# HELP! 2 wk old Baby w/Canker



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Checked on single baby this morning - empty crop and alot of downy feathers (everybody is molting!) stuck to his beak. (I check him everyday and he always has a full crop)
Brought him inside to check him out and feed.
Found alot of seed and grit in his mouth and throat (some too big in my opinion)
Cleaned out as much as I could and noticed he has a lump on each side of his neck. Looked further down (as much as I could - very small) and think I see canker.
I tried to tube feed, but can't get it down the throat. (I've never had a problem tube feeding.)
Put on a heating pad.
I crushed about 30mg of metronidazole and put in it his mouth with a couple drops of water to wash it down.
He is alert, but having a little trouble breathing.
How can I feed him if his throat is blocked?
Any suggestions?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

can you use a smaller tube with the formula being very thin? may have to do more small feedings of course keep with the meds or add to the formula in liquid form.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> can you use a smaller tube with the formula being very thin? may have to do more small feedings of course keep with the meds or add to the formula in liquid form.


I'm going to try a smaller tube (I use the flexible catheters)
He wants to eat! but having trouble swallowing - and I'm having trouble passing the tube!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MsFreebird, 


Smaller diameter Tube ( what are you using for a 'tube'? ) ...

If a pediatric urinary Catheter kind, cut the end of the Tube to an acute angle, and, lightly soften the very end by briefly passing it over a flame.

Have the Pigeon in a 'Burrito' Mode, as you sit, good lighting, with their Beak opened, so you can see well, and, twirl the Tube ( I assume it is a soft flexible kind? such as a section of catheter?) for it to pass through the central interstices of the blockage, avoid allowing it to begin against the actual side of the esophagus.

Blockages which are too far down in the Esophagus, of course one can not see, and you have to do things by feel.

Blockage tends to accrue from the sides, and, to have fissures then in the center, through which a rightly cut Catheter end can pass if twirled and lubed well ( Olive Oil or KY).


A good, broad spectrum antibiotic would be a good idea to use in addition to the Metronidazole or other anti-canker med.

Mes can be dissolved in the Syringe, with a little ACV-Water...and or hydrated, squirted out into a tiny Cup, and drawn back in, and shaken, to make sure all is dissolved well.


Meds and formula feeds should be staggered by a few hours.


S'mimages here -


http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578005139kkdMDX


Phil
Lv


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi MsFreebird,
> 
> 
> Smaller diameter Tube ( what are you using for a 'tube'? ) ...
> ...


This is what I use and it's the smallest tube I have. I just tried again and I can't pass it 










I'll try cutting the tip on a slant like you suggest. It is very flexable.
When I open his beak and stretch up his neck to pass it, is when you can see the lumps on both side of the neck. Right side seems larger, so I'm trying in the left side (but the right is my favorite!)
I'm going to let him rest for awhile - he's getting stressed with me trying 
I did manage to get about 30mg of crumbled metronidazole into him, hopefully it starts working QUICK!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi msfb,


Probably the crumbled meds are adding now to the blockage.


Anyway, don't do any more Oral anything with this Bird untill the debris is gone...only use the catheter well into the Crop for any med-solutions or formula.

Possibly, some or even much of the 'lumps' are Seeds dammed up in mucous.


Maybe try softly 'massaging' the Lumps upward, and see what all you can get to come up and out.

Try this first and see what you can get...


Be patient, go slow...have a good 'Burrito' arrangement for holding him so you have both hands free, good light to see by...lube the Catheter well for three inches or more of it's length from the tip on up...


Be very sensitive to how it feels, twirling the Catheter.

Might be easier to twirl it with the Syringe not attatched...


Phil
Lv


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi msfb,
> 
> 
> Probably the crumbled meds are adding now to the blockage.
> ...


I cut a sharp slant on the tip and got it thru (twirling it), I was able to get 12cc of thin formula into him.
When I first brought him in I pulled out about 4 large seeds, some grit and a couple small seeds - as far as I could see using blunt tweezers.
I'll try massaging his neck.
Thank you for the help! - and Spirit wings too!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Very good!

Keep us posted...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Very good!
> 
> Keep us posted...


Thanks! I will


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Msfreebird, it might be a good idea to give the parents a good going over and treat them as well even if you don't see nothing obvious in the mouth/throat area.

Good luck with this little one,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Where are the images of the little Tyke?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you can't get the tubing down his throat, the baby can be fed with an eye dropper and thin formula, until some of the canker is cleared up from the throat. Use a small bright flashlight to make sure you have gotten all the stuck food and grit from his throat. You'd be surprised how much can be down there when there is a blockage. The parents should be treated, and actually all the birds should be treated as well.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> actually all the birds should be treated as well.


Yes, I agree, this is what I would do and probably the best course of action.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Here's pictures of the little guy/girl.
I just fed him 24cc exact (normal consistency) with 30mg of metronidazole mixed in with it. So he's had roughly 60mg metronidazole today (if he got the first 30 this afternoon).
I was able to get a few more small seeds out of his throat with a small piece of down feather with it!
I can clearly see alot of cheezy yellow in his throat w/mucous. Cleared out what I could, but I don't want to irritate it.
He's very alert and strong, hopefully I caught this early enough. He had a full crop yesterday in his nest and looked fine.










Here is the lump on the right side of his neck, when you pull his head up. Otherwise you can't see it 










**I treated the whole loft with Ronidazole this evening. Checked mom and dad and they look fine.
I haven't had a case of canker in like 5-6 years!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

a little olive oil on the tube may help it go in a bit easier...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> a little olive oil on the tube may help it go in a bit easier...


I'll try that, thanks
Once I maneuver it past that lump, it goes right down.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Msfreebird, 



Very glkad to hear you have succeeded in getting the Seeds and otyher involved forieng matter up and out..!


This will greatly help of course.


Indeed "yes", as others are reminding, make sure the Ube is well lubed so it slides in easily.


Best wishes!


Phil
lv


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Baby is still hanging in there 
Fed him another 24cc this morning. But before I could do that I had to clean alot of "stuff" out of his mouth.
I used a dampened Q-tip and got alot of "jelly type" mucous out of his mouth and throat 
Anybody know what that is? Never seen this before 
When I dealt with canker in the past, once the metro kicked in, the lesions would dry up and pop out.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Glad the baby is hanging there. With infections the body produces mucus sometimes as a protective barrier against further infection, this could be what's going on. Did you start the little one on a broad spectrum antibiotic as Phil mentioned? I would suggest TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) as it is an effective AB and Baytril would generally not be used in one this young with growing cartilage and bones. I would also suggest a few times a day giving 6-8mL of plain hydration fluid to keep him well flushed and help thin the mucus.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Glad the baby is hanging there. With infections the body produces mucus sometimes as a protective barrier against further infection, this could be what's going on. Did you start the little one on a broad spectrum antibiotic as Phil mentioned? I would suggest TMS (Trimethoprim/Sulfa) as it is an effective AB and Baytril would generally not be used in one this young with growing cartilage and bones. I would also suggest a few times a day giving 6-8mL of plain hydration fluid to keep him well flushed and help thin the mucus.
> 
> Karyn


OK I'll give the extra hydration fluids.
As for antibiotics - here goes-
I have.....
SMZ 960mg tablets
Azithromycin 100mg/5ml susp
Ciprofloxacin 500mg tablets
Amoxi 500mg capsules
Tetracycline 250mg capsules
Doxycycline 100mg tablets
Cephalexin 500mg capsules
Baytril 68mg tablets

He's still doing a little open mouth breathing
Not restless, still very alert and strong


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Msfreebird, you have a good selection of antibiotics. I would most likely start him on the SMZ (sulfamethoxazole) this drug makes up the sulfonamide part in some makes of TMS. I would start him at 30mg/kg BID and if you could pick up some TMS, if you get a chance, we could easily switch him to that, as I think the trimethoprim does add some synergy to the med. For the 960mg pill I would crush fine and add this to 20mL of syrup/water (8:2, 16mL syrup 4mL water) to form a 4.8% suspension (48mg/mL) and dose accordingly. 

Keep an eye on the open beak breathing, my feeling is that is from pressure being put on his trachea from the canker swelling, just make sure to keep checking for "wet" of "rattly" sounds, if this happens, we can add in a bit of Doxycycline.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Msfreebird, you have a good selection of antibiotics. I would most likely start him on the SMZ (sulfamethoxazole) this drug makes up the sulfonamide part in some makes of TMS. I would start him at 30mg/kg BID and if you could pick up some TMS, if you get a chance, we could easily switch him to that, as I think the trimethoprim does add some synergy to the med. For the 960mg pill I would crush fine and add this to 20mL of syrup/water (8:2, 16mL syrup 4mL water) to form a 4.8% suspension (48mg/mL) and dose accordingly.
> 
> Keep an eye on the open beak breathing, my feeling is that is from pressure being put on his trachea from the canker swelling, just make sure to keep checking for "wet" of "rattly" sounds, if this happens, we can add in a bit of Doxycycline.
> 
> Karyn


What do you use for "syrup"?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karo Lite syrup:

http://www.karosyrup.com/

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm TERRIBLE at math 
He's 1/4 pound - .11 kg ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yeah, math aches my brain sometimes too. I usually try and break it down in to 100 gram lots, this way it kind of acts as a check for me to make sure I am on the right track. So if a bird is supposed to get 30mg a kilo, this this then means for every 100mg of body weight, he should get 3mg of medicine (30 divided by 10= 3 and 1000 divided by 10= 100) So when I am calculating I now know that a bird that weighs 111gram should be getting a little over 3mg of med. The real way I do this is divide 30 by 1000, then multiply by 111 to get the exact dose for your bird which is 3.33mg of med. You can easily round this off, so if you gave him 0.07cc (roughly 3.6mg) you should be good.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Yeah, math aches my brain sometimes too. I usually try and break it down in to 100 gram lots, this way it kind of acts as a check for me to make sure I am on the right track. So if a bird is supposed to get 30mg a kilo, this this then means for every 100mg of body weight, he should get 3mg of medicine (30 divided by 10= 3 and 1000 divided by 10= 100) So when I am calculating I now know that a bird that weighs 111gram should be getting a little over 3mg of med. The real way I do this is divide 30 by 1000, then multiply by 111 to get *the exact dose for your bird which is 3.33mg of med. You can easily round this off, so if you gave him 0.07cc (roughly 3.6mg) you should be good.*
> 
> Karyn


LOL - OK! The rest of it, you lost me. Like I said - I am TERRIBLE at math - if I think too much about it and try to break in down, I get confused 
Thank you!


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*meds, canker*



Msfreebird said:


> LOL - OK! The rest of it, you lost me. Like I said - I am TERRIBLE at math - if I think too much about it and try to break in down, I get confused
> Thank you!



I am not going to recomend a dose but it sounds like to me they are on the money. The other day when I was reasearching meds, I was looking on foy's and came across this video on using needles to give meds and food to young birds. I am not sure if I could do this but he makes it look so easy. I was thinking if you called and talked to them they would be more then happy to give you all the advice you need. >Kevin

PS: looks like that little guy will pull threw. Oh one more, the video is in health care


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> LOL - OK! The rest of it, you lost me. Like I said - I am TERRIBLE at math - if I think too much about it and try to break in down, I get confused
> Thank you!


I know!, my eyes glazed over at 100 gram lots..lol..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Not to worry guys, I was just trying to say that anytime you see, "x" amount of mg/per kilo of medicine, a simple way, when it is a round double digit amount (10-90mg/kg), if you take the first number and ignore the rest, in this case 3 (the first number in 30mg/kg) you will know you will need 3mg of medicine for every 100mg of body weight, to put you in the ball park. This kind of keeps you safe by getting a rough estimate in medicine amounts, so if a bird weighed 300mg, you know would need roughly 9mg of med. When it is an uneven number, say 25mg/kg, you would place a decimal point in between the 2 and the 5 (2.5), so you would need 2 1/2mg for every 100mg of body weight. When it is triple digits 100>, say 150mg/kg, you would just use the first two numbers, in this case 15, so 15mg of med for every 100mg of body weight.

The reason I sometimes go through the math on some of this stuff is not only for the caregiver on a particular thread, but for others who read the thread as well. The thing with this stuff is that sometimes the light will just suddenly go on, so that you say to yourself, OK, I kinda' get it now, if it's done a few different ways from a few different angles.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Well it doesn't help that my scale IS NOT digital  It looks like the face on a clock - it's a kitchen scale that goes to 5 lbs  So I had to take 1/4 lb (.25 divided by 2.2 = .11 kg) for the babies weight! Right?!


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

msfreebird,

Walmart has a digital for $20. I gave up on the analog kitchen models for the same issue you seem to be facing; not discrete enough to be sure I am making safe decisions. 

I don't know if a Walmart is near you, but if there is one it might be worth a quick trip. 

* For the record, I am not a fan of walmart as we lost 2 grocery stores, several mom & pop businesses, and a pile of woodland when they moved a few of them into my area. But they are a good source for some things.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The way I do quick, rough grams to ounces is I use 30 grams to an ounce for easy math. When I need to be exact, I know there are 28.35gm in an ounce, so if your bird weighed precisely 4oz (1/4lb), he would weigh 113.40 grams (4 x 28.35= 113.40).


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Positive progress! Lumps on the neck are gone this morning.
Had trouble getting the tube in last night for feeding - the lumps were loosening up and starting to move when I tried to pass the tube. Finally got it thru.
There is still alot of dried mucous in and on his beak that I have to clean off.
Still alert, strong and starting to toddle around when he hears me. Alot of good poops 
Also, no open mouth breathing this morning


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## khawaja kashif (Aug 15, 2010)

give them flygle sysrup 1cc+teramycine 1/2 capsul+erthyromycine 1/4 tablets with help of 5cc water syring .consequently 5 dayz .
regards
kashif
pakistan


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sounds like progress!....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Always nice to get positive news in the morning . Glad to hear things are moving in the right direction and the open beak breathing has abated. Keep him real well hydrated for the time being to thin the mucus and flush his system and please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Msfreebird,


Very glad to hear!


Well done..!



Phil
Lv


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*Update!*

Had my boss check down his throat today, all the lesions are gone!!!
Still thinks the tube, syringe and teddy bear are "mom" 
Hasn't picked up on the bottle yet.
Here's some updated pics....Sorry, it's hard to get the little bugga to sit still!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Very nice to hear, and see..!



Glad they are feeling energetic and active.

Indeed, 'Peepers' and 'Squeakers' do NOT tend to hold 'still' if Mom or Dad or stand-ins for either, happen to be anywhere near and looking at them...one little glance, and they are suddenly all Wiggles and Wings and 'Peep!'s, even if a moment before, they were calm and serene and still as a statue...


Makes photographs not so easy unless one is satisfied with 'blurrs'!!


Lol...


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Way to go, Waynette! 
I'm delighted to hear your cute little one is doing so well!
Very best wishes for a speedy recovery.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Once you are confident his upper GI is clear, you could start hand feeding small whole Seeds.


There are a couple ways of doing this, and, if you like, I could describe the methods.

It is fun for them, fun for you, and gets them filled up really nicely, and fast, too, so they can lay around day dreaming with a nice, full Crop of Seeds, making for abundant picture-perfect poops..!


Lol...


Get some Finch Seed or Canary Mix, or some sort of Seed mix which is only the very small whole Seed kinds...White Safflower as the largest, say...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Once you are confident his upper GI is clear, you could start hand feeding small whole Seeds.
> 
> 
> There are a couple ways of doing this, and, if you like, I could describe the methods.
> ...


These are for your viewing pleasure, lol 
Poops.........










And we just love those little red seeds!










It's really hard to get good pictures of him............Wings are flapping all the time!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

those are some nice poops! good job, this one must be so worriesome for you.a tuff case of canker. good to see positve updates!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Lovely droppings, and a cutie pie bird, always nice to have the right tools and meds on hand.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovely poops!


Someone should do a Calendar, where, each month is an image of a different, if lovely poop!!!


Lol...


Who needs all those Waterfalls, snow Capped Mountains, Meadows or fields of Flowers with grazing Fawns and so on???


So...are they pecking?


Phil
Lv


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> I'm going to try a smaller tube (I use the flexible catheters)
> He wants to eat! but having trouble swallowing - and I'm having trouble passing the tube!


baby formula, add honey, warm water, and the meds, and use a syringe


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

*Update on Canker Baby....*

Here he/she is.........Doing great!
Dad is a Portuguese Tumbler I got from member PattersonK, Mom is a red Homer


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh good!


What a cutie, too!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He looks great. glad he is feeling better.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Thanks, he/she is such a sweety, sooooo tame


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