# more about albescent strips



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

I did some more reading about albescent strips and here's what I've read.

On Ron Huntley's site, he states that if they have an albescent strip, they do not have smokey factor and if they don't have one, they have smokey factor. Maybe it's just that simple and it is not an indicator of anything else.

The Quinn book states that smokey factor turns them from white to blue on blue pigeons. If that blue matches the rest of the blue and black in the tail, it won't show as a strip. Maybe that also means that with spread factor, since blue becomes black, that the strip becomes black as well and you don't see one on smokey factor blacks. I know that I have blacks both with and without visible albescent strips. I also know that I have plenty of smokey factor birds.

Just what this means with other colors, I'm not sure but it probably works the same with all colors. Ash red and indigo seem to obscure the strips as well but I need to take a closer look at mine to see if this applies to them as well. Patterns or spread definately do not eliminate them.

Bill


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Bill,

Ash red without albescent strips: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/XIJOXCYYKKPKLNPNVAD
Ash red with albescent strips: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/DFRBSDRJRLGXVKJQKQR


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

dimerro said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> Ash red without albescent strips: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/XIJOXCYYKKPKLNPNVAD
> Ash red with albescent strips: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/DFRBSDRJRLGXVKJQKQR


 Hi DIMERRO, Neither of the birds pictured is ASH RED.Ash reds have primary flights and a tail that that have an light ashey gray color. .GEORGE


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi George,

Both are ash-red but they are T-pattern, Sooty and bronze, too (ribbon-tail).


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks Dina*

Those are some really red ash reds and I can see why George would think they are not ash red. I have some rollers with all of these genes as well and I have a hard time making up my mind if they are ash or recessive. I am producing many ribbon tails but most are not nice and white, some are. I asked the question here awhile back about what makes them and never completely sorted it out. I knew that most of mine were ash red and had bronze but wasn't sure what else went into the mix. Is sooty part of the combination that makes them? Many of mine are also grizzle but the ribbon stays pretty well with it.

Bill


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* NUTS*Why not throw in a few more modifiers then you can call it a HEINZ 57 ..GEORGE


----------



## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Sorry to have to jump in here guys, but you're not even discussing the correct thing. The albescent strip is the edging only of the outside of the tail feathers. It's a species characteristic and can be found in blue bar rollers, homers, etc., without smokey as Ron Huntley correctly indicates. The birds you have are ribbontailed. The ribbontail is a result of the ash-red, bronze. We've found (_I learned this from the Luden brothers who raised lots of ribbontails in both Lebanons and in the Indian Fans - in fact they may have been some of the first to move the color marking into those birds) _ that you can pretty much almost sex the birds from their color of strip. Those with a "Grayer" look to the white are females; those purer white are males.


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*No Frank*

You evidently missed too much of this. We are talking about albescent strips, not ribbontails. Dina showed us two birds that happen to have ribbon tails. One has an albescent strip and one doesn't.

Bill


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Frank,

You are right about color of tail band of ribbon tails. If a pigeon has a white tail band seems to be male and if a pigeon has a grey-rose (grey-white) tail band seems to be female. But I saw males with grey-rose (grey-white) tail band. Probably some kind of bronze affect tail band of ash-red pigeons.


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Frank and Dina*

As far as the ribbbon tails go, I've found the same thing in my rollers. that the whitest ones are the males. Back when I had Rchev Startails, I don't remember that problem with them and all seemed to have bright white ribbons. They must have something different going on with them as to genetics as I was pretty sure that they were recessive red and not ash red. Ash red seems to be a factor in producing ribbontails in the rollers. We had a discussion here about them awhile back when I asked if anyone knew what all was involved in producing them. I still get them but I'm not positive what all they have in their genes, bronze for sure but I'm not sure what else. Mine show up in alot of grizzles and mottles. I spoke with a guy who is working on them and he said that recessive red ruins the ribbons. I'm not sure about that but it might take longer to develope them in recessive red. The Turmani's and Rchev's certainly look like recessive red with bronze, at least that's what I thought they were. After seeing these two examples from Dina, I'm not as sure as I was before.

I'll try to get some photos of the ribbons that I have from this year. Even have the start of a ribbon in a black. Don't know why I get them but they seem to be showing up more and more.

Bill


----------



## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill,

Recessive red does ruin the ribbons. Luden told me that as fact. As for the red on these birds, there is no doubt (100% certainty) that they are ash-reds. These, the Lebanons, all other ribbontails ever tested have been ash-red bronzed birds - yes they are so dark they look recessive red, but they're not. Even the clean-legged red priests are ash-red and not recessive red. For all our "vaunted" genetics knowledge, I stand in a lot of awe of earlier breeders who were able to create birds with colors this vibrant and intense by trial, error, and a lot of just pigeon knowledge.

Frank


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

I suppose that it is hetero rec red: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/QDWTKANUGLTWYKZFZIG


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Soooo.......*

You guys seem to be saying that RR makes a mess of ribbons, even in the het RR (e+) state. I won't argue with that. I just thought that I was looking at recessive red ribbontailed birds, just as George thought, I would have guessed those two RT's to have been very dark recessive reds with bronze. I also realized that Dina would know.

Recessive red in het state seems to make changes to other birds as well, such as showing more bronze. Maybe it can muddy up a ribbon also. It seems to be what you guys are saying. 

Lebanons, I would have thought were a bit of a different animal, as they have lebanon bronze stencil factor as well. Would they not have ribbon tails unless they also had the other genetics involved, such as ash red and bronze? They also come in blue and black (Shikli's but I don't remember the color names).

Also, what about the Rchev's and Turmani's? Are they ash red? Thanks,

Bill


----------



## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill,

I know what Quinn wrote, but you have to also remember he said that it was preliminary and a way to try to get a handle on the bronzes (there seem to be a lot of them or at least various ones that may or may not be allelic to each other). So far as I'm aware, even though there have been attempts to find it, no such creature as "Lebanon" bronze actually exists. It appears that various bronzes can create the effect of the "lebanon". Ribbontail doesn't seem to be at all part of the stencil that is in some of the Lebanon breeds. It appears to be just the result of ash-red, bronze. The Rzhev's and Turmani are just that - ash-red bronze.


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*That's an amazing accomplishment*

To have produced ash reds that are so instense that they look like the best recessive reds that you've ever seen. Truly amazing.

I used to have lebanons as well in reds, yellows and blacks but most were not of the nice white quality that you see. I got some from Hollander (for free) because he said they probably were not purebreds. I also had them from the Bonahoom collection which is where I had first seen them in the Enclopedia of breeds. I can't remember if it featured his lebanons but at least other Syrian and mid Eastern breeds. Anyway, I still don't understand the blues and blacks having something that looks like an in between of frill stencil and opal. The reds, I had decided must have been some form of ash red but never understood how they got them so red all the way through the tails. These were the self reds. I guess I hadn't made the correlation that this would likely have been bred in other breeds as well. It always seemed like the lebanon was something unigue.

Bill


----------



## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill,
I agree totally - check out this page. 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/orientalrollers/

It's the Oriental Roller Yahoo site. Check out the pic I've used as the front page one. It's a bowl from 6th Century B.C.E. (Check out not only the pigeon type on the bowl, but the colors as well AND look at the bird to the left. Note the ribbontail marking. If you save the pic to your computer, it'll likely come up a bit bigger or you can enlarge it as well. This shot came to me from a friend who saw the bowl in an Israeli museum book, I believe.

Frank M


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Pretty amazing, indeed*

2600 years ago. Funny, people knew how to do things then that we are just figuring out how to do now. Kinda like the pyramids. Pretty cool.

Bill


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well when I saw the picture of the pottery I felt that I had seen a picture of a bird very much like the one pictured on the pottery. Sure enough on pages 674 and 675 in the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PIGEON BREEDS by LEVI.They are an OLD Romanian breed, red, ribbon tailed and white collared. They are known in Romania as the Castanii or Craioveni. Dimerro would know if they still are found in Romania * GEORGE


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi George,

You are right, all three pigeons are "Castaniu de Craiova" (in Romanian) =~ "Craiova chestnut brown pigeon" (in English). Collared birds are very rare now.


----------

