# Help - Finch in trouble



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I just came upstairs to take care of the cage birds and found my little orange-cheeked waxbill hen fluffed on the floor of the cage, barely able to fly. She is probably eggbound. They've been messing around with their nest lately and I think she's trying to lay a new clutch. (She's laid lots of eggs but never actually incubated them.)

I give them Calcivet in their water and a good quality, vitamin-enriched finch mix plus lots of fresh greens. Have tried to convert them to Harrisons High Potency Superfine pellets, but they will starve rather than eat them. So I don't think they get enough protein, but I can't get them to eat anything but seed. Have tried egg food, etc., but they are very picky.

I put Tina in the hospital cage on heat. I also gave her a drop of Calcivet directly in her beak. Any other ideas? My vet won't be able to help such a tiny bird, I'm sure. She's considerably smaller than a zebra finch, not much bigger than an Anna's hummingbird. I don't even like handling her because she is so tiny and I'm afraid of stressing her more.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They always say moist heat is best for that kind of thing. I never have understood why.

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I just wasted a shameful amount of water running the shower in our bathroom to steam her, too!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you by chance have an incubator?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry your tiny one is having problems. I'd PM littlebird and see if she can help. She is a wealth of info on many different species of birds.

Warm and moist heat would be my suggestion as was already posted as well as the calcium boost which you have given.

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh, I hope Tina will be okay. Poor little one.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Wishing Tina all the best!

Hopefully, Nona will be able to help. 

One can feel so helpless when the birds are so tiny!! 

Sending our STRONGEST HEALING THOUGHTS, LOVE and HUGS!

Shi & Squeaks


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I have great news--Tina is much better! This is a miraculous recovery. 

By the time Steve got home last night she was in bad shape. By the time we finished dinner she was lying down in the hospital cage (a plastic terrarium we set on a heating pad on low), eyes closed, barely breathing. Steve called me upstairs from where I was finishing the dishes to say she was dying. I raced up there and she appeared to be on the way out. He wanted me to hold her because he doesn't think they should pass alone, whereas I prefer to leave them be when they are birds that don't like being handled (and finches _hate_ being handled). But I conceded and held her. 

She didn't die, just kept barely breathing, head down, eyes closed. I handed her back to Steve because I had to go and give Rosie her medication and do a few other things. When I came back upstairs, Steve told me he had breathed on her and she suddenly revived and flew out of his hands! We had both been praying for her this whole time. 

Well, she still didn't look too good, but she was at least up on her feet, eyes open, which was an improvement. We gave her a tiny bit of water via dropper. 

To my relief, Tina was still with us this morning. And then I could see her straining, trying to pass an egg. With great care, I caught her and Steve administered another drop of Calcivet plus a drop of olive oil to her beak. Mind you, this is a beak approximately the size of a safflower seed. 

When I got home from taking my younger son to school this morning Tina had passed her egg! It's larger than usual and soft-shelled. But it was intact, thank God. And thank God for her recovery. I've never seen one that far gone that made it back. She's still disheveled, but she's bouncing around. I put her back in the cage with her hubby, Ike, and she flew to the top perch.

I read my Bible every morning. My devotional verse today was Mark 11:24: "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Sometimes God says "no," but it sure is great when He says "yes"!

Thank you all for your kind words, thoughts and prayers. 

The question is, where do we go from here? I'm afraid of this happening again. I try very hard to make sure the finches get adequate nutrition, but they refuse to switch to Harrison's or any other type of complete pellet. They also reject egg food, protein food, etc. I've tried so many different kinds, but they won't eat anything but seed mix. I give them the best I can, Volkman's enriched with vitamins. I put Calcivet in their water on a daily basis and give them fresh fruit and greens. Any other suggestions? I'm convinced diet is part of the problem. Lack of sunlight might be too, as they are indoors. Their cage is too large for me to easily take it outside. I had hoped the Calcivet would make up for it because it contains Vitamin D as well as calcium, but I'm not sure. 

In the wild these little waxbills would eat insects in addition to grass seeds. That's very hard to provide in captivity. These finches are so tiny that no live insects commercially available would be small enough. I could try to find leaves with aphids on them, I guess.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cathy, I just can't tell you what your post means to me. I worried about Tina so much. Thank God she passed the egg.

I don't know what to advise you about the egg issue beyond maybe putting the finches in a smaller cage for an hour or so each day and letting them have some direct/indirect sun.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I think that holding this little one gave her the ease, comfort and relief she needed. Being alone at these times can be very stressful and scary. I truly believe she was aware of you and Steve and the love that was coming from you two -- just having comforting hands and breath around her provided that extra she needed. 

Perhaps the holding also took some strain off her body so the egg was able to move past whatever it was. That along w/ some expert "doctoring" helped her past this crisis. 

Hope and pray that Tina is on her way to a good recovery.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

And sometimes we think pigeons are difficult!

Well done

Do they eat mealworms, or are these finches too tiny? Do they have hemp in their mix - it is very good protein.

John


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

http://www.finchinfo.com/birds/finches/species/orange_cheeked_waxbill.php


Just a bit of info on these little ones. 


Almost as small as the bronze-winged mannikins that I have. 
http://www.avianweb.com/bronzemannikins.html

very cute, but high stress (on their keepers  ) when something goes out of whack a bit.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Sorry I wasn't on line to respond to your need of help....but you had very good advice. The only thing I would have added was to put a drop of olive oil in her vent as well as one in the mouth. Always give a drop of calcium and moist heat......but do not separate her from her mate as that stresses her too. What she needs to pass the egg is to RELAX her muscles and just concentrate on the laying.....safe..warm..and with her mate....preferable in her own cage if you can cover and warm the space. 

You say you provide them with greens.......hopefully NOT spinach.....it leaches the calcuim......kale, romaine, chickory, dandilions leafs, carrot tops are better.

Do try to provide them with WAX WORMS....they are very soft skinned and can be cut in pieces if you wish. My Weavie would not have lived so long if not for the worms I provide, I'm convinced of that. My societies and my mannikins all take the whole worms....crush the head...run the worm across thier beak..and squish the yummy into their mouths and discard the skin. Weavie swallows the whole worm after he crushes the head. Meal worms have too hard skin for the little guys to digest....even if you cut them in segments. I never feed meal worms.

Also when you cannot get the birds into real sunshine, you should buy a florescent fixture that has a ''hood'' over the bulbs like a tent so you can put the light directly on top of the cage without electricity touching the wire. Buy VITA-LITES bulbs and put perches within 12 inches of the bulbs. Artifical sunlight bulbs are not effective beyond 12 inches and they need to be changed every year even though they still will light.....they are useless for sun substitute. Vita-lite bulbs are very expensive but aren't our birds worth it?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for all the good information, guys. Littlebird, I give them well-washed romaine most of the time. Also apple slices. There aren't many wild weeds at this time of year because it hasn't rained in months and everything is dry. I'm not sure where I would get wax worms. The only insects I've seen for sale around here are mealworms and crickets, neither of which are suitable. I'll look into getting them a VitaLites bulb. 

We wouldn't have separated them but their cage is too large to effectively heat. We tried putting Ike in the hospital cage with her but he went nuts. I had her about directly across from him about six feet away, so they were able to see and hear each other. He kept calling to her and I think that helped. I put her back in with him as soon as she laid the egg.

Tina took a bath this afternoon and seems almost her normal self. I'm attaching pictures of the two of them (that's her on the left) and the offending egg.

-Cathy


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Cathy, I'm so glad Tina is doing better, I just saw this thread today. I also noticed what you said about the shameful amount of water and my first thought was, Well, she must be in California too!  And indeed you are. Isn't that all we hear about these days? I'm afraid to take a shower sometimes, not sure the neighbors won't be reporting! For those of you who don't know, we are on water rationing almost here in CA, not supposed to water lawns, washing machines, and people are literally reporting other people for washing cars. So let's hope we do get this rain tonight lol, I think we need it. Again, I'm very glad to hear Tina is better. Those finches are just adorable.


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Cathy
you can order waxworms on line at www.grubco.com. However the minimum order is too much for a two bird household. If you could possibly talk to the owner of the pet shop near you and see if they will add waxworms to their inventory. Do you have a PETLAND DISCOUNTS store in your city?? That's the stores here in new york we can always rely on to have live food.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I am SO glad to hear that Tina passed her egg and is doing well! I was hoping that Littlebird would come along. I know she has some great advice!

MJ, I am just shocked that we here in the Valley of the Sun haven't been water rationed! One would think that Arizona would be at the forefront for preserving water. Nope...not at all...that I've seen.

Developers are building like mad, fast food places hose out their drive thrus and people are using water as if there is no tomorrow. 

There have been reports of fissures caused by the dropping water table. There are a few panic reports and then one hears nothing more! 

Wonder when the powers that be will wake up?? Will be a little late when one turns on the faucet and there is no water!

AND, voters are supposed to vote on a planned water park in Mesa this November. UNBELIEVEABLE...

At this rate, the rest of the country will move here to get water!

Shi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

My local Petco has waxworms. The worms are kept in a fridge in the reptile section.

Terry


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## jhutto (Sep 17, 2007)

Since she just did this is she susceptible of doing this in the future do to diet or genetics?


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

The cause is usually diet or environment. Yes, she could do this on her very next egg and these tiny kids usually lay a clutch before brooding. That's why the liquid calcium is so imp't. It helps the bound egg as well as start to build her up again, but she still needs better nutrition.......only trouble there is even if you put the world's best in front of her she might still tell you where to stick it. And you must get her some real sunshine so she can utilize what calcium she does get from her diet and supplements. Twenty minutes a day in direct sunshine is sufficient.....That's a slow walk around the block....do everyone good.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Thanks for all the good information, guys. Littlebird, I give them well-washed romaine most of the time. Also apple slices. There aren't many wild weeds at this time of year because it hasn't rained in months and everything is dry. I'm not sure where I would get wax worms. The only insects I've seen for sale around here are mealworms and crickets, neither of which are suitable. I'll look into getting them a VitaLites bulb.
> 
> We wouldn't have separated them but their cage is too large to effectively heat. We tried putting Ike in the hospital cage with her but he went nuts. I had her about directly across from him about six feet away, so they were able to see and hear each other. He kept calling to her and I think that helped. I put her back in with him as soon as she laid the egg.
> 
> ...



Hi Birdmom4ever,



Sadly, 'Romain' has almost no Nutrition or anyb other value in any way whatever...

For fresh Greens, she would need Endives, Kales, Cilantros, Parselys, Chards...no 'Lettuces' as we have come to know them...


Insects in Nature have intestines full of Chlorophyll, which the Birds need in various ways, and get in eating the Insects, including to aid them in a correct assimilation of Calciums/Magnesiums/Boron/Selenium etc, which Calcium et al they would get all they need of in Seeds, incidental Greens and as may be, with no suppliments needed.



As others mentioned also, she needs real, outdoor direct Sunshine now and then also for her Vitamine D concerns...


How many Eggs do these Birds usually lay to a Clutch?


Baths, also, aid the impending Mother in more comfortable laying...cool baths are fine, and the moist underfeathers then remain warm and humid after. 


...does she like to bathe?


Good luck..!



Phil
l v


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## SkyofAngels (Jun 28, 2007)

Have you tried mixing the food in little by little with the seed. I can't imagine that they would really starve themselves, sometimes it just seems that way to us. My dog when I was growng up would not eat dog food, I would come home and my mom would be cooking, "Ya we are having steak tonight" and she would say, "No this is for the dog we are going out for dinner," Great I get grilled cheese and the dog gets filet mignon. Well he ended up with some extra pudge and the vet told us just put the dog food and he will eat it when he is hungry. He went a day then my mom gave in and made food for him again so my father put his foot down and the dog didn't eat for almost three days but I guess he finally got hungry enough and ate the dog food and that was that he ate dog food from that point on. I guess it is a battle of wills.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I was so, so glad to hear she was able to pass the egg. I use calcivet too for my birds, but when my cockatiels are laying I give Neo-Calglucon. My vet prescribed it when my little hen had egg binding problems. Now also use it for my pigeons between eggs if a hen lays a soft shelled or rough shelled egg.

Margaret


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Hmmm...so many replies it's hard to address them all. Terry, I'll ask about wax worms at Petco. If they only sell large numbers perhaps I could feed them to the wild birds in our yard. We don't put out seed anymore because it attracts rats, but it would be lovely to feed insect eaters. We have two Petco stores in our area. 

Phil, I thought Romaine lettuce was actually rather nutritious compared to iceberg. Will have to research that. The birds love it but they are not too keen on kale and other greens. Don't worry, Littlebird--no spinach.

I have tried mixing the pellets in with their seed and they still won't eat them. They eat around them. And they _will _starve if you only give them something they don't like or don't recognize as food. 

Last year we went away for the weekend and my responsible 21-year-old daughter took care of the birds. I had very foolishly switched my lovebird's food to a different brand of pellets right before I left (stupid, stupid mistake). I wasn't clear enough in my instruction that he was supposed to get a little seed _in addition _to the pellets. Well, he wouldn't eat the pellets and my daughter didn't realize what was happening. She called us when we were on our way to home to say she thought he was dying! We got home and he was weak and listless. I saw the untouched pellets, figured out what happened and gave him some seed mix. He perked up but still had to go to the vet because he was so far down. And he is much bigger than our finches. 

According to my finch book, small waxbills can starve in 36 hours. So I'm very, very careful about not trying to force them to eat something they don't like. I just keep trying different things, hoping they'll eventually accept them. There is Harrison's Superfine mixed in with their seed right now. 

They do get some afternoon sun. They are directly across from a window, though not right in front of it. But during the summer months the afternoon sun from the west is too intense so I close the blinds part way. Now that it's milder I can leave them open and let some sun in. But it also has to be warm enough to leave the window open because they are double-paned windows and have a UV-blocking coating. The cage is big, it's upstairs and I can't just take it outside easily. I don't want to handle the finches because it's very stressful for them. Catching them and putting them in a smaller cage so they can go outside would, I suspect, be counter-productive. 

Thanks for all the advice. I'm really working on minimizing the problems here. I will try the special lights and the wax worms and see if that makes a difference.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdmom4ever,



Yahhhh...

The casual summary appreciation, would be to avoid common Lettuce types.


Sadly, none of the Fruits or Vegetables one buys in stores anymore have anywhere hear the Nutrition they did a few generations ago...the Soils, the balances of minerals and elements in the Soils, the farming methods, the forced and heavy handed pestacides and fertalizers and hormones and whatever else, all conspire to reduce the actual Nutritional values of these foods.


While Romaine may be arguably better than Iceburg, it will be a far cry from Cilantros, Kales, Beet Tops, Mustard Greens and so on...and, trying various of these, you may find which they like best.


Spinach, yes, should be avoided or allowed only very occasionally...oweing to I forget what, but Gallic or other Acids which it containes peculiarly too much of for many Species to do well with.


Various of 'mine' here have acquired the habit of flying over to peck overhanging Greens from my sandwhiches, and also to enjoy them otherwise, but of course when I am eating something, it tends to look more inviting then if just sitting there on it's own...Lol...


How many Eggs do these little Finches tend to have to a clutch?


Phil
l v


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I try to disturb them as little as possible, but I have cleaned their nest out several times this year when I didn't see any activity for awhile (other then them sleeping in it) and she had 5 or 6 eggs each time. She didn't incubate them, though. 

I realized (duh!) this afternoon that I could just roll their cage stand closer to the window for part of the afternoon when the sun was coming in. Is that enough?


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

15 to 30 minutes of direct sunshine on their feathers...no glass or plastic between...is enough. If you use the vita-lites in the winter, make sure there is no plastic between the bulbs and the birds and that the bulbs are at least 10 to 12 inches close to them. I'm told one hour of real sunshine is equal to TWELVE hours of vita-lite, so you really need for them to get close. It's odd how they know they need the rays and will sit under the lights for long periods. BTW, it;s nice you are so concerned for them....you're a good Mom.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Birdmom4ever,
> 
> 
> Spinach, yes, should be avoided or allowed only very occasionally...oweing to I forget what, but Gallic or other Acids which it containes peculiarly too much of for many Species to do well with.


 Phil, 

I read somewhere that spinach contains an acid which is calcium depleting.

Margaret


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It really does need to be "real" sunshine and not through a window or skylight. Aside from being able to do that, you do need the special artificial lights.

Terry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

little bird said:


> 15 to 30 minutes of direct sunshine on their feathers...no glass or plastic between...is enough. If you use the vita-lites in the winter, make sure there is no plastic between the bulbs and the birds and that the bulbs are at least 10 to 12 inches close to them. I'm told one hour of real sunshine is equal to TWELVE hours of vita-lite, so you really need for them to get close. It's odd how they know they need the rays and will sit under the lights for long periods. BTW, it;s nice you are so concerned for them....you're a good Mom.


I try! It's not easy considering I have two human children still at home and over 100 other birds. But that's not the finches' fault, of course.

It is real sunlight--I open the window. But I can't do that every day. Not if it's too hot, cold, or breezy. I think the VitaLites may be the answer, especially in winter. 

Tina looks really good today. She bathes almost every day and is eating well, bouncing around and twitching her tail.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I realized (duh!) this afternoon that I could just roll their cage stand closer to the window for part of the afternoon when the sun was coming in. Is that enough?



Hi Birdmom4ever, 


No, it may be pleasant for her certainly, but Vitamine D wise, the Sunshine needs to be "direct" with no Glass intervening...



Phil
l v


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I meant with the window _open_ and the sun coming directly through it. Unfortunately it's not possible to do that every day because it's often breezy from that direction in the afternoon when the sun comes through, or else it's either too hot or too cold.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

*Update*

Tina is doing great and acting as though nothing ever happened. They refused the wax worms but I have been mixing some protein powder in their lightly oiled seed mix so they may be getting a little that way. It's made by Morning Bird especially for finches. They have shown a little interest in their egg food, which is encouraging. 

I ordered a special lamp and Vita-light for them (should be here next week) and I faithfully put Calcivet in their water every day. 

Thanks again for the prayers, good wishes and sound advice. I've never seen a tiny bird that close to death make such a complete recovery before.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS..SENDING ALL THE BEST OF HUGS and SCRITCHES!!

Please keep us updated!! Sounds like you are in for a GREAT adventure!!

Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdmom4ever,


Wow...glad to hear things are better now..!


Good luck still..!


Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wonderful news, Birdmom! I'm so glad Tina is doing so well!

Terry


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Birdmom, 
I'm so happy to hear that Tina has recovered completely. Thank you for the update.

Margaret


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