# What's your opinion



## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

If you were not given any information on bloodlines and you had to choose a bird solely on appearance, what would you look for?


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

I don't know but I like the site of white homers and the more the better


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

There are a few colors that I like and white is one of them however I was thinking about conformation, ie; deep chest, large fleshy operculum and eye rings,etc, etc,? . Shape, size and contours? I also realize that looks are only skin deep and what goes on on the inside is probably most critical.


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

I like personality and posture. Do they stand up straight, do they look confident.
One old time flyer once told me if given the opportunity to go in to a loft and pick what you want, pick the birds that are on the highest perches. They have confidence, they dominate in the loft and in races. 
About half the breeders I have I bought on auctions or directly from champion flyers. I spend more time looking at the pictures than reading the pedigrees. I am no expert but, this method for choosing birds has served me well.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Eleftharios said:


> If you were not given any information on bloodlines and you had to choose a bird solely on appearance, what would you look for?


Would never base decisions on appearance only. My order of selection is simple:

1st bird I would choose is the first butt through the trap.
2nd bird is the second bird through the trap and so on. 

Not sure who wrote it, but they said that they do not give much weight on a birds appearance, but go on to say that a fancier is much happier, when given the chance between winners that are appealing to the eye and those that are not, to have a loft of good looking winners. It helps when my best looking hen is my best breeder.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

You cant tell by looking other than for health. If small and tight may be good short distance sprinter, if bigger and longer wings good for endurance and distance. Anything in between, good for both. I have a friend who's small refined hen is always first butt in the door. He has small males that all look like hens and are very fast birds. My best fastest strongest birds are smaller grizzle hens, fly like the wind.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Appearance has merit,as pertaining to the pigeon as a whole....Is everything in preportion to one another...Example,birds with long necks,or long legs,are usually not in line with the rest of the body....Does the bird look well built as a whole....Good size cock with a small head is out of place....Everything has to look like it belongs to the bird,and not looking like a Frankenstien put together....But more merit should be placed with what you feel in your hands....Does the eyes sparkle,and are color full....Is the slit/throat the way you want it to be...Which means if you have a certain way you want the throat to look like,it might not be what I like,but if you are buying/keeping pigeons for racing,you have to keep what you like...Until it`s proven wrong by you racing,and then you change your idea on the subject.....Your "Hands",once you have the knowledge,of what a Champion pigeon feels like,will guide you more then your eyes...I have seen champion pigeons that were rather ugly,but in 400 & 500 mile races,they were very hard to beat on race day...Go to the best flying lofts in your area....Ask the guy you would like to handle his best racing pigeons....Just let your hands do the talking....The birds will have very silky feathering,and will not be to heavy,and you can/will feel the strenght of the pigeons.....Then smile,and tell the man what a great feeling it is to feel what a champion feels like.....Alamo


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree with Alamo, if the guy you are going to get birds from belongs to a club you can find out what he has done. If he is always at the bottem of the race sheet go elswhere. You don't have to buy the best birds, just the best you can afford.
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Soft feathers and a bouyant feel in your hand. AND it must be a top performer, say an old bird champion. Most lofts will only have 1 best bird so you would need to get to a few lofts to see more than one top bird. AND if I was looking to start a loft with this bird it would need to be a cock.


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## Doig (May 18, 2013)

Thumbs up. 

In the past I have never handled my birds in the way of feeling them, but ever since I learned about it... 
It does have some correlation... DingDingDing, my lightbulb clicked!

I have this hen that is astonishing when in flight. When I see her take off and cross up ahead... she catches my eye.

Turns out she's my best flyer which homes perfectly.. even when my loft is abducted by overhanging trees... She is very smooth in feathers, weight feels like she is highly capable of ascending and descending height very well "buoyancy"... every aspect of this hen fits perfectly in my mind. 
Of course everyone is going to have slight differences.. but.. I hope you get the general picture here. 

OH, and she does perch on the second to highest perch of my loft.
In my loft, the younger less strong flyers perch below while the slightly stronger and older birds are settled at the top. This could just be bc of age difference...IDk... : )

Without the pedigree, the feel you get from the bird could give you insight to its ability to take to the sky. There are exceptions though, like how our fellow fanciers explained with flyers who don't look very well fit but manage to give a hard competition for others.


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

Thank you all for taking the time to help me out!


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't know when you are going to do with this information but if your looking for a bird for breeding purposes, I'd say that the blood line or pedigree is very important, second would be good(top) health. You can see this in the birds mother if she was available to look at also the other breeding birds in the loft. If you only get to look at this one bird then I'd say its health is most important, the eyes and the feather conditions will help show if it is healthy or not. Also a bird with long legs or skinny legs would indicate poor body structure also a sign of poor breeding(blood lines) and lack of vigor ( natural health).


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Have a buddy with tiny thin necked birds that I thought were hens and they are his 'fine boned" bloodline that wins him lots of races, they look so puney and deliate to me but they fly like the wind. He also has an old bird that he got rid of FOUR times to farmers market to 4 different owners and the damn thing KEEPS coming back lol, he has since KEPT the bird. My point being, he gave it away each and every time thinking it inferior but this thing just wont stay away. It has such a stubborn strong homing instinct that it escapes from other lofts and comes home. He now breeds from it. Same bird was only 2nd bird home from a 250 mile race in bad storm, all birds went down and only two came home 9 hours later same day. The winner and his (this very same escaped bird) flew home same day. I asked him what the heck took you 4 times to decide to keep this loyal, stubborn, strong minded homing bird lol. I asked him to retire it to me but he said he will die at his loft and has a home forever now, thank GOD, I said that bird deserves a good cushy life filled with a mate of his choice. I think that alot of racers prematurely get rid of young birds, dont allow them to prove themselves and mature and see who are leaders and who are followers. Another great show on tv, a guy spent 2K on a fancy doo bird blood line bla bla, was always whining bout this small hen that always trapped in next to last and he wanted to cull her cuz he felt she slowed down the team. Long story short, his 2K bird went missing never made it home from one race and the small late hen ended up being his winningest bird, go figure


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

The Body type and "FEEL". is important in picking Stock.
Any bird you pick no matter the pedigree, MUST be physically built to fly a race. Both are important, at least in my eyes.
I look for one "Feel" and look in my Homers, and another when handling my Rollers. It does not matter how many Champions are in a blood line if the bird is weak in the chest, it is weak in the chest, if it is loose in the vent, then it is loose in the vent, ect. pedigrees cannot make an athlete that is not built for the event Win.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

P.S. Homing ability, and Racing should not be considered as being the same. 
I have had homers that would home for me from just about any where, BUT were NOT fast.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

I agree Lucky, this guy was fast and had great abilities thats why I wondered why he gave it away 4 times? I agree with you that the bird has to be built for speed but I think drive has alot too do with it as well. I guess thats why its hit and miss and so many different winners all the time. Does any one breeder dominate over the other? Would love to hear stories of exceptional flights, from far or fast. Any one got any?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

We all know Drive and Heart is important. But that by itself is not enough.
Some one with weak legs, and no stamina will not Win a Marathon, no matter how much heart they have.


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## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

Guys, I have been in the sport for a year now with some rather dismal results from the birds I am flying. I am looking to upgrade my loft with some quality pigeons. 

I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject and while my German is not all that good I get the impression that the Europeans like birds that perform. (Who doesn’t)? In fact one of the guys I am reading up on tells me that his sole criteria for purchasing birds is simply performance, performance, performance. While I can agree with that line of thinking, I am not at all convinced that just because a bird performs well it will be a good fit any a particular loft. He also goes on to extol the virtues of a strong back. Any of you care to attempt to explain just exactly what is meant by a strong back? 

What I personally am looking for are some birds I can breed from that will provide for me good distance birds. Birds that will perform well at 500 miles or more, the birds I have now I am confident will develop in to good MD birds but lack the ability to excel at the longer races. 

My question is, conformation wise what would you look for in a distance pigeon?


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

Explain s loose in the vent as well. What is the significance?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Never blame your Stock for your failures. A good flyer can win with what most call "mediocre" stock. 
There is no Blood Line that can compensate for handling.
"I" Call a weak back one that gives to much when gently pressed on. THAT is just my opinion. A weak "Vent" means there is to much space between the Pubic Bones. If it is an old breeding Hen this is normal in a Yearling Cock it is a Problem, AGAIN in my "opinion"....
I have trouble describing why I like the build of ANY Birds, one Bird over another. 
It is just that I have Always handled any Bird coming into my Loft.PERIOD..
Mushy backs, WIDE vents, on anything other then old Breeding hens, do not appeal to me...... It does NOT mean it is the TRUTH, just what I am used to and what I LIKE. I spent many years looking for better Stock, when I decided to work with what I had, i started to do PRETTY GOOD.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

I like my boys to be wide in nostrils, a deep thick neck, stand up right, I want them to all have there eyes on me when I walk into the loft. the girls I want very lady like a little thinner on the beak and slightly less thick on the neck. I do like the hens to be proud standing too. i like my birds all to have thick strong shoulders. the health is important to me too. more than once i ve picked out my friends top birds just on a glance. 

eye sign and other stuff is not as important as people have you believe. the nose threw the trap first that's how you know who is a good bird or not.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

the vents in the mouth are how ever very important and i would say to anyone getting into birds watch jim jenners movies


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

i also like a good solid feeling body tight every where , the bum and that area should be tight too , my above post i ment the vail or back of the beak inside the mouth just to be clear as i can


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well put Roger.


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## Eleftharios (Oct 5, 2014)

So would it be safe to assume that a weak vent in a young bird indicates lack of tone in the body?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

CBL. I have read that birds bred from a female line over time will produce smaller henny looking cocks and birds bred from a male line over time will throw some masculine looking hens. So that could explain why your friends birds look the way they do and still fly good.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

pooch88 said:


> Guys, I have been in the sport for a year now with some rather dismal results from the birds I am flying. I am looking to upgrade my loft with some quality pigeons.
> 
> I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject and while my German is not all that good I get the impression that the Europeans like birds that perform. (Who doesn’t)? In fact one of the guys I am reading up on tells me that his sole criteria for purchasing birds is simply performance, performance, performance. While I can agree with that line of thinking, I am not at all convinced that just because a bird performs well it will be a good fit any a particular loft. He also goes on to extol the virtues of a strong back. Any of you care to attempt to explain just exactly what is meant by a strong back?
> 
> ...


Funny you are asking about long distance birds. I just happen to be reading a book about starting your own strain of long distance birds.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Given the big three:
Race Record (breeding/flying)
Physical Traits
Pedigree

I think I still have to stick with Race Record as the only criteria for selection. It drives the other two. Winning birds by psychology look better, and by results generate better pedigrees. By experience, other than my first birds I brought into my loft, I have not had any luck bringing in pedigrees to better my stock. I have yet to choose a bird on physical characteristics to bring in. The only thing I have had any luck in is to bring in winning birds. Like will breed like. If you like winners breed from winners. If you like birds with soft feathers breed from birds with soft feathers. If you want birds that are off this bird and that breed from paper. Past grandparents, I have not found much merit in paper. Just my two cents. 

Now if I could not bring winners into my loft for breeders, I would look at bringing in siblings of winners or children off of winners. I do put weight on same sex siblings and opposite sex offspring of winners. 

Everything else is pigeon religion. With eye sign being crystal ball babble.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

After all the theories, trial and error, new training methods etc. are tried. It comes down to this. If you birds are not winning after you have exhausted all; you have read about, heard from other fanciers, or theorized about, then get better birds. The babies I bred the first year won races. I kept the winners and pairs that bred winners. After 10 years I am getting close to where I want. Every breeding pair in the loft to have bred a winner at my club level or individual winning birds in the stock loft. Around 20 lofts and 300-400 birds a race is my current standard. 
I will be breeding from 16 pairs next year. 7 of 16 pairs have bred 1st place birds, 4 of the remaining 9 have a race winner in the pairing, one of the remaining 5 bred me 2nd high points bird, 2 of the remaining 4 have bred top 10 birds. That leaves me with two pair that I am paying same sex siblings of my best pair. There is no way I could have gotten here by stocking pretty birds with stellar pedigrees. It just so happens that I started with good pedigreed birds. Funny, they are all starting to look the same also, which happens to be appealing to the eye. They family races out to 400 as young birds with a sweat spot at 200-300 and have made 500 as old birds.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

To be fair to your original question, the bird would look just like the bird on my avatar Maverick. He is the son of my foundation Kahuna and won me $750 in a small futurity. He is the father of my best looking hen who bred me a race winner this year and 2nd high points bird last year. He was 3rd in show in a Grand Junction Co. Freddy Rivera was the judge. He asked me why I would put a bird in a show that was missing a flight. I told him that he won the local futurity and I was curious if he was a good looking bird. He told me he would have won if not for the missing flight.


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## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

LUCKYT said:


> Never blame your Stock for your failures. A good flyer can win with what most call "mediocre" stock.
> There is no Blood Line that can compensate for handling.
> "I" Call a weak back one that gives to much when gently pressed on. THAT is just my opinion. A weak "Vent" means there is to much space between the Pubic Bones. If it is an old breeding Hen this is normal in a Yearling Cock it is a Problem, AGAIN in my "opinion"....
> I have trouble describing why I like the build of ANY Birds, one Bird over another.
> ...



Don’t get me wrong I am impressed with the birds I have especially considering that I bought them at a local livestock auction for $4.25. I have absolutely no idea of pedigree or what kind of breeding they may represent. While I am not all that concerned with breeding or pedigrees it would be nice to know if they are Houbens or whatever. Some are not banded at all and others are from a fellow who just keeps pigeons. 
The way things stand now it’s quite a challenge to know what I should plan on putting up for breeding. The addition of a few good birds probably won’t hurt my program a lot.
I did manage to finish a couple of birds in the top 10% of our club so I am pleased with that for my first attempt. 


I would still like an explanation on what to look for w/ regards to a " strong back"??


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

a strong back to me means firm, like an athlete firm every where. i like my birds to even have a little fight to them. thick in the shoulders if you ever get the chance to look at the birds that go to derby type races where there is 1 000 000 birds and see the top 10% you can really feel the difference in the body. i ve got so much good info from this site, as you handle your top birds and look at other top birds you get an eye for things. i to believe that you should breed your best to the best. winners to winners when ever you can. if your birds are coming home and you enjoy them and you fly them often some day you will get that one that stands out. its only 1 in 100 is a good bird, 1 in 1000 is really good and 1 in 10 000 is out standing. at least that is what i believe i only get birds from proven guys that race and i listen to the guys who have bin in pigeons longer than i have lived, they know things.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

When you hold a bird with both hands , with the head of the bird is facing your stomach, spread the wings so you can look at the line between the head and tail. You can use your thumbs and push down slightly along the whole of the back . You will "FEEL" the strong back or not feel it, check at the base of the tail for the thickness of it, some birds will move there tail in different directions and some people including myself like the look and feel of the straight back tail. At the same time your feeling the back you can use your fingers and press on the birds chest muscles . They should be easy to find right along the bone in the middle, and a bird in shape will have a soft and flexible muscle while an over trained or a hard raced bird will have a hard muscle, even the color will change , purple muscle being bad and reddish/ pink is better. I have a few 500 mile birds and when I hold them I know I have a bird in my hands . There are round in the hand by the wing butts and will have a nice tapper to the tail. Nothing is out of place with them and they will look in proportion, not too tall or short with either the wing or tail, not to small either unless you have Gordon's, and most important in the feathers which must feel like silk which is both a sign of quality breeding and good health. Any good YB trainer can get YBs to fly like hell and trap fast for a peanut over a few hundred miles but it take a well build high quality pigeon to fly for hours and hours to finish a 500 mile race in good time . YBs that are held high on a pedestal for winning a 100, 200 or 300 mile race do not guarantee a good breeder for the distance events. In fact I've read and been told that Hens raced hard will not very often produce good racer at the distance as a breeder. Now this statement will be disputed and I'm sure some will have winning hens that are good breeders so this is just what I've been told. 

I have the same problem as you ,pooch88 when it comes to some of my birds, I just don't have the information on them to know what they are bred for and again what they will produce as breeders. I once believed you could put any 2 birds together and get good homers. It just take more bird to sort through to get a few good ones. What I think now is that the percentages will be more in your favor with a well bred bird from a good family line. If I were you I would look for a cock that has won a long old bird race 400 to 500 miles. It must be from a good line bred family, with a good pedigree and also be from a male line not a female dominated line bred family, to start your own distance line. 

Most of what I have and the ones that have produced winners for me have been bred by other people. I have been lucky to have been given some good stock along the way and been even luckier to have by chance mated pairs of birds that I've done well with their offspring. I am in the process for trying to learn about building my own strain so I hope what I've said helps.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

pooch88 if your birds are in the top 10% of your club and you got them for under $10 any where in north america your doing just fine. the birds i ve got for next to nothing seam to be my best too. i m so blessed for the friends in my club and in Alberta Canada. the thing about pigeons is there is many good birds coming into the world and guys do get over stocked and are looking for good homes for them. i will always try to help out a new member with birds when ever i can.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

It is expensive buying " Winners". I raced and raised 2 boys on one income. 
I Raced what was Gifted to me and did alright, won some diplomas, trophies ect.
If it was just about winning, all it would take is Money. 
I am a breeder by Nature, improving, and selecting Stock is more rewarding than even the actual Racing.
Same with my Rollers. When I started back up, My wife said go get whatever Stock you want, I settled on Birds from a local swap. more rewarding for me at least. In a few years I will have twice the satisfaction I would have If I went for the "High Quality Stock". Instant gratification is not what a Breeder is about.
I still believe an Average stock bird handled right and bred a few Gens, with good selection will surprise most Flyers.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm in no way suggesting that you can buy your way to the top. I am recommending if he is looking for long distance blood it will be saving time and money by buying a proven stud cock. Then breed that stud to proven hens that he has or if a friend has a top producer hen and is willing to share in the offspring, you will be light years ahead in the game. Let's face facts that there is only one best bird in each loft and by mating a thoroughbred stud cock to several top proven producer hens and share the babies your odds of starting a great line of birds is much better. It might be hard to find a fellow fancier who is willing to make this deal but if it works you will only have to buy one cock and from keeping your share of the young hens you will be in great shape to continue your breeding program by mating your stud cock to his daughters of these different hens and you will have your choice of two or three lines to follow. A very good start on an inbred family. You will of course need to bring in an occasionall new hen at some point to cross in your line to invigorate the blood but that's for a different post.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

http://www.pigeonauctions.com/lot.cfm?lotID=50736
Notice the big chest and the short forarm, and even a short wing, I would use this bird for middle distance

http://www.pigeonauctions.com/lot.cfm?lotID=50716
This bird has a lean look to it a longer forarm and a wing that goes back to the tail bar, I think it would do better at the distance than the first bird.
Just my opinion
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Nice eye Dave. I see that both examples are slightly inbred. The Nanez bird, a father / daughter mating. Birds in that pedigree raced 600 miles too. Bolle birds are distance blood.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

In fact I have a cock bird from Rick Nanez thats Bolle/Hofkens cross. I don't have a ped for it but I'm sure Rick would give me one if I asked him.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

When you buy a bird online you don't get to hold it so you really are getting a pedagree, but wow what a ped that Nanez bird has, winners down from winners that have bred winners. You have to hope the apple doesn't fall far.
Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have to add every thing I've herd about Rick is that he is honest.
Dave


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have to add every thing I've herd about Rick is that he is honest.
> Dave


I agree . I think when you deal direct with him and you buy a bird from him in the past he would give you the option of returning it for a different same price bird if you were not completely satisfied . I don't know if he still does that. I have worked at his lofts giving vaccinations when he was short handed on help and I've handled some of his best , what a nerve racking experience that was basketing birds worth thousands just to give them their shots.


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## Roger Siemens (Nov 12, 2011)

i do not believe for a second that a guy has to spend huge sums of money to get top notch birds, i know where my birds came from and if a person was going to race and get started i would gift them a pair with history. its always a good idea to buy birds from top fliers and ask questions if you can go to there lofts , have a look. i have held birds worth more than my house but there really is only a few guys that play on that level, but even they get to many birds and i m sure they know not every one can spend over 10 000 on a pigeon. with that said where do these birds go that have the blood lines that did not make that grade, good birds do get passed down the line. my friend was unable to band one of his top young birds on time, no band no paper work its worthless it was a gift to me. its always good to deal with guys that are honest with good birds at fair prices, and its great that they get noticed on this site over and over again.


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## Timothy0104 (Jan 10, 2014)

*I'm in need of a proven pair of long distance and tough flyiers*

I need a couple proven flyiers that have flown awesome in long distance and tough races and combine Raced our club is spreaded out 145 miles across the front and we race out too 500 miles been flying about 4 years still trying too get what the other guys seem too have winners


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If your near Pittsburgh,Pa....There is a Auction coming up April 12th....Click on the link below,then click on the NEWS page.....See the Auction info there....Mick Himich....Gary Marsh...& Joh Bianco, I can vouch for if you need distance birds....Alamo


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