# Massive Losses



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

We didn't send our birds last week. They were flown out, we experienced some losses and decided to hold them out of this 300 mile race and race them the following week in the short race. 
The rest of the club members sent their birds this past Sat from Tulsa. 
From what I understand not a single bird is back as of last night. 

We normally knock off clocks yesterday, but I guess they didn't because of the lack of birds. 

Ever hear of something like this?


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

How many lofts and how many birds are we talking about here? K-factor was not high this weekend. We had a 200 this weekend and everyone did fine.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I've lost 80% of my birds in the last two weekends.  We can find no explanation for it. Other club members have had similar losses while other have lost very, very few. One guy has lost only one bird out of 45 in four races. Very, very puzzling, not to mention frustrating and sad. I'm pretty much done for the year.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Granny Smith said:


> How many lofts and how many birds are we talking about here? K-factor was not high this weekend. We had a 200 this weekend and everyone did fine.


Good question. Probably 7 or eight lofts, in the club, easily over 100 birds maybe 150. 

I don't know how the rest of the combine was doing, last time I talked with my mentor he said that no one in the combine had birds either but that was Sunday around noon.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Kastle Loft said:


> I've lost 80% of my birds in the last two weekends.  We can find no explanation for it. Other club members have had similar losses while other have lost very, very few. One guy has lost only one bird out of 45 in four races. Very, very puzzling, not to mention frustrating and sad. I'm pretty much done for the year.


We only lost one bird in the 200. We sent birds to the 250 and lost something like 7 or 8 birds. That was half of the birds we shipped. Had we shipped them this week, we would have been pretty much done as well, although we do have some late hatches that this short mid season 150 is the first race for.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

I spoke with a guy in my club. He said that he had called around and such and he had 2 birds. He knew of one other guy in the entire combine with one bird. 
That's it.

Three birds that we know of, in the entire combine.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Seems to have been a tough year so far. Last year I was pretty careful and didn't lose many birds during the races and had birds out to 300 miles but I only won one race. This year I've taken a few risks and am out more birds but in the end I've done really well and my goal was to win races not just have a lot of birds at the end.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

V-John said:


> We didn't send our birds last week. They were flown out, we experienced some losses and decided to hold them out of this 300 mile race and race them the following week in the short race.
> The rest of the club members sent their birds this past Sat from Tulsa.
> From what I understand not a single bird is back as of last night.
> 
> ...


Yes. 

I think the year was 2006....we had a four day 300 mile smash race. The birds were released into bad weather and guess what ? It affected the bird's time !! 
And of course there are other stories of how the truck exhaust fumes would go into the truck, especially when it will sit and idle for hours. That didn't help the bird's either. Yep, have heard of smash races before. They have happened for all long as there have been pigeon races.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think the year was 2006....we had a four day 300 mile smash race. The birds were released into bad weather and guess what ? It affected the bird's time !!
> And of course there are other stories of how the truck exhaust fumes would go into the truck, especially when it will sit and idle for hours. That didn't help the bird's either. Yep, have heard of smash races before. They have happened for all long as there have been pigeon races.


Yeah there have been smash races for as long as there have been races. But most of them you can explain meaning there was bad weather along the race course that either forced the birds down or the bird to try to go around bring them so far off course most never make it back. But there have been alot more of these smash races or loses in general that there's not explaination for. But we don't even know for sure how pigeons find their way home from places 100's of miles away from home when they've never been there. So how are we gonna figure out what is messing them up the way they've been messed up the past couple of years. But from what I've been hearing this year is the worst by far.


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## High Flier (Jan 19, 2011)

I think your small flock came across a bigger flock and joined up. They flee the wrong direction for s long time. Maybe 200-300miles in the wrong directions. So now your birds are hungry and thirsty. Don't have the energy to fly home anymore.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I average 5 1/2 lost YB`s per year....Don`t ask about the 1/2 bird...But over the last few years (6),that`s my average...This year so far......12 birds...Lost 4 training,and 8 the 1st two races....We are on race #7 this Saturday coming....Had to go pick one up also,from 2 hrs drive away....It was a VG hen bird...If it was a cock,I would have never gone after it....Heavy losses from our AU club here also....IF combine out of the Pittsburgh area,also having heavy losses...Alamo


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## Hareloft (Jun 26, 2011)

This year has been bad every one around here has lost lots of birds this year. My last training toss was a fewweeks ago after a 180 mile race that I got all birds back in. We let up birds from 3 lofts 4 days after that race only 30 miles I think about 70 or 80 in total only 15 were back on the day and only half came back total. I am out 80% of my YBs this year.


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## Hareloft (Jun 26, 2011)

There have been other post on here talking about big losses even over seas


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Yeah there have been smash races for as long as there have been races. But most of them you can explain meaning there was bad weather along the race course that either forced the birds down or the bird to try to go around bring them so far off course most never make it back. *But there have been alot more of these smash races or loses in general that there's not explaination for.* But we don't even know for sure how pigeons find their way home from places 100's of miles away from home when they've never been there. So how are we gonna figure out what is messing them up the way they've been messed up the past couple of years. But from what I've been hearing this year is the worst by far.


I'm the kind that needs an explanation. I realize we will never know what happens along the course. We can only speculate. This last race of ours was bad, imo, because there was rain along the course and a headwind. But one of our members clocked 29 of 30 birds. Why his would come home so well and other flyers birds wouldn't is what I would like to have an explanation for. 

If I make a mistake, then I want to know what the problem is so I don't repeat it or so I can make adjustments to compensate. So far this year, I'm still reaching for answers. One old-timer in my club told me that if young birds ever go to XYZ City on their way home (following birds to lofts there), then they can never find their way home. It's been true for 50 years he said. Now THAT I'd like an explanation for. He appears to be correct in my case. Too bad I'll never know.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

If all these birds were crossing into another larger group of birds then they would be showing up somewhere. Same goes for bad weather throwing them off course. There is just too many birds. IMO.
Kurps


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## pluviru (Jul 14, 2011)

Why not the clubs that you are racing with invest in a GPS system. They will place a ring or whatever on every pigeon and see what's happening and where they end finally


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

pluviru said:


> Why not the clubs that you are racing with invest in a GPS system. They will place a ring or whatever on every pigeon and see what's happening and where they end finally


Any affordable gps system requires that the bird come home to retrieve the data. You have some suggested systems? That technology could be revolutionary for flyers if it was affordable.

I found one real-time tracking system but it costs $4000 for ONE bird. It's the kind of technology that avian researchers use.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

I realize that I don't have the experience that most of you folks do and thus the reason why I did ask. 

But lets say that 450 birds were sent. And lets say that ten birds made it back in the entire combine. 

(I'll find out official numbers tonight, when they knock off clocks...) 

But 4.5% returns? 
That's really tough. I figured smash races would be something like in the 30 to 50% range. 

As far as the weather it was cloudy all day on Sat and cloudy all day Sunday. Some sun on sunday. 

There wasn't any rain, nor storms or anything like that.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Kastle Loft said:


> Any affordable gps system requires that the bird come home to retrieve the data. You have some suggested systems? That technology could be revolutionary for flyers if it was affordable.
> 
> I found one real-time tracking system but it costs $4000 for ONE bird. It's the kind of technology that avian researchers use.


Check this out http://www.pigeongps.com/index-en.htm I think it would be less than $300 for the kit. But still......I can't convince myself to watch $300 fly off into the sunset.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

raftree3 said:


> Check this out http://www.pigeongps.com/index-en.htm I think it would be less than $300 for the kit. But still......I can't convince myself to watch $300 fly off into the sunset.


Or to end up in a hawks or cats or ***** or anything else's belly!


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

raftree3 said:


> Check this out http://www.pigeongps.com/index-en.htm I think it would be less than $300 for the kit. But still......I can't convince myself to watch $300 fly off into the sunset.


This is the kind that requires the bird to come home in order to collect the data. It's still very useful information, but it won't help with lost birds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Yeah there have been smash races for as long as there have been races. But most of them you can explain meaning there was bad weather along the race course that either forced the birds down or the bird to try to go around bring them so far off course most never make it back. But there have been alot more of these smash races or loses in general that there's not explaination for. But we don't even know for sure how pigeons find their way home from places 100's of miles away from home when they've never been there. So how are we gonna figure out what is messing them up the way they've been messed up the past couple of years. But from what I've been hearing this year is the worst by far.


So I don't know....I have heard these stories for so long, I don't know what to believe. Was that smash race we had in 1948' that was pretty bad....was this year's or last, as bad as that one ?

You don't remember that one ? What about in 1958' ? 1968' ? You see what I am suggesting ? A loss always seems worse in the year you suffer it. And exactly what kinds of records did you keep in say 1992 ? I mean did anyone lose any birds that year ? Were cell towers a reasonable explanation back then ? 

I guess what I am asking, is if losses are so much worse then say 50 years ago, then please show me some data to back that up ? Also would someone please explain why they think we are breeding better birds today then say 1992 or 1982 or 1972 ??? 

How does one prove that he or she is in fact breeding better birds then say they did in 2002 or 1992. And don't point to won races because maybe the birds bred by everyone else has simply gotten worse at a faster pace then yours. 

I mean please people.....please explain to me, how one just knows that today's.... let's just say 600 mile winner, is such a far superior specimen of a racing pigeon, that the few hundred combine members who would have been standing around at the club houses in say 1952 would have been amazed at the quality of your 600 mile champ. 

Have we really advanced the design of the modern racing champ ? Has for example, the last sixty years brought about an amazing advancement in the modern day racer, much like selective breeding has done has radically changed the modern day milk cow ?

Here is a controversial thought that everyone most likely will want to contest....perhaps more "junk" then ever before is being produced by some of the worst pigeon keepers in history. They simply had better stock sense in decades now long past. The birds were better housed and better fed, and the birds didn't require ten different medications in between races to keep them healthy. Here is a thought, when we get back to performance selection, and breed better quality pigeons, then the losses will decrease. 

Those who lost a lot of pigeons will of course insist that they were in fact "good" pigeons, yet everyone knows that "good" pigeons don't get lost. So one must then look to radio signals, color TV, cell towers, sun spots or alien interference, whatever the latest technology that is difficult to understand. I have heard YB losses explained, or not explained for nearly fifty years, and it all sounds all about the same by now. In 1965, it was the "worst" that anyone had ever seen or heard of....and decades later...the same questions....

We didn't know then, and it seemed worst then ever...and now today, we know no more then we did back then, yet still...it seems worse then ever....
when are we going to breed some better homing pigeons ? We seem to have forgotten the the #1 trait we should be selecting for, is homing ability. Apparently, we stopped breeding for that, and if things are getting worse, then we simply are not doing are job as fanciers very well. 

Don't know the reason, other then the fact our breeding is not advancing as fast as the cause of the losses. Perhaps if we returned to basics, and first attempted to breed a "homing" pigeon, and then perhaps we could move on towards those that came home a bit faster then others. 

If it turns out, that space aliens are indeed intercepting our birds and stealing them, then we must breed bird's smarter then the aliens. We must stop focusing on excuses, and start producing results. So if you lost a bunch of birds, then go home and remove their parents from the loft, and focus on those pigeons that produce birds that find their way home. I would start there and see how that might affect next years results. In some number of generations, we might be able to turn this around, and start producing homing pigeons again.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

I asked my mentor if he had seen anything like this one. He said one other time in all the years he has raced. 

Can't say if he has any data or not. All I can say is I believe him when he tells me something. 

I do know, that you folks have raced pigeons longer then I have been alive... When I get the stats on this race I'll post them. 

That way I have the data to come back and look at years on down the line.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Earlier this year,on the news (TV) etc,scientists said that this would be one of the worst years for "Solar Storms",on the Sun....Maybe this has a little to do with YB`s being off course so much...I don`t know....I usally know what pigeons I will lose during the races....I hardly ever lose any training...I lost 4 birds this year training...Two were from 60 miles,when they had already been to that location at least 4 times,with no problems...I even lost my 2 Auction birds........I hardly ever lose my Auction birds racing...So this year,at my loft,no Auction birds will be shipped....I have 3 that are being flown by other lofts who bought them...Hopefully,they will do good racing later this year......Alamo


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> So I don't know....I have heard these stories for so long, I don't know what to believe. Was that smash race we had in 1948' that was pretty bad....was this year's or last, as bad as that one ?
> 
> You don't remember that one ? What about in 1958' ? 1968' ? You see what I am suggesting ? A loss always seems worse in the year you suffer it. And exactly what kinds of records did you keep in say 1992 ? I mean did anyone lose any birds that year ? Were cell towers a reasonable explanation back then ?
> 
> ...


I don't know exactly what year it stopped but i was told years ago racers were released at night. Since that time we have progressed and know better then that, as years go by we improve our methods. I never back when saw as many pigeon racers take they're birds to the Vet as i see nowadays, back then they were just killed if sick. Also there are new diseases now as compared to then, diseases that may be found out after the fact as the birds didn't show any symptoms and you lose a group of birds before saying something isn't right and treat them. I don't recall the phrase "young bird sickness" (which i believe it used too often as a label) back when. I believe birds are better today then in the past. In the past if a hawk terrorized your birds you did what you had to. In the past you didn't have trash like "soar no more" although you did have hunters. You didn't have decoy pigeons to bait down birds. You didn't have exterminators fabricating all these diseases to scare people about pigeon for they're own profit. You didn't have "crazy corn". You didn't have animal rights activist (which do good mostly) have the pigeon racing hobby so misconstrued. Also if you lose a bird nowadays it doesn't always mean it is a bad bird. IMO.
Kurps

added: Warren, i would bet you have some records and race results to compare.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I have to say that I think many birds were bred away from homing ability and more to speed over the years, I have lost 5 birds this pass weekend, but I have a pair that I bred 4 birds in 2011 and just one lost, this year I bred 5 from this pair, they are all home and in the top of the race sheet all 5, and they have very strong homing ability along with speed.
I just think more people need to breed for good homing ability along with speed.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

The club knocked off yesterday. 

The numbers were a bit lower then I had thought.
75 birds were sent, and 5 returned home to be clocked. 

Returns at around 6%

I'll find out what the combine did later this week.


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## pluviru (Jul 14, 2011)

raftree3 said:


> Check this out http://www.pigeongps.com/index-en.htm I think it would be less than $300 for the kit. But still......I can't convince myself to watch $300 fly off into the sunset.


That's what I thought.. that's why I said it would be made by a club or federation. But I forgot that the pigeon has to come back to retrieve the data.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I think the GPS on two or three birds is the way to go for info on the birds COURSE they have taken....With that said,I have been contimplating this for the last 4 months,after I seen the advertisement,for the GPS @$250.00 plus S&H....My 1st thought was to put these GPS systems on OLD BIRDS ONLY,that would be released with the race birds(YB`s),and not actually in the race...They are just there for DATA,and nothing else....Old cocks,3 or 4 years old would be prime canidates for this JOB....They would be very experienced,and data from them would be very interesting to see....Sometimes you just have to sit back and think things over,as I have done for some time...Now,all you have to do is get your club/combine to buy a couple of the GPS systems !! Good luck with that !!!...........Alamo


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

*Massive losses*

Over the years , I have found that if you breed for good health and select only by performance your chances for success are greatly increased.
The most important quality is "HOMING ABILITY" without it you are wasting your time and money. Most fanciers select their birds by appearance and physical qualities. Most fanciers today are just breeding feathers and low quality birds. Why ? Because they are breeding from birds that have no 
racing performance or evidence of "HOMING ABILITY" for several generations.

The EUROPEAN FANCIERS laugh at the AMERICAN FANCIERS because we buy all the garage they send over and hold it in high value because it has a foreign band and is related to some famous bird of the past, with several generations showing little or no performance. SAVE YOUR MONEY and BUY A BIRD THAT HAS FLOWN IN YOUR AREA AND HAS A PROVEN RACE RECORD.

You want to be successful in this sport , breed only from performance birds or from breeders that have produced quality and from a family of birds that has generations of excellent race results at various distances and speeds in both YBS. and OBS. AND LET THE TRAINING BASKET AND RACES select your next foundation breeder.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

bob prisco said:


> Over the years , I have found that if you breed for good health and select only by performance your chances for success are greatly increased.
> The most important quality is "HOMING ABILITY" without it you are wasting your time and money. Most fanciers select their birds by appearance and physical qualities. Most fanciers today are just breeding feathers and low quality birds. Why ? Because they are breeding from birds that have no
> racing performance or evidence of "HOMING ABILITY" for several generations.
> 
> ...


Bob, first may i say i like your website. Second, i love H.V.R.'s have for a long time and probably will til the day i die. Your birds are very impressive. I see you flew some tough clubs and combines also. I am only stating that as a whole, birds today are better then years before and have more to overcome then years past. The next time you fly GE (a tough club) ask Pete or Mike or Bill (added; also impressive flyers) if they're birds are the same as say the early 80's or if they're birds have improved.
Kurps


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Everyone here should take any words written by Bob Prisco to the bank...He has written many a word,on how to fly/train/breed pigeons....He has many great achivements in this sport....Last year,one of his birds won the 350 mile AIC,one loft race,bringing him a nice little nest egg...$100,000.00.....If you take his advice,on his web site,you will not be disapointed very often on race day....The man knows pigeons...Great guy also !!! Alamo


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Alamo i certainly hope you are not implying that i am in any way trying to discredit Bob Prisco. That is not the case.
Kurps

added; I couldn't discredit him if I wanted to.
I agree totally with his last paragraph. Rule of thumb i was told is 2 breeding seasons, no results then get rid of breeders. Young birds give a chance at old birds, if nothing get rid of them. Trouble bird get rid of before they bring the rest down. Europeans have made fun of us for a long time is so true. I can't wait for the day that someone's birds in the US is in demand in Europe.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

The most important rule was always try to improve or add quality to your racing flock. This and what i mentioned in my last post was taught to me over thirty years ago and was everyone's rule. That is why i say the birds today have got to be better then years ago. I raced NJ Concourse back then and there were tough lofts then and everyone said the same thing. We flew out of the south then. Everyone tries to improve they're birds, I just can't see the birds being dumber now then say 1960 as a WHOLE.
Kurps

added; That's all i have to say.


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## bob prisco (Apr 26, 2012)

THE PERSON THAT WON THE BIG RACE AND $100,000 WAS BOB PRESTO FROM S.I. , NY.
A fine credit to the sport and excellent pigeon flyer.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Sorry Mr Prisco....Never paid that much attention to the spelling of your last name...Really thought it was Bobby Presto writing a few words for us here...And YOUR words are "Exactly" the words that "HE" writes and tells pigeon guys all the time...

M Kurps....Didn`t write anything above,because of your words....I just saw the name Bob Prisco,and thought I would write a few words about a man I have talked to for 90 minutes one day(Bobby Presto)on the phone....He does not hold back any info,when you ask a question...That`s the kind of person he is.....Alamo


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bob prisco said:


> .......You want to be successful in this sport , breed only from performance birds or from breeders that have produced quality and from a family of birds that has generations of excellent race results at various distances and speeds in both YBS. and OBS. AND LET THE TRAINING BASKET AND RACES select your next foundation breeder.


 I agree of course 100%, but then again everyone pretty much claims to be doing just that. If they were of course, then they wouldn't be producing the same average typical birds, which of course the majority of pigeons are just that. 

I am not convinced that the majority of pigeons fanciers are doing what has been suggested by many top fliers over the decades. And that is breeding from quality, and letting the training and race basket select the next foundation breeders. 

All makes sense to me, but the data would suggest that the major improvements to the modern day racing pigeon over say the last fifty years, has come from a very small handful of master breeders, and those who were able to acquire stock from these great fanciers, is what has formed the foundations of many great lofts today. Case in point : The Janssen Brothers Not to surprising, perhaps the greatest racing and breeding champions alive today, are still being hatched in Europe. Why ? 

I suspect that because some of the finest racing pigeons in the world today, still reside within a relatively small geographically location inside Europe, and as a group the European fancier, is still a better selector then the typical fancier anywhere else in the world. 

Why that may still be, can be debated, I suspect it may be as simple as for example, why the typical American fancier might not even agree as to what it might mean to "LET THE TRAINING BASKET AND RACES select your next foundation breeder", as I suspect that many fancier's might define that differently. Or may even be a bit confused as to what that means. I mean if you ask someone, they might say that they allow the basket to select what they keep, but the results would indicate that their selection process is no better then average. So, the average fancier, obviously is not applying selective pressure beyond typical average everyday average.

I suggest, that those fanciers who do tend to produce more "above average" birds then most, #1 have "good" stock to start with, and they are applying greater selective pressure then is typical. The better the stock, the more selective pressure applied, then over time, the better results should come from those lofts where "good" is simply not good enough. 

It is from within this top 2% or so of lofts and their fanciers, which will produce perhaps 80% of all great birds that will be produced in the world. Why ? They have the genetic wealth, and they are only retaining the top performers for their breeding of the next generation. So, I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

Personally, it may be true, but I don't see it. The average pigeon in the shipping crate on a Friday night, looks as typical to me in 2012 as they did in the 1960's. Still an awful lot of average pigeons going to the races. So, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few very average pigeons have been crowned "winners", but are still pretty typical average pigeons.


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