# Please advice!



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi All

I am new to this forum. I rescued a pigeon recently from the street. His name is Rudy (I think it is a he, I honestly dont know to confirm!).
When he came home, he was in a state of shock, and I forcefed him for one day. The next day he began to feed himself but I noticed that he was pecking at random rather than with some focus. Also he began his aimless circling around. I also noticed that his droppings were flourescent green. I searched the internet and came across PMV. 
I called a vet to home, and he told me that the pigeon, thanks to his initial health, has survived the viral disease. But the circling and the jerkiness will continue throughout life, and cannot be helped. But he will eat and live. 
I have a few doubts. 
1)Does the nervous symptoms improve over time?
2)Its been around three weeks since Rudy came. Initially only the circling was there. But now he has started to duck his head between his legs way too often, and loses his balance more. Especially after I have carried him for some time and then when I put him down, he tumbles around 2-3 times before getting to his feet (even though I take care to keep him down right on his feet.) Have a fear that his condition is deteriorating. 
Otherwise he is a very inquisitive pigeon. We gave him a small room of our house which has high windows so that no cat can enter. But he doesnt like the room. He always comes out and sits where we are. He hates it when I feed him water (I force-feed him water because I dont see him drinking.)He becomes extra nervous and ducks his head all the more after I have given him water. One day, as if to show me that he can drink water himself, he went straight to the water bowl, and dipped his head into it a dozen times, making the hair on his head look spiked. That day I decided that I better give him water rather than go by the assumption seeing his wet head that he has drunk water.
3) Will he ever fly? Now he makes attempts but goes backwards. 

Thanks in advance for all help


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello and welcome !

You have done very well for Rudy so far.

I believe your vet had it quite wrong, however.

From what you describe...he is very much in the midst of the virus...he has not passed it yet. It seems like it is getting worse, which is the 'middle' part of the length of time the virus takes to leave.

It could be 2 other things other than PMV: 

1) concussion or neurological damage due to a head injury...or 
2) an infection (bacterial or fungal) which is having neurological effects.

I doubt it is 1) because concussion victims generally improve over time, in a linear fashion.

So, it could be 2)...or it could be PMV. In these instances, in order to figure this out, I usually will start the Pigeon on an antibiotic. Do you have any ? Penicillin, Amoxycillin, Augmentin, Cipro (Baytril, Enroflaxin), Ceclor, Ampicillin, Cephalexin...? Human or animal grade ? If not,can you get some in India easily ?

I would treat with the antibiotic for 10 days. If there is NO improvement, then stop. No harm will have come of it. If there is improvement, keep going for 17-21 days of treatment.

Now, also keep an eye on whether he is actually eating enough food, as opposed to just tossing it about. Keep an eye on his weight (his chest). It may be necessary for you to handfeed him again.

Yes, it is possible and probably likely he will become more normal again. Many times, well enough for release...and many times, not able to be released. Time will tell. You have done very well so far.

Can you post a photo ? (hit the "advanced" button under the reply screen, and on the next page which appears, scroll down to "attachments").


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Jaye

Thank you very much for the advice. 
Actually the vet did prescribe amoxyllin for 5 days (just to be sure), but I gave him only for 2 days because both me and pigeon were exhausted by the effort. And since his droppings were back to normal within two days, I thought he is going to be fine.
Actually he looks really healthy. I have attached two pics..dont know if they got uploaded alright. He eats well, this I know because his droppings are in good number. I read somewhere it should be close to 20 droppings in a day, and that is about what he gives.
He is also not withdrawn like a sick bird would do. If we go from one room to the next, he comes to check out what we are doing there. He pecks at my daughter's soft dolls (especially a mickey mouse.) He cleans himself, stretches his wings and tries to fly every now and then. He does doze off for a really long time, though each sleep period individually is small. His head would be quivering with fright one moment, and the next moment he would doze off!

So I am sure he is feeding alright and taking care of himself. Will a bird with PMV still behave normally?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, thanks. 

You really, really need to finish the Amoxycillin. Doing 2 days of dosage then stopping is about the worst thing you can do. Because it BEGINS to fight the infection, but then when it is prematurely stopped, the infection fights back and it can cause the bacteria to build up a resistance to the antibiotic.

In order to medicate, pick the Pigeon up and wrap him in a towel, firmly but not too tight, with only head and neck sticking out. Hold him in your lap and hold the head with 2 fingers of one hand, gently prying beak open, while medicating with the other. If liquid, drop the liquid onto his tongue and close the beak. He will swallow. If pill, lay it on the tongue towards the back of the mouth and close the beak, he should swallow.

Keep in mind, in order to be sure he is eating well enough you must keep an eye on his weight, and chest area. A Pigeon can lose weight very fast and his chest will become very bony quickly. Keep an eye on that and check it daily.

No pics appear here. Go to reply, then 'go advanced' button, then on the next page scroll down to 'attachments' button and click. Then browse and upload from your computer...and the photos will appear here in the thread.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you very much Jaye. I will start him on Amoxyllin today. The doctor had told me to crush the tablet and give him with a dab of jam. But since you say he will swallow as such, I will try that out.
Also I left out one information. I got the bird from some street boys who were handling the bird in a very rough way. When I enquired, they told that they threw stones at the bird to bring it down. I don't know if they are telling the truth, but when you wrote that such nervous damage could also be due to a hit on the head, this occurred to me.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the help. 
I will keep posting on any improvement


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

*Photos*

I am attaching the photos again.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello and thanks for the photos. They may have been telling the truth or they may have gotten hold of him because he was already in that condition.

With the tablets, you can break them into seed-sized pieces if the tablet is larger than, say...10mm, If it is 10mm or smaller, he can swallow it in one gulp. Just open the beak, and place the pill toward the back of the mouth, and close the beak and rub his throat for a few seconds. They usually swallow.

If he begins shaking his head dramatically, then it is stuck near his windpipe and you should open the beak and take it out (this very rarely happens, though...but I thought I would mention it.

yes, keep him on Amoxy for the full course and yes, it is possible, again, that this might be the result of being struck or concussion instead of PMV.

Keep up the good work ! And thank you for rescuing him ! You certainly saved his life...


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jaye! And please dont thank me for saving Rudy's life. He was mine, and I had to save him. Actually I consider all animals mine 
Rudy is doing well. I have noticed that he ducks his head more often when he is feeling stressed. Like after I have caught him and given him water. I just hope his nervous system improves with time.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

aww poor rudy, hope you yelled at those mean kids!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Here in India the Law does not protect animals well enough. Actually I saw those kids throwing up something in the air. It took some time for me to realise that it was a living bird they were throwing around for fun. Still there was nothing I could do to stop these kids. Yelling at them would mean inviting trouble. So I negotiated and paid them a good sum to get Rudy. This is the sad state of affairs here


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

that's awful, cruel people live everywhere sadley,we have laws but they are rarely enforced, all we can do is try to teach the ones that cross our paths


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Have a doubt whether this is normal behaviour.

Rudy is mostlly outdoors these days, under a large mosquito net in the balcony. When I check upon him, he looks content, always standing on a piece of brick we have put there.
But when I take him inside in the night, he makes a noise and tries to resist. We spend some time with him before going to bed but all the while he pecks at us and tries running away. On one hand, I am happy that he is standing up for himself which is a sign of improvement, but on the other hand, I dont know whether it is because of something wrong in the way I behave with him that he is doing this pecking.


- Will the pecking be due to body pain, because of which he doesnt want to be touched?

Otherwise he is eating and drinking fine. 
He looks fatter than before. 
I am also giving him Vit B supplement, after which his alertness has improved.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Sounds like normal aggravated pigeon to me 
He is just telling you to keep you distance 
Just be patient, he is a wild bird after all, he probably won't ever want to be picked up and touched
Just talk sweetly to him and work on earning his trust
Remember the only time a bird is grabbed in the wild is when it is going to be eaten
It takes a lot of trust for them to get over that, and some can't


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Kunju, thank you for loving this pigeon. You have done well in caring for him! I hope his condition improves.

I can't help but feel appalled by those street thugs. I can't imagine the torture Rudy had to endure in their rough hands if you hadn't saved him. Thank you for your kindness! I am sure in his little heart, Rudy is also grateful and loves you in his little way.

Good luck in caring for him. Do follow Jaye's advice and keep us updated!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Where in India do you live. I know of other kind souls, in India, that feel the same about animals as you. It would be lovely to connect you.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the advice and lovely support! Hope his behaviour is normal after all. We do talk to him everyday. Sometimes we try to play with him, but he always maintains a stoic attitude ! Like you said, perhaps he wants to keep his distance, thats all.

I am in Kerala, India 
I would love to connect to people who love animals, whether in India or anywhere else.

Altgirl35, looking at your avatar I was reminded how once I held Rudy in that fashion and he gave a peck on my eye. His beak touched the eyelid, but I had blurred vision for one day. Hope you take care of your eyes while handling your sweety!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

yeah, birds near your face in general isn't a good idea, she was in a good snuggly mood that day, but i still have a numb spot on my lip from one of her "kisses"


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi everyone.
Today I noticed a disturbing thing. Rudy always twists his head to the left, seldom to the right. I used to bring my hand towards him from the right just to check if he could see with the right eye, and I felt he could see my hand well enough.
Today I noticed that there is a bald spot on top of his right eye (maybe I didnt notice this earlier because he had it covered with hair.) Anyway the skin at the bald spot is sort of bulgy.
Today I held him in good light outdoors, and cupping his left eye, kept his head on my palm such that he could see only with his right eye. I could clearly see that his right eye was weak. He couldnt open it as well as the right eye, and showed lot of discomfort looking through this eye.
Now I'm feeling that his head twisting and circling could also be due to impaired vision ? Maybe it is not PMV after all? 
There is no discharge from the weak eye. 
We have a veterinary hospital nearby, but taking Rudy there would be a really stressful thing. That's why I would like opinion from everyone here before taking him there. 
I am having some ideas in my mind, which could be foolish really. One idea is patching the strong eye and checking if he can manage with the weak eye. Maybe patching for one week can promote him to use both eyes. Since there is no discharge, I am not sure if I should use some antibiotic. I have ciprofloxacin eye drops with me.
Please advice!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I am bumping this so an expert can advise you on this. I'm beginning to think it's damage done by the rocks thrown at him by the street thugs 

I hope someone knowledgeable will answer your question soon.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Could you maybe post a picture of it, so people could get a better perspective.

Lucas


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

*Bump on the head*

More bad news. Feel the problem is more with the bulgy area on the head rather than the eye. The bulge feels soft and filled with fluid. There are also yellow deposits on his head around this bulge.
I had given him Ciprofloxacin tablet for 8 days earlier last month. Will I have to start on antibiotic again? I am feeling that maybe this bulge is causing him to avoid looking through the right eye. 
Ever since I got him ( one month back) he has been twisting his neck to look through the left eye, which I thought was the typical neck twisting due to PMV. but this bulge has appeared only day before yesterday.
I am attaching a photo, but dont know whether it is clear enough. I will post a clearer one if I can.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Do you have a clearer photo? I'm bumping this again so an expert can see this...


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Aww, this poor bird just can't win
I think he may have pox on top of all his other issues
You find put over the next few weeks, if it's pox he will get more
Its a virus that needs to run it's course, keep him away from other Pijis 
And make sure you clean yourself up after working with him
Birds normally catch it thru a vector species like the mosquito 
It's normally not deadly as long as the lesions don't get infected
I keep them on a antibiotic until the lesions are gone, and once or twice a day I dab the lesions with dilute betadine and a q-tip to help dry them up
Do not pop them, it hurts and they will clear up on thier own usually in a few weeks to a month or so
I have have never seen it cause neuro issues, so whatever is going on there I don't know
I can't really speak about pmv, I have only seen it once
I have seen head trauma birds behave that way, and they usually improve a bit over time
But sometimes the damage can be permanent 
Poor birdie, thank you for saving him and taking such good care of him


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

If it is a swelling, this could indeed be causing the blindness (and other nervous symptoms) if it is putting pressure on the nerves.
Have you tried METACALM (Meloxicalm). It is an anti inflamitory, normally used simply as a pain reliever. Pain is usually caused by inflamation, and severe inflamation can/will transfer pressure to other areas, especially around the head where the skull will force any swellings andpressure to weaker areas.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sorry I'm not able to get better photos with my phone. I will try explaining in detail. There is a water-filled bulge above his right eye. It has loose skin with brown specks on it. It is not like the small round bulges we get when we have chickenpox. This is a much larger and uneven bulge. He is scratching that part with his feet. Since I didnt get any reply on this forum for a long time, I applied an ointment rich in aloevera on it, and it is looking better now. 
And I checked his eyesight. He CAN see objects to his right without turning his head. It is just that he is not preferring to use the right eye.

OK, so I will start him on antibiotic. Will this automatically reduce the swelling and pressure? I will apply betadiene on the area too.

If it is pox, will the rest of the bumps appear on the head or all around the body? Will it spread to us humans?

Thanks for all help. I will keep you updated on what's happening.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

P.S. I understood now that the Metacalm you mentioned was to reduce the inflammation. In case I dont get it here in India, will paracetamol work?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I'm not sure what that medication is
And no humans cannot get it


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It could be a lotta things, actually...I wouldn't necessarily jump to pox. Could be he struck it on something and it is a blood blister...those will eventually fall off by themselves.

Hehehe...medacam, also called meloxicam.....everyone here who acquires it w/o prescription GETS it FROM India !!!! 

....perhaps Sreeshs can offer you some advice on where to acquire it in India. E-mail him, as he doesn't check PM's often: [email protected] 

If things are improving, then that's good. In a situation of an eye infection (again a quite possible explanation of this symptom, also)...topical antibiotic eyedrop Genytamycin can also help clear things up. Perhaps that is available in India w/o prescription ?

If you start noticing these bumps appearing elsewhere on his head, neck, body...then it likely IS pox. But if it remains singular and in one spot,likely not. Do also continue to check his mouth occasionally for any canker.

You & your family are great Pigeon Friends !!!!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Paracetimol = acetomeniphen

Not a good choice for avians.

Ibuprophen is a better alternative...a childrens-strength liquid dose. But I am writing this away from home so cannot give you the safe dosage and suspension.

Metacam is way stronger stuff. Also, it doesn't make a bird drowsy, while Ibuprophen may do that....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jaye, altgirl35. 
At present there are no bumps anywhere else, so lets hope it stays that way.
I will check for Metacam. Otherwise I have Ibuprofen which I give my child. I think Gentamycin is also available here, had used it for my cats once.
In our cats, whenever they had an internal wound, like a bite, we would not know about it immediately, because they would lick it spotless clean. Later on, the hair in the infected area would fall off, and yellow discharge would come out of the area of the bite. Only at this stage, we would come to know that the cat had been bitten. For Rudy also, I am feeling the same thing has happened. Maybe I am wrong.
Anyway he is otherwise active and eating well. 
Will keep you updated!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Gentamycin drops are great to have...get them if you can.

For the Ibuprophen (Advil, Motrin) the typical children's liquid suspension here is 100mg/5ml (or 20mg/ml).

You want to give .02cc per 100g of bird, so safely assume a 300g Pigeon, you can dose around .05-.06cc twice daily, 10 hrs. apart.

It may help, it may not...as I suggested, not nearly as strong as metacam but it may take away some discomfort.

I don't believe Rudy has an internal injury which is causing the problem; unless there is a mark under the feathers somewhere which you did not see.....possible, but not typical. I would still lean towards PMV.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jaye. The fluid in the bump is less now, hope it will go away soon.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi All

The bump on Rudy's head has dried off, and slowly is getting covered with hair. There is no improvement in his tendency to look only through his left eye, or his walking backwards and head ducking. But we catch him saying coo-coo every now and then. Earlier we used to never hear a sound from him 
His beak has also got sharper (god knows how) and he pinches me real hard whenever I am not welcome!. He has also started pecking seeds directly from the floor, which is an improvement.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks for the update...sound slike he knocked his head and it was a blood blister, is all.

So... it has been 7 weeks since you have found him and the neurological symptoms persist.

It could then be permanent damage....perhaps from an impact injury. It could also have been PMV but again, usually by this time you would see some improvement. Has the lack or eye use been getting worse or is it consistent ?

My recollection is you used Amoxycillin as an antibiotic last time. The only other thought I have here is to see if you can get some Cipro (Baytril, Enroflaxin) and try that instead.

I believe it has been several weeks since you stopped the last antibiotic, so it'd be safe to try another one. It couldn't hurt, and there's a chance it might target the illness if the illness isn't PMV or if it isn't permanent....

Glad he has found a good home, also. You guys have been great !


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

nutin like a good bite to tell you they are feeling better!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Ya he really is a good biter  Even I am at a loss as to whether he is actually improving or not. When we got him, there was lot of circling around and neck twisting. There was no backward walking. Now, circling is almost gone. Neck twisting is still there, but there are more moments where he keeps his head steady I feel. Activity-wise he is the same - curious and pecking at objects around the house (and us.). Backward walking has increased with time. Recently,I think he is doing some feather-pulling too (because though it looks as if he is pulling to clean himself, at some places along his shoulders his white underneath is showing.) So the circling has been replaced by more head ducking and walking backwards, in short. 
When he wants to go to an object, he does this head ducking and backward-walking several times before mustering all his energy to go right to the object. And when he goes forward, he goes in one shot. In videos, I see pigeons walking with a slight to and fro motion of their heads, I have never seen it in Rudy. After a lot of preparation with his backward walking, he shoots ahead as if going for an important meeting.
He still makes attempts to fly and becomes air-borne for a few seconds before crashing backwards. His control over head movements while pecking has improved greatly.
His will to live is as strong as ever, which is our only hope.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

lol, poor rudy late for a his meeting, i know not funny, but the my picture of it in my head cracked me up
havnt had a lot of experience with pmv but i know they can improve over time


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Interesting...particularly that some symptoms have diminished while others have established. Nothing incredibly alarming as all in all, he is at least stable if not a bit improved....

Can you get Cipro/Baytril/Enroflaxin ?


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## Hylianprincess7 (Apr 7, 2012)

I alnost wonder if this pigeon was a PMV survivor in the wild (somehow, miraculously healing), and he may have been startled by those horrible kids, reviving his PMV symptoms. They also could have traumatized him, and that stress may be recurring. My friend has had several cases like that (She lives in Mexico, and throwing stones at pigeons is a favorite thing for children in plazas. She even said that she saw one kid grab a pigeon by the neck, and fling it around like a lasso!  Thank goodness that she managed to rescue it though).

But yes, in her life, she has owned many pigeons that have been stricken with traumatic stress. Being this one obviously shows signs of PMV, though not entirely certain, if he does, the traumatic stress from the children could be causing constant relapses of PMV.

My friend in Mexico had one pigeon that she said took an entire 2 years to break free of his traumatic episodes.

Keep it up. You're doing great.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks everybody. 

Jaye, sorry I forgot to mention in my previous post. I had used cipro last time for 8 days. Would it be a good idea to try Amoxcyllin now?
Yes some symptoms have gone to be replaced with other symptoms. Earlier he was under much more stress, because of the children who caught him, as well as the stress of being indoors with humans for the first time. Now the initial fear has gone, maybe this has something to do with some symptoms leaving (?). Or it could be that it is a revisit of PMV symptoms. can't tell.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

How do the droppings look now? If they look better maybe he doesn't need any more antibiotics. Also, did you give him some probiotic after the last course of antibiotics?

Regardless of the cause of these neurological symtoms, PMV or whatever it may be... see if you can get a med called Piracetam (Nootropil). 

Ask for the one with the lowest dosage per tablet. You need 50 mg/day for an average pigeon (overdose is not a problem, so it doesn't really matter how much the pigeon weighs). So 200 mg tablets will still be ok, you can cut a tablet in 4 and give him one quarter of a tablet each day, in the morning. 

Also, find some bird vitamins if you can, they are usually sold as a powder that can be dissolved in the drinking water, for example http://venttura.in/bird_omni-vit . 
As an alternative, you could get him some nutritional yeast which contains many vitamins, especially from the B complex.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jondove. 
The yeast is available here. Will check for Piracetam. 
No, I did not give probiotics after the antibiotic course. 
Right now I am giving him Neurobion -Vitamin B supplement, and it is doing some help to him.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I dunno...if you used Cipro before, maybe do not try Amoxycillin now.

I do not think that probiotics or supplements will improve the neurological symptoms, however...it may balance his digestive system out but it won't likely do anything for the neurological symptoms.

But...why not try it for a bit and see what happens....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Ok thanks. I will get some probiotics/yeast. We have used both for our cats whenever they would not eat. 

Rudy is eating quite normally. There are days when he would eat nothing, but they are far in between. I am going by your advice to check for his chest to decide whether he is eating healthy. Till now, no problems on that front.


I am personally not in favor of using antibiotics except in emergencies, for humans or animals  
If we can make the immune system stronger and enable the body to fight the disease by itself, that would be better (in the long run.) This is the policy I generally stick with.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

If you already give him a vitamin B supplement, maybe you don't need the yeast.

You should give him some probiotic to compensate the effect of the antibiotic on the gut flora. You don't need another antibiotic unless there's a good reason to believe there's a secondary bacterial infection, or that in fact he has salmonellosis and not PMV. 
Antibiotics don't help with viral infections, like PMV.

As for Piracetam and vitamins from the B Complex, they do help with the neurological symtoms.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Got the piracetam and probiotic. Thanks a lot.
Ya, Vit-B supplement does help a lot with neurological symptoms. Once we had a kitten who got suddenly paralysed (due to feline entritis). He got a vitamin-B injection at the hospital, and within hours he was walking again.
Rudy also has shown considerable improvement because of Vit-B. Hope Piracetam also helps. 
Will keep all of you updated. Thanks!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

kunju said:


> I am personally not in favor of using antibiotics except in emergencies, for humans or animals
> If we can make the immune system stronger and enable the body to fight the disease by itself, that would be better (in the long run.) This is the policy I generally stick with.


I have to chime in here and say while it common these days to try NOT to medicate and rather use natural or dietary supplements instead....and this is laudable, and in many ways I agree with the CONCEPT....I am going to reiterate this, because it often gets misunderstood and quite honestly, misrepresented by other well-meaning members:

The purpose in this instance of suggesting an antibiotic is to target the precise malady which is afflicting the Pigeon. It is not a willy-nilly suggestion.

My 'policy' is one taken from my Avian Vets (all 4 of them): that there are two antibiotics which are so wide-net that they cover 90% of bird illnesses, if those illnesses are bacterial-related. That is Cipro, and Amoxycillin.
These two have a lot of overlap (i.e. they can treat the same infection) *BUT.*..they also have their own advantages, as Amoxy is better for anaerobes and Cipro is better against aerobes.

In a PMV-esque bird...a bacterial infection, or a concussion type of impact-injury.... can be mistaken for the PMV virus....because there are symptoms which appear in both. 

So the administering of an antibiotic is to determine which we are dealing with. More than 33% but less than 50% of the time, in my experience, it ends up being a bacterial infection which is causing the neurological symptoms. So the antibiotic clears it up.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

So, while you say the vitamins are helping, and that is great...the fact is that 7 weeks into this...your buddy is still pretty darn compromised neurologically.

So, at 7 weeks...one has a few options. 7 weeks is nearing the end of a PMV virus shedding, yet the improvement one would expect by now has not come to pass. It doesn't mean it will not...but it should be showing significant improvement in the next 2 weeks...I mean the return of a lotta neurological function.

The fact that at 7 weeks it has NOT...lead to my suggestion that it may not be PMV and therefore if bacterial...the other antibiotic may be the one to go with.

If I were in your shoes, after having your friend off Cipro now for several weeks, I would begin Amoxy.

If that did not work and no improvement revealed itself after 7 days of Amoxy...and the symptoms still persisted and kept going into week 11 or 12...then, you either give up meds entirely and accept your friend is permanently neurologically damaged and will never be 'normal' again...and therefore you use diet and supplements to improve his quality of life....

...or, as a last-ditch, NOW a bit of a shot in the dark; you could try an antifungal...as there are fungal infections which can attack the brain and neuropathways, too.

In an instance where veterinary tests are NOT an available option...to ME...this path as I have described above is the one which leaves no stone unturned. And this is the point where I, as a rescuer and caregiver for a Pigeon showing such signs, would be satisfied knowing that everything reasonable which could have been tried, has been tried.

In an instance where we are dealing with what may potentially be a lifelong-compromised Pigeon....I would not want to leave the Bird where he/she is.... still wondering whether that alternate med might be the one which would have healed him....

This is why I make the suggestion and I really feel that I needed to clarify this. Thanks.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jaye. In your last reply, you had mentioned about amoxcyllin and probiotics. In your last sentence you said 'why dont you give it a try', and I took it to be the probiotics that you meant, not the amoxcyllin 
If you feel Amoxcy is worth a try, I will definitely give it a shot. To be honest, I do have an aversion for antibiotics. I dont use it for my human family either usually. Maybe it has to do with the fact that antibiotics are curative but not proactive in action. While many herbal remedies and holistic ways of healing are. But I have used them in emergencies, and got saved too..
And coming to think of it, Rudy IS in an emergency, though not apparent. His life is no normal way to live. So I will definitely give Amoxy a try!
Thanks Jaye.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well....I meant Amoxy, but it wouldn't be a bad idea, perhaps, to give the probiotics a try first for a few weeks. if nothing improves from that, then try the Amoxy.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you Kunju for being so humble and receptive to ideas. I hope Rudy recovers soon. He is indeed lucky to have been found by a kind and caring human being.

Good luck!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jaye and Miss Sassypants. I have already started him on Amoxcyllin, so I think I will better complete the course for 10 days. I am giving the probiotic also, which I am thinking of continuing beyond the 10 days for a longer period.
His poop has become grainy and dry. Does it have anything to do with the antibiotic/probiotic?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I don't think probiotics will do anythng given he is on an antibiotic. I would stop the probiotic, and begin it after the Amoxy course is done....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

ok, thanks. I will do just that.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Also, if you are giving multivitamins which contain calcium (almost all do) discontinue those while you are giving amoxicillin, because the calcium binds the antibiotic reducing it's effectiveness. The same applies to mineral grit with calcium.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

No I 'm not giving calcium to him. Not the mineral grit also. 
Thanks for the information anyway!


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Jaye said:


> I don't think probiotics will do anythng given he is on an antibiotic. I would stop the probiotic, and begin it after the Amoxy course is done....





> Should you take antibiotics and probiotics at the same time? Or, should you take probiotics with antibiotics or after? The answer is to take antibiotics and probiotics together but not at the same time. A rule of thumb is to take your probiotic 2 hours before or 2 hours after taking your antibiotic. This gives sufficient time for the antibiotic to work while not killing off the beneficial bacteria. If you wait until your antibiotic therapy is over to take your probiotics (typically 7-10 days), then you will have needlessly suffered digestive upset for over a week.


( http://www.vitamedica.com/antibiotics-and-probiotics-what-you-need-to-know/ ) That's about humans, but I think it applies to any other animal, pigeons included.

But of course you should continue with the probiotic, after the antibiotic.

...

I'm not very sure, but I don't think calcium interacts with Amoxicillin.
http://www.drugs.com/drug-interacti...-calcium-with-vitamin-d-188-0-2917-13118.html

Also, on this page about possible interactions of calcium with different medications, Amoxicillin is NOT mentioned: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/calcium-000945.htm


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## Hylianprincess7 (Apr 7, 2012)

The thing with giving him probios with antibios is... well.... It isn't a bad thing, worst case scenario is that the probios get destroyed by the antibios, balancing it out (depending on which biotic is more powerful). It's best to do what they have said.  You can't really lose by giving both at the same time, but in reality, unless the probio is more potent/higher in dosage, then there really isn't any gain either. I did that with two of my doves--both ill. I saw no improvement at all when I mixed the pro and antibiotic, but when I started the antibiotic, and then gave them probiotics after the antibiotic duration required to help did indeed help, I noticed almost immediately, my doves returned to their normal, perky selves. It helps a lot to use it to catch up, rather than balance out. 

Hope that helps. If you need me to clarify, I will.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks . I think that makes sense. To give the probiotic not immediately but little after. Anyway it is harmless to try, so I think I will do that.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Hylianprincess7 said:


> worst case scenario is that the probios get destroyed by the antibios, balancing it out (depending on which biotic is more powerful)...


All the articles i read about this say the same thing:* taking a probiotic will not make an antibiotic less effective*. But, antibiotics can make probiotics less effective.


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## Hylianprincess7 (Apr 7, 2012)

jondove said:


> All the articles i read about this say the same thing:* taking a probiotic will not make an antibiotic less effective*. But, antibiotics can make probiotics less effective.


Yeah. Kinda what I was trying to explain in a round about way, but you worded it much better than my currently exhausted mind did.  Lol.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Interesting...my recollection from past comments on this forum is that there's little point in putting a probi on top of an antibiotic, but rather should be given afterward.


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## Hylianprincess7 (Apr 7, 2012)

Jaye said:


> Interesting...my recollection from past comments on this forum is that there's little point in putting a probi on top of an antibiotic, but rather should be given afterward.


Again, that's what I'm trying to say. It's not of much gain to use them with anti. It just counter-acts it, and nullifies the affects of th probiotic. There's no loss, but if you want the pros to take effect, then mixing the two will initially cause little to no progress at all.

The pro should be given after. Not after one dose, but after the entire duration that the bird is kept on antibiotics. 

That's what I _meant_ to say. Hopefully it makes a bit more sense, now that I'm awake. Lol.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Antibiotics kill bacteria, Probiotic are a way of putting good bacteria into a body. Therefore using them together as said will lead to all the beneficial bacteria you are trying to establish being killed by the antibiotic having no ill effects but no benefits either.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Antibiotics kill bacteria, Probiotic are a way of putting good bacteria into a body. Therefore using them together as said will lead to all the beneficial bacteria you are trying to establish being killed by the antibiotic having no ill effects but no benefits either.





> Up to one in five people on antibiotics stop taking their full course of antibiotic therapy due to diarrhea. Physicians could help patients avoid this problem by prescribing probiotics, according to a study by researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University published in American Family Physician.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217190443.htm



> During antibiotic therapy, taking probiotics as well keeps the intestinal flora in proper balance. They can be taken together, but not at the same time of day. In order for the probiotics to be the most effective, they should be taken at least two hours after each dose of antibiotic. When the treatment has been completed, double or triple the probiotic supplements for about ten days or two weeks.


http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/biotics/probiot.htm



> Take a dose of probiotics twice a day, preferably at least a half hour, or more, before eating. Also, take doses a couple of hours apart from taking antibiotics doses. Do not skip a dose, as that will delay the helpful bacteria's colonization in your digestive tract. Continue taking probiotics for at least a couple of weeks after you have finished your course of antibiotics. If you have stopped taking the probiotics and you begin having any gastrointestinal symptoms, resume taking them.


http://www.ehow.com/way_5752796_directions-taking-antibiotics-probiotics.html



> *Why Take Them Together*
> As antibiotics kill the good bacteria along with the bad, they compromise your natural defense system against disease by depleting your body of probiotics. Your doctor may recommend you supplement the microorganisms to restore your gut's supply if you have to take an antibiotic. The University of Maryland also says that probiotics may prevent diarrhea that results from taking antibiotics.
> 
> *Preventing Interaction*
> Taking the two products together does not have to mean that you ingest them at the same time. Follow your doctor’s instructions about how to time your daily dosages of antibiotics and probiotics. The general recommendation to prevent an interaction is to take them a minimum of two hours apart from each other. The spacing allows time for your digestive system to absorb the antibiotics, moving them out of the intestines and into the bloodstream. By the time you take the probiotics, your gut has become a friendly environment again.


http://www.livestrong.com/article/539005-do-probiotics-stop-antibiotics-from-working/




> during the period of antibiotics intake, take two or more doses of probiotics in the day time. Take probiotics at least 3 hours apart from antibiotics.


http://EzineArticles.com/2209693



> Taking probiotics together with the antibiotics could prevent associated diarrhoea.


http://www.hta.ac.uk/project/2009.asp



> Myth #14: Don’t take probiotics while taking antibiotics.
> RSP: Not true. This is something we had to learn by working with many doctors: Gastroenterologists and other specialists have found it’s best to co-administer high potency probiotics with antibiotics. The secret is not to take them at the same exact time. Separating the two by 3-6 hours is best. Since most antibiotics are water soluble, they absorb in the upper G.I. tract. Probiotics work mainly in the lower G.I. tract – so giving antibiotics time to absorb and get out of the way is the key.
> Of course, there will be some inhibition/killing of probiotics so it is vital that you stay on high potency probiotics well after the antibiotics are finished...


http://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0415/

Does anyone still need more convincing?


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## Hylianprincess7 (Apr 7, 2012)

jondove said:


> Does anyone still need more convincing?


Haha. Think you cleared it up well.  I had been told by some people that it was a good thing, but most told me it was a big no-no to 'balance' it by having my bird take anti with pro (not at the same time of day, but mixing the two in general). My avian vet took high offense to the question of even putting the bird on a probio after. All the mixed info can get pretty confusing. 

Thanks for the clarification. That's a big help.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jondove. I am doing the same thing, giving probiotic in the mid-time between the morning and night doses of amoxcy.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Wow, thanks Walter! You've convinced me - I was right up there with Myth#14, but now thanks to you I know better - which is great because I have a pigeon on antibiotics right now - I'll put this knowledge to practice. 

In my native Bulgaria, there's even another myth - that taking the two together is not only useless (as I myself thought), but that probiotics actually lessen the effectiveness of antibiotics when given together because the bacteria killing action action of antibiotics is "exhausted" on the wrong bacteria.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Everybody

Rudy is doing slightly better. He is off antibiotics now. 
He has started to walk with more control. 
Now the only apparent problem is his head ducking in times of stress.
At those times when he is completely at peace, he looks almost normal.
He still sleeps which his head down and tail up.
Ever since he has gained control over head movements, he doesn't like to be fed from a bowl. I scatter grains over a piece of carpet, and he pecks and eats every tiny seed. It really feels good to see him act like a normal pigeon after a long time!!
The bump on his head has dried off, but another smaller one has appeared just in front of it, on the same right side of the head. There are no bumps anywhere else on the head. This one will also dry off soon I suppose. Dont know if it is pox, is it possible that there are only 2 bumps if it is pox? Or will more appear with time? 
I am giving him Vit-B and Piracetam. On the whole, I feel he is going to be alright soon.
@ Jaye:You had mentioned in one of the other posts that you feel Rudy is going to get better definitely. I guess you were right!
Thanks to all of you for the lovely support  I didn't know a single thing about pigeons when I joined here, this site has been really life-saving for my Rudy!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad he's doing so much better. I think he will continue to improve, although in times of stress, the symptoms can reappear for a bit. Better not to release a bird like that, as you never know when they may come back on him. BTW, good job!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Rudy is doing a lot better now, though some symptoms still remain. He still tends to tilt his head and look through one eye. And the slightest stress like someone suddenly entering the room makes him duck his head and walk backwards. But this is momentary so I think its not a big issue. 
He has become of a more soft and emotional nature lately, and hates to be left alone. If we forget to notice him for a while, he gives out a low-pitched moan (Does anyone's pigeon do that?)

The two fluid-filled bumps he had on his head are completely dried off now, but they remain on his head as hard bumps which look like small mountains, with a crusty lid on the top of each mountain. I don't know whether anything should be done for them, I see him scratching there at times, but he does scratch in other places too. Has anyone noticed such bumps for their pigeons before?


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