# Advanced Procedures discussions



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Cindy asked that if the discussion on crop suctioning were to continue, to start a new thread. So here it is, as I am pretty concerned about what I have been reading on the prior thread(I refer to"speaking of crop stasis"]. From time to time an advanced procedure, such as crop suctioning, will be posted and there is a response from others that says the poster of the information is wrong for doing so and that this kind of treatment should not be discussed for fear someone will try it that isn't qualified. At the same time another member may post about an equally advanced procedure with at least as many risks as the first and no comment is made at all. I find this to be very inconsistent and inappropriate. We are either going to have an open forum where opinions can be stated and procedures discussed without fear of retaliation or we are going to have a censored forum. What is it to be? Others have pointed out that situations differ from place to place and event to event. They do, and what might be extreme in one circumstance might be appropriate in another. THERE IS NO ONE ON THIS FORUM THAT IS ADVOCATING EXTREME INVASIVE MEASURES. Everyone here is pro-pigeon and cares deeply. There are some of us on this forum that are comfortable discussing difficult cases and some who are not. There are some who have the skill to do advanced treatment. If you are one of them, I applaud your skill and willingness to use it, for without it a pigeon somewhere would be dead for lack of treatment. I am grateful for your willingness to share your knowledge, for I am learning and feel all knowledge increases my skill and ability. If I disagree with your approach to treatment, I have to right to say so, and hopefully give a logical reason why, but I do not have the right to tell you how to proceed in your treatment or tell you you are wrong to think differently than I or accuse you of promoting something because you posted about it. This said, I hope that open discussion on advanced procedure can proceed so that we can all learn from each other. And in the process of that open discussion I would hope that respect for individual differences and skill levels can be maintained.

Margaret


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*For A Start ..*

Let's all read the "rules": http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f9/forum-rules-of-conduct-7006.html

I'll try to be back in a bit with some thoughts I have, but it might end up being tomorrow.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Margaret, 




Thank you for your well reasoned mentions and invitation to appreciate not only the technical questions of what we could call 'Advanced Proceedures' themselves, but for the opportunity to appreciate and regard the concerns and feelings which attend or become involved in how duscuss with our Vets, or with eachother, proceedures we ay wish to understand, without per-se appearing to be advocating them as a practice for those who are not qualified to do them.



In my own opinion and experience, most Licenced Veterinarians are not technically 'qualified', for example, to suction 'out' the fermenting or foul Liquids of a severly filled and static Crop Pigeon...or, they will err badly in their fumbles both conceptually and tecnhically for want of understanding, and, for lack of critical experience on which understanding would be based.

Nor, are they 'qualified' to 'milk' out festering, spoiled, foul, poisoned, or other Seeds or solid Crop contents, for the same reason.


So the question of 'who' is 'qualified', at-once becomes a matter of the individual practioner or operative, and not one of ostensible License or Station.



How 'dangerous' are these proceedures to the Pigeon?


I believe that will depend on the wit and quality of attention, and the general understandings ane appreciations which the individual operative brings to the tasks, and, their understanding of how to reduce the liabilities to the Bird, while getting the matter done safely and as kindly as possible... as well as to decide if it even ought to be done at all.


How 'dangerous' is it to drive-a-car?


We would all agree I am sure...that this resolves on 'who' is 'driving', and under what conditions.


This in itself brings the matter to an interesting ground and pause for thought.


Clearly, the criteria and protocols for deciding when, how, why and if a proceedure of any important kind is to be done, and, for it to respect and defer to the individual Bird in question as a correctly configured and contextually 'reasonable' election, is potentially a complex matter, requiring judgement which is hard for an individual to form if too much of it is new, intimidating, or confused in their comprehension.



Anyway, my brain is tired and I have a lot of Work piled up waiting for me to do..!


Thank you for your missive..!

... and I for one, will return later sometime when I can think better and have less things pressing on me needing to be done here.



Best wishes..!


And God Bless all the Little Beaks, and all those who care for and about them...

In that order, of course...




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 



Good reminder, thank you...

If I may 'quote' for convenience - 




> 1. Pigeon Talk forums offer support, empowerment, education and entertainment to pigeon enthusiasts in every aspect of this fancy. Since each user is responsible for their own posts, please use discretion when weighing the value of information found in these forums.
> 
> 2. This is a pigeon advocate website. Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any cruel treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. While we encourage an exchange of opinions in these forums, please note that there are specific 'Off Limit' topics that are PROHIBITED and any such posts will be be immediately removed without discussion. Off Limit topics include:
> 
> ...




There is no definition ( aside from 'Surgical Proceedures' being used as a phase, which is fairly unambiguous, but stillnot clear for peripheral tasks of various sorts, ) on what constitutes an 'invasive' proceedure, nor, what defines 'who' is 'qualified', other than Licenced/qualified Vetinary Doctor.


Since 'tube feeding' is technically about the same as 'Crop Suctioning' as far as how they are in effect complimentary or liable to similar mishap if done wrongly or done badly, and are really in mere reverse of eachother as proceedures...if Crop suctioning is to be regarded as 'invasive', then so ought 'tube feeding', and hence, we might wish to consider whether to forbid both, or, to instead, advocate in good detail how either is to be done rightly, if it is to be done at all, and to be careful in our advocacy of either practice to the inexperienced or clumsy.


...since posession of a Veterinary Licence is no guarntee of either Avian skills or competance for either of these ( or other Avian ) proceedures...it in itself poses a conflict or ambiguity in which a contradiction in inherent and immediate.


One may naively expect a licenced Veterinarian to be able to do a good job of say, Tube Feeding, or Crop Suction, or Setting a Broken Leg or Wing, but, unless one now enough about either, and the ramifications attending either, how is one to judge? Especially if the outcome is bad, or poor? Does one then go back to the Veterinarian and rebuke him or her and demand one's Money back? Does one insist to be handed the 'License' so one may tear it up in front of the offending Practioner?


Probably not...


Just thinking...but now off to Work..!



Love, 



Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil,
We all know that not all DVMs are qualified in Avian medicine. The rules and proceedures of this forum do specify not just licensed but QUALIFIED.

Surgical Procedures. Invasive procedures on any animal should ONLY be performed by a licensed/QUALIFIED veterinary doctor. If you have an emergency situation please contact a professional for advice and treatment. There are many resources on Pigeon-Life that can help you locate professional care. Just because you may find a procedure posted on the WEB that doesn't mean it is valid or humane.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> Phil,
> We all know that not all DVMs are qualified in Avian medicine. The rules and proceedures of this forum do specify not just licensed but QUALIFIED.
> 
> Surgical Procedures. Invasive procedures on any animal should ONLY be performed by a licensed/QUALIFIED veterinary doctor. If you have an emergency situation please contact a professional for advice and treatment. There are many resources on Pigeon-Life that can help you locate professional care. Just because you may find a procedure posted on the WEB that doesn't mean it is valid or humane.




Hi Charis, 






Please resolve for me, according to your understanding and interpretation of the 'Rules', the question of whether 'Tube Feeding' is an 'invasive proceedure', only to be performed by a 'Licenced/QUALIFIED Veterinary Doctor'...


I am not trying to trap you into an awkward position, but rather, I am inviting you to consider the awkward position which lay before us with respect to this quesiton.



Thank you, 


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Nona points out, the cost is usually prohibitive. What does one do? I live in an area where I can access an Avian vet, and I do from time to time. But that aside, I have discussed treatments here that I'm doing that distinctly fall in the vet only category per this forums definitions, and have been supported for doing it by members here. I have been told to do interventions by my avian vet that would definitely be in the off limits category per the rules here. So what is the answer? I don't feel that a blank statement of "seek out a certified Avian Vet" addresses the issues that people are confronted with. We respond to people all over the world. There are many places where appropriate food for a pigeon is a difficulty, let alone any kind of vet, yet the need for intervention exists. What about those circumstances? 

There was a time when we weren't as concerned with certifications and degrees in the USA. We were more self reliant and learned to care for our livestock out of necessity, learning from one another to render expert and loving care from years of hands on experience. It pains me to see how willingly many people have given up this knowledge and now simply defer to the "degreed experts". This forum, fortunately, has many experienced and expert rehabbers willing to share their experience and knowledge. And because of it, many birds who would be otherwise left to suffering and horrible deaths are spared that. 

Nona and Phil,

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. There are many of us out here in the forum who want to learn from those who are willing to teach us. How do we address this issue? 


The goal, from my POV, is to render compassionate and competent care to pigeons and other birds who would otherwise suffer and perhaps die. Should we limit this knowledge to only selected people? Should we do nothing? Should we reveiw the rules and clarify further what is and what isn't OK on this forum? If we are to have hard and fast rules about what is discussed, are exceptions to be made? (At the present time this seems to be the situation). I personally am an advocate of an open forum. Advanced proceedures can be identified as such when they come up with all kinds of warnings that they are not for the novice. But I guess the bottom line from where I sit is what Little Bird said. I'm going to scoop up that bird and do all I can to relieve pain and suffering and support healing. I hope that the skilled experts on this forum will be allowed to continue to offer their knowledge so that I can become more competetent at what I do. Ignorance can impose much more cruelty than knowledge. Letting a bird suffer and die from fear of breaking rules would be a travesty imo. I suggest we be free to offer the best knowledge we can to each other here, so that when we do encounter an injured or ill bird we can do all we can to help without doing further harm.

Margaret


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Whoops, a part of my reply did not print. I've been having a great deal of trouble with the mechanics of this site for the last couple of days.

I had addressed the first part to Charis. It had begun" While referring people to an Avian vet is the ideal, it is not realistic. As Nona points out.....

I had also said:

Terry,
Thank you for referring us to the rules. One of the issues I have is that the rules, as currently written, are not applied evenly. Many proceedures that are routinely discussed here are, by the rules, out of bounds, but are tolerated and even encouraged. There have been quite a few instances in the time I have been on the forum where two people have brought up procedures that equally violate the rules. Yet one is supported and the other reprimanded. This smacks of favoritism to me and I find it unfair and distressing when it occurs.

Margaret


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> *Cindy asked that if the discussion on crop suctioning were to continue, to start a new thread.* So here it is
> 
> Margaret


Yes, I did. Thank you for doing so.

I just logged on & haven't yet read any comments so I have no idea what has been said. However, I am asking that *everyone* be respectful in their posting. I don't want to see any insulting, cruel, hurtful, sarcastic, etc. comments. If I do, the thread is closing.

*If one can't communicate without attacking another personally, or generally, with inappropriate comments, then don't post.* *Period*.

Thank you.

Cindy


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

It is a great thing we have to be able to share information. I really like knowing about advanced things, although I have no intention of EVER doing them myself. It just helps me know what can be done, and lets me have intelligent conversations with the vet so I know if the 'rescuer' is just 'feeding me porkie pies' and plans to cull the bird as soon as I leave.


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

Many, many years ago, before the computer, before avian or exotic vets and before rehabbers were in the phone book, I was helping mammals and birds in need. It was trail and error back then, if I was lucky I could find a book in the library that might help. I lost a few, but from their loss I learned and saved more.

What I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much from this site, not only the pros but also the newbies with questions that need answering.
Will I go out and implement this knowlegde? Yes if I have NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE and I feel that its life or death. I cannot turn my back on an animal in need.

Please keep sharing your wealth of knowledge.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Margaret and Nona... I was quoting the rules. "Qualified" doesn't mean "Certified Avian".
Not all vets are as expensive as NYC and fortunately NYC has Animal General.
I would say this...
1] Not all members are aware of their limitations and since this is an on-line forum, we have no way of assessing skill levels.
2] This is not an on-line veterinarian clinic and we are not veterinarians nor licensed to practice veterinary medicine. Many of us rehabbers aren't licensed and I SUSPECT there may be POTENTIAL LEGAL LIABILITY to the OWNERS and MODERATORS of this forum for our actions and maybe even the MEMBERS. I am aware there is a disclaimer but that doesn’t prohibit someone from taking legal action if they decide they want to. I will stop at that because I am not qualified to offer legal advice although I am knowledgeable in Oregon Real Estate Law. 
3] Some of the invasive procedures that have been advised and guided through this forum have been extremely invasive...PAINFUL to the bird and without the use of any kind of anesthesia and resulting in the ultimate death of the bird, which is why the rules were more defined.
4] As members, we have agreed to abide by these rules.

Personally, I wouldn't wish to have an invasive medical procedure without the benefit of anesthesia, a sterile environment, pain meds after and a qualified medical professional preforming the proceedure. If I chose otherwise, at least I would have the benifit of having someone explain to me what was happening and ask my permission. If I was unconscious, I wouldn't know so I guess it wouldn't matter to me. 
__________________
Phil, I would consider tube feeding an invasive procedure and best left to be taught in real life by someone qualified to instruct. My vet friend taught me years ago and was with me every time I tube fed until I was comfortable doing it and she was comfortable with me doing it too. I would not try to explain it on-line. I think Cynthia very well explained the difference between putting something into the crop and suctioning something out.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Cynthia,

Thank you for your informative and considered response. Yes, I will give an example as you requested. Since you posted that you gave directions here for the administration of SubQ fluids, a definite invasive procedure, let me compare that with crop suctioning another invasive procedure, both out of bounds per the regulations here.

The administration of subQ fluids has associated risks. The first is the chance of infection from crossing the skin barrier. The second is that the fluid to be administered must be sterile. The fluid should be warmed to not be shocking to the bird. The administrator must be knowledgeable about pigeon anatomy to know where to place the fluid and the risk of accidentally going too deep and severing an artery with subsequent bleed out always exists with parenteral treatment. So all told, there are definite risks.

In comparison, crop suctioning has the risks of the catheter adhering to the wall of either the crop or esophagus causing damage, if not outright perforation, if handled too roughly or incorrectly. The person performing the treatment must be aware of the anatomy so as not to get the catheter in the airway. The right kind of catheter needs to be used and the right technique used.

Both of these are lifesaving measures. IMO they are both good tools for a rehabber to know in the case of extreme emergency when no other option is available and totally appropriate for discussion in a rescue rehab forum. There was no objection here to your post describing how to do subQ fluids. There were several objections to the post on subQ fluids. This is what I refer to when I say that the rules here are not applied uniformly. I found both posts informative and now have the knowledge of these techniques available in hopes that I never have to do either, but will be prepared in the event that I might need them. I am grateful for your willingness to share your knowledge and appreciate it more than you know.

Now I would like to share a bit. I thought your experiment with the catheter and suction was extremely good. I would like to add one more bit of information, as this is exactly what I am talking about when I advocate the open exchange of information. Do your test again with the catheter and OJ. Now, just before you apply the suction, rotate the catheter and continue to constantly rotate it the whole while suction is applied. You can just roll it to and fro in your fingers. I think you will find that this eliminates tissue being sucked into the catheter as you extract fluid. It is the safest way to avoid tissue damage. The rotation breaks the suction before it can be sealed and do damage.

Proper direction and use is of the utmost importance in any technique, be it tube feeding, warming a baby or the more advanced stuff with extremely ill birds. I will continue to say that education is more important than maintaining ignorance and censoring information. The wealth of information we share here creates an atmosphere of learning that one simply can’t access anywhere else. As you say, you are fortunate. The laws in the UK are specific and you have a supportive vet. Many here do not have either of those. We are their only resource.

Margaret


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> The administration of subQ fluids has associated risks. The first is the chance of infection from crossing the skin barrier. The second is that the fluid to be administered must be sterile. The fluid should be warmed to not be shocking to the bird.
> *The administrator must be knowledgeable about pigeon anatomy to know where to place the fluid and the risk of accidentally going too deep and severing an artery with subsequent bleed out always exists with parenteral treatment.*
> 
> In comparison, crop suctioning has the risks of the catheter adhering to the wall of either the crop or esophagus causing damage, if not outright perforation, if handled too roughly or incorrectly.
> ...


You hit the nail on the head, Margaret.

With that said:
How many times has advice such as tube feeding, suctioning, debridement of a wound, etc., been posted to folks who have admitted having absolutely no knowledge of pigeons, to include their in-depth anatomy? 

How many times has this advice been given to members who *are* familiar with pigeons, however, have no knowledge of their in-depth anatomy.

*This* is where my concerns lie. 

Cindy

With regard to the suctioning comment noted above, that *was *advised, however I don't know exactly what the experience is of the recipient.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I am propably the lowest level of novice here, but I would like to make a comment here.

I personally would never attempt any of the procedures here as I am certainly not qualified nor do I have enough experience with birds to even consider these procedures even in the face of an emergency. I was much too scared to even attempt to tube feed my baby and fed him at his own pace one drop at a time into his beak with an eye dropper until he was weaned.

I firmly believe that knowledge is power. I read just about everything on this forum. The knowledge that I have acquired here is amazing. I truly believe that this would not have been possible for me if it was not for this forum.

I feel that censorship here would be a detriment to all concerned and would be a set back to the express purpose of this site to be a resource and advocacy for saving piegons.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> With regard to the suctioning comment noted above, that *was *advised, however I don't know exactly what the experience is of the recipient.


I'm at the point where I don't know who the "recipient" being referred to here is, but in case it is me, let me note for the record that I do know how not to "get the catheter in the airway."


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

At no time in any of my posts have I objected to any discussion about suctioning. My point was to make it known that this procedure is difficult and dangerous if not done properly by someone who knows what they are doing. I just don't know how I can make it any plainer than that. Somehow that caution has taken on a life of its own. 

I stay on this forum for two reasons - the people and expanding my knowledge of how to care for pigeons. Throughout my entire time on the forum, I have shared anything we have learned. Anytime we take a pigeon to the vet, if it is for something out of the ordinary, I come on line and describe what we found. In the sad times when we have lost a pigeon, I report the findings of a pathologist. I have shared the unusual diseases and injuries we've encountered and what was done. We often have a thread that members respond to by phone, e-mail, PM's. I have always advocated that this be kept to a minimum and after information is shared by any of those methods, to please post the conversation on the forum so we can all learn from what was said.

That being said, I have NO problem with discussing "advanced procedures" however they may be defined. But, we still need to be mindful that we could tread a slippery slope in some situations. I don't want people (who have no basic knowledge or experience of caring for a pigeon) to use information on this site as carte blanche to treat a pigeon beyond the basic lifesaving methods already in our "Resource" sections. I also don't know about the legal ramifications. 

One of the things I would like to have on the forum are resource (stickies) threads that deal with specific things like "how to treat canker"; "how to treat a bird that has been poisoned"; how to treat a bird that has been burned"; etc. that detail these procedures. We have numerous threads that deal with a variety of topics but it requires a great deal of searching to find them. I know each individual case is different but basic guidelines would be helpful. 

And, Margaret, I am not your adversary in this matter. I believe in an open forum where treatment options can be discussed. However, because this is an open forum, those members who don't agree that certain topics should be discussed have as much right to speak their opinion as you have. I also have the right to speak up when I believe members should be cautioned about the dangers of a procedure. I think we need to be respectful of each member's opinion.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

jenfer said:


> I'm at the point where I don't know who the "recipient" being referred to here is, but in case it is me, let me note for the record that I do know how not to "get the catheter in the airway."


My reference to that was, I didn't know if you fall under the category of one who *is* familiar with a pigeon's anatomy or one who isn't. 

Cindy


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> You hit the nail on the head, Margaret.
> 
> With that said:
> How many times has advice such as tube feeding, suctioning, debridement of a wound, etc., been posted to folks who have admitted having absolutely no knowledge of pigeons, to include their in-depth anatomy?
> ...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> *The administrator must be knowledgeable* about pigeon anatomy to know where to place the fluid and the risk of accidentally going too deep and severing an artery with subsequent bleed out always exists with parenteral treatment. So all told, there are definite risks.
> 
> *The person performing the treatment must be aware* of the anatomy so as not to get the catheter in the airway. The right kind of catheter needs to be used and the right technique used.
> 
> ...





Margarret said:


> Cindy,
> 
> *I am in favor of dispensing information in the hopes that more people will become educated and more birds saved.*
> I recognize that there is a risk of errors, but in withholding information there is also frequent bad outcomes, as people often have nowhere else to turn and the bird dies without treatment.
> ...


I am definitely in favor of one becoming more educated as well. 

Advising an inexperienced person to perform a particular procedure with one, or maybe two, posts as training does not constitute proper education, IMO.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

philodice said:


> It is a great thing we have to be able to share information. I really like knowing about advanced things, although I have no intention of EVER doing them myself. It just helps me know what can be done, and lets me have intelligent conversations with the vet so I know if the 'rescuer' is just 'feeding me porkie pies' and plans to cull the bird as soon as I leave.



Hi philodice, 



I also feel this is very important, or, would be to any earnest or interested or self-actualized pilgrim...even if only to be limited to one's own edification, and not per-se because one intends to translate edifications into any 'practice'.


It is the same really for anything, for getting a repair done to one's Car, one's air Conditioner, one's House Plumbing, and so on...or, arriving at a point where one can at least inspect and form conjectures against which one will weigh the opinions or analysis of the 'professional' to whom one then appeals.


The more one know and understand about any subject, and with humility, the better one is prepared to act responsibly with respect to that subject...and in this, the better one is prepared to evaluate or inspect what others are offering or selling.


The ubiquity of practioners, salesmen, advisors, in all fields, exploiting and double-talking a gullible clientelle, and or doing poor quality work or un-necessary high-priced 'work' in addition just because they can slip-it-in', is well known to anyone of practical, 'Worldly' experience.



The wholesome, well grounded, rational, 'Self Reliance' which once largely characterized the American ethos, was never a pretext or self delusion for shoddy work, myopic self indulgence, or irresponsibility or contempt...it did not rely on precipitous foolhardyness, soft headedness, self agrandizement or delusion, but, rather, relied or relies yet, on a slow accrue of practical self-nourishing progress, confluences of hard won insight, intuition, knowledge, or whatever else nourishes or underlay perception...subtle and pragmatic 'skills' of all sorts whose confluence countenanced whatever task was or is at hand, and, in this, to know the difference and respect the difference, for what one can do 'well' one's self, in respect to the subject, and, what one best appeal to wiser or more able Hands for, if it is to be done 'well'...and to recognise when it matters to do so.

The 'Founding Fathers' themselves, to-a-man, despised 'professionals' and advocated intelligent and self educated 'Amateurs', emotional and pragmatic independance, and, considered themselves Amateurs...which term in those days, meant one had motives and reason and respect ( respect being in this context, a eupheism for Love ) which were about respecting one's self, and respecting a subject.

Where, the term 'professional' denoted a sort of indifferent or glad-handing 'prostitute' whose motives and reason tended to be a false fronted refutation of Love, and a sham of 'respect' for the Subject.



Conditions of comproise, duress, coersion of circumstance, are well known and appreciated to any practical person.



I am no Physician of course and I have very little 'Medical' acumen, but, were I to come upon a Car accident where no cell phone or passing Motorists could be found, if there were injured people, I would rally what I could to aid them gently, even if my attentions would be naive.


I have in fact done so several times in times passed...one guy, his jagged femur was sticking out of his pants leg, and one arm was broken and 'rubbery', and he was deliriously crawling such as he could, toward some bushes.


I just got his head on my calf as I sat on the asphalt, and was sort of sotfly talking and lightly 'petting' his head, leaning over him, and I got him to relax and to stop feeling like anything more 'bad' was going to happen or that he needed to hide, and I got him to sort of 'track' with my soothing and positive narrative in which I layed out where he was at, and how to countinance it positively...and finally he was lightly smiling and off in some 'dream' place where he decided everything was going to work out alright even if for the moment there was 'adventure' which had given him pause...and after a while an abulance arrived.


What would an MD have done?


I don't know...

I made sure there was no serious bleeding needing to be checked, and there was not.


But...one does what one may, or one does what one does...according to ones wits, skills, understanding, perception, character, and whatever else...and, in light of this, there is only this...one way or another...even if it is rallied in qualifying the election of those to whom one does appeal, or to whom one acquiesces.


So, in summary, whether for an accrueing of edifications which allow one to converse intelligently with ones Vet, which allow one to better evaluate conditions which recommend one consult one's vet, or, to nuture those practices one may in moral respect, feel one is qualified to perform...


Discussions which can explore relatively 'basic' proceedures which Pigeons occasionally may require, and how to decide what some particular condition represents, being able to understand the protocols and points of observance and import those simple or basic proceedures require in order to be performed correctly and safely and with kindness regardless of 'who' is doing them, are valuable and educational for anyone interested...and benifit the Birds directly in many various ways.



...even if it is limited to reviewing the apparent competance of ones Vet for seeing him or her do something, or for having seen him or her do it in the past...where, possibly, if one then feels the Vet was not competant, one may wish to seek out a different Vet for occasions of that Proceedure needing to be done...because one does know more now about how it ought to be done to be done safely and well and with kindness.


I see nothing but benifit and value to discussions of basic proceedures which Pigeons occasionally need.


How else would one know that they 'need' them? in order to consult a Vet, where, otherwise, given the expense and time and logistical troubles for many people, they might have instead just hoped the condition would blow over on it's own.


And, for those whose own prior or preceeding experience allows them to step forward into the sober humility of the learning curve of actual practices for basic things, it is their own judgement call as for whether they wish to do a simple or basic proceedure themselves, or not.


And, as we all know, many situations are such, that realistically, this can sometimes be the only option there is.



Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Um... I think that you mean that there were no objections to my post on subQ fluids and that you think there should have been...not on the grounds that you objected to the content of the post, you have already made it clear that you think there should be the freedom to describe these procedures , but because you considered that it was "unfair" that concern had been expressed about the procedures described by Phil in his post, but not to my response to Jennifer's post.
> 
> Yes, I made a typo error. My statement should have read There were no bojections to the subQ post and there were to the crop suction one. I'm glad you clarified. I was pointing out that both treatments were advanced and have risks. No objections were made to your post, objections were made to Phil's, even though, by the literal rules of the forum they are both invasive proceedures. I was not objecting to the content of either post. I don't think there should have been objections to either post. I was simply pointing out that the rules of the forum are not evenly applied when treatments that fall under similar "invasive" criteria are described. If we are to have rules, then they should apply to all, not unevenly as seems to be the case. I have not singled out you or Phil. This was just an example. I used yours because you brought it up. I did not name Phil. I don't have any intention of naming or blaming. I have seen a number of instances where one person was cautioned, while another, in a very similar situation was not. I'm concerned that the rules are invoked at times when they may support a person's point of view rather than being the guidelines they are supposed to be.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is difficult. It would go better with a helper to hold the bird and a suctioner. When learning to suction it is awkward at first. It gets easier with practice. The good thing is that with the syringe you are controling the amount of suction from moment to moment. With a suction machine, you have to be pretty zippy at rotating that tube so it doesn't engage tissue. BTW, I have not done a crop suction and hope to never have to do one. But I am glad to have the information if needed. I have done lot's of tracheal suctioning.

Margaret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jenfer said:


> I'm at the point where I don't know who the "recipient" being referred to here is, but in case it is me, let me note for the record that I do know how not to "get the catheter in the airway."




Hi Jeniffer, all...


As far as I recall, my only implied 'recomendation' of 'Crop Suctioning' was directed to Jennifer, in her Thread, for Jennifer, because she is obviously an experienced and well equipped practioner, who has skills and apparatis far in excess of my own, and who, like me, has been countinancing Pigeons with life threatening Crop stasis issues, where, without intervention, the over-filled Liquid-filled Crop could 'gush' by the Bird's unwitting contraction of the Crop's muscle-tension out of shyness, nerves, spasms, or just be being touched at all.



Such a Bird could be killed by merely trying to gather them up TO go to the Vet.



And I explained in my missive at the time, about how to note and respect the Trachea, the positiojn of the Trachea during the phases of the proceedure, the positioning of the Bird, the Catheter 'end' and all the rest, for the proceedure to be conducted 'safely and with kindness.


There is nothing about this proceedure which hurts the Bird or would hurt the Bird.


And if a practioner were to do it badly, then forgive me, but, they then have NOT done "this" proceedure at all, but instead, are doing or have done something else.


Any actual "proceedure" IS 'how' it is done, in detail and in respect to the 'details', is the observances of the 'ritual' and fine points and the 'quality' of what is done, and NOT merely that some perfunctory or inept imitation is imposed or enacted or forced.


Without the emotional maturity which permits clearity and quality of thought, and perspecuity, none of this will be comprehensible.



Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, out of pure curiosity, how many crop suctions have you done?


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I am definitely in favor of one becoming more educated as well.
> 
> Advising an inexperienced person to perform a particular procedure with one, or maybe two, posts as training does not constitute proper education, IMO.
> 
> Cindy


Cindy,
What constitutes a proper education? Whenever a person with knowledge assists another without, that knowledge gets transferred. This is education. Proper or not, somebody learned something in the exchange. How would you propose helping someone inexperienced if you were called on to assist them? Let's say it is a situation with no other options available but your help. Would you make the judgement call to withhold information simply because they were inexperienced and might make a mistake? I think you may be confusing two issues. One is gaining education through the use of a forum or formal education where cases are discussed and treatments debated. The other is hands on assisting those without knowledge get through some difficult moments to save a bird's life. They, IMO, are both proper education.

Margaret

Margaret


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Heh, 6 months ago, feeding a baby bird was an advanced procedure for me. Then I realized I could use my old college years of experience as a nutrition and sports therapist on my birds, it got lots easier. (Had to take that off the dusty brain shelf.)


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Charis,

Let me take these issues you raise one by one as you posted them.

QUOTE=Charis;304223]Margaret and Nona... I was quoting the rules. "Qualified" doesn't mean "Certified Avian".
Not all vets are as expensive as NYC and fortunately NYC has Animal General.

Finding a vet who will treat birds, is not an easy task. I live in a ruralish area of So. California. There are many vets in town. NONE will treat birds, even on an emergency basis. Even if I could afford it, which I can’t most of the time, my closest bird vet is 25 miles away and only open for office hours. There is NO emergency treatment for a bird unless I go nearly all the way to San Diego. There is a licensed rehabber in the county. Just try and reach them. I’ve lived here three years and have yet to have them answer the phone. They are the resource that is listed for this area.

2]Quote=Charis This is not an on-line veterinarian clinic and we are not veterinarians nor licensed to practice veterinary medicine. Many of us rehabbers aren't licensed and I SUSPECT there may be POTENTIAL LEGAL LIABILITY to the OWNERS and MODERATORS of this forum for our actions and maybe even the MEMBERS. I am aware there is a disclaimer but that doesn’t prohibit someone from taking legal action if they decide they want to. I will stop at that because I am not qualified to offer legal advice although I am knowledgeable in Oregon Real Estate Law. 

No we are not an on line veterinarian clinic, nor are any of us licensed to practice veterinary medicine that I know of. But we are a rescue/rehab site and as such offer assistance for all kinds of rescue/rehab situations. In the USA, as long as we do not represent ourselves as licensed practitioners and charge for our services, which would be fraud, what we do is legal. All that is posted is information. If one wants any of the technical information that is posted here they are free to buy the texts on veterinary medicine and read it. It is not restricted information. Freedom of speech allows us to speak our minds in public in any way we want. If that weren’t true, all of the* how to make a bomb* sites would have been arrested and shut down long ago. There is no law I know of that prohibits treating one’s own livestock in the USA. If it were illegal, the pigeon supply sites such as Foy’s and JEDDS would not be selling the medications they do or the texts that they do. They also sell splints for fractures and slings to immobilize birds for rehab along with various immunizations and other supplies for same. Their customers are not, for the most part, working with their vets to treat their birds.

As you point out, there is a disclaimer. It is up to each individual to decide whether or not to act on any information they may obtain here. It is their sole responsibility if they choose to act. It is true that we are a litigious society. IMO that is not a reason to limit information exchange.


]Quote=Charis Some of the invasive procedures that have been advised and guided through this forum have been extremely invasive...PAINFUL to the bird and without the use of any kind of anesthesia and resulting in the ultimate death of the bird, which is why the rules were more defined.

I am aware of the reasoning behind some of the rules The use of anesthesia is another topic that perhaps should be debated in some future thread. It is my opinion that some may be uninformed about it’s use and place in treatment. But this is not the time or place. I do know that the rules came about because of concerns and that they were not put in place without consideration. I have no quarrel with concern about a bird’s welfare. I do have concerns about the rules themselves and their effect on this community.


Quote=Charis I would say this...
34] As members, we have agreed to abide by these rules.

Yes we have. But that isn’t what is happening. Some members can post rule- breaking material without any
objection whatsoever. Others are quickly told they are overstepping the bounds. Over the past year I have seen this happen a number of times. I have posted rule breaking material. No one spoke to me about it either on line or privately. As a matter of fact it was encouraged by others, yourself included. But it technically violated all the rules. The treatment was invasive, extremely painful and in the realm of veterinary medicine without a doubt. There was no other option and I would do it again if needed. And that is the crux of my whole thread here. I obtained information and support from other forum experts who were more knowledgeable than I in many respects. The end result was a healed bird. If I had followed the rules, I would not have the information I needed. My bird might have suffered much more and needlessly. Nor would others have encouraged me through a difficult rehab or shared what they knew with me. If we are going to invoke the rules, then it should be across the board. I should have been shut down just as others have been and information restricted. If we are going to have these rules about what can and cannot be discussed, then there should be a fair and equal enforcement of those rules toward everyone who posts here, or we should change the rules to allow more freedom of discussion about treatment. 

The bottom line for me is the welfare of the birds we assist. It crosses my mind that here we are in a country that still allows pigeon shoots in some areas, the poor victims are thrown in the trash still alive in many cases, with no help for them, even on the basis of cruelty to animals laws. They are legally killed in horrible ways by exterminators all across both this country and others. Here on a site that is devoted to pigeons and their welfare, there is discussion of what can and can’t be shared information to rescue and rehab them with rules to limit information exchange. I find that absurd. Does no one else? 

Margaret


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

I enjoy this thread, and feel everyone is debating openly and without insulting others, and i think that is great. Many times anything that is a controversial subject here, well, people get really mad and the thread gets closed, never to be resolved.
I would have to say though, i am one of those people that never paid much mind to pigeons, until i found the one that brought me here. Usually i sent all hurt animals to animal rescue, and everytime i called to check, they were euthanised. Somehow i thought this bird had a french fry stuck in his mouth, it was canker, and he died the next morning. 2 hours later 2 packages came in the mail, packages that were sent overnight express from 2 members here, Reti and Pidgey. I thought to send the stuff back, but then decided i would use the supplies to help another bird, another day..
I would have never helped as many birds as i have if it wasnt for this site, and many more of those birds WOULD of died for sure if i wasnt taught how to tube-feed, and i learned because i HAD TO right then and there, or the bird would have died. A member here taught me, over the phone, and was very careful to make sure i wasnt in the airway, made sure i put a drop of water over tube to make sure i wasnt in the airway, then under water completely to double check.
I would have never learned any other way, just wouldnt of happened.
Ok, now, i obviously think a vet is the number one, best option. I didnt have a ride for a long time, most vets were out of my reach, and honestly, i am broke, just cant afford it. I have since found a vet, but he is far away, i have to borrow my roommates car, so not only does my schedule have to allow it, but his schedule too. Also, last year i missed a few classes anytime a pigeon or other animal emergency came up, and i was always putting that animal first, my grades suffered because of it. 
I believe every situation is different, and i believe it is helpful to be able to openly discuss such procedures. Some people that are totally new to pigeons come here and post, saying they'll take the bird to a vet, so everyone helps find a vet, some cant afford it, so everyone posts what else can be done. 
We all have different opinions on what can and should be done, and we should be able to discuss it without everyone getting all worked up and saying mean things, we should be able to DEBATE it openly...


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> And, Margaret, I am not your adversary in this matter. I believe in an open forum where treatment options can be discussed. However, because this is an open forum, those members who don't agree that certain topics should be discussed have as much right to speak their opinion as you have. I also have the right to speak up when I believe members should be cautioned about the dangers of a procedure. I think we need to be respectful of each member's opinion.


Maggie,

I have never felt that you were an adversary. And you are absolutely right about members having the right to voice their opinions. If I have given the impression that I don't recognize their right to speak, I apologise, as that is certainly not my intent. On the contrary, I want more open discussion, not less. At the present time I do not believe we are truly an open forum.

I have never been against voicing cautions and feel that some procedures should have caution stamped all over them. I also feel there is a big difference between voicing caution and the banning of discussion. I am trying to be respectful of the opinions of others whose beliefs may differ from mine. My intent in all this is to promote debate about the rules, how they are applied and the issue of having a more open forum regarding complex treatment approaches. From my other posts you know by now where I stand on these issues. I am only voicing my own opinion and try to support it with reasoned explanations. It is my hope that if someone voices an opinion that differs from mine they will offer an alternative solution other than to just say they don't agree. I believe in a consensus process if at all possible. Unfortunately it is tedious to get to the point where opposing views can come to consensus.Hope springs eternal however.

Margaret


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Debating this in generalities is kinda' tough. The bottom line is that you're never going to get in any trouble by not doing anything but writing epitaphs and condolences. Conversely, there's a very high probability that you'll get into all kinds of trouble by helping too much, mostly when you fail and rather less when things turn out okay. Jazaroo called it "the pointy end of the stick" and he was in no way, shape or form blind to some of the stuff that goes on around here in our little corner of the Internet.

I'll say it here and now that the grief that other members have piled onto me in particular over a very few specific cases means virtually nothing to me compared to some other specific cases wherein I felt that I failed: Brad's Henny, Kathleen's Lullaby, BeanTree's Abigail... Henny and Lullaby because they both should have been on a Tetracycline, and Abigail because I should have forced the issue to get her on Metronidazole far earlier. There are others.

Charis, in your list you specifically state a point:



Charis said:


> 3] Some of the invasive procedures that have been advised and guided through this forum have been extremely invasive...PAINFUL to the bird and without the use of any kind of anesthesia and resulting in the ultimate death of the bird, which is why the rules were more defined.


Many of us know exactly which case you're referring to. That actual thread was locked and expunged from the records so exact quotes cannot be used this time around. However, a later thread wasn't:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=21836

...in which Moxie explained further what likely happened that possibly, and more likely probably, caused the death of the bird. As such, the exact wording of that point seems to me to be unfair since the actual cause of death isn't clear at all so I've always felt that she deserved the benefit of the doubt. Did she get it? Not from all as is clearly plain to see in the cited example thread and that was... if... memory... serves... only the tip of the iceberg.

At the time, it appeared like the insinuation was that Moxie had fabricated a cover story for why the bird died in order to clear herself and me. I sorta' doubt that anyone would step forward and own up to that accusation but it could happen. It had all the smack of a "he said, she said" kind of deal, afterall. Now, for a person to make up such a cover story, let's just imagine the kind of character it would take: deceptive... out for glory but unwilling to accept blame... politically motivated...

So. I invite anyone to take a quick tour through that kid's life's journey as it relates to pigeons and this site in order to gain some perspective as to her character:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=6828&starteronly=1

Thread after thread after thread of selfless abandon in order to save pigeons and even other animals and even a _goose_ for crying out loud! A goose that she kept in her own room for several days in an apartment that she can be thrown out of at any time with nowhere else to go. And all while she's putting _herself_ through college.

I'm sure that this post will embarrass her to read, but an example is the only way I know to put this debate in any kind of meaningful perspective in my own mind--to consider the motives and passion that we all have for doing this work. The need in the world out there is virtually infinite compared to the miniscule size of our little forum here. We all have different talents and abilities to bring to this party and we're all human, which means we'll also bring our frailties and faults as well. It is generally not in our nature to deal openly with our own dark sides and so sometimes we hide that with bickering. But the core truth to the reason behind this entire debate is far wider and more encompassing than simple and sterile legalities and logic: it's about our lives' passion and what we do with it as it relates to others' lives' passion and what they do with theirs.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> Cindy,
> 
> *How would you propose helping someone inexperienced if you were called on to assist them?* Let's say it is a situation with no other options available but your help.
> 
> ...


My judgement call would depend on the particular situation at hand. 
As I've said many times, each situation is unique & they all have their own set of circumstances. 
What I might do in one situation may be entirely different in another.

Cindy


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> One of the things I would like to have on the forum are resource (stickies) threads that deal with specific things like "how to treat canker"; "how to treat a bird that has been poisoned"; how to treat a bird that has been burned"; etc. that detail these procedures. We have numerous threads that deal with a variety of topics but it requires a great deal of searching to find them. I know each individual case is different but basic guidelines would be helpful.


I agree, but minus the big words out of the medical dictionary. Half the time I don't get it and they just make the instructions longer.

Doing a search on this site is a nightmare.

"advanced procedures" that is risky. The individual who is giving the advice and how they type it and then you have the person who is taking the advice and how they interpret it. There are a few examples on this site on how that worked out and some are not good.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

IMO - this thead is overdue and whose time has come.

Reminds me of a boil being lanced. 

Constructive cards on the table? About time...

With a forum this size, there are bound to be disagreements. We have a unique group of caring, informed, gifted and dedicated members.

Working together to help and advise members and their beloved birds has always been the goal. Sometimes, however, that can mean accepting or at least trying another point of view. 

One other thought: keep instructions simple and to the point, at least in the beginning. Saves repetitive questions and frustrations from the person who wants help _*fast*_ and _*now*_ but has no knowledge about the birds. One can always elaborate if the person seeking help indicates that their knowledge and/or skill level is more advanced.

Shi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

When it comes down to it we don't own the forum. Carl, who used to own it drew up the rules. There were sound reasons for his decison. 

Terry as administrator, and the other moderators, have been appointed to uphold the forum rules. Perhaps it would be better if anyone considering that the rules about invasive procedures have been breached should report it as a bad post and leave it to Terry, the moderators and (if they care to be involved, which I doubt) the owners to decide off line what to do about it.

Maybe Terry and the Moderators could maintain a a sticky on which procedures have already been classified as invasive to avoid these endless arguments coming up again and again.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

little bird said:


> I would like to hear what others really would have done in a particular situation. For instance.....the last bird Phil had with the throat obstruction. Phil described the problem very well....
> 
> *it would be very interesting if some of the other rehabbers on the forum would describe in detail what approach they would have taken if the bird had been taken to them. *
> 
> ...


Nona,
My involvement in this disucssion isn't about what I would do if a bird were presented to me personally.

My involvement is focused on my concerns about one encouraging a person, who is *unfamiliar with pigeons*, to perform an advanced procedure after reading instructions in post or two on the Internet.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

little bird said:


> Cindy....that's kinda what every one is saying....''judgement call would depend on the particular situation''
> 
> I would like to hear what others really would have done in a particular situation. For instance.....the last bird Phil had with the throat obstruction. Phil described the problem very well....it would be very interesting if some of the other rehabbers on the forum would describe in detail what approach they would have taken if the bird had been taken to them.
> Anyone care to reveal what they would have done???? AZWhitefeather?? Pidgey??? Lady Tarheel?? Margarret?? TAWhatley?? Cyro51?? Anyone ???


I don't mind responding. It would have gone to the vet and I would have followed her instructions.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

I had been intending to respond to this debate more fully, but for now, let me address this one point:



> My involvement is focused on my concerns about one encouraging a person, who is unfamiliar with pigeons, to perform an advanced procedure after reading instructions in post or two on the Internet.


I don't know whether this comment is directed at me personally or more meant for the general public, but let me state for the record that I am neither unfamiliar with pigeons nor was I performing procedures "after reading instructions in a post or two on the Internet." 

I'm not sure why one would make the conclusion that I am a person "unfamiliar with pigeons." Let me state for the record that I am a licensed wildlife rehabilitator (although in my state, being licensed admittedly does not mean much other than having passed a written exam, going on an in-person interview, and sending in patient logs and submitting to an annual facility inspection--but I'm stating it because I suppose for some people out there, this credential will carry a lot of weight).

It was *I* who stated that I had wished that I had done a second crop suction at home (the first one was not performed by me, although I was present) after the bird appeared to have aspirated enough to cause instant death after being handled to give Baytril. I did not interpret any posts here as anyone encouraging me to do the crop suction--after all, by that point, it was already too late for that bird.

I understand being cautious about doing procedures. But a few people have brought up the valid (to my mind, anyway) point of what to do in a case like this where there is no access to an avian vet, or the cost is prohibitive? Is it your opinion that it would be better to let the bird die rather than to intervene to try to save the bird's life (by doing a crop suction, in this case)?

Jennifer


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jennifer,

I believe the point being made was a general one, and was not even in reference to yourself. From what I can see, the quote was simply an example.

John


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jennifer, the majority of new members who come on the forum asking for guidance or help have no experience. There is no way any of us knew that you are a licensed wildlife rehabilitator because there is nothing in your profile or prior posts to indicate your experience with birds in general.

Nona, I'll expand a bit on my earlier comment. I realize I am in a unique situation in many ways. I belong to a wildlife group dedicated primarily to saving both mammals and birds; I have attended numerous classes dedicated to this cause; I have also been a licensed wildlife rehabilitator until I let our license expire because we were unable to do both pigeons and songbirds; I have access to several very good veterinarians (one within one mile of our home) and when they are closed, an after hours clinic that helps us; I have the medicine and supplies to do the job.

Because of those many resources, I have not had to do "advanced" procedures although I question exactly what that encompasses because we have done many, many things I never knew I could do. We can set legs, wings, give medicine, orally or otherwise, etc. Although we have cared for hundreds of pigeons, we have never encountered canker to the degree we sometimes see on the forum. Doves, yes, and in those cases, we use the dribble method for both food and medicine.

We were initially trained on how to feed birds a specific way and that is not by tube feeding. Our way has been very successful and I have seen no reason to change although I may now try to be trained how to do it just so I will know but we have never had a need for it. As for suctioning a crop, I can count on one hand the number of pigeons that needed this and they were taken to a vet.

As to your core question, that is kinda like asking me if I could swim the Atlantic when I can't swim to begin with.  However, if faced with that situation, the first thing I would do is try to find someone who could help me. If I couldn't find anyone, I would do everything I could to make the bird comfortable but I WOULD NOT attempt to suction out the contents of a crop. That would be totally irresponsible on my part and could result in my causing the bird to die. I realize the bird you are hypothesizing may die, but to do a procedure that may not even be necessary to begin with is totally irresponsible, IMO.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> *My involvement is focused on my concerns about one encouraging a person, who is unfamiliar with pigeons, to perform an advanced procedure after reading instructions in post or two on the Internet.*
> 
> Cindy





jenfer said:


> * *I don't know whether this comment is directed at me personally or more meant for the general public, but let me state for the record that I am neither unfamiliar with pigeons nor was I performing procedures "after reading instructions in a post or two on the Internet." *
> 
> ** *I'm not sure why one would make the conclusion that I am a person "unfamiliar with pigeons." *
> 
> Jennifer


Sorry I wasn't on this post immediately. I'm trying to get the aviary cleaned in between postings.

* No. The comment wasn't directed to you 'personally', Jennifer.
I'm speaking in the general sense.

There have been questionable incidents, IMO, that have taken place for quite some time. It has nothing to do with you 'personally'.

** I don't believe I made any conculsion that you were a person unfamiliar with pigeons.

You stated:
_Originally Posted by jenfer 
I'm at the point where I don't know who the "recipient" being referred to here is, but in case it is me, let me note for the record that I do know how not to "get the catheter in the airway."_

I replied:
My reference to that was, *I didn't know if you fall under the category of one who is familiar with a pigeon's anatomy or one who isn't*.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

little bird said:


> * *Perhaps I'm assuming too much. *
> 
> I am assuming that an advance procedure is when the patient is in a life or death situation. I'm assuming the questioner is someome somewhere in nowhereland with no outside help except for a computer.
> 
> ...


* I don't know. Perhaps. 

I will say this:
** I've been a member for six years & did, previously, rehab on a low impact level. I've had my share of severe cases. Some recovered. Some passed away in my hands before I could even dial the rehabber. Those that I felt were out of my league, went to our local rehabber. 

*** Oh, I've been faced with situations where I felt advanced procedures were warranted, however, I also have enough sense to know I'm not qualified to perform any & I certainly have enough sense not to instruct or encourage someone else to perform them. 
Out of the 6200+ posts under my 'wing', you won't find one where I condoned, encouraged, instructed or took part in the performance of, what I feel were, advanced procedures. 

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

little bird said:


> Well....that went no where.


Sure it did: now we all know that I don't have enough sense to know what not to do!

Pidgey


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Margarret said:


> Charis,
> 
> The bottom line for me is the welfare of the birds we assist. It crosses my mind that here we are in a country that still allows pigeon shoots in some areas, the poor victims are thrown in the trash still alive in many cases, with no help for them, even on the basis of cruelty to animals laws. They are legally killed in horrible ways by exterminators all across both this country and others. Here on a site that is devoted to pigeons and their welfare, there is discussion of what can and can’t be shared information to rescue and rehab them with rules to limit information exchange. I find that absurd. Does no one else?
> 
> Margaret



I agree. To quote "Triple X" "Don't be a dork, Richard, It's all the education we got" and I don't think the birds are checking our credentials as we bend down to give them a chance thousands of them never get. Imagine, one can even look up my frustration last year as my search for an avian vet didn't yeild any affordable emergency options. Yet, the bird is fine now. Thanks to Pimafix and fishzole.
I totally agree that surgery is for doctors. On the other hand, my dad was a doctor and taught his children some procedures on our cats. Poor felines never saw a real vet, even after losing a tail-tip to a car peeling out on it. I'm familiar with the full medical kit and sterilization procedures, but I'm also not in a hurry to use that knowledge again. 
I have really been enjoying this thread, by the way.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

little bird said:


> Perhaps I'm assuming too much. I am assuming that an advance procedure is when the patient is in a life or death situation. I'm assuming the questioner is someome somewhere in nowhereland with no outside help except for a computer. I'm assuming that the responder from this forum is an old timer in the rehab business. I'm assuming the Pigeon Talk members who have never been faced with the need for an advanced procedure would have enough sense to stay out of the discussion.
> When such a scenario is presented involving an obstructed throat, for example....say the rescuer is me.....what would each of the well known rehabbers here on PT tell me to do......besides go to a qualified avian vet. Remember, I am equiped with only a computer, such household items that are common, and a brain.



Hi Little Bird, 


What are being Catagorized as 'Advanced Procedures' to me, have to include 'Tube Feeding', 'Crop Suctioning', debriding and irrigation of puncture or other injurys when these are severe, getting special Catheters through Throat Blockages, Suturing, Poison Birds, getting foreign objects out of Crops, setting broken Legs or Wings, 'Slings', care of Infants and Babys, dealing with any severe injuries, infections, giving 'Injections'...rehydration procedures whether Oral or sub-Q...and other things I can not think of at the moment also...which do not per-se involve 'Life Threatening' scenarios, but can...or, involve delicate and particlar things the Bird needs to get well or recover or to stay alive or to relieve troublesome discomforts or as a part of a necessary treatment for underlieing issues.

To my mind, any compromised Bird is in a 'Life or Death' situation, which varies only on time-line and circumstance, from being very present-time threats to alleviate, to leisured threats which will kill them over days or weeks, unless intervention to address the issues is forthcoming.



Some of these I do well, some 'so-so', some I do not do because I do not feel ready to do them and or have not invented ways of Holding the Pigeon to do them comfortably.


You are welcome to anything I know about or am learning about or which I can explain how I do along with rationalle, on the basis of my own experience...you are welcome to my conjecture, ideas or brain storming, any time, for any Pigeon issues you have going...which of course is no guarentee I will have anything useful, but if I do, you are welcome to it.


As I understand it, part of the question we are facing, are the concerns about such discussions being permitted to occur at all, since there are questions, moral or other, about implied or explicit instruction or advocacy between lay people, about procedures which have to be done correctly and with attention to details, which are both potentially lethal or injurious to the Bird if done badly or wrongly, as well as potentially embarassing morally, if or when they are done badly or with disappointing result, for even right or correct instruction having been given or discussed.


Given there is often no other recourse than for a lay practioner or private person who has margainal preparedness and background, in situations where 'emergency' procedures or care is needed for a Bird, the question then is how to countinance this against interpretations of who is responible and how, for errors, mishaps or disappointments which could result.


Of course, we can all recall many instances on Pigeontalk where truely Heroic 'procedures' were done by people who had no other recourse, and who had never done anything with a Bird before, and things turned out wonderful.


None of this is a problem for me...but, I respect that others are confused about how to make their own Peace with it.



Anyway...


Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Phil, *out of pure curiosity, how many crop suctions have you done*?





pdpbison said:


> What are being Catagorized as *'Advanced Procedures' *to me, have to include 'Tube Feeding', *'Crop Suctioning'*, debriding and irrigation of puncture or other injurys when these are severe, getting special Catheters through Throat Blockages, Suturing, Poison Birds, getting foreign objects out of Crops, setting broken Legs or Wings, 'Slings', care of Infants and Babys, dealing with any severe injuries, infections, giving 'Injections'...rehydration procedures whether Oral or sub-Q...and other things I can not think of at the moment
> 
> * *Some of these I do well, some 'so-so', some I do not do because I do not feel ready to do them and or have not invented ways of Holding the Pigeon to do them comfortably.*
> 
> ...


Phil,
* With regard to 'crop suctioning', what category does your experience fall under? 
*Well, so-so or don't do*?

Cindy


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I would like to see a sticky, or a separate section, with a *GLOSSARY* of pigeon terms.

This glossary would/could have variations in spelling (British English versus American English,) foreign language spellings, generic and trademark or registered names and so on.

Common references would be useful, also, such as the pigeon equivalent to the human knee and human elbow. The throat and the esophagus. 

Technical and scientific terminology, coupled with language and description an 8-year-old can understand. (The _esophagus_ is a "passage" or "tube," etc.).

I asked a vet I brought several pigeons to about *avian vets in Germany*. He told me there were none. Any vet who relied solely on birds for his practice would go out of business. Every vet had to learn something about birds in his training. He was pretty good with birds, but not perfect. He knew a lot more than I knew. He did make a couple of mistakes, as we all do. And I did come across a vet who specialized in racing pigeons and has the best pigeon clinic in Germany, the _Taubenklinik_ in Essen, Germany. 

Incidentally, a few weeks ago I came across a "pigeon lady" who was watching the pigeons and saying "_Mein Kinder, mein Kinder"_ ("my children, my children"). I asked if she fed them, and told her I ad rescued some pigeons. She asked me what did with them. I told her that I took the severely injured ones to _Taubenklinik Essen_. She abruptly turned away from me and walked quickly away. 

I was puzzled by her behavior. The next day it occurred to me that she had probably misunderstood what I intended to say, because _essen_ also means "to eat." 

Such is life. Maybe I'll see her again and be able to talk to her long enough to say there was probably a misunderstanding.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Phil,
> * With regard to 'crop suctioning', what category does your experience fall under?
> *Well, so-so or don't do*?
> 
> Cindy



Do well...







No 'Cindy', the reason I have tried to share information which I had worked out on this procedure, is not so I will then go and do it badly, but, so it can be done well and safely and with kindness, and because I will then do it with safety and kindness...and because since I can do it with safety and kindness,I elected to share the points and observances which can allow others to understand how it can be done with safety and kindness.




Not one instance has ever been detailed here of any Vet or anyone else doing it well, or informedly, or, if they had, the person telling about it had no 'details' to offer.


Hence, no one here had any information or integrated observations for learning about it rationally.


All anyone had, far as I ever saw, was blind prejudice and fear and confused hear-say..and a few very abbreviate descriptions about how to do it badly, dangerously, where the Pigeon would could well end up being injured or dead because of it.


I write a casual missive in which I set out points and observances and rationalle, where it can be done safely and well, whether one is a Vet or or a lay person experienced enough to be able to at least read and understand, and identify the key features of the Pigeon's physiology, and I do not recall you having found anything to say about the quality of information, only, that I gather you have reacted soehow not positively. 


The missive could be printed out for one to bring to their Vet, ( or I could write a better version which would print more neatly, ) in order to allow the Vet or 'Licenced Regabber' or whoever, to review the procedure, which could have saved quite a few Pigeons by now, instead of the Vet or other operative dumping 'Barium' into the Crop or making other ghastly and naive faux pas.


The information stands on it's own merits.

It is information.

It's purpose, is to inform.

If you want to critique the information, please do so.




Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Phil,
> * With regard to 'crop suctioning', what category does your experience fall under?
> *Well, so-so or don't do*?
> 
> Cindy





pdpbison said:


> Do well...
> 
> 
> *How 'bout you? Is there anything you do well?
> ...


Phil,
I asked you a SIMPLE question. You gave me a SIMPLE answer.
You revision was totally uncalled for.

*NOW*, we have two options here, either* YOU* remove your stupid, insulting & unnecessary comments from this post or *I WILL*. 

It's your choice.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> Phil,
> I asked you a SIMPLE question. You gave me a SIMPLE answer.
> You revision was totally uncalled for.
> 
> ...




Okay 'Cindy'...

I revised it.


And just for the record, there were NO insulting 'comments' in it, but I gladly changed it so suit your comfort level of candor.



Phil
l v


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

*Another point of view.*

I have been reading this thread for days now. I am an absolute novice and may be speaking out of turn now. Although I am totally not qualified to comment on any of the procedures discussed here, I think you guys are loosing your perspective as to the original purpose of the thread.

I fully believe in the exchange of ideas, it is very interesting & informative reading, however I don't see where anything has been accomplished here with regard to:

Censor/or not to Censor

What is safe/What is not is safe

Who is qualified/Who is not qualified

et cetera, etc, etc, etc.

No conclusions have been drawn and now it appears to have become, PERSONAL & HEATED.

All of you Pro's that are involved in this discussion have a world of knowledge and experience that the rest of us depend on and truly need.

I have been replying to simple posts thismorning giving advice on really small issues as that is all I may be qualified to do so. I have not seen any replys to those threads from most of you as it appears that you are expending your precious energies and wasting your world of knowledge going at eachother.

Chill out Guys!!!! We need you back in our world of inexperience.

Thanks to all of you for all you do!!!!

I hope I have not been to presumptuous here.

Regards,
Louise


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Cindy, 



Well, lets talk about you for a while...lets find out more about what you do, in a nice way, and, enough about me for the time being, Okay?


I will be glad to enjoy my turn again soon...


Seems only natural, that in a context of sharing, both parties will have equal chance to enjoy some Limelight for their accomplishents.



Now, as I recall, the other day, you said all you ever do, or WOULD do, if a Pigeon is sick or injured, is that you would take them to a Vet, and, that you can provide some basic suportive care, and that you personally do not do anything in the way of any actual procedures of any kind...and that you were very adaent about this as how you feel it should be for everyone else too.

No one should ever do anything but basic supportive care, unless they are a 'Vet' or a 'Licensed Rehabber', in your view and philosophy...is what I understood you to say.


If I misunderstood this, now is a good time for you to clear it up, and, elaborate for us on what you actually do.

What kinds of things do you do?

Or do believe no one but a Vet or Licensed rehaber 'should' ever 'do' anything past basic supportive care?


And, since you asked me to evaluate my own example of Crop Suctioning, let me as you also, to tell us about a couple things you feel you do 'well'? or, which you feel you do 'so-so'?

For me, setting Broken Wing Bones is all tolled, something I feel I only am able to do 'so-so'...where, say, one in two will fly well once all is healed.


The bets Vets I tried here in town, are sub 'so-so' with around one in five being able to fly well once all is healed.

So there is one of my 'so-so' ones.



Is this okay to ask?



Phil
l v


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Phil

Your post was insulting and belittling and it is quite evident to anyone who isn't of the view that 'Phil walks on water'. Forget the BS. It isn't the first time you've edited out comments when cautioned. On one occasion you even deleted a post then tried to claim you never wrote it in the first place! You've got a bad history here, and it isn't getting any better. 

This is a virtual world, and for most of us, most other people in it are personally unknown as are their credentials for whatever advice they offer. Yet you seem to consider people asking a question about your experience of this crop-suctioning technique as an affront. Why do you see a perfectly civilized question as an insult, and feel it has to be answered with venom? You have been referring to a procedure which many people have likely never even heard of (including me - but I'm not a rehabber). Why do you feel it is unreasonable for people to want to know if you have actual hands-on experience of it? Just who are you to think that no-one on this forum should ever dare to question you?

We are just going round the loop again here, aren't we. Someone questions what you write, or whether it is backed up by actual experience and you lash out. Someone does not remember to offer profuse thanks for your response, one among several, to a post and you lash out. Someone does not choose to take the advice you have given and you lash out. People don't, in your estimation, read your posts thoroughly enough... it just goes on and on.

I promise you, my finger was about on the terminate button and, had it not been for your acceding to Cindy's request, you would have been gone. 


John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I *DO* intend to reply. However it's going to be sporatic, as I've got a couple things going on here.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is a very sad story but it serves as an example of how a lay person - assuming that he had enough knowledge to carry out surgery to remove a tumour because he had watched his vet do it - was caught operating on a pigeon after sedating it with alcohol. That ended in tragedy for 300 pigeons. 

He wasn't a PT member, but he could have been. And if he had charm, or a way with words, members would have accepted his own assessment of his "expertise" and could have followed his advice blindly. 

This is where pigeons that were "patients" become "victims".

http://www.courttv.com/people/2005/1013/birds_ap.html

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Phil
> 
> Your post was insulting and belittling and it is quite evident to anyone who isn't of the view that 'Phil walks on water'. Forget the BS. It isn't the first time you've edited out comments when cautioned. On one occasion you even deleted a post then tried to claim you never wrote it in the first place! You've got a bad history here, and it isn't getting any better.
> 
> ...




Cindy has had aple opportunities to read or critique the information I had posted about 'Crop Suctioning' if it in fact is an interesting topic for her, and, in this, to also read my rationalle for how and why I made special emphatic mentions of details which are very important to the procedure being done safely and kindly, and in this I had clearly said, and in several occasions already, why this needs to be done with great care, attention to detail, reconition of the Pigeon's comfort and position, gentleness, and respect for the actual phusiology and comfort of the Pigeon...how to prepare ipliments so they are right for this procedure to be safe and effective...etc.



To then ask me if I do it 'well', while having shown no interest in it otherwise, with no review or coent on the inforation itself, feels insulting to me, since the it implies I would be doing the procedure sloppily or badly, which is absurd in the context of all the time and effort I put into to laying out the details of how it CAN be done well, and how NOT to do it sloppily or badly, how to have respect for the safety and care of the Bird, and how I several times said, that it should not be done by anyone who is NOT going to do it 'well'.


That was the whole point of my wishing to share the information about the procedure, so we can have a good grasp of it, so we can make sure our Vets are not botching it, and so we can understand the details and respects the proceedure must have, to be done well.



Cindy asked me to rephrase my post, and I did.




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> This is a very sad story but it serves as an example of how a lay person - assuming that he had enough knowledge to carry out surgery to remove a tumour because he had watched his vet do it - was caught operating on a pigeon after sedating it with alcohol. That ended in tragedy for 300 pigeons.
> 
> He wasn't a PT member, but he could have been. And if he had charm, or a way with words, members would have accepted his own assessment of his "expertise" and could have followed his advice blindly.
> 
> ...




Hi Cynthia, 


My own opinion, is that free discussions in which such a person could have learned NOT to do such impetuous and foolish or even ghastly things, is very much the point.


And Cindy, if such a person never even visited the Forum to ask us about what to do, however can this even be an example of anything which has anything to do with us?


I can site examples of Vets killing or harming Pigeons in botched or even uncalled for procedures also.

The Vets never joined our forum to find out about Pigeon things, or to ask us what to do, either.


Which is also some of my concern here...


If we can encourage and support reasonable learning among ourselves, and be sharing information, insight, experiences, methods, review, critique, and discussion, then we will be doing about all we can do, to improve awareness and and to improve perspecuity and judgement about such available choices as anyone may have to chose from...according to how those choices canbe recognised.


'Stickys' which people can print out to bring TO their Vets could be practical for this also...and few available Vets even have any Bird experience, so it is not as if the Vet would resent being handed a 'sticky' which is about he issue the Bird appears to have...so...


Often, there will be situations where I feel anyway, the care giver should not try giving the Pigeon more than basic supportive care and comforts...and I have said so clearly however many times now.


I do not think anyone here advocates or wishes to encourage or hear about impetious botched attempts at 'Heroics', over compassion and common sense, and even erring on the side of accepting that one cannot do everything, or, that one can not do 'anything' is fine, if that is the best choice to elect.


I have had Pigeons I could not do anything for, but to provide basic supportive care...and, in some cases, my Vet in seeing them also, could not do anything for them either.

Sometimes that is just the way it is.




We can learn also what criteria to appreciateor recognise, in order to let it guide us in deciding what we can do and should not do...and to discuss it here so that we have others feed-back about it.


I just do not see that there has to be so much strife and heavy emotion and personal animosity about all of this.


Vets botch things all the time, and the customer does not know enough to understand what was done, what went wrong, what was done badly or to eep an 'eye' on what is done...and I have talked with retired Vets who are glad to be very candid about this.


Why is it better for a Vet to take two, three five hundred dollars from someone, to botch a proceedure, than for the person to have just provided supportive care and not allowed any invasive things to be done at all?

Or, if what is done is dicussed, maybe the botched procedure could be recognised for what it was, and a new Vet located for it to be corrected in time.


These are all judgement calls people have to make...and they can only make them on the basis of their judgement.


If we encourage learning, understanding, prudence when in doubt, then, such judgement as there is or can be, will at least have something more to go on than it has otherwise.




Love, 


Phil
lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

lwerden said:


> I have been reading this thread for days now. I am an absolute novice and may be speaking out of turn now. Although I am totally not qualified to comment on any of the procedures discussed here, I think you guys are loosing your perspective as to the original purpose of the thread.



Hi lwerden,




I did frame some of the dilema a few posts back - where, in my opinion, some people are accepting of the realities of wider situations, in which is it understood, that the only care or treatment which most ill or injured Pigeons will get, or can get at all, if they get any at all, is going to be in the hands of a lay person who may or may not have very much to go on, as for what to do, and how to do it.


I think this would be obvious by now anyway, since it is the 'Bread and Butter' of the Site and of the many Threads passing through here anyway.


And, that not everyone has found a way to make their Peace with this fact...or, seems to be willing to work 'with' it realistically.





> I fully believe in the exchange of ideas, it is very interesting & informative reading,



I do also...


If my entire History here is not emblematic of that, then it is nothing at all.






> ...however I don't see where anything has been accomplished here with regard to:
> 
> Censor/or not to Censor
> 
> ...






I do not think I can resolve these questions for others...I can only resolve them for myself...and, possibly, share what rationalle I can ennunciate for review or evaluation, should it be of interest to others to discuss it.


I would like to see others resolve these questions for themselves, also...and, probably, just about everyone here already has, even if two or three people, have not.




I did what I could to encourage sensible courteous and practical, realistic interest in these maters, all along, and to recommend a compassionate acceptance of the actual realities which describe the actual practical contexts of Pigeons needing help...and how they will find it, if they find any at all.

I have never encouraged or enticed or supported anyone to do anything which I felt was beyond their skill and understanding to do, or to be impetuous in any of it, in their custody of any Bird.


I have encouraged by constant example in my own Posts, that we learn and educate ourselves, not only for what we can do, but for being able to evaluate or understand or have some familiarity and appreciation, for what a Vet may do...

And, in this, so we can all help eachother to learn more, share what we learn, share things we find out, understand more, share our failures and successes, and be more positively useful, aware, sensitive and informed for aiding and understanding these Birds...and for being a constructive 'Community' in our own right, for supporting eachother, and for benevolently supporting these Bird's situations as Pets or as Rescues.






> No conclusions have been drawn and now it appears to have become, PERSONAL & HEATED.
> 
> All of you Pro's that are involved in this discussion have a world of knowledge and experience that the rest of us depend on and truly need.



I am no 'pro'...but such knowledge or insight or methods/praxis as I have, or am gaining, and have tried to offer or share, it has sometimes caused those who resent it, or caused those who did not understand or read it cogently, to react badly to it, or react badly to it being shared at all, or, also, off and on, for some people to be trying to make things 'personal', or to be trying to invalidate me personally, in 'ad hominem' attacks, instead of simply looking at the information, discussing the information, or, critiqueing it rationally in the context in which it had been given.


We are supposed to know that the Rules of Deportment here do not allow personal or 'ad hominem' attacks and name-calling and so on...


Personally, I would advocate that our deportment here eschew personal attacks...with no 'rules' about it even needed, since we ought to conduct ourselves politely just out of self respect.






> I have been replying to simple posts thismorning giving advice on really small issues as that is all I may be qualified to do so. I have not seen any replys to those threads from most of you as it appears that you are expending your precious energies and wasting your world of knowledge going at eachother.
> 
> Chill out Guys!!!! We need you back in our world of inexperience.
> 
> ...




Good point...



Best wishes!



Phil
l v


I hope I have done some justice to your concerns.


Best wishes Louise..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Phil, you have already said (in a post that you later modified for fear of being banned) that you don't believe that the majority of PT members have the reading or comprehension ability to benefit from your posts.



I did not modify anything for fear of being 'banned'.



I modified my Post because Cindy asked me to do so.


I have never said that ' I don't believe that the majority of PT members have the reading or comprehension ability to benefit from your posts.'


But clearly, one does find tendencys of interpolation, which can effect the actuality of what I have said, and twist it into who knows what confusion or problem, which was never 'in' what I said, to then have any bearing on anything.



If someone mis-quotes you and then takes you to task for what they are putting into what you had said, or trying to make out of what you have said, this is hardly the same as if you had said it.


Are we ever going to be able to get off trying to invalidate me personally, so we can get onto the actual topic of the discussion?






> You have also said that comments made by other members who have as much or even more knowledge and experience than you do reflected *blind prejudice and fear and confused hear-say*..and that advice given by anyone other than you had been *a few very abbreviate descriptions about how to do it badly, dangerously, where the Pigeon would could well end up being injured or dead because of it.*
> 
> So, if this is your opinion of experienced PT members, how would you hope to teach someone inexperienced not to do *such impetuous and foolish or even ghastly things*
> 
> ...




What I was refering to is what had been the fear and lack of understanding among Vets and lay people both, about proper praxis for 'Crop Suctioning' and this is exactly where things had been - it was of worry to everyone, Vets included, since anecdotes about it have tended to be recountings of misfortunate episodes.




Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Boy, there are just some combinations of us that just don't deal well together (me included, by the way), huh? Maybe we oughta' have a thread where we explore why that is, kinda' like an encounter group...

Terry's told me before about the knock-down-drag-out fights in several other rehabber forums that seem to be the rule, not the exception. Considering the nature of the business, you'd think it should be the other way around but...

Are rehabbers (licensed or not) just touchy people or what? Are we competing? What's wrong with us?

Pidgey

Note: I gotta' go pick up a busted-up banded pigeon so will be out for awhile...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> I was talking about the rude post that you modified yesterday.
> 
> Cynthia




I cannot 'modify' other's Posts...


...whether I was disappointed with their 'rudeness' or not.


Only they can modify their own posts, according to their Lights.


Do you see any 'rudeness' in any posts, besides mine?


Let me say formally, that I deeply apologise for anything I have said which anyone, for any reason, felt was 'rude'.



And...that...


I would still like to see the discussion get to be about something besides me, and how I am invalid and rude and think I can 'Walk on Water' and so on.


Can we try that?


Please?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I don't mind responding. It would have gone to the vet and I would have followed her instructions.



Hi maggie, 



And if his instructions were for 'Crop Suctioning' later in the evening once the Pigeon is stronger for having rested...to remove accumulated 'foul' liquids, and for you to adminster Injections of Antibiotics on a schedule into the Keel muscles, and subsequent adminstration of Medicines and of feeding formula through a throat blockage with a very thin Catheter?


Would you do it?

According to his instruction?


And if you were later uncertain and unable to reach your Vet for a refreshser as for just what those instructions were?


Would it have been so bad if you were already familiar and had done these things quite a few times prior?




Phil
l v


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

I have taken some administrative action in order to restore some sense of civility to this thread, if only for the rest of the weekend. So let's please remember what the topic of this thread is, and get back to pigeons.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2008)

Sour Crop: A healthy bird's crop should empty completely at least once every 24 hours. When food doesn’t go the way that it should, it goes sour and starts to ferment. Sour Crop is the accumulation of undigested, fermenting food in a bird’s crop. Sour crop causes impactions, total shut down of the digestive system as well as infections. Causes of sour crop include not letting the crop empty once in a 24-hour period, diseases, bacteria, yeast and fungal infections and foreign objects. Overfeeding stretches out the crop and is also a cause for sour crop to develop.

If sour crop isn't treated in the early stages, the bird's entire digestive tract will slow down or shut down completely, depriving the animal of nutrients and fluids. Primary and/or secondary infections will continue to develop until death finally occurs. Some people add a few drops of apple cider vinegar This is added to morning feedings or waterers in order to either treat or to help the crop drain and to prevent sour crop from developing

Crop Stasis (Slow Gut Statis: Related to the sour crop is slow Crop and in advanced stages, is known as Crop Stasis or Slow Gut Statis, Although the 2 terms are used interchangeably and the causes are the same, SGS is the total shut down of the bird's entire digestive tract not just the crop. The crop is so impacted with hardened, fermenting matter, that now the entire digestive tract is being affected, either slowing down or shutting down completely. Birds with SGS are being deprived of nourishment and fluids. Death from starvation and complications from yeast or other fungus or bacterial infection will develop if left untreated

This is a medical emergency. The bird needs to have the contents of the crop removed, antibiotics administered and supportive care from an avian vet. He/she will drain and then flush the crop with a sterile solution to break up impacted matter. The procedure may have to be performed several times. The avian vet will also administer digestive enzymes, fluid for dehydration, antibiotics and anti-fungal medications to prevent or treat infections.

The procedure for reverse gavaging of a crop is very dangerous. It is up to the avian vet to determine if the bird can withstand the shock of this procedure or if the bird needs a mild sedative to prevent shock and the resulting death of organs from the procedure. In order to reduce the potential for disaster, a metal tube with a hollow ball on one end is used. This reduces the potential for perforating or otherwise damaging the very sensitive crop tissues or hitting an obstruction. A qualified vet may also use an otoscope to not only get a visual image of what the crop looks like, but to also assess the direction of the gavaging tool to ensure that it is not heading towards a dangerous area and to observe the crop after it has been emptied. 

THERE IS NO SAFE TUBING FOR A REVERSE GAVAGE. NO MATTER HOW ANYONE THINKS IT SHOULD BE SHAPED, A TUBE’S CUT IS FAR TOO DANGEROUS TO USE. IT IS ESSSENTIAL TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE DIRECTION, DEPTH AND POSITION OF THE TUBE. THE ONLY MATERIAL THAT CAN BE TRUSTED FOR THIS PROCEDURE IS AN ATTACHMENT WITH A HOLLOW METAL BALL AT THE TIP.

THERE IS NOBODY ON THIS SITE WHO HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY TO STUDY THE INSIDE OF THE CROP TO SEARCH FOR THE CAUSE FOR THE SOUR CROP, TO SWAB THE CROP IN ORDER TO USE MICROSCOPY AND DO CULTURES TO DETERMINE WHAT INFECTIONS ARE PRESENT.

THERE IS NOBODY ON THIS SITE WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO CONDUCT A BARIUM SERIES AND STUDY THE RESULTS IN AN ATTTEMPT TO LOCATE A PHYSICAL BLOCKAGE THAT MAY OR NOT BE FURTHER DOWN THE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM AND BEYOND THE CROP.

STATISTICALLY, A BIRD WITH AN ADVANCED CASE OF SOUR CROP IS LIKELY GOING TO DIE WHETHER THE CROP IS EMPTIED OR NOT. IT TAKES TIME TO DETERMINE THE CAUSE OF THIS SYMPTOM. IT TAKES TIME FOR MEDICATION TO WORK ASSUMING ONE KNOWS WHAT THE CORRECT MEDICATION IS. THEREFORE, AVIAN VETS USUALLY RESERVE THIS DRASTIC PROCEDURE FOR VALUABLE BIRDS AS A LAST RESORT AND THAT IS A FACT OF LIFE.

THIS TOPIC IS FOR PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO READ ABOUT THESE MEDICAL CONDITIONS. READING AND APPLICATION ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD ANYONE HERE ATTEMPT TO REVERSE GAVAGE AND IRRIGATE A CROP. 

EITHER LET THE BIRD DIE IN ITS OWN TIME OR TAKE IT TO A VET WHO CAN HUMANELY EUTHANISE IT.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Sour Crop - a different view on the inevitability of euthanasia*

From The Flying Vet's Pigeon. Health & Management by Dr Colin Walker:




> Sour crop
> 
> In pigeons with sour crop, at least 90% have an internal canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the glandular stomach (proventriculus). As the nodule increases in size, it squashes the windpipe making breathing difficult and blocking the crop outlet. This interferes with crop emptying, leading to bacterial infection of the crop and secondary starvation and dehydration due to the crop contents not being able to pass into the bird's system. Usually by the time the bird is noticed to be unwell, the condition has passed the point where it will respond to treatment. Deaths often occur due to the nodule growing through the stomach wall, leading to stomach contents leaking into the chest. Alternatively, the nodule can damage the heart or large blood vessels within the chest, causing sudden and severe bleeding. Such birds are often found dead on the floor with blood coming from the mouth. It is always worth attempting to treat valuable birds and I suggest :
> • Manually empty the crop
> ...


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

When it comes down to it we don't own the forum. Carl, who used to own it drew up the rules. There were sound reasons for his decison. 

Terry as administrator, and the other moderators, have been appointed to uphold the forum rules. Perhaps it would be better if anyone considering that the rules about invasive procedures have been breached should report it as a bad post and leave it to Terry, the moderators and (if they care to be involved, which I doubt) the owners to decide off line what to do about it.

Maybe Terry and the Moderators could maintain a a sticky on which procedures have already been classified as invasive to avoid these endless arguments coming up again and again.

Quote Cynthia

Cynthia, 

Forgive me for taking so long to answer your thread. I think the issue is being missed here, from my POV at least, because the rules themselves are what I am questioning. I don’t personally like the idea of running to the Mods, for it smacks too much of tattling to me. We are all adults here. We should and can communicate with each other without that kind of big brother thinking. These issues, “endless arguments” as you describe them, may seem that way to you, but are obviously of interest to some of us on this forum.

I took a look at the thread just a bit ago and see that things have disintegrated. I am sorry to see it has but can’t say I am surprised. The way the rules have been written contribute to just this sort of thing. The bottom line is I am contesting some of the “rules” I don’t agree that they are all in place for good reason. Let’s look at the what and why of the rule that limits discussion of some procedures. The why of it was to stop communication of information so that someone out there would not do something horrible to a pigeon. What was actually happening was the rule was an attempt to control someone’s behavior. Since this is cyber land, the only control it can exert is to control information. Did it accomplish it’s task. NO, IT DID NOT. The member was still free to act in any way she or he chose. All it did was suppress communication among members about procedures, give a great deal more control to moderators who, IMO are not always impartial, one of my points, and in fact the persons involved at the time were able to go about their business by email or whatever other means of communication they might desire. We have all been poorer for having that step taken by the mods and administrators. It is sort of a punish the community for the perceived wrong doing of one member. And in fact, not every member felt the person in question was guilty of wrongdoing. I for one was appalled when it was handled the way it was. It felt very kangaroo court-ish to me at the time and still does. However I was a very new member then and felt I did not have a say so. But I digress, how I felt about that particular event is not the point. The point is that the content of rehab/ rescue communication is being handled in a very arbitrary manner with the present rules only being a reference, subject to interpretation by the moderators who then can eliminate whatever they want from public view. I pointed out in a former post how a case I wrote about for some time clearly broke the rules as they are written. And I suffered no censure for it at all while another person might and has posted something, only to be told it is not appropriate for the forum.
So I might ask you and other forum members, is this the kind of forum we want? As it stands now, I can’t say it is an open forum. I would like to see it returned to it’s prior status with that ineffective invasive procedure rule retracted so that all members might learn from one another. A marvelous example just occurred. Pigeon Person just posted about crop suctioning/treating sour crop (an invasive and questionable procedure per the current rules and a violation as they are now written) and you posted a 
very informative answer. THAT is the kind of open communication we need here.


Margaret


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Larry_Cologne said:


> I would like to see a sticky, or a separate section, with a *GLOSSARY* of pigeon terms.
> 
> This glossary would/could have variations in spelling (British English versus American English,) foreign language spellings, generic and trademark or registered names and so on.
> 
> ...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

This may come across as being sarcastic, but *believe me*, that's *not* my intention.

I don't think I can be more serious with regard to what's going on.

Margaret,
You seem to have a bit of an issue with the moderators. 
Is there something in particular you'd like us to change, correct, etc?
Please let us know. 

Cindy


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

John_D said:


> Phil
> 
> Your post was insulting and belittling and it is quite evident to anyone who isn't of the view that 'Phil walks on water'. Forget the BS. It isn't the first time you've edited out comments when cautioned. On one occasion you even deleted a post then tried to claim you never wrote it in the first place! You've got a bad history here, and it isn't getting any better.
> 
> ...





Phil

Your post was insulting and belittling and it is quite evident to anyone who isn't of the view that 'Phil walks on water'. Forget the BS. You've got a bad history here, and it isn't getting any better. 
Just who are you to think that no-one on this forum should ever dare to question you?

We are just going round the loop again here, aren't we. Someone questions what you write, or whether it is backed up by actual experience and you lash out. Someone does not remember to offer profuse thanks for your response, one among several, to a post and you lash out. Someone does not choose to take the advice you have given and you lash out. People don't, in your estimation, read your posts thoroughly enough... it just goes on and on.

I promise you, my finger was about on the terminate button and, had it not been for your acceding to Cindy's request, you would have been gone. 


John,

I am very sorry to see you writing this. It is just as vituperative as anything you claim Phil wrote. I am not writing to either condemn or defend Phil. I’m writing about your public response to a pigeon talk forum member. Obviously there is some history here and you are certainly not approaching this instance with any kind of objectivity from your position as a moderator. It is a very unfortunate public display of power. I would hope that if I ever write something deemed offensive by you, that you would write me in private and discuss how it might be remedied instead of lambasting me in a public forum followed by threats.

Margaret


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, in your last post quoting Dr. Walker (which I found very good) I was puzzled by one part where he says "Usually by the time the bird is noticed to be unwell, the condition has passed to the point where it will respond to treatment". Do you think he meant ......passed to the point where it will NOT respond....?


I want to say also that I'm sorry Phil was banned. I don't always agree with him and don't believe he walks on water but I hope something can be resolved. JMO.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> This may come across as being sarcastic, but *believe me*, that's *not* my intention.
> 
> I don't think I can be more serious with regard to what's going on.
> 
> ...


A bit of an issue? I'm not sure I understand your question or what you are referring to. Could you be more specific about what you feel is "a bit of an issue".
I think I have been pretty clear about the fact that I would like the rules revised to allow more freedom of discussion about advanced procedures. I've clearly stated that I feel the Mods do not respond in a uniform manner to violations of the written rule about invasive procedures. I've given myself as an example. I feel that part of this problem is the way that the rules are written and that the moderators must use individual judgement and interpretation to do their job. Because of this, what one moderator might feel is perfectly fine, another might close down. I don't feel that is a fair process. I'd like to see some of the responsibility for having to do that off the moderator's shoulders by having a more open forum by either eliminating or revising the rule about invasive procedures. I have no personal problems with any of the moderators, other than a response I just wrote to one individual concerning a single issue. I hope I am respectful of the moderators and certainly appreciate how thankless their job is at times. I hope this answers your questions, but please elaborate on the "bit of an issue" remark so I can understand what you are responding to.

Margaret


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, am very sorry to see Phil banned. I think very highly of Phil and his relationship with his birds. And yes, I know that times on this forum have not always been peaceful. No, I don't think he's perfect but I think that the outbursts could have been handled differently. Sometimes, people will lash out because they believe so passionately in what they do. Unfortunately, anger management is not one of their fortes. 

The few times I have had negative "run-ins" with site members, I handled the situation off-site and the end result, I am happy to say, was amicable. One CAN communicate without ending up with an enemy.

Thank you pigeon person for your post about Sour Crop and Crop Stasis. The post was well written, easy to understand and quite informative. 

However, I do take exception to the following because I do not trust "blanket" statements. 

No one really knows if the following statements are true. How do we know there are not Vets or other researchers who check our site who ARE qualified...just not "officially" registered? AND, how do we know there are not those who ARE able to perform these procedures or plan to do so. However, not being "licensed" officially will prohibit them from posting on the site.

*THERE IS NOBODY ON THIS SITE WHO HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY TO STUDY THE INSIDE OF THE CROP TO SEARCH FOR THE CAUSE FOR THE SOUR CROP, TO SWAB THE CROP IN ORDER TO USE MICROSCOPY AND DO CULTURES TO DETERMINE WHAT INFECTIONS ARE PRESENT.

THERE IS NOBODY ON THIS SITE WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO CONDUCT A BARIUM SERIES AND STUDY THE RESULTS IN AN ATTTEMPT TO LOCATE A PHYSICAL BLOCKAGE THAT MAY OR NOT BE FURTHER DOWN THE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM AND BEYOND THE CROP.*


Thank you, Cynthia, for your very informative post also!!

Shi


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Margarret said:


> John,
> 
> I am very sorry to see you writing this. It is just as vituperative as anything you claim Phil wrote. I am not writing to either condemn or defend Phil. I’m writing about your public response to a pigeon talk forum member. Obviously there is some history here and you are certainly not approaching this instance with any kind of objectivity from your position as a moderator. It is a very unfortunate public display of power. I would hope that if I ever write something deemed offensive by you, that you would write me in private and discuss how it might be remedied instead of lambasting me in a public forum followed by threats.
> 
> Margaret


Margaret

I do not 'claim' Phil wrote anything. What was written was written and in this instance, much (but not all) of it is there for any who chose to read it. 

You judge, as others have done in the past, from a basis of non-knowledge of the long and tedious history behind this. Thus, you will not be aware that this incident is just a repetition of many similar past incidents. You will also not be aware of the emails which we receive from other members, quite reasonably expecting us to take action, every time this occurs

I can assure you that Phil has indeed been requested to change his ways on the forum - privately - on numerous occasions. Indeed, I have previously written privately. I won't go into detail of the kind of responses I received. I don't think it would be appropriate, either, to go into any detail of what has transpired (or not) in the past between the moderator team and another member

The fact is, Phil has only remained due to the reluctance of the moderator team to ban anyone on a forever basis, in the hope that an individual may eventually refrain from unacceptable behavior on the forum. Unfortunately, with probably less than a handful of members over the years, it becomes a case not of what shall we do *if *this happens again, but *when* it happens again.

Now, can we get back to whatever this thread was intended to be about.

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> * *A bit of an issue? I'm not sure I understand your question or what you are referring to. Could you be more specific about what you feel is "a bit of an issue".*
> 
> ***I think I have been pretty clear about the fact that I would like the rules revised to allow more freedom of discussion about advanced procedures.*
> 
> ...


* Perhaps I'm understanding what you're talking about after reading this a second time. Sorry, it's been a very long day. 

** Yes, quite clear.

*** I don't see how having a 'more open' forum is going to take anything off the moderators shoulders.

From my perspective, I feel there are way too many procedures being done & shared on this site than should be. 
This is not an online site for verterinary school. 

Here are a just *few* examples of why I'm against this advanced procedures thing.
* Birds are being dug into & punctured without any local anesthetic (this type of medication is not readily available or kept in the home). 
* Procedures are being done without a sterile environment & equipment (which is inviting undue infection).
* Suggestions are being made to tie a birds legs & wings so he won't move while his head is being bent back to the point of touching his back & a tube is blindly being put down his throat ( I can't imagine the horror a pigeon is feeling being put in that situation).

Hasn't anyone considered what the poor bird who is undergoing these procedures is going through? 
The pain they must be enduring (just because a pigeon doesn't scream that doesn't mean they don't feel pain).
The fright they are experiencing (these are wild birds).

I relive some of the posts I've read where 'procedures' have been done & quite frankly, it makes me sick to my stomach.

These are my views & I stay steadfast on them. 

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

*A note on 'the rules'*

The rule which is being discussed is actually headed 'Surgical procedures' rather than 'Advanced procedures'. Having had the quibbling about what is 'advanced' and what is not, then I guess there will be different views on what is 'Surgical'. 

The semantics aside, the fact is there *are* rules in place, which were defined by the site *owners*. If those who put up the bucks and the time and dedication to start and maintain a site like this choose to define what is OK and what is not, on *their* site, then that is their right. 

Can we please be clear on this: the moderator team do not make the rules, nor do the moderator team retract or change the rules. We may be asked for our view on how something can best be worded, but we do not make the ultimate decision. 

Of course, if anybody wants to make the current owners an offer they can't refuse for the site - hey, they get to make their own rules 

John


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> I think I have been pretty clear about the fact that I would like the rules revised to *allow more freedom of discussion about advanced procedures*.


Big mistake, someone comes on and reads that and wow that sounds like a good thing to try. Wonderful!

I think we need some professional opinions from some Avian vets. I wonder what they would think of all this? It's bad enough with all the meds we throw around on here and now we are moving on to bigger and better things. 

Is someone here going to draw a line and stick to it? Some people you give them and inch and they take a mile. Some people like to give advise to boost their ego in my opinion and I'm really getting bored with that.

We need the basics and keep it simple. 

I honestly don't get his web-site.
This is "pigeon talk", not Avian Advance Procedures Online 101.

This is just crazy and mind boggling and I'm rambling. Sorry, but this thread is driving me nuts.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Never "see" or "hear" much from these "new" owners...how many are there?

Or, have I missed threads/postings?

Besides, weren't the rules in effect BEFORE the "new" owners came? Do these "new" owners even care about the rules? 

Haven't really seen much impact from the "new" owners...other than problems with various portions of the site...hopefully, fixed. (Growing pains?)

Shi


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Thought to Ponder from the Do No Harm Website*

We seem to be living in a world that is getting less hospitable every day. Look closely at any endeavor our species has engaged in and it appears we are unaware of the harm we do, we ignore the harm we do, we intentionally do harm for our own gain, or sadly in some cases we do harm for our own pleasure and enjoyment.




Has no one taught us to do no harm?




If we haven't been taught to do no harm, we see no harm in doing harm. We cause harm and shrug it off. We cause harm and laugh about it. We cause harm and brag about it.




Sadder still, our children bear witness to our actions and never learn to do no harm themselves. Above all else we must teach our children, by example and instruction, this basic moral principle of life.




We must begin to make better choices and treat each other, the other creatures who share this planet with us, and this planet we call home with greater respect and compassion.




We believe that the first and most basic moral law is, "Do no harm." Because we can feel pain and suffering, we can imagine the pain and suffering of others, and we can act accordingly to minimize the harm we cause.




What does "do no harm" mean? Ultimately it means to give thoughtful consideration to our actions. “Do no harm” simply means to consider how our actions may affect the world we all share, to be compassionate in our dealings with all creatures, and not to thoughtlessly despoil our planet.




Doctors are asked to “first do no harm,” why not lawyers, businessmen, religious leaders and politicians? Why not us? Why not now?




It sounds like a simple idea because it is a simple idea, but it may be effective over the long run. Will “do no harm” solve all the problems in our world? Perhaps not, but this is an effort to decrease the suffering in the world and to increase the kindness.




I hope that “do no harm” becomes that little voice that guides our actions.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Charis,

That was an absolutely beautiful post and I agree with you completely.

Margaret










Charis said:


> We seem to be living in a world that is getting less hospitable every day. Look closely at any endeavor our species has engaged in and it appears we are unaware of the harm we do, we ignore the harm we do, we intentionally do harm for our own gain, or sadly in some cases we do harm for our own pleasure and enjoyment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> * Perhaps I'm understanding what you're talking about after reading this a second time. Sorry, it's been a very long day.
> 
> ** Yes, quite clear.
> 
> ...




Cindy,

As I said very early in this thread in answer to one of your posts, you and I are 180 degrees from one another on this topic. That does not mean I don't appreciate and understand your POV, it simply means that I'm coming from another orientation. Perhaps it is because of my years in medical settings and of many conversations with vets over the years. I know for a fact that birds are dug into and punctured in the back room at vet's offices without anesthetic. The reason is very simple. Anesthetic is the most dangerous part of a treatment.(that goes for people too). As one vet told me years ago," someone brings in a bird, it looks at me and drops dead". He went on to say how he won't treat birds because using anesthetics with them is so problamatic(he meant lethal). Maybe that is why the avian vets get such big bucks, I don't know. I also know that clean technique suffices much of the time and a bunch of sterile stuff is not needed, but it depends on what is being done. I know for sure that they don't always suture using anesthetic. The kinds of procedures that you find hard to read don't affect me the same way. And it is not because I am oblivious to suffering. I just know from long experience that sometimes you have to hurt something to heal it. I'm willing to do that. For example the horrendous debriding of Loverly's burns , two months of it, every day,knowing I was hurting her each time. I had to take Maalox the whole first week cause it tied my stomach in knots to hurt her. But it had to be done. If not me, who? And we are handicapped because we can't explain to them what we are doing. Of course I am concerned about the pain and fear the birds suffer. And I know that without treatment they will suffer even more and in many cases die a painful death. The bottom line is that we all care about the birds in our care. Some of us enjoy the discussions about how to do these things so we can get better at what we do. We learn from each other. Others here feel it should not be discussed at all. We each respond from our personal experiences. I don't have the answers. I wish we could accommodate both sides of this debate. I do know that I have felt like I am living in a police state ever since that rule abot invasive treatment went into effet. I never know if I post something about a procedure if it will be deemed against the rules. So far I have not been admonished, but others have and for things I very well could have posted. I value PT. I value the people on it. I don't agree with some things people do that are generally accepted. But I don't say they are wrong, just because it causes me discomfort. Racing birds is one of them. I personally could not send birds out to fly their little hearts out over 500 miles and perhaps get attacked, or injured or end up god knows where or in what kind of agony. those lost or injured birds fall in the category I would call preventable injuries. But there are many many racers on PT and they love their birds just as much as I love mine. Who am I to judge them or tell them they are wrong to do what they do? In my mind they place that bird in just as much potential harm in what they do as someone who sutures up a wound. But suturing wounds is not generally done by the lay person and racing birds is. That is my own viewpoint, but I sure wouldn't feel right imposing it on the racing crowd. In fact I love reading about their birds and never, never doubt their sincerity in loving and caring for them.

I am pretty done with this thread. I had hoped for some rational debate. I brought up some points I felt were important to be addressed and, tried to present them in a logical way, probably to the point of tedium. I felt the general response was that people agreed with me and felt there needed to be more leeway in discussing medical issues here. You have made your position clear and it is very much opposite mine. I have no idea what position the other Mods and administrators have or who gets to vote. I'm guessing there will be a discussion. I don't know how the organization operates. I do know that you can read our PM's which I feel is a bit of a violation of privacy, but it isn't important enough IMO to make an issue out of it. I felt with more openess that the Mods would not have the burden of having to make judgement calls as often. 

So, I've said my piece for what it's worth.

Good night and God bless,

Margaret


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> Cindy,
> As I said very early in this thread in answer to one of your posts, you and I are 180 degrees from one another on this topic. That does not mean I don't appreciate and understand your POV, it simply means that I'm coming from another orientation.
> *Perhaps it is because of my years in medical settings*
> Margaret


I'm retired from the medical field.

Cindy


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

John_D said:


> Margaret
> 
> I do not 'claim' Phil wrote anything. What was written was written and in this instance, much (but not all) of it is there for any who chose to read it.
> 
> ...


You missed my point entirely. It wasn't about Phil. It was about you and the way in which you publically wrote about another member. It doesn't matter who that member was. No one, regardless of their history or behavior deserves to be torn up publically like that. I understand your frustration. I just feel that you violated the rules of conduct, in this instance, just as much as the person you accuse.

I'll be glad to get back to this thread as part of the intention was to look at the role of moderators and how posts deemed out of bounds are dealth with. You just gave an example of the way it is sometimes done. I was under the impression that Cindy was handling this particular instance, but apparently she asked you to intervene or you took it upon yourself. I don't know, and I don't care what the mechanics were. I do know that I found your manner of intervention to be unacceptable. It doesn't make me feel very comfortable as a member of PT to think that I might offend you in some way and face the same public humiliation at your pleasure.

Margaret


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> I'll be glad to get back to this thread as part of the intention was to look at the role of moderators and how posts deemed out of bounds are dealth with. You just gave an example of the way it is sometimes done.
> 
> * *I was under the impression that Cindy was handling this particular instance, but apparently she asked you to intervene or you took it upon yourself*.
> 
> ...


* You were under the *wrong* impression, Margaret. 
There is not any one particular moderator who handles any one particular instance. 
I happen to be the only moderator who has been posting in this particular thread, for the most part. 

I didn not ask John or any other moderator to 'intervene'. Even if I had, that's no one else's concern. 

* Apparently you do, because you brought it up.


Both John & Warren asked that we get back on the subject at hand. I'm going to ask as well. 

Can we PLEASE just do that. 

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*WHOA Folks! - Please Read This ..*

Moderators CANNOT read PM's .. Don't even know if I can as an Admin and don't care to or want to .. so am not even going to look and see if I can. Nuff said on that!

A few points:

1) I have personally met Phil on several occasions, and he is NOT a nut case nor otherwise mentally challenged. Does he "pontificate" here and usually post way more than needed .. YES! Is he sometimes wrong .. YES .. but then the rest of us are also sometimes wrong.

2) This thread has gone way, way south of what was intended (IMO). Some good points have been made on both sides of the "issue" (if you can clearly identify the "issue" .. then you are doing good).

3) I've been here on Pigeon-Talk for a long, long time as have a few of the rest of you. We used to be able to just share knowledge, experience, and info .. now it's a freaking federal case just about every time when it comes to difficult cases/situations.

4) We let newcomers keep birds too long when the newcomers don't know what they are doing, and we end up with very dead birds in the end result. That is a terrible shame and shame on us for letting it happen.

5) If anybody wants to sign up as a moderator .. please feel free to send me a PM .. it's a real FUN job!

6) I'm closing this thread now .. Good try Margaret .. sorry it didn't work as you intended .. Anybody that wants to, please feel free to PM or e-mail me. 

For now .. this is done.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Margarret said:


> *I do know that you can read our PM's* which I feel is a bit of a violation of privacy, but it isn't important enough IMO to make an issue out of it. I felt with more openess that the Mods would not have the burden of having to make judgement calls as often.
> 
> Margaret


I don't know how you came to that conclusion. 
I don't know about anyone else, but I can't read anyone's pms. 

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Just Reopened This One ..*

I realized I was being unfair .. have at it tonight .. I'll probably close it again tomorrowl

Terry


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> I don't know about anyone else, but I can't read anyone's pms.


Well, I can't use swear words in my PM's. It's censored and I all I get is ****** (give or take a few).


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hello Folks, 

I admit I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I see how it went south dramatically and so quickly. I feel that this happened because people aren't allowed freedom of speech and within reason here. 

Anyway, to answer your point, Yul...I am sorry, but I really did have to laugh at this comment you made.  "*what's wrong with us*"? Well, I'm not your maker nor am I better than any of you, I feel that your question is rhetorical, mostly. 

Anyone who is interested in joining another diverse group, can find us here at : http://pigeonchat.forumakers.com/index.htm

We are welcoming new members and with differing opinions. 



Pidgey said:


> Boy, there are just some combinations of us that just don't deal well together (me included, by the way), huh? Maybe we oughta' have a thread where we explore why that is, kinda' like an encounter group...
> 
> Terry's told me before about the knock-down-drag-out fights in several other rehabber forums that seem to be the rule, not the exception. Considering the nature of the business, you'd think it should be the other way around but...
> 
> ...


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> *
> * Birds are being dug into & punctured without any local anesthetic (this type of medication is not readily available or kept in the home).
> * Procedures are being done without a sterile environment & equipment (which is inviting undue infection).
> * Suggestions are being made to tie a birds legs & wings so he won't move while his head is being bent back to the point of touching his back & a tube is blindly being put down his throat ( I can't imagine the horror a pigeon is feeling being put in that situation).
> ...



Thank you, Cindy for saying this. Listening to some of the posts on here, I doubt that some people give any of this any thought. But then, that's just my opinion, but then I wouldn't work in a lab that experimented on live animals either. Sometimes, some of those posts sound pretty close. I applaud you for speaking out on behalf of the poor birds.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Thank you, Cindy for saying this. Listening to some of the posts on here, I doubt that some people give any of this any thought. But then, that's just my opinion, but then I wouldn't work in a lab that experimented on live animals either. Sometimes, some of those posts sound pretty close. I applaud you for speaking out on behalf of the poor birds.


Thank *you* as well. 

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

little bird said:


> After you have rescued and rehabbed for ten or fifteen years, after you have treated three or four thousand or maybe even more birds, maybe then you will be qualified to say what is totally unnecessary action on the part of the rehabber. A good rehabber faces up to what has to be done when the crisis presents itself. A good rehabber DOES what has to be done because she/he is the victims' only chance to survive.
> Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap. What's needed is action, and someone with enough guts to address the emergency.


Appreciate your opinion, Nona. 

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

KIPPY said:


> Well, I can't use swear words in my PM's. It's censored and I all I get is ****** (give or take a few).


It's 'automatic' censorship, as with public posts. The software used to run pigeon-talk allows for a list of words which can be pre-defined by an owner (and maybe an administrator). Those words will be replaced with asterisks, without the need for human intervention.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia, in your last post quoting Dr. Walker (which I found very good) I was puzzled by one part where he says "Usually by the time the bird is noticed to be unwell, the condition has passed to the point where it will respond to treatment". Do you think he meant ......passed to the point where it will NOT respond....?


No, his wording is correct. Basically that confirms what pigeonperson said, the pigeon will have passed the point of no return and is extremely unlikely to respond to treatment...but PP suggests immediate euthanasia or letting the pigeon die in peace, whereas Dr W says that it is worth trying to treat a valuable bird. To me, all pigeons are valuable and worth trying to save, even when the odds are so bad. JMO

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*On Phil being banned*

This may have been mentioned before, if so forgive me for repeating it or for stating the obvious if everyone has interpreted it the same
This is what Warren said:



> I have taken some administrative action in order to restore some sense of civility to this thread, *if only for the rest of the weekend*


I interpret that as a temporary ban to let things cool down. Maybe one of the moderators can clarify this?

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> No, his wording is correct. Basically that confirms what pigeonperson said, the pigeon will have passed the point of no return and is extremely unlikely to respond to treatment...but PP suggests immediate euthanasia or letting the pigeon die in peace, whereas Dr W says that it is worth trying to treat a valuable bird. * To me, all pigeons are valuable and worth trying to save, even when the odds are so bad. JMO*
> 
> Cynthia


I'm not an expert in the field of advanced proceedures rehab, but I DO agree with this.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

lwerden said:


> I have been replying to simple posts thismorning giving advice on really small issues as that is all I may be qualified to do so. I have not seen any replys to those threads from most of you as it appears that you are expending your precious energies and wasting your world of knowledge going at eachother.
> 
> Chill out Guys!!!! We need you back in our world of inexperience.
> 
> ...


Louise, I have to say that I agree with you. Here is just one example:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=28920
This person posted at 1:49 this morning. In *this thread*, (Advanced Procedures) 5 different people posted AFTER the 1:49 time, but NO ONE answered the person above about his situation. Is it a life threatening situation? Maybe, maybe not.........but when people have time to post and fight amongst themselves and beat a dead horse to death, but don't have time to answer someone who's come here for help/advise, which is at least PART of the reason we are all here...........that's just sad. 
I would expect that there's more........I'm not going to research them just to make a point. 
The point is, after 3 days, 7 pages and 103 posts, there's no end in sight to this thread............and all that anyone has managed to do is ban a member


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> Louise, I have to say that I agree with you.
> 
> * *Here is just one example:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=28920*
> ...


I believe you've posted the link to the wrong thread, Renee.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I believe you've posted the link to the wrong thread, Renee.


No, it's the right one. When I said "in this thread, 5 different people posted"...I was referring to THIS thread..........about advanced procedures........5 people posted HERE but no one posted THERE.........I see that Charis has posted since then......


EDIT: I think I fixed my last post so that it's clearer as to what thread I was talking about. I hope anyway.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Thread Topic Please....*

I understand and appreciate your interest and concern regarding this matter. But, it would be inappropriate to discuss administrative issues such as this, on this particular thread, at this point in time. 

There are privacy issues, and I think it would be in poor taste to speculate at this point, on what actions may be under consideration. And that is all I think should be said at this time. 

If anyone has concerns in regards to this, then please address them to the Moderators privately. If additional posts can not stay focused on the thread topic, then the thread itself, may have outlived it's usefulness. And in the interest of peace and harmony, may have to be closed.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

With regard to sour crop, it's not always fatal. If you have a bird that is so sick, that he can't move, his crop is so filled with fluid that just picking him up causes the fluid to spill out of his mouth and there are no droppings at all, he can't be saved. He's already into the dying process.

But if you see a bird that is apparently not well, walks over to seed but has no appetite and walks away, sits fluffed up with closed eyes AND has a volume of fluid in his crop that can't be explained by his having drank a lot of water, he may have sour crop and it may not be too late. Certainly, if you see some solid in the droppings, something is going through and there is a chance to stop this process.

What is needed is to immediately start a broad spectrum antibiotic, an anti fungal like Nystatin and an anti canker medication. If you believe in the use of Flagyl, then use that but please keep in mind that this drug only hits anerobic bacteria and protozoans then you also need an antibiotic in addition that will hit aerobic bugs. 

There has been some discussion that using apple sauce or ACV or Pepto Bismol helps. I know ACV helps as a preventative but please keep in mind that these items can only serve to temporarily reduce symptoms or help prevent sour crop they but don't attack the cause at all.

This milky white fluid in the crop is a poison and if you can get to the cause in time, the body will be able to rid itself of it on its own.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Hi Renee,

That is exactly what I was talking about. There was a serverly injured bird last night that there was no response to for over an hour and a half. I didn't have the experience to address this issue and finally had to start a new thread HELP - PLEASE - MODERATOR, and Terry the administrator finally responded to the thread. IN the meantime there were numerous postings to this endless thread. So many people chose to continue the bickering rather than helping the truly needy. That is an absolute disgrace and insult to all of us here that are honestly more concerned with helping the birds rather than proving their point of view on this issue.

There are to schools of thought here and it appears that people have chosen to take sides. WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE????

As far as Phil being banned, that really upset me and surprised me. I am new here and never thought in an open public forum it should have been handled so crudely and harshly. I do not think Phil "Walks on Water", but from what I have seen thus far on this forum Phil has certainly helped save many more birds than caused a few ruffled reathers to some people's egos he has offended. I am really glad to hear he has not been permantely banned.

Well I better stop ranting. I think I am talking out of turn again. The one thing I have learned from all of this is you must be very careful of what you say here. Constructive criticism has been burried alive here and needs to be resurrected.

Sorry if I have offened anyone, this is just one very small persons opinion.

Louise


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Louise, I have to say that I agree with you. Here is just one example:
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=28920
> This person posted at 1:49 this morning. In *this thread*, (Advanced Procedures) 5 different people posted AFTER the 1:49 time, but NO ONE answered the person above about his situation. Is it a life threatening situation? Maybe, maybe not.........but when people have time to post and fight amongst themselves and beat a dead horse to death, but don't have time to answer someone who's come here for help/advise, which is at least PART of the reason we are all here...........that's just sad.
> I would expect that there's more........I'm not going to research them just to make a point.
> The point is, after 3 days, 7 pages and 103 posts, there's no end in sight to this thread............and all that anyone has managed to do is ban a member




Renee, 
You are absolutely right. I apologise for that and had no intention when I started this thread of the debacle that followed. I am as guilty as anyone in not addressing those in need vs. posting here. In my defense, I was not on here for a day and a half, but that doesn't make it OK. I appreciate your words. I'm done posting here as of last night. Just wanted to thank you for pointing out the obvious. Sometimes I, and perhaps others of us need the 2x4 between the eyes.

Margaret


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Margaret and everyone,

I have avoided weighing in on this topic, but I felt the need to speak up about a few things.....some things I say will be on topic, but with apologies, some will be about a few other things that have come up in this thread.

First, I wanted to let everyone know as well that moderators cannot read other members private messages.

As was said, any censoring of curse words in PMs or posts is automatic, not done by a human. I seem to recall trying to use the word button in a post a ways back and the b u t t part was changed to asterisks! So this feature can be quite comical sometimes...You can get around this by spreading out the curse word of your choice with spaces between the letters.....such as c r a p instead of crap. Please don't do this in the public postings tho!

Also, I wanted to let people know that the moderators are not always of the same opinions on different problems or topics, just as the members do not always agree.

I think that people have to remember that the moderators are just people like yourselves, with different opinions and strong feelings sometimes. Do we always think objectively and with impartiality about certain controversial topics or members? My feeling and answer to that would be "no." Should we? Of course we should, but we are only human like everyone else. Unless a member (and it's usually a newbie) is a true "troll," I try very hard to give a member the benefit of the doubt, as we all get frustrated and even lose our tempers sometimes. I try to weigh the good against the bad in forming my opinion. I try very hard to be objective, but I'm sure if an issue or a person really got my goat, I too, would probably have my feelings colored by that. So what I'm saying is not a putdown of anyone....just my own thoughts and what I see on subject.

I know I don't respond as often as the other mods, but when I do, especially on controversial subjects, I try to do so without really stating my personal feelings. I learned my lesson about that a few years ago when I responded a certain way on a thread about hunting- my response caused some controvery and I believe I wound up apologizing.....another case of strong differing feelings where another valuable (I thought) member wound up leaving the forum because his views were not acceptable to most of the membership.

Margaret, I wanted to say to you that I appreciate your plea for a more open forum. I wouldn't mind that myself.....but personally, I don't feel it would work. I would love to be able to discuss certain topics "academically." I like a good debate. But, the very few times I have tried, even I got myself in hot water. Another lesson learned. We have too many different personalites here and very, very rarely, if at all, have I seen a controversial topic discussed without strong feelings sending the thread downhill and fast. It's just the way it is.

As far as the topic at hand....

Personally, I am a total wuss about even handling birds....let alone doing something to them or with them. I don't own any birds...just watch over and feed the ferals that come to my house. The one and only time (thank god) I came across an injury, I would up taking the bird to my local vet ($$$) and then wound up driving two hours to a bird sanctuary (more $$$, as I managed to blow my truck's engine on the drive home) where they probably wound up putting the bird to sleep anyway.

Just so everyone knows, that I personally am not versed or ever could be in any actual "hands on" treatment.

So, with that, I'd like to provide an excerpt from an excellent thread from the archives:

---------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=4654

Wildlife Rehabilitation:
The function of wildlife rehabilitation is to treat an animal with the purpose of restoring it to a point that it can be released back into the wild and be able to survive.
An individual with a wildlife rehabilitation license has an obligation to put down those animals that cannot make it. I would suppose that there are those rehabilitators that do not have the heart to destroy particular animals and keep them if they are not releasable but everyone has limited resources and most of those that cannot be returned to the wild are going to be euthanised.
There is no requirement that a rehabilitation license is need to keep, maintain and treat pigeons, sparrows and starlings. They are not native species and are therefore unprotected species. They are however, covered under the humane animal laws and therefore have to be accorded the respect and dignity required to keep them in as good a condition as possible. 
What constitutes humane is not only a legal problem for its definition but there are times when it becomes a moral dilemma and I will give you one expample.
About two months ago on a Suday night at about 10:30, I was coming home and saw an adolescent pigeon hiding by a fence. He was standing but his head was down towards the ground. That is a sign of pain in the crop or intestines. When I got him home, I examined his body looking for the source of the pain and found it. I felt a large hard substance inside and at the base of the crop. This was killing the bird. It was obstructing him. It was probably infecting him and it was causing a lot of distress. Based on what I saw of this bird's behaviour, I didn't think he would make it through the night.
It's 10:30pm on a Sunday. The bird is in a lot of pain. Death is coming soon. There was no way to get to a vet at that time. I had to make a decision.
When a bird is very thin, plucking chest feathers can actually rip out the skin. So, I used scissors to cut the feathers down to the base and cleared an area on the upper breast and to the right side of the bird. Doing it in the center is working directly over the esophagus and that is a no-no. The esophagus could herniate.
When enough area was cleared, I manipulated the rock-like object up towards that area and held it tight against the side of the crop. I then took a clean sharp Exacto knife and make a cut long enough to be able to remove this object but no longer than that.
When the cut was made, I pressed the object out through the incision. It was an unshelled peanut, swollen and way larger than when the bird first swallowed it from the moisture in the crop. When young birds are starving and they see something that they can swallow, they don't know enough to stay away from it and they take it down.
I stitched the skin closed but not the crop. The crop heals quickly, in about five days. There is a layer of fat and muscle uner the skin and I only sutured the skin. Anesthesia would be needed to go that deeply to suture anything else.
The bird was put on Baytril and hand fed some soaked Purina Puppy Chow, an easily digestible food that is very good for sick birds. I didn't want to feed seed because I knew the Puppy Chow would have a greater chance go past the wound and not get caught. Seed could be captured in the wound and possibly fester or go through the unsutured crop wound. The amount of food given was obviously never enough to fill the crop up to the level of that wound in the upper right breast area. 
In five days, when I felt the crop was closed, seed was started and the Puppy Chow was eliminated. Although the Chow is good, it has a lot of protein and can cause gout in birds so it can't really be given for long periods of time. I have no idea how long is too long.
The sutures were taken out on the tenth day. Everything was closed up. The bird was kept for another two weeks to build him up. That bird bonded to me. He became finger tame and he like to fly onto my head. He was too thin to release immediately. There was not enough fat to keep him viable in this cold weather. I took him to a friend who will keep him through the winter and release him in the spring.
So now you know about the internal conflicts that come up between what is legally humane treatment and ethical dilemma. I don't have the answer to whether I did the right thing here. All I know is that the bird is now alive, healthy and has a second chance. Right and wrong are not so easy to define.
Incidentally, I had a bird soon after that experience that had swallowed an acorn. This was also an adolescent but this one could not survive. He was infected from top to bottom. You could see pus coming out of his cloaca. He was too far gone to do anything. They do swallow these nuts.
So if you see a bird that is on the ground, pecking put appears to be extremely weak, reluctant to fly and is staying away from the group, that bird needs help and you never know what the problem is until you get it. At that point, it could be anything.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

This whole thing sort of reminds me of our school nurse in a way. Here she is, a registered nurse, and she is reduced to giving out baggies of ice and it's a federal case with forms having to be filled out if she has to dispense a bandaid. Which I think is a little ridiculous.


So, what is the answer? I truly don't know. 


I can see both sides of the issue at hand...

I just wanted to post this to let everyone know a little about what I thought, and to say to Margaret, I thought your posts were very rational, logical and thought provoking...

Linda


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Lin, as always, you manage to say just the right things.

I'm personally glad our mods have chosen not to close this thread. It may have gone downhill some but nonetheless, I think it is important that members have a chance to say how they feel.

Working in the kitchen just now, it occurred to me that defining "advanced procedures" is harder than I thought. I also considered that what is "advanced" to me may not be to someone else (like in the post Lin just quoted). Also, a person new to pigeons may think the things I do are "advanced".

Daily, we get asked "how do I feed a baby pigeon". Well, to me, with many of them under the belt, it is a simple procedure but to a person who has never fed one it is an "advanced" procedure. We take the time to explain how to do it, provide links to pictures and videos, tell them the kind of food to use. But you know what? Feeding a baby pigeon to a "newbie" can be fraught with problems and one of the main problems being aspiration. Not only that, we explain how to give shots for the prevention of PMV and pox. Those shots can be harmful if the needle is not placed correctly and they are bound to hurt like the devil. Each of these examples could be considered "advanced" depending on your point of view and experience.

I sometimes think we get too carried away with the pros and cons of something but I think it is important that even if we never perform certain procedures that we know how they are done - just like hand feeding a baby, but with a standard caution statement affixed.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thanks, Maggie,

I agree with everything in your post.

To me, the simple basic things you described would be advanced procedures, that I would be a total wreck trying to implement.

Linda


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hard to know just where to begin, but some comments in an ongoing “stream of consciousness” that many 
have contributed to here…..

Regarding sub-q when given as a shot and not a drip, I’ve never seen nor been advised by any of the 
Vets that I work with for the care of rescues that there is any significant concern of introducing bacteria
into the system when crossing the skin barrier. In fact, no topical germicide is administered for shots
or drips where animal care is concerned with the vets that I work with. Most folks use "one time use needles" these days that are hermetically sealed in individual packages. 

The mistrust of some members for Veterinarians in general or Avian Vets specifically is problematic in that there is a section devoted to rescue on this Pigeon site. We have had members join who have actually had medical resources available to them locally who haven’t availed themselves of the opportunity because opining memembers “warned” that most if not all vets know nothing at all about pigeons. BeanTree comes to mind. In that situation, the veterinarian she didn’t want to bring her bird to and dallied here instead, ended up being a very compassionate vet who also raised pigeons. There was no need for that bird to have the wing amputated at home, and we may never know if bringing this bird to the Vet mentioned would 
have kept the bird in the land of the living, but I think it safe to say that the bird would have had a better
chance. 

I know there were members here who believed they could have done as good or better w/Kyle, when the
Avian Vet who performed the surgery is ranked the third best in the world…‘nuff said on that topic.

Here is a link to the classical version of the Hippocratic Oath:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html

From this link ;

“I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this 
work. “

Something to think about when doctors swear not to perform surgery if it is not their area of expertise.

There are Federal and State laws which govern the practice of (or at least components thereof) most professions one might think of, Veterinarian medicine and "advanced procedures" being no exception. Unfortunately,
even when trying to help a bird, if we cause injury, suffering or death to 
the bird, there may be legal ramifications, Red would be a good example and
a very sad one.

As for AZ...she has been involved in responding to members who come here
for advice on sick and injured birds since I first joined here. She and Kippy
take good care of the birds in their area, and Cindy's husband has acted
as "Pigeon Chauffer Extraordinaire" on many occasions. Cindy has beautiful fancies and ferals alike....all rescues to the best of my knowledge. Unkind words and untrue words can be very hurtful. 

The spiritual path of AHIMSA embodies/embraces the phrase "do no harm"
and is the foundation of the Hippocratic Oath, extending the concept of
non-violence to actions that inflict harm through lack of good judgement and/or
negligence. Good judgement and free speach have the burden of responsible
behavior. Free speach doesn't enable or legitimize irresponsible words that
may encourage behavior that endangers.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

little bird said:


> After you have rescued and rehabbed for ten or fifteen years, after you have treated three or four thousand or maybe even more birds, maybe then you will be qualified to say what is totally unnecessary action on the part of the rehabber. A good rehabber faces up to what has to be done when the crisis presents itself. A good rehabber DOES what has to be done because she/he is the victims' only chance to survive.
> Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap. What's needed is action, and someone with enough guts to address the emergency.


You know Nona, I am personally tiring of your constant comments to my comments. If there is a discussion going on, then feel free to comment. But to constantly remark on MY comments, is petty and juvenile. I have just as much right to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I don't agree with many of your comments, but I do not go in and argue with you, or put down your comment. So, I would like to ask you in the most polite way that I can, TO PLEASE GET OFF MY BACK! I would think that a person of your age would conduct themselves in a more mature way. Have you nothing better to do? Everyone has a right to comment, and everyone else should respect that persons right to their opinion, whether it agrees with theirs or not.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> You know Nona, I am personally tiring of your constant comments to my comments. If there is a discussion going on, then feel free to comment. But to constantly remark on MY comments, is petty and juvenile. I have just as much right to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I don't agree with many of your comments, but I do not go in and argue with you, or put down your comment. So, I would like to ask you in the most polite way that I can, TO PLEASE GET OFF MY BACK! I would think that a person of your age would conduct themselves in a more mature way. Have you nothing better to do? Everyone has a right to comment, and everyone else should respect that persons right to their opinion, whether it agrees with theirs or not.


Whoa!

This is getting way too personal and is just what we DON'T need. This could have been handled just as easily through e-mail or a PM or contact a moderator.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

This criteria:

"After you have rescued and rehabbed for ten or fifteen years, after you have treated three or four thousand or maybe even more birds, maybe then you will be qualified to say what is totally unnecessary action on the part of the rehabber."

.....was excessively high to the point of being a public sledge hammer.....jmo.

fp


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I don't think advanced procedures should be instructed online. 

When it comes down to advance procedures, why can't it be done via email, pm or perferably telephone? I personaly think if someone is explaining a tough situation it should be done by phone.

There's a couple threads that stick in my mind and they won't leave. One was pertaining to puncturing a crop and another had to do with feeding just to name a few.

I just think when intruction is given it needs to be detailed and simple even if you have to repeat it over. How one types it and how one reads it can be taken differently. 

We just had a thread with feeding instructions that went south but now we want to deal with advanced procedures online. I just don't get it.

I just think we need to be careful on what we post on the Internet. You don't know who is watching and why or how someone is reading the advise.



> b u t t part was changed to asterisks!


That happen to me also, I couldn't believe it. Thanks for the spacing tip.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

KIPPY said:


> I don't think advanced procedures should be instructed online.
> 
> When it comes down to advance procedures, why can't it be done via email, pm or perferably telephone? I personaly think if someone is explaining a tough situation it should be done by phone.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Kippy. We don't know who is reading it, or what they mught do with it. When I was trying to help someome feed a bird, and she was having a hard time with it. I asked for her phone number and called her. It is much easier to be clear when you are speaking to the other person. You can than be sure that they are understanding what you are saying, and if there are questions, they can ask them right then. So when it is something even more involved, would it not be better to speak with them? Probably have fewer misunderstandings that way. Just my opinion.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I just think we need to be careful on what we post on the Internet. You don't know who is watching and why *or how someone is reading the advise.*


True, in the post that Lin copied, where a peanut was removed from the crop, there was specific and vital information on feeding and aftercare that I missed on the first read. 

Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

OK...I just HAVE to print this again...blame the devil (made me do it!) if you believe in such an entity...

There are times when we post that these words keep running around in my head!

*I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard in not what I meant.*

Sure is hard to "play nice" sometimes, eh??? 

FP...so nice to see you again!! Many thanks for your insightful post!

Love and Hugs to ALL...regardless of color, religious beliefs, sex, etc., etc., etc. 

Shi


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mr squeaks said:


> *I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard in not what I meant.*
> 
> 
> Shi


That's a good quote. I have always liked it. Thanks for posting it.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

Dear Lin,
I was taken aback a little by your reference to a post from more than 6 years ago. It's unbelievable how the time simply flies. In looking back at that time, although it doesn't appear on the surface, there may have been some arrogance built into it. Even then, though, I did wrestle with the dilemma of ethics. 

A lot has happened since then and I have learned so much more but that accumulation of additional knowledge has had the effect of making me much more conservative in my approach to this topic. Rather than my feeling that I can do more because I know more, it has made me realize that it is much more important to know what the complications can be from anything that is done to help a bird and knowing those, certainly reduces the options I feel are available for me.

I'm blessed with the availability of some of the finest avian vets being in this vicinity and rather than rely on them less over time, I find that I rely on them more. 

We have to change in order to grow. None of us can stand pat on prior experience and rely on them to solve current problems. Life just doesn't work that way.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Pigeonperson,

I did not mention who was the author of that excellent thread or the post within it when I included it in my reply. And also, I did not post it to be adversarial in any way.

I always remembered that post, even after all these years, because to me it illustrated what a moral and ethical dilemma it can be when trying to decide what is the right thing to do in a true emergency when no other options are available. 

That is the only reason I included the post in my reply...not to take one side or the other on this topic or to imply that that post was the "last word" on the subject.

Thanks,
Linda


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I know I said I wouldn't post any more on this thread. But since last night some new people have posted and I want to recognize and thank them. There is a great variety among us and each person here must be respected for the choices they have made to live by. I thought Charis' post about do no harm was a marvelous one. When we vow to do that, it leaves each person with the personal responsibility to evaluate their own actions and how they impact the world in which they live.

Blessings to you all,

Margaret



When one has access to information about any topic, one has the freedom to learn what to do and the freedom to also learn what not to do. The ethical choices then remain with the individual. Information itself is not judgemental or compelling. It simply is. Without information a person is acting blindly, moving neither forward or backward, without progress of any kind.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I've seen threads like this tear an online community apart.
Where people start getting a personal vendetta against everybody else who posts, downgrading their reputation for the smallest reasons, such as movie preference or being hopeful when a case looks bad.

Comments might be personal or just missunderstood.
They might destroy the trust and love that has accumulated over years or months of chatting.

I am disappointed in this forum, possibly for the first time ever. (Not really, it has been getting pretty bad lately.)

I have already refrained from EVEN READING some posts in the emergency section just so I won't be tempted to answer. I'm not the only one. And surely, the person who has downgraded my rep twice this month is probably celebrating as they read this.
From now on I'm only posting on threads about parasites.


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## kingsley hannah (Jan 9, 2008)

its all about sharing there is always going to be different views on how to do things in a sport/hobby where there are so many variations, it is nice to hear all of thes view and ideas, and its even nicer geting to know people around the world that you can chat to and ask for advice, lets keep this world simple! i use my birds as a release from the day to day stress and turmoil, and agree that its nice not to have that stress creeping into my relaxing time,
keep on smiling


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Nona, I take in pigeons from three local vet hospitals and animal control in addition to birds that come through here in one way or another from active and inactive members. I don't doubt the numbers. 

I just think placing these numbers as criteria to voice
one's thoughts/feelings here is uncalled for....jmo.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

little bird said:


> Well fp, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that those numbers MUST be accomplished to qualify to voice one's thoughts.......
> I'm saying when one has ACCOMPLISHED those numbers already, certainly they are knowledgeable enough to determine if something needed at the moment is too invasive and dangerous.



Originally Posted by little bird 
After you have rescued and rehabbed for ten or fifteen years, after you have treated three or four thousand or maybe even more birds, maybe then you will be qualified to say what is totally unnecessary action on the part of the rehabber. 
Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap. What's needed is action, and someone with enough guts to address the emergency. 


Excuse me, but I don't believe that anyone is misunderstanding what you said. There it is in black and white. We all have a right to an opinion, whether or not it agrees with anyone elses. And that right should be respected, without an attack from you.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Thank you, Cindy for saying this. Listening to some of the posts on here, I doubt that some people give any of this any thought. But then, that's just my opinion, but then I wouldn't work in a lab that experimented on live animals either. Sometimes, some of those posts sound pretty close.
> *I applaud you for speaking out on behalf of the poor birds*.





little bird said:


> After you have rescued and rehabbed for ten or fifteen years, after you have treated three or four thousand or maybe even more birds, maybe then you will be qualified to say what is totally unnecessary action on the part of the rehabber. A good rehabber faces up to what has to be done when the crisis presents itself. A good rehabber DOES what has to be done because she/he is the victims' only chance to survive.
> 
> *Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap*.
> 
> *What's needed is action, and someone with enough guts to address the emergency*.





little bird said:


> Sorry you guys, but I insist YOU are misunderstanding Me. I have better control of my temper than certain other members and I will not be goaded into posting arguements that gain nothing for anyone.


Nona,
Since I am indirectly involved in this I would like to comment on how I interpreted your post.
I don't think it's a temper issue rather a sarcastic comment issue. 

Case in point:
Jay was replying to one of my posts & said in part, "I applaud you for speaking out on behalf of the poor birds"

Your reply to her post, in part, was, "Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap". Then you follow with, "What's needed is action, and someone with enough guts to address the emergency"

What was the purpose of the sarcasm, except to insinuate that I'm all talk & no action. And to post it in reply to a member's reply to my post involves not only me but the other member as well.

These little gibes really are annoying & unnecessary. 

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*Clip Art....*

..........RED AND “PRACTICING WITHOUT A LICENSE” + ANIMAL CRUELTY



PARRALELLS IN THESE UNIVERSES?!?:

From this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f22/-urgent-pigeon-disaster-in-so-cal-12299.html?highlight=surgery

The following post:

So Cal Attorney Arrested For Keeping 300 Dead And Living Pigeons

http://tinyurl.com/8f3fl

SoCal attorney arrested for keeping 300 dead and living pigeons

TORRANCE, Calif. A Torrance attorney arrested for investigation of 
animal abuse is denying he mistreats the hundreds of pigeons he 
keeps in his house.

Gerard Enright was arrested this week after animal control officers 
raided his house and discovered about 300 living and dead birds in 
filthy conditions.

They found about 120 dead pigeons in bags and boxes. Others found in 
pet carriers throughout the house were euthanized because they were 
sick or malnourished.

Patrick Wren, the head of the animal control department, said he 
went to Enright's home Monday after getting complaints from People 
for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

He said he found the man operating on a pigeon, which only licensed 
veterinarians are allowed to do. Enright acknowledged he sedated the 
bird with vodka and an anesthetic to remove a large tumor from the 
bird. 


More “clips” that seem relative from this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=89770#post89770

Especially this:


Enright said he had yet to comprehend his loss. For 15 years, he 
said, he devoted himself to rescuing pigeons from man's ills, 
including poison and mistreatment. He admitted to operating on some 
birds, a key reason why animal control officials became concerned at 
the goings-on in his house.

Only licensed veterinarians can legally do surgery.

People regularly brought birds to him once he gained a reputation as 
the "pigeon man." An Easy Reader article two years ago declared the 
attorney a Renaissance man, and soon led residents from as far away 
as Hollywood to deliver injured birds to him.

But animal control officers and police said the birds were in 
terrible shape when they served a search warrant Wednesday. 
Enright's house was deemed so unfit to enter that county health 
officials closed it down.

Charges are pending, including possible felony counts for the 
surgery. “



.....no comment...

fp...


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> Originally Posted by little bird
> After you have rescued and rehabbed for ten or fifteen years, after you have treated three or four thousand or maybe even more birds, maybe then you will be qualified to say what is totally unnecessary action on the part of the rehabber.
> Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap. What's needed is action, and someone with enough guts to address the emergency.


Yikes! am I misunderstanding this quote?

Is there a board certified avian vet in the house? or any vet will do.


What people know or don't know or what they think they may know is not the deal here. I thought it was, what is appropriate to post on this site about advanced procedures?


Well that pretty much sums it up. fp
I guess PETA and animal control would love this thread.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

AZWhitefeather, feral pigeon, Jay3, and anyone else .......I admit I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I am not getting things down in print as I think them but I still maintain you are misunderstanding what I was trying to say. AZWhitefeather, as a moderator you have the power to edit my posts so please remove whatever you all are finding offensive. And feel free to do so in the future should I step out of line again. I hope you will allow me to remain a member.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

little bird said:


> * *AZWhitefeather, as a moderator you have the power to edit my posts so please remove whatever you all are finding offensive*.
> 
> ** I hope you will allow me to remain a member.


* I said nothing about your post being offensive. 
I said I felt you were being sarcastic & that is was annoying & unnecessary.

** 

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, i think this thread is way off any point it started with, maybe the hot weather getting to everyone? But i really did not see Nona's post as directed towards anyone. Maybe thats because i know Nona a bit, and i know just how non-judgemental she is and how respecting towards other peoples opinions she is.
I always felt comfortable telling Nona things that i knew she already didnt agree with me on, and knew it would never then be her being sharp with me as a result. 
If she says she was misunderstood, i believe her, because if thats what she meant, she would say so. Jay3, i ADORE you too, you are really one of the many people i look up to on here, and i just think people are misunderstanding each other.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, I agree. I don't yet know Jay3 like I "know" Cindy and Nona but I hope she has a long membership here so I can get to know her. I appreciate Cindy so much for always pitching in and offering help and the fact that she is allowing this thread to continue speaks volumes to me. I also appreciate Nona. Many of us here know of all the encouragement and help that she gives and I consider her a dear friend. Did she mean what she wrote? I don't know but I give her the benefit of the doubt just as I would do any one.

I'm sorry to see this thread go continually downhill. Much of the "animosity" shown here goes back to the original "surgical" thread and all the hoop-la that caused. The thread was deleted so no new members can go back and form their own opinion of what was said or done. Members who don't come on very often are speaking out on this thread and continuing the "surgical" debate. I am not here to say who is right or wrong. I have stated my choices - I use a vet, yet, there are many people on this forum who know a great deal about procedures and are probably now scared to even broach something for fear that a choice few people will blast them for it.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> I have stated my choices - I use a vet, yet, there are many people on this forum who know a great deal about procedures and are probably now scared to even broach something for fear that a choice few people will blast them for it.


I don't know a great deal about procedures, but I want to say that after this recent brouhaha, I'm hesitant to post questions and/or relay experiences for fear of being lambasted or criticized. And that's really a shame for me, because this site is one of the greatest conduits for learning that I've been able to find. 

In the short time I've been here, I've already gained so much knowledge from people like Pidgey and Cynthia, and I've always especially appreciated the fact that a forum such as this allows for many different responses to any one question. It's from being exposed to those different perspectives that one can learn the most, IMO.

Jennifer


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> *i really did not see Nona's post as directed towards anyone.*


Perhaps we are looking at this from a different angle, Moxie.
From my viewpoint, the *second* comment noted below is definitely directed toward the *first*.


I applaud you for speaking out on behalf of the poor birds. 

Anybody can speak up for the birds......talk is cheap.

It's just natural for people to disagree during conversations. This thread was going to be no different. 

It just takes one disespectful, sarcastic, unnecessary, badgering, etc., comment to send a thread reeling out of control. 
It makes no difference who said it. The fact is, a single word can start the ball rolling downhill. 
More times than not, when this happens the focus is then directed toward to unnecessary comment & usually, rightfully so, especially if it continues.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> *Cindy*,
> Well, *lets talk about you for a while...lets find out more about what you do*, in a nice way, and, enough about me for the time being, Okay?
> 
> Phil
> l v


Phil,
The post noted above seems to have been put on the back burner, so to speak, & I apologize for that. 
With that said . . .

I was in the medical profession from 1964-1992.
I've been a paralegal since 1994.

I became involved with pigeons in 2002. 
I joined this site in 2002 as a regular member & was asked to be a moderator a short time later.

My involvement with pigeons consisted of receiving those suspected of being ill or injured. I rehabbed them as best I could, while staying within the guidelines of my qualifications. I worked under the direction of a local, Federal & state licensed rehabber.

When it became apparent I would no longer be able to accept any more birds on a regular basis, due to medical issues, I focused on finding another way to help support our fine feathered friends.

I decided to create a calendar where as I could donate a portion of the proceeds to avian rehabilitation. 
My first calendar was Feathers & Fur & the second was Feral Feathers. I made a custom calendar for Shi where she picked out the photos. 
I've just completed one honoring our feathered war heroes. 

I have 10 pigeons. Mikko, Pij'ette, Rae Charles, Malio, Beautiful & Blueberry are all rescues & non-releasable. Sadie & Sam are the offspring of Mikko & Pij'ette & Dolly & Dumpling are the offspring of Malio & Sadie.

I have a small backyard feral flock, AKA my 'Backyard Buddies'. 

I still take in an occasional pigeon who needs a safe place to be released.

I have two cats. Reese, who my son resuced from the gutter 6 years ago when he was three weeks old, & Sadie, who we adopted from the Humane Society two years ago after our beloved cat, Spanky move on at the age of 19.

That pretty much sums it up. 

Cindy


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

AZWhitefeather said:


> * I said nothing about your post being offensive.
> I said I felt you were being sarcastic & that is was annoying & unnecessary.
> 
> **
> ...


Okay, there is every possibility that I am misunderstanding your words.....I repeat... I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

little bird said:


> Okay, there is every possibility that I am misunderstanding your words....


I didn't mention the word offensive, nor did I make any reference to it. So there should be no misunderstanding about it.

If you still feel there is, please contact me via email at [email protected] & I will be happy to discuss this further with you.

Cindy


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

It really isn't important enough to waste any more of your time or the forum space.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Before people were suctioning crops people were making a small insion anbd flushing the crop then stiching and birds were getting healed. Pigeons or any bird fall down fast on there health when it is comprimised. Now reading some instruction off a web site Would not help as much as you have to make a judgement call . 1st how far do you feel you can go trying to save this bird. 2nd is a vet visit going to help. As many a vet would recomend putting the bird down. UNLESS the vet works with birds and knows you will pay that bill that could be several hundred dollars. HELP mean what it says you if you take on the task of doing what you can or feel you can do then you helped. There will allways be failed attempts. As the bird may have been to far along in poor health. But this thread has advanced to throughing rocks of could have, should have, would have, IF you the person feel you need to do a certion something ,in the process of saving a birds life then you do it as you can. You helped even if it failed. Remember many a person would not help. AND many a person would just destroy that bird. Even a vet. A self treatment book would be blasted by die hard people that find it cruel. The concept of feelings plays its role to each person. IF doctors did not try in dark location to learn more in the far past times we would know less today. Some one brings you a sick injured bird your that birds doctor use your judgement But dont argue over who is right or wrong This thread parhaps needs closed to save face for this group of members that really care but have but now feel threatened either to speak or defend there view. Feel blessed you are one of the few that reach out and help birds. Maybe we can talk about the weather to side track some anger.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Robert, thank you.

And, the weather is hot here in North Carolina. .


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Robert, thank you.
> 
> And, the weather is hot here in North Carolina. .


It's pretty darn *hot* here as well, Maggie.
But then it *is* SUMMERTIME!!  

The backyard buddies keep looking around the corner in hopes of finding cooler weather. I just have to keep telling them, we have a few more corners to look around. 

Cindy


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Well, i think this thread is way off any point it started with, maybe the hot weather getting to everyone? But i really did not see Nona's post as directed towards anyone. Maybe thats because i know Nona a bit, and i know just how non-judgemental she is and how respecting towards other peoples opinions she is.
> I always felt comfortable telling Nona things that i knew she already didnt agree with me on, and knew it would never then be her being sharp with me as a result.
> If she says she was misunderstood, i believe her, because if thats what she meant, she would say so. Jay3, i ADORE you too, you are really one of the many people i look up to on here, and i just think people are misunderstanding each other.


Hi Moxie, I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread, but since my name has come up, I feel that I have to. With all due respect to you, there have been several instances where I have commented, and then Nona has come in and attacked me, or when not attacking, has left an argumentative or oppositional comment directly after my comment. She has been doing this ever since the "Phil" thing. So, I can see how a person unaware of this would say that they did not see it as directed at me. But if they were aware of the other times that she has done this, then maybe they might see it differently. And frankly, I'm growing tired of the attitude. PT is a great place to learn, and to get to know so many interesting people. Caring people. Intelligent and helpful people. But when people behave in this manner, it just looks bad for everyone, and takes away from the friendly, caring feeling that you get from most of the people on this forum. I am new here, and I don't like to share bad feelings with anyone. I love PT, and all the people who share, and have helped so many new people like me to learn. I really love and enjoy my birds, and want to learn all I can, to be able to take the best care of them that I can. Don't know what it is about pigeons, but I originally came home with 6 babies to raise, (two of them being only about 2 days old). Thank God for the help I received on this wonderful forum. We all survived the endless feedings and everything else that came up. I fell in love with them, and view each and everyone of them, plus my two rescues as a very important part of our family. Thanks to this forum, if I have the opportunity to start with very young babies again, I will now do an even better job. I thank everyone who I have learned from here. I don't want to harbor bad feelings for anyone on PT. I just want to be friends and enjoy the learning experience. I don't know why everyone on here can't feel the same. I think it would be so much more fun than trying to outdo each other. Better to share and learn from each other. Anyway, we are now in the process of building a loft, and I hope to make it a place where I can help more birds in need, and with all your help, I will be able to do that. I just wanted to say that. Thanks for listening to my long, dragged out comment. And thanks for the sharing of ideas. That's what makes it good. So many people with different ideas. And the right to express them. If we all agreed on everything, then we would never learn anything new.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Robert, alot of things change over time, hopefully for the better or greater
good. We used to have no child labor laws to protect children from profiteering
predators but raising consciousness about their plight brought legislation
forward to protect the innocent.

There were alot of things done in the past where the treatment of animals 
is concerned and legislation likewise has been passed to protect the animal
kingdom from abuses, though we are still along ways off from an animal
cruelty-free society.

Perhaps for some, laws are a nuisance and just get in their way of doing
things the way they want to. It's easier, cheaper, perhaps more expedient.
Regardless of the thought process, surgerizing is by definition a doctor's
domain, not the lay person. I don't believe there is a correlary between
doctors in days gone by seeking answers after the many years of specific
study required to lay folks here @ PT experimenting w/Do it yourself surgery
or other procedures requiring certification or licensing.

fp

PS--I may not post regularly, but I sure do pigeon rescue regularly....in addition to three jobs.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Well said Robert! And i guess i am not here enough to know what is going on, i try to stay out of it even though somehow i am sometimes the matter of argument. I will say this, ever since my "lashing," and having people emailing me saying, "well, he said this, and she said you did this," i have been hesitant to post, i feel like i shouldn't post when certain people are here, and nothing, not ONE bird has come across my path as bad as that one was. I was hesitant to bring up that situation, even after Pidgey mentioned it i decided i would pretend i never saw it, because i dont want to bring all that stuff up again, i feel horrible, i am absolutely devastated, to the point that if i saw another bird, instead of trying to help i think i might take it to be PTS first, and that is very sad. I help less birds now, where before i was never able to pass a single hurt animal, even roadkill i would check to see if they were still alive. I always thought trying was better then not trying, but i feel more cynical, and dont like it, but thats the truth. People might be mad at me for being very honest here, but thats the truth.
i do feel like some others do here, people are patted on the back when it goes well, when the EXACT same situation could come up and go wrong, and the person is blamed, or the person giving advice is blamed, and it turns into more bitterness, more people sticking to their little "cliques." And there are cliques, sorry, but its true. 
people that are new, i mean entirely new, will see threads like that one and run scared, never wanting to help another bird because of the entirely opposite advice given, someone new doesn't have time to decide who to listen to, who doesn't know as much about this thing, and who knows more about this subject. There are people here that know ALOT about certain subjects, while others know little about that subject. I know i am very good at catching pigeons, but dont know anything about other subjects, maybe could spot canker and not think its a stuck french fry like when i was first here! LOL!
I can say i know people that have left the site because of instances like the ones people are bringing up. I can see both sides to this issue, its hard to draw a line, and i look towards the experienced members to guide me. 
Pidgey, he has many times told me, "Kid, only a vet can do that," or "EVEN i would only ask a vet about that." I believe in do no harm, but i am more confused the longer i have been a member. When i was first here, wow, how GREAT it was to find people helping an animal, the pigeon, that there are little to no rescue places for, even the animal rescue leagues see as vermin, and i thought it was SO AWESOME that since there was no help out there, people were helping pigeons themselves instead of relying on any organization that would just PTS. I still see some of the birds i helped, and when i see them, it is so nice to see them happy, cooing around, eating seed, and knowing they would of died a miserable death if it wasn't for pigeon talk. There will always be mistakes, even in the vet practice, but none of us will know whether that pigeon would of lived if this was done, and its no point putting blame, but rather constructively discussing what could be done different when the same situation arises. 
Also, i dont think, no, i KNOW, that one course of action would never work for everyone that comes here. I mean, people COME HERE BECAUSE there is no place that will help them, and most people dont have the money, dont have a ride, live far away from a vet, and cannot do what is being asked of them. If e person comes here, has money to spend on a vet and is willing to take their time, i would be the FIRST to say AWESOME! But thats not always the case.
Most people will read my post and ignore it, i think its an issue we have all been scared to talk about since then, i know i have been. I know some people probably think i am the worst person on the planet for what happened, while most members have told me that its OK, mistakes happen, or the bird probably was going to die anyways, you TRIED, and as Robert said, feel good that you TRIED, not that you FAILED. 
Oh, and by the way, Charis said she wasnt even talking about MY incident, but i think she just meant these incidents in general, which i guess would include mine. 
Anyways, night everyone...


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