# Sick



## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

someone please help, i have had a pigeon for around 5 years, it was injured so had decided to take care of, the inury that it had was a damaged wing but the bird was still able to move it recently i had noticed that it can no longer move that wing and it has dropped right down. Then i realised under the wing just under its shoulder part a big boil with some blood and what possibly looks like scabs. The bird also make rasping breathing noises when it breathes i dint know if this is related.

My family are afraid that it may carry a disease and want me to get rid of it, what shall i do?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The boil and respiratory symptoms together sound like Paratyphoid. You need
to get the bird on Baytril immediately. I'll get you a link....

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

The link to the Supply Houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

Best to place your order by phone so you can expedite the order.
Where abouts are you located? 

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Make sure to isolate from your other birds and keep bird in warm area, in quiet & with subdued light. Make sure you feed the bird if it isn't eating.

There are very few diseases that pigeons get, that are contageous to humans, not sure about Paratyphoid....if it is Paratyphoid.

Where are you located? Do you have an avian vet?

I am moving your thread to "sick and injured" forum also.


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

i live in the UK in leicestershire, i really dont know what to do, is just a illness that will pass?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pijin said:


> i live in the UK in leicestershire, i really dont know what to do, is just a illness that will pass?


No, if Paratyphoid, it will not pass on it's own. Please do isolate the bird from
others, if housed together, and follow good hygiene practices, i.e., washing
of hands. I thought this was listed in Mercks as transmissable, maybe I'm
wrong.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> No, if Paratyphoid, it will not pass on it's own. Please do isolate the bird from
> others, if housed together, and follow good hygiene practices, i.e., washing
> of hands. I thought this was listed in Mercks as transmissable, maybe I'm
> wrong.
> ...


Okay then.....I edited my comment.


Okay, I sent an E-mail to Cynthia who lives in the UK, perhaps she can advise you to a rehab and/or med source.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If Paratyphoid, the boil should be over a wing joint. Pox can also carry
respiratory symptoms accompanying epithelial ballooning which is similar
in appearance but does not exude from the joint.

fp


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

although ive noticed this a couple of days ago my family tell me that the wing has been like that for 2 and a half weeks when the boil was quite small.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pijin said:


> although ive noticed this a couple of days ago my family tell me that the wing has been like that for 2 and a half weeks when the boil was quite small.


Can you take a picture and post it? Again, if immediately over a wing
joint, Paratyphoid would head the list. Paratyphoid wing boils have a 
rigid feel to them in comparison to the epithelial ballooning from Avian
Poxvirus that might incidentally be above a wing joint. These you can
"pick up" and move about. This is because they are in the skin as opposed
to emanating from the joint which gives a more solid, rigid feel.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you count the respiration rate (breaths per minute)? You may have to watch the tail bobbing or something like that.

Pidgey


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

sorry i cant upload a pic but i will try to describe best as i can . The boil is top part of the wing for example just under the the shoulder part. it is kind of a blue reddish colour you can see the wing not able to close due to this. there is some blood (maybe she just picked on it) and also some brown scabby type of stuff hope this helps.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pijin said:


> sorry i cant upload a pic but i will try to describe best as i can . The boil is top part of the wing for example just under the the shoulder part. it is kind of a blue reddish colour you can see the wing not able to close due to this. there is some blood (maybe she just picked on it) and also some brown scabby type of stuff hope this helps.



You are saying that the boil is at the shoulder on the top side of the wing?

Also, if you examine this bird, is this the only 'boil' that you find? Any visible
on the back or other wing? Have you looked inside the mouth and how does
that look?

fp


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

yes the boil is on top part of shoulder just underneath the wing, their are no other boils elswhere and as for the mouth it seems normal and pinky type colour, but i have noticed 1/3 of the boil seems to have this scabby hard thing on it


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I made a picture with a couple of arrows pointing to spots you might be talking about, hard to say. Anyhow, you might click on the picture below (it's a link but sometimes you don't see it due to browser settings) or the link and take a look, tell if it's one of those spots or where it is if it isn't one of them:


Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You are saying the underside of the wing, correct?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Are you able to hold onto the boil and move it around or is it pretty rigidly
staying in place?

fp


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

its number1 in the picture and its pretty hard to move


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, it's actually on the wing itself? That portion in the picture is the near to the actual wrist of the bird. Clinically, they'd tend to call it the "distal radius and ulna" when referring to the bones of that section. Anatomically, the equivalent of the wrist in us is between #1 and #2. Anyhow, does the bird seem to worry that spot with its beak much? And did you ever get a chance to count the breaths per minute?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might can get a better idea of describing the position by studying the skeletal drawings here:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is this bird exposed to either new birds coming and going in a loft situation
or are there rodents (mice or rats) coming and going from the living area?
Do you have pet reptiles?

I would go back to my original hit on this one that it sounds like Paratyphoid
thus far. Baytril or Cipro (the human equivalent) would be the medication of
choice for this illness.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of all the ones I've treated with what I believed to be Paratyphoid, most of them that have had breathing problems seemed to have had them from being anemic. That said, they breathed quietly, if rapid. Just plain making noise while breathing's bad enough to want to get some medication in the bird today if not sooner, though. Pijin's about a hundred kilometers north-by-northwest of London.

Pidgey


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

the bird is not really bothred about the boil, the actual boil itself is not underneath the wing but by looking at the diagram coracoid so the boil is not actually on the wing it is more on its body


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, when you lift the wing out of the way, the boil stays in the same place on the body, huh? Are feathers falling out around it?

Pidgey


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

and as for other pets i dont have any an am pretty sure there are not rats or mice


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, it's entirely possible for it to even be a cancer of some kind. Let's hope not but let's concentrate on the breathing for the moment. How raspy is it and how many breaths per minute? 

Also, can you compare the feeling of the body on both sides of the bird to see whether there's a lump associated with the boil?

Pidgey


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

well that area is very clean in there are no feathers as lift it no feathers fall off


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

well it is quite hard to count the breathing but she seems normal and as for the rasping it is not continious only sometimes


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you describe the activity level and the sound when she does it? I have one that got something like that once and I took her in to a vet for a nebulized treatment of Gentamicin with Saline. That means they made a fog for the bird to breath in, inside a tank like a small aquarium. The Gentamicin is an antibiotic that isn't absorbed so it kills germs right in the lining of the airways and lungs. The saline helps hydrate and soften phlegm so that it can be coughed up. The danger when they're raspy is that phlegm can dry down to the point of causing an obstruction. If it gets bad, they can choke on it. That's why I'm worried about it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If the boil is on the body as opposed to over a wing joint, this is not the Articular form of Paratyphoid. Respiratory symptoms do accompany this 
disease as described here in this link:

http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

DD did exhibit respiratory symptoms along w/CNS symptoms. The respiratory
symptoms subsided w/treatment, thought the CNS symptoms continued
for many months afterwards. As with pox virus, the illness can present 
w/more than one form. 

This bird has no exposure to any other birds or pets, though, is this correct?
If so, Pox or Paratyphoid would pretty much need to be latent in your
bird's system for it to start expressing as an illness after you having the bird
for five years w/no other exposure to another source for illness.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, it can still be articular Paratyphoid, it's just a lot more rare that it's seen at the joint of the proximal humerus with the shoulder (coracoid, furcula and scapula). About the only way the bird can get the medications that we'd want to give it is if Cynthia, John or another UK member can post some, though.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, it can still be articular Paratyphoid, it's just a lot more rare that it's seen at the joint of the proximal humerus with the shoulder (coracoid, furcula and scapula). About the only way the bird can get the medications that we'd want to give it is if Cynthia, John or another UK member can post some, though.
> 
> Pidgey


The way they described it, being "on the body", it didn't sound as though
over a joint. Regardless, there are plenty of other ways for Paratyphoid to
present than the articular expression of the disease. I don't know how 
close they are to the pigeon friendly clinic that has been used by members.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, it's pretty hard to tell from descriptions. We still don't know where it's at, exactly. I'm not even sure that I've ever heard anyone on here describe a Paratyphoid boil in that region anyway. I just vaguely remember a reference out of THE PIGEON and that might even be incorrect.

Anyhow, I also emailed John so hopefully one of them (Cynthia or John) will get on before it gets too late over there. Pijin's location is about halfway between London and where Nooti lives. This particular bird has been on Pigeon-Talk before about two years ago:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=83808#post83808

...although there weren't any health concerns at the time.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yup, well to be the Articular form, it needs to be over a joint, so if on the
body it's not a candidate. Doesn't mean that it's not Paratyphoid, and it
doesn't mean that a true 'joint boil' couldn't develop in the near future.

Here are some other options as well:

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactI.htm

Though, you would want to call first and ask if they treat pigeons. Are
you able to drive?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Uhh... the shoulder is a joint, isn't it?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Uhh... the shoulder is a joint, isn't it?
> 
> Pidgey


Body.....or shoulder? Bit of a difference that I'm still not clear on
and could be semantics.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the top of the humerus is usually in the middle of so much muscle that we don't feel it or even think of it as a joint very much. It certainly doesn't feel like it has a lot of movement even on a perfectly functional wing when you manually rotate it. I just can't rule out that the location is wrong for a boil of that joint based on what pijin has said so far. I'd far rather it was a boil there than cancer, that's for sure. And, sure, it could even be something else like a dermatitis if the bird's been picking at it due to an underlying pain or discomfort (like plain old arthritis).

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The description really doesn't allow in itself to rule it out, it is unclear. Just
mentioning that Articular Paratyphoid by definition occurs as a result of the
pathogen concentrating in the joint itself causing the inflamation and subsequent boil. Again, Paratyphoid, like other diseases of multiple form,
can express in more than one type of the specific pathogen. 

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Is it in an area that could be described as the arm pit? Could it be an abcess?

I know that his original injury was a long time ago, but is this boil under the wing that was originally injured?

Can you get it to a vet? The problem is that we can't assume it is paratyphoid and send you antibiotics to treat that because there is an infection called Streptococcus Bovis which mimics a lot of the symptoms of Paratyphoid but the antibiotics used for paratyphoid are the least effective against streptococcus bovis.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've been worrying about a strep but have been trying to nail down a reason to suspect it. Cynthia, do you get any respiratory distress that causes rales with that?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Is it in an area that could be described as the arm pit? Could it be an abcess?
> 
> I know that his original injury was a long time ago, but is this boil under the wing that was originally injured?
> 
> ...


Maybe not an abcess in the true meaning of the term, but for our purposes in
trying to understand what is happening for the bird, a good way to grapple
w/descriptions. This is why I felt the bird would do well to be seen by someone in the area, I still don't know if this member has access to transportation. It would be really helpful in the absence of pictures, to 
have the bird looked at by someone familiar w/pigeons and medical treatment
for them. Baytril is not the medication of choice for streptococcus bovis, 
rather ampicillin specifically and penicillins in general are recomended for this disease.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia, do you get any respiratory distress that causes rales with that?


To be honest I don't think it is either of those conditions, the scabby description and location reminds me of a tracking abscess that Little Red Feet had, but she didn't have any breathing difficulties. However, 
from this site: http://www.racingpigeon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=73

_"In one published study, 20 cases of infection caused by Streptococcus bovis were found among 293 submissions of pigeons (mostly racing pigeons) to one laboratory in Europe. In 17 birds, the major finding was swelling and abscess-like changes in the liver (strictly speaking, birds don't produce pus, so it is not correct to call these changes "abscesses"). Swelling and abscess-like changes were also found in the kidneys of 14 birds, swelling of the spleen of 11 birds, enteritis (inflammation of the intestines) in three birds, *congestion of the lungs and pneumonia in two birds*, degeneration of breast muscles in one bird, white spots in the heart of one bird, *air sac infection in one bird,* and joint infection in one bird. "_

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pox, when displayed w/epithelial ballooning, can have scabby and hard portions to the 'boil', and pox virus can impact the respiratory system as well. It would be just so helpful to have someone knowledgable w/pigeons evaluate this bird in person. Don't suppose you could borrow a camera from a friend or have them take and post the pictures?

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> It would be just so helpful to have someone knowledgable w/pigeons evaluate this bird in person


I will e-mail roy-me-boy. He lives in a town something like 11 miles away . Safewings, the rescue place that we raised money for is 27 miles away, but I think we would need to get the pigeon to them. Karen and Janet (amyable) are about 40 miles away. I am pretty sure that Karen has a camera, but I haven't heard from her lately and don't know what commitments she has during the day.

Cynthia


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## roy-me-boy (Dec 28, 2006)

Hi Cynthia.I just read the posts.I will pick the bird up and get it to a vet to have a look at.What is the address? I have to go back to work now fo a couple of hours,but will get back to the puter at 4pm.


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## pijin (Sep 2, 2005)

sorry all i have not been able to reply as i am at work i have read all the responses and thank you very much everyone for showing concern. i will try to contact soon .PS. I also live in L'boro


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Glad to hear your pij will be seen by a vet, thanks for your assist, Roy.

fp


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## roy-me-boy (Dec 28, 2006)

pijin said:


> sorry all i have not been able to reply as i am at work i have read all the responses and thank you very much everyone for showing concern. i will try to contact soon .PS. I also live in L'boro


If you need any help,pm me and i`ll come round if need be.


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