# Young bird racers



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

So should I have put my birds together already? I don't usually put my birds together till the end of February that gets them past the very cold weather.
Dave


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

Dave I think it going to depend on you and how many rounds you want to raise 
Next year I am waiting till mid end of February cause I hate switching out all the frozen waters..


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

I start breeding my birds in February. due to the cold weather seems to work out fine for me


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

You can always put the pairs together now and just leave the lights off . When you want to start your breeders ,up the hours of light.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

A lot of guys put them together mid-February and do well.


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## GaryWCo (Apr 19, 2011)

I put mine together at Thanksgiving. I had my first hatch on Christmas day. I have six that have hatched and 2 eggs to go. I'm thinking one may be infertile.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Most guys around where I live put there birds together mid-February or at the end of February and manage to get 2-3 rounds of babies.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

You've been at this a long time Dave so I'm sure you've tried it both ways. I put mine together 12-12-12. Thought that might be lucky? I was going to wait as its kind of a pain to be so early in the cold but my best birds this year were the early ones. I'll put my Widowers together on Valentines day.....they say that's tradition and it seems to work out about right.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have tried it both ways, but I never tried to win a young bird race. So I thought I would see what the experts say.
Dave


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

The guy in our club that wins 80% of the races has 35 birds ready to band on Jan 1. His birds are simply older than the rest of ours. Well, that and he has good birds and is a good handler and a good loft position.


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

It sounds like he has you beat before you even enter the race 
Maybe the handler part is the key, a good solid system. I bet his second round win as well...........




Kastle Loft said:


> Well, that and he has good birds and is a good handler and a good loft position.


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## scott.peets (Dec 1, 2012)

Like the example Kastle gave the birds are older and more mature then you will have more tools to motivate them home. Everyone has their system but the spring mating is way "old school". Mating early may make you either more competitive or ahead of the game if people around you are mating late. (assuming everything else is in line) Good luck


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

That's right. Everyone else in our club uses that Valentines date to pair. When we basket young birds in the fall - the guy who pairs in December - well, his birds are looking like old birds and have a full or almost full wing. Even his second round is older than most others racing in our club. 

Last year, after band distribution on jan 2, as we were leaving the club he leaned in my ear and said "don't you listen to those guys telling you to wait till February to pair."

So who am I going to,listen to? The guy who wins, that's who.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

With early breeding comes the necessity to train early and all that goes with it. In my situation if I have young birds that are learning to route in winter the potential for losses to hawks is very high. The Goshawks have staked a claim on my lofts. If it were legal to kill them, I would do so gladly. As it is, I can't release my birds in winter unless I stay out to scare the hawks off.
The real advantage in early young birds is that they can be through the molt and motivated by nest position or widowhood if managed properly. That is likely the reason that the guy who breeds early rounds is so dominant. It is like many elements of this sport. Those that work harder to care for and manage their birds get better than average performance results as a reward in most cases.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I have not tryed it yet but if you darken your young birds from march to may and only give them 10 hours of day light they will start to molt right away when you get them back to full light, by August they all should be through a full body and wing molt.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I guess I better get my pairs together now, the guy to beat in my club already has 50 young birds.
Dave


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Crazy Pete said:


> Well I guess I better get my pairs together now, the guy to beat in my club already has 50 young birds.
> Dave


Does he already have his 2013 bands?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Yes the band got here yesterday and we can go get them first thing Tuesday if we have birds ready. Our race secretary wont hand them out till the first.
Dave


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im not an expert, but if you did get them together you could let them have a first round of eggs..then take all the eggs out and put in some fakes...then around end of january pull all the eggs at the same time.. then you will have youre pairs all lay very close for you're first round of youngins, then you would have a nice group to train all together.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

The issue that always comes to my mind is, birds in one loft races aren't mature birds that can be flown on widowhood. Usually the birds are shipped out to the one loft race between 30-35 days old (after being weaned). They are then trained and raced but all of this or the majority of all the flying, is done before the bird truly matures. 

My concern is, if you race young birds locally, and you breed early and have more mature birds by the time the races come, and you win races. How can you truly be sure the ybs your sending to a one loft race are any good? Their siblings have done well when they were flown as mature young birds on widowhood, but in the one loft race the young birds are flown to the perch a majority of the time? Wouldn't the results be different?


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

Not sure I understand your concern. We all have birds who either out perform or under perform their siblings or their parents for a world of reasons. 
Obviously birds sent to a one loft race are all treated basically the same....most allow about a three month window in excepting birds which offers you the choice of sending early or later babies if you think that will give you an edge.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

One of th best YB flyers that flew YB`s here,didn`t have ANY hatch out untill around May 1st....On Sept 21st or so,a few years ago,he took the top 6 spots in a Auction race winning ALL the money...It`s MORE about the QUALITY of your pigeons,then it is how old they are....Alamo


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

Alamo, has a good point just because the birds are older doesn't guarantee a win! there's more to it then just the age of the bird, However I do agree it might have it's advantage.but what it all comes down too, is well trained birds and good health lets not put aside all the time and effort we fanciers put into preparing the birds for the races that also plays a big role in it it's a team effort!


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## scott.peets (Dec 1, 2012)

Nothing is ever a guarantee!! Every system has its ups and downs. So much can affect the birds from feed, weather, ventilation, health, age, motivation, etc etc... I would definitely put money down that most competitive fanciers now-a-days breed in Nov/Dec. There are exceptions Im sure but its all relative to where you are and who you are flying against. 

My experience, I was 19 in my first year flying (11 years ago) and was told I had to breed early and around thanksgiving was the best time to be competitive. I was first in the second club race and then got 13 with that same hen in a concourse race. I am from Ma with plenty of great flyers.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

The big guys breed early so they can put their birds on the dark or the light system.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Many guys in my club breed early. They're the same guys that have been on top of the races week after week. There is an advantage, physically maturity-wise. The older birds are stronger. Darkening not only makes them molt their body feathers, but it fast forwards their growth. Also the light system also drops their flights so come race season, the birds [on systems] are almost yearlings. 

These same guys who've won the young bird races are also the same guys who order 100 bands. They must risk the chances of losing a large number of birds, all the expense of winning on race day. 

Revolution Lofts also brings up a good point; that is, how much validity is there in a young bird of a sibling that is flown a system going to perform at OLRs? Young birds at OLRs are flown to the perch. 

Having said that, there are some OLRs that specialize in systems too. All young birds are put on a system; light/dark, or both. Guys [and girls] who use the systems would suspect to investigate these OLRs and send birds there because the implemented systems are similar. 

The bottom line is, flying young girls on systems versus natural is akin to a six graders dominating third graders in dodgeball.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks for agreeing with the concern I had. 

My situation is that I can only fly either young birds or OBs. As of right now, the young bird races are the only thing I'm interested in due to my time restriction.

I want to fly my young birds in the local races in a manner that is identical to that of one loft races ( flying to the perch ). Although it is true that some one loft races might use the light or dark system, it is certain that none fly the young birds on widowhood. That would be so overly time consuming trying to fly at least 300 birds on widowhood. A lot of moving around of birds which would take forever in my mind. 

So this brings up the question for one loft races. When the birds are not given any special treatment (being allowed to mature and fly on widowhood), can your birds still perform? Now locally, you might be winning every single race. But that might be because you fly your young birds on widowhood while everyone else flys to the perch. So if you win races locally while having the widowhood edge, and you send babies off to a one loft race from a pair whose young birds have flown well locally for you, how much confidence should one have in those babies? Now it is true that the babies you send whose siblings performed well on widowhood in local yb races will be babies that are of high quality, but overtime a fancier might develop a strain of birds that only fly well as young birds when they are flown as *WIDOWERS*. 

The strain you develop over time (I'm talking 10-15 years) might become accustomed to only doing well when they are flown on the widowhood system. So the question that comes to mind is, do you want to win the local races just for the pride of winning/getting your name out there or do you want to win one loft races and win money.


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

OLR races are a whole different program. Everything is close to being equal as possible
for each pigeon..Or should be...The key is when the bird comes into form and how long it stays in form..Is your pigeon flying on a full wing against others who's flights or missing..This is assuming they make it this far in the program..........
I have several friends that fly only OLR and as far how old they want the pigeon at race day is different for all of them...Fling in a club there is many advantages a good flier has in his playbook. Loft position,Age of pigeon, system's he uses, wing manipulation other tricks that or used and drugs as well.........Having a good pair that produces good youngsters for you and fly well for you may not do well with another club member...
To test your pairs before you ship to a one loft send a few babies to another flier in your club and see how they work out for him..........


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

If you want to fly OLR style during you racing season, them go for it..Set the dates you will except your own young, lock them down for a few months while the others babies get old enough to transfer over as well..Then start your training on the natural system to the perch, dont look at there wings when you send them to races load them all...I think you will be sad with your losses and you probably loose a big amount during the season..........


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I think maybe you have the mistaken notion that many fly their early YBs as "Widows". While I'm aware of a few who do I think the number is very small. I think Triple7 made some very good points that might address your concerns. If you want to race your birds with no concern for winning, then just enjoy seeing them fly around home.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

I don't believe that using widowhood and/or light or dark system for young birds is going to materially impact long term genetic selection to produce birds that only fly well on that system.
These systems potentially, and in most cases in fact, result in superior performance of the birds as relates to their potential genetically and athletically. The birds genetics are in no way changed. It might be possible for one to mistakenly conclude that the genetic package in his flock is superior to others that do not use the same management practices? A way to prove or disprove that would be to exchange young birds with someone in an effort to determine if there is a measurable difference in varying management systems?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Living in a colder environment, I will probably have to use the light system in order to be competitive locally. 

I won't be flying my young birds on widowhood though. Just going to fly them back to the perch. 

Starting 2014 (not this year) I am going to breed 3 rounds of babies from each pair. The entire 1st round will be sent to other fanciers to train and fly. I'm going to try to send them to area's where the young birds happen sooner, not later like the ones here in Canada. That way the 1st round isn't allowed to mature a whole lot before the races begin. The 2nd and 3rd round I plan to train and race myself because they won't be that old during the races in my area. 

Most of the time, in OLR's the birds are between 6-8 months old. So that is the age I want all of my young birds to be tested at.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

ejb3810 said:


> I don't believe that using widowhood and/or light or dark system for young birds is going to materially impact long term genetic selection to produce birds that only fly well on that system.
> These systems potentially, and in most cases in fact, result in superior performance of the birds as relates to their potential genetically and athletically. The birds genetics are in no way changed. It might be possible for one to mistakenly conclude that the genetic package in his flock is superior to others that do not use the same management practices? A way to prove or disprove that would be to exchange young birds with someone in an effort to determine if there is a measurable difference in varying management systems?


I agree, A valid point for sure, One thing I could see potentially happening is that the birds raced on that system may become less competitive over time unless that system is used. Pigeons have been prooven to be exceptionally diverse so surely if your selection pressure is based on a system the birds will overtime become genetically suited to that system and maybe not so suited to others.


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## scott.peets (Dec 1, 2012)

I agree that you may have mistaken YB be flown as widowers. You can for sure do that. But also know racing to the perch is a type of system too. Perches become territory and territory is a big motivator. Maturity of the bird can play a part in the tools you have but I think one of the goals of breeding early is the molt and number of flights. I think a super pigeon is a super pigeon if its in form and has all the necessary qualities and care it will win. 

No matter what when selecting young birds its always a gamble just because a bird has a stacked pedigree or came from your best pair etc etc.. does not mean every baby that hatches is going to be a super or even good for that matter. Imagine a pair that just bred winners every egg? Its like finding a unicorn.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Others may have different breeding strategies, but my goal is to breed from around 20 pairs of breeders. Each breeder should be a top 3 place finisher, top 10 finisher, or top 10% finisher. Eventually I want all of my breeders to be top 3 place finishers although this might be hard to do. Top 10 finishers are what I'm ideally looking for. 

In the perfect world, 20 pairs of breeders would give you 120 young birds from 3 rounds. However say you only get 100 young birds (due to infertile eggs, hens not laying due to old age, babies dying at young age, etc). The best 6 young birds you get (as far as race results/training goes) every year should be put into the breeding loft. The 6 birds should replace 6 of your current breeders that under performed. Eventually, you'd have a breeding loft full of top 10 birds or better. 

Out of the 100 young birds, I'd fly 60 of them myself (2nd and 3rd round). The other 40-50 young birds (1st round) would be sent out to other fanciers for them to fly and test for me. There would be perks for them that would encourage them to fly some young birds for me. 

This is the size of the ideal breeding program for OLR's that I think I'd like.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well after reading all this my, lights are on most of my birds are premated and as soon as they are all mated I'll put them together so I can have the first round at the same time.
I would like to fly some one loft races so I think I'll just fly to the perch with no light system. So I guess we will see what happens this summer. 
Dave


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

For the past 6 years, I've flown young birds to the perch and that worked well in the first two years. However, as more and more guys in the club started using light and/or dark systems, my birds fell further behind the leader. The distances measured in time can be anywhere from ten to thirty minutes. This year, I'm planning on using an advancing system. Only time will tell if the system will be the difference maker.


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

For my own experiments and observing successful flyers, I've come to the conclusion that a flyer who uses a system and wins at club level can also win a one loft race. In the end, a winning bird will be from a winning loft, regardless of that lofts system. In club racing, it is a factor. But, the guy who wins there have won one loft races, and, the guy who doesn't win club isn't winning a one loft race either. Of course, there are exceptions, but, I've looked at enough lofts to make this conclusion.

I've experimented with both light and dark. I think the light is a lot easier to manage. You have to have time on your hands to do the dark system.


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## birdman21 (Nov 30, 2011)

I am breeding my birds early this year for the first time. Main reason being that i want my birds totally moulted by the time the band races start. I was told by a fairly sucessful fancier that flying young birds on any kind of mated system is too stressful on them; like the difference between a 14 yr old kid and a 30 yr old man having a family. Made sense IMHO


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