# Hi.....It's Alea with the 2 babies again.



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

I am trying a new post because I have tried a few times to post on the other one with no luck. Here goes,... little Ali has been on the Nystatin for 2 days with no marked improvement. I have looked carefully down into his beak and the tissue looks pink and healthy, but he is still not digesting much at all. He is still so "full", even after 12 hours at night without feed, that I could only give him about 5 ml. of water this morning. I am growing desperate as I can tell he is starving,... biting at my fingers and his own feet when I hold him... I hate emptying his crop but I think maybe that will get things moving along??? My heart is breaking over this, but I don't know what I can do. At lunch I am going to give him the medicine and some water and massage, but I am at a loss. Any thoughts on that baking soda treatment I've read about?


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I'm sorry little Ali is continuing to have such problems. Go ahead and empty the crop again as it's not good for the contents to just be sitting there and fermenting. The baking soda treatment does often work but entails giving no food and only water for two days. You'll have to decide if Ali is strong enough to handle this. I've asked for some expert advice from some other folks who will hopefully be along shortly to help us out.

Hang in there!

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Here are some pictures of Alea's babies:

http://www.rims.net/alea1.jpg 

http://www.rims.net/alea2.jpg 

http://www.rims.net/alea3.jpg 

http://www.rims.net/alea4.jpg 


You can clearly see how much smaller little Ali is in the pictures.

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I just had a quick e-mail from Helen (Nooti). She is a member here and a very experienced rehabber. She suggests going back on the Baytril right away and continue for weeks if necessary. If you are running out of Baytril, please privately e-mail me your snail mail address, so I can send you some more.

Terry


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

That is awesome. I have a few pills left... (3, I think) But I would be very grateful if you could send some more. 

Will e mail you shortly.

Alea


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Can you tell me - does the food in the crop go doughy? In other words does it feel as though the liquid content of what you are feeding is being digested, but the food content isn't? If this is so then this will probably be paratyphoid and the babe will need some very intensive nursing if it is to live.
If it is paratyphoid, the trick is to keep giving fluids every so often until the food has been digested. So you may only give formula once or twice a day but you may find that you have to give fluids every hour. If you don't do this the bird will become dehydrated and die of organ failure. You may even have to get up during the night to do this. Continue to give Baytril at the same time and keep the bird warm 
Hope this helps.


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Just sneaked a quick look at the piccies and I have to say it looks like a paratyphoid victim, but without actually examining the baby I couldn't be sure on this.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks Helen! Should Alea continue with the Nystatin and probiotcs?

Terry


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Thanks Helen! Should Alea continue with the Nystatin and probiotcs?
*******************
Hey! Not probiotics - you are introducing bacteria which the Baytril will kill and you are just diverting the Baytril to tackle good bacteria when you want it to tackle the bad. Don't overwork the antibiotics or you will just lose the bird.
Probiotics are for after a course of antibiotics - not during.
As For Nystatin, well there are no contra-indications so no reason why not but I think this is a case of paratyphoid, therefore Nystatin would be useless.
What dosage of Baytril is being used?


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The Baytril is being given at approximately 5 mg twice per day (1/4 tab of the 22.7 mg tablets). I don't have anymore of these so am sending Alea 68 mg tablets to be dissolved in 13 cc/ml distilled water to approximate the same dose in 1 cc/ml. I have advised her that you may suggest more or less and how to calculate how much solution to give. Nystatin is being given at 0.5 cc/ml once per day.

Terry


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

That's quite a high dose - but necessary I think............ No I don't think I would object to that if it was my bird. The trick now is to maintain that strength in the system for as long as it takes.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks again, Helen. How do we know when to stop the Baytril? I've sent Alea enough for about another 4 weeks. Also should she be keeping the little one on thin'ish formula or go with soaked puppy chow or try to get the youngster on seeds?

Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 05, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Well if it is paratyphoid then dehydration is something you will be fighting so any form of 'dry' food is a no-no. Thin formula is better as the intention is to keep fluid intake to the maximum.
As to how long to continue Baytril - well at least two more weeks then reassess.
Reassessment is easier if the bird is weighed on a daily basis as much info can be gained just by looking at a daily chart.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks again, Helen! Alea, I know you'll read thru all of the posts when you get here next time .. anyway, it's thin formula, Baytril, and Nystatin if you want for the time being. No probiotics until we are thru with the Baytril. Be sure to watch for dehydration as Helen has posted. Do you have a scale that can weigh in grams or at least ounces? If so you want to start weighing Ali everyday at about the same time and before feeding (crop should be as empty as possible). Keep a record of the daily weights. I believe that Walmart sells a nice kitchen scale called Good Cook or something to that effect at a pretty reasonable price. It weighs in grams or ounces and has a tare feature which makes things a lot easier. If you don't have a scale then maybe that can be just a little extra early Valentine's for you. I'm sure your significant other is probably about ready to run at this point <LOL>!

Terry

PS: The Baytril was mailed at the Post Office around noon today, so hopefully you will get it tomorrow.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello,

Sorry to hear about little Ali,

I just looked at the pics, I've seen salmonella in many of the babies that grew up on my balcony few summers ago and to me as Nooti said also it looks like it in the pics...

Hope your sweet pidge fully recovers soon..

Keep us posted!

Mary


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello all, and thank you all so much for taking the time to share your knowledge (and medicines) with me. Well, I emptied the crop and started him back on Baytril at lunchtime yesterday. I could tell he was starving but still appeared strong. By 6pm he was very weak,... trying to cry with no sound coming from him... I was fairly certain I was going to lose him in the night. I fed him a bit.. (a very runny feed,... it was the consistency of milk), and said a little prayer. At midnight I got up to dose him and give a little water, (which I am glad to hear was the right thing to do) and he still wasn't looking too good. By the morning, though, he seems to have regained a little strength. Still not doing great, but better, I think. I will be off work at luchtime today, so I will try to send a quick update after I check him. 
I really appreciate the advice. To answer your question (Nooti) the formula is indeed doughy when I empty the crop. Yes, I think he is certaily absorbing (and passing) alot of the water but little or no food. He is also very clumsy,... and I don't remember Noisy being that way at that size. He falls over on his back alot... but maybe that is just from being so weak. I will certainly push fluids, and stay on the formula... Stop probiotics and get a scale. Thanks again for the help. I'm sure he'd be a goner without all of you.
Alea


[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 06, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Well your description just about convinces me that you are dealing with paratyphoid here. 
There's still a chance to save him, but it does mean intensive nursing and watching for the slightest signs, even in the middle of the night. Are you able to do this? I suspect you are. 
Warmth, fluids and Baytril. These are the three vital things. Paratyphoid seems to dehydrate the major organs big style. This is because the digestive system is slowed to a halt almost, and as you say the fluid seems to go right through and come out the otherside, with very little digested. 
The main thing is to keep to the major organs hydrated, that's pushing fluids, together with thin formula. Vitamins can be given to help, but no probiotics. Because very little nutrition is being absorbed into the system the bird will be starved, with no reserves, therefore warmth at a constant temperature is vital. Around 75F If he has to use resources to maintain body heat he will go downhill very quickly. If you are able to take responsibility for maintaining his core body temperature at normal that is one less job for him to have to work at.
And don't forget the baytril. The idea of antibiotics is to reach and maintain a certain level of it in the system for a certain length of time. In this case it could be anything up to 4 weeks. Baytril does inhibit bone and feather growth if given to growing youngsters, but he will catch up and get over that.
That's all I can think of right now. Good luck..................... and ask away if you have any questions.
PS - don't empty the crop - it's not necessary - keep adding fluids until you are able to feed again. Baytril will stop the development of any infection caused by food too long in the crop. I have never needed to empty any of my paratyphoid cases.
A quick tip here - often resting the crop area on a hot water bottle speeds up digestion of the contents. Could be worth a try?

[This message has been edited by Nooti (edited February 06, 2004).]


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Helen and Terry, 
Thanks a lot!!! Lots of good info here... The hot water bottle especially... I may be forced to go on a road trip this weekend. I don't want to move him, but may be forced to take him with me, and was trying to think of what I could use in lieu of a heating pad for a couple of hours. I am just curious,... what causes paratyphoid? I got the birds at about 7 days old,... do you think he had it when I got him? He was smaller than the other but only slightly. To me he just looked as though he hatched last. I really want this little guy to pull through and am willing to go to great lengths to make sure that he does. What kind of vitamins should I look for? I don't have alot of confidence in the advice of the pet store employees... even at the bird store.
While I am on this subject I have another question... The other pij is healthy... doing just fine, but they are about 4 weeks old now, and he is "spoiled". =o) He doesn't eat much if anything on his own. He waits for me to feed him and cries like he is starving at feeding time. I have been handfeeding soaked puppy chow, a bit of formula and seed. I think I should be feeding him less so that he actually gets hungry enough to eat on his own, but I am a softy and have a bit of a hard time with that. Any suggestions? Should I just toughen up and skip feedings? I am still feeding both of them 3x per day. 

Thanks Again!!



[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 06, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Alea
The parents carry the paratyphoid virus and it is passed from mother to egg. Curiously only one baby is ever affected. The other is almost always normal.
As for self feeding - the earliest I've got a baby to self feed is 18 days. Average about 22 days. Yours should be self feeding now. Toughen up and stop feeding- ( a hell of a lot harder for you than for him). Ignore the pleadings - parent birds do, and he will cotton on for himself.
As long as he is definitely 4 weeks old he will eat for himself. Put a dish of seed and a dish of water in and leave him. If he is fat and healthy it will take him 4 days before he is emaciated and needing help, so that will give you a guide. If he has eaten nothing in 48 hours - then give him one feeding and see what happens. But usually they've eaten before then. General advice is to cut down on feeds, but that makes the transition harder and longer, as baby will just stick it out until the next feed. If feeds are cut and he doesn't supplement for himself then he will just become thin and weak. Stopping feeding altogether usually has a quicker result. Check the crop area and you should feel seed in there once he starts eating.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Since the little one cannot have the probiotics because of the Baytril, he should not be getting any multi vitamins, at this time. If the multi-vitamin-mineral, has calcium in it, it will bind with the Baytril rendering it ineffective.

You can give a multi-vitamin to the "big guy" once he is on pigeon seed. You should not use it more then once a week, using correct dosage. I have an avian multi called "Prime" which is for all birds. I alternate it with a pigeon multi from Globals. You can give "big guy" the pro-biotics, as long as he is not on Baytril. 

Treesa


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dang! Alea, the Baytril came back to me today for $0.12 postage due .. not from the weight but because the envelope was a little bit thick. I'm really sorry. I've sent it out again today to you. I thought I was being extra careful by going to the post office to weigh the envelope .. less than an ounce, but it never occurred to me that having wrapped the tablets up would cause a problem. Hopefully you will finally get the meds on Monday, and even more hopeful that Ali will be OK until then.

Terry


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Not to worry Terry, I still have 1 whole pill left, so we are good to go for 2 more days. I figured there must have been some problem when it wasn't here on Saturday, but no biggie. Well, he seems to be doing better. In the mornings his crop is completely empty, so I am optimistic. I can't give him water quite as often as Helen suggested, but I still feed 3x per day, and give water between feedings. That seems to be just about perfect. I did get a scale,... he is weighing in at a whopping 2.5 oz. and been holding there for the past 3 days. =( Still, he seems to be gaining some strength, so that's good. The "big guy" is eating seed...(and his name is Bert, by the way... after the chimney sweep in "Mary Poppins".) I was worried for nothing about that. All I did was take him out at feeding time and instead of formula in the syringe or soaked puppy chow, I offered him nothing but a handful of seeds. He started pecking at them and the rest is history... (made a heck of a mess too) I tried weighing him too, but he just won't stay still. I think he is about 8 oz. 
Thank you all again, for the help. I'll be back to give you little updates.
Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update, Alea. I was starting to get concerned about little Ali. Sounds like Bert is doing excellently! Does your scale weigh in grams as well as ounces? If so, you want to use the gram weights to track how Ali is doing. Hope the Baytril makes it to you tomorrow!

Terry

PS: 2.5 ounces=70.875 grams; 8 ounces=226.8 grams



[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 09, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

(2.5 ounces=70.875 grams)
Thanks Terry for the translation. Hi Alea, glad the baby is still with us. Feeding three times a day and water in between sounds very good to me. Keep up the Baytril...... !!! He may just make it!
As for the healthy one - which is probably the hen, it seems to be the cock babies which suffer paratyphoid as a chick rather more than the hens, well I said self feeding would probably be no big deal!
So glad the news is good.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hmmmm .. Bert may have to become Bertha then!

Terry


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

"Bertha" is okay too =o)
All is still going well,... just a couple of questions, if you all would be so kind:
I let Bert bop around the kitchen for at least an hour or 2 a day, and I've noticed that he (she?) flies in the box to be with Ali. It's very sweet, and I just want to ask if this is okay? Is paratyphoid communicable?
Also, I noticed Helen saying "the healthy one is probably the hen"... is it likely that one is male and one is female? Is it always that way? Sorry for all the obscure questions,... I should probably buy a book. Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 11, 2004).]


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

As nest mates, they will cling to each other for companionship. Let's see what the others say, the disease can be passed on thru the droppings and water dishes and seed dishes, but they don't share feeding dishes, yet. I would maintain a seperate place for each.

I have a pair of breeders that have had 3 sets of boys! They have had boy and girl in one set of eggs, and then nothing but boys!

Treesa


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
I wouldn't seperate them, there's no point now as they spent the first weeks of their lives together. If the virus was going to be passed on it will have done so by now.
The other healthy chick is often a carrier- showing no symtoms but could pass the virus to its offspring - and so the cycle continues.
For some reason the healthy one never seems to get sick through being in contact with it sibling. Don't ask me why, sadly I don't know everything.......


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Good to hear. I had them seperated for awhile, but it's obvious they want to be together, so I am letting them sleep together in the nest box at night and keep each other company for a couple hours in the afternoon. I put Bert in the cage in the day, and there he eats seed and lays in the sun alot. =o)
Just wondering,... if paratyphoid is a virus, then what is the Baytril actually doing? I mean, I've always thought that viruses just had to run their course, and that the victim either made it through or didn't. Whatever it's doing it's working... 
BTW, Terry, as of yesterday I still haven't received anymore Baytril. I hope it arrives today, as I will be in dire straits by tomorrow morning. Please post or give me a call and let me know when you remailed it. Of course you know I am willing to drive back up to see you if need be. 
Thanks again.
Alea



[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 12, 2004).]


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

The Baytril went out again to you on Saturday, the 7th. It definitely should have arrived by now. If it doesn't show up today, please let me know, and I'll see if I can send some at least as far as Fallbrook with a friend who lives there. I would need to catch her before she passes by here late this afternoon on her way home.

Terry


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
The Baytril is actually dealing with secondary infections which develop while a body is ravaged by the virus. These secondary infections produce the symptoms which you see in a paratyphoid victim, such as the dehydration etc. You deal with the secondary infections and leave the virus to run its course, which can take quite some time, hence the need to continue antibiotics for longer than normal.


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Terry, 
The Baytril still has not arrived. I really hope it is not too late for you to catch your friend... There must have been a problem with the mail. I will check back here at around 3p.m. before I leave work,.. or you can call my cell phone, as I check that periodically during the work day. If I don't hear anything from you I am going to starting harassing local vets. =o)

Helen, thanks for the good info. That makes sense!
Alea


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Terry,
Well, shoot...I am leaving work now. I am going to drive up to a veterinary clinic where they know me and see if I can get some Baytril. I will call you in an hour or so and let you know if I have any luck.
Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I've put a call into my friend in case I need to send some Baytril down south with her. Call me on my cell # and let me know how you do at the vet's. If I don't hear from you shortly, I'll give you a call.

Terry


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hi Terry, (and all my other e pals)
In case you didn't get my message the other night, all is well. Not only does everyone seem healthy, but I now have enough baytril to last me for months! =o)
My Bert/Bertha is starting to fly around big time. For some reason s/he likes the top of the stove...(yikes!)So now I have to be careful to keep them caged whenever I have cooked recently. 
I have noticed that she doesn't seem to eat as much as she used to,... certainly not nearly as much as when I was handfeeding her... Is this normal? I'm not too concerned because at any time of day I can feel seed in her crop, it's just that it's very little. She never ever looks "full" the way she did when I was feeding her. 
Little Ali is hanging in there, but he isn't putting on any weight. Of course I am concerned,... it's been over a week again on the Baytril. He is still half-naked and very, very small. I have started mixing in a "soaked puppy chow puree" with the formula at his night meal. I hope he starts gaining weight soon. 
Oh, and BTW, I was reading in another thread about feeding adults and had a question. Right now I am feeding a "wild pigeon and dove mix" to Bertie. Is this good, or should I look for something better. Also, can anyone recommend a good Avian vitamin? The pet/bird stores frustrate me because it seems they have nothing for pigeons specifically.
Thanks.... Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Thanks so much for the update on Bertie and Ali. I think of you and them every day. I'm glad the Baytril finally made its way to you and appreciate you going up to Pamela's to get it.

It is normal for Bertie's crop to be less elastic and smaller in appearance. It's also normal that the quantity of food consumed is less than what s/he was gobbling up as a tiny baby on formula. It sounds like Bertie is doing perfectly.

We/you are in for the long haul with little Ali. As Helen (Nooti) has posted, it will be a very long time before Ali ever catches up with Bertie and perhaps Ali never will. It's quite OK to be a petite pigeon as long as Ali is a strong and healthy petite pigeon. Unless I'm off on my figuring, Ali still has at least 3 more weeks of Baytril to go, and then we'll have to see how s/he does. While I wish Ali were gaining weight, it's good that s/he is not losing any. If any significant amount of weight loss occurs, I think we are then in deep doodoo so to speak.

The avian vitamins available in the pet stores should be fine for the birds, but you probably should get familiar with the real pigeon supply places for future reference. We have JEDDS up here by me (http://www.jedds.com)and there are many others on-line such as Foy's, Global, and Siegel's. The pigeon supply houses will have all the necessary products and specifically for pigeons.

If you can get your friend to take a picture or two of the babies and send them to me, I think it would be helpful to everyone in assessing how Ali is doing. I would like to see Bertie too now that s/he is getting to be a big bird.

Terry


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Terry, you are awesome!
I will certainly check out the more pijjie-specific feed stores, etc. and get the vitamins. I will also send pics as soon I can. Originally, Helen said at least 2 weeks and then reassess,... but we're one week+ down and with no weight gain, I'd say you are correct. 2-3 more weeks at least. I also called the county veterinarian/center for disease control, and they will test a stool sample,... however, it's 25$ for the virus/bacteria test, and 25$ to test for parasites. 50 bucks in all, and while what I'm doing seems to be working, I am reluctant to pay that. Still, I would like to know for sure that I am doing the best I possibly can for him. This week at work I am going to be extremely busy as it is, so hopefully all will stay well this week, then I will probably bring a sample to be tested next Monday.
Thanks for thinking of us! I'll definitely keep you posted.
Alea

[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 17, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Nice to hear from you and to hear that little baby is still alive. Terry has answered your questions superbly there's little for me to add! 
forget the weight for now, how is the baby in general? Do you still get the dehydration? Is he alert? Is the crop emptying?
If he seems ok other than no weight gain then all you can do is keep ploughing on.
Lab tests are a good idea, but I have to warn you that the paratyphoid virus is not shed with every single dropping so there is a risk that you could use a 'virus free' dropping. Not trying to put you off tests at all, just wanted you to be aware in case a result came back negative that's all.
There's still along way to go yet, but you sound like you are doing great.


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hi Helen. I'm glad you posted. I hate to say this, but I am afraid the crop is starting to slow down again. I became concerned yesterday when it wasn't completely empty in the morning. This morning it was again, not empty. In fact, I'd say it was almost half full. So far I am still able to feed about 10cc. 3 times a day, so it's not getting too scary yet, but I have this sinking feeling that it is slowing down. I am afraid that maybe it has something to do with how I am now giving the Baytril??? One 68 mg tab dissolved in 13cc. of water to approximate 5 mg of Baytril in 1cc of water. I'ts probably just a coincidence, but it bothers me that his crop seemed to slow down right around the same time I ran out of the smaller tablets. I am very careful to keep the solution moving as I pull it into the syringe, so that it gets evenly mixed,... but other than that I don't know what to do.

P.S. At first I was not refrigerating the Baytril solution in between feedings, and now I am. Don't know if this makes a difference or not. Inputs/advice? I sure would appreciate it.
Alea 

[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 18, 2004).]


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Well dang! I'm so sorry that the crop slowness seems to be back. I truly don't think the Baytril has much, if anything, to do with the crop being slow to empty. There is a slight difference, however, in the amount of Baytril we are getting into Ali. With the 22.7 mg tablets, a quarter tab was 5.675 mg per dose. With the 68 mg tabs dissolved in 13cc of distilled water the dose is slightly less .. 5.230 mg per cc/ml. Why don't you try giving just a bit more of the solution .. say 1.1 cc/ml of the solution. For the next batch, use only 12 cc of distilled water .. that will get the concentration back to almost the same as a quarter tab. I do refrigerate my solution, but I don't think it makes any real difference.

Let's see what Helen and others suggest .. 

Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 18, 2004).]


----------



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hi Terry.
I know,... I am really bummed but as long as I am able to keep getting 10cc of food in him 3x per day, I think he will be okay. I guess I should have mentioned that other than that he looks fine...alert, and always begging. I will take more pictures ASAP, but he pretty much looks the same. No more feathers than before, (still half naked) and very little, if any growth. He may have very slightly increased his wing span, but it's very slight, if at all. I guess I will be taking a sample in sooner than I thought, though. =( 
Thanks for the info.
Alea 


[This message has been edited by alea (edited February 18, 2004).]


----------



## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Alea
Just when you think everything's going well things start to go downhill again. I see that often here with all sorts of wildlife casualties and it is so disheartening. You can increse the Baytril dose - it won't do any harm. 30mls -(cc's) of formula a day is very little. As a rough guide at his age he should be getting 120mls. All you can do is persevere and pray. His growth will be severely retarded as Baytril inhibits bone growth. If he survives he will catch up, just take a long time about it.
Any suspension should be kept in the fridge and any unused discarded after 10 days. I have an oral solution available to me here in the UK which is excellent for shelf life- about 2 years, and ease of administration, but I have not seen it available in the States.


----------



## alea2 (Feb 20, 2004)

Hi all. I am writing under a new name because I can not access my work e mail right now. If you wish to e mail me, please go back in to the thread and e mail Alea,.. not Alea2. Thank you.
Helen:
I thank you for your response. From the time he was just 2 weeks old he was only getting about 30 ml. per day, so at 6 weeks+, I know this is bad, I just didn't realize how bad.
I am torn.
Of course I will keep trying,... but this news just makes me think that he is doomed, and maybe I should have let "Mother Nature" take her course... ??? Is my keeping him alive just causing a longer period of pain and suffering? 
When I took him off Baytril the first time (after 7 days) he was improving!!! But within 48 hours after taking him off, he deteriorated dramatically. (not digesting food at all) 
So now, he has been on it again 14 days, and is not too good,.. but still digesting some food. What should I do? It is still better than before?...I will go to the County Vet/Disease control office on Monday, have a poop sample tested, and hope for the best. If there is any way I can save him, I will... but I HATE seeing him suffer. I instinctively knew he was not getting enough nutrition even after the second improvement on meds, because he would still try to bite me and his own feet whenever it was feeding time. It kills me,... it is obviously not normal. For a long time, on meds, he has been able to digest 30 cc.'s (10 cc. 3x per day. + meds) But NO MORE!!!!!
AND, often I would think I was overfilling him. I would feel so guilty at the night-time feeding,... he was so full.. thinking I might asphyxiate him,... just trying to get enough nutrition in him, I think I came close to overfilling him many times. But what can I do?
Helen, if you feel comfortable, please e mail me, to the posts entitled "Alea", please.. I am with a friend tonight,.. and not sure if I will be able to e mail in the next 48 hours..however, I am making it my mission to get a few pictures.

Talk to you soon.
Alea


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I feel the hurt, concern, and frustration you are going through with little Ali. Please know that you are doing everything that can be done. The fecals on Monday may tell us something and they also may not.

At this point, the only choice is to keep doing the best you and we can for Ali. S/he is either going to "get over the hump" or not. I think Ali still has a good chance of making it but only your continued efforts and devotion can make that happen. If Ali decides to give up, then s/he will in spite of anything you do. Ali is still fighting, so I think we all have to keep fighting too.

I hope Helen or another member can offer some sound advice on what to do, but I'm afraid you're already doing what can be done.

Try to hang in there and have a nice weekend if you can!

Terry


----------

