# Would this be a terrible thing to do?



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have racing pigeons and want to conduct an experiment. I want to "steal" some feral pigeon eggs (maybe four) and place them under my racing pigeons (after taking measures to "clean" the feral eggs), and raise the feral youngsters with my racers and test them against my racers for homing and speed ability.

I understand that there is a slight possibility that any feral eggs I get, could have a lost or excaped homing pigeons genes in it, but that is probably not likely (except maybe many generations back). I figued on locating some feral nests in some abandoned buildings around town.

1) Would this be interferring with nature to an extent that I should not do it?

2) Has anyone done this before, and if so, could you share how it turned out?

3) Anyone know approximately when feral pigeons in southern Ohio start laying?

Thanks.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

NOT a good idea..........first of all, taking the eggs is just wrong. Period. Then there's the question of WHEN the eggs were laid, WHEN will they hatch?, WHAT IF they hatch 5 days after you get them and YOUR birds aren't ready to take care of them with the pigeon milk, etc.........
This is just wrong.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I have racing pigeons and want to conduct an experiment. I want to "steal" some feral pigeon eggs (maybe four) and place them under my racing pigeons (after taking measures to "clean" the feral eggs), and raise the feral youngsters with my racers and test them against my racers for homing and speed ability.
> 
> I understand that there is a slight possibility that any feral eggs I get, could have a lost or excaped homing pigeons genes in it, but that is probably not likely (except maybe many generations back). I figued on locating some feral nests in some abandoned buildings around town.
> 
> ...


first quesstion....why?

homing pigeons have been bred for generations for their homing ability, I think crossing out would take away from that...don't know for sure just my opinion.

timing it would be hard, the eggs would have to be in the same stage as the parent/foster birds pigeon milk.

why not just buy some ybs from some healthy stock racers....

if you really want a side project, I would save some young babies from getting killed or poisoned and raise them and breed them with your birds...but if you don't like what you get, they still need a loving home...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't think taking eggs from ferals is a good idea either. Morally, it feels wrong to me.
I do have to say though, that the ferals I have known can home just fine and they are very fast about it.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Taking eggs from most species of birds is illegal and could get someone at least a hefty fine. Taking eggs from feral pigeons is, in my book, equally wrong even if 'the law' doesn't see it that way. 

John


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

i wouldnt do it! not fair on the feral parents.the only way in which i would ever contemplate this is if i knew both parents were dead and the eggs would perish,then its giving them a chance,but if parents are there no definatly not


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## Bulldog pigeon (Nov 15, 2008)

Go to a place that you know is going to kill the feral pigeons and get 2 pair take them home and make them part of your loft and use their young to perform your race experiment. Just make sure to quarantine, vaccinate and treat them like you bought them. Worst case scenario you rescued 2 birds.
It is not hard to make a trap cage with a bob type trap door and some food.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't understand the obsession with "testing" ferals. It's not like you're the first person to do it. LOTS of people have tried it and it just doesn't work. They may home from a certain distance and you MIGHT MAYBE get lucky and get one that can home from 150 or 200 miles........but even if you do, which I doubt, what's the point? It's STILL a feral and the chances of you getting more than a couple in your lifetime to perform is slim to none. Just don't get it. Hell, it's hard enough to get a RACE bird that's bred for the purpose of homing from great distances, to come home........just leave the ferals alone and let them be what they're intended to be.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Have you though seriously about how you intend to find feral eggs? The ferals go to great lengths to hide their nests, for the obvious reasons. You might find a baby somewhere in the spring that has fallen out of its nest or has left the nest because of some threat, but they very rarely live more than hours at most.
The babies that you see on the street are usually chasing their mothers for food and the wild instinct is very ingrained by then.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You probably don't need to do the research. The probable outcomes are that your homers are better at homing, probably faster, and healthier. The ferals, however, probably have greater survival mechanism or "hardened" given they stay outside almost all the time.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I have racing pigeons and want to conduct an experiment. I want to "steal" some feral pigeon eggs (maybe four) and place them under my racing pigeons (after taking measures to "clean" the feral eggs), and raise the feral youngsters with my racers and test them against my racers for homing and speed ability.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



I will tell you my experienced about ferals and flying with my flock...I trained a feral like my byoung birds and this feral is my homing feral, they do have a homing ability but compare to the speed and agility of other breed, not sure how different it is...

I had a feral bird that I raised and got matured with my flying flocks, then of course he/she fly with my birds to the extent that sometimes he/she land 1st while my birds are still flying, I did took my feral with my birds to some distance and came back (e.g. 5 miles the farthest) then I figure my young birds knows how far is the home with the distance of 5 miles so I took everybody to 20 miles, I would like to know how far is the ability of my young birds with the feral bird, sad to say my feral didn't make it home, now for my opinion about it is; maybe he is not capable of flying 50 feet high than the roof top or maybe he can't catch up with the others, I'm not really sure why he didn't make it back, but one thing I know for sure he is well and healthy to make it on his/her own out there...


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Wel. A lot to address. First of all. I never said anything about crossing a feral with my racers, although that is obviously a possible experiment if ferals pass muster on some of the traits we homing racers like. Secondly: Why? Simply to satisfy my curiousity. The same reason that many advancements in science and other such endeavors came about. Why did someone decide to try and ride a horse? Or breed homing pigeons from ferals, in the first place? Why does someone clone a sheep or try out drugs on animals, that may lead to saving human lives? Why "see" if the liver from a pig can be successfully transplanted into a human? A million whys in the world, and a million reasons why.

I am not talking about killing anything. A pigeon, pure bred or feral, will not suffer heartbreak if their eggs are taken. They will carry on and forget it in a couple of days or a couple of hours. The babies will be raised and taken care of very well by foster parents. It is done all of the time with racing and other types of pigeons. Ever hear of "pumpers"? How many pigeon keepers break up pairs and re-pair up birds, even though they mate for life? Is that cruel? Does that cause heartbreak or sadness? Does selling a pairs offspring cause sadness to either the young birds or the parents? Of course not. At least not for more than a few minutes, if at all.

What I propose is not cruel. It is not illegal. It is not acting like God. It is a simple experiment to see how much difference there is between feral pigeons and so called purebred pigeons.

I know enough about raising, breeding and rearing pigeons to know how to do this simple experiment, without endangering any birds. Eggs can be located very simply. Their nest are among the least hidden nests of any birds. Eggs can be candled easily to ascertain how far along they are. They can be replaced with other eggs that are just as far along in the hatching process. It would not be a burden to check feral nests every day to ascertain when was day four in the process, and likewise have racers on eggs that are on day four. Switching eggs is not only condoned in this hobby. It is the norm.

I do not find it cruel. I know that it is not illegal. I do not find it immoral nor a danger to any of the birds involved. Yea, sure I could possibly drop an egg. But hey, bad stuff happens. Accidents happen.

It is a simple experiment, just like breeding pigeons early by artificially increasing how many hours of light they receive in the winter months, trying to get babies just a little sooner than the next guy.

These are pigeons. Not humans. Not elephants nor even dogs. I love my pigeons as much as the next person, but I am not silly about it. I do not have them flying around the inside of my home, nor do I pay to bury them in a pet cemetery when they die. I do not cull. I feed them very well. I provide them with everything and more, that they need and desire. They are free to go if they so choose. They are protected from predators, hunters and the weather, as best as I am humanly capable of doing, while still allowing them freedom. My twenty six pigeons are, I am sure, as well taken care of as anyones who is reading this. They have a brand new loft and an enclosed aviary that is thirty x 12 feet, plus they are let out twice a day to fly in the sky for a few minutes, so that the hawks do not get them. They are given bath water every day except in the cold of winter. I have one that lost its banded leg, so it is useless for racing, yet she is free to live here for her entire life.

I thank most for their thoughts on the subject. If I am able to conduct this experiement, I will. I was hoping someone knew of this already being done, so that I might read up on it, or hear about any pitfalls others encountered. It is my theory that ferals are hardier and therefore, maybe better for bad weather races, but the homing ability is probably lacking. I will never know unless it has been tested by me or someone else. There are other aspects to this experiement that I have not addressed. I just want to know. That's why. Not a big deal I think.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

This may be out of place, but just wanted to say a couple of things.

I released two baby pigeons ( hopefully a boy and a girl, who were given to me at the age of between 2 and 3 weeks old; they didn't come from the same place ) a couple of weeks ago. They didn't show up to feed at the very beginning but now everyday around the same time I see them with their adult flock, which makes me very happy to know that they made it.

Anyway, if they mated and produced eggs which were taken, for instance, by you for your experiment, because those were the very first eggs they produced, they may feel puzzled or evern devastated to have them disappear all of a sudden. Only because those were the VERY FIRST eggs they produced. I am just guessing, of course.
But, if it happens that they have been mating for some time and the eggs that were taken by you were the 3rd sets in the 2nd year of their adult life, it may not be as bad as the first ones. They may not have as much brain, so, naturally as much feelings as we can experience, but we can only guess what they are thinking and feeling. If most of them mate for life, they seem a whole lot smarter than we are, to me!!

Anyway, I certainly don't want you to take my babies' first layed eggs!!! And this only comes from me, not them.

The second thing I would like to say, is that, yes, curiosity made us humans come up with life-saving discoveries and advancement in technology, etc., etc. So, I understand you just want to find out. I am, in the same way, ( especially after reading that others also wonder where all those pigeons go in the very bad weather ) very curious to know exactly where they go to fend themselves from the worst of weathers. If they had microchips implanted in them, maybe I can trace their whereabouts..... Of course, I don't have money or the means to get it done, and I am OK with not knowing, but it surely would satisfy my curiosity if I knew.

So, on the one hand, it may seem a little cruel to steal eggs from them, but on the other, it could be helping someone or some situation in the long run besides satifying your curiosity. (That's why people used to steal cadavers SECRETLY!!) Demi


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

conditionfreak said:


> I have racing pigeons and want to conduct an experiment.
> 
> *I want to "steal" some feral pigeon eggs* (maybe four) and place them under my racing pigeons (after taking measures to "clean" the feral eggs), and raise the feral youngsters with my racers and test them against my racers for homing and speed ability.
> 
> Thanks.


The bottom line here is *"stealing"* anything, in any manner, for any purpose is wrong, period.  

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

It sounds to me like you have pretty much talked yourself into doing this, even when given all the good advice. The members who responded to your questions are professionals and have had years of expereince, and were kind enough to take the time to respond to your questions.

There is more to just homing instinct that qualifies them (a homing pigeon) to be better at flying and racing. You can ask any expert here. There is the size of wings, the overall body shape, health, etc.

Our ferals are part of God's creation too, and should be respected and left alone.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Think About It*

*Hi Conditionfreak,I may be going against the grain but here is what I would do.First I would not take any eggs but I would get a pair of feral pigeons. I would then clean them up that is health wise, feed them well so as to have them in the best of health before they lay their eggs.Let them raise their own young.Now if you were lucky and just happened to raise a feral that flew well and won a race or two from lets say 150 miles. You would still have the parents of this winning feral to breed from,this way you could see if they could produce you another winner,and just a one timer. THINK ABOUT IT*GEORGE


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, I'm not going to say yea or nay cause I just don't know enough about the subject BUT, I think your title to this thread may give you the answer - 
"Would this be a terrible thing to do?".....

Seems to me you questioned doing this to begin with so I would go with that.

BTW, you wrote an excellent post outlining your position. It won't sway me one way or the other but it was good.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ok, I misunderstood...I thought you were wanting to cross some into your flock...I see, you want babies to train as they are homers and see how they do...I think you could try this and see what happens...but the question is where to get the eggs...you could possibly find some city pigeons that have made nests in areas that people are not happy about and ask them if you can get some eggs before they destroy nests and try to run off the ferals..at least those eggs YOU get won't be destroyed and have a chance to live a nice long life and be well fed if they hatch...in that kind of situation the eggs would be destoryed anyway so.....go for it...but you have to let us know what happens and post pics of the babies and progress as it would be interesting......the draw back I have is that homers have been bred so well to to home, I just don't see a feral compairison even if they do home, i just don't think it would be as good as a well bred homer....but that is what the experiment is for..so you will see, as I think you already have your mind made up...good luck...


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

demi made some good points both for and against my idea. Although I do not believe (and all of those experts here I am sure, will also agree) that pigeons will not be devastated by the taking of their eggs, for more than a few minutes if at all. There is a poem that played at the end of the movie "G.I. Jane" (I forget who it is by) which goes something like this:

"A bird will fall frozen to death, from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself"

The point being. Animals do not feel sorry for themselves. They just go on about the business of living. Humans are the ones who always feel sorry for themselves. A three legged dog does not feel sorry for itself. A cat who has her kittens taken and given to other "strangers" does not feel any anger or pain because her kittens are gone. She may search for them or even whine, but it is because of nature to take care of her own. Not because she is suffering heartbreak. She will forget all about the kittens gone, in minutes. Take one pup from a litter of dogs, and minutes later the mother dog has forgotten all about that puppy being gone. I have raised many dogs and I know this for a fact. Take the eggs (even the first laid by a pair) of pigeons, and they forget about it in mere minutes and go about their lives. Let's not romanticize this pigeons and their offspring thing. They take good care of their offspring usually, but they are also equipped by nature, to move on and forget them almost immediately, when they are taken by a predator or by me.

Now, as to "stealing" is NEVER right. Well, I could type a long list of when stealing IS right. The law and government do it all of the time. Is it "stealing" to take some of my money and give it to others, in the name of compassion welfare, Social Security, WIC, etc? Is it "stealing" for child social services to take someones child that is not being cared for properly? Is it "stealing" to take a dead mole from your dog or cat? Is it "stealing" to take eggs from your prize winning pigeons that you are trying to breed, and put them under a pair of "pumpers", when the parents have been shown to do a lousy job raising their own offspring? Is it "stealing" to take seeds from flowers, so that you can grow some of the same in a pot? This notion that "stealing" is NEVER right, is, well....silly.

I agree that I have made up my mind, but all will have to go well in order for me to carry out my little experiment. I will not do it nilly willy. I do want to "know" if environment is a huge factor in how a street pigeon may perform. In other words, if a street pigeon is raised in an environment whereupon it receives excellent food and water, vaccinations, vitamin supplements, protection from the elements, training, etc., will it perform and grow better than it would otherwise? Or is environment a minor factor and it is all about genetics? Sure enough a racing pigeon is bigger and stronger and healthier. But, that does not equate to performance necessarily. The best runners in the world come from Ethiopia. The best NBA players in the world come from the run down and poor neighborhoods. The best , most powerful, and having the most stamina, canines in the world, are found in the wild.

Purebred anything, "loses" something. JUst by being purebred. Most dog breeders understand that a mongrel is generally more healthier than a purebred. Hip dysplasia and epilepsi are almost non existant in mongrel dogs, but prevalent in many pure bred strains.

The list goes on and on.

I understand that I am on a site frequented almost exclusivly by bird (pigeon and dove) lovers. That is why I am here also. But some of these arguments and points are just silly.

Especially given the fact that I am most likely the ONLY one of this group that is a vegitarian (which requires me to "steal" the offspring from orange and apple trees). How can one rail against "stealing" eggs from a street pigeon, or chatize me for "breaking the hearts of some parent birds", when those same people sit down and eat a steak, or eat fried chicken, or a Big Mac? Maybe feed your dog or cat food made from some pigs', goats', cows' or horses' (do they do that anymore) offspring? How many of you go fishing? Stealing those poor fish from their environment. Then either throw them back or eat them?

I appreciate everyones opinions. I hope my opinions are also appreciated. It is good to see things from the prospective of others. I will post next year, how my experiment went. I already had a feral youngster in my loft that I got as a squeaker, and I lost it on a training flight from fifty miles. It had come home from a 40 mile and lesser training flights, with my flock previously. It saddens me of course, but it happens. I lost a white racer the same way and it saddened me also. I want to try to get them before they hatch, to take away any element of the first month of their life (before I obtained it) having been not so good (weather, food, etc).

Thanks.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I just read the postings from George Simon (great poster who I admire a lot), Spirit Wings (also one who's previous postings I enjoy) and Lady Tarheel (whom I am not too familiar with but it sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders).

I read those three after my last posting and I hope that they do not take any offense that I was posting to them. I was not.

I could edit my last posting (because I do not want to make any enemies), but I will not. I am a little upset that "some" have made me out to be a "baby stealer". I am not. No more than one who takes grapes from a vine.

As usual George, you make a good point, but I do not want to have any prisoners if I can avoid it. I have a few and do not like it.

Thanks.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

If the birrds you decide to take are indeed homers , when you are done why not just let them return home. Maybe it will just be a bad vacation for them>Kevin


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

conditionfreak said:


> demi made some good points both for and against my idea. Although I do not believe (and all of those experts here I am sure, will also agree) that pigeons will not be devastated by the taking of their eggs, for more than a few minutes if at all. There is a poem that played at the end of the movie "G.I. Jane" (I forget who it is by) which goes something like this:
> 
> "A bird will fall frozen to death, from a bough
> without ever having felt sorry for itself"
> ...


So, basically what you are saying is it's ok for us (humans) to do whatever we want to with animals because they don't REALLY have any feelings................



conditionfreak said:


> I understand that I am on a site frequented almost exclusivly by bird (pigeon and dove) lovers. That is why I am here also. But some of these arguments and points are just silly.
> 
> 
> 
> *Especially given the fact that I am most likely the ONLY one of this group that is a vegitarian* You're QUITE wrong there


Don't know about the rest of the members here, but I for one don't appreciate anyone telling me that the way I think and the way I feel is SILLY....
Bottom line is this.......you asked a question, you got answers and you don't like SOME of the answers you got. Well, then you should have gone on and done what you planned to do and not asked for "opinions" because I think you're smart enough to know that at least some of us wouldn't agree with what you are planning...........so, why ask the question and then tell SOME of us that we're "SILLY" for what we said????


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, LoveBirds. I said "most likely", which is not a for sure statement of fact.

Additionally, I don't like someone passing judgement on me by telling me that what I am planning to do is just "plain wrong". Maybe if you said that you don't agree with it, or that it is something you yourself could not do, I would be okay with it. But to conclude that what I want to do is "just plain wrong" is a little elitist. My title of this thread, does indeed call for thoughts pro and con, but it does not call for calling in question my morals. It calls for a debate, civily, of an experiment. Maybe I should have worded it differently but I suspect it would not have mattered. I know enough already about you and some others, that anyone who even curses at a pigeon is looked down upon, from your lofty perch up high.

I guess you missed the whole thing about how I feel about and interact with animals. I never said:
"So, basically what you are saying is it's ok for us (humans) to do whatever we want to with animals because they don't REALLY have any feelings".

As a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. You just want to "win" and are grasping for straws. My postings showed yours for what it is: silly.

There, I said it.

Have a nice day.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Couple of small points CF;

First, "stealing" is taking that which does not belong to you. It is severly punished for that reason in most civilized countries. It is no defense to say that others do it so you are justified in doing it too. Nor is it any defense to argue that because the owner does not feel, or is incapable of feeling remorse or sadness, stealing is justified. By that logic, the strong would always prey on the weak and excuse themselves by belittling the weaker one's lack of remorse, when the real issue is that weaker ones, animals included, are just trying to survive and perhaps do not have the time and resources to mourn their losses. You may be interested to know however, that doves and pigeons mate for life and the loss of a mate results in mourning and depression. Geese also suffer and mourn the loss of family members and mates; see Prof. Lorenz work, "The Graylag Goose". As far as the poet in GI Jane, it is perhaps fatuous to point out that death has a certain finality, for humans as well as animals, so that speculation about ones last moments of life are juvenile speculation.

Your profession to be a vegetarian is truly astonishing, when it is made in he same breath that you mention that breeding or manipulating reproduction of mammals results in undesirable results for the mammals. That is of course an observation made by the monk Gregor Mendelev over 150 years ago. Vegetarians on the other hand are usually drawn to their belief? confession? interest? because of their opinions about the violence and brutality of carnivorism. I would think it difficult, if not simply hypocrisy to proclaim one's diet is governed by compassion for animals and in he same breath justify pointless breeding experiments with animals just for one's self amusement?


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Omg!!!*

Here's another discussion that I think there's a pros and cons about the topic...

Like the other member here, who wants to do what he/she want to do for what he/she think it's better or he/she is not hurting anyone, so I say to that, Well so be it, do what you think makes you happy...It's not like we can tell everyone here what to do with their daily lives...What we only want to address is something that is NOT normal for everybody to do, e.g. pumpering a feral egg and let the homer hatch it then raise it for what ever reason, if that makes you happy so do it, I can suggest that please do take all the eggs and bring it to where ever you want them to hatch and if you want more there's more here in New York City...I'm not pissing people off but come on, bottom line, "can we actually tell you not to do it or beg you not to do what you want to do"? I guess not..Let me add a little more, since it was mentioned that a feral were released with-in 50 miles range and got lost that only means that, that feral pigeon is not capable of flying with certain distance, less to say, they can not fly higher like the homing pigeons...So I will end my opinion about this and you go on about your experiment...Let us know if you do fail...But if you succeed that only means you will be famous and we won't hear from you...


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> It is my theory that ferals are hardier and therefore, maybe better for bad weather races, but the homing ability is probably lacking. I will never know unless it has been tested by me or someone else. There are other aspects to this experiement that I have not addressed. I just want to know. That's why. Not a big deal I think.


By saying harder is that mean tough in bad weather conditions?
Is that what you are trying to experiment? you want to prove a point to race feral/s because you think they are better to bad weather races? I haven't race yet but from what I was told the club will be responsible for the safety of the birds and also they have to know if the weather permits, unless/otherwise it's raining or bad weather condition at the release point and they have no choice to hold the birds due to lack of feed other than that if they have to wait for few minutes to let all the birds out when the rain stop or move where less wind blows...If you want to raise, band and train a feral/s and join the race with the homing pigeons, I say everybody knows feral don't race, in other words you will lose...Or maybe the club won't accept it, I don't know...


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pegasus said:


> Here's another discussion that I think there's a pros and cons about the topic...
> 
> Like the other member here, who wants to do what he/she want to do for what he/she think it's better or he/she is not hurting anyone, so I say to that, Well so be it, do what you think makes you happy...It's not like we can tell everyone here what to do with their daily lives...What we only want to address is something that is NOT normal for everybody to do, e.g. pumpering a feral egg and let the homer hatch it then raise it for what ever reason, if that makes you happy so do it, I can suggest that please do take all the eggs and bring it to where ever you want them to hatch and if you want more there's more here in New York City...I'm not pissing people off but come on, bottom line, "can we actually tell you not to do it or beg you not to do what you want to do"? I guess not..Let me add a little more, since it was mentioned that a feral were released with-in 50 miles range and got lost that only means that, that feral pigeon is not capable of flying with certain distance, less to say, they can not fly higher like the homing pigeons...So I will end my opinion about this and you go on about your experiment...Let us know if you do fail...But if you succeed that only means you will be famous and we won't hear from you...



All we did was answer the question as to what we thought about what CF was planning on doing. CF brought it up.........asked the question.......got answers that weren't in their line of thought, so lashed out at us. I'm done with this thread.........not worth the hassle, hurt feeling, or whatever is going to wind up coming of the thread. I said how I feel. Others have said how they feel and no one is going to change anyones mind........Done......outta here.....


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Grimaldy: I do not understand some of your posting. I guess because I am on a different level of education (obviously lower) than you are. However I did get that you possibly believe that I am not being truthful about being a veggin (I am, albeit not for nearly as long as I have lived. Used to be that all I ate was meat, bread and potato's, until the darn hunters shot and ate my beloved Kobe, my pet deer). I also "get" that you think because of the poem I referenced, has to do with the bird dying, that it only pertains to the birds last minutes. It does not. It in fact refers to the entire life of the bird or animal, and that the poem also insinuates that only humans "feel" sorry for themselves. I also "get" that you insinuate that I am a hypocrit because I detest the eating of meat due to my love for animals, and that it does not "jive' with my intended experiment. Well, my intended experiment is not going to harm one living thing. Eating meat does. All babies involved will be raised and what happens to them will be what happens to them. If I switch week old eggs from ferals, with week old eggs from racers, both pairs of parents will have their babies and will not know the difference. That is one way of doing it. There are other ways to conduct the "stealing". I also submit that no experiment is pointless. It may not be significant to you, but it may be of great importance to someone else. It is like the NFL or the WWF. To me, they are silly. But to others, they are of the utmost importance.

Pegasus: I don't know how much you know about racing pigeons (or just about any breed of pigeons), but loses occur. The feral I lost could have been taken by a predator, just as my lost racer could have been. A lost pigeon does not necessarily translate to the pigeon in question being sub-performing or having less homing ability.

Again, thanks for the imput. It is good to hear opposing sides of any argument. That is why we have prosecutors and defense attorneys.

Thanks to those that many years ago, decided to experiment with feral pigeons and produced the many and glorious pigeons we have in our lofts today. I wonder how many of those early peoples had someone tell them how pointless and meaningless their experiments with breeding feral pigeons then, was.

Now, tell me who among you, has never taken an egg from a pair of birds, either to discard because you did not want more birds, or to eat, or to place under some other pair of birds? Inquiring minds want to know. I submit, that If you have never done this sort of thing, then you know nothing about pigeons or birds, and have little experience with them.

I could be wrong, because I am not the brightest light bulb on the Christmas tree, but probably not.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Pegasus: you obviously have a different first language, other than english, because you mistakenly understood that I said "harder" when I actually wrote "hardier". Not tougher or harder, although they almost mean the same thing. It is my belief that purebred anythings (dogs, horses, pigeons, or what have you, may imporve health wise, with in infusion of their "wild" ancestors, although that is a whole other argument and not one that I have the years left to investigate and institute). Yes, this is simple idea I have in my head, just to satisfy my curiousity. I do not care if anyone agrees with me or not, but I do like to hear differing points of view and maybe something I have not thought of in regards to my idea.

As a parting thought to LoveBirds, let me just quote: "It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can only
do a little." I think it fits.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> Pegasus: I don't know how much you know about racing pigeons (or just about any breed of pigeons), but loses occur. The feral I lost could have been taken by a predator, just as my lost racer could have been. A lost pigeon does not necessarily translate to the pigeon in question being sub-performing or having less homing ability.


Okay so are you saying that the feral you released with your homers and the ferals with my homers that I released before was taken by a predator? I'm only sharing you what I experienced flying feral with my homers, I didn't wrote you a letter nor call you to raise, take care and train a feral just to see if my feral got eaten by a predator...I don't know what happen to your bird and I don't know what happen to mine, but one reason and one reason only... They can't keep up or they have bad homing instinct...So what we are saying is what ever is your full experiment is, it's not going to work...

If something I don't understand, I will never call it silly...I call it OLD school...

After this edit I swear to myself I will never ever share my thoughts with you or anything you want to do, I'm not saying I'm better than anybody here but I think speaking multiple languages is a lot better than just 1 native tongue...I can tell, you got insulted from some words I've said and I don't mean to do that, I'm only stating my thoughts and not to offend you...Goodbye and Have a nice night...


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## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

Alright, you are a pursuasive person. I was almost persuaded by one of your post. YOu asked us if it was a terrible thing. And most replied yes. Then you defended yourself. So if you want our advice don't do it. Taking an animal from where it is already comfortable has no point. If I were you I would do rescues and If I came upon a pair that needed to be rescued than great. But I would Not experiment on it. I would train it to become the best racer that it could. And if it isn't cut out for racing than put it in an aviary with other ferals and let it live its life how it wants. 

There, there are my two cents worth. 

P.S Sorry for my spelling because some words are spelled wrong but I hope you can still understand the words. 

Just edited by thing again I wrote "I would experiment on it." lol wrong stuff. I tricked you made you think I was on a different side than I was. lol


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

To CF,

Please, let's not posture about education levels; your writing is not primary grade school. Besides intellect has little to do with education.

My point about your being a vegetarian has nothing to do about your emotional attitude to animals. As I pointed out, over 150 years ago an obscure Russian monk (Mendel, sorry) proved that genetic manipulation does great harm to mammals in the long run. In the short run so-called breeders manipulate genetics for some short term gain and as you correctly point out, the dog breeders produce monsters and cripples in the long run. I suggest to you that it is the feral pigeon that is the true genetic repository of all that is great and wonderful in the pigeon, not the other way around.

Second, you have changed your story. Initially you said you would only have feral eggs hatched by domestic pigeons and then by some sort of behavioral osmosis see what the result might be. I noted then you did not explain how you proposed to keep the ferals segregated so they would not breed with the domestics, which would have been a prerequisite to any meaningful "scientific experiment". But it is idle curiosity that motivates you I see, not science. It is in your post of 10:35 that you begin to talk of breeding. To be frank if your so-called experiment is "successful" whatever that might mean, you propose breeding the results. Either intentionally or inadvertently.

I suppose you are not in the least bit uncomfortable about interpreting your poem as presuming to speak for the feeling and thoughts of an animal. Of course, not over 40 years ago one could easily find so-called scientific literature that said pretty much the same things about African-Americans. I suppose killing and destroying becomes much easier when a lack of feeling and emotion is attributed to the object of your experiments. Tragic that we could not ask your pet deer how it viewed the loss of your companionship in the final moments of its life.

Less I appear to be unduely harsh in what I have said, I know it is apparent to you that the postings from the breeders favor your "experiment", while the rescuers and rehabbers oppose. You are certainly due credit for attempting to elicit opinions rather than sneaking off and doing it anyway. You are certainly due credit for your continual representations that you intend no harm and will not intentionally harm the birds. Let me leave you with the thought that there is a reason we do not allow eugenics with humans; in the long run it does immense harm that is never worth the price of the gains, such as they are in the short run.


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## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

If you take a look at history alot of bad things and a lot of good things can come out of curiosity. But one thing is fact. A bunch of seasoned experienced pigeon trainers told you not to, they already know the outcome. just listen to the experts I bet you that they have done this a lot longer than you have. 

P.S curiosity killed the cat.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Chimpanzees, elephants and other animals do feel pain. They mourn when their kids die. Don't you watch Discovery Channel?

For your experiment I believe it is not necessary. Other people probably have done it. They raised ferals and just like Pegasus experienced, ferals (not escaped homers) do not have as good homing ability as a real homer.

Those ferals may be hardier though because they are exposed to the outside without treatment from us. Unlike homers we keep, where we give them antiobiotics, etc,. we won't know whether our homers are really hardier. Those ferals who are stronger probably will survive more and just like Darwin says those with genetic traits that favor them will have a chance to have descendants. That is evolution.

As a biology graduate,( and I don't know your background), one of the first thing you are going to do before starting an experiment is to gather other data. Basically you are trying to find out whether someone already did the experiment. If so, then you maybe wasting your time redoing the experiment unless you want to verify the experiment itself. In published scientific journals, we redo the experiment to verify the claims. If the findings turn out correct, then you end up with a good reputation. When we redo the experiment and the results don't much the findings, then someone will end up in trouble and your reputation will suffer for a long time.

There are other alternative besides getting feral eggs. As George said, just get some ferals, perhaps from wild rescue guys, then do your experiment. In other words you experiment just want to know about homing ability and hardiness so you are not forced to get eggs.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Thank you sir for the "have a nice day". It is obvious that I can not fully comprehend what you are trying to say, because now I am more confused than before.

P.S. I speak Chinese also, but English is my first language. I am sure that I do as bad or worse with my Chinese, as you do with english. I am not putting you down. I am just saying that I do not understand what your point is. Pigeons can and do get taken right out of the air, by hawks, when in races and when in training. They also can be lost due to bad weather, telephone wires, or other hazards. It happens. Ever hear of a "smash" race? Not all pigeons that never come home, have bad homing instincts. Bad things sometimes happen to good pigeons.

Again, have a great day.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Wow. So much to respond to. Let me simply state again, that at no time will any animal under my control or care, be intentionally harmed. Period.

Yes, I do know that animals suffer pain (duh), and that elephants, dogs and the like, suffer emotional distress from being seperated from their family members, be it another elephant or a dogs master. However, we are talking pigeons here, and we are talking about pigeon eggs to be exact. Many pigeon eggs do not hatch and many pigeon offspring die accidently or by murder. The parent birds do not suffer the loss. They are not that high of a species. Can I know this for sure? No. Can I assume it from everything there is in science and literature? Yes. Is a certain amount of it accepted in our sport/s? Yes.

As I stated, I do not want to keep prisoners and even if I did, I could not race their offspring and keep the parents and the offspring together, so it would still be taking the offspring from the parents (duh again). What is the difference between taking their eggs or taking their children?

I appreciate the responses, but I am a little (not a lot) surprised. I knew that there were liberals "out there" that think one should not even mow the lawn because the grass is "a living thing and suffers" when cut. But still, the responses have surprised me. I did not think that keeping in line with what I have put forth, would bring such responses. I truly thought I would get some that stated "been there and done that, and it didn't work out so good", or even "you will bring disease to your lofts", or maybe even "just make sure that you do not put eggs that are ready to hatch, under birds that just laid two days ago".

I do not expect ferals raised and trained with my birds to race, to do well at all. But, I don't know, and I want to know. If you have not done it, then how do you know?

P.S. Actually Gregor Mendel is known as the father of experiments such as I have proposed. He actually proved that he could make things like beans or cabbage, much better, with experiments and manipulation. He did not prove it a bad thing, but proved it a good thing to interveen in those processes. He cut and grafted plants (OMG, he "cut" them?), and made different plants and better plants. I am not familiar with his experiments with animals, but will look it up. I know that Pavlov did animal experiments with animals, but mostly through teaching and training of them.

Sort of like what I am going to do, if all goes well. I will find out if feral pigeons can hold their own in homing ability and speed. And then I will know and won't have to wonder, and won't have to ask again. I will be able to answer the next guys questions as to whether it will work, and what the pros and cons were.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

So basically you want to do an experiment that others probably have done and knew the results just to satisfy your curiosity. This sound like self-gratifying experiment or a verification of the previous studies.

You don't need to tell me about Mendel. I graduated with Biology degree and they teach you those the first year in college. They also teach you about Pavlov in Psychology courses. And at the end of your courses, you will end up experiment with DNA. If you get lucky you can end up studying pathogenic organism that can kill you. They don't teach, however, being tactful. Your parents probably should have taught you that. Some of your statements seem to be condescending. It is perhaps the manner that you write that riles people up.

Going back to you experiment, there is one thing that you possibly didn't consider. How do you know that the feral that you have is not an escaped homer or for that matter a cross between wild type and homer? If I were you, then I would collect eggs perhaps from Europe where those wild type pigeons still live among cliffs. But that would be too expensive. I am obviously viewing this from a real scientific experiment because I am curious myself. How far can a feral (wild type) range? How about this experiment? Let us gather those wild pigeons you are talking about, mark/tag them where you got them (location), bring them somewhere (mark the distance) and release them. Count how many that returns from their original place. Do it again by going farther until no pigeons return. Then you will know how far they can home. You probably have to gather about 50-100 pigeons for data points so that it can be statistically valid. After this experiment, do the experiment again from a different captured samples. The more data the better. This will take a lot of time and effort, but it is very serious and won't be called self-gratifying experiment, but a real science. The problem I can think right now is what control you are going to use. 

So perhaps we can modify that experiment by bringing all collected ferals to some loft, trained them to stay there, then do the experiment as noted. Your control is a well known homers that already are homed. This experiment might work.


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## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

You probably shouldn't have even asked the first question. All you did was make people frustrated with you not listening. It seems like this whole thread was just a way to out smart someone. Since you were never going to listen to our advice in the first place you should have just done the experiment and came to us with the results. All this did was make people angry and frustrated with you not listening, All because you didn't like what people were saying.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

*Yes, also a stupid waste of time.*

What exactly are you hoping to find here? A great racer? A distance pigeon? 

First off, on the upwards of 2000 years pigeon keepers have kept pigeons refining and sharpening the homing ability in our domesticated pigeons. And the last 200 years forming and perfecting the racer that We have today. Are you planning on going out and finding such a bird on top of a gas station? If it weren't for our efforts to race and find out what are our best birds and take the heads off the rest, we'd soon be going backwards in what we've accomplished. The racing and homing abilities in our birds would be sub-par in as little as two generations. No pigeon you'll find in the city will be worth a damn thing in a flying loft. Leave the feral where they belong and where they are happy, in the city. You can race racers. Why prove whats common sense? 

Second off, Im not sure how many racers would want a feral in the shipping basket. Not me.


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## maine123 (Sep 21, 2007)

I agree with Matt D.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I also agree with Matt.
And honestly. I don't see this thread going in a very good direction if it keeps up. Someone's gonna get mad, and people aren't gonna be happy. Bottom line is, CF you've given your views on things, and we've given ours, and in the end the decision is up to you.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

RodSD: Obviously you did not read all I have already written in this thread. I already addressed the question that perhaps any ferals I deal with, might have homing pigeon in their heritage, or even be lost ones themselves.

What does this mean, from your posting? I don't understand you college guys and guys.

"They don't teach, however, being tactful. Your parents probably should have taught you that." Did you have English classes along with those biology classes?

I wasn't trying to teach you about Mendel. You were trying to teach me about him and I responded with what I remember from high school concerning him. Obviously you know more about him that I do (condescending me again). Even though you mis-stated his work.

Also, what does this mean? 

"So basically you want to do an experiment that others probably have done and knew the results just to satisfy your curiosity. This sound like self-gratifying experiment or a verification of the previous studies."

Did someone, somewhere, report that they have already tried this experiment? Is a self-gratifying experiment an immoral thing? An illegal thing? Is satisfying ones own curiosity evil, if no one or thing is harmed in the process? Didn't they provide you in biology class, with small living things that they killed, so you could study and disect them?

Unbelieveable.

Know what peoples. Forget I asked. I won't ask again. I will just figure out what I need or want to know, through trial and error. I will not post any results of my pending experiment on here, so as not to upset anyone who thinks that pigeons mourn for the loss of their babies they raised back in 2007, that were sold by that bad loft manager. Sold into slavery to those other bad loft managers.

Geeesh.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> RodSD: Obviously you did not read all I have already written in this thread. I already addressed the question that perhaps any ferals I deal with, might have homing pigeon in their heritage, or even be lost ones themselves.
> 
> What does this mean, from your posting? I don't understand you college guys and guys.
> 
> ...


Not too sure attacking people personally is the most mature thing to do. To point out their factual mistakes is one thing, but to rub their nose in it is another. We all make mistakes, one of yours was coming here looking for approval from us for something you yourself knew wasn't right.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Matt: I have read some of your postings before and you have a good head on your shoulders. However, I never said that I was going to put birds in club baskets. I plan on racing them against my own birds in training sessions. I also made it clear that I have no intention to interbreed ferals with my or anyone else's racers. I said just the opposite.

Because I have not written down each and every thought I have on this subject (which could take up a lot of time), people here are jumping to conclusions and not understanding what I have written. "They" are filling in with things that I have not stated nor implied.

Re-read all I have written and try to understand, ...............or not.

If ya'll can not provide something substantial to this discussion, then go to another thread please. Is it possible that "we" are having this internet fight over feral pigeon eggs being placed under racers in my own loft, to satisfy my own curiosity, AND THAT IS IT?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Actually Matt. I do not know that I am wrong. I actually know that I am right and you are wrong. But in the spirit of the holiday season, I forgive your mis-understanding of what I have written and proposed.

How does that sit with you?


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

If I have misunderstood, I'll be the first one to listen to what you have to say. I don't enjoy being wrong. I read the whole thread before I hit that reply button. If I have misunderstood what you have tried to say, I'll be the first to recognize that and apologize. If you will take the time to correct my thinking, I will be sure to read it and try my best to understand. I have nothing against you personally or otherwise. I don't know you and I will not be one to point fingers. I practice things that You would shake your finger at. Im not perfect but none of us are. I just think you may have been emotionally and mentally invested in this idea and when we told you our opinions, you became very defensive of your positions. This was not MY intention. I apologize if I offended you. I would enjoy to discuss this further but not if we are going to get aggressive. If that will be the case, I wan't nothing to do with this discussion; I have better things to do.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*OK .. Everybody Back Up A Step Or Two Please ..*

It's been interesting and educational, but it's now becoming confrontational. Let's all chill out a bit in this thread, please. As long as you can all play "nice" I'll let it keep going, but if things go south here, I'll shut it down. 

Conditionfreak .. where are you located? If you don't care to post that info here, please PM me. 

Terry


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey ConditionFreak,

I think you are wrong in saying I haven't read all of these posts. I don't respond to any thread unless I read everything. So your assumption is wrong already. I was trying to be astute in your definition of ferals. In doing experiment, you have to be as detailed as possible. What if perhaps you are trying to find out whether ferals can home as good as homers and end up realizing that you are comparing actually homers(your ferals) to homers? Then your findings will be instantly invalid. I am defining ferals as those wild type pigeons that have not mix-in with homer gene.

Your writings I find tactless. That is what I wrote. Basically you are confrontational. They teach that in Speech class basically identifying types of arguments. I did poor in English because it is my third language.

I honestly don't remember mentioning Mendel in my post. Perhaps you are the one that haven't read the whole posts.

I said it is self-gratifying experiment because 4 eggs is not enough data for a real scientific experiment. Basically it would be an experiment that you may call self-curiosity experiment. I probably have used the wrong word using self-gratifying so I apologize.

Pegasus already did his own little experiment and has his own little results. I've also read somewhere, I can't find the info right now, that ferals do have homing ability because they evolved to find food somewhere and go back home. Now the racing homer is a human breed in such a way exceeding now those feral homing ability. Would you actually believe that a feral bird will search for food at 500 miles?

Yes, biology classes will let you dissect animals. It is now very strict to kill animals for experiments. Basically the experiment intended must not be trivial. It must be very important. There are a lot of rules right now. Killing those animals also must be within protocol. We kill rats, for example, instantly/ humanely. The knowledge gained is not for idle curiosity, but something that everyone can benefit. I've spent most of the time experimenting with bacteria because I like DNA studies better.

I have no beef with you. I, myself, am curious how far can a feral home.


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## demi (May 21, 2008)

*?*

How can you campare vegetables with animals that have brains?

This thread has been a very interesting reading although there were some places, the meaning of which I didn't undersand well. Maybe becasue English is my second language also.

If we felt guilty cutting leaves off some plants or taking seeds out of other fruits or vegetables, we don't have much else to eat, do we?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*I Think This One Has Been Beaten To Death ..*

Thread closed .. you all can try again another day, but it's time to let this one go.

Terry


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