# Cockbird raising squabs dropped dead



## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Hello,
I came home to a depressing surprise this evening, I have a pair who have a one and a half-ish week old pair of squabs, and I found the cockbird (who was fine and normal this morning) dead on the nest. No outward signs of anything. He does not appear to have been fighting nor attacked, is in good condition, had food and water in his crop, just dead. He was totally fine this morning, not puffed up, droppings are normal for him, he was taking care of the squabs normally. He was roughly 4 years old, a homer pigeon. I am rather devastated, and would like to find out if it was something I did wrong or something I missed, or even just if it was a random thing out of my control.
Another pair of pigeons had been trying to take the nest as nobody was guarding it anymore and would not let the hen near, and I worried they could harm the squabs as well. I took the babies & nest and put it in a small-ish cage and added the hen. One of the squabs had an empty crop so I fed him a small meal of warmed thawed peas so he had enough food for the night. The squeaking drove the hen to start filling up on food although I don't think she's fed them yet, I am hoping she might start feeding them tomorrow, if not I have hand raised squabs before so I think I will be able to hand raise them if necessary. She is brooding them on the nest right now. If she does start feeding them do I still need to supplement hand feeding or do I expect her to feed them enough?
The only thing I can think of that was out of the ordinary was their droppings. The hen did also get a bit quiet sometimes, would puff up and have rest when perching some of the day. But she still flew around a fair bit, eating and drinking fine, alert, helped guard the nest, so I didn't think much of it, those symptoms have completely disappeared now she is in a different cage so I am not sure if it is related to anything. This is not an exact photo but it is the same as they have.








And please note that antibiotics are not available without a prescription in NZ, so any kind of antibiotic medications would require a vet to see her and prescribe them. Which I can do, except with her caring for chicks I am not very sure how. She was wormed fairly recently (when incubating eggs). I heard on one thread that it is from lack of good bacteria, pigeon probiotics are hard to come across here but I do have apple cider vinegar.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can put some apple cider vinegar in her drinking water twice a week. 5 ml acv to 1 litre of water. Make sure you have the natural unfiltered brand.

Always have enough food available, as she will need to raise 2 babies by herself. Monitor their crops esp in the evening.

Can you take a flashlight and check inside her beak and back of the throat for any unusial yellow cheesy growths. Do the same with the babies.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Thankyou so much for all of your help Marina 🙏 
How long do I use the apple cider vinegar for?
I will do that with the flashlight


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

The hen had normal-ish looking droppings this morning but had very yellow urates,
A few other birds in my flock have similar symptoms to her, is it ok to use the ACV for them too?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes you can. Acv must always be part of their diet. It creates a hostile environment for bad bacteria. Keep an eye on the babies. They don't have the same immunity as the mom to some diseases. 

Why don't you order products online just for in case.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Marina B said:


> Yes you can. Acv must always be part of their diet. It creates a hostile environment for bad bacteria. Keep an eye on the babies. They don't have the same immunity as the mom to some diseases.
> 
> Why don't you order products online just for in case.


I have checked one of the babies and can't see anything abnormal about their throat, the second baby and mother were too squirmy for me to see well so I will get a second person to help and check today.
I would order medications online but I don't think you can get them here without a prescription unfortunately. I will be vigilant of the babies.
The ACV in the water was really good for them I think, all the birds had normal healthy droppings today rather than the watery ones they had before. I will certainly keep using it.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Order meds specific for pigeons online. Medistatin for yeast, metronidazole and spartrix for canker, and then a general antibiotic for bacterial infections. These are good to have around when problems develop. Also get probiotics.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

I found canker lesions in the other chicks throat unfortunately, I would have treated them myself but it takes too long for medications to ship from overseas. So we took them in to the vet clinic to get the medication, the vet agreed it was canker and said to keep the ACV in their water daily until it's cleared up, his medicine of choice was ronidazole but we would have to wait for it to ship from overseas, so we're going to use metronidazole, hopefully will be able to pick it up tomorrow morning.
I will try ordering some of those medications you listed from overseas, maybe that is a way I can get them here. Do you recommend the 4 in 1 or 5 in 1 medications?
I found and bought some bird probiotics. There is also a vitamin and mineral supplement I have been using for a while with added hydrolyzed yeast, salmon oil and garlic, does that sound ok?
Is there a way to prevent them getting canker in the future? Does the ACV help with that?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The 4 in 1 or 5 in 1 are no good as this does not have enough of a specific meds for treatment. I believe Spartrix is the best product to use for canker, although it's not available in our country. I use human metronidazole for treating canker. Human meds can be used for pigeons, at least I can buy from a pharmacy in our country.

The acv will definitely keep them healthy. You can give to all your pigeons twice a week and then probiotics the next day.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Marina B said:


> The 4 in 1 or 5 in 1 are no good as this does not have enough of a specific meds for treatment. I believe Spartrix is the best product to use for canker, although it's not available in our country. I use human metronidazole for treating canker. Human meds can be used for pigeons, at least I can buy from a pharmacy in our country.
> 
> The acv will definitely keep them healthy. You can give to all your pigeons twice a week and then probiotics the next day.


I got the meds, directions is 50mg once daily for 5 days, I thought that was the correct adult dosage but I thought common dosage was 30 mg for squeakers?
Should I only be treating the birds that are showing symptoms? This would be all the squeakers (these 2 plus another I have) and probably the mother of these two. I did not receive enough medicine to treat the whole flock, so I assume I am not supposed to?


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Also, with treating the mother, how do I go about that because if I dose the squeakers and then her when she feeds the squeakers will she not give them more of the meds? Or will it not really matter?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The dosage metronidazole is 10 mg metro per 100 gr birdweight once a day for 7 to 10 days. Although one should not underdose. Treat all your sick birds.

Give the babies their meds early morning and let the mom feed them. After she fed them, then you can dose her. Don't let her feed them for a couple of hours after she got dosed Overdosing on metro will result in neurological symptoms, so you can look out for that.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Thanks again Marina for the correct dosages have been treating for 5 days now and seen good improvement and the canker lesions are gone.
The chicks are recently having watery droppings, they have just found out how to drink water themselves and drink quite a lot is that normal? The rest of the birds are also having watery droppings again do you think it should correct it's self in time with the probiotics or something else going on?
I also have ordered some Ronivet-S (Ronidazole powder to put in water) I tried to get Spartix but it was out of stock everywhere. Hoping it gets here should I treat all of the birds that haven't been treated with the metronidazole?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Only treat the sick ones. Put some apple cider vinegar in the drinking water for a couple of days. 5 ml acv to 1 litre of water. Followed up with probiotics. Are you experiencing very warm temp? Then they drink more water.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Will do that, it has been quite warm here yes.
In my one other squab I noticed s/he had a dropping that had yellow (not strong or bright yellow, just off white with a yellow tint), I read somewhere that is a sign of a liver problem that could be caused by overdose of metro, no neurological symptoms. Do you think I should cut back on the dose or discontinue the treatment or is one of the yellowish droppings nothing to be worried about?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How long have you been giving the metro now and what dosage? Yellow droppings can also be a sign of dehydration.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

About 6 days now, s/he was 330 grams when I weighed her so she's been getting roughly 30-35mg once daily. 

I found also the other squabs had their crops full of air recently, I think they have gotten rid of it themselves when I usually check on them a few hours later which I why I have not noticed. They are eating seed themselves already which is I think earlier age than normal, maybe they are swallowing air when they are eating? Is that a problem since they usually get rid of it themselves?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The dosage seems fine. Rather do 10 days as you don't want the canker to return. The squabs with air in the crops: are these the ones you have on metro as well?


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Marina B said:


> The dosage seems fine. Rather do 10 days as you don't want the canker to return. The squabs with air in the crops: are these the ones you have on metro as well?


Will do the 10 days,
Yes the others with air in the crop are on metro as well. These 3 are the only squabs I have at the moment all are on metro


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

They might have a slight yeast infection due to the antibiotics. If the acv in the drinking water does not help for this, you might need to get Nystatin for treatment. I assume you are giving probiotics as well.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

I have been giving them the probiotics once a week after the ACV, since I am giving them the acv daily now does that change how often or if I should give the probiotics?
I am able to get this from the pharmacy, it says it is Nystatin 100,000 I.U. per ml in a sucrose suspension, it is cherry flavoured. Would this work if the acv doesn't?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes, that will help for yeast. Not sure abòut the cherry flavoured Nilstat. Try to get the plain Nystatin/Nilstat.

Dosage will be 30 000 units per 100 gr birdweight twice a day. So if there's 100 000 units per ml, give 0.3 ml per 100 gr birdweight. Also give on empty crop and then wait half an hour before letting them eat and drink.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Don't be alarmed if the urates turn yellow after giving Nystatin, that is normal.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

I think the ACV might have cleared it up, haven't found any more air in the crop. I think I may have been mistaking some of the air with water. They squabs excessively drink when offered water so I have restricted their access to that and let their mother judge how much water they get when she feeds them. That has stopped them having the watery droppings for the most part. I noticed on just a few of their droppings today has a grey mucous layer on parts, they have returned to normal now though.
I will still try get the plain Nystatin.
I am also able to get 'Baycox' 2.5% Toltrazuril liquid, says for the treatment of Coccidiosis, do you think it is worth keeping on hand? The wormer I have at the moment is levisamole, but I am thinking of getting a moxidectin with praziquantel one to cover a wider range of parasites.
I am starting to wonder if I will receive the ronidazole or not, because it is perscription medicine they might stop it at the border, I hope that I am wrong. I read in a few places that Copper sulfate can be used as a canker treatment, I am easily able to get that. If I cannot get the ronidazole would you recommend having copper sulfate for the treatment of canker?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm not sure about the copper sulfate. Have you tried searching on this forum for threads reg this? Apparently moxidectin is a good dewormer to use, but one should not deworm a pigeon when younger than 2 months. So just keep this in mind. This goes for treatment of coccidiosis as well.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

Marina B said:


> I'm not sure about the copper sulfate. Have you tried searching on this forum for threads reg this? Apparently moxidectin is a good dewormer to use, but one should not deworm a pigeon when younger than 2 months. So just keep this in mind. This goes for treatment of coccidiosis as well.


Thanks for the information.
I am not going to use the copper sulfate, I found one thread on here that suggested possible issues with toxicity. Might be able to get a prescription from vet to get the ronidazole across the border since they know I have a flock of pigeons. 
The mother stopped feeding them and was really causing more issues than it was worth keeping her in there, so I took her out and put her back in the aviary with my other birds. The chicks are eating defrosted green peas, one feeds himself the other I am still handfeeding, they are doing well. The mother was accepted back into the flock fine, except she is a little quiet. She is not puffed up or lethargic, but she is quiet and sleeping quite a lot. She is also swallowing a bit more than normal. Her droppings are small and a bit watery. I looked down her throat again and I can't see anything that isn't normal. She completed her 10 days of metro 2 days ago. Do you think she has something wrong with her? Or maybe just tired or feeling off from the medicine, maybe grieving her mate? She has not yet had probiotics after the metro, she will get probiotics the day after tomorrow.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Start giving her probiotics and acv in the drinking water. One should actually give probiotics during antibiotic treatment.

Try to get the ronidazole. Some canker strains are resistant to metro, so it's always good to have a second choice for treating canker.


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## spoiledpetpigeonowner (Aug 16, 2021)

I ran out of peas one time and I thought it would be ok to give the squeakers dry wheat and some water for one feed... bad idea... I do not think I gave them enough water, or maybe it was that they just didn't digest the wheat well or something, I don't know, but they still have wheat in their crops from 24 hours ago... 
The bird that drank less his crop was rock hard and only had wheat in it, the other bird still had a lot of wheat but was also eating some defrosted peas and had digested some of the wheat. Or he could have been the one that vomited it up I suppose, one of them vomited some wheat.
I gave both a drink of ACV water, I made them cold because I did not warm it but they are ok now.. only giving them warm ACV water now. They were very thirsty and absorbed a lot of the water, pooped some out too.. I know one is pooping haven't seen the other one go, I think? the ACV water helped them, I think they have slightly less wheat in their crops and they are atleast not rock hard now. They are still being offered defrosted peas which they eat on their own.
Is what I am doing ok? Or any other advice?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

As long as they are producing droppings, food is getting digested. If not, only offer them water with acv for a day until the crops are completely empty. Lukewarm diluted human baby applesauce also helps for impacted crops. Feed small amounts during the day and do some gently massages afterwards.


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