# Chasing the pot of gold (part two)



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello all, 

I wrote the original article “Chasing the pot of gold” back in 1995. The words came straight from the heart and while it upset and angered some. Others agreed with my premise that too many people had lost sight of what pigeon racing was really all about. The original article can be found in the archives on this site and in the archives in the online Winning magazine. In reading over some of what I have read recently in this forum and even more so in other magazines, I thought it was time to address some of the issues again. 

I saw this trend almost tear apart one combine back in 1995 and it is again showing its ugly head although in a slightly different form again 6 years later. I think it’s probably prevalent in some form wherever you go. Now mind you all, I am a police officer here in Southern California (hence the handle lawman) and prior to that I was in the US Army and US Army reserves for 10 years. I am also the President of my Club and I’m the current President of the 395 Concourse here in Southern California. I've been flying birds for almost 30 years, in two different states and have belonged to three different Combines and two different Concourses here in So. California.

Back in 2005 I wrote the original “Chasing the pot of Gold”. I wrote about how we had “money men" visit our area all the time from the Orient. They pay a minimum of $500.00 per bird no matter the bloodline or position, so long as the bird has received a diploma. We also have fanciers who in the past could take winning positions in our area almost at will. They began to make most if not all of their money by selling their birds to these “money men”. 

They had forgotten all they knew about being pigeon fliers and had become nothing more than feather merchants in my book. They no longer tried to help out the new adult fliers and junior fliers. As one of these fliers said to me, “So long as they remain dumb, I’ll continue to win”. 

Over several years these fliers had sold off all their best youngsters each year by the lure of the “easy money”. By doing so they are no longer able to maintain their colony’s at the level they once were. They had seen drastic declines in the quality of their birds and in the number of wins they could take each season. In one case, a fancier who could take top ten positions in almost any given race, at any distance, had not been able to consistently get on the first page of the race sheet for the last three to four seasons. 

At the same time younger fliers had come up and were doing the majority of the winning. They had been able to do so by choosing wisely and slowly increasing the quality of their birds. They had also become better at all levels of the sport from training, loft conditions, to giving proper medications and feed. Over time the money men no longer wished to see their "old friends”, but wanted to buy birds directly from the new “winning lofts”.

back in 2002-2003 Exotic Newcastle disease hit the region here in Southern California with a vengeance. It was caused by the illegal transportation of gaming birds across the US/Mexico border according to the federal government. 

Now here we are in 2011 and in part because of the lure of easy money from one loft races and special races with large prize pools. We have begun to be overrun by those, well with the people who in many cases were involved one way or another in the chicken fighting that brought Exotic Newcastle to our door steps in 2002-2003; some may still be although I have no direct confirmation of that. If I did they would be in jail or pending court hearings regarding their actions. (Chicken fighting is in my opinion is the most inhumane and despicable form of gaming out there, it lies there right alongside of dog fighting).

Now mind you all I have no problem with those who have truly reformed their lives and came to pigeon racing because of the love of the birds and racing. I believe however that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Now many of the mob fliers of the past that had to win at all costs have been replaced in large part by those of similar mindsets (the aforementioned reformed chicken fighters). Who believe if they produce enough birds and say fly a hundred or more to the race that they are bound to have birds return in the points. 

What matter is it that they have less than half of their birds left at the end of the racing seasons. They will have all been breed by or be down out of their top bloodlines, (at least that is what they will claim). Many will have been in the top twenty percent and can now be sold to the feather merchants at $500.00 each. 

Some of these birds will be sold to unsuspecting new fliers for far more money. Only to have those poor individuals find out that what their money bought was nothing but junk. As the birds cannot reproduce themselves let alone breed anything better. 

My question to all of you on this forum is simply; how do we go about teaching the new fliers or our own youth to avoid these types of individuals. When all they see is the sparkle of fake gold (green backs here in the US) being flashed in their faces. 

Unfortunately they also see in some cases these very individuals rising up and becoming leaders in their respective clubs, combines and concourses etcetera. 

Simply because they are winning more than their share, even if their methods are in some cases questionable. 

Have any of you dealt with these types of things in your own area and if so; how do we fight this and keep our sport alive as a family activity in the face of these types of individuals?


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## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

Reminds me of the fable of the dog who saw a reflection of his bone in the water and dives in only to loose his bone...ahhh greed

I will say I am a new flyer and will be flying youngbirds in the 395 concourse this season and have been gifted a few breeders from a few different members as well as loaned some by others. If it were not for guys like Tim Ross, Scott Lauffer, Carl Cartarelli, Craig Coutes I'd have given up and gone back to racing atv's. So thanks to those guys and good luck to the 395 Concourse...watch out here I come

drawing a parallel to racing atv's...I've raced against dirty racers and cheaters and let me tell you NOTHING is better than winning as an underdog or from a disadvantage.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Many clubs have a limit on how many birds you can enter in a race. And some you basicly pay for the BOX and can put up to forty birds in. So setting limits on how many birds per each race then 1 person can not fly 100 birds at a time. Raising a 100 birds 200 300 no problems there IF selection is being made. As the birds not put on the team are removed from the loft So building even a good 25 30 bird team takes selection.. People do see money when someone wants to pay. Does it hurt the sport well not really As those people become dealers And others stay flyers. And even good flyers will sell a bird here and there. Many people want so much to win They buy. they get frustated and buy some more When The clubs should let it be known Start right start slow and it takes a few years to get better. BUT clubs want numbers in there flyers So its hurry raise some birds and fly the races. When it should be for new people work with them the first 2 years as they build there teams and Not worry about another flyer That way the person learns and gets off to a better start Because the old saying goes we must learn to walk before we can ever run. So perhaps clubs need to look into cultivating new people. And not worry about the dealers as You said they soon began to lose the races So they ened up paying for selling therre best. Money is nice but enjoying a hobby is better. Sometimes done right can a have a little of both.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

I don't have an answer to the question. I do know that greed is not curable. I will guarantee you one thing. If ever someone shows up to a race with 200 + birds I'm pulling mine out of the race. Not because I don't stand a chance of winning but because there is no way that person has vaccinated all those birds. These are the folks who have no type of management for their birds. They just let the eggs fall and hatch and then show up with all those birds.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

atvracinjason said:


> Reminds me of the fable of the dog who saw a reflection of his bone in the water and dives in only to loose his bone...ahhh greed
> 
> I will say I am a new flyer and will be flying youngbirds in the 395 concourse this season and have been gifted a few breeders from a few different members as well as loaned some by others. If it were not for guys like Tim Ross, Scott Lauffer, Carl Cartarelli, Craig Coutes I'd have given up and gone back to racing atv's. So thanks to those guys and good luck to the 395 Concourse...watch out here I come
> 
> drawing a parallel to racing atv's...I've raced against dirty racers and cheaters and let me tell you NOTHING is better than winning as an underdog or from a disadvantage.


Hi Racinjason, 

I havent had the pleasure of meeting you yet. I can tell you one thing for sure you have named off some excellant sponsors. I wish you good luck and may the wind always be at your birds backs.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Once money is at stake it is a different ballgame. It is not a hobby anymore. It is business. And business is cutthroat.

This hobby vs sport conflict has been occurring in any sports. Playing a Saturday/Sunday sport at the park is not the same thing as playing professionally. Some people divide people into 2 groups. One does it for the love of the game. The other one for money. They have forgotten that it is possible to do both.


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## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

Thank you sir, I'm sure our paths will cross this season...looking forward to meeting you and the rest of the concourse members.

Jason Wirth


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

rpalmer said:


> I don't have an answer to the question. I do know that greed is not curable.


I'm glad I wasn't greedy and looking for the money when I was a teenager. I had a bird my Dun Gizzle that flew really good for me when I was 15. This bird flew evey week that year since I only had a small team and all I wanted to do was race so he had to race. Well he was always in the top 10% with his best finish being second by only a few seconds in a race that the winds were not in my favor at all. I had so many ppl try to buy that bird from me I had a few offers over $500 which was a good amount of money for a 15 year old. But I wouldn't sell it was my first really good bird. He just recently past on but I'll never forget him. I also put one of his grand daughters in a show and sombody offered me good money for her because she just looked so nice. She was a nice Yellow hen and saidly she's past on as well. But the reason I'm glad I didn't sell either one of them is they were my foundation of the birds I've won with the last few years. Just the other day at the club one of the guys who wanted to buy the Dun Grizzle was talking to another flyer about this bird that I had way back when that was so good but I wasted it because I mated it to this peice of crap yellow. I did it more for color then anything I liked color when I was a kid. Little did he know that the bird who won me $5,000 in th ITFA race last year is a great great grandson of that Dun Griz when mated to that yellow and I've gotten a whole family of Yellows all down from them that have bred me winners especially at 300 miles. So I could have sold him for $500 back then but I wouldn't have 50% of the birds I have back there now and I wouldn't have won that $5,000 last season.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

RodSD said:


> Once money is at stake it is a different ballgame. It is not a hobby anymore. It is business. And business is cutthroat.
> 
> This hobby vs sport conflict has been occurring in any sports. Playing a Saturday/Sunday sport at the park is not the same thing as playing professionally. Some people divide people into 2 groups. One does it for the love of the game. The other one for money. They have forgotten that it is possible to do both.


I do it for both it's nice winning the money but what I like more is the feeling I get when the birds get home and I feel they did a good job and the feeling I get when I win and then again when I get my trophies or plaques.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I do it for both it's nice winning the money but what I like more is the feeling I get when the birds get home and I feel they did a good job and the feeling I get when I win and then again when I get my trophies or plaques.


Agreed, I like to win as well everyone does! even thou I do it using small teams (no more than twenty at the beginning of the season and usually more like ten) I am still able to see my birds do extremely well on the national level. My brother and sister in law as well fly smaller teams. In 2010 my sister in law who only few 5-10 birds most of the old bird season took the AU GI Joe award for middle distance and I was (let’s see if memory serves me correctly) 30th overall for middle distance. So not bad at all considering that these results were against thousands of lofts and some truly top notch 
competition. 

The real issue as I see it is simply; how do we go about stopping the game fighter crowd from becoming a part of the pigeon racing culture. 

How do we stop them from influencing and becoming leaders within our sport?

Especially if they are in any way still involved in that life style?


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## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

Keep your friends close and keep you enemies closer
We live in an area that has a LOT of cock fighting...still happening...despite recent efforts to bring it under control
I've always thought education was the key to preventing crime and or recidivism, however I think in this case it is very important to look at the "culture" around cock fighting and realise its a long standing "tradition" in the mexican/hispanic community(I'm not saying that other ethnic backgrounds are not envolved...they are)...I don't believe punishment is stiff enough, but its hard to punish someone who is not in the country legally. 
My best answer is to welcome those individuals...as a lawman you must believe that people can reform or change thier lives? A strong club with well knowledged members might just be a GREAT place for these men/women to refocus thier efforts.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

atvracinjason said:


> Keep your friends close and keep you enemies closer
> We live in an area that has a LOT of cock fighting...still happening...despite recent efforts to bring it under control
> I've always thought education was the key to preventing crime and or recidivism, however I think in this case it is very important to look at the "culture" around cock fighting and realise its a long standing "tradition" in the mexican/hispanic community(I'm not saying that other ethnic backgrounds are not envolved...they are)...I don't believe punishment is stiff enough, but its hard to punish someone who is not in the country legally.
> My best answer is to welcome those individuals...as a lawman you must believe that people can reform or change thier lives? A strong club with well knowledged members might just be a GREAT place for these men/women to refocus thier efforts.


Well Jason I agree with you to a point. 

Some people can or will make the choice to change their behavior and thereby change their lives.

I can tell you that I have friends who when they were younger got involved in fighting exotic birds.

In at least one case the individual got caught and paid the penalty for being involved in this type of sport. To his credit he is no longer involved in any type of chicken fighting, at least nothing that I am aware of. 

I believe he is the exception rather than the rule. As you said it is very prevalent in many cultures and is definitely not limited to just our southern cousins.

Remember the Federal Government listed the illegal game fighting crowd with being the source of Exotic Newcastle in Southern California back in 2002-2003. The disease costs millions to contain and spread to several other states before it could be completely stopped. Not to mention the number of birds that were destroyed during the outbreak. So far it appears the Newcasle outbreaks are moving south (in part I believe it to be due to the extremily cold weather we have been having) but it is only a matter of time before it breaks out here again. 

Again I agree with you that people can change. But at the same time I can tell you I would have no problem arresting anyone I caught fighting any type of animals. 

My question to you is not so much from the legal standpoint of how to deal with these types of in dividuals (that part is easy) Arrest them and throw away the key- ops sorry they can hav e their day in court first. 

My question to and everyone else would be simply this; how do we as pigeon organizations deal with those who continue to be involved in fighting of any animals (especially game birds)?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well...most clubs/combines have admissions standards, you could go so far as to run a background check (its not that hard anymore) and if something like that pops up, or if its readily known about that individual simply do not vote them into the club/combine.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

What legal money is at stake at the club leval?


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

The Federal Government have been brain washed by Animal rights activist to much. They made them believed that the cockfighting crowd was the source of Exotic Newcastle in Southern California. Did any one ever think that there are migratory birds that migrates around the globe every year that can also bring those diseases! How about those wild ferals and wild birds did any one ever have an idea that they could also possibly bring those diseases? did any body know that you can not bring rooster from Mexico to USA legally? So how did they figure out that the fighting crowd brought this Exotic Newcastle in Southern California if they don't have enough evidence to prove it? Did any one of you knows that the Exotic Newcastle in Southern California in 2002-2003 started after Animal activist lost the lawsuit against the cockfighting crowd?

Now lets go to banning former cockfighting people in the club, combine, AU and IF. IMHO banning this people will not benefit the pigeon sport. Why? 40-50% of pigeon flyer here in the United State of America are former cockfighters and some might still be active in some states where cockfighting is Legal. Think of it. Ban those 40-50% and don't accept former cockfighters that want's to start a new life in pigeon sport and let's see how fast this pigeon sport dies.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

Let me share this to the people who don't know the HISTORY OF COCKFIGHTING


THE HISTORY OF COCKFIGHTING

Cockfighting has a history which traces back to times before Christ. However, before it even became a sport, the bird was regarded as an admirable animal, drawing respect from men. The fighting cock was a subject of religious worship. The ancient Syrians worshipped the fighting-cock as a deity. The ancient Greeks and Romans associated the fighting-cock with the gods Apollo, Mercury and Mars. Magellan claimed that in Borneo, the bird was so sacred that no one could eat its flesh. In South Canara, the bird claimed to ward off evil demons. In Sumatra, the gamecock was worshipped -- a temple built to it, and rituals performed to honor the deity.

Cockfighting occurred in the temples and the dead bird which lost the battle was prepared to be presented to the deities. The bird would be placed in a gold cauldron, soaked in gums and spices. Then its body was burned on an altar and its ashes were placed in a golden pot or urn.

In the times before Christ, approximately 3,000 years ago during the times of the phoenicians, Hebrews, and Canaanites, cockfighting was popular. Breeding gamecocks for fighting in a pit was considered an art and trading these birds was profitable. In Egypt, in the time of Moses, cockfighting was a favorite pasttime. During the height of Greek civilization, Themistocles -- a general who was preparing to drive away the invading persians -- decided to hold a cockfight the night before the battle to inspire his men by showing the courageous nature of the fighting cock. Persian traders loved to gamble by pitting their fighing birds against each other. They would often carry their birds with them and pit a fight in the marketplaces and trading centers.

In the first century after Christ, Julius Caesar led Rome into enjoying the sport of cockfighting. He was the first citizen of rome to be an enthusiast of the sport. Caesar ultimately introduced cockfighting into England. In the 16th century, cockfighting was flourishing in England. During the time of King Henry VIII, cockfights were held at whitehall palace. The game became a national sport at one point, and exclusive schools were required to teach students the points of cockfighting, such as breeding, walking, and conditioning of the gamecock. At its very height of popularity, even the clergy encouraged the sport. Church yards and inside of the churches were used as an arena for cockfighting. The sport declined in england during the reign of Queen Victoria in the 17th century, when she banned cockfighting with a royal decree. Today, cockfighting is almost nonexistent. However, in the British Isles, there still esixts a breed of gamecocks known as the pyles strain of Charles II that is a highly sought after bird by cockers and breeders.

In spain, cockfighting has existed for the longest period of time. How it arrived is uncertain. Theories point to travelling phoenicians or the conquering moors. Today, cockfighting is a popular sport in Bilbao, Oviedo, Madrid, Barcelon, and Valencia. Many Filipino breeders travel to Spain to obtain ideal birds for breeding. Many gamecocks in the Philippines have a blood strain of Spanish game cocks.

In the United States, famous presidents who were lovers of the game were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, and Abraham Lincoln. It was socially acceptable and encouraged for a gentleman to have a flock of gamecocks and to be an expert on the sport. At one point, the U.S. Became a center for cockfighting activities and events. Cockfights were even held in the committee rooms of the president. It is said that the fighting-cock almost became the national emblem. It lost by one vote to the American eagle. Cockfighting declined when the Civil War started.

A Brief History Of Cockfighting in United States of America.


At one time cockfights were actually held in our nations capitol. President Andrew Jackson kept fighting cocks in the white house stables, employing a man named Jack Freer to feed and train them. Such statesmen as Henry Clay, John C. Calhoun, Martin Van Buren, Governor John Floyd of Virginia, and many others met in the committee rooms of congress to match rooster favorites. George Washington and his friend , Lord Fairfax, were ardent cockers and in Washington's personal effects was found literature on the subject. Both were regular subscribers to a cockfighting magazine published in England. At that time cockfighting was America's National Sport and the fighting cock lost out to the American Eagle as the Seal of the United States by only ONE vote after a bitter battle.

As proof against the contention that cockfighting is cruel: Abraham Lincoln, who loved cockfighting, was so tender hearted that he wouldn't hunt, and as a boy was whipped many times for opening traps to free the animals. As a man , Lincoln attended and refereed many cockfights, thus his nickname Honest Abe. Benjamin Franklin also attended and refereed cockfights. Thomas Jefferson was a breeder and fighter of gamecocks. Other Famous men who were ardent cockers were: Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Themistocles, Queen Elizabeth of England, James 1 and his son Prince Henry, Charles 1, Charles 11, Sir Walter Raleigh and the Duke of Essex.

The oldest Known cockpit in the world is Number Ten Downing Street, Official residence of Winston Churchill, whose ancestor, the Duke of Marlborough, was a famous cock fighter. The original pit was erected there by King Henry V111 and was immortalized in a painting by the famous artist Van Dyck. King James 1 was devoted to cock fighting. Cockfighting has been a compulsory course of instruction in some English schools for more that 1000 years.

Cocks are fought in every state in America. Several times a year tournaments are held in the South. Small tournaments, derbies, and concourses are held every month all over the country during the fighting season, which runs from Thanksgiving to July 4th. Cocks are not fought in the summer due to heat and molt.

Information taken from "Johnson's Breeder's and Cocker's Guide", third edition.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Cock fighting here has been illegal for about 5 to 6 years. And the former owners had to get rid of there fighting chickens. As they can not even own them any more. And several people used to make a few hundred thousand dollars a year fighting and sell there birds. Now they can go to jail. Far as joining and raising pigeons They sure could do worse so I would say the morew the better that convert to pigeons.. Same as when pit bulls were banned from fighting. Pigeons at hobby and or money races Are still the same just money races get you in the money IF you place well enough. Does not mean you have the best birds just your bird did better that race aginst a much smaller group. Where large races spread out gives more credit to the bird and the breeder. But some see it as who won the money. That same bird may have done ok in club or combine But it may not have either. Few people are top breeders. In race or show. We have to large a country and people spread rather deep to have those very large races as belgium And such So one loft races are becoming a proving ground in a way. But good people sell at decent prices, And dealers sell higher and often birds that help little But have pretty papers. Its the curse we live with today The old saying a sucker is born every minute and to to take him. But i guess when people want to pay a high price A person does not mind and say NO I only want this much.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

Animal rights activist frequent theese type sites. Often posing as animal owners (the true animal lovers), and they are here for conflict, and to hopefully find a way to deprive people of thier God giving right to own animals. Beware of who you trust and any of theese type ARA,s are our friends. I dont think anyone should be deprived the right to race pigeons, especially not for something they did before it was illeagal. I could point fingers but its people like some in this thread that should not be able to race pigeons or even have friends for that matter.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

I am dumbfounded at the comparison of dog fighting and Cock fighting. A dog is man's best friend and know one puts their friend into a fight. On the other hand, Cock fighting is just getting dinner ready.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

And I still want to know how pigeon racing at a club leval can be chasing a pot of gold. Legally? Are you meaning the statues on the plaques?


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

*Although this is not the real intent of the direction was trying to go, *

I have to reply to your remarks. Again I want everyone to know that I have no issue with those who have changed their lives and seen the light so to speak. 

Understand I am no tree hugger(wow I've had my own arguements on this very site with those who truely are), but you can ask Michael Vic how he liked his stay in a federal pen if you think animal fighting of any kind is legal. Even if it was allowed in the past and at the beginning of our country’s history, it is not now!

I can tell you I have investigated and arrested people for fighting various types of animals. I have not lost a case yet! And don’t expect I ever will. I can also tell you that every time I’ve been involved in these types of cases, there have always been other illegal activities as well. To include; the illegal sales of guns and drugs, so it is not some harmless sport. 

*Here are some of the Facts*•	Cockfighting is outlawed in all 50 states and is punished as a felony in 39.
•	It is not a felony under California law to be a spectator at a cockfight. This makes it difficult for law enforcement to charge most people caught in cockfighting raids as participants routinely abandon their birds and claim they were only present to watch the fights.
•	Although at a recent cockfighting event near Fresno Ca. A bird handler was fatally wounded by a cock that spurred him in the leg (cutting a vein) as officers attempted to locate an arrest him. The individual bleed out from his injuries prior to being located.

*California Penal Code 597b*

(a)Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), any person who, for amusement or gain, causes any bull, bear, or other animal, not including any dog, to fight with like kind of animal or creature, or causes any animal, including any dog, to fight with a different kind of animal or creature, or with any human being, or who, for amusement or gain, worries or injures any bull, bear, dog, or other animal, or causes any bull, bear, or other animal, not including any dog, to worry or injure each other, or any person who permits the same to be done on any premises under his or her charge or control, or any person who aids or abets the fighting or worrying of an animal or creature, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(b)Any person who, for amusement or gain, causes any cock to fight with another cock or with a different kind of animal or creature or with any human being; or who, for amusement or gain, worries or injures any cock, or causes any cock to worry or injure another animal; and any person who permits the same to be done on any premises under his or her charge or control, and any person who aids or abets the fighting or worrying of any cock is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not to exceed one year, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(c)A second or subsequent conviction of this section is a misdemeanor or a felony punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not to exceed one year or the state prison for 16 months, two, or three years, by a fine not to exceed twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine, except in unusual circumstances in which the interests of justice would be better served by the imposition of a lesser sentence.

(d)For the purposes of this section, aiding and abetting a violation of this section shall consist of something more than merely being present or a spectator at a place where a violation is occurring.

*Federal Codes:*

Indiana Code - Section 35-46-3-9.5: Promoting an animal fighting contest

5. A person who knowingly or intentionally:

(1) possesses animal fighting paraphernalia with the intent to commit a violation of IC 35-46-3-9; and
(2) possesses, harbors, or trains a dog, cock, fowl, or bird bearing:
(A) a scar;
(B) a wound; or
(C) an injury;
consistent with participation in or training for an animal fighting contest; 
commits promoting an animal fighting contest, a Class D felony.
*
Delaware Code - Section 1326: ANIMALS;*

(a) A person who owns, possesses, keeps, trains or uses any bull, bear, dog, cock or other animal, or fowl, for the purpose of fighting or baiting; or a person who is party to or who causes any such fighting or baiting of any bear, dog, cock or other animal, or fowl; or a person who shall rent or otherwise obtain the use of a building, shed, room, yard, ground or premises for the purpose of fighting or baiting any animal or fowl, or shall knowingly suffer or permit the use of any building, shed, room, yard, ground or premises belonging to the person or under the person's control, for any of the purposes described in this section, shall be guilty of a class F felony. 
(b) A person who is present at a building, shed, room, yard, ground or premises where preparations are being made for any exhibition prohibited by this section, knowing that such exhibition is taking place or about to take place is guilty of a class G felony. 
(c) All animals, equipment, devices and money involved in a violation of this section shall be forfeited to the State. Animals so forfeited shall be disposed of in a humane manner. 
(d) No prosecution for any offense under this section shall be commenced after 5 years from the commission of such offense.
(e) Any person convicted of a felony violation of this section shall be prohibited from owning or possessing any animal for 15 years after said conviction. 
(f) A person who gambles on the outcome of an exhibition prohibited by this section is guilty of a class F felony.
(g) No fine issued as a result of violation of this section shall be suspended. 

*Other interesting links:*

http://upc-online.org/alerts/22703cockfighting.htm
*
COCKFIGHTING HURTS MORE THAN JUST FIGHTING BIRDS:*

From HSUS's 2/27 Humanelines: 
In California, illegal cockfighting is claiming victims beyond those killed in the fighting ring. More than three million chickens and other birds, including birds at southern California factory farms, have been ordered killed by federal and state authorities in response to an outbreak of Exotic Newcastle Disease (END), a highly contagious avian disease thought to have been introduced into the area by California's huge illegal cockfighting industry. 

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2010/08/02/cracking-down-on-cockfighting/
http://www.humanesociety.org/news/p...nia_cockfighting_bills_introduced_021611.html
http://www.humanesociety.org/about/departments/legislation/state_leg_victories.html


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

newtopidgeons said:


> And I still want to know how pigeon racing at a club leval can be chasing a pot of gold. Legally? Are you meaning the statues on the plaques?


 He means through one loft races and other club races with a high purse as well . Take a look at this as an example http://www.cbspigeon.com/MC/10-Payout-revised.html


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

Still no reason to ban someone from a club. If the one loft races are against excockfighters as much as lawman, then they should investigate and forewarn anyone sending birds ahead of time. This lawman is looking for an arguement, if he is not an animal rights activist he should not try to cause controversy amongst pigeon fanciers, because he hates cockfighters. Its obvious he hates cockfighters and he has info on hand for rebuttal. Thats easy, copy and paste. The internet helps people hide, maybe he should start in person at his own club with his agenda. Then they could as a club start across America pushing thier ideas and agendas. Constantly growing in numbers and defying media to get donations. Sounds like the HSUS to me.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

Sheriff Raid's Valley Home In Tank

March 22, 2011

PHOENIX -- Sheriff Joe Arpaio rolled out the tanks to take down a guy suspected of cockfighting.

West Valley residents in the neighborhood are crying foul after armored vehicles and even a tank rolled into their neighborhood to make the bust. 

Neighbor Debra Ross was so worried she called 911 and went outside where a nearby home had its windows blown out, was crawling with dozens of SWAT members in full gear, armored vehicles and a bomb robot.

“When the tank came in and pushed the wall over and you see what's in there, and all it is, is a bunch of chickens,” Ross said.

In a massive show of force on Monday, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office executed a search warrant and arrested the homeowner, Jesus Llovera, on charges of suspected cockfighting.

Llovera was alone in the house at the time of the arrest, and he was unarmed.

“I think taxpayers should be shocked,” said Robert Campus, Llovera’s attorney. Campus said he believes the operation costs tens of thousands of dollars.

Deputies had no probable cause to believe Llovera was armed or dangerous, according to Campus.

Campus said he believes the entire scene was basically a stage, to help actor Steve Segal’s TV show, “Lawman.”

Segal was riding in the tank.

The Sheriff’s Department has entered into a contract with Segal and part of that contract gives Segal carte blanche to go along with the sheriff as he arrests people.

Thousands of dollars in damages were made to the property and 115 birds were euthanized on the spot.

Llovera was convicted of a misdemeanor last year of attending a cockfight and has no history of owning weapons.

Yet the Sheriff’s Office said they had reasons to believe Llovera might be armed.

“We're going to err on the side of caution. We're going to make sure that we have the appropriate amount of force in case we do run into anything like that,” said Sgt. Jesse Spurgin.


ARPAIO DESPERATE

He’s reduced to going on cockfighting man dates with Steven Seagal.
In a massive show of force on Monday, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office executed a search warrant and arrested the homeowner, Jesus Llovera, on charges of suspected cockfighting.
Llovera was alone in the house at the time of the arrest, and he was unarmed.
“I think taxpayers should be shocked,” said Robert Campus, Llovera’s attorney. Campus said he believes the operation costs tens of thousands of dollars.
Deputies had no probable cause to believe Llovera was armed or dangerous, according to Campus.
Campus said he believes the entire scene was basically a stage, to help actor Steven Seagal’s TV show, “Lawman.”
Seagal was riding in the tank.
The Sheriff’s Department has entered into a contract with Seagal and part of that contract gives Seagal carte blanche to go along with the sheriff as he arrests people.
Your Maricopa County taxpayer dollars at work: Helping a pathetic aging has-been celebrity feel relevant. Steven Seagal too


FARMERS BECOMING ENDANGERED SPECIES

Where are we headed?
We have more inmates than we do farms.
In a population of 6.8 million people, only 751,000 are farmers. In fact, there are twice as many blind people in the United States as there are farmers.
Less than 1 percent claim farming as an occupation; fewer than 2 percent actually live on farms. They have no political clout.
Nonfarm jobs now account for 90 percent of household income for farmers.

Maryland is the strictest environment in which to farm. No chickenhouses have been built in Maryland for some time. Without replacements, the industry will disappear.
How many lawsuits will the poultry industry withstand? This industry is a three-legged stool -- integrator, poultry grower and grain farmer. The extreme environmentalist do not care which of the legs they work on; in fact, one lawsuit over Ocean City sludge names all three -- a grain and poultry grower plus the integrator is involved because he has poultry on the farm.
It was Ocean City sludge (people waste), not poultry waste, but the integrator was dragged into the lawsuit.

The president of the Humane Society of the United States wrote: "We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding."
The extreme environmentalist does not care about the environment; he only wants poultry and animal livestock as we know it to be gone.
Environmental regulations and the extreme environmentalist are now the greatest threat to animal agriculture. 

When poultry is gone from the Shore, there will be no market for grain and the ghetto will reach from Bay Bridge to Bay Bridge-Tunnel.
Farmers are the endangered species.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

Sorry I was just trying to explain why it was called chasing the pot of gold , not sure why cockfighting is even coming up in that subject line for pigeons ? Oh well :s


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

You speak without knowledge my friend the information that I just posted. I was able to look up on the internet in about 15 minutes (maybe less) just do a basic google search young friend.

Hate would also be to strong a word, strongly dislike would be a better phrase.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

Unintentional Sins: Many Urban Church goers have fallen prey to the lies and misrepresentations of the Humane Society of the United States.



Peter Singer, often referred to as the “father of the animal rights movement” has openly stated that his goal is legalized bestiality (sex with animals). The infamous Mr. Singer preaches the following message “The only moral bar that has not fallen to the animal extremists’ movement is legalized bestiality. And Christians stand in the way of legalizing bestiality and to realize our goal we must get rid of this nonsense (religion) because in order to reach this goal we must do away with the Judeo Christian foundations within America.” Mr. Singer also advocates and support the idea that women should be able to abort their children up to two years after they're born. Yes you read it correctly, he advocates the killing of children up to two years old is acceptable if the mother of the child decides the responsibility is more than she wants to assume.



Now read again who the gamefowl owners (cockfighters) are and realize we are mostly Christians that do not place animals equal to or above human lives and choose which side of this argument represents your values.



Research conducted by Clemson University sociology professor William C. Capel and Virginia Polytechnical University sociology professor Clifton Bryant. They co-authored “The Clemson Report” in 1974 and again in 1991, a sociological profile of cockfighters. They reported that “Devotees of cockfighting show no psychological abnormalities. ... There are no serious psychological differences between those who engage in this behavior and those who do not. Certainly there are no signs of psychotic behavior. ... “People engaged in this recreational form are basically conservative, highly concerned with health and outdoor life, strongly patriotic and strongly in favor of obeying laws and preservation of public order.” Many cockfighters had jobs in government, education or the armed forces, and almost none were on welfare or unemployed. Almost 40 percent were “in the white-collar ranks of sales, administration or business positions,” almost 30 percent were “skilled blue collar” and about 25 percent were “semi-skilled blue collar.” About 27 percent had some education beyond high school. In an interview for a story published in Harper’s magazine, Professor Bryant said: “They’re mostly middle-class, from small towns or the country, more likely to be married, more likely to stay married, more likely to go to church, to be veterans,” he says. “In fact, if you tried to go back and put together a typical American of the 1940s or ‘50s that would be a cockfighter.”



From 1974 to 1991, a seventeen year study. This is what more than 444,000 voters and over 70% of rural OK citizens know that the urban voters do not.

I know many cockfighters and have been going to the cockfights since I was 14 years old (over 30 years) and the description above is the most honest description of the majority of cockfighters that I have ever seen in print. 



God created man in his own image and gave man a soul that he did not give any other living thing he created.



God placed the natural instincts in the gamecock to fight to the death just as he placed the same instinct of fighting to the death in the Beta fish (Chinese fighting fish). And these two species fight to the death through no human encouragement or involvement. God placed this genetic trait into these two species to ensure the best and strongest genetic traits were passed along to the next generation. It is often referred to as "natural selection".



Gamefowl owners simply admire the courage that god placed in the gamecock. And we have built an industry and a method of harvest around the natural instinct God placed into the gamefowl. Just as the cattle rancher has built an industry around the genetic traits God placed in cattle.



Urban Christians have allowed themselves to fall victim to the lies and misrepresentations of the animal extremists that have manipulated them into supporting the inherent danger created by the law criminalizing this industry built upon the natural traits God himself placed in the gamecock.



In their misguided efforts to defend a chicken many urban Christians have placed animals, fish and fowl above human lives and support the endangerment of human lives created by law enforcement officers making raids against the gamefowl owners to prohibit them from harvesting their gamefowl. Sooner or later a rural US Citizen will be killed to stop the gamefowl owner from harvesting these chickens which are his property and the product of his animal agriculture industry.



Of course the HSUS encourages law enforcement officers to conduct these raids and readily advocates and accepts the endangerment to the lives of rural US Citizens and even places a $5,000.00 bounty on cockfighters’ caught harvesting their chickens because as the government officials take the property of the gamefowl owners, they give it to the animal extremists who then destroys (kills) the chickens because there is no other commercial harvest of these chickens except fighting, the HS will get paid by the state to kill the chickens. Then they’ll use the publicity to solicit more donations to increase their bank accounts and make their leadership even more rich. Therefore the HSUS is turning the destruction of the gamefowl owners industry and our property into their financial industry and their harvest of the gamefowl owners’ property.



Urban Church goers have fallen victim to an elaborate scam, to make animals, fish and fowl equal to human beings contrary to the teachings of the bible. They have retraced the steps of God’s chosen people after they were led to the Promised Land and as Moses found them at Mt Sinai worshipping animals as Gods. They are placing animals above the life of their fellow rural Christians because we simply hold a different opinion of the harvest of a gamecock than urban Christians do, because when I see two gamecocks fighting I understand it is just a part of Gods plan and his perfect design of the world and I am simply attempting to perpetuate the traits and conduct a harvest of the natural abilities he placed in the gamecock when he created it.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Now who has all the information at the ready and is just trying to pick a fight or argument? You don’t have to like the humane society but even you must admite that they have done far more to stop true animal abuse than anyone else in our country. For every example of your hatred of them you post, there will probably be ten showing true animal abuse that was halted by them or with their help.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

Maybe you are right about them "helping'' stop some abuse. They have no shelters, but they have private investigators. They dont shelter animals, but they euthinze numerous. Better yet they build a case, they swey the government to "bust", they take all the animals and kill them. I think that is abuse! And you are not my friend. Nor anyone else that supports the HSUS. You are misleading people in hopes to get them on your band wagon. If I dont have the right to feel the way i do about people like you, the you dont have the right to feel the way you do about cockfighters. I dont fight anymore and you can watch me if need be, but some of my family and friends always will.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

*You should go back and re-read what I said about who some of my friends are.*

*Now with that said; *

The point I was trying to head in was simply that not only is fighting of any animals illegal in the United States. But it goes hand in hand with other crimes such as the illegal sales of guns and drugs. So it is not some harmless sport, as a few people on this site have been trying to claim!

I would hope that our sport does not get to the point that we have to do full background checks on every new applicant that comes our way. Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s when my brother and I became involved in the sport, we had to go through a vetting process of sorts. We attended several club meetings and got to know the other club members before we were actually voted into the club. I believe it is still that way today for the most part. 

What I can tell you all is that I will not knowingly vote anyone into my club who is still *actively* involved in fighting animals (be they dog, cat, or birds of any type). 

Not only is it illegal in all 50 states of the Union. But as an active police officer I most certainly do not want to be tainted by association with anyone who is. (Yes, I know there are those who believe its OK, nothing wrong with it, probably in most cases part of the same bunch who think Marijuana is a harmless drug).* But it is not OK and it is ILLEGAL.*


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

What club do you race? Im done posting in this thread. You have the propaganda of a true animal rights activist. Drugs and guns are evrywere. High schools, did you graduate? Your associated. your a cop you know how many time drugs and guns "hit home" in your investigations. I just believe your here for more than pigeons, you started a thread showing your concern. If your not an animal rights activist. What club do you race with and whats your loft name? If your a pigeon racer then Im sorry, but your still not my friend.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

newtopidgeons said:


> What club do you race? Im done posting in this thread. You have the propaganda of a true animal rights activist. Drugs and guns are evrywere. High schools, did you graduate? Your associated. your a cop you know how many time drugs and guns "hit home" in your investigations. I just believe your here for more than pigeons, you started a thread showing your concern. If your not an animal rights activist. What club do you race with and whats your loft name? If your a pigeon racer then Im sorry, but your still not my friend.


All of that and more is listed in what I have already written young friend. Perhaps in time you won’t be so quick to anger and will read all the way through the article before you speak (or write as the case may be)

As for being an animal rights activist go to the archives and you will find out how I feel about them – there will no longer be any doubt in your heart young Jedi!


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## RaginCajun (Mar 26, 2011)

Lawman, I have to agree with newtopidgeons, your post is directed at trying to stop ex roosterfighters from racing pigeons. ARA ?? maybe, maybe not. Is it cause you're scared that the roosterfighters knowledge of birds gives us (yes I did fight roosters all of my life, until it was made illegal in my home state) an advantage over your average newbie ? Either way if you don't want law abiding citizens in your RPC, bring it up at your next club meeting. As for me and my former rooster fighting self, I'm gonna race pigeons and there ain't a soul on this planet that can stop me.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't know how this thread got out off tangent.

Police officers enforce laws. They don't make them. So don't blame them. (My dad happens to be a cop as well). 

I have never done cockfighting although I have raised chickens in the past (back in Asia). One thing I've noticed is that cocks are highly protective(territorial).

With respect to cockfighting I think it is cultural/society thing. If a society accepts it, then it is legal. If not, then it becomes illegal.

Right now boxing is legal even though a person can get injured/killed. That is fighting. It sounds like cockfighting without death. But thus far we accept it so it is legal. Maybe someday some human rights activist will try to stop this one to. Sometimes I don't know whether we are hypocrite.

One thing for sure is that people are getting restricted more and more about having animals in their property.

Maybe in the future some animal rights activist will prevent us from eating animals because we have to kill them first. Then we will all be vegetarian and perhaps eating synthetic/artificial meat.

Let us go back to the topic else this thread will get lock.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

RaginCajun said:


> Lawman, I have to agree with newtopidgeons, your post is directed at trying to stop ex roosterfighters from racing pigeons. ARA ?? maybe, maybe not. Is it cause you're scared that the roosterfighters knowledge of birds gives us (yes I did fight roosters all of my life, until it was made illegal in my home state) an advantage over your average newbie ? Either way if you don't want law abiding citizens in your RPC, bring it up at your next club meeting. As for me and my former rooster fighting self, I'm gonna race pigeons and there ain't a soul on this planet that can stop me.


*No you are both mis-interpreting my words,* I am not sure if this is being done intentionally or not? So I’ll try to explain a little better. 

Let me state it again as well that I have friends who used to fight birds and I have no doubt that some of my extended family in West Virginia and Kentucky probably still do. 

I on the other hand never have and never will.

Trust me “RaginCagin” I do not fear any chicken fighter or their *limited knowledge of racing pigeons*, they are definitely different birds and bred for far different purposes. 

Fact is if you try some of the tricks you used on the game birds with the racing pigeons you will burn them up before you get to the first race. That or you will leave them sterile and useless as future breeders. 

Also I have no desire to stop those of you who for whatever reason left the dark side and stopped fighting birds and began racing pigeons instead. 

Fact is I welcome anyone who is willing and able to make that change.

*My concern is what do we as;* clubs, combines, concourses and as unions do with those who want to fly pigeons, but refuse to leave behind the chicken fighting?

Reason I’m asking this is due primarily to the current outbreak of Exotic Newcastle. It is still ongoing and began just south of San Diego in Tijuana Mexico. 

So far from the information I can get out of Mexico it appears to be headed south. I do know they tracked and destroyed birds that came from that farm here in California and so far nothing in the US has show positive for the disease.

What I can tell you for a fact is that in 2002-2003 when the feds and state stepped in and shut down all racing in southern California. 

The first piece of property identified as having Exotic Newcastle in the Inland Empire region. Had a couple living there who had both racing homers and “exotic chickens” on the property. Exotic Chickens in my sometimes not so humble opinion just a nice politically correct way of saying fighting chickens. 

Now let me make it very clear that to the best of my knowledge that couple no longer is involved, but they were definitely around chicken fighters if not directly involved themselves back then.

*So ex-chicken fighter that you are what is your opinion;* how do we deal with people who simply will not make a choice between the two life styles? 

Does the AU and IF simply turn a blind eye and hope the fallout never comes their way? 

What do the smaller organizations do? 

I’m interested in hearing how you think the issue of illegal chicken fighting should be dealt with from within the pigeon racing community!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

"*My concern is what do we as; clubs, combines, concourses and as unions do with those who want to fly pigeons, but refuse to leave behind the chicken fighting?*"

It is probably none of our business. What they do outside pigeon racing is their own business.

I think your concern is image thing (or guilt by association). Because they happen to be cockfighting (doing illegal stuff), then you don't want to be associated with them. That may be a dangerous trend because sooner or later club rules might dictate who gets to be a member of the club--hates those exclusive club rules(sometimes you have to be rich to get in or drives nice cars, etc.) Pigeon racing is supposed to be open to anyone--rich, poor, with/without criminal records, etc. Anyone should be able to participate.


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## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

Wow you guys have quite the thread going on and it is interesting to hear the opinions of others, Myself I do not agree with cock fighting, dog fighting, bull fighting or anything like that. But I have to disagree with Lawman on the statement about exotic chickens being a politically correct way of saying fighting chickens. There are hundreds of different types of chickens such as silkies , banties, leg horns etc. and many many types of show birds. Chicken breeders are very serious about the quality of bird they raise just as we are about our birds.
As far as the start of this thread about the Pot Of Gold, I don't know if anything can be done. Lets face it there are millions of dollars spent in the racing pigeon sport daily. What is it, 1 in 10 households in Belgium have a loft ?. Holland, Germany, many many countries have pigeon racing. When you have fanciers from China spending millions on Belgian birds it just shows how big it really can be. Some lofts make a lot of money and many of the big players on this forum make thousands of dollars racing pigeons. So can anything be done? Or for that matter should anything be done? Peronally I think not. The folks that make the money for the most part IMO deserve it for a job well done and congrats to them.

Hank


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## RaginCajun (Mar 26, 2011)

personally I don't think anything that a pigeon racer does outside of his/her club is anyone's business, because it does not pertain to racing pigeons. I won't fight roosters again(unless they make it legal again) but if a person chooses to do so, so be it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

my thinking is what is wrong with a standard for members to join a club, it can't hurt to keep it's reputation respectable.. but to get around it would be to don't ask don't tell.. but make it clear what kind of conduct they want out of members because of the public eye.. you have to admit racing pigeons is not always liked by people.. the less they know about cock fighting pigeon racers the better..lol..


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## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> my thinking is what is wrong with a standard for members to join a club, it can't hurt to keep it's reputation respectable.. but to get around it would be to don't ask don't tell.. but make it clear what kind of conduct they want out of members because of the public eye.. you have to admit racing pigeons is not always liked by people.. the less they know about cock fighting pigeon racers the better..lol..


Spirit has a very valid point and I agree with her. I feel we have a responsibility to promote our (hobbie/sport) the best way we can, and if that means the clubs have to have a certain " Code Of Conduct" to be followed by all in order to be a member of that particular club then so be it..

Hank


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

RodSD said:


> "*My concern is what do we as; clubs, combines, concourses and as unions do with those who want to fly pigeons, but refuse to leave behind the chicken fighting?*"
> 
> It is probably none of our business. What they do outside pigeon racing is their own business.
> 
> I think your concern is image thing (or guilt by association). Because they happen to be cockfighting (doing illegal stuff), then you don't want to be associated with them. That may be a dangerous trend because sooner or later club rules might dictate who gets to be a member of the club--hates those exclusive club rules(sometimes you have to be rich to get in or drives nice cars, etc.) Pigeon racing is supposed to be open to anyone--rich, poor, with/without criminal records, etc. Anyone should be able to participate.


*I do not disagree with your statement “Pigeon racing is supposed to be open to anyone--rich, poor, with/without criminal records, etc. Anyone should be able to participate”. *

There are members of my own club who have criminal records; they would probably all tell you it was from making some rather stupid mistakes in their respective lives. Heck I don’t hold that against them any more than I do my own extended family members with records. But I can tell you that those family members who continue to be involved (in one case in particular, with meth) are not allowed around my children or for that matter my family. 

*But are you saying* this issue (exotic game fighters) should be ignored; unless or until some group say like “PETA” for example comes along and tries to connect the dots between the two separate groups and take both down with the same pen?

*Do you really believe* that their lawyers would simply say that what a person does outside of his or her pigeons racing group has no bearing on that club or combine? If you are I have Ocean front property to sells you in the middle of the Mojave Desert.

I am not saying there are any easy answers to the questions I have posed, or even that I know the best way to solve them. If I did know all the answers to life’s quandaries, well I could write a book and hope to get rich (like DR Spock back in the 50’s and 60’s)

Instead I am asking for insight from fellow pigeons racers!


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## RaginCajun (Mar 26, 2011)

so, what you're saying is that a person like me, a former rooster fighter that quit when it became illegal in my state, that was raised fighting roosters, taught by my grandfather should not be allowed to race pigeons ?? thats absurd, whether or not you think what I did was right, just becaus I WAS associated with fighting roosters I shouldn't be allowed to join a club and race pigeons. That is absurd !!! the reason I quit fighting roosters was because I have 3 kids and I don't want to go to jail. Now I want a hobby that I can spend time with my children doing, and you're going to try and stop me ??? Sounds like prejudice to me !!!


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> my thinking is what is wrong with a standard for members to join a club, it can't hurt to keep it's reputation respectable.. but to get around it would be to don't ask don't tell.. but make it clear what kind of conduct they want out of members because of the public eye.. you have to admit racing pigeons is not always liked by people.. the less they know about cock fighting pigeon racers the better..lol..


I was not going to post here again but you hit the nail on the head.
Its only the agenda of the ARA's to publicy announce cockfighters past or present race pigeons. Cockfighting is illegal on a federal leval across America, they managed that. The reason for being here is to eventually put pigeon racing in the agenda for abolishment. Tying illegal cockfighting and pigeon racing together is just a blow and black eye to the public. A standard for a member is quit reputable, but not for what someone used to do. Why not drug test, prior to voting someone in. And all voters drug test everytime a new members joins and tests. Whay not nobody on probation cant join. No "CHILD MOLESTERS". I feel a club would be better off without theese types instead of banning cockfighters. Can an Indian join a pigeon racing club? Can they own and race pigeons from a reservation? They have the right to fight dogs, eat dogs, and even kick the crap out of them. The government has to be invited to the reservation if they cant keep peace amongst thier selves. I dont support or like any of the things I mentioned that an Indian has the right to do on the reservation. But I dont believe he is any less of a man for what he does. Theese are the only Americans with any rights left. We have more laws today that are unconstitutionable than we do have to protect human beings lives. We had the right to the pursuit of happiness, until the HSUS help take it away. One thing they can not take away and they hate every word of it, is
Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
read it hear how your Bible has it.
http://bible.cc/genesis/1-28.htm


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

hankabus said:


> Spirit has a very valid point and I agree with her. I feel we have a responsibility to promote our (hobbie/sport) the best way we can, and if that means the clubs have to have a certain " Code Of Conduct" to be followed by all in order to be a member of that particular club then so be it..
> 
> Hank


Interesting you should mention "Code of Conduct" that must be followed in order to be a member. 

It just so happened the AU does have a code of conduct or rather ethics;

*AU Code of Ethics -310.01* AU members have a responsibility to represent our sport and hobby in the highest of standards of conduct: *they will not* use profane language, *engage in* abusive argument or *disorderly conduct at pigeon functions or in public places where they can be identified with our sport and hobby*.

I have never been a member of the IF but I am certain they have a Code of Ethical standards as well.

Should the AU, IF and the CU make a rule (to be adopted by all member organizations) that states no individual member shall engage in or be associated with fighting animals of any type. Or do you believe they covered it by adopting the "Animal Welfare Act", which prohits that type of activity.

Then again with my question, How do we deal with those who will not sepparate themselves from the Exoctic Gamefighting Industries?

Don't ask, Don't tell! Only works to a point.

Sooner or later someone will get caught up at a fight and it will be linked back to our door steps. Or more likely or probably a virus from illegally imported birds will be brought into their pigeon flocks and then spread throughout their respective clubs and combines, ECT.

So should we engage in protective action prior to an incident or put our heads in the sand and wait?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

illegal cock fighting is well.. illegal.. that does not seem like a conduct to accept.... how will you know?.. you have to do your research.. if you got the time..

x cock fighting person.. not doing it.. should be the same as anyone wanting to join..and they do not have to share the past with anyone..because x cock fighting will not be asked about..


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

lawman said:


> Interesting you should mention "Code of Conduct" that must be followed in order to be a member.
> 
> It just so happened the AU does have a code of conduct or rather ethics;
> 
> *AU Code of Ethics -310.01* AU members have a responsibility to represent our sport and hobby in the highest of standards of conduct: *they will not* use profane language, *engage in* abusive argument or *disorderly conduct at pigeon functions or in public places where they can be identified with our sport and hobby*.


Seems like you knowing this, being a President and all. You would not even start you propaganda of this in a public place. You are here for harm to good people and you will never make me believe different. Im glad my club is, and will be glad to have me already. You may sitting there in your different clor wool


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

I dont need a PM from you lawman, Im not scared of you. Just your agenda.
You make my blood boil. Maybe its the INDIAN in me.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

newtopidgeons said:


> I dont need a PM from you lawman, Im not scared of you. Just your agenda.


You go off on tangents that have no relative meaning to the discussion bringing in peoples "race and religion" to the argument. That is why I private messaged you and advised you that it was not needed, whether you did it intentionally or not does not matter one bit young friend.

Go back and read my posts, without getting angry or having your eyes burn out of their sockets. Read the words and let them fully sink in. You will find we are probably more alike than you care to believe.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What about people who fight praying mantis. Now back to the orginal thread It is about pigeons I do not care if a person fought fighting roosters Or pit bulls It is now a thing of the past it can not be done legal any more. But keeping pigeons is satill legal until PETA destroys that. So More people wanting into the pigeon hobby the better. What goes on out side the hobby that haSno personal effect on the hobby well Thats the persons Personel ventures. What gose on at clubs shows races ect that effects the hobby. If you have 8 legs and 8 arms And want to be part of the pigeon hobby Great you can hold more birds with your 8 arms. So it is not about people its about people who care and keep that little bird called a pigeon Which counts for even having the hobby. Lets not point at ech other as someone will point back And we all do no good. Pigeons has changed peoples life And that deserves to be seen the hobby needs people and the hobby helps people. And those people care for WHAT there pigeons


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

_"My question to all of you on this forum is simply; how do we go about teaching the new fliers or our own youth to avoid these types of individuals. When all they see is the sparkle of fake gold (green backs here in the US) being flashed in their faces."_

I would like to hear more on this.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Sreesh,

From a philosophical, parental, or "as applied to this thread" context? 

I can answer two of those three with some certainty.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> Sreesh,
> 
> From a philosophical, parental, or "as applied to this thread" context?
> 
> I can answer two of those three with some certainty.


I am open to hear about the thoughts on any context  but on the subject matter


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Philosophical: The fundamental issue is that money has become, some would say that it always has been, analogous with happiness. Until we can show others that happiness is not purchasable there will always be a drive to "get more".

Parental: You must lead by example. Live your life in such a way to show that happiness is not purchased. Show them that happiness is derived from finding meaning and fulfillment in this life, not the imagined life of wealth. This means that you must find this happiness yourself. 

Application to this thread: I refer to the parental. For me this is playing out as "loving the sport for the sake of the birds" instead of "loving the birds for the sake of the sport". Let me explain.

My son and I (and to a lesser degree the Mrs and daughter) only want the birds as a hobby. We like the idea of racing as it allows the birds to "prove themselves" and to fulfill their point of existence (come home fast). To us racing is something that we do more for the birds than for us. This has led to a small problem. We are now arguing over which birds are too precious to race. They might get lost and we like some of them too much to risk. But the birds were made to fly! What do we do?

My point to all of this is that the only solution is for us to "revolt" against the status quo by being a shining example that is proves more alluring than $$. This is not easy, but it is doable.


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## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

well said Jaysen


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> Philosophical: The fundamental issue is that money has become, some would say that it always has been, analogous with happiness. Until we can show others that happiness is not purchasable there will always be a drive to "get more".
> 
> Parental: You must lead by example. Live your life in such a way to show that happiness is not purchased. Show them that happiness is derived from finding meaning and fulfillment in this life, not the imagined life of wealth. This means that you must find this happiness yourself.
> 
> ...


I am happy that I asked


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

nice....


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

So basically this discussion is about what is an* ideal pigeon fancier character that can be allowed to become a member of the club*. That would be a slippery slope argument. Pigeon fanciers come in all backgrounds. So the question seems to be whether you want a club to be an open-club or closed club (having strict rules). I think right now we have an open or semi-open pigeon club.

The reason I think it is a slippery slope argument is that we don't know to what extent we can put limit to our rules. Are we now going to limit membership because they don't make enough money, their lofts are too small, they can't afford vet, they are too young, etc. To what extent?


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

RodSD said:


> Are we now going to limit membership because they don't make enough money, their lofts are too small, they can't afford vet, they are too young, etc. To what extent?


Or if they are in Law Enforcement. There is nothing wrong with a police state if you are the police.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

RodSD,

I don't think that is the argument (certainly not mine). In my opinion you have to set the example and set the tone. Once folks see the way things _can be_ things have a tendency to settle out on their own. At least that has been my experience so far. 

Kind of a "birds of a feather" ideal.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Jaysen said:


> Philosophical: The fundamental issue is that money has become, some would say that it always has been, analogous with happiness. Until we can show others that happiness is not purchasable there will always be a drive to "get more".
> 
> Parental: You must lead by example. Live your life in such a way to show that happiness is not purchased. Show them that happiness is derived from finding meaning and fulfillment in this life, not the imagined life of wealth. This means that you must find this happiness yourself.
> 
> ...


Well said Jason, I total agree with what you have said about setting the example and then you will see over time people coming together to get things done who are like minded.

Now with that said it has been implied by some on here that I must believe in totalitarianism or police states ECT. ECT. I must tell you all my wife almost died of laughter when she read that. If some of you truly knew me (and perhaps someday we will get the chance to meet up at one of the conventions) you would know just how wrong you truly were and are.

Now mind you Jason I have had pigeons since it was like 8-9 years old. I have had homing pigeons since I was in my teens. I have been flying racing homers since I was in my early twenties. Other than a break I took when I spent 10 years in the Army, I have always been involved with birds. 

The only animals I love as much are Dogs and Horses, but those are different subjects. Point I’m getting at is this is a lifelong love of our avian friends. Not just some flash in the pants here one minute then gone the next type of thing. 

I know people have varied degrees of ideas on the subject but what I am asking of you and everybody else on this sight is very simple. How do we protect our friends (for me it’s racing pigeons for other rollers ECT.) from getting lumped into the same crowd as cock fighters, dogfighters and the like, without making some type of separation from them. 

The AU and I’m certain the IF and CU have come out on their web sites indicating that we are against animal cruelty. The AU has done wonders setting up guidelines for transportation and releases.

But I don’t see as much being done to address the illegal fighting of any animals other than what appears on the surface to be lip service with no teeth to enforce it within our membership. 

Now before some of you go off the deep end, what does the AU and associated membership do with members who get busted for cock fighting and the like. 

Is it or should it be grounds for removal from the AU,IF and the CU?


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## MikeJ78 (Mar 24, 2011)

*Divide and Conquer*

I am new to the site and to pigeon racing, but I have owned both homing pigeons and gamefowl in the past, although I never raced or fought. I can't help but wonder how long it will be before I here comments about not allowing ex-pigeon racers to join a show rabbit club or an equestrian club because they used to take part in the once legal sport of pigeon racing. It seems to be plan of the animal rights people to divide and conquer all sports or activities that involve animals. It didn't stop with dog fighting and it won't stop with cockfighting. They will keep going until pigeon racing, horse racing, dog agility competitions, hunting, fishing, and even owning pets will be illegal and they will do it one activity at a time. If the cockfighters and hound hunters would have fought side by side with the dog fighters their sports wouldn't be going by the wayside. I think pigeon racers, horse owners, hunters, etc had better stick together, because if fancy pigeon owners take the position that they don't care if pigeon racing is banned in the USA just as long as they can have their birds, then it won't be too much longer before they lose their privledges as well. It's just a thought, but it might that pigeon racing is one of the next targets. There are already many articles about the cruelty of making those poor little pigeons fly all those mile to get back home. I can just imagine the HSUS and a commercial about how the pigeons are separated from their mates and their babies in order to make them fly faster, and how even cockfighters didn't even stoop to such cruel practices. 
DIVIDE WE FALL FOLKS
Thank You,
Mike


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

Thats the agenda of the HSUS


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MikeJ78 said:


> I am new to the site and to pigeon racing, but I have owned both homing pigeons and gamefowl in the past, although I never raced or fought. I can't help but wonder how long it will be before I here comments about not allowing ex-pigeon racers to join a show rabbit club or an equestrian club because they used to take part in the once legal sport of pigeon racing. It seems to be plan of the animal rights people to divide and conquer all sports or activities that involve animals. It didn't stop with dog fighting and it won't stop with cockfighting. They will keep going until pigeon racing, horse racing, dog agility competitions, hunting, fishing, and even owning pets will be illegal and they will do it one activity at a time. If the cockfighters and hound hunters would have fought side by side with the dog fighters their sports wouldn't be going by the wayside. I think pigeon racers, horse owners, hunters, etc had better stick together, because if fancy pigeon owners take the position that they don't care if pigeon racing is banned in the USA just as long as they can have their birds, then it won't be too much longer before they lose their privledges as well. It's just a thought, but it might that pigeon racing is one of the next targets. T*here are already many articles about the cruelty of making those poor little pigeons fly all those mile to get back home. I can just imagine the HSUS and a commercial about how the pigeons are separated from their mates and their babies in order to make them fly faster, and how even cockfighters didn't even stoop to such cruel practices.*
> DIVIDE WE FALL FOLKS
> Thank You,
> Mike


Whats the equivalent punch point against rollers, tipplers and high flyers ?


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

MikeJ78 said:


> I am new to the site and to pigeon racing, but I have owned both homing pigeons and gamefowl in the past, although I never raced or fought. I can't help but wonder how long it will be before I here comments about not allowing ex-pigeon racers to join a show rabbit club or an equestrian club because they used to take part in the once legal sport of pigeon racing. It seems to be plan of the animal rights people to divide and conquer all sports or activities that involve animals. It didn't stop with dog fighting and it won't stop with cockfighting. They will keep going until pigeon racing, horse racing, dog agility competitions, hunting, fishing, and even owning pets will be illegal and they will do it one activity at a time. If the cockfighters and hound hunters would have fought side by side with the dog fighters their sports wouldn't be going by the wayside. I think pigeon racers, horse owners, hunters, etc had better stick together, because if fancy pigeon owners take the position that they don't care if pigeon racing is banned in the USA just as long as they can have their birds, then it won't be too much longer before they lose their privledges as well. It's just a thought, but it might that pigeon racing is one of the next targets. There are already many articles about the cruelty of making those poor little pigeons fly all those mile to get back home. I can just imagine the HSUS and a commercial about how the pigeons are separated from their mates and their babies in order to make them fly faster, and how even cockfighters didn't even stoop to such cruel practices.
> DIVIDE WE FALL FOLKS
> Thank You,
> Mike




I must say I disagree that we who race our pigeons are in any way associated with those who fight their animals!!!!!

The sport of racing pigeons has more in common with the sports of racing horses, dogs and yes even down in Azzie land they race ostriches. 

Do not try to lump the racing pigeons with those who fight their animals. 

The various sports of racing animals have as much in common with those who fight their animals; as an apple has in common with a grapefruit. Other than they are both round and they come from a tree they don’t have anything in common.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

I was just reading the California State Racing Pigeon Organization news letter for spring of 2011. I like and Agree with Mr. Darryl R. Coston, CSRPO President message. In the message he said *" Let's embrace the new members and be willing to mentor them regardless of their background. "*


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Bluecheckard said:


> I was just reading the California State Racing Pigeon Organization news letter for spring of 2011. I like and Agree with Mr. Darryl R. Coston, CSRPO President message. In the message he said *" Let's embrace the new members and be willing to mentor them regardless of their background. "*


Hello Jeffrey,

Darryl Coston the new State CSRPO President was most likely referring to youth fliers when he made that comment in the front of the magazine. 

It was the “youth” he made reference to in the back of the magazine when he further talked about the mentoring of new fliers and how he was mentored when he was younger.

He does go on to say he wants to see an increase in youth fliers as well as adult fliers. 

It would be interesting indeed to hear his views and the views of the AU president in regards to this discussion line as it has more or less unfolded into the racing of pigeons VS. Those adults who also want to continue with chicken fighting as well.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

lawman said:


> How do we protect our friends (for me it’s racing pigeons for other rollers ECT.) from getting lumped into the same crowd as cock fighters, dogfighters and the like, without making some type of separation from them.


Stop fighting your pigeons.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Lawman,

I have thought about your direct question which I will paraphrase as: What _should_ a conscientious *racing* club do about members who can be *proven* to not provide proper care for their animals?

Please note the emphasis.

The club can easily institute a code of ethics clause that can be legally defensible with little effort. The basics points that would need to be covered are:
* Clearly defined club "mission" statement indicating that pleasure racing, not gaming is the focus of activities.
* Random inspections of loft facilities by a board of club members. Leave room for appeal. Board should be elected and appeal board should include non-club members.
* Set penalty of expulsion for certain offenses or cumulative offenses. Some immediates might be: animal fighting, conviction of cruelty to animals (court of law), physical violence (not in self defense), harassment to non-gamblers, etc. These need to be appealable.
* Make this entire ethics policy amendable or revokable by a super majority (two thirds) of the club in a vote. 

That is what has come to mind.

Keep in mind that you can not strong arm "morality". If so then the nut jobs in all religions would be justified in their killings and terrorizing throughout the world. As a man who does not want an autocratic state run by a moral elite (what I gather from reading your posts), you must lead through example and by the consent of your peers. Righteous indignation is a tool, but the real device behind your actions needs to be the betterment of all. 

Not sure if that provides you the answers you are looking for.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

lawman said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is going to be my first year racing, I'm going to the club meeting today and we'll hopefully have young birds next week. What you are asking is very difficult thing to do, not only do you need to be helpful and persistent, but the person your helping needs to be patient, and willing to learn. Back in the Fall I was making lists of who I wanted to buy from and where, etc, etc. When I went over to my mentors house one day and we were talking about high priced birds and Jos Thones auction, I asked him what was the most he ever paid for a bird. Do you know what he said....$250 now I know their are several on here who deem that as cheap and will buy birds priced like that almost without hesitation as long as it say "Sure Bet" etc etc. 

Honestly as a new young flier whats keeping me from wasting my money on birds is my mentors story, also the fact that everyone in the club is telling me not to buy birds that they'll help me out with anything etc. If your club is like that I don't see why a group of persistent people couldn't stop a new flier from wasting his/her money.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

First to Hatch,

If you don't mind, can you tell me where you are? I am in upstate as well and have had a different experience. Granted my interest in racing is just fun so...

When we started looking into pigeons last year we were told to hold off on getting any birds and to just work on our loft. The club set us up with some visits and we worked in a few at their suggestion to see what we liked. Then we built ours. Just as we were getting everything completed on our little loft we were gifted 16 young birds from club members. We lost 8 of them that summer, but now we have 8 old birds that we are confident in (none will be raced). By Dec '10 we were given another 16 OB for our breeding loft. about half have combine wins, the rest have top 10% finishes at the club. Several are "on loan" and will be returned once we get a few rounds off them. 

All that to say, each club is different, but even in the vast emptiness that is upstate, there are lots of birds available *for free*. 

Back to lawman, this is a good point. 50% of our startup equipment was gifted to us. Our club has done everything they can to make it "not about money" even though we have some guys who are very focused on wins and pedigrees. Lead by example in practice.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Jaysen said:


> Lawman,
> 
> I have thought about your direct question which I will paraphrase as: What _should_ a conscientious *racing* club do about members who can be *proven* to not provide proper care for their animals?
> 
> ...


*Well let’s address your last paragraph first, since ether you or someone else spurred you to say it.* 

*What does Righteous indignation mean; *(here we go again with religious overtones, that are not needed in a discussion) But with that said, it is typically a reactive emotion of anger over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice (usually a personal attack or personal insult, ECT. ECT) but it is personal in nature. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice. In some Christian doctrines, righteous indignation is considered the only form of anger which is not sinful, such as when Jesus drove the money lenders out of the temple.

*My intent is not to “strong arm” anything, although some on this site and who have claimed that and are still active in cockfighting may seem to think so. *

*My intent was to open up discussion *on how to solve a perceived problem, now obviously I perceive the problem differently from others (some who have been quite vocal, others whom I know personally. Have gotten junior fliers to do their talking for them, after all junior fliers can typically say and do things and are forgiven in the end because they did not know any better.) 

*The point is;* if you don’t have open discussion of things, then they become like dirty little secrets, they fester like a boil until they pop. 

Groups like PETA and HSUS would like us to go into hiding on these types of subjects. They used to be very vocal about our shipping methods and releasing in various types of bad weather. The AU came up with transportation and release guidelines for everyone to follow. So did the European Union the IF and the CU, all worded very similarly. 

Most groups that I am aware of now use those very guidelines; It did not put us out of business as I’m certain PETA would have loved, guess what we now have better return ratios and faster speeds.

These same groups went after the racing industries in the past over mis-use of horses and dogs. I was stationed near Tucson Arizona about 20 years ago now when hundreds of greyhounds (old, underfed, injured, or simply to slow to compete) had been found in several locations in the desert. An employee (caretaker) for several owners was arrested for killing the animals and dumping them. 

Similar things have happened with racehorses (an old used up race horse used to be sold directly to glue factories) now the owners can’t just breed willie nillie in hopes of getting a champion and they have to care for the horses in their old age. If they sell the horse it must be to a veriefied handles who is willing to care for the horse(s). I could go on about mis-treatment, but the point is these industries changed and are the better for it. 

You should have heard all the crying and complaining from the horse and dog racing industries 20 years ago when most of these changes took place. It was going to kill the industries and put people out of work. 

*Hogwash* (as my grandfather was fond of saying), they have thrived and are the better for it. 

We cannot just hide our heads in the sand like an ostrich and hope the problem goes away or is never found out; we must have open discussion of the issues and learn to control ourselves. 

We must do it with ether written guidelines and/or “rules” of conduct. You missed one thing in your suggestions whoever, (it was pointed out to me by someone I consider in many ways my mentor). You can have all kinds of rules but if they don’t have defined and enforceable consequences then they are nothing but wasted ink on paper. They become meaningless!

*Now with all of that said I think you make a good start, I would have worded a few things differently but a good start none the less.*

*I am interested to hear what others think!*


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## MikeJ78 (Mar 24, 2011)

Hello, I just want to be clear that I was not saying that pigeon racers are the same as cockfighters in any way other than they are both involved in animal sports, which makes both of them the enemy of the animal rights activists. If you wish to compare it to horse racing or dog racing thats fine, but just know that the activists are trying to ban those sports as we speak. If the horse racing crowd says they don't care if dog racing is banned as long as they get to continue racing horses then they are kidding themselves that horse racing won't be next. As far as the apples and grapefruit comment, they are both fruit and the activist nuts just want to ban all fruit. It may be like comparing apples to grapefruit but I think pigeon racers ought to be concerned if rodeo, horse racing, eating meat, or bass fishing gets banned. It is just another victory for the activists and just one day closer to the next sport getting banned. I just hope that one day I don't hear someone say "Don't lump me flying my tumblers into the same category as those people who make their poor birds fly 600 miles just to get back to thier mate or babies. Those people don't love thier birds they just love the competition." Which we all know is not true, but thats what the activists will claim. I hope to be racing and for flying pigeons for many years to come, but it scares me when one sport after another gets banned. I didn't mean to offend anyone on my very first post on this site. I really love Pigeon Talk. It is full of good information and interesting debates.

Thank You
Mike


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

lawman said:


> Hello Jeffrey,
> 
> Darryl Coston the new State CSRPO President was most likely referring to youth fliers when he made that comment in the front of the magazine.
> 
> ...



Ron, 

Please read it again and again. He is not only referring to youth in he's statement. He said* " Regardless of their background "* that means anybody should be welcome Black American, White American, Hispanic, Asian, European, servicemen, civilian, ex-cockfighter , hunter, butcher, etc. etc... let's not discriminate anybody to join this sport because of their background. every one has to live the life of their own choice as long as they don't harm people. Why do some criminals stay criminals? because they are being miss judge by the people as soon as they step out of the prison. most of the times they are not given the chance to change their life's.

I will put my self for example since you know me Ron. I love animals specially roosters and racing pigeon since I was a child. I don't have any rooster here and I never go and fight rooster here in the United State of America. But I can be active in Philippines where rooster fighting is legal and Humane Society Activist go to jail whenever they try to stop and protest during rooster activities. Since I don't violate any law here in the US and I love to be competitive in pigeon racing. (you know that for sure) would you say that AU should ban me? Now that you know that I could be active in the Philippines will you try find a way to arrest me here? I know I was not even welcome in your club since day one ( one reason I left your club and started a new club ) and I know you guys run a background check on me when I was joining your club. My brothers told me about it.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I really didn’t want to jump on this thread because there is very little change in a persons perspective or bias from one side to the other. The original post started off with an issue about members not helping each other anymore, and, basically accused some of being “in it for the money“….then, jumps to identify an unwanted group, lumping the two together. One does not have to be the other. I get a sense of validation and not discussion from the original poster. There are many walks of life, and, there are many views on what is morally right and wrong. That’s another topic of discussion all in itself. 

I know many cops and many who often break the law and many know each other. Both can and still get along outside of the legal issue. You do your job and when it’s done..it’s done. If it happens again, then you do it all over as many times as it needs to be. 

There is a conflict of interest if a head of an organization has a bias against a group, as it may not be a “fair” to one side.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Lawman,

There was no hidden meanings, foisting of opinions, or anything other than an intention to succinctly state an opinion. My apologies if you read more into the words I chose than intended. 

Righteous indignation: An expression of disgust or disapproval made from a position of being in the right. Righteous and righteousness used outside of an implicit religious discussion to not imply religion. As a law enforcement official you act righteously when you arrest a person who has broken the law. 

Strong arm: The act of forcing one's will on another through a position of authority or superiority. Bullying. This is a political tactic seen recently in the federal budgets. One division of a party is strong arming another division (for the record this is occurring on ALL sides so don't read anything political into that statement). 

My intent was only to convey my opinion using the above definitions. While I am familiar with the typical uses I had hoped that everyone here would read the words outside of the volatile context that these words are typically used. 

As to implying a religious context, even in that like of reason, the answer is the same. We should not condone inappropriate behavior. We should safe guard ourselves and our charges (children, spouses, those who trust us) from said behavior. The "strong arm" tactic will almost certainly fail in this effort and we are back to "lead by example" and "build a consensus" on what constitutes "acceptable" behavior. 

I think we violently agree with each other.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> First to Hatch,
> 
> If you don't mind, can you tell me where you are? I am in upstate as well and have had a different experience. Granted my interest in racing is just fun so...
> 
> ...


We already had this talk lol. But I just became an official member of the Schenectady Homing Pigeon Club today...I only have two young birds so far but many of the guys say they will have some more for me.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Bluecheckard said:


> Ron,
> 
> Please read it again and again. He is not only referring to youth in he's statement. He said* " Regardless of their background "* that means anybody should be welcome Black American, White American, Hispanic, Asian, European, servicemen, civilian, ex-cockfighter , hunter, butcher, etc. etc... let's not discriminate anybody to join this sport because of their background. every one has to live the life of their own choice as long as they don't harm people. Why do some criminals stay criminals? because they are being miss judge by the people as soon as they step out of the prison. most of the times they are not given the chance to change their life's.
> 
> I will put my self for example since you know me Ron. I love animals specially roosters and racing pigeon since I was a child. I don't have any rooster here and I never go and fight rooster here in the United State of America. But I can be active in Philippines where rooster fighting is legal and Humane Society Activist go to jail whenever they try to stop and protest during rooster activities. Since I don't violate any law here in the US and I love to be competitive in pigeon racing. (you know that for sure) would you say that AU should ban me? Now that you know that I could be active in the Philippines will you try find a way to arrest me here? I know I was not even welcome in your club since day one ( one reason I left your club and started a new club ) and I know you guys run a background check on me when I was joining your club. My brothers told me about it.


Now you chose to intentionally mis quote me!!!

I never said specifically you or any law abiding group should be banned did I? 

That is simply or interpretation of what I have said, based on your beliefs! 

As for your statement “I don't have any rooster here and I never go and fight rooster here in the United State of America.” ….. Well I can post the web links that would suggest otherwise, even if you don’t own any fighting birds you are still involved with groups who do or at least you were up until two years ago. 

FYI, It was some of the other members of the club who wanted you to explain what was going on and why, when you chose to leave the club.

So I really don’t think you want to start down that road, at least not with me. Your involvement with those groups did lead in part to our club being split. But that is a different issue and does not need to be aired on this site, but remember you brought it up…….

Just for the record Jeffrey I know many people who have been in prison, on a daily basis I get to deal with those who choose to remain criminals and those who have gone on with their lives and have never reoffended. I call several of them friend, for instance I know several who have gone on and became preachers and such; they work to help keep others from going down the paths they did when they were young. 

Each and every one of them to a man (and woman) will tell you they made bad choices and got caught up in what they were doing at the time. They don’t make excuses for their actions or try to use righteous indignation to make others think what they did was somehow justified. They accept that what they did was wrong and they paid the price as set down by a judge and jury, then they went on with their lives.

But yes if you or any member of my family for that matter messed up and made bad decisions in my jurisdiction? I would most certainly do my duty as set forth by the California penal code, the day I could not bring myself to do so would be the day I turned in my badge. You know very well it is that simple for me and anyone who knows me, know just how true that is!

If you are trying to twist this into some type of race thing? well stop now old friend before you make yourself look really silly. 

This is and always has been about those who skirt what is to most a morally right or wrong thing to be involved in. There is no honor in fighting animals to their death. It is that simple for me and you know it!


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Lawman, I believe this is all I am going to add to this thread. First I want to say that you, me and many others swore an oath when joining the Military, to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foreign and domestic. When I left that oath was not revoked. Secondly you pretended to take back your words earlier in this thread when referring to giving one a fair trail before locking them up.

Because of these two things and your offer to turn in your badge in your last post, I submit that that is exactly what you should do. Turn in your badge. You want to usurp the rights of anyone you choose. One does not need to be a Constitutional Scholar to know that all citizens of this country are afforded nay guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. 

I will add that you and those of your ilk are the reason a voice of reason is needed. Have a good day Sir.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

First To Hatch said:


> We already had this talk lol. But I just became an official member of the Schenectady Homing Pigeon Club today...I only have two young birds so far but many of the guys say they will have some more for me.


I guess it is the old age catching up to me. That or the confusion of trying to remember who get a band today, who goes to the weaning pen, and what it is that the teenage daughter wants today.

Glad to see that you getting started. As of today we have 10 in the YB loft, 13 in various stages of "between egg and weaning" and another 12 in egg form. One more half round to go and we are done for the season (some of the hens are on round 3 others only on 2).


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

hahahahahaha


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

this turned out to be one crazy thread :s whoa boi !!


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

rpalmer said:


> Lawman, I believe this is all I am going to add to this thread. First I want to say that you, me and many others swore an oath when joining the Military, to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foreign and domestic. When I left that oath was not revoked. Secondly you pretended to take back your words earlier in this thread when referring to giving one a fair trail before locking them up.
> 
> Because of these two things and your offer to turn in your badge in your last post, I submit that that is exactly what you should do. Turn in your badge. You want to usurp the rights of anyone you choose. One does not need to be a Constitutional Scholar to know that all citizens of this country are afforded nay guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
> 
> I will add that you and those of your ilk are the reason a voice of reason is needed. Have a good day Sir.


You have a different view of upholding the constitution my friend; I have always believed that meant you uphold the laws of the land even if you did not agree with them? 

Point is fighting animals feathered or otherwise is against the laws of our land in all 50 states.

And yes I will uphold those laws same as I do when on occasion I give out traffic tickets, not my favorite duty by the way, but on occasion it must be done. I much more enjoy catching bad guys in stolen cars. But that’s another story for a different blog.

As for allowing someone to have their day in court, well even someone caught red handed having just committed murder gets his/her day in court.

You need to do more than just watch a power point or read excerpts of the constitution my friend. You need to study it and know it, you might be surprised by what you learn.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

rpalmer said:


> .One does not need to be a Constitutional Scholar to know that all citizens of this country are afforded nay guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

newtopidgeons said:


> rpalmer said:
> 
> 
> > .One does not need to be a Constitutional Scholar to know that all citizens of this country are afforded nay guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
> ...


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha

A lot of people mistakenly believe that we here in the U.S. have the right to the pursuit of happiness and are guaranteed justice.

We in fact are not.

We just have the "chance" for justice and the "chance" for pursuit of happiness. For instance, if not paying taxes would make you happy, you would not be allowed to be happy. If wedding your sister would make you happy, you would not be allowed to be happy. If fighting dogs against dogs would make you happy, you would not be allowed to be happy. If coming on to my property and taking what is mine , would make you happy. You are out of luck with that pursuit of happiness thing.

Sorry about all of that.

Ha Ha


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

PigeonVilla said:


> this turned out to be one crazy thread :s whoa boi !!


It's called circular logic and a red herring.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Can this thread go back on the topic. As it sure is going down hill or does it need to be closed.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

re lee said:


> Can this thread go back on the topic. As it sure is going down hill or does it need to be closed.


Sorry about that but sometimes people need to realize what they believe is not actually how things work.

Again I would ask others on this site how do we encourage people who say they want the freedom to race pigeons along side us. To give up a way of life and joins us as brothers and sisters in the AU, IF, CU European Union ECT. ECT. without having to place into our rules specifics of thou shalt not engage in fighting animals of any kind. 

I agree that most peole can over time be encouraged to quit or at least remove themselves from those types of activities. But there will always be those who refuse, because what was good for their fathers and grandfathers is all they aspire to become themselves. 

How do we encourage those people without having to put in place hard and fast rules against engaging in illegal (and Immoral) fighting of any types of animals?


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

This will be my last post here since my Brothers told me that it's waist of time to have another argument with Ron Whitmer.

You might not have said it specifically but that was your intention. Right Ron?

So what you are saying is if your friends or your related to some crooks that means your also a crook? I don't think so Ron...

I don't have to explain anything from the club. They know the reason why I leave the club. That is why members who are not scared of you, members who are sick and tired of you left the club just like what I did. So you think I was responsible why the club split. think again Ron! Everybody knows even the Concourse and AU knows that I was the victim. I don't want to go on further more detail it will just make you more Embarrassing.

I believe rpalmer is right you should just turn on your badge. Because you are just using it for your own agenda. If you think I am scared of you Ron! your totally wrong. If you run a background check on me just like what my Brothers told me and you did not find anything about my real background. That means you still don't know me and what I did for this beloved Country.

Back to your topic. If you have a problem with MOB flyers, one loft races and people who involved money with pigeon racing. Why not bring this on our Concourse meeting or bring it to AU meetings. This is not the place you should be bringing this.



Chisel and trowels is the tools I use when working on bricks.


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## fjwrt (Feb 21, 2006)

rpalmer said:


> I don't have an answer to the question. I do know that greed is not curable. I will guarantee you one thing. If ever someone shows up to a race with 200 + birds I'm pulling mine out of the race. Not because I don't stand a chance of winning but because there is no way that person has vaccinated all those birds. These are the folks who have no type of management for their birds. They just let the eggs fall and hatch and then show up with all those birds.


if you have a quality team, it does not matter how many birds the other persons ship. My father flys our old bird team, we start every year with 16 widowhood cocks, on the 300, 400, and 500 mile races there are members of our Penn-Ohio federation that will send 50 birds or more, we send 2-5 to the 400 and 500. we are still very competitive. 

HEALTH, TRAINING, AND MOTIVATION is what wins races, period. The most expensively bred pigeon will not win a race without these things. it is proven every year in our club. Many people have spent a ton more money than my father, brother and I on breeders and they do not win as often as we do.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Bluecheckard said:


> This will be my last post here since my Brothers told me that it's waist of time to have another argument with Ron Whitmer.
> 
> You might not have said it specifically but that was your intention. Right Ron?
> 
> ...


Jeffrey your brothers don't have anything to do with what happened in our club, it was your actions (totally unrelated to the chicken fighting). You ran instead of facing the club members (not me or my brother who was and still is our race secretary). You had your chance to take any issues to the concourse (I wasn’t the President then, although I am now) you could have even taken any issues to the AU. I told you to do so if you indeed felt you had been treated unfairly. Remember Jeffrey you walked away instead………

As far as running background checks on someone before they can join. I highly recommend it to all clubs to do exactly that. It can be done in about 15-30 min through any home computer. Jeffrey you came highly recommended by another member of the club at the time you joined (you quit while still a probationary member) and it was issues that person caused that you were asked to come in and talk about and you darn well know it!

Oh and by the way, no records check was ever done on you, but after the clubs experience where you were concerned we do a “basic records” check on all new potential members. We have the right to know who is asking to be involved in our club, to be allowed to be around our families and become a part of our extended family as club members. Again it was other members of the club who suggested and asked that this be done on any new potential members. 

I find it interesting that some on this site suggested that as a way to a least partially decide who is allowed into a club. Many things that have been brought up here on this site are truly club issues and should be dealt with at the club level. 

However with that said I also believe that guidelines need to be put in place by the AU, IF and the CU, at least so far as how to deal with those few people who have been or are currently involved in chicken fighting or any other type of animal fighting.

Personally I would like to see a grace period of some type, where the person has to be away from animal fighting for a period of 3-5 years before they can become members of any club and/or the AU as a whole. (By “away” I mean they have nothing at all to do with it or with those who are still doing it) 

It only makes sense to have potential new members show by their actions, not just their words, that they have changed the way they conduct themselves. Again this does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that someone can never become a member. 

I also believe if a member of the AU is arrested and convicted (at any level of involvement) in animal fighting of any type that they should be banned for life from the sport.

That is how I feel about the animal fighting part of the issues that have been raised and yes I will present that to the AU and ask that it be added to the AU bylaws, thanks for the suggestion.

As for the small team VS large team concepts that have been brought up. 

Well you also know, my sister in law won the GI Joe award for top middle distance loft in 2010 old birds. She did this and guess what never flew over 15 birds on her team. 

The same year on the national level I was in 30th place for middle distance, not bad for someone who again never flew over 20 birds to a race. 

The year before another small team flier from our club won the AU “Cher Ami” award for the top young bird team in 2009. 

Then yet another small team flier from our club won a local one loft race just this year. As you know it was a smash race and he had the only day bird. He also typically never flies over 15 birds to a race. 

So yes we as individuals and as a club try to lead by example!

I have also personally given birds to other fliers in our club just as stated in other posts; they have then turned around and beaten me with my own bloodlines. 

But you know what? I am very happy for them and I am glad to see the birds work out so well for them. 

It is the sign of an excellent breeder and bloodlines when others can take your birds and also win with them. 

So again Jeffrey I hold no ill feelings towards you! Any you have towards me are your conscience telling you that you made poor choices in life!


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

fjwrt said:


> if you have a quality team, it does not matter how many birds the other persons ship. My father flys our old bird team, we start every year with 16 widowhood cocks, on the 300, 400, and 500 mile races there are members of our Penn-Ohio federation that will send 50 birds or more, we send 2-5 to the 400 and 500. we are still very competitive.
> 
> HEALTH, TRAINING, AND MOTIVATION is what wins races, period. The most expensively bred pigeon will not win a race without these things. it is proven every year in our club. Many people have spent a ton more money than my father, brother and I on breeders and they do not win as often as we do.


You are absolutely right if you have *HEALTH, TRAINING, AND MOTIVATION* those are the main things that help you win and be competative in racing. Smart DAD!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I wrote the original article “Chasing the pot of gold” back in 1995. The words came straight from the heart and while it upset and angered some. Others agreed with my premise that too many people had lost sight of what pigeon racing was really all about. The original article can be found in the archives on this site and in the archives in the online Winning magazine. In reading over some of what I have read recently in this forum and even more so in other magazines, I thought it was time to address some of the issues again.
> 
> ...


 I am trying to figure out what exactly this thread is suppose to be about ?  The posts have gone so far afield, from chicken fighting, the US Constitution, doing back ground checks to check for I'm not sure what, to some local clubs internal politics, mob fliers, being in the sport for "the money", not helping new folks, etc. etc. etc. This appears to be one of the most long winded threads about everything and about nothing. 

One of the reasons why I have been investing more of my time out in my loft, instead of reading threads such as this. Seems like it started off as a basic gripe about where the focus is of other fanciers. I am sort of reminded of a famous quote regarding paying to much attention to the splinter in your neighbor's eye, while not attending to the board in your own eye. I'm thinking this thread has gone so far out in left field, because that the orginal topic was just too wide in scope ? 

I think, although I am not sure, that the orginal idea, was that fanciers should not sell their pigeons to folks from the far east, or to each other, instead it should remain a hobby, or something along those lines. That there should not be One Loft races, etc. And/or how one is to "teach" new members to the hobby/sport/business about different charactors out there in the world ? 

The question that first jumps into my mind, is how is pigeon racing any different from any other sport/hobby/group in terms of human character ? What sport does not have a money angle ? Football, basketball, golf, horse racing, etc. etc. etc.  Same with various non-profit types of organizations such as VFW, American Legion, Lions, Jaycees, Churches, politcal groups etc etc ? Which sport/organization/groups does not have coaches, owners, agents, players, fans, directors, officers, members etc etc that may not operate in the best long term interests of the sport/game/organization ? I am sorry, I guess I am just lost as far as what the point is/was ?


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

lawman said:


> However with that said I also believe that guidelines need to be put in place by the AU, IF and the CU, at least so far as how to deal with those few people who have been or are currently involved in chicken fighting or any other type of animal fighting.


This thread is just the beginning of his agenda, he intends on strong arming his ideas on America. The other cop is in the same boat. There are more people here, probably his club, and deffinantly America that do not agree now, but the more people he can convience then he will have the head steam for his racket. I think no man that is out to harm another man in anyway should be allowed in any club. They let cops hire in and push thier ideas on our streets they have both said THEY decide who goes to jail. The THINK they decide who goes to right. I like to meet both of them actually as I only fear God.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

You've got the wrong attitude bud. Guess who's out there in harms way making the hard decisions? You might not agree with them 100%, but they're the ones doing it. Don't be an armchair warrior.

I have first hand experience with what lawman is talking about as I used to fly in the 395 concourse and have visited the one ex-chicken fighters home he spoke of. I do not envy his position as President of the concourse and commend him for stepping up and wanting to fix some of the issues with the southern California racing scene.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello Warren, it has been a long time.

You’re absolutely right it all got side tracked a bit, not that those were not also valid arguments in and of themselves. Just not directly related to the original argument back in 1995 or the one I was trying to continue this time. 

Back in 1995 at least in my area we had the “money men” (I called them) coming and buying any bird that had a diploma for $500.00. We had top fliers back then and to some extent even now (although they are not as in your face about it) that still do this. 

What happens is they sell of the very best of the year’s crop of young birds. Then the next year, they must breed more birds to get the same results. They continue in this manner, each year having to breed and race more and more birds to get the same results. 

Then after several years of depleting the best they have produced, guess what they are left with nothing to replace their old stock birds. Some will go out and spend all of their profits to replace or replenish the stock birds in hopes of staying on top.

Others are more insidious about what they do. They go about changing race stations; they do it in the hope of again getting wind advantages in their favor. That or they water down race rules to the point that they become UN-enforceable ( let your mind travel on what then occurs). Then it takes sometimes years to fix what they have done. 

Now before anyone goes off the deep end on me here, take a moment, sit there and take a deep breath find your Zen spot so you can relax a bit. 

Side note: I personally think if we changed racing directions each year we would remove the whole idea of being in the main line of flight right out of the door. In that respect I think the way it is done in Oklahoma is a good idea. If each year the direction of the race course changes, the guy on the short this year would be on the long or middle next year and so on. No one can or should get upset over the direction because it never stays the same. Then you would truly see whose birds could do it all.

Back to topic; Now we see the influx of a group of people who while in some cases make great competitors. They come from a culture that thinks any trick no matter how evil, is OK. After all the entire culture of fighting any animals, comes from the dark ages in my sometimes not so humble opinion.

They come to us in most cases after things become too hot for them to continue fighting animals. If they truly walk away from that life style I welcome them. 

By the way I know a few who have done just that, but again I believe them to be the exceptions and not the rule.

As I said I believe they are drawn to our sport not out of a love of the sport or the birds themselves. They are drawn to it out of the lure of easy money. In some cases they want to usurp those selling diploma birds to the “money men”. They start out with a few birds and next thing you know thay are following the same rat race as other mass fliers. Then you have those who get invovled due to the lure of easy moneyfrom the of one loft races with high jack pots. 

“Condition freak” had a really good idea  what if all of the single loft money races, charged you a perch fee only, then on race day you paid for shipping based on the number of birds going to the race station. No big prize money allotment, no pooling, nothing but bragging rights to having had the best bird out on the race course that day. 

WOW what a novel idea! I wonder just how many of the money pits would have the guts to enter a one loft race or series of races that did not contain any type of payout? Just bragging rights. I love the idea of it, then the true lovers of our sport would also come out a play.

I truly do not think the issue I brought up of animal fighter joining our ranks would even be an issue. As most of them, (the ones who do not come to the sport simply for the love of it anyway) would most likely take their money elsewhere.


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree here, the only way to make shure money is not the root of pigeon racing is to not let it. Thats it simple, dont ban individuals ban the money prize. I never plan on sending a single bird to a one loft race myself, I just want to race pigeons period. I cannot afford to build a one loft race here at my house and I can asshure you it is not my plan to ever build a one loft race. I dont see any legal way of making money at a club leval, nor the reason to ban anybody that is not in volved with illegal activities from a pigeon racing club. If your really worried dont support money races period, dont bet dont sale pigeons. If you cant agree an ex-cockfighter or even an active cockfighter in a legal place is not a better applicant for a pigeon racing club then even a drunk then your are only against cockfighters. wh did you evade my question before where I asked this same question in different words? You just took the word Indian and went off on that and religion. I quoted you and you evaded that as well. Your agenda is clear, lawman.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

newtopidgeons said:


> I agree here, the only way to make shure money is not the root of pigeon racing is to not let it. Thats it simple, dont ban individuals ban the money prize. I never plan on sending a single bird to a one loft race myself, I just want to race pigeons period. I cannot afford to build a one loft race here at my house and I can asshure you it is not my plan to ever build a one loft race. I dont see any legal way of making money at a club leval, nor the reason to ban anybody that is not in volved with illegal activities from a pigeon racing club. If your really worried dont support money races period, dont bet dont sale pigeons. If you cant agree an ex-cockfighter or even an active cockfighter in a legal place is not a better applicant for a pigeon racing club then even a drunk then your are only against cockfighters. wh did you evade my question before where I asked this same question in different words? You just took the word Indian and went off on that and religion. I quoted you and you evaded that as well. Your agenda is clear, lawman.


*I'll quote myself for this answer:*

"You go off on tangents that have no relative meaning to the discussion bringing in peoples "race and religion" to the argument. That is why I private messaged you and advised you that it was not needed, whether you did it intentionally or not does not matter one bit young friend.

Go back and read my posts, without getting angry or having your eyes burn out of their sockets. Read the words and let them fully sink in. You will find we are probably more alike than you care to believe."

There is an old saying from my days in the Army, "If you are not a part of the solution to a problem, then you are part of the problem" 

I raised valid concerns, so have some others on here of the problems associated with those who chose to engage in illegal activities. You and some others want everyone to turn a blind eye to the issue. I want real solutions! Help find those solutions, don't be part of the problem. 

If you cannot or will not be part of find valid solutions to an issue, you do not have the right to complain when the issues are solved in a mannor that you don't like!

Now its time to go watch the birds come in (race day don't you know) Hope everyone has a good race.

Lawman


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## newtopidgeons (Mar 11, 2011)

newtopidgeons said:


> I agree here, the only way to make shure money is not the root of pigeon racing is to not let it. .


Here is my answer you must not like, I dont have a bird in the race but I watched them come home yesterday ya know. Turn in clocks tonight.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

lawman said:


> *I'll quote myself for this answer:*
> 
> "You go off on tangents that have no relative meaning to the discussion bringing in peoples "race and religion" to the argument. That is why I private messaged you and advised you that it was not needed, whether you did it intentionally or not does not matter one bit young friend.
> 
> ...


OK lets see In most areas No one is fighting birds or animals If you have that problem in your area It is an isolated problem NOT national as you seem to think. Yes hidden from knowing Eyes it goes on. But most people who raise pigeons are not fighting chickens and never have. Sure some may have and they stopped when laws were past. I would never think of asking a person do they fight birds or animals That was wanting to be a new club member in a club.Sure there can be rules at the national level where the local level could enforce. And back ground checks to get in a club Well thats not nessasary to me. Being a good sport trying to be part of the hobby Is enough SURE there are bad people in the hobby And they get exposed over time. Doctoring pedigrees to sell birds. And other things But all in all the hobby is ran rather well. People get mad when they fail to win and that is DUMB. Far as flying around the clock That wrks BUT remember it also makes you breed different lines As the weather also changes in the winds. NOT like europe type races where the same race course is year after year. Making it easyer to build a working line of birds As many people fail to see. Birds for the coarse so to speak. This subject is leaning to only the keeping out of cock fighters in clubs That would be a local matter Turn them in if you know they do that and they get fined and removed from the clubs That simple. But agin Not a national problem where just a few clubs might have that going on But A few at best. Selling birds till it hurts does just that the person goes down hill in performance AND sell go down also. Mob flying many clubs have a number that you can enter in a race. Easy to remedy there. Clubs working toghter with ALL members make better clubs. Many fail to do that these days. Cut throat for a win Hate the winners. And refuse to sell birds to memebers ECt the list goes on. Where clubs used educate . and work well together. To work on the week things to improve the club seem better then to check all members out and have the new members be on probation This is not the masonic lodge. Nor a private club where one must be recomended by another member. If so where is the hobby going. This art of pigeon breeding is a dieing hobby Has been for many years. And the future is the NEW people Sure some do not see it as dieing. But I can remmber so many more lofts and people in many a town and city And NOW days not near as many. Trying more to bring people into the hobby is better then trying more to bring in only certion people into the hobby. Lets remember its not about the people you fly aginst its how you can try to be a better flyer aginst them and a good friend to them in the hobby. Good friends in the hobby is like good pigeons in your loft YOU ENJOY THEM>


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

This is getting haywire.

It touches everything from character, money and politics.

It seems that joining lawman's pigeon club would be like applying to be a police officers or FBI agents. Basically a clean record. (We might as well have pigeon test examination to make sure that the candidate have some intelligence.)

Background check is required. (This is hot topic these days because it seemed to be being abused in many fronts).

Business people who only wants money (using pigeon as sports) are also not allowed.

Being associated or have records for animal fighting also prevents you from joining.

It is one exclusive club!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

fjwrt said:


> if you have a quality team, it does not matter how many birds the other persons ship. My father flys our old bird team, we start every year with 16 widowhood cocks, on the 300, 400, and 500 mile races there are members of our Penn-Ohio federation that will send 50 birds or more, we send 2-5 to the 400 and 500. we are still very competitive.
> 
> *HEALTH, TRAINING, AND MOTIVATION is what wins races, period.* The most expensively bred pigeon will not win a race without these things. it is proven every year in our club. Many people have spent a ton more money than my father, brother and I on breeders and they do not win as often as we do.


I wish that would be true, but a counter-argument can disprove that. Here is one: You subject all your birds with the same training, same feeding regimen, same motivation and yet some of them don't win.

But I must agree that health, training, motivation is a base for winning pigeons.


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