# Feral pigeon, most likely pmv...advice?



## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Hey,

So most of the pigeons in my city have been dying off from this nasty strain of pmv. Usually I don't do anything other than feed them since 90% of them have it now but grew attached to one who I'd seen a few times in the past week. Two days ago he would have trouble flying, walk in circles, trouble picking up seeds, weird head movements and just seeming disorientated. Then today I saw him and he was dramatically worse, he was stanidng in the middle of a pathway and couldn't fly or walk. He's eyes are very discoloured and his poops are green.

I took him home because I felt terrible for him but I'm assuming he will die soon if it is PMV. Do you guys see any possibility of it being anything else? If not, do you think that it'd be better to go to a vet and have him put down? I don't want him to suffer more than he has and since he can't walk or fly  

Also, I have two pigeons of my own and am extremely worried of this transmitting to them as it has no cure and all of the pigeons affected die. This may be a stupid question but can pmv be transmitted through the air? 
Should I throw away clothes, bowls etc that he has pooped on or used for food and water?
Also, to make sure that there's no chance of contaminating my own pigeons food and water etc is washing my hands enough or should I take extra precautions?


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

I just went to see him now and when he tries to walk he falls on his side of face, I'm even worried of him drowning in his own water as he fell into it before  I only put very shallow water. I'm starting to think more putting him down would be the kindest thing for him unless you guys think I can help him..

Edited to add: I called the animal shelter they say they will take him and see if they can treat him if not they will ethunaise him. What should I do? Should I try and help him myself or take him to the animal shelter?

Even though when I held him in the city he was interested in eating, he now has no interest..I think because of the shock of changing locations. *How can I feed him?* I've never force fed a pigeon. He drinks water on his own.

Also adding, he seems to be breathing heavily.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear msmely,

I would suggest that you don't take it to a shelter. The bad thing about shelters is they are `middle men', so they will probably keep it in a cage for a day or more, and if he doesn't die, he will eventually be sent to a vet to be killed. From personally experience, these organisations can make a very sick feral pigeon wait days without food or water until they find someone to take it a vet, and vets can then make them wait many hours before they put it to sleep as well. So while you might imagine that you are passing it on for a quick end to its suffering, most likely it will die very afraid and suffering much more than if it stayed with you.

Regarding food that you can hand feed, there are lots of different options but in a pinch you can give it rehydrated cat or dog biscuits like portions of friskies or good-o soaked in water, defrosted frozen peas and corn, refrigerated dog food sausage.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

My understanding is it is not usually the PMV that kills them, but the disorientation which makes them easy prey and impossible to eat properly (which can lead to starvation). Kept inside with warmth and given water and feed by hand he should eventually come around if he is not too bad off, but it will take commitment and time from you for a couple weeks during recovery. You will have to learn how to handfeed him if you do do not already. BTW, Paratyphoid can sometimes also produce those symptoms but more likely I would think it would be PMV.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks guys. 
I'll see what I can do for him. It's just heartbreaking to even see him, he can't move whatsoever and if he does..he falls on his back and needs help  
I'll take care of him for a few days, hand feed him and see what happens...If I do take him to the shelter, since they're also an animal hospital..I'll see if I can get an appointment. I wouldn't mind paying for it if it meant he wasn't going to be left there sick.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Give him support by keeping him contained and hand feeding him. It may take some weeks but it's likely he will improve so that he is able to feed himself again.
Please do remove the water though.
Please don't take him to the shelter. So many birds are taken to shelters that very seldom do they have the time or space to give such a bird a chance. It could mean some weeks, on your part, to get him over this but weeks are a short amount of time in relationship to the number of years a pigeon can live.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just wanted to post a link to all the info about this particular Strain of the PMV virus that is on the Victoria DPI website. Hope it helps!

PMV Fact Sheet:

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...s/pigeon-virus/avian-paramyxovirus-fact-sheet

Disinfection Guidelines:

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...rus/disinfection-guidelines-for-pigeon-owners

Situation update:

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...animal-diseases/pigeon-virus/situation-update


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Thank Bella for the links.

I don't want to take him to the shelter..I really want to care for him more than anything but my parents are the issue. I have a rescued kitten at the moment and they're very against more animals in the house but I'm going to try my hardest to stretch out as much time as possible. 

I did remove the water yesterday.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If supported during the time they are sick, many do recover. Most that are dying from this disease, it's because they need support...........hand feeding and warmth to get through this. Most of the birds dying from this illness are not getting any support, so they starve to death, or die from other complications. Give him water when you are there with him, but don't leave the water with him, as he can actually fall in and drown.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks Jay. I tried to syringe feed him but he's very stubborn and I couldn't manage to do it, I'll keep trying. It's frustrating because when I caught him he was still eating seeds but I think the shock of being somewhere knew has made him stop eating. 

Also, if I keep him during this time and he does get better is he releasable? Because I won't be able to keep him long term.

On a good note, he's poos are looking better. they're not green and runny anymore, they're starting to turn into normal brown/white poos.

Edit to add: My parents just snapped at me, they want him gone today. Unless there is someone in my area (Melbourne) who can take him, I'm going to have to take him to be put down soon


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Feed him with the defrosted peas. I think I posted instructions in one of your other threads. It works so well...much easier than the syringe.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks for the advice guys, unfortunately because of my parents I had to take him to the animal hospital to be put down. He was attended by the vet straight away and they were very kind to him, I'd like to think he's in a better place now.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

msmely said:


> Thanks for the advice guys, unfortunately because of my parents I had to take him to the animal hospital to be put down. He was attended by the vet straight away and they were very kind to him, I'd like to think he's in a better place now.


Dear msmely,

I think that was ok, don't worry. The PMV virus in Australia is not like the PMV that international members have seen abroad- the vets in Melbourne who have experience with it are saying it is probably a different strain with a significantly higher mortality rate, and they are in the process of classifying it. Also , you weren't experienced and you had no support at home or a way to figure out good biosecurity measures, so you took in account all your limitations. The way I look at it, is every living creature dies, and we can only hope that when that time comes it will be as painless, quick, and stress free as possible. For most wild birds, death is violent, painful, prolonged, & cruel. They are eaten alive by ants that get into their ears and eyes, and predators that tear them apart while they are still alive, and they scream like nothing you've heard before (I have heard it) . You spared him that.

I am dreading the day I come across PMV up here in Queensland!


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks Bella for that. I can't wait for the day I have my own place and am able to properly look after these guys but it's so hard with my parents. 
I feel so helpless here, the remaining 4 pigeons who come my house are getting worse and worse and no matter where I go I spot a pigeon acting crazy from the pmv, it's so heartbreaking 

All I can say is that this little guy was very relaxed on the car trip to the hospital and once there they let me stay until it was done and it was quick. They're a great animal hospital, one of the vet nurses was even teary from seeing his condition but I feel like I let him go with some dignity.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella, I don't think the strain is necessarily different from ours. It's just that Australia doesn't have the vaccine, so no one is vaccinating their birds. So of course it's spreading. It didn't start with the feral birds, but with domestic pigeons. Seems they are jumping through hoops in trying to get the vaccine, which seems crazy, as they obviously need it.

Sorry msmely, that the bird had to die. I know you were trying to help him. At least he died in a better way than he would have out there.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, I don't think the strain is necessarily different from ours. It's just that Australia doesn't have the vaccine, so no one is vaccinating their birds. So of course it's spreading. It didn't start with the feral birds, but with domestic pigeons. Seems they are jumping through hoops in trying to get the vaccine, which seems crazy, as they obviously need it.
> 
> Sorry msmely, that the bird had to die. I know you were trying to help him. At least he died in a better way than he would have out there.


I agree with you,Jay.
A few years ago, I was watching a documentary about a wildlife rehabber in Australia...a reference was was to coccidia and what a shame it was that treatment was unavailable because it is a fatal condition....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, I don't think the strain is necessarily different from ours. It's just that Australia doesn't have the vaccine, so no one is vaccinating their birds. So of course it's spreading. It didn't start with the feral birds, but with domestic pigeons. Seems they are jumping through hoops in trying to get the vaccine, which seems crazy, as they obviously need it.
> 
> .


Hi Jay3,

I understand you mean well but you are wrong.

There is a PMV vaccine available for use here, made available by Dr Colin Walker's office initially, and the vaccination is contributing to the spread of the disease because the virus in it remains `live' for a period of time. Unfortunately during that time people have been flying their birds and getting it into the feral population.

According to the situation reports on the DPI website & ANPA, there is a concern that the PMV virus here is a different strain to the one abroad. It is currently being classified.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> I agree with you,Jay.
> A few years ago, I was watching a documentary about a wildlife rehabber in Australia...a reference was was to coccidia and what a shame it was that treatment was unavailable because it is a fatal condition....


So what Charis? That wasn't me. You're not one of those people who think that all black people live in Ghettos, sell drugs, and stab children for fun because you saw it on TV are you?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

msmely said:


> Thanks Bella for that. I can't wait for the day I have my own place and am able to properly look after these guys but it's so hard with my parents.
> I feel so helpless here, the remaining 4 pigeons who come my house are getting worse and worse and no matter where I go I spot a pigeon acting crazy from the pmv, it's so heartbreaking
> 
> All I can say is that this little guy was very relaxed on the car trip to the hospital and once there they let me stay until it was done and it was quick. They're a great animal hospital, one of the vet nurses was even teary from seeing his condition but I feel like I let him go with some dignity.


msmely,

May I ask you, was there any indication from the Vet that they thought this was PMV too? It would have been good to know for certain that the symptoms you are seeing mean what you think they mean. 

I'm so sorry for the remaining birds


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They don't have the right vaccine. I believe they have used the LaSota vaccine, which isn't effective. And the Australian laws are getting in the way of importing the right vaccine. If they used the killed vaccine as we do over here, it would work as well as it does here.

Current Australian laws do not allow the importation of inactivated pigeon PMV1 vaccine (Colombovac in Europe) which is the vaccine used elsewhere around the world to effectively prevent the disease. The current situation in Victoria may have been contained but there is a significant risk of future outbreaks and the potentially devastating effects of the disease on the hobby which we think warrant the fast track importation of the vaccine. We also believe there needs to a strategy in place before another outbreak occurs and as such ask that the Australian government fast tracks the process for this to occur to allow pigeon fanciers to protect their birds.
http://www.anpa.com.au/uncategorized/submission-to-federal-government-on-pmv1-vaccination/

Using Lasota for PMV
I couldnt find what I wrote earlier about PMV -Lasota so I amwriting this again. In checking with people I would know had information on this I found the following out:
Hi Rena,

When Lasota vaccine was first sold to fight
paramyxovirus it was supposed to be a miracle product.
Let's imagine, a product that can be used in water to
vaccinate our pigeons. About 15 years ago, all racing
homers pigeons in our area were using it. Most pigeon
product companies were selling it. They sold it untill
a PMV epedemic happenned. Here in our area, just after
the races, we had such an epidemic an all Fanciers
were loosing their birds. Every morning, they gathered
up their pigeons dead on the floor. Most fanciers had
used LaSota a few months before.

Please read what Siegle sais about Lasota:
''To prevent Paramyxovirus, the only product that is
truly successful in the United States is the Maine
Biological oil-adjuvant PMV-1 vaccine. Many fanciers
are using the LaSota vaccine thinking they are
protecting their birds, but challenge tests using the
LaSota intraocular vaccine proved conclusively that
the LaSota vaccine was not effective in producing
antibodies for the pigeon PMV-1 virus. While the
LaSota vaccine was effective for short-duration
protection for NewCastles disease, this disease is
almost non-existent in pigeons and should be
differentiated from PMV-1.''

Raymond Julien,
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/using-lasota-for-pmv-12850.html

And Dr. Walker was trying to get the vaccine in November.

Colin Walker then addressed the meeting and stated the urgent need for a vaccine, an urgency made all the more important for John Shore and others with pigeons under attack. He stated that it was his desire to get an emergency reserve of vaccine in to Australia to meet such needs and to proceed with an application for a permanent supply to be made available.

Dr Sam Hamilton from the Dept of the Chief Veterinary Officer in Canberra then spoke and explained some of the problems in a vaccine being approved. It was a Federal decision but then, once available became a decision for individual States to accept/use. I felt that Dr Hamilton was impressed with the anxieties expressed and is likely to be responsive to supporting an application to the Chief Veterinary Officer.
http://www.anpa.com.au/uncategorized/report-on-pmv-strategy-meeting-nov-10th/


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Bella, I think she thought it was but because he was so bad they didnt spend much time on him and put him to sleep straight away.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> They don't have the right vaccine.


Hi Jay,
Thats right, we only have access to the live vaccine which IS fairly effective, but it carries risks such as the birds potentially spreading the live virus for a period of time. And that has been the main issue here with it, rather than effectiveness.

But the availability or absence of the vaccine isn't what has determined the mortality rate of this strain, which is close to 100% unlike the overseas strains. Many lofts (52) have been under quarantine and veterinary supervision by Dr Colin Walker himself, and none of the suggestions you and Charis made like feeding frozen peas saved any of the birds. Its just a particularly nasty strain that kills within 3 days. You obviously have access to the same reports I'm reading, so please read them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

msmely said:


> Bella, I think she thought it was but because he was so bad they didnt spend much time on him and put him to sleep straight away.


I suppose they would need to do an autopsy anyway, to figure it out. I hope they do pass on the poor little ones body to the DPI for testing.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Well, I now have another feral in my care  
Again, I can only have him for a night but he is one of the babies who comes to my house and has been sick for a while. It was terrible weather today, thunder storming and he was on the street, under no cover...completely soaked.

I'm extremely paranoid about pmv possibily transferring to my pigeons. Is it true I can get it (like similar to a mild cold)? And if I get it, can I transfer it to my pigeons by handling them and their food? I'm just really worried.


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## macka (Oct 26, 2008)

If you think that you are going to go around, rescuing Pigeons with
PMV1,it has now got out into the Feral Pigeons & there will be Pigeons,
dieing every where.Just put them down & save yourselves, the time of
fiddling around with them & only helping to spread the Virus further.
There was around 200 dead ones picked up, last week around some 
Shopping Centra in the West side of Melbourne.Just report them to the
DPI,if you come across any sick or dead ones.That is the best thing to do.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

macka said:


> If you think that you are going to go around, rescuing Pigeons with
> PMV1,it has now got out into the Feral Pigeons & there will be Pigeons,
> dieing every where.Just put them down & save yourselves, the time of
> fiddling around with them & only helping to spread the Virus further.
> ...


Macka - this is a pigeon FRIENDLY site -
which I'm sure you are aware.
I know you have problems in Aus with PMV, & I know it is considered the strain is different, but that DOESENT mean that PTS is the answer for every sick bird.
Several things can cause PMV like symptoms but none have even been mentioned on this bird !!
Perhaps if some of the so called "Pigeon Fanciers" had been more responsible in the first place the situation would be more controllable. (or even avoided) 





msmely said:


> Well, I now have another feral in my care
> Again, I can only have him for a night but he is one of the babies who comes to my house and has been sick for a while. It was terrible weather today, thunder storming and he was on the street, under no cover...completely soaked.
> 
> I'm extremely paranoid about pmv possibily transferring to my pigeons. Is it true I can get it (like similar to a mild cold)? And if I get it, can I transfer it to my pigeons by handling them and their food? I'm just really worried.


Msmely, ANY ill bird can pass on ilness to healthy birds if they are not isolated.
Yes, PMV can cause conjunctovitis in humans, although this is rare & mainly in circumstances where the human immune system is not up to par, or correct hygene procedures are not used.
heres a few tips,
1 - NEVER handle or treat a sick bird before handling or attending to healthy birds. 
2 - ALWAYS sterilise any food/water containers used by sick birds on a regular basis.
3 - ALWAYS dispose of any unused food/water used by a sick bird, NEVER just throw it out where other birds could get access to it.
4 - ALWAYS wash hands thouroughly after handling a sick bird, and NEVER rub any parts of your body (especially eyes or face) with your hands before washing.
5 - Ideally, if you have disposable gloves, use them when handling a sick bird, & also if possible, change your top if you "cuddle" the bird into you.
6 - Wipe up any poop from the infected bird a.s.a.p. to avoid any possibility of any being transferred via foot or other contact to your healthy bird area.
7 - Any cage/container used for a sick bird should be thouroughly washed & sterilised before any future use.

These steps will all help to stop any disease from spreading.

Flock birds all eat/drink/ follow each other about so any illness spreads throughout a flock very quickly. Flocks also merge & share feeding areas so this also adds to the spread throughout various flocks.

Sadly, one night will not really help any bird who is sick, no matter what illness it has.
Even if the bird recovers, releasing it back into an unhealthy flock will see it quickly return to ill health.
I understand your concern for the litte one, but it will take much longer than one night for it to make a difference.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Thank you for all the advice on cleanliness Quazar. It helps a lot.

I know one night doesn't really do anything but unfortunately my parents won't allow any longer and I wanted to at least take him away from the rain and thunderstorms. I'll see how he is tomorrow, if he is too sick to support himself then I'll have to take him to the animal hospital to be put to sleep like the other little guy  I really hate this situation. There used to be so many healthy birds and now there almost all gone.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

msmely said:


> Well, I now have another feral in my care
> Again, I can only have him for a night but he is one of the babies who comes to my house and has been sick for a while. It was terrible weather today, thunder storming and he was on the street, under no cover...completely soaked.
> 
> I'm extremely paranoid about pmv possibily transferring to my pigeons. Is it true I can get it (like similar to a mild cold)? And if I get it, can I transfer it to my pigeons by handling them and their food? I'm just really worried.


msmely,

Like Quazar said, you won't be able to help any sick pigeons in just one night unfortunately. You need to explain to your parents that you need more time. I don 't understand why they will let you have a string of separate birds night after night, but not the same one for the amount of time it needs to get well? I mean they said to you yesterday you couldn't keep a pigeon, but now they've let you take another one. Why not just keep one and make it well?

Also, please remember that you have not established that this pigeon has PMV. The fact that you said its been sick for a while makes it unlikely that its PMV, since this strain of the virus kills within 3 days. The pigeon you have now is more likely to be suffering from complications of starvation & secondary illness, since it lost its regular food source for a couple of weeks when you couldn't feed it. 

What it needs now is warmth, food, antibiotics for at least a week. I mentioned two brands of antibiotic you can get in Australia, one is called Sulfa-3, the other is `triple sulfa' that you can get from a pet store.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm not sure it's pmv, but it's definitely effecting the ferals at my house terribly. They're not able to fly properly and don't seem all there. He was just standing on the street, with no shelter even though there is available shelter. 
This baby is extremely thin though even since he has been coming to my house everyday to eat. It's been a month now since I got back.

And unfortunately with my parents, if I even try and fight it they start attacking me and question my "sanity" on why I care about these animals so much. Just keeping one pigeon for one night, is hard enough to ask. The reason they are lenient on this one was because it was raining terribly and they recogonise who he is, since he is the baby of one of the ferals that we named. I wish it was different but my dad especially is very against animals in the house and what he says, goes. I'm in a very sticky situation and releasing him tommorow or taking him to the hosptial are the only options I have.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

msmely said:


> . The reason they are lenient on this one was because it was raining terribly and they recogonise who he is, since he is the baby of one of the ferals that we named. I wish it was different but my dad especially is very against animals in the house and what he says, goes. I'm in a very sticky situation and releasing him tommorow or taking him to the hosptial are the only options I have.


msmely,

That is such a sad situation for the baby pigeon to be in, and I'm sorry that noone is willing to help it 

It makes me so angry that white people in Australia are technically feral animals too, and we are so utterly destructive towards the environment and other life- we are the ultimate pest species in this country. And yet we feel wholly entitled to medical care, whereas when it comes to the feral pigeons *that we brought here for our pleasure* we don't blink an eye at denying them medical care and basic compassion because they are `just a feral'.

Your parents have a fairly typical Australian attitude, but I find it hopeful that they have named your local pigeons; that shows they are interested and fond of them. Its just a pity they won't lift a finger to help them with buying a $7 pack of antibiotics and letting it stay in a box in your room for a little while.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> So what Charis? *That wasn't me. *You're not one of those people who think that all black people live in Ghettos, sell drugs, and stab children for fun because you saw it on TV are you?


I never said it was. As for the rest of your comment...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Jay,
> Thats right, we only have access to the live vaccine which IS fairly effective, but it carries risks such as the birds potentially spreading the live virus for a period of time. And that has been the main issue here with it, rather than effectiveness.
> 
> But the availability or absence of the vaccine isn't what has determined the mortality rate of this strain, which is close to 100% unlike the overseas strains. Many lofts (52) have been under quarantine and veterinary supervision by Dr Colin Walker himself, and none of the suggestions you and Charis made like feeding frozen peas saved any of the birds. Its just a particularly nasty strain that kills within 3 days. You obviously have access to the same reports I'm reading, so please read them.





I have read them Bella. You read Please.

Using Lasota for PMV
I couldnt find what I wrote earlier about PMV -Lasota so I amwriting this again. In checking with people I would know had information on this I found the following out:
Hi Rena,

When Lasota vaccine was first sold to fight
paramyxovirus it was supposed to be a miracle product.
Let's imagine, a product that can be used in water to
vaccinate our pigeons. About 15 years ago, all racing
homers pigeons in our area were using it. Most pigeon
product companies were selling it. They sold it untill
a PMV epedemic happenned. Here in our area, just after
the races, we had such an epidemic an all Fanciers
were loosing their birds. *Every morning, they gathered
up their pigeons dead on the floor. Most fanciers had
used LaSota a few months before.*

Please read what Siegle sais about Lasota:
''To prevent Paramyxovirus, the only product that is
truly successful in the United States is the Maine
Biological oil-adjuvant PMV-1 vaccine. Many fanciers
are using the LaSota vaccine thinking they are
protecting their birds, but challenge tests using the
LaSota intraocular vaccine proved conclusively that
*the LaSota vaccine was not effective in producing
antibodies for the pigeon PMV-1 virus. While the
LaSota vaccine was effective for short-duration
protection for NewCastles disease, this disease is
almost non-existent in pigeons and should be
differentiated from PMV-1.''*

Raymond Julien,
Canada.
______
____________


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Jay,
> Thats right, we only have access to the live vaccine which IS fairly effective, but it carries risks such as the birds potentially spreading the live virus for a period of time. And that has been the main issue here with it, rather than effectiveness.
> 
> But the availability or absence of the vaccine isn't what has determined the mortality rate of this strain, which is close to 100% unlike the overseas strains. Many lofts (52) have been under quarantine and veterinary supervision by Dr Colin Walker himself, *and none of the suggestions you and Charis made like feeding frozen peas saved any of the birds.* Its just a particularly nasty strain that kills within 3 days. You obviously have access to the same reports I'm reading, so please read them.



Bella, hand feeding isn't supposed to save the birds. It is to help them with supportive care to help them get through this illness. You say it hasn't helped, but do you really believe that the people who own these infected lofts are bringing their birds in and keeping them warm and hand feeding all of them? We were talking about taking care of one bird here. And yes, they normally do need help with hand feeding while going through the disease.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

My family all love the ferals and feel horrible for them but my dad is the one who decides and won't let me help them so my mum is just the messenger. I think the main reason is because I already have two pigeons, my dad doesn't want more animals in the house. If I didn't have them, he probably would be more lenient towards it..we've rescued ferals before when I had none of my own birds but now it's a completely different story unfortunately  

Anyway, the little guy passed away last night unfortunately. I didn't think he had much of a chance of making it, when I was holding him myself yesterday..the only way I could know if he was alive was by his breathing. It's so sad seeing a youngster pass away, I'll bury him today.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

Hey, I just wanted to post a picture of the little guy who passed..I always loved him and his brother/sister a lot. His mother who we knew for a while was an extremely bossy girl who was even more headstrong than her mate and would boss around everyone in the flock so she could get some food so it's no wander that this little guy ended up fighting what he had for so long, a fighter just like his mum.
This is when he was healthy and happy.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Rip baby! He was so cute


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Wow this is a horribly sad thread…


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

It is so sad. I'm visiting the flock in the city more often since they need help with food, and they are less and less everyday, about 15 now. Most of the ones who are left can't fly and are very sick. 
I haven't visited my favourite flock because I'm too scared too, they were the healthiest flock I'd ever seen and many people fed them everyday but my sister said that there are none left now. All of the flocks I know have gone to nothing  

It's not just saddness for these birds...I also feel incredibly angry that people who had their sick fancy/racing pigeons couldn't keep them quarantined, this didn't need to happen to ferals at all. Things could be totally different now if people had just not flown their birds.

I can only hope that eventually they will develop some kind of immunity to this disease and bring back some numbers.

Here is a video I took of the flock just 4 months ago. They were lovely, still are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtrY2WXK1pU&list=UUgDWGCnjU-b_pCOMtCyZRfQ&index=9&feature=plcp


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Bella, hand feeding isn't supposed to save the birds. It is to help them with supportive care to help them get through this illness.


Hi Jay,

Its ok, I did understand you & I realise that supportive care is required for PMV victims. I personally believe that msmely was not equipped to deal with that though for the reasons she put forth....no medicine for fighting secondary illness, no support at home to provide long term care for a pigeon, no experience with hand feeding, no hospital cage, no heat mat, no idea about quarantine measures & disinfection etc etc. Its just a lot to take in for someone trying to help their first pigeon, and one with such a serious disease. 

I seriously do appreciate your positivity surrounding helping PMV victims though, and I hope that in the near future we will come across someone in Victoria who is a good position to have a really good stab at trying to help one of them. I'm itching to know whether these birds can be saved, because like I mentioned earlier, there has been a lot of speculation amongst vets here about whether this is an endemic strain of PMV.



> You say it hasn't helped, but do you really believe that the people who own these infected lofts are bringing their birds in and keeping them warm and hand feeding all of them? .


I have been wondering about that too. I have a pretty low opinion of the pigeon fancier community in Melbourne right now, but I'm not sure if that necessarily translates into every one of them too heartless to try to save their sick birds. But it certainly could be the case


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I have read them Bella. You read Please.
> 
> Using Lasota for PMV
> I couldnt find what I wrote earlier about PMV -Lasota so I amwriting this again. In checking with people I would know had information on this I found the following out:
> ...


Thanks Jay,

Geese, if the vaccine is perpetuating this, then that Dr Colin Walker has a lot to answer for. He's the one who started selling it to the pigeon racing community You'd think he'd know better if its so deadly?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

msmely said:


> It is so sad. I'm visiting the flock in the city more often since they need help with food, and they are less and less everyday, about 15 now. Most of the ones who are left can't fly and are very sick.
> I haven't visited my favourite flock because I'm too scared too, they were the healthiest flock I'd ever seen and many people fed them everyday but my sister said that there are none left now. All of the flocks I know have gone to nothing
> 
> It's not just saddness for these birds...I also feel incredibly angry that people who had their sick fancy/racing pigeons couldn't keep them quarantined, this didn't need to happen to ferals at all. Things could be totally different now if people had just not flown their birds.
> ...



I loved the video, thanks for showing us that

I'm very mad at the people who wouldn't lock down their birds too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella, to address your last three comments:
I realize that msmely doesn't have the tools necessary to help these birds. I said that the peas and corn were not meant to be a cure, because you said that our advice about peas and corn had not helped any of the birds. I was only pointing out that you do not know that anyone with one of these sick lofts had hand fed their birds. I wasn't talking about msmely. That was suggested as a way to help her bird, had she been able to keep it. I am not blaming her at all. Nothing she can do unless her parents allow her to.

As far as Colin Walker selling the LaSota vaccine, I believe your officials were together with him on that. You use what you have. Not the answer for the disease in the long run, but that's all they had. Not his fault that the people were still flying his birds. It isn't the vaccine that is perpetuating the disease. It's the foolishness of the people who are flying their birds. And the foolishness of your government for making it so hard to bring in the right vaccine. Even then, they want to control and limit who they allow to use it. Not only that, but it’s up to the maufacturer to obtain permits and approval of their vaccine. Then they will decide whether it is worth it to them to do all that to bring their vaccine to Australia. Doesn’t seem like Australia is trying all that hard to help themselves.


http://www.anpa.com.au/uncategorized/pmv-update-november-24/

I never said the Lasota vaccine was deadly, as you are saying. I said it wasn’t effective enough for PMV1. 
It’s sad that so many birds are suffering with this disease, but one would think that your government would step up more to help. All I had said was that it wasn’t necessarily a different strain of PMV, just that your country is fighting it with the wrong tools.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

> As far as Colin Walker selling the LaSota vaccine, I believe your officials were together with him on that.


Actually, they weren't, if you are referring to the Government Department in charge of managing PMV in Australia, the Victorian DPI. They strongly warned against using the live vaccine from the beginning, and they still don't endorse it.



> I never said the Lasota vaccine was deadly, as you are saying. I said it wasn’t effective enough for PMV1.



I'm sorry, I thought the comment below was referring to the vaccine causing the deaths. I can see what you really meant now, sorry!



> Here in our area, just after
> the races, we had such an epidemic an all Fanciers
> were loosing their birds. Every morning, they gathered
> up their pigeons dead on the floor. Most fanciers had
> used LaSota a few months before





> It isn't the vaccine that is perpetuating the disease. It's the foolishness of the people who are flying their birds. And the foolishness of your government for making it so hard to bring in the right vaccine. Even then, they want to control and limit who they allow to use it. Not only that, but it’s up to the maufacturer to obtain permits and approval of their vaccine. Then they will decide whether it is worth it to them to do all that to bring their vaccine to Australia. Doesn’t seem like Australia is trying all that hard to help themselves.


I totally agree. Its been a really disappointing effort all round


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

I don't have any input on the illness being discussed here but I can only witness what is happening. 

I have seen all the flocks I used to visit that were big in numbers and they are now down to only a few. My sister lives a while away and she has a near by neighbour who feeds feral pigeons at his house, I was hoping his would stay healthy but she talked to him today and he said he's gone from 150 pigeons to 15. He thought someone was poising the birds but now at least he knows what's happening.

I'm kind of losing hope that any ferals in Melbourne will survive this  Do you guys think any could survive and they could gain back some numbers? 

Any pigeon I see alive now, shows visible signs of pmv..I know Bella said it kills them within 1-3 days but I've seen ferals alive for well over a week with visible signs of pmv. Twisting head, walking in cirlces, not being able to pick up seeds...perhaps some ferals are stronger at fighting it off than the racing pigeons were? Either way, there's hardly any left.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sadly, they usually starve to death and dehydrate, from not being able to eat or drink. And that takes several days or longer. It doesn't normally kill them in 3 days. Who knows how long they were carrying the disease before showing symptoms also. It's a horrible thing your pigeons are going through. Don't know how many will be able to avoid catching the illness and surviving. It must be a devastating thing to watch.


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## msmely (Feb 13, 2011)

For anyone who still is interested in knowing. It seems like the ferals have stabalised somewhat. The man who feeds the feral pigeon at his house went from 150 to 15 quite rapidly but in the past week he hasn't lost anymore he says. For myself, I went from 15 to 4 and those 4 left seem to be doing okay as well *knock on wood*
I've been feeding the city flock every 2 days and the last 30 who are left don't seem to be declining in numbers. I think most of them who got infected died and the rest may have been strong enough to pull through.
If anything, I noticed less ill pigeons and most of them were very eager for food which hasn't been the case in recent times. 

Out of the rest of the flocks, it's the same..you see a handful of pigeons left when there used to be many. I'm guess this strain of pmv is killing 90% of ferals in flocks but I'm glad some seem to be surviving it.
I just thought I'd post that bit of good news...it's been a little bit of light in the darkness for me


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Hopefully things will level off now. I hope they are able to get the vaccine they need to keep this in check. Good luck.


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