# Helping a Picky Eater



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

I read with great interest a previous post in this forum, about using caution when switching birds to pellets -- making sure the birds are actually eating them and not going hungry.

Well, since we've had Chauncey, we've noticed the flinging behavior -- chucking stuff out of his dish. We realized he was digging for his favorite bits in the food, but didn't know precisely what he was eating and in what quantities.

Today, I decided to give him an "appetizer" a few hours before dinner. I counted out 5 items of each seed/grain. I thought that way I could see what he's choosing from the smorgasbord.

He flew into the cage and of the things I laid out (all of the items in his pigeon mixes) he ate only the millet! He came back 20 minutes later and didn't touch the rest. I figured he would eat the millet but didn't think he'd disregard the rest.

I use a "pigeon popcorn" mix (with peas, popcorn, groats, milo and safflower) and blend that with the dove mix which has the millet and a few other small seeds. I've also introduced greens but he shows no interest. He doesn't like peanuts, either.

Looking back over the past couple of weeks, it does seem he was favoring the millet and only once in a while touching the sunflower seeds or popcorn. An occasional dried pea.

He disregards his Harrison's pellets ("fine" variety) completely -- even if he's famished, he just won't touch them.

So, what's our next step for helping him get a more balanced diet? If he likes millet, what else might he enjoy? Smaller rice kernels? Any other kind of small seed or grain?

Next to Harrison's, anyone have favorites among the bird feeds/pellets?

Thanks for any advice. Want to make sure Chauncey is getting his nutrition. And feeling a bit neglectful for not noticing sooner how much he was favoring one grain.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can try defrosted corn and peas and some minced carrots. You might try some whole grain bread...chopped unsalted peanuts...sprouts...green leaf lettuce.. I would pop the peas and corn them in his mouth the very first time.
I know some on here love feeding the pellets but I don't like them. ...kind of like if we were given only Cherios to eat forever. Ick!


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks so much, Charis.

I've seen many mentions here of defrosted peas and corn. So -- just raw corn and peas -- defrosted? No cooking?

I'll try the whole grain bread, thanks!

At a recent bird care class we took, the parrot expert talked about feeding her parrots cooked grains like quinoa and couscous -- as special treats. Does that also apply to pigeons?

As far as other things we've tried . .. he doesn't respond at all to finely-shredded carrots, chard, green or red leaf lettuce. I'll try spinach next. Doesn't care for raw, chopped peanuts (unsalted). 

I was adding Harrison's (as part of his diet, not his whole diet) to make sure he had a more balanced diet. But he hasn't touched one pellet. Is it even worth trying another brand or consistency?

I imagine grain-based poultry mashes or starters are NOT good for pigeons?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

valeri said:


> Thanks so much, Charis.
> 
> I've seen many mentions here of defrosted peas and corn. So -- just raw corn and peas -- defrosted? No cooking?
> 
> ...


Some of these Pigeons are as picky as kids. I remember when my son was small we were hard pressed to get him top eat anything other than mac and cheese. Made me crazy but he turned out ok and before I knew it, he was eating more than that. It's the same way with Pigeons. Yours will start eating things other than Millet if you keep introducing those things to him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree. All my pigeons have their preferences. They like certain seeds, and will go for them first. I had more seed on the loft floor, that I had to sweep up and throw away every night. It made me crazy to waste so much. I tried all different feeders, til I finally found one that they can't scatter the seed out of. I LOVE IT!!! Now, I put the seed out in the am, and sometimes I add more later in the day to the seed that they have not eaten. But, I figured if they got hungry enough, they would eventually eat the other seeds. And they do! I will not keep trying different foods until they love every bite. You think he won't eat it even if he is hungry, but believe me, if he is really hungry, he will. That is the only way to get him to try the different seeds. Once he tries them, and gets used to them, he will like them. Trust me. When I have younguns, they have a favorite seed. Eventually, they move on to another favorite. But if you just leave what he doesn't eat, he will learn to like them. The ferrals that come to my backyard will eat every seed put out. Why? because they're hungry. No bird is going to let himself starve when there is seed in front of him. Relax. Or you will have a very spoiled little pigeon running the show. LOL. As far as the carrots and greens, or the peanuts, once he really tries them, he'll probably like them. Probably just not used to them.


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## jmaxpsi (Jul 31, 2009)

From my experience, Jay is right. I tried to convert more pellets into my feed. I just slowly change it a little at a time and now some of them love pellets. Of course they'll eat their favorite ones first. It's cheaper for me cause I can't afford the 14%/16% mixes. Pellets and whole corn are cheaper. I just put out enough so If they don't eat the pellets, the other pigeons will eat it and they will go hungry. In theory they have to eat the pellets as fast as they can too or it'll be gone. Hand feed the chopped peanuts(throw a couple peices in his mouth) let him taste it first. My pigeons goes nuts over peanuts. Good luck.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Yeah, pigeons can be even worse than kids. All of them get picky and spoiled if you give them a chance.
I was changing their feed twice a day in the beginning. Making special mixes of wild birdseeds, safflower, sunflower, red rape, pellets, and who knows what. They would pick only what they want, spill the rest and mess cage and loft floor. More than 2/3 of the feed were wasted. When you have 2~3 birds you can afford it time-wise and money-wise (I hate to waste food that can be used for ferals though).
Then I replaced feeders with no-spill ones, started changing feed once a day and poor little darlings started eating everything. They still pick their favorite pieces first but end up eating the rest too.
By the way crushed rabbit pellets and sprouts work well for these who do not like greens.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have used sprouts, as some prefer them, but I never thought of rabbit pellets. What a great idea!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

They do not eat the pellets just because they are there, they do not know they are food, untill they start to eat them...how do you get them to eat pellets, you do not over feed and ad them in a bit at a time. I changed over 28 birds to a half pellet and half pigeon feed diet. the feed gets measured, if they do not eat it all in say 20 mins, I cut back...the next time they may leave just a few stray seeds, but they did get just about all the pellets and the seed. so you see, you have to start with measured amounts of seed, get him eating that in a 15 min time...take it up, he may be hungry the next feeding and eat more, give him one ounce at a time and leave it for 15 mins and then he will learn to eat his feed at one sitting, then you can add in the pellets a bit at a time, he will get hungry enough to try them and then it will just be part of the feed he gets, you will learn over time how much he eats at one sitting...if a few strays are left I think that would be about right. I changed over my doves to a pellet diet, by adding more pellets slowly, they HAD to try them because, they were hungry, now that they like them and eat them, they are left in the cage and they eat at them a few times in the day and get their treat seeds one time in the day and only a teaspoon ful...you have to have a bit of tough love here, or they will pick and choose, IMO a diet with pellet in it covers what seeds lack. Harrison's say that commonly fed cereal grains like sunflower,millet,oats,safflower,and corn are deficient in at least 32 essential nutrients, seed fed birds often seem to be "addicted" and are sometimes difficult to convert to a healthier diet.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I started adding a small amount of pellets in their seed mix, and at first they ignored them. Aftrer a while, they started picking at them, and they found out that they like them. Now I just mix some in with their regular seed diet. They always eat all the pellets. Sometimes they just have to get used to something to try it. Then they find that they like it.


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## SPedigrees (Oct 27, 2004)

I make a mixture of dried green or yellow peas, rolled oats, couscous, barley, dried red or green lentils, flaxseed, and quinoa. I buy these ingredients in the organic and natural foods section of our (green) supermarket. This mix lasts her for quite a few months and seems to be keeping her in good health.

I don't trust commercial petfood of any kind since the petfood poisoning of 2007, and have home cooked for my cat and dogs since that time. Thus I'm skeptical of pellets designed for bird feeding. I prefer to feed whole grains that are recognizable and don't have the possibility of adulterating with melamine or other poisons. (For that matter I buy only whole foods and cook from scratch for us too, for the same reason!)


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SPedigrees said:


> I make a mixture of dried green or yellow peas, rolled oats, couscous, barley, dried red or green lentils, flaxseed, and quinoa. I buy these ingredients in the organic and natural foods section of our (green) supermarket. This mix lasts her for quite a few months and seems to be keeping her in good health.
> 
> I don't trust commercial petfood of any kind since the petfood poisoning of 2007, and have home cooked for my cat and dogs since that time. Thus I'm skeptical of pellets designed for bird feeding. I prefer to feed whole grains that are recognizable and don't have the possibility of adulterating with melamine or other poisons. (For that matter I buy only whole foods and cook from scratch for us too, for the same reason!)


I guess your not familiar with harrison's bird food, it is certified organic and has state of the art packaging, which protects the freshness of the product which only have natrual tocopherols as preservatives, the feed is tested for mycotoxins and rancidity, and the proof is in the pudding so to speak as good eating shows itself in the birds appearance....I have seen good improvment with my doves from going from an all seed diet to pellets for the most of their food intake, but pellets are not the only way to get good nutrition, most just do not have the time to duplicate the diet they would natrually eat, it is hard to know all that they eat in any one day or season to season if they were in the wild.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks, everyone! Exceptional advice. Have more to explore now in terms of foods and methodologies. We haven't been good about measuring or pacing his food intake mostly because after he goes back into his cage (after out time) it usually means we have to be gone for several hours, sometimes even through his dinner hour, and we want him to have some food in the cage. Again, this is all new to us so we'll work on perfecting it. But I'm now looking forward to experimenting a bit more.

SLIGHTLY UNRELATED - CLEANING/DANDER QUESTION: Don't want to over-populate the forum with new threads, so I'll ask it here:

I've been reading posts about bird dander/powder and allergies and had a question. At the wildlife hospital, I'm very careful to wear a mask when working in the bird rooms. I have some allergies in general, but nothing life-threatening. 

I wear a mask when cleaning Chauncey's cage. But . . . he flies around our home office and undoubtedly sheds dander and powder over our heads as we're working, right? The last thing I want to do is exacerbate or develop allergies by continued exposure. Especially since I plan to work with birds for the rest of my life. 

The office is the only place we can let him out to get exercise safely. I know it's not ideal. We have a super-duper air filter in that room (HEPA, particulates, even chemicals). And I have a HEPA vacuum. What else should I be doing to make sure the environment stays as clean as possible? 

(He doesn't much like baths. I've been trying very hard to figure out what will work for him, but he takes only one a week right now if we're lucky.)


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

If you are not allergic then there is not a problem, so the dander is just part of it, if you do develope allergies to it, then you would have to do something, just depends on how bad it is. I just vacuum up the dander. the baths keep the dander down. pigeons like to bath, but it does seem they like to do it in a group, if one starts they all want in on it, so perhaps because he has never had baths before and he is a lone pigeon he just is not as interested in it, I think if you got him a companion that did bath he would be right in there with her. with my pigeons it seems like it is like my chickens and their dust bathing, it is a flock thing, they all seem to do it together, and so my pigeons all seem to do the bath thing together, I have even seen some just watching the others bath and they act like they are bathing even though they are not in the pan...lol..so I think they get each other going.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Spiritwings. It IS a groupo thing. They really do enjoy bathing together. It's probably instinctual. In the wild, the more eyes to watch while they are bathing, the safer they are. It's just in them. They are, after all, very vulnerable when they are bathing. Do you use warm water rather than cold? They like that too. Not too warm, but a little warm, just to take the chill out. I love warm baths......................cold.........not so much! LOL.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks for the bath advice! I had been putting his bath outside his cage when he had his "out" time. He's used it only once.

Today, I put it in his cage BEFORE his out time and he went in for a bit. I poured in some lukewarm water. Then, I turned up the heat a bit in the apartment and he enjoyed drying off on a high shelf where the air was warm. I think this will be my M.O. And I may still try to find a bigger bath container for him. I tried a small, plastic litterbox, perfect size -- but he's scared of it. The sides are high and he won't get in, even if I give him a brick step-up. We scaled down to a plastic container that's about 12x10 by 3 inches high. He likes it, but he doesn't have much room to flap around in that one.

As always, we'll keep looking, keep trying. We're not yet in the position to get another pigeon although I'd love to give him some company for his baths -- and in general! He likes us okay, but he's not terribly human bonded so I think he'd be happier with another bird(s).

I still feel bad for him during those hours when he's alone. Even though I try to talk myself out of it, it does break my heart when I have to leave him by himself. We don't know what his life was like before. I often wonder if he'd been left to his own devices, if he would have gone home eventually to his pals. I realize that's a fruitless thought pattern, but it crosses my mind. Now, we want to make sure our apartment is the best thing for him before we commit to another wonderful bird. And, we want to make sure we can handle veterinary bills for both birds, too. 

Our biggest challenge might be getting him some sunshine. He can't stand being handled so I'd hate to catch him everyday and put him in a cage in the sun. I've been trying to minimize my hands-on contact until he's more used to me. The closest he'll get to me is about three feet away. And if he sees my hands moving, he flies off to the shelf in a panic. 

His cage (a dog crate) is huge and can't be easily moved. There's one sunny window in the other room but it's a window so he wouldn't be getting the benefits. And I don't want to risk him hitting any windows, so all of the blinds are closed if he's out and about.

Well, just another quandary, but we'll work through it. Our sweet unplanned pigeon roommate.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They do sell plastic boxes of all different sizes. Probably one just right for his bath. Maybe eventually he'll like the kitty litter pan. Hold onto it. As far as getting him some sunlight. I know they sell lights that are full spectrum. And if you buy a good sized mirror at job lot or big lots, or a dollar store, that would give him a little company when you are away. Pigeons often like mirrors.


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## Tamara21 (Jun 24, 2009)

Valeri,
Hey there sweetie!!Listen, Petey didn't show any interest in baths at first and I got him a kitty litter box that he looked at like you are crazy woman!!So here is what we did.I put him in the bathroom with me and at the sink I started flicking warm water at him and splashing him...we did this for weeks every day.Then one day I filled up the litter pan with warm water and brought him in and played a little in the sink and then moved my hands to the litter pan full of water and splashed him and he jumped in.So I continued to splash him and we take the little bath time together.He lifts his wings and I splash under him and we just have a great time (I LAUGH as I am covered in WATER).Afterwards he hops out onto the towel, I blow him dry with the blowdryer on low/warm and he falls asleep in the towel after he has warmed up.So you may have to play with him for a while.Also after reading a lot of your posts, I really think you shouldn't worry so much about handling him.He needs to get used to it and he will only get used to it with handling.Believe me Petey wasn't fond of it, but I think if you continue to give him his space he will forever just be distant.I don't know....I guess I just think that you need to work with him on that so that he can start to see you all as companions.Which does take care of a huge part of that lonely heartache that you and I both have when we leave them behind for a half a day!


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks Jay, and Tamara. Tamara, you've got my number! Pigeon guilt! It's awfully transparent, I know. 

I'm going to take your advice and start minimal amounts of handling. I'll see how it goes. I'd hate for him to associate hands with only bad things . . . like a trip to the vet. It will be quite the accomplishment if Chauncey overcomes his fear of our hands. I'd love to try your bath trick but he just doesn't like me well enough yet. I'm going to work on this and see what happens.

He's getting better about proximity to us. He'll perch on my computer screen, staring me down, when he's ready for me to fix him dinner. So that's an incremental move in the right direction. The minute I even lift my hand from the keyboard or the mouse, he is gone -- back up to his "safe zone" of the bookshelf. 

As always, thank you -- everyone -- for coddling me as I make my way on this adventure.


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## Tamara21 (Jun 24, 2009)

Valeri- too cute really....your boy sounds like he is just taking his sweet time to check everything out! I am sure it makes for a nice computer companion...mom you typed the wrong letter...LOL...I can see it! And yes I have your number cause I am the same exact way!! As I drive home I am always like calculating how long has he been in the cage, how long should I have him out for...although now I have no choice as just recently he gets let out and he comes flying out to look for me!! I know you don't have that option, neither do I really with two dogs...but he finds my head as a landing pad and he is happy!One day when you are holding him you are going to say OMG I can't believe it took us this long...he's lucky to have a mommy like you that is so devoted and willing to keep trying!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. He is a lucky bird. When I get rescues, often they are standoffish. I try to either find out what their favorite seeds are, or get them to try peanuts. Once they do, they usually love them. If they won't come to me, I put them in a little dish in their nestbox. Eventually, they try them, and usually love 'em. Once that happens, I offer them to the bird, only in a jar lid that I am holding. They can see them in something shallow like that when I hold it near them. If they want it, eventually they will come to you for it. Eventually, they'll land on you for the treat. Then it's just a matter of time til they learn to trust you. Once they see that they can come to you and you won't hurt them. It takes time, but gets good results. The fact that he gets that close to you when you are at the computer shows that he is not scared to death of you. Find out what he likes and use it. Or when he is hungry, offer him seed in a small dish or jar lid that you are holding.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Wonderful, Jay. I've been trying that trick with flax seeds (his favorite). He won't go for peanuts or sunflower seeds, two other treats recommended here. He sees the dish of flax seeds, and desperately wants it, but won't venture there yet. He flies back to the shelf and just stares at me. I'll keep at this with much patience. 

The last time I picked him up, he was skittish but did not grunt as he had in the past. I used the hand under and hand over grip which he liked better. That's the method we use for raptors at the hospital but I hadn't thought to use it for a pigeon until I researched it here. I held him for a very short time and then let him go. He was flustered and not one bit happy about it, but recovered pretty quickly. 

I will probably use your approach of slow, gentle encouragement in the future -- let him come to me and see what happens.

Thanks!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He probably doesn't like peanuts because he doesn't even know what the heck they are. I chop mine into small pieces. And if you slip some into his food mix, I bet he'd eventually try them. He doesn't know what he likes if he won't try them. Once he tries them, I'll bet you that he would LOVE them. This patient, getting them to come to me, works for most. I have one ferral handicapped bird that it doesn't work on. And she loves peanuts! Maybe someday. But she was adult and ferral. Was never used to people at all. Then broke a wing. She can flutter down, but can't really fly. She's not a happy camper, poor thing. Sometimes it takes months for a bird to realize that I am not going to hurt them, and learn to trust me. If I force it, it just scares them more. I want them to come to me because they want to. If I have to catch them to medicate or check them out or something, that's a different matter. I do what I have to. I think you'll do fine with patience.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Jay, I was able to get Chauncey to perch on my knee tonight -- a first. I held a dish of seeds in my lap. He was hungry and made us laugh because he searched EVERY corner of his area, his cage, the room for food -- hoping, just hoping, that there was something he could nibble on that wouldn't require getting too close to me.

He finally hopped on my knee, stood there for a minute, contemplated reaching a few inches farther toward the dish (held by my hand). But then he decided against it and flew to his "safe zone" on the bookshelf. We tried a few more times, but I didn't want to torture him so I put the food in his cage where he's accustomed to getting it now.

It was so sweet. It made both of our hearts melt to see the effort he was going through to try and trust . . . but obviously, these relationships build over time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

valeri said:


> Jay, I was able to get Chauncey to perch on my knee tonight -- a first. I held a dish of seeds in my lap. He was hungry and made us laugh because he searched EVERY corner of his area, his cage, the room for food -- hoping, just hoping, that there was something he could nibble on that wouldn't require getting too close to me.
> 
> He finally hopped on my knee, stood there for a minute, contemplated reaching a few inches farther toward the dish (held by my hand). But then he decided against it and flew to his "safe zone" on the bookshelf. We tried a few more times, but I didn't want to torture him so I put the food in his cage where he's accustomed to getting it now.
> 
> It was so sweet. It made both of our hearts melt to see the effort he was going through to try and trust . . . but obviously, these relationships build over time.


You're doing great. Keep at it. Soon he WILL take it from you. Once he gets used to being that close, he'll go for the food. Baby steps. Take your time. It's worth it in the end. Some days he won't come that close, but once he gets used to it, he'll come on his own. You really need to get him to try peanuts. They're addictive to them. LOL.


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## Tamara21 (Jun 24, 2009)

Valeri that is wonderful - the knee!! That is a huge step for him! Jay is right they do love peanuts but that too takes them getting used to.Petey wanted nothing to do with them at first and when I chopped them up and kept trying finally he has progressed to eating very small raw ones whole, he can't wait..same with the sunflower seeds.He has changed favorites several times!But again that is awesome and I am so happy that he has such a patient mommy and daddy that just love him no matter what!


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks, Tamara. I'm not sure how patient or good we are. But the fact is, we're committed to making life as good as possible for Chauncey, within the confines of our space and our own lives and schedules. I mentioned earlier that I tend to anthropomorphize. So, that's good for Chauncey, because I give him the benefit of the doubt. Bad for me because I worry too much. 

Even though we've fostered a number of animals in our lives, never in a million years did we anticipate having a pigeon living in our home office. With a resident cat. Too funny. You mention "parrot" and people don't even blink. Mention a pigeon to friends and eyebrows raise. It's amazing people tend not to think of domestic pigeons in this way. But we're hoping that at least a few people develop new appreciation for them because of our own limited experience.

And on the peanuts . . . okay . . . we'll keep trying! I've been chopping them up into smaller pieces but he tosses them violently out of his dish . . . almost as violently as he tosses the Harrison's bird pellets. Ha. He does make us laugh. But I'll persist. I'd love to find a treat that he just can't resist. And one that he can eat in larger amounts than he can the flax. (I know it's not a good idea to overdo the flax.)


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ok, here is a link with some ideas to stop the "violent" slinging of the feed...lol... or should I just say the mess...they still try to sling it. but these keep it contained.
http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/feedcontainers.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's a great link spiritwings. I like the tomato keeper thing.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Yes, great link. Thanks very much.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

*The Great News*

I put Chauncey's greens dish in front of a mirror tonight, and he finally ate some! Yay, a milestone. 

The whole-grain bread was a coup! He loved picking the grains from the slice. It will be a special treat now.

Until I can buy him a deeper crock or tomato-keeper-container, I used the cut Tupperware trick. It's helping with the food flinging.

*The Challenges*

On the flip side, he's getting more stubborn and aloof again. He seems even more afraid of me and my hands than he was a few days ago, even though I haven't handled him. I don't know if he's stressed (he's not cooing as much) or just going through some more adjustments. Again, we'll stay patient and see how he's doing.

He will go very, very hungry before he flies back to his cage now. Once he's there, he seems okay. But outside in our room, he sits there perched on the bookshelf with steely resolve. I can't catch him to save me, and I don't usually try because he's so afraid of my hands. I wish he could understand that if he keeps this up, it will be hard for me to let him out in the morning when I have meetings to go to in the afternoon. Any way to impart that to a feisty pij? 

*Take a Bath, Already* 

I'd really love for him to take regular baths, too, but he won't do it. I'm trying all sorts of things to entice him but I haven't figured out the magic formula. I notice more dander around the room and would really love for baths to become a regular occurrence. He's liked them when he's done them, but it's near impossible to get him in the water. I tried lifting him in the bath a few times when he first came to live with us and it traumatized him.

We are obviously taking our time, getting to know Chauncey and giving him space. I admit, there are days when it seems like he might not ever be happy with us. Then there are moments when he coos in response to a song I'm singing and I feel like maybe he can deal with us for the time being. Hopefully, it all works itself out.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't get discouraged. I know it's hard not to. But you are going to have good days, when he will come near, and bad days when he won't. Is there some way you could put up blinds or drapes that you could close to darken the room. That way you could just go over to him and pick him up to return him to the cage whenever you needed to. 

Have you tried holding up a little jar lid or something to him with his favorite seeds in it when he is hungry? I know some days, especially when you are in a hurry to go to work and he won't cooperate, can be very frustrating. You feel as though it will never get any better, but I think in his time it will.

I have a pair that I have been trying to get to come to me. They are both standoffish. They were finally coming for peanuts, but then they hatched an egg. So now anytime I go near the nest box, She wing slaps me and doesn't want me too near. Not at all friendly. It's discouraging, but I just chock it up to being a good Momma. After the baby is out of the box, we'll start over again. They came around, or started to, once. They'll learn to again. You just have to accept him on his terms, and he'll get more and more used to you.

As far as the bathing, if you can't entice him by splashing in the water, Can you leave it out, maybe with a plastic flannel backed table cloth under it, so as not to get things wet, and maybe he will go in when you are not right there. Maybe if he were alone, and not worrying about you watching him. Thanks for the updates. It nice to hear how things are going. Don't be discouraged. Just don't let it get to you. He'll get used to you. It sometimes takes a long time.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks, Jay. That's so helpful. Chauncey's M.O. right now is to leave the cage and perch on our highest bookshelf. He pretty much stays there the rest of the day, alternately dozing or watching us work on our computers. He won't come down for a bath, nor will he come visit unless he's hungry and there's food involved. I put the bath in his cage last week (I had been leaving it outside the cage) and he went right in. But now that doesn't work anymore.

He was coming on cue for food until I started holding the dish in my hand to entice him. I think he's associating food with the dreaded hand! (ha) So even when I shake the dish -- which would bring him flying back before -- he looks at my cock-eyed like, "am I gonna have to eat from that dish in your hand? No way, dude." Then when I put it in his cage he seems awfully suspicious -- still -- even though my hand is nowhere near.

Maybe I just need to wear wooly mittens -- or find a pigeon puppet.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He's not associating the food with your hand. Don't worry about that. He just doesn't want to go in his cage. If I were a pij, I wouldn't want to either. Why should I go in there, when I can perch on the bookshelf all day. Pigeons like places the higher the better. When we raised our original 6 babies, they would all fly up to the top of my china hutch, and perch there and go to sleep. They like height. Instinct. How high is his cage?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

well we do not know where he came from, If I just plucked one of my pigeons out of the loft and decided to make a pet out of him..it would be a long row to hoe. pigeons are not like parrots or budgies, pigeons can be aloof, and prefer their own kind..if that is what they have known all thier lives, and pigeons have their own personalities, some may tame up others will not. so depending on how this one was kept and raised and his personality, he may always be a "race" loft pigeon that only understands his own kind. he may never be a "pet" per say, so as long as you know his limitations the smoother it will go.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks, all. Jay, his cage is on a table, about 3 feet off the ground. The bookshelf is almost 8 feet high. I can definitely see why he prefers that. Although we're pretty cramped in our apartment, I actually had a dream the other night that I turned one of our closets (with a small window) into a loft for him. Ha. Pigeons on the brain!

Spirit Wings, we were just talking about that today -- about not knowing his background and only have a sense (possibly) from behavioral clues he gives us. Most of what he shows us suggests "race" and loft, according to what others have told us, what we've read.

We think he's very much a pigeon's pigeon. He loves hearing and seeing other pigeons. Well, I know all pigeons do.  I take a lot of photos of wildlife and birds, and as I was looking through my photos tonight, he started cooing like crazy with each picture. I was teary-eyed, wishing I could provide him with an aviary with people of his own ilk. If he stays with us, we will definitely get him a mate. But it won't be until the new year, owing to work schedules and finances.

We don't believe in making an animal anything he or she is not. I'm especially attuned to this, working with wild animals who should never, ever bond with humans. We don't want Chauncey to be a pet-type if he's not that into us. We just don't know right now how it will work out with his disposition.

I ponder these things about Chauncey because, again, we're still in the phase of wondering what's best for him. We go back and forth. I listen to all of the excellent encouragement and advice here and from what I understand, we're giving him much better than his alternatives. It's so helpful to hear, thank you! 

Again, this is coming from pigeon newbies still sorting through our own impressions (as you all can tell from my many posts).


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## SPedigrees (Oct 27, 2004)

It might help to raise his cage higher. Because of my predatory pets (cat and dogs) my pigeon's cage is suspended from the ceiling and she likes to be up high. I have a board wired to the top of her cage and she loves to perch up there 'on the roof' when out of her cage. I think the height of his cage might be one reason why Chauncey is not so keen on returning to his cage.

As far as regular baths, about once every 3 or 4 days seems to be the favored interval. Bathing doesn't curtail the "featherdust" that a pigeon sheds however. I think this is just normal, and I've found no solution other than frequent vaccuuming.

I would absolutely not feed Chauncey much at night, and not in the morning at all, so that when he sees you filling his feed dish he will go right into his cage. You really want him to be hungry when you let him out to fly (or perch on the bookshelf) so that going back into his cage will bring the reward of a meal. I feed Hedwig only once daily, in the late afternoon, and it is mostly gone by morning. 

The whole grain bread sounds like a good idea for a treat. I'll have to try that with my bird.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks very much. Chauncey's "cage" is a large dog crate (42 x27 x32) so there's no way to suspend it safely from above. It's heavy. It sits on a regular-height butcher block table. But I agree, he could stand to be higher. The back perch in his crate is about a foot off the crate floor, still not that high. If we end up building a custom cage, we'll put it on the same table but build higher up. We'll have to figure all this out.

Honestly, I don't blame him for not wanting to return to his cage. I wouldn't want to, either, given a choice.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

valeri said:


> Thanks very much. Chauncey's "cage" is a large dog crate (42 x27 x32) so there's no way to suspend it safely from above. It's heavy. It sits on a regular-height butcher block table. But I agree, he could stand to be higher. The back perch in his crate is about a foot off the crate floor, still not that high. If we end up building a custom cage, we'll put it on the same table but build higher up. We'll have to figure all this out.
> 
> Honestly, I don't blame him for not wanting to return to his cage. I wouldn't want to, either, given a choice.


 thinking on the cage thing, pigeons when they are in a loft situation, the cock bird will pick his perch or nest box, sometimes if you want a bird to "pick" a nest box you can lock him in it for a few days or a week, feed and water him in there and then when you let him out he tends to go back to that box and hang out there, but some will perch someplace diff for the night and just guard the box in the day...perhaps he was just not left long enough in there to see it as his own, instead he has picked another spot in the room and when they pick a spot ,they only leave it if another fights them over it and he loses..sounds like his spot is the shelf maybe.?..so I think he may of been let out too soon. but I could be wrong.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> thinking on the cage thing, pigeons when they are in a loft situation, the cock bird will pick his perch or nest box, sometimes if you want a bird to "pick" a nest box you can lock him in it for a few days or a week, feed and water him in there and then when you let him out he tends to go back to that box and hang out there, but some will perch someplace diff for the night and just guard the box in the day...perhaps he was just not left long enough in there to see it as his own, instead he has picked another spot in the room and when they pick a spot ,they only leave it if another fights them over it and he loses..sounds like his spot is the shelf maybe.?..so I think he may of been let out too soon. but I could be wrong.


What you say makes sense. But I also think that height has a lot to do with it. None of my birds would like a cage 3 feet up when there is a high shelf they can perch on. The pij we have in the house is on the top of a cupboard about 5 feet high. From there he/she can look down at us and everything in the room. Also keeps him safe from the dogs when I'm not here. I understand the problem of having just so much space in a room, but I think I'd try to replace the table for something higher. Then again, I'm sure many must keep their house pigeons in lower cages with no problems. It's just what they prefer, so if we can give him that, so much the better.


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## StanelyPidge09 (May 22, 2009)

Stanley, my pigeon, has his cage only like 2 feet off the ground and NOW he is completely fine with it and will go in and out of his cage freely. However, it took him awhile to get comfortable in his cage, like at least three months. I feel like this was not because of the height but simply because he would rather have been out of his cage then stuck in an enclosed area.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They do like height though. And will normally choose it, if given the chance. It's instinctual. Safer from predators.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks, everyone -- very much. So incredible of you all to weigh in with possible solutions ~! With respect to him finding his own perch, I suppose if he was let out too soon, there's nothing I can do about it now?? Or can he be re-trained? 

We were awfully confused at the start. Ha! Still are. We knew (from all the kind help here) that he should get used to his cage. But we'd also been hearing that he needed a few hours of exercise a day, being a muscular racing pigeon. So we didn't know when the right time was to finally let him out and we were getting concerned that he wasn't getting exercise. He was showing a bit of frustration being cooped up. He had been in a small bird cage for weeks before we got him, which made us feel extra sorry for him. I think we may have made the wrong judgment call on this.

He does settle in his cage for the night. And he lets us know it's "sleep" time when he jumps on his back perch -- which is a board about 8 inches wide, with lining paper and a brick, a basket with soft things inside, and a stuffed toy of a robin/bird he pretty much ignores.  We bought some black cloth to cover the back area of the crate at night, and he seems to like that.

It's almost like clockwork now. He'll fly back to his cage when he's hungry (about 5pm). We keep him in then because if he eats and gets back out, there's no getting him back. He rests at the side of his cage, watching us. Then between 8 and 9pm (summer sunset hours here), he jumps on his back shelf and we settle him in for the night, close the door, turn off our computers. 

In a way, he's been good for us because we used to work way too late into the night. And now, I pick up my book instead, even if it means getting tight on my deadlines. 

Honestly, if we were both home all day, we'd be fine with that schedule of his. I really don't blame him for wanting to be out all day. I would! If we had a two-bedroom apt. instead of one-bedroom, I guarantee we'd be making one room into "his" room now (lol).

I just wish I could get him back in midday, because he can only be out on those days when I'm home all day. I'd love to let him out in the morning if I have an afternoon work gig, but he won't come back in when I have to go. We'll think about getting some blackout cloths or curtains as Jay suggested. I'll continue to work on it, maybe giving him less food before he goes to bed so that he's finally hungry come 11am or noon when he's out in the morning.

As far as height, we'll definitely look into that, too. Come the first quarter of the year -- the busiest work time for me and my husband -- we'll be have a bit more expendable income to play around with solutions. What type of table could I find that's higher than your standard dining room table? I haven't seen one yet that could hold a huge dog crate. Maybe we can build something. Or use some super-strong shelving.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would have let him out too considering that he had been caged up for so long in a small cage. Anyway, that's how we learn. And EVERY BODY is still learning. We never stop. Always something new to learn. Always someone has a great idea that we never thought about. That's what's great about a site like this. We learn together. 
You know, I cover up the pij we keep in the liviing room at night. He's in here because that is where we spend a lot of time, and want him with us. But I'm a bit of a night owl, and couldn't possibly let his scedule determine mine. Just throw a towel over his cage to keep it darkened. Don still watches t.v., and I'm usually on the computer. I just ask him to keep it down a bit. I'm sure Scooter is used to it by now. You can do that. He'll adjust to activity in the room, and soon it will seem normal to him. He probably won't be able to sleep when it's too quiet! LOL.

As far as what to put his cage on, we use a little country cupboard about 5 feet hight. You can find them in second hand stores or antique shops, or even the salvation army. They can be painted to match your decor too. And they come in very handy for storage. You could put all his things in there. Or just things for your office. Think about it. You can buy really nice ones, or do as we did, for $100 bring home an old cupboard and stain or paint it. Actually, the old smaller armoires are great for this. And they can look nice and be handy. They come in different heights too. Just a thought. Think cupboard.............not table. Anyway, I think you guys are doing a great job. I had to learn with 6 babies. Now THAT was something else. I'm amazed that we all survived it. The Good Lord had to be watching over them, as I made some pretty dumb mistakes. LOL.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thank you, Jay! Very encouraging, your story and your advice. 

I was wondering about the covering him up part. I need to get a large bath towel in a darker color because the cream-colored towels we have just aren't dark enough. Or I'll just buy another few yards of the black, cotton fabric I'm using on the back of his cage. 

So -- if I want to work late on the computer, you really think he'll adjust? Hmmm. We fostered a Japanese Quail (we found him a beautiful aviary after about a month or so). But the poor guy -- as you may know -- was high strung. He leaped in his cage when he'd get stressed. One of those stresses was if we kept him up past sunset. We worried he'd hurt himself as Japanese Quail sometimes do when shooting upward in a panic. So we got used to closing up shop quick, like clockwork while he was here. 

If I could stay later in the office and work with Chauncey sleeping, I'd be elated. He does doze off during the day, on his shelf, with all the ambient noise. We have him in the office for precisely the same reason you have him in the living room. It's where I spend most of my day. 

(I know they need ventilation so I'd be sure to only use that large cover when I needed to work at night.)

** Great idea on the cupboard, by the way. How deep do they come? I have never looked into that possibility. Opens up a new world of options.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have mine on a cupboard that is 16" deep X 24" wide. It's about 5 ft high. They come in all different sizes. And it wouldn't hurt Chauncey to be covered at night. Lots of birds are covered at night. It keeps drafts off them. I cover mine each night. He still gets ventilation, and during the day, I keep two sides of his cage covered. That way he always has a cozy corner to go to. Covering him at night would be fine. No reason why you can't keep working on the computer. If you just put the cover on him each night, he would grow accustom to it, and he may even like the privacy.


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## Tamara21 (Jun 24, 2009)

Hey Val...may I call you that??When funds get a little better you can go to like Craigslist or even Petsmart or Petco and get a tall cage like mine for Petey...remember I started with the same size dog crate you had on the floor for a month! There are days I feel so sorry for Petey...he looks out at the birds...but then I opened the house all up this weekend and set him on the window sill in the bathroom - it was such a beautiful day and he didn't want anything to do with viewing the outside...he wanted to stay on my head...then he turned around and bit my ear!! So as you can see they rule and will try to rule the house. We go about our routine as normal as we can and let him adjust. We figure he has it better then the ferals of the world. And a plus with Chauncey is he is retired and looking to just live out his days in comfort, you are providing him with that so don't worry.Back to my cage...it was only $150 on Craigslist...perhaps that would work.But I will tell you Petey will go to the higher door in any room rather then be in the cage.


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