# cant sleep tonight



## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

I m just venting. Cant sleep, because I m thinking about Cricket. She is showing symptoms of slowing down. She is a runt and i m just worrying, as i know, what this means. I finished treatment for Giardia. But since she is so small i do realize , that all her organs are small also, i m just hoping, that somehow, everything will come together.We cant get over 200 g weight yet.My experience with runts is always same, they grow till certain point and then, its like they cant manage growth anymore, their organs , that is.
Maybe it is just critical point we are at.

Nell


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

hi,sorry to hear of your anxiety with cricket,just an idea,but what about trying a tiny crumb of multi vit and a tiny crumb of chalk in his food?i read this somewhere,also it was suggested to try soya butter in a paste which is supposed to help growth and promote good health,im one of those new age types so i may suggest also some crystals in his nest/living area,jade for healing and amethyst for promoting growth,helps with kidney/liver etc,hope he is ok


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Nell,
If you need any rock crystals, let me know. I go dig about every week, and have rocks everywhere.
Daryl


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Nell.............I understand your concern. Cricket is such a little sweetie........I sure hope that her slowing down is only a temporary setback and that she will continue to show progress.

I know she is getting the best of care and treatment with you. I will pray that this little one will be OK.

Please keep us posted.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Nell...I have had similar sized young birds catch up after treament and a good diet.


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Charis, if you know something I dont, then you are more then welcome to take baby in your care, cause I m at my wits, as far as , what can be done.

I dont know nothing about crystals and homeopathy, and there is no time for me to learn with this baby as i go.

Nell


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Nell, I don't know anything about crystals and homeopathy either. All I'm saying is that they do catch up. It just takes time.
There is a Dove, mated to a Pigeon in the neighborhood where she was found. I met the lady that released the two of them and one of their babies. When she moved out of state, she just let them go.The past several years, I have noticed a few birds that have looked like Pigeon/Dove X. This bird may be one of the latest off -spring.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hang in there, Nell! I truly do know what you are thinking and feeling. I'm in that very same place with my little canker bird that lost the tip of the upper beak. No matter what I do and have done, I just can't seem to get this one over the hump. S/he is still very thin in spite of hand feeding and getting what should be fattening treats; has been wormed; has gone through a course of 5 in 1; has gone through two courses of just canker meds; still will not eat on his/her own. I'm very concerned for this little bird and even though it is still very lively, I know we are on a slippery slope and need to get to the top of the hill soon.

Here's hoping that both Cricket and my little one and going to happily surprise us very soon.

Terry


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Nell, I have a little pigeon named Toto who was such a tiny runt for so long, I never thought she would grow. I hand fed her when I realized how absolutely tiny she was after a few days of life. For months she didn't grow. It took her three months to even *begin *to fill out her feathers. She was the size of a week-old baby forever. The other babies I was raising just dwarfed her, even when they were just a few weeks old. But, she had so much heart, and she never seems to know she's tiny. She finally DID grow a bit more, and is about the size of a plump dove now. She is perfectly healthy, which I always worried about due to her delayed growth and development. Mentally, she is fine, too.  I hope your Cricket does just as well, I know she's getting great care.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Nell..........hang in there..............this little one has come this far, so obviously she is a fighter. She is getting the best of care and food.........she needs time. Don't get discouraged, I never thought my Jack would make it with all his injuries and my total lack of experience. I could have killed him.......I fed him half and half for the first 3 days..he was less than a week old. It took him months before he started to fill out and gain weight. Today, he is healthy, happy, but still a little smaller than what I would consider a full grown pigeon to be.

You have good reason to be concerned, it is a scary situation, but have faith.....be patient and hopefully little Cricket will be OK.

Sending healing thoughts and prayers to both of you....

Regards,
Louise


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell, 




Open question for all and any - 

Any ideas what Organs Giardia effects?



Too...is there any hints of 'grey', or any fine bubbles in fresh-made-poops?


Lastly...how is her appetite?


How old is she?



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi guys

Thank you so much for being here,and for your words.I love you guys.
Here is , whats is happening:
We came back from vet, after doing crop wash, flotation and gram stains.
The only thing , which is there are some positive rods.
I started her today morning on shot of Baytril, then we went to vet. I got new , oral suspension med, which is Amoxicillin Clavulante Pottassium, to cover the positive bacteria. The only problem is , this med , will have to wait a bit, cause whole GI tract
of Cricket is upset right now, she is not keeping nothing down, and vomiting.
So i m cover for 24 hrs with that shot i did. But the other medicine , would be better as far as covering the problem.But , because she is vomiting, then we are back to the basics. She got 2 drops of Pepto, hr later I did gave her 3 cc of apple sause. She is holding that for now.Her weight is now 158 g.She is huddling , her crop and intestines are dilated , due to the bacteria?. Time between the feedings got longer for 2 days prier, due to her not digesting at the same speed anymore. THere is no Candidiasis (she was on treatment for that for 10 days) And no negative bacteria.
I strongly suspect the virus (like polyoma ) to be the culprit of all the lack of feathers, bold head, sides and back, stunt growth and low weight. 
From what i read the delayed transit time or obstruction of the distal gut can be either;intestinal ileus due to generalized infection, neuropathic gastric dilatation, polyomavirus or hypotheremia.We will take it slow, go back to the beginning just wanna, it , to be a bacterial thing.
I dont have expierience with Spartrix for canker, cause i was using Emtryl always, till gone. I did gave her 1 tablet of Spartrix , the first day i got her.BUt then, when test did came back with Giardia she was on Metronidazole, so that would cover canker.

Like i said im on the ends of my wits so appreciate everybody here, I m just learning , what words of concern of other people mean. Thank you.
Nell


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Nell, thanks for not giving up - there is always hope.

One really important thing is to keep her nice and warm and no drafts. You can also get a tube of Nutrical which is a dietary supplement in a tube (like toothpaste) and squeeze about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of it into formula to help her put on weight. You can get this at most any pet store. It is a dog product used to help put on weight. Frankly, though, I wouldn't be terribly concerned right now about much weight gain. Just enough food to keep her going and get her tummy settled and the bacteria gone I think is enough. After she is better then you can start fattening her up.


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Maggie i will get that thing , Nutrical maybe like tomorrow.? I have the "INSTANT OUNCES" for sick, injured and depleted.How Nutrical was working for you?
Is that like vitamins and minerals and lactobacillus product?

Phil
Giardia, from reading has 2 stages, one of them is trophozoite, which attach its self to the surface of the villi in the small intestine..That is how much i know so far.
I m wondering if, we did killed that parasite or not, cause is very hard to see it in the faces, well its lack to catch it with only one fecal sample.She is still now and then working on her skin in such manner , that i m wondering about that.I did started her yesterday on Panacur just in case.I know , that relapses are common after treatment, either from endogenous parasites, that are not destroyed or from exposure(scratch that one)O boy, her feces, Phil, are small dark green, the urates are creamy white and urine is still clear. No bubbles.She just vomit the apple sauce. Sorry. She is not laying down , she is standing, with her head down.Gosh.BBL.

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi guys
Louise , I was trying to send You a message, but could not go thru, as I was informed , that there is no Iwerden. So I guess , by just typing here I will also answer to You. Thank You so much Louise, for Your concern.In any case , if You would like here is my email: [email protected]
Today Cricket weight is 150 g.She lost 50 g over 4 days period. She came 13 days ago with 140 weight. She is still vomiting any thing I give her, apple sauce, Gerber's baby rice. What is still amazing to me is; to see there seed. I would swear to anybody, that she never did swallow any. As she dosent have seed in her carrier, she could only go for it, when I was comming to the room, taking her out, on to the table and sitting there with her. I noticed, that she was taking in, probing and spitting and that was it???
Maybe when my eyes were on the screen, here on PT??
Could anybody know, how long seed can be in the digestive system??(in case if we talking about, seet she got it, before, she came here)No, that sounds like absurd to me...
Well..just bugs me
I m keeping her on SQ fluids, pepto and that is pretty much all so, far, cant count the rice, cause, she is vomiting that, and now, not even trying to eat (I m doing baby nipple thing, instead tube in). Gave her second shot of Baytril in the morning,pepto has some aspirin in it. I m not doing Panacur for now (she had only yesterday and day before). As she will not keep any oral medicine anyhow will try and attach some pic, if I will be able to figure out attachments, to this box, here.
Lovia guys. Nell and Cricket


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

That is taken today, now have to go back to photobucket for a second one, cant post 2 at one time, like some other people CAN

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay , here is second one, you can see her keel bone.

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell...




Much of this is not inconsistant with a foreign object in her Crop or Gizzard.


If she vomited 'Seeds' and has eaten none since you've had her...these Seeds would pretty well have had to have been in the Crop.


PPMV in young Pigeons can occasion a syndrome where the Bird stands 'Head down', eyes open or eyes closed...even to where the tip of their Beak rests against the cage floor...no appetite...and digestive system shut down, with only dabs of bile being 'pooped'...liquids may pass, with some Urates being made...hence, Nutritous Liquids are about all one can do...tubing these in...along with meds for secondary infections.


Similarly if 'solid' foods will not pass or be processed...then, nutritous lquids are the recourse.


'Nutrical' dissolved in Black Cherry or Elderberry Juice or conentrate...for example...warmed to close to Body temperature, tubed-in.



A semi-blocked pasage from Crop to Stomach, or, a foreign object lodged in the Gizard, either way, causing things to pile-up, could give rise to pretty well everything you have described, including subsequent illnesses-baterial issues digestive-tract-wise...systemi-wise.


This would be hard to detect...since it is too far 'in' to palpate.



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,




Seeing the images...I would say PPMV does not appear to be an issue.



Canker in the lower Crop...with potentially troublesome inflamitory debris causing a partial 'dam' blocking the passage to the Stomach...can be about as vexing as a lodged foreign object would be...far as creating these same problems.


Was there any odor to her Crop?



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi Phil  There is no smell of any kind coming from her inside mouth or from her poops, which now are not coming anyhow, the last one was like 3 hrs ego, she now and then try to vomit, but at this point nothing is coming out, neither thru her upper or bottom . Im offering her baby food in baby nipple, as I dont wanna go with the tube there yet, specially , that she was vomiting today morning at 7 am, what she took .
Altho one thing is interesting, you know....The color of the vomit was yellow , with the seed in it, but , what i was giving her yesterday and today in the morning, was white color. (Gerber baby rice) I guess i would expect to see , what went there , to come back pretty much the same thru her mouth.
I m counting , when she got Ivermectin, that was on the 6th, she started acting ...lets see today is 11th minus today, yesterday, posted first time ,day before that, and notice her slowing down 2 days prior to that, so 11 minus 5 days, that is...shout, that is the day she got her IVERMECTIN....
wow, that is possible..the adult worms, shout , now what I do...
Thanks fill , you got me thinking here, you see.. 

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Im going to go for a hairball remover for cats, diluted in some water and give it to her in via the tube, as she is not passing anything, she is completly stack. That way im thinking to by pass her crop and go into the stomack..0.4 cc

Any ideas??? Done before and is working or nope??

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell...



She's too young to have likely had any issues where 'Ivormectin' would have been needed.


'Yellow' goo or inflamitory slime can be assoiated with Canker...though the Guardia regimen should have taken care of any Canker troubles.


I have no idea what is in 'Hair Ball' dissolvers...can you say what is in it?


If nothing is passing solid-food wise...'formula', being granular...will tend to 'dam' up what otherwise might have been fine ways around or through the blockage or impediment, hence, 'Nutritious Liquids'...


What were her recent poops? Bile? Or 'fecal matter'?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,




Had 'Worms' been positively determined?


Fromwhat you have desribed...I would consider to tube-feed Nutritious Liquids (ie: 'Nutrical' dissolved in Black Cherry or Elderberry Juice or semi-dilute Concentrate...)...to which enough Raw Apple Cider Vinegar has been added, for the proportion of Vinegar to be about as four Tablespoons to the Gallon.



What meds is she getting presently?



What-all meds, in review...has she been on so far?



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi Phil stuff in the hairball remover:malt extract, liquid petrolatum,glycerine,natural salmon flavor,acaccia and VIT B

Hairball is not granual, its smoth pasty kind like. I see ther just small thing being green and white and wet paper, which tells me, she is not completly obstracted, but is stack anyhow.

Nell


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Nell.

Sorry to hear your little one is not doing too well.

I have been through a bad episode of GI stasis with a bird a few years ago and I thought I would post a few thoughts.

First, my vet told me that many hair ball removers for cats are generally petroleum based and should be used with real caution in birds, as they may move a blockage further down the GI tract worsening matters and then actually coat it with oil so that it is harder to breakdown, making things worse.

I used digestive enzymes, from a health food store, about 1/4 capsule a few times a day in warm water, 6 cc with a 1/2 cc of lactulose, a mild laxative, in it to help soften things up down there. Half an hour after giving this I also used a back massager set on low to vibrate my birds body. The way I did this was to cup my hand over the front of her breast and bring the massager again my hand so I could better gage just how strong the vibrations were and did this for 10-15 seconds 3-4 times a day.

Finally, when they get jammed up like this you must stop all seeds, Kaytee formula or baby food until things start to resolve. I used a vegetarian based baby formula mix like this one, it has to be soy based as birds can not digest milk based ones, http://www.nutrition.nestle.ca/en/our_products/infant_formula/alsoy_omega . It can be mixed up to the consistency of milk, so it is very thin and able to by pass many blockages and still be very calorie dense and provide not only the needed calories, but maintain hydration as well.

Good luck with her and I will keep her in my prayers.

Karyn


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks Karyn.
O boy is she jammed..se is trowing up the little water she took..so we see I do have digestive enzymes, i dont have lactulose, where did you got that??

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Phil, she was 10 days on Metronidazole (Giardia) , 10 days on Nystatin (Candidasis just in case), I time on Ivermectin, yesterday and day before on Panacur, Yesterday and today on injectible Baytril

Nell


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Lactulose and Nutri Cal you can get from your vet. But be careful with the nutri cal if its a blockage. (It is the same consistancy as hairball remedy.) When I use it I dilute it with a little warm water to break it down.
Good luck, if I can think of anything else I'll chime in


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Hi Phil stuff in the hairball remover:malt extract, liquid petrolatum,glycerine,natural salmon flavor,acaccia and VIT B
> 
> Hairball is not granual, its smoth pasty kind like. I see ther just small thing being green and white and wet paper, which tells me, she is not completly obstracted, but is stack anyhow.
> 
> Nell



Hi Nell,



'Hairball' stuff sounds alright...won't do any harm anyway...


'Poop' wise...if it is 'Bile', it will be a Green 'gel'...it will smear with a finger tip on White Paper as if it were 'Paint'...


If fecal-matter, it will have seperating elements and show 'fibre'...even if green color.


If it is Bile...it is a signal that nothing is getting through.



Fecal-matter from liquid diets can of ourse show approximately no fibre...though these are often brown or tan...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Thanks Karyn.
> O boy is she jammed..se is trowing up the little water she took..so we see I do have digestive enzymes, i dont have lactulose, where did you got that??
> 
> Nell



Hi Nell,



Have you palpated the lower Crop to see if you an feel anything unusual?


Is she still on Nystatin or Medistatin?


What meds had she been on?


What meds currently?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Phil, she was 10 days on Metronidazole (Giardia) , 10 days on Nystatin (Candidasis just in case), I time on Ivermectin, yesterday and day before on Panacur, Yesterday and today on injectible Baytril
> 
> Nell




Panacur could probably be making her throw up...just on it's own.



Why the various 'Wormers'?


Was there a positive diagnosis of endoparasites?


Why Baytril?


Meaning - what leads you to suspect an illness-infection for which Baytril would be the recourse?


What were the original symptoms? prior to the wormers?


What were her particulars originally? Eating wise, poop-wise, otherwise?



Phil
l v


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## loftkeeper10 (Jul 31, 2004)

Try brewers yeast and cod liver tablet one each every day have seen birds that i thought would be dead and gave this to them and it did the trick


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Phil Currently she is second day on injectable Baytril
Other meds (metro and nystatin) I finished 3 days ago
Her poop little bitty has some green matter in it, consistency like gel with stuff being like gluey, if you close four fingers, with the paper and poop between your fingers and you will open them , this matter is like...egg whites consistency which is stretching its self, quite a bit, the rest is just a green color on paper.

Ms Freebird, I still dont have the Nutri Cal I did not go today anywhere.
Thank You. Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

BRB, have to do the digestive and water right now for her


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Great job so far! We're all pulling for her. She is a real little sweetie, isn't she? What a precious little face. You're both in my thoughts and prayers for an easy (easier!) recovery road!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Phil Currently she is second day on injectable Baytril
> Other meds (metro and nystatin) I finished 3 days ago
> Her poop little bitty has some green matter in it, consistency like gel with stuff being like gluey, if you close four fingers, with the paper and poop between your fingers and you will open them , this matter is like...egg whites consistency which is stretching its self, quite a bit, the rest is just a green color on paper.
> 
> ...




Hi Nell...


Sounds like Bile and Mucous...


At this point...and or prior to this...your Bird is apparently starving.


Anyway...any Pet Store will have 'Nutrical' or it's equivelent...usually this is used for puppies and kittens.


Are you sure she has been adequately hydrated during her regimens?


Meds can cause problems if the patient is dehydrated...



Starvation...in and of itself...or moreso, when adequate hydration is not acheived-maintained, can see a digestive system shut down and reject foods...aside from other problems.


If not seeing twenty five or more 'decent' Urates-a-day...she may well have been or still be seriously dehydrated.


If they are not drinking volentarily...rehydration or hydration-maintenance Liquids/eletrolytes have to be 'tubed' into the Crop.


This by judgement of course...and with respect to their Crop's ability to pass the liquids...


If the Crop is not passing liquids, then obviously there is a problem...



Where rehydration solutions such as 'Ringer's Latate' of the kind intended for sub-q...would be injected into thighs below the skin, or, into the Peritonium.





Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Phil Giardia came from the fecal at some lab
The rest stuff, I always do , period.
Which means, who ever comes (not hatchlings or really debilitated or cat caught ) gets first the dewormers. Ivermectin, and Panacur, no if or buts, , maybe that is why, throu all those years, I never had any issues with parasites in birds.If they had any I did kill them, not even knowing. That is the tactic we do, or at least I did learn to do. Never "saw" a Giardia" problem before, altho I knew from hearing and reading about it.Most of the time I dont even know, what kind of parasites birds come with, I dont need to know, cause I m treating them for all. The only difference is tape worm.(DRONCIT)
And only because is very rare (had only 4 birds with that)So there is no reason to do it to every one. 
ALL THE BIRDS DO HAVE PARASITES, even if, they dont acting yet. So that method is just safer and cheaper, then doing fecal on everybody. In baby birds season Im dealing with like 50, 60 birds on my own, feeding , cleaning, changing, so dewormer is the first choice.With Cricket I did a bit a differently, cause she was a debilitated baby, and there came her fecal, which said Giardia, so I did concentrated on that, cause , that was known thing at least. Then because Giardia is common with a Candidasis I started Nystatin, although i did not know for sure, is just precaution measure one does in rehab.Baytrill is just drug of choice, since she cant hold anything orally . And antibiotic came from crap wash and gram stains, remember I mentioned that few posts before, on page 1, Phil : Positive rods.

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Phil do you read the posts??? like before you type in ..??

Go back a few posts before your last one..

Nell


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank You Maryjane and Loftkeeper. I Appreciate your concern.

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Forget it then...


For every five quesytions I ask...you reply to one.


Can I read?


None of us read perfectly...you included.


You don't like the questions...


Alright...


I am "done"


It's your problem...you figure it out.




Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Phil :
Hey I like you to much, to let you go, just like THAT, come back here, right now !!!

Lets see, what i did forgot: before that she was eating just marvelous from my tube, her crop could only hold at the best day 15 cc, she gain from 140 , to 200 = 60 grams.

Her poops were the best in the world. Altho, when she came , she had diarrhea and was very, very stinky. NOw , did I make you happy ???

Lovia Phil..You come back here, you hear>>>>

Nell


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

With all due respect, and I am not judgeing anyone's procedures, I was also curious to the answers to the questions that Phil asked. Metronidazole can cause vomiting if the dose is too high, and panacur can cause vomiting also (although I never use panacur - from the research I've done its sounds too risky) So I was actually wondering (also) if maybe they were the cause of the vomiting. It would seem to me that if there was a blockage, there wouldn't be any poops


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

yes, with the partial blockage you will have a partial pooping.

Nell


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Then from what you wrote I'm guessing the mix of worming meds may be the cause of all the vomiting. 
Whenever I have a compromised bird and suspect internal parasites, I give a light dose of ivermectin (I use Eqvalan). They will pass worms with the light dose and it tells me whether they have them or not. Then I repeat that in 5 days. I am very conservative with meds (I've mentioned this before) because I've seen too many times what can happen with over doing it.
Metronidazole (at the higher dose) can also cause problems. That is my choice of medication (I have very good luck with it) but I use the lower dose (25mg BID)
I hope this helps


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you for your input Msfreebird. 
I have avian medical charts for weights and appropriate dosages for Ivermectin and Panacur and the antibiotics used in birds. I never had bird vomiting due to the dewormers.
So I have to say I do save deworming. She started vomiting prior to the Panacur , that was the reason I took her to vet.I really dont thing she was vomiting a couple days kater cause she got Ivermectin. I was told by the vet, that she may have all her problems due to the bacteria, but my counting and, before that, Phils thought, got me to retracking my steps and looking in her chart, what I did and when. That is how, I started thinking about blockage due to the dead, adult worms in her. Or like vet said, bacterial causes.
I appraciate though your input. Thank You. Nell


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*No More Sniping, Please ..*

Let's stop sniping at each other in this thread and try to help. Getting onto one another doesn't do a thing for this little bird.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Phil :
> Hey I like you to much, to let you go, just like THAT, come back here, right now !!!
> 
> Lets see, what i did forgot: before that she was eating just marvelous from my tube, her crop could only hold at the best day 15 cc, she gain from 140 , to 200 = 60 grams.
> ...



Hi Nell,



Okay...


Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

There you are...Are you still mad with me??

Sorry i did not mean it that way, cause i always really apreciate, when i see your thoughts there in different posts. You remember that always, Phil. I really like YOU.

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Msfreebird said:


> With all due respect, and I am not judgeing anyone's procedures, I was also curious to the answers to the questions that Phil asked. Metronidazole can cause vomiting if the dose is too high, and panacur can cause vomiting also (although I never use panacur - from the research I've done its sounds too risky) So I was actually wondering (also) if maybe they were the cause of the vomiting. It would seem to me that if there was a blockage, there wouldn't be any poops



Hi Nell, Msfreedbird,



This seems a good observation to me.


Vomiting can be brought-about in individual Pigeons, by Metronidazole ( though this is possibly less likely if their Crop is Acidified with prior and concurrent ACV-Water ) and vomiting is even more likely to occur with 'Worming Meds'.


It is crucial with this situation that 'Bile' is not being confused with sall deposits of green-color fecal-matter...since it is very common error to assume 'something is getting through' when in fact nothing is, and one is seeing dabs of Bile, mistaking these for 'poops' proper.


This is some of what would be good to be clear on for this.


Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

okay...lets see

Fed her via tube like hr ago, she is not vomitting yet, althou takes her around 1 hr or so to due that.No poops yet. From that feeding.
What she did prior to that feeding she passed water finaley my color (rice and apple sauce and digestive). But went out like water, cause went in watery. But I saw the color i thought I should.But that was before this last feeding. No poops yet.

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Msfreebird said:


> Then from what you wrote I'm guessing the mix of worming meds may be the cause of all the vomiting.
> Whenever I have a compromised bird and suspect internal parasites, I give a light dose of ivermectin (I use Eqvalan). They will pass worms with the light dose and it tells me whether they have them or not. Then I repeat that in 5 days. I am very conservative with meds (I've mentioned this before) because I've seen too many times what can happen with over doing it.
> Metronidazole (at the higher dose) can also cause problems. That is my choice of medication (I have very good luck with it) but I use the lower dose (25mg BID)
> I hope this helps



Hi Msfreebird, Nell,



Also...these seem very good observations to me.


As does Worming by stages, in case bad concentrations of Worms are present.


Now, as far as my own experience goes, I have had three instances out of probably a thousand Pigeons, where anyone 'caughed up a worm'...and I have always ckecked everyone's Water Bowls, and the Common Waterers.



Similarly, among the many fecal analysis occasions I have had done, none ever showed positive for any sort of Worms.

Of course, many endoparasites will be of kinds where no 'worm' ends up in anyone's Water Bowl...


And, I have had Pigeons or Doves who I 'thought' might have Worms, who seemed to be having 'issues' and when I treated for Worms, the Bird was soon back to Health...though no tests had been done, and no 'Worms' were seen in post-medicine poops.


So...Worms definitely occur here...I dose the Common Waterers now-and-then, with follow-up...but, they do not seem common.



So, for me, I have probably treated new-arrive Pigeons for worms, around one time in three hundred, when signs of abdominaln disomfort were present...but only if their Health otherwise seemed fairly strong...and never once in these occasions seen any Worms in the poops or otherwise.



So...for me, Worms have never seems a matter on principle...rather, an occasional thing...or a case-by-case thing.


Now, maybe in Oregon and other areas, Worms or other endoparasites are more common.


None-the-less, conspicuously young Pigeons will not usually have had time for meaningful Worm issues to have occurred, so far as I know...which is to say, one would wish to weigh the advantage of Worming a onspicuously young Pigeon or other Bird, against other present issues the young Pigeon/Bird does have, especially if they ar e underweight, or ill...and, to consider to wait untill the Bird is free of those issues, of good weight, good appetite and so on...to Worm them then...a Month or Six-Week later, or once their Health is solid and dependable.


Giardia, I know nothing about...so what it does, how it does it, what the consequences or pathology of it is, how varied...etc...I dunno...

I should know, but I have not had it definitively identified in any test-occasions, to have knowingly treated for it, and I have not read up on it.


With this in mind...I do not know at what threshold or concentration it's presence in a fecal test would recommend treatment, verses wait-and-see, verses being a background fauna within normal counts...or exceeding theonly somewhat...wherein too, possibly, the Bird may well deal with it successfully once eating and being nourished for their System to regain strengths lost in privation.


Now...with Metronidazole...the 'dose' effect, or in-effect, will be mediated by the Bird's overall hydration status and Kidney function...damage or unfavorable compromise can result from in-effect Over-Dosing, that can occur from margainal or defacto dehydration, frustrating the Kidney's filtering-processing.


So...it is important for the Bird to be definitely well hydrated for any internal medicine regimen...otherwise their kidneys might not be able to keep up.


Quantity of Urates being made each day, are one empirical guide to hydration status, as far as their Blood being filtered-processed by their Kidneys...or,atleast that so-much Urine is being made, anyway.



Anyway...those are some thoughts as might relate to the situation.




Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> okay...lets see
> 
> Fed her via tube like hr ago, she is not vomitting yet, althou takes her around 1 hr or so to due that.No poops yet. From that feeding.
> What she did prior to that feeding she passed water finaley my color (rice and apple sauce and digestive). But went out like water, cause went in watery. But I saw the color i thought I should.But that was before this last feeding. No poops yet.
> ...




Hi Nell,



If the 'Apple Sauce' is from 'china' throw it away and do not use.


If it has 'Melamine' in it, it'll destroy her Kidneys.


We should assume ANYTHING from 'china' will have 'Melamine' in it...and not risk our own or anyone else's life.



As you may now...soft foods, purree-foods, or liquid foods, 'should' still make 'solid' fecal matter...


Liquid bowel movements should not result from puree or liquid foods...


So...if the food is going through but is not digested...or, is only partially or imperfectly digested, or is digested but attended by diarrhea...then, at least it IS going through, anyway...so...that's definitely better than not-going-through at all..!


If it were me...I'd elect 'Nutrical' dissolved in Elderberry or Black Cherry 'syrup' concentrate or juice...watered down with ACV-Water to a thin liquid...and if this goes well for a day or two...then to that, add formula...so it's still 'thin'...and do that for a few days...and then after five days say, see if she has any interest in Canary Seed...but nothing larger.


Keeping her 'warm' so she is definitely "103" - "105" F or so...definitely "warm" through-and-through, would also be something I'd do...


Not suggesting you have not been...just saying in over-view, that I'd do that.


I know everyone provides warmth in their own way...but when I do it, for anyone critical, by God they are "warm"...this can really help them, vis-a-vie, not REALLY being "warm"...though warmth is ostensibly provided.




Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi Phil apple sause is USA made. Thank You a lot for Your time spend tonight trying to help.Yes, she has all the basics following the protocol for injured/sick. "See Ya tomorrow"
I m tired at this point, and have to be up early in the morning for a Cricet and aviary birds. 
Hugs. Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nightynight...



Hope little Cricket is feeling better tomorrow..!




Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Nell, sorry you're experiencing all this with this baby and I do hope she improves quickly. 

I wanted to mention to you that there is an excellent wormer called Pyrentel that you could use in place of Panacur. It is very effective yet gentle on the birds. When we first started rehabbing, our vet prescribed Panacur but later switched us to Pyrentel because Panacur was too harsh. We now only use Panacur in situations where the worm infestation is very severe. You can use our "search" feature to find numerous threads about Panacur and its dangers.

Also, we never worm a pigeon that weighs less than 100 grams. As a general rule, when we get in an adult pigeon, we routinely give them Pyrentel, Bactrim (an antibiotic less harsh than Baytril) and Nystatin. If the fecal has shown cocci then we use Sulmet to treat that.

In Cricket's case, although I have zilch experience with Giardia, the main thing I would do is keep her warm, hand feed her small amounts of Kaytee with Nutrical at one feeding, and for the other feedings I would use either plain yogurt or Benebac probiotic in the Kaytee. I think with her problems, I would go with 5 cc about every 2 hours. 

Do you worm your songbirds when they come in?


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi guys

Maggie ,Thank You for your advise and sharing your experience. I do have Pyrentel Pamoate , which i got just in case,if my new Panacur, would not make it in time.But it did, so i never had to use it yet (no dosing charts for it either). So anyhow, I m just sticking with , what i know and used and know to work. But I have to step back a lit a bit and realize, that, there is maybe something I dont know with Pigeons, as I do song birds.And ,what is working for me over those years, maybe needs a bit different approach with Pigeons??
Yes I do deworming with song birds , when they come. I m making assessment and then judgment call, what is they need, if is antibiotic, they will get that, if i dont think so, then they proceed to the next step , which is deworming. Deworming must be done, before they will get into the cages, as they sit there not by them selfs, but in numbers (then again depends on the species), and they go in to the cages as fledglings, when they eat some on their own, but I still have to supplement them also.Anyhow, there is much more behind that, which goes, depends on the situation.But I dont wanna make whole pages from that tread.
Cricket. We went today for xray and blood analysis. There is no obstruction there of any kind. So although Phil idea , gave me a rise to such suspicion.... There is nothing there. But as far as blood work goes, Vet stood up, by her original position: bacterial infection. Also she said, we dealing with chronic anemia and chronic immune suppression. Which judging be the weight and size of this bird, does make sens. Stunting sydrom.In nature , they are kicked out of the nests.The good thing is from last night feeding, there was no vomits on the paper today morning, and there where some poops there looking like poops for a change.So Baytril started doing something....Finally.
But we are taking SLOWLY. 
Cricket appreciates everybody's input, as she knows, that everybody here loves her and just wants to help. Thanks guys.
Nell


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Nell, well, at least that is some good news that there is no obstruction and lets hope the Baytril is finally kicking in.

About wormers. I know all rehabbers do things differently so it is difficult to make a judgment call about what is right or wrong. While we worm the majority of pigeons that come in, I don't think we ever had to worm any of the more than 1,000 songbirds we took in. About the only type worm we really looked out for is the gapeworm in Robins. I think they can usually be found in and around their mouth but we never saw any. If you have not experienced a problem in worming them, my motto is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Nell,

That sounds a bit more encouraging, however small an improvement it's in the right direction. At least by getting the xray and bloods done again you can rule out some of your worries and work on what you know.
I so admire your dedication to this little one.

Keep fighting Cricket.

Janet


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank You Lady Tarheel and Janet. Cricket Loves You back. 

Nell and Cricket


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Glad to hear the encouraging news about Cricket. Glad she is now able to hold down her food and is starting to form some real poops. Also glad the vet cleared her of any more complications. 

I think see needed the time for the Baytril to kick in. I pray that the worst is over and that she will continue to progress in a positive direction. I think you have the right idea with her about going real slowly with her. She needs time to regain her strength and nutrition to build up her blood and immune system.

This little bird is sure a fighter..........God Bless her little heart.

I will continue to keep you both in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm so glad to hear the encouraging news about Cricket.  I read on Chevita last night that baldness and no feather forming can be caused by malnutrition. Hopefully when you get her back on track, they'll fill in. I'm pulling for her!


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Louise, You are a very special person, I can feel it coming always thru You, when You speak. It is always healing, the love You have.

And that is , what we all need, specially, the little ones on our path.

Love You Louise and thank You  

Cricket and Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

corvid said:


> Lets see, what i did forgot: before that she was eating just marvelous from my tube, her crop could only hold at the best day 15 cc, she gain from 140 , to 200 = 60 grams.
> 
> Her poops were the best in the world. Altho, when she came , she had diarrhea and was very, very stinky.
> 
> ...





Hi Nell...


Sorry I'd probably made things seem tedious...was trying to get a handle on the continuity...what was observed...what was done...what rationalles, etc...leading to now.


One would not expect this Pigeon to have had any complete 'blockage' or foreign object obturating in the Crop or Gizzard originally then...or at least not enough to prevent the formula-feeds from being processed....but, they could be there...partially blocking things.



However...as you've possibly seen, some Bacterial illnesses/infections, when in the digestive system, can cause inflamitory debris, and this can occasion an inreasing condition of partial to even complete blockage.


Bacterial and other infections in the Crop, passage-to-Stomach, or Gizzard, can occur from foreign objects...or, independantly of any, of course.




Yours having been throwing up unacccountable Seeds, which had been in there possibly since before you'd got her...certainly suggested that by whatever reason, foods were not passing well...or, at some point, 'solid' foods were stalled, or had been stalled since before you got her...then were being later rejeted back out the 'front'...


If this was a developing infection that was creating inflamitory debris in her upper digestive system...with or without any foreign obturating infection-causing objects, then, prior Seeds may have been unable to pass...while fine enough particles or liquids, were able to pass, if poorly.



The 'Baytril' sounds like it is helping...and ideally, if debris exists in her upper digestive system, as you know, the Baytril will stop it's production, the debris will de-attatch from inside surfaces...and be conduced down her digestive system, to be pooped-out either as intact debris, or, as somewhat abnormal poops...depending on how high up it originated.



Anyway...those would be my summary thoughts...as for what might be going on with this.


Either a foreign object in the lower Crop, passage to Stomach, or lodged in her Gizzard...causing infection conditions locally, where, mucous and or inflaitory debris add to the mechanical impediment...


Or...an infection, causing inflamitory debris, with no foreign object, has been partially blocking her digestive system.


I think it would be highly unusual for a Pigeon of her age, to have had Worms, where the volume of Worms on being dislodged or deceased via Worm-meds, could block her lower GI tract...so...I'd doubt Worms would be the cause of obturation in one so young.






Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank You Phil

Nell


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Cricket is doing great!*

She has been with me since November 21st. She has gone through a molt and the bald places on her body are nearly filled in. Her weight is good, she is on a seed diet and is starting to eat on her own. She still doesn't fly but she is curious, cheerful and a delight to spend time with. She still has a ways to go but she will get there.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update, Charis. Cricket is a cutie for sure!

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's nice to hear that Cricket is doing well. Sometimes it takes quite a while to show improvement, but it's sure nice when they do. Thanks for the update.


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

Charis said:


> She has been with me since November 21st. She has gone through a molt and the bald places on her body are nearly filled in. Her weight is good, she is on a seed diet and is starting to eat on her own. She still doesn't fly but she is curious, cheerful and a delight to spend time with. She still has a ways to go but she will get there.



im so glad crickets health is improving,i have been following her progress and glad things are looking more positive,she sounds like a real little toughy and long me she continue to improve


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