# Anyone know of domesticated pigeons other than C. Livia



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

I have heard that other pigeon species have been domesticated besides the normal rock dove or rock pigeon which has been the foundation of nearly every pigeon breed that we know.

Does anyone know of any others?

I have wondered about such breeds as the Lebanon which are somewhat unique in their colors. There are some others from the mid east that also look quite different but if you add up all the breeds that are from Columbia Livia, there is tremendous diversity from 6 ounce to 3 pound pigeons with every color, ornament and type that one can imagine. To me, this is incredible.

I still wonder what else there is.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Technically, the only other domesticated pigeons (doves) that I know of presently are Streptopelia roseogrisea (the common ringneck).

At this point in history, I'd also say the Diamond Dove, Geopelia cuneata, is domesticated.

There's a point to be made that the Cape Dove, Oena capensis, is partially domesticated. I'm not sure I'd buy into any idea that the Triangular Spotted Pigeon, Columba guinea, is domesticated in any form.

As for the larger birds- something on the size of Columba livia, I don't believe we have ever taken anything and domesticated it. Could be there some introgression of genes from some species crosses - possibly. I knew Bill Hawkinson pretty well. Some years ago, he had crosses of Domestic pigeons X Triangular Spotted Pigeons, Columba guinea, that had been backcrossed into domestics and had some fertility and had young that I knew went at least four generations back into the domestics. So is there a chance that at some point in the past someone did something similar - perhaps.

However, there is no real evidence that there has been any introgression and if there were, the chances are that's it was long ago swamped and weeded out simply because of the number of domestics vs. any possible hybrids.

The variation in domestics is almost 100% assuredly the result of mutation and massive selection over time by countless fanciers down thru the ages who had zero knowledge of technical genetics, but who had a keen eye for beauty and who raised a lot of birds and had, in most cases, no problem eating the ones that didn't make the fancier's grade -- be it for color, shape, ornament, etc.

There is some good evidence that pigeons have been breed for almost 5000 years. That's a heck of a lot of time to add various mutation combinations and to create some very, very unique birds. Heck, look at what fancier have done in a mere fifty or so years with the Domestic Flight.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I'll be darned*

So there aren't really any other birds that we consider pigeons then, only doves. I guess that makes sense as it appears that all of them can breed together without making mules. I did wonder though about some of the odd breeds from around the world if they had used something else from the pigeon world. I guess they'd have to be considered more as remarkable adaptations to environment and or controlled breeding programs.

The doves, like you say probably go so far as to include diamonds (many mutations) and ringnecks (also many mutations). I think capes have some mutations or at least one which really doesn't qualify as domestication but getting there maybe. I think zebra doves come in a few colors now as well and maybe belong in this group.

What really qualifies domestication? I think it would be to make some change from the wild state but I don't really know.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

What really makes domestication? Interesting question. Traditionally, I've sort of seen it defined as exactly what you say - usually first it's some color variations that are saved and perpetuated by fanciers because they are unique. In all the domestic animals species that I know of, humans seems to have often kept or preferred a white sport (mutation) for whatever reason - ease of viewing; unusual; purity so it could be sacrificed: or just cleaner looking when eaten. Also, people in all times and cultures seem to have been fascinated by the "different" one and kept it - usually as a talking point to other breeders - heck, we still do it today. Get something different in your loft that's unusual and most of us show it off and keep it around.

Domestication usually also involves a change in behavior. Often it's a deliberate or non-deliberate breeding towards more "stupid" or "more docile" nature. The dog that is bright enough to escape all the time is not bred while the one that stays at home is. The animal that runs from you all the time is eaten or killed in preference to the one that is more docile when you come near - who in their right mind wouldn't prefer a more docile 1000 pound bull to one that tried to gore you every time you came within 100 feet.

Behavior is definitely under genetic control - our pigeons have a simple recessive "docile" on the nest. These are the birds that don't whap at you with their wings when they are nesting. Honestly, I prefer them 98% of the time in my loft to those that slap and slap and break eggs when I try to check their nest. In the wild, the docile ones likely get eaten faster than the non-docile (wild-type) ones, so there is a domestication feature there.

Our birds were traditionally bred for food, religious purposes (sacrifice), sport, flight usage. Already by Roman times, we had birds the size of the Runts - non-flying and huge compared to the wild rock pigeon. I'm 100% sure that while we know them today in Europe as Romans, these huge birds probably predate the empire and even the Roman Republic.

So domestication? - I'd agree with you, it's a change in body type, behavior, and even in viability in the wild. Show cats right now are going thru a major upheaval in that -== personally, I think some of the new "breeds" are grotesque, but then I'm not feeding or breeding them. The next step will be behavior breeding them - as we've done for millenia with dogs, to see if the cat can be molded more to what folks want for close in house pets.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Quite a few years ago, the PBS/BBC Series 'Connections'...in one episode, paused to consider breeding and domestications.


Anyway, they went on location in Ireland somewhere, where a Breed of Cattle still exist, who though 'domesticated' are believed unchanged since the Middle Ages, and who also, were not at all docile or 'easy'.


The ones they showed looked like what used to be called 'Texas Longhorns', only narrower in the body - 


Very tall at the shoulder, long narrow slender deep Bodys on long legs...huge extenting Horns, and very smart, serious, fleet, and likely to stomp, gore or kill you if they felt you were essing with themm or their young.


These were the 'Cows'...

They did not show a Bull...



Some people had a bunch of old stock 'Texas Longhorns' on a small Ranch where I used to hike when I was a kid.

I thought they were fascinating and I spent a lot of time watching them.


Very different than what one otherwise may have come to expect of a 'Cow'...and one thing for sure, with Cows like that grazing on one's lawn, no tresspassers would stand a chance..!


I really like them..!


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks for the interesting comments*

I have always been fascinated by the Longhorns too. Always wondered what made them the way that they are.

I used to raise Mallard ducks and most of mine were of the domesticated varieties. Most people would probably not see the differences from wild but to me, they were quite different. They were naturally fairly tame, they tended to be heavier than wild Mallards and their color was somewhat darker. They were referred to as Gray Mallards if you showed them.

It was very difficult to achieve the look of a wild Mallard, even if you raised them from wild Mallard eggs. I raised some of these as well and they were different from my Gray Mallards. They were longer, more slender and more wild. The color was somewhat darker than I had hoped but this could be the feed or it could be genetic as many wild Mallards are darker as well and not necessarily the ideal show bird for the wild bird class.

My gray Mallards would sometimes produce pied birds and I could easily have bred whites within a few generations. I used to sell these off as I wanted the wild color. It was interesting to see how quickly a little inbreeding would produce these mutations. The white ring on the drakes would get wider and white rings and white wingtips would show up on hens. Easy to see where the Pekin and other white ducks came from. The Mallard has been the foundation for nearly every domestic breed of duck except for the Muscovey.

In recent years, a few new breeds of ducks have been perhaps domesticated as there are mutation colors in Mandarins, Wood Ducks, Bahama Pintails and possibly others. It doesn't take too many years to come up with something new. None of these recent ones existed when I was a kid.

Bill


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It is intersting that "feral Pigeons" are considered 'feral' oweing to an implied provenance from Lofts or Coops or Cotes in which people are imagined to have either 'kept' Pigeons, or, to have encouraged them to Nest and Roost.


...in which circumstance they have been considered to be 'Domesticated'.


In looking at images of the 'Wild' European Rock Doves, I can not see any difference between them, and, the 'feral' Pigeons I feed here every day, and whom I care for in their times of illness or inury or orphanhood.


I see no reason why any feral Pigeon Baby, born in Las Vegas, or any feral Pigeon's fertile Egg from Las Vegas, would not grow up and manage perfectly, and fit in fine, if given to an amenible mated Pair of European Rock Doves who are in their Historic and Ancestral Geographical place.


Or that a proper, formal, technically 'Wild' European Rock Dove Egg or Baby, if given to an anenible 'feral' Mated Pair here in Las Vegas, should not grow up perfectly fine, fit in perfectly, find a mate, make Babys and live a long and successful Life among the 'ferals'.

And in both cases, with nothing for anyone to notice, to have any reason to suspect anything different had happenned.




If the 'feral' Pigeon is claimed to have been subject to 'Domesticity', it would seem to me to be only one of circumstance, and not of any enduring Genetic dis-simularity to distinguish or to tell them from their historically remote Ancestors.

Having never had a European Rock Dove of any age to interact with, I have no way to know how or if they would be in any way fidderent in manner or tepreent or amenibility to being handled or interacted with.


I know Wild Doves and Songbirds have their own manner and character, and, reliably according to Species.


But the European Rock Dove, and the 'feral' Pigeon of course are the same Species.


Granted, as we all well know, there are many peculiar or particular or distinctive 'Breeds' of Pigeons whom people have developed, presumably out of hints or nuances present in the 'feral' Pigeon or Rock Dove member's own endemically occuring variations...which of course remain the 'same' Species as the E.R.D. and the feral Pigeon...


And that these Breeds, if set loose, when they can manage, would find 'feral' Mates, produce offspring which would share their traits to whatever extent, and thus lend their particulars to a succession of likely diminishing and graduated perpetuity, to where eventually, those pecular Genetic patterns, would melt 'back' into the same more sublte variations which they had arison from, or been in effect teased out of, by patient selection of people's interest to 'breed' distinct configurations.


I am not sure what my point was...long day, too tired now to think..!


Lol...


Anyway...


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*not much difference*

There would be very little difference between many ferals and the rock doves. Blue bars in particular would be hard to distinguish from the true wild rock dove. Maybe someone who sees the actual wild variety could see a difference. I think one of the main differences is in behavior and the wild bird is much more wary than the feral bird that looks the same.

Probably much like the difference in the mallards that we can raise in the barnyard vs the wild variety. The difference in appearance is rather subtle but I've seen enough of both to spot them fairly easily. Even the wild variety that interracts with people as in being fed at the park or in someones yard makes them less wild and so begins the domestication process, just simply taming or altering behavior.

The same is true of wild turkeys. The true wild birds that have little or no interraction with humans are very wary birds. Turkeys are making a big comeback in the wild in both Wisconsin and Illinois and I see them all the time. This was not true when I was young, they were nearly nonexistent and I had never seen them in my area. Many have been raised and released and while they are wild turkeys, genetically, they are different in behavior. They have little fear of humans and you often have to wait for them to get off of the road. You couldn't just walk up and catch one but it's lost it's true wild wariness.

Any of these birds are certainly able to interbreed with the true wilds and ferals and they do. They may lack some of the natural fears and escape behaviors that they need to survive in the wild but these things also seem to return over a few generations of living in the wild. The ones that choose to live in a city or near people, often learn not to fear people and even to depend on them.

OK, so I'm not sure what my point was either but maybe there is some sense in my babble.

Bill


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

just to add something about domestication. for many years i bread mice, and focused on there mutations, and genetics, and i became quite good at it. i crossed the tame domesticated mice, with the wild mice i caught in my chook pen. when the babies were born, they all looked and acted like the wild type. (very hard to catch, escaped easily, and would not come out of thee box in daylight.) however on the second generation, this behavior became less apparent, and on the third they were like regular pet mice. so in some species there fear, and "wildness", is genetically programmed. probly because the docile ones dont survive long enough, to breed in the wild. and with wild rats i fostered under a nursing female, i handled them every day yet still when they hit pubity they became aggressive and destructive and had to be released even though they were raised the same way as there foster brothers and sisters. hmmm this is a bit off topic but i thought some of you guys/gals may find it interesting.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

jbangelfish said:


> There would be very little difference between many ferals and the rock doves. Blue bars in particular would be hard to distinguish from the true wild rock dove. Maybe someone who sees the actual wild variety could see a difference. I think one of the main differences is in behavior and the wild bird is much more wary than the feral bird that looks the same.


Hi Bill,

As you say, little observable difference. The obvious thing I noted about Rock Dove flocks in their natural habitat (on a Scottish island) was simply the uniformity of plumage. Beyond that, I've since read that, again uniformly, they tend to be slightly smaller and more delicately featured than many of our mixed-parentage ferals. Couldn't tell from a distance, of course. 

They are wary, and do not venture near to the island's villages. The farmer, by whose gate I parked up, told me that they took no notice of him, but a strange car stopping would cause them to take flight. So it took three days before they would remain on their rocky outcrop way above me when I stopped the car and got out. After that, the flock accepted the car and inhabitant as 'safe' - but only as long as I didn't attempt to climb up anywhere within sight for a closer look. 

There is a difference in legal status as wild Rock Doves are protected under our wildlife laws as fully as most other bird species, unlike the feral pigeon.

John


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Some final thoughts*

It appears that the principal difference between domesticated and wild varieties of animals is the behavior. I don't think this is genetic but learned behavior as much as anything. Look at wild apes that have been studied in the wild by people such as Goodall and others. They all accepted her and interracted with her. There have been others who have done this with wolves, bears and countless other species. It just takes time to be accepted and a stranger would have to earn this trust over a long time.

I used to raise African Cichlid fish from the Rift Lakes of Africa. Sometimes, we would buy wild fish from Africa to get the best and purest genes. These fish would learn over time that I fed them and meant no harm and they would become as tame as my tank raised fish. If a stranger walked into my fish room, they would all hide in the rocks. Even fish have the ability to recognize a stranger or a friend.

I always admired the Wood Pigeon from the first time that I ever saw them when I was in the army in Germany. Large beautiful birds that were very wary birds. You could never get very close to them. Their behavior reminded me of our Mourning Doves. Even though they have learned to eat at my bird feeder, they are by no means tame in any way. Garry Landry raises the Wood Pigeons in Louisiana and says that they remain very wild even after many generations of captive breeding. You would probably have to hand feed one of these guys to tame them. I think John D had such a bird. This can even happen after nursing a sick bird back to good health, just a few days of handling and hand feeding can alter their behavior.

Wood Ducks and Teal are some of the more wary species of waterfowl for whatever reason and it's not easy to come up with calm ones even if you raise them. I had a pair of Woodies that remained so wild that they would always fly into the wire pen even though I had them and fed them for over a year. I finally let them go as I felt it cruel to keep them penned up. I had some since that were less wild but if they were not raised individually as a pet, they would always be more spooky than say Mallards or other species of wild ducks. Just what this means from a genetic or behavior standpoint, I'm not sure but some species are more prone to staying wild than others. 

I just got back from a trip to Seattle and the San Juan Islands and while in Seattle, I paid some attention to the feral pigeons there. They had little or no fear of people and merely walked out of your way on the sidewalks. I saw t patterns, checks, bars, silver, some must have been sooty or dirty factor and some white flights but no bronze or even ash red. Nothing remarkable but they looked healthy and seemed to be doing well there. I'm sure that they are considered a nuisance by most of the residents but there must be those who care and feed them as well. 

My point to all of this? Hmmm.....just some observations and ramblings on the subject of domestication, feral animals and so forth. Thanks for reading.

Bill


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## jeepsterwannabe (Jun 22, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> The ones they showed looked like *what used to be called 'Texas Longhorns'*, only narrower in the body -
> 
> 
> Some people had a bunch of *old stock 'Texas Longhorns' *on a small Ranch where I used to hike when I was a kid.


They are still called Texas Longhorns, 
I worked on a Longhorn ranch for a couple years, they were extremely docile most of the year, even eat out your hand, but once those cows started dropping babies it was a different ball game. those mama cows became very undomesticated!!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi all,

I know this thread hasn't been posted to for a while, but I thought I'd give my five cents worth.

_Columba guinea_ is indigenous in South Africa where I live. My father told me that his grandfather used to keep a few of them along with his racing homers. So when I got my first pigeons as a teen, I stole the eggs off a pair nesting on an awning at my grandmother's house and put them under a homer pair.

Only one of the eggs hatched. I gave particular attention to the baby and handled it often as it grew, and it definitely was WILD. Clicking and snapping at me from a young age, as well as buffeting me with it's wings. The surrogate pair I had him under were both very docile, so it definitely did not learn the behaviour from them.

It grew wilder as it aged, and by the time it fledged, I could hardly catch it without serious effort. After a few more weeks, I gave up on trying to tame it. It would fly into the cage mesh the moment I set foot in my loft. They seem to be just naturally flighty and panicky. It never grew to trust me.

As a young bird I was afraid to let it out with the homers, but it escaped one morning, and flew off. I was sure I would never see it again, but that evening as the other birds landed after their exercise, the Speckled YB trapped with them. From then on I let it fly free often, and it would fly off, only to return at night to sleep in the loft.

Though there were no wild speckled pigeons in the area I lived (my grandmother lived 3 hours away), I never managed to mate up the speckled (who turned out to be a female) with any of my pigeons, not by confinement nor free mating nor removing them to a separate cage where neither could see (or hear) the other pigeons. I tried unsuccessfully for three years. This makes me seriously disbelieve that any fanciers ever made such crosses very often. Yes, in the 20th century scientists did manage crosses, but I tend to agree with Frank that it is highly unlikely that the genes of other species than _Columba livia_ live on in our current domesticated stock.

I now have two pair of wild speckled pigeons breeding on my patio of all places! I've watched them brood while I was watching TV. They roost on my roof most of the time, but in spring summer and autumn, I often wake up in the morning with the male cooing feverishly at the hen. I think I will again steal a few eggs, and hand feed the babies this time to see how tame they can actually become.

I've hand raised a few orphaned _Streptopelia senegalensis, Streptopelia roseogrisea and Streptopelia semitorquata_ from wild stock that people have brought to me, and they have always been very tame. Free flying, they would fly in and out of the house throughout the day, and roost in my room at night. That is until they reached sexual maturity and left to find mates in the wild abundant populations.

Time will tell if the Speckled pigeons will prove to be similar.

Maybe one day there will be another domesticated pigeon breed! ;-)

Regards,
Rudolph


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

"Wildness" is inherited. 
When I was an undergrad I did a project on mice and found research, that someone had done, that had predictably measured "wildness" in house mice by measuring how fast they ran from the center of a room to the wall. The more domestic house mouse blood the longer it took for them to get to the safer spots by the wall.
By the way, I have a long horn heffer named Praline. She uses her horns to push around the large angus bull and cows she is with.
Keith


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Rudolph and Keith*

Yes, wildness is inherited but it can be reprogrammed, so to speak, over time.
When birds and other animals begin to associate us with food, they do tend to become less wary and can even learn to trust us completely. This can be very dangerous for both man and animals, as has been proven with some of the more dangerous animals that learn not to fear man. They are still wild animals and deserve our respect. It can be dangerous for the animals if they learn to trust us as they are easy targets for a hunter or person of ill will toward them.

In bird species, many are more readily tamed than others. This must have to do with the genetic makeup of certain species and even certain breeds. German toys tend to be wilder than many breeds of pigeons, especially certain breeds such as Saxon whitetails, in the stenciled varieties. Have to wonder why. Many say the Starlings are also very wild and the few that I have are certainly wilder than my rollers or other breeds.

A friend of mine has some wild rock doves and he says they are very wild, even after generations of breeding in captivity. Garry Landry has said the same of wood pigeons. They remain very wild generation after generation.

When I raised wood ducks, I started with one hen that was found on a busy road as a day old youngster by a friend of mine. I took it and raised it in the house as a pet. Raising them this way causes "imprinting" on humans and makes a bird with no fear of man. I bought a drake for her after she grew up and they raised many young. Our pet "Woodie" remained tame throughout her life and her young were not tame but not nearly as wild as other wood ducks either.

This kind of behavioral change is probably the beginning of the domestication process and has been going on for many thousands of years with many different species. Whether this "imprinting" is the key to starting the process, I don't know but it seems to help. There was a study done somewhere that related to this and a process was discovered that showed genetic changes going on, merely by environmental influence. I'm sure this is the same thing and I do not remember what it was called. Interesting stuff though.

Again, I hope that some of this is thought about or researched in the genetics project going on in Utah. Why some breeds remain more wild or more stubborn to tame is mysterious but I suspect some strong genes that relate to a wild dove or pigeon that was not easily tamed. Even C Livia has proven to be very wild and not easily tamed. What else might we have? I have no idea but I'll be surprised if we don't find something else.

Bill


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't think there are any other domestic pigeons because birds in the wild always end up wild.

I've had domestic pigeons and now I have feral pigeons (the ones with the red-orange eyes). The feral pigeons behave very different from the domestics. They do let me walk up to them and kiss them (I raised them after all) but if they see my hand, they wing slap me. They then start growling. Very WILD. The ferals also stay near their nest all day and defend it, instead of routing far and wide like my domestics. The domestics are much more docile but also fly around more.

The feral pigeon parents are also very aggressive against their young after about 5-6 weeks. The ferals are also more sexually active.

My ferals are not afraid of people so I guess you can say they are tamer than other ferals, but they are definitely not as tame as domestics.

Researchers say that ferals are by far the best in surviving in the wild, better than wild european rock pigeons and far better than domestics. Ferals are better adapted to living in cities as well as environments similar to where the wild rock pigeons lived.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Columba leuconota - Snow Pigeon










Origin of Gazzi?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh wow, what a beautiful bird! I can tell feral or wild from domestic runaways, the wild pigeons seem to have smaller orange/red eyes, and a small cere. our domestic pigeons seem to have bigger eyes and a larger cere.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

We have White Crowned Pigeons here in Key West. They are a native species and not a type of Rock Dove. This is their mating season and I will try to get a photo. Jim


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I can tell feral or wild from domestic runaways, the wild pigeons seem to have smaller orange/red eyes, and a small cere. our domestic pigeons seem to have bigger eyes and a larger cere.


i've noticed the same, i thought i was imagining it. and if a domestic and feral mater, the offspring looks and behaves more like a feral.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*This is what I've wondered*



Henk69 said:


> Columba leuconota - Snow Pigeon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Henk, I've wondered the very same thing.

I've seen these, tried to find some but to no avail. I would love to be able to test this with gazzi. I talked with one person who had some wild snow pigeons and they were unable to get them to breed, even after years of having them. 

I wonder if a pair that was hand raised would breed in captivity and would expect that they would. It seems perfectly plausible that our ancestors would have figured this out as well. People long ago figured things out that we still cannot understand. Much of what they did was out of necessity (food) but a sideline to necesssity was the creation of pets and domesticated animals.

There are other wild doves similar to the snow pigeon that have a type of stencil factor, as does the speckled pigeon. One has a stencil tail like frill stencil or Lebanons. There are also some with bronzes. Where might bronze come from in the rock dove? I don't see it but I do see it in some of the wild doves. There would be a number of wild doves with bronze, crests, feathered legs etc.

Some people think that the barless gene may come from the wood pigeon or something similar. Some genetic experts now feel that barless is not part of the normal pattern series (bar, check and t pattern). This might help explain why.

Bill


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