# Falconer Wants to trap a cooper's hawk - S. Houston



## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

I just joined this forum to try to contact any pigeon owners in the League City, TX (S. Houston/Galveston) area. I am a licensed falconer and I am interested in placing a hawk trap near a loft. If you are having problems with cooper's hawks, please let me know. That is the species I am targeting. 

I will provide all paperwork so that you know this is legitimate. This is all legal and above board. 

I know that cooper's hawks are everywhere, but I have had great success in the past trapping them at pigeon lofts. I will be glad to help you by removing a troublesome hawk, and in turn you will be helping me. Thanks.

Feel free to PM me or leave a message on the forum. I'll get back to you.

Jamie


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

and what do you do with them after you catch them if i may ask..i have a few around here but i would never catch them or have them removed they eat the mice and snakes around here, yes they land on my loft, but it is all apart of nature for them to catch a bird now and then when people fly. there may not be as many problems if people read up on them, watch them and know their routine. It is getting cooler soon cold in some places and hawks will be at their highest to find food, so any smart pigeon racer or fancier will know not to fly in the winter at certain times of the day...just my opinion


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Since I am a falconer, I hunt with the bird. I am not into keeping hawks for pets. They don't make very good ones. 

It takes a few weeks to get it properly trained, and in about a month the hawk is generally starting to catch birds. I will be targeting starlings, and sparrows until the hawk gets a few birds under his belt. After that, we will move on to doves and quail. I have a male vizsla (pointer) that I hunt with. They will work together. I will hunt with the hawk until March and release it at that time. It can continue its migration back up North. In the meantime, it gets a meal everyday (and won't be hitting any lofts during those 4-5 months).

I have been a falconer for 16 years, and I have enjoyed nearly every minute of it.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

I'll make a bet that if you explain what a hawk trap is and how to use it, supply your address .... you will soon be receiving dozens of them from happy pigeon owners..

On a more serious note. I always have understood that hawks and falcons used in your sport were taken from the nest as babies and raised and trained from that point. It appears I am wrong and you have piqued my curiosity as to how you do obtain birds. Is it some type of walk in trap or something completely strange.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Dunners, as long as you can verify that all of this is legal, you might get some interest here. People on the Forum will understandingly be cautious about this just because of being unfamiliar w/the legality of it; and also because...well, to put it bluntly...they would be inviting a falconer over to their Pigeon Loft (not exactly the first thing a Pigeon fancier would consider doing, y'know ?).

Just pointing this out. Thanks.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Maniac,
What you thought about falconry was also true. A young bird taken from the nest is called an eyass, and this is legal (with the correct state and/or federal permits) in most states. I prefer to trap what is referred to as a passage hawk - a bird on its first migration. Adult hawks (haggards) may not be kept, and must be released.

There are many traps I use, but this one uses a spring loaded release that the hawk triggers on its way to the live bait - a pigeon in this case. BTW, the pigeon is separated by a cage and cannot be harmed.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Jaye,
I have the TPWD paperwork to verify that it is legal. There are licensed falconers in every state except Hawaii. Rest assured, no one will get in trouble. I will be happy to provide the legal paperwork to anyone who is willing to take me up on the offer. They can even call TPWD to confirm that it is all on the up and up.

Actually, I had several pigeon fancier friends and game farm owners call me when I lived in Missouri. One called me every year. I kept some birds, released some, and transferred others to other falconers in the area. 

One time a guy called me and he was furious. He said that he had a cooper's hawk in his loft and asked if I'd come get it. He had one of those trap doors on his flight loft (you all would know what it's called - I don't), and the hawk got in, but couldn't get out. It ate the heads of 6 pigeons, left 2 alive, and was feeding on another one when I looked in. I understand why you guys don't like the hawks, but the falconer is only helping remove the hawk. No need to dislike us.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I suggest you refrain from discussing hunting on here.

If people want to take you up on your offer, so be it.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

One of the guys in our combine brought a friend to a combine meeting one time. This friend was a falconer. It seemed a little strange to me, but the veterans in the combine were really upset.

The way they saw it was that this falconer could become privy to when we raced, where we raced from, and what paths the birds might take. It seems that they did not think letting someone who uses hawks for what you use them for, should be apprised of when and where our birds are racing. I personally did not see it as that big of a deal as any racing pigeon on the fly should be able to out race a hawk sent from ground level (if something like that would occur). But many of them were upset with the member who brought that friend.

I would assume that a falconer has a limit on how many birds he or she can acquire? You could not go into the "business" of catching hawks in the area of pigeon lofts, could you? Legally?


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

You are correct that not only would it not be feasible for a falconer to plan to "intercept" racing pigeons, it would also be unethical. I don't personally know any falconers that would try something like that. It would also be impossible for a falconer to get a bird in the air quickly enough to actually accomplish that.

You are also correct about the number of birds allowed. This is from the federal falconry regulations (Title 50: CFR § 21.29 Falconry standards and falconry permitting).

(2) How and when you may take raptors from the wild to use in falconry. You may take no more than two raptors from the wild each year to use in falconry.

(i) If you transfer a bird you take from the wild to another permittee in the same year in which you capture it, the bird will count as one of the raptors you are allowed to take from the wild that year; it will not count as a capture by the recipient, though it will always be considered a wild bird.

Also:
(4) Selling or trading raptors under a falconry permit. (i) If allowed by your State, tribe or territory, you may sell, purchase, or barter, or offer to sell, purchase, or barter captive-bred raptors marked with seamless bands to other permittees who are authorized to possess them.

(ii) You may not purchase, sell, trade, or barter wild raptors. You may only transfer them.

I don't mean to get off on separate topics, but I hope that I can alleviate some of the concerns many of you will have about this topic and answer some of the questions. I realize that it is an unusual sport/hobby. Pigeon racing is a bit unusual also.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

BTW, I only want one cooper's hawk.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

John_D said:


> I suggest you refrain from discussing hunting on here.
> 
> If people want to take you up on your offer, so be it.



Your comment seems a little harsh as he hasn't really discussed hunting except to touch briefly on what he hunts and I think that was more to reassure some members that pigeons were not his thing.

From a personal standpoint I am always interested in learning new things and as I don't frequent falconry sites this seemed to be the perfect opportunity to clarify some things. I learned some new words that designate bird stages in that field, I learned that hawks can also be live trapped as well as taken from the nest and I met an interesting fellow who broadened my knowledge.

Dunners .. that door you referred to is called a trap. I am not at all uncomfortable with your request and I hope you find a pigeon fancier close by you who has suffered from ongoing hawk attacks, who will be happy to have it removed humanely.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Maniac,
I appreciate your comments. 

I hope someone takes me up on it too. Otherwise it will just go in the field behind my house. I see at least one cooper's hawk nearly every day this time of year. I'd rather have a hawk attractant (pigeon loft) to place the trap near though.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

maniac said:


> Your comment seems a little harsh as he hasn't really discussed hunting except to touch briefly on what he hunts and I think that was more to reassure some members that pigeons were not his thing.


Just a word of caution to forestall any further discussion on it, as newer members may not be aware of what is on or off limits


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

But...you're gonna catch doves! as in, the pigeons sister!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Very interesting stuff. I learned something today.

I don't agree with the concept, but I did learn.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

November-X-Scourge said:


> But...you're gonna catch doves! as in, the pigeons sister!



Not to preach nor editorialize but does it really make a difference in the grand scheme of life. Raptors are going to forage regardless of what we wish. Crows and ***** and squirrels are going to be robbing their (as well as other bird's {can you say dove}) nests for eggs and young. Old, crippled and sick birds will always be the first choice of raptors because nature just works that way.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

They too do have to eat..so if he only gets one cooper..that may save allot of pigeons..


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## blacksheep (May 8, 2010)

*Interesting!*

I've always been intrigued by Falconry. I think birds of prey are absolutely beautiful, even rivaling that of the pigeon. 

It's too bad you aren't closer to WI. Taken just a few days ago. I believe it's a male, because they are smaller than the females.........correct? He also looks to be a young bird, just because of how small he is, or maybe I'm way off and its a young redtail.










Good luck to you.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

dunners said:


> Since I am a falconer, I hunt with the bird. I am not into keeping hawks for pets. They don't make very good ones.
> 
> It takes a few weeks to get it properly trained, and in about a month the hawk is generally starting to catch birds. I will be targeting starlings, and sparrows until the hawk gets a few birds under his belt. After that, we will move on to doves and quail. I have a male vizsla (pointer) that I hunt with. They will work together. I will hunt with the hawk until March and release it at that time. It can continue its migration back up North. In the meantime, it gets a meal everyday (and won't be hitting any lofts during those 4-5 months).
> 
> I have been a falconer for 16 years, and I have enjoyed nearly every minute of it.


*I have a question. Will you be breeding this hawk at any time and will be turning any young out into the wild. *
GEORGE


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

Do they ever use eagles in falconry? If not,why? I would think working with a eagle would be the ultimate.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

I don't believe they do in the Americas but I have seen utube videos of Brown Eagles catching wolves and deer in Afghanistan.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Blacksheep,
From the picture it is difficult to say if that bird is a male or female. You are correct that the male is smaller than the female. It is referred to as reversed sexual dimorphism. The male falcon is called a tiercel, meaning 1/3, because the males of most raptor species are generally 1/3 smaller than the females.

The bird in the picture is a juvenile cooper's hawk (<1 yr). The adults have have gray coverts, a dark capped head, and a darker barred tail.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

George Simon,
I will not be breeding this hawk. 1) I don't have a propagation permit, 2) cooper's hawks are plentiful in the wild and do not need any help in that area.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Golden eagles are used for falconry in the United States. Legally they can only be taken from the wild and only in depredation areas - areas where they are causing damage to livestock (sheep and cattle specifically). They can only be obtained and trained by master falconers ( a legal designation based on years of experience). Bald eagles are not currently allowed to be used in falconry.

Eagles are used in falconry predominantly in the Western United States. Because of their size, they require wide open spaces. The Houston area is not too conducive to this.

In Europe they are used widely, as was previously mentioned. In Kazakhstan and Mongolia golden eagles are part of a strong tradition of falconry. In South Africa, Namibia, and Zimbabwe falconers use a wide variety of eagle species.


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## logangrmnr (Jul 14, 2010)

I really liked all the Q and A for this thread. Learned something new. Good luck on your search.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I wished you lived closer.

You might have already seen this but a simple Google search for Houston pigeon clubs pulled up a few hits. 

Here is one that lists all the club members in Texas with email and phone. Scroll down and find cities that are near you. Good Luck...

http://txcenter.org/members/members_clubs.htm


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

I did find a list, but this one wasn't the one I saw. If I don't get any bites on here, I'll make some calls this weekend. I'm hoping to get started Sunday or Monday. A cold front (well cooler anyway) is coming through this week. It will push the birds south. Thanks for your help.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

logangrmnr said:


> I really liked all the Q and A for this thread. Learned something new. Good luck on your search.


I agree, I have looked into the sport before and find it intriguing. 

*dunners* Maybe I missed it in the thread but have you been doing this for a while? Or will this be your first potential bird? Do you have any pictures of your birds? If so I would leave out ones of them eating as I know some users would find the disturbing...


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

I will try to see if I can come up with some photos later tonight or tomorrow. I have a couple of photos on my computer, but they are pretty lousy.

I am a master falconer (16 year) by legal definition and sometimes in practice too. I have trained many hawks and falcons - wild and captive bred. I have some favorite species, and I usually stick to redtailed hawks, coopers hawks, peregrine falcons, and an occasional kestrel.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

If you lose a bird, does it stil have something attached to its leg? Can that get caught on a tree limb or fence?

I always wonder about that.

I had a falconer tell me once that he lost a bird that was worth six thousand dollars. He said he sent it after something and it just kept going. He said that he scoured the area looking for it for says, but could find no sign of it. I didn't ask, but assumed that he had purchased it. But your posts make me think he must have been talking about what his time and effort for the training was worth.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

Very interesting stuff. Where can I learn more about this sport? I did a search but was over whelmed. shoot me a pm if you have a chance.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

If a bird is lost it likely will have various items still attached. The anklets, which are attached by grommets would remain attached as well as the jesses (the straps used to tether the bird while on the glove or perched). All of the equipment is made of leather. The jesses can simply be pulled out by the bird using its beak. I had a cooper's hawk that constantly pulled his out. The anklets (if made using a grommet - some are not) will deteriorate and the bird will tear the anklet away, also using its beak. Anklets without grommets can simply be removed by the hawk. 

Of course, when we release them back into the wild, we remove all of the equipment. If telemetry was attached to the bird, that will be gone within a week. The bird will simply discard it while preening. There is a chance for injury if equipment remains attached, but I think it is remote.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Thunderbird Racing

PM Sent.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Here are a few pictures. I couldn't find anything really good, but this is what I had handy.

Peregrine headshot from a few years ago.










Another peregrine (had to correct the redeye on this one)










Adult Cooper's Hawk that I trapped in a pigeon racer's yard in Missouri. This one was released.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Nice shots, thanks. You probably gave a few on here a scare with them. =]
We have two Harris Hawks around our lofts. Looking at pics they appear to be juvi's Neither one has caught a bird and our birds fly circles right around them. I hope this remains the case as they should keep other Hawks away right?


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Yeah, the first picture looks a little menacing, but even when a raptor seems to be happy, they still look mean.

The young harris' hawks will probably move along pretty soon, but the species is gregarious (they hunt together in packs, essentially), so it is possible they will hang around with a larger family. They do go after birds, but a strong pigeon should be able to evade a young, inexperienced harris' hawk, unless it is caught off guard. The presence of resident adult harris' hawks would act as a deterrent to some other raptor species, but only to a limited degree.


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

I am enjoying this thread  When you have a chance drive up to the DFW area, you can get more than you need in my backyard


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

We have a pigeon flyer here on Long Island who also breeds and trains hawks. He hasn't flown in a couple of years but when he did he was really good. I always thought he could have used the hawks he trained to keep he birds scared to be outside. Which would make them fly home faster. I know every time I have a hawk problem my birds trap faster on race day.

Dunners do you have any tips for us racers how to keep coopers hawks from sitting on the coop all day? These things aren't scared of ppl anymore around here. Atleast years ago if you went outside they'd fly away but now it's like you can't even chase them away.


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## Birdman79 (Aug 9, 2007)

I heard coopers are hard headed to use for falconering compared to red tails,any truth to that?.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Pigeon0446,
I don't have much advice regarding keeping hawk away from your lofts. The movement of so many confined pigeons in a small area is a great attractant. I know that my pigeon owner friends in STL always just quit flying their pigeons for a couple of months. Another thing to consider is that rollers really attract hawks. My most reliable trapping location was the loft with the rollers. Pigeons tumbling out of the air appear to be injured (easy/weak) prey for a hawk. So, I would think that roller owners especially should be careful during the fall raptor migration.

Birdman79,
You're correct about the difficulty of a cooper's hawk. Redtails are very easy to train. Cooper's hawks take a bit more patience. They have a high metabolism and are very high strung. They are reaction hunters and sprinters, so they always seem to be in high gear.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

I've had a bit of a setback... I have visitors from STL coming to visit this week that I had forgotten about, so I won't be able to get the trap out until next week. So, if you're in the S. Houston area, and you have a hawk problem, let me know. It's not too late.

I'm going to call some local pigeon owners this week. I'll try to let everyone know how things go over the next few weeks. Sometimes, this process takes a while. Sometimes I get one on the first day.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

dunners said:


> Pigeon0446,
> I don't have much advice regarding keeping hawk away from your lofts. The movement of so many confined pigeons in a small area is a great attractant. I know that my pigeon owner friends in STL always just quit flying their pigeons for a couple of months. Another thing to consider is that rollers really attract hawks. My most reliable trapping location was the loft with the rollers. Pigeons tumbling out of the air appear to be injured (easy/weak) prey for a hawk. So, I would think that roller owners especially should be careful during the fall raptor migration.
> 
> Birdman79,
> You're correct about the difficulty of a cooper's hawk. Redtails are very easy to train. Cooper's hawks take a bit more patience. They have a high metabolism and are very high strung. They are reaction hunters and sprinters, so they always seem to be in high gear.


Yeah I know I can't let my birds out to bum 8 out of the 12 months of the year without getting killed by coopers. It wouldn't be bad if it was only late fall and winter like it used to be but now there's so many of them they'll sit on the loft all year long now. The only time my birds are out of the loft is when they are on their way home from a toss. But like last year there was one that would be on the coop when the birds would get home and then the birds wouldn't land when they got home from the races. They'd fly for a couple mins to make sure the coast was clear b4 they would land and run right in.


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## MyAbusa (Mar 15, 2011)

dunners said:


> I've had a bit of a setback... I have visitors from STL coming to visit this week that I had forgotten about, so I won't be able to get the trap out until next week. So, if you're in the S. Houston area, and you have a hawk problem, let me know. It's not too late.
> 
> I'm going to call some local pigeon owners this week. I'll try to let everyone know how things go over the next few weeks. Sometimes, this process takes a while. Sometimes I get one on the first day.


Dunners, fantastic explanation of falconry & best of luck in your trapping. Be sure to share some photos.

Like Dunners, I’m also a falconer. I’ve been lurking on the forum for some time now as I’m very interested in keeping pigeons & will be building a loft very soon. Anyhow, it’s exciting to see such a positive & interested response to falconry from the members of this forum.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

Abusa,
Welcome. Hopefully you can help shed some light on the subject of falconry if more questions are forthcoming.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

To those of your who provided contact info, thanks for your help. I managed to find a couple guys who fly pigeons only a couple of miles from my house. I set up at one of their lofts. Unfortunately, after a month of trapping, I only got an adult redtailed hawk and an adult redshouldered hawk. I released both of them (no worse for wear) back into the wild a few miles away from the loft.

Today was my deadline for trapping a cooper's hawk. I have back-up options (captive bred peregrines that I have access to), but the area I live in is ideal for cooper's hawks. I just haven't been seeing any now for several weeks, aside from a push we got about a week ago from a cold weather front. I saw one cooper's and by the time I got back with the trap, it was gone.

I might just take the season off and start again next year.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

For those who are still interested in this thread...

I was down to my last hour on the last day of my self-established trapping deadline, and when I checked the trap, I could see that the trap was sprung. I went out and found this:










Unfortunately, it is an adult cooper's hawk, and I had to release it. I tried for about 5 weeks at the pigeon loft and didn't catch any (which was a first), and I only tried for 3 days in the field behind my house. So, I'm encouraged a bit, and I'll keep trying through the end of the week. I'll post again if I get something I can keep.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

good looking fella isn't he/she


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

What a beautiful bird.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

He was good looking. It is a nearly 2 yr. old male. He was an average size for a male. The eyes are barely orange (they get redder as they get older), and his back still had some brown feathers, indicating that he just finished his first moult.


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## MyAbusa (Mar 15, 2011)

Great looking bird... Sorry it's a hag. Coopers have been pretty rare in my neck of the woods but it's heaven for those interested in sharpies.


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## wasdunners (Sep 23, 2011)

MyAbusa said:


> Great looking bird... Sorry it's a hag. Coopers have been pretty rare in my neck of the woods but it's heaven for those interested in sharpies.


I'm sorry too. He was in great shape. Feather perfect and nice looking feet. I'd take a hen sharpy too though.


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