# To buy or to breed that is the question



## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

lets get some opinions going. Im starting out and what would be the better option breeding or buying kits?


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

TipplerBeni said:


> lets get some opinions going. Im starting out and what would be the better option breeding or buying kits?


Do you mean buy stock birds or buying young birds to breed?


My opinion about this:

If you're not rushing or want to breed 1st, I say buy stock birds, but if you are experienced already then you can buy young birds, train them to trap-in, loft flying then let them breed in your loft...

I bought my hens because I have 2 males when I started and I want them to settle-in 1st in the nestbox of their own, a week after I bought 2 hens to give them their pair...Few months after they start breeding...

If I have more experience then, I probably buy a whole flock of young birds then start training them to trap-in for few weeks...I know I start breeding then...I prefer knowing that my young birds are well trained by me...And not thinking of them might fly away...


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If you want to buy YB`s for flying,buy two kits..One kit say from Patti Loft (Janssens)...
and one kit from Bob Koch (Janssens)...I am only using these two lofts as an example..They are both All-American lofts,and they both have Janssens...So that would make a good cross when mated to each other,without going out of the base strain..If you like Husyken van Riels,you find two very good lofts,and do it with their strain of birds...You fly the young ones,and you mate the best to the best the next year..If you get a HIT pair,you then stock them....I did this 24 years ago,and I`m not sorry one bit !!!.....Alamo


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

As someone who just went through this last year I would say go with the young bird Kits. It would have been so much better for me if I would have just went that way. It would give you the better part of a year to get set up for breeding next year and you could focus on the young birds and there needs for this year.

Ace


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## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

ok this is my situation,

I got white homers before I did any research on the breeder but I was promised they would be good birds. Well I got 2 pairs I raced back in 2005 houben/sion and 2 more birds that are just birds. Given to me unknown bloodline. Well I got a kit of birds coming to me once they are bred. Around 11-16 birds. I think i should buy a couple kits just to help my odds. I would consider myself good at sticking birds to a loft. But the auctions are still up and Im in the process on getting a breeding pair from Fahy robinson. Now all that being said i figure i would get 30 birds out of the whites before training begins but nervous about there abilities what should i do? Just wait the storm out, or should i grab another kit or two?


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2008)

I have to agree that getting a kit of young birds is the best way to go as you dont have to worry about prisoners which seem to take up more room then you think


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

1. You are more likely to get a guys best stock by buying unproven young birds. Here you could fly them and pic the best of the bunch to found your loft. 

2. I would though aquire a breeding pair if, I knew that it was a proven pair. 

3. I would aquire brothers and sisters of winners for breeders

4. I would aquire brothers and sisters of proven breeders.

5. Pedigrees 

This is probably the order I would establish a loft if all the stars were aligned. 
Not flying out of my own loft, I did option 3 and 4 to found my own loft. I aquired young birds off of brothers and sisters to futurity winners and brothers and sisters of sucessful breeders. I aquired all from the same sucessful loft. 

I have since aquire brothers and sisters to my best breeders and young birds off of my best fliers. I have also aquired a few proven race birds. My loft only contains one bird that I purchased for its pedigree. She is a daughter of a National Winner in Belgium. 

I think the key to establishing a loft is to aquire the best birds you can any way you can and do not pass down opportunity to better your stock. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I left out race winners in my selection criteria. This one is not that easy. If the winner was from a very good loft from a family that wins regularly, I would put it #1. If it was a flash in a pan, one hit wonder, I would put it further down the line. This year I am brining in a very good race bird, that is from a very good family of birds. It was top 10% four times, 3rd from 300 and its brother was 10% twice and they were the only two birds from the family. A bird I sent him was 4th from 300 on the same drop. 

The flier aquired the father of the bird, and two other brothers. this was the best bird in his loft. He bought the sire, and brothers and sisters of the bird. This in my opinion is a great way to better your loft. He brought in a young bird kit that was better than what he had, tested them, and then aquired family members. I want to bring in the family because this bird was equal or better to the best that I sent him. You take the opportunities when they are in front of you. 
The other pedigree bird that I spoke of earlier and the only bird I aquired for its pedigree alone was an import and daughter of a national Borgues winner against 13,000 birds from a great family of birds. She was older, but for $50 in an auction, I felt it was a no loose situation. If she hits good, if not she will move on down the road. 
Another bird that I will be taking in is a sister to a 200 mile winner that was raised by a very good race bird that I raised. She was crossed to the fliers second best young bird. His best young bird that year was the Dams brother which I also raised. I was short a hen and this seemed like a same bet for a quality hen. 

I hope a few of these examples of different ways to establish stock helps you. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One last thing to add to the mix is to establish relationships. Flying my birds in a dozen or so different lofts allows me to have a huge pool of potential stock. You can also see how your birds cross with others. 

Your original question is quite complex, Young bird kits or breed your own. I think as long as what you are breeding is at the top of the competition you keep breeding, when it falls short you go out and aquire something you think is better. You must also keep in mind where you are getting birds and are they culls or the guys best. With a kit you are lible to get both, with breeders you take the chance of getting what the other guy does not want. They are not very likely to give you their best pairs. Some of us would be happy with some peoples culls. 

I would like to add the discussion with a question. 

If you were to aquire a kit of young birds, where would you go?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TipplerBeni said:


> lets get some opinions going. Im starting out and what would be the better option breeding or buying kits?


I think that would depend on your definition of "Better". There may be as many ways to approach this as one can imagine. For some people, "better" may mean "cheapest", for some it may mean "fastest", for some it may mean "results". I think that one must also consider the circumstances which one find's himself/herself in.

Are you a very young person of very modest means and are you approaching this as "just" a hobby for something to have some fun with ? Or are you an older person that has been successful in your career or business, are competitive minded, and now you are looking for the challenge and excitement of One Loft Racing ? Or are you somewhere in between ?

Regardless of what some magazine advertisements might claim, most racing pigeons which are produced, and/or raced and/or sold, are for the very most part, very typical pigeons. Some may be a little below average, some a little above average, but the vast majority, by definition, are just plain average. 

Some people might lean towards buying "kits", because you will get more numbers of pigeons that way for your money. Some might get lost off the landing board, some in training, and you will lose some in the races. Purchase dozens of them, and by the end of the season, you may have some bird's to sort through, which might have turned out to have been decent racers, which then might turn out to be decent breeders. It's going to be a numbers game.....just keep in mind that if the YB kit's came from "good" stock, it could take a hundred of these to end up with two or three "exceptional" pairs. It's not rocket science, they sell cheap, because the owner himself does not value these unproven birds himself very much at this stage. 

Once these YB's make it through months of training and dozens of training tosses, and the bird wins a number of races and distinguishes himself from among hundreds or even thousands of other racing pigeons, the picture begins to change. Depending on the races or the circumstances, the bird may now be valued at 10 or 100 times or more then what he may have been valued at as part of a YB kit. Now perhaps the bird enters OB racing, where again he might distinguish himself by winning additional races, and again the value to the owner goes up. Perhaps he is then placed into the breeding loft, where his real value is determined, because a Champion Breeder is worth much more then a Champion Racer. If this bird produces real honest to goodness winners, then finally, the bird has gone full cycle, and could be valued at more then a hundred YB "kits". 

The problem is, and the catch 22, is these birds are very difficult to buy. Typically, the only option is to settle for purchasing the offspring from such birds. Because of the family lineage and history, you may pay more for a single offspring then what you could purchase a kit or more likely, several kits for. If you obtain a number of these birds, from the same family tree, the odds are then more in your favor, of producing some of these "good" pigeons. 

If money is no object, and it rarely is.....then fill some suit cases with 100 Euro notes, and fly to Holland and visit a loft which has produced more then two or three National Champions, and attempt to purchase a few of these which have also produced winners, and perhaps an aunt or uncle or two. Just to cover your bases, you might just purchase their parents and some of their promising offspring also. This might then be the "best" way of insuring that you can then produce some promising YB's yourself. Then to help defray the cost of the trip, you can always put an ad in the RPD and sell some of your YB's......


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

How about those old birds (like 98-2003) that they are selling in some auctions? I also noticed those loft breeder reduction sale? Are they any good?


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## Robert Lee (Jan 24, 2009)

Rod my thoughts on buying old birds on auction. If they had it for this long it must have a valid reason to stay in the loft. I found that it is not always true. Read the description and think about what the seller is "not" saying. In most cases they rant about its ancestry and nothing about how well the bird produced as a breeder. My guess is it did not produce any good flyers. Foundation quality, highly inbred, proven are often misused for selling purposes.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> How about those old birds (like 98-2003) that they are selling in some auctions? I also noticed those loft breeder reduction sale? Are they any good?


RodSD,

There is no real correct answer to your question except "maybe"...and that could be a big Maybe. 

Every fall at the end of the racing season, many tens of thousands of fanciers go through their loft and do a "house cleaning". The dirty truth of the matter is, for the very typical loft, there are no buyers. Let your imagination run wild and figure that at the end of the season, these fanciers will have plenty of "extra" birds to deal with. 

Now, there are a smaller minority of flyers, who through advertising, marketing or whatever, have some sort of market for their birds at some price. I know one particular fancier, who still manages to sell a ton of birds, based on awards he won back in the 1980's, when his loft was in a different location, and a relative now long passed, was "helping" him. He "retired" from flying, since his very poor race showing, was in stark contrast to his marketing and advertizments, and he wanted to focus on "breeding" (translation = selling) 

Much like buying a used car, there are all kinds of sellers out there. The odds of you buying a bird at one of these auctions, which will turn out to be a really great breeder, well....let's just say, I think the odds are stacked against you.

What you and I, and everyone else out there needs, is a mentor who knows more about pigeons then you do. And who isn't trying to figure out how to sell you something and make a quick buck. For the very vast majority of fanciers, especially new one's....most can't tell the difference between a typical racer, a junker, or a gem. And much like walking onto a used car lot, that ignorance can cost you plenty. And buying from a picture and a colorful description on an Internet Auction site, is perhaps the most risky way of buying a pigeon, just like it would be in buying a used car.

Find an experienced fancier, develop a relationship, ask for some help. It's not fool proof...because it requires you to make a judgement on someone's character. But, that may be easyer then trying to determine the usefulness of a pigeon on an auction site. My mentor and I have traveled hundreds of miles to visit a loft and examine some birds, only to say "No Thank You"....and then there were times, when we said to ourselves "Holy Cow" this is a gold mine ! 


So, if you are not a car mechanic and expert, take an expert to the car lot when you shop for a car. And the same deal when buying a pigeon, put an expert in your corner and save yourself a lot of grief.


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## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

getting a mentor is a good idea but where I race its more easy saying yeah come to my loft an check out what I got an BS for a whil than actually doing it. Since the club is a small group of people. the guys that win are really HUSH HUSH. Pretty much say I've bought breds from GFL an CBS an just bred. When taken on loft tours its like being on a nyc bus they move so quick you cant ask questions. In 2005 I was competitive without knowning Nothing. I want to get birds from outside my club so noone takes credit for the success IF I do have a good season. I have a handful of breeders and I think I will see what I breed and grab some of the best young birds I can that fits my budget.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well....I was talking of the "best" way and not necessarily the fastest or the easiest. Building a relationship takes time. And if you are concerned that a local "mentor" may get some credit....well that may not be the best attitude to have, because the odds are some of those guys may have forgotten more about pigeons, then you or I even remember. 

In my younger years, starting in the military, I once studied for a number of years the art of Karate under a real Master of the sport. He himself had invested many years and had gone to Japan to study under the old Masters. Much time and sacrifice was necessary before they began to share with him some of their great knowledge. Sometimes students would show up with attitude of...OK I have blessed you with my presence...now teach me....and wise Master say, No...first you clean floors. Many never showed enough desire or effort to learn, so Master never spend time with them. 

Before one can expect a teacher to invest his time helping you, you must first learn how to be a good student. Can't just show up for a loft tour, and expect someone to start sharing and helping you learn the art that in many cases, has required decades of trial and error to learn and master. Perhaps that is what is lacking in sport today....student show up and say...teach me....but old master to polite to say...no, first you scrape my loft. He simply concludes a very fast loft tour, and sends you on your way. 

Don't know what your situation may be, or if any of the above would apply, or if any value or understanding has been received. One can invest a lifetime reading books and the like, in trying to understand a sport such as Karate or Racing Pigeons. Personally, I think the mentor/student method, which has been around for many centuries, is a proven method...but if one can find a short cut, more power to you.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Trust is the name of the game!*

Some words of wisdom at least from my perspective, whatever that is worth!

I went through this very same process two years ago. I spent almost a full year reading, researching, trying to come up with an idea of what, exactly, I wanted to focus on with the sport. I talked to many, many fanciers in person, on the phone, as well as via e-mail. One thing I found to be true is that most local people are a little reluctant to be totally up front with someone they know they will have to compete with in the future. Of course this isn't always the case but I do think it is a fairly accurate generalization. I used this time to take everything in and digest all that I had heard and read. One thing that I rellied on was my own common sense. If it didn't make sense to me, either scientifically or through common sense, I was less likely to take it seriously.

When it came time to make the decision on acquiring birds I returned to the person that I had communicated with and developed a relationship with for the better part of a year. He had never steered me wrong. He encouraged me to investigate questions on my own and use my own intelligence to determine sollutions rather than relying on other's oppinions blindly. His guidance was always a give and take, much like I approach my classroom as a teacher. In short, I put more emphasis on the relationship than any fancy advertising or claims. Needless to say, I was not disappointed in my choice or in his birds. To this day, I feel I could not have done better with my birds and more importantly with my choice as a mentor/friend. I will always be in debt to Warren and what he has allowed me to accomplish.

This isn't meant as a commercial for Warren Smith or Smith Family Loft. I just want to express the importance of taking the time to develop relationships that you are comfortable with and that both parties have a vested interest in. Trust is the name of the game in this business. The bottom line is that as soon as you acquire birds from any source you are at the mercy of the integrity of the seller. They can put anything they want in the box to send you and make any "pedigree" they choose to make it all look good. Take the time. Invest in the person first. Then you are much more likely to get what you are paying for.

As always, just my two cents.

Dan


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Can someone clarify for me?
When we mean young birds we mean less than one year old. Right? And we fly these birds first to know which is good and then breed the good ones?

When I was gifted 5 birds (hen) from George Simon, I decided to resettle them first, then with the intention of tossing them. The birds that come home faster (or first) get to mate with my cocks that come home faster. Basically I like to breed good to good. Unfortunately my plan was foiled. Two accidentally escaped and the other two died from hawk attacks. So I have another question. Should I just rather mate them first and perhaps made them prisoners and fly the young ones? I think with my hawk problem, resettling is very risky. What do you all think?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi ROD, You never gave those birds a chance you were in a big hurry and that is why you losted those birds. I told you to get them mated and raise 1 round of young this way those birds would have felt that your loft was their home.You are not a member of a race club therefor there is no reason to be in a hurry* GEORGE


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey George,

You are probably right! I was too in a hurry to resettle them. I was just too excited to get those birds up. The two that escaped was unintentional. My back was turned when I suddenly heard something flew and it was your birds. The other 3 birds were intentionally released. Those 3 birds were routing around my loft for 3 or 4 days. One of them ranged already for 40 minutes. I still have one bird left and is now mated. I am trying to prevent her from flying out, but she escaped once again when I was cleaning my loft couple of days ago. She is back inside.

I indeed learned a hard lesson! My impatience may have gotten the worst of me. I apologize again for losing your birds.

Rod


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, my two cents is mentoring is the way to go. But it all begins with me. How much time, cost, and effort will I apply to my birds. My mentor explains the basics but then tells me that from training, feeding, breeding and luck you get good birds. It all takes time and patience and there are no set way to do it. Talk to ten racers and get ten answers, it is all part of the game.

I had my birds about one year and know I am not ready to race. I started with six YBs and only have one left from the first batch. I gotten 16 birds and lost nine total. I have three mated pairs that are on their second batch of eggs. Between my impatience and hawks I have learned alot and still have alot to learn. My mentor has been my blessing each step of the way.

So my answer to the question is to start with young birds so the owner and birds can grow, experience, and learn together.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

learning said:


> Some words of wisdom at least from my perspective, whatever that is worth!
> 
> I went through this very same process two years ago. I spent almost a full year reading, researching, trying to come up with an idea of what, exactly, I wanted to focus on with the sport. I talked to many, many fanciers in person, on the phone, as well as via e-mail. One thing I found to be true is that most local people are a little reluctant to be totally up front with someone they know they will have to compete with in the future. Of course this isn't always the case but I do think it is a fairly accurate generalization. I used this time to take everything in and digest all that I had heard and read. One thing that I rellied on was my own common sense. If it didn't make sense to me, either scientifically or through common sense, I was less likely to take it seriously.
> 
> ...


This is very true. I wish there was someone like this around when I got started. Three years and $2,000 dollars later, I found a good family of birds and I'm in the position of helping a few new guys. Great insight Dan.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Hi ROD, You never gave those birds a chance you were in a big hurry and that is why you losted those birds. I told you to get them mated and raise 1 round of young this way those birds would have felt that your loft was their home.You are not a member of a race club therefor there is no reason to be in a hurry* GEORGE


George is 100% correct on that advice...

I'd waited for almost 7 months before I got my 1st babies...They had some eggs but not fertile or sometimes it just another accident that they broke the egg...Well before I wasn't that experienced breeding yet but I've learned my valuable lesson on that part...

IMO; I know that if someone give me some bird/s and not sure how old are they, I have to make them to stocks/prisoners, no matter what the original owner say...Another lesson I know for sure once the neck or the feather by the neck turns greenish color or shiny that only means its an adult bird and it is not possible to train, maybe, but I won't take the risk...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Some words of wisdom at least from my perspective, whatever that is worth!
> 
> I went through this very same process two years ago. I spent almost a full year reading, researching, trying to come up with an idea of what, exactly, I wanted to focus on with the sport. I talked to many, many fanciers in person, on the phone, as well as via e-mail. One thing I found to be true is that most local people are a little reluctant to be totally up front with someone they know they will have to compete with in the future. Of course this isn't always the case but I do think it is a fairly accurate generalization. I used this time to take everything in and digest all that I had heard and read. One thing that I rellied on was my own common sense. If it didn't make sense to me, either scientifically or through common sense, I was less likely to take it seriously.
> 
> ...


Thank you Dan for your kind words, I find them humbling and inspirational all at the same time. 

Perhaps a bit OT, but mentorship, is the best way to find many answers. Not that a mentor has all the answers, but a good mentor can save you many valuable breeding seasons and those impulses to "Reinvent the Wheel".

In an ideal situation, a local club or combine member will fill that role, but as Dan stated, that is not always possible. Sometimes, one must make an investment in time, money and effort to gain the attention and interest of a mentor. Some things about this sport are difficult to teach, just as some fanciers are hard to teach, or in fact un-teachable.

I have in fact, invested in a number of people, and their pigeons. Since this is both a hobby, sport, and business proposition, it makes this game all the more complex. Since that is the case, it makes it all the more important, that one gains access to the best sources of information that one can. And unless one has experience, it is hard to know how to secure good stock, or even what good stock is. Thus "hiring" a few experts along the way is not a bad idea.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

learning said:


> Some words of wisdom at least from my perspective, whatever that is worth!
> 
> One thing I found to be true is that most local people are a little reluctant to be totally up front with someone they know they will have to compete with in the future. Of course this isn't always the case but I do think it is a fairly accurate generalization.
> When it came time to make the decision on acquiring birds I returned to the person that I had communicated with and developed a relationship with for the better part of a year. He had never steered me wrong. He encouraged me to investigate questions on my own and use my own intelligence to determine sollutions rather than relying on other's oppinions blindly. His guidance was always a give and take, much like I approach my classroom as a teacher. In short, I put more emphasis on the relationship than any fancy advertising or claims. Needless to say, I was not disappointed in my choice or in his birds. To this day, I feel I could not have done better with my birds and more importantly with my choice as a mentor/friend. I will always be in debt to Warren and what he has allowed me to accomplish.
> ...


I agree with Dan, A good mentor such as Warren can help get you ahead years before you would have figured it out on your own or with local guys only giving you some or sometimes wrong advise. I found that a guy like Warren who only flies YB's will have great birds available at the end of their YB season to move out at a reasonable price and the quality can seriously impact your new loft as it has ours. I would much rather start off with proven racers to breed from than a kit of YB's. You will only have 1 or 2 out of a kit of 10 that may perform well vs picking up 4 proven racers from a YB team that the flyer doesnt need to breed from as he already still has the parents. Just remember who helps you and make sure you "pay it forward". This is the foundation to a great sport and sportmanship. It is nice to win but it can be just as much fun to see a new flyer win with your help.
Ken


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It's sad that more often than not, guys aren't willing to help out young fliers that directly compete with them. There are some who are willing, but they are the exceptions, and not the rule. Find someone who competes in a club that doesn't compete with your club or combine. Those will be more open to helping a new flier out.


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## mookeeman (Dec 11, 2008)

for me i show my birds so it's pride to me that i raised this bird up to be a winner not bought off someone then they get the satisfaction of being the person who raised the bird


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