# advice please.



## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Is it alright to feed feral pigeons crushed peanuts? My piggies adore them and prefer it to mixed corn.I ask this question as no one on this site has recomended peanuts as a food source. Sometimes I give bread soaked in water when I cannot afford the grain or peanuts (lots of ferals to feed) Is this so bad? I live in the UK and not able to buy the peas which are often mentioned. Canaryjayne.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I also feed several flocks of ferals and have to restrict myself to mixed corn or barley (the barley is supposed to slow down egg production) and even that strains my budget. They get peanuts as a treat, I like to have those on me on particularly cold days . I feel that even one peanut will provide them with a lot of fuel to keep warm by.

The pigeons in my aviary enjoy a different diet, as they are captive I am totally responsible for providing a balanced diet so they get a proper pigeon mux and a conditioning mix, with peanuts as a treat. However well they have eaten I only need to shout "treaties!" and they all rush out for their peanuts. They are addictive.

What you have to be careful about, though, is getting the peanuts from a reliable source, preferably one that can guarantee that they are aflatoxin free. And store them in a cool dry place.

Bread is OK, it is a good filler and has been the staple diet of feral pigeons for years. However, it should be at least a day old, wholemeal is preferable to white.

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Bread is OK, it is a good filler and has been the staple diet of feral pigeons for years. *However, it should be at least a day old*, wholemeal is preferable to white.
> 
> Cynthia


I didn't realize that. Learn something new every day.  

Cindy


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2007)

Peanuts are not a natural food source for squirrels or birds. It's
really a bean. If dry roasted peanuts are fed, the animals that can
chew food, will digest it. Animals that can't chew like pigeons have
to swallow them whole. The dry roasting takes all of the oils out so
they become rocks in the crop and, completely undigestible. Either the
birds will throw them back up or if not, they will obstruct the
entrance to the gizzard and other food will not be able to go through
because of inflammation and blockage. When they remain, aside from
obstruction, they do tend to rot from the warmth and moisture in the
crop and have a tendency to produce what is called mycotoxins. This is
the poison given off by fungus like aspergillus. When it's a fungus
called aspergillosis, the cause is aflatoxin a subcategory of
mycotoxin. Not even grit will break up dry roasted peanuts.

Raw peanuts are more prone to the creation of mycotoxins. These
poisons can already come in the packages of peanuts you buy and you
can't trust it even if they come to you within the expiration date. A
bad package of raw peanuts has the potential of getting people as well
as animals very sick. Sure, you can reduce the risk by purchasing dry
roasted peanuts but then, you're confronted with what these rocks can
do inside the birds. When I was young and stupid, I bought raw peanuts
for the birds and found that a lot of them had worms inside so
personally, I won't eat peanuts at all.

It's just not a good food to feed animals. For squirrels, you should
use true nuts like walnuts, etc and for pigeons, I wouldn't use them
at all.

Here is an excerpt from a web site that I just Googled:

"Many agricultural commodities are vulnerable to attack by a group of
fungi that are able to produce toxic metabolites called mycotoxins.
Among various mycotoxins, aflatoxins have assumed significance due to
their deleterious effects on human beings, poultry and livestock. The
aflatoxin problem was first recognized in 1960, when there was severe
outbreak of a disease referred as "Turkey 'X' Disease" in UK, in which
over 100,000 turkey poults were died. The cause of the disease was
shown due to toxins in peanut meal infected with Aspergillus flavus
and the toxins were named as aflatoxins.

Natural occurrence:

Food products contaminated with aflatoxins include cereal (maize,
sorghum, pearl millet, rice, wheat), oilseeds (groundnut, soybean,
sunflower, cotton), spices (chillies, black pepper, coriander,
turmeric, zinger), tree nuts (almonds, pistachio, walnuts, coconut)
and milk.

Physical and chemical properties:

Aflatoxins are potent toxic, carcinogenic, mutagenic,
immunosuppressive agents, produced as secondary metabolites by the
fungus Aspergillus flavus and A. parasiticus on variety of food
products. Among 18 different types of aflatoxins identified, major
members are aflatoxin B1, B2, G1 and G2. Aflatoxin B1 (AFB1) is
normally predominant in amount in cultures as well as in food
products. Pure AFB1 is pale-white to yellow crystalline, odorless
solid. Aflatoxins are soluble in methanol, chloroform, actone,
acetonitrile. A. flavus typically produces AFB1 and AFB2, where as A.
parasiticus produce AFG1 and AFG2 as well as AFB1 and AFB2. Four other
aflatoxins M1, M2, B2A, G2A which may be produced in minor amounts
were subsequently isolated from cultures of A. flavus and A.
parasiticus. A number of closely related compounds namely aflatoxin
GM1, parasiticol and aflatoxicol are also produced by A. flavus.
Aflatoxin M1and M2 are major metabolites of aflatoxin B1 and B2
respectively, found in milk of animals that have consumed feed
contaminated with aflatoxins."


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/helpingbirds/feeding/what/index.aspFortunately we are in a country where it is the norm to buy raw aflatoxin free peanuts specifically for feeding birds.

As the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) sell them we can be confident that they are an acceptable food stuff for birds and often a life saver.

This is a link to the RSPB's advice on feeding birds. 
http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/helpingbirds/feeding/what/index.asp

THis is what they say about peanuts:

_Peanuts 
These are rich in fat and are popular with tits, greenfinches, house sparrows, nuthatches, great spotted woodpeckers and siskins. Crushed or grated nuts attract robins, dunnocks and even wrens. Nuthatches and coal tits may hoard peanuts. Salted or dry roasted peanuts should not be used. Peanuts can be high in a natural toxin, which can kill birds, so buy from a reputable dealer who will guarantee freedom from aflatoxin._



Cynthia


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*those darn peanuts*

Pigeonperson, and Cynthia,

Thanks for the info. I know about aflatoxin and aspergillosis.
An aunt of my wife has a bad case of aspergillus in her lungs, already for a number of years.

I live off peanuts and peanut butter. 

My tame pigeons won't touch raw peanuts (with skins, purchesed by the kilo in generic plastic bags from a Chinese shop, imported through Holland (Amsterdam or Rotterdam). Perhaps because they have other seeds to chose from.

I feel almost certain I have eaten some mouldy peanuts before (in handsful of peanuts).

My wife is certain of one thing: weeds are hard, if not impossible, to kill. 

(Hmmm. Maybe I should ask her how hard and how often she has tried). 

Larry


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

canaryjayne said:


> Is it alright to feed feral pigeons crushed peanuts? My piggies adore them and prefer it to mixed corn.I ask this question as no one on this site has recomended peanuts as a food source. Sometimes I give bread soaked in water when I cannot afford the grain or peanuts (lots of ferals to feed) Is this so bad? I live in the UK and not able to buy the peas which are often mentioned. Canaryjayne.


I wonder where you are trying to buy pigeon food from canaryjayne? You needn't pay more than about £7.00 for a 25kg bag. I think that 'safe' peanuts would work out a _lot_ more expensive!! I just buy small bags of red skinned peanuts from Asda as a treat for my birds - this way I know that they won't go 'off' as they are used as soon as I open them!! My birds love peanuts but, I don't think that peanuts and bread alone would provide a good balanced diet!

If you can tell me whereabouts you are in the UK I will try and find you a reasonable supplier of pigeon mix.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm in contact with another rehabber in my city. She's beside herself lately because there is a 75 year old man who buys 50 pound bags of peanuts and feeds them to the birds near him. Very often, this man brings over a pigeon to her. The bird is invariably loaded with peanuts. What she has to do is go over to an animal hospital and they fill the crop up with some sort of gas that causes the birds to throw them up. I don't know what gas this is but the point is that young birds cannot digest raw peanuts either. He can't be talked to, instead believing he is doing nothing wrong. If he insists that the birds have peanuts, then at least crush them up but he won't do that. Don't ask me why. He just can't get it through his head that he's doing harm. My friend has lost his birds from obstructions and she doesn't know what to do about him either. I think this is a more widespread situation than we realize.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

In truth, a lot of what pigeons - feral or racing - eat is not 'natural' food, as compared to the diet of the wild Rock Dove (or Rock Pigeon) from which they are descended.

The few remaining wild flocks off parts of the Scottish and Irish coasts feed from basic cultivated grain crops supplemented by weed and grass seeds, as no doubt they have done for a few thousand years now, but certainly don't encounter the many different food items found in a racing mix (let alone bread and pizza  ).

My nearest feed store, mainly devoted to racing pigeon food and supplements, sells small rounded peanuts for pigeons, and the larger variety for mesh bird feeders. Never had a problem with them, I have to say. 

Really, just about any pre-packaged feed that we may give pigeons has the potential to cause harm if it is not kept in optimum conditions at any point from the fields through shipping and warehousing to eventual storage by the purchaser. 

Probably, the 'mixed corn' and barley that Cynthia doles out to the ferals is closest to natural food, but I think our aviary gang would turn up their beaks at it after the relatively luxurious diet they are used to 

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I feel almost certain I have eaten some mouldy peanuts before (in handsful of peanuts).


Larry, that reminds me of a song (perhaps a round song) that we used to sing as children..."Found a peanut, found a peanut, found a peanut just now, just now I found a peanut, found a peanut just now" Then it progressed through the verses "It was rotten..just now" , "Ate it anyway", "Called the doctor" etc etc and end,ed up with "went to heaven".

That never put me off peanuts!

Cynthia


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Thank you for all your replies. I am amazed at such a pool of knowledge. This is a great site. For all that are interested, I get my pigeon food from Haiths in Cleethorpes. All their seed is top quality and aflatoxin free, butexpensive. The ******* peanuts are £32 for a 25kg bag and poultry mix is £15.40 for 25kg bag

They do a fantastic A1 fancy pigeon mix but that is even more.

In future I shall give wholemeal bread. Infact Ive just been given a bread making machine and might start making my own. I never realised day old bread is best. I wonder why?
My piggies are very happy at the moment and have full crops!! coo-coo for now Canaryjayne


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Larry, that reminds me of a song (perhaps a round song) that *we used to sing as children..."Found a peanut, found a peanut, found a peanut just now*, just now I found a peanut, found a peanut just now" Then it progressed through the verses "It was rotten..just now" , "Ate it anyway", "Called the doctor" etc etc and end,ed up with "went to heaven".
> 
> That never put me off peanuts!
> 
> Cynthia


Oh my goodness, Cynthia, I used to sing that song as well. How funny!
Wasn't there also a verse, 'Got a belly ache' just now?  



canaryjayne said:


> In future I shall give wholemeal bread. Infact *Ive just been given a bread making machine and might start making my own.* I never realised day old bread is best. I wonder why?
> My piggies are very happy at the moment and have full crops!! coo-coo for now Canaryjayne


Now THAT would be a real treat for the flock. Even if it were a day old.  

I've always read here on the site, an occasional few 'raw' peanuts is fine for our birds. 
I can also see where feeding a flock 50 lbs. of peanuts could be detrimental to their health.  

Cindy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Personally, I feed my birds 'RAW, UNSALTED" peanuts. Always have. I don't feed them to the birds by the pound......rather as a treat. No I haven't had pigeons for 20, 30, 40 years.....only 7, BUT......my wildest birds will come to me for peanuts. I'm well aware of the fact that they can go rancid. Thus, they are bought in small quantities and fed sparingly. I've NEVER had a problem feeding peanuts. My race birds get peanuts. My young birds get peanuts. My breeders get peanuts. Racing fanciers all over the world feed peanuts.  Why is it that when something BAD is written, we clamp on to it like it's the "bible truth", but the good things that people say are ignored.  
There are too many BIG pigeon fanciers that feed peanuts for them to be the killer that they are made to sound like in these posts.............


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I see your point, Renee.

IMO, with so much discussion about "pros and cons," my motto is "when in doubt, DON'T"...I remember other threads with pro and con posts...

Squeaks gets other treats and I'm not taking a chance on peanuts.

BUT, speaking of peanuts...I am one of the blood types that can eat peanuts. I buy an organic peanut butter product from Arrowhead Mills (Div. of Hain Celestrial Group, Inc.) that is made from Valencia peanuts. I have never tasted a more naturally sweeter peanut and won't buy any of the commercial brands. Surprisingly, there is 0 sodium and no trans fats...

As a PB fan, I heartily recommend. You may only be able to buy at a health food store, though, and it is expensive, but WELL worth the price! Just an FYI for TRUE PB FANS!!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Canaryjane, I buy 20 kilos of mixed corn for £4.45 at Pets at Home. I can also buy barley at £4.00 for 20 kilos. It makes less mess than bread and goes quicker so people have less to complain about. It is also very econimic! The average weight of a feral pigeon here is 300 gms, and they need to eat 30% of their weight daily. I feed more than that but it is still very cheap.

Cindy, yes! I had forgotten the lines.

Did it end with went to heaven or were there other lines?

I think that the bread must be old because of the yeast content.

Cynthia


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I too am guilty of feeding peanuts to the feral flocks. I try to add about 500gr peanuts to 4.5-5Kg pigeon mix. 
They are always eaten first and many ferals spread their wings to occupy the space so that others don't come next to them !
They go mad when they see them.

I buy fron k9capers.com. It's about £12 for various 25 Kg mixes (there are a lot to choose from). The economic mix is £9. Peanuts (25Kg) are £23.
Prices include delivery.

I have been guilty of "stealing" peanuts to eat myself although lately I have not had more than 5-10 peanuts a week.

Aflatoxin is by far the most carcinogenic substance known and it's probably the equivalent of smoking 10,000 cigarettes a day for a year for every aflatoxin gram ingested ! 
I will be getting cancer very soon if I have had any !

I had read it's the number 1 cause of cancers in China. It causes certain cancers (I think stomach and colon) and this explains why the prevalent cancers in China are different to the prevalent cancers in the west - breast and prostate cancers.
I thought this fungus exists in Asia mainly and it's unlikely to grow in the UK.

If say a peanut is left uneaten in the ground, it rains, the next day it is eaten by a pigeon is it likely to have the aflatoxin fungus growing on it ?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Apparently it is the storage cnditions that cause aflatoxin to develop. This usually happend during transportation to this country but it could happen if peanuts were stored in this country in damp, humid conditions. If a peanut remained outside and uneaten overnight it would not develop aflatoxin fungus overnight.

http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/aflatoxinpeanuts.htm


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Apparently it is the storage cnditions that cause aflatoxin to develop. This usually happens during transportation to this country but it could happen if peanuts were stored in this country in damp, humid conditions. If a peanut remained outside and uneaten overnight aflatoxin would not form. I think that the peanut would have to be contaminated in the first place. Apparently aflatoxin also affects corn.

http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/aflatoxinpeanuts.htm

Cynthia


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*My experience with peanuts...*

This thread has been quite interesting. I have always been a believer in "if in doubt, don't do it", however I have been guilty of trying to feed my six pet pigeons at one time or another raw unslated peanuts, whole,cut, and even crushed, but presented in any way, shape or form they have completely shunned them, and months late I found the bag in the cabinet growing peanut trees. Needless to say, I have not bought any since.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Victor, do the peanuts that you use (or don't use) originate in the US?

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

We made a decision long ago not to feed peanuts because of rancidity problem. We did try them a time or two and they wouldn't touch them.

I love peanuts myself any shape or form and go through peanut butter like crazy. This is OT but, there has been a recall issued for Peter Pan PB and Walmart's Great Value brand because of salmonella. The numbers to look for on the lid begin with "2111". About 300 people became sick with salmonella. We had just bought one of the contaminated jars but thankfully had not opened it.

Here are the lyrics to "Found a Peanut".

http://www.worldkids.net/entertainment/music/lyrics/kidsongs/peanut1.htm


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Here are the lyrics to "Found a Peanut".
> http://www.worldkids.net/entertainment/music/lyrics/kidsongs/peanut1.htm


Thanks Maggie.  

I was just getting ready answer Cynthia question when I saw your post.
Now that I see it, I remember quite a bit of it, but not all. 
Thinking back, we would sing that silly song for hours.  

Cindy


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Cynthia, there is a Pets at Home in Raynes park near where I live . I'll check that out. It will be interesting to compare the mixed corn with the one I get from Haiths, It certainly is alot less expensive. I've never been able to purchase Barley on it's own, so I'll get some and see what reaction I get from the piggies. Thanks for that.

Also, I agree it's not a good idea to put down bread in public places here in the UK. There are two culls a day reported to Animal Aid (I am told by them) and we have an ongoing cull here in Kingston.So seed is best as it is eaten very quickly.However the piggies on top of my roof can safetly eat to their hearts content. Canaryjayne.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

canaryjayne said:


> I've never been able to purchase Barley on it's own, so I'll get some and [highlight]see what reaction I get from the piggies. [/highlight]Thanks for that.


If your piggies are anything like mine barley is their least favourite grain! They'll eat it when they are hungry though - I use barley in the mix to determine when I have fed enough.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I just went to Pets at Home and they had put the corn up to £5.59 a sack!

Pigeonpoo is right about the reaction to barley, they will only eat it if very hungry, but so far the ferals I have fed it to are very hungry ones. What is included in the pigeon mix that I feed my own pigeons on is always left, so it goes in the feeders for the collared doves and wood pigeons. I just hope that the barley does its work as a contraceptive and prevents some culls. It would break my heart if the flocks that I feed were subjected to culling.

Maggie, thank you so much for the lyrics, the last lines are new to me. I reemember we used to have arguments about whether it was found a peanut or found a piña (pineapple). LOL

So, another off topic challenge: does any one know the lyrics to "All the little pansy faces"? I think it startrs with "There's a garden where the roses red are blooming and perfuming..."

Cynthia


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

What would be the good ratio to feed by pigeons: This is what i can get my hands on

corn
green gram
soya
paddy/raw rice
dhal (some kind of bran)
cow pea
chicken feed (egg layers)
peas
chicken feed (broilers)


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Here you are canaryjane:

M & B pigeon supplies
118 cleethorpes rd
grimsby
tel 1472242300 

Give them a ring, I think that you'll find reasonable prices here.  

I *love* Cadbury's Cream Eggs but, I don't eat them all the time!!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I love Cadbury's Cream Eggs!


Please don't use phrases like that in the virtual presence of a person with a steroid enhanced appetite for sweets and carbohydrates and a corner shop just 100 yards away! 


Cynthia


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

If a peanut is mouldy/rancid would you assume the presence of aflatoxin or are other (less deadly) fungi more common ?


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Please don't use phrases like that in the virtual presence of a person with a steroid enhanced appetite for sweets and carbohydrates and a corner shop just 100 yards away!
> 
> 
> Cynthia


ROTFL sorry Cynthia!!


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

pigifan said:


> If a peanut is mouldy/rancid would you assume the presence of aflatoxin or are other (less deadly) fungi more common ?


Not sure but, I have read that if you get one of those disco lights (that makes white look purple) it will show if the peanut is ok or not.  Who has the time to check each peanut??  I've also read that you can make the peanuts safe for pigeons by microwaving them! Not sure about this either!!!!


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Thanks for that pigeonpoo. Your beautiful white piggies certainly look healthy on their diet. 

By the way, funny you should mention cadburys cream eggs . I'm on my third today (no joke-sad case) Unfortantly I do eat them all the time!!!!!!!!Canaryjayne.


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