# Need Help With Baby Woodpigeon - Slow Crop - Very Swollen



## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

Really sorry to use capitals but I feel this is some what an emergency. Leonard seemed a bit swollen yesterday so I put him on a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel (as directed on here), unfortunately I came to check on him an hour later and he was panting with his mouth open. I took him off the hot water bottle and he seemed to recover. It was really hot here yesterday so I think that and the hot water bottle over heated him. I tried him with apple sauce this morning (also as directed on here) and it doesn't seem to have done much good. He's more swollen than yesterday and his poo is almost all water with a tiny bit of brown rice like pieces.

He has been eating a 50/50 mix of quiko egg food (http://www.petco.com/product/14860/Quiko-Classic-Egg-Food-Supplement-For-All-Birds.aspx) and porridge for 8 days. I put some soaked wild bird seeds down the day before yesterday as they seemed to be trying to peck at things, they picked up a couple and may have eaten 1 or 2 but they didn't go down too well.

Although these are wild birds I am now very attached to them and will take him to the vet for treatment if necessary.

I will try to add pictures.

















He's the one on the left.

















His last poo, it seems to be getting more and more watery.


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

I am in Elsecar South Yorkshire but can travel.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Metaclopramide increases crop motility but it is only available vets. This is the advice given by Kaytee Exact :: 

CROP SLOW-DOWN: If crop slow-down should occur, first check for proper environmental temperature as this is a frequent cause of crop problems. Then mix equal parts of exact Hand Feeding Formula and infant applesauce or provide additional water by preparing exact at the ratio of one part exact to two or three parts water. Provide this mixture for approximately 24 hours and then slowly return to the normal concentration of exact over an additional 24 hour period. During this time, massage the chick’s crop gently to break up any food aggregates that may develop. Never massage the crop when it is more than half full. Allow the crop to empty before feeding again. This method will quickly allow the gastrointestinal tract to stabilize and become fully functional again. The appearance of dark green droppings in a hand fed baby may indicate a temporary shut-down of crop emptying (or the lack of food in the digestive system). If this occurs and the crop contains food, the rate of crop emptying should be immediately evaluated. If no improvement is noted within 36 hours, professional assistance is advised.


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

Should I take him to the vet tomorrow for Metaclopramide or should I continue with the apple sauce for another 24 hours do you think? Will any vet do? 

P.S I was told to phone the rescue centre back when they were fully weaned so they may get a place in rehab yet.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

IMO, why the crop slowed down is more important to know.
Since the droppings are not passed down at normal rate,they don't look good,not much matter in them and squab is handfed there's a huge possibility that candida might have over grown which can cause crop statis.
Pigeons and doves have different needs than parrots,finches etc. At this age pigeons/doves need solid food like grain mix preferably soaked for 2 hours. Please don't feed the young until their crops empty (everytime).
How many times are you feeding a day?
Does his crop's skin feels like double-layered? He needs vet examination...


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> IMO, why the crop slowed down is more important to know.
> Since the droppings are not passed down at normal rate,they don't look good,not much matter in them and squab is handfed there's a huge possibility that candida might have over grown which can cause crop statis.
> Pigeons and doves have different needs than parrots,finches etc. At this age pigeons/doves need solid food like grain mix preferably soaked for 2 hours. Please don't feed the young until their crops empty (everytime).
> How many times are you feeding a day?
> Does his crop's skin feels like double-layered? He needs vet examination...


I think the reason it happened is probably the temperature. I upped their feed from 20ml every 4 hours to 40 ml every 4 hours a couple of days ago on the advice of a rescue lady I was speaking with. This meant feeding one one syringe, then filling it again for the 2nd, after that 5-10 minutes had passed and the second guy got slightly cold dinner. I've resolved this by getting hubby to help. We both take 1 bird each now so the porridge mix doesn't cool down too much.

They aren't weaned yet however I have introduced a few soaked seeds that they pecked at a bit. I can't just change overnight but had started the process before this happened. They feed at 8am, 12pm, 4pm, 8pm and 12pm. They normally empty their crop fully before feed time. It is just this occasion that one didn't. 

Does his crop's skin feels like double-layered? I don't know what this means, it feels like a thick skin.

His crop was fully deflated this morning when I got up, just a little saggy. I have given 40ml porridge / quiko mix and he has taken this well. He seems more lively also.

I would like it made clear that I am doing the best I can with no previous knowledge of birds. The rescues near me couldn't take them in so I've had to learn fast. 

What should my next step be?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thanks for helping and raising these cute babies Amanda.
The formula in the link is not appropriate for squeaker of this age. This formula would be helpful in initial days because at that time squabs need protein and fats.
As I said before pigeons/doves have different needs than other birds. They are Granivores and Don't need to be fed formula like this, that often at this age. The formula itself could very well be responsible for squab's this condition IMO.
I think you would like to hear from a well known avian vet


> *Dr.Colin Walker says...*
> 
> 
> For purposes of feeding, the growth period in the nest can be divided into four stages. Initially the hand-rearing formula must mimic ‘pigeon milk’. Pigeon milk is high in protein and fat, with a high water content. Carbohydrates are virtually absent. As the chick grows, the diet becomes progressively more similar to the adult diet. Gradually, the level of protein and fat decreases while carbohydrate and solid matter levels increase. A number of diets are commercially available. A commonly used brand is Roudybush (Dr Roudybush is an American vet who established and runs a bird food manufacturing company). Two suitable formulas are Roudybush Squab Handfeeding Formula (which is essentially a pigeon milk substitute) and Roudybush Formula 3. These and other similar diets can be purchased from specialist bird outlets.
> ...


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I personally will never recommend egg formulas for pigeon/dove squabs after they're 8 days old.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Feefo said:


> Metaclopramide increases crop motility but it is only available vets. This is the advice given by Kaytee Exact ::
> 
> CROP SLOW-DOWN: If crop slow-down should occur, first check for proper environmental temperature as this is a frequent cause of crop problems. Then mix equal parts of exact Hand Feeding Formula and infant applesauce or provide additional water by preparing exact at the ratio of one part exact to two or three parts water. Provide this mixture for approximately 24 hours and then slowly return to the normal concentration of exact over an additional 24 hour period. During this time, massage the chick’s crop gently to break up any food aggregates that may develop. Never massage the crop when it is more than half full. Allow the crop to empty before feeding again. This method will quickly allow the gastrointestinal tract to stabilize and become fully functional again. The appearance of dark green droppings in a hand fed baby may indicate a temporary shut-down of crop emptying (or the lack of food in the digestive system). If this occurs and the crop contains food, the rate of crop emptying should be immediately evaluated. If no improvement is noted within 36 hours, professional assistance is advised.


good advice. 

amandahardy, 

I would not get into reading too much information at one time that does not relate to the immediate problem.. the info feefo has given is the best place to start.


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

Thanks guys I'll take him to see a vet tomorrow for the Metoclopramide. Will update when I do.


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

UPDATE:

I took him to the vet who said I needed to see someone else, (long story), eventually I got him seen by someone else but his crop was back to normal, not just deflated but the skin wasn't saggy any more. Vet said no treatment necessary. 

I carried on with the weaning process, dropping the feed to 3 times a day then twice a day and introducing a seed mix plus peas and sweetcorn. They didn't take too well to the peas or corn (frozen kind warmed up) but they enjoyed the seed mix, especially Milo. They have both took flight but neither are particularly agile.

Penny (originally the smaller sister) has overtaken Leonard in growth which is strange because Leonard was originally bigger (why I thought he was the male) They are both almost fully feathered and have lost most of their yellow fluff.

The problem is Leonard wouldn't eat this morning. When I show him the syringe he is usually really giddy, flapping his wings and lunging forward but not this morning he kept turning his head away from it. He also wouldn't peck at the seeds in front of him. His crop feels totally empty.

Is this part of the same problem? New problem? Not even a problem I'm just easily worried? 

Any advice would be great, thank you. XXX


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi amandahardy,
Thank you for update. I was waiting for it,actually.
See,when we have a live animal to raise we need to know necessary info especially about its feeding and general upkeep. So that we can help and not harm the creature. The above info is very basic and we must follow to raise a baby bird.
Metoclopramide is basically an antiemetic which stops vomitting and sets the body contractions right. Birds don't vomit until things are bad or something isn't done right. So to know what's causing things to go skeptical must be found. I think it will be good if you can get the birds/their droppings/throat swabs examined by a knowledgeable vet.

I'm so glad that your squeakers showed improvement after you fed them accordingly. And their bodies started to function properly and crops aren't hanging anymore. Thanks for your efforts.

Size isn't a guarantee of sex. If the bigger one is lagging behind in growth something maybe causing it. It maybe canker and/or candida.
Have you observed the used to be bigger one closely? He might be showing some symptoms.
Sometimes its all about the personality. Every bird has its own personality and habits. If he's not trying to pick the seeds up then don't worry for now if he's otherwise fine. Keep handfeeding him so that he don't get weak. He will start to pick seeds on his own when he's ready. You can encourage him to pick seeds by offering him seeds in palm of your hand and pecking on them with finger of your other hand like a bird would,when he's hungry. He will learn.


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

UPDATE: 

He's eating again, not sure what was wrong with him yesterday morning but it seemed to pass.

Hi Jazz, I'm not sure I follow what you were saying in the first paragraph. Is it in reference to the food I'm giving them?

Unfortunately I'm pretty much stuck with what Pets at Home sell as there was no time to order anything online and there are no specialist shops near me. The quicko was the nearest thing to Kaytee formula I could find, it had all the necessary vitamins that a growing bird needed and it could be soaked and mixed with porridge to create a good baby food. It was all they had that was suitable.

The recommended Pigeon mix I found online here; http://www.npausa.com/keeping/feeding.htm. It said I needed corn, peas, Vetch, Wheat, Oats, Barley, Buckwheat, Milo, Millet, Canary Seed, Flax and Safflower Seeds.

My mix is cockatiel & lovebird food from Pets at home which contains; Yellow Millet, Whole Oats, Canary Seed, Naked Oats, Sunflower seed, Red Millet, Safflower seed, Hempseed, Buckwheat, Japanese Millet, Panicum Millet, Linseed, Nyjer seed. I am adding Corn and Peas (originally frozen but warmed up) and removing the big sunflower seeds because they are too large.

They pick up the peas and corn but don't swallow it. they love the seed and mostly eat the Milo. Mostly Penny is the smarter one and Leonard will follow her lead. Which is quite funny if you have ever seen the big bang theory it's the other way round, anyway, they're both picking it up (literally).

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Canker they don't have, both their mouths are nice and pink. Pennys droppings look totally normal, like bird poo should look, dark round lump with white on top. Leonard (the one with all the problems) has more solids than he had before but still in a pool of water. I'll try to get a photo later on. Candida might be an issue with Leonard; Depression, loss of appetite, delayed crop emptying fit but he's never vomited.

Getting them seen by a *knowledgeable* vet might be more difficult, the first woman I saw is my regular vet and she pretty much said she doesn't do birds, she sent me to another guy in different branch and although he seemed to know a little, he was still not great. He pocked his chest a bit and said he was fine. 

What should I do from here? Thanks for your help I really appreciate it (as does Leonard). XXX


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

Sorry there was one more thing I meant to ask, worms, lice and mites, do they need treating now? What with? As they are wild birds I'm assuming they will have them.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

amandahardy said:


> Sorry there was one more thing I meant to ask, worms, lice and mites, do they need treating now? What with? As they are wild birds I'm assuming they will have them.


Young birds are not supposed to be given deworming med until they're four months old if there's no emergency. But if you feel like deworming them is necessary if they're showing some symptoms then you can get their fecals tested. Any vet or even docter will do that.

For external parasites you can use injectable/oral ivermectin. Put one drop at the base of their tail feathers,one drop under wing pits and one drop on back of the neck on the skin,if you see any external parasites.
I won't recommend dusting young birds with insecticides like other members do because the fragile raw feathers of young birds can get deformed by insecticide dust.


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## amandahardy (Jul 6, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Young birds are not supposed to be given deworming med until they're four months old if there's no emergency. But if you feel like deworming them is necessary if they're showing some symptoms then you can get their fecals tested. Any vet or even docter will do that.
> 
> For external parasites you can use injectable/oral ivermectin. Put one drop at the base of their tail feathers,one drop under wing pits and one drop on back of the neck on the skin,if you see any external parasites.
> I won't recommend dusting young birds with insecticides like other members do because the fragile raw feathers of young birds can get deformed by insecticide dust.


Thanks for the help Jazz, what ever it was that was troubling him seems to have passed and he has now caught up with his sister/brother in growth. I weighed them the other day and they were both around the 250-260g mark so nice and healthy. Their poo looks great (as far as poo goes). The worms thing was an after thought as I treat my pets with it fairly regularly I wondered if they needed it too. Especially with his tummy problems I though it could be a worm issue.

I found them a place that rehabilitates and release pigeons so if there are any remaining issues with their health they will be addressed by someone more knowledgeable than me. After that (hopefully) back to the wild from whence they came.


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