# pigeon with string injury on foot...



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*Pigeon With String Injury On Foot< Need Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

i just want to double check before i do anything to this guy/girl
his foot looks like some string tied REAL tight cutting into his toes, and two toes seem fine, just the LITTLE bit of string cut into them, but im sure that needs to come off, and one toe is HUGE AND SWOLLEN< not pink, like white almost, i thought it was gum when i saw him and was just gonna grab him and pull it off, but it's his toe and he's limping real bad, the said toe drags and he seems in real pain when that happens, 
otherwise, he's real feisty and i havent taken him out of cat carrier because when i switched water he made a bee-line for the dor and was slamming himself against it to get out, he wants to go home.....
now, another question, do i release where i found him??? 
also, he doesnt seem to be eating or drinking water, but HE WAS eating bread when i saw him, is that just cause he's scared????

thanks everyone, i was on here yesterday frantic that the site wasnt up!!!

i just edited this because i added a link below to pics, so go down to my reply and go to that link....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi xm, 


It is helpful sometimes to gently wrap them in a soft thin cloth, so his body and head are covered, but so his legs are free and easy to get to...and this can have them struggle less.

It is of course important to carefully and very gently cut and remove all string-thread-hair-filliments from his feet or foot, and to do this, some fine tweezers and a pair of cuticle scizzors will be found very useful.

You have to cut the loose areas of thread/string/filliments and unwind each one which is embedded, unwind it in the right direction...if it does not want to unwind, move on to another filliment. Sometimes the fillimenta are tight and one has to gently slide the tip of the Cuticle Scizzors under a loop and gently lift a little, slide a little more, then snip, then grasp the end of the filliment with the fine Tweezers and determine which way it needs to unwind...and unwind it as far as it will go, then on from there...

I usually lay the Pigeon on his back at an incline so his head is reasonably higher than his body...lay him between my knees to mid thighs as I sit under a good strong light.

In fact, I usually do this in the bathroom, and close the door...this way, if he does get away from me, he can not get far, and is easy to round up for completeing the proceedure.

I have some images posted somewhere...I will post a link to them after this.



Anyway, once you have all the thread/strong off for sure, and have unwound it in the 'right' directions in doing so...

Massage in a good amount of Neosporin, massage it into his Feet and Toes, and let him have some cage time for observation.

Sometimes a Thumb has been bound 'under' and will need a simple Diorthotic or Orthopaedic 'shoe', or series of 'shoes' to get the Thumb back to it's proper position...and usually this can be done in a week thereabouts or a little more. The 'shoes' are easy to make and if needed I will be glad to tell you how.


Till next...

Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

if i make the room dArk will that make it so he doesnt want to fly as much???
im putting this on here too so it appears as the most recent post so someone will see and reply to it....
also, do i let him go right away or keep him while his foot heals??? 
im gonna go get a pic and post it......
he just seems miserable here, not eating or drinking, as i said above though he was eating bread before i caught him downtown

THANKS EVERYONE>>>> I REALLY REALLY APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET>>> ive had him since yesterday and not done anything to him yet, want to check what to do for sure....


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Moxie, Hang in there, someone will be on soon to help you I'm sure. Just want to reassure you about the eating....whenever I get new birds they are slow to eat..the poops turn green..I start to panic, next thing, they settle down and eat and drink like there's no tomorrow. Your rescue bird is out of his environment and is stressed.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*heres a pic....*

ok, we tried to do something about the foot, we got the string around his GOOD toes, but the bad toe we couldnt get it, the string is wrapped SO TIGHT it is cut in way way deep, and closer inspection his toe is turning black in some spots, not dark black, but like gray, and other spots are gray/pink and other spots darker gray. we tried to get in there and got some out but the stuff way deep he would freak out, and we cant get any scissors in there anyways, im sure the toe is lost, but i'd like to try to save it and if i let him go as is his toe drags and he cant go as fast as other birds for food....

any advice on what to do?? i need help here..... the address is below for the pic....


http://www.msnusers.com/stringinjuryonpigeon/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i just added a few more pics to that site address above, so hit next to see them all, sorry if some are bad, its the best i could do.. my camera kept dying, even with brand new batteries, it has a mind of it's own, but i guess thats why someone gave it away, not very dependable.....

this is AFTER we took as much string off as we could, we soaked his foot in a little water to get the scabs loosened up, but it seems as though the string may be by the bone??? I NEED SOME HELP HERE< ANYONE HAVE THIS PROBLEM BEFORE?????

THANKS SOOOOOOOOO MUCH>>>>


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

just making this recent post................


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, first off, don't panic! This is one of those things that you need to be careful doing because sometimes you can take the string off only to have an artery start pumping blood out at a terrific rate to the point of life-threatening. The reason you haven't gotten a timely answer is because the bulk of folks who are experienced at this aren't usually on at this time of day. I haven't even had to do it before, mostly because I live in a place where it's not a normal thing to happen.

When it comes to getting the tight strings off, folks usually use specialized tools from suture-removing scissors to other gadgets that I can't think of but Jazaroo posted something about once. It's often nice to have a sharp surgical probe with a bent end (like a hook) that you can slip in and tow a filament up and out so that it can be more easily cut. But regardess of how you do it and the tools that you have, it is easy to start a bleed so it's best to be prepared for that going in.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*Pidgey, Thank So Much<*

pidgey, did i say that you're my hero?? (he he he he, breaking out in cheesy song!!)

anyhow, thanks pidgey, and everyone else on here. pidgey, i gave him some of that seed you sent me for my last poor baby,(update for the un-informed, i had a bad BAD BAD canker case, my first pidgey rescue, but he died about three hours before pidgey and reti's supplies/medicine arrived from next day air)
so now you see why i break out in the i believe to be whitney houston song when i see pidgey or reti on here!!! LOL, but really, they are my hero's

ok, enough gushing, there is A TON of birds with string injury, but his looked the worst.
i dont have special scissors, i have really tiny scissors, a few of them. im poor as some people know, a struggling student, so no cash, so there-fore no fancy scissors can be had,,,,
im wondering if i should just let him go and let the toe eventually fall off?? IDEAS ON THAT ANYONE>>>>>
ideas on this AT ALL??????????????????????????????
the string DOES NOT UNWIND/UNWRAP, which i was hoping for, we pulled pretty good, but are afraid it is pulling it further tight. and it is wrapped around a good many times....... 
what happens if he does start to bleed real bad, i mean what would i do if that happens??????? THANKS>>>>>


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

About the only thing that I can think of to help get into the area where that thread is the tightest that you might have is a pair of fingernail clippers used on their edge to bite sideways into the tightened thread. I'll go looking for Jaz's stuff and post a link here if I can find it (unless he beats me to it).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the obvious thing to do in an immediate bleed is to pinch it quick and hard and hold it. They will eventually clot but that can take awhile to seal off (half hour?). Some folks use flour, some use styptic pens or powder (it's an old powder used to stop bleeding nicks from shaving--get it at drugstores) and some use a medicine called "Clotisol" which is probably out of the question, here.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Moxie, I'm really glad you were able to get this bird because he does need help. While Pidgey is checking Ron's (Jazaroo) thread for you I wanted to tell you to get a small bowl of flour and have on hand when you start trying to take the string off. If it starts bleeding, dip the toe in flour immediately. Corn starch will work also. Sometimes, the bleeding can be really difficult to stop as you'll read when you see Ron's post. Usually they don't bleed to that extent and flour or corn starch will usually stop it but make sure you have these on hand.

And, I agree with you, Reti and Pidgey are great!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm finding Jaz's stuff slowly, but surely. I'm going to start putting links on this post and will edit and add as I find them:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16034&page=2&highlight=string

Actually, the link above takes you to the second page of a previous thread. When you scroll downward to Jaz's post, read it and then scroll down to the post that I made below it that gives several links. The first one goes to a thread that has pictures of Jaz's tools and other suggestions. Just read and look at all that stuff.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Getting into tight spots in string-tangled pigeon feet and toes*

Hello xxMoxiexx,

I find this scalpel blade very useful. It has the shape of a claw, and is sharp on both sides near the tip. You can slide the blade in parallel to the direction the thread or string takes, and hook it under the thread.

I have an old scalpel handle (also often available a arts and crafts stores). The brand I have (from the U.S.) is *Aesculap* BB73, handle number 3. Mostly the handle size is important, size number 3.

he blade I use is *Martor* brand (from Solingen, Germany), but available worldwide, as are most Solingen products, except for perhaps Japan, which has a good home-grown supply. There is a Martor USA website. 
I have seen these blades available in packs of 100 for about $30-$35 on a US medical supply web-site. I bought a box of ten for about five dollars or so, years ago.

Stick the blade into a cork, wrap the back part of the blade with tape, and carry it with you. Or tape it to an old credit card. (I carry my scalpel with me, with several varying blades). 

The first and only time I caught a pigeon, *Tippy,* starving and emaciated because both feet were bound together, and she had to use her wings as supplemental feet, I spent an hour assembling all sorts of tools, from soldering picks and tools, all sorts of tweezers and knives and Swiss Army knives, while the pigeon was given time to calm down, after eating her fill. My wife sat on a chair on the other side of a lowered ironing board with the bird held in her hands, while I went for the threads with the scalpel. It was finishd quickly in a couple of minutes, so fast that I was almost disappointed. The curved blade has a sharp, "sticky" point that grabs into and between the fine strands of the thread, and by "sawing" back and forth while tugging slightly away from the toe, the thread is lifted out and severed. I used a tweezer to pull some thread from beneath overgrown skin. 

Another pigeon I never caught, "*Scraggly*," had toes swollen to the size of my little finger. It was painful for him, you could tell. He lost all toes, both feet, down to stumps. When the wind blew he would skitter over the pavement like a skater because he had no purchase. After he lost both feet and the stumps healed, he regained nice-looking plumage. He was usually too busy pursuing food, but once in a while he would roo-coo and strut for the ladies. I watched him for ten months, until I last saw him on December 10h, 2005. Either an ongoing infection got him, or some falcons. He was a tough and inspiring pigeon.

Don't give up on the other pigeon you mentioned in your other thread. I thought pigeon *Carter* was dead also, when I didn't see a trace of him one day. I went back to check anyway, and there he was! What to do if he has something obstructing his crop? I will leave that matter to *Pidgey* or *Phil* (pdpbison) or some other expert. I considered maybe (for a possible future occurrence) making a slit in the crop to remove the material. Possibly then gluing it shut with crazy glue (cyanoacrylate, of a type made for animals and vets -- but needs to be well-ventilated!) or else learning some fine sutures and acquiring some small suture needles. 

Larry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Moxie,

It looks this one is not too bad.

To start, it would be good if you had someone to help you hold the bird, as I myself have never attempted to remove any sting by myself. It is delicate work and you will need both hands free if possible.

I would probably start by first massaging some moisturizing cream into the groove the string has cut, I now use Bach's, but any hand cream will do, this will soften things up a little and make the job somewhat easier. After about 10 minutes I would give the foot a good wash with warm soapy water. I usually use a spray bottle to help blast out debris and dirt from the groove, and then I apply colloidal silver to the entire foot, making sure it gets well into the groove. You may skip this step if you do not have colloidal silver.

I next usually try and find a piece of the string that may be hanging out from the groove, if you do, try to determine which way it is wound and unwind it, as this is not always possible and you will move to the next step, which is probing. I have a set of dental tools, you will not have these, so I am posting a tool you can make simple and very cheaply, an altered safety pin that has been bent over at the end. When you finished making this tool, it may take a few tries to get one that is bent just right, now wrap the bird burrito style, this is where a small towel wrapped around the bird so the he makes the "filling" in the centre, Do it so that his head is covered and just the foot you are going to work on is out.

Have the person holding the bird lay the bird in their lap on its side so its feet are facing front out toward you and slightly tilted up, have them be careful to just gently restrain and not constrict the birds breathing. You will now need to probe the groove, at this point I usually apply some maximum strength liquid toothache drops, such as Anbesol Extra Strength, to deaden any pain. I usually probe from the bottom of the foot as there are less blood vessels under than over. Of course, be sure to sterilize any instruments you are using.

You will be trying to hook under the string and gently pull up, depending on a few factors such as, the type of string, how many times it is wrapped around and if you are lucky enough to hook the beginning and are able just to unwind it from the foot it may go quickly for you. You may need to snip the string you pull up with the small shears you have. Another possibility for you, is a seam ripping tool that seamstresses use to safely cut thread and take apart seams. I have one, but to tell you the truth I have never used it as I find the dental tools work well for me.

A few things to remember, while you are trying to be gentle, it is imperative that you probe with authority, you want to make sure you get what you are going after. Also, after you think you have the string off, probe one more time, as it ALL has to come off.

To tell you the truth, in all the sting injuries I have treated, I have never had a bad bleed, save for Pidge where his foot feel off, but that's a whole other story. All bleeding has always been easily manageable with Ferric Chloride, also called Blood Stop or No Bleed. You may also use a alum styptic pencil. I would shave off a little into a powder and place the powder into the groove if bleeding starts, you can also use corn starch or flour. I have never used these, but hear they work well.

The toe will most likely bleed a bit, don't be afraid when this happens and panic and quit, just apply a little blood stop or styptic powder wait a minute and continue. A little bleeding is normal when you are probing, but many times I have had really no bleeding at all.

If by some remote chance it does bleed very badly, you will need to pack the foot very well with corn starch and wrap the foot with good, but not too much, pressure with gauze. Gauze, usually comes in wider rolls and I cut these down into 1" rolls to make it easier to work with one these small feet. Please wet the beginning of the gauze with water, as this will make it easier to remove later.

After you are satisfied you have removed all the string, wash the foot again with warm soapy water. I then usually apply an antibiotic cream and depending on the circumstances I might start the bird on a short coarse of oral antibiotics to prevent infection, but I have only done this a few times where I did not like the colouring of the toe and general area.

I hope this helps for now, and good luck with this little guy.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

To Pidgey and Ron - you two guys just keep on giving us the best information. 

I hope one of the moderators will make this thread a sticky.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, we're getting kinda' heaped up on stickies in some of the areas. We might just need more delineation in the Forums structure to accommodate that.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ex,


The thing is, if one uses the fine tipped Cuticle Scizzors, one can slip one of the tips sharp side "up", UNDER otherwise tight bound string, in order to cut it one strand at a time...sometimes sliding the tip in from an angle within the deep fissure where the string/thread/hair has cut in to the flesh...

This can not be done with tapering items that are sharp on both edges, nor with things too blunt or clumsy.


Anyway, here is a link ( hope it works!) showing something of this...images of the Tweezers and Cuticle Scizzors are on page two.

Sorry the image quality seems to poor, 'webshots' appearently revamped their pages and somehow this had a bad effect on the images in my albums.

http://community.webshots.com/album/468669808EgjJHs



Anyway, this takes patience, method and reasoning to do well, to get all of the string/hair/thread or whatever filliments completely "out"...unwinding single filiments in the correct direction helps a great deal to get all of it out, and if a particular filliment does not wish to unwind in any direction, try another filliment, and so on, till all is off of there, out of there...

I was the first to reply to your thread this morning, and here it is 5:20 in the afternoon and my reply still has not appeared.

Maybe this post will take as long or longer also...if so I am sorry, but it is not my doing.



Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway, as you can tell somewhat in the images, some of his Toes were swelled up like Catapillars, and there were some pretty deep areas of Thread that had tightened in various ways.


Sometimes there will be scar tissue grown over these deep wraps, and one must pull the filliments around literally through the scar tissue, so that in being un-wrapped, the filliments cut through the scar tissue as one proceeds...and this has to be done steadily and surely and with only enough 'pull' for them to slowly come on out and through, and one must be quite sure of which way that thread needs to go to unwind...

The Cuticile Scizzors, because of their extremely fine pointed blades, are unsurpassed for these thread-feet situations, since one can slide the tip of the blade under the tigthtest thread with the least possible effect of tightening that thread, then cut it to have two ends then to unwind with the Tweezers...

On and on...

Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## JoAnne Guille (Jul 23, 2006)

*Hang in there Moxie!*

 You're getting advice from the "Best". I don't know what time it is where you are but it's almost half past midnight here where I am and I'm soon going to be crawling off to bed. I think you may be feeling a tad anxious in regards to asking if you're little friend there should be released soon. I'm guessing that has to do with his (her) refusal to eat. If he is still in a cat carrier that's great because his vision will be limited, assuming of course your carrier is like the ones I have, hard shell plastic with a few "peek" holes. It will help to calm him down if you cover most of the "windows" in the carrier and face the front door away from where you can see hime (and he can see you). I doubt that his hunger strike will last much longer. As long as he can't see you he'll probably settle down and eat soon. Once he does you'll feel better about keeping him until he makes recovery and then you can release him.
Good Luck Good Luck Good Luck! I'll check in tomorrow night (I'll be gone all day and evening tomorrow)...........take care (of yourself as well)...JO


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

thanks for all the advice guys, i was gone last night so it's nice to come home to all these reply's.
i am going to try again, and my roomate actually made the safety pin thing last night, the ONLY thing it seems as i was looking through all the string injury's is my guys is wound SO tight it seems down to the bone.. 
there's some stuff on here i didnt think of though, so im gonna try again in a little bit and i'll keep everyone posted.....
oh, WHAT IS A STICKY THREAD??????? thanks.....


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*What Is A Sticky Thread?*

Hello xxmoxiexx



xxmoxiexx said:


> oh, WHAT IS A STICKY THREAD??????? thanks.....


I think I can answer this. It is a thread that "sticks" to the beginning of a forum, and stays there, ahead of all the other threads, regardless of posting date, because of an action a moderator takes. The moderator or forum members think the topic is of sufficient importance, or recurs often enough, to warrant that action, so that it can answer some questions before they need to be typed and asked, or to save time in case of emergencies . 

*History of the sticky* (which I found interesting, years ago)

A "sticky" note is one of those small pieces of paper, usually in a bright color, that people use to remind themselves or others of something to do. It uses an adhesive discovered by accident --- oh shoot, reach for the _*Wikipedia*_ --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_note

*The Post-it note*

A Post-it note (or simply Post-it), invented and manufactured by 3M, is a piece of stationery with a readherable strip of adhesive on the back, designed for temporarily attaching notes to documents, computer displays, and so forth. While now available in a wide range of colors, shapes, and sizes, the most common size of Post-it note is a 3-in (7.5-cm) square, trademark canary yellow in color. The notes use a unique low-tack adhesive that enables the Post-its to be easily attached and removed without leaving marks or residue. The names Post-it and Post-it note—as well as the canary yellow color—are trademarks of 3M, the company which invented and manufactures them. Accepted generic terms for competitors include sticky notes or repositionable or repositional notes; nonetheless, Post-it note is frequently used as a generic term for any such product. 3M markets other products towards the Post-it note concept, leveraging the success of the brand. As Post-it have been driven towards computerized versions like Stickies or Ptimemo, 3M markets its own software under the name of 'Post-it software note'. 

*History*

The original adhesive used in Post-it notes was invented in 1968 by Spencer Silver, a 3M researcher. While attempting to design a strong adhesive, he instead developed an adhesive that was very weak. No immediate application was apparent, until 1974 when a colleague, Arthur Fry, conceived of using the adhesive to create bookmarks while contemplating a hymnal in his church choir, Fry's traditional notes had fallen from his hymn book on multiple occasions giving him the idea of creating Post-it notes. Initial prototypes were available in 1977, and by 1980–1981, after a large sampling campaign, the product had been introduced around the world, being produced exclusively in Cynthiana, Kentucky.

*Post it today*

Since 2001, the glue used for Post-its has fallen into public domain and can be produced and marketed by other companies than 3M, lowering its price and making it even more popular. The term "Post-it" is still a trademark of 3M and cannot be used by any other company, whether for commercial use or not. Electronic versions of Post-it have been developed as well since, making it a universal concept. Since they cannot be marketed under the term "Post-it", they often use the term "Stickies" or "Ptimémo" (french). 

Larry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, we got the string, turned out we had gotten most of it, but i had to cut some scab away to find that out, no bleeding, but he is starving i think, so i should let him go huH?
I CANNOT DEAL WITH ANOTHER BIRD DYING UNDER MY CARE!! i'm sure some of you understand on here, some maybe not. but i care probably TOO MUCH for animals, and some of you know my first pigeon rescue about a month ago died, and i am severely traumatized by the whole experience, and i dont want to feel like anything i help ends up dying, therefore turning away an animal/bird that needs help that i could of helped, i dont want to be that person but i dont want all this pain of getting attached and loving something that i have to bury.
his toe is lost, it is down to the bone, and hanging by only the bone.
please help me with what i should do, the poor thing hates me. he really does. i dont blame him right now either...
oh, just wanted to say for future reference, the tooth numbing stuff worked WONDERS!!! i also used hydrogen peroxide to loosen the scabs...
so i did save his good toes though.....
his keel bone is sharp and pronounced, he's hungry/starving....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

the toe is gonna fall of, it's much blacker, i thought since it was so swollen i could save it as the swelling made me think there was blood going in there, but no.
it is pinkish-gray and black in some spots.....


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Deep-embedded threads on toes*

xmoxiexx,

I haven't read or re-read all the other posts regarding string removal due to time limits in my schedule, so I may be repeating what others have already said, and I hope I don't contradict anything they have said. If there is a contradict, I defer to the experts, pidgey and pdpbison/phil and jazaroo et alii.

Imagine the bird's claw as one of your fingers. You have a tendon on the top of the finger to open or lift the finger, and one on the inside/palm side of the hand to close the finger, or to make a fist. (you know this, because it becomes obvious upon reflection, but it is worth repeating. In the hurry and bustle of the moment, one can forget this). 

Do not make a cut across the claw, that is, in the direction you would cut if you were trying to remove the claw or finger. This type of cut could be described in various other ways, such as a cut in the plane perpendicular to the axis of the finger, or a radial cut, or a cross-section cut, or a cut parallel to the circumference of a ring on the finger, etc. 

I may be repetitous, but I have personally spent hours trying to figure out what someone meant by a certain word or phrase. For example, I have read: "Cut or trim the fingernail straight across." Do they mean the shortest distance through the thickness of the nail keratin, or the shortest distance from the proximal side of the finger to the distal side of the finger (proximal: the side situated nearer to the center of the body, or to the point of attachment; distal, the farther side). I know that someone who is not as persnickety in words as I am gets to the answer and meaning quicker. But sometimes erroneously. 

If the thread is taut, to the bone, all the way around the digit, there will be no circulation and eventually there wil be gangrene, death of tissue. If there is swelling of the digit outside the thread, towards the tip of the digit, it means that fluid went past the thread but then could not return to the body core. Pressure will keep the blood and lymph from circulating in the area. If there is swelling, it may not be too late to save the digit or claw. The longer the swelling persists, the more the nerves are deadened, and the less pain the pigeon feels in that area.

The tendons do not have a rich circulating blood supply of oxygen, so if (anarobic) bacteria are introduced, infection and necrosis can result with long-term effects. (I have not seen any pigeons with missing digits survive more than a year here in Cologne. Cooler weather may play a part. I think that after digit loss, there is a slow, continuing infection in untreated pigeons). 

A safety pin is soft metal, is flexible, bends easily, hard to sharpen to a fine point. A sewing needle is hardened, brittle, can be sharpened, but will break if you try to bend it (and pieces can be projected into the unprotected eye). If you heat a needle too much in a flame it will lose its temper. 

Cut along the length of the digit, along an imaginary line drawn on the finger or digit from the palm to the fingertip. That way you can most likely avoid cutting completely across an artery or vein or nerve or tendon. These also run diagonally. but hopefully any accidental cut will be only a slit and not a complete severance. 

I can again recommend the scalpel blade I mentioned earlier, for future use. The last couple of millimeters at the tip or point of the blade is slanted away from the outside or spine side of the blade, so that it is possible to use the point of the blade as a PICK for getting under the strands of the thread and for lifting the thread, before commencing the cutting of the thread (and also, by implication, it will not cu into the underlying flesh if one is careful). It is hard to explain, but it is interesting. I recommend tha others give it a try if they are interested. Perhaps practice on a dummy subject, such as thread tied aound a grape or a banana or some such soft object. If the thread is tough and wiry and stringy, then scissors or some such crimping or pinching wedge device has to be used. I removed a clump of (synthetic? nylon? human?) hair from the foot of pigeon *Carter*r last Monday, and had to use scissors rather than the curved Martor scalpel blade. 

Larry

*P.S. started this post before your two other posts appeared. I'm a slow typist.

Please don't let the bird die alone. Give him a quiet, warm place if he is actually dying. These birds are tough, but above all, they are dignified. Let him feel safe when he is dying, if nothing else. Have some food and water placed before him, even if you know he can't or won't use it. Let him feel loved, cared for. He will sense it. I know what you feel, and my wife feels just as you do. We had pigeon Carter die here a few days ago.

Larry*


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Well done for getting the string off - it sounds as though he will lose the toe anyway.

If he is so underweight is there any wya you can hold onto him for a few weeks to feed him up a bit and to ensure that part of the foot where the dead toe is when it drops off, remains infection free.

I think if you let him go now - you won't be helping him much - he will still probably be in a lot of pain, and possible infection and may actually not survive if he is set free now.

He many not like you but that's OK - he is a wild bird after all but if you feed him up then he may stand a chance. It would be a shame for all your good work to be compromised.

Good luck

Tania x


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*what do i do about the bird starving???*

he's not eating at all, and i've tried to let him know i'm here to help and build trust, but it isnt happening....
his keel bone is out... im just re-writing this so someone sees it (recent post)

he wont eat.... or i havent seen him drink either.....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the best thing to do with string-injury birds is to catch them, remove the string and then release them in short order because it's highly possible that they've got young. That is assuming that the only thing wrong with them is the string, of course.

If you determine that there are other things wrong, then those have to be addressed and that may warrant keeping them for the time being. It is good to have a scale to weigh them with and then you can start getting a better idea if a bird is truly starving, never mind the cause. There are plenty of them that have a keel that's prominent because they're young and haven't filled out yet or just that they do more flying than eating.

If a bird is going on a hunger strike because it wants to leave, it's just a tough call as to whether letting it go is the best thing to do versus keeping it longer looking for another cause like illness or worms. That's kinda' tough. So, is there any way that you can weigh this bird?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Moxie,

Well done getting the thread off.

At this point I am going to defer to some of the others to offer further advice. As although I have years of experience with birds, I am still in my learning curve on Pigeons and and there are so many really experienced people here to now offer advice on how to now proceed.

I will say that the decision to get involved with a rescue sometimes makes for hard choices and often times heartbreak. The feeling that you want relieved of the responsibility for his life by now letting him go is quite understandable, but now that you are involved you have to do what is best for the bird, and that very well may mean letting him go, or it may mean keeping him a while longer for treatment to ensure a better chance of survival for him.

Information on his weight, what his droppings look like and what the inside of his mouth looks like will be a start to give the best advice for you.

For him to start to eat, he has to feel secure. How I do this is I use a small cage, about 20"x20"x20", and cover all sides except the front with a blanket and I do cover the front about half way down. I line the bottom with a towel and provide seed and water in dishes and I usually spread some seed around for the bird to start to peck at and keep him in a quite room. After a while they feel more secure and do start to eat.

All the best,

Ron


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You've got great advice. 
Personally I wouldn't let him go yet, not until100% sure he is alright and the toe is healing somewhat, or at least doesn't show any signs of infection.. He also might have other things going on, so it is good to keep him under observation.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*what about him not eating????*

i dont know what to do, jazarroo, when you say they start to eat after a while, how long is a while???/
well, he's here for the night si i'll check on his poo tonight, and i only have a regular human scale so i'll try, i'm gonna squirt some water in his mouth, maybe try to put some seed in there too. or wet cat food, i know from reading on here to wet the cat food and what, JAM IT IN HIS THROAT?!?! wont that choke him???
will a human scale work??? it is digital so it says 147.2lbs for example, so it does break it down to increments of a pound, but no ounces, sorry...
what else should i check for besides the throat/poo/weight???
a fly flew off of him yesterday, i dont know if that means anything or not....
pidgey, is this the time of year for young??? would he/she have tiny babies that are dying right now withought him/her????
i thought the young were all grown this time of year????


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I didn't see the earlier posts about you getting the string off. I might have even confused this case with another. Anyhow, you have the stuff to make sure that he doesn't starve because you've got the tube-feeding stuff that I sent you as well as the formula stuff that both Reti and I sent you.

You'd need to review the thread that discusses tube-feeding though. Tell us if you're up to it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You're not going to be able to weigh him on a human scale. About the only thing you can do is to weigh him in your hand against an amount of water in a large paper or styrofoam cup (that doesn't weigh much itself). That's kinda' hard to do but it can be done that way to get a reasonable idea. Anyhow, don't just jam stuff in his mouth--you can roll dried peas down and corn kernels one at a time and let him swallow. You'd want to get at least a teaspoon's worth at a session. If he needs water, he'll probably drink some on his own unless he's really sick.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't squirt water in his mouth. If you want to make absolutely sure that he's getting water, tube it in with that stuff--it's a lot safer. Just discuss it with me first.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Moxie,

As to starting to eat, no more than a day and usually much less, very soon after they feel secure. If he does not start to eat, or drink, once you have offered security to him, than this would be a good indication something else is going on with him.

Try and keep track of the amount of seed you are offering, especially the seed you spread to see if some is disappearing and the water level in his water dish. Also, I now realize you have the necessary equipment and food to tube feed him, so this should ease your mind somewhat in a way, but probably terrorize you in another.

"Tubing" is not that hard and you have the best people around, as well as stills and even a video, to instruct you on how to do it at this site.

Take a deep breath and slowly let it out, relax a little and we'll get you and you little guy through this.

All the best,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i dont think he has eaten or drank... im going to look up the tube feeding stuff again, is there any way i can call someone on the phone if i'm still a little unsure??? to walk me through it?? that would make me feel MUCH MUCH better, i'm gonna look at the stuff right now, but let me know ok???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Would you be surprised if I told you that a lot of folks want to know that a moral support call is possible?

All you need to do is open the beak and look down behind the base of the tongue to see where the airway opens. It's not really very easy to get something going down that hole, especially with the soft tube that you have. You almost can't hurt the bird at all with those, in fact.

As a matter of fact, you can do it as a "dry run" with nothing in the syringe if you like just to get the feel of it. 

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i put water in a styraphoam cup, weighed him in one hand with my roomate covering his eyes (he flew away when i tried to do it myself and almost knocked himself out on the ceiling) and dumped water out accordingly until it was roughly the same weight, then put the water in a measuring cup, which measured out to 8 oz. (1 cup), and i would say he is roughly that MAYBE a little more, his poops are green, dark green but when it is smeared it is grass green as he had some smeared from walking in it, and it is clay like consistency, although it might not be fresh, but not as hard as clay like, like a wet clay, and it has some white around it.
i didnt look in his throat yet, i figured when the tube feeding came about i would do that, i'm going to look for a big box to make a more comfy house in, as the cat carrier may be too small?? do you think?? it's like a regular rectangular box/cat carrier???
ok, pidgey, i have the kaytee exact you sent me, or i have the "harrisons bird foods juvenile hand feeding formula", should i use kaytee??
what is crop slow-down??? it warns of that on the bottle of kaytee....
so how much kaytee exact exactly and how much water?? and should i add some sugar or salt or honey or ANYTHING to the kaytee???
IS a moral support call possible?? if not i understand, you guys are crazy busy with people like me going insane.....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

how much should he weigh???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How much he should weigh depends on how big of a bird he is. Eight ounces is about 250 grams, though. That's a bit on the thin side for a medium sized feral.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As to the bird formula, let's do it this way this first time: get a regular spoon that you normally use to eat and load it up level. Put that in a small cup and then put two of the same spoon full of water. Mix all that up and then keeping mixing it for about a minute. That should get you to the consistency of cheap ketchup. You can load that into the syringe from the back with the plunger pulled out. You can hold it mostly horizontal and stick the plunger in slightly and then tilt it back and slowly push it in--the trick is to NOT shoot the ceiling out the nozzle so you're trying to tap the syringe while you're tilting it back and clear the nozzle so that you can push the plunger most of the way up to clear out the air. Then, install the tube--it's a tight fit. You did do the dry run first, didnt'cha'?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

NO!! no dry run yet....
what do you mean shoot the ceiling out the nozzle??? shoot the formula out so it hits the ceiling??
i'm just trying to put the formula in and get the air out, right?? pull the plunger out, put it back in while i let the formua slide down TO the plunger so it doesnt squirt out, RIGHT?? what about the air in the rubber tubing?? will that hurt him???


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i want to get it all mixed up and ready so i dont have to pull him out twice for the dry run then the real one....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, this guy is sooo sooo feisty, how do i know if it's normal feisty or you've got that thing in my lungs feisty???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, air bubbles in the syringe or tubing going into the crop isn't going to have any effect--that's when you're giving a shot into the veins or arteries.

Yes, it's messy to shoot the ceiling with a little (or a lot) formula. That's all I meant.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's certainly not something they enjoy unless they get it a lot and need it--then they don't get bothered so much. Terry's going to give you a call if that's possible.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When you've got a real feisty bird, it's often better to make a "pigeon burrito" by way of wrapping them in a towel to keep their wings and feet from really getting ridiculous.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Moxie,

I'll try to help you with this over the phone if you like .. just PM me your phone #, and I'll give you a call.

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

OK!! OH MY GOD!! that was the single most scary thing ever, my roomate thinks it went well, but i'm not sure, i looked and i saw the slit, the airway i presume, like at the back of his tounge, so didnt go there obviously, so i went from his left towards his right and i got it down fine on the dry run, but he went nuts, so i pulled it out, hooked up the formula, got a better grip on his head and got it down 2-3 inches, saw he wasnt choking and went for it, slowly, almost all was gone and a LITTLE came back up and dribbled out his beak!!!! that isnt supposed to happen, is it?? i pulled it out right away and let him breathe, he just opened and closed his beak a few times and that was it, when i put him back he made like a weird growling bird sound if that makes sense, but he has made that sound before when he is scared, like when i am close to grabbing him or what not....
so WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE KAYTEE EXACT COMING BACK UP?? DID I DO THIS RIGHT?? IS HE OK??? im afraid he could of inhaled it, cant they just breathe through their nose when you do the tube feeding??
PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF HE"S ALRIGHT OR NOT?????
THANKS SO SO SO SO SO SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds like he's fine but you're not. You might try going deeper in next time to keep it from coming back up but sometimes it rides back up with the tube coming out. You'll get better at it.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

so it's happened with you before pidgey?? ya, my roomate said how great i did and all that (i assume to calm me down)
i'll be ok... i know i must sound like a psycho right now pulling my hair out in chunks or something, i'll live, (for now, LOL)
thanks everyone for being so patient with me, i know it must be like, "oh no, she's having a heart attack again!! GET THE VALIUM< HURRY!!!" ha ha ha
im just trying being as thorough as humanle possible and then some!!
what do you think those noises are that he makes?? if you know what the heck i'm talking about cause i really dont know how to explain it well...
im going to bed everyone, sweet dreams, right?? i'll be back in the morning, but when should this tube feeding happen again??

THANKS EVERYONE!!!


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*the noise*

the noise is normal, the bird is saying "leave me alone or i will slap you!".  really.
if he is that feisty you definitely have to burrito wrap him, it will be better for the bird and a lot easier for you. thanks for taking care of the lil pigeon.

Aias 



Pidgey said:


> Sounds like he's fine but you're not. You might try going deeper in next time to keep it from coming back up but sometimes it rides back up with the tube coming out. You'll get better at it.
> Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Moxie, I hope you made it through the night 
The bird will be alright. As Pidgey mentioned, try to go deeper with the tube and the formula shouldn't get back up.

Reti


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

xxmoxiexx said:


> i'll be ok... i know i must sound like a psycho right now pulling my hair out in chunks or something, i'll live, (for now, LOL)
> thanks everyone for being so patient with me, i know it must be like, "oh no, she's having a heart attack again!! GET THE VALIUM< HURRY!!!" ha ha ha


Oh Moxie,

I've never had to tube feed a bird either, but if I did....

I KNOW that I'd sound EXACTLY like you in your post, for sure!!!

It sounds like you did really well, despite the near nervous breakdown (LOL).

Thanks for all you are doing and best of luck to you.

Linda


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i've been getting up the guts all morning to tube-feed again, so wish me luck, i took a damn sleeping pill last night, i couldnt sleep, i wonder why, huh?? LOL!! so i woke up way late.
what do his poops mean?? the dark green wet soft clay consistency, with some white around it?? his throat/beak looked ok, pinkish, so no canker i could see.
should i be giving this guy antibiotics?? 
ok, WISH ME LUCK!! I NEED IT!!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

I DID IT!! it went much much easier this time, i got it far down, and none came up!!! you just have to get your grip down on him, then its much better...
getting him out of the cat carrier is a whole other story though!! he sure can growl at you!!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not for absolute certain, but I think you're actually going to become a rehabber in time! Keep up the good work.

As to the poop, there's only a thousand different ways it can be and that doesn't sound particularly bad. It's best if they've got a solid ball with a "whitecap" or little blast of white cream on top (no cherry). The whiter it is, the better, but they sometimes go a bit off-white when they're getting formula. I say that because off-white often signals a problem and extremely off-white is very bad.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Good job Moxie,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*ok... fed him again*

....he is all puffed up, and i watched him for about 5 minutes and he stayed like that, again staying on just one leg, the toe is getting blacker and blacker.
i noticed as i put him back after feeding he is shaking a little bit...
should i be worried about something?? like infection i mean??


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, his poops are now white with a pile of pasty green on it


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, by the syringe, how many cc's (ml's) are you feeding him per tubed meal?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When they're growing, a good guideline (not the only one, but it's the one I use) is to feed them 10 to 15% of their weight per meal, three times per day. You compared this guy to a cup of water and we decided that he's approximately 250 grams. That would roughly compute out to 25 to 37 cc's per meal, three times per day. That's going to be a fair amount more than the amount you gave him in that first shot.

Shaking is a funny thing--they can do it for any of many reasons and in different ways. You might want to describe that further.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just so everyone assisting in this thread knows .. I had a PM from Moxie this AM asking about how much to feed and responded as follows:

_20 cc per feeding is a safe amount .. the bird might be able to handle up to 35 cc per feeding. You will be able to figure out how much it takes to fill the crop after a couple of feedings. Very young birds have a more elastic crop and can easily take 35 cc while older birds have a crop more suited to seeds as opposed to liquid and can generally handle up to 20 cc with no problem. You can gradually increase the amount per feeding until you find the maximum where the crop is plump._

This doesn't disagree with what anyone else had posted, but I don't want Moxie getting confused about anything that might be perceived as conflicting information. 

These types of situations are the very reason that I don't care for PM's and private e-mails about birds that are being discussed on the board .. it leaves everyone else in the dark. I did that very thing this morning and am now fessing up that I did one of my pet peeves to myself  

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*hey..*

... i have the 20 cc syringe, not the 35 cc syringe, and doing 3 times a day evenly spaced out is gonna be tricky because i leave at 7 am and dont get back till 9pm for the next couple days/school...
i did 2x today.....
i'm just wondering the shaking if he's sick, what are the other signs of an infection????


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i gave full 20 cc's twice today////
does he need vitamin d?? on account of being inside???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, because everything is in that formula. Don't worry about the nutrition. If he stays fluffed up then we might try to see if we can get him warmer for now. He may be fighting something off.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i've been keeping the heater on in there....gone for the day, i'll be back tonight, unless i can sneak off to the comuter lab to check in....


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Amazing how much I miss being "off site" for a day, so to speak!

Have been following this thread and just flying by to wish you LOADS of MORAL support and HUGS! Keep up the good work! You are doing JUST FINE! HANG IN THERE! You have GREAT member support!

AND, thank you for taking the time to wish me Happy Birthday! This year was a real winner!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

YOUR WELCOME MR. SQUEAKS!!! actually, it was my mom's b-day yesterday too!!!
i made a donut for this little guy to sit on and he's lovin it. still growls like crazy though. TAWhatley told me i probably have to keep him for a few weeks to fatten him up, so we gotta get used to each other, him more than me. he's sooo d*mn cute though!!! i'll have to get more pics to put up. his toe is turning blacker and blacker, so it's gotta fall off. i've been doing the tooth drops once in a while to numb it for him, and some hydrogen peroxide. he hasnt been puffed up anymore, although it's DAMN hot in there with the heater, and i've put a glass of water in front of it for some humidity. my cat keeps scratching at the door to the room he's in!!! poor thing probably hears my cat meowing when i'm gone!! 
anyhow, i snuck home today real quick to get in a 2nd feeding so i could fit 3 in today. took an hour to get home on the damn bus to stay for 5 minutes and an hour back!!! the buses are HORRIBLE here. and imagine this, when i found him, i had to sneak him in my jacket on the train and bus home, using ONE hand to dig into my bag for change and my bus pass. everyone probably thought i was holding a gun or bomb in my jacket the way i was looking so damn suspicious, looking into my jacket real quick so no one noticed!! but they did of course, i just didnt want him to get away on the bus because they woulda freaked out, some of them probably would of eaten him!!!
poor pidgey's, they got it real rough....


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Moxie, you're doing a great job with this bird. You'll be a pro rehabber in no time.

One thing I wanted to mention, do not use peroxide on the skin or any wounds, it can burn healthy tissue and inhibits the healing process. Even diluted and on healthy skin it can burn. I cleaned the walls of the bird room one day with peroxide and you don't want to know what my hands looked like after that, plus the burning sensation was pretty unpleasant.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

OH!! ok, thanks reti!! i'm gonna post more pics today so you all can see what the toe looks like, if i can get my camera to work, that is....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

hey you guys, my camera is not cooperating......
ok, his toe has fallen off!! im so glad!! but today when i finsished tube feeding him i had him wrapped in a burrito because there was no one here to help me, so i had to clean his water bowl, so i carried him in the burrito with me, and i noticed i heard him wheezing, so i loosened up the towel, still was doing it, then i put him in his cage and he seemed to stop?? i am almost positive i didnt get it in his airway.... what could it of been?? i'm just second guessing myself since i heard him do that, god!! I HOPE IT"S NOTHING!! what other symptoms should i be looking for if something is wrong???
also, i think he's ready to go, if this is all well, what do i need to do to prepare him to go back outside???


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, he is eating SOME seeds, and mostly i dont know about water cause he poops in it all the time, and his poop does seem to contain fragments of seed. it is more of an olive green these days, with a little white UNDERNEATH the olive green thick kinda pasty.
i've had him since not this last thursday, but the one before. his crop seems full, no more keel bone poking out so bad, but i cant for the life of me find the "v" you guys always talk about.....


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Hey Moxie, what a great job! It sounds like he's settling down with you. Someone will be along to tell you about the wheezing, I wouldn't worry about it a lot right now if it's not bad. I just wanted to tell you that I had a pigeon who I found on a pier in San Francisco many years ago, and she had fishing thread woven into all of her toes. We did the same thing you did, in removing it, and three of the toes did turn black and fall off. She never knew the difference and lived several more years just as easily balanced as any other pigeon. And as for you worrying about sounding crazy or too upset, many of us get like that, especially in an emergency like this and especially on this board!!  Last month Teebo (in NY) shipped me (in CA) three pijies and they didn't show up when they were supposed to. It was both of our first time shipping and you can imagine the panicked posts we made! (They were just fine when they arrived). Good luck!!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

maryjane, did you release that pigeon or keep it?? i dont think i'd say he's settling down though, he wants to go outside, i feel bad for him, really it seems like he's depressed....


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I did keep Pierre (named after Pier 39, where she was found lol). She was covered in oil when we got her (from bathing in the Bay  ), and after several Dawn washings, came out to be a light gray barred instead of the black we originally thought she was. She was an older hen when we found her and pretty sick, too, so there wasn't a lot of fight at first in her, which made everything much easier than you're dealing with. I did end up keeping her because she became very attached to me and was always very, if you will, grateful almost. She would eye the open door with disdain and never leave my side, if she could help it. IF ONLY they were all so easy!!! 

From what I've read so far about the one you have, he is probably younger and obviously much more anxious to get back outside. In my opinion, I would keep him at least for another few days, wait till the toe falls off, get his weight to a nice amount, and then plan to release him when he seems healthy again and able to go one his own. As someone mentioned, he may have a mate waiting for him, or possibly babies. Thinking about that can make you feel bad for keeping him away, BUT releasing him before he's well will just make it worse for him. If you can take care of him for another few days until you feel he's okay to go, I think that would be best for you both. He doesn't sound like a candidate for a pet pigeon. And his mate will wait for him for a long time, so don't worry about that either. You mentioned that your other pigeon was a rescue that had a sad ending (which I'm sorry to hear, I know how hard that is!!). Have you ever had a real "pet" pigeon? From what you've said and how much you obviously care, I think you would love to have a tame pijie that will appreciate all of your love and care (instead of wingslapping and growling at you lol). And remember too, the more he growls and slaps, the better, since that means he is feeling good!!  Just hang in there.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, he may be feeling bad rather than depressed. Personally, I would keep him until his poop improves and the wheezing is gone. That may mean a couple of weeks.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I agree with all the advice you've gotten already.
Sounds like he is releasable, but he needs to be 100% to make it outside.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Moxie,

I'll tell you what--let's go ahead and treat this bird for Canker. There's just a couple of things that I don't like the sound of so let's see if this takes care of it (although he can get better all on his own and you'll never know whether it was time or med). Look for the wide flat-ish pills that I sent that have "FLAGYL" imprinted on the side. Take that pill and cut it in half, then half again, then half again and finally those pieces in as good of a half as you can get them into. That'll get you to the 16 milligram range and you can give one of those pieces to the bird per day. Let's go for five days.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, did I send you some small pills (not capsules) that are flat and about a quarter of an inch in diameter? If so, those are Baytril 7.5 milligram pills and I'd like to know that we have that in reserve if necessary. Those would be given to that bird at the rate of one per day because he's about a half-pound. They're geared to a one-pound racing pigeon and this bird is half of that.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Moxie had PM'ed me (or posted, can't remember for sure) about her syringe getting sticky. Bad. I've thought about mentioning this several times but always forget when online: The rubber (neoprene, whatever they are) part of all syringes eventually start getting real sticky in syringes that are used over and over, especially when they're cleaned or exposed to water on a regular basis. It's a normal to think that you can lubricate them with vegetable oil or petroleum jelly but the results that I have had is that such stuff always causes the rubber part to expand and the sticking gets even worse. Once they start expanding, it's pretty much over.

So, what I finally found out was that the lubricant used is silicone based. I got and have used this stuff:

http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?pf_id=50079&dept_id=121

to spray on the black rubber part whenever it starts sticking as well as in the cylinder of the syringe. You just let it dry for a few hours before you use it again. I've kept a single syringe going for months and months and months this way--I would estimate that it has saved me from buying at least 20 syringes so far in two years.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey - interesting info. We used to use syringes that had a thick black end on the plunger. After a week or so they started jamming and we would throw them away. We switched to the syringes with the 0-rings and have had no further problems. 

Thanks for the tip.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

which symptoms are you talking about pidgey??? also, what would be a good thing to say to a vet to get him to give me the syringe?? so far the silicone has worked, and when i did use the veggie oil i washed it off afterwards, so if it's swelled its not much, so for now it's ok. also, they sell hypodermic syringes over the counter at the pharmacy now (clean rigs for addicts) do you think they might have one of giant proportions?? i guess i'll just go check and answer my own damn question.... 
wonder what causes vegetable oil to make it expand? weird huh???
ok, pidgey, i have, and would like to know what it all is too, a small vial of yellow powder, then the 4 flagyl, then another small vial with 7 small white pills with no print, just the indentation that is there for easier splitting in half....
....also, i have a couple small syringes, with the orange caps, then another, 1 that is 1.0 cc, blue print on it, no cap.. what are those to be used for?? or were to be used for the last poor baby pidgey?? (not really a baby, but in my eyes he was) also, the terramycin, which i assume was for the last guys eye...
so all in all, i break the flagyl into 8th's?? and once a day?? i've been going for 2 feedings a day just cause he is eating a TINY bit of seed from what i see, is that cool???? Can you tell in their poop if they are eating seed?? 
sorry 100 questions guys, just i used that damn veggie oil on the syringe plunger so i want to be sure not to make a more vital mistake. now the other pills, if their what you think, i give it to him or no?? any other symptoms i should be looking for?? and the flagyl, will that take care of a number of things that COULD be wrong with him???
ok, thanks everyone, and thanks dad!!! just so everyone knows, pidgey adopted me in a sense, so i'm not up for adoption anymore, unless you have a spare bedroom in the bahamas or something!! (sorry pidgey!! he he he he)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Wheezing and getting seed parts out through the poop. Those aren't the normal symptoms for Canker but we occasionally lose birds to hidden cankers down in the liver, proventriculus and other internal places as well as occasionally being in the pulmonary system. Treating is cheap insurance.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, crush the flagyl in his food, or what??? or could i crush the whole pill, and THEN cut it into 16mg pieces???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you can cut the pill up into the described pieces, just drop one piece (or group as the case may be) down his gullet. You can put it in the food but if you see it go down then you don't have to worry that it didn't make it in.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, the wheezing worried me, but it was only that one time when i had him in a burrito, but then again he might have been doing it and i didnt notice, so i've been listening now. also, the poop, i wouldnt say whole seeds come out, more like if it's a tiny seed, like the shell PIECE of the tiny seed, and like a small splinter of sunflower seed shell, and i THINK a piece of corn shell, it wasnt yellow though, clear. 
also, i've read on here about stargazing, i dont know if he does it, but i've never seen him sleep, although the door to that room is so loud it probably wakes him. he does just stare, but i think he's just starin at me, and a lot of the time if i snap in a different spot he looks real quick. i'm probably being paranoid about that.....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, as to respiratory problems, a stethoscope is a pretty good tool. In your case, you'd want a reasonably healthy bird to listen to for comparison.

When they're in the house, they often get bored and don't do a lot of looking around because usually there's nothing going on. It only takes a few days for them to figure out that it's safe.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*i dont think he sees it here as safe*

he sees it as being away from his buddies, and he still growls like crazy, poor baby...
so what about the poop?? still sound iffy?? and what is the powder you gave me pidgey?? and the pills, are they the ones you thought they were, and do i give it to him??
i'll be in school all day tomorrow, so i'll check in tomorrow night, and get all the updates from ya all then.
i've got a new addition also, not a pidgey, but a damn baby field mouse, he was still, cold and lifeless when i found him, after bein' beaten up by some stray kitties. so, he got away today, and he freakin bit me!! no love, i tell ya, no love. 
i had to rip up the carpet to find him, he burrowed under the carpet via the baseboard heater.... he seems better, but i guess i have to feed him till he grows up, and even then i might not be able to release him... i know, i know, it's just a mouse, but i'm an equal opportunity employer!!!! 
i may not be gettin the lovin from these guys, but i sure got too much, i tell ya...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The powder is "Medistatin" which is a form of the anti-fungal drug "Nystatin". It is only used down the throat when a fungal overgrowth is suspected in the crop (usually Candida; Candidiasis). You haven't given any indication to be worried about that so don't worry about the powder right now.

As to the pills, describe them and I'll tell you what they're for.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, pidgey and everyone, did 5 days on the good stuff, flagyl. a couple days off of it now.... when to release??? what should i be looking for, as to symptoms of illness, to make sure he's ready for release??
and what do i do to ready him for release?? bathe him or waterproof his feathers, see, i'm gonna be gone wednesday morn to thursday night at a friends family's house, so i want to let him go, but i want to be sure, and if needed i would stay home with him instead of leaving if it was vital to his health/well being....etc.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess if he's looking good, eating good, pooping good, drinking good and generally making a pain of himself, it's time to let him go, eh? So, how does all that look?

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, if you think he's good to go, now is the time .. meaning on Tuesday as early in the day as you can so you have a chance to be sure all is well before you leave. If any doubts, please wait to release until after you are back and can keep an eye out on the bird. If you aren't comfortable with releasing the bird tomorrow and don't have a bird sitter while you are gone, just set him up with extra food and water, and he will be fine from Wednesday AM until Thursday PM. If you'll be gone any longer than that, then we probably need a plan "B" which would include someone to bird sit at their place or come to your place and take care of the bird.

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i'm still tube feeding him, as he's not eating much. maybe thats why he's not eating much?? i really think he's just lonely, no other birds here, and he's so wild that he wants to get away. he's still fighting like hell to get away. i tried just tube feeding once a day for a couple days to see if he's eat, but his keel bone started to become more pronounced. once in a while when i bust in the room i see him standing right up to the water and food dish, like he had been eATING. i will check his poo in a little bit and let you know what it's like.
i'm not gonna release today unless i'm sure.... so i want to get some more advice here. also, what about the waterproofing, is that necessary??

thanks all...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

If there is ANY doubt whatsoever, don't release.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Doesn't sound as though the pij is ready to go yet if you are still tube feeding
or augmenting food intake w/tubing. The water/weather proofing is important
as well. Perhaps you need to hang on to this one a little longer.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It does sound like this one isn't quite ready to go yet. It definitely has to be completely self feeding first and waterproof as well. A bath or two and some preen time will help get the feathers into condition.

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*ok, new info on pidgey...*

...when i thought i was feeling his keel bone protruding, well i think i was wrong. i feel the keel bone protrude but down on his belly, close to the legs, that area. on his chest it feels kind of mushy, soft and full. like he's puffed up a LITTLE, but not really puffed up, know what i mean???
also, i hooked up a cardboard box to put him in, with a bunch of little windows and got him a stick to put across for him to perch, and he flies up to perch there.
I REALLY REALLY think he's ok, ready to go back into the wild, with his flock, i think he's not eating a lot because he's not with his flock, doesnt have them to copy, so he's not eating too much. 
Also, all you guys have other pidgey's, so when you bring one in he's got company, knows it's all ok because all the other pidgey's let him know it's cool. 
he wont eat in front of me, he just sits still and stares, so he's scared of me and it hasn't gotten any better in that regard since he's been here, so what do you guys think??? i'll be back tomorrow night and hopefully i'll have some advice then....
 thanks you guys, 
happy thanksgiving...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Think of it this way: if a bird's got a chest to make Arnold Schwarzeneggar proud--it's usually not underfed. On the other hand, if the keel protrudes like the blade of a meat cleaver, then you've got a real problem. Anything in between, it just depends on which way it's going over time.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, it might be a good idea to start off w/the feathers, as TAW suggested,
to get them where they need to be (no soap, tho). While the feathers are
correcting, if you measure the amount of seed that you are putting in with the
bird at the start of the day, you can measure it at the end and get an idea
of how much the bird is self feeding and post back.

fp


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> if you measure the amount of seed that you are putting in with the
> bird at the start of the day, you can measure it at the end and get an idea
> of how much the bird is self feeding and post back.
> 
> fp


except, when i re-measure, there's more poop in it, so i can never tell whether there's less or not, maybe by a little, but mostly it's the same measurement with all kinds of poop in it...

his chest is puffy and proud, but his belly, in between his legs, has a protruding keel bone or something, can someone feel their healthy bird for me and tell me whether that's normal?? thanks so much....
happy thanksgiving everyone, i hope you had a great day.....
good night....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you can always feel the keel bone like a knife edge running down the middle. In various states of emaciation, you can pinch it between your fingers, sometimes to the point of actually holding the bird by it in extreme cases. When you're looking at a pigeon standing in front of you, the geometry of "the chest" is a bit different relationship than with us. Our chests are quite a bit higher with respect to our heads than it is in birds. To me, it sounds from your descriptions like your talking about what's actually the neck and crop area.

So, run your finger up that knife edge from somewhere on the back end. When you run your finger up to the actual front end of that knife edge and feel it stop, that section from the back end of the bird to this point is the actual "chest" of the bird. It's only when that knife edge protrudes like the blade of a meat cleaver that you're dealing with emaciation. If the muscles on either side fill in the sides to the point where you can barely feel the knife edge, the bird's fine. 

The description of the "U", the "V" and the "T" is as though you're looking at the chest of the bird from straight on and the bottom center of the letters represent the keel line of the bird. The "U" shape represents a keel that you can barely feel because the musculature fills in both sides real well. A "V" profile is somewhat more common, especially in ferals. That also means they're lighter and can sometimes be an advantage in quick acceleration. A "T" profile illustrates a severely protruding keel with almost no muscle buildup on either side of the actual bone.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Another way of looking at the keel*

Moxie,

Compare your chest/breast area to that of a bird. We have a muscle called the pectoral muscle that attaches to the breastbone (sternum) and goes to the upper arm. Well, I am a bit sick and feeling lazy, so I will revert to Wikipedia: (saves me from having to concentrate on an accurate description. You know what the pectorals "pecs" are, so you can skip the below definition if you want.) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectoralis_major_muscle

========
Pectoralis major muscle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pectoralis major

Pectoralis major

Superficial muscles of the chest and front of the arm.
Latin	musculus pectoralis major
Gray's	subject #122 436
Origin:	Clavicular head: anterior surface of the medial half of the clavicle.
Sternocostal head: anterior surface of the sternum, the superior six costal cartilages, and the aponeurosis of the external oblique muscle.
Insertion:	humerus
Blood:	pectoral branch of the thoracoacromial trunk
Nerve:	lateral and medial pectoral nerve
Clavicular head: C5 and C6
Sternocostal head: C7, C8 and T1
Action:	Clavicular head: flexes the humerus
Sternocostal head: extends the humerus
As a whole, adducts and medially rotates the humerus. It also draws the scapula anteriorly and inferiorly.
MeSH	A02.633.567.775
Dorlands/Elsevier	m_22/12550129
The Pectoralis major is a thick, fan-shaped muscle, situated at the upper front (anterior) of the chest wall. It makes up the bulk of the chest muscles in the male and lies under the breast in the female. Although impressive looking, this muscle is not particularly strong compared to other less noticeable muscles such as those along the shoulder blade.

It arises from the anterior surface of the sternal half of the clavicle; from half the breadth of the anterior surface of the sternum, as low down as the attachment of the cartilage of the sixth or seventh rib; from the cartilages of all the true ribs, with the exception, frequently, of the first or seventh, or both, and from the aponeurosis of the Obliquus externus abdominis.

From this extensive origin the fibers converge toward their insertion; those arising from the clavicle pass obliquely downward and lateralward, and are usually separated from the rest by a slight interval; those from the lower part of the sternum, and the cartilages of the lower true ribs, run upward and lateralward, while the middle fibers pass horizontally.

They all end in a flat tendon, about 5 cm. broad, which is inserted into the crest of the greater tubercle of the humerus. 

=======

*To get to the gist of my post,* 

I once read that *if humans wanted to fly lke birds we would have to have a breast bone or keel bone sticking out four feet in front of us*, with coresponding heavily-well-developed pectorals attached to our arms wings). We would also have to reduce weight by having lighter (hollow bones) and other changes which I don't remember. Probably something to do with metabolism in the muscles.

So, compared to birds, even the strongest among us (including the Arnold Schwarzeneggars) are relatively flat-chested.

*Thanks, Pidgey,* for bringing that up about feral pigeons having a somewhat sharp keel. I thought my rescued pigeons and hand-raised pigeons had keels which were a bit too prominent; thus, thought they might be a bit on the weak side. Didn't think to mention it in this website. Maybe I was afraid I (representing my pidgies) was the 98-pound weakling who would get sand kicked in his face? Glad to find out that they are just tough little "string-beans," wiry and quick. Something to do with their nutrition more than their natural make-up, perhaps?

Larry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, his chest, right under his head and neck, are fine, it used to be that in that same area his keel bone protruded, but now in that SAME area he's fatter and puffier. now where i guess his belly would be in relation to his chest (right underneath it), is where the keel bone sticks out.
he is eating, just now i got a bowl of food with no poop and it was emptier, so im gonna waterproof him today or tomorrow, and see how all is then in regards to release.....
is the major difference in temperature inside versus letting him outside in the cold gonna be a problem????


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Once you feel OK w/the weight and weather-proofing for the feathers, then
check out one of the weather sites on the net. Releasing in the middle of some
sunny days in a row w/be best. Hopefully there's a flock nearby where you
picked the pij up at that you can bring h/her back to in the morning, let's say
say 10:00a.m.-ish. The pij should be fine especially in the company of a flock
with enough time in the day to integrate back into the flock and get it's bearings.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

The water proofing is an absolute must. Mist him every day and let him take a bath so you can see if he is water proofed. If you have an unheated garage, you could put him out there (not wet though) and let him get used to the colder temps that way, for several days.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i cant find the waterproofing stuff, so i just misted his wings now. the biggest pet store, petco, around didnt have dove seed!!!
so the next couple days are the last warm days we have, so it's perfect for release, but come wednesday/thursday it's gonna be in the 30's from then on...
so, a girl at the pet store who has re-habbed some pigeons said she had never waterproofed and they were fine....
i guess what i'm asking is, is it better to bathe him for a few days and release in the cold, or release him now with warmer weather (50's) being just misted today?? at first the water beaded up, but then it started to soak him after repeated sprays...

i dont have a garage, and live in a shady neighborhood, so couldnt put him outside anywhere, no porch, no nothin'

so, anyone have an answer for this?? risk now or risk later really....


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I forget, is this an adult pigeon or a baby?
If he is an adult, most likely he will be fine.

Reti


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