# help please,pigeons moving head uncontrolably



## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hello,i noticed that one of my pigeons was moving his head in a very funny way,side to side and in a twisting fashion some times,in the past few days i noticed 2 other birds acting the same way,they dont fly and wont eat or drink,and sometimes they go around in circles,what shoul i do,i have never had this problem until now,should i seperate the sick ones,could someone please give me some advise.thank you


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yes, isolate the sick ones ASAP.

The most _common_ causes of twisting neck and inability to fly are Paramyxovirus (Pigeon PMV-1) and Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid). 

PMV is a viral disease for which there is no medication (at least, not to directly 'fix' it), Salmonellosis is bacterial and can be treated with certain antibiotics.

With PMV, they tend to spin round in circles 'on the spot' rather than walk in circles, if that is a guide.

Are they just mostly lying down and inactive, or do they show signs of activity (aside from turning circles)?

When you say they won't eat or drink, what exactly is happening? Do they try to eat or are they just showing no interest in food? 

Once isolated, check the poops and please describe them.

John


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Scarey ! I Hope ( Knock On Wood ) This Never happens to Me or my Birds -- Good Luck -- Keep us posted and John D Thanks For the Learning Tools ( good Information ) Peace !


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i just seperated the 3 and noticed they are standing still like they are hypnotized and just stare and one has his head down and bobbing it back and forth and one his head shakes from time to time and the eyes look funny,they are just standing even when i put my hand on them very weird behavior,what kind of medications can i give them,why did this happen,i am worried that i will find more in the days to come,can u please tell me what to do? thanks again folks.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

also they have no interest in food or water,they look like zombies


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How many birds do you have and how is your loft arranged? Where, basically, are you? Sometimes we see more PMV in some areas than others. Can you post pictures of their poops and/or describe them?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

PMV often gets them pretty hard for awhile. Often, there's a progression of symptoms as it can affect the GI tract and then the brain. Have any other flyers in your area ever seen or mentioned anything like it? Are they homers or what?

Pidgey


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i have about 30 birds,i live in st louis missouri i dont know of anyone else that has birds around me,i have mostly homers and about 10 kings,the poops look like green spinach,is there anything i can give them?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Green spinach? Real dark green? More like dark green oil paint?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop, 



What are their Crops like? - be gentle in checking.

Are their Crops full of Water? Or Watery Seeds?

Are they pooping?

Can you post some images of their Poops?


Canker and or Bacterial illness, or other things, causing an obturation of the proventriculus...tends also to lead to Candida, once the Crop contents are soon become static and fermenting/toxic...the Bird gets thirsty, since almost nothing is passing...his system is being poisoned by toxic byproeucs of what little is passing...the Bird over-drinks...the Crop is then full of Water, probably painful, and, uncomfortable.


The Bird then stands around like-a-Bowling-Pin, trying not to retract his Neck, and or making weird neck twisting motions, and, stops eating, gets dehydrated since almost nothing is passing from the Crop, and or seems punch drunk and un-co-ordinated, etc. Trying to hols all that lisuid in.


Check their Crops...

Post some images of them and their poops.



Phil
Lv


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

I say add some apple vinegar ( 2 tablespoons per 2gallons ) to their drinking water , add a seperate dish for bathing without the apple vinegar -- see if they are interested -- Maybe they're over heating -- Is It Hot In The Loft ? Not saying this will solve the problem but if they aren't interested in the Bird bath - then you know its one of the things others are mentioning - as my birds ( Homers ) never refuse Bath Time ! just give it a try and see what happens -- It can't Hurt ! keep us posted on if they turn around from this ! -- it scares me --- I am Learning just as you are -- thanks everyone as if i can learn i can be prepaired if something similiar were to happen ... Good Luck !


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

here is a picture i will try to post another


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

here are the poops,i will post more pics if needed,please let me know what you think.thank you


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

1st Thing I Noticed -- They are Indoors .... Is This where they always are ? Bring them outside during the day -- Fresh air is always good !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> 1st Thing I Noticed -- They are Indoors .... Is This where they always are ? Bring them outside during the day -- Fresh air is always good !


They are inside because they are sick and have been separated from the others.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



In the images, they do not appear to have Crops full of liquids.


Did you check their Crops?


With the thing I was worried about, they can act odd indeed, and have odd postures, odd ways of moving their heads and necks, stand around like statues, move slowly if moving at all, but, they would not lean over though.


This might be PPMV.


This might be some other Virus.


Do you have a friendly Vet you could appeal to, to get some poops analysed?

By this I mean, for the Vet to do a Microscopic evaluation of details the poops will have, which could indicate some things if an illness is present.


How old are these Pigeons, which are showing symptoms?


And...


How many Pigeons do you have who were all together, when this was first noticed?


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Along the lines of what AllAroundAnimal mentioned -

If these afflicted Pigeons are still drinking, then ACV-Water would probably be a good thing.


I would make it as stout as they can put up with, such as, trying 2-1/2 or 3 Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water.


Are they still eating?



Phil
Lv


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

all of my pigeons are together like 40 of them these are the ones i first noticed,the 2 white ones are 5 years and the silver one is 2,i raised him since he was a baby cause his mom got ran over,i have seen only one eat,i have seen none drink but it looks like they drank a small amount,i have no clue where to go get the poop analized, what about my other birds will this get them too,i will keep a close eye up there and make sure to pull the sick ones,so i should give them apple cider vinegar?and their crops feel somewhat empty but not full of water,but i have seen only the silver one eat,they just stand like they are hypnotized,please let me know what i should do.thank you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,


Well...I do not know what this is.


This could be a Virus.

This could be a Toxin from contaminated Seed/Feed, either a pesticide/chemical contaminant, rodenticide, PCBs, Fungal...some kind of toxin or poison.

This could be Bacterial e-coli, Salmonella, Chlamydia, other obscure ones we almost never know the names of.


Any of these would tend to be hardest on the youngest Fledgling Age or younger Birds or young adults of only a few months of age. So, glad to hear these ones so far are older.


Check the feed, smell it, taste it, chew some up...see if anything seems other than fresh and good tasting with that.

ACV-Water of course, needs to be in Plastic or Glass Water-Containers, no metal ones...not even 'Stainless Steel', since now so much of it from communist red china, and is full of Lead and it will leach into the Water, acidic Water all the moreso.



See if any odor to the poops, and if so, what kind of odor.


If these five have begin to show symptoms, it is possible others will also at their own rate.



It seems like there is an intoxication...question is, what kind? and or from what?



Has anyone been spraying for Bag Worms or whatever anywhere near your Loft lately?

Insecticides?

Crop Dusting?



Where are you located?


Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi onestop2050

The poop you posted a pic of closely resembles that of poop I have seen from pigeons with PMV or who have _had_ PMV. Watery pools with a thin and often worm-like dropping. I have one here now with similar poop. However, watery poop with very little dropping can also be a sign of Salmonellosis.

The zombie-like position is also something I have observed with PMV as an initial symptom in some birds. Excessive water intake may be noticed before long in some birds with this problem, due to the effect of the virus on the kidneys.

You can see 'em, we can't, so observe any further symptoms like ...

trying to pick up food and missing, or picking it up and 'tossing' it away
spinning in circles
tremors of the head, and/or eye pupils 'jumping about'

*If* it is PMV, those are further symptoms which may or may not occur, and you may have to hand feed the sick ones if they cannot eat.

Also, check for any swellings of the joints - legs or wings.

If you check with a vet if they would do an analysis of some droppings, it may show something. They could show an overload of parasite such as Trichomonas (Canker causing) or Coccidia. Neither are likely primary causes, but can occur in sick birds because their immune system is run down, and should be treated. A good vet could also check for potentially harmful bacteria and probably narrow it down. Poop samples won't show virus, though.

Another thing is how virus or bacteria could get to your birds..

Is there an abundance of mosquitos in the area?
Do you have any sign of rodents - particularly mice?
Have you had any very recent new birds which were not isolated before joining the rest?

John


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

*contagious disease*



onestop2050 said:


> hello,i noticed that one of my pigeons was moving his head in a very funny way,side to side and in a twisting fashion some times,in the past few days i noticed 2 other birds acting the same way,they dont fly and wont eat or drink,and sometimes they go around in circles,what shoul i do,i have never had this problem until now,should i seperate the sick ones,could someone please give me some advise.thank you


this is an awful disease but my birds were given clavamox and tlc and survived,...take good care of them,they will love you for it,,,sincerely james waller


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

jameswaller said:


> this is an awful disease but my birds were given clavamox and tlc and survived,...take good care of them,they will love you for it,,,sincerely james waller


What disease did your birds have, James? 

Currently, we don't know what the precise problem is with onestop's birds.

John


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Give them a set up so they can take a bath -- see if it takes their minds off of being bored --- and apple vinegar in their drinking water --- just give it a try --- if your birds don't take a bath -- then you know they are sick ---- my birds never refuse a birdy bath ! ( 2 teaspoons for 2 gallons of water with the apple cider vinegar )


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hello and thank you for your reply's,i keep my birds on the roof and i have never seen mice or mosquitos,just a few flies,i have been giving them the same feed now for a while,the stuff from rural king,i does seem a little dusty,i filled the food and today it was nearly empty and the water but it seems like they should have eaten and drank more,but i am happy they ate and drank,i will put apple cider vinigar in the water anything that would help i will do,should i order some clamavox?? and also no pestacides or anything like that has been around them,and today i found another bird with symptons like the head movements and seems like he is confused and can barely fly,i will post more info soon and a couple of more pics,please keep me informed on what to do,i am going to see if they want to bathe.thanks again folks u are great.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> Give them a set up so they can take a bath -- see if it takes their minds off of being bored --- and apple vinegar in their drinking water --- just give it a try --- if your birds don't take a bath -- then you know they are sick ---- my birds never refuse a birdy bath ! ( 2 teaspoons for 2 gallons of water with the apple cider vinegar )


They aren't bored, they are sick with something. If birds who may twist their heads uncontrollably get them upside down, they can drown very quickly in very little water!

John


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

These birds are sick. I wouldn't bath them. Also, if they are disoriented or losing their balance, they could drown. Birds with PMV or other like viruses have been known to drown in a water dish.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Guess we were posting at the same time.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

onestop2050 said:


> hello and thank you for your reply's,i keep my birds on the roof and i have never seen mice or mosquitos,just a few flies,i have been giving them the same feed now for a while,the stuff from rural king,i does seem a little dusty,i filled the food and today it was nearly empty and the water but it seems like they should have eaten and drank more,but i am happy they ate and drank,i will put apple cider vinigar in the water anything that would help i will do,should i order some clamavox?? and also no pestacides or anything like that has been around them,and today i found another bird with symptons like the head movements and seems like he is confused and can barely fly,i will post more info soon and a couple of more pics,please keep me informed on what to do,i am going to see if they want to bathe.thanks again folks u are great.


If they are having co-ordination problems, 'Baths' could be a way of drowning.


Bear this in mind...


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

onestopshop,


Taste the food, chew it up, see how it tastes...there is more to evaluating potentially tainted Seeds or Pellets, than to merely note that they seem maybe 'dusty'.


'Dusty' in itself is probably a cause for concern or doubt as to it's wholesomeness, anyway.


Phil
Lv


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*Didn't Say Bored !*



John_D said:


> They aren't bored, they are sick with something. If birds who may twist their heads uncontrollably get them upside down, they can drown very quickly in very little water!
> 
> John


 I said They Could Be Over Heating - Try A Bath ! ( If The Birds aren't interested then yes more and likely something wrong ! and I stick with it --- My Birds get bored yes -- and look tired and lazy and you put some water in the loft for them -- and they look like a bunch of children on xmas morning -- They go crazy --- Theres nothing wrong with given it a shot as long as you are watching kinda closely --- I don't believe in medications , theres to many home remedy's and pigeons have been living for many many years in the wild without medications -- Give it A Try and Let us all Know what Happens ! Good Luck , Peace !


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

At least around here, 'Overheating' is accompanied by obvious Panting.


Possible PPMV or Salmonella or Intoxication related or other 'twisting' or Balance issue Pigeons, 'Baths' can be dangerous, they can drown very easily if they get in and fall over, or get panicky and twisty with their Heads upside down and low...


Whether Wild or Domestic, Helathy Pigeons do not need Medications.


Wild or Domestic Pigeons who have illness, or systemic infections, can be saved or remedied with appropriate Medications...to then be well again, where, they will not need Medications.


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*Oops Maybe I Did ?*



AllAroundAnimal said:


> Give them a set up so they can take a bath -- see if it takes their minds off of being bored --- and apple vinegar in their drinking water --- just give it a try --- if your birds don't take a bath -- then you know they are sick ---- my birds never refuse a birdy bath ! ( 2 teaspoons for 2 gallons of water with the apple cider vinegar )


O.K so I did say bored -- It could be a combination of Bored and Heat Issues -- Ya Never know until you try it --- Tell me if your sitting there watchin them how are they going to drown-- come on these birds aren't heavy and they have feathers -- They'd float -- It Is possible i know but just watch them and if something appears wrong be quick about helping ---- I'd at least try It --- and The Apple Cider Vinegar , It Kills Parasites and could help without medicating ! Good Luck !


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> I said They Could Be Over Heating - Try A Bath ! ( If The Birds aren't interested then yes more and likely something wrong ! and I stick with it --- My Birds get bored yes -- and look tired and lazy and you put some water in the loft for them -- and they look like a bunch of children on xmas morning -- They go crazy --- Theres nothing wrong with given it a shot as long as you are watching kinda closely --- I don't believe in medications , *theres to many home remedy's and pigeons have been living for many many years in the wild without medications *-- Give it A Try and Let us all Know what Happens ! Good Luck , Peace !




Gads, AllAroundAnimal...many of those pigeons in the wild, that don't have medications to cure them, pass right on over to the Rainbow Bridge.
One of the wonderful things about the modern times we live in, is that we can intervene and stop nature from taking her course.


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*Aaaah !*



pdpbison said:


> At least around here, 'Overheating' is accompanied by obvious Panting.
> 
> 
> Possible PPMV or Salmonella or Intoxication related or other 'twisting' or Balance issue Pigeons, 'Baths' can be dangerous, they can drown very easily if they get in and fall over, or get panicky and twisty with their Heads upside down and low...
> ...


 Once n Med's , I believe always on Med's ... let Them fight it off and make their immune system stronger - same thing the " Wild Type " Do , and like i said -- If He / She Is watching over the birds , How are they going to Drown ???


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> O.K so I did say bored -- It could be a combination of Bored and Heat Issues -- Ya Never know until you try it --- Tell me if your sitting there watchin them how are they going to drown-- come on these birds aren't heavy and they have feathers -- They'd float -- It Is possible i know but just watch them and if something appears wrong be quick about helping ---- I'd at least try It --- and The Apple Cider Vinegar , It Kills Parasites and could help without medicating ! Good Luck !


I think the poster knows the difference between the heat bothering his birds, and their being very ill. I would know the difference. Why would you want to bath a sick bird? First off, these ARE sick birds he is dealing with, and a bath, like chicken soup, is not going to help.


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*Thats My Opinion and You Have Yours !*



Charis said:


> Gads, AllAroundAnimal...many of those pigeons in the wild, that don't have medications to cure them, pass right on over to the Rainbow Bridge.
> One of the wonderful things about the modern times we live in, is that we can intervene and stop nature from taking her course.


 I am sure This Is A Never ending battle between alot of people whom have different beliefs -- I have My own and You Have Your Own ---- But what I am saying Is Why Not " Try " This 1st before medication ??????? -- boy i hope he / she does and it wrks --- Then me and You can go on with this .... On and on and on .... lol ! Peace !


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...sigh...


allaroundanimal...I am sure you mean well, but, you really do not understand what you are talking about.

All it takes is a split second for a Bird to aspirate Water, and, literally "Drown", and there will be nothing you can do about it.

Pigeons prefer to Bathe volitionally, and forcing them to Bathe would not be appreciated by them.

Letting them bathe voloitionally, under these conditions, would be dangerous.



All I have ever had are Wild Birds, who I get because I or others find them on the ground, sick or injured or both.

Dieing of an untreated disease or infection does not make them stronger...it just makes them 'dead'.

Immonological compromise in Wild Birds is almost certainly a result of diet, if not also of other environmental factors.

In an ideal world, all areas would have adaquate Nutrition available for all Species.

The World we do have, however, does not usually offer that amenity...for Wild or Domestic Birds.



Phil
Lv


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> Once n Med's , I believe always on Med's ... let Them fight it off and make their immune system stronger - same thing the " Wild Type " Do , and like i said -- If He / She Is watching over the birds , How are they going to Drown ???


 Many different illnesses and virus will kill pigeons, wild or domestic. Without medications, you would lose them. Apparently you have a lot of learning to do, so maybe you need to do a bit more reading before deciding that medications should never be used. This is a great place to learn. Maybe you will do that, if you listen to the advice and experience of others.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

onestop2050 said:


> hello and thank you for your reply's,i keep my birds on the roof and i have never seen mice or mosquitos,just a few flies,i have been giving them the same feed now for a while,the stuff from rural king,i does seem a little dusty,i filled the food and today it was nearly empty and the water but it seems like they should have eaten and drank more,but i am happy they ate and drank,i will put apple cider vinigar in the water anything that would help i will do,should i order some clamavox?? and also no pestacides or anything like that has been around them,and today i found another bird with symptons like the head movements and seems like he is confused and can barely fly,i will post more info soon and a couple of more pics,please keep me informed on what to do,i am going to see if they want to bathe.thanks again folks u are great.


Hi Onestop

*If* this batch of feed happens to be 'bad' then it could possibly cause a toxic reaction, so it's one to consider if there's been no new birds lately, and they haven't mixed with any 'outsiders' and there's no identifiable source of infectious disease. As regards the feed, do Rural King market a real pigeon mix, or do you give the birds something like pellets or chicken scratch? 

I wouldn't rush to get Clavamox, myself, without knowing what the cause of this problem is. Do you have a vet in the area who can run some tests?

Can you describe the head movements a little more? Is the head actually being turned wrong way up (stargazing) or is it a different kind of movement?


John

PS - seems like no bath is mostly agreed - believe me, if a bird turns its head completely upside down whilst in water, it can get water in the lungs and die very rapidly, likely before one even gets the chance to grab it!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



See if you can set up a good bright light, sit down, have someone help you hold one of the afflicted, and...

Holding the Pigeon vertically, open their Beak under a good strong Light, and examine their Mouths and Throats.


See if everything in there is a nice clean happy 'pink', or not.

If 'purple' or mucousy or anything other than a nice clean happy 'pink', let us know?


What are the temperatures there anyway?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i just tried to bathe them and they could care less,also looked like they could have fell and not gotten back up,so i put them back in the cage,could anyone recommend any meds??,also i tasted the food and its normal but dusty,i am going to hand feed one cause he feels a little light,i want to get them some meds but what kind?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Re: my last Post right above yours...check their Throats please...


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

temps here in the 90's i will go check the throat,and i beleive i had a outside pigeon in my loft about 1 week ago and he excaped 1 or 2 days later when i let them out,he looked odd but i could not tell if he was sick and he never came back.


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*Hmmmmm !*



Jay3 said:


> Many different illnesses and virus will kill pigeons, wild or domestic. Without medications, you would lose them. Apparently you have a lot of learning to do, so maybe you need to do a bit more reading before deciding that medications should never be used. This is a great place to learn. Maybe you will do that, if you listen to the advice and experience of others.


 I am here To Learn my friend but i still have my own beliefs when med's are involved -- am I the 1st person you have ever come across that doesn't believe in Med's -- theres no way ..... I believe The Strong Survive - and Thats without Human intervention -- You Can't argue the fact that Pigeons have been doing this in the wild for many years ( Period ) .... and the birds not going to drown if it is strong enough to get up eat , drink and get into the bathe and you are watching over them -- this all started because I said at Least " Try " it --- whats it going to hurt if the Bird is already sick and dieing anyways -- I still believe It would Help - proove it wrong and Then I won't believe my Theory -- I also went to College for veterinary Technology and animal Science and have had Birds Most Of My Life -- Without any medications and haven't Lost a Bird to sickness - Ever ! ( Knock On Wood ) Peace !


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*O.K Then !*



onestop2050 said:


> i just tried to bathe them and they could care less,also looked like they could have fell and not gotten back up,so i put them back in the cage,could anyone recommend any meds??,also i tasted the food and its normal but dusty,i am going to hand feed one cause he feels a little light,i want to get them some meds but what kind?


 at least you tried My theory and Now Its The Matriarch whom knows about med's you must speak with -- and I'll sit Back , Take In Information and Learn ! Good Luck and sorry you have to deal with these poor sick birds - Its gotta Be Tough ! Peace !!!!!!!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> I am here To Learn my friend but i still have my own beliefs when med's are involved -- am I the 1st person you have ever come across that doesn't believe in Med's -- theres no way ..... I believe The Strong Survive - and Thats without Human intervention -- You Can't argue the fact that Pigeons have been doing this in the wild for many years ( Period ) .... and the birds not going to drown if it is strong enough to get up eat , drink and get into the bathe and you are watching over them -- this all started because I said at Least " Try " it --- *whats it going to hurt if the Bird is already sick and dieing anyways -- *I still believe It would Help - proove it wrong and Then I won't believe my Theory -- I also went to College for veterinary Technology and animal Science and have had Birds Most Of My Life -- Without any medications and haven't Lost a Bird to sickness - Ever ! ( Knock On Wood ) Peace !




Because if the bird is sick, the right medicine can save the bird's life.
Keep on knocking...you'd better not stop.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i just checked the throats and they look normal,no discoloration just pink,i see the heads on them move in a different fashion,one moves it side to side with a small shake and one just stares with hardly any head movement and one keeps his head mostly down but they look so bad they just stand and shake their heads,any recommendations on meds please??


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi AllAroundAnimal

As Charis and Phil and Jay3 have said - if a bird is sick and needs medication, then it should be provided. Anyone who has a pigeon in their care - fancier, rescuer or 'pet owner' - should take what steps they can to get the illness identified, and then follow the appropriate treatment. 

Not sure what you mean by the 'wild type'? If you mean "Rock Pigeons" in their natural environment (a few parts of the UK and mainland Europe) then it's unlikely that studies of disease amongst them has been done. If you mean feral pigeons, well, most of those that get sick and die we shall never even know about - those who get lucky and get rescued will just be the few. Disease will be transmitted very easily amongst 'city pigeons', and the unhealthy, unnatural environment they have to live in is a breeding ground for disease.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

onestop2050 said:


> i just checked the throats and they look normal,no discoloration just pink,i see the heads on them move in a different fashion,one moves it side to side with a small shake and one just stares with hardly any head movement and one keeps his head mostly down but they look so bad they just stand and shake their heads,any recommendations on meds please??



Hi onestopshop...


It is hard to decide Meds, without some decision as to the kind of issue/illness it is.


This does not seem to co-respond to anything familiar to anyone, other than it somewhat resembles any of various things, some of which would not be conditions where Medicines as such would be given anyway.


Have the poops/urates changed at all?


And or, would you post some images of whatever fresh poops there are presently?


We can see then on maybe electing a Med.


Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi onestop

What you said about the stranger pigeon could be relevant, particularly if he was sharing food and water with your birds. If he was in the early stage of a bacterial or viral infection, that is a typical way in which disease can be transmitted.

I have a bird who kept shaking his head side to side when he had ear mites, but I would not expect several birds to come down with that and cause the problems you have. 

Are the birds losing a lot of weight? When were they last wormed?

Suggesting meds is pretty difficult without knowing what the problem is that needs treatment - if it's viral, then there won't be any meds worth trying ... if it's bacterial, different antibiotics could be needed depending on what bacteria are involved .. if it's a parasite then different meds again.

I have a bird who has lost a lot of weight and is obviously sick. He had PMV way back, so just looking at his poops is not a very reliable guide, as the kidneys can suffer permanent damage from the virus and PMV-like poops can be produced long after. Tomorrow, I shall get a poop sample analysed - either through a vet or by sending off to a good testing lab, whichever is likely to be quickest - because I cannot be sure what the problem is. No Canker, no worms, and he has been treated for Coccidia overload, and I'm not about to just make a guess.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



Yup...

As John D has just say'd...


This could well be a Virus...


But, could be something else too...some sort of illness or sickness of a Bacterial or Micro-Organism sort.


Could be a toxin or poison of some kind from tainted Feed.


Their Kidneys are not processing normally, and or their system is flushing/dumping Urine as thin watery liquid, instead of Urates as a paste.

Many very different things could account for these overall symptoms.

The Birds appear to be in a stupor or intoxicated.


Various Food Poisonings could do this...


Not enough to make a decision on, other than, if we do not find anything more to go on, we could pick an Antibiotic, and, get them going on that, and see if it makes for any improvement.


Have you chewed and tasted the feed?



Phil
Lv


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

yes i have tasted the feed and it tastes normal,i always pop some in my mouth for some weird reason,other than being dusty its normal,what about the head shakes and the staring eyes,could that be a number of issues or just pmv,will they come out of it on their own.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If you can get your Nose right into their open Beak ( hold a Beak open ) does their Breath have any odor?


Also, if you can, getting your Nose as close to it as you can, does their poops/urates have any odor?



Phil
Lv


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

onestop2050 said:


> hello,i noticed that one of my pigeons was moving his head in a very funny way,side to side and in a twisting fashion some times,in the past few days i noticed 2 other birds acting the same way,they dont fly and wont eat or drink,and sometimes they go around in circles,what shoul i do,i have never had this problem until now,should i seperate the sick ones,could someone please give me some advise.thank you


call foys pigeons andget 3 on 1, they are infected with worms and is affecting their nervous systems, 3 0n 1 is afor coccidiosis, canker and all worms, treat all birds at once and overnight product, is 24.95 plus shipping, also get all birds out and clean and desinfect with water bleach, let dry before putting birds back in, and u may have to feed those birds by syringe, check their crops to see if fod is passing, if they get real bad, put them down, u have 4 days to 5 before they die, if not treated, the twitching i have seem before, is a worm


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

u can also get some antiobiotics to be in the safe side, be sure u treat all birds and not just the sick ones


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jeo73 said:


> call foys pigeons and*get 3 on 1, they are infected with worms and is affecting their nervous systems, 3 0n 1 is afor coccidiosis, canker and all worms, *treat all birds at once and overnight product, is 24.95 plus shipping, also get all birds out and clean and desinfect with water bleach, let dry before putting birds back in, and u may have to feed those birds by syringe, check their crops to see if fod is passing, if they get real bad, put them down, *u have 4 days to 5 before they die, if not treated, the twitching i have seem before, is a worm*




It has not been established that worms are causing this illness. Worms CAN cause like symptoms, that is true. But other things can cause the same symptoms. Also I don't think the 3 in 1's or 4 in 1's are as effective as getting one medicine for one thing. They don't usually have enough of the medicine that you need in them. It is split up too much with the 3 or 4 different meds to really be affective.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



I forget...do you have a friendlt Vet who could do a fast Microscope evaluation/analysis of some poop samples you could bring to him or her?


This would really help, in that it could decide if there are Worms, Coccidia, or other inimicals present.

Also, a Blood Test looking for cues also would be good to get, if you could.


Can you get these things?


Phil
Lv


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

*Oh Boy !*



John_D said:


> Hi AllAroundAnimal
> 
> As Charis and Phil and Jay3 have said - if a bird is sick and needs medication, then it should be provided. Anyone who has a pigeon in their care - fancier, rescuer or 'pet owner' - should take what steps they can to get the illness identified, and then follow the appropriate treatment.
> 
> ...


 Now read This Carefully - Like I stated Before " MY BELIEF " Is That pigeons will fight off sickness themselves as they do in the Wild and have been doing so for many - many years .... I have seen and heard of people medicating and the Bird or Birds still passing on - Over and over again people do this and to NO eval -- My Belief is to try to help them by 1st seperating them from the others - keep them in fresh air , hydrated and fed and to try home remedy's ( Google some ) and if it don't work so be it -- thats nature and only the strong survive -- Not saying I am A genius or this is the route they should go -- Its just what I have always done - and i have never lost a bird to sickness or disease although I have Had Sick birds that Recovered and Built their own Immunes to these sickness's -- Its just what i believe in and I am sticking to it - I believe just like Humans we all get sick and if we let our bodies fight it off we make ourselves stronger --- but this Post is a never ending battle because there has been many like them before -- and they go Nowhere ,Why ? Because everyone has their own Beliefs ! Peace !


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

TREATING A SICK PIGEON 
The following is intended as assistance towards problem recognition through elimination of possibilities until arriving at the most probable cause of illness and diagnosis - a ‘Layman’s’ directory! 
Many pigeon ailments have similar symptoms and yet are completely different in their nature and severity. Most common pigeon ailments are equilibrium unbalance problems; that is to say that they are stress related. The bacteria live permanently in balance within the body until something reduces the individuals vitality and the natural balance becomes upset.
A sick pigeon will fluff out it’s feathers as if it is cold. The patient hides perhaps under a park bench or in a doorway, and is seen on the ground at dusk when its fellows have flown up high to roost. The droppings may appear green and watery, and signs of bullying injuries by other birds may be visible around the head. An injured pigeon may be in shock, limping badly, drooping a wing or bleeding.
Pigeons suffer from a variety of ailments peculiar to themselves, the most common being the Paramyxo virus and throat canker. The virus causes birds to appear fluffed up, unbalanced or dizzy. They may walk in circles, throw seeds in the air when eating, hang their heads or have fits. No veterinary treatment is available as far as we know but the patient almost always recovers after a lengthy period of rest and care. However, he or she must be kept separate from other birds for at least 6 weeks

**** Hope This Helps ****


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AllAroundAnimal, 



As for how I see it -


Healthy Creatures of any Species do not get sick.


If a Creature is sick, it is because they were not healthy, and, sickness may yes or no be recovered from without intervention, in many cases, depending on conditions outside of out wits to define or predict or to rely on.

Diminished Immune systems occasion secondary conditions which for being un-healthy, can eventuate into any number of possible dis-eases or illnesses.


As a gesture of kindness to others, some individual Creatures will provide care and or special suppliments or Medicines of whatever sort, to aid the individuals who are sick.

Once recovered, once adequately nourished, once acquiring Health, a Healthy individual of whatever Species, does not become sick or ill.


This is the basis of understanding on which medicine, or, intervention, may be premised.


Spontaneous remission of symtoms can and does happen, without intervention, or with it, either way.


Where does this leave us?


As for me, it leaves me with the same premis I started with.

Gestures of kindness and affection, to aid individual Birds in the ameleoration or correction of conditions characterized by the terms illness or injury, within my skills, according to my Lights...with respect to them and their conditions.


If my interest were to stand aside and 'Let Nature take it's Course', I would have no reason to be on this Forum, and no reason to care for and raise fallen Babys, nor to be involved in aiding ill or injured Birds...and no reason to be trying to help others who are trying to aid sick or injured Birds or who wish to care for and raise fallen Babys.


As for trying to distinguish 'Home Remedies' as 'good' ( who's 'Home Remedies'? ) and recognised Medicines or Pharmaceuticals as 'bad', I think the assertion would need a lot more thoroughness and detail to lay out the continuity which connects the two, and or to say just where and why a line is to be drawn.


What 'Home Remedies' can you describe for us to consider?



Phil
Lv


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Well Put , Can't Argue That ! What I find Best about This entire Topic .... Nobody once said Cull The Birds and I am very happy about that As I feel It Is Cruel and Should Be Illegal - and Punishable to the fullest extent , and i am sure i will have Disagreeers on that Topic also - but once again " My Beliefs " !!!!!!! ( Aren't They an Animal , isn't there a law Called " Cruelty to Animals " ? ) .... and after reading this post i do feel now we interviened by raising the birds " maybe " we should Intervien to help them also --- so at least i am learning and swaying my thinking a bit - Thank You ! Peace , Mike


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Onestop2050 , How are The Birds Today ? keep us updated and If anything these birds and you have taught me some things - because with out these sick birds we wouldn't have never had this Topic and without you bringing it up we wouldn't have ever known -- lets hope these guys pull thru this - keep us updated on what meds or not and what else you are doing for them and how they are coming along - I am hoping for the best for you and your birds - Peace !


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hello folks, my birds are not doing any bettter,i noticed that one of them is twisting his head all the way around and is looking straight up,i also noticed a couple of more birds starting to do the same thing,i dont know what to do.i dont have any meds to give them and nobody has recommended anything,i hate what i am seeying,i am afraid all my birds will be infected and die,my next step is to gut the loft and clean it real good,i have seen that they are trying to eat but the heads keep shaking and the eyes look very funny,but some of the poops are looking better,i will post some pics up in a few moments,anything in particular i should take pics of??also i started putting apple vinegar in the water maybe it will help.thanks again please let me know if you recommend anything.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



You need to segregate each individual Pigeon into their own comfortable 'Box' of some kind.

Have the Boxes indoors, on some long folding-Tables or something so they are about table top high or a little higher. Out of any drafts, dim quiet surrounds.


You need to start a chart for each one.


You need to monitor who is self feeding well enough, and who is not, and, hand feed the ones who are not.

So long as an individual is pooping well, processing and digesting well, they can be allowed to eat, or, be hand fed if need be.


Box can be any ample enough size Cardboard Box for the Bird to turn around in and have a little roomn for themself, with Look-Out Holes cut at Eye level all around the sides, line the bottom with white Paper Towels.

Change Paper Towels each day.


Twist Tie a tallish Coffee Cup for Water into a corner, even elevating it on something so it is an inch or so higher that way...seed Bowl or Seed Cup in the opposite Corner.


Probably this is 'PPMV'...for which there are no remedial Medications.


All one can do is to give deferential supportive Care, and closely monitor each individual, keeping a Chart for each one, on how each day is going.


Supplimental Vitamins and Minerals or Tonics or anything nourishing to their Immune System, might be helpful.


Secondary illnesses can also occur, and, these may be more difficult to notice because of the PPMV symptoms.


So keep an eye on all details, monitor the poops often...keep Charts for each individual in his Box.


Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi onestop ..

Does seem more and more like PMV. The poops do often normalize after a short time, and they get some food in them.

Phil has nailed down the treatment for that illness pretty much. Do check the water, as one problem with this can be the kidneys being affected, and they drink a lot more water than is normal and can dehydrate quicker than a healthy bird.

As Phil has said, there's no medication for PMV as such - it is a viral infection.

If you have other birds who do not show any signs in the next day or two, advise vaccinating.

I had three here at one time and for a while had to hand feed them (thawed out peas and corn from the freezer in my case) twice a day to supplement their difficult attempts at self feeding.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Some, can manage to peck alright if they are gently held on a Towel on one's Lap as one sits, small light cloth draped over them so it covers their Head and ends there, so they can see 'out' but not to the sides or above, and, one cups a hand over their Head,and softly steadies it, to limit the extra movements...so they can Peck their Seeds only needing to reach an inch or even less, into the Seed Bowl or Cup.

They usually understand this gesture of support quickly, and appreciate it being done...and can catch up on their eating then, getting a full enough Crop in ten or fifteen minutes.


Mild ACV-Water for drinking...


Anyone too wangley, will likely need their Head steadied to drink also, so this can be done a few times a day, as one checks on each individual.


And as John mentions, good Hydration is especially important for them now...so make sure everyone is drinking well and drinking enough, providing aid or support if need be, for them to do it.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i just found a couple of more birds in my loft doing the same thing,by the time i put them in boxes or something the whole gang would have been infected,i just cleaned their loft and i found bugs on the ground eating the feed,i dont know what to do .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

With 30 birds, that could be a full time job. 

What would happen if you vaccinated a bird that wasn't showing symptoms yet, but he had the virus? Would it hurt him?


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

thats a good question,should i try and get the vaccine and inject the whole gang that is not infected yet?? someone please advise me what to do,i am worried to death.i cannot take care of all the birds the ones i am keeping inside are a job on their own.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

You're right Jay3, it is one heck of a job dealing with it when you got a load of birds. We had to do 50 of them at one go, and there were three of us at it.

Vaccination with an inactive virus vaccine like 'Colombovac' is considered safe for non-symptomatic birds. Even read an idea somewhere that it can cut short the symptoms when they already have them - but I certainly wouldn't risk that without well documented studies. As I understand it, the 'live' vaccine is dangerous (and not particularly effective) - believe that's 'LaSota'?

But at the rate they are getting this, once known cases are separated from the rest, at least a couple of days without new recognizable cases needs to elapse.

Onestop - those bugs could be grain weevils. Are they very small and slim? If examined through a magnifying glass they show a long snout-like appendage. If so, they burrow into corn and such to lay eggs, and unfortunately are found in feed if it's been around a while or was not well packed or stored.

Phil's view of individual isolation is the ideal for your birds, but it's sounding like it may just not be possible for you. But, you must keep the sick ones separated from those who do not yet show any signs, in as small groups as you can manage.

PMV is not in itself usually fatal - it would be lack of food, insufficient water or chance infections that generally result in death.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It is difficult logistically to isolate and monitor each symptomatic individual.

If one does not, it immediately becomes too hard to tell who is managing alright, and who is not, or who needs help eating or drinking, untill it is too late, then, deaths may be mis-attributed to the illness, instead of to the subsequent starvation or dehydration or secondary illnesses, which one then has no way to monitor or pay attention to or manage.


PPMV can incubate for weeks before symptoms occur.


So, in a Loft, once unambiguous symptoms are occuring, it is safe to assume all are exposed, and, all will be infected according to their incubation period elapsing.


Not everyone will have symptoms...not everyone will have the same symptoms...or same severity of symptoms.


So long as all the Pigeons are six months or so of age and older, and overall fairly robust, probably there will be few to even no deaths resulting from the Illness itself.

Some may merely seem a little off or subdued or quiet, and or also be making watery urates.


Others may have the Neurological issues, to one degree or severity or other...and be making picture perfect poops and urates.


Of these, some will get over it with no legacy...others with some legacy.


Like that...


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

should i get the vaccine and try that,will that cut the chances of the other one getting it,yes them look like the bugs you mentioned,will this do harm my birds,thats the stuff i started getting from rural king recently,could u please tell me what will happen if i get the vaccine for the ones not infected??


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This probably sounds like a stupid question, but how does PMV get started in a loft where the birds don't mix with other birds? Where does it come from, if not from an infected bird?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

onestop2050 said:


> should i get the vaccine and try that,will that cut the chances of the other one getting it,yes them look like the bugs you mentioned,will this do harm my birds,thats the stuff i started getting from rural king recently,could u please tell me what will happen if i get the vaccine for the ones not infected??



I do not know anything about any of the Vaccines, to be able to say.


Usually they would be used pre-emptively, rather than once symptoms are occuring, but, maybe call Foys or Jedds or Siegals and ask them.



Grain Weevils are harmless to Pigeons, but, they do harm the Grain, and, once a Kernal of any sort of Seed or Grain is eaten into or through, the Seed or Grain which is damaged slowly becomes rancid by exposure to Air, loosing much of it's nutritional value, and contributing molecules which impede assimilation of Nutrients.

You could maybe try putting the Grain into seperate smaller Bags, freezing those one or two at a time over night, then keeping the Grain in a large Rubber Maid or similar Tight Snap-Lid Plastic Bucket, so it can stay safe from there on.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

does anyone know of a vet that deals in birds in the st louis missouri area,what would a check up by a vet cost for 1 bird, if anyone knows i would be willing to take one there,i beleive in the next few days alot more will be showing the signs so now would be a good time to do something about it,i will not get that cheap food anymore,where does this disease come from?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,


PPMV is Pigeon Paramixovirus..and there are several kinds...and they all do pretty much similar things.


All of which are a sub set of New Castle Disease Virus.


Many species of Birds can get or transmit these, and they are very contageous to or among Birds, but do not bother anyone else.

Anyway, being a Virus, the PPMV can effect different interior systems or organs of the Bird's Body, and might effect one Bird one way, and another Bird another way...or might not hardly effect some individuals at all.


Huge giant hassle for you, I know...

I have had this same thing happen here with my Birds, and it is a pretty rough deal for the care giver, as well as rough on the Birds.

When we were thinking the illness might be a Bacterial kind, a visit to a Vet for a fecal analysis/evaluation would have been good.


For this, if it is PPMV, ( and it seems like it is ) there is nothing a Vet could offer, but, to charge you a bunch of dough and send you on your way with a whole lot of nothing for your trouble.



There are no easy or cheap tests to positively determine if a Bird has PPMV, the diagnosis is usually arrived at by experience and evaluating the symptoms.


Because it is very contageous, any Bird who has it in the so called shedding phase, or contageous phase, who might not even have any symptoms yet, can transmit it to other Birds pretty much by just being near them, let alone, poops falling onto Seeds which others eat and peck, dander, a sneeze, drinking from a common Water Bowl or other.


Make sure any one visiting you who has Birds, is very careful to wash off their shoes, Shoe soles, wash their hands well, and appreciates how contageous it is or can be, so they do not accidently bring it home with them.

Even normal whisps of Bird Feather Dander is said to be able to transmit it, so clothing is questionable also, if visiting or working with PPMV Birds...then going form that to some situation of other Birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> This probably sounds like a stupid question, but how does PMV get started in a loft where the birds don't mix with other birds? Where does it come from, if not from an infected bird?



A wild Bird pooping as they fly over, if the poop lands in the Loft...where it gets stepped on and tracked around, gets on fallen Seeds others will peck...gets in the Water Bowl.

Mosquito, maybe could do it also, if biting an infected Bird, then biting another Bird soon enough.


Probably the Virus can not live very long outside the Body, but, in minute amounts of liquid or in humid climes, it could last a few hours maybe.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hello folks, would it be possible for other birds in my loft not to be affected by the virus or are they going to be infected as well and only a matter of time,i am in the process of completly cleaning and disinfecting the whole loft and everything in it,i have a couple of birds that love so much and it will kill me to see them like that so i have been keeping them seperate but they go outside every day and keep worriying about them.thank you


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

I Believe with time They will be Fine -- also I am the one that had discussions on not medically treating birds - if you don't recall ...... I was also asked what some good remedy's are if not with medicine -- Start off with like i said before the Aplle Cider Vinegar - 2 teaspoons per 2 gallons -- every other day , and if they are eating add some Granulated Garlic to their food , and only give them the smaller seeds -- garlic is a natural heeling agent for bacteria --- try this it can't hurt anything -- and its alot cheaper than an avion vet believe me -- i am just happy that you are this carring about these birds as most would have just Culled ( killed ) the birds without giving them any chance -- so give them time it can take up to 6 weeks but i believe they would have gotten worse or died by now so with time and a bit of help they should be fine , Keep us updated and if you and others disagree - then don't try it , bring them to a vet and spend more on the vet than what you could have bought new birds for ! Good Luck, Peace !


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

onestop2050 said:


> hello folks, would it be possible for other birds in my loft not to be affected by the virus or are they going to be infected as well and only a matter of time,i am in the process of completly cleaning and disinfecting the whole loft and everything in it,i have a couple of birds that love so much and it will kill me to see them like that so i have been keeping them seperate but they go outside every day and keep worriying about them.thank you



They have all been exposed.

There is an incubation period of some weeks, where the Bird for having contracted the Virus, is none-the-less, pre-symptomatic and potentially, if not actually, contageous.


I would assume all of the Bird have the Virus, even if possibly some do not.

All would be presumed to have contracted it, and, to be contageous presently.


Of those who have the Virus, not all will show conspicuous symptoms.


Some will shrug it off without being effected hardly at all.

Others will be effected mildly.

Some will be more effected.

Some may perish, but, maybe none will perish.

Usually it is hardest on the very young 'Peepers', the young 'Squeakers' still in the Nest, or fledgling age ones.
, or older adults already in poor health.

The Virus may have entered your Loft three or four weeks ago.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Absolutely, as allaroundanimal reminds - 


Finely minced fresh raw Garlic, set some out in a dish, and if they will eat it, it is definitely a good thing for them.


If they do not eat it that way, try putting it in with their Seeds, and have the Seeds in small Bowls...instead of scattering.


Keep the floors 'clean' if possible.




ACV-Water, likewise...but must be plastic or glass Bowls.


B-Vitamin complex...( the people 'Horse Choker' Capsules, open one up, pour out the powder ).

Purple Dulce powder...( a sea weed people eat, has Natural Iodine, which Pigeons need and usually never get ).

Lecithin granules...( also supports the Thyroid, which then supports the Immune system).

Anything rich in antioxidants, like say dried 'Goji Berries'.


Powdered dried Mushrooms, especially odd kinds from the Orient ( any small Coffee Grinder, you can make them or anything else which is dried, into powder).


Lightly 'glisten' the Seeds with some fresh Olive Oil...add the powders to the Seeds, and the powders stick to the Seeds, making it easy for the Pigeons to eat it then.


I even took 'Kimk Chee', put a quart of it into a Blender, made puree, and added a pint of puree and juice to each of the Gallon Waterers...everyone liked it.
..and I think it helped, too. ( When I had the PPMV going on here ).

Chickens and Ducks in Asia, who were fed Kim Chee, did not get H5N1.


Different than PPMV, but, what the heck, it is good for them, and it nourishes their immune system...and helps clense toxins.


All or any of these are well worth doing.


Good stuff for Pigeons! Or most any other Birds.


If I had a Kestral, by golly I'd get him onto eating Kim Chee!! ( as well as his natural diet, of course...)


Lol...




Good for us too...



Phil
Lv


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Hey Theres alot of good things on that chart you mentioned pdpbison - can you save this chart that you just put up with all the goods so people can look back at when / If needed ? lots of things i myself wouldn't have known -- Thanks For the Information ! gotta love this - always room to learn !


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

onestop2050 you better change your name to manystops2050 because this has been many stops for us all and one heck of a topic - now lets just hope we can top it all off by saving these birds !


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> This probably sounds like a stupid question, but how does PMV get started in a loft where the birds don't mix with other birds? Where does it come from, if not from an infected bird?


In this particular case, onestop said 



> ... i beleive i had a outside pigeon in my loft about 1 week ago and he excaped 1 or 2 days later when i let them out,he looked odd but i could not tell if he was sick and he never came back


No way we will ever know, but that seems a pretty good possibility.

In general, though, mosquitos can be a factor, and the virus can actually survive surprisingly long in the immediate environment of infection (bedding, cage bottoms, race baskets, loft flooring) and be tracked into a 'clean' loft on footwear - pretty much lke flu virus being transferred via undisinfected surfaces

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A Week would be pretty fast, maybe improbably fast, for a non-symptomatic flight-able carrier 'Guest' Pigeon, to have infected a Loft now showing sumptoms for several days already...I think...

More likely, the introduction of the Virus to the Loft was quite some ways previous.


Even stepping on an infected poop out doors, while walking to the Loft, and carrying traces of it in on one's Shoe Soles...could do it...

It's just very contageous...


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

get some poop samples in 2 zippler bags and send it to foys pigeons for analisys, is 25 dollars, call them and tell them u have an emergency and send it fast, them they will tell u, whats wrong with them, and the meds u need,


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

by the way, u r gonna need to scrape everything, scoop it all inside a bag, them keep scraping, get a bottle of bleach water, spray heavy, get birds out, of course, them let dry and put birds back in, iam in sedalia, mo, send me a private message with ur number so we can talk


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

u also may have to feed them by hand 1 by 1, if they stop eating, and ur gonna need pediality, i dont know the spelling, be aware once u open a bottle of pedyalite, it goes bad after is open.also u might have to mix baby formula with warm milk and honey to feed them


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

it could be mosquitoes, not likely do, it could be another pigeon, probably a feral, they are kind of more resistant to the virus than normal loft pigeons, it could be that u stepped on poop somewhere, be sure the shoes u use to enter the loft are just for that, dont walk on streets with those. it could be airborne, it could be the food, change feed and containers to new ones, clean the nest real good, and corners, after is all done, get some clean, dry straw, no dust on it and lay it down,heavy, so poop wont reach the floor and change it, every 5 days with clean one, untill pigeons recover, be aware after they recover, u r gonna have to clean again, is a pain, i know, but residual virus will be coming out of them.


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

ur gonna need strong multivitamins alsolet lots of sun coming inside the loft if possible, if not, open the windows, they need to be worm, if it gets cold,u may need a heat lamp


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jeo73 said:


> ur gonna need strong multivitamins alsolet lots of sun coming inside the loft if possible, if not, open the windows, they need to be worm, if it gets cold,u may need a heat lamp



you can put more of your opinions in ONE single post to cut down on the number of posts in the thread... so try to think of all the "stuff" your thinking and then type all at once.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hello and thank you for replies and well wishes, my birds are still the same,i dont know if they are getting better but they dont look any worse,i did not see any more birds today that are sick just the same ones,and i found a young one dead maybe a month old,i did a super job of cleaning and disinfecting the loft,it was pretty dirty,so it couldnt hurt them,i started giving them garlic and vitamins aswell,maybe i will get lucky,any more info would be greatly appreciated.thanks again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



Well, this may be the 'plateau' then.


Keep watchful for any cues of anyone not eating, or anyone pooping 'Bile', or any 'yellowish' Urates, or any Crops not passing well.


If any of this, let us know.



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i just noticed that the 3 birds i have in the cage are moving around in circles,they were standing still at first looking down and shaking their heads,i hope that they are not getting worse


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I like the advice everyone has offered..and I agree with most of it.

I would definitely give the birds the diluted ACV (teaspoon to 1 gallon mix) daily. 

I would puree fresh raw garlic with water until its "milky white" and add a splash (teaspoon)to the water with the ACV. 

I would also just give everyone of the birds a Amoxicillian tablet (250mg) and I would buy some small "wild bird seed"..it is easier for the birds to digest then pre-mixed pigeon feed. 

Also I do believe your birds have PMV..but like it has been said they can over come this with some help. The garlic "juice" and the Amoxycillian should help fight any bacterial infections..

The spraying of your loft with bleach water with the cleaning of all the birds feeders, waterer's and grit containers should help prevent re-infection. 

Also the switching to small seeds "wild songbird mix" has a twofold purpose. If the feed you bought is bad it will stop recontamination..and it is easier for the birds to digest. 

I believe if you do all these things your flock should recover..Like it has been said already there is no cure for PMV only prevention..but taking these steps should help give your birds a fighting chance. Good luck.

After thought: Also if you feel your birds are having a hard time with the pigeon seed...you can let them eat Rabbit Pellets. It is a complete nutrition food made from alfalfa...I read this tip for giving birds "greens" in their diet but in this case it maybe even easier for your birds to digest then seeds.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hello all,the birds in the cage seem like the symptoms are getting worse,they seem to have real bad headshake and turning in circles,i had to hand feed a little one cause it seems like hes just drinking,i am hoping for the best,cause i love em,this is renegade he was up in the loft with the infected ones but he shown no symptoms of anything all he wants to do is play,i brought him downstairs with me and he is loving it,he is like 9 months old,i will keep everyone posted,let me know what you think of him?? thank you family


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi onestopshop,



Regagade is beautiful.


I think jAxTecH makes a good point on the Seed - just toss the old stuff, and get some kind of small whole Seeds for now, maybe even Canary Mix or Finch Mix.

Some kinds of Wild Bird Mix might be alright, but, at leat my Pigeons here are not fond of all the Milo it tends to have.


Anyway, the ones who are now starting to show restless forms of the neurological symptoms...you will just have to see how this goes, and, or also work with the ones like I had earlier described ( do you remember the Post? I forget now where it was in all these pages, ) for steadying their Head for them to peck.


Towel across lap...sitting, Pigeon on Towel, light Cloth draped over Pigeon, so he only has the open end to look out of...left hand cupped softly over the cloth which is over his head...right hand steadying a Seed Cup in front of him...

Steady his Head so he only has to move his Head down an inch to peck.


This way he can peck and get a good meal, and it is a lot easier than having to hand feed.



Phil
Lv


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Renegade is very pretty. I hope the rest of your birds stay well.


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## jeo73 (Aug 1, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> It has not been established that worms are causing this illness. Worms CAN cause like symptoms, that is true. But other things can cause the same symptoms. Also I don't think the 3 in 1's or 4 in 1's are as effective as getting one medicine for one thing. They don't usually have enough of the medicine that you need in them. It is split up too much with the 3 or 4 different meds to really be affective.


thats why i said, send poop for analysis to foy s, them he will know for sure, unless u can do better, thats the best he can do


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

jeo73 said:


> thats why i said, send poop for analysis to foy s, them he will know for sure, unless u can do better, thats the best he can do


Having the poop checked is usually a good idea, but to your local vet is better then sending it farther. You get better results. Worms and some other things don't always show up in a poop sample, so sometimes they could have something and it just wasn't in that sample. And some things you won't find that way.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Getting a fecal Float done 'in house', with a friendly competent Vet, is often a very good idea.


Finding a friendly, competent, sensibly priced, does it themself Vet, is another matter.


Fecal Float when sensibly priced, might be like $25.00 to $40.00.

But, to get that, usually one also has to pay for a 'visit' and an exam, so, add another $45.00 to $85.00...


etc...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Once you have established a relationship with a vet, they don't require you to bring the bird in to do poops. It's a good thing to get to know one.


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

i dont know any vet,but if i can get a poop sample done for the 25-40 dollar range i would be willing to,i just noticed my birds in the cage have the head down lower than before,should i send it to foys,would they tell me what the problem is??


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

sorry forgot to ask but is it possible that some infected birds show no symptoms and just be allright and not get sick,considering that they are probably all infected? thank you


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Start at the beginning, re-read your Thread.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

onestop2050 said:


> i dont know any vet,but if i can get a poop sample done for the 25-40 dollar range i would be willing to,i just noticed my birds in the cage have the head down lower than before,should i send it to foys,would they tell me what the problem is??


You can't always tell from a poop sample. All they can do is tell you what is in it. If it doesn't show worms, they could still have worms. And sometimes they need to do blood work to find out what is wrong. They might find some bacteria, but there could still be other things going on with the bird. It helps, but doesn't answer everything.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I am no veterinarian nor do I pretend to be..I am only asking because I am curious. 

If it floats like duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck..why would you not think it is a duck? 

Twisty head syndrome, shakes, watery stools, "going light", are these not all classic symptoms of the PMV virus?

I am not arguing with anyone just would like to know why not accept that is PMV and work from there? 

What could spending the money on a fecal exam to confirm this prove?

What other common sickness can spread through a flock like wild fire has all these symptoms in common with Paramyoxovirus?

I found this info about PMV:

Sujet: PMV pigeons Lun 1 Fév - 2:33 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PIGEON
PARAMYXOVIRUS (PPMV OR PMV - Please remember
that whenever you take in a sick pigeon it is vital that you warm it up
before feeding or giving water and that you rehydrate it before
feeding. All fluids should be warmed to 39 degrees centigrade.

PIGEON PARAMYXOVIRUS
is a viral disease that does not affect man or animals, but a human
that handles a pigeon with PMV or the live vaccine can develop
conjunctivitis if sensible precautions are not taken (eg, do not touch
your eyes immediately after handling a pigeon with PMV or the live
vaccine).

Incubation period can vary from a few days to several weeks.It is most often of moderate virulence with 5% to 10% mortality, but rarely highly virulent strains can cause 90% mortality
Mortality rates are significantly higher if supportive care is not given (eg. when the virus is injected experimentally in a laboratory).
Water deprivation and stress increase mortality.Spontaneous recovery within 6 - 12 weeks is common, but recovery can take longer.Nervous symptoms can persist for life or return in times of stress.Some pigeons will suffer from persistent diarrhoea after recovery.
SYMPTOMS:

Diarrhoea is often the first symptom, but feral pigeons will not often
come to the attention of a rescuer until the nervous signs appear. Not
all symptoms will be present at the same time. All symptoms are
aggravated by excitement.

The most common symptoms seen by the rescuer will be:

Thin broken solid droppings in a pool of liquid
Fine tremor of eyes or head
Staggering
Somersaulting in flightCrash landing
Difficulty picking up seed, pecking and missing
Tossing seed backwardsTwisting neck, head upside down (torticollis, star gazing)
Paralysis of legs or wings
Spiralling in flight
Flying backwards
Turning in circles
Suddenly dropping off to sleep, head slumped forwards (zonking out!)

HOUSING

During the recovery period keep pigeons with Pigeon PMV in a
quiet, warm (not hot) cage with soft flooring away from any intense
light source.Towelling is ideal for flooring as they can damage their feathering if they have fits.Provide a brick for perching.

FEEDING AND WATERING

Place seed in a deep dish so that if they stab at random they can pick seed up.Because
Pigeon PMV can cause fits pigeons are at risk of drowning but they need
free access to water. Provide water (with added electrolytes if
possible) in a deep narrow container to minimise the risk of accidental
drowning. Watch the pigeon to ensure it is drinking.Hand
feeding may be necessary. If feeding by gavage tube is not an option
the pigeon’s mouth has to be opened and the food pushed to the back of
throat. Suitable foods that can be fed this way include pellets of egg
food paste dipped in water and soaked dog biscuits.Weigh the
pigeon daily and carry out a poop count to ensure that he is getting
enough food. As a guideline: a healthy pigeon will pass between 20 and
30 raisin sized poops a day.

NURSING CARE

Supportive care is usually sufficient.Resistance to
other diseases such as coccidiosis, trichomoniasis and aspergillosis is
reduced. Avoid conditions that could aggravate these conditions
(stress, damp etc), watch out for symptoms and provide prompt treatment
if symptoms appear.The disease runs its course in about 6
weeks, by that time the pigeon has stopped shedding the virus and won't
infect other pigeons but nervous symptoms and gastro-intestinal may
persist longer.Vitamins should be given to boost the immune system.Probiotics can be used to crowd out any bad “gut” bacteria.Electrolytes can be given to replace the electrolytes lost through polyuria.I
have found that providing a calcium supplement on arrival (Gem Calcium
Syrup with Vitamin D3) has helped. The dose I gave was two drops a day
for 3 days.Do not use antibiotics without consulting a vet. They can intensify the lesions and aggravate the course of the disease.

SOME USEFUL HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES

I have had some success treating the paralysis/stroke symptoms
of Pigeon PMV using the homeopathic remedy Conium Maculatum (common
hemlock) dosing with a single tablet of the 30 potency three times a
day for up to 10 days.Birds that tremble and fall over when
they try to move because their balance is impaired may benefit from
Argenitum Nit 30 potency, one tablet given 3 or 4times a day for up to
2 days.Belladonna can be used for birds that are restless with convulsive movement and jerking limbs. 2 pilules twice a day.

Remember not to touch homeopathic pilules with your hands, this
can contaminate them and reduce effectiveness, give them on a “clean
mouth” (no food or additions to the drinking water 20 minutes before or
20 minutes after) and stop the remedy as soon as an improvement shows

HYGIENE

Pigeon PMV is highly infectious to other pigeons , victims should be kept isolated from other birds for at least 6 weeks.Maintain scrupulous hygiene , regularly disinfecting food and water containers with bleach.Always
see to a pigeon with Pigeon PMV after you have treated your other
birds. That reduces the risk of carrying the infection to other birds
in your care.Wash hands after contact and take care not to track fecal waste or carry fecal dust to areas where other birds are.Some
rescuers keep a clean overall and shoes just inside the isolation area,
to put on while caring for Pigeon PMV sufferers and remove when leaving
the area.Dispose of droppings wisely, they can be a source of infection to feral pigeons.

PREVENTION AND CONTROL

In a loft situation it is important to vaccinate pigeons against Pigeon PMV. 

Remember that it is the pigeon that is not showing any symptoms of
Pigeon PMV but is shedding the virus that is the greatest danger to
other pigeons. By the time the obvious symptoms appear the virus could
have infected other pigeons in your care. Always isolate new pigeons.
They can be vaccinated if they show no signs of the disease after 10
days in quarantine.


Hope this helps


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Fecal or other clinical exams, can not decisively find or determine PPMV.


All they can do, is find findings to say something is not inconsistent with it.


It is a Virus...the quasi-organism is too small for be found or seen in any samples of anything.


Other things can do somewhat similar syndromes.

But, all in all, this 'seems' like PPMV to me anyway...


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

jAxTecH said:


> I am no veterinarian nor do I pretend to be..I am only asking because I am curious. If it floats like duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck..why would you not think it is a duck? Twisty head syndrome, shakes, watery stools, "going light", are these not all classic symptoms of the PMV virus? I am not arguing with anyone just would like to know why not accept that is PMV and work from there? What could spending the money on a fecal exam to confirm this prove? What other common sickness can spread through a flock like wild fire has all these symptoms in common with Paramyoxovirus?
> 
> I found this info about PMV:
> 
> ........................


Hi jAxTecH

Yep, getting a poop sample analysed may show a high level of Coccidia (due to the stress of being sick) or the presence of worms, for instance, but it would need a blood sample analysed to identify PMV antibodies - and the _combination_ of symptoms says PMV anyway. May as well just give the pigeon an Appertex (or similar) for Cocci and a wormer, without the expense of tests, if one is concerned the bird may have these common problems too.

(BTW - that PMV info, wherever you found it, actually comes from our PT 'Resources' section and in turn originated in that form from one of our members  )

Other comments:

One misunderstanding we seem to have got earlier is that worms can cause the PMV-like symptoms. Pigeon worms don't. 

One of our members found a report of a pigeon ingesting raccoon roundworm eggs, which then became larvae and 'migrated' to the brain through the circulatory system. They cause symptoms of which some might be confused with PMV. They are - last I read - not detectable in live birds, not treatable (certainly not with wormers) and eventually cause death. There's a couple of documented instances with pigeons, more on wild parrots and the CDC has studies on them affecting humans.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi jAxTecH,



Good info there.

I did not see it earlier when I replied.


Good read.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

John_D said:


> Hi jAxTecH
> 
> (BTW - that PMV info, wherever you found it, actually comes from our PT 'Resources' section and in turn originated in that form from one of our members  )
> 
> John


I Googled it... Was near the top of the search engine results. 

I hate to side track this thread but this kinda of goes along with the topic. 

Can anyone explain the proper place on a pigeon to inject them with the PMV-1 Vaccine. I am thinking I better vaccinate my birds now to be on the safe side. 

As far as locations for injection..I have read of the back of the neck but this is dangerous because you can hit a nerve...expecially if the bird moves. 

I have also read about the "inside" of the birds thigh ..but then I thought about how close that is to the birds air sac vents. 

Basically where is the recommended injection spot for the PMV-1 Vaccine? 


Also do I need to buy a new needle tip for every injection? or is cleaning the needles with alcohol enough in between birds? 

Third if I buy 100 dose bottle of Vaccine and make up 10 ea 10cc syringes and put what I don't use in a zip lock bag in my refrigerator how long will they keep good for? 

Moderators: Please move this if this should be a new thread or not if it is relevant to this topic..


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## onestop2050 (May 7, 2009)

hi everyone,just wondering is it possible that some of my birds that are in the loft be infected but not get sick? is this possible,and just shake it off?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

onestop2050 said:


> hi everyone,just wondering is it possible that some of my birds that are in the loft be infected but not get sick? is this possible,and just shake it off?


Hi

It is possible for birds to be infected with PMV but not display any recognizable symptoms. They could, however, be carriers of PMV to other 'clean' birds until such time as the virus had run its course.

The general view is that a bird should be quarantined for a minimum of 6 weeks from the time it starts to show definite symptoms, though we would normally allow a good 8 weeks to be safe. 

If a bird is not showing any symptoms, then (a) without a blood test we cannot know if it has PMV anyway (b) if it _did_ prove to have PMV then how long before it stops 'shedding' the virus would be guesswork.

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi jAxTecH

When we vaccinated our birds, we had it so one person held the bird while the other pinched up the skin at the back of the neck and injected. Not tried it on any other part of a bird.

We did use a fresh needle for each bird. Not sure about washing a syringe between birds - I would not, so that no 'foreign substance' including the alcohol could adhere to the needle (but that's JMO).

I seem to recall that the advice was to use it within 24 hrs once opened, but I could be mistaken. We used Colombovac (I see they actually recommend the back of the neck)

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

onestop2050 said:


> hi everyone,just wondering is it possible that some of my birds that are in the loft be infected but not get sick? is this possible,and just shake it off?



Hi onestopshop, 


Meant friendly -

Please read your own thread. 

Sit down, pour a cup of coffee, relax, and start at the beginning.


Are you just posting without going back to see what replies have occured to your pervious posts?



Lol...


Phil
Lv


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Well...I've read this entire thread through twice, and have come to the conclusion that one of my birds is exhibiting signs of PMV. Yesterday when moving some birds from my kitbox to my loft, I came across one that just looked sick. It kept it's head down low, and seemed to lose its balance when it tried to walk. Last night, I read up on pigeon diseases, and suspected that the bird may have PMV. I isolated him from the rest of the birds. What is a good isolation strategy? I have him in a pet carrier sitting on a table in the (currently) unused side of my loft. He is about six feet away from the other birds...is that far enough, or do I need to completely remove him from the loft? He has been in the kitbox with nine other birds since I purchased them two weeks ago. None of the other birds are exhibiting symptoms at this time.

This morning, he was "stargazing". I'm guessing that's what he is doing, as his neck is twisted around so that his head is almost upside down. Occasionally, he will stand upright and look normal, but if he is disturbed, his head will revert to the upside down position. I have kept a close eye on him, and he seems to be eating and drinking normally. He ate almost an ounce of food today, and drank about 1/2 ounce of water. His poops look pretty normal at this point. However, when I was cleaning the kitbox, I noticed a few poops in there that were greenish and somewhat runny. The other birds that were in there are all pooping normally today, so I'm assuming it had to have been my little PMV bird.

I will start with ACV water tomorrow, and some of what I've read on here suggests administering garlic to the water also. Should I put the ACV and garlic in together? Or, should I use them separately...alternating between the two? Should I start ACV water in the rest of the loft? What about garlic?

I have my birds separated into three different locations, so if this is an infectious disease, it will hopefully be limited to the birds that were previously in the kitbox.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Peter


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Actually, Paratyphoid/Salmonella can cause the same symptoms, so unless the bird is checked by a vet, you really cannot be sure of what it is that you are treating for. If you just assume that it is one thing and treat for that, while in fact, it is something else, then your bird/birds are not being treated for what they actually have. You could waste valuable time doing this.


Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis)
Nervous form – bacteria affects brain tissue causing inflammation and various nervous signs:* loss of balance, stargazing, neck twisting, convulsions etc. Condition is very similar to PMV*


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Its been some time now , Hey OneStop2050 What happened with The Birds That 1st started this Subject and Did any Of the Things any of us advised help these Birds ? I would say For ptras I would give 2 table spoons of Apple Vinegar Cider per 2 gallons of water and it is o.k to over due it even a bit at 1st , won't hurt the bird just don't way overdue it -- its acidic and can help -- I'd do this for 1 day ( start in the morning and change the water 2 more times with the same water ) and Then Clean regular water for 1 day and Then the best would be Garlic cloves poke some holes in the cloves and set about 4 cloves in the water ( 2 gallons ) , Garlic is a natural Healer .... do this for a day also changing water twice a day -- Then Clean water again for a day and the n back to the same process over and over again -- Not saying by any meens this will cure the bird but it will help the bird while the PMV runs thru its system which can last up to 6 weeks , rare occasions even longer ..... all you can do is help ... also if its warm out I'd stimulate the Bird By letting him outside ( say in a wire dog crate ) with a shallow bowl of water and let him enjoy a bath -- but you have to be right there with him , watching him in case he isn't stable and falls over -- people argued this with me before , But when the cost of Bringing a bird to an avian vet would be the same or even more as getting a new Bird -- These are things I have tried and seemed to work for me and I have Never lost 1 bird ( and I've said this before also " Knock On Wood " ) I hope this never happens to my birds ...... Give it a try and I hope it works --- I am very Curiouse Onestop 2050 if this worked for you ??? If Not -- we should let ptras know correct ? Good Luck i wish the Best and Hope The Best for you and your bird and I pray that onestop2050 's birds are all doing much better .... oh and one last thing -- We have just had our very 1st 2 new babies hatch 2 days ago -- Exciting stuff ! Just remember for every 1 problem you have in this Hobby you will have many more good things to come ! Peace ! " The believer In Natural Healing " --- Med's and vet's cost To Much -- Unless you have the cash and you have expensive Racing Birds that you can't afford Losing !!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ptras, if you care about your bird, then get him to a vet and get the proper treatment going. If he isn't all that important to you, then go ahead and fool around trying different things while he gets sicker and very well dies. If he is sick then he depends on you to make the right decisions for taking the best care of him that you can. And guessing what is wrong with him, and treating him on those assumptions is not doing that.


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## AllAroundAnimal (Aug 4, 2010)

Jay3 , How Bout Before we speak to soon , Lets see if Onestop2050 tried these options and see if they indeed worked ? Do you know what an Avian Vet would cost ? and They'd give you med's and tell you that this would help the bird but also would say it isn't a cure and you need to let it run its course !!!!!!! I Do ! If there indeed is a cure for this , then clue me in because you should be a very rich man if you know the Cure ? Home remedies work just as good as med's in my opinion and alot less on the pocket Book ! ( I am very Curiouse on what happened with Onestop2050's Bird )


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AllAroundAnimal said:


> Jay3 , How Bout Before we speak to soon , Lets see if Onestop2050 tried these options and see if they indeed worked ? Do you know what an Avian Vet would cost ? and They'd give you med's and tell you that this would help the bird but also would say it isn't a cure and you need to let it run its course !!!!!!! I Do ! If there indeed is a cure for this , then clue me in because you should be a very rich man if you know the Cure ? Home remedies work just as good as med's in my opinion and alot less on the pocket Book ! ( I am very Curiouse on what happened with Onestop2050's Bird )


Well I can tell you that a visit to my avian vet costs $50 for the visit. And if it did turn out to be salmonella, than your "home remedies" wouldn't work, and the bird would die. Given the right med, it would be cured. Home remedies are fine for some things, but not for everything. Sometimes real meds are called for and needed. If a family member or yourself were really sick with a disease that could kill you, but there was a medicine that could cure it, would you really refuse the medicine and use a home remedy? But then if your attitude is really that it costs more to treat the bird, than to replace it. And that the cost of treating it isn't worth it unless it is a valuable racing bird or something like that, than talking to you about trying to save a bird just because you care, is wasted on you.


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