# pigeon with open mouthed breathing



## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

need help with a pigeon of mine. she had been having respiratory problems on n off since 5 months. open mouthed breathing & a whistling noise sometimes. The vet here prescribed gave her DERIPHYLLIN- etofyline +theophylline which seemed to help & i gave her few homeopathy medicines too.
early december she had a fluid crop & serious digestion problems. she also used to do an swallowing act. she was on baytril & metronidazole for 10 days. then on 27th dec she again had similar symptoms of fluid crop & was not eating. i started her again on metrinidazole + baytril. she started eating on tuesday,. but since wednesday the respiratory problem came back. this time there is no whistling/rasping sound. And she is having lots of urine in poop with urates coming only in the early morning poop. she is drinking double the amount of water too. i ve started her on doxycycline since thursday 1st jan but she has shown no improvement til now. i have stopped baytril after 7 days, but continuing with metronidazole(12mg once a day). her nose is clear no discharge n no rasping/ whistling sound. i can hear a click though. the vet here checked her lungs n found them clear. but she still continues to breathe with open mouth. her breathing is better in the morning though when she is empty stomach. im attaching her video n poop pics.
is the dosage of metrogyl right for her . she still does the act of swallowing sometimes
do i start her on any other antibiotic other than doxycycline it dosent seem to be helping much. 
our vet is not an avian vet n he only asked me to give her deriphyllin again.

[/ATTACH]

breathing videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLCQX4paDIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCdIHs6ivH0

thanks.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

What does she eat? What are the colored things in the photo? Open mouthed breathing isn't necessarily infection. It can also be heart problems per our vet. I'm sure people with more experience than me can point to a number of things that lead to open mouthed breathing and fixes for this. Best wishes for your pigeon.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

That is a crap load of meds. I say give her a break, give her probiotics ask the vet for them asap. Put it daily in her water and feed her small amounts a few times a day.
As Cweb says, can be other issues even mechanical and not respiratory.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The droppings have a yellow and reddish-brown color. The yellow is because liver is affected, probably because of medicines. I would say to stop any medicine and give hepatoprotective supplement, spirulina, probiotics and vitamins (B complex). Respiratory problems can have many causes, not all of them pathogenic. The fact that she drinks lot of water may be because of coccidia. Instead of making so many treatments you could made a fecal test, but for that there must be a period of 7-10 days without medicines. 

The red-brownish color is probaby because of blood haemorrhage, I can't say what caused by.

I think the bird is in very serious condition. I would recommend contacting online dr. and ask for a paid consultation, showing him the photos:
https://www.facebook.com/DrRossPerryBirdVet

He is very experienced and gave me two exact diagnoses online.


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

she eats seed i mean-millet,green gram & lintel . right now she is on metroygyl & doxycycline.
the vet you mentioned Dr ross perry i have already contacted him he said chlamydia n it was he who asked me to give her doxycycline for 45 days n to treat other birds also with it. other than that he had asked me to deworm her which i did. the doxycycline dosent seem to have helped. i have paid him $200 in the last month & do not have any finances left to pay more. Hes already given more time than ive paid for.
Actually i had contacted him 6 months back too when she had this incident of open mouthed breathing then but at that time he said its due to ovulating & uncalcified egg. the vet here too dint give any antibiotics so it went untreated & has become serious now i think. this time im not sure about the reason but last time it was due to respiratory problem as there was whistling sound.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If it was chlamydia, it responded till now to doxy. When is chlamydia, the droppings are a little greener than usual, including the urates. When a pigeon of mine has chlamydia, usually the laboured respiration passes in few days, less than a weak.

Similarly, when you give the proper medicine for any disease, you should see results in same day (for coccidia, worms, e-coli or salmonella) or, in the case of canker, next 1-2 days. If doesn't respond, it means is something else. 

Labored breathing can be caused by fungi, aspergillus or candida. Though coccidia resides usually in digestive system, it may affect too the respiratory system: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8883786. 

Also, very important: stop giving lintel, green gram or other high protein food. This is that may have caused the liver damage. Give popcorn, wheat, sorghum as food.

To heal the liver, give B vitamins complex and hepatoprotective supplements. Also give abundently probiotics. Vitamins and probiotics must e given continuously because are them who build organism's immunity. If you gice only antibiotics or other medicines, the disease will be cleaned off but will relapse later as the bird has a defficiency in those organs / systems that allowed the pathogen to proliferate.


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

yes green droppings in chlamydia tht too bright green rt ? not the normal one .. but she's been having this dark brown black ones since a long time. i dont know if to complete the course of doxy or not dr ross has been quite accurate with his suggestions before this n has helped my birds a lot. but i cant keep on paying untill he finds the right problem

i will try coccidiosis but first i should finish 15 days metrogyl right. i think last time 10 days was not enough n the cranker came back.

i am giving her milk thisle n dandelion n a liver tonic tooo. i read we shud not give probiotics while giving antibiotics is tht true? i can start her on bee polen though

tday her breathing was better in morning it starts heavy after she eats something. do u think something related to digestion.
her water intake was normal today n urates too came so i am suspecting some kidney problem as i gave her some **** medicine for kidney issues yest.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I only now noticed you put some videos too. From these videos, I pretty much became convinced is not chlamydia. She breaths too fast, which from what I've read, can be caused by aspergillus, which in advanced state is incurable.

Air sack mites can too be an explanation. They are easily cleared off with a single administration of Invermectin, a drop on the skin of the neck.

If I was you, I would try to rule out air sack mites, and in the same tim I would take measures for aspergillus. Aspergillus, in its chronic form, advances slowly and the visible manifestations appear only when is too late. Early forms can be threated and the hope must not be lost even for advanced forms. You ideally would make a lab test, which for fungi consist of a culture with salive from patient but medicines must not be given orally for several days previous the salive sample collection. also, a radiography may reveal an aspergilloma.

For treatment of aspergillus and more info about it, read these pages:



http://www.m2birdsitters.com/aspergillosis.htm


http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...ic-Dept/Avian-Respiratory-Problem-Treatments/


http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/5...-poultry-often-mistaken-for-crd-mycoplasmosis


http://www.shagbarkbantams.com/page11.htm


http://www.piwet.pulawy.pl/bulletin/images/stories/pdf/20074/20074563568.pdf



The first measures you should take are:

-eliminate any source of humidity and dust in bird's environment.

- create a well ventilated environment and, very important, allow bird to fly in a space as big as possible, in order to make the blood circulate better in the body and wash as much of the infection as possible. Expose bird to direct sun (not through glass) as much as possible.

- start giving crushed garlic mixed with bread at least once every few days. Roll the crushed garlic and bread between finger tips to make small balls the size of a pill and give as much as bird can take without becoming distressed. Garlic stopsa the evolution of aspergillus during the period when is consummed.

- give lots of probiotics, vitamins, poweder of Echinacea, concentrated tea of Pau d'Arco.





naqshpa5 said:


> yes green droppings in chlamydia tht too bright green rt ?


Don"t know what you mean by bright green. Yellowish green? Emerald green?
This photo shows the dropping of a starvating bird, with characteristic emerald green color.









Chlamydia, being usually a respiratory disease, doesn't affect much the aspect of droppings. They preserve the formed shape and consistency, only that the urates are greenish white:









http://cockatoo-info.com/health/chlamydia-psittacosis/



> but she's been having this dark brown black ones since a long time. i dont know if to complete the course of doxy or not


The long treatment aims at completely eliminating the germ from their system, which is not beneficient. Hre is a quote from the most famous (at least on this forum) pigeon vet, the Australian dc Collins:

_Birds are treated until they are well, with treatment courses of 5 - 20 days being common. In theory, if birds are treated for 45 days with doxycycline, it is possible to clear Chlamydia from their systems. However, it is probably not in the birds’ interest to consider these long treatment courses. Birds need ongoing low-grade exposure to the organism to maintain immunity. If the Chlamydia was cleared, the bird’s level of immunity would quickly wane, leaving it vulnerable to disease if it ever re-encountered Chlamydia._
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/gotabird.html

Anyway, for Doxy to have effect, you have to stop giving grit or calcium in other form during treatment. Calcium annihilates Doxycycline (or other antibiotic from Tetracycline family)'s effect.

The problem she had with the crop likely were caused by candida, that appeared as result of (long) antibiotic treatment. And perhaps was cleared or reduced by antibiotics, though these category of medicines are not the proper ones for fungi. 

As I said, if a treatment doesn't have effect, change it. And don't give more than one medicine, maximum two / day (one in the morning and one in te evening). Medicines are toxic or very toxic, they reduce the immunity and may cause big issues and death. Your bird aqueous diarrhea can be caused by kidney damage, possibly ireversible.



> dr ross has been quite accurate with his suggestions before this n has helped my birds a lot. but i cant keep on paying untill he finds the right problem


Is not wise to idealise any vet or other human being. Honestly, when you told that Dr. Ross prescribed long doxy treament, I lost much of my trust in his discernment.



> i will try coccidiosis but first i should finish 15 days metrogyl right. i think last time 10 days was not enough n the cranker came back.


The amount of metronidazole, 12 mg / day, is insufficient to clean the canker. It must be 50 mg for a 300 gr bird. But as canker advances rapidly, the bird would been death since long ago if it was canker, so I believe it is not necessary to continue the treatment. 

Another possible explanation for respiratory problem is mycoplasma (a bacteria), for which you should give Tylan, though doxy have too effect on mycoplasma. but I don't think your bird has this bacteria. 




> i am giving her milk thisle n dandelion n a liver tonic tooo.


I would say to give industrially produced hepatoprotective supplement. I have one that contains methionine and vitamins B1 and C. B vitamin complex is very important, maybe as important as food.



> i read we shud not give probiotics while giving antibiotics is tht true? i can start her on bee polen though


Probiotics are not harmful in any way, you can gifve as much of them and anytime.Theoretically, antibiotics kill all bacteria, including the one contented in probiotics, which would make them useless during treatment, but at the reommendation of someone on this forum, I started to give probiotics during antibiotic treament and as this member described, the bird started to have solid, healthy looking droppings.




> tday her breathing was better in morning it starts heavy after she eats something. do u think something related to digestion.


When the crop is filled, probably presses on the lungs or air sacks which because have reduced capacity (because of the disease), causes labored breathing.



In conclusion, take measures for combating aspergillus, make a lab test to identify the disease, give Invermectin to rule out the air sack mites. As this form of Invermectin is external, it doesn't affect the saliva (or feces) sample for lab test but you stop all the treaments administered orally around a week before the test, in order for it to be relevant.


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

thanks for all the information. 
and specially for the link of Dr colin walker. so generally doxy is given for how many days in chlamydia. he says 7 to 20 days. ive given for 10 days. should i stop after 15 or 20. or stop after 10 days. how long should be the dose so as to not render the antibiotic ineffective later
i also suspect here is some digestion prolblem on. not only in morning she was better yesterday night too but in morning again she had a 10 g increase. i am doubting if it is ascites or her fluid crop again. coz there is a weight gain somewhere other than what she is drinking or eating. does ascites come & go. n fluid in lungs come n go too. because there was no weight gain yesterday but a weight gain today n she is not breathing properly today..also when she has this weight gain she has this weird smell(cant describe the smell) in her poop. im wondering if it is candida or a yeast infection.
And which is the safest antifungal used for birds other than nystatin- we do not get tht here. flucanazole is safer or 
And after she ate some food she had more open mouthed breathing. 
i gave her a homeo medicine for kidney issues n her water intake has gone down n she is getting some urates too in poop as of now.
i am giving her garlic every alternate day. i will give everyday if itis reccomendable.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

It surely isn't chlamydia. The body is moving too hard during breathing, that is caused by something solid in lungs, aspergillus or mites. Chlamydia would been cleared of by now and anyway, it doesn't manifest like that but by nasal & mouth liquid discharge, cough etc.

Try to make the lab test and radiography for aspegillus and give that drop of Invermectin on neck for mites. If you don't want to buy the drugk, ask a vet to do this, a drop is nothing, should do it for free.

Try to take the bird outside to breath fresh air and see the sun and give as many possible of the supplements I said for aspergillus.


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

how do we put a drop of ivrmectin on neck i have ivermectin i had given her by mouth few 10 days back. Do i use the same ivermectin on the back of neck? do i apply on skin or feathers with hand.
what do u think about the sudden weight gain. fluid accumulating anywhere?

i can get the saliva test done but it must be at least 5 days without any medication right? x ray im not sure if there is any fluid in lungs she will aspirate herself. n she is doing so much open mouthed breathing it will be very stressful for her as she is not tame dosent stay in hand.

also i mentioned tht she has a v strange smell to her poop when she has this weight gain. some sweet /sour smell i cant describe it. are there chances of candida/ yeast inf


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If you already gave invrmectin, it means is not mites, because would killed them, no matter if given orally or externally, on the skin.

The weight gain cannot be the result of fluid accumulating. Dosn't the bird look more robust? Does she have flesh (muscle) on chest or the chest is rather sharp (with little flesh)? 

Are you sure that that was smelling is poop? Couldn't be vomited content of crop?

If is poop and smells sour, there is a possibility to be canker and canker may also be causing the reaspiratory problem. If is vomiting, the bad smell indicates crop blockage, usually because of candida.

Maybe you should try give a proper treatment with metronidazole (40 mg / day, as the bird seems rather small). But if you don't see improvement in two days, stop it. Here is an example about how fast the effects of right medicine can be: I have a pigeon that passed between different diseases, being immunodepressed. Last time was making a voluminous, aqueous green-bluish, urates-less poop. I supposed is coccidiosis or canker. At noon I give coccistop, an anti-cocci medicine. Few hours later, no change in droppings aspect. An hour ago I gave metronidazole and 10 minutes ago he made a poop with urates and healthier aspect. Another example: three days ago, noticed that a recently born baby (less then a week old) is maging discolored, aqueous droppings. I started the treatment with metronidazole (I experienced something similar with another baby and at lab test appeared canker) and the droppings started to become darker, today being almost normal. So if you don't see improvement in 1-2, maximum three days, stop any kind treatment.



As a general idea, resort to medicines in as much restrictive was as possible. Medicines are for birds poisons, they don't kill only the germs but also damage the liver, kidney or other organs and reduce significantly the immune response of organism. Some medicines less, some more. For a weak bird, medicines act like a disease, weakening even more or even killing the bird. And if you don't support the organism with vitamins and probiotics, the bird will continue to be exposed for relapses of the same or other diseases.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I repost the videos with your pigeon heavy breathing, as the links are not very visible where you put them:


*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCdIHs6ivH0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLCQX4paDIA*



Maybe someone can tell if met similar symptom and knows more. 


I see the scare in her eyes, because of feeling of suffocation. You should keep her in warm, quiet and dark environment, to reduce stress. Avoid transportation by foot, as balance during walking can stress even more. Handle the bird gently and slowly and don't speak loudly or make any noises near her.


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

thanks for the inf. 
she is 250 g . 40mg/bird is for a bird of 350g rt so for 250g it wud be 28mg. does metrogyl need to be given in divided doses of 2 or once a day which is better?
no its not vomit. i literally keep an eye on her mostly its poop. n the smell comes only after the sudden gain in weight. like yest she was 245 morning but 260 in morning today. she dosent have so much of a weight gain generally. n yes she has lost a lot of weight so kneel bone is felt. shes been unwell with sour crop in month beginning too n dint get time to to recover n then this problem came up


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If the symptoms were similarly severe some months ago too, that is, they didn't worsen since then, is possible to be something non-pathogenic, an injury of some kind or a foreign body, a small solid object that entered the lungs,possibly a grain, so a radiography would be helpful, but one able to see such thing as a grain.

If is aspergillus, which I tend to think is, I'm afraid is too late to be saved, given the severity of symptoms.

Also, candida may be considered too, though from my cases of respiratory candida, it manifests rather by coughing.

Here is a quote from a respected pigeon website. Is a general advice, given for for any kind of disease, when is not known the cause:

_It is always first important to rule out canker (trichomoniasis) before you can take other steps. When the pigeons are free from canker or candida and the symptoms remain, you can give antibiotics for bacterial problems. _
http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/ask_the_vet/3722 (click on th first question on this page, to open the answer from where I quoted).


The variations between 245 and 260 gr are normal, is the difference between the bird with empty and filled crop. But don't weight her so much, any handling is stressful for a sick bird.

To make the bird regain weight, you must give a varied, nutritive and pleasantful diet. Offer her a multitude of kinds of seeds and notice which she likes the most and give of those, but not protein rich or fat seeds (these must represent no more than 5% each of the total food assimilated by bird). Read online about what have to contain a pigeon diet and don't buy seed mixes that are marketed as pigeon food, if they don't contain the seed you read online that must be found in diet. The mix that I find here contains too much peas (everal types), whch I mostly remove when giving to a sick bird. For a pigeon having the liver critically damaged by excess of medicines, the large amount of proteins and fat would only worsen the situation.


To make a new plan of action, I'd say to proceed like this:
1. Take a radiograph. Tell them is a rescued bird and they may make a discount. If nothing appear in radiograph or if you decide not to make it, pass to step 2.
2. In the first day, give only one administration of Fluconazole, to rule out candida. Dose: 1 mg. This drug is nephrotoxic, may damage the kidney, possily in an irreversible manner. Btw, the problems of your birdm the lack of urates, may be caused by kidney failure.
-If breathin don't improve after Fluconazole, give 40 mg of metronidazole/ day for three days. If you see improvement, continue for a total of 7-8 days. If you don't see improvement after three days, stop the metro treatment. Metro must be given in large amount to prevent the parasite to become resistent. So a single dose / day is neccesary, not two smaller doses.
-Don't give any other medicine during this time.
-Give garlic, as much as doesn't distress the bird. The combination between the bitterness of metronidazole and hotness of garlic may stress the bird, so better live the garlic for when you finish with the metro.There are various sorts of garlic, maybe you find one not so hot. Is useful tot taste the food and even the medicines you give to the bird, as some are bitter or have other kind of unpleasantful taste.
-Give, if possible, Echinacea (you find it at natural products shops), tea of Pau d'Arco (you can buy it at tea shops) and the other from the first website about aspergillus in my previous post
-To heal and strenghten the liver and digestive system, give B vitamins, hepatoprotective supplements (they are marketed like this, I have a veterinary one named Hepatoprotect), spirulina. Don't make excess with vitamins anyway, as you may cause hipervitaminosis. Give lots of probiotics (there is no limit for them), the one specific for pigeons ideally, if not, one from human drugstore).


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If the breathing has been happening on and off for so long as 5 months despite antibiotics, would agree that ultrasound or X-ray might clarify things...our bird had noisy breathing sometimes last year, was given antibiotics a couple of times by the local exotics vet, but the avian specialist did X-ray and ultrasound and dx atherosclerosis. Hope you can have an avian vet check out the bird. I don't have experience with aspergillosis so can't speak to that. But the bird does look seriously ill and I hope things turn around very soon!


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

no the difference of weight is not between morning evening its between morning morning. when her crop is empty. Also her crop looks more spongy to me today. cant feel seed- only water felt. though she ate seed in the morning. And i feel the spongy crop is adding further issues to her respiratory problem.
ive ordered online for a paediatric human grade nystatin but it will reach untill day after tomorrow. would you recommend i start her on flucanazole instead of waiting. what is the recommended dosage for it?
heart problems could be the issue. but would like to mention. The open mouthed breathing was not a slow progression like little opening of beak then increasing more it just started suddenly last wednesday. was better after 2 days n then worse after two days n its been on n off like that. for eg she was much better day before yesterday for the whole day, even in the night after but deteriorated again yesterday.
X ray yes but with the fluid crop n respiratory problem is it ok to take x ray. one should not lie the pigeon on the back. i can avoid that but i would need to atleast lay her on the side. anyone has had experience in this before if its ok to do so.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

naqshpa5 said:


> ive ordered online for a paediatric human grade nystatin but it will reach untill day after tomorrow. would you recommend i start her on flucanazole instead of waiting. what is the recommended dosage for it?


Nystatin is pretty much good for nothing. Fluconazole is efficient, but perhaps you should wait until the next morning, when crop empties, as a small quantity of medicine in a pool of water will mean the dug will be absorbed gradually and hit weakly, which is not good. Or is not empty in the morning? In that case, give the Fluconazole anyway. Dose: 1-2 mg. I often gave to little and was inefficient. 







> X ray yes but with the fluid crop n respiratory problem is it ok to take x ray. one should not lie the pigeon on the back. i can avoid that but i would need to atleast lay her on the side. anyone has had experience in this before if its ok to do so.


With fluid in crop, care must be taken not to press the crop and make the water come up into mouth, where will enter the trachea (through the vent in the tongue) and suffocate the bird. Also, very important, the radiography must be one capable of seeing oganic elements like seeds or an aspergilloma. You first ask by phone at x-ray center if they can do such radiography, as not all have the means.


Anyway, nothing may appear at radiography and you should continue with garlic and metronadizole.


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## naqshpa5 (Jun 20, 2011)

no the xray we use here is of human ones no special pet x rays. they do dog n cat too. persons reading r not too adept but the vet i go too may be knowing how to read x rays


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

My vet told me two days with no meds for fecal ????


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> If it was chlamydia, it responded till now to doxy. When is chlamydia, the droppings are a little greener than usual, including the urates. When a pigeon of mine has chlamydia, usually the laboured respiration passes in few days, less than a weak.
> 
> *Similarly, when you give the proper medicine for any disease, you should see results in same day (for coccidia, worms, e-coli or salmonella) or, in the case of canker, next 1-2 days. If doesn't respond, it means is something else. *
> 
> ...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Should be more like a week off the drugs for a fecal.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> That just isn't true. It can take days to see an improvement even when using the right drug. That is the thing you tend to do, is jump around and switch to different meds. All that does is to give the bacteria or whatever a better chance to build up a resistance to the drug. So please don't give that advice. It isn't true, and can only make things worse.


I exaggerated maybe when speaking about rapidity of response. The dry forms of canker will not show improvement in fewer than three days. But there are also types of diseases that respond fast with dramatical improvement to the proper medicine, like the medicines for worms, for mites, for coccidia or the injectable antibiotics for bacteria like e-coli, salmonella etc.


Coming back to the case from this thread, I found this interesting passage on Dr. Colin's website, that seems to have correspondences with the described symptoms:

_In pigeons with sour crop, at least 90% have an internal canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the glandular stomach (proventriculus). As the nodule increases in size, it squashes the windpipe making breathing difficult and blocking the crop outlet. This interferes with crop emptying, leading to bacterial infection of the crop and secondary starvation and dehydration due to the crop contents not being able to pass into the bird's system._
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/products/veterinary_medicines2.html


Combined with the description of sour smell of droppings of the pigeon (which I've read that is a symptom of canker), I think there is more evidence that canker may be the cause of problem. If metronidazole doesn't get into system because of crop not emptying properlyit can be administered by injection a perfusable form of Metro.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I exaggerated maybe when speaking about rapidity of response. The dry forms of canker will not show improvement in fewer than three days. But there are also types of diseases that respond fast with dramatical improvement to the proper medicine, like the medicines for worms, for mites, for coccidia or the injectable antibiotics for bacteria like e-coli, salmonella etc.
> 
> 
> .


Worms and mites will respond right away, but they are not diseases. Any any of the diseases can take a while to respond.
It's important not to exaggerate, as people who come on here are looking for help, and may go by your advice. If they did that, they could do more harm than good.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Worms and mites will respond right away, but they are not diseases. Any any of the diseases can take a while to respond.
> It's important not to exaggerate, as people who come on here are looking for help, and may go by your advice. If they did that, they could do more harm than good.


That's right. 

Anyway,as a general idea, aiming at eliminating complete a germ is not good, as its presence at a non-fatal level helps the bird's organism achieve immunity against it. I practice this (shortening the recommended lenght of treatments) but for someone else this may be harder to understand or apply.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> That's right.
> 
> Anyway,as a general idea, aiming at eliminating complete a germ is not good, as its presence at a non-fatal level helps the bird's organism achieve immunity against it.
> Andrei, You can't eliminate many of the things the birds carry. We all know this.
> ...


Shortening the rcommended length of treatment, doesn't help the bird at all. What it does, is to help the bacteria or protazoa to become stronger than it was, and to build up an immunity to the drug. So what happens then, is that when you need to medicate the bird later on, the drug won't work. And any other birds who have had the bacteria or whatever passed on to them, have now gotten a stronger bacteria then it was before, and the drug will not work for them either. You are just helping to build stronger bacterias and other things. It is you who are not understanding. Why do you think that so many bacterias that people get, are not knocked out by the old stand-by antibiotics anymore? Because people have abused them for too long. They take them for everything. And many stop taking them when they feel better, rather than taking the drug for the proper length of time. So the bacterias have gotten stronger and built up a resistance to the drugs. they don't work any more. They have to keep on trying to come up with newer and stronger antibiotics to try to kill the super bugs that they have created, by doing just exactly what you are doing with the birds. That causes more harm then good. Not a good practice, and dangerous for the birds.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Shortening the rcommended length of treatment, doesn't help the bird at all. What it does, is to help the bacteria or protazoa to become stronger than it was, and to build up an immunity to the drug. So what happens then, is that when you need to medicate the bird later on, the drug won't work. And any other birds who have had the bacteria or whatever passed on to them, have now gotten a stronger bacteria then it was before, and the drug will not work for them either. You are just helping to build stronger bacterias and other things. It is you who are not understanding. Why do you think that so many bacterias that people get, are not knocked out by the old stand-by antibiotics anymore? Because people have abused them for too long. They take them for everything. And many stop taking them when they feel better, rather than taking the drug for the proper length of time. So the bacterias have gotten stronger and built up a resistance to the drugs. they don't work any more. They have to keep on trying to come up with newer and stronger antibiotics to try to kill the super bugs that they have created, by doing just exactly what you are doing with the birds. That causes more harm then good. Not a good practice, and dangerous for the birds.


Jay is right. No ifs ands or butts about that one right there


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

GimpieLover said:


> Jay is right. No ifs ands or butts about that one right there


Thank you. I don't know why people don't understand this concept. They have been telling us this for ever.


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