# Color guessing game



## DynaBMan

Okay, before I get into this post, I realize it is going to be total speculation as to the answer to the question. I just thought it might be interesting to see what you folks come up with, since most of you have had pigeons much, much longer than I.

Take a look at the the birds in the links below. The first is Bossy a blue bar hen and the second is Bandit, a cock that I believe would be a tiger grizzle. They have just hatched two babies and I am very curious as to what they will turn out to look like. I have looked at the color charts from Slobberknocker and again, I realize it is total speculation. I would just like your opinion, from looking at my birds and from your own experience.


http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/bossy1/

http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/p1010274/

In semi-unrelated news, Bandit is one mean Papa. He really argued with me this evening when I wanted him to take his proud self off the nest and let me get a good look at the babies. I'm talking about pecking, slapping, puffing up, the whole bit. I wish I had a video camera.


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## Eriduardo

From what I know they most likely will be blue grizzles or splashes.


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## jbangelfish

*If there is nothing behind what we see*

You should get blue grizzles with much more color than dad. Dad is stork marked, mom is blue bar. Stork marked is a double dose of grizzle which I think will make all young to be the darker or heavier marked grizzles. I can check my book to be sure but I'm fairly certain that this is the result.

There can be hidden factors and they could show up as well but you won't know until you raise some young or know the parents of these two.

Bill


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## DynaBMan

jbangelfish said:


> You should get blue grizzles with much more color than dad. Dad is stork marked, mom is blue bar. Stork marked is a double dose of grizzle which I think will make all young to be the darker or heavier marked grizzles. I can check my book to be sure but I'm fairly certain that this is the result.
> 
> There can be hidden factors and they could show up as well but you won't know until you raise some young or know the parents of these two.
> 
> Bill


Is stork marked the same thing as a tiger grizzle?


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## aarongreen123

*color charts*

can you post a link to the color charts? i am interested in learning the color stuff.
thanks!


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## DynaBMan

aarongreen123 said:


> can you post a link to the color charts? i am interested in learning the color stuff.
> thanks!


Just click on this link and look for Color Chart on the left side of the page.

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/


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## aarongreen123

*thank you!*

thanks for the link!


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## Lovebirds

You could get any color.............here's the parents and their 3rd round of kids. They are in an individual breeding pen, so there's no question on who the parents are. The cock's mother was very white like you're cock bird so that's where these little guys came from. If I didn't know that, I'd be scratching my head.


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## TheSnipes

They sure are cute


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## jbangelfish

*I don't really know what they mean by tiger*



DynaBMan said:


> Is stork marked the same thing as a tiger grizzle?


A tiger marked bird is not a grizzle at all but has had wing feathers plucked until they come in white. Seems alittle cruel but it's an old show practice. Tiger Swallows are Silesians that have had them plucked to come in white. Trumpeters may be grizzle but the tiger is not natural, at least to the degree of every other feather which is the desired outcome.

Grizzle is heavily streaked with white on a colored bird. It can be any color. Black or Recessive Red modify the Grizzle gene to a point of mottled instead of grizzled. Blue, Silver, Ash Red, Ash Yellow will appear as normal grizzle as they do not modify the gene. So would Bronze or Kite.

Double dose Grizzle (homozygous) appears as Stork Marked. The bird is mostly white, with some stray feathers colored and possibly dark wing tips and a dark tail, hence the name Stork. They have a tendency to become whiter with age and many lose the colored flights.

Ash Reds that are Double Dose Grizzle show very little color at all and bred together will eventually produce all white young. Most white pigeons are this but not all. It's an easy thing to figure out though by breeding them to anything else will produce 100% grizzled young.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

Not all tigers are plucked. Some mottles turn out to be tigered, but definitely not perfect tigers. Perfect ones pretty much require being plucked, like the nice Tiger Swallows people have made.


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## jbangelfish

*These birds have nothing to do with grizzle*



Lovebirds said:


> You could get any color.............here's the parents and their 3rd round of kids. They are in an individual breeding pen, so there's no question on who the parents are. The cock's mother was very white like you're cock bird so that's where these little guys came from. If I didn't know that, I'd be scratching my head.


They are piebald and can produce solids and anything in between but not grizzle or stork. The white is at the opposite end of what a stork is, inner, not outer.

Bill


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## DynaBMan

Lovebirds said:


> You could get any color.............here's the parents and their 3rd round of kids. They are in an individual breeding pen, so there's no question on who the parents are. The cock's mother was very white like you're cock bird so that's where these little guys came from. If I didn't know that, I'd be scratching my head.


Renee,

I see what you are saying. The colors and patterns can vary a great deal, from one generation to the next. I honestly do not know what the parents of Bandit looked like. When I picked him up from a local racer, the mother wasn't on the nest. I do know his bloodlines are White Bandit and Stichelbaut. Bossy is at least part Jansen, the rest I am not sure. I suppose this is part of the fun, not knowing how the youngsters are going to turn out.


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## jbangelfish

*I had Tiger Trumps*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Not all tigers are plucked. Some mottles turn out to be tigered, but definitely not perfect tigers. Perfect ones pretty much require being plucked, like the nice Tiger Swallows people have made.


Some of them were near perfect tigers without plucking but they may actually have pied genes and grizzled genes. I don't really know but it is possible that the grizzle suppresses the pied to sort of restrict the white from the tail and head and somewhat to the wing. I never had any white tails or badges show up on trumps. Some would appear as perfect tigers until you actually unfolded the wing and saw that they were not perfect. I still chose to leave mine natural.

I had Silesian Swallows also but never plucked any of them and never had Tigers.

Bill


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## DynaBMan

jbangelfish said:


> A tiger marked bird is not a grizzle at all but has had wing feathers plucked until they come in white. Seems alittle cruel but it's an old show practice. Tiger Swallows are Silesians that have had them plucked to come in white. Trumpeters may be grizzle but the tiger is not natural, at least to the degree of every other feather which is the desired outcome.
> 
> Grizzle is heavily streaked with white on a colored bird. It can be any color. Black or Recessive Red modify the Grizzle gene to a point of mottled instead of grizzled. Blue, Silver, Ash Red, Ash Yellow will appear as normal grizzle as they do not modify the gene. So would Bronze or Kite.
> 
> Double dose Grizzle (homozygous) appears as Stork Marked. The bird is mostly white, with some stray feathers colored and possibly dark wing tips and a dark tail, hence the name Stork. They have a tendency to become whiter with age and many lose the colored flights.
> 
> Ash Reds that are Double Dose Grizzle show very little color at all and bred together will eventually produce all white young. Most white pigeons are this but not all. It's an easy thing to figure out though by breeding them to anything else will produce 100% grizzled young.
> 
> Bill


Can you point me to some pictures of a stork marked grizzle? I am trying to find some, but so far, no luck.


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## jbangelfish

*Yours will not vary as much*



DynaBMan said:


> Renee,
> 
> I see what you are saying. The colors and patterns can vary a great deal, from one generation to the next. I honestly do not know what the parents of Bandit looked like. When I picked him up from a local racer, the mother wasn't on the nest. I do know his bloodlines are White Bandit and Stichelbaut. Bossy is at least part Jansen, the rest I am not sure. I suppose this is part of the fun, not knowing how the youngsters are going to turn out.


Hers are Piebald, yours are Grizzled and they are completely different.

Bill


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## DynaBMan

More speculation, but I was checking out the new babies this morning and from what I can tell, from the first little pin feathers coming in and the color of their skin where the wings connect to the body, I would say one of the babies is going to be a dark color and the one will be a light color. I will try to get some pictures later today and post them on this thread.


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## jbangelfish

*Look at bandit*



DynaBMan said:


> Can you point me to some pictures of a stork marked grizzle? I am trying to find some, but so far, no luck.


Your bird is stork marked. Was he darker as a youngster before the first moult? Normally, this is how stork mark works.

I have a stork marked roller hen and will try to get a picture of her posted. 

Bill


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## DynaBMan

jbangelfish said:


> Your bird is stork marked. Was he darker as a youngster before the first moult? Normally, this is how stork mark works.
> 
> I have a stork marked roller hen and will try to get a picture of her posted.
> 
> Bill


If you will look at the link in my signature that goes to My Pigeons and look for the pictures named Bandit, you will find some pictures before and after his first moult.


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## jbangelfish

*OK, I looked*



DynaBMan said:


> If you will look at the link in my signature that goes to My Pigeons and look for the pictures named Bandit, you will find some pictures before and after his first moult.


The bird is stork marked as I said. It was considerably darker when young. Yours also has or is bronze. It would be nice if this pattern would stay but if the bird is homozygous, they will moult out to the stork pattern. Yours will likely get even whiter over time. Bandit had to have been produced by either two heterzygous grizzles or one homozygous and one hetero but both had to be grizzle to produce him. One of the parents could have been a pure white as most of them are technically homozygous ash red grizzle. 

The young from this mating (bandit and the blue) will all be grizzles and maybe you'll get lucky and some will look more like the way bandit did as a youngster. These young birds from this mating will be heterozygous grizzles and look more like what people think of as normal grizzle.

These terms seem confusing at first and the genetics seem confusing as well but once you get used to them, they are really quite simple and you can learn to predict what many matings will produce. It's a tremendous advantage in your breeding program if you know a few of these simple rules. They don't change.

Bill


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## Margarret

I have black tigers. I'm told that they are a tiger grizzle on black spread. I have never plucked mine and wouldn't. Here is my latest pair. They look grizzle now, but will molt out to tiger.

Margaret


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## MaryOfExeter

Oh those are gorgeous birds Margaret! Are they Flights, or some other breed?
I'd like to see how they look after they moult out


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## DynaBMan

Margarret said:


> I have black tigers. I'm told that they are a tiger grizzle on black spread. I have never plucked mine and wouldn't. Here is my latest pair. They look grizzle now, but will molt out to tiger.
> 
> Margaret


Very sharp looking birds, Margaret. Thanks for posting the pictures.


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## DynaBMan

Okay, folks. I have some pictures of Bossy and Bandit's babies up on my blog, along with some pictures of the other babies. It certainly looks as if one of the babies will be dark and the other will be light, going by the way the feathers are looking as they start to come in. This could change with the moult.

Just follow the link that says My Pigeons and look towards the bottom of the page.


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## jbangelfish

*Hmmmm......*



DynaBMan said:


> Okay, folks. I have some pictures of Bossy and Bandit's babies up on my blog, along with some pictures of the other babies. It certainly looks as if one of the babies will be dark and the other will be light, going by the way the feathers are looking as they start to come in. This could change with the moult.
> 
> Just follow the link that says My Pigeons and look towards the bottom of the page.


I looked and it certainly does look like a light and a dark youngster. Let's see what they look like in a couple weeks.

You also have some pied markings in your birds and if Bandit has both pied and grizzle factors, you could get a wide variety of markings as someone else did but theirs were just pied, no grizzle.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*Very cool looking birds*



Margarret said:


> I have black tigers. I'm told that they are a tiger grizzle on black spread. I have never plucked mine and wouldn't. Here is my latest pair. They look grizzle now, but will molt out to tiger.
> 
> Margaret


Black modifies grizzle to a different look than normal grizzle and turns it to a mottle, which can result in the tiger pattern. Grizzles tend to get lighter over time and the first moult can sometimes produce a radical change in their appearance.

Recessive red and yellow have the same effect on grizzle as does black and creates mottles instead of grizzles.

Bill


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## DynaBMan

jbangelfish said:


> I looked and it certainly does look like a light and a dark youngster. Let's see what they look like in a couple weeks.
> 
> You also have some pied markings in your birds and if Bandit has both pied and grizzle factors, you could get a wide variety of markings as someone else did but theirs were just pied, no grizzle.
> 
> Bill


I really don't think Bandit has the pied factor, but I could be wrong. One thing for sure, it is going to be interesting to see how these birds turn out. It should add a different look to my loft, to say the least.


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## Margarret

MaryOfExeter said:


> Oh those are gorgeous birds Margaret! Are they Flights, or some other breed?
> I'd like to see how they look after they moult out


Thanks. They are Domestic Show Flights. I'll post pictures after the molt.


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## DynaBMan

Maybe this should go in a different thread, but since it is still about my birds, I will post it here.

The babies in the picture at the link below are out of Frosty and Scrappy, a red-check cock and a blue bar hen, with a little splash thrown in for good measure. I think she also has the dirty factor, which gives here a smudged look. At first, I thought both babies were going to be red-check birds, but at a closer look this evening, the bird on the right looks as if it is going to be a pale blue, with a few red feathers sprinkled here and there. This baby may be more interesting to watch grow than the babies of Bandi and Bossy. The picture is cut down to save on size, but it is really clear in a larger picture.

http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/p1010037/


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## Lovebirds

DynaBMan said:


> Maybe this should go in a different thread, but since it is still about my birds, I will post it here.
> 
> The babies in the picture at the link below are out of Frosty and Scrappy, a red-check cock and a blue bar hen, with a little splash thrown in for good measure. I think she also has the dirty factor, which gives here a smudged look. At first, I thought both babies were going to be red-check birds, but at a closer look this evening, the bird on the right looks as if it is going to be a pale blue, with a few red feathers sprinkled here and there. This baby may be more interesting to watch grow than the babies of Bandi and Bossy. The picture is cut down to save on size, but it is really clear in a larger picture.
> 
> http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/p1010037/



Maybe it's going to be a silver. I get a silver once in a while and think it's a light blue at first..........have to wait and see I guess.


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## DynaBMan

Lovebirds said:


> Maybe it's going to be a silver. I get a silver once in a while and think it's a light blue at first..........have to wait and see I guess.


You wouldn't happen to have a picture of one of your silver birds, would you? I have been trying to find one online, but a search for silver pigeon comes up with a Beretta shotgun.


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## jbangelfish

*Silver is dilute blue*



DynaBMan said:


> You wouldn't happen to have a picture of one of your silver birds, would you? I have been trying to find one online, but a search for silver pigeon comes up with a Beretta shotgun.


As a baby it would have short down and appear naked compared to a non dilute baby. It is in appearance just like a blue only lighter or diluted, sort of pastel.

Frosty is a red check or checker which is ash red. He also has white flights which is a form of pied. He could be split for dilute which would produce dilute hen babies. I did not find a photo of the hen. 

Bill


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## DynaBMan

jbangelfish said:


> As a baby it would have short down and appear naked compared to a non dilute baby. It is in appearance just like a blue only lighter or diluted, sort of pastel.
> 
> Frosty is a red check or checker which is ash red. He also has white flights which is a form of pied. He could be split for dilute which would produce dilute hen babies. I did not find a photo of the hen.
> 
> Bill


Here is a picture of Scrappy.

http://myviewmytake.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/scrappy.jpg?w=128&h=96


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## DynaBMan

jbangelfish said:


> As a baby it would have short down and appear naked compared to a non dilute baby. It is in appearance just like a blue only lighter or diluted, sort of pastel.
> 
> Frosty is a red check or checker which is ash red. He also has white flights which is a form of pied. He could be split for dilute which would produce dilute hen babies. I did not find a photo of the hen.
> 
> Bill


I can see no difference in the down of the two babies. The color is the only thing that struck me as different.


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## jbangelfish

*I'll try to get some pictures today*

I can show some of the colors and it should become very clear. I have silver as well as nearly every other color that a roller pigeon can have.

I'm getting confused at to what birds we are talking about.
Maybe we could sort to a pair at a time per thread. I'm getting old and easily confused. 

Bill


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## re lee

In race birds the silver color is most often A lighter color mealy bar birds. like the red velvet it has lighter tail and flight feathers. NOW silver has been introduced from othere breed into homers Wher you get near the known silver color as othere breeds have. Then othere breeds use silver times blue to keep and set the silver. Just as black in race birds is not as intence as othere breeds. But most often black carrying blue giving a soot black. The Joe quinn notebook is set more for color breeding and was not as geared more for race birds, as in race birds to get many of the known colors breed out cross had to introduced. This would be a set back for race quality to give color. NOw you find many different colors in race birds. The softer colors have weaker feathers that break down faster if being raced much.


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## Lovebirds

DynaBMan said:


> You wouldn't happen to have a picture of one of your silver birds, would you? I have been trying to find one online, but a search for silver pigeon comes up with a Beretta shotgun.


Here's the only Silver I have. It's a 2008 young bird. This color is also called Mealy. I think it should be called a Red Bar myself.........


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## DEEJAY7950

When I see that color bird I think of Recessive red right away!
Beautiful bird BTW!


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## Lovebirds

DEEJAY7950 said:


> When I see that color bird I think of Recessive red right away!
> Beautiful bird BTW!


Thanks. I've only ever had one recessive red bird. He sure was pretty. A man tried to buy him and I wouldn't sell him. He got lost on his first race and was never seen again.


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## DynaBMan

Lovebirds said:


> Here's the only Silver I have. It's a 2008 young bird. This color is also called Mealy. I think it should be called a Red Bar myself.........


I have a bird that color myself. I thought she was a red-bar mealy. Here is a picture of her. I actually do not remember her being the color of the little bird when she was young. Might have been.

http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/jessie21/


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## Lovebirds

DynaBMan said:


> I have a bird that color myself. I thought she was a red-bar mealy. Here is a picture of her. I actually do not remember her being the color of the little bird when she was young. Might have been.
> 
> http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/jessie21/


Wow.........she's pretty!! All the different names for the same color can get confusing.


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## jbangelfish

*Yes, mealy and red bar are the same*



Lovebirds said:


> Here's the only Silver I have. It's a 2008 young bird. This color is also called Mealy. I think it should be called a Red Bar myself.........


As is red check or checker. They are ash red and calling them silver only confuses things as silver is not ash red at all. Bird colors are not always how they sound. Red is brown, yellow is tan, etc.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*Many call them silver red bar*



DynaBMan said:


> I have a bird that color myself. I thought she was a red-bar mealy. Here is a picture of her. I actually do not remember her being the color of the little bird when she was young. Might have been.
> 
> http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/jessie21/



This is what I call them too and I think is even the color class for show. As long as we don't just say silver and include red bar, we should know that it is a mealy or ash red bird. I'll post some silvers in a sec.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*This is silver*

Here are some silver birds.








Oh boy, I don't know if this worked or not. If it did, photos show a silver bar self hen, silver check self hen and a silver bar white flight hen. Hope this works. First try with photobucket.

Bill


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## Lovebirds

jbangelfish said:


> Here are some silver birds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh boy, I don't know if this worked or not. If it did, photos show a silver bar self hen, silver check self hen and a silver bar white flight hen. Hope this works. First try with photobucket.
> 
> Bill


 That didn't work. Well I copied something from you post and it took me to these pictures, but I don't they are the correct ones? 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0007.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0006.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0005.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0004.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0003.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0001.jpg


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## MaryOfExeter

AH. All these different names for colors are confusing me.
I wish all pigeon people could just decide on one name, you know? It's confusing when people call red bars mealy or silver, when silver is the dilute of blue bar?


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## re lee

jbangelfish said:


> Here are some silver birds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh boy, I don't know if this worked or not. If it did, photos show a silver bar self hen, silver check self hen and a silver bar white flight hen. Hope this works. First try with photobucket.
> 
> Bill


The difference is in racing homers what has been called silver for many years,is A light bared ash red Near mealy colored But lighter whiteish gray tail wing flights and whiteish gray body. NOW there are getting to be some true silvers in race birds nowday. But the were brought in from breed outcross By people woreking color lines. These true silvers, duns, browns ect many are not top race birds. though some can race. And some just can not handle the hard races or the long races. As the feather they carry is still to soft which makes it break down at times as though someone burn them off. Most other breeds that do not haver to spend the air time as race bird do handle the colors well. But in homers Work has to be done opn certion colors to make a race bird out of that color. which would result in a duller color pattern on the softer colors. Look at most ressesive red race birds they still show thje blue line throught the flights and tail. Which helps maintain feather quality to a point. In other words race birds feather quality has to be maintained and any newer color or such has to be built for strengh and race quality breeding. . That is a little harder then any other breed But there are and is several today working on these projects. Perhaps someday soft colored race winners will be a comon thing. But still work to be done.


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## DynaBMan

I just came in from feeding my birds and checking on the little ones. The two nests in question are going to have some unusual looking birds coming out of them, at least as youngsters. The two babies out of my stork grizzle bird look as if they are going to be different from each other. One looks as if it is going to have dark shoulders with white wings. The other looks very light colored.

The second nest is the one that contains the youngster that looks to be a light blue or silver. It is getting more noticeable every day. It's nest mate is going to be a red check, but it looks to be a very dark red with what looks to be a head of the same color. I am really anxious to see what they are going to look like.


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## Lovebirds

DynaBMan said:


> I am really anxious to see what they are going to look like.


SO ARE WE!!!!!


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## DynaBMan

Lovebirds said:


> SO ARE WE!!!!!


Renee,

I was reading in the "Genetics" thread that the spread factor turns a red bird into an ash colored bird. I wonder if I am correct in thinking ash would be grayish bird? If so, then it is possible the last little bird we have been discussing is actually a red bird with the spread factor.

I know one thing, I can't hardly wait to get home from work to see how much they have changed during the day.


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## Eriduardo

You can tell if a bird is going to be a red bar mealy or a silver, when they're young by their quill feathers. They will look lavender or some kind of purple/violet in color compared to the blues and blacks. Sometimes silver is called lavender. Like the bird in my avatar it looks purplelish in color, also know as lavander or silver. Ofcourse I don't believe in lavender so I call it a silver. The bird in my avatar was a silver splash that I bought a while ago. Unfortunately, I lost this bird when my neighbors kids opened the door to my breeder loft I lost half my breeders that day I was very angry  and upset  at the same time.


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## jbangelfish

*lavender is actually mealy or spread ash red*



Eriduardo said:


> You can tell if a bird is going to be a red bar mealy or a silver, when they're young by their quill feathers. They will look lavender or some kind of purple/violet in color compared to the blues and blacks. Sometimes silver is called lavender. Like the bird in my avatar it looks purplelish in color, also know as lavander or silver. Ofcourse I don't believe in lavender so I call it a silver. The bird in my avatar was a silver splash that I bought a while ago. Unfortunately, I lost this bird when my neighbors kids opened the door to my breeder loft I lost half my breeders that day I was very angry  and upset  at the same time.


They will have long yellow down as babies, silvers will have thin whitish down. They are also quite different in appearance. They look silver to us but they have different genes and what is genetic silver appears just as blue, can be check, bar or barless.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*You get used to it*



MaryOfExeter said:


> AH. All these different names for colors are confusing me.
> I wish all pigeon people could just decide on one name, you know? It's confusing when people call red bars mealy or silver, when silver is the dilute of blue bar?


As long as you include the words red bar when talking about mealy, it should clarify which one you are talking about. Funny they don't call them silver red check but they do call them silver red bar. Both are ash red. Silver will have dark gray bars or checks. Silver in some breeds can have white bars or white spangles such as Swallows and German toys but this is from another modifier called bronze stencil factor. Bronze sounds like a misnomer as the markings are white but that is because the bronze was bred out of them long ago and turned to white. Inferior quality German Toys will have the bronze showing through and will not have a clean white bar or spangle. I've seen it the most on Ice Pigeons. I think this is the same factor that makes the Pheasant pigeon appear the color that it does, the bronze has been allowed to stay or mix with white to make a very unique colored bird.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*Not recessive red at all*



DEEJAY7950 said:


> When I see that color bird I think of Recessive red right away!
> Beautiful bird BTW!


In fact this color was originally called dominant red but was later changed to ash red by Dr Williard Hollander. That particular type is normally referred to as silver red bar or mealy. To me, silver red bar describes it perfectly.

It was originally called dominant red because it is dominant to all other colors.

Bill


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## jbangelfish

*Well, you did better than I did*



Lovebirds said:


> That didn't work. Well I copied something from you post and it took me to these pictures, but I don't they are the correct ones?
> 
> http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0007.jpg
> 
> http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0006.jpg
> 
> http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0005.jpg
> 
> http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0004.jpg
> 
> http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0003.jpg
> 
> http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/jbangelfish/IMG_0001.jpg


The birds in the photos are:

Photo #001 shows a silver barred hen in front of a blue check pied cock bird

#003 is a silver check self

#004 Blue stork marked yh

#005 Dilute Bronze Stork mark yh, still getting lighter

#006 Dun Mottle yh

#007 Silver Bar Self

Thanks for pulling the pics. I sure goofed it up. Anyway, you should be able to see what true silver looks like as there are 3 of them in these pictures. Notice, they are all hens. I have no silver cock birds and no dun cock birds as they are slightly more unusual. This is because there are less ways to produce dilute cock birds.

There are also two stork marked birds, each in a different stage of their developement. The darker one has gone through a couple of moults and the dilute bronze has only been through one. Both are likely to get lighter. It is possible that the dilute bronze is not stork marked but just a light grizzle but I think she will moult to stork as most of her color is in the tail and wingtips.

Let me know if you can tell what silver is now.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Not exactly*



DynaBMan said:


> Renee,
> 
> I was reading in the "Genetics" thread that the spread factor turns a red bird into an ash colored bird. I wonder if I am correct in thinking ash would be grayish bird? If so, then it is possible the last little bird we have been discussing is actually a red bird with the spread factor.
> 
> I know one thing, I can't hardly wait to get home from work to see how much they have changed during the day.


Spread factor turns a blue bird to black. All black pigeons are blue with spread factor.

Ash is gray, this is why Dr Hollander chose to name it as such as it used to be called dominant red. He referred to it as the mark of the ash, which can be found more in the primaries and the tail of ash red birds. Mealies have it over the entire body and appear as silver. Add spread factor and some are lavender with no bars. Many with this genetic makeup will just be messy mixes of browns and grays.

Bill


----------



## Pigeon0446

Lovebirds said:


> Here's the only Silver I have. It's a 2008 young bird. This color is also called Mealy. I think it should be called a Red Bar myself.........


The pigeon in the picture in the post I quoted is a plane old silver. A mealy is a silver with no bars. Well atleast here on Long Island. But I've seen on this site ppl have different names for the colors then we have around here. But I have a beautiful lil mealy on my young bird team I'll take a pic and try to post it later.


----------



## jbangelfish

*I'm not trying to argue*



Pigeon0446 said:


> The pigeon in the picture in the post I quoted is a plane old silver. A mealy is a silver with no bars. Well atleast here on Long Island. But I've seen on this site ppl have different names for the colors then we have around here. But I have a beautiful lil mealy on my young bird team I'll take a pic and try to post it later.


Silver red bar is mealy and spread ash red can also be called mealy and has no bars. They are sometimes called lavender when they have no bars. Red check is the same as silver red bar except the pattern is changed to check, still ash red. The most important part of the difference between these silver red bars and mealies and true silver is that the red bars and mealies are not dilute and true silver is dilute and the young have a completely different look in the nest. Silver bar is silver, so is silver check or silver barless and has nothing to do with silver red bar. They (true silvers) are nothing more than dilute blues. 

I know it's alittle confusing especially when different interest groups such as race teams or show groups decide to suit the names to their liking. True silver is rare in homing pigeons as are any dilute colors as it is said that they have a soft feather that is not suitable to racing. Ash red is quite the opposite and is very popular in racing birds as is blue. Ash red is a natural occurring mutation from blue pigeons even in the wild.


----------



## Pigeon0446

The pigeon in the first pic would be considered a mealy here. And I don't want anybody to tell me it was bred for color because it wasn't. It's father was 2nd at 163 miles against over 500 pigeons. And it's mother won at 308 miles against 391 pigeons. 

In the second pic is another bird who I considered a mealy when he was young but now he molted out and changed a lil. He was was good flyer coming in 7th agains 453 pigeons at 308 miles. The lil baby sticking out from under him is going to be a yellow.

And if anybody wants to see some yellow homers that are bred to win take a look at this thread I have a bunch of pics of the up on there. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=26092


----------



## Pigeon0446

The first pic is my Dun Grizzle who is the grand father or great grand father to all my yellows as the birds who raise the yellows for me are out of him when he was mated to a yellow. He was 2nd at 163 miles back in 1996 when I was 15. He was my first bird to do good in race now 12 years later he's still breeding for me. The lil mealy in the pic in the post above is his baby. 

The second pic is one of my young yellows along with a silver splash out in my training screen. They will be flying for me in this years YB season.

In the last pic there's one of my chocolates. Another odd ball color that I raise that does quite well for me in races. This birds brother won the 200 then the next week came home in the 250 and took 10 mins to get in, in a 1800 speed race and still came in second in the combine with over 2000 birds, and ending up only 24 seconds out of first.


----------



## re lee

The 3rd bird looks more ash red then chocolate. Yellow has been in racing birds for many many years They race Ok, Any waY I am glad you started young and have stayed with the hobby Hope you stay in the hobby for many more years


----------



## MaryOfExeter

To me, that third bird looks like something I'd call indigo, since I'm pretty sure it's body and tail are more blue-ish than a normal ash red? I don't know if it IS an indigo since I'm definitely not a genetic genius, but I call all my blue/red colored birds that.
Like these:







(ignore my crazy pj pants  )








I've also got a very interesting young bird right now that I need to get a picture of. He's an indigo for sure, with a strong difference between the solid red wings and blue head/body/tail/flights (in fact, that first picture is of his mom. his dad was a slightly pied black). He's also got some blue checks on the wings, like the last picture the previous person posted. My dad thinks he's ugly, but I stick up for him and blame it on the moult


----------



## Pigeon0446

I grew up helping my dad with the birds and don't worry about me I'm never leaving this sport. It's just too bad that the sport seams to be dieing a slow death. Because there's not enough new/young ppl getting into the sport. But who knows only time will tell. In time maybe I'll have to move down to Spring Hill Florida where all the pigeons fliers from up here seam to be moving to, so I can fly against a decent amount of ppl. Right now our combine is fine with over 120 lofts shipping each week and my club shipping anywhere between 25 and 35 shippers on a given week. But each year the numbers are dropping and most of the guys are getting up there in age I think I'll be lucky to be able to fly against 25 guys up here in the combine in 15 years.

As for the chocolate being an ash red I'll try to take a pic tommorrow with a red and one of my chocolates together to show you the difference.

My chocolates are down from the birds on this web site http://www.loucoletta.com/cocos_dream.htm He calls them bronzes and thats what they kinda look like they look like bronze tiplets. I call it a chocolate. But eveybody has thier own name for colors.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

People who race almost always call bronze, chocolate. It makes sense, but I've also seen pigeons who actually are brown, called chocolates by people. I believe it was mookees that I saw called chocolate.


----------



## DynaBMan

Wow, I never dreamed my posting about the color of my upcoming birds would prompt such a discussion about colors. I am glad it did, because I have learned a lot. In a few days, I will have some pictures of the little birds and from all indication, they should be a little different and a whole lot good looking. Of course, I could be a little biased.


----------



## jbangelfish

*I think they are bronze as well*



Pigeon0446 said:


> I grew up helping my dad with the birds and don't worry about me I'm never leaving this sport. It's just too bad that the sport seams to be dieing a slow death. Because there's not enough new/young ppl getting into the sport. But who knows only time will tell. In time maybe I'll have to move down to Spring Hill Florida where all the pigeons fliers from up here seam to be moving to, so I can fly against a decent amount of ppl. Right now our combine is fine with over 120 lofts shipping each week and my club shipping anywhere between 25 and 35 shippers on a given week. But each year the numbers are dropping and most of the guys are getting up there in age I think I'll be lucky to be able to fly against 25 guys up here in the combine in 15 years.
> 
> As for the chocolate being an ash red I'll try to take a pic tommorrow with a red and one of my chocolates together to show you the difference.
> 
> My chocolates are down from the birds on this web site http://www.loucoletta.com/cocos_dream.htm He calls them bronzes and thats what they kinda look like they look like bronze tiplets. I call it a chocolate. But eveybody has thier own name for colors.


There are certain color classifications that have been laid down by the real genetic experts, certainly not by me. People do refer to something as chocolate but that is not really a pigeon color. Brown is a pigeon color as is red, ash red and many many others. 

I can't remember which birds people are referring to as chocolate but I'm certain that there is a proper genetic name for it. Maybe George will know it. I'd have to do some checking. The bird that I saw in the photo looks very bronze to me. There are about 7 different bronzes.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*This is why we need a genetics forum*



DynaBMan said:


> Wow, I never dreamed my posting about the color of my upcoming birds would prompt such a discussion about colors. I am glad it did, because I have learned a lot. In a few days, I will have some pictures of the little birds and from all indication, they should be a little different and a whole lot good looking. Of course, I could be a little biased.


I love talking about this and love learning what more there is to learn. There is always something.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*What is the baby from?*



MaryOfExeter said:


> To me, that third bird looks like something I'd call indigo, since I'm pretty sure it's body and tail are more blue-ish than a normal ash red? I don't know if it IS an indigo since I'm definitely not a genetic genius, but I call all my blue/red colored birds that.
> Like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (ignore my crazy pj pants  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also got a very interesting young bird right now that I need to get a picture of. He's an indigo for sure, with a strong difference between the solid red wings and blue head/body/tail/flights (in fact, that first picture is of his mom. his dad was a slightly pied black). He's also got some blue checks on the wings, like the last picture the previous person posted. My dad thinks he's ugly, but I stick up for him and blame it on the moult


Indigo in the homozygous state looks very similar to ash red. The heterozygous state appears as an almost purple blue. For the homozygous bird to show up, both parents have to have the gene. I am not aware of this color in racing homers but it could exist. I have seen it in exhibition type homers.

The birds in the pics look more kite or bronze to me. Kite is one of the seven bronzes and shows in the flights as the photo and in the shield area. True kite is normally on a black or t pattern blue which is near black. Some call them blue blacks.

Bill


----------



## re lee

MaryOfExeter said:


> People who race almost always call bronze, chocolate. It makes sense, but I've also seen pigeons who actually are brown, called chocolates by people. I believe it was mookees that I saw called chocolate.


 Mookies have DUN not chocolate. Its a good dun color. Bronze is say near chestnut color having black flights and tail. Dark ash reds would look near bronzed but still show the ash in tail and flight. Even indigo might look dark Yes the sport has dropped alot over the many years. And will drop more as time goes. Getting young people in the sport is the only hope.


----------



## Margarret

Bill, you mentioned seven bronzes. What are they. I know of Modena bronze is all.

Margaret


----------



## george simon

MaryOfExeter said:


> People who race almost always call bronze, chocolate. It makes sense, but I've also seen pigeons who actually are brown, called chocolates by people. I believe it was mookees that I saw called chocolate.


 HI BECKY, It is unfortunate that race people use the word chocolate when they are talking about an INDIGO or BRONZE. Those that study genetics do not call indigo or bronze any other color. As BILL has said there are 7 different bronzes. .GEORGE


----------



## jbangelfish

*Off the top of my head, I'll try*



Margarret said:


> Bill, you mentioned seven bronzes. What are they. I know of Modena bronze is all.
> 
> Margaret


Archangel bronze
Modena bronze
Tippler bronze
Brander bronze
Toy stencil bronze
Kite 
Roller bronze

Well, I thought of 7, maybe there's more as I'd surprise myself if I remembered all of them.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Hey George*



jbangelfish said:


> Indigo in the homozygous state looks very similar to ash red. The heterozygous state appears as an almost purple blue. For the homozygous bird to show up, both parents have to have the gene. I am not aware of this color in racing homers but it could exist. I have seen it in exhibition type homers.
> 
> The birds in the pics look more kite or bronze to me. Kite is one of the seven bronzes and shows in the flights as the photo and in the shield area. True kite is normally on a black or t pattern blue which is near black. Some call them blue blacks.
> 
> Bill


I was thinking about the birds in these photos and it occurred to me that the youngster looks a bit andalusion to me. What do you think? If dad is Indigo (is he?) and mom were a black we get andalusion. Many bronzes are overlays that mingle with other colors and the bird looks to have it as well. Interesting little guy, I'd like to see him when he moults out.

Bill


----------



## re lee

jbangelfish said:


> Indigo in the homozygous state looks very similar to ash red. The heterozygous state appears as an almost purple blue. For the homozygous bird to show up, both parents have to have the gene. I am not aware of this color in racing homers but it could exist. I have seen it in exhibition type homers.
> 
> The birds in the pics look more kite or bronze to me. Kite is one of the seven bronzes and shows in the flights as the photo and in the shield area. True kite is normally on a black or t pattern blue which is near black. Some call them blue blacks.
> 
> Bill


 these birds DO look indigo to me. Notice the deeper color from what you would see in ash red. And depth of color in the near bronzing. I think indigo check. Is more the color.


----------



## george simon

jbangelfish said:


> There are certain color classifications that have been laid down by the real genetic experts, certainly not by me. People do refer to something as chocolate but that is not really a pigeon color. Brown is a pigeon color as is red, ash red and many many others.
> 
> I can't remember which birds people are referring to as chocolate but I'm certain that there is a proper genetic name for it. Maybe George will know it. I'd have to do some checking. The bird that I saw in the photo looks very bronze to me. There are about 7 different bronzes.
> 
> Bill


 The chocolates are geneticly INDIGO's I have, 10 or 12 in the loft now one of them is a HOMOZYGOUS INDIGO I bred to get one for my Andalusian breeding program.he was bred in an individual cage so I know that is pure for indigo(homozygous) Now if anyone was to see this bird they would say he is a red check,but in fact he is not.You must understand that indigo is a modifier that effects color,the parents of this bird are blue checks carring the indigo factor.I hope to learn how to post pictures so that I will be able to show you all some of the things that I speak of,GENETICS is a fascinating subject I would hope that some of you would would study this subject.. .GEORGE


----------



## george simon

MaryOfExeter said:


> To me, that third bird looks like something I'd call indigo, since I'm pretty sure it's body and tail are more blue-ish than a normal ash red? I don't know if it IS an indigo since I'm definitely not a genetic genius, but I call all my blue/red colored birds that.
> Like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (ignore my crazy pj pants  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also got a very interesting young bird right now that I need to get a picture of. He's an indigo for sure, with a strong difference between the solid red wings and blue head/body/tail/flights (in fact, that first picture is of his mom. his dad was a slightly pied black). He's also got some blue checks on the wings, like the last picture the previous person posted. My dad thinks he's ugly, but I stick up for him and blame it on the moult


 HI BECKEY,I like the picture of the young bird,I thimk this little guy is going to molt out into a good looking ANDALUSIAN I feel that he will lose that indigo color in the molt his tail has the andalusion look already, the small cover feathers in the wing have a black laceing which is also a characteristic of andalusion. Let me make somthing clear when a black carring spread (which is a modifier) is mated to an indigo (another modifier) you have two modifiers working you will get not always an andalusion.These andalusions are geneticly indigo spread. .........................GEORGE


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Sadly the picture of that young bird, is a few years old. The poor little guy got attacked before I could ever get another picture of him. I always hated it when my 'special' colored birds died. I would have loved to see him when he moulted out 
I've turned out some interesting colors so far this year that I need to take pictures of, including one in the nest that appears to be a yellow grizzle, and another that almost looks like the YB I posted.


----------



## jbangelfish

*Try photobucket*



george simon said:


> The chocolates are geneticly INDIGO's I have, 10 or 12 in the loft now one of them is a HOMOZYGOUS INDIGO I bred to get one for my Andalusian breeding program.he was bred in an individual cage so I know that is pure for indigo(homozygous) Now if anyone was to see this bird they would say he is a red check,but in fact he is not.You must understand that indigo is a modifier that effects color,the parents of this bird are blue checks carring the indigo factor.I hope to learn how to post pictures so that I will be able to show you all some of the things that I speak of,GENETICS is a fascinating subject I would hope that some of you would would study this subject.. .GEORGE


I finally have it figured out for the pics anyway. Photobucket is free (so far) and you can load as many pics as you want. Getting them here, you just have to click on the correct icon which gives the proper code. If I can do it, you can do it.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Let's see them*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Sadly the picture of that young bird, is a few years old. The poor little guy got attacked before I could ever get another picture of him. I always hated it when my 'special' colored birds died. I would have loved to see him when he moulted out
> I've turned out some interesting colors so far this year that I need to take pictures of, including one in the nest that appears to be a yellow grizzle, and another that almost looks like the YB I posted.


As you can see, there are a few genetic nuts here. Can we apply for a genetics forum within this site?

Bill


----------



## re lee

jbangelfish said:


> As you can see, there are a few genetic nuts here. Can we apply for a genetics forum within this site?
> 
> Bill


 ON the show bird forum would be a good place to post genetic subjects. As many show birds are color piared and color modified. And several concept threads could deal with the color genes of the different colors. Suire on any section threads can be posted But it would be easy to develop the show section more As it has slowed much and needs a little more support anyways. One thing about color is ANY color used for quality can always be brought back color. THat is where some fail. They get the color but fail on quality Because they lock the color. So both have to remain the constant color times quality
And nver be afraid to out cross color for quality


----------



## jbangelfish

*I agree*



re lee said:


> ON the show bird forum would be a good place to post genetic subjects. As many show birds are color piared and color modified. And several concept threads could deal with the color genes of the different colors. Suire on any section threads can be posted But it would be easy to develop the show section more As it has slowed much and needs a little more support anyways. One thing about color is ANY color used for quality can always be brought back color. THat is where some fail. They get the color but fail on quality Because they lock the color. So both have to remain the constant color times quality
> And nver be afraid to out cross color for quality


But there isn't much activity there and the color and genetics questions are often showing up in the homer forum as there are so many racers.

I'd still like to see a genetics forum.

Bill


----------



## onecoolmama

*Sorry to butt in here...*

Hi Guys, I just joined 45 min ago and I dont know how to start a new post, so I just butted into your thread hoping someone will tell me how to do it I know NOTHING about pigeons, but we just got one and I've got lots of questions! Thanks in advance.


----------



## jbangelfish

*How about found a pigeon now what*



onecoolmama said:


> Hi Guys, I just joined 45 min ago and I dont know how to start a new post, so I just butted into your thread hoping someone will tell me how to do it I know NOTHING about pigeons, but we just got one and I've got lots of questions! Thanks in advance.


It's a good place to start. Lots of help here.

Bill


----------



## george simon

I think that a GENETICS FORUM is a great idea and the place to put it would between the Show Forum and the Racing Forum. .GEORGE


----------



## DynaBMan

*Finally, some pictures*

First of all, I second or third the motion of a genetics forum. That would really be interesting.

Secondly, the pictures didn't turn out as good as I wanted, but I had a certain Labrador/Saint Bernard cross puppy that already weighs in at over 50 pounds trying his best to get my attention. You can at least see what the babies are starting to look like. This post is of the two little red birds. It looks as if I am going to have a red-check and possibly an ash red-bar.


----------



## DynaBMan

*Baby grizzles*

Okay, here are the pictures of the baby grizzles. At this point, there is no telling what they are going to look like. They are the original subject of this thread.


----------



## jbangelfish

*Two ash reds*



DynaBMan said:


> First of all, I second or third the motion of a genetics forum. That would really be interesting.
> 
> Secondly, the pictures didn't turn out as good as I wanted, but I had a certain Labrador/Saint Bernard cross puppy that already weighs in at over 50 pounds trying his best to get my attention. You can at least see what the babies are starting to look like. This post is of the two little red birds. It looks as if I am going to have a red-check and possibly an ash red-bar.


One is silver red bar and the other red check or checker. This is what you get from ash red dad (as long as he isn't split for blue or dilute) and blue mom. One may also be pied but I think mom had some white.

Bill

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Looks like stork and pied*



DynaBMan said:


> Okay, here are the pictures of the baby grizzles. At this point, there is no telling what they are going to look like. They are the original subject of this thread.


Didn't I say that somewhere? If mom is pure blue bar with no white, I think dad has to be pied and stork. George may jump in here and fix this up as well. Wait a minute, stork doesn't show up unless we have grizzle times two. Hmmm....where did that egg come from?

Bill

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Let's go George*



george simon said:


> I think that a GENETICS FORUM is a great idea and the place to put it would between the Show Forum and the Racing Forum. .GEORGE


I'm serious, let's check into it.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*oops, both are pied*



DynaBMan said:


> First of all, I second or third the motion of a genetics forum. That would really be interesting.
> 
> Secondly, the pictures didn't turn out as good as I wanted, but I had a certain Labrador/Saint Bernard cross puppy that already weighs in at over 50 pounds trying his best to get my attention. You can at least see what the babies are starting to look like. This post is of the two little red birds. It looks as if I am going to have a red-check and possibly an ash red-bar.


I missed the white flights on one of them. This is piebald.

Bill


----------



## DynaBMan

So, is the silver red bar considered to be the same color as my ash red bar that I posted a link to earlier? That would be Jessie.

http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/jessie21/


----------



## Pigeon0446

What color would you guy's consider this bird. I call it a grizzle but IDK he's not like anything I've ever seen besides his brother.










Below are pics of his father the almost white one that I call a Dun Grizzle because of his spots. They were more of a dun color when he was young. And his mother the BC, she's out of a velvet/darkchecker and a yellow checker who's grand father is the Dun Grizzle. The lil one I called a mealy in a post a few days ago is also baby out of this pair. And they also raised me a baby silver with a frill last year. I just love this pair as one is a winner and the other came in 2nd. And they raise me oddballs all the time and it's cool becasue you never know what your gonna get.









From the way he looks and the way he raises his babies you'd never think he's 12 years old. 










Below is another baby out of this pair which is a slate.


----------



## Lovebirds

DynaBMan said:


> So, is the silver red bar considered to be the same color as my ash red bar that I posted a link to earlier? That would be Jessie.
> 
> http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/jessie21/


yes.........


----------



## Lovebirds

I would call it a grizzled slate..........LOL or just slate or just grizzled or grizzled slate white flight.  He's pretty. So, you could just call him pretty.


----------



## ohiogsp

Ok what is this? 









And this one here was not bred for color either. This is what happened with this one. I had a pair of red bars and they had one white baby. They also had other normal red babies. Well I had the white one and a red both from this one pair. They were both in one of my flight lofts. They were last years birds. A few months ago I see the white one sitting a egg. So, I watched to see what cock bird it was with and it was the red brother of this hen. It was time to bred yb's for this year so I waited and this is the bird that came out of the egg.


----------



## jbangelfish

*Grizzle and pied?*



Pigeon0446 said:


> What color would you guy's consider this bird. I call it a grizzle but IDK he's not like anything I've ever seen besides his brother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below are pics of his father the almost white one that I call a Dun Grizzle because of his spots. They were more of a dun color when he was young. And his mother the BC, she's out of a velvet/darkchecker and a yellow checker who's grand father is the Dun Grizzle. The lil one I called a mealy in a post a few days ago is also baby out of this pair. And they also raised me a baby silver with a frill last year. I just love this pair as one is a winner and the other came in 2nd. And they raise me oddballs all the time and it's cool becasue you never know what your gonna get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the way he looks and the way he raises his babies you'd never think he's 12 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is another baby out of this pair which is a slate.


The colors themselves look to have some other modifier and looks to be indigo or something similar. George has some and will know. Random white feathers are some form of pied which can come from a few different genes. Feathers that have both white and color usually means grizzle.

As someone said, the ash red bar is what is commonly known as silver red bar. The checkers are the same and are only different in wing pattern. Checker is the top, it can carry bar and they can both carry barless. The color factor remains the same.

Bill


----------



## jbangelfish

*Looks like a Deroy Almond to me*



ohiogsp said:


> Ok what is this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this one here was not bred for color either. This is what happened with this one. I had a pair of red bars and they had one white baby. They also had other normal red babies. Well I had the white one and a red both from this one pair. They were both in one of my flight lofts. They were last years birds. A few months ago I see the white one sitting a egg. So, I watched to see what cock bird it was with and it was the red brother of this hen. It was time to bred yb's for this year so I waited and this is the bird that came out of the egg.



But I can't be sure. The bottom bird is creme bar which is the same as silver red bar only dilute. Ash yellow is another name for it or yellow bar.

Bill


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## re lee

! st red velvet 2nd cream bar. Now some might say bronze. But the tail and flights give to red velvet. Not ash as ash would be grayer tail and flights.


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## george simon

I like seeing pictures being posted but I will say this I think it would be better if only 1 or 2 were posted at a time, this way we can talk about those without confusing others. When posting 5 or 6 I am sure that there those that may think that we are talking about one of the others. BIRD #1 IS a red velvet looks like a cock carring a second color blue/black you can see the black flecking in the wing shield BIRD #2 is a cream bar some might call it a yellow bar this bird is a dilute red. Ihave some things to do so I will stop for now. ..GEORGE


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## jbangelfish

*Good idea*



george simon said:


> I like seeing pictures being posted but I will say this I think it would be better if only 1 or 2 were posted at a time, this way we can talk about those without confusing others. When posting 5 or 6 I am sure that there those that may think that we are talking about one of the others. BIRD #1 IS a red velvet looks like a cock carring a second color blue/black you can see the black flecking in the wing shield BIRD #2 is a cream bar some might call it a yellow bar this bird is a dilute red. Ihave some things to do so I will stop for now. ..GEORGE


One or two at a time please. Two votes for red velvet on the one, I'm sure they are right. 

George, what do you say about the dark feathers and marks? I agree that there is something else there. Very dark but would it be brown? These markings made me think of almond but I'm sure you guys are right.

Bill


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## Pigeon0446

Lovebirds said:


> I would call it a grizzled slate..........LOL or just slate or just grizzled or grizzled slate white flight.  He's pretty. So, you could just call him pretty.


Yeah I call it a slate grizzle but I guess you could call him a slate splash or slate white flight. And I know he's a good looking bird thats why I posted his pic I figured sombody would like him. But I can't call him pretty becasue he's a cock I'd go with handsome. Just like me.  LoL












george simon said:


> I like seeing pictures being posted but I will say this I think it would be better if only 1 or 2 were posted at a time, this way we can talk about those without confusing others. When posting 5 or 6 I am sure that there those that may think that we are talking about one of the others. BIRD #1 IS a red velvet looks like a cock carring a second color blue/black you can see the black flecking in the wing shield BIRD #2 is a cream bar some might call it a yellow bar this bird is a dilute red. Ihave some things to do so I will stop for now. ..GEORGE





jbangelfish said:


> One or two at a time please. Two votes for red velvet on the one, I'm sure they are right.
> 
> George, what do you say about the dark feathers and marks? I agree that there is something else there. Very dark but would it be brown? These markings made me think of almond but I'm sure you guys are right.
> 
> Bill


I was only asking about the pigeon in the first pic of my post. The other pics were of his parents and one of his sisters so ppl could see what the bird came from so you can see a lil of it's background. But if ppl are using photobucket to post pics or some other site to upload the pics you can do like I did in this post, just hit the quote button and copy and paste the link of the photo of the specific bird your talking about if you think ppl are going to get confused as to which bird your talking about. But just not to confuse anybody I'll only post one pic at a time and if I do post more then one I'll try to plainly mark which birds I'm talking about and why I posted thier pics like I tried to do in the post with 4 pics I posted earlier. I guess I just have to do a better job.


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## Guest

I like to keep it simple so I just consider that a grizzle and a mighty handsome grizzle at that .. but then Im very partial to the grizzles myself lol and that other red of ohios is more like a bronzy ressesive red to me but dont quote me on that  awesome colors thats for sure but as we all know they come in a rainbow of awesome colors and you never know whats gonna pop up in your nest box next  thanks for sharing


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## george simon

HI PIGEON0446, I now see that you posted the grizzle and his parents. The red velvet and the cream bar were posted by ohiogsp.I will try to answer you first, grizzle is not a color but instead it is a modifier what this means is the grizzle modifier is hiding the true color of the bird.from what you have said I would say that this cock is hiding red. All cocks carry two color genes in this case he could be carring red and blue or red and red so from this bird you could get red or blue/black young and also grizzle. I will stop now if you have any questions just ask and I will try to answer your question and I am sure the BILL will also. .GEORGE


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## jbangelfish

*George, how do we explain the flecks?*

Seems to me this bird is a hen, if so it may have something different to it. What are the brown flecks doing on a hen?

Bill


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## DynaBMan

*Pictures coming soon*

The two youngsters in discussion in this thread are now up to a good size and it is very clear what they are going to look like. One is white with blue bar wings, a black spot on his forhead and on the back of it's head. It also has a black tail with a single white feather right in the middle.

It's nest mate is white with a blackish tail and what looks like bronze or brown grizzle markings on it's chest and neck. I have a few pictures, but have been having trouble getting my camera to connect to my computer. Hopefully, this evening or Friday, I will have some clear pictures up to show you folks what the look like. They are very unusual, to say the least.


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## DynaBMan

*Here are the pictures, finally*

Okay, I finally managed to get some pictures of the youngsters in question and get them transferred to my computer. There are more of the one than the other, simply because the little fella is very hard to catch still long enough to get a good shot. They are very unusual, like I said.


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## Lovebirds

That one little guy is what's called a Blue Bar Saddle, although it's considered "mismarked" because of the white at the top of the wings. Don't worry though, it's just "mismarked" as far as showing goes. ALL of my saddles look like that cause I race em'.........I don't show em' so I don't care.  The other on is a grizzle or a stork marked maybe. I had never heard the term stork until a few days ago. I thought storks were those big long legged birds that deliver babies!! 
Anyway............those are two pretty little birds.


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## DynaBMan

Lovebirds said:


> That one little guy is what's called a Blue Bar Saddle, although it's considered "mismarked" because of the white at the top of the wings. Don't worry though, it's just "mismarked" as far as showing goes. ALL of my saddles look like that cause I race em'.........I don't show em' so I don't care.  The other on is a grizzle or a stork marked maybe. I had never heard the term stork until a few days ago. I thought storks were those big long legged birds that deliver babies!!
> Anyway............those are two pretty little birds.


I like them because they are a little unusual. Sometimes, I wish I had time to get into racing them, but I simply don't have the time. I have thought about joining the local AU club next year and buying the bands. They said they were going to have a one loft race and that would allow me to see how my birds would compete against the others. Not sure if I am going to do that or not.

As for the term "stork", give me a little bit and I am going to have a post up about my two white birds I have just acquired. It was a little surprising where they came from.


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## Guest

I love your babies  they will always stand out in the flock and some how find a way into your heart just cuz they are a little different from the rest .. even if they dint perform as good as the rest they sure are a sight to see


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## MoonPrist

Guest said:


> I love your babies  they will always stand out in the flock and some how find a way into your heart just cuz they are a little different from the rest .. even if they dint perform as good as the rest they sure are a sight to see
> [/ЦИТИРОВАТЬ]
> 
> Geese and swans?


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