# genetic question about highflyer colour



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hi guys! I've been meaning to add this to the forum but I didn't get time to ask. My problem is trying to get this colour:
















The 3 pigeons in this picture that have brown necks, white bodies, and some brown flights. In Punjabi we call this breed "Lal Siray". "Lal" referring to red, and "Siray" referring to end and/or ending. SO in other words, red ended, red ends, red endings, etc. 


What exactly would be the name to call this gene and what is the best way to get youngsters that are this colour. Also, keep in mind that I've gotten youngsters that are "Lal Siray" but their colour around the neck is not as dark/deep as the ones you can see in the picture. Instead, they are either lighter or just have specks of red around the neck/flights/body. 

All three of these pigeons are males, so what colour female should I mate with them so that I get pigeons that look similar to them? Thank you!


Gurbir


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

The color is called recessive red. The one i see here has a gene called white flights, if they have a little red in the flights its called undergrizzle, if fully red then its just normal. recessive red is well..recessive so the bird must have a "double dose" in order to show the gene. The best way to get more is to take the offspring from one and breed it back to the male. As for a deeper color, there really isn't too much you can do about that unless you wanted to get real complicated. The white birds that are black spotted would probably be the best.

Is this what you mean by red end?









you can see my little collection of recessive red here
http://s1139.photobucket.com/albums/n558/CorbinG/Red English Tipplers/

how much red do you want to see?

this much?









or something like this?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler are you sure Gurbir's birds are reccesive red not ash red, Is hard to tell without seeing the colour of the flights or tail feathers. I have homozygous ash red grizzles with lots of red on the neck like those ones, Will try get a good pic tomorrow to compare


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

The colour I'm trying to get is similar to the pigeons in your first and third picture. I will take better pictures of them all tomorrow and show you the options I have when it comes to the recessive red gene.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Still not convinced its recessive red, Nothing in your pictures on your other thread appear to be, Look ash red to me. Have you got any birds with red flights or tail feathers?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Nope I don't have any birds with red tails/flights, just the three males you see in the picture along with 3 more males that have the same reddish colour but have less of it. And then I have a female that is similar to the 3 other males that only have a little red. I'll post pictures of all of them tomorrow to give a better idea


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks, May be ash red which would make things a wee bit easier


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yes it was hard to tell, I was basing off how close it looked to mine. He also said he could not reproduce the color. With ash red you wouldn't have a problem reproducing them because it's the most dominat color, but with rec red it would naturally be more of a challenge


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

When he said he could not reproduce the colour I got the impression he meant the nice red necks on white birds not the red itself.

Are your really white ones **** or het grizzle, I notice that the grizzle on your birds has not covered all the colour in the flights but on Gurbirs birds it has.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

My are mottles(tiger grizzles) the flights being all white has nothing to do with grizzle I believe. Just the piebald gene called white flights


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> My are mottles(tiger grizzles) the flights being all white has nothing to do with grizzle I believe. Just the piebald gene called white flights


Yeah yours are mottles, His look to be classical grizzles. I have **** grizzles with completely white flights, However I have not ever put the pied white flight gene into the line

What i was trying to get at is that if his birds were recessive red they may show some red in their tails and flights.

Very hard to tell from the pics what they are, I just wanted to point out they may be ash red. 

would pay to be sure we know what they are before giving him a breeding program. If these red cocks carry blue and he bred one of these red birds to a blue, he may get a blue cock and a blue hen in the offspring and put them together expecting reccesive reds..... he may be waiting a while if what I am saying is correct.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

In my opinion, I think Gurbir's may be tiger grizzles. I've never had any homozygous ash-red grizzles with that much red on the head/neck area, and yet still have white bodies. Or perhaps a mix between the two, or piebald to help. But I do agree it looks a bit like ash-red. But some recessive reds can look like ash-red velvets until you see the flights/tail.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Need more pictures of the red ,Gurbir, and there offsprings


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> In my opinion, I think Gurbir's may be tiger grizzles. I've never had any homozygous ash-red grizzles with that much red on the head/neck area, and yet still have white bodies. Or perhaps a mix between the two, or piebald to help. But I do agree it looks a bit like ash-red. But some recessive reds can look like ash-red velvets until you see the flights/tail.


Mine came from a line of seons, **** Red grizzles, I have added a pic of one that is how I would expect **** grizzle to look pic 1, Pic 2 -3 is the other **** grizzle with a similar look to the birds at the top. I have also shown the offspring from the bird in pic 2 -3, It looks like classical grizzle to me but you may be able to help out. Sorry to hijack post but this is kind relevant I suppose


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Here are the babies from the red grizzle in pic 2 and 3 It appears the blue has Kite bronze ( or some other bronze ) Often found in lines where red has been bred as the kite bronze enhances the red colour. I want some het blue bar grizzles and the ash red Seons I have are **** red and **** grizzle. If I have another pair breeding some offspring carrying Bar to put to one of these offspring to get my Barred grizzles. Patience is a virtue.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Here are some closer pics of the males with the darkest reddish colour around the neck:


*PICTURE 1*












*PICTURE 2*











*PICTURE 3*












*PICTURE 4*


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

*PICTURE 5*










(Next 3 pictures are of one male pigeon)

*PICTURE 6*











*PICTURE 7*












*PICTURE 8 *


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Next 2 pictures are of another male pigeon:

*PICTURE 9*











*PICTURE 10*










The next 2 pictures are of an interesting pigeon. His colour is not red looking but instead is a darker shade of brown/green plumage. He looks like an almond sort of colour. Thoughts?

*PICTURE 11*











*PICTURE 12*


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

These next 2 males have the least amount of brown. One of them also has a black feather.


1st 2 pictures of one male:


*PICTURE 13*











*PICTURE 14*











2 pictures of another male with less brown and is mainly white:

*PICTURE 15*











*PICTURE 16* (pigeon on the right)


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Lastly, here are the pictures of the only hen I have with this colour. She doesn't have much of it like some of the males but she's the only one with it from the hens. Her tail by the way is pure white, its just colour that you see on it.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Most are ash red, I was wrong. But looks like one is rec red. The one with the red tail.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Is the pigeon in pictures 6,7,8 recessive red? And what do you think of the pigeon in pictures 11 and 12?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah Pic 7 and 8 look recessive, Maybe some tiger grizzle and classic by the look of the flock. Pic 5 tiger grizzle maybe but I am just guessing. The bird in pic 11 and 12 appears blue based to me, Maybe some sort of bronzing? Kite maybe from the red line.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

7 and 8 rec, 11 and 12 blue. The mark on 12 looks like a blue fleck. Well I think some may be dilute but I really don't know. Yes 5 appears tiger grizzle. I've never seen a ash red mottle, I didn't expect the mottled feathers to look red. Any grey on the head is an indication of ash red I believe


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

What pigeons would you breed together in order to produce youngsters with the same colour and amount of brown colour that the pigeon has in picture 1? 


Maybe breeding one of the males with the female I have?

Thanks for all of the help so far! I've had pigeons for 9 and a half years now and have never known what colour my pigeons are genetically. (Example: ash red, blue bar, grizzle, tiger grizzle, etc etc). I have always had a simple name for them (Example, the white one, the brown one, the white one with black flights, etc). So its all fairly new to me


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Gurbir said:


> What pigeons would you breed together in order to produce youngsters with the same colour and amount of brown colour that the pigeon has in picture 1?
> 
> 
> Maybe breeding one of the males with the female I have?
> ...


All new to me also, Started studying around a year ago, Don't take everything I say as gospel ( hopefully if im wrong someone here will pick up on it and correct me ) but I would put the hen with the similar cock as you say. That way you should not get many/any blues and the parents should pass on whatever genepool is creating the phenotype ( look ) you want. All I can suggest anyway. For more reds try and use a red cockbird that does not have black flecking but even if you do use a cock with flecking only around 25% of the offspring would be blue. Only thing here is you will have blues popping up down the track so if you are not after blues best to try get rid of it from word dot.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

You don't have any solid color birds? Ideally you would want that, it seems all your birds are homozygous grizzles or some may be homozygous tiger grizzle. But if you breed **** grizzle to **** grizzle the birds get whiter and whiter till you get an all white birds with maybe only a fleck or two with the pearl eyes. You know what I'm talking about right, the white Pak high flyers with the white eyes. Your sooner or later come to that. You would want a non grizzle bird to give you het grizzles ( one dose) you will get more color that way. May not be what your looking for.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I only have one solid black hen, thats the only solid coloured pigeon I have. Most of them are grizzles, or the red/white pattern you saw in these pictures, or the typical black/white pattern. I have some blue bars also. 

I'll probably just end up pairing the hen with one or two of the males to see what I get. More of a trial and error method. I don't breed for colour usually so the problem has never risen. I plan on getting more involved with colour since the hawks been hitting pretty hard the past couple years here up north so its better to have a colour experiment going while on lockdown


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well do that, but also take one onto a blue bar because I believe your get something you don't have.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Do the pink flights help against predators?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Most people do it to recognize birds while they are flying, Also helps if you have birds that look the same. A little pink isn't going to scare a hawk away.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Hello, these birds are very nice, do they fly well? up high for a long time? (when the hawlks arn't around)

Breed the ones with a dark neck to similar birds to produce more like the one you like.
Only keep the babies you like.

I also think you should use recessive reds so they dont have any grey or black flecks like the ash reds. if its got red tail feathers its a recessive red.

Learn about all the colours and patterns you have, its quite interesting.
you have ash reds, blues, recessive reds, kite bronze, tiger grizzle/mottle, classic grizzle, probably not dilute but sometimes you never know what mite pop up generations later. 

dominant genes show in one dose but recessive genes only show if the bird has two genes/doses (one from each parent) so your recessive red bird came from a pair both carrying recessive red either in one dose or two, I guess you gotta read this stuff over and over to remember


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> You don't have any solid color birds? Ideally you would want that, it seems all your birds are homozygous grizzles or some may be homozygous tiger grizzle. But if you breed **** grizzle to **** grizzle the birds get whiter and whiter till you get an all white birds with maybe only a fleck or two with the pearl eyes. You know what I'm talking about right, the white Pak high flyers with the white eyes. Your sooner or later come to that. You would want a non grizzle bird to give you het grizzles ( one dose) you will get more color that way. May not be what your looking for.


This is all true, I guess the only thing is het grizzles might cause red wings like my young bird in the second photos i put on, I think the fact that you have **** grizzles with red necks and white wings means you can get more through putting your red hen to the nicest red cock and selecting the darker ones. 

Also you could take a daughter from the reccesive red and pair it back to him to get reccesive reds, You will probably find they have more colour.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

The colour I use on the pigeons is a special colour from India that I had a relative bring. I mainly use it to tell the difference when they're flying. All the males get pink since "Only real mean wear pink!" haha!

I'm not a very big fan of inbreeding but for the sake of an experiment I probably will end up pairing the recessive red male with a daughter of his in the future.



Also, to answer your question thepigeonkey, my pigeons generally fly very well unless for the obvious hawk attacks. The tipplers have fly anywhere from around 5 to 10 hours and the Pakistani's exceeded 13 hours just once but have blood in them that has flown 14+ hours.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I just got my copies of Axel sells two books on pigeongenetics and colors today, and he seems to think that we do not know what causes these red birds which are so grizzly looking but still have so much color in the head and neck. One thing is for sure though. He says they are rec. red (which we can clearly see by the tail feather with the dark tip where the ash bar would have been.)


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

13 and 14 are ash red. Isn't all the ones with grey in the head ash red? Yeah the one With the red tail is rec red but most look ash. I'm confused


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Sorry, I must've missed a few, they all looked the same to me.

If the two types differ enough visually for you to distinguish them, they probably are different types, with possibly totally different genetics. If you breed red when mating to blues, you know ash-red is involved. I cannot really be of more help.

Maybe if you make a thread for one bird at a time?

If I were you I'd breed to blue bars, and get the whole thing straightened out.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

In other words ... always keep a couple of blue bars on stand-by in your loft. They come in handy for test matings, and if not, then they are great surrogate parents for raising a clutch from a prize pair.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

These are gurbirs birds not mine? Some of the tails are ash red tails and most of the heads have gray in them. I know all mine are rec red. Anyways breeding these to blues and getting ash red wouldn't meant they were not rec red, since they could be both.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Print Tippler said:


> These are gurbirs birds not mine?


I have been gone for a day or two and have obviously fumbled when trying to catch up on all the threads. Sincere apologies!



Print Tippler said:


> Some of the tails are ash red tails and most of the heads have gray in them. I know all mine are rec red. Anyways breeding these to blues and getting ash red wouldn't meant they were not rec red, since they could be both.


True, but Occams razor says that the simplest answer is usually the right one (when no more information is available to prove either way [I always add this last bit for myself]). In this case the simplest answer is either ash-red or recessive red, but probably not both.

If you breed blues and reds from your reds, then breeding the blues together would allow you to see whether yours are rec. red or not. This would be the only way to prove beyond any doubt know rec. red is in there.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I just got my copies of Axel sells two books on pigeongenetics and colors today, and he seems to think that we do not know what causes these red birds which are so grizzly looking but still have so much color in the head and neck. One thing is for sure though. He says they are rec. red (which we can clearly see by the tail feather with the dark tip where the ash bar would have been.)


My ash red bird with the red neck ( photo on other page ) is surely not recessive so it must be possible to get red necks like this from ash red birds


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I have been gone for a day or two and have obviously fumbled when trying to catch up on all the threads. Sincere apologies!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking at the pics there appears to be a mix of both, Could this not be the simplest answer, Sorry but do you really think we should be ruling something out as it may not seem the simplest answer, I would have thought in the complicated world we live in that the simplest answer is less likely to be correct. 

Also breeding recessive reds of blues would proove they carry however it would not proove beyonf doubt that all the birds in question are recessive.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Looking at the pics there appears to be a mix of both, Could this not be the simplest answer, Sorry but do you really think we should be ruling something out as it may not seem the simplest answer, I would have thought in the complicated world we live in that the simplest answer is less likely to be correct.
> 
> Also breeding recessive reds of blues would proove they carry however it would not proove beyonf doubt that all the birds in question are recessive.


The only way to prove beyond doubt what the birds in question are, would be breeding tests. If you can breed grizzle reds like these from two blues, then we know that ash-red does not have to be involved.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> The only way to prove beyond doubt what the birds in question are, would be breeding tests. If you can breed grizzle reds like these from two blues, then we know that ash-red does not have to be involved.


Correct, It would still not proove what the birds in the pics are though.


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