# Dirty Factor-Australian Performing Tumblers



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Attached are a random selection of pictures of birds I've bred this season with the "Dirty Factor". This is the first time I've bred with the tumblers and didn't know some of them had it. It looks like it's going to be a nuisance and hard to get rid of. I have some of the only blue bars around in this breed and they both have the dirty factor. Both the parents are split for blue bar and have the dirty factor as well unfortunately.


Just though this may be of interest to those who haven't seen it before.

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2077


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## fantailgyrl (Jul 10, 2010)

*hmm*

whats the dirty factor mean ?? they look like pretty babys to me


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Dirty is a color modifier that darkens the color of the feathers and skin. It's dominant so mate them to birds that aren't dirty and keep selecting against it.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

fantailgyrl said:


> whats the dirty factor mean ?? they look like pretty babys to me


It's genetic speak - basically it is a gene that causes the pigeons base colour, Beak and toe nails to darken. It gives blue bars a dirty look to them hence the name


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

My dilemma is that I have a kite hen and a dark checker cock that are spit for blue bar. One has to have and other may have the dirty factor. Both my blue bar young are dirty (as are the dark checker young I bred from this pair). I need to find out if one of the parents isn't dirty. If one isn't and I can pair it with a blue bar young I should get a normal blue bar eventually. If both the parents are dirty I have a problem. 

What I don't understand is there are breeders going to great lengths to breed a blue bar APT. I have managed to unknowingly get two birds from a breeder that are split for bar. I was given the birds to get me started with my tumblers. I thought the couple of other birds I had were better so I wasn't going to breed with them. I decided to put this pair together to use as feeders for either rollers or tumblers depending on the timing of eggs. I raised a pair of rollers with them. They laid again and I let them sit but I didn't get any eggs at the right time so I decide to let them raise the young. I then get two blue bar young in the same round??

This is a picture of the parents of the blue bars with some young rollers they raised.


John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

They both look heterygous dirty, but it can be hard to say.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm not sure how to tell by looking at these two birds.

John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

They look darker overall. Nails should be blacker and beak darker. The underside and the tail really don't seem that dirty. But there are believed to be multiply dirty genes. So there's a lot of different phenotypes. You could have both dirty genes at the same time. Though I don't think that's the case here.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It isn't always possible to tell homozygous dirty from heterozygous dirty. It very much depends on the kind of dirty. There is definitely more than one mutation tha causes hypermelanism, some say there might be up to 7 different dirty genes.

The only way to get rid of the dirty would be trial and error, untill you actually manage to breed a bird that is not dirty (in other words, breed LOTS of birds). From then onwards, mating the wilt-type to its het dirty parent, you could breen 50% wild-type. Then you could breed together the birds that aren't dirty, and begin a line of closely line bred birds that do not have dirty.

Some breeds are homozygous dirty, by selection. If your birds are such a breed, it would be impossible to breed birds that are not dirty without an outcross and strict inbreeding and selection afterwards.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Looking forward to taking the blue bars to the shows. Maybe I could track down another bird to help. I've been told my the President of a large club, who I have got to know well, that my blue bars and checkers are special? He very successfully showed this breed and many others over the years. I just wonder if they are uncommon because everyone has been breeding the reds, yellows, kites and almonds. If my two breeders are both split for bar it had to come from somewhere. I'll see if I can find out some background on the parent birds. I might find a suitable bird that will help me breed a blue bar without the dirty factor next season.

Thanks,

John


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It is oftern rare to find blue bars in the predominantly almond breeds. Since rec red, and dilute and T-pattern kite all can enhance almond (in fact red and kite are necessary for proper classical almonds and homozygous almonds rarely hatch / survive) these factors are often common in the shows for these breeds too. At least that is my opinion


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree with Rudoplh that one is unlikely to guess whether a bird is het or **** dirty from a pic. I have thiefs that I have test bred to blue bars, they both look exactly the same, One has produced 10 babies, All dirty and the other has produced 9 babies - 4 of them being wild type 5 being dirty. It is not conclusive that the first bird of mine is **** dirty but from breeding 10 I would have expected odds to allow atleast one to come through wildtype. The type of dirty I have seems to be very similar in expression regardless of how many doses the bird has.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan, Rudolph,

I was looking at the hen and cock this afternoon. The hen has the white edge on the outside tail feathers. Could this be a clue? The cock doesn't, like the smokey, dirty rollers.

I am about to email the breeder I got the birds from and see if he can help with the background of the two birds. 

John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

That means the bird is not smokey.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Evan, Rudolph,
> 
> I was looking at the hen and cock this afternoon. The hen has the white edge on the outside tail feathers. Could this be a clue? The cock doesn't, like the smokey, dirty rollers.
> 
> ...


Interesting, It shows me that dirty the cock carries in this case has covered the lightening effect that smoky has on the beak. Both those beaks look black to me.

Like Logan said the hen is not **** smoky but if it only has half a strip it could mean she is het for smoky

Smoky is recessive autosomal so both cocks and hens need two genes for it to show - in two doses it smudges the pattern, lightens the beak and skin colour and removes the albescent strip. 

In a het form (one dose ) it can remove half the albescent strip but I am not sure how prooven this is

It is classed as one of 3 darkening modifiers, smoky (recessive autosomal) - sooty (autosomal dominant) and dirty and its different types of which I believe are autosomal dominants but with all the different types it could be otherwise, The type I have appears autosomal dominant and I have ruled out it being sex linked in anyway.

you may know this but it helps me to remember everything if I keep writing it down.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Evan,

Sad day for Christchurch today,

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Thanks Evan,
> 
> Sad day for Christchurch today,
> 
> John


Yeah it was sad, Saw when a city falls the documentary. It was really good, Would recommend it. Has a lot of pigeons living in all the collapsed buildings


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I contacted the breeder last night. As it turns out the hen is the mother of the cock. The hen is a 2007 bird and the cock bred in 2010. Nothing specific about each bird to report other than they have almond, kite and deroy in their background. The chances of me pairing a t checker split for bar hen with an offspring split for bar from a t checker pairing are pretty slim but I managed it! The breeder believes that both will have the dirty factor.

John


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## speros (Jul 20, 2013)

you worry too much JOHN


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