# Disappointing Day



## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

I came home from work to find my biggest, healthiest looking bird lying on his back dead. He had been eating well, drinking well, very active, flirting with the hens up until this morning. It must have happened minutes before I arrived this afternoon. He was still warm.

Has anyone had this happen? A five month old apparently healthy bird, just die?


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Yes it happens just like in humans. Sorry for your loss. Jim


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, I've had it happen to a couple of my pigeons and a couple of my big roosters. Also one of my turkeys (broad breasted, so doomed to poor health  ). Not sure what happens exactly but I would assume heart attacks.


Edit: 5 months old is pretty young though. That's odd. There are some diseases that can cause rapid death in young birds (squeakers usually) but he'd be almost an adult at 5 months. Weird.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Birds are very good at hiding illness, it's a survival instinct. Sometimes by the time you notice things aren't right, whatever they have has progressed and they go down quickly. What did his poops look like? Could you feel the breast bone? I would watch the other birds closely for symptoms........Just sitting around or puffed up, not coming down to eat right away, poops. Have the birds ever been dewormed? Do you have any meds on hand?


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> Birds are very good at hiding illness, it's a survival instinct. Sometimes by the time you notice things aren't right, whatever they have has progressed and they go down quickly. What did his poops look like? Could you feel the breast bone? I would watch the other birds closely for symptoms........Just sitting around or puffed up, not coming down to eat right away, poops. Have the birds ever been dewormed? Do you have any meds on hand?


I have definitely seen the "puffed up and not coming down to eat" symptom in the past, but that was not the case this time. All of the birds were de-wormed about three weeks ago. Yesterday was their third day of the recommended seven days of Avio 4 in 1. I am just providing it as a preventative measure before winter.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird;620632[B said:


> ]Birds are very good at hiding illness, it's a survival instinct. Sometimes by the time you notice things aren't right, whatever they have has progressed and they go down quickly. [/B]What did his poops look like? Could you feel the breast bone? I would watch the other birds closely for symptoms........Just sitting around or puffed up, not coming down to eat right away, poops. Have the birds ever been dewormed? Do you have any meds on hand?




Have to agree that sometimes they don't show it when they are sick, until they are really sick. Would you have noticed if he wasn't eating? Easy to miss that.


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Have to agree that sometimes they don't show it when they are sick, until they are really sick. Would you have noticed if he wasn't eating? Easy to miss that.


At this point I have less than a dozen birds so I do notice if one of them is not eating. I make a point of putting the food in the tray and making sure that everyone is at the tray jockeying for position. If one of the birds is hanging around in a corner or on a perch, I make note of it. If it happens the next time they are fed, that bird will be isolated and monitored.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Granny Smith said:


> I have definitely seen the "puffed up and not coming down to eat" symptom in the past, but that was not the case this time. All of the birds were de-wormed about three weeks ago. Yesterday was their third day of the recommended seven days of *Avio 4 in 1.* I am just providing it as a preventative measure before winter.


I'm not familiar with Avio 4 in 1. Whats in it? Maybe there was some type of drug reaction. 
The 4 in 1 meds are not the greatest thing to use. It's best to treat with the appropriate medication for a specified illness.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Avio Products - New England Pigeon Supply
www.nepigeonsupplies.com/avio_products.htm
AVIO 4 IN 1. A broad spectrum, safe powder for the treatment of salmonella, e-coli, coccidiosis and trichomoniasis. Contains a higher percentage of ronidazole ...


Maybe he did have a reaction to something in the med?


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Avio Products - New England Pigeon Supply
> www.nepigeonsupplies.com/avio_products.htm
> AVIO 4 IN 1. A broad spectrum, safe powder for the treatment of salmonella, e-coli, coccidiosis and trichomoniasis. Contains a higher percentage of ronidazole ...
> 
> ...



I would have thought that was a possibility if it was the first time I used the product with these particular birds, but it was not. It has never been a problem with him or any of the others.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I would recommend getting there droppings checked. I have been doing it for a while now and my birds are the healthiest they have ever been. I only medicate for what they have. I come to believe in it so much that I just bought a microscope to learn how to do it in house.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I would recommend getting there droppings checked. I have been doing it for a while now and my birds are the healthiest they have ever been. I only medicate for what they have. I come to believe in it so much that I just bought a microscope to learn how to do it in house.


Gee, that's great. I would love to be able to do that as well. You could check them as often as you like. That would be really interesting.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Jay3, I have a daughter and sister that are vet techs so I will have some guidance. I'm not sure I would attempt it without some one to show me the ropes.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think it'll be great when you learn how.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Me to, It will save me some money I already spent 60 dollars in the last 5 months. The microscope only cost 213 dollars so It will pay for itself in no time It will even save on meds if you think about it, you will only have to medicate when needed. This is it

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400252008325&_trksid=p2992.m753


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Nice! Better to medicate only when needed anyway I think. Let us know how it goes.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Jay3, I have a daughter and sister that are vet techs so I will have some guidance. I'm not sure I would attempt it without some one to show me the ropes.


Floats looking for parasites is easy, I do mine all the time myself at work. I've been a vet tech for about 39 years! But do they know how to do gram stains and cultures? Vet tech's don't usually. Those are the most important. If they do, that's great and you'll save a ton of money! I send my samples out to the lab mostly for 'culture & sensitivity' (gram stain is included in that test). Bacteria is very difficult to identify to the untrained eye. That is not something a vet tech is taught. That's a 'lab technicians' specialty.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Me to, It will save me some money I already spent 60 dollars in the last 5 months. The microscope only cost 213 dollars so It will pay for itself in no time It will even save on meds if you think about it, you will only have to medicate when needed. This is it
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400252008325&_trksid=p2992.m753


The book(let) Problem Droppings Explained, has excellent examples of what looks like what with a X400 magnification. The shipping is unfortunately almost as much as the book but IMHO worth it for the information you will have at your finger tips. Take care.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok Thanks rpalmer


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> Floats looking for parasites is easy, I do mine all the time myself at work. I've been a vet tech for about 39 years! But do they know how to do gram stains and cultures? Vet tech's don't usually. Those are the most important. If they do, that's great and you'll save a ton of money! I send my samples out to the lab mostly for 'culture & sensitivity' (gram stain is included in that test). Bacteria is very difficult to identify to the untrained eye. That is not something a vet tech is taught. That's a 'lab technicians' specialty.


I talked to my daughter and she knows all that stuff. She is a large animal vet tech and an anesthesiologist and went to collage for 4 years so i guess that was in with the schooling. She did say that I would need a lot more equipment if you weren't in a lab for cultures and gram stains. I don't think the guy I'm using now does that, because he calls you the same night he gets the sample.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I talked to my daughter and she knows all that stuff. She is a large animal vet tech and an anesthesiologist and went to collage for 4 years so i guess that was in with the schooling. She did say that I would need a lot more equipment if you weren't in a lab for cultures and gram stains. I don't think the guy I'm using now does that, because he calls you the same night he gets the sample.


We do gram stains at work, they don't take long and that IS something you could learn to do.  Culture & Sensitivity takes days. You have to 'grow' the bacteria, identify it, then test the different antibiotics to see what it sensitive too  It's easier (and cheaper) for me to send it out to the lab....we only have to pay 20% of the retail price. Your lucky she can do this for you, it can get very pricy!
I'm a surgery/anesthesia tech (small animal - dogs, cats mostly), and we don't do alot of birds. That's why I depend on PT!!!


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

That's great. My sister works at the biggest small animal clinic in our town and my daughter worked there for a while and still does on the weekends when she comes home. She works at the Virginia tech equine center in leesburg Virginia. I think she does what you do I think she's a rad tech to, anyway my sister does the supply ordering there and said she would order me any supplies i need, so I got that part covered.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Granny, Did you figure out what happened to your bird? Did you get the droppings tested? I think its important that you do, I have received birds 4 times in the last year from top show breeders and everyone was sick. I had the droppings tested and medicated for only what they had and had no problems introducing them to the other birds. If I wouldn't have done that all my birds would have had, e coli, cocci, spiral stomach worms respiratory infection. and they also had mites, so you can see its very important to test.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Granny, Did you figure out what happened to your bird? Did you get the droppings tested? I think its important that you do, I have received birds 4 times in the last year from top show breeders and everyone was sick. I had the droppings tested and medicated for only what they had and had no problems introducing them to the other birds. If I wouldn't have done that all my birds would have had, e coli, cocci, spiral stomach worms respiratory infection. and they also had mites, so you can see its very important to test.


 Those are the very basic illnesses that effect pigeons in general and one should always be treating their newbirds for these things that are in quarenteen anyways ,thats the very reason why new birds should always go into quarenteen to begin with before ever being introduced into the loft and your birds .


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

That true but you should only medicate for what they have, Like worming hard on the birds so why put them through that if its not necessary. These last birds i got had spiral stomach worms which you don't see often and most wormer's won't work on them, so if I used the normal wormer, they would still have worms, and give it to all my birds. I know the birds have a certain amount of those things but the test tells you the count and you know how bad it is. Its 10 bucks a test the best ten bucks you could spend, and the meds that have a lot of different meds together don't have enough of any meds to take care of the problem, there more for preventative.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> That true but you should only medicate for what they have, Like worming hard on the birds so why put them through that if its not necessary. These last birds i got had spiral stomach worms which you don't see often and most wormer's won't work on them, so if I used the normal wormer, they would still have worms, and give it to all my birds. I know the birds have a certain amount of those things but the test tells you the count and you know how bad it is. Its 10 bucks a test the best ten bucks you could spend, and the meds that have a lot of different meds together don't have enough of any meds to take care of the problem, there more for preventative.


 What are these spiral worms you speak of???? pigeons have Roundworms, Hairworms, Gapeworms, and Tapeworms and should be treated for them at least 2 times a year reguardless of what you find in one bird in your loft .The other basics such as canker, coccidia and ecoli should also be treated for in any birds new to your loft no matter what you find in a fecal sample it just makes good sense in keeping your birds safe and healthy,why take any chances with new birds ?


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Why medicate when its not needed. Look up spiral stomach worms worm out gel takes care of them, this is some of what you learn by sending your dropping out.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Why medicate when its not needed. Look up spiral stomach worms worm out gel takes care of them, this is some of what you learn by sending your dropping out.


 Hmm you sound like you know nothing about them yourself? They are the same ones I suggested you treat for  And why wouldnt you treat for the basics when a fecal isnt going to tell you what illnesses your birds are carrying? Be smart and save yourself the heart ache .


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

PigeonVilla just doesn't get and will not change his mind.

It's too bad that a top breeder would send out sick birds. I have imported problems by not quarantining a new bird.

There is one pigeon person in particular that if I ever see trying to sell a bird on this forum I will have much to say. None of it good. Take care. I think I'm going to make some calls and find a vet to do testing for me.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Why medicate when its not needed. Look up spiral stomach worms worm out gel takes care of them, this is some of what you learn by sending your dropping out.


I had to look up 'spiral stomach worm' also  I've never heard a Roundworm called that before! It is next to impossible to clear all birds in a loft situation of roundworms, so they should be treated at least twice a year....I use pyrantel because its safe and effective.
I agree one should treat and use the right medication for a specific problem (not these '4 in 1' meds), but alot of things can be brought out due to stress (ie. shipping). New birds should always be quarantined before going into a new loft. I don't automatically treat every new quarantined bird.....I monitor them to see IF they need to be treated for anything, but I DO deworm them with pyrantel. It won't hurt them.
I don't do 'floats' (looking for internal parasites) on my birds, I just routinely deworm them. A 'float' in this neck of the woods costs roughly $30. for a regular client. I can read my own, but why bother when I routinely treat them. 
When a bird is 'down', you get more information with a culture & sensitivity. You know exactly what bacteria they have and what to treat it with. But, to the regular client, a C&S costs roughly $160. around here!


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

rpalmer said:


> PigeonVilla just doesn't get and will not change his mind.
> 
> It's too bad that a top breeder would send out sick birds. I have imported problems by not quarantining a new bird.
> 
> There is one pigeon person in particular that if I ever see trying to sell a bird on this forum I will have much to say. None of it good. Take care. I think I'm going to make some calls and find a vet to do testing for me.


I know what your saying some people don't get it. All I do is tell my experiences and hope people learn from it. Thats how i learned from listening to everyone on here. Every bird has e coli, cocci and other things but its the count or amount that they have. I just had a bird checked that had 6 count e coli and 8 count cocci, one a month ago that had over 1000 count e coli and over 600 count cocci, now which bird do you think should be treated. I believe in it so much I just bought my own microscope to learn to do my own testing, with the help of my daughter and sister who are vet techs. I'm putting my birds in the shows now and I want them healthy, because they will be right there beside the birds from the lofts that the sick birds came from. I just talked to one guy that I got a sick bird from a while back and he was saying he couldn't figure why his birds were dieing. I ask him if he ever test or medicated his birds and his answer was i don't know anything about that stuff and this was coming from a top show guy that's probably been showing birds for 20 years. I guess if you raise enough birds a few dead one don't matter,he buys over 200 bands a year.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Acuria spiralis 
"Spiral stomachworm" - 10 mm - nematode parasites found in wall of Proventriculus and Esophagus - rarely intestine.

In fowl, turkey, pigeon, guinea fowl, pheasant 

Condors have a sinous course and are recurrent but do nto anastomose.

Intermdiate host: 
Isopods (Porcello laevis, P. scaber)

Pathogenesis: 
Deep ulcers are observed in severe infections with the anterior end of worms embedded. Extensive destruction of glands produced. This parasite causes rapid weight loss - inspite of a voracious appetite. Birds become weak and anemic.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Me to, It will save me some money I already spent 60 dollars in the last 5 months. The microscope only cost 213 dollars so It will pay for itself in no time It will even save on meds if you think about it, you will only have to medicate when needed. This is it
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400252008325&_trksid=p2992.m753


I do fecal floats all the time ,its not as easy as you think its going to be to see what the real underlying illnesses your birds have by using just a microscope but good luck .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Ordering one as we type . Thinking about " Birdman Of Alctraz (sp) ...... he learned by books and trial and error . Not saying I would just go about willy nilly experimenting . Volunteer at the vets and maybe get some basic guidance in return . Worms would be easy enough to learn by a book . Bacteria , different story , did have a couple of courses of microbiology when I studied allied sciences . Know how to stain for gram + and - bacterias and grow cultures .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I do fecal floats all the time ,its not as easy as you think its going to be to see what the real underlying illnesses your birds have by using just a microscope but good luck .
***************************************************************
Still think it would be interesting to have a go at it , wouldn't you say ?


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Birds said:


> I do fecal floats all the time ,its not as easy as you think its going to be to see what the real underlying illnesses your birds have by using just a microscope but good luck .
> ***************************************************************
> Still think it would be interesting to have a go at it , wouldn't you say ?


 Yes its definiately worth a try ,worms are easy like you said but the rest ,you will soon find out many things look very simular under the scope.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Wow pigeonvilla, After all the post sounding like your against testing you say you do them all the time. Must be a reason for that. I have two vet techs in the family and a friend that is a avian vet. I think that will make it easier for me. I may not have tried it if not for that.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I just think it would be very interesting . May learn a thing or two . Just to learn or see the different kinds of worms that the birds may be pooping would be worth it to me . I have become that passionate about learning more about the pigeon . rplamer , think I will get that book you mentioned as well .


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

That's great Birds, Good luck. I know its not going to be easy but I'm up to the challenge. There's 2 books, I asked Santa for them, I hope he comes through, My sister is getting me all the supplies i need, They will be here Mon. I haven't taken mine out of the box yet, I'm waiting for my wife to clean out the spare bedroom / lab.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thats great Birds, Good luck. I know its not going to be easy but i'm up to the challenge.
*******************************************************************
Thanks and the same to you !


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Birds, What kind are you getting?


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

The same one you got . I like the bi -nocular mechanics of it .


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Wow pigeonvilla, After all the post sounding like your against testing you say you do them all the time. Must be a reason for that. I have two vet techs in the family and a friend that is a avian vet. I think that will make it easier for me. I may not have tried it if not for that.


 I never said I dont do fecals but I did and do say I would still treat new birds for canker,worms and cocci unpon arrival . When stressed, a birds immunity goes down and the canker and cocci can get the best of them so I like to take that out of the equation . That and I dust all birds for mites as well !


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Pigeonvilla ,
What do you use to dust with ?


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Birds said:


> The same one you got . I like the bi -nocular mechanics of it .


 It's really nice and i think its worth the amount we payed. There is some assembly you have to put the binocular top on and the eye pieces and the lenses, Its easy. There is some calibrations to do but with the instruction book it sounds easy. my wife said she would get the camera and the cord to hook it up to my laptop for christmas. I think that will make it more interesting to look at things.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Birds said:


> Pigeonvilla ,
> What do you use to dust with ?


What do you mean?


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Birds said:


> Pigeonvilla ,
> What do you use to dust with ?


 Just your basic poultry dust, same as this link below but I get it at the feed store or sometimes walmart has it too.
http://www.amazon.com/Prozap-Garden-Poultry-Dust-8-75/dp/B001BM4JLM


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Oh wow , yeah if you could view it on your computer screen , that would make things really interesting ! Guess I'll have to drop a hint to my wife ! lol


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks Pigeonvilla ,
Never seen this one , I have used Sevin dust .


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Birds said:


> Thanks Pigeonvilla ,
> Never seen this one , I have used Sevin dust .


 Its pretty much the same thing so you are right on track .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I know this ain't the right place to talk about football , but I sure hope my LSU tigers roll over Bama .


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I don't dust with anything. I spray my birds with pyrethrin spray. I just sprayed mine today because there's pigeon shows the next 2 weekends. Sorry I didn't see the post with you asking pigeonvlla.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Birds said:


> Oh wow , yeah if you could view it on your computer screen , that would make things really interesting ! Guess I'll have to drop a hint to my wife ! lol


 There not that expensive around 100 bucks or less, depending on the mp you get. Tell her your eye site is getting bad and hope she doesn't make you go for an eye exam LOL


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Birds said:


> I just think it would be very interesting . May learn a thing or two . Just to learn or see the different kinds of worms that the birds may be pooping would be worth it to me . I have become that passionate about learning more about the pigeon . rplamer , think I will get that book you mentioned as well .


You won't regret it.


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