# Moving -- need help resettling my feral flock



## Kay Elgee (Mar 8, 2005)

Hi, everyone.

I’m a feral pigeon rehabber, and have a small core flock of 13 birds. Some are unreleasable, and others are completely healthy but have chosen to stay, usually because they’ve mated with one of my unreleasables. Those are pairs that I keep indoors in an indoor loft. The totally healthy pairs, of which I have two, live outside in my porch/loft. All birds, with a few exceptions, can, during the day, go outside or come indoors as they wish.

We live in a large mobile home, which we are moving to some acreage 100 miles north of here. So, for the indoor birds, nothing much inside will change. For both sets of birds, everything outside is going to change. And that’s my deeply worrying concern. 

Do any of you know whether my healthy birds – both indoor and outdoor birds – will try to return to their old home, which won’t even be there anymore? Will they attempt to leave the new home, even if they have a mate and babies? Are the ferals more attached to a piece of georgraphy than they are to their flock, mates and babies? Are ferals’ homing instincts as powerful as the homing pigeons’? Does anyone think it will be possible to resettle these birds, so that I can eventually allow them outside at the new place? 

I know that the owners of racing lofts speak of “prisoners”, which are birds that have been rehomed to a new loft and therefore cannot ever be allowed outside, or else they'll return "home". They’re kept in loft/aviary set-ups. I just read one such fancier’s remarks that she knew of an instance where a “prisoner” bird, kept in such a setup, accidentally got out, and returned to his old home AFTER TEN YEARS! 

My husband pointed out to me, “Well, under those circumstances, wouldn’t you leave if you ever got the chance?” Do those of you with experience in these matters think my husband was right, was the poor bird just making a completely understandable run for it? Or was it really the homing instinct – ten minutes, ten days, ten weeks, ten months or ten years – it doesn’t make a whit of difference -- they’ll try to go “home”. But doesn't being a feral make a difference in the strength of the homing instinct? I figure if the ferals have such strong instincts, they'd be racing THEM, and wouldn't have developed an entirely new breed!

I’m just so worried that some of my birds will try to fly back to Missoula. It’s a long, dangerous journey, and I’ll never even know if they made it and are all right. I love them, I want them to be happy, and I dread keeping anyone a “prisoner”. I just don’t want to do that to any creature! But on the other hand, I don’t want to allow my birds to make a dangerous journey over predator-filled mountains in the middle of winter!

I just want to find a way to gently persuade my beloved flock that staying at the new home might be a good idea. I assume such persuasion will take some time, of course.

Any of you who have experience in these matters – what would you do? Any advice or suggestions will be deeply appreciated.

Respectfully,

Kay
[email protected]


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hello Kay

Welcome to the forum. I hope now that you've joined you'll add your expertise to it since you rehab pigeons. We can always use additional information.

My husband and I also strictly deal with feral rehabbing and I can only tell you what we have experienced. We live within a half-mile of the best release site you could ask for - plentiful grain, ponds, shelter. We thought this was the ideal place to release some of our rehabbed birds, however, they nearly beat us back home every time so we just gave up releasing them at that location. We now take them to another location across town and have never had one return. That leads me to believe they can home within a certain area but not all. However, it constantly worries me, everytime we release, that the birds will not stay at that location and will try to find their way home. We don't have much choice because we have to release them and give them a chance at survival because we can't keep all that we have cared for.

We have some "keepers" that will stay with us always but they are never allowed out to fly because of the hawk problem in our area. I don't see it as being a prisoner because they all seem very content.

To me, I simply wouldn't run the risk at least for many months (if ever) until your birds get used to the area.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Hello and welcome to Pigeon Talk*

Do any of you know whether my healthy birds – both indoor and outdoor birds – will try to return to their old home, which won’t even be there anymore? 

*Yes, that is a possibility. If they have familiarized themselves with those surroundings they will be confused possibly get lost when released. They are not even distance trained as homers are, so they would not even begin to remember areas they have never been to.*

Will they attempt to leave the new home, even if they have a mate and babies? 

*Having babies and a mate is not a guarantee they will come back if allowed to fly.*

Are the ferals more attached to a piece of georgraphy than they are to their flock, mates and babies? Are ferals’ homing instincts as powerful as the homing pigeons’? Does anyone think it will be possible to resettle these birds, so that I can eventually allow them outside at the new place? 

*We don't actually know how strong the homing instinct is in feral pigeons, but they do have the instinct. Homing pigeons are gradually TRAINED to fly long distances, it doesn't happen automatically, that is why they can find their homes from 500 miles away..*

I know that the owners of racing lofts speak of “prisoners”, which are birds that have been rehomed to a new loft and therefore cannot ever be allowed outside, or else they'll return "home". They’re kept in loft/aviary set-ups. I just read one such fancier’s remarks that she knew of an instance where a “prisoner” bird, kept in such a setup, accidentally got out, and returned to his old home AFTER TEN YEARS! 

*Pigeons that have learned to rehome, are actually the ones that have successfully learned to find their new homes, and not go back to the former home. Yes, there are cases of birds who were kept wrongfully by someone, and when the bird got out/escaped after many years it went to its original home. Those birds were kept prisoner, as they accidentally came home to the wrong loft, and then forced to stay. *


My husband pointed out to me, “Well, under those circumstances, wouldn’t you leave if you ever got the chance?” Do those of you with experience in these matters think my husband was right, was the poor bird just making a completely understandable run for it? 

*That bird definitely had a strong homing instinct* 

But doesn't being a feral make a difference in the strength of the homing instinct? 

*Not necesassarily, they may be some physical difference and homers are trained. I had the opportunity to measure the wing span of one of my homers wings next to a feral pigeon, and there was a great difference in size, and strength. They are quite different in many aspects, and then again the same in other ways
*

*Homing pigeons are specially trained to home, I wouldn't take a chance releasing your feral pigeons.*

*Your birds aren't prisoners because they live with you, it is just going to be confusing them if you let them out in different surroundings, there is a great chance they will get lost. *

*I have had pigeons that NEVER rehomed to a new house, then I have had one who rehomed after two weeks, but you should have seen where she was from. She was happy to get out of that home. Then I have actually settled some with mate and babies, and released them. But I had the option of picking them up from the former owner, so it wasn't a problem.

Some will, some won't, it is a gamble.*

*If they were my birds, I wouldn't let them free fly after the move, but I would build them a nice big aviary to fly in.
*


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## Kay Elgee (Mar 8, 2005)

Welcome to the forum. I hope now that you've joined you'll add your expertise to it since you rehab pigeons. We can always use additional information.

Thank you so much for your reply, and the insight you've shared with me. I’m happy to help in any way I can, but I’m certainly no expert!

My husband and I also strictly deal with feral rehabbing and I can only tell you what we have experienced. We live within a half-mile of the best release site you could ask for - plentiful grain, ponds, shelter. We thought this was the ideal place to release some of our rehabbed birds, however, they nearly beat us back home every time so we just gave up releasing them at that location. We now take them to another location across town and have never had one return. That leads me to believe they can home within a certain area but not all. However, it constantly worries me, everytime we release, that the birds will not stay at that location and will try to find their way home. We don't have much choice because we have to release them and give them a chance at survival because we can't keep all that we have cared for.


My original post was already over long, so I didn’t mention everything! I have taken birds and released them near feral flocks. Most I’ve never seen again. Others were back before I was. The odd thing is, some that I've never seen again I had released within three blocks of home. Others I've released across town and they're back before I am. So I don't know if it's the distance or just the individual's homing ability, but I'd guess the latter! 

Most of my returnees were babies who’d grown up in my home. Eventually, most of even those babies do leave, it just takes them awhile to decide to do so – two or three months, sometimes longer. One day they’ll just be on the roof and then BAM! They take off like a shot, usually after some passing pigeon, and I never see them again. It’s usually very sudden, and without a backward glance. Some come by once in a while to visit. Like I said though, most I never see again. It's hard, not knowing what happens to them, but that's just the way it is. It takes heart to love pigeons, doesn't it?

We have some "keepers" that will stay with us always but they are never allowed out to fly because of the hawk problem in our area. I don't see it as being a prisoner because they all seem very content.


We have hawk problems here, too, not to mention a few eagles, cats, dogs, people with BB (and other) guns, and the crows are outright vicious toward injured pigeons. There will be even more predator problems in a community as rural as Plains. It's in the middle of vast wilderness (Glacier National is less than 100 miles away!) But at least I know Plains has a feral pigeon population, and the folks there don't seem to mind them.

I don’t consider the pigeons in my home, especially the unreleasables, to be prisoners, either. But the ones who live outdoors – they’re used to coming and going as they please, as are a few of the healthy, indoor individuals. If I have to keep them in an aviary, no matter how large, I’m going to feel really guilty about it. But considering the response below from Treesa Gray, I don’t think I’ll have a choice. They won’t make it back to Missoula from Plains, I’m sure. And even if they do – then what? They’ll hang around whatever mobile home is on the old lot, and that could be dangerous if the new people aren’t amenable. And that’s only the least of the worries.

To me, I simply wouldn't run the risk at least for many months (if ever) until your birds get used to the area.

Yeah, that’s pretty much the conclusion I’m coming to – I’ll probably have to keep them permanently enclosed. I’m not real happy about that, and neither is my husband. He hates keeping anything constantly caged, as do I. I had parakeets as a child. When I met him, he made it clear that the one animal he wouldn’t have is a bird, because one has to keep them caged. And I agreed with him, but the first injured pigeon that bumbled and fell into our lives changed that. It was OK, though, because most of our rehabbed pigeons don’t want to go out because they’re vulnerable and know it, while the other, healthier birds could come and go as they pleased. Our move is going to change all that, though.


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## Kay Elgee (Mar 8, 2005)

*Thank you for your advice*

Dear Treesa,

Thank you so much for your expert opinion and advice.

After reading your reply, I guess I'm going to have to build a very large aviary for them. It really sounds like they'll be running a grave risk if I release them in the new area, even after many months. We're thinking of running a full length awning the length of our mobile, so it would be about 12' x 70', and completely enclosing it with heavy guage fencing. 

I do have one question for you. You said you have released some with mates and babies, but had the option of picking them up from the former owners if necessary. I gather that you did have to do that on occasion, which is to say that some pigeons will actually leave a mate and babies just to go back home! Would they never have returned if you didn't go get them? So much for the "mating for life" stuff. I've had pigeons abandon one mate for a new one, leaving an inconsolable, grief-stricken ex-mate, and I've seen them cheat with any willing partner whose own mate wasn't watching; but I've also seen utter love and devotion. 

I had one bird who was dying -- after trying EVERYTHING we could think of, there was nothing left for my vet and me to do -- and his mate sat with him keeping watch, never leaving his side, not even to eat. After he died in my arms, we both mourned for weeks. She rebuffed all advances from other males for months. I guess SHE wouldn't try to fly to her old home from Plains, if she was still "married" to her first (and my second) love!

I guess it _is_ a gamble. Considering what I know about the relationships between my mated birds, I can make a good guess who'd abandon a mate and babies, and who wouldn't! But I'm not taking any chances.

Thanks again!
Kay


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There is a procedure for re-homing birds to a new place that I've heard of. It involves either clipping their wings to the point where they can barely fly or using some technique of tying the feathers together with thread to accomplish the same purpose. After some months of not being able to fly well enough to leave and coming inside the loft or whatever at night, they eventually learn that the new place is home. When they can finally fly again, they don't bother going to the old place. I've never done that but you could research the technique. I heard it from a friend who grew up with pigeons in India and did it as a kid.

Pidgey


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## Kay Elgee (Mar 8, 2005)

*Clipping wings -- what a great idea!*

Dear Pidgey,

What a great idea!(Unless you're pigeon, of course  ) I most certainly will look into that. There's a great vet here in Missoula, and he may be able to show me how to restrict their flight without taking it completely away.

Several of my birds already have pretty restricted flight, either that or they're disabled enough (they limp severely, are sight impaired, etc) that they feel very vulnerable outside, rarely go out, and don't go anywhere when they do. Now, since that's _their_ reaction to their disabilities, maybe that's how my non-vulnerable, healthy birds will react if they suddenly find themselves unable to fly very well. 

On the other hand, since some birds return to their old homes even after years of captivity in an aviary -- well I guess, after they regain their abilities to fly, my birds just may try to return to Missoula after all. But it's worth looking into, that's for sure.

I had another thought. I'm wondering if anybody can give me any advice about this idea: My vet told me that, if I spay and neuter my flock, they may lose the drive to home, though it will probably weaken their pair-bonds. I'm not sure what the ramifications of that will be . . .

I'm a great believer in spaying and neutering, and I'm thinking maybe it's time to spay and neuter my birds, especially if it would improve their health (it's really hard on the females to always be laying eggs) and encourage them to stay in their new home, to boot. I haven't done it for many complex, emotional reasons (e.g., they seem to live for their babies, dote on them endlessly, and what else do they have? They can't live a normal pigeon life . . . etc.) but I guess I just have to get over it and do the right thing. At least, I hope it's the right thing. Being a human steward of another's life is such an overwhelming responsibility, sometimes.

Does anybody have any knowledge about spaying/neutering pigeons, and whether it would help? To keep them home, that is?

Thanks again, Pidgey, for your great idea! I will certainly look into it.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond to me. I am so deeply grateful!

Kay


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Kay

You mentioned building an aviary structure at the back of your home. If you do, make sure you use l/4" hardware cloth to enclose it and not fencing wire. You need the smallest holes available to keep any predator from getting in or grabbing a leg through the larger wire.


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## Kay Elgee (Mar 8, 2005)

*Elective Surgery*

Dear Nona,

Thank you so much for your insight. Your point is well-taken. 

First, let me just say that, as it is, I'll probably go with wing clipping, as suggested by Pidgy, if I can find a way that reduces their flight, rather than eliminating it. Nothing sadder than a bird that can't fly. I know, because I live with two of them!

I do realize that any surgery performed on any creature, including us, involves risks. However, I have had _necessary _surgery performed on more than a few of my birds, and NONE have suffered any ill-effects. I realize there is an element of luck in that, but it's a also an intelligent, well-reasoned and calculated risk. I guess my vets, Dr. Shoni Card and Dr. Mark Kleitz, are two of the handful of vets in the country with the skills necessary.

Missoula is a relatively small town, but its beauty and lifestyle attract a lot of quality professionals, including top-drawer physicians and veterinarians.

As for $$ signs in their eyes -- trust me, I know all about that. I lived in another, much larger, city in another state for nine years, and never in all that time found a vet whose main concern wasn't money! I can't tell you the misdiagnoses and miscommunications I suffered, some of which were ultimately fatal. They NEVER took the time to talk to me in language a layman understands -- and that's when they bothered to talk to me at all. One charged me $125 to _clip a dog's toenail (that's right -- one toenail!)_. I won't say where, because I don't want to upset anyone or start a debate. 

The clinic where Dr. Card works charges less than any veterinary clinic I've ever gone to; they often don't charge us anything for consultations and short visits. So I don't think money is a motivation here. And all the vets there actually take the time to discuss things with me in terms I can understand. They'll even just talk to me about general matters! 

Anyway, I have one bird whose leg was so badly injured, it needed two surgeries, and to have a pin installed. She's permanently lame, but Dr. Card saved her leg from what looked like an otherwise certain amputation.

I've had to have surgeries on injured wings, legs, beaks, feet and so on. Unlike spaying/neutering, they were necessary, of course. But they were all successful. Dr. Card performs vasectomies on roosters and open heart surgery on lab rats (one time another vet told me, "It's a fine line between putting a rat to sleep and killing it.") I think I can trust her. Oh, and none of these surgeries cost more than $50. 

I probably won't have such mass-surgery performed unless I hear from someone who can tell me whether it will work or not because, Nona, you're right. It's not something to take lightly, or address in a cavalier fashion. But I AM being overrun with babies, I don't have the heart to separate devoted mates from each other (it drives them nuts, anyway), and cracking eggs isn't 100% foolproof. I end up with _at least _three or four babies a season. I adore them, I really do, and I help raise them by keeping everything clean and tidy, but geez, enough already! 

And if spaying/neutering will reduce their desire to home, it may ultimately save their lives. So if anybody out there has any experience with this, one way or the other, please let me know. 

And if anyone knows about the type of clipping Pidgy referred to, I'd really appreciate learning about that! At least a bird can come back from clipped wings.

Thanks again, Nona. I appreciate your advice and concern. 

Kay


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Hi and welcome to the forum. Most of us control population by giving them wooden or "dummy" eggs to lay on (which you may know about). That way, the female is able to continue laying ON eggs, without having to lay them, and they do go through the whole process of laying on them which keeps them busy (and content) for awhile. This is much better for the hen's health. Eggs that are laid can be taken the first day and they won't be infertile, so you don't have to worry about killing potential babies.  Again, you may know all of this, so disregard what you do know. As for the aviary, if that wasn't a typo and you're actually building a 12' x 70' aviary, that is the largest I've ever heard of other than rescue centers. I think your birds would be absolutely content in such an enormous amount of room! My birds are mostly unreleasable and so I don't fly them, but there are so many dangers that it's always risky (as you have seen, I'm sure). An aviary as huge as the one you're talking about should be just perfect, and I seriously doubt you would have any unhappy birds in that situation. Hardware cloth was mentioned, and I have used a chicken wire, with the smallest holes (1/4 inch, much smaller than regular 1" chicken wire), to prevent mice and rats from getting in. Hopefully some of this helps, and good luck with everything!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As to spaying a hen, it's a little more involved than with a cat. You can't take the ovaries because they're too close to a major artery (stuck to it, actually) but you can't simply disable the oviduct because the ripened egg nuclei will end up dumping into the abdominal cavity if it can't be sent out the oviduct. Therefore, about the only way to do it is to remove the oviduct which will cause the ovaries to atrophy. While that's a simple-enough surgery, it's not without risk.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Kay Elgee said:


> I do have one question for you. You said you have released some with mates and babies, but had the option of picking them up from the former owners if necessary. I gather that you did have to do that on occasion, which is to *say that some pigeons will actually leave a mate and babies just to go back home! Would they never have returned if you didn't go get them?*
> Kay



I'm sorry I did not see your question earlier.

Their instinct to home to their former coop was stronger then the bond with the mate, and I never would have released them if I didn't have the option to pick them up. They would not have flown back on their own.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Kay Elgee said:


> ...We're thinking of running a full length awning the length of our mobile, so it would be about 12' x 70', and completely enclosing it with heavy guage fencing.
> 
> Kay


Kay, I'm drooling over your flight pen!!! It sounds WONDERFUL!!!! I have three older couples who have daytime access to a 6'x18" flight pen. (I wish it was longer.) Most of their active time they spend puttering around on the ground or flitting to one perch or another. The only time they would really make use of a larger flight pen is during courtship or right after a bath. Good luck with your move!


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## Kay Elgee (Mar 8, 2005)

*12' x 70' aviar is no typo!*

Hi again, Everyone!

Thank you all so much for your comments and advice. All of you really are giving me such aid and comfort! I’ll try to respond to everyone’s comments. Please forgive me if I overlook someone’s.

See! There ARE some good things about mobile homes! We have a 16'x70' mobile and plan on running a 12' wide awning the full length of it on the long side facing into the back yard and fencing it completely in, making a huge aviary. So, the dimensions are not a misprint. I'm inexperienced with lofts and aviaries, so was unaware that these dimensions are so unusual. I'm glad that it will probably make my birds more than happy. After all, even with the freedom they currently have, they hardly ever use it. I've even found myself joking that wings seem to be a waste on pigeons. God should have given them to penguins! 

The yard itself will also be completely privacy fenced, and we intend to make sure that whatever fencing we use on both the yard and, especially, the aviary is as predator-proof as we can get it. I was, however, only thinking of the larger predators (racoons, foxes, etc) and wasn't thinking of mice and rats. I'll be sure to get the heaviest guage hardware cloth with the smallest holes possible. I have to snake-proof, too. Let me think . . . why did I want to move to the country? Oh, yeah, I have a mule . . .

Rather than getting dummy eggs, I very gently crack the eggs so they don't (usually) hatch. But using dummy eggs would definitely be better if it keeps them from laying any eggs at all, or even if it just reduces the number they do lay. 

I've made an appt. to speak with my vet about my options: spay, neuter, wing clipping, etc. I'll let you all know what she advises, and what we decide, if you are interested. From what Pidgey just wrote above, I don’t think spaying will be much of an option. But I do have put a stop to all these babies. The more babies, the less room I have for rehabbing, and I know it really isn’t good for my hens’ health. 

I’m sort of unnerved by the fact that their homing instinct seems to actually be stronger than their pair bond. However, could it be that they are actually trying to return to an original mate, maybe even one that was, perhaps, of their own choosing? I could see a pigeon trying to get back to a “first love”, no matter how long it had been paired to a new mate. Is that a possibility?

Thank you again for your advice and insights. You've all been so gracious and supportive. I really am glad I came here!

Kay


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## *ADRIAN* (Jun 3, 2005)

hope u solve your problem and get your pigeons in a much healthier state of min


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