# another archangel question



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Follow up to the thread below about the toy stencils, and the sex linked blues. Bred the toy stencil for blue ice cockbird back to his daughter, a copper blue check. So far its like the one is either a toy stencil, or bronze blue check. It has black lacing with lighter colored, almost white bars on the wings. the other bird seems to be an off colored brownish blue, that only has a splash of bronze on the chest. Could these be sex linked like the blues? The toy stencil has brown colored markings on his wings. Will try to get pictures of the babies later on. They certainly are little pigs. Two weeks old, and already coming out of the nest to stalk the parents for food, and are also eating too. Also, can the little blue one be used in any breeding programs, even though he doesn't have the gimple color like he should? His coloring almost looks ice blue.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi,

Neither the stencil nor the ice genes are sex linked. It is difficult for me to say what could be going on, since I have not bred with these modifiers before. Pictures might help us to identify what the parents and the babies are.

It is likely that the toy stencil genes (there are three that have to be present) have not properly combined in the babies yet. That is why the stenciled youngster has brown markings. They might molt out to pure white or white with a bronze cast.

As to the brownish youngster. It could be anything really. I have no idea.

Again, I would never recommend using an off-colored bird in any breeding program, unless the bird definitely carries some genes that you need. The toy stencil youngster could be mated back to the father to produce even better stencil and ice (if it is a girl of course), the other brownish one should be used as a brooder only or sold as a pet / culled.

If I had unlimited space and funds, I would breed off every strange colored bird I come across, but as it stands, birds that won't give you offspring of the kind you want, should not be allowed to breed. I learned that the hard way, crossing ash-reds and indigo's and spreads and grizzles and dilutes and recessive reds unjudiciously and ending up with a lot of birds that no one wants, that I cannot reliably use in breeding and that I do not have the heart to cull. In short, ALWAYS breed with a plan!

Kind regards,
Rudolph


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Here is the stencil. I have a picture of the blue check in the other thread of mine. She has more bronze over the head now that sh eis an adult. The one baby does look like her when she was a a baby. But, it looks like it has ivory colored bars on the wings. Ill get pictures of the babies tonight. Wanted to wait till their color came in a little more. The copper black in the picture is the mom to the blue check. I was told her color is good. so i should have a chance at getting good colored checks, or even stencils, when I line breed back to her. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/a...nd-dove-colors-43791.html?highlight=archangel


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

looking at that again, the new babies feather markings are much darker then the check baby in the pictures. The other two are siblings the stencil/copper black produced. They turned out to be very dark copper colored after they molted. Saw them at a 4h show after I dold them. They looked really good.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok here are pics of the babies. This is the one that looks like a stencil or a blue check.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

This is the off blue colored one. 




























Remember these come out of a father daughter toy stencil/blue check breeding. Here is the momma.








\

dad/granddad is pictured in the link above.

Looking closely at moms wings, she does have a brown colored tint to some of her feathers.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It is not uncommon for archangel bronze to affect the wing shields too, though I do not think the mother in this case has any of that going on. It could be a result of the bronze that is part of the stenciling, or it could even just be the common though unexplained bronzing found in many blue birds.

As to the father, I assume he is the bronze stenciled bird in the linked post. He is not an archangel as far as I am concerned. He is neither smoky (he has a dark beak), nor dirty by the looks of these babies who have red / pink feet instead of black. It will be difficult to get the dark intense bronze of the archangel from back-crosses to him.

The check squab may or may not be stencil, it is hard to tell, since incomplete stenciling genes sometimes cause the stencil to only show at the first molt. I want to say that I doubt there will be any stenciling, but I could be wrong.

The blue squab could actually be brown or dilute or maybe even ice. He doesn't look to be off color to me. In birds with bronzing it is not uncommon for bars and checks to show some reddening of the feathers at he tip, which I definitely see here. It does not look to show any archangel bronzing (due to the mother being heterozygous). She passed her wild-type allele to this squab and not a gimple bronze one. He might still turn out to be stenciled, since we cannot see his bars yet.

If I were you, I would leave this pair together another few rounds if I could, chances are about 1/8 (or 12.5%) you might get some bronze stenciled (mahogany or Ts1 or Modena bronze) youngsters with archangel bronzing.

Good luck,
Rudolph


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks  What do you mean that you don't consider the father to be an archangel, is it because he lacks the bronze. 

So your saying I should hang onto the blue baby for awhile even though he lacks the bronze right. It almost looks like the color looks like the dads, minus the stenciling. if any of the blue babies turn out to be ice, like you mentioned, would they be useful to use in a blue breeding program where the parent has decent gimple color? I was wondering if it would be a good cross to my pales and dilutes. I think he might be ice too, but i am still trying to figure out all these colors.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

& yeah looking at the blu baby again he does kind of resemble my blue bar house pigeons. They looked like that, only a shade darker when they were babies.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

chinbunny said:


> Thanks  What do you mean that you don't consider the father to be an archangel, is it because he lacks the bronze.


That is quite correct. The defining feature of the gimpel (or archangel) breed is the bronze (called copper or gold in pales). I think the standards of the American Archangel Club will allow almost any color but the defining factor for a good Archangel is the bronze and the extreme iridescence. The standard does allow for stencil wing, but the bronze still needs to be present, otherwise it isn't an archangel. 

The bronze / gold on a good specimen should extend all over the head, breast rump and down the legs. It is easy to breed the bronze into other breeds, I have two very pretty crossbreeds myself, but it is difficult to have the bronze extend all the way to the vent of the birds.



chinbunny said:


> So your saying I should hang onto the blue baby for awhile even though he lacks the bronze right. It almost looks like the color looks like the dads, minus the stenciling.


When working with stencil, yes, it is always a good idea to hold on to the offspring (backcrosses) until the first moult, since the stenciling might only appear then. 

I am not sure whether the dad actually is ice, since ice is very hard to discern on birds that are not also dirty, which the dad probably isn't. To breed good ice pigeons, dirty (also called verdunkel) is the secret. Good ice and Damascene pigeons have black down-feathers instead of the grey / white you would see on most other pigeons. To breed good ice, you will have to be sure to breed towards the darkest down-feathers. 



chinbunny said:


> if any of the blue babies turn out to be ice, like you mentioned, would they be useful to use in a blue breeding program where the parent has decent gimple color? I was wondering if it would be a good cross to my pales and dilutes. I think he might be ice too, but i am still trying to figure out all these colors.


I would say no, do not use this bird in the breeding program unless it is a stencil. Do not use birds that do not have the archangel bronze in an archangel breeding program. 

Think of it this way, your breeding program is to bring stencil into the gimpels, why would you want to breed the gimpel out of them?

Here is a picture of what good stencil looks like on a blue bar pigeon (note this bird is also sooty, which causes black flecks on the wing shields. It is not CHECK!)








This is what you want to work towards, while keeping the archangel bronze.

Here is a picture of what ice is supposed to look like, keep it in mind when breeding ice pigeons. They should really have very dark down feathers and extremely lightened body feathers. With only spread areas being dark:









Ice is a difficult gene to pin down, even more difficult than stencil I would say. I have never had the guts to breed with either though. I'm sticking to the easy stuff (blue, brown, ash-red, indigo, grizzle) until I have more confidence.

Kind regards,
Rudolph


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like Modena bronze to me. And probably more likely. Or is stencil already in archangels?


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

I got him from someone off the old eggbid.com. (which is back up and running btw). They said he was a toy stencil for blue icing. Thanks mary.

Ok since I will have two stencil lines going that are related, would it it be wise to eventually cross them esp if the father daughter breeding throws a bird with good colored stencil on the wings, even if there is a chance they won't have the gimple? I realize breeding father to daughter like that will reduces the chances of getting the bronze, however, I would like to work at getting a color silimar to his, and intensifying the bronze. I think that would be pretty to see on a copper. Or, shoul di get another good black wing hen to pair him with since breeding to blacks throws the blue checks, then use something from that breeding to get a stencil?


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

what is modena bronze supposed to look like? Got any pictures? Are talking about the hen or babies?


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Never mind i found what it looks like. My cockbird looks like the blue check stencil winged modena in this thread. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/types-of-bronze-48660.html

According to the standard that color, along with the checks are listed as toy stencil wings?


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

*Modena Bronze and Toy Stencil*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Looks like Modena bronze to me. And probably more likely. Or is stencil already in archangels?


You are right Mary, it is Modena bronze, but it is widely accepted that Modena bronze (or at least one of the genes that cause Modena bronze) is the same as Ts1, a dominant factor that is part of the complex of genes necessary to produce pure white stenciling as seen in the German color (or German toy) pigeons. I assume it would be more likely that archangels were crossed with other German color pigeons than crossing them with Modenas. Since the toys all have similar (field-pigeon) body type.

Richard Cryberg showed that a good Modena bronze requires this factor as well as two others, but as far as I know he never tested whether this Modena bronze differs from TS1 as was attested by earlier studies. This means I must assume that Cryberg's Maa is what used to be called Ts1 (by Paul Gibson if I recall). 

According to correspondence, mating toy stencil to wild-type gives offspring with a bronze stenciling that looks the same as (or at least similar to) 'unimproved' Modena bronze, as does the cock in question. 

Since the standard of the American Archangel club includes stencil, I assume that there are already stenciled archangels somewhere. I have also seen T-pattern, toy stencil, gimpel bronze blue homers on a German website. But cannot for the life of me find it again today.

Please note that the information here is purely theoretical from my perspective and that I could be VERY wrong. 

Kind regards,
Rudolph


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

I think I have seen some stencils listed on vivagirls website. They are marked much differently then my bird though. I think that blue color stencil would be pretty on an archangel. From talking to another breeder I bought my other cockbird from(the intense dark blue copper that throws the dilutes and pales), toy stencil in archangels is a very rare color. That is the reason I bought him cause I liked the color. I didn't buy the stencil wing, or modena bronze or whatever he is supposed to be called from the same breeder. So next question is he is a toy stencil, and a modena bronze, according to the standard right? And the check hen is also a toy stencil? Didn't realize that pigeon genetics could be worse then rabbit genetics.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

bumping up


----------



## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

chinbunny, I think, unfortunately, that you will find it very difficult "making" toy stencil i.e. white chequered, Gimpels with the birds you are using. As previously stated, your chequered bird appears to be ts1, therefore you will need to import ts2 and ts3 to produce a white phenotype. For the ideal toy stencil expression these three genes will need to be present as homozygotes. 
The young from your ts1 bird look as if they have no ts1 factors, and I doubt there will be a significant increase in bronzing after the first moult; some ts combinations will alter after the first moult, some bronzes will moult white, others pinkish-bronze, there is a lot of variation dependant on the ts combination present.
Neither do your birds appear to be ice; F1 and subsequent generations show variable degrees of "icing" and your birds have lost any discernable ice factors which would make it very difficult to recover the ice phenotype.
My suggestions would be to breed your copper blackwing Gimpel with a white-barred/chequered breed of similar type, and inbreed closely to regain the necessary combinations of toy stencil and Gimpel bronze genes.
It is an ambitious breeding project but the end result would be worth the effort.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I'm not so sure I am that keen on the crossing like that. I'm afraid id end up with something I don't want somewhere down the road. I think I am going to wait, work with what I have for now,and see if viva girl has any stencil wings, she'd be willing to sell. i think I did see a couple on her website. thank you for the rest of the information though. 

One question,you didn't comment on the cock, who is supposed to be a toy stencil. His picture is under the one link I provided/ What ts would he be? That is the color id like to eventually work for in my flock.


----------



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Thought id update.the blue bird is getting bars on its wings.The check is showing some modena bronze on some of the flight feathers


----------

