# More PMV



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

First of all I am new to the forum and saw that there was a PMV thread but I did not want to hijack it with my question so I started another.

The bird in question is one that I have known for 3 years, by known I mean one of the ones because of some unique markings I recognize when I feel some of the local birds.

I first noticed he was in trouble last Wednesday when he came down to feed he was having a very difficult time walking and falling over and turning like he was drunk. On Friday I managed to catch him and sought help for him.

He can still eat a little but for the last few days he needed to be given fluids as he can not manage on his own. I spoke with a vet he seemed to be indicating that it may be unfair to him to have him suffer. Also, it was said that the small chance that he does recover that he probably will not be able to be released back to the wild as a result of permanent neurological damage which probably will occur form this virus.

Is this being unfair to the bird? Also, I live with 6 birds, 3 parrots, a cockatiel and 2 buggies, so I could not risk bringing him home as much as I would like to and rehabilitate him.

Any suggestions for treatment or support that will improve his chances? He really is such a beautiful bird, it hurts to think of him not around any more.

Thanks


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

We have members who have successfully rehabbed PMV pigeons and hopefully one of them will be along soon to give you more advice. I'm no expert, but I believe it's possible for the pigeon to survive and have some quality of life, though it will be unrealeasable. 

Once the pigeon is treated for common diseases such as Trichomoniasis (canker), coccidiosis and other parasites, it should present no health threat to your other birds.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jazaroo,

If you don't mind posting where you are located, perhaps we have a member in the area who could lend a hand with the PMV pigeon.

As BirdMom posted, once the bird has been treated for the common problems/diseases, it should pose no danger to your other birds.

I have several recovered PMV pigeons that do just fine once the extreme symptoms went away. Sadly, it's not advisable to release a recovered PMV bird as it may have a relapse somewhere down the road.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think the psittaciformes (your birds) are at risk from Pigeon PMV. There isn't really a treatment for PMV at this time but that applies to the replication of the virus. There are some supportive protocols that have proven to be helpful like Metronidazole and Baytril in combination. As I said, this won't battle the virus but it can help prevent secondary infection from occurring at the battle sites. Lady Tarheel (one of our best rehabbing members) is the one to get the dosages from for that protocol.

Also, you can give the bird an anti-inflammatory like aspirin at 5.5 milligrams per kilogram, 4 times per day and it's said to help lessen the severity. There is another medication called MetaCam that is often used for birds that your vet may be more familiar with and easier to dose.

Tube feeding may become necessary through the worst of it but that's pretty easy if it comes to that.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Welcome to Pigeons.com.  

I'm sorry to hear about your feral friend. 

I have a PMV survivor & 'Pij' is doing wonderfully. He resides in our aviary along side 7 other rescued non-releasable pigeons.

Here is the link to Cynthia's post regarding PMV. She has dealt with several PMV pijjies. I hope this will help you to better understand the illness.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to post them.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12248

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hello and thanks for your replies so far.

From my reading the virus can be shed for up to a year after infection, plus the vet at the WLC mentioned this, and can infect birds of the parrot species according to these links:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/dvms/newcastle.html

It just would not be possible for me to risk the well being of our pets, I will do to anything short of this, perhaps as there is another rehabber in my area?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's actually a little more complicated than a casual reading of those websites would give you. There are quite a few strains of PMV as well as Newcastle Disease. They are all in the family of "paramyxoviridae" and, while similar, aren't quite kissing cousins.

The PMV that is typical of pigeons is:

PMV-1/pigeon/Munich/14/83 

...and to a lesser extent according to the work of Helga Gerlach:

PMV-7/dove/Tennessee/4/75

Your birds would be susceptible to:

PMV-2/chicken/California/Yucaipa/56;
PMV-3/parakeet/Netherlands/75
PMV-5/budgerigar/Japan/Kunitachi/75

...as well as true Newcastle Disease:

PMV-1 (Newcastle Disease)

I know that's a tough article to decipher because within the PMV-1 section, it also has a bunch of strain numbers and they're confusingly similar to the other chart.

Anyhow, that's how that works. It's also possible to get your birds vaccinated against both PMV and ND, by the way. In any case, ask the Toronto Wildlife Centre if they are using the aforementioned protocols.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As I have mentioned before, taking a pigeon with PMV to a vet or rehabber will usually end in euthanasia. Unfortunately they do not have the facilities to keep pigeons in isolation and will usually euthanase them and justify their decision.

For the record, the pigeon is most likely to have PMV1 Pigeon...they continue to shed that for 6 weeks...specific tests in the UK ave established that.

As for other birds, I have 54 pigeons and have no hesitation about helping the ones with PMV that I find, I keep them isolated for 12 weeks (just to be on the safe side) and then put them in the aviary with my own birds. I haven't had a single case of PMV being caught on my premises.

Very occasionally there is permanent neurological damage and this can lead to what appears to be a "relapse". This happened to one of the 10 pigeons that I kept. The others survived with no further symptoms after recovery.


Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi jazaroo, 


The use of Aspirin, I had read was useful to diminish the twisting symptoms which make it hard for the Bird to eat, or to ambulate or be able to function generally.

So, bear this in mind in case the Wild Life Centre is not familiar with useing it in this way.

Other anti-inflamitories similarly, could be useful in this regard.

I think the simple impirical for the Asprin dosage works out to a pin-head size flake, three occasions over every 24 hours...but Pidgey I hope will review this to affirm or correct.

Too, for now, keeping the Bird "warm" as in your own wrist temperature of warm, is helpful to them very much. For which an electric Heating Pad, and a draped cage are valuable means.

These two things may work to diminish the appearent symptoms, and add to the energy conservation of his metabolism, so the Bird may eat and drink and so on on his own, which will make your job, and his recovery, every so much easier.

And, of course, be on the lookout for any signs of secondary opportunistic illnesses such as Canker ( or other forms of Trichomoniasis) Coccidiosis and so on...if you can get fecal samples analysed periodically, this will make it easier to monitor that concern.

Be on the look out for any chalky 'yellow' showing in their poops...

Direct Sunlight when weather permits, is benificial, as are fresh greens like Kales or Chards or even dried Sea Weeds of various kinds, or their powdered forms...as are other suppliments for their nutrition, such as Brewer's Yeast powder adhered to their Seeds with a light glistening of Olive Oil...and some good Bird Vitamines-Minerals like 'Nekton-T' for example.

These things would be good for you to do if you decide to take care of this Bird, and if you can manage a simple quarenteen for them, say for the next twelve weeks or so.

The danger of contaminations or contaigen are practically mostly from poops on the floors being walked on and pulverised into airborne dusts, or, cage dusts generally, or, remotely, from carelessness handleing poops or wet nares, and then handleing other Birds without washing one's hand well inbetween.

The PPMV does not present any concern for making people ill.

Otherwise, really, practically, the quarenteen is not difficult to do, and is fairly straight forward and all about common sense careful.


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

I have emailed the protocol for care, Pidgey suggested this is information that may be helpful.

Is anyone aware of someone in my general area, I would be willing to travel, that could help with the rehabilitation of the bird? I spoke with my wife and she is adamant that in the fact that she just cannot bring risk to our birds, even if the risk posed is may be small as suggested here.

Also, I have been trying (reading) to get an idea of the progression/cycle of PMV. When I first noticed him a week ago he could come down and feed, although he was uncoordinated, but managed some good food intake. Since Friday he has progressed to not being able to drink on his own and has great difficulty in feeding himself I am told.

Will it get worse than this? Should they be syringe crop feeding him? How long will it be before he starts to reach a point where he can feed and drink on his own again. How long before he starts to recover from the neurological symptoms?

Thanks everyone for the support and help.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

It has already been established that antibiotics can actually intensify the lesions and aggravate the course of the disease, so I am very concerned about the recommendation of a combination of Metronidazole and Baytril as a "protocol for care".


I am of the school of thought that antibiotics should not be used as a prophylactic. The only time I use them in the absence of infection is in the case of cat caught birds because I know that there is a 90% chance that the bird will develop pasteurella septicemia and die before showing the symptoms that would otherwise trigger treatment.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

So the recommendation would be no prophylactic use of antibiotics or anti-fungals unless secondary infections present themselves?

Foods, fluids (electrolytes + fortified with calcium), and and perhaps aspirin or a steroidal anti-inflammatory?

Thanks


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think that most people believe in routinely treating an incoming pigeon with a single dose of spartrix and a single dose of appertex and I see no harm in this. And I am not saying that the combination mentioned should never be used, either.

What concerns me is that the combined use of Baytril and Metronidazole has suddenly progressed on this forum to being a protocol for all PMV cases, when all Maggie said about it was : 

_We have had many birds with CNS symptoms. We lost a few but a local vet did some research about 5 years ago and came up with giving the birds a combination of Baytril and Metronidazole. Our own vet saw nothing wrong with this and said it would help to try it. We gave it to several pigeons we got in and honestly they got ok. Maybe they would have anyway, but who knows?._



Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Pigeon PMV and other birds*

This link clarifies it. It says chickens, blackbirds and house sparrows can be affected by pigeon PMV.


http://ocw.tufts.edu/courses/5/content/215760


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The only "protocol" used in giving PMV birds a 1/4 Baytril tablet with the regular Metronidazole dose came from a vet who was desperately trying to save two pigeons that had extreme cases of PMV. He had tried various drugs but only the Metronidazole/Baytril combination seemed to help, at least temporarily, because in the end, both birds died.

I discussed this with my regular vet who said it should not hurt any future PMV birds to try this. We have used this drug combination on others and it did seem to help them. Whether or not the virus simply ran its usual course is something I can't tell you. 

If there is evidence that this drug combination will hurt PMV pigeons in any way, shape or form, I would be very appreciative of any information in that regard because I want to do everything I can to help them.

I want to add one further, probably inflammatory, statement about this issue. I have often said that my rehabbing is done "by the seat of my pants" because not enough research is being done to help provide accurate "protocols" to use in treating birds. I try to learn as much as I can and weigh the information I get. I have learned a lot in the 12+ years I have rehabbed but need to learn a lot more. 

I have been very grateful to have this forum to go to for more information. However, you can take any topic and have five different responses. How do you determine which advice to take? What makes any one member more accurate than the other? You simply have to weigh the responses and choose the one that "seems" to be the best.

My point is that I try to do everything that I can to help birds because I love them so much. I have posted the information I have about the Metronidazole/Baytril combination to treat PMV birds many times on this forum but no one has, until today, come forward to say this could harm them.

If any member posts information about treating a bird using a certain method that another member knows may actually harm a bird, then speak up from the git-go. Don't allow the mistake to continue. It can harm the bird and also make the member look like an idiot.

Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I used to see no harm in treating with antibiotics, I must admitt, I did it all the time without even knowing what I was treating. My vets do still the same "the bird is off, give antibiotic see how he does".
It's been over a year now, I stopped doing this, I don't treat but specific infections and only if I think it is really waranted I do give Baytril, like for example with Jane.
Antibiotics are good if you treat a specific infection and you know the specific bacteria is sensitive to it, but otherwise, as proficlactics, I don't see the point. Antibiotics do kill the good bacteria also, lower the immune system and then you have have the risk of getting superbugs and fungal infections, which are so hard to treat. 
Even in PMV birds who naturaly have a lower immune system, treating with antibiotics for prevention doesn't have much point as he can get infected with bugs that don't respond to the specific antibiotic and not to mention the fungal infections they can get. I prefer to give those birds an antiinflammatory, calcium, vit B, vinegar etc.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Maggie,

The information about the use of antibiotics in PMV is actually in the PMV sticky and you cannot look silly for posting that the advice that you received from a vet that had done research into the subject was different!

As you say, we all have different opinions and experiences and you have the right to post what has worked for you, just as others have the right to post about any research they have uncovered. There are always changes and developments being thrown up by research and we must be receptive to them. People must make up their own minds based on the information and evidence in front of them at any given time. 

If a pigeon with PMV developed an infection I would treat with antibiotics, because the actual infection would be potentially more harmful than the possible effect of antibiotics on the PMV lesions or the progress of the disease. So I would never say that you must _never _use antibiotics on pigeons with PMV just as I would never say that you must _always_ use antibiotics. 

I didn't speak up before because I have *no criticism *about the way that you put your suggestion that the Baytril Metronidazole combo had been recommended by a vet and used by you with no ill effect and possibly a beneficial effect.... As I said, what concerned me was the subsequent progression to it being a "protocol for care" and recommended as such to rehabbers. 

Maybe we are interpreting the word "protocol" differently ..here in the UK it means an agreed pattern of treatment that is used for all intakes. 

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cynthia,

For my part, I had taken the various references from Maggie as a whole, leading to an overall impression. This is the one that, to me, had specifically tied that protocol to dealing with PMV:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=82117&postcount=32

In the grand scheme of things, that's how I connected the dots. I suppose that I should bear the bulk of the blame for endorsing this protocol as Maggie never pushed it on others. The clinical references that I have reviewed in formulating this post (The Merck; Helga Gerlach) have not mentioned a contraindication for antibiotics with respect to PMV. They're not saying to use them to treat it, either, merely to control secondary bacterials.

I expect that Maggie's source (a vet) may have come up with the protocol based on the pigeons that they saw in the cited reference above due to secondary signs, goodness knows maybe even necroptic indications.

Now that I've put some time in studying epilepsy and how it manifests in all animals for various causes including trauma, I wonder if there aren't some cases of suspected PMV that are actually something else. We've usually nailed a diagnosis on a bird with such signs without any lab tests to prove that's the underlying cause when it's becoming increasingly obvious (to me, that is) that there are, in fact, other possibilities. 

I base that statement on the fact that I have a squeaker from my loft that was removed at approximately two weeks of age that is demonstrating the bulk of the symptoms listed in your thread on PMV. Since I've never seen anything like that in either my birds or the local ferals, I find it to be rather eye-opening in that it has been our canned response to convey a diagnosis of PMV in all such cases.

It's usually impossible to know what it is that you don't know about a specific case. If the numbers worked out such that a percentage of individuals with PMV were negatively affected by prophylactic treatment with antibiotics and another percentage were positively affected in that they didn't come down with secondary infections, then it's a numbers game. And I haven't yet seen anything published (not that it doesn't exist) that has quantified treatment protocols vs. success/failure.

Wild pigeons are definitely not lab pigeons. Most people don't know that for true laboratory analysis of drug and treatment protocols, the animals used are usually of a very pure strain selected for absolute repeatability--you give any individual of the group a known quantity of an isolated pathogen and they all come down with the disease the same. Further, they're not generally carrying the bacterial baggage that the "in situ" individuals are.

Anyhow, I would be very interested in reviewing clinical references regarding such contraindications. It wouldn't surprise me if there was something in all that stuff that we emailed each other with way back when and I just missed it. But, when a given rehabber has better personal success with "their own way", it's sometimes not the best idea to stop it. 

Unie is blind today because antibiotic treatment was not initiated at a much earlier stage. I have had other birds that I could kick myself for witholding treatment. Conversely, I have none that have given me reason to elevate the practice of witholding. That's more a statement about my particular practice of taking some consideration than an endorsement for others to medicate, medicate, medicate!

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> We've usually nailed a diagnosis on a bird with such signs without any lab tests to prove that's the underlying cause when it's becoming increasingly obvious (to me, that is) that there are, in fact, other possibilities


. 

Possibilities, yes, but I have always made it clear that I am talking of the balance of _probabilities._ Research is fine but as you know if you read any medical book you will probably conclude that you are suffering from a number of rare diseases. However, the balance of probabilities is that whatever symptoms you have are due to one of the more common illnesses. 



> when a given rehabber has better personal success with "their own way", it's sometimes not the best idea to stop it.


Which no one has done....but neither should we leap to the conclusion that it is a "cure" for PMV which should be adopted in all cases.

All but one of the pigeons that I "diagnosed" with PMV on the basis of the symptoms alone made a complete recovery within the time frame given for PMV recovery with supportive care only. The one that didn't make a complete recovery continued to show a trembling of the eye which the vet attributed to a permanent lesion and that is the pigeon that subsequently had what we consider to be a relapse. 

I have to ask the question, then: how likely is it that pigeons suffering from epilepsy would make a spontaneous recovery without treatment within a matter of weeks? 



> The clinical references that I have reviewed in formulating this post (The Merck; Helga Gerlach) have not mentioned a contraindication for antibiotics with respect to PMV. They're not saying to use them to treat it, either, merely to control secondary bacterials


The warnings came from H. Vindevogel (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine and University Professor.) 

By the way, for anyone who is interested, he does also warn that only pigeons in a perfect state of health can be vaccinated without danger (ie unaffected by trichomoniasis, parasites, paratyphosis and coryza).

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

To Jazaroo - my apologies to you for my part in your inquiry going awry.

Maggie


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Maggie,

No apologies needed at all. The information is in fact very helpful for my understanding of PMV, but I will bump up my previous post to see if I can get some clarification on some issues.

_I have emailed the protocol for care, Pidgey suggested this is information that may be helpful.

Is anyone aware of someone in my general area, I would be willing to travel, that could help with the rehabilitation of the bird? I spoke with my wife and she is adamant that in the fact that she just cannot bring risk to our birds, even if the risk posed is may be small as suggested here.

Also, I have been trying (reading) to get an idea of the progression/cycle of PMV. When I first noticed him a week ago he could come down and feed, although he was uncoordinated, but managed some good food intake. Since Friday he has progressed to not being able to drink on his own and has great difficulty in feeding himself I am told.

Will it get worse than this? Should they be syringe crop feeding him? How long will it be before he starts to reach a point where he can feed and drink on his own again. How long before he starts to recover from the neurological symptoms?

Thanks everyone for the support and help._


When I speak with the person looking after the bird I would like to have as much information as I can to be able to say, the symptoms and condition of the bird at this time are not all that unusual. That he will need food and fluid support for X amount of time and he will start to recover. I would like to help the bird as much as possible and I need knowledge I do not possess at time.

Thanks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does seem almost adversarial, doesn't it?

Well, perhaps it's just plain academic. I just got off the phone with one of my vets. I'm going to write this down before I get foggy on it. I had actually called to ask if I could get a PMV test done. I've called two vets about that, the first being the current president of the Association of Avian Veterinarians (he tells me that's no distinction--it's more of a year's burden that you get stuck with).

The first told me they didn't have one and that I could try the other one. The second one explained further: they don't have one that applies to a live bird. Now, does that mean that they one doesn't exist or that one isn't accessible? He did say that they can take samples from the brain and kidneys in necropsy and get that tested but, obviously, that's not something you're going to do for a live bird.

Now comes the fun part. He said that what they're seeing these days is that the predominant symptom is the watery droppings illustrating kidney involvement and that the CNS signs are not prevalent. That is in agreement with what my other vet (the prez) once told me a few years ago. When I directly asked about the percentage of PMV pigeons that demonstrate CNS signs, he said, "about 5%." He added that several years ago, it was a much higher percentage. He further added that pigeons that demonstrate CNS signs are more likely suffering more from Salmonella or E. coli.

I was aghast--just shoot the horse out from under me, here! I had enough presence of mind to ask, "what's changed?" to which I got a, "who knows!?!" As I'm reeling from this onslaught, I have come to wonder if it's primarily the domestic pigeon community that this applies to or whether it includes the feral community as well. He did indicate that there are very few people who intend on fighting PMV in an individual after onset and this (conjecture here) drastically limits the economics of its study.

Now, before I get shot for treason, I'd like to point out that this also may be a geographical phenomenon. I expect I could ask questions of these guys to fill a day or more. I also should point out that these two folks are not typical vets. The first one I mentioned is an avian vet of some notoriety and personally knows most of the vets and scientists that have written or otherwise contributed to the avian veterinary books that I have acquired. Whenever Helga Gerlach comes to the USA, she always goes out to dinner with the first vet. Who's Helga Gerlach? She's the one that assembled the material on that page that Jazaroo referenced:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/PMV-RH&H-WWW.htm

...and so much more that I expect the difference between my intellect and hers would be like comparing a chimpanzee to Einstein.

The second one is considered one of the best racing pigeon vets in the country and bigtime racers send him sick birds to treat from as far away as the coasts (I'm in the middle of the country).

So, the upshot is that there's obviously more to the PMV story than I have found clinical references for and I have a real hard time dismissing the explanations that these two people have given me. If it had been from several other vets that I know, I WOULD dismiss it, but not them.

Anyhow, perhaps a new quest for more recent information as well as some even harder questions than we have asked before are in order, now.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I should answer Cynthia's direct questions, too. I think that in light of what I got from the vets today, there's nothing certain. I'm not certain the term "epilepsy" is something quite apart from the CNS signs demonstrated by PMV, Salmonella, E. coli and God knows what else. I'm getting the picture that "epilepsy" as a term is about like "pneumonia" in that it doesn't identify the etiology that causes the condition.

As such, it might technically be correct to classify the CNS signs of the aforementioned etiologies as "epilepsy" although it's not generally the practice to associate them. However, there seem to be many epilepsies that spontaneously occur and then disappear with no further need of treatment: "I outgrew it." One of our members recently told that in a different thread.

I don't think a diagnosis may be conclusive due to a timetable. I've just seen too many obviously sick birds suffering from a plethora of illnesses respond to warmth, clean water, clean food and the realization of safety within the timetable presented. I read the other day in THE PIGEON by Wendell Levi that one of the old ways of taking care of a Paratyphoid wing boil was to pluck the flights from the offending side out so that the bird wouldn't use the wing, wouldn't aggravate the infection. The outside was painted with iodine and there may have been something else but it wasn't antibiotics.

Anyhow, the bird would get over it all on its own. At least, there was the reduction of clinical symptoms. If it can happen there, it can happen in the rest of the body so I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer here.

As to vaccinating unhealthy birds, I wonder if it has anything to do with the live vs. the inactivated vaccines as mentioned here:

"LaSota vaccine strains administered via eye or nasal drop are not as efficacious in protecting from infections as expected. The LaSota strains replicate poorly in pigeon tissue so that high vaccine doses are necessary for interference and antibody production (protection only for 8 to 12 weeks).170 *Vaccination with live vaccines may exacerbate latent chlamydia or pigeon herpesvirus infections.222 Parenteral administration of live Hitchner B1 vaccine has similar side effects but may provide six months of immunity. *"

"Inactivated vaccines are preferable for pigeons. In an active outbreak, vaccination with an inactivated vaccine will decrease the length of the disease and mitigate the clinical signs.170 Once CNS signs develop, vaccination is of no value; however, spontaneous recoveries do occur."

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pidgey,

I cannot argue with your evidence that racing pigeons with CNS symptoms are more likely to be suffering from salmonella or e-coli than PMV, but don't let them shoot that horse from under you just yet!  This should be the case if responsible fanciers vaccinate their birds against PMV. According to Vindevogel the appearance of the diarrhea without nervous symptoms may be observed most often "when pigeons have been vaccinated but a long time ago so their degree of resistance has been attenuated over the months and has become too weak to stop the virus multiplying in the intestine but is still sufficient to prevent its dissemination to the brain".

Of course, different strains are active in different geographical regions and different strains of the virus have a different effect on the victim. It could well be that the current strain is viscerotropic but not neurotropic.

Sadly, most feral pigeons that develop PMV have not been vaccinated and die quietly without coming to anyone's attention so they are not taken into account in any statistics. I suspect that those that are handed in to vets are destroyed routinely without investigation into the cause of their symptoms. Those that are rescued are noticed only because they have become incapacitated by CNS symptoms, so the rescuer would probably see a much higher percentage of PMV victims with CNS symptoms than a fancier or a vet but would probably seldom if ever see a PMV victim with GI symptoms only.

The information about vaccinating only birds in perfect health applied to the inactivated vaccine.

When I first joined this forum I was one of the few that dared nurse pigeons with the symptoms of PMV back to health. Then the predominant view was that they should not be touched with a bargepole except to be destroyed and I was not at all popular for opposing it. Because of this I tend to contribute what I know when I spot threads on the subject. I am sorry if this has caused offence.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Offense? Poppycock! You're just... "enthusiastic" when the right subject comes up!

Realistically, I was kinda' disheartened to find that they didn't have a quickie litmus test for Pigeon PMV. But, in my neck of the woods it doesn't seem to be a huge problem anyway, at least the CNS signs aren't. 
I can easily imagine that the geographics and the practicalities could skew the numbers, that's why I brought it up rather than pound the gavel over what the vets had said. Especially seeing as how I hadn't thought to bring the subjects up to them (I was too bewildered).

Is there an internet source or link to Vindevogel's works that can be accessed?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

I need some information.

Can someone tell me or point me in the right direction on time frame that birds shed the PMV for. It would be great if there was a case study or references, but I would be happy with anecdotal information as well. What are the chances of a bird that has been rehabilitated from PMV infecting birds (other wild feral birds that have not been inoculated), say 6 months out. Is there a time frame where they absolutely will not shed to infect other birds?

Thanks for any information at all.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ron,

My reference sources for this are books, not the internet, but I am certain that you will be able to find acceptable credentials for the authors on line , together with details of their work.

H Vindevogel, doctor of veterinary medicine and University Professor, author of "Paramyxovirus Explained" and "Understanding Paramyxovirus" states in the second book referred to _"Pigeons are able to eliminate the virus in the excretions of the eye, nose and mouth from the 2nd and 3rd day after infection and in the droppings from the 4th day. Thus, pigeons are able to excrete the virus before the first symptoms appear. In the infected pigeon the virus persists for not more than 4 weeks in the repiratory organs, 3 weeks in the intestines and 5 weeks in the brain. *
After they have been ill for 6 weeks, the pigeons are no longer carriers of the virus and thus can no longer carry the infection"*._

Les Stocker, MBE, director of St Tiggywinkles Wildlife Hospital, states in his book "Practical Wildlife Care - for Veterinary Nurses, Animal Care Students and Rehabilitators":

"_When a pigeon first comes into contact with PMV-1 the virus multiplies around the eyes, nose and mouth. From the second or third day the pigeon starts to excrete virus into the environment. After 5-6 days respiratory and ocular symptoms should appear but in the current form of the disease these symptoms are practically non-existent...it is from the fourth day that the virus multiplies in the gastrointestinal tract and from then can be secreted in the droppings...only after the gastrointestinal tract has become involved are the neurological and central nervous system signs seen...*the pigeon will then shed the virus until the disease runs its course, in about 6 weeks*."_

Hope this helps.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As there have been vets who have stated that pigeons suspected of suffering from PMV were actually suffering from Newcastle Disease Virus I thought this reference to the persistence of Newcastle Disease Virus in pigeons from this link might also be helpful :

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:9tDTdEsU38sJathport.vbi.vt.edu/pathinfo/xmlfiles/Newcastle_Virus_Info.xml+%22pigeon+paramyxovirus%22+%2B+persistence+%2B+%226+weeks%22&hl=en
_It has been shown that in experimental infection of pigeons with velogenic NDV, virus persists for not more than 3 weeks in the intestine and 5 weeks in the brain. After they have been ill for 6 weeks, pigeons may be considered as no longer carriers of virus and thus are unlikely to transmit the infection_

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

And here is another link to a site which provides similar information, this specifies that pigeons do not remain infectious during convalecence:

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:0zINfWARtRgJ:www.animalhealthaustralia.com.au/shadomx/apps/fms/fmsdownload.cfm%3Ffile_uuid%3D2B277B94-D677-87C4-E607-D2DF8E1A3440%26siteName%3Daahc+pigeon+paramyxovirus+persists+for+6+weeks&hl=en

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia,

You are a real champ! This information is just what I needed.

Thanks ever so much.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You're welcome, Ron, but remember that even after the pigeon stops shedding the virus, the virus remains in any fecal dust for a few months (I found reference to this some time ago, can't remember when, but it makes sense as fecal dust is a known source of infection) and can still infect healthy pigeons. This is why it is so important to dispose of contaminated litter etc wisely.

I always play it safe and keep the pigeons in isolation longer than 6 weeks. It is not a lonely experience for them as during a PMV outbreak I find a number of birds in the same flock with CNS symptoms, so I keep the group together. One couple paired up and layed eggs during their convalecence. 

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I did a quick search and could not immediately find a reference to the survival of pigeon paramyxovirus outside the host, but I found this about Newcastle Disease Virus:


Newcastle disease is caused by a paramyxovirus that is stable outside the host. Although warm temperatures and sunlight speed inactivation of 
Newcastle disease virus (NDV), the virus is quite resistant to changes in pH and heat. As temperatures get lower from 37EC, the virus survives longer in the environment. Years are required to inactivate the virus at 8EC and freezing does notinactivate the virus (Beard 1984). As temperatures rise above 37EC, the virus survives for longer periods of time. It has remained stable at 50EC for 134 days (Ritchie 1995). NDV can remain active in moist soil for 22 days, on feathers at 20EC for 123 days and in lake water for 19 days(Ritchie 1995). The virus is excreted in high concentrations in the feces, which provides a stablemedium for virus survival outside the host. It has been isolated from buried carcasses after 121days (Ritchie 1995).

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:GuETTbP-IAgJ:microvet.arizona.edu/Courses/MIC438/Travrisk.pdf+paramyxovirus+fecal+dust+survives&hl=en


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I doubt that there's any difference between pigeon PMV and ND when it comes to remaining active outside the host. But that's just an opinion, of course.

Pidgey


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