# Help!! Hurt Pigeon< Need Help Asap!!!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i found him today and he was all fluffed up and sitting alone, tried to feed him and noticed he cant pick up food, then noticed his beak was stuck partially open, with like yellow stuff that is hard and keeps his beak stuck. the yellow stuff is only on ONE SIDE OF BEAK, and that eye is closed too most of the time. i dont know if broke or if i should TRY to take stuff off. it almost looked like there was something big stuck in mouth/throat???
i have no money, and i need to save this guy, it would break my heart.
i tried to post pic, sorry its bad. but please i will take more pics after he rests a little. i have a heater on low and he is on a towel in my cat carrier with water in a bowl, shallow water so he doesnt drown. 

i will send you more pics, just reply or email me with your help i SOOOOOOOOO appreciate it!!!!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sounds like Canker...I don't advise on meds, but others will be along shortly to help! 

At this point, DON'T try and pick at the orange stuff...

Where are you located? There may be some members near by who could help...


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Definitely looks like a nasty case of canker and needs treatment right away .. also tube feeding of the bird if that is still possible. 

XX .. we NEED to know where you are in order to help .. this bird needs specific medication and we might get lucky and have someone in your area that has the meds. 

Kindly get back to us with your location ASAP .. this bird does not likely have much time to spare.

Do you have a vet that might help? Pet stores or feed and tack stores nearby that might have what we need?

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk, by the way, and thank you for assisting this very needy pigeon!

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's more than likely canker. Incidentally, canker isn't the same as cancer. It's actually means an infection by a one-celled organism called a "trichomonad" and the true name of the disease is "trichomoniasis". It will kill the bird in time at the rate that it's going.

He probably can't drink out of a shallow pan--pigeons and doves suck water up by suction instead of drinking like most other birds. That's one of their peculiarities. So, make the depth deeper than a half-inch and that'll help him out. Since his eye is affected, you can be sure that this lesion extends into the sinuses on that side and is getting near to the eye. The yellow stuff is actually similar to pus in humans--it's just a lot thicker in birds. It's comprised of spent leukocytes (dead white blood cells) and other inflammatory response debris.

What needs to be done is the bird needs a course of a Nitroimidazole drug. That includes Metronidazole (one trade name is "Flagyl") that is occasionally used for humans. If you know a pharmacist REALLY well, you might could beg, borrow or steal a single 250 milligram Flagyl tablet and treat this bird. Otherwise, you would need to find some used for treating similar diseases in aquarium fish (sometimes called "FishZole") but it seems like that's getting harder and harder to find. Anyhow, if you can get some, you'd want to carefully chop it up and give him 1/16 of the tablet at a whack once or twice a day, it might very well save his life.

Fairly often, though, birds in this condition actually die of starvation and dehydration before they die of the disease itself. Most birds are infected with it and don't even get the clinical disease. So, if you can get some food down him you might buy some time to hunt for a rehabber, vet or the medication.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*me again, raina*

hey, im in boston massachussetts. 
im so scared to touch his beak. i filled a syringe with water and broke the tip off and tried to drop water in but he didnt like it at all, and i cant get him in the right position to do it right anyways, his nose is on the top of beak, right?? the nostrils??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, they are and he can either breathe through those or through his mouth just like us. You're not going to break anything by touching his beak. He can probably drink okay if he wants to--eating is his worst problem. You need to get on the phone and see if you can locate some of that medicine at aquarium supply stores or vets. You might ask a vet (or just the office personnel) if there's a vet in the area that treats wildlife. In such a case, you also need to ask that vet's office if they'll treat pigeons. Sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. If they do, it might be to a lethal injection to put them to sleep. That's fairly common so you have to check beforehand.

Otherwise, it's down to you either finding a rehabber in your area or finding that medicine rather quickly. I don't remember ever hearing of anyone of our members (active, anyway) that lives in the Boston area but we'll do some checking.

Back to the bird, your best bet to get some food down him is to wrap him in a towel like a burrito with just his head sticking out and then pry his beak open wide enough to take a good look inside. You need to see if you can squeeze a freshly-wetted puppy chow bit down past that yellow deposit to the esophagus. As scary as that sounds, dying of starvation is worse so just try and think of it in those terms. You don't need to worry about touching that yellow stuff, it's not a disease that we get--just wash your hands when you're through looking or feeding. Incidentally, it'd be nice to get about 10 or 20 puppy chow bits down at one shot.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ive called tons of places and no one answers, also, if i open his beak wont i break open the yellow stuff???
can wet kitty pebbles work too??
please check if there is ANYONE in or around boston.
i need help with this, really bad


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, there's a place that you can try in Hingham, Mass. Just click on this link and scroll down to that entry and give them a call:

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

The first is a link from one of our other veterans, Cynthia (cyro51), to illustrate what Pidgey is talking about, also if you could make sure the bird is hydrated using the International Rehydrating Solution mix from the other link would be good as well, you can use an eye dropper or small syringe and slowly administer to the side of the beak.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

Best of luck with this bird and thanks for trying to help him,

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for picking up this needy bird.

Please follow the protocal on the thread posted by Ron, thread #"8822"

It is very important that you follow these guidelines first.

Have you tried calling any of the rehabbers on this link?:



http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm#ma


Have you tried locating an avian vet in your area? If they cannot or won't help, perhaps they have lists of rehabbers they keep for just this kind of need, that is how I found one.

http://aav.org/vet-lookup/locate-vet2.php?query_field=city&search_string=Boston


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Moxie, and thank you for rescuing this pigeon.

Treesa is right - call different veterinarians and ask them what they do when a wild bird is brought to them. A city as large as Boston should have a number of rehabbers and possibly even a wildlife center. 

You could also try calling the Mass. state wildlife office. I know here in NC that our state wildlife people are the ones who issue state permits to rehabbers and keep a current list of all available rehabbers.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Here's a link to the permitted wildlife rehabilitators in MA: http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/dfw_rehab.htm

Try calling some of the ones in your area to see if they can assist with this pigeon or perhaps can refer you to someone who can.

Terry


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i have cleared the hard pus from the side of his mouth by squirting water on and getting it wet and he shook it off, but there is more in the back of throat and i tried to use a q tip to see if it was soft like the other stuff and it isnt as soft and im afraid to put pressure. also, looking from the top his bottom beak is a little to the right of the top beak, like a break or dislocation that got infected, or whatever infection he has got hard in his mouth and is causing the beak to be dis-aligned.
thanks for help everyone, ive called a million places and they say most likely he woul;d be put down, im so torn.
i got a friend to get me the TAGYL (generic kind though) but im afraid if i get it and give it to him that he will die because that isnt the problem.
i have a friend that is supposed to take him to the new england wildlife center, but again they might put him to sleep, but if they cant fix him how could i???
its so refreshing to find this site as i never thought there was so many people that cared about pigeons, wild feral pigeons at that. i love them and everyone i know hates them and thinks they are disgusting flying rats, and thats just so sad.

he is drinking water, but one place said not to give him water in case it is and abcess, but he likes it so much i cant say no, as he probably hasnt had any water for a while, he cant/wont eat, and i tried to mush up some wet oatmeal cookie, thats all i have, and i cant get it in the throat to eat it because of the cr*p in there. they told me not to touch him either but i am anyways to give him water. 
does anyone know if there is anyway he could have something that my cat could catch?? or me?? i keep my cat away obviously but if there is something that could transmit to my cat anyways through the air or where the bird has been walking????

his poop is white with some grass green in there, is that normal???

Thanks for all your help

ill keep you updated


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, the poop sounds normal for a bird that probably hasn't eaten in days. There should be white urates and a blob of bile, which they generally excrete even if there's no food going through.

As to the lesion (the yellow stuff) that's so normal for Trichomoniasis that we see it a thousand times a year. Believe me, we're pretty sure. If you've got the drug in hand (or your friend does and he or she can read the package), then tell us how much of and what the active ingredient is so that we can be sure (for example: Metronidazole....250 mg.). Then, if it's right, we'll tell you how to give the bird the stuff and you just do it. Trust me, the bird doesn't stand much of a chance if you don't.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got to go to a meeting pretty quickly so I'll say that I've already looked up "Tagyl" and it's slightly different packaging than normal. That's not a problem--it'll work just fine. However, you're going to have to determine which form it's in--it's either a suspension where 5 milliliters equals 200 milligrams of medication, or it's a 400 or a 200 milligram tablet. In the case of the 200 milligram tablet, just go for broke and cut the tablet in half, and then half those pieces and then try to cut one of those pieces in half as well. That will be the equivalent of a 1/8th piece of the tablet or about 25 milligrams. Pry his beak open and drop it down in. If the chopping up of the tablet is a little rough, don't sweat it too much. There's a fairly wide safety margin on this medication in this use. 

If you end up with a 400 milligram tablet, then do like above but try to half that last piece again. If you don't get it exactly right, it's not going to be the end of the world. Just do your best and have a little faith in the medication. Then keep us posted.

If it's the suspension, then you're going to have to take a quarter teaspoon of it and try to divide that in half and get that down him (drop by drop if you have to) with a syringe. 

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

if he has thrichimosis (whatever , however you spell it) would it cause his beak to be a little crooked??? has ANYONE ever seen it like this??

i am getting the generic metronidizol, i will go get it now and tell you the dosage...

i will post more pics later, but please if anyone knows about the crooked beak thing, please help me. im having an emotional breakdown about this little guy....


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes, an advanced canker infection may cause a beak to misalign.

Please follow Pidgey's instructions, and start the meds for him ASAP. Please post if you need any help,

Good luck,

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

jazaroo said:


> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822
> 
> Ron



Hi xxmoxiexx,

Above is the thread that Ron posted that you inquired about. Just click on it and it will give you all the information needed. 

Thank you.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi xxmoxiexx,

Sorry, I'm coming to this thread a little late in the game. Everyone here has given you good advice, but if you're still looking for some outside help, then you may want to try giving this place a call.

I don't know how close or far this may be from you but you may want to check out this place...it is in N. Grafton, MA (exit 11 off MA turnpike). It is the Wildlife Clinic at Tufts University, phone #598 839 7918. Their hours are 8-5 monday through friday, 9-12 saturday and sunday. Here is the link:
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/wildlife/service.html

My sister in law was a veterinary student at Tufts and did a rotation there and said many people bring in injured animals and birds and that they are pigeon friendly and do not euthanize unless it is a hopeless case. She also said the head doctor has many connections with people who do rehab in the area, so you may want to check this out.

Good luck and thanks for trying to help this pigeon.

Linda


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i got the medicine, it is metronidazole 250 mg, tablet form, 
i cleared the stuff from the side of his beak, and when i got it wet it was just pus, but in the back of his throat to one side it is still there, his beak is crooked though, im just afraid it is broken and maybe infected from the breaK? DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THIS AT ALL?? i know some of you said you are pretty sure, but i dont know.
also, pidgey, if you are back yet, i dissolved the pill in water, will that work or does it have to be the whole piece solid???

i couldnt get him anywhere today, except for animal control to get put down and if he has a chance here with me i want to help but i want to be sure i am doing the right thing. if anyone knows about this more i will take better pics and send them to you, or anyone else just tell me what kind of pics and i can post them.

my friend was supposed to come get him to take him to a place but he hasnt showed and isnt answering so i think something happened to his mom as she is in the hospital sick. 
and the other place, tufts, is in grafton, i cant get there. and have NO MONEY at all to get there. i spent my last 20$ on his medicine, and had to go through many loops, mostly illegal, to get it. 

oh, how long until the medicine works, like how long until he shows improvement so i know whether its working or not???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, since you decided to dissolve it in water, the question then becomes how much water did you dissolve it in? Actually, Metronidazole doesn't dissolve well and so you usually have to shake the living fool out of it and then suck it up into a syringe IMMEDIATELY upon shaking it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, it becomes pretty important how much water you dissolved it in so that we can figure out how much of it you need to suck up into the syringe after you've shaken it up.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't suppose you got more than one pill, didja'?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, several of the pigeons that get canker in this way (like yours) end up with "scissorbeak"--that's almost more common in this presentation than not. They can easily learn to live with scissorbeak or, later on, you can apply pressure to the beak like doing therapy and possibly straighten it back up. What it may be telling us more than anything is that he's fairly young and this disease has gotten him during the growth of the beak during an important period.

Quite frankly, we'll have to deal with that later after we hopefully save the bird's life. I will find you a story on here of a dove that Reti has that had almost the same thing and possibly even worse a few months ago.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

yes, i got a whole script full, i cut it into quarters, then crushed a quarter and put in a tiny amount of water, and gave him about half of it (to account for all the water that dripped out of his mouth) so he got about 25 mg. should i try to put the solid chunk in?? i mean would he overdose on it if he did get the medicine from the water and then if i gave him the solid chunk too?? or should i wait to give it to him???

thank you pidgey, you are my hero today!! seriously, and everyone else here is so helpful, thanks everyone for hanging in there with me and birdy.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

that story would be so awesome, thank you again so much. 
also, the feeding and solid medicine thing, the back of his throat is so covered by pus (pretty hard pus) that he only has a little hole down his throat, i havent fed him at all, i dont know how to go about this. i soaked an oatmeal cookie but it was just mush and since he cant close his mouth he cant get it. im scared i will choke him if i shove anything down there, and will broken up cat kibbles work instead of dog kibbles?? 
but i dont know how to feed this guy, he has had water but how long can they go without food?? i used some water with salt and sugar, will that substitute food for a couple days?? is there anything else i can do food related to get him sustenence???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you believe that you got 25 milligrams into the bird, then let's wait for about 12 hours to do any more. Actually, there are more than one protocols floating around out there that are medically accepted. The old one that I go by is 10 to 30 milligrams per kilogram of bird, twice daily (written: 10-30 mg/kg, BID) but there's also a 20 to 50 milligram per kilogram of bird, once daily (written: 20-50 mg/kg, SID). In all likelihood, your bird is somewhere under a half of a kilogram so you've given him a more than adequate dose at this point. 

Now's a good time to start working on getting some puppy or cat food bits down him as well. That lesion is going to take some time to go down, pure and simple. As in: "days". Therefore, feeding is something that we're going to have to start doing, sooner or later. Do you actually have dry cat food that you could make into small enough pellets to get down his throat?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Honestly, the safest thing to do is tube feeding but that's going to require that you get some special tubing. Do you have a Lowe's or a Home Depot close by? There is a type of electrical heat shrink tubing that you can buy in a package for a couple of bucks. If you can grind the cat food into real fine stuff, you can probably tube it in with a syringe with the tubing mounted on it. Normally we use a product like Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula but since you're low on cash, we could improvise by grinding up cat food and soaking it for a bit.

I'll go get links to tube-feeding and the story about the dove.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is something of the story of Reti's little canker dove, I think:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14444

I think that bird's name is "Lucky" and here's a link to a picture:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2079568370073664377tcveOK

Here's a link to a tube-feeding explanation, along with the details on the equipment (and pictures):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235

Pidgey

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i am going to mush up cat food and try to give it to him, also, i am going to try and steal some "nutrical" at a pet store tomorrow. just hope i dont get caught!!
i'll update you soon


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, don't go steal anything! And what in the world is "nutrical" anyhow?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

on that post someone said it is a liquid nutrient, for birds. i gave him 2 syringes full of mushed up watery cat food, is this enough for now???


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi,

I know your heart is in the right place, but I agree with Pidgey, please don't steal anything. There are other ways of getting calories into this bird, Nutrical is mostly heavy corn syrup with cod liver oil and vitamins added. What size syringe are you using, how many CC's, and was the syringe full? Did tube feed him or slowly feed at the side/into him mouth?

All the best,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

1.0 cc
its a small syringe, it starts at .1cc and goes up to .9 cc then 1.0 cc is full.
and it was full both times. is there anything else i can do then?? i of course dont want to steal anything at all, but i dont know if what im doing is enough. i broke off the actual metal tip, and there is the small part at the end of syringe, i stuck that down the back of his throat and pushed food in a little at a time. he is drinking water if i put the cup in front of him, and he has to stick his head in far to get any, his tongue is working, but his eye is still closed, when i get it a little wet it starts to open again but then closes as it dries. his poop is green, bright green and a lot of it too.

anything else you can think of would be greatly appreciated.

was that enough food, how often should i do this???

you guys are a life saver, literally.
so nutrical isnt needed??? what else, if anything, should i do????


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, the cat food will do just fine for now. As to how much, you'll have to answer Jazaroo's basic question of how much was it that you actually fed the bird. It might be just as well to say how many actual dry pellets it was comprised of. Another consideration for this bird in particular is that the canker swelling will be partially crowding the airway, which is a slit in the bottom side of the throat, behind the tongue. You need to be real careful giving him food so that he doesn't aspirate food into that hole. If he does, he can die quickly kinda' like drowning, or more slowly of aspiration pneumonia. So, that's something we really want to avoid. That's why I suggested getting a tube. If you thought you could slide dried peas down past that hole, I'd be just as inclined to advise you to try that instead. It's going to be awhile before that opens up (hopefully only a day or two) and then we'll all be breathing easier on this one but until then, we need to be very, very careful.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You had already answered while I was typing so all you need to do is answer about how much it was in dry food terms. If the bird is mostly not moving and kept that way, he obviously won't need as much as if he were flying around. Realistically, though, I'd expect that you'd need to get about 15 to 30 dry pellets down him per day. Anything is something, at this point. If you can keep him warm with a heat lamp, it might go a long way to helping him out. He'll try to start eating for himself as soon as the swelling goes down but we just can't wait for that.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

it was probably 5 or 10 pellets,
how can i be sure not to get it into his airway if i cant open his beak that far??? is there something else i should do to make sure i dont get it into his airway? i cant open the beak far at all.

god, now im freaking out thinking i could of,
i saw the pics of tube feeding and i think i would be the one to die if i tried it.

i know you said 10 or 20 pellets of cat food, but i figured a little for now would be ok.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi,

1cc x 2 is not going to be enough, when they are tube fed it is usually somewhere between 20-30ccs' 2-3 three times a day, but at least it's a start. Please add some honey to the water you are using for more energy and calories.

I know you are doing you best, but the dangers that Pidgey mentions about food aspiration are very real and sticking the syringe at the back of his mouth is very close to where their breathing hole is. I myself would feel more comfortable if you feed him a little at the side of him mouth and let him swallow as he sees fit, or better yet, please have another look at the Youtube link I provided showing what Pidgey is telling you to do, right now this would be the safest way, outside of "tubing", for you to feed this bird. You can use thawed room temp peas, or slightly warmed up under tap water, as well as the small soaked kibble.

Good luck,

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Be sure to soak the dog/cat food pellets until soft but not mushy. You need put only enough hot water to cover the pellets plus another inch or so above that.
Don't give it dry pellets.

You have basically given the pigeon 2 cc and adults could probably handle 30 cc at each feeding, 2-3 times per day. If the 1 cc syringe is all you have you would need to fill it many times to get enough food in the pigeon and that increases the risk of breaking off the canker and causing it to bleed plus a risk of aspirating him. Personally, I would stick with the soaked dog or cat food pellets about the size of pencil eraser or a bit larger. 

We use Nutrical but it is not essential that he get it now so please don't steal any. We only use it on malnourished pigeons to help put some weight on. Right now, all you want to do is keep this bird alive long enough for the Metronidazole to do its job.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

can i use canned peas or veggies???


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes, but stick with the peas.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let's establish some other things about this bird, while we're at it. You need to feel the keel bone--it's the long, blade-like bone running down the middle of the breast muscles. What we need to determine is if the bird has been starving for awhile. If this just happened recently and the bird's been well-fed to that point, he might be in pretty good shape and we won't worry about getting too much food down him for the moment. So, if you feel that section and the bone and breast muscles feel like a "U", he's well fed. If they feel more like a "V" then he's a bit lean. If it feels more like a "T" and you can literally hold the bird with that bone pinched between your thumb and fingers, then he's been starved for awhile.

Interestingly enough, it's usually not a good idea to overfeed an emaciated (thin and starved) bird as it can, quite literally, kill them. When they're in that condition, it's best not to give them 30 cc's at a shot. You'd do better to give them a couple and then do a little more some time later (like an hour) and slowly work up over a period of a few days. There's actually a science to that and I can point you to a webpage about it but it's a bit on the heavy side. For now, just see if you can determine how thin the bird is by way of feeling the keel.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, it sticks out well, and it is straight up and down, no u or v, AHHH!!!!!!!!! this is stressfull, i was going to take more pics but like and idiot i had it plugged in to my computer and the batteries died.
that will have to come later i guess.
ok, also, he seems to breathe fine, but do pigeons breathe deep when they sleep?? you see, im all afraid i got it into his airway now. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok, i tried to put a little mushed up stuff in his mouth, but he wont eat it, and the solid wet PIECE of kibble he just freaked out and shook out when i put it in.
if i give him sugar water with salt or honey will that keep him for a few days while the medicine kicks in??
i just dont see any other way to feed this guy, and theres no way i could tube feed, im having a heart attack now as it is.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I hate to tell you that tube-feeding is about as easy as it gets and if it were me, I'd be having a heart attack the way you're having to do it.

Realistically, if he swallowed it okay, then as long as he's got an idea what you're doing and gets ready for it, he can probably manage it okay. The hard part is the realization that this is just how it's got to be for now. You may just have to face that fact. It sounds like he's too thin (which I rather expected, actually) and that we can't let him go 'for a few days' waiting for the lesion to decrease enough for him to start eating on his own.

So, it's going to be the hard way. If you fed him like you did and it worked and he didn't sneeze, cough violently and that kind of thing then if you go easy and he's working with you, I'd go ahead and do it that way. The deal is, it's a "catch-22" (damned if you do and damned if you don't).

So, how do you feel about giving him some more just like you did?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi,

I know this is all pretty stressful for you, but please try again. Try smaller pieces and have a look again at the Youtube link, see how the head is gently controlled so the bird can not shake it out, but has to swallow, head tilted slightly back. It would be very hard to hurt the bird feeding it this way, so don't stress about that.

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, he is passed out tired, i will try to feed him more in a few hours...i will just put a little towards the back of his throat at a time.

ok, tube feeding, how can you know you arent going in his airway for sure?? especially if you cant see the back of the throat??
so i get the tube down (lets just play pretend for a minute), how do i know, before i start pumping, that it is in his tummy???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you never actually get to "the tummy" but that's of no import.

If the tube is clean and you stick it in, you can tell it's not down the wrong tube because he won't be choking on it--that's just about a dead-giveaway. However, I've been tubing them for years and as long as you're sticking the tube down fairly straight inline with the beak, it's not going to go down the airway because the airway opens at right angles to it. It does work a bit better if you're crossing FROM his bad side but that might not be possible here. As such, you'd just push it down about an inch until it seems to want to stop (due to friction), pull it up just a tad and then go down a little further. That helps spread the saliva for lubrication. If you pre-lube the tube with oil it'll certainly go down easier but then you have a little fun getting the oil off. Also, if you were to go down the wrong pipe, it'd leave stuff in the trachea that you wouldn't want. So, I do it simply wetted and give the bird a few seconds to show me that it's breathing okay and then I pump it in. If you get to doing that, it'd be nice to get a larger syringe. With a 1 cc syringe, you're going to be an expert after one full feeding.

When you say he's "passed out tired", what do you mean?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

he was walking around a little, and when i went in he was sleeping, i was pretty quiet though. he just doesnt seem alert all the time, but he has moments (mostly when i take him out and give him water) where he walks around a LITTLE bit. i am going to try to get some money to get the tube feeding stuff tomorrow, and batteries to take more pics.
where do i find a big syringe like that??
i saw on the pics f the supplies smaller syringes, what are those for???

i will be gone in the morning and back around 12 or 1 and we will go over how he is then, my neighbor is coming to watch him then

thanks so much for helping me

im so torn as to keep him a few days to see how he does or try to take him somewhere, which i dont even know if that is possible, my friend with a car flaked on me, so i dont know. and anywhere close pretty much said they put them down

thanks again for hanging in there again, just please everyone, if you pray, pray for this little guy really really hard

i appreciate it


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, don't worry--we will be. If he's feeling rough (and he oughta' be) he should get as much rest as possible. Some of the things you can watch for to know he's on the mend are preening, laying around kinda' on one side with the low wing sorta' propped. You're probably not going to be seeing that for quite awhile. Tonight should really tell how it's going to go. If he's feeling a little better tomorrow, you might very well be able to see it.

Different sized syringes are for different things but mostly for feeding different sized birds in that picture. The smallest ones are used for metering out special medications but I can't remember which sizes are shown on that picture that you're referring to. Anyhow, I got the biggest ones at a feed store (for giving large animals shots) but I don't know where you'd get them.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, you might be able to beg a vet's office for one of those. It'd be worth a try.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i fed him about half a syring full of the mash. i just really think i am going to get it in his airway,if i got the pedialyte or nutralight could i substitiute that for food for a couple days?? is there anything i could use liquid whys, ANYTHING AT ALL, that i could use for a couple days to substitute food for???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the good thing about solid food is that it doesn't burden the kidneys while breaking down more slowly to make for a long, level energy release. Sugary liquids are great for a fast pick-me-up but not that good for the long haul. He really needs some solid food (even if it's mashed up and watered down a bit). Hopefully tomorrow you'll see a bit of improvement. It's one of those deals where there are no guarantees and all you can do is the best that you can do. Even if the swelling goes down, it might be quite awhile before the function of the jaw returns. You ought to ask Reti about that.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It took Lucky Dove a few weeks before she could move her jaw again.
Eventaully she ended up with a scissored beak, only slightly, but she has to eat out of a deep bowl to be able to pick up seeds. Because of her scissored beak, I guess the upper beak keeps growning and needs trimming every once in a while.
Another thing, she can't preen effectively, so her feathers are quite a mess.
Otherwise she is doing great

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*please look at these pics*

http://www.msnusers.com/hurtpigeon/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2

that is the address above for another pic, please look at it becauise i think it might be more serious than we think

i am having trouble attaching a pic to a post for some reason

ok, i think i just uploaded it, but just in case i left the address


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

More serious than we think? Believe me, we do know how serious it is. We've been trying just to save his life and don't particularly believe that he'll ever be "releasable". He will probably end up as a lifelong pet for you or somebody. When we saw the original pictures, we could easily guess at how far the disease had likely progressed.

The medication is the same (and it's time for you to give him another dose, by the way) and the prognosis is the same as yesterday--"guarded". However, it's good to see him standing the way that he is because it means we've still got a chance to save his life.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

However, I don't think that you should let him have the cigars in that box no matter how much he begs, though.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

lol, he likes that cigar box, thats for sure!!
ok, the tufts vetrinary school told me if he isnt releasable they would put him to sleep, NOT give him back to me, and thats IF i could get out there. the lady asked me if i would like being in a closet for the rest of my life. really, i am having an emotional breakdown because of this, and people just seem to rub it in it seems. one lady i sent the pics to and she's going to show them to a vet.
ok, on the eye that is closed, it is a little swollen underneath and is yellow, do you think it could be an abcess?? god, that scares me. so you guys have seen the beak that crooked from canker?? doesnt it look like his whole lower jaw is out of line though????
he tried to eat bread today, but cant pick it up. Reti told me i could use baby formula so i am going to beg the guy i know that works at the store down the street to lend me some, as i would rather give him that than tube feed in his condition.
oh, i just hope i am doing the right thing here.

thanks you guys////


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll tell you another thing: it's very unlikely that anyone of the group of folks that you might have given the bird to would have gone the distance for him instead of putting him to sleep. YOU are, for better or worse, probably the only chance this bird has. And as such, since you've come to us, we're trying to help you the best we know how with your available resources. You're doing pretty good so far but it's still a crapshoot whether he lives or dies, and if he lives, what the consequences will be.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Any chance of getting a side shot of the eye to get a better look at it?

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As it stands, he may lose that right eye (it's very likely that he's already lost the vision out of it). If you can actually see that the eye itself is turning yellow, then we probably need to get a protective topical ophthalmic ointment for it like Terramycin or "Neo-Poly-Bac". That's something that you may be able to get from a pet store or a vet, either one.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, we have seen far worse beak displacements due to canker. In your bird's case, it's almost like the entire beak is shifted to the left (the bird's left). Fairly often, the upper and lower beaks point in different directions altogether. There have been some really, really, really bad ones compared to this although this is definitely life threatening.

As to the quality of life of captive birds, there are a great deal of stories on this board of birds who are unreleasable who have become wonderful members of their families. Many of us have plenty of them to this day, in fact. If you want to know what quality of life a marred pigeon can have and how it can be made to happen, this is definitely the forum to come to. We don't quit.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Stories of pigeons with "handicaps":

Unie's Story

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10825

Part I & II of Mr. Squeaks:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10194

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10195

Bernie's Story (not on this forum but his "parents" used to be):

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/pigeons/BerniePijStory.html

There are many, many, many more but that ought to give you some idea.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

http://www.msnusers.com/hurtpigeon/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3

AGAIN, pics wont post, so here is the address to the eye above

ok, also, the vet looked at pics and said he looks real bad and that most likely his tissue is ruined, and that the most humane thing to do would be to put him to sleep,
any thoughts on this, im so torn on this. i dont want him to suffer so i am really thinking about it, they gave me a site on canker and the birds there look not nearly as bad as mine, here it is
http://www.albertaclassic.net/trichomonas/trichomonas.php

let me know what you think about euthanizing


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We don't, usually, because we've seen too many birds come back from being so bad off that there wasn't any way that they could possibly come back. But they did. I think your bird has a chance, based on what I've seen.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here is a link to a story about a bird that I still have that was hurt pretty bad. It took two months to get that bird back to being normal (and some hard work) but we did it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

Admittedly, that wasn't canker but it was pretty doggone bad. I can guarantee you that the rehabilitation was not comfortable for the bird. And I can also unequivocally guarantee you that the bird preferred the pain to being put to sleep. To this very day.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you are going through this emotional rollercoaster, but it is only natural because you care.
I have put only one bird to sleep in the past five years since I am rehabbing and that was only beause letting him live would prolong his suffering for another day or two. There was nothing that could have been done.
All of my other birds with canker have survived and trust me, I have too had some pretty hopeless cases.

When Lucky Dove came to me, she looked almost like your little one, the pics posted are a week after treatment.
The beak was hanging low and she couldn't eat, drink, walk.
She recovered amazingly with only a minor handicap. So, there is hope for your guy.
Even if the eye never regains sight, he still can live a happy indoors life. Many of us have blind pigeons including me.
It is not easy to care for a little sick creature. It is hard work, sleepless nights, too many emotions.

Please continue his medications and if possible add some Cipro to his regimen.
I am saying this, because I had a bird once that after the canker healed it left a hole inside his skull, below the eye and he developed an abscess with E.coli. He also healed well and is living now somewhere in California.
Pigeons are very hardy animals, you'll be amazed the accidents and illnesses they survive.
Recently only my vet wanted to put to sleep three of them and they all survived and are happy and healthy.

Keep your bird warm. Give him his meds on time and the full dose and keep him well hydrated and fed.
The puppy or cat chow should be ok for now to get some nutrition in him. The baby bird formula is good too if you can get some.
I fed Lucky dove for about a month or even more before she could eat on her own and I would have done it for the rest of her life if necessary.
So, please don't give up on him.

I have one question, in the pic his right side seems vet, did you wash him, or did he spit up his foood/water?

Hang in there, you're doing great.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

he sticks his whole head in to drink so it drips all over, and his eye i have been getting wet as his eye is normal looking underneath but it keeps drying out and drying shut. i am giving him baby formula for now. cipro, you dont have any on hand i suppose?? i have exhausted all of my resources as it is and i dont want to ask my friend to call in something as he already broke many laws doing the flagyl.
so, was your dove worse than mine???

i have been giving him about 50-60 mg (to account for it being half drooled out) every 12 hours, i crush it them sprinkle it in mouth and then spray a little water in there. in a few days i might try the tube feeding, i get money on saturday, but if i do SOMEONE is going to have to talk to me via phone or i will die, literally. we'll see how he does.
so, baby formula should keep him ok?? he is drinking just a few swallows here and there. he tried to eat but it didnt happen earlier. he cant swallow and his beak wont open far at all. i tried a wet cat food pellet but it got stuck and he was shaking it out crazily so took it out.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ps, thanks for keeping up the hope, i am really down about this and have skipped class, work and everything for him. and it just sucks when people say there is no hope. its sad

thanks you guys, you rock!!!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

As Pidgey says it's a crap shoot with no guarantees, but you are giving this guy a fighting chance and that's what we do at this forum.

Good luck,

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

does anyone know if he could have something that can be given to my cat???
or to me???? but especially anything that can be givent o my kitty....


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I wouldn't worry about anything being transmitted to you or your cat. But still keep him isolated, stress free and wash your hands after handling him.
I am not sure I have Cipro, or I might? Let me go and check and I will get back to you on this.
Also, make sure he does get enough of the Flagyl down, it needs to get into his system.
As for feeding, he needs to eat. Let the puppy or cat chow soak and it will become liquid enough to syringe down his throat.
I will go and check for Cipro.

I think Lucky was almost as bad as your birdie. He couldn't eat either and was shaking his head afer feedings. 


Reti


Great, I have one 500mg. Cipro.tablet.
PM me your address and I will put it in the mail tomorrow. Let me know if you need more Flagyl.
I will also send you some formula.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

reti, you have to erase some messages, i cant send you anything, your box is full


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

xxmoxiexx said:


> reti, you have to erase some messages, i cant send you anything, your box is full



ok, will go and do now.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, he seems weaker today. not better like i was hoping but luckily help is on the way, so he is getting some more medicine and some stuff for tube feeding, which is like do or die now so i have to do it. his eye looks a little worse, just a little pus around, or it COULD BE formula as he dunks his whole head in to drink and dribbles all over!!! hence the wetness in pic, which is now all stickiness.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Go ahead and gently clean him off with a warm, moist paper towel or cloth. Make sure that he's especially warm so that he doesn't have to burn any calories at this point staying warm. We're going to back off on the medication till he's only getting 10 milligrams per day. And let's try to get a little more actual cat food mash down him. Be as gentle as possible and let him get as much rest as he can.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I want you to read this webpage carefully and consider it. There's a mathematical formula and I think we can consider him to be in the Category III protocol. This is a bit heavy and you're not going to have the fluids that she's talking about but we'll try to do the best we can with what we've got.

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Emaciation.html

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Meds and formula are on their way. You should get them tomorrow.
Since he is drinking water maybe you can put a few cat chows in the drinking water. They dissolve and so he gets some nutrition.
As Pidgey mentioned, keep him warm.
Lucky was going downhill for over week before hes tarted showing improvement.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In going over that emaciation protocol page, I've been trying to convert some of the factors for our purposes. There are some numbers that I or someone else will have to try and look up but I think for the moment I'm going to estimate the formula terms as 78.3 for the animal factor and I'm going to guess this guy's weight at 150 grams or 0.15 kilograms. I'm also going to guess we're going to start with a 1.5 factor on this bird.

That should get us to a 78.3 x (0.15)^.75 x 1.5 = 28.3 calories. (a kcal is equal to one (1) food calorie). The types of formulas that they're talking about are 1 (food) calorie to the milliliter. I'm trying to find information as to how many calories are in mixed Kaytee. If anyone can figure that out, please let us know. I'm going to guess that there's a rough equivalence between dry Kaytee powder and dried peas & grains so that'd be about 130 calories to the ounce on a dry basis.

Absolutely shooting from the hip, I'd give him 5 milliliters (cc's) at a feeding and wait a few hours to see how he responds. I'd probably give him three feedings the first day to see how that goes and then start giving him the same but more often over a long, slow period. Without defining that, though, it's useless information to the person in the field with the bird in hand. So, let's hear it from folks who have experience bringing emaciated pigeons back from the brink: how did you do it?

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I send her Harrison's juvenile formula. It is more concentrated and I feed it to all sick and emaciated birds. That is what my vets recommend anyways.
For emaciated birds I start off with more watery formula four to five times a day, about 7-10cc's each time. The next day I make the formula a little thicker, same amount each time.
If all goes well, the third day I feed three times a day about 15-20cc's and the formula of thicker consistency.
After that I feed twice a day 20-30cc's for adults, sometimes more depending of the size of the pigeons (For Kings I give 35-40cc's) For youngsters I feed three times a day 20cc's.
I also give in between feedings High Potency pellets (Harrison's), that is if they can swallow.

Reti


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey I did a search and I came up with 471 Calories per 100 grams. This was in a cached hyper link and where this information is not currently available on an live link. Hope this helps.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

From what I gather, this bird is pretty emaciated, probably about as bad as they get. We're not going to know the weight because there's no scale to measure it with so guessing is about all we've got. I've gotten a few over time that were pretty bad off and the system had shut down. Hopefully, since they're feeding this guy some formula and cat food mash, it won't have shut completely down yet.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

jazaroo said:


> Pidgey I did a search and I came up with 471 Calories per 100 grams. This was in a cached hyper link and where this information is not currently available on an live link. Hope this helps.
> 
> Ron


Does that mean 5 calories per dry gram? So, mixed 1 cc to 5 cc's of water (that's close to real), you'd get about 1 calorie per cc of mixed formula, right?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, we pretty much do it the way Reti described but for the first day I think 5 cc 3 x day would be the way to go then maybe increase the volume by about 2 cc per feeding each time the next day.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes, I believe dry grams. So I get 4.71 calories per dry gram, never really measured how much water I add, but at 1 part KT to 2 to 3 parts water, I come up with 1.2 - 1.6 calories per cc. This could be boosted with a little honey, I am a great beliver in the healing power of honey.

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Amazing that we've never worked this out scientifically before. I have to admit that every time I read that webpage that I linked, I've always wanted to work on it but just never have. It'd be REAL nice to know, though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I overfed one that was emaciated once and it took a week but he finally died. At least, I think I overfed him. He certainly wouldn't process much of anything through. I've never forgotten that little fella'.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Pidgey, we pretty much do it the way Reti described but for the first day I think 5 cc 3 x day would be the way to go then maybe increase the volume by about 2 cc per feeding each time the next day.



Maggie, I feed them those quantities depending on the age and size.
Of course the smaller the bird the less I feed. For 3-4-5 weeks old, I don't feed moe than 5cc's the first time.
Lately I had mostly Kings arriving, those are big birds, the emaciated ones can be around 400gr.
Of course I always watch the poops. If there are none, I don't feed until I have some, but give water instead at least until I have urine. Actually I don't feed until I see urine and only after that I start feeding.

So, generally I go after my gut feeling. It is hard to generalize a feeding regimen, it all depends how far they are gone, how old they are and how much they weight.
A general rule for me is to start out with more liquid formulas and smaller amounts more frecvent feedings.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*hey, me again...*

.... i fell asleep, more like passed out, i am exhausted with everything going on. i havent been sleeping good.
ok, what im wondering is about the meds, i dont know if he has been getting a lot of it or not. his baby tongue tries to swallow, but when i give the meds he shakes his head after and drinks water, which i think washes a lot out of his mouth, i know he's been getting some but i dont know how much, and i dont know what i should give him with the tube feeding thing and how much to decrease and when???


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

hey, i just gave him 1cc of mushed up food. thanks for saying something because im so scared to do it that i need that little push.
ok, he's not drinking water or formula so much, barely at all. you think he's just a little worse before he gets better??
ok, since i cant open his beak that far, facing his front, is a hole to my left of the canker, like a crescent moon. so i cannot see whether i am going into airway or not. how do i know where i am going if all i see is the crescent moon of a hole??? 
he is so much weaker right now too. it breaks my heart. 

wish good thoughts upon him

oh yea, he is drinking enfamil right now, not kaytees but i thought that was ok??? i couldnt get to a bigger store at that moment and when i sent fiend off to get it they didnt have so he just got this instead....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

how old do you think my guy is, rough guess?? i know someone said maybe a month, but should this be factored into his feeding tomorrow???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

jazaroo said:


> Yes, I believe dry grams. So I get 4.71 calories per dry gram, never really measured how much water I add, but at 1 part KT to 2 to 3 parts water, I come up with 1.2 - 1.6 calories per cc. This could be boosted with a little honey, I am a great beliver in the healing power of honey.
> 
> Ron


Sorry, Jaz, I didn't notice this post because it came in just before I'd posted again. Anyhow, it's a bit confusing (figuring out the actual calories per cc of mixture) due to the volume of the powder being fluffed, instead of fairly solid. So, the best way that I could theoretically determine was to imagine the Kaytee mixed on a weight basis (since water's 1 gram to the cc) and the Kaytee chart says that at 1 part Kaytee to 2-3 parts water (volume basis), it equals out to 16-20% Kaytee to 80-84% water on the weight basis. As such, it remains to determine the volumetric equivalence of the slurry but I'd imagined it to be about equal volumetrically to the volume of its total weight in water. That's clear as mud, isn't it? 

Let's say that we use 1 gram of Kaytee and then the 2 parts of water (however much volume it takes to make one gram of Kaytee--I'll measure that tonight) and get the 20% Kaytee to 80% water, weight basis. Since the Kaytee is 1 gram = 20%, we can take 1 gram / 0.2 (the weight fraction) and get 5 grams as the total weight of the Kaytee and water slurry. If we assume that the specific gravity of that slurry is close to water, then it's going to take up about 5 cc's of physical space. In reality, it's probably going to be a bit heavier, which will mean that it'll be a tad less than 5 cc's which will put us nearer to the 1 cc equals 1 calorie.

Anyway, I'll actually try very precisely to measure out 1 pure gram of Kaytee this evening and see how that measures up in teaspoons (something usable, anyhow) and then also mix it at 1:2 and 1:3 and see what quantities we get in the syringe. Incidentally, if we figure by the calculator what the specific gravity of the dry product is using the numbers provided in the instructions, it comes out to a specific gravity of 0.56 in the powdered form. So, a level teaspoon which is normally 5 milliliters of water should actually be about 2.8 grams of Kaytee. That would mean that to get a delivered quantity of 5 milliliters of Kaytee slurry to the bird, we'd want to mix about 1 teaspoon of water with about 1/3 teaspoon of Kaytee.

I rarely mix a batch that small and thinking about it, I'd just as soon dump the powder and the water into the back of the syringe and then stir or shake it in the syringe. My usual way was to mix it by eye (a somewhat larger quantity) and then use what I needed and dump the rest down the drain. Hmm...

Well, I'll play with it tonight and come up with a workable recipe for this bird and post it.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I also send you Spartrix, four tablets. When you get the package tomorrow give him one tablet down his throat, whole. You can wet it a bit so it slides down easier. If that doesn't work, break it in half but give both halfs. Repeat in 24 hours.
At least you will know he will get the whole dose.
The Cipro you will have to dissolve in water, about 35cc's, shake it well and give him 0.15cc. Keep it refrigerated and shake well before each use- twice a day.
I send you two syringes measuring in cc's so you can measure what you are giving. The syringes are 1cc each.
The medicine bottle I send you, if you remove the red cap the tip of the syringe fits right on it, hold the bottle upside down and draw the amount of Cipro you need (0.15cc).

The formula, dissolve in warm water until it is not too fluid, not too thick, you'll figure it. One teaspoon of formula needs about three or four of water.
Keep the Cipro and formula refrigerated.

The eye ointmen you have to apply twice a day after cleaning the area with a moist cloth or papertowel.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti said:


> Maggie, I feed them those quantities depending on the age and size.
> Of course the smaller the bird the less I feed. For 3-4-5 weeks old, I don't feed moe than 5cc's the first time.
> Lately I had mostly Kings arriving, those are big birds, the emaciated ones can be around 400gr.
> Of course I always watch the poops. If there are none, I don't feed until I have some, but give water instead at least until I have urine. Actually I don't feed until I see urine and only after that I start feeding.
> ...


He Reti, we are on the same page because I do pretty much the same way. I was told a long time ago never to feed one until you see them poop and had them warm. This is a good, informative thread.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In answer to your query, Raina, he's old enough to be flying. As such, he'd normally be in the thickest mixture class. I don't know if you read through all the posts this afternoon that have been dealing with how much to give him, but it's going to be based on some guess of his weight, some on experience, some on hope and some on dumb luck (we're praying for that). At this point, we're really hoping that he makes the night and the next morning and that everything arrives on time.

When the stuff gets there, food, tube, syringe and all, prepare the 20 milliliter syringe by installing one of the feeding tubes on by sliding the larger end on the nozzle firmly. The other end is rounded just a little bit, if you'll look at it. Mix a heaping 1/4 teaspoonful into a small cup with one teaspoonful of warm water thoroughly. Then, pull the plunger out, spoon the mixture into it and carefully put the plunger back in (point it upward over the sink and try to tap the stuff back down from the hole). Get all the air out until it's a pure liquid. Then clean all the formula off of the tube.

Since your bird can't open his beak very far this is going to be real simple--you just push the tube straight in (gotta' hold his head and neck extended from the body). Study those pictures in that tube-feeding link I gave you. The tubing's actually too soft to punch a hole (which is good!) but you may feel some resistance. When you do, just pull it back a tiny bit and then go forward again. Just keep it in line with his neck (which should be somewhat straight with his head) and you really can't get it in his airway. However, to calm your nerves always give it a few seconds when it's down in to observe the bird for any truly adverse reaction. It'll go down almost the length of the entire tube without any real difficulty but you don't have to push it in that far. When everything's good, just squeeze it in steadily but not so fast that you blow the tubing off the nozzle (messy) and then pull it right out. Then we wait for a few hours and see how he feels.

I may revise that recipe sometime tonight when I play with it in which case check back tomorrow before you feed him anything. We might go with more water or less powder.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey your calculations seem right to me. As I said I just usually throw some in a small glass dish and mix in hot water until it I get to a consistency I am happy with. I let it sit for a while to let the Kaytee absorb the water in and then add a little more water to make any final adjustments. Did a search, honey has 3 calories per gram. I did a test and when you add 1 teaspoon of honey to one teaspoon of water it is still very water like, but will really boost the amount of calories per mL.

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's how I usually do it, too, Jaz. Since we're going scientific on the emaciation protocol on this thread, I started working the numbers in earnest.

Read that emaciation page--there was something down the way about high glucose solutions but I don't remember quite what it was or how it would apply to honey. Check that out when you get a chance.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*ok, freaking out here, again!!!*

ok, i read some of that mathematical chart for starved birds. it says on there to NOT give them anything with iron if they have bacterial infections or something as the bacteria thrive in iron and it might make it so antibiotics dont work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
can you guys read that part??? here is the address... its under the complications to starvation part, then the anemia part after that.

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Emaciation.html 

and pidgey, dont worry i will check everything again and i WILL get in touch with you, thanks so much.....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, reti, what about the flagyl?? im just wondering if i should keep it at 25 mg for a day so i at least know for one day he was getting the right amount???
any thoughts???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I think you can back off on the Flagyl by now. Too much of it does seem to bother them a bit. If this bird weighs in the 200 gram class, he'd need about anywhere from 10 to 25 milligrams in a day.

As to iron, we're kinda' stuck. I doubt there's an excessive amount of iron in the formula (only what they need) and right now he needs the formula more than anything. You've got drugs coming that could take on an infection so let's not worry about that right now. We're kinda' out of options here, Raina. This bird doesn't have the resources to last much longer without this food.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, by the way, the mixture of the heaping quarter-teaspoon with one teaspoon of water to make 5 milliliters works just right. It's a tad to the thin but I think that's a good idea in this case. A heaping quarter teaspoon weighs in at about a gram, give-or-take depending on how much you heap it. So, go with that and get it ready the moment you get it (but only if you're prepared to give it right then).

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

xxmoxiexx said:


> oh yea, he is drinking *enfamil* right now, not kaytees but i thought that was ok??? i couldnt get to a bigger store at that moment and when i sent fiend off to get it they didnt have so he just got this instead....


Hi Pidgey and everyone,

I've stayed out of this one because all of you know way more than I do about these things but, I was wondering if any of you had noticed that moxie seems to be feeding formula for *human* babies at this time and is this okay??? Enfamil is a brand name of human baby formula.

Thanks
Linda

PS....I think that's also why moxie got so panicked over Iron.....most of the human baby formulas are fortified with iron.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I did notice that. I don't have any personal experience with that but I think Reti suggested it earlier. On that page about emaciation, they definitely use human tube feeding formulas. The only thing that I worried about was that it said something about milk.

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thanks Pidgey...I didn't notice that Reti had suggested it earlier and just wanted to point it out, just in case.  

Linda


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, just went back and can't find where she did unless it was in a PM or something. Does anyone out there know if this is a problem or is an acceptable alternative in a pinch? Terry?

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Pidgey,

There are so many infant formulas on the market....some are milk based, some are soy or meat based, some are fortified with iron, some are low iron...

Don't know if this helps or not, but I found this:

"Let's take a close look at Enfamil and see what's really in it. From Mead Johnson's own website, here is the ingredient list for Enfamil: [24]

Per 5 Fl Oz: Protein 2.5 g; Fat 5.1 g; Carbohydrate 11 g; Water 133 g; Linoleic Acid 860 mg; Vitamin A 300 IU; Vitamin D 60 IU; Vitamin E 2 IU; Vitamin K 8 mcg; Thiamin (Vitamin B1) 80 mcg; Riboflavin (Vitamin B2) 140 mcg; Vitamin B6 60 mcg; Vitamin B12 0.3 mcg; Niacin 1000 mcg; Folic Acid (Folacin) 16 mcg; Pantothenic Acid 500 mcg; Biotin 3 mcg; Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 12 mg; Choline 12 mg; Inositol 6 mg; Calcium 78 mg; Phosphorus 53 mg; Magnesium 8 mg; Iron 1.8 mg; Zinc 1 mg; Manganese 15 mcg; Copper 75 mcg; Iodine 10 mcg; Selenium 2.8 mcg; Sodium 40 mg; Potassium 108 mg; Chloride 75 mg; Water; Nonfat Milk; Vegetable Oil (Palm Olein; Soy; Coconut; High Oleic Sunflower Oils); Lactose; Rice Starch; Maltodextrin; Mono- and Diglycerides; Soy Lecithin; Carrageenan; Less Than 1%: Vitamin A Palmitate; Vitamin D3; Vitamin E Acetate; Vitamin K1; Thiamin Hydrochloride; Vitamin B6 Hydrochloride; Niacinamide; Calcium Pantothenate; Choline Chloride; Ferrous Sulfate; Zinc Sulfate; Manganese Sulfate; Cupric Sulfate; Sodium Selenite; Taurine"

From this website:
http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.php?page=articles/charlie.php



Linda


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Pidgey, I read the page again. It seems to be saying that in the rehydration phase not to add glucose to any rehydration fluid to boost/add calories as this makes a hypertonic solution which may complicate a dehydration situation. 

I did a search for the Ultracal and Nutracal two food supplements they recommend using, one has Maltodextrin and the other corn syrup added, so I don't see a problem trying to boost calories in the food part if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if I am off base.

Ron


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Rehabbers .. please see pages 10-12 here: http://www.inaturenet.org/otherstatic/files/veterinary guide edited.pdf

Will try to find more info and post in a bit. I know there is some very relevant stuff that I have or have seen .. just have to find it.

I have seen many a time on the WLREHAB list where a bird rehabber would use Ensure for an emaciated bird.

OK just had a quick look and don't have the materials at hand. I will have to try to find my IWRC Fluid Therapy manual .. I'm pretty
sure that is where the info is that I'm thinking of. Sorry not to be of much help here. As Ron posted, it is all about hypertonic vs.
hypotonic.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks, Terry. This is great info.

I had no idea ide what Emfanil is. Someone recommended once to give starved birds baby cereal, which I have used, sometimes with the Harrison's formula. I think it is easily digested. We don't have that now, so most important is to get into him something. This poor bird is starving.

Reti


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

This helped me:

A *Hypertonic *solution contains a higher concentration of electrolytes than that found in body cells. If such a solution is allowed to enter the blood stream, the osmotic pressure difference between the blood and the cells will cause water to flow out of the cells, which will then shrink. This may cause serious harm, or even be fatal. Consequently, it is essential when blood transfusions are given, or blood replacement products are used, that the electrolyte concentration in the material to be given to a patient matches that of the body. 

A *Hypotonic *solution is one in which the concentration of electrolyte is below that in cells. In this situation osmotic pressure leads to the migration of water into the cells, in an attempt to equalize the electrolyte concentration inside and outside the cell walls. If the difference in concentration is significant, the cell walls may rupture, leading to the death of the cell. Consequently, it is vital that the electrolyte concentration of liquids used during blood transfusions be matched to that in cells. 

Ron


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

he's dead. i went in there this morning and he wasnt moving or breathing and he was sitting exactly as i found him, i feel like the biggest asshole on the whole planet right now. i really really hate myself right now for not putting him to sleep. i was really hoping he had a chance. poor poor baby.

was i doing something wrong. i really should of gone and stole the stupid retarded feeding tube for him. now everything everyone told me from all these places that was so damn negative is just making me feel worse...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

as in all the so called animal rescue league's


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm sad to hear that and was dreading the possibility. It's very difficult to say what he actually died of. I had thought that he was a little perkier earlier and that gave me some hope, enough to continue on and to try. I doubt very much that he was suffering at the last, he was probably in too much of a daze to know so it was probably a peaceful passing.

It is a fact of this kind of thing that there can be more going wrong than you know and you sometimes just have to take your best shot and hope for the best. Who knows how many people walked by that bird and never saw him or cared. They are more dead than he is. It's no use feeling ill of those others who would have chosen to take the easy way out. Sometimes they've been there, done that and have hardened their hearts in an effort to not feel the pain that you're feeling now. While that might seem like a strength, it is also a great loss--a loss of soul and heart and the joy of giving. Many of us have consciously chosen to keep on trying and giving in an effort to save ourselves from that coldness because it's a fate worse than death.

Take some time to grieve, as we will also, and find a way to make his life have meaning for yourself and for those whom you will touch tomorrow.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i hope it was. it looked like he just passed out asleep and probably passed then. i'm going to bury him in a park where all the other pidgey's go. this is just so so sad, im so devastated, as i knew i would be. i know what you are saying but i wanted my life to have meaning for him more than anything else. i will send everyone their stuff back as soon as i get some money together next week.
i really really appreciate everyone here. at least i know more about them so when i find another hurt pidgey i can help more. like i never knew if they were fluffed up they could be hurt, so i will definately check every bird i see like that.
i'm not going anywhere though, all the good stories here do help me so much.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Please do not be too hard on yourself as you grieve the loss of this bird, and we also grieve the loss of this bird with you. In his last hours it is important to know he had you, someone I believe loved him and I also believe realized was trying to truly help him. He passed in a warm loving environment, not feeling afraid and alone in a clinical environment and in the end this is what matters.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i did and do still love him, very very much. i have to go bury him right now. right across the street from my house where i have buried other pigeons i have found (those pigeons were already dead).. and the pigeons go there to eat..
you are right though jazaroo, how horrible that would of been being somewhere like that...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

xxmoxiexx said:


> this is just so so sad, im so devastated, as i knew i would be. i know what you are saying but i wanted my life to have meaning for him more than anything else.
> .


I'm so sorry to hear the bird passed away. Please remember that you DID give meaning to this birds life, you gave him attention, warmth, and hydration, that may have been all you could do if he was already in the later stages of dying.

Sending you comforting thoughts and healing prayers.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

thanks so much everyone. i always am so sensitive to the hardships of any animal. i cry when i READ about something bad in the paper or something. so as you can see it is very hard on me. as it would be on anyone like me or any of you in this situation. 
pidgey and reti, thank you both especially as you both went so far out of your way for this little guy. you guys keep up the work, it comforts me to know there is people that care so much. so many times i have felt like i am the only one with such a deep love and sympathy for any animals. but pigeons, well, i once was sitting with friends in a park and said that i loved pigeons and you should of seen the look on their faces, like i had just admitted to the jfk assasination or something. (even though im only 25, couldnt of happened) 

i am going to stay somewhere tonight and will be back tomorrow morning, i just cant be here right now. i need to get away to get my mind off of it for right now the pain is just too hard. 
really, you guys are so awesome. i will check in tomorrow


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## Bertie_Bud (Sep 9, 2006)

Hello:

I am very sad that your pidgeon rescue died, but I am very glad that you took the time and effort out to care for it. I totally understand what you mean when you say that ppl think you're crazy or stupid for caring so much about a pigeon. It's hard for me to walk past an injured pigeon or an orphaned one and to not care. It's in my nature, and I guess yours, to stop and make sure it's okay. I hope that you will not feel guilty about not putting it down. I took my last rescue to the Wildlife Rescue for them to care for since I couldn't get the proper medicine for it, and they put it down. I assure you that you would have felt just as bad hearing that it was put down as if you found it dead in your home. At least in your case, you know that you did your best and that it just didn't make it. In my case, I just feel guilt for taking it to the Wildlife Rescue and I keep wondering whether my rescue pigeon might have had a better chance with me. 

I hope that you will keep on caring for any pigeons that you find. I found another pigeon baby a few days ago, and I had to fight both my family and my boyfriend to bring it home to care for. I had to promise that I wouldn't bring home anymore rescues before they'd let me take this one home. It makes me very sad because I don't think it's right to let any animal die if you can do something for it. I wish more ppl were like the folks here on this page. 

Take care and don't be too hard on yourself. I'm glad that you hope to help other pigeons you find in the future. There's something wonderful about that.

Marie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry this sweetie didn't make it. Please don't be so hard on yourself, you did more than enough to try to help him and he knew it. They always know when someone tries to help them.
I know you're devastated now, but you gave him love, warmth and the feeling that someone loved him and cared for him.

Please don't send me anything back. Put it in the refrigerator, who knows, you might find another (hopefully not as sick) bird.

Thank you for all you did for him.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, understand how you feel. We know you did all you could and we thank you for your caring heart!

I SEND WARM COMFORTING HUGS TO HELP EASE YOUR HURT...


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

I am very sorry that the pigeon died.

You tried very hard and did your absolute best for this bird.

Unfortunately sometimes they are just too "far gone" to be helped and the best we can do is give them some warmth, love and kindness in their last hours - you did that so you should feel proud.

Next pigeon rescue - you'll know what to do or at least where to come for advice and hopefully a better outcome.

Tania xx


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

thanks so much everyone. i though about it a lot and it is so true, he died somewhere warm, at the very least. thanks so much for the support. i really am quite blown away at how people have helped so much, and cared so much on this site. you guys are the best.

just wanted to clear something up here on the thread though. Reti told me in a pm to get the kaytee exact formula, and i sent someone else to get it and they just got the other stuff. when i talked to the lady at tufts vet school and told her what i was giving she said that was fine for now but she WAS under the assumption that when i sent her the pics whatever she said to do would be the law, and she said to get him put down and i didnt. i hope that didnt have anything to do with his passing but right now im not sure.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, im wondering, is there a thread on here somewhere, or somewhere i can look that will tell you the subtle signs of a sick pigeon.
why im wondering is it would be great if next time i find one i could get him when he first gets sick, not when he is so sick that is obvious to someone as unfamiliar to pigeon disease/illness as me......

because sometimes if im not sure, and i'd just like to learn more about it...

thanks again everyone.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Catching a sick pigeon is often pretty tough--their fear of you will often drive them spend some of their precious remaining reserves. So, it's not the easiest thing to do. Sometimes, you have to use guile and cunning. It's for a good cause, though, so that's okay. Anyhow, just watch them alot and you'll start picking up on their behaviors enough that you can discern when they're not doing too well. A lot of the ones that I get are ones that just can't fly away. Sometimes they show up in the yard (since I feed a hundred pigeons a day here, that's not as rare as it is with other folk) and sometimes you see them in places where they congregate. Anytime a bird is standing with a humped back, is drooping a wing or has its eyes shut for extended periods, it's almost a dead giveaway.

Pidgey


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## JoAnne Guille (Jul 23, 2006)

*Dear Moxey*

I'm so sorry, my name is Jo (it's just short for JoAnne) when your heart has recovered enough please take a look at my thread (First posting from Canada....) my little hurt babies name is Petunia. I'm going to post new pictures soon and a little message from both of us.

Moxie you are a wonderfull, kind hearted, generous, loving person. Don't ever try to block that. Let the tears fall when they need to come, it will ease in time. Mark your little ones grave, maybe just a stone and remember them and this. Every living creature on this earth knows love and comfort. We may not be able to comunicate directly but indirectly your attempts to save your friends life was not a case of "extending the misery". Not at all. Your bird died yes but he (she) did not die in the cold unloved or uncomforted. (s)he just slowly fell asleep, warm and secure, unafraid. We offer that comfort to our own kind, do we not? That is what a Hospis (think I spelled it wrong) is. We don't shoot or inject terminally ill patients in our society. They go home to family or to somewhere with people around them to offer exactly what you did, comfort and love. Don't every give up Moxie...you look for those sick birds little critters etc. I have marked more graves than I really care to think about in my life (I am 52) everything form wild rabbits, baby birds that fell out of a nest, sick just like yours was Mom and Dad may have given them the boot but I took them in. I have had a much higher failure rate than success but I have had my successes as well (good greef I even nursed two chicken through some gastly intestinal disease that every farmer in the area said would die, with the aid of Pepto Bismal and mash rammed down their throats and I even splinted a chickens broken foot, my husband stepped on her foot wearing gumboots, uh..he was wearing the gumboots not the chicken ( yeah that was fun, chicken was in a little pen I made in the yard I'm up to my eyeballs working 3 part time jobs, raising two little children, hauling over 900 wheelbarrows full of clay, loam, horse manure etc (yes I counted) too raise the backyard enough to begin a garden, and I'm out diging up worms for this chicken with a broken foot who had a fondness for them) All three survived, we only had eight chickens to start with and all 8 eventually died of old age.

The point I'm trying to make Moxie is that you, as I, cannot heal or ease the suffering of the wounds and pain of the world. We can however offer love and comfort to all those human, birds, and animals that cross our path in our own little corner of the world. Keep going Moxie, everybody on this channel understands and will root you on and give YOU support and comfort for all your efforts. You keep and eye out, pretty soon you'll find those that need you will find you. Heck I still think if some critter is either Nuts or sick or injured it seems to find a way to my door.

As for those "so called" animal rescue leauges out there, yeah I heard it all too. One woman even went so far as to call me a monster, I called her a cold hearted *****, slammed the phone down and broke into tears. Petunia is just fine today, she is spoiled rotten, she loves me and I love her and thats that. Razzberries to all those who told me to "Put her down"! You'll find your "Petunia" one day or she or he will find you. And that one happy ending will more than make up for all the tears wept by all the little stone markers that you place along the way.................much love.....JO


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*ditto...dittto on what you said, JoAnne.*

Hi Jo,

I just want to thank you for adding such a wonderful insighful post.

Thank you for thoughtfully expressing your thoughts and comfort to our member xxmoxiexx.

You have taken the time to express what we all feel and believe in our hearts to be the absolute truth, and you have expressed it quite beautifully. 


...and YES...a big razzberry to anyone who ever tells you "to put 'em down"....especially without EVEN seeing the bird/animal in question.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

jo, thanks so much. i have been trying to not think of my pidgey for a while, but i know that is worse in the end if i just shove it down and forget about it. i just started crying so hard after reading your post. it is so hard to want to help so much and people just dont understand it. 
everyone basically said i told you so, or laughed at the fact of me trying to help a pigeon. like i was bringing it up as a joke or something. when really they think it's so funny/pathetic that anyone could care about a pigeon that much.
my therapist, at the beginning of all of this, told me to put him back outside to die in the sun and trees, but what it really would of been would be in a cold alley with a cat getting to it. she thinks of me doing this as doing more harm to myself than helping anything, but more harm would be done if i had walked away as i would not be able to stop thinking about it.
this is the only place i found help of any kind, and it was far above what i would of gotten anywhere else. i think of all the birds/animals i sent to those animal rescue leauges and i took their word for it when they told me that they couldnt do anything for it, they had to put it down, and i find this site, and see all sorts of people healing broken wings and such (i sent a seagull with a broken wing to this place, and they put him down, i called the next day to visit him, and he was dead)
it makes me even more angry because there isnt enough animal rescue places as it is, and now i find out the truth about them, i have such little faith in people as it is because of how they treat animals and these are people that are supposed to love animals??!!!
i always thought if i became a vet i would be broke because i wouldnt be able to say no to any animal, so do these people just become hardened?? 
or i guess it's the money, as usual...

thanks everyone, for listening to me rant...


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