# Necrotic/scab 'plug' and other old holes...



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Well, little 'Martha', a sweet and sensitive faced adult feral who I take to be a Hen...

Got her last night, seeing as she looked like a little R & R time in here might do her good...


Initial exam showed she has several half length new Tail Feathers growing in, sugesting to me a Dog predation scenario she had scaped from however long ago it was, for Tail Feathers to grow half their length back since...

Subsequent exams now show she has some several old large punctures or eye Teeth bites I imagine, all healed to one extent or another, on her Neck, on her side and rear area. And a healed injury to her right Wings foremost front bend area...

But one, old wound on her side, seems to be a sort of hard dry grey plug maybe 3/8ths of an inch square or so, and near by it, is at least one still present 'hole' about 1/8th by a mite less, with healthy healed edges, but a hole none the less, just a smallish oval neat tidy clean 'hole' in healthy skin, like someones pierced earlobe nmight have only larger, with rounded edges to it, which appears to communicate through her abdomen area side, so it is a hole 'in' her body...or into some shadowy inside area, so far as I could see so far...

She is very sweet and gentle tempered, ( or was!) but HATES being held this way and that to BE examined, so at first I procrastinated, then have proceeded in brief forays...but she really hates it.

Now, when I reach gently into her Cage, she runs up and bites me..!


So, she qualifies in my Book as one "Miracle Bird" indeed...to have escaped some pretty bad predation situation, with a third of her Taill missing, and big punctures on her Neck and sides and likely other areas, an injured Wing joint, and to have done so well all on her own in the feral wild Worlds all that time since...and for these to have all healed as well as they did...

Anyway, I will examine her some more later, and maybe start plucking some feathers to really ( make friends with her! - and to ) get to see and deal with that 'plug', and near it, the small 'hole' I was able to see...and to get a better look at whatever else I can find or revisit.


But anyway, how long does it take for Tail Feathers to grow half way out?

I should know! But I never really payed attention to remember...three weeks or so?

Light in here is too dim for a decent image of her in her Cage with 'Stuffy', and she is WAY too much of a wiggle-worm now for me to try holding her in one hand, and try taking her picture with the Camera in the other...( even though I tried! It was not possible..)

So...

I will do some plucking, and maybe we shall visit good guy Vet No. "1" sometime soon for some look see and maybe some attentions to the plug and hole issues...

This is kind of your ballywick Pidgey!

Any ideas for me?


There is no odor from this 'plug'...and overall she is a nice smelling Pigeon, and looks to all the World to be healthy and clean fine well grown Feathers and so on.

One side is a little bit weak...same side as the plug and hole are...so while she walks and stand normally, she also tends to lean against the cage side to ease that side...( which she was doing before I got her too, on top of some old lockers against a wall, she was leaning against the wall, but you could hardly tell she was doing so, it was subtle...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Phil,

Some pigeons are both unlucky to find themselves in such a predicament and lucky to stay alive regardless!

Tuesday arrived 12 days ago with no tail feathers, they are now just about the length of my thumb nail, so I would imagine 3 weeks to reach half growth. They are usually fully grown by 6 weeks.

The "plug and hole effect" happened with Little Red Feet. her original injury was shallow but not alllowed to "heal from within", so this massive necrotic plug formed, the width of my thumb and half the length. Helen, during phone consultancy, thought it was a tracking abscess. The hole healed quickly after the plug was removed, I put little red feet on synulox, flushed the hole twice a day with sterile saline, debrided the wound and treated with antibacteral gel.

Good luck!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, one of the obvious questions is, "can she fly?" I'm guessing not since you caught her. Anyhow, you can examine difficult places like that (can't see the bird for the feathers) by making a little soapy water and wetting the feathers around the spot. That way, you can spread them much more easily. You can also use alcohol but they can get intoxicated if you use it over too large of an area simply by virtue of it soaking in.

Anyhow, I agree that "when in doubt" as to the internal extent of an injury, it's best to start an antibiotic to help fight systemically. As to the "healed hole", Pierpont ended up with one of those in her chest wound for quite some time (looked like a navel) and DD is shaping up to have something like that as well.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


She flys decently...but appearently was finding it either uncomfortable or painful, so had adopted the habit of electing her night roost on these locker tops, which are about shoulder high. Otherwise she can make the roof and so on, but was not electing to do so.

I will do the soapy-water-feather thing and get a better look...

These injuries I am guessing are about three weeks old.

So, if I were to start her on an antibiotic now, would you think I should elect Baytril? Or, the 'Doxyvet-P' which is broad spectrum gram pos and gram neg, being a doxycycline..?



Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Honestly? It can be a confusing mess. Normally I'd rather go for the stuff that Cynthia was suggesting--the Synulox (Amoxicillin + Clavulanic Acid). Doxycycline (and the Tetracycline family) helps create resistant Streps but will take care of things that Baytril won't. 

I suppose I'd base my choice on what I found in that plug section. If the feathers aren't falling off and the plug is only a scab over perfectly good granulating tissue, I'd rather let the bird manage its own immune system. If, on the other hand, you dig in and a truly necrotic plug goes pretty far into the bird, or you decide to stop digging because you're getting too deep and still haven't gotten past the necrotic plug, then you definitely ought to go with the antibiotic that has the best chance of your best guess as to what might be "in there". If it's anaerobes, then the Doxycycline if that's all you've got.

Almost seems like we need to compile a list of the various infections, their usual causes & presentations and the most likely medications and dosages for same.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Thanks...

I started her on the Doxycycline earlier...


And too, I am realizeing, that she seems to be feeling a little worse than previously, or else I am realizeing, with her under observation now, that she is not feeling well.


She is eating nicely enough and pooping nicely enough, but I noticed her poops are now staying on her vent, and these are largish, green-white ones, but a little gooey in their way...nor has she done any paying down, so this seems odd to me...


I will see about obtining some 'Synulox', but it will be a few days for it to get here if I order some now...


Thanks!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyhoooooooo...

I called "Jedds" and they do not carry 'Synulox'...nice people there though, very friendly and helpful...

Nor can I find it on the sites of the other suppliers ( who are closed now, being they are too far East for this time of day...)

So...

Maybe some idea of just who carries this product, would save me some calls in the morning...?


Otherwise, I will do a more detailed exam on her later tonight sometime, and investigate the 'plug'...


If I do not feel comfortable, I will take her to my Vet tomorrow and do it together...


Thanks!

P.S. - My 'google' searches for 'Synulox' show only UK sources for obtaining it.

Is this then a proprietary UK medicine that is not available in the United States?

Or is there a United States source?

Let me know please?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Phil, it's Amoxicillin plus Clavulanic Acid. I think it's kinda' expensive in the human-use stuff as I once got some for Grandma and asked what the round would cost if she wasn't on Medicare--$90! Anyhow, in the vet varieties it's usually called "Clavamox" (don't need to look hard to figure out how they worked that name out) and it's also called "Augmentin".

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ahhhhhhh...well hmmmm, I will see what I can round up tomorrow.


Her previously normal looking poops, have now been 'watery' with green 'jelly' and white paste...

We just spent an hour with her in the front of my shirt, with her head looking out an undone button area, as I did things at my desk here, and so I have some for sure poop-samples now to see something is odd...

Might be the effects of the Doxycycline she had this morning...

I triedt he Soapy-water thing earlier, gave her a butt-bath in it even at the same time, oweing to how her poops are funny as of this afternoon and were not clearing her feathers back there very well...

Anyway, I still could n ot get a decent look at that old injury site...but I will try again later or tomorrow.

On her side there, the downy fine dense Feathers are very thick...so, hard to see skin areas...

Long day...

Till next...

Thanks Pidgey!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...damn...

Seemed like Martha was doing well enough last night...she was bright, sociable spent an hour in my shirt front looking out at times...was eating...standing as usual when in her Cage...( I let 'Stuffy' go, he seemed completely fine, and was getting tiered of being in the Cage and so on, so, off he went back to his feral life out of doors...)

This morning, she is hardly walking or standing and has been laying down with the 'Lobster Tail' posture, and is breathing through her Beak.

So...I will guess that the 'Doxycycline' was not the right thing for her at all...


I started her on Baytril, and gave her first dose as a fairly steep one ( right into the Crop, in-water) to maybe get things started well.


I feel so bad, I did not know she was in any perils of illness, and I had merely thought she had some finishing up to do from her old injuries, with maybe some vestigual mild infection bothering her in a non-urgent way...that I wanted to treat. As well of course as seeing about that 'plug' and the small healed hole...to help her get those matters tidied-up.

So, wish us luck please...!


She is such a sweet and pretty little Pigeon...

I set her up a heating pad last night, just for the heck of it in case she might want it...since it has been cooling off into the low 80s at night, and indeed she has been favoring being on the edge of it, laying down there...so at least that is some comfort for her anyway.

Now, should I consider also, concurrently, giving her say...some Aureomycin maybe, to help get things the Baytril might not?

Or?

Problem is of course, I do not know 'what' she has.


I could m-a-y-b-e get a fecal analysis tomorrow sometime if I can get into see my Vet, for whatever that might be worth in this situation...and or bring her too of course...which I will intend to do I recon.

I hate this when I feel clueless as to what they have, and what I should be useing to treat it.


I tried my darndest to locate some 'Synulox', and or some 'Clavamox' or 'Augmentin' and no place I called ever heard of any of them.

So, nothing I can do about that for now anyway, even if I did find some it would be a couple days away.

I know my Vet is a 'Cipro' man for most of these kinds of things, but I will see what he has tomorrow when I go there...

Anyway, I sure hope Mr. Baytril starts taking her by the elbow and bringing her 'up'...and soon...


Well, when I take her out of her cage and put her back, she walks decently...and does not Beak Breathe, so maybe she is just likeing the warmth of the Heating Pad, and is wanting to lie down on it now that it is there, and is a little overwarm even and hence breathing somewhat through her Beak...? I dunno, I could shut it off and see if she goes back to standing and breathing normally, and find out...but this is not what I want to be seeing, regardless...


Fingers crossed...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there's also the spectre of what Cynthia was telling you--that necrotic plugs are sometimes hiding tracking abscesses. Those can be really bad.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey...

Have not investigated the 'plug' well enough to say...

But any intuitions or guesses or psychic flashes about what I should be doing here for her?

I am pretty worried on how she has gone down hill today...I was not expecting this.

When I have Pigeons in the past who had weeks old wounds, I usually just fed them well and waited a while to decide on what if any medications to use, or wormed them...but I never had anything like this happen.

Granted, none of them had any 'plugs', but they have had old mostly healed big punctures with floating scabes stuck in their Feathers.

So, I certainly erred in not getting her on meds sooner...but the trouble is, I did not know then nor do I know now, what kind of infection or illness she has, to have elected the appropriate medicine for it.

So, she is on the Baytril now, oral (throat) adminstration, mixed 2 CCs ( of the 10 percent liquid) to a quart of Water...with an initial .5ccs of slightly stiffer Water-mix to start her off ( ie, left a tiny bit of straight Baytril in the 1 CC syringe, then drew up .5 CC of the Baytril-Water mix and gave that to her down her throat gently...)


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, she passed away around 9:00 a.m. this morning, peacefully, with her chin on the edge of her water Bowl, laying next to it.


I thought she looked better when I hit the hay around 4:30, but I was still worried...then found she had passed when I got up, and by then she had been dead some little while.

Anyway, whatever this was, I obviously did not deal with it right...and I was not expecting her to have any threatening illness which was going to gain that fast.

So, I guess from now on, even though I have been lucky in the past I guess, any Birds with 'old' injuries showing up, I will start them on meds sight off the bat.

Trouble is, what meds? and for what coinjectural ills? What was her illness? if an old infection gaining ground, why did the Baytril not make more of a difference in a day and a half...after a day on doxycycline? What was I trying to treat here?


...sigh...


Sheeeeeesh...


Sad...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Phil, I'm sorry to hear that but it's what I expected when you said she was going downhill. For your edification, you need to cut into that necrotic plug and find out what it was hiding if you haven't already buried her.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Okay...

I will do so.

Till next,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry she died, Phil. 

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm so sorry to hear she died, Phil!

I know you did everything you thought you could but that doesn't take away the pain... 

I know you take the death of any of your visitors very hard! My thoughts are with you, along with a warm heartfelt HUG...

With love,
Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thank you Terry, Shi...


I feel real bad...she was such a heart-stealer in her way...so sensitive and interested in things and pretty.

I admired her so much for having obviously survived such a serious predation siutuation however many weeks ago, and having healed so much on her own before I got her.


I just did not appreciate the peril she was in, or what I should do about it...so I waited too long, and then the things I did do did not save her.


Is it in effect, Summer's end here...still Hot but in a different way, I have been able to 'feel' and smell Autumn in the air for a few weeks now, and it really effects me in it's way too...I just want to be dreamy and useless and lay fallow...but I can not.

...and I feel pretty burned out from these months of hot and various stress things and harried urgencies with customers and projects, with business and survival issues and what-to-do with moveing and so on and all that is comeing to a head and I feel overwhelmed with it...I am supposed to be emptying my home and work shop "now" so the Building can get rehabbed and so on...and I have noit hardly started yet! - so I know I am not at my best, and I was complasent with this Bird, and I should have been more together in my understandings and praxis.


So..golly...

Deep breath..

And on...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil .. just STOP! None of us are super human nor super pigeons in spite of Alvin's wonderful stories. It is how it is. I've been through a real rough patch here of late, so I do know how you are feeling. Just forgive yourself even though there is nothing to forgive .. you can't save them all, and if you feel you were distracted or whatever and that had an effect on the bird and its care .. well, that's life and unfortunately death sometimes .. who the heck else was there besides you, Phil? Answer .. NOBODY .. You did all you could and you cared .. that's what is important .. doing all you can and caring .. none of us are miracle workers.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terry, 


Quite 'so'...

Sigh...

I agree...sorry...


And I know of course, that thats the deal...and we find our poise in it as we may..!


And I am very glad to do what I can with all this...even with my limitations.

I sure like them, and that is the basic deal of course...and too, as we know only too well, there is us or nothing for them if they are hurt or ill or orphanned somehow.

And if I was God, then, well...it would all tend to be better organized I think...better financed, and possibly neater too..!

Plus I could have some cute Maids to help out with the Floors and so on every Tuesday.

And...

But I am me...and I have pulled a lot of 'Rabbets' out of the Hat as it is by golly...even if sometimes I cannot find the Rabbet, to 'pull'...or the Hat has no bottom that day.

Oye...

Fledgling WILD 'Puppy' one just landed on my shoulder, preened my ear...layed down warm on my shoulder for a little while, then flew off...

First gesture of friendlyness so far from that one, who previously would NOT let me pick them up or anything without HUGE protest.


And...it's time for chow I'd say, for them and me...or for me anyway, since I already fed them all earlier..!

Lol..



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, Terry is absolutely right in what she said to you. We all do the best we can and we can't save them all. It seems to me that the transition period between summer and fall is the worst time of all for getting in pigeons that are ill and, sometimes, no matter how hard you try, or what you or a vet may do, we still lose them.

Don't beat yourself up.


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