# Performance Only



## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

I find very interesting the various posts about specific breeding programs to achieve specific goals to a fanciers breeding and racing results. Our program is very simple and a lot less complicated then most. Our selection for breeders is based on the ,"COMPASS or HOMING INSTINCT , PERFORMANCE, TOUGHNESS and EXCELLENT HEALTH ".
We practice the simple and basic principle of genetics , "LIKES BREED LIKES and HEREDITY IS HANDED DOWN FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT".
We consistently breed from pigeons that possess , INTELLIGENCE , NAVIGATING ABILITY , TOUGHNESS AND EXCELLENT HEALTH. We give special attention to birds that fly the tough and long distances races as young birds and yearlings.
We do not practice any specific program like linebreeding , inbreeding or outcrossing like many of the glamorous and sometimes mysterious alluring theories discussed by many of the experts. PERFORMANCE IS OUR ONLY GOAL AND BASES FOR OUR MATING SELECTIONS ! We believe to achieve performance you must breed from performance . If a fancier is not breeding from winners , breeders of winners or their direct children of these proven breeders or racers , he is in big trouble. Performance , homing ability , toughness and excellent health must be present in each generation on both sides of the pedigree. A bird must produce or he or she will be eliminated from the breeding loft - no exceptions . We have practiced this method for over 25 years , we believe in it and our results . You can check us out at 
www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

bob prisco said:


> I find very interesting the various posts about specific breeding programs to achieve specific goals to a fanciers breeding and racing results. Our program is very simple and a lot less complicated then most. Our selection for breeders is based on the ,"COMPASS or HOMING INSTINCT , PERFORMANCE, TOUGHNESS and EXCELLENT HEALTH ".
> We practice the simple and basic principle of genetics , "LIKES BREED LIKES and HEREDITY IS HANDED DOWN FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT".
> We consistently breed from pigeons that possess , INTELLIGENCE , NAVIGATING ABILITY , TOUGHNESS AND EXCELLENT HEALTH. We give special attention to birds that fly the tough and long distances races as young birds and yearlings.
> We do not practice any specific program like linebreeding , inbreeding or outcrossing like many of the glamorous and sometimes mysterious alluring theories discussed by many of the experts. PERFORMANCE IS OUR ONLY GOAL AND BASES FOR OUR MATING SELECTIONS ! We believe to achieve performance you must breed from performance . If a fancier is not breeding from winners , breeders of winners or their direct children of these proven breeders or racers , he is in big trouble. Performance , homing ability , toughness and excellent health must be present in each generation on both sides of the pedigree. A bird must produce or he or she will be eliminated from the breeding loft - no exceptions . We have practiced this method for over 25 years , we believe in it and our results . You can check us out at
> www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com


Your achievements are admirable, and your breeding technique obviously works for you. And you apparently have genetically "fixed" the desirable traits in your birds. But as you state on your website, that you have been flying the same family of birds for 25 years, are you not then by default using linebreeding whether you choose to actively call it that or not? It appears that you have developed your family well enough that you don't need to look at the common ancestors anymore. 

The goal for the people who are line breeding or inbreeding is to do both - make selections based on performance _and_ pedigree to fix the traits and make them predictable. Whether or not we do those things well is what separates the successful and the wannabes.



> We have flown the same bloodlines for over 25 years. Our main family of birds is "HVR" Huyskens- Van Riel .We fly them straight and crossed with "IMBRECHT" and "#259 GRIZZLE BLOOD " .The #259 grizzle blood is 75% HVR.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

Performance being are only goal and working with the same group of birds for over 25 years. Our breeders are selected based on results - I can only leave it up to individuals that know more about 'GENETICS" and various breeding practices to call it a specific practice ( linebreeding , inbreeding , etc.) Just sharing our ideas and hope that it can be of some help.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I'm totally in agreement. "Breed the best to the best and hope for the best". We have a member of our club who is a retired geneticist. Obviously he has spent years studying how to apply his knowledge to pigeons. He's had lots of success yet after all these years, the birds that are part of what he considers his top breeders are birds that he has obtained with no pedigrees, only great results.
I would never fault those who have had success with using in-breeding or line-breeding, but my background is in the horse business and if you are familiar with the problems in the Quarter Horse breed with things like HERDA , HYPP and other genetic disorders it takes someone with a real understanding to make those techniques work. 
Just my opinion........what works.....works!


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

what people are not telling everyone is that even common unrelated birds carry double copy's of gene alleles and when mated with others with the same you get a baby with the extra GOOD without the problems of inbreeding . That is in part why strong selection based on winning works.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Wish I could afford some grizzles of that caliber.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

bob prisco said:


> Performance being are only goal and working with the same group of birds for over 25 years. Our breeders are selected based on results - I can only leave it up to individuals that know more about 'GENETICS" and various breeding practices to call it a specific practice ( linebreeding , inbreeding , etc.) Just sharing our ideas and hope that it can be of some help.


I very much appreciate hearing from people who have had success. 

I'm just saying that it sounds like you are employing line breeding practices whether you call it that or not - or whether you pay attention to it or not. If you're working with the same group of birds you had 25 years ago . . . well, it sounds like line breeding worked well for you in combination with your strict performance-based selection. In my mind, it confirms that the combination of those criteria works.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I hope you can see this . I would say this is an inbred hen.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> Wish I could afford some grizzles of that caliper .


Whats caliper????


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Do you have this bird Eric? I'm a big fan of the "Vegas Pair".






ERIC K said:


> I hope you can see this . I would say this is an inbred hen.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

raftree3 said:


> Do you have this bird Eric? I'm a big fan of the "Vegas Pair".


No not this bird I have a daughter from her.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Whats caliper????


I think she probably means caliber.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I have a Hen off this pair too. This father quest 2340 would be that other Hens brother I think.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

I believe that inbreeding in conjunction with performance criteria is employing sound logic. Using on of the two methods should result in forward progress, but using both should be even more effective.
With inbreeding you increase the probability of concentrating unwanted genes, but it is not a certainty. With pigeons ability to propagate as they do it is relatively easy to identify unwanted characteristics and cull those birds that have them.
The reference by "Raftree3" above to horses and HERDA and HYPP is a valid concern, but for a number of reasons it seems unlikely that one bird will be used in the population to the degree that the identified horses have been in that case. The likelihood for such a genetic defect to become fixed in pigeons is not very likely I don't believe.
If a bird can't remain healthy it is very unlikely to generate a race record of consequence or to generate progeny that do either, and consequently it would be eliminated from the gene pool?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I can honestly say that I can agree with most everything that has been posted I only put the pedigree's up to show that I'm not living in the dark ages that was suggested in a different post and will use what is available to move my family of birds forward. I still use the best to best thinking just like bob prisco said they have been doing for years and I'm sure each person have their way of screening out the duds. These two hen which would be considered inbred and extremely inbred have proven their breeding potency to a certain degree or I wouldn't have kept them. I would like to add that they are not the end all answers for successful pigeon racing. Just like ejb said , using both methods should be even more effective.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

grifter said:


> I think she probably means caliber.


you are more than probably right, which is pretty easy to figure out.. for most.
yes, the ipad wanted to say caliper.. it's spell check is not always the word you want, you don't check it, so it gets posted. ..anyone with an ipad understands...lol..


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi Bob, I remember talking to you in 2007 when I was getting back into pigeon racing. I did get some great young birds from several lofts in 2008. Of the 16 races they flew that year they won 8 of them. I have since refined my breeding program down to were 95% of the breeders in my loft go back to 5 key birds from that season. Breeding is an art and most racers do not have the stock sence needed to move forward in their breeding program.

It is as in every other aspect of life. The 3% rule falls into play here as well. No matter what it is. on the average only 3% of people will excell at any given thing. Most pigeon racers are just that "pigeon racers". They ether lack the stock sence or the drive to apply it. What I am trying to say is that 97% of all pigeon racers for no lack of trying will fail to inprove the quallity of their flock.


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Ace:

Do you believe that the 3% rule also applies to the birds themselves? Only 3 out of 100 will be any good?


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Ace In The Hole has hit the nail on the head, as they say. Some people will not move forward because of a lack of commitment to expend the time and effort required, and some people are not able to identify key factors. The breeding of any livestock is largely genetic science, but there is also an element of art to it. Some people have a seeming sixth sense that allows them to advance more rapidly or completely than most, and some people are just not in tune to the breeding and family development aspect of this sport.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Granny Smith said:


> Ace:
> 
> Do you believe that the 3% rule also applies to the birds themselves? Only 3 out of 100 will be any good?


Not that they "will not be any good" but as for top racers and/or breeders, yes. That is for the 97%. 

The other 3% will move their family of birds forward and increase the % of quallity birds produced. Most pigeon racers, even those who breed the best to the best do not grade each of their breeders by type, conformation, keel, wing and so on before paring the birds. Before you can breed a higher % of quallity birds you must first know what makes a quallity bird a quallity bird. Not just that this bird won a race and this bird won two races so then they should produce me race winners... There is so much more to it than that or we would all have lofts full of top quallity racers and breeders. You have to know what quallities to breed for and what to thy to breed out.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

The article on our site www.priscoracingpigeonloft.com 
" Racing Sport is a Big Gamble" - Will give you a idea of what we look for when selecting new birds for ourselves . But it is always a "GAMBLE".


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bob prisco said:


> Performance being are only goal and *working with the same group of birds for over 25 years*. Our breeders are selected based on results - I can only leave it up to individuals that know more about 'GENETICS" and various breeding practices to call it a specific practice ( linebreeding , inbreeding , etc.) Just sharing our ideas and hope that it can be of some help.


 Thank you for sharing. In your particular individual case, it proves a theory I have, that an individual with an ability to select quality individuals from a group of ordinary, can achieve much progress, even if they are totally unaware of various theories, and have no idea what various terms might apply to the techniques they are using. You may not even have known that after your selections were made, that when you paired these birds, perhaps best to best, you were employing inbreeding, line breeding, crossing, etc. etc. at various times over a quarter of a century. 

At the same token, I see no evidence to suggest that those schooled in institutions of higher learning, within the field of genetics, are any better at breeding racing pigeons, then the fancier who may not even understand the terms. So theory and/or ideological ideas, or understanding of those ideas, are not really what matters, it is the selection process of which most are only very average, that is the mathematical fact. I presume, that the reason why most will not really breed any better, is for this simple idea I have, that most simply can't figure out which of their pigeons are the "best", because if unable to figure out which is the best, how does one ever pair best to best ? Health, vitality, homing instinct, ability to come into and stay in form, all play a role in a bird's ability to be a racing champion. It's very obvious, a successful pigeon breeder need not be a geneticist in order to be successful, but he does need the stock sense to figure out which are the "good" birds, and which are just plain ordinary. 

I suspect that some think that knowledge of genetic principals will allow them, by way of some "technique", or some tool in a tool box, to somehow magically breed exceptional pigeons from a very ordinary breeding colony, and it may only be just me, but that just sounds like a recipe for very ordinary results, which is what most produce. Find or somehow acquire good pigeons, and then keep only good pigeons for breeding is a pretty simple road map, just so few will actually be able to follow it, because the ability to pick a good pigeon from very average, well apparently is just not all that common.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ERIC K said:


> I hope you can see this . I would say this is an inbred hen.


Yes, I would say inbreeding has been employed, but it is always a matter of degrees. Here is one which is much more inbred then the example you listed. I have actually seen cases where five generations of brother x sister was used.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Yes, I would say inbreeding has been employed, but it is always a matter of degrees. Here is one which is much more inbred then the example you listed. I have actually seen cases where five generations of brother x sister was used.


I would agree that is much more inbred. Have you ever crossed any of the young from this mating and if so what were your results ? 

Everything I have read about building an inbred family states that sooner or later one must cross to get maximum value from the inbreeding. I wounder where that idea applies to your family.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I've heard a number of people say things along the lines of "these are inbreds that win!" bragging, of course. And I've heard others saying "those might be too inbred to fly well."

Both statements are implying that in general, inbred birds have a disadvantage. On average, do you think that is true? I would think that it depends on the parents and it depends on the breeder. But that's true whether the bird is inbred or not. So does the mere fact that a bird is inbred - despite the other variables - hurt it's chances?


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I have to say something I have a pair I put together and they are cousins, they bred 4 winners out of 5 birds, I used the brother and sister of this pair and crossed to another blood the babies from the cross always came home but not winners only 1/4 blood , I then took another two cousins with the same blood as the pair of cousins that produced winners and put them together and 'Bingo" so I say the apple can not get to for from the tree.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

Inbreeding when used properly is a very effective method to advance desired traits. The fact of the matter is, in nature inbreeding has fixed the various breeds and varieties that exist. I don't believe that God created Robins, Cardinals and etc. These birds have all developed as a result of inbreeding over the centuries. The weak perished, and the superior birds survived to carry on the progression.
With the racing pigeon the stockman has the responsibility to identify the superior birds and use them only to go forward. That is the "fly in the ointment" as they say.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ERIC K said:


> I would agree that is much more inbred. Have you ever crossed any of the young from this mating and if so what were your results ?
> 
> Everything I have read about building an inbred family states that sooner or later one must cross to get maximum value from the inbreeding. I wounder where that idea applies to your family.


 In my case, with the examples listed, I simply gave up on that particular line. I simply passed them on to my loft partner and he has the thirty or so pairs which are all descended from the foundation male. I gave up on the line so I could devote my energies and resources to a line I judged to be more productive and significantly more advanced. 

Everyone always wants or feels the need to say "Yes, But"....always concerned about that future cross. That day will come, when I am able to put my hands onto something that is better then what I already own, then we shall have a cross. At this exact moment in time, I would have to lower the bar in order to effect a cross. I have no concerns about becoming "too inbred", as the more inbred the perfect specimen, the better. If the inbreeding depression begins to affect racing ability, then the family line becomes even more valuable as breeders, because the most effective crosses are the result of crossing two very inbred lines. 

Best I can figure, I could be well into the 2020's or 2030's before that becomes a real issue. More likely the family line will last longer then me, as I may need a new body long before this line needs a cross. 

I am going to share a video here, which relates to the topic. Of what happens when we take a specie and select a trait and zero in on that trait, and select based on that trait. In this video, it is a Russian experiment using the Silver Fox which was started in 1959. The Silver Fox was domesticated by using selective breeding , by selecting the 1%, and then repeating the process. Look what happened using selective breeding and inbreeding !! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoB0pdhxfZs


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes I have seen that show about the silver fox. Very interesting to say the least. 

I wonder what your one trait is when selecting takes place at your breeding loft? or is there more to it and have you seen the changes in your pigeons . I have read that the birds will get smaller over time with more inbreeding. 

I'm sure since your birds are ludo based you have heard of two pigeons named "VEDETJE" and "CRACKSKE" I don't know your birds but I would guess that if Ludo himself could pick two champion's out of a crowd then that would be the place to look for anything good enough to cross with . For those that don't know those birds they were bred by Peter Theunis or Embregts Theunis, sold at auction to Ludo who bred two champions from them. I've heard they are the best you can get anywhere if one could afford any. Just thinking out loud.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

bob prisco 

thank you for your post, i m still learning. i get birds from guys who fly that do that very well. big thanks to those guys you know who you are. no one talks of just breeding great race birds to great race birds and getting more great birds. inbred birds and breeding a family of birds i m not against, but i dont want to play around with something i dont fully understand. i m simple that way but i know that if i breed a great grandfather to his great grand daughter in pigeons i m sure its not going to harm the gene pool, but if dont understand it in its fullness maybe a bird person like me should just worry about flying my birds and getting them home on race day.

there is so many ideas out there about, wings, eyes, training, vents, body , inbreeding and such. 

i like the idea of widow hood cuz it makes sense to me. there is a form and a stance i like for my hens and cocks to have and to look like. the way they respond to each other and to me is important too.

when i got into birds 20 something years ago and i just got back into it three years ago, my friend told me if a bird comes home on his own even a few days late dont rule him out he still came home. i think that was wise.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

warren thanks for the video, with pigeons i was told the power of ten, 1 in 10 is a homing pigeon, 1 in 100 is a good homing pigeon, 1 in 1000 is a great homing pigeon as a hobby lets just keep trying to get the best we can, then race them. lets breed them to get home faster and faster. 

so i guess we should only breed that percent or really great birds and not worry so much about inbreds


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

you say faster and faster, If you just breed for fast only, the homing ability would be going and so will the birds.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

When a fancier stops making the " COMPASS , HOMING INSTINCT and NAVIGATING ABILITY " his TOP GOAL or MAJOR PRIORITY in his breeding program ,he is going in the wrong direction.
Without the ability of a bird to "HOME" what do you have ?
Sometimes fanciers take this ability for granted , it can be easily lost.
I know of only one way to determine if a bird has it - he must prove it.
Training and race competition are the only way.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Bob I agree, 100% I have 10 birds that are flying in old birds 2013, its very hard for me to lose them.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Lovelace,
I'm taking it they're your YB's you did well with last year? With a good season under their wings now and more mature you should kick some butt again this year.Sounds like you got it Going On.I think with certain Good birds they come into their better form as yearlings.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes, the two best birds went into the stock loft, three are in the old bird races one of the three has a first and third place win already, one of the other has a third, we have a A&B race each trip first race was 200, second was 300, third was back to 200, next one is 500 but the way the weather looks this week I don't think will fly. But to tell you the truth I not crazy about old bird, I perfer young bird season.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Roger Siemens said:


> warren thanks for the video, with pigeons i was told the power of ten, 1 in 10 is a homing pigeon, 1 in 100 is a good homing pigeon, 1 in 1000 is a great homing pigeon as a hobby lets just keep trying to get the best we can, then race them. lets breed them to get home faster and faster.
> 
> so i guess we should only breed that percent or really great birds and not worry so much about inbreds


 Well, just so we don't get off track with a discussion on breeding pigeons together that are in some way related, Bob is 100% correct. It is a bit amazing, that we have to state what should be obvious, but the reality is, it does have to be restated, and restated every time. The very first thing, before anything else, is you must first establish that any candidate considered for the breeding colony, must first and foremost be a "Homing Pigeon". 

If one does not first establish that, then Bob is 100% correct, nothing else is really going to matter. Certainly, breeding two pigeons together that have less then great homing ability, is a waste of time and resources. And if they are related, (inbreeding) then you are simply setting the very average or even poor homing ability into your colony. 

And before one even has any business pairing relatives together (IMHO) they better be your best, well above average pigeons in terms of homing ability. As breeding very average relatives together is more likely to reverse any progress you have made. So, it is a very sharp two edged sword. And yes, Bob practices Inbreeding and Crossing, even if he never viewed it as such, because he maintains a strain, and in order to do that, there has to be common ancestors somewhere in the background. If one has a "straight" line, then one has an inbred line. No such thing as a strain, without some common ancestors, it is just not possible to have a strain, where all the ancestors are totally unrelated. I have no idea, how someone can refer to their "family" of pigeons, and all of them are totally unrelated in all of the pairings. But, you will always have those fanciers who will insist they don't "believe" in "In-breeding" where the "Homing Pigeon" itself, is a product of inbreeding, difficult to find a fancier in the USA, that has pigeons which did not originate at some point from pigeons imported into the USA, the offspring of which filled thousands of lofts. Most lofts in USA I dare say if one could trace back a hundred or so generations, would have many common relatives in the background. Anyone ever own a pigeon that somewhere in last couple dozen generations had a Janssen pigeon in it's background ? If there are a million Janssen pigeons in the world, you think it is possible they all have some common relatives ? Obviously one of the most successful inbred lines in history.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovelace said:


> Yes, the two best birds went into the stock loft, three are in the old bird races one of the three has a first and third place win already, one of the other has a third, we have a A&B race each trip first race was 200, second was 300, third was back to 200, next one is 500 but the way the weather looks this week I don't think will fly. But to tell you the truth I not crazy about old bird, I perfer young bird season.



I think one of the factor's which has a huge bearing on a fancier's breeding success has to do with the depth of the bench. One fancier's "Winners" may only have a few wins to their credit, while other seasoned veterans, like a local fancier who comes to mind. Before a bird can graduate to the breeding loft, the bird may have been in as many as 50 or more races, and he reserves those which have more then a dozen wins to their credit. No need to really be concerned if the bird is a homing pigeon, since after the bird has reached IF or AU Champion Bird status, or has a dozen "500 Mile Day Bird" diplomas, well more then likely, the bird is a homing pigeon. After five race seasons, a bird is either a "good" pigeon or it is not. If it has won enough events, it may have won a spot in the breeding section, but it is going to have to start producing winners out of turn or else it simply does not stay. Once one is at that stage, it is a lot easier to debate if one should pair their two best champions together, even if they are related, or one can debate if they should be paired to completely unrelated birds. Either way, by my thinking, the odds are the birds should at some point, produce something as good as one of the parents, and if very lucky, maybe something even a bit better. When at that level, even producing more of the same, would be success in my book, but hey, that is me.


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## derf (Aug 8, 2012)

bob prisco said:


> When a fancier stops making the " COMPASS , HOMING INSTINCT and NAVIGATING ABILITY " his TOP GOAL or MAJOR PRIORITY in his breeding program ,he is going in the wrong direction.
> Without the ability of a bird to "HOME" what do you have ?
> Sometimes fanciers take this ability for granted , it can be easily lost.
> I know of only one way to determine if a bird has it - he must prove it.
> Training and race competition are the only way.


I absolutely agree with everything you said here Bob, but I would add one more variable which has major influence on a birds performance. I have been racing pigeons for many years, more than I like to think, but the one thing that has grown in importance to me more recently is THE RATE OF MATURIZATION.

Certainly, when I started racing, Old Bird Racing,especially the 4's 5's and 6's, were as highly regarded as YB "Futurities" as we called them. I knew many of the old time Experts who wouldn't think of pushing their Champions to even a 400 mile race before they were 2 years old.
More recently, with all of the increased emphasis on young bird races, including nationally advertised auctions, one-loft races etc. there is more focus on fast-maturing young birds. There even have been systems developed to cause a bird to mature faster.

However, there are still some older, close-bred families that don't mature that fast. I'm sure many of us have had more than one racer that was a terrible performer as a yb only to come on strong as a yearling and later in life. However, our desire to excel in YB racing has caused us to breed more and more away from this.

I am not criticizing the current trends, but I am a firm believer that some of the young birds who didn't perform could possibly become champions as they do mature.

Derf


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Good point derf.
With all the YB Specialists anymore they'll never get to find out or realize that.Birds are never given a chance to prove their genetic capability.Plenty of birds out there that have come on and proved to be top birds in their 2nd/3rd year.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

thank you guys. 

warren i feel your right, the homing pigeons had better be the best homing pigeons as far as ability before breeding to family? as a beginner in this hobby and love for the pigeons really i feel i should both perfect my ability to train as well as breed them, thus building the birds gene pool as well as there homing instinct, and ability. i feel that i should not worry to much about breeding inbreds until i ve got the rest in order?


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Breed together the best you can get and hope you chose right. Don't worry about creating a "family". If your crosses don't work you won't have a family anyways, or at least a winning family.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

derf said:


> I absolutely agree with everything you said here Bob, but I would add one more variable which has major influence on a birds performance. I have been racing pigeons for many years, more than I like to think, but the one thing that has grown in importance to me more recently is THE RATE OF MATURIZATION.
> 
> Certainly, when I started racing, Old Bird Racing,especially the 4's 5's and 6's, were as highly regarded as YB "Futurities" as we called them. I knew many of the old time Experts who wouldn't think of pushing their Champions to even a 400 mile race before they were 2 years old.
> More recently, with all of the increased emphasis on young bird races, including nationally advertised auctions, one-loft races etc. there is more focus on fast-maturing young birds. There even have been systems developed to cause a bird to mature faster.
> ...


Is it maturity that makes todays birds different from years past, or, is it possibly selective breeding and evolution that allows todays birds to fly 400 miles at less than a year old? Also, I think in old birds there is motivation and acquired intelligence/learned experiences that may turn a bird "good". 

Maturity I think applies to the differences in males and females, same in humans, up to a certain age. I don't think it's so much generational as is gender. I don't know. I don't race so maybe I'm not seeing it.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

xueoo 

your probably right. how ever as i learn about this subject, pigeons are truly my passion as i question it seams that there just more good questions to ask. i also am so truly great full to get peoples input and gain higher knowledge on the subject of genetics. when you think even Darwin kept pigeons and they re talked about in the bible as well the breeding of them is very interesting. as we build families of birds and produce better and better homing pigeons, its good to farther what we do know.

at this time i m going to race my birds, then i will get my best birds then at some point i ll find the very best and breed them to mine. all the time doing my homework and asking the simple questions


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

ok guys whats your thinking of the ybs who do develop so much faster? i ve never done the one loft races yet, but as i look at sablondes and other durby race bird are they in fact inbred families? are they as good as the bird ages?


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Genetics and reality are, or can be, two whole separate issues. Genetics can be easily learned and applied to your breeding program. Genetics and performance is not. There are so many variables that it's unpredictable. The same method with the same birds will not result in the same success in 3 different lofts. 

By reading these posts, I can already see some breeders heading down the wrong road. Or an empty road. Or an unpaved road. Or a dirt road. Or came to a fork in the road and went left instead of right. In 2-3 years their views will change again...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Roger Siemens said:


> thank you guys.
> 
> warren i feel your right, the homing pigeons had better be the best homing pigeons as far as ability before breeding to family? as a beginner in this hobby and love for the pigeons really i feel i should both perfect my ability to train as well as breed them, thus building the birds gene pool as well as there homing instinct, and ability. i feel that i should not worry to much about breeding inbreds until i ve got the rest in order?


 I think for the most part, you are correct. Only after one has achieved a certain level of performance, should one bother with the more advanced tools such as breeding close relatives together. 

As far as fast maturing YB's, if you are a YB specialist, does not matter if you are producing YB's which could be champs as 2 or 3 year old, we need fast maturing YB's. So, if one is a YB specialist, one really does not have to be concerned about if they are fast maturing or not. Because if they are not, you most likely never will win three or four races as a YB, so the bird is never retained for breeding anyway. Cause a bird that grows into a champ as a three year old, will never be around that long, if he does not produce the results as a YB. I have no way of knowing, but if a bird is a Champ as a YB, I am willing to wager he be able to race as a 2 or 3 year old as well. Since I don't bother flying OB's for diplomas, it was never really a concern of mine.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

well said Warren, I am a YB specialist also, to me if they can win as young bird they will also win as old bird, And I no from experience, Because I fly old bird every year Just so my club has enough flyers for old bird, what I have done is put all the birds in the old bird race the have not done nothing in young bird, and in most cases they don't do much in old bird, But have notice one thing, you send them to the 500 and you find the best distance birds.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

this is a great way to find out what youve got in aloft in the 500, i know i ll be keeping a close eye on my young birds to see how and what they become. thanks guys


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Roger Siemens said:


> this is a great way to find out what youve got in aloft in the 500, i know i ll be keeping a close eye on my young birds to see how and what they become. thanks guys


 One of my fellow club mates is a YB specialist as myself. One of his prisoner breeders was released by vandals and the bird returned to it's original loft, 1400 airline miles away. So, it could just be me, but I suspect entering a much much shorter 500 mile race, is not necessary to confirm that these birds that can do 330 miles or longer as a YB, can do 500 miles, years later. I suspect, many YB specialists are breeding better long distance pigeons, then many of those OB fliers who pound on their chests that their birds can do 500 miles in a day. 1400+ mile over two weeks, may not exactly be the same thing, but it is still a homing pigeon in my book. Now, just figure out how to cause maybe $50k in prize money, and I let you see if some of these OB "long distance" fliers, can even compete at the distance, flying against birds bred for One Loft Events. Problem is, they never willing to put any money where their smack talk comes from. They typically only compete at most with a few dozen other old guys in their local area, competing for a piece of paper printed out on club printer. So, they are only as good as those few guys with their "long distance" OB's.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

well once again warren your right about the old birds flying with small clubs in a local area, the prizes are small the small group of friends are enjoyable. i d like to fly my birds in large clubs and combine races as older bird as well as young birds. id love to race with any smack talking guy with birds, and even if the prize was not that big just knowing my birds are better is good for me to know. 1400 air miles is a great bird any day in my book, and out of the door by vandals, were they cought? as a 7 or 8 year old child i would sneak into a fellows loft , a few years later i asked to see his birds. He did, a friend ship from this vandal was born. the man in his 70s then became my friend and began to teach me about pigeons, as well as sent me to work,( poop cleaner). Another punk kid gone to the birds, by pigeons.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Roger Siemens said:


> well once again warren your right about the old birds flying with small clubs in a local area, the prizes are small the small group of friends are enjoyable. i d like to fly my birds in large clubs and combine races as older bird as well as young birds. id love to race with any smack talking guy with birds, and even if the prize was not that big just knowing my birds are better is good for me to know. 1400 air miles is a great bird any day in my book, and out of the door by vandals, were they cought? as a 7 or 8 year old child i would sneak into a fellows loft , a few years later i asked to see his birds. He did, a friend ship from this vandal was born. the man in his 70s then became my friend and began to teach me about pigeons, as well as sent me to work,( poop cleaner). *Another punk kid gone to the birds, by pigeons.*


 Funny that you would post that, because that is my story as well. I was a punk kid, vandalizing a local pigeon coop by stealing his birds. I got busted, and had to return the birds with my Dad, and I wanted to crawl into the crack of the side walk as a hid my face in shame. That guy, Earl Ressel, turned out to be an almost forty year mentor, until his passing. Had it not been for folks like him, and pigeons, there is a very good chance, I be living in what they call the "Big House". 

We suspect this local vandalism was a kid or kids, and pigeons died as a result, just hope I do not confront a kid intruder, as I am not exactly sure my reaction would be a nice as my mentor's back in 1967. 

Gotten way off topic, which I am charged to keep us on topic, but I suspect there might be more then the two of us, where pigeons played a role in helping us survive childhood !!


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## derf (Aug 8, 2012)

*Performance*



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> So, it could just be me, but I suspect entering a much much shorter 500 mile race, is not necessary to confirm that these birds that can do 330 miles or longer as a YB, can do 500 miles, years later. I suspect, many YB specialists are breeding better long distance pigeons, then many of those OB fliers who pound on their chests that their birds can do 500 miles in a day.


It's a moot point, but I have flown both ybs and obs for years, and the old expression "different horses for different courses" didn't come about from one of those old "blow-hards." 

In this age of instant or almost instant gratification, this would be impossible to pull off, but if someone was to have a one-loft race for yearlings or two-year olds (they would have to hold the birds that long) I believe the so-called young bird specialists would be terribly disappointed in their 300 mile champions when they got into some hard 500 and 600 mile races.
For sure, there are many true champions out there that can excel from 300 to 500 miles, but I believe you would find that Generally Speaking, the modern speed merchants would not have the continued stamina to win at the distance.

My $.02

Derf


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

well a great thing happened today, i m getting 8 pair of breeding birds on the plain tonight, looking at these great pedigrees perhaps i ll post them, cuz i m happy with them. i will be sharing the birds with the club here. the thing that i m noticing is that they all have common history band # nl-83-1774007 james bond shows up in all the birds last line, and the bond children as well keep showing up, i also have some records of races as well. YAY!!! they are fine looking records for free birds, and a good example good family breeding. 

i ll get my wife to help me upload them to here for you guys to look


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

warren 

i think birds saved alot of us "punk kids" and i know we learned lets hope we can return the favor to some other punk kid.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

hey guys i need hand figureing out how to post pictures/files from my home page to this form you are welcome to go look at the 4 pedigrees i was talking about


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)




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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

inSpeed-1 Heartland Federation 10/21/12-20:41
Weekly Race Report Page 1
Open and Junior Category
Name: BLACKWELL Old Bird Race Flown: 07/13/2012
Release(A): 06:20 Birds: 208 Lofts: 21 Station: BLACKWELL
Weather (Rel) Clear, [email protected], 68 degrees (Arr) Clear, Calm, 70 degrees

POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT
1 VANCE CREE/15 358 AU 08 SPW 1 C-05:35:41 643.206 00.00 1212.436 348
2 DAKOTA LOF/36 246 AU 07 DL BC H 21:25:37 585.354 55.54 1137.592 340
3 DAKOTA LOFT 222 AU 07 DL BC C-05:59:31 2/ 36 01:47 1075.931 331
4 DAKOTA LOFT 283 AU 07 DL BB C-06:22:38 3/ 36 02:10 1050.568 323
5 DAKOTA LOFT 258 AU 07 DL BC H-06:23:26 4/ 36 02:11 1049.712 314
6 ROCKYS ROOS/8 75240 AU 10 CENT DC C-07:00:23 593.714 02:36 1026.061 306
7 DAKOTA LOFT 55 AU 09 DL BC H-07:22:57 5/ 36 03:11 989.694 297
8 TOMS LOFT/8 3620 AU 08 WRP BB C-09:08:24 628.344 03:54 964.659 288
9 KUHN DENNI/13 531 AU 11 TC BB H-07:20:17 568.347 03:33 963.388 280
10 LONETREE L/14 21 AU 09 CVF DC C-09:05:05 624.563 03:56 961.637 271
11 SILVER LOFT/6 6095 AU 06 VIK BC C-08:41:18 605.877 03:59 952.663 263
12 RUBIO BOYS /7 453 AU 10 UNIT BC H-08:53:32 607.106 04:10 944.291 254
13 MIROSLAWSKI/9 6737 AU 09 TC SIL C-08:39:24 596.461 04:11 939.486 245
14 LONETREE LOFT 192 AU 10 SUPE BB C-09:42:14 2/ 14 04:33 931.368 237
15 DAKOTA LOFT 95 AU 09 DL DC H-08:45:59 6/ 36 04:34 916.581 228
16 DROP ZONE /16 6536 AU 11 WRP BB H-10:13:59 629.174 04:58 913.664 220
17 RUBIO BOYS LO 473 AU 10 UNIT DC C-09:45:19 2/ 7 05:02 902.972 211
18 DAKOTA LOFT 277 AU 11 DL RC C-09:50:14 7/ 36 05:38 867.020 203
19 LONETREE LOFT 2 AU 09 CVF DC C-11:20:41 3/ 14 06:12 859.659 194
20 DAKOTA LOFT 38 AU 06 DL DC C-10:04:07 8/ 36 05:52 857.007 185
--------------------------------- Above are 10 percent ------------------------


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I think that AU 08 SPW 358 just might be a champions bird worth his weight in gold. I wonder what Vance Creek was thinking four years ago when he was racing SPW 358 as a youngster ?


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## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> I think that AU 08 SPW 358 just might be a champions bird worth his weight in gold. I wonder what Vance Creek was thinking four years ago when he was racing SPW 358 as a youngster ?


Eric, Ron's bird did excellent on that race and he told me that it is possible the bird made it on the day after dark, as it was there on the ground by the loft when he opened the trap the next morning. On a side note, of the 3 yearlings that were clocked on this last year's 600 mile race in the top 20 overall, at least 2 of the 3 didn't race at all as a youngbird. I don't know if Stacy Nelson (Drop Zone) raced his as a youngbird. The yearling I clocked was bred by my friend Les Mirowslawski who specializes in distance races and also doesn't race youngbirds, just trains them out like I do and Dakota Loft.

Dennis Kuhn
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com

http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Dennis: I think you all did good in that race . There has been some talk in our club about flying that race this year. We will see what happens, you know I'm at least 40 miles north of Ron and Bob B is 24 miles north of me. That put me 94 miles north west of Dakota. I would say that's some good competition. Although I only have a few 2009 birds, my 2010's should be ready for the challenge though.

Ron does have some nice birds and he's in tight with Rick Nanez so his loft is full of kick a_ _ ! pigeons that can win in Young Bird or Old Bird or OLR's.

I myself would like to fly just old birds . I like putting the old birds on the truck and knowing they will be home, no messing around up and down the road miles and miles with a bunch of knuckle head youngsters .


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

derf said:


> It's a moot point, but I have flown both ybs and obs for years, and the old expression "different horses for different courses" didn't come about from one of those old "blow-hards."
> 
> In this age of instant or almost instant gratification, this would be impossible to pull off, but if someone was to have a one-loft race for yearlings or two-year olds (they would have to hold the birds that long) I believe the so-called young bird specialists would be terribly disappointed in their 300 mile champions when they got into some hard 500 and 600 mile races.
> For sure, there are many true champions out there that can excel from 300 to 500 miles, but I believe you would find that Generally Speaking, the modern speed merchants would not have the continued stamina to win at the distance.
> ...


 Maybe you wouldn't have to approach it from that angle. Just find someone who thinks they have great long distance birds. If they are 1400 air line miles from my house, just ship me a few birds and I will turn em lose. If they make it back in good time, then we know they are at least as good as birds from a YB specialist. If we going to talk about stamina, why use 500 or 600 ? Let's use the 1400 mile distance, since we already know our birds can do that distance. Or, just have the distance specialist send his YB's to OLR and we do a 500 YB race, see if those distant boys have the stamina for a 500 as a YB. Either way, find some old guy that thinks he has great long distance birds, and I will dream up an event for his birds to get their wings torn off. 

Cause all too often I hear about slow maturing birds and how they do real good at 600 miles. Maybe reason why them slow birds do so well, is they are flying against so few other birds, and thus less competition. How many clubs have 75+ lofts sending birds to the 600 in the USA ? Our 130+ organization dropped the 600 for lack of interest. Lucky to get two dozen guys sending birds. So, I doubt much interest will develop for a 500 or 600 mile yearling race. #1 because of long hold over, and #2 those guys who claim to have a 600 mile day bird strain, haven't shown any interest up to this point, in sending their birds to out of area races. So it just be holding the birds longer, and adding additional longer races. And I haven't really seen any real interest in that either. 

So where does that leave the situation ? A few old guys, with some OB's, who claim they have the best birds, for a distance no one wants to fly anymore, for lack of competition.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

It has ben our experience that are best breeders over the years have the ability to fly 100-350 as ybs. and 500 miles as yearlings. This has been especially true for the hens. We fly "natural system " for both ybs / obs.
and would like to see birds we will consider for the breeding loft to show ability to fly 100-500 miles.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Maybe you wouldn't have to approach it from that angle. Just find someone who thinks they have great long distance birds. If they are 1400 air line miles from my house, just ship me a few birds and I will turn em lose. If they make it back in good time, then we know they are at least as good as birds from a YB specialist. If we going to talk about stamina, why use 500 or 600 ? Let's use the 1400 mile distance, since we already know our birds can do that distance. Or, just have the distance specialist send his YB's to OLR and we do a 500 YB race, see if those distant boys have the stamina for a 500 as a YB. Either way, find some old guy that thinks he has great long distance birds, and I will dream up an event for his birds to get their wings torn off.
> 
> Cause all too often I hear about slow maturing birds and how they do real good at 600 miles. Maybe reason why them slow birds do so well, is they are flying against so few other birds, and thus less competition. How many clubs have 75+ lofts sending birds to the 600 in the USA ? Our 130+ organization dropped the 600 for lack of interest. Lucky to get two dozen guys sending birds. So, I doubt much interest will develop for a 500 or 600 mile yearling race. #1 because of long hold over, and #2 those guys who claim to have a 600 mile day bird strain, haven't shown any interest up to this point, in sending their birds to out of area races. So it just be holding the birds longer, and adding additional longer races. And I haven't really seen any real interest in that either.
> 
> So where does that leave the situation ? A few old guys, with some OB's, who claim they have the best birds, for a distance no one wants to fly anymore, for lack of competition.


Well after the old bird season is over I'll send my distance birds to you, and you send your OLR birds this way, and we'll find out who is at least as good.

I didn't know there was a 500 mile young bird OLR, so you find one for next year and I'll mate my birds in December. This sounds like a fun event, you find it and I'll enter, will you?
Dave


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Dave,
You got him on the ropes now.He'll disappear for a while now until he tries to think up one of them three paragraph confusing sophisticated worded answers of his,which usually side steps the point at hand.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bob prisco said:


> It has ben our experience that are best breeders over the years have the ability to fly 100-350 as ybs. and 500 miles as yearlings. This has been especially true for the hens. We fly "natural system " for both ybs / obs.
> and would like to see birds we will consider for the breeding loft to show ability to fly 100-500 miles.


 You are absolutely 100% correct, IMHO. I could take 18 paragraphs to explain why as a YB specialist, I agree with you. One should not suppose, that folks who chosse for career and/or family or business obligations, who may simply not have the motivation, or luxury of time, to invest in both racing seasons, may simply default to YB racing, especially if the local club you belong to, are professional YB specialists, and make no bones about it. 

Either way, one should not suppose that these folks all have blinders on. If or when they do decide to fly OB's, perhaps in retirement, it will simply mean less wins for you guys currently attempting to master both. Who do you think are the Champions of our local combine in OB's ? Why more often then not, the guy who can year after year, dominate the YB season. The next maybe four years or so, is just icing on the cake, and yes those same YB winners, can and do win the 500's. If one really wants to own the crown of Combined Champion YB & OB seasons, a man's bird's must first be YB Champions. How else does one win against 130+ members ? You have to be an expert in both, in my view, and so do the birds. So, with that, I want a genetic line, which is a well balanced, all around hardy bird, which can find it's way home from 500 miles in a day, but is also capable of being competitive within a 200 mile range +/- which I am looking at as YB's from about 200 to 400 miles +/-. I just figured a range of 100 to 500 is a very wide range. Very close to perhaps more practical at that point, to have two different families. Which for smaller fanciers with room for 10-12 might be an option. Speed family for events under 300 or even 250 and another for above 250 or 300 or so called "distance" family. 

I came to a conclusion for myself. That maybe a range of 200 miles might just be the maximum range of specialization, keeping in mind YB racing, maybe 200 to 400 miles. At the same time, my focal point is the "long distance" YB events, like 350, 375, or 400 mile type of events. As most OLR will have the "Big" event at some where between 300 and 400 miles. Precede by perhaps a 250 or 300 mile event, preceded by maybe a 200 to 250 mile event. Typically, the longer the event, the higher the number of points scored. So, I am willing to give up some time on 100 to 200 mile events, if my specialized birds can out preform later in the series, and and still be in the series at that point as well. So, fly 1600+ miles in a series of races. No magic involved, just breeding those who demonstrate proficiency in these ranges, to other relatives who won the champion prizes as well. Somewhere in there some very good performers were produced who won in some cases prizes in four or five events. But maybe they were 137, and 194 mile events, they useful for someone who could use some speed, but not for my purposes. Just call me stupid I guess, but I want to keep the birds that can win at 194, 248, 296, and 336 miles or if a OLR up to 400 miles. So, 200 to 400. As OB's maybe if it is a one day race, then they win 500, or win a diploma anyway. But, between 200 to 400, they will own the sky, or that is the vision anyway. (A guy has to have a dream don't he ?) 

If one works with such a family, I am thinking they could fly entire series of YB's and OB's and win share of prizes under 200 and over 400, but can clean up where majority of races are held, close to 200 to 400 miles, at least on our race schedule. And I can confirm that SFL banded birds have won 500 mile on the day race events. Not often, but it has happened, reason why it does not happen that often, is they more valuable as breeders, then trying to win a diploma. My theory, is that for my small back yard loft, which I oversee with a small staff, is my skunk works, for those new guys trying to get by with fewer then 8 or 9 pair, as in my case for 2013 only 5 pairs or "originals" and 2nd, 3rd generation, it seems to me much more practical for a small operation such as this, to focus on one good, all around athletic line, rather then trying to get fancy with a bunch of lines of this and that. *Go to a guy like Bob here, and acquire a number of foundation pairs, keep your good winners, and follow the breeding advice of the breeder. If I had to do it all over again, I do it exactly the same way all over again. Can save you decades of work. Fewer, higher quality, with generations of honest quality breeding and ideally birds already with some sort of race and positive breeding record.* I went to a fancier in Holland, and imported some of his prize winners, and full sisters to his National Champions, but one does not have to take such extreme measures to acquire a few pairs of very good breeders. 

Thank you for sharing Bob, you can say in a few lines what takes me paragraphs, but I am paid by the word, so I tend to use more then I should.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

As a person BUYS birds to use in there breeding program. They BUY OLD birds that have been raced several seasons. At least when they spend thousands of dollars For the import birds. As you look at some of the NEW birds. Not handled right in the loft THEY really are starting to look like FERALS. To Inbred without proper cause. A well select group DOES not. It takes a better set idea to breed just for YB racing. As a person has less of a good record to select from It used to be said a good old bird was never over worked as a young bird. Gave time to grow and get strong.. It used to be said Many lines took 3 years to reach there full peak . BIRDS respond to there chosen need of there Owners. meaning the type of racing you do sets for the type of selection you must use. To reach the level you work for You have to select hard keep few and Hope you done something right. I remember when HVRS were considered SPRINT to mid distance birds Fast at the 200 and 250. Could compete well aginst the jannsen birds oF the time. BUT even the BROTHERS showed there birds could race and win at longer distances They just did not want to race the longer races. Few people reach the top of the hobby those that do have many wanting there birds. As long as they remain HONEST they credit the sport. But when money becomes the reson to sell then lesser birds are sold to people meaning the hobby is Made to suffer.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Josepe said:


> Dave,
> You got him on the ropes now.He'll disappear for a while now until he tries to think up one of them three paragraph confusing sophisticated worded answers of his,which usually side steps the point at hand.


I agree, that's why I offered to except what sounded like a challenge.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Crazy Pete said:


> Well after the old bird season is over I'll send my distance birds to you, and you send your OLR birds this way, and we'll find out who is at least as good.
> 
> I didn't know there was a 500 mile young bird OLR, so you find one for next year and I'll mate my birds in December. This sounds like a fun event, you find it and I'll enter, will you?
> Dave


 No need to come up with a sophisticated three sentence answer. (It's called college Josepe) I don't know of any 500 YB event. How far are you willing to ship your birds ? Are you willing to ship them to a race along the Black Sea or some such venue where they return from open ocean ? I can't send OLR birds to you, as they would return to the loft that they imprinted on. I simply send those left over from YB team. What is your airline distance to York, Pa. ? I have considered a release from sister loft in Utah, a distance of about 1800 miles, but it may be pushing the envelope a bit much. As my desire is 100% recovery, with no lost birds.

PS.
Your OB season should be over shortly, perfect time to make the trip, before it gets too hot. You send yours as soon as OB season is over and I even will video the release with witnesses, after they have a day or two to recover. You can then video their arrival, it be cool, if you far enough away, maybe you become famous, no need to wait til next year.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Our old bird season is not started yet, our last old bird race is June 29. Mapquest says about 1200 driving miles. There should be some one in your club with SFL banded birds that wants to see if they can hold their own.
Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Next year we can send birds to the Arona-tenerife they fly over the ocean. I have a better understanding of what it takes to compete in a OLR, so pick your pioson for next year, and just what kind of challenge you want to make. This year I have all my money spent in south Africa, you can of course send birds there and we can compete this year.
Dave


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## derf (Aug 8, 2012)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I can't send OLR birds to you, as they would return to the loft that they imprinted on. I simply send those left over from YB team. What is your airline distance to York, Pa. ? I have considered a release from sister loft in Utah, a distance of about 1800 miles, but it may be pushing the envelope a bit much. As my desire is 100% recovery, with no lost birds.


Wow,
I couldn't get through your previous post because I fell asleep three times trying to read it (I'm old you know.)
But, it sounds like you're saying that you are going to send all of your young birds to some distance of 1400 or more miles and expect to get them all back in race time. You must either have the ultimate loft of birds, or you have a lot of culls you wish to get rid of. 
However, if you are going to do this, I certainly would like to place a friendly wager.

Derf


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

Along with being able to fly from 100-500 miles , we also look at a birds ability to handle different types of weather conditions and its endurance ability to fly the speeds necessary to compete with the leaders. This versatility is more important to us than the position they finish in the race.
EXAMPLE : AU-97-JBM-2001 BC COCK
10/5/97 33RD / 150 LOFTS / 2493 BIRDS / 123 MILES / SPEED 1544 YPM
4/25/98 40TH / 36 LOFTS / 628 BIRDS / 215 MILES / SPEED 1645 YPM
5/13/98 17TH / 85 LOFTS / 1005 BIRDS / 268 MILES /SPEED 1269 YPM
5/30/99 2ND / 34 LOFTS / 34 BIRDS / 494 MILES / SP.1190 YPM 1BIRD DERBY
5/23/99 3RD / 33 LOFTS / 99 BIRDS / 494 MILES / SP 782 YPM 3 BIRD DERBY
5/31/99 5TH / 21 LOFTS / 21 BIRDS / 494 MILES / SP. 1155 YPM 1 BIRD DERBY
6/12 99 80TH / 88 LOFTS / 1496 BIRDS / 494 MILES / SP. 1020 YPM 

This cock flew range of speeds at various distances from 1997-1999.
ALSO FLEW 4 TIMES 494 MILES IN 28 DAYS AND TOTAL OF 1,976 MILES
Became a top breeder for us and finished his breeding career in Taiwan.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

the dates for 1999 4 times 500 are :

5/15 / 99
5/23 / 99
5/31 / 99
6/12 / 99


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

bob prisco said:


> Along with being able to fly from 100-500 miles , we also look at a birds ability to handle different types of weather conditions and its endurance ability to fly the speeds necessary to compete with the leaders. This versatility is more important to us than the position they finish in the race.
> EXAMPLE : AU-97-JBM-2001 BC COCK
> 10/5/97 33RD / 150 LOFTS / 2493 BIRDS / 123 MILES / SPEED 1544 YPM
> 4/25/98 40TH / 36 LOFTS / 628 BIRDS / 215 MILES / SPEED 1645 YPM
> ...


This is a bird I would have put into my breeding program, a consistant bird for several years.
Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Crazy Pete said:


> This is a bird I would have put into my breeding program, a consistant bird for several years.
> Dave


Yep, that's what you call a keeper.


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## derf (Aug 8, 2012)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Never said anything about sending YB's 1400 miles and getting them back in time for the races........


Well, there you go.. There some much b.s being slung in your posts that it's hard to tell what the heck you were saying. You definitely are a legend in your own mind.

P.S. You should definitely find out who you are talking to before you start calling people names.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

The bird that returned 1400 miles was not SFL banded, so I guess we'll never know what your birds can do. Now as far as sending you young birds to race with, we already do that it's called the PTC, you got lucky the first year and don't want to compete any more.
I really would like to see if my birds can compete with a big club and combine, but this round is going to Africa. So if you don't mind I'll mate my birds early next year and send you a pair the end of January 2014. You can either keep them or give them to a good handler in your club.
As for being an OLR professional that's you guys I've never wanted to send birds to a OLR till a few years ago. Reading about all the fun Pigeon Talk members have doing this has made me want to try.
Dave

P.S. derf who are you?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Warren, how many fly young birds in your in your club and combine?
Dave


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Dave,some good flyers in his combine.A few that Really Are Pros and it shows in their results.A link to the UPC combine results last year:YB's-09/01(pg2) to 11/03.Point standings and awards 11/08-11/20(pg1)
http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/cgi...d+Pigeon+Combine&pagenum=1&cgifunction=Search


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hey Pops, next time you see your doctor, maybe have him check your eyes as well there old timer. Never said anything about sending YB's 1400 miles and getting them back in time for the races. Besides, how could I take money from a poor ole Sr. citizen, you gonna need all that social security check just to cover the increases in your Medicare premiums. Besides, if I took your $2 wager, PETA would have me up on RICO charges !!
> 
> PS.
> 
> Besides, you ole coot, I most likely older then you, I only look young, cause I took care of myself and have superior genes, I have great grandchildren there skippy. Maybe you were just the gleam in yo pappy's eye, when I was producing race winners ?


Wow! I'm going to go out on a limb here!  This sounds like more than "tongue in cheek" humor, and derf's responses (along with a few others) show that he/they didn't find it too funny. Name calling, derogatory comments, inflammatory statements. Not apropos for Pigeon Talk in general, or a moderator specifically. Not a good way to welcome a newer member!

I have generally found threads posted by the racing community both informative and entertaining, but I personally found some of the posts here a little bit over the top. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!


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## dennis kuhn (Dec 29, 2007)

ERIC K said:


> Dennis: I think you all did good in that race . There has been some talk in our club about flying that race this year. We will see what happens, you know I'm at least 40 miles north of Ron and Bob B is 24 miles north of me. That put me 94 miles north west of Dakota. I would say that's some good competition. Although I only have a few 2009 birds, my 2010's should be ready for the challenge though.
> 
> Ron does have some nice birds and he's in tight with Rick Nanez so his loft is full of kick a_ _ ! pigeons that can win in Young Bird or Old Bird or OLR's.
> 
> I myself would like to fly just old birds . I like putting the old birds on the truck and knowing they will be home, no messing around up and down the road miles and miles with a bunch of knuckle head youngsters .


I only race old birds due to wanting to spend as much time as I can while my kids are still young & at home. I know it takes alot of time away from family in order to be at the top of the race sheet every week no matter what system you fly. Always enjoyed old birds the most and especially the distance. You are about same age as me, so I am sure your time is limmitted as well in the stage of life we are in, as we are both "young" by today's standard age of a pigeon fancier. Hoping to beat Ron this year and obvioulsy Dakota in old birds, as they both definately did very well last year. I see more and more individuals that choose to race only young or old birds due to time involved compared to what it was like years ago. Best of luck racing this year. Missed you at the Heartland Auction, and didn't make it to the award banquet if you went. 

P.S. One of the toughest long distance old bird race schedules I have seen is what Crazy Pete and the guys race in the Nebraska Combine. They have more 400-600 miles races than anyone I know in their race schedule each year. Wish I lived close enough to fly in their combine, as there is nothing like getting daybirds from 500-600 miles.

Dennis Kuhn (952)873-5664 
http://www.pigeonsuppliesplus.com

http://www.whiteracingpigeons.com


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Josepe said:


> Dave,some good flyers in his combine.A few that Really Are Pros and it shows in their results.A link to the UPC combine results last year:YB's-09/01(pg2) to 11/03.Point standings and awards 11/08-11/20(pg1)
> http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/cgi...d+Pigeon+Combine&pagenum=1&cgifunction=Search


Wow they have a lot of members, it would be nice to win a race or 2. Even having a top 10% bird would be a plus.
Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

P.S. One of the toughest long distance old bird race schedules I have seen is what Crazy Pete and the guys race in the Nebraska Combine. They have more 400-600 miles races than anyone I know in their race schedule each year. Wish I lived close enough to fly in their combine, as there is nothing like getting day birds from 500-600 miles.

While every other club has cut back, we keep our long races. The HHC is so spread out it is the only way we can compete. We may not have the most members but for square miles we have the largest combine, over 120 miles North to South and almost 300 miles East to West.
Dave


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

That's just it, SFL, legends do their body of work and let others make legends out of them. Did Ludo have to come asking you to worship him?


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

"Worship" is a bit strong, I must admit now, seeing how you interpret it. The point was the names you mentioned earned their "legend" status through their work. Not by trying to convince the public of their greatness through vision and dreams. We can all do that and not come close to ever being considered anything close to legendary. Vision and dreams we can all accept, I'm sure. Self promotion and the like we can also accept, I'm sure. Myopic legendary self view...not so much. Let us tell you when you've become a legend. When that day comes, I will personally bow and kiss your feet and publically proclaim you a legend as those you've proclaimed "Legend".


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> From my perspective, I do not hold such a view. Nor am I attempting to convince anybody of anything.* I neither seek, nor want such a burden to carry*. I have apparently been confused with others, that concern themselves with such things. You can debate with your pigeon buddies if you like, the validity of who or what is legendary in your own mind. Wouldn't be appropriate, for me to comment on my own status, at least not before a published autobiography. Needless to say, I am quite certain once such documents are reviewed, fifty generations from now, history will show I was right. What people think or believe right now, from my perspective is all rather irrelevant.


I am a wee bit confused here Warren, You "neither seek, nor want such a burden to carry" yet your post previous almost outlines why you do believe yourself to be a legend, In short, You believe to be a legend one day you need to see yourself as a legend first. I agree with this. However, One post is stating how you plan on becomg a legend, The next states you do not want to be a legend, Have you changed your mind or am I perceiving this in the wrong way.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Warren you mentioned that you know Arvel F, I have one of his birds, it won some money in a race. I'm not sure if I got it right but do you have a race there called The Black Eyed Suesan or some thing like that.
Dave


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## denicanfx (Mar 7, 2011)

wow is sad to see how people are so arrogant and think they have superior genes over others and can still be a moderator


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## ssyyb2 (Sep 4, 2011)

Crazy Pete said:


> P.S. One of the toughest long distance old bird race schedules I have seen is what Crazy Pete and the guys race in the Nebraska Combine. They have more 400-600 miles races than anyone I know in their race schedule each year. Wish I lived close enough to fly in their combine, as there is nothing like getting day birds from 500-600 miles.
> 
> While every other club has cut back, we keep our long races. The HHC is so spread out it is the only way we can compete. We may not have the most members but for square miles we have the largest combine, over 120 miles North to South and almost 300 miles East to West.
> Dave


When I got back into racing last year I made it my mission to want to place in the Topeka 550 miles for me that is why I went straight to my grandpas old friends the Weldon's! They are hands down the best long distance racers in the USA! Jay holds the AU record for 1250 miles if I'm not mistaken. I got 3 birds from lee we will see how thier young fair this year!


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Just out of curiosity.....how does one get chosen to be a Moderator ?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

*TO ALL* - Please let this thread get back on track. We are doing the original poster a dis-service by hijacking this thread. If you truly feel the need to continue a discussion about individual moderators, or the moderation team in general, please feel free to PM me. I may be opening a real can of worms with this suggestion, but it's better than screwing up another member's sincere request for information on a topic important to them, and apparently to others. Thanks in advance!


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

lol, thanks for clearing that up, i m having trouble getting pedigrees uploaded into the computer, my point is the race records for the birds as well as the pedigrees are really good. four generations ago they all came from 1774007 james bond and a family of birds called the bond family. these birds i got for free THANKS PITMAN family on vancouver island. the birds are older 12, down to 4 years old they re really big. these birds have flown and done well up to 300miles + i hope to get the paper work to show you.

i m glad these birds will live there life here with me and i will race there young.


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