# Litter?



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

My floor is plywood, painted with exterior house paint. Stays fairly clean except just under the perches. Saw some had wood trim holding in pellets, litter, etc... 

What is best to use on the floor under the perches for easy clean up? I put a pan of wood shavings, duh, it was so light that when the wings flap, the shavings go everywhere! Concept worked well tho, droppings do go in the pan. So, back to the think tank... 

I read some use kitty litter. Is this standard, generic cat litter? Don't the birds peck at the litter? Isn't that harmful if ingested?

What are the pellets? I asked one member and got no reply.

Thanks in advance!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't really use a floor litter, but I use a nice floor dressing that I put on the floor after it is scraped and swept up. It really keeps it smelling clean and disinfects and dries it out, also.

My plywood floor is not painted, however.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

Trees Gray, could you be more specific to what you mean by "floor dressing" (sorry, new to being owned by Pigeons)


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

My neighbor has unfinished wood loft floors and uses crushed corn cob for litter. It looks a lot like pellets. It's supposed to help dispel dampness, if I understand correctly... 

I've been advised that it is a Very Bad Idea to use cat litter on the floor of a coop because it will do the pigeons a mischief if/when they eat it.

(please correct me if I have posted in error...)


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

rfboyer said:


> My neighbor has unfinished wood loft floors and uses crushed corn cob for litter. It looks a lot like pellets. It's supposed to help dispel dampness, if I understand correctly...
> 
> I've been advised that it is a Very Bad Idea to use cat litter on the floor of a coop because *it will do the pigeons a mischief if/when they eat it*.
> 
> (please correct me if I have posted in error...)


this is what I was worried about. Had a dog years ago who snacked out of the litter box and ended up with poisoning from the clay. Corn cob, maybe that is what I've been thinking of and people refer to it as litter? Don't the birds try to eat this also?


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Try all-natural wood pellets for pellet stoves. You could rake it around everyday and do a deep litter type set-up then clean it up at the end of the week, or after a couple of weeks.


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## rfboyer (Jun 18, 2009)

braden said:


> Corn cob, maybe that is what I've been thinking of and people refer to it as litter? Don't the birds try to eat this also?


I don't think they eat much, if any of the corn cob, and I think it would only give them a few carbs (maybe) and some extra "dietary fiber"  

"Litter" is any stuff you use as floor covering -- shredded paper, corn cob, sawdust, chips, hay/straw, sand...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well......you wouldn't want to use anything that would attract them to eat it. Even if the litter itself were not bad for them, they shouldn't be eating anything with poop on it. I would think that the corn cob would be good for this. The wood chips work well if it is in a place where the wing flapping doesn't scatter it too much. Maybe a bit of sand?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks! 

Like the wood pellet type idea, that way the whole lot can head to the compost pile on cleaning day.

I really didn't think it was actual cat litter, but figured I would ask, it's the only way to learn. Really starting to enjoy the pigeon idea, got 3 more on their way and got my first suppliy order today. Very exciting!!!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Congratulations, braden! Regarding cleaning up under the perches, you can get loft dressing (powder) from most pigeon supply places. A light sprinkle of that would keep the poops drier and easier to scrape up, with no added bulk of the litter to dispose of. I tried several different litter options (shavings, wood pellets) but ended up with plain floor, scraped regularly.  I like being able to easily see if any of the birds are starting to have a problem - odd poops frequently being one of the first signs. Good luck!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TerriB said:


> Congratulations, braden! Regarding cleaning up under the perches, you can get loft dressing (powder) from most pigeon supply places. A light sprinkle of that would keep the poops drier and easier to scrape up, with no added bulk of the litter to dispose of. I tried several different litter options (shavings, wood pellets) but ended up with plain floor, scraped regularly. I like being able to easily see if any of the birds are starting to have a problem - odd poops frequently being one of the first signs. Good luck!


I use Belgium white from foys. I really like it. As TerriB mentioned, it does keep it nice and dry. Smells nice and clean, and the poops do scrape up easier.


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## kingsley hannah (Jan 9, 2008)

i like the idea of the belgum whit however nobody stocks it in nz  so i too have experimented with diferent floorings and settled on a bare floor scraped once per week, i add dry sawdust under the purches and this seems to work well


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I use stall dry for horse stalls, very safe, and then some pine shavings for horse stalls (dust free)under the perches. using these makes scraping easier and dries the poops up quicker, esp on those humid rainy days.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> I use Belgium white from foys. I really like it. As TerriB mentioned, it does keep it nice and dry. Smells nice and clean, and the poops do scrape up easier.


That is the one I use!


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## lance_harmon (Oct 18, 2008)

*Sand*

Sand is the best litter. I dont use it but that is what i have read.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

lance_harmon said:


> Sand is the best litter. I dont use it but that is what i have read.


some love it others hated it, I for one would not like sifting though it like a big litter box...too much trouble, and the birds would pick at it and it would have poop mixed in, it can get moist in humid weather too. IMO a bare floor scraped daily is good, using the pineshavings and stall dry is just for the poop to dry out better for easier scraping, the loft dressing is like a powder and use to disenfect and dry out wet spots from the droppings after the loft has been cleaned.


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## Deluhathol (Jan 26, 2009)

lance_harmon said:


> Sand is the best litter. I dont use it but that is what i have read.


Sand is nice and really easy to sift clean. The only issue with it is that sand retains moisture extremely well. so if you manage to spring a leak in your loft durring the rainy seasons the amount of moisture that gets retained could cause problems for you and your birds.


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

I use no litter and just scrape twice a day then sprinkle a little Belgian white under the perches after I hand feed the birds. My loft sections are small so It's no big deal for me to clean twice daily. 
I used to use the wood pellets but I prefer a clean wood floor these days.
I also keep a pair of shoes in the loft that I slip on after entering the loft so I do not walk into a loft section with wet or muddy shoes on my feet. 
Tom


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## SODOVESFORLOVE (Sep 21, 2007)

I have used corn cobb bedding for years and seems to be fine in the loft.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

windyflat said:


> ...I also keep a pair of shoes in the loft that I slip on after entering the loft so I do not walk into a loft section with wet or muddy shoes on my feet.
> Tom


Excellent point! Having loft shoes helps keep poop and feathers from your house. It also helps protect your birds from contamination that your street shoes might have picked up.


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## dogging_99 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Loft Floor Dressing*

This is what I've settled on and it works well.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=972&pictureid=11482

75% Sand, 25% Sweet PDZ, 2% Diatomaceous earth.
Cleans easy, not dusty, stays put, Birds can eat it. smells good in loft.
dries the droppings up quickly.


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## Jazzman (Dec 15, 2007)

kingsley hannah said:


> i like the idea of the belgum whit however nobody stocks it in nz  so i too have experimented with diferent floorings and settled on a bare floor scraped once per week, i add dry sawdust under the purches and this seems to work well


Belgium white from Foy's is a great product. Really all it is though is chalk, like they use to stripe athletic fields. I've been meaning to ask at the feed mill if they have or can get chalk. The price comparison between the two might be interesting.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

dogging_99 said:


> This is what I've settled on and it works well.
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=972&pictureid=11482
> 
> 75% Sand, 25% Sweet PDZ, 5% Diatomaceous earth.
> ...


*What is SWEET PDZ?*GEORGE


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## dogging_99 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Clinoptilolite*

I Google
its Clinoptilolite
http://www.galleries.com/minerals/SILICATE/clinopti/clinopti.htm
http://www.sweetpdz.com/other-uses.html#dogcats


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

george simon said:


> *What is SWEET PDZ?*GEORGE


What is Sweet PDZ?

Zeolites were formed from volcanic activity millions of years ago, and it should be stressed, that all zeolites have unique characteristics and abilities. The clinoptilolite (Clino) that comprises Sweet PDZ is one of the very best at ammonia absorption and odor neutralization.

Classic/Powder: This is the original Sweet PDZ product that was introduced in 1983. The key advantage of this small particle size is the fact that a person can more thoroughly and comprehensively cover the wet spot or problem area. This results in a faster acting performance of absorbing and adsorbing the ammonia and odor. Many Sweet PDZ users translate this faster performance to better performance, and will swear that the Sweet PDZ Classic/Powder outperforms Granular. Who are we to argue with our customers? An additional benefit to some users, is the fact that the Powder usually has a lower retail price. As much as $1.00 less per bag versus Granular Sweet PDZ.

Granular: We introduced Granular Sweet PDZ as a result of some customers requesting a larger granule size. Many of these customers were using stall mats in their stalls, and they liked how the Granular product performed with their mats. Additionally, many customers liked the less dusty effect the Granular product offered when they applied it in their stalls. Some folks find that it flows more easily out of a cup or scoop when applying it, thus allowing for more efficient use of Sweet PDZ.

Granular Sweet PDZ tends to be the preferred product for application in pet habitats, such as cat boxes, small animal habitats, bird cages and dog runs.


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

I use a mixture...

Straw and wood chips....just enough to cover their flloor. I then, have pine needles, straw and bigger sized chips for their nesting boxes.

-Hilly


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

A really good reason not to use litter is that litter makes it, it impossible to monitor the poop.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> A really good reason not to use litter is that litter makes it, it impossible to monitor the poop.


yes your right, that is if someone is using the deep litter method, I sprinkle just enough to help with the scraping, believe me they leave plenty untouched by the litter for me to see...lol...


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## bluebirdsnfur (Jan 20, 2009)

I use the deep litter method sprinkled with DE. I do however pick up poo laying on top every couple days. Their is always enough fresh poo on perches and ledges for my viewing pleasure . About once a week I add more DE to the shavings and stir it all up.

I have sand and paver base mix in the outside aviary and put a bale of straw out there for my guys to play on. Leave the straw baled.


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## Sumit.Ghosh (Feb 16, 2006)

*Summing up the discussion:*

Hi,

I have a concrete floor which needs to be cleaned everyday. So I was going over the thread to look into viable options. However anything we use there is a problem the area around the water tub always remains wet. Any solution to that?

Here are the probable options that we might use.
Natural:
1. Sand
2. wood pellets
3. sawdust
4. shredded paper
5. corn cob 
6. wood chips, 
7. hay/straw

Mixtures:
1. floor dressing/loft dressing (powder) for using on a bare floor after sweeping floor
2. Belgium white from foys
3. horse stalls (dust free)
4. 75% Sand, 25% Sweet PDZ{http://www.galleries.com/minerals/SILICATE/clinopti/clinopti.htm}, 5% Diatomaceous earth


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

quote..... "I have a concrete floor which needs to be cleaned everyday. So I was going over the thread to look into viable options. However anything we use there is a problem the area around the water tub always remains wet. Any solution to that?" 



yes there is, do not keep water in the loft area, but in the aviary on a wire floor. if you have a good fount there should not be a "always" wet problem, but just maybe a few drops here and there, usually founts are lifted up off the floor so dust and litter will not get in it. most put them in the aviary in case of spills or leakage. having a concrete floor is the last choice for a pigeon loft I would choose, it absorbs moisture and stays cold and clammy. If That is all I had I would put shavings down with pdz, perhaps corn cob bedding about 5 inches to get them off that concrete.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What do you use for a waterer? Is it something they can splash in? It shouldn't be. A regular pigeon waterer will ge a little wet under it though, and for that problem, put a plastic place mat under it. Easy to wipe off. If you use litter or something like that on the floor, Put the waterer on a low wooden box, or maybe a table, with a Plastic place mat under it.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2009)

ok, back to me...LOL

I decided to go with nothing on the floor. I did however put a pan under the perch area. Got a long shallow (36' x 18" x 7" deep) plastic Rubbermade type storage box, lid removed, and filled it 2" with wood stove pellets (100% all natural, no chemicals, etc...) Works great for catching the poo. Started with a boot mat but it was too shallow and htey scattered the pellets everywhere. Now it stays in the box. I also chip the poo out of the nest boxes every morning, I say "chip" because it is cold here and the poo is frozen! For the floor, it picks up quite easily with a metal spatula, the moister/ fresher ones I sprinkle a few pieces of pine shavings on then scoop them up. I only have 4 birds now, so cleanup isn't too bad. I clean it up in the morning, mid day, then again before their bedtime. Figured if I do it this way, I won't get overloaded with hours of cleaning.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

braden? who is that...lol... just kiddin

using a spatula, that is the first time I have heard that....lol.. many uses for that tool!

I use a paint scraper. sounds like you have things worked out. I love it when people get inventive with pigoen keeping!


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I have a deep layer of sand under the flooring with !/2 cement pavers and half w/ shavings. I'll try the dsg for horse stalls, Spirit wings. Easier to come by!
I've read that pigeons sometimes ingest the sand but no problem with mine that I can see.


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## Sumit.Ghosh (Feb 16, 2006)

Hi,

We have a bowl 10 inch in diameter and 3 inch depth. In it big birds like blowers can take bath comfortably. Once a bird jumps into it the entire water is dirty with the surroundings being wet.Yes I am planning for a waterer where in the water will be flushed out every hour or may be it pour in water whenever there is a bird to drink water. Or Both. However I dont have any spares or parts with which I can do the same. For that I have another thread to get some idea.


The another major prolem is cleaning the floor. We use a paint scruber to scrub the floor. How do you use wood scraps on the floor - Under a wire net? how often do you clean it? Replace it entirely or just clean it? I need to do something which needs minimum cleaning effort as I will not be doing it. The cleaning is done by my dad as I am staying 2000km far from home. I want to reduce the burden on him. I'll be going home this Christmus for 2 weeks. Intend to put up a good setup.


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## Sumit.Ghosh (Feb 16, 2006)

Also how do you use the sand? Replace or clean? Even if they eat the pebbles it is good aid for their digestion.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

eating sand that has had fecal matter in it is not good.......also sand attracts moisture, which is not good either....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sumit.Ghosh said:


> Hi,
> 
> We have a bowl 10 inch in diameter and 3 inch depth. In it big birds like blowers can take bath comfortably. Once a bird jumps into it the entire water is dirty with the surroundings being wet.Yes I am planning for a waterer where in the water will be flushed out every hour or may be it pour in water whenever there is a bird to drink water. Or Both. However I dont have any spares or parts with which I can do the same. For that I have another thread to get some idea.
> 
> ...


Do you have waterers for them to drink from? I mean, besides the large bowl of water?


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## Sumit.Ghosh (Feb 16, 2006)

No I don't have any separate arrangement as of now.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You need waterers that they can not soil. You can buy or make them very cheaply. And putting the bath water in the aviary like was mentioned is a good idea. The bath water should also be put down, let them bath, then picked up. Wet cement is VERY bad for the birds and breeds bacteria and mold. And drinking dirty water that they have soiled will eventually cause sickness to spread. Get some, or make some inexpensive waterers to drink from, and don't leave the bath water out all day. 

Does your loft have an aviary? This gives your birds a way to get fresh air and sunshine, which is very important, It also solves the problem of the wet cement.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

braden said:


> ok, back to me...LOL
> 
> I decided to go with nothing on the floor. I did however put a pan under the perch area. Got a long shallow (36' x 18" x 7" deep) plastic Rubbermade type storage box, lid removed, and filled it 2" with wood stove pellets (100% all natural, no chemicals, etc...) Works great for catching the poo. Started with a boot mat but it was too shallow and htey scattered the pellets everywhere. Now it stays in the box. I also chip the poo out of the nest boxes every morning, I say "chip" because it is cold here and the poo is frozen! For the floor, it picks up quite easily with a metal spatula, the moister/ fresher ones I sprinkle a few pieces of pine shavings on then scoop them up. I only have 4 birds now, so cleanup isn't too bad. I clean it up in the morning, mid day, then again before their bedtime. Figured if I do it this way, I won't get overloaded with hours of cleaning.


Good way to do it, I put wood shavings under the perches, but they don't get scattered when they fly, because of the way the perches are situated. Never thought of using a spatula, but whatever works. I use scrapers of different widths. Sounds like you have it pretty much covered. I also scrape 2 or 3 times a day. LOL.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

SumitGosh, I don't know what is available in India, but I love the idea of the pvc pipe with end caps and a long narrow opening I've seen on here. But a plastic milk jug would be a good temporary solution. 
Everyone is talking about how sand retains moisture. My property must have been a river bed at one time because sand is about all I have and the drainage is great! Hard to grow some things in sand but I don't get much standing water.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

doveone52 said:


> SumitGosh, I don't know what is available in India, but I love the idea of the pvc pipe with end caps and a long narrow opening I've seen on here. But a plastic milk jug would be a good temporary solution.
> Everyone is talking about how sand retains moisture. My property must have been a river bed at one time because sand is about all I have and the drainage is great! Hard to grow some things in sand but I don't get much standing water.


You may not get standing water outside, as water will drain through sand quickly, you're right about that. But when it is in a loft, with cement under it, it stays damp. I just holds the dampness in the cement, which would never dry out.


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## Sumit.Ghosh (Feb 16, 2006)

*Sand over wood Shavings*

If we use Sand over wood Shavings the sand will let the water through and it will be absorbed by wood or paper. Hows that as a flooring?


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Interesting. Had not thought of that, Sumit.Ghosh!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sumit.Ghosh said:


> If we use Sand over wood Shavings the sand will let the water through and it will be absorbed by wood or paper. Hows that as a flooring?


Lousy. The wood would remain damp. Very bad. How is that better then the sand being over the cement floor, and the cement remaining wet?


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

OK. Point talen.


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## mtripOH (Jan 4, 2010)

Hello. We are just starting out. We are making a loft in corner or our garage which has a concrete floor. I thought giving up part of the garage (which does not house cars) would be a fine place to start but now after reading this thread I am concerned about to floor. Is having a concrete floor totally out of the question? Is there anything we can do to the concrete floor to make it more hospitable?


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## WOODRUFF LOFT (Nov 18, 2009)

I have tried alot of things and the best thing i've found so far is the "stall dry" purchased from tractor supply. In watching some cd's, alot of breeders use straw in the loft for their young birds and after they are a few weeks old they remove the straw and clean daily. Some folk use what is called the dry litter system, the areas under the perches are cleaned often but the floor is left with one to two inches of dry litter. Some of the old timers think this system might even keep the birds healthier. In my racing loft I have wooden (homemade) grates that come out past the perchs so the dropings that build up are not in contact with the birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is there no way you could make a wooden floor for the loft? Much better than concrete if you can do that.


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## windmill Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

I have gone from shavings to sand. It has done real well for me. And I would recogmend it. Jim


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's a great idea. That's what I had in mind.


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## mtripOH (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you much for your replies. I will talk to hubby about putting in a wood floor. I look forward to the day when we can build a loft from the floor up and not have to improvise with something we already have. I really thought it would not be so tough building in the garage but even before having any pigeons in hand I see it is a lot more than I have anticipated. I will not let this deter us in getting our family hobby off the ground. Thanks again.


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## Jazzman (Dec 15, 2007)

mtripOH said:


> Thank you much for your replies. I will talk to hubby about putting in a wood floor. I look forward to the day when we can build a loft from the floor up and not have to improvise with something we already have. I really thought it would not be so tough building in the garage but even before having any pigeons in hand I see it is a lot more than I have anticipated. I will not let this deter us in getting our family hobby off the ground. Thanks again.


I did the garage thing much like you descibed, and one thing I'd like to add is enclose the loft with a solid ceiling. I thought using poultry wire would ventilate the loft real well, and it did, not only was the loft over ventilated, but the pigeon dust was just everywhere. I wound up putting a blue tarp over 95% of the poultry wire, and the birds were happier, healthier, and the wifes car was cleaner. As for a floor, I put down a sheet of 1/8" luan, scrape daily, and sweep the floor with Belgium white (chalk). Looks clean, stays dry, and keeps odors down. Just my two cents. Good luck!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jazzman said:


> I did the garage thing much like you descibed, and one thing I'd like to add is enclose the loft with a solid ceiling. I thought using poultry wire would ventilate the loft real well, and it did, not only was the loft over ventilated, but the pigeon dust was just everywhere. I wound up putting a blue tarp over 95% of the poultry wire, and the birds were happier, healthier, and the wifes car was cleaner. As for a floor, I put down a sheet of 1/8" luan, scrape daily, and sweep the floor with Belgium white (chalk). Looks clean, stays dry, and keeps odors down. Just my two cents. Good luck!


Should be hardware cloth rather than poultry wire. Rodents can get in through poultry wire.


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## dogging_99 (Apr 21, 2009)

mtripOH said:


> Thank you much for your replies. I will talk to hubby about putting in a wood floor. I look forward to the day when we can build a loft from the floor up and not have to improvise with something we already have. I really thought it would not be so tough building in the garage but even before having any pigeons in hand I see it is a lot more than I have anticipated. I will not let this deter us in getting our family hobby off the ground. Thanks again.


I don't see a problem with loft in a garage I have one in my shop using the south side 3x3 window a slider converted to a sputnik and partitioned off a 8x8 area inside a heated shop. Vented with a interior exterior wall fan and interior vents to circulate worm air in the winter. and cool air in summer. I have painted the concrete with polyurethane paint not epoxy a plastic coat. doesn't hold moisture cleans easy and use sand under perches 1" thick a mixture of 75% sand 25% PDZ, 2% DE. I sift the sand daily with a cat litter scoop lined with 1/8" x 1/8" screen, works great takes 10 minuets to clean the loft. Pic's in my album.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=972


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Your loft is really nice. And it does look easy to take care of. Where do you buy that floor paint, and how does it hold up to scraping? You did a great job!


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## dogging_99 (Apr 21, 2009)

I bought the coloured polyurethane floor paint at True Value Hardware Store. Scrapping lightly with a pole taped on a 10" sheet rock trowel is all that is needed as the dropings will not stick to the plastic coat. If you tried you could chip the paint with the trowel on edge!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dogging_99 said:


> I bought the coloured polyurethane floor paint at True Value Hardware Store. Scrapping lightly with a pole taped on a 10" sheet rock trowel is all that is needed as the dropings will not stick to the plastic coat. If you tried you could chip the paint with the trowel on edge!


Thanks. Great idea! Your loft is nice. And the way you have set it up is pretty smart.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

dogging_99 said:


> I don't see a problem with loft in a garage I have one in my shop using the south side 3x3 window a slider converted to a sputnik and partitioned off a 8x8 area inside a heated shop....http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=972


What a well-designed set up you have! I really like how the top nest box access doors flip to provide perching even with the door closed. You have obviously put a lot of time and thought into your loft.


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