# Questions Regarding Homeopathic Remedies for Paramyxovirus



## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Hello all, I just registered on this forum in the hopes that someone may be able to offer some advice for a diamond dove that has been struggling with paramyxovirus. He has had symptoms for quite a long time now (since fall of 2012) and has never been able to fully recover. I’m not sure if it’s possible the virus could still be residing within him or if it caused permanent neurological damage before he was able to fight it off. I’ve done my best to provide supportive care and he still does his best to eat, drink, and preen himself, but just recently the symptoms seem to have gotten worse. The first odd thing I noticed was the way he would hold his leg out at an angle while eating and sometimes limp around (possibly due to leg paralysis?). He loses his balance more frequently to the point that I’ve seen him tumble backwards onto his back and he now leans against the cage for support when he eats. He’s become more restless at night, doesn’t have as much energy during the day, and hardly pecks at the millet he used to love so much…
I’m very worried for him and hope that he hasn’t started feeling any sort of pain. 2-3 weeks prior to these sudden changes he had to be given an antibiotic for some bacterial infections and I’m not sure if that could have something to do with it.

In a nutshell I found the information below on a couple other websites as well as in a sticky on this forum and was wondering if anyone has tried or had any success with these remedies. I would also need to know the proper dosages for a diamond dove as they are much smaller than pigeons. If I tried to give him too big of a pill or tablet he would probably choke on it! There also isn't any mention of possible side effects and whether or not each remedy should be given separately or if they should be given all together. I have recently moved to the Fairfield/Vacaville area of California and am unaware of any pigeon/dove experts nearby who would have the experience to help. If anyone has any information or recommendations please let me know! 

"SOME USEFUL HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES
• I have had some success treating the paralysis/stroke symptoms of Pigeon PMV using the homeopathic remedy Conium Maculatum (common hemlock) dosing with a single tablet of the 30 potency three times a day for up to 10 days.
• Birds that tremble and fall over when they try to move because their balance is impaired may benefit from Argenitum Nit 30 potency, one tablet given 3 or 4times a day for up to 2 days. 
• Belladonna can be used for birds that are restless with convulsive movement and jerking limbs. 2 pilules twice a day. 
**Remember not to touch homeopathic pilules with your hands, this can contaminate them and reduce effectiveness, give them on a clean mouth (no food or additions to the drinking water 20 minutes before or 20 minutes after) and stop the remedy as soon as an improvement shows**"

P.S. Apologies in advance if I'm unable to respond right away


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I'm wondering how a diamond dove contracted PMV. Was he exposed to pigeons that had the virus at the time? 

(The virus itself ceases to be active after six weeks from the time of infection, but we do know that both neurological and kidney issues can remain.)


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I have had great results with Spirulina. I have now three pigeons with PMV neurological symptoms. One has got rid of them completely. Another one ocassionaly (quite seldom) twists the neck. She is sick with an enteritis caused by an unknown pathogen and this complication may have delayed the curing of the neurological symptoms. Another pigeon, who was the worst, staying on her back without movements for more than a month, now stays on her leg, walks and enjoy the company of the other one, who pecks her.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

John D: When I first got him I was living in an apartment where there were a lot of pigeons on top of the buildings. I read that the virus can be spread through the air so I'm thinking he must have caught it one day when I had him outside in the sun or it may have come in through the A/C. I wish I had known such a disease existed as I would have tried to get him vaccinated 

AndreiS: I'm so happy to hear that Spirulina has been able to help your pigeons, especially the one that was laying on her back for so long!! I would definitely like to give it a try myself, how would I go about giving Spirulina to my dove and where can I purchase it from?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

You can buy at any drugstore or those shops that sell natural remedies and products.

The person who recommended it to me said to give 500 mg / pigeon / day. I'm using capsules, as the solid tablets are big and harder to swallow. Either give the capsule on throat or spill the contended powder in the water or the liquid food if you hand-feed the bird. 

Don't spill the powder into the food of the birds that eat by themselves because they're confused by the green color and may avoid food and because the power goes to the bottom of the feeder and they don't get much of it.

If you give the capsule as it is, wet it well before puting in their mouth and push it down their throat. I noticed that the capsule may stuck in their throat and stay there fo a while (until is disolved by water and the content is flushed down into the crop) which may impede them from eating so maybe is good to hand-feed afterward with some big (corn) wetted seeds that will push the capsule down if was stuck.



I want to add that I noticed the improvements only after starting giving spirulina regularly. For a month or so, when I gave it only 1-2 times there were not spectacular improvements. Also, if you don't have many pigeons, the vaccin is not a good idea as you have to do it again and again. A bird that had PMV and cured from it becomes immune.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

A pigeon, or dove, can recover from PMV even without any medication, so it's hard to say if a certain medicine helped, without a serious scientific study.

Nevertheless, scientific studies came to the conclusion that homeopathic remedies are nothing more than placebo, while other scientific studies concluded that no placebo effect could be noticed in dogs, and I'm sure, even less in pigeons.

A "homeopathic remedy" contains an otherwise harmful substance, based on the presumption that, diluted, "like cures like", an affirmation that has never been proved. Furthermore, the "active substance" is so diluted, that a pill might not contain even a single molecule of the original "active substance". It's only sugar, nothing more. The idea that you shouldn't touch a pill containing only sugar, in order to avoid "contamination" is ridiculous, to say the least.

As for Spirulina, it can be a useful food supplement, so even in the absence of a scientific study about its effect against PMV, it surely does no harm and it contains a lot more than just sugar.

The treatment I know about contains 3 medicines that are proven to be effective, although I can't say it's some wonder cure.

1) Vitamins, especially complex-B vitamins, possibly in the form of brewer's yeast. Complex-B vitamins are known to help reapair damaged nerve cells.

2) Piracetam, 100mg/day for a pigeon, probably half of that dose for a dove. This should also help with neurological symptoms. Overdose is not dangerous.
Unfortunately in the US Piracetam is not approved either for medical use, or as a food supplement.

3) An antiviral drug. This should normally be first on the list, but in your case the virus is probably long gone, with only neurological symptoms left, so you shouldn't need that.

And of course, force feed a bird that can't eat, or doesn't eat enough. And keep it in a warm place.

I've had such relapses of neourological symtoms in pigeons that had previously recovered from PMV, fortunately after a while they got better again. 

In the case of a female that had had a very severe form of the disease, this started about a year after she had initially recovered, and the symptoms came back again and again over an interval of a few months. Fortunately she has been feeling better for more than 6 months now, eating on her own and even able to fly a little.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

About Spirulina:


_Microalgae contain substances of high biological value, such as polyunsaturated fatty acids, amino acids (proteins), pigments, antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals. Edible blue-green algae reduce the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines by inhibiting NF-κB pathway in macrophages and splenocytes. Sulfate polysaccharides exhibit immunomodulatory, antitumor, antithrombotic, anticoagulant, anti-mutagenic, anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial, and even antiviral activity against HIV, herpes, and hepatitis._

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria#Dietary_supplementation


I think many / most so-called homeopatic remedies are bogus, but not the case with spirulina.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I will not classify homeopathic medicines and cures as bogus. we have it very common in India and even homeopathy hospitals just like the ayurvedic and english medicine hospitals. I myself use homeopathic medicine more than english medicine. However even here veterinary use of homeopathic medicines is only catching up.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

AndreiS: I was able to find some at a Vitamin Shoppe that wasn’t too far from here . The capsules did look pretty big so I ended up getting the tablet version but I’m planning on using a pill crusher to turn them into powder. Thanks for letting me know not to put any in his food as I was thinking of doing that originally. Since 500mg is recommended for a pigeon I will start out with half of that for his smaller size and see how it goes. To make sure he gets the full dose I’m planning on mixing the powder with a small amount of water so that it can be given using a medicine dropper. Thanks for the extra information on Spirulina as well, it definitely sounds like one of those green super foods! If the symptoms don’t completely go away I’m sure there might be at least some improvement, I will post back with results.

jondove: It’s definitely a shame there haven’t been more studies done on PMV. I had actually never heard the term “homeopathic remedy” until now and based on your definition perhaps that’s why no one seems to have tried the above options other than the person who originally posted them.
I’m glad to hear that about Spirulina, do you think it would be okay to give it along with brewer’s yeast? I have read about the importance of B-vitamins but I never found out what would be the best/safest source. I will keep Piracetam in mind as another option as well but I am within the US so I’m not sure if I would be prevented from ordering some from outside the US.
I see you mentioned that some birds may not eat enough and one thing I’ve always wondered is whether or not my dove is eating all the different types of seeds in his seed mix or only some of them. In the latter case perhaps he’s become malnourished over time and the spirulina and vitamins could really help him out, one can only hope…
If he does get better I’m going to be worried about relapses as well but if I can see him go back to the way he was with either little or no symptoms even for just a little bit I would be happy. That’s great to hear about the 6 months I better not say anything to jinx it! I’m sure all pigeons/doves with lingering issues are grateful for whatever time they can experience being “normal” .

sreeshs: I’m new to the world of homeopathy and appreciate hearing different opinions. It sounds like you’ve had good experience with what you’ve tried and perhaps one day there will be more information and studies done to help us learn more about the effectiveness and safety of homeopathic medicine.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Update: The powder needed a lot more water than I was expecting to be turned into liquid form so I'm going to try cutting the tablets into pieces, getting them wet to soften them and give them to him that way instead.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Its easier to buy capsules. They are smaler in circumeference (not in lenght) than tablets and easier to lube with water. The spirulina is very sticky if humidified, it sticks to your finger and tro bird's throat. If you manage to buy capsules, you also can give it (the powder content) mixed with water or liquid food. I noticed tha if given mixed with food, they like it while mixed with water, it doesn't impresse them.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sreeshs said:


> I will not classify homeopathic medicines and cures as bogus. we have it very common in India and even homeopathy hospitals just like the ayurvedic and english medicine hospitals. I myself use homeopathic medicine more than english medicine. However even here veterinary use of homeopathic medicines is only catching up.


*Yep, they work!

I have used calcium/D3 and B complex vitamins and garlic successfully with pigeon displaying PMV symptoms. They definitely are the nutrition for the nervous system and dealing with stress. It is also good to have a multi-vitamin mineral, as vitamins are also depleted upon a bird is under stress.*


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

AndreiS I went ahead and ordered some capsules (found a much better price online for the same brand that was at the store) and am going to give them a try. I'm still a bit worried about him choking but hopefully it's all in my head since I don't have a good idea of how big his throat really is. With the tablet pieces I was able to feed him the amount I wanted but you're right that it does become sticky and it's a hassle to try and soften the sharp edges that result from cutting. If the capsules don't work out for any reason then it sounds like mixing with liquid food would be the next thing to try.

Skyeking thanks so much for your input. I have some Zoo Med Avian Plus powder as well as a bottle of Vita-Sol Multi Vitamin liquid supplement but I found them at Petco/PetSmart so they might not be the best.

I read up on garlic a little bit and came across this product:

http://www.strombergschickens.com/product/Brewers-Yeast-Garlic-16-Ounce-Powder/Pigeon-Medications

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? It mixes garlic with brewer's yeast which jondove mentioned above so I was thinking about getting it. There aren't any reviews or anything though so I'm not sure how well it works or if something else would be better .


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

You can mix it with water but take care to shake it well so that as much possible of the substance to become ingested, because the power tends to stick in the corners of the inside of the syringe, thus remaining there.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Thanks I appreciate the tip . I've noticed he's started having diarrhea after giving the spirulina, is that normal?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I think is not from spirulina (I didn't have such problems). By diarrhea you mean aquaeous droppings (relatively formed feces surrounded by transparent liquid) or disintegration of feces into a mass of mucous fluid? Aquaeous droppings can be from stress, not necessary an infectious disease.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

He seems to have been having both types actually. Yesterday afternoon they were a very dark blackish green and didn't seem to have much visible urine. This morning when I gave him fresh seeds and water I didn't add any supplements and skipped the spirulina dose as well to try and let him clear his system out and isolate what could be causing the issue. Throughout the day his feces have gone from being mucous-filled (one was abnormally large and brown in color) to finally a little more normal looking but surrounded by the transparent fluid you mentioned. I'm thinking maybe the spirulina combined with the vitamins in his food and water became too much for him to handle . Starting tomorrow (or as soon as his feces seem normal enough) I will see how he does with just spirulina for awhile.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Neither vitamins or spirulina can influence its digestion, they are like normal food.


What you say about droppings make me think at coccidiosis but I may be wrong (voluminous, mucoid etc). 


If you give probiotics, that will improve his digestion in the highest degree.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I don't think you need to give them vitamins as well as Spirulina. It may be just a little too much, as Spirulina does itself contain a varied range of vitamins.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

One more thing about Spirulina: I've read somewhere on internet (can't remember where) that it must not be given after afternoon, so not in the evening or night. 

Also, during pmv, pigeons must have around, beside grit, red stone (crushed brick).


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Oooh that sounds scary  do you know how pigeons/doves would acquire such a disease?

I have some unfortunate news: I ordered the smallest dose of spirulina capsules I could find which was 380mg and received them yesterday. I tried to give him one today since his feces seemed back to normal but it was just a tad too big and wouldn't go past the opening of his throat . Based on what I observed today that might have been for the best though--I still gave him half of a tablet (250mg) and noticed his feces afterwards were enlarged and watery again. I ended up finding some information saying that spirulina can cause diarrhea but only if too much is taken, so I'm going to start giving him as small of a dose as I can easily cut (probably an eighth) and see what happens again. I feel so stupid for not starting smaller to begin with.. he is actually less than half the size of a pigeon after all. It might also be possible that he just isn't eating enough seed to balance out.

I will also be sure to keep giving the spirulina around 3 to 4:00 like I have been and not anytime in the evening. I was giving him probiotics for a little while after his last antibiotic treatment but long story short I forgot the container in the fridge when I moved and I'm not sure how soon my mom will be able to mail it to me if at all. Is there any particular brand of probiotics or red stone that you would recommend?

John_D I'm hoping you are right and it isn't something more serious. I'm going to try and find the right dose of spirulina for him before I start adding anything else and I'll be sure to do that one thing at a time as well.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

What kind of probiotics were you using? The specially manufactured probiotics don't need refrigeration. Were you giving yoghurt? That is not good for birds, as they can't assimilate lactose, which causes diarrhea. You have to give probiotics from pet shop / vet drugstore and if no available, from human drugstore. Read the package to see if they contain lactose and if yes, look for another product. The only animal-specific probiotics I can find here in Romania has lactose as excipient and lactose, beside causing diarrhea, helps e-coli grow as e-coli are able to live feeding on lactose. Also, if possible, buy a seetener-less probiotics product as any sweet helps candida grow.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Parula, I think your best bet is to hold off on any of these supplements for a little while. All they can do is provide whatever vitamins and trace elements the birds may be lacking, and they really should just be given occasionally. If a bird is eating a good mix, or is being fed a healthy diet, then daily doses of anything else are just not needed. A lot of people say that probiotics should be given for a few days after a course of anti-bacterials. That's as may be, and is a different matter. 

Personally, I have little faith in these various wonder foods, etc. that pop up on the internet quite regularly. They are usually intended as a human health supplement, and aren't going to achieve anything except - just possibly - as part of a normal healthy diet (Goji berries was a good example). I never seem to see any conclusive evidence from independent documented clinical trials, either. I believe that if some of these amazing cure-alls did what was claimed, the pharmaceutical industry would have snapped them up


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

John, probiotics are recommended almost by any vet or animal specialist as well as by by human physicists. Is beyond doubt that they are necessary for rebuilding the good intestinal flora, which takes places place slower without them. Probiotics are produced by drug industry.


Spirulina is a complete protein and is recommended by prestigious organisms:

_In 1974, the World Health Organization described Spirulina as "an interesting food for multiple reasons, rich in iron and protein, and is able to be administered to children without any risk," considering it "a very suitable food." The United Nations established the Intergovernmental Institution for the use of Micro-algae Spirulina Against Malnutrition in 2003.

In the late 1980s and early 90s, both NASA (CELSS) and the European Space Agency (MELISSA) proposed Spirulina as one of the primary foods to be cultivated during long-term space missions._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement)


The pharmaceutical industry is not manufacuring spirulina and other naturally-extracted supplements perhaps because falls out of their range of activities, which is the creation of synthetic products that requires a more complex procedure of production.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Hmm I think you both bring up some pretty good points .

AndreiS I was using 68 Soluble as that's what was given to me by the last vet I went to and he didn't explain why it needed to be refrigerated. It looks like I should look into getting a different brand though because according to http://valleyvet.naccvp.com/index.php?m=product_view_basic&u=country&p=msds&id=1646030 lactose is one of the ingredients. I had never used probiotics before and wish I had known to look out for that! 

John_D I agree that a varied and healthy diet would be the best and should normally be all that's needed but because of his symptoms I haven't been able to provide that for him . I've also never tried giving him any probiotics or supplements up until just recently.

*I think you just touched on the root of the problem and perhaps what I've been needing the most advice with all along. His diet has been comprised mainly of just seeds and grit because any time I try to give him anything else (such as chopped spinach) he can't get ahold of it. To make matters worse, he's started spending pretty much his whole day next to the food bowl, pecking constantly, missing most of the time and taking a rest every so often. Despite my possibly-too-late efforts to do something I also think that he won't be able to make proper use of the spirulina or any vitamin & mineral supplement I give him if he's not getting enough seed or other food to begin with. Is it time to start force feeding him somehow? Also just to provide some more info I've been using the seed mix recommended on this website http://diamonddoves.webs.com/careofdiamonddoves.htm#440145726 but without the white millet. A list of the ingredients is here: http://www.abbaseed.com/Seed_Products/1900/1900.html *

I appreciate everyone's help and patience with me as I learn more about the proper nutrition for pigeons & doves and what my options are to try and help my little guy out.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

You should give a pigeon seed mix. If not available, buy (pop)corn, dried peas, sunflower, sorghum (if you can find), wheat. Peas and sunflower must not be, each of them, more than 5% of mix.
Given the mix you were giving, no wonder you have problems.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

I think the problem isn't the seed mix (see information below) so much as the fact that he isn't able to pick up enough of the different seeds. It does contain ground peas, sunflower, and wheat, just not popcorn or sorghum. When I fed him pigeon/dove mixes before, he seemed to focus too much on the sorghum and couldn't eat a lot of the bigger items. I'm pretty desperate at this point though so I'm going to head out and see what I can find at the store today. If I provide him more of a variety to choose from hopefully he'll be able to pick up more...

"The American Dove Association recommends a mixture of 50% finch seed and 50% white millet. They will also benefit from a small pellet such as Purina's Small Bird Maintenance Diet. They also recommend treats including spray millet, corn bread, wheat bread, sweet potatoes, crumbled hard boiled eggs with shell, cottage cheese, shredded carrots, and chopped greens."
http://www.diamonddove.info/bird03_Caring.htm

"Diamond doves do better on a good quality finch mix like Kaytee Forti-Diet Pro Health Finch. They are a bit small to eat a lot of the things in supreme dove."
http://www.petco.com/product/5460/Kaytee-Supreme-Daily-Blend-Dove-Food.aspx

"Diamond Doves should have access to a quality Finch seed mix (millets, canary seeds, etc.), mixed with Quail pellets and some wild bird seeds."
http://beautyofbirds.com/diamonddoves.html

"Diamond doves enjoy a diet consisting of millet or canary grass seed with the occasional wheat and milo seed portions added. Special treats can be served on occasion, such leafy green vegetables, broccoli, apples, boiled eggs, cooked rice, peanut butter and grated cheese."
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-species/profiles/diamond-dove-2.aspx

"Nutrition
Feed her 1-2 teaspoons per day of a pellet or seed-based, fortified finch diet."
http://www.petsmart.com/live-pet/live-birds/diamond-dove-zid36-4041006/cat-36-catid-700005


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Despite my complaints about my dove focusing too much on sorghum seeds I ended up getting http://www.petco.com/product/5460/Kaytee-Supreme-Daily-Blend-Dove-Food.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch specifically so he could have some again plus anything else he might be able to get. Ironically they seem to have changed the picture on the bag to a larger dove instead of a diamond lol. I think he loves sorghum so much because they're the easiest for him to pick up, it's just a shame that they're used as a "filler seed" and don't have much nutritional value. When I found that out and realized that was mainly all he was eating I figured he needed a more nutritious seed mix to help combat his pmv symptoms better.

I also got http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=20315 (he was originally being fed this at the PetSmart before I took him home) along with http://www.petco.com/product/120446/Kaytee-Foraging-Blend-Bird-Greens.aspx which he may or may not be able to/want to eat. Unfortunately I couldn't find any "quail pellets" or "Purina's Small Bird Maintenance Diet" pellets, but he was pretty happy tonight having 3 different bowls of seed to choose from and making a huge mess haha. Based on the way he laid down with his chest out at one point he may have even gotten to the point of feeling full


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

They love sorghum because of the red color. Some of them love red seeds the most, perhaps becauee these seeds contain iron.

If the bird doesn't feed enough, why don't you handfeed him/her?


When a bird doesn't feed on his/her own is either because has incoordination of movements because of pmv, eiher because has some digestive problem. The digestive problem can be a parasite (canker, coccidiosis) or bacteria lining the intestine, or canker nodules in crop, proventriculis, throat or mouth, or candida in crop. Is not that the bird doesn't like the food anymore but he/she feels that there is something blocking the food to enter the next compartment (throat, crop or gissard) either because he/she feels that the intestine is too weak to digere hard food.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Oh I see that's interesting, I bet he's wishing I got him pure sorghum without all the other stuff lol.

Lately I have been considering handfeeding and even got some formula but I still can't decide whether or not it would be the best thing for him. Throughout the entire day he'll eat a few seeds at a time and then rest for awhile before eating a bit more. I think he's been eating better than before but is there any way to tell for sure whether it's actually enough? Number of droppings maybe? Would it be safe to give him a small amount of formula once a day to make up for what he could be lacking?

P.S. I've still been giving him some spirulina


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Maybe he can't east solid food because of bowl infection, canker nodules or slow crop.

How do the droppings look?


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Yes it will help to hand feed 3 times a day.


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## Parula (Feb 11, 2015)

Droppings have been a bit runny again hopefully probiotics will help when I get a hold of some. All these diet changes must be stressful while he's sick


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