# ferral has a paramyxovirus I think



## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tonight my husband brought home a pij that was in the water at the marina and after reading I have decided he is ill with a virus. He twists his head and is dizzy and falls over I cannot give him rescue fluids because his head moves all over the place. I have him in the house on a low heating pad and covered with cotton tee shirt. What else should I be doing? Should we be worried about our other pets or ourselves? We want to help him.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Where are you located? We may have a member nearby that could help you with the bird if needed.

Right now, warm, dry, dark and quiet is good for the bird. Let it settle down for a few hours and then offer some seed and water.

Since you pulled this bird from the water, it is possible that it ingested a lot of nasty water which included gas, oil, and who knows what. That alone could be enough to cause the twisting and dizziness. It is highly unlikely that this bird has anything that could be transmitted or be harmful to you or your pets.

Terry


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

Terry, Thank you for the quick response as it is getting late and I must rise early. I am in Washington State near Tacoma.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

giantee2001 said:


> Terry, Thank you for the quick response as it is getting late and I must rise early. I am in Washington State near Tacoma.


Thanks for the location .. please let us know how the pigeon is doing in the morning. Please continue to keep the bird warm and stress free, and let us know if the dizziness and twisting has subsided or not. It is possible the bird has PMV, but this is totally the wrong time of year for it.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

hi Giantee, 



Hypothermia is the usual effect of being immersed too long in even 'cool' Water, let along 'cold' Water...


This can make anyone very 'off' or 'drunk-acting' and so on.


So, yes, as Terry mentions, keep him 'warm' for sure by providing actual warmth with a Heating Pad, and drape whatever he is in so no drafts can reach him..


Might be a day or more for him to spring 'back'...



In fact, keep him in a white Towell so you can see and evaluate the Poops.


If he is 'sick' from something which was effecting him prior to his Water adventure, seeing 'no poops' will be a clue to his having not been eating.

Might be a youngster, too...


Can you post some sort of close up images of him?



Anyway, good luck!


Thanks for rescuing him!


Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> It is possible the bird has PMV, but this is totally the wrong time of year for it.


It is strange that you should say that, Terry, because most of my PMV rescues have been found in winter. This year John found Holly and Jayne found Anastasia, last year John found Noel. They were all Christmas rescues. Hurdy, Gurdy and Blackie were found in late November 2000 and Bully, Smoothy and Micky were found in January: I remember that Mick was swishing his beak through the snow which alerted me to the fact that something was odd, closer examination revealed fine tremors of his eyes and head. There are more winter victims , those are the ones I didn't have to dig into my records to find details.

Maybe we have a "winter" strain here that hasn't reached you?

Giantee, her is a link to PMV, its symptoms and treatment.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12250&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

I also brought home a few PMV pigeons (adults) this winter and one youngster with symptoms a week ago. The adults all recovered, the youngster did not make it.
In Belgium I find PMV victims all year round.


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

It could also be that some PMV-infected pigeons manage to live with it until such a time as they get worn out by cold weather or lack of food, both of which can occur in winter...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

cyro51 said:


> It is strange that you should say that, Terry, because most of my PMV rescues have been found in winter.
> 
> Maybe we have a "winter" strain here that hasn't reached you?
> 
> Cynthia


If there is a winter strain in the U.K., please feel free to keep it there .. what we have here in the U.S. is plenty!  

Seriously, I would have to go back through my records and see if there is a particular time of year that I've gotten PMV birds in. Off the top of my head, it seems they arrived in the late summer and fall, but I could be wrong about that.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

ryannon said:


> It could also be that some PMV-infected pigeons manage to live with it until such a time as they get worn out by cold weather or lack of food, both of which can occur in winter...


That could very well be the case.

Terry


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hey everyone, Thank you for all the info. I get a rescue animal or bird at least once a month. Last month it was a diving loon,They just seem to find me. The pij slept all night on his heating blanket and when I got up this a.m. he drank two little cups of rescue fluids and ate a bunch of seed. I really think the hypothermia theory was it. There is no food source for feral birds in lil ol Gig Harbor and I think he sucomed to hunger. Now im fearful to release him do to the same problem. I want to take him back there to where all the others are but dont want this to happen again. Any suggestions? Thank you again!!!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You could keep him until he fattens up and the weather warms... then...keep him in an enclosure in your yard and support him with food. After a week or so, let him go but leave food out. Maybe he will bring his friends and family to your house.  
At the least, he will know where to come if he is hungry.


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

I would do that but the lady next door feeds birds and I have seen the pigeon hawk swoop in for the kill on many occasions. That would be a heart breaker for sure.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I have seen two PMV pigeons this winter.

The first, *PP2C* ("pee-pee-two-see") for *P*igeon with *2* *P*ale *C*laws, was the same pigeon I took to _Taubenklinik Essen_ (pigeon clinic in Essen, Germany) for a lump under her right foot on Monday, November 26, 2007. The lady doctor did a crop swab (we could observe the live action of the microbes under the microscope, on the video screen connected to the microscope). No large amounts of bad microbes. She did a blood test, and reported a few days later that the pigeon didn't have paratyphoid/salmonellosis. The lump under the left foot where the toes join, about the size of a peanut, was due to trauma, she figured. PP2C flew out a day or so later. 

I had a bit of work coming up with PP2C's name: her main left toe and the inner toe of his left foot have pale toenails or claws. The others are dark. It is about the only way I can identify him.

On the way to the pigeon clinic, at the Duisdorf main train station, I also rescued a squeaker with right leg broken near the hip. He is with the re-habber Christa G., and she thinks he may have to have his leg re-broken and re-set, since he falls over. I have to check back with her to see what happened with him. I named him *Deuce von Duisdorf*, since he was one of a pair of birds I took that day, and "Deuce" rhymes with "Duis-" of Duisdorf. 

On Thursday January 10th I noticed PP2C was having trouble eating seeds. I enticed her inside, fed her for a week, and let her out on January 17th. He is doing fine. Saw him today. I made video clips of him, with his head upside down. I will upload them to Google video sometime and link to them, for reference purposes, or load them into YouTube. So much to do.

The second PMV pigeon: On Saturday January 19th, 2008, I saw a bunch of tail feathers and smaller white insulating feathers on the street below, a bit farther down the street from our window. No blood or carcass. I think a raptor got the pigeon. He had been sick for a while, a month maybe, sitting slightly fluffed up and less active than the other neighboring pigeons. The day before I tried to entice him inside with seeds, but he showed not much interest. He did go to some seeds I set on a hard to reach windowsill, and had trouble pecking. I made two swipes at him with a net with fine mesh, sold to me "for pigeons." The net had about a twelve-inch diameter opening, and wen the pigeon had his wings spread he was able to keep from being scooped into the net. I had to reach and stretch for him, and couldn't be too obvious about it, lest the neighbors see. Missed him, and he flew off. He was a local pigeon who had a wee bit of trust in me, and I simply added to his miseries. I figure a quick death, if such it were, might have been a blessing for him, and a meal for the raptor, and a better choice than a healthier, escaping pigeon who suffered broken bones or injuries from an unsuccessful raptor attack. When I die, don't mind being recycled by animals, small microorganisms or larger predators. I should phrase that, _after_ I die.

*Cynthia*, 

It occurred to me that Britain's pigeons might be better off if they had a milder strain of PMV from the continent to help them ward off a more virulent strain. At the London Wildlife Center, *Kittypaws* says they routinely euthanize PMV pigeons, since only 2 percent survive, even after extensive care and treatment. Just a thought, maybe eventually even an opinion.

We have had some mild weather with damp and wet conditions, fluctuating or alternating with colder weather the past month or so: great for colds, and for flu. Good for viruses.

Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

hi Giantee, 


Glad to hear he is appearing like an all-right Pigeon now and eating and drinking and so on..!


Do keep him on a white towell in order to evaluate the poops...


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

Ok poops are green and white slightly runny. Is that normal?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If the bird is starving, that's about what I would expect the poops to look like. I'd give it a day or so, with food, to see if they firm up.


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

*PMV feral needs our help!!!!!!!!*

Pij from Wa. St. that was found in water is not well today. Neck rolling and drunk with star gazing. Yesterday he was fine. I read about pmv and there is a lot of meds and terminology beyond my skills. I understand pmv lasts around six weeks and then what? Is there someone in Wa. st. who can help pij and I?.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There is a place in Tacoma called Tradewinds that carries many pigeon supplies. You should be able to find everything you need there. You are very fortunate you have a pigeon supply close.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Certainly sounds like he has PMV and the uncontrolled movements and loss of flight co-ordination got him where he was.

There is no medication for PMV once they have it. It's just keeping them in a not-too-bright place, quiet and away from animals, children or much 'passing traffic' in the house, with something soft as their floor. 

If he has no control, then it can be a case of hand feeding for a while. A rehabber could feed him on a semi liquid food into his crop, but unless/until one can be found (one who will take in a PMV case and not put it down), he could initially be fed, just to get some food into him, on

small pellets of dampened bread (pref wholemeal) and/or
frozen corn & peas, thawed in hot water for about 20 mins

He would have to be given each one at a time directly towards the back of his mouth, if he cannot transfer food from front of beak into mouth (they often toss seed etc. as the head jerks). 

PMV alone does not have a high mortality, but starvation through inability to pick up and hold food is a major cause of fatalities.

Best bet will probably be to wrap pij in a towel or something so just his head peeks out when feeding.

He will also need water. A small pot or, at first, just water dripped into the beak (not squirted into mouth, as it can go down the airway). He can also have a deep pot or dish of seed .. mixed corn, pigeon or dove mix, wild bird food ... if he is still able to pick food up and eat. It would need to be deep, as they frequently have to make a wild plunge at food because of the head/neck movements.

John


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Giantee,

We have a member who is about 25 or so miles away from you. I don't know if she would be able to assist you with this pigeon or not. I've sent her an e-mail and a private message to ask. I wasn't sure if you were asking to have someone take over care for the bird or just needed some hands on and moral support from an experienced pigeon person in your area.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Giantee, 



This kind of symptoms is also typical of serious starvation.


If the poops are only some dark green slime and white, the Bird is starving to death.



If he is to come off of a serious fast, regular food can kill him.



The routine would be to tube feed or 'Baby Feed' nutritious 'thin' Formula for a couple days, as PER how well it is getting processes by his system, then onto small whole seeds if he will eat by then, and usually they do.



Any idea how old this Pigeon is?



Phil
l v


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

First off, thank you everyone for the support as you all seem to know your bird stuff. I called a local place called Tradewinds to find out about meds. The batril needs to be vet subscribed. He also said the bird is too far gone to help and that I should find a humane way to end his suffering. I have not heard any of you say that so I am going to continue my vigilance with pij. I am not sure of his age but maybe this photo will help.He drinks water and trys to eat seed. I will hand feed today. Poops are watery and mostly clear as he did not eat yesterday. He is on his feet today and still on the heating pad on low.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have several PMV pijies and so did/do many of our members here. There is no need to euthanize. They are not in pain even though the symptoms must be frustrating to them, most pijies do recever or partailly recover. With time they get used to their environment and us humans and they start showing less symptoms, they might still occasionally do the head twist especially when stressed, but generally they do great and have a good quality of life. So, hang in there, it takes time to see some improvement, sometimes months, but it's worth the wait.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Giantee, 


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkay...that image really helps..!


This is an adult who...m-a-y-b-e does have the "PPMV", or,. who maybe has a salmonella or other illness going on.

Actually, he looks pretty darned GOOD..!

No way should one give up on this fellow...he has very very god chance of getting through this.


There is a little fecal matter there like some short 'snakes' in the opaque liquid Urates...so, he had been eating not too long ago, on his own.


If you gently wrap him in a small Towell, like a 'Burrito', and spigot him between your legs just behind your knees as you sit...so you are grasping Towell and Tail and not his body...you can work with him to put Seeds into his Mouth.


Use small Seeds, show them to him, tap them gently against his Beak, ve very gentle and also just tell him in plain english what you intend and how you want to help him...and, it might take a few tries before he lets you do it without resisting a great deal, but, gently open his Beak, making sure not to create any sideways forces...


And, with his Beak open, get a finger tip into it to keep it open...and 'open' means really just open enough for a finger tip to be in it.


Put in four or five small whole Seeds, oush the Seeds back a ways, and let him close and swallow...then, repeat.


If he has the PPMV, and is cared for, he will very likely muddle through it well, and he might get over it and be just fine, or he might end up with some after-effects which handicap him to some extent.


He is a very handsome Pigeon...and I am sure he will really appreciate you getting some Seeds into his Mouth...and or working with him for him to be pecking and self feeding ( which of course is a lot easier for both of you! ) 


Just see if you can get half a Shot Glass worth into him for now...and, then do it again in three hours or so.



The Finch Seed or Parakeet Seed they sell at Petsmart or the likes is a good choice for this, along with some White Safflower Seeds. I would get those a.s.a.p.


Very likely he will soon be interested to peck and self feed.
He ight be interested even right now in fact, foir all we know...

...and, for that, have him stand or lay on a towell on your lap, and hold the Shot Glass in front of him, steady hi gently with your left hand, and even have a small towell over him and tucked in so just his Head is exposed, especially if he will lay down...and, with your free hand, steady his Head, make a light finger-cage around his Head, with your finger tips on the rim of the Shot Glass, and that way, if he is 'wangley' in his movements, he will be able to peck, and eat and get a nice meal each time you do this.

Use an almost full Shot Glass for this, and any spilled Seeds of course will be easy to round up on the lap Towell.


Let us know how it goes?



See if you can get a heating pad, under a towell, in a small Cage, and drape the Cage on three sides so he can be definitely 'warm' while in there.

If you do not have a sall Cage, use a one foot by one foot by one foot Cardboard Box, on it's side, with the front 'open' and drape some cloth over the front so he does not accidently trundle or tumble out. If he is comfortable and feels safe, he will not want to go anywhere right now anyway.


If his pecking is good enough, of course you can just set a Tea Cup full of Seeds in his Cage for him, jamming it into the Cage corner so it will be stable, and he will manage fine.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I spoke with giantee a few moments ago and the bird is full of seed and not much is moving through. A pet shop recommended wild bird mix that has sunflower and pumpkin seeds. My concern is that some of those seeds have created a blockage and I suggested a gentle crop massage many times throughout the day to get things moving...that and some water. The bird is able to eat on it's own, even with the twisted neck.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The poop in the photo is a typical PPMV poop.

The pigeon will be infectious to other pigeons for 6 weeks, but it can take twice as loing as that and more for the nervous symptoms to diappear.

Stewed apple baby food should help get the crop moving and soften up the seeds.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I didn't know that stewed apple baby food helps. Good to know, thanks.
I would pull the seeds for now and don't feed other than what Cynthia recommended and lots of water.
I had a PMV dove who had that, seems like PMV can lead to crop stasis, my vet noticed that too.

Reti


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Reti said:


> I didn't know that stewed apple baby food helps. Good to know, thanks.
> I would pull the seeds for now and don't feed other than what Cynthia recommended and lots of water.
> I had a PMV dove who had that, seems like PMV can lead to crop stasis, my vet noticed that too.
> 
> Reti


It changes the PH balance.
gaintee,
Just to be clear, the applesauce needs to be humane baby food variety because it will be low in sugar.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I myself have never seen any self-feeding PPMV Pigeon have Crop Stasis, but, a FULL Crop might take most of a day or a day to empty, simply because it is 'full', and, maybe, because their systems are a little slower.


I would NOT be giving him BIG 'Seeds'.


Small to medium size Seeds would be the most prudent, as is the case with any convelesent and new-arrived Pigeon.

In fact I would say NEVER give "big" Seeds to any Pigeon who shows thin poops or who is ill.

For what it is worth, aside from me just flapping my gums to the Winds, I DID say "SMALL WHOLE SEEDS" for this one....yes????


Yes...


Why does almost no one ever listen?


Anyway...


ACV-Water would probably be a good one for him, and would answer the "PH" interest.


My present and similar PPMV Pigeon still in Quarenteen, stuffs himself so his Crop is 'like-a-Tennis-Ball' every morning when I present the Feed Bowl of Seeds, being a full Tea Cup worth, and by the next morning, his Crop is ready for the new day...with of course many nice picture perfect Poops too.


Originally he could not eat, or would not or had no interest anyway...and we had a week or so of Tube feeds, then gentle Lap Towell times with 'Seed Pops' and tube feeds, then, tentative little wan peckings into the the Shot Glass of Finch Seed, then, he got back into pecking.

He is 'wangley' in his loose Head and Neck things, but pecks very well now.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Just had a nice conversation with giantee2001 about the pigeon she found. This bird is so lucky to have fallen in with this lady!! She has a good start with all the info from PT members, and has had some experience with other rescues.

The bird is eating (she'll buy some small seed), drinking (when offered - so no risk of drowning), pooping (still not normal), and is set up with heating pad with option to get off. Depending on how things progress, we'll connect later in the week.

I don't have experience with PMV (if that's what this is), so will depend on members with experience for treatment suggestions. Are antibiotics routinely recommended? I vaguely remember something about calcium shots (I think) as being helpful.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

TerriB said:


> Just had a nice conversation with giantee2001 about the pigeon she found. This bird is so lucky to have fallen in with this lady!! She has a good start with all the info from PT members, and has had some experience with other rescues.
> 
> The bird is eating (she'll buy some small seed), drinking (when offered - so no risk of drowning), pooping (still not normal), and is set up with heating pad with option to get off. Depending on how things progress, we'll connect later in the week.
> 
> I don't have experience with PMV (if that's what this is), so will depend on members with experience for treatment suggestions. Are antibiotics routinely recommended? I vaguely remember something about calcium shots (I think) as being helpful.


Thank you so much, Terri, for touching base on this bird! Greatly appreciated! I'm glad things are coming along OK. Antibiotics are often given just because the PMV has weakened the immune system and we are hoping to stave off any opportunistic bacterial things. Don't think it was calcium but perhaps prednisone that Cindy discovered.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> *Don't think it was calcium but perhaps prednisone that Cindy discovered.*
> Terry


Yes, it was Prednisone, given orally.

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

TerriB said:


> I don't have experience with PMV (if that's what this is), so will depend on members with experience for treatment suggestions. Are antibiotics routinely recommended? I vaguely remember something about calcium shots (I think) as being helpful.


Calcium in direct liquid form has certainly been known to help with PMV in some cases (both Cynthia and someone else on the forum - name escapes me - have reported apparent improvement). What I think is referred to as 'anecdotal evidence'. An antibiotic may, as Terry says, stop any infection which may have taken root due to the bird being weakened by PMV, but it's always an open question as to whether to give them 'in case'. If Baytril is given, it should be a few hours apart from giving calcium.

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> someone else on the forum - name escapes me


That was Jules (Julianna), we discovered that it helped independently from each other. I think that she mentioned treating over 50 PMV pigeons. Julianna has found that calcium is also effective during relapses.

The use of antibiotics when there is no infection is debatable. Vindevogel and Duchatel carried out specific tests which concluded that antibiotics can aggravate the course of the disease. The secondary infections that a pigeon with PPMV is most likely to develop are canker, coccidiosis and aspergillosis, broad based antibiotics like Baytril and Synulox/Clavamox are not particularly effective against these.

One of the PPMV pigeons that was brought to us by another member ...or someone that had learnt about us from another member...had a sudden improvement 18 months after developing the disease and then a sudden relapse three months later. I am treating her with Prednisone as directed by Cindy's vet. Fortunately Cindy had retained the information on dosages and I had a good supply of the prednisone that was prescribed for my own illness left over.

Cynthia


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Great! Thanks for all the information!


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## giantee2001 (Feb 1, 2008)

*hey everyone. pij with pmv back 4 a visit.*

We are checking in on week two. Pij is gaining weight and has a great drive for his seed. he has a bath every other day and loves the sunny table seat. Did someone say dark places for pmv? I want him to feel like he is still on earth. He still has bad days where he can not control head or body and wants to be held. We got rid of the heat pad. I know everyone said six weeks to six month's with possible relapse but is he ever going to get a new home or be in a flock again? I am worried to hook up with Terri and her flock as this is a serious virus. I will be honest and say I don't know if I can give Pij six month's of this intense care. my time is also nearing for another rescue as I get sent one once a month from the good lord above. T.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You are doing such a good job. You are so caring and kind. Maybe you will be rewarded for that and be spared another rescue for a bit more time. Fingers crossed!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Did someone say dark places for pmv? I want him to feel like he is still on earth.


I think that sunlight is a natural healer, I make certain that the two I have in isolation at the moment get a chance to sunbathe when we have sunshine here. Bright lights (like a camera flash) can have a temporary bad effect on them as can sudden loud noises.

Don't expect too much in two weeks. I have had Anastasia and Holly since Christmas and Anastasia is only just able to eat on her own, Holly still stargazes most of the time.

She won't be infectious or a threat to other pigeons after 6 weeks, but if you can find her a home rather than release her, she will have a greater life expectancy...but then all feral pigeons will live longer in captivity.

Cynthia


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## SophieLila (Nov 27, 2009)

myrpalom said:


> I also brought home a few PMV pigeons (adults) this winter and one youngster with symptoms a week ago. The adults all recovered, the youngster did not make it.
> In Belgium I find PMV victims all year round.



Hi I'm new to this board, living in Brussels and have been caring for what I believe is a PMV pigeon since Oct. 5th (and feeling totally alone in this). She (?) had all the symptoms listed for PMV and seems to be recovering nicely. Emergency care was fine, supportive care was fine, now I'm a little lost as to what to do. I'm willing to give her a permanent home, but I live in a small studio...Really small. She makes no attempt to fly, but seems happy (grooming, stretching a wing and a leg, flapping her wings, eating, drinking, looks healthy from a visual inspection...) I'm hoping to get some advice, if at all possible...Thanks!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

SophieLila said:


> Hi I'm new to this board, living in Brussels and have been caring for what I believe is a PMV pigeon since Oct. 5th (and feeling totally alone in this). She (?) had all the symptoms listed for PMV and seems to be recovering nicely. Emergency care was fine, supportive care was fine, now I'm a little lost as to what to do. I'm willing to give her a permanent home, but I live in a small studio...Really small. She makes no attempt to fly, but seems happy (grooming, stretching a wing and a leg, flapping her wings, eating, drinking, looks healthy from a visual inspection...) I'm hoping to get some advice, if at all possible...Thanks!


You've come to the right place 
If you browse around in the different forums there is a wealth of information on anything you need to know.
Thank you for rescuing her and they DO make excellent pets. Pigeons are very people oriented. If you have a large cage and time to come out a bit to stretch her wings and socialize with you, food and water, they are very happy.
But I suggest you start a new thread so more people will see it (the thread you posted in is almost 2 years old)


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

If you go to the main menu - click on "I found a pigeon (or dove) now what?
Then go to the top and click on "forum tools"
In the drop down screen click on "start new thread"
And you'll have your own thread


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Yeah, you will get more info if you start own treat as most of the users qill ignore 8 months old thread.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> Yeah, you will get more info if you start own treat as most of the users qill ignore 8 months old thread.


Ah, 1 year and 8 months LOL it is 2009 isn't it? I could be wrong


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Have started new thread with new member's post and MSFreebird's immediately following post

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/feral-with-pmv-in-belgium-41535.html


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