# Idiopathic ascites



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

*Idiopathic Ascites, trouble breathing*--Our pet rescued pigeon had 30 cc of yellow fluid drained from her abdomen last week after she started having trouble breathing. The vet said tests showed the fluid was not egg yolk and there were no bacteria. She is taking furosemide, Baytril, and an anti-inflammatory, but is regaining 1-2 grams of weight per day. For the first few days, her appetite was good but she is starting to fluff up more and seems unhappy. Lab tests also showed no problems with her heart, liver, kidneys. The vet wants to x-ray her again today after removing more fluid. Does anyone have experience with this or suggestions? She is about 2 years old and healthy except for initial surgery she had as a youngster for flying into a fan.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cwebster, I am sorry to hear about this condition with your little one. It sounds like the right steps are being taken. With the tests, did they do an extended time "culture all" to the drained abdominal fluid, as some anaerobic bacteria are slow to grow and culture. You could try adding a second antibiotic that works well with Baytril against anaerobes, two would be Metronidazole and Clindamycin to see what the response is. Another possibility that would also have to be considered if aggressive antibiotic therapy failed would be cancer, in the end this is what my bird had and was diagnosed through an endoscopic liver biopsy, but my vet before this was diagnosed said he seen birds with unattributable ascites respond to aggressive antibiotic therapy. This is even more a possibility with hens as they can get reproductive infections, that are not egg yolk peritonitis related, that are sometimes hard to diagnose and sometimes problematic to treat effectively in finding the med or combination of meds to clear the infection, two good combinations for this are Baytril and Metronidazole and TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) and Metronidazole.

The Baytril and Metronidazole was the second step in AB therapy, Baytril alone was the first tried, and when these therapies did not provide the results we were looking for we eventually moved on to 5 days of injections with Amikacin (a really big gun in the antibiotics for birds world), which also failed, before a firm diagnosis was finally made, through a biopsy as mentioned. During this whole time, even though my bird was on Furosemide, and it did help by the way, I still had to have abdominal fluid drained a number of times to ease my bird's breathing, and the relief was always immediate.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi cwebster,



I have never confronted this condition.


But, occasions of where I have dealt with Pellet Gun perforation wounds to the Abdomen or Chest, where it is presumed that the Pellet did not perforate internal Organs, after removing foreign matter and inflamitory debris, I have sluiced and fluched the interior with Saline that had Antibiotics dissolved in it.

I have never understood the reasoning of wishing to rely on an Oral Antibiotic, when infection is known to be causing pus or other debris in various interstitial areas, where, typically, things are then very hard to clear up.


If it was me, if there is an opening to do so, or if the Vet may provide an opening to do so, I would consider to use both the Oral Medications, and, to do frequent sluicings and flushings with a solution of Saline and Antibiotics.


Instences of there being no handy opening to do this, are not something 
I have encountered, but, if I were to encounter it, I would inquire of my Vet for having a suitable opening provided, for allowing a few days of such cleaning and treatment.



Phil
Lv


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Cwebster, I am sorry to hear about this condition with your little one. It sounds like the right steps are being taken. With the tests, did they do an extended time "culture all" to the drained abdominal fluid, as some anaerobic bacteria are slow to grow and culture. You could try adding a second antibiotic that works well with Baytril against anaerobes, two would be Metronidazole and Clindamycin to see what the response is. Another possibility that would also have to be considered if aggressive antibiotic therapy failed would be cancer, in the end this is what my bird had and was diagnosed through an endoscopic liver biopsy, but my vet before this was diagnosed said he seen birds with unattributable ascites respond to aggressive antibiotic therapy. This is even more a possibility with hens as they can get reproductive infections, that are not egg yolk peritonitis related, that are sometimes hard to diagnose and sometimes problematic to treat effectively in finding the med or combination of meds to clear the infection, two good combinations for this are Baytril and Metronidazole and TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) and Metronidazole.
> 
> The Baytril and Metronidazole was the second step in AB therapy, Baytril alone was the first tried, and when these therapies did not provide the results we were looking for we eventually moved on to 5 days of injections with Amikacin (a really big gun in the antibiotics for birds world), which also failed, before a firm diagnosis was finally made, through a biopsy as mentioned. During this whole time, even though my bird was on Furosemide, and it did help by the way, I still had to have abdominal fluid drained a number of times to ease my bird's breathing, and the relief was always immediate.
> 
> ...


Karyn,
Our pigeon is at the vet's right now...she has only increased by 2gm in weight since last week, by their weighing her, so he thinks the ascites is now somewhat under control with the furosemide. He plans to x-ray her, removing any remaining fluid only if he cannot see clearly. Then he may use barium to add clarity to the x-ray to see if he can diagnose what is causing the fluid to build up. The culture (over a week now) has shown no growth and he said the avian specialist he spoke with had never seen a bird with so much fluid buildup. The next step if she survives today's tests would be either just continuing with antibiotics and furosemide and anti-inflammatory I guess, or doing an endoscopy or open surgery to find out what is wrong. Thank you for your quick response. I will ask the vet about your suggested treatments. He said pigeons are tough creatures, so I hope she will be OK after today's diagnostics. She is a really wonderful, loving bird.--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

cwebster said:


> Karyn,
> Our pigeon is at the vet's right now...she has only increased by 2gm in weight since last week, by their weighing her, so he thinks the ascites is now somewhat under control with the furosemide. He plans to x-ray her, removing any remaining fluid only if he cannot see clearly. Then he may use barium to add clarity to the x-ray to see if he can diagnose what is causing the fluid to build up. The culture (over a week now) has shown no growth and he said the avian specialist he spoke with had never seen a bird with so much fluid buildup. The next step if she survives today's tests would be either just continuing with antibiotics and furosemide and anti-inflammatory I guess, or doing an endoscopy or open surgery to find out what is wrong. Thank you for your quick response. I will ask the vet about your suggested treatments. He said pigeons are tough creatures, so I hope she will be OK after today's diagnostics. She is a really wonderful, loving bird.--Cindy


Cindy, if she has increased only 2 grams over a week, I am not sure how this small gain can be attributed solely to the ascites, two grams is roughly 2mL, when my bird had paracentesis done they were taking 15-20mL at a time out of him and still leaving a good amount behind because it can be dangerous for them to take too much fluids at once out of them (they can go into hypovolemic shock). Over a week my bird was adding 15-20 grams.

If you are accurate with the small amounts you are talking about, I would try adjusting the antibiotic meds she is receiving and amounts first, as an endoscopic biopsy is not without risks (plus they need to have a target in mind), if she is just collecting very small amounts of fluids, and it is being controlled for now, I would be thinking of continuing with the oral or trying parenteral (injectable) therapy with antibiotics ( I would add in the Metronidazole) to see if she responds more first, or give the present therapy more time to see if she continues to further improve.

How is she doing with her food and water, any issues with her vomiting?

Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Karyn,
We just picked up our girl bird. She is not doing very well. She is very puffed up. The vet x-rayed her and said initially the x-ray showed a larger than normal area all around her liver, and he could not be sure why she did not show the usual "hourglass" shape on x-ray. He removed 22 more cc of fluid, then gave her barium. She vomited up a lot of the barium after a couple of hours; only a small amount transited through her intestines. He said the transit time for her passing it was way too long even for a bird who was sedated. The x-ray with contrast showed some "opaque" areas but he cannot tell whether they are something having to do with liver, ovary, or intestine. After a couple of hours after the removal of the fluid, she began having very loose brown, bloody diarrhea. He said he does not think he hit anything when removing the fluid so the blood may be due to whatever is causing the severe inflammation she has. The 22cc of fluid he removed was again yellow with lots of inflammatory cells. He did not see any egg on x-ray. She came home, drank some water, but is just sitting on the cage floor looking very unhappy. We thought she'd rather be home tonight rather than staying at the vet's because he said there is not much he can do if she starts bleeding more, except for opening her up. He did give us some metronidazole to give her, to add to the Baytril, furosemide, and antiinflammatory (mobic). I am very worried about her. The next step if she survives and stabilizes would be doing endoscopy or open surgery. Our vet is very good, an avian, cat, and exotic animal specialist. However, the nearest avian specialists are several hours away. Will keep you posted. Thank you so very much for your comments. We will ask him about the things you are recommending. It really helps to hear from somebody who has been through similar things! I just hope she is going to recover from all of today's trauma and that she does not have liver or ovary cancer.--Cindy


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Is she still receiving the anti-inflammatory ? At least that might give her some pain relief in the meantime. What anti0inflammatory is it, BTW ?

...hang in there, all of you. Sending my best vibes and wishes.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Is she still receiving the anti-inflammatory ? At least that might give her some pain relief in the meantime. What anti0inflammatory is it, BTW ?
> 
> ...hang in there, all of you. Sending my best vibes and wishes.


meloxicam is the antiinflammatory medication she's taking for inflammation and pain. I just held her for four hours and she looks a tiny bit better...likes being with her "flock"! We're just praying she keeps on trying until we can find out what's wrong. Thank you for your good vibes and wishes!
--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, when they are like this, without a diagnosis in hand, it is very hard, because you do not know what you are up against or even how to effectively treat it. You missed answering my question on an extended culture test for the fluid they they withdrew from her, did they do a "culture all" for an extended time. I would not mind going over the doses of the Baytril and Metronidazole she is on, what strength and how much how often? Also you did not answer on how she is doing with her food and water and if she is vomiting (outside of a today as a reaction to what she was going through).

Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Cindy, when they are like this, without a diagnosis in hand, it is very hard, because you do not know what you are up against or even how to effectively treat it. You missed answering my question on an extended culture test for the fluid they they withdrew from her, did they do a "culture all" for an extended time. I would not mind going over the doses of the Baytril and Metronidazole she is on, what strength and how much how often? Also you did not answer on how she is doing with her food and water and if she is vomiting (outside of a today as a reaction to what she was going through).
> 
> Karyn


Karyn,
Somehow I hit the wrong button and my reply disappeared. Phoebe bird is starting to look better (grooming, eating a tiny bit, talking, playing a little). We sat up with her all night. Her meds are: Baytril .15cc bid, furosemide .08cc bid, meloxicam .05cc every morning, and metronidazole .13cc bid. Her poop has stopped being bloody and has been white (getting rid of the barium probably) and now has returned to runny though normal color. We just started the metronidazole. Nothing has grown from the all type bacterial culture, after more than a week, which has surprised our vet. The yellow fluid he removed was not egg yolk, just yellow with lots of inflammatory cells. The x-ray was not definitive. So I guess she's doing better than I would do after two aspirations of fluid, barium, x-rays, and stress, but we still don't know what is causing the ascites. We have eliminated her peanut treat (small amounts of ground human dry roasted peanuts) from her diet, to eliminate the salt and fat. She is getting her usual parakeet seed (she gets small seeds because she probably has a stricture in her neck from her original injury to her wings and throat; her head was kind of just hanging off, when she flew into the fan a couple of years ago). She has adamantly refused for years now to switch over to pelleted food from the vet's. She has not vomited except en route to and arriving at the vet's. Last night, she drank a lot of water a little at a time (probably to replace blood loss). We got some peanut flour (defatted and no salt) to sprinkle over her feed if she doesn't eat very much. So I guess we'll just have to keep supporting her and doing whatever we can to get her well until whatever she has resolves or we go to more antibiotics or endoscopy. She is too sick right now to mess more with today. So I'm just holding her extra lots, letting her sleep on my lap on a heating pad or in her cage with the space heater keeping the room nice and warm, reminding her what a special, pretty, wonderful bird she is and how loved she is. Let me know if you think any of the dosages are wrong on the meds. I appreciate your suggestions and support!--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, with my bird who had had cancer, the fluid drained did not really culture out anything as well, but unlike your bird's, my bird's was a slightly hazy/clear fluid. I want to mention to you that a bird's spent leukocytes, read bird pus caused by infection, tend to be yellowish in nature, so there could still be a chance, based on the color of the fluid, that the could be some kind of localized infection that did not culture out.

I glad you mentioned she is getting small seeds, as larger seeds can be problematic for them to process when there is pressure being placed on their digestive organs from the build up of abdominal fluid. Yes, you will just have to give her all the support (and love ) you can and I made the decision to try a number of different antibiotics before the biopsy as vet said there were both dangers in the procedure and from the anesthetic itself, especially in a weakened bird, so we decided to see if we could get a response before escalating to having the biopsy done.

I would be happy to go over the dosing and amounts for the meds you are giving, I know the different meds, but you will have to let me know the strength, as in how many "?"mg/mL the meds are formulated at.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Cindy, with my bird who had had cancer, the fluid drained did not really culture out anything as well, but unlike your bird's, my bird's was a slightly hazy/clear fluid. I want to mention to you that a bird's spent leukocytes, read bird pus caused by infection, tend to be yellowish in nature, so there could still be a chance, based on the color of the fluid, that the could be some kind of localized infection that did not culture out.
> 
> I glad you mentioned she is getting small seeds, as larger seeds can be problematic for them to process when there is pressure being placed on their digestive organs from the build up of abdominal fluid. Yes, you will just have to give her all the support (and love ) you can and I made the decision to try a number of different antibiotics before the biopsy as vet said there were both dangers in the procedure and from the anesthetic itself, especially in a weakened bird, so we decided to see if we could get a response before escalating to having the biopsy done.
> 
> ...


Hi, Karyn!
OK, her meds are as follows: metronidazole .13 cc 2x/day, 50 mg/ml; meloxicam .05cc every AM, at 1.5 mg/ml; furosemide, .08-.10cc 2x/day, at 5 mg/ml; and Baytril, .15cc 2x/day, at 20mg/ml. I don't know if I'm multiplying correctly, but I think, .13x2x50=13mg, .05x1.5=.075mg, .08x2x5=.8mg, and .15x2x20=6mg/day. If a cc=1ml? I used to know that conversion but have forgotten. 

I'm very sorry for the loss of your bird. You are obviously a great bird Mom!
--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Cindy, yes 1cc=1mL. Thanks for the info on the meds, I forgot to ask how much does you bird weight?

Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Hi Cindy, yes 1cc=1mL. Thanks for the info on the meds, I forgot to ask how much does you bird weight?
> 
> Karyn


Karyn,
She weighs 290 grams (after being drained of fluid). Before that, she weighed up to 338 grams. Her weight is still really fluctuating. I'm hoping she is not regaining all the fluid they just aspirated.--Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi cwebster,


When taking her for a ride in the Car, have her Cage undraped, and elevated for her Eye level to be the same as yours, so she can see out.

Otherwise, she may, or will, get Car Sick.


I can't tell if you missed my prior Post? Or..?

One never knows unless one asks.


Did the Vet examine the extracted fluid under a Microscope?


If this is an intersitial Trichomonal-Protozoal infestation/infection, I doubt anything would culture...but, you would be able to see the Organisms under a Micrsoscope.


Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi cwebster,
> 
> 
> When taking her for a ride in the Car, have her Cage undraped, and elevated for her Eye level to be the same as yours, so she can see out.
> ...


Hi, Phil!
We always let our bird ride in a carrier and I hold her and sing and talk to her because she definitely likes being "eye level," like you said.
The vet examined the fluid under a microscope but said all he sees are "inflammatory cells," which is the same thing the cytology report said before.
We just got a microscope and a book about parasites so will try to "float" her poop and see if we can see anything like trichomonas (the vet isn't back until Monday). I will also call him and ask him if he could see anything like protozoa. We are at a loss for what is wrong. She ate a little today, but spends much of her time (even when I hold her) puffing up and sleeping. I wonder if she has an obstruction near her crop (that might account for the way the barium didn't go down, even after a half hour, and she ended up upchucking it). The vet said he is going to ask an avian specialist to look at the x-rays and see if they can see anything else. Thank you for your concern and caring!--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, from what I can see from the numbers you posted two of meds look to be fine with their dosing amounts and schedule, the Meloxicam and the Furosemide. The Baytril @; .15cc 2x/day, at 20mg/ml, equals 3mg, twice a day, this would be by the book dosing, a total 6mg daily for a roughly 300g pigeon, but this is not what I would consider to be aggressive therapy, my bird was getting 8mg twice a day, 16mg a day. With the Metronidazole @ .13 cc 2x/day, 50 mg/ml, equals 6.5mg twice a day, for a total 13mg daily, for this med my bird was receiving 15mg, twice a day, 30mg a day.

Since you are in the care of a vet, it would be best to discuss being more aggressive in treatment, if this was your desire with him, as he will have complete lab results to determine is this would be possible. The amounts I mentioned for my bird were not really even super aggressive since his lab results for his liver function were not the best (he ended up having liver lymphoma).

At least this will give you some med numbers that another pigeon, that weighed roughly the same, was receiving. I hope it helps you a little, I know you are a great bird Mom too.

Cindy, the reason I have asked about vomiting a few times is that because of the compression of the GI organs, especially in my bird its ventriculus (gizzard), he reach a point where he could no longer eat seeds/solid food and I had to tube feed him to support him while he was in the worse part of his illness, the indication for this happening was he started to vomit his seeds back up. Before moving to tube feeding he was able to process pellets for a while, but then he started to not be able to process them, so we had to move to thin formulas. If your little one will eat pellets, they break down much quicker than seeds and will easier for her to digest right now, you can place some out with her small seeds.

Very slow GI motility may be expected in a bird that is having ascites issues, this was being reflected in the slowness of the barium moving through your bird. My bird had a barium series done as well, with remarks from the vet that it was extremely slow moving though him, but he did not vomit up any of the barium.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy,



If there are spent Leucocytes in the Fluid being drained form the Abdomen...I have to wonder if there is infection occuring in the interstitial regions, where, Oral Antibiotics are not going to do very well, and, a more direct approach, may.

You could feel the length of her Neck, a tiny area at a time ( so she can still Breathe, since this of course also compresses the same parallel section of her Trachia) , betwen finger tip pads, and, see if you can feel any enlargement anywhere along that portion of the Esophagus, anyway.


Can you post some images of her fresh poops?

And, of her also? 


Frankly, I am out of my depth with this sort of syndrome. I have never dealt with it, and I am not familiar with the aetiology of the varity of causes which could occasion it.


But, I am usually not too bad at some parts of basic reasoning, at least with things or extrapolates I am familiar with...so, I may as well try some of those on for size anyway.


Were there some Blood Tests done also? And, if so, do you recall what was said about them?


Lastly, do you know how to 'Tube Feed' and do you have appropriate Appliances to do so?


Might be helpful to her ( if you are not already, ) to provide good, unambigious supplimental Warmth if you can...Electric Heating Pad, under a Towel, for half her Cage Bottom...(so once it has been on for twenty minutes, if you press the underside of your wrist into it, you feel it to be definitely just a little warmer than your own body temp. Might need a mediumn or high setting, where, you would add or subtract a Towel layer to acheive the desired result, ) and drape the Cage on three sides and the top anyway, so not even a hint of any moving Air to rob the Warmth.




Phil
Lv


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, Phil!
I'll feel her neck and see if anything feels amiss.
They said all her lab values (liver, kidneys, blood counts) were fine.
We've been keeping her room (which houses her cage) at 75 degrees with a space heater. When I hold her outside the room, to keep her spirits up, I make sure the room is about 68-70 degrees and put a heating pad under her as she seems to like that, although she prefers to sit on my arm bone (her favorite perch is about that size and covered in carpet). I do put a towel under her now as her poops are pretty runny, with the diuretic. I do not know how to scan "poop" pictures but will ask my friend if he can help with that. Best wishes! --Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have a 'Warm Room I sometimes use...and I keep it around 105 Degrees at elbow level.

Up high it is likely 120, down low, in the low 90s or high 80s.


I might keep it only around 102 at elbow level...depending.

If the Bird is glassy eyed and 'panting', well, you know it is a mite too warm anyway...so back it down.


Otherwise, warm the heck out of them! It really helps!


Lol...


I'd keep her warmer than the '75 degree ambience, anyway, if I were you...I'd raise it to around 101 or so anyway.


Spin that meter!!


Space Heaters ( well, depends on what kind, but, most ) dessicate the Air also...so, slightly Humidify the Air if you can...


Has the Vet said anything about Liver troubles maybe being some of what is underlieing this situation?


If all the Blood Tests came back sowing nothing to remark upon...and, there are no Organisms present - or, detected anyway thus far - in the exudae or edema or acites or whatever it is which has been intermittently drained, even if there are spent Leucocytes suggesting immune-response to some sort of infection, or, an auto-immune response of some sort ( I still think this could be a weeeeeird Trichomoniasis deal with a locs occuring in an unusual place )...then, this kinda sorta starts sounding like it is maybe overlapping with what would be an osmosis sort of issue, or I forget the term, but, Cell structures not managing right tensions or Vapor or liquid barriers...and letting syrums or other specific gravities through.


If Dobato thinks it is okay, and your Vet things it is okay, I would think some supplimental Vitamin C ( Acerola or Rose Hip based ) might be helpful, regardless of what this is.


'Milk Thistle' ( Powder version would be fine ) also, might be helpful...as it is good for their little Livers, and, this might be a weird Liver illness of some sort, even a Virus possibly effecting the Liver or initiating an auto-immune issue involving/antagonising the Liver.

At least to my murky overtired mind, anyway...it might...




Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, as Phil says, what feels warm to us, will not necessarily be warm for a bird, she should be kept at around 85-90 degrees to help her conserve body reserves. The best way to do this is provide a heating pad as Phil instructs:



> _Might be helpful to her ( if you are not already, ) to provide good, unambiguous supplemental Warmth if you can...Electric Heating Pad, under a Towel, for half her Cage Bottom...(so once it has been on for twenty minutes, if you press the underside of your wrist into it, you feel it to be definitely just a little warmer than your own body temp. Might need a medium or high setting, where, you would add or subtract a Towel layer to achieve the desired result, ) and drape the Cage on three sides and the top anyway, so not even a hint of any moving Air to rob the warmth_.


Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> I have a 'Warm Room I sometimes use...and I keep it around 105 Degrees at elbow level.
> 
> Up high it is likely 120, down low, in the low 90s or high 80s.
> 
> ...


Phil,
I'll up the temperature in the "bird room" and put a dish of water near the cage to humidify it. Plus I'll ask the vet about adding milk thistle and vit. C. Thanks for your suggestions!--Cindy


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Yes, as Phil says, what feels warm to us, will not necessarily be warm for a bird, she should be kept at around 85-90 degrees to help her conserve body reserves. The best way to do this is provide a heating pad as Phil instructs:
> 
> 
> 
> Karyn


Karyn,
I'll try putting the heading pad under a pad of newspapers in half of her cage. She's spending most of her time on the floor of the cage but has been much more lively off and on today, jumping up on her perch and when I take her out and hold her and coo to her, she has been checking things out in the room. She has become very spoiled (eating out of a cup and drinking out of a cup intermittently). At times, she takes breaks though (stands on one foot, closes her eyes and sleeps). Every time she opens her eyes, I tell her how much I love her and sing to her. So I hope she is recovering from the trauma of the abdominocentesis. Now we just have to cure whatever is causing that! She has gained 2 gm since she came home from the vet and 1 gm today; I hope this is not retained fluid. I know she had to replace the blood she lost in her feces at the vet's though, so we have let her have free access to food and water. She's getting metronidazole now in addition to the antibiotic, antiinflammatory, and diuretic, so I'm hoping for the best.--Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy,


Very glad to hear she is feeling better.

Any hunches on which Med is helping most, or..?



Toss the News-Papers, those are no good for several reasons...use a few layers of plain White Paper Towels instead, or, best of all, use Light Color or White Cloth Towels. Like a Hand Towelk, or cut up an old Bath Towel.


Even all the more so, if using a Heating Pad under half the Cage floor, or on half the Cage Floor...to then have one or possibly two layers of real, actual Hand Towel over it.


No more Newspapers please...they are good insulation which prevent warmth from getting through, as well as being a mold and fungus growth-media once damp, and toxic ink and Mercury, and on and on and on...



What had her diet been? Prior to this difficulty with these fluids building up?

And, how long have you had her?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> 
> Very glad to hear she is feeling better.
> ...


Phil,
I will replace the newspapers with hand towels or put them over the papers (her cage is huge).
We have had Phoebe for at least two years I think, maybe three. She was a rescue (flew into a fan twice, taken to the vet, then I took her after the wildlife rescue people said they didn't do pigeons, "too common, not really wild"). She has been on a diet of Ecotrin parakeet seed, Kaytee Forti-Diet Orange Blossom Honey Treat (a little per day), and ground dry roasted peanuts (a little per day as a treat). We have stopped giving her the peanuts now because of the salt. She is a very picky eater (flings seed everywhere and picks out certain ones and eats those). We have been unable to switch her to pelleted foods and now that she is sick, we've been continuing what she is used to. We are considering adding raw peanut flour (a tiny bit of dust) to her food if she won't eat because it is partially defatted and unsalted.

I don't know which meds are helping yet, although she seems more "bright eyed and bushy tailed" today, maybe because the vet has now removed over 50 cc of fluid! Her weight is fluctuating (was 295g today, 298 last night).

She is a very loving, affectionate, and demanding bird who we really love so I hope the meds are working now. She does seem to really like the extra warmth but also seems desperate for social interaction.--Cindy


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

cwebster said:


> Phil,
> I will replace the newspapers with hand towels or put them over the papers (her cage is huge).
> We have had Phoebe for at least two years I think, maybe three. She was a rescue (flew into a fan twice, taken to the vet, then I took her after the wildlife rescue people said they didn't do pigeons, "too common, not really wild"). She has been on a diet of Ecotrin parakeet seed, Kaytee Forti-Diet Orange Blossom Honey Treat (a little per day), and ground dry roasted peanuts (a little per day as a treat). We have stopped giving her the peanuts now because of the salt. She is a very picky eater (flings seed everywhere and picks out certain ones and eats those). We have been unable to switch her to pelleted foods and now that she is sick, we've been continuing what she is used to. We are considering adding raw peanut flour (a tiny bit of dust) to her food if she won't eat because it is partially defatted and unsalted.
> 
> ...


Phil,
Also, I ordered some Rowdy Bush pelleted food at the feed store which they said pigeons like, which can be crumbled. Maybe I can try to get her to eat that too, in an attempt to get her on more grain-like feed. What do you feed your birds?--Cindy


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

*Update on Phoebe Bird:* 
Phoebe (who has had fluid aspirated twice from her abdomen) seems to be doing a little better. She is eating and drinking and interacting more and can fly a little bit. She still seems very very tired and every few minutes, closes her eyes and rests, but seems to be breathing just fine. She is maintaining her weight at 300 gm. She is still on Baytril, Metronidazole, furosemide, and meloxicam. The antibiotics run out Thursday so am unsure whether to continue them or ask to switch to another one. Her droppings seem watery (probably due to the furosemide) but normal in color except for occasional tan "pellety" looking ones (tiny, like she is passing a thin stream of feces). I am going to be away for a week and my significant other is looking after her. He loves her like I do and will give her the best of care. Am hoping for the best, that her ascites do not recur, because the next step would be a stronger antibiotic or endoscopy probably. Thank you to everyone who gave suggestions on her. I'm hoping all the extra love and care will get her back to health soon!--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, some of of what is going on with your bird is objective, in the sense that your vet has results on a number of tests he has run, so future results can be compared and conclusions drawn about where the numbers are. But some of what is going on is subjective, in that Phoebe is your bird and you can tell by how she is acting, and looking, whether she is feeling a little worse, or better, and I am glad to hear you say you feel she is a little better.

If you think things are slowly getting better on the plan she is on, then continue, until she shows you other than this. Without wanting to step on the vets toes, for now the one med I think you could increase a bit is the Metronidazole, from .13cc (6.5mg) twice a day, to .20cc (10mg) twice a day.

If you do end up want to make a change in meds or have any questions, I will be happy to help you the best I can, Just keep doing what you are doing and good luck with her.

Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Cindy, some of of what is going on with your bird is objective, in the sense that your vet has results on a number of tests he has run, so future results can be compared and conclusions drawn about where the numbers are. But some of what is going on is subjective, in that Phoebe is your bird and you can tell by how she is acting, and looking, whether she is feeling a little worse, or better, and I am glad to hear you say you feel she is a little better.
> 
> If you think things are slowly getting better on the plan she is on, then continue, until she shows you other than this. Without wanting to step on the vets toes, for now the one med I think you could increase a bit is the Metronidazole, from .13cc (6.5mg) twice a day, to .20cc (10mg) twice a day.
> 
> ...


Karyn,
I'm away from home for a week, but the vet called my friend (who is caring for the bird while I'm away) while we were waiting at the airport. The vet said he spoke with other vets including one he really trusts (who is several hours away from us). They said the x-ray suggests a mass near her liver, probably an oviduct, and that she needs open abdominal surgery (not endoscopy) because the problem is likely to be complicated. They said to tell for sure they need to either open her up or find some way to get her to a place that does CT or MRI scans. We do not know what to do, as the nearest vet (who we've been going to) said he has done a couple of those open surgeries, while the real experts are some distance away. Either way, travel and/or surgery, is very risky. Last night, Phoebe put on more weight, back to 300 gm. I am not there to baby her so I am very worried about her. We told him we would think about what to do and research the situation and get back to him by the end of the week. Do you have any experience with bird "scans"? I remember that you said that your poor bird had cancer. I'm afraid that may be what Phoebe has. We have had her about four years, we figured out, and she was a young bird when we got her (although not a baby). Thanks!--Cindy


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, if it is an infected oviduct, then it before opening her up it may be worthwhile considering making a switch in her primary antibiotic from Baytril, to TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) there have been report of good response in treating reproductive problems with this antibiotic, including myself, where one of my hens developed a reproductive infection that responded very well to treatment with the is med, and had not had a problem since and that was 1 1/2 years ago (the Metronidazole would still be given as well). There was no mass indicated in my bird, just the showing of an enlarged liver, that the vets still thought might be an infection related, thats the reason we did the biopsy, to see if a pathogen could be isolated, but it came back as cancer. What area of the country do you live in, by the way.

You can do a little reading on an oviduct problem here: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

Karyn


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Cindy, if it is an infected oviduct, then it before opening her up it may be worthwhile considering making a switch in her primary antibiotic from Baytril, to TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) there have been report of good response in treating reproductive problems with this antibiotic, including myself, where one of my hens developed a reproductive infection that responded very well to treatment with the is med, and had not had a problem since and that was 1 1/2 years ago (the Metronidazole would still be given as well). There was no mass indicated in my bird, just the showing of an enlarged liver, that the vets still thought might be an infection related, thats the reason we did the biopsy, to see if a pathogen could be isolated, but it came back as cancer. What area of the country do you live in, by the way.
> 
> You can do a little reading on an oviduct problem here: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html
> 
> Karyn


Karyn,
we live in San Luis Obispo CA (central coast), several hours from UC Davis, Bay area, etc. 

I will ask about switching to TMP instead of Baytril (which runs out Thursday anyway).

Thanks!
--Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Have seen a few with oviduct problems present with similar symptoms to yours. Some antibiotics are better at penetrating refractory (hard to get rid of) colonies of bacteria, and some work in different tissues better. I've had better luck with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combos and Metronidazole (always good for abdominal infections) regarding those kinds of things.

Pidgey


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Have seen a few with oviduct problems present with similar symptoms to yours. Some antibiotics are better at penetrating refractory (hard to get rid of) colonies of bacteria, and some work in different tissues better. I've had better luck with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combos and Metronidazole (always good for abdominal infections) regarding those kinds of things.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey,
The vet has been unable to culture anything from the abdominal fluid, but will ask him about changing her to trimethoprim/sulfa and metronidazole when the Baytril runs out tomorrow. Thanks!
--Cindy


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi cwebster,
> 
> 
> When taking her for a ride in the Car, have her Cage undraped, and elevated for her Eye level to be the same as yours, so she can see out.
> ...


Phil,
We have a microscope, got a book about parasites in reptiles and birds, got some special stains, and will check out her poop.
I am not at home, but my significant other (taking care of Phoebe) said her weight has been going up, back to 315g (was 290 after the vet "drained" her). He is going to talk to the vet about changing antibiotics tomorrow etc. She is not at the maximum weight she had when she had breathing problems (348 g I think). But we are considering what to do....we don't know whether to go to our local (40 minute away) vet who is good, and let him again drain fluid and do open surgery, or chance taking her 3 or 4 hours away to a place like UC Davis vet school (where they have the ability to MRI/CT scan to see what is going on and do surgery if necessary). She is very special. Right now he said her behavior, appetite, and breathing are good. But the consultant vet who saw the x-ray said they saw a mass. So we are flipping coins and trying to decide what to do.--Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

cwebster said:


> Pidgey,
> The vet has been unable to culture anything from the abdominal fluid, but will ask him about changing her to trimethoprim/sulfa and metronidazole when the Baytril runs out tomorrow. Thanks!
> --Cindy


Fairly often, you can't culture anything from fine-needle aspirates (like the drawn-off liquid taken out of the abdomen) because there's nothing in the actual fluid. In such cases, the refractory bacterial colony (if there is one) is stuck to some tissue somewhere and the body fighting it is why the fluid builds up in those spaces. Since the fluid is pretty heavy with antibodies and other immune products, it's pretty common for it to be relatively clean. In order to actually find the bacterial colony(ies) responsible, you'd have to actually pull out a sliver of the tissue they're stuck to and then culture them in conditions that they specifically want. That said, it's usually a guessing-game or a trial-and-error treatment regimen. Best of luck!

Pidgey


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