# Update/second opinion Beau the dove



## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

Good morning everyone. I'd like to post a few pictures of Beau for your opinions and for update. I have been hand feeding him (?) for the past month along with Baytril, Sulfa and Calcium that Vet provided. I know he has Pox but now I'm questioning whether the yellow I'm seeing could be Canker to boot. His lower beak is now almost completely involved including under it. And you can see the lumps on side and top of head. Small one on right eye developed and already resolved itself. Does this still look like normal pox or some other type of growths?? Any input is much appreciated.. Other than looking horrible he is active, affectionate and is enjoying evening free flying around the house. 

Gina
p.s. pay no attention to dates on photos


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Gina,

Have you taken him/her to an avian vet or rehabber?

I would definitely suspect canker and get him on Spartrix and/or metrodonizole asap.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Gina,

Bless you for caring for this bird. Trichomonas and Pigeon Pox virus frequently come together and while Baytril and sulpha meds will cover a range of conditions they won't touch Trichomonas. Can you get some Metronidazole from your veterinarian? Your bird will tolerate it better than Spartrix, which can cause nausea and needs to be given on an empty stomach. You can give a single dose of Metronidazole daily, but Metronidazole can also be given twice daily which aside from the actual administration issue, may be beneficial in this situation. You may want to drizzle a small amount of the medicine directly onto the lower beak in addition to the actual dosage. Also, a higher than normal level of protein is helpful for pox birds while fighting off and repairing from the virus.

fp


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

He definitely needs Metronidazole. Can you get some from a vet ? if not, you are still in luck, as it is one of the meds available over-counter....Flagyl, Fishzole are some other names (you can often get it a pet stores or fish/aquarium stores ~ just be sure the product has no other additives, as many brands of the fish Metronidazole often do).

You need to get him on it ASAP. A bird that small with canker like that isn't gonna hang in there too long.....how's his weight ? It's kinda amazing that you can successfully handfeed him in this condition, IMHO.....are you tubing ???

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/ had both Fishzole and Flagyl.....

....if you can't find locally TODAY, order it NOW and get it express mailed.

Or...probably quicker if you can't find a shop locally...I have a single 100mg Metronidazole tablet left here....I'd be happy to express-mail to you; you will then need to dilute properly...just PM or e-mail me.

BTW...thanks for helping the guy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Gina is apparently working w/a vet, hopefully the vet will be willing to give her
a script so the bird can get on the antibiotic today. 

fp


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

I will look for the Metronidazole today at pet/fish store. Didn't know I could get it there. I actually feed him with a baggie. After mixing the Kaytee I twist the corner of a baggie into a pouch shape and snip off enough for him to fit his beak in. He does all the work, I just hold the bag and clean up the drippy mess  The vet that treated him initially didn't impress me much. I inquired about vaccinations to keep him healthy after he recovers from pox, etc. and they told me that birds don't get vaccinations. I know from reading this site for the past few years that they DO. So my faith in their office has dropped. If I cannot find Flagyl today I will give them another try.

Gina


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Gina,
> 
> Bless you for caring for this bird. Trichomonas and Pigeon Pox virus frequently come together and while Baytril and sulpha meds will cover a range of conditions they won't touch Trichomonas. Can you get some Metronidazole from your veterinarian? Your bird will tolerate it better than Spartrix, which can cause nausea and needs to be given on an empty stomach. You can give a single dose of Metronidazole daily, but Metronidazole can also be given twice daily which aside from the actual administration issue, may be beneficial in this situation. You may want to drizzle a small amount of the medicine directly onto the lower beak in addition to the actual dosage. Also, a higher than normal level of protein is helpful for pox birds while fighting off and repairing from the virus.
> 
> fp


What can I give him to boost his protein levels? I hand feed him Kaytee since he isn't able to feed himself. Is they something they can be added to that? 

I also have some Harrison's High Potency Mash that I bought at the vet's office but Beau didn't seem to like it. I was mixing a small amount of it into the Kaytee but it is gritty and it seemed to put him off.


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Gina,
> 
> Have you taken him/her to an avian vet or rehabber?
> 
> I would definitely suspect canker and get him on Spartrix and/or metrodonizole asap.



He was initially seen about 3 weeks ago but a Vet. I haven't had any luck finding a rehabber willing to return a call. 

I will look for meds at pet store today and am waiting for another rehabber to return my call as I type this.


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

Thank you all for the advice and offers of help. Taking care of Beau is a pleasure. He may be a goofy looking lil guy but he has a great personality. I can open his cage, go sit down and call to him and he will fly right to me. When I tap on his feeding tray he comes and waits. He sits on my shoulder and chirps in my ear and will even peck on my lips to beg for food and affection. He shows no hand fear and will sit on my shoulder as I walk around the house. I've never had these types of reactions from animals that were supposedly trained, let alone from one that is suppose to be wild.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Kaytee Exact is fine. You might want to hard boil an egg and add a quarter of
the yolk into the formula as well, not only nutritious but will help to keep up the
bird's weight.

Have you weighed the dove and is the dove holding it's weight well?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

BTW, do you have a Feed and Grain store nearby? They frequently will sell
medicines and it's possible you may be able to get Metronidazole through
them.

fp


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

I have run around to all the pet/fish/bird stores in my area that i can think of and have completely struck out. I can find penicillin, ampicillin, tetracycline, cephalexin but no Flagyl. My last chance is my nephew. He is a pharmacist but won't be at work again until tomorrow. I've talked to 3 vet offices today and none of them will see him. Had one rehabber that finally called me back but she has given up her license and said she never treated any bird diseases. I will post more later tonight but I have to feed my human children now......fun fun fun.

Gina

p.s. How do I figure out the doseage of the medicine once I finally get it??


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Have you ever weighed the bird? I still could ship the meds to you,
but it's getting late here as well. Three is the cutoff time, I believe.

Back w/dosing instructions....

fp




overwelmedd said:


> I have run around to all the pet/fish/bird stores in my area that i can think of and have completely struck out. I can find penicillin, ampicillin, tetracycline, cephalexin but no Flagyl. My last chance is my nephew. He is a pharmacist but won't be at work again until tomorrow. I've talked to 3 vet offices today and none of them will see him. Had one rehabber that finally called me back but she has given up her license and said she never treated any bird diseases. I will post more later tonight but I have to feed my human children now......fun fun fun.
> 
> Gina
> 
> p.s. How do I figure out the doseage of the medicine once I finally get it??


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Do you have a 1cc syringe on hand?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Dosage is 50mg's per kilogram. Crush 250mg's in 10 cc's of water (you could go half and half here, that is 5 cc's of water and 5 cc's of Karo Syrup or Honey) and shake it up well. Use a small container or the mix will get 'lost'.

You did say morning dove so, if 100 grams, draw up 0.2 cc's of diluted medicine and syringe it into the dove. If the bird weighs 150 mg's, then draw up 0.3 cc's. and so on....
See if you can work the syringe in on one side and get in back towards the throat, then very slowly, release the medicine. Whatever dosage level you decide on based on the dove's weight, would be given twice daily, a.m. and p.m. I don't think you will be able to syringe the usual way w/this bird's condition.

You can drizzle a small amount directly onto the area around the beak as a topical treatment for the first few days.

Please let me know if you need the medicine and syringes and I'll see if I can't get it to you by Mon or Tues. at the latest.

fp


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm completely frustrated with people my area. I'm not sure if there are other Southern Michigan people on this forum that keep pigeons or assist orphaned/injured animals but trying to find Vets, rehabbers and medications for these animals is ridiculous. No one wants to help these animals. They've given me the impression that if its not a "conventional pet" then it doesn't need human/medical assistance. Again today I talked to a woman who is supposedly experienced in wild birds and she said vaccinations/ preventitive medications are not needed. No one seems to have heard of pox, canker, worms, etc. GRRRRRRRRRRR!

OK I've vented. 

Here is my status. I will have Flagyl by tomorrow thanks to my nephew  I do have 1cc syringes. Beau now weighs 3.9 oz (nephew can convert to grams) I also have Karo syrup and/or honey for diluting. I will begin adding egg yolk to meals for additional protein. I understand doseage instructions. How many days should he get the Flagyl? Another Pox question too. I know pox takes a few weeks to resolve. I've read approx 8 weeks. Is that accurate? Will he continue to get lesions the entire time?

Gina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

overwelmedd said:


> I'm completely frustrated with people my area. I'm not sure if there are other Southern Michigan people on this forum that keep pigeons or assist orphaned/injured animals but trying to find Vets, rehabbers and medications for these animals is ridiculous. No one wants to help these animals. They've given me the impression that if its not a "conventional pet" then it doesn't need human/medical assistance. Again today I talked to a woman who is supposedly experienced in wild birds and she said vaccinations/ preventitive medications are not needed. No one seems to have heard of pox, canker, worms, etc. GRRRRRRRRRRR!
> 
> OK I've vented.
> 
> ...


That's great news that you will have the medicine tomorrow, Gina, many thanks to your nephew. The general rule of thumb is 5-7 days, I'd probably
go for the seven days in your dove's case. There are therapeutic regimines
w/Metronidazole which last for weeks, so I don't believe you are crossing a dangerous threshold treating for 7 days.

I think 8 weeks is the outside time frame, 6 weeks would be more average. You'll notice less virulent symptoms/activity w/a general cessation of symptoms. 

Since you have both, I would use honey as it is more nutritious. Only submerge the tip when drawing up, it can get pretty messy otherwise.

I'm sorry for all the frustration that you have had trying to get health care
for this dove. We do have some resources which yield local leads, something
to work on later. I'm just glad this dove found his/her way to you for care,
otherwise things would have been pretty grim.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

In the event that you keep the dove, you should get familiar w/the Resource
Section of this site as there are many informative threads/stickies there:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/

In the Resource Section, you will find the Pigeon Supply House stickie which
lists the more well known Pij supply houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-supply-houses-usa-amp-australia-only-9455.html

Hope this helps and please keep us updated as to the response to the Metronidazole.

fp


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

3.9 oz = ~ 110 grams

Avian Pox has two forms, (cutaneous) charactrized by externally growing pimple-like lesions (especially on nonfeathered areas of the bird, eyes, vent..), and the other form is (diphtheritic) charactrized by internally yellowish lesions (especially on mouth, trachea.. etc). Birds can have both or one of the two forms and it takes from 4 to 8 weeks to resolve and that depends on the virulence of the virus.. when the infection reachs its peak it stops producing lesions.​


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

alhowiriny said:


> 3.9 oz = ~ 110 grams
> 
> Avian Pox has two forms, (cutaneous) charactrized by externally growing pimple-like lesions (especially on nonfeathered areas of the bird, eyes, vent..), and the other form is (diphtheritic) charactrized by internally yellowish lesions (especially on mouth, trachea.. etc). Birds can have both or one of the two forms and it takes from 4 to 8 weeks to resolve and that depends on the virulence of the virus.. when the infection reachs its peak it stops producing lesions.​


There is also a third noted form of pigeon pox virus, known as septicemic or acute which involves organ(s). 

A quote from Clinical Avian Medicine:

"A yellow coating of
the mucosa can be seen with trichomoniasis, candidiasis,
the diphtheric form of avian pox or vitamin A deficiency
or excess."

I don't know the history of this bird, but if extended antibiotic treatment has
occurred, it may be wise to have the dove on antifungal meds. Being a wild bird, it's more likely that if there is a problem w/Vitamin A it would lean towards deficiency as opposed to excess.

fp


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Actually there are four Forms (Cutaneous, dphtheritic, Systemic, Oncogenic).
Source : Diseases of Poultry 12th Edition Chapter10; Page 298 Under Pathology.

The only forms that show Clinical signs are Cutaneous (dry pox) and dphtheritic (wet pox).​


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

alhowiriny said:


> Actually there are four Forms (Cutaneous, dphtheritic, Systemic, Oncogenic).
> Source : Diseases of Poultry 12th Edition Chapter10; Page 298 Under Pathology.
> 
> The only forms that show Clinical signs are Cutaneous (dry pox) and dphtheritic (wet pox).​


I don't know if this is a generic description or specific to Poultry Pox. I can
say that the cutaneous form in Pigeon Pox has the ability to produce boils in the skin which may burst and become brittle and blackish in color. If they don't
fall off once the virus has run it's course, they can become carcenogenic and
require surgical removal. So in this instance, there is a cross-over between
cutaneous and oncological symptoms...

fp


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

feralpigeon said:


> I don't know if this is a generic description or specific to Poultry Pox.


The chapter is focused on Fowl Pox (FPV) specificly and Avain Pox (APV) in general.

After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV, And the oncogenic form is an arguable subject. [For More see Sources at the bottom of this post]

"...Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses. Canarypox frequently causes a desquamative pneumonia with occlusion of the air capillaries resulting in dyspnea..." Source: Avian Medicine; by Ritchie & Harrison [Page 872]

The septicemic form happens after the wet form and rarely after the dry form (the birds show multiple signs of illness including fluffed feathers, loss of appetite, and lethargy. they develop pneumonia, with resulting cyanosis lasting 3~4 days before death). [For More see Sources at the bottom of this post]

"..Severe diseases by Avipoxvirus occur only if the infection takes a two-cycle course. In the mucosal form of the disease, the virus targets the mucosa of the beak cavity, pharynx, larynx, and, rarely, lower respiratory epithelia. Clinical signs usually appear during generalization of the disease process following the second episode of viremia. The septicemic form of avian poxvirus infection is characterized by death of the birds during the second viremia." http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/1998/gerlach02/index.php





feralpigeon said:


> I can
> say that the cutaneous form in Pigeon Pox has the ability to produce boils in the skin which may burst and become brittle and blackish in color. If they don't
> fall off once the virus has run it's course, they can become carcenogenic and
> require surgical removal. So in this instance, there is a cross-over between
> cutaneous and oncological symptoms...


 True;
"Tumors : Some Avipoxvirus strains have oncogenic properties. Passeriformes and Columbiformes that survive infections are prone to tumor formation. These rapidly growing, wart-like efflorescent tumors of the skin are generally void of normal epithelium and hemorrhage readily when disturbed. Bollinger bodies are usually present in the neoplastic tissue but viable virus may not be demonstrated. Surgical removal of the skin tumors is an effective therapy.

.. It has been suggested but not proven that the massive cellular proliferation of interstitial mesenchyme induced by the virus can cause neoplastic changes. Postmortem lesions in affected canaries include small pneumonic foci and hemorrhages, as well as fatty liver degeneration and jejunitis." Source: Avian Medicine; by Ritchie & Harrison [Page 872]

________________________________
*Sources :*
Avian medicine; by Jaime Samour [Page 197 & 268]
Avian Medicine; by Ritchie & Harrison [Page 872]
Pathology of pet and aviary birds; by Robert Eugene Schmidt, Drury R. Reavill, David N. Phalen [Page 137]
Diseases of Canaries; by Robert Stroud [Page 103-104]
http://www.wildlifecenter.org/wp/avian-poxvirus/
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=2743
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/1998/gerlach02/index.php​


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Apology to the original poster, No intention to shift or hijack this thread. Only trying to enrich the subject.​


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i usually go 10 days with the flagyl, and i keep poxy guys on baytril until all lesions are gone, i also dab lesions once a day with diluted betadine to help dry them up. dont get into the eyes.
also after a 3-4 days on the flagyl, i very gently rub the mouth and throat with diluted betadine and q-tips once a day, be very careful, if you see blood stop, it's hurts them but helps speed up recovery


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

alhowiriny, I wasn't inclined to give a separate category to oncogenic pox, mainly because it originates in one of the other categories. 

As for your statement regarding septicemic pox being ".... only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV.", after giving a citation that states ""...*Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses*.", what can I say, the quoted statement doesn't support your conclusion.

Yes, Pigeon Pox can and does move into the respiratory system in an apparent 2nd stage of viral activity, though it can as well enter the blood stream at any time during the viral infection and colonize one or more organs. This is a microbial behavior that Pigeon Pox shares w/other diseases
that pigeons can contract. 

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I was expressly told by Dr. Speer not to have a pigeon pox rescue on Baytril, 
but to instead keep the affected areas clean and dry through topical care. Some conditions are treated w/Metronidazole for longer courses of time, though Trichomonas is generally speaking a 5-7 day treatment. I sincerely doubt that the damage to the tissue is strictly from Trichomonas, but rather a combination of canker and pox.

Betadine around the beak area would be a good idea. Boosting the bird's own immune system and supporting or assisting in feeding is likewise essential for the bird's system to be able to heal the damaged tissue. I hope this bird doesn't lose that lower beak.

fp


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

> After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is *only seen* in canaries, finches & *rarely* in neopsittacus sp. *and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV.*
> .....
> Septicemic infections are *most common* in canaries and canary and finch crosses




*sigh* its obviously from my post i meant its *only reported* in canaries/finches & *rarely* in neopsittacus sp. and *I * never found a source reporting it occured in other birds; I didn't conclude anything I reported my reading/results. All the books i've searched mentioned canaries/finchs. I couldn't find any source that state this's a generalized form of avain pox virus.

For example, only certain strains of the avain pox virus show tumors. So the question now, Does septicemic infection occurs with all strains of avipoxvirns or is it specific to certain strains? A reference would be appreciated.​


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

*Beau on Flagyl*

Just wanted to update you all on his progress so far. I've been giving the Flagyl since Saturday afternoon. I can not believe how much better he looks already  He is definately not healed yet and pox still has him all deformed, BUT! his lower beak has cleared alot . Prior to Flagyl his lower beak was so full that his little tongue only had a trough to sit in. Now it has more room to function. He is going to have a problem with the beak later on. The tip of it has cracked but is still holding on. Thanks to everyone for your assistance, support and guidance. I will give another update later.

Gina + Beau


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

that's so good to hear, he must be feeling so much better also, poor little cutie pie.
i wonder if you can reinforce that beak with anything while he heals up, maybe it will help it stay properly placed.
r maybe a tiny bit of 5 minute epoxy , you have to hold him till it's done curing and do it very carefully as to not get it in his mouth or on his feathers, it would eventually come off
wonder if anyone else has tried anything like that.
its what we do for cracked turtles cept we use fiberglass tape with it.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Beak will grow and mend with time. Vitamins A and E stimulate growth.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I think you might be able to reinforce the cracked tip for now w/super glue. Works well w/toenails, I use it on nails that develop an inconvenient rip. I'm glad the dove is doing better, I know it must be feeling whole lot better as well.
Thanks for the update and please do keep us posted. If you have time when
you are through w/the course of meds, it would be great to see some pictures.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

After typing many excerpts from many volumes of medical books that specifically deal w/pigeons and losing the post, I am not going to do it again at this time. I have Rupley's Manual of Avian Practice, Avian Medicine by Tully, Lawton and Dorrsestein, Pigeon Health and Disease by Tudor, Fit to Win by Dr. Wim Peters, Manual of Raptors, Pigeons and Waterfowl, Avian Medicine and Clinical Avian Med by Harrison & Lightfoot. There are references through out of finding poxvirus in the organs and bloodstream and systemic or septicemic pox.

A couple of well known sites for pigeon diseases both discuss pox colonizing the organs:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/diagnosis.htm

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/specificinfections-pigeonpox.php

Both contain this remark:

"The general condition is impaired if the virus enters the bloodstream and colonizes the internal organs. "

From another site:

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/Academics/course_web/current/Cvm6202V/Virology/pox.htm

"Secondary target organs (spleen and liver) are infected with the subsequent development of a secondary viremia."

Studies involving the White-tailed Laurel Pigeon have found the virus in their respiratory system.

This link discusses the third form as being "Respiratory", but this is essentially the same in different terminology as other references to septicemic or systemic:

http://drexotic.com/avian_diseases.htm

It's clear from going through these volumes that there are some different terminologies describing the same aspect of the disease. The texts are written over a span of time. One does need to sift through and put the information together oneself, but it is there and I simply don't have the time to type all the quotes back into this thread from the actual textbooks.

fp





alhowiriny said:


> *sigh* its obviously from my post i meant its *only reported* in canaries/finches & *rarely* in neopsittacus sp. and *I * never found a source reporting it occured in other birds; I didn't conclude anything I reported my reading/results. All the books i've searched mentioned canaries/finchs. I couldn't find any source that state this's a generalized form of avain pox virus.
> 
> For example, only certain strains of the avain pox virus show tumors. So the question now, Does septicemic infection occurs with all strains of avipoxvirns or is it specific to certain strains? A reference would be appreciated.​


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

would love an updated pic


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

altgirl35 said:


> that's so good to hear, he must be feeling so much better also, poor little cutie pie.
> i wonder if you can reinforce that beak with anything while he heals up, maybe it will help it stay properly placed.
> r maybe a tiny bit of 5 minute epoxy , you have to hold him till it's done curing and do it very carefully as to not get it in his mouth or on his feathers, it would eventually come off
> wonder if anyone else has tried anything like that.
> its what we do for cracked turtles cept we use fiberglass tape with it.


I did consider trying to reenforce/attach beak tip with a little super glue but at this point the area is still too swollen to realign it properly. You mentioned in earlier post that you continue to "give Baytril to the poxie guys" Should I still be giving him the Baytril along with the Flagyl? Initially Vet only prescribed Baytril, Calcium and Sulfa for 2 weeks. I still have some and was already considering restarting the Calcium due to the beak tip breaking. I've been kinda afraid of getting into an overmedicated toxic situation. 

Gina


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

After 2 weeks of baytril you want to rebuild the birds immune system.. probiotic/vitamins/ACV would be helpful.​


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

feralpigeon,

Your last post confirm my results. I've clearly stated this :



> After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is *only seen ( = reported)* in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. *and i could not find* any source that state or report it *occurred* in other *APV*​


And i've add apparently the so called "systemic/septicemic" in other APV happens in *two-cycle course & as a respiratory infection after the wet form* (which differ from the septicemic infection of CnPV "CanaryPox Virus"):


> "..Severe diseases by *Avipoxvirus* occur *only* if the infection takes a *two-cycle course*. In the *mucosal form* of the disease, the virus targets the mucosa of the beak cavity, pharynx, larynx, and, rarely, *lower respiratory epithelia*. Clinical signs usually appear during generalization of the disease process following the second episode of viremia. The *septicemic form* of avian poxvirus infection is characterized by death of the birds during the *second viremia.*" ​


Here's your own post/reply to that (which contradict it):


feralpigeon said:


> Yes, Pigeon Pox can and does *move into the respiratory system* in an apparent 2nd stage of viral activity, though *it can as well enter the blood stream at any time* during the viral infection and colonize one or more organs. This is a microbial behavior that Pigeon Pox shares w/other diseases that pigeons can contract.


So your post clearly state that the respiratory form differ from the septicemic form. And then you contradict your own post when you stated this (which btw confirm my results):


feralpigeon said:


> This link discusses the *third form as being "Respiratory"*, but this is *essentially the same* in different terminology as other references *to septicemic or systemic*:



Just a question, in your opinion why didn't the first two sites you've provided categorized the "bloodstream infection" as a third form? and why Ritchie&Harrison didn't do the same in their book (under Columbiforms; Chapter 44) but they clearly stated the third form (under Passeriforms; Chapter 43)? And the same thing with Merck veterinary manual ?

You have quoted from this site (http://www.cvm.umn.edu) right? download from the same site "this file" and go to slide 19 under Clinical signs you would find what i've attached, in your opinion why?


When I posted my reading/results i was expecting positive response from you.. maybe something like (*Great, i'll check the sources [with page numbers] you've provided.. thank you*) instead i get something like this:


feralpigeon said:


> what can I say, the quoted statement doesn't support your conclusion.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

the veterinarians at tufts wildlife clinic recommenced keeping birds i got on it the entire time they had lesions, i have only had cardinals with it.
i trust their advice and experience and i followed it
they have had no ill effects from it, one was on baytril it for 5 weeks.
it is a virus that must run it course and we can only help them by preventing infection.
i don't think he has wet pox and you would have probably lost him if he did, i would have thought so if the flagyl wasn't doing anything.
so this one is up to you, i can only recommend what i did for my guys, but i'm sure others have had different things work for them.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

alhowiriny, I think you like to diddle yourself and others. If the exclusively pigeon books and sections refer to the virus moving into the bloodstream and organs, then I believe that we are looking at a systemic/septicemic form. If you
read from the many sources, there are varying terminologies for what is clearly the same form of the virus in pigeons. The medical texts for pigeons did state that it can present systemically in pigeons, regardless of how you would like to twist the words or twist in the wind. I will not engage w/you further in this useless banter. Go get the books, read/study, see for yourself. There are no 'pat' answers, you have to collate the information. But there are studies dating as far back as in the 1920' s that show that the virus moves into and colonizes the organs in pigeons. This in itself is beyond diptheritic or cutaneous, keeping in mind that organs beyond the respiratory system were also discussed. That' s the end of the tango.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

overwelmedd said:


> I did consider trying to reenforce/attach beak tip with a little super glue but at this point the area is still too swollen to realign it properly. You mentioned in earlier post that you continue to "give Baytril to the poxie guys" Should I still be giving him the Baytril along with the Flagyl? Initially Vet only prescribed Baytril, Calcium and Sulfa for 2 weeks. I still have some and was already considering restarting the Calcium due to the beak tip breaking. I've been kinda afraid of getting into an overmedicated toxic situation.
> 
> Gina


Gina, Baytril and Calcium should never be given together. Baytril will bind w/calcium rendering it useless in its' capacity as an antibiotic therapeutic agent. Metronidazole has a drying effect and while you want to move the
canker out (again the norm is 5-7 days) you want to do so without radically drying the area too quickly by high dosing or extended medication periods. You would also worry about a bird whose immune system is this compromised developing a fungal infection from too many antibiotics and a weakened immune system under attack from the virus.

Dr. Speer whom I mentioned before is a world class avian vet who is licensed to practice in Europe and the United States. He's considered one of the top
avian surgeons/vets in the US and yes, he helped me w/a feral pigeon w/pox.
I went to him w/the bird on Baytril, and stopped the Baytril after the appointment. The pij recovered well and essentially needed the supportive care more than anything else. He recommended topically cleansing the affected areas and supporting the bird w/high protein to help w/the tissue rebuilding. If you are using Kaytee Exact, probiotics are included in the formulation, so your dove is already receiving probiotics.

If the beak is too inflamed to align it w/superglue, would paper-taping it work in the meantime? Paper tape is used on skin and considered very gentle.

fp


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

At least i never used insults at anyone to describe my own opinion, so i'm not sure about "_diddle yourself and others_" , "_twist the words or twist in the wind_", "_useless banter_", "_That's the end of the tango._"

You keep saying that i've denied its 'systemic/septicemic' and i keep telling you its "two-cycle course" and if this's the case then you should stop consider it (systemic/septicemic form) much like :



feralpigeon said:


> alhowiriny, I wasn't inclined to give a separate category to oncogenic pox, mainly because it originates in one of the other categories.


No need to get frustrated, If you couldn't quote me saying what you claim i've said, then stop putting words in my mouth. it wont give you a solid ground nor insults would give a good reputation.​


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

feralpigeon said:


> Gina, Baytril and Calcium should never be given together. Baytril will bind w/calcium rendering it useless in its' capacity as an antibiotic therapeutic agent. Metronidazole has a drying effect and while you want to move the
> canker out (again the norm is 5-7 days) you want to do so without radically drying the area too quickly by high dosing or extended medication periods. You would also worry about a bird whose immune system is this compromised developing a fungal infection from too many antibiotics and a weakened immune system under attack from the virus.
> 
> Dr. Speer whom I mentioned before is a world class avian vet who is licensed to practice in Europe and the United States. He's considered one of the top
> ...


You just gave me another reason to doubt the "avian vet" that I took Beau to intially  She is the one that prescribed Baytril, Calcium and Sulfa to be given all at same time. 

The beak tip has stabalized at the moment. Pox lesion on side of beak has dried enough to harden the area, at least temporarily. I am going to leave it alone for now and be very careful not to put any pressure on it during feeding. I'd rather not try putting any tape on the beak. He still has his appetite and I'm afraid putting anything "funny feeling" on it would turn him away from food. 

Gina


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## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

In birds kept inside (away from the sun); You want to give vitamin D along with magnesium/phosphorus, the calcium bioavailability (absorption) will be limited if there's vitamin D/magnesium deficiency.​


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

Huge ugly pox on side of Beau's head finally dried and fell off. He doesn't look like Frankenbird anymore. I'll post a new picture soon.

Gina


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Excellent news, Gina ! 

Is the gunk inside his beak subsiding at all, with the start of the new antibiotic ?

I gotta hand it to you, you get a Forum Award for Fortitude in caring for this little dove.....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh that's great news! I look forward to seeing the pictures.


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Excellent news, Gina !
> 
> Is the gunk inside his beak subsiding at all, with the start of the new antibiotic ?
> 
> I gotta hand it to you, you get a Forum Award for Fortitude in caring for this little dove.....


Yes  Canker is all clear. Just waiting for the pox on lower beak to finish drying and come off. Then I'll be able to see what shape his beak will be in. The top has a big downward curve to it from having to accomodate the lower beak lesion. I'm hoping that once everything is clear that this will eventually grow out and straighten itself out.

Gina


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

gina i want pics!!!please oh please


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you post a new updated picture?

Pidgey


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

*New pics of Beau *

Just thought I'd update on Beau's progress. I finally found an Avian Vet. Not only does he treat your routine parrots, etc. but he will also treat rescues. He is understanding of the financial situation a rescue/rehab individual is in and makes allowances for that in his fees. He is well respected, teaches and has also published a few books. 

Anyway, Beau was seen by him about 3 weeks ago. Poor baby had to stay overnight and had surgery on his beak. The huge pox lesion on his lower beak was necrotic and he ended up losing almost 3/4 of the lower beak. I am still hand feeding him. He is finally starting to grow up, adult feathers coming in and covering all his bald spots. He no longer looks like a mini buzzard.

I'm just wondering about beak regrowth. Does it regenerate or not? Seems like I've read yes and no. 

Any pointers on teaching him how to go after feed on his own. Food and water are already in deep dishes.

Thanks as always, for all the advice and support you've all given to Beau and myself. It's been a long tough road for him but he's been determined to hang on and rally


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Magnifying glass does not work well on these pictures.
Can you please post them bigger?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

What does the vet say about regrowth ? I know on Parrots, they will only regrow if a certain percentage is still intact...beyond that, they will not. But my guess is that the vet left enough for him to function ~ he would have told you had it not been.

Thanks for update...it is quite amazing....Beau was really, really at the brink based upon your earlier descriptions. You are a great caregiver, and he is one tough little guy who obviously wanted to cling to life no matter what.

Complementi !


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I can't tell how much of the beak is gone from the picture.

Several years ago, my little parrot took of part of Sammy Pigeon's upper beak...it was about 1/3 of it as I recall. The beak did grow back after a few weeks. Now it over grows and must be trimmed.


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## overwelmedd (Aug 14, 2009)

*more pictures of Beau*

There are a few more new pictures in my album of Beau. I took them tonight. Let me just say he is NOT HAPPY with me . Each time that flash went off i swear I saw  and felt him thinkin dirty words that lil birds shouldn't know


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Amazing how much better he looks than the pics you first posted on this trhead ! Truly miraculous...you should pat yourself on the back, really !

More beak is there than I thought ! That's good. I think eating out of a bowl would be no problem at all. Trying to peck something off of a flat surface, maybe.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

wow, he looks soooo much better, is he trying to eat one his own now? 
deep dishes should do the trick for him, i don't know about regrowth, your just going to have to wait and see, i think it will grow, but never be right
i'm sure he will need trimmings the rest of his life


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, he sure does look tons better. Good job! I hope his beak grows back.


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