp has noted many times, we've got plenty of OklaHomeGrown around here but we spray it for buggs!

Better living through chemistry!

Pidgey the OklaHomeGrown


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> MIZZZ Squawks!
> 
> I don't have a problem admitting that you're old enough to be my mother (started young, didn'tcha'?).
> 
> As fp has noted many times, *we've got plenty of OklaHomeGrown around here but we spray it for buggs!*
> 
> ****I CANNOT believe you said that! Is that right!
> 
> *Better living through chemistry!*
> 
> ****Oh, I just bet there is! Ever export?**** I wouldn't "advertise" if I were you. Ya never know who's "listening/watching!"
> 
> Pidgey the OklaHomeGrown



Well, looks like the above statements solve and explain EVERYTHING...mmmmm, wonder if your city has an OHG Chemistry Dependent Chapter?

**** If you do export, send some to me. I need it to spray any OklaHomeGrown that I catch around here. Of course, I have to be sure it works first!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> You gals are just having a ball over here while my guard's down because I'm trying to handle those sick and injured threads, huh? Kick a pidgey while he's down, why don'tcha'? To top it off, I just got a call from a store that a pigeon walked into as soon as someone opened the door and it's a store that carries medical and other supplies for animals!
> 
> Anyhow, two (or more) can play this game:
> 
> 
> 
> To which I answered something silly to be nice!
> 
> Nice Pidgey


 Now, now, Pidgey. I was being very gracious in not bringing the rest of that up and you turn around like an ungrateful thing. 
Miss Squeaks (she _is _Miss Squeaks to me, Pidgey, I've never heard of a "Mister" Shirley down in this part of the world- maybe you've got them up in Okie?), 


* Licha: Uhoh. Did I make you mad at me?? (You quit talking to me) 

Pidgey: You worry too much for someone your age.

Licha: Have you ever had something real bad happen and then someone tells you, "Well, it's too late to worry now." Well, I'm just worrying(sp) when I'm 'spose to. 

Pidgey: Oooooooookaaaaaaayyy... What's the real bad thing that hasn't happened yet that you're desperately trying to worry about beforehand? 

and THEN came

Licha: ... "you losing all that patience that you've got and getting totally fed up with my bugging you."* 

Now, why, pray tell, would I ever even have to say something like that?
And then to make matters worse, Senor Pidgey added to it all by saying that I was feeding him worms!!


----------



## Pidgey

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> And then to make matters worse, Senor Pidgey added to it all by saying that I was feeding him worms!!


ARRGGGH!

NOT WORMS... 

BUGGS!!! 

B-U-G-G-S!!!

<pant!> <pant!> <wheeeeeeeeezzzee!>

You're KILLING me!!!

One Bugged Pidgey Who'll Only Be Worm-Ridden When The Embalming Fluid Wears Off


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> You're NEVER supposed to feed a Pidgey worms! Worms have worms. Bad ones. Only adult robins can tolerate them.
> 
> Pidgey the Unwormy


 ¡El señor Pidgey se contradijo!
Ignore the rest of it, will you, like a Pidgey who knows better. But that's ok, it was for _MISS_ Squeaks anyway so that she could know what _really _happened. 
And there you go again, trying to touch the soft part of my heart to give you your (much needed) meds... you lazy Pidgey!


----------



## Feather

Hi Alice, 

I love all of your pictures! ChiChicuilote would make a good sidekick for Popeye and Tender. Can you find a picture of him?

Anyways.....I think he is Pidgey aka "The Thorned Rooster" in animation.

Tender is a beautiful name for that baby. 

I don't know who to trust around here. Shi Squeaks is so shy that she types a post and them runs back behind her door. So she's safe. But Rallow and Pidgey with their egg smuggleing have me suspecious. They got Phil addicted in Las Vegas and now he is begging for help to stop. Smugglers have no concious you know. What ever you do....don't give Pidgey any meds. Or don't get him wet after midnight.
He has several personalities, and we don't want any naughty one popping up.

Feather


----------



## mr squeaks

Yes, Pidgey is quite the buggy bird, isn't he? He should be taking his OWN meds, not bugging you about it Alice...for shame! 

Uh, btw? WHERE did "mister Shirley" come from? If, from where I think, someone will be in deeper trouble than being buggy... 

Well, I can see that you won't let Pidgey pull the feathers over YOUR eyes! Thank goodness, you have seen the light!


----------



## mr squeaks

Feather said:


> Hi Alice,
> 
> I love all of your pictures! ChiChicuilote would make a good sidekick for Popeye and Tender. Can you find a picture of him?
> 
> *I've never heard of ChiChietc....who is it?*
> 
> Anyways.....I think he is Pidgey aka "The Thorned Rooster" in animation.
> 
> *Mmmm, sounding better all the time!*
> 
> Tender is a beautiful name for that baby.
> 
> I don't know who to trust around here. Shi Squeaks is so shy that she types a post and them runs back behind her door. So she's safe.
> 
> *That WAS true, but, luckily Super Squeaks is here, so I don't have to hide anymore!*
> 
> But Rallow and Pidgey with their egg smuggleing have me suspecious. They got Phil addicted in Las Vegas and now he is begging for help to stop.
> 
> **GASP* NOT PHIL! The one with ALL those wonderful *sigh* - ah - techniques? NO! Say it isn't true!*
> 
> Smugglers have no concious you know. What ever you do....don't give Pidgey any meds.
> He has several personalities, and we don't want any naughty one popping up.
> 
> *THANK YOU FEATHER! I've been warning Alice! However, she's really smart and I think is beginning to see Pidgey for who he REALLY might be!*
> 
> Feather


*We must stay ever vigilant!*


----------



## Feather

Iffin he's embalmed, he might not be anyone. 

Or maybe that is the beverage of choice in his Fancy French Restaraunt.

ChiChiquilote is a roudy little Mexican Rooster. He can sing! When ever I hear him, I get happy and start to dance. 

Feather


----------



## mr squeaks

Hey, a SINGING sidekick for Tender! I LOVE it! What 'cha think Alice??

Poor Pidgey had a rough day and is now taking a much needed rest from his work as his alter ego: *Guardian of Broken Pigeons*. I used my Scorpio Power to send him lots of warm healing light. After all, we can't have a Pidgey who isn't his best when he returns...

However, be on the lookout tomorrow...we don't know WHICH PIDGEY may be back! Especially since he seems to have this thing about "buggs!"


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

mr squeaks said:


> Yes, Pidgey is quite the buggy bird, isn't he? He should be taking his OWN meds, not bugging you about it Alice...for shame!
> 
> Uh, btw? WHERE did "mister Shirley" come from? If, from where I think, someone will be in deeper trouble than being buggy...
> 
> Well, I can see that you won't let Pidgey pull the feathers over YOUR eyes! Thank goodness, you have seen the light!


 *He told me to call you Mizzzter Squeaks. But, really, Pidgey's not all that bad, it's just when (apparently) he hasn't taken his meds and  when he's on Baytryl. (You've gotta be real careful when he's on Baytryl, it appears he goes senile.) But other than that he's pretty good... to me, anyway...  ....*
....What was that again about Pidgeys bearing gifts, Miss Squeaks?

*Licha the Gracious*


----------



## mr squeaks

Well, I certainly know that YOU would be gracious! It's that buggy Pidgey ya gotta watch out for!

Y'see, I, too thought he was something else when I first saw/read all his wonderful helpful postings. Now, MAYBE it was the Baytril...that caused a change. Don't know. But, as Feather and I found out, there are "other" Pidgeys lurking...AND, in your case, BE especially careful if he starts speaking with a horrible Spanish accent... He's multi-lingual, y'know...

Feather and Super Squeaks may have to be called to "duty!" 

BTW, do you think Tender would like a singing companion named ChiChi??


----------



## Pidgey

U kise are not vee-ry nice--I ham eenocint of eevrytheeng. Mio Baytreel I geet froom Meh-he-co, hweere hall the otheer good "theengs" come froom. Thees thread ees getteeng too far froom Popeye and hees amigo, Teender. Pleeze to kindly reestreect sus commeentos a la subjectivo correcto.

Gracias.

Peedgey Gonzales


----------



## mr squeaks

OH NOOOOO!!

Danger, danger...it's the MAD Pidgey again! The Baytril got him! (AT least! If not the embalming fluid or the clear liquid in assorted glass bottles - which, come to think of it, is the SAME thing!)  

FEATHER, you and Super Squeaks are needed!

We ARE trying to SAVE Tender and Popeye, who could become under the spell of this evil OK Poo Bandito!  

Alice! Get Tender and Popeye to someplace safe ASAP! They are in danger! The evil Bandito will try and separate them and even interfere with the search for a companion, hopefully the singing ChiChi!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> U kise are not vee-ry nice--I ham eenocint of eevrytheeng. Mio Baytreel I geet froom Meh-he-co, hweere hall the otheer good "theengs" come froom. Thees thread ees getteeng too far froom Popeye and hees amigo, Teender. * Pleeze to kindly reestreect sus commeentos a la subjectivo correcto.*
> 
> Gracias.
> 
> Peedgey Gonzales


 ¡Tu eres el sujeto correcto, Señor Pidgey! 
_Look_ girls!! _"Peedgey Gonzales"_ - _he_ wants to be the companion, no wonder why he's going crazy! That sly Pidgey, he changed "Speedy" to "Peedgey!!"


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> ¡Tu eres el sujeto correcto, Señor Pidgey!
> _Look_ girls!! _"Peedgey Gonzales"_ - _he_ wants to be the companion, no wonder why he's going crazy! That sly Pidgey, he changed "Speedy" to "Peedgey!!"


Oh NO! THAT's even WORSE! Shoot! He can't even sing! Well, that's not entirely true. He did "sing" and that's why he's now a bandito!

But, Alice, you haven't told us WHO you would like as companion. The original Speedy or ChiChi...of course, Feather would have to tell us more about him as I'm not familar with the name.

I hope she comes along soon before this baaad one gets to Tender and Popeye! Or even sweet talks you into accepting him as a possible companion. Heck, with that accent you can tell he doesn't live close to the border! BEWARE...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

> with that accent you can tell he doesn't live close to the border! BEWARE...


 Actually, he sounds like the guy who washes windows when your waiting to come out of Mexico. Last time the guy was trying to persuade us to let him wash it he said, "Loook, one, two, _tree_, four..._seeeeex fleeees_!! Dey are blocking jor veeseebeeleetee!" 
Miss Squeaks, I have a picture of my brother that reminds me a lot of Señor Pidgey. I'm going to ask my mom to see if she can find it and if she can find it (our comp crashed) then I'll post it.  
Licha the Innocent (of the above said)


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Here they are!!!!!!


----------



## Lin Hansen

Alice, great pictures!!!

Linda


----------



## Pidgey

That's nothing like me. I never horse around.

Pidgey the Stoic


----------



## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> That's nothing like me. *I never horse around.*Pidgey the Stoic


GREAT PICTURES THERE, Alice!

Of course you don't Pidgey. I believe you...Y'know why? Because you are not familiar with the front end...NEIGH...!  

*OK, so, Alice, what are your thoughts about a companion for The Lone Tender and Popeye?*

WHERE IS FEATHER? This may be a tough week for her! I hope she is ready to fly to Mexico or at least the border area. Mr. Squeaks is more than ready! He needs to get away from all this fur!


----------



## Feather

Here I am! I sent Pete a picture of Chichicuilote to post in this thread. Do you know of him Alice? He's that little Rooster....or maybe he is a buzzard.

Feather


----------



## mr squeaks

Feather said:


> Here I am! I sent Pete a picture of Chichicuilote to post in this thread. Do you know of him Alice? He's that little Rooster....or *maybe he is a buzzard.*
> Feather


Oh, I like that better, Feather...Pidgey, the "Thorned Buzzard!"


----------



## Reti

Those are great pics, Alice.

Reti


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, Miss Squeaks, I think I'll just have to wait until I see the picture of Chichicuilote so I'll have a better idea. No, I don't think I've ever met him, Feather. 
Licha


----------



## Pete Jasinski

Here's Feather's pic all, enjoy.....


----------



## mr squeaks

I think ChiChi is a cutie! Many thanks for posting, Pete! Nice going to you too, Feather!

Well, it's now really up to you, Alice, to choose a "sidekick." I see three choices:

The REAL Speedy Gonzales
ChiChietc.
The Speedy Gonzales pretender (a.k.a. OK Bandito, the Mexican MAD Scientist)


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

mr squeaks said:


> I think ChiChi is a cutie! Many thanks for posting, Pete! Nice going to you too, Feather!
> 
> Well, it's now really up to you, Alice, to choose a "sidekick." I see three choices:
> 
> The REAL Speedy Gonzales
> ChiChietc.
> The Speedy Gonzales pretender (a.k.a. OK Bandito, the Mexican MAD Scientist)


 *Weeeeeeeell, let's see here...
I'd choose ChiChi over Speedy (the real Speedy) .........so that leaves Peedgey Gonzales......hmmm.............that's a hard choice......let's see.............. Ah, and ChiChicuilote it is! (Peedgey is way to BIG to be Tender's "sidekick" companion)*
* ~Licha*


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> *Weeeeeeeell, let's see here...
> I'd choose ChiChi over Speedy (the real Speedy) so that leaves Peedgey Gonzales......hmmm.....that's a hard choice......let's see.............. Ah, and ChiChicuilote it is! (Peedgey is way to BIG to be Tender's "sidekick" companion)*
> * ~Licha*


Kinda had a "feelin'" you'd choose ChiChi...after all, he IS AVIAN...

Yeah, Peedgey is "big" alright...especially since he thinks "more in one" is better. You have to be prepared because you never know if you're dealing with the normal (well...kinda) rational English speaking "******" or the evil Peedgey (bandito) who speaks with a horrible Spanish accent!

Also, don't know what else he's planning. Of course, IF you are lucky, he has decided that we have his number and he will "surrender." 

He's also outnumbered by, at least *3 *(4 if you count S.S.) to ONE...(one female would be more than equal to the task, but three??? NO WAY, Senor Pidgey (a.k.a. Peedgey)!


----------



## Feather

Good Morning Ladies!

Actually...I thought Chichicuilote was a pretty good animation version of Pidgey aka (The Thorned Rooster). So in animation form he is just the right size. If Tender got shot by los bandidos or those roudy Gringos in el norte, Pidgey (ChiChi) would be perfect to patch up wounds and sing a little song to that soothes all boo boos. I don't think the mouse should be counted out completely. Little Speedy will be a good ali and needed to help from time to time. You know Victor is part Mexican and may be able to feel the Gonzales charater quite well. Then again there is always "Stash the Cash" "Phil" "Pete" "Jersey George" Oh so many men.

Feather


----------



## mr squeaks

Feather said:


> Good Morning Ladies!
> 
> Actually...I thought Chichicuilote was a pretty good animation version of Pidgey aka (The Thorned Rooster). So in animation form he is just the right size. If Tender got shot by los bandidos or those roudy Gringos in el norte, Pidgey (ChiChi) would be perfect to patch up wounds and sing a little song to that soothes all boo boos. I don't think the mouse should be counted out completely. Little Speedy will be a good ali and needed to help from time to time. *You know Victor is part Mexican and may be able to feel the Gonzales charater quite well. Then again there is always "Stash the Cash" "Phil" "Pete" "Jersey George" Oh so many men.
> 
> Feather*




Not to rain on your parade, Feather, BUT, I have a feelin' Senor Pidgey/Peedgey will wanna go it alone. It's a MACHO thing...besides, I really haven't seen any of the men you've named "proven" in battle...

Although, out of all of 'em, JG would be my choice...with all those males pijies he has, I'm sure he could give Senor Pidgey/Peedgey a run for his money OR us, for that matter - IF he teamed up with the evil one...

Of course, VICTOR does have the background but he's up to his sombrero in pijie training...

PHIL is too peace loving. I couldn't bear to see HIM hurt (I mean, those 'calm pij techniques' of his are sooooo niiiiccceee *sigh*) Nope, not Phil...

PETE? Possibly...he's kinda a "warrior" type if I remember correctly...young, but possible...Nope, forgot, he's a MODERATOR. 

*MODERATORS are OFF LIMITS.* They have their "image" to maintain. Besides, I don't know how much "decorum" I will be able to maintain, given the current cast of characters! ROFL

STASH is too young...needs a few more years...

There's also GEORGE SIMON, but he's too dignified to stoop this low...

JOHN D is too far above all these shennanigans...besides, he has to keep watch on his side of the pond...AND, he's also a MODERATOR!

BRAD, too, no way, he's a MOD too, BIG time...

Anyone else you want me to "critique?" ROFL Do feel free to add your own opinions...


----------



## Victor

*Hola, Este es Senor Victor, Deed somebowdies col my name?I have been verrde beeesie with mi palomas! *


----------



## Feather

Victor said:


> *Hola, Este es Senor Victor, Deed somebowdies col my name?I have been verrde beeesie with mi palomas! *



Well now...there you have it! Speedy Slape Gonzales right here on P.T..

Feather


Shy Shi, I know we can come up with another Mexican hero for Jersey George, and anyone else who loves to play. Please send Super Squeaks' saprape and Sombrero to the cleaners. We may have to do some undercover work. I saw Pete's buzzard looking this way.

What do you think Alice? We'll let Popeye find us the characters.


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## mr squeaks

Victor said:


> *Hola, Este es Senor Victor, Deed somebowdies col my name?I have been verrde beeesie with mi palomas! *



HOLA! back at 'cha, Victor! Nice to see you - ah - out and about! As you can see, we've been getting into more trouble...well, actually, Senor Pidgey/Peedgey is kinda the instigator. 

If you have time away from your busy schedule and palomas, come join us...of course, you WILL have to decide if you're for or agin the hen contingent. I know that may be difficult, due your own sense of chivalry. If you team with Pidgey, be aware that he is not what he seems. He sometimes "morphs" into this "Peedgey Gonzales" persona and speaks with a horrible Spanish accent (uh, actually, Victor, have you been "talking" to him? I know you can speak better Spanish than that!) He's also "evil." No tellin' what devilment he may get into OR try to rope you into...

JUST a WARNING... 

I'm sure Feather and Alice will have words of wisdom for you too, should you decide to accept any involvement...


----------



## mr squeaks

Feather said:


> Well now...there you have it! Speedy Slape Gonzales right here on P.T..
> 
> Feather
> 
> 
> Shy Shi, I know we can come up with another Mexican hero for Jersey George, and anyone else who loves to play. Please send Super Squeaks' saprape and Sombrero to the cleaners. We may have to do some undercover work. I saw Pete's buzzard looking this way.
> 
> What do you think Alice? We'll let Popeye find us the characters.


Well, IF Speedy Slape Gonzales decides to accept (is he any relation to the notorious Peedgey Gonzales, do you think??? )

Supremo Squeaks is ready with sombrero y serape...ARRIBA! ARRIBA!

Mexico may be too far away for JG, but he would sure be welcomed! 

Pete's a MODERATOR...don't think so, *BUT his buzzard, "El Perfumo" would be perfect to "introduce" to Peedgey!* ROFLMAO


----------



## Feather

I must have read through these posts way to fast. I thought The Thorned Rooster (Pidgey) (ChiChi) was Tender's side kick. That would put him on our side.

If he's not then grab the mouse quick. Keep your eye on that Mexican Mouse we can't lit him go to the other side.

Feather


----------



## mr squeaks

Feather said:


> I must have read through these posts way to fast. I thought The Thorned Rooster (Pidgey) (ChiChi) was Tender's side kick. That would put him on our side.
> 
> If he's not then grab the mouse quick. Keep your eye on that Mexican Mouse we can't lit him go to the other side.
> 
> Feather


Well, I understood that Alice picked ChiChi, the AVIAN singer as sidekick. She rejected Speedy Gonzales (now a.k.a. Speedy Slape Gonzales? POSSIBLE evil relative of Peedgey Gonzales, evil alter ego of Senor Pidgey). AND, she rejected the evil alter ego, Peedgey Gonzales. 

There, you got that? Do I??? LOL

Cast of characters so far (I think): 

Tender (The Lone Tender rider)
Popeye (The Lone Tender's faithful steed)
ChiChi (Lone Tender's sidekick w/Popeye as second favorite)

Alice (a.k.a. Licha)
Feather (a.k.a. Wonder Woman)
Shy Shi (a.k.a. Scorpio Power)
Supremo Squeaks (a.k.a. MISTER Squeaks)
El Perfumo Buzzard (a.k.a Stinky)

Senor Pidgey/Peedgey Gonzales (evil half bandito)
Speedy Slape Gonzales (a.k.a. Victor) (possible, if schedule permits)

Maybe "bit/walk on" extras at times....


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Woe, Miss Squeaks! Beware of Feather!! I do believe that she didn't read your post about being careful of Pidgeys bearing gifts!!! She sounds like a cat in bird's feathers! Don't let her get Speedy too!!


----------



## Feather

Oh no Alice!

I'm on your side. (Super Sqeaks) Shi's bird is Wonder Woman's side kick, she cannot go on any mission without him. They both answer to their Superior
Super Hero Tooter who is located under the Omaha Zoo. Shi also has super powers and we work as a team. I would like to keep Speedy because he can crawl into little spaces, and he is very fast. But of coarse if he is a bad little mousie then that is a different story. 

I asked Pete to post a picture of Speedy, but this is a holiday week-end, and he is probably very busy. 

Have a good week-end

Feather


----------



## Victor

Feather said:


> Oh no Alice!
> 
> I'm on your side. (Super Sqeaks) Shi's bird is Wonder Woman's side kick, she cannot go on any mission without him. They both answer to their Superior
> Super Hero Tooter who is located under the Omaha Zoo.
> 
> Feather


Picture of "El Tooter" conquering the eagle!


----------



## mr squeaks

WOW! GREAT PICTURE OF (EL) TOOTER, SUPREME SUPER HERO GURU TO:

Wonder Woman
Super Squeaks 
Scorpio Power

THANK YOU!

Alice, as you can see, WE HENS have all KINDS of SUPPORT and more than a match of ANY evil Peedgeys. In fact, WE may be TOO much for ANY other forces of evil who show up!

Don't know where Speedy Slape Gonzales fits in yet. He may be a "lurker."

YES, Feather! I'm sure we can use the REAL Speedy Mouse! He can be most helpful! I hope you agree, Alice!

BTW, Alice, do you happen to have an "alter ego?"


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

My dear Tender is missing. They said that she just wasn't there when they got up this morning....


----------



## mr squeaks

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> My dear Tender is missing. They said that she just wasn't there when they got up this morning....


OH NO! We can't even blame the OK Bandito!

Do you think he just flew the "coop" to be on his own?? Was he all right to leave?? Maybe he and ChiChi are out on a "lark"...

If you do not wish to continue "in memory" of The Lone Tender, I'll understand.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Alice, did you check under everything and on top of cabinets and places where he could hide. The little birds are very slippery and fast and can be quiet as a little mouse when you're trying to find them. I had a little sparrow slip out of my hands once and it took me over an hour to catch him. Every time I would find him and make a grab, away he'd go. I felt like a dunce when I did catch him. He was sitting just behind a vase on a foyer table and I didn't see him even tho he was in plain view.

I do hope you find him. Also, do you think the children may have accidently let him go and are afraid to tell you.


----------



## TAWhatley

Alice,

I'm so sorry Tender has gone missing. Like Maggie suggested, check very, very, very carefully absolutely everywhere .. they can hide in plain sight.

That male sparrow in my group of pics today supposedly couldn't fly .. but he could well enough to have come blasting out of the carrier he was in .. promptly went into the evergreen bushes, and we thought we had him cornered in there .. HAH! We actually found and caught him three houses down the street hiding under a pile of fire wood .. very, very lucky for us that the son of the lady who had brought the bird had very sharp eyes.

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

I could do nothing today because I only have about 4 mins total to spend with the birds on Sundays and I had to take care of Popeye. 
I found out this afternoon that it was actually _yesterday_ morning when he showed up missing. There is a family that is living at the church now (Gloria, her brother and her sister) and Gloria said that they looked and couldn't find him. They think he got outside but I see no way that he could have. 
I'm going to go through _every_thing tomorrow when I go over but... 

I feel so sorry for poor Tender and I'm afraid that if I do find him...... he won't be alive......


----------



## Feather

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I could do nothing today because I only have about 4 mins total to spend with the birds on Sundays and I had to take care of Popeye.
> I found out this afternoon that it was actually _yesterday_ morning when he showed up missing. There is a family that is living at the church now (Gloria, her brother and her sister) and Gloria said that they looked and couldn't find him. They think he got outside but I see no way that he could have.
> I'm going to go through _every_thing tomorrow when I go over but...
> 
> I feel so sorry for poor Tender and I'm afraid that if I do find him...... he won't be alive......


Alice,

Until that happens lets just hope for the best. You and Tender will be in my prayers tonight. Maybe something scared him and he is just hiding.

Praying for a positive outcome.
Feather


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## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Feather. I sure hope for the best but I'm afraid that I'm not expecting it.


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## Maggie-NC

Hey Alice, fingers crossed and prayers for you and Tender.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Maggie.  I hope it all turns out ok...


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## AZfiddler_1996

I went through absolutely _every_thing and couldn't find Tender.


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## mr squeaks

I'm sooooo sorry to hear that The Lone Tender can't be found! MAJOR BUMMER!  

I will send good thoughts that he's OK, wherever he is!


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## AZfiddler_1996

Thanks, Miss Squeaks.


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## AZfiddler_1996

This is funny, I happened upon this "fact" on the internet...

_"Popeye originally got his strength from garlic, not spinach."_


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## Feather

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> This is funny, I happened upon this "fact" on the internet...
> 
> _"Popeye originally got his strength from garlic, not spinach."_



Good Morning Alice,

Well that is what Treesa has been trying to tell us all along.

Feather


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## Victor

After all you two have been through together, I hope you find your little Tender. He is in all our thoughts and prayers. Don't give up hope. Keep an eye to the ground, and the other one to the sky. The garlic probably boosted him.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Thanks, Victor....


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## TAWhatley

*Please Start A New Thread For Fun ..*

Hi All,

I may need to reference this thread to the powers that be for getting Popeye legally into the country. I would greatly appreciate it if you all started a new thread for the fun posts. If you would so kindly do that, then I will move the "fun" posts there. This is IMPORTANT, so please do.

Thanks,

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996

Here it is, Terry...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15805


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## Feather

Alice, 

Terry wants you to start a new thread. She needs to show how hard you worked at saving Popeye. She will move all of our make believe postings to the new thread.

Terry, 

We won't be writing any fun stuff just right at this time. As for me, you could just delete the fun stuff. It is up to Alice if she wants to move it to a new thread. 

Feather


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## AZfiddler_1996

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=134048&postcount=525

I did, Feather. 

I don't mind if you delete them either, Terry, but you'd have to delete the new thread, too.


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## Pidgey

Licha,

In this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=124692&postcount=215

...you said that the doctor knew of a good vet in (I'm assuming) the same town that really loved animals. It was originally thought that you might be able to find Popeye a home there. Well, one of the things that we may need to get is a health certificate from a vet in Mexico. We're also looking into the possibility of getting a blood sample to provide to the Powers That Be on this side for testing for avian flu and whatever else. We don't need that yet, it just may be a possibility. We're also looking into the possibility of a quarantine period on the Mexico side under a veterinarian's supervision that can be documented.

Anyhow, we need you to do a little legwork to get in contact with this vet and see if he could help us with this.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Yes, he's in the same town. I'll see what I can do but (unless we get out of school early today, which we do do sometimes) I've got to give lessons on this side of the line and I need to be home for them. (I don't have piano/voice till next week) 
I'm going to print your post out so I don't forget what I'm supposed to ask if we do get to go today. 
I give lessons tomorrow too but I'll do the very best I can to get some info. _I want Popeye to come home so bad, Pidgey_!!


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## AZfiddler_1996

We went by the vet's but he said that he only does dogs and cats. He gave me the address of a Dr. Vildosole in the same town who does health certificates for birds crossing states. No one was home at his house. 
The first vet that I vet to (the one that does dogs and cats) said that he doesn't think there is any place in town that can do the blood sample. 
I'll try again at Dr. Vildosole's house tomorrow...


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## AZfiddler_1996

I was unable to go to Mexico yesterday so I'll have to try on Monday...


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## Pidgey

Okay, Alice, now that you have sutures and instruments in hand, it's time to learn how to use them. You should note first off that the sutures that you have actually have two needles on either end of a 36" length of suture. It's up to the surgeon (this means you) to select how much of the total length to start with for the task at hand. You might, for instance, take a look and decide that you only have three to four sutures to put in and tie. Each suture may only actually use two to three inches of actual suture, say three. And the last suture that you emplace will have the shortest (and therefore most difficult to manage if you've been stingy) so you'd like to have at least a couple of extra inches. Therefore, the minimum that you'd cut would be nine inches of suture with one needle from the total piece for this job. In the hospital, they're either going to use the extra piece somewhere else on the same patient right then and there or they're going to throw it away. We usually try to keep what we've got against a rainy day so thriftiness is our motto.

Besides the different suturing patterns, there are also different knots and even different ways of using the instruments. This webpage has some illustrations on how to use the needle holder:

http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic828.htm

which is the instrument with the odd holes in the jaws. That, by the way, is only one type of a bewildering plethora of needle holders. 

Now, what that webpage above does not show is the use of the other instrument for tying knots. I learned a technique from one of my vets that seems to work very well. It involves one tool in each hand: the needle holder in the right (whichever is your dominant hand) and the other tool (struggling for a name because I don't know what it's called) in the other hand. What that webpage seems to indicate is a suturing technique where one end of the suture is pulled taught with the hand and the short end with the needle holder. I guess that my vet doesn't want to stick himself with the needle so he includes the use of the other instrument.

The suture needle and trailing excess of suture is pulled through until the other end is dragged through to the point of leaving only as much excess as you want to tie off (say, about an inch to two inches). You then twirl the needle holder around the other instrument to make a loop around said instrument and move the nose of the instrument down towards the tail that's the opposite end of the suture length. With the loop still around that instrument, you open it enough to grasp and clamp down on the tail end and pull it through the loop that's still around the instrument. You then pull both instruments outward from each other to tighten the actual knot. It takes some care to maintain the length of tail balanced against the tension from the opposite end as the knot tightens and the suture draws the skin or flesh together.

If I were you, I'd practice the technique with a regular sewing needle and thread, working on a piece of cloth because working needles and tying knots with instruments like this feels a bit odd until you get used to it. It doesn't take long but it'd be better to get used to it on a dead piece of cloth than on Popeye.

I will say that some of the things that don't come up in the treatise are the practical matters of setting one instrument down while you pick up the scissors to cut the suture needle and trailing excess loose from the finished suture. Another thing is that on that suture material, it can be a little fun to get the knot to stay tied. You have to be careful when pulling the first of a series of successive knots tight--you don't want to overtighten. Also, when you do the second knot of each suture, you have to be careful when tightening it because it can cause the first one to overtighten onto the skin itself. When you get to the third knot, you can bear down without too much worry about tightening it onto the skin. In all of the knots, you have to watch the skin to balance the force on either side to keep the knot centered over the wound. That is, if you pull heavy to one side, you'll drag the patient by way of the suture towards the that side. If you're the patient, it kinda' smarts. Incidentally, I usually do about four to five individual knots with that particular suture material on a single stitch. It's worse when it's in a spot that the bird can reach with its beak or scratch with its toes.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Well, a piece of news here, Popeye has developed a swollen and slightly inflamed area behind his right ear. There is some loss of feathers as well. I don't know if we're dealing with an infection or if there might be an ectoparasite problem here. Alice's computer is down for the count so she had to go to the library to give me a lightning PM session. I don't recall ever seeing a spontaneous infection under the skin before and the bird was treated extensively for canker earlier on. I don't know if it could be pox deal--that's another thing that I've never actually seen before so if someone could describe how that starts, it might be helpful.

We definitely want to postpone the cosmetic surgery until after this is resolved. This poor dove!

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Pidgey said:


> We definitely want to postpone the cosmetic surgery until after this is resolved. This poor dove! Pidgey


Rats! Poor Popeye .. so many things this little bird has had to cope with .. now this. I also think we need to be sure what's going on here before I/we push ahead with the plan to get Popeye in to the U.S.

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

Had another session with Alice today. The redness of that area is gone now and the swelling is down. It could have been something like a mosquito bite, I suppose. One thing that she's pretty sure she's seeing now, though, is that his eyes are shrinking inward. That may signify that they might really have gotten punctured and never really healed. I hate to think that and I guess we'll eventually find out for real. She says that his eyes do water some.

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley

Thanks for the update, Pidgey .. please do keep us posted .. I'm sort of "hanging" with the powers that be .. I can't possibly try and get a pox bird into the US .. hope it's not that but mosquito bite isn't too encouraging as that's how pox can happen. My best to you, Alice, and Popeye .. I still think I feel a Mexico vacation in my near future ..

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

I was PMing Alice and she said that Popeye had broken off most of his tail feathers about halfway. That makes me think of Unie because she does that. So, what may be going on with the back of the head is that he's been trying to fly in the cage and has bumped his head. It also seems to me that his first good molt should be any time now. I'd like that idea a whole lot better than the alternative. That doesn't have anything to do with the eyes, of course. I just hope we're wrong about those.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I've been trying to get the vet everyday since Tuesday but nobody has ever been home. Today we stopped by again before church and his wife was there but he wasn't. She told me that I could come back between 8:30 and 9 and I did but they weren't there and we waited for 45 mins and they never showed up.


----------



## Pidgey

Alice finally got to talk with that other vet--"he said that what he has to do is talk to somebody in Hermosillo about getting the stuff to take the blood test and if everything turns out negative he'll send it somewhere (I think Hermosillo) so that it'll be official for the health certificate. He said he doesn't think quarantine is necessary over there only in the US... He asked me to leave my # with his wife and that's it."

So, things are ever so slowly heading to that possibility. Alice is monitoring the eyes and they still seem to be sinking in even further. I think Phil had a pigeon that something like this had happened to and it lost both eyes. As I recall, he actually drove that bird over to Terry's, where I think it lives today.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

After loosing a eye due to inection it does tend to snk in. I have a two year old pigeon who had an eye infection when a baby, his eye is sunken in.
Recently rehabbed a dove with a bad eye infection and her eye is also sunken in. It is normal that a nonfunctional eye atrofies.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

Did the eyeball itself just get smaller or did it go away altogether? Unie's one remaining eye that doesn't see anything looks completely normal.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

These are the pictures that I took of Popeye on June 4th and was never able to download to the computer...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

--------------------------------


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## Pidgey

Well, that's been almost a month and a half ago so how have things changed since?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Oh dear, I'm sorry, not May 4th- _June_ 4th. They're about 11 days old. I'll take some new pictures today.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

--------------------------------------------------------


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## Pidgey

Well, Popeye looks about the same from that side. He seems like he's doing fairly well although you might consider doing that thing of bringing some very small flakes of poop from your loft and putting some powder into his food. That will help him gain the balance of gut flora that the birds of your loft have.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

School has been out since the 16th.  Popeye weighed only 113g the week of the 16th. 
Gloria is living there and she is taking care of Popeye. We clipped Popeye's wings only so that I wouldn't worry so much (that was hard, I've never done it in my life!  ) and she offered to feed Popeye the "hard" way (also to help me not worry so much). Thursday evening Popeye weighed 127g on a mostly empty crop. 
and that's about all I can say...  _I miss my dear Popeye, I hope he can come home soon_...........


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## Maggie-NC

Alice, the weight sounds good. I sure hope you can get him into the US.


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## TAWhatley

*New Popeye Pics!*

There are six terrific new ones at the end .. 

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


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## Birdmom4ever

Great pictures! I loved the ones of him flying and the pix of him with the children brought a tear to my eye.


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## mr squeaks

Popeye looks great to me! Sure hope he can come to the U.S. soon too...


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## AZfiddler_1996

Gloria is the one that is taking care of Popeye since I can't be there, she is wearing a green shirt in the pictures.

Thank you, Terry!

Alice


----------



## Maggie-NC

Alice, Popeye looks wonderful. Gloria is doing a fine job caring for him. He looks well loved by all the children.


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## TAWhatley

*Popeye Is Really Looking Good!*

Alice sent three new pictures of Popeye, and he's really looking good. They are the last three here: http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Terry


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## Reti

wow, she looks absolutely great.
What a lovely dove.
Thanks for sharing the pics.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever

I always enjoy seeing new pictures of him. It's truly amazing to see how far he has come.


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## AZfiddler_1996

These were taken in a big hurry on Sunday. I did take some today but my camera batteries are dead. 
School starts tomorrow which means I'll be back with my dear Popeye. 
You just gotta love that cute face. Poor dear little thing.

Alice


----------



## TAWhatley

Thank for the pictures, Alice! You know we all love Popeye! I'm glad you will be able to see more of Popeye now that school is starting again. You and Pidgey really worked some miracles with Popeye, and I'm so glad you did! 

Terry


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Hi Alice, it's so good to hear an update on Popeye! I bet you can't wait to spend more time with him. His feathers look good in that second picture.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Oh Alice, Popeye looks wonderful. She has been taken good care of during the summer but I'm so happy you'll be able to see her most every day now.

Still hoping you can get her back in the states.


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Reunited!!! How sweet it is  
Yes, (his)  feathers do look great in their adult ECD plumage. 
Thanks for updating ~ and with Lady T and others I'm sure, am still hoping too, that Popeye can come across that border with you (God willing, of course). 
Carol

p.s.
I've enjoyed all of your various signatures, BTW


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## TAWhatley

You're really lookin' good, Popeye! Thanks for the new pictures, Alice!

Terry


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## mr squeaks

Lookin' Gooooood!!!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Licha, 

Popeye has come a long way for sure! He looks like quite a chubby fellow now too His feathers look soo much better and finally he looks like a real ring neck dove How are his eyes...can he see out of both? The eyelids don't seem to be as puckered either.

Congratulations to yourself and Pidgey for such good care and rehab of Popeye


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## AZfiddler_1996

Doctor Arevalo asked about Epamin for Popeye.

No, Brad, he can't see at all and I'm afraid he's losing his eyes altogether. Popeye means so much and is very dear to me.

Alice


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## Pidgey

Is Dr. Arevalo the same (human) doctor that we dealt with during the time when we were working through the injury to the head?

Epamin is a Spanish name for our Dilantin, which is an AED (Anti Epileptic Drug) used to minimize or stop the occurrence of seizures. I vaguely remember that Popeye was having problems like that some time ago (it's almost been months) but haven't heard any new news about that since then.

For the record, AED's can be dangerous drugs for a few reasons. The worst is that once you get on them, it can become VERY important to maintain the dosing with excessive regularity. If you miss, it can be bad. I had looked into this for my bird YoYo and eventually decided that he was better off without them, mostly for this reason. It seems like birds needed more frequent dosing due to the fact that their metabolisms are much higher, too. I also seem to remember that my avian vet had said that they typically only treated the worst epileptic seizures (lasting several minutes or longer) with Valium (Diazepam, I think) injected in. I'm a'thinkin' that other than that, they really didn't go for anything else much due to the dangers.

Another danger with some of the AEDs had to do with requiring occasional bloodwork to monitor liver enzymes and such. When they start talking about stuff like that (possible damage to the liver), it's time to really think it over.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Is Dr. Arevalo the same (human) doctor that we dealt with during the time when we were working through the injury to the head?
> 
> Pidgey


 Yes, he is.

Alice


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## Pigeonpal2002

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> No, Brad, he can't see at all and I'm afraid he's losing his eyes altogether. Popeye means so much and is very dear to me.
> 
> Alice



Hi Alice...thanks for letting me know. I wasn't sure if he had some sight in one eye, both or neither. He looks much better than he did though and great results have been achieved with him


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Is Dr. Arevalo the same (human) doctor that we dealt with during the time when we were working through the injury to the head?
> 
> Epamin is a Spanish name for our Dilantin, which is an AED (Anti Epileptic Drug) used to minimize or stop the occurrence of seizures. I vaguely remember that Popeye was having problems like that some time ago (it's almost been months) but haven't heard any new news about that since then.
> 
> Pidgey


 He never stopped but I didn't know how bad it was till school started. He has to stay in his cage; I cannot keep him out with me anymore because he has too many. His head jerks nonstop all day. Dr. Arrevalo said that if it continues to worsen he won't be able to eat and he won't be able to stand.


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## Reti

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> No, Brad, he can't see at all and I'm afraid he's losing his eyes altogether. Popeye means so much and is very dear to me.
> 
> Alice



Alice, Popeye means a lot to all of us.

Reti


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## mr squeaks

YIKES! I didn't know Popeye was having seizures! Thought he was coming along just fine!

My heart and best healing thoughts go out to you, Popeye and all who are watching him!

Hopefully, something can be done. That prognosis does not sound that good.


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## Pidgey

Well, I guess this means that you're going to need to describe these seizures in detail. A video would be helpful. I think with birds that the most frequently prescribed AED is Phenobarbital for ongoing control and they only use Diazepam (Valium) in acute (bad and sudden) seizures:

http://vetextension.psu.edu/Newsletters/Companion Animals/vn03013.htm

When it comes to trying for a differential diagnosis, you might want to read this one and then watch Popeye carefully, try to figure out what's going on:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/davehansen/nervous.html

Everything (in terms of their behavior) just before, during and after a seizure is important to note. I can tell when YoYo is getting ready to have one because of the way he starts glancing behind him. I can disturb him by picking him up and taking him outside to fly but I'm only postponing the onset of a seizure when I do that. 

Popeye definitely has cause to be epileptic because injuries to the head are amongst the known causes. However, it might not be a bad idea to feed him an occasional Kaytee meal (tube it in) in order to assure that it's not a deficiency disorder.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> I can tell when YoYo is getting ready to have one because of the way he starts glancing behind him. I can disturb him by picking him up and taking him outside to fly but I'm only postponing the onset of a seizure when I do that.
> 
> Pidgey


 With Popeye his head jerking gets faster and then he'll usually (most of the time but not all the time) start turning in circles. After the seizure his head jerks faster as before the attack. 
I also can dusturb Popeye by picking him up. 
I don't know how long the attacks would actually last if I didn't intervene. When he has one, as soon as I get there and pick him up it will usually stop though sometimes he will keep it up a few seconds in my hands. 
I took a video. I let him go for as long as I could stand it, it seemed like forever. 9 seconds. I had him out for 20 mins during lunch and he had 5 attacks during that time. I don't think that he has them when he is in his cage, I never hear anything. It seems that he gets them when he's confused. I asked Gloria today if she ever took him out and she said no.
I wish so much that I could have Popeye home but.. but I don't see any way that he could pass like this. If Popeye was here I could work with him so much more. Popeye has no life in Mexico. Oh, Pidgey, it's hard! It's so hard!


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## Pidgey

Well, that actually may be something like an anxiety attack rather than epilepsy per se. Unie moves her head in jerks in order to determine where a sound is coming from. It's a little bit more difficult for them because their ears don't have the external structure that ours do and they're closer together. It works better for them when sounds are higher pitched. Unie, for instance, never fails to miss when I'm trying to get a scrunched-up piece of tissue paper near her bad eye to wipe excess tears or mucous off. That funny hiss that moving that paper makes that we almost can't hear tips her off and it's like she can see it... and quickly! She's got it in her beak and is ripping it out of my hands into confetti. But lower pitches make a larger "field" due to the increased wavelength and it's a lot harder for her to determine direction, thus the Stevie Wonder-like movements. And she does turn around trying to figure it out sometimes.

I have seen her get very agitated when some weird music was on, or some other weird thing was going on the radio. NPR, for instance, has enough odd music that I can't leave it on there for her. I've seen her going 'round and 'round trying to figure out what's coming to "get her". It takes awhile after you switch to something milder for her to calm down, too.

With YoYo, it's different. His head pulls back sharply around counter-clockwise (as seen from above) and then he starts circling, occasionally stepping on his tail (which pulls to the left) and left wing. The eye also sort of vibrates in the socket and isn't looking at anything in particular anymore. 

An epileptic episode will usually have three parts: pre-ictal, ictal and post-ictal phases. For YoYo in the pre-ictal phase, he just seems to glance backward over his left shoulder a few times, each one getting longer until the full seizure (ictal phase) starts, that I described above. When the worst is over, he stops and stands straight up looking around in minor disorientation to get his bearings (post-ictal).

You could try the Phenobarbital but there's a real science to that. Personally, I'd first tend to try getting him out and getting him more used to being held. He may just need to get re-acquainted with the uncertainties of being "out".

Another possibility would be to get him his own mate to live in the cage with him. That might take time, supervision and that sort of thing but it might be worth a try. Yet another possibility might be to let him drink a little beer before getting out of the cage. I've actually been thinking about this for YoYo. You're not looking for a drunk bird, just enough to "take the edge off". I know you're a teetotaler, but the medication (Phenobarbital) is similar to the effect of alcohol. I haven't worked out a dosing yet but I might work on that as an experiment. I'm sure that YoYo won't... <hiccup!> ...mind very much!

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I can very well see how they could be anxiety attacks. The head jerking isn't him trying to figure out where sounds are coming from, it is literally nonstop all day, in cage or out of it. The Dr. said that it is an inner ear problem. 
Popeye's attacks aren't all exactely the same... like one time he was doing backwards somersaults (sp) a million miles an hour and the one I got on video was something else. I'm uploading the video now so it'll be a few days vefore they'll verify it. I could try e-mailing it to you, Pidgey.


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## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I wish so much that I could have Popeye home but.. but I don't see any way that he could pass like this. If Popeye was here I could work with him so much more. Popeye has no life in Mexico. Oh, Pidgey, it's hard! It's so hard!


Alice,

I, too, wish Popeye could come home with you. As you know, I spent a lot of time and effort in finding out what it would take to get Popeye legally into the United States .. I just didn't see how we could do it without stressing Popeye to death in the process. There would be reams of paperwork, some fairly substantial fees, and Popeye would need to be flown directly out of Mexico to California (and would need a health certificate before leaving Mexico), then transferred to the quarantine center for 30 days, and then could finally be legally here in the U.S. The paperwork and money, I figured we could get handled, but trying to figure out how Popeye would or could handle the trip and the quarantine made me stop.

I don't condone breaking the laws of our country or those of any other, but it sure seems at times that some exceptions should be made .. Popeye would be one.

Terry


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## mr squeaks

Sure wish Prednisone could help Popeye liked it helped Cindy's Pij!  

WARM HUGS TO POPEYE!


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## Birdmom4ever

I'm so sad to hear about the seizures.  When did he start having them, over the summer? I sure do wish you could get him to the U.S.


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## AZfiddler_1996

TAWhatley said:


> Alice,
> 
> I, too, wish Popeye could come home with you. As you know, I spent a lot of time and effort in finding out what it would take to get Popeye legally into the United States .. I just didn't see how we could do it without stressing Popeye to death in the process. There would be reams of paperwork, some fairly substantial fees, and Popeye would need to be flown directly out of Mexico to California (and would need a health certificate before leaving Mexico), then transferred to the quarantine center for 30 days, and then could finally be legally here in the U.S. The paperwork and money, I figured we could get handled, but trying to figure out how Popeye would or could handle the trip and the quarantine made me stop.
> 
> I don't condone breaking the laws of our country or those of any other, but it sure seems at times that some exceptions should be made .. Popeye would be one.
> 
> Terry


 Dearest Terry, you don't know how much I appreciate all you've done to find out how to cross Popeye. But I'm afraid that if something doesn't change it would be, as you said, too much stress on him. And I have no idea what he would have to go through. 
Just the fact of breaking the law is not the only reason that I can't cross Popeye illegally. There are different.. reasons in our situation down here. And one simple reason is that my parents won't let me. 
It is so very hard. But I can't give up. I won't give up. There is nothing to do but try with all my heart.. and I will. I can only work with Popeye 50 minutes a day, 4 days a week. I will. It's all I can do. I don't know about his future, I can't know. It's hard, very hard.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4446708295700088712


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## TAWhatley

Well, Alice, you know I love you and I love Popeye and want only the best for the two of you. 

I honestly think that Popeye needs to have a permanent place, as in cage or enclosure, where all his "stuff" is ALWAYS in the same place. I suspect you already have this set up this way, but if not, it's essential for birds that are blind or severely vision impaired.

I have two blind pigeons and a blind duck that live with me, so I'm not totally without experience with blind birds. I must say that I think Pidgey's bird, Unie, is one in a million .. I KNOW I could not let my two blind pigeons fly here in any degree of safety and don't even consider it. Personally, I think Popeye needs to be set up in the most comfortable quarters that can be had and mostly be left to be in those quarters. When you or Gloria are around, then by all means "announce" yourself to Popeye and ASK him if he would like to come out and/or be handled. He will "TELL" you what he would like to do.

Popeye was flailing in the video and/or having a seizure, and that's not good. You already said as much .. it was worse than I thought.

Terry


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## Pidgey

Well, I discovered last night that Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) can be used as a sedative at 2-4 mg/kg, BID. I've got a 25 milligram pill dissolving in a cup right beside me to see how it does--it's looking like it tends to sediment out similar to how Metronidazole (Flagyl) does. Therefore, you'd need to do it the same way--dissolve it the best you can and shake the fool out of it before you draw a sample. Popeye would need about 1/100th of an actual 25 milligram pill so you could try diluting it in 100 milliliters of water and then drawing up a 1 milliliter dose to put down the crop.

Give that a shot and we'll see if that helps with the DDx (Differential Diagnoses). We also should start getting the Kaytee in the bird or at least some vitamin supplements in the water (don't overdo it, though). There are deficiencies that can cause abnormal head movements and other neurological signs, Vitamin E, Selenium and Thiamine, to name a few.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

TAWhatley said:


> Well, Alice, you know I love you and I love Popeye and want only the best for the two of you.
> 
> I honestly think that Popeye needs to have a permanent place, as in cage or enclosure, where all his "stuff" is ALWAYS in the same place. I suspect you already have this set up this way, but if not, it's essential for birds that are blind or severely vision impaired.
> 
> I have two blind pigeons and a blind duck that live with me, so I'm not totally without experience with blind birds. I must say that I think Pidgey's bird, Unie, is one in a million .. I KNOW I could not let my two blind pigeons fly here in any degree of safety and don't even consider it. Personally, I think Popeye needs to be set up in the most comfortable quarters that can be had and mostly be left to be in those quarters. When you or Gloria are around, then by all means "announce" yourself to Popeye and ASK him if he would like to come out and/or be handled. He will "TELL" you what he would like to do.
> 
> Popeye was flailing in the video and/or having a seizure, and that's not good. You already said as much .. it was worse than I thought.
> 
> Terry


 Terry, yes, Unie is one in a million. I pretty much gave up any hope for Popeye to fly because there is no way that he could fly with his constant head jerking (I got a video of that as well and I'm uploading it now). I only want Popeye to enjoy life. I don't want him to stay in his little cage all alone in his merky darkness. Before, he enjoyed being out and spending time with me, to be petted and loved on, but, it's been too long ago. That's why I want to work with him. He's blind and has probably totally forgotten who we are, he's probably gets scared to death not knowing what we are and what we are going to do with him. I think I'm going to start with him in his cage, in his familiar surroundings. I want him to get used to me, to learn to trust me and to know who I am. 



Pidgey said:


> Well, I discovered last night that Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) can be used as a sedative at 2-4 mg/kg, BID. I've got a 25 milligram pill dissolving in a cup right beside me to see how it does--it's looking like it tends to sediment out similar to how Metronidazole (Flagyl) does. Therefore, you'd need to do it the same way--dissolve it the best you can and shake the fool out of it before you draw a sample. Popeye would need about 1/100th of an actual 25 milligram pill so you could try diluting it in 100 milliliters of water and then drawing up a 1 milliliter dose to put down the crop.
> 
> Give that a shot and we'll see if that helps with the DDx (Differential Diagnoses). We also should start getting the Kaytee in the bird or at least some vitamin supplements in the water (don't overdo it, though). There are deficiencies that can cause abnormal head movements and other neurological signs, Vitamin E, Selenium and Thiamine, to name a few.
> 
> Pidgey


 Thank you, Pidgey! I will try it but it won't be until Sunday because we don't have school on Fridays this year. Thank you so much!

Lichita

*http://video.google.com/videoupload...957536641464&filename=wsb64__UG9wZWxsZXYy.mpg*


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## Pidgey

I'll try to come up with a suspension this weekend, probably one with sugar added so that it won't sediment out so easily. That might help. We won't want to give it to him all the time, you know--just enough to ease the anxiety of the outings.

I did watch the video and the one shows him moving his head trying to locate sounds. For him, a "dark" world is one that's too quiet. That's why I got Unie a radio--it helps her know where her world is or where she is with respect to it. They also like consistency in their world of sound--that helps as well. I expect that it's a big difference now that school has started again. Familiarity is a good thing. As to the thrashing in the other video, that really could be more like an anxiety attack than a seizure. In true seizures, the body tends to lock up more. If the seizure occurs in a different part of the brain, then some other process tends to lock up like the "petit mal" seizures where people appear to freeze and stare vacantly into space for awhile.

So, what you're looking to create with this medication is a state of sedation mixed with petting and speaking so that he eases into the understanding that everything's not so bad, after all. Hopefully, you'll be able to decrease the drug while increasing the interaction. Patience will be heavily required as this is probably going to take weeks (if the theory's right).

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I will do my very best for him and I'll get him a radio. Thank you so much, Pidgey. 

Licha


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## Feather

Best wishes for the best possible outcome.

Alice, Pidgey, and Terry,

You guys are wonderful. If you three post together too much, I will dehydrate.

Licha, You are one heck of a young lady. We all love you, and want the best for Popeye. I hope that you don't ever feel like you are going through this alone.

Feather


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## Birdmom4ever

It did appear from the second video that Popeye was trying hard to figure out where sounds were coming from and what was happening around him. It must be terribly difficult to be a blind dove. Birds are highly visual, as are we. Poor little lamb.


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## Pidgey

Okay, Licha,

Crush a 25 milligram Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) tablet or empty a capsule (whichever kind you get) in some kind of measuring cup that has a 100 milliliter line. Make sure that you grind it pretty doggone fine. Put two level tablespoons of granulated sugar in and then add water up to the 100 milliliter line. Stir until the sugar's dissolved (it might not all dissolve, by the way) and put it in a bottle with a good cap. You can store it in the fridge and give him one milliliter per dose. It's the very first thing you want to do when you get there because it's going to take some time to take effect. The effect will probably last awhile so it'll be best if you can do it the first time when you're going to be there for a few hours.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Alice, we use a cheap mortar and pestle to crush tablets really fine. I think we got it at World Market for about $3. 

Pidgey - a question or two - could she totally dissolve the sugar in a small amount of very hot water, let it cool and then pour that into the container with the regular water to make up the 100 ml? Also, how long a period of time can she keep the medicine she makes up?

Alice, you are a sweetheart and you know we are all pulling for Popeye.


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## Pidgey

About the medicine, I don't know. Does sugar water go bad if you keep it refrigerated? I think I'd throw it out after a week. In the stuff about using sugar water for floating coccidial oocysts and worm eggs, they tell you to only keep it for a short time but I honestly don't remember why.

As far as using hot water to help dissolve sugar, sure, that's fine, it's certainly easier to get sugar dissolved but I didn't have much trouble with tap water. At this amount of sugar, though, you may not get it all dissolved in any less amount of water because we're very near saturation.

Incidentally, I tried two half-doses (the second an hour or two later) out on YoYo and it doesn't have a huge effect. The actual formulary says 2 to 4 milligrams per kilogram, BID, and I'd given him about 0.25 milligrams but he's also twice the weight of Popeye so I should actually give him twice that just to get it to the 2 mg/kg level. I'll try it at that level tomorrow and then we'll go for the full level.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

At the actual 2 mg/kg dose, he didn't seem terribly affected--maybe a tad more sleepy but he could still fly outside okay in his little bursts. It's hard to say whether he was more "sedate" because he doesn't have any kind of anxiety attacks. So, Licha's just going to have to play with the dose with Popeye and see how it goes.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

*POPEYE COOED!!!!!!!*

LOL -And I got the _Y?_ look.  "Ya! Te emocionas. Tiene como un mes; canta cada dia." Agh! Well _I'd_ certainly never heard him before! Only in my wildest dreams did I ever think he'd coo!

Licha


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## Pidgey

Well, now, there's the coo and the rookoo, too, so which did he do, and to who?

Pidgey


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## Feather

Alice,

Bless his little heart. Did someone tell you that he has been singing for a month? I hope that you can find out what is wrong with him.

Feather


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Well, now, there's the coo and the rookoo, too, so which did he do, and to who?
> 
> Pidgey


 Well, I dunno about that. Dumpty only coos one coo and laughs (they aren't like you, Pidgey). Popeye's coo was a variation of Dumpty's ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...09094723840307 ).
I guess he cooed to himself, he was in his cage all alone. 
Feather, yes, Gloria's brother, Endi, said that he's been cooing everyday for nearly a month now.

Licha


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## Pidgey

Sure would be nice if you could figure out for certain whether he's a he or really a she and get him or her a suitable mate. They can live be quite happy that way. While Unie's never demonstrated any desire to have a mate, many other blind birds have and do. It's just something to try.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I went over Monday to get the medicine but they didn't have it. I was going to try Benavidas but when I knew I'd have time that day I tried to get on PT for the info again and the site was closed down. I never got it but I don't think that I will because even on Monday I saw Popeye responding to me. 
I've spent time with him everyday and he is already used to me. He knows my hand and my voice and he even lets me pet him now. Yesterday we went as far as to venture outside for some sun. He was perfectly fine on my hand but as soon as I set him on the ground he got a terrible look and had an attack. It's the same everywhere, the piano, the desk. He can feel my hand on his feet and trusts it but nothing else except his rock in his cage. But he's doing well, very well, my hand also used to be unfamiliar and a cause of an attack. He's sweet and you can tell he enjoys being out. No one else can pet him, though, because it scares him and he starts to get an attack. I don't understand the difference between me petting him and others but Popeye seems to think there is a difference... for now... 
He's coming along...

Licha


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## Pidgey

Well, then it really is looking more like an anxiety issue and baby steps. Maybe you can just take it a little at a time and return him to his earlier confidence.

Pidgey


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## Feather

You are sweet too Licha! I'm glad that Popeye has found comfort in your touch and on your hand. I'm just glad he found you.

Feather


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## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye cooed again today!!!! His coo isn't like Dumpty's, though. Dumpty goes down and Popeye goes up from a C# to an Eb. 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996

*`````Popeye's Coo`````*

Here ya go


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## Pidgey

Forte, Mezzo-forte, Piano, Pianissimo... or what?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Allegro mf


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## Pidgey

Well, that sounds energetic and full of life, then, doesn't it? That's good.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

I can't make it the same as his coo, though, he's got his little special things and slides that are something more like 1/4 steps instead of 1/2 steps. I shoulda put... dolce... espressivo... above it. 
Popeye's coo is a lot less complicated than Dumpty's, after Dumpty sings his first note he goes down and then works his way up using a lot more notes.


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## JoyfulSongTree

Hi Licha, that's just wonderful! I got a kick out of your noting the exact notes, too. 
I think Dumpty is a Domestic Ringneck (Streptopelia risoria) ? Since Popeye's an Eurasian Collared Dove ( Streptopelia decaocto ) their coos would be different. The links below have vocalizations of each of those species.

Eurasians http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/SeedSpecies/EurasianCollared.htm
(Scroll to the red button) 

Domestics http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/ringneckcalls.htm


Carol


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## AZfiddler_1996

Do they coo another coo? Because Popeye's coo doesn't sound like that????

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996

JoyfulSongTree said:


> Hi Licha, that's just wonderful! I got a kick out of your noting the exact notes, too.
> *I think Dumpty is a Domestic Ringneck (Streptopelia risoria) ? * Since Popeye's an Eurasian Collared Dove ( Streptopelia decaocto ) their coos would be different. The links below have vocalizations of each of those species.
> 
> Eurasians http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/SeedSpecies/EurasianCollared.htm
> (Scroll to the red button)
> 
> Domestics *http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/ringneckcalls.htm*
> 
> 
> Carol


 Yes, he is. And that is just what he sounds like. 

Licha


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## Pidgey

Well, obviously Popeye's not Eurasian--he's Mexican. Therefore, his "coo" is bound to be a little different as a cultural thing. It's actually more of a "La Coo-coo-racha!"

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

lol That explains it.


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## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> Well, obviously Popeye's not Eurasian--he's Mexican. Therefore, his "coo" is bound to be a little different as a cultural thing. It's actually more of a "La Coo-coo-racha!"
> 
> Pidgey


I see that Pidgey is back to having some p(f)un!


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## JoyfulSongTree

...maybe Popeye only speaks "pidgin"


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## JoyfulSongTree

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Do they coo another coo? Because Popeye's coo doesn't sound like that????
> 
> Licha


Here's a link to another ECD's coo, there's not as much variation in this dove's coo as in the other's
http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/c/collareddove/gallery.asp

Popeye doesn't sound like that at all? 
To answer your question without answering it, I really don't know if ECD's have any other vocalizations aside from this type of coo and their excitement call. I've not read of there being another, but, except for these files, I've never heard ( or seen ) an ECD in person myself. 
I do know from my domestic doves that there are quite a number of variations in and between their individual voices. Mine don't sound exactly like the recordings of other ringnecks, they certainly don't sound like each other (I can always tell without looking which one is cooing or laughing), and their own voices don't always sound the same themselves.

If the number of syllables and where they're stressed are generally the same as in those recordings, my wild quess would be that being still young, Popeye maybe just needs time to hone a true coo.

...or... like Pidgey said...


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## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye in his cage about to fall asleep.


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## Feather

Love That Bird! Good Night little sleepy head! Who is his feather dresser? He is going to start a new fad. Why I'm wearing my hair like that now!

Feather


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## Maggie-NC

I just want to pick him up and kiss him.


----------



## TAWhatley

Yes, Popeye .. you are simply one of the bestest birds on Pigeon-Talk .. and your caretaker is to be commended for all she has done to see that you got well, are well cared for, and well loved.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Terry, yes, Unie is one in a million. I pretty much gave up any hope for Popeye to fly because there is no way that he could fly with his constant head jerking (I got a video of that as well and I'm uploading it now). I only want Popeye to enjoy life. I don't want him to stay in his little cage all alone in his merky darkness.* Before, he enjoyed being out and spending time with me, to be petted and loved on, but, it's been too long ago.* That's why I want to work with him. He's blind and has probably totally forgotten who we are, he's probably gets scared to death not knowing what we are and what we are going to do with him. I think I'm going to start with him in his cage, in his familiar surroundings. *I want him to get used to me, to learn to trust me and to know who I am. *
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, Pidgey! I will try it but it won't be until Sunday because we don't have school on Fridays this year. Thank you so much!
> 
> Lichita
> 
> *http://video.google.com/videoupload...957536641464&filename=wsb64__UG9wZWxsZXYy.mpg*


 Popeye is changing fast. He used to have an attack whenever someone would pet him. Now he's gotten to where he has fun riding on my hand while I play piano.

I love you, my little Popeye...

*http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2329822154391392079*

Alice


----------



## Birdmom4ever

What a sweet video! It appears he really enjoys your gentle scratching and preening of his head and feels secure with your hands around him.


----------



## Ryiinn

Wow! What an amazing story! Alice, what you did with Popeye is so inspirational


----------



## Lin Hansen

Alice, it sure looks like Popeye loves his lovin'.

Thanks for the sweet video.

Linda


----------



## Feather

It is plain to see that he loves your touch. I'm glad to hear that he is getting better Alice. You are one in a million!

Feather


----------



## pigeonkid1046

Amazing!! I'm just in awe. What a great story. I'm so happy for you both. Your great.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Birdmom4ever said:


> What a sweet video! It appears he really enjoys your gentle scratching and preening of his head and feels secure with your hands around him.


 Yes, Cathy(and Ryiinn, Linda, Feather, and Tim  ), Popeye seems very contented to have something else to do beside sitting in his cage. I take him outside (though it scares me like crazy! He has his flight feathers back now) to get sun about 15 mins a day and he enjoys it. Mexico is noisy most of the time (they share it with us, too, during festival times- their music is heard 17 blocks away as if a radio is on full blast in our back yard until 4am  ) with just being busy, the loud music at stores, the people paid to drive cars around town advirtising stuff, the gas... I mean propane... trucks driving around singing "Here comes the gas! Here comes the gas!" It gets pretty crazy at times and it's interesting to watch Popeye try to figure it all out. Poor little Popeye!

Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

JoyfulSongTree said:


> Here's a link to another ECD's coo, there's not as much variation in this dove's coo as in the other's
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/c/collareddove/gallery.asp
> 
> *Popeye doesn't sound like that at all? *
> To answer your question without answering it, I really don't know if ECD's have any other vocalizations aside from this type of coo and their excitement call. I've not read of there being another, but, except for these files, I've never heard ( or seen ) an ECD in person myself.
> I do know from my domestic doves that there are quite a number of variations in and between their individual voices. Mine don't sound exactly like the recordings of other ringnecks, they certainly don't sound like each other (I can always tell without looking which one is cooing or laughing), and their own voices don't always sound the same themselves.
> 
> If the number of syllables and where they're stressed are generally the same as in those recordings, my wild quess would be that being still young, Popeye maybe just needs time to hone a true coo.
> 
> ...or... like Pidgey said...


 No, he doesn't, Carol. 

Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Some pics I took today...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

================


----------



## mr squeaks

Such DELIGHTFUL pictures, Licha! The girls are just as cute as can be...

...and Popeye, well, he's a doll baby!


----------



## TAWhatley

Great pictures, Alice! Popeye sure seems to have a way with the young ladies  

Terry


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Hi Alice. Those are great photos and your video is so sweet. Popeye sure makes a lot of people smile, including me! 

I just saw your reply and I'm so sorry if I insinuated Popeye _should _sound like the ECDs in those audio files. It reminds me of when I listened to a Zebra dove coo that was recorded somewhere in south east Asia and I was really thrown for a loop because it sounded nothing like the Zebra doves I knew from my neighborhood in Hawaii. I kept wondering what the mistake or the matter was. I found out later that they just don't have the same coos. So Pidgey may really have been on to something ... and the important thing is that your unique little Mexicano Eurasianisimo is content enough to be cooing. I'm so glad that he is and does, and I hope you always have joy in the sound of it.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

************


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Look at those beautiful wings! His feather condition looks really, really good. Love the picture. It looks like he's clapping with the music. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Maggie-NC

A picture really is worth a thousand words!

Alice, that is the cutest picture you have ever posted of Popeye.


----------



## Rooster2312

Awwh Bless him! Great photo, he looks so happy!! I hadn't read this thread before now and I wish I had read this much sooner! Still got loads of pages to catch up on, but wanted to say thank you and well done for all you have done for this lovely dove. I really enjoyed the video of him getting head and neck tickles.

Lindi


----------



## TAWhatley

Popeye is looking so very good, Alice! I'm so happy for him and for you too!

Terry


----------



## Lin Hansen

Alice, thanks for the latest photo of Popeye!

He looks fantastic!

Bravo!

Linda


----------



## mr squeaks

That is sure one terrific photo, Alice! Beautifully done!

Give him scritches for me!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Here are a couple more pictures of Popeye. The first one is of Popeye's setup and the 2nd one was taken today. 

Licha


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

My poor little Popeye.... what a difference!

Licha


----------



## Pidgey

Folks,

I want to point out that Popeye gets up on that perching bar all on his own, and totally blind for those of you who don't know this bird. What a long road it's been and only seven and a half months long so far!

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Ohhh, yes, it's been a long road.....


----------



## Birdmom4ever

It's truly amazing how far Popeye has come. To be honest, I didn't expect him to survive when you first posted. I love his little apartment--it looks quite cozy and I'm sure he knows where everything is.


----------



## Reti

How wonderful. I am so happy for sweet little Popeye. he is a lucky guy and I am sure he knows it.
Lich you have done a fantastic job with this baby.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

*Popeye's Picture Page Has Been Updated*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

Five pics added at the end. Popeye is looking so very, very good.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Terry, we'll get it filled in sooner or later.  

Alice


----------



## TerriB

What a tremendous journey! Popeye has made an amazing recovery. Well done, Licha!


----------



## feralpigeon

You've done an outstanding job, Licha, one that Popeye will always love
you for. He's a very fortunate boy to have found you.

fp


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Yes, I am very privileged to be able to take care of him. 
...hopefully some day soon he will be able to come home.

Alice


----------



## mr squeaks

A wonderful story of courage, determination and perserverance!

To Licha and all others who helped and are helping Popeye - WELL DONE!

May he continue to be loved and live a long, happy life!


----------



## Feather

mr squeaks said:


> A wonderful story of courage, determination and perserverance!
> 
> To Licha and all others who helped and are helping Popeye - WELL DONE!
> 
> May he continue to be loved and live a long, happy life!


Shi, thank you for expressing my feelings as well. 

Licha, You are amazing, and we love you.

Feather


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Birdmom4ever said:


> It's truly amazing how far Popeye has come. *To be honest, I didn't expect him to survive when you first posted.* I love his little apartment--it looks quite cozy and I'm sure he knows where everything is.


 Well, Cathy, thank you for not adding your harmony to the chorus back then.  I don't know how many times I heard, "He's not going to live." ... I never replied that he would, though. 

Licha


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Well, I figured I should post a picture of Popeye today since today was the first time I'd seen him since last year. 

Licha

My dearest Popeye with Gloria:


----------



## TAWhatley

Thanks for the Popeye pic, Alice. I've missed seeing him, and he's looking very good!

Terry


----------



## Feather

Happy New Year, Popeye, Happy New Year!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Licha, 

Popeye does look very good, you did so well with him and it was a long road. Thanks for the new picture, just wonderful


----------



## Skyeking

Thanks for sharing the pic, Licha. Popeye is so adorable!


----------



## Maggie-NC

I just love Popeye. Thanks, Alice.


----------



## Lovebirds

What a sweetie...............he looks very happy............


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Yes, what a sweetie!!!
Thanks for the new pic 
Popeye looks happy  
Carol


----------



## Birdmom4ever

It warms my heart to see Popeye looking so good. Happy new year!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I'm glad y'all liked the picture. Popeye is sure a sweetie.
Anyhow, I just wanted to let you all know (since you're my Popeye's closest family!) that Popeye bathed today for the very first time!


----------



## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I'm glad y'all liked the picture. Popeye is sure a sweetie.
> Anyhow, I just wanted to let you all know (since you're my Popeye's closest family!) that Popeye bathed today for the very first time!


Whoa! Popeye musta been gettin' to be a pretty stinky dove  You know I'm kidding! How wonderful that Popeye is doing so well and now enjoying bath time of all things!

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

You could tell us how he enjoyed it and what he did, you know.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, was I supposed to do that part too?  
Well, I got there just afterward (he'd already moved over to sit on his food bowl) and the first thing that I noticed was water splashed all over his papers and I said, ""Papelito?!?!?!" I scooped him up and sure enough, he had had a bath! I was so happy and messed his job up before I caught myself by getting carmex on him again. "Again" as in he-already-has-those-marks-all-over-him-from-me-forgetting-before-it's-too-late. Now that he's taking baths, maybe they'll be all gone before one of you drops in on me.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Licha, 

Congratulations to Popeye and his first bath, I'm sure he really enjoyed getting all wet and clean


----------



## Reti

How cute. I am so glad he enjoys his life, sweet Popeye.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks

WAY TO GO, POPEYE!! You show 'em...YOU DA DOVE!!

LOADS OF HUGS and SCRITCHES TO YOU!


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

What a thrilling indication of confidence  Hooray for you and Popeye!
Best wishes
Carol


----------



## Pidgey

Reti said:


> How cute. I am so glad he enjoys his life, sweet Popeye.
> 
> Reti


Interesting post number, there, Reti. Didn't realize who you really were...

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Little Popeye's head looks like a cactus again.  I've never had any other bird look that way when they're getting their new feathers in, but Popeye sure does. His pinfeathers on the top of his head stick straight up and he gets all of the rest of the feathers on his head in at the same time so he look like a cactus. I call him my little Cactus Wren. I wish I could have taken a picture for you this time, but I guess you'll have to wait until next molt.

Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Bad feather day, huh? Poor little guy... you didn't tell HIM that he looked bad, didja'?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, he doesn't look like he's having a bad feather day. He looks like a _cactus_. He's absolutely cute and I tell him so. 

Alice


----------



## Larry_Cologne

*Looking good, Popeye!*

Finger hugs to Popeye, the stand-in cactus model, and thanks to all his wardrobe attenders and make-up artists and camera team. This was a great production. 

This is so wonderful.

Larry


----------



## TAWhatley

*Updated Popeye Pics ..*

http://www.rims.net/AliceDove

There are six new ones at the end.

Terry


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

Haha, love his conducting  
He kinda reminds me of Einstein in the first of the new pics -- smart birdie  
Best wishes
Carol


----------



## Maggie-NC

Alice, Popeye looks wonderful. The children are taking such good care of him. It is an amazing story told through the pictures Terry has posted for you. We all love Popeye.


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Yes, we do! I loved seeing new pictures of him. His story is so amazing. It's been almost a year now, hasn't it?


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you all.  

Carol, I sent that picture because mama liked it so much. I think he looks mad... Einstein is a good description.  He's awful cute in that picture. It's so sad and funny at the same time that his eyes are so sunk in that you can't even see them from the front.

By the way, the first four pictures of the last six were taken a couple of days ago. 

Thank you, Terry, for putting them up for me.

Yes... April 5th! We celebrated his birthday last Thursday night. I guess for me it is very bitter-sweet.

Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

The 2nd of the four new pictures is my favorite of the new ones.  

Alice


----------



## mr squeaks

Been a LONG haul there, Alice!

So glad to see Popeye doing so well! Loved the Giddyup pic!

Love, Hugs and Scritches to Popeye!!


----------



## JoyfulSongTree

*Happy Birday Popeye !!!*

Aw, Happy Birday Popeye *!!!* 
And many more  you're the best


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> * Some boys at school brought me a dove that they found outside and it's head is- it looks like it's been peeled off with a potato peeler. It is a shiny, thick black with no feathers and when I first got it its eyes were terrible with green stuff but they aren't anymore.
> A big problem is that I go to school in Mexico and cannot cross the dove to AZ to bring it home. I brought it in the building and put it in a cardboard box with a lamp for heat and I warmed up some water and it drank heartily which is good. The dove was not cold.
> I have pictures but cannot post them because I don't know how to resize them but if anyone wants, I can e-mail them and they can post them for me.
> I don't go back to Mex until tomorrow so I did what I knew to do and hope for the best.
> Please give me advice on what to do tomorrow!! Thank you so much.
> -Alice
> *
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> *Happy Birthday, precious little Papelito!
> Sugar Cakes, when I see you later today I will tell you everything that I feel right now...
> 
> I love you, Popeye, I love you.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *


 *Exactly one year to the day! Happy Birthday, Popeye!*


----------



## mamalala

*So glad to meet you all*

I've been reading all these messages from people who actually have the kindness in them to take care of these injured animals. I'm so sorry about this injured pigeon. The pictures have left me in tears, but I'm also relieved because before this, I hadn't found anyone who cared about these animals.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Alice, give Popeye a big kiss from me and wish him a very happy birthday.

Mamalala, several members have blind birds that manage very well. Here are links to some of our more famous.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10825

The next link will take you to a live cam showing "Izzy" who belongs to our member Monica.

http://appliedfantasy.net/izze_cam/izze.html


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

> Aw, Happy Birday Popeye !!!
> And many more you're the best


 Thank you! I was sure to tell him last night. 


> Alice, give Popeye a big kiss from me and wish him a very happy birthday.


 I will! 


Mamalala, these might be of interest to you as well:

*Mr. Squeaks: A Pigeon's Tale or How to Live with Fur and Feathers PART I

Mr. Squeaks: A Pigeon's Tale or How to Live with Fur and Feathers PART II*

Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye's been poisoned. I found out this morning that the bugs had been poisoned at the church. I ran to check on Popeye and just as I thought, Popeye got his dose as well. His poops were slimey, green, and only little drops. He had pooped in his water and it was green and had an oily top--not like their bath water. He acts fine otherwise, but I didn't have time to really observe him...


----------



## Maggie-NC

Alice, any idea just how much exposure he got? Or, what type of poison? What are you planning to do? Hopefully, Ron will be on soon and can give you more info on poison cases.

You know we will be remembering our boy in our prayers.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

*Prayers for Popeye*

Besides prayers for Popeye, and you know they're going up big time, get some Activated charcoal ASAP. If the poops are already oily and icky it's in his system and the best thing to do is supportive care. 
Get your hands on some activated charcoal. 


I'd treat just like you'd do for a human poisoning case. Clean out his crop and stomach as best you can, if there is anything left, and then supportive care. Ron or Pidgey (anyway somebody with LOTS of experience) suggested cutting the crop open with a small incision to clear it out manually (an Avitrol poisioning case that came up not too long ago). They said it would be easier to repair a small crop incision than to hope you got it out some other ways. FP and Phil may also have some good advice. 

If possible, like Maggie suggests find out what was put out for the bugs. That can help.

You know we're with you and Popeye.


----------



## Birdmom4ever

This is heartbreaking, especially after all he's been through! My prayers for Popeye.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

*Poisoning thread*

Alice 
Here's the thread I was thinking about. Phil found a poisoned bird 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20979&highlight=avitrol
It was Pidgey that suggested cutting into the crop to try and save the bird.

Even though the thread was about Avitrol poisoning, the information is pertinent. Most poisons are hydrocarbon-based, at least the ones that the general public uses, and the treatments are the same.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, you'd only do something like that with a bunch of Avitrol-laced corn in the crop. This sounds more like a bug-bomb or spray. Charcoal, yes. I'd give that some time and then I'd tube-feed him regular food to get stuff going back through him though. If it was insect poison then it should be in the cholinesterase inhibitor family of poisons.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

If that's the case, then atropine (belladonna) would be the antidote but it has its own dangers. It'd take a good vet to prescribe it and it's possible that the worst of it has passed if Popeye is acting somewhat normal.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Alice,

Sorry to hear this news about Popeye, I was out all day, but I see FNZ and Pidgey have pretty well covered what I would have replied with. However, if you have no charcoal, in a pinch you can use conventional clay kitty litter (not any of the fancy clumping or other kinds, the cheap stuff) as a poison antidote. Dissolve some of the clay pellets into water to form a slurry and administer.

I as well will say a prayer for Popeye, part of it will be that he did not get a large dose of the poison.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I am going over there today and will let you know what I find out. I need to know how much charcoal to give him.


----------



## Reti

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I am going over there today and will let you know what I find out. I need to know how much charcoal to give him.



I don't think there is a point in giving charcoal now, too much time has elapsed.
Supportive care is all he needs now.
Best of luck and let us know.

Reti


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye was doing a little better yesterday. He hadn't pooped since I left him about 5:30pm on Sunday until I got there yesterday morning. It actually had solids in it (they had none on Sunday), but also had bubbles. 
The poison was powder, but I'm not sure what kind. I'm going to try to find that out today. Jorge put it out and left for Zacatecas on Saturday so I can't ask him if he put it around Popeye. The only place that I actually_ saw_ the poison was in the bathroom. 
I'm going back over there today. I hope Popeye is better...

Licha


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Well, we'll hope that it's not too toxic for birds. 

It's a powder so we can hope it's diatomaceous earth. If you can get a scraping and put it under a microscope or even a handlens, you can tell if it's diatomaceous earth or if it is something chemical in nature. If you see beautiful little glass cell walls that's diatomaceous earth. Those are the diatoms' " skeletons" . We would LOVE to hear that.

Is there anyway you can bring Popeye back with you? He'll need time to recover with someone watching him fairly closely. While he's down, he's so vunerable to opportunistic organisms and stress.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Mary, Alice probably won't be on again until tonight or tomorrow but thought I'd tell you that Popeye's location is one of the problems. He is in Mexico and she lives in AZ - at the border, from what I understand. Alice's friends in Mexico have been taking care of Popeye. Go to the first page of this thread and you'll read about Alice's dilemma.

Terry has worked diligently trying to get permission for him to cross the border but no results so far.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

I'd read through some of the thread, but obviously missed the part where she couldn't be with Popeye. I thought that might be the problem  because I know how much she treasures that little bird. As long as she has someone that can be with Popeye and help with the care and worrying -- WHEW!! 

The fact that he's still alive gives me great hope. Tough little bird.


----------



## TAWhatley

I really hope Popeye is OK. He is one very, very special bird. 

Terry


----------



## xxmoxiexx

wow! this has been an ordeal. what a little trooper Popeye is though! i wish you the best of luck with everything. we'd love to see a pic after he pulls through this!
Pidgey, Belladonna as in the belladonna flower that grows and all the hippies eat it to trip off of? or at least, when i lived in san fran it grew all over the place and when it grew things would get very interesting on Haight street and golden gate park area!! it was like a free play or something! is that the same belladonna you are talking about, and what does it do for a pigeon?


----------



## Pidgey

Belladonna is where we get Atropine, which is the immediate antidote for a lot of anti-cholinergic poisons. You can get the stuff in health food stores but I don't know if the active ingredient is completely removed or not. It's one of those things that I'd defer to someone who's more into natural cures. That was originally a snapshot guess based on the possibility of a direct-poison ingestion (or inhalation) and the guess that it was bug-poison. In fact, it was just bug poison powder put down in places in the church with no concrete knowledge of the type, strength or anything. It's likely that it was of a type to put off something of a fume, but not so deadly to small animals.

Pidgey


----------



## Matt D.

Wow 47 pages 702 posts is this a record? I know this is random and off topic but IS IT?


----------



## Pidgey

There's been a LOT of work put into this little dove. Go back and read the whole thing.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Popeye does seem to be getting a little better each day. He is eating and drinking on his own. His poops are a lot closer to normal now, but they are still very dark green and a little on the watery side. They are solid, though, making a little ball with a small puddle of water around them. 

Licha


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

xxmoxiexx said:


> wow! this has been an ordeal. what a little trooper Popeye is though! i wish you the best of luck with everything. we'd love to see a pic after he pulls through this!


 Raina, I will take a picture of him for you soon. 

Licha


----------



## TAWhatley

Matt D. said:


> Wow 47 pages 702 posts is this a record? I know this is random and off topic but IS IT?


Well, if it isn't the record holder, it's gotta be close .. For our newer members, here are a whole
lot of pictures of Popeye and his caretakers .. pretty amazing: http://www.rims.net/AliceDove/

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I think there's a more recent picture of Popeye on here somewhere...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Here it is:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=172716&postcount=652


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Pidgey said:


> Belladonna is where we get Atropine, which is the immediate antidote for a lot of anti-cholinergic poisons. You can get the stuff in health food stores but I don't know if the active ingredient is completely removed or not. It's one of those things that I'd defer to someone who's more into natural cures. That was originally a snapshot guess based on the possibility of a direct-poison ingestion (or inhalation) and the guess that it was bug-poison. In fact, it was just bug poison powder put down in places in the church with no concrete knowledge of the type, strength or anything. It's likely that it was of a type to put off something of a fume, but not so deadly to small animals.
> 
> Pidgey


I never knew until you posted that Atropine came from Belladonna. We had a lost roller four years ago (the story is probably still in the archives somewhere) that somehow ingested organophosphates while he was out. A wonderful vet pulled him through with Atropine. But I've no idea how much she gave him. I just know it was a lot--multiple treatments per day over many days. He was with her for a week. 

He was near death when some people found him in their back yard and called me. The vet estimated he'd had the poison in his system for at least three days. He made a full and complete recovery and is still with us today, happily married to his mom. (Should have named him Oedipus instead of Jacques!)


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I just wanted to drop a note to say that Popeye is all better now. And if I ever remember to take my camera...


----------



## TAWhatley

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I just wanted to drop a note to say that Popeye is all better now. And if I ever remember to take my camera...


That's wonderful news, Alice! Thanks for the happy update!

Terry


----------



## Lovebirds

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> I just wanted to drop a note to say that Popeye is all better now. And if I ever remember to take my camera...


YIPPEE!!! Way to go Popeye!!


----------



## mr squeaks

Popeye can now add "POISON SURVIVOR" to his resume! 

WHAT A BIRD! WAY TO GO, POPEYE!!

LOVE HUGS & SCRITCHES

Shi & Mr. Squeaks


----------



## Reti

What a relief. Thank you for the wonderful update.

Reti


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Yes indeed, what a relief! Thank God he's okay. That is one amazing bird. Thank you so much for the update.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

mr squeaks said:


> Popeye can now add "POISON SURVIVOR" to his resume!


 I wish he didn't have to, but at least the "survivor" part is included in the title!

Thank you all for the well wishes.  

Licha


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

*Today, Popeye is 2 years old, fatter, sweeter, cuter, and a more avid singer than he ever was! 

Happy Birthday my little Popeye!!! *


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## Lovebirds

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> *Today, Popeye is 2 years old, fatter, sweeter, cuter, and a more avid singer than he ever was!
> 
> Happy Birthday my little Popeye!!! *



Gosh, that must have taken forever to make ever letter a different color.  
HAPPY BIRTHDAY POPEYE.........MAY YOU HAVE MANY MANY MANY MORE!!


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## Reti

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SWEET POPEYE

Reti


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## Pidgey

HAPPY BIRD-THDAY, POPEYE!!!

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever

Happy Birthday, Popeye!!  Still just amazes me that he survived what he did. And now he's two--wonderful!


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## Victor

A grand birthday to you Popeye and a great day to your caretaker as well!


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## TAWhatley

Happy, Happy Birthday, Popeye! You know we all love you and your caretakers! How about some birthday pictures?

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SWEET POPEYE


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## mr squeaks

*Squeaks and I send BIRTHDAY GREETINGS TOO!!*

LOVE, HUGS AND SCRITCHES, POPEYE!!

_Shi & Squeaks_


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## Popeye

thank you!!!!! 
happy birthday to me! happy birdday to me! happy birthcake and safflo- oh, wait...

poppy


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## KIPPY

*Happy Birthday Popeye!*

AZfiddler_1996,
Sad situation for what Popeye has been through but what a happy ending and you are a great individual. I admire you for your devotion to helping Popeye.



> *How about some birthday pictures?*


Ditto that....


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## AZfiddler_1996

I can probably get some this week.  

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996

Here are some pictures of Popeye that I took yesterday.


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## Birdmom4ever

He's looking good, Alice. Thank you for sharing. How are things going for him? I assume he's still in Mexico? Or were you ever able to bring him in to the U.S.?


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## Maggie-NC

Oh Alice, Popeye looks grand!!!!!! What a wonderful little bird. You and his caretakers are continuing to take such good care of him.


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## TAWhatley

How wonderful to see Popeye again! I'm thrilled he is still going strong and doing so well! Many thanks to you and Popeye's caretakers for giving him such love and care!

Terry


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## Reti

He looks wonderful. What a sweet bird. 

Reti


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## mr squeaks

HI POPEYE!! YOU ARE REALLY LOOKIN' GRRRREAT!!

Thanks for posting the positive update for us, Licha!!

Wishing Popeye continued LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES from his fans:

Shi & Squeaks


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