# Amnmonia Fogging?



## Angelika (Nov 22, 2002)

Dear Pigeon friends,

Can anyone of you let me know how dangerous ammonia fogging can be to pigeons that have made their home unofficially in the attic of a city condo building? 
The "pigeon problem" persists in my condo building for five years. Pigeons have been nesting right above my condo for just that time. Birds, and especially baby pigeons have kept falling from the attic space in between the dry walls of my condo. I have in the entire period tried to save those falling birds by retrieving them through holes I made in my condo walls. In the course of this "malaise" I came to love pigeons more than any other animal species I had known before (I decidedly am an animal lover, but these birds are so incredibly friendly, extraordianrily intelligent, and simply special, special, special). 
Well,I usually returned the birds that I saved from a miserable death between my walls to freedom by putting them out on my balcony. But many of them were still babies, unable to stake their lives out on that balcony, even though their parents often returned to feed them there. Sooo, I ended up raising and adopting five baby pigeons during the last year. These are now my most treasured pets. 
I have to admit that, as I became more and more infatuated with these gentle birds, I put out seeds on my balcony to feed them. I stopped doing so when I realized that the feeding was only going to aggravate the problem.
At any rate, my home association preferred to ignore the problem of pigeons nesting in the building's attic/crawl space as long as it concerned only me. My attempts to have the open vents sealed, through which the birds entered the space, were continously thwarted as too expensive. 
In the meantime, however, pijjies have multiplied up there,and now people in the house think of having an exterminator to take care of the problem. 
I do think that the unofficial pigeon loft in the attic/crawl space of our house needs resolution, and I am trying to get a company approved by the association to seal the open vents through which the pijjies enter the space. Now, however,people in the house seem to set their minds more and more on "extermination," and the last suggestion that has come up is "ammonia fogging." It has been said that that ammonia fogging will not kill the birds but only deter them from returning to the space. Is this true? And what about the baby pigeons that will be up there in their nests during the procedure, even if all grown-up pigeons might be outat the time?

Please, help me with your knowledge and suggestions.

Angelika


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Ok, you have learned and violated the first and Primary Directive of loving wilders: "From your well intentioned actions, don't cause the death of several pigeons." 

If those birds are destroyed it will be on your copybook. I'm not guilt tripping you, it's just not a place to make mistakes. So for example, if you don't have a people proof set up, don't feed them routinely.

Ammonia will kill bacteria and it will kill pigeons, it depends on the concentration. Sure there is a concentration that will not kill birds and maybe it will deter them, but I think they are liars and will kill the birds if they can. Also, the birds will come back and the jackasses will say, "we tried to do this humanely (we are noble and decent), but the birds keep coming back, so of course it is our god given right to kill every last one of them.

Now that the profile is so high, you need to save the situation by ceasing to feed the pigeons completely, cold turkey - finito. Tell the birds they need to leave as well - tell them why. If there is a park or other safe ground nearby, you can "walk" your birds away from the apartments by getting their attention and moving the feeding spot down the street - a little each day. This is easier if you feed them early before people and cars can cock the deal. It's also easier if you have more birds - 10 will take more time; 50 will move to you far each day.

Concurrently, seal off all the cozy, dark nesting grounds the birds cherish - just a few pieces of chiken wire over the entrance points. And concurrently tell the association that the birds will be gone within two weeks (should be a lot less). It's time to save your ass and the cloacas of your best pals. good luck.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Angelika,

This is an appalling situation for you and my heart goes out to you! Personally I can't see that it is of your making, pigeons will roos and nest in attics if they have access to them regardless of whether there is a food source there. I have a similar situation brewing with some derelict buildings opposite my office that are full of pigeons and scheduled for redevelopment. 

Do you have the authority or means to access the loft, rescue any squabs and put up temporary barriers to prevent the pigeons returning?

You really need help and support, because this one is quite hard to fight on your own if they haven't been prepared to listen to you in the past. Are there animal welfare groups that could help you fight? 

Please contact PICAS (Pigeon Control Advisory Service) urgently for advice on how similar situations have been resolved http://www.wingsoverus.org/pigeon/ and any local animal activist groups that will back you.

If you need us to write or e-mail anyone urging them to take the humane approach then please let us have an address.

If someone can take on any dependent squabs then there are no benefits at all to extermination...it would just be a matter of cruelty over compassion.









Cynthia


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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_

[This message has been edited by cyro51 (edited June 03, 2004).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Angelika,
Unfortunately, & innocently, pigeons have a way of putting themselves in an undesirable situation by nesting in little 'nooks & crannies' that they feel are safe havens & in reality some are not. 

You certainly did not create the situation nor have you exasperated it, on the contrary, you have attempted to resolve it.

I pray none of the pigeons meet an early demise because of where THEY decided to nest, however, if it should happen, you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. 

Please keep us posted.
Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Dano,
I'm a bit confused. Could you explain the following statements you made?

"Ok, you have learned and 'violated' the first and Primary Directive of loving wilders: "From your well intentioned actions, don't cause the death of several pigeons." 


"If those birds are destroyed it will be on your copybook." I'm not guilt tripping you, "it's just not a place to make mistakes. So for example, if you don't have a people proof set up, don't feed them routinely."


"Now that the profile is so high, you need to save the situation by ceasing to feed the pigeons completely, cold turkey - finito."

Angelika stated the feeding had ceased.

"Concurrently, seal off all the cozy, dark nesting grounds the birds cherish - just a few pieces of chiken wire over the entrance points."

Prior to sealing off any area that pigeons have been residing in, assurance needs to be made that ALL the birds are out of the area which is going to be sealed. Checking the 'loft' or 'attic' area of the condo may take a bit of manuevering as it can't be assumed the area is empty.

"It's time to save your ass"

What was the point of saying that?
Cindy


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## Angelika (Nov 22, 2002)

Dear Pigeon Friends,

Thank you very much for all of your replies. Let me try to confirm the most important point first. Do I understand it correctly that ammonia fogging will kill the birds? 

Secondly, if the association is going ahead with the extermination plans (and according to the emails I just found returning home, that is precisely what most association members plan to do), how save will my adopted pet pigeons be, considering that there are plenty of crevices through which the ammonia fogg can enter my condo unit?

Thirdly, does any one know what the legal situation is concerning the killing of birds? I will certainly try to get animal rights groups involved, and I am extremely grateful for the connections I got from you.

Point number four concerns Dano's reproachments. As I wrote, I did end feeding the pigeons nesting in the crawl space and elsewhere around our and neighboring buildings about six months ago--cold turkey and all. I also have tried to urge the association to have the open vents in our building closed. I have been negotiating about this point for five years and pressed on it very seriously beginning from last summer, the time when five pigeon babies fell in between my condo walls, whom I then adopted. I have made several holes into my condo walls, most of them to simply save save pigeons . Since there was no other way to get to the crevices through which the birds fell in between my walls, I have made one big hole into what seemed a strategically important position through my ceiling. I crawled up into the "attic" and closed one of the gaps. This was seven months ago, when the president of the association turned a deaf ear on my request and suggested precisely that I "fix" the problem myself. The space is very low and cramped, because of all the heating and air conditioning pipes running through there. Still, my operation helped to a considerable degree. I could not reach all the crevices, however, and I was unable to seal the open vents to the outside, because most of them were far beyond my reach, and even those which were not I could not possibly seal while pigeons were still inside the space as a whole. 

Now, pigeons are no longer flogging in for being fed by me, but pigeons are still up in the "attic" space. Some obviously also fell between walls through crevices that I was unable to discover, reach, and seal. I know this because of the smell of death that I could realize in such cases. Apparently, this smell also bothered my next door neighbors more recently. These neighbors are living next door to me on the same floor. Pigeons must also have been falling through crevices between the "attic" and their walls. But there is no possible way for me to get there. I have tried it without success, and I doubt that any other human will be more successful--most likely nobody will ever make the attempt to do so.

Well, what should I say. There probably is no defense and I will have to write the pigeons' death into my copy book if the worst comes to the worst. But perhaps we should try to figure out more clearly how we as animal lovers should and could deal in more responsible ways with what we would call urban wildlife--and what many others apparently simply call pests, or in this particular case "flying rats."

Thank you once more for all your help.

Angelika


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Angelika,

I'm sorry you are faced with such a horrible situation. Anyone here can relate to your anguish and we know the value of your care and devotion for these noble creatures.

Pigeons are going to nest wherever they can find a place. The responsible thing for everyone involved is to seal all the openings, after all the pigeons are free and babies are out. Fogging or no fogging the birds will be back. The open spaces should have been closed and secured for all wildlife, all birds, when the building was built. 

Yes, I'm sure the ammonia fogging is going to hurt the birds, as pigeons have very sensitive respiratory systems.

You need to alert all the sympathetic people you can find, animal rights, pigeon rehabbers,avian vets., anyone who cares about pigeons, like us. Get a local TV news reporter, a newspaper, anyone who will listen to you and educate them on what is going on. Find someone who can stir up an embarrasing mess for those making this horrific decision. Educate everyone about how they want to take the cheap way out, which will kill innocent wildlife, creatures of God. create a big stink!!!

Can you get lots of people involved? can we e-mail anyone or help in some way?

Treesa


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Angelika,
You are truly faced with a most horrific situation.

Your efforts to rescue & save these innocent pigeons as well as your continued attempts to resolve the situation in the most humane manner possible is certainly worthy of 'positive' recognition. 

As for the Ammonia fogging: I have never heard of doing this, however, it would seem to me ammonia inhalation in any form would be creating a health hazard. 
The method in which the association plans to 'deal' with the situation is not only inhumane, it's putting anyone that comes in contact with the ammonia at risk of creating health issues. 
If this were me, I would contact the local health department & explain the situation. 

Please do keep us posted.
Cindy


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Well, I certainly came on too strong toward someone as true blue to pigeons as Angelika, especially considering her efforts to save the nesting birds.

My response comes from my own experience with wilders. I accumulated a largish flock and one day I realized at certain point, at certain number of birds, you attract the attention from humans. I realized that one wacko could poison all my birds. And whose fault would that be? Mine of course. The road to hell is paved with the best intentions (I know that is my destination lol). So Angelika inadvertantly created a number of birds flying around the apartments and this is a much worse image for the birds than than some invisible egg sitters.

I hadn't noticed she said the feedings had ceased - my oversight.

Right, the solution for the nesting is simple - you close the holes at the outside. These heroics with the walls are laudible but technically dubious. It might require a long ladder or a downrope but it's no big deal to close up the holes. The problem is getting all the birds out, which could be done with some non-lethal irritant - dilute smoke perhaps, but the birds may have eggs which is OK since we all routinely eliminate eggs, but you would have to find a time when there are no chicks. This is probably an imposibility so the only solution is to close the holes after the breeding seasn. Unfortunately the situation has escallated and we have to rely on the good graces of the landowners. So the best shot would be Treesa's PR program to rally local support to buy time until late July or August.

I compliment Angelika's non-defensive response and her efforts in general. Her personal birds are considered legal pet birds, as good as a Blue and Gold Macaw by most statutes. And Angelika can still adopt a flock close by.


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