# PoopZilla Strikes Again! (and again, and again, and...)



## ryannon

Just a little update in the never-ending saga of the destruction of my life by the Mighty PoopZilla: any shred of self-respect I still posess is being systematically demolished by PoopZilla's sex-drive as it kicks into high gear in what must be his sixth or seventh month of existence.

This bird is - there's no other word for it - jumping my bones every time he gets a chance: in the morning, the afternoon and even late at night when any normal pigeon would be sleeping.

The routine is always the same: a perfunctory courting dance, a few grunts, and then BANG! - right onto any part of me that's horizontal. His favorite partners: either of my two feet, my hands or my knees. Since he has access to my bed and likes to visit when I'm in it, I have an awful feeling that *my head *is next on his list!

I wouldn't feel so _used_ if he displayed a bit of tenderness and affection afterwards: it would be nice to talk things over, look at each other in the eyes, spend a little quality time together. But there's none of this, and even worse, when he's finished, he generally runs off, circles back, and starts biting me! 

Am I _that bad?_  

But the very worst, horrible, sordid, unbearable part of it all _is that I'm a guy!_  


At least I thought I was, up till now.


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## mr squeaks

Oh, Jonathan....I just have this to say....

*ROFLMAO !!*

However, I can commiserate! Squeaks is currently in "mate" mode and I'm his mate...but, Squeaks IS a COCK and I am a HEN, soooooo, we're  ...

Unfortunately, the Poopster doesn't have the luxury of female companionship, soooo, I hate to say this, but, YOU DA MATE...

Sending HUGS and SCRITCHES at this difficult time...for you, that is...  

Shi


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## ryannon

mr squeaks said:


> Oh, Jonathan....I just have this to say....
> 
> *ROFLMAO !!*
> 
> However, I can commiserate! Squeaks is currently in "mate" mode and I'm his mate...but, Squeaks IS a COCK and I am a HEN, soooooo, we're  ...
> 
> Unfortunately, the Poopster doesn't have the luxury of female companionship, soooo, I hate to say this, but, YOU DA MATE...
> 
> Sending HUGS and SCRITCHES at this difficult time...for you, that is...
> 
> Shi



Thanks.

Do you think he expects me to lay an egg?


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## TheSnipes

ryannon said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Do you think he expects me to lay an egg?


He may be VERY disappointed in you if you don't!


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## maryjane

mr squeaks said:


> Oh, Jonathan....I just have this to say....
> 
> *ROFLMAO !!*
> 
> 
> Shi


I couldn't say it better myself!!!!!!


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## Roxy

That is hilarious. Why don't you get him a beanie baby birdie friend?


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## Lovebirds

Why don't you just give the poor guy a couple of dummy eggs?? ACT like YOU laid them, put them in a nice nesting area and see what he does.......of course, you'll have to take YOUR turn incubating,  but............what the heck? If it will keep his mind off of "having his way with you" for a couple of weeks......


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## ryannon

If they weren't so expensive, I swear I'd buy one of these without any hesitation:

http://www.kilian-nakamura.com/catalog/paro-robot-seal-healing-p-144.html


I saw a far less expensive puppy version, and they're quite amazing. I immediately thought of using one to get PoopZilla off my back, so to speak...


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## Victor

*"I fought Poopzilla, and Poopzilla won."*

You have already lost the battle...get some dummy eggs at a crafts store, and ...just give up.


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## ryannon

Victor said:


> *"I fought Poopzilla, and Poopzilla won."*
> 
> You have already lost the battle...get some dummy eggs at a crafts store, and ...just give up.



I'd feel guilty of depriving him of getting off.

The situation is hopeless.


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## Pidgey

Unfortunately, you're going to have to be the one sitting on the eggs for most of the time, say 20 hours per day.

Can you work at home with a laptop?

Pidgey


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## ryannon

Pidgey said:


> Unfortunately, you're going to have to be the one sitting on the eggs for most of the time, say 20 hours per day.
> 
> Can you work at home with a laptop?
> 
> Pidgey



Actually, what I meant to say was that I'd feel guilty about preventing him from _getting his jollies..._  

It's a guy thing...solidarity between men, and all that.

I'd like to think of myself as his _wing man_.

And not just his girlfriend


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## Acquistapace

That is just too funny. How true it is. Your problem reminds me of the time my daughter came for a visit and she would always go see each pigeon that we kept in a cage in the house, She took Noel out of his cage and he sat on her hand as she stroked his back down to his tail feathers over and over, she was amazed how calm and attentive he was. HA, after she put him back in his cage she noticed a big wet spot on the back of her hand she asked her grandmother what that was, after grandma explained what that was, my poor daughter was in shock, and disgusted, the look on her face was priceless. In the future she would visit Noel from the outside of the cage. Good Luck. Linda


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## ryannon

He's just starting out...we haven't got to the _big wet spot _stage yet.... 

On second thought, I think I'd better buy some of those eggs.


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## Lovebirds

Well, once he's "got his jollies"........ 
THEN you give him the eggs...........he will THINK he's done what he's supposed to and he'll be happy as a pig in mud for about 3 weeks.........


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## maryjane

What exactly is this thread rated anyway???  I must still stick to my original (Shi's original) statement. . .ROFLMAO!


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## ryannon

maryjane said:


> What exactly is this thread rated anyway???



I understand your concern, and I apologize for the rather salacious turn this thread has taken.

Try as I might to keep things on an even keel, PoopZilla always manages to drag things down to his level - which as most of you can guess, is pretty close to the ground. 

He's a master of manipulation, and like I've said, you can't fight him. 

Just be careful you don't end up joining him


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## mr squeaks

OK, imo, Jonathan...I see three possible solutions to your(?) dilemma:

1. Get Poopzilla a mate of his own species

However, if I remember correctly, that is not an option...at least at this time?

2. A stuffed "surrogate."

That article about the seal was amazing! But, to fit the pocketbook, some of our members have purchased stuffed pigeons or other birds/animals, which have worked VERY well!

3. Get a basket or bowl and a wooden (my preference) or plastic dummy "pigeon" sized egg or two. 

As you know, Squeaks is an only pigeon and has chosen me as his mate. Now that he is an adult, he will go through periods of "mate" and "daddy" modes. The "daddy" modes last much longer than mate ones and he will spend hours sitting on his egg. I have found that shredded paper or soft paper towel, cut into strips, work GREAT as nesting material. All I have to do is plop a handful next to his basket and in less than 10 minutes, they have all disappeard...under him! When he goes into "mate" mode, everything is thrown out, his towel is washed and we prepare for the next time.

Now, having said all that, you WILL have to submit to Poopzilla's mate modes and just "go with the flow." YOU HAVE BEEN CHOSEN...

I wish you the best and really look forward to your future adventures and solutions with the Poopster!  

Hugs and Scritches

Shi
& Squeaks (who says he understands Poopzilla's position (no pun intended) and can relate because he says that training a human mate is very difficult...with some being harder to train than others! He says that Poopzilla sure has his work cut out for himself but sends his _full_ support!)


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## ryannon

Mr. Sqeaks & Shi,

Thank you for your kind thoughts, suggestions and support in this difficult moment.

I love the idea of a surrogate toy pigeon - great idea!

I'll bet the PoopMeister would go for it as well - it would certainly have to be more stimulating than making love to my foot  

Where would one find such an object?

Maybe toy sales on the 'Bay?

Gonna have to seriously study this question....


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## Victor

*Stuffed pigeon toy a must!*

*Here is a post from Sept 28, 2005 that I researched. Hope the link helps! *

Hi everyone,

For those of us that are single pigeon pet owners, sometimes our pet birds like something else other than our company, or a mirror or hanging bell to play with. 

Several months ago there was an interesting thread on pigeon toys for single pigeons, and several mentions about the lack of pigeon stuffed toys. 

Just a few weeks ago one of the members had hoped that after the pigeon movie, VALIANT, that maybe someone would produce some of its pigeon characters. That still and probably will happen, but here is a link that will take you to a place called on line nature mall, and features birds of many varieties, including the Rock pigeon and morning dove. 

I ordered mine for Tooter a few days ago. I thought he would like it better than the old white seal toy that he has now. 

You click on "plush toys" and it will take you to their world of birds including pigeons. All the birds available are real colorful beauties.

http://www.onlinenaturemall.com/Gifts/


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## mr squeaks

We will have to wait until some of the other members, who actually bought these stuffed doves/pigeons/others, come on.

I didn't pay much attention to WHERE they were available because the attempts I had made (and, to be honest, _not_ very hard) to introduce a surrogate to Squeaks from various cat toys I had around, did not interest him. He wanted ME and NO one else! 

So, to comment about your foot...well, there IS the possibility that your foot or other anatomy parts will always be preferable to anything - ah - not alive. Pigeons usually mate for life...sorry, but may be too late for you... 

Now, the GOOD news is, IF PoopZilla decides to abandon you and seek another as his mate, you and your foot (etc.) are off the hook (in a manner of speaking!  ) One can always hope!  

As always, sending you and PoopZilla...hugs and scritches

Shi 
& Squeaks (who just told me that he personally thinks PoopZ. has already made his choice!) 

*AHA! I see Victor has come to the "rescue!"*


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## ryannon

Wow! 

Great link, Victor, and thank you!

I wonder if he'd go for the cute little Puffin?

All kinds of interesting possibilities there....


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## Cassiopeia

For a surrogate mate, beanie babies usually work well.  My birds seem to prefer them if the real thing is unavailable.


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## mr squeaks

Well, Jonathan, if you hope to divert PoopZilla from his amorous attentions to your person, I would strongly suggest you find a "new" mate as soon as possible...BEFORE he decides that he won't give you up!!

GOOD LUCK and, I have a feeling you are gonna need it!

Can't wait to see what happens!     

Shi
& Squeaks (who has no comment at this time...)


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## Skyeking

Although this thread is definitely "on topic" and I can appreciate the situation as I have several male pigeons, I think the sexual comments are not meant for a public forum, and we do have some youngsters that visit here. PLEASE keep that in mind.


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## JGregg

I just about fell out of my chair reading this thread soooo funny! I'm currently "mated" to 3 male pigeons. I don't think you have to invest in plush toys, my boys "enjoy" the merits of rolled up socks, shoes and appropriately sized fruit. I don't allow them to get fresh with me.


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## Margarret

I, too, am ROMALFO along with having empathy toward your "situation". My little Starling, Spreckles, has apparently matured in the last couple of weeks and has altered his usual behavior towards me. An inquiry on Starling talk got the response that he is engaging in courting behavior. I guess a lady Starling would be impressed by someone who puffs out it's feathers till it looks like a round ball, lowers it's wings and screams and shrieks while flapping hysterically.

Margaret


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## ryannon

Thank you all for your kind and often funny responses...it's good to know that I'm not alone in living what to 'the outside world' might seem like total madness  

In all seriousness, I have to say that since entering my life, Poopzilla is progressively opening new and unknown territory in my already long-standing affection for members of his species. 

I don't know if this strange and improbable alchemy of the heart is something common to all animals or is pigeon-specific: I suppose that only those who've experienced living with a variety of pets would be able to answer that question. 

But to reiterate: is there really something _special_ about pigeons that makes them so attaching to us, or is this 'specialness' found in any animal/companion which we become attached to?

I'd like to see a response on this from Phil - who has apparently an uncommon knowledge and empathy for our little friends - as well as many of the members here whose posts - when read between the lines - reveal their endless wonderment and gratitude for the gifts these companions keep giving us.


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## pdpbison

ryannon said:


> Thank you all for your kind and often funny responses...it's good to know that I'm not alone in living what to 'the outside world' might seem like total madness
> 
> In all seriousness, I have to say that since entering my life, Poopzilla is progressively opening new and unknown territory in my already long-standing affection for members of his species.



Hi ryannon, 


Just happenned to notice your thread back-at-the-top...so I stopped in to say 'Hello' and see how things are going...

Glad to hear they are going well, and, are somewhat wacky, as is the usual course of things with these little Harpys, of course...




> I don't know if this strange and improbable alchemy of the heart is something common to all animals or is pigeon-specific: I suppose that only those who've experienced living with a variety of pets would be able to answer that question.



As far as I can tell, it is to be expected for most Species of Creaturedom, when their members happen to live with humans, or, vice versa...or so long as there is kindness and gentleness from the humans, anyway..there will be natural and easy regards, affections, and some orders of communication and harmony...reciprocal accomidations...

And if one kindly raises the youngsters or orphan Babys of other Species, often this will be particularly so, and, reciprocally.

Pigeons are likely among the more amenible...

Too, if is only very recently in the course of human history, that most people were NOT living immediately 'with' other Animals of in-effect 'familial' or semi-domesticated Species...

And in many cases of this, I do mean in the same space literally...

Probably in ancient times, baby humans nursed on friendly 'family' Goats, Dogs, or other Mammals if the timing was right, simply as a casual matter of everyone being so used to eachother and accepting...and certainly such babys as they grew, routinely played with and were looked after by the various other Animals as were part of the family...

There is a great little Vidwo about a family in Asia whose little Boy has been growing up with a Python, where the Python was a tiny Baby at the same time he was, but now he is like 7 or something, and the Python is what, 18 feet long and about 12 inches around?


Python seems to love him, and he definitely loved the Python...and the boys mom and dad are totally easy and just accept the Python as part of the family...





Certainly even now one sees Cats 'adopting' abandonded or neglected Puppies, and Dogs doing likewise with abandonded or neglected Kittens...


There are known instances of the Emu and Ostrich adopting lost human tollders or very young children, and years later, these kids are discopvered, skinny, matter long hair, bellys full of tape worms, calloused feets, keen eyes, good runners of course...having lived for years beneath the care and kindness of these large Birds...where, they would otherwise have certainly perished...

One sees Cats or Dogs adopting Ducklings or other...or adopting Baby Possoms whose momma was Car-hit or other...so...it is in various ways, in all our 'Blood' to either do, or to have the potential for doing...or it is endemic for most Species to find conditions in which they accept other Species as friends or family.


This, for people,. to one extent or another, was the de-rigeur for hundreds of thousands of years, if not more...


And remains vestugual in the form of many people 'having' Dogs, or Cats, or...in some cases, 'Birds'...


Ungulates, while highly traditional, are logistically inconvenient for most urban situations, townhouses, appartments and so on, so...have fallen from fashion or favor...


...did you see that youtube Video about the Hippipotamous which these people had raised from a orphan Baby? It was very sweet...if I can find it, I will post it for you to see...

So...really, among ingenuous humans, this does seem to be a very Natural expression of our Humanity - to share Life with other Species, to include them kindly into our lives, and, to be surrogate parents for the lost or wayward Babys of them if need be should they be in need of it, and or in one way or another, to have 'familys' wich are composed of our own, and, other Species, and when possible, for all to share the same space in daily Life.





> But to reiterate: is there really something _special_ about pigeons that makes them so attaching to us, or is this 'specialness' found in any animal/companion which we become attached to?



Both...

If Pigeons were the size and weight of say, a Rhinosaurous, or even a large Ungulate such as a Bull or Cow, then things might be a little awkward at times ( and those Wing-Slaps could really send you far into next Week then!) ...so, likely their 'small' size is a plus...

They are of the gamut of extant Theropds you know...and many of their long-ago predecessors-ancestors were quite large ( 7 Tons or something for some of them, I think...).


The extinct 'Dodo Bird' was an order of Columbiform, and quite tame from the get go, being they were long accustomed to haveing no troubles from anyone, till people showed up...


The Dodo was a moderately 'hefty' fello, too...


I'd hate to be cleaning up after a bunch of them trotting around the house and so on...

I'd wear out that Snow Shovel on no time with that situation...





> I'd like to see a response on this from Phil - who has apparently an uncommon knowledge and empathy for our little friends - as well as many of the members here whose posts - when read between the lines - reveal their endless wonderment and gratitude for the gifts these companions keep giving us.



Thank you...


While 'Dove Zilla' ( a Dove ) and 'Butter Cup' ( a Cockateil ) each regard me as a somewhat casual 'mate' ( and no one else has been elected by either, yet...) this has been unusual for the situation here, where, for the various transient and also the long-term Pigeons anyway, they have plenty of eachother to choose from, and, they do choose, too...so most who are here any length of time, unless too young, do elect mates from the mileiu, and overall, they stay with them, too long after they are released, or, for whatever their time of stay here may be.


'Dove Zilla' likes laying next to my hand when my hand is on the Computer 'mouse', and he sort of preens my knuckles and so on, or just cuddles. 
Or, naps on my shoulder as I sit...and, usually sleeps next to my head on the pillow...

This is very sweet...


'Butter Cup' not long after I got her, got kind of wound up and made a little Nest next to my Computer, and layed several perfect little Eggs, and was expecting me to take my turns brooding them, which, since they were so close and all, I more or less did...

She also naps on my soulder, and likes to sleep mext to my head, but elects the other side from where Dove Zilla is...


Neither ever seems jealous of the other, which is nice of course...


And both every day enjoy various particular attentions and getting kisses on their little heads, more than the others do.

Really, most of the others, if I do scoop[ them up and kiss them on the head, have a reaction about like I used to when I was a kid and some frouncy older Aunt wanted to smootch me or tousel my hair...so, they basically seem to sort of just say, "Yuck!!!! Foooey!" and run off...


Lol...


Phil
l v


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## ryannon

Lovely and fascinating reply, Phil:

_"Too, if is only very recently in the course of human history, that most people were NOT living immediately 'with' other Animals of in-effect 'familial' or semi-domesticated Species..."._

Spot on. Absolutely true. And just one of about a zillion other things that **** Sapiens no longer do - after having done so for hundreds of centuries. We rarely realize how much of our collective past we've left behind and totally forgotten - which might explain some our present sense of disorientation and anomie. 

_"So...really, among ingenuous humans, this does seem to be a very Natural expression of our Humanity - to share Life with other Species, to include them kindly into our lives, and, to be surrogate parents for the lost or wayward Babys of them if need be should they be in need of it, and or in one way or another, to have 'families' which are composed of our own, and, other Species, and when possible, for all to share the same space in daily Life."_

And, as you've pointed out in your examples of animals 'adopting' humans, vice-versa.

All of which reminds me of an observation by one or another of the Classical Greek philosophers (either Plato or Socrates, I believe) to the effect that during a previous 'Golden Age' of Humanity, 'men and animals could communicate with one another' - which - despite the vagaries of translation and interpretation - I take to mean _'understand'_ one another.

After reflection, this is in line with Shamanic practices, animal totems and the relationship of Native Americans (as well as practically every so-called 'primitive' peoples) with the animals that populated their environment. Not to mention a wealth of folk-tales from around the world concerning privileged communication between men and animals. 

In this context - always so easy to ignore, dismiss or forget - your reference to the unfortunate Dodos may very well be prophetic: the next 'Dodo' on the list for a massive extinction event may very well be ourselves - if we're not a shade more conscious about where we've been, what our real heritage is, and the mess that many of us have made of it....


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## pdpbison

Hi ryannon, 


"I fought Poopzilla...and Poopzilla won..."


Yes..!

I know how it is...


Lol...


Oh, found the Hippo Video - 


"Jessica"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3NueKXS6dk




And the Child and the Python - 


http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/news/culture-places-news/cambodia-snake-apvin.html




Phil
l v


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## Matt D.

will this thread ever die?


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## ryannon

Matt D. said:


> will this thread ever die?


 
Really interesting input, Matt.

Change the channel when you don't like the program.

Or start your own thread instead of pooping in this one.


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## roxtar

This thread makes me uncomfortable.


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## ryannon

roxtar said:


> This thread makes me uncomfortable.



_So why are you looking at it? _

Permit me to let you and Matt in on a BIG secret: when a thread makes you uncomfortable, instead of whinging about it, _don't look at it._

Get it? 

_There are_ threads on this forum which I either don't pursue or even open, particularly when they deal with forms of cruelty shown to pigeons (or any other animals). 

Now that (I hope) you've understood the technique, let's cut to the chase: what is it about this thread that (Matt) _makes you want to see it dead_, and (Roxtar) _makes you uncomfortable?_ 

Have we (I'm not the only one posting in it) overstepped what you consider to be the limits of good taste?

Are there words or ideas you have difficulty understanding?

In Matt's case, perhaps Trees Grey was correct in saying that there are children reading this forum who could be shocked or otherwise upset by the sudden realization that _pigeons are not brought by storks._

As for the reason(s) for Roxtar's discomfort, I can only speculate. To the best of my knowledge, I'm certain that this thread contains no incitation to _undo_ anyone's mother - so it must be something else. 

What I do know from long experience as an active member of other forums is that there is always a small percentage of readers ready to find fault with almost _any_ post. Often this has less to do with the opinions and content of the post than of the (virtual) personality of the poster in relation to the very real personality of the complainer. On the Net, office politics becomes forum politics, with the danger of the most repressive, limiting elements gradually imposing their ideas of what everyone else is allowed or not allowed to see. 

If such is the case here, then I'm in the wrong place. I've already read _The Name of the Rose_ and seen the movie: I don't need to be on the wrong end of a shabby attempt at its remake on an Internet forum. 

As the more attentive members might have noticed, I've enlarged the scope of this discussion from Matt's _death-wish_ and Roxtar's _discomfort_ to the subject of what may or may not be posted on this forum by its members.

I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the parameters, but perhaps I'm mistaken. 

To that end, I'd appreciate some input by one or more of the moderators as to how this thread violates the terms I agreed to when becoming a member of this forum - _if indeed it does._

In the event that it does not, I'd like to extend my heartfelt invitation to those who are not happy with its content to _not look at it_ and to leave those of us who do find it interesting, in peace. 

You can then use the considerable energy you'll save to either contribute to other threads or start your own - which presumably will be more to your taste.


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## Whitefeather

ryannon said:


> * To that end, *I'd appreciate some input by one or more of the moderators as to how this thread violates the terms I agreed to when becoming a member of this forum - if indeed it does.*
> 
> ** *In Matt's case, perhaps Trees Grey was correct in saying that there are children reading this forum who could be shocked or otherwise upset by the sudden realization that pigeons are not brought by storks.*


* Here's my input. 

You are exactly right when you suggest that if someone doesn't agree with the contents of a post, then they certainly have the option *not* to read it.

With regard to any violation of the terms of this board, the following was taken, in part, from the Policies and Terms of Use. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7007

_*You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy or otherwise violative of any law.*_

Although the following examples were intended to be lighthearted, they do carry a sexually oriented tone.

_jumping my bones_ every time he gets a chance

The routine is always the same: a perfunctory courting dance, a _few grunts, and then BANG!_ - _right onto any part of me that's horizontal_

I'd feel guilty of depriving him of _getting off._

Actually, what I meant to say was that I'd feel guilty about preventing him from _getting his jollies_

He's just starting out...we haven't got to the big _wet spot stage_ yet


** This has nothing to do with children realizing pigeons aren't brought by storks.  

Cindy

I do appreciate you changing the title.


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## Dezirrae

While I don't want to wander too far from the topic of the original post, I would like to offer an opinion (for whatever it's worth). Personally, I find this thread hysterical! And anything that can give me a chance to laugh as a break from hearing about the rest of the "madness" that goes on in this world is great - from my perspective. While I understand the "sexually oriented tone" some of the commentary boarders on , I truly don't believe it's anything that kids would find surprising... and especially if they are raising pigeons - they likely empathize with the situation and may have even experienced it themselves. I do like to see posts remain "tastefull" and, for the most part, I think Ryan has accomplished that. 

With that said, I would like to know the solution you wind up with Ryan. I only have two female doves right now... but who knows what the future may bring.

And, thanks for giving me a chance to LOL


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Since you asked ryannon,

.....I don't know if it violates the rules of this forum....I just think it violates the rules of good taste....but in today's world, there are few rules requiring people to demonstrate good taste or breeding (no pun intended)....if someone has to ask, then it's a good bet they have no idea why some consider these comments crude and lacking class....because they lack these qualities, and you further demonstrate that by becoming aggressive towards those who point out this deficiency. So this is my take anyway since you asked....


"jumping my bones every time he gets a chance...The routine is always the same: a perfunctory courting dance, a few grunts, and then BANG! - right onto any part of me that's horizontal....I'd feel guilty of depriving him of getting off....Actually, what I meant to say was that I'd feel guilty about preventing him from getting his jollies...He's just starting out...we haven't got to the big wet spot stage yet"


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## sabina

Jonathan,
I'm not a moderator but I just want to say I also thought this thread was hilarious. Yes sexually-oriented...but not offensive or lacking "class" or "breeding." Sexually-oriented in a JOKING FUNNY way. I also agree that people who find it distasteful certainly have no obligation to read it. In terms of kids, if they are kids who are around animals, they do witness mating behavior. I don't think they'd learn anything here that they didn't already know.
My two cents...


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## Matt D.

I was wondering how you all could continue to see humor in something as infantile as this... If you can find a 14 year old that thinks a stork brings babies... well there either retarted or extremely sheltered. I have been pairing up pigeons scince I was 3. This is nothing new to me, I was wondering what type of gratification you get from talking about _*"this"*_?


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## ryannon

Given that I didn't think that a discussion of the mating habits of pigeons would be prohibited on this forum, the terms I used to describe PoopZilla's behavoir seemed both accurate and appropriate to me - at least before I understood that they could be considered distasteful by some readers.

As for the subject itself, it should be clear to anyone who's ever actually lived with a pigeon, that what I've described is real: it actually happens, and since it was the first time it ever happened to me, it took me by surprise. I was not inventing a story to titillate (this is a non-sexual word, by the way) or otherwise pander to anyone's prurient interests.

It was a real post, describing a real situation, using expressions which I would not have imagined as being objectionable - even if they lacked the precision and 'neutrality' of a purely clinical description. 

Lesson learned: in the future, I'll be _a lot more careful_ about what I say here, and how I say it.

My apologies to those whose feathers have been ruffled by the presence of sexuallly-oriented ideas and language in my description of Mr. PoopZilla's reproductive instincts and behavoir. If there seems to be a contradiction in terms there, it's because there is. But in the interests of peace on the forum, I'll leave it at that.

I would like to add his apologies as well, _but it appears that he can't quite understand what all the fuss is about._

And I don't have the heart to try to explain it to him.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Matt D. said:


> I was wondering how you all could continue to see humor in something as infantile as this...?


Could be Matt, that you are more mature then some of the "adults"...which leads me to think there is hope for this world yet............thank you for setting a good example.


----------



## Charis

Matt...It's ryannon's style of writing and sense of humor that makes it so funny to many of us. Probably more funny to those of us that have a house pigeons that for lack of options has chosen a human for a mate or in this case... a human foot.


----------



## ryannon

Matt D. said:


> I was wondering how you all could continue to see humor in something as infantile as this... If you can find a 14 year old that thinks a stork brings babies... well there either retarted or extremely sheltered. I have been pairing up pigeons scince I was 3. This is nothing new to me, I was wondering what type of gratification you get from talking about _*"this"*_?



Actually, I was talking about "*that*", not "*this*".

But you don't seem to get _that_, so _this_ idiotic exchange is the result.

Too bad (meaning 'it's a pity').


----------



## Matt D.

Oh, What a waste of time this is, you are right. Didn't realize I was arguing with a frenchman.


----------



## ryannon

Matt D. said:


> Oh, What a waste of time this is, you are right. Didn't realize I was arguing with a frenchman.



Capital letters for nationalities, Matt.

And I'm not French.


----------



## Matt D.

Im just going to stop now and be the bigger person. This is not the purpose of pigeon talk to take personal attacks at each other. We are here because we obviously both love pigeons. So lets stop being idiots and go back to doing what we need to be doing. So you can continue to fight with me but I will be ignoring this thread.


----------



## ryannon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> _Since you asked ryannon,
> 
> .....I don't know if it violates the rules of this forum....I just think it violates the rules of good taste....but in today's world, there are few rules requiring people to demonstrate good taste or breeding (no pun intended)....if someone has to ask, then it's a good bet they have no idea why some consider these comments crude and lacking class....because they lack these qualities, and you further demonstrate that by becoming aggressive towards those who point out this deficiency. So this is my take anyway since you asked...._
> 
> 
> I asked for your opinion as to the forum rules, not your own projections concerning what you imagine to be my background and breeding. As for the question of taste, it's clear that you've little tolerance for any that's not similar to your own. Your whole _ad hominem _ attack is neatly tied up by a double-bind at the end: any attempt to justify my position or defend myself is seen as an _agressive reaction_.
> 
> Nice try, but hardly credible.


----------



## KIPPY

Just out of curiosity, why hasn't this thread been closed?


I can trash talk just as good as the next guy nothing shocks me but there's a time and place for everything. Pigeons.com is a public forum with minors on site if you feel a strange need to get into details about your pigeons love life try using the star key. I'm sure we can figure it out.


----------



## ryannon

It's strange that out of the hundreds of words and dozens of ideas that have been expressed in this thread, a few people can see no further than what they deem to be a handful of offensive phrases.  

Not only that, but they seem to have failed to notice the the subject of the thread _has totally changed _ into an innocuous discussion which has nothing to do with the initial topic. A rather odd moment to let your feelings be known, but I suppose the pressure has been building up....  

'Trash-talk' indeed: perhaps it's time to get your own minds out of the gutter and let those of us who want to communicate peacefully, do so - in peace, within the boundaries of the forum rules, and without having to carry the burden of your somewhat limited conceptions of life and language.  


Have a nice one, and thanks for your input.


----------



## vbarrett

ryannon said:


> 'Trash-talk' indeed: perhaps it's time to get your own minds out of the gutter and let those of us who want to communicate peacefully, do so - in peace, and without the burden of your somewhat limited conception of life and language.


Wow, my first read thread on this forum and it's ending full of acrimony. And for what? A bit of pigeon insides-outsides. 

Have we forgotten the age-old saying, "*the birds* and the bees?" Don't let Seinfeld have the last word! (Again)

Ryanon, to get this thread back on track, may I suggest whatever is the pigeon equivalent of the Japanese ladies' night succour:

*The Boyfriend Pillow*










Not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## KIPPY

Ryannon,

You can get you and your pigeon one of those "The Boyfriend Pillow". Maybe you can find one with feet. 
You might want to get some scotchgaurd.


----------



## ryannon

_Feel the love..._

Sigh.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi ryannon, 



Didja have a chance to see the little Videos on 'Jessica' and, the 'Python'? ( I posted some little ways back...)


Or, as they used to say in the old 'Westerns' -

"Meanwhile...back-at-the-Ranch..."



This is a good Thread...and it has good spin offs...and it is fun and silly and true.

Like anything in Life, it may not be for everyone...

And thats fine...of course...


Best wishes...


Phil
l v


----------



## ryannon

Hey Phil,

Those vids are extraordinary: Hippo love is....well, just overwhelming. 

The python somewhat less so: I'm not sure I'd want that fellow crawling around my place - at least with the hippo, you can hear him coming  

But the affection that _dangerous_ animals can show to humans is a never-ending source of amazement to me: you can really feel that 'little' hippo's heart going out to his human friends - and the images of him bunking out under the blanket are too touching...

I once saw something similar concerning some native Africans who had adopted a baby hippo - after they had hunted and killed its mother, unfortunately. The little baby was as affectionate as a puppy, and the African guys were playing with it exactly as if it were....before having it for the next day's lunch, I fear.

Our generation may be nearly the last to see elephants, hippos, rhinos and the big cats outside of a zoo - or possibly anywhere at all: they're going fast. 

Which of us finishes first is an interesting question: humans are foolish to imagine that we're not all in the same boat, so to speak, and that what we do unto others - animals included - won't come back on us like a boomerang.

Nice to hear from you at this particular moment, and take care yourself: I've heard that Vegas can be a tough room as well.  


Best,


Jonathan and PoopZilla


----------



## pdpbison

Hi J & P, 



Well...bear in mind there is quite a range of possibilitys amid individual Reptiles, as for their sense of who is who, who is 'them' who is part-of-them viscerally...as in this instance, the Python was raised from a little Baby in that home, and he wanted to BE in that home and among that family...the father even had put it 'back' into the Jungle several times, and it kept coming back...so, the Python chose them...

Still, if one is in our position, it does seem a little iffy on the nerves...since we are approaching it 'cold' as it were, where for them it is part of a continuity.



'Jessica', once she is older, and mates, and has a Baby of her own...

I would not want to be a 'stranger' walking up, when her and her Baby are lolling in the Sunshine or grazing Dog Kibble or as may be...


Oh boy...you'd better be a very agile sprinter if you did..!


But, she is part of the 'pod' which consists of the people, the Dogs and so on, so I am certain she will be fine for them to play with the Baby and watch the Baby and so on, since it is all their 'Baby' in effect...

As well as she is a member of the Hippo Pod down River, and she'd introduce her Baby to them in due course too...


Anyone else, look out..!



You know, like if you ever see any Bear Cubs, it is already too late..!

And you'd better high tail it out of there, and fast...


Phil
l v


----------



## ryannon

Little chance of encountering bear cubs in Paris, although I do know a guy in Alaska (member on another forum) who's very much into the great outdoors and knows a lot about what walks around on four feet up there...his advice is to avoid anything bear, whether it be cub or adult.

Speaking of Las Vegas, there's the story of poor Sigmund (or was it Roy?) and the (ex)-best friend albino lion that turned on him after twenty or so years of purring at his feet like a kitten.

Only shows that you can never take these guys for granted (same as people)...

I don't know if you ever get out of town, or what type of fauna you can encounter in the high country of Nevada (I presume that there's a High Country in Nevada, as there is in New Mexico)...or in the deserts...or maybe right in town, after all.

Wasn't there a story about coyotes wandering through the streets from time to time? Or was it wolves...or bears....or....?

I've been meaning to ask you a question, Phil, and I hope you'll forgive me for broaching it in public: I read a recent book about pigeons (I've forgotten the title, but many people here have certainly read it - it got excellent reviews and was largely pigeon-friendly) but I do remember that one the people the author interviewed was this guy living...was it in Las Vegas?...with a house full of pigeons....a kind of Extreme Pigeon Freak....who left the author, who had already met his share, sort of, well, _shaken_ by the experience...   

Anyway, was this guy _you?_ 

Whether it was or wasn't doesn't have much importance to me, but my mind keeps straying back to the book, telling me that there's a connection....

(Do you think that someone is going to complain about this thread having gone _off topic?_)  


Best,


Jonathan


----------



## pdpbison

ryannon said:


> Little chance of encountering bear cubs in Paris, although I do know a guy in Alaska (member on another forum) who's very much into the great outdoors and knows a lot about what walks around on four feet up there...his advice is to avoid anything bear, whether it be cub or adult.


Hi Jonathan, 

This seems to be the consensus about Bears...and especially so, when Momma-and-Cubs are concerned...

Moose also, all in all...similarly...Moose will attack Dogs and Dog Sleds, imagining them to be 'Wolves', with people geting knocked caboose-over-teakettle of course in the frackas...as well as that Moose can take offense to being pestered or starteled or surprised, of course...anyway, Moose are considered very 'dangerous' Creatures to be in the proximity of...



> Speaking of Las Vegas, there's the story of poor Sigmund (or was it Roy?) and the (ex)-best friend albino lion that turned on him after twenty or so years of purring at his feet like a kitten.
> 
> Only shows that you can never take these guys for granted (same as people)...
> 
> 
> Seigfreid ( and Roy ) ...
> 
> 
> I did not personally like these guys...I had met them, been in their Home, this from my days of being a Technical Carpenter, and some Interior Designer schmuck wanted me to come over and look at some prospective projects/work...
> 
> But, far as I know, they were very good to, and good with their Big Cats.
> 
> 
> Now, what I heard had happenned was that some fat women in the front rows wearing wierd Hats were sort of moving around and waving or something, half standing to wave, the young White Tiger saw them, looked hard, and decided they were a threat...
> 
> The Cat's reaction was to get Seigfreid the heck out of there, and Seigfreid was not quick enough on the uptake, so the Cat tried to carry him off, ( and did cary him off ) as it would carry a Tiger 'Cub', by the Neck...by the extra skin of the Neck...only poor Seigfried ( who likely weighed 140 pounds soaking wet ) did not have much for extra skin on his neck, and, the Cat's Eye-Teeth did not entirely manage to grasp his neck properly anyway, and one of the Teeth punched the guys skull, so...
> 
> Seigfried got hurt...
> 
> Or was it 'Roy'???
> 
> Whichever one it was...
> 
> 
> But, the long and short of it was, as I heard it, the insider dope supposedly, as it were...was that the Cat being young, inexperienced, naive and BIG, was none the less trying to protect Seigfried, did not know quite what to do, and it just went badly.
> 
> In this regard, they were lucky the Cat did not instead launch into the Audience and ravage or maul the Women in the 'Hats' who had caused the alarm or startle...
> 
> Not saying that large Animanls should be taken with complaisency or naive optimism...but, it is not clear that this instance was other than the Cat meaning well, but not knowing how to deal with the situation better.
> 
> I'd feel safer, myself...with a Hippo like 'Jessica' ( so long as I was introduced by her family ) than I would being around a Big Cat...especially if no one else was around.
> 
> One thing is sure far as I know - if any Cat, BIG or small, is doing something you want to see cease...spray or splash Water on them...and generally they will find their concentration broken, and leave off.
> 
> There was a deal not long ago of a Lion, a youngish one, 2/3rds full grown or so, grabbed some idiot in a Zoo...softly mauled the guy pretty good, the guy was in the Lion's Cage...others came up yelling and waving arms and so on ( what good does that ever do? ) and finally they shot the poor thing a lot of times, and got the guy back out.
> 
> 
> And I thought ( there is a video of it ) sheeeeeesh, these idiots, all they had to do was keep calm, act bored, show some understanding, and if the Cat was not willing to let go of the guy, then just splash a Bucket of Water on the Cat, and my bet? He'd have let go and walked away...
> 
> 
> Oh well...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you ever get out of town, or what type of fauna you can encounter in the high country of Nevada (I presume that there's a High Country in Nevada, as there is in New Mexico)...or in the deserts...or maybe right in town, after all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anymore I am a 'Barnacle'...I just Work in my Workshop, and, hardly ever go anywhere but the Grocery Store, Post Office, 7-11...
> 
> 
> So, I pretty well only see those sorts of Creatures who are here downtown, or, who live here in this space, or who visit...
> 
> So, Pigeons...some Doves, some other sorts of Birdsnow and then...some several orders of Spiders ( Black Widows, Cellar Spiders, and some few others I do nto know the names of ), Crickets, Roaches, Ants...some feral Cats...Mice...street-people...sometimes a customer comes by to visit or commission something...sometimes a friend or business acquaintance comes over...
> 
> 
> Thats about it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't there a story about coyotes wandering through the streets from time to time? Or was it wolves...or bears....or....?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not that I know of...
> 
> 'Crack *****s' and Drunks wander the streets, around this neighborhood anyway...mental deficients, people off their meds...people who are between jail stints...
> 
> 
> Some of the Street People are okay fellows...decent men, usually with drug or alcohol problems, but alright otherwise, or when sober...
> 
> 
> On the far outskirts of Town one might see Coyotes sometimes...as with Rabbits, Tortoises...Deer maybe...Sidewinders or Rattle Snakes...
> 
> 
> Not in town...or, not anymore.
> 
> Probably up till the 1950s or early 1960s, one would have seen these closer to town, or sort of in town, the town was so much smaller and ragged on the edges then...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been meaning to ask you a question, Phil, and I hope you'll forgive me for broaching it in public: I read a recent book about pigeons (I've forgotten the title, but many people here have certainly read it - it got excellent reviews and was largely pigeon-friendly) but I do remember that one the people the author interviewed was this guy living...was it in Las Vegas?...with a house full of pigeons....a kind of Extreme Pigeon Freak....who left the author, who had already met his share, sort of, well, _shaken_ by the experience...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huh...
> 
> 
> Sounds interesting..!
> 
> 
> If you can narrow down where I might read this, let me know?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, was this guy _you?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...or at least, I do not recall ever meeting anyone or having one over, who was writing a Book about Pigeons...
> 
> 
> But the scene here could be certainly 'different' for most people.
> 
> 
> Though people I have had over, soon found it charming and seemed easy with it...just not something they were used to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whether it was or wasn't doesn't have much importance to me, but my mind keeps straying back to the book, telling me that there's a connection....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let me know the source of the mention...the Book title, or as may be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Do you think that someone is going to complain about this thread having gone _off topic?_)
> 
> 
> 
> I think we shook 'em off by now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So...Paris?
> 
> 
> What you doin' there?
> 
> 
> And, are you going to gat a Pigeon Pal for Poopzilla then? ( a Hen, ideally? )
> 
> 
> 
> Nice little non-releaseable French Hen..? ( or you could import an English or German one, I s'pose...)
> 
> If she was a honest to goodness French Hen, she could wear some 'French Maid' outfits now and then...that oughta get 'im I recon..! he'd forget about your 'feet' in a Heartbeat...!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## sabina

hey you two,

the book is Pigeons by Andrew Blechman.

a coyote that was wandering around NYC was captured last year, and then I think died shortly after: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/22/nyc.coyote/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E3D91230F932A35757C0A9609C8B63

glad to see a cease-fire, or at least, a real conversation going again... i love this thread (minus the naysayers that is)

sabina


----------



## Maggie-NC

vbarrett said:


> Wow, my first read thread on this forum and it's ending full of acrimony. And for what? A bit of pigeon insides-outsides.
> 
> Have we forgotten the age-old saying, "*the birds* and the bees?" Don't let Seinfeld have the last word! (Again)
> 
> Ryanon, to get this thread back on track, may I suggest whatever is the pigeon equivalent of the Japanese ladies' night succour:
> 
> *The Boyfriend Pillow*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Hi Victoria and welcome to the forum.

Acrimony on this site is truly a rarity but it does happen as it does on many sites when you have members of diverse backgrounds and personalities, so don't let this particular thread turn you off from the forum as a whole.

Personally, I have enjoyed the thread. But hey, I'm the member who has posted a game that turned out to have nudity also in the link....course, I immediately deleted the link when I found out, but the game was great!  

I wasn't crazy about the original title of the thread and I'm glad that was changed. I doubt many of the very young people on this forum have paid much attention to the "innuendos" (like Kippy's "scotchguard" comment which I thought was hilarious) and those children, or teenagers, who did pay attention have probably been around pigeons long enough to understand exactly what was being said because they have seen it themselves.


----------



## ryannon

Thanks for reminding me of the author, Sabina!

A description can be found on his website:

http://www.andrewblechman.com/

@phil:

I actually have it (somewhere) and would be happy to send it over to you - I don't believe in holding on to books; it's better when they're shared. In turn, you could pass it on to a forum member who hasn't read it, and so on...

And:

Your explanation of the lion's behavoir made so much sense that it was a pleasure to read: I had the impression of finally reading something _intelligent_ concerning that event - instead of the usual idiocies that were printed or broadcast via the media...

That might also explain the reason why Sigmund (or was it Roy?) refused to have the animal put down.

I'll fill you in on my Paris existence some other time; the good news here is that little Poopzilla is gaining some motor control - meaning the ability to get off the ground and not come back down on his head - practically centimeter by centimeter...

I've been playing with him as much as possible in the hopes that contact and stimuli would serve as a sort of physical therapy which might aid his damaged neurons and nerves to reconnect. Wishful and naive thinking perhaps, but I sometimes feel such a current of positive energy between us that I can't help imagining that something good will eventually come of it.

In the last few days, he's been able to increase his jumping/wing flapping abilities to the point of making it up to a natural perch just at window-level, from which he can observe and communicate with the ferals who come and go on the windowsill outside. This is a _huge_ event for the both of us, and the first time he's been able to observe the outside world on his own.

I would be so happy to see this guy take to the air and fly someday - not the least because I could finally live in a guano-free environment and be able to invite people over again. Paradoxically, in the short period that he's been with me, I've realized _that I'm not really interested in having people over that much_...Poopzilla's arrival in my life seems to have been the catalyst for a number of changes and re-evaluations of what and who is really important.

The little guy gives me as much back as I give him - and perhaps more - in truth, I'm not really sure who is taking care of who here.

I'm certain that many other members will recognize themselves in this strange dynamic... I've heard it said that birds are mediators between heaven and earth - between the sky and where we are. 

It's a nice thought, and I'll leave you and the other readers with it...


----------



## nbdyuknow

Speaking of "guano free," you might want to consider getting Poopzilla some PGWear. I have a "companion pigeon" I didn't expect either, and I was faced with a similar dilemma in wanting my pigeon--Sophie--to have time out of her home without having everything covered in her little gifts. For a long time, I made do with two rolls of paper towels always at the ready, but then I got the PGWear, and I have to say (as I have said several times before) it has made ALL THE DIFFERENCE in maximizing our ability to interact and really explore the human/pigeon bond. I have a few more updates about Sophie I will post soon, but I would urge you to consider, at least for the time your pigeon will be "house bound" utilizing the option of PGWear. 

Best,

Bill B.


----------



## pdpbison

sabina said:


> hey you two,
> 
> the book is Pigeons by Andrew Blechman.
> 
> a coyote that was wandering around NYC was captured last year, and then I think died shortly after: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/22/nyc.coyote/
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E3D91230F932A35757C0A9609C8B63
> 
> glad to see a cease-fire, or at least, a real conversation going again... i love this thread (minus the naysayers that is)
> 
> sabina




Hi sabina, 


Thank you...


I will look for the Book...


Wow, I had no idea thee were Coyotes in or close to NYC..!

Poor 'Hal'...kinda seems like he had too much of being pestered and man-handled...that or, the Tranquilizer dart's Needle may have punctured a major blood vessel...


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison

Hi ryannon, 



The Guano here enjoys what for most people, would be some unexpected continuitys or outcomes. For one thing, it gives the Mice and Ants something to eat, besides the odd Seeds they find or carry off, or other sundrys they catch or find.

Last night, a Mouse not a foot away from my keyboard, leaning back on his haunches, was placidly munching a pretty large fresh Pigeon-poop he had found, which he was holding in both hands like it was a slice of Watermellon.


I said to him "Mr. or Miss Mouse - your meal there seems just-a-little uncouth to me..!" 


Lol...


They seemed to be enjoying it, and merely paused a moment to look at me, wondering what I was going on about now...when I spoke some more, they sveltly moved back and semi-hid from me, concerned I might be planning to challenge them for their prize.

The Mice here are pretty easy going. I set up the 'Live Trap' now and then and catch some to turn loose at the Park. They are small Field Mice ( as I call them anyway ) grey-brown in color, and avid Hunters of Roaches and Crickets, too.


Feral Cats catch and eat the Mice out in the Workshop...Mice catch and eat the Roaches and Crickets...

Spiders catch and eat the Ants which fall into their Webs...

Ants eat any deceased Roaches or Crickets they find...

Not a bad little eco-system here all tolled...

But overall, most of the Mice seem wiling to let me pretend 'peck' at Seeds an inch from their grazings, or, even to let me softly pet their shoulders or back or ribs, as long as I move slowly.

If they have a Bug or Poop they found, they are more guarded, suspicious I might be interested to steal their find from them, so they tend to get shy if they have a 'catch' of some kind...usually...

Sometimes there will be two or three with their little rumps in the air, heads and shoulders in a small seed Bowl on the desk...and I can join them with my finger in the bowl, pretend pecking, and it is fine with them...but usually I gently shoo them out since the Seeds are supposed to be for the Doves, and not them.


They are friendly Mice and radiantly healthy, too...their little coats just 'glow'..!

I would prefer NOT to have any Mice here, they are destructive and worrysome in various ways, but my best efforts to catch them all have never proved successful, so, I just catch some now and then, and it never ends...

The Ants similarly, reduce to nothing the Guano they find or elect, and, are flourishing now, where for years they barely got by.

Crickets also eat the Guano, and, small Seeds...also...lots of Crickets here, plump, vivid, and quite happy...

So, between us all, it gets dealt with...and of course Mr. Broom and Miss Mop ( what is this, some Kids tee vee show??? Lol...) do their respective Dance routines too.


Now...remind me please - 


Poopzilla...he is thought to have had the PMV? Or...? 


Anyway, whether it were PMV ( or PPMV or something else ) or an injury from some sort of blunt trauma...if you are not already, you might do well to augment his diet with some various Natural suppliments for enhancing his intake of Antioxidants, and various Vitamines and Minerals.

Are his reflexes equal bilaterally?

Or is one side less able?


It certainly can be a long slow road for them to gain whatever state of Neurological improves that they can or will...so I figure, may as well allow them whatever advantage we can Nutritionally.


All tolled, what is his diet presently?

And, is there a way ( obviously, it is Winter now in your region, and likely cold out, but ) for him to get direct, unfiltered Sunshine now and then? As much as possible even?


Phil
l v


----------



## vbarrett

Lady Tarheel said:


> Hi Victoria and welcome to the forum.


Thank you for the warm welcome, Lady T. I am much obliged. 



> Acrimony on this site is truly a rarity but it does happen as it does on many sites when you have members of diverse backgrounds and personalities, so don't let this particular thread turn you off from the forum as a whole.


Well, I've been reading a few threads and that is certainly true.

I myself am British, but have emigrated to America going on a decade now. I too come from a diverse, perhaps even unusual background but thankfully, there are a lot of TCK* around these days.

*TCK: Third Culture Kids, handy term, but sometimes not understood!



> Personally, I have enjoyed the thread. But hey, I'm the member who has posted a game that turned out to have nudity also in the link....course, I immediately deleted the link when I found out, but the game was great!


I am pudique, as the French say, so not given to a lot of sexual expressions. However, surely when pigeons are being discussed, it's on topic, and educational.



> I wasn't crazy about the original title of the thread and I'm glad that was changed.


Didn't see that.



> I doubt many of the very young people on this forum have paid much attention to the "innuendos" (like Kippy's "scotchguard" comment which I thought was hilarious)


I thought of making an allusion to the fact that the phrase reminded me of penis gourd (I had even googled a photo), but demurred as it might seem odd in my first postings here.

But just so that you know. 



> and those children, or teenagers, who did pay attention have probably been around pigeons long enough to understand exactly what was being said because they have seen it themselves.


Quite so, Lady Tarheel. Coarseness, I'm sure we can all recall, is part and parcel of being a child.

It's the irreverence of children that perhaps attracts people to pigeons. I love it.


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## ryannon

pdpbison said:


> Hi ryannon,
> Now...remind me please -
> 
> Poopzilla...he is thought to have had the PMV? Or...?
> 
> Anyway, whether it were PMV ( or PPMV or something else ) or an injury from some sort of blunt trauma...if you are not already, you might do well to augment his diet with some various Natural suppliments for enhancing his intake of Antioxidants, and various Vitamines and Minerals.
> 
> Are his reflexes equal bilaterally?
> 
> Or is one side less able?
> 
> It certainly can be a long slow road for them to gain whatever state of Neurological improves that they can or will...so I figure, may as well allow them whatever advantage we can Nutritionally.
> 
> All tolled, what is his diet presently?
> 
> And, is there a way ( obviously, it is Winter now in your region, and likely cold out, but ) for him to get direct, unfiltered Sunshine now and then? As much as possible even?
> 
> Phil
> l v



Phil, to try to answer, I've always thought it was PMV: I found him as a squeaker, standing against a building in a pedestrian street, with that special _look_ they have on their mugs when they know that there are no more options for survival. After a few days at home, I began to notice that he would run around in circles; close up, I could see a constant and very fine trembling of the head; as time passed, his efforts to take off resulted in backwards flying and helicopter spins and crashes. He would 'toss' larger seeds.... In short, all the symptoms. That was a little more than six months ago.

Nutrition _does_ seem to play an important role: the better it gets, the better he seems to get. At present, along with a decent grade of grit, he's receiving a standard bagged mix of small grains for doves and pigeons; recently, I started experimenting with adding small green lentils and very small enriched fresh-egg pasta noodles for human-type beings(!). Several months ago, I crushed a big U.S. supervitamin pill into fine powder and mixed it into the big jar I keep his seeds in. In other words, I'm playing it pretty much by ear - and by the pitifully limited selection of pigeon products that can be found in Paris. The sunlight he gets will increase with his new-found ability to place himself next to the window...

As for the rest, I've looked through mail-order lists from specialized supply sources in places like Belgium (the best bet for ordering and receiving products here in France) and quite frankly, I wouldn't know where to start.

I probably put more thought into what he's being nourished with than with my own; his weight and size seem right to me; we get along well  and he's plenty sassy and chipper - full of all the curiosity and mischief that I've learned to associate with healthy birds.

As for the remaining PMV symptoms, the compulsive 'running around in circles' syndrome is gradually ceasing; he usually tries to take off several times a day, but his co-ordination is still off: his navigation system is obviously not hitting on all cylinders.

Improvement is nevertheless small, regular and incremental: he's learned to gracefully glide down from my bed to the floor instead of frantically flapping his wings and landing on his head or back; as I mentioned above, today he finally was able to co-ordinate a veritcal hop and wing-flap to reach an interior ledge next to a window; his range of short successful flights down from to the floor from varying heights is increasing. 

His favorite activity when not displaying forms of affection which must best remain unmentioned, is biting my hand and fingers like a total maniac - behavior which can be immediately neutralized by grabbing his beak between thumb and forefinger and rhymically squeezing it to reproduce squeakerhood memories of being nursed by his parents: his eyes close in total bliss while he hunkers down, grunting like a happy little piglet and swallowing large quantities of the imaginary milk of pigeon parent-kindness.

In between all this, I scritch his head, caress his neck, tickle him under his wings, gently pull his tail feathers when he turns his back on me, talk to him, tease him - _and do my best to let him know that I'm there for him._

It's a pretty satisfying relationship we've worked out.

Something tells me that he is going to get better - perhaps much better, and perhaps even well enough to someday take off and join the pigeon acquaintances that he's progressively making now that he can interact with them from his side of the window.

Whew.

That seemed like a long post.


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## Maggie-NC

Jonathan, that was a lovely post. I'm really glad PoopZilla is improving. It only takes time and TLC 

A few years ago, we got in 6 or more pigeons, all with PMV in varying stages of the disease. One in particular, that we called Juliette, had a mild case but could not fly for months. We kept all of them in the house and would regularly let them out to exercise. One day, Juliette discovered she could fly up to a table and I think she was as surprised as we were. She gradually was able to take off, fly around the room and land just like any pigeon.

Stress can cause them to revert to the PMV symptoms. When we finally put Juliette in our aviary, her symptoms came back, only not as severe and not as long lasting. Later on, she was given to a friend who has a larger aviary with other handicapped pigeons. At least, if the PMV reoccurred from time to time she was in a safe environment.


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## mr squeaks

GOOD HEAVENS!!! Be away for over 24 hours and..... 

As President of the NMB, I just have to put in my 2 cents and let the chips fall where they may.

Generally speaking, there are times when I will follow "discretion is the better part of valor" and keep my post shut. However, I do have a few comments to make...

First - maybe my age(?) - I thought this post and all other posts started by Jonathan were/are hysterical! I believe in laughter. I also realize than not everyone would share my opinion regarding certain subjects and discussions. So be it. AND, as has been stated before, we are a diverse group - some more conservative than others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion(s) and, after stating their positions, have choices: further discussion(s), ignore, etc.

I also think that _intent_ can be an important issue. Those who deliberately and knowingly start a thread/discussion/post with the intent to cause trouble is one thing. Those who say things that were not _intentionally_ intended to provoke is something else. 

Yes, some phrases are provacative and can "insult/bother" others...again, depends on how one "takes" the words. To sum up, I again say,

_" I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard in not what I meant."_

Being able to communicate "exactly" what we mean can be very difficult via the written word. And, I also know that certain ways of phrasing are not to everyone's "liking"...but, sometimes, a certain phrase can save a LOT of beating around the bush, so to speak.  And, finally, oh yes, I am WELL AWARE of the term "good taste." 

OK, enuf of that...

*ROY* was the one who was dragged by the tiger off stage and I agree with what he said...the tiger meant him no harm. I'm glad the tiger wasn't destroyed! 

Wow, Phil, you have quite an ecosystem there! Few are able to live in harmony with non-humans as you do. Don't I wish ALL of humanity had the same kind of attitude! 

Yes, Andrew B. and his Pigeon book was quite fascinating. He did have parts that were heartbreaking and will always haunt me. I, for one, simply cannot understand why some humans have so little empathy for the animals and birds who share our world! 

I have read on this site that PMV pijies can recover but rarely do their owners release them for reasons already mentioned.

Jonathan, sunlight through a window is not the same as _direct_ sunlight, so members have brought to our attention in the past.

I am SO glad this thread has not been closed! I have and am continuing to enjoy and ponder the posts.

AND, I will look forward to future updates about PoopZilla, the Wonder Pigeon. Jonathan, you have done an amazing job in helping PoopZilla recover and finding that , YES, LIFE IS WORTH LIVING! 

Finally, I suppose I related more to what Jonathan orginally posted than most just because I live with one pigeon AND a male at that! I understand, commiserate AND empathize!

Shi


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## Margarret

I, too, have been enjoying this thread. Jonathan, I have the book, and when you inquired about Phil possibly being one of the persons in the book, I had to look back through it.(I'm a nosey member after all) I think you may be referring to Dave Roth of Phoenix, Arizona. He has been a real mover and shaker of pigeon welfare and operates the Urban Wildlife Society an online organization which is, as far as I can tell, a one man operation.http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/UWS/
I got this from the book and his site looks chock full of useful stuff about pigeons. 

I'm so glad to hear about Poopzilla's improvement.

Margaret


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## ryannon

Thank you for all the info and your concern for Poopzilla, Lady Tarheel, Shi and Margarret  

In response to some of the points raised:

Sunlight - I don't see any possibilities of getting P-Zilla exposed to some direct sunlight: precious little enters my place during the winter months (I'm up high, but with a Northern exposure), and what does, comes through the windows. I could take P-Zilla to a park, but then what? 

Hmmm....maybe in an appropriate cage? (Meaning one which would let a large amount of sunlight in).

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to stress poor P-Zilla out by the experience. Perhaps something to try in the Spring....


Margarret, you're right about the reference to Dave Roth in Phoenix - given Phil's knowledge and love of pigeons (and as we've discovered, apparently all living creatures) I thought that he might have been the guy profiled in the book - which I read last year.

At the moment, its 3:30 a.m. in Paris, and I'm still up - despite having some morning classes to teach tomorrow. Poopzilla is toasting himself on top the the radiator - which he can now reach - next to the window. I put an old tee-shirt on top of it, and the temperature is just right for a relaxing snooze. From time to time he grunts contentedly - obviously delighted at having discovered this great roosting-place - as well as finally having left floor-level, on which he's spent the last six months, under his own power. A couple of neighborhood ferals are spending the night on the ledge on the other side of the window; I can see their dark silhouettes against the faintly-lighted sky above the city.

Everything's calm and quiet; the immediate world (me, P-Zilla and the birds on the windowsill outside is at peace. One day has ended and another not quite begun.

I wonder what tomorrow will bring?


Good night to all,


Jonathan and Poopzilla


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## nbdyuknow

I liked all the info about poopzilla. as a "parent" of a single pigeon, i can relate. i live in the US, and am lucky enough to have a wonderful pigeon store nearby. I have numerous choices for Sophie's seed, but since I recently moved to the country, I have started buying in 50# bags. She likes the feed, but--being spoiled AND overfed--she leaves the corn until I cut back on her breakfast and dinner. Of course, she has plenty of hemp and safflower seeds (her favorite) for treats. Oddly, she doesn't care for peanuts at all, no matter how I attempt to present them to her--big, small, crushed, smashed, diced, she has no interest. 

Anyway, if it would help at all, Id' volunteer to airmail you pigeon feed seeds, grit and anything else you think you need. I know Sophie used to be able ot make a 5 lb. bag last a long time. So, if there's anything you need for the little fellow, just let me know, or drop me a line off list, and I will send it along for you.

Cheers,

Bill B.


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## mr squeaks

Good for Sophie, Bill...I have heard on the site that peanuts are not the best for the pijies...However, Squeaks is "nuts" about his Saffs and Hemps, so can relate!

Sounds like PZ is comin' along just fine, Jonathan...bet those ferals will keep him entertained or maybe he will keep THEM entertained?! 

What do you teach? And, I promise I won't tell your students you stayed up til the wee hours writing about a pigeon... Of course, they don't know that Poopzilla is quite world famous!  

Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## maryjane

mr squeaks said:


> GOOD HEAVENS!!! Be away for over 24 hours and.....
> 
> 
> *Generally speaking, there are times when I will follow "discretion is the better part of valor" and keep my post shut. However, I do have a few comments to make...*
> 
> First - maybe my age(?) - *I thought this post and all other posts started by Jonathan were/are hysterical! I believe in laughter. I also realize than not everyone would share my opinion regarding certain subjects and discussions. So be it. *AND, as has been stated before, we are a diverse group - some more conservative than others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion(s) and, after stating their positions, have choices: further discussion(s), ignore, etc.
> 
> I also think that* intent can be an important issue. *Those who deliberately and knowingly start a thread/discussion/post with the intent to cause trouble is one thing. *Those who say things that were not intentionally intended to provoke is something else.
> *
> Yes, some phrases are provacative and can "insult/bother" others...again, depends on how one "takes" the words. To sum up, I again say,
> 
> _" I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard in not what I meant."_
> 
> 
> Shi


LOL, I love that last part. Kinda hard to wrap the mind around, I am pretty tired hehe. Thanks, Shi, I couldn't have said it better myself. And no, it has nothing to do with age. . .maybe a Scorpio thing?  




> At the moment, its 3:30 a.m. in Paris, and I'm still up - despite having some morning classes to teach tomorrow. Poopzilla is *toasting himself on top the the radiator - which he can now reach - next to the window. I put an old tee-shirt on top of it, and the temperature is just right for a relaxing snooze. From time to time he grunts contentedly - obviously delighted at having discovered this great roosting-place *- as well as finally having left floor-level, on which he's spent the last six months, under his own power.


Hehe Bernadette was standing on the heater vent in the floor earlier, right after the heater went off. She looked pretty pleased with herself, too.


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## Reti

My pijies don't get direct sunlight either, so I bought them a reptile lamp with a broad spectrum UVA/UVB bulb which I leave on whenever I am in the room. 

Reti


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## ryannon

@Bill:

Thank you so much for your offer...I'm going to have to sort things out concerning what might be good (or absolutely necessary)... I'll also be contacting some local pigeon fanciers who've been recommended to me and see if they know of a source for specialized products. But I'll let you know, and may take you up on your gracious proposition.

@Reti: that's an interesting and very feasible idea. 

Makes me think of the unbelievable number of hours and hours and hours I've spent myself just soaking up the beneficial rays of the sun in one of the nearby public gardens - or even seated in a café terrace: definitely _healing._ Couldn't have gotten through life without it.

I'm going to Google the terms and specs you've mentioned and see if I can find the same. 

Alternatively, they do sell compact light systems intended to ward off SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) which many people suffer from during the winter months when there's a lack of sunshine here. Could we be talking about the same type of light-source, or is this lizard-specific? 


UPdate:

_Google knows all_  :

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?N=2003&aid=1186

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=5059+5690


Best regards to all,


Jonathan


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## Reti

Should be pretty much the same thing. I know the reptile lamps are pretty much "sunlight" even though artificial but it does have what an animal needs.

DrFoster and Smith is my favourite place for pet shopping, they have pretty much everything. The reptile lamps are much cheaper I see, compared to the bird lights and should be pretty much the same thing.

Reti


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## pdpbison

ryannon said:


> Thanks for reminding me of the author, Sabina!
> 
> A description can be found on his website:
> 
> http://www.andrewblechman.com/
> 
> @phil:
> 
> I actually have it (somewhere) and would be happy to send it over to you - I don't believe in holding on to books; it's better when they're shared. In turn, you could pass it on to a forum member who hasn't read it, and so on...



Cool...sounds good to me...thanks!


Your mention of excercise and play...with Poopzilla..

I'd think are definitely good for him...


If you lightly 'glisten' his Seeds with some fresh Olive Oil...you can get powders to stick to the Seeds, and, then he gets the powders as he eats.

Powders can be lots of different things...

- Powdered or fine-flaked 'Purple Dulce'...

- Brewer's Yeast 

- Vitamines-Minerals, such as 'Nekton T' ( which you could send off for Mail Order, it is well known in Europe)

You can finely mince some fresh Garlic, add some of that to his day's worth of Seeds...

Non-salty sorts of Sea Weed, the 'fine' textured ones, he will either enjoy eating merely shredded by your fingers into small bits, or, you can grind in a little Coffee Grinder into a powder to add to his 'glistened' Seeds...

Fresh Greens, such as Endives, Beet Tops, Kales, Chards...( skip Lettuce if of common sorts, ) which...if he does not peck off bites as you hold some ( and as you hamm it up about how good it is) then take some Scissors and cut up tiny 1/8th inch 'diamond' shapes, say, a Teaspoon full or more, and have a little pile of that, next to his Seeds...and pretend-peck at them to get him going on them...

Get him some still chewy not stale whole Flax Seeds every now and then and encourage him to eat them.


Direct Sunshine is important for them to make Vitamine "D"...and they get it best that way, rather than in supliments...


If your Window gets straight Sunshine coming in, arrange some sort of grill so the Window can be 'open', and the Bird safe from getting out...


...or, make find or get a sort small sort of easy Cage, something easily carried, and bring him to the Park or something, where you can read-a-book, and he can get some Rays safely...

Just so he can have some now and then...


Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## ryannon

PM sent for your address, Phil.


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## mr squeaks

Reading Phil's post about greens, reminded me of Squeaks and his greens. I was making a salad one day and accidently dropped a small piece of Romaine. Squeaks just happened to be in "mate" mode and was in the kitchen with me. I looked down and Squeaks went after that piece in a flash and gobbled it right down. 

I had other pieces of dark greens and started dropping pieces to see what he would do. He nailed them all! Sometimes, for kicks, I would drop a couple at a time...what a riot! He got 'em all and was he ever fast!! 

You could always call it, "How to get your pij to eat his greens!"   

Hugs and scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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