# I think i've found out why the babys keep dying!!



## -Heather- (Feb 25, 2006)

Hi
I think i found out why the babys keep dying 
I've found out today went i cleaned out my pigeons shed (that means everything out and clean up and eberything back in) wel wen i was tidying everything up i found that something pretty bigger than a mouse had bit a hole in my window ledge wood shelf and then i found RAT DROPPINGS 
but they have not come from my garden they have cmae from my next door neighbour there wernt no rats before they moved in and left there garden in a right mess they have got rubbish and everything else you can think of everywhere and i can even see where they are coming through under the fence............so there fore i have put some rat poisen down under the fence o there side not ours and put somein 2 bags and stuck in the hole so if the rats want to get in they will have to eat the poisen first and ive bin extremly careful where the rat poisen is 
and my dads home and doing great!!! 
Well apart from the poisen were going to report them to the eviroment and hopefully get rid of them i was wondering why i wernt seeing many mice just lately
Any way do any of u think this could be the reason my babys keep dying and i found another baby dead and bleeding on the floor some time ago
Heather x x x x


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

-Heather- said:


> I think i found out why the babys keep dying
> so there fore i have put some rat poisen down under the fence o there side not ours and put somein 2 bags and stuck in the hole so if the rats want to get in they will have to eat the poisen first and ive bin extremly careful where the rat poisen is
> and my dads home and doing great!!!
> Well apart from the poisen were going to report them to the eviroment and hopefully get rid of them i was wondering why i wernt seeing many mice just lately
> ...



Hi Heather, 

This could very well be the reason your babies are dying. One, because the rats are eating the seed and possibly contaminating it with their droppings. Thus, passing on various things to the pigeons that eat the grain. Two, they could be trying to get your chicks and the parents are trying to protect their babies, causing a scuffle in the nest resulting in the babies falling.

I wouldn't advise putting down the poison though because no matter how careful you are, it could result in other deaths....a chain reaction. A rat dies, a cat or buzzard eats the rat and then it's poisoned. A better approach would be to ensure your loft/shed is mice/rat proof. Seal up all holes and make sure that your screening is strong and preferably 1/4" so that mice can't get in either. Mice are just as bad as rats are for the pigeons.

I'm happy to hear you dad is doing well


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

hi Heather,

Glad to hear your dad is doing well.

Sorry to hear about the rat problem. Brad is right about closing down and predator proofing the shed. That is the first and foremost thing that should be done.

1. You need to predator proof the shed, and do not leave any more birds in the shed until it is fixed, or have any babies at this time. 

2. Make sure not to leave any pigeon seed out anywhere in the shed, or even outdoor surroundings as that is attracting the rats. Wash and disinfect all your feeders and waterers as well as entire coop. Keep your seed supply in a metal container with a tight lid, if you can't keep it indoors. Rats and mice can eat thru plastic.

3. I would vaccinate all the birds for Paratyphoid/Salmonellas if you haven't done so. Any birds that act sick and showing any symptoms should be isolated, taken to vet for diagnosis and treated.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Heather,

I think you should follow all the advice so far, if you value your pets. 

I think, too, you need to look at the accomodation and decide whether the garden shed is actually the best idea for the pigeons at all. We don't know the setup, but assuming the pigeons spend most of the time inside....

Is there plenty of light for them during the day? How about ventilation - like, are the windows glazed, or just covered over with wire mesh? Is there a skylight? Is there an area attached to the shed anywhere so they get fresh air and natural daylight?

As for rat-proofing... 

Unless you have windows which open outward, I'd advise strong mesh over the outside of windows extending beyond just the window frame, so rats cannot get any edges to gnaw on. If that isn't possible, then maybe reinforce the window edges with strips of sheet metal.

Check the floor is secure, especially where the floor meets the walls.rats can start to chew through where there is even the smallest gap which will ghive them somewhere to get their teeth into the wood. Bottoms of walls is a favored place!

Cover the entire floor with mesh, and extend it a good couple of feet up the walls too. 

Also check where the walls meet the ceiling - many sheds these days have a ventilation gap. If so, seal the gap with mesh. 

Do not use chicken wire, as it won't stop a determined rat - you can cut that stuff with an old pair of scissors! Use heavy aviary wire.

John


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## -Heather- (Feb 25, 2006)

*Hi John*

Hi John
the shed has one big window at the side and 1 little onw at the back which needs replacing as it is the one the rats are getting through the wood
there is an air vent aswel and in the summer when its nice i take the plastic covering off and keep the meshing on
theres plenty of sunlight and fresh air and they go out most the time


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Heather, you can buy a big sheet of aviary wire from B&Q for about £4. You could fasten that on the inside of your shed over the window opening as a temporary measure.

Make sure that you never leave food down in the loft nor spill any around the loft - I made the mistake of throwing uneaten food out for the wild birds until a fancier friend told me I was attracting rats!! 

'Poo


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## -Heather- (Feb 25, 2006)

*Hi*

BUT WHAT AM I GOING TO ABOUT LEAVING THE FOOD OUT FOR THE PIGOENS THEY NEED FOOD AND WATER
THIS IS ALL THANKS TO THEM STUPID NEIGHBOURS OF MINE AND THE DOG HOLE
SORRY GUYS BUT THERE WAS NO RATS TILL THEY MOVED IN AND IM GETTING SO ANGRY
THAT I HAVE TO EVEN TAKE MY PIGOENS FOOD DISHES AWAY    :
HEATHER X


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Heather - please contact Environmental health. If you put rat poison down without consulation with qualified personel you could be laying yourself open to prosecution. It is actually illegal to lay poison in a manner which could be harmful to any other species. Please do seek advice first, I would hate for you to get into trouble because of these mindless morons you have as neighbours.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Rats also will eat Baby birds as they do eat meat.


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## -Heather- (Feb 25, 2006)

*hi nature*

hi nature girl
i no thy eat meat and may eat baby pigoens that what im so worried about will they get an ault one tho


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

If the bird is slow at getting away yes they will. You are going to have to keep a very close eye on the rats. I would see about finding some of the rat poison that they eat and take the food awway and die somewhere. The only thing you will really have to watch is the pijjys getting into the poison. I would hide it real good and see what happens.


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

naturegirl said:


> Rats also will eat Baby birds as they do eat meat.


Hi There all,

*Rats are not carnivores *by nature and they do not eat meat or eggs unless starving. A rats staple diet is the same thing you would feed to pigeons and other birds for the most part. Nuts, grains and seeds and fallen fruit. 

Heather, do not lay out poison for rats! Repeat, *Do not lay out poison for Rats.* The same poison that is designed for rats is made up of ingredients such as nuts, grains and seeds that birds favour too. So if you want to kill wild birds, even your own pigeons then keep on that path. Otherwise reconsider. Please go out *now* and remove the poison bait!

I have had a lot of personal experience with rats and really want to discourage you from blaming them for your problems. Rats love wild bird seed found at bird feeders. They go crazy for apples especially and peanuts will make then almost insanely delerious with delight. Put out catfood, dogfood or any other meat leftovers though and they could care less unless they are starved. Then and only then will they resort to meat eating. So look again at the problem. If rats or mice have broken into to your aviary it is only to get access to the same food that your pigeons eat, *not to eat your birds *or their eggs. OK,

Cameron


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

naturegirl said:


> I would see about finding some of the rat poison that they eat and take the food awway and die somewhere. The only thing you will really have to watch is the pijjys getting into the poison. I would hide it real good and see what happens.


Please read what has been posted! Just putting down poison can get people into serious trouble if other wildlife or someone's domestic pet should die from eating it.

Also, there are humane traps for catching rats, after which they can be removed to a suitable place like woodland.

John


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Heather,
Please remove the poison as soon as possible. No creature deserves to be killed just because they are trying to survive. Rats need food, just as we do. Poison causes a horrible & painful death. 
Begin to secure your loft today. Until the work is completed, purchase a few Hav-A-Hart traps (as John mentioned) to capture the rats. Please don't kill them. Take them a distance away from your place & release them.
Please have some compassion & get rid of the poison immediately.

Phyll


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Yes. I thought a cat was getting my birds at night some would have their wings eaten off it was awful. Then I saw a BIG Roof Rat running across the top of the garage next to the loft and I knew it was them. They also carry Salmonella and various other diseases. They will pick your strip your birds feathers at night to use for nests too. Awful, keep poison out. Glad to hear your fathers doing good.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron and all, 

Wild/feral rats (black, brown, norway & roof) can and do eat meat, eggs and nestlings of birds. They are omnivores in the wild and as it's been mentioned here already, they can be a serious problem to pigeons, their eggs and chicks.

Here are a few links about rats, their behaviour and diet:

http://www.the-piedpiper.co.uk/th1a.htm
http://library.thinkquest.org/3882/rats.html
http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html

If still in doubt, just ask Terry Whatley about some pigeon chicks she had that had their feet and legs chewed off by them


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Heather, the others here have posted very good advice to help you sort the rat/mouse problem. I did an environmental health training course of sorts a few years ago and have also kept many pet rats in the past.

Rats are very inquisitive and intelligent by nature. Once they find a reliable food source and 'accomodation' they will set up home to produce their young in exponential numbers. They are indeed omniverous and will feed on a wide range of food types. They especially show a preference for cereals, grains etc. but are also known to feed off meat, fish and other products. In urban environments, the food that they eat will reflect that which is available to them.

Please inform the environmental health department to deal with your neighbours garbage/unkempt garden problem and rodent proof your shed as soon as possible (taking your pigeons, especially any babies, to a safe refuge) while the work is done. 

Take everything out of your shed, and using a torch light inspect all areas, in particular, look for any harbourages, nesting areas and feeding areas. It is unlikely that you will see a live rodent, but there are other things to look out for which include:

*1)* *Droppings*; this will help in identification of the species, while the amount and texture of droppings indicate the length of time infestation has been present.

*2)* *Foot marks and tracks*; rodents tend to use the same routes to and from a location that can lead to the development of a distinct track or runway.

*3)* *Smear marks *(especially at ground level along walls,doors etc.) This is because rodents have a greasy deposit in their hair, and as they tend to use the same routes to and from a location, dark smears can develop on areas or objects against which they pass.

*4)* *Urine pillars*; As rodents continually urinate when active, over time the urine may combine with grease, hairs, dust and other debris to form small mounds called 'urine pillars'. These pillars are usually indicative of a long standing infestation.

*5)* *Nests, holes and other harbourages*; a brown rat colony may be found in burrows outside, which are often found on sloping ground. Holes will be present at the burrow entrance with tracks leading away. Brown rats may also be found nesting indoors, as do black rats (usually high up in a building such as amongst roof supports). House mice will usually nest indoors in an isolated area.

*6)* *Odour*; There may be a characteristic odour associated with rodent infestations (particularly mice).

*7)* *Damage to property and materials*; a clear sign of infestation will be damage to food, its packaging, and property caused by feeding and gnawing activity.

*8)* *Other factors*; The general cleanliness of a location is of utmost importance. The presence of debris such as packaging may provide harbourages and nesting materials. Food spillages will provide a good food source. Structural features may also influence infestation such as cracks and crevices in walls, floors and doors. The presence of vegetation around a building may also provide cover for approaching rodents.

I should also point out that you should use protective clothing such as gloves, overalls etc. when removing poision baiting.

Lindi


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Lindi, that is a terrific post, full of good information. I would also suggest when you are cleaning up any mouse/rat droppings to wear a mask as well as gloves.

Maggie


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Thank you Maggie, yes absolutely, protective clothing is a must when carrying out an inspection. I hope this information will not just help Heather, but anyone else who suspects rodents are getting to their birds. Even if there is not a problem, regular inspection should be carried out as a matter of routine maintenance.

Lindi


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*my neighbor*

has put poison out in the past, for rats. The reason for doing so was the neighbors called the police regarding too many fruit rats in his yard. Well guess where they came to die? my yard , my driveway. It is not a pretty site to witness a animal of (any kind) that has been poisoned. It is a slow, painful death. Please do not put any poison out anywhere. 

Andi


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks for those links Brad. A hungry animal will eat anything necessary to maintain life. People have been know to eat each other too when starved, to eat insects, grass, even shoe leather. Rats may be omnivores but they are not carnivores by nature or as a first choice. I was overrun with Norway rats at one point because of my bird feeder. They had no interest in meat whatsoever until nothing else was available and after I have thoroughly cleaned the area up. Rats of course are much maligned, moreso even than pigeons who are at times called rats with wings by ignorant folk. There is a lot of bad information written about them by those with no first hand observations.

I am speaking from personal experience.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Crows are omnivores, so are raccoons, and bears. Animals that do/have eaten meat, won't pass up on an opportunity to acquire it. There are certain tribes of chimpanzees in Africa that kill other monkies and the young of their own kind...whereas other tribes are strictly vegetarians. Same applies to killer whales, some eat dolphins, seals and other meat, whereas others only eat fish, krill etc. Did you know that squirrels eat meat as well? They eagerly search out the nests of song birds and consume their eggs and chicks too, in the summer, when they have lots of available food. There is some kind of requirement obviously for them to get animal protein in their diets. 

What I'm saying is that these people with rat problems, shouldn't risk it. I'd rather give them some factual information and hopefully prevent a problem than tell them that, no, rats eat seeds and fruit, than they have their eggs and chicks eaten and wonder why.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Cameron,

As Brad posted, I can ASSURE you that rats will go after pigeons if they can get to them, and in my case, there is plenty of seed and grain around for them to eat, thus there was no shortage of the preferred food of rats .. they still chose to eat off the legs and feet of a couple of young pigeons. 

I don't dislike rats as in hate something for being what it is .. do I want them here .. no, I don't .. will I kill them .. no, not intentionally, but I truly don't want them here, and it's difficult to keep them away with a ready food supply from spilled bird seed and the birds themselves. When I say "intentionally", my Maggie dog is an extreme ratter .. she gets them in the middle of the night .. broken backs/necks on the rats in all cases .. a quick and hopefully painless death .. do I like it .. no .. but there is not a lot I can do to stop Maggie in the middle of the night .. it's her job to guard the yard and the birds .. and she does.

Terry


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Terry,

Of course I can understand if you have had personal experience with rats and they have killed or injured your pigeons. I will have to admit too that there are many differing kinds of rats and not all are alike in there eating habits. Perhaps some develop a taste for meat. 

My experience has been that meat is very low on their list of desires though. With my previous bird / squirrel feeder there was always spillage on the ground. It really never occurred to me in those days that I was attracting rats or mice or other rodents but I was inadvertantly. The daily spillage was their nightly feast and it was not until maybe a year and a half in that I started noticing rats were around. The dogs alerted me to them and killed one or two.

Anyway, I started to cleanup the feeder every night after that. Four or five days later the trouble really started. You could hear the screaching and fighting as the group fought over whatever scraps were leftover each night and it was quite a disconcerting sound to hear. They were not expecting a famine and I was not expecting the response that followed. Come daylight on day six and the rats brazenly started coming out to fight over the seeds in broad daylight. There were dozens of them, Brown, Grey and White. My wife burnt a fuse when she saw what was happening in our yard so off I went to buy some live traps to start catching them. 

Knowing they were hungry I started trying out different foods to find out what they preferred. I am a curious person by the way but the Ex could have cared less and just wanted them gone. I tried canned dog and cat food. I tried leftovers from the fridge too. Meat scraps, mashed potatoes, veggies, cheese,... you name it. The answer in the end was Apples, Peanuts and Sunflower seeds. That was their preference hands-down over anything else I put out (Except for dog kibble which they gladly stole from the dogs dish until I started confiscating that at night too.) But most doggie crunchies are just grains flavoured meat anyway as you know.

So after a couple weeks I started to really enjoy their company (and had put off the trapping so I could just observe and feed them) They are very bright, smarter than squirrels by several factors and aggressive as mad dogs, especially with each other. Finally the gauntlet came down from the Ex and I had no choice anymore. Either catch them or kill them but get them out of the yard. In those days I did not know how many litters they could have in a year or how young they were when sexually mature. With my bird feeder as a good secure food source their population must have grown exponentially in a very short period of time and was actually out of control by the time the "traps" (two now as I had by this time discovered how many rats actually lived around us) were put into action.

So I started trapping. I tried every conceivable bait but I never, ever, ever, lured a rat successfully with meat, meat products or cheese even when they were near to starved. It was always peanuts, peanut butter, apples or other mixed seeds that pulled them in. Wild bird seed worked just fine. That was their first choice and I stand by that. I have read studies where rats will cannibalize each other, kill and eat their own young when there are too many living in confined spaces but then look what people do under the same circumstances. Nothing surprises me except what people do to each other.

There are a lot of fears and misconceptions about rats. For example, that they can carry rabies and that is just nonsense on average. Most people don't realize that rats and mice cannot co-exist together in the same place as they compete for the same food sources. Rats win hands down every time.

Anyway, I eventually caught and relocated dozens of rats. The first few nights I sat up and waited as the traps went of one after another in quick succession. Then it slowed. By weeks end I was lucky to get one each night but I knew some were still out there. These crafty ones had seen and learned the trap was a trap and refused to go into it no matter how hungry they got. How's that for smart! I had to buy a different kind of trap.

In the end the results supported what I have been trying to say here all along. Rats prefer seeds, nuts, grains and fruit over meat by a margin. Meat was not on their preferred menu at all and I could not catch one with it as bait. If rats are true omnivores, would they not be equally as likely to eat meat as grain? Or to drink milk or eat cheese. If meat is so popular with rats why is it most rat-bait (poison) is made from oats and the like instead of say, Pemican or Beef jerky or dried fish or scrambled eggs? Anyway, you can see my point.

I cannot dispute what others have seen with their own eyes or that your birds were attacked by rats. I can only think that perhaps there was a large population that, like mine got out of control and then everything became up for grabs, including pigeon babies. What healthy animals (rats) eat in a normal day isn't ordinarily meat or dairy though. There are so many exception of course like the rats that got released by early Europeans in the Mauritias for example and promptly went on to destroy the bird colonies by eating all the eggs. 

Oh well, I can only make my point of view from my own perspective and my personal experience. But I object to the idea that my comments were perhaps non-factual or misleading because they were not. And in any case my main point in the first post was primarily to say not to put poison down as it is also hazard to birds, secondly that spillage should be dealt with to avoid rat problems. But of course, me being me, I just had to launch in with rats are not really meat eaters. Most commentary here is about personal experiences anyway though and isn't that what this site is all about?  

Cameron


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Well Cam*

you sound like me, my whole family wanted the mice that moved into our garage baited and killed. After spending many nights in the garage watching them I started to enjoy their company, but it got out of hand one turned into 10 fast.. I made my own trap a tall kitchen trash can , I put newspaper with peanut butter stuck on it and hung and taped it over into the trash can, when the mice went to get the PB they would slip on the newspaper and fall into the trash. I caught all of them ,one by one that way. I transported them to the neighbors huge field next door. We have had pet rats and mice in the past they are so fun to watch.. They just don't live long enough.. 3 years max..

Andi

PS someone told me rats will go after pigeons and they go for the head, don't know if it's true or not


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