# First training toss..............



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, we finally got our YB's out on their first training toss...........didn't go so terribly well. Took them 1 1/2 miles. 72 birds. My husband built a special crate to fit in the back of his truck and it's built just like the ones on our Combine shipping trailer, so they can learn to eat and drink before they go to their first race. So, we've got 36 birds in each side. My husband calls and says he's letting the first half go. I'm supposed to call him when I see the birds coming in and he'll let the second half go. I wait 10 minutes, no birds, so I call him. He says they are still circling. Wait another 5 minutes and no birds, so I call him again. He says they've left and he hasn't seen them for a few minutes. After about 10 minutes, there's no birds home, so I call him AGAIN. We decide to let the second half go and maybe they will catch up with the first group and SOMEONE will know how to get home.  25 minutes later, one bird comes in all alone. About 5 minutes after that a big group comes in and after counting there is 41 birds. So the first group of 36 plus 5 from the other group have made it home. The rest of the day, we had birds coming in one at a time, up until 7:30 that night. After that, no more birds and we were missing 16. The next day, one bird shows up at 7:30 AM. No more birds came home until after 3:00 that afternoon and only about 6came in so we were still missing 9. Yesterday, 1 came in and today we've had 1 come in so now we're missing 7 I think. If the one that just came in is any indication of how they are fairing.......it's not good. I really don't know how he flew home. I've had to go pick up lost grounded birds that were in the shape he is in. It was sheer determination on his part. Now, all you racing folks that read this........what do you think went wrong? I've got my theories but I wonder if any of you come to the same conclusion.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Renee, I would guess that your birds hooked up with another training flock going some distance passed you, but as we know, strange things happen day to day training Young Birds. You did so right on just releasing 1/2 at a time, as that way if a group gets hooked up with a group going quite aways over you it should only happen with 1/2 of our birds..... I quit training real short 1st toss for YB's long time ago. I think that they are used to flying an hour or more so arn't tired at all, full of Piss & Vin. & being young birds, flock orentated, scared, they will follow too far & have to now think/break to get home....... I have 7 toss's on my YB's the last 2 weeks. 1st & 2nd toss 15mi., 3rd 20mi., 4th-5th 40mi. 6th & 7th, 50mi. releasing one crate 10 at a time. All has gone perfect SO FAR with only a few late, & no loss's..... BUT I know mine haven't gotten into another over-flying flock "YET". That's when I have always had the tough ones, so my time is coming... A few yrs. ago YB's were doing great just like this yr., & on my birds 14th toss 4 of us in our club got together to released 70mi.. Blue Bird Day, temp perfect, let birds set for 1/2 hour out in crates to calm & get orentated. Ya, out of 180 birds we each had 25% home 1st day, & about 60% home on the 2nd/3rd day & that was it... None of us ever got a call on any of the lost birds to give us a clue of where they went. Sometimes the unknown just happens.. Many Yrs. ago I used to take my YB's 1st toss 35-40 miles, with the thought that if they hooked up with another large flock that overflys me, they would maybe be tired & want to break. It worked as good as any system I have used training, but would this help when there is something unknown in the air?????? Of course those YB's birds were loft flying for 1-2 hrs. a day for many months, as we all know they have to be in shape........ Don't know if I helped you any, but do know that I understand what happens & really don't have any good answers for you......... Hap.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Hap, I think if I went back and looked, I seem to tell this same story every year.......LOL
I believe they just flat overflew the loft, period. We sit out here on the west side of the combine and there's no one else training birds in our area, not yet anyway. I've said for the past two years that we weren't going to do these short first tosses either, but then I get chicken and worry that we'll take them to far. 
You see, our birds don't route. Never have in the 4 years that we've lived here. Old or Young birds. We had a couple of friends over this AM while our birds were out and he watched them fly in a BIG circle over the loft for about 30 minutes. This is what they do and I don't know why. He said "it's a wonder you get any birds home"........LOL
All I can figure is our location. Sitting in the middle of the woods and you can't see our house. I don't know what else it could be. If it only happend once, ok, but every year that we've lived here??? When we were up in MI, you could see for miles and our birds would leave for 3 and 4 hours at a time. Not here............
So, when it comes time to put them on the road, I get scared that we'll take them to far. Probably, if we would go ahead and take them about 7 or 8 miles, they would be ok, but what if they aren't? I'd be heartbroken for sure........


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi Renee, I have never flown Racers in your Heavy Tree type area, or the east period. Even though I was born till 10yrs. old in Raleigh County, West Virginia (that was Virginia before 1860!), so am somewhat familier of what your living/racing in.. I have Flown/Raced in 4 diff. locations in the last 50yrs. (10yrs. in Wyoming out far in the country but open) & the rest in Calif.. I've almost always had super "loft" flying YB's, so there has to be something in the handling/feeding.. One of my best Racing friends here on the High Desert 3,200ft. is like you, & never has good loft fly, & I most always do anywhere I've lived, or figure a way to get them to. He probably has better birds than I, so I don't think that is it. He feeds his birds so much heavier than I with feed left in the trys for a good 30 min..Mine may get feed as much oz. wise, but will cut it sometimes with Barley, or this yr. Hard Red Winter Wheat & they better clean it all, including Barley/Wheat up in 10 min. twice a day. This gives them plenty of feed, but not as much weight to lug/fly around. Some Baby's out of the nest have so much Body Fat that they have a very hard time flying well till they are 60 days old! Mine are Routing there best between 2-5 months old. Now I'll tell you that we both Race about equal, but he has to train so much more than me to get equal results. There are many diff. ways to handle Racers, & many diff. ways Work.I find that most Racers will stop routing & circle loft in sight when they get older & want to Breed more than fly. My only suggestion for you at this time is to train everyday possible as my friend does. I figure from another post that your 1st race will be Sept. 2/3... Ours will be Sept. 10............. Two yrs. ago I had a very inbreed/linebreed YB team that for some reason the 1st month just made very tight circles around the loft, & that is very hard on them & me.. I've seen that once before & know they were just Following a few Lead birds that did this & became a bad habit. I took them on an 8 mi. 1st. toss & most birds were 60-80 days old. They flew home that way tight circles all the way home like Starlings , so I did this 4 more toss's every day to 20 mi. & they straighted out & also started loft routing. Found the 2 birds that were causing the trouble & gave them away for Pets. Went on to have a decent season with no more of this strange tight circles.. You have probably read on the net one of our very famous Racers, that says if your birds don't Loft Fly well, give them 1/2 Barley 1/2 reg. race mix for awhile & see how much better the Loft Fly. He's right. Course ya know this is not a good mix to race any distance on, just to get the Baby Fat off them so they can fly with ease.. But again, I have seen people fly very well without the loft fly, but Road Train, Road Train, Rode Train!!!!.... Only trouble now is that Gas Prices are Sooooo High, that Loft Fly time will get Very Important...... Still think you should toss them farther, at least the 6-9 mi.!!!! Good luck, Hap


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee
You have more experience than I do. The only thing I do that is different is that I only take them about 1/4 Mile away on the first toss. When they get airborn they can then see the loft. We have the advantage of long sight distances. I lost two yesterday. My dog got one when it hit a tree and fell to the yard where the dog is housed. Needless to say the dog may not live much longer than the bird. I had to put the bird down due to its injuries. I also had one clip a wire and I have not seen it since. Its fate does not look good. My first losses of the year. I have about 50 foot of exposed wire that claims more birds than I would like. This is the first one that I have lost, but I do get four or five injured a season. I have thrown tennis balls tied to strings around the wire and they still hit it. Quite discouraging. Well I hope you get your birds back. Good luck
Randy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Do you have many hawks around if so one could have got on the birds and they would scatter and fly just all over. Far as not routing that seems odd. My brother inlaw lives in louisianaa In the trees tall pines his take off for hours. And a mile and ahalf toss on mature youngbirds Do you fly them every day and keep them up. Even circling te loft area they often will fly for 1 to 2 hours. Might push on keeping them up And you might also check your realse toss area for cell towers radio towers and such as some areas do have a problem for realeases. I know an area about 15 miles south of where I am at If anybody tosses birds there They loose alot of birds microwave towers heavy voltage power lines ect can effect returns. It screws the birds up. somehow Radar used to really mess with the birds also. I would look into what is around and near your toss points.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

re lee said:


> Do you have many hawks around if so one could have got on the birds and they would scatter and fly just all over. Far as not routing that seems odd. My brother inlaw lives in louisianaa In the trees tall pines his take off for hours. And a mile and ahalf toss on mature youngbirds Do you fly them every day and keep them up. Even circling te loft area they often will fly for 1 to 2 hours. Might push on keeping them up And you might also check your realse toss area for cell towers radio towers and such as some areas do have a problem for realeases. I know an area about 15 miles south of where I am at If anybody tosses birds there They loose alot of birds microwave towers heavy voltage power lines ect can effect returns. It screws the birds up. somehow Radar used to really mess with the birds also. I would look into what is around and near your toss points.


Re Lee............my husband did see a hawk circling a big field that the birds would have had to fly over to come home. That was after he released the second group. As far as loft flying, seems that the birds fly good, although they still don't route, for about an hour when we first start getting them up. then everything goes good until we vaccinate and pox. After that,they seem to not want to fly as much. Keeping them up is hard, because if they REALLY don't want to fly anymore and we run them off the house (by squirting them with a water hose) or run them off of the loft (with a flag), then they just go sit in a tree. I can't get them out of a tree that's 50 feet tall. LOL Keep in mind by this time, you're talking about 6 and 7 month old birds. They have one thing on thier mind.  
My husband took them 10 miles this AM. Right now we are missing 25 birds. He released them at 8:35 and 9:15. One came in, then another came in, then 20 came in together, then one more then 4 1/2 hours after release, 9 came in together, and since them, we've had 3 more come in, one at a time. This just makes me absolutely crazy...............  The only good thingk I can see from this so far, is that it seems they all can come home alone with out playing "follow the leader" LOL


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi Renee. 

That must be really scarey. 
I know this woud be alot more work, but would it be possible to just take them a shorter distance that would over lap the circle that they fly in over your property.

Don't laugh, I have no idea how to train racers. I am just trying to picture your place in the middle of the woods, and your birds circleing above.

When it is hawk season and the Peregrines show up before I am expecting them, they break up my flock which also circle above my house. A coulple of years ago I noticed that after an attack, I was missing two young birds. Because the Peregrines will knock them out of the sky, I went looking for them. I searched out the mail man and told him that I was missing two birds, and if he would please keep an eye out for them. As we were talking one of the birds flew straight in from the north east and the other came straight in from the south east. This was hours after the other birds returned home.

I figured the reason for this was because they flew out of familiar territory.

I started homing them after that, but the first time I let them go it was only a block and 1/2 then further and further, always over lapping the territory we had already been. After awhile they just flew straight home. Actually they flew above the main street that runs right by my house.

My mom and I was right behind them in the car. It is such a good feeling to see all of your birds right in front of you heading in the right direction.

Later Victor was told that if a bird was scared that they would probably fly out about a mile in a straight direction. Fortifying what I saw when the two young ones flew in.

My birds are all mixed breeds though, The furthest that I would ever fly them would be under 5 miles. 


Good Luck with your 6. They still could come in anytime.

Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Oh Renee,

I feel like a mutt, trying to give suggestions to the "Blue Ribbon" Poodle.

Feather


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Feather said:


> Oh Renee,
> 
> I feel like a mutt, trying to give suggestions to the "Blue Ribbon" Poodle.
> 
> Feather



Ok. I'm slow.........took me a minute to figure that one out. LOL.
Don't be afraid to make suggestions. These young birds are enough to make you drink......ALOT!!!! 
If this was the first time that this happened it would be one thing, but this happens every year it seems like. The reason I believe they are overshooting or over flying the loft, is because last year on a drop, the birds did this, and most of them came home (eventually) but we knew where 3 of them were. One was in Lynchburg, VA which is 60 miles north of us, and a friend went and picked it up for us. The other one was about 50 miles north and west of us and another one was found on the highway,and had been hit by a car and it was about 10 miles north of us. So you see the pattern, they were all going way north of the loft so the only conclusion I can come up with is they are overflying.  Between that and the hawks that I'm sure they encounter sometimes, who knows whats what?? 
Anyway, it's dark here and we're missing 19. I feel that most of them, (I hope ALL of them) will come in tomorrow morning.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI RENEE, How many rounds of yb did you raise?The reason I ask is you must have mixed age groups in your yb bird team. Check to see if the birds that are being lost are for the most part from one particular round. I do not understand jumping the birds out to ten miles after a bad toss at a mile and a half................Before I road train I do what I call basket train.We all know how yb react the first few times in the training crate.I want the birds to lose the fear of the training basket. I take them about 2 blocks to the church parking lot I do this 3 or 4 times.When I feel that they have lost the fear. That's when I start to road train 1 mile 2X, 2 miles2X 5 miles 2X 10 miles 2Xand then 20 miles 2X.If the second toss at any at any of these toss points is a bad toss, they go back one more time. I never jump the them after a bad toss. GEORGE


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee 
Could it be that the birds are not healthy. Such things as resperatory ailments and others could be effecting their performance. Do you treat for these ailments. I also agree that you may want to back them up and start over closer to home. With those losses from such short distance something is up. The hawks could be the reason. If they are not routing you may want to take them in the four directions a mile or two and get them familiar with your emediate area. I am just brainstorming here. My old birds do not want to route much. I have my young birds flying an hour to an hour and a half. A few groups route the whole time. The molt may be kicking your YBs down also. This is the time a year when you have to chase a few out of the loft due to the molt. Their is the old addage that it is etiher bad health or bad birds, and we know that the birds are good. I also changed my food up a bit and added more corn and barley and I seemed to get more energy out of the birds. You may evaluate your feeding. This is one area that I know little about, but I am sure that there are people in here that have worked on feeding. I have a freind in Albuquerque that raises three round and flies each one out of a different loft. Most of us do not have this kind of time. Good luck. I am slowly learning why most people raise so many young birds. Let me know if you want a kit of youngbirds for next year, I am trying to find fliers who will test them out for me. We do not have much competition here. I sent 15 to Albuquerque this year. Trying to save a few pennies to fly futurities. Good Luck
Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

george simon said:


> HI RENEE, How many rounds of yb did you raise?The reason I ask is you must have mixed age groups in your yb bird team. Check to see if the birds that are being lost are for the most part from one particular round. I do not understand jumping the birds out to ten miles after a bad toss at a mile and a half................Before I road train I do what I call basket train.We all know how yb react the first few times in the training crate.I want the birds to lose the fear of the training basket. I take them about 2 blocks to the church parking lot I do this 3 or 4 times.When I feel that they have lost the fear. That's when I start to road train 1 mile 2X, 2 miles2X 5 miles 2X 10 miles 2Xand then 20 miles 2X.If the second toss at any at any of these toss points is a bad toss, they go back one more time. I never jump the them after a bad toss. GEORGE


We only raised two rounds. I had them separated for a long time. We had the first round out flying good and after they would come in, I would put up the training basket and trap train the second round. I didn't put the two round together until both were flying and trapping good. We always catch our birds up at night. They were caught up three times, spent the night in the basket and were released right here in the back yard. I have looked at the losses compared to which round they are out of and it's a mixed bag. None really from one more than the other. As far as jumping them, I don't think you are understanding that these birds are over shooting the loft. I sat in the yard ALL day last Tues watching for birds. I watch them come in from over the top of the house, one by one,.........that is from the NE. There were released from the SW. I watched them do the same thing yesterday. So I figured, if we took them further out, they wouldn't fly as far? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know why else they can get out and fly for 2 hours, still find thier way home, all alone, one at a time, but come from the NE.??


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Renee
> Could it be that the birds are not healthy. Such things as resperatory ailments and others could be effecting their performance. Do you treat for these ailments. I also agree that you may want to back them up and start over closer to home. With those losses from such short distance something is up. The hawks could be the reason. If they are not routing you may want to take them in the four directions a mile or two and get them familiar with your emediate area. I am just brainstorming here. My old birds do not want to route much. I have my young birds flying an hour to an hour and a half. A few groups route the whole time. The molt may be kicking your YBs down also. This is the time a year when you have to chase a few out of the loft due to the molt. Their is the old addage that it is etiher bad health or bad birds, and we know that the birds are good. I also changed my food up a bit and added more corn and barley and I seemed to get more energy out of the birds. You may evaluate your feeding. This is one area that I know little about, but I am sure that there are people in here that have worked on feeding. I have a freind in Albuquerque that raises three round and flies each one out of a different loft. Most of us do not have this kind of time. Good luck. I am slowly learning why most people raise so many young birds. Let me know if you want a kit of youngbirds for next year, I am trying to find fliers who will test them out for me. We do not have much competition here. I sent 15 to Albuquerque this year. Trying to save a few pennies to fly futurities. Good Luck
> Randy


Randy, I don't believe the birds are sick. And yes, I treat for Cocci, they have been wormed and treated for Resp. I don't think they are being overfed. I measure my feed faithfully and know how much they are eating at one time. This is not the first year that this has happened to us. I'll have to write more later and give some background on the previous years. Then you'll see what I mean.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee
I was not talking about overfeeding, but the mixture you are using. I seem to get more energy out of the birds when I use more carbos in their diet. You may have some hawks that have a bead on your loft. I hope you can render your problems. Good Luck
Randy


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Drag*

HI RENEE, I was glad to hear that the birds have been basket trained so that's no prpblem.I do understand that birds will over shoot their loft during a race. This is caused by the drag of other birds from other lofts. In your case there are no other birds pulling (drag) your birds.Its good that you only raised two rounds so that's not a problem , but check to see if the birds that you are losing were bred by a certian pair or pairs of breeders. GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Bad Toss....*



Lovebirds said:


> Well, we finally got our YB's out on their first training toss...........didn't go so terribly well. Took them 1 1/2 miles. 72 birds. My husband built a special crate to fit in the back of his truck and it's built just like the ones on our Combine shipping trailer, so they can learn to eat and drink before they go to their first race. So, we've got 36 birds in each side. My husband calls and says he's letting the first half go. I'm supposed to call him when I see the birds coming in and he'll let the second half go. I wait 10 minutes, no birds, so I call him. He says they are still circling. Wait another 5 minutes and no birds, so I call him again. He says they've left and he hasn't seen them for a few minutes. After about 10 minutes, there's no birds home, so I call him AGAIN. We decide to let the second half go and maybe they will catch up with the first group and SOMEONE will know how to get home.  25 minutes later, one bird comes in all alone. About 5 minutes after that a big group comes in and after counting there is 41 birds. So the first group of 36 plus 5 from the other group have made it home. The rest of the day, we had birds coming in one at a time, up until 7:30 that night. After that, no more birds and we were missing 16. The next day, one bird shows up at 7:30 AM. No more birds came home until after 3:00 that afternoon and only about 6came in so we were still missing 9. Yesterday, 1 came in and today we've had 1 come in so now we're missing 7 I think. If the one that just came in is any indication of how they are fairing.......it's not good. I really don't know how he flew home. I've had to go pick up lost grounded birds that were in the shape he is in. It was sheer determination on his part. Now, all you racing folks that read this........what do you think went wrong? I've got my theories but I wonder if any of you come to the same conclusion.


 Lot of good questions have already been asked, and suggestions or ideas offered. But, unless I missed it, what time of day was the release done, and what were the weather conditions, K factor, etc ? Have you released from this release point before, or was this the first time ?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Lot of good questions have already been asked, and suggestions or ideas offered. But, unless I missed it, what time of day was the release done, and what were the weather conditions, K factor, etc ? Have you released from this release point before, or was this the first time ?


I don't know about the K factor. Didn't check. 1 1/2 miles? They could have walked home from there. They were released at 8:20 or so. After taking them to the 10 mile......I guess you read that post. Took them back to 10 mile drop yesterday. Two separate releases, 20 min. apart. 1st group home in 24 min. 2nd group straggled in all day.??? We're setting records here on temps the rest of this week. The birds are on lock down now. I'm "babysitting" the loft constantly, watching for any birds that might come in, had 5 this AM so far, making sure they get water and feed. Hopefully it will cool down some next week. The ones that are coming in late, have "feel like" temps of 100 to 104 to deal with. Say what you will (not just you Warren), but it's do blankity blank blank hot to be flying or anything else. I've spent the last two day out in the yard, just sitting and sweating. I figured if I'm asking them to fly in it, the least I can do is sit and wait for them to come in. My husband thinks I'm crazy i guess........ I'm not putting my birds up in this heat any more. Period.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The heat on tosses will effect them if they are out in flight long. But the short toss shouldnt. Now On lock down they get less flying time and get out of shape fast Hampers there returns later. They will only exersise as they see fit But thats is choice. I would look at why they do not route out. That is odd on birds not routing. Do you control there feeding And you have mentioned trees do you have a lot of hawks in your area. Most often by 3 months birds are routing And are they on the hungry side when they were tossed.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

re lee said:


> The heat on tosses will effect them if they are out in flight long. But the short toss shouldnt. Now On lock down they get less flying time and get out of shape fast Hampers there returns later. They will only exersise as they see fit But thats is choice. I would look at why they do not route out. That is odd on birds not routing. Do you control there feeding And you have mentioned trees do you have a lot of hawks in your area. Most often by 3 months birds are routing And are they on the hungry side when they were tossed.


No one we know can figure out why they don't route. When we first started loft flying this year, the first round only, they would fly for 45 min. to an hour. Then once we got the second round up and put them all together, most of them would fly for that long. I remember one day and one time only, they were all up flying and got out of sight for maybe 10 minutes and then came right back. After they landed and trapped and I fed them, I went to count them (I always do that to make sure everyone is in before I lock the bobs) and we were missing 10 birds. I told my husband and we stood out and waited about 10 min and didn't see them so went in the house. Had to have been a good 30 minutes went by and while I was cooking breakfast I saw shadows go over. I yelled at my husband and he went out to see and 10 birds came in, landed and trapped. So they must have been gone for about 45 min. or so. That is the only time I can remember them actually leaving and being gone for any amount of time. Our birds have been doing this since we moved here and raised our first babies in 2002. This is not just a "this year" thing. As far as hawks, we do see one once in a while. We have actually lost 4 birds off of the loft from hawk attacks and had 2 birds attacked but escape right here in the yard since we moved here. So, no, not in MY YARD, do we have a real hawk problem, but there are open fields to the east of us and to the southwest and they are sort of like little mini valleys because we sit at the top of a hill. I would assume that there are hawks that cruise those big fields in search of food. Could it be possible that the birds know that there are hawks out there and don't want to leave? I don't know.........it's strange and bazaar and I know that this is not the normal way for pigeons to act, but mine do.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Renee
> I was not talking about overfeeding, but the mixture you are using. I seem to get more energy out of the birds when I use more carbos in their diet. You may have some hawks that have a bead on your loft. I hope you can render your problems. Good Luck
> Randy



I feed, right now Browns Feed. The Developer and the Breeder, mixed half and half. One is 14% and the other is 12%. We have trouble, no not trouble, we can't get feed around here. I would love to mix my own. I travel 2 1/2 hours one way to get feed.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The more you tell of the situation the more it sounds like hawks to me. My birds scatter when hawks are near. Last year I had a few in the neighborhood killing chickens. My birds would see them take to flight for hours untill the hawk cleared the area. Sounds to me like hawks are splitting your birds up. You may try a toss in the opposite direction from a few miles and see if the birds come good. You may try single tossing the birds and see what happens. The hawks may not key in on the birds if they are flying alone. I read where one fancier drives down the road at 30 miles an hour and tosses the birds out one at a time. 
My food mixture is similar to yours. I mix excello breeder and their premium mixture. I do add a few sunflower seeds. On this mix last year my old birds did not want to route. This year I am using the same mixture, but adding 25 pounds of corn to 100 pounds of mix. I am trying to locate some barley to lighten it up even more. The energy level has increased dramatically since I added the corn. 
I liked Van Elsakers idea of one food year round. He adds a bit of protein for the breeders and a few peanuts for long distance races, but sticks to the same mix year round. His mix has 50% Corn, 20% peas, then a mixture of numerous other grains: Oats, Wheat, Braley, Dari, Cardi and Sunflower pits. On a whim and to cut feed costs I added the corn at $5 for 50lbs. The new mix puts me at about 45% corn and about 25% peas with 11 other grains and seeds. My young birds are flying much longer and seem to have more energy. 
It could be other things besides the feed, but they are flying better. Good luck with your training.
Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> .....The ones that are coming in late, have "feel like" temps of 100 to 104 to deal with. Say what you will (not just you Warren), but it's do blankity blank blank hot to be flying or anything else. I've spent the last two day out in the yard, just sitting and sweating. I figured if I'm asking them to fly in it, the least I can do is sit and wait for them to come in. My husband thinks I'm crazy i guess........ I'm not putting my birds up in this heat any more. Period.


 
Love Birds,

I really can't say I disagree with you. Today in this area the heat index was 110, but of course it is all relative. My personal opinion, it is considerable more dangerous to train in this kind of weather. I myself ended up seeking treatment for dehydration and muscle spasms. I thought I knew what pain was...I didn't. 

I am training sparingly, only in the early AM, and at less stressful distances. In my neck of the woods, exactly how far and where is "TOP SECRET" information !!  ........ 

But, do I really want to push the envelope now, when 4 weeks from the first race, I have yet to lose one young bird from a training toss ? Well, today I had to drive several hours to another state to pick up a lost bird, to keep my record spotless... No, I believe in starting early, often, and in confidence building exercises. 

One must measure the amount of extra physical stress which is being given because of these conditions, and adjust accordingly. So perhaps sitting out waiting for the birds is a really good and brilliant ideal. Certainly you will have a much better "feel" for the task at hand. 

As far as reasons for a bad training toss, and sooner or later we encounter one, I always try to determine what factors may have caused or contributed to the poor performance, and what could I do differently in the future ? Sometimes, we are not able to see a pattern, or something we can really point to. Sometimes it just remains a mystery...

Perhaps the real question should be, what should be on our check lists ? Many of the good comments given so far, are listing items which may be factors. Far as I know, very little documented research, has actually been devoted to the training of racing pigeons. Since there is a limited understanding of how this bird finds home in the first place, it stands to reason that the "perfect" training system or manual, has yet to be developed or published. 

So far this year, for me, more tosses at shorter distances, seems to have worked so far. Now, I just want to avoid a major mistake over the next 4 weeks till race time. Those who started late, and are far behind, will generally push too hard to catch up. How really hard do you want to push in 90 to 100 degree + heat and high humidity ? Getting the correct balance is what makes a great loft manager and then in turn, winners.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I just wanted to share some info I learned about the Espo Challenge race. I think this may have effected Warren also. His Toss the 24th from 12 miles went very wrong. He released the birds in two groups. The first group arived ok, but the second was a smash. He lost all but 20 birds from the second release. Makes you think of K factor, radar, sun spots, and aliens. One of our club members lost all three entries in the release. We all know that Frank puts on a good race and knows what he is doing. There may be more correlations with losses. Here is the site www.esposeastcoastchallenge.com
Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I just wanted to share some info I learned about the Espo Challenge race. I think this may have effected Warren also. His Toss the 24th from 12 miles went very wrong. He released the birds in two groups. The first group arived ok, but the second was a smash. He lost all but 20 birds from the second release. Makes you think of K factor, radar, sun spots, and aliens. One of our club members lost all three entries in the release. We all know that Frank puts on a good race and knows what he is doing. There may be more correlations with losses. Here is the site www.esposeastcoastchallenge.com
> Randy


Of course I'm very sorry he lost all those birds, but at least it makes me feel that this is probably due to something that possibly is out of my control? I just wonder, where do all those birds go? Why doesn't someone find at least SOME of them??


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Lost a 1/3 of the entire YB team ?!*



hillfamilyloft said:


> I just wanted to share some info I learned about the Espo Challenge race. I think this may have effected Warren also. His Toss the 24th from 12 miles went very wrong. He released the birds in two groups. The first group arived ok, but the second was a smash. He lost all but 20 birds from the second release. Makes you think of K factor, radar, sun spots, and aliens. One of our club members lost all three entries in the release. We all know that Frank puts on a good race and knows what he is doing. There may be more correlations with losses. Here is the site www.esposeastcoastchallenge.com
> Randy


 Randy,

Thanks for update, I was not watching very closely at the ECC. I lost two out of six SFL USA birds in those training tosses..... ...... 

Now here is the thousands of dollars in entry fees question. Were the losses from those of poor genes or breeding ? Or was it because a trainer jerked them down the road to fast, and released birds which were not in good condition into the blistering heat, they got caught up in flocks from the 600 fanciers in the region, got off course and were not healthy enough or in condition enough to make it home ? 

Or do you subscribe to the theory that the massive increase in UFO sightings around New Jersey military installations, is somehow related ! ?.......


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The question would have to be asked, were the two trainning groups different? One came well the other was lost. Was one older than the other. The 3rd toss from 12 miles, was that too fast down the road? Why two groups and not 5 or 6 with so many birds? All good questions. 12 miles does not seem like a distance that you could loose that many birds from. The heat may be the difference, but I think the birds got off track before the heat became a factor. The birds should be able to fly 20 minutes in Death Valley. My thoughts are either the birds are not up to health standards or that the aliens have landed. 
Randy


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Read July15 Issue Of Racing Pigeon Diegest*



hillfamilyloft said:


> I just wanted to share some info I learned about the Espo Challenge race. I think this may have effected Warren also. His Toss the 24th from 12 miles went very wrong. He released the birds in two groups. The first group arived ok, but the second was a smash. He lost all but 20 birds from the second release.
> Randy


HI RANDY, In the JULY 15 2006 issue of the THE RACING PIGEON DIGEST, there is an intresting artical by GORDEN CHALMERS. "NAVIGATION of PIGEONS and the EFFECTS of INFRASOUND"this could explain the mystery of the first group coming OK and why the second group came so badly.If you have the JULY 15 issue read the artical and see what you think. GEORGE


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee
I read some info on Josh Thone's site that may pertain to you. He states that if the birds just buzz your head and do not route that something is wrong. He also has his feed mixture on his page. I noticed he also has a large amount of corn in his mixture. When training my old birds the just buzzed my head and did not route. I thought it might be resperatory so I treated for resperatory. It did not make a difference. I never could get them to route. We did not race so I did not continue with them. Now since I bumped up the corn and switched my mixture around my youngbirds are flying off for about an hour and then comming back and circling for another 20 minutes. The seem to have more energy than ever. They are also flying very high where my old birds were hugging the trees. I do not know whether it was the feed or not, but whatever it was it worked. Here is the link to his page and another page I found that has links to many fliers in Europe.
http://stuart.malcolm4.users.btopenworld.com/link.htm
http://www.thone.be/
Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'll go check out the links. Thanks.
I thought I'd just throw this out there real quick. Last 4 tosses the birds went 15 miles. The first group came home in about 2 hours. The rest straggeled in all day. I talked to a fellow lady flyer of mine. She said her birds had been doing the same thing, so she jumped them out from 20 miles to 40 miles. Said they are coming home like champs now. So.......this AM, hubby jumped ours from 15 miles to 30 miles. They were released at 9:15 and all but 2 were home at 10:16. The last two came in a few minutes later. No more watching for birds all day long. I STILL believe they were overflying the loft and just flying around period instead of coming home. Today was the first GOOD training toss we've had so far. I really think that we, me included, think that somehow we are "teaching" the birds to come home from short distances. We are not teaching these birds anything. They are homing pigeons and they either got it or they ain't. Period. I'm not saying take them 50 miles the first toss, but I'm really starting to believe that these 1 and 5 and 8 miles tosses are a waste of our time. I'm doing things alot different next year and we'll see what happens. What I've been doing the past 4 years certainly wasn't working.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I went to futher first tosses years ago. Why because if you let the birds mature and start themat training about a month befor race season you have birds that are seven months to three months old that have flown around routed well I would start at 20 miles and move up from there. I still do not think they are over flying Might be routing but with stragglers that is odd to. Perhaps still it has something to the release area. I do not know but if you find a way that brings results and reduces the number you loose Go for it.


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