# Female on top?



## Ammonite

A pair of pigeons visit my balcony every day, who I call Devilbacon* (the male) and Devileggs (the female). I've watched them raise two broods. 

This morning I saw them flirting on the balcony, then they mated. Only Devileggs was on top! I thought I had the wrong pigeons for a minute, but nope, it was them. I've seen them mate before and Devilbacon always was on top, which to me confirmed my guess that he was the male.

I've never heard of "swapping" positions in any bird!





* About the names: they were named after a pair of turtledoves - Bacon and Eggs - who were the original visitors of the balcony. I was afraid this new pair of pigeons would drive them away (they didn't).


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## blongboy

Ammonite said:


> A pair of pigeons visit my balcony every day, who I call Devilbacon* (the male) and Devileggs (the female). I've watched them raise two broods.
> 
> This morning I saw them flirting on the balcony, then they mated. Only Devileggs was on top! I thought I had the wrong pigeons for a minute, but nope, it was them. I've seen them mate before and Devilbacon always was on top, which to me confirmed my guess that he was the male.
> 
> I've never heard of "swapping" positions in any bird!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * About the names: they were named after a pair of turtledoves - Bacon and Eggs - who were the original visitors of the balcony. I was afraid this new pair of pigeons would drive them away (they didn't).


it happens sometime


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## Budd

Are you two implying that pigeons have both male and female sex organs? The only time i ever saw my female pigeon on top of the male was after she accidentally landed on him.


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## Skyeking

Budd said:


> * * Are you two implying that pigeons have both male and female sex organs? *The only time i ever saw my female pigeon on top of the male was after she accidentally landed on him.


* No, they sometimes just switch positions.


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## Garye

I guess they like "variety".


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## sreeshs

I think the science guys haven't done much research on these aspects with pigeons. Is there other references of switching mating positions in other bird species or is it common in birds ? I haven't seen this with sparrows or budgerigars.


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## Budd

The female couldn't possibly be going through the same motions that a male pigeon does when he is on top. Female pigeons will sometimes end up on top of a male pigeon while grooming them.


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## gingerpoo

My female has done the exact same shwishy shwishy butt rubbing motions as my male has. Although she is not dominant enough to mount him, she has done it to the bed while she was making out with my balled up hand.

Just a matter of testosterone levels I think


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## Budd

I'll have to see it to believe it. Female pigeons have nothing to penetrate the males with and male pigeons don't lay eggs so their is nothing to fertilize. It may be a testosterone imbalance as gingerpoo wrote.


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## Siam Sam

We saw it happen once or twice early on with our original pair of balcony pigeons, Big Pidgee and Little Pidee. Confused the heck out of us. Then they settled into the routine of Big Pidgee on top.


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## sreeshs

Budd said:


> I'll have to see it to believe it. Female pigeons have nothing to penetrate the males with and male pigeons don't lay eggs so their is nothing to fertilize. It may be a testosterone imbalance as gingerpoo wrote.


 That would be something about which I would like to kindly disagree


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## shawn arnold

It happens, I even had a cock who would do his thing to the floor (concrete).


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## Pawbla

Lol! I guess they like to change, kinda like people...?


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## Budd

This discussion is totally unreal to me. Female pigeons can't do what everyone claims that they think they saw. Me and my girlfriend have been observing feral pigeons for well over ten years independently (Rehabbing for 4 years) and never observed female pigeons simulating male sex with a male pigeon. It's impossible!!! I've seen most of the odd videos on youtube about MALE animals humping anything. Their are no videos of female animals of any kind pretending that they are males !!! Female pigeons can't simulate male sex unless they have a male sex organ !!! None of you people on here have any common sense!!! You pigeon talk people can't tell the difference between a male and a female pigeon!!!


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## Budd

Everyone on here has a pigeon and knows very little about behavior.


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## Budd

Female pigeons don't have a penis !!! surprise !!!


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## Budd

Negative replies about my response are from the ill informed.


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## Budd

I like Pawbla. Sreeshs, Come on be serious !!! Do some research first!


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## sreeshs

Budd said:


> Female pigeons don't have a penis !!! surprise !!! check between your own legs you ignorant idiots!!!


Female pigeons don't have a penis, agreed, but what makes you think that a male pigeon has a penis ? 

"An external phallus is called a penis" - Have you ever seen a penis in the male pigeon ? Also do not confuse testes with penis

Reproduction in birds (including pigeons):

"In the males of species without a phallus, sperm is stored in the semenal glomera within the *cloacal* protuberance prior to copulation. During copulation, the female moves her tail to the side and the male either mounts the female from behind or in front (in the stitchbird), or moves very close to her. The cloacae then touch, so that the sperm can enter the female's reproductive tract. This can happen very fast, sometimes in less than half a second"

"In zoological anatomy, a *cloaca* is the posterior opening that serves as the only such opening for the intestinal, reproductive, and urinary tracts of certain animal species. All birds, reptiles, and amphibians possess this orifice, from which they excrete both urine and feces, unlike placental mammals, which possess two separate orifices for evacuation."

"Birds reproduce with this organ; this is known as a cloacal kiss. Birds that mate using this method touch their cloacae for only a few seconds, sufficient time for sperm to be transferred from the male to the female."

Its a separate discussion on whether a sperm transfer happens during a cloacal kiss irrespective of whether male or female is on top. The part is in the contact of cloaca and not any insertion as in humans and other animal species

I would like to hear what other members have to comment on these extracts. 

Come on guys, how does your lovely pigeon pals reproduce ???


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## Garye

Budd,
You do realize that some of us here were only joking, though I do believe that a female was seen on a male.

I also believe what Shreeshs is saying, which is about the most intelligent thing I've read in this post. I have a feeling he's right.

I never saw a penis on a pigeon so maybe this cloacal kiss theory is correct.


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## spirit wings

I think I will go with what blongboy said... it happens... and it does happen here right on my front porch, I have seen it with my own eyeballs... so it is not IMPOSSIBLE, they are just role playing.. young birds can do this as well. so for someone to say were all lying and he is the expert pigeon person is just ridiculous.


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## Ammonite

I'm not lying... this is what I saw! It was exactly the same as normal mating, and I wouldn't have thought anything of it if I wasn't aware of the sexes. 

Pigeons don't have penises... both sexes have cloacas. I don't know if actual cloacal touching occurred, but that's what they were trying to do! 

I take it that this is extremely rare behaviour then


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## Guest

Ammonite said:


> I'm not lying... this is what I saw! It was exactly the same as normal mating, and I wouldn't have thought anything of it if I wasn't aware of the sexes.
> 
> Pigeons don't have penises... both sexes have cloacas. I don't know if actual cloacal touching occurred, but that's what they were trying to do!
> 
> I take it that this is extremely rare behaviour then


its not rare at all and I have seen this many times where the females mount a male just the same as when I have seen males mount males and so on.. pigeons.. not sure why they do it but they do it alot and its not just when they are young ..why would anyone doubt it as a fact as its been brought up on this forum more then a few time


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## Siam Sam

Ammonite said:


> I'm not lying... this is what I saw! It was exactly the same as normal mating, and I wouldn't have thought anything of it if I wasn't aware of the sexes.
> 
> Pigeons don't have penises... both sexes have cloacas. I don't know if actual cloacal touching occurred, but that's what they were trying to do!
> 
> I take it that this is extremely rare behaviour then


Nor was I lying when I said the wife and I both saw it. I don't know if Budd is posting while drunk or what, but personally I find him getting a little on the abusive side with his language, especially his Post #14. Thus, I have gone into my User CP and activated him on my Ignore list, so I don't have to be bothered with his sort of childish ranting. A pity, because everyone else on the Board is always so civil.


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## Pisciottano

*Fermale on top?*

I have been watching feral pigeons in my balcony since 2005 and have never seen this, however since mating only needs the two cloacae to touch what does it matter who is on top? The female will still be the one to lay the eggs and take the night shift sitting on them, right?

Gladys


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## Margarret

Budd said:


> This discussion is totally unreal to me. Female pigeons can't do what everyone claims that they think they saw. Me and my girlfriend have been observing feral pigeons for well over ten years independently (Rehabbing for 4 years) and never observed female pigeons simulating male sex with a male pigeon. It's impossible!!! I've seen most of the odd videos on youtube about MALE animals humping anything. Their are no videos of female animals of any kind pretending that they are males !!! Female pigeons can't simulate male sex unless they have a male sex organ !!! None of you people on here have any common sense!!! You pigeon talk people can't tell the difference between a male and a female pigeon!!!


Budd, it is not unusual for a female pigeon to go through the whole mating ritual, the feeding and mounting of a male or another female pigeon. I've seen it many times. Pigeon folks often refer to them as "cocky hens". And I know the boys from the girls in my loft. At times two hens or two cocks will pair up. At present I have two hens paired as well as a pair of cocks who take turns 'on top' and are solidly paired. I've tried breaking them up and they just aren't interested in hens. Just because there isn't a video, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Margaret


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## garacari

sreeshs said:


> I think the science guys haven't done much research on these aspects with pigeons. Is there other references of switching mating positions in other bird species or is it common in birds ? I haven't seen this with sparrows or budgerigars.


Very common. I can speak strongly for toucans (I spent time studying them - and have two green aracaris) and it happens on a regular basis.


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## Elizabethy

I've seen it with some of my hens. One of my couples often "swaps places" and does it again with the hen on top.

I've also had single pij simulate sex (masturbate?) on the ground and my green cheek conure (small parrot) masturbates with one of his toys and makes funny little noises while doing so. 

Sex is a rich and complex thing.


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## Guest

not sure why this is so hard to believe myself


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## Garye

Like people, they just like variety.


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## Ammonite

Hahaha, I'm glad to hear this, thanks for the replies. My cockatiel likes humping hands.

Yesterday, I saw the two pigeons mate, then they swapped positions and mated again!


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## Pigeonkidd

I've actually just now seen my female pigeon get on top of the male... I was so confused and just because you have ten years under your belt as a so call pigeon observer doesn't mean it doesn't happen.. You and your wife are only two people and there are millions of pigeons.. I can honestly say my female pigeon got on top of my male and tried to mate... She got on top turned to an angle flapped her wings and tried rubbing her "vent" on his..


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## Mihir

Hen mounting the male is not uncommon in Pigeons. On many ocassions I have seen the male having finished mounting the female, will crouch down and allow the female to mount. Some females do mount & few just walk away. 

I have also seen female trying to mount male who is not in the mood of mating. 

However whether the male mounts or the female mounts successful mating occurs.


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## BHenderson

Pigeons mate by what is called a "coital kiss". The male does not penetrate the female as far as I read, they simply touch the appropriate area's together and there is an exchange of sperm. It does not really matter who is on top as long as this "kiss" happens, and the female can maneuver herself into the right position as well as the male, its just that males being dominant tend to be on top.
I have noticed this behavior more in established couples that have been mating for some time, the male will mate first and will then adopt the submissive position and the female will climb on top. She is usually more clumsy about it, but I do not think this matters as it is a way for the pair to make their relationship stronger.


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## longlive_pigeon

What I observe about my feral flocks is that sometimes the male come on top first. Then, when they seem to finish the intercourse, the male then squats and the female rides on the male. I also wonder why. And which moment is the intercourse really taking place


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## BHenderson

When the pigeon on top starts to flap his wings very fast, he is getting himself into exactly the right position so the "coital kiss" can take place, so I guess you could say that is when the sperm is exchanged.


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## Pijlover

Interesting subject!!!
keep on talking


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## anhmytran

I saw that happen with Horse, Dog, Pig as happen with Pigeons.
However, I do not see the female Horse, Dog, Pig, and Pigeons penetrating anything.
That I am sure. They are flat. Only male animals can have something lumping up.
*
I saw that many times, sine I was a boy, in countryside, where wild animals and domestic animals were running free, and they were free to do whatever they like.
*


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## Painted Skies Loft

This has happened with my pair as well it seems like a way for her to stimulate him to mate with her I think... Also it probably has to do with dominance or a portion of testosterone bring in the hen as well as the cock...


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## rubin1982

One thing to try if you're stuck on it, reverse cowgirl. While you're on top you face his feet rather than his face and you sort of make a movement like riding a horse. Most guys love this! Lastly, instead of the typical pumping action, you can break it up with a little hip twirl. He will last a while when you break it up like that because most men work off of a rhythm. When the pattern is broken they have to build back up and the end result is magic!


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## anhmytran

rubin1982: when girl riding to opposite direction, does she break his rod?


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## Shehen

Females who mount the cock tend to hatch male squabs only..i have 2 pair of pigeons where the hens mount on the cock and they only bring male babies


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## Pijlover

Shehen said:


> Females who mount the cock tend to hatch male squabs only..i have 2 pair of pigeons where the hens mount on the cock and they only bring male babies


That's interesting to know, i have seen some of my hen doing the same i'll check with my records if they had only hatched boys


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## Gold cheddar

I also have a pair of homing pigeons that switch positions.... it's quite funny isn't it. I laugh each time I see them doing it. But the annoying part is that they've never laid any eggs and they've mated for about a hundred times


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## Crusso69

i have a pair of tipplets which i observed the female mount the male after she made numerous attempts for him to mount her. i think she was teaching him how because he learned how to get on top


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## Ralzion

Ammonite said:


> A pair of pigeons visit my balcony every day, who I call Devilbacon* (the male) and Devileggs (the female). I've watched them raise two broods.
> 
> This morning I saw them flirting on the balcony, then they mated. Only Devileggs was on top! I thought I had the wrong pigeons for a minute, but nope, it was them. I've seen them mate before and Devilbacon always was on top, which to me confirmed my guess that he was the male.
> 
> I've never heard of "swapping" positions in any bird!
> 
> 
> 
> I too have two pigeons....male and female.... surprisingly the female also sits on top very frequently. Then I thought both are males....but now I see an egg on my balcony....still trying to figure out which is which.
> 
> * About the names: they were named after a pair of turtledoves - Bacon and Eggs - who were the original visitors of the balcony. I was afraid this new pair of pigeons would drive them away (they didn't).


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## Ralzion

I too have two pigeons....male and female.... surprisingly the female also sits on top very frequently. Then I thought both are males....but now I see an egg on my balcony....still trying to figure out which is which...coz at night the supposed female is not sitting over the eggs..


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## pigeonwatch

Budd said:


> I'll have to see it to believe it. Female pigeons have nothing to penetrate the males with and male pigeons don't lay eggs so their is nothing to fertilize. It may be a testosterone imbalance as gingerpoo wrote.


Hey, a little bit late but i have a video of it ;D


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## Dee Lovelite

Budd said:


> This discussion is totally unreal to me. Female pigeons can't do what everyone claims that they think they saw. Me and my girlfriend have been observing feral pigeons for well over ten years independently (Rehabbing for 4 years) and never observed female pigeons simulating male sex with a male pigeon. It's impossible!!! I've seen most of the odd videos on youtube about MALE animals humping anything. Their are no videos of female animals of any kind pretending that they are males !!! Female pigeons can't simulate male sex unless they have a male sex organ !!! None of you people on here have any common sense!!! You pigeon talk people can't tell the difference between a male and a female pigeon!!!


Budd sorry but you are 100% wrong. I've been breeding pigeons for years and on occasion the female WILL mount the male and do exactly as the male does. Go educate yourself instead of being a know it all. As for why the females do this I have no idea.


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## Mogapi Gobuamang

Ammonite said:


> A pair of pigeons visit my balcony every day, who I call Devilbacon* (the male) and Devileggs (the female). I've watched them raise two broods.
> 
> This morning I saw them flirting on the balcony, then they mated. Only Devileggs was on top! I thought I had the wrong pigeons for a minute, but nope, it was them. I've seen them mate before and Devilbacon always was on top, which to me confirmed my guess that he was the male.
> 
> I've never heard of "swapping" positions in any bird!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * About the names: they were named after a pair of turtledoves - Bacon and Eggs - who were the original visitors of the balcony. I was afraid this new pair of pigeons would drive them away (they didn't).


Yes the male is always on top but I have noticed that in the old relationships they can interchange without a problem


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## Mogapi Gobuamang

Dee Lovelite said:


> Budd sorry but you are 100% wrong. I've been breeding pigeons for years and on occasion, the female WILL mount the male and do exactly as the male does. Go educate yourself instead of being a know it all. As for why the females do this I have no idea.


They can interchange and I have seen on several occasions two females mating together, the other female will pretend to be a male. If you take them and give them very aggressive cocks they will give babies. lesbian kind off


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