# Pigeon Hunting



## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I dont know what you all have to say to this wether right or wrong.


Okay, i was searching around here and their...then i came across "Pigeon hunting" i said okay sure thats not so bad untill i saw this
http://www.argentinabirdhunts.com/Pigeons/Argentina Bird Hunts Pigeon Hunting.htm

i was horrified becasue this guy killed so many of them!! Is he doing this for fun or is he actually going to eat them all.

This guy is making 500$ Per person ,per day (minium 4 hunters) so thats a garunteed 2000$ a day.

IN argentina people get 1000-1500 a day

and its sad to see how many geese they kill.


Some of the FAQ:

Q - How much can I expect to shoot in one day?
A - Anywhere between 250 - 600 birds per day is not uncommon, although some hunters shoot more.

Q - We always hear about how many birds someone shot, how do they keep track?
A - Each hunter will have a Bird Boy with a clicking counter they wear around their neck, and they will keep track of how many birds you bring down.
Q - What is the job of the Bird Boys, besides keeping track of how many birds I bring down?
A - They will also keep track of how many shots you fire by saving all of your empty boxes for you and make sure you have plenty of drinks and snacks. They will also keep your pouch filled with shells and pick up your birds and empty casings at the end of the shoot. They will also display your birds for photo opportunities as well as carry your gear to the field and set up your blind and decoys for you. 

Q - How much should I tip the Bird Boys and staff?
A - Standard tipping for Bird Boys is about $25 per day. For the staff, we suggest that at the end of the hunt, everyone in your party place $30 to $40 in a pot to be split up among the chefs, maids, guides, drivers, and waiters.


I dont think they should be killing hundreds of ducks a day just for a few hundred dollars.

http://www.outdoorsafaris.net/africa.html
Arent Rhinos and Elephants protected species!



Where do i begin?

Respectfully,

Elvis


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

OMG!!!!!  
THAT IS SO DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!
@&*$^$ POACHERS!!!!  
I have 92 acers of land and people poach on our land (deer, moose, and our poor wolves and cyotes). So my father and I go hunting for...........poacher.  So far none have come on our land-- they finally learned after a few shoots to the ass. If I were there whaching them hunt they'd find a bulet or two....maybe three in their backside too (and I'm an excellent markswoman).  
And YES, they are portected!!! They're going to find themselve behind bars soon!!
Hilary Dawn


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

how do you do it?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I remember seeing a segment of an Educational tee-vee programme years ago, about Elephants in Africa...

At one point, a fellow who was a Game Warden was being follwered by the Camera Crew and intermittently interviewed. There had been some poaching activity in his area, and the poachers had been useing automatic rifles of a military kind to kill Elephants, from whom they sawed off the Ivory Tusks to leave the rest behind.

The film crew showed the Warden finding such Elephants here and there laying dead with their faces sawn off with a gasolene chain saw. Some of them he knew, and commented on their age or events he remembered about them.

Our Game warden then, a skinny Black Man, in a tattered short sleeve shirt, and ragged cut-off Trouser shorts, bare footed, sets off in a 1950s Land Rover and drives quite a long ways into the hinterlands, eventually stopping and then walking several more miles discreetly.

He then pauses, he had brought with him a Mark III Enfield ( .303, the 'stubby-muzzle' kind we may recall seeing in the old film 'Lawrence of Arabia') He had brought some several Cartridges with him in his pants pocket.

The rifle had lots of black tape over the stock where it had been cracked...and was overall appearing to have had a hard life.

He takes his time, steadies hiumself for a long shot, and lets one round off.

We then follow him on foot some hundreds of yards to discover a dead Poacher with an AR15 or something, lieing on the ground, and his fellows having departed hastily in their modern Jeep...

Or...

I tend to feel myself to be on the 'side' of those Creatures, unreasonably hurt or killed from people's actual individual deeds...and I would shed no tear to hear any tale of them being dealt with cleanly and simply, whether from 300 yards, or closer.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Nasty!*

This is just nasty and wrong. For food if you have nothing esle. But this is for pleasure and profit.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Thank you Elvis,

You brought to our attention, what our feathered friends throughout the world must endure. It is sad, very sad. 

Personally, I would find more "sport" in shooting something, that can shoot back.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, Elvis .. this is just my opinion, but these "big time" hunts are all about money, ego, and "prestige" .. not about hunting for food. If I had that kind of money to spend, I certainly wouldn't be spending it on killing birds and animals. 

There are probably at least hundreds of organizations that try to protect the wildlife and stop this type of hunting. I'll try to find you some links.

Terry


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## TaylorGS (Feb 27, 2005)

*Hey everyone wait!*

Hi all,
I had my sister check that link out. Those birds are not the birds you think they are! They are wild game birds. What they call pigeons are sort of like Pairie Chickens. These birds are very diseased and they have made many people very sick. 
Taylor


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Taylor,

I did not check the link out for the reason that I simply cannot read or see anything about animal killing or abuse anymore without spending the rest of the day sick crying. I just read the headlines and that's enough to get depressed.
What ever it is they are killing, pigeons or chickens or any other animal, it is inhumane and cruel. I don't think God intended for us to kill just for fun or profit his other creatures He created.
As a physician I can tell you that most people get sick by diseases transmitted from other people. Diseases transmitted from animals do exist, but then again most of the times it is our fault when we get sick from animals by not following the basic hygiene disease prevention rules.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Thank you Elvis,
> 
> You brought to our attention, what our feathered friends throughout the world must endure. It is sad, very sad.
> 
> Personally, I would find more "sport" in shooting something, that can shoot back.




Hi Warren,



Really, it is good for one to have a well rounded proficiency and ease with small Arms generally.

Skeet and Trap Shooting with 'Clay' Pigeons is great fun, and a good way to learn to shoot at moving targets.

Target Shooting with static paper Targets or tin cans or odd things one elects for targets, similarly, is good fun and polite.

Rifle shooting at distances likewise, at cans or objects one brings...

Gun Safety and many small habits of ritual and form and experience...knowing or learning nominclature, dismantleing and cleaning, acquireing understanding of a calm and practical kind...all good things which can in fact be called upon to preserve or save Life if need be, whether one's own or someone elses.


I used to shoot quite a bit, Trap, Skeet, Pistol Matches at various distanced Targets, 'Bulls Eye' competitions...all great fun and good healthy discipline and knowledge and habits. I cringe seeing how sloppy people are in movies when it comes to firearms, they set bad examples of how things are to be done if one is sensible and practical and wishes to remain 'safe' as well...Lol...

I have no interest or use for Hunting in any context, nor would I hunt for 'food' if I were hungry. I am almost a vegan anyway, and for other reasons as well, I would not benifit from nourishment obtained by that method.

Most people eat too much anyway...


Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

taylor! 

i dont care what they call it THAT IS A PIGEON nothing like a chicken!

lol

btw, 

we know dove hunting happens and we know they're doves, doves are also pigeons

Elvis


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

Your post reminded me of something I'd almost completely forgotten....back in the late seventies, my husband (well, he was just my boyfriend back then, lol) and I used to go skeet shooting. We had our own launcher and clay "pigeons." There used to be quite a bit of undeveloped land on the outskirts of our town back then, and we would take our stuff deep into the meadows and have some fun with target shooting. If I do say so myself, I used to be a pretty good shot (for a girl, as all the guys would say..LOL).

Now, THAT kind of shooting was a fun, harmless activity (of course, when done responsibly with rules of safety observed)....neither one of us would ever have dreamed of ever shooting at an animal or a bird. 

To me, that kind of shooting (target shooting using objects, not live animals) is more of a sport than hunting will ever be. At least it takes some skill. Have you ever looked at a "sportsman's" hunting catalog? There are more baits and lures to attract deer and other animals than you can believe...to me there is not much sport to baiting an area, waiting for an unsuspecting animal to show up to take the bait, and then shooting it. What skill is required for that? Well, that's what many of these sportsmen consider "hunting." It's a joke.

Thanks for the memories,
Linda


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I used to work w/an old timer in the union who was a very tall, big boned man
in stature, and a vet, as in military. His biggest pet peeve was hunting and 
the "guy thing" about it. He would ask me what kind of sport is it and how
much "skill" does it take to bait an innocent deer then sit back and wait w/a
rifle that has a high powered scope on it and kill this beautiful amimal with its
big brown eyes?

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Linda, fp...


Yes...

I see no 'sport' in Hunting even when they use 'Bows' or Single Shot Muzzle Loaders...

If a man or woman wished to take down a Deer or a Bear or a Wolverine or a Prairie Dog or a Bird with their bare hands and teeth, after leaping on it or running it down, and then eating all of it, then I could have some respect for them for being 'even' and 'fair' about it.

The Shooting Sports and Arts otherwise, as for non-Living Targets, I have a high regard for and enjoy and recommend to all.

It is a good thing to have familiarity and proficiency with small Arms, and to have knowledge about them...and it makes one a safer boy or girl to have around to keep an eye sometimes on others who do not have good safety habits. One may instruct one's Children in good Gun habits and knowledge and safety, and never let that subject become ruled by emotional association or hysteria or second hand 'movie' type fantasies which many people have because they have no real or informed experience of their own.


A person who understands guns well, is infinitely less likely to ever abuse them, than someone for whom guns represent an emotional fantasy whether positive or negative, and or for whom a gun is a power symbol.

The ignorance of most 'hunters' or sport hunters seems to lie in their teying to feel "okay" to some ignorant totemic bad patriarchy of their childhoods' abuse. Talk to any of them and after a little while you will find this...in effect, they kill others to feel 'okay' with an emotionally currupted and ignorant dad who based ontological validity on violence instead of reason or discernment or self posession.

It made them 'stupid', no matter how clever otherwise.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Hmmm , funny I thought this was a pigeon site "wrong" , I thought that rules said no mention of "Hunting" oh that must be unless you have the "right" opinion , well I don't have the "right" opinion so there is no place here for me. 
I look at these threads and posts and see nothing but whiners and moaners looking for some reason to be pissed. 
My other passion is Bow Hunting , I love it, I see the big game hunts offered by that outfit in Chile and Argentina and I think "what a dream hunt" , I also love to big game fish in Baja Mexico, thats the life.
So in ending, have fun with your little pigeon site, you certainly don't need the likes of me here or for that matter any of the pigeon men that I know, and from what I have seen most pigeon men are ran off, why ? because most don't fit in your narrow views, nor do I. 
there should be one more forum here called "What can we find to be Pissed at today" but of coarse any opinions must be the "right" ones or you can hit the highway . Well I just hit the highway

PS How many here on anti depressants ?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Motherlodelofts said:


> Hmmm , funny I thought this was a pigeon site "wrong" , I thought that rules said no mention of "Hunting" oh that must be unless you have the "right" opinion , well I don't have the "right" opinion so there is no place here for me.
> 
> 
> > Hi Motherlodelofts,
> ...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

You really give great arguments, you're an excellent debater and philosopher. Alas, Scott is of the old school. He believes that animals were put on earth to serve humans. I find this strange considering that dinosaurs were here long before humans ever were. Who were they serving?  

It's hard to change a person's mind on their beliefs which is why I think it's important that we just have to respect each other as best we can.


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## TaylorGS (Feb 27, 2005)

Motherlodelofts,
I read your post and you are very right. I love to hunt big game with my family too. Also annoying ground squirrels. lol The only thing I dis like about this site is anyone will get angry about anything a person says. Now I don't want anyone to hate me, but can we just stop the fighting about how people are killing birds? Yes, The people are killing the birds, but if we don't cut down the population of pigeons, we will be over run with birds. Now I don't mean I am going to go out and shoot pigeons on my ranch, I mean no matter what we do, we can't stop people killing pigeons or any other birds. 
Taylor


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I always thought of hunting as a good thing.

But i dont think of hunting as a good thing if your going to shoot it and get its head for a trohpy.

If i was living in the woods i'd be hunting for survival, but whats the point of kiling a deer when you can just buy domesticated meat? Maybe you'll save money, but you save a life.

I dont know how you do it. When i was killing a chicken when i was very young i thought it was easy and "cool" but when i got half way and i stared at its eyes and it looked back moaning i stoped , i couldnt do it. Just imagine what i said when they told me to kill a goat.

Motherdelofts ( srry for mispell) I find you a great memeber of pigeon-talk...and i dont think you should leave becasue you disagree, i admire your knowledge.

elvis


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

*From Scott: Hmmm , funny I thought this was a pigeon site "wrong" , I thought that rules said no mention of "Hunting" oh that must be unless you have the "right" opinion , well I don't have the "right" opinion so there is no place here for me*

*From Taylor: Motherlodelofts,
I read your post and you are very right. I love to hunt big game with my family too. Also annoying ground squirrels. lol The only thing I dis like about this site is anyone will get angry about anything a person says. Now I don't want anyone to hate me, but can we just stop the fighting about how people are killing birds?*

Both of you are basically correct....among the forum rules of conduct (which we all agreed to follow when we joined Pigeons.com) is that the advocacy (meaning approval or encouragement) of hunting, etc. is a topic that would not be tolerated. 

So, Scott, I guess it's true that discussing hunting is a "wrong" at the site, unless you have the "right" opinion toward it (disapproval).

Scott and Taylor too: I think both of you know from being members here, that statements advocating hunting are not going to be welcomed here with open arms...so, Taylor, what kind of responses do you expect? You know you're going to receive negative responses to these kinds of posts.

I've said this before, the forum rules of conduct may seem narrow and restrictive..(even - I - thought so at one time) but, I've come to believe they are a useful tool to avoiding arguments like the one that is beginning to develop here. If people follow them, (as they agreed to, when they joined), trouble and hurt feelings can be kept to a minimum. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but also, most everyone here knows that when they post certain opinions, trouble is bound to start. 

I echo Brad's sentiments here: *It's hard to change a person's mind on their beliefs which is why I think it's important that we just have to respect each other as best we can.*

Linda


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Well I'll give you some situations:
Keep natural predetors-->population stable----> NO HUNTING NEEDED
KILL natural predetors-->population boom in prey--->hunting, unfortunatly, needed
KILL natural predetors->population boom-> A LOT of hunting->species go extinict in area
This is true EVERYWHERE!! Re-introduce the predetors and no one will have to hunt.
Also this is what I say to all people about hunting "feral animals": "If they're an intruduced species and no laws to protect them from hunting, then why do we go around hunting people.......we ARE an intruduced species too?!?"  
So, can a go hunt them...NO!! 
Poor me.  So I have to settle with shuting them in the ass.  

Hilary Dawn

PS- ML, my birds are my anti-depressants, they give me a reason to wake up each and every morning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...

Just a few general thoughts...

I am certainly not 'mad' at anyone, or about anything...but I have my opinions, or a sense of aesthetics ( feelings, knowings, awarenesses )certainly and since this is a dicussion which was invited, I think it makes sense for us to wonder out loud a little.

I do not believe there is any such thing as 'Right' or 'Wrong' as things which exist all by themselves. They exist, allways, in deference to something, to some criteria of some kind, usually an emotional one, often one which is an equation of something learned from others, or from the qualified acceptances those others implicitly made known to us...and almost allways, that something is parenthetical or unstated...but implicit. Sometimes we may not know what the implicit part is, since it is an internalized political equation in someone else's mind or acceptances.

I do not think hunting is wrong, nor do I think it is right. Hunting is killing other Creatures, and it can be anything in a wide gamut of possibilities.

Likewise, people killing eachother, occupies a wide range or gamut of possible justifications, contexts and possible deferences to some motive, intention or desire.

Allways, as a general idea to bear in mind, is to ask, "What is the deference?"

Or, What kind of deference is at work with something...deference 'to' what?

Here is a beautiful young girl...maybe she should be raped or dismembered because we admire her parts and want trophies. Maybe we just want her teeth to make a Neclace out of to impress our friends who also do things like that. Maybe it is your or my daughter or wife or sister...and maybe others will not care about that since she exists to serve their whims in their acquired view of the matter.

"What is the deference?"

To whom? In what way?


Here is a beautiful Deer or Bobcat or Wolf or Falcon or Jack Rabbit...minding their own business in their own territories or 'homes' in effect...

What kind of deference will characterize our relationship or interaction with it?

I would not want myself or others whom I know or care for, my children or mate or friends to be killed for someone elses transiant opportunistic thrills of feeling dominant or merely wanting to posess the experience of violating them or taking parts of them home to nail to a board.

Hence, I am easily able to imagine that I should not want to do to others what I myself would object to having done to me.

If a Shark or a Bear caught them and ate them for food, I would certainly feel bothered by it, but not in the same was I would if the event was totally removed from some reasonable expectation of common manners and sense.

I would not let them be vulnerable to Sharks or Bears, whose presence and reputations are known and not hard to guess.

Is this not simple and clean?

It is "The Golden Rule"

Plain and simple...

Those of us who may retain memories of Bible School or other educations, may recall, that even Jesus is remembered to have said, "What you do even to the least of my Creatures, you do unto ME..."

Seems reasonable to me, and I am not even 'religeous' either. 

How we got from 'there' to being 'taught' that 'animals' have-no-souls, and god put themn here for us to kill and put into cans or take little parts of for fun, seems to me to have been a corruption of our sense and our excercise of our sense. I was taught those things and they did not set well with me.

Or, there is something much more thrilling and enchanting and deep and mysterious, (which is our own being and our own capacities to life and to experience, as well as that t here is a World TO Life in and to experience) which only begins to show itself, to welcome us, if we approach it with Love...rather than, whatever our experience is of anyone or anything if we do not approach it with Love. In the long run, it is our own true quality of being which is at stake, as well as h ow we treat otyher Creatures. If we are not aware of them vividly and sensitively, how can we be aware of ourselves or eachother?

This is a tough row-to-hoe in our culture...we were all abused and unseen and unacknowledged for the most part, in any real or authentic ways...so we adapted, and I do not think it realy set well with anyone.

The real issue which all of this hinges on...is that.

There is something which if we could find our way to it, we would like it infinitely better than anything had been which was not premised on Love, and on those qualities of awareness which Love makes possible.

There is a kind of mystery there with that, which can not be seen unless we go to it rigthtly.

Being against what is not that, is an error of judgement or emotion I have made many times...that error leads away from 'where' I want to go. I make that error, often..but some of me knows that it is an error ans aspres to the clearity of mind to keep my eyes on where I want to go, instead of keeping thenm on things tat are not-that.

So, as for me, what the real central thing is here, is that I would like to advocate positively, that there are possibilities of qualities of experience, which anyone would be thrilled and enchanted with, which defer to Life and to other Creatures in ways that our culture had forgotten about.

And that these are much MUCH more satisfying and liberating and clearifying than consolations for their absence, can ever be. They are our true legacy, mostly unclaimed.

And that it is our loss as well as theirs whom we victimize, for our having forgotten it...for our not claiming it.

How we treat other Species is continuous with how we feel about and experience, Life, ourselves and the World, and, with how we will treat eachother.

If we can not authentically meet others, especially authentic others such as wild Creatures or farae ones, then, we are too diminiished to have anything for ourselves which is really about Life at all..we are missing out on our own Life's breadth and depth and presence..and possibilities.

Like that...

I am still stuggleing to think positively, meaning, clearly and directly. I had decades of training on not doing that.

My loss...

But I know the difference, and yearn for learning my way (back) to it.

I have seen my own damage and corruption often enough to know I made lots of mistakes in what, and in how, I let myself experience things.

The thrill of 'really' seeing ( somehow) another Creature, innocent in their occupation of the World, is a deeper and wider and fuller, more prrofound, than any of the deeds or acts which may be sought to console or make up for not doing so.

Hence, "Hunting" is something I see as being a consolation for stimulations which occur in the absense of real sense and awareness of others...and which is far from what preditory Animals 'do' when they Hunt for food innocently, in the fullness of their experience and place-in-the-World.


Love,

Phil

Las Vegas


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

phill, 

thought of writing a book? lol

outstanding! you have a differnt point of veiw very unique.

respectfully,

elvis


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Whew. I think everyone needs to go back and look at the rules of conduct for this site: 

* Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any inhumane treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself.

Whatever one's opinion of hunting, this isn't the place to discuss it.


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## rosey_love (Mar 21, 2004)

*I agree with Scott and Taylor*

I agree with Scott and Taylor. I tried to post somthing about my opinion and just got people comming back at me with anger. They never should have started this thread because this is exactly like the one that just got closed, there is anger and war in this thread. I do not see anything wrong with what Scott and Taylor posted. I would think that since alot of you are older and mature that you would know what is right and what things are wrong. You all should have known that people are going to get hurt. I think that this thread is another that needs to be closed before anymore feelings get hurt.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Please read our rules.....*



Birdmom4ever said:


> Whew. I think everyone needs to go back and look at the rules of conduct for this site:
> 
> * Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any inhumane treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself.
> 
> Whatever one's opinion of hunting, this isn't the place to discuss it.


Thank You Bird Mom,

I think the key word is "ADVOCACY".....The act of pleading or arguing in favor of something, such as a cause, idea, or policy; active support.

I personally do not condone, or support the "sport" of killing a wild bird or animal for fun. The fact that you gut the animal, and drag it home and eat it, does not make a difference to me. I can state this opinion, because I am not "Advocating" such a practice. If this is your ideal of fun, then by all means subscribe to "Field and Stream" and send your dues into the NRA. 

If you are a "Hunter" then practice your "right", but don't try to sell your ideals here. The rules are pretty straight forward. Perhaps there are some of you, that feel so strongly about your "right" to kill, or in some people's vocabulary "harvest", that you can not control your posting. Then perhaps this is not the site, or forum for you.

There are plenty of other web sites and forums in which you can find like minded people. This is a forum for people, who agree to abide by our rules, if you advocate...." hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any inhumane treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself ".

How more clear, can I state it ?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thank you Cathy and Warren for the providing further clarification in reference to Pigeon.com's rules of conduct, for those who may have been in need of it.

And on this note, if there are no objections, I think the time has come to close this thread.

Linda


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