# Sick Pigeons....Please Help!!



## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Ok, I love all animals but I know very little about Birds. 
I saved 65 White Pigeons in October from a White "Dove" Release company. The birds were being sold to the local zoo for feedings because they had too many birds.
To make a long story short, we had our first hatchings on Jan 16th and some of those babies were being kicked out of the nest and attacked about a week ago, 2 were so hurt they died. I thought maybe they were being kicked out because...it was time for the cocks to take over and they were not doing their job and I now see we have had 1 good set of parents that have re-located their young one to a new perch and are caring for it...so I know now this might not be the case with the others unless they are new parents and are really bad at this part of their breeding. We took in 3 babies at weaning age and they can feed them selves but their legs are broken or they have an illness...I don't know. We have been caring for them, but they haven't gotten better, Besides some pecking of feathers on the top of their head, they had no other injuries, I can tell. So I started monitoring the other babies still in thier nests and the parenting skills of the breeding birds. All babies could stand and had no problems with their legs. Then 3 more fully feathered babies got kicked out and now their legs are now damaged. Are they broken and they should be splinted or could their be mold or a parasite in our loft??

As of yesterday we know have a baby with only the begining of feathers born about a week ago and it was abondoned by its mother and his head had been pecked badly. One of our other weaned baby is keeping it warm as keep it fed.

Please help and I can give more insight to anyone that has some advise.
Thank You SO MUCH!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sometimes they can have leg weakness to the point of paralysis due to a calcium deficiency. Are you giving them a mineral grit? Also, in order to utilize calcium, they either need vitamin D3 or sunlight (not through glass) to make it.

Other things that can be wrong include some diseases although I wouldn't expect Paratyphoid to cause an arthritic condition in several nestlings at a whack. The sciatic nerve runs down through the kidneys in pigeons and so any swelling there can cause bilateral lameness. Is that what you're seeing (lame in both legs)?

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Not a lot of mineral grit, after buying and feeding them an expensive small bag of red grit, I was told to give them sand or small gravel. 

Their loft has chicken wire only for morning and evening sun.

Yes, some have both legs others have only one leg.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Where basically are you in case we need to find you some help? Sometimes, we can find other folks who have lofts and are familiar with pigeon problems, sometimes we find avian vets and sometimes there are members of the forum here who are pretty good.

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Thanks for you help.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On the birds with the problem legs--what do their poops look like? Ideally, there should be a fairly dry (dry enough to hold its shape like a ball) ball of solids covered with a very white "whitecap" of urates. If the poops tend towards very wet, milky, greenish or yellowish urates instead of white... that kind of thing, it helps with the diagnosis. You might very well need to get some standard loft supplies (medicines and that stuff) to have on hand for emergencies. The kinds of things that you're looking for is an anti-canker, a broad-spectrum antibacterial and an anti-coccidial medication. Those are often Ronidazole, Baytril (generic's fine there) and Appertex, respectively, although there are a host of others to have for the same purposes.

Sand will help grind but it doesn't supply calcium and you might need that depending on the quality of what you're feeding them.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This post (click the link) shows various links to pigeon supply houses for all kinds of supplies:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=177662&postcount=4

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

ok, we can do that. 

Only one has really sick green, but he isnt eating any more. About 2 days ago both of his legs went limp. He would move in a panic using his wings as his legs. Damaging his wings just to walk with them. 
As for the others, they look normal, but I will double check.

What should I get for the really sick one?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Thinking it over, you might try this: pick up one of the lame birds, preferably one with lameness only on one side, and compare the legs for any swelling on the lame side. That would signal an arthritic condition that can occur with Paratyphoid, E. coli... even Streptococcus infections. Usually, when we see that in a loft, some will get it on their wings in various joints and usually less will get it in their legs.

It'd would be a very rare event to see several of your birds break their legs at the same time. I've had about 50 for several years and have only had one bird in the loft break a leg and I think he did it while flying outside that day.

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Tahts what I thought too. 
After speaking with my husband about their food, we remembered that we threw out a barrel of their food that had gotten wet from the recent rain storms. Could this be mold from their food? I would say this all started happening about 3 days after that and the start of some new food bags.
They are currently being feed a Dove delight mix for pigeons that Pratts Feed store recomended.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Mrs Kellie said:


> *Only one has really sick green*, but he isnt eating any more. About 2 days ago both of his legs went limp. He would move in a panic using his wings as his legs. Damaging his wings just to walk with them.
> 
> What should I get for the really sick one?


I don't suppose you can either take a picture of those poops or go into a lot of detail describing them? Generally when they haven't been eating, they will still put out blobs of bile, which is usually dark green and almost looks black. When you smear it on something white (paper), the green-ness shows up pretty well. That's the stuff that breaks down fats. If the bird has been eating, there are solids mixed into that and any color from dark green to dark brown can occur. If the colors shift away from "dark" towards light colored green, milky green, etc. then it's usually bad, especially if the bird's acting sick. There are viral illnesses that they can get which might cause a lot of green diarrhea but we can't do much for those but let it pass while providing supportive care. Liquid calcium has been found to possibly help in those cases.

So, try to describe that a little better. Any chance of taking such a poop sample to an avian vet near you?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How long was that food wet for? They certainly can get bad sick from grain that's been wet for awhile, more so in warmer seasons or storage temperatures. Molds like Aspergillus can create some of the nastier toxins on earth.

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Only the really sick one has Green watery poop. He is only comfortable on his back and we have force fed him Exact to help him as much as we can. They are all currently sun bathing out side.

As for the baby he just pooped Green and yellow pile. Not hard at all.

As for the others....well it is hard to tell cuz we are caring for 3 in one pen but they have harder green black and white poop.

The older youngling caring for the baby has black and white normal looking ones. He was the first on to come to us with the leg problem.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Mrs Kellie said:


> Only the really sick one has Green watery poop. He is only comfortable on his back and we have force fed him Exact to help him as much as we can.


Is that dark green watery poop, light green, lime green, or a green like that old "Institutional Green" like you'd see in schools and such years ago? I'll tell you that when it's a flock problem (multiple birds involved), it's often the sickest ones that provide the best clues as to what's going on.

Is that Pratt's in Glendale?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When it comes to nestlings, it's tougher sometimes to treat them because some of the antibiotics are harder on them. One of the best, Baytril, affects how their bones grow and so isn't often used in nestlings. Therefore, one of the safer antibiotics for nestlings is a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination. Those come in a bunch of different formulations, mainly powders for flock treatment that you mix in their water or food. Trimethoprim/Sulfas have a bunch of different names, too: Bactrim, Cotrim, Septra, and dozens more. There are many to be had from the pigeon supply houses linked above.

If this bird is only comfortable on its back, I don't suppose you could tell how you make that determination? Do you get the sense that its legs are in that much pain? That would tend to make me think more of a Paratyphoid than anything else. I think when they get kidney infections that affect their legs, it's their insides that hurt bad and their legs are just useless, but they're still comfortable squatting on their chests.

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

We cant tell about how long the food was wet, because there was a dime size hole in the bottom of the can that we were unaware of until we got towards the bottom of the container. To give you more of a visual, the container is a metal trash can (regular size) it sat directly on the ground and it rained that week hard. When we noticed it, we went to dump the can and it was sprouting under the can green leaves.

The sickest One:Olive green would fit best. 
As for the baby it was a very dark green with yellow.

Yes, its Pratts feed in Glendale.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

Pidgey,
I may be incorrect but as far as I know, sand is useless. It's too small and goes through the system.


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

If this bird is only comfortable on its back, I don't suppose you could tell how you make that determination? Do you get the sense that its legs are in that much pain? That would tend to make me think more of a Paratyphoid than anything else. I think when they get kidney infections that affect their legs, it's their insides that hurt bad and their legs are just useless, but their still comfortable squatting on their chests.

Pidgey[/QUOTE]

I would say that best would fit him, but he wont eat either. He will drink only if we hold the syringe at his beek. He gobbles it up. He does not like the Exact feeding at all.

As for the others, they move around using their wings or the other leg. Sitting is what they do most often and we keep their water and food close by so they can feed as much as they want.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

Mrs. Kellie,
Do you have an avian vet near you that you could take one of the sickly birds to? If the symptoms are the same, the chances are that the illness is the same and the treatment recommended could be extended to all of the affected birds? Are you in the U.S. because if you can give me your state, I can hopefully find avian vets in your vicinity.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are you feeding the baby with the yellow urates Kaytee by any chance? I've noticed that the Kaytee will always cause yellow urates no matter how healthy the bird. The deal about the white part, or "urates", of bird poop is this: it should be white. If it's not, if it's true yellow or heading towards that light, almost blue-green color as the bird gets sicker, it usually means that the liver is involved. In us, jaundice is expressed by bilirubin which makes us look yellow. Birds lack an enzyme to form that so they make a substance called "biliverdin" instead and it makes the color difference in the white part of the poop. That's usually an indicator of true disease even though it can be pretty doggone tough to nail down which one. In such cases, it's often a take-your-pick choice of an antibiotic that's got the widest range or even a combo and take your best shot. The combination of Baytril plus Metronidazole is pretty strong although there are some things that it won't get.

How old is the sickest one? Or, how big is it?

You might try calling Pratt's and see if they have "FishZole" and other fish tank medications. Such places often have Sulmet (a straight Sulfa), amoxicillins, tetracyclines but I doubt you're going to find Baytril there.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Occasionally, though, you can have more than one thing going on. Just for kicks and giggles, pry open the sickest one's beak and look inside for anything that looks like a cheddar-cheese colored button stuck anywhere in the mouth or throat.

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> Mrs. Kellie,
> Do you have an avian vet near you that you could take one of the sickly birds to? If the symptoms are the same, the chances are that the illness is the same and the treatment recommended could be extended to all of the affected birds? Are you in the U.S. because if you can give me your state, I can hopefully find avian vets in your vicinity.


I only heard about sand yesterday, so abc gravel and the red grit bought at Pratts was the only stuff that was used prior to any problems.


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Are you feeding the baby with the yellow urates Kaytee by any chance? I've noticed that the Kaytee will always cause yellow urates no matter how healthy the bird. The deal about the white part, or "urates", of bird poop is this: it should be white. If it's not, if it's true yellow or heading towards that light, almost blue-green color as the bird gets sicker, it usually means that the liver is involved. In us, jaundice is expressed by bilirubin which makes us look yellow. Birds lack an enzyme to form that so they make a substance called "biliverdin" instead and it makes the color difference in the white part of the poop. That's usually an indicator of true disease even though it can be pretty doggone tough to nail down which one. In such cases, it's often a take-your-pick choice of an antibiotic that's got the widest range or even a combo and take your best shot. The combination of Baytril plus Metronidazole is pretty strong although there are some things that it won't get.
> 
> How old is the sickest one? Or, how big is it?
> 
> ...


Yes Kaytee Exact Hand feeding formula.
So you think Fish Zole but Baytril would be the best??


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> Mrs. Kellie,
> Do you have an avian vet near you that you could take one of the sickly birds to? If the symptoms are the same, the chances are that the illness is the same and the treatment recommended could be extended to all of the affected birds? Are you in the U.S. because if you can give me your state, I can hopefully find avian vets in your vicinity.


I am in Desert Hills Arizona (Cave Creek, Carefree, Anthem, New River then Phoenix being the closest other cities)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You'd mentioned that it (the red grit) was expensive... how bad was it? There are places that sell the stuff for a fortune and there are places that sell the same stuff relatively cheaply. If they just ran out then it's probably not a grit issue unless the stuff you've started giving them was contaminated with something. Which came first, the new grit (sand) or the illness?

FishZole is Metronidazole. It's actually an anti-protozoal (protozoa like Trichomonads, which cause Trichomoniasis or "canker") but it also works against some anaerobes that Baytril won't get. Baytril (Enrofloxacin; the veterinary equivalent of Ciprofloxacin; the cheapest version of which is the 10% liquid solution that can be gotten from Foy's for $30 for 100 milliliters) is a completely different medication that mostly goes after Gram-negative bacteria. For Paratyphoid, it's the best answer. BUT, your birds may not have that. That's why I was asking if you could feel any swelling in their legs.

What I was saying about Baytril and FishZole was that they make an excellent combination to work in tandem. That can be really important when you don't know what it is that you're trying to get.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

Avian Vets in Arizona:

Acoma Animal Clinic

Sheri Sabo
6666 West Peoria Ave., Suite 122
Glendale, AZ 85302
Phone: 623-979-4646 

Alta Mesa Animal Hospital

Jill Patt
6704 E. Brown Rd.
Mesa, AZ 85205
Phone: (480) 981-1244 

Valley West Animal Hospital

Amy Cromer
7811 N. 35th Ave
Phoenix, AZ 85051
Phone: (602)841-0727
Fax: (602)841-2922 

Foothills Mobile Exotic DVM

Todd Driggers
1530 W. Elliot Rd
Gilbert, AZ 85234
Phone: 480 706-8478
Fax: 480 926-1211 

Laura Lange
195 Paseo Del Sol Ave.
Lake Havasu, AZ 86403
Phone: 520 453-2002 

Michael Samuels
1050 North Country Club Road
Tucson, AZ 85716
Phone: 520 323-9912 

North Central Animal Hospital

Hillary Frank
20 W. Dunlap Ave.
Phoenix, AZ 85021
Phone: 602-395-9773
Fax: 602-395-9825


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

Mrs. Kellie,
I urge you to get one of the birds over to an avian vet. These symptoms run a gamut of possibilities and to pin it down to a cause, you need one of the birds tested.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for offering a home to these these pigeons. 

I suspect there is more then possibly mouldy seed causing problems, it might have complicated matters, but definitly not all that is going on.

I would also like to know what kind of coop the birds have. Pigeons do not have many needs, but the few needs they do have are crucial to their health and well being.

They need to be dry and kept out of the elements, by elements I mean, they need protection from wind (drafts) rain and preditors. They need a coop that can provide these things, and also good circulation of air. Their coop should have a solid floor and be off the ground.

They also require basic prevention such as nutrition and preventive innoculations.

They have a need for red pigeon grit, not only to break down seeds in their crop but for minerals especially calcium.

There are pigeon supply houses available around the country that can provide you with everything, at a reasonable price.

Here are a few:

http://jedds.com/
http://www.globalpigeon.com/
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/index.html

Here is a link to finding rehabbers in your area:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm

This may help you locate an avian vet:

http://aav.org/vet-lookup/

and our own resource to find help:

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> You'd mentioned that it (the red grit) was expensive... how bad was it? There are places that sell the stuff for a fortune and there are places that sell the same stuff relatively cheaply. If they just ran out then it's probably not a grit issue unless the stuff you've started giving them was contaminated with something. Which came first, the new grit (sand) or the illness?
> 
> THE ILLNESS CAME, before the sand. I want to say around 8.99 for a very small bag of it. (Maybe its not exspensive for most people, but the birds ate it like it was a treat and with that many birds eating it, it went fast.
> 
> ...


I will check their legs....and get back to you on it. Thanks!


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Thank you for offering a home to these these pigeons.
> 
> I suspect there is more then possibly mouldy seed causing problems, it might have complicated matters, but definitly not all that is going on.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I will look into everything further.
My husband built an off the ground loft. After seeing the previous owners loft, we made upgrades to ours.
Like I said they are off the ground in a 14x14 square loft. 2 sides are closed in walls and 2 sides are open-air chicken wire. They have a perch for each bird plus breeding compartments, which we thought may-be to small for the 2 parents and the 2 babies. When we got the rain last week, it did get wet inside and that is when the food got wet and all of this started happening.
But these are also our first nestlings...so we didnt know what the cause was.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Mrs Kellie said:


> Thanks! I will look into everything further.
> My husband built an off the ground loft. After seeing the previous owners loft, we made upgrades to ours.
> Like I said they are off the ground in a 14x14 square loft. 2 sides are closed in walls and 2 sides are open-air chicken wire. They have a perch for each bird plus breeding compartments, which we thought may-be to small for the 2 parents and the 2 babies. When we got the rain last week, it did get wet inside and that is when the food got wet and all of this started happening.
> But these are also our first nestlings...so we didnt know what the cause was.


Thank you for your response.

If the two open walls are exactly opposite of each other, that can create a draft of air, and is devistating to pigeons, also any standing rain or wetness inside can cause health issues, or complicate any current issues. The two open walls just may allow too much rain inside anyway.

Also, the proper barrier for pigeons (what is between them and elements) would be hardware cloth. Chicken wire is like aluminum foil in the hands of hungry predators.

The nest box should be large enough for the parents to walk around and have two nest bowls in it, as well as fronts to keep babies from accidentally falling out.


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> If the two open walls are exactly opposite of each other, that can create a draft of air, and is devistating to pigeons, also any standing rain or wetness inside can cause health issues, or complicate any current issues. The two open walls just may allow too much rain inside anyway.
> 
> ...


We will work on changing that then. Cuz our nest boxes are their perches with a lip on it to keep only one nest.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Normally, you don't see that kind of rain there, huh?

Pidgey


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## Mrs Kellie (Feb 11, 2007)

nope not here =0)


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