# Problem with Ivermec (wormer) ?



## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

"Tuffy" has been inside on heat since November. She was fluffed up, loosing weight, overall depressed and lethargic off and on. I worm my birds every 3 months with Ivermec. I had others in and out for short periods of time all winter. I wormed them *again* while inside, they passed some roundworms, perked up and went back out. Tuffy passed a few *very small *worms, perked up for a week or so, then back down again. I sent fecal samples out to the lab (on Tuffy). They came back "few" roundworms, and coccidia. She was wormed a 3rd time with Ivermec, went on albon and they thought it would be a good idea to giver her an antibiotic so she was on baytril for awhile. She didn't pass any worms this time. Perked up again, started eating and gaining weight. As soon as the meds stopped - back down again. So to make a longer story short - from November to yesterday she was wormed 5 times with Ivermec, she was on baytril, albon, metronidozole, and smz-tmp (not all at the same time). I also had to give her supplimental feedings at her bad times because she refused to eat. At this point she is a skeleton with feathers. The weight was coming off faster than I could get food into her. The doctor couldn't figure it out - there was nothing on the labwork that would cause this that we didn't treat - we treated everything! She also was getting pro biotics between meds.
Yesterday morning she looked so bad but she was refusing to give up. She just stood on her heating pad and picked at food but didn't eat it. I knew by the time I got home from work she would have gone to sleep - she just looked exhausted from her fight with "whatever". But while I was at work I couldn't help but wrack my brain - we had to be missing something, but on the flip side I was telling the "BIG GUY UPSTAIRS" that I don't know what else to do, that I don't want her to suffer (she didn't seem to be suffering) and that it was in his hands now. Tuffy wasn't giving up so I couldn't give up either.
For some reason I picked up some stongid (pyrantil,nemex) to bring home - I don't know why. I didn't even expect her to be alive. I peeked around the corner when I came home - afraid of what I was going to see. OMG she's still standing! Head hung, wings drooped and back arched. I just wanted to cry.
Like a robot, I mixed her food and nutracal, and got her syringe ready. I measured the strongid, mixed it in her food and tube fed her thinking it was her last. After she ate she cuddled up under my neck - I sat holding her the rest of the night, thinking it would be the last time. I propped her up on her heating pad with her towel and stuffed mallard (she was lonely) and told her I loved her. 
This morning, I peeked around the corner (again) thinking she was gone.
She was standing there looking at me! I walked over to her cage and was horrified at what I saw!! Behind her was a HUGE ball of roundworms - dead. The size of a half dollar 
A half dose of strongid killed all those worms (lab report said "few"), 5 doses of Ivermec did nothing?!
She's been eating all day, so I only gave her a small tube feeding tonight so she could have her nutracal.
Any ideas on this?


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

WOW! I am of no help with ideas but just wanted to congratulate you ON *FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT*....sounds like she's gonna pull through!!


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Perhaps the worms built up an immunity to the ivermec (just a thought)


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Actually, when I first had pigeons, I didn't worm them for years. Then I was told I should worm them. So I wormed maybe once a year. Then as I spoke to more people that had pigeons, they said I should worm 4 times a year. (Sorry, I made a mistake in my 1st post. The past 2 years - I wormed 4 times a year) And they were just routine wormings.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

OK, So do you worm OR not worm?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> I did not even get past the part were you said you wormed them every 3 months. I would NEVER worm my birds that often. Something is wrong if they are getting reinfested that quick! Even when i was racing, i would only worm once before pairing, and on racers, LONG before the first race.
> I think too much worming! Remember, WORMS are tough, anything that makes them pass IS a toxin of some sort, although there are some that are less so.


I'm beginning to think that they were'nt re-infested. I'm thinking that Ivermec didn't work at all!


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Worm but NOT that often, I raced for years with only worming twice a year. Worm, such as tape, and round worms, if i remember are picked up when eating. Some types have a host, such as snails ect. God! if all around this sight worm that often, that could explain the one egg thing. LOL!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> That is every three months. If anyone tells you you need to worm that often, they had better beef up there sanitation program Dave.


Sorry - I'm overtired and confused now! **Every 4 months - 3 times a year**
There, I think I said it right. Is it bedtime yet?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Just remember, to be an effective worming agent, IT must be TOXIC, maybe that is why the one you are using is not working, I have to be up at 5 LOL!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

My point is though - she was wormed with Ivermec 2 weeks ago and passed nothing (while the sample read "few" roundworms)
I wormed her with strongid last night - a last ditch effort I guess with something I've never used - I don't know why. And she passed that huge worm ball! Why didn't Ivermec take care of this?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> Just remember, to be an effective worming agent, IT must be TOXIC, maybe that is why the one you are using is not working, I have to be up at 5 LOL!


4:30!!!!!!!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> Just remember, to be an effective worming agent, IT must be TOXIC, maybe that is why the one you are using is not working, I have to be up at 5 LOL!


What do you mean - it has to be toxic?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Worms ARE VERY HARDY, it takes a real strong drug, in my opinion to make them pass. Dave


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Worming agents (for any animal) are a poison ... their very purpose is to kill the worms. That's why, for years, I didn't give my dogs year-round heartworm meds - - - I wanted to give their bodies a chance to clean out. The meds (Ivormectin) have now changed a bit (and more research has been done) and the "clear the body" theory is no longer valid ... but the meds are still TOXIC.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Well then it looks like I'm flushing the Ivermec, and switching to strongid.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Good point wormwood, but the buggers are so tough usually they just "let go" and do not die. Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

wolfwood said:


> Worming agents (for any animal) are a poison ... their very purpose is to kill the worms. That's why, for years, I didn't give my dogs year-round heartworm meds - - - I wanted to give their bodies a chance to clean out. The meds (Ivormectin) have now changed a bit (and more research has been done) and the "clear the body" theory is no longer valid ... but the meds are still TOXIC.


Yes, I understand that. But thats why I didn't understand LuckyT when he said it has to be toxic


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Toxic is the same as poison. Dave I.E. THEY ARE TOUGH!


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## samuri_spartan (Aug 26, 2007)

You should swich it up when using meds. You used ivomec too much and the worms became immune. It will happen with the strongid too. Alternate them and dont worm so much. Only worn twice a year unless a bird is getting thin. Then do it individually. Ivomec is made to be used on cows and such. Its not too good pumping too much into a pigeon. I think we as pigeon breeders are too quick to administer drugs. Just my opinion. 

Chris


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Samuri, YOU are correct! Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

samuri_spartan said:


> You should swich it up when using meds. You used ivomec too much and the worms became immune. It will happen with the strongid too. Alternate them and dont worm so much. *Only worn **twice a year unless a bird is getting thin. Then do it individually. *Ivomec is made to be used on *cows *and such. Its not too good pumping too much into a pigeon. I think we as pigeon breeders are too quick to administer drugs. Just my opinion.
> 
> Chris


That is exactly what I do (except 3 times a year), I have just never rotated wormers. I use the equine (equvalon -spelling is wrong) ivermec


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

My vet recommends strongid for roundworms, I guess Ivomec doesn't work on them.
Anyways, let her recover now from all the meds. I wouldn't even give her vitamins. Her liver needs a break from all the meds she has been on.

Reti


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Good point wormwood, but the buggers are so tough usually they just "let go" and do not die. Dave


HAHAHAHAHHA! "Wormwood"....*that's* a new twist!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ivermectin does not kill tapeworm, so if that is what worm they have then it would not kill those, I have read some post on here I think from Charis where she had some rescues with such a heavy worm load it did take a long to time to rid them of the cycle of them, there are safer wormers for birds out there to use over a longer period of time. sounds like she needs another check up. I think twice a year deworming is enough, like what was mentioned before, they(worms) can become immune if they are wormed that often, I only worm if a fecal shows that I need to, and just use the med to kill that particular parasite. in others words worm when needed from a fecal test.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, I am so touched by your posts which show the love and care you gave this little pigeon. I hope she continues to improve.

We have an ongoing battle with worms mainly because we have a dirt floor in each of our aviaries. We worm all our pigeons (rescues) 3 - 4 times a year with about three different wormers. The primary wormer is Pyrantel (brand Strongid or Pamoate) which is given orally to each individual bird. We alternate with Moxidectin and Equvalen in the water.

Occasionally, we have a pigeon that needs additional help to rid them of worms. Last year, we brought our hen, ******, in because she was losing weight. She is a King/Feral mix and normal weight is between 450-500 grams. When we brought her in she weighed about 350 grams. Over the next few months, she was treated with Pyrantel a couple of times, Ivermectin also a couple of times and finally with Panacur before any real improvement showed. We followed almost the same regimen you did - Baytril, Metronidazol, Sulmet for coccidia, and hand feeding during her most critical time. The worms were really tenacious and we had to keep her in our home about 5 months. We weighed her daily, sometimes twice a day and still bring her in about once a month to weigh her. Recently, she weighed 521 grams. 

All of the above was under the guidance of our vet who saw ****** several times during this period and did fecal tests several times. Worms can be tenacious and it sometimes takes several meds to knock them out. Our vet has told us that Pyrantel is a very "forgiving" med in that it can be given several times. We usually give it once, and 10 days later give it again. In ******'s case, we gave it a third time after another 10 days. To the best of my memory we did that schedule two times. I really believe though that it was the Panacur that finally took care of them but you have to be very careful with that drug and give an exact dosage. You can't give Panacur often like you can Pyrantel.

I don't know what type flooring you have. One thing that has helped our situation until we can get a wood floor in, is to put a layer of black paper down (the kind you can get at a home and garden store to keep weeds from growing in flower beds) then cover with wood chips. Our vet contacted another vet in Oklahoma about our problem. He said he also has dirt floors and the way he solves the worm problem is by digging up the soil two inches and replacing the soil with sand. He does this once a year but at six months he will dig up one inch of the sand/soil and add fresh sand. He worms two times a year.

I didn't mean to write a book but this is a subject near and dear to my heart  and this information may help someone else later. IMO, you have done all the right things to help your little pigeon.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

So glad you have the idea to pick up the Strongid, Msfreebird!

My vet says his favorite wormer is ivermectin, but he also uses Strongid. Both are preferable (to his mind) to Panacur.

If it were me, and the number of birds made it feasible, I would only worm as needed rather than routinely.

Jennifer


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry Wolfwood, that was not intentional! Dave


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Sorry Wolfwood, that was not intentional! Dave


 Not a problem - Knave - no - really .... 

<I'm just kidding, Dave!>


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL! I had worms on my mind, OH NO I HAVE BRAIN WORMS! dave


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

I talked with my vet about using Ivormec and baytril for my birds. He said no, Ivormec is for mammals. He also is wary of baytril (I am pretty sure that is the med we were discussing, the cows were getting antsy and moving and shoving us during our conversation.) as it is a powerful anti-biotic and he said he would not prescribe it for my birds. (I have a medicine chest I keep on the farm and he ensures I have the meds I need.)
Where do you get the baytril? Where do you find info on ivermec for birds? I wrote the company and have not gotten a response.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

UncleBuck said:


> I talked with my vet about using Ivormec and baytril for my birds. He said no, Ivormec is for mammals. He also is wary of baytril (I am pretty sure that is the med we were discussing, the cows were getting antsy and moving and shoving us during our conversation.) as it is a powerful anti-biotic and he said he would not prescribe it for my birds. (I have a medicine chest I keep on the farm and he ensures I have the meds I need.)
> Where do you get the baytril? Where do you find info on ivermec for birds? I wrote the company and have not gotten a response.


I work for a vet and she cringes a little when we talk of ivermectic for bird use. but,,, it has been proven effective when used the right way, just have to be careful. I use the ivomec drench for sheep at 3 tabls per gallon of water for one day and repeat 21 days later for one day. it is 0.08% solution. never had any problems with it. some use it topically for mites, but I have not had to do that.....yet.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

i personally like the sheep drench ivormec because it always works on outside lice an mite when put in the baths ,plus it works well in their drinking water without much of a problem as it mixes with water well .. you do have to follow directions as not to overdose an I would rather go under by a little then over when applying it to them thats for sure .. worms do take a toll on your birds especailly if they are infested and that only happens when you dont treat them at least yearly , especailly birds that are let outside to graze on your lawn.. thats just my point of veiw


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

OK, I understand the ivormec thing. It is an off label use. I tend to think the discussion about sanitation is very important. I worm my chickens twice a year (actually 4xs, once, then three weeks later I repeat, then in the fall I will do it again, the same way.)
I am not at the farm right now, but I think I use Wazine for worming, then I also use the apple cider vinegar in their water.
I am concerned with the prevalence of the drug use. There is rumors of MSRA being bred in home flocks and small animal keepers. (I guess that will be another story.)
Any info on baytril?


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

critters do build up an immunity to medicines,even pesticides,..i recall a story about ddt being srayed over forestry and bears building up an immunity to ddt,nature at its best,-food for thought,..james waller


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I want to thank everyone for their ideas and opinions. And I'll try to answer all in one post.
Tuffy hasn't stopped eating! She's gaining weight rapidly 
I do alot of my research on www.pigeoncote.com (medical formulary), and www.chevita.com. I work for a vet so I can get all my meds at cost. But unfortunately my vet does not do alot of birds. There is another vet in the area that specializes in exotics (birds/reptiles) and he has been helping me alot (he is my old boss). She had lab work done and all her meds were prescribed. For worming I've always used Ivomec (Eqvalen) Eqvalen is used for horses and is water soluable "wormer of choice for all worms except tapeworm" (quote from "pigeoncote"). It can also be used in their bath water to kill lice and mites if need be. I just don't understand why it didn't kill these roundworms!
I read fecal samples ALL DAY! In a float you are looking for eggs (rounds, whips, hooks, etc), you will also see coccidia in a float. Tapeworms are different - they are segmented. Animals _can_ have tapeworm - but have a NEGATIVE float. They shed segments and you can see them on the body (around the rectum) or on the feces, and that is usually how you find out they have them. You will only see tapeworm eggs in a float IF they happen to be shedding eggs at that time. If their not shedding eggs the float will be negative.
I'm not big on medicating unless I have to.
As to my flooring, its wood. And I've always used shavings. BUT, I read last spring that someone used sand and had good luck with it. So last summer I tried sand on the floor to see how it would work. I don't know if that contributed to this or not. I've never had a big worm problem before.
So I guess I am going to stay with strongid if I need to worm. The only thing she is getting now is acv in her water. No meds or vitamins. She's just pigging out on her food - and I got her quite a variety 
***my only other question is -- when I wormed her 2 nights ago with strongid, I only gave her *1/2 dose* because she was on deaths door. And she passed that huge ball of worms with just a half dose. Should I worm her again? And if so - when? She is still pooping out 1-2 dead worms at a time now.
Thanks again for your advise.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

UncleBuck said:


> OK, I understand the ivormec thing. It is an off label use. I tend to think the discussion about sanitation is very important. I worm my chickens twice a year (actually 4xs, once, then three weeks later I repeat, then in the fall I will do it again, the same way.)
> I am not at the farm right now, but I think I use Wazine for worming, then I also use the apple cider vinegar in their water.
> I am concerned with the prevalence of the drug use. There is rumors of MSRA being bred in home flocks and small animal keepers. (I guess that will be another story.)
> Any info on baytril?


Go to www.pigeoncote.com to the medical formulary and it lists all drugs that can be used on pigeons, uses and doses.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Wow. She must have been loaded. The die off can cause a bacterial infection so I would have the baytril handy just in case.
You will want to worm again in 10 days because this wormer doesn't kill worm eggs.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> Go to www.pigeoncote.com to the medical formulary and it lists all drugs that can be used on pigeons, uses and doses.


 if she is still expelling worms I would treat her at least two more times at 10 day intervals but thats just me ..I had a probelm with worms last year and the birds were throwing them up and I did it three times at 10 day intervals and I think it worked but I used Bayverm once an wazine twice


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> if she is still expelling worms I would treat her at least two more times at 10 day intervals but thats just me ..I had a probelm with worms last year and the birds were throwing them up and I did it three times at 10 day intervals and I think it worked but I used Bayverm once an wazine twice


Sounds good to me, but my old boss recomended strongid so I think I'll stay with that. If it didn't kill Tuffy in the state she was in the other night and she passed all those worms, it must be safe and effective.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Wow. She must have been loaded. The die off can cause a bacterial infection so I would have the baytril handy just in case.
> You will want to worm again in 10 days because this wormer doesn't kill worm eggs.


Gee thanks Charis - lol I don't even want to hear about another infection


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't know if this will help, but I seriously looked into ivermec ,too, recently, for treating a wild baby bird, because its one the few broad-spectrum mite treatments that birds can take orally. 

I found out that its pretty risky to use. If you under dose, a bird will build up a resistance to it very quickly. But if you overdose, the bird will die, so I imagine that most vets and bird owners lean towards under dosing. From what you've described, your bird probably built up a resistance to it, and switching to the new wormer was the right thing to do, for sure. Ivermec probably has its uses, but there are drugs that are lot safer for birds and that are much more effective. For orally treating bird mites, I discovered that Moxidectin was far superior. I can't comment on worms though, sorry.

I am really happy that you found an alternative that worked. I love reading happy stories like yours. After the second treatment, she should be ok!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Thank you and what you said makes sense. I really hate to medicate unless absolutely necesary - so I tend to dose on the lower side. The first time I used Ivomec, I lost 2 birds. I used the exact dosage for their weight. The ivomec didn't kill them - but, it can cause paralysis for a short period of time. I think they got picked on by other birds while they were immobile. Since then, I lowered their dose. But I don't worm that often. At least I didn't think I did. So, I think your right.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, I would go with two more doses of Strongid spaced 10 days apart. Try alternating Strongid with Moxidectin. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, our vet says Strongid is a very "forgiving" med and is easy on birds.

So happy to read she is still doing well.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Waynette, I would go with two more doses of Strongid spaced 10 days apart. Try alternating Strongid with Moxidectin. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, our vet says Strongid is a very "forgiving" med and is easy on birds.
> 
> So happy to read she is still doing well.


I will do that. I have never heard of Moxidectin - is it as safe as strongid?
The other thing that is worrying me is --I know it will take her awhile to look and feel better. But were she was so weak when I used strongid, I only gave her *half* dose. I'm sure it didn't get all the worms. Should I give her the other half of her dose *now* OR wait until the 10 days has past?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, as far as I know Moxidectin is a very safe wormer. We have not had a problem when using it. We flock treat in the water with this and I get it from, I think, Siegels, but I'll double check that.

I would wait on the next dose of Strongid since it has already been a few days since you gave her the half dose. What is her weight and how much are you going to give as a full dose?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Waynette, as far as I know Moxidectin is a very safe wormer. We have not had a problem when using it. We flock treat in the water with this and I get it from, I think, Siegels, but I'll double check that.
> 
> I would wait on the next dose of Strongid since it has already been a few days since you gave her the half dose. What is her weight and how much are you going to give as a full dose?


Yea, you get it from Siegels. It's made by the APC (Australian Pigeon Company) and I believe Siegels is the only company that sells it.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Waynette, as far as I know Moxidectin is a very safe wormer. We have not had a problem when using it. We flock treat in the water with this and I get it from, I think, Siegels, but I'll double check that.
> 
> I would wait on the next dose of Strongid since it has already been a few days since you gave her the half dose. What is her weight and how much are you going to give as a full dose?


She's 250 grams. The dose the vet gave me was .13 ml/250gram bird.
I gave her .07 ml

I have a Foys catalogue, I'll check that.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, oddly enough, the .07 dose you gave her is what I show anyhow for a 250 gram pigeon. The .13 dose is for a 450 gram pigeon on my personal med chart. I think it is all the same strength but maybe the vet wanted you to double up that first dose although he should have told you.

This is the link to Siegels: http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog.html

I had to use the search box to find Moxidectin.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Waynette, oddly enough, the .07 dose you gave her is what I show anyhow for a 250 gram pigeon. The .13 dose is for a 450 gram pigeon on my personal med chart. I think it is all the same strength but maybe the vet wanted you to double up that first dose although he should have told you.
> 
> This is the link to Siegels: http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog.html
> 
> I had to use the search box to find Moxidectin.


OK, that makes me feel better. So I'll use the same dose when the 10 days is up. Thank you for the link, I'll get right on it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi again! Sorry, I'm in Australia so our time zones are a bit out

I believe the product `scatt' is moxidectin, and you can buy it in the US (if that's where you're from).


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Hi again! Sorry, I'm in Australia so our time zones are a bit out
> 
> I believe the product `scatt' is moxidectin, and you can buy it in the US (if that's where you're from).


Two things: Not only is your time out of sync, you can't seem to ever be on the same day as us Yanks!

The moxidectin sold by Siegels's is from APC Pigeon Company. Knop them? The A stands for Australian.....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

risingstarfans said:


> Two things: Not only is your time out of sync, you can't seem to ever be on the same day as us Yanks!
> 
> The moxidectin sold by Siegels's is from APC Pigeon Company. Knop them? The A stands for Australian.....


Lol 

Yes, thats correct. The weird thing is although an Australian company supplies Moxidectin, it's illegal to buy the product `scatt' here.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

In 40 years, i have never seen such a hopla about worming! Do a fecal if you think you need to do it, KEEP your lofts clean, by the way, just scraping is useless, scrape, vaccum, and spray with bleach or another GERM/parasite killer.
You will NEVER control worms by just scraping. JMVHO, Dave


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> In 40 years, i have never seen such a hopla about worming! Do a fecal if you think you need to do it, KEEP your lofts clean, by the way, just scraping is useless, scrape, vaccum, and spray with bleach or another GERM/parasite killer.
> You will NEVER control worms by just scraping. JMVHO, Dave


Dave...you must not have spent the last 40 years around us Pigeon people. 
We know you can't control worms by JUST scraping. Worms are a real problem and their presence can't always be told be running a fecal.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

Dave your always the charmer lol


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Lakota, if charm were money, i would be even poorer! LOL!


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

well then you could work on it til you made a few cents now couldnt you lol


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Gee Wizz i was a pigeon person LONG before this site was founded, LETS TAKE A POLL. I Know there are some, because i have communicated with them. How many people on this site GREW up with pigeons, USED to dream about them, and studied about them, for, let me see....... OH yeah i am getting old.


Dave I once told a story of my mentor who died nearly 25 years ago , the story went that he used to raise helmets and his brother in law talked him into letting them fly because as you hear everybody say pigeons were ment to fly free and well he didnt want to but like I said his brother inlaw talked him into it because well as I said they are pigeons right ?? well he let his flock of about 25 helmet pigeons out of the loft and they all just flew away never tp be seen again .. now this is where the twist comes in lol I told this story here and that it happened over 20 years ago and someone said to me (mind you this was wayyyy before computers an all the knowedge we have today) why did he let them out they are show pigeons everybody knows that he shouldnt have done that ... yeah telling me this over 20 years later really makes a difference now lol wooooo pigeon people


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Nah, As was said "To thine own self be true" Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> Sorry, BUT you ARE getting carried away with the worming. I have an old book, talks about parasites, in man, birds dogs ect. IT really explains the association between parasites, and host. When i find it, (I have WAY too many books) I will give you the title IF you say you keep your lofts as you replied. YOU would not be freaking out about worms so much. WORMS, that a fancier has to worry about, are the type PICKED up after being expelled by an infected bird. Of course to much time wandering the lawn not only lets them pick them them up though primary hosts, such as snails, Ect. But exposes the birds to the BIG "H" word. Dave


With all due respect - Dave, Charis isn't the one freaking out about worms. I am. I have a very sick bird that I am trying to help. I started this thread because the Ivomec wasn't working, and wanted to know if anyone else ever had this problem. Isn't that what this forum is for? I'm not going back into details, but if you read my original post you will see that I sent fecal samples out to the lab, and did everything I was told to do by my vet. And it didn't work.
My concerns were answered here, and I'm taking the advise that I was given.
And btw, I do clean my loft.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

All i am saying, Wormers are a form of TOXIN. Over doing it is worse then the Worms.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I think also, that some of the posters here are forgetting that the vast majority of birds that are discussed here are either ferals or lost racers, rollers, etc.........that's a whole different ballgame when it comes to meds and worming, etc.......doesn't it? 
I agree with you Dave, that throwing a bunch of "junk" at our loft birds and pet birds is WAY overdone a lot of the time, but when you rehab and are constantly taking in birds "off of the street" that you have NO IDEA where they came from, what they've been eating, drinking, associating with........it's a different scenario, IMO.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> With all due respect - Dave, Charis isn't the one freaking out about worms. I am. I have a very sick bird that I am trying to help. I started this thread because the Ivomec wasn't working, and wanted to know if anyone else ever had this problem. Isn't that what this forum is for? I'm not going back into details, but if you read my original post you will see that I sent fecal samples out to the lab, and did everything I was told to do by my vet. And it didn't work.
> My concerns were answered here, and I'm taking the advise that I was given.
> And btw, I do clean my loft.


Msfreebird did they check for cocci too Im just curious because that an worms both wreck havock especially when the birds immune system is compramised..just a thought.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Lovebirds, good point, but, MOST, not all Ferals, spread any Vectors, I.E parasite eggs, cocci, germs ect. over a larger area, and have not near as much a risk as birds in close confinement. Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes, the original diagnosis was coccidia and roundworms. Thats when I started treating her. I noticed she was "going light" in the loft, so I brought her inside.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

well I think the cocci an worm treatment together might benefit this bird being that worming is just for a day and then run the cocci treatment for the 7 days depending on what you are using ,is this a young bird ?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> well I think the cocci an worm treatment together might benefit this bird being that worming is just for a day and then run the cocci treatment for the 7 days depending on what you are using ,is this a young bird ?


But thats what I've been doing since November and it wasn't working, thats why I'm upset. She was on antibiotics for cocci and ivomec for roundworms. Coccidia cleared up. Ivomec did not kill (or get rid of) the roundworms. Thats why I tried strongid, and she passed that huge ball of worms. So she obviously has a huge worm infestation.
I've never had a worm problem before. She's about 6 years old.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

well then maybe the next time you worm her use wazine which you can get at just about any feed store to mix it up a bit  3 wormers back to back sure cant hurt .. I have to admit that one time I used the 3 in 1 GLOBAL`S MULTI MIX meds and I was supprized at how well it expelled my birds worms so thats just another thing to consider 







at http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?action=showprod&id=8


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Thank you, this is alot to take in but I'm checking it all out.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

By the way Charis, you repeated everything i said.funny some how. Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LUCKYT said:


> Well, i will re post this one, some how my last reply "went up in thin air"
> When it comes you think i am not of the pigeon world, i humbly request you think again. this post is not the same as the last one, but it will have to do.
> *I suggest you research the meds. you give your birds. *
> I cannot think of a kinder way to put it.
> ...




LuckyT, I do not judge or question anyone else's experience - its not my place to do that. I came here with the problem because what was prescribed by a VET was NOT working and Tuffy was dying.
But I would like to clear up a couple things for you so maybe you will better understand me and my problem. 
I have been a vet tech for 36 years, but with everchanging "facts" due to research, I don't claim to know everything. If anything, with current research it just makes treatments MORE confusing! I've also rescued and raised birds and small animals for over 40 years. This is just my background info.
Somehow, and I'm sorry for that, you got the impression that I overmedicate. Medications make me very nervous because I do know the effects they can have. I medicate only when necessary and when labwork calls for it.
I've had pigeons for 15 years now, and I NEVER wormed them up until 2 years ago. They never got anything except clean water and food twice a day, and cleaned regularly. But 2 years ago I took in 11 homers and tumblers from a neglect/abuse situation seized by the NHSPCA. And apparently worms came with them. I was advised that I should worm them 3 times a year.
I've also learned that everybody has different opinions about medications and wormers. So I take the different opinions and RESEARCH them BEFORE I do anything.
So to narrow this down, I brought Tuffy in (in November) because she was going light. Had her checked out, did all the labwork, fecal floats, cytologies and she was treated for what came back positive. There was no improvement so her medications were being changed - and that wasn't working either. I've only used Ivomec the past 2 years, but it didn't kill the roundworms she had. And actually at one point in the middle of treatment for coccidia, I ran another float for worms and that came back NEGATIVE. But like I said, last week when I was sure she wasn't going to be alive when I got home, I brought home some strongid (and I still don't know why I did this because her fecal float was negative). I gave it to her, I guess, as a "last ditch effort". And thats when she passed the giant wormball!
My other 50+ birds are fat and happy and popping out babies everywhere! I think they are trying to replenish the flock after loosing so many to the norway rats that broke into my loft in December 
So just to clear this up - I'm not judging you, so please don't judge me.
I don't race or show - these birds are my "family" and it is up to me to take care of them. I don't medicate as a "maintainence procedure" - only when its called for. But I do get extremely irritated when I medicate for a specific thing- and it doesn't work! 
Thats why I started this thread.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Waynette, I am personally getting irritated with you having to "defend" your actions. I think you have done everything right in this situation. I expect Dave would have a hissy fit if he knew all the problems we have with worms. It is an ongoing battle and I don't hesitate to worm our guys because I have a great vet and if she tells me a wormer is as safe as it can be, then I listen to her.

I realize that our situation is different because all the pigeons we get in are rescues with varying illnesses, injuries. When we first started rehabbing pigeons, we lost some and still do for that matter no matter what we do, BUT, after talking with our vet, we began treating the pigeons from the minute they get here for worms and cocci. If they don't show improvement in 2-3 days, we treat for canker. In some cases we also treat with either Bactrim or Baytril. This regimen works well. Our losses decreased and that is the main goal. This doesn't mean we give meds "willy-nilly" and are very careful in our dosage and follow-up with probiotics. I have seen no lasting effect on any of the pigeons we have kept. Meds have their place and I am grateful they make such a difference.

Anyhow, just venting a bit.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry all,Been a rough week, i have one HECK of a case of Cabin fever/spring fever. Plus with work slowing down, not sleeping, BUT there is no excuse for me going off on anyone. I would like to think you are seeing me at my worst. i am seeing a Rehabbers side of things more now, it is more like Animal hospital/nursing home. I Should have known better.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Dave, no harm done from my point of view. I appreciate your comments. I'm suffering from cabin fever also and can't wait until this cold weather ends. I can't remember a winter with so many days of sustained cold in our area and I'm ready for it to end. Thanks.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Thank you, you are kind, and forgiving Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

No harm done here either - I was just trying to clear things up.
Ahhh yes, Cabin Fever does it everytime! But I'm just a little sick and tired of all the ice, cold AND shoveling my roof!


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Thank you FreeBird. Dave


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