# When will pigeons go around rather than over mountains?



## bobinca (Feb 19, 2009)

I live in southern California with the 395 Concourse race. The San Gabriel mountains are between the release point and my house. I don't know the heights of all the passes, but I'd guess the mountains are around 7,000 feet or so. How high of mountains will pigeons fly over to maintain the "shortest distance" route, and when will they fly further to go around mountains? Any ideas/experiences? Thanks.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Good question. I'll be curious to hear the answers you get. We had a bit of controversy this year over a new YB race course the would have put the birds on the OTHER side of a mountain range.....everybody freaked out.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The two clubs that I have flown with both have mountain issues. The Grand Junction Club flies due North. This puts some of their Southwestern members with Grand Mesa Colorado between them and the first release point. The elevation is around 12,500 feet. Where home is around 5,000 ft. We know the birds fly over the mesa because the come home with mud on their feet from the numerous lakes on top of the mesa. 

The second example is a few of the fliers in Albuquerque live on the East side of the Sandia Mountains 12,200 ft. Abq is 5,000 feet. The fliers release their birds at the top of the crest around 12,000 feet so they get used to going up and over the mountains to go home. They win races on the other side of the mountains. The birds in last years race series flew very high, and usually came dropping straight down. The Eastern birds may have taken them that high. 

I think it is like anything else, If you train them to go up and over they will. If not they may follow the contour and get lost. 

Randy


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi Bobingca I also fly with 395 concourse. this year is my 1st year to fly racing pigeons here in USA. for what I know racing pigeon will fly over mountain if they have to but this will be at a certain hieght only. lets say those mountains at San Gabriel were most of the birds from 395 conourse passes every race is about 7,000 feet or more. if you go and watch the birds when they get to that area you will notice that most of them will only go about 100-500 feet and when they pass by that 7,000 feet they all dive in between the mountains at the cajon pass and into the San Bernardino Valley.

by the way here are my results from the 3 races. and I fly the Jasmine Grace Entry . please go to Winchester Flyers Invitational.

http://ndb.phpwebhosting.com/race_r... flyers invitational&DateRace=0&season=2009ob


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Bluecheckard said:


> Hi Bobingca I also fly with 395 concourse. this year is my 1st year to fly racing pigeons here in USA. for what I know racing pigeon will fly over mountain if they have to but this will be at a certain hieght only. lets say those mountains at San Gabriel were most of the birds from 395 conourse passes every race is about 7,000 feet or more. if you go and watch the birds when they get to that area you will notice that most of them will only go about 100-500 feet and when they pass by that 7,000 feet they all dive in between the mountains at the cajon pass and into the San Bernardino Valley.
> 
> by the way here are my results from the 3 races. and I fly the Jasmine Grace Entry
> 
> http://ndb.phpwebhosting.com/race_reports.php?Org=¤None¤&DateRace=0&season=2009ob



Nice results!! Good for you! You said this was your first time flying in the US. So you raced before, but in another country?
You might want to note that anyone who looks at the results wants to go to "Winchester Invitational Flyers"........I went to your web site and found that.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> The two clubs that I have flown with both have mountain issues. The Grand Junction Club flies due North. This puts some of their Southwestern members with Grand Mesa Colorado between them and the first release point. The elevation is around 12,500 feet. Where home is around 5,000 ft. We know the birds fly over the mesa because the come home with mud on their feet from the numerous lakes on top of the mesa.
> 
> The second example is a few of the fliers in Albuquerque live on the East side of the Sandia Mountains 12,200 ft. Abq is 5,000 feet. The fliers release their birds at the top of the crest around 12,000 feet so they get used to going up and over the mountains to go home. They win races on the other side of the mountains. The birds in last years race series flew very high, and usually came dropping straight down. The Eastern birds may have taken them that high.
> 
> ...



That's what everybody here said. And the birds wouldn't have gotten trained far enough to ever see the mountains. I was the one who proposed the schedule, but didn't pay any attention to the terrain. Thankfully, someone spotted it and steered us clear.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> Nice results!! Good for you! You said this was your first time flying in the US. So you raced before, but in another country?
> You might want to note that anyone who looks at the results wants to go to "Winchester Invitational Flyers"........I went to your web site and found that.


Thank you Rene and thank you for reminding me that they need to go to Winchester Flyers Invitational to see my results.

Yes this is my very first time flying in the US. I race pigeons in the Philippines since I was 9 years old. I have to quit in 2001 to move here in US to get married and start a family. late last year I got some late hatches from a good mentor/friend for me to race this old bird season. so far the results shows that they are doing good in the races.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Pear Blossom*

*When I was still racing I was with the SAN DIEGO combine and we flew the 395 course.The first thing the birds come across the high desert so that 7000 mountian is realy only about 2500 on the north and the east side. they will follow the path of least resistance which means they will go between the mountains the Cajone Pass is one there are others.If I was still racing I would take my birds to PEAR BLOSSOM we had a flyer down here that lived in OCEANSIDE that did very good training over PEAR BLOSSOM * GEORGE


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Here in West Virginia,we have some very high HILLS,not really mountains...The birds will not fly OVER them,but around them..Why ?? They know they are safer if they are lower to the ground from hawk attacks....I have watched them for years,and they rarely fly over them,unless they are really high up,because of a really fast tailwind...On race day,for the past 20 years,I could count on ONE hand how many times a race bird has come home "PIN" high.....In NYC where I`m from,that was the expression or word that was used when I bird returning from a race,was so HIGH UP,it looked like the head of a pin....The last time a bird came home to me like that,he had allmost 1900ypm speed...3 hours and 20 minutes from 225 miles...This was 3 or 4 years ago...Alamo


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Alamo said:


> Here in West Virginia,we have some very high HILLS,not really mountains...The birds will not fly OVER them,but around them..Why ?? They know they are safer if they are lower to the ground from hawk attacks....I have watched them for years,and they rarely fly over them,unless they are really high up,because of a really fast tailwind...On race day,for the past 20 years,I could count on ONE hand how many times a race bird has come home "PIN" high.....In NYC where I`m from,that was the expression or word that was used when I bird returning from a race,was so HIGH UP,it looked like the head of a pin....The last time a bird came home to me like that,he had allmost 1900ypm speed...3 hours and 20 minutes from 225 miles...This was 3 or 4 years ago...Alamo


At what point does a "hill" become a "mountain"? And, that's a real question. I'm not trying to be a smarta**.............I've looked at the elevations of the spot that we were SUPPOSED to fly from, but really, I have no idea what's too high to go over.........at what point does the pigeon decide it's best fly around, rather than over?


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> At what point does a "hill" become a "mountain"? And, that's a real question. I'm not trying to be a smarta**.............



here's an answer from:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_t...untain_or_what_makes_a_hill_become_a_mountain


*A mountain is a hill over 2000 feet (609.8m) in height. Anything under that is considered a hill. *








kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

bobinca said:


> I live in southern California with the 395 Concourse race. The San Gabriel mountains are between the release point and my house. I don't know the heights of all the passes, but I'd guess the mountains are around 7,000 feet or so. How high of mountains will pigeons fly over to maintain the "shortest distance" route, and when will they fly further to go around mountains? Any ideas/experiences? Thanks.



hi bobinca,

i also fly the 395 concourse and our san diego club is close to the border of mexico so we're at the far end of the concourse. i guess you may not have to worry about those mountains for my single bird entry has been consistently returning from the last 4 races... 150, 180, 200 and the 250. next weekend will be a 280 mile race for us but on your end maybe it's just 180 miles.

i got a copy last night of the concourse 200 mile report and my single bird entry placed 1039th out of 4200 entries. i may not be on top of the race sheet but with this result it still shows my single bird is better than the other 3161 birds behind her.


kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

george simon said:


> *When I was still racing I was with the SAN DIEGO combine and we flew the 395 course.The first thing the birds come across the high desert so that 7000 mountian is realy only about 2500 on the north and the east side. they will follow the path of least resistance which means they will go between the mountains the Cajone Pass is one there are others.If I was still racing I would take my birds to PEAR BLOSSOM we had a flyer down here that lived in OCEANSIDE that did very good training over PEAR BLOSSOM * GEORGE



where exactly is pear blossom?



kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

We have a Pear Blossem Hwy here in the Antelope Valley....could this be what you're talking about George? That area is full of mountains it's off of the 14 freeway.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

*question?*



Bluecheckard said:


> Hi Bobingca I also fly with 395 concourse. this year is my 1st year to fly racing pigeons here in USA. for what I know racing pigeon will fly over mountain if they have to but this will be at a certain hieght only. lets say those mountains at San Gabriel were most of the birds from 395 conourse passes every race is about 7,000 feet or more. if you go and watch the birds when they get to that area you will notice that most of them will only go about 100-500 feet and when they pass by that 7,000 feet they all dive in between the mountains at the cajon pass and into the San Bernardino Valley.


jeff,

since this is also my first time to fly, i am wonderin' why does the concourse have to release always in the north direction? i plotted all the release stations thru google earth and you'll notice that. why not release them on easterly direction so that it will be fair to everybody like us which is at the very south end of the concourse? or release them in mexico and our birds will head home first...lol

the last station is about 635 miles from us. are you gonna send your birds there? i want to acquire birds for this long race which line of birds are best for this race?










kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

Gerald the reason why they always release at the north direction is that the combine is following the path of 395 freeway going up notrh to oregon and this is the reason why they name the combine 395 concourse. wish also that they release on east side so that way those guys from the high desert don't get thier birds before us...

my plan was to fly only up to mono lake that's about 330 miles for me. I don't want to push the birds that i have to far because they are late hatches and I planing to join the sprint series in april.

I am not an expert when it come to lines but some people say delbars are good long distance birds.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*pear blossom*



kalapati said:


> where exactly is pear blossom?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


* Hi Kalapati, Pearblossom is on rt. 138 between the junction of RT18 and Palmdale about half way between those two points.Its about 130 air miles from San Diego. Driving distance is much further by car.Are you located on the west side of the combine? There are two other places that are up there Pinon Hills and Phelan these are also along RT138 and they are shorter drive time. By the way what club do you fly with? * GEORGE


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> We have a Pear Blossem Hwy here in the Antelope Valley....could this be what you're talking about George? That area is full of mountains it's off of the 14 freeway.



hi henry, i found it thru google earth and you're right:











and this is how it relates with the concourse. if you have google earth on your PC you can navigate your mouse to all possible birds flight and it will tell you the land elevation at the bottom. it's very cool.













kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

george simon said:


> * Hi Kalapati, Pearblossom is on rt. 138 between the junction of RT18 and Palmdale about half way between those two points.Its about 130 air miles from San Diego. Driving distance is much further by car.Are you located on the west side of the combine? There are two other places that are up there Pinon Hills and Phelan these are also along RT138 and they are shorter drive time. By the way what club do you fly with? * GEORGE



thanks george. i'm with the san diego racing club.


kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bobinca said:


> I live in southern California with the 395 Concourse race. The San Gabriel mountains are between the release point and my house. I don't know the heights of all the passes, but I'd guess the mountains are around 7,000 feet or so. How high of mountains will pigeons fly over to maintain the "shortest distance" route, and when will they fly further to go around mountains? Any ideas/experiences? Thanks.


Thanks to the new GPS device which is available, you can take one of your birds and run down the road 500 miles or so, and then track it's flight path back home. That is, if the unit itself does not cause the bird to go down. That way you will know for sure, and all this guess work can be put to rest. 

We fly over the Blue Ridge Mountains...and the debate of if they go over or around etc, as been going on for decades. Now, for a few hundreds dollars, we can finally figure it all out !


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I thought I posted a video where it shows that pigeon adapts to a certain condition. It was on the gps thread at one time. Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MeuT-YygQ8


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Lovebirds,that is a great question,(and I don`t get mad about good questions),and I didn`t know the answer,untill I went on the google site for the answer...The HILLS that my birds have to fly around are under the 2,000 ft ...We do have members in our combine that their birds HAVE to fly either over/around the Applicahian Mountain Range...These flyers are located long end in Western Pa,and in Maryland...According to the Maryland guys,the birds will find a ROUTE/PASS in between to fly through,and not go OVER unless there is no kind of PASS so to speak for them to use...I would say,when I go to the Maryland club in Lavale,MD,I use I-68...(4 lane road),that the birds will fly over the highway,since it takes them pretty much straight home to that area....It would make alot of sence,since it would be easy,and the road cuts through all the mountain ranges...I think the highest one is 2,800 or 2,900 ft above sea level...This is the two that the road goes through...There are higher ones,that the road does not go through......Alamo


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* There are a few things that you on the east coast need to understand first the 395 race course has mountains that are much higher then any thing that you have back east.The 395 Concourse and the SAN DIEGO combine follow RT395 northward over the SAN GABRIEL mountains across the MOJAVE DESERT to the east side of the SIERRA NEVADA MOUNTAINS, following RT395 all the way to our 600 mile race station.Our birds for the most part follow RT 395 as that is the line of least resistance,until they reach the MOJAVE DESERT here it becomes flat(about 100 miles) until they reach the SAN GABRIEL Mts . From the longer races 450- 600 these birds have been on the wing for the better part of the day and they are at this time tired they are not going to fly over these mountains they come thru the passes going around this last barrier, and we do get day birds even with these barriers that our birds must over come. *GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I have heard people talk about how and where birds fly to get home for decades now. And everyone speaks with such authority. My stupid question is, how does everyone know that birds fly through this pass, or over that hill ? I mean were they followed by an airplane, did someone use a GPS device ? Just seems to me that a lot of assumptions are made concerning wind resistance etc. But, if my birds are released from point C, which is 330 miles away...how can anybody be so sure what path the birds are taking, on any given day ? And when the winds appear constant, why do they do 1550 YPM one week, and 1050 the next ? They apparently didn't take the exact same path.


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

There are many factors that possibly affect the route a birds decide to go. It might be then same conditions at the release point but some sections of the race course/ path would have clouds, upwind, tailwind, cross wind, rain, fog, smoke, fire, predators, etc.... On any given day, being pigeons are so smart, they will make the necessary flight path changes along the way. I have observed this with my birds. I would ask a friend to toss them at a certain location and I'll be waiting at a location that i predict will be their path to home but due to different conditions I would see them passing thru at a slight different elevation on even totally different route. I even had a day where I sat there waiting with binoculars in hand for them to pass but not one of them I saw and then I got a call from home that they were already back.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

This debate will be never ending, even with the GPS. I am willing to bet that even if released at the same spot each time the birds will take different routes home. This is because they will confront different issues each time, (Hawks, storms, winds...). But of course it is only my opinion. Science has been trying to figure this one out since it learned pigeons could home. I'm just glad they come home.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I have heard people talk about how and where birds fly to get home for decades now. And everyone speaks with such authority. My stupid question is, how does everyone know that birds fly through this pass, or over that hill ? I mean were they followed by an airplane, did someone use a GPS device ? Just seems to me that a lot of assumptions are made concerning wind resistance etc. But, if my birds are released from point C, which is 330 miles away...how can anybody be so sure what path the birds are taking, on any given day ? And when the winds appear constant, why do they do 1550 YPM one week, and 1050 the next ? They apparently didn't take the exact same path.


 Well the mountians that your birds fly over back east are nothing more then sand dunes that your birds can fly over,so I don't doubt that your birds do fly over them. ..GEORGE


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