# Caught in a love triangle



## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

About a month and a half ago I got a female ringneck to hopefully be a mate for my male. They were both lone birds, I got them checked out by my vet and they seemed eager to meet up once they became neighbours. Sounds good, right?

Well apparently not.
El, the female, seems to only find humans to be suitable mates, and now tries to claim me as her territory as soon as I let her out.
Meanwhile Curie, my male of 3 years has taken notice and now seems me to want to be his mate as well. He sometimes tries to preen El, but she almost always quivers in fear at his advances and then tries to attack him.
I waited until she was done with her eggs to see if they would get along then, but she still seems thoroughly attached to me and now I am caught in a weird bird drama.

Does anyone have ideas for how I could get these birds to stop viewing me as their mate and start accepting each other? Do I just need to wait? Or should I return El to her previous owner?

I am at an absolute loss as these birds fight to place their personal flag on the top of my head even as I am writing this.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you interact with them less, and let them interact more, without you around, it would probably help them to become more bonded. It may work, or may not.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I have been trying to interact with them less but I'm not sure how to remove myself when I have to supervise their outings to keep them from fighting... But I'll see if continuing to avoid interaction makes them less interested in me. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

With Fiona and Blue, our two pigeons, Fiona preferred me to Blue and treated me like her mate until I refused to get her out for a while. I had to put their cages side for several days, then allow supervised visits so they would not fight. Finally she decided to throw me over for him and they are in love. When she lays eggs, which I swap for fakes, she bites me. Sigh. Better to have loved and lost I guess. It helped that I gave her some straw and Blue helped give her pieces to build a nest.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Hmm.. how long did you keep her cooped up? I worry because the temporary cage I've got El in is rather small. :S


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

banndsand said:


> I have been trying to interact with them less but I'm not sure how to remove myself when I have to supervise their outings to keep them from fighting... But I'll see if continuing to avoid interaction makes them less interested in me. Thanks for the suggestions.


If let out in a room together, I doubt that anyone will really get hurt. They have room to move away from the other bird. You probably don't have to be right there when they are out. Just check in every now and then.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I have a similar problem with two of my ferals - female seems to have paired with my son, preens his head, puts on her best show of fluffed up feathers and is glued to him when he enters the room and my male (I discovered two nights ago) although attacks me has actually tried to be amorous with my hands, twice now. I don't think the girl would ever pair with him, he's far too rough with her and I don't want a boyfriend right now, lol so I'm pretty stuffed on what to do other than try to pair them both with different birds. 
I feel your pain but have no advice because I can't even work out what to do myself.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Wow she's already sitting on her nest again getting it ready for more eggs. Is there any chance she'd accept a new mate at this part of her cycle or do I have to wait another three weeks? :S


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you put their cages beside each other, if they don't show interest in each other, then maybe they just don't like each other. Are you sure the new one is a female? Did she have a mate before you got her? If so, and they were separated, that could be part of the problem. Did the other owner have other birds, or just this one?
Also, vet checking them or not, the new one should be quarantined from the other one for a month before putting them together.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm not sure if you are talking to me or to FredaH, but if it's me then here's my reply:

Curie seems interested in her (he frequently tries to preen her, he coos to her), but El seems to think that only humans make good mates. Her previous owner told me she's always been a lone bird and that her original owner let her live in his whole house and petted her a lot, so I think she got that "humans = mates" idea there.

She is definitely female (she's already laid me a clutch of eggs).

I'm nearing two months of having her and I kept them separate until my vet told me they could be together, which she said, given their good health, was around 15 days. I had already met El before getting her and she looked very healthy then, so I thought the full month might not be necessary. :S They are both still behaving and pooping as usual.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would just give them more time. Also when you give them supervised visits would put a little pile of straw or whatever and see if one grabs it and delivers it to the other bird. Both our male female pair and two girl pair got friendlier when one bird brought a few pieces of nesting stuff to where the other bird was sitting on eggs. Are you still holding the human obsessed bird? Would be careful not to do that while you are trying to pair them up...especially do not pet her back.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Okay, so given more information, that does help. If she was always with the one person, and layed eggs for him, then she felt bonded to him. A female can be difficult to get her to go from human to bird if they have been bonded to a human for a long time. She may not even know she is a bird. If after a months time or so, and she still isn't interested, then probably not gonna happen. I have known people who couldn't get a bird like that to pair with a male bird. That does happen. I would give them a bit more time, and if she still doesn't want to be with him, then you may need to try with another female.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I will try laying out nesting material when I let them out. She already has a nest in her cage, should I leave it be? If they get together, I'd prefer they be in his cage because it is quite a bit larger.

I am trying to touch her as little as possible. I don't need her to be more confused! I only pick her up from time to time by presenting my hand under her chest. I'm careful not to touch her back.

I'll give them more time. Hopefully she'll understand that she is a bird soon. Otherwise I have an agreement with her previous owner for her to return. I know that if she's really a humans-only bird, she will have a good time with them.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would put them supervised together in the cage with nesting material and eggs. Would swap out the eggs for fake eggs. Fiona and Blue chased each other and squabbled a few times but I just watched carefully and separated them with my hand. After a few short visits, they calmed down and started making a nest together, bobbed heads, and groomed each other. Fiona was so human oriented, bonded to me, that she acted like I was her mate and laid eggs for me. She treated me like her mate for about a year and a half before we got other birds including Blue. Now Blue and Fiona are totally bonded and Fiona bites and wing slaps me sometimes. Hope your birds get to be friends.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Interesting. I would say I'll try that soon, but... She already laid an egg! o_o I didn't realize she could pop out more so quickly after giving up on her last ones.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If they have been unsupervised together would swap the eggs for fakes unless you want more pigeons. Don't remove any eggs she lays unless you replace them with fakes though as she will just keep laying more which will deplete her calcium. Fiona used to lay more constantly every few weeks when she was bonded to me. If you don't swap them and your birds are male and female you can end up with oops babies. I thought Fiona and Blue were both girls and didn't know Blue was a male until they hatched. Just a few unsupervised minutes was all it took.  are you giving her something like Calciboost with calcium and D3?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If they aren't getting along now, then putting her in his cage is not going to help. She needs to want to go in with him. Forcing it is not the way. Either they will pair or they won't. They do have likes and dislikes, and she does have a right to that. I wouldn't put her in his cage, I would at least give her that choice.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm actually about to go get some Calciboost on Wednesday (bird products are awkward to get where I am). For now she's on vitamin-enriched pellet and seed mix with some grit in a dish on the side. Aside from an egg she laid and then squished shortly after I got her (previous owner didn't give her grit so I think that's why), her eggs have been normal so far.

Last time I left her eggs in (apart from that squished one, which was a few days prior) because she hadn't been that close to Curie yet. She sat on them for about three weeks and then I took them out once she stopped incubating. Do they lay roughly every 4 weeks or is she just fast? Haha.

I'll be swapping these ones out since they've spent some time together. Though the most time they've spent unsupervised is maybe like 30 seconds, on separate perches. Better safe than sorry, eh?

Alright. I figure the cage is big enough that even if it were closed she would be able to get away from him, but if it is being forceful then perhaps not so great. It doesn't seem like he would be too territorial, though, since he has shown interest in being with her (he even danced around on the landing pad of her cage once, like a proper date waiting for his girl to come out , though I'll add she wasn't too impressed to be danced at while she was still egg-sitting).
I wonder if showing her that there is a nice big nesting area in his cage while he is out might give her some ideas? What do you think?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Even if he is interested in her, he can still become very territorial of his cage. Not a great idea to put her into his space. Even in a loft, a male can be after a particular female, but then when she goes into his box, he gets very aggravated and throws her out. I have seen that lots of times. It's like he wants her, but then his territorial nature gets in the way. After a while, he does, of course allow her into his box. But silly as it sounds, it can take a little while. A cage, no matter how large doesn't give her room to get away from him if he is going after her. Taking your time and using patience works better with birds than trying to force it.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Alright. Thanks Jay3. Still no luck since last update, but I've been keeping them separate for a little while.

I had a weird incident today, though. Im not sure if I should make a new thread for this or post it here... I got home this evening and El's eggs had blood on them!

I first inspected her. I could find no problems with her face, wings, feet or vent (I'm not experienced at observing a vent, though) and the only blood I could find on her was a tiny speck on one of the shorter tail feathers. All of the days poop looked normal, including droppings she has made since I discovered this. She was acting as usual, and she ate normally.

On closer inspection, one of the eggs is slightly chipped (she refuses to leave any nesting material in her nest lately, so I'm sure it must have bumped the metal bowl she's using to nest). I'm including a picture of the eggs. The top one is the one with the chip (you can see it a little) and has only that one splotch of blood on it. The other has blood mainly on the side that's showing.

Given her seeming totally normal, what in the world could this blood be? They weren't bloody before. Should I take her to the vet for testing? Is there an area you think I should check to be totally sure?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Have never had that happen, with the blood. Hopefully someone will know what is going on. Very weird.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did she have a broken blood feather somewhere? They can lose a lot of blood when that happens. Did she by any chance injure one of her feet? Any cuts or broken feathers?


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I checked her wings and everything was clean and didn't seem damaged. I've never seen broken blood feathers anywhere else. Is there somewhere I should check?

Her feet are in perfect condition as far as I can tell.

There weren't any broken feathers anywhere in her cage. A couple normal-looking large shed feathers, but that's it. Not even a drop of blood anywhere besides the eggs.

Perhaps I should try to see the skin near that one feather that had specks of blood on it...


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Looks like it was probably a broken blood feather. I finally found it.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad to hear you found the trouble.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If your bird breaks a blood feather, it can be pulled out with tweezers, in the same direction that the feather is growing. Then just apply a bit of pressure to the bleed. Sometimes they will hit something and open up again if not pulled. It can cause a lot a blood.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I kept them cooped up in their cages for almost two weeks. I have been spending very little time in the room with them to try and get them to be less attached to me.

I think it is working, because El is now trying to mate with, and build a nest out of, a pair of hanging bells on a chain next to her highest perch. She even holds her poop in when she's with the toy. Curie acts more or less the same. He sits in his nest box and coos for someone to join him.

I thought it might be a good time for them to come out, with neither of them seeming very attached in the interactions we've had. Do you guys think now is a good time, or perhaps should I make them wait longer? I feel bad keeping them stuck in their cages like this.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would let them out, but not put her in his cage, or they may fight.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

It's too bad you guys can't see what's going on. I feel like you'd have a much better impression of what's going on than I do, haha.

So far they have fought a little, tried to preen each other a little, and he has attempted two mounts, though she didn't seem pleased about it and flew elsewhere. She tried to hang out on my head twice. A third time she wanted to fly to my head but decided against it mid-flight.
They are being a lot more calm towards me than before, as I am able to type up this post without either of them flying onto my head.

I'll let you guys know if anything significant happens, but right now they both seem like they are just gonna preen/nap on separate perches for a while.

EDIT: They stayed on their separate perches until I put them back in their cages for the night. Well, it could've gone worse. I'll try again this weekend I suppose.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It sounds pretty normal. Give them time and see what happens. Let them go slow.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Thank you, Jay3, that's comforting to hear.  I am really hoping they can make it work. I'd like for it to be sooner rather than later (I need to move their cages away from the furnaces once it starts getting cold, and there won't be much room for the second cage anymore), but I'll try to accommodate their speed (or lack thereof) as much as I possibly can.

As a random side-note, they are both eating right now. It always makes me happy to see them eating more-or-less together.  A nice flock behavior.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If they are going to pair up it shouldn't take all that long. Are the cages there and open when they are out together?


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes, I leave their cages open. I don't actually take them out of their cages, I just open the doors and set up the papers and such, then they come out on their own.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well hopefully it won't take long. Let us know.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

A little (oops I guess it's not so little) update:
Progress has been slow as some life things have come up which means less "bird dates", as I call them. But they are now at the point where they can be in the same cage for a while without getting upset with each other. I'm not sure how long exactly as I usually separate them before this can happen to avoid any unpleasant association.
El still seems uninterested in mating, but she doesn't seem to be intimidated by him most of the time. Curie meanwhile flicks his wings in his nest anytime she comes in for a visit. If they can stay in the same cage long enough to live together then this may work.

I took away El's nest to discourage her habits of laying eggs for every human or inanimate object in the vicinity, and to get her to take more interest in Curie's nest. I'm not sure if taking Curie's away instead would have been better or not. El ended up getting attached to a bell toy and laid some eggs for it so I gave her her nest back to avoid damage to the eggs. Before she laid them, I noticed her attachment to the bells and put them above Curie's nest to try and get her to take interest in it (and him, since he was happy to hop in there and greet for her) and to hopefully get her to make the appropriate associations.

I've decided that if they can't live together by the end of spring, I will give her back to her previous owner. I figure spring is usually the big mating season so that will be the last attempt. I will try to get another bird for him if that happens, as I'm sure he's happier to have company. El seems like she'd be happy so long as humans are around, and if that's what she really needs then I'd rather give her to someone who could meet her needs.

In other news, Curie and I have learned a lot from having El with us. Curie learned to play with more toys (though the noise they make frightens him sometimes) and to eat millet like he's got a vacuum for a stomach. I learned that Curie has never had a "big molt" as is customary in the fall. When El had hers I saw what it was like and I can say for certain that he has never had one. This is perhaps part of why he has such lasting feather problems, or perhaps they have the same root cause. El has not developed any of the same problems so their environment doesn't seem to be the main cause, and given their close proximity it seems like he doesn't have any sort of transmissible infection. Perhaps he has dry skin, a bad habit, or a particular sensitivity to something.

Anyway, my apologies for the long post. This is almost turning into some kind of blog, haha. Thank you as always for helping me.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If she isn't interested in him, then she isn't. Just because she likes the bells, doesn't mean that she is laying eggs for the toy. If she isn't interested in him, than maybe she is viewing you as her mate. I think you are trying too hard to get them together.
Moving one bird into anothers territory will often cause problems. They should want to be together before going into one cage.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't think she sees me as her mate anymore. She didn't lay any eggs for a few months until I put that bell toy in there and she attempted to mate with it daily. Now she's laid eggs and she occasionally pecks at the toy as if to say "go sit on the nest!" Meanwhile she has very little interest in interacting with me when I let her out or interact with her.

I'm certainly trying hard. Ringneck doves are far and few between around here so I don't really have any other options at the moment. I can't keep two separate birds like this forever and I can't afford to be paying for checkups for an endless string of new birds.

It seems like she doesn't realize that she could mate with Curie and I'm trying to give her opportunities to see that. I don't force her in, the cage is always open and I remove her before either of them gives signs of irritation. I don't put her in now that she's got eggs because I know she won't be interested while nest-sitting. Their cages have been side by side without issue for so long now that it seemed like the only thing left to try. I'd love to have a bird happily jump into a relationship with Curie but this is all I can do right now. :/

Am I just not seeing something that's glaringly wrong with this? I feel like I'm going about it safely and if it doesn't work then it doesn't work and she'll go live somewhere else. Spring is short here so there's not much longer to wait.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't remember. Did she grow up as an only dove with humans?
How old is she?


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes, as far as her previous owner was able to tell me, she was raised as a lone dove with humans and should be around 2 years old now.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sometimes, when a pigeon or dove is raised with only humans around, they are not even aware that they are a pigeon or dove. They have only seen humans, and have grown up in a human world. Sometimes those birds, it seems particularly hens, will only bond to people. I think a male bird seems foreign to them. I have seen it happen a few times with pigeons. If they didn't grow up with birds, and people hand fed it, how is it supposed to know what it is?


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes, that makes sense. Is it not worth waiting to see if spring makes her more receptive? Or do doves not really care about seasons?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You could wait and see what happens. That gives her more time to get used to them. It would be nice if you don't have to end up getting rid of her. Who knows............maybe it will work. Give them more time and let us know how they do. Just be patient, because she may not even know that she is a dove. Maybe she'll come around.


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## banndsand (Dec 5, 2013)

If I had more room and money to get her a larger cage of her own I'd love to keep her permanently and have her be a people-bird and neighbor to Curie and his eventual mate. I'd love to have a close bond with a bird like that without the worry that she'd be happier with another bird, haha. But I know that as my life is now she'd be better off with another human who can spend more one-on-one time with her. Hopefully she starts to understand soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Give it time and see what happens. Let us know.


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