# Pigeon makes noise during inhalation



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi,
Again, we are beginners at this.

We have a homer who was making a rasping sound upon inhaling and seemed to be looking upward at the same time. And her tail moved up/down at the same time. She acted distressed.
We opened her beak and saw no blockage. We isolated her and gave her some terramycin, upon advise from other pigeon owner. 
She seemed fine for about 3 days, but over the past three days we again hear the rasping noise. But she does not look stressed and there is no physical sign that we first observed. Just this raspy noise as she inhales. The noise is not consistent. We may pass her cage several times a day and not hear it, then the next time, we hear it.

There have never been any other visible signs that this bird is or was sick, except that since she's been caged, her tail feathers have changed or been damaged walking around on the wire. They now have a "lacey" appearance, as if the individual hairs are separating.

I've been using the web a lot, and some pigeon supply sites -- but for a beginner it is just overwhelming. Trying to learn the illnesses, the preventatives, the supplements --- I know we will learn them all in time, but it is overwhelming at this point.

Also, I've noticed that the dosage info is often in huge amounts - like mix this pack with 100 gallons of water, not really, but way too large scale for us to do a conversion.

Can anyone suggest what might be wrong with this bird AND a website that might be more "beginner" friendly regarding health of pigeons. Also, which might be the best book to keep on hand for pigeon health issues so we'll have a faster reference guide. We have satellite internet service which is way better than dial-up, but it's not nearly as fast as DSL or cable, so a good book would be very helpful.

Thanks so much for your patience and assistance.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

you have just found the most ''beginner'' friendly site you could possibly find. Welcome aboard. about the rasping breathing, have you treated for air sac mites? you can get ivermectin injectible and give the bird 3 drops in the mouth for the mites.


----------



## lizz (May 3, 2008)

hey chainsaw, i don't know how feasible it would be, but for this one bird, i would suggest a vet visit. to me, it sort of sounds like she aspirated a seed, but i am totally new to pigeons. not so much to parrots, though, and i lost a conure within in week to a mystery breathing problem, even though i ended up taking him to an avian hospital. if i had the chance to do it again, i would have run him to an avian vet pronto, at the very first HINT of breathing issues/noises. 

anything breathing - related makes me want to scream in terror, so i wouldn't try to vet her on my own. i know if you have a loft full of birds it might not be so easy to run any one bird off to the vet, but if it's something contagious, you'd want to diagnose what it IS before trying to treat it on your own, and possibly losing birds in the interim.

you know, it could be something fungal, and you're treating for baceria, or vice versa.....just too many variables.

sorry i couldn't be of more help, but you definitely found the right forum to come to! these folks are pigeon geniuses!!!


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

rainbows said:


> you have just found the most ''beginner'' friendly site you could possibly find. Welcome aboard. about the rasping breathing, have you treated for air sac mites? you can get ivermectin injectible and give the bird 3 drops in the mouth for the mites.


You can treat with ivermectin although we don't know for sure that your bird has air sac mites.Certainly, if you haven't wormed yet, the ivermectin will treat round worms and this time of year is a good time to treat all your birds for worms. Ivermectin does come in different strengths and so you need to keep that in mind. When you do get some, we can help you with the correct dosage for the strength.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

Charis said:


> You can treat with ivermectin although we don't know for sure that your bird has air sac mites.Certainly, if you haven't wormed yet, the ivermectin will treat round worms and this time of year is a good time to treat all your birds for worms. Ivermectin does come in different strengths and so you need to keep that in mind. When you do get some, we can help you with the correct dosage for the strength.


thank you for the correction.


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

*Air Sac Mites, Worm?*

Ok, here is what we know and what we have.

Just received Global Multi-Mix. Catalog says it's worm preventative. Have not started any birds on it yet.

Due to arrive around next Wednesday is Veta Farm Worm Out Gel. Fellow fancier recommended it because it treats for FIVE different worms. 

We do not have any ivermectrin. Husband is on the phone calling feed stores, etc to see if we can purchase some and not have to wait for mail order.

The only pro-active thing that we have done to date is use Insectrin Dust in loft and on birds and disinfected loft with Nolvasan.

Husband just said that local Agway sells 250 ml ivermectin.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

We cannot diagnose, but the classic symptoms for respiratory infections are "rasping and gurgling while breathing, mucous in throat, and open beak and/or heavy breathing, and/or discharge from eyes."

You don't want to fool around with it if it is this, Aureomycen in conjunction with Tylan would be one choice for medication for this. Diagnosis by an avian vet would be best.


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

*Air Sac Mites*

Thanks.

I forgot. We do have Terramycin soluble powder. Says for poultry treatment of air sac mites.

Can we give this to all of them? The dosing instructions are confusing.

Says Add the following amount to 2 gallons of stock solution when proportioner is set to meter at the rate of 1 ounce per gallon.

For chickens the is dosage 200-400 mg/gal 
Then at the end of the chart, again for chickens it says "packs/2 gallons stock solution is 5-10".

I am confused.

Might this work for our bird(s)?


----------



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm confused by those instructions but yes, Terramycin would be okay for your pigeons. Hopefully someone else can sort it out.

Is your pigeon the only one making rasping noises? And there's no nasal discharge or other symptoms? The reason I ask is that we have a Nun hen we bought at a show four years ago that initially seemed healthy but then I noticed she made subtle rasping noises when she breathed. Our vet diagnosed her with Aspergillosis, a fungal infection. It took four months of treatment with a strong anti-fungal drug to cure her, but she did make a complete recovery.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Chainsaw, the Avermectin family, i.e., Ivermectin and Moxidectin (Scatt) will
treat for air sac mites and the round worm family. I believe the dose for Ivomec
injectable is 2 drops down the throat....when given orally. The Avermectin
family seems to be the choice medication for air sac mites, though we don't know for certain that your birds have this condition. Personally, I would treat
all w/the worming med that you have coming. 

Another possibility for lung symptoms besides worms &/or mites, or a localized bacterial infection (which could also be the result of parasitical tissue damage)
is canker or Trichomonas which is treatable w/the Nitroimidazole family of 
medications:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=219593&postcount=1

If you haven't yet isolated the bird from the rest, you should do so. Treat
for the worms. As far as Tetracycline treating for air sac mites, I've never
heard of this before, though it is an excellent medication for respiratory
infections if that is what the bird has, as are the antibiotics that Trees Gray
mentioned. It is odd that your bird was on Tetracycline for several days and
showed some improvement only to display symptoms again. It would be a good idea for you to hook up with a vet in your area that you can trust and
work w/in times of need instead of inundating the bird w/possible cures. Though both parasitical treatments for worms and canker are usually considered part of an overall regimine while using supportive natural
care in between such as ACV and garlic.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I'm confused by those instructions but yes, Terramycin would be okay for your pigeons. Hopefully someone else can sort it out.
> 
> Is your pigeon the only one making rasping noises? And there's no nasal discharge or other symptoms? The reason I ask is that we have a Nun hen we bought at a show four years ago that initially seemed healthy but then I noticed she made subtle rasping noises when she breathed. Our vet diagnosed her with Aspergillosis, a fungal infection. It took four months of treatment with a strong anti-fungal drug to cure her, but she did make a complete recovery.


Yes, good point, that we don't know what is the root cause and in an instance of a fungal infection, antibiotics would only exaserbate the condition.

fp


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

*Respiratory problem*

We've been trying to follow the posts as well as looking up gram/ounce conversions, etc.

Yes, we did isolate the bird, over a week ago. We are feeling strongly that the dose of terramycin that we gave was too little and we now know that it was not for long enough.

In the meantime, today we heard another bird with the rasping noise.

Assuming this is NOT a fungal infection (if it is, can we will try this without risk if we are wrong) we are considering:

Two sick birds: ivermectin immediately and terramycin for 7-14 days. 

I'm not trying to be a hard-head here, but we are on limited budget and really want to avoid a vet if at all possible. Husband is on his way to pick up the ivermectin right now.

Does anyone think this is a good plan?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

chainsaw said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I forgot. We do have Terramycin soluble powder. Says for poultry treatment of air sac mites.
> 
> ...


Which exact Terramycin soluble powder is it?

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Must be this one:

http://www.drugs.com/vet/terramycin-soluble-powder.html

According to that page:

"this Packet Contains 10 Grams Of Oxytetracycline Hcl"

And further down:

"Net Weight: 6.4 Oz (181.4 G)"

Therefore, it's 5.5% actual medicine in the powder. So, we just need to work out how to measure it out for you to make up some for your birds. Working on it.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Working from a formulary in CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE, there's an entry for dosing by drinking that goes like this: 0.133-0.444 g/L. Turns out that the average there is about a quarter of a gram of actual medicine per liter (call it a quart) of water.

Now, Terramycin and a few other of those powders are pretty funny stuff--when they're exposed to air (you open the package), they'll start sucking humidity out of the air and eventually turn into sludge. As such, you'll need to put the leftovers in a pretty tight package in order to save them from that. Anyhow, I just weighed a level teaspoon of Doxycycline powder it was 3.5 grams. Using that as a guide, it'd take about 1.5 level teaspoons to a quart of water for your birds.

Dosing them that way, they have to drink it to get any good out of it. That puts the burden on you to make sure that they're drinking and get some down them anyway if they're not.

Pidgey


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

*Terramycin dosing*

Hi Pidgey,

I understand what you are saying about only 5.5% of the content being the actual drug.

So, that would be 6 teaspoons powder per per gallon of water.

And we would need to give it 7-14 days.

Am I correct?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, on the "per gallon" number based on my calcs (could be wrong, you know).

The amount of days to extend the treatment usually depends on what it is, which we don't know in your case. Therefore, you usually extend treatment beyond the cessation of symptoms by several days. I'd probably just follow the number of days as shown for chickens on the package.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I have no clue how you guys come up with the calculations, but I'll say this.........I've NEVER purchased anything for any pigeons diseases that called for 6 teaspoons in a gallon of water. 
I almost choked when I read that. 

Don't even know if these are the same stuff..........but, that sounds like A LOT to me...........
http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=6&catalogno=1020-013

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/597.html


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, drug formulations can be rough to figure dosing sometimes. This from the Aureomycin Concentrate from that page:

"This product is about 2 1/2 times stronger than the aureomycin soluble powder. A more economical way to buy the product. 2 Teaspoons/Gallon for treatment. 1. TeaspooW Gallon [sic] for preventive for 5-10 days."

That alone gets you in the neighborhood.

Pidgey


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

*Terramcyin dosing*

Whew - this is somewhat overwhelming.

While I'm certainly in no position to challenge anything anyone on in this group has to say, I am no a little apprehensive.

While worrying about this it just occurred to me that I might have a resource I had forgotten. I have a cousin who owns an animal park in another state. She's had bears, an elephant, pythons, zebras, monkeys, emus, etc and lots of birds. I think she is also a vet assistant (or whatever the degree for that job is). I am positive that they vet a lot of their animals. She should be very familiar with the dosing idiocyncracies. 

I will try to contact her. And I will let you know if she was able to assist.

In the meantime, can I go ahead and start with the ivermectin?

The ivermectin just arrived. It is actually brand Noromectin, (says ivermectin under the name). Says “injection for cattle and swine”. 1% sterile solution 50 ml

We can give this through the mouth, right? We have a syringe with measurements of it that we can use.

How much per bird? Given only once each?

We have old birds and some approx 7 weeks old.

We just put most of the old birds in a separate loft yesterday, except two pair that are sitting on eggs.

Geeze ----- and I thought having a bird loft was going to be easy. I have read info from many, many websites, and old book by Levi on raising squab, talked to a few bird fanciers ---- all resulted in much knowledge. BUT I really need one book that is complete. I tend to think/learn in a more organized fashion than the way that I am receiving my input thus far J


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

chainsaw said:


> Whew - this is somewhat overwhelming.
> 
> While I'm certainly in no position to challenge anything anyone on in this group has to say, I am no a little apprehensive.
> 
> ...


Don't feel bad. We ALL go through this..........some of us (me) still do.......LOL
The Ivermectin can be given in drops. My bottle came with an eye dropper. I give my older/adult birds 3 drops and the babies, 1 month old or older up to about 4 months old, 2 drops. Now, if I have an adult bird that is on the really small side, and I do have a couple, I only give them 2 drops too. 
I also give it to them on an empty crop.


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

But do I have to worry about dosing from this particular source. It is bottled for cattle and swine and is in a bottle that you would use with a needle.
So the dosing is for cattle and swine -- 1 ml per 110 bl wt for cattle and 1 ml per 75 lb wt for swine.

And Lovebirds, I don't feel bad about asking questions. I feel bad that Pidgey went to the trouble to look this up for me and if I don't go with his recommendation I'm afraid that it will appear that I am challenging his knowledge and ignoring his helpfulness.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, something up the thread confused me a little:

"I forgot. We do have Terramycin soluble powder. Says for poultry treatment of air sac mites."

From the webpage on the drug:

"Chronic respiratory disease (CRD) and air sac infection caused by Mycoplasma gallisepticum and Escherichia coli"

Now, you do know that you generally use completely different drugs for infections versus multi-celled parasites? That said, you'd use the Terramycin for an infection of some sort and the Ivermectin for actual air sac mites. In the absence of any actual testing to see what it is that you've got, you're shooting blind. I suppose in this case, you can actually do both at the same time, though.

Pidgey


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

*ivermectin*

I was thinking we would do both because the ivermectin is also a wormer, correct?

We could do the ivermectin on all birds. And since we have a second bird with a respiratory ailment now, I assumed we'd give the Terramycin to all also.

But now I'm hung up on the dosage of the ivermectrin since the dosing on the package is for cattle and swine.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

chainsaw said:


> But do I have to worry about dosing from this particular source. It is bottled for cattle and swine and is in a bottle that you would use with a needle.
> So the dosing is for cattle and swine -- 1 ml per 110 bl wt for cattle and 1 ml per 75 lb wt for swine.
> 
> And Lovebirds, I don't feel bad about asking questions. I feel bad that Pidgey went to the trouble to look this up for me and if I don't go with his recommendation I'm afraid that it will appear that I am challenging his knowledge and ignoring his helpfulness.


This is what you got? 

http://www.atozvetsupply.com/PhotoDetails.asp?ShowDESC=N&ProductCode=450-AGLN

This is what I use. 

http://www.allivet.com/IVOMEC-p/25010.htm

This IS the same product Pidgey???


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> This IS the same product Pidgey???


Appears to be. 1% is 1%.

Pidgey


----------



## chainsaw (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, 2 drops for the young ones and 3 drops for the older ones.

Now we can proceed with this med, thanks to all of you.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

chainsaw said:


> Ok, 2 drops for the young ones and 3 drops for the older ones.
> 
> Now we can proceed with this med, thanks to all of you.


YIPPEE!!!


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

chainsaw said:


> Ok, 2 drops for the young ones and 3 drops for the older ones.
> 
> Now we can proceed with this med, thanks to all of you.


I have Ivomec injectable for cattle and swine and purchased it from Jedd's.
The dosing instructions on the label from Jedd's says 2 drops down the throat
for one day. Repeat treatment in 21 days.

If you use a 1cc syringe for the oral dose (one w/out needle) you can figure the dose at 0.1 for the 2 drops. I usually go just one line above that to ensure a whole second drop.

I also rotate the meds that I know they will need on-going treatment with
in order to help discourage resistancy.

fp


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> I have Ivomec injectable for cattle and swine and purchased it from Jedd's.
> The dosing instructions on the label from Jedd's says 2 drops down the throat
> for one day. Repeat treatment in 21 days.
> 
> ...


And if you go to Foy's it says 2 -3 drops down throat, repeat in 21 days....and if you go to Globals, it says 3 drops down the throat 3 times a year. 
If you go to the three main web sites and look up the stuff we use routinely, you'll see a different dose on each web site. It's not a wonder people get confused. 
I have PERSONALLY put 3 drops down my birds throat numerous times. Haven't killed one yet.


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

rainbows said:


> you have just found the most ''beginner'' friendly site you could possibly find. Welcome aboard. about the rasping breathing, have you treated for air sac mites? you can get ivermectin injectible and give the bird 3 drops in the mouth for the mites.


thanks Lovebirds & Pidgey. It's nice to know I was right the first post. next time I will give more details.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Two drops has been very effective so I have stayed w/that, w/out feeling a need to go to a higher level. The instructions do also say that dosage is only
hearsay for pigeons.

fp


----------

