# Alice not well again



## Reti

This is the big white King pigeon that had the post egg-laying paralysis back in January.
She stopped laying altogether. She is 8 now. Might be her age.
Today I noticed again that she won't stand and I took a look at her. Both her knee joints are swollen, they are huge and feel nodular. Also her one toe where it joins the foot is swollen and continues to get worse.
She looks unwell and tries not to stand.
She is on a heating pad and that is all I can think of right now, I did give her a garlic capsule and put topically Allicidin.
She is eating and drinking and poops are ok but she lost 90gr from when I last weighed her.
I am thinking of gout, but not sure how it manifests in birds, she doesn't have any tophi.

I took some pics, but they are not that good. When Lee gets back I will try to get some better ones.

Reti


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## Guest

Reti,
It's hard to tell anything from the pictures but if it's gout, you should be seeing yellowish deposits in those joints.


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## Reti

I know the pics are not the best. I don't see any yellow deposits. 

Reti


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## Guest

Reti,
What would some of the other possibilities be? Arthriitis or even a bacterial arthritis? Total kidney failure? Why the weight loss? Because she's in pain so her appetite is down? She would need a blood workup.


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## Skyeking

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear about Alice, e-mail me if you want me to recommend some stuff.

Is she still seperated from her mate, or back with him?


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## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

I am sorry to hear Alice is have some troubles.

I was just reading about gout in Clinical Avian Medicine and Surgery, Harrison & Harrison and it says that birds with suspected gout should be placed on antibiotic therapy, does not say which, but I suspect that Baytril would be a good choice. Also, it says that gout medicine, Allopurinol, has been used with varying results.

Reti, I would try the Baytril and if this did not prove effective I would then try Doxycycline or Minocycline as both of these drugs are known for their tissue penetration and are the drugs that people who are trying antibiotic therapy for RA (Rheumatoid Arthritis) use against the Mycoplasma than some feel is the causative pathogen.

Ron


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## mr squeaks

HI Reti!

Darn, I'm so sorry to hear about Alice! So stressful since they can't talk English and we don't always understand pigeonese!

I tend to be a natural product advocate personally. Of course, nothing beats tests that could possible pinpoint the basic problem and then go from there!

SENDING HEALING HUGS AND THOUGHTS to YOU BOTH!!

I know you will keep us updated!


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## Reti

Thank you for your input.
I emailed my vet, hope I can take her in tomorrow, or at least p/up some meds. I don't have Baytril. And doxy I think I have some, but must look for it, I am not sure.
I saw her eat every day. She hasn't touched her grit though for days. So, I don't know why she lost all that weight. Last time I weighted her in January, so I don't even know in how much time she lost all that weight.
She is separated from her mate and she loves the heating pad, but hasn't eaten in her cage yet. I just gave her some water for now.
She also seems to breathe open mouthed. She looks pretty sick.
I am not sure but I think her one eye has some yellow discharge.
I guess it could be bacterial arthritis or paratyphoid (I hope not), don't think osteoarthritis though, cause the onset is too acute.

Reti


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## jazaroo

Well, Reti from the sounds of it I would find the Doxy and start her on this until you vet can see her, there will be no conflict if he switches her to the Baytril.

Ron


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## Pidgey

Count the resting respiration rate. If it's 30, then the respiratory is probably upper. If it's definitely higher, then you're looking at lower respiratory or anemia. Get out the stethoscope (preferably a pediatric one) and listen over the sides of the back up near the elbows.

Pidgey


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## Reti

I have doxy 500mg. How much do I give her?
Also counting her respirations is impossible. When I go near her she starts hyperventilating and grunting as for the stetoscope, forget it.

Reti


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## Reti

I was able to count her respirations, 28 breaths/min.
I see now why she has her beak a little open, her jaw joint is swelling. I am totally panicked now. 
What do I give her, cipro or doxy? 

Reti


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## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

You know what Reti, if you have Cipro I would go with that, 2-2.5mg per 100gm BID. For the Doxycycline, 8-12mg per lb. BID. I would start at the higher range. I am thinking if this is somehow Paratyphoid you will be better of with the Cipro, plus it will cover many of the respiratory pathogens. Pidgey's your man for respirations/min., but this does not sound too bad to me. According to this http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Condor/files/issues/v070n04/p0358-p0365.pdf it is in normal range.

Ron


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## Reti

Well, I can't find the Cipro, I guess I am out of it. I need to go through my medicine cabinet soon and see what I have and what I need to order. But I do have tons of doxy.
Still no reply from my vet, I hope he is not on vacation.

Reti


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## jazaroo

Well start the Doxy and lets see what happens tomorrow.

Ron


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## Reti

Thanks Ron and everybody.
I'll keep you updated.

Reti


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## Pidgey

It looks like swelling is cropping up in all kinds of places (both legs, jaw), huh? The respiration is good but this is turning really serious really fast.

Pidgey


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## TerriB

So sorry poor Alice is having problems again. Hope you are able to find the cause and a cure quickly for this sweet girl!


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## Pidgey

Reti,

Read the third section of chapter 33 in the Big Book--it's about gram+ stuff.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I was thinking specifically of the Staphylococcus entry around page 966. It talks about the osteitis, tenovaginitis, arthritis and osteomyelitis. Can't be for sure but it's a definite possibility. Maybe you brought something home from the hospital.

Pidgey


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## Reti

I found the part about paratyphoid. The symptoms fit Alice's, arthritis, especially in pigeons, conjunctivitis and other.
I am still reading.

Reti


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## Reti

Pidgey said:


> I was thinking specifically of the Staphylococcus entry around page 966. It talks about the osteitis, tenovaginitis, arthritis and osteomyelitis. Can't be for sure but it's a definite possibility. Maybe you brought something home from the hospital.
> 
> Pidgey


I didn't get there yet, will do so in a minute. But I hope I didn't bring anything home from the hospital. I always take off my scrubs the minute I get in the door and throw them in the washer. The shoes are also put in a box in the laundry room and of course I wash my hands thoroughly before I touch anything in the house. 

Today is she is standing better, but still has all the swelling and I am trying to see if she eats on her own. She pecked at her seeds some but not much. But she is also stressed being separated from her mate and having changed her environment.

Reti


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## jazaroo

Well, Reti in the morning I always say, a bit better is better than a bit worse. Let's see if you will be able to get some Cipro or Baytril today. Keflex works well against Staph as well. I think as well, that as I mentioned before, I would start treatment at the high end of the dosing range.

Ron


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## Pidgey

I've always wondered whether a stressed bird releases enough stress hormones (cortisol; corticosteroids) to cause a temporary decrease in symptoms, which could in turn cause an increase in the organisms' replication rate. The stress hormones are immunosuppressive, after all.

Pidgey


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## Reti

Stress does lower the immune system, but there is nothing I can do about it now. If I put her with her mate. all he does is pecking and driving her, I don't think she needs that right now.
I have Keflex, Lee just had to take it, so we have some left overs. I am trying to reach my vet and take her in today, so far no luck.

Reti


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## jazaroo

Reti, just in case, Keflex: 35-50 mg/kg qid.

Ron


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## Pidgey

I'd go looking for a less frequent dosing protocol, if possible. Seems like I usually dose it BID but I don't remember the number off the top of my head.

Anyhow, about the stress, I know it immunosuppresses, but I was specifically wondering if it did it enough that you'd see a temporary decrease in the symptoms like the decreased mobility in arthritic conditions. For instance, cortisol production goes up, local swelling and inflammation goes down, mobility returns temporarily or even longer, the presentation turns from acute to chronic... that kind of thing.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Pidgey, I agree, when I use Keflex I dose BID at the mid range of the dosing scale. I was just giving the published guideline, as I am not always comfortable telling people to do what I do. In this case I might do TID the first day, then go to BID.

Ron


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## Reti

Thanks Ron and Pidgey.
Good point on the cortisol/mobility.
She is standing but not eating, so I am feeding her and she looks awful.
My vet called in sick so, no vet visit today. He must be really very sick if he didn't even email me back. 
I'll stick w/ the doxy right now and hopefully tomorrow he will be back in the clinic.

Reti


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## TerriB

Pidgey said:


> I've always wondered whether a stressed bird releases enough stress hormones (cortisol; corticosteroids) to cause a temporary decrease in symptoms, which could in turn cause an increase in the organisms' replication rate.
> Pidgey


Very interesting theory - certainly something to keep in mind when symptoms shift.


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## Reti

We went to the vet today and we know as much as we did yesterday.
He tried to take an aspirate from the joint and all that came out was blood. He thought he had hit a vessel and tried another joint, same thing and the third the same. Also the blood coagulated instantly, which he thought was very unusual.
He also took a fecal for cultures and sent out a DNA for Salmonella.
The WBC count was normal, that is also weird, if it was infection it should be up.
Until Wednesday we don't know nothing, that is when the culture results will be back and we tke it from there.
She lost another 10gr, she is down to 480 from 590.
She did eat some when we got home.
The dr is inclined towards staph infection and gave me clavamox for now and neomycin eye ointment for the conjunctivitis.

Reti


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## Guest

Reti,
Do you have any literature that discusses the causes for a rise in the platelet count?


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## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

Thanks for the update, I am glad Alice was seen by the vet.

I guess there's not too much to do until the test results get back. I would imagine it either has to be a staphylococcus infection, as your vet feels, or salmonellosis which he is testing for. The Clavamox should do well in treating the staph and although not the drug of choice for salmonellosis, still have activity against it. I am thinking it wouldn't hurt, and you probably are, in continuing to supplement Alice for a while to make sure she is getting enough nourishment, until she is more back to herself.

Please keep us informed, all the best,

Ron


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## Reti

pigeonperson said:


> Reti,
> Do you have any literature that discusses the causes for a rise in the platelet count?


I am trying to find something in my medical books.
The only thing I can think of is Polycythemia vera, which causes a rise in red blood cells and sometimes in all blood cell lines. But this is a rare disease even in humans so more unlikely in birds, I guess.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Reti,

Well I'm glad some tests were run.

Meanwhile I would continue your research and supportive care and go with your gut instincts as you know what you are doing.

Thank you for the update.


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## littlestar

Reti, I'm so sorry to hear about your Alice, and hope they find out what is wrong with her.


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## Reti

Thanks Ron, Treesa and littlestar.
I hope we get to the bottom of this. I do supplement her feedings with Harrison's formula.

Reti


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## mr squeaks

Thanks for the update, Reti.

I will continue to send HUGS and HEALING THOUGHTS for ALICE.

Such a worry when our loved ones are not up to par! Please take care of yourself too!

With Love,
Shi
&
Mr. Squeaks


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## Reti

Thanks Shi and Mr. Squeaks. 
She is somewhat better than she she was three days ago, and very upset she has to spend her days in the living room instead of being with her mate. I look at her and she puffs up and hisses at me, she bit me really hard this morning. Oh well.

Reti


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## Whitefeather

Reti said:


> Thanks Shi and Mr. Squeaks.
> She is somewhat better than she she was three days ago, and very upset she has to spend her days in the living room instead of being with her mate. I look at her and she puffs up and hisses at me, *she bit me really hard this morning*. Oh well.
> 
> Reti


Good Morning Reti,
I'm glad to hear Alice has improved some.  

Ouch!!  
As much as that hurt, it's a good sign. Alice has some 'spunk' in her.  
Pij'ette will nip at me & catch my skin with just the tip of her beak. It does hurts.
I keep telling her she is biting the hand that feeds her. She doesn't seem to care in the least because she knows she will get fed whether she bites me or not.  

I hope Alice continues to improve.

Cindy


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## jazaroo

Hi Reti,



> She is somewhat better than she she was three days ago,


This is good news to read, and the bite, while it may hurt as Cindy says, is also a good sign. Please keep us updated.

Ron


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## Guest

Reti,
I spent a lot of time on the web looking for reasons for high platelet counts but the only thing I could come up with is that there are certain infections that can cause that condition. They don't mention the infections so what good was that?


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## Reti

Hi pp, yeah that is helpful I hate it when they do that.

I don't know why they are so mean sometimes. They like to bite for now reason, or at least I don't see one. It is nice to see her like that though.

Reti

Wow, we have a major flood. I went into the laundry room and find myself half foot deep in water (my foot). I go into the bird room (next to the laundry room) and the carpet is soaked, also the halway and part of the living room.They think it's from our next door neighbors, they are breaking into their apartment right now. Now how the heck am I going to clean up and dry the bird room, I don't know. I guess I have a long weekend ahaid of me.
Any suggestions are welcome.


Reti


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## Guest

Reti,
Here comes the mold. Try and get them into a dry room.


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## Charis

Do you have an indoor/ outdoor shop vac? That will do the job. If I were there, I'd help. I know how frustrating that kind of thing is. Usually seems to happen just during or after a bunch of other unexpected siuations or events. Last thing you need.
I hope flooding is stopped.


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## feralpigeon

Yes, a wet/dry shop vac and once done w/that, employ a space heater and fan. Try and find out what the source of the water was. If it was an over flowing toilet, it means more stringent 'abatement' on the part of the owner than if just an overflowing kitchen sink or the like. I think this is something 
you could call in help with and deduct from your rent as this is not your responsibility to deal with. You'll also need to be careful about mold growing in the sheetrock where it meets the floor as well as the carpet. Could be it will
have to be removed and replaced.

I'm sorry you are going through this right now Reti. If only we could "Transport"
via a magic beam I'm sure you'd have an army of pigeon lovers helping you to
bail out the water and clean up.

fp


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## Reti

Thanks pp and Charis.
I don't have a shop vac. What a mess. I am just taking a break and drying all the towels. 
I moved most birds out, I have two nesting in the bookcase and I am out of carriers and cages anyways. 
I am thinking after It is almost dry I will wash the carpet with Basic G. It is supposed to kill molds also.
If it doesn't work we will have to change it. What a mess!!!!
The neighbors left the shower running and the shower cutain fell into the tub and closed the drain. Nice, thanks neighbors.

Reti


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## Whitefeather

So sorry to hear about the flood Reti.  
I would think the management would get someone in there pronto & take care of things.

Meanwhile, is there anyone nearby that could 'foster' your pijjies until your apt. is dried out?

Cindy


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## jazaroo

Reti,

If the water is still deep enough, you can put some household bleach in it and swish it through all over with a broom, I did this years ago when we had a flood and no mold developed.

Ron


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## Reti

Thank you so much for the advice.
I will ask tomorow for a fan for the pijie room, They are using it for the big hallway, which is sooo flooded, it's funny. The laundry room wasn't a big deal and I did bleach it and it's dry now. 
The carpet is a problem cause I can't keep the pijies in the cages in the bathroom forever. Luckily it's only one and a half room. The bedroom and the rest of the living room is ok, so are both baths.
I don't think I can bleach the carpet, can I? What if I buy bleach for colors? I can wash the carpet with it tomorrow.
Wouldn't the Basic G be enough.

With all this mess I didn't even take a look at Alice. 

Reti


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## jazaroo

Reti, unless the carpet is wool, it will be made from either a blend of or single synthetic fibers. I would think most of these would be colour fast, especially since you will not be using a high concentration, just enough to persuade the mold not to develop. You can always try a a higher concentration on a small test area to ensure the colour fastness.

Ron


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## Reti

I will use the bleach, as you mentioned. After all it is not my carpet, so what do I care They will change it anyways after we move out.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Oh Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear about the flood your neighbors created, what a mess. I sure hope you can get it dried up and can get some rest this weekend.

Yeah, those shop vacs are sure handy, you should rent one and charge the neighbor for it.


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## Reti

Lol, Treesa, I should do that, but those ladies are nice, and most important their bedroom is next to the bird room and they never complained about the noise from my birds or my 7am vacuming (well, they get up early too).
It's getting better, I absorbed the excess water with towels and put the A/C as low as tolerable. Hmm, they could pay my electricity bill for having my drier running since 2pm non stop.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Well I'm glad most of it is dried up, and another day of fun and games are behind you. Yep, it would be nice if they helped with the electricity bill.


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## Reti

*Alice update*

Alice seems to be doing ok, much better than she was and she also gained a few grams.
I guess she is still in pain though, or doesn't feel 100%. The last times I kept her separated from the other birds, as soon as she felt better she let me know, she was pacing back and forth in her cage, now she is just sitting.

Also her joints are bruised now, I guess from the vet poking around trying to get a culture. And they are still swollen.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Reti said:


> Alice seems to be doing ok, much better than she was and she also gained a few grams.
> I guess she is still in pain though, or doesn't feel 100%. The last times I kept her separated from the other birds, as soon as she felt better she let me know, she was pacing back and forth in her cage, now she is just sitting.
> 
> Also her joints are bruised now, I guess from the vet poking around trying to get a culture. And they are still swollen.
> 
> Reti


Have you tried the Arnica for the swelling and bruising. 

I was just looking at my homeopathic guide, Here are a few more:

Calcarea phosphorica-joint pain with arthritis/reumatsm

Ruta graveolens-bruised pains in limbs,joints, bones, tendons, worse lying down, use after Arnica


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## Reti

She is getting arnica every day.
The other ones sound good too. I will have to go to W.O this week.
Can she have it w/the arnica at the same time?

Thank you

Reti


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## Skyeking

Reti said:


> She is getting arnica every day.
> The other ones sound good too. I will have to go to W.O this week.
> Can she have it w/the arnica at the same time?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Reti


The Ruta can be used after the Arnica. I'm not sure about the other. If you find it you can ask a clerk about the other one.


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## Reti

Trees Gray said:


> The Ruta can be used after the Arnica. I'm not sure about the other. If you find it you can ask a clerk about the other one.


The clerks at W.O., you must be kidding. They have no clue 

Reti


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## Maggie-NC

Oh Reti, I am so sorry about the flooding. I wish I could help.


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## Reti

Lady Tarheel said:


> Oh Reti, I am so sorry about the flooding. I wish I could help.


Thanks Maggie, the rest of the house is ok, the bird room is very humid, you can smell it. I had to put the birds back in cause tomorrow I have two exams and won't be home till late afternoon and they were already out of patience being kept in cages and carriers in the bathroom.
Luckily it is cool outside cause the heat and humidity were't helping. I scrubbed the carpet with vinegar for now and will wit until it dries and then bleach it.

Reti


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## TerriB

Reti said:


> ...I scrubbed the carpet with vinegar for now and will wit until it dries and then bleach it.
> Reti


So glad that Alice is feeling a bit better. I know that Walter will really bite hard if he feels I'm being rude or blocking him from doing what he wants.  

Is there a possibility that bleach would interact with the chemicals in the carpet and/or backing and create or give off something toxic?


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## Reti

TerriB said:


> Is there a possibility that bleach would interact with the chemicals in the carpet and/or backing and create or give off something toxic?


I don't know, have been thinking about it. I hold it off for now and see what happens with the carpet.
Will clean with more vinegar for now.

Alice is much better and is gaining weight. The joints are still the same though, but must be less painful since she is standing well now.

Reti


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## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

Although still not all the way back, I am glad to hear that Alice is making steady progress.

I should think the vinegar would be a good alternative for the mold.

All the best,

Ron


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## Reti

Well, 8 days later (not to mention the money spent at the vets) and we still have no results of the cultures or DNA. I am soooo mad. My vet is out. I called and talked to the girls and they assured me they have no results.
In the meantime Alice lives in the little cage away from her mate and everybody else and seems upset too. 
She gained some weight, her eye is good but the joints are still swollen. Actually most of the soft tissue swelling went down and now she has this huge joints, very hard to the touch. She is walking and standing well, so I guess they are not painful anymore.
My vet won't be back till Tuesday, but I will call back tomorrow, see, maybe the results come in overnight.

Reti


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## Pidgey

I have seen quite a few enlarged joints in my time. That one that I picked up under the underpass who still lives in the loft had an elbow like that and he was still a squeaker with a few of the little hairs at the time. Pitiful thing. His elbow stayed enlarged for a very long time but it finally began to get smaller when he started using it to fly.

My one vet told me (and I've said this before) that it's pretty tough to find anything in those joint aspirates. I just KNEW I'd find it swimming with bacteria but it was clearer than my water except for the occasional erythrocyte nuclei. He told me that you might find the colony if you scraped the inside of the skin or something like that. Or, maybe the infection had gotten into the end of the bones and expressed as osteomyelitis.

Pidgey


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## Reti

I am not good in describing what the joint looks like and I will try to get a good pic. The joint looks and feels lumpy. One of the inner sides of the epiphysis is double in size and bruised. Doesn't look like there is anything in there other than solid matter. It's strictly the joints that are affected, maybe some epihysial bone too, I don't know, doesn't look like osteomyelitis and it is rare it affects three bones.

I put her for a visit in with Lucky, her mate. Unfortunately she doesn't look happy, so I will take her back out. I didn't intend to leave her in there, but I thought I lift her spirits a bit by letting them see each other.
Poor Lucky is thrilled to have her back, poor baby.

Reti


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## Pidgey

The fact that it was going too many places was one of the reasons I thought it might be a Staph--the description in the book just sounded more applicable. Anyhow, that's exactly what happened to the bone end on Brownie (okay, so he didn't fare too well on names but LIN DID IT!!!)--it was the epiphysis of the proximal ulna and distal humerus that enlarged and they were definitely twice their normal size or larger. It may have been an infection in the actual bone or it may have been that the body deposited a bunch of calcium there to help wall off the infection, which later dissolved ever so slowly. That's the way it often appears in the older birds--it starts off as a softer, puffier lump and then seems to harden.

Pidgey


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## Reti

She is 8years old, is that old enough to develop such a bad arthritis?
Do pigeon get rheumatoid arthritis? Has anybody ever heard of it in a bird?

Reti


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## Pidgey

RA's autoimmune isn't it? I don't see why not. Use the Adobe Search tool and look through the Big Book.

Pidgey


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## Reti

Pidgey said:


> RA's autoimmune isn't it? I don't see why not. Use the Adobe Search tool and look through the Big Book.
> 
> Pidgey


I don't know if birds and other animals can get autoimmune diseases, never heard of it. Will do a search.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Reti,

Yes, they do, in fact they have anti-inflammatories for dogs and I have seen it in dog food.

You might try an anti-inflammatory, like a fish oil, and other omega 3's, 6, and 9 oils. Have you tried the cod liver oil?

Also the alflalfa, which is rich in trace minerals should also be continued.

Continue the garlic caps which inhibits the formation of free radicals which can damage joints.


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## Reti

Thank you, Treesa. There is definately more going on here than just a simple osteoarthritis. I just wish I had some labs already.
I didn't give her cod liver oil, will do so.

Reti


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## Pidgey

You know, I have to wonder these days... learning so much about arthritis of bacterial origin in birds, you just can't help but wonder that it could happen in us, as well.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is a lot of information about an infectious agent being a cause of RA. Although I am not a conspiracy theorist, you have to wonder sometimes why this information isn't more widely known.

Here are a few links:

http://arthritis.about.com/cs/antibiotic/a/antibiotictreat.htm
http://www.rheumatic.org/faq.htm

and there are many more sites by searching Rheumatoid Arthritis Antibiotics,

Ron


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## Reti

I am so confused now, I don't know what to think. I have never heard or been tought of this possibility, that immunologic diseases could be caused by something else other than ones self immune system. 
I must investigate this further, this is very intersting.

Reti


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## Skyeking

Reti said:


> I am so confused now, I don't know what to think. I have never heard or been tought of this possibility, that immunologic diseases could be caused by something else other than ones self immune system.
> I must investigate this further, this is very intersting.
> 
> Reti



Reti, Dr. Marshall also believes some auto-immune diseases actually are caused by either infections or toxins. There is scientific proof of that with Parkinsons and RA.


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## jazaroo

Reti, ever since reading the work of Dr. Barry Marshall and Dr. Robin Warren from Australia (don't know if this is the same Dr. Marshall Treesa is referring to), I have given the proposition that there are many diseases caused by yet unknown pathogenic processes much more weight and thought. 

As you may or my not know, Dr. Marshall's theory was that H-pylori was the cause of many instances of gastritis and peptic ulcers. He was ridiculed by the established medical establishment for his theory, this was in the 80s'. It was only after infecting himself with H-pylori and further research did his theory start to gain some traction. The end result was that he won the Nobel prize for Medicine in 2005 for his work on H-pylori and ulcers. This is a short version, but the story is very interesting to read. Antibiotic treatment for ulcers is now the accepted method of treatment in most instances.

Ron


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## feralpigeon

Regarding Helicobacter pylori and Drs. Warren and Marshall, here are a couple of interesting links:

http://cogsci.uwaterloo.ca/Articles/Pages/Ulcers.one.html

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2005/press.html

fp


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## Reti

I remember when we used to treat PUD (peptic ulcerative diseases) with antacids and the poor patients never really found relief and they were chronically ill, always on a diet etc.
Then H.pylori changed it all, three pills, 10 days and they were cured forever. 
I wish they would find the cause for all the other illnesses mentioned earlier.

Reti


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## Reti

Alice is not doing good. She lost again some weight and now the other eye started secreting. I stopped the antibiotic eye cream and started colloidal silver drops in her eye, it worked for me before so I hope it will work again for Alice. The antibiotic eye cream is not working obviously.
Her left knee joint is swollen and seems painful, the right is the same and the toe joint is swelling up again.

reti


----------



## TerriB

So sorry Alice is not doing well. You are doing an exemplary job of searching for possible solutions and support. Sure hope you are able to find something that will help her!


----------



## mr squeaks

TerriB said:


> So sorry Alice is not doing well. You are doing an exemplary job of searching for possible solutions and support. Sure hope you are able to find something that will help her!


I, too, SO feel the same!

I am really sorry to hear about relapses with Alice! Sure hope she can be helped AND cured!

Sending LOVE and HUGS, along with WARM HEALING THOUGHTS!


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

This is distressing news, as I was hoping Alice was continuing to improve. You may want to consider moving her to the Doxycycline you have ,as it may be more effective if she does have a resistant stain of Staph. Plus Doxycycline is active against Mycoplasma (RA).

http://tinyurl.com/2xf9rf

Please keep us updated.

Ron


----------



## Reti

Thank you Terri, Mr S, and Ron.
She is back on doxy and tube feedings.

Reti


----------



## Guest

Reti,
I would open up with both barrels with Alice and have your vet inject Doxy for three to four weeks, one injection per week. IM is far more effective than oral dosing. Anything that can swell the joints and cause eyes to infect has got to be a very bad infection.


----------



## Reti

pigeonperson said:


> Reti,
> I would open up with both barrels with Alice and have your vet inject Doxy for three to four weeks, one injection per week. IM is far more effective than oral dosing. Anything that can swell the joints and cause eyes to infect has got to be a very bad infection.


Yeah, I know it sounds bad.
My vet won't be back till Tuesday.

Reti


----------



## Guest

Reti,
This site mentions eyelids as well as joint inflammations in cases of Paratyphoid. I still believe this is a salmonella infection.

http://www.pipa.be/artikels/pi-account/paratyphoid.htm


----------



## Reti

Thanks PP.
The cultures came back negative. The salmonella DNA is still pending but they also tested for it in blood and feces and so far it doesn't show up.
Tomorrow my vet will be back and we'll see what he suggests of doing next. I am relieved, but also frustrated as we don't know what we are dealing with now.
We will know for sure what we are not dealing with by the end of the week when the DNA comes back. 

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

Did any of the aspirates come up with anything? It'd be neat if there was a blood test that analyzed any floating endotoxins and compared them against a database but I just don't think we do that yet. Waitin' on the future.

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

If it's viral, nothing can be done and I spent a good part of the day trying to fit the symptoms to a virus. The closest I came to was wet pox but that's very doubtful. It's probably not fungal so what's left has to be hit with an antibiotic, a strong and prolonged one. I'll stand by and wait along with everyone else.


----------



## Reti

The aspirates, blood cultures, fecal float and cultures came back negative.
It could be viral, we might never know. Might not even be infectious, remember the WBC were normal and she bled and coagulated excesively. Could be immunologic, cancer, leukemia maybe? I don't know and I don't know where to start looking it up.
She is an indoor bird, unlikely it is pox and I have seen wet pox, it didn't look anything like it. That bird had his legs covered with ulcerating blisters.
I appreciate the links and suggestions.
So far it seems unlikely she will recover on her own.

Reti


----------



## Charis

Reti, 
You must feel so helpless and frustrated.


----------



## Reti

Charis said:


> Reti,
> You must feel so helpless and frustrated.



I do, it is very frustrating. I feel I am not doing enough.
I will give her some time with her mate tomorrow, maybe that will cheer her up.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Reti,

You have done everything and more.

Why don't we review everything you have her on and see what we can add or change as far as supportive products go. It would be easy to incorporate a detox, and cleansing in her diet, as well as some others to support immune issues, liver, and anti-infammatories. It may be long term but certainly worth trying.


----------



## george simon

*Gout*

RETI, Sorry about your bird and hope the best.While I have not read all the posts so I don't know if Gout has been proposed. In the book FIT TO WIN by DR.WIM RETERS a vet and a pigeon racer.On page 257 he speaks of GOUT. Here is what he said "Gout is a metabolic disorder,characterised by the deposition of uric acid and urates in various parts of the body.In pigeons there two forms of the disease Synovial and Visceral gout.Visceral is very rare,and can only be seen on autopsy.(I will skip to the Synovial form)Synovial gout occures more readily, is very painful for the bird and the process is largely irreversible as the urate crystals once deposited are not readily reabsorbed.The urates are deposted around the tendons and joints and are visible through the overlying skin as focal pale areas.When the skin is incised the white pasty fluid oozes out." .............He gives no form of treatment. .GEORGE


----------



## Pidgey

Reti, do a search on "gout" in the Big Book. It sometimes occurs with Hypovitaminosis A or with Hypervitaminosis D3. You're not giving the bird too many vitamins, are you? Anyhow, causes are typically renal. It does say in the formulary that treating with Aspirin (look it up--page 458) helps. It's worth a try. Also, stop feeding the bird steak.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

Thanks everyone.

Gout was the first thing we thought about, but my vet dismissed it, he said it doesn't look like gout, plus nothing came out from the aspirate, other than blood. Ifit was gout, they would have seen the crystals.
Aspirin is a great antiinflammatory, I take it also for my sometimes painful joints.

I feel awful today, coming down with something again, I need to go lay down.

Reti


----------



## Reti

The Salmonella DNA came back today negative. At least we don't have to worry about treating all my birds now.
So, might be gout, hmm. She won't be happy to have no more steaks And no, she doesn't get too much vitamins, only twice a week.

I still feel lousy, hope tonight I can take a look in the big book.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks

Thanks for the updates, Reti!

Sure hope you BOTH FEEL BETTER SOON!

Sending WARM HEALING HUGS to help!!

Shi


----------



## Reti

Alice is still doing poorly and my vet hasn't emailed me back for a while now. 
One thing, she is eating, but that pretty much all she is doing and she is not gaining any weight. 
I put her back in the other room today cause I think her mate is a bit too much for her right now.
I am attaching some pics of her today.


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Reti,

I'm sorry to hear there is no further improvement nor that your vet is available. That has got to be so exasperating/frustrating.. just to mention a few words.

I hope you are feeling better today.

In regards to her pics, is her beak slightly open?

Have you got her on any probiotics, what is the latest regimen of products/meds you have got her on?


----------



## Feefo

I am sorry that Alice is still unwell Reti.

Earlier on you mentioned that she had a swelling in her jaw. Is that still there? Would that rule out a number of conditions?

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

Her jaw is still swollen and she does breath with her beak a little open, I think that might be due to her jaw.
She is still on everything she used to be except the antibiotics, which didn't help a bit, so I didn't see any point in giving them. Besides all her results are normal, no indication of infection.
This is so frustrating and I have the feeling I am loosing her.

Reti


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

I was hoping that Alice would have been feeling a little better by now. Reti, I wouldn't necessarily write off the antibiotic treatment just yet. Earlier in the thread, Alice did respond to the treatment with the Clavamox for a while, then it seemed to have lost its effectiveness. Since there is no placebo effect in animals, I take this as there may be a pathogen at work here, even though the tests have not pinned it down. The Clavamox and the Doxycycline just are not the right ones to perhaps clear it.

At this point I would consider trying Keflex, good tissue penetration and it covers gram positives and negatives and has some anaerobic coverage. I know you are feeling frustrated, but don't give up one her just yet. There is something causing this, we just don't know what yet.

Please keep us updated and all the best,

Ron


----------



## Reti

Thanks Ron,

I have keflex 500mg capsules, how much would I give her?

Reti


----------



## jazaroo

Reti, the recommendation is 35-50 mg/kg QID, but we talked a little about this earlier in the thread and I would go towards the higher end of the dose range BID.

Ron


----------



## Reti

jazaroo said:


> Reti, the recommendation is 35-50 mg/kg QID, but we talked a little about this earlier in the thread and I would go towards the higher end of the dose range BID.
> 
> Ron


Yeah, but I don't know how to mix it, the capsule in how much water?

Reti


----------



## jazaroo

Reti, mix it with 10mL of fluid, this will give you a concentration of 50mg per 1mL, Keflex I find does mix up nicely. I would use some syrup with the water, instead of water alone, this will help suspend the Keflex better when you draw a dose. You can use corn syrup, pancake syrup or even honey, just to give "body" to the mix.

Ron


----------



## Reti

Thanks Ron.
I usually mix it with water and light karo, works well.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

The newer formulary gives the BID dosage at 100 mg/kg, PO, BID. That's how I usually do it.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Thanks Pidgey for the updated dosing, Reti the Light Karo should work well.

Ron


----------



## TerriB

jazaroo said:


> ...You can use corn syrup, pancake syrup or even honey, just to give "body" to the mix.
> Ron


I'd read that honey should not be given to infants because it can carry botulism. Would it also be a problem for individuals with compromised immune systems?


----------



## jazaroo

Terri, this is a good question, so I did some reading on the question you posed. It seems that with infants a few things lead to them being susceptible to botulism poisoning. The immaturity of their digestive tract makes for an anaerobic atmosphere, which botulism favours, and this immature digestive tract also lacks the acidic production required to neutralize any errant botulism spores which honey can have. Both of these conditions are beneficial to the conditions botulism spores need to germinate and produce neurotoxins. A mature digestive system has the mechanisms in place to naturally counteract botulism toxin in these small amounts. By the way, these spores are not as a result of manufacturing contamination, but are sometimes picked up in micro amounts by the bees as they collect nectar to make their honey from plants, as these spores are ubiquitous in nature. 

It seems the references I could find put the date for refraining from feeding honey to infants is 12 months and I could find no instances of honey causing botulism in birds. The closest I got was a warning that sugar was better to use than honey in hummingbird feeders, the site said that a 1:4 mix was closer to nectar than honey, then went on to reference the honey and botulism in infants fact as another reason.

That being said, I think the Light Karo syrup that Reti ended up using is an ideal syrup to use to add "body" to a suspension.

Ron


----------



## TerriB

Plus the light Karo syrup is so good on waffles. 

Sure hope Alice can turn this around. I think this forum is one of the few places sharing information about the care of geriatric pigeons.


----------



## Pidgey

And there's no geriatric pigeon like a former rescue that was bad sick with something serious to begin with. This is the third time I've brought Pattie Cakers into the hospital this season.

Pidgey


----------



## TerriB

Pidgey said:


> And there's no geriatric pigeon like a former rescue that was bad sick with something serious to begin with. This is the third time I've brought Pattie Cakers into the hospital this season.
> 
> Pidgey


Oh, no! I'm so sorry Pattie Cakers is back in hospital again.  Hope she rallies quickly!


----------



## Pidgey

Well, check out The Mort Report for that news, Terri, but don't worry--she's in pretty good spirits if the beak marks on the back of my hand are any indication.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Reti, I was thinking of Alice this morning, how is she getting on?

Ron


----------



## Reti

Thanks Ron,

she is pretty much the same, she is eating but loosing weight if I don't supplement with tube feeding. The eyes are ok, the joints no change.
Today she is paying a visit to her mate while I am in there cleaning and she seems ok so far. They are happy to see eachother.

Reti


----------



## TerriB

Sorry that Alice is still not feeling so well. Interesting that your supplementation is able to support her weight. Sure hope this is something from which she will eventually be able to recover!


----------



## jazaroo

Well Reti, at least she seems stable for now. Let's hope we get some answers soon on what's causing her problems.

Please keep us updated,

Ron


----------



## Reti

Strange things are happening with Alice. Her upper jaw is swelling, actually it is the palate which is so swollen that she can't close her beak anymore.
My vet gave me Metacam and wants her on Baytril, cause as he mentioned, we didn't cover the Gram negatives.Her joints are a mess, no improvement and she is in pain. She has a great appetite though and even though she is eating she is not gaining weight. 
Vet thinks rheumatoid arthritis is possible in birds.
We'll see after that course of treatment what happens.
Also he told me that by mistake they also tested for Chlamydia and it was negative.

Reti


----------



## feralpigeon

Reti, I'm sorry to hear about Alice's on-going health problems. I guess if your
vet makes a mistake, the kind your's made is the kind you love hearing about.
I'm glad she's getting something for pain and hope that the round of Baytril
will help.

fp


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Reti,

I wish Alice were improving. Also, I think this is the second time now you have mentioned she is eating, but not gaining weight, is there any remote possibility Alice could have worms?

Ron


----------



## Reti

I am sure she has no worms. She had when she was found two years ago and was treated and tested negative after treatment. She was treated last year when a new one had worms and I treated everybody with Ivomec injections and then this year they had a round of dewormer from Foy's. Her fecal was negative also when he took all the tests when she got sick.

Reti


----------



## TerriB

Sure seems like you're covering all the bases with Alice. Hope you see some improvement soon!


----------



## Feefo

Hi Reti,

Is the swollen palate still a healthy pink?

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

cyro51 said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> Is the swollen palate still a healthy pink?
> 
> Cynthia


It looks pink with no growths or secretions.
I will try to take a pic.

Reti


----------



## Reti

Not the best pics but I hope you can see the enlarged palate. Also the lower jaw is wider than the upper one.
She does seem to have some secretion from her nostril.


----------



## Skyeking

Reti,

I'm so sorry Alice seems to continue to have problems with swelling, sure hope the doctor recommendations has some good results.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Reti, looking at the last pictures you posted you wouldn't think Alice had a thing wrong with her. I am so grateful she is still eating well and is very bright-eyed. She is a lovely little pigeon. I wish I knew something to help but I am as mystified as everyone else.


----------



## Reti

Thanks Treesa.
Maggie, if you look at her beak where I hold it open, you can see how far down her palate comes, this keeps her from closing her beak properly.
I have to figure this pic taking thing out, I am just not good at it.
Reti


----------



## feralpigeon

Reti, the pictures aren't clear, but I can see in the first some gapping between
upper and lower and in the second picture even though you are looking down on her, the roof of the mouth/palate is extending well below what it normally would. If alice is having some discharge around the nares, what about running tests on the discharge for bacteria and trichomonads? Maybe the discharge can work to your advantage.

fp


----------



## Reti

I should do that fp. She just started this today, never noticed it before. It is very little and mostly a crust. She might have a sinus infection. She is on Baytril, by the time I take her for a culture it might show nothing, we'll see, I ask dr. K.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

Poor Alice, her symptoms are so specific I can't understand why they don't match up to a known condition.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

cyro51 said:


> Poor Alice, her symptoms are so specific I can't understand why they don't match up to a known condition.
> 
> Cynthia



I guess because the cultures and blood tests came back negative and the antibiotics and supportive treatment didn't help much. 

Reti


----------



## Feefo

> I guess because the cultures and blood tests came back negative and the antibiotics and supportive treatment didn't help much.


I know that she is receiving the best of care. I just wish one of us could shout, "Eureka! I know exactly what condition could have caused the painful swollen joints, swollen jaw and swollen palate". I know that is unrealistic as even hospitals take ages to reach the right diagnosis with humans and often that ends up being a guess.

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking

Reti said:


> I guess because the cultures and blood tests came back negative and the antibiotics and supportive treatment didn't help much.
> 
> Reti


Reti,

This is so frustrating. If you knew what you dealing with, we could give her the support products specific to her needs. It is hard just going with symptoms, as there are so many possiblities and there is quite alot of products for over all support.

I know you are doing everything you can for her, she has that in her favor.

What is on the support list of supportive products you have been giving her?


----------



## Reti

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> This is so frustrating. If you knew what you dealing with, we could give her the support products specific to her needs. It is hard just going with symptoms, as there are so many possiblities and there is quite alot of products for over all support.
> 
> I know you are doing everything you can for her, she has that in her favor.
> 
> What is on the support list of supportive products you have been giving her?




She has been on Arnica, Neem, DHLA for the longest time, Now she gets 1/4 of alfalfa a day, probiotics every other day. Oh, she had colloidal silver in her eyes which did a great job, no more eye discharge.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Fish oil, -controls arthritis pain and inflammation , and has additional supportive vitamins, including Vitamin E-excellent antioxident and mobilizing joints. B complex would be an excellent addition, in Brewers yeast, along with probiotics. Echinacea is another good supportive product.
Garlic is critical for joints, as well as immune system stimulant.

Make sure she is not getting any form of iron in the multi-vitamin-also mycoplasma organism can cause rheumatoid arthritis, just something to keep in mind.


----------



## Reti

Thanks Treesa. She is getting multivitamins, haven't thought of vit E though.
She had echinaceea in the beginning, but I read in the news a while ago that it looses it's effectiveness if given over a longer period.

Reti


----------



## Reti

*Update and advice needed*

Well, poor Alice is going downhill. She has lost a lot of weight even with my supplemental feedings and up until two days ago she was eating quite a lot on her own.
Since yesterday she has a bloody discharge from her nares and I see some in her mouth too. She sleeps most of the time and I don't think she is even drinking anymore.
My vet has no idea what is wrong with her and taking her back today or tomorrow will only add to her stress, but I so want to know what is wrong with her. It breaks my heart to see her like this and I feel totally helpless.
I was considering taking her to a vet up in Jupiter, but boy, this vet might be great but her prices are way too high for my budget right now and if Alice has cancer (what I suspect) I could not possibly afford chemo for her.
I don't know what to do and what would be best for her. 
Should I continue the feedings or just let her go? How about water, I guess I should give her water.
I don't know if I am prolonging her suffering and I don't know if I should continue the supportive care. It is so hard to decide of what to do. 
Please, let me know what you think.

Reti


----------



## Maggie-NC

Reti, I am so very sorry to read this about Alice. I know you have worked so hard to keep her going. Frankly, if Alice were mine, I would tell her that it was all right to go. I believe that sometimes that is the kindest thing we can do for a bird that may have lost the will to live but keeps staying because of us.

Big hug to you. I know the agony of watching this happen.


----------



## Charis

Oh Reti, I totally agree with Maggie.
If Alice does have cancer and even if the cost of it was within your budget, the treatment would be so hard on her.
More than any thing I wish you weren't in this position. 
You've done every thing you can do


----------



## Whitefeather

Reti said:


> * *Well, poor Alice is going downhill.* She has lost a lot of weight even with my supplemental feedings and up until two days ago she was eating quite a lot on her own.
> 
> ** *Since yesterday she has a bloody discharge from her nares and I see some in her mouth too.* She sleeps most of the time and I don't think she is even drinking anymore.
> 
> *** *I don't know if I am prolonging her suffering and I don't know if I should continue the supportive care*. It is so hard to decide of what to do.
> *Please, let me know what you think.*
> 
> Reti


* I am so sorry to hear that Alice's condition continues to decline & that you are faced with such a heartbreaking situation, Reti.  

** This, as you know, is a very serious sign. 

*** My thoughts & opinion: There are three key words that always come to mind when I'm faced with the fear that I might be prolonging the suffering of any animal. *'Quality of Life'*.

You & Alice are in my thougths.  

Cindy


----------



## Feefo

> Frankly, if Alice were mine, I would tell her that it was all right to go


I would do the same. I have done this with two of my sick pigeons, I didn't stop feeding them or withhold water but they both slipped away within 24 hours.

Even if you could afford chemo I don't think that it would be a kindness to subjet a pigeon to it.

I am sorry that you both have had such a long battle.

Cynthia


----------



## Lovebirds

Lady Tarheel said:


> Frankly, if Alice were mine, I would tell her that it was all right to go. I believe that sometimes that is the kindest thing we can do for a bird that may have lost the will to live but keeps staying because of us.


Reti, I also agree with Maggie. I know it must be hard, but it's probably harder on Alice to be suffering. You've done your VERY VERY best and have given her every chance you could give her. Let her slip away in peace, knowing that you loved her so very much. I'm so sorry.


----------



## mr squeaks

Such a sad decision to have to make. I, too, agree with what has been said before - especially Cindy's comment about the "quality of life." This post is very difficult to write...

While she is still with you...letting her know how much you care, how much you love her and that you understand her decision that it is time to go, with or without your help may help ease some pain.

I am so sorry and my thoughts and heart are with you at this sad time.

LOVE and HUGS to you both...

Shi


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Oh, Reti, I'm so sorry that Alice is in such a state. It is so hard to wait and watch and feel so helpless. All Alice really needs is you right now and any comforting care you can provide, a safe warm place, food and water if she wants, and most of all loving hands and heart to help her along whatever journey the two of you decide to take.
Feather hugs and prayers for the two of you.

Mary


----------



## Reti

Thank you so much, each one of you are so wonderful in helping me make this tough decision.
Your help and support mean so much to me.

She is in a big cage in the living room and has food and water and grit available at all times. For some reason she does eat the grit and she never was a great grit eater.
I started her again on Metacam cause I am sure she is in pain and while I gave her the first dose earlier I noticed the right side of her throat, deep inside past the air hole is obstructed. It is a flesh colored lump and looks clean otherwise. Now on her tongue she has some projections and some white deposit, which I guess is candida, but I started her on Flagyl just in case it's canker. 
I feel I should treat her for the obvious, at least, hope I am doing the right thing.

Thank you again, you guys are great.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

Reti, I am so very sorry that you are facing the end for your beloved Alice. Like the others, I believe that Alice's time has come and that she should be allowed to pass on. Bless you for all that you have done for Alice and for the final blessing of no more illness or suffering.

Terry


----------



## Larry_Cologne

*Alice not doing well*

Reti,

I haven't been following closely, and I wish we knew what was wrong with Alice so she could heal and enjoy life further. 

If we were meant to know the right thing to do in every situation, I think Someone, God or whomever or whatever you wish to call him or it (I won't argue with anybody over this), would have given us what we needed to do so. 

You have given Alice much care and love, and I am sure she is aware of it. And that love matters more than anything else, because it is what is truly yours and is yours to give freely and in abundance. And you don't run out of it or deplete or diminish what you have.

Sometimes when you are sick a long time you simply wear out. It can be exhausting to be in a lot of pain. And it is okay to go. 

Years ago a younger sister spent several months in intensive care. She asked me (and other family members, separately) a week or so before she died if I thought she was going to die, and I said yes. I did not feel I would depress her with my answer, and I knew she expected a truthful answer. I then asked her if she thought so also, and she said yes. I asked her if she were ready, and she said yes. Actually, she wrote this in a shaky hand, since she was intubated for sucking mucus from her badly damaged lungs, which I sometimes took my turn doing, since she would otherwise have drowned in her own mucus from pneumonia. She was worn out, and there were no effective antibiotics left to use. She had a newborn child, her first, and her husband was angry with her for giving up. If she had survived she would have been left so weak she would have spent the short remainder of her life in a wheelchair, or so we were informed.

The whole intensive care team (at Wilford Hall Air force Hospital) were drained and depressed after the long efforts they had been through. My parents were calm, and present during her last unconscious half hour, when they knew she was dying. I had been there several hours, and had just left to eat lunch, and was probably driving away from the hospital the same time she was leaving it behind. 

We knew she was at peace, and in good hands.

There is a time for living, and a time for dying.

Larry


----------



## Skyeking

Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear the latest on Alice. I know you are comitted to make her as comfortable in her last hours, because you always give 100 percent.

I am sending my thoughts and prayers to you, and ask God to watch over you during this emotionally draining time, and allow Alice to fly free without anymore suffering.

Thank you for everything you have done for her.


----------



## Reti

Thank you Terry.
Larry, I am so sorry you and your family had to go through this tragedy. I guess sometimes it is easier for the sick person to let go than the loved ones.
Thank you for your kind words.

Reti


----------



## Reti

I don't dare to be too enthusiastic but she had a really good day. Could it be from the Flagyl? Or the Metacam?
She even left her cage for a short flight.
It is amazing how she went from one day laying there and the next all percked up.
Maybe she has an infection after all?
I am taking her in on Thursday, maybe even on Wednesday for an xray and throat cultures.
Also I start thinking she might have something viral? So many times all the tests come back negative it could be a virus after all and sometimes they take a lot of time to clear.
Also the one nare did not bleed today and the throat is clear, no more white deposit.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

That's an encouraging update, Reti. Let's hope the improvement continues until she is all better.

Terry


----------



## Flying_Pidgy

i tried some reasearching for you and you said the bird lost weight... these are some of the diseases that cause weight loss:

Hexamitiasis, Salmonellosis, Worm infestation, Trichomoniasis, Coccidiosis.


i got it from http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html 


--
I personally think it is some sort of canker i think. Possibly internal canker and the bird had some spots down the throat that you might have misses before but now are healing and have turned white. I think the flagyl you gave it did the trick. When my bird had canker i gave it 1 pill of spartrix and it cured it, the yellow dots turned white after 1 or 2 days , and within the next day they got either smaller or disapeared.

good luck i hope she feels much better.


----------



## pdpbison

Reti said:


> I don't dare to be too enthusiastic but she had a really good day. Could it be from the Flagyl? Or the Metacam?
> She even left her cage for a short flight.
> It is amazing how she went from one day laying there and the next all percked up.
> Maybe she has an infection after all?
> I am taking her in on Thursday, maybe even on Wednesday for an xray and throat cultures.
> Also I start thinking she might have something viral? So many times all the tests come back negative it could be a virus after all and sometimes they take a lot of time to clear.
> Also the one nare did not bleed today and the throat is clear, no more white deposit.
> 
> Reti



Hi Reti, 



Certainly sometimes, if their immune system is low in resources, an otherwise passing Virus or Bacteria or other microorganism of some kind, can get a foot hold where otherwie it may not have...and then to one degree or another, make them ill, and make for any number of odd symptoms or signs...whether by itself or along with whatever other illness or process was already going on.


Whether this preceeds or succeeds some other illness or bacterial or other infection...it can be a component of the unknowns of what we are dealing with.



Gram negative Staff which had been possibly slight, can sometimes assume more aggressive interests after or during anti-biotic regimens which did not affect it, while effecting other bacteria. Or, whatever Bacteria may have been afoot, the antibiotic which was used, if under-dosed, can in-effect weed out all the weaker bacteria, and encourage dominance of those whose genetic uniqueness allowed them to resist it, and then the same meds will not be so effective as they had been.


One possibility, would be to consider the use of an antibiotic which addresses gram negative interlopers.


Has Alice been ejoying to have ACV-Water? And if not, maybe consider to start that now...

As too, to provide pro-biotics and even digestive enzymes in this time between antibiotics, pending possible Clamavox or other to see if it may help.
And add these to an occasional tube feed to augment her diet...and make the tube feed especially calculated to nourish her immune system. Do a couple of these a day.


Don't give up...!


These are puzzles, with real stakes of course as we all too well know.


Blood oozing from Nares leads me to suspect gram negative Staff...or a Bacteria anyway.

And BActeeial infections can slip stream in behind Viral ones, as well as vise versa.



I have no idea what a 'flesh colored lump' in her Trachia may be, nor, for that matter, if it is some small 'blip' or 'blup' or other transient or congenital anomaly, which may always have been there anyway. Might be a little tumor or something...and tumors can come, and ( especially if an immune system is in good shape, ) they can quietly go.

Anything to nourish her immune system would be good of course...as in all these situations - the meds only do some things, and their own immune system has to do a great deal else.




If she is eating on her own, that of course is very good.


Have there been any chaulky 'yellow' in the urates or in liquids attending the poops?

Can you get 'Berimax' where you are without too much trouble Mail Order?

It is very kind to their systems, and does get rid of a great many unwantes micro-organisms which might ne vexing them...



Just a few thoughts anyway...



Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Feefo

I am so glad that she is feeling better. Is it possible that it is a canker nodule behind the palate that is causing the swelling? (although that would't explain the joint pains).

Larry, your family has gone through one terrible tragedy. I think that both you and your sister were very brave.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

Thank you Terry, F.P., Phil and Cynthia.
Dr.K suspected staf first and she was on Clavamox for 10 days until the cultures came back negative, then switched to Cipro, then doxy then Flagyl. We had covered almost everything. She was also tested for gout, that was my first suspicion.
That is why I think she might have a virus, or as phil mentioned some resistant bacteria.
She is on ACV three times a week, supplemental feedings, natural antiinflammatories.

F.P she was tested for Salmonella and Chlamydia and both came back negative. Her droppings were negative for worms and coccidia.
I think the canker is something new as she was checked over and over and she didn't have it until the other day.
She has been sick for two months now.

Cynthia, the joint swelling went down and her symptoms now are mostly in her throat/sinuses.Initially she had eye discarge that went away and the came back again, now its gone, but has nare discharge. The jaw swelling is still there.
She definately has something systemic going on and we could not test for Rheumatoid arthritis which do fit the symptoms somewhat.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Reti,

I certainly am glad to hear the latest.

Thanks for the update, I can't imagine your relief in seeing such a change in her. We will pray for the best.


----------



## Reti

Thank you, Treesa.
This morning she is not so good anymore. But I noticed she is worse in the mornings and then perks up in the afternoons.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison

Reti said:


> Thank you Terry, F.P., Phil and Cynthia.
> Dr.K suspected staf first and she was on Clavamox for 10 days until the cultures came back negative, then switched to Cipro, then doxy then Flagyl. We had covered almost everything. She was also tested for gout, that was my first suspicion.
> That is why I think she might have a virus, or as phil mentioned some resistant bacteria.
> She is on ACV three times a week, supplemental feedings, natural antiinflammatories.
> 
> F.P she was tested for Salmonella and Chlamydia and both came back negative. Her droppings were negative for worms and coccidia.
> I think the canker is something new as she was checked over and over and she didn't have it until the other day.
> She has been sick for two months now.
> 
> Cynthia, the joint swelling went down and her symptoms now are mostly in her throat/sinuses.Initially she had eye discarge that went away and the came back again, now its gone, but has nare discharge. The jaw swelling is still there.
> She definately has something systemic going on and we could not test for Rheumatoid arthritis which do fit the symptoms somewhat.
> 
> Reti



Hi Reti,


Oye...


About all I can think of, is if you are comfortable tube-feeding her, to daily mix up the following -


'Nutrical', a good three inch squig...

'Chlorella' ( a green Powder high in antioxidants and chlorohyll ) a heaping Teaspoon full...( any good Health Food store will have in bulk, or, other similar kindred powders, such as 'Super Greens' etc.) 

Goji Berry Juice or light concentrate - generous Tablespoon full...( likewise, any Health Food Store witll have small Bottles) 

Maybe a drop or two of Cod Liver Oil, but not too much of course...maybe one drop every other day for a business week.

Hagens Breeding Mash Powder, or, super fresh K-T ( usually the K-T stuff can be years old already when we buy it, ) or plain 'Malto Meal', uncooked of course, one heaping tablespoon full...

If you are at a Health Food Store then, see if they have 'Blue Lightening'...it is a powder, and small saches of it are like $1.25, and one sache should do for quite a few batches of chow...and, add say a scant Teaspoon of that also.


A dash of whatever pro-biotics and digestive enzymes as you favor or have on hand.



Add these together, and cover with Water for an hour, stirr THEN, adding whatever additional Water may be needed, so all is mixed well and totally hydrated to begin with. No stirring till it has sat covered in Water for an hour.


Do this every day...even this much twice-a-day to augment her Seed eating on her own...


If a Virus or pesky elusive Bacteria, or any not-quite responding situation, this can really help a great deal.



Too, natural, unfiltered, plain, out door, direct Sunshine...especially if she has been a long time as an indoor Bird.


This is what I would do anyway...and I hope it may help!


Good Luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Reti

Wow, quite a recipe you gave me here Phil, but I will "cook" for my dear Alice.
Hope I will find all the ingredients in the health food store.
I haven't thought about the sunlight, she has been indoors for over two years now, even though they get a lot of sun in the bird room, it is through the window. I will put her out on the balcony for a bit every day.
I will let you know what I find at the store tomorrow or the latest Thursday.

She is getting probiotics three times a week, when she is not getting the ACV.

Are human digestive enzymes ok?

Reti


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Reti, 


Yup...the Human Digestive Enzymes are fine...all the same unless one is an Ungulate.

I buy 'Udos' brand, and the 'travel-pack' which is a very small pocket-size box containing however many Capsules...and the Capsules come apart to sprinkle some out easily however much one wants, then the capsule just slides back together pending next time. I bought one of these several years ago and I am still not run out. Does not take much, and even if one is heavy handed, it will not matter, still fine...


Get all of those things of course, if you possibly can...and of course do the direct Sunshine as you mentioned...every day even. 


"Nutrical" would be a 'Petsmart' item, in the puppy-kitten isle...



I just got some little foil saches of the 'Blue Lightening' yesterday, which I had not seen before...one is supposed to dissolve it in a glass of Water or Juice for people beverage...but of course it will disolve perfectly in a Bird's formula too...and it looks very promising for any situations where special formulas are called for...it is Vegan, and contains all sorts of particular Vegetable and Fruit components, and is a 'Food' in itself, even as the other formula ingredients I mentioned are in their ways...

I have a very good feeling the Sunshine, and being fed this formula, will help her get over this hump.


She does not need much protean right now, and her own pecking of Seeds will take care of that...but she does need detoxicifation, and antioxidents and system cleansers, and things easy for her Liver...things which are themselves highly nutritious, and to be getting puhhhhh-lenty of 'em too...plenty of these other normally seldom and discrete nourishment things for her system to get happy with itself again and find it's stride.


We all want to be blowing at the computer screen image you know of her 20th Birthday Candles on-a-Seed-Cake...so...


This is my best shot anyway...for that...



Best wishes you two..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Skyeking

There is nothing like nature's bounty to take care of Alice now, I would try that myself.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Reti, 



Keeping Alice in my prayers here...

...with a big across-the-distance smootch for her head, too...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Reti

Thank you Phil. I got most of the stuff from the health food store, minus the goji berry juice and blue lightening. Will have to look for those somewhere else today. I am giving her a drop of cranberry juice in the water. 
Her appetite is amazing and she is flying around again, but she stil looks awful.

My vet didn't think xrays would show anything so he didn't do that. Throat cultures are pending.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Reti,

I'm glad Alice is feeling better, be careful to make sure there is no added sugar in the cranberry juice, or any of the other products.


----------



## Reti

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> I'm glad Alice is feeling better, be careful to make sure there is no added sugar in the cranberry juice, or any of the other products.


No, it's sugar-free, natural.
I just give her a tiny bit, a drop in 8oz water.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks

Continuing to send WARMEST HEALING THOUGHTS to ALICE, Reti!!

And, knowing the stress you are under, LOVE and HUGS to YOU too!!

We will all be watching for positive updates!!

Shi


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Reti, 


Goji-Berry Juice, Elder Berry Juice, Black tart Cherry Juice...Noni...or reasonable concentrates of them...a sloshed over Tablespoon in a-day's formula, is fine...even for a Baby, and especially for Babys for that matter, as well as for convelesent adults.


They can eat twenty or thirty of the Goji Berrys a day, or more, and it is fine for them, it is very very good for them...

I have never seen one get 'the trots' from it...


So, have no worries on that...


We tend to get to know little about "what" these Birds really eat in the wild, and when they can.

They eat the living daylilghts out of living Greens of various kinds, low bitter Weeds and small bushes...and small fruiting bodys of Trees, Shrubs and Plants variously. Sweet ones and otherwise.

Seeds are not even the main thing in some regions. And or 'green' Seeds still on the boughs are...as well as dried fallen Seeds of last Season's remains being gleaned.


We get some of this info with the Wood Pigeons, but little to no with our Livas and Doves variously.


I have seen the ferals here, who when various low Weeds are in season...and also with eating fallen Olives ( however they manage To do that amazes me!) and their enthusiastic browsing of other small fruits whenever they can.

They learn this from eachother, seeing eachother do it...or learn it from their parents..or some assume the habits on their own.


We can not give them those opportunitys...but we can do some things to approximate them...or, to make up for their lack, especially in times of illness, convelesence, or frailty from injury as well.


So, don't be shy with the Goji-Berrys or their Juice...or Chlorophyll sources...



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## mr squeaks

*Posted this back in January 2007 in a Goji Berry thread. Enjoy...*

GOJI BERRIES??? Someone mention GOJI BERRIES???

Well, let me tell you...I LOVE the little morsels! I remember Phil mentioning them many times. So, when I was in my Health Food Store, they HAD them. Actually, they had DARK CHOCOLATE COVERED GOJI BERRIES! Talk about died and gone to heaven! Got my chocolate fix AND high antioxidant at the same time! What more could one want???

According to the package, Goji Berries are the strongest Antioxidant Food on the ORAC SCALE at 25,000+

Listed also, in descending order:

Pomegranates 13,000
Prunes 5,770
Raisins 2,830
Blueberries 2,400
Blackberries 2,036
Strawberries 1,540
Raspberries 1,320

They are also a 500 times richer source of Vitamin C per oz. than oranges. Excellent source of Vit. A, containing more carotenoids than any other food known to man. Contain vitamins B1, B2, B6, E and a rich source of Selenium and Germanium. They contain 18 animo acids (more than bee pollen), 21 trace minerals, and 29 different fatty acids. At 15% per weight, they are also a great source of protein.

For those of you interested, the package goes on to say that G.B.s strengthen the immune system, improve white blood cell count, and may stimulate release of rejuvenative human growth hormone by the pituitary gland. They have been traditionally used for strength building, adding longevity, regulating blood sugar and linked to sexual potency, improved sleep and better vision. Been used in Chinese medicine for their anti-cancer properties

*The package claims they are, without a doubt, one of the most nutritionally dense, medicinal foods on earth and a true "SUPER" food.*

I ALSO bought plain sun dried G.B.s and will also look for the Yogurt covered ones...mmmmmm

I WILL have my "berry" and eat it too!! 

Thanks, Phil, for mentioning Goji Berries in the first place!

Shi


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Shi, 



Wow!


I always knew they were "good"...


Now I really KNOW they are GOOD..!


Lol...


Thanks for the nice post about them!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Reti

I think I will take them myself too. 

I found some fresh blood in Alice's cage today. I am not sure if she is bleeding from her mouth or nose or both as booth have dried blood.
I stopped the Metacam as it might interfere with the platelet function. I was never able to find out if Metacam has this function.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Reti,


Please tell Alice to come down with something we can figure out for Pete's sakes...instead of this suff.

I feel so useless and helpless, and heaven knows how you feel by now.

Darn...what the heck IS this?


Call "Foys" tomorrow, talk to the old guy there...they are very friendly and might just have some ideas..! They have seen or heard of just about everything.



All I can think of to add, or to re-mention, is "Oxine", just plain, add to clean Water, and mist the Air in front of her so she has to breathe it in...and do it a bunch, too.

In fact, ask "Foys" about that when you call then, and or I am sure they sell it...and you can get some sent pronto.


There are reports of it really helping in repiratory/sinus infections, and I tried it on me a few times with mild Bronchitis I was getting, and I was pleased with how it felt, and I got over it quickly while other people I knew had it for weeks.

So, consider to give that a try...it kills germs and bacterias and molds and so on, on anything, and in sinuses or bronchials also, while being friendly to even the most sensitive tissues.


Hang in there...!


Best wishes you two!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Maggie-NC

Reti, how is Alice doing these days?


----------



## Reti

Thank you for asking, Maggie.
She is doing poorly, but hanging in there. My heart breaks seeing her bones and feathers and all those bloody secretion from her nares and mouth.
I talked to my vet today and he thinks she wouldn't make it though an endoscopy.
I have put her on the antifungal/Itraconazole as he thinks it could be aspegillosis.
I couldn't even follow up with Dr.Speer, which I called last week and he is waiting for her labs as Lee had an accident and broke his elbow and a few ribs and the elbow needs surgery.
I bought Alice a large cage and she has a UV lamp, she seem to love it and only occasionally moves away from the lamp. She also eats still on her own a bit. 
I am hoping for a little miracle.

Reti


----------



## Maggie-NC

Well, I had hoped she was doing lots better but we will just continue to pray for this sweet girl. I am so sorry to hear about Lee and hope everything goes well with the surgery. You really have a lot on you right now so remember we love you and are thinking of you.


----------



## TAWhatley

Reti,

I'm sorry Alice is doing so poorly and that Lee has gotten hurt so badly. You truly do have a lot on your plate right now. We'll be keeping you, Lee, and Alice in our thoughts and prayers.

Terry


----------



## Reti

Thank you so much Maggie and Terri. Your support means a lot to me.

Reti


----------



## Lovebirds

Sorry to hear about all your troubles. I haven't been on the board much the past few days, so I've probably missed quite a bit. I mostly read and move on QUICKLY........LOL


----------



## TerriB

Reti, you are doing a tremendous job supporting Alice and keeping her comfortable. Sure hope she rallies.

Sorry about Lee's accident. I'm sure with your TLC he'll be up and around in no time!


----------



## Feefo

I so sorry to hear about Lee's accident, Reti, I hope he heals quickly. Please give him my good wishes.



> I have put her on the antifungal/Itraconazole as he thinks it could be aspegillosis


Is this the same vet that treated Sir B? Did he test for aspergillosis when Alice first became ill? Why does he suspect it after all tjis time?

At least she is receiving the most loving care possible.

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

Thank you Renee, TerriB and Cynthia.
Lee will be alright, we know what is wrong with him and can fix it.

Cynthia, he did not test for aspergillus, we are just treating her out of desperation, maybe something will work. Yes, it's the same vet who treated Sir.B.
He thought since she has been on every antibacterial possible she might have developed a fungal infection. I know it's silly to treat for something without a proper diagnosis, but we don't know what else to do. And at this point I don't think she would make it through a trip to the vet.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear about Lee, and also sorry to hear Alice is about the same.

Is Alice getting some good healthy kefir/yogurt? That might help anything with gut issues.


----------



## Reti

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about Lee, and also sorry to hear Alice is about the same.
> 
> Is Alice getting some good healthy kefir/yogurt? That might help anything with gut issues.


Thank you, Treesa. She is getting probiotics.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

> I know it's silly to treat for something without a proper diagnosis, but we don't know what else to do.


I don't think it's silly at all! I would be doing the same. 

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

My goodness! When did that happen? Poor Lee! Well, at least he'll have Olivia to help him with his PT and the pain.

Sure doesn't sound good for Alice. I haven't had any ideas for this one for a long time. I feel for you, Reti.

Pidgey


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Reti, I don't have much to offer except sympathy and best wishes for a speedy recovery for Lee and Alice. Sounds like you have your hands full right now  
It's so hard with a pet to know what to do so we just do the best we can for them and love them.


----------



## Reti

Thank you for the encouraging words.
Cynthia, it's good to hear you would have done the same.

Pidgey, it happened last week, on my graduation day (which I missed). I didn't care to go anyways, so Lee took care of that 

I had a horrible cold the past days and seems like I passed it on to Lee. I don't don't know if it will affect his upcoming surgery, Have to talk to his dr., but it sure is painful for him to cough and blow his nose with three broken ribs.

Reti


----------



## Maggie-NC

Reti, I did not know you had graduated. That is wonderful.CONGRATULATIONS RETI ON YOUR GRADUATION!


----------



## Reti

Thank you so much, Maggie. 
It's my second graduation, so not a big deal, besides it was such a bad year (not school, but otherwise) so I am glad it's over.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

Hi Reti, CONGRATULATIONS, but I seem to have completely lost the plot here. What did you graduate in? And more important, will it enable you to practice medicine in the US? Or are you already practicing?

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

cyro51 said:


> Hi Reti, CONGRATULATIONS, but I seem to have completely lost the plot here. What did you graduate in? And more important, will it enable you to practice medicine in the US? Or are you already practicing?
> 
> Cynthia


It would be impossible for me to work as a physician again, I would have to give up at least two thirds of my babies and rescue work, something I am not willing to do for anything or anybody. So, the best next thing was going into nursing, pretty good pay by working three days a week, what more would I want.
I attended an accelerated program (one year) for nursing at the University of Miami and now I am applying for jobs.
I thought I had told you in an email, hmm 

Reti


----------



## Lin Hansen

Reti,

Congratulations on your graduation....that is quite an accomplishment considering all of the other demands you attend to.

Good luck with the job search - best wishes that you land a great one.

Linda


----------



## Feefo

> I thought I had told you in an email, hmm


Yes, you did! But I think that was before my mother had her hysterectomy and it seems like such a long time ago, I thought I had missed something. I get very confused now and am hoping it is stress not alzheimers! Every time I put my clothes on inside out my heart sinks.

I am sorry that you can't work as a physician and as a rescuer, if I could choose a doctor it would be you. But there are more doctors than pigeon rescuers.

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking

Since the subject has been brought up I will add my two cents worth.

We are quite fortunate to have Reti here as a member. With her credentials and her excellent rehabber skills, she is quite busy in all phases of her life, but she always finds time to help us with our birds. 

I am grateful to know her.

CONGRATULATIONS Reti, and thank you for all you do!


----------



## Maggie-NC

Treesa, indeed we are fortunate to know Reti. I know both of you cherish your personal friendship. Most of us can only know each other through cyberspace but we can still care for each other. 


LOL Cynthia, that doesn't sound like alzheimer's - just a busy woman who has several things going on at once. I find myself going to another room for something only when I get there can't remember what I went there for. Still, there are some compensations when you get my age - senior citizen discounts on a bunch of stuff.


----------



## John_D

cyro51 said:


> I get very confused now and am hoping it is stress not alzheimers! Every time I put my clothes on inside out my heart sinks.
> Cynthia


 

Reti, I can definitely testify to that. Who else would phone me to ask where she had left her phone or the bands for released pigeons. "Well, I think they will be in the cupboard opposite the kitchen drainer, or else they'll be in the third drawer down in the secon set of boxes in the front bedroom...." etc.

John


----------



## Reti

Well, John, it's good Cynthia has you to remember things.

Cynthia, you had a tough year yourself, so it is understandable to forget things or not paying attention to what you're doing.

Treesa and Maggie thank you very much (I am blushing)

Lin, thank you, I hope to find a job in pediatrics, I would love to work with children.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

I wouldn't worry about getting your clothes inside out--seems to be the rage here these days...

Pidgey


----------



## TerriB

Reti said:


> Thank you so much, Maggie.
> It's my second graduation, so not a big deal, besides it was such a bad year (not school, but otherwise) so I am glad it's over.
> 
> Reti


School schedules don't have much respect for the intrusions of real life. Congratulations on completing that step toward your goal. I really appreciate your perspective on what is important in life. I think you will be awesome in pediatrics! After dealing with cranky pigeons and squealing squabbies, human children will be a walk in the park.


----------



## Reti

TerriB said:


> After dealing with cranky pigeons and squealing squabbies, human children will be a walk in the park.


LOL , yeah, you have a good point.
Thanks

Reti


----------



## phyll

Hi Reti,
I hope things start improving for you very soon. Bob & I pray for you & Lee every day. Now Alice has been added to our prayers. 
We were sorry to hear about Lee's accident. Of course, we will pray specifically about his surgery.

Congratulations on becoming a nurse! I wish you lots of luck with your wonderful profession!
Choosing your babies over practicing as a physician, was such a loving & unselfish thing to do.

May God bless all of you!

Phyll


----------



## Reti

Thank you, Phyll. I really appreciate it that you are including us in your prayers.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks

oh GREAT! I CAN'T BELIEVE that I have missed so MUCH in this thread! I come to check new posts...get sidetracked...go out...come back and most of the new ones are gone! I think I should go back to checking EACH category!

WELL, to make up for lost time, FIRST, I am very sorry to hear about Lee and, along will others, will send *WARM HEALING THOUGHTS and HUGS!*

Also, tied with FIRST:

*CONGRATULATIONS!!!*

I have NO fears that you will be "unemployed" for long! AND, I salute your decision to work with children! I would never make it! I am SO glad you will be able to help both species! Takes a VERY special woman to do what you are planning, Reti, and I KNOW you will do an outstanding job! Pijies AND human kids will BOTH THANK YOU!!

Did someone mention memory problems? Well, don't know about Alzheimer's, but I do think Dementia may be a given in my future(?). So far, though, ignorance is bliss and I only put my underpants on "inside out"...sometimes!  Fortunately, I STILL know how to get to the site, remember my name, where I live AND my animal's names! What else could I ask for??

Oh yeah, LOTS of senior discounts...so LITTLE time!  

Look forward to your updates, Reti!

With love,

Shi


----------



## Reti

Thank you Mr. Squeaks, that is so nice of you.
I am sure I will love to work with kids (I am not sure how much I will like the parents, but, oh well)

Update on Alice, pretty much the same. All she is eating now is peas, her favourites. I wonder if I should let her have as many as she wants.
I do supplement with Harrison's formula twice a day.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

Reti,

I can't remember anymore--was Alice ever checked for Mycobacterium avium? It details that one in the back end of the chapter on bacteria. You might oughta' read that one. This one is such an odd case...

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

Pidgey said:


> Reti,
> 
> I can't remember anymore--was Alice ever checked for Mycobacterium avium? It details that one in the back end of the chapter on bacteria. You might oughta' read that one. This one is such an odd case...
> 
> Pidgey


Would it come out in the blood cultures or joint aspirate cultures?
I know he was DNA tested for Chlamydia and Salmonella.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

No, that's one they have to do special. There have been a few tests used but none work consistently. As they're an acid-fast organism, that's the kind of thing that's normally done. They can be cultured, but that's special, too, I think. Anyhow, here's a quickie about those staining techniques:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid-fast

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

I sent an email to my vet. I'll let you know what he thiks.

Reti


----------



## Reti

Alice just passsed away a few minutes ago.
It was slow and painful, she struggled for hours.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I'm sorry, that was a long struggle. It might even have been cancer. Are you going to take her in for a necropsy? That's one where I would, even if only for the sake of the other birds.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

Pidgey said:


> Well, I'm sorry, that was a long struggle. It might even have been cancer. Are you going to take her in for a necropsy? That's one where I would, even if only for the sake of the other birds.
> 
> Pidgey



I will have a necropsy done on her. I just called my vet and left a message to call me back. I don't know how to keep her till Tuesday so the tissues won't get altered.

Reti


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## Pidgey

Check in the Big Book.


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## Reti

Pidgey said:


> Check in the Big Book.


Haven't thought it might be in there, I will do so.

Reti


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## flitsnowzoom

Reti, I'm so sorry about Alice. I know she is greatly loved and cherished and her passing has to hurt so much. At least she won't have to suffer any longer. 

Feather hugs and tears


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## Pidgey

Page 358. Chill in cold, soapy water and then refrigerate in a sealed bag--don't freeze.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather

I am so sorry Reti. My condolences to you & Lee on the passing of Alice.
This has turned out to be a pretty 'sucky' past two days hasn't it?

*"Alice, sweet baby, may you forever fly free."​*


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## Maggie-NC

Reti, I just finished reading Renee's post about her champion dying, then Phil's baby and now Alice. I was not expecting to read this. It has been a sad day. And, Cindy's little one died yesterday, so it has been extra hard on all of us.

I didn't "know" Renee's or Phil's birds but I do feel I know Alice and I am heartbroken over this gallant little bird's death. You have worked so hard to save her and I had high hopes that she would make it. Bless you for all you did. I wish her death had been easier but she fought for life to the end.


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## feralpigeon

Reti, I'm very sorry to hear about Alice, especially that she was in 
so much pain before passing. I hope that any new information that
the necropsy brings will be of no significant import to either you or Lee
and your other birds.

fp


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## Reti

Fsz, Cindy, Maggie, fp, thank you.
Even though I saw it coming I am devastated. This morning I knew this was it. She couldn't stand anymore and she had this look on her face and she smelled like death, not bad, but different.
I cancelled lunch with my friend and was holding her the whole morning. My poor, poor girl, she suffered so much.

Pidgey, thanks for the info.

My vet just called, I might take her over to the clinic this afternoon, then they'll take care of it.

Reti


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## Feefo

I am so very sorry Reti. I am glad that you were there and able to hold her and comfort her at the end.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Hi Reti,



I am so sorry.


I am glad you were able to be with her.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear about poor Alice, and her struggling until the end.

I'm sure you made her as comfortable as you could and she didn't die alone.

Thank you for everything you have done for her, especially your wonderful devotion and 24/7 care for her, I have a feeling whatever happened it was damage done to her permanently before you got her.

Skye sends you a big hug and feathery kiss.


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## TAWhatley

Ohhhhh, Reti ... I'm so sorry that Alice has passed and very sad for both you and Lee.

Terry


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## jazaroo

Reti, the last few days have been very sad here, I was just heart sickened over all these deaths and now to come back on and read Alice has passed was a hard blow to take.

My heart felt condolences go out to you and Lee, you tried so very hard for her, and I know your being there for her in her last moments, was of great comfort to her.

Ron


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## Lin Hansen

Reti,

I'm so sorry that it came to this after all this time and effort.....you tried your best.

Linda


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## Reti

*Autopsy*

We did the autospy this afternoon. My poor baby must have suffered for so long.
Upon opening it was clear what she died from - end stage live disease. Her liver was so large it occupied the whole abdominal cavity. It was hard as a rock and had an ugly nodular surface. The pancreas was also very hard.
Her kidneys didn't even look like kidneys, they were shriveled, one was much bigger than the other one and they just looked odd.
He sent out samples from each organ for a histopathology exam cause I do have to know what caused all this.

Whatever it was she must have suffered enormously and all I did was prolonging her suffering.
What a sad day and these past days it was so sad reading about all the loses on here. I so wish all those poor little angels would not have to suffer.
Thank you all for your kind words and support.

Reti


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## Pidgey

Check out page 528 of The Big Book to see if anything there looks similar.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Reti, I'm at a loss for words for poor Alice and you as well. We don't know 
what is going on inside w/them and it's not like what you did would be considered heroic means in any way, just humane. It's a bad sinking feeling
when we loose one of our birds and especially a rescue that has been w/us
for a long time. I do believe though that some of the little patients we get
in are truly already in a 'make comfortable' condition and sometimes that is
the kindest thing that we can do for them and perhaps why they do come our
way. Because we will provide that kind of care. You go all out for your 
rescues, please don't feel badly about that.

fp


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## mr squeaks

Just found out about Alice, Reti. 

I am so very sorry! She was so fortunate to have you there at the end. 

Hopefully, the tests will shed some insight to help others. I do hope so!

So much sadder to do your best to help and nothing seems to work. No one could have tried to help harder than you! 

With LOVE and COMFORTING HUGS

Shi


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## Reti

Thank you fp and Mr.Squeaks. 

Pidgey, I just looked through the whole hepatology and she didn't have any symptoms really, other than green urine and feces, but she has always had this, so I didn't think anything about it. She never had normal droppings.
But looking through the pics her liver looked like the one with Mycobacteria infection. Goodness, I hope this is not what she had.

Reti


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## phyll

Reti,
Bob & I are so very sorry about your Alice. Please try to block any negative thoughts concerning your actions.
You tried your best to help her get well.

Right now, Alice feels absolutely fine. That's the important thing to remember, Reti, so don't look back.

May God bless & comfort you & Lee.
You guys have been through so much, please take care of yourselves. 

Phyll


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## Maggie-NC

Reti, please don't even go there thinking you prolonged her suffering because that is something none of us can determine. We can only keep trying. I believe that while Alice may not have felt 100%, I don't believe she suffered unless it was the time just before she died. I have nothing to base my beliefs on, just gut feelings that birds too will fight to live and you helped her do that. The illness just became more than she could fight in the end.


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## Pidgey

If it was Mycobacterium avium then there wasn't necessarily much you could have done anyhow. We may have learned a little bit more how to deal with it through multiple antibiotic therapy but it's still recommended to put the affected birds to sleep. It does seem that it's a ubiquitous disease and that most cases are in immunocompromised individuals. However, you might want to do some extra-special cleaning in the house.

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds

Reti, I missed the past few days and didn't realize until just now that Alice had passed. I'm very very sorry. I know you did the best you could and that's all any of us can do.


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## littlestar

Reti, I'm so very sorry to hear about Alice. I know the other day when we talked to each other and I asked about her you said she had gotten worse. I had tears in my eye's, now I'm sitting here writing and crying for her, you, and Lee. I know how much you and Lee loved her. If you need someone to talk to, let me know.


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## Reti

Thank you so much Phyll,Maggie, Renee and Mary Ann.
Pidgey, thanks. I do clean every day, when home I scoop up the poor every hour and I vacuum and dust every day. 

My new worry is Fran now, depending what the histopath exam shows I will take her in for more tests. A year ago she showed a mass in her abdomen that occupied the abdominal cavity and she is sleeping most of the time ever since. The mass did get smaller and her latest tests six months ago or so were normal. But I feel I have to keep a good eye on her.

Reti


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## Margarret

Reti,

I am so sorry about Alice. I've been following the posts on her hoping that she could rally with one of the treatments. I'm so glad you were there with her at the end, holding her little body as she slipped away. It was the last kindness you could do for her and I'm sure made the ordeal of passing easier for her.

Margarret


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## Reti

Thank you Margarret. I am glad too I was able to be with her especially since it took so long.

Reti


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## TerriB

Reti, I am so that Alice has passed on. You went through great effort to keep her comfortable and try to resolve her health issues. She had an incredible fighting spirit. It must have been especially difficult watching her painful struggle. I'm sure she found your familiar touch a great comfort. She is now at peace and I hope you will allow yourself to be, also. No one could have done more for her.


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