# Introductory Loft Challenge



## Wayne Johnson

*We need an Introductory Loft for New Fanciers*
I propose an idea for the general discussion of the pigeon forum members. I fear that the pigeon fancy may be in danger as are all traditional hobbies in this day of technological wonder. I propose that the hutch style of loft is a viable and desirable alternative to the walk in loft so often used at this time. A convenient parallel is the aquarium hobby in which I am an active participant also. Traditional freshwater aquariums were in decline as a hobby for some time until the recent advent of the Betta Vase of the ‘90s. These tiny vessels were initially reviled by the aquarium mainstream in spite of their popularity. In fact they served to introduce many people to the hobby and have contributed greatly to its popularity. Another more profound influence is that of the Mini-Reef aquarium. The original proponents stated that anything smaller than 55 gallons was unmanageable and strongly discredited. People new to the hobby were almost universally drawn by the smaller, micro-reef set ups that appeared in specialty stores. When the mainstream reef experts finally realized the viability and positive impact on the hobby afforded by these undersized systems , often 20gallons or less, did the hobby take off to the point of fostering multiple new resources such as Aquicultured fish, invertebrates, and live rock. The reef hobby is now the strongest group in the hobby that did not even exist some 30 years ago. 
I believe that lofts such as shown by “Wingsonfire” in his thread “http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/its-time-to-start-a-new-loft-47685.html

Another version on a smaller scale can be found here
http://www.pigeon-lung.co.uk/articlefiles/art_keithmott.html









The Rose Loft is a great step in the right direction however when you start by saying that it will cost over $500.00 to start in the hobby most are put off. 
We need for the experienced people to find out how the minimum dimensions needed for keeping and breeding our birds. We need an introductory loft to start beginners in the hobby.
This is my suggestion:


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## JRNY

You know what is ? Alot of people dont have carpentry skills and tools. Also if you dont have no help. A person will feel lost. My opinion when you building a loft like a house. Every stud 16 inches apart. To me thats over kill. Unless you have the money. My loft is 4 ft x 16 ft long 6 feet tall at a slant. I beleive I spent from $300 to $350. Shingles free on Craigslist. 
This is my first loft. 4 x 8 x 6. Maybe $200 Painted (oops paint from Homedepot $5) and perches and all that good stuff.










The 2nd lil loft is a 2 x4 x4 .Good for 2 to 4 birds. Maybe cost me 50 to 60 bucks. Plus I sold it. Dont remember for how much.


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## ptras

Wayne Johnson said:


> *We need an Introductory Loft for New Fanciers*
> I propose an idea for the general discussion of the pigeon forum members. I fear that the pigeon fancy may be in danger as are all traditional hobbies in this day of technological wonder. I propose that the hutch style of loft is a viable and desirable alternative to the walk in loft so often used at this time. A convenient parallel is the aquarium hobby in which I am an active participant also. Traditional freshwater aquariums were in decline as a hobby for some time until the recent advent of the Betta Vase of the ‘90s. These tiny vessels were initially reviled by the aquarium mainstream in spite of their popularity. In fact they served to introduce many people to the hobby and have contributed greatly to its popularity. Another more profound influence is that of the Mini-Reef aquarium. The original proponents stated that anything smaller than 55 gallons was unmanageable and strongly discredited. People new to the hobby were almost universally drawn by the smaller, micro-reef set ups that appeared in specialty stores. When the mainstream reef experts finally realized the viability and positive impact on the hobby afforded by these undersized systems , often 20gallons or less, did the hobby take off to the point of fostering multiple new resources such as Aquicultured fish, invertebrates, and live rock. The reef hobby is now the strongest group in the hobby that did not even exist some 30 years ago.
> I believe that lofts such as shown by “Wingsonfire” in his thread “http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/its-time-to-start-a-new-loft-47685.html
> 
> Another version on a smaller scale can be found here
> 
> The Rose Loft is a great step in the right direction however when you start by saying that it will cost over $500.00 to start in the hobby most are put off.
> We need for the experienced people to find out how the minimum dimensions needed for keeping and breeding our birds. We need an introductory loft to start beginners in the hobby.
> This is my suggestion:


I agree with you, but most people are going to need step-by-step instructions. That is why the Red Rose loft is so popular. You can follow the instructions and build it from scratch with little or no prior experience and simple tools that most people have. It also helps to provide a Bill of Materials with average costs so that people can make informed decisions.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Its safe to say you can't build any walk in loft of good quality for less than 500 dollars if you going to buy your materials What are you asking. Do you want people to design lofts for first timers that is cheaper than the red rose loft.


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## Wayne Johnson

smaller cheaper simpler
The "lil loft 2x4x4" is more of what I am thinking of.


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## First To Hatch

> The 2nd lil loft is a 2 x4 x4 .Good for 2 to 4 birds. Maybe cost me 50 to 60 bucks. Plus I sold it. Dont remember for how much.


Man I'm happy I didn't buy it I saw it on craigslist you were asking like 200-250$ I believe, but I bet if you built a couple like that and sold them cheaper (100-125$) it would be pretty cool to sell to people to get them interested in pigeons or even at pigeon auctions.


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## Shadybug Lofts

If u want something that small and cheep i would go to your local farm store and buy a rabbit hutch.


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## GEMcC5150

I think they have a point a small loft is a way to get started. Plans and material list would be simple. I'll work this up durring our Christmas trip north and post plan in Jan. I can't see why it couldn't be built for around $100.00


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## JRNY

Shadybug Lofts said:


> If u want something that small and cheep i would go to your local farm store and buy a rabbit hutch.



You cant compare this to a rabbit hutch. I beleive this is something good for a beginner. Not everybody has $1000 to by a 4x4 from Foys.

Its C h e a p. Not C h e e p.


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## chayi

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chayi/4888318093/
this is my small loft its about a 4x6 feet including the screen outside the loft and its about 6ft tall was my first loft for about 200 dollors and worked very well for my homers.


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## Wayne Johnson

Chayi, Your loft is great. Can you draw out the plan on Sketchup or similar? You obviously live in a very warm climate. Will these small lofts work where it is cold?

Somewhere on here there is a thread about a marine that turned his living room closet into a temporary loft. He used hutch style lofts for his homers and was very successful. I just cannot find the thread again.


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## Wayne Johnson

Chayi,

I hope you dont mind I wanted everyone to see your loft better.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Here's what i meant by rabbit hutch There are places to buy these everywhere here where i live I didn't get the pricing but the small hutches can't be that much. Most of these people will build you what you want. I had them quote me a price be for i built my last loft for one of their chicken houses 6x8 without the nest boxes on the outside and it was 700 but i could not get one in my yard. It wouldn't go between the house and the loft so i built one myself.


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## Shadybug Lofts




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## GEMcC5150

Wayne Johnson said:


> Chayi,
> 
> I hope you dont mind I wanted everyone to see your loft better.


This is what we are planning when we set up lofts for pastors here in Mexico. Simple, moveable, and low cost. That is the way to get people started.


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## JRNY

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Here's what i meant by rabbit hutch There are places to buy these everywhere here where i live I didn't get the pricing but the small hutches can't be that much. Most of these people will build you what you want. I had them quote me a price be for i built my last loft for one of their chicken houses 6x8 without the nest boxes on the outside and it was 700 but i could not get one in my yard. It wouldn't go between the house and the loft so i built one myself.
> 
> I totally understand no disrespect. We all know cheaper is not better. But if a person could start with a small loft. Not too expensive. Get the feeling of raising or racing pigeons with out putting a dent in there pocket. Some people start and quit. At least they didnt loose alot of money. Now the people that enjoy it you know they will expand like we all have. Then maybe they will get some better.
> 
> Example: 12 year kid goes to there parents and say I want a pigeon loft. It cost $700. Parents gonna think twice. Thats not counting feed pigeons etc.
> Now if the kid says it cost $150 to $200. He has a better chance of getting it. Dont you think? Hey he may have enough allowance money to get.


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## Shadybug Lofts

I'm not saying to spend 700 dollars. Those little hutches i showed are 100 or less i would think. If you have been to the lumber store lately it would be hard to build anything for less than 100 dollars if you have to buy everything. If you buy a couple hinges and a latch you have 20 dollars already. Its kind of a double edge sword when it comes to this. The kids have to start somewhere but putting pigeon in a little box is not good either.


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## JRNY

I found this site there pretty expensive. For what you get. My opinion.

http://www.rabbitcagesource.com/rab...oogleaw&kwid=Outdoor Rabbit Hutches&tid=broad


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wow You think those prices are high have you been to the store lately.


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## Wayne Johnson

This should use about 3 sheets of chip board. 7 2x4's.
It is 4 feet tall and deep. 2 feet wide. 30" off the ground with a wire bottom and a pull out drawer. It has handles to make it easier to move and a huge access door in the side to allow cleaning. Access doors at back to get to the breeding boxes.


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## billyr70

If money is a issue then people could try to find lumber used/free (look on crags list and they could find a small shed that someone is selling or giving away cheap, then just make a few changes and wa la, you have a starter loft) The last thing you want to do is not give the birds a good home, especially when you are learning and don't have experience. I think maybe save some extra money awhile you are reading and learning, then you could start out with a better home for the birds. (thats what i did and it worked for me) Nothing is cheap at the lumber yard now....


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## JRNY

Wayne Johnson said:


> This should use about 3 sheets of chip board. 7 2x4's.
> It is 4 feet tall and deep. 2 feet wide. 30" off the ground with a wire bottom and a pull out drawer. It has handles to make it easier to move and a huge access door in the side to allow cleaning. Access doors at back to get to the breeding boxes.



I like that Wayne. The only thing I am concerned about that I was with my small loft is a bird escaping. The wide door. But Wayne for a beginner thats great. Almost there.


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## Feathered Dragons

JRNY said:


> I found this site there pretty expensive. For what you get. My opinion.
> 
> http://www.rabbitcagesource.com/rab...oogleaw&kwid=Outdoor Rabbit Hutches&tid=broad


Yeah and I have seen those same ones in a store and they are JUNK. They are held together with staples. I built mine out of stuff left over from jobs and only laid $150 bucks out of pocket. My loft isnt perfect but its a starter loft.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1428


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## chayi

Wayne Johnson said:


> This should use about 3 sheets of chip board. 7 2x4's.
> It is 4 feet tall and deep. 2 feet wide. 30" off the ground with a wire bottom and a pull out drawer. It has handles to make it easier to move and a huge access door in the side to allow cleaning. Access doors at back to get to the breeding boxes.


Very nice job on the sketch wayne thats just about the same as my loft the only thing is that i build it 4 ft wide also very glad you could draw it up cause i really didnt know how. I used my starter loft and then moved up to a 8x8 and almost the same model now i use the 4x4 loft for a honeymoon suite


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## Andyfitz

As i am new in the sport I would have to agree with Shadybug. When you think of a loft you and the size you want it is already to small. When I went to the club for the first time the guys told me to build bigger than what I wanted. i did that and now I want more room already. As for the small hutches I think they are really creating an environment for overcrowding and setting up a new person for failure.


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## Wayne Johnson

I wonder if it is actually big enough? I wish some of the fanciers I have contacted would come and comment.


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## Wayne Johnson

Many have been successful with the Hutch loft.


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## JRNY

I have a bunch of racing magazines. Maybe a lil more then 75. Have them in both bathrooms to read at my quiet time. LoL. Let me see if anybody is familiar with story. The guy raced 2 birds. Thats all. AU I beleive. They went through his kitchen window and there nest box was one of the kitchen cabinets. They didnt beleive him. I beleive the president of the club came to the house to confirm. They didnt beleive it. All true. So the size of the loft depends on how many birds you wanna keep. You can train a pigeon to live anywhere.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne Johnson said:


> Many have been successful with the Hutch loft.


You would have to get rid of most of your birds that you hatch with one that small and im sure it would be hard for kids to give up there first birds and if its only a short time till you build bigger why not skip the hutch loft and save the money.


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## calzephyr

If it has not been mentioned already, the "Cull Bin" (aptly named) at Home Depot is a great place to get cheap lumber. I have been able to consistently get 1X4, 1X6, 1X8 and 1X10 pine boards each four foot long, plus smaller pieces of plywood, etc. Many times they have more pieces than i can use so I just sort through them and take the best ones. *51 cents a piece.*


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## TN_PIGEON

calzephyr said:


> If it has not been mentioned already, the "Cull Bin" (aptly named) at Home Depot is a great place to get cheap lumber. I have been able to consistently get 1X4, 1X6, 1X8 and 1X10 pine boards each four foot long, plus smaller pieces of plywood, etc. Many times they have more pieces than i can use so I just sort through them and take the best ones. *51 cents a piece.*


Shhhh. Don't give our secret away 

Yes, Home Depot does have a scrap wood section (usually back near the wood saws). They will cut wood for free and often the scrap pieces get put into a barrell and sold at a deep discount (sometimes it is free)

My definition of a beginer loft would be: made of 1 piece of plywood (2x8), a handful of boards, some welded wire, and requiring very simple carpentry skills.

For the hardware (hinges, clasps, etc.) the emphasis should be on using "free" stuff (you can make a simple hinge out of rope or leather).

I think a person can build a beginer box for <$50. Especially if they are resourceful with where they get their wood (with the popularity of flat screen TVs, everybody is tossing their entertainment centers to the curb).


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## Wayne Johnson

I went to SS today an looked at 24x24 1/2 wire cloth. I agree it is too narrow.
I need to rethink the dimentions. There is a video on www.colorpigeons.com that says his sections in his loft are 36" wide bit I missed the other two measurements. I believe it was 8x8. He keeps a dense flock. I want to keep either copper black wing archangels. I saw an ad in pure bred pigeon mag from California for rolling angels. He has worked on them for 20 years. He said they are half size of a bermingham roller, and less irridescent than an arch but do well. I can post his phone number if any are interested.


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## cdnmike10

Besides the materials list you also have to think the tools list as well...for you the idea of round trap holes is aesthetics but for someone with no building experience you just added a $30 tool they have to buy...keep it simple, if it can't be built with a hand saw, a tape measure and a hammer its already too complicated.


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## hillfamilyloft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJpOTDZsT-4&feature=related

For you guys that want to go small. Thought you would like this little loft.


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## maniac

That's interesting, no dimensions given but it seems to be smaller than 4'x 8'. The guy says he keeps 30+ birds which makes the 2 sq ft (per bird) rule you see advised here so often seem downright ludicrous.


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## hillfamilyloft

hillfamilyloft said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJpOTDZsT-4&feature=related
> 
> For you guys that want to go small. Thought you would like this little loft.


There are some more videos of the inside of his loft in the other videos. Pretty simple design. I like the way it funnels the birds to the trap.


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## TN_PIGEON

maniac said:


> That's interesting, no dimensions given but it seems to be smaller than 4'x 8'. The guy says he keeps 30+ birds which makes the 2 sq ft (per bird) rule you see advised here so often seem downright ludicrous.


Looks like he has more than one loft (check out the 1:10 of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRSuWJlc6HE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL)

Also, if you read some of the comments you will see he describes his young bird section (you can also see 2 traps)


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## hillfamilyloft

There is a loft to the side of this one. Just thought you guys might like this as a small loft. Say for a small team of fliers. A small Dozen bird back yard loft.


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## PigeonVilla

That truely is a nice little loft and well planned out , they seem to have no problem keeping it clean either and the birds seem to love it .


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## Wayne Johnson

Here is my most recent offering. A loft that is 48" deep, 40" wide and deep. attached avia







ry and cutting diagram for the three sheets of plywood.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Drop your sentence down


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## TN_PIGEON

Wayne Johnson said:


> Here is my most recent offering. A loft that is 48" deep, 40" wide and deep. attached aviary and cutting diagram for the three sheets of plywood.


Neat lil loft.

Just be sure to make some vent holes for those warm summer days.


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## Wayne Johnson

There is good ventilation due to the gap between the roof and the structure. The floors are all 1/2" welded wire cloth.


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## Wayne Johnson

Every cut can be made at Lowes or Home Depot. The round holes can be done with a $10.00 set of hole saws from Harbor Freight. This can be cut according to the cutting diagrams, taken home and assembled with a power drill, screws, wire staples, hammer, Tin snips will be needed for cutting the hardware cloth. A jig saw or power saw would make doors in the sides to allow access.

The size of the front panel is wrong. It should be much shorter to allow a gap at the bottom between the wood and the wire floor.


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## Wingsonfire

Wayne Johnson said:


> Every cut can be made at Lowes or Home Depot. The round holes can be done with a $10.00 set of hole saws from Harbor Freight. This can be cut according to the cutting diagrams, taken home and assembled with a power drill, screws, wire staples, hammer, Tin snips will be needed for cutting the hardware cloth. A jig saw or power saw would make doors in the sides to allow access.
> 
> The size of the front panel is wrong. It should be much shorter to allow a gap at the bottom between the wood and the wire floor.


Looks Nice Wayne, just remember that what ever you do there will be some type of criticism and not all or it constructive lol... Keep up the good work in the design department of the beginners loft or the one that is on a buget...


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## TN_PIGEON

Looking good. 

I'm also a big believer in adding a small access door so you don't have to open the entire loft up just to add water and feed.

Also, a 2nd hole with a door for the aviary is probably not a bad idea. That way you can close it off if/when you need to.


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## Shadybug Lofts

What program do you use to draw that.


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## Wayne Johnson

It is a free program from Google called Sketchup. It has a lot of video tutorials that even I can follow.


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## Wayne Johnson

I developed bad allergies to parrot feather dust back when I raised parrots and other hookbills. That is another reason i am attracted to the hutch style of loft.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne Johnson said:


> I developed bad allergies to parrot feather dust back when I raised parrots and other hookbills. That is another reason i am attracted to the hutch style of loft.


 I always wear a mask when im in the loft. I will check that program out when i get home we only have dial up here at work. Thanks


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## Wayne Johnson

I believe this version has it all. Four nest boxes, 12x20x12. Two access doors for each nest box. Spit primary access door in side. 5" trap holes and exit to flight area so they will be used to using the holes for enter and exit. Hinged doors to cover trap holes that is also the landing board on top of the flight. Wire floor with removable droppings tray. Two smaller access doors in the back to allow for food and water with minimal escape risk. Approx 44.36 Cubic Feet of space inside. All from four sheets of plywood and five 2x4's. All cut can be made at Lowes or Home Depot. Holes are made with a 5" hole saw from Harbor Freight for $8.00. The most complicated part is cutting out all of those doors.


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## Wayne Johnson




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## Wayne Johnson




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## sport14692

Thats cool drawings ma baw


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## JK142

*Newbie*

Hello All,

I plan on building a small coup, likely will follow the excellent plans provided by Wayne. I live in Oakdale, CA and I will soon be looking to purchase young homing pigeons.
I will be using these pigeons to train my field trial pointing dogs. Pigeons are used because they can be released, homed and used again and again. Please let me know if there is any one near me that may have some young birds for sale. I would only want three or four pair at the most. I currently have just one young dog, so I do not need many pigeons.

Any good advice you can provide a newbie would be greatly appreciated (feeders, feed, waters, etc.)

Thank you. This site has already been a great resource for me.


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## Wayne Johnson

The pigeons are not harmed in any way right?


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## Wingsonfire

Wayne Johnson said:


> The pigeons are not harmed in any way right?


No way that I can do that Wayne, keep it going buddy!!


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## JK142

No. Various ways of using pigeons when training a pointing dog. the dogs smell the bird, they point it, the bird is released and flies back home.


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## vangimage

Alot of good idea gentlemen. Yes in order to attract new members and fanciers to this hobbie of pigeon keeping. Cost has to be low. Most people do not have the the money nor the time to build a high end/ big loft. A newbie, My self included. Will not spend the money even if they have it if they themselves are not sure how long they will stay with this hobby. So we, breeders and other associated with pigeons need to ease the pain. We can give away a few of our culled birds to a newbie. For those who have very good stock, thier culls are still better than some outthere being sold for rediculous amounts. If we want this hobby to continue we must do our part. When I first started If I was told that a certain bird is 100-500, for either one pair or one bird I would not get in to it. Thats just way too much money. Any thing is only worth what some one is willing to pay. The more a fancier knows about a breed, and the more serious he gets, he will see the value in purchasing a 100-500 dollar bird. Just my thoughts hope I did not offend anyone.


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## lostflight

Hi Wayne, I like your sketches on Google. They reminded me of how I started, I built a 3' square hutch with an aviary. The birds did great, multiplied fast and I quickly expanded onto a bigger one. I gave my first loft to my nephew and started him with a few birds.

The small loft allowed me as a kid to become a fancier without having to get a full time job to pay for it. The fancy is for all classes of society and all ages, it should not be limited only to the rich. Pigeons are not picky, they don't need mansions and hot tea. Everyone deserves to try with pigeons if they desire to.

I support your idea of a small "hutch" style loft, growing up I have met people that started with and still use hutch style lofts to be as successful as those with glamorous sheds. Some do even better cause they have less space and less birds to manage. Pigeon fancy should not be limited by one's budget but by their dedication.


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## sufiness

*Introductory Loft.*

*After moving house and initially not having my own yard I decided to build a small little pigeon loft on the small balcony. Basically the intention was to keep one pair of birds to breed from and have some flyers.

I decided to keep Iranian Highflying Tumblers as opposed to Birmingham rollers which I had previously. IRanian Tumblers tend to be flown in few numbers as opposed to BR's which are flowin it kits of 20's.

This are some pics of what I have at present. I use the bottom half for the breeding prayer and the top as the Kit/Flight box. 

It was relatively simple to make from thin plywood and 2 by 2's. It only took a couple of hours to put it together. heights about 6 feet on legs, widht 50 cm and length 1m.

Its had a little wear now so looks a bit rough but I think its a very simple ideal introductory loft.*



















some pics of the inside so you can see how the pigeons perch:

















*However my breeding prayer over the past 2 years has given me approximately 11 off spring. In the first year I used a pair of BR's as sitters. Thus its time for me to build another loft. I have had someone build up a frame for me 7feet by 3.3ft. i need to split in two so any Ideas welcome especially because I am moving them down and I see cats as a big pottential problem.
*


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## red2x

*Starter Loft*

Here is my first loft. It's roughly 4x4x4. Although it's quite small it works very well for small numbers of birds.


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## Wayne Johnson

That is fantastic! When did you build this? I wonder how air tight we really need these things to be. The pictures of old roof top lofts in NY look very open to me. I wonder if a welded wire door would work or if it would be too cold. I dont intend to breed in the winter anyway. Thank you so much for posting this. I believe this is exactly what we need. It is very functional but not too intimidating for new people to start into the hobby. I believe that the future of this hobby is with people our age 40+. Demographics show we are a majority now.


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## red2x

How weather tight would depend on the region you live in I guess. I'm in Minnesota. It's currently 5 degrees and I have 4 pairs on eggs as I type. My design does have a wire floor but I've designed a slide in tray below it so I can slide it out every week or so and scrape it into the trash bin. With the tray in place, it's draft free which is the big thing. 
I have the design in sketchup and I could get more photos if you like. I designed is to be efficient, cost effective and portable (two people can easily carry it when fully assembled). It only 3 sheets of plywood along with some 2x, 1x lumber and minimal hardware.


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## Wayne Johnson

I am a big fan of sketchup. Please sent the file to [email protected]


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## Shadybug Lofts

What do you do crawl in there to check the babies?


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## red2x

Ha. I guess that could be a problem for some if they build this loft. I'm 6'-4" so I have no issues seeing/reaching into the far corners. You could just cut the legs shorter though.


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## Wayne Johnson

Shadybug,
Do you think doors on both sides would be good enough access, or would the addess door to each nest box be better?
I'm leaning toward, flight/sputnikish on front, doors on both sides. I wonder about putting wire cloth in the inside of the doors and a cut out panel of plywood on front so that the loft could be very open in the warmer months and closed up in the winter. The access doors to each nest seems a bit excessive to me.


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## JT

What a great thread to browse through 

In 1990 I started out with a kitchen cabinet like this one (_just replace glass with a screen!_). I kept each pair in one section  I used the bottom part for storage.

Then when I got more pigeons and YBs, I built small lofts as I needed them.









http://www.mcdunnstudio.com/images/Website Update - Sale/Corner Cabinet.JPG

You probably can find something like this for free or cheap on craigslist!

Think of a loft as a box to keep your birds safe.... Not a museum!!!

Good times,


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne Johnson said:


> Shadybug,
> Do you think doors on both sides would be good enough access, or would the addess door to each nest box be better?
> I'm leaning toward, flight/sputnikish on front, doors on both sides. I wonder about putting wire cloth in the inside of the doors and a cut out panel of plywood on front so that the loft could be very open in the warmer months and closed up in the winter. The access doors to each nest seems a bit excessive to me.


 Its not excessive its smart. Just think standing out there in the fresh air, opening doors and checking eggs, and putting bands on the babies, or reaching in 4' and try to get the babies to band them, and cleaning the nest box is another matter, all while sucking in all that pigeon dust. Its a no brainer. I would put a door at the back of each nest box, Then you could open and check each nest box, and make it without a edge on the bottom so you could scrape it out there. That is one thing i was going to do on my old loft but never did it, and i have been kicking my #$# ever since.


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## dogging_99

My first loft.


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## Wayne Johnson

That is fantastic!
Is the dog run covered? Is it an aviary/flight?
I really like the use of a modified Sputnik on the front. Looks very sharp. No neighbor would complain of that in the yard.
Thanks for posting the specs and plans.
Wayne


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## Reiki3

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Its not excessive its smart. Just think standing out there in the fresh air, opening doors and checking eggs, and putting bands on the babies, or reaching in 4' and try to get the babies to band them, and cleaning the nest box is another matter, all while sucking in all that pigeon dust. Its a no brainer. I would put a door at the back of each nest box, Then you could open and check each nest box, and make it without a edge on the bottom so you could scrape it out there. That is one thing i was going to do on my old loft but never did it, and i have been kicking my #$# ever since.


How do you contain the birds when you open the outside door to check eggs or clean? Do you go in and lock them out of the nest box? It wouldn’t really matter if they weren’t prisoners, but if they are you could have a problem. I like the idea of being out in the clean air. I get tired of putting on my respirator every time when I go into the loft (all most every time). I’m more than sure with your skills you can figure a way of cutting the side down to the bottom of the nest box and make new doors.


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## Shadybug Lofts

I would just open the door very slow to make sure they don't escape, all my birds that are sitting stay tight on the nest you have to pull them off. I would just put the birds through the door in the nest front and close it. You would be defeating the purpose if you went inside and put the birds out first. I put a respirator on every time too and i hate it. I'm not going to use the old loft for breading anymore, so im not woried about the doors.


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## Shadybug Lofts

dogging_99 said:


> My first loft.


Nice little loft you got there it has everything you need. Nice construction job.


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## Shadybug Lofts

I don't understand why when everybody builds these nice little 4x4 or 6x6 lofts they put the up on stilts, why wouldn't you spend a couple more bucks and build it to the ground so you could walk in to it. Its just something i think about every time i see one.


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## Ted P

If you put it on the ground you'd have to get down on tour knee's and crawl in because its only 4' tall. Many times these lofts are built on a budget. Small,
so its more convenient and comfy putting it higher.


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## JRNY

With a 4x4 make sure you have some knee pads. With your height level it helps alot.


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## Shadybug Lofts

No, I mean put 4 more sheets around the bottom and make it 8' tall so you can walk in, the framing is already there. It would make them so much nicer, just put the floor that you have anyway one foot off the ground, 2 more sheets of plywood cut in half around the frame and make the door longer and there you have a walk in loft.


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## Wayne Johnson

Ya' know, you have a very good point...


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## Wayne Johnson

Here are my thoughts about using an elevated hutch style loft.
1.	The work area is at waste level so minimal bending over required.
2.	The floor does not have to be able to support human weight so a thinner and less expensive floor can be used. 
3.	Air flow through and around the loft should be enhanced keeping it cooler in the summer. Removing the tray from the bottom would add tremendous air flow.
4.	Moisture controlled by the floor being up away from the wicking action of the soil.
5.	Looks much less like an outhouse (snicker, snicker)
6.	There are far fewer places for snakes and mice to hide or enter the loft. 
7.	It is very portable so it can be moved much easier than a full loft.
8.	Proven to be less likely to cause pigeon keeper’s lung disease.
9.	Entrance doors are up and away from little hands and feet.
10.	Avoids “stink eye” from the neighbors because it looks much less permanent than a fully constructed loft.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, Do you have pigeons now or did you ever have pigeons. Just curious.


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## Wayne Johnson

At one time I raised parrots. For a while I had 40 birds.


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## Wayne Johnson

I had blue front conures, senegals, Quakers, cocktails, I even had a breeding pair of peafowl.


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## Wayne Johnson

I have enjoyed this forum very much I expected someone to counter argue the ten points I just made up for discussion. I hope to have pigeons when move this summer.


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## Wayne Johnson

Negatives for a hutch style loft
1. Similar expense of a full loft.
2. Interior must be reached from outside with a door open.
3. You must stand outside in bad weather to work with the birds
4. Interaction with birds limited by the shape of the loft.
5. No storage areas close to birds.
6. A door must be open when specific birds have to be caught.
Escape risk is much higher.
7. Much harder to have close contact with breeding pairs on eggs.
8. More difficult to mow around.
9. Portable means light and top-heavy may be more likely to turn over in wind.
10. Harder to fit into a landscape design.
11. Will always look like a doghouse on stilts


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## Shadybug Lofts

I was going to but you didnt give me enough time. LOL


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, Do you want to work on a loft design i was going to do before i did mine, I would like to see someone build it since i didn't, and i have no more room to build another one.


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## Wayne Johnson

I would consider it an honor. It will be fun for both of us.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Ok, Its pretty simple, I will try to explain it, Two lofts they will look like out houses just 4' x 6' facing each other, The roof from front to back on a outhouse but turn them facing each other 6' apart they will be 2' off the ground The frame can be one piece because the aviary will be in the middle between the two.The roof to the aviary will be slanting from the front to the back, under the overhang of the lofts The doors will be on the side one door on each loft and 2 doors on the aviary because it will have a removable sliding divider solid so the birds can't see each other. The vents and holes for the birds to enter will be on the aviary side so you don't have to worry about rain getting in them. The only wire will be on the front and back of the aviary and the floor. Slated floors of course and a flip up door in the back of each loft and a pull out scraping board kinda like my old loft. I hope you understand all that. Gary Ps They will be tall enough to walk in.


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## Wayne Johnson

I'm working on it. I'm kinda slow at this. Big projects take alot of work.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, Take your time, There no hurry. Did you understand everything?


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## Wayne Johnson

This is not actually what you described but a version of it. The green are doors through the lock and to each flight, then to each loft. It is much more secure.


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## Wayne Johnson

You can see here the front. The entrancedoor leads to two doors to internal flights (back wall is wire). It is set up so flights can be added on the front for each.


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## Wayne Johnson

This is the back without siding. You can see the flow of foot traffic. Come in front door. Through one of the two sides, walkthrough the inside aviary for the chosen side. Then enter a door to a three foot wide hallway that will be set up like Shadybuds nests. The door to the loft area probably needs to be at the other end of the hall so that the end can be used for a storage area and work area.


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## Wayne Johnson

This is another view of the back. Remember the back wall of the aviaries will be open the the outside air through use of wire.


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## Shadybug Lofts

That doesn't look anything like i was thinking but thats a cool looking loft. Good job.


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## Wayne Johnson




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## Wayne Johnson

I believe this is more of what you described. just each loft is 8x8


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## Shadybug Lofts

Yes, but shorten the roofs on each side and slant the aviary roof front to the back, loft size really doesn't matter. If anyone builds it they can make it any size.
A door on each side in the front and a door in the front of each aviary.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, This is kinda what i was thinking, the aviary should be wider and the aviary roof slants from front to back between the two lofts.


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## raftree3

Is this kind of the idea?


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## Shadybug Lofts

Yes it is, but make the left side like the right side and the aviary roof is flat and slants from front to back, but the thats close. Thanks


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## Rafael/PR

Hi everyone

just showing you the loft i build out of pvc and chicken wire , cost me about $50 to build, i live in puerto rice where it always warm so i don't have to worry much about cold weather, this loft is 4 feet by 3 feet by 2 ft without the stand, with the add another 3 ft in height.the loft is 2 year old now , i just added the trap 4 months ago,


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## Wingsonfire

Rafael/PR said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> just showing you the loft i build out of pvc and chicken wire , cost me about $50 to build, i live in puerto rice where it always warm so i don't have to worry much about cold weather, this loft is 4 feet by 3 feet by 2 ft without the stand, with the add another 3 ft in height.the loft is 2 year old now , i just added the trap 4 months ago,


That looks nice, I am sure some here will get some ideas from yours for sure


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## NayNay

Well, I am the Queen of inexpensive construction- but new to pigeons. Still, I will share my methods. I built an 8x8 tree house with a sloping 12 ft tall roof- to accommodate a sleeping loft- and a 4x8 deck on the front for less than $20. It was an exercise in scavenging really- and a challenge. I was out of work, and it was summer vacation, so, my son and I wandered all over the county picking up free lumber off of Craigslist. Tons and Tons of awesome lumber. The walls are made mostly of pallets- which are excellent for framing. The exterior in clad in recycled cedar fencing- which gives it a wonderful aged look. all windows, doors, and nails/screws were free from our local recycled building supply store. They gave me credit for some old interior doors, trim, etc that I donated. The roof was free from a friend who ordered too many metal panels for a project he was working on. Interior walls got covered i nice plywood paneling- also free from Craigslist. So, yeah, I got lucky, and it took some effort- but it turned out great, and it even has an awesome full size sofa in there that was also free from Craigslist. So, I think the secret to budget building is to let the materials determine design- to a certain extent. Esp when it comes down to osb/t-111/plywood. They can be pretty spendy, so for sure minimize waste- and simplify construction by building 8x4, etc. 
I am planning my loft at the moment, eyeballing the lumber, misc beams, etc that I still have in my lumber stockpile, and figuring out my plans based on what I have, and what I can get for cheap. Using this same technique, I also built a 150 sq ft sunroom on the back of my house for 200 bucks! 2x4's are cheap- and for a loft, 2x2's are even cheaper. 

Anyway, for the less scavengerish folks, perhaps I will design a small and inexpensive loft over my spring break- I can draw it up in AutoCad, since I am in school for civil engineering. But to me it seems like inexpensive is a better goal than small. Small doesn't give you much chance to completely enjoy the hobby- racing And raising. But, perhaps something modular that can be easily added to if someone gets started with pigeons- and then they want More. That roseloft works that way. 

Ok, I will pick up the gauntlet- and take feedback on my completed design (once I have one....) because, like I said, I am still designing my own first loft, and looking into what elements to incorporate.


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## Wayne Johnson

I believe you are right on target. Best not least is the way to go.


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## bhymer

What do you think are the dimensions of the Tyson racing loft ???????


----------



## West

A friend gave me these pics awhile back and remembered I had them. Figured they would be a good starter for someone new to the birds.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## NayNay

Well, I threw together a little outhouse design that could easily be built for less than 50 bucks. I'm planning on building mine as a larger version of this, cuz I have the room, and I'd rather start with something that will work for a while, instead of something the birds would grow out of. 

Anyway, I figure use pallets for the foundation to save dough- no need for joists, and you can use thinner ply for the flooring. Screen in the triangle at roof level to make construction simpler, and keep the air flowing. 

I am planning mine based on 2 jumbo pallets I just got- they are about 7 x 3 each. Plus I have a good pile of free lumber I have scavenged over the years, so I intend to spend less than 100 bucks. We'll see how it goes. My YB's are newborns, and not due to arrive until May, so I have time to work the details out.


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## newtopidgeons

the problem I had with making small lofts is, it isnt that much more expensive to go bigger. I dont know how to explain it better but twice as big doesnt take twice the lumber which then doesnt cost twice as much. you could build this 4x8 instead with only 2 more sheets of plywood. and 6x8 with 3 more sheets. and ofcourse you would need a few more boards per upgrade but im shure you will have over $100 in any loft of decent size.


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## NayNay

Yes- I agree, bigger is not twice or 3 times as expensive. Small is only for if you don't have room for big. IMHO, since this is a intro loft challenge, I would say build bare bones big enough to be functional- like you suggested- 4x8, 6x8- and if the person decides they don't like raising pigeons, turn the loft into a tool shed. 

Or, if someone wants to get into it cheaper, then use whatever free rabbit hutch/old cabinet, etc that you can get from Craigslist.

I'll be able to build mine-maybe not including interior fixtures- for well under 100. 2x4's are cheap, old windows are free, plywood, 8-10 bucks a sheet. I am fortunate to live 3 blocks from a place that was selling recycled building materials way before it was cool. They have contracts with the state to take out all the materials from the schools- elementary- university. That place is a treasure trove- and super cheap. Plus, I have my stash of free lumber.  I anticipate my biggest expense to be the hardware cloth- can't remember how much that cost me when I redid my chicken enclosure to save them from relentless raccoon attacks. Anyway, it'll be fun. I just know that a buddy spent so much money building his kids a playhouse that he refused to allow the numbers to stay in is brain - he did not want to know. I would bet he spent close to a grand. Got it built quick, it looks real nice, etc. But a person could do the same using recycled materials as much as possible- esp if like me they have more time than money. My buddy, he has way more money than time, so his way made sense for him. Especially since he can't build much of anything, and was relying on the skills of his friends/labor pool.


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## newtopidgeons

I wish we had one of those recyled building material places close. Most of the time the stuff on craigslist is even too far.


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## NayNay

That's a drag! It makes it so much easier to build stuff cheap. Plus, they give store credit for donations- and also sell old furniture, so I can take them a table I have been unable to sell, and get credit to buy stuff in their store. They have Everything. It's pretty awesome. I also need to check out the "Habitat for Humanity" store- further away from me- next town over, but supposed to have lots of good stuff. 

I keep thinkin that one of the free campers/travel trailers, etc could become a loft. Those are on CL all the time.


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## NayNay

Oh- and that one West put up looks like a winner for someone new and not sure, or with limited space.


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## newtopidgeons

West said:


> A friend gave me these pics awhile back and remembered I had them. Figured they would be a good starter for someone new to the birds.
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


We Changed this a little and have a 2'x2' cage to hook to the front for an aviary. $8 and scrap material. I ripped maybe 4, 8' 2x6's so maybe around $50 or less if built with "store bought" materials.
We know he cant fit many in here but he is not expecting to.


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## swagg

Man every time i read this thread it feels like a challenge. I really think you could make sometime similar to the red rose loft for under $ 200. Anyone want to donate $ and I'll see if I can do it


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## newtopidgeons

Its cost me $320 for materials for a redrose loft as per thier list and shopping around.
Even though I changed alot that is what i paid... the first round. lol


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## swagg

newtopidgeons said:


> Its cost me $320 for materials for a redrose loft as per thier list and shopping around.
> Even though I changed alot that is what i paid... the first round. lol


Yeah I guess its just the carpenter in me, but i would change the design to save money. It would still look super nice and function the same, just cost a lot less.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Newtopigeons, Why isn't your tin laying flat


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## newtopidgeons

I think it is an optical ilusion or else I fixed it because i went out and checked it. Its not new tin but better than the piece on the ground.


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## NayNay

As long as it keeps the rain out, you are good to go.


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## newtopidgeons

It does stay dry, I think Reggie will enjoy it.


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## Wayne Johnson

I have been watching all of your posts and lofts. I think this is the design i will use. I think the top over hang will keep rain out of the trap. The floor is a Shadybug with floor joists rather than rods. The width is 6 feet, length is 8 feet. The aviary is 2 feet.


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## newtopidgeons

I think that looks like a very good idea. Only it will be hard to balance a sttleing cage over the traps.


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## rcwms90

I FELL QUITE BAD! im suppose to be a graphic designer an i suck at that sketchup program lol an chad i cant wait to get it i had lose the pic of it because my old computer broke now I HAVE IT BACK. lol btw i seen this loft on youtube lately the guy says its a $100 one since everyone else is posting lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMAjkfopB4


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## Wayne Johnson

Hey Shadeybug,

This is an idea I have been working on. Use the inside furniture such as the breeding pens and box perches as a structural part of the loft. It does several things. It ties the two horizontal sheets of ply on the back wall together strongly and becomes a major part of the roof.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Hey you may have something there, nest boxes strengthening one side and box perches on another.


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## newtopidgeons

rcwms90 said:


> I FELL QUITE BAD! im suppose to be a graphic designer an i suck at that sketchup program lol an chad i cant wait to get it i had lose the pic of it because my old computer broke now I HAVE IT BACK. lol btw i seen this loft on youtube lately the guy says its a $100 one since everyone else is posting lol
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMAjkfopB4


I would add a little to the $100 for wire upgrade atleast, that house window screen he used is garbage for protection.
And your loft is safe here my friend, I just feel bad I cant go ahead and get it over there to you.
Maybe things will look up for us a little soon and we will get it to its home.


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## Shadybug Lofts

He sure works fast.


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## NayNay

Wayne Johnson said:


> Hey Shadeybug,
> 
> This is an idea I have been working on. Use the inside furniture such as the breeding pens and box perches as a structural part of the loft. It does several things. It ties the two horizontal sheets of ply on the back wall together strongly and becomes a major part of the roof.


Wayne- you are an awesomely innovative thinker. Since I may be building a separate breeding loft sooner rather than later, I might be giving this design a real world test.


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## Wayne Johnson

I am unable to build until we get moved and settled. I want everything in place long before I get any birds.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, Could you biuld the panels before you move, that would give you something to work on, then just asemble them when you move.


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## NayNay

Now going back to the design previous to the one where the nestboxes are part of the wall, I just noticed that the traps are right up under that roof- I am still as green as can be on all this stuff, but I would be concerned about it not being more visible to birds, and or more open for them to feel confident trapping. Also, would there be a landing board?


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## Wayne Johnson

The roof would be the landing board.


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## Wayne Johnson

I have just finished my internship as a school psychologist. We are still looking for a position. Several interviews but no offers yet. We don't know where we will end up.


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## Aqua_il

My father was a school psychologist for years. He is retiring (forcibly) this year. There have been a lot of cut backs and his job is one of them. Of course he is at the top of the payscale with his experience, they like hiring newer people.


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## Wayne Johnson

This is a layout of the nest boxes and perches. The boxes are on both ends of the loft with perches in the middle. the perches are 12" wide and 4" deep. The Nest boxes are 
24" x 12" x 12".


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## Wayne Johnson

The image shows the nest boxes on both sides and the perches in between. I know they will need fronts on them. Do you think this configuration is good? Can you suggest something better. Thanks, I promise I won't consider criticism as flames. The boxes are 24"x12x12. Box perches are 12"wide x 6" with 6" gap behind for cleaning.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Looks good Wayne, I like it.


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## NayNay

I like it too. So, as this is the introductory loft challenge, is this meant to be a loft that can get a fancier through a year or 2? A breeding/racing loft combo? Or just a breeding loft?

Just curious re intent.


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## Wayne Johnson

I think there is room for lots of ideas. My focus has changed for now. Originally I wanted to explore "least needed", now I'm thinking "best with least". The loft is a machine, it must work to provide protection from the elements and predators, maintain a healthy environment for it's residents, and provide a physical environment that supports their social and biological needs. The Red Rose loft is a great step in the right direction. The design is sound and well tested by many fanciers. It looks nice in a landscape design and is versatile in function. I realized that spending $100.00 on a small loft doomed to be outgrown in one season may be counter productive. That same amount of resource could be applied to a better construction and have a better chance for success. I believe the hutch style of loft is very promising and may actually be a better choice for some, particularly those who live in ag zone 7 and up.
Just some thoughts,
Wayne


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## rpalmer

Wayne Johnson said:


> Box perches are 12"wide x 6" with 6" gap behind for cleaning.


 I would make the gap in the rear much less. IMO ... 6" is plenty of room for a pigeon to back up when trying to be caught and it could easily fall or otherwise escape. If you replaced the 6" "floor" with an 8" "floor" an set them back another 2" ,I think your machine would work better. Just my 2 cents.

I also think that it is easier and less work to have a solid back to scrape from. with the gap in the rear you will wind up scraping the wall also. But that's just me. Take care and have fun.


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## Wayne Johnson

so, it would work better with no gap in the back. I was thinking of scraping back and then sweep the floor afterward. Thanks. I think you may be correct about poop on the back wall. I have seen several lofts on here with the slanted board on the back of the perch. Would that solve the problem or would they just poop over it?


----------



## NayNay

rpalmer said:


> I would make the gap in the rear much less. IMO ... 6" is plenty of room for a pigeon to back up when trying to be caught and it could easily fall or otherwise escape. If you replaced the 6" "floor" with an 8" "floor" an set them back another 2" ,I think your machine would work better. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> I also think that it is easier and less work to have a solid back to scrape from. with the gap in the rear you will wind up scraping the wall also. But that's just me. Take care and have fun.


Mine have about 4 inches between back of perch and wall. So far working out well- a few smaller birds have fallen when being captured, but I do like just scraping back, and sweeping. Super quick and easy. 

As for an introductory loft idea, that could leave easy room for expansion, how about emphasizing a sheltered aviary as primary use of space, with a smaller hutch or outhouse style loft as nighttime/extreme weather protection? This would allow the birds to have lots of fresh air and sunshine, and also be safe- while also being something that could be added onto easily later, by attaching a larger loft to the other end of the aviary. 

I am actually getting ready to do something like this for my prisoners/next years breeders, cuz I have a breeder section being used for a late hatch, and 8 new babies in with my prisoners in the racing section. So, I am going to expand out from the breeder side with a large flying aviary for the prisoners/breeders- and house my prisoners there for at least a few months while I work on training the YB's- aka next years OB team.


----------



## rpalmer

Wayne Johnson said:


> so, it would work better with no gap in the back. I was thinking of scraping back and then sweep the floor afterward. Thanks. I think you may be correct about poop on the back wall. I have seen several lofts on here with the slanted board on the back of the perch. Would that solve the problem or would they just poop over it?


I think it will be the same with just an angle.  Then you'll have to reach back and scrape the angle. I don't know how one can scrape and then sweep. There will always be fresh droppings. I guess you would have a funky broom. A closed back is really no extra work. 

Take care.


----------



## NayNay

rpalmer said:


> I think it will be the same with just an angle.  Then you'll have to reach back and scrape the angle. I don't know how one can scrape and then sweep. There will always be fresh droppings. I guess you would have a funky broom. A closed back is really no extra work.
> 
> Take care.


I use my flat shovel to scoop it under the perches, then broom up all the misc dust and fluff. But, perches are a thing that everyone has a preference for. I just really enjoy the shove shove off the back approach- I can give a quick scrape whenever I go in, and deal with whatever has gather underneath whenever. Plus, they tend to hang their rumps over the back ledge, so most of the poop is already in a tidy little pile.


----------



## Greek Boy

Wayne- a 2" space between end of perch and wall is more than enough to srcrape droppings and push out the back. 1" is good enough. Start at the top and work down. Some droppings will land on perch below. 1"to 2" is small enough for a bird not to fall threw when backing up to avoid your hands when going to handle them. They learn very fast to stop at end of perch with their feet. The 1"to 2" gap will also allow air to pass making the droppings dry faster on the perch via ventilation. I always left a 1" space from the wall in my nestboxes for the same reasons above.- Nick


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## Wayne Johnson

Thanks Nick.


----------



## Wingsonfire

Wayne Johnson said:


> Thanks Nick.


I agree 2 inches is fine and is pretty much to the ideal, my are 2.5 but I do not think i would put them more than that... I would say that most are 1.5 inches as that is the width of a 2x4 stud..


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## Wayne Johnson

I was wandering about the slanted perches?


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## Greek Boy

Wayne- the perches with the slanted rear are also spaced from the wall for droppings to fall threw and air to circulate. It also allows the bird not to rest and sleep in its droppings. To clean, each perch individually lifts out or just scrape in place. Wingsonfire made a beautiful set for his new loft on his thread - This is the last one (loft)- and it also shows a perch removed. These can be seen on pages 10,11, and installed on page 16. I must say a very well done job. Nick..


----------



## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, If you get time, I need a drawing of the red Rose loft aviary with the doors taken off and a square aviary built out from that with a roof that slants out from the original roof, wire all the way around and a door in the side. Im thinking of doing it to mine but i want to see what it would look like first. Thanks Gary


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## Wayne Johnson

Sure! It will be a couple of days. Family are in for the weekend. Thanks for asking.
Wayne


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## Shadybug Lofts

Ok, No hurry, spend time with the family. Gary


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## Wayne Johnson

I know this is not exactly what you wanted but I had to start somewhere.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Thats close, but i want to put it right on the slanted aviary just remove the doors and bolt it on The aviary looks ok but the roof on the loft has more angle.


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## Wayne Johnson

This is a Red Rose loft. I dont understand what you want to do.

What doors are you talking about?

Do you want the same roof line with a square aviary on front rather than the triangular one?


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## Shadybug Lofts

Look at my loft, its the first one on my, post your lofts here thread. I want to take all the doors off the aviary and make a square aviary fit in that hole with a slanted roof, and a door on the side. I don't want to do anything with the loft except remove the doors and screw it on, then if i want to remove it and put the doors back on I can. If i can i will do a rough drawing and post it. I just want to make a frame out of 2x4s and cover it with wire with a door and a roof. Thanks Gary


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, I made a rough drawing and will post it tonight when i get home. It just a side view.


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## Wayne Johnson

Cool! Look forward to it.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Wayne, and maybe 2 legs down to hold the weight


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## Owls_N_Frills

Hi, I am very new to pigeons still, but this is the portable loft that I am planning to have built later this summer. 









While I don't think I will "win" this Challenge LOL, I feel this hutch-style loft will allow me to have the most room available to the birds, while still making it easily portable if needed. I plan to have the flight pen built so that it can be moved separately from the loft as well. The flight pen will be roofed, and floored & sided in 1/4" or 1/2" hardware cloth. I plan on keeping fancy birds, which seem to enjoy walking around more, so the flight pen vs small aviary was important to me. 

PS: Thank you to WingsonFire's loft construction thread for the idea of the 2-part door into the loft-portion, so I can be sure the birds won't escape.


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## NayNay

Owls and Frills- I have been starting to believe that you are on the right track for an inexpensive starter loft- depending on climate and such. I am working on an aviary addition to my current loft, and am going to incorporate a small hutch onto it to give me more flexibility in sorting my birds by developmental stage, season, and my intentions for them. In other words- someplace to house the future breeders/prisoners while I am flying the flyers and breeding the breeders- lol. Kind of a 3 season concept, with everyone in the main loft separated by gender during the off season.


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## Wayne Johnson

What kind of pigeons are you planning on having? Homers would do ok but rollers would doe even better. Rollers are smaller and need less room.


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## Owls_N_Frills

Thanks for the comments Nay Nay, that's somewhat what I was thinking too... It won't last forever I am sure, but I can always use it as a breeder or young bird loft in addition to a new one if I end up with enough birds!




Wayne Johnson said:


> What kind of pigeons are you planning on having? Homers would do ok but rollers would doe even better. Rollers are smaller and need less room.


I already have some homers, and they are in a stationary 10'x8'x8' loft with 8'x16' flight pen. I would really like to have some fancy birds too, but I have not yet settled a breed. (see thread: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/what-breed-55179.html) Of the breeds mentioned, I think the Old Dutch Capuchins and the Fantails are the prettiest, and I am interested in the two pouter breeds mentioned as well. I am still researching all of the breeds, so no set one yet. 

My plan is to start out with just a couple pairs. Based on everything I have read regarding space requirements, 8-10 birds would be comfortable in a loft this size, especially with the 2 levels: 4'x4' inside, and the covered bottom / flight level being a total of 4'x8'. I wish I could do another large loft, but my husband's requirement for this "fancy" loft (due to space restrictions) is that it be easily portable between 2 people, and I am practically 5-foot nothing


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## NayNay

Owls_N_Frills said:


> Thanks for the comments Nay Nay, that's somewhat what I was thinking too... It won't last forever I am sure, but I can always use it as a breeder or young bird loft in addition to a new one if I end up with enough birds!
> 
> 
> My plan is to start out with just a couple pairs. Based on everything I have read regarding space requirements, 8-10 birds would be comfortable in a loft this size, especially with the 2 levels: 4'x4' inside, and the covered bottom / flight level being a total of 4'x8'. I wish I could do another large loft, but my husband's requirement for this "fancy" loft (due to space restrictions) is that it be *easily portable between 2 people, and I am practically 5-foot nothing*


Ya know, when I first built my chicken coop, the plan was for it to roll around the yard on wheels- this was many years ago before there was all kinds of chicken forums with plans and such- plus I had to work quick, because I received chickens as a housewarming gift . Anyway, dang thing only moved once, and it took 4 people really heaving. So, Yeah, hutch makes it more portable- as would perhaps some of those big wheelbarrow type wheels they sell at Harbor Freight (Dangerous place now that we have a retail store in my town...nevere actually ordered anything, but man, wander around for a few, and you'll end up buying something.). Anyway, either wheels, lots of wire on the loft- with perhaps removable plywood covers over the wire windows/ Then you can have the benefit of sunshine and fresh air- and lighter weight- and also be able to make it cozy and such with the doors on it. 

Now, I am admittedly the "crazy pallet lady of Pigeon Talk", so, I will once again mention my favorite building material- lol. 

The hutch style loft I am building right now has a single pallet as it's foundation, and is raised on legs- well in my case some honking huge chunks of salvaged old growth tight grain fir beams. Then I laid plywood on that-and will be using 4x4 posts to create a mini pole building. My aviary is being made of an Ikea pine twin bedframe- lol. Each of those is independent/detachable- and also attached to the main loft so the breeders will have their own aviary zone. I had a unexpected pigeon population explosion, and am a big proponent of lots of room for the birds. I kinda like to build from scrap, but to each their own, right? 










PS- yeah, my yard always looks that bad- oops.


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## Wayne Johnson

Nay Nay you should look at the pallet sites. People build amazing things with them.


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## Owls_N_Frills

Nay Nay, THAT is some ingenuity!! I didn't even realize that was a bed frame until I read that part of the post... It looks great to me!

I like the ideas of removable panels, since it gets both hot and cold here depending on season. I also like the idea of wheels! Never even considered them, but definitely has some merit!

I have to say it never occured to me to use a pallet as the flooring structure (I am NOT a builder, I am talking my friend into building to my plans for me ), and I think the pallet would be a very cost-effective, ready made solution. I see everyone else's loft construction threads, and I have to admit once I see the knowledge/skill required to even do the flooring I feel somewhat hopeless  

Hmm... Now I may have some re-thinking to do myself


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## Wayne Johnson

What Nay Nay is describing is called a "Chicken Tractor".


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## NayNay

Wayne Johnson said:


> Nay Nay you should look at the pallet sites. People build amazing things with them.


Believe me Wayne- I have. It has really evolved, and become part of the "tiny house" movement, where people build and live in very modest sized homes. I thought my 1100 sq ft was tiny, but these are about half that. But, I keep pointing out to my son that whatever room I am in, he is in, and then the dogs and cats follow- so, why do we need this huge place-lol.

And yeah- chicken tractor- mine was intended to be less mobile than your average chicken tractor, and was based on a chicken house idea I saw years ago where you essentially rotate chickens from one yard to another- with the one they are not using at the moment being used as a garden, and with the chickens being "composting technicians" in the area they use. But, I tried to do it small, and in a hurry. Maybe I'll do it right some other time. 

Owls and Frills- the average pallet is about 3ftx4ft, which could work out well for your plans. They are a ready made framing solution for something small like that- and the ones that haven't been rammed too many times by forklift drivers are quite durable. A small loft really doesn't take that much construction know how, and doesn't have to be super fancy. The basics are pretty basic-lol. Check out what Brown 7683 built- it was the first thing he ever built! 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/browns-loft-under-way-53127.html


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## Owls_N_Frills

Thanks again for the suggestions. I am reading as much as I can on here, and trying to do this portable loft right. I don't plan to start building until the end of August or so, maybe I'll learn enough that I can do it myself by that point (or at build it with some help LOL).


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## November-X-Scourge

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Its safe to say you can't build any walk in loft of good quality for less than 500 dollars


 Actually...My loft was 350 dollars, and I'd say its pretty nice, and big!


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## NayNay

yup- mine too- it cost me less than $300, but I got good deals on some of the materials. That doesn't make it any less feasible for someone else to do the same thing. In my mind the concept of an "introductory loft" does not mean that the potential new fancier has to go to home depot and buy all their materials, and build according to a set of specific plans. To me it seems more helpful to help people to understand what the basic housing needs are, so that they can look around and see if they have some structure that can be converted, or materials that can be re-purposed into a functional, healthy, safe environment for keeping pigeons.


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## Shadybug Lofts

November-X-Scourge said:


> Actually...My loft was 350 dollars, and I'd say its pretty nice, and big!


Could you post a pic


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## newbie001

Wayne Johnson said:


> This should use about 3 sheets of chip board. 7 2x4's.
> It is 4 feet tall and deep. 2 feet wide. 30" off the ground with a wire bottom and a pull out drawer. It has handles to make it easier to move and a huge access door in the side to allow cleaning. Access doors at back to get to the breeding boxes.


Hi there, How big is the aviary (I'm assuming the dimensions you have is excluding the cage area)? I just want to know how deep it'g going to be, so I can find a nice slot in my garden.


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## newbie001

Wayne Johnson said:


> Here is my most recent offering. A loft that is 48" deep, 40" wide and deep. attached avia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ry and cutting diagram for the three sheets of plywood.


Size of aviary? also I think there's a small glitch "A loft that is 48" deep, 40" wide and *deep*"

btw great drawings !


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## Wayne Johnson

You are looking at two different plans. The first one is only 24" wide. 

the second is 40" wide and 48" tall with a roof that is 48"x48"
It allows for overhang.


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## newbie001

Wayne Johnson said:


> the last idea is 40" wide and deep with a roof that is 48"x48"
> It allows for overhang.


What size aviary would you suggest?


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## Wayne Johnson

If you plan on keeping only a pair for loft flying the second will do. If you plan on breeding and racing then this will make a nice breeding loft for a pair when you build a bigger one at least 4'x8'.


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## newbie001

Wayne Johnson said:


> If you plan on keeping only a pair for loft flying the second will do.


Sorry to be a pest, but the second plan doesn't have the size for the cage area?


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## Pires

Wayne Johnson said:


> Chayi,
> 
> I hope you dont mind I wanted everyone to see your loft better.


You have the plan this loft?
Regards.
Pires.


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## Wayne Johnson

It is not one of my designs. It is very simple though.


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## Wayne Johnson

My Oriental Roller Loft/Kit has worked well. My birds come and go when I open the trap and my breeder pair is now on their third set of eggs. The first died of coccidiosis (I didnt recognize the symptoms, all are now treated), second are now adolescent and the third set are still in the egg. I love this hobby.


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## Wayne Johnson

I wanted to update everyone on the rood material I used. I combined caulking for roof vents and skylights mixed with half of a can of exterior latex paint. It is still working well after a year in the weather. No pealing or leaks except on the corner where it suffered physical damage during the mover to the new house. 
Wayne


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## Flapdoodle

Wayne Johnson said:


> I wanted to update everyone on the rood material I used. I combined caulking for roof vents and skylights mixed with half of a can of exterior latex paint. It is still working well after a year in the weather. No pealing or leaks except on the corner where it suffered physical damage during the mover to the new house.
> Wayne


I know this is a year old thread. Wayne if you are still in the forum did you end up building a small loft. I am working on a way to get new members and I am working on a few designs. I figure I would post the sketchup here rather then start a new thread. It kind of fits with the other lofts. I have a few others but I think this will work for what I am trying to do. 

Looking for a loft that could be built pretty cheap that youth 8-18 could fly out of. 

I like the drop out floor that was posted in this thread so will try to incorporate it. 

I am going to work up some plans, build one, adjust the plans and hopefully get some local youth groups to build some. Get youth together for a series maybe three races, 50, 75, 100 miles, sponsored by my club (hopefully), kind of like an apprentice program. If you have any suggestions on the loft please post away. I will post the info on a membership drive in the homing/racing section.


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## Flapdoodle

*problems with the apprentice program loft size*

At some point the apprentice might want to be able to separate cocks and hens. Looking at a few more ideas: 

This design is modified from YouTube. It is from the video hillfamily posted on this thread, not sure whose loft it is. Trap through the dormer and then you can split which side they go through to separate sexes. 



















This reminds me of an x-wing fighter. I think Shady had the original concept but basically two of the lofts I posted in the previous thread, side by side one for cocks and one for hens.


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## Shadybug Lofts

Yes that was my original idea but I decided against it because I didn't think I had enough room.


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## Wayne Johnson

Hi, I've been gone for a long time. Yes I built a small loft. In fact it is too small. It is mde as two sections 24" wide 32" front to back and 48" tall. It is too small. I'm building a new one soon and removing the divider leaving it 48" wide.


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## Wayne Johnson

The loft shown looks very complex and expensive to build. I'm a big fan of a wire floor 24" above ground. I don't want to deal with droppings.


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## Flapdoodle

Wayne Johnson said:


> The loft shown looks very complex and expensive to build. I'm a big fan of a wire floor 24" above ground. I don't want to deal with droppings.


I am going to end up with a loft like Chayi's. It will have three sides plywood with the fourth wire, wire floors. We are going to build them and loan them to 4H kids for a pigeon project. I will post work up some step by step plans for anyone who might be interested. I need to make plans for 4H kids/parents that might want to build there own anyway.


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## Szulptist

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## Wayne Johnson

I have not had very good luck with my loft. It it just too narrow. It is 24"wide and 32"deep. It has a ledge for the breeding pair to build a nest. 
James Turner is a very respected Birmingham Roller Breeder from SC. His breeding lofts are 24" deep, 32"wide and 4" high. There are wire floors and are up on legs about 3'. His kit lofts look to be 4' x 4' x 4'. with box perches on the sides. 24" wide is just too narrow for them to fly up to the perch easily. 
I plan on building a new one 4' wide by 36" deep and 4' high for a breeding pair. 
Wayne


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## Wayne Johnson

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f38/oriental-roller-kit-loft-56723.html

This is a semi tutorial of my loft. If I had just left out the devider in the middle and left it 48" wide it would have been much better. 
Wayne


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## chayi

Wayne Johnson said:


> Chayi,
> 
> I hope you dont mind I wanted everyone to see your loft better.


This is a very inexpensive loft and very lightweight it's a two man carry and it even fits in a pickup truck if needed to. I started with a pair of homers and after a few I had 8 homers and made a bigger loft with the same principals wire floors sand underneath to rake clean and a aviary in the front.


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## Wayne Johnson

How about some pictures of the sides and inside.


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## chayi

Wayne Johnson said:


> How about some pictures of the sides and inside.


The only pic I could find was this one, the loft only measures 4x4 in the box plus the aviary on the outside gives it a bit more room the front of the aviary has a door so I can release the birds.


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