# Young Bird sickness



## pigifan

I had one bird die from what must have been young bird sickness.
Now her brother must have it.
From what I have read there is no cure as it is probably a viral (adenovirus or circovirus) disease. The viruses supress the young bird's (ie. not fully developed) immune system. Various bacterial infections (eg E. coli) kill the bird with the immunosupressed system.
The following site explains the disease with pictures http://www.albertaclassic.net/E.coli/sickness.php,
I read that doxycycline ''appears'' to work but they eventually succumb.
This bird is not yet in the stage where the eyes are closed to conserve water.

Do you think I should give doxycycline, do you have any other suggestions ?
I am ordering adenosan too.
The bird is 4 months old. He is isolated next to a heat source. He still flies and eats a small amount of seeds although they probably cannot pass to the intestine. The crop is full and it has lost a lot of weight.


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## Lovebirds

Pigifan........I'm don't usually give advice on meds.......I leave that to those who are "in the know".........but........I have to tell you that I went through the exact same thing back in 2002. To make a long story short, I put my birds on Amoxicillin for 7 days. No birds died and I had a very good YB race season considering how sick my birds had been AND it was our first year racing. 
At that time, I saw the same web site/info that you linked to. All the symptoms were there. I noticed it on a Friday afternoon and was lucky enough to have a fellow flyer that had the Amoxicillin. I keep the stuff on hand now ALL the time. It's all I've ever used. 
That's my two cents.


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## pigifan

Thank you for your reply Lovebirds.

What is the dose - 10 mg ?
Did you medicate each bird individually or do you put it in drinking water ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

I also am not one to give advice on medications. But, this I do know, antibiotics will have no affect on a viral infection. That is a known medical fact. So either the virus runs it's course, or there was a misdiagnosis in the first place.


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## Pidgey

If memory serves, the high end dose for Amoxicillin is 100 milligrams of actual medicine per kilogram of bird, orally, twice daily. 

Pidgey


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## Feefo

I am so sorry, G. 

This is from Nooti's drug chart:

AMOXYCILLIN AND CLAVULANIC ACID (Synulox, Clavamox)

Dose - up to 50 mgs per kilo BID (twice daily) if injection or up to 125mgs per kilo TID (three times daily) orally- up to 3 weeks. Dose and dosing interval determined by infection site, severity and organism involved.

Used to treat severe or deep puncture wounds, and helps greatly in preventing the spread of necrotic tissue. Is also effective against gut E.coli.
It is not recommended that this drug be given orally in the case of critically ill patients as absorption from the GI tract is unreliable, however many people do not have access or knowledge to give by injection so orally is the only option and better than nothing.

Cynthia


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## Lovebirds

pigifan said:


> Thank you for your reply Lovebirds.
> 
> What is the dose - 10 mg ?
> Did you medicate each bird individually or do you put it in drinking water ?


I put in the drinking water.


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## pigifan

I am giving amoxycillin and the bird looks a bit more lively and he seems to eat more. He is still very thin though.
Do you think I should also give Nystatin in case the killing of bacteria allows a fungal infection ?

Sometimes his breathing gets noisy as if there was some obstruction in the throat. He doesn't have (visible) canker and I gave him a spartrix tablet 2 days ago. His sister did not have canker.


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## TheSnipes

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I also am not one to give advice on medications. But, this I do know, antibiotics will have no affect on a viral infection. That is a known medical fact. So either the virus runs it's course, or there was a misdiagnosis in the first place.


It is not for treating the viral infection but for the secondary, opportunistic infections which follow, which is what the original post stated and is described in the linked info. The secondary infections are what kill the birds. Antibiotic therapy can be effective, therefore...wings and fingers X'd for your bird


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## Feefo

> Sometimes his breathing gets noisy as if there was some obstruction in the throat


When did this start? Does it start and stop suddenly? Does it start later in the day?

One of my rescues developed that problem as a secondary infection to PMV, the vet said it was Mycoplasmosis. The most effective treatment was Tylan combined with Doxy.

Cynthia


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## pigifan

I noticed the sound yesterday but since he only "coughs" for a few seconds he may have been doing it for a while and I hadn't noticed.
He was drinking water so maybe liquids irritate the throat. But today he did it as he was sitting. It was as if he had an asthma attack.


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## pigifan

*update*

The pigeon is doing better.
Following Cynthia's recommendation I gave doxycycline (in addition to amoxicillin). I did not have any Tylan.
Although he was coughing a lot - especially during the night (I have him in my bedroom) the cough has now subsided.
He is very lively, he flies quite a bit. He has also put on some weight - the keel bone does not protrude as much.
I think he may survive. I hope it isn't that he just ''appears'' to do better as the site says.
He is very anxious to get out to find his friends.


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## Gille

*Young Bird Sickness*

Young bird sickness. I know this is an older post but it still shows up in google under, "young bird sickness". I figured it might save folks a few loved birds to know what I was fortunate enough to learn before any were lost. I promise it works! It's cheep and it takes less than two days which is far better than most meds and much easier on the birds. And it has zero side effects! 
I found out about it a few years back when we had a sick Roller pigeon. He far too beautiful to allow too waist away but we could not afford a vet or meds. So I searched the net and was shocked to read about cinnamon on a ladies blog about her birds. We tried it and he fully recovered within 24 hours. By 48 he was so rambunctious he made the rest look like they needed some too...lol Lethargy? Sleepy, slow moving is one of the effects of young bird sickness. So I watered down the cinamon and added it to all of their water for 48 hours and they all came right back to normal. In my case I think they actually had a cold. What the cinamon does is warm them up and speed up their systems just enough so they can get over the effects of the virus. Anyways the lady claimed it worked for young bird sickness and i have not lost a single bird to illness thanks to her. Once their system has returned to normal adding greens seems to help keep them that way. If their gutt gets overly acidic or too neutral they get the runs. The chlorophil keeps their gutt just right and a healty gutt allows them to keep saminilla and other such things in check. They always have it with them but they are healty and so their immune systems can keep it it check. Think of cinamon as a temporary immune booster.
I have since learned that Cinnamon is a powerful anti-microbial agent that can kill E. coli and salmonella.
How Much - "One spoon of Cinnamon mixed with 1/2 a pint of boiling hot water add the tea, not the bown gunk on the bottom, to water fountain, Birds should be on the mend within 24 hrs"
I made a batch using the same directions and added it to our 2 gallon jug which i use to water all the lofts for the next 2 days. Within 48 hours there was no longer anything wrong in any of the lofts. I reciently spoke with a veteran breeder and he explained young birds just starting the first molt no longer have the immunities given them by their parents. The amunities use to be in a gland. The gland that use to cause them to squeek which has shrunk by the time they molt. It use to help protect them but now without the immunities a virus ( coc- cidiosis ) gets into the gland and they get young bird sickness. Because of their weakened condition (due to the molt) the birds system gets over taxed. E. coli and salmonella build up. The birds immune system can defeat the coc- cidiosis but not during the molt with the presence of e. coli and salmonella. The tea kills off the e. coli and salmonella allowing the bird to easily overcome the coc- cidiosis which is naturally present in all pigeons.
WEATHER -This is molting time and a little cinnamon tea can save your birds and it is cheap. E. coli and salmonella also flourish during damp weather. So if it rains for two days in a row I've found it best to give the tea. If I do catch it than the birds seem full of life where as if I didn't catch it there are always a few who look slightly under the weather. I have noticed this is no different than with our kids. Each fall the first cold snap hits and within a week cold and worse is hitting them one after the other. While your at it make a cinnamon tea for yourself and sweeten it with honey. Got kids? Make lots!


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## spirit wings

Im going out to get more cinnamon, I use it alot on my applesauce...thanks that was very interesting and Im sure I will try it. esp for young birds....


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## Skyeking

I'm sure it works, as it works well for humans. The cinnamon/honey is one of the oldest remedies from biblical times.

Thanks for sharing, Gille.


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## TAWhatley

*Amoxicillin Dosage*

Just want to be sure we are all on the same page. The portion of the drug chart that Feefo posted is for the combination drug, amoxicillin with clavulanate. The dosage for straight amoxicillin for birds appears to be 150-200 mg per kg twice daily.

http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#a

a slightly different dose: http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm

and another: 
http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html

and a wide range here: http://www.ivis.org/advances/harrison/chap9a/chapter.asp?la=1#A .. for this one you probably have to be registered with IVIS to view it.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Gille said:


> Young bird sickness. I know this is an older post but it still shows up in google under, "young bird sickness". I figured it might save folks a few loved birds to know what I was fortunate enough to learn before any were lost. I promise it works! It's cheep and it takes less than two days which is far better than most meds and much easier on the birds. And it has zero side effects!
> I found out about it a few years back when we had a sick Roller pigeon. He far too beautiful to allow too waist away but *we could not afford a vet* or meds. So I searched the net and was shocked to read about cinnamon on a ladies blog about her birds. We tried it and he* fully recovered within 24 hours.*



I am not expert on YB sickness, or any other pigeon sickness for that matter. I figure if one of my pigeons gets sick, then I must have failed somewhere along the line in my management. But, from my limited knowledge on the subject, I would question how you arrived at the diagnosis of this so called "YB sickness" ? What tests were preformed ? Coccidiosis, Adeno-coli syndrome, Chlamydia, Salmonella, E.coli, Herpes virus, thrush, hair worm infection, internal canker, Aspergillus and many other diseases can all cause similar symptoms.

A better description for "YB sickness" would be Pigeon Circo Virus Disease. The majority of pigeons which develop symptoms will die. Those that survive, it will take months to clear their system. No substance such as cinnamon will "cure" a bird of YB sickness in a 24 hour period. Your roller pigeon was misdiagnosed.


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## Gille

*how the young bird sickness was arrived at*

I'm no expert either, but I'm not against trying something simple and admitting when it does work. It sure was not a fluke as it's worked often since. Young bird sickness as explained to me but two vetern breeders is coc- cidiosis. They told me the symptoms I described would most likley be coc- cidiosis. Together they have over 100 years of experience with pigeons so I listened and then searched the internet for a way to help the birds. I found cinnamon tea on a ladies blog which she'd been told about by an older breeder. The cinnamon tea does not actually cure coc- cidiosis. Rather it destroys the secondary bacterial infections of e. coli and salmonella allowing the birds own imune system to concentrate on the coc- cidiosis which once it is freed to do so is more than able to build up anti-bodies to the coc- cidiosis thus saving the bird. I wish I'd checked back to this post months ago. To come back and find that you've left readers with, 
(Quote)"The majority of pigeons which develop symptoms will die. Those that survive, it will take months to clear their system."
is exactly where i was left by over 100 years of the experience of others. I'm sure glad I didn't give up. Not all sicknesses can be overcome so easily but during the hard rains and fall molts my own experience has more than proven to me that a simple remedy of cinnamon tea does indeed keep the birds bacteria levels down and thus aviod not only death but the months it would take for the birds to bounce back.


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## Msfreebird

Gille said:


> I'm no expert either, but I'm not against trying something simple and admitting when it does work. It sure was not a fluke as it's worked often since. Young bird sickness as explained to me but two vetern breeders is coc- cidiosis. They told me the symptoms I described would most likley be coc- cidiosis. Together they have over 100 years of experience with pigeons so I listened and then searched the internet for a way to help the birds. I found cinnamon tea on a ladies blog which she'd been told about by an older breeder. The cinnamon tea does not actually cure coc- cidiosis. Rather it destroys the secondary bacterial infections of e. coli and salmonella allowing the birds own imune system to concentrate on the coc- cidiosis which once it is freed to do so is more than able to build up anti-bodies to the coc- cidiosis thus saving the bird. I wish I'd checked back to this post months ago. To come back and find that you've left readers with,
> (Quote)"The majority of pigeons which develop symptoms will die. Those that survive, it will take months to clear their system."
> is exactly where i was left by over 100 years of the experience of others. I'm sure glad I didn't give up. Not all sicknesses can be overcome so easily but during the hard rains and fall molts my own experience has more than proven to me that a simple remedy of cinnamon tea does indeed keep the birds bacteria levels down and thus aviod not only death but the months it would take for the birds to bounce back.


This is interesting. I know cinnamon and tea are used to 'treat' different things, so I makes sense that cinnamon tea would have some kind of effect. I use alot of spices and herbs for myself........menopause is a killer! LOL But they DO help 
How do you give the birds cinnamon tea? Do you mix it in their water like ACV?


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Gille said:


> I'm no expert either, but I'm not against trying something simple and admitting when it does work. It sure was not a fluke as it's worked often since. Young bird sickness as explained to me but two vetern breeders is coc- cidiosis. They told me the symptoms I described would most likley be coc- cidiosis. Together they have over 100 years of experience with pigeons so I listened and then searched the internet for a way to help the birds. I found cinnamon tea on a ladies blog which she'd been told about by an older breeder. The cinnamon tea does not actually cure coc- cidiosis. Rather it destroys the secondary bacterial infections of e. coli and salmonella allowing the birds own imune system to concentrate on the coc- cidiosis which once it is freed to do so is more than able to build up anti-bodies to the coc- cidiosis thus saving the bird. I wish I'd checked back to this post months ago. To come back and find that you've left readers with,
> (Quote)"The majority of pigeons which develop symptoms will die. Those that survive, it will take months to clear their system."
> is exactly where i was left by over 100 years of the experience of others. I'm sure glad I didn't give up. Not all sicknesses can be overcome so easily but during the hard rains and fall molts my own experience has more than proven to me that a simple remedy of cinnamon tea does indeed keep the birds bacteria levels down and thus aviod not only death but the months it would take for the birds to bounce back.


My issue is with the term "Young Bird Sickness" that was used to describe what was wrong with your birds. Those two veteran breeders may have a hundred years of pigeon keeping experience, but I was basing my information on the writings of Dr. Colin Walker. I am interested in sharing the views of those who have graduated from medical school, and have years of experience with avian medicine. I think it is important to understand the dangers of misdiagnosis and relying on so called home remedies. 


http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/



*“Young Bird Disease”*
What is it and what to do about it?
By *Dr. Colin Walker B.Sc. B.V.Sc. M.A.C.V.S* (avian health)

*The term ‘Young Bird Disease’ refers to a condition where young pigeons, usually in the first few weeks after weaning become quiet, fluffed, lose weight, develop a green mucoid diarrhoea and die. The cause is a virus called Circo virus.*


The term ‘Young Bird Disease’ is in my mind a poor one and one that I think should be abandoned. *The problem is that it groups a whole lot of diseases that cause similar symptoms into a single category*. As the way these diseases are caught, transmitted and indeed treated are different they need to be differentiated. Fanciers run the risk of seeing any young pigeon with these symptoms and simply putting them down to ‘Young Bird Disease’ when in fact all he is acknowledging is that the young pigeon is sick with wasting and diarrhoea. *Coccidiosis*, Adeno-coli syndrome, Chlamydia, Salmonella, E.coli, Herpes virus, thrush, hair worm infection, internal canker, Aspergillus and many other diseases can all cause similar symptoms. A much better term which actually states the true nature of the infection would be Pigeon Circo Virus Disease, *so that instead of a fancier saying his pigeon had ‘Young Bird Disease’, the fancier would say, after an accurate diagnosis that his pigeons had Pigeon Circo Virus Disease.*


Circo virus is an infectious transmittable virus that spreads from one bird to another. The virus is shed in droppings, tears, saliva and possibly also feather debris.

Once in the loft it can be assumed that every pigeon will be exposed to the virus and that the vast majority will actually become infected. Typically however only about 5% actually show symptoms, while the other 95% although infected with the virus do not develop clinical symptoms i.e. do not become sick. If tested at this time, they will return a positive result and are infected, but look completely normal sitting on the perch.



Birds that do become sick develop the typical symptoms of weight loss, lethargy, diarrhoea and some will develop yellow scum in the mouth. These birds almost invariably die. The ones that do not become sick after a period of time clear the virus from their system. We do not currently know how long this takes but it is thought that the majority will clear the virus from their system in about 4 to 6 months. There is the possibility however, that some birds will fail to clear the virus and remain as persistent carriers.



The significance of Circo virus infection is that while the virus is active in the bird it interferes with the functioning of the immune system. Specifically it targets a particular type of white blood cell called the T lymphocyte. This means that the pigeons ability to resist other infections is compromised while the virus is active. For this reason in some parts of the world Pigeon Circo Virus is called pigeon AIDS. 



Often what alerts us to a Circo virus infection is an increased incidence of these secondary diseases. If your birds are experiencing a higher level of canker or eye colds than normal or if the problem quickly comes back after treatment it may be that Circo virus is the underlying cause. When disease proves difficult to control or behaves in an unpredictable manner it’s always worthwhile asking your vet to check for a concurrent Circo virus infection. 



Two Waves of Loss

Typically when Circo virus gets into a loft there are two waves of loss. The first of these occurs when the virus first enters and works its way through the loft. As mentioned earlier, about 5% of the birds will be lost. As the weeks role by after the last death it is easy for the fancier, who has not been to a vet, to think that the problem is now past. In fact all of the surviving birds in his loft, which may look completely normal are now infected with the virus and until they throw the virus off in a couple of months, have an impaired immune system and increased vulnerability to secondary disease. Typically these secondary diseases are wet canker and Chlamydia (respiratory infection) although they can be any disease. Pigeons rely on exposure to a whole range of potential disease causing organisms during growth including these two to develop a good natural immunity. If Circo virus is active this immunity comes, but takes much longer. This is where the second wave of loss occurs. Fanciers who fail to identify and manage these problems tend to loose a lot of pigeons tossing and in the early races. Its not that the pigeons are not any good, its just that too much is being asked of them. If they were ‘nursed’ along until a bit older and any secondary diseases monitored and treated as required many of these lost young birds would go on a make good race birds.



How Does the Disease Get Into the Loft?

Often the virus enters with a young bird deliberately entered from another loft where Circo virus is active. Remember that 95% of young birds in an infected loft do not show any symptoms, and so this introduced youngster does not have to look sick or in fact ever get sick. It will however shed the virus and infect other birds for several months until it, like the majority of birds, clears the virus from its system. 



How is the Disease Diagnosed?

It is very easy. The disease can be diagnosed from a single drop of blood. In Australia test kits are mailed to fanciers. All the fancier does is prick the birds toe, just above the claw. When a drop of blood oozes onto the skin it is wiped off with a thin strip of supplied blotting-type paper and placed into a small cliplock plastic test tube. This is then mailed to the vet for testing. Once collected the sample is good for weeks, and so there is no problem if it takes a couple of days for the sample to reach its destination. The test is called a PCR and checks for Circo virus DNA in the birds’ blood. It is very accurate and in Australia costs the equivalent of 25 pounds or US$50. Of interest, Chlamydia infection can also be checked from the same sample. 

The disease can also be diagnosed through microscopic examination of tissues collected during an autopsy. Here, the tissues are stained so that the virus can actually be seen. In other birds including parrots a HI/HA blood test is also available that tests for viral protein and also the amount of immunity already formed by that bird. 



*What to do if Your Birds have ‘Young Bird Disease’ i.e. Circo virus infection?*
The first thing to do is accurately establish the diagnosis. This means contacting the vet. If you have several young birds become sick, don’t assume a diagnosis. The problem may be Circo virus or it may be one of the other problems mentioned earlier. Don’t rely on the old guy down at the club or your neighbour who also races pigeons. They don’t have the diagnostic testing available and this simply wastes time. Similarly don’t go to the local dog and cat vet. If he doesn’t do a lot of bird work, he can’t be expected to know and it is therefore unfair to be critical of him. Go to a qualified avian vet or a vet with a lot of bird experience. It’s worth mentioning here that avian birds can be thin on the ground, but you don’t have to be near one. Phone to have a test kit mailed out to you or organize to send a live bird to them via courier. 50% of the thousands of fanciers who use my clinic as their veterinary provider live more that 50 miles from the clinic.



Do bear in mind that antibiotics kill bacteria but not viruses. There is no medication that can be routinely prescribed that directly kills viruses.......see : http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/ for balance of article.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Gille said:


> ...........I'm no expert either, but I'm not against trying something simple and admitting when it does work. It sure was not a fluke as it's worked often since. Young bird sickness as explained to me but two vetern breeders is coc- cidiosis. They told me the symptoms I described would most likley be coc- cidiosis.......


 If your birds were suffering from Coccidiosis, here is what Dr. Walker has to say on the subject.

See complete article at : http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/


Coccidia are fascinating organisms. They can infect not only pigeons, and in fact all birds, but also dogs, cats, sheep, pigs, cows and a range of other animals. They are, however, very species-specific so that it is only pigeon Coccidia that can infect pigeons and, for example, only sparrow Coccidia that infect sparrows. There are however, several types that can infect each animal. The most common Coccidia type in pigeons is called Eimeria spp. 

Animals become infected by swallowing the organism's eggs. All Coccidia once swallowed replicate in the cells of the host, in the process causing extensive damage. In pigeons, this occurs in the lining of the bowel. After multiplying here, the newly produced eggs are passed in the droppings. When initially passed, the eggs (oocysts) are thin-shelled and contain a spherical body, which looks granular, called a sporoblast. The sporoblast is an amorphous blob of protoplasm. Once in the environment, the sporoblast within the bigger egg develops into several smaller eggs called sporocysts (there are four in Eimeria), which in turn each contain a number of structures called sporozoites (there are two in Eimeria). Once this has happened, the egg is said to be sporolated. It is not until this has happened that the egg is infective if swallowed. This process usually takes 4 - 5 days but depends on temperature and humidity. Once an infective (i.e. sporolated) egg is swallowed, the sporozoites hop out and burrow into the wall of the bowel. They at first multiply asexually in the bowel cells but then develop into the equivalent of male and female gametes, which then 'mate' to produce further eggs (oocysts), which rupture back through the bowel lining before being passed in the dropping, thus completing the life cycle.

The significance of Coccidia for us as pigeon racers is that as the Coccidia multiplies in the bowel lining, it damages it, interfering with it doing its job of digestion properly. This is complicated by the fact that each time an egg ruptures back into the bowel from the lining, it causes a microscopic 'pin prick', allowing the bird's blood, electrolytes and protein to be lost.

This weakens the birds and interferes with the absorption of vital nutrients. Severely affected birds develop greenish diarrhoea, are lethargic, thirsty and lose weight. Race birds with even the slightest infection are not able to give of their best.

In most lofts, a low level of infection is present and out of the racing season is regarded as normal, serving to maintain the flock's level of immunity. In two situations, the organism can increase in number and cause clinical problems:

1. As a primary disease, where there are flaws in loft management or design that lead to high exposure to the organism - The loft must be clean and dry. A build-up in the loft is prevented by regular cleaning with particular attention to the drinkers and hoppers. There is no place for wetness in a healthy loft; it not only enables the Coccidia egg to become infective more quickly, but promotes bacterial infection.

2. As a secondary disease, where other factors weaken the bird, enabling the Coccidia to increase in number and cause clinical disease - Such factors may be other concurrent disease, such as worms, or alternatively overcrowding, excessive tossing, poor nutrition, etc.

Treatment

Coccidia should always be suspected where loose droppings appear, particularly in young birds or following wet periods or heavy training. Diagnosis is through faecal examination under a microscope. The best drug to use is Toltrazuril Coccidiocide Solution, which acts entirely within the bowel. It does not interfere with race form and can therefore be safely used during racing. It can also be used safely during breeding and moulting. The dose is 1 ml per 2 litres of water for 2 - 3 days. Avoid medicating if you believe your birds do not have coccidiosis.

Monitoring of coccidial counts by faecal examination (I suggest every 4 weeks) through the race season is a good indicator of the team's form. Birds with elevated counts will benefit from a course of Toltrazuril Coccidiocide Solution. In faecal samples from perfectly fit birds, no coccidial eggs are seen.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************

This does not mean that the cinnamon tea that you administered, did not have some positive effect. I am simply suggesting that cinnamon tea most likely would have no benifit when treating the virus called Circo virus, aka Young Bird Disease or Young Bird Sickness.


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## Msfreebird

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> *My issue is with the term "Young Bird Sickness" that was used to describe what was wrong with your birds.* Those two veteran breeders may have a hundred years of pigeon keeping experience, but I was basing my information on the writings of Dr. Colin Walker. I am interested in sharing the views of those who have graduated from medical school, and have years of experience with avian medicine. I think it is important to understand the dangers of misdiagnosis and relying on so called home remedies.


I agree with you on this. But my interpretation of what Gille is saying is that the 2 veteran keepers agree that it was coccidia - not 'Young Bird Sickness'......correct me if I'm wrong 
One thing I can understand though is......When I first started keeping pigeons 16 years ago, I knew nothing. And there are no avian vets close to me. so I had to rely on my own research when I had a sick bird at first. That term 'young bird sickness', and its symptoms are very deceiving to the inexperienced fancier. I thought ALL my birds had it!!!! When in fact it was usually coccidia or salmonella. 
Just to clarify.....I don't rely on 'home remedies' (ie. ACV, carrot juice, etc) to 'treat'. But if it is something they can benefit from to boost or help their immune system- I'm all for it


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Msfreebird said:


> I agree with you on this. But my interpretation of what Gille is saying is that the 2 veteran keepers agree that it was coccidia - not 'Young Bird Sickness'......correct me if I'm wrong
> One thing I can understand though is......When I first started keeping pigeons 16 years ago, I knew nothing. And there are no avian vets close to me. so I had to rely on my own research when I had a sick bird at first. That term 'young bird sickness', and its symptoms are very deceiving to the inexperienced fancier. I thought ALL my birds had it!!!! When in fact it was usually coccidia or salmonella.
> Just to clarify.....I don't rely on 'home remedies' (ie. ACV, carrot juice, etc) to 'treat'. But if it is something they can benefit from to boost or help their immune system- I'm all for it




Uh....well....maybe you are correct. I just got so into being on my soap box, I sort of maybe misread what was written. Hope the links are helpful for those who have not seen it.


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## Msfreebird

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Uh....well....maybe you are correct. I just got so into being on my soap box, I sort of maybe misread what was written. Hope the links are helpful for those who have not seen it.


The links are very helpful.....always  I just wish I saw them 16 years ago!!


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## Gille

I quote myself -


> I reciently spoke with a veteran breeder and he explained young birds just starting the first molt no longer have the immunities given them by their parents. The amunities use to be in a gland. The gland that use to cause them to squeek which has shrunk by the time they molt. It use to help protect them but now without the immunities a virus ( coc- cidiosis ) gets into the gland and they get *young bird sickness*. Because of their weakened condition (due to the molt) the birds system gets over taxed. E. coli and salmonella build up. The birds immune system can defeat the coc- cidiosis but not during the molt with the presence of e. coli and salmonella. The tea kills off the e. coli and salmonella allowing the bird to easily overcome the coc- cidiosis which is naturally present in all pigeons.


I did actually say YB sickness. It is an over used term as you say. My whole point was simply to help folks know cinnamon kills "e. coli and salmonella " which are secondadry issues which are common to pigeons when their immune systems are hit by most viruses.
I'm glad this revisiting this topic brought on more discussion. 
*My Point*
The benifit - The positive effect was that the cinnamon tea destroyed the e. coli and salmonella allowing the birds natural imunities to get a handle on the Circo virus, and to share that was my point.
Today we try to stay clear of the over use of meds. A vet who has not come across the benifits of cinnamon on bacteria is missing a very simple tool.
Constituents of cinnamon inhibit bacterial acetyl CoA carboxylase
http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20379951
Cinnamon bark oil, a potent fungitoxicant against fungi causing respiratory tract mycoses.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8834832

*CINNAMON has Some Anti-Viral Properties*
One researcher found, 


> "cinnamon extract was able to quickly and effectively immunize chicken embryos from the Newcastle disease virus - one which costs the poultry industry in the US millions of dollars a year.
> 
> Further studies on Avian Flu H9, Sendai virus, the HIV virus, and Herpes Simplex 1 also achieved positive results. Not only was the extract able to neutralize the viruses, it also showed for selected viruses that it has the potential to immunize against them as well."


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/77703.php

Years ago I read a simple blog about cinnamon and pigeons. Today I surf the net and find cinnamon has proven itself useful for even more. The oils in the tea are good for us and good for our birds but as with everything it has it's time and it's place and it is _*"not a cure all"*_ ,though it does works very well on e. coli and salmonella.


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## cwebster

Thank you for the info about coccidia and circo.


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