# WORMS.. eugh.



## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

I ivomec'd all my birds today, and one of them has already poo'd out some worms. I have a feeling it's from the wild malards that come and try to eat from around the loft. I will be watching them, but are there any extra things I should do??? Are the worms transmissible to humans??? This is so nasty, I feel like I've let my pijies down.

Thanks in Advance!!!
Matt


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

PapaPigeon said:


> I ivomec'd all my birds today, and one of them has already poo'd out some worms. I have a feeling it's from the wild malards that come and try to eat from around the loft. I will be watching them, but are there any extra things I should do??? *Are the worms transmissible to humans??? *This is so nasty, I feel like I've let my pijies down.
> 
> Thanks in Advance!!!
> Matt


Yes. Try not to eat them! I know that they start looking pretty good when you've got leftover spaghetti sauce but... just say "no!"

Clean up all the poop for awhile and torch the floor if possible. Otherwise, they'll get reinfested. How can they get it from the mallards? What's the route of transmission?

Pidgey


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*ha ha*

HAHA OK I will try. Maybe it's not the mallards, I just can't think of anything else that would cause it, can they just "get" worms??? Eugh I feel gross after dusting them and medicating them, haha im taking a shower.
THANKS!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Matt, 

You've got to treat your birds with the Ivomec for 3 times, with 2 week intervals in between.

Once worms have been detected in your loft, it's VERY hard to completely eradicate them. You will need to treat the entire flock twice a year, every year to be sure that they remain worm free. 

As Pidgey said, "torching" the floor of the loft is one idea, but it's not always feasible or workable.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Oh...yuk..Pidgey! 

Do you know what kind of worms they are?

I would be extra careful and clean poop up daily & disinfect, and don't forget to give them another dose in another two weeks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The worm eggs can live just waiting for a long time. Pigeons will occasionally eat some poop and once you've got it going in the loft, it just gets everywhere. By and large, you're fairly safe yourself but that's usually because they don't find them in us--I don't think that it means that the worms CAN'T grow in us.

I don't know if you know the life cycle but it works like this--they hatch, penetrate the intestinal lining and go into the blood stream where they land in the lungs, grow awhile, get coughed up and swallowed to grow to adulthood in the intestines where they eventually block them off if there's enough of them. If you've got several worms coming out of one pigeon, then you've probably got a breeding pair in there and they're spittin' out bunches of eggs to get into the rest of the flock.

If you used a microscope, you could monitor the random poops in your loft to see this kind of thing coming from a mile away.

Pidgey


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*ok...*

Thank you guys alot. I only have 5 birds, so hopefully it will be easy to control/detain. And I'm not letting them breed because I'll be going off to college etc... I am going on Spring Break tomorrow to Florida, but I'll be back on Friday. Hopefully they dont ALL have worms. Most of the loft is wire flooring, so the poo goes out and away. Irreguardless I will be on alert.
3 Consecutive weeks, at 2 week intervals confuses me a little. Does that mean med, wait 2 weeks, med, wait 2 weeks med???


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> I don't know if you know the life cycle but it works like this--they hatch, penetrate the intestinal lining and go into the blood stream where they land in the lungs,
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 

This isn't really true of all species of worms. Lung / gape worm migrate to the lungs but hair/thread & round worms stay in the intestines. If Matt can actually see these worms, then they are round worms. Hair/thread worms are nearly microscopic and un-noticable. Lung/gape worms aren't very common in pigeons, they can occur, but not nearly as often as thread or round worms.

My birds had both types of worms (hair & thread worms) way back when and I needed to do a lot of research on them to find out their ways and how they live and breed.


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*I see*

I can see them... BLECH.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

What wormer are you using? What do the instructions say?

Usually there is a second dose two weeks later to kill off any new worms that hatch.


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*wormer*

It's the ivomec injectable. I give 2 cc's down the throat.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

PapaPigeon said:


> 3 Consecutive weeks, at 2 week intervals confuses me a little. Does that mean med, wait 2 weeks, med, wait 2 weeks med???



Hi Matt, 

Yes, Sorry...my post was not very accurate, I adusted it since. You want to give all your birds (1) dose of ivermection every two weeks, for a total of three times. So after completion, it will take you 6 weeks to finish the treatments. After this, treat them twice a year, preferably before the breeding season and then again in the fall.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

PapaPigeon said:


> It's the ivomec injectable. I give 2 cc's down the throat.



Hi Matt...that's too much! I don't have the exact dose on hand but it's very small. You'd need a syringe that contains less than 1 ml. My birds take a dose of about .16ml/ cc's. Your pigeons would roughly need about half that, so about .08ml/cc's.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This is a clinical study that proved that roundworm larvae (specifically Ascaridia columbae) intravenously injected into the bloodstream ultimately completed the tracheal journey back to the intestines. You only get to see the abstract, though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=448604&dopt=Abstract

Another webpage stated that some of them (the larvae) do penetrate the intestinal wall. I'd gotten that life-cycle from an article in one of the vet-books that I have but I can't post that here. There are more than one species that appear to fill the bill as "roundworms" though.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pidgey, 

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on your toes....this is never my intention. It's just that I've experienced "worms" more than I want to remember. Certain species are more common than others but you're right, there are even subspecies amoung those. I'm following general practices and treatment suggestions.

Also, I'm going by my own personal experience with the common types, "round & thread" worms. The knowledge I gained in how to treat them, was instructed to me by my vet(s). My knowledge of their general ways and habits, came from researching the net and other sources.


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## PapaPigeon (Dec 22, 2004)

*ok*

I will reduce their dose, that what I though Brad I just wanted to double check. Plus 1/2 of it they spit back out somehow.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Brad,

Oh, I'd just love to find something that was really definitive but that's tougher than you think. When you think about it, it has to work like this: you have to infect the birds and then kill them at intervals and carefully disect them and search through the different tissues, looking for the critters. It's a needle-in-a-haystack kinda' thing. 

There's a lot more species of the miserable pieces of living spaghetti than you'd ever want to believe. Dispharynx nasuta is one that we almost never talk about on here but pigeons sometimes get them. This is a good article on them (but it's not about them getting into pigeons):

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27255--,00.html

Pidgey

P.S. Don't ever, EVER, *EVER!* worry about stepping on my toes--if you know or think something that's in contradiction to something that I've said (written), don't be afraid to call me on the carpet about it--I'd rather find out I was wrong and fix it than have folks thinking I won't tolerate correction! Crap, there's a book that has an article that I purposefully go back and read every few years because I start quoting it wrong on a regular basis. Call it a sanity check (which I keep failing somehow!).


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Matt, the dosage does seem high. Did a vet give you the dose? I honestly don't know if you use the same dose for worms as for mites but we have some Ivomec for MITES that is 0.1% concentration and we give 0.06 cc orally for each 200 grams of body weight. Dosage for the mites is once weekly for 4-6 weeks. So lets hope someone else knows. You don't want to overdose.

We use a wormer called Pyrantel/Strongid with good results 2xyear. We have to weigh each bird and then give them the dosage based on their weight.We give it to them once, wait two weeks and dose for the final time.

Maggie


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## brisbanepigeon (Feb 27, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Matt, the dosage does seem high. Did a vet give you the dose? I honestly don't know if you use the same dose for worms as for mites but we have some Ivomec for MITES that is 0.1% concentration and we give 0.06 cc orally for each 200 grams of body weight. Dosage for the mites is once weekly for 4-6 weeks. So lets hope someone else knows. You don't want to overdose.
> 
> We use a wormer called Pyrantel/Strongid with good results 2xyear. We have to weigh each bird and then give them the dosage based on their weight.We give it to them once, wait two weeks and dose for the final time.
> 
> Maggie


HI,

RE: Pyrantel/Strongid -You said you give by weight, at what dose/g?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Folks, 

The good thing about Ivermectin is it has a fairly wide margin of safety. I always prefer these kinds of drugs in case we slip up. When I go "shopping" for medications, I always look for the kinds that are the "safest" but still very effective. 

However, there is a huge difference between 2 ml and .06, .08, or .16ml! 

Glad to hear you are cutting back on the dosage Matt, that was way too much and even though it's a "safe" wormer, that would be considered a big overdose.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thorned Rooster,

DID YOU SAY TORCH?

What sort of torch are you speaking of, and where would one purchase one of these. It seems to me...a torch would get rid of just about anything, wouldn't it? 

Feather


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Clean up all the poop for awhile and *torch the floor if possible*. Otherwise, they'll get reinfested. How can they get it from the mallards? What's the route of transmission?
> 
> Pidgey


Seems drastic and dangerous, doesn't it? Well, that's the way they used to do it with the old blowtorches that ran off liquid fuel. It was quite an art to get it done without "burning down the house". This is the kind of torch they used to use:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/512891494/2633390600073664377GhZIjV

Let's just say it's a good idea to have a water hose at the ready.

And, yes, it pretty much gets rid of everything.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yep, Pidgey is right and you just need to lightly burn all the floor surfaces and perches. Bleaches, chemicals and cleaners will not ensure that the eggs are destroyed.

This is an older concept of ensuring that a loft is cleared of worms and eggs. The thing is, the eggs can remain in the environment for literally years, dormant. All it takes is the right conditions; warmth and moisture and those eggs can be re-activated and if consumed by pigeons again, will start the entire infection process all over again.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just to add my "worm 2 cents" :

After I had Squeaks for almost a year, I noticed a worm moving in one of his poops. I had worked for a vet and knew a round worm (whatever type it was!) when I saw one. Just to be on the safe side, tho, I took the little beast to show Dr. Burke. He prescribed Panacur. Squeaks was medicated and then re-medicated a few weeks later to break the cycle. 

He passed SIX more of the little suckers!! Man, those worms really had a party in him!  However, this was about 2 years ago and I haven't seen a worm since.  

HOWEVER, I still watch...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, it's the loft environment that often requires the more drastic measures. House-kept pigeons are kind of a different story. 

If only you could create a loft with small toilets and train them...

The nearest thing to that is rallow's LucyLiu, who has a special paper that she uses. Rallow is the member who raised The Dinkster from the egg that I sent. I think he's working on potty-training Dink, as well. It'd be a dream come true...

Dinkster pix: http://cbargains.com/dw/D-pics.htm

Pidgey


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Oh my pigeons are all potty trained...to go on me. Hasn't Rallow ever hinted on how he got Lucy Liu to go on paper. WONDERFUL! Thank you for the pictures of Dinkster. Yes, I can tell by looking at his pictures that he is a VERY special little guy.

When I bought my wormer, the people at the feed store sold me a product called Wazine. I have never heard anyone on this site mention it. After I treated the birds, I went on a worm hunt, and I didn't find a one of the little beasts. I'm afraid that this product didn't work. I have never seen a worm, but somehow that hasn't convinced me that they don't have them.

I like the torch idea, just hope it's not a windy day when I get my hands on one. I have visons of a bunch of singed pigeons, and a crispy verson of myself with a torch in my hands. 

I just have never seen anyone use a torch in real life before. I take the papers that I lay down and set a match to them, when ever I feel that I can get away with it. Are they still used? Are they legal in California? Where do you get them? How many products does one have to use to kill all of the different kinds of worms?

I keep thinking of the famous phrase "Where ever there is smoke...there is Pidgey!"

I had a racoon that use to use the toilet, he would flush it first though.
No one taught him.

Feather


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Newer torches probably aren't too good to use because they increase their efficiency by way of generating a smaller, hotter, more concentrated and cleaner burning flame. It was the old torches that used gasoline or diesel with the pressurizing pumps that made the larger, softer, more voluminous flames that were used. I inserted a picture link in post #22 above. You've surely seen one of the old ones in an antique store or somewhere.

The worms to worry about are the eggs that are about 100 microns in length--you can't see them with the naked eye but there're a wigglin' and tryin' to creep up yer shoes and legs...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feather said:


> Oh my pigeons are all potty trained...to go on me. Hasn't Rallow ever hinted on how he got Lucy Liu to go on paper. WONDERFUL! Thank you for the pictures of Dinkster. Yes, I can tell by looking at his pictures that he is a VERY special little guy.
> 
> I had a racoon that use to use the toilet, he would flush it first though.
> No one taught him.
> ...


Rallow uses the reward system and gives LucyLiu a very special cheese that she's become addicted to. Look him up and email him about it, if you really want to know...

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Feather said:


> When I bought my wormer, the people at the feed store sold me a product called Wazine. I have never heard anyone on this site mention it. After I treated the birds, I went on a worm hunt, and I didn't find a one of the little beasts. I'm afraid that this product didn't work. I have never seen a worm, but somehow that hasn't convinced me that they don't have them.
> 
> Feather


Hi Feather, 

Wazine is also called piperazine and I have heard it mentioned here before but very rarely. I believe it's only used to treat round worms. It probably worked for treating these kind of worms if your birds had them. After treatment, they will poop out these worms when they detach from the instestinal wall. You can easily see round worms because they are about an inch long or so.

Now, thread or hair worms are much, much smaller...almost microscopic. They still could have these because like I said, I don't believe the Wazine will treat this kind. Also, when these worms are pooped out, it's very difficult to see them, unless they are moving and you're looking VERY closely. 

Ivermectin treats both round & hair worms and is a very good and effective wormer for pigeons. Perhaps you could try this if you are feeling that your birds might have worms or just to feel safe that they are rid of them.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank You Brad!

I'm a thumpin! I will buy what you recomended. I have many birds, and I'm not lucky enough to be the only one with a wormless loft. I always have the feeling that they are there.

Pidgey,
Thank you for the pictures of the torch and of Rallos babies. I will e-mail him right now to see how he trained Lucy Liu.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Round worms, or should I say their eggs, can remain in the soil for 100 years and still hatch, according to a study done in Russia. Round worms do like humans, so hygiene is important. Ask anyone who's gotten a case of them from Sushi. Pipperazine acts on the worms by effecting the worms nervous system, in effect paralyzing them and causing them to 'let go' and get pooped out. The round worm does have the 'auto-infest' cycle and will also migrate into the major organs as well if left unimpeded. They've also been found, well, let's just say in unspeakable places that would make your hair stand on end.

You have to read the description carefully of what the different pij supply house
wormers are reporting to kill. Also, it is good to rotate your wormers as you would other medications to ensure that their efficacy remains intact.
Ivermectin, will not kill all round worm, according to Dr. Marx, although still a good medicine. Just need to know what the spectrum is and proceed from there. 


http://members.tripod.com/racing_pigeon/health_page.htm

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...w=pigeons+worms&d=aMmL6BbfMYew&icp=1&.intl=us

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thanks fp,

Good information! What does kill eggs? The thought of harboring the little devils, which by the way will outlive me makes me want to burn down my loft every 4 months.

Thorned Rooster,

I contacted Rollow, I told him that you were bragging about his birds. He discribed how he trained her, and you were right, it is with the reward system. So you guys pay attention, and remember that us hens can do the impossible....when a reward is at the end of the task. 

Have a great day everyone,
Feather


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

So you guys pay attention, and remember that us hens can do the impossible....when a reward is at the end of the task. 
Feather[/QUOTE]

*True, so true, Feather! Well said!!*


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Feather said:


> So you guys pay attention, and remember that us hens can do the impossible....when a reward is at the end of the task.


And us guys don't mind rewarding... 

We just get a little perplexed when we have to guess (with our somewhat limited imagination) as to what that reward should be! 

After all, a good sandwich is all the reward WE ever require...

Pidgey


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## re92346mos (Jul 21, 2005)

Heres a little tip that I do. I put some (Ivo. Sheep Drench) in the birds bath water every time they take a bath. Kills two things at one time, worms and lice.


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