# How many?



## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

So I am in a quandary. This is year one racing. All new set up for us (still in the works) and no real expectation of good results. What I am afraid of is being too timid during breeding.

Based on the YB losses last year (most guys lost 75% with several losing 100%) I am not sure that a 40 bird YB team will be enough. I have the space. I have the "resources" (in terms of $$ and time), but do I really have the ability to race that many birds? 

How many YB would you guys advise a new racer to start with?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't think it is the amount but perhaps the quality of the birds..and your breeding program.. there was an article about that somewhere, a man I think is scotland..was a front winner there and he had the smallest loft.. hope someone remembers it and perhaps can post it..it was very interesting.


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## klondike goldie (Apr 20, 2009)

If you are just starting out, I would breed as many young birds as possible without over crowding. Keep them healthy, train them out 25 or 30 miles, then slowly take them on out. If you end up with a lot of birds, you don't have to fly them all every week.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> So I am in a quandary. This is year one racing. All new set up for us (still in the works) and no real expectation of good results. What I am afraid of is being too timid during breeding.
> 
> Based on the YB losses last year (most guys lost 75% with several losing 100%) I am not sure that a 40 bird YB team will be enough. I have the space. I have the "resources" (in terms of $$ and time), but do I really have the ability to race that many birds?
> 
> How many YB would you guys advise a new racer to start with?



WoW.
I am a newb at this and I didn't lose more than 2 birds this whole year.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

JAYSEN.....Question #1.... I have to ask you is....Are you going to race the birds as OLD BIRDS in 2012 ?? Question #2....Is there a shipping limit in the club your joining ??
How many birds you should breed depends on those two answers.....In my club/combine,we have a 30 bird shipping limit.....This year,just like the year before,I started with a 20 bird YB team....After the season was over,I had 15 YB`s in their section....I lost 5 birds !!!!!!!
I don`t win alot of races,but my birds are usally competitive....I don`t lose many birds because of quality and HEALTH !!....If the birds are healthy,you will not lose many...They might come home later that day(race day),or the next morning,but they come home....It is more important to breed good healthy pigeons...I can`t overstate this to you how important health is when breeding.....Alot of NEW flyers,and even some that have been flying for many years in my combine,lose alot of their birds in TRAINING before the races...This is NOT a QUALITY issue with the birds...It`s a HEALTH issue !!!.......Alamo


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I usually end up with a 60 bird YB team, and have about 40 left to race. Then when actual racing starts, then they really thin out. I'm not flying young birds anymore because it is rediculous. We keep changing course and doing stupid things that in my opinion, are not being fair to the birds. Like releasing them based on sunrise HERE when it is still dark at the release point. Or going by the weather HERE and not where they'll start at. So the first race they may get 2 minutes of light to drink before being set loose, and then flying into a large fog bank, when all is well here, 100+ miles away.
Anyways, that ends my rant 


If you have a good training program, healthy birds, and good birds genetically (and a combine with common sense that isn't spread from SC to VA  ), then 40 birds should be plenty. Some of the old guys here may only breed 30 birds and have 26 by the time racing starts. Other guys breed 100-200+ birds and still lose a butt load of them. So it varies for everyone.

Personally, I don't get to train enough. We do the best we can but gas is expensive. And since I go to school and dad works, we only get to train twice a week after school is in - saturdays and sundays. I'll be graduated soon so maybe we can do better. This past year we started training with other guys in the club every week, which I think was a very good idea. That is something I definitely suggest for you. It'll teach your birds to break away rather than follow, even if they are only flying with birds from a couple other lofts. It can only help


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you can raise 100 birds. Train the birds out select the best performers And reduce the team down to 25 to 35 Then finish up the training for the races. You are able to select the best from 100 To have for the races. While raising say just 35 birds You must know You have a much smaller pool to pick from for racing. You figure 100 birds 20 percent will be the best for your racing And from that it goes down hill fast. If you keep every bird that came home from training You may have a large percent then You will see more birds lost. But when you reduced to those lesser numbers The birds 1 had more loft room Had more one on e with your program. You had more notice on how they performed deveopled And such. Those birds in the races even though some would still be lost Would still be that cream of the crop. Years ago I used to raise 35 young But you flew what was left over from training Less birds BUT less selection. So wasted time and training on the birds. I do know 1 person who raise only 5 to 6 birds for racing he will raise about 20 but reduce down to about 5 or 6 ONLY because he lives in a rather refine neighborhood and does not want neighbors complaining, He winds up with about 1 or 2 birds at the end of a race season.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

I am new at this game too, this next year will be the second year racing.

I plan to raise about 100 birds and train them hard. I figure that the training basket will cull what do not perform as needed for the races. Time will tell, but that is what I have been told. Let the training basket do the work for you

Just my thoughts, maybe someone can state more on this


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Here's the deal on the losses.

1. We are on a BOP migratory line. Although I only had one hit (who is recovering) other are getting hit pretty bad.

2. We race late in the year (refer to #1). We are working on changing this.

3. The high losses this year seem to be pretty global. Ad Schaerlaecken noticed the high YB losses and made some interesting observations that I have been able to confirm. So I don't think that these losses are particularly bad. 

Note that this is YB loss, not OB loss. OB loss this year was pretty low for the club (3%). 

Some direct answers. I have 2 YB sections each at 8x8. Since we are racing we are looking a a slightly tighter capacity but I am unwilling to go over 60/section. Sections are split into nest and perch. Intention was to do cocks in nest and hens in perch. OB will move out if space is an issue in year 1. 

These birds WILL be the '11 race team YB team and '12 OB team. I will not race '11 OB as I don't have birds I feel like losing. The OB team for '11 will be used for stock and potentially raced in '12. 

There are 6 pair prisoners in Jail. There are 9 pair OB in Castle (or will be if I ever get it done). Current plan is 3 rounds (there are a few pair that we may not take more than 1 round from though). I do have a few options for hens (we are cock heavy) that can take us up to 12 pair in OB (although I would have to move these pair to Jail now that I think about it). They will be here by pair up if we go with them. 

As to shipping limits... last year was 30. I expect this year will be the same. I am of the impression that shipping the limit didn't make a whole lot of difference in the standings this year. The high performers did ship limits when they were confident in their teams, but shipped well short of the limit other times. 

Personally I would rather be the "small loft that wins" but i am the first to admit that I don't know much about what I am doing when it comes to bird selection, training and even race conditioning. So I am reluctant to breed a ton of birds knowing that I am going to kill them through bad decision making (my personal view of my responsibility to my pets). 

But if I really need 100 birds for a decent YB team in my first years I will give it a go.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Alamo,

Almost all the losses were at race time. Very few birds were lost in training. The birds I lost (50%) were due to my stupid mistakes. I don't disagree that there could be a health issue with the local population, but several ... better off? ... individuals had all kinds of test done on birds. Everything comes back clean. The all the birds that were used for tests were later lost in races. It is just odd.

That said we are working on our health program now. Latest rounds of testing show us as clean. We have been focusing on bird prep for breeding, but have been reluctant to medicate if there is nothing wrong. Biology kind of stipulates that survival rates in bacteria and virus populations that are unnecessarily treated will lead to resistant strains. 

Thanks for the advice.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

This year was horrible for everyone in our combine. I've heard the same thing from many others. It may have been because of the bigger/more frequent solar flares.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Folks....on this site...do not talk about breeding 100 birds,and trimming down to 35....There are certain org`s who visit here to see what we are writing about...As for breeding 100 yb`s,if you want to see which ones are VG and which ones are not.....1st toss at 40 miles will take care of that real quick...Please don`t blast me on my next paragraph after you read it....

I would bet my butt,after I go into any loft,in which the owner DOES NOT SELL PIGEONS,that after the owner shows me his top 6 or 7 pair of breeders,anything after that is just taking up space in the loft....I would rather have 30 YB`s from any one`s loft, who is on this site from his or hers top 6 pair of breeders....I beleive I could win and be very competitive with those 30 birds....There is no need to breed 100 yb`s,if you KNOW what pairs of yours are the BEST BREEDERS...Use the other pairs as pumpers..Switch the eggs to them,and let them raise the YB`s from you top 6 pairs.....If you are a new guy/gal,then you will have to breed from 15 pairs,or more,so you can locate the best 6 to 8 pairs.....Alamo


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

These birds WILL be the '11 race team YB team and '12 OB team. I will not race '11 OB as I don't have birds I feel like losing. The OB team for '11 will be used for stock and potentially raced in '12. 

Jaysen if your not sure they can make it through the race season why would you breed from them? Unless you buy proven breeders, the only thing you should breed from are proven racers. JMO
Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Alamo said:


> Folks....on this site...do not talk about breeding 100 birds,and trimming down to 35....There are certain org`s who visit here to see what we are writing about...As for breeding 100 yb`s,if you want to see which ones are VG and which ones are not.....1st toss at 40 miles will take care of that real quick...Please don`t blast me on my next paragraph after you read it....
> 
> I would bet my butt,after I go into any loft,in which the owner DOES NOT SELL PIGEONS,that after the owner shows me his top 6 or 7 pair of breeders,anything after that is just taking up space in the loft....I would rather have 30 YB`s from any one`s loft, who is on this site from his or hers top 6 pair of breeders....I beleive I could win and be very competitive with those 30 birds....There is no need to breed 100 yb`s,if you KNOW what pairs of yours are the BEST BREEDERS...Use the other pairs as pumpers..Switch the eggs to them,and let them raise the YB`s from you top 6 pairs.....If you are a new guy/gal,then you will have to breed from 15 pairs,or more,so you can locate the best 6 to 8 pairs.....Alamo


Not blasting you. But No one can move forward with out selection. 100 young more selection. You do not have to kill any birds. Just remove them from your program. Give them away. No reason to breed say 35 and hope 35 will make the team. Its like people take 100 person trying out for a track meet. THAT have never ran before. How many can make the team. The basket YES tells you about the birds. BUT not just the ones lost It tells you what birds show the best perfomance times. With 35 if you reduced down to only the top 20 ,25 percent you would have what less then 10 birds. Which is fine. But its choice. Even when I used to show Birds I did the same Some years I was lucky to just keep 1 bird As quality was the need. But allways manged to have thosae useful birds To make the 20 to 25 percent number range. Gave plenty of birds away. Its the same with anybodys old bird team. Rule is 3 years building an old bird team. then replace as needed on performance. Often people push and push there birds And keep every left over Can not move forwad doing that Just keeping birds that make numbers. Sure in the begining you need to keep the so so birds Just to race How many new comers get to breed for 2 to 3 years and train and select for those 2 to 3 years Before they race? most clubs push you to race your first year. It takes years to improve your methods and your birds. Push them hard they may not work. train them and select them you move forward have less but better birds. AND there are some top breeders who remove birds peoples mouth would watere for. but in there loft the bird just did not fit. AND remember removing does not mean killing. But each person does have there idea Question is can they make it work Time only tells Its not the race it how you bred. how you trained and how you selected. the race is just a test of youyr skills and methods. Kind the cream that tells you what YOU need to do. I would rathere see and visit a top breeder learn from them Then ever win any race or show. Because you will win if you learned. Most people on the top took over 20 years to reach there goal. And from there there work only got harder because everyone is reaching toward that same goal. The art of breeding is the Key to winning.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Crazy Pete,

We have a 50/50 split on proven birds vs. never raced birds (we flew them this summer). Several of the prisoners have quite good race records (one has about $20K in winnings to his credit). Several others are older but have produced winners. Of the never raced birds 3 are direct from pairs that have produced multiple combine winners of both sexes. Of the remaining birds there are only a handful that I would hesitate to put in a race (meaning that they may not make it home). The statement was that I am unwilling to lose any of the few birds I have at this time. In '12 all the non-prisoners will be shipped except 3 that we just don't want to risk feeding to a hawk. 

I'm of the opinion that a great loft would only have winning birds. And a limited number of them. But until you learn how to tell a winner from a fun to own from a waste of feed (there is a story behind that) how do you start? 

From what you said I should probably "go big" and learn from the race results. I should also train a bit harder (more like real races) and let training show me who the good birds are and the YB season show me if I have any great ones. 

All,

As to the idea of culling… My view has changed quite a bit. Nature has not succeeded in her lethal method. Yet. I won't be helping her along. While the basket will make some decisions for us, I think we want to avoid letting it make too many decisions on our behalf. While "just birds" may be a real idea, we do have a responsibility to breed wisely. Minimizing losses to bad homing (training/genetics), health, or anything that is not a predator (meaning something ate your bird) should be a priority. Otherwise we invite criticism. 

Alamo, I am with your plan. Just need to find my pairs. So as I said earlier, bigger to start, smaller as we figure all this out.

MaryOfExeter, I have been working on some "theories" but don't as much data as I would like. The largest losses here are with birds that are not super tight line bred, but aren't all that diverse (crossed from two loft lines). I am wondering if there has been a move back to too much line breeding. Since I am about 100% crossed for '11 and '12 I will be able to rule that out. I may have bad genetics and worse management skills working against me though


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well it sounds likee you have a plan and a good one at that, go for it.
Dave


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> I don't think it is the amount but perhaps the quality of the birds..and your breeding program.. there was an article about that somewhere, a man I think is scotland..was a front winner there and he had the smallest loft.. hope someone remembers it and perhaps can post it..it was very interesting.


http://www.articles.racing-pigeon-post.org/Smallest_loft.html 

I wouldn't say he is a "front winner". He holds his own on the very select view long distance races he enters and his birds seem to have very strong homing instincts making them good tough/long distance racers. Hard to compare his results on a couple races a year to the American fliers race season where you typically fly most of the races and need a team capable of doing so.


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## BCrUS (Oct 7, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> WoW.
> I am a newb at this and I didn't lose more than 2 birds this whole year.


If you didn't lose more than two.. Then have you raced in a club or any race at all? If so whats your loft name? From reading your posts. I don't believe you have. If you have, please link me to your results. I'm very interested in seeing if your words have weight to them. A lot of people come here for sound(quality) advice. I don't wanna read your post or waste my time posting on here if you don't have any knowledge/experience to answer what was asked or know what your talking about. You don't have the experience to be answering these questions. Leave it to the guys who has experience and can answer these answers about their personal experience racing their birds. Those people's answers have weight. I don't think your qualified to answer this question. He's asking people who has had more or same amount of experience then him. You don't have any at all. It's like asking a little baby, should I buy the Mercedes C300 or the Ford Pinto. The baby don't know the difference. Your that baby in this case. You haven't even raced competitively at all.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Jaysen said:


> Here's the deal on the losses.
> 
> The high losses this year seem to be pretty global. Ad Schaerlaecken noticed the high YB losses and made some interesting observations that I have been able to confirm. So I don't think that these losses are particularly bad.


Hey, a lot of losses Upstate here this year most of the guys in the club lost about way more then the occasion 1 or 2. As for me next year will be my first year the guys will be giving me my birds for free, but I do not plan taking in anymore then 24, then split them into hen and cock teams. My take on it, even if I have 12 birds left, why take in like 50 birds what good is that really going to do me more work, more money, more things that aren't necessary. 
Its going to be tough saying this but everyone is offering me young birds left and right in reality I only plan on taking birds in from only about 2-3 guys in the club, some might be upset, but thats just how the cookie crumbles.

Big Sho


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

This is one of those questions where you are the only one that probably can know the answers. If your club members are experiencing massive losses it may be possible that you may experience the same. It may be possible that certain places losses more birds. And we still don't know why birds get lost. To compensate for that you will either breed more birds or breed good birds(selective breeding). But we wont know how good they are if we don't race, don't we? It is like a circular argument.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

bcrus;
I never said hey, bcrus, kiss my ass and read my ****s. 
If you don't want to read my posts then don't.
Who forced your tiny eyes to read them. 
Only proves that you want to read them because I surely didn't make you read it. 
So by what you said you are the master in racing pigeons of the world?
I guess not because you just woke to read my nonsenses. 

"I don't believe you have." 
I never said any one had to believe me.
You just wanted to retard yourself by believing me.

"I don't wanna read your post or waste my time posting on here if you don't have any"--
This only proves that you have no life and are wasting your time writing this post. HA.

"Leave it to the guys who has experience and can answer these answers about their personal experience racing their birds."
so by this statement you won every race out there to win?
O yea, and I just won a billion dollar lotto.

"A lot of people come here for sound(quality) advice"
I am pretty sure that no one here knows everything. If you want to know absolute answers than you should go ask ganus or 
cbs. Or yourself because you know everything. And if you knew everything then you should not even be here replying to a kid. 

Oh man, I hope you are proud of yourself for being tough. Go and pat yourself on the back and brag about all your loses to your birds.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

BCrUS said:


> If you didn't lose more than two.. Then have you raced in a club or any race at all? If so whats your loft name? From reading your posts. I don't believe you have. If you have, please link me to your results. I'm very interested in seeing if your words have weight to them. A lot of people come here for sound(quality) advice. I don't wanna read your post or waste my time posting on here if you don't have any knowledge/experience to answer what was asked or know what your talking about. You don't have the experience to be answering these questions. Leave it to the guys who has experience and can answer these answers about their personal experience racing their birds. Those people's answers have weight. I don't think your qualified to answer this question. He's asking people who has had more or same amount of experience then him. You don't have any at all. It's like asking a little baby, should I buy the Mercedes C300 or the Ford Pinto. The baby don't know the difference. Your that baby in this case. You haven't even raced competitively at all.




Does sky-tex have an alias
Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

BCrUS said:


> If you didn't lose more than two.. Then have you raced in a club or any race at all? If so whats your loft name? From reading your posts. I don't believe you have. If you have, please link me to your results. I'm very interested in seeing if your words have weight to them. A lot of people come here for sound(quality) advice. I don't wanna read your post or waste my time posting on here if you don't have any knowledge/experience to answer what was asked or know what your talking about. You don't have the experience to be answering these questions. Leave it to the guys who has experience and can answer these answers about their personal experience racing their birds. Those people's answers have weight. I don't think your qualified to answer this question. He's asking people who has had more or same amount of experience then him. You don't have any at all. *It's like asking a little baby, should I buy the Mercedes C300 or the Ford Pinto. The baby don't know the difference.* Your that baby in this case. You haven't even raced competitively at all.


Take it easy man! All comments should be welcome. We may never know that someday these people that we bash may end up to be super-competitor in the future.

With respect to the baby thing. The baby may fall asleep faster on the the Mercedes C300 compared to Ford Pinto. Some of those luxurious cars have nice handling and very comfortable. I have not driven a Ford Pinto before though. I have driven Mercedes C class and E class before, and BMW's 3 and 5 series.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

I was kind of interested in this subject too. I didn't want to raise too many ybs, but then I didn't want to not raise enough and have a big fly off like a guy in our combine had this year, he lost near 50 birds at one time to a pop up storm this spring. Oh and I used to have a ford pinto that ran 12 second 1/4 miles with a 351 Windsor....


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Jaysen said:


> So I am in a quandary. This is year one racing. All new set up for us (still in the works) and no real expectation of good results. What I am afraid of is being too timid during breeding.
> 
> Based on the YB losses last year (most guys lost 75% with several losing 100%) I am not sure that a 40 bird YB team will be enough. I have the space. I have the "resources" (in terms of $$ and time), but do I really have the ability to race that many birds?
> 
> How many YB would you guys advise a new racer to start with?


*Hi Jaysen, I for one believe that keeping your race team small is the way to go. You have more time to spend om each bird. One of the reasons that people lose a lot of is the age of the young birds Lets look at it this way if you have 10 pair of breeders that would be 20 young per round which means that you need 5 rounds to get 100 birds on the young bird team. The last two rounds would be 4 and 5 months behind. I do not know when your yb races start I guess is Sept' right after Labor Day so the last 2 rounds 4and 5, would be going in races about 4 and 5 months old I feel that these birds can not take the stress of racing and therefor high losses. I would go with 40-45 birds, keep them healthy and train then well and above all leard how to be a good handler and I feel that you will get birds home when others are lossing them.One other thing I have found that many people that have a bad race will use "I lost birds as a exuse" One more thing ship only the birds that are ready (in condishion) keep the rest at home,and get them ready for the next race.* GEORGE


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well I will not comment on the size of the team issue. What I will say is that I believe you need 10 young off of each pair you want to evaluate as a breeding couple. This will give you something to base their production off of. How you get to that 10 per pair is up to you, have them raise all 5 rounds, put eggs under pumpers, etc etc.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks guys. Great info. Looks like the "fun" decision making is just beginning. 

George, That age thing was one of my concerns. 

I'll let folks know how it turns out.


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## luckyloft (Oct 21, 2006)

I dont think anyone has the magic number of young birds to raise.I do agree you must not overcrowd and you only need to raise what you can handle time wise.To many birds and not enough time leads to health issues!In our club and combine we have flyers who raise over 100 and also there is a member in our club who is at the top of the club and is always close to the top in the combine and he only raises about 20 young birds every year.He is a older man and cant handle 100 young birds also he KNOWS is breeders and only raises out of his best.For many of us it takes awhile to develop a good breeding program not have the money to buy the best.I have raised as many as 50 and as few as 30 and when the young bird season is over I pretty much have about the same amount of birds left,around 10. Jeff


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

West said:


> http://www.articles.racing-pigeon-post.org/Smallest_loft.html
> 
> I wouldn't say he is a "front winner". He holds his own on the very select view long distance races he enters and his birds seem to have very strong homing instincts making them good tough/long distance racers. Hard to compare his results on a couple races a year to the American fliers race season where you typically fly most of the races and need a team capable of doing so.


thank you!.. it was buging me I could not find that.. I always thought it was a nice read..


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That wasn't the best way to ask for verification bcrus, but I do believe you have the right to ask if you can see someone's race results. Just maybe a little nicer?  I also don't believe anyone who says that haven't lost but one or two birds the entire year, not even the old guys in my club who have been racing forever. But that doesn't mean I go around bashing people for saying it.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Our club did not have too bad of losses this year. One reason is our 25ish bird limit. Guys are raising less young birds. One reason for early losses is over crowding. If you cram a bunch of young birds in a loft you run more health risks, birds are not happy etc. I plan on sending 40 to my partners loft. Then I will place about 40 more in lofts around the club and country. When I was a kid at 13, I had 23 young birds. I won two races club wide and had about 15 by the end of the season. Raising 100 in a small loft to have 30 by race day is exactly what you will get.


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## BCrUS (Oct 7, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> bcrus;
> 
> I guess not because you just woke to read my nonsenses.


I'm glad you realize that and no I don't hate you. I believe you should ask more and answer less. A lot of the posts you started were concerns you had. I never bashed you on those.. Did I? Like I said my only complaint was I didn't think you are qualified to answer this question. I know you are a newb and maybe one day you will be a fine flyer.



RodSD said:


> Take it easy man! All comments should be welcome.


That's right even mine..



george simon said:


> *Hi Jaysen, I for one believe that keeping your race team small is the way to go. You have more time to spend om each bird. One of the reasons that people lose a lot of is the age of the young birds Lets look at it this way if you have 10 pair of breeders that would be 20 young per round which means that you need 5 rounds to get 100 birds on the young bird team. The last two rounds would be 4 and 5 months behind. I do not know when your yb races start I guess is Sept' right after Labor Day so the last 2 rounds 4and 5, would be going in races about 4 and 5 months old I feel that these birds can not take the stress of racing and therefor high losses. I would go with 40-45 birds, keep them healthy and train then well and above all leard how to be a good handler and I feel that you will get birds home when others are lossing them.One other thing I have found that many people that have a bad race will use "I lost birds as a exuse" One more thing ship only the birds that are ready (in condishion) keep the rest at home,and get them ready for the next race.* GEORGE


Isn't this the answer like what he needed? a man's opinion to the question...



MaryOfExeter said:


> That wasn't the best way to ask for verification bcrus, but I do believe you have the right to ask if you can see someone's race results. Just maybe a little nicer?  I also don't believe anyone who says that haven't lost but one or two birds the entire year, not even the old guys in my club who have been racing forever. But that doesn't mean I go around bashing people for saying it.


Call it how you see it. If you read all the posts by this guy, you will see he's blowing smoke. He's even claimed he's writing non sense. I'm just the one to call him out.



hillfamilyloft said:


> Our club did not have too bad of losses this year. One reason is our 25ish bird limit. Guys are raising less young birds. One reason for early losses is over crowding. If you cram a bunch of young birds in a loft you run more health risks, birds are not happy etc. I plan on sending 40 to my partners loft. Then I will place about 40 more in lofts around the club and country. When I was a kid at 13, I had 23 young birds. I won two races club wide and had about 15 by the end of the season. Raising 100 in a small loft to have 30 by race day is exactly what you will get.


I love reading posts like these. I do believe in legitimate response. I just believe if we lose focus of why we come here, next thing you know this forum's going to turn to what the Minnesota Pigeon Forum is, if we keep people like that. Let the responses come from the people who have experience. If your not one of those, let them post and learn from them, why post your non sense. Waste people time.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

BCrUS said:


> I love reading posts like these. I do believe in legitimate response. I just believe if we lose focus of why we come here, next thing you know this forum's going to turn to what the Minnesota Pigeon Forum is, if we keep people like that. Let the responses come from the people who have experience. If your not one of those, let them post and learn from them, why post your non sense. Waste people time.


I was actually restating what Frank Tasker and Schearlakens stated in Secrets of Champions. If you do not think those guys have ligit knowledge on the subject of racing then I feel for you. Putting a 100 birds in a 8x10 loft is going to spell disaster and you are going to have big losses. Overcrowding has its issues. Also started in pigeons when I was 13. Have a few breeding years and racing years under my belt. Thanks for the dis though. Makes you a better man than me. LOL


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

BCrUS
Post your opinions and your race records and if they have merit we will give them the look see. 
PS my race results are on my webpage. I do not get to race my own birds due to not having a local club, but others have done quite well with them. Keep in mind the most birds I have ever raced in the club was 36. Most of the time I send about 20 or 30 to multiple fliers. 
Maryofexeter is 17 years old. She already has success and probably the knowledge of most old timers in hear about pigeons in general. 
You might be picking fights with someone who will put you in your place here. 
regards


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jaysen said:


> So I am in a quandary. This is year one racing. All new set up for us (still in the works) and no real expectation of good results. What I am afraid of is being too timid during breeding.
> 
> Based on the YB losses last year (most guys lost 75% with several losing 100%) I am not sure that a 40 bird YB team will be enough. I have the space. I have the "resources" (in terms of $$ and time), but do I really have the ability to race that many birds?
> 
> How many YB would you guys advise a new racer to start with?


Getting back to the question. First year to race. 1 You do not need to run out and buy this bird and that bird.2 Breed from what you have Test the young 3 Do not race every race the club has If your birds are not ready for that race. It takes years towards building your birds. And plenty of time to build your breeders up. To the number you want to work with.It isnt racing the 40 birds Its racing the birds you felt made your team Which should be less. 25 to 35 . IF you select down. Every bird will not make a race bird. Really raise 40 Then 10 would be your best at most for the team So 20 would be 50 % left over for numbers. As you get more into your methods That the birds respond to Which agin is down the road A few years You will have been raising birds that perform under your methods. Good pigeons Take time to develop in any loft. But If you race from a chosen team of birds NOT race from every bird left over you see results in your method. So be it raise 25 or 300 Its the selection That works Not the numbers. More numbers better birds to select from less numbers less birds to select BUT works the same A ten bird team Of the best you raised From smalere numbers And a 25 to 35 bird team from the largere numbers Still Works except less birds you have to not over race them rest them as need Or send 1, 2 bird That are ready for that race. But not the ones that need a week off.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another argument for keeping your numbers down is your time to manage the team. 100 birds takes much more time than 40. (obvious, I observed this through experience). Do you want to basket 100 birds every training toss. (pain in the butt, also through exp.) Easier in the dark (also have exp here). I would say that if your race limits are 25 you would want to have extra birds to choose from, ie form or wing condition (experienced first hand). I would think that 75 extra is excessive (Opinion- feel free to dissagree). 50 good young birds would make a good team for most. Keep in mind that if you want to fly old birds that a few extra might be advisable. The top 4 fliers in our club raise about 80 young birds. Loft sizes 24x16 ish, many have two or three young bird sections. (learned through observation). 
Disclosure: my opinions come from a basis of experience and observation and asking questions from those more knowledgeable then me. If you think you know more than me rebut with examples, experience, and facts. What have you done that works better?


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Call it how you see it. If you read all the posts by this guy, you will see he's blowing smoke. He's even claimed he's writing non sense. I'm just the one to call him out.

Of course it is non sense to you,
It is what you believe;
If you know that it is true, then it is. 
If you don't believe it then it is the opposite, common sense.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

george simon bio
Date of Birth
December 5, 1930 (80)
Join Date
28th February 2006
Total Posts
3,499

Another fight you might not want. I think I would listen to this guy. George how long have you been in the sport?


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Also to bcrus;
I never answered the original question to this post. 
You need comprehensive skills.
I just said I didn't lose more than 2 birds. It has nothing to do with the answer of the post.
I never said anything about the number of birds needed to have a good race season.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

fresnobirdman said:


> Call it how you see it. If you read all the posts by this guy, you will see he's blowing smoke. He's even claimed he's writing non sense. I'm just the one to call him out.
> 
> Of course it is non sense to you,
> It is what you believe;
> ...


Maybe they ran him out of the Min pig forum for being an butt.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Thank you Re Lee for keeping us on task. I am finished now.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

A guy moderators might want to follow. If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, lays eggs, it might be a duck. For someone to tell you are full of it because you call it a duck without anything to back up why it might not be duck, just to stir up the poop does not need to be here. We need to keep PT positive. Some of the bashing that has gone on here recently is making the long timers in the sport and post less interested. Protocal needs to be followed.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another thought, To breed 100 birds you need around 20 pairs and 3 rounds. If new to the sport 20 quality pairs is hard to come by. I worked up from 6 quality breeders and established a family of pigeons. After six years I am in a position to get rid of good breeders for better. Put yourself in a position where you are confident with the young birds you are producing You look at all of the greats. their birds and pedigrees are clones of their best. They only add what they think will better their colony. Just putting anything you can get your hands on so you can breed 100 birds may not be productive. If you can get your hands on 20 quality proven pairs by all means breed 100 young birds. My basis for this opinion comes from the fact that 13/20 of my pairs have produced winners in my competition. The other 7 or 14 birds are either race winners(LL 928), siblings of winners, or siblings of proven breeders. They may not all hit, but the odds are better that they might.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Not sure if I'm missing something but it seems to me like he was affirming that the kind of advice you, George, etc. give is more productive on this forum compared to fresnobirdmans...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

fresnobirdman said:


> Also to bcrus;
> I never answered the original question to this post.
> You need comprehensive skills.
> I just said I didn't lose more than 2 birds. It has nothing to do with the answer of the post.
> I never said anything about the number of birds needed to have a good race season.


Let tone it down Others have had the same results My self include I have trained birds before And never lost 1 in training But then other years lost several. But was all the birds race birds No just the top percent. Some people train different. I know of some that hold there birds in for the first 3 months and wonder why so many fly away when they start them loft flying. Strong wings carry the birds further to get lost. And then some loft fly and train little and still do ok in there club level races. The birds respond to there program. The better birds Well they respond even better. Lets not pick each other apart Just read and learn and contribute. My way is not your way and so forth. But I sure learned from people I grew to respect Those days are gone But I still remember what others helped me learnGift from this forum is many come here AND I believe there is something to learn here. Take that time and offer rather then single each other out.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

Ohh boy!!! I just followed this tread and laugth the heck out, you guys are very funny... Keep it coming I'll stay on the sideline..... Gigggling!!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

It took me a few years to know which of my breeding pairs were the best....I raised 35 to 45 YB`s a year to start with for the first 5 or 6 years...I allways had alot of YB`s left after the season was over...Most of the YB`s flew 4 or 5 races,including a 300 miler....No YB ever has flown more then 5 races since I have had Homing Pigeons...I fly Old Birds,so I don`t want to burn out any YB racing....Now I only breed 28/30 yb`s...I give away 6 to 10 to a good buddy here....I only raise extra,if I am going to send any out for a special race..In 2011,two birds for OUR one loft race sponsored by the Pigeon Talk Board,and two birds going to the 2011 IF Convention race....What I`m also doing is following in my Dad`s footsteps....He only bred 20 to 24 yb`s each year..And here is only one race that he won with a ONE BIRD ENTRY !!

1965 BCA race(bklyn concourse asoc)......380 Lofts bought 6112 Bands... 312 Lofts shipped 2956 birds to the race...The weather was real bad...Top winning speed was 876.88....He won over $5,100.00.....Winning bird IF65BCA7446BBH.....I remember my dad saying this was her 3 time in a race....She only flew 2 prep races,getting ready for this big race...Not alot of experience at all...But a quality pigeon will show up on the race sheet....My dad trained this bird 20 to 25 miles every day ALONE !!! If it wasn`t raining,she went down the road ALONE !! She was never trained with the other 20 or so birds....

I`m only showing you that 100 birds is not needed to win,or be competive in this sport...Birds properly trained will show up on race day...But you must have quality yb`s to start with...A little luck doesn`t hurt either....But good birds in super form will make their own luck...

There are many roads that lead to Rome....There are so many different ways to feed,train,race these birds...And many champions do not have the same ways to do all these different things...But the one common denominator with all the Champion Lofts is,they find a way to get their pigeons in the top 5% on the race report....Alamo


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

West said:


> Not sure if I'm missing something but it seems to me like he was affirming that the kind of advice you, George, etc. give is more productive on this forum compared to fresnobirdmans...


I agree with West here, I think he was complimenting you. Calm down and read my man.

On the other hand I have to agree about fresno.....why are you giving advice about losing 2 birds when you just had a thread about losing a Sure Bet bird and couldn't figure out why. You need to learn more before trying to advise, just my opinion.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crud, I thought I was getting bashed. Defense is my normal response. I thought I had some good ideas here based on facts and experience. 
As for Fresno, he is new but he lost fewer birds than me, must be doing something right. As for BC, welcome to the post.


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## BCrUS (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm sorry if I came out strong. I was complementing all of you in my prior post. Using them as sound answers to the question being asked. I come here to read and learn about pigeons. Why would someone with less experience post something when it has no relevance to the question asked or does not bring us forward in reaching a solution. I am learning still, so is most people on here. I just don't think its right to post when you have no experience in the subject. I don't go on posting posts just to post something, when I have no experience in the subject. I just don't see a need to, but I guess thats just my own opinion, and I will shut up about it. I'll leave my opinions to myself next time. I just don't think its right. That's all. I guess I'll leave on this note then.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

BCrUS said:


> I'm sorry if I came out strong. I was complementing all of you in my prior post. Using them as sound answers to the question being asked. I come here to read and learn about pigeons. Why would someone with less experience post something when it has no relevance to the question asked or does not bring us forward in reaching a solution. I am learning still, so is most people on here. I just don't think its right to post when you have no experience in the subject. I don't go on posting posts just to post something, when I have no experience in the subject. I just don't see a need to, but I guess thats just my own opinion, and I will shut up about it. I'll leave my opinions to myself next time. I just don't think its right. That's all. I guess I'll leave on this note then.



I don't know if you are kind of slow or something but I never answered the question. How can I have a irrelevant answer if I didn't answer something?


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Matt Bell said:


> I agree with West here, I think he was complimenting you. Calm down and read my man.
> 
> On the other hand I have to agree about fresno.....why are you giving advice about losing 2 birds when you just had a thread about losing a Sure Bet bird and couldn't figure out why. You need to learn more before trying to advise, just my opinion.



In my opinion I think that you need to understand that 
this thread is about losing birds during training and racing season;
Not trying to home a 3 month old bird.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

I registered for this forum quite a while ago and check it out from time to time but never got around to actually posting. seem to always get busy at work every-time I have thought about posting before so take this for what its worth

fresnobirdman,

you posted this below on the first page of this thread in a direct response and quote to the person who created this thread asking about losses and how many birds to raise



fresnobirdman said:


> WoW.
> I am a newb at this and I didn't lose more than 2 birds this whole year.


First of all not only did you not really answer the question or help the poster with any real advice but there is a certain scent of arrogance in this reply in that you act surprised that anybody else would lose many birds because you don't have that problem. 

*when i read that post i was a little perturbed as well because as BCrUS pointed out you don't actually race and you have never flown in a competitive club race, that is a key detail you left out of your 'i only lost 2 birds' response.* The original poster on this thread clearly made it known that he was asking about losses and how big of a team to raise for competitive club racing and how is he supposed to know that you don't race. for all he knows you apparently are just really good since you don't lose more than 2 pigeons like everybody else. 

it appears that you train your birds on your own or something and who knows during what time of year but anybody who actually competitively races in club can tell you that you are much more likely to lose birds and you will lose more birds if you race them in a club. i would go as far to say that even if you just trained them but did so before the race season when everybody else is too you are going to lose birds. that's just a given. 

you have a pretty big club in Fresno with a few big names and very competitive flyers. if you really want to find out how good your birds are and how few you can lose i'm sure they would be more than welcome to have you join if you not have already and race against them. i think you will find that losing only 2 birds won;t be so easy when you put them up in the air with so many other birds.

BCrUS was a little harsh on you but i can understand why he had a problem with what you posted and that is why i login finally to post too. sometimes it's not in what you say but how you say it. * that post of yours had a arrogant tone to it and was really misleading since you don't race and the guy was asking about how many birds to raise to race.*


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## BCrUS (Oct 7, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> I don't know if you are kind of slow or something but I never answered the question. How can I have a irrelevant answer if I didn't answer something?


See that is my point if you don't have a *relavent* answer to the post. Please dont post anything. This will be my last post on this. I'm done.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

swaze said:


> I registered for this forum quite a while ago and check it out from time to time but never got around to actually posting. seem to always get busy at work every-time I have thought about posting before so take this for what its worth
> 
> fresnobirdman,
> 
> ...


Or you can just ignore his post. His post can mean anything really. It is how you take it. I mean he might imply that if he is a newbie and lose 2 birds, then a professional should lose less or a professional should lose more because he/she is racing. Then based on that experience the fancier can gauge on what to do. One can even use his experience non-racing as a base in some sort of mathematical calculation on how to calculate the optimum birds to raise for racing. I don't know about that.

I though noticed that some "old" professional bashes "young rookies" until that rookie somehow wins! I think it can happen in any sports. I still remember when I beat a "Master" of our chess club back long ago. He was #1 rank on our board. I was a rookie, totally new, rank last when I joined in. The master being experience knows many more moves. As a rookie I studied a lot so when I challenged the master, they think I had no chance. I was laugh at. Even the master laughed saying I had no chance. They think I was dumb and experienced. Well, I beat the Master in that game and everyone became quiet. I challenged the rests of the team after that and my ranking moved up. After that my team wants me to go with them and compete in Asian international competition. I declined. So the lesson here is that you have to be careful who you laugh at. You many never know....


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

BCrUS said:


> I'm sorry if I came out strong. I was complementing all of you in my prior post. Using them as sound answers to the question being asked. I come here to read and learn about pigeons. Why would someone with less experience post something when it has no relevance to the question asked or does not bring us forward in reaching a solution. I am learning still, so is most people on here. I just don't think its right to post when you have no experience in the subject. I don't go on posting posts just to post something, when I have no experience in the subject. I just don't see a need to, but I guess thats just my own opinion, and I will shut up about it. I'll leave my opinions to myself next time. I just don't think its right. That's all. I guess I'll leave on this note then.


Just as we all have the right to an opinion others have a right to disagree. Even if people are inexperienced, they still have a right to comment even if you disagree. One thing we all do is learn from our mistakes. We also learn from what others have about our ideas. If every new idea was wrong we would never have change. The pigeon game has changed greatly. Most thought the first guy to darken his loft was an idiot, until race day. I remember one of my first posts in here got a strong rebuttal from a member of the post. Warren we love you. But still I knew my thoughts might have some merit for others. If it were not for new ideas, we would not have posts where we can "respectfully" disagree. Hey the sexual intellectuals may be just that, someone in the know.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

RodSD said:


> Or you can just ignore his post. His post can mean anything really. It is how you take it. I mean he might imply that if he is a newbie and lose 2 birds, then a professional should lose less or a professional should lose more because he/she is racing. Then based on that experience the fancier can gauge on what to do. One can even use his experience non-racing as a base in some sort of mathematical calculation on how to calculate the optimum birds to raise for racing. I don't know about that.


well that's the problem though without more detail or clarification that post of his is almost useless and does nothing to help the new guy asking a question.

if a new guy makes a thread and is asking a question about how many birds he should raise for his team because the losses in his area are high and somebody responds with *"wow, i'm a newb at this and only lost 2 birds all year"*

*as the new person how would you take this answer and how does it help the new person?* for me and I think for most people that would read that answer it seems arrogant and it leaves you wanting to know more. like how many birds did he raise to only lose 2? what did he do to only lose 2?

the troubling this is that not only does he not list these important details he also conventionally forgets to mention that he doesn't race and has never raced. the poster of the thread asked about how many birds to raise for racing not training a few birds by himself without racing

bottom line is that answer from fresnobirdman needed more detail and clarification, you know the same way all of the other helpful posters did.



RodSD said:


> I though noticed that some "old" professional bashes "young rookies" until that rookie somehow wins! I think it can happen in any sports. I still remember when I beat a "Master" of our chess club back long ago. He was #1 rank on our board. I was a rookie, totally new, rank last when I joined in. The master being experience knows many more moves. As a rookie I studied a lot so when I challenged the master, they think I had no chance. I was laugh at. Even the master laughed saying I had no chance. They think I was dumb and experienced. Well, I beat the Master in that game and everyone became quiet. I challenged the rests of the team after that and my ranking moved up. After that my team wants me to go with them and compete in Asian international competition. I declined. So the lesson here is that you have to be careful who you laugh at. You many never know....


and this you right on but it really has nothing to do with what i was talking about or what BCrUS and others were talking about. new flyers can do well in this sport and they do all the time. there is so much information because of the internet out there for new flyers that they have more resources than they have ever had. this forum being one of them. if a new flyer does his homework and works hard he/she can very easily do well right away and rise to the top of their club within a couple years. ive seen it happen on more than one occasion. sometimes i almost think new flyers have an advantage over older flyers because they dont have any bad habits or stick to any archaic methods that have been proven wrong by science and newer research

so if and when Fresnobirdman does start to race i have no doubt that he can be successful because all of the information is there for him and he seems like a smart guy that will know what to do with it.

in order for that to happen though he has to actually get in the game and race. just reading about racing on a forum is not the same thing as actually doing it. i really hope he does race because unfortunately there are a lot of people that keep racing pigeons but don't race, have never raced, and have never intended on flying a race. i've known a few of those guys before and there are a few that sell pigeons on the auctions. they sure seem to have no problem sharing their opinion or selling birds that they claim will win for others but its like "how do you know if you have not done it"


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

To swaze;
You are the one acting smartie here,
What I said never had to do with anything about racing or what so ever.
I never stated that I lost them by racing or homing.
I only said I lost 2 birds. Where on earth did you get the *ass*umption that I'm not good at what I am doing?

What the hell does my statement have to do with racing?
I never said that I race.
Where the hell did you smart mind come to the conclusion that I and not good at racing if it never took place?

And of course a statement of opinion would not help, duh.
It is just a statement to what I thought, not an answer, how hard is that for you to comprehend? 

Yes there was a sense of arrogance in the first post because of what the thread starter had said about some guy loosing 100% of all their birds. 

And *how many times do I have to repeat myself that my statement never answered any questions and That It cannot be invalid If I never Answered anything.*


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

BCrUS said:


> See that is my point if you don't have a *relavent* answer to the post. Please dont post anything. This will be my last post on this. I'm done.



Oh I am so sorry for my useless words.
Since this is a pro forum and you can only said true things and nothing else. 
Any answer rendering inferior to bcrus will be prosecuted as useless.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

fresnobirdman said:


> To swaze;
> You are the one acting smartie here,
> What I said never had to do with anything about racing or what so ever.
> I never stated that I lost them by racing or homing.
> ...


well first of all you directly quoted the original poster of this thread with your statement about only losing 2 pigeons. whether that is a statement or an answer why quote him and directly reply to his post if your response has nothing to do with the kind of help or answer he was looking for? I guess the reality is you quoted him to toot your own horn about only losing 2 pigeons in training but then again why not tell him how many you trained in order to lose only 2? 

at least with more clarification or details on your part he and other people would have realized that you were not answering but just making another statement about your own experiences

and yes you are right that technically you never stated that you race but considering the guy was asking a question in regards to racing and you replied to him with a simple one line of "wow, I'm a newb at this and only lost 2 birds all year"

*how the heck is he supposed to know based on that direct response to him that you don't race? would it not be natural for him to assume that you were talking about racing too since this is a racing pigeon forum and he was asking about racing? *

all i'm saying is if you are going to quote a guy with a question about racing with some short arrogant response at least provide some more detail to where he and anybody else knows what you were not talking about racing because when you leave that out they just assume that you do.

By the way I never said that you were not good at racing or wouldn't be good at it, in fact if you had read my last post before this one I actually complimented you and said that you would probably do well right away when and if you do start racing.

finally as far as you making an arrogant statement in regards to a guy in the new guy's club losing all of his birds. Yes that is really bad and someone would have to be doing a lot wrong to literally lose 100% of his birds but then again he did lose them racing and that's a little different than just training.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Fresnobirdman since you seam to be pretty good at not losing birds only losing 2 birds you should host a one loft race maybe then atleast there would be more then 10% of the birds left for the last race like has been happening in alot of these one loft races the past few years.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Fresnobirdman since you seam to be pretty good at not losing birds only losing 2 birds you should host a one loft race maybe then atleast there would be more then 10% of the birds left for the last race like has been happening in alot of these one loft races the past few years.


good point but maybe he only trained 2 to begin with 





just kidding by the way Fresno but it would be nice if you'd tell everybody how many you trained so that 2 number meant something


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey swaze and BCrUS,

Welcome to the forum by the way.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Good time for a moderator to shut this forum down. Personal attacks are not what PT is all about.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Good time for a moderator to shut this forum down. Personal attacks are not what PT is all about.


this thread probably should be shut down at this point as obviously it is way off track but this was not about personal attacks it was about making sure a new flyer was not given misleading information or information that was not relevant to the question he was asking.

and this discussion has been very tame and mild compared to the one i saw the other day here about the AIC one loft race where 4 or 5 guys are all calling each other names, accusing people of cheating, etc now that was much more of a show and got out of hand


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Politics and Pigeons.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Did anyone notice that cocks in a training crate are more quarrelsome than hens? Maybe because we are cocks we end up with more politics? Speculating. Speculating.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

RodSD said:


> Did anyone notice that cocks in a training crate are more quarrelsome than hens? Maybe because we are cocks we end up with more politics? Speculating. Speculating.


Yes it's the same reason why the hens always drink better in race crates whereas one or two cocks will stand guard and fight over the water.....

but it doesn't apply to humans

*As comedian Chris Rock has said time and time again* *"Women Hate Women"*

every job i have ever worked at the women are always in a feud and out to get each other and convinced the other one is out to get her. women hate women

two dudes can get in a fist fight but a week or so later be friends again or at least cordial


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

to swaze,
So every word here has to be about racing?
wow.
this forum is being run by a dictator. 

Free speech is not practiced here people. 
Or swaze will file a case against you.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

So do any of you think that the security at a penitentiary ( infra red ) and all the other stuff, pluss the K factor was at 4 1/2 could have been the reason I lost 1/3 of my young bird team. They had allready been on 3 races to 150 miles and the pen is only 27 mi away.
Dave


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Fresnobirdman:



Jaysen said:


> So I am in a quandary. This is year one *racing*. All new set up for us (still in the works) and no real expectation of good results. What I am afraid of is being too timid during breeding.
> 
> How many YB would you guys advise a new *racer* to start with?


He is obviously asking for advice on *racing*. Jeez dude, drop it. Your reply had NOTHING to do with racing. If some backyard homing pigeon flier asks a question about breeding and losses, feel free to jump in.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

To make things simple, if you are a beginner, then perhaps breeding 100 young birds is the way to determine what stays and what goes. After a few years of competitive racing, you should be able to trim down your breeders and breed only 50 birds. Training and races will help eliminate the bad ones and by the end of the race season, you would have about 30 birds. 

For me, I am a stingy person when it comes to feed. I feel if a bird is not earning his/her keep, then I get rid of him/her, regardless if it was a racer or breeder. I don't like "wasting" feed on birds that don't earn their spot.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Good time for a moderator to shut this forum down. Personal attacks are not what PT is all about.


Remove the trouble makers. Just like culling bad birds. If a bird is constantly invading other nests and crushing eggs and trampling youngsters, remove him/her. If you have nothing good to contribute to this thread, then less talk is more helpful than bashing. 

I am glad that this forum has knowledgeable pigeon people who are hospitiable and do not aim to bash on people. I find the majority of the people are here nice and willing to help with sound advice. The Minnesota Pigeon Forum was a good forum to use until kids starting bragging and bashing people. That's why I've stopped posting on it. After all, you are who you roll with. 

Moderators need to step in.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

West said:


> Fresnobirdman:
> 
> 
> 
> He is obviously asking for advice on *racing*. Jeez dude, drop it. Your reply had NOTHING to do with racing. If some backyard homing pigeon flier asks a question about breeding and losses, feel free to jump in.


*YOUR STATEMENT HERE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ANSWERING OF THE POST QUESTION. *
*YOU CANT SAY THAT HERE OR YOU WILL OFFEND OTHER MASTERS IN THIS FORUM. *


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> Remove the trouble makers. Just like culling bad birds. If a bird is constantly invading other nests and crushing eggs and trampling youngsters, remove him/her. If you have nothing good to contribute to this thread, then less talk is more helpful than bashing.
> 
> I am glad that this forum has knowledgeable pigeon people who are hospitiable and do not aim to bash on people. I find the majority of the people are here nice and willing to help with sound advice. The Minnesota Pigeon Forum was a good forum to use until kids starting bragging and bashing people. That's why I've stopped posting on it. After all, you are who you roll with.
> 
> Moderators need to step in.


I DIDNT START **** HERE,
OLD PEOPLE LIKE YOU GUYS ARE SO GROUCHY. EVERYTHING HAS TO BE YOUR WAY OR HELL BREAKS LOOSE. 

SINCE EVERY WORDS ON THIS FORUM HAS TO BE SOUND AND VALID YOU GUYS BETTER SPEAK OF MONEY AND GOLD NOTHING LESS.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not even going to start jabbing with you fresno. If someone is as low as dirt and I stoop myself down to that level, then I might as well be dirt myself. My ethcial standards are higher than arguing with someone from like you. I will just let the MODs do their job. 

By the way, I'm 32, not 102. So I'm not "old and grouchy." I'm just a nice pigeon guy.


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