# Need help! Very sick, possibly egg bound too?



## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

About a week+ ago someone brought me two sick birds they found on their doorstep. Fantails, one white and one brown. They both where literally starving. No breast muscle, and had/still have severe respiratory infection. They where gurgly at times-now still very sick, open mouthed breathing, tails bobbing with every breath. I put them on Bayrtril, and as they didn't seem much better after several days I called the vet (thank God I finally found one here who knows something about birds-not sure how good he is yet but...) he said to go ahead and change the antibiotic to tetracycline which I did. It has been three days, I can't see any great improvement, but maybe a little less open mouthed breathing. Both birds are eating and drinking although one has put on more weight than the other. I started hand feeding and watering them about the same time I switched antibiotics, I honestly have been surprised that they made it the last couple of days. They where so emaciated. 
The white bird has been trying to 'nest in the food bowl since they came. This past evening/night she has been letting her wings droop below her body and her lower back seems to be raised and the feathers there are fluffed out-seperated-know what I mean? The posture made me think possibly egg bound. So I felt the area. I don't feel anything at the vent, I feel the pelvic bone then there should be a soft space right? With nothing really noticeable to feel-just soft tissue? Well between the pelvic bone and the base of the keel I feel something, though not hard like and egg, but sort of oval shaped and rather firm, but feels a little flat on the ventral side-could this be an egg that is a little soft and/or malformed? Or could it be some internal organ that has swollen due to disease?
I checked the other bird also. I felt something similar, but this very firm lumpish thing is much higher up more like under the base of the keel. 
I've been searching for similar threads, but I haven't found one that is quite the same. Nobody has mentioned exactly where the egg should be, or what it feels like. That is of course if it is indeed an egg...
Their mouths and throats are clean and pink, droppings are sometimes rather large and dark green with some white, and usually well formed. One that was kind of meally brown that I found by accident after examining the white bird--I felt a tickle on my nose and having not washed my hands yet, rubbed at it with my arm-UGH! pijjie poo in the nostril is not a nice thing!   
They are getting vitamins, pickstone and crushed eggshells, the tetracycline, food and water of course, and have a heating pad under part of their cage, and I just put a nest box in with them because they both seem to want to nest in the food dishes. They are using it-rather one is-she/he kicked the other one out.
I'm thinking I couldn't possibly have been brought two birds found on someone's doorstep, turn out to be fantails, that have the same illness---and then both have eggs and end up becoming eggbound.......the odds must be astronomical....
I can't get them to the vet for probably two days still-that is if they make it. I really hope they do. They are very sweet pijjies. 
What should I do? Should I try giving the hunched up one olive oil down the throat? If so how much, and is extra virg. OK? I haven't been able to find mineral oil here. I also have sunflower or corn oil. Would this hurt them or cause further problems if she is not egg bound?
Thanks for any help/suggestions you may have.
Worried, Melissa


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I've noticed that some of the hens will have that arched back "getting ready to lay an egg" look a day or so before they lay. Offering some additional heat seems to help, as does offering high oil seed (safflower, hemp).


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Melissa, 

Thank goodness you were brought these desparate pigeons!!! They sounded to be in horrible shape when you got them. 

I'm not really sure if egg binding is a problem here or not, but by your description, it certainly sounds possible. You are correct that you can give the birds olive oil down the throat and this usually helps a lot. Just a drop or two for each bird is enough. You can use olive, virgin olive oil, corn, sunflower. Some people use cod liver oil as well, from a gel cap. Just break open a gel cap and squeeze a couple of drops down the throat. 

If the birds have been acting eggbound for more than 2 days, it's unlikely that they actually are because it's a serious condition and if the egg(s) aren't expelled, it will usually kill them very quickly.

Also, tetracycline (I believe) binds with calcium and makes it ineffective. So, once the antibiotic treatment is finished, you may want to increase the calcium for the birds. Either by offering crushed, boiled and sterile eggshells or even one regular Tums antacid dissolved into their drinking water.

Good luck and hoping for the best for you & the fantails,


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi again Melissa, 

Sorry I wasn't clear in my last post about the tetracycline. You should remove all sources of calcium in grits, pickstones etc while giving tetracycline because it makes the meds useless. Calcium and it's sources should be given after the treatments are finished.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

....yahhhhh, as i recall to have heard, warm Baths for them may aide in Egg-Bound occasions...


A Heating Pad for their night-rest also...



However, can you say what so far, their Poops look like?


Are they eating allright?


...have you checked their throats for signs of Canker?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

*Added picture in the hope that Melissa can see it*

Melissa,

Go here and read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

That sounds very much like what Winter had. It's a lot easier surgery than you might think. There are two kinds of egg binding: the one where the egg won't pass out of the cloaca which means that they can neither poop nor urinate and, therefore, die of peritonitis and kidney failure; and the other one (rare) where the egg stalls out in the oviduct before it passes into the cloaca.

If it's what Winter had, you need to build the birds up (food, water and supportive medications for the probable coccidiosis, infections, etc) until they're capable of making it through the surgery.

If your vet needs info that describes Forane (Isoflurane) flow rates, equipment and procedures because he's never done anything like that, I can supply it by email.

Your vet can look up the vent with an otoscope (like a doctor looks in your ears with) to see if there's any evidence of a infection or debris but he'll need to look up into the urodeum to see the vaginal entrance if the oviduct is the problem. For that matter, he can see everything that way although it's a bit confusing so I'm going to post an illustration of the cloacal structure on my webshots page and post the link here:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/424279324/424330288HVnonE

There is a type of otoscope that utilizes a squeeze-bulb like a sphygmomanometer (old blood pressure checker) that can "inflate" what you're looking into and that can be helpful here. There are such things as tumors and the like that they can get and some would show up in there.

By the way, in real egg-binding, the oil is usually tubed up into the vent, sort of like with tube-feeding down the throat. The big trick is to get (imagine the bird laying on its back) down below the fold that separates the coprodeum from the urodeum. You really want to get into the urodeum. And if there were an egg stuck at the vaginal canal, it would really be nice to work the tube into that. But, it's usually enough just to get the oil into the urodeum and then gently massage the area to try to work the oil in deeper to get to the egg.

Can you post pictures of these birds?

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks everyone -Terri, Brad, Phil, Pidgey! 
I checked the white bird again, the mass felt a little lower and I can easily isolate it and gently move it side to side. It is still above the pelvic bones. I gave xv olive oil as you suggested. About 0.4ml. Some have said a couple of drops, and others a dropperful. So I decided to give somewhere in the middle  . I removed the pickstone/eggshells. I should have thought of that before-Duh...
Just waiting now to see if anything comes out. How long before I may see results if it is an egg? Continuing the heating pad. She is trying to worm her way into the nest box, but the other bird won't let her in. I really want to seperate them, but I don't have any extra cage large enough for a pigeon at the moment. The ones I could use have birds in them with eggs now  . (Hopefully they'll hatch this time!) 
I could maybe put her in a laundry basket and collapse a small budgie cage to use for a top. It's really small though-one of those round ones.
I read your thread Pidgey-it is great info! It does have a lot of similarities to your Winter's case. I'm glad it was made a sticky! I can't open the other one about the anatomy though. They have a lot of censoring here, and sometimes they block things they think might be *exual! I have several times been reading a thread here that mentions feeling the b*reast muscle of the bird and suddenly the page will disappear and a message comes up that the page I was viewing has been blocked, access is not allowed! AArrgghh! I can send a request to them to unblock it, but it takes a while for them to process... 
Anyway back to the birds. Their throats/mouths are pink and there are no signs of canker that I can see. Poops are good, pretty large sometimes, this I have attributed to the fact that I am hand feeding them in addition to what they eat themselves. I have cut back to only twice a day now. Trying to build them up fast. I don't have a gram scale (wish I could find one here!) but I can feel that they are gaining rapidly-they feel heavier-when they first came they where like air, now they have some weight to them, and I could completely encircle their bodies in one hand, now the brown one I have to use two hands, the white one has been slower to gain, but she is finally starting to gain, I can feel some muscle building up where there was none-only bone! 
I'm holding off on the warm bath for the moment. They really could use a bath besides all these other problems-but with their respiratory status I am leary of causing a chill. But it may be life or death if this an egg so if I don't see results from the olive oil I will probably try some moist heat with a heating pad wrapped in plastic or better yet I have an ice pack that I can fill with warm water and a damp cloth to the area.
The brown bird when I checked I can't feel the lumpish thing in the abdomen anymore. Perhaps it was a bit of swollen intestine?? 
They are still exhibiting the open mouth breathing, though not quite as bad. I hope they are getting better overall, and I am not just fooling myself into thinking they are improving.... I get so involved in these birds....
I'll stop this novel for now, and I'll keep you updated with any changes. 
I have to go shopping in a while so they will be alone for a couple of hours. Maybe that's a good thing, they won't have two giant eyeballs staring at them every few minutes!
Thanks for staying with me on this!
Always, Melissa


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

I forgot to say unfortunately I can't post any pics. Still haven't figured out how to get the pictures from my husbands phone into the computer....
Maybe I'll try to work on that now. I will stop obsessing with the birds  !
M.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Mellissasue,

So, you have got yourself another project huh? You really are doing a terrific job by these birds.

You have gotten some great advice and I'm here just to follow up on a few things.

If she is eggbound, the egg should come today or tomorrow. Keep her isolated so she is not stressed by other birds, and on the warm heating pad. She needs to be relaxed and feel comfortable so she will release the egg.

1/2 of a dropperful is fine, no more. You can give her one more dose tomorrow if she doesn't lay an egg, or act better. You should definitely take the bird to your avian vet if there is not egg, as this can be dangerous as Pidgey already spoke about.

I pretty much keep an eye on my hens now, they are pretty regular and if there is no egg when it is expected, then they are either eggbound, or something more is going on, maybe a back up, stuck egg, we don't know so it is mandatory to take a trip to the vet. I keep a record on paper, so I remember it. Sometimes they don't even have that "huntch back" look, but you know per the schedule she should have laid an egg. Then it is time to take action.

LOL I think my birds think I'm overbearing too! They always look like they are saying "Oh, here she comes again.."


Treesa


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Pidgey,
How is Winter doing now? Hope she is happy and well.
Daryl


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello Malissasue,
If you are giving the birds plain water, may I suggest giving them a bit of 'rehydrating solution'.
*To a cup of water add a pinch of each, salt & sugar*. This is to be given at room temperature.
When we are presented with an ill or injured bird, they often times need a boost & the plain water just isn't enough.

If this has already been suggested & I missed it, please excuse the duplication. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...too, in lieu of warm Baths, a heating pad insulated with being put into a secure plastic bag, may have a damp towell put on it for the Bird to rest on, which will humidify their underside.

Calcium, and the complimentary nutrients which aid in it's assimilation ( fats usually, which Olive Oil supplies in addition to that of wholesme Seeds) of course also plays important roles in the quality of muscle elasticity, and hence could be of interest in scenarios of the possibly Egg-Bound.


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Daryl,

Winter's doing just fine although her ole' man gets on her case because she's not making any eggs. I help her out by putting a plaster egg underneath where she's standing and she winks at me because she knows that'll shut him up for a few weeks. I haven't detected any new swellings since that last surgery so at least that worked, I guess.

Melissa,

I posted that illustration on this actual thread just in case they don't censor Pigeons.com. Also, your vet can use an otoscope to do an exploratory through the abdominal wall to look at things so that it wouldn't require a huge incision. That's just a suggestion. Personally, I think Winter's vet, given the choice, would just open the bird up and look because they seem to take it remarkably well.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

I had to get off the computer last night (3-4hours ago) before I could post again. -baby crying-
They are both still hanging in there. The white bird my son has dubbed "Fanny" has not passed an egg yet. She is still acting the same. However now when I palpate I can feel the other end of the 'egg'. I am convinced almost completely now that it is indeed an egg. I can get my finger behind it and the shape is just as it should be for an egg. 
I'm wondering-maybe she is just in the process of making the egg and is not "bound"??  If she where to be just normally getting ready to lay an egg, would I be able to feel it in there anyway? And if so how long before it should be laid?  She is not pushing or looking like she is trying to expel anything. Still eating and pooping fine-considering the resp. infection that is. If she had mated before she got lost from her owner it probably would have been about 8-10 days ago at least. I haven't seen any activity of that kind from the two of them, and I think they are too sick respiratory wise anyway to manage it. They haven't acted like a pair-rather like two who tolerate each other-occasionally pecking at one another. Nothing serious, but not loving. They are in a rather small space though. My son said he saw Fanny cleaning "Skippies" head feathers...?...
She still sits hunched up, but is this possibly due to the resp. infection? Do fantails sit like that when they are simply stressed or sleeping? I noticed that when I lift the cover at night they are both sitting with the drooping tail/hunched back. Maybe I am making something more out of this than need be? If she is egg bound would she be trying to push? 
Should I try to infuse some oil into the cloaca-from your diagram Pidgey-I should aim up rather than down? How much, and can I use olive oil or sunflower or carn oil? I haven't been able to get any mineral oil here that doesn't have perfume added ie Johnsons baby oil.
Oh....baby again! More later!
Thanks, Melissa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, let's say that it's not like Winter and that this is an egg. In that case, you have to understand that it's not like a human pregnancy or labor. That is to say that it's only passing the egg from the urodeum chamber out of the vent that resembles the strain of delivery as it presents in a human. If there is an egg further up in the uterus, the bird's not as concerned about it.

I haven't read anything significant about that second type of egg-binding. I only researched it a little back in February-ish when I thought that was Winter's problem. I could feel that same egg-like thing that I could move all the way back to the vent area but couldn't get her to pass.

However, when I tried, I used mineral oil because that's what I'd read. Not knowing the anatomy at the time, I probably gave the poor bird an oil enema instead. At least she wasn't constipated.

I do remember reading that a "drooping tail/hunched back" was the symptom for abdominal pain and later today I'll try to include a post about "egg related peritonitis" which is what those symptoms sound like, including the respiratory problem.

Okay, from pages 771 to 772 of AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION it says that it's the most common cause of death when you're talking reproductive disorders. There are many different ways that it can happen and they aren't sure whether the oviduct ruptures first or if the peritonitis happens first. It could even be that the yolk of the forming egg is infected before the egg is even complete. You just get anything from a mildly sick bird to a pretty quick death. Signs are general ill health plus masses that you can feel in the abdomen, breathing distress, reduced egg production. Such a bird usually needs antibiotics in the worst way and if garbage has spilled into the abdominal cavity then surgery's a must but you have to make sure that the bird's been stabilized or even built back up before trying that.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Wow Pidgey! Great info! Thanks so much for all your hard work and research!
Last night I tried moist heat for a while. But to no avail. It seemed to stress her out too much-causing her to struggle and become very dyspneic, so I haven't tried that again yet today. Last night the mass felt smooth and round/egglike on all the presenting areas. It must turn though, because today I can feel that flattened irregular side again that I felt in the beginning.
It's strange, sometimes they seem like they are getting better-active preening, even happy looking, then at other times they-especially Fanny looks as if she may not last long.
My husband said he will take us to the bird market with the vet tomorrow! I am very anxious to get them to see the vet! I really hope he is knowledgeable about pigeons, and this scenario. I am going to try to print out the info you have sent and take it with me if I can...Our printer is pretty tempermental, and often doesn't print on the paper.
If you have any more suggestions or info, I will check in the morning before I go. I hope she makes it till then!
Thanks so much, Melissa


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Some things I keep meaning to say:
I repeated the olive oil.
I am also giving black seed, a little mixed in their food and a pinch by beak twice a day.
When I clean the cage I let them sit on top of it and they really seem to enjoy it! They exercise their wings, and hover straight up into the air repeatedly about 2 1/2-3 feet! The brown "Skippy" does this more than "Fanny"-(the white one with the mass) but she does it too. It gives me reason to hope!

Do you think I should try to instill some oil into the vent tonight, before we go to the vet in the am, and if so how much, and can I use olive, corn, or sunflower oil? Can't find plain mineral oil here. They must have it, but I have asked at two different pharmacies with no luck. They do have Johnson's baby oil, but that has some perfume in it. Maybe too irritating?
Thanks loads, Melissa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Melissa,

Send me your email address and I'll send you some of the pages out of the book that deal with the surgery, anaesthesia, etc., to take to your vet. You may have to use a disc, flash drive, writeable CD or whatever if your printer won't cooperate. That's assuming that your vet has a computer and wants to take the time to review it, of course. 

It's hard to say what the respiratory component is but the hovering exercise seems hopeful. They're sure trying to live and they've put on weight. I don't think it matters what kind of oil you use--they're all slick.

By the way, a brief explanation of that drawing as it functions: urine comes into the urodeum and actually flows down and backflushes INTO the intestines where the water is sucked out. That creates the whitish urates or "whitecap" that you see on typical poop. Any actual urine-based liquid that comes out with a poop is basically unfinished. They can do that if they're nervous, startled or just deciding to take off and want to dump the waste. It's when E. Coli or some other bacteria "ascend" through the urine and up into the oviduct or kidneys that things really take a turn for the worse. That's what really caused Winter's problem.

If it comes to removal of the oviduct and that vet hasn't done anything like that before on a bird, he should really pay close attention to that write-up on Winter. He should definitely review avian anatomy so that he'll recognize the oviduct in order to remove it instead of the intestines. Now, that seems like a real <Duh!> thing to say but you'd be surprised how difficult it can be if the abdominal cavity is full of that gravel and yolk material. That stuff is just plain nasty and can really fill the bird up. My surgeon just wiped it out with his fingers like sweeping out butterscotch pudding.

Anyhow, when he finally isolated the oviduct, he clamped it with a surgical clamp very similar to a hemostat (it was a little longer and straight) and then used scissors to trim the oviduct about 1/4" away from the clamp (which was between the cloaca and the trim). Then, he ligated or tied it off with sutures so that it wouldn't hemorrhage into the abdominal cavity. He did the other end the same way only he clamped above the magnum. Make sure to look that up. DON'T attempt to take the ovaries or the bird will bleed to death.

Now, it's a bit tough for me to imagine what veterinary care would be like there so they may not have the right anesthetics. If that were the case, then if someone's really got a good hold on the bird it can be done without but POOR BIRD! What my vet did was give Winter only enough Isoflurane to see occasional reactions to the pain. He said you didn't want to put them "all the way under." So Winter did a little bit of kicking and thrashing. Towards the end, there were three of us holding her down. You... uhh... have to be strong!

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*So sorry I haven't gooten back to you sooner!*

 My husbands sisters came for a visit and brought all of their little kids. Two of his sisters and 12 little kids running around plus my three!!! Oy! Needless to say it was a disaster to say the least. Fun, but a cyclone attacked our house from the inside. Really bad thing they broke the plug to the phone so we didn't have internet access until now, my husband just got a new plug and installed it...
OK. Here's what has happened. No computer so I couldn't get the info to take with me to the vet  . But we went regardless. I don't know about this vet. He took a very quick look at the birds, told me their breathing was OK now (it's definitely Not) and that they have salmonella! He says he believes this because there is a yellow stain on the white birds wing. ( I took a number of samples of poop from their cage because I know when they get nervous they tend to have liquid droppings-when I hand feed or medicate them this always happens and then it goes back to normal-dark greenish brown, formed with a little dab of white just like Brads after picture in his all about poops post-thanks Brad!) This stain is old, as I haven't allowed them to take a bath at all due to the resp. problem, I didn't want to risk a chill and I don't own a blow drier. He said the mass - that is now consistently feeling irregularly shaped- is the birds gizzard, and they are probably young birds and he said it is not unusual for the gizzard to become enlarged and firm in young birds!?!  ! 
He gave me some tablets (didn't tell me or show me the active ingredient) He said it contains medicine for salmonella and an antibiotic. 

The back of the pack says ORNI TAB Pontex, Holland B.V.

I am to give one tab to each bird daily for 4 days. If not better in seven days I should return for a re-check. They could easily be dead by then! I am very frustrated with his "diagnosis" and treatment.
I don't have confidence in what he said, but I don't have any other choice but to follow thru with his treatment plan and pray that he is right. Although I feel in my heart that this couldn't possibly be right. 
Am I really off base? Do you think he is right? Salmonella causes GI problems, not respiratory. Right?!? Could it possibly cause an enlargement of some part of the intestinal tract presenting with this abdominal mass? Then there is the open beak breathing, and hunched back.
I felt he was really patronizing me. I 'argued' politely with him at length, but he was sure that his diagnosis is correct. 
It does seem that this respiratory problem should be cleared up after two consecutive antibiotic treatments. Do you think the resp. problem could be those air sac mites or something else entirely?
Is there something that causes a chronic resp. distress that antibiotics won't treat?
Any suggestions of meds I might try to give on my own. I can get most any human med, and maybe avian as well as long as it is not a narcotic. If so what would be the dose/lenght of treatment etc.
What about the corticosteroids?
The vet doesn't know what Ivermecton is. Does anyone know the active ingredients name?
Thanks for your help, 
Melissa
P.S.I will send you my email pidgey. Also do you have a diagram of where the gizzard is located? I thought it was up higher in the thoracic region, not in the lower abdomen as the vet said.
You know-he didn't even listen to them with a stethascope!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Melissasue1968,

Thank you for doing your best to help these birds.

I just checked on the package the vet gave you, Orni-Tabs by Pantex of Holland, is for ornithosis, caused by bacteria that are susceptible to Doxycycline and Spiramycine. 

If this is indeed those tablets it has 5mg Doxycycline and 10mg Spiramycine. Dosage: 2 tablets per pigeon first day, 1 tablet-second day. 

Treesa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I think we can rule out that vet doing surgery if he thinks the gizzard can be found in the back end of the bird.

Patronizing you? Tough call. The indigenous life forms do have an Atty. Tood. regarding the X-chromosome. You may have noticed.

Anyhow, the respiratory component is very difficult to say for sure. That's not a bad medication for respiratory problems, I think, but I'm going to have to go looking to be sure. If it was ornithosis (actually "chlamydiosis") then you should see conjunctivitis and some kind of mucal discharge out of the nose.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

That's what I thought! Sheesh! When he told me that it was the gizzard, I said but the gizzard is up here-indicating the neck/chest region. He smiled patronizingly and told me no-that's the crop! Man! 

Thanks for checking the med Treesa. They allready had one tablet each yesterday and one tablet each today. What do you think I should do. Give them another tablet today to be sure the blood level is high enough? How many days does it say to continue?
Thanks, Melissa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, the gizzard would be about where your breastbone is. That is, it is in the thoracic cavity. This illustration shows, although it doesn't label, the basic layout. The distance from the cloaca (at the far bottom, no pun intended) and the crop (the wide spot in the esophageal road) is about true. The rib cage, which ends in a point on the belly side would just about reach the beginning of the cloaca.



Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

At least it is an antibiotic-doxycycline. I am not familiar with the other ingredient- Spiramycine-is that another antibiotic? 
I'm curious, are either of these two drugs good against salmonella? Or respiratory infections?
Doxycycline I seem to remember being very effective but I don't remember against what specifically.
Thanks again,
Melissa


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Melissa, 

Boy, you sure are having a hard time with the pigeon and your vet I can understand your frustration here. Many vets (even the avian ones) here, aren't all that great so I can just imagine what you're dealing with there. 

Strange how he would say the birds have salmonella and then prescribe an antibiotic for ornithosis. In his defense though, this would be more in tune to the respiratory symptoms that the birds are exhibiting, the hunched over posture and laboured breathing. 


Here is some info on ornithosis taken from a website on various pigeon diseases:

*Ornithosis*

The disease is caused by Chlamydomonas, a group of organisms with characteristics of both viruses and bacteria. The disease is not fatal to fully grown pigeons. Ornithosis is due to a micro-organism called Clamydia. It is susceptible to antibiotics like bacteria but lives within and destroys body cells like a virus. Clinical signs vary from poor performance to an acute disease causing a marked conjunctivitis, decreased appetite, respiratory disease, diarrhoea and death. 
Isolated patients will quickly respond if placed in a warm, draft free cage and will in a few days or weeks be their old selves again. O-c (“ ornithosis-complex”) under normal circumstances does not present a great danger. But should the birds suffer from stress (molting, bad food, cold and damp in the lofts, drafts, etc) they become more susceptible to a heavy o-c infection. If an additional disease should infect a bird, then the danger is also greater. A bird suffering from o-c is less inclined to fly, a symptom that also occurs in many diseases. After a time, the bird will develop respiratory problems, will quickly tire, and sit with open beak gasping for breath, hunched up in appearance, raised feathers on rump, damp matted patches upon wing butts (eye wiping or scratching) constant sneezing. Thereafter, the normally white or light rose coloured eyelid membranes will well and become gray or brown. The eyes water profusely, and an inflamed, wet patch soon forms under the eyes. In serious cases the eyelids will stick together, and secondary bacterial infections can cause blindness. The nostrils become gray and are also wet from a running nose. The bird will sneeze and scratch at its face. Should the mucous membranes of the nose, throat, and trachea become infected, the bird will sit with open beak, gasping for breath. As the trachea fills with mucous, you may hear a rattling sound as the bird gasps. The intestines may become infected, resulting in diarrhoea. 
O-c is very infectious. It can be transmitted via infected drinking water and also through the air. The cote must be well-ventilated, clean and light, and disinfected at least once a week. Damp, stagnant air will spread the disease more quickly. Disinfect loft and all utensils, blow torch disinfect again and limewash. It is extremely difficult to eradicate and may reoccur. Completely isolate all others into a fresh air aviary quarantine. It is essentially a disease due to filth or lack of observation. 

Treatment

You should do two things:
1. Allow the bird to be injected by a vet:0. 5 ml oxytetracycline in the breast muscle; repeat after 24 hours and 
2. Administer chlortetracycline powder in the drinking water or Hostacycline powder 4 gms in 1 lt water for 5 to 7 days or more. Multivitamins must be given for 30-60 days.
Diagnosis of this disease in the live bird is difficult and must rely heavily on the clinical symptoms present. Blood tests will identify birds that have been exposed to the organism but are not a good indication of the present disease status. Where dead birds are available, samples from the liver or spleen can give a positive diagnosis in the laboratory. The disease needs to be distinguished from Mycoplasma infection, Haemophylus infection and “One Eyed Cold”.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I notice from you bio that you're a certified veterinary technician. Have you assisted in any surgeries for animals?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Brad,

Nowadays, the drug of choice for chlamydiosis is doxycycline and would you believe that not all doxycyclines are created equal? There was a German injectible compound that was considered the best but most of the antibiotics of the tetracycline family will cause muscle necrosis at the injection site. In the book, there's a picture and it's like a little acid-burned hole in the muscle. Therefore, they've gotten away from doing it that way because they've also discovered that it takes a loooooooooonnnggg therapy to finally clear the bird of the chlamydia. So they usually go with an oral formulation now.

Spiramycin is not commercially available in the US. I haven't found much about it that says what family of antibiotics it's in although there is some mention of it being also used as an antiprotozoal so it might hit canker, too, but it's hard to say until I find some better info. However, it is effective against chlamydiosis as well.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

That sounds like a possibility too Brad! They haven't had any nasal discharge or conjuctivitis, but maybe the disease process wasn't that advanced when the guy brought them to me? But they have had severe breathing problems all along. Maybe the two other antibiotics halted some of the disease process, but where not enough to commpletely eradicate it? Or maybe they need to be on it for several weeks as you say they can recover over several weeks.
They have started making a strange noise, I am not sure if it is a cough or a sneeze-it has to be one of the two. It's sort of a honking, grunting, oinking sound, and they open their beak wide when they do it and sort of make a gagging motion. ???? I do often hear and feel a rattling grunt when I have to take them out and hold them.
The first antibiotic was baytril, then oxytetracycline with vitamins.
It is possible that he knows what is wrong with the birds and just lacks the English vocabulary  . Hmmmm. He does speak three different languages...and English is most likely his third.
So when and if these birds recover is it safe to put them with the rest of our little flock? Also, regarding the cage they are in-should I just throw it away since it says it is very hard to erradicate? It's made of mostly plywood and hardware cloth. Not too expensive.
Thanks so much Brad!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it could be gapeworms, too. You wouldn't happen to have one of those cheap otoscopes for use on children, would you?

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

melissasue1968 said:


> They allready had one tablet each yesterday and one tablet each today. What do you think I should do. Give them another tablet today to be sure the blood level is high enough? How many days does it say to continue?
> Thanks, Melissa


It said 2 tablets the first day, 1 the second day. That was the entire dosage instructions.

They were supposed to have only one pill the first day per the doctor? Maybe the doctor thought the 10mg of the Spiramycine and 5 mg of Doxycycline was enough for salmonellas? Anyone, care to second guess the doctor's reasoning?


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Yeah I was in surgery a lot. I prefer lab work, and hands on with the animals, but it seemed I was always needed there. I never worked at an avian vet though, so my surgical experience was limited to mostly cats and dogs, and a few large animals-cows and horses.

The info Brad posted makes sense too. That's the problem without a proper diagnosis it's so hard to guess if they are on the proper treatment or not. 

So that med is not for salmonella at all! Hmmph! 
I am so grateful to all of you for your help! I would be at a total loss without you! You are all SUPER!

The chlamydia/ornithosis makes sense but that still leaves the mass in the abdomen. Like Winter's problem as well!?!

I hope this med will help them whatever is wrong with them.

Should I give another tab to them today? Treesa said the usual treatment is a loading dose the first day of two tabs, then one tab the next day. How many days should I continue? The vet said 1 tab daily for 4 days only. Sounds like maybe it needs to be long term treatment.


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

I was just re- reading the posts, somehow I missed some.
What are the symptoms of gapeworms, other than the obvious "gaping". I would say that word desribes the motion they make when they make that cough/sneeze sound. The poops are good. Formed, greenish brown w/ a dab of white.

Thanks, Melissa

P.S. Pidgey thanks for sending those pages to my email! It may sound strange but I will enjoy reading those, even if the vet doesn't!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Melissa, 

Here is some information on gapeworm:

*Gapes*

The symptoms of Gapes are gasping for breath, head shaking and coughing without any sign of apparent illness. The cause is – the small red Gape worm (Syngamus Trachaelis), which develops inside another host i.e. earthworm, maggot, snail etc., that thrives around soiled ground near poultry, ducks and geese. The parasitic worm once ingested feeds within the lung upon blood for ten days. It then makes its way after rapid growth to the windpipe. The adult male attaches itself to the female forming a letter “Y”, causing the bird to gasp or “Gape” when it is eventually coughed up onto the ground or water. There may be a homeopathic cure: Drosera and Dulcamara given on alternate days.

Here is the site where this information comes from:

http://www.awbi.org/pamp11.htm


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we're certainly not to the point of "goodbyes" yet.

Yes, you've certainly got a complicated mess there. Gapeworms are "Y" shaped worms that actually inhabit the trachea and cause an obstruction in the breathing path. If you can wait, I can post a picture.

Having trouble finding the picture that I'm thinking of but it mentiones in AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION that gapeworms live in the upper airways of birds and will cause hard breathing and sound changes in their voices. They can sometimes be seen by shining a light pressed up against the neck where dark patches will show up through the windpipe. Earthworms sometimes carry them and infection occurs when birds eat the worms. It's usually seen in ground-dwelling birds in zoos and aviaries. 

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

OK. I'll wait. Thanks!
That's true, they are little troopers! I just get discouraged sometimes they look like they gasping their last, and then other times they don't look too bad!
Melissa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I can't find the one that I'm looking for but here's a link to the only one I have found so far on the internet:

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/~cus1fb/fowl/gapeworm.html

The picture that I'm looking for may be in a book at the house in which case I'd have to take a picture of it and then post that.

Pigeons don't normally get gapeworms but they occasionally do. Here's a link that gives a bit about most if not all the worms that pigeons can get:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/Articles/WormsPg1-3.pdf

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Wow! Great info site Brad! I saved it offline so I can go study it later!
They don't do any head shaking. The brown one does this strange wobbly neck thing but I've only seen it when it is out of the cage. It's head and the rest of body stay still, only it's neck wiggles and jiggles like a it where made of jello. Jiggles like a belly dancer. Not assoc. with any roo-cooing. Strange looking. Anything to be concerned about??
Eee-eww! Gross worms. I hope not. I have never seen any earthworms or snails here as it is so dry, but I'm sure they must be here. See maggots from time to time on rotten food or dead animals though.
I can't get the modena site to open right now. It's not blocked, just not coming up at the moment. I'll try again later.

Oh, btw, if they cough them up is the infestation over?
I don't have an otoscope. Could I see them without one? I check their throats occasionally. All is nice and clear and pink as far down as I can see. I've never thought to try to look past the openings.
Thankyou guys so much for all your time and effort you are putting in on my "case".
I can't say it enough-you all are AWESOME!!!
Gratefully yours, Melissa


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Melissa, 

You are most welcome for any assistance I've given but it's not been much. Like you have said, it's very hard to diagnos a particular problem and symptoms can all bleed together at times. Without confirmation from a qualified person, we are just stabbing in the dark trying to match symptoms and narrow things down.

Hopefully your vet does know what he's talking about. Were there ever any fecal tests done? Are they equipped to do some blood work at all? It is also possible that the pigeons are suffering from more than one thing at this time. 

With Gape worms, once the male and female have mated and then coughed up, that is the end of their breeding cycle. The eggs are expelled by mouth or in the feces. The pigeon would have to eat something again to become reinfected by these worms.

As for the one pigeon shaking it's head, all wobbling but the body staying motionless...I have no idea, that seems very strange  We're all hoping for the best outcome for your fantails, and just trying to offer any tidbits that we can to help you. 

I know when my own birds were sick, it was very frustrating because I went through many vets and none could give me definite answers either. Fecal tests came back fine, blood work up checked out normally. But before all of this they were treated randomly with various antibiotics such as baytril, doxycycline, and tetracycline. In the end, all that was confirmed was worms and possibly coccidiosis. This was a number of years ago now and my situation was very different from yours. I'm also not suggesting that worms are your problem either, although it is possible they have intestinal parasites too. 

It would seem that your problem is respiratory in some form but this problem can be from a number of reasons as well, I feel you should continue with the ornithosis treatment as you've been instructed and complete that and then see how the pigeons are. If there is no improvement after the treatment, then we're back to square one but at least we can rule out some things.

Keep us posted,


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I agree with Brad, especially about the multiple causes. One of the difficult things with all animals (including us) is that they can get "pansystemic" disease. When an animal gets "immunocompromised" every doggone bug and its brother are just waiting to come down on it like a ton of bricks. 

Yeah, it's likely that the mass in the one is a formation like Winter had and it's possible to bring the bird back from the brink of disaster with antibiotics but if that's in fact what it is, the bird will not be able to keep from getting sick when you stop the antibiotics.

Winter had six or seven of those things in her (they stacked up quickly) and it was amazing (although not rare) that she survived until we finally got them out. She wouldn't have if it weren't for the Baytril. But like the vet said, "you cannot control this with antibiotics forever."

Truth be told, with the grief that I've been going through with Pierpont (different thread) and the minor surgical work I've had to do already, if I were stuck with no other alternative (no vet worth a crap), I'd do that surgery myself to remove those rocks. That's the simpler surgery. It would be tougher if you had to do the hysterectomy on your own without an anaesthesia. You can certainly immobilize the bird on a board with tape but that'd be pretty painful for the bird. Still, the alternative is death so it's a tough call. You really just need to plaster the vet with that info and determine if he's got the anaesthesia equipment. Maybe if you told him that a MALE that you know whose bird had the EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS already did EXACTLY what's in those pages, he wouldn't be threatened by the gender problem. 

But we still need to teach him where a bird's gizzard is. It would be horrible if he got in there and removed the bird's intestines instead of the oviduct. Now, you might say, "oh, there's no way he could be that... !" Let me tell you, on that surgery, there was so much of that egg yolk goo in there that it wasn't as easy as you would think. Trust me.

How long are you over there for? The other thing here is that you can't bring these animals back with you (or even cross the border, right?) so you'll have to find homes for them all when you leave. You will eventually have to make the hard choice one way or another on the one with the mass if it doesn't go away or gets worse. By the way, it might not get worse if you keep her away from males but you can't take that for granted. 

Hopefully, the respiratory problem for both of them will eventually respond to medication and we can get past that aspect at least. I wonder if air-sac mites could be a problem here? I've never known about those things but I'll bet others have dealt with them sometime. Brad?

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pidgey, 

I myself have never dealt with air sac mites that I know of. I do know they can cause respiratory distress however. I've always used ivermectin on a regular basis and it kills nearly all the common internal and external parasites.

Melissa said her vet doesn't even know what this drug is in one of her posts. Which is another reason this is a difficult situation...she doesn't have access to the basic meds and treatments for simple things even


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*We're hanging in there.*

So far they are still holding on. Although several times today I thought I was losing one or the other of them. Sometimes they just lay down and their whole body moves greatly with avery agonal like breath. Then ten minutes later they are up and eating/drinking/preening/or exercising their wings! 

Do you know any other name for Ivermectin? It's possible he would recognize it under a different name...

I don't know how long we will be here. It was supposed to be 2-3 years, it looks like it could easily be 2-3 more at this point....

That's good to know the gapeworms are fairly self limiting. If they should cough something up-I clean the cage at least once, sometimes twice a day...
btw-when he/she does this neck wobbling thing, the head stays stationary as well as the body. When I first saw it I thought, oh no, it's some horrible neurological illness....then as I watched it I noticed how the head stay still, and thought well, maybe it's just a strange habit this bird has. It only does it when it is out of the cage. Maybe it is the birds "happy dance"?

When they recover (notice my optimism here?) from the resp. problem, I guess we'll be able to see if she is still in pain from the abdominal mass. If she is, I don't think there is much else I can do for her. At this point I can't imagine inflicting that kind of pain. I don't think I have the nerve. But then again I have surprised myself. But I'm not gonna think about that too much now...

I'm sorry Pidgey, I didn't know you where having problems with Pierpont. I hope everything is OK. What an angel you are to put so much into helping me when you have a crisis on your hands at home...I'm going to go look for your thread.

Best wishes, Melissa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I hate to say it but I can't imagine an actual sickness per se (pneumonia, psittacosis, etc.) coming and going like that. That sounds more like a varying obstruction.

As to how would you look down their throats, you have to look down the larynx to the syrinx. That's a pretty small hole lemon shaped hole just behind the tongue. Also, it would only work with an otoscope if you pulled the neck very straight. However, I think there's a way of painting the neck with rubbing alcohol and using a high intensity light from behind, rather like "candling" an egg. You should be able to see any shadows in the trachea. Let me find that and post it later for sure as well as a picture of those worms (I found it in another book).

You wouldn't be able to see Pierpont's pictures because I posted them on webshots.com. Without the pictures, it's difficult to imagine just how badly hurt that pigeon was (he's a rescued feral). He's required surgery, debridement and all kinds of fun stuff including lots of stitches, especially seeing as how he's a champion stitch puller. I finally made him a bib to keep them covered and that's working. But I've gotten REAL good at stitching because of him.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Good news I hope! They are breathing with their beaks closed today! If the vet doesn't know the right terms and anatomy at least his treatment seems to be helping! They are still doing a bit of a tail bob when they breathe, and when I cleaned the cage (twice today-little pooers!) They did their hovering exercises and flew around the room a bit. This winded them and they started breathing with open beaks again, but they recovered in a couple of minutes!

Today was the last day (only 4 day tx) the vet told me to give them the dox. combo. I have enough to treat tomorrow also. Do you think I should give it to them? I am thinking I probably will.

I finally got onto the modena site and read about the various possibilities-salmonella, ornithosis, worms, and much more. I wanted to read the articles but they won't open for me for some reason. Do I have to be a member to access these? 
Anyway in the info, it says in one place doxycycline should be continued for at least 5 days. Somewhere else it says 10 days, and in the case of ornithosis/chlamydia treatment must be continued for 45 days. Many years ago I had a yellow nape amazon parrot who after I had her for ten years was diagnosed with psittacosis-the same as ornithosis/chlamydia. I treated her for the 45 days with doxycycline and she made a full recovery. Do you think I should continue the treatment further with these birds? 10 days, 45 days?
I would hate to stop and have them relapse and then have a resistance to the doxy.
Another question. These possible infections...the modena site says many of them can be chronic carriers and infect other birds, though they may recover themselves. I was hoping to add these birds to our little flock outside when they are fully recovered. But I don't want to risk infecting them with this disease...If I can't add them to our other birds, and they are a danger to other birds, I have a dilema as for what to do with them. I'm keeping them inside while sick. But there is not enough room inside for them permanently. They are in a small cage which is OK for now, but would be cruel for a lifetime. Well, I'll wait and see what you think about mixing them with our other birds when they recover.
BTW- I am itching to let them take a bath. They are very dirty from being 'lost' outside and their ordeal. Do you think it's OK now? If I let them bathe and then set them outside in their cage to dry tomorrow afternoon? Quite warm here to say the least!
Thanks, Melissa (Sorry for another novel!)


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Good news I hope! They are breathing with their beaks closed today!*
Thanks for the update Melissa.
Yes, indeed, that is definitely good news.  

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Melissa,

since we don't have a diagnosis made by a lab, so we don't know for sure what is wrong with them, I would continue with the doxycycline for 10 days, or at least until after they are well for three days in a row.
Like you said, we don't want a relapse and resistance to the antibiotic.
Doxy is a pretty safe antibiotic and given the correct dosage shouldn't harm them.
I still would not let them bathe yet, not today, see how they do in another 24 hours, if still well, give them a warm bath.

As for letting them join the other birds, lets see first what happens. Maybe in the meantime you find another vet who could test for chlamydia and/or salmonella.

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Melissa, 


Sounds like a positive update! Could just be that your vet does know what he's doing afterall, let's hope so. Let's also hope for continued improvements each day with the birds


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll send you the pages out of the big book that cover chlamydiosis as well as the formulary for you to see what womers you can get a hold of and basically what each is good for. By the way, it takes some special labwork to prove chlamydiosis and it only gets tougher as they get over it. 

Chlamydiosis is an "obligate cellular parasite" that invades cells as an organism (and a very small one at that) and then replicates INSIDE the cell rather like a virus. Because of this, it has often been said to have a "viral component" but that's more an analogy. It's apparently very difficult if not impossible to get all these little hiding "initial bodies" when they've decided to go dormant inside the target cells. There is labwork that can be done to "see" them, but it's still looking for a needle in a haystack.

Okay, you've been inundated in email now. That ought to keep you reading for several hours and when you're done you'll know more than all of us so we'll be expecting a report.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks to everyone for your encouragement and excellent advice. I'll hold off on the bath like you said, and Now I have to get my husband back out to the "stupid market" as he lovingly calls the place where the vet is, to get some more meds-LOL! But as long as Mama's happy everybody's happy! So he tries real hard to keep me happy!

Hmmm. So that explains why such a long treatment is needed to get rid of all those nasty buggers. Sounds like the diagnosis is very difficult too. I'll ask the vet about it when I see him, and see if he can tell me why he said salmonella, and then gave me a treatment for chlamydia. Or perhaps it will treat for both? Maybe he is to lazy, like my husband, to bother with remembering the correct words...especially when dealing with a 'woman'. LOL. As long as they keep getting better, that's what matters to me!

Thanks for all the pages Pidgey! I'm gonna go check them out now!
Just no pop quizes please!

Gratefully yours, Melissa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... I didn't send anything on salmonella. Maybe I oughta' include that, too. You're going to have the whole book before this is over. Oh, well, it'll have all the salmonella differential diagnosis info in it. Hopefully, that section won't be too big. For everybody else, it's not really that bad. I've sent her about 45 pages or so and each page is a *.jpg that's about 160 KB or so.

Pidgey


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*Update!*

I just wanted to update you all on how things went today. Seems pretty positive! They where breathing thru their beaks a couple of times but mostly with them closed. They are feeling a little sassy now, and when I get them out to clean or medicate them I get grunted at and have to chase them a bit to catch them! And it is getting increasingly hard to hold on to them as they are getting fatter and wigglier! LOL. I'm so happy things are finally looking up! We're not out of the woods yet but I am hopeful!
I gave them the last of the med I had today and will be going to get more tomorrow afternoon when my husband gets home.

I've been working on all my homework from Pidgey, and I guess I'm about halfway thru it! LOL. I'm not ready to give my report yet though!

Seriously though, all the info you sent me has been a great help Pidgey! I am encouraged especially by the fact it states at one point that pigeons most commonly show conjuctivitis and nasal discharge with chlamydia, and they haven't had either of those symptoms. Fingers crossed, and saying a little prayer!
I'll get back with you all later!
Best Regards, Melissa


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is wonderful news, Melissa.
Well done.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

melissasue1968 said:


> I just wanted to update you all on how things went today. Seems pretty positive! They where breathing thru their beaks a couple of times but mostly with them closed. They are feeling a little sassy now, and when I get them out to clean or medicate them I get grunted at and have to chase them a bit to catch them! And it is getting increasingly hard to hold on to them as they are getting fatter and wigglier! LOL. I'm so happy things are finally looking up! We're not out of the woods yet but I am hopeful!
> 
> Best Regards, Melissa


Hi Melissasue,

I'm so glad things are looking up! Perhaps the vet knows more then he is letting on!


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## melissasue1968 (Jun 16, 2005)

*So far so good!*

They seem to be improving more each day! I feel pretty certain that they are well on their way to recovery now. My heartfelt thanks to everyone who has been helping and offering advice and ecouragement thru this ordeal! Especially Pidgey who I am certain must have spent hours searching for information, scanning pages and sending them to me!

BTW, when I went to get more med there was a different vet on duty, he seemed to be more knowledgable, I hope. He was respectful and listened to me carefully. (A good bedside manner does so much for one's confidence in a Doctor!) He even knew what Ivermectin was and I now have it!!!
I'm going to start a new thread to ask more about that.

Gratefully yours, Melissa


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wonderful!!!
I am really glad your guys are improving healthwise and you found a vet who knows what you're talking about.

Reti


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