# Sexing Methods, keeping an open mind



## yellowking (Feb 25, 2008)

*After reading some of the sexing posts, I can't help but post this up. I had never spent time to revise this but I hope you can ignore the millions of grammars. If there are major problems please advise me and I will do what I can to correct anything. *

Ever since man domesticated the rock dove, Columba livia, we have been able to manipulate the bird’s behavior, physical attributes, and even alter the way they coo to our will. The traditional blue-bar rock dove, native to Europe and North Africa, has been genetically altered so much that today it is almost impossible to link some domesticated pigeons back to their rock dove ancestry just by their physical appearances. 

Take the English Carrier pigeon for example, long slender body, long flight feathers, long beak, a wattle that grow so enormously large that it looks as if it has a tumor, and eye rings so exaggerated that it looks as if it is going to engulf both the eyes. Another example would be the Short Face Budapest Tumbler pigeon. Its head on the other hand, is so small that it has a problem holding in its eyes. The beak is so small and short that it struggles to feed itself, not to mention it has no ability whatsoever to feed its own young. 

Not only did we change their physical appearances, we even manipulated how they behave. For instance, the birmingham roller, genetically bred to snap into a state of seizure in the sky which it rapidly spin backwards directly back down to earth at an exceptionally fast pace. In addition, we even found ways to breed them to coo a specific way. The English Trumpeter, hence the name, can coo a sound that closely resembles a trumpet. Another example would be the Thailand Laugher pigeon. Some say its coo sounds just like a small children laughing.

There is an ironic twist to these accomplishments though. Like the old saying, “you are only as good as your weakest link.” What is our weakest link you ask? Well don’t you find yourself asking sometime, if that bird you have is a cock or a hen. Yes, we all have. Whether you are experienced or inexperienced with pigeons, this will most likely be your number one question. We have found ingenious ways to manipulate the pigeon but yet we have never found a system to identify the basic and most simple question, how to differentiate between a cock and a hen.

I have encountered a handful of theories and methods of sexing pigeons throughout my timeline of keeping pigeons. Here are a few: the egg theory, pendulum theory, physical feature theories, behavioral theories, and genetics theory. Well sit back and relax, I am going to try to explain each one. I would give credit to the rightful owner of these theories but these theories are not from just one individual, they are just theories. So please don’t ask me why I don’t give credit. 

*The egg theory:* This can only be determined at the stage where the hen lays the eggs of course. The theory says that if an egg is a bit longer, or shaped more like an oval than it will more likely be a cock. In contrast if the egg is a round, small and short than it will have a better chance of being a hen. 

The problem with this theory is that some birds just don’t lay a perfect oval egg or a perfect round egg, for example my Italian owls lay very, very oval shaped eggs and they can both be male or female. Another problem with this theory is that nobody watches their birds hatch and or will not remember which bird came from which egg anyways. 

*The Pendulum Theory:* This theory utilizes the supposedly different magnetic energy that male and female gives off. For the method to work, you are to tie a small metal object to the end of a string and hold it on top of the bird, the movement of the pendulum should dictate what sex the bird is. The object can be anything from a small paper clip to a pen cap. Tie it to a small string about 6 inches long or so and hold it about half an inch to an inch above the birds back or tail. If the pendulum moves in circular motion then it is a hen. If the pendulum moves back and forth, it is a cock.

The problem with this theory is that it is all about the psychological factor of the person conducting the method. The fact that it is virtually impossible for the owner to test a bird unbiasedly destroys the whole theory. For example, I may want to test if my bird is really a cock. Unintentionally and unconsciously I proceed with the theory already presuming that my bird is going to be a cock, as I test the pendulum theory I may unconsciously persuade the movement of the pendulum. This psychological factor has it’s own topic so I am not going to elaborate on it any further.

*The Behavioral Theories:* There are three that I know of. There may be more out there. The first one is the “holding the beak theory.” They say that if you pull the bird by the beak horizontally straight out, the bird should indicate its sex by its movements. If it is the cock, the bird should stand perfectly still. In contrast if it is a hen, the bird should struggle and try to pull its head back in.

The second theory is the “holding the bird by its wing”. If you hold a bird by its wings vertically the movement of the bird should tell you its sex. If the bird moves back and forth struggling while it is moving and kicking its feet, then it is a cock. If it just struggles and shows no sign of kicking violently with its feet than it is a hen. 

When you hear about these theories you should immediately sense the human characteristics that are stained all over them. Why I say this? A man is suppose to be strong and show no signs of weakness, on the other hand a women is weak and should squirm or struggle when she is being forcefully handled. Or if a man is forced into an unwanted position he will kick and fight his way out, if a women is in that position she shouldn’t have the strength to fight back. There are just too much human influences for you to even consider these to be worthy theories.

Now we come to the simple and plain behavior theory. This theory is most used by owners and most obvious. If the bird coos, puffs up, dances in a circle, fans out, and bows up and down then it is a cock. If it is quit and shy then it is a hen. This is very misleading because both hen and cock practices these behaviors. When I was young, folks would tell me this all the time. The fact that I had shy cocks and aggressive hens had me confused and running in circles. 

Don’t abandon this theory yet, because this theory is somewhat correct and very useful if you use it correctly. The key is to remember that if it is a cock it is going to be more aggressive (IF AND ONLY IF YOU GIVE HIM ENOUGH TIME TO GET USE TO THE SURROUNDING). Some cocks are shy and will only show dominance when he feels that he is ready. Hens will always submit to a cock if she is searching for a cock and she is used to the cock. If you put in a shy cock and an aggressive hen using this theory you will have cocks that lay eggs. 

*The Physical Feature Theories:* There are a few that I know of. The first method is to identify the sex by the size of the nostril of the bird. If it has a larger nostril then it will more then likely be a cock. If it is a hen then it will have a much smaller nostril.

The problem with this theory is that it is only applicable to distinctive breeds that shows strong male and female features. These types of breeds consist of homers, dragoons, carriers, and etc. Even with homers, you will have hens with male features and cocks with female features. This theory falls short when you face a breed that doesn’t present strong physical features between the sexes such as the owls, rollers, tumblers, and so on.

Likewise, another physical feature that only applies to smaller breeds such as rollers, tumblers, and owls is that the shape of the head can determine their sexes. The head of a cock should be flat at the top, whereas the hen should have a round smooth curve to it.

Again, the problem with this is that it is not consistence and it focuses on only particular breed. I have seen plenty of hens with flat head and cocks with round head. This theory does not correlate with larger breeds.
Another physical theory is to observe the hackle feathers of the bird. The amount and the texture of the neck feathers should imply the sex of the bird. If the neck feathers are thick, puffy, loosely intact, and very shiny then it is a cock. On the other hand if the neck feathers are tightly interlocked, smooth, the colors are a bit duller, the neck itself is long and not puffed out then it is a hen.

The problem again is that there are just too many strains of birds out there that consistently disprove this theory. I have birds that completely contradicted this theory.

Lastly another physical feature that many swear to have no flaws is the “pubic bone theory.” The theory says that if you feel the pubic bone near the bird’s vent, you will be able to tell its sex. If the pubic bone is spread about an inch or so, then it is a hen, if it is tightly closed together then it is a cock. The reasoning is that if the hen is going to be able to lay eggs, the pubic bones must be wide enough for the eggs to pass through.
Of all the physical features this one is the most logical and obvious one. Sadly, it has proven itself to have flaws just like the other theories. Some cocks do have a wide separation of the pubic bones, and some hens have smaller narrower opening. It just means that the hen is going to lay smaller eggs. My modenas both have wide pubic bones, both my cock and my hen. My Italian owl hen has an opening so small that her eggs are oval instead of rounded.


----------



## yellowking (Feb 25, 2008)

*Genetics Theory:* These theories work for me most of the time. Sometime it throws me off but I trust this theory more than any of the other theories I have presented so far. This is not to say you should too. You should find the one that works for you and stick with that. Maybe you should use all of them, it is up to you. I am not much of a color genetic guy but I am sure the color breeders know more than me. For the purpose of this archive, I am going to try to explain it to the best of my abilities. 

This theory is based on the genetic coloring of pigeons. If you have a blue hen and a red cock, when the young hatches, the blue chick should be a cock and the red chick should be a hen. In other words, the sex depends on the parent’s color. If the hen is a certain color she will pass it to her sons. If the cock is a certain color he should pass it to his daughters. Of course this will be easier to identify if you have two different colored birds. This is as basic as it gets, if I add any other things to it is going to be difficult to understand.

The second genetic theory only applies to ash-red, yellow, and silver birds only. This theory I find works for me just fine. When you get any type of a red, yellow or silver young the bird with dark, loose markings on it is going to be a cock. A hen should be clean of any markings. (Remember this only applies to red, some yellows, silvers but keep in mind this excludes grizzles.) These markings will appear as if someone has used a dark blue permanent marker and just marking the bird’s feathers. These markings will be more and more apparent as the bird ages. The reason for these markings is the simple fact that cocks carries two colors. A red, yellow, or silver cock will always carry the blue trait inside of them, and it will show itself as the bird ages. Be very careful as some hens can have markings too, but their markings are small and are shades of reds and yellows. NOT BLUE OR BLACK.

So what did I do with these theories? I put them to the test of course. I will not explain the step by step process of my personal testing but I will give you an example of my experiment. I am not trying to make this a case study, therefore I will not include my tables and documents. That is for a different writing. This test was planned at the end of last year but officially started during the breeding season of this year.

*Experiment:*

*Hypothesis:* If all these theories holds true: the egg theory, pendulum theory, physical feature theories, behavioral theories, and genetics theory. 

*Prediction: *They will all fail except the genetic theory!

*Testing the Hypothesis:*
Procedure: I will be using my own birds. (I know this would be considered biased and uncontrollable but hey just for the fun.)
The subjects are:
1)	Ash-red cock x Ash-red checkered hen (homers)
2)	Black Eagle cock x Blue-bar hen (homers)
3)	Yellow-bar cock x Blue-bar hen (rollers)
4)	Magpie cock x Dun-check hen (rollers)
5)	White-marked cock x Blue-bar hen (modenas)
6)	Black cock (homer) x Bronze hen (modena) this was to try to have something different so it is not specifically on pure breeds.
7)	Splash Blue-bar cock x Blue-check hen (Italian owls)

*Procedure:* I will let the pairs lay their first batch of eggs. I will give each egg an identity, mark it on a small piece of masking tape and tape it on the bottom of the eggs. I will check them each day until they hatch and record them. Then use a timeline to record and test the methods. I will observe, and test each of the theories on my unsexed young. These testing will be tested over and over until I am 100% sure of the sex of each birds.

Data for Homer pair 1:
Ash-red cock x Ash-red checkered hen
2 eggs: 
Egg 1a= rounded, very clean (presumed to be a hen)
Egg 1b= slightly oval, about the same size (presumed to be a cock)

At 3 weeks:
1a) looks like a red check. Small nostril, close pubic bones, no genetic markings yet, rounded head. Pendulum 10 times: 7/10 a hen. Beak testing 10 times: 0/10 a hen. Wing testing 10 times: Doesn’t move at all!
2a) also a red check. Slightly larger nostril, close pubic bones, no genetic markings, rounded head. Pendulum 10 times: 3/10 a hen. Beak testing 10 times: 0/10 a hen. Wing testing 10 times: Doesn’t moves at all either!


At 6 weeks:
1a) red check. Small nostril, close pubic bones, no genetic markings, rounded head. Pendulum 10 times: 11/10 a hen. Beak testing 10 times: 10/10 a hen. Wing testing 10 times: 10/10 a cock.
2a) red check. Slightly larger nostril, close pubic bones, small genetic markings (some dark red, few blue), rounded head. Pendulum 10 times: 9/10 a hen. Beak testing 10 times: 10/10 a hen. Wing testing 10 times: 10/10 a cock.


At 6 months:
1a) red check. Small nostril, close pubic bones, no genetic markings, rounded head. Pendulum 10 times: 8/10 a hen. Beak testing 10 times: 10/10 a hen. Wing testing 10 times: 10/10 a cock.
2a) Lost on a toss. Invalid subject to the project anymore, but I still think it is a cock.


At 9 months:	
1a) red check. Small nostril, close pubic bones, no genetic markings, rounded head. Pendulum 10 times: 3/10 a hen. Beak testing 10 times: 10/10 a hen. Wing testing 10 times: 9/10 a cock. All the female features. Small signs of red marks, but not the blue or black marks. She was mated to a Blue cock and was on 2 eggs before I tossed them out. 
2a) Lost on a toss. Never came back. Invalid subject to the project anymore, but I still think it is a cock.

I just copied the data quickly from my notes just for an example. I am only giving you guys this one data. I need to keep the rest for private use and because it would be impossible to fit everything on here.

*My Conclusion:*

For centuries we have been manipulating pigeons to all different shapes, sizes, qualities, colors, performing skills, and for food productions. I find it amazing how we still can’t find a way to automatically sex them. Everyone you talk to has their own method. These theories are not proven yet by any means but are our best effort to satisfy us for the moment. Some people swear that there method of sexing works for them 100% of the time, but you will always find a few where the methods not only disappoint them but completely wronged them. I find it fascinating and interesting when people fight over who’s method is better. Truth is, each method has it’s own flaws and it’s own benefits. I guess this is what is fun about raising pigeons, each bird is a surprise. The only method I find that will work 100% of the time that I didn’t mention was TIME. Yes if we all have the patient, only time will tell us the truth.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

yellowking said:


> *Genetics Theory:* These theories work for me most of the time. Sometime it throws me off but I trust this theory more than any of the other theories I have presented so far. This is not to say you should too. You should find the one that works for you and stick with that. Maybe you should use all of them, it is up to you. I am not much of a color genetic guy but I am sure the color breeders know more than me. For the purpose of this archive, I am going to try to explain it to the best of my abilities.
> 
> This theory is based on the genetic coloring of pigeons. If you have a blue hen and a red cock, when the young hatches, the blue chick should be a cock and the red chick should be a hen. In other words, the sex depends on the parent’s color. If the hen is a certain color she will pass it to her sons. If the cock is a certain color he should pass it to his daughters. Of course this will be easier to identify if you have two different colored birds. This is as basic as it gets, if I add any other things to it is going to be difficult to understand.


I believe that this is the other way around. A blue cock and red hen produces red cocks and blue hens.
I know this, not because I really know anything about genetics, but I do have a Blue cock and Red hen mated together and they've been together for 4 years. EVERY SINGLE YEAR.........the red babies are cocks and the blue babies are hens. No exceptions.


----------



## yellowking (Feb 25, 2008)

i think we are both right, i said a blue hen x a red cock.

in fact in your case it should further prove the thoery.

anyways, what i am trying to say is that the young's sex should have a good chance of having the opposite color and sex to their parents.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

yellowking said:


> anyways, what i am trying to say is that the young's sex should have a good chance of having the opposite color and sex to their parents.


That's correct, but the way I understand it is...........Red is dominant, so if a cock is Red, it can be carrying Blue or Brown, in which case it can throw a blue hen, a red hen or brown hen. So if a baby in the nest is Blue, or Red, you can't be certain that it's a hen, because the red color could come from Dad, who's carrying red OR the Mom who *is* red, which would then make it a cock. 
In my scenario, blue babies or brown babies *have* to be hens because those two colors could *only* come from Dad, who is blue but might be carrying brown. And red babies would have to be cocks, because Mom is the *only *one carrying that color. I don't think he can "carry" red, because it's the dominant color, therefore he would be red. 
So, basically, in your scenario, the sex is still a guess. In my scenario, the sex is a given IF there's no hanky panky going on with other birds. 
I'm so terrible at explaining this stuff.


----------



## yellowking (Feb 25, 2008)

You are correct.

Like I said, this is for the basics. 

I said I won't go into details because it would be too difficult to understand. Cocks carries too colors, just because it is a red cock doesn't mean he carries only blue, I have a red cock that carries white. 

I get what you mean though. It is good that you brought it up to show how complicated it could get. Like I said, it is never a guarantee.

Go VIKINGS!!!! by the way....lol


----------



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*See how much fun this stuff is?*

It can get fairly complicated but if you can identify all of the genes, it is fairly simple how it works.

I'm assuming that you guys are referring to ash red when you say red but the rules on this are etched in stone. They are no longer theories and have been proven reliable by the likes of Levi and Hollander.

Ash red cock (let's assume he isn't split for anything else) mated to blue hens or brown hens makes all ash red babies, male and female. The male babies will be split for whatever mom is. They will have flecks of the color that they carry (blue flecks are actually black and brown flecks are grayish).

Blue cock to ash red hen becomes a sex linked mating and produces blue hens and ash red cocks that will be split for blue.

Brown cock to any color hen makes brown hens and cocks that are the color of mom. Another sex linked mating.

Cock birds can be split for reduced, dilute and other factors. They can also be split for recessive red, recessive white and other factors. These last two can also be carried by hens and must be in order to produce the RR's and RW's.

Dilute or reduced cock birds produce 100% reduced or dilute hens, making another sex linked mating (if the hen is intense (normal) coloration) and a good tool to know what you have. Their YC's will carry dilute or reduced respectively.

These are the simplest breeding methods of knowing what the babies are when they are born or as soon as their color presents itself. I'm only referring to fairly common colors and genetics. There are many others and some are sex linked and some are not.

I have serious doubts about egg shape as a sex indicator but who knows? There have been numerous theories on sexing pigeons and they probably all have flaws. Once you get used to a breed of pigeon, it usually becomes easier to identify the sexes just on their outward appearance. I always say that the males have a masculine appearance and the females have a feminine one. There are exceptions and some males can be fairly small and feminine and some females can be somewhat masculine in their appearance but again, within a breed, you should be able to learn to pick them out this way most of the time. The males almost always have a larger nose cere and a fuller or more masculine head and neck. They are often larger is size as well but not always. 

This spring I separated about 140 rollers, over a two day period, by their sex. I missed one out of the whole group. Some were not so easy and I had to watch their behavior for awhile. I did not know the birds in advance other than having fed them once in awhile for my son. I took them over and kept 18 pair of which one pair turned out to be two hens. This just comes from many years of looking at and being around pigeons.

Try any of these with ringneck doves and you're much more likely to get stumped. Some other dove breeds are also very difficult to distinguish the sexes and only their actions will tell which is which.

Bill


----------



## funeralflyer (Jul 15, 2008)

I raise white homers....I guess I am screwed no matter how you look at it.


----------



## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

ummm I dont get what you mean by that


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* Well I had a lady ask me how I could tell which was male and female......... I told her lift up the tail and take a look* GEORGE


----------



## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

> the birmingham roller, genetically bred to snap into a state of seizure in the sky which it rapidly spin backwards directly back down to earth at an exceptionally fast pace


It has been thaught that breeding produces the rolling... but we purchased a Roller who had been raised by "serigot?" Fantails. He didn't roll. We later purchased more Rollers and one took him as mate imediately. She later in the spring could be seen taking the lead and showing him how to toss his wings back. She did this over and over and then spead up and showed him a roll. He tried it and within a week was a master at it. I watched both of them teach their young like wise. Something to see. I do not believe after what I've seen that they truely are


> genetically bred to snap into a state of seizure


 but rather they are bred to be able to roll and they do this for fun. 
As to telling what sex your going to have...no idea. But so far we have had a fair consistancy at telling what they are after they are fully feathered. Someone told me this...who? You hold the bird head towards your gutt turn the bird upside down and pull the tail feathers downwards to expose their privates. If it's a smile (turned up on the ends towards the birds head) it's male 100%. So far sexing a male has not failed. If however it is turned downwards away from the birds head it is a female. So far this has not failed. However if it is straight across it may be male but it's best to wait and see. I have seen what appeared straight in a young bird later turn and we had a female. Lucky for me because I needed a white hen  so Smile = Male frown = female straight = wait.
Try it out and see. I'd love to hear how it works out for others.


----------



## Guest (Nov 29, 2008)

Gille said:


> It has been thaught that breeding produces the rolling... but we purchased a Roller who had been raised by "serigot?" Fantails. He didn't roll. We later purchased more Rollers and one took him as mate imediately. She later in the spring could be seen taking the lead and showing him how to toss his wings back. She did this over and over and then spead up and showed him a roll. He tried it and within a week was a master at it. I watched both of them teach their young like wise. Something to see. I do not believe after what I've seen that they truely are but rather they are bred to be able to roll and they do this for fun.



somehow I doubt that rolling is not something that has been bred into them rather then being a thing taught or homers being raised by rollers and other types would also be able to learn to roll as well and I have yet to hear this ever happening ..just my 2 cents on the subject


----------



## Gille (Sep 8, 2006)

*homers rolling*

we have some wild homers that hang around here, I've seen them at times break into a roll. So I called a buddy who raises racing homers and asked what he thought. He laughed and told me his homers which have never been near rollers also on occasion have been known to roll when excited. 
As I see it birds which like to roll we bread and in the end called Rollers. Their smaller body type makes it much easier for them to roll and they enjoy doing it. Like I said our eldest bird was taught and we watched it happen. So you may doubt but that is what happened.


----------



## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

I really thought that was a nice essay on sexing pigeons. Can I add it to my pigeon talk compilation ebook? (see signature)


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Observing behavior is the most tried and true way, pelvic width is very reliable if you have experience.(in birds that have bred) I have heard about the vodoo ritual thing of swinging something over their heads all my life. Why not just have a seance and ask the spirit world? LOL! Sex linking is great, but only if it fits in with your program. Dave


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LUCKYT said:


> Observing behavior is the most tried and true way, pelvic width is very reliable if you have experience.(in birds that have bred) I have heard about the vodoo ritual thing of swinging something over their heads all my life. Why not just have a seance and ask the spirit world? LOL! Sex linking is great, but only if it fits in with your program. Dave


AGREED.........just a few weeks ago, while at a pigeon meeting I had this old fancier come up to me.......and I mean, he's been doing the pigeon thing WAY longer than I've been alive........anyway, he was SO excited because he had bought one of those swinging pendulm thingies and said, (and I quote), "It works 100% of the time"............and he was just about as serious as I've ever seen anyone be. Recommended that I go right away and get one.


----------



## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I've been down this road and you will never find a better method than observing their behavior. It may not be the fastest way but you have the time that's your best bet.


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Recommended that I go right away and get one.


Let us know if it works Renee...Did he mention if he can tell what is what on eggs?


----------



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Lovebirds said:


> AGREED.........just a few weeks ago, while at a pigeon meeting I had this old fancier come up to me.......and I mean, he's been doing the pigeon thing WAY longer than I've been alive........anyway, he was SO excited because he had bought one of those swinging pendulm thingies and said, (and I quote), "It works 100% of the time"............and he was just about as serious as I've ever seen anyone be. Recommended that I go right away and get one.


Well- - - I wouldn't dream of saying that about you, Renee even tho' there's no doubt you've been "doing pijs" farrrrrrrr longer than me...BUT...

Just after we got our 2nd & 3rd birds, we read about this pendulum hocus pocus thingy and then saw a YouTube Video. Having absolutely NOTHING to lose (really - nothing invested in whether we had a "pair" or not, or whether there was any accuracy to this wierd stuff) and being able to try this on the cheap & at home, we decided we'd give it a whirl. We 1st tried it on every other living thing in the house. I held the pendulum, braced my arm on a table top, and closed my eyes so I couldn't see which animal was being held under the pendulum for "testing" and, therefore, I couldn't even subconsciously swing it the "right" way. The pendulum didn't just move a little - it SWUNG. We stopped it and intentionally swung it the other way ... and it "corrected" itself each time. And ya' know what, this VOODOO was 100% accurate - on 2 humans, 3 dogs, 3 cats, &, now we know, on 5 pigeons, too. That's hardly a scientific test - - - but ... well ... I'm just sayin' ....


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Yeah, right, and i have a brother in lay with some swamp land in Florida for sale! What MAGIC?  Dave


----------

