# Honeymoon is over :-(



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

I had a great breakthrough w/Brownie for awhile. He still talks to me all the time.

I was able to handle him previously. I could get him to hop into my hand and hold him for a lengthy period. I could also pet him all over his head and body.

Suddenly he began pecking at me, and grabbing my finger in his beak. I don't think he's playing.

The only reason I can think of for his displeasure is when I take him out of his day-outside cage and put him back in his large night cage it's very hard for me to "catch" him. I have no problem the other direction, I can still get him to hop on my hand. But the small cage is too cramped to easily do that.

Any suggestions how I can win his love and trust back? I can't even hand feed him anymore without a few preliminary pecks. Then he decides the food is worth it and settles down.

Any and all advice very welcome.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How old is Brownie? I've had a few squeakers that, when they got to the equivalent to "teenager" status, they got real rebellious and did that same behavior.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brownlie may be protecting his territory when you are moving him from one cage to another.

Also, he is getting used to you and treating you, like he would, another pigeon.


I have a pet, that I am currently taking care of who roo-koos everytime I'm within view. When I take him out of his carrier and move him to the big cage he bites the heck out of my hands, it is an all out war! 

He is going thru a period of adjustment, as well as showing he is not afraid of me, and defends his territory, however, I think there are more issues with this pet. His owners did not want him anymore, and he is used to quite a different routine from mine.

I would offer him snacks of peanuts or other things he likes from your hand. Talk to him lovingly, and be patient. There are issues that need to be worked out, depending on what happened to him in his past.


----------



## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

I have tried offering my bird peanuts and treats from a flat palm up approach but she ignores the treats and goes for the hand, the only way I have found to get her to look for treats is if i hold a handfull of seeds or treats and let her beak peck between my fingers, she eventually realised that Im usually tring to share and not going to take her nest space. I still cant get her to try greens or peanuts though.

Mine only is grumpy in her cage, maybe it would be easier to try in a neutral area that Brownie hasnt claimed as his?


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I had the same experience as you Brownieluv. The pecking at my hand seemed at bit ferocious too and now that his beak has hardened up with age, or sharpened from use, it hurts! I think the problem all started when I was trying to first encourage him to eat by pecking at his seeds with my finger. Ever since then he associates my hand as though it is another bird.

I notice that there is a mental disconnect in my birds mind between me and my hand. I am Ok, the hand is not however I eventually got past the problem after reading about shaking the seed can at dinner time. Now, he still occassionally pecks my hand but never when I am holding the seed can and he will follow just about anywhere I go while shaking it. 

Cameron


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just a comment about "treats"...

I had mentioned in a past post about Mr. Squeaks getting hemp seeds as a treat and how he really liked them. Well, guess what, I found something else he likes EVEN BETTER - SAFFLOWER SEEDS!  

Cindy (AZWhitefeather) and I picked up some today for our respective birds. I just bought a little to add to the mix of seeds I already feed. I had no idea how Squeaks would react to them, so, just for fun, I placed a few on the ground. Well, let me tell you...I now have an ADDICTED PIGEON! He went berserk and gobbled those seeds down like he hadn't eaten in a MONTH! Fortunately, he can't get into the package or I would probably be running to the Vet with a pigeon so full he couldn't walk! I sure hope Safflower seeds aren't the "heroin" of the pigeon world or Mr. Squeaks is in deep doo-doo! And all it took was a FEW seeds! *sigh* Cindy and I think Squeaks is a spoiled rotten bird...gee, ya think????


----------



## Guest (Jan 26, 2006)

*Deja vu*

This seems to be a recurring issue brought up in Pigeon-Talk. "My pigeon used to be so nice, but now he's mean!" This seems to be part of normal development.

I do think there is indeed a tense relationship between pigeon and hands...especially fingers. It does seem to be a territory related issue.

I think it's hard for lots of pigeon owners to deal with this. We love our birds, but they don't always show love in return. 

Well...I guess we just have to love them anyway! 

Monica


----------



## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

My pigeon mix has safflower in it, and that used to be what my pige would eat first, now that she is older its not the first choice anymore. 
I wonder why.


----------



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

*Pecking*



Pidgey said:


> How old is Brownie? I've had a few squeakers that, when they got to the equivalent to "teenager" status, they got real rebellious and did that same behavior.
> 
> Pidgey


He is 2, almost 3. Does that still qualify as teenager. Also it was a very abrupt, overnight change.


----------



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

*Sounds good*



Trees Gray said:


> Brownlie may be protecting his territory when you are moving him from one cage to another.
> 
> Also, he is getting used to you and treating you, like he would, another pigeon.
> 
> ...


If it was only an issue when I was moving him I could understand. But it is a constant, with no real let-up. Very depressing.

On the other hand, he seems to be getting more needy and dependent. He calls me and squawks more and more frequently, and won't stop until I come and talk to him.

It's comforting to hear that you're experiencing almost the identical behavior. At least I know it's not some deep problem in our relationship.


----------



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

*lol*



mr squeaks said:


> Just a comment about "treats"...
> 
> I had mentioned in a past post about Mr. Squeaks getting hemp seeds as a treat and how he really liked them. Well, guess what, I found something else he likes EVEN BETTER - SAFFLOWER SEEDS!
> 
> Cindy (AZWhitefeather) and I picked up some today for our respective birds. I just bought a little to add to the mix of seeds I already feed. I had no idea how Squeaks would react to them, so, just for fun, I placed a few on the ground. Well, let me tell you...I now have an ADDICTED PIGEON! He went berserk and gobbled those seeds down like he hadn't eaten in a MONTH! Fortunately, he can't get into the package or I would probably be running to the Vet with a pigeon so full he couldn't walk! I sure hope Safflower seeds aren't the "heroin" of the pigeon world or Mr. Squeaks is in deep doo-doo! And all it took was a FEW seeds! *sigh* Cindy and I think Squeaks is a spoiled rotten bird...gee, ya think????


Squeaks will have to go to bird rehab soon. BTW, thanks to your advice, I ordered a flight suit a few days ago, and can't wait to let Brownie have the run of the living room. (supervised of course)


----------



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

*Well, glad it's normal but I'm not happy!*



Monica said:


> This seems to be a recurring issue brought up in Pigeon-Talk. "My pigeon used to be so nice, but now he's mean!" This seems to be part of normal development.
> 
> I do think there is indeed a tense relationship between pigeon and hands...especially fingers. It does seem to be a territory related issue.
> 
> ...


A different topic, but I'm trying not to post so many different threads. I work at home, so I hear a lot of the crying for attention. It's becoming more and more frequent.

I don't have children, so I don't have experience dealing with this. (My cats and dogs could just come to me when they wanted affection.)

I've always believed the "let them cry till they fall asleep" philosophy was cruel. But I seem to be making things worse by always responding. Any advice?


----------



## joefi2 (Aug 11, 2005)

*Old Timer*

Good Evening I Also Have A Little Pig Eon,, My First, That,s What Started It All, Different Story. He Fight With Me Every Day Jump,s On My Head And Shoulder Nibbles At My Ear And When He Is In The Hand He,s Biteing Also I Think It A Game With The Tame One,s The Other,s Wont Even Let Me Hold Them And As For Safflower Seed,s They Go Nut,s Over Them ,they Would Let There Other Seed,s Go To Waste It It Was Up To Them I Think All Who Have A Pet Pigeon That Bite,s Their Hand Is Lucky They Are Showing Love Ever Watch A Male And Female How The Mail Is Alway,s Picking On The Hen Well Your His Sole Mate ,, By By


----------



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

joefi2 said:


> Good Evening I Also Have A Little Pig Eon,, My First, That,s What Started It All, Different Story. He Fight With Me Every Day Jump,s On My Head And Shoulder Nibbles At My Ear And When He Is In The Hand He,s Biteing Also I Think It A Game With The Tame One,s The Other,s Wont Even Let Me Hold Them And As For Safflower Seed,s They Go Nut,s Over Them ,they Would Let There Other Seed,s Go To Waste It It Was Up To Them I Think All Who Have A Pet Pigeon That Bite,s Their Hand Is Lucky They Are Showing Love Ever Watch A Male And Female How The Mail Is Alway,s Picking On The Hen Well Your His Sole Mate ,, By By


How sweet. Thank you. I hope you're right.

Last note for tonight. I fed the whole flock, starting at 13 birds for about 6 months, and never had a single peck. Maybe they were so starving they didn't dare.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brownieluv,


Yahhhhh...I always considered it 'normal' and healthy that they bite and peck to assert how they are not afraid ( any more) and or are comfortable and accepting of us enough to treat us 'like' a peer.

Even some of the Morning Doves I have had, will Wing Slap and bite and peck me if they feel I am intrudeing or that I was not being well mannered in respecting their space and self.

Now too, I am dealing with the Wild or feral ones, and some of these are here sometimes for a while to get well or healed-up for release back to the wild Worlds, and curiously, some of these become quite friendly quite fast, and others, while becomeing quite 'comfortable' and accepting, will simply insist in their own way that they do not wish to be touched.

Now, once free roveing, pending release, some of these are comfortable enough to be inches from me or from my face if they are perched on something of that height, and are for me to talk with them or visit, but, they simply do not like being touched or handled.

Others will let me pick them up, and, of course, I always ask them, and show them my hands first, and then do the deed. They may cringe, but they let me do it. So I only do it for some necessary inspection or examining usually, but sometimes I do it just because I want them to know I will do it sometimes and that it is no big deal...

Most Pigeons I think find their fine sense of balance insulted or disturbed when we pick them up. Some do not mind, some like it even, and others will even let one do full body massages and massage their Wings and Feet and Toes holding them any which way...they are all different, each is an individual...

Anyway, the best method I know of, and the one I use for lifting or picking up Pigeons ( bearing in mind these are usually new arrives or Birds who have been here only some weeks at most, ) is to ask them first, and sort of explain it to them short and sweet, that I need to 'see' something and to hold them to do it...usually this begins while they are still in t heir initial 'observation' cages or not yet ready for free-roveing in here. So, it begins on day one usually.

Then, palms up, little fingers together, I slip my hands like that, under them from the front, so that my little fingers are inside their legs, and my palms lightly against their sides and Wings...then, keeping them level and easy, I gently, slowly, lift and cup them lightly that way. Many hardly seem to notice they are being lifted, if one does this gently and slowly while hardly pressing their sides at all...they will 'float' that way, usually without protest for at least some many seconds, and some much longer.

Almost any Pigeon will agree to being lifted this way, but many will become fuss-budgets after a few moments of it...Lol...

Those who are hurt or ill or not feeling well, sometimes seem to like being held this way...it is warm, it is snuggley, and the light 'squeeze' option I think feels good to them, and they will often simply close their eyes and drift off to dreamland for a while being held like that.

This way too, their legs merely dangle below, relaxed, and have nothing to press against...

Anyway, it is a good way to get them from one cage to another, or, initially, to hold them pending an examination which will of course be disagreeable to them compared to the ease of this floaty-hold...


Rambley...

Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 3, 2006)

i agree with whats posted here. Checkers also "attacked" me briefly, especially if i was handling her food and water, or if i had to handle her foot/leg. it may just be a "phase" he is going through. i think it does have to do mostly with independence, protecting territory, and "testing" their limits. i wonder if males are more aggressive then the females? Checkers is so laid back, but my male ring-neck dove, Kachina, can be very aggressive toward me.


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Brownieluv,
I read your post twice but am not sure I understand what you meant yet but here goes:

Quote"_*A different topic, but I'm trying not to post so many different threads. I work at home, so I hear a lot of the crying for attention. It's becoming more and more frequent.

I don't have children, so I don't have experience dealing with this. (My cats and dogs could just come to me when they wanted affection.)

I've always believed the "let them cry till they fall asleep" philosophy was cruel. But I seem to be making things worse by always responding. Any advice*?_Quote

I also have no children and live alone. It is puzzling to me why my bird would bite the "hand that feeds him" when he knows full well I am the only one in the house besides him. He does love attention and is quite happy sleeping in my boots while I watch TV or go on-line but this territorial thing is outside my understanding. Pigeons just don't think like people. Mine does not cry for attention so to speak but has shown signs of stress if I am gone from the house too long. He heads straight for me when I come home yet instantly reverts to the pecking and biting if a hand comes near. LOL!

I try to give him as much attention as he needs when I am here and am happy to tolerate the hand pecking that gets dished out to me. I have noticed it is my general company that he likes best. To be near me, sitting close by (even sleeping on my pillow if I go for a snooze) or just listening to me talk. 

Like Phil said in his post, this may just be good, healthy pigeon behavior. We should perhaps be honored to be considered one of them and be accepted into their pigeon world. As for running to attend to their every need...well, if that makes both of you happy, what the heck. Friends are friends after all. Can't we spoil are good friends? Best of luck.

Cameron


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

We all know that pigeons have their own personalities. Some males are very aggressive and other aren't. Some females, the same way...Squeaks was a "pill" while his wing was in the "healing" stage. Once he healed completely, he became a completely different bird. I am his mate and he always wants to be where I am and will follow me wherever I go. I try and let him out to have the run of the apartment as much as possible. Since I am on "permanent vacation," this poses a probem when I leave for any length of time. If I put him in his home while I get dressed or take a shower and don't want him in the way, he'll STOMP and let me know he wants OUT - NOW! Once I'm out of sight and sound, he's fine. 

He has also decided that my feet and sock or pants are "enemies!" This can be quite frustrating when I'm trying to fix a meal or do dishes and he's attacking as hard as he can! Woe to me if I DON'T have something protecting my foot - his beak pecks on bare skin smarts!

Yes, he's a spoiled bird and therein lies the rub...he loves his attention and when he doesn't get it, in the manner he wants, he can become a little brat! Who knows...maybe, birds, too, need structure and, sometimes, tough love. Maybe they are trying to say that they need MORE attention, hence the pecking. And, of course, they may just be doing what pigeons do among their own kind - we are just a "strange" looking bird!


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hey Mr Squeaks,

That stomping you are talking about,... I just noticed it in "Buddy" the other day. Is it a male trait possibly. When I was on the farm the sheep would stamp too (in their own way). As if! It didn't scare anyone but to them it was a signal to stay away especially if they had young around. 

One thing that I have learned and I don't know if this is of value to anyone but animals that are "prey species", that is, animals that are not predators or carnivores, behave in very peculiar and unique ways. I worked with pigs for some time and you will know from my previous posts that I adore pigs.

The thing about them is that while you would assume a prey species like pigs would behave as if to run away from danger or threats you would be wrong. They don't run but instead hold their ground and tend to get aggressive especially when food is involved. The same goes for pigeons and as I have already noted this goes for sheep too. I have to wonder why is it that they all stand their ground with so much vigor, determination and force. Predatory animals just don't behave the same way the way I see it.

So the way I see it some prey species do stand their ground. Rabbits run afterall and wolves chase for the thrill of the hunt. It may be that pigeon logic is simple and yet well founded. Running away can mean death, standing fast; survival. To me this may explain why so many people have pigeons that baffle them by biting, pecking and wing slapping. In my mind it is a very deep programming in them that is there to ensure the survival of the species itself. How else can their actions be explained. 

So, my feelings aren't hurt when "Buddy" pecks me. He is just keeping the pigeon faith and doing as pigeons have done since time immemorial. While I don't ever threaten him, I do think he responds to me from a place where anything that is not a pigeon is possibly something that would make a meal of a pigeon. From that point of veiw I try to cut him a little slack and not make him love me in the way people understand affection from a creature. I just let him be himself and admire his bravery and courage. I'm running on though....talk to you again later,

Cameron


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Actually, Cameron, I think you are correct. Now that I think about it, Squeaks does TWO TYPES: stamping and stomping and they are quite different. The "stamping" will be done if he doesn't want me to pick him up and also when he can't decide which way to go to get away. The "stomping" is only done in his home when he wants OUT. He will be on his small platform which contains his food, grit and water and then hop/jump to the cage bottom which causes a rather loud noise. He also has a branch that he uses to hop/jump down from to make the same type of loud noise. BIG difference than just walking around his home. His cage is next to my bed and, in the morning, when he REALLY wants my attention, he'll start the stomping bit to wake me up. I'm usually laughing so hard that I can't go back to sleep anyway!

I haven't used an alarm clock in YEARS! My cat, Bubba, always makes sure I wake up to feed everyone. He either breathes in my face, yanks my hair or gently paws my face. Now, Squeaks has joined in the fun with his "stomping." *sigh* oh well, I needed to get up anyway!


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Brownieluv mentioned how her bird still talks to her all the time. I don't know about your bird Mr Squeaks but mine does a beautiful owl-sounding growl in the morning telling me to get out of bed and feed him. I can mimic it almost perfectly and he responds in harmony. I feel like Jim Carey doing a roo-coo-cooing in "Pet Detective". Lord, glad no one is around to see and hear me, I would get locked up for sure!

Cameron


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Camrron said:


> Brownieluv mentioned how her bird still talks to her all the time. I don't know about your bird Mr Squeaks but mine does a beautiful owl-sounding growl in the morning telling me to get out of bed and feed him. I can mimic it almost perfectly and he responds in harmony. I feel like Jim Carey doing a roo-coo-cooing in "Pet Detective". Lord, glad no one is around to see and hear me, I would get locked up for sure!
> 
> Cameron


Well, then that's gonna be one CROWDED cell! I think everyone on this site will be locked up with you! Hey, just be glad you're inside - just think what people would think if you were feeding the ferals and not only "talking" to them but mimicking their body language!  

I am also getting a very definite feeling that not all male pigeons make the same kinds of sounds. When visiting Cindy, her Pij, made the funniest "wak wak" noise when talking to his mate, Rae Charles, the blind one. That sound just cracked me up! Squeaks will sometimes growl, does the male courting coo (I call "chortle"), makes a soft moaning sound and then a combination of loud/soft moaning when he wants attention. When I 'answer' him, I think I lose something in the translation because he just gets louder and more insistent! I hate to say this, but I think he's swearing at me! Can be hard trying to learn a "foreign language." LOL


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I just know I have seen a good book somewhere on "pidjin" english. If I can find out the author I will pass it on.  

Cameron


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*


Camrron said:



I just know I have seen a good book somewhere on "pidjin" english. If I can find out the author I will pass it on.  

Cameron

Click to expand...

*Verrry funny! verrry funny!  

BTW, Brownieluv, Squeaks is in a different category than most because he can't fly and thus, gets handled A LOT. ALSO, he considers me his mate which may also have an effect on his actions...Maybe pet pigeons who fly can be more independent? 

Again, I'm sure much depends on the individual bird as has been mentioned - also the difference in breed temperment.


----------



## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

Camrron said:


> The thing about them is that while you would assume a prey species like pigs would behave as if to run away from danger or threats you would be wrong. They don't run but instead hold their ground and tend to get aggressive especially when food is involved. The same goes for pigeons and as I have already noted this goes for sheep too. I have to wonder why is it that they all stand their ground with so much vigor, determination and force. Predatory animals just don't behave the same way the way I see it.
> 
> So the way I see it some prey species do stand their ground. Rabbits run afterall and wolves chase for the thrill of the hunt. It may be that pigeon logic is simple and yet well founded. Running away can mean death, standing fast; survival. To me this may explain why so many people have pigeons that baffle them by biting, pecking and wing slapping. In my mind it is a very deep programming in them that is there to ensure the survival of the species itself. How else can their actions be explained.
> Cameron


I think this is true, but it depends on the circumstance. My pigeon will run away when she sees something unknown, Balloons for example... lol
I hid some in her room to supprise my boyfriend for his birthday and she paniced and ran away. But on the other hand my bunny will get brave and do some pounce attacks on some of his toys, or my hands if they crawl to him (a game we play). 

Then again there may just be something about inflated baloons... my dog will go crazy and bark and growl viscously at balloons but she loves anything else round that resembles a ball.


----------



## Brownieluv (Dec 12, 2005)

*So many great answers*

I loved reading all your replies/stories. I can't do them justice tonight; I have to go give boyfriend a little bit of quality time. (Between Brownie and you-all not much left for him anymore!)

Really fun hearing about all the differences and similarities with our birds.

Thank heavens for those of you more experienced helping the newbies like me. Thanks!


----------



## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I have one pigeon in my flock, his name is Pi and he's about 3 months old. He grabs my finger and will bite me whenever possible and then "coo-coo" around when I back off. I pet him all the time--and he won't fly away--justs grabs my finger. He will also fly ont my arm if he is hungry and eat out of my hand. Personally, I think he likes me, but can't admit it. Only one other bird out of my 21 will land on me and that's because he just loves to eat! Pi is a male and I have never had a female try to bite me--but they do slap. He has turned into one of my best flyers and will even fly to the ground next to me when I am outside on occasion and "coo-coo". I think he is falling in love with another now, so I get less attention from him--but he'll still give me a good bite if I try and pet him. Go figure!


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I have been trying that pigeon "floating" technique of yours Phil and have to say I have had really good results. Funny, I could not remember until tonight when I re-read this thread where I had got the idea or who had said it but i am glad I heard it. The pidgies just sort of go into a trance and accept this lift with dignity (most-times anyway). After a few seconds though they catch on and return to their normal selves! Bad birds!

Cameron


----------

