# Legless



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

I have a very damaged bird, he had a leg mostly torn off leaving me to cut the thread of skin remaining....4 days after the injury bird is alive and eating and drinking. He has the leg bone sticking out(like a drumstick) He has stop'd bleeding. I have kept him warm and safe, clean and quiet. I am optomistic about its recovery. Niether wing was damaged. This bird is unflown and I know some old timers would say to cull it, but thats NOT happening. I would like to see this bird fly(even if he can't race). I was wondering if anyone had suggestions or has had a similar experience. DAMN THESE BIRDS ARE TOUGH!! 
no matter what the outcome this bird WILL stay in my loft for life
JW
answers to the questions
1-it was a dog that did the damage
2-coop has been made much safer(I take responsability...my fault)
3-bird in small cage on clean cloth, keeping temp consistant and warm


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A pigeon can live with one leg, but he needs to see a vet. He probably needs surgery to remove the rest of the leg where the bone is protruding. He also needs antibiotics and pain management.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Can you post some pictures of the injuries? That would be most helpful. Good on you for taking care of this bird .. you are a responsible bird keeper!

Terry


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for determining from the outset not to cull...a pigeon that carries on after such a brutal attack is a hero!

Keep it warm for shock and if it has lost blood replace the lost fluids with lactated ringers, given sub cutaneously or by mouth (tastes bad but they will drink it) or prepare the International Rehydration Solution by mixing 1 pint warm water with 1/2 tablespoon glucose, or honey or sugar (in order of preference) and 1/2 teaspoon of salt and dip his beak in it to encourage him to drink or gavave if you know how.

For the dog bite he will need an antibiotic, preferably Clavamox or another amoxycillin/clavunate mix. These are the dosing instructions from our drug list:

_AMOXYCILLIN AND CLAVULANIC ACID (Synulox, Clavamox)

Dose - up to 50 mgs per kilo BID if injection or up to 125mgs per kilo TID (three times daily) orally- up to 3 weeks. Dose and dosing interval determined by infection site, severity and organism involved.

Used to treat severe or deep puncture wounds, and helps greatly in preventing the spread of necrotic tissue. Is also effective against gut E.coli.
It is not recommended that this drug be given orally in the case of critically ill patients as absorption from the GI tract is unreliable, however many people do not have access or knowledge to give by injection so orally is the only option and better than nothing.

This drug has a much broader spectrum than Baytril and therefore will treat a much greater range of ailments. Can be used in conjunction with Trim Sulphas. Refrigerate oral suspension and discard after 10 days or if liquid becomes dark. Avoid concurrent use with tetracycline, erythromycin and chloramphenicol._

If you can't get Clavamox you can use amoxycillin and Baytril. The dose for amoxicillin is 4/5 of the dose for Clavamox. I use the Baytril 2.5% solution and give 0.1 ml per 100gms of pigeon, so a pigeon weighing 400 gms would get 0.4 mls...Baytril (Enrofloxacin) works best in a single daily dose.

Keep the bone moist while it is uncovered, an antibacterial cream or a hydrocolloid gel smothered over the area will help. If the bone is alive it might be possible to suture ocer the skin, if not then a vet can trim it down and do some suturing. If it needs to lose the whole leg it will learn to hop (we had one that had a leg removed, she coped well).

We have several members with a lot of relevant experience in avian wound management that will support you.

In my experience it is best to get* all the information on what can be done, what should be done and how it should be done *from experienced PT members, before taking a pigeon to the vet. Even avian vets will not usually have experience of avian casualties or severe avian wounds and their management whereas bird rescuers are dealing with horrors on a regular basis and pulling the birds through. Print out the advice and take it with you.

Please let us know how the bird is getting along. 

Good luck

CYnthia


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As it happens, there's another somewhat current thread where a bird had lost a lot of the leg as well as damaging the wingtip. That bird is healing quite well, by the way, and is learning how to hop around just fine.

Definitely yes on the antibiotics listed above, so get those started as soon as possible. If the bird gets Pasteurellosis or some other systemic bacterial infection, it'll probably start going noticeably downhill within just a very few days. That's very bad and hard to stop once it really gets going.

If you end up going to a vet for antibiotics, then, obviously, you'll get something done for the rest of it. If you keep any, be sure and let us know exactly what they are and the formulations.

Pidgey


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would say with a bone exposed he needs the vet, sooner than later.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> That bird is healing quite well, by the way, and is learning how to hop around just fine.


That is a welcome update, Pidgey. Thank you!!


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

The bird continues to eat and drink water(I will add honey tonight). Last night I caught him grooming and preening. The picture is rather graphic and I'd rather not post online(I would be happy to send in a text). The picture was taken soon after the injury. I meant to take a new pic this morning, but got caught up petting the bird. I will keep the bone moist in the meantime. I should be able to get ahold of the drugs. I will keep everyone posted

Jason


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Thank you Pidgey for the update on the other bird. Glad to hear the bird is doing well.


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

my sister is sending down some clavomaox and ringers(she's a vet tech in N Cal), she commented on how great it is that you have all so willingly helped out with the bird. I'll take some pics daily so its progress can be charted, I'll get it weighed for correct dosage of meds...I do have a probiotic i won in a raffle, should I use it? Now with regards to the bone sticking out...are there nerves in the bone? Is the bone hollow or have marrow like us? I would much rather leave him a "peg" than remove completely unless it leaves the bird succeptable to infection.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

atvracinjason said:


> *I have a very damaged bird*, he had a leg mostly torn off leaving me to cut the thread of skin remaining....4 days after the injury bird is alive and eating and drinking.* He has the leg bone sticking out(like a drumstick)*
> 
> He has stop'd bleeding. I have kept him warm and safe, clean and quiet. I am optomistic about its recovery. Niether wing was damaged. This bird is unflown and I know some old timers would say to cull it, but thats NOT happening. I would like to see this bird fly(even if he can't race). I was wondering if anyone had suggestions or has had a similar experience. DAMN THESE BIRDS ARE TOUGH!!
> no matter what the outcome this bird WILL stay in my loft for life
> ...


A bird with a compound injury (bone protruding from the skin) should be seen by a vet. 
It doesn't have to be a 'certified' avian vet specifically, but one with avian experience. Perhaps your sister knows of one in your area.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Feefo said:


> In my experience it is best to get* all the information on what can be done, what should be done and how it should be done *from experienced PT members, before taking a pigeon to the vet. Even avian vets will not usually have experience of avian casualties or severe avian wounds and their management whereas bird rescuers are dealing with horrors on a regular basis and pulling the birds through. Print out the advice and take it with you.


I don't wanna send this thread off into digression-land again, since all & all everyone has given fairly sound advice...but with due respect to you, Cynthia...as a member I really really look up to....

...the semantics of your post can be misinterpreted by a newcomer...

An avian vet is the individual best-suited to give advice and treatment on a patient...not a bunch of forum members who have yet to even see a photo of the injury. 

In the situation of a serious injury, IMHO it would not be very wise to wait and collect information from a good group of pigeon-lovers until you feel you have enough suggestions...THEN go to see a vet.

Atvra...you have done a phenomenal job thus far. Time to get your friend to a professional ASAP, just to make sure all bases are covered.....


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

I've put the pictures inside an album on facebook, 
Jason Wirth


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I don't have a facebook account, can you email the pictures to me at:

[email protected]

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, what a mess...

He won't bleed to death at this point and all that will eventually seal off. Obviously, it'd be best to keep it clean. I can't make out everything very well given the blurry-ness.

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I don't wanna send this thread off into digression-land again


You are right, this is neither the time nor the place. Let's just concentrate on the badly wounded pigeon on this thread. Please feel free to e-mail me if you need to discuss my semantics.

atvracinjason, one of the pigeons at the sanctuary was partially eaten by a hawk. Diane who runs the sanctuary smothered an anti germicdal cream called F10 over it and it made a miraculous recovery, she was able to release it. I don't know whether you can get that product in the US, but she highly recommends it.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Feefo said:


> *You are right, this is neither the time nor the place. *Let's just concentrate on the badly wounded pigeon on this thread. Please feel free to e-mail me if you need to discuss my semantics.
> 
> 
> I disagree. I think this is the time for someone to bring up the fact that when an injury like this occurs, the bird should be getting medical attention from a qualified vet, not the advice from rehabbers and others who advise people to come here first.* It seems that a responsible person would advise the person to get the injured bird to a vet.* This rather important suggestion seems to be lost with your advice. Helping is one thing. *Advising against getting the bird to a vet, or waiting until they check here first is just bad advice.*


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Drop it right now please.

You've made a point and that's that. Jaye said he "don't wanna send this thread off into digression-land again" . So lets not have anyone else doing so.

There's been enough arguing on threads recently - this is going to stop right here.

There is a bird patient here and that is what is important.

You guys have given *your* advice, so no more to be said.

John


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

With all due respect to you and other members, John. There are the rules of conduct for this forum. I didn't write them but I have read them. I will hi-light the point that is pertinent in this instance.
I can't see that any comment made has been anything less than respectful. .
Given the injury took place 6 days ago now, it seems that many of us feel it certainly time for a professional assessment by vet that can actually look at the bird in real life. Our input is valid too and deserving of respect.

Participation in the Pigeon-Talk forums implies agreement with the following:

1. Pigeon Talk forums offer support, empowerment, education and entertainment to pigeon enthusiasts in every aspect of this fancy. Since each user is responsible for their own posts, please use discretion when weighing the value of information found in these forums.

2. This is a pigeon advocate website. Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any cruel treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. While we encourage an exchange of opinions in these forums, please note that there are specific 'Off Limit' topics that are PROHIBITED and any such posts will be be immediately removed without discussion. Off Limit topics include: 
•	Lethal means of control - Our discussions encourage 'humane habitat modifications'. We reject all discussions about 'lethal' means of control.
•	Lethal culling. We advocate only 'responsible culling' of unwanted pigeons or doves. 'Responsible culling' is defined as: Taking the responsibility for finding proper homes for your unwanted pigeons. Please do not try to give us your 'justifications' for 'lethal culling', we have heard it all. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself.Please just go away.
•	*Surgical Procedures. Invasive procedures on any animal should ONLY be performed by a licensed/qualified veterinary doctor. If you have an emergency situation please contact a professional for advice and treatment. There are many resources on Pigeon-Life that can help you locate professional care. Just because you may find a procedure posted on the WEB that doesn't mean it is valid or humane*
•	Cruelty or torture of any animals. 
3. We require civil and ethical conduct on all forums. Personal attacks on other members, or Pigeon-Life.net itself, will not be tolerated. If asked, you will yield to the requests of the forum moderators and administrators.

Thank you for your cooperation,
Carl Gulledge (bigbird)
__________________
A Pigeon's Dream
Forum Rules of Conduct


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I agree, the input that has been given regarding taking this bird to a vet is absolutely in order and valid. 

Nobody has suggested anyone other than a vet should perform any surgical procedure on this bird. 

Nobody has suggested the bird should not be taken to a vet.

Nobody has advised on what any procedure should consist of.

You have all made the points you wanted to make. Differences of opinion have been stated in an open and forthright manner. There's nothing more to add, aside from maybe helping the poster to find a good vet.

I respectfully request members to now focus only on what is happening with the patient. Any further diversion into who said what and whether they should have or shouldn't have is not helpful. 

(This request is covered in point three of the rules of conduct)

John


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

either the bone is sticking out or it is not, I have not seen any pics on this thread, it would be only interesting to see them if possible, not to give medical advice,( at least from me as Im not a pro.) And can the care giver take this bird to a vet? if not then there is no more reason to mention it as it can not happen anyway... common sense tells me, bone sticking out = proffessional medical care.. The at home care is important too, but what about that bone?


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

Thank you ALL for your help, the fact that there are few differing view points hasn't surprised me a bit....thats whats so great about this forum, from around the world I can hear a bunch of voices and taking each with a grain of salt make my best(now better educated) decisions. If we were re-programing a computer and the viewpoints were so different I'd be worried. Thanks for all of your opinions, thoughts and obvious concern for the bird, which may be seen as devisive on a quick read-through, but if the posters are near as tough as their birds I'm sure it hasn't ruffled to many feathers. Thanks again too anyone who offered thier time.

JW


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

atvracinjason said:


> Thank you ALL for your help, the fact that there are few differing view points hasn't surprised me a bit....thats whats so great about this forum, from around the world I can hear a bunch of voices and taking each with a grain of salt make my best(now better educated) decisions. If we were re-programing a computer and the viewpoints were so different I'd be worried. Thanks for all of your opinions, thoughts and obvious concern for the bird, which may be seen as devisive on a quick read-through, but if the posters are near as tough as their birds I'm sure it hasn't ruffled to many feathers. Thanks again too anyone who offered thier time.
> 
> JW


let us know what the vet says...


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Jason, how is the pigeon getting along?


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

The bird seems to be doing better. He is currently recieving clavomax(on a Vets instructions), daily. I also have him on a pain med(can't recall the name). He continues to eat and drink, his poops look good. The wounded areas are starting to heal up. Yesterday I took him outside and put him next to my loft...he loved the hot sun and the company. I changed the cage I have him in so he can now outstretch his wings, that also seems to make it a happier camper.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks...I am so glad that he is healing well. When you said he was preening that was a very good sign. They are such resilient birds when injured, I just wish they could fight illness off as vigorously!

Did the vet going to do anything about the protruding bone?


----------



## bundyray (Nov 7, 2009)

Several years ago had similar incident bird was renamed hoppy and he lived and bred quiet happilly for quiet some time


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

Update time...has been 13 days since the incident, the bird continues to tough it out, he's loving the afternoon sun and getting better about taking his medicine two times daily...the afffected area seems to have started to mend...the leg bone may very well still need to be removed(thats later). I have attatched a few pics so everyone knows what and who we are dealing with

This is "sex" already had the name and I think it fits better now...like a fat guy named Tiny









DAY 1









DAY 5 photo taken before I cleaned him up

















I'll update with some new photos when I can...wish my bird luck


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ah, bless!!!! I was looking back at some old posts, one of our own rescues lost a foot and that left a bone protruding, the vet told us that sometimes the bone necrotises and crumbles and that in those cases surgery is not required. I have always been frightened of surgery as a pigeon that I took in for string removal died under the anaesthetic (they said it could have been anything that killed it: blood loss, shock, toxemia).


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have had dozens pigeons that have had surgery and none of them have died as a result. I have had a couple of rabbits dye under anesthesia though.


----------



## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Wow. That' s quite an injury. You are doing a fantastic job!


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

From what I understand, the anesthesia used on birds does not last as long as it does on other animals such as cats and dogs and that they have a much higher loss rate. So before any surg is done I will make sure it needs it and is stabil and strong


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

atvracinjason said:


> From what I understand, the anesthesia used on birds does not last as long as it does on other animals such as cats and dogs and that they have a much higher loss rate. So before any surg is done I will make sure it needs it and is stabil and strong




A few months ago I observed a wing amputation. The vet had the bird awake almost immediately after.


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

As the birds health continues to increase and so does its attitude. I let him fly in the aviary yesterday to observe the bird...flew just fine, will need to work on the landings a bit...he stands on the leg bone like a pirate on a peg leg. And HERE is the question...I saved this bird with all intentions of letting it loft fly, but I'm worried by the time he is completely healed he will be too old and bail out(a death sentance for sure). I didn't save him to keep him a prisoner....what are evryones thoughts on when I should roll the dice. I am NOT a gambler and want to make the best decision for the bird.


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

*Update*

The legless bird has continued to astonish me
-the bone is gone and the wound has healed, just about done with its molt and he is looking great. He is fiesty and prefers to eat with the other birds even when given an option...he will put his wing out on his legless side and rest against other birds at the feeder
I gave him an opportunity to loft fly and he looked at me like I was nuts and went back in the door, luckily the aviary should be enough room to stretch his wings. I wanted to say thank you again to all that helped me keep this bird alive
Jason


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jason,


Nice to read this up-date..!


Good going!


I have a few one-Legged-Pigeons here myself...and they are plump, strong and get on beautifully with all the two-Legged ones.


They can really build up the remaining Leg too far as muscle and strength.



Somehow I missed this Thread when it was going.


Glad it all worked out so well.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad to hear he is doing well. Are his landings getting any better?


----------



## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

Legless update:
Legless has become quite the bird, I now believe he is a she...as she has taken a mate and a nest box(the top box in the loft), she isn't the best with nest building and I don't intend on letting her raise babies. Her flying is awesome...she can hoover around without problems and is good at landing now...loves to bath and sit in the sun.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

They are amazing birds.
Glad she is doing so well. Thanks for the update.

Reti


----------

