# linebreeding/ inbreading



## lQQl (Dec 30, 2008)

I have done a lot of reading into this subject and it seems that more i read more confused i get.....all the resources that I go through are not specific as how to bread ............lets just say that i get my hands on an outstanding champion........then what?.......how do I go about inbreading/ linebreadingg it?......what is the difference between inbreading and line breading?......any input or thought into the matter would be greatly apreciated......


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

lQQl said:


> I have done a lot of reading into this subject and it seems that more i read more confused i get.....all the resources that I go through are not specific as how to bread ............lets just say that i get my hands on an outstanding champion........then what?.......how do I go about inbreading/ linebreadingg it?......what is the difference between inbreading and line breading?......any input or thought into the matter would be greatly apreciated......


 *Hi lQQl, When you inbreed you mate the father back to his best daugher and never mate a brother to a sister. The reason that you mate the best daugher back to the father its his good genes that you are trying to fix into your family, remember that he also has genes that you don't want and he will pass some of those along with the good genes,now if you were luckey enough to get two good daughers thats all the better as that will give you two hens to work with also if you get a very good grandaugher you mate her to him remember you are trying to get the best of his gene pool. Now if you have a brother and a sister of the good cock these would be aunts and uncles of the young that your good cock has bred . WHEN YOU DO THIS YOU ARE NOW LINE BREEDING so we can say that linebreeding is aunts,uncles, and cousins matings and you can aways mate the good cock back to any of the good hens from the linebred group. BUT NEVER FORGET THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO GET YOUNG THAT HAVE PICKED UP THE GOOD GENES and you get some that will pick up bad genes that are still in the gene pool. I hope that I have not confused you, I am sure that there will be others that will answer this thread so lets see what they might say. *GEORGE


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

In reality, any form of linebreeding is, to some degree, a form of inbreeding. George is correct by most people's standards but everyone will look at these forms of breeding in different lights. How much is too much? Is there such a thing as too much? How close is too close? These are all questions different people will have different responses for. Just remember that the closer they are, the more concentrated the gene pool, both good and bad. The closer the parents, the more selective you will have to be in deciding what you breed out of the next generation. This is often referred to as "culling" but in this sense we are talking about removing the undersirable individual from the breeding program, not culling as in killing.

This is where breeding really becomes an art and like any great artist, the master breeder will know what he/she is striving for and what they need to further themselves towards those goals.

Dan


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## lQQl (Dec 30, 2008)

...thank you for reply guys......so I will go ahead and bread his daughter back to him and acording to george I can do this again to an outstanding granddaughter.......mate her back to her grandfather and lets just say for argument sake I came out with another great hen ......that would be fourth generation, then what? do I have to bring in new blood before things get out of hand or can I keep doing this breading the hen back to the champion cock?........


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*You can do this forever*

If the bird that you started with is what you want, keep breeding it's offspring back to it, generation after generation and the young will keep getting purer to what you started with, if that makes sense. Doesn't matter which you start with, perfect male, perfect female, just keep breeding their offspring back to them and eventually you get as close to your original bird as you can. 

When the original bird is too old to continue this process, start over with the most perfect bird that you have again. If you start this process with your two best birds, you can begin two lines from them. This is done with fish, birds and just about everything else.

Bill


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## lQQl (Dec 30, 2008)

.....this is making things a lot clearer.....but lets just say that after fourth generation im getting some serious signs of inbreading and decide to bring in an outcross......where do i introduce this outcross?......back to the original bird?......or into the 2nd or third generation?.......


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

lQQl said:


> .....this is making things a lot clearer.....but lets just say that after fourth generation im getting some serious signs of inbreading and decide to bring in an outcross......where do i introduce this outcross?......back to the original bird?......or into the 2nd or third generation?.......


*HI lQQl,*I think that you may have mis understood,you inbreed and then take the best and linebreed to aunts ,uncles and cosins.But you can go back to the cock from time to time to breed some more inbreds to use in your line breeding. .............GEORGE


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

Fascinating! I love this type of discussion. But please clarify the difference between line breeding and inbreeding. I am led to believe that if I cross brother and sister, it is inbreeding, but if I cross father/daughter, grandfather/granddaughter, that is line breeding.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It's all inbreeding*

Anything within family lines is inbreeding. Brother to sister is close inbreeding and somewhat risky. I don't practice this very often as the bad stuff often seems to outweigh the good. Being able to recognize if things are going the right way or the wrong way are not always so easy and the brother sister matings are one that I usually avoid. Never say never however.

Line breeding is as George says and others have said. Mothers to sons and fathers to daughters. If the starting bird is so superior that you want the young to have as much of it's blood as possible, you can keep bringing successive generations of young back to the original parent. This is pure line breeding.

In my way of thinking, if you breed to an aunt or an uncle, you are going outside of a line, from a purist point of view. Siblings, while closely related, could still each have their own line and have differences in genetics from one another. It is inbreeding but I wouldn't call it true line breeding. Could I be wrong? Entirely possible, this is just how I look at it and have used what I call linebreeding in many species of animals from fish to birds to cattle and horses.

Bill


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

george simon said:


> *HI lQQl,*I think that you may have mis understood,you inbreed and then take the best and linebreed to aunts ,uncles and cosins.But you can go back to the cock from time to time to breed some more inbreds to use in your line breeding. .............GEORGE


I thought I had it figured out and then George left this comment.....



> If the bird that you started with is what you want, keep breeding it's offspring back to it, generation after generation and the young will keep getting purer to what you started with, if that makes sense. Doesn't matter which you start with, perfect male, perfect female, just keep breeding their offspring back to them and eventually you get as close to your original bird as you can.
> 
> When the original bird is too old to continue this process, start over with the most perfect bird that you have again. If you start this process with your two best birds, you can begin two lines from them. This is done with fish, birds and just about everything else.
> 
> Bill


This made perfect sense Bill but when George added the aunt and uncle thing I just got more confused. Can someone clarify the aunt, uncle and cousin thing? Where would they come into the mix?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

UncleBuck said:


> Fascinating! I love this type of discussion. But please clarify the difference between line breeding and inbreeding. I am led to believe that if I cross brother and sister, it is inbreeding, but if I cross father/daughter, grandfather/granddaughter, that is line breeding.


 Hi BUCK, When you breed father to daughter that is true inbreeding. Remember when you inbreed you are trying to fix the gene pool of one of the parents in which case if it is the male parent you must breed him back to his best daughter,if its the female parent you must breed the best son back to her.Always remember that you are trying to fix the best genes of the parent into your family. When you breed brother to sister you are creating a mixed gene pool of both parents.So look at it this way the daughter has 1/2 of her gene pool from the father now when you mate her back to her father their young will now have3/4 of their gene pool from the FATHER. With brother to sister you will always have 1/2 father gene pool and 1/2 mother gene pool. I hope that I have not confused you ......GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I thought I had it figured out and then George left this comment.....
> 
> 
> 
> This made perfect sense Bill but when George added the aunt and uncle thing I just got more confused. Can someone clarify the aunt, uncle and cousin thing? Where would they come into the mix?


 Hi Henry, Let me put it this way once you have fix the gene pool of the father or mother into the family then you can start to line breed. Most people seem to think that the gene pool is fix after the first mating always remember that you inbreed to fix the gene pool of the best parent once this is done then you can line breed birds from that new family(gene pool).These birds are now aunts, uncles cosins that are carring the new gene pool. .....GEORGE


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

George, That makes more sense, in a short paragraph, than all the other dang articles I have read! Thank you. I will keep that principle in mind with my breeding program.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

george simon said:


> Hi Henry, Let me put it this way once you have fix the gene pool of the father or mother into the family then you can start to line breed. Most people seem to think that the gene pool is fix after the first mating always remember that you inbreed to fix the gene pool of the best parent once this is done then you can line breed birds from that new family(gene pool).These birds are now aunts, uncles cosins that are carring the new gene pool. .....GEORGE


I think I get it now. So if you breed back to the father let's say 4 times that would weed out almost all the bad genes and you would end up with a fixed gene pool? From there you can line breed with brothers and sisters to produce pure birds of whatever bloodline you have? Did I get this right or am I totally off? Thanks for being patient George!......I want to get this linebreeding/inbreeding down packed!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*One Man's Breeding Plan....To Build a Strain*



lQQl said:


> I have done a lot of reading into this subject and it seems that more i read more confused i get.....all the resources that I go through are not specific as how to bread ............lets just say that i get my hands on an outstanding champion........then what?.......how do I go about inbreading/ linebreadingg it?......what is the difference between inbreading and line breading?......any input or thought into the matter would be greatly apreciated......


It has been said, that a picture is worth a thousand words. I don't know about most of you folks, but my eyes typically begin to glaze over once someone tries to explain verbally how you proceed after the first generation. Once upon a time, I had shared this somewhere on this site, and on my web site. I never completed this chart anywhere near to the end, because along the way, I either breed or acquire something which is better. But, I think this chart can help people visualize one example of some severe inbreeding. There are not really that many generations involved, but producing a bird which is worthy of moving to the next pairing as shown on this chart, could in my estimation take several seasons, and the closer one gets in terms of inbreeding, the more challenging it becomes. For all I know, in order to complete this listed plan, could take a human lifetime. Because of the time involved, I would never consider even attempting such a long range breeding program, unless you are starting with very high quality stock in the very first place. And by that, I mean a pair which you would consider as near to perfect in every way. If you are starting with birds that don't have the traits you want in the first place, then what is the point ?


Enjoy:


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

I glaze over just hearing those words line breeding lol , reading is fun for mentals I mean a fundamental  *kidding*


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## lQQl (Dec 30, 2008)

.......thanks a lot Warren that was exactly what I was looking for.......Constantin


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lQQl said:


> .......thanks a lot Warren that was exactly what I was looking for.......Constantin


 Just a point of reference, this is not the only way of course, but it is a plan. Or should I say a road map. I have attempted with success, different variations. Now, if I do happen to discover a perfect system, or even near perfect, most likely I would not share it on a public site such as this. I don't mind sharing some of what has already been put out there. But, at the end of the day, everyone should do their own independent homework, and not take anything I say as gospel, or anyone else for that matter. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, but you don't need to accept everything 100% at face value.

And I am repeating myself, but unless you are working with real world class material to start with, IMO attempting to follow such a breeding program will for the most part, be a waste of time, and/or ...counter productive. If you produce junk, and a high percentage will be, and you breed from it in order to follow the chart, you will go backwards like the speed of light....and there is a fair chance you will anyway. So, be warned.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry, i am a mess at line breeding and inbreeding, but i am learning. 
BUT i do know you have to be able to spell it before you move on... Dave


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