# Distances



## Slamdance (Apr 8, 2008)

Just a quick couple of questions that I hope you all might be able to help me with. 

What distance constitutes a short race? Would you release your birds from said distance in regular, everyday training?


-Thanks


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

100 mile or 150 mile is a short race
for everday training----30 miles or a distance where they have to fly for 1 hour


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## Slamdance (Apr 8, 2008)

Thats brillant thank you.

You wouldn't happen to have a source for that information would you? Not trying to push my luck, but it's for my dissertation and it would be handy to have.

I'm testing to see if pigeons with poor long-distance homing ability can compensate by being better over short distances. It's my understanding that pigeons use landmarks and smell primarily over short distances, and sun-compass/magnetism more over long distances.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Slamdance---JUST forget what I said----I'm most likley Wrong as I only Raced pigeon 31 years. WAIT for someone else to answer your Question.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

sky_tx I don't think your info was being doubted. The request for info is for a dissertation and typically requires source acknowledgment. 

Slamdance, if you need printed references there are a pile out there. You could contact the AU or IF. On the other hand someone like sky_tx is an invaluable resource or real world, everyday experience. If you school allows verbal sourcing sky_tx might be willing to provide you the required info to be used as a source.


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## Slamdance (Apr 8, 2008)

Sorry sky tx, i wasn't doubting you at all. It's just that sources are required for most facts/figures etc. for our written papers. Clearly your 31 years is a valuable resource.

Edit- It's also really hard to convey what you mean when typing.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Jaysen & Spirit---Please post your answer to the man's Question.
That wil give him more options --from your knowledge.
I have Never posted things I "think" will work---only things I know "will" work.
But looks like it is time to KEEP my mouth shut.
And I guess ya'll will want to know how I kept 2 Cock birds alive for 20 years?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

sky tx said:


> Jaysen & Spirit---Please post your answer to the man's Question.
> That wil give him more options --from your knowledge.
> I have Never posted things I "think" will work---only things I know "will" work.
> But looks like it is time to KEEP my mouth shut.
> And I guess ya'll will want to know how I kept 2 Cock birds alive for 20 years?


sky tx, you have no idea how much I would want to know that. Not that I ever expect to be an overwhelming source of info (I am still learning all this myself), but you old timers get my attention every time you say something. 

Slamdance, You might want to send sky tx a private message (look up there on the right side of the forum header) and ask for the info you need to use him as a source. From the amount of time he has been in the sport I have a feeling that you can get more validated information from him and the other old timers here than you will find in a library. It isn't like pigeon racing is all the rage anymore. Half a dozen sources like sky tx should add quite a bit to the book info you can find. 

Then again he could be a grumpy old curmudgeon who won't help at all. I highly doubt that though.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

WELL--its been a few posts about me and my comments
But NO other answers to Slamdance's question. 
Give him some answers Folks.
Short Race????? EverdayTraining????


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

AU rules and regulations state that anything over 75 miles qualifies for a race (race rule 7.32). Most folks consider 75 up to about 250 miles short races. 250 to 450 or so middle distance races and then anything over 450 miles long distance races. I also believe that AU rules and regulations state anything over 300 miles can be considered a 2 day clocking event, but don't quote me on that. You can access all the race rules at the following link for the AU http://www.pigeon.org/racerules.htm You can find the rules for the IF at this link http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/if_by_laws.pdf You can find the race rules for the Canadian Racing Pigeon Union at this link http://www.crpu.ca/index.php?page=racerules&pageid=37

Not sure what other information you may need documented, but whatever it is let us know and I'm sure somebody can give you the answers, and maybe find a source for those answers.


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## Slamdance (Apr 8, 2008)

Thats great, thanks for your help.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

*Training--young birds*

9 days before the first race
30 miles ever morning on the line of flight
Let them up at sun-rise
They will get where they will not circle--but head straight for home.
Yes it takes time--But you want to win? Or just fly for the fun of having Pigeons. And nothing's wrong with flying just for the fun of it.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Slamdance said:


> Thats brillant thank you.
> 
> You wouldn't happen to have a source for that information would you? Not trying to push my luck, but it's for my dissertation and it would be handy to have.
> 
> I'm testing to see if pigeons with poor long-distance homing ability can compensate by being better over short distances. It's my understanding that pigeons use landmarks and smell primarily over short distances, and sun-compass/magnetism more over long distances.


*Hi Sundance,First I would ask you how do you determine what is poor long distance homing ability? There is also a ACOUSTIC theory.There is a book "BORN TO WIN" by Dr. Wim PETERS that may be of intrest to you. I have to cut it short as I have things to take care of,I will try to get back later tonight. * GEORGE


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

A bit off topic, but do short distance winners have a hard time finding their way home from long distance? I understand that different pigeons have different wing shapes optimized for a certain distance, but is there also a difference in how they home?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

cotdt said:


> A bit off topic, but do short distance winners have a hard time finding their way home from long distance? I understand that different pigeons have different wing shapes optimized for a certain distance, but is there also a difference in how they home?


So called short distance birds were developed by there breeders to do well in shorter races. where the breeder did not want to race in the longer races. BUT many a short distance bird can race the long races as well. People use the name speed bird spritn bird to relate to the short distance type. BUT agin the birds were mostly race in the short races. AND often a bird as such has to be fast to Get it baring to get home to win. So it is a smarter bird more often.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

cotdt said:


> A bit off topic, but do short distance winners have a hard time finding their way home from long distance? I understand that different pigeons have different wing shapes optimized for a certain distance, but is there also a difference in how they home?


Also a lot of it depends on conditions. A 'speed' bird isn't going to fly well in a short race with headwinds, or in rainy conditions. But, that same speed bird may well go ahead and win an easy 500 or 600 mile race. I don't really think that wing shape has much to do with it though.


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Wow sky_tx, give the guy a break. I think you're taking this a tad personal. He's writing a paper and needs sources. All he asked was if you had any reference material. It's kinda hard to write a research paper stating "a 74 year old guy named sky_tx on a pigeon forum told me". Sky_tx is right that short distances are about 100-150 miles. Middle would be anything over 200-350. Long distance would be anything from 400-up and most long distance races in the US are around 500-600.

Anyhow, TS contact the American Pigeon Racing Union which was provided in the link above at www.pigeon.org. You can contact them and they'll send you brochures and anything else you would ever need concerning homers especially racing.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Jaysen said:


> sky tx, you have no idea how much I would want to know that. Not that I ever expect to be an overwhelming source of info (I am still learning all this myself), but you old timers get my attention every time you say something.
> 
> Slamdance, You might want to send sky tx a private message (look up there on the right side of the forum header) and ask for the info you need to use him as a source. From the amount of time he has been in the sport I have a feeling that you can get more validated information from him and the other old timers here than you will find in a library. It isn't like pigeon racing is all the rage anymore. Half a dozen sources like sky tx should add quite a bit to the book info you can find.
> 
> Then again he could be a grumpy old curmudgeon who won't help at all. I highly doubt that though.


Sky tx, pm the guy your phone number, all he needs is your name address and number to put you on the bib page as a source. Slamdance, If you need more sources pm me your number I'll talk.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

I read somewhere on the internet that smell is NOT how racing pigeons find their way home. You should be able to find it by doing a search for "homing instinct". They have recently discovered that pigeons have tiny magnet particles in their beaks. Birds that have been blinded are able to make it back to within a short distance from their lofts, so sight is only needed for the last meters or so.
As for the short and long distance racing ability, what do we really know about pigeons ?
Each one of us believes in what appeals to him as being a short or long dist characteristic.
Those who have raced upto the marathon distances may be able to help here.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

O K Floks--Sorry I commented
I'll just let the flyers learn like I did --Trial & Error.
I had one Pigeon that had a tad over 4,000 miles offical Race miles to his credit-WOW wonder how that was managed.
Mouth Closed
Yes 74 y/o---been married to the same woman 53 years.
SO saying Trial & Error is putting it mildly.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sky tx said:


> O K Floks--Sorry I commented
> I'll just let the flyers learn like I did --Trial & Error.
> I had one Pigeon that had a tad over 4,000 miles offical Race miles to his credit-WOW wonder how that was managed.
> Mouth Closed
> ...


53 years! holy cow.

don't stop sharing, you "old guys" are all we have to learn from.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

sky tx said:


> O K Floks--Sorry I commented
> I'll just let the flyers learn like I did --Trial & Error.
> I had one Pigeon that had a tad over 4,000 miles offical Race miles to his credit-WOW wonder how that was managed.
> Mouth Closed
> ...


WOW you have been married longer than my hole life, maybe we should be getting some tips on that too LOL

Anyone with that much experiences should share his experiences with all, birds too. Congratulations - hope you make another 53 years 

I have read many of your post, keep up the good work !!!


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*credit*



sky tx said:


> O K Floks--Sorry I commented
> I'll just let the flyers learn like I did --Trial & Error.
> I had one Pigeon that had a tad over 4,000 miles offical Race miles to his credit-WOW wonder how that was managed.
> Mouth Closed
> ...


 I hope I don't get bashed for not giving input about pigeons but there is NO way I could offer anything more then TX, BigT or george. I read all you have to say and take it very serious however I had to laugh when you said 53 years, maybe it was more a good smile. My parents have been married for 63 years and raised ten children.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

sky tx said:


> O K Floks--Sorry I commented
> I'll just let the flyers learn like I did --Trial & Error.
> I had one Pigeon that had a tad over 4,000 miles offical Race miles to his credit-WOW wonder how that was managed.
> Mouth Closed
> ...


I've been on this forum for all of a day at this point. Why have I seen so many ornery posts from "senior members" of the forum? For god's sake...all the guy did was ask you for sources!!! How touchy you must be to tell someone to go to h*ll (actually...you gave exactly the response I would expect from my seven-year-old daughter under the circumstance) just because they don't accept your word as law the first time they hear from you?! And then, to make it even better, a bunch of people write posts that make excuses for you and try to sooth you!!! Face up to it...you overreacted in the first place, and YOU should be apologizing rather than the other way around. Being seventy-four doesn't excuse rudeness!

This is the eighth post I have read from a "senior member" where they walked all over a newbie for no apparent reason other than their feelings may have been hurt. That doesn't bode well for the pigeon-keeping hobby and this forum.

Trial and error isn't being married to the same woman for 53 years! My way is true trial and error - married to three different women for a total of 22 years.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

ptras--Sorry --I must have missed your answer/reply to his Question.
Please post it again.
I guess I could/should apologize -Because I was raised up in Mississippi back in the 30's.
Things were a "little" different in the 30's & 40's--But I'm sure you know-have read-or maybe lived in those years.
But then again I am probably "wrong"


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

sky tx said:


> ptras--Sorry --I must have missed your answer/reply to his Question.
> Please post it again.


See? Exactly what I'm talking about.

I'll have you know, that I have been keeping pigeons for all of four days. I purchased our first three breeding pairs of Birmingham Rollers on Saturday June 26th. I may not know a lot about pigeon rearing, but I know how to be courteous to other people.

I also know that the average collegiate thesis review board doesn't give a flying (pigeon dropping) if you are 74 years old, and have been married for 53 years. They want firm data. Some crotchety old guy on a pigeon forum thread does not constitute data.

So, since you have conveniently withdrawn your answer to the original post, maybe you should just bow out instead of continuing to post inflammatory messages that have no value to anyone.

Being alive a long time doesn't give you wisdom...it just makes you old. And being four years old in 1940 doesn't qualify you as "raised in the 30s"


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes --ptras is Right--I should have never joined this site 5-6 years ago and never posted 800+ comments.
I'll just let these pigeon people that has had pigeons for 4-5 days help the newer flyers.
They seem to know how to use correct language.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

sky tx, I have come to your defense several times, I think you really misunderstood what was going on. The original poster isn't interested in racing pigeons, he is simply writing his thesis about it for his masters degree. He is looking for sources of information that will be accepted internationally, and in general forums are not. He came to us to point him in the right direction for these sources and probably to bounce some ideas off of us as a sounding board before he makes his defense of his thesis in front of the board which he has been assigned. He wasn't doubting what you said, he simply needed a source in order to validate the information to the board. I hope you keep posting as you are close in area to where I live and I think you have a lot of information to share. Hard thing about a forum is you can only read the words. In the sales business they say 80% of a presentation is body language, 12% is voice inflection, and 8% is the words, unfortunately on the internet we are only getting the 8%.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ptras said:


> See? Exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> I'll have you know, that I have been keeping pigeons for all of four days. I purchased our first three breeding pairs of Birmingham Rollers on Saturday June 26th. I may not know a lot about pigeon rearing, but I know how to be courteous to other people.
> 
> ...


Well....now that you scolded him, and used your college writing skills at name calling, after you felt slighted as he didn't realize how important you are.......can we get back to your orginal post ?

You can quote me as your sourse. 

Warren Smith author and internationally acclaimed pigeon expert. 
Life Member American Racing Pigeon Union
Publicty Director for the United Pigeon Combine
Founder, Secretary and Treasurer of the York Racing Pigeon Club aka YRPC
Owner, Founder of Smith Family Lofts USA

I have given interviews on Pigeon TV.

I Have given interviews on Pigeon Radio.

I had a CD which was produced and distributed under "How To Raise Healthy Pigeons"

I have written articles which were published in the Racing Pigeon Digest

Author Illona Haus in one of her best seller's "Blue Valor", wrote in her Acknowledments "Warren Smith of Smith Family Lofts, Pigeon Aficionado"
Pocket Books, 1230 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY 10020
ISBN-13;978-0-7434-5809-2 I really liked this one....because I got to be a big time pigeon expert consultant for the book ! 

You could also just load up the term "Warren Smith Pigeons" and some of my writings may show up. 

Or....you could just ask my Mom...she thinks I am pretty smart....and my wife, she will be the first to admit, that I often think I know it all. 

Because of the nature of our sport, there will be a single release point, and perhaps hundreds of different distances to that release point. In other words, the vast majority of clubs will hold as their shortest race, a "100 Mile" race. You could very likely have a hundred members fly in that race, and not one of them would have a measurement of 100 Miles. 99.8 miles maybe....or in my case 137.660 miles. Vast majority of clubs will also have a 150 mile race in which the distances for everyone will be about 50 miles more then the 100 mile race. In my case, 194.181 miles. 

Vast majority of clubs do not fly over 600 Miles. So...one can do the math....100 to 600 miles ...so 200 and under is short....200 to 400 is Middle...and 400 and over is long. Of course, this applies to Older Birds. 

In YB's, there really are no races over 400....the 400 is the extreme long end. For YB's most clubs will have a 100, 150, 200, 250, and a 300 Again, do the math...150 and under is a short race. Somewhere in here is a middle...and the long, IMHO is 250 and 300+

Now, perhaps we have established what a "short" race is.....every day training is to get the bird into condition to fly those distances. I would not know how to answer the question as to what a "typical" or "everyday" training toss might be. I think you could assume with much confidence, that it is less then the actual race distance. Often much less. 

You stated:

*I'm testing to see if pigeons with poor long-distance homing ability can compensate by being better over short distances. It's my understanding that pigeons use landmarks and smell primarily over short distances, and sun-compass/magnetism more over long distances.*

I am not convinced, that a "good" sprint bird, is somehow "mentally challenged" when it comes to long distance homing ability. Not sure how one would determine one has poor long distance homing ability, until after the fact....like the bird gets lost. 

It is not really a fair comparison, but have you ever looked at a Champion human marathon runner and compare his body type to say a Champion 100 meter runner ? Two very radically different physical body types. I suspect that because of selective breeding, we have simply built some pigeon chassis which will work well in the short run, but will have to go down for a break just like a human sprinter would, because the sprinter overheats or tires after so many hours of working.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

sky tx said:


> ptras--Sorry --I must have missed your answer/reply to his Question.
> Please post it again.
> I guess I could/should apologize -Because I was raised up in Mississippi back in the 30's.
> Things were a "little" different in the 30's & 40's--But I'm sure you know-have read-or maybe lived in those years.
> But then again I am probably "wrong"



When it comes right down to it.....does not take a whole lot to make you feel slighted either. You could take a lesson from my grandson...."Take a chill pill Paps"....I can hear it now..... IMHO, you read too much into his orginal reply or simply did not understand his response. I'm still not sure you understood what he meant. But, you did seem pretty hell bent on being offended. 

Is there a full moon out there ?


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

O K Warren--No I did not get my knowledge from Books--So I have no references to pass on to him.
When anyone reads articles about pigeons--They "better" know the person who wrote
it. Is it facts or just idea's.
If you have a Pigeon that is Ill--give it an Aspirin--Problem cured---you bury it the next day.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sky tx said:


> ptras--Sorry --I must have missed your answer/reply to his Question.
> Please post it again.
> I guess I could/should apologize -Because I was raised up in Mississippi back in the 30's.Things were a "little" different in the 30's & 40's--But I'm sure you know-have read-or maybe lived in those years.
> But then again I am probably "wrong"


I could sit down and talk to you for hours! 

at this point with anyone knowing your age, it is suprising they would tell you what and how to post a message.. pretty much at this point you don't give a rats..a**.... lol... ( lol..that means laugh out loud)..


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....now that you scolded him, and used your college writing skills at name calling, after you felt slighted as he didn't realize how important you are.......can we get back to your orginal post ?
> 
> You can quote me as your sourse.
> 
> ...


Mr. Smith...you misunderstand. I was not the offended party in this case. Correction...I was offended by the way SkyTex threw a tantrum when he thought (incorrectly) that someone had dared to question his post. As I stated earlier, it is exactly what I would expect from my seven-year-old. "If you don't like the way I play the game, I'll take my ball and go home! And anyone who questions my decision is a dumb poopyhead!" (Although I must give him credit for not stooping to the "poopyhead" language.) You are correct, that I am college educated. However, I did not "use my college writing skills" to call him names. I just pointed out that he was acting like a spoiled child. No college education is required to see that! This whole thing could have been avoided, if he had responded initially as you did. All he needed to do is give his credentials rather than have a tantrum about someone *DARING *to ask him for credentials. (Of course, many people who feel that they do not have any credentials in a particular subject will bluster and bluff to try and cover up that feeling.)

And as to my college education? I have a degree in Dispute Resolution. Pretty funny huh? I do love a good row 

Think people will ignore me now when I post questions regarding pigeon keeping?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ptras said:


> Mr. Smith...you misunderstand. I was not the offended party in this case. Correction...I was offended by the way SkyTex threw a tantrum when he thought (incorrectly) that someone had dared to question his post. As I stated earlier, it is exactly what I would expect from my seven-year-old. "If you don't like the way I play the game, I'll take my ball and go home! And anyone who questions my decision is a dumb poopyhead!" (Although I must give him credit for not stooping to the "poopyhead" language.) You are correct, that I am college educated. However, I did not "use my college writing skills" to call him names. I just pointed out that he was acting like a spoiled child. No college education is required to see that! This whole thing could have been avoided, if he had responded initially as you did. All he needed to do is give his credentials rather than have a tantrum about someone *DARING *to ask him for credentials. (Of course, many people who feel that they do not have any credentials in a particular subject will bluster and bluff to try and cover up that feeling.)
> 
> And as to my college education? I have a degree in Dispute Resolution. Pretty funny huh? I do love a good row
> 
> Think people will ignore me now when I post questions regarding pigeon keeping?


why would you even care....life is too short


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Right Ptras--I did not do good in school but did get a little "learning" Managed 12 grades-high school only.My job was not the best-But I have traveled to all 50 states-all over Canada and Mexico. In doing this I have flown 1 million 800 thousand miles.
But then Someone had to do it.-Thank goodness for "spell check" because my hand writing is BAD and my Spelling worse.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

LOL, dispute resolution? I didn't even know that was a possible major, you are either pretty good at jesting, or its an actual major I have never heard of.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2010)

oh how the pigeon world does spiral into itself sometimes lol


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

YES Matt--guess we learned about another Major??? Not sure where ptras will get a job using it-But it pays GOOD?


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> LOL, dispute resolution? I didn't even know that was a possible major, you are either pretty good at jesting, or its an actual major I have never heard of.


I am a good jester, but it actually IS an actual major. Its in the legal field, but is not a JD. UMass taught me well


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

sky tx said:


> YES Matt--guess we learned about another Major??? Not sure where ptras will get a job using it-But it pays GOOD?


Pays me well enough so I can buy pigeons  I actually work as an Accounts Receivable Manager for a Medical Billing company. Prior to this job, I was the Contracts Manager for a Software Development firm. I negotiated contracts with forty-four of the top one hundred banks in the world. (Of course, due to mergers and acquisitions, those forty-four banks are now twenty-seven banks.)


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2010)

ptras said:


> I am a good jester, but it actually IS an actual major. Its in the legal field, but is not a JD. UMass taught me well


once the spiral starts there is no end in sight  lol


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

You can always tell a umass graduate--you just CAN't tell them Much


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

sky tx said:


> You can always tell a umass graduate--you just CAN't tell them Much


You can tell us anything you want, but we will ignore it since we already know everything


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2010)

ptras said:


> You can tell us anything you want, but we will ignore it since we already know everything


yes stop drop and roll to put this fire out my good man lol you are doing good so keep rolling hehe


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

LokotaLoft said:


> yes stop drop and roll to put this fire out my good man lol you are doing good so keep rolling hehe


Interesting choice of words...I was a career firefighter before leaving the FD to return to college. Most days at work, I'm still fighting fires...just financial ones now.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2010)

ptras said:


> Interesting choice of words...I was a career firefighter before leaving the FD to return to college. Most days at work, I'm still fighting fires...just financial ones now.


then you know if theres any kind of sparks still flying this fire will never be put out lol


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

ptras said:


> Mr. Smith...you misunderstand. I was not the offended party in this case. Correction...I was offended by the way SkyTex threw a tantrum when he thought (incorrectly) that someone had dared to question his post. As I stated earlier, it is exactly what I would expect from my seven-year-old. "If you don't like the way I play the game, I'll take my ball and go home! And anyone who questions my decision is a dumb poopyhead!" (Although I must give him credit for not stooping to the "poopyhead" language.) You are correct, that I am college educated. However, I did not "use my college writing skills" to call him names. I just pointed out that he was acting like a spoiled child. No college education is required to see that! This whole thing could have been avoided, if he had responded initially as you did. All he needed to do is give his credentials rather than have a tantrum about someone *DARING *to ask him for credentials. (Of course, many people who feel that they do not have any credentials in a particular subject will bluster and bluff to try and cover up that feeling.)
> 
> And as to my college education? I have a degree in Dispute Resolution. Pretty funny huh? I do love a good row
> 
> Think people will ignore me now when I post questions regarding pigeon keeping?


Kool, I am a Licensed Court Appointed Mediator for the State of Texas Certified in Family and Business Mediation, go it when I was working on my Masters in Conflict Resolution.


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## Slamdance (Apr 8, 2008)

Hey guys, sorry for the late reply. I've been travelling for a few days, but i can see a number of you have replied. I hope to get chance to read those replies more thoroughly soon, hopefully tommorow


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