# A few questions I have about a baby pidgeon I found



## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

When I was outside today I found a pigeon near the side of the road. It was lying on the side of it's head which I found quite odd and was alone so I brought it home since I thought it might be hurt or something. My mother who has had pigeons before said that it looks to be around four weeks old but she couldn't really help much after that so there are a few questions I have that I couldn't find in the previous threads. 
The first thing I noticed about the pigeon was that it always has it's head sideways. Could someone describe or even show me how a pigeons neck is supposed to be?I've never had a baby bird before, let alone a pigeon, so I'm not sure exactly how they are supposed to look and couldn't find a picture online. 
Also I was told to feed and water it around every 4 to 5 hours but it seems to sleep a lot. Every now and then it will start rubbing it's beak on my fingers wanting food, and then after I give it only a tiny bit it wants to go back to sleep before I can feed it more. Is that okay, or should I be waking it up to feed it more? 
My mother told me to put some soft clothes in a shoe box for it to sleep on when not in my lap but it doesn't seem to sleep as well when it's in there. It sleeps much easier when I have it in my lap, curled half way in the bottem of my shirt. I thought it might be because that's how I had it for half an hour when I was trying to get home after finding it, but is there some other reason for it sleeping/being more comfortable in my lap?
The last question I have for now is a food question. I've read what you guys have said about formulas and mixtures for their food but I'm unable to get anything right now. For the time I've had it today I've been giving it some bread and oatmeal. My father said that it could die from that, mind you he doesn't really know anything about animals, but I just want to make sure nothing happens to it. Is there something else I could feed it that most people usually have in their house, till I'm able to go to the store?

Sorry about all my questions, especially if they've already been asked. I looked in other threads to first see what I could learn there, but couldn't find the answer to these questions.
Thank you =]


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13601

Here's a place to start to help the little guy out.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The baby could be a bit dehydrated, no telling how long it was grounded before you found it. Is it possible that you could post some pictures of the baby??
I'm sure that the bird is happier being in the lap of a living thing and especially that person that picked them up and saved them from an unpleasant at the
least situation. They do also like small safe areas as your Mom suggested as
well. Right now, what ever works that is safe for all of you. Kippy gave you a good link to let started with, here's a link to the Resource section in general that has alot of good information in general and specifically for babies:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Thanks for helping out this little one, it may not have made it w/out
your help.

fp


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## vegeta2802 (Sep 24, 2006)

here is some pic of one of my baby pigeon as it gets older.
so you can see the way it has its neck.
http://pets.webshots.com/album/558161592YrCXcE?start=0
as it gets older it keeps is head up better but....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Fiery Rose, 


Yes, keep him on your Lap all you can, since he seems to like it and possibly it is warming for him also...

You can set up an electric Heating Pad under his Shoe-Box-with-Soft-Cloths in it and test the inside to see it is warm but not too warm...he will appreciate being in a warmth which is about like our own Body core temperature.



Are there any poops yet? if so, please describe them color and consistancy and size wise...


If he is 'nuzzling' your fingers to be fed, you can gently guide his Beak into a little full glass or cup of tepid Water. Make sure the water is close to body temp...and in fact, to a little glass or cup of such Water, go ahead and dissolve a good pinch of common Table Salt, and one of white Sugar, and let him drink that.

Just gently guide his Beak into it while holding it to about his chest level...and keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak as he drinks...if he is very anxious to drink, just let him drink for a second or two, then get his head out of it...pause a few moments, and let him drink again for a second or two.


Young Pigeons do not know how to eat or drink on their own, and if seperated from their parents, they can dehydrate and starve.


Can you post some Images of him for us to see? It would help...


More later, I will come back to your thread again in a little while...

No bread or cooked Oats...but do get some rehydration ( as explained above, ) into him now, and we can talk about formula in a little while...

Post some images if you can...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you so much guys =]
Okay it has pooped two times in the three hours I've had it. All three times it was liquidy like most bird poop I've seen. One of the times though it was a dark green, the other two times white. The size is kind of hard to tell since it is liquidy, I'd say around the size of 3 drops maybe of those eyedroppers.

The neck of the pigeon looks very different I'd say, and I noticed that when I put it down on the floor it seemed to put it's head on the floor the whole time. When I had shown my mother how it tilted it's head when I was at home, she had felt it's neck and everything without it making any noises so I don't think it's hurt. Could it have maybe been kicked out of it's nest from this problem? I have pictures that I'll put at the bottem.

Thanks for the information on how to give it water. Before I found this place, I had been using a eyedropper kind of thing and doing it the way you'd feed a baby sugarglider.
I've put away the bread I had gave it earlier and the oatmeal I planned to, but really not sure exactly what to feed it for now if it gets hungry.

For the pictures it's eyes weren't open except for one which even then they weren't open all the way. I sort of was weary about that worrying that the flash might hurt it's eyes. I can get pictures with it's eyes open if you need them though the pictures will just be blurry without the flash.




























Also I just noticed after awhile of this being posted and it laying in my lap, it's got a tiny bit of liquid that came from it's nose I think? It looks like a clear like maybe stickyish liquid or something. I wiped it off on my shirt softly and it reminds me kind of like a boogery substance. Another thing is when he looks to be sleeping right now, he has made a few noises that sound like a humans snore. Is that like a breathing problem or something?


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## stach_n_flash (Mar 15, 2006)

Very sad. Im sorry I cant be much help but it looks as though he was hit by a car or something, if he was able to fly. He is very cute though. I hope he pulls through


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Hi Fiery Rose,
I can't be of much help either, but I've pm'ed a couple of members who are still on line that may be able to offer some advice. I hope the little one makes it.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Fieryrose and welcome! Bless you for helping this young pigeon. I'm not going to kid you or sugarcoat things .. I think your little one is probably terminal. Still, we can try. If you do not yet have it on a heating pad set on low on under a low wattage bulb (40-60 watts), please do that to provide supplemental heat. 

The liquid discharge from the nostrils or mouth is not a good sign nor is the lack of ability to hold the head/neck up. The other not good sign is the bareness under the beak and lower part of the head. Please gently open the mouth and have a look inside. If you see any cheesy looking growths, we need to know about it, and those need to be treated immediately. For that to happen, we need to know where you are located in case we have a member with the necessary meds nearby.

Lets worry about getting the bird warm first and take it from there. 

In a pinch the oatmeal will do, but first the bird needs to be warm and hydrated. Hydrated means some water with sugar and salt added. Let's do that first and see what happens.

Truly, from the looks of the little pigeon, I am not optimistic, but pigeons are incredibly tough birds and incredible survivors .. so let's start the process and hope for a good outcome. I may not be able to stay with you all night on this, but others will be along.

To recap .. warm and hydrated first .. then worry about food.

Terry


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you guys for being honest. 
I finally found a heating pad awhile ago and am using it right now. I checked inside and I do not see anything like that in there.
I had given it a lot of water earlier around now 10 hours ago, but it was plain water. I have given it normal water throughout these hours whenever it's seemed to want some. I still have had to do it with an eyedropper because with it's neck like that it makes it quite difficult to try to do it the other way. I haven't been able to give it much water with sugar and salt though because it keeps getting free when I try to hold it's beak. It had been wanting food or water like an hour ago and I tried to feed it but only managed to give it a tiny ball or two of oatmeal because it kept getting it's beak free by pushing it's head back and I can't hold the head still and open the beak at the same time. =/


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Burrito-ing the bird consists of wrapping a hand towel around the body of the bird, especially over the wings/shoulders so that the wings themselves are immobilized. I use either a hand towel, dish towel or even a pillow case folded
lengthwise and wrapped snuggly enough to immobilize without any restriction
of breathing. Try this and see if it you can manage this way.
If you have already given the hydrating solution, you can try some 
chicken broth or Gerber's chicken and rice puree watered down a bit so 
that you can use the dropper.

I've pm-ed someone who lives in Connecticutt on the forum w/this thread
information to see if they are close by.

fp


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you so much.
Sadly I don't have any Gerber's stuff. I actually had some at home for other animals but I went to my grans because I'd be able to stay up there to look after this one. I was able to give it another small ball of oatmeal and then a bit of water because it suddenly got up and was wanting some. After just that though it went back to sleep. =/
Thank you for pming them =]]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

FieryRose said:


> Thank you guys for being honest.
> * *I finally found a heating pad awhile ago and am using it right now.*
> 
> ** *I haven't been able to give it much water with sugar and salt though because it keeps getting free when I try to hold it's beak*.


Welcome to Pigeon-Talk & many thanks for taking this poor baby under your wing.  
He does appear to be quite young as it looks like he still has quite a few little yellow pin feathers

* The heating pad will help regain & maintain his normal body temperature.

** You can continue to administer the electrolyte solution (to a cup of room temperature water add a *pinch* each of salt & sugar) with the eye dropper by placing a *couple drops* at a time alongside his beak. Considering the condition he appears to be in, be very careful when administering any fluids or food. 

Hopefully the supplement heat along with the electrolyte solution will give him a bit of a boost. 

Please keep us posted. Sending special thoughts that this little one makes a turn around. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FieryRose, 


I get them like this sometimes and usually I manage to pull them through, and could be you can too.

They can get like this from simple privation, and they can have serious co-ordination and head lifting issues with it.


The rehydration is crucial, and by all means, dissolve a good pinch of common table Salt, and a pinch of Sugar, into a small glass of Water...warm it in a pan of mildly hot tap Water so it is tepid merely, and guide his Beak into it.

Do not use 'hot' tap Water for his drinking or formula. Always use 'cold' and for that matter, let it run a few minutes first.


"Burrito Bird"...try and have his Legs out straight against his Tail when you gently wrap him...tuck him in vertically between your knees or thighs as you sit, so his body is actually above where you are gripping him that way, having the cloth large enough for the extra to be the part you grip. If a suare cloth, fold one corner in three or four inches, and that goes around his neck area with therest below...make sure not to have any pressure against his Crop, which is his front area.


Steady his Head or have an assistant steady it for you so his Neck is at least somewhat extended and not pulled 'in', hold the tepid Salt-Sugar Water up to about his chest high, and gently guide his Beak into it for him to drink...tilting the small Cup or Glass toward him...they drink 'Like Horses'...


Food Wise...if you have any plain "Malto Meal'...and or plain 'Graham Crackers' and or 'Ritz Crackers' you can roll between sheets of paper to make powder, add these together and to them add enough Water to make a soupy mix...warm it also in a Tea Cup or small Glass in a pan of hot Water, so the formula is about body temperature.



If you have one of those small Coffee Grinders with the clear plastic cup top...you can use it to make powder out of some plain old fashioned Graham and or Ritz Crackers.


If you have any whole grains, such as whole Oats, Wheat, Barley, Corn ( plain old fashioned Pop Corn is fine) or other, you can add some of those in the little grinder and make powder of them also...if all you have is regular 'Quaker Oats', you can add some of that and make powder out of it also.

The powdered ingredients then for the formula, are mixed dry in a small cup or something...add cool good Water, enough to cover them plus a little more...warm in a Pan of Hot Water while stirring so all is about body temperature...just make a small batch for now...a few tablespoons worth is fine.


If you have any soft rubber Baby Nipples around, cut off the mounting flange which normally would make the seal to a Baby Bottle...and you can feed him by guiding his Beak into the hollow side of the Nipple, JUST the Nipple, no 'bottle', into which Hollow Side of course you have put some 'formula'...fill about 7/8ths full...this is how I do it.

If you have no soft Rubber Baby Nipples, you can try useing a Shot Glass, and you will need to keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak as he eats, or he will not eat...

Similarly with the Nipple, you must gently squeeze it so he feels it against the sides of his Beak, especially at the hinge area or corners of his Mouth...


Normally they eat by inserting their beak into the Throat of their parent...so they need to 'feel' something similar or they will not eat or drink usually.


Let him eat for four or five seconds, then withdraw the Nipple, let him catch his breath, add more formula to the Nipple then, then repeat, refilling as needed. If he will eat presently, let him have the equivelent of three or four nipple's full for now...and repeat in four or five hours.

If you have any ( ideally, 'Raw' ) Apple Cider Vinegar handy, add a few drops to his small formula batch which you will have mixed up...


Here is a link to some images of the 'Nipples' and how one uses them.


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/baby_dove_-_july/


Good luck...!


You can hold him all you like, comforting him and keeping him hand-warm, and he would like that...

He has been through Hell...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

FR, the name of the member I pm-ed is Cricket....not sure how close to you 
this member is but hopefully close enough.

Cindy is correct about using great caution administering fluids to the
bird while in this condition. It's surprising how they will do it, but they
do swallow fluids just from placing a couple of drops alongside the beak.
Just go slowly and watch for the bird's swallowing. They also can go
for quite a while just on the combo of the sugar and salt in the water.

fp


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you guys so much. You guys are like amazing.
I keeps going back and forth from sleeping and nuzzling for food/water. It actually drunk a decent amount of water with salt/sugar before I started replying to this and is now going back to sleep.
I keep worrying about the heating pad though..How can you tell if it's too hot? I'm betting it's not getting enough heat right now because I'm worrying so much about it. I've only ever used it one other time with an animal and they ended up dying the next day. =/


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

By placing your hand there and checking for yourself. I like using old articles
of down clothing like down vests or hoods or jackets because it's a pretty
good facsimile of what the parents provide.

Another way of moderating the temp of a heating pad is by placing it underneath the box w/a towel or couple of layers of towel in the box.

But basically check w/your hand, you don't want it to be too warm for the 
bird. This bird looks as though it would have a bit of a time moving off of
the heating pad in the event that the heat supplied was too warm for the
bird.

fp


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you very much. =] It seems to be doing better than it was awhile ago. I had to get up to get the crackers, salt, and all the other stuff and so had put a towel underneath the heating pad so I could position it like it was on my lap so it wouldn't notice..but when I got back and tried to put it back it woke up but this time actually lifted it's head. Mind you it was still sideways, but was lifting it for awhile before finding a spot to lay down again. =]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

FieryRose said:


> Thank you guys so much. You guys are like amazing.
> I keeps going back and forth from sleeping and nuzzling for food/water. It actually drunk a decent amount of water with salt/sugar before I started replying to this and is now going back to sleep.
> 
> *I keep worrying about the heating pad though..How can you tell if it's too hot? I'm betting it's not getting enough heat right now because I'm worrying so much about it.*
> ...


I always start off with the heating pad set on low. You just need a little extra warmth, but not too hot, especially since his head rests on the ground *&* if he is unable to move off of it without difficulty. I also place a little towel (small dish towel or even a wash cloth) over the heating pad. 

Actually, in this particular case, it might be better to place him under a low wattage lamp. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> FR, the name of the member I pm-ed is Cricket....not sure how close to you
> this member is but hopefully close enough.
> 
> Cindy is correct about using great caution administering fluids to the
> ...



Yes, good mention fp...

I recently lost one because while he was drinking some formula, he aspirated ( got some into his Lungs) and it did him in by the next day.


Mine was very very rubber-necked and wildly un-co-ordinated...and I felt very bad I had not insisted to myself to use the 'tube' instead.


Ideally, one would use a correct tube or lavage needle ( which is not a 'Needle' at all ) to adminster fluids and formula in small amounts directly into the Crop of so weak or un-co-ordinated a Bird...


Usually this recourse is not reasonably within reach of a first time care giver.

The 'eye dropper' is dangerous somewhat, but most people seem to get away with it...butt he danger is of course, of Water of formula getting into the Bird's trachea, and sometimes spazzy or un-co-ordinated or very weak Birds may have a poor ability to co-ordinate the opening and closing of their Trechea while getting fluids or liuid foods put into their Beak however so.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Mkay thanks =] I'll see if I can find a lamp in this house. Not sure if there are any though. I have like a towel and two shirts on top of the heating pad on low..I'd say it's still too hot though when it goes through, so a lamp might be better.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just make sure the lamp is secure and won't fall onto the baby. If you do have
the down, it does work great. I've used that for several years, but the biggest
success was w/a recent rescue of around 3 dozen babies. It just seemed to regulate w/ease. Though, any of these options have proved successful in lifesaving for babies and sick and injured birds.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

FieryRose said:


> Thank you guys so much. You guys are like amazing.
> I keeps going back and forth from sleeping and nuzzling for food/water. It actually drunk a decent amount of water with salt/sugar before I started replying to this and is now going back to sleep.
> I keep worrying about the heating pad though..How can you tell if it's too hot? I'm betting it's not getting enough heat right now because I'm worrying so much about it. I've only ever used it one other time with an animal and they ended up dying the next day. =/




Hi FR, 

If it is cool where you are, or the home is Air Conditioned...you want the actual intimate actual physical place the Bird will be, to be 'wrist' warm...

If the bird is to be in a Box with soft cloths in it, then press the underside of your wrist into the cloths...and if it feels like no temperature at all, it is about right...


If too hot, then just add a layer of towell or somehting betwen the Heating pad and the Box Bottom, or if the pad is to be IN the box, then betaeen the pad and the subsequent cloths.


if too cool, turn the pad setting up a notch, and or reduce the intermediate cloths or other layers.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Wow that's amazing. =]
Sadly I couldn't find a lamp at the moment. =/ My gran went through a cleaning mode and we don't know where anything is now because she decided to put things in boxes that she found of no use. The liquid from it's nose did stop awhile ago and hasn't come back yet also. =]


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FieryRose,



Most youngsters who have suffered serious priovations, soon show evidence of Canker or other common illnesses which evolve from what had been merely normal background organisms of their digestive system.

So, be prepaired tomorrow for possible cues to these eventualitys.

Too, if you have a little Coffee grinder as I mentioned, or even if you do not, go to Petsmart or the likes and get - 


"Nutrical"...find on the puppy/kitten isle, comes in a tube, is a brown 'goo'.


Small whole Seeds, such as finch Seed or Canary Seed...get say a five pound bag or something.

Get a small container of "LeFabers' or "Kay T" or kindred Baby Bird Food powder.




Health Food Store -


Get a small package of 'Goji Berrys' and also a small Bottle of Goji Juice...get some powdered Purple Dulce if they sell bulk stuff, and some 'Chlorella', an ounce of each would do.


Get a small Bottle also of "Braggs", Raw Apple Cider Vinegar...


Let us know your location in case there are any near members...you might end up needing some Anti-Canker meds, or other meds which can be tough to get on short notice unless you have a Pigeon Supply place close by.


I will tell you about how to use and prepair these soon as you have them.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Might have just been Water form the eye-Dropper sessions...


Phil
l v


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Ooh thank you very much!
It keeps waking up and I have to like struggle still to give it water because I've not gotten totally used to it..Halfway through this it decides it wants to go back to sleep. Should I just let it sleep or keep trying to give it the water if it does that tomorrow? 
It wasn't water from the eye dropper, I had made sure it was dry on it's beak after the water. And I saw it slowly come out after noticing.
I live in Uncasville, Connecticut btw =]


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FR, 




You need to be giving him re-hydration-solution, not 'Water'.

A practical extempore rehydration solution may be made by dissolving a good Pinch of common Table Salt, and one of regular white Sugar into a small Tea Cup or Glass of Water.

Make the Solution "tepid" by warming it as iot is IN a Tea Cup or small Glass, and having that in a pan of warm Water for a few moments.

If it is not "tepid" he will not drink it.


You can gently guide his Beak while supporting him or while having an assistant support him ( please see prior mentions in the thread here) for him to drink or sip...let him drink only a few seconds at a time, then make him pause by getting his head/Beak out of it...then let him drink again for a couple seconds...

Keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak up by the corners of his mouth, or he will not drink...


For tonight, just rehydrating him will suffice...and food/formula can wait till tomorrow...it takes some hours to initially rehydrate them anyway, enough for them to try eating a little...so this is fine...


If he wakes up and wants to have more regydration solution, please do allow him another round.


Come morning there should be some poops of some kind, or some urates anyway, as his system starts going again...





Phil
Las Vegas


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Hi FieryRose,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My mother wants to know what you'd do with that stuff..Like how you'd use it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi FieryRose,

I don't know if you are still sitting there behind that green light of yours, but
if you are, how is your patient doing this morning??

I think you'll find that different folks have different regimines for nutrition and supplements where feeding and caring for babies and other sick and injured 
birds are concerned and Phil was introducing you to some of his methodologies.
The Resource section has several others as well that may be used also. Some
things like the IRS (International Rehydrating Solution) and stabilizing a sick or injured bird are standard.

Is your friend showing any improvement this morning?

fp


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Yes he/she is! It's still not wanting to be by itself for the most part still but it's lifting it's head a lot more, drinking more, and even making more birdy noises! =] When I took it out today and put it on the bed it was moving a lotmore and could hold up it's head more, though it still ends up putting it down when standing still for a bit. My parents are bringing it to a petfood store near hear because there is someone that works there that my mother remembered has helped pigeons like this a lot so she'll be able to help us with what we need if she's there today. I'm also going to be going back home for awhile till I can feed it without having problems since if I'm at home I can always get my mother to do it if I really need to. I've been able to get the drinking thing down pretty well and it's gotten a decent amount of water this morning. =]
Thank you for the information I'll make sure to check. 

Thank you all for helping. You all have been so amazing, I couldn't have helped it much without you guys being there. =]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Might have just been Water form the eye-Dropper sessions...
> Phil
> l v





FieryRose said:


> *It wasn't water from the eye dropper*, I had made sure it was dry on it's beak after the water. And I saw it slowly come out after noticing.
> I live in Uncasville, Connecticut btw =]


Given your description of the nasal discharge, which sounds more like mucous, I would have to agree with you that it most likely wasn't just water.

*"it's got a tiny bit of liquid that came from it's nose I think? It looks like a clear like maybe stickyish liquid or something. I wiped it off on my shirt softly and it reminds me kind of like a boogery substance"*

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pet stores that carry bird supplies usually carry one of the better known
baby bird formula powders such as KayTee Exact. It mixes w/warm water from 
the tap (don't microwave as this would create 'hot spots' and burn the baby internally), and there are several ways of feeding the baby that are in the Resource Section in a couple of the "Sticky Threads" there.

If you are uncomfortable w/tube feeding a simple way of providing nutrition that is safe and also gets water into the youngster as well is to use puppy chow. You soak the puppy chow and take little pieces (drained) and push them to the back of the throat allowing the bird to swallow them on their own. Any of the better formulated puppy chows are appropriate though some are made w/vegetables and the ingredients in general might be more nutritions than others. Also, you may find that a pet store could have samples in smaller bags which may also be a good way to go for now. BTW, you are probably hearing the squeaking youngsters/babies frequently make especially around feeding time. 

This first link shows the location of the crop in an adult pigeon, after feeding the baby, you will want that 'sack-like' area in the front to feel squishy and 
not tight:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15842


Here are some links on feeding:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9918

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235


And a link on the day to day developement of the baby pigeon:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9500

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Fiery Rose, 



Thing is, when a youngster ( or adult for that matter, ) has suffered a serious period of privation, various background Organisms, usually benign, can assume dangerous proportions in his system, and their system and their immune system are very run down and weak...their natural defenses are low....


...and, the Bird as he rallies from receiving rehydration and soon after, nourishment...can then also start to show signs of advancing illness/sickness, resulting from the Organisms which got out of wack from his period of starving...and his immune system being depleted or low in reserves and ability to ward off dangerous Organisms.


The Apple Cider Vinegar discourages replications or advances of undesirable Organisms, while encouraging desirable ones...among other benefits.



If any chaulky 'yellow' Urates start appearing, he will need almost certainly medicine which addresses 'Canker' or some Antitrichomonal regimen anyway, and these medicines are specific to this kind of illness.


Goji-Berrys or their Juice are very high in anti-oxidants and natural Vitamines and mild natural Sugars, and are simply very nutritious and benificial in a general way to help his system recover and to specifically nourish his immune system.


Similarly with the 'Nutrical'...which is very easily digested and contains enzymes and vitamines helpful to his digestive system and is all round benificial as well.


And for a mere couple of bucks in the bulk isle of any half decent Health food Store, an Ounce or two of some powdered Chlorella and powdered Purple Dulce, in their way provide important minerals and vitamines and elements which are highly nutritious and benificial to his erstwhile deprived and run down system, and will aid in his recovery.



Best wishes, 


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

This is Fiery's mom-to clarify what she had said previously regarding any experience I have had with pigeons-it was years ago.My exstepfather used to race them and when a female of his got nabbed by a hawk and none of the other pigeons would take the babies (which were older semi feathered ones) I was allowed to play mommy to them.It's been a really long time since I've had any or been near any to be truthful but I remember some of the basics.

Anyhow-he's got no signs or croup at the moment-the insides of his mouth are a nice pink colour and he's been rather perky today-standing up a bit and holding his head properly at times though he seems to like to hold it at that awkward angle seen in the pictures.I've syringe fed him a few times-some babyfood-the rice cereal that is fortified with vitamins etc and he takes it well enough but it's hard to do with him because of how he'd rather hold his head etc.



feralpigeon said:


> If you are uncomfortable w/tube feeding a simple way of providing nutrition that is safe and also gets water into the youngster as well is to use puppy chow. You soak the puppy chow and take little pieces (drained) and push them to the back of the throat allowing the bird to swallow them on their own. Any of the better formulated puppy chows are appropriate though some are made w/vegetables and the ingredients in general might be more nutritions than others. Also, you may find that a pet store could have samples in smaller bags which may also be a good way to go for now. BTW, you are probably hearing the squeaking youngsters/babies frequently make especially around feeding time.


I think that I might give this a shot considering the pigeon did very well with taking little balls of moistened bread into his throat and swallowing them on his own-compared to my attempts to feed him via eyedropper or syringe due to how he wants to hold his head etc.I think also that if Fiery wants to be feeding it (she does badly) rather than me that this might be the easier option for her as well.I'll look into picking up some puppy chow tomorrow but tonight he can deal with rice baby cereal and the water/salt/sugar mixture I've been giving him to hydrate him.



pdpbison said:


> Thing is, when a youngster ( or adult for that matter, ) has suffered a serious period of privation, various background Organisms, usually benign, can assume dangerous proportions in his system, and their system and their immune system are very run down and weak...their natural defenses are low....
> 
> 
> ...and, the Bird as he rallies from receiving rehydration and soon after, nourishment...can then also start to show signs of advancing illness/sickness, resulting from the Organisms which got out of wack from his period of starving...and his immune system being depleted or low in reserves and ability to ward off dangerous Organisms.
> ...


Ok what I need to know the most is what to put this into-I am assuming these things for the most part (excluding the cider vinegar) are powder-though they could be liquid-I mean add them to water to get them into the little beasty or what?I'll be sure to make sure that we get them into it's system though-how many times is another thing I need to know regarding it.

Thank you all by the way for helping my daughter out so much-I've raised other wayward beasties-but most other baby birds are SO much easier to feed than pigeon babies are.I'm just glad I've fed them before or I would be totally lost as to what to do with them.

Thanks for the help-will keep you updated.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hello Uncasville! I am located in Killingworth, Ct and have a pigeon loft. I am a Wildlife Rehabilitator. If you find you need assistance, please contact me at my work number (203) 453-6433 Tuesday thru Saturday. Sounds like you are doing a great job at keeping this little bugger going. Pigeon Talk is a wonderful group of people who cherish their bird friends! You came to the right place! Wishing you continued success!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Loka, I have rehabbed many birds, and dependant on the scenario will use soaked puppy chow as do many rehabbers. Your bird will be fine using that feeding method especially because it is nutritous for the youngster and enables
_your youngster to enjoy nurturing your little rescue._ That's why I suggested it, soaked puppy chow is an accepted method that is also safe and
simple to use. There are some differing opinions as to whether or not it should
be soaked to the point of being slightly soft, but if drained, I think it deals
adequately w/concerns about fluids dropping from the piece of kibble. It
will also provide food and hydration simutaneously.

Further, until you are more certain of what is happening w/your rescue's head
tilt, it's probably a good idea not to leave a bowl of water in the carrier or cage/box that is being temporary home for the pij.

Please do give a call to Cricket our resident Connecticutt rehabber just to 
get aquainted and I'm also hoping that if the bird needs any medication
that Cricket will be able to 'hook you up'. I'm hoping that you aren't that far
from one another, but I really haven't a clue.

Hope this helps.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Loki said:


> This is Fiery's mom-to clarify what she had said previously regarding any experience I have had with pigeons-it was years ago.My exstepfather used to race them and when a female of his got nabbed by a hawk and none of the other pigeons would take the babies (which were older semi feathered ones) I was allowed to play mommy to them.It's been a really long time since I've had any or been near any to be truthful but I remember some of the basics.
> 
> Anyhow-he's got no signs or croup at the moment-the insides of his mouth are a nice pink colour and he's been rather perky today-standing up a bit and holding his head properly at times though he seems to like to hold it at that awkward angle seen in the pictures.I've syringe fed him a few times-some babyfood-the rice cereal that is fortified with vitamins etc and he takes it well enough but it's hard to do with him because of how he'd rather hold his head etc.
> 
> ...





Hi FR and Loki,


Things can and reliably do....get a lttle confused or out of sequence in these kinds of threads. it is not easy to comunicate all the important reasons why one does this instead of 'that', or even what sequence to do things in.

To review -

1st. - The youngster, in his condition, needs or needed to have at least 12 hours of rehydration...and this meanss with a re-hydration solution, and not 'water'. I have explained the rehydration solution several times, how to make it, how to serve it. Pleas,e if need be, refer to some of the prior mentions so I am not having to be repeating it again in this post.


Ideally, one would tube it directly into his Crop, his Crop being the 'pouch' which is a wide area of his Esophagus, just above his 'Keel' and below some ways of his Throat...in which he stores food and water pending it's passage to his Stomach.


But, tubeing into the Crop directly takes some means and understandings usually not within reach of a first timer.


Hence, another method and one which I have used for a long time, which is to simply guide their Beak into a small Glass or Cup ( a Shot Glass is fine ) which one has filled with a "tepid" re-hydrating solution.

It must be near their own Body Temperature or they typically will refuse TO drink.


And, to keep one's finger tips ON their Beak sides as they drink, and ONLY to let them drink for a second or two at any one time.

You can moisten you finger tips in warm water, and gently massage his Beak to stimulate and to convey TO him your itention to feed or water him, and he might very well tentatively "nuzzle"...in fact, I would recommend you DO so this, and get him 'nuzzleing' before offering supervised rehydration drinking sessions, or later, formula...


Pigeons such as yours, whom I at any rate, take to have suffered prolongued privations, will show wilty dispositions and co-ordination problems and very weak necks...it can be very dangerous to be putting liquids into their Beaks, and for that matter, it can be a little dangerous even for themn to drink normally.

If offering Liquids, have him almost upright ( see prior mentions about 'Burrito Birds' in this thread) and for the Liquid to be offered in a Nipple or Shot Glass at about his Chest hight, and for him to have his Neck mostly extended when he does drink...


However, he desperately needs to be re-hydrated, and in certainly many dozens of occasions similar to yours, I have managed well by doing it as described in my prior posts, and often I use the hollow side of a Baby Nipple with the mounting flange cut off ( see links to images I posted previously in this thread), for them to drink out of, since for one thing it automatically limits the amount and duration they CAN have, for drinking, in any one session.


12 hours or so of re-hydration with a rehydrating solution...

Then, "thin" soupy 'formula'...

Formula details pending, but I did outline ingredients in prior posts.


Then, seeing how the poops are, if any, what is comeing out or starting to come out, after 12 hours or continuous slow rehydration sessions, and usually some old dark poops will come through. Seeing what Urates ( the 'white' part, and if it IS 'white' or 'yellowish'...)


When having suffered starvation and dehydration, their whole digestive system shuts down, everything stops and spoils in there in various ways...what is in their stomach or intestines, and should come out once rehydration is well under way...and their system can also become very weak and feeble for a while as it starts back up once he IS rehydrated.

So right kinds of foods/formula is very important...it is NOT as if one is dealing with a robust normal healthy Squeaker at this point.




If fed too soon, or if fed wrong foods, the food can cause problems because it stays in the Crop or lodges there at the passage to the Stomach, and spoils, ferments, creating toxins and by products, and yet more complications and life threatening troubles.


Bread Balls will kill them even if they did not have any problems already, so please, no more 'bread balls'...

I just spent an hour trying to be clear and plain as possible and most of my post went "poof'' without me meaning for that to happen, and I was able to somehow reclaim this much...

I need to do some other things here, and I will check back later.


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, I'm so glad to see this little one start to improve. Hope it keeps getting better and better.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I, too, am glad to learn that this little one is showing some improvement. It looks like most of the questions from Loki and FieryRose have been well answered. I'll just add that my personal preference would be for Kaytee Exact to be used as the staple diet for the bird, but the soaked puppy chow is a good second choice and is safe and easy to feed.

There is also a very, very good diet posted here called MacMilk, but it requires a lot of ingredients that aren't always easy to come by. There is, however, a great deal of very useful/helpful information about nutrition included with the actual diet that you may want to read. Here's the link: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15236

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi FR and Loki,


If you obtained the list of items and have proceeded to oversee his rehydration, then it is time by now, or was time already half a day ago, to consider some careful feeding.

You were wondering what to do with the things I outlined for you to get or have on hand. To have elaborated more than I did would only have meant more wasted time having to go over it all again now anyway.

Once he has had adequate rehydration...he must not have "solid" foods of any kind, but rather 'Liquid foods" which are made OUT OF in some cases 'solid' ingredients, such as whole, fresh, good quality, wholesome fresh Seeds and various kinds of Berrys such as Goji-Berrys.


The Apple Cider Vinegar...

Take Two Tablespoons of it and add to a Gallon of cool nice Tap Water or other nice Water...do this in a plastic gallon Jug, label it clearly.


This is the 'Water' you will use for his formula mixing...while for his drinking you will use plain COLD tap water which you will wram in a cup in a pan of warm ( can be 'hot' tap for the pan, ) Water, and fill a Nipple with.


Nice wholesome Seeds such as Canary Seed, Finch Seed or similar... can be made into a fairly fine powder in any cheap easy to get 1.00 at any thrift store or yard sale or ten bucks new, "small, clear plastic top Coffee Grinder".

One takes some Seeds, and some Goji Berrys, say two tablespoons of Seeds, and one of Gojis, and grinds them into a fine powder.

TO THIS, while "dry" one adds a maybe equal part of "K-T" or other similar commercial powdered "baby bird food".

If you got the powdered Purple Dulce and Chlorella, add a teaspoon of each to the dry ingredients and in that case, stirr them DRY so all is about equally mixed.


To these "DRY" ingredients, one addds enough ACV-Water, as to cover them, in a Tea cup or similar, so that there is about 3/8ths to 1/2 of an inch clear Water standing on top of the ingredients.


TO THIS, one adds say a three inch 'squig' of 'Nutrical" and one lets it sit then, as is, in the frige, covered, for an hour. DO NOT STIRR NOW...



THEN, one warms THIS, in it's Tea Cup or the likes...warms this, in a pan of HOT Water, stirring it so all is belended well and so it is warmed uniformly...adding whatever additional ACV-Water that may be needed for it to assume the consistancy of melted Ice Cream on a hot day.

The formula needs to be about one's own body temperature, and no less, and no more. If it is cool, he will not eat it.


This 'soupy' formula then, you fill the hollow side of a trimmed-collar people-baby-bottle "Nipple" ( JUST THE NIPPLE, NO 'bottle', the "hollow' side of the Nipple - have you had any chance TO see the images i posted links for you to? ) and guide the ( one may hope, and one may invite also TO be, the ) "Nuzzleing" Beak of the young Pigeon...one gently guides their Beak into the hollow side of the Nipple which is 7/8ths full with 'formula" and gently squeezing the Nipple so it is somewhat against the sides of the rear part of his Beak, as he has his Beak in it...one gently squeezes the mid top area of the Nipple...and, while tilting it somewhat toward them, you let the Baby/Youngster eat...and he will eat....and really it is more like gobbleing/drinking which he will do.


For one such as this, such as the one you have, I would allow him some two additional re-fills, and they do not eat all that is in it, so one refills only the top half or 3/4rs of it really...

I would allow him three rounds then...one initial and two refills, then wait a couple hours, then repeat....it is fine to do this all night if you are up.



Feeding him anything else, or anythting solid, whether soaked or not, is not a good idea given his almost certain history of privation, and interior digestive system conditions and borderline toxemia.


What I am outlining is an effect 'Liquid', highly butritious, easily digested, NON TOXIC ( dog food, for the five hundreth time is "toxifying" to their systems) diet which a seriously atrophied, constricted, compromised, bacteria ridden, delicate Crop and digestive system, will be able to handle and be nourished by.


Substituting arbitrary or capricious or haphazard ingredients, departing from any detail of this in any way, will screw things up or kill him.

Make sure you are not pressing against his Crop as he eats, or thereafter.

Keep him warm...


Three Nipple's worth, or such as he can eat out of them, every three hours or so for this 24 hour time period should be fine.


Feel his Crop gently now and then, and if it seems soggy, sloshy-ish, all is well...if it seems solid somewhat, like a lump of soft 'clay' in there, offer "tepid" plain Water warmed just enough in a Cup in a Pan...and offer it IN the 'Nipple'...and gently massage his Crop from the low part where the 'soft clay' feeling part is, it will soften then with a gentle massage, almost instantly once he has drank...and be sloshy soggy again.

This will get you through day two...and help him immensely.


Hope it goes well...

Feel free to call me if any questions or confusions....I PM'd my number so you have it in your message box.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Folks,
Just to eliminate any confusion as to what Phil was referring to in his first statement within his 'QUOTE', I didn't include his outline which precedes that statement, however it can be reviewed by clicking on the arrow next to his name.  



pdpbison said:


> * *Feeding him anything else, or anythting solid, whether soaked or not, is not a good idea* given his almost certain history of privation, and interior digestive system conditions and borderline toxemia.
> 
> *What I am outlining is an effect 'Liquid', highly butritious, easily digested, NON TOXIC ( dog food, for the five hundreth time is "toxifying" to their systems) diet which a seriously atrophied, constricted, compromised, bacteria ridden, delicate Crop and digestive system, will be able to handle and be nourished by.*
> 
> ...


Phil,
* I, personally, haven't needed to resort to feeding a baby small pieces of 'soaked' puppy chow, however *many* member on here have, *without incident*. It hasn't been suggested that this be the baby's regular/ongoing diet.

Kay-T Exact baby bird formula is another good option. It can be prepared anywhere from 'soupy' to thick.  
Many members use this product as well, & again, *without incident*.

** If you are referring to _*arbitrary or capricious or haphazard ingredients*_ as being anything other than the ingredients in your receipe, then I think that's an unfair statement. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted this.

While it's greatly appreciated that you, & other members share your ideas for all to ponder, one idea may work better than another for our members, but they are all usually worthy of being good.  

Cindy


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## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you Phil and everyone else for all the helpful information.

Just a bit of an update on the bird this morning-he's rather active-head up at times looking around.At other times his head is crooked sideways on his chest as he seems to prefer it but he is looking around rather curiously at his surroundings.He has been preening himself rather often and he has pecked here and there at various things-freckles seem to be a favourite for him thus far.I've got him on my livingroom floor at the moment and he's done a small bit of wandering though he seems to prefer staying near where I am sitting or his blanket he'd been sleeping in.He's done several poops most of them a very dark green with a smidge of white stuff on them and they're all semi solid/fairly solid.No diarhhea looking poops.He's been drinking his rehydration solution still also.Honestly he is quite a different bird thus far from when my daughter brought him home and I'm hoping it's a good sign.

No signs thus far of the yellow stuff in his throat/mouth-it's still nice and pink.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Loki said:


> * *Just a bit of an update on the bird this morning*
> 
> ** *Honestly he is quite a different bird thus far from when my daughter brought him home and I'm hoping it's a good sign.*
> 
> No signs thus far of the yellow stuff in his throat/mouth-it's still nice and pink.


* Many thank for the update, Loki.  

** As far as I'm concerned, starting with *heat* & *hydration*, in that order, are imperative *&* a Godsend when dealing with an ill or injured bird.  

It sounds like you & your daughter are doing a great job.  
Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Loki said:


> Thank you Phil and everyone else for all the helpful information.
> 
> Just a bit of an update on the bird this morning-he's rather active-head up at times looking around.At other times his head is crooked sideways on his chest as he seems to prefer it but he is looking around rather curiously at his surroundings.He has been preening himself rather often and he has pecked here and there at various things-freckles seem to be a favourite for him thus far.I've got him on my livingroom floor at the moment and he's done a small bit of wandering though he seems to prefer staying near where I am sitting or his blanket he'd been sleeping in.He's done several poops most of them a very dark green with a smidge of white stuff on them and they're all semi solid/fairly solid.No diarhhea looking poops.He's been drinking his rehydration solution still also.Honestly he is quite a different bird thus far from when my daughter brought him home and I'm hoping it's a good sign.
> 
> No signs thus far of the yellow stuff in his throat/mouth-it's still nice and pink.




Hi Loki,



It is fine of course to have him in as much 'Hand Nest' or 'Lap Nest' as he may like...


If the dark-green poops are of a consistency like Artist's Oils, like dabs of thick 'paint', it is Bile...and not old fecal matter coming through...you can rub some against a sheet of white paper with your finger tip, and if it is finely coarse-fiberous and sort of seperates a little into liquids and fiberous matter, it is old poop, if it is like green paint, with no fiber in it, it is Bile.

Bile being 'pooped' out is one of the typical signs of serious starvation...

Usually, there will be some old bits of stale poop as such, which start comeing out once they are getting rehydrated, but not always...sometimes theit Intestines really are empty.


The White Urates show that he is pocessing the rehydration solution 'as' Water, through his Kidneys, from having assimilated it in his system and Blood...as well as that it is being conducted into his Cells and system generally...so, seeing White Urates of course is good.


Be on the look out for any changes in the Urates, such as if they start becoming chaulky-yellow...as this would be taken to indicate a probable Trichomona infection ( often called 'Canker' in casual terms, ) somewhere in his system, and would recommend appropriate medicines to deal with...and is not uncommon for those Birds who have suffered privations, to come down with AS they rally and start to recover.



I posted some formula preperation and feeding info in your thread last night, which please see...( likely you have by now, I am a late riser..)


So...he is not overly 'spazzy' or un-cordinated now?



Anyway, as he continues to improve, he will almost certainly become frantic and frenzied in wishing to be fed...and this of course is a normal thing under the circumstances.


Small 'soupy' Meals, every few hours...around the clock as much as is convenient to do...


Are you feeding him out of the Hollow Nipple then, and it is working alright for both of you? did you find the images of this helpful ? - the links I posted?


Something I just thought of yesterday evening...is that the 'Salt Substitute' people with high Blood pressure use on foods, it is Potasium Chloride.


This would be excellent to add a little of to any Bird in the situation yours was/is in...add it to the rehydrating solution, and even to the first few days of formula...just a little pinch would do...in a couple of the feeds.

The Potasium they need also, and the traditional 'rehabbers' extempore, of the Salt and Sugar recipe, while very good, would be improved by this being added.



Till next..!


I am so glad things are proceeding well...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Loki, your update on behalf of your daughter and the rescued pigeon are 
really just wonderful. As Terry mentioned initially, the pictures you posted were
just so sad for your little baby. You folks are indeed doing a great job, and this
bird is responding very well to your care program.

If it's at all possible, could you please post a couple of new pictures for comparison for members to view? Underneath the lower mandible, how is the
feather situation there? Any pin feathers coming in that area, hopefully?
Thanks again for the wonderful job you are doing for this needy baby.

fp


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## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Two pictures of him-not the best but I think from them you can see that he is feeling much more perky and alert than the previous pictures in the thread.I'd wanted to get pictures of him up and moving but of course he decided the only up and moving he cared to do was fussing at my fingers even though he had just been fed and drank all that he cared for as well.I'm assuming that having been starving hungry for a time that he will be crazy for food for quite some time even if technically he is full at times -shrug- I'll try to get some more pictures tomorrow randomly instead of coming at him with the camera with the intentions of pictures-animals never seem to comply when you plan on getting pictures.

No pinfeathers coming in below his beak at all it's still just pink skin.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

That little one seems to have improved greatly, Loki.  

Is he able to hold his head upright in a normal position?

You & your daughter are to be commended for doing such a wonderful.  

Many thanks for the update *&* pictures.  

Cindy


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## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> That little one seems to have improved greatly, Loki.
> 
> Is he able to hold his head upright in a normal position?


He is definitely improved from the first night home.He preens himself and ruffles his feathers and does that pigeon sort of stretch-you know they balance on one foot and stretch the other foot back while stretching their wings a bit.He's also gotten curious enough to peck here and there at things-he seems to appreciate freckles the most but he also really likes the red light at the back of my mouse for some reason or another.Much more alert and is spending more time awake just kind of sitting near one of us or in a lap watching things around him.

Hmn.....as to the head question-those two pictures show the positions he prefers to hold his head in the most.I've seen him get his head upright a few times but it's not a frequent occurence so I really don't know if he can keep it stable for prolonged periods in a normal straight down the center between his wings sort of position.Perhaps with time when he is feeling better he will hold it more upright.At the moment he only seems to hold it upright when he is chasing after my fingers.


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

It holds it up other times too actually. Last night it was quite awake and kept putting it's head up straight to look at the tv because I had a movie on, and then later when it was pecking at the designs on the sheets.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the encouraging updates and new photos. I'm so very glad this little one continues to show improvement .. s/he's gonna grow up to be a dermatologist specializing in freckle examination and removal (be very glad it's not a parrot)  

Terry


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## FieryRose (Jul 23, 2007)

Haha I have a freckle right below my eyebrow though so when I get close to it I have to watch out so it doesn't try to remove it.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> s/he's gonna grow up to be a dermatologist specializing in freckle examination and removal (be very glad it's not a parrot)
> 
> Terry


Or even a parakeet.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

After taking a peek at the pictures, it's hard to believe this is the same little bird. Wow! That's some good TLC!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

He's probably tilting his head like that as a result of "vestibular disease" which doesn't indicate what's causing it, merely that it's some kind of problem with the parts that have to do with balance like the middle and inner ear as well as on into the brain stem. If the problem were central (brain stem), the tilt would be to the opposite side. If it's peripheral (middle and inner ear), it's generally to the side of the lesion. Central ones tend to also cause other symptoms like paresis (weakness or paralysis) and proprioceptive deficits (the lights are on but nobody's home).

This bird's a bit young yet for the lack of feathering under the jaws and towards the ears to be indicative of a canker process (not cancer), but given that the bird also had the snotty nose earlier, it's possible that there's been something heading back that way that we don't want. Can't say this would help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt: I'd get the bird on Metronidazole or some other anti-canker med so I'd get in touch with Cricket who posted her contact info earlier and see about getting a course.

I've had more than one bird with a head-tilt, by the way.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Given that I have seen these head tiltings and Neck wobblies often in serious privation historys, do you suppose that some Vestibular ( or other) compromise could result from the dehydration these Birds had suffered?


I have two presently who have it, otherwise they are happy wacky bright little Squeakers...


Usually it passes after a week or a ways more...but not yet with tyhese two...so I worry somewhat, of course...


Any idea what might be good for it?


Omega 3 fatty Acids ( Flax Seeds or Cod Liver Oil but watch out for the latter as it can have too much Vitamine "A" for their stsyems...) maybe?


Any ideas?


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not sure that there is a good answer, Phil. I took YoYo to the vet, perhaps on more than one occasion. Second Chance hasn't been yet because we initially thought PMV, but even that doesn't seem quite right now. The original Chance (years ago) had a few other symptoms (and he went to the vet, too). If you read the books (Rupley is good because it has a problem-solving algorithm in it), the tests that you'd normally follow would be a radiograph looking for heavy metal poisoning, possibly otitis media/interna (ear infections) and organomegaly; virus tests; toxologic tests; cultures; serology; special stains; biopsies; histopathology based on clinical signs; physical findings... it even mentions the possibility of malnutrition. Essentially, you'd be throwing the whole book at the bird.

They never even suggested to do any of that with the birds I've brought in. You can look in the ears with an otoscope for any signs of inflammation and maybe an X-Ray and that's about the best you can do other than shooting blind. If there were an infection and you cured it, that still doesn't mean that the body can completely repair the damage that the infection did. YoYo lived about a year and kept Unie company. YoYo did a lot of circling, too. Perhaps if YoYo had been a $3,000 parrot, they'd have suggested to do some serious testing, I just don't know. Maybe the way they looked at it was that if the condition was stable then there wouldn't be any other practical thing they could have done about it anyhow. YoYo was definitely on his way out and wasn't going to make it without intervention when I got him, though.

There's a difference, though, between a nestling or bird who lacks the energy to hold its head up and one that can vigorously hold its head up and preen WITH a fairly constant head tilt. Let's just hope on this guy that some time will take care of it but I'd still want to take a look in those ear holes to make sure they both look the same and have the same coloration (lack of inflammation) and a swab for trichomonads.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks for the encouraging updates and new photos. I'm so very glad this little one continues to show improvement .. s/he's gonna grow up to be a dermatologist specializing in freckle examination and removal (be very glad it's not a parrot)
> 
> Terry



Oh!


Lol...

The WORST Birds I have ever met in this regard, were Sparrows I have convelesed...who once friendly and easy, pre-release free fly time, would fly over to see what I was doing, and see a freckle on my arm and just 'Hammer' away at it like there was no tomorrow.

And after the fiftieth or so rapid hard sharp little Beak 'peck', or bite-and-twist, by golly it WOULD start to hurt!


That and they loved pecking at various letters on printed things...try reading a Book or News Paper sometime with a Sparrow comeing over to see what it is you are interested in...

Almost as bad as trying to read with a Cat!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I'm not sure that there is a good answer, Phil. I took YoYo to the vet, perhaps on more than one occasion. Second Chance hasn't been yet because we initially thought PMV, but even that doesn't seem quite right now. The original Chance (years ago) had a few other symptoms (and he went to the vet, too). If you read the books (Rupley is good because it has a problem-solving algorithm in it), the tests that you'd normally follow would be a radiograph looking for heavy metal poisoning, possibly otitis media/interna (ear infections) and organomegaly; virus tests; toxologic tests; cultures; serology; special stains; biopsies; histopathology based on clinical signs; physical findings... it even mentions the possibility of malnutrition. Essentially, you'd be throwing the whole book at the bird.
> 
> They never even suggested to do any of that with the birds I've brought in. You can look in the ears with an otoscope for any signs of inflammation and maybe an X-Ray and that's about the best you can do other than shooting blind. If there were an infection and you cured it, that still doesn't mean that the body can completely repair the damage that the infection did. YoYo lived about a year and kept Unie company. YoYo did a lot of circling, too. Perhaps if YoYo had been a $3,000 parrot, they'd have suggested to do some serious testing, I just don't know. Maybe the way they looked at it was that if the condition was stable then there wouldn't be any other practical thing they could have done about it anyhow. YoYo was definitely on his way out and wasn't going to make it without intervention when I got him, though.
> 
> ...



Thanks Pidgey...good food for thought...


The ones I have had...certainly malnutrition/privation/starvation/dehydration had been going on in their immediate past history.

I am going to try upping the "B" Vitamines ( within reason of course) and see if that helps...and include some nice chewy Flax Seeds also or fresh meal made from them for the Baby-Feed ones.


Golly...


I best get on to whooping up some chow for some hungry little Beaks now I think...

I can 'feel' them from a distance even, wondering "Where the HECK is our 'soup'??? What is it with this guy anyway, is he waiting for Christmas or something????!!!!"

Lol...


Phil
L v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Personally, I would give this bird a Baytril/Metronidazole combination as 
Metronidazole w/not deal as comprehensively as I would want for bacterial
pathogens which can also cause CNS symptoms. Canker can get in the sinuses and be problematic there, but other pathogens can also.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,



Certainly no harm if to do so, and if it did clear up the neck-wobblies, then one would be glad one did.


What pathogens might be suspected in these kind of situations?


Any ideas?


Phil
Las V


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Photo type updates on the squeaker.....










Here he is holding his head typically how he does when I've gotten up and started walking away from him or am returning to where I'd previously left him.He looks really alert and curious here.










This is his other side-his eye on that side is obviously a little irritated from how he rubs it along the ground at times/lies on it here and there.










Doing his typical walking in circles-at the moment he was after my fingers.










Feeling good enough to do some preening-and he does it rather alot actually.





feralpigeon said:


> Personally, I would give this bird a Baytril/Metronidazole combination as
> Metronidazole w/not deal as comprehensively as I would want for bacterial
> pathogens which can also cause CNS symptoms. Canker can get in the sinuses and be problematic there, but other pathogens can also.
> 
> fp


I'll have to pm Cricket and ask about whether or not she might have a bit of those that I can get for the squeaker and instructions as how to give them.


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Typically this is how he holds his head most of the time-but even in this picture he is looking so much better from the first night we got him home.

Didn't realise there was a photo limit per thread here-so I had to post again to add this one.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Loki, were you able to get in touch w/Cricket and can you get meds from
Cricket? If so, did Cricket have the Baytril/Metronidazole combo available to
give?

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Loki,




DO get some proper 'Antibiotic Eye Ointment" for the Eye which has been getting 'rubbed'..!

Any Farm or Feed Store should have it 'over the counter'...otherwiase you need a prescription from an MD or DVM or the likes...


I have to wonder...if this deligtful little 'Squeaker' is showing mild PPMV symptoms?


I have been wondering the same of my little one who has similar Head and Neck issues.


I can not tell...I know privation can leave lingering, seemingly Neurological compromise which will often show in their Head and Neck movements/postures...


Which 'mild' Neurological PPMV involvements can also do...


Either way, either of these can clear up over time...and the Bird assume an entirely normal and healthy condition...


Time will tell...


Possibly, in either or our's, as fp mentioned, there might BE a Bacterial involvement, effecting the Nerology for these odd postures to be showing.


I did have my little one on Batryl, initially, and during the regimen, I was also over-dosing him on Metronidazole, trying to clear him of a tenaceous Canker...so I could not tell if I had done these symptoms to him...or what.


He was very 'wobbley' from the beginning...I thought, from his dehydration/starvation time...so likely I added to it, but did not cause it.


So, I dunno...


But your little one there Loki, Wing Flapping, and Preening and so on, is obviously feeling pretty good..!


How are the poops?

Color? 

Consistancy? 

Number in 24 hours?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Loki, what a sweet baby. From the first picture to the last picture its like looking at two different birds.

Early on, years ago, when we got in our first few PMV birds, a vet told us to use a Baytril tablet and metronidazole liquid combo to treat them. I'm not sure that he ever told me why to specifically use a Baytril tablet. I can't swear that this combo made a difference, but several did totally recover. We had two that did not. Their symptoms were more severe than most of them but they did show some improvement over time. One we had to hand feed for over two years until his death and the other, although he learned to feed himself, would revert to the star gazing quite often.

I think you'll find this little guy to be exceptionally loving. Most all of our PMV's have been that way.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Maggie,


I have two probable PPMV adults - new arrives - presently...

Somehow both of these are so darling and shy and very moving to watch.

Thankfully, both eat on their own and are managing...

One sits most of the time with her Beak pointing 'up'...the other lays with his head out straight but half-upside down, so one Eye is 'up' watching everything.


It is a patient slow matter for me to make friends with these two...they are very shy, very sensitive, and they know they are at a disadvantage, and at first each would act terrified if I got close or entered their cages.


Slowly, I have gotten to where they will entertain "Whos got-a-Tummy? YOU've got a Tummy!" as I s-l-o-w-l-y reach low to sort of gently stroke them just beneath their Crops.

I talk to them every day, offering various affectionate and soothing tones and compliments on how pretty they are and so on.

So, now, I can change Seed Bowls, change Water Bowls, and they do not 'worry'...


One has let me preen her head without appearent objection...and they other seems to have acquired a 'Happy Eye' look, and is much more relaxed and easy but still very 'touchy' about me taking too many libertys...but if I pick him up in 'Floaty Bird' between my palms, and hold him up, he actually seems to really enjoy it and is very interested to lewt it continue without protest.

The PPMV also seems to effect them when they wish TO react to something, and both of them, if they wish to move suddenly or are upset at all, the spazzy stuff of course can get pretty pronounced.

At rest, they are of course quite still and composed and dignified...and do well when moving slowly or at a casual rate.


But what all this ramble is to affirm...is that the probable PPMV Pigeons I have had, were indeed especially endearing, sweet, sensitive and somehow even adorable.


'Big Girl' who was a probable PPMV one of several years ago, lives with me... and people who visit always point her out and say how lovely and compelling she is.

She just 'glows' all the time...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm specifically concerned about the head tilt in conjunction w/the loss of feathering, i.e., a common indicator of an inflamatory response especially
under the lower mandible but moving into other areas as well. Could be the 
round of meds would correct both the head tilt and inflamation. As Maggie
mentioned, PMV can cause torticollis, though there are bacterial pathogens 
that could as well. These aren't necessarily health worries for you in terms
of transmission to you, but they are for your new buddy.

fp


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> How are the poops?
> 
> Color?
> 
> ...


How are the poops?numerous and at times rather well aimed 

Color? well as we had discussed via email he had been doing those dark green ones that you said were most likely bile however the poops are now either an olive green or brownish colour with white urates.I thought I had seen a couple with urates that weren't really white white but when I showed hubby he said it looked white to him.Mind I had an intense migraine at the time and my vision is not always the best at those times.

Consistancy? most of them have been more or less like oil paint consistency though he has let a few fly that were a bit more loose than that but not say liquid poop just a bit more loose.

Number in 24 hours?lol over 20 easily-I have my own little feathery poop factory I'm certain of it.I would say he is probably easily doing 30 a day or so-all around the size of a nice fat raisin at the very least-some much bigger.He's definitely not having issues with not pooping anyhow.

Feral-I pm'd Cricket regarding the meds you and others have suggested to see if I can get some from her or if she can show me a place nearby to get them and asked if she would tell me how to administer them etc as well.I also asked if she might be willing to give the squeaker a look over to see what she thinks of how he is doing.

As to the whole way he holds his neck etc.....so long as he comes out of this healthy and he's not hurting himself holding his head however he ends up doing it I'll be happy.Basically so long as the bird is happy and healthy all will be well in my eyes.I've no issues with animals that don't act "normal" I've a cat with cerebellar hypoplasia who walks like a drunk because she can't control all of her muscles properly-total lack of coordination.But in her own way in my eyes she is perfect.I had a rat who was born blind and deaf-who again to me was perfect-others debated that point but to me there was nothing wrong with her really -shrug- Sometimes things that aren't perfect are alot more endearing in the end whether they be animals or people.

Mind I wasn't meaning it in a way like anyone was thinking that abnormal birds should be put down or anything I just wanted to make it clear that abnormalities don't bother me so long as the animal isn't hurting etc.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Loki, that's way cool about your pets and it seems like you and your rescue
are a perfect match for one another... 
Still, if you don't hear from Crickett by Sunday evening, if you pm your address
to me I will send you a rehabber's care package Monday Morning.  

fp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cricket is house sitting through this coming Wednesday, I think. She doesn't have access to a computer and is not checking this forum regularly.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Loki said:


> This is his other side-*his eye on that side is obviously a little irritated from how he rubs it along the ground at times/lies on it here and there*.


Just a thought, Loki, maybe you could put a soft towel under the little one so his face isn't rubbing on the newspaper. The ink may be irritating the eye as well.

Cindy


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Personally, I would give this bird a Baytril/Metronidazole combination as
> Metronidazole w/not deal as comprehensively as I would want for bacterial
> pathogens which can also cause CNS symptoms. Canker can get in the sinuses and be problematic there, but other pathogens can also.
> 
> fp



HI fp,


I decided to start my little 'tilter' on some Cipro ( I have no Batryl) and let him be on it for a week or so...

I forgot, what is the mg/kilo-bid for Avian situations? I gave him 15 mg just now...prolly too low...he weighs about 150 gms there abouts...

Do you have that info handy?


Thanks!


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> I'm specifically concerned about the head tilt in conjunction w/the loss of feathering, i.e., a common indicator of an inflamatory response especially
> under the lower mandible but moving into other areas as well. Could be the
> round of meds would correct both the head tilt and inflamation. As Maggie
> mentioned, PMV can cause torticollis, though there are bacterial pathogens
> ...



Hi fp,


Rubbing the collar of the 'Nipple' possibly inhibts the Feathers filling in there too...


At least I see such slow to fill in areas a lot, and I feed them of course in the hollow of a Nipple where they 'rub' those areas in shoving their little Heads in with such vigor...

These always fill in soon enough anyway..but, you are right to note it and to mention the association...

Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Loki,


Poos sound fine to me then...

What I would expect for the chow they are eating...


Soft 'white' terrycloth Towell is a good thing for them to be on...newspapers, not-so-good...and for may reasons ( papers encourge potentially dangerious molds which can be subvisual, from the starches in the paper and so on...not good)


So, formula wise, have you been making the Seed-Meal out of fresh Seeds and Goji Berrys in the little Coffee Grinder, and adding Nutrical?


Phil
l vee


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pdpbison said:


> HI fp,
> 
> 
> I decided to start my little 'tilter' on some Cipro ( I have no Batryl) and let him be on it for a week or so...
> ...


Cipro and Baytril are dosed alike .. 15 mg per kg of weight. Sooo .. 15 mg for a 150 gram bird was a big, big dose!

Terry


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Marvelous improvement in that little bird!  Thank you for the updates and the new photos .. please keep 'em coming.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Cipro and Baytril are dosed alike .. 15 mg per kg of weight. Sooo .. 15 mg for a 150 gram bird was a big, big dose!
> 
> Terry




Oooops....


Well, if he DID have any Bacteria bothering him, I recon that would have let them know I mean business!


Lol...


Thanks Terry..!


Oye...

Phil
L V


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Ahhh, Phil, I think you have beyond the adequate information handy to look
it up yourself. I seem to recall mailing you quite a bit of information that
would take you weeks to study if you decided to. Think you may have to roll
up your sleeves and dig up the info yourself.

fp




pdpbison said:


> HI fp,
> 
> 
> I decided to start my little 'tilter' on some Cipro ( I have no Batryl) and let him be on it for a week or so...
> ...


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Cricket is house sitting through this coming Wednesday, I think. She doesn't have access to a computer and is not checking this forum regularly.


I'll send Feral a pm then ty!



AZWhitefeather said:


> Just a thought, Loki, maybe you could put a soft towel under the little one so his face isn't rubbing on the newspaper. The ink may be irritating the eye as well.
> 
> Cindy


Actually most times he is on a soft towel-I had spread out some newspapers on the floor to let him walk about a bit to see if he would like it and to try to get a few decent pictures of him.



pdpbison said:


> Hi Loki,
> 
> 
> Poos sound fine to me then...
> ...


Thanks for the extra info on the newspaper-I'll be keeping him off them from now on.I might let him have a bit of a wander on the kitchen tile if I want to let him have some room to explore later (once the cat has been banished to a bedroom behind locked door) or possibly even outside on the porch if it's warm enough.Under supervision of course.I don't leave it alone anywhere.The formula is exactly as you'd told me to make it and he loves it.Loves it to where he gives me odd looks when I offer him seeds as you suggested in email.

He is quite the perky little thing this morning-preening and holding his head up with neck extended rather nicely in a normal sort of position/angle.He does hold his head this way off and on but generally he holds it more like the pictures I'd posted-gazing at everyone with that one eye etc.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Loki,


Exercise is good for them, so long as they welcome it...


Slick surfaces are not good for young legs...so best if he can have excursions onto surfaces his feet can grip well...Tile is likely a mite slippey for those little Feets.


He'd probably enjoy being outside sometimes, with close supervision of course. Getting some direct Sunsine now and then...


Funny, my presently three youngsters who I am raising, two instantly excelled with the Shot Glass Seed Gobble, one refuses it completely.

The two who excelled instantly, each started to peck very well also, and one, after his stellar beginning, has completely refused to peck since, and the other, WILL peck when with the various ambient others as they graze Seeds on the floor, but he will not peck if I am with him!


Lol...


Every one is different...

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Check your pm's...sent some things off to you.

fp


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Check your pm's...sent some things off to you.
> 
> fp



Thank you so much!

I noticed yesterday upon checking the squeaker that it has alot of pinfeathers coming in on the neck area under the beak-and other places he is missing them and I take it to be a good sign.

I'm wondering something regarding bathing though-sometimes when he is doing his walking around (generally backwards in circles) he manages to flip himself over if he's bumped into something behind him-such as the corner of his sleeping box and well he's gotten dirty in spots with poop.I was wondering if I can take a wet washrag and spot clean him so long as I make sure he dries fairly quickly-will this be detrimental to his health at the moment?I was thinking I could clean him up and take him outside to let him roam around in the clover patch to warm up and dry off but also to have a bit of fun and fresh air.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can I ask you some questions about the "walking in circles"? Does he appear to look over his back a couple of times and then his neck sorta' pulls around and he walks in circles for awhile and then all of a sudden stops and looks around a bit confused? Is it anything like that?

Pidgey


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Can I ask you some questions about the "walking in circles"? Does he appear to look over his back a couple of times and then his neck sorta' pulls around and he walks in circles for awhile and then all of a sudden stops and looks around a bit confused? Is it anything like that?
> 
> Pidgey



Well the only time he really holds his head upright and "normally" is when he's busy flapping his wings, doing the pigeon stretch of the wings and leg, or when he's really interested in someone who has come into the room or something that is happening in the room.Having said that he does alot of walking backwards-which sometimes he manages to do in a straight enough line but more often than not it's in circles.He has yet to my knowledge to make more than one step (possibly up to three) forward.He will hold his head either on his chest in the odd angle or have it below him almost on the floor in the angle in the pictures I posted and then go in circles walking backwards.He will do a circle or two and then stop and look around a bit and then go back to doing more.I can't say that he really looks confused about it when he stops.It always seems to me that he is checking his progress at whatever he thinks he is up to with those circles of his.

Often after a couple circles he'll do his crazy flapping although generally he saves that for when certain people enter the room after having been absent for a while.

If you've more questions ask away please and if I can answer I will.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The 'crazy flapping' he'd probably do regardless...they just get excited and
see you as a food source and that's how baby pigeon express their recognition
of the parent when hungry and when being fed. Their shoulders/wings go wild.
Terry Whatley has some crack up videos of a baby of hers she named Happy
Dancer,I'll see if I can find a link to HD. 

Does your rescue ever turn it's head upside down and look upwards? It does
sound w/this info that you do have a viral issue, PMV.

fp


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Loki said:


> Often after a couple circles *he'll do his crazy flapping* although generally he saves that for when certain people enter the room after having been absent for a while.
> 
> If you've more questions ask away please and if I can answer I will.


Hi Loki,
Does the 'crazy flapping' about look like he might be having a slight seizire or spasm?

Cindy


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

The crazy flapping is the same that I remember in both pigeons that my exstepfather used to own used to do but also some other birds I'd raised would do it as well-a crow I had in particullar used to be fond of doing it.It's more of a recognition that the food source entered the room or a hey over here give me some attention issue in my opinion.Not so much a random spaztic flapping/seizure kind of thing.

Feral yes he tips his head upside down and looks "up" at us from that angle often enough-I believe one of the pictures I posted shows him doing just that.He doesn't do that in the midst of his going in circles though.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it sounds an awful lot like YoYo. YoYo did have seizures of some kind. They involved the head laying on the body and walking somewhat backwards and then into a circling. He could go around and around and around. He'd step on his tail sometimes. Incidentally, his tail would usually cock to one side during the circling in its own spasm. It would cock to the bird's left as would his head. His eyes would fix and you could tell that he wasn't looking at anything. There was tension in his neck at those times--it took real effort to pull it back forward or straighten it up. He'd have several seizures an hour, every day for a year.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Take a look at these links and the links inside to Happy Dancer videos:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=121929&postcount=1

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14949&page=2&highlight=Happy+Dancer

Is this the kind of shoulder movement you are talking about?

fp


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Loki said:


> The crazy flapping is the same that I remember in both pigeons that my exstepfather used to own used to do but also some other birds I'd raised would do it as well-a crow I had in particullar used to be fond of doing it.It's more of a recognition that the food source entered the room or a hey over here give me some attention issue in my opinion.Not so much a random spaztic flapping/seizure kind of thing.
> 
> Feral yes
> * he tips his head upside down and looks "up" at us from that angle often enough-
> *I believe one of the pictures I posted shows him doing just that.He doesn't do that in the midst of his going in circles though.


Actually, I don't remember the 'star-gazing' photo per se, and it is a classic
symptom of PMV. Though I've never dealt w/a PMV bird, there is some
good info on it in the resource section, and Cindy and Cynthia are our resident experts on this topic along w/some other members w/multiple experiences w/the virus.

fp


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Well, it sounds an awful lot like YoYo. YoYo did have seizures of some kind. They involved the head laying on the body and walking somewhat backwards and then into a circling. He could go around and around and around. He'd step on his tail sometimes. Incidentally, his tail would usually cock to one side during the circling in its own spasm. It would cock to the bird's left as would his head. His eyes would fix and you could tell that he wasn't looking at anything. There was tension in his neck at those times--it took real effort to pull it back forward or straighten it up. He'd have several seizures an hour, every day for a year.
> 
> Pidgey


Hmn...I'll have to look at squeaker again when he's doing his circles but I don't really think that he seems to be seizuring but of course I could be totally wrong.He never does it the same length of time-sometimes he'll do it longer than others and he stops after several circles and checks things out and resumes many times.I've not noticed the tail cock in any direction in particullar but I'll check that out as well as if he goes in the direction his head is cocked.

Feral lol yes that's exactly the kind of spazzy flapping of the wings that I mean although this one doesn't do it while walking as he doesn't really walk real well.He tends to hold in the same position while doing it and will only take a step or two forward on occasion if he moves in any direction.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Actually, I don't remember the 'star-gazing' photo per se, and it is a classic symptom of PMV.
> Though I've never dealt w/a PMV bird, there is some
> good info on it in the resource section, and Cindy and Cynthia are our resident experts on this topic along w/some other members w/multiple experiences w/the virus.
> 
> ...


Here's a picture of Pij in his 'most often' pose, prior to starting a course of Prednison. 
Very rarely was his head rightside up.  

Cindy


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Here's a comparison picture of Pij *after* he finished his course of Prednisone.  

Cindy


----------



## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Pretty much squeaker holds his head alot like the first picture although when alert he holds his head up like the second picture.He is -capable- of it but doesn't do it that often.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cindy, still makes me weepy to see his pictures, such a sweetheart and you
took such good care of him.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Loki said:


> Thank you so much!
> 
> I noticed yesterday upon checking the squeaker that it has alot of pinfeathers coming in on the neck area under the beak-and other places he is missing them and I take it to be a good sign.
> 
> I'm wondering something regarding bathing though-sometimes when he is doing his walking around (generally backwards in circles) he manages to flip himself over if he's bumped into something behind him-such as the corner of his sleeping box and well he's gotten dirty in spots with poop.I was wondering if I can take a wet washrag and spot clean him so long as I make sure he dries fairly quickly-will this be detrimental to his health at the moment?I was thinking I could clean him up and take him outside to let him roam around in the clover patch to warm up and dry off but also to have a bit of fun and fresh air.



Hi Loki,


Yea, that should be fine, or you can use a little squeeze-bottle-mister up close...


No Water Bowls of course in his Cage or other accomidations...


You could see if he wants to take-a-Bath...just set a Skillet of cool water, say an inch deep, ner him and wiggle-splash your fingers in it.


Some youngsters very much do wish to take a bath, and many don't...but just in case he does. And if he does you can use your hand to struesel water on him also or lightly splash him from up close.

As long as you supervise him closely, he should be fine.


If a skillet, use an old Cast Iron one, or a something which is not 'non stick', since those might be too slippery for him...a Baking Pan or Cake Pan is fine...


Have fun...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HI Loki,


I had been meaning to mention...

In feeding with the 'Nipple', you can sprinkle a half Teaspoon or more of small whole Seeds into the bottom of the Nipple and then add the soupy formula...and he should eat the Seeds along with it then. Refill the same way for the next course...and over a given meal, he will get a fair amount of actual whole small Seeds in him in addition to however much formula.

Possibly, he would do the same with merely some Seeds and Water in the Nipple also.


Anyway, been meaning to mention that, since you had indicated he was not into the Shot Glass Seed Gobble yet...or was indicating a lack of interest in it anyway.

I have a pair of Squeaker siblings where one is very much into it, and one is not, so the one who is not into it, gets lots of Seeds in the Nipple with formula on top...and he eats them just fine that way.


Phil
l v


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## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks for the info Phil-I'll give him a try at a bath this afternoon once my youngest gets off the bus-as he'd probably like to watch/and or voice a bit of encouragement to the squeaker.

I'll also try some seeds in the bottom of the formula nipple feedings to see if that'll work as well.

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Loki,



Those who at his age that are interested in taking a Bath, will respond well to one's wiggle-splashing one's fingers in a small Pan of Water...they get a 'look' which is partiular in it's way, experssing their interest, and they will usually march right over and get into the Water and start right in with their Bathing moves.


If he is not interested, you can also just gently set him in it, and unless he completly objects, you can sory of lightly splash water with your fingers from underneath him, and so on and see how that goes as for getting him cleaned up.


Pigeons seem to prefer cool Water and not warm, for baths or bathing.


Too, one can just run some inches of Water in the Bathroom Sink, with the stopper partially open, have fresh Water running in to replenish, and just give them a Bath that way, which is what I do for the ones who need to be Bathed, rather than when it is a discretionary matter for them to decide.


If the latter, try and not let water get on his Head...but everywgere else is fine.


Small whole Seeds in the 'Nipple' works very well. 

I add them first, and put the formula on top of them.

Last night, my one who gets his formula that way, I stuffed him very very full, I don't remember, but many Nipples worth anyway...so his Crop was "like a Tennis Ball" almost, and he liked that of course, very much.

I had done likewise with his morning meal yesterday, and that one meal carried him a long ways...carried him all the way TO thta evening meal in fact...so it is very practical for them and us, since it means fewer feed times, and a more satisfied Baby/Youngster.

They really like being very full...so long as we are sensitive to lettingthembuild up to it if need be.


How "full" full can be, is somehting they can work up to...their Crops might be shrunken somehow if they had starved for some period or had only known small meals...so for those, a gradual progression over a week or a week and and a half or something can see their Crops expand or enlarge to accomidate larger feedings, and quite large feedings in fact.


Too, adult Pigeons who had slowly starved for some reason...these also seem to end up with a very small Crop Capacity...and, likewise, over some time, several weeks maybe, many weeks maybe, their Crops enlarge and expand to allow larger feedings or larger self-feedings.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Loki (Jul 23, 2007)

Update on the squeaker-his urates have turned a slightly yellowish colour and he's got a bit of clear mucousy crud coming from his beak-both the breathing holes and at times from inside his mouth.I can't see any white spots in his mouth at the time but I keep checking.He also has been making some odd noises the past couple of days-when he is swallowing or trying to swallow-maybe he is having difficulties swallowing?His interest in food isn't big at the moment though he is wanting alot of water.

Does this suggest he has canker and if so should I start medicating him?

Also how can I tell if he is a pmv or no?He has actually done marvelously with holding his head normally alot of the time lately though he does spend a decent portion of the time with his head below his breast looking up at me still-it's just less frequent.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Loki said:


> Update on the squeaker-
> * *his urates have turned a slightly yellowish colour and he's got a bit of clear mucousy crud coming from his beak-both the breathing holes and at times from inside his mouth*.
> 
> I can't see any white spots in his mouth at the time but I keep checking.He also has been making some odd noises the past couple of days-when he is swallowing or trying to swallow-maybe he is having difficulties swallowing?His interest in food isn't big at the moment though he is wanting alot of water.
> ...


Hi Loki,
Your description does indeed sound like canker to me. If it's not visible, there's a good chance it's internal.
It's not uncommon for a pij with advanced cases of canker to have a mucous buildup inside it's mouth. I have had several. 

When I suspect canker, I administer 1 Spartrix daily for 3-5 days, depending on the severity of the canker.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Loki

How is this baby doing?


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