# What's your breeding method?



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I recently read an article on the pretzel breeding method where you breed cousins, uncle to niece, aunt to nephew. The author claims it's his preferred method. I like the method of Old Hand more. Which method do you prefer to produce your champion birds?


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam on the dams side.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I haven't read the article, but it sounds like line-breeding.

I think from what I read is that Champions are crosses. What I have observed at my loft is that crosses have more vigor.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I like to use a bit of sex linkage and try and breed siblings of same sex to other siblings of same sex that work. Ex would be my 250 winner this year was off a son of ed and a daughter of Kahuna. I would try this combination again. I also look for which sex makes the best breeders. Out of Ed it is the cocks. Last year they bred a 200 mile winner and second high points bird in the club. This year a brother bred the winner. A sister did breed Don Woodruff's winner this year, but the cocks breed best for the most part. The hens seem to fly better. My bird Buzz breeds good breeding hens. So an Ed cock x a Buzz hen would be a good match. This is what I put up for bid in auction 1 for breast cancer. 
Also something I am trying to do is only stock the loft with breeders of winners, top 10s or top 10% in that order of preference. 31 of my 42 breeders this year have at least bred a top 10% bird, 20 top 10 birds and 11 different birds have bred winners. I am putting 9 new birds in the breeding loft to replace birds that don't produce as well as I would like. The two birds that have not bred top 10% are off my best and only raised 2 birds last year. I will split them up and try it again.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I will breed any combination, but brothers and sisters, and parents to siblings. Breeding for racing, I do not need the bloodlines as close. I also try and bring a new family in every few years. This year and last I am working in Ace's Houben blood. This keeps the blood from getting stale. I may breed parent x sibling or Grandparent x grad child if I was looking for traits that I want to preserve for breeding. After 6 years of breeding these birds, I might think about breeding a few for stock that have the maximum blood of my best. This would entail some inbreeding or more line breeding.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Ace's Houben blood brings in two traits that I look for. Birds that are as good or better than my best and the look (stock sense) that I like. Out of 9 birds tested with this blood in ABQ we had in top 10%: equal 1st, 13th, 16th, 22nd, 35th and 5 out of 8 races one of these birds was 1st or equal 1st to the loft. 6/8 showed that they had what I want, Top 10%, wins, or 1st to the loft.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Hope this helps give you ideas. One more thing to think about is only bring into stock what you think is the best. If you breed for stock it better be off your best pair and a bird that has same sex siblings that have produced winners. Otherwise you are wasting your time. The second birds I would bring in are race winners. Only one bird out of my 36 that were raced this year will come home to breed. It was equal 1st, 2nd clocked in the race that I won by 7 minutes at 250 miles. The sire(my blood) died last year and it is also off a hen from Ace's blood that I am bringing into the loft. The first clocked will stay and race old birds.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

So my next question is, if you have a successful linebred family, which would you bring in to cross, a cock or hen to bring back hybrid vigor into the blood?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If you can bring in four or five birds from the family you know is good to cross in with yours. I do not think one bird is going to tell you much. I like to work with three different lines. This way you can cross the combinations to see what works. I am breeding four direct children and two grandchildren off the new line am bringing in. This will give me a good test. 
As for bringing in a cock or a hen, I would get the best bird you can find. I think too many concentrate on cocks not hens. Some of my best birds have been hens. I like the rule if you are trying to emulate a cock obtain his daughter, a hen her son.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> I recently read an article on the pretzel breeding method where you breed cousins, uncle to niece, aunt to nephew. The author claims it's his preferred method. I like the method of Old Hand more. Which method do you prefer to produce your champion birds?


 If I had actually produced any real quantity of "Champion Birds" then maybe I would have something to really add to the subject matter. But the truth of the matter is, I have produced very few pigeons that one could really call "Champion Birds". Mathematically speaking, most of what I produce is simply average. 

And to be perfectly honest, I can't really say with any degree of certainty, that any of my methods past or present, were any more successful then random chance. If you acquire some "Good" birds, and you employ some selection process, in time you should produce more of what it is you are selecting for. I suspect the average fancier does not select any better then average, and so over time, be it 10 years or 50 years, or 100 years, they will still end up producing fairly average pigeons. 

I am a strong believer in this idea of a "Family Line". If for no other reason then the desire to produce some consistency in the offspring. But some of my best pigeons were the result of an accidental pairing or just pure dumb luck. With every passing season, instead of becoming more confident that I have the answers, I realize how little I really understand about the subject. This has been a lifelong learning process, which applies not only to my homing pigeons, but to other areas in life as well. I not only don't have the answers, I don't even know most of the questions !

Give me a few hundred more years, and I am sure I will get a much better handle on this subject, then I currently have. For 2010 my "Star" pair was a complete accident, in that after all my shrewd pairings, I ended up with a cock and a hen that weren't paired to anyone...so they got each other. It wasn't based on any Pretzels or Old Hands...it was simply trying to retain a small group of breeders which best represented in my mind's eye, parts of what that future perfect pigeon would be like. In this particular case, Mother Nature lined up the various genetic combinations, and the end result was something a little better then either parent. To end the season with a couple of birds better then what I already owned in the breeding loft, was in my mind, a wonderful success. But, it was as much luck as it was anything else.

Such discoveries have provided me encouragement, because with every new generation, if I am not moving forward and improving what I already own, then I will simply slide into the mediocrity of average. So use Pretzels, Old Hands, or tail sign, or just plain dumb luck. But, if you are not producing better, then you are falling behind.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> If you can bring in four or five birds from the family you know is good to cross in with yours. I do not think one bird is going to tell you much. I like to work with three different lines. This way you can cross the combinations to see what works. I am breeding four direct children and two grandchildren off the new line am bringing in. This will give me a good test.
> As for bringing in a cock or a hen, *I would get the best bird you can find. I think too many concentrate on cocks not hens. Some of my best birds have been hens. *I like the rule if you are trying to emulate a cock obtain his daughter, a hen her son.


 I agree 100%. I think this idea of focusing on the cocks has to do with commercial applications. If one has a Super Duper Star Breeder Cock bird he can be paired with numerous hens and dozens of his offspring can be produced (and sold) by the owner. Only a fool would take a Super Duper Star Breeder Hen and attempt to mass produce offspring. 

Bottom line, attempt to own and acquire the best of everything, male and female. You need World Class specimens of both sexes to produce World Class Pigeons.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

At age 68,I stopped breeding !! hahahaha!!! I just thought a little humor went with the TITTLE of this thread.....Alamo


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Kal-El said:


> I recently read an article on the pretzel breeding method where you breed cousins, uncle to niece, aunt to nephew. The author claims it's his preferred method. I like the method of Old Hand more. Which method do you prefer to produce your champion birds?




Are you talking about the article Ken Easely wrote.
Ken's a master flyer in roller game. 
He knows his stuff.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Many suggest mating best to best...Proven racers mated to each other..Ofcourse there is no guarentee no mater which way you try...Sometimes a bird that is well bred,but not a good racer,will breed racers.....I could only say that my dad had a fantastic cock who won at all distances many times,but never produced a winner....His full brother,not a very good racer produced many winners....Go figure !! When you have a fantastic breeding couple,or two great racers,you want some children from them to stock,so that you can have a family built around the pair...Once you have father daughter youngsters,or mother son youngsters,you would be wise to outcross these with another family,and see how the YB`s race from them........Even YB`s from brother sister matings can do well....If you have a good size loft,and are able to breed as such,you can do well...I have a stock loft with 8 nest boxes...And a flying loft that is 10 by 16.....Not alot of room to do all of the above....I have in the past 4 years brought in 8 birds to be crossed in...The reason I brought in a few birds is,ALL my stock birds were brother sisters,mom and dads,and cousins....Only 8 pairs !! So you can see how close my birds were to each other....I needed a cross to bring out the racing ability again....I had to get rid of 4 of the 8birds I brought in,because the young out of them were not doing all that well...I wasn`t losing them,even at 550 miles,but I was not clocking them in race time....They have to be competitive at 400 to 600 mile races...I keep only 8 to 12 pair of OB flyers over the winter...I have a total of 7 stock pairs,and 8 pairs of OB`s to race....That`s 30 birds total....Very hard to breed what has been said above,with a very small loft,as I have......Alamo


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Alamo,
I noticed the same. It irritates me to no end. Why can't all good racers be all excellent breeders, too? But they don't! And there are birds which you almost culled that turned out to be good breeders. I think God is laughing at us.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

fresnobirdman said:


> Are you talking about the article Ken Easely wrote.
> Ken's a master flyer in roller game.
> He knows his stuff.


Ken is a member of the club I fly with in ABQ .He took all the prizes this year, Champion Loft, Average Speed, Most wins. Ken would be a good guy to emulate. We (my birds and Cliff Spencer) were second to Ken in Average Speed. Ken has top quality birds. Don't know if it is breeding strategy or racing methods that win ,or the fact that he has deep pockets. He has some of the best birds money can buy. Ken knows a lot about birds.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

I have talked to many fanciers on this topic. Almost always they say that the best racers were made by accident. If you pair up the birds the way you want then more often than not they are average birds. If you have good quality birds and allow them to pick his/ her own nest mate then that luck of having a great racer seems to bet better. The birds knows best.

I have got lucky and have about three families of different lines. They are all paring up the way that they want right now. I am look forward to seeing what YB team looks like first round and maybe second round birds.

Then I am going to change up the pairing to what I think is the best (line breeding) and breed for stock.

I do know how it will turn out, but that is the learning process. 

What do you think?


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

My best bird was bred by accident. He didn't fly well as a young bird in 2009, often placing in the 80th to 120th positions, so I decided to fly him old birds in 2010. Luckliy did I know, he placed 13th Nationally in the Middle Distance category against a 1,300 bird average. I have a full brother to him also. Going to try line breeding around these two guys. Bulll system?


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