# found racing pigeon



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

My birds brought home a racer today while out on their daily fly. It's in the loft eating. the band is AU2005 ARPU22245 and the band is bright blue. Above this band is a lime green thin band and on his left leg is a thick maroon band with 8P5 on it. I tried the Am. Pigeon racing website and the band does not register. Any other ideas? It's a beauitful bird-- light grey with dark grey bars and a greenish neck. What to do?
Catherine 

ps--I'll post this on the racing section, too


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

My white homers brought home a racing pigeon today. the band is a bright blue with the numbers--AU2005 ARPU22245 and there is a lime gree thin band above it. The left leg has a thick plastic maroon band with the number 8P5. It's a light grey with dark grey bars and a greenish neck--absoutely beauitful. It hung around the loft and now is in and eating and drinking--doesn't look distressed at all.
I looked on the ARPU website and the band does not register. Any ideas as to what to do now?
Catherine
PS-- I live in Madison (south central) Wisconsin


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you can email "[email protected]" and talk to ?Karen? She can find out anything about AU pigeons that can be found. I think.

pidgey


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Try calling the ARPU...

ARPU
PO. Box 18465
Oklahoma City, OK, 73154-0465
*Phone 405 848-5801*

Hopefully, they'll be able to tell you who they sold that band to as I believe the 'ARPU' protion of the band number you posted indicates its not a club bad, as in, there would be a club code there, but isn't... my birds are banded with such bands as I'm not part of a club.

See also, www.arpu.org or www.pigeon.org

Also, see also... http://www.pigeon.org/lostbirdinfo.htm

As you say the bird is "in the loft", sounds like you're "up" on pigeons, but here's some more helpful info that others coming across this thread may find useful... http://www.pigeon.org/carelostbird.htm


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I have emailed the ARPU and the FBI and yahoo 911 and called the ARPU --but had to leave a message. So we'll see what happens. 
WAIT--the ARPU just called back and I got the name of the owner--he's i Illionis.
Thanks everyone!


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

bartuska said:


> I have emailed the ARPU and the FBI and yahoo 911 and called the ARPU --but had to leave a message. So we'll see what happens.
> WAIT--the ARPU just called back and I got the name of the owner--he's i Illionis.
> Thanks everyone!


Let us know how it turns out. The owner may have sold the bird to someone else that is actually closer to you.


----------



## sportsman (Apr 1, 2005)

Here is a direct link to the AU pigeon band listings, type in ARPU in the search bar. It is just a step further than the third link from ZIGZAG.
http://www.pigeon.org/bandlistings.php


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

sportsman said:


> Here is a direct link to the AU pigeon band listings, type in ARPU in the search bar. It is just a step further than the third link from ZIGZAG.
> http://www.pigeon.org/bandlistings.php


Good link, but since the band on the bird in question here is:

AU2005 *ARPU*22245

The *ARPU*... non-club... band, just an ARPU member band, being the operative part, searching on that page won't get you the owner's name. bartuska had to call the AU direct to get that.


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I called the ARPU and they gave me the name of the owner who lives in Illinois--I tried to call his last night and had to leave a message. So far no return call. What do I do if he never calls back? In the future should I shoo away any racer or go out of my way to feed it, etc? This bird flew around with my flock and landed on the loft and stayed there for a few hours and then trapped in. I'd hate to ruin any race--but then again if the bird is lost....What do you racing people say about this??


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Bartuska,

The subject of "strays" is a complex one. I'm not sure if the ARPU or NPA has a "official" policy on it.

It could go several different ways...

You could shoo the stray away (toss it back out) and hope it goes home.

You could let it rest and feed for a few days and let it out to fly and maybe it will go home.

You could keep it in and continue to try to contact the owner and post things like this here, Pigeon911, etc. like you have in hopes the owner will contact you. One note on that... I've heard it said, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've heard it said that some racers will cull birds that follow another flock home and are returned to them, so you may want inquire as to this subject if / when you get in touch with the owner.

If you are never able to locate the owner... then you're in kinda a grey area. If you decide to keep the bird and care for it and give it a home, then its doubtful anyone will ever say "boo" about it. Where you might (and take this with a grain of salt too) get yourself in toruble is if you ever try to sell or race the bird or even sell off-spring from the bird and you list the bird in its off-spring's pedegree is someone may recognize this is not your bird.

Here's a couple of stories about strays that I know of...

First story... a friend of a friend of mine, who's a fancier / racer over in centarl CA, not too long ago had a stray trap in with her birds, I think after a training toss. She feed and watered the bird and decided to go the route of releasing it to give it the chance to return to its home loft and in fact, the bird must have. How did she know this? When the stray first showed up with her birds, it had is normal pigeon band on, of course. However, after she let it go the first time... it showed up again with her birds after a toss, but this time it had its band plus a chip (electronic clock) band on it two the second vist to her loft, so she knew it had been home and back to her place again. I'm not sure what happened to the bird after that.

Second story... A big time fancier / racer south of me had posted several of his "extra" Hens for sale on one of the pigeon auction sites. One of the birds in the ad he posted, he "up-front" said that it was a stray that trapped in with his birds after a race, at that time, sevarl months earlier. He went on to say that he had tried to locate the bird's owner and that the NPA couldn't match the owner to the band number on the bird. Seeing as how this guy is no novice to the sport of pigeon racing, I have to take him at his word that he made a good an honest effort to locate the bird's owner. Anyway, I bid on the bird because at the time, I was looking to add some hens to my loft. Well, "someone else" out there seeing the auction (not the bird's real owner) evidently didn't think that he should be selling the bird... and we're not talking one of the high-end auction sites here OBTW, we're talking $15-$25 + shipping is what the bird probably would have went for on this site... the guy got reported to the NPA over it. Well, NOW the NPA was somehow able to match the bird's band to the owner, gee, why didn't they look harder the first time around? Anyway, the man auctioning the bird pulled it from the auciton site and was able to finally contact the true owner. The true onwer hadn't seen the auction, had written the bird off long ago and gave (verbal) permission for this guy to sell it if he wanted to seeing as how he had been caring for it for some time. Well, to make a long story longer, since I had bid on the bird, but had then seen the auction pulled, I contacted the seller directly to see what had happened, learned what I've tried to explain here, and in the end he made a gift of the bird to me... her name is Amelia, because she flew off and got lost.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

bartuska said:


> I called the ARPU and they gave me the name of the owner who lives in Illinois--I tried to call his last night and had to leave a message. So far no return call. What do I do if he never calls back? In the future should I shoo away any racer or go out of my way to feed it, etc? This bird flew around with my flock and landed on the loft and stayed there for a few hours and then trapped in. I'd hate to ruin any race--but then again if the bird is lost....What do you racing people say about this??


Hello,

My name is Ellen and I am one of the Owner/Moderators of the 911 Pigeon Alert Group. If you do not receive a call back then you should either report that to us or go direct to the Organization and speak with Karen Clifton or Deone Roberts with the American Racing Pigeon Union at 1-800-755-2778, if the person does not return your call I know they will return the call of the American Racing Pigeon Union.

If a wayward pigeon comes to you for assistance then I would hope that if at all possible you would assist it please let it rest, feed it, water it, and then once you have decided it is healthy enough to continue on it's journey then take it a couple of miles from your home and release it, do not let this pigeon out to any type of exercise with your birds as this will cause the pigeon to home in on your loft possibly, if the bird returns to your home once again after you have released it a couple of miles away then if the owner would like to get it back then they need to arrange for a pickup, if they do not want it back then it needs to be placed for adoption either by you or us and if the owner/breeder is doing so at a inconvenients to you once again a report needs to be made to the affiliated Organization. Just so you know I am speaking as a pigeon racer as well.

Ellen


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

bartuska said:


> I called the ARPU and they gave me the name of the owner who lives in Illinois--I tried to call his last night and had to leave a message. So far no return call. What do I do if he never calls back? In the future should I shoo away any racer or go out of my way to feed it, etc? This bird flew around with my flock and landed on the loft and stayed there for a few hours and then trapped in. I'd hate to ruin any race--but then again if the bird is lost....What do you racing people say about this??


Bartuska,

I called and spoke with Judy which she is at the number that you were given to contact, Judy told me they got your number off their machine last night and her husband is tracking who bred this pigeon and they will be calling you back later this evening, she was a very nice and pleasant lady and had a lot of concern for this wayward pigeon, we discussed the pigeon possibly being able to be released if not injured and I told her that I had advised you on the release and explained to Judy that so far there was no mention of an injury to where this wayward pigeon couldn't make it's journey home. Please discuss this with Judy or her husband later this possibility. 

If I can be of further assistance to you feel free to email me or call me at [email protected] or 559-685-8322.

Ellen


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Here's a couple of stories about strays that I know of...
> 
> First story... a friend of a friend of mine, who's a fancier / racer over in centarl CA, not too long ago had a stray trap in with her birds, I think after a training toss. She feed and watered the bird and decided to go the route of releasing it to give it the chance to return to its home loft and in fact, the bird must have. How did she know this? When the stray first showed up with her birds, it had is normal pigeon band on, of course. However, after she let it go the first time... it showed up again with her birds after a toss, but this time it had its band plus a chip (electronic clock) band on it two the second vist to her loft, so she knew it had been home and back to her place again. I'm not sure what happened to the bird after that.


This bird came back a couple of times then returned home again and showed up on the race sheet and did not return for a visit again after races began.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Second story... A big time fancier / racer south of me had posted several of his "extra" Hens for sale on one of the pigeon auction sites. One of the birds in the ad he posted, he "up-front" said that it was a stray that trapped in with his birds after a race, at that time, sevarl months earlier. He went on to say that he had tried to locate the bird's owner and that the NPA couldn't match the owner to the band number on the bird. Seeing as how this guy is no novice to the sport of pigeon racing, I have to take him at his word that he made a good an honest effort to locate the bird's owner. Anyway, I bid on the bird because at the time, I was looking to add some hens to my loft. Well, "someone else" out there seeing the auction (not the bird's real owner) evidently didn't think that he should be selling the bird... and we're not talking one of the high-end auction sites here OBTW, we're talking $15-$25 + shipping is what the bird probably would have went for on this site... the guy got reported to the NPA over it. Well, NOW the NPA was somehow able to match the bird's band to the owner, gee, why didn't they look harder the first time around? Anyway, the man auctioning the bird pulled it from the auciton site and was able to finally contact the true owner. The true onwer hadn't seen the auction, had written the bird off long ago and gave (verbal) permission for this guy to sell it if he wanted to seeing as how he had been caring for it for some time. Well, to make a long story longer, since I had bid on the bird, but had then seen the auction pulled, I contacted the seller directly to see what had happened, learned what I've tried to explain here, and in the end he made a gift of the bird to me... her name is Amelia, because she flew off and got lost.


Zig,

The bottom line is if we don't have papers showing we are the owner or breeder of that bird we don't have the right to be selling it without the permission of the owner or breeder. Yes he was honest about it, but that still doesn't make it ok, there are now processes in place to hopefully keep this from happening in the future, I guess I could go both ways on this as the pigeons best interest was in mind as well, I just don't know that he should be trying to receive a profit off of someone elses bird unless he has the authority to do so, most reputable pigeon fanciers would *NEVER* put up for auction nor sell another persons bird without the authority to do so, as well as fully knowing it is a stray and that they don't actually have permission to do so, that could be a very touch situation all around.

Ellen


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I will await the call--no problem here. My children are thorougly impressed that there is a "racing" pigeon in the loft. They love to make up stories as to where it came from.
I was worried about the culling situation, too. I hope this won't be the case for this beauitful bird--I will ask and will be glad to keep it if that is the case. Will let you know what happens and again thanks for all the help.


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

relofts said:


> The bottom line is if we don't have papers showing we are the owner or breeder of that bird we don't have the right to be selling it without the permission of the owner or breeder. Yes he was honest about it, but that still doesn't make it ok, there are now processes in place to hopefully keep this from happening in the future, I guess I could go both ways on this as the pigeons best interest was in mind as well, I just don't know that he should be trying to receive a profit off of someone elses bird unless he has the authority to do so, most reputable pigeon fanciers would *NEVER* put up for auction nor sell another persons bird without the authority to do so, as well as fully knowing it is a stray and that they don't actually have permission to do so, that could be a very touch situation all around.


Ergo... why I didn't name the individual that, in the end, gave me Amelia. I still stand-by my comments that I have to take him at his word that he tired to find the bird's original owner and couldn't... at which point, I'm sure he could have just pulled the bird's head off and no one would have ever been the wiser and thus not have been critical of him, but I have to hand it to him that he decided to at least try to do right by the bird and give a chance to have a home... Aside...Regardless of the fact that the subject of culling is pretty much _forbidden_ to be spoken of around here... I'd be willing to bet that this is the fate of many strays that wind-up in someone elses loft by mistake... but I digress. 

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but just to be clear, if he had sold this bird to me, or anyone for that matter on the site in question, he would not have made such a "profit" that he would have been "rich"; and he did feed and water the bird and assume the risk that it wasn't carrying something that would make his birds sick... I know you know of some horror stories there. On the flip side, if he had been auctioning the bird on one of the high end sites where birds go for $1000+, and asking such a price, then I would agree "that's not right."

In the end, I am grateful he made a gift of the bird to me. She'll have a safe home and as best care I can provide for as long as she's alive. If such a time comes when I cannot care for my birds, I'll seek help from folks here to find them a home.

... also all, ergo, why I commented that the subject of strays is "touchy."


Ellen, you say there are "guidelines" on the subject... I'm guessing published by the ARPU or NPA? I'd be interested in seeing what is now "written down", so if you could point me (us) in the right direction, please do.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> I still stand-by my comments that I have to take him at his word that he tired to find the bird's original owner and couldn't...


Zig,

I am sure he tried, it just appeared that some information was missed in his search for the owner.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> at which point, he could have just pulled the bird's head off and no one would have ever been the wiser and thus not have been critical of him.


Zig,

While he could have done so that would make him as unethical  as some others that we are trying to educate all though he didn't so I don't suppose that is a question we must answer, I am sure if the shoe was on the other foot he wouldn't want that to happen to his personal birds either, culling of anyones birds is not a practice any pigeon fancier should start and if located and found doing so conduct charges will be brought up against the person doing so with their affiliated Organization, Also this is against Federal and State laws to cause harm to any banded pigeon, only the owner/breeder has the right to do anything to their birds, if this comment came from the person that found the bird then I feel it is only because he is upset because he was confronted on this due to some fanciers strong feelings about the selling of another fanciers pigeon. I as well as many other's get strays in frequently and I can say that these pigeons are not culled but are cared for, medicated if needed and given every opportunity to return to their owner/breeder.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> Regardless of the fact that the subject of culling is pretty much _forbidden_ to be spoken of around here... I'd be willing to bet that this is the fate of many strays that wind-up in someone elses loft by mistake.


Zig,
The reason it is unspoken is due to the fact that this is not a practice that many of us accept as there are other options, the biggest one being educating new pigeon fanciers on the quality aspect of breeding not quantity and caring for your pigeons, you get into problems if you are new and breed without the knowledge needed to breed the quality aspects of the pigeon by not have the experience you breed out the qualities needed for a homing pigeon to continue to have it's ability to home, you have then developed a pigeon that will not be able to home it's way back to it's loft, this doesn't always mean it will be in your first round of youngsters but over time you will loose the strengths needed to home as well as the structure qualities the pigeon needs to fly distances. As far as your comment on "willing to bet that this is the fate of many strays that wind-up in someone elses loft by mistake" I must totally disagree with you, more times then not it is considered a trophy that you could get someone elses bird in and this meant that your birds had the drag, and then getting to call the owner to boast that their pigeon trapped into the loft is yet another ego booster to some, also it is a way to get to know yet another person that enjoys the same sport as you do and talk pigeons, and those talks lead to wonderful friendships.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> Sorry to beat a dead horse, but just to be clear, if he had sold this bird to me, or anyone for that matter on the site in question, he would not have made such a "profit" that he would have been "rich"; and he did feed and water the bird and assume the risk that it wasn't carrying something that would make his birds sick...


Zig,

This is a risk we all take when racing our pigeons we are exposing them to illnesses, this is why we do preventative treatment, as far as feeding the stray bird that is just good conduct on behalf of the fellow pigeon fancier, we all do it and don't bat a eye at it to assist a fellow pigeon fanciers pigeons. Bottom line is it is the the point of the matter it was not legally his to sell the bird, back in the day flyers in New York used to hold each other's birds ransom if they could get them trapped in and it was a game, this game has since ended years ago, not to say there may be still a few in different areas of pigeons that still do this, but as I said it is only for fun they do that.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> I know you know of some horror stories there. On the flip side, if he had been auctioning the bird on one of the high end sites where birds go for $1000+, then I would agree "that's not right." In the end, I am grateful he made a gift of the bird to me.


As I said it doesn't matter where he tried to sell the pigeon he didn't have the right to sell it without the authority of the breeder or by registering with the affiliated national organization as the owner due to circumstances, he could have avoided this issue had he taken the proper steps, the dollar amount has nothing to do with this. I am also grateful that he turned her over to you and we know that she has a good home.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> Ellen, you say there are "guidelines" on the subject... I'm guessing published by the ARPU or NPA? I'd be interested in seeing what is now "written down", so if you could point me (us) in the right direction, please do.


Zig,
What I said is there are now processes in place to hopefully keep this from happening in the future, meaning the 911 Pigeon Alert Group as we log all birds and then when all options are exhausted the birds are then turned over to the adoptee and a copy of this adoption is transferred to the National Organization that the bird Originated from, should there be questions at a later time the adoptee will have records both with us and the National Organization.

Ellen


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

On the specifics of the topic of how I came by my bird Amelia, I am not going to argue with you Ellen, but I also am not going to be too shy to say I disagree with you; circumstnaces unfolded which found this bird "abandoned" by its original owner to the point, I believe after reasonable attempt was made, where finding its original home were nil... however, through a one in a million further set of circumstnaces the original owner materilzed and in the end said they no longer wanted the bird and its benefactor could do with it as he wanted. I still believe there was no intentional deception or gross lack of pigeon ethics... I also believe, some of the specific things just went differnt to your opinion, which are good, but which are also strong.


Sure, giving _any_ stray some food, water and rest and then tossing it a mile or two from the loft it mistakenly trapped into, thus, giving it a chance to go to its correct home is a good suggestion that you explained better then I did, but it certainly is not the only solution.


What I've learned from this scenario and further from this discussion here, is that if a stray ever comes my way... I certainly would give it feed & shelter... I certainly would make all attempts to locate its owner via its band number, using resources like Pigeon911, the ARPU, NPA, etc. and return it to him or her and/or go with Ellen's suggestion of taking it on a toss by itself away from my loft after it had a chance to eat & rest... but if I decided not to toss it and failed to find is owner... now having been more "enlightened"... I'd either then decided to keep the bird myself and give it a home (and just not be vocal about it being a stray anymore)... or send it on its way to some rescuer to do with it as they would do; would refuse any compensation for monies I spent as it wouldn't be worth the flak I could potentially suffer.


Kinda makes me wonder too why I got a third bird thrown in for "free" once upon a time when having bought two others... didn't know it until I opened the shipping box and found the two birds I had purchased... recognized them from their photos, and found the third "free-bee"... hmm, wonder if it was a stray they had troubles with....

... if one follows this thread and does an in-depth search on strays just here on pigeons.com, when stacking up all the arguements and opinions of all the personalities, you can be left with a bird that no matter what you do with it, someone will say "that's not what you should have done", but such is life  ... pray you find the owner & _the owner wants the bird back_.


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

The secretary of the club where my found racer is from called and I am going to release the bird tomorrow. The loft is approx. 100 miles south of here. The bird was let go in Missouri and over shot its home by 100 miles north for some reason. He was glad I found it and doesn't think it should have a problem getting home. I fed him well tonight and they all "went to bed" early and I'll feed him breakfast. I gave him my email so he'll write when the bird returns. Of course, I'll be worrying until then.--I could never do pigeon races! Tomorrow looks good as far as weather and no sun spots. Let's all hope for the best for this guy.


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Bartuska, thanks for the update. I too hope the bird finds its way home. If you do get news that it found its way home, please let us know and good job on taking care of this lost bird.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Bartuska,

Thanks for the update, as long as this pigeon is not hurt and has rested I am sure he will make it home just fine, I am glad that you setup with the owner to call you once it arrives. Pigeon racing is something we humans call it, but in reallity pigeons home of their own ability back to where they know as home, should this little one return to your home after you have release it, please contact the owner again and explain that it appears to like your home and ask if he is willing to release it into your custody as you and your family are quite fond of it, s/he may be willing to do so under those circumstances.

Please keep us posted.

Ellen


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> On the specifics of the topic of how I came by my bird Amelia, I am not going to argue with you Ellen, but I also am not going to be too shy to say I disagree with you; circumstnaces unfolded which found this bird "abandoned" by its original owner to the point, I believe after reasonable attempt was made, where finding its original home were nil... however, through a one in a million further set of circumstnaces the original owner materilzed and in the end said they no longer wanted the bird and its benefactor could do with it as he wanted. I still believe there was no intentional deception or gross lack of pigeon ethics... I also believe, some of the specific things just went differnt to your opinion, which are good, but which are also strong.


Tim,

I would say the use of "abandoned" is far from reality, you yourself have lost birds off your loft as well as myself and many other's, this doesn't mean that we "abandoned" them, it merely means that we lost them, if they are found then that is when comes the decission to take the bird back. In your circumstance with Amelia if the fancier called me and told me what happened I would probably of turned over the pigeon to him myself, not because I didn't want it but to try if nothing more then to try and make things easier for the fancier. I never stated that I felt there was an "intentional deception or gross lack of pigeon ethics" on the fanciers part, only that there were other options he could of taken prior to selling it on an open auction. Yes you are correct that things in the transaction did not go in a way I would think was handled quite like they could have been, for instance I wouldn't sell a bird that wasn't mine no matter what, and I would have contacted the National Organization as he did, I would have noted back to the Organization that I would be taking possesion of the bird since they were unable to locate the legal Owner/Breeder.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> but if I decided not to toss it and failed to find is owner... now having been more "enlightened"... I'd either then decided to keep the bird myself and give it a home (and just not be vocal about it being a stray anymore)... or send it on its way to some rescuer to do with it as they would do; would refuse any compensation for monies I spent as it wouldn't be worth the flak I could potentially suffer..


Tim,
If you went through regular protocal and the owner/breeder was not located through out the National Organization then by all means you can opt to adopt it, I suggest you send a letter as well to the affiliated National Organization so you know they have received notification. Now if you are saying that you would take a stray and decide to keep it without notifying anyone on this then you are wrong to do so, as well as be in violation of Federal and State laws and if someone should choose to they could bring a court order and remove this pigeon from your custody should someone find out that you have it with consent of the owner, if you would like I can refer you to someone here locally that can explain the process to you as he has done it in some cases here in California, you can also contact the American Racing Pigeon Union as you are a member and speak with the legal advisor and they will also explain this to you, not that I think you are going to do such a thing. Now as far as the rescue facilities, you seem to have a misconception of rescue facilities they are not out to take peoples pigeons, many of them actually return them when the owners want them back. As far as compensation for monies spent, I can tell you that I spend plenty treating birds that come through me that don't belong to me, as well as giving new flyers medications, vitamins, and such when they need it, I don't ask for compensation for what I do, only the persons attention to understand that these are items they will need if they want to care for pigeons, strays that come through here most fanciers never know that the medication that I paid $50 for to get 60 grams was given to their pigeon, I don't see the need to make them feel like they owe me anything for the care, I only hope they would do the same for mine should it stray to their loft.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> Kinda makes me wonder too why I got a third bird thrown in for "free" once upon a time when having bought two others... didn't know it until I opened the shipping box and found the two birds I had purchased... recognized them from their photos, and found the third "free-bee"... hmm, wonder if it was a stray they had troubles with.....


Maybe you should ask the person you received them from, I would think that if you paid for some they gave you a pedigree, if they sent a third then hopefully they sent you a pedigree on the third one as well, otherwise you have no way to prove that you legally own the pigeon. I have pedigrees on most every bird out here that is not banded with my bands, the other's are all rescue turned over to me by the county or I have contacted the owners on and they have relinquished them to my care to place with new flyers.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> ... if one follows this thread and does an in-depth search on strays just here on pigeons.com, when stacking up all the arguements and opinions of all the personalities, you can be left with a bird that no matter what you do with it, someone will say "that's not what you should have done", but such is life  ... pray you find the owner & _the owner wants the bird back_.


Yep we can agree there, that is life, we can not always agree, what we can agree on is that we are going to disagree on some subjects such as this. 

You are still very new to Homing Pigeons and should you ever get the opportunity and decide to visit an actual Racing Pigeon Club and be involved with it you will be surprised at how caring most pigeon fanciers really are about their birds, their fellow pigeon fanciers, not all but as I say most, being in the actual sport of pigeon racing and involved with the many flyers and understanding the importance of some getting their bird back is much more different then what you may think.

Respectfully written,

Ellen


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*"Lost" or "Stray" Racers.*

Hello Folks,

Now here is my little two cents on reading these various posts.

During this time of year, there are many confused YB's out there finding their way home. In Europe, the issue is quite clear, a "stray" or "lost" racer, has not had legal ownership transferred to another person, simply because the bird has entered your loft.

In the US, perhaps it is a sign of the morals of today, or lack there of, but there are those who consider, "Finders Keepers". Sort of reminds me of when I "found" lost things as a child. My Mother understood the issues, whatever was "found" belonged to someone else, and it needed to be returned.

Butter it up, and sugar coat it, if you will, but any action, such as attempting to sell or keeping the bird, is stealing. 

A few days ago, a bird returned from a race, with another colored band on it's leg. The bird had been in someone elses care. Because the YB race, was from 2003 !!!  So at about six months of age, this bird would have entered someone's loft, and then spent the next two years in another loft. Somehow he escaped, and came home.

I wish I would have seen someone trying to sell this bird at some auction. I would personally have spent thousands, just to make that person's life miserable for awhile. The bird was not lost, at that point, it was stolen ! 

Ellen is correct, give the bird some feed and water, and send it on it's way.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You will find sometimes A bird comes to your loft or home That is lost tierd and confused. If after the bird rests is turned loose and still stays It is more or less truely lost to its key loft. A person should try to loctate the loft owner thru the club contact person.. NOW days its much easyer to do because most people have a computer And internet. BUT often If the bird trapped the owner does not want it back. And if they do. They need to make arrangements to retrieve the bird. I would safely say. Thousands of birds are lost every year in training and racing right here in America. Some wonder 100 s of miles off course Being lost forever. Some find a loft or home That takes them in. The person finds the owner and is told to keep the bird. Or the owner picks it up. I have had birds come back that was lost and then show up the next race season. I new they was at someones loft. Then trained out and finally figeuerd out how to get back home. Now if the person would have contacted me I would have let them have the bird. But often a bird that comes home late .If raced agin will get lost agin. Because it is not up to the rigid race test. And to sometimes its been a good racer then it ran into problems And was lost for awhile. A bird in the sky IS it really owned. it was set free. It came back or was lost. I would rather see the bird found a home And like to have known what happened to it By being contacted But if the person that had it then wanted the bird I would gladly let them have it. NOW i have had 9 birds return in the past 2 weeks that I gave away over a yewar and a half ago. Are they mine. Well they came back. AND the person has not contacted me to get them back. I say they are mine agin. I plan to let my brother inlaw have them . Is that right. I say yes. As if the person that had them tryed to loft train them Or lost them they was the one that needed to contact me if they cared about the birds. Way I figure those birds After being gone that long Were decent birds to come back. And the person made the mistake of looseing them.


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

bartuska said:


> .......In the future should I shoo away any racer or go out of my way to feed it, etc? This bird flew around with my flock and landed on the loft and stayed there for a few hours and then trapped in. I'd hate to ruin any race--but then again if the bird is lost....What do you racing people say about this??



You make a really good point there.... "ruin any race".

If the bird has followed yours and trapped in, it likely isn't going to win the race... lol. HOWEVER..... if the owner is waiting to get even ONE bird home to stay "in the average" - he might really appreciate it if you sent the bird on its way asap...  Then again, with some of the weird returns clubs have been seeing this year, that bird could still be on the race sheet...  

If you get a stray on a Saturday, chances are, it's still in a race, and after giving it a small amount of food and drink, if you can get it to leave, great. (or even just shoo it off - it might be just momentarily confused, because it was trying to follow your birds -- and might just head on home right away if you 'shoo' it)

One glaring thing stood out here for me... You let the bird in the loft to eat/drink with your birds. eeeeekkk!  

We learned by horrid experience -- NEVER let a stray stay in the loft with your birds. You have no idea how well the owner might be keeping his birds - if he vaccinates for disease (PMV especially), if he just vaccinated for Pox (a live vaccine - which means the bird actually has a weakened 'case' of the disease, and can spread it like wildfire to unvaccinated birds...), etc.

We have a special section for keeping strays. Usually, they don't even get into the loft - we net them off the landing board as soon as we seen them there. Lost most of our YB's one year, because of a 'stray'. While we try and get any strays back to their owners -- they are not welcome to live in with our birds, for even a few minutes....


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

Yeah, I thought of that, too late, I might add. I appreciate the advice--and will definitely heed it now (infact, we are in the process of building a new loft and will have an area to put sick or strays)
I set the bird free about 2 miles from home, and then went 10 miles north to toss my flock. When I got home, before my flock, the racer was already back. Now all my birds are in except one--and he and the racer are flying like crazy all over the back 40. 
I'll call the owner again to see what to do. Maybe i'll have to drive further away to let him go.
If he stays tonight I will put him in a large cage I have--where he will be protected, yet not with the other birds. This bird looks great-but you never know.


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Ellen,

You closed your last post that was clearly directed at me by saying "respectfully written"; it doesn't feel that way, but I’ll take your word for it.

However, I think I clearly stated some things that I’ll try to clarify here, that you chose to ignore, missed or simply misunderstood, not sure which, in your preceding lecture:

1) The bird I call Amelia that was a "stray" *was* abandoned by _circumstance_. The operative word being circumstance, as in, the bird got lost and wound-up in someone else’s loft. That person _tried_ to locate the bird's owner, but failed. At that point, the bird is abandoned in the figurative sense, by circumstance, not in the literal sense. Given that I tried to explain what happened to this bird and how it came my way more then once, I think it is understandable that I use that word.

2) Certainly the fancier trying to sell Amelia was a mistake. He goofed, he admitted that to me. At least he was up-front and said the bird was a stray that he tried but failed to locate its owner when he first posted it on the auction. This did lead to the bird's owner finally being located who told him he could do with the bird as he wanted and in the end he gave the bird to me. I took the man at his word that he had originally made an honest effort to first locate the bird's owner. I also took him at his word that when things changed and he did locate the bird's true owner, quite some time after it had gone missing, that he had permission from the true owner to do with as he wanted. I’ve tried to explain that more then once, that in the end the right things were done. Ergo, I believe that the mistake made in the middle was not so gross as to not be excusable since he had accurately and up-front described the bird as a stray and, also, in the end never did receive any money for it. That is my opinion and just that. Your opinion differs, that’s okay, but it is still just that, nothing more. The subtle difference I think you’re missing is I agree that if any pigeon fancier tried to sell a stray as one of their own birds and got caught doing so, that would be wrong. That’s not what happened here.

3) I believe I clearly said that if I ever had a stray trap into my loft I would make attempt to locate its true owner using several resources to do so. Although I did say that if I failed to find a stray’s owner I may decide to adopt it myself, you were mistaken to speculate that I may, or infer that said, that I would just keep a stray that came my way as well as making your following comments regarding my violation of sate and federal laws false.


Tim


----------



## color guy (Sep 24, 2005)

*innocent vs. theft...*



ZigZagMarquis said:


> ...if he had sold this bird to me, or anyone for that matter on the site in question, he would not have made such a "profit" that he would have been "rich"... On the flip side, if he had been auctioning the bird on one of the high end sites where birds go for $1000+, and asking such a price, then I would agree "that's not right."


So if a person steals a candy bar worth $1 it's not stealing, but if that same person steals a car they go to jail? The word "stealing" is a verb, meaning "to take and carry away without right or permission". I don't see there being a price or value as part of the definition.

Taking what is not yours is stealing. Keeping what is not yours is also against the law, even if you "found" it. If you find a bag of money in an alley, you may not know it came from a bank robbery, but it still is not yours. Legally found items must be turned in to the appropriate authority for a specified period waiting for the owner to claim it. Often a "public" notice must also be posted seeking the owner.

If after some waiting period, the owner is not found, then the convening authority can place the found item with someone else, perhaps even the finder. But the convening authority could also investigate the finder, as there have been times when someone "found" something by stealing it in the first place (ala insurance fraud of valuable artwork, for example).

The bottom line is, if it isn't legally yours, turn it in.

In the case of lost pigeons, the convening authority is both government law enforcement, and the banding National Organization (and their agents). In the case of the 911 Pigeon Alert group, they are authorized agents for lost pigeons... both for finding the owners, and when needed, for offering birds out for adoption.



ZigZagMarquis said:


> Ellen, you say there are "guidelines" on the subject... I'm guessing published by the ARPU or NPA?


A number of the National pigeon organizations have policies in place governing their members, and governing those persons who band birds with their (the National organizations) bands. The AU and the IF are two such organizations, there are more.

Their policies govern member conduct and behaviour for example. Including requiring their members to retrieve (or offer for adoption) birds that are lost or strayed. It also requires those same members to report and return any found birds that belong to others, and to not keep them.

Failing to report a found bird, and keeping it while remaining quiet about it, also qualifies as stealing. Any AU or If member found to have stolen a bird belonging to another could be banned for life.

If you are uncertain of the National Organizatios policies Tim, please ask them to forward you a copy of their Bylaws and Policies.


----------



## color guy (Sep 24, 2005)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> 1) The bird I call Amelia ... was abandoned by circumstance. The operative word being circumstance, as in, the bird got lost and wound-up in someone else’s loft. That person tried to locate the bird's owner, but failed. At that point, the bird is abandoned in the figurative sense, by circumstance.
> 
> Tim


 Sorry Tim, Play any word game you want... but learn what words mean if you are trying to use them as weapons...

The word abandon is a verb (active word, for non English majors) See below...

*Abandon \e-ban-den\ vb [fr. surrender] : to give up completely :*

In order for a bird to be "abandoned", the original owner would have to DO something active. He would have had to KNOW the bird was found, and then DONE something active to give up the bird. The lack of action is not abandonment, sorry.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I think to much focas on is the bird stolen if it goes to anothers loft. Is beimg over reacted on. HOW many birds are lost each and every race season. How many would die hang out with the ferals. Ect Then how many find a loft. And the person tries to contact the owner And the owner says if it trapped into your loft I do not wnat it back OR If it comes back now I will kill it. Alot of racing people will not take abird back that trapped else where. And the average person that does not deal in pigeons much May never locate the owner. So with that I say if a bird comes to your loft and stays. First it was free to leave any time. second If you can not find the owner it is yours until someone can say its not. And anytime a bird is in the sky. It is really no longer owned if it does not go home. And just the few that would retrive a lost bird Is that not many will. And often if turned loose its still lost Never make it home. Though some will Many stay lost. And Thats real. If I recieved a dollar for every lost bird each year just here in america I would thousands of dollars every year. So If a person fails to find a owner That person should have the right to keep the said bird> now Lets look at say stray cows A cow comes to your property You board put out notice that you have found it. 3 months later a person comes along that says its thers cow. You have the right to cahrge a fee for the care it recieved. While you took care of it.Now The same right goes to a person that had a lost bird come to there home. Most would not do this. But see what I mean. Say you did say ok. Now I want 3. dollars a day care for the bird And its been here for 90 days. You owe me 270 dollars. Its just much easyer to See the bird as a lost pigeon. Care for it. And try to find the owner for a time. And then if no owner stepped up. Call it yours go on from there until Maybe some day someone comes forward. No whine on its stolen because you kept it. Or gave it away. telling that person It came to your loft would not leave and you could not find the owner. That sounds fare to me. The bird is alive perhaps because some one cared a little.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well Re Lee,

Now how really hard is it to locate the owner of an AU band ? Just cause some nit wit, makes a half hearted "attempt", whatever that means, does not transfer ownership of the bird. 

You got some people, who just can't, or won't, understand, that livestock wondering onto your property, does not give you ownership. 

How hard is it, to pick up the phone, call the AU office and say I got a bird with band #, whose is it ? Any self respecting racing fancier, would not be keeping another person's bird, and then claiming ignorance of how to contact the rightful owner.

Oh gee, I "found" this car, and didn't know who the owner was, so I kept it, and drove it around for a few months.  I guess if the owner tracks me down, I will give it back to them, but then I want money for all the gas I had to feed it.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This is a very interesting and informative thread.

Having now done many hundreds of AU, IF, NPA, and assorted other bands on the 911 Pigeon Alert site, I have to tell you that while the "rules" are pretty clear cut, the results aren't.

You folks who breed, fly, and show birds need to be responsible for keeping good records and also be responsible for making every reasonable effort to retrieve a bird of yours that is found and unable to get home on its own. Sadly, there are still some fanciers who just don't care and won't make any effort and some who won't even return a phone call. When a member of the public who is trying to do the right thing and return a bird to the rightful owner gets a less than helpful response from the owner, it hurts your entire sport. Fortunately, most in the major organizations are good record keepers and are very responsible towards their birds.

One of the very most frustrating things I find in tracing bands on the 911 site are those that are sold by the major organizations to distributors and major breeders .. the organization knows who purchased the band BUT the distributors and breeders have a record of who purchased the band in perhaps half the cases .. the distributors do a slightly better job of record keeping than the breeders who give their birds away or sell them at swap meets. We even once traced a fellow who is a respected master breeder of a show type of bird who decided it was better to release his culls into the wild than kill them .. perhaps that is/was a true assessment on his behalf, but for cripes sakes, he could have offered these birds as pets or to those who just wanted that breed and weren't looking to attain first places in shows. Instead he just took them far away from home and released them. They started showing up as found birds, and we eventually got to the bottom of the unhappy situation.

So .. anybody want to volunteer for duty on 911 Pigeon Alert?

Terry


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I'll add my inexperienced word on this. "Racer" as we call her now, is still with us. I "tossed " her 2 miles from the loft yesterday and she promptly flew back. I called the person who knows this bird (he is actually the secretary of the club this bird flew from) and left a message. No return call so far--and I called last night. So today I went out about 6 miles and tossed her again. Racer was back sitting on my loft before I drove in my driveway. Now what to do? I'll try and contact this person again, I guess. What if I never hear from him? Maybe they really aren't interested in traveling 120 miles north to get this bird back. I like the bird--but I deal with white homers for dove release and I don't want him or her breeding with my flock as I don't have the room (as much as I'd love to have a variety of breeds --it just doesn't fit now.) On the other hand, I cannot just forget about the bird or send it back to where she would be culled--if that would be the case. I'll give it more time and will continue to feed and protect her (I think it's a girl, anyway) and hope one of my lonely males doesn't fall in love  
But if I never hear from the secretary, I guess I'll just make room for one more and deal with the eggs when they come. My birds have flown with her and have a great time--she really flies fast and they all try and keep up--maybe she can be my "trainer".  
So back to the debate. If this person never tries to claim this bird, after repeated attempt by me to contact him--is the bird mine?


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren It not I found a bird its mine. NO And you know it work at times to find a owner. You just do not call say THE AU. Now if its a club AU band its easyer. IF its a ARPU band or dealer au band it takes aliittle more time. Then you have to get a holld of a contact person. THEN if they kept good records it traces back to the person the band was sold too. Then you contact that person. THEN they either act intersted or not on getting the bird back. WHAT I through up on charges if you want to look at the legal aspect of found animals and birds. yes you can charge for care. BUT most will not. A car is much different. DO you call the police and say I have a pigeon that came to my loft can you put it in your impound until the owner can be found. NOW we know most impound items are never returned to the owners NO you keep the bird. BUT how long . And agin if you release the bird to the sky. THAT gives up rights A person is lucky if the bird comes home. AND more lucky if a person calls says your bird is at my loft. NOW to be in the aspect of that. Will you drive say 300 miles to pick that bird up. IF not then what. IM not saying just keep a bird. Im saying over rating lost birds to the point that its theft to keep them. means but one thing. If a bird comes to your loft you have too '''it or be intouble. THATS the way this is going. IF you can not find the owner. give it a home or give it to someone that will take care of it. If a person has tried repeativly to release the bird tried to find the owner they have more then gone out of there way to help the bird get back to its home. BUT thats all they can do. AND as a flyer would YOU want a bird back that wnet to someone elses loft and trapped and when released stayed there. I would more then gladly give that person that bird. AS it would not be a bird to breed from or race agin to my loft. Because it chose a new home of its own chooseing when it repeativly stayed there. A person can only do so much DID the owner post they lost the bird or anything at all. MOST do nothing to try and find what happened. because the bird failed to return. THATS a truth matter statement. MOST all racing people fail to ever go out of there way to locate a bird lost in the race or training or fly away from the loft. Because often they consider it was not a lose but a cull to the program. And the sometimes bird that was a good flyer they wonder for a time what happened THEN never try to find out any way. What I am saying IF the owner can care less what happened to a lost bird THEN why condem a person who finds trys to send it home and can not get it done.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

FYI

RCW 9.61.190
Carrier or racing pigeons -- Injury to.

It is a class 1 civil infraction for any person, other than the owner thereof or his authorized agent, to knowingly shoot, kill, maim, injure, molest, entrap, or detain any Antwerp Messenger or Racing Pigeon, commonly called "carrier or racing pigeons", having the name of its owner stamped upon its wing or tail or bearing upon its leg a band or ring with the name or initials of the owner or an identification or registration number stamped thereon.

[1987 c 456 § 25; 1963 c 69 § 1.]
NOTES:
Legislative finding -- 1987 c 456: See RCW 7.80.005.
Effective date -- 1987 c 456 §§ 9-31: See RCW 7.80.901.

RCW 9.61.200
Carrier or racing pigeons -- Removal or alteration of identification.

It is a class 2 civil infraction for any person other than the owner thereof or his authorized agent to remove or alter any stamp, leg band, ring, or other mark of identification attached to any Antwerp Messenger or Racing Pigeon.

[1987 c 456 § 26; 1963 c 69 § 2.]
NOTES:
Legislative finding -- 1987 c 456: See RCW 7.80.005.
Effective date -- 1987 c 456 §§ 9-31: See RCW 7.80.901.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/rcw/index.cfm....61&RequestTimeout=500&printver=2#rcw9.61.190


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

*sigh*


It will be sometime before I speak-up here again and try to have a discussion. Re Lee, thanks for your posts, as I tend to agree with them.

SFL, Colorguy and even you, Ellen... y'all have much more experience and knowlege then I do, I cannot deny that, but even with all that time and knowlege, y'all still haven't learned that just because you shout loudly and long enough, that doesn't mean people are going to start thinking you're right.

I wish I had never posted in this thread. Thanks guys.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

RE LOFTS. That may pertain to a certion area. BUT not most anywhere. Very few states within the U S A have any law that protects pigeons even homing pigeons. TEXAS many years ago adapted a law that it was a 25 dollar fine to knowing shoot to kill a racing pigeon. Yes somew countries have a law in place for owner transfer of a homer. THE real point here is what can you really do. LIKE i have said there are thousands of racers lost each and every year here in the U S They never return home. The ones a person finds and never locates the owner whats next. AS said earlyer HOW many owners go out of there way to recover a lost bird. HOW many owners if the bird trapped else where get the bird back only to destroy it. IM not defending stealing pigeons. Im not defending finders keepers. Im defending the fact many times a person can not locate a owner . EVEN if that person flies and races the birds there self. SO what answers do we have that remains valid. You either keep or give the bird away. If it does not leave on its own. Thats the fare thing. At least it lives. BUt I guess others see a negitive outlook to what to do. In other countries THey have a more solid race program Then in the U S A . they do not fly there youngbirds into the ground they do not over work there birds. IF a bird is lost. MOst often it has performed and should of made it home. IT has value to the loft. BUT if it did trap in a loft. IT remains questioned on ablity. IN America Often birds are over bred. over raced. improper training. Birds are not thought of as well. BUT as a contest to win. NOW some will say WHAT. but its true. THe program of young bird races should be relooked dropped in distance. LOFT limits in place. On all races. So birds do not have to be over bred. Young birds can mature better. And as old bird can perform better. Some Countries will Never race on a hot day. Knowing it affects the birds. BUT here How many send birds out and KNow it going to get in the 100 degree rating. Other countries have never changing race staions. THat a person can develop birds to fly that course. And do so with consistant progress. Crowded lofts birds are not happy Birds do a fly away sometimes just to leave that enviroment. If sound programs And sound races were in place better performance to races would happen MUCH MUCH less in lost birds would happen. MORE fault lays there then in any one that finds the lost bird THAT most owners could care less about. IN America. Whats the saying I CULL my birds in the sky. NOW I used that word AS a point Not as offensive measure. BUT people do that NOT thinking if better measure were in place The birds would be much better. And better shape to get home. Over worked improper breeding poor managenment. Greed all make havoc To a sport that good if properly controled by the sporting method instead of pushing for the win. But building and enjoying that win. I may have raised a few eyebrows in my thoughts. BUT if we think about things ARE we fare to our birds do we give them the tools to compete by. DO we care enough to be a real sportsman in that the bird should be thought of as a hobby not a bussieness or have try to win every race thing. And if lost where did I go wrong in the program. In other words care enough to bred quality birds that can perform. Pamper them as for what they are. nEver over work them put them first knowing they do not know they are in a race. they just want to come home. ANDS they do that because they love there home. And you should love the birds. If not THen what is the reason to keep them at all.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Well, if my may add, as I've been in the background, this has been a very interesting as well as an informative thread.

Bartuska,

Thank you for caring for this racing bird, who is so-far unclaimed. You have done everything you can to find the birds owner. It is quite a dilemna for you as you are left in a "holding pattern." Sounds like the bird maybe re-homing with yours, by no fault of your own.

..and EVERYONE who POSTED thank you for your time and all the information given, excellent.


What's the next step in resolving the issue of THIS lost bird?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bartuska said:


> I'll add my inexperienced word on this. "Racer" as we call her now, is still with us. I "tossed " her 2 miles from the loft yesterday and she promptly flew back. I called the person who knows this bird (he is actually the secretary of the club this bird flew from) and left a message. No return call so far--and I called last night. So today I went out about 6 miles and tossed her again. Racer was back sitting on my loft before I drove in my driveway. Now what to do? I'll try and contact this person again, I guess. What if I never hear from him? Maybe they really aren't interested in traveling 120 miles north to get this bird back. I like the bird--but I deal with white homers for dove release and I don't want him or her breeding with my flock as I don't have the room (as much as I'd love to have a variety of breeds --it just doesn't fit now.) On the other hand, I cannot just forget about the bird or send it back to where she would be culled--if that would be the case. I'll give it more time and will continue to feed and protect her (I think it's a girl, anyway) and hope one of my lonely males doesn't fall in love
> But if I never hear from the secretary, I guess I'll just make room for one more and deal with the eggs when they come. My birds have flown with her and have a great time--she really flies fast and they all try and keep up--maybe she can be my "trainer".
> So back to the debate. If this person never tries to claim this bird, after repeated attempt by me to contact him--is the bird mine?


 After all this....I would say the true owner could not care less, and it is your bird. Often, when a "stray" finds a food source, it will stay around. It is apparent, that this bird has now imprinted onto your loft. It would have been nice, had the owner got back to you and simply said thanks, you can keep the pigeon.


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> After all this....I would say the true owner could not care less, and it is your bird. Often, when a "stray" finds a food source, it will stay around. It is apparent, that this bird has now imprinted onto your loft. It would have been nice, had the owner got back to you and simply said thanks, you can keep the pigeon.




Warren, 

Once I pulled myself out of the overhead and stopped to breath after a string of profanities... I got to thinking... and I really have to thank you for your post. What a wonderful joke it is! After 3 pages of shots from many fired back and forth at me and at each other here, all stemmed by my original post that I have a stray that was ultimately given to me by another fancier who 1) found it in his loft, 2) tried to find its owner (contacted the NPA, NPA couldn't match bird's band to owner), thus, 3) failed, 4) goofed -- tired to sell it, 5) owner was found (the NPA re-reviewed records and _now_ was able to match bird's band to owner), 6) owner said he could do with it as he cared, and 7) he gave the bird to me. *I goofed* and posted about it here... I have since been accused of being everything from being involved in irresponsible stray pigeon handling, to being too inexperienced to _really know or understand anything_, to being unintelligent and not understanding the English language, to being a thief & criminal in violation of tomes of federal and state laws regarding banded racing pigeons... believe me, I can be pretty thick skinned about all of that, except the last. What a wonderful sense of timing and sarcasm you have to basically say, "Ah, Bartuska, just keep the bird if you want"... seeing as how the club secretary and/or owner can't bother to call her back with timely, accurate and helpful information... no need for any written permission from the true owner or registration with the club secretary or national organizations that you've adopted the bird, ah, never you mind about what was said earlier here, you just keep it... totally contradicting your's and other's earlier posts.


-----------------------

Bartuska,

Thanks much for taking care of "Racer". She's lucky to have found you.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Ah...shucks Zig, according to my wife and others, I contradict myself all the time. There is the academic discussion, and then after you get through all that...then there is the practical.

Truth be told, most racing fanciers do not want a stray back. At least not enough to travel any distance. I always make the effort, when I get a call, unless the bird ended up three states away. And I do it, for the public relations. 

Like a lot of things, people get all wrapped up in which point of view is politically correct. Somewhere along the line, the real point, get's lost. In this particular case, this bird passed the test to determine ownership according to my combine. The bird is tossed, and it returns to the real "owner". The pigeon made up her mind where she wants to live, and if I was the judge, I would say case closed, it's a "Bartuska" bird.


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

Thanks everyone. I will care for Racer and see what happens. The owner/secretary has my number. After seeing Tress's loft I see she has a "racer" with her white homers, too. They all get along and the bird is free to choose at this point.  And she likes me--I can actually pet her. Maybe she wanted the more laid back, spoiled rotten, life of the Silver Wind Doves--


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Good luck. We'd love to see a pic of "Racer" if/when you get a chance.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Tim,

You need to quit taking things so personal, the original posting of the bird for sell that you now have had nothing to do with you, it was the finder that actually tried to sell it not you as I remember you were trying to buy it and the sell was shut down due to it was the ethical thing to do with a stray until things could be figured out, you were trying to defend him in this post and I was trying to point out that there is no need and give you pointers on how things could be handled, he was incorrect in doing this auction and posting it as a stray that he was selling, had he said it belonged to so and so and it strayed into my loft that would have been another story. 

I am sorry for the short post of the Federal Law, I have been gone out of town and just before leaving I tried to post a message well the screen blanked out on me and so what is there in place of my post is only the Federal law everything was lost in between so I only posted the Federal law which exists in all states in the United States, this is only because I didn't feel like retyping my original message again and figured that was the just part of it anyway.

Now with that said Tim, don't get so deffensive no one is picking on you for anything, you can post what you want, but at the same time as always with a open forum such as this you may come up with a debate or two on your hands, I figured you could handle the conversation going on, in the future I will try not to confront you on such a subject that I work with daily, in the future I guess if I have a problem with your post I will message you direct to enlighten you on some of my experiences, my posts were not in anyway meant to emberass you, or anger you, only to try to give you another point of view of looking at things as well as educate all on the Federal Laws that sometimes work to assist many when they find someone doing harm to a pigeon.

Now with regards to this found pigeon, I to believe that it needs to be addressed by the National Organization, Bartuska, please call the American Racing Pigeon Union main office and explain to them the contact that you have had thus far, explain that I Ellen Walley asked you to call them, call 1-800-755-2778 and ask for Deone Roberts or Karen Clifton either of these ladies can assist you further, it is fine that you want to adopt this wayward pigeon and by all means please do by advising the AU office when you call them, what is not ok is the lack there of responsibility of the pigeon fancier if that is what it is and they need to look into it, I would prefer that you make the call, if not I can make the call for you but it would be better if you call and I will let them know that I have advised you to call in regarding this pigeon AU 2005 ARPU 22245 which is registered to RON MALESA of CAROL STREAM, IL.

Please let me know what you find out,

Ellen


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In what manner would the A U respond to a member that fails to pick up or retreave a bird. THIS lack of concern among pigeon raceing has been going on for about ever. MOST all flyers see a bird as lost if it does not return. Never to go out of there way to try and find it. People who find a bird. are met with having to locate a flyer. YES no days its easyer to do so. BUT agin The A U and other flying orgs, have not set down a strong policy on recovery of lost birds and neglectful owners. Have they. Over the years I have had several birds come to my loft. I have contacted several owners over the years . NOT ONE wanted the bird back. most told me if the bird came back after it had trapped in my loft. they would pull the head. THATS blunt but true. I had a bird of mine found befor and the person wanted money to give it back. I told them they could have the bird. I know a person that raises near 250 young birds a year. BY race season he has about 75 the other 175 are gone lost. I think better management is the real answer to less birds being lost. THIS bring quality into a program. BUT i would really like to know what if anything will the A U do about owners that are not responsible in picking up there birds AS I would think over 75% percent fail to do so. IT is a catch 22 on Lost birds. We know its a good thing to try so it should be a good thing to have kept the bird when either a person is not found or fails to contact back or just fail to ever pick up a bird. AND as register of the birds. HOW many thousands of birds change hands each year without THE A U ever knowing a bird was sold or gave away. THer is no set control of pigeon raiseing in place in america. Just a method. Some countries bands are issued then if ownership transffers the national org has to be notified on the transfer and duley recorded. NOT done here. Will it ever be done perhaps. Will it be enforced perhaps. BUT a lot of changes will have to be made. AND people have to abide by that.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Relee,

The AU has taken a stronger stand on this issue and will contact the member them self if the member is not acting appropriately and what they do I don't know for sure. I do know that it has been discussed should a member act in a way that is not appropriate, or as I have done in the past is to bring the person up on unsportsmanship conduct and the person can be disciplined by either first a warning, second a suspension, third a expulsion I think each depends on how far it has to go first, but as far as the actual discipline taken the AU doesn't make it known to us only that it has been taken care of, this is how many facilities handle their disciplinary actions so I don't question it, I do know if a person is suspended, or expelled they are not allowed to fly in any AU affiliated club or IF club as they both stand together on their displinary actions.

Ellen


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I am aware of that. But most of that conduct does not bleed to birds lost and found. It has more to do with. cheating in races. Taking money for races and not paying it out. Stealing from another loft. Knowingly doctoring paper work. Ect. something that atributes to race conduct. That fact remains. That birds are lost in great numbers. birds are not transfered by the A U to other owners. when sold or gave away. No tracking method is even in place. Other then wher the bands wassold. What dealer What race secetary for a club. Then on to the club member. Then you have members that fail to record there birds as bred. Other then banding the bird and race it. Until someone tells them they have a bird found with there band issue on it. Then they say I was wondering what happened to the bird. But really never gave a second thought to what did happen. This is the true sport. Not much real thought evr goes to where a bird is what happened. Just it did not make it home. NOW if it dissapeared out of the loft. THen much concern goes on as it was stolen. Just like people with dogs and cats. There petting wonders off never to be seen agin. They do not even care enough to look for it. BUT more pet owners will look then ANY raceing pigeon owner ever will in most cases. Sad but true. its the hazzard of the sport. And looked at in that view. I lost 6 birds on this weekends race. I still have 26 birds left so I will race next week also. No big deal. Happens all the time. Value comes to the breeder that breeds a family of birds trains them right does not over work them and WINS WINS WINS> because he cared and has much less of a lose in the races. because of it. BUT how many people in just 1 club do that now days. While most fly the heck out of there birds and do not really care if they get lost. I have been in pigeons most my life Birds are great to have. But People over look the need to cultivate a loft. THAT takes time. ANd time is not what some want to spend. They want results now at any cost. The dark side is what I said Is very true.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Unsportsmanship conduct can be in the form of not picking up your bird if you are acting in a manor that can do harm to our sport, it is your reponsibility as a pigeon fancier to see that your birds are properly cared for and maintained. Call Karen at the AU and speak with her, I have completed a infraction in the past they are pretty simple to do, and if you can not locate the code for the infraction write it in and submit it, having it in writing will get the complaint looked into.


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

Well, Racer left as of 2 days ago. She flew with my flock on Tuesday and must have left from the loft that afternoon. The "owner" has my email and is supposed to contact me if the bird returns. I am worried about the bird now--as far as if she will be welcomed home. Let's hope for the best.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

re lee said:


> In what manner would the A U respond to a member that fails to pick up or retreave a bird. THIS lack of concern among pigeon raceing has been going on for about ever. MOST all flyers see a bird as lost if it does not return. Never to go out of there way to try and find it. People who find a bird. are met with having to locate a flyer. YES no days its easyer to do so. BUT agin The A U and other flying orgs, have not set down a strong policy on recovery of lost birds and neglectful owners. Have they. Over the years I have had several birds come to my loft. I have contacted several owners over the years . NOT ONE wanted the bird back. most told me if the bird came back after it had trapped in my loft. they would pull the head. THATS blunt but true. I had a bird of mine found befor and the person wanted money to give it back. I told them they could have the bird. I know a person that raises near 250 young birds a year. BY race season he has about 75 the other 175 are gone lost. I think better management is the real answer to less birds being lost. THIS bring quality into a program. BUT i would really like to know what if anything will the A U do about owners that are not responsible in picking up there birds AS I would think over 75% percent fail to do so. IT is a catch 22 on Lost birds. We know its a good thing to try so it should be a good thing to have kept the bird when either a person is not found or fails to contact back or just fail to ever pick up a bird. AND as register of the birds. HOW many thousands of birds change hands each year without THE A U ever knowing a bird was sold or gave away. THer is no set control of pigeon raiseing in place in america. Just a method. Some countries bands are issued then if ownership transffers the national org has to be notified on the transfer and duley recorded. NOT done here. Will it ever be done perhaps. Will it be enforced perhaps. BUT a lot of changes will have to be made. AND people have to abide by that.


 Just my two cents.

The National Organizations don't set policy in and of themselves. They are elected by the membership. And they serve at the will of the members. If a member feels that policys regarding lost pigeons, are not harsh enough, or strong enough, then that can be addressed by the membership.

I would suggest, that one start at his own club level, and then at the combine level. If you are unsucessful at changing the minds of those you fly with, then there is doubt, that change could be brought about at a National level.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Great Job !*



bartuska said:


> Well, Racer left as of 2 days ago. She flew with my flock on Tuesday and must have left from the loft that afternoon. The "owner" has my email and is supposed to contact me if the bird returns. I am worried about the bird now--as far as if she will be welcomed home. Let's hope for the best.


 Hello Bartuska,

"Your" Racer, did stir up some good conversation.  

Don't lose heart, just because a bird was out for a week or so does not condemn him or her to "Culling". Anyone ever hear of a pigeon referred to as "720" ?

Yes, the "720" of Fred Smeltzer fame. It is my understanding, that Fred claims that "720" was once lost for several weeks. This bird went on to become a Champion racer and breeder. 

The pigeon you named "Racer", may have just demonstrated some keen survival skills. He adapted, improvised, and after food and rest, continued on his journey. Pretty smart bird, don't you think ? 

During racing season, my preference is to feed and water these lost birds, outside my loft. One good reason is my own biosecurity, the other is, I don't want to encourage the bird to stay, I just want to provide nourishment to continue on.

You did an excellent job, helping this bird, and attempting to connect with and inform the owner. Excellent job, great post, thank you.


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Bartuska,

I think that this pigeon will be fine, as Warren stated all so well. While your experience with this individual may not of been the most up lifting experience there are many fanciers that would have given a lot more positive experience for you. Don't be surprised if your little Racer doesn't come for a visit again on occasion.

Ellen


----------



## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

*Update on Owner/Breeder*

Bartuska,

I contacted the American Racing Pigeon Union regarding your little charge, I know he has flown the coop now but I wanted to pass on what was learned from the band secretary as well as additional information.
*********************************************
From Deone Roberts with the American Racing Pigeon Union:

Hi Ellen.

I spoke with Ron Malesa regarding the referenced. The bird belongs to a Spanish speaking member of the club and he is not "well to do" as Ron puts it. The owner offered to give the bird or asked that it be fattened and released.

The finder had left another message for Malesa, but did not leave her telephone number. He wanted to explain that the bird can be bulked up and taken 20 miles away (rather than 2) and released. By now, the bird should be wanting to go home.

I understand the finder is located in Madison, Wisconsin.

If the finder would like to call Ron again and leave her number for him, his phone is 630-665-8529.

Hope that helps.

Deone

***************************
Bartuska If you would like to follow up on this little one please call Ron back and leave your number if he is not home.

Ellen


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*AU is #1 in Support*



relofts said:


> Bartuska,
> 
> I contacted the American Racing Pigeon Union regarding your little charge, I know he has flown the coop now but I wanted to pass on what was learned from the band secretary as well as additional information.
> *********************************************
> ...



Ellen,

I rest my case. Deone has over 10,000 members to service, and yet she finds the time to follow up on the welfare of a single racing pigeon. My hat is off to the American Racing Pigeon Union !!


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

To offer to give or release the bird after its up to returning home. And the A U locating the owner. Both are common Results. Lost birds Are not often retrieved. And I was sure the A U could not enforce This. Because its a individual thing. AND birds can be found 100s of miles off course Which gets costly to pickup. Thats Why I stuck with the concept. That after you find a bird can not locate a owner Or such, You have but 2 options keep or get rid of it. If it fails to reurn on its own to its home. But yes Im glad the bird left perhaps its home now. And the A U did more then its job to talk with someone abought the bird. KUDOS to that.


----------



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I hope racer finds her way home. I'd be happy to hear she did.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Would love to know myself, hope the owner calls.


----------

