# Stop young birds at 200 miles?



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I would like to get some opinions, on a proposal that has been put forth in my combine (not by me), that we apparently will be voting on shortly.

The proposal is basicaly being based on the large amount of young birds that are lost every year, expecially recently. The proposal is very long, because it includes a lot of reasons. I will summarize the reasons and the proposal, and then add my own thoughts.

Reasoning: Many young birds are lost in the races, especially in recent years. Some believe it is because of solar flares (K factor), climate change (global warming), cell phone towers, micro-wave emmisions, an abundance of predator birds, or just plain bad birds.

Now, I can only speculate on solar flares, climate change, micro-wave emmissions and cell phone towers. But I am fairly confident that it is not because of there being too many predator birds. As to the birds being not as good as they "used" to be, I find that hard to believe. Many flyers that have suffered huge losses, have been flying pigeons for decades and they would surely state that their birds are at least as good as what they had years ago. With the obvious exception of those "special" individual birds they tell awesome stories about. I refuse to believe that what I have now, are not as good as what I had in the early 80's. I feed them better, medicate better and train them better now also.

Proposal: That young birds be only raced out to 200 miles. With the exception of futurity races. This "should" result in less birds being lost to almost certain death. It is a humane thing to do for young birds. Flyers would not have to raise so many young birds, therefore saving on feed, transportation costs, etc. It would also give late bloomers a chance to show what they have, the following year when they are yearlings.

Which leads to another part of the proposal. Old Bird racing would be succesive races of 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 and possibly 600 miles. To obtain the desired number of races, we could race maybe two 300 milers and two 400 milers. With a yearling race on the same dates as the older bird races. But the yearling races would start at the 300, and cease at 400 miles. As an example: On the 300 old bird race date. Yearlings would be let out an hour earlier or later than two year old and older birds. Again, this would give "late bloomers" a chance to show their stuff later in life.

"In summary, racing future young bird hopefuls out to 200 miles then stopping, and racing yearling hopefuls out to 400 miles then stopping, will provide the birds with the maximum training to go on to be a successful O.B. racer."

My personal thoughts on this proposal: I like it. Mostly because I hate losing what essential are teenage pigeons. Just like in wars, I think that anyone younger than 21 should not be sent to participate. They just ain't mature enough, in my opinion (not taking anything away from those young men and women that have served or are serving. They are true patriots and heroes in my book). I know from personal experience. I also dislike raising so many birds to have some left for next years old bird races. But my main likings of this proposal is the maturity factor. The loss of young lives factor. Let them race to 200 miles and then, with that under their belt, show what they can do as mature birds.

What say y'all?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Sounds good to me. Good for both "types" of pigeons. Sprinters would accel 100-200. And long distance racers shouldn't be pushed anyway. They take longer to "warm up" and are better raced as old birds. The only people it would really effect are the ones who want long distance YBs.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

We stop at 300 then I wait 10 days or so and haul them out to 375, I would like to get into one loft racing. If you stop at 200 how would you test your birds? Now I understand you can't do that with speed birds, But I like my distance birds the most. I would have to vote no.
Dave


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't particularly care for the idea, but what is the alternative. We race to 300 as well. I vote no if my vote counts.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

We raced this yb season at the Greater Jacksonville Racing Pigeon Club 8 races. Consisting of 2 times at each of the following stations 100 miles, 150 miles, 200 miles & then 300 miles. We had one weekend we postpone the race due to bad weather and another scheduled "bye-week" where our liberator had a doctors appointment. 

I mentioned also about the bird losses during the year and I was reminded that the training basket and the races don't play favorites. Good birds can be shot by dove hunters just as quickly as bad ones. ( Sadly we start our race series at the same time as opening day of Dove hunting season) One thing you can be sure of though is the birds you have at the end of the yb season are more experienced birds. 

Allowing them to complete the yb race series should have them more prepared for old bird season which I believe for us is a 100, 200, 300 & 400 mile series with a special 500 mile money race at the end.
So to answer the question I would have say no because if you don't allow your ybs the chance to have the flying hours in the air soon enough folks will want to shorten the old bird distances as well.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm not sure why such a rule is necessary. If the reasons for the rule are true then why don't the owners of the birds just do the right thing?

This, to me, this is just the powers that be imposing their will on others. Everyone should know their birds. And this rule while on the surface sounds sound, it is in fact not needed. This country was founded because England impose it's will on the colonies. A will, that to them, looked good on paper.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rpalmer said:


> I'm not sure why such a rule is necessary. If the reasons for the rule are true then why don't the owners of the birds just do the right thing?
> 
> This, to me, this is just the powers that be imposing their will on others. Everyone should know their birds. And this rule while on the surface sounds sound, it is in fact not needed. This country was founded because England impose it's will on the colonies. A will, that to them, looked good on paper.


 I agree with your assesment. 

Sounds like parties who are pushing this change are mainly OB fliers who are breeding slow maturing pigeons for the 500 and 600 race events. They most likely have never been really any good in the longer YB races, most likely view the YB events as training tosses, and the "real" races are the longer OB events. So if they can't compete in the YB events, they figure to just simply eliminate them. This way it won't mess them up for the overall YB & OB Champion awards.

I on the other hand, am a YB specialist, breeding specifically for YB events. I want the pigeons I produce to be able to win at the 100 to 400 mile events. So a club or combine which chooses to focus on OB events and has no racing events for YB's over 200 miles would be of no use to me. 

As a side note, our combine had three YB smash races in 2011 in which a lot of pigeons were lost. These three events were weather related, and they were all less then 200 miles.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I'd vote no also. I think that as you progress through the YB season you kind of get a feel for your birds ability and when the 300 comes at the end of the season you probably only send birds you have faith in. Some of the flyers in our club chose not to send any to the 300 but most did so it was an individual choice. I sent birds and lost one but I may have lost the same one at 100.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

That would be a good idea. As here in the USA we fly by the mile. And in europe they do not. So we fly the birds further. As most well known names of the past in europe. Many never raced young birds at all. And raced yearlings out at a shorter distance. Then raced full old birds 3 plus years of age. Out the distance they chose. Growing young birds over raced will become tired Unless rotated right. And some people of the past that raced young birds FOR MONEY did so but never selected from those birds as good breed birds because they felt they had been over raced and not allowed to develop proper enough to become good old birds or breeders. IN the US the young birds are perhaps tested far more harder then other countries. Far as large groups of lost birds. I think some of the selection process has changed. Many birds are bought and sold on the fad of the day in race birds. And we all know Most of those are well Not much good as No great birds can produce so many fine birds birds for the fad of the day. A 200 for young birds would more then test for selection any young bird. BUT with distance birds the 200 would not have many of them winning as they warm up better after the 200. But they are better for those old bird races. You will find pros and cons. PIGEONS are bred for pigeons they are bred for mans needs and wants. The more man wants the more pigeons have to do. Is it right or wrong again man decides.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I tried to post a couple of links to 2 good articles The links did not work. ok 1 was from the racing pigeon digest archives. It went to say about lost birds. in todays races. It covered the idea that with tadays races focusing on speed and midle distance races. People are buying more and more such birds. BUT with those birds And they fly off coarse or spend more time on the wing They grow tierd have less energy to get home and get lost or become an easyer target for a hawk. When in the past yes there were birds lost BUt conditions were because of handling loft management and such. Because the birds today are better taken care of but lost birds are increasing. People should look at they are over flying there birds Like it said a bird that does well on the wing for say 5 hours And ends up off coarse and winds up flying an extra 2 3 hours is tired not able to get on home. Then the other article. It credited the US to having the first 500 mile and longer DAY BIRDs. But agian said that we are over flying our birds. To have better distance birds You must not over work them as young and yearling birds. And goes to say many people do not have birds over 2 years old in there old bird team Because they over worked there birds. It takes time for birds to mature enough to handle those longer races. Or they get wore out. And as in Europe the big races will not even let yearlings compete. What we see is we fly by the mile And our 300 mile races are what some over there would call a long race. Our 500 mile is there furtherest race And not everybody flies that Some would be flying it but it would be like our 350 or 400 miler The shorter flyyers Fly what 65 to less then 200 miles There And it says If they competed with us in the us They would have a greater challenge. Because they would have to breed a better pigeon to race at our distances. And as even in 1 state are you may have birds that get home at the 500 in a day and others that can do a 600 in a day. So birds should be bred and selected for your type of racing. And not over raced. when younger. So buying say speed birds Ones that raced well in europe But the km, equaled only our 200 and less Then the birds was not being selected for that futher distance Then there middle distances Birds would probaly be Our speed type of bird The birds that go the 300 to 500 KM would be our what 200 and 300 mile birds Then hadled right they do good at our longer races as old birds. So Lost birds can be attributed to what we are buying today and pushing there limits to young.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> I'm not sure why such a rule is necessary. If the reasons for the rule are true then why don't the owners of the birds just do the right thing?
> 
> This, to me, this is just the powers that be imposing their will on others. Everyone should know their birds. And this rule while on the surface sounds sound, it is in fact not needed. This country was founded because England impose it's will on the colonies. A will, that to them, looked good on paper.


There are reasons that some want participate in all races. The major reason being that many are in pursuit of the average speed awards. There are other reasons, but that is the main one I think.

After reading the few reponses already posted, I see that (as usual), there are pros and cons on both sides.

I am one of those old bird lovers, and just use the young bird races as training for the old bird races. Pursuing the money usually only asociated with young birds, is not my cup of tea. I dream of the 500 and 600 mile wins.

But I understand that there are those that only go after the money races, and there are those that do not even fly old birds. We have a few in our combine that only fly young birds, and give away most of their young birds after the season is ended, except what they keep for breeding.

Voting is this Sunday, I think (still learning the ropes in this new combine and this will be my first combine meeting with them).


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

When I raced pigeons with my grandpa 20 yrs ago he said to race them to 300 as young birds 400 as yearlings and after that as far as you wanted he felt it was just pushing them after that he was a smart man


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I feel like if you don't want to take them past 200 miles then don't. The whole club shouldn't suffer for a few guys. Theirs a few guys who only shipped 2-4 races in my club, no one says you have ship every race. In my club the guys that do well at the 400-500 mile races did well at the 300s.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I don't feel a 300 is all that far for a young bird who is in good shape. But what do I know I'll ship a bird every week and even twice in the same weekend to races past 200 miles. I had 2 birds this year fly 11 races in 10 weekends the weekend they flew 2 races they flew a 300 on Saturday and then a 250 on Sunday. And 3 of the 11 races they flew were 300's. Then the Champion bird this past OB's was a bird who flew 11 races in 10 weeks last year as a YB. She flew 2 300's in one weekend. I want birds that can fly pretty much every week not birds that you have give a week or 2 off between. Some of the guys in the club tell me I push them too hard. But thats what I want my birds to be able to do so with my selection process that what I have. But if my combine did what your talking about I wouldn't waste my time with YB's for a bunch of short races. Since my best races are the 250's and 300's.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

You can do what Pigeon0446 did ONLY,if the races are VERY FAST....If you have a tuff race,you cannot send the bird 300 miles back to back....Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have pretty much made up my mind how I will vote. I wil vote "No" on the proposal. But I am ashamed to admit that my no vote will be based on personal reasons and not on the welfare of the birds and the sport.

My reasoning is thus: I am on the extreme short end. I am not allowed to fly 100 mile races. If I fly a 350 mile young bird race, it will only be approximately 260 miles for me.

So the most I will fly is 260 miles with young birds.

On a related note. Yesterday, I attended a meeting of my "other" combine, whereupon we voted on various things. One proposal being whether or not to fly the course we did last year, which is from the southwest. That prioposal passed. Another proposal was whether to change our course and fly from the straight south. That proposal also passed. DOH!

Apparently some of us highly intelligent pigeon flying humans, did not understand that we should not vote yes on both proposals.

We are going to have a second vote on those proposals in January, with more explicit instructions (and maybe an instructional video), stating to only vote "yes" for one of them. Not both 

Ain't life funny.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Alamo said:


> You can do what Pigeon0446 did ONLY,if the races are VERY FAST....If you have a tuff race,you cannot send the bird 300 miles back to back....Alamo


They were pretty fast races that's why they were able to do it the bird that was 5th in the 300 on sat then 6th in the 250 on sun did 1727ypm in the 300 then 1633ypm in the 250. But still thats 558 miles in 28 hours for a young bird and coming in the top 6 in both races. I wouldn't ship a bird back if it was a hard race the birds wouldn't stand a chance in the second race. But ppl think a fast race is easy on bird it isn't for a bird to make those speeds even with a tail wind the bird has to push itself all the way home especially to be up there with the leaders. The 300 mile race she was 5th in she was on the drop with 2 of my other birds that came in 3rd and 6th. Then the 250 she was 6th in she was my 3rd bird in the clock.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

That's outstanding for a young bird to do that in one weekend, 2 thumbs up.
Dave


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

conditionfreak said:


> But I am ashamed to admit that my no vote will be based on personal reasons and not on the welfare of the birds and the sport.


This is very close to having someone tell you what and how to feed, medicate and train your birds. And no one wants that. You might say it is even PETA-ish.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I think the birds are fine, I only lost 2 birds past 200 miles anyways.


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

wow. What about us that fly long? When you say 200 mile race how do you determine that? Our 100 is 153 miles for me. I would only get to fly 4 races if 200 based on the race name and not the acutaly miles for each flyer.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Our clubs return results from the long races by clock. 
350 miles 78/103
300 miles 131/159
300 miles 103/170

This does not include late birds that came home. I would look at your club results to see when most of the birds were lost. I think most of our clubs birds were lost in training or on the shorter races. I also think it is the clubs responsibility to educate new fliers on the molt and to not allow certain birds to be shipped to races. I hate when the old timers are loading birds and say "this bird won't make it home", damn well knowing it is a wing issue. In my opinion clubs should develop a policy of at least letting the fancier know his bird is not worthy of the long race and is in bad wing position. Let him decide. I do not think their are enough mentors that help the newbees train correctly. I think if these problems are corrected losses would not be that big of an issue.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Our clubs return results from the long races by clock.
> 350 miles 78/103
> 300 miles 131/159
> 300 miles 103/170
> ...


That is probably a better by-law to add than the distance issue. Come up with a proposal on the wing position...if a bird is missing 2 flights it can't be shipped etc etc depending on what you consider a bad position. It would do more to save the birds than the distance reduction I believe.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The old timers know when a bird has less of a chance to make it home. They just need to share this with the new guys for the good of the birds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Too many birds to check wings and such. Over a thousand. With deadlines for when the truck is arriving, and flyers wanting to get out of there and go home (or whatever they have planned on a Friday night)). Shipping night is a fast and furious effort to get it over with in as little time as possible.

Besides, few want to tell someone else how they should train or when they should fly pigeons. Unless asked. Some people actually send birds to a long race, hoping the bird will not return. It is their method of culling undesirables. We had one guy that sent a bird that was way underwieght, hoping to lose it. It felt very light when I basketed it, I asked "is this pigeon sick?". The reply was "no, for some reason it won't put on weight and I hope it doesn't come back. I hope I never see it again".

It placed 2nd in the club and 20th in the combine. Ha Ha.

The measure was not voted in and only one person was a "yes" for stopping YB's at 200 miles. It is now a dead issue. But we did vote to eliminate the 600 for old birds.  Due to costs.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Too many birds to check wings and such. Over a thousand. With deadlines for when the truck is arriving, and flyers wanting to get out of there and go home (or whatever they have planned on a Friday night)). Shipping night is a fast and furious effort to get it over with in as little time as possible.
> 
> *Besides, few want to tell someone else how they should train or when they should fly pigeons. * Unless asked. Some people actually send birds to a long race, hoping the bird will not return. It is their method of culling undesirables. We had one guy that sent a bird that was way underwieght, hoping to lose it. It felt very light when I basketed it, I asked "is this pigeon sick?". The reply was "no, for some reason it won't put on weight and I hope it doesn't come back. I hope I never see it again".
> 
> ...


Count me as one of those who does not want, nor appreciates, someone telling me how to manage my race team. 

The same little busy bodies that think that some central committee should control and regulate every aspect of a person's life, also show up at Combine meetings from time to time, with the same control and regulate fetish that we see elsewhere in our lives. 

Now what's next, maybe have a committee to study each and every bird to decide if the bird appears fit enough to race ? In this case, it appears the person who thought up the idea of only having races out to 200 miles, was the only one who voted for it. Looks like common sense prevailed. Somewhere along the line, the individual fancier has to take a little personal responsibility as to what is best for his bird's. 

If we hide behind the "What is best for the bird's" then one could simply argue that we should simply cancel all of the races and lock the bird's in the loft. That way they won't hit any wires or fall victim to a hawk attack !


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