# Sick pigeon, no vets, what should I do?



## atete (May 18, 2012)

There is a sick pigeon on my balcony. The feathers are not fluffed. I
put a plastic basin for pigeons to drink water and wash in, because
it's very hot. That pigeon got into water, and stayed there for a
day! I went out and came back, and it was still there. I decided to
catch it, but it crawled into the grape vines between the balcony
grate. I will try again tomorrow. What should I do with it, then?
There are no avian vets here, and no any other vets! Its very slow, and looks confused.
I have a cardboard box, and there is one pet shop in the area.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I would try to to find him and catch him as soon as you can. When you have him, let us know. Thank you for caring


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

Thanks for reply, Msfreebird. This bird, for some reason, wants to
stand in the water. In the morning, birds came to drink and splash,
and it stayed near the basin and stared at it, and I thought that it
was scared. Then, I came to close the balcony before leaving, and it
got into it, and stand in the water. I thought it wanted to splash.
In the evening, I came back, it was standing in the water. I opened
the door of the balcony again, and it jumped out and went into the
vines, and between the grates, and there is no way to get it out of
there now, but I hope it will go out in the morning.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Keep him in a safe cage or box and keep him warm, then come back on.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

atete said:


> Thanks for reply, Msfreebird. This bird, for some reason, wants to
> stand in the water. In the morning, birds came to drink and splash,
> and it stayed near the basin and stared at it, and I thought that it
> was scared. Then, I came to close the balcony before leaving, and it
> ...


Did you see it drink at all? If you can catch it, the first thing I would do is check its throat for canker (yellow lesions or growths in the mouth or throat). It may be thirsty and hungry but can't eat or drink.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

How hot is it where you are and is it hotter than usual?


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

it used to be. Now, it's cooler than it was, but still hot, about +30
C.
Ok, it's late now, 1 in the morning, but I could not sleep, and went out, and on my knees, and got it! 
it used to be. Now, it's cooler than it was, but still hot, about +30
C.
I catch it with a cloth, and managed to get it through the grating
and vines, and put it into the box. When I removed the cloth, water
burst out of that pigeon, out of its behind! The cloth is all wet,
and the floor is wet, plus there was a piece of poop. Here are the
photos. Sorry for the poop photo, not very clear. It does not show,
but this piece is lying in a pool of water!


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

I am trying to open its beak, but it keeps moving it, and twisting
its head, like its trying to bite me. And, I am badly allergic to
feathers, and it's late and I am tired. It's very wiggly.


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

I gave it water, and it never opened its beak, but moved its throat
like it was swallowing. Then I tried to pick it up again, and again,
water gushed out of it! it's like an open tab! It simply flows out of
the pigeon!


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

it tried to peck me!


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

I managed to open its beack a little, and it seems very dark pink to me, almost red. I don't see anything yellow, but I did not open wide enough.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

OK, then I would keep him confined in a warm area, with a dish of water (put a dash of salt and sugar in it = rehydrating solution) and some seed. Just let him rest overnight for now. You can cover the cage to make him feel a little more secure.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh, and they can't hurt you when they bite. When checking him over...be firm but gentle. 
Can you feel his keel (breast bone), does it feel 'sharp'? Or with some padding?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

It's a young pigeon. To be able to properly open her mouth and look inside the throat, she needs to stand still for you. To prevent her from moving: wrap her up in a towel or t-shirt or any similar piece of cloth, with only the head and neck sticking out. And to avoid her being able to wiggle out of it, make sure the legs are extended backward towards the tail. Then place her on your lap - you now have two free hands - one to hold open her beak, and the other to point a flashlight down her throat.

They don't open their beaks much when they are drinking because they suck in the water. Is it gushing water out of its mouth, and does its crop feel like it's full of water?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Actually, if he is gushing water, then his crop is full of water and probably not emptying. I wouldn't leave him with more water, as if he keeps drinking, his crop will just fill up with more. He can aspirate by bringing up so much water. Give him some in the morning, but just a little bit.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It sounds like canker or yeast. Or both, and probably bacteria involved. You can't always see canker either. Is there anyone around who keeps pigeons and may have medications that are needed? Or can you buy meds at a drugstore, like Nystatin for yeast or candida ? And Metronidazole for canker? An antibacterial like Baytril or Trimathoprin sulfer maybe?

Does he smell bad? Try not to put pressure on his crop, which is on his chest just below his neck, as that will just cause more water to come out. Canker makes them very thirsty, but can also cause a blockage in the crop. The water and contents sit in there and can't pass. Then they can develop yeast and a bacterial infection. Letting him drink too much just compounds it.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Actually, if he is gushing water, then his crop is full of water and probably not emptying. I wouldn't leave him with more water, as if he keeps drinking, his crop will just fill up with more. He can aspirate by bringing up so much water. Give him some in the morning, but just a little bit.


good point!  I just meant- I wouldn't force feed him anymore water.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm confused. Which end of the pigeon is the water gushing out of? Is it drinking a lot and passing it, or is the crop not passing and the water is gushing out of the mouth? I was under the impression it was the former because of this:

"When I removed the cloth, water
burst out of that pigeon, out of its behind! The cloth is all wet,
and the floor is wet, plus there was a piece of poop. Here are the
photos. Sorry for the poop photo, not very clear. It does not show,
but this piece is lying in a pool of water!"


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

nycpigeonlady said:


> I'm confused. Which end of the pigeon is the water gushing out of? Is it drinking a lot and passing it, or is the crop not passing and the water is gushing out of the mouth? I was under the impression it was the former because of this:
> 
> "When I removed the cloth, water
> burst out of that pigeon, out of its behind! The cloth is all wet,
> ...


Thank you.
I may have misunderstood. Is he losing water from behind, or from his mouth?

He said the bird was making swallowing movements, which can also be canker..................


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

Hi people, thank you all for the help. I am sorry I was unclear, I
was very tired yesterday.
Yesterday, the pigeon passed a lot of water out of its behind. On the
cloth and on the floor. I gave it some water. It tried to peck me.
Then I pushed its beak into the water, and it drank like mad. Then
we went to bed.
In the morning, there was poop in the box. I am posting the photos. I
managed to open its beak wide in the morning, I don't have any
flashlights, sorry for this. For what I could see, there was nothing
yellow inside, everything was dark pink.
Then I gave it some water, and it drank what seemed to me a
reasonable amount. I am not an expert. Then I tried to pick it up,
and some water went out of its beak! Then I put it into the box, and
it had some water, instantly, coming out of its behind!
So, yesterday - water from behind. Today - water from its beak and
its behind. I removed water from its box.
It won't eat.
We have a large pet store. They sell pet food and toys and seeds for
birds, and I will go ask. If you can, please, tell me:
1. Possible illnesses.
2. Possible medications, preferably several names (maybe they go here
under different name, so I can mention the illnesses and they can
offer something?)
I know you already did, but maybe repeating me in the format above,
please?
I know it's not a lot to go by, as far as symptoms go, but it's all I
can do.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's very bad dropping you are seeing. It's evident form the picture that the pigeon hasn't eaten. A normal pigeon poop is at least the size of a pea...usually bigger dark brown with a white top. The dropping you took a picture of is just liquid from all the water the pigeon has been drinking.
Although I can't be positive, I am fairly certain the pigeon has a canker infection. Canker s caused by a single cell parasite that most pigeons and other birds hatch with. There is no worry over you getting it.
The medicine you need to treat the canker is metronidazole or flagyl. I don't know if you can buy antibiotics with out a doctors script but if you can, please do so. If not, and there is a pet shop that sells supplies for aquariums,they may have the medication for fish. If so, it will also work for the pigeon. If you can't get the medicine from either of those places, do you have a farm store on the island that sells medications for chickens?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Atete,

By the look of those poops your young friend has not eaten anything in a while - what you are seeing is urine and urates, not fecal matter. You need to hand feed him before he dies of starvation, but first you need to determine that his crop is passing, and the fact that water came out of its mouth when you picked him up may mean it's not or doing so slowly. 

How long after he drank did you pick him up? Can you check after he drinks how long does it take for the crop to empty (to lie flat against his chest). 

You can get some dry puppy food from the store and soak the little bits in warm water and a drop of apple cider vinegar. When they are very expanded and soft from the soaking feed him only about 10 pieces at a time, and see how long it takes for that to move out of his crop. Do not feed more until that passes through. The pieces will be so soft that they will almost fall apart as you place them at the back of his mouth, and if you place them far enough he should swallow them. If he's still spitting them out even though you've placed them far in, you can hold his beak closed for a second after you pop each one in, to prompt him to swallow, but you really shouldn't need to do that.

As Jay recommends, you need to get 3 medications: 
1. one for *canker*, one for *yeast*, and an antibiotic for possible *bacterial infection*.

2. *Metronidazole* for canker. It's a human medication, so maybe you can get it from a friendly doctor/pharmacist. You'll only need a few pills. If not, it is sometimes sold as treatment for aquarium fish, but you must make sure it is the only ingredient in the formulation. 
You'll also need to get *Nystatin* for yeast (it's a human med as well) and an *antibiotic*. You may already have something appropriate at home since many human ones will work. A good vetrinary one is *Baytril (enrofloxacin)* which it's also used for cats and dogs and many other animals, and I know you said there are no vets, but maybe there's a way to locate some. It's human equivalent is *ciprofloxacin*. All the names of the medications except for "Baytri"l are the generic names of the active ingredient, so should be the same where you are.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Didn't see your post, Charis - wrote essentially the same thing.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Great post nycpigeonlady.

Of the medications recommended, the most important one is the metronidazole followed by baytril and nystatin.


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

hi people,
thank you yet again.
I went to a pet shop, and they had a corner, called "Vet pharmacy".
They did not have Metronidazol or Nystatin, but sent me to a human
pharmacy. In the vet pharmacy, they sold me Baytril.
In human pharmacy, they sold me
Metronidazol, 20 pills in a packet, one pill contains 250 mg of
Metronidazol.
Nystatin, one pill contains 500 000 units of nystatin.
What's the dosage, and how to administer it? I thought about grinding
it and dissolving in water. I also got a huge syringe, and thought
I'd remove the needle and try to administer that water through the
hole in the syringe. Not sure if it's right.
I am working on dog food plus apple vinegar.


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

Baytril is liquid, 10 per cent.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi atete,
You manged to get everything - great job! Since you managed to get the nystatin, don't worry about the vinegar. Just try to get some food into the bird as soon as possible, because the longer he stays hungry the weaker he'll get. 

Do you have a kitchen scale that you can weigh him with - the medication dosage is determined by weight. I'm going to bed now, but someone will be along shortly to help you with the dosing.


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

sorry, no scales.
Also, please, how much dog food to give? I am afraid to give too
much, and that then it will stick inside of it, and it will die. The
water is still coming from the beak.


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

And, yesterday I put a plate with some grounded barley into the box, and sometime it comes to it and pecks a little, should I let it?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Right now I wouldn't even try to get food into him. You will only cause more water up and out of his mouth. He can aspirate. Getting the meds in right now is what you need to do. The Metronidazole can be quartered, and give one quarter pill once daily, for 7 days anyway. But to start, give a loading dose of 1/2 pill. Do this by holding him on your lap and against your body, and opening his beak. Pry it open with your fingernails. Put the pill way to the back of his throat then close his beak. He will swallow it, if it is far enough back. After this, each day at about the same time, you will give 1/4 pill of the Metronidazole.

The Baytril and Nystatin can be given together, about 6 hours after the Metronidazole. The Nystatin can also be quartered, and he would get 1 a day with the Baytril. 

Is the Baytril liquid or a pill?
Start now with the Metronidazole. And let me know if the Baytril is pill or liquid.


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

hi Jay, as I already mentioned, Baytril is liquid, 10 per cent.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry, I somehow missed that. Duh! On a 1 cc ( 1ml) syringe, it would be 0.1 cc. Without a syringe, it would be 4 drops. Can you give 4 drops down his throat, past the back of the tongue, without getting it in his airway? If so, then when you give the Baytril, also give the Nystatin.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I am *absolutely amazed *you were able to find all those medications. Great job!


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## atete (May 18, 2012)

thanks, people.
I gave the pigeon Metronidazol. Then, several hours later, Nystatin
and Baytril. Then, offered it some water. The bird drank some, and
then immersed its whole head into the water, eyes and all, and then
took it out and waved it! I thought that ill birds do not bathe?
Should I bring it a basin with water for bathing? Also, I went out,
then came back and the new poop is very watery and very green!
Green as new leaves and grass.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Of course the worry is that if the crop is still fluid filled, it isn't emptying and you feed him, he will vomit. The green watery poop is from lack of food. You can start out slow though to see if he is able to keep the food down.Some people feed a pre mix formula, others soaked dog pellets. I feed defrosted peas.
Let me get you some pre-written feeding instructions. Start out by feeding 15-20 to see if he can keep them down without vomiting. If so, increase the amount you feed. You should only feed when the crop empties.
I wouldn't give him bath water.

You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas make the crop feel lumpy and squishy.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I also like doing the peas, particularly for a bird that is not cooperating, they are so much easier to feed. I just found with my last bird that he was able to keep down the dog food better than the peas when he was in that horrible regurgitating phase of canker. Of course the problem here is the crop may not be emptying, so the particular food may not matter at all. But I was also thinking if the crop is partially blocked by a canker nodule, then maybe the soaked kibble which falls apart the moment it's ingested, might have an easier time getting through the blockage. Just a thought.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Eva...that's really good to know the kibble worked well. 
If I have a fluid filled crop pigeon come to me, I usually don't feed anything but tube 5 ccs of warmed applesauce for human babies. The applesauce helps change the ph balance in the crop and with the metronidazole and nystain helps get the crop moving.
I am very reluctant to suggest tubing a pigeon to someone that has never done it before.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for that info Charis. Luckily, I've never had a pigeon with a fluid-filled crop so far, but I know I'm bound to encounter one at some point, so that's very good to know.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A few weeks back I had a pigeon like that. I started with tube feeding formula, but he vomited that, then the crop became so fluid filled that just picking him up caused him to drip water from his beak. At that point, I was afraid to feed him at all. I just wanted to give the meds some time to work. Next day I gave the warmed applesauce that Charis taught me about a long time ago. That has always seemed to help in cases of a slow crop.
And I think it is gentler than using ACV. Anyway, the applesauce and the couple of days of meds helped. Often times, just mixing in the applesauce with the formula makes a big difference. He is now back in the loft chasing his mate and guarding his perch, the picture of health. Prayer and applesauce can go a long way! And I had a good teacher! Thanks Charis. You are a very special Pal.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> *On a 1 cc ( 1ml) syringe, it would be 0.1 cc. Without a syringe*, it would be 4 drops. Can you give 4 drops down his throat, past the back of the tongue, without...


By my calculations *that dose is too high*. 0.1 cc of Baytril 10% solution would contain *10 mg *of Enrofloxacin. 

It is 4 times the strength of Baytril 2.5%, so basically the maximum dose would be 0.025 ml per 100 gms of pigeon.

The Enrofloxacin dosage for pigeons is 5-10 mg *per kilo*

Also, I only get two drops of Baytril from 0.1 cc

I would play it safe and give just one drop.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Actually, it would be 10 mg for a 400 gram bird. If the bird is a bit lighter, it isn't going to hurt him. Your dosage is *way under* what many vets over here prescribe. And that amount has always worked very well.
The dosage I have recommended is based upon Charis's experience working with a wildlife vet, and through the rehab classes that she has attended, and also confirmed by my own avian vet. In one cc there are twenty drops, and the recommended dose was 4 drops. Under dosing can be harmful as well, as it can build resistance in the bacteria.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My information on the *the British Small Animals Vets formulary for Raptors, Pigeons and Passerine Birds*, (which gives the same information that I find in other formularies and was confirmed by Dobato) which states the dose for a pigeon is *5-10 mg per kilo*, and on my calculator which tells me that if 1cc holds 20 drops, 0.1 cc holds 2 drops...therefore the dosage of 4 drops would be 0.2 cc , 20 mg. 

If the maximum dosage is 10 mg per kilo, then 4 drops (0.2cc - 20mg) would surely be the dose for a 2 kg bird? 

Can you double check with Charis and/or your avian vet that the dose you are thinking of isn't the 2.5% solution, as that is the one that is usually used by vets and wildlife rehabbers for oral dosing in birds and small animals?? It is important for this bird, because it will also be having Metronidazole.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have just been to the US Baytril site to double check and you are right Jay3, their recommendation is higher than the formulary I use, but it is a once daily dose whereas the formulary I use still goes for 12 hourly doses (British vets don't like the 24 hour dosing).

The US Baytril Formulary : 10 – 20 mg per kilo, once every 24 hours. 

My calculations :

10-20 mg per kilo = 1-2 mg per 100 grams of pigeon

A 400 gm feral would need 4-8 mg

0.1 cc holds 10 mg of Enrofloxacin.

0.1 cc is two drops, each drop is 5 mg of Enrofloxacin.

4 drops would be 20 mg, but OK I think for a first, one-off doubled up dose which Kimberley used to recommend.

If anyone finds fault with my calculations please let me know. John has obtained some 10% Baytril for our pigeons and I am anxious to get the dosage right.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In o.o1 cc, there is actually 3 1/2 drops. That is what we calculated out, and I just tested it and come up with 3 1/2 drops per 0.01cc.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> In o.o1 cc, there is actually 3 1/2 drops. That is what we calculated out, and I just tested it and come up with 3 1/2 drops per 0.01cc.


Jay 3:

You said there were 4 drops in 0.1 cc...that is that is 40 drops per cc.

Then you said there were 20 drops in a cc. That is 2 drops in 0.1 cc

Now you say there are 3 1/2 drops in 0.01 cc, I assume that is a typo as that would be 1/100th of a cc?

*This is a link* to a website that converts ccs to drops...their answer is 2.

In future if you have information from a reliable source that contradicts mine and you sincerely believe it is correct please just post the link.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Jay 3:
> 
> You said there were 4 drops in 0.1 cc...that is that is 40 drops per cc.
> 
> ...




Yes Cynthia. Duh! There are 4 drops in 0.02 cc, but when I tried it, I actually get 3 1/2. Meant to say in 0.02. Sorry.


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