# Is he Cheating?



## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

I have to ask because I've never seen anything like this before. A guy in our club has been winning races for the past two youngbird seasons by having between 15 and 20 birds on the drop. His birds are always in top form. Like perfect form up to this I can believe that he is playing fair but his young birds do not fly old birds at all. Not a single one of them. He has a completely different team for old birds and his results are at best good but nothing like in youngbirds. Other club members have gotten breeders from this guy and they are not good, few even breed decent birds. He sends birds to one loft races and gets very poor results. Has anyone dealt with this before? What occured in the situation you were in? I dont want to jump to the conclusion that he is cheating or using some substance that no one else knows about but I have yet to see results for anyone who is this good. We have some very good flyers in our club including a guy who has won national awards over a 40 year carreer and is like 20 miles shorter than the guy Im speaking of and he still loses by minutes. Is there some system out there that can produce these results legally?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I won't address the "cheating" question.

But I will say this. Having been involved in pigeon racing since the late 70's, in five different combines.

Someone having their birds in top form, could be because they know how, and do the work required to accomplish that.

Having 15 to 20 birds on the drop is possible. Perhaps due to location, and training practices.

Now, as to winning all races (if that is occurring). It can not be done. No one wins them all. No matter how good they are, nor how good their pigeons are.

I really don't know what illegal substance is "out there", that could accomplish what you are thinking. I guess there is something, but I don't have a clue what it could be. Perhaps a google search for "pigeon illegal substances" would show us.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Like Walt, I won't address whether or not this guy is cheating, but I'll relay a few items from our club.

Is it possible to win every race? Yes it is. At least in our club it has happened. But we are small, so it's easier to do. And the guy that was winning was doing it with huge drops. 

I think it's also possible for someone to have "figured it out" legally. If you look at my results from 4 years ago, you wouldn't see many wins. If you look at them now, you'll see that I've been winning many if not most of our club's young bird races. And I get big drops - sometimes my whole team. I've gotten better birds, better feeding program and better at training. When these things align, I think it's possible to dominate unless those same things are aligning for others in the club. 

I don't do quite as well in old birds for some reason. I haven't figured that out yet. It could be that the others are flying widowhood (they won't say) and I'm not. So the motivation is different. I also don't train as hard with OB and maybe they do. Could be also that my new birds haven't had time to have an impact yet as old birds.

If someone's birds don't do well with other handlers, then his management must be better than theirs. I wonder, if he is cheating, why wouldn't he cheat at old birds, too?


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks for the quick reply. He has not won all the races the first race he did not ship and the second he said that he could not get the birds to come in. Honestly I just wanted to see if it was possible because I have checked other clubs results and have not seen anything like it.

What really makes me think that all is not what it seems is that his old bird team is completely different than his youngbird team? Have any of you seen someone do this? Why would this be done seems like a loss of valuable experienced birds. That all did well.


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

With that many birds on the drop I bet he is flying the dark system. It is not uncommon at all for dark birds to stick together even at middle distance races. Before questioning him can you say whether he is following a young bird system and most of the rest in the club are not? He might have some very mature birds that are highly motivated and fed/trained well. That could explain a lot of things. And also explain why his YB team is very consistent but then maybe his OB systems don't work as well or he is not motivating them the same way.

Also, this could depend on how many birds is he shipping, how many total in the race? And do you split up each flyer's birds among several baskets or do they all go in the same one?

I don't fly dark, I don't have the time and job freedom to be able to be at home every day on a set schedule. So I fly a modified light system and for the first few races usually get hammered by huge drops from the guys flying dark before things even out...

My guess is he's just got a very good system for YB's and applying it well.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

lmorales4 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply. He has not won all the races the first race he did not ship and the second he said that he could not get the birds to come in. Honestly I just wanted to see if it was possible because I have checked other clubs results and have not seen anything like it.
> 
> What really makes me think that all is not what it seems is that his old bird team is completely different than his youngbird team? Have any of you seen someone do this? Why would this be done seems like a loss of valuable experienced birds. That all did well.


You are saying the birds he races in YB are not the same birds that he races as OB. The birds that won the YB races are not found on his OB team. 

One possible explanation here is the flier could burn out the birds as YB. Not speaking from experience here but the Bieche system which guys around here use, get the crazy results you are talking about. It is king of both the light and the dark system at the same time. Mr Bieche indicates not to fly the cocks to the longer races as YB they can get burned out. I also think many of the systems mess up the normal molt the birds go through so it might take a couple years for YB on a system to get back on a regular molt cycle. Some systems have the birds go through a second molt after YB's. I know local guys that have there YB team on lights and a round of late hatches (can you call March/April late hatches) not on lights, natural molt to supplement the OB team. Sent as trainers the first couple YB races.


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## pigeonflier (May 4, 2014)

When push your young birds to the max,, and have them darkened,, it is possible to get the results your speaking of. I had a pretty good guy in my corner this year teaching me the ins and outs,, and my young bird team did just as your speaking. But I did train them pretty dern severe to get them to that point. By the 3rd race,, I put 19 birds in and got 18 on the drop. Week after week I could count on getting 2/3 if not more on the drop and that was only putting 10-15 birds! It don't come easy,, but if you put the work in,, the birds will give back. Of course it all has to start with good birds also. What these birds will do as old birds after a hard season is another story though.


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Thank you Gentlemen/ Ladies? The way you guys speak of these systems sounds alot like what he has told me about. The little that hes actually let on about what he does. Any one know where to get a hold of this bieche system. Im gonna have to step my game up if I ever want to get another Diploma during the YB season. lol


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Racing pigeon guys,who also race old birds,if they are on a YB system,the birds usually do not do well as yearlings....You have to get them through a full moult late in the year...And sometimes it don`t work...I try to keep my birds as natural as I can,since I want to have a fair chance with them as yearlings....We have a guy here who`s loft position is so bad,I feel sorry for him...But he gets 10 to 15 bird drops,and can win almost every CLUB yb race....Is he on a system ?? Maybe,maybe not....My natural birds are very close to his speeds,but I haven`t really beaten him yet....My location is not good club & combine wise...But his loft position is down right terrible....But he gets his birds in,and in a bunch too.....We had a previous year,that a very experienced guy won all 8 club races,and his combine positions were pretty good also....It happens...No cheating,no drugs etc...Just good pigeons well trained,and 110% healthy...Alamo


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Am a newbie to the sport and curious to know the different training methods. Would someone have the patience and time to explain the bieche, light and dark systems?


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Ananth_Tvli said:


> Am a newbie to the sport and curious to know the different training methods. Would someone have the patience and time to explain the bieche, light and dark systems?


Very broad view: Birds grow new feathers every year. YBs do this twice that first year. The second time they grow their feathers could almost be compared to puberty in humans. Following this second molt the birds are stronger and mature. 

Naturally this molt is taking place all the time but is heaviest in the fall during YB racing here in the US. If a fancier can control this molt he can have birds in better condition during the races. 

The molt can be broken down into two main parts, a wing molt and a body molt. 

Light system: By increasing the perceived day length the birds wing molt is accelerated. You can get the birds to regrow their new flights and have a full wing with no missing flights during the YB racing as opposed to a bird that is missing flights. 

Dark system: By decreasing the day length you can slow the wing molt down but accelerate the body molt. You can get a bird that has basically gone through puberty early. Not only are they not under the stress of the body molt during racing like natural birds but they are also stronger and sexually mature. It could be compared to a 10 year old playing football against an 20 year old. 

The Bieche system is basically a blend of both of these. 

Their are several DVD's out there that talk about this, Alex Beiche sells one, I think Ganus and CBS sell one, Jim Jenner put one out. 

A possible issue, as has already been stated, is a bird under a system might have poor feather quality or be burned out during old birds as a yearling. 

If I was a beginner I would just fly them under natural light but pay really close attention to the birds, take really good notes, on each bird keep a record of hatch date, wean date, and then every three or four weeks write down where they are in the wing molt, list when the body molt was the heaviest. The following year continue to take notes on how they do as yearlings, the second year of YB's pick a system and follow it and take really good notes. Compare year to year

After a few years of this make your own video, promote it and make millions. OK maybe i am getting carried away but I hope that helps...


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## Ananth_Tvli (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks Flapdoodle, very informative. Should I go on to make a movie I'll put it here for your reviews and won't forget to mention your name in the book... lol


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

lmorales4 said:


> I have to ask because I've never seen anything like this before. A guy in our club has been winning races for the past two youngbird seasons by having between 15 and 20 birds on the drop. His birds are always in top form. Like perfect form up to this I can believe that he is playing fair but his young birds do not fly old birds at all. Not a single one of them. He has a completely different team for old birds and his results are at best good but nothing like in youngbirds. Other club members have gotten breeders from this guy and they are not good, few even breed decent birds. He sends birds to one loft races and gets very poor results. Has anyone dealt with this before? What occured in the situation you were in? I dont want to jump to the conclusion that he is cheating or using some substance that no one else knows about but I have yet to see results for anyone who is this good. We have some very good flyers in our club including a guy who has won national awards over a 40 year carreer and is like 20 miles shorter than the guy Im speaking of and he still loses by minutes. Is there some system out there that can produce these results legally?


Why don't you get in this guys head? befriend him and learn how he does it! give it a try and you may along the way learn some things he is doing to get his birds into top shape, this in turn may make your birds (perhaps a few you get from him) better than anything you have done yourself so far. 

I say a few from him, because in purchasing some of his birds it gives you the perfect time to talk to him away from everyone else and learn some of how he does it. Don't expect him to give up everything he knows all at once and be prepared to ask good questions. 

Also if given the chance check out how his lofts are set up, are they like yours? How does he train, how often what distances ect. how often does he change out his water, what kind of feed is he using and where does he get it from, vitamins (what and how often) how does he purify his water, ect.... 

In other words what is he doing that gets his birds into top shape and keeps them there? I'm willing to bet once you figure that out, you will know why he is able to keep an entire team hitting so well.


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## Realnoisy (Mar 13, 2013)

Some flyers keep the winners after YB season for breeding or selling. They don't want to take the chance of losing diploma birds. Some flyers really focus on YB's and they are very good at training/conditioning and don't care too much about racing old birds. If you're going to pay the fees for the season, may as well race OB's.

I agree with everything lawman said. Those are the guys I want to hang out with and pick their brains. We have a guy in our club that consistently won in YB's. His YB's are in top condition every year. His secret is diet and training. Took me two years to get the diet recipe out of him. The last YB season I won four 1st place diplomas. It's not cheating, it's listening!


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

I doubt he is "cheating". I am sure he has good pigeons and is flying a system. Some systems can give great yb results with the cost that they won't moult correctly as yearlings, everything has a price. Nowadays you have to fly some system to manipulate the moult at least a little to be competitive in yb. Old birds is completely different in that your manipulating the pigeons mind not his feathers. To dominate in young birds you have to have super health, an understanding wife and a flexible job schedule. To dominate old birds you have to be a pigeon man. You have to be able to read individual birds and motivate each as it works best for that bird to get the best out of them. In OB its no longer about just about health and training.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

*Right on HILL TOP !!!*.......Alamo


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

The part about good pigeons is just a given. It does seem a little odd that other guys have had no success with his birds, but their are factors like are the other flyers top yb flyers? Were the birds off his best pairs? Do they fly a system or just feed and haul them? Many people go to Europe and buy the best birds off the best flyers and come back here and have little or no success so that part is no indication of cheating either.


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## Hill Top (Dec 5, 2014)

The very impressive thing is the large winning drops on race day. Many years ago a good friend of mine who was a top flyer in our club won races with one or two birds at a time on the drop just like everybody else. Then he made the decision to get rid of his hodge podg of breeds like a lot of people have and cut down to mainly one line. At the time the Syndicate Lofts HVR were really winning. He bought I think eight yb off their best. He raised a team off these birds and the next yb season started getting 15-20 birds in the drop often taking the top 10 positions. Now I know for a fact he did not and would not cheat. He flys now in a big club in a big city and is a well known flyer nationwide. While he won in ob too, his results were not as spectacular. His work was such as he could set his own hours and he trained very very hard, his birds were also in super health. He gave me a bird or two and I did well with them but I knew the way they needed to be handled.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hill Top said:


> The very impressive thing is the large winning drops on race day. Many years ago a good friend of mine who was a top flyer in our club won races with one or two birds at a time on the drop just like everybody else. Then he made the decision to get rid of his hodge podg of breeds like a lot of people have and cut down to mainly one line. At the time the Syndicate Lofts HVR were really winning. He bought I think eight yb off their best. He raised a team off these birds and the next yb season started getting 15-20 birds in the drop often taking the top 10 positions. Now I know for a fact he did not and would not cheat. He flys now in a big club in a big city and is a well known flyer nationwide. While he won in ob too, his results were not as spectacular. His work was such as he could set his own hours and he trained very very hard, his birds were also in super health. He gave me a bird or two and I did well with them but I knew the way they needed to be handled.


Well put HIll Top;

Years ago my brother and I flew in the old Inland Empire Concourse here in Southern California, one of the members of our club openly admitted he had a hard time breeding (seemed no mater how he mated his pairs he never or very rairly got anything good out of them). But he was an awsume handler every year he would ask other members of the club to give him anything they were going to get rid of and more often than not he would beet us with our own birds. 

I came to realize while the quality of the birds was important, even the best birds in the hands of a poor handler will more oftern than not get beeten out by a good handler with average birds. But if you put excellant birds in the hands of an excellant handler watch out cause your going to get stomped.


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