# New member in Scotland (UK - for now!)



## Florencevegan

Hello  Is anyone on this site feeding pigeons in Scotland? I feed a street flock but it's scary as I am not popular for it. There is nothing for the birds to eat as we humans have built on all their habitat. They are the best thing about my part of town.  
Florencevegan


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## Pidgey

There's at least one Scottish member, I'm trying to think of the name...

Anyhow, welcome aboard! We'll be glad to hear any stories you've got, look at any pictures you've taken and help with any crisis you come upon.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

This is a thread by one of our Scottish members (although it's not about a pigeon):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19218

Pidgey


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## Charis

Hi Florencevegan,
I suspect that most places you would go, would look upon you in an unfavorable way for feeding the pigeons. Thank you for doing it anyway. Don't stop.You're right in that the grocery is never open if you are a feral pigeon.
Here at least, you will be applauded for your kindness.


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## Feefo

Hi Florencevegan,

I don't think any of us pigeon feeders are particularly popular with some people. I have become a middle aged "hoodie" when I take food into town..

I like to think that the people that object both to pigeons and pigeon lovers/feeders are a minority, just a particularly loud, foul mouthed and ignorant minority.

Last week a colleague of mine picked up a badly injured pigeon. The kind person who had placed him out of the way of traffic said that it had been hit by a car, then added that her boss had sent him a message. I dare say you can imagine what that message was!

Cynthia


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## Rooster2312

Welcome to pigeon Talk Florencevegan  

I'm from Dundee and the only other member from Scotland that I can recall.

Good for you feeding the pigeons, it's great to have another Scot on board who is deeply passionate about pigeon welfare.

I have two pet pigeons, Jax who I've kept for over 3 years, and my new addition Paddy who is a lost Irish racing pigeon.

You'll really enjoy Pigeon talk, it's my most favourite place to hang out. We are one big pigeon loving family here .

Lindi


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## PigeonQueen

Hello Florencevegan, A big welcome to Pigeon Talk!!!
Don't know anyone in Scotland who feeds feral flocks, but keep posting and someone will eventually come on line.

I get a lot of grief when feeding in the town where I live.
I tend to feed 'mixed corn' which I buy from pets at home. You can buy a huge bag for £5.59p and it's not noticable like bread. Also if you have to catch a sick piggie it's easier as they flock around the seed pecking.

Is there alot of hostility in your town towards piggies? Where I live they have culled but a group of us now monitor our piggies and try to keep them safe.

We get a lot of string injury piggies, so I take a fine pair of scissors and a seam splitter from the sewing shop.
This was Cynthia's idea, and it works brilliantly when removing string/line from piggies feet.

Look forward to hearing your news. Keep posting!

Bye for now. Jayne


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## Reti

Hi and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. 
Thank you for feeding and looking out for our feral pigeons. 
Most of us who feed the ferals in almost any part of the world get the "looks" from other people who dislike them.
If they only knew what adorable birds they are.

Reti


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## pdpbison

Florencevegan said:


> Hello  Is anyone on this site feeding pigeons in Scotland? I feed a street flock but it's scary as I am not popular for it. There is nothing for the birds to eat as we humans have built on all their habitat. They are the best thing about my part of town.
> Florencevegan



Hi Florencevegan,



Welcome..!


I wish I was feeding Pigeons in Scotland..!

I am feeding them in Sunny Las Vegas Nevada...



Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Garye

Hey! Welcome aboard! I also sometimes get harassed for feeding the ferals. Like today, this guy in a black car pulled up beside the pigeons to prevent them from getting anything from me. So I said, "C'mon guys! We'll go somewhere else." And would you believe it? The pigeons followed me over to another spot where the harasser couldn't bother us. All the harasser could do is watch because I made sure the pigeons were between a parking lot light pole and my car along with several other cars whose owners worked in the stores and wouldn't be out until late at night. They were surrounded by protection.  

We were together once again enjoying each other's company.


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## amyable

*Pigeon Feeders Anonymous*

Hi Florencevegan, 

just caught your thread. I have to admit to previously being a closet pigeon feeder!! My daughters used to be embarassed when we went into town when they were younger. I always carried some food in my pockets, and made every effort not to be seen dropping it behind me as I walked along. The giveaway was the trail of pigeons following me though!!!

I found this forum last week when I was searching for some help for an injured pigeon. I can't tell you what a relief it was to come out of the closet!!!!!!
-----------------------------
P.S. Phil, Las Vegas,

Will be there next month for a couple of days, glad to know the pigeons are well catered for by you, so I won't have to carry food with me when I'm there then!!

Amyable


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## Feefo

> I always carried some food in my pockets, and made every effort not to be seen dropping it behind me as I walked along. The giveaway was the trail of pigeons following me though!!!


LOL! I did the same and thought I was being very discreet until someone once came up to me and said "Do you know that you are leaving a trail of bird seed behind you? It's like something from Babes in the Woods"

Cynthia


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## Florencevegan

Gosh. I mean, Wow. Thank you all so very much for the warm welcomes and I am just overjoyed to meet so many other pigeon-lovers. Tears. I read the story about your little bird in February, Lindi. What was the ending? Hopefully a new start for him. I will write my stories soon. Exhausted from gardening, our one day of sunshine this year. I have been writing to the New York group Pijn People and feel so guilty they actually rescue birds daily and give them homes. I can't do that in my situation, though I have sent a couple to a Rescue in the past, but the guy there breaks their necks and I can't bear it. Do you folks know of the Save the Trafalgar Square Pigeons group? I wear their badge now, out of the closet. One of you scared me from coming on here by mentioning a cull. I don't sleep when I think of it and worry it will be my fault for letting the flock reproduce by not starving. We are losing our waster ground to yet more building and I don't sleep worrying about that too, where we will feed. The pigeons, gulls, starlings, sparrows are my passion, my life, my world, my messengers from the Universe and, who knows, the Divine. Apart from my girl Grace (a cat), who does not get near the flocks, fear not. Just now my problem is trying to get some food into the gull family. They don't come till the pigeons have eaten it all, which means the pigeons are getting too much. They do need more in school holidays though, as there are no dropped lunches, chips, pizzas, noodles, kebabs. The road sweeper is far too good but at least the birds have a short time to swoop after the kids' unintentional generosity. 
Florence. PS I am not saying what city I am in. Big Brother is watching us and they are not shooting my boys and girls. Or ASBO-ing or evicting me. We have to protect ourselves so that we are not caged ourselves because our lovey doveys would starve without us.


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## Florencevegan

Me again. I don't understand this "Quick Reply" and "Post Reply". How can I get our messages sent to my e-mail Inbox, and only these ones about Feral Pigeons? I am so confused. I did not know any of you had replied to me, as I thought group mails came to my e-mail, as on yahoo groups. Sorry to be such an old Luddite and Ignoramus with the technology. Florence.


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## Florencevegan

I meant to ask, too, am I a squab because I am new ? What an honour! What do I graduate to after squab?
Florencevegan


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## Florencevegan

I have just noticed that it gives my city on every post. I may withdraw as I am very nervous about this. I don't even know how to leave the group now. I don't want to leave really. I hope The Powers That Be can't trace me with just a first name and a city, but who knows.. Is everyone this scared?
Florence


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## Lovebirds

This forum doesn't work like the yahoo groups. You have to come here, log in and read replies. If you will look up at the top of the page and click on User CP, you can go in and change th information about yourself.


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## Lovebirds

Click on Edit Profile..........and delete whatever you don't want there. Don't leave us now!!  You just got here. LOL


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## Victor

Florencevegan said:


> I meant to ask, too, am I a squab because I am new ? What an honour! What do I graduate to after squab?
> Florencevegan


Welcome to our wonderful forum, where one may let their feathers hang out! 

After *squab*, you advance to *Young Bird*, then your a *Pigeon*.

If you post even more, then you become a *Senior Bird.*

Last but not least, you graduate to *Matriarch* (a sore spot with me, so we won't talk about that!)


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## roy-me-boy

Florencevegan said:


> I have just noticed that it gives my city on every post. I may withdraw as I am very nervous about this. I don't even know how to leave the group now. I don't want to leave really. I hope The Powers That Be can't trace me with just a first name and a city, but who knows.. Is everyone this scared?
> Florence


Hi there Florencevegan,lovely to have you on the forum.Don`t worry about your location showing.Who`s to know that really is where you are from?


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## Feefo

Hi Florence,

You can amend your profile so that it just reads "Scotland" , all your previous posts will be amended too.

I also got a bit paranoid about advertising where I was (and where I was feeding the pigeons) , so I changed my location to England.

But isn't it ridiculous that we feel we should go underground just because we feed the birds?

If you put down mixed corn for the pigeons and soaked dog biscuits for the gulls they will all get enough.

Cynthia


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## PigeonQueen

Hi Florence, I was also paranoid when I first joined. Please don't worry , you can withdraw or change any details about yourself. 
Also you dont have to give any personal information in your posts- just keep posting!!!!
No one wants to pry in to your personal life, but so many want to help here.
The support I have had since joining this site is immense.
I felt totally alone, thought I was the only one that had problems feeding piggies in town, had no one to share my despair, or also the good, funny, sad times.
You can come online here and share all your grief, joy ,anything, and you will get a good response.
People here are very caring and compassionate when it comes to the Piggie!!!!!
You will also learn alot about piggies.
Please don't worry, Glasgow is a huge place, No one will know who you are-just dont send a picture of yourself!!!!
Pictures of piggies are great fun and we all love them here ! Perhaps you could post some pictures of your ferals!
My very best wishes. Jayne UK.


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## Chris Y

Welcome Florence, and don't be afraid of 'Big Brother'. It's unlikely anyone's going to hunt you down for the things you write here, even if you give an exact address!

You mentioned: "though I have sent a couple to a Rescue in the past, but the guy there breaks their necks and I can't bear it.". I think you need to find a better rescue centre. Most of the ones worth their salt will not just euthanase pigeons on sight just because they're pigeons and somehow less 'worthy' than other species.

I work (well, volunteer) for a rescue centre myself, and we only ever resort to that sort of thing when the bird absolutely cannot be released (i.e. can't learn to cope with it's injury) and cannot be re-homed for whatever reason. Not all centres have the resources to keep injured birds for a long time, but I believe they should all be given a chance. Only recently there was a story on a 'companion' forum (Starling Talk) about a Goldfinch that had half the skin on its back missing, and the internal organs were exposed. A lot of people wouldn't have given that any sort of chance, and would probably have put it to sleep, but it survived and as far as I know, it's still alive a couple of weeks later. Each case needs evaluating on merit, and it's frustrating to hear of places that just euthanise immediately. Pigeons deserve better.

Sorry about the rant, there - got a bit carried away!


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## Becca199212

*aren't*



pdpbison said:


> Hi Florencevegan,
> 
> I wish I was feeding Pigeons in Scotland..!
> 
> I am feeding them in Sunny Las Vegas Nevada...
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Way to rub it in! The news said that yesterday would be the hottest day of our summer, it rained.

Hey Florance!
I honestly wouldn't worry about being hunted down on here after all people aren't going to come on here to find out who was feeding the birds in town today are they?


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## Feefo

.


> Only recently there was a story on a 'companion' forum (Starling Talk) about a Goldfinch that had half the skin on its back missing, and the internal organs were exposed. A lot of people wouldn't have given that any sort of chance, and would probably have put it to sleep, but it survived and as far as I know, it's still alive a couple of weeks later.


Thanks for sharing that Chris, I hope the goldfinch makes it. I had a stock dove like that, sadly it died but I think that was because it started to struggle and reopened internal wounds. Pigeons are survivors because they are less likely to suffer from shock when they are handled and they heal so much faster than we do.

Cynthia



Cynthia


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## Florencevegan

*Thank you all so much, yet again, for replying to me. Becca, I liked your poem about angels so much, I was going to Google to see who Becca was, maybe a pop writer, then realised it was you! Duh! It is exactly what I feel about angels, connected up with birds and filling me with love not my own.*You have a Senior Bird's wisdom at a young age! 
It is nice to be a Squab. I just hope I get fed till I can reach that nice human with the seeds.  Flap flap, these wings are no good yet...
I am exhausted again as I leafletted today for caged hens and it was awful, nobody cared. Tell a lie, a couple of people stopped and said battery farms were terrible and they would send the postcards asking Tesco to go cage-free for their eggs. 
Well, I don't know, if I got an ASBO then the most likely place for Big Judgie to look for my going on would be a site with a lot of Pigeons talking! (Psst, don't coo on me, guys.)
The gulls ate more today. There are smaller ones with black heads. They bring me oceans, to my terrible scrap heap. I say to the pijons, Let me get up on my rock, peep peep. I stand on a piece of rubble and imagine I am on a cliff and at one with the world. Well, UK dwellers, the sky was blue today (between the clouds). Ask the winged ones. I love to look upwards and throw the bread, and the gulls try to catch it mid flight, our wee game. I say KAKAK. Like them.
Meanwhile lots of my boys are chasing the pigeons girls and I say, "Leave her alone to get her tea, we've got enough babies". ;-) 
I won't leave now, Lovebirds. 
Sorry you're a Matriarch, Victor! Where is Home of the College World Series? Excuse my ignorance. 
Chris, rant away. Interesting you are down there in Cheshire, not so far away and I have a cousin there.
Jayne also in UK. This is great. :-D
Roy-me-boy, would I lie about where I live?! (Wish I had...)I went to a couple of conferences (theology) in Leicester and lots of people came from Loughborough. 
One good thing about the rotten weather is that the stoners and trappers don't come out so much. The teenagers love to scream and scare the pigeons away. Then they are terrified when the flock circles over their heads. People always duck! 
My cat has just jumped up on my lap to see all the pigeons. Sorry, imposs to type now, I am on stroking duties. See you soon. Make patterns with the seed trails to see pictures made of tails. :-D
Florencevegan the Scottish squab, new kid in the flock.


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## Becca199212

Thanks, I don't know who actually said it, it wasn't me but I found it on a quote site without a name under it. Sorry to hear not many people were interested in your poastcards, I will print one off and send it away if you scan it onto the computer and send it to me!


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## Florencevegan

Thanks, Becca. I am not sure I could scan it though. Even if I knew how, it is a bit complicated. I think that was partly the problem. We have to tear it into 3 postcards for Tesco HQ in Scotland, in England and one to Advocates for Animals in Edinburgh. A bit like our Election papers! Too hard for us old birds! Anyway, today was very different. I got another 24 away (none left) to people who seemed concerned and keen to send them. I was so happy. Maybe people have now heard that the bomb scares on Tesco on Saturday throughout the UK were nothing at all to do with animal activists, as was first rumoured, which did not help our campaign. The big group who did the city centre (not saying which one!) had more success but there are more likely to be the kind of people who think about these things in the city centre, and they also had somebody dressed in a chicken costume. (I don't like the dressing up scene. I think it takes away from the dignity of the animals). I have never seen an animal campaign in this suburb in my entire life, so maybe just being here, on my own, made people think, and one thought leads to another. Heads did turn when I said that each hen only has a cage the size of an A4 piece of paper to live their entire life in. A fate worse than death.
Florence. PS The quote may not have been yours but you chose a beautiful and profound quote. Thank you.


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## Florencevegan

Dear Friends of free-flying Feral Pigeons, I am upset tonight, by a reply I got on another thread. Can someone explain to me if this is a thread for feral pigeon lovers or if that includes racing pigeon people and pigeon breeding people? I am so upset. Do people here think that the free feral pigeons are "homeless" just because God's sky is their home? I feel I may have joined the wrong website if this is for people who like racing pigeons and breeding racers. I don't want my pigeons friends kidnapped to be bought and sold as slaves and taken from their spouses and their familiar territory which is home to them. They are not there for our use even if they are treated as domestic pets. My vet said racing pigeons is a cruel sport and not a natural life for pigeons. I am confused. I was so overjoyed to have found people who live and respect pigeons in the wild living their own kind of life, supported a little by our feeds and our care if they need vets or rescue, or an indoor life if they can no longer fly, of course. 
Florence.


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## Pidgey

Well, Florence, what that guy meant is that he keeps true homing pigeons, which are not actually ferals. He trains them, takes them a little ways away and then lets them go to fly home (his loft). He doesn't have anything to do with feral pigeons. There are racers on this forum. But a lot of us do deal with the ferals on a regular basis and appreciate them for what they are. I'm a rehabber and try to save the lives of the ones that cross my path who require the service. There are other rehabbers on here as well. We certainly don't much tolerate folks whose intentions are bad towards pigeons. For the racers, you can think of it this way: the birds wouldn't exist in the first place if the racers didn't want them.

Pidgey


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## Florencevegan

Thanks, Pidgey. It's just that I was confused as this guy who insulted me is a moderator on a feral pigeon site. It seems a bit strange. I thought racers would have their own sites. I don't feel at all happy or at home here any more. I love and respect the street flock and it was upsetting to have them called "homeless". There is no way I can take in 100 birds in a one-bedroom rented flat which I share with my cat. I wonder why it is a good thing to breed deliberately, when there are so many (as he said) "homeless" pigeons. Here we are concerned the Powers that be will cull if populations get too high, and people are breeding more deliberately. One pigeons is as good as another. It is the same with people who breed pedigree cats when the Cat Rescue is full of unwanted cats already born. Can you tell me who is in charge of this website please. If I know clearly who the website is for then I will understand better. Florence.


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## Pidgey

Well, there are some introductory pages that you might want to read:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14364

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7006

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7006

I don't think he intended to insult you, Florence, but he does occasionally manage to say things in such a way as to be misinterpreted.

Pidgey


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## Garye

You must be talking about Warren. I think he was only trying to be humorous. Some of us Yanks have a dry sense of humor (I think he's a Yank) especially the ones up North. We think people are getting our humor but sometimes they think we're being sarcastic.

Oh well, we try - sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.


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## Pidgey

Well, there's Yankees and there's D*** Yankees... Now, Warren, if Yankee he be...

Pidgey


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## Lin Hansen

Florencevegan said:


> Dear Friends of free-flying Feral Pigeons, I am upset tonight, by a reply I got on another thread. Can someone explain to me if this is a thread for feral pigeon lovers or if that includes racing pigeon people and pigeon breeding people? I am so upset. Do people here think that the free feral pigeons are "homeless" just because God's sky is their home? I feel I may have joined the wrong website if this is for people who like racing pigeons and breeding racers. I don't want my pigeons friends kidnapped to be bought and sold as slaves and taken from their spouses and their familiar territory which is home to them. They are not there for our use even if they are treated as domestic pets. My vet said racing pigeons is a cruel sport and not a natural life for pigeons. I am confused. I was so overjoyed to have found people who live and respect pigeons in the wild living their own kind of life, supported a little by our feeds and our care if they need vets or rescue, or an indoor life if they can no longer fly, of course.
> Florence.


Hi Florence,

I'm sorry you're upset. There are many different people here at Pigeon Talk from all over the world. Our membership includes people like you and myself, who look after the ferals... people who take in ill or injured pigeons and rehab them for release when they're well, or who find safe homes for the unreleaseable... people who keep pigeons as house pets... people who raise fancy "show" type birds...and people who breed and race homing pigeons. And all are welcome to comment in the different threads and different sections of the forum.

We have all different types of people here, but our common interest in pigeons is what brings us all together and we all get along pretty well, most of the time. Of course, misunderstandings can occur from time to time, mostly due to the fact that this form of communication is so different from speaking face to face....a joke or remark that is meant to be funny or witty can sometimes be misinterpreted. But we have a pretty nice group here.

Linda


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## Feefo

> Thanks, I don't know who actually said it, it wasn't me but I found it on a quote site without a name under it.


Hi Becca,

I also love your signature, it was written by Mary Baker Eddy (Miscellaneous Writings).

Her hymns also often use the imagery of birds. One of my favourites starts this way: 

"Brood o’er us with Thy shelt’ring wing, 
’Neath which our spirits blend 
Like brother birds, that soar and sing, 
And on the same branch bend. 
The arrow that doth wound the dove 
Darts not from those who watch and love."

Cynthia


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## Florencevegan

That's beautiful, Cynthia. What tune is it sung to?
Florence.


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## Florencevegan

Thank you Linda. It was not only the remarks that I found upsetting, but the fact that racers/homers are on here. I did not realise that at first, or I may not have joined. Thanks too to Pidgey for pointing me to the moderators' rules. Again, there seems to be a problem, as the rules "advocate humane treatment of all pigeons", and from what I have been told, from reliable sources, including vets, about racing, it is not humane. So it is surprising that so many of the moderators in the FERALS section have under their names the heading "Pigeons in Sport". Pigeons are not a sport, any more than dogs or horses are. They are separate species to be respected (and cared for, when necessary). What happens to pigeons who do not win races or get lost on long races or are too old to race? Please don't tell me they are rejected into a wild they are not adapted (any more) to surviving in, or that they get their necks broken as they are useless to the humans. And is it humane to take them long distances from home for the fun of seeing if they will make it back, desperate as they are to return to their spouse and/or chicks? These beings have lives, with relationships, and it is not for us to exploit them for our own entertainment, or financial gain. 
The Rules of this site are contradictory if they allow "all aspects" of people's interests in pigeons and thereby allow homing pigeon participators on here when their activity does not conform with the Rule advocating "humane treatment" of pigeons.
Florencevegan.


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## Pidgey

Well, for many of us who do tend to our ferals, it's a good site. A lot of us tend to stay in certain sections and we pick-and-choose our threads carefully. There is a group dedicated to helping the lost, sick and injured homers find there way to help and home. That group is called the 911PigeonAlert network. Just read your way through many of the threads in the Sick & Injured sections and see what you think.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Hi Florence,

I know one tune that it is sung to (there may be more) but not the name of the tune

The UK members work very well together iin an emergency, so I hope you will stay with us. As far as I know none of us race pigeons.

Cynthia


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## Florencevegan

Thanks, both. I just kind of hoped it would be more spiritual and loving. Some of you are. I wanted to share the joy of my friendship with these most peaceful, non-violent, loving creatures who seem to have flown in direct from a divine dimension. True I can't shelter them all, but that is not my pigeon, that is for cities and the rich, and meanwhile, they and I scrape through in our life of poverty together, their food taking up a half of my disability pension per week, my cat a quarter, me the other quarter, which is meagre for us all. I think my bird friends would call my outside window ledges "home", and I think, like me, they are content with little, and stoic and heroic when the wind blows and the tummy rumbles. God provides.
Florence


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## Lovebirds

Florencevegan said:


> Thank you Linda. It was not only the remarks that I found upsetting, but the fact that racers/homers are on here. I did not realise that at first, or I may not have joined. Thanks too to Pidgey for pointing me to the moderators' rules. Again, there seems to be a problem, as the rules "advocate humane treatment of all pigeons", and from what I have been told, from reliable sources, including vets, about racing, it is not humane. So it is surprising that so many of the moderators in the FERALS section have under their names the heading "Pigeons in Sport". Pigeons are not a sport, any more than dogs or horses are. They are separate species to be respected (and cared for, when necessary). What happens to pigeons who do not win races or get lost on long races or are too old to race? Please don't tell me they are rejected into a wild they are not adapted (any more) to surviving in, or that they get their necks broken as they are useless to the humans. And is it humane to take them long distances from home for the fun of seeing if they will make it back, desperate as they are to return to their spouse and/or chicks? These beings have lives, with relationships, and it is not for us to exploit them for our own entertainment, or financial gain.
> The Rules of this site are contradictory if they allow "all aspects" of people's interests in pigeons and thereby allow homing pigeon participators on here when their activity does not conform with the Rule advocating "humane treatment" of pigeons.
> Florencevegan.



While I truly appreciate your apparent love for pigeons, I do NOT appreciate some of the comments that you've made. I do not appreciate you lumping a group of people all together like we are all monsters. I think you need to understand what you are talking about before you start throwing accusations. 



Florencevegan said:


> What happens to pigeons who do not win races





Florencevegan said:


> or get lost on long races





Florencevegan said:


> or are too old to race?


First of all, I don't know where you get your information. What happens to a pigeon that doesn't win a race? Nothing.........somehow you've got the idea that we (racing fanciers) kill birds that don't win races. Well, if that was the case, there would be LOTS of dead birds. Any given race on any given week end can have from 100 to thousands of birds competeing. Only ONE bird can win each week. The ones that don't win???? They get to race again the next week. Pigeon racing isn' all about WINNING. I suspect that you really have no idea about what goes on in pigeon racing and it would probably take a whole book to explain it to you. 
As to the ones that get "lost".........you and others say that you see banded birds with your feral flocks. So there's part of your answer. There is a group of volunteers, most members of this forum, who spend countless hours helping the lost birds get back to their owners OR find a suitable home. 
The ones who are too old to race??? Well, for one, if they get too old to race, that means they've spent the last 2, 3, 4 or more years racing and "coming home".......so they are put into the stock loft to raise more babies that can do what they've done for the past few years. Or they are given to a young person just getting started with pigeons. 



Florencevegan said:


> And is it humane to take them long distances from home for the fun of seeing if they will make it back,


Once again, you have no idea what goes on in pigeon racing. I will not tell you that ALL pigeon racers have the same attitude as I do. I can only speak for myself and I personally know others who have the same philosophy. I don't send a "bunch of birds" to a race to "see if they will make it back".......I fully expect to see every bird I ship to a race, come flying over the top of their home loft on race day. These birds are cared for, fed the best food, given the best training and when it comes time to ship a race, only the birds that I think can make the grade go to the race. The others get to stay home and take the week end off. I don't just throw a bunch of birds in the basket for the sake of shipping "numbers"..........

Again, I've watched and read your posts and started to comment a few times, but bit my tongue. I couldn't let this one slide. 
Just because you percieve something as evil or cruel, doesn't make it so and when you don't know fully what you are talking about, it's best you don't talk at all.
Can I tell you that all pigeon racers are outstanding, caring people? Of course not. But just like in every area of life, you have the good and the bad. It's not fair for you to put us all in the same catagory.
And it's not fair for you to assume that all pigeon racers are cruel, uncaring people. 
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. 
What's inhumane to you doesn't make it so. Is it humane to feed the feral pigeons? They've lived thousands and thousands of years without you feeding them. What happens if you die tomorrow? Who will feed them then? Instead of having to forage for their food, they're having it handed to them on a silver platter. What happens when that platter is gone? 
I'm not saying don't feed the birds. Geezzz......I feed the birds too in my back yard and the squirrels and the deer................
I think that there is room on this forum for all of us. I've been a member since 2002 and things have worked just fine. 
So, I certainly am not telling you to leave. That's your call, but I am telling you that you have no business coming to this forum and trying to push your perceived values and ideas on the rest of us and telling us and the owners and moderators of this site that we and they are wrong in allowing certain people to frequent the forum. 
Anyone who knows me here will tell you what I've done to get a bird home. What I've done to save a birds life. The number of pigeon racers who've come to our forum to get help to save a sick race bird. 
Now, I've said what I wanted to say or most of it anyway . I'll have no more discussion about it. If you are interested in REALLY learning about pigeon racing and what really goes on, I'd be glad to have that conversation with you.


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## Becca199212

cyro51 said:


> Hi Becca,
> 
> I also love your signature, it was written by Mary Baker Eddy (Miscellaneous Writings).
> 
> Her hymns also often use the imagery of birds. One of my favourites starts this way:
> 
> "Brood o’er us with Thy shelt’ring wing,
> ’Neath which our spirits blend
> Like brother birds, that soar and sing,
> And on the same branch bend.
> The arrow that doth wound the dove
> Darts not from those who watch and love."
> 
> Cynthia


Thanks alot, I have saw it on a ton of sites but non have the name under, is 
Miscellaneous Writings a book? And do you mind if I use that verse on our website?


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## Florencevegan

Becca and Cynthia, Do you know the book by Andrea Wansbury called "Birds, Divine Messengers" (Transform your Life with their Guidance and Wisdom)? I have just bought it from CYGNUS BOOKS. She writes about the link between birds and angelic beings. Another writer who did this is Claire Nahmad in "Summoning Angels". She has a chapter on the mystical link between angels and birds. (Like Browning's "Half angel and half bird, And all a wonder and a wild desire...") It is beautiful what she writes baout pigeons. Perhaps we should start a new thread about spirituality and how the pigeons somehow bring us into a dimension where the Divine Love in the Universe feels very real. 
Peace to all that lives.
Florence.


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Florence, I am very sorry you feel the site is not what you expected it to be but let me put it to you another way. 

I, like Pidgey and several others, rehabilitate the wild feral pigeons and sometimes racing and show pigeons if they need help. While my heart goes out to the ferals, I also love the racers and show pigeons. The show pigeons, particularly, cannot be released because most of them don't fly adequately. The racing pigeons love to race and are usually pampered and well cared for by all of our members. 

I owe a lot of gratitude to the thousands of breeders across this country and in other countries because without them, I would not be able to care for the ferals as I do. The majority of medicines and products we use came about because of the large number of breeders who have enough clout and money to enable companies to develop and sell these products. There would probably not be a single pigeon supply company anywhere if their products were for feral pigeons only.

It has never occurred to me to resent these breeders. They love their pigeons just as much as I love the ferals. You have to understand that these are specially bred pigeons that ordinarily cannot survive "free". While your concept is sweet, it is also a bit naive. 

You mentioned the moderator insulting you. I can only assume it was Warren of Smith Family Lofts. While Warren and I have had our "run-ins" on several occasions, I highly respect him. He can be a bit blunt and curt but he loves his pigeons and I guess that sometimes he doesn't understand those of us who spend so much time and money on ferals. The point is that he would never, ever, hurt a feral pigeon.

You will not find a feral only site. I can tell you that this is, by far, the very best site for pigeon loving people to get together. It is a fine group and I consider many my good friends.

Please read as many threads as you can, both about ferals and racers/show pigeons. You'll find that we all care deeply for any type of pigeon.


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## Feefo

Hi Becca,

Yes, Miscellaneous Writings is a book, a collection of Mrs Eddy's writings. And of course I don't mind you using that verse! 

Florence, I had not heard of those books but I will read them.

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley

Thank you Renee and Maggie for your thoughtful and informative posts. 

Florencevegan, I do believe you would benefit from spending a bit of time here on Pigeon-Talk reading through posts and getting to know the various members before being as accusatory and opinionated as you have been thus far. 

There are definitely members here who keep, breed, and race pigeons, who show pigeons, and who have performing types of pigeons (rollers, tumblers, high flyers, etc.). They are all welcome here as is anyone who has a love for and/or sincere interest in pigeons of all types. There are also many of us, myself included, who rescue and rehab all types of pigeons and doves and members who have strictly pet pigeons whether they be feral, show birds, racers, or other. We all learn from one another and for the most part get along well.

You truly won't find a better discussion board anywhere for pigeons of all types. 

Terry


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## Becca199212

Got my list of books now, I will pop into the libary on the way home! Thanks alot!


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## Florencevegan

Trouble is, libraries may not have them. :-( Cygnus Books have them. They also send free mag every month if you buy one, a kind of Review/catalogue, great spiritual articles. 
Seeing my Housing Director at 3 to see if I am getting evicted for feeding. Oh gosh. I feed a flock made dependent then abandoned by someone else, and have to carry on until new people come to replace me. Which I trust they will, as I think watching a feeder makes people think. And care.
Florence.


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## Feefo

May I suggest that it would have been kinder and more welcoming to *ask *Florence what had formed her view of fanciers rather than criticising her for expressing them? 

This is an excerpt from a particularly callous and sickening article on this site: http://www.pigeonbasics.com/articles/article34.html And there are many more along those same lines on that site.

It is articles like these, lacking the slightest bit of compassion or affection for the pigeons that colours our perception of the racing fraternity. 



> After Christmas I would sit down with a couple of baskets, one of which contained my team of latebreds and then work my way through them, just culling. *I can't possibly underrate this job which, in my opinion, is the most important of all the pigeon fancier's tasks. *It takes time, too, if the strain is well-bred. Take a dozen birds from a loft of riff-raff pigeons and one could probably cull them in a matter of minutes. Take a dozen from the loft of an experienced fancier who knows what to reject and what to retain and the variation between each bird will be slight by comparison. However, slight or not, the variation will not escape the notice of the practiced hand and eye.
> 
> No matter how many latebreds I breed in a round,* from a dozen to four dozen, I have never known a season when I have been able to choose more than 2 birds worthy of being kept as producers, or probable producers*. You may suggest that the older one becomes, in this game the more finicky becomes one's choice so that instead of keeping all reasonable types, one becomes a perfectionist and possibly rejects some very likely winners or breeders of winners.
> 
> I can remember one year, when just after I had finished culling the latebreds I had to make a hurried call in the neighbourhood. I asked Veronica to telephone the local poulterer who had a standing order with me for young pigeons which he plucked and sold under a name of 'game' names, such as plover, etc....If you reject fearlessly you must, in the end, become an expert culler of racing pigeons and win more than your share of the prizes.


Silence is tacit consent. Do you expect people who are passionate about preserving the life of the weakest and most damaged pigeons to assume that *all* the fanciers on this particular site love their pigeons regardless of their performance and have never destroyed a healthy bird.

Cynthia


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## Florencevegan

Thank you, Cynthia. And the pigeons thank you too. God help them, if those people are their 'friends'.
I feel I may have flown into the wrong flock here. But perhaps we can help people think a little about ethics, search their consciences. People would not get so angry if our view had no glimmer of truth in it, that touches a nerve, makes people defensive. Above all, we must try to imagine the pigeon's eye view of all we do to them and for them. 
My basic question about racing simply is - WHY DO IT ?
Florence.


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## phyll

Florence,
I pray God may bless you for the love & kindness you give His creatures.
Not many people would allot the greater portion of their pension to helping creatures. Thank you for being so generous.

There is an overabundance of rotten people out there, Florence, but Pigeon-Talk is one of the "bestest" sites; please give it a chance. 
If you do, you will find many, many good & caring people here. We need as many loving people as we can get, so you should stay.

Everyone ~ I can understand Florence's feelings because when I found Jesse, I began to search for information about pigeons. I was horrified to learn what some creeps (being nice here) do to these precious birds. 

On one forum, racers were giving "tips" on the quickest methods to kill their unwanted birds. I couldn't believe they were discussing the subject like they were discussing the weather! It made me sick.
I also learned of the emotional torture they INTENTIONALLY inflict upon their pigeons, in order to get them to fly home faster. 
Those racers were scum; they couldn't have cared less about their birds.

Forget about some of the "White Dove Release" businesses. I am ashamed to say that here in New York, there are waaay too many lost birds who are all white.
Why the owners even bother to band them is beyond me! When you call, they want nothing to do with the bird.
All they wanted was to make a buck!

It's truly heartbreaking that so many of these innocent creatures are used for profit & fun (?) ~ only to be lost or injured. Then they suffer all alone until they die. 

If you guys check in on other sites, you won't believe the cruelty connected with "pigeon" people.
After my first experience over three years ago, I never went back. What I learned still haunts me, & it always will.

Phyll


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## Becca199212

Why do the birds fly home, if they are being mistreated, I would have thought that they wouldn't go back.


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## Feefo

> Why do the birds fly home, if they are being mistreated, I would have thought that they wouldn't go back.


The emotional torture that Phyl is referring to is the "widowhood" system This excerpt from the Wikipedia explains the method and why the birds fly home.



> *One of the most popular systems is widowhood. This system uses motivation to try to give the bird a sense of urgency on race day. The use of widowhood is usually begun by first allowing the racer to raise a baby in their nest box. After the baby is weaned the hen is removed and oftentimes the nestbox is closed off, from then on the only time these birds are allowed to see their mate or enter the nest box is upon returning from training or a race. This conditioning is one of the key elements in a lot of racing programs.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Cynthia


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## myrpalom

In Belgium, the system with female pigeons is: let her hatch babies, and after a few days, send her on a race. They told me litterally "she would fly her ass off to get back to feed her babies."
I cannot imagine the suffering of those female pigeons when they get lost, those fanciers told me they remember for months or even years that those babies are waiting.
But Belgium is the worst example of pigeon racing, it is all about money, those pigeons are objects for them.
And they know they have a bad reputation, in the forums they even discuss methods to have a better reputation towards the public in general and toward sanimal defenders. I found posts about not discussing culling anymore in the public forums, because "we are watched", only in closed forums and live meetings.
That is why I was amazed and very happy to find out in this forum that there are fanciers who care for their birds and traet them with love.
Myriam


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## Becca199212

I understand now how Florence thought that racing the birds is evil, it is when people do it like that. But not all people do. 

I have just returned from the libary and you were right, they don' have any of those books.


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## Florencevegan

Thanks to Phyll and Myriam. If I didn't know much about racing before (and I did know quite a bit), I know more now, and it is cruel cruel cruel. 
Becca, sorry but the books are too new to be in the libraries. Does your library have a Spirituality or New Age or Mind Body Soul section? Mine is the pits.
Becca and Myriam - I know some racers are kind to ferals too but how can they be seen as kind to their racing birds if they have to make them so unhappy and desperate ? Also the distances (and weather) are sometimes cruel. I think it should be banned, just as I think horse and dog racing, dog fighting, angling, hunting, circuses and all exploitation of animals for human entertainment and profit should be banned. 
Using animals for food is quite another matter, but my dream is to see the last slaughter-house closed and for every human to realise we do not need to eat our dead friends in order to survive and be well, and there would be enough food to go round all the hungry humans in a vegan world too. 
It would be interesting to know if any of the racers are vegans. 
Florencevegan


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## Lin Hansen

Everyone,

There are "good" and "bad" things to be found in every sport, and in fact, in every area of life. Good people, bad people, good practices, bad practices in families, workplaces, sports....everywhere.

I have found that the members of Pigeon Talk who are racers take very good care of their birds and do not engage in inhumane practices. Our racers are long time members and contributers to Pigeon Talk and very valuable to us here at the forum in sharing their knowledge and I'm sure that this ongoing thread that is bashing them and their sport is very hurtful and insulting to them.

As I said before, we have all types of people here.....there are many who have pet birds and other pets.....are we going to start bashing them next for keeping animals confined when they were meant to be "born free?"

Florence - I know you mean well and you have some very noble beliefs, but everyone has their own beliefs and are entitled to have them.

I think in the interest of harmony, that there has been enough public discussion of this subject....those of you who wish to carry it on can do so via email or chat, but I don't think it's fair to our other members to carry it on publicly at the forum.

Thanks,
Linda


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## Lovebirds

Lin Hansen said:


> Everyone,
> 
> There are "good" and "bad" things to be found in every sport, and in fact, in every area of life. Good people, bad people, good practices, bad practices in families, workplaces, sports....everywhere.
> 
> I have found that the members of Pigeon Talk who are racers take very good care of their birds and do not engage in inhumane practices. Our racers are long time members and contributers to Pigeon Talk and very valuable to us here at the forum in sharing their knowledge and I'm sure that this ongoing thread that is bashing them and their sport is very hurtful and insulting to them.
> 
> As I said before, we have all types of people here.....there are many who have pet birds and other pets.....are we going to start bashing them next for keeping animals confined when they were meant to be "born free?"
> 
> Florence - I know you mean well and you have some very noble beliefs, but everyone has their own beliefs and are entitled to have them.
> 
> I think in the interest of harmony, that there has been enough public discussion of this subject....those of you who wish to carry it on can do so via email or chat, but I don't think it's fair to our other members to carry it on publicly at the forum.
> 
> Thanks,
> Linda


Thank you...............


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## Florencevegan

Discussion does not stop anyone having their own beliefs! It is what a democratic society is founded on. Sometimes people even change their beliefs as a result of open debate as hearing other views helps us to reflect on our own ideas and to explore our ethical values. I am sure all we all want is to be good human beings and to be good to other species. Believe me, it is I who feel "bashed". I am not condemning people, but an activity. If there is good and bad everywhere, let's pursue the good and try to turn from the bad. Making animals do things for our entertainment (or gain) is not a hobby and not a sport. Or perhaps people define "sport" differently in different places. 
The Oxford Dictionary says sport is "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment". 
I don't think it is a "skill" worthy of the name to be "good at" distressing both baby and parent birds so horribly that those birds fly home quickly. I hardly think expertise in murdering many of the birds is to be seen as a "good" skill or a "sport". 
I will speak for the welfare of these birds until my dying breath. I cannot imagine how anyone who loves pigeons can condone racing. 
I intend to petition politicians in the future to have it made illegal, in the same way as fox hunting has been in Scotland, thanks be to God.
Please think about what you are doing, and live from your compassion, as that is in all of us who have ever spent time with pigeons.
Florence.


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## Whitefeather

Hey Folks,
Here's an idea . . .
Let's just all agree to disagree.  

We've heard the pros & cons on the subject. Can we please move on now.

Thank You.  

Cindy


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## Feefo

Lovebirds, I can't remember anyone targetting you personally about racing pigeons. The only person who has received personal criticism in this is Florence.

Cindy, I think it is time to close this thread.


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## Skyeking

There is a rotten apple in every bunch, but I haven't found any here.

PLEASE remember we are all here to protect and care for every pigeon that comes in our midst, first and foremost. That is our goal here, it is not to argue or insult any member in good standing or not, on this forum.

If if we can all move on that would be great, if you would like me to close this thread....just say the word.


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