# Indoors pigeons social relationships



## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

For a bit over a year, I became the proud owned of first 1, then 2, then 3 pigeons. The first two are a mated pair, the third is still unknown gender, a pox rescue with both wings broken that is, from this reason, unreleasable. 

Obviously, bringing a 3rd is a problem, especially with gender unknown. I am curious about how, in your experience, pigeons related to each other outside the usual mated pair interaction.

Blue - the last unknown gender pigeon, has been kept in a fairly separated enclosure - though not 100% proof, after he was free of pox. Blue started making calls in the morning, sounding more like my hen. My male pigeon first treated the whole thing rather indifferently, and they even spent an afternoon both watching outside the window, but at some point, he became curious in investigating Blue's place and Blue got really defensive about that. It all ended up in a fight and I had to separate them when they were not under supervision. They seem alright when left around the house, I assume Blue can just run when left a bigger space, or is generally not as defensive. However my male goes into fight mode when I hold Blue. As soon as I let him down, he minds his own business.

On the other hand, Blue is rather comfortable in Honey's presence (my hen). She is not aggressive and Blue follows her around the house, also dares eating with her. In the past half an hour they have both been calling each in a different room, sounding pretty similar, which ended up with Blue joining Honey and us in the office.

Do hens ever get attached to each other or is this a sign Blue might be a male and is looking at Honey as a potential mate. Blue is probably @4-5 months old - was a squeaker when I got him full of pox 3 months ago, but he was independent.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, my little new pigeon started singing today to my hen, to the great dismay of my male. Right now, it seems a lot that he is a guy. Doesn't do the tail dragging.

It seems I will have to look for a wife for him. Problem is, he is a flightless pigeon. Will I have to look for a similarly impaired pair so they can actually follow each other?

Here is a clip from today's bath session. The little one is the one outside, my pair is in the water together. They poked each other out of the water, and it was nice to see Blue holding his ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1F2p8Oq5-M&feature=youtu.be


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Beautiful birds! I dont know how to tell male from female until an egg is laid. Hope they are paired soon. Cute video too.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Oh, the 2 bathing together are a mated pair, they have been laying eggs for 9 months. 

The 3rd is a recent (couple of months rescue) that had pox when I got him, and we were told by the vet he also has both of his wings broken. This proved to be unfortunately true, and he cannot fly (he can jump @50 cm, and he can glide down from places). He's very skittish, but seemed to be warming up to me lately and accepts climbing on my hand so I can put him in places he cannot reach. I'm feeling pretty sorry for him being grounded while my other 2 perch on wardrobes and such. I have been watching his behaviour to guess his gender (we don't have those DNA labs in the country) and it's been pretty unclear so far, but wouldn't singing to a female be a give away? He also seems to have a bigger beak than my female, generally bigger frame - although he's still young, and the legs aren't as far apart as on my hen.


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## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Blue looks so much improved, even though he can't fly. You did a great job with him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I told you that a third bird would cause problems, especially if he were a male, which he most likely is. They should have their own cages, rather than the run of the house or room. That way they would see the cage as their area, instead of the whole room. He will need a companion as well. Would be easier to have another flightless bird, but not really necessary. 
You were at one time allowing him to spend time with just the female of the pair, which is a bad idea. Only going to cause problems.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I was fully aware of possible problems, but I can't keep a bird this size caged, I don't have a big enough cage and it just feels wrong. If I don't take him out of the balcony, he will just stay there and stare out the window all day, but I don't want him to have an empty life. They are spending time together all 3, with moderate success, but I can't deny him natural instincts. I had little signs of his gender so far, and today was the first sign towards a direction. Next step would be to find a mate for him, which is harder than it sounds, because I do not want to trap indoors a bird that can live outside, and there are no rescue places here to find another pigeon that needs help with ease.

I sent a message to the doctor that treated him, as I know he sometimes has rescues in his care. He said he has a colleague with a rescue, but they have no idea what gender it is. She agreed to give it away, but I'm not sure how will I know if it's a girl. Would taking Blue and seeing how he reacts to the other pigeon work?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When the female of the pair didn't mind him, but the male didn't want him around, that was a pretty good indication that he was a male.
His life will still be pretty empty without a companion. Pigeons aren't really very social. They live in flocks for survival, but are actually very territorial. They don't share well. They do live to pair up and breed. Without a mate, they are always looking for one. They will try to split up other pairs if they need to. 

As far as that other rescue, all you can do is to try and introduce them and see how it goes. You can always make a deal that you will return the bird if it doesn't work.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

In all honesty, I'm either hoping for a fast recognition of good relationship, which is probably unlikely, or dumb luck like I had with my other pair. I will tell the current owner about taking him back, but in all honesty, chances that she will actually take him back are probably slim, people generally want to pass the responsibility and move on.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Saphira, I'm really glad to know Blue is doing well!

I just want to tell you about my experience with Apple, my broken wing pigeon. She is married with Marshall, a flying pigeon. He is an excellent husband, they spend all their time together. Practically he never flies and just goes where Apple is able to go (for example, he never flies on the wardrobe). They walk a lot together, they spend a lot of time kissing each other in their box. They are inseparable, they love each other so much.
I rescued Marshall many months after Apple so in the meanwhile she had a "flirtation" with Fabio but it didn't work. He didn't behave like Marshall, (he flew on the top of the china cabinet leaving her alone, etc.), he didn't want to marry a flightless pigeon.

So, about my own experience, probably the success of this kind of relationship depends on the personality of each pigeon (lol talking about Apple and Marshall, it was love at first sight 😍 ) .
I suppose that Fabio didn't want to get marry with Apple because a flightless pigeon couldn't care about babies in a proper way outdoor (and, more generally, survive...). Even if he lives indoor (we rescued him because he was badly attacked by a predator) instinctively he thought about that (or, simply, he didn't like her 😂...).

Anyway, yes, you could try to take Blue to the vet and see the reaction (ask to the vet if the rescue had his quarantine). I was however considering that usually animals hate going to the vet and so their reactions could not be conclusive.

In any case, introduce them gradually, give them time and see what happens. I have more than a couple (all rescues adopted all around the years), they live together in the same room and have found their equilibrium.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

@Colombina, that is a useful experience to know. 

I postponed getting that rescue for now (today has been really busy at work). I am really hesitating getting a healthy young bird as a mate for Blue, I fear it will become frustrating for both of them.

I will not have the luxury to get them to spend time together and see how it goes. The rescue bird is not at a vet, but at a friend of the vet. She will just give it away, and if it doesn't work out, the bird will be my responsibility. If it's another male or it doesn't work out with Blue, my only choice will be to release it, as there is no way I can separate 3 males in an apartment. Best I could do would be some kind of enclosure until spring comes. This is a big responsibility for me, so I am considering things very seriously. To get a female and have her understand Blue's shortcomings is a pretty long shot. 

Meanwhile, I am now 99% sure Blue is a guy. He sketched some tail dragging moves when he saw Honey, and he started singing right away. My male came flying from the nest from the other side of the house and chased him. Honey isn't really paying him much attention, she just flies away somewhere high, letting him just look up, but still, I don't like stressing their relationship. He did come out of his balcony on his own today, which was a first.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't know that the person with the bird would not take her back if it didn't work out. They may be very willing to do that. Just put her in a cage in his area and see what happens. You will be able to tell if they want to be together. Taking him to the other bird to see his reaction won't work. He will not respond as he should when taken to a different environment. Before being so negative about the whole thing, find out if they would be willing to try it, and take the bird back if necessary. 

Yes many different birds can live together in the same place, but more females than males works better, even if still problems. Too many males will not really work for long. Their instinct to pair up and mate are too strong, and there will always be hassles. Pigeons are not happy on their own without a mate.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Are you on Facebook? There's a site called "Pigeon Angels" and one of the members (Andrei Stirbu) lives in Romania as well. I think he used to be on this forum as well, but was banned cause some of the advice he gave was a bit extreme.

He also does pigeon rescue. Maybe you can contact him and hopefully he will have a handicapped female for you.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

There is an Andrei Stirbu in that group, I will try to contact him. He lives in Bucharest, which is 500 km away, but I travel there with business occasionally and I do have a trip in January.

Regarding the rescue, yes, I do not know she will not take him back. She just seemed to agree to give it away a bit too easy and without any info. Maybe I'm too negative about it, but I do like to prepare for the least comfortable outcome. If things don't work out and she does take the bird back, it's no problem, it's if she doesn't that it is. Good to know that taking my bird there will not work. 

Blue came out of his balcony on his own today, little after Honey got off her nest. Coil did visit him a few times today - he goes and eats out of Blue's box, but Blue also started eating from my pair's box too. Coil chases Blue around the house, but there has been no more than that, they basically do the Benny Hill and that is all. I do not dare leaving them unsepparated when I leave the house, and I will be missing a few days for Xmas and then few for New Year's Eve. Especiall for Christmas, my mother is coming with me, so there will be 3 days with no supervision.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry, I naturally assumed that the rescue was at the clinic where the colleague of your vet works because my vet uses to keep all his rescues in his clinic...anyway, as I said, the reactions of the birds at the clinic could not be conclusive about the gender so it's not an important test...
Honestly, I think that we can't surely say what it could work or not, it depends on many factors other than on the personality of each bird. 
Do you know something about that bird? Is he/she an adult? A youngster? A baby? Do you know what is wrong with him/her? An injury? Illness? Is he/she taking meds? Is he/she just fallen from the nest? These are all factors which may affect the "test". It could be maybe needed some time before having an answer. 

About 2 years ago I rescued a glued pigeon, I kept him in a cage in a separate room from my birds. Lol I understood that he was a guy because once my pigeon Penny flew out of her room, landed on his cage and immediately showed a great interest for him! She always tried to escape from the room to go to visit him.

Anyway, as you are leaving home for a few days during next holidays, at your place I would postpone any decision about that rescue and in the meanwhile I would try to contact the person kindly suggested by Marina. If he has a disabled girl for you it would be great. 

Even in case the colleague of your vet agrees to take the bird back, it could be a stressful experience for that bird change again and again environment. Then (I'm going to say that because I'm thinking about myself, for you it could be different), it could be maybe hard for you giving him back knowing that he needs a home (about what you said, it seems that this person would like to give him away). It could become a complicated situation but, as I said, I said that thinking about myself...


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

All I know about that bird is that it's a juvenile, rescued because too young to handle on his own. The vet told he it's a healthy bird. I know nothing else, was just a short conversation on whatsapp: I told him I'm looking for a wife for Blue, and if he happens to stumble over a lady pigeon that for any reason is unreleasable, he should let me know. He said he has a colleague that rescued a young pigeon and he will call her and see about it. Then after a short while he said she's willing to give him and if I can pick it up next day in the morning. I told him it's important to be a girl, he was under the impression they will get along anyway - so I emphasized the issue by telling him about the beating Blue got. Then he just said he honestly doesn't know the gender, only that it's a healthy bird.

Today I head some commotion on Blue's balcony, after he had gone to his home, so I went to see what's up and found Coil (that's my male pigeon) talking to Coil. I filmed them - Blue is already in his sleeping place. Blue is the more throaty sounding one - which made me confused for quite a while, as he sounds a lot like Honey and he is not very vocal (I think today is the most I've ever heard him).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5iwkNSBVJ8&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OKSWIhl7VE&feature=youtu.be

Does anybody know if perlite is bad for pigeons? I completed the soil on my olive "trees" today, as the pigeons tend to dig in those a lot and I added a little perlite and Coil was stealing it from Blue's home pots.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, we are back home, and I contacted that person with the rescue, we brought the new pigeon in today. She's had it for 3-4 months, was kept in a box, with the intention of releasing it in the spring. It's very skittish. It's also small, small beaked and with a small forehead, which could imply its a female, but they all look delicate when young. Flew right out of the box and flapped around madly for a while, breathing really hard (never seen a bird so scared).

My older male went straight to it, cooing and dancing. Looked more like courting than attacking, but who knows. If it was that, shame on him, married man.

Blue looked just lost. I picked him up and put him up next to the new pigeon and after a couple of minutes he started singing and bowing to it. The new pigeon was just scared and eventually flew off.

I had locked Coil outside the room, as he was so pushy, but he was making a racket at the door, so I let him in eventually. He went back to sing to the new one, and Blue attacked him. I had to pull them apart, but it was Blue that kept trying to jump on Coil.

I've separated Blue and the new one from my pigeons in Blue's balcony. Blue snapped a little at the new one too when it was close to his nest box, he's really territorial with that place, but nothing else happened, the new one ate a little from Blue's box, even though I had put it a separate box just in case there's conflict. They've both been watching outside the window for the past hour, and it's now getting dark.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

New birds should always be quarantined for a month first. And new birds need to be introduced slowly, not just let loose with other birds coming at him/her. That would just be more scary for him.
The way you keep them makes things very chaotic and difficult to control. They should each have cages for nest boxes, so that they can be confined when necessary. Or at least a way to lock them into their nest area, even if it's a large box on it's side. The poor thing would be more scared with different birds coming at him/her. He needs time to adjust to a new place and feel comfortable before introducing him to the others. And introductions should be done slowly. The idea is to introduce the new bird to Blue first, and see if they will pair up, before any of the others even meet him/her. You are going to have more problems doing it as you are.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

About the quarantine thing, I thought about it too, but the pigeon was kept alone in a box for 3-4 months, with no contact with other birds. Shouldn't some sickness manifested itself by now?

The get-together wasn't intended, it just bolted from the box it was brought to me, and it looked so terrified, I didn't dare chase it around until it stopped breathing hard. 

I built a cage for it today. It's in the same balcony with Blue, but sadly I could not arrange for much direct eye contact. They can only see each other through some plants. It spent today alone in the other bedroom, basically not moving from a pillow. I had to put the food next to it on the said pillow, as it didn't seem inclined to go eat. We moved it already and I heart it nibble before it got dark, and now it's sleeping on a box I arranged for it.

The cage is about 50 cm wide, 90 cm long and 1.1 meters tall. Hope it's good enough. I don't like caging birds, but you're right - it's safer this way for everybody, and it didn't seem inclined to move a lot - though for a bird that was raised in a box, it flies pretty well - but loses breath very fast.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he loses breath easily then he could have a respiratory problem, or just be out of shape in not receiving any exercise.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I suspected a respiratory problem too, but all sicknesses related seem to have some form of discharge involved, and the pigeon's nose and beak are clean. I only seems to happen when scared or doing some effort. 

It seems comfortable with its new cage. 

Here's a video when I put Blue on the side of the bed so he can see the other pigeon. There wasn't much interaction, he just preened himself (he had just taken a bath). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEa9KWj7zac&feature=youtu.be

This is the cage and the new pigeon: http://oi64.tinypic.com/250mgxj.jpg

Edit: Offered it a bath since I noticed its chest a little wet and the water cup half empty. It's been soaking and splashing merrily for the past quarter of an hour.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Hope they will soon fall in love and have a happy life together!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, still need the new one to be the proper gender, and there has been no signs one way or the other so far.

As for the being kept without exercise, from what I understood it was kept in a box, so there's high chances it didn't get much flying around.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I admit to being quite confused.

I heard the new pigeon today trying a brief coo-ing and thought it's a guy. It also coo-ed at me when I put my hand in the cage to get fresh water there.
It also seemed terribly curious about Coil, climbing on the cage walls and pacing in front of the curtain - so I pulled the curtain a bit to see what happens. What happened is that Coil started dancing - and it looked to me like courtship dance. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g94P8T4yO0&feature=youtu.be

I pulled back the curtains, and brought Blue on the edge of the cage so he can see the new pigeon well. He danced a little too, but is obviously much more shy. I left him there for now, they don't seem inclined to biting.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hope they do well together.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sadly, I woke up to some mayhem today. The new pigeon had somehow gotten out of his cage and was free in the balcony and Blue was chasing and trying to peck it. Wasn't a huge deal, as it kept flying away, but this seems to mean it's either not a female, or they don't like each other. I've put it back in its cage now, but not having high hopes. 

Thing is, the person I got it from wants to release it in spring. While it's not a tame pigeon, its chances aren't great. Same time, if it's a male, I can't keep it. Pretty sad right now .


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I confess being throughly confused about the new pigeon gender. I'll call it Red, to keep it gender neutral.

Red discovered how to get out of the cage and takes advantage of it. I did not have enough net for the cage, so one side of it is half open (upper half) towards a grate with plants, which I thought would be a good enough stop, but Red discovered that if it climbs in the upper side, it can get through the plants. After the mayhem from this morning, I put it back in the cage only to find it later outside perched on a ladder that's stored in the balcony, then on a piece of wood near the window. My female pigeon, Honey, also went in the balcony (which is weird, she never goes there) and they spent half a day together watching outside, in peace. Blue has been moody, and hid some under the bed, until I poked him to his home and sealed the balcony, after Honey went to nest. He's now on his box, while Red is nestled on the window sill next to him, and seems to have no inclination to going home (moved it, much to its dismay and arguing).

Thing is, there was some commotion between Blue and Coil at some point, and Red came in my bedroom too. Coil instantly started courting Red - which caused Honey to come flying on my head and see who's her husband courting.

So, Coil treats Red like a female, but Blue seems either indifferent or grumpy to it.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Just give it time. Male pigeons will often chase the females, this does not mean that the one getting chased is a male as well.


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## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Pigeons can be confusing. I have a feral couple that currently incubates eggs in a gap in my window. Today at noon, the male was sitting on the eggs, while the female brought him some more branches and pine needles to put under himself; as far as I know, usually it's the other way around.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Friend John said:


> Pigeons can be confusing. I have a feral couple that currently incubates eggs in a gap in my window. Today at noon, the male was sitting on the eggs, while the female brought him some more branches and pine needles to put under himself; as far as I know, usually it's the other way around.


Not really. They both will collect the nesting materials. Sometimes the female more than the male. That's normal.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Saphira said:


> Sadly, I woke up to some mayhem today. The new pigeon had somehow gotten out of his cage and was free in the balcony and Blue was chasing and trying to peck it. Wasn't a huge deal, as it kept flying away, but this seems to mean it's either not a female, or they don't like each other. I've put it back in its cage now, but not having high hopes.
> 
> Thing is, the person I got it from wants to release it in spring. While it's not a tame pigeon, its chances aren't great. Same time, if it's a male, I can't keep it. Pretty sad right now .


Any pigeon kept in an area for a while will view that area as their own. It's very normal for that pigeon to chase out any others that venture in, whether male or female makes no difference. Even males trying to attract a certain female, will often chase her out when she ventures into their nest box. Their territorial drive is very strong. But they should be in actual cages that they cannot get through. Not impossible to build or fix something like that up.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

It's true it wouldn't be hard to make that cage un-escapable, but now that Red got used to being relatively free (I still keep the balcony sealed when my other male is out), I feel bad to put it in a cage it obviously doesn't want to be in and which was to be a temporary solution only. The cage was built solely for Red to feel safe and it seems Red doesn't feel it needed.

Last night I attempted to put Red to sleep at least in its cage, it was already dark but I found it not 10 minutes after back to its chose place near Blue. I resorted to just moving its box there so at least it could sleep a bit away from the window, which is pretty cold at this time of the year. Happily, it accepted that part. 

It's very easy for Red to escape Blue, since there are higher places it can go in the balcony, and Blue can't get to those. They do seem to spend their day in peace in proximity to each other, and I'm glad Blue gets some company that doesn't bite or is not inappropriate. I do let Honey go there when she is off the nest and they spend a couple of hours together just watching outside.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

After 3 weeks, I'm still unsure about Red's gender, but it might be another male, as both Blue and Coil seems slightly hostile towards him. I keep Blue and Red together in the balcony, as Red has no issues dealing with the minor hostility by just flying somewhere where Blue can't reach, and Coil is an ass to everybody basically, except his wife, who occasionally beats him, even if she's like half his size. The clamoring in the mornings has become impressive as Coil and Blue are competing in moaning harder. Red seems mostly quiet, and when he (or she) sings, it sounds a bit like a broken trumpet. He's either a she or is going through some adolescent voice changing.

I'm considering building a coop on top of the building when spring comes. I know there's a neighbour with the key up there and I'm thinking of approaching him. Both Blue and Red are not particularly friendly to humans.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Sorry that Red and Blue keep beefing. We have a male/ female pair who fought for months. I put them in adjoining cages but every time Buzzy laid an egg, she would try to kill her mate. So i separated them back into adjoining cages each time until she lost interest in her eggs. Finally after about six months now they are getting along! She has stopped laying eggs for now ( as have all our birds) but i am so relieved that i dont have to keep separating them. So it is possible that you do have a male and female pair. Or two males? The only real way to tell without DNA testing is when they lay an egg. Hope they get along better soon. If Blue and Coil are a pair then Red will be a threat until he/she also has a friend/ mate ( we have a very happy female/ female pair). Three is an odd number.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sorry, I didn't explain my pigeon family: Coil and Honey are a mated pair for about a year (by the way, how did you manage to make them take a break from laying eggs, because I would like mine to take a break too, they lay a pair like clockwork every month). Blue is a pox rescue that can't fly anymore (had both his wings broken). I've been looking for a mate for him, as he's started showing interest in Honey, and I don't want to isolate him). That's how I got Red, which is a juvenile that I don't know what gender it is. I had some hopes in the start because Coil was courting Red, but I can't tell anymore. Red did accidentally fly in a room one day and since he's scared to land anywhere low, he went up on Coil's wardrobe, which didn't go too well, since Coil is extremely territorial and plucked a beakfull of Red's neck feathers.

For better or worse, even if they are not particularly friendly to each other, Blue generally tolerates Red and at least he's got some company, especially since now I miss during the day as well. Red is a very skittish bird, panics a lot. It's a rather small pigeon.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Our pigeons thankfully have slowed down their egg laying over the past few years especially in the winter. One exception though is Lucy who lives with another female, Tracy. Lucy is still laying even in the winter. Hope Blue and Red end up paired.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm starting to be convinced Red is a guy. The other day, he got into a fight with Coil when Coil tried to invade the "cage". While Red is usually extremely skittish, when I stuck my hand between them to separate them, he just kept pecking at my hand and trying to grab Coil's neck. Seems he's got a territory thing about the cage, which is weird, because he doesn't stay there aside from eating. He also started cooing at me when I stuck my hand in the cage to fill his food bowl. 

Last 2 days he's also had several attempts of leaving the balcony and going exploring. Coil is usually chasing him back.

Sleeping habits in the balcony changed as well. Red is now electing to sleep on a ladder and Blue is sleeping on the window sill closest to Red. This is weird because Blue never slept away from his box from the day I gave it to him. 

I am worried Blue will become depressed seeing another pigeon flying away from him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

At this point, I'm pretty sure Red is a guy. He fights the other 2 male pigeons whenever he thinks they are invading his territory, which is his old "cage". He technically only eats there, but the place is also a safe haven against Blue, who can't fly there. Still, Blue and Red usually coexist pretty well. They also seem to band together against Coil, who changes his mind about invading the balcony when hearing both cooing. Red also tried to hit on Honey, but usually they are separated. I'm letting them out of the balcony on saturdays, when I clean there. 

The confusing part is that when they are on the floor, Blue sometimes follows Red around cooing and bowing. 

I made some changes in the balcony. 

In the start, Blue had his nest box in the plants he would sleep in, and even if I arranged a similar one for Red, he didn't use it, and preferred sleeping on the window sill near Blue's box. At some point, not sure why, Red started sleeping on a ladder on the other side of the balcony, and Blue moved to sleep on the window sill near it. 

I felt sorry for Blue looking a bit like a homeless person, so I built him a nest box in that spot, but after that, I thought about expanding his space and put a wooden plank between the sill and the ladder, which he enjoyed a lot, enough that he moved to sleep on it, under Red. So I installed another box there - except that he used it to get on top of the ladder, where he was extremely happy. Red, on the other hand, wasn't, as he lost his sleeping place, which Blue decided to defend like a madman. For a few nights. I made Red a temporary high place on top of a nightstand I placed in his cage, but he was migrating at night between that and the nest at the window, then on the nest under Blue. 

Yesterday I lifted the nest on the window sill up on the wall. It was installed on the sill initially so Blue reaches it. Red found it pretty fast and seemed happy to sleep there. 

Here's some pics. Red is changing his head feathers and looks a bit ragged and very spiky. He's the one in the nest near the window, and Blue is the one on the ladder.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/dvmukg.jpg
http://oi67.tinypic.com/aomf0i.jpg
http://oi65.tinypic.com/2cgbiol.jpg


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

males don't really need a nest. Just a good perch. They prefer it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I know, and Blue just sleeps on the top of the ladder. I put a towel on it, for better grip, since the ladder is metalic. But the boxes make good perches and they poop in them, which makes them easy to clean.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

But they have to perch on the side of the basket. They are much more comfortable on a flat perch. When perched on the side wall of the basket, then they need to hold on tightly the whole time. Standing flat on a perch and not having to grip it to stand and perch is more comfortable for their feet, and a more natural position for them. Can always put a piece of newspaper under the perch to catch the poop. Tape it in place if need be.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll see about arranging perches then .

I'm unsure about how to proceed with my pigeons. I have 3 males, and the 2 "celibate" ones are making a lot of noise, probably calling for mates. They seem to have established some kind of peck order so the fighting is minimal: in the balcony, Blue and Red are masters, and Coil walks around carefully, when he actually is allowed in. If one of them comes to him, he flies to me. Red does try to attack Coil on my head, even if he is usually afraid of humans. Between Red and Blue, Blue is considered the "master" and Red flies away if Blue chases him. Red occasionally manages to escape the balcony, but Coil usually brings him back (much faster than I would ever manage).

Blue sings a lot to a pigeon from outside. Seems they have a daily visitor. I wonder if it's a lady, seems smaller. I do have pigeons (ferals) in the attic, might be one of those. Red occasionally paces the window sill, looking like he's trying to get out. 

Considering I would get them mates, it's impossible for me to keep 6 pigeons in my apartment. Blue has no chances outside, being flightless, and Coil is way too tame, but Red is neither. The question is what would be best for him:
1. Try a "soft release". I feed the pigeons in my area, if he would learn to stick with that flock. 
2. Try find him a breeder. The problem is birds that are not race worthy tend to end up in soup with those. I've seen people selling pigeon meat. 
3. Try to build a coop on the top of my building. If it's a closed one, the risk is a neighbour getting there and hurting them. It's a large building, I don't know all my neighbours, and many people can't stand these birds.

I'm attracted to the build a coop idea, for my own pigeons to get some fresh air and sun. Honey has been sick every month since November when laying eggs: she gets flightless for a few days every time she lays, and almost immobile for a day or two. In January I found her under the bed, just lying on the floor, an egg rolled a small distance away. I do give her grit and calcium and vitamin D supplements, but... She laid one of the eggs small or not at all for the past few months. This month, she looked so dejected, sitting on the edge of the nest and just staring at the wall, that I decided to let her have a baby (I removed the 2nd egg, was abnormally small anyway). If I'm lucky, I'll have a potential wife for Blue, if not, I'll need to find a solution for both Red and the baby when he grows up. I figured if I can find a solution for one, I can apply it to 2. 

Could use a bit of help in choosing how to proceed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For one thing, Honey isn't getting enough calcium and vit. D3 if that is happening to her when she lays. That is why it happens. Grit isn't enough, oyster shell isn't enough, and the amound of D3 in bird vitamins isn't enough D3. She needs a good supplement that has just calcium and vit. D3. Like CalciBoost, or CalciVet, or similar. Eventually she will get egg bound and die if it isn't fixed.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> For one thing, Honey isn't getting enough calcium and vit. D3 if that is happening to her when she lays. That is why it happens. Grit isn't enough, oyster shell isn't enough, and the amound of D3 in bird vitamins isn't enough D3. She needs a good supplement that has just calcium and vit. D3. Like CalciBoost, or CalciVet, or similar. Eventually she will get egg bound and die if it isn't fixed.


She is getting this: https://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Zolcal-D1.aspx
However, I can't control how much she drinks of it. I've resorted to mixing her seed with another calcium supplement that I found here in the form of powder (using a bit of olive oil to make them stick), on top of her always getting Zolcal in her drinking water (not just when she lays eggs).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you are giving her by the directions on the bottle then she may just always have a problem. If she doesn't take enough, then maybe make bread balls and soak them in it, and feed them to her by hand. That's really too bad, as it can eventually lead to her becoming egg bound. 
As far as the other bird, if he is 100%, then a soft release may work with him.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I am dosing by the directions and her water is always mixed with the stuff, but she likes to drink from her bath, so she skips some days. Generally both Coil and her drink and eat very little compared to Red, for example. The decision to let her hatch one egg was not taken lightly, as I am responsible for that bird. I've read many times they don't care about eggs not hatching but I swear she was getting depressed. Lately she just stood on the edge of the nest or around it, facing a wall, staring down. In January she spent abnormally lots of time on the nest, barely leaving it for a couple of hours. She seems normal now, leaving the nest even earlier than usual (around 10 am), eating, then going back for an hour or so at noon, then taking her usual break until 5-ish pm. Eats a lot better than she did in January. She came to eat hemp from my hand this morning, which had not happened in weeks. Her flying has been back to normal for about a week, but I am always worried in the week she lays eggs (this month I installed a camera near their nest, so I can check on her when I'm at work).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do you switch the eggs out for fake eggs? Does he share the nesting responsibilities?
When she is spending so much time on the nest, are there eggs in the nest?
I feel that they do care that the eggs don't hatch. They do want to raise babies. But you also need to remember that they are only babies for 1 month, then you have another adult pigeon to take care of. If she continues to have this problem, then it will get worse. There could be something else going on health wise with her also.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I do switch eggs with plastic ones. She has 2 now too, but one is plastic. I replaced the small one - I've read they don't usually hatch, but I did not want to risk a malformed baby. 

Coil does share nesting responsibilities, and he seems to enjoy it, it was just her going back and poking him aside. She beats him sometimes too, which is pretty hilarious, because he just coos and never retaliates while she mops the top of the wardrobe with him, and she is smaller than him. She does it more often towards the end of the 3 weeks nesting time, but she sometimes does it to chase him away. They have a loving relationship otherwise, with her twitching her wing at him and both of them sitting in the nest together and snuggling sometimes (it's a large enough box).

She's always been a healthy pigeon, but I do worry there could be something wrong too. I hope it is the lack of sunlight and laying too many eggs, and not something more complicated, as we don't have specialized avian veterinaries around here. And yes, I am aware of the responsibility, but it was painful to watch her in that state. This is why I want to build them a healthier place at least for the summer.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You shouldn't hope it is the lack of sunlight and laying too many eggs, as that can lead to egg binding and she can die from that. Calcium and vit. D3 is VERY important for a hen.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Today, as usually on saturdays, was bathing day for Red and Blue while I clean their balcony, and with this occasion Red got a new perch. Blue looks a little jealous, Red seems content.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/140m0z.jpg


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## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

How does Blue get that high without flying? I see there is a ladder of sorts so he can jump up but it still looks like a high jump to the top of the thing with the towel for a pigeon that can't fly.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

That perch is not for Blue, it's for Red, a rescue pigeon I got in the hope it's a lady, but it turned out to be a male. His perch is put intentionally out of reach of Blue (and so is his eating place) so he doesn't get beaten. Granted, he nowadays grew and is not only standing his ground, but generally looking for fights with everybody else, but Blue usually dominates him, and he flies to his places. I'm thinking about a soft release for Red, as he is healthy and not tamed at all, and having 3 males can get very noisy, but currently considering exactly how to do it.

Blue is the pigeon on the ladder in the picture, that is his sleeping spot. He jumps there from the nest box I put there for him, but he just used it to get higher. 

They have a daily visitor, and since Blue is singing and dancing to it very great interest, I wonder if its a lady - it does look smaller and doesn't fluff up and coo. They seem to try to get to each other through the window, in a non-aggressive way. Today it's windy and rainy outside, but that pigeon still came.


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## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I know that Blue is the one on the ladder, it just looks like a big jump from the step where his nest is to the top of the ladder--I wonder how he managed to get there without flying. Blue must be quite resourceful, but I guess it is not surprising after what he went through.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

He does manage to fly for about a meter when he jumps from somewhere higher - but then his wing gives in, and he does jump about half a meter up - like getting on the couch for example. It did surprise me a bit when he got on that ladder - he simply jumps after a little eyeing, as I had only intended to get him a better sleeping spot. You should have seen Red's dismay, took him whole day of giving up trying to sit there. I also sometimes take him on my hand to lift him to higher places he seems jealous on the other pigeons he can't reach and he tends to jump way ahead of me getting near the spot. 

He's nowhere as tame as Coil is, but I guess he does accept me in some way, as he twitches his wing and bows to me when I go to their balcony. It's not the same kind of bonding that was happening before I got Coil a mate, but maybe it's a declaration of acceptance? Blue seems to court a pigeon from outside and I'm thinking how I could let them get closer. I'm thinking about ordering an insect net for that window and build on it the same kind of cage I got for Honey and Coil in the office.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Unfortunately the egg I left in my pigeon's nest did not hatch. They just abandoned the nest and went into lovey-dovey time. I'll have to make sure that Honey drinks water from the calcium pot in the nest period.
My husband noticed a pigeon coop on the terrace of a building nearby. I'm tempted to look for the person and see if they would accept Red. 
Here's Honey and Coil taking a bath yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MphG6Pt-8FU&feature=youtu.be


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Lots of news:

We left Honey and Coil keep their last batch of eggs (for some reason Honey didn't seem to have her usual issues either). The nest is in a place where I can't see in unless I take it down, so we didn't know what's happening in it. LAst week, while cleaning the livingroom, I found an egg shell that had some small veins on the inside - so I decided to take that box down and check it. Done and here's the result: http://oi64.tinypic.com/2m2c8ib.jpg

Interesting that they took the egg shell away from the nest (it's basically in another room and nobody else but them could have gotten it there). The other egg shell was still in the nest.

This was taken on tuesday, after 2 days: http://oi67.tinypic.com/33yml8y.jpg

This is from thursday: http://oi67.tinypic.com/egjmp.jpg

And this is from today: http://oi66.tinypic.com/23vx1k9.jpg

Honey and Coil eat like champions, I've never seen them so constantly hungry. They don't both fit in the food crate as they generally don't eat at the same time, so they got into a fight about it, and I had to put a separate bowl of seed. They never ate much, but now it's all different. Honey also seems to beat Coil more, sadly.

The chicks seem to like to play with each other a fair bit. Here's a movie, it's rather blurry as today is cloudy outside and I made it with maximum zoom, as I can't see the nest from closer because of the angle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emJ6tJX8uW4&feature=youtu.be

On the other hand, seeing how much Blue enjoys being brought at the office window, I ordered a frame and made one for his balcony. I was also getting complains about pooped windows from a neighbor, since the feral pigeons were taking permanent residence around my apartment, so I decided to move their feeding spot in the other balcony, as that side of the building doesn't have poopable windows. They moved pretty fast and now feed on the window sill where Blue is. This also had the intention of getting Red used to them. I don't have a proper cage and my working times aren't fit for doing a soft release as I read, but I hope having a window that works as a cage and pigeons eating and spending time there will work similar. I'd also like him to learn that he can find food there. 

They both seem to enjoy that window a lot (Honey and Coil never really cared much for theirs), especially Blue, who would sit nowhere else if the window is open and whine if it's closed. He is a bit messing my plans about having Red interact with the other pigeons, but they generally accept each other sitting there. Blue likes to eat with the outside ones, sticks his head through the net and eats with them. Today it's cold and raining outside, and when I went to close the window after feeding them in the morning I found him there, fluffed up and with his head down, just like outside pigeons sit in the rain. 

In other news about Blue, his "flight" abilities seem improved. He got himself alone on the window sill in the office (I move them there when I clean) several times today. Yesterday cleaning took longer, as I hopefully dismantled the biological bomb of the balcony where I treated Blue of pox last year (took all the junk in it, disinfected and washed it, and disinfected and washed the walls, floor and window there).

So...this gets me thinking. One problem is Blue wakes me up already at 6.30, which is alright, gets me to work at 8. Still, as summer gets closer, light will be earlier and earlier and I'm afraid waking up at 5 am will be wrecking for me. Another is that he likes a lot that window open and I can't keep it so that much. I'm thinking about turning the balcony where I treated him in an aviary and have him there, as that balcony is sealed from the rest of the house. It's smaller than the current (about a meter and a half by a meter and a bit), but Blue doesn't use anything other than the sill and the wooden plank I installed for him). It's also got a window up that opens vertically and I'm thinking that if I could open that 90 degrees I could leave it open for Red to come back if he wants to (not holding a lot of hope but still, if he does, I'd like him to have the option). Blue can't get to it, it's too high. I could use some proper shelves in there to store all the junk protected from dust and I could make them custom made to get him a proper moving space on op of them.

Here's Red and Blue and their new window. Red is the lighter coloured one, Blue is the other. Coil kept jumping on my head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3FTHwqTfA&feature=youtu.be


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

So how did you get interested in feral pigeons? I think it’s pretty interesting how they benefit from your feeding and and care, they sure aren’t afraid to come to your balcony and eat. I do know one thing if feed is involved chances are you won’t scare them away.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Technically I always liked birds, and I always liked feeding pigeons in the town square, but more specifically my relationship with the ones at my window started last year. The winter was uncommonly long and snowy. We had serious snows in march, there were news of storks needing rescuing because they had returned and everything was frozen, and generally bird organizations asked people to help wild birds to survive. I already had Coil, which was a rescue that grew up with us and for that reason was very tame (he had started to bond with me when I found Honey, which was another rescue). I thought he suffers without the company of his kind, so I started feeding the ferals at the window of my home office. They first didn't touch the food, grains stood there for days, but eventually they started eating. Because of Coil and Honey I got attached to pigeons so I continued feeding them during the summer, and now I always have a sack of grains at home. It's more basic food than the specialized stuff I give my pigeons (they have pigeon mix) - it's a mix of wheat, corn, sunflower and I think rye that I found in the farmer's market (country people feed it to fowl), but probably still miles better than what they get from humans usually. 

I wouldn't say they are not afraid of me, they still fly at sudden moves, but they come to the window if they see me. Problem is above my office there's a neighbor whose windows are sort of slanted. The pigeons got the habit of sitting on the edge of the building (and everywhere around my office window). He's a really nice guy, and he told it to me in as kind of a way as possible, but I really didn't want to cause him extra work. He told me he used to have pigeons, but one day the cat from the 6th floor got to them and killed all the babies and the old pigeons, and the others never came back. 

Anyway, I enjoy feeding them, my husband enjoys taking photographs of them, so we're not really worried about getting rid of them. They have nests in the roof on top of our building. Coil and Honey never really had a lot of interest in other pigeons, but Blue is a lot happier since he gets to "talk" to them. I'm concerned about him catching some disease, but keeping him locked and lonely all his life feels about as bad. They really do prefer the company of their kind. The only really tame out of the bunch is Coil, was was raised with us alone, the rest, that had contact with other pigeons, only come to us when they want and they don't particularly enjoy cuddles.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Those babies are really adorable!


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

Saphira said:


> Technically I always liked birds, and I always liked feeding pigeons in the town square, but more specifically my relationship with the ones at my window started last year. The winter was uncommonly long and snowy. We had serious snows in march, there were news of storks needing rescuing because they had returned and everything was frozen, and generally bird organizations asked people to help wild birds to survive. I already had Coil, which was a rescue that grew up with us and for that reason was very tame (he had started to bond with me when I found Honey, which was another rescue). I thought he suffers without the company of his kind, so I started feeding the ferals at the window of my home office. They first didn't touch the food, grains stood there for days, but eventually they started eating. Because of Coil and Honey I got attached to pigeons so I continued feeding them during the summer, and now I always have a sack of grains at home. It's more basic food than the specialized stuff I give my pigeons (they have pigeon mix) - it's a mix of wheat, corn, sunflower and I think rye that I found in the farmer's market (country people feed it to fowl), but probably still miles better than what they get from humans usually.
> 
> I wouldn't say they are not afraid of me, they still fly at sudden moves, but they come to the window if they see me. Problem is above my office there's a neighbor whose windows are sort of slanted. The pigeons got the habit of sitting on the edge of the building (and everywhere around my office window). He's a really nice guy, and he told it to me in as kind of a way as possible, but I really didn't want to cause him extra work. He told me he used to have pigeons, but one day the cat from the 6th floor got to them and killed all the babies and the old pigeons, and the others never came back.
> 
> Anyway, I enjoy feeding them, my husband enjoys taking photographs of them, so we're not really worried about getting rid of them. They have nests in the roof on top of our building. Coil and Honey never really had a lot of interest in other pigeons, but Blue is a lot happier since he gets to "talk" to them. I'm concerned about him catching some disease, but keeping him locked and lonely all his life feels about as bad. They really do prefer the company of their kind. The only really tame out of the bunch is Coil, was was raised with us alone, the rest, that had contact with other pigeons, only come to us when they want and they don't particularly enjoy cuddles.


My pigeons fly at sudden moves also and they were all hatched in a loft situation, really they are no different, except I can close them in and catch one if I needed to. But as homers they act just the same. Very reactive because they are a prey animal with great survival skills and athletic.


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## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Those are great pictures, especially the second one. The video of the squabs is so adorable.

The feral flock I'm feeding will also fly from fast\sudden moves, but it depends. If they are really startled they'll fly off and come back after a few minutes (if there is still food that wasn't eaten). If they are less jumpy, they'll circle back in the air as a flock and land right back again in a few seconds. If they're just cautious and play it just to be safe, they'll fly out of arm reach, and land very close by (5 to 0.5 meters away). It took a while, but now several of the flock birds ares willing to eat from my hand and even the ones who don't, don't mind eating the seeds right next to my hand, and as long as I move my hand slowly they don't mind it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

@Ladygrey - do you keep homers?

Would you mind giving me some explanations on how they "work"?

Like, if I release Red - which is a young pigeon that somebody gave me after finding him as a baby (so he's never been on his own outside) - what are his chances to adapt? Do they always fly out first with their parents or just their flock? I often read about people that keep pigeons trading baby pigeons, how does that work? Do they get used to the new flock and just fly with them? How long does it take and how young do they have to be?

I guess I'm just trying to give him the best chances. I can keep him where he is, but he's caught between a very territorial male (Coil) and one male (Blue) that I plan to get a mate for someday (I'm kinda hoping one of the babies will be one). I can't release Coil, as he is way too tame , and I can't release Blue as he can't fly, but Red is a healthy bird that deserves a real pigeon life. I would very much like to give him the best of the two worlds - freedom to fly and a safe place to sleep and eat, but I have no idea how that coming back thing actually happens. Or is that a specific breed that does it?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Meh.

Neighbour downstairs, which is a piece of ..., just called us and told us to stop feeding the pigeons if we care about them, or he will poison them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeons hand raised since babies don't have a very high rate of surviving outside on their own. They don't know how to find food or shelter or anything. It can also be difficult to join a flock they are not used to. 

As far as the neighbor.............maybe they are getting droppings on their balcony. Otherwise why would they be complaining? It's difficult when you live near other people, as they can be messy, and many will complain.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

All the balconies here are closed with glass, so not much possibility of mess into them. I'm not saying they leave no trace, but not so much as to want to kill them. Felt depressing to come home from work today and see them fly to my balcony when they saw me, just to be left disappointed. I went downstairs to feed them, hope that doesn't bother people. 

In these new circumstances I'm reconsidering releasing Red. I was counting on him at least finding food here if he stuck around. I'll think of another solution.

Babies are growing, with the parents eating constantly. I have no idea how pigeons outside manage. I had to clean the nest the other day, they poop on a side but it was still getting smelly. Honey did jump on the nest, and Coil tried to bite me, but overall they were fine, they went right at the babies after and fed them.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Saphira, the babies are sooo lovely 😍! 

I'm sorry to hear about the problem with your neighbor...unfortunately some people have no qualms about killing animals so be really careful... 
In the Italian sea town where we have an apartment people (residents and tourists) regularly poison pigeons, doves, cats, ducks etc. especially in summer time. Years ago I found some dead pigeons even on my balconies (usually we never go there so pigeons used my balconies as a shelter), my vet and the association that I contacted suggested me to report what happened to the police. I did it.
My ex French neighbor (fortunately she moved last year) killed pigeons and doves living in the neighborhood by anticoagulant rat poison (the one in red grains)... I rescued and adopted one of the pigeon who ate it, Bruna, I had to treat her with vit K1, fortunately she survived. 

I'm really glad to hear that Blue "flight abilities" improved! I think I talked you about my broken wing pigeon, Apple. Sometimes I find her even on the top of shelf storage...she is really determined, when she wants to go somewhere she finds a way to go there: once she wanted to go on a dresser so she jumped from the floor to the table, then from the table to the dresser. Pigeons are really smart and determined!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

We are exploring solutions for Red - one idea could be to take him to a zoo in the town of my parents in law, apparently they have an aviary with pigeons there and they are not really counting them - would that be a good idea? We're going there for Easter and I'll go see how the place looks. 

Meanwhile, the babies are growing (with the parents constantly eating). I came to the conclusion raising babies is taxing for pigeons too. Here they are, 2 weeks old?
http://oi66.tinypic.com/bhao1x.jpg

Edit: I clean their nest every 2-3 days, it gets messy and smells - that's why they are on a blanket in the picture. They only stay there for a few minutes while i shake the poop out.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Sadly the zoo doesn't accept birds anymore since they had troubles with sick birds, and all other options in that town fell apart but I found a friend of a friend who is a breeder and said that one extra pigeon next to his 60 won't make a difference. I'm gonna miss Red, even if we tried to not have him used to us, they all have their personalities and it's hard to let them go after you know them, but Red is constantly restless and flying between the 2 points he can in that balcony. Especially when they start bowing and wing twitching at you it's really hard to let them go. To be honest, Blue is also fretting sometimes in front of the window, lifting his wings like he wants out, but sadly that is out of the question for him. Coil never acted like this. He used to watch outside when he was really young, but gave up and became more interested in us soon enough, caring little for the outside after.

Meanwhile, Honey&Coil's babies are growing. They were moved out from the nest by their parents a week ago, when Honey laid new eggs (they have been swapped with plastic). Parents are feeding them a lot less (mostly Coil does it), but I installed a food crate on top of the wardrobe and they started eating on their own. They still squeak at the parents for food. 

I think one of them is a girl, because Red tried to mate with it last week, when I took them down to clean the wardrobe top. He's been crazy trying constantly to get to the nest for the past 2 weeks, dancing and cooing at it. Coil is having none of that and punts him back to his balcony every time he catches him. 

All 4 of them - parents and chicks are very affectionate to each other, preening each other and its a joy to watch them. I've been watching them from work on a live camera I installed on top of the wardrobe. 

I'm probably going to give the boy to the same breeder I'm giving Red to, and keep the girl as a possible wife to Blue (if they like each other). 

Here's the babies today, I had them taken down from their place while I cleaned. They have started flapping their wings vigorously in the morning but did not fly yet. I had to pry Red away from the darker one, so I'm suspecting that's a girl. Coil was being protective with his babies while they were down on the bed, preening each one in turn.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/161dok.jpg
http://oi65.tinypic.com/1zn8s2o.jpg

Also, for some reason, Coil is lately pecking the carpet like its made of the tastiest stuff. Just pecks while backpedaling. Anything they like off synthetic carpets?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Red went off to a breeder 3 days ago. I wanted to find out how he is, yesterday (I kinda wanted every day but didn't want to be a pest), but the guy had his phone off, and I'm leaving the country tomorrow for 2 weeks. I hope he's alright. The breeder had 3 coops and put Red in the least populated one, where he had other younger pigeons. The pigeons did chase him around - which I guess he's used to, but when I left he was cooing and dancing on the floor. I just hope he won't run away (the breeder does open the coops to let the birds fly free). Letting him go was hard and I miss him, but I hope I did the right thing for him. He was obviously feeling caged in the balcony and Coil was attacking him constantly when he got out.

Meanwhile, I realized that the number of pigeons are less of a problem than the fact they don't get along with each other. Coil and the babies are spending most of their time together, and since Red is gone, I don't need to seal the balcony anymore - Blue rarely comes out, and Coil is less aggressive to him. My parents in law are visiting, and since my father in law is sick, I'm keeping the pigeons locked in a bedroom most of the time, so they took to Blue's balcony and seem to like spending time there. I'm glad Blue is getting some company, even if the trio seems to not accept others.

The babies flew the first time on monday, few hours one from the other.

I'm a bit in an issue with Coil, Honey and the babies though. The babies are very close to Coil, there's constant preening each other and generally being very affectionate to each other, and I saw Coil even doing the courting dance to them. However, they don't seem to feel the same towards Honey. They peck her and chase her and she seems afraid of them. She has a hard time getting to her nest when it's her turn, because if they are there, they try to chase her. As soon as Coil is out however, they are again all kisses and hugs. I went to check on them today at some point, and the 3 of them were in a close pile in a bit of sun, looking very content. I was quite glad, as it was actual sun, not through filtering glass. Later Coil went nesting and Honey came to the balcony, but she was staying at a bit of a distance, being very cautious.

I'm a bit puzzled about this behavior. Their closeness to Coil is heart-warming, but I don't want him to start mating with his own children. I concluded at least one of them is a female because Red tried to mate with her, but Coil preens both of them equally. The breeder I took Red to said they usually have a boy and a girl.

This is Honey and the babies (she is the one with the back to the camera, the sitting one is the one we think is a girl). They had occupied Blue's sleeping spot while he was caught behind the open window: http://oi63.tinypic.com/2yuhm2u.jpg

Here is Blue when I let him pass behind the window (it opens opposite his food crate) and he let everybody know that is his spot:
http://oi65.tinypic.com/2z4ahad.jpg

This is the one we think is a boy napping at noon on his mom's usual spot (she was trying to nap on a narrow perch nearby).
http://oi65.tinypic.com/15cygpz.jpg

Same time, the girl had taken Blue's sleeping spot, while Blue was having Red's old spot (I put him there, he can't get there alone):http://oi66.tinypic.com/1ako4.jpg
It was weird the siblings chose to spend some time apart.


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

Saphira said:


> @Ladygrey - do you keep homers?
> 
> Would you mind giving me some explanations on how they "work"?
> 
> ...


 For homers bought, young birds are let out only after they have been trained to a feed call, once let out that is the only control you have. Training is done first with a feed call every time they are fed, the feed is regimented in once or twice a day using a feed call, when they go to the feeder to eat directly after a feed call then the birds are put in a settling cage in front of a door to get in their loft, they are put in there to look around outside of the loft, but still secure within the settling cage, after about a half hour , the trap door to the loft is opened and then the feed call is given, that is repeated until they go in the trap door with out much hesitation and come to eat from the feed call. So next they are put out without the settling cage and after flying or just poking about outdoors, the keeper uses the feed call and hope they pigeon remember the routine and come in to eat. Offspring from feral pigeons can fly out and come back to find their place they call home. But as you know it is more dangerous living out there everyday. As with homing pigeons their flights are timed and they are not let everyday and are always shut in at night, so these birds live longer, because of predator protection in the loft.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

@Ladyhomer, wow, that is a pretty complicated procedure and I hope my Red considered that place home...

It's been a while since the last update. I was out of country with work for a couple of weeks, then pretty busy at work back home. Sadly, I did not manage to see Red again - I tried to call that breeder once but he had his phone closed, and since then I had no car to get there in the weekends with my husband being away with it. I now wonder if he would even be able to tell me anything about Red, I expect its kinda hard to tell one pigeon in 300, and Red was a very pretty pigeon, but completely lacking distinctive marks. I do hope he's alright and he found a wife, though I do wish I could have seen him.

I am now facing another problem. The plan was to get Blue a wife from Coil&Honey's babies, and give the same breeder the boy. Thing is, I seem to have gotten landed with a pair of Lannisters. It's starting to be clear which is what (and it's the other way around than we thought), as one of them recently started cooing and bowing, but they are inseparable. They sleep together, they stay together, they preen eachother, they eat together, and so on. They are closer to each other than I've ever seen even Honey and Coil. Splitting them apart and forcing the girl to a mate she didn't choose seems cruel. Blue is attempting to court her, but she just flies off, and since he can't follow, that is the end of it. 

Further more, they don't particularly get along with their parents. Honey is afraid of them, and they chase her away from food. Coil generally tolerates them, as long as they don't try to claim most higher places in the house. Particularly his and Honey's wardrobes are out of limits.

So, the question is - should I give them both away to that breeder, for a normal pigeon life, and try to find a crippled lady pigeon for Blue? Or maybe some breed that doesn't fly much, if there is such a thing? He's constantly calling for a wife, and I would like to see him happy.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Good news for today: since the breeder I had taken Red to wasn't answering his phone since, today I decided to just make a trip there. To my surprise, not only Red is still there, but he's now got a wife and babies. He was sitting on his 2 yellow fluffs. I was told that the first time they let him free, he flew towards the town where I live, but he returned in the evening. I am both happy and proud of him - that he knew how to return. I was shown his mate too, a very pretty lady that was sitting on the roof at the time.

This encourages me to take the baby pigeons there too - well, they are no longer babies. They are bullying their parents - first it was just Honey, but now they are chasing Coil too. They are not tame at all - their main interaction with me is coming to eat hemp - the boy eats hemp from the hand, the girl is more reluctant. They watch me a lot, but they won't stay to be caught. Unfortunately the plan of marrying the girl to Blue failed, she chose her brother, something I admit I'm uneasy with and wonder if it's gonna stay if they have more choices. I'm also wondering if they will stay at that breeder's place if they both attempt coming back. I wonder if Red had found a mate there when he was let free, and if that was a strong reason to return. I also considered just taking the boy and hoping the girl will accept Blue if she doesn't have another choice, but that feels mean.

I will miss them dearly, but they should be happier in a pigeon loft. They are strong and healthy compared to the feral babies I see outside.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Pretty sadface....

I took my baby pigeons to that breeder last week (on sunday), as he said he will be vaccinating his pigeons soon, and I wanted mine to catch that if they were to live with the flock.
He released them on Wednesday. The boy came back after 3 days, and was caged when I got there, but the girl didn't come back. He says he sees her in the morning and in the evening on the roofs and poles around the house, and she slept one night at a neighbor that also has pigeons, but she doesn't come down. I feel so sorry, because the only reason I gave her away too was because she was mated with her brother and I did not want to split them apart, but seems they didn't stay together anyway.


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