# Archangel color id on some babies



## chinbunny

i don't have pictures yet. i will get them when I get time this weekend. I bred my copper andalusion cock bird to my bronze bar silver winged hen. The father/grandfather(she was line bred back to him) of the silver winged hen was a modena bronze wing/toy stencil. I have no idea if the andalusion cockbird carries toy stencil. He's only thrown me various colors of blues and blue indigos, until now. The only thing i know is that he does come from a loft that had alot of yellow, and red wings. So its possible he could also be a carrier for those colors.

The first set of babies I got from them are going through their first molt. I could be wrong on this, but it looks like one is going to *possibly* be a silver wing(or maybe a blue if I am wrong). Either blue or bronze bar like its mom. 

The other baby looks like its going to *possibly* be an indigo with bronze bar. The bar is an off red color so far, so I assume thats what its going to be after it molts. 

Second set of babies. Both are entirely different colors. These are a couple of weeks old. One is extremely dark blue. So dark its almost black. its legs were also black when it first hatched. I thought it might be an andalusion, like its dad. Until i took a closer look at its feathers today. They seem to be outlined with *possibly*, very visible, modena bronze. The flight feathers have a lighter, almost white outline to them on the edge of the feather. 

The second baby is a redish brown/bronze color, with a very, very light blue, almost white base color to the feathers. This is more defined on the top/back of the wing, with the tip of each feather bright redish brown/bronze. The red seems to go up the center of some of the feathers, more towards the top of the wing. The flights are a darker redish blue. Tail feathers seem to be going blue. 

So what you guys think what colors they could be after they molt?


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## horseart4u

OOOOOOOOOOO can't wait to see pic's, i am so wanting to get 2 pair of archangels soon


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## chinbunny

Here is the mother. this is the one out of a toy stencil breeding.


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## chinbunny

This is the baby that looks like it might be an indigo. Chest color is starting to molt into gold.


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## chinbunny

This is the one that looks silver. The camera picked up a lot of blue on it. it does not have that much blue. This one is also going to be a gold.


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## chinbunny

The following pictures are of the really dark baby. 



























And here is the bronze pattern outlining the feathers.


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## chinbunny

This is the redish brown baby.


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## Vova

Awesome birds!


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## chinbunny

Thanks.


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## chinbunny

Anyone have any idea what the two little babies are?


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## horseart4u

they are nice looking can't wait to see them all grown and molted out.


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## ntama

chinbunny said:


> Anyone have any idea what the two little babies are?


To me the dark one dirty blu,could be het.indigo,the other one early to say,coluld be sulphur(dilute bronze)but u will see after they molt.


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## rudolph.est

You asked a lot of questions here chinbunny, but your first post started incorrectly. We explained earlier that you cannot have andalusian archangels. Since andalusian requires both indigo and spread, and archangels require T-pattern and bronze. Spread does not allow the archangel bronze in the neck to show through very well. ;-) Was the male was indigo T-pattern archangel bronze, it is important to know what both parents are for accurate discussions.

Now for the answers, as far as I can give them. 

Mother: toy-stencil archangel cross, very poor archangel bronze in the neck if any at all. Good TS1 bronze bars.
Baby #1: Indigo bar (or maybe barless), very poor or non-existent archangel bronze, very poor TS1 if she carries any TS. All indigo birds have red/brown bars, so TS is not required.
Baby #2: Could be dilute (silver) bar but probably not, also very poor archangel bronze if any at all. Did it have short down?
Baby #3: Dirty blue. Poor archangel bronze, if any, the red/bronze edging in the feathers is quite common in dirty birds and could also be a sign of het. rec. red or other bronzes, but could also mean nothing. The bronze on the edge of the feathers most probably will disappear in the moult.
Baby #4: This one is a mystery to me too. It'll have to grow up a bit more before we can really see what is going on. Might be rec-red or TS1 T-pattern? 

None of these birds show any significant amount of archangel bronze though. Even my F1 archangel / homer crosses have more bronze in the breast than these birds do. In my experience, archangel bronze crosses rarely moult in more bronze, and usually lose quite a bit of bronze in the neck at the first moult. I really would recommend you breed these birds back to some copper blackwing or bluewing archangels to improve the archangel bronze coloration.


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## rudolph.est

ntama said:


> To me the dark one dirty blu,could be het.indigo,the other one early to say,coluld be sulphur(dilute bronze)but u will see after they molt.


The dirty could possibly be het indigo, but I rather doubt it. There would be more red/brown in the pattern area if this were the case. 

Also, just to be clear. The dilute of TS1 bronze (modena bronze) can be called sulphur, but the dilute of archangel bronze is called gold, and not sulfur. Since both could possibly be involved here, it is important to remember the distinction...


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## ntama

rudolph.est said:


> The dirty could possibly be het indigo, but I rather doubt it. There would be more red/brown in the pattern area if this were the case.
> 
> Also, just to be clear. The dilute of TS1 bronze (modena bronze) can be called sulphur, but the dilute of archangel bronze is called gold, and not sulfur. Since both could possibly be involved here, it is important to remember the distinction...


Thanks Rudolph,
i'm newer seen a pale TS modena bronz bird, somewhere between non dilute-dilute?Any idea how it look like,and how they call?simply pale bronz?

Tamas


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## chinbunny

Mary of exter was the one who told me my one cockbird is an andalusion and has claimed to see pure blacks. I dunno though.


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## chinbunny

I'm aware the mother has poor gimple. I wondered if her dad, the toy stencil was crossed with something. Maybe a homer? The only reason why I kept her is she is my only remaining bird from him, that did not fly off on me last year. She is a brood bird. I would have kept her sibling, who was a much better bird, & had better color, if it had not have flown off. Thats good you think shes a ts1. I wondered about that because her color is so poor at the moment. The cock I bred her to is the one who mary thought was andalusion. He is a copper blue wing, and he does throw babies who are solid gimple, or gold. 

The older babies are in their first molt. Gold feathers are coming in on their chests.

Now im confused about that, because the archangel standard of perfection says you can get andalusion wings in archangels. 

"One of the indigo modifiers’ effects is to lighten the light and tail feather tips. One dose of this factor also gives the pattern a red colour and so it’s easy to mistake for ash-red. Two doses generally turn the wings and tail nearly white. In other pigeon breeds (where archangel bronze is net present) two does of indigo produce a coloured head on a nearly white bird. In combination with Archangel bronze however, the body will maintain to colour. Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird". In this case, the complementary iridescence is blue rather than green Blue barless or barred blue wings with one dose of indigo are also very pretty. Another popular colour combination in Archangels is two doses of indigo plus archangel bronze in the windshield (which sometimes occurs on blue wings). This makes the bronze appear to float on top of both the pattern and background of the wing. In American Archangels, indigo combined with toy-stencil gives a bronze outline to the white pattern."

The questionable baby is getting more blue in the feathers. Now it looks very light blue/red. i showed a picture of it to someone else I know who raises racing pigeons. he said it could be a recessive red, but won't know till it molts.


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## MaryOfExeter

If andalusian is in the standard, it's possible. End of discussion. Just because you don't see spreads much in archangels because they take more work, doesn't mean they don't exist. It just takes more work. There is also a self colored bird class in the standard. Which seems weird for such a color oriented breed but it's there!

"One of the indigo modifiers’ effects is to lighten the light and tail feather tips. One dose of this factor also gives the pattern a red colour and so it’s easy to mistake for ash-red. Two doses generally turn the wings and tail nearly white. In other pigeon breeds (where archangel bronze is net present) two does of indigo produce a coloured head on a nearly white bird. In combination with Archangel bronze however, the body will maintain to colour. Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird". In this case, the complementary iridescence is blue rather than green Blue barless or barred blue wings with one dose of indigo are also very pretty. Another popular colour combination in Archangels is two doses of indigo plus archangel bronze in the windshield (which sometimes occurs on blue wings). This makes the bronze appear to float on top of bath the pattern and background of the wing. In American Archangels, indigo combined with toy-stencil gives a bronze outline to the white pattern."

Oops, didn't realize you'd already quoted that.


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## chinbunny

Mary, any thoughts on my birds?


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## MaryOfExeter

chinbunny said:


> This is the one that looks silver. The camera picked up a lot of blue on it. it does not have that much blue. This one is also going to be a gold.


Yes this is silver (dilute blue) bar split for barless, I assume, with the thin bars.


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## MaryOfExeter

chinbunny said:


> This is the baby that looks like it might be an indigo. Chest color is starting to molt into gold.


Could be. It will be easier to tell after a moult


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## MaryOfExeter

As for the babies, the dark one is definitely dirty. The lacing effect you are seeing is a typical effect of bronze and moults out.

The reddish white-ish baby we need to wait until it completely feathers out to make any good guesses.


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## chinbunny

What about the mother? Do you also think shes a ts1? Shes def silver colored.


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## rudolph.est

ntama said:


> Thanks Rudolph,
> i'm newer seen a pale TS modena bronz bird, somewhere between non dilute-dilute?Any idea how it look like,and how they call?simply pale bronz?
> 
> Tamas


Since pale is not found in modenas (AFAIK), I don't think there really is a name for the color. I tend to keep it simple and use the names of the genes, rather than whatever terminology fanciers use for their breed. Call it pale modena bronze or pale TS1, then everyone knows exactly what you are talking about.

Similarly archangel bronze is called gold when either dilute or pale is involved, but pale leaves the wings of T-patterns black, while dilute usually causes the pattern to become more grey (unless there is serious selection for darkening modifiers).


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## rudolph.est

chinbunny said:


> What about the mother? Do you also think shes a ts1? Shes def silver colored.


I wouldn't call the mother silver (her flights are too dark to be dilute blue, in my opinion). But she could be pale blue.


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## rudolph.est

MaryOfExeter said:


> If andalusian is in the standard, it's possible. End of discussion. Just because you don't see spreads much in archangels because they take more work, doesn't mean they don't exist. It just takes more work. There is also a self colored bird class in the standard. Which seems weird for such a color oriented breed but it's there!
> 
> "One of the indigo modifiers’ effects is to lighten the light and tail feather tips. One dose of this factor also gives the pattern a red colour and so it’s easy to mistake for ash-red. Two doses generally turn the wings and tail nearly white. In other pigeon breeds (where archangel bronze is net present) two does of indigo produce a coloured head on a nearly white bird. In combination with Archangel bronze however, the body will maintain to colour. Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird". In this case, the complementary iridescence is blue rather than green Blue barless or barred blue wings with one dose of indigo are also very pretty. Another popular colour combination in Archangels is two doses of indigo plus archangel bronze in the windshield (which sometimes occurs on blue wings). This makes the bronze appear to float on top of bath the pattern and background of the wing. In American Archangels, indigo combined with toy-stencil gives a bronze outline to the white pattern."
> 
> Oops, didn't realize you'd already quoted that.


I know we have discussed it before,

The problem with the online version of the standard (which I have read many times), is that I am not sure it is an endorsed standard. Even more worrisome, is the fact that some of the genetics stated in that standard sound theoretical rather than factual.

In Europe, there are no archangels other than the copper and gold black, blue and white-wings. I've never seen an 'andalusian' arhcangel in a show, nor have I seen pictures of show quality gimple bronze in association with spread, let alone spread and indigo. What the 'standard' calls firebird and andalusian wing etc, is a non-standard color that is not shown. There has been cases of the rare rec-red or rec-white archangel popping up, but those are probably from earlier crosses, and these birds are not shown either.

The distinguishing characteristic of an archangel is the bronze, which has to cover the head, neck and entire undercarriage of the bird. If the bird does not show this coloration, it is *not* a show quality archangel. Such a bronze is not possible with spread, or at least, this has not been proved possible in any source I have seen. And my own crosses so far support that statement. As does Axel Sell: 'The bronze or gold trait in this case was entirely suppressed by the Spread factor.'

The standard is extremely 'optimistic' as to the colors which can be created, and pretty much states that every gene found in all of pigeondom can be combined in an archangel. This is just not currently the case, no one breeds check archangels, nor ice, nor almond, but they are in this 'standard' too. 

I have bred archangels to almonds, and guess what, they are not copper breasted with 'almond' or 'magnani' wings, not unless there is one dose of RR as well as kite and dirty, and then you are just breeding a normal almond of field pigeon type with a crest. Archangel bronze has nothing to do with it. Many of the other combinations stated in the 'standard' similarly describe field pigeons (or german color pigeons) with specific genes, that do not have to be archangels.

I disagree with your statement that if a standard says it exists, it has to exist. Standards are sometimes drafted by non-genetics experts.

Notice that the statement: 'Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird".' is genetically inaccurate. True blacks (or firebirds) are spread, and adding indigo could theoretically produce an andalusian firebird, T-patterns (or blackwings) will not become andalusian wings when adding indigo, they would become red winged, since indigo will change the pattern area to red not andalusian blue.


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## Henk69

I heard some rumors about andalusian winged arch angels here in the Netherlands. Having ordinary blue winged ones myself I must say that in some stage they resemble the andalusian look.


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> I heard some rumors about andalusian winged arch angels here in the Netherlands. Having ordinary blue winged ones myself I must say that in some stage they resemble the andalusian look.


I agree that bluewings (barless) look somewhat like andalusians. But definitely cannot be called andalusian... 

Have you seen / heard of any archangels that have the spread factor? My tests show that spread masks archangel bronze to a large extent.


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## chinbunny

The standard says two doses of indigo will produce an andalusion. So some breeders must be seeing them here. It doesn't say anything about show quality. When I purchased my andalusion, i was told he was a rare color, and I have not seen a bird colored like him. He throws indigos, who are much lighter then he is. His coloring is almost black. 

I happen to know of an archangel breeder, who does show, who does buy my auction birds because they are blue colors that he does not have in his flock. Esp if they come from my main breeding male. so there must be something there that must be of some value. 

I happen to have check archangels, and I have also seen them on other websites from breeders here in the US who show. 

The bronze wing I used to have was supposed to be a carrier for blue ice. 

Maybe i'll test breed mycockbrid to one of his daughters/granddaughters, we'll see what they throw.


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## chinbunny

To add the above, I have seen normal blues. In fact i have a couple of breeding birds myself. They look nothing like the father of these babies.


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## NZ Pigeon

chinbunny said:


> *The standard says two doses of indigo will produce an andalusion.* So some breeders must be seeing them here. It doesn't say anything about show quality. When I purchased my andalusion, i was told he was a rare color, and I have not seen a bird colored like him. He throws indigos, who are much lighter then he is. His coloring is almost black.
> 
> I happen to know of an archangel breeder, who does show, who does buy my auction birds because they are blue colors that he does not have in his flock. Esp if they come from my main breeding male. so there must be something there that must be of some value.
> 
> I happen to have check archangels, and I have also seen them on other websites from breeders here in the US who show.
> 
> The bronze wing I used to have was supposed to be a carrier for blue ice.
> 
> Maybe i'll test breed mycockbrid to one of his daughters/granddaughters, we'll see what they throw.


The standard is wrong - Two doses of Indigo on its own or with spread? Either way - andalusian is one dose of Indigo and one dose of spread. No exceptions.


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## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> I wouldn't call the mother silver (her flights are too dark to be dilute blue, in my opinion). But she could be pale blue.


I'm with Rudolph. Doesn't look dilute


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## chinbunny

i was wrong about the two doses. "One of the indigo modifiers’ effects is to lighten the light and tail feather tips. One dose of this factor also gives the pattern a red colour and so it’s easy to mistake for ash-red. Two doses generally turn the wings and tail nearly white. In other pigeon breeds (where archangel bronze is net present) two does of indigo produce a coloured head on a nearly white bird. In combination with Archangel bronze however, the body will maintain to colour. Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird". In this case, the complementary iridescence is blue rather than green Blue barless or barred blue wings with one dose of indigo are also very pretty. Another popular colour combination in Archangels is two doses of indigo plus archangel bronze in the windshield (which sometimes occurs on blue wings). This makes the bronze appear to float on top of bath the pattern and background of the wing. In American Archangels, indigo combined with toy-stencil gives a bronze outline to the white pattern."


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## chinbunny

IRL the hen doesn't look blue at all. She is an off white/silver color. The camera got her a shade dark. 

I have a pale blue who does not look like that all, unless there are various shades of pale blue?


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## NZ Pigeon

chinbunny said:


> IRL the hen doesn't look blue at all. She is an off white/silver color. The camera got her a shade dark.
> 
> I have a pale blue who does not look like that all, unless there are various shades of pale blue?


I find it hard to believe it looks off white, The camera has surely worked some magic to make it look blue.

There would be various shades of pale blue depending on other modifiers, A dirty pale blue would look a lot darker than a wildtype pale blue.


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## Henk69

rudolph.est said:


> I agree that bluewings (barless) look somewhat like andalusians. But definitely cannot be called andalusian...
> 
> Have you seen / heard of any archangels that have the spread factor? My tests show that spread masks archangel bronze to a large extent.


I have made a cross between recessive red spread magpie and copper blackwing. They would be heterozygous arch angel bronze and heterozygous spread (and heterozygous rec.red). They do have the body gloss of the arch angel but would pass as solid black I guess.

I can imagine that homozygous arch angel bronze(s) on a (heterozygous) spread could have a stronger effect.


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## NZ Pigeon

Henk69 said:


> I have made a cross between recessive red spread magpie and copper blackwing. They would be heterozygous arch angel bronze and heterozygous spread (and heterozygous rec.red). They do have the body gloss of the arch angel but would pass as solid black I guess.
> 
> I can imagine that homozygous arch angel bronze(s) on a (heterozygous) spread could have a stronger effect.


Henk, Is the gloss due to the enhanced grease quill rather than the arch-angel bronze?


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> I have made a cross between recessive red spread magpie and copper blackwing. They would be heterozygous arch angel bronze and heterozygous spread (and heterozygous rec.red). They do have the body gloss of the arch angel but would pass as solid black I guess.
> 
> I can imagine that homozygous arch angel bronze(s) on a (heterozygous) spread could have a stronger effect.


I have a similar archangel x black barb hen that looks black with a coppery ring around the neck. Pretty much a black bird with a copper sheen, nowhere near copper enough to count as an archangel.

Maybe you are right to believe that homozygous Ka1 (or even Ka1//Ka1 ka2//ka2) would make a lot of difference on such blacks, but I am doubtful. The phenotype is called black firebird (in the standard) by the way, and will not look like blackwings.

My question here is whether any S//? In//? Ka1//? ka2/ka2 (what I assume chinbunny is calling anandalusian wing) birds exist, and if they do, will they actually show proper gimpel bronze. 

In fact the standard states that CT//? In//? Ka1//? ka2/ka2 is called andalusian wing. And that is what I take issue with. 



NZ Pigeon said:


> Henk, Is the gloss due to the enhanced grease quill rather than the arch-angel bronze?


The gloss on mine is definitely due to Ka1. But it is more of a copper sheen, than a copper feather color. She does not have grease quills as far as I can tell.


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## rudolph.est

chinbunny said:


> When I purchased my andalusion, i was told he was a rare color, and I have not seen a bird colored like him. He throws indigos, who are much lighter then he is. His coloring is almost black.


I think you have posted a picture of him before, but I cannot find it... Could we see it again please?



chinbunny said:


> I happen to know of an archangel breeder, who does show, who does buy my auction birds because they are blue colors that he does not have in his flock. Esp if they come from my main breeding male. so there must be something there that must be of some value.


I didn't mean to sound like I am calling your birds worthless. On the contrary, they are rare colors. and valuable. I just would like to see more archangel bronze in the chest and neck, otherwise, why call them archangels ;-). Mating them with show quality copper blackwing or gold blackwing archangels is the only way to improve the bronze, which is probably what the show people do with the birds they buy from you.



chinbunny said:


> The bronze wing I used to have was supposed to be a carrier for blue ice.


Ice is a dominant gene, and cannot be carried. I have seen pictures of archangel x ice pigeons though, and they are rather beautiful.


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## ntama

rudolph.est said:


> Since pale is not found in modenas (AFAIK), I don't think there really is a name for the color. I tend to keep it simple and use the names of the genes, rather than whatever terminology fanciers use for their breed. Call it pale modena bronze or pale TS1, then everyone knows exactly what you are talking about.
> 
> Similarly archangel bronze is called gold when either dilute or pale is involved, but pale leaves the wings of T-patterns black, while dilute usually causes the pattern to become more grey (unless there is serious selection for darkening modifiers).


Thanks Rudolph!


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## chinbunny

its ok rudolph. you aren't the only one who has made comments about the poor quality color of my birds. Kind of feels like im getting it beat into my head with a nine inch nail at times.  I could just be ebing overly emotional about it though.  

I just want to know what the wing color is. I guess I should have been more clear on that. 

Ok an update on the mystery baby. I have no picture at the moment. So i will describe what i saw when I handled it tonight. its def a bar. It appears to have two bars on each wing. could be the bronze pattern showing up too. first bar starts off as bronze/deep redich brown, and then fades to light blue/brown. Second bar starts off as the same redish brown, then goes dark blue towards the flight feathers. The flight feathers look blue indigo & they are dark. The rest of the wing is still light blue with bronze/brown wing tips. i have never gotten a blue baby before with that much bronze on the feathers.


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## chinbunny

here is the copper blue wing/andalusion cockbird. hes a a lot darker then what the picture shows. hes also gotten alot darker since i bought him a few years ago. I do believe he has no t-bar markings on his tail. Got to looking at them, and they are pure blue.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/new-here-43128-2.html

As far as breeding to show quality birds goes, i plan to eventually, but right now I just can't afford them. maybe in another year or two Ill add a pair to my flock. i do have a good colored copper from this bird, and i also have a god colored gold hen. haven't had much luck getting babies out of the copper one.


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## Henk69

That one looks like a plain bluewing.


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## chinbunny

The mystery baby? I don't think it is. Its got way too much bronze on it. More then i have ever seen on any of my blue babies. Its possible though.


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## chinbunny

Ill try to get another picture of the mystery baby soon. Its got a lot more blue in it. Looks like it might possibly be a dilute, or pale indigo with bronze bars.


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> That one looks like a plain bluewing.


I also thought this bird might just be plain bluewing (barless blue), but the tail seems to have no bar... It might actually be het. indigo spread...


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## indigobob

rudolph.est said:


> I also thought this bird might just be plain bluewing (barless blue), but the tail seems to have no bar... It might actually be het. indigo spread...


Looks like barless heterozygous indigo.


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## Henk69

Yes, but the wingshield effect is not uncommon.


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## george simon

rudolph.est said:


> I also thought this bird might just be plain bluewing (barless blue), but the tail seems to have no bar... It might actually be het. indigo spread...


The wing and tail of this is bird are Andalusian and the head is blue. This tells us that the bird is carring Indigo, and this bird is also carring the gimpel pattern gene. The gene pool in this bird is very intresting.Heterozygous Gimpel Pattern (gp)does not show in F1s except sometimes in a bronze crop cresent.HENK69 have you shown any of these birds in the shows in Europe? GEORGE


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## rudolph.est

george simon said:


> The wing and tail of this is bird are Andalusian and the head is blue. This tells us that the bird is carring Indigo, and this bird is also carring the gimpel pattern gene. The gene pool in this bird is very intresting.Heterozygous Gimpel Pattern (gp)does not show in F1s except sometimes in a bronze crop cresent.HENK69 have you shown any of these birds in the shows in Europe? GEORGE


Axel sell is of the opinion that no gimpel pattern gene exists... So far in my own crosses, I have to agree with this, though I have not yet bred enough F2 for statistical analysis.

Archangel bronze Ka1, is the gene that causes a copper crop/neck in heterozygotes and a copper head and neck in homozygotes. A second recessive gene ka2, further intensifies the bronze as seen in archangels. Do you disagree? 

I have asked before on this forum, multiple times what the 'gimpel pattern' is and what it looks like, but no-one had any answers. I have bred a couple mimic black birds though in the F2 (birds that look like they are spread, but are actually T-pattern and so dirty that no blue is shown in the tail or underbelly). Are these what is meant by gimpel pattern?


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## Henk69

I have not shown any pigeons yet. Arch angels are born messy and get better with age.

I am puzzled with the arch angel pattern too. I also get animals with bronze (gold) wingshields suggesting that another heterozygous factor is in the arch angel color. I have yet to see animals that do not have that factor.

I have noticed that crosslings between blackwing and bluewing look like normal checks, not T-checks.


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> Arch angels are born messy and get better with age.


 The archangel breeder from whom I got my copper blackwings had a different experience. His blackwings feather out as perfect little archangels, they have an insane amount of sheen by the time they leave the nest, though it does intensify somewhat at the first moult.



Henk69 said:


> I am puzzled with the arch angel pattern too. I also get animals with bronze (gold) wingshields suggesting that another heterozygous factor is in the arch angel color. I have yet to see animals that do not have that factor.


Strange you should mention that, I have an F2 in the nest that looks to be a schoorstenveger phenotype! Solid bronze, with black tips to the feathers (mostly on the flights). I have to add that it turns out my original smoky bar homer turned out to be split RR as well as some kind of bronze... So that could influence the results.

I also bred a pure black from F2 from two T-pattern F1s, but sadly he went missing this weekend while flying around the loft.



Henk69 said:


> I have noticed that crosslings between blackwing and bluewing look like normal checks, not T-checks.


 I have not had that experience. Breeding copper blackwing to blue bar smoky gave me 4 very dark T-pattern youngsters.


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## Henk69

Copper blackwing is so well thorough bred that it has become a true breeding color. This was told to me by an arch angel breeder. The other/newer colors have added genes?
I only have 2 copper blackwing males so I can not confirm that they breed true.
Axel Sell's site shows some coppershields though, out of copper blackwing breeding.


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## NZ Pigeon

In NZ, any copper blackwings or bluewings are called archangels as they are what we consider the true colours within the breed, Any birds with other colour varieties are called Gimpels. Seems a bit odd to me but that seems to be how it works.


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> Copper blackwing is so well thorough bred that it has become a true breeding color. This was told to me by an arch angel breeder. The other/newer colors have added genes?
> I only have 2 copper blackwing males so I can not confirm that they breed true.
> Axel Sell's site shows some coppershields though, out of copper blackwing breeding.


The coppershields (or solid coppers) are recessive red as far as I understand what I read on that website... And quite rare ;-)


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## rudolph.est

NZ Pigeon said:


> In NZ, any copper blackwings or bluewings are called archangels as they are what we consider the true colours within the breed, Any birds with other colour varieties are called Gimpels. Seems a bit odd to me but that seems to be how it works.


This is true in some countries, but not in others. As far as I can gather, in the UK, the name Archangel is only used for copper and gold blackwings and bluewings (barred or barless), the rest are called gimpel. In Germany and probably the rest of continental Europe, the terms are pretty much interchangeable, and in the US there is no gimpel, all the colors are called archangel...


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## Henk69

rudolph.est said:


> The coppershields (or solid coppers) are recessive red as far as I understand what I read on that website... And quite rare ;-)


No, I mean the schoorsteenveger type ones.


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## ljb107

rudolph.est said:


> This is true in some countries, but not in others. As far as I can gather, in the UK, the name Archangel is only used for copper and gold blackwings and bluewings (barred or barless), the rest are called gimpel. In Germany and probably the rest of continental Europe, the terms are pretty much interchangeable, and in the US there is no gimpel, all the colors are called archangel...


Nope. In the UK copper blacks are archangels and everything else is a gimpel


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## rudolph.est

ljb107 said:


> Nope. In the UK copper blacks are archangels and everything else is a gimpel


Thanks for the clarification...


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## rudolph.est

Henk69 said:


> No, I mean the schoorsteenveger type ones.


I don't remember seeing the schoorsteenveger types on Axel's website, Seems I'll have to read through all those pages again. I really have to start taking notes with references to the web-page adresses!


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## Henk69

http://www.taubensell.de/alles ueber die gimpeltauben.htm


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## rudolph.est

I am struggling to read what the caption says. The page itself does not say anything about how this phenotype is attained, but speaks of the authors Heinrich Schroeder and Klaus Gebhard... I really should buy the book...


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## chinbunny

thank you george! yes he does throw some beatiful, gimpel indigos. I have a solid copper indigo hen from him that I have been trying to breed with, with no luck.  

His son, who is a regular blue bar, throws dark regular checks. The dark check I have from him(which is a grandson to the bird in the picture) has a pure black head with a dark gimpel chest. 

Ill try to update with new pictures of the babies later this weekend. the dirty one is going to a barred. probably blue. The other still has a combination for blue and bronze in its feathers.


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## chinbunny

Henk69 said:


> I have not shown any pigeons yet. Arch angels are born messy and get better with age.
> 
> I am puzzled with the arch angel pattern too. I also get animals with bronze (gold) wingshields suggesting that another heterozygous factor is in the arch angel color. I have yet to see animals that do not have that factor.
> 
> I have noticed that crosslings between blackwing and bluewing look like normal checks, not T-checks.


I have gotten the same thing. Only mine produce really dark(black) or blue t checks. Had a ts1 bronze check baby, last year that flew off.


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## chinbunny

Here is the mystery baby again.


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## chinbunny

& it does have bronze in the flight feathers too. it is darker shade of bronze then what the camera shows.


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## rudolph.est

Mystery is right!

Maybe this one should go on a new thread... I'm getting rather discombobulated about which bird is which and which parent is which ;-)


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