# Pigeons and Inbreeding ~ Educate me please!



## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

I was just wondering about inbreeding. I have done quite a lot of research about cattle linebreeding/inbreeding and it can be good or it can be very bad. However, with cattle you slaughter your mistakes. Are bird genetics similar? I mean except the slaughtering part...

Tell me about Pigeons. Is inbreeding a problem? Do people practice any linebreeding? I have yet to get my pigeon books ordered from amazon and the odd bird site, but I wondering what you folks know about it.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm going to speak up here....I don't condone your experimenting with cattle and the taking of life because of your "mistake", it is cruel and inhumane. 

But , yes people, who have knowledge and know what they are doing, practice linebreeding with pigeons as a form of producing the best when there is a good variety of genes in the gene pools of both parents. Brother to daughter, and mother to son can produce some good birds.

Brother to sister results in problems, as I had youngsers that were born, blind to siblings, I didn't know it at the time, cause I was just a kid. They were quite healthy and able to eat by themselves when they were grown, and thrived. 

You will get a variety of opinions but that is my experience.


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## velo99 (Apr 8, 2007)

Moon
Inbreeding and line breeding are animal husbandry practices used for centuries. I do both. Then again I am a performance breeder. 
I would think the only need for such practices are by an experienced breeder trying to narrow the gene pool. Inbreeding wil bring the good and bad traits to the surface. It is necessary to know _exactly_ what you are breeding for before beginning an inbreeding/ linebreeding program.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

in breeding / line breeding / out crossing - each have its pros and cons. as a beginner your best bet is to line breed or out breed. Line breeding will create some good off spring if you properly do understand the standards. even you dont get pretty birds your birds will be genetically healthy.

inbreeding 2 generations in a row (brother to sister) may cause young to be infertile


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Boy, you have touched on what I have found to be one of the hottest topics around the sport. You will find people who swear by it and people who whole heartedly condem it. It being inbreeding.

There are two things that I would throw into the mix of opinions. First of all, for the vast majority of cases genetic science is genetic science, regardless of if you are studying bacteria, rats, cattle, humans or, in our case, pigeons. What has been learned by one branch of veterinary science should be studied and taken to heart by others. There are a million theories out there. Learn what makes sense to you.

The second thing I would throw out there is do your research. Yes, there are a million ideas of what is "right". With time and enough patience and perseverance, you will learn what makes sense to you. I will offer the following link as a great introduction to get you started. It really helped me focus my research and put it in perspective. Try this article:

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/breeding.htm

I would then suggest you read the articles that appear on a fellow Pigeon Talk member's site, Mr. Warren Smith. I include a link to this page as well:

http://smithfamilyloft.com/Genetics1.htm

This last article is quite lengthy but it gives what I feel to be the best expanation of the breeding process from a genetic perspective available.

Now, having said all this, please understand that this is just my opinion and know that others feel absolutely opposite of what I have stated here. Again I say that you must learn to trust what makes sense to you and proceed from there.

Hope I haven't clouded the issue for you.

Dan


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Inbreeding and line breeding. Was is and will be the key to futuer and proper breeding to maintain and improve Pigeons or any animal or bird. New breed types are also estabeleshed through this method. Or out breed cross to improve the desired breed type. Any top line of birds will have both been line bred and inbred to set certion values. Learn your breed type standard or if for racing build off the better birds that are consistant. Start with good stock and go from there. Enjoy what you do as it is a fun hobby.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

First of all...



Trees Gray said:


> I'm going to speak up here....I don't condone your experimenting with cattle and the taking of life because of your "mistake", it is cruel and inhumane.


Who said I did that stuff? I just said I researched it. I was interested in beef cattle for awhile, but we don't have the land, so I didn't end up purchasing any. But, culling (the slaughter of undesireable animals in a herd) has been practiced for years. Any bovine that isn't perfect enough to be bred is raised to be slaughtered. 

If you've ever eaten McDonald's hamburger you have participating in culling. Not a pleasant idea, but it is the truth.  

Now that has been cleared up I will read the rest of the posts.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

learning said:


> Boy, you have touched on what I have found to be one of the hottest topics around the sport. You will find people who swear by it and people who whole heartedly condem it. It being inbreeding.
> 
> There are two things that I would throw into the mix of opinions. First of all, for the vast majority of cases genetic science is genetic science, regardless of if you are studying bacteria, rats, cattle, humans or, in our case, pigeons. What has been learned by one branch of veterinary science should be studied and taken to heart by others. There are a million theories out there. Learn what makes sense to you.
> 
> ...


 Dan,

I could not have said it better myself. It is so "Hot" of a topic, that I have resigned myself to simply avoid the topic more often then not. First of all, there is a part of me which could really care less if a person understands the topic or not. I do not consider myself an "expert" on the topic, but a student of this science. And Dan, you hit the nail on the head when you referred to genetic science as just that, a science that deals with the inheritance of various genetic traits. 

In the majority of cases, I have found it unproductive to get into a discussion with someone who states they are opposed to certain breeding techniques, when it becomes apparent they lack understanding of even fundamental genetic basics. In a way, it might be like trying to have a conversation with someone who is opposed to the use of electricity 
because of it's dangers, and perhaps they heard that you can be hurt by it. 

The term inbreeding/linebreeding is really all a matter of degree. And I like to look at it as a tool. A tool, in and of itself, is neither good nor bad, but people develope an attitude based almost entirely on their own limited experience. Which means in the majority of cases, most amateur's might be better off avoiding employing such tools, until they have a better understanding of the subject matter. And the reason why I say that, is because from conversations I have with people, many do not understand what such a tool can or can not do. And I am not just talking about people into pigeons for a short period of time. Even some very well known fanciers, indicate from their comments, that they don't understand the technique, or it's purpose. 

I suspect the reason a well known famous fancier could be so ignorant, and yet still be so very sucessful, is because he has a good system, and is a great handler. And I have come to believe, that a great handler, with a good system, will beat the average handler, with great birds. So this famous fancier is not a great breeder of great birds, but he is a great handler.  

Good advice Dan, take what the students of the subject have said, and gleem what you can from it, but do your own homework. Most authoritative work done in the field of genetic science has been done with organisims outside of pigeons, but the science is the same.

I did the search engine thing and found :

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/basics/index.cfm which would appear to offer some basic concepts that would help someone understand basic genetic concepts and terms.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I stumbled across my first inbreeding experience when I had two birds mate up by mistake. I have an outcross brother and sister that mated up. I had the cock confused with his cousin. I asked some old timers whether I should chunk the eggs or not. They all came to the same conclusion that if the birds are not highly linebred that they would most likely be ok. The birds are gourgous. May even send one up to Alaska as a back up bird. The grandparents have raised me winners. Many say this is taboo to race an inbred bird. The parents were a result of a cross between very different genetic origins. I agree with Warren in the fact that I too do not know much about Genetics. I made a C in undergrad genetics class. 
This also brings me to the thought that if you do not have individual breeding pens, that up to 30% of your stock may be different genetically than you think. Makes me wonder just how linebred or inbred the youngsters are? The cock that wins the top box may also win most of the ladies in your breeding compartment. I try to separate gentic pools in my compartents. We all know that our birds do not always do what we want. If I have a father and three sons in a breeding compartment of four pair, I can rest asured that some of the family genes are being passed on to the youngsters. I bet Warren has his winners in their own pens for he is much more educated in genetics than I am. Heck I have been know to let my birds select their own mates. I won three races with a little hen whose parents selected each other when I was 12. I also founded my loft this way. I am not completely ignorant. 10 out of my 12 birds were genetically linked to Vic Miller Birds and from a fancier that has been establishing his family for 10 years. I sent 15 birds out of this buch to fly with the ABQ club. I won two youngbird races. They are flying three of the birds as old birds. After two races in upwards of 300 birds, I took 1st and 3rd the first race and 3rd and 17th second. My inbred pair is out of one of the odd ball birds. I liked the birds so much I am giving them a second round. Who knows.
Randy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

moonshadow said:


> If you've ever eaten McDonald's hamburger you have participating in culling. Not a pleasant idea, but it is the truth.
> Now that has been cleared up I will read the rest of the posts.


Thank you for responding to my post and CLEARING that up, regardless of practicing or not, that discussion is not condoned on the board, and I'm very well aware what goes on in the meat industry, and I don't eat McDonalds, never will.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Family Incest among Exceptional Quality Birds*



hillfamilyloft said:


> I stumbled across my first inbreeding experience when I had two birds mate up by mistake. I have an outcross brother and sister that mated up. I had the cock confused with his cousin. I asked some old timers whether I should chunk the eggs or not. They all came to the same conclusion that if the birds are not highly linebred that they would most likely be ok. The birds are gourgous. May even send one up to Alaska as a back up bird.....Many say this is taboo to race an inbred bird. The parents were a result of a cross between very different genetic origins.......... I won two youngbird races...... After two races in upwards of 300 birds, I took 1st and 3rd the first race and 3rd and 17th second. My inbred pair is out of one of the odd ball birds. I liked the birds so much I am giving them a second round. Who knows.
> Randy


Hello Randy,

You are a charactor !  Next time you get over this way, give me a hollar !! So we can pick each other's brain !  

There are times, when I am not so sure that just letting the birds select their own mates, is not just as good or better, then having the fancier do the selecting. Unless one is sure they are selecting better then nature herself. And how does one ever really "know" for sure ?

I never bothered telling too many people, because I doubted they would believe me anyway. It was a pair of latebreds that were kept over in 2004 because they were too young for the 2004 YB team. They were a brother x sister pairing and since everyone knows that is suppose to be a "bad pairing" most of their eggs in 2005 were thrown out, and they were used as foster parents but one slipped by. 

That offspring turned out to be a great looking bird, and so in 2006 we left this brother x sister pairing together, and they produced a hen "145" which made our combine's "top ten" list, and the AU's "American Ace" list !  So...what do you think we are doing in 2007 ? Throwing out conventional thinking and conventional "wisdom", "145" is being paired to her full brother "98" and some of these offspring are being tested in the Flamingo I.C. at : http://www.flamingoic.com/http://www.flamingoic.com/ this means that you are looking at a 2nd generation of brother x sister. 

As you would expect, I was feeling pretty full of myself.. ..untill my loft manager/partner pulled out some old photo's of some birds which were 5 generations of brother to sister. So the bottom line is, if you want typical results, then take heed of the "advice" that you will get from "typical" fanciers. If you want atypical results, then you will have to think "outside the box". 

So Randy, you are having some success with some closely related birds, don't be afraid to experiment with your more exceptional birds, you appear to be on the right track ! 

The mistake made with this type of breeding, is to expect to get something better then the parents or grandparents, that is really not going to happen. To improve and move beyond where you are at, you need a total outcross. That is the purpose of the introduction of a new line to the family. The bottom line, in all of these tools, is if you are not selecting the exceptional birds for your breeding program, then regardless how your birds are paired, your program will not move forward.


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## X3MTM (Apr 18, 2006)

when refferring to inbreeding between brother and sister, does that mean from the same clutch? or from the same parent? i have a cappuchine that is paired with a younger one....they are from the same parents, but born on different dates...about 6 months apart...would that be a problem too?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

I would think that genetically it makes no difference between two nestmates pairing or a brother sister pairing from different clutches. They would have exactly the same odds for genetic compatability. 

Dan


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## Nuke (Mar 26, 2007)

*Inbreeding.......*

Im my opinion, one does not have to breed or pair up brother and sister birds to get strong viable genetics,scientists have found that inbreeding in wild type species can lead to infertility,sterility,deformities in chicks,and an increased succeptibility to disease and sickness among other things.........Unless you know what you are doing and are keeping accurate records of breedings,lineage tracing ect,ect i wouldnt inbreed.
Even though domesticated breeds of pigeons arent considered a wild type specie the same principals apply.


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## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

A new strain can't be developed without in-breeding/line-breeding. Matings of same blood birds have been known to cause certain physical defects.
So what do you have - ? A dice toss that you can hopefully get the edge on it by strict selection of young birds for breeding as well performance.


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## Hamza (Dec 28, 2006)

Why does mating bro and sis cause problems??
Wat is mating b/w son/mother and daughter/father?? Why, if any, problems are caused by this??


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

X3MTM said:


> when refferring to inbreeding between brother and sister, does that mean from the same clutch? or from the same parent? i have a cappuchine that is paired with a younger one....they are from the same parents, but born on different dates...about 6 months apart...would that be a problem too?


Yes, from the same clutch, there is no genetic difference there. However, a second or third clutch will produce different results, if one of the parents has a different mate.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Some might argue that this point in the developmental process is the pivotal point in moving towards real genetic progress...

DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!
DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!
DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!

The answers are there if you are willing and able to find them...and willing to heed and apply what they have to say.

Dan


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

What I've concluded so far...

When and if I get my breeding pair I think I should sell the off-spring and introduce new blood until I get the whole genetics thing researched thoroughly.

~~~~~~~~

Now I will continue to reread the posts. This stuff is DEEP!!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If a person becomes more indept in breeding fine pigeons they should find lets call the name a mentor. a person to help you learn more on the breeding you will be doing. JOIN a local club if you can second a national club. No matter what you do strive to improve strive to develop what is callede the minds eye. That sets you on your way of developing you family of birds. YES many people fail because they try to move to fast, or try to set to much of the same aspects to all there birds. Balance is part of the over all picture time is the other. It is never over night And the old prpotent bird Is a very rare bird to find. When it is found Use it wisely. To say breeding is an art it really is Luck happens but it soon fails unless you have a plan.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

This is a very big topic, many have there own opinions here and only experience will teach you. even with book knowledge and experience breeding cannot be easily predicted.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Nuke said:


> Im my opinion, one does not have to breed or pair up brother and sister birds to get strong viable genetics,scientists have found that inbreeding in wild type species can lead to infertility,sterility,deformities in chicks,and an increased succeptibility to disease and sickness among other things.........Unless you know what you are doing and are keeping accurate records of breedings,lineage tracing ect,ect i wouldnt inbreed.
> Even though domesticated breeds of pigeons arent considered a wild type specie the same principals apply.


Hello Nuke,

Ah ...Yes....the Paradox....an animal breeder who wants uniform consistency, wants a breeding population which is homogenous for the various desired genes....but as Nuke noted, the more inbred and homogenous the population, the more likely that inbreeding depression and thus growth, fertility and disease resistance will be lowered. So how does one go about producing a homogenous breeding population and at the same time create race birds which are very vigorous and high in heterozygosity ? 

Fortunately, there already is a ready solution in agriculture. When two unrelated homogenous lines are crossed, the effects of inbreeding depression are immediately reversed. The term applied to this particular process is hybridization.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Nuke,

Listen to Master Obe Won Smithobe. He knows of which he speaks! 

In case you haven't figured it out, that was to be said in Star Wars tradition. Seriously though, Warren knows what he is doing and has had a breeding plan in place for a number of years.

Dan


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## Nuke (Mar 26, 2007)

I have a question to you " learning"
When on here was i condeming warrens activities??????
I said unless you know what you are doing you shouldnt do it?
I never named anyone specifically.
Dont worry i still have lots of learning to do,i am still in highschool.....


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Could someone explain heterozygos (sp?) and homogenous? Thank you!


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