# Question about Color



## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

I have some questions about the color of my pigeons. I dont have any pics of them yet, but i will discribe them in my question.

I have 2 white pigeons that have a small black spot (ones the size of a quarter and other a little bigger) on them, both under the wing. I know the one is a cock, not sure about the other. Would this be considered flecking or is it just a small amount of blue showed up? The offspring off one of the birds when paired with red piebald had a red pie and a black pie, The other pair was with an all white, the offspring was pretty much all white with some light red and the other was all white with black band on the tail feather. 

I also have to whites, that paired up, and there first hatch produced all white.
So Im guessing there is another color (black) in the two birds with the small spot under the wings.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

*Closer Look*

I went home at lunch time and took a closer look at my birds. The offspring of the white and white with small black spot under wing - One has a kind of grizzle patter with red, but then near the tail feather there is some black. 

The other pair, white with small black spot under wing, and red and white pie or splash (im not to framiliar with the correct marking names) One of the offsprings is red and white pie or splash, and the other is black and white, on the black feathers the tips are brown. Pretty neat looking I though. 
Its pretty cool to see what comes from a pair of birds, This is my first group of breeders, I just let them natrually pair up. I think im going to start making pairs and see what colors and patterns I end up with.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Pics will be interesting when you get a chance. Sounds like you may have some with pied genes and some with grizzle on blue and ash red color.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Need some pictures.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

*Here are some pic*

The first 2 are the years hatch from the pair in the second pic.

The rest are just random pics of some of the other birds I have.

Please feel free to give specific names to the colors.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

nice looking birds you have, the top two and the parents are red velvet ( ash red ) the others are pretty pieds or splashes


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The first four birds on the top line are ash red velvets. Or ash red T pattern if speaking genetically.

The rest are pied birds, Looks like one is blue and the rest are ash red.

The white birds that have blue patches are not carrying any flecking that can help to determine the sexes.

Flecking only occurs in ash red birds. So the first four birds in the pictures, If any of them that carry blue and are cockbirds will show flecking.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. 
Will the pied birds always produce pied young? Its seams to be what im ending up with. I do have a pair of whites that did give me two pure white babies. Which I was happy to see. I had another pair of whites, but after further inspection I saw the small blue patch on them and figured that is why they produced colored babies.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Rooster808 said:


> Will the pied birds always produce pied young? Its seams to be what I'm ending up with.


Pied genes have not been sufficiently studied, but most people agree that there are both recessive and dominant pied genes. If you want to breed solid birds (non-pied), try not to breed solids to pieds. The amount of white in pied stock sometime tends to increase when breeding pied birds together.


Rooster808 said:


> I do have a pair of whites that did give me two pure white babies. Which I was happy to see.


Solid whites with bull eyes are often recessive white, and will produce more pure whites. Recessive whites cannot produce any color pigment.


Rooster808 said:


> I had another pair of whites, but after further inspection I saw the small blue patch on them and figured that is why they produced colored babies.


 Pure whites can also be bred from pied birds, but the offspring will often have a spot of color here and there, because the pied birds can produce color pigment, but he white parts are not 'covering' all the colored / pigmented areas.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Also the last picture you posted, with the group of feeding birds, seems to have a white bird with a strange tail, probably due to grizzle or undergrizzle. If you get us a better picture of that bird, we could give you a more accurate diagnosis.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

Ok, Ill see if I can get a better picture tonight. I would like to get some grizzle birds. Not sure if its possible with what I have. I had a grizzle yb when I got these birds to begin with, but he got lost. So some how they guy I got them from produced a grizzle. He just lets his birds pair up at will.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Grizzle isn't all that uncommon in many breeds, and can hide rather well when pied is also involved.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* HI Well I have been looking at these photos for the last 2 days. I believe that there may well be Indigo at work here Looking at the two birds in photo #1 they could be Het. Indigo with a T-check patern. The parents of the first two birds are seen in photo #2 could be ****.Indigo checks The birds in photo #3 can be seen in photo #4 , both seem to haveblue looking tails which is a trait of Het. Indigo. I sure wish that when people ask questions on color that they would post pictures that show the wing opened up and tails spread. If any of you have DR. GIBSON'S book go to page 42 and you will see some very intresting photos of homozygous (red mimic indigos)* GEORGE


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

Ill see if I can get some pictures tonight with wings and tail spread. Ill get them posted tomorrow morning if I do. Thanks for the advice.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

Ok, I got a few pictures. This was quite a task. My birds arent really tame and I had my 4 yr old holding the camera while I held the bird in view of the viewfinder and she snapped the shot. 

This fist bird is the from the first clutch of Ash Red Velvets that my pair had. The ash red yb in pitcure about are the sencond clutch


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

Here is the tail feathers of the white bird with the black tail feathers.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

Here the last one I got before my daughter had enough. :0) He is in the front on the right side in the picture with the group of birds feeding above.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

That tail looks like homozygous grizzle to me.

The other birds might be homozygous indigos, as George said. Their tails look very dark for ash reds... Its even harder to tell with these better photographs ;-)


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

What is this indigo color mean? The Ash red birds all have grayish tail feathers.


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## Rooster808 (Oct 25, 2011)

After some reading and looking at pictures I see what indigo is.


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