# What are these pigeons? Help with colors and genetics..



## bluedingo (Oct 10, 2008)

I've got some questions on what the genetic makeup and color of these racing pigeons are. They are of the red color I believe, and I think I they are a yellow hen and an undergrizzle red male. The birds are young, only 45 days old, so they're color should change a bit correct? I'm really not sure about colors nor they're genes, so if y'all could take a look and let me know that would be great! The mother and father, similar in color to each other, were both very dark red in the chest but almost completely white in the head and wings. Thanks for the help!


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Interesting colors for homers*

The one on the right appears to be recessive yellow and a self colored bird but can't see enough of it to be sure.

The red one appears to be recessive red but which factors give him the pattern that he has, I'm not sure. I would think it's more than just under grizzle but maybe not. I wonder if it is two types of grizzle combined. It may well get more white or more color as time goes on, usually more white.

Bill


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## bluedingo (Oct 10, 2008)

They are unusual aren't they? I was told that they are birds that originated from a lineage in the middle east, and are second generation in the US. The hen on the right is completely that color over her wings and back as well. What does it mean when she is "self" colored?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Self just means nothing else*

Self is simply one plain color, no white. A blue bar or blue check with no white feathers is a self for example. They will have whatever markings, bars, checks, tail bar but no other colors outside the base color.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Bluedingo, Can you show us the parents of these two birds? I agree with Bill you have a recessive red and a recessive yellow.I also believe that the recessive red will molt out a lot of those red feathers and show more white*GEORGE


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## bluedingo (Oct 10, 2008)

Interesting, thanks for the info. Here's a picture of the Hen and cock that had these youngin's. The hen is hanging out with the eggs. Can one infer the genetics of the parents or the children from these pictures?


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

No inferring is need. The parents are both recessive red mottles. That means all the young are recessive red and/or recessive yellow if the sire carries dilution (if so all the yellows are hens).

The first bird pictured looks to be not only recessive red, but possibly also undergrizzle in the bird as well. It's really a very attractive pigeon. As for the mottle effect, there is still some question as to why that happens. According to Ken Davis (almondated) it seems to be an unknown bronze in the birds that causes this.

Frank


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Frank*

What do you see in dad that looks under grizzle? I thought under grizzle was white at the base of feathers. He does look as though he may have bronze. I have figs with both types of grizzle (or so it seems) and am making some interesting observations in them. More about that when I figure out what I have.

I'm not questioning, I just wonder what you see. To me, it looks typical grizzle which makes RR's mottled. I don't see why they need bronze for this to happen as this was noted in Quinn's book without the presence of bronze in RR's. Bronze may alter it in some way as well but what I've seen is that it just intensifies the red color. I'm trying to pay close attention to what it does in my rollers.

I have many rollers like this and I also have alot of bronze. I'm tying to sort all this out in my birds and plan to do some more testing next breeding season to try and figure out just which grizzle factors that I have. I don't see under grizzle in my rollers but it could be there.

These homers (mom and dad) must both be het grizzle as one of the kids is a self. The light grizzle youngster is likely homozygous. I'm sure you agree with this.

Bill


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## bluedingo (Oct 10, 2008)

In response to your undergrizzle question, from what i've read I think that might be it. The red is in fact on the ends of the feathers, with the white starting at the base. If it were homzygous for this trait I'm thinking it could be this drastic (correct me if i'm wrong). Now in doing some more research, it came to my attention that an ash red that is undergrizzle actually undergoes the reverse, as seen in the feather pics on ron huntley's page:

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/griz.html

However, since this is a recessive red, not an ash red, would that be why i'm getting the feather that looks more like a blue grizzle (aside from color)? Therefore, based on this premise, would the true color actually be a blue or brown? I'll try and get some feather pics this afternoon. I've got a pair of blue checks that i'm probably going to cross breed'em with to get some interesting colors (and fast pigeons!). Thanks for the help!

Also, on a side note, is that yellow hen too big to band with an AU band at this point?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I have recessive reds like this*



bluedingo said:


> In response to your undergrizzle question, from what i've read I think that might be it. The red is in fact on the ends of the feathers, with the white starting at the base. If it were homzygous for this trait I'm thinking it could be this drastic (correct me if i'm wrong). Now in doing some more research, it came to my attention that an ash red that is undergrizzle actually undergoes the reverse, as seen in the feather pics on ron huntley's page:
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/griz.html
> 
> ...


Mine are figuritas but it doesn't matter. Genes are genes. I also have figs that are ash red but nearly whites. The oldest one is beginning to get adult feathers and is getting more color (ash red) than white. An interesting observation and I've heard of it but not sure if I've had it before. This may be how under grizzle works.

The yellow hen is way too large to band except with a split band. They (seamless bands) usually won't fit past 10 days at most. They should fit at around 7 days or they are too big or too small for the bird.

I would say that the bird is recessive red and nothing else, as far as color. He could be split for dilute as his father is (he has a 50/50 chance of this, if a cock bird). It could have bronze but bronze is simply a modifier. There is no reason to say that it is blue or brown. I have had many RR's that never threw anything but reds or yellows. I don't understand how they can anyway as RR is a recessive gene and only shows itself in the homozygous state.

Under grizzle is also supposed to be a recessive gene and would also only show itself in a homozygous bird. I have evidence of this in figs. This would be different than normal grizzle (or what we are all used to) in that normal grizzle is dominant and shows itself in both homozygous and heterozygous states.

Bill


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