# Brain damaged squab?



## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I rescued a fallen squab 10 days ago who has fed well, grown bigger and treats me to all intents and purposes as mum. however, I desperately need advice. My little fledgling (who appears to be about 3 weeks old) seems to be seriously brain damaged. She holds her head amost permanently upside down resting the top of her skull on the floor. When waiting to be fed she bangs her head roughly on the floor and walks continuously backward in a circle, usually holding one wing in the air (she often falls over at this point) she seems unable to move in any other direction, ie forward or backward! She is being syringe fed on a hand rearing food for tropicle birds and although I've tried teaching her to peck, all she does is bang her head harder and peep more loudly in frustration. Has anyone come accross anything similar or have any advice. I really don't know whether I'm doing her a favour by keeping her alive. I presume she'll never be able to fly. Can anyone help? By the way, I have no idea what gender she really is at this point


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This way of holding the head can be seen with two illnesses:

PMV (paramyxovirus) which, personally, I have only seen in adult pigeons - which doesn't mean a squab could not have it.

Paratyphoid, which can be passed on from the parents and - I would estimate - is possibly more likely to be the cause in a squab. In a pigeon health guide there is in fact a picture of a bird with that with its head literally resting upside down on the floor.

In both cases, the bird should be kept away from any other birds and in a quiet, not too bright place, in a cage or box with something soft like towelling in the bottom to avoid injury. If a cage, keep it partly covered with a cloth.

I believe it would be best to put this pigeon on the antibiotic Baytril. This is the recommended medication for paratyphoid. This is a prescription only med here in the UK, and I don't know where you are. I am not sure about the current availability of Baytril in the USA - maybe one of our US members will know this or possibly have some, have to see.

Recovery is possible from both illnesses.

Are you familiar with pigeons from previous encounters?

John


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for rescuing and caring for this little one.
I agree with John. PMV and paratyphoid are two possiblities. There could also be a possiblity of head trauma, but most likely you would have seen some improvement. Also encephalitis could cause those symptoms.
My best guess would be paratyphoid though, as John mentioned and I would start a course of antibiotics, Baytril or Cipro, which ever you could obtain.

Is there a possibility to have the baby examined by a vet? That would give a more accurate diagnosis.

At three weeks he is too young to eat on his own yet, but birds with those syptoms, even adults have a tough time eating on their own, so keep on feeding him.
I am not sure what formula you feed him, it is better if you can purchase Kaytee exact (if you don't have it) and even better, Harrison's juvenile hand feeding formula.
For now you can add a little calcium and vitamin B complex to his feedings, that could help with his neurological symptoms and it won't harm him.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello,

When did she first start behaving this way?

Can you describe her poops and feathers? (PMV can cause distinctive feather abnormalities in squabs which might help decide whether that is the problem, it also has a recognisable poop change!).

What I have found is that pigeons with PMV are often normal in all other respects...alert, with good appetites etc. I doubt that this would be the case if it has paratyphoid.

Sometimes these symptoms are caused by something relatively simple like a calcium deficiency or vitamin deficiency, it would do no harm to give her these supplements which will help whatever the problem.

Although Baytril is the right drug for paratyphoid it can also affect bone development in young pigeons, so it might be wise to obtain a diagnosis before medicating BUT please don't succumb to advice to have it put down, if it is paratyphoid or PMV he can recover.

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Behaviour was like this from the start but seems to have worsened over time. Poops appear quite runny with brown thread like things but they don't move. Feathers appear normal but is losing them regularly (3 or 4 a day). No distress apparent and is feeding very keenly every time. Has definitely increased body weight. Location is Leeds in the UK - if anyone can recommend a vet locally with expertise/sympathy it would be appreciated. Have been feeding with Hagen Tropican baby hand feeding formula. I have a small animal training course under my belt and have fed abandoned birds before but not with any conditions like this.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi,

Glad you are in the UK. Cynthia or myself will be able to send some liquid calcium supplement, if you don't have anything like that. The baby bird stuff sounds fine - never used it, but it sounds like the equivalent of the Kaytee Exact Cynthia has used for young squabs and doves (she also uses chick crumbs).

If you want, you could send a private message through the forum to Cynthia with an address, though she won't pick it up until tomorrow now.

Don't personally know of vets in your area, but we'll have a check around.

John


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

pippadent said:


> Behaviour was like this from the start but seems to have worsened over time. Poops appear quite runny with brown thread like things but they don't move. Feathers appear normal but is losing them regularly (3 or 4 a day). No distress apparent and is feeding very keenly every time. Has definitely increased body weight. Location is Leeds in the UK - if anyone can recommend a vet locally with expertise/sympathy it would be appreciated. Have been feeding with Hagen Tropican baby hand feeding formula. I have a small animal training course under my belt and have fed abandoned birds before but not with any conditions like this.


Hi Pippa.
In the British Isles PMV (or Newcastle Disease) is reportable. The Vet must by law report it to the Ministry of Agriculture. If the squab or you are not in contact with other birds, or poultry, I would avoid going straight to the vet, unless it is absolutely necessary.

The good news is, that you can treat this sickness with supportive therapy, and the bird can recover. The most important things to remember are nourishment (the other forum members can suggest that) and water. PMV has a nasty habit of dehydrating the bird. It might be an idea to speak to a petshop owner, especially one who deals with pigeons, as they sometimes stock the necessary suppliments and can advise you in an unofficial capacity.

As a reportable sickness, the chances are that the bird would be put to sleep.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Think the problem is, though, Alvin, that Pippa won't know if it is PMV or Paratyphoid or another cause without examination - kind of 'catch 22'. Maybe, though, with some supplements there may be a positive change.

Certainly with PMV, the supportive therapy is spot on - we've had a good few with PMV and they recovered quite remarkably with the rest, quiet, ensuring they get sustenance and providing calcium and/or vit supplements.

John


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

Yup. Because Antibiotics are prescription meds here, they might be difficult to get. The upside (sort of) is that they are not directly effective against a virus. So recovery is aided by, but not totally dependant upon their use. It will take longer, is more risky, but it is possible to get the bird through it. Their immune system is stretched to the limit fighting this, so you have to be reallyncarefull that they don't get secondry illnesses. I have never heard of a bird so young getting it, so I couldn't even make a guess if it will be able to fly. I have seen some birds recover almost completely (Gertrude) and I have seen a partial recovery and a relapse (Oskar)

You can never tell. But to see a recovery. - That's the most satisfying feeling there is.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

You said that the poops were liquid with a solid worm. This is typical of PMV which affects the kidneys .

Once I see two distinct symptoms of PMV I tend to assume that that is what the problem is. This pigeon has two symptoms and other indicators such as the fact that she is thriving. Babies with paratypohoid tend to remain tiny and have poorly developed feathering. That is usually how we recognise them on this forum. 

See this thread for symptoms and treatment of PMV:

http://www.pigeons.biz/pigeons/index.html

Do you have a loft? Because the whole point of reporting it is to stop its spread, if you have a loft DEFRA moves in and they place movement restrictions until the disease has been banished. If the pigeon is to be isolated until it recovers it can pose no danger to homing flocks. There is a lot of PMV in the feral flocks that goes unreported and no action is taken, but a vet might be duty bound to report any pigeon to DEFRA.

I don't know any vets in Leeds but I know one that understands pigeons who is based about 40 miles away, I can send you details if you like.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pippadent,


Lots of good replys so far...

Not an easy condition to recognise.

And there are of course a million things I have never seen or confronted anyway...and know nothing about to have any idea what their syndrome or symptoms would be.

But...

Infections of the inner Ear, or damage to that area from medicines such as 'Genticin' and it's kin, can make for symptoms similar to those you describe...



I too have never heard of the PPMV effecting so young a Bird or Pigeon...but, I can see no reason why it would not.

If he were bit by an infected Mosquito, his parents may never have been afflicted, while he was, and to their consternation, they may have elected to oblige him from the Nest, since there was nothing they could do to help him.

Other Virus kinds may make mischiefs too I believe, but this is indeed an odd situation with your Squablette...or at least, no other report of one so young has ever caught my eye anyway.


Loosing Feathers sounds odd to me...there is no reason a Baby, Juvenile or Adolesent Pigeon should loose any Feathers...or no reason I know of.


'Hagens' is my 'Brand of Choice' also, it so happens, and I have a high regard of it.

However, as much as I admire and respect it, I always mix other things with it, maybe because I am just that way and like to make more work for myself when I can, and maybe too, out of instinct or reason as well.

Now, I can not tell from your feeding mention, if your type of Syringe method, permits of solids larger than those of the 'mash' proper.

This should be fed at a consistancy resembleing melted Ice Cream on a warm day, and, it should be made to be tepid, while being stirred in a cup, with the cup sitting in a pan of hot water.

Never use a microwave to warm or re-warm the formula...


Are you certain he is adequaqyately hydrated?


But, for now, regardless...the following will all pass and contain no solids to make troubles with the syringe tip or Lavage needle or whatever...


I would consider to add a little fresh Olive Oil...buy a new little Bottle just-for-him...in fact, instead, I would consider Cold Pressed Cod Liver Oil, oweing to it's having more Vitamine "A", as well as many other good things in it.

I would think to consider to add (spareingly of course, ) some liquid Calcium-Suppliment as others have suggested, and, if possible, to obtain the kind which also contains added Vitamine D.


I would add also, some Goji-Berry Jiuce, or Black (or 'Sour' or 'Tart') Cherry, or Elderberry Juice or Syrup or concentrate. And a heavy hand with these, is fine...

These should be available in small Bottles in Health Food Stores.

These are not the kinds of Juices for casual drinking like Grocery Stores carry in the big bottles...although you can and they are delicious...and they will have nothing BUT the pure Juice or concentrate in them.


These aid in the assimilation of available Calcium and other Minerals for various Bone, Nerve and Muscle respects...as well as supplying other discrete minerals and nutrients generally benificial for them.


Small Bottles also of liquid 'Essential Trace Minerals' usually extracted from ancient Sea Water sediments or something, are also available in Health Food stores, and, a small 'drop' of this might be of benifit if added to his food also. These have a wide spectrum of basic elements which just about any kind of animal will benifit from...

Digestive Enzymes ( Health Food Stores) the kind I get are in little gel-caps, and come in a little box of fifty or something. I would use a little out of one Capsule for a one Bird batch of formula...

Pro-Biotics - see above, and or these may come merely as a little Bottle of powder, add-a-pinch...

Too, I would consider to add some old fashioned plain Brewer's Yeast powder, just a decent pinch, which will up his "B" Vitamine intake, which can benifit compromised brain or nervous situations, as well as being generally benificial.

Also 'Chlorella' powder ( Health Food stores again)...like a half Teaspoon full even, which is a 'super Green', so called...and will make the food 'Green' looking...Lol, which he likely will not mind, so long as it tastes good, and it will...


Now, come feed making time, if you DO all this, you will have quite a line-up of 'goodies' on the counter! Next to the Bag of 'Hagens'...

These formulas are delicuous, I might add...so, feel free to taste them.

Lol...


That, and direct Sunshine when possible...

...and keep him WELL away from any Microwave sources or cell phones or microwave ovens or motorized appliances or EMF fields of any kind, if you can...as best you can...

Keep him off of and well away from any kind of Carpets...and synthetic textiles or pillows or other fabric...

And, give him lots of kisses for his little head...and 'Hand Nest' time when possible...even lay down to read or day dream, and let him 'nest' in your palm and let him nap that way...

A tiny flake of plain actual 'aspirin', and nothing else of similar kind or use, a tiny flake half the size of a silk Pin Head...twice a day, is something to consider also, as an anti-inflammitory and analgesic of sorts...which can aid in nervous symptoms or motor co-ordination symptoms/problems.

Excercise, of course...

...these things at least will Aid him well, no matter if it is a Virus, or an injury from blunt trauma to the Head, or some mysterious thing, or to help compensate if he is deficient somehow in digestive enzymes or Vitamine-mineral assimilation function...

Is the Bag of 'Hagens' always sealed tight and refridgerated? and is it recent?


Too, if he is to be 'on' Batril, remove any conspicuous Calccium sources from his diet, such as Calcium based Grit, or Calcium Suppliments as such.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I too have never heard of the PPMV effecting so young a Bird or Pigeon...but, I can see no reason why it would not.


They can and do catch the virus, usually from their parents during feeding.




> Loosing Feathers sounds odd to me...there is no reason a Baby, Juvenile or Adolesent Pigeon should loose any Feathers...or no reason I know of.


Are these "down" feathers, Pippa? They are the soft white ones. Healthy adults will shed them every night (in adults it is a sign of good health. I am uncertain if the same applies to squabs.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi cyro51,


I have never seen a Squab or youngster loose any Down for that matter...nor really, would they have any to keep or to loose...so..this is mysterious..!

I do not have any experience with Wood Pigeons...but I would not expect them to be any different in this way.

My little 'Jet', a Blue-Band Feral youngster, is about 32 days old now, and I just checked him all over to be sure...and...he has no Down yet.

There are some 'fine' whispy dark colored featherings with light color ends, around his lower underside toward the back, and a little short patch of light whispy almost Down looking featherings on the sides of the small of his back, but no 'white' puffy Down as I think of it being...

The sides of his body, under where his at-rest Wings lay, are only sparsely Feathered and mostly naked skin still, and his Feathering in other areas is not filled in all the way yet...

Anyway, I have never seen any youngster loose any Feathers of any kind, so, I am thinking, this might be a clue of some sort, if anyone may know how to interpret it, to what medical-nutritional situation pippadent's youngster is contending with...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

cyro51 said:


> They can and do catch the virus, usually from their parents during feeding.


Come to think of it, that makes sense. Feral squabs who catch it don't have the necessary supportive care, and the chances would be that they wouldn't make it. And with breeders (that I know of) their flocks are innoculated against it yearly as a rule. Hence I have never seen one so young catch it.






> Are these "down" feathers, Pippa? They are the soft white ones. Healthy adults will shed them every night (in adults it is a sign of good health. I am uncertain if the same applies to squabs.


I don't think so. - I have noticed that babies shed less then adults. My guess is the reason she is seeing shedding of feathers is due to the lack of co-ordination that the bird has. Constantly banging into things, falling over etc. One of our birds 'Tutter' couldn't move forwards, howevere she could run like the wind backwards. At least until she hit an object. The result? - No tail feathers.
Please note, all of the above is just guess work.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and thank you for rescuing this needy youngster.

What a stressful situation this youngser is going thru and quite a challenge to deal with.

This youngster needs loads of supportive nutrition, including probiotics, B-complex vitamins and minerals and micro minerals & the full amino acid profile, so a little organic dog food would'nt hurt.. It would be wise to give this youngster a varied diet of seed and grain, mashed, if possibe, and the things that Phil mentioned. It would especially beneficial since diagnosis has not been made.

I would read and follow Cynthia's thread on PMV, and wouldn't hesitate to try the Neem oil and/or bark. It won't leave side effects, but will help as it is natural antiviral, antibacterial, anti-tumor, antifungul,antimicrobial, antipyretic, anthelmintic, and anti-inflammatory. It might just cover all the possiblities and stimulate immune system.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pippa -

Maybe a silly question, but is there any possibility it's a woodpigeon squab (or even a collared dove)? Both of them are somewhat prone to dropping feathers.

John


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks to everyone for all the concern and advice. Pippa is at the vet's as I post this. Will let you know their findings as soon as poss.

Signed: Cuthbert the computer.


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your help and advice, What a wonderful bunch you are. I've been to the vets with her. Couldn't find a local pigeon vet so settled for a helpful one who didn't hold the fact that she is a feral pigeon (not a wood pgeon or collared dove) against her and has treated pigeons occasionally before. He agreed that if it is PMV that it is notifyable but he said that it could also be many other things so he wouldn't be contacting anyone. He's given me baytrill and Vit B for her but reckons her prognosis is poor. He said birds which are showing neurolical symptoms (and she definately is) have a poor chance of recovery. 
Her feather loss which I'd mentioned is mainly flight and tail feathers and her wings are now looking very ragged while her tail has almost disappeared. The vet thought this was due to her illness rather than a vitamin or mineral deficiency. 

I don't keep pigeons myself, I just happen to have on old pigeon loft in the garden which is inhabited by wild pigeons. My hope is that eventually she may be fit enough to rejoin the flock there. Maybe that's a bit ambitous of me as I've never been in this situation before!

The syringe I use to feed her will only take food up to a thick cream consistency but a few days ago I did try mixing some egg based canary food with her Hagens and fed it from the end of a pipe cleaner. She wasn't impressed so I gave up on that for the mo.
The vet also thought there was a distinct lack of muscle over her chest bones so I thought I'd try encouraging to flap her wings several times a day. If I hold her with my hands cupped round her body leaving her wings free, she tends to flap away merrily. 
I will try to post a photo of her tomorrow to see if it gives anyone any more clues to her condition

Pippa


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I've just checked out the PMV symptoms and photo and seen that my little squab has been described almost exactly. The trembling, worsening of symptoms and falling over when excited. Description of her poops. Even the photo showed exactly how she spends her day.

Pippa


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Glad the vet visit went OK.

The Baytril won't help with PMV, unfortunately, and could have a negative affect on the bone maturity in a squabbie.

The vit B is good - it's even good for human nervous systems!

Supportive care, and ensuring they get their food and water OK, actually works pretty well for PMV. Cynthia has treated quite a few, some with really bad nervous symptoms, and they all recovered, with only one which still showed neurological signs (probably permanent damage). Those we have now, you'd not know they'd ever had the problem.

We have noticed with some that when they are not aware of being observed, they sometimes almost look OK, then the symptoms start again when they see someone approach.

John


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Whenever I sneak up on her I find her in same topsy=turvy head position but occasionally she straightens up to gaze around briefly and is starting to preen herself more often and manages to look quite normal during her self grooming which tends to give me hope that maybe it's not too late for a fairly full recovery. Glad to hear that Cynthia's have all done so well. Hopefully vet will be proved wrong. Will work hard at getting the various supplements for her. May try some of the homoeopathic remedies too

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

The pigeon in the photo is Feefo the Beautiful, she completely destroyed her tail feathers because of her "episodes". I had some (short lasting) success with Conium Mac and Hypericum when I was treating my her (she was the permanently disabled one. She flew up to a perch for the first time in two years when I started the Conium.

Please let us know what results you get with other homeopathic remedies. I happen to have a new PMV patient (he was found with injuries and didn't show any PMV symptoms for a week) and a new book on the homeopathic treatment of animals written by the father of one of our UK members, so I will also be trying that route.

If she doesn't make a full recovery she is welcome here.

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Sounds more hopeful already. 

If you want calcium supplement, just PM address to either of us. Dealing with this illness may deplete him.

John


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks John but I'll try pet shop tomorrow for calcium and will let you know if I don't have any luck. I'll certainly bear offer of a home in mind Cynthia if it looks like she has no chance of returning eventually to the garden pigeon loft

Pippa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Pippa -
> 
> Maybe a silly question, but is there any possibility it's a woodpigeon squab (or even a collared dove)? Both of them are somewhat prone to dropping feathers.
> 
> John



Oh no, this is an excellent question!


Nice call John...

(PS - I had not read all the way through yet, so..now we know this is a 'Liva' and notta 'Wooduh'...ora 'Dovvuh'...sorry, being silly...)


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


My own recourse with any Infant, Baby, Juvenile or wishing-me-to-feed-it of Columbiforme Youngster...

Is to use the hollow side of a conventional, soft, rubber, people-baby-bottle Nipple, and 'just' the Nipple....

I would be glad to forward tediously long and digressive details via e-mail, if you like...

It works very well, is natural and easy for them, and I have never had one ( "1" ) complaint, or had any Pigeon or Dove Baby turn up their little Beak...

Plus, you can have small whole Seeds in the formula, Grit, minced Berrrys, and all sorts of other nice things to please and nuture them.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks Phil. That sounds a great idea. I tried to buy a larger syringe today but had no luck so I'll try the bottle teat. I started her on a vitamin supplement today which contains Calcium and also started her on a homoeopathic treatment, Gelsemium. Unfortunately it wasn't my first choice but it seems a fairly appropriate one which I had in my stock.

She's lost the last of her tail feathers today and I'm having a problem trying to keep her clean as her head is constantly scraping through the fresh poop which is produced endlessly. I'm changing her bedding around every 3 hours but she keeps regaining a new poop face mask after each change. I haven't tried placing a brick in her cage yet but I'm certain she will just keep tumbling off.

Pippa


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I thought I'd put out an update on Baby Bird, my little squab. Yesterday, her condition took a nose-dive. She gave up trying to eat and her twisted neck became even more contorted. She didn't respond to anything I did, just lay in a twisted heap looking weak and pathetic. I managed to force feed her every few hours and spent a lot of time with her nesting in my hands but couldn't come anywhere close to filling her crop or persuading her to open her beak for food. That continued through-out the day. I did manage to get another Gelsemium remedy down her though.
In the afternoon I spotted her brother or sister in the pigeon loft and was stunned to see how large, healthy and ready for flight it looked. It brought home to me how weak and immature Baby Bird was.

This morning was no different. I managed again to get food into her at 8 o clock and noon. Then at 3 o clock when I went to her she opened her beak and allowed me to feed her quite eagerly. After more hand nesting with me supporting her head she settled down and I was so pleased to see her neck was more relaxed. Then for the first time, she began responding to my talking and chirruping to her. She began to lift her head and look round and over the next half hour, I caught her preening herself 3 times. Also, for the first time, I saw her stretch her tatty little wings and legs on waking. It seems like such an insignificant movement but I was thrilled. I offered her some soft warmed garden pea's and she loved them. So much so that she began trying to peck at them for the very first time - with very little success 

She's now sleeping and has begun to rest her head on its side on the floor instead of having it screwed up to face the ceiling. 

This morniing I'd been questioning whether I was being selfish and cruel keeping her alive. Now, I'm feeling optimistic again. I don't know whether she can make a full recovery but she's a little fighter and I'm readyto support her all the way.

Watch this space......

Pippa


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Pippa,

Sorry to hear the little one is causing you concern and worry but I'm glad to see that you will continue to give him/her the benefit of the doubt.

As they say "Where there is a will, there is a way".

You should try the search tool and type in "Squidget." This is a pigeon that Denise, one of the members here has been raising with so many pitfalls and setbacks and Denise too has wondered if she was doing the right thing by Squidget. Squidget is still with us as Denise won't give in on him easily despite his long road to recovery and some form of normal pigeon living still to be achieved and I am hoping that with time your little charge may improve.

He/She probably doesn't know any better than what they do, but I guess if they are suffering. That is always the hard thing to establish, But sounds like your little one has good days and bad days so.... hang in there if you can.

Take care

Tania x


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Glad you're keeping trying with her, Pippa.

She is going through quite a critical stage, poor little pet. It's encouraging that she is fighting back against the illness - as you said, even little signs of trying to do normal pigeon things are exciting to see, it's like a milestone.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...withold Calcium suppliments or Calcium based Grit if the Pigeon is on Baytil...

The medicine's actions are degraded by available Calcium...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I'd like to second Tania's suggestion that you read all the threads about Squidget and his mom Denise. When you start feeling blue about Pippa and wonder if you're doing the right thing, just read about the Squidge. It has been an inspiring story to all of us. 

We have had several PMV birds and while some are initially in pretty bad shape they do improve over time. We had one in particular, Juliet, who was not as severely handicapped as others but couldn't fly. After a few months, she was able to fly. Just keep Pippa as calm and stress free as possible and give her lots of TLC. You won't regret it because there is just something extra special about the little PMV birds.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Piippa,

I am sorry the poor baby is faring so badly!

John and I were commenting the other night that the head resting on the side seems to be more typical of paratyphoid than PMV. The difference in size of siblings can also be a paratyphoid indicator. If the poops are soiling her then they must be wetter than PMV poops?

You said the vet prescribed Baytril...that should be working if there is a bacterial infection like paratyphoid but what dosage did he recommend? I know that my own vet didn't know the dose for pigeons which is 15-20 mg *per kilo *in a single daily dose (cats have a much lower dose of 5mg per kg because they can suffer from toxic blindness) . THe dosages are on Baytril's website.

What have you got as bedding? I use towels and place a number one on top of the other so changing the bedding only requires the removal of the top towel,


Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pippident,


Now, some review or conversation might do here on the quesstion of whether 
Batril is really a good idea with this one...

It will compete with available Calcium, which in younsgters will include bone and muscle, where this might mitigate poorly for the neurological problems...

Is there reason to suppose a bacterial infection? Paratyphoid? Or...?

Or, do we take this to be PPMV?

If it is decided that this is a presentation of PPMV, then the Batril will not help, and possibly will hinder.

Natural foods or their close kin, which a wild Pigeon may eat, which are rich in Vitamins A, B, C, D, Calcium, Omega 3 Oils, as well as natural suppliments, and certain Fruit concentrates or plain syrups of certain fruits, may help...as will excercise, such as he can do, direct Sunshine out of doors...and being held and comforted in various ways.

Anyway, lets review ( maybe I missed it previously ) what the rationalle may be for Batril here, and on from there...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Anyway, lets review ( maybe I missed it previously ) what the rationalle may be for Batril here, and on from there...


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas[/QUOTE]


Phil if you don't know what you're dealing with, PMV or paratyhpoid, you'd better give it a try and treat for paratyphoid, just in case that is what it is. If you don't treat and it is indeed paratyphoid than the prognbosis is poor.
Clearly, the benefits outweight the risks.

Now, I have treated many youngsters and babies with Baytril and never had a complication. It seems that in pigeons (and other birds treated in the clinic) stunted growth is not a too common complication of Baytril, it seems to be more common in dogs, worse it can cause lameness of the legs in dogs. That has not been observed in birds though.
On the other hand, so what if you have a smaller pigeon, epsecially if it is unreleasable anyways.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Ahhhhhh...

Well, I have not seen very much of either paratyphoid or the PPMV...

But I would be concerned about the Batril having undesireable influences on the CNS of a possible PPMV Bird, oweing to it's Calcium hungers...

How would one go about decideing if it is PPMv or paratyphoid one was seeing? I mean, in the absense of conspicuous Wing Boils or their kin...?

Thanks!

This is a good sidelight to discuss a little I think...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

How would one go about decideing if it is PPMv or paratyphoid one was seeing? I mean, in the absense of conspicuous Wing Boils or their kin...?

Thanks!

This is a good sidelight to discuss a little I think...


Phil
Las Vegas[/QUOTE]


What can be done is at least test for paratyphoid, which is not too expensive, and rule it out.
Testing for PMV is a little more costly. Then again it could be a viral or bacterial encephalitis which can present with the same syptoms, but those usually ar not chronic and resolve quickly one way or the other.
This is what I would do, rule out paratyphoid first and then take it from there.

Reti


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi everyone. 
Sorry for delay between my answers but I don't have access to a computer every day. 
i'm not sure what dosage of baytril the vet has put her on as he diluted it with tap water, added some Vit B complex (on my request) and told me to give her 2 drops a day. He didn't mention how long for and I forgot to ask. I suspect he didn't expect her to live long enough for it to be relevant. She's now on day 6 of it and I was going to make tomorrows dose her last unless you guys think I should continue or phone vet for more info.

She's now begun pecking up peas and sweetcorn although she's still having some difficulty getting it into her beak and appreciates some assistance at times. I've also added some raisins and chopped banana to this diet. She no longer voluntarily opens her beak for crop feeding but peeps wildly when she hears it being mixed. I get the feeling she still wants her tropican mix but maybe has now bypassed the opened beak stage. I'm still giving her a small amount of tropican (1 tsp mixed with water 3 or 4 times a day) with a vitamin / calcium supplement added, as I'm worried about keeping her hydrated. Is this enough? Or should I put her onto something a little more adult?
She's still losing her large feathers but her poop has become firmer and darker since introducing the other foods and she's more alert more of the time. She's preening herself more often and is taking occasional steps forward in pursuit of runaway pea's. She's also taken to attempting to poop at one end of her cage which is making the cleaning easier. By the way, she's bedded on a thick folded towel which is cover by newspaper. she's also getting plenty of cuddles and stimulation. She's definately making improvements each day.

Pippa


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

*Do you want the good news? - or the bad news?*

The Bad news is, it's just starting.
The Good news is, that if she is complaining, then you are doing the right thing. The bird is gaining strength. 
Lets face it, would you like someone force feeding you? - And if the bird has energy to complain, then it has energy to spare. - So take heart. You are doing ok. 
If she is managing to peck some seeds, then you may be on to a winner here!
The most important thing, IMO, is to keep it fed, and hydrated. I'm not going to go into specifics here. Others will do that. But you have gotten it through the most dangerous stage. And for that you deserve congratulations.
So, I would check with the vet, and keep doing what you are doing. It's working.
One day, you may have a life long pet, or you may see it fly free again. - It dosn't matter, you win no matter what.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SOUNDIN' GOOD, Pippa! 

Keep up the great work! We're all pulling for you both and look forward to updates!!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I wouldn't stop the Baytril just yet, especially if you see imrpovement, it is working. 
The treatment for symptomatic paratyphoid is very long, up to 45days.
I don't see a point in stopping it and risking having a relapse. I would continue for at least another week and see how it goes.


Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 



If you make a 'Nest' for her, useing a shallow suitably wide Bowl or Cake Pan, and have a soft small wash cloth or some tee-shirt material rumpled in it. This will work much better for her in many ways, than having newspapers over a towell.

It also lets her decide more clearly, as she is trying to do, what is "Nest" proper and what is not, in order to know where to poop.

The Batril dose is important, and maybe, if it is to be continued ( 6 days would not be anywhere enough for the justifications here of possible paratyphoid) then begin fresh with a known dosage form a known concentration, where the dosage from that concentration will be correct for her weight.

Your mentioning her opening her Beak is confuseing to me, as, Baby-Young Pigeons do not open their Beaks to be fed, but rather, wish to insert their Beaks into the throat of their parent, or something resembleing it, in order to eat by making little 'gobble' motions with their Beak.

Bananna and Raisens may not be as good say, as cut-into-pieces, and possibly pre-soaked even if for Seed-Pops, of Goji Berries, as for their consistancy, ease of digestion, and Vitamine mineral constituants. Raisens may also contain too much Iron.

Skip the newspapers entirely...and line the cage with a soft towell...with the shallow Bowl or Cake Pan or even bottom inch and a half of a small cardbard box that has been cut down...to define her Nest proper.

Can't think of anything else at the moment...

Best wishes you two!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Baby Bird has finally been named. Now that it looks like she's a survivor it was time to give her a permanent identity. So from here on, the squab formally known as Baby bird, has become Peeps!

I've now added a nest to the larger cage which she's moved into. I started of with a small 1.5 inch cake tin. Lined it with soft cloth and placed her in it. She sat there for a while before shuffling out backwards. and then discovering it was too high to shuffle back in. When life is lived in backward mode even the simplest tasks become mammoth. I left that nest in for several hours, every now and then placing her back in it, but she just found it impossible to return to when she left.
I then replaced that with "nest mark 2". A small cardboard box cut down to 0.5 inch high. Lined with a woolly hat. Once again I placed her in it. She sat for a while before the backward shuffle out, turned her tail on it, lifted her bottom and shot poop over the edge and hit bulls-eye in the centre. Unfortunately this has continued since yesterday. As fast as I clean out the nest, she'll come along later and fill it. She's also backing up and aiming flying poop into her bowl of pea's and sweetcorn not to mention indiscriminately leaving it over the rest of the cage. Oh well! Just have to accept that I'm gonna have at least a short term future of poopy pigeon. 

Other than that she's continuing to improve. Tomorrow I'll ring the vet and ask for more directions with the baytril

Oh, by the way Phil, what are goji berries and seed pops and where would I get hold of them in UK? Are they perhaps only available easily in US.

Pippa & Peeps


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pippa, love the name Peeps and enjoyed your post. Really got me to laughing. Wonder if they aim purposely?

I'm glad she is improving.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippadent,


Glad to hear 'Peeps' is progressing..!

She sounds like quite the charmer, too...!


Now, if she is pecking with some success, then this of course lessens the need to be feeding her, but if she WILL eat 'like a baby', then there is an easy way to get a lot of additional nutrition into her, as well as to make sure she is eating/being fed quite enough.

But from the sound of it, if there are say 40 - 50 poops-a-day ( 24 hrs) then she is likely getting enough to eat all tolled.

Ideally, her Seeds shold be dried, wholesome ones...and of various sizes and kinds...when you mention 'peas' and 'sweet corn' I was not sure if you meant canned or frozen. Frozen ( and thawed of course) would be very much preferable to canned...but most preferable of all, would be natural unprocessed dry ones. Various kinds of Sugar Peas and so on, as are found in actual 'Pigeon Mix'...along with flint Corn, or plain un-popped small kernal size 'Pop Corn'...Milo, Millet, Oat Groats, and other Seeds or Grains traditionally regarded as their optimum foods.

'Seed-Pops' are a method of holding them, opening their Beak, and inserting one or possibly more than one Seed at a time for them to swallow...for feeding whole Seeds or small correct kinds of Berries, to Pigeons who for whatever reason, can not or will not eat on their own, but are too old to wish to be fed 'like a baby' or to willingly eat like a baby.

If 'Peeps' is nuzzleing and squeaking and asking to be fed, she may be willing to eat a soupy formula from the hollow side of a regular people-baby-bottle Nipple. If this interests you to know more about, just e-mail me and I will send some info.

Otherwise, neophyte pecking Pigeons usually have the best luck with small whole Seeds, and, if she still nuzzles, there are ways to guide her Beak for her eating these from a small narrow glass or the likes. Likewise, let me know if you'd like more info.

Being she is a 'shuffler' presently, yes, a color-code 'Nest-proper' identifier would be best...Lol...


They do 'aim'..or, some more than others do.

My living room ceiling has a lamp fixture which allows as many as four Pigeons to roost, and some of them, when there all by themselves, manage reliably, to have their poops fall on my hand as I sit there, even though I know they could miss by pointing their tails in any of various other directions. Well, one Bird in particular anyway, does the aim, hits the target, then looks down to see how well he did. Lol...

If I move my chair, he merely adjusts his aim...

 

Oh, 'Goji Berries' are a small, reddish, football or Cigar shaped Berry, sold dried or semi dried in healthfood stores or asian markets. These may be ground into powder for adding to formula for feeding Babys or youngsters, or, for likewise for adding to the formula for tube feeding adults when the tube is large enough to pass the ground solids.

They may be fed via 'Seed-Pops' also, for which I cut them into some two or three bits with Scizzors first, sometimes soak them a little also in water to rehydrate them somewhat...and, along with whatever 'Seed-Pop' Seeds de jur, moisten slightly with some Olive Oil and powdered suppliments which then adhere nicely.

They are very nutritous, digest easily, are a good anti-oxidant, and aid in the assimilations of other vitamines and minerals...as well as that they taste good.

Similarly, for formula, pure Goji Berry Jiuce or concentrated Juice is a good recourse...as are Sour or Dark Cherry Jiuce or concentrate, Elderberry, or their likes. These come in little bottles, in healthfood stores...not a grocery store item. These can also be added to the Bird's Water in their Water Bowl of course...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I'm feeding her defrosted frozen pea's and tinned sweetcorn, although she's becoming quite expert at only swallowing the pea's and throwing the sweetcorn in every direction but stomache. She will however eat the sweetcorn when I ""seed pop" her. She's still on 3 or 4 feeds of the tropican and Vit supplement each day, via the syringe. She now allows me to open her beak and fiil up her crop without too much fuss. 
I'll try local health shops and Asian supermarket tomorrow for your suggested food. Will also nip to pet shop for some pigeon mix. It does worry me though, that she could choke on some of those big tough seeds. Isn't there the danger that they could lodge in her throat? Or should I pre-soak those first?

Pippa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


If she is wishing to peck and self feed, just get her some nice Canary or Finch Seeds, chew some yourself to make sure they are not old and dried out.

Let her just peck these, and or encourage her to do so by joining her in pecking with your crook'd index finger pretending to 'peck' at them...

And or, if she does 'nuzzle' just keep your finger tips on the sides of her Beak and gently guide it into a small Shot-Glass of whole small seeds, keeping your finger tips on the sides of her Beak, and she will 'gobble' them...

No need to do 'Seed-Pops' if she is both being fed, and wishing to peck also...


Pre-soaking Seeds is very dangerous, as they will begin to ferment almost instantly, and, unless one were to pre-soak them useing ACV-Water, I would not do it.

Anyway, respecting larger Seeds of the kinds Pigeons aresupposed to be eating ( as distinct from definitely TOO big! kinds they are not suposed to be eating, Lol)...no, there is no danger of the Seed getting lodged in their throats, and for that matter, once the Baby is a week old or more, the Parents feed it whole Seeds brought in their own Crops, whatever they themselves have eaten, with no problems...




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just a warning, Pippa, don't offer the seed that you have chewed to test to the pigeon. We carry pasteurella bacteria in our saliva and that can be fatal to birds.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry, I meant for one to chew prospective Seeds only to test them for wholesomeness, NOT to then give the chewed pulp 'to' the Bird!


Oye!

One should absolutely NOT do 'that' of course, as Cynthia kindly reminds...


But, the Seeds we find in many stores are not always fresh or wholesome, and may be old and quite stale and dried out...and chewing some of them immediately tells if they have good flavor and are 'dry' ideally, which still is 'chewy' to some extent.

Finch Seed, Canary Seed, Milo, Millet, Oat Groats, and many other 'soft' Seed kinds lend themselves readily and safely to this experiement...

Flint Corn, Pop-Corn, dried Peas, do not, and if one is going to chew them, one best do it gently and take one's time...and hydrate them liesurely in fact in one's mouth, lest one break a Tooth on them..!

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I'll try and resist the urge to chew and regurgitate millet into her mouth. I'm a woman of limited will power but I'll do my utmost. Does the same apply to my teatime vegi-burgers and chips? lol

I bought some pigeon mix earlier (before I'd seen your latest advice) and seed popped some of the smaller grains much to Peeps' satisfaction. She was very excited about trying to peck them up herself but each time she got one in her beak she appeared to be attempting to crack it and then spat each one out in either frustration or disgust!

I had absolutely no luck with the goji berries. Health shop had never heard of them and Asian supermarket man looked a little confused and then informed me they were a Christmas food ingredient and to come back then. 

I was also informed by my vet to keep her on the baytril for another week and see how she goes. 

I felt like she'd reached another mile-stone today when she started walking around hesitantly in a forward direction. It was a case of little steps with a lot of waiting between each one but I was so proud of her for her achievement.

Hoping to put out a photo of her later today when Fred the boyfriend (AKA Cuthbert the computer) has finished watching his favourite telly programme

Pippa


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jest ye may, but with mine own eyes did I witness a pidge outside an office I worked in, with face stuffed into a discarded bag o' chips, and I swear he grew fat before my very eyes - not recommended though 

You're doing a great job, and each tiny step counts for her

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

Sorry, I just read that you were feeding tinned sweet corn...it should be defrosted, too many additives in the tinned stuff.

My sister chewed corn into a paste to feed a rescued squab...At the time i thought that was a wonderful, dedicated and sensible thing to do , then I found out about the pasteurella. The squab died, hence the warning .

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

So this is Peeps (on Fred's blog below). First picture was taken on the 20th of May when her health was particularly low and her head was almost permanently in upside down positition. 
The 2nd photo was taken last Saturday (28th May) when she'd begun showing significant improvement. This is her listening to me having one of my deep and meaningful conversations with her.

http://freddspencer.blogspot.com]


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

She is beautiful and you have done a wonderful job, the improvement is tremendous!

Is it just the reflection of the camera that makes her eye look cloudy in the first pic?

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks Cynthia
I'm afraid I have difficulty seeing beyond the poopy, food stained face but she is becoming a very pleasant little character

I think it IS just the camera. I'll switch the tinned sweetcorn to frozen. She may choose not to eat that also, but at least she'll have a healthy alternative to her garden pea's. Peeps gives them the thumbs up and EVERYTHING ELSE appears to be just tolerated.
She does look very immature for approx 30 days old though

Pippa


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

Pippa?
My advise? - Keep it up. Yes, you can refine the treatment, and avoid making mistakes that others have made.

But you are doing fine young lady.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Little Miss Peeps is absolutely adorable. 
The facial expression in the second picture is priceless.  

You are to be commended on the care you are giving this sweet baby.  

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pippa, you're doing a fantastic job. What a difference a few days make with good, loving care.

Tell Fred that his photos are wonderful. I enjoyed all of them.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


Her developement seems consistant with what I would expect of a 30 - 35 day old...


Good going!


You may be able to obtain Goji Berry, Elderberry, or Sour Cherry Syrups or juices in small Bottles at these evidently quite lackluster healthfoodstores, but then again, maybe not...

You could try calling around some more...

Or, better yet, try the internet for obtaining them Mail Order from regional suppliers...

Just do some 'googles' on the items themselves and see what comes up.


Anyway, I believe these to be helpful for situations like yours...especially...and the syrups or juices may easily be added to their drinking Water...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Hi Pippa,

I just found this thread tonight and have enjoyed reading of your success with little peeps. Congratulations are certainly in order for your dedication and devotion for this lovely pigeon. The before and after photos are amazing! It's so warming to read about the transformation this little one has made through your conscientious efforts. I sincerely hope peeps continues to make a good recovery.

Lindi


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Pippa,
> 
> 
> Her developement seems consistant with what I would expect of a 30 - 35 day old...
> ...


She's treating the bird, not marinading it. - And she is doing an amicable job so far, in fact she is doing a better then 'amicable' job. I or several vets I know couldn't do better. 
Pippa? - YOU GO GIRL! 
Don't sweat it, if you can't find the ingredients, the pictures show a recovering little bird. I for one look forward to seeing it when it grows up into a beautifull pij.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What a remarcable improvement. Keep doing what you're doing, it works.
She is an adorable birdie and in the best hands.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW! WAY TO GO, PIPPA!  

LOVED YOUR PICTURES!

Alvin, you do have quite the sense of humor, don't 'cha...

Actually, Phil does QUITE well "marinating" his birds. I haven't given Squeaks any Goji berries - YET...I'm too busy eating the dark chocolate covered ones! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED FOR THE UNFEATHERED 2-LEGGED BIRDS...


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thought I should post an update as it's been several days. 

Peeps appears to be doing relatively well. Still on the tropican 4 times a day but wants to be seed popped regularly too so I'm dropping different grains from her pigeon mix regularly into her grateful beak. Doea this mean that I now need to start dropping grit in there too? At times, when her feed's due she frantically pecks at the mix that I leave in with her but still hasn't managed to get it as far as the back of her throat yet. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before she gets the hang of it though.

She still keeps her head rested on the floor most of the time and screws it totally underneath when excited but she seems to be holding it up a lot when alert or curious about something. 

Her feather loss has virtually stopped but she only has about half her flight feathers left. 
Yesterday I gave her a heavy misting with a plant sprayer. The weather was so hot and sunny I thought she'd appreciate it. It certainly seemed to go down well and she looked so sweet, clean and fluffy when she'd dried off. 

She loves her daily time outdoors in the garden with me and the dogs. She's constantly looking round at the various bird calls and shuffling around backwards in excitement. Especially when planes pass overhead (I'm on a regular flight path). One of my dogs has totally taken to her and places himself next to her in a very protective, guardian angel sort of way or watches over her while she's sleeping. She has no fear at all of him (or my other 2) and constantly shuffles backwards into them while they're sunbathing. Will hopefully post some photo's of the pair of them soon.

I'm planning to take her back to the vet tomorrow for another check. I have been wondering though whether I've got her estimated age wrong. Having looked at photo's of Squidget at around 5 or 6 weeks I can see that Peeps is much more feathered and developed than Squidget. I'd guessed her age after looking at a site of pigeon growth which showed daily photo's but now I think she could be older

Back soon with vet report and photo's

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for the update, sounds as if she is doing very well.

The misting is an excellent thing to do, it helps her develop water proofing. I think that there are few things pigeons enjoy as much as a shower!

Squidget's development was significantly retarded by the nature of her illness. By the time they are 5 weeks old pigeons should be fully fledged.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 


I forget...'how' are you feeding her her formula?

Sorry, so many threads, delays in them, and so on...it is hard to rememebr all the details sometimes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Using a wide syringe which was spare from some dog medicine


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pippadent, 


Have you considered to let her eat from the hollow side of a plain, regular, soft, rubber people-baby-bottle 'Nipple'? - sans 'bottle' of course, just useing the 'hollow' side of the Nipple itself only.

It does allow them a more Natural method, and lets you put a much wider variety of things into the formula, including small whole Seeds...


In Nature, as you may know, the Babys or youngsters eat by inserting their Beak into the throat of their feeding-parent(s).

...and, the 'Nipple' comes close to this in some ways, in tactile ways, and in the easy motions the Bird and those feeding it, may make for the Pigeon ( or Dove) swallowing and so on, as well as not limiting one to powder mixes only...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks for the advice Phil I will buy a bottle teat but I'm not sure how successful it'll be. I've tried feeding small grain from a "shorts" glass but couldn't get her to keep her beak in, never mind eat the grain. However, I'm happy to try any reccommended tips from you pigeon people.

I took her back to see the vet again today. He reckons it's unlikely she'll make a full recovery but confirmed that she wasn't in any distress or pain. He thought I should continue with the baytril as there was obvious improvement. And to top everything, the lovely feller didn't charge me a penny. 

I now have some new photo's ready to post. just have to see if Fred can manage to transfer them to this site without going through his blog (we had problems the other day) Anyway, the black dog is Sebastian, my rescued collie cross who's taken Peeps under his wing. As you will see, he's very vigilant regarding her safety. The other photo is Peeps chilling after her bath and a spell in the sun

Pippa


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Lovely pics, Pippa 

She won't be self-aware of her condition - she'll just do the best she possibly can to be a pigeon!

She is a real cute little pet.

John


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Lovely pics Pippa - Peeps is cute as is Sebastian - what a handsome beast. I couldn't help noticing a ginger "bum" in the picture too. Is that a feline or a canine?!! 

As John says Peeps won't know any different - I hope you will be keeping her 

Tania x


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks. Even I've begun to see past the mountain of poop and think she's growing a little cuter each day.
The ginger bum is Bronte, my German Shepherd. Somewhere off the scene was Cookie, a German Shepherd x and then there's Jess and Toby (Fred's canine Beasties (Greyhoind x & Pointer x) not to mention the 4 cats, 2 ferrets and a couple of ponies. Most can be viewed on Freds blog if anyone's curious

Pippa


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Wow Pippa, you have so many animals - hard work but they give unconditional love back don't they? 

I think Peeps will fit in very well. 

Tania xx

"Ginger Bum" is a German Shepherd!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pippa, thank you. Those are very moving pictures showing Fred taking care of his little buddy. You can tell by his eyes that he means no harm. 

There is something very special about the little PMV guys. Looking forward to more pictures.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pippadent said:


> Thanks for the advice Phil I will buy a bottle teat but I'm not sure how successful it'll be. I've tried feeding small grain from a "shorts" glass but couldn't get her to keep her beak in, never mind eat the grain. However, I'm happy to try any reccommended tips from you pigeon people.
> 
> Pippa



Hi Pippa, 


If she is 'nuzzleing' your fingers to be fed, asking to be fed...

You can keep your finger tips just on the sides of her Beak when guiding it into a shot Glass or similar...and then keep your finger tips on the sides of her Beak as she 'gobbles'...this way, the sometimes so important 'tactile' continuity is (still) being offered, from the familarity and expectations of feeding from her parent's Throat and open Beak...

If she is not 'nuzzleing' to be fed, it will not work...

And she may be getting too grown-up now for it to interest her.


Most 'peepers' can learn to do this well at about 14 days or so...but one must not let them over-do it...as they are sometimes quite eager of course.


Best wishes!


Oh - just went back to see the pictures..

What a sweet little Squablette...!

And such a nobel looking companion...!


Has plain, ordinary 'Aspirin' been discussed here in regards your Bird?


Keep her 'stuffed'...40 - 50 nice' plump 'Raisen' poops-a-day, if possible...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks again Phil
She does gently nuzzle my fingers at times. Usually after a feed when I'm holding her. But I'll try that tip before her next feed. My worry is keeping her hydrated if she's on more grain than mix as she hasn't attepted drinking yet, although I do keep a small deep dish of water in with her at all times. She seems to prefer to use her water bowl as a non-flush toilet as I have to clean it out several times a day. I have tried coaxing her beak into it using the finger pecking action and even tried putting her pea's in water but all to no avail. She just looked stunned and wouldn't go near them again.

Also, I'd forgotten about the asprin tip last time you'd mentioned it so will try a flake of it tomorrow

By the way Maggie, Fred is definately a very noble beast with kind eyes who loves his little buddy but he's the 5' 9" two legged beast who finds other ways of keeping me entertained rather than chasing sticks. That was Sebastian tending Peeps in the photo. Don't think either of them were offended by the mis-understanding though

Pippa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


Having them eat from the hollow of t he rubber teat ( nipple) of course also allows a quite 'soupy' formula mix, whether or not the mix itself contains small whole Seeds...which is an aide to making sure they are adequately hydrated.

Too, once they are accepting of the Nipple ( Teat) then they are happy to drink Water or other liquids from it also.

Yours is approaching an age where it is natural for them to begin to leave off feeling excited or interested in being fed, or, wishing to follow through with it even it showing enthusiasm, although this of course varies with the individual.

How many poops-a-day is she making?

And what do they look like?

Are they well formed, white and brown-green, about the size of Rainsens, and while moist, are firm enough to be gently picked up by the fingers to discard if one wants?

This of course is the ideal...and, for there to be about 40 or more in 24 hours...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

She is probably pooping at least 50 times a day - possibly more, but they're of varying consistency, Some are quite firm and raisin sized but a lot of them are very watery, especially straight after feeding. Some are like the first ones (watery with thread like solid matter in) but that's not too common. It's possible that the watery ones follow me mixing her tropican with a little too much liquid!

Pippa


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

pippadent said:


> She is probably pooping at least 50 times a day - possibly more, but they're of varying consistency, Some are quite firm and raisin sized but a lot of them are very watery, especially straight after feeding. Some are like the first ones (watery with thread like solid matter in) but that's not too common. It's possible that the watery ones follow me mixing her tropican with a little too much liquid!
> 
> Pippa


Have patience. She's getting there.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


They will make 'watery ones' occasionally too, if they get excited or if something startles them...


How is her pecking?

Is she able to get some Seeds on her own?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi Phil
She's still not able to get the seeds on her own although she does try. I tried your suggestion of putting my finger into the shorts glass full of slightly dampened egg based canary seed this morning while she was nuzzling but she just kept moving her head away when she came into contact with the seeds. She's still eager for seed pops though. 

Today she went downhill while I was out at work this morning. I came home to find her laid in a large puddle of mashed poop. She obviously hadn't been moving around her cage and was absolutely saturated in it. I gave her a bath and she just quietly accepted it. She ate her tropican without fuss or excitement but then just lay quietly. I couldn't coax her to lift her head and there wasn't the usual peeping which is highly unusual for her. However, she did seem to pick up a little after a few hours and did a few wing stretches and some preening and ate another feed. I do wonder if perhaps she just became very over-heated as temperatures soared to unbearably hot today

Pippa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They (PMV birds) certainly have their ups and downs, you just have to persevere. How hot did it get today?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pippadent said:


> Hi Phil
> She's still not able to get the seeds on her own although she does try. I tried your suggestion of putting my finger into the shorts glass full of slightly dampened egg based canary seed this morning while she was nuzzling but she just kept moving her head away when she came into contact with the seeds. She's still eager for seed pops though.




Hi Pippa, 


No, you have not understood what I was talking about.

One does not put one's fingers into the small Shot-Glass ( or similar) of Seeds.

One has one's finger tips on the youngster's Beak, in a manner which provides the tactile continuity of how it 'feels' for them from their natual manner of feeding, to resemble e-n-o-u-g-h somehow, the feeling of when they would have their Beak in their parent's throat, so they WILL 'eat'...so they will 'gobble'...

When they are 'nuzzleing', one has one's finget tips (thumbe tip and index finger tip, ) on the sides of their Beak near their jaw, and keeping them there, one guides their Beak into the small deep container of small whole Seeds, whereupon, they 'gobble' as IF they were feeding in a Natural way...because they in fact ARE then feeding in what for them is close enough to...their Natural way.


These things are fairly specific...they are either understood, comprehended, appreciated for their context in terms of the Bird's experience and needs, and done right, or it is a no-go.

And for this proceedure, probable, "plain" simple, small, whole Seeds would be best...

With this proceedure, every Bird with whom I have done it, after a few days at most of having a few sessions of it each day...was "pecking" on their own and with enthusiasm. Too, it benifits them "then" to have someone 'pecking;' with them, but is of little or no use if they are not already getting it down.

Some Pigeons will need the continuity of this proceedure to progress from nuzzleing-gobbleing, to 'seeing' the Seeds in a new way as something to peck at, and with this process also, to acquire the particular co-ordination to peck them effectively, stemming from the progression it allows them to have...

They go from 'gobbleing' to semi-gobbleing, to naive pecking scooping gestures, to 'pecking'...or, if all goes well, that is the idea.









> Today she went downhill while I was out at work this morning. I came home to find her laid in a large puddle of mashed poop. She obviously hadn't been moving around her cage and was absolutely saturated in it. I gave her a bath and she just quietly accepted it. She ate her tropican without fuss or excitement but then just lay quietly. I couldn't coax her to lift her head and there wasn't the usual peeping which is highly unusual for her. However, she did seem to pick up a little after a few hours and did a few wing stretches and some preening and ate another feed. I do wonder if perhaps she just became very over-heated as temperatures soared to unbearably hot today
> 
> Pippa



Can you refresh my memory on what medications she is being given?

What additional Vitamines?

What suppliments?

What is the basic chow?



I am sorry to hear this...and hope she rallies...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi. Sorry about delays between my replies. I couldn't get to a computer yesterday

I'd taken nuzzling to mean when she was gently pecking the end of my finger.
When I first took her in, the only way I could get her to feed was to enclose her head in my hand and she'd thrust her beak between my fingers and open her mouth for feeding. I guess that was her simulating the action of crop feeding from her mum. She hasn't done anything similar to that for a couple of weeks although I do gently take the base of her beak between 2 fingers to get her to open it for the syringe. 

She's still on 4 feeds a day of the tropican hand rearing food with a vitamin supplement, 2 drops of baytril and vit B complex added to the 1st feed each day. I've also added a small grain of asprin for the last 3 days. I usually seed pop her after each feed with different grains from the pigeon corn mix and I sometimes give her a few garden pea's although she's no longer so interested in them. I also leave fresh pigeon corn mix in her cage at all times and a small bowl of water. I sometimes leave pea's in there too.

Although she seemed to become sicker a few days ago, she has picked up to some extent. She's become more animated again but she's not holding her head up as much as she was. Also, the permanent shivering which disappeared about 10 days ago has returned although it's not as bad as originally.

This morning I was glad to see that she'd tossed corn from the bowl all over her cage so I knew she must be feeling better as she'd obviously been trying to peck. Also, I found her sat on the edge of her water dish today ducking (and I use the term loosely) her head in and out of the water. I don't know if this was her attempting to drink or just coincidence. The water in the bowl is about 1cm deep so I hope this isn't of any danger to her.

by the way, the temp was abou 28 C the day she became sicker

Pippa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When they're taking a bath, they usually start by dipping their beaks rapidly in and out of the water and splashing it around before they decide to jump in and actually splash.

However, you shouldn't leave any water in their unsupervised. Feefo the Beautiful drowned in very little water.

Pidgey


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks Pidgey. I'd read about Feefo the beautiful's death and that was what had concerned me. However, the bowl I use is just a shallow cat bowl about 10cm diametre and as I said, 1cm deep. Could this be enough for her to drown herself in? Peeps is too large to actually fit into the bowl but I obviously don't want to put her in any danger

Pippa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

All they have to do is slurp up a little water when they're out of control and it can be enough--they don't have to have their heads underwater. If they slurp a little water into their lungs, it can cause pneumonia.

Pidgey


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Oh dear. I thought I'd chosen well with the bowl I'd used. 
Does this mean she can never have drinking water left in? Will she have to be on permanently dampened food to keep her hydrated? I'm sorry to be so ignorant. It's all still a huge learning proccess for both me and Peeps

Pippa


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She's probably not going to be this way forever. It's highly possible that she will get better and never demonstrate a symptom again. However, it's probably going to seem like forever...

You can let her drink water on her own, it just needs to be when she's supervised and wants to take a drink. Just take it out when you're not looking.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Pippa, it is important for pigeons with PMV not to have their access to water restricted if they are able to drink on their own . That causes them a tremendous amount of stress and makes the symptoms worse, it has even been a known factor in increasing mortality. They need to drink a lot and frequently because they pass so much water.

Feefo The Beautiful was not attempting to drink when she drowned, she could do that without difficulty as can little Speckie who has suffered from PMV related twisting and torticollis for years. What happened with Feefo was that I had left the bird bath on the ground instead of on a box, it had been topped up during my absence so although it was a comparatively shallow bath the water was couple of inches deep, which was more than usual, and a new resident chased her into it. Feefo was prone to fits and must have panicked, fallen and had a fit in the bath, that is what made her inhale and die instantly.

However I think that while any bird is ill or weak it is best to provide water that is only just deep and wide enough for a beak so that there is no danger of them toppling forward into it and drowning. Some of the drinking fountains for small birds available at pet stores are perfect for that and it would mean that she is never deprived of water but not in any danger of inhaling. 

http://www.everythingforpets.com/napo_1_amp_2_feeders.pet/use.id.5.item_id.3535.dept.647/

Having said that all my PMV rescues have been supplied with the small ceramic drinkers specially designed for pigeons and have been fine with those. The level of the water can be kept low enough to ensure that there is no possibility of accidental drowning.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/earthenware_drinking_feeding_pots.pet/use.id.5.item_id.1027.dept.139/

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

All our PMV pigeons have had access to sufficient water in a small pot or clip-on plastic dish to drink, and that is a good number of pigeons. They just don't get to have baths. 

They seem to exert sufficient control to ba able to take a few sips, generally.

John


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pippadent said:


> Oh dear. I thought I'd chosen well with the bowl I'd used.
> * *Does this mean she can never have drinking water left in*? Will she have to be on permanently dampened food to keep her hydrated?
> ** *I'm sorry to be so ignorant. It's all still a huge learning proccess for both me and Peeps*
> 
> Pippa


Hi Pippa,
* Absloutely not. I never deprived Pij from having water.

** Cynthia (cyro51) is well versed & the most experienced with PMV pigeons. Please follow her advice. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


One can simply offer a compromised Pigeon, a drink of Water, various times through out the day.

I never provide bowls of Water for young Birds anyway...I merely offer it several times a day from a cup I hold for them.

This is easy, and well worth the tiny effort it takes.


Too, if the Water Bowl is filled only to "1 cm" depth, the Pigeon will hardly be able to drink anyway.

Let them have, when appropriate...or offer them, as appropriate, a Tea Cup or small Bowl of Water which is deep enough for them to actually drink...which needs to be at least AS 'deep' as their Beak is 'long'...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your replies re drinking water. Unfortunately I've got different people who's opinions I've come to respect giving me different advice.

On a more positive note, I can tell you that Peeps has made great leaps in her improvement since sunday morning. She's more alert than I've ever seen her, is holding her head up to look around much of the time and is taking much more of an interest in the world around her. I think she's realised that when she stands tall she can now see over the sides of her enclosure and spends a lot of time looking through the open window and listening to the blackbird calls coming from the garden. She even managed to scratch her head with her foot without falling over for the first time. I think that suprised her so much that she had to do it again just so she could believe it herself.

She's also perching on my palm confidently enough to try napping without losing her balance. She's spending a lot of time pecking at seeds and I'm sure I saw her actually swallow one yesterday (well, about 75% sure)

She's like a different pigeon. I'm thinking of hanging a millet spray up as she was enthusiastically pecking at my garden wall yesterday. After all, she doesn't know she's not a budgie. Don't worry, I'll draw the line at trying to teach her to say "pretty boy"

Once again I've had problems with access to computer so don't think I've stopped caring about your advice. It's a real problem not being able to log in everyday and respond to all your advice

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Thanks everyone for your replies re drinking water. Unfortunately I've got different people who's opinions I've come to respect giving me different advice.


It is so sad when it comes to this and so unnecessary! 

What can I say? Everyone has the right to an opinion, but the information that I provided in the PMV sticky and in my posts was based on facts gained from extensive research and from personal experience of nursing several pigeons through PMV. I

Because there is a pigeon's welfare in the balance here I hope that you will be able to make the right decision, particularly since it is possible to provide drinking water with no risk of drowning.

Cynthia


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The foremost authority on PMV is H.Vindevogel. There is a book on the Boddy & Ridewood website (£2.96) : "Understanding Pigeon Paramyxovirus" which covers it.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/understanding_paramyxovirus_book_.pet/use.id.5.item_id.782.dept.86/

I'd suggest this would be a useful resource.

John


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks again.
I decided to put the water back in and so far so good although I did find her sat in a large damp patch of it today with her head and neck saturated. Whether she'd been attemting to drink or accidently stumbled backwards into it, I couldn't tell but she'd obviously managed not to get herself into serious trouble. This will no doubt cause concern to various people who feel I should leave the water out. 

She's now started manic wing flapping sometimes when perched on my hand and the force is so strong that I can feel her lifting my hand upwards as she clings on. Unfortunately as her head is upside down during the flapping she has no chance of taking flight. Otherwise, she'd be soaring around the room by now.

*Do pigeons vomit?*

Peeps seemed to a few days ago. 10 minutes after breakfast when I went to say goodbye to her, her breakfast (syringed tropican) was lying in a pile on the floor! Is this normal. She hasn't done it since.

Pippa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


Leave the water "out"...it is hardly a hardship for you to do so, and it may well prevent her drowning if she has a 'spell'...

They will vomit sometimes for appearently no reason, but too, sometimes there is a reason.


How are the poops?

How many in 24 hrs? What do they look like these days?

What is her diet, besides the 'Tropicanna'?

How old is she now, in days, all tolled?


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I've had her 35 days and I think she was about 2 weeks when I found her (total 49 days). She's still on the same food as before. Still no luck teaching her to peck but seed popped about 3 times a day after syringe feed and still recieving the baytrill, Vit seppliment, Vit B complex and grain of asprin daily. Poops still varied Some wet and thready and some solid - about 50/50, and producing around 40 - 50 a day

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

I am sorry that she had such a close scrape.

I need to know to make amendments if appropriate, had you provided the water in the deep narrow container as recommended in my PMV sticky? Or in the bird fountain as recommended later? A wide or shallow dish is too much of a risk, but the alternatives have always proved safe in my experience.

Phil, it is not the hardship to Pippa that the withholding of the water would cause that is the worry ...it is hardship to the pigeon. The dehydration caused by the effect of the virus on the kidneys is a serious risk and if a pigeon is unable to drink this is usually tackled by gavaging three times a day. As far as I am aware Pippa can't gavage. 

Recently a colleague's wife had diarrhea and vomiting for a few days. She got dehydrated and went into cardiac arrest, there was the danger of brain damage. This is the real danger of dehydration.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I would stop the aspirin now. It is a short term painkiller and anti-inflammatory but there is no evidence that it is beneficial in PMV or other viral illnesses.


Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

I'm now putting her water in a pot dish about 3 cm deep and 9 cm diametre but I have a varied selection of dishes of different depths and widths (cat bowls, hamster dishes etc). 
By the way, I also spent time in hospital from dehydration after vomiting many, many years ago and so know how serious dehydration can be

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> By the way, I also spent time in hospital from dehydration after vomiting many, many years ago and so know how serious dehydration can be


Sounds frightening! I know my cats and dogs have become dehydrated when ill, but even though I rushed to the vet with them I had no idea of the real effect on the body's cells until recently when Cindy provided her basic steps for saving a life thread.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

When Lolita was able to drink and eat on her own I had the same worry about the water bowls. I bought her the canary water bowls for the pet store, they are very small but deep enough for a bird to drink and i could hand them on the bars of the cage. I bought several, and had them all around the cage. They are small anougha nd even during the worst fit she couldn't have drowned.
PMV birds do drink a lot of water, they need it.

BTW, for those who remeber Lolita, it is actually Louis, it's a he, totally recovered and joined the others in the bird room. He hasn't had a fit for a long time now. But he still drinks a lot of water.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Pippa,
> 
> 
> I need to know to make amendments if appropriate, had you provided the water in the deep narrow container as recommended in my PMV sticky? Or in the bird fountain as recommended later? A wide or shallow dish is too much of a risk, but the alternatives have always proved safe in my experience.
> ...



Hi Cynthia, Pippa,


Forgive me, there was some ambiguity...

Your mention of a 'deep narrow' ( and one may assume stable, tied to the Cage side or something) Water container, is of course brilliant.

My concern, is of course in invisioning conventional sorts of expedient water bowls and so on.

Too, if the Bird spills the Water merely, it is no better than if it had not been there at all.

I myself, if having a Bird who is haveing fits, spells, siesures or other co-ordination or mobility troubles...I merely offer water many times-a-day, and, to where I am satisfied with how much they are drinking. And I tend to add concentrated Syrups of Mulberry, Cherry or Goji Berry and or ACV as well usually, rather than that it is 'just' water per-se...

The Birds often appreciate this gesture also, and it works well.

I did not mean of course, to with-hold Water...but rather, to offer it intentionally to them often, in lieu of leaving a Bowl there which they will either spill anyway, or, in which they could possibly drown...or where in some cases, it is hard for them to even get to because of mobility compromises.


Thanks...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pippadent said:


> I've had her 35 days and I think she was about 2 weeks when I found her (total 49 days). She's still on the same food as before. Still no luck teaching her to peck but seed popped about 3 times a day after syringe feed and still recieving the baytrill, Vit seppliment, Vit B complex and grain of asprin daily. Poops still varied Some wet and thready and some solid - about 50/50, and producing around 40 - 50 a day
> 
> Pippa



Hi Pippa,



Has she been in the Batril the whole 35 days more or less?

Have we any opinions on whether the Batril should be continued or left off of now?


If she had PPMV, the Baytril will not help it as such, even if it may aid in possible secondary Bacterial infections which may or may not have been there...

Or, if her problem was Bacterial and not Viral, it would have done about all the good it was oging to do, by now I am sure, unless we suppose paratyphoid, in which case, she could still use a breather from it by now I think...but other members, please mention your appreciations here on this?



How often does she get the 'Vitamine suppliment'? ( This can tax her already taxed Kidneys...and or simply over-dose them easily...especially if they are not vigorously active...)

Have you had a fecal analysis done?


When they are fed, from the beginning, from the hollow side of a Nipple, it is effortless for them and us to graduate them to small Seeds, then larger ones. As well as to allow various non-paste things to be in their diet from the get-go.

Did you every earnestly go about feeding her from 'the Nipple'? - or was this method, or the idea of it, cursorily dismissed long ago as pointless, since the 'Syringe' seemed to handy?


I know this Bird had co-ordination problems...but, one could steady their head for either method...


Fresh Barely Grass or Wheat Grass Juice might be very benificial for her...as would some kind of actual real unprocessed foods, such as Greens, mixed with Seeds and blended in a Blender into a 'cream' like consistancy with Water...correctly elected Berrys or small Fruits, or small bits of them, also...as well as fresh ground or small whole Seeds...

But if the whole matter is married to the limits of 'the syringe', and what it will pass or hold without spilling out the end of the perforated diaphram, then all of these become problematic, aside from Seed Pops.

But the value, I think, in allowing the Bird to eat normally, and to be an active agent, is that they ARE an active agent in their feeding, because they are 'eating' rather than being forced to accept some method which obliges them to be passive recipients.

It may be too late now to interest her...and her innate disposition to be pecking can probably be encourged if you 'peck' with her, useing your crook'd index finger, and, narrating also in suportive tones.

A small white Towell works well for this, folded in two even, as it's resilience allows their Beak to get the Seeds much better than a hard surface would...

Best wishes!

Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi All

Peeps has been making great progress over last few days. Her feathers which she had such a problem with in the past have now all regrown. So much so, that when outdoors she is able to flap her wings and lift herself momentarily off the ground. Unfortunately, as she gets excited when flapping, her head twists under her body and she just spins out of control and hits the ground almost instantly.

She's still on the same diet but is now getting more reluctant to be syringe fed. I've been trying the bottle teat but I'm still getting nowhere with it. She just keeps frantically twisting her head out and as I have no-one to help hold either her or the bottle teat it's pretty impossible to keep her head or beak in the teat. She's still trying to peck (I certainly don't need to use finger pecking action to encourage that behaviour) snd although her aim is near perfect for picking up the seeds, she still finds it almost impossible to get the seeds well into her beak. Her head just keeps jerking backwards throwing the seeds behind her. However, VERY occasionally, she does appear to actually swallow one.

Her voice seems to be breaking now and her peeps are becoming grunting, peeping coo's. She's losing that ragged baby appearance and becoming more adult in looks

She's on vitamins daily but if general opinion is that that's too often, I'll cut it down. 

Phil, I hope I'm wrong but I get the feeling that you suspect me of not trying hard enough with Peeps. I know I'm inexperienced with pigeons and feel I've only managed to get this far with her because of all the invaluable help and advice I've had from everyone but for the last 6 weeks I've virtually re-arranged my whole working day to fit in with Peeps' care. From the moment I get up to going to bed she's been top of my priority list. I spend hours on my doorstep each day just watching her to make sure she's safe in the garden so that she can have the stimulation provided by an outdoor environment. I clean her pen out half a dozen times a day to keep her from scraping her head in her own poop and since she vomited a few times recently I've almost doubled her feeds but with only half the amount at each sitting as I was worried that perhaps I was giving too much to cope with (it seems to have worked).
I have a lot to learn but have been trying to do the very best for her. She even sleeps at the bottom of my bed so that I can keep an eye on her overnight. Whenever I hear her stirring I tend to check that there isn't a problem

Will keep you all updated and hope to post an up dt date photo of her soon

Thanks everyone

Pippa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa,


No, I was just trying to get a better understanding of the situaiton...

I know you are a wonderful parent to her in every way!


Many folks do have 'weaning' problems which I never have, and this runs through my mind sometimes...

Your little one I know has more complicated issues than usual...for sure...

Just, I have found the Teat ( and it's necessary many details of formula and technique and continuity) to work so very well...and to provide a continuity to guiding their Beak into the small deep container of Whole seeds, I was trying to fit that in to your situation, since it has always fit so nicely into the ones I have raised.

Much tougher if the teat is introuced late, as for them having the continuity then in various ways.


Its a lot like an assembly sequence for say some mechanical item...if one gets ahead or skips some steps, it makes things more difficult later...kinda like, anyway...


As for helping her to Peck seeds now...hmmmm


See, when they are used to 'gobbleing' in the Teat, then it is very easy to guide their Beak into a deep enough thing of small whole Seeds, and when one keeps one's finger tips on the sides of their Beak, so they 'feel' that just 'as' they are used to feeling the soft rubber Teat sides pinched gently against their Beak sides...they will 'gobble' and will usually stuff themselves in short order...

The 'gobbleing' then is something they will continue TO do on their own with one's presence and guidence then, without the finger tips needing to be kept on the Beak sides for more than the initial moment or two...

This is SO efficient as for filling them up, one must guard against them over-doing it...

Then, they graduate easily to progress from 'gobbleing' to low gobble-pecking, and they get the Seeds usually right from the start in these low deep pecking motions...it is not 'pecking' so much as it is a lesser form of 'gobbleing' which leads TO pecking.


This is what I was hopeing might work for you...but it is a continuity which must begin early...when they are still 'nuzzlers'...and willing to be nuzzlers.

I know yours has the twisting problems which complicate all this...


Not trying to infer you have been other then dedicated and terrific...

Just was wanting to get across the reasoning behind a method which works very well, and may have worked well for you also if it had been begun at the beginning...but it has it's finesses and details, without which it will not be the same at all. It has to be done right or it will not work well.

Birds fed with syringes or perforated diaphram ended syringed, will not have anything like the same continuity, and while this may not matter in many cases, in some cases it will matter.

I know it is hard to steady their head for any of these proceedures...!

They are enough of a handfull even normally!


Tube feeding, with occasional 'Seed-Pops' while of course still working with her for her pecking skills, is about all I can think of, if she is rejecting the syringe now...


I understand she is trying, and almost 'there'...so, maybe a little more time, and she will have lost enough of the twisty, to be able to get he drill allright.


I have recovering adult Birds sometimes, who seem to need time to re-learn how-to-peck...and usually time is about all we can do on that, while I tube feed and try and see to it they manage allright in the mean while.

Nerve or brain injuries, virus effects, trauma, all can make for pecking problems in adult Pigeons also of course...even when they want to peck, and do peck, but get nothing for their efforts.

Thats all...was just intermittantly trying to explain something of my method, where, had there been time to begin it early, it may have alleviated the present impasse, or lessenned it...or allowed more variation in her diet in the meanwhile.


However, almost no one ever believes me or takes it in earnest, so I have gotten to where I mention it less and or have about given up trying to advocate it, since everyone is set in their ways anyway, is closed minded since they have their usual ways already in place, or gets all these other opinions, and rejects it, or does it badly then rejects it.

Yet, of I dont know how many hundreds of various 'Peeepers' and 'Squeakers' I have raised, as well as Baby Doves, and I have never had any issues which others write in about. and mine eat mostly small whole Seeds with other suppliments once they are older than a week or so...so, things like powder-water fed birds being 34, 40 45 days old and having weaning problems, is something which I have never experienced.

The only Babys or youngsters who do not do well with it, are those who were very ill with Candida or Sour Crop, who needed a few days for that to be dealt with, then they like they kin, loved and thrived happily in their enthusiasms for the Nipple-Teat, and whenever I wanted, would graduate to guided 'gobbleing' then small whole Seed pecking even at 14 days old or so, when I respected the continuity described above..

I was just hopeing there was time for this to be of use to you, in the occasions of my trying to explain it here and there...

I was hopeing to make your situation easier for you both is all...



Best wishes!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi Cynthia and John. Checked out the food/water bowls and book that you've both recommended and will order both. That book looks like it will answer an awful lot of questions which I'm still in the dark about

Cheers

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

You are doing an excellent job with Peeps. I have been thinking about you today and have to confess that apart from AliBlack you are the only person that I can think of that has had to nurse an unweaned squab with PMV.

I have a lot of experience of juvenile and adult pigeons with PMV, Phil has a lot of experience of raising squabs, but what you are doing is probably twice as difficult as anything we have done. Your dedication is inspiring! 

If Peep's voice is breaking he must be about 8 weeks old now.

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks Cynthia. That really means a lot to me. 
Ps. i'm considering changing her name to Grunt!

Pippa


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

*Awwwwwwww!*

Talk about 'in at the deep end'. Pippa, you're doing fine. My hat is off to you. If the lil gal, is manageing to get some seed down, then that is indeed a good sign.
If I could offer you some advise at this stage, it would be to cut down on the amount of seed that you pop in order to make it more important for her to feed herself.
Only you can guage when this is a good idea. I would never reccomend doing this if the bird is malnourished, but like everything else, in order for her to keep trying, she needs to have a reason.
I would keep up the vitamins anyway, they won't do any harm, and she is at as stage where she is growing.

My fondest memory (non Gertrude) was of a little baby we called Tipsy. She had a fungal infection in her throat, and had just left the nest. We collected her, treated the infection with Anti-biotics, and soon enough she cleared up. But she was terribly underweight, so we held on to her for a couple of weeks to get the weight back up.
She would have been about the age of your bird. When she started to recover, she'd do the 'wing flick' at the other birds and try to get them to feed her. (Which the selfish buggers didn't) But then as time went on, she started to assert her own personality.
She take to the top shelf, and strut back and forth. If we went near her, we'ld get a wing slap and a puffed up chest. 

But the cuteset point was just when they are too old to peep. and too young to Boo. She'd get all excited and it would sound something like;
"BooBooBooBooBBBBooBooBoo................_PEEP!!!!!!!!_ 
It was so sweet. Kind of like a 5 year old wearing her mothers high heels...


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks Alvin. 
Your little pidgeon sounds like a real character. Is she still with you? I know that sound well now from when Peeps is getting excited.

Your advice has confirmed my own belief about the feeding as this morning I decided to cut the food a little to encourage her to peck. The poor little thing is so dedicated to this pecking and chasing the seeds game but is still getting virtually nothing down that way. However, it keeps her incredibly entertained which is a real bonus for her and as they say, practice makes perfect... I gave her some fresh redcurrents today and she's been busily exploding them all over her pen. It looks like a massacre in there but she's so enjoying herself. She's also had her head well tucked into her whiskey shot glass half filled with canary seed but once again, her jerkey neck movements just scattered it everywhere. However, the enjoyment she received from it was wonderful to watch. I also put a little grape and raspberry juice in her food.

I had thought of cutting down the vitamins to a couple of times a week and also thought that perhaps it was time to stop the batril (I didn't give her either today) I'm convinced that it is PMV that she has and the batril may now be a hindrance in her development rather than a help. Any advice from anyone appreciated on that subject.

This last few days she has been so alert, active and affectionate that she's hardly recognisable as my little Peeps. I have great faith in her become an almost normal little special needs pidge

Pippa


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## alvin (May 10, 2006)

pippadent said:


> Thanks Alvin.
> Your little pidgeon sounds like a real character. Is she still with you? I know that sound well now from when Peeps is getting excited.
> 
> Your advice has confirmed my own belief about the feeding as this morning I decided to cut the food a little to encourage her to peck. The poor little thing is so dedicated to this pecking and chasing the seeds game but is still getting virtually nothing down that way. However, it keeps her incredibly entertained which is a real bonus for her and as they say, practice makes perfect... I gave her some fresh redcurrents today and she's been busily exploding them all over her pen. It looks like a massacre in there but she's so enjoying herself. She's also had her head well tucked into her whiskey shot glass half filled with canary seed but once again, her jerkey neck movements just scattered it everywhere. However, the enjoyment she received from it was wonderful to watch. I also put a little grape and raspberry juice in her food.
> ...


Nope, we released Tipsy back into the wild. She had the equivelent of a (bad)throat infection. Nothing more serious. We painted a drop or two of pink nail polish on her head so we could pick her out from the rest of the flock.....and for a couple of weeks we kept an eye on her. She settled in fine.
I don't want to get your hopes up, but there is a good chance that Peeps could turn into a normal pigjie. - There is always a chance of a relapse, but from what you have told us, the chances are that Peeps will make a good recovery. You may need to hold on to her, but remember, there is nothing more satisfying then saving a life.
And weather you know it, or not, you have.

Well done Pippa.


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

*Peeps at 8 weeks*

Today, for the first time I found her perched on the edge of her pen! 
I've no idea how she managed to get up there (it's 6 inces high, I measured it in disbelief), let alone actually balance til I came in. She's also been cooing and walking around in forward mode more than usual.

I've also managed to get myself a henhouse today so she can spend more time outdoors

A successful day all round I think

Pippa


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

She's doing well, Pippa 

It takes a lot pf caring and patience, and it's fortunate for Peeps you have those

I love that pic with Cookie looking down at her, almost like making sure baby isn't coming to harm

John


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Love your Peeps and Cookie pics! Cookie has a wonderful face!

In the second one, Peeps looks like she's saying, "Are you a pigeon too? You sure are a BIG ONE! What's your name?"


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

mr squeaks said:


> Love your Peeps and Cookie pics! Cookie has a wonderful face!
> 
> In the second one, Peeps looks like she's saying, "Are you a pigeon too? You sure are a BIG ONE! What's your name?"


Just had another look at photo and you're right. I suspect that she often wonders if she's actually a dog as I'm sure she'll have no memory of mum, although the excitement she displays when a jumbo flies overhead convinces me that when she grows up she wants to be a plane!!!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Those are great pics, Pippa.
They are both adorable.
I am so glad for the progress your pigeon shows. Well done.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pippa, the pictures are wonderful. I'm a sucker for a dog anyhow and Cookie looks so sweet. I think Shi captioned the second picture perfectly.

I'm so glad Peeps is improving. She is lovely.

PS -How old is Cookie and is she a german shepherd?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yup!

'Peeps' is looking very good there..!


Good going Pippa!


Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

She looks wonderful Pippa! Well done.

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks for the nice comments about Cookie and Peeps. Cookie is 7 yrs and is a cross German Shepherd. I took her in 9 months ago when her old owner died. She was about 10 kg heavier and had a long shaggy coat. She's a different dog now and fits in so well with my other animals and the various waifs and strays I bring home.
She owes a lot to Peeps as I recently bought my first pair of dog clippers and have had endless fun practicing on Cookie whenever I get a little bored. Thanks to Peeps taking up so much of my time, Cookies coat has been reprieved for a while. However, I wouldn't be suprised if she eventually makes the connection between baby birds and clippers remaining in a cupboard and drags home some other pigeon squab as a gift for me.

Pippa


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## ernie (May 3, 2003)

*nice pics - sweet pijji*

I've just discovered this thread and enjoyed following it very much.
Very sweet pictures and you are doing a great job with this baby.

I couldn't help but notice the recuring mention on how she manages to pick seeds up in her peak but doesn't seem to be able to get them down the hatch.
May I suggest soaking the seeds in water for an hour or so and then draining them, before offering them to her. I have noticed that when it comes time to wean my handfed squabs it seems to be a lot easier for them to get them seedsie up the peak and down the throat if they were wet and somewhat soft. I only soak less than a teaspoon at a time and only leave them in the feeding dish for them for about 2 hours, since soaked seeds are more likley to spoil, especially in the summer. After a few days of 'practice make perfect' with the soaked seeds they usually start getting very proficient at picking up dry seeds.
Of course I have never had a baby with PMV either, but that trick seemed to help Pearl, an adult PMV survivor who's had a relapse once, also.

Worst case if this doesn't work, you will just have to throw away a few soaked seedsies along with some pooped on seedsies and pooped on newspaper and pooped on........


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

*Another Peeps update*

10 weeks and going strong

Generally speaking, she's doing well in many ways. She's looking very alert, well feathered and healthy.

She keeps her head upright most of the time, only tucking it under when excited, during wing flaps or sleeping with it laid on its side. Her poops are almost always solid and she's now walking around like your average pidge in a forward direction whenever she's relaxed and at ease, only going into backward mode at feeding time. 
She flaps her wings regularly and yesterday carried herself about 6 inches across the floor (admittedly sideways) in a strange half spin while attempting flight, If she could only learn to keep her head up at the same time she'd have it sussed.
She regularly climbs onto the side of her pen by reaching up and taking hold with one foot then flapping her wings to lift herself fully. On occassions, she hops/falls out on the otherside and has a wander around my bedroom
She's been going out in the new hen house for a few hours in for the last few days where she seems to enjoy listening to the wild birds and can even see some of the feral pigeons in the loft that she came from. The hen house is under tree's so it's been nice and cool and shady while the rest of England has been suffering in the heatwave. The rest of the time she's either in her pen in my bedroom or on the doorstep under mine or the dogs supervision.
She occasionly has her down days where she seems to take a step backward but I no longer worry as she's always improved 24 hrs later. I now know this is par for the course. 
Today she thoroughly enjoyed a spray bath and as it was so warm I decided to put a pie dish of water down to see her reaction (all done under supervision). I was really pleased to see her dipping her beak into it regularly although I couldn't work out if she was actually drinking. It appeared to be more curiosity than anything. I haven't actually seen her drink yet and the level in her little water dish never seems to go down. However, she ended up stepping backwards into the pie dish and had such a panic I had to scoop her out instantly as her head was upside down in the water in what looked like a very unsafe way.

My only problem with her now is the feeding. She so desperately wants to peck her seeds up by herself but is still totally unable to manage it. She has a constant supply of seeds, berries, fresh garden peas etc and most of her waking life is occupied in the pursuit of getting them into her belly but to no avail. Therefore, she is still having to be syringe fed several times a day (still with the Tropican) which is now becoming almost a battle, although halfway through each meal she tends to settle down and allow me to finish. 
I get the feeling that she'll never learn to feed herself but it certainly isn't through lack of trying on both parts. I'm feeding her less than I used to in the hope that if she's always a little hungry, she'll keep up trying to peck and that certainly seems to be working. I'm a little worried at times that she may not be getting enough to eat though. She now produces about 20 solid poops a day.

Is it possible that she will never learn? Has anyone else had a pidge that's had to spend its whole life being hand fed. At the moment, its not too much of a problem being on hand to feed her regularly but could this mean that I won't be able to take a day away for the next 10 years!!! 

Pippa


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Uh - may be more than 10 years, Pippa! I've read that pijies can live almost 30 years...(strictly heresay).

Many thanks for the update! Well, hope springs eternal for Peeps making a major milestone of eating those pesky seeds on her own! You've done a tremendous job and I know you now have a pij who will love you for life - as well as vice versa!

She sounds like a wonderful bird! Are she and Cookie still "buds?"

Squeaks and I give you, Cookie and Peeps a hearty WING and THUMBS UP!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You,ve done an excellent job with her, Pippa. She sounds like a sweet, happy and healthy pij.
I wouldn't worry too much about feeding, I've never had one that didn't eat on his own eventually. Some are just slow learners and a bit of tough love might help. Skip her breakfast and see if she starts picking up.

My handraised Angel didn't start eating on her own until she was three months old. I had to let her starv in order for her to start eating and she did after the second missed meal.

Reti


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

30 YEARS!!! OH HELL.
Anyone recommend someone you can leave a pigeon to in your will?

All my dogs get on well with her but Sebastian's still her biggest fan. However, he's the doorstep and night time guardian as he refuses to come into my bedroom during the day. I've recently had to start moving Peeps out of the bedroom at night time as I was having a real problem with her 4am wake up call. So she now shares the living room with Sebastian and my 2 ferrets (Teasel & Twiglet). However, the fuzzy carpet sharks are kept caged overnight and when Peeps is around as I suspect they would view her as the best invention since the squeaky toy.

Pippa


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks Reti.
That's just what I needed to hear. As I said, she's so eager but I do suspect that she's been left with permanent brain damage as she has such a problem working out the simplest things eg, if you to go to your food bowl on the right, why not just face that direction and walk rather than getting excited and going in ever decreasing circles on the offchance that you may eventually bump into your target!

Pippa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 


Can you arrange to have thin walled soft 'tube' on your Syringe, which will permit her diet to have something more than the powder-water mix?


It is fairly easy, to take a regular Kitchen Blender, and make a fairly fine powder of fresh Seeds and dried tart Cherries/Berries and to sieve this then with a small screen, where the mesh of the screen defers to the inside diameter of the 'tube' the syringe is fitted with...and or to the semi hydrated size of the particles which it will pass...as too, to add Canary or Finch Grit...if one likes...

So that there is a more well rounded and varied nutrition possible...


Takes a little experimentation, but is very practical...

Various kinds of soft, clear, Silicone Catheters can be cut into short sections and adapted to fit on the end of an Irrigation or other Syringe for doing this...

A No. 16 Fr. Catheter will pass what common Window screen will sieve...and will readily slide into the Crop of an amenible Pigeon...where, in Nature, they do in fact swallow things far larger than the diameter of a No. 16 Fr, Catheter...


Just a thought anyway, till she gets her pecking down pat...

Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi Phil.

I'm not sure where I get an irrigation syringe from. Are we talking chemist or hardware?

I tried preparing something similar a few days ago with some canary seed and electric hand blender (the only blender I have). The only problem was the end result wasn't fine enough to fit through my syringe, even after managing to widen it slightly. However, if I can get hold of a larger syringe and a catheter, then that sounds a good idea. I had checked out plain injectible syringes at my local chemist but they all had the same standard size opening to fit your basic needle. All far too small for anything semi=solid

Pippa


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Oh yeah, I also tried some poultry layers mash in with it!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 


Can you arrange to have thin walled soft 'tube' on your Syringe, which will permit her diet to have something more than the powder-water mix?


It is fairly easy, to take a regular Kitchen Blender, and make a fairly fine powder of fresh Seeds and dried tart Cherries/Berries and to sieve this then with a small screen, where the mesh of the screen defers to the inside diameter of the 'tube' the syringe is fitted with...and or to the semi hydrated size of the particles which it will pass...as too, to add Canary or Finch Grit...if one likes...

So that there is a more well rounded and varied nutrition possible...


Takes a little experimentation, but is very practical...

Various kinds of soft, clear, Silicone Catheters can be cut into short sections and adapted to fit on the end of an Irrigation or other Syringe for doing this...

A No. 16 Fr. Catheter will pass what common Window screen will sieve...and will readily slide into the Crop of an amenible Pigeon...where, in Nature, they do in fact swallow things far larger than the diameter of a No. 16 Fr, Catheter...


Just a thought anyway, till she gets her pecking down pat...

Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

First, don't worry about holiday care, I can always have her if you go away. I looked after Pijifan's 4 rescues (2 were PMV) while he went to Greece for 6 weeks and I can provide indoor and outdoor accommodation. I have a 6ft X 4X 6 "doviary" in the garden which temporary residents can get fresh air and sunshine without being exposed to the hazards of the main aviary like the bath. Indoors I use the Chinchilla cages that are sold at Petsmart.

As for feeding, I have checked the notebook in which I recorded everything I was told by Helen (Nooti) when I first started rescues and it says" Helen's advice on feeding a baby pij 30 days old. 40 mls twice a day will get him by but ideally 40 mls 3 times a day to keep alive and gain weight." That was 40ml of chick crumbs, soaked in warm (not hot water) for an hour, blended and sieved three times. It is nutritionally excellent for pigeons and is served at around the consistency of ketchup. You can add little seeds to the diet by making little pigeon "balls" made out of a paste of chick crumbs and anything else that you might think necessary, you just dip the the vballs in water and pop into the opened beak.

When I gavage I use the rounded end bit of the Parrot tube sold by Vetark , cut to the appropriate length so that it goes into the pigeon's crop but no further: http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=8&pnum=A2A5F . 

According to the Green Flag route map Helen is only an hour away from you by motorway (in Blackburn Lancs) , maybe now that she is back from her honeymoon she can have a look at Peeps and also give you advice and if you need it a practical demonstration on feeding.

I have a new PMV "recovery" at the moment, he is 12 weeks into the disease and still has very severe tremors of the head, tosses seeds, dances in circles and falls over...although he was an adult when he was found he has difficulty feeding.

The 30 ml feeding syringes sold by Vetark have a wider nozzle. I haven't tried those because they are so much more expensive than the medical ones sold. They would fit into the top of the parrot feeding tube which would mean that the end that you insert into the pigeon's esophagus would not be rounded after you cut the tube to size. However, it can be used for feeding pigeons (I am using the "rough" end at the moment because I have mislaid all 3 rounded tubes!)
http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=8&pnum=A2A5D That would solve the problem of feeding "thick" food. The 60ml syringe can be too large to feed comfortably with, so I never use that.

Give Peeps a little stroke from me.


Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 


Somehow your post ended up in front of mine and THAT seems odd..!

Well, any general medical supply place, should have a wide variety of Syringes, none of which should cost hardly anything.

I think I pay about 50 or 60 Cents each for the small to medium size ones, and HUGE ones ( over 30 mL) are only around a dollar...

Now, usually, there are some various kinds of ends on these also, for fitting on the Needle. The old plain end kind, and the Luer-Loc end kind...


What I call 'Irrigation' Syringes, these have a long tapering snout, and are not intended to accept a Leur-Loc or other Needle, but instead, merely have their own longish snout, which tapers and curves....and it's interior diameter of course also tapers over it's length, which is what recommends them so nicely for these uses.

These, when that snout is cut back, will accept nicely, about any size Catheter section one may wish to fit to them...and will be able to have an inside opening of certainly 3/16ths inch if one cut them back far enough.

One cuts the tapering snout back, according to the inside diameter of the Catheter secion one intends to fit on to it, so that the inside diameter of the snout will be a little larger than that of the Catheter one has in mind...without being obliged to the ultimate terminal inside diameter of the end of the snout itself.


Most Catheters are made of thermoplastic materials, which, when warmed carefully with a Match or Cigarette Lighter, are temporarily able to be stretched over, and worked up over, say, the end of a sharp Pencil, and with one or two such heat-and-stretch processes, to make it a little larger and tapering, it may be warmed a third time and be stretched over the end of one's Irrigation or other Syringe tip.

Some Catheters come with a socket end which is a Leur-Loc already, but these are very hard to find it seems...but with these, one merely cuts them to a convenient length, and is ready to go with whatever Syringe one has, but these are not going to pass the kinds of solids which an Irrigation Syringe with a cut back snout will...

Hobby Stores, Mail Order Hobby Suppliers, some Wood Working Supply places, also sell these same kinds of 'Irrigation' Syringes, even if they sell them for rather more than the medical supply places do...but they sell them for people who may wish to use them for applying Glues into tight places...or other uses...

Veterinary or Pigeon Supply places, or their mail order kin, should also sell classic, plain, inexpensive irrigation Syringes ( say, at two for $5.00 or something, verses, say, $1.00 if one has a friendly med supply place near home...) 

These will tend to be around a 20 mL size, and will not have the Neopreme seal on the plunger.


Some Pet Stores also sell them...


These will of course then, will accept a larger diameter Catheter section, than those medical Syringes which have the same-size-on-all Leur-Loc end, which as you observe, is not as large internally as one would prefer...and not usually large enough to pass ground Seed's solids...

Now, too, to some degree, you can take a small sharp Twist drill and drill out the inside diameter of any plastic Syringe tip, in order to make that as large as possible...and, with a single-edge-razor-blade, gently cut off the 'cuff' which defines the area around the tip itself...

And, if one sieve one's fresh made ground or 'blended' Seeds/Berries to the necessary fines, sieve them so that their hydrated solids will pass the intended Catheter's inside diameter, AND the transition one had made from Syringe to Catheter...then one can sometimes get away with a reamed-out or drilled out regular tip-size Syringe...this can take some experiment...and of course is more tedious to achieve than just having an Irrigation Syringe in the first place, for which one still should sieve of course..!

Now, the 'Feeding Syringes' which Cynthia mentions above, might just be excellent also, so long as they posess a longish tapering snout one may cut back in order to fit the size of Catheter section one wishes to use...

Some of these I think are about the same as Irrigation Syringes...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Somehow your post ended up in front of mine and THAT seems odd..!


That is because you posted twice Phil, about an hour or so apart.

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Hi
Sorrry for late reply but haven't been able to get to a computer since my last post.

Thanks again for all the advice Phil and thanks Cynthia for offer of holiday accomodation for Peeps. 

Since my last report I've managed to widen the hole in the nozzle of my syringe and have been mixing my own blend of food for her which includes berries, fresh veg and various small bird seeds. I'm not sure whether Peeps approves of the new diet but the diarrheoa has totally disappeared in the last week so I guess I must be doing something right. However, feeding her has now become a real struggle. She puts up such a battle struggling and snaking her head in every direction to avoid the syringe but she's still having no luck eating without my help so I don't feel I have any choice but to subject her to this ordeal if she's to survive.

I managed to buy a suitable water container for her and have also made a better one (Blue Peter style) using a plastic vitamin tub, the lid of an ice cream tub and some strong glue. Unfortunately, I haven't seen her using either nor noticed the water level go down.

I cut the number of feeds down to encourage her to continue pecking but after 10 days of this, I've decided to increase them again as I'm worried she's not getting enough to eat and has lost weight. I think the pecking will continue as normal as she seems to instinctively do it almost all her waking hours.

A couple of days ago she seemed to take a few steps backwards again as her head went back into upside-down position position and she began walking backward again. She also seemed more agitated and seemed to panic at levery little noise and movement. She's slightly better again today and I now just take it in my stride. 

Last night, she actually managed to lift herself almost 6 inches into the air while flapping but as usual, it was in an uncontrolled spin with her head twisted and she crashed straight back to the floor

That's it for the moment. Hope to check in again soon
Thanks everyone

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

Vegetables and berries are not part of the feral pigeon's natural diet even when scavenging so although they may be given as a supplement I would not make it a big part of every feed.

If you are having trouble with the syringe feeding try the Chick Starter Crumb balls. You soak the chick starter crumbs in hot water for half an hour, mix them into a thick paste and feed the balls one at a time. You can roll a ball in vitamin powder to supplement or roll it in bird seed before feeding.

Another way would be to feed a single seed at a time (as long as peeps gets enough water). But that is time consuming as they need about 30 gms of seed a day

Have you corresponded with Les (A Wing and A Prayer) in London about Peeps? Les has recently nursed squabs through PMV and he must have come across every problem imagineable. I will send you his telephone number (I have his permission to do that) and maybe you could have a chat about how he coped with different obstacles.

I give PMV pigeons a couple of drops of Gem's Calcium syrup to help with the torticollis. I don't know why that helps but is does.

I don't know if you saw my PMV pigeon video, it shows how despite the neurological problems these pigeons can manage to feed themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWC58llOBzQ

Cynthia


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

*Update on Mister? Peeps*

Hi. Ive finally managed to get back to a computer again after a month of pc abstinence.
Peeps has now moved permanently into the little hen house which I'd been given. S/he comes in several times a day for hand feeding but spends the rest of the time sitting on a little log on the ground watching the wild pigeons going about their business (the youngsters from the loft which s/he came from keep flying down to sit on the wire mesh above). S/he still attempts to peck at the seeds which I put in daily but still with no success. 
Unfortunately, her symptoms seem no better but s/he appears healthy enough.

My next question is how do you tell male from female? I'm beginning to believe Peeps may be a Mr Peeps!!!
One of the reasons being that s/he's developed the irridescent green colouring on his//her neck. Also, on Friday, I took in another fallen squab (about 3 weeks old) Very thin and rain soaked but bursting with life and energy after a feed. I introduced them when Peeps came in for his/her feed and Peeps reaction on being confronted by a manic peeping infant was to puff up the neck feathers, coo loudly then appear to attack it. However, I could be mistaken in my interpratation.

Does anyone recognise Peeps' gender from this description? 

Cynthia, it would be great if you could private message Les' phone number to me. 

Cheers

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pippa,

THanks for the update! Peeps sounds like a boy to me, but I often make mistakes!

I have PM'd you Les' number.

All the best.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pippadent said:


> One of the reasons being that s/he's developed the irridescent green colouring on his//her neck. Also, on Friday, I took in another fallen squab (about 3 weeks old) Very thin and rain soaked but bursting with life and energy after a feed. I introduced them when Peeps came in for his/her feed and Peeps reaction on being confronted by a manic peeping infant was to puff up the neck feathers, coo loudly then appear to attack it. However, I could be mistaken in my interpratation.
> Does anyone recognise Peeps' gender from this description?
> Pippa



It sounds like a typical young male reaction. I put one of my male youngsters in a playpen with three other 3 week old youngsters, boy did I get a reaction. He started walking very proud, puffed out the neck, and would peck one or two of them and acted like the boss over the bunch. He did indeed turn out to be a male!


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

Thanks for Les' phone number Cynthia. I'll give him a ring shortly

Pippa


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## taffy (May 19, 2003)

*Get the bird to a vet or rehabber IMMEDIATELY*

Take the bird to a rehabber or vet immediately. There are possibilities of disease or physiological damage; you could save the bird's life or prevent a life of discomfort. Find a wildlife avian vet and run with the bird over there!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 


Yahhhhh...sounds like a typical male...


Too, I have seen some males, a young one in particular, who was two or three months old, be very kind ot newly arrived peeper others, and who would actually let them nestle under him as he stood tirelessly over them, keeping them warm.

I have seen at least one other couple-month-old Pigeon, who I decided was a female, come over to feed a peeper I had here...


So, there will be exceptions...


Post an updated pic or two or Peeps..!


Anyway, I myself have never worried of any new-arrive peeper or squeaker having any disease to worry about, unless I were to see sumptoms of PPMV, in which case I would quarenteen them as a matter of course.

Other illnesses they may have, when one feeds various peepers from a fresh steralized Nipple for each, no one is going to 'give' anything to anyone else, at least as far as I have ever seen...and when their ownly Water is that offered to them by me, there is no communal Water Bowl for germs to get from one to another in...so...

Just see how the poops are doing with the new-arrive, and so long as he is active and assertive and has a good appetite, if he has any yellow in his poops or off poops then of course look into these for getting a diagnosis and treatment...

But so lopng as Peep's water and food is not pooped on or in by an ill other, there should be nothing to worry about...


...and best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

taffy said:


> Take the bird to a rehabber or vet immediately. There are possibilities of disease or physiological damage; you could save the bird's life or prevent a life of discomfort. Find a wildlife avian vet and run with the bird over there!


The vet was an option that was already discussed in the beginning of this thread. Pippa has had this bird for over a month now and it has really come along, with help from expert pigeon rehabbers from this website.


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## pippadent (May 19, 2006)

*WHOOPEE* *Peeps is eating*

It's been weeks since I've been able to get to a computer so have lots to report. 

I spoke at length to Les on the phone (thanks Cynthia, He was brilliant)
He reckoned that Peeps' problem was that he didn't like the food I'd been giving and he'd basically become very lazy and just wasn't attempting to feed himself. He gave me a shopping list a foot long and also suggested that I should move Buzz (my little squabby) outdoors into the hen house as he had started feeding himself a couple of days earlier and begun greeting me from the top of my kitchen work surfaces everytime I came in. Buzz was around five and a half weeks at this stage. 
The following day I picked up the huge carrier bag of different seeds from my good pal at the petshop and changed Peeps' diet. That was last Monday. On the Wednesday I was absolutelty amazed to see Peeps take a peanut in his mouth, carefully turn his head upside down and swallow it all by himself. He then worked his way through all the peanuts in his bowl (about 6 of them) before starting on the sunflower seeds. I just stood with my mouth wide open and feeling proud as punch. Then to top that, he strutted over to the water bowl and took a long steady drink. 
Within the last few days, he's become quite the expert glutton, but then he does have a lot of lost time to make up.

Since then, Buzz, my little squabby who's now 6 weeks old has decided to pack up his seed bag and leave home. On Friday when I went to fetch him and Peeps for their afternoon doorstep session, he walked out of the hen house as usual, gave me a wary look when I went to pick him up and took flight straight up to the pigeon loft where he'd been born. He disappeared inside for 45 minutes, then out he came and flew over to join Peeps and I on the doorstep where he was his friendly,affectionate self again.

The following morning when I went to feed them, Buzz had managed to escape. He was nowhere in sight. I went off to work and on returning in the afternoon I took Peeps onto the doorstep, where half an hour later, Buzz flew down from the loft and joined us. He sat with us for a couple of hours, eating and snoozing against me on the doorstep before flying off when I put Peeps away. Today, although I couldn't see him this morning, I found him waiting for me on the doorstep when I got back from walking my dogs.

He's become quite wary about my reaching out to touch at anytime other than our doorstep sessions where he still allows me to stroke and handle him. I tend to think this is a good thing as I wouldn't want him walking up to strangers.

It may be several more weeks before I can get to a computer again to read any comments but I hope you guys out there are as pleased as I am

Cheers

One Proud Mum

Pippa


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is sooooo heart warming, Pippa! It has been a long hawl for you and you have been incredibly patient.

 

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What a wonderful update. Thank you for your patience, it payed off.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pippa, 


Glad to hear things are going well..!


Wonderful..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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