# Never know what color....



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

These are a pair of crossbreed oops babies I just had hatch a couple of weeks ago. Hen is a blue Frillback (see pic) and cock is a WOE white self. Grandparents on the maternal side are a grey shield frillback cock and a red splash frillback hen. I have no idea what the white WOE is carrying in his gene pool. The squeakers looked like they were going to be dark and then bingo, their feathers unfurled and we have a real mix of reds and white. I call the breed Frizzles. LOL.

Margaret


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like you may have a spread ash-red and an ash-red grizzle. Cute babies!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Thanks Becky. They are cute little pumpkins aren't they. I'm guessing they may change a lot when they molt out this fall. I wouldn't choose to mix these two breeds, but they got past me this time. The cock lost his mate of nine years this past fall and paired up with this FB hen. It is her first round. He is one of the best foster parents I've ever had, and together they will make great pumpers for my show birds.

M.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Margarret, Funnily enough my flatmate has some WOE cross frillbacks, He has got some third generation that are almost back to frillback in type. We do not have blacks or self reds over here so he is using the WOE to bring in these colours. Check out his album, there may be some pics. His name on here is thepigeonkey


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Evan, 

Thank you for the info. I will take a look.

M.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Looks like you may have a spread ash-red and an ash-red grizzle. Cute babies!


I agree about the ash-red grizzle, but I am not so sure about the spread ash. The white underfeathers especially are throwing me off. I do defer to Becky on the subject of spread ash though, since I've never bred them myself. I also want to add that these birds are also both pied. 

Margaret, maybe you could post us some more pictures when they are fully feathered out and again after their first moult. I'd love to see the final result.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Rudolph, I'll be glad to post pictures of them as they feather out and after molt.
You are right, they are pied as well. I think I called the maternal grandmother a splash, but she is actually grizzle/pied.

M.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Splash is probably the correct fancier term.

I just don't use the word because it has no meaning in pigeon genetics as such, while everyone understands (I hope) that pied means irregular white markings for which we don't know the genetics quite yet. Same difference really ;-)


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I call heavily pied birds, splashes.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

I think it is one of those color designations where common use prevails over the correct term depending on where one lives or the kind of birds they raise. I've found that racers will call a bird one color where show people will use another term for the same color and perhaps the genetics folks will use yet a third name. The genetic terms, IMO, are the correct ones, but it will take an extensive amount of time before common usage converts to the correct term.I know I use the common use terms all the time without thinking.


M.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I am curiosu to see how these babies look as they get older. They look really fat and healthy there. Maybe ThePigeonKey will post some of his frillbac/WOE crosses here. He is doing some neat projects there.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I call heavily pied birds, splashes.


Interesting, I refer to birds with little white splashes around the head area as splashs and ones with lots of white I call gay pieds or pieds.

I guess it shows how words of this nature can be intepreted differently hence my agreement with Rudolph that it is good to talk in genetic terms where possible


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Interesting, I refer to birds with little white splashes around the head area as splashs and ones with lots of white I call gay pieds or pieds.
> 
> I guess it shows how words of this nature can be intepreted differently hence my agreement with Rudolph that it is good to talk in genetic terms where possible


Yep! Cause we are the opposite. I know gay pied used to be a really common term but I had a hard enough time reading the book Gay-Neck (about a gay pied pigeon) when I was little so I guess that's why I went more towards "splash"  Anyway pied birds to me would be splashes to you


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Marrgarret Iwil have to come up and take o look at those guys .* GEORGE


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

george simon said:


> *Hi Marrgarret Iwil have to come up and take o look at those guys .* GEORGE


They are growing fast George. Come on up and take a look. I'm going to raise another round off my black spread cock and that Indigo hen you gave me as well. She is on eggs now.

Margaret


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

pied is derived from magpie, a bird with a *regular* black and white pattern.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Pied comes from piebald, which means splashes of white and color.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Here are the squeakers all feathered out. I suspect with the final molt in the fall they will be mostly white. I don't know the sex yet, but they seem rather henish to me.
Squeaker #1


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

And squeaker #2 who is much lighter. They both have small flecks on their tails, this one more visible than #1


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

*New photos*

Am bumping this as I added some new photos of my Frizzles. Am wondering if they might make good droppers for my friend's loft.

Margaret


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

They are BEAUTIFUL!!!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Squeaker #1 looks like (dirty) pied ash-red check grizzle (maybe spread) to me, but for some reason I am now thinking squaker #2 could just be a heavily pied blue bar grizzle showing a lot of bronzing, just a feeling though - I can see no definitive proof. 

Grizzles can change a lot when moulting (especially during the first moult), so I'd love to watch these two, they might still have some surprises in store.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Pied comes from piebald, which means splashes of white and color.


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pied
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=piebald


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Henk69 said:


> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pied
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=piebald


Thanks for the etymology lesson.

Pied and piebald both mean irregularly spotted with white, so which of the two came first really doesn't matter. Magpie marked on the other hand is a regularly marked white.

Piebald originally referred only to black and white (not other colours) though pied could mean any colour spotted with white. (Decorated or colored in blotches - being a concise dictionary definition). This definition of pied (often used hyponymously with spotted) is used for colour nomenclature for many species and breeds (cats, dogs, rabbits, budgies). In pigeon usage, pied is not a term found in show standards as far as I know, this is why I choose to use it instead of 'splash' which has a standard meaning and is not really a description of a phenotype or gene effect. 

Sorry if I rocked the boat with that usage. Langauge and how each of us understand it differently is often a barrier to learning, which is the reason why gene symbols and defined names are so important. Sadly, there are no symbol for irregularly marked with white as yet.


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