# inbreed or line breed?



## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Do Both...


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## mikel (Jun 9, 2011)

we have a good breeder cock,regardless of what we pair with it the sons and daugthers are consistent in races,now we are thinking of what approach of breeding should we do?inbreed it or line breed it?the breeder cock is only a gift from a friend and its brothers and sister did well in races


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I would take your best daughter and mate her to him, then race the babies. What he has done already tells you much about him, what the babies from that mating will tell you is all about the family.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

mikel said:


> we have a good breeder cock,regardless of what we pair with it the sons and daugthers are consistent in races,now we are thinking of what approach of breeding should we do?inbreed it or line breed it?the breeder cock is only a gift from a friend and its brothers and sister did well in races


Get as many hens as you can handle and get some cocks to use as pumpers and breed that one cock to as many hens as you can. No need to inbreed or linebreed. You can race babies off him for as long as he's filling eggs. While he's producing, I'm sure you'll find some good sons/daughters to use as breeders. Go to your friend who gave you the bird and get more. Outcross, then cross the offsprings back to the original family. Or, just breed within the family if they are scoring to your satisfaction. 

The reason one line/inbreed is to try to duplicate or preserve the original bird by closing the gene pool. It's a chance just like any other breeding method. From my own breeding experience, it's not necessary to do that. Out crossing works just as well. 

If you have on hand a bird who produces to your satisfaction, then breed from that bird without having the extra added pressure of trying to reproduce him. The chances of a bird dropping dead the next day is very low. And, if a good flying crossed offspring can't produce as good as the original bird, then it's not likely an inbred offspring will either.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

mikel said:


> we have a good breeder cock,regardless of what we pair with it the sons and daugthers are consistent in races,now we are thinking of what approach of breeding should we do?inbreed it or line breed it?the breeder cock is only a gift from a friend and its brothers and sister did well in races


You are ripe for Bull breeding if your cock is that good.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

mikel said:


> we have a good breeder cock,regardless of what we pair with it the sons and daugthers are consistent in races,now we are thinking of what approach of breeding should we do?inbreed it or line breed it?the breeder cock is only a gift from a friend and its brothers and sister did well in races


 I think that will depend on what quality hens that you have available. I would be most interested is using my best available hens, and would not be so concerned about if a certain pairing was inbreeding or line breeding. You can figure that out, once you have a loft full of sons and daughters who have filled your walls with various racing awards, and who have earned you a fortune from the money races. 

For discusssion purposes, how do you define inbreeding vs linebreeding ? One man's use of "Line Breeding" is another man's description of inbreeding.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Linebreeding is inbreeding. In my circle, inbreeding is brother/sister; linebreeding is father to daughter/granddaughter, etc. and the same with the hen.


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## mikel (Jun 9, 2011)

well there are people here who are saying that mate the cock to his daughter some says wait a little longer for a grand daughter,we are resting him for now,getting him ready for breeding later this year,we are still looking for potential hen,we are about to start our club training for this seasons race,we are going to send 6-8 hens and 9 cocks all are yb,2 of the hens are daugther and 2 cock are son of our breeder cock


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## mikel (Jun 9, 2011)

RodSD said:


> You are ripe for Bull breeding if your cock is that good.


how to do bull breeding?havent heard that style here in philippines


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Search for Bull system. Basically it is nothing more than mating your cock with different hens and you foster the eggs to a different pair of pigeons who are on eggs or about to have eggs as well. The important thing is that you got your timing right and the foster parents can still feed the babies with pigeon milk.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Here is one method for bull system:http://worldpigeon.com/forum/index.php?topic=350.0


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Xueoo said:


> Linebreeding is inbreeding. In my circle, inbreeding is brother/sister; linebreeding is father to daughter/granddaughter, etc. and the same with the hen.


 In my circle, brother to sister, or father to daughter, or for that matter, mother to son is inbreeding as you are breeding to close relatives. I always thought the term "Line Breeding" was a misnomer as it is commonly used. In the example you list above of the sire to the daughter/grand daughter, say you do pair the Sire to the Daughter, and then say you pair the resulting Granddaughter back to the Sire, who is going to say that the resulting daughter/grand daughter is the product of line breeding, and the bird is not inbreed ? So, for all practical purposes, the term line breeding is fairly useless IMHO, when it comes to discussing genetics.


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## mikel (Jun 9, 2011)

RodSD said:


> Here is one method for bull system:http://worldpigeon.com/forum/index.php?topic=350.0


thanks a lot,we will condition him first,we gonna try it by august


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

Inbreeding has and always will be the key to all progress breeding of superior livestock of any kind. Again by definition, inbreeding is the continual mating of individuals of the same related stock. The truly correct form of the word inbreeding designates only the mating between brother and sister or between offspring and parents, daughter/father or son/mother in one or more generations. Please note that nothing else constitutes inbreeding! Linebreeding, therefore, is applied to matings of a degree of consanguinity not included above! In the minds of most breeders today, there is no recognized Distinction or Difference between inbreeding and line breeding what many fanciers commonly refer to as linebreeding is not such set in reality it’s just basically the same. 
Keep in mind that inbreeding favors the production of a selection of criteria a steady continuous build-up of breeding merits that emphasis upon the production of a family. Therefore, it make sense that logically if a breed is to advance, then inbreeding must be the device with which it can be accomplished.
A word of extreme caution is necessary at this point: Remember that inbreeding is a tool to an end only for your self, it is a special purpose tool in and of itself, and it cannot create anything new. It can only fix in a family desirable or undesirable genes by bringing all genes to a homozygous state. If the fancier was unfortunate enough to choose incorrectly in his original stock, then the task of breeding out the undesirable characteristics may prove totally impossible or it may take years and so it does in most cases. In the hands of a visionary such as we have had in the past, it is possible to conclude that an inbred family can be purified, in which case the offspring would be almost identical in appearance or retain other valuable characteristics, equally and ultimately, very valuable stock birds. In addition. Such a family would be highly desirable for outcrossing because of their homozygosity. The goal is to achieve a standard of excellence within the limits of a pure line first. Very few fanciers anywhere have ever really established their own family of birds into what a biologist or geneticist would consider a pure line, The most basic reason is that a concerted effort must be employed over a great many generations to accomplish this end. This is rarely ever done. In the USA, Europe and other Countries etc,. Almost every loft is really a mixture of many families. And to me Bull breeding again, if using a sire that is blood related to all the same Blood line related hens, Father or Brother sire Cock “Bull” is then the same as inbreeding. Again bull breeding is just another term used like Linebreeding that really mean “Inbreeding” Only when the same blood line is used!!! I think one of the best strains and examples of a Inbreed family of birds are the Jensen’s Family strain of Homers. I read a few articles & that Old man knew what he was doing. That’s why his birds are so sort after, but only a bird that is truly from the original Jensen loft holds that true inbreed blood line and others that say they have a Jensen Strains has butterflies in there head, unless they purchased Both a Cock & hen from the true Jensen’s Loft all of these so called Jensen strains you hear folks barking about have been Tainted or outcrossed with other birds and really hold no value… Yeah you may get a few freaks that may perform well! And many such birds are lost again because many breeders don’t continue to adherer to breed such birds back to each other in a well defined inbred program… There are very few breeders that have and maintain a inbreed breeding Program, many start but truly never finish. Most folks just use the “Best to the Best” breeding type of programs,,, which really means wishing for the Best…!!!… Louie


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## mikel (Jun 9, 2011)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> Inbreeding has and always will be the key to all progress breeding of superior livestock of any kind. Again by definition, inbreeding is the continual mating of individuals of the same related stock. The truly correct form of the word inbreeding designates only the mating between brother and sister or between offspring and parents, daughter/father or son/mother in one or more generations. Please note that nothing else constitutes inbreeding! Linebreeding, therefore, is applied to matings of a degree of consanguinity not included above! In the minds of most breeders today, there is no recognized Distinction or Difference between inbreeding and line breeding what many fanciers commonly refer to as linebreeding is not such set in reality it’s just basically the same.
> Keep in mind that inbreeding favors the production of a selection of criteria a steady continuous build-up of breeding merits that emphasis upon the production of a family. Therefore, it make sense that logically if a breed is to advance, then inbreeding must be the device with which it can be accomplished.
> A word of extreme caution is necessary at this point: Remember that inbreeding is a tool to an end only for your self, it is a special purpose tool in and of itself, and it cannot create anything new. It can only fix in a family desirable or undesirable genes by bringing all genes to a homozygous state. If the fancier was unfortunate enough to choose incorrectly in his original stock, then the task of breeding out the undesirable characteristics may prove totally impossible or it may take years and so it does in most cases. In the hands of a visionary such as we have had in the past, it is possible to conclude that an inbred family can be purified, in which case the offspring would be almost identical in appearance or retain other valuable characteristics, equally and ultimately, very valuable stock birds. In addition. Such a family would be highly desirable for outcrossing because of their homozygosity. The goal is to achieve a standard of excellence within the limits of a pure line first. Very few fanciers anywhere have ever really established their own family of birds into what a biologist or geneticist would consider a pure line, The most basic reason is that a concerted effort must be employed over a great many generations to accomplish this end. This is rarely ever done. In the USA, Europe and other Countries etc,. Almost every loft is really a mixture of many families. And to me Bull breeding again, if using a sire that is blood related to all the same Blood line related hens, Father or Brother sire Cock “Bull” is then the same as inbreeding. Again bull breeding is just another term used like Linebreeding that really mean “Inbreeding” Only when the same blood line is used!!! I think one of the best strains and examples of a Inbreed family of birds are the Jensen’s Family strain of Homers. I read a few articles & that Old man knew what he was doing. That’s why his birds are so sort after, but only a bird that is truly from the original Jensen loft holds that true inbreed blood line and others that say they have a Jensen Strains has butterflies in there head, unless they purchased Both a Cock & hen from the true Jensen’s Loft all of these so called Jensen strains you hear folks barking about have been Tainted or outcrossed with other birds and really hold no value… Yeah you may get a few freaks that may perform well! And many such birds are lost again because many breeders don’t continue to adherer to breed such birds back to each other in a well defined inbred program… There are very few breeders that have and maintain a inbreed breeding Program, many start but truly never finish. Most folks just use the “Best to the Best” breeding type of programs,,, which really means wishing for the Best…!!!… Louie


noted,i'll keep that in mind and cross my finger that i bring out the good genes and not the bad ones from our cock,thanks


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Well put Louie.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In my circle, brother to sister, or father to daughter, or for that matter, mother to son is inbreeding as you are breeding to close relatives. I always thought the term "Line Breeding" was a misnomer as it is commonly used. In the example you list above of the sire to the daughter/grand daughter, say you do pair the Sire to the Daughter, and then say you pair the resulting Granddaughter back to the Sire, who is going to say that the resulting daughter/grand daughter is the product of line breeding, and the bird is not inbreed ? So, for all practical purposes, the term line breeding is fairly useless IMHO, when it comes to discussing genetics.


That is why I said linebreeding is inbreeding.

There is a difference in genetics and philosophy between linebreeding and inbreeding.

Linebreeding, you try to concentrate the genes of either the male or female by continuing to "line breed" to that side. The subsequent "linebred" offsprings will carry more and more of the one parent and less of the other, until it is as close to that parent as possible, genetically. In this process, you are trying to duplicate the original mother or father by increasing it's genes and diminishing the other.

Inbreeding, you are preserving both sides as that cross, as all the resulting generations will be 50/50.

These two terms help differentiate between the two methods.


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