# Baby pigeon crop is completely full tiny stones



## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

We found the bird in the parking lot on the ground and noted the nest was too high to return the bird.

The bird has pinfeathers. I've been feeding him a mash of Kaytee Cockatiel pellets with filtered water & applesauce warmed in a syringe. He has had three feedings of 1.5cc since 1pm today (it is now 10pm).

The thing I noticed when I decided to do a closer examination of the crop and noticed *the crop is completely full of hard stone like objects* (it feels like a bean bag). Full on both sides. The bird is pooping and started off with solid dark green poops. He just had a nice green and white one. 

I am concerned that this pigeon was eating tiny stones on the ground and didn't know when to stop. If this is the case, will his digestive system be able to handle the load? Should I continue to feed him? From what I've read babies need feedings every five hours at 10cc's per feeding. 

Any advice is appreciated. I don't want to exasperate the problem by offering food that will compound the problem is already has and at the same time I don't want to dehydrate him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post a pic of the baby to give us an idea of his age? Could it be seed in the crop from the parents feeding him? Has he had any more droppings since you posted? Can you also post pics of those?
It would depend on his age, how much and how often he would be fed.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

He has pooped a few times today. The poop was dark green initially and then he had a dropping that was dark green and white. 

His crop still feeds like a bean bag. Despite this should I go ahead and feed him 10cc's of mash? 

Attached are the photos you requested. I will try to get a better pic of his crop, however, my camera doesn't do well in indoor light.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

The pigeon has sour crop. Per treatment suggestions I gave him a bit of mineral oil and probiotics and had him in a cup upright all night so the crop would empty. I also gave him 1.5 drops of 10% baytril. 

Over night he pooped alot in his upright positon. There are still seeds in his crop from yesterday. He is vocalizing to be fed. I am feeding him and added mineral oil and probiotics again to his soaked chick feed & soaked Kaytee pellet combination. 

I will be giving him another 2 drops of baytril (.02cc's) and do have metronidazole here if anyone can help with dosing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

So are they seeds in the crop or something else? He is too young to have been eating stones or anything else in the parking lot. His parents must feed him at this age. At this age he needs to be kept very warm in order to be able to digest any food he gets, or it will just sit in his crop. Can you put him on a heating pad set on LOW, with a layer of towel over it, then the bird.
For now, a small bit of warmed baby apple sauce mixed with a bit of warm water may help the contents of the crop to pass. Don't give him any other food till the crop has emptied. Also, don't put food in until the crop empties. You need to let it empty, or almost so, between feedings. You don't want to put new food in with old, or you can cause crop problems. And he needs to be kept very warm after feeding. I wouldn't give any seeds. Just the baby bird formula, or the pellets made into a pudding like consistency. Rather on the thinner side until he is passing the food better.

How are you feeding him?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hand Feeding Babies With Cut Off Syringe (Directions and Pictures)

http://urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1aPHzKZaQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s5ZY...eat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyZV2Crqqd8

PIGEON AND DOVE RESCUE (Cynthia)

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> So are they seeds in the crop or something else? He is too young to have been eating stones or anything else in the parking lot. His parents must feed him at this age. At this age he needs to be kept very warm in order to be able to digest any food he gets, or it will just sit in his crop. Can you put him on a heating pad set on LOW, with a layer of towel over it, then the bird.
> For now, a small bit of warmed baby apple sauce mixed with a bit of warm water may help the contents of the crop to pass. Don't give him any other food till the crop has emptied. Also, don't put food in until the crop empties. You need to let it empty, or almost so, between feedings. You don't want to put new food in with old, or you can cause crop problems. And he needs to be kept very warm after feeding. I wouldn't give any seeds. Just the baby bird formula, or the pellets made into a pudding like consistency. Rather on the thinner side until he is passing the food better.
> 
> How are you feeding him?


My guess is his crop is full of seeds from his parents. I will pick up a heating pad today (but he is very warm as it is and it is warm in my house). I will also just give apple sauce warmed.

I've been feeding him a gruel of soaked and blended chick feed + cockatiel pellets with applesauce (mixed with filtered water). I put the food in a 3cc syringe and place syringe in warm water to warm the food up and then test the temperature on my wrist. I place the food at the entrance of his beak and he eats it. 

I am planning on putting him 'upright in a cup' again to help empty his crop since gravity will be assisting in this endeavor.

If the bird has sour crop, does he not need an anti fungal such as metronidazole as well as baytril? If so, what is the dosage. He weighs 185 grams. Below is a photo of his full crop taken last night and a photo of his elimination that took place overnight when the bird was upright in a cup. The droppings are next to a Canadian quarter (25 cents) for scale.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The warmth from a heating pad is what he needs. Not being put in a cup. Doesn't work that way. 
I asked why you are giving the Baytril?
Metro is not an anti fungal. It is what you use to treat canker.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

I read online to administer baytril birds with sour crop because bacteria builds up in the crop. I will stop this treatment. I also read crop massage can help. Can it?

He is on my lap in my hand asleep. When he goes back in his cage he will have the comfort of a heating pad with a folded t shirt on top of it. l will look for the link with the rec of baytril. 

I thought metronidazole was an anti yeast med (apparently yeast and/bacteria can cause the condition as well as a course of antibiotics!) and am glad to know better - so thanks!

Will this bird's crop ever empty of seeds?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

fallblossom said:


> I read online to administer baytril birds with sour crop because bacteria builds up in the crop. I will stop this treatment. I also read crop massage can help. Can it?
> 
> You really need to ask before medicating your bird for anything. Especially a baby. Baytril can cause sour crop, as it kills the good gut bacteria right along with the bad bacteria. Once the good bacteria are gone, the yeast can flourish. Which can cause sour crop. No one said your baby had sour crop. If it is emptying slowly, that is because he probably isn't being fed properly with the right temp food, and not put on a heating pad to keep him warm enough to digest and pass it. If Fed right and kept warm enough, he will probably be fine.
> 
> ...


Give him more warmed baby apple sauce with warm water. Baby apple sauce is better than regular as it contains less sugar, which yeast like.
Did you look at those links I left you. That is how you should be feeding him.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Give him more warmed baby apple sauce with warm water. Baby apple sauce is better than regular as it contains less sugar, which yeast like.
> Did you look at those links I left you. That is how you should be feeding him.


Keep in mind when we found the pigeon yesterday he had an extremely full crop that felt like a bean bag. I was not the person who fed him seeds. I have no clue if the seeds given to him were at the right temperature by his parents or how long he was on the ground for. 

If the bird doesn't have sour crop, what could be causing these seeds to still be sitting in his crop? He looked deformed yesterday and his crop has deflated alot but we can still feel 'some' seeds in there.

I don't have nystatin but do have ketoconazole. An avian website recommends 10-30mg/kg BID x 21 days. I have 200mg tablets which I can compound. Although keto is used for more severe problems...this is all I have. Do you think I should give this to him or wait and see if those stupid seeds digest? 

He is currently in his heated cage.

How often should I be feeding him warmed unsweetened applesauce (I have this already) thinned out with water? Every two hours? I don't want him to get dehydrated. 

You have been very helpful. Thank you so much. You may have heard this from other members multiple times and I hope you can appreciate how much appreciate your help. I am a seasoned pet rat owner and know nothing about pigeon ownership (well, I used to not know a thing!).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You said the crop went down flat. Don't worry if you feel a little bit of something in there.
Feed him and then wait for the crop to go back down before feeding again. Then feed him again. Don't give him any meds, as he probably doesn't need them and it will just mess with his system. If the crop goes down, and there are what look like enough droppings, then stop worrying. If the crop doesn't go down and there are no droppings, then give the warmed apple sauce with a bit of warm water mixed in, and see if it empties. You got the heating pad. You are doing good. Adding a bit of applesauce into his food a couple of times a day would be a good idea for now. Let us know how he is doing. Thanks.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

The bird is doing well. He is vocalizing. The first day he didn't vocalize and looked very uncomfortable and looked like he was going to loose condition. Right now he is beaking me for more food. 

His food consists of chick feed, filtered water, and unsweetened applesauce. Should a bird that weighs 185g receive 10cc's of food per feeding or more? I will be using the bottle feeding method when I get some rubber gloves. 

Questions about hand rearing:

1) When do I incorporate seeds into his mash?
1a) Do baby pigeons know when to stop eating?
2) What type of seeds do I offer? Song bird seeds initially or wild bird seed (some have sunflower seeds which are big for a tiny bird)?
3)How many weeks should we be using heat in his cage (until he is fully feathered or longer)?
4)When we release him will he instinctively know where to forage or is there some way a human can teach this (we have lots of wildflowers in seed right now)?
5)When his is a fledgling do we allow him to free roam to practice flying in a space where the windows are covered? Should be put a diaper on him (joke)?

Thank You


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

fallblossom said:


> The bird is doing well. He is vocalizing. The first day he didn't vocalize and looked very uncomfortable and looked like he was going to loose condition. Right now he is beaking me for more food.
> 
> His food consists of chick feed, filtered water, and unsweetened applesauce. Should a bird that weighs 185g receive 10cc's of food per feeding or more? I will be using the bottle feeding method when I get some rubber gloves.
> 
> ...


Maybe you could start now looking for rehabbers around that could help.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Maybe you could start now looking for rehabbers around that could help.


Great idea.

I did open the link you provided twice on how much to feed but am getting a '404 Error' so I still don't know how many times to feed per day or how many cc's per feeding. I use a Linux operating system which could be the problem when it comes to opening links.

Okay, I Googled the website and found the following below which is what I've been feeding, however, this bird keeps vocalizing. Is the vocalizing because he is hungry after a feeding. He is driving my teenaged son nuts. ETA: Now after his feeding he is being quiet (which means he is likely okay).

_10-11cc every 5 hours days 5-7, thickening the formula every time.__Ensure that no air bubbles form. Small soaked seeds can be mixed in to the formula by day 14._


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

HOW MUCH TO FEED

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

Cut the tip off a feeding syringe.
The syringe size varies with the age of the pigeon.
Start with a 5ml syringe.
Feed 1cc of very thin formula (eg Kaytee Exact) using 1 part formula to 5 parts water.
Feed 1cc every 2 hours at days 1 - 2
3cc every 3 hours for days 3-4
10-11cc every 5 hours days 5-7, thickening the formula every time.
By day 20 they should be taking 30-40 ml 3 times a day from a 60ml syringe.
Quantities are guidelines only. Crop sizes vary so feed carefully stopping to let the pigeon breathe and to check how [full the crop is.]

Cushiony crop
After feeding, the crop should feel soft and cushiony.
Do not overfeed or crop will stretch and sag forming a fold that traps food in it.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> HOW MUCH TO FEED
> 
> http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm
> 
> ...


I did get all that and_ posted some of it_ in my previous post. My concern is the pigeon is continually vocalizing. Low vocalizations at the moment. When it is feeding time he is louder. Why is he vocalizing? Is he calling out for his parents? Stressed? Other?

BTW _you_ have helped with this bird's survival. Thank you so very much.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't know why. Are you giving him enough to fill him up?


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Don't know why. Are you giving him enough to fill him up?


I feed 10 cc's every five hours and don't want to offer more because I am scared of overfeeding.

Below is a photo taken last night after a feed (why do my photos appear so large on this forum?). I took them to show the crop. 

Someone suggested I give the bird defrosted peas and corn (25 pieces 3x day). Do I place the pea at the front of the beak? I won't be feeding this volume since the bird required other nutrients such as vit. D that are in chick feed. 

How many do you suggest? I have peas, no corn. Most corn is GMO anyhow.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't feed him peas at this point. You are doing fine with the feedings and he is still young. In another couple of weeks, you can sprinkle some seed around him on a towel and he may be curious enough to start pecking at it and trying to pick it up.
Does he usually have his beak open like in the picture?
Also, you could start increasing the amount a little each day. The crop could be a little bit fuller.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't feed him peas at this point. You are doing fine with the feedings and he is still young. In another couple of weeks, you can sprinkle some seed around him on a towel and he may be curious enough to start pecking at it and trying to pick it up.
> Does he usually have his beak open like in the picture?
> Also, you could start increasing the amount a little each day. The crop could be a little bit fuller.


The bird's beak is open because he was vocalizing (hee hee). He is vocalizing right now while on my lap. In his cage he will quiet down, but he is beaking my arm like crazy at this very moment and vocalizing and when he hears my voice he will start vocalizing. 

I just gave him 6cc's of mash and fed him peas (per the dumb advice given to me). Does his crop look full enough to you? Why are my photos 'huge' on this forum?

I think I will give him another 3cc's of mash right now. Gah!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why are you feeding the peas? Are you having a hard time with the mash? He is still young to be doing peas. And if the other stuff has the vit and D3 then why not just stick with that? Usually peas are suggested if someone has a hard time feeding, as they are easier. That is better for a bird who is closer to weaning age, as he will soon be on seed. Right now something with the vitamins and such added would be better for him. And corn wouldn't be good as it is harder to digest.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

I am not having issues with the the mash. Someone I messaged regarding my pigeon woes in the beginning stages of his care told me the following, "Feed the pigeon 25 pieces of corn and peas three times per day" after his stuffed-to-the- max crop had emptied. I thought the added peas _might_ be a good idea for fiber but questioned the advice about not including a mash that is balanced nutrition. I know enough not to do this.

The pigeon is doing well and takes his food and beaks me like crazy during feeding while extending his neck and little chicken wings like a little comical character. His vocalizations are lovely. 

Don't worry, I won't feed peas again. Folks on the net have to be careful where they get their advice from. Very careful. 

I see people bottle feeding their pigeons dry parrot pellets and wonder about this too. They said the bird will naturally be thirsty afterwards and learn how to drink water. At this stage I will not be trying this method out. 

I own a cockatiel and he eats a mix of seeds and cockatiel pellets (they say the pellets help with the bird not getting kidney disease). Does this hold true for adult pigeons? Should they too be fed pellets alongside seeds?


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Ah he's so adorable. I used to add grain now and then to the formula but I'd grind them a little first and not give them whole, smaller seeds are fine whole but the bigger ones can be crushed in a bag with a hammer if you don't have a grinder. You don't have to add seed as the formula has everything he needs but if you want to start him on the road of the feeling of grain when eating you can add a little seed too. I've hand raised all six of my birds and I can tell you they never stop vocalising when they are lone chicks, the pair that I raised together were far more quiet and only vocalised when I actually went to feed them but the lone chicks - sheesh! I found putting a small teddy bear or other cuddly toy helped a little and they do actually cuddle up to it but they're still vocal as soon as they see any movement outside. 
I've never used pellets just pigeon mix ground a little.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't worry about his needing fiber, as they require very little. Pigeons are grain eaters by nature, so feeding them grain does not put them at risk for kidney disease. Different birds have different needs. He shouldn't be eating seeds or other dry foods until a bit older, at which time you can teach him how to drink, by dipping the beak, in water, but not over the nostrils. They usually learn by watching the others.


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## fallblossom (Aug 23, 2017)

My pigeon is doing well. His crop empties normally and his droppings look good. He enjoys sitting on my lap. 

He does cry while on my lap and I am not sure why even after 12cc's of food. He has more feathers now but is bald under his wings, on top of his back, inner legs and breastbone. Does he still require a heating pad under his cage?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad the cutie is doing well!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For one thing you probably aren't feeding enough. He's what, about 2 weeks or so now? The formula should be getting a bit thicker and you need to increase what he gets.
If you don't increase the amount he gets as he grows, then he will become stunted and not be able to grow. Those feathers should be filling in in another week. If the feathers around the face don't come in, in that time you can post another pic of him.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

At his age I would be offering two 15ml syringes of food, a little thicker than cheese sauce consistency. You can add a few small seeds if you want to get him used to the feel of them, just half teaspoon in each lot of feed you make up. Keep an eye on his crop when you up the feed quantity because it shouldn't be so big it looks like bursting, lol and he will take everything you offer, so you want a nice full crop that still feels a little 'squishy'. Give him the choice of the heat mat and he'll move off of it when he feels he doesn't need it. I gave mine a small cuddly toy like a teddy bear and you'd be surprised how they snuggle into it, mine slept on Teddys for a while but abandoned them the more feathers they got. 
He's adorable.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

At this age I would still be feeding 3 times a day. Start with the 15 mls and as he grows increase it. As Freda has said, keep checking the crop.


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