# Wobbly legs



## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

My largest giant runt today seems to be off balance. I want to catch whatever it is while i can. Please help.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixy, you really need to provide a whole lot more info than this. What is the
diet, how much does this bird weigh and has s/he been maintaining their
weight? What do the droppings look like/post a pic if possible. What
supplements are you providing for the birds and what have you treated 
for in the past 4 months if anything? Have you isolated the bird and checked
inside the mouth for odors/growths? This kind of info will help folks to 
focus in on the issues better. 

fp


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2007)

Pixy,
Obviously the bird is weak but why? With just weakness as a symptom, it could be anything. I realize that a lot of people can't get to a vet for fecal and blood testing but to find out what is going on and to determine if and what medication would be helpful, you need a vet.
Is the bird eating and if so, what do the droppings look like?


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Pixy, you really need to provide a whole lot more info than this. What is the
> diet, how much does this bird weigh and has s/he been maintaining their
> weight? What do the droppings look like/post a pic if possible. What
> supplements are you providing for the birds and what have you treated
> ...


He was heavy when he got here and has maintained his weight. 
However i did vaccinate all of my birds with sal bac last week. 
He is eating the standard pigeon food that you get from the feed store. He is also continuing to sit on his eggs also which is good. 
I did look inside his mouth and nothing looks wrong in there.
I have noticed that there are some poops in the runt's side of the loft that had a distinct, nasty odor. the poops that smelt looks fairly normals but a little runny.
I also give the birds AVC in their water every once in a while. And always change their soiled water.


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Pixy,
> Obviously the bird is weak but why? With just weakness as a symptom, it could be anything. I realize that a lot of people can't get to a vet for fecal and blood testing but to find out what is going on and to determine if and what medication would be helpful, you need a vet.
> Is the bird eating and if so, what do the droppings look like?


The bird doesnt look weak to me. Just off balance


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2007)

If he's off balance, it is probably because he's weak.
If the droppings are malodorous, there is something going on but this symptom covers a lot of illnesses. The most common are canker, bacterial infection and yeast. Clostridium is an anaerobic bacteria that causes bad smelling droppings. 
To cover as many bases as possible, you would need Nystatin, Flagyl, a canker drug and either a sulphur, Baytril, Doxycycline or Clavamox. (A sulphur drug also serves to reduce the amount of coccidia in the system.)
It's possible that the injection of Sal Bac for paratyphoid may have set off a yeast infection.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pp, if it is yeast, I believe that Pixie may have Nystatin and a syringe on hand.

Pixie, you are aware that when birds sit on the nest, they have smelly poops,
correct?

Something really cheap and effective in ensuring that birds aren't contracting
illness from their eating and drinking utensils is making up a mixture of 
one half a cup of Bleach (plain, non-scented, and non-concentrated) in 
one gallon of water. Then from this one gallon solution, fill a spray bottle.
When you collect the utensils for refill Daily, set the spray bottle to "jet" and squirt the heck out of the bowls and rinse thoroughly then refill and return to the loft or cage. When you clean the feed bowls/utensils, you can use this same cleaning solution, but make sure the bowl is bone dry so that the grain
doesn't sit in moisture, especially if you top off your feed bowls. This solution of 1/2 cup of bleach to a gallon of water will kill the known pathogens that haunt our pigeons and is very mild odor wise.

Cleaning the loft daily will reduce the liklihood of your loft mass producing 
coccidiosis and re-introducing it into the system by pecking at the floor.

Along w/the visual inside the mouth, I'm assuming that there is also no
odor, correct?

Have you ever had any fecal floats done for any of your loft birds?

fp


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2007)

fp,
Yes, droppings can become odorous when they sit on eggs. They tend to hold the droppings in for as long as possible. If you add the leg weakness, it seems to be pointing to illness but we both know this is all guessing.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pigeonperson said:


> fp,
> Yes, droppings can become odorous when they sit on eggs. They tend to hold the droppings in for as long as possible. If you add the leg weakness, it seems to be pointing to illness but we both know this is all guessing.



Oh yeah, they sure can be smelly when they sit on eggs.
Even my tiny dove who has the smallest and best poopies, when she's on eggs, you better move into another room when she goes potty.
Could be the leg weakness is related from egg laying? Some compression or trauma.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, Pixie was calling the Runt a "he", so I think other egg related issues
weren't discussed.

Also, Pixie, if you believe that this bird is sick, have you isolated the bird
and it's mate?

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> pp, if it is yeast, I believe that Pixie may have Nystatin and a syringe on hand.
> 
> Pixie, you are aware that when birds sit on the nest, they have smelly poops,
> correct?
> ...


I knew that when the birds sat on the nest their poops were big but i never found that they smelt bad
I do have the nystatin. It says 1 gram in 20 ml of water. I dont think that this is how much you give the one bird is it ?  
There was no noticeable odor. I regularly check the birds mouths when i pick them up for inspection now and again. 
I was cleaning the loft daily but it is a lot of work trying to clean that huge area and then drying it off, etc. So i chose to just vaccinate them with sal bac and i got them when they were already vaccinated for PMV. I figured they'd have enough protection.
My solution was to just lay shavings down with some hay and that seemed to get the poops to dry and not stick to the floor. I change it every now and again when it doesnt start to smell clean anymore or the birds dont like to sit on the bottom.
Hmm, dont you think that putting AVC in the water every now and again would also keep the utensils clean and protect the birds from any other things they might contract.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixy said:


> **I do have the nystatin. It says 1 gram in 20 ml of water. I dont think that this is how much you give the one bird is it ? *
> 
> ***There was no noticeable odor. I regularly check the birds mouths when i pick them up for inspection now and again. *
> 
> ...


*Pixie, no, the dosing for Nystatin, IF that's what your birds need, and for
the product you have is:

1ml of mixture per 100grams of body weight, twice daily. Shake well before 
drawing up in the syringe. So, best to give (again, if needed, in the a.m. and
again in the p.m.).

**OK, I think you are referring to the mouth here in terms of no noticable
odors. How about the droppings, was the odor you complained about
outside of the norm for a pigeon who is nest sitting? Also, you are certain 
that the pigeon is a male and not a female, is this right? When does this bird
specifically sit on the nest, timewise, during the best part of the day or night?

***If you vaccinated for Paratyphoid, then that is what they are protected
for by that vaccine and nothing more. Also, vaccines that I've looked at for
PMV have "a shelf life" in that birds must be vaccinated annually. Do you know which manufacturer's PMV vaccination was used when your birds were
originally vaccinated?

Pixie, has your loft set up changed since last winter? Anyway, regardless of
size, your birds need the same care whether the loft is big or small. What kind of wood shavings are you using, btw? I'm not keen on wood shavings
as mold, bacteria and the like have a good substrate for growth w/many kinds of wood shavings. Regardless, changing every now and again isn't really adequate hygiene for your birds. They need their living quarters cleaned
daily and thoroughly cleaned once a week. The same would be true of their water bowls especially, they need to be cleaned and sanitized daily, this is a must.

****Not meaning to be rude or unkind, but this "every now and then" phrase seems to basically be saying that you will do it when it is convenient as opposed to what is necessary for healhy birds. You need to have a schedule for cleaning the loft, cleaning and changing the water and food bowls and stick to it. If you aren't currently on a regular schedule, then your loft protocol is just not adequate. Also, if you are feeling that you are currently overwhelmed w/the chores of caring for your birds, you definitely shouldn't be thinking of adding more to the living situation. You should be thinking:

One bird = work+enjoyment

Two birds = more work+enjoyment

Three birds = even more work+enjoyment

I think you get my drift, they are a pleasure that comes w/alot of work
and responsibility. I would suggest that you bring the Runt w/health
problems into a veterinarian to be seen before you think about acquiring
more birds who likewise will need medical expenses and alot of care.

Here's a link to Foy's, you can also send them sample droppings and have
them evaluated:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/health.html

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> *Pixie, no, the dosing for Nystatin, IF that's what your birds need, and for
> the product you have is:
> 
> 1ml of mixture per 100grams of body weight, twice daily. Shake well before
> ...


He sits on the nest towards the end of the day. I havent seen or watched for his poops yet. /but i havent seen some poops that are a dakr green and stinky. ill have to watch for his poops.
I dont know when they were vaccinated by PMV or where it came from 
My loft setup has changed definitley. These birds are inside the new loft on the larger side with nice floors.
I say now and again for cleaning the floors because i change their litter when it get dirty, its just not a schedule i have or at least i dont notice i have. 
about the litter- Your right about the mold and what not but i dont get any because its ventilated and i change it. I was thinking about switching to the cedar litter to deter bacteria(if im right)lol.
With the ACV. I know your not rude I meant now and again because i dont give it to them everyday. Its like every other day or 3-4 times a week. I do change their water everyday though. 
I know the brids are a lot of work and i do plan on getting more. (black diamonds and a pair of saints) I dont mind the work because i have fun when im doing it!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

OK, it sounds as though he is on the 'cock schedule' for nest sitting.
You did say that you'd noticed a smelly one on his side that was kind
of runny along w/his wobbly legs, right?

Is there a vet locally that you are connected with that you can bring your
birds to?

You'll need to check into the coverage span for the vaccines that your birds
are getting.

A link to the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

And from it:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13286

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

Just for some ideas on health regimines and loft care. Also,
sounds like you should also get some vitamins and other
supplements for your birds in addition to ACV. They also
need some treatments for cocciosis, canker, and worms
routinely at intervals througout the year and before the
breeding season. 

There is also this list of vets and rehabbers, check and see
if any are close to you, and if not, you can call the CT listing
and see if she can recommend someone to you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8817

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think ill check with my vet that we have for our dogs. He should know about birds too, right? lol. I forgot to mention, but i did just recently worm them all and put scatt on them. I want to purchase some vitamins also. But WOW. it is so hard to choose the right ones! There are vitamins a-z. I got a catalog from foys along with my order and found something like supervit , i forgot the name. But is was a broad spectrum vitamin supplement. Should i go ahead and buy that? Or do you know something that i should get? BTW the birds also have grit.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixie, I have Red Cell and Winsmore. I don't know about supervit, maybe
other members are familiar w/it and/or you could post a link to the vitamin
that you mean.

Generally speaking, birds are seen by Avian Vets who are board certified avian vets. This isn't to say that other vets never see birds, but if they aren't familiar w/birds, let alone pigeons, they may not be of much help to you
as a general rule of thumb.

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am having trouble with the dosing because i dont have a scale for the birds and have no way of telling how heavy he is.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Noticed Pixy mentioned _hay_, which members have said is bad due to possible mold.

Pixy also mentioned bird sitting towards END of day...isn't that more of a hen schedule? 

Mr. Squeaks, being alone, sits day and night!  

Weakness, if hen, possible lack of calcium??

Hope all goes well, Pixy! 

Just some comments....carry on...

Shi


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