# avian pox



## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

out of curiosity. when a pigeon has pox virus how long does it take to be immunised to the virus


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Once they have gone thru the 6 to 8 week period of isolation after innoculation they are then immune and no longer contagious.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

if they caught the virus do they have to be 6 to 8 weeks in isolation


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you don't want the other birds to catch it, then you should isolate. This is
where spraying the feathers helps in terms of passing through a vector.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi Fp, spraying the feathers - what do you mean.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Is there an antibiotic to fight the secondary infection which i can easily mix with water and give?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Warriec,

I remember talking to you in the past about the vector issue where you live.
If you can spray your birds to keep biting insects away, and additionally screen
them out of their living areas, then the pigeon fly will not be able to pass it 
from one bird to another.

Regarding secondary infections, the one that you would want to treat for 
as a precautionary would be Trichomoniasis, so either Ronidazole or Metronidazole.

Do you have a pox bird that you are concerned about having a secondary infection right now and if 
so what are the symptoms? Do you think it to be bacterial?

If you keep pox birds separated from the rest of the loft, and wash their feeding/watering bowls 
separately with 1/2cup of bleach to one gallon of 
water, this solution will kill the virus from being passed through the utensils.
Keep the living area clean. If there are boils or lesions, remove the feathers from the area 
surrounding the boil or lesion and keep them clean & dry w/peroxide.

Separating the birds and utensils, washing things separately using bleach,
and making sure that you wash your hands before and after handling the sick
birds will help not to spread the virus to uninfected birds in addition to not
bringing anything new to the birds w/compromised immune systems by carrying something into them.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I currently have a quarantine cage and i have 2 young there. nun aged 5 weeks and a common aged 4 weeks. Nun is on the way to recovery but the other is not doing too well

something i read in this forum about secondary infection which now is my main concern. I figure that if there is no secondary infection then there is less mortality. 

what is the best way to controll pigeon flys. i have stopped lice and mites and all other parasites.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> I currently have a quarantine cage and i have 2 young there. nun aged 5 weeks and a common aged 4 weeks. Nun is on the way to recovery but the other is not doing too well
> 
> something i read in this forum about secondary infection which now is my main concern. I figure that if there is no secondary infection then there is less mortality.
> 
> what is the best way to controll pigeon flys. i have stopped lice and mites and all other parasites.


Pigeon Fly is best stopped by treating the loft when cleaning and allowing to dry & clear of fumes before letting the birds back in. Spraying or dusting the birds with the topicals I mentioned before to you and treating them w/either Ivermectin or Moxidectin (Avermectin Family). Treating them w/the Avermectin family will keep something in the blood stream so that if they
get through your first line of defense, that is the treated living area and feathers and bite your bird(s), the fly will drop dead because the Ivermectin
or Moxidectin is in the bloodstream.

If the other bird is failing, it really needs to get supplemental feedings. You
could treat w/Metronidazole which will deal w/canker (Trichomoniasis) and
anaerobic bacteria, but please make sure that you start aumenting the
food intake by tubing or what ever system you use when feeding a sick bird.
It sounds like this bird really needs this. Also, my vet recommended a higher
protein intake while the bird was sick w/pox. 

Sometimes folks double up on Baytril and Metronidazole for infections, but
I'm just not sure from what your describing that the bird is failing because of
a bacterial infection as you haven't really described anything beyond 'failing'.
If you can be more specific, this would help.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

how is ivermectin given. i suspect a secondary infection somewhere. ]]Metrinidazole - is this the generic name or off the counter name


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can use Google, right?

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/metronidazole.html

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> how is ivermectin given. i suspect a secondary infection somewhere. ]]Metrinidazole - is this the generic name or off the counter name


Metronidazole=Flagyl=Fishzole:these are some of the names it can be purchase
under.

If you get Ivermectin Injectable it may be given on the back of the neck or down the throat. If you can get Moxidectin, it is considered as effective w/a wider safety margin. You will need to inquire locally as to which of the two
are available and in what format. They are both from the Avermectin family.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

i was only able to find this and it comes in a gell base. how do i use it


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I started applying this cream to where the pox lesions are. am i doin the correct thing


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is a cream for canker and I don't know if applying it to canker lesions would be enough without giving something also by mouth.
It won't do anything to pox though.

Reti


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I also found a place to get Ivermectin, its reffered as ivomec here and its used to cure demotic mange in dogs. does this stop parasites and how much do i have to inject the pigeon. can i inject 3 week old young with it


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The metronidazole cream does have a fair amount of drying action, but it's action is anti-bacterial & Trichomonad specific as far as I know. It's a good
thing to have on hand, Warriec, I have the cream myself, but you need the pill or powder that can be taken orally for canker/Trichomoniasis. It is sold under the names of Metronidazole, Flagyl or Fishzole. See if you can get that and members can help you with the dosing. You should probably get a free membership w/IVIS:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=185102&postcount=1

This has the formulary at the website that is listed in Clinical Avian Medicine,
you would look it up at their site after joining under Therapeutic Agents.

If you can't get Metronidazole, see if you can get Ronidazole, it's from the same family and treats canker.

I think you mentioned in an earlier thread that you had lesions as opposed to boils, either way, these external symptoms of Poxvirus can be dabbed w/Peroxide to keep clean and dry, I think this is a better choice than the 
creme and there will be no residue per se left behind. It's also less expensive
and you can save the gel for a situation where that specifically is needed.

It depends on the Ivomec and that isn't enough information to help you with
the route of administation or dose. If it is the injectable 1% sterile solution,
the dose is two drops down the throat. I do this by making sure there is only
2 drops in the dropper when placing in the throat so that I can't have an accident. If you haven't purchased yet, and you could get Moxidectin, it's considered as effective w/a wider margin of safety. But either way, having
one of them in your medicine chest is a good idea, Warriec.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

This is so confusing. Back to the pharmacy i will go in the morning.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You'll get familiar w/it in time. Go to the link I gave you and get a membership,
then you can start looking medications up and reading about them. This is very helpful in terms of learning what's available in general and what to use when.

Pox is a virus, that's the main thing you want to keep in mind. Then when
one understands how it's spread, one can minimize exposure if and when
it enters a loft.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

fp,

Do you know if the cream is available at any of our pigeon supply stores? That is a very good one to have on hand.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

just to reconfirm. Lesions on the wings and anus are sign of pox. also when i squeeze a lesion a millet size yellow ball pops out. This is pox right.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> just to reconfirm. Lesions on the wings and anus are sign of pox. also when i squeeze a lesion a millet size yellow ball pops out. This is pox right.



Holy cow, Warriec! Don't squeeze the lesions! What you want w/pox is for 
the virus to remain encapsulated in the body of the host while providing supportive regimines. If a boil pops up, you don't squeeze it, you allow it to 
remain encapsulated in the skin that is containing the boil. For lesions that
are naturally open you want to encourage drying. You don't want body fluids 
exiting the host and becoming a problem for other birds directly or by carrying
the contminant to others via whatever route. Another reason for not wanting
to break/squeeze/open the lesion/boil is that you are inviting new tears in the skin which is an invitation for bacteria to visit the area. It just seems so
not to be a good idea. We want to dry them out and pray they go away.
And they will--because it is a virus w/a life expectancy.

As for whether they appear on the wings or anus.....I had wing boils and spine boils (my birds did, that is!), if I think mechanically on the topic, I would
think that where the boils or lesions appear will have to do w/the strain of the virus and the systemic weaknesses of the individual bird.

I hope I've answered your questions.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

A local poultry doctor doctor said to seperate the bird and squeeze the boils and to get all yellow balls and remove the yellow vocanoe and apply iodine or betadine as and when the boil pops up. I have been trying this for some time and it has been working but its tough and messy. Although the growth rate is slowed down the birds do make a full recovery eventually. Motality almost nil.

As for the boils in the eyes, beak and feet. i just apply iodine and it drys up. Yes, i think the key is drying up.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Have you heard of jenson's violet - suppose to be very good at drying wounds. its purple colour. Iodine has a burning effect but also drys. which is the better of the 2.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> A local poultry doctor doctor said to seperate the bird and squeeze the boils and to get all yellow balls and remove the yellow vocanoe and apply iodine or betadine as and when the boil pops up. I have been trying this for some time and it has been working but its tough and messy. Although the growth rate is slowed down the birds do make a full recovery eventually. Motality almost nil.
> 
> As for the boils in the eyes, beak and feet. i just apply iodine and it drys up. Yes, i think the key is drying up.



Please don't use iodine or Hydrogen Peroxide on the lesions near the eyes. I was going to suggest that either Treesa or Reti can help you w/something herbal/natural that you can get locally for the eye region.

As for the local poultry doctor saying to squeeze them, he is probably
trying to avoid the contents of the boils becoming carcinogenic if unresolved,
though I don't think that method is considered a good strategy as it could
encourage more growths by spreading to new areas or birds. 

The boils and lesions should resolve on their own and just suck back in/fall off, or for the lesions, close up. But they may stay there for weeks as the 
virus 'runs it's course' in the meantime which means being visible for weeks while the virus is still present in the system.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> Have you heard of jenson's violet - suppose to be very good at drying wounds. its purple colour. Iodine has a burning effect but also drys. which is the better of the 2.


Again, for the boils and lesions, if you can get your hands on Hydrogen Peroxide, it's what the vet I brought Diesel to recommended. It's inexpensive
and easily obtained at supermarkets, drugstores, even at convenience stores here. But the eye region needs something else all together. Do you have herbal stores there or places where herbal remedies may be purchased?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> fp,
> 
> Do you know if the cream is available at any of our pigeon supply stores? That is a very good one to have on hand.


Hi Treesa, I'm sorry for being a bit late to get back to you on this one. I needed to dig up a link as it is not at the Pigeon Supply Houses and I couldn't find it at medsmex either.

I have the cream and it was obtained from a prescription from the Vet. It's a good sized tube and will last a while. But there are some online sources where it can be purchased through w/out a prescription. Here's a link to one such source:

http://www.rxmedshere.com/without/prescription/Metrogel.shtml

The creme I have is also 0.75%, the same as the gel shown in the link
and is manufactured by fougera and called Metronidazole Topical Cream. Hope this helps you and anyone else interested in getting the product.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

fp,

Thank you for the link, I appreciate your time spent locating it.



warriec,

I am sorry you are having such a time of it with pox, wouldn't it be better all around if you could work on getting a supply of the pox vaccine, and do other preventive maintenance to rid your birds of pox. Perhaps you can find and have a whole bunch of it shipped and just refrigerate it and use when needed.

You are putting these birds thru uneccesary cruelty using iodine in the eye, and squeezing the lesions, that is painful to the birds. You can use Colloidal silver for the eye. You can use tee trea oil, with a Q tip and apply that on any lesion around the feet and such, but not near the face. You would use colloidal silver for the eye area and face.

I really feel for you, but I feel more for the suffering you may be putting the birds thru.

1. See if you can find someone to bring you the Pox vaccine, from resources outside your area, 

2.Put some screen netting on open areas of your coop, and keep all doors and aviaries closed at night.

3.Use citronella and other organic agents to repel mosquitos.

4. Do not breed your birds during the months when mosquitos are around in great numbers, that means late spring and summer.

5. Do not keep any open water containers around the birds at night.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Its very difficult to practice what you are saying Treesa because I live in a tropical country with temp & high humidity.

My lofts are all mosquitoe netted. how long should i stop breeding for to get rid of the pox virus. 

If I stop breeding for a few months willthe virus die away. Its only the young who are getting infected not the adults.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I was also going to recommend the colloidal silver for the eyes. I have used it with great results on my birds for eye infections and pox lesions.
Give it try if you can get hold of it.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi warriec,

I'm sure it is difficult, but I live in a hot humid area too.

Do you have high humidity and high temps all year round? 

If not, then stop breeding during the mosquito months, the hot/wet ones. Stopping breeding will not rid you of pox, but it won't be as bad if you breed in months of less heat and humidity.Less heat and humidity means you will have less mosquitos and less chances of giving the babies pox.

If you stop breeding it will stop infection among your youngsters, until you breed again. But the months when heavy mosquito infestation is likely, breeding should be avoided.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Its all year round, humidity @ 90%, temperature @ 32 degrees celicius. perfect mosquito habitat. Since the mosquito nets were put up it has not been so bad but all the young do get infect around 3 weeks of age. some if they are strong enough are put into the quarantine cage until they are cured.

I have been having some success looking after the infected birds. I think my probelm is pigeon flys - they are the vecter. 

Please tell me if i am right or wrong here. Pox travels only by wounds, can it be transmitted via the parents feeding, what age can the pox vaccine be given to the young birds - i need to give at 2 to 3 weeks of age.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I just bought Ivermectin its 1% ivermectin W/V. its says to give .5ml per 25kg of animal weight. How much and how should i give this to the pigeons.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I had to vaccine my birds asap before the rains start. 1 gave 0.01 ml per bird using an insulin syringe for all the birds. I pinched the skin on the neck and injected into the skin. I hope i did it right.

When should i see the results (no parasites). Does it kill feather lice also.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

one more small thing, the gel based cream of metrodizole does a very good job in healing and drying.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Here is some information that can help answer your questions on pox:

http://www.unbc.ca/nlui/wildlife_diseases_bc/avian_pox.htm


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

That site is super. Have i vaccinated the birds right? when will these parasite & pigeon flys die. I think controlling the vector is important. I have about 2 months to get the right as i will be going to India for a few months


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm not an Ivermectin user, you will need to get someone else to answer that. I know it kills any blood sucking mites and worms in the intestines, even gape worms, not sure about pigeon flies. It might keep the pigeon flies dying until the Ivermectin is no longer viable. But Ivermectin is something you would use only a couple times a year.

I think pigeon flies should be controlled thru proper cleaning and with pigeon sprays and powders, like seven dust. Also, the birds should be allowed to bathe regularly. 

I have found several sprays with Permethrin that work well and the pigeon flies drop off within a half hour,- on rehab birds that I got.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Isnt bathing bad when birds are having pox. I am hoping for the best. 

Hi Fp,

I know you are a ivomec user, please give me yr precious advice


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> …………If I stop breeding for a few months willthe virus die away. Its only the young who are getting infected not the adults.


Warriec, this is where hygiene plays a very important role in controlling a viral or bacterial agent causing illness in the loft. Many of these microbes have a life span in the environment far longer than the length of the disease once contracted. It’s for this reason that loft hygiene plays such an important role.

A simple, easily obtained solution for cleaning that will kill the pox virus and other nasties is ½ cup of bleach to one gallon of water, this being the recommendation from the Vet as some loft cleaners will not kill the Poxvirus. Separate sick birds and clean their utensils separately. These are just critical steps to controlling the Poxvirus.




warriec said:


> Its all year round, humidity @ 90%, temperature @ 32 degrees celicius. perfect mosquito habitat. Since the mosquito nets were put up it has not been so bad but all the young do get infect around 3 weeks of age. some if they are strong enough are put into the quarantine cage until they are cured.
> 
> I have been having some success looking after the infected birds. I think my probelm is pigeon flys - they are the vecter.
> 
> Please tell me if i am right or wrong here. Pox travels only by wounds, can it be transmitted via the parents feeding, what age can the pox vaccine be given to the young birds - i need to give at 2 to 3 weeks of age.


In a sense, if you consider the bite that an insect inflicts a wound, then yes. It is transmitted by blood. It is also shed in the droppings of birds who have or once had the virus. It lingers in the environment for a long time as a viable organism.




warriec said:


> I just bought Ivermectin its 1% ivermectin W/V. its says to give .5ml per 25kg of animal weight. How much and how should i give this to the pigeons. .


Warriec, if you can, why not take a picture of the packaging as you did w/the Metronidazole Gel and post that?




warriec said:


> I had to vaccine my birds asap before the rains start. 1 gave 0.01 ml per bird using an insulin syringe for all the birds. I pinched the skin on the neck and injected into the skin. I hope i did it right.
> 
> When should i see the results (no parasites). Does it kill feather lice also.


Ivomec is an internal/external parasitical treatment. If you choose to vaccinate, you will need to make sure that you only vaccinate healthy birds and stick around to keep an eye on them after doing so.

You may/may not see results from the Ivomec within 24 hours, but it is none
the less on duty and in the blood stream. It is advertised as killing lice.



warriec said:


> That site is super. Have i vaccinated the birds right? when will these parasite & pigeon flys die. I think controlling the vector is important. I have about 2 months to get the right as i will be going to India for a few months


Here’s a link to Doctor’s Corner:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/formulary.htm

Just under the 'heading' there’s a picture of a bird being given an injection. Notice the direction and angle of the needle. 

The mechanical part of dealing w/hygiene is incredibly important, so who you choose to replace you is going to be critical as well as how you train them. The pigeon fly lays its eggs away from the bird itself, this is why cleaning and spraying the loft and birds every other week is going to be a first line of defense for you especially given the climate that you live in. This is very important.

You have just given them a parasitical treatment. You may not notice the effect immediately, but the results are fairly immediate anyway. Here’s a link on Pigeon Fly:

http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/livestock/pigeon_fly.htm



warriec said:


> Isnt bathing bad when birds are having pox. I am hoping for the best.
> 
> Hi Fp,
> 
> I know you are a ivomec user, please give me yr precious advice


Ohhh, Warriec, flattery will get you….

You can give Ivomec treatments once every 21 days, but you would have to ask yourself if this is the best you have to offer your birds as it will tax their livers in the long run. I can see in crisis mode, using this until the loft hygiene has taken place and you’ve treated the birds, but as a long term solution, it will most likely place a tax on the liver that will shorten the lifespan of the birds. You will have to weigh the pros and cons of any treatment that you give your birds and think about the long term effects of the choices

Yes, bathing while birds are sick w/PoxVirus is a no-no, it will help spread the disease.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*


warriec said:



Isnt bathing bad when birds are having pox. I am hoping for the best.

Click to expand...

*


warriec said:


> We were talking about remedies/prevention for pigeon flies, not pox. Yes, I would not allow any sick bird to bathe, they need to be isolated.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I am happy, injected the correct way (behind the neck) any other place i could not grab any skin. Thanks for the advise


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> I am happy, injected the correct way (behind the neck) any other place i could not grab any skin. Thanks for the advise


Good deal, warriec  

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

opinion and advise needed.

If i stopped breeding for 6 months (no babies for 6 months) and sold or gave away all the fertile eggs will the pox virus die down?

Will the fertile egg carry the pox virus to the babies?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

warriec said:


> opinion and advise needed.
> 
> If i stopped breeding for 6 months (no babies for 6 months) and sold or gave away all the fertile eggs will the pox virus die down?
> 
> Will the fertile egg carry the pox virus to the babies?


I don't know about the pox being passed to the egg. Can you separate your birds? That would be best. Stop them from not only breeding/raising babies, but from laying eggs all together. I personally wouldn't give and certainly not sell eggs from any birds that are sick. You would be best to just throw out the eggs if they must be laid and replace with dummy eggs. 
But, like I said, the BEST thing would be to separate your cocks and hens.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

thats a good point, for how long"? i would like the disease to end all together.

I heard that the diseas is prevelent in all the lofts in sri lanka


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

warriec said:


> thats a good point, for how long"? i would like the disease to end all together.
> 
> I heard that the diseas is prevelent in all the lofts in sri lanka


I don't know that a specific time table would be in order. Until it's over I guess. I know that when we vaccinate our birds for Pox, they are locked down for at least three weeks. But they don't get a full blown case of Pox. Just a mild form and then it's over. The good thing is that once your birds are over this, then it's over. 
I would separate the birds, give them plenty of feed and clean water. Don't allow them to take a bath, as this spreads the pox to their eyes and all over. I would just watch them and when you think the disease has worked it way through the flock, then maybe you could put them back together. 
I also wouldn't introduce any new birds at all. 
Can you not get the vaccine over there?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> opinion and advise needed.
> 
> If i stopped breeding for 6 months (no babies for 6 months) and sold or gave away all the fertile eggs will the pox virus die down?
> 
> Will the fertile egg carry the pox virus to the babies?


According to some sources, no. There will be a continued shedding
of the virus in the feces, intermittently over time, in addition to the virus in the environment itself remaining active, though I don't recall what kind of flooring you have. There seems to be some differing of opinion on the topic of how long a bird will shed the virus, some sources believe it to be in the range of years. This is where loft hygiene and vaccination come in to play and are very important. Also, if your birds are overall healthy birds, they are likely not to succumb to feces exposure. It seems to not be an issue here other than the one pigeon fly who jumped ship from a baby rescue onto another rescue. No other birds here have contracted the virus via the "less"
invasive exposure as opposed to blood stream via vector.

fp


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