# Pigeons In My Pigeon Room



## goulian

Hello fellow Pigeon People,

I have something I want to share with you all, but I am not sure how you will react to it. I have told you in a previous post that I had intended to take a pair of birds from the feral flock I feed each morning and attempt to have them breed in my spare room so that I can have a pet pigeon who has never been actually in the wild. My reasoning for this was that a bird who has tasted freedom would never be completely happy living in the restricted space a room would provide. Even though it would, in time, adapt to the tighter living space, I think the longing for freedom would always be there. That is why I want to have a baby bird raised in the room who has never been free. I do not think he could miss what he never had. 

Anyway, the response I got from you guys and gals was pretty much unanimous in that my idea should not be tried. I understand your reasoning was derived from your concern for the birds. And, because of your recommendations, I tried even more to obtain a pigeon from a breeder, rather than from the wild. I have not been successful, even though several people have tries to help me to locate one. 

I am now going to tell you what I have done, but first I will tell you about the Pigeon Room I have set up. A picture attached to this post shows the room from the entrance. The 1/4 inch screen door is half way open. On the left is a clothes closet. A large piece on plywood is on top of it to allow removal and cleaning of the area. Next to the closet is the cage and on top of the cage is the nest box. As you can see, the cage has a large opening on the front and back. The front opening is for a wooden nest front which is used when I want to confine a bird to the cage. The back opening is currently covered with a screen, but if opened can accommadate the nest box, which will extend out from the cage in order to allow the maximum in-cage space possible. The cage is three feet square and two feet high. When the nest box is attached to the cage, a plywood shelf extends about ten inches into the cage from the top of the box. The small door allows access for cleaning the shelf or getting to the bird. There is a shelf at the front entrance to allow easy access to the cage for the birds. Another shelf is attached to the window sill across from the cage. It seems to be easier for the birds to fly to the entrance if they first fly to the window shelf. Along the top right side of the room, there is a length of pipe which was used by the previous renter of the apartment as a clothes hanging rack. I have wrapped a fine grade sandpaper around this one and a quarter inch pipe to allow a firm grip by the pigeons. There is also a small shelf/perch on the wire door.

Now for the birds themselves. I chose two of the tamest pigeons in the flock. Both came to my hand and were completely comfortable being there. They had been coming to my hand for about five months and had joined the flock about a month before they became so tame. I thought that since the were only about six months old, then probably had not found a mate yet. I did not choose any older birds since they would probably already have picked a mate. I captured the female pigeon (the same brown one I submitted a photo of previously) on 10 December. She adapted to the pigeon room almost immediately. Within two days she was eating from my hand and flying to me whenever I went into the room. If any of you have seem the video of 
"The Dinkster" on YouTube entitled "The Worlds Meanest Pigeon",you can see exactly how my pigeon attacks my "hand monster". She acts exactly like Dinkster does. And like the author said, "If he was afraid, he would fly 
away." I feel the same way. She attacked my hand because she enjoyed it. When I took my hand away, she would run at it to continue the attack. Of course, when I got some food for her, the attacks abruptly ceased and she became the docile little fluff ball that she really is. I had almost decided to keep her as the pet pigeon, but I kept feeling that she missed the freedom she once knew. So on Christmas Day. I captured the male, who also adjusted very quickly to his captive situation. I kept him in the cage and the female outside the cage so they could get used to each other before they could actually get to each other. By that evening, they sat facing each 
other with the screen between them. I listened to them sing to each other. Soon after that I opened the cage so they could interact together. The first picture shows them on the clothes pole sitting together on the first night. Two days later, the female began scratching on the top corner of the clothes closet. I have seen pigeons do this before as they attempted to scratch out a hollow in which to make a nest. Being that a nest in that 
area would be not only out of my sight, by very difficult to clean, I glued a board accross the corner to prevent her from using that space. When she found that board, she was visibly upset. She tried all day to get behind it, but it was not to be. I put some pine needles in the nest bowl in the box and the male immediately went in and called the female. He called nonstop for hours before she finally gave up on her previously selected spot 
and joined him in the box. For a few days they brought more and more pine needles into the box to make a nest. At six-thirty in the evening on New Years Day, she laid the first egg, followed by the second on Thursday 
afternoon. Two pictures below show the female (Dru) and the male (Yako) dutifully incubating the eggs. I have seen the birds mate several times, but I guess I won't know if the are fertile until January 20th, when they should be hatching.

What I plan to do, when the young are between two and three weeks old, is to begin hand feeding them. That would probably also be a good time to release the adults back into the flock. This is perhaps the part of my plan that will be the most uncomfortable for the adults. I imagine they will be concerned about the whereabouts of their babies, and it will probably cause them some distress. Of course, one possibility is to allow the parents to keep the young until they are out of the nest naturally. But I think it will be more difficult to have the pigeons bond with me if I wait that long. At this point I am not sure what I will do, but I have some time to come up with a viable plan.

Well, there it is. I hope none of you are upset with me for what I am doing. Please rest assured that, if at any time, the birds seemed to react negatively or harmfully to themselves, they would have promptly been 
released. They act just like the homing pigeons and fantails I had years ago. It is almost like they were raised in captivity, but of course, they weren't. 

I will let you know how it goes. Take care, all.


Mike


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## goulian

*Fourth Picture*

Hi. I did not know there was a three picture maximum per post. Therefore here is the photo of Yako on the nest.

Mike

P.S. By the way, if you look closely at the picture of the Pigeon Room, you can see Dru on the top right on the clothes rod and Yako in the nest box.


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## TheSnipes

Huh. Well, maybe a bit unorthodox but you seem prepared for it and have your plan well thought out...good luck with your experiment. I guess this pair will live happily ever after and have an interesting tale to tell their grandkids some day, about the time a human took them home to its nest and pampered them.  They're both very pretty birds.


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## Reti

Have you considered what you would do if those two adults won't want to leave after the baby is almost grown? 
Also another thing to think about, what will you do with the baby if and when you have to return to the US?

Reti


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## Charis

Reti said:


> Have you considered what you would do if those two adults won't want to leave after the baby is almost grown?
> Also another thing to think about, what will you do with the baby if and when you have to return to the US?
> 
> Reti


That's my worry too. What about the baby when iy's time to come back to the states.


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## pigeonmama

I have to agree with what people are saying here. The set up is nice, more than adequate, but these birds are going to become used to being cared for, warm, and bonded with people. To just toss them out after producing a baby (babies) is going to be hard on them physically and emotionally, and then, like has been asked, what about the baby when you come back to the U.S? Why even start something that is going to end sadly. Why not wait until you return tho the U.S and then get a pigeon or two ?
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC

Hey Mike

You have really put a lot of effort into making a very nice home for a pigeon. They have room to fly and a nice roomy cage to go to for sleep. I do have one suggestion - I would clip the bottom off the yellow "tie downs" on the rod.

It is pretty amazing how those two have easily settled in your home. They already knew you so that helped a lot.

I can't give you any opinion on whether this is the right thing to do. Based on your posts, you care for pigeons and take very good care of your feral flock so whatever you decide to do, I know you will continue to take care of them.

And,  I am absolutely not upset with you.


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## Charis

I'm not upset with you either.


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## ZeldaCA

I am a total newbie here so this question may be a basic one, but won't the pigeon parents become upset at having to be separated from their young when you decide to return them to the wild and keep the babies? And won't they get protective when you attempt to approach their babies in the nest if they do, in fact, reproduce?

As I said, I'm new here, but I was just wondering about these things as I read your post.


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## goulian

Hello, All,

In response to TheSnipes: You are correct, it is a bit unorthodox and I did try to cover all the bases in preparation for it. I attempted to make the transition as easy as possible for the birds. I must have succeeded somewhat, as I don't think the birds would have mated, built a nest, and laid eggs all within six days of being released together in the Pigeon Room if they were not comfortable and at ease with the whole thing, or as you said, experiment, which is exactly what it is. And yes, they do make a handsome couple.

In response to Reti and Charis: As you, I too am concerned about what may or may not happen in the future. In my current position, I am not bound to a certain time frame after which I must leave the Republic of Korea. I am very happy here now and, as long as nothing earth shattering happens, I will continue to be so for a long time. I have no plans to leave here anytime within the next five years. If and when the time to leave does come, I will do what I can to either place my bird(s) in a good home or get them accustomed to the feral flock from which their parents came for an eventual release into that flock. I have a plan that I think should make the transition easy and uneventful. But I do not plan on having to move myself or the birds for many years.

And, yes, Reti, I have considered the possibility of the parent birds not wanting to leave after being separated from their babies. I am sure, in fact, that they will want to get back to their young. As I said in my original post, I suspect that this will be the most stressful time the birds will have to go through. Considering the fact that pigeons are so adaptable to changing situations, I am sure they will survive the period of stress, partly because they will be with their original flock, birds that they have known all their lives, but mostly because they are so quick to adapt. If I thought, even for a moment, that this would actually lessen their chances for survival or harm them in any way, I would not have done it. Also, there is no way they could find their way back to the Pigeon Room because they were in a canvas bag while being transported from the feeding area to my home, and will be so on the return trip to the flock.

In response to pigeonmama: The adult pigeons are somewhat bonded to me as are the others in the flock I feed. They respond to me and the friends that usually accompany me for the daily feedings. The flock responds to no other people who walk in the area where they wait to eat. The pigeons I have now will probably be somewhat less bonded to me when I release them as I have not interacted with them since they became a pair. I only enter the Pigeon Room to clean and change the food/water/grit. I do speak to them, but I do not hand feed them or even approach them to interact. I think they will be fine once returned to their flock. I am not too happy about your statement that I will "just toss them out". I have no plans to just toss them out. That would be like my throwing them out the window. They will be returned to their flock at the feeding site. They will be with other pigeons they have known for their entire lives, probably even their own families. Please understand that I have planned this entire operation to be as stressfree and easy for the birds as possible. There will be short periods of time when the pigeons will he "not as happy as they would like", but those periods of time will be short lived. I am sure they will do fine. As for the young one(s), yes they will definately be bonded to me. I plan to provide them with the best life I can give them for as long as I can give it to them. They deserve nothing less. I do not think I have started something that will end sadly. On the contrary, I think it will be a grand adventure that will benefit both me and the birds in my care for a long time. Of course, I could be mistaken. Bad things could happen to anyone, most of which none of us will be prepared for. I don't think that we should allow that to stop us from attaining our goals.

In response to Lady Tarheel: Yes, I have put a lot of effort into the preparation of my Pigeon Room. I wanted to make it as accommodating as possible. I had purposely left the ties uncut so the bird would have something to peck at while she was alone in the house. As it turned out, neither she nor her mate ever gave them a second look as far as I can tell. Your suggestion to cut the ties is a good one and I will do that today. Thank you. I believe the fact that both birds have known me for over five months and came easily to my hand made all the difference. A pair of pigeons captured on the street would never have had the success these have had. Even so, I was amazed that it only took a week to go from introduction to incubation.

The right thing to do...that is the question, isn't it? Different people will have different opinions about that. But, to those who think I have done something terribly wrong, please keep in mind that I did not do this without careful preparations. From capture to release, these pigeons have been, and will continue to be, handled with the utmost care and respect. Even at it's worst, these birds will not be harmed or abused in any way that will permanently hurt them. A few short periods of distress will probably occur, but nothing more.

As to "my" feral flock, I love them all. I am so glad that I found them and even happier that they have accepted me. Feeding them is the highlight of my day.

In response to ZeldaCA: You are absolutely correct, the parents will definately react badly to the separation. And they will spend some time trying to find them. But they will recover and continue on with their lives. Pigeons adapt quickly to changing circumstances. As to their being protective of their young, you are again correct. That is the reason they must be released prior to my hand feeding the young. Not only would the babies be reluctent to trust me while their parents are trying to drive me away from the nest, The continued stress and confusion that both adult and babies would go through would cause way to much damage to the birds. You also bring up another good point when you said "if they do, in fact, reproduce." This attempt to get a young pigeon or two is a one time deal. If both eggs are infertile, or if the young, for whatever reason, fail to survive, I will not make another attempt at it. The adults will be released and I will use the cage for a more normal type of bird pet, such as parakeets or finches.

In final response to all of you: I wish to thank you all. To Lady Tarheel, and Charis, who have stated that they are not upset with me, and to the rest of you who have not stated that you are, I thank you. Your suggestions and help over the months since I have joined this site, whether I have heeded them or not, have all contributed to my ability to love and care for the noble pigeon.

Take care and happy pigeoning.

Mike


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## Charis

Mike,
You are thoughtful and kind and gracious too. I really like you. 
Good luck with it all. You know where to find us if you need us. As you know we are not shy with our opinions nor with our willingness to help.


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## TAWhatley

Well, Mike, I'm not upset with you either. Best of luck to you and the birds in your endeavor! I've seen/read just about every half baked idea that there ever was here on pigeon talk for "acquiring" a pet pigeon. I think you have thought it out well, prepared for it well, and I'm convinced that no birds will be harmed in the process. I don't think many others should undertake something like this simply because they HAVEN'T thought it out and HAVEN'T prepared for things .. Good Luck!

Terry


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## TheSnipes

Mike, I really appreciate all the elaboration on your plans. I think it addresses all the concerns people may have had, and I only reiterate that while you've adopted an unusual approach, I think you prepared well and my gut reaction is that it will all work out just fine. I think the adult birds will be delighted to return to their flock and after what will likely be only a short separation, they'll settle in to normal life just fine. I hope you get a baby (or two) and am looking forward to pictures


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## Maggie-NC

Hey Mike

You know, I'm not even sure that the parents will be so terribly stressed out by returning to their feral flock. If you keep them with the babies for a couple of weeks, that is about the time the really intensive care of babies begins to taper off. Parents leave them more often and begin thinking about making more babies. They still feed them but the intensity wears down.

I look forward to seeing pictures of the babies and watch their growing years.


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## philodice

Seems like more of a vacation in a health spa than "time in captivity", since you are eventually going to return them to their friends I think the others in the flock just won't believe them.

"You were suddenly in darkness, got beamed up, and lived in luxury for a whole month? Sounds like you flew into the play pigeon mansion."


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## Charis

philodice said:


> Seems like more of a vacation in a health spa than "time in captivity", since you are eventually going to return them to their friends I think the others in the flock just won't believe them.
> 
> "You were suddenly in darkness, got beamed up, and lived in luxury for a whole month? Sounds like you flew into the play pigeon mansion."


Funny. I like the concept.


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## pigeonmama

Goulian,
How much longer will you be in Korea, and what are your plans for your pet pigeon(s) when you do return to the U.S?
Also, please have some bul gogi and yaki man du (sp?) for me, and let me know how great it was.
Daryl


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## TheSnipes

pigeonmama said:


> Goulian,
> How much longer will you be in Korea, and what are your plans for your pet pigeon(s) when you do return to the U.S?
> Daryl


Did you read the entire reply? He was pretty thorough about that potentiality.


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## horsesgot6

Mike, I'm not upset with you either.
What A Nice Place You Have For The Birds. They Are Both Very Pretty. I Know You Are There You said For Atleast Another 5 Years Well In 5 Years You Will Not Want To Give The Babys Up. You Seem Like The Type of preson That Once In Love Its Going To Be Hard To Just Give Them Away. So Now Would Be A Good Time To Look Into What You Will Need And How Much Its Going To Cost So You Can Bring These Babys Home With You. That Way You Will Have The Money And You Have The Time To Find Out What You need To About The Paperwork Part. There Is Another Thread on Here About someone Trying To Bring her Pet Pigeon To The USA. And The Cost Could Be Around $1000. in 5 Years It Could Go up But Aleast If You Start Now with Putting Some Money Away You Will Have It When You come Back To The USA. 
Good Luck And Can't Wait For Pictures Of The Babys.


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## goulian

Charis said:


> Mike,
> You are thoughtful and kind and gracious too. I really like you.
> Good luck with it all. You know where to find us if you need us. As you know we are not shy with our opinions nor with our willingness to help.


 Well, Charis, you give me cause to blush. I so very much appreciate your kind words. Don't looks now, but.... /looks to the right... /looks to the left... / looks straight at you....I like you, too.  

Yes, I found that most of the people on this forum are not shy with their opinions. I much prefer that than having folks just tell me what I want to hear. Especially with all the pigeon knowledge you guys have and your willingness to share that knowledge, your honest opinions are indeed welcome. 





TAWhatley said:


> Well, Mike, I'm not upset with you either. Best of luck to you and the birds in your endeavor! I've seen/read just about every half baked idea that there ever was here on pigeon talk for "acquiring" a pet pigeon. I think you have thought it out well, prepared for it well, and I'm convinced that no birds will be harmed in the process. I don't think many others should undertake something like this simply because they HAVEN'T thought it out and HAVEN'T prepared for things .. Good Luck!
> 
> Terry


 Thank you, Terry. I appreciate that. I have to admit that when I first put my thoughts of doing this on this forum, they were not as well thought out as they are now. Various things that were brought to my attention by members of this board forced me to rethink some of my plans. As of now, I think my plans are as good as I can make them, and are reinforced by the reversal of the general opinions and the almost unanimous acceptance and approval of my actions. 





TheSnipes said:


> Mike, I really appreciate all the elaboration on your plans. I think it addresses all the concerns people may have had, and I only reiterate that while you've adopted an unusual approach, I think you prepared well and my gut reaction is that it will all work out just fine. I think the adult birds will be delighted to return to their flock and after what will likely be only a short separation, they'll settle in to normal life just fine. I hope you get a baby (or two) and am looking forward to pictures


 Thank you for that but, as I said to Terry, above, the elaborations of my plans were a direct result of input by the pigeon folks on this forum. I will accept some of your thanks since I did change my original plans, but I bounce most of your thanks right back at you and the others who set me on the right path to accomplish this trial.

Well, come Sunday, the 20th of January, I will know if my attempts have a chance to succeed. Be it just one baby or two, a successful hatch, while not insuring the successful completion of my desires, will at least set the right direction for success. Only time will tell. Pictures will (crossed fingers) be forthcoming.




Lady Tarheel said:


> Hey Mike
> 
> You know, I'm not even sure that the parents will be so terribly stressed out by returning to their feral flock. If you keep them with the babies for a couple of weeks, that is about the time the really intensive care of babies begins to taper off. Parents leave them more often and begin thinking about making more babies. They still feed them but the intensity wears down.
> 
> I look forward to seeing pictures of the babies and watch their growing years.


 I certainly hope you are right about this. It does make sense, as they will be thinking about another brood about the time that want to start hand feeding the young. I do want to release them before that happens, though. And I am looking forward to posting pictures for you all to see.




philodice said:


> Seems like more of a vacation in a health spa than "time in captivity", since you are eventually going to return them to their friends I think the others in the flock just won't believe them.
> 
> "You were suddenly in darkness, got beamed up, and lived in luxury for a whole month? Sounds like you flew into the play pigeon mansion."


Thank you for this. All I can say is "Excellent."


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## goulian

Quote:
Originally Posted by philodice 
Seems like more of a vacation in a health spa than "time in captivity", since you are eventually going to return them to their friends I think the others in the flock just won't believe them.

"You were suddenly in darkness, got beamed up, and lived in luxury for a whole month? Sounds like you flew into the play pigeon mansion." 

Funny. I like the concept.



Charis said:


> Funny. I like the concept.


Definately!




pigeonmama said:


> Goulian,
> How much longer will you be in Korea, and what are your plans for your pet pigeon(s) when you do return to the U.S?
> Also, please have some bul gogi and yaki man du (sp?) for me, and let me know how great it was.
> Daryl


Obviously, you have been here and also eaten downtown. The yakimandu is something I like but I can take it or leave it. Now, the bulgogi is something I eat every Sunday at the restaurant I go to each morning. It is on the way to and from there that I feed the feral flock. And yes, it is great!

I think I covered my leaving Korea well enough in a previous post in this thread. However I did not explain my plans if in fact I must release the house pigeon(s) instead of taking them with me or placing them in a good home. Obviously, taking them with me is the preferable plan, followed by placing them with a good person to care for them. If they must be released, I intend on doing this via an extended introduction to the feral flock their parents came from. I will soon be building a portable cage big enough for two birds. It will be made from 1/4 inch wire grating, such as the Pigeon Room cage and door is made from. It will have a handle on top for easy carring and a cover over the outside to block the view of the pigeons inside while they are carried to the area where I feed the ferals. The cage will be placed on the ground and the cover removed. I will then feed the feral flock as I always do, allowing the pigeons in the cage to see and become accustomed to the other birds nearby. I will make sure that some of the feed goes into the cage so the pigeons within can eat right along side of the uncaged birds. When finished, I will cover the cage and take it home. I will repeat this every day and after a week or so, I will open the cage to allow the caged pigeons to walk out among the others and continue to eat. Then, after I finish feeding the flock, I will pick up the empty cage and walk away, watching how the released pigeon act. As a rule, the flock departs the feeding area within a minute of me leaving the area. If the released birds fly off with the flock, all is well. If not, I will retrieve them and try again later. I feed pretty confident that they will eventually join the flock. At least, that is my goal. Of course, I hopefully will not have to resort to releasing them, but I must have a working plan just in case.




TheSnipes said:


> Did you read the entire reply? He was pretty thorough about that potentiality.


 Yes, I was thorough about my leaving Korea, but not so much about how I plan to release the birds if all else fails. I have now corrected that
oversight.




horsesgot6 said:


> Mike, I'm not upset with you either.
> What A Nice Place You Have For The Birds. They Are Both Very Pretty. I Know You Are There You said For Atleast Another 5 Years Well In 5 Years You Will Not Want To Give The Babys Up. You Seem Like The Type of preson That Once In Love Its Going To Be Hard To Just Give Them Away. So Now Would Be A Good Time To Look Into What You Will Need And How Much Its Going To Cost So You Can Bring These Babys Home With You. That Way You Will Have The Money And You Have The Time To Find Out What You need To About The Paperwork Part. There Is Another Thread on Here About someone Trying To Bring her Pet Pigeon To The USA. And The Cost Could Be Around $1000. in 5 Years It Could Go up But Aleast If You Start Now with Putting Some Money Away You Will Have It When You come Back To The USA.
> Good Luck And Can't Wait For Pictures Of The Babys.


Yes, it would be difficult to give the birds away, and even more difficult to have to release them to their fate as a wild feral. The desired solution is to take the pigeon(s) with me. I have begun to look into what is required to do that. I have read the thread about another person trying to transport her pigeon to the United States. It can be done, but if I determine that the ordeal will be too much for the pigeon, or even dangerous for it, I may have to resort to one of the other stated solutions. Hopefully not, but at this time I can not be sure. 

Thank you for your kind comments concerning the Pigeon Room and the birds. They are indeed a pretty pair. Makes me wonder what their babies will ultimately look like. 



That is pretty much all the time I have right now to post here. I want to thank you all once more for your comments. Take care and enjoy your birds.


Mike


P.S. I am looking at the female now through a mirror placed on the wall so I can keep an eye on the nest box from my computer. And I can see that she is looking at me as I look at her. I only wish I could understand what is going through her mind as she sees me typing this. Wouldn't it be wonderful to actually know how they think or feel about things.


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## pigeonmama

Mike,
Never been to Korea, but had a neighbor when I was a youngster, and she was Korean. She was always feeding me those two particular things, but I was lucky and really loved her cooking. I do not like kim chee !!!
Daryl


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## horsesgot6

I Think The Point Everyone Was Trying To Make In The Other Thread Was Once You Have The Babys You Won't Beable To Release Them Back To The wild They Will Have been Rasied With out Having To Look For Food And If Release them They Have A High Rate Of Death. I Think You Really Only Have 2 Options with The Babys You Get. Bring Them Home To The USA with You Or Give Them To someone That Can Care For Them. 
The Why You write About This Tells Me These Babys Will Have What They Need And You Are A Smart Preson and That you will Love Them Alot. I Think Its Great That You Are Liking Into Bring These Babys Home with You Already And Have started To Save For It. But Just Think About The Stress The Babys Will Have To go Throw If You At The End Just Let Them Go Into A Wild Flock Plus With letting Them Go In A Wild Flock They Could Die. 
Are You Going To Band The Babys. If Not I'd Think About That To It May Help Later If They Are banded Birds. I'm Not Sure Just Something That Hit Me As I Was Typing This. 
Again I Think You Will Be A Great Home For These New Babys And i Can't Wait to See The Pictures.


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## goulian

pigeonmama said:


> Mike,
> Never been to Korea, but had a neighbor when I was a youngster, and she was Korean. She was always feeding me those two particular things, but I was lucky and really loved her cooking. I do not like kim chee !!!
> Daryl


OK. I never had the benefit of having Korean food before coming here. I like a lot of it but very much of the Korean foods are a bit too spicy for me. The ones that I can eat, though, I like very much, with a few exceptions.




horsesgot6 said:


> I Think The Point Everyone Was Trying To Make In The Other Thread Was Once You Have The Babys You Won't Beable To Release Them Back To The wild They Will Have been Rasied With out Having To Look For Food And If Release them They Have A High Rate Of Death. I Think You Really Only Have 2 Options with The Babys You Get. Bring Them Home To The USA with You Or Give Them To someone That Can Care For Them.
> The Why You write About This Tells Me These Babys Will Have What They Need And You Are A Smart Preson and That you will Love Them Alot. I Think Its Great That You Are Liking Into Bring These Babys Home with You Already And Have started To Save For It. But Just Think About The Stress The Babys Will Have To go Throw If You At The End Just Let Them Go Into A Wild Flock Plus With letting Them Go In A Wild Flock They Could Die.
> Are You Going To Band The Babys. If Not I'd Think About That To It May Help Later If They Are banded Birds. I'm Not Sure Just Something That Hit Me As I Was Typing This.
> Again I Think You Will Be A Great Home For These New Babys And i Can't Wait to See The Pictures.


I am sorry, Jennifer...as much as I would like to agree with you about my options, I am afraid I can not. In a perfect world, I would not need any options at all, as I would have no problems taking the bird(s) back to the United States with me. In a slightly less than perfect world, I would have two options, as you suggest: taking them to the States or finding a good home for them with a caring person. But this is not a perfect world, nor is it a slightly perfect world. It is the real world, one with many options, some good and some not so good. I actually have four options.

1. Take them with me.
2. Find them a good home.
3. Do a careful, gradual release into a flock of ferals.
4. I won't even say what this one is, but we all know.

Be assured, option 4 is NOT on the table. However, option 3 is a viable option provided options 1 and 2 fail. I believe that, if I do a long term, gradual release into a feral flock, the birds will have a good chance to survive with that flock. I know there is a chance that it may not work the way I would like it to. But, in all honesty, I think the chances are good enough for success than I am willing to do it. Does it make me a bad guy because I am willing to take a chance that, if failed, the pigeons would pay the price? Perhaps. But that is the way it is. I foresee a high degree of success in my keeping the birds healthy and happy. I foresee a slightly less than high degree of success in either taking these birds to the States with me or finding them a good home. I see a fair to good chance of success in the controlled release of the birds, if that is necessary. I just pray that I am right. I think the key to success in the release of the birds into the feral flock, if necessary, is to not just release them into the flock. I think it hinges on the management of how the release is accomplished. I will take all the time necessary to give them the best possible chance of living out the rest of their lives as normal pigeons, instead of the pampered, spoiled, and nieve birds they will be in my care. 

Well, I am not sure how smart I am, but I do know that I will love the bird(s)as much as anyone on this board can, and I will care for them to the best of my ability. I am confident of that. 

Banding the birds is something I had not thought about. I think that is a great idea and might be a big help to the birds if found by someone who understands and cares. Although, I don't really know what kind of bands or what they should say, if anything. Any suggestions out there would be appreciated.

Thanks for the idea and the nice things you have said. 

Take care and happy pigeoning.


Mike


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## horsesgot6

I Was Not Saying You Are A Bad Preson In Any Way. What I Was Saying Is You Will Give Them Lots of Love And Care So To Release Them If Options 1&2 Didn't Happen Then The Pigeons Would Die In The Wild. From Birth They Will Have Everything They Need Given To Them. So In 5 Years Shot Even 6Months They will Not Be Wild Birds They will Not Know How To Care For Themself. They Will Have Been Pets Not Wild Birds. Yes You can Take A Farel Pigeon That Was ReHabbed That Has Already Been In A Flock And Do A slow release But To me Not Pets. Millions Of Animals Die every year because People Take Pets And just Drop Them Off Thinking They can Take Care Of Them Self , They Will Be Fine. These People Are Lieing to There Self. 
I'm Sorry If i Have Made You Mad By This But this Is How I See It Your Birds Once Pets Will Die If Released. 
One More Thing Our Pet Don't Pick Use , We Pick Them And What That Mean's We Should As Pet Owner Protect Them And care For Them And Only Do Whats Safe For Them. Putting A Animal Out That Has Never Had To Care For It self Is Not Safe And Will Die. 
Plus you Said You have 5 years Well in 5 years There shouldn't Be Any reason Option 1 Or 2 Didn't Work. 
In A Prefect world People Wouldn't Add To All The Other Needy Animals Out there in this World By dropping There Pets Off. rehabbers Shouldn't Have To Care For Peoples Throw Aways because People Couldn't Do The Rigth Thing By There Animals Like find A Home Or Take It With You. 
I Love My Animals And I'd Give Up everything I Had To keep Them Safe. 

And Yes I'm Saying This Again :
Our Pet Don't Pick Use , We Pick Them And Want them That Mean's We Should As Pet Owner Protect Them And care For Them And Only Do Whats Safe For Them.


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## goulian

I was going to wait until I got home from work to respond to your post, Jennifer, but I decided not to. I don't want you thinking I am mad at you. Quite the opposite. Your obvious love of pigeons and other animals make you quite a wonderful person. I only disagree with your opinion that to release the pet birds, no matter how carefully it is done, will result in the death of the birds. I do not think it will. Once they willingly fly off with the flock, I think they are past the point of failure. They go where the flock goes, they eat and drink what the flock eats and drinks, they sleep where the flock sleeps. I believe that the same adaptability that pigeons show in going from a feral life to a confined life can also work in the other direction, if carefully done. I could be mistaken. If so, then I am wrong. But I think that, once they accept the flock, they will be showed the way to survive just by being with the flock. 

No, I am not mad at you for any reason. Not even a little bit. We just have two different opinions about something that I will do my best not to have to resort to.

Take care,

Mike


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## horsesgot6

Mike , 
Thanks For Letting Me Know. You Seem Like A Very Careing Man And in a Short Time i Know You Will Love These Babys So Much That Option 3 Will go Away Its Aways Easy To Say Or Think But When It Comes Time i Think You Will Be To In Love With These Birds To See Them Go. I Know They Will Have A Good Home With You And Will Be Well Loved And Cared For. I See That Very Nice Room You Have For Them And The Parents Look So At Home Which Say's Alot About You. To Think Animals Can Tell On You.  
Yes i Do Love My Animals Most My Animal I Saved i Have Horses 13 Well 7 own Me Then The Other Horses Belong To steve But His Own Me to  Then We Have Alot Of Barn cats Most i Have To Feed They Were dropped Off Here , Then My 6 Dogs i Only Paid For 1 she is A Mini Dachshunds Plus I Have 2 Of Her Puppys The Other 3 Where Saved Dogs. Then My Birds They Came from Good Homes but they had To Many Thoses were my outside Pigeons Which I Just Gave Most All Them To A Young Boy Thats what he wanted for Christmas Pigeons. He takes Care Of them on His Own The Last i Talked to His Parents. I had Some Barn Cats wanting Them Really Bad So When His dad Said Something About what His Son Wanted i Offered Him My Outside Pigeons just to Be Safe for them As i Allowed Them To Fly Free All day When My Chickens Where Out. I Still Have About 8 That Are Inside Pigeons Now Plus The Ones That Where already Inside. then i have My sheep He came From the Stockyard When I Got Him He Had A really Bad Foot. My Vet didn't Think He Would Live. But He Did his Foot/nail is Funny Looking But Other Then that he Is Fine. 
Well I Better Stop Talking As I can Talk All day When it comes To Animals i Get Started And can't ever seem To Stop. There is Pictures of Some Of My Kids on my Photo Site. 
I Hope To See Picture's Of the new babys Soon. I Have A pair due 2 days After Yours They Are Due the 22.


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## goulian

Hi Folks,

Well, it is Saturday afternoon at 3:00 PM, 19 January, here in Korea. In twenty four hours I should know whether or not the eggs are fertile. They should hatch, or at least start to hatch sometime tomorrow. I am keeping my fingers crossed, as I hope you folks are too, that success will be attained. My next post to you will tell it all. Wish me luck.


Take care, All.



Mike


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## Charis

Good luck to you and the contents of the eggs!


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## TAWhatley

Good luck to you and the egglings, Mike!

Terry


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## goulian

I am pleased to formally announce the existence of two newly born pigeon souls. At the moment the mother is in the protective mode and will not allow me to take a photo. Maybe later. 

Take care.


Mike


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## Charis

That is so sweet.
I discovered an oops baby myself this morning. I realize yours were planned.


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## TAWhatley

Congratulations, Mike and pigeon parents!

Terry


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## TheSnipes

Congratulations Mike, and you too, Charis!!!


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## Reti

Oh, how wonderful.
Congratulations to both of you.

Reti


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## Fever

Congrats on the new birds! I thought your method of obtaining pigeons was a little strange, but it says a lot about how much you care for them that they bonded and laid eggs for you so quickly! It sounds like you put a lot of care into picking the perfect pigeons for your experiment.

Good luck, and best wishes to you all!


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## goulian

Hi, All.

Thank you for your kind words. Charis, congratulations on your oops baby. Sometimes they are the best kind. Also, I think the main reason these birds have done so well is because they have been eating out of my hand for about six months before I took them in. They already had some trust with me, which made the adjustment a lot easier on them. Although I may be able to honestly take credit for some of the success, the majority or the credit goes to the pigeons, themselves. That is the way it should be. Another thing, the first egg was laid on New Years Day and both eggs hatched on Martin Luther King's Day, both federal holidays. That has to be a good sign.

Take care, All, and happy pigeoning.

Mike


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## TheSnipes

Ahh, federal holiday birdies! Perhaps your youngsters will grow up to pursure careers in public service. A pigeon would be an improvement over a number of politicians I can think of, currently in office, who will remain nameless


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## Charis

TheSnipes said:


> Ahh, federal holiday birdies! Perhaps your youngsters will grow up to pursure careers in public service. A pigeon would be an improvement over a number of politicians I can think of, currently in office, who will remain nameless


Wouldn't that be something!


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## Dezirrae

Congratulations Mike (and Charis too!)... I must say Mike - your room looks wonderful to me and if I do wind up with pigeons some day maybe I can do something like that (slow road sometimes talking hubby into these things  ). In any case - I really am thrilled for you - and look forward to the pictures (once Mom becomes a bit less protective of course).


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