# wildlife rehab gets write up on their cruelness to pigeons



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

Hi everyone,

I thought I would let you all know what happened regarding the wildlife rehab in Southbay, Calif. that was taking in injured pigeons, etc. and would then use them to feed their raptors , and then when the raptors are well they release them into our area , which as you all know one killed one of our brown pigeons at the school where I work in front of the kids. After talking with a reporter / writer and rescuer of pigeons, he informed me of this cruelty taking place. I continued to communicate with him regarding pigeons and the wildlife center. He emailed me and asked what I thought of him writing an article on what happened at your school and the hawks attacking everything around here. I told him to go for it.!!, Well a week later I read the story Head line read " Rehab center here in south bay releases killing machines on our pets." it when on to say that a licensed rehabilitation center here in the southbay has been taking in injured pigeons and not informing the people that bring them that they would be used for bait / food , is the same people that are letting the rehabilitated raptors out to munch on our pets.. They are now being investigated . G. Enright Jr. is the writer who is currently ( for two years) working on a pigeon rescue book and asked me if he could come meet my bird baby and take pics for his book. Any ways I will let you all know what happens to the center when I get the details... Take Care 

Andi


----------



## JigoSan (Mar 28, 2003)

I would like to comment a bit on this story. I work at a wild bird rehabilitation center in New Jersey that pays particular care to raptors, but also takes in about everything else. All our raptors are fed from euthanized animals we aquire from certain laboratories including dead mice, rats, rabbits, guinea pigs, quail, and different types of fish. Before a bird is released we put them through a training process called hacking to make sure they can still hunt for food by putting several live mice in a hacking box full of leaves and observing how well they capture them. I am aware of other hospitals and rehabilitation centers that "hack" their bird-cathching raptors by using live pigeons for prey to see how well they can hunt, this is a necesary technique to determine whether or not the bird will be able to survive in the wild. While I personally do not approve of using pigeons, I understand the necesity of them doing so. While I cannot justify it, I also cannot condem it, being that these pigeons are raised in laboratories specifically designed for food, as are squab. I can't however understand how you think that releasing raptors is a bad thing. Are you talking about brids released in your area that are not indegenious species or are they habitual residents, because if they are then I can find no problem with letting them go and eating pigeons in thw wild. This is just a natural life process and while it is unfortunate that pigeons will be killed, we cannot stop it, the bigger birds need to eat too. Please respond and tell me how you feel about my comments.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good evening Andi,
I do remember your previous post regarding this situation.
So glad something was done about it. 
Your update is greatly appreciated. Yes, please do keep us informed of any further events. Please, also keep us posted on your little pij & the book. Sounds like fun. 
Cindy


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hello JigoSan,
I can't agree with you. 
I realize every species has a right to live. The injured have a right to be card for. And yes, in the wild, raptors do unfortunately capture a pigeon. 
However, to cage one (or any animal)& allow a raptor to intentionally destroy it, in my opinion, is unacceptable. I'm sorry, but there must be other ways of 'tesing' the raptor.


----------



## JigoSan (Mar 28, 2003)

Sigh,
It is hard for me to say this without sounding like a total insensitive jerk. Believe me I wish we could feed the birds we keep without hurting other animals in order to do it. The truth of the matter is that wild animals eat other wild animals for protein and other essential nutrients that are not a readily available in other forms like plants, although some animals do consist on that kind of diet. Within the animals that do consume meat, there exists a heirarchy among them called the food chain where the animal on the bottom is eaten by the animal above it, and that animal is eaten by the animal above it, and that animal above it, until their is an animal on top that is not preyed upon by any other animal. Raptors are on the top of the food chain for the most part unless you consider humans that hunt raptors for food, which is uncommon and not really a natural part of the food chain. Humans are also on the top of the food chain, this is not unnatural, it is a vital part of the natural world, without animals eating other animals than the entire balance of nature would be thrown off because one species would take over and consume all resources so that the other species would all die off. This is the best way I can justify man eating animals, and, more to the point, raising animals for food. Since people raise animals to eat themselves, then why shouldn't they raise animals to feed for the benefit of other animals? Because humans are currently on the utmost top of the food chain, we have the "natural right" to eat whatever we want, and to feed whatever we want to whoever we wish.
Now understand that I know that also as humans, being (arguably) the most intelligent species on the planet, we now know that all animals have the capability for independent thought, to feel pain, love, sadness, joy, all emotions there are depending on the spohistication of the species. Because of this reason, we have a moral obligation to do whatever we can to spare the lives of as many animals we can, they have a right to live as much as any of us and even though we still eat other animals (and feed other animals to other animals,) that doesn't mean we should do that to excess when it isn't necesary. If there was another way to feed carnivors who naturally eat meat in the wild, that would be good for whatever animal was being eaten, but still it would throw off the balance of nature, each species keeps each other in check. It would be no different if we took one of our hawks into the city and let them kill a wild pigeon, there is still an animal being killed so that another animal may live in its place. I feel sorry for all the lab animals we raise to experiment on and feed to other animals, their lives are miserable, and I cetainly think that if another method to feed things and experiment on things comes up we should utalize it, but for now this is the only way we have. While I cannot think of another way to hack our raptors off the top of my head, I will give the matter some consideration. Anything that saves the lives of animals is good, although they are just going right back into the wild to eat other animals where no one can stop them. 
There is really no other way for me to explain it, humans are on the top of the food chain and we can eat and feed whatever we want. Of course we should try to find other ways to do it, but for now this is all we have. I hope I didn't sound like a raving lunatic, it is hard to justify the death of another living being and morally can't really be justified at all, but the wild world doesn't always abide by moral principles, in fact it rarely does except for humans, and even we can't be perfect. After writing all that, I would be very interested to read your response.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Andi,

What paper was the article in and what was the date? Is it on the web anywhere so we can read it?

Terry Whatley


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jigo San,

I think one of the issues with this particular rehab center and the feeding of live pigeons to the raptors lies in the fact that the center was "deceiving" the public. People bringing in injured pigeons were expecting them to be rehabbed and released .. not used for training and/or food for the raptors.

I believe we all understand that there are predator and prey species and for a predator species to be successfully rehabbed and released, it must be able to catch it's intended prey. 

There was another Southern California rehab center that for a time would toss live pigeons into the raccoon cages. Apparently there are at least a couple of respected studies that support this practice as an acceptable one. At least in this case the birds were being purchased from a bird farm for the specific purpose of feeding them to the raccoons ... private citizens were not entrusting rescued pigeons to the center only to have the birds fed to the *****. Eventually, there was such an uproar from the volunteers at this center that the feeding of pigeons to the raccoons was stopped.

These issues are very difficult and being that this is a discussion board for those who love pigeons, it is extremely upsetting to many of us to think that our beloved pijjies are being used in such a way.

I thought your post was to the point and well reasoned, but I suspect you will be taking some major "hits" regarding it.

Terry Whatley


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I do appreciate your explanation & thank you for it. 
It appears to be a 'no win' situation & truly breaks my heart to think of a pigeon caged with a 'raptor' knowing full well what the outcome is going to be. 
For a species that stays to themselves, doesn't hunt down another species to survive, the feral pigeon sure has a tough go of it.
Actually, I like the idea of eating cracked corn along side the pigeons and grazing with the cows. 
Thank you again for your input. 
Cindy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Andi,

You did well to see this through. In my early days I trustingly handed over pigeons to the Wild Life Hospital and it would have broken my heart to fid that they had been fed to the raptors rather than treated and rehabilitated. Such betrayal of trust is unforgivable.

Cynthia

------------------
_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yeah, raptors have to be able to survive in nature and be able to eat, duh! But you don't put a pigeon in a cage with it either, that is not natural!!!! In nature, the pigeon has the ability to fly away and protect itself, and they can get away. So how are raptors learning to get its meal "in nature", when it is GIVEN TO HIM on a silver plater in the rehab facility?????? Doesn't make sense. It is strictly unnatural and cruel to the pigeon!


----------



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

I don't have anything against raptor's and yes they must eat... and nature is nature survial of the fittest as they say. But any human that can sit there and tell me it is nature to put a defenseless animal into a cage and have it killed by another animal going thru rehab or being a kept pet , is not nature. You see in nature there is a 50-50 chance that the prey will escape. But when you take an animal and stick it in a cage where it has no where to hide how the heck do you call that fair/nature I personally call it murder. As far as raptors being let go in this city . I have lived here 40 years my whole life. Always have been aware of what flys above and around me since I was a child. Never and I mean never have I seen a raptor here until six months ago.. Thats wonderful you personally don't use pigeons in your rehab process, I just hope that the dead animals you acquire from torturers of labs are free of diseases that have been given to them by injection (man made diseases) you wouldn't want the raptors flying around with some strange disease that could possible infect us humans right??? I feel that any injured animal has a right to be helped and not picked up by some human and driven 20+ miles thinking that they are helping this hurt animal only to hand them over to someone that takes their donation money , says thanks. and then feeds the innocent injured animal to the claws and beak that shreds it . Thanks Andi


----------



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

Terry 

The article was written up in the EASY READER which is a paper magazine that is distributed thoughout the beach cities here in southbay.. The office for the Easy Reader is in Hermosa Beach California. If you give me your address I can mail you a copy. Andi


----------



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

PEACE ON EARTH 

Aren't humans amazing animals? They kill wildlife by the millions, in order to protect their domestic animals and their feed. Then humans kill Millions of more animals and eats them. 

This in turn kills humans by the Millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative and fatal heart conditions such as heart disease, and cancer. Humans then torture, and kill Billons of more animals to look for cures for these diseases. 

Elsewhere in the world, millions of humans are dying from hunger and malnutrition because the food they could of eaten is being used to fatten domestic animals. 

Meanwhile, once a year, people send out cards praying for "Peace on Earth".


----------



## JigoSan (Mar 28, 2003)

Wow, I didn't expect that kind of response. Understand everybody that I myself LOVE pigeons and that as a representative of the rehabilitation facility that I work for I just want to clarify that: WE ARE COMMITED TO RESCUING AND REHABING ALL PIGEONS THAT WE GET FROM PEOPLE AND NONE OF THEM ARE FED TO OUR RAPTORS, WE HAVE AN APX. 85% SUCESS RATE WITH SAVING THE LIVES OF BIRDS WE GET THAT HAVE BEEN INJURED, THE AMOUNT OF PIGEONS WE GET IS HIGHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF RAPTORS, AND THUS WE ACTUALLY SAVE MORE PIGEON LIVES THAN RAPTOR LIVES. 
Having said that, I want to also clarify that I am NOT defending the rehab center in question that actually has the audacity to feed the pigeons it spends the time to rescue and rehab to the raptors for food, not to mention lie to all the people that bring them the birds hoping that they will be saved. This is abominable and must be stopped immediately. 
I also what to clarify to Andi that the raptors released in her area should not be released there if they are non-indegenious species and the center should put them back exactly where they found them. Im sure you agree with me that the indegenious species of raptors (if there are any) in your area have just as much right to be there as the pigeons do and I don't think you mean that they shouldn't be there. Also because you asked, the laboratory animals we aquire from certain lab such as Princton and Charles River are all euthanized with CO2, an allegedy "humane" way to kill animals. Understand that we take very good care of our birds and monitor their food VERY carefully for contaminints and bought from reputable laboratory breeders like the for-mentioned that would never inject their animals with anything. I have to go now, but I will be on later to answer anymore question you have.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Well, JigoSan....
Terry did forewarn you. lol. 
We do take the treatment of our fine feathered friends quite seriously. And our feathers become a bit ruffled when we hear of them being treated unjustly. 

I'm sure you will agree that putting a pigeon in a cage for a raptor to hunt down & consume is certainly not a challenge for the raptor. This, I believe, is where we are having a problem justifying the actions.
Cindy


----------



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

I am upset not with anyone who has responded regarding the rehab center. but I am very disappointed knowing for six+ years I thought I was helping injured birds that would once fly again and return home to their families. Asking the rehab people each time can I come and pick him up to bring him home, and told oh no! they always find their way home , pigeons can make it 60+ miles. 

The world would be a very boring place if we all thought and had the same beliefs. I just don't understand how anyone can hurt an innocent animal, I can't even kill ants ! pretty bad I know. Ants.com Ha! ha

As for the animals coming from labs, thats great they were killed in a painless way. But what were they used for.? I hope you don't have to pay for dead animals?? 
most lab animals used for research are induced with toxic chems or viruses. I'm sure they didn't put them down for old age. Ha! I have seen more than I can stand working with animal rights groups.

No hard feelings to you or your raptor friends.

Pigeons, Love, and Peace. 
Andi in LA


----------



## JigoSan (Mar 28, 2003)

I appreciate your reply regarding my past post. To answer your question about our lab animals we get them for free as our facility is a non-profit, non-funded organization dedicated to the rescue and rehabilitaion of all native, wild birds. The labs in question (ie. Charles River, Princton Molecular Biology Department, and HARLAN Inc.) also make considerable donations to help support our effort and for that they deserve credit. I hope you understand that it is an absolute necesity to recieve these animals as we have no other way to feed our birds of prey of which we have considerable numbers, not only birds being rehabed but birds permenantly crippled or imprinted that need to stay with us for they have no hope of survival in the wild. These birds consist on diets of mice, rats, rabbits, quail, and fish. The rest of the food we make ourselves, we also feed some of our birds crickets, mealworms, and flies. Meat is a natural food for a vast majority of not only animals, but of all living organisms including plants, fungi, protists, and bacteria. There is nothing unnatural or unethical about the consumption of meat in my opinion, although I do see your point regarding a post you had written about the excess consumption and over-breeding of meat producing animals not to mention the god-awful conditions they are forced to live in for their short lives. However, it is a necestiy for our birds, and apart from going out and capturing the animals ourselves we have no other practical way of feeding them. All the animals we get are non-contaminated and euthanized by CO2 for the specific purpose of being food and to be tesetd on IN THE FUTURE, no research is done on them prior whatsoever. All food is de-thawed (they come frozen) by us and rinsed with pure water and soaked for a brief period of time as raptors recieve hydration from the meat they eat and rarely drink water and we have to compensate for the dehydration in the meat that occurs during the freezing process. Most of the food is then laced with additional vitimans and suppliments and in some cases anti-biotics (for example we usually inject the fish we get with vitiman B2 before they get fed to the birds.) Then the meat is given to the birds and if they don't eat it within 24 hours it is thrown away or given to our vultures as they prefer older meat (they eat carrion in the wild.)
Too much meat, as too much of anything, can kill you, obviously. Humans by nature are omnivores eating a balanced diet of meat AND plant matter including fungus, but most animals are carnivores and survive entirely on a diet of meat, such are raptors. There is no way to surpress this nature and we do our best to ensure that all our birds are well fed.
As for the hacking process, our birds are hacked exclusively on mice, NO LIVE BIRDS ARE USED WHATSOEVER. All our birds go through a "graduation process" from the time we recieve them till the time when they are released. Starting in the infirmary for treatment, when they are well enough they are moved to one of our outdoor cages where birds with casts or splints can move around on the ground to some extent but cannot yet fly. After the bones or feathers are healed, they are placed in a "small flight" cage with other birds to socialize and more importantly fly back and forth from perch to perch. Once they have done this for a long enough time they are placed in a "large flight cage" to further practice their flying and to be hacked. In each large flight cage there is a box, about 50x50 feet in the center of the cage full of leaves and grass and stumps, like a meadow or forest floor. Depending on how many birds are in the large flight, we put in apx. 10-20 live black mice in this box and let them hide and what not, then we leave the cage and observe the ability of the birds to catch these mice. If they are able to catch them on a regular basis, then they are released, if not then we simply keep them longer until they can catch all the mice whenever they are hungry. If they cannot catch the mice at all then we bring them back into one of the small flight cages where they are once again fed by us until they are ready to try again.
This is the only way we have of testing the birds to see if they can survive once we let them go. Most birds take a little time to re-learn to catch mice since they have been hand fed for so long. Some birds pick it up right away and still others never remember and we keep these birds with us and try whatever we can to get them to remember. Out of these birds most don't remember and they end up staying with us. Without hacking there would be no way to tell how well the birds can survive on the wild and while a box with leaves and grass is a cheap substitiue for the real world, it is the best we have. I know some rehab center use pigeons to hack their bird-catching raptors like peregrin falcons. While I don't support this in the least, I still can't find the difference from what we do and what they do; using live animals to eventually get killed. I suppose I am being sort of a hypocrite in saying its ok for mice to get killed but not pigeons, but being someone who really loves pigeons and who helps them no a daily basis I cannot bring myself to say that I can accept that kind of hacking. I will admit that I don't really know where I stand on the issue of hacking. I can't make up my mind to justify it either way. I would appreciate your opinions.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I agree with Andinla that putting a live pigeon in with a raptor to be destroyed is cruel, particularly since pigeons are so intelligent, and doesn't prove anything about the raptor's ability to hunt.

I think Nooti once mentioned she does not have to sacrifice living aware animals to prove the raptors' ability to hunt because mice would go into her aviary by choice and, of course, get caught. This seemed a natural and acceptable situation to those of us who love pigeons, mice and birds of prey (who have no choice about being what they are!) 

Cynthia

------------------
_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


----------



## screamingeagle (Oct 16, 2002)

I think if you're going to rehabilitate a raptor with live prey (such as pigeons), it should be done in a VERY large area, like what zoos use, so it'd be more natural and allow the prey to get away just like in the wild. And I don't think you should use injured animals that people bring in to be rehabilitated. Besides, how is feeding it an injured animals helping it learn to hunt, that's just too easy. And you wouldn't release wolves in a residential neighborhood, so why release raptors there? I'm sure they'd be much happier in a nice wooded area anyway!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

boy, I guess my posted reply never was read

hello.... anybody there????


----------



## JigoSan (Mar 28, 2003)

I would just like to say, and this time I'm going to make it quick, that our facility doesn't use pigeons to hack bird-catching raptors, being as that we don't have any but wouldn't use them even if we did. It IS a challenge for Rapotrs to catch mice in a cage after being hand fed for up to months at a time, not as hard as it is in the wild, but as I said in my last post, some birds aren't even able to catch the hacking mice, so how would we expect them to hunt in the wild? Should we just put them all out to die because they can't catch food anymore? I think the answer is obvious. I don't know about pigeon hacking, to me this doesn't sound right and thats all i'm going to say about it for fear of sparking anymore controvesy. My final word is this, raptors NEED to be hacked before being released into the wild. There is no other way around it. It is unfortunate that many mice will be eaten, but this is the way it is.


----------



## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

Hi everyone, 

I to was confused on issues of what we call cruel and not cruel when it comes to animals either for food, for us humans or my dog, cats, etc.,, I worked in a deli and became a vegan eater for a long time. I then ate meat again when I got married. While I was rescuing dogs, animals from the shelters it hit me .. I am a total animal lover to the point my whole family thinks I go over board , but thats me I have been like this my whole life. How can I love them and turn around and eat them , just because I don't have to go out back and kill a cow doesn't make it ok , because I am the cause for slaughterhouses exsisting if I purchase meat. There is a saying "IF YOU LOVE ANIMALS CALLED PETS? , WHY DO YOU EAT ANIMALS CALLED DINNER ?" 

I have chosen not to consume animal meat no more. 

We own two white mice we rescued from petco and they are so cute and have so much personality I could never feed them to a snake and either could my two boys. We also own three rabbits , three cats, two dogs, and several pigeons. Any ways some one has to help the raptors are there wouldn't be any and that is the choice you have made and you like. take care, Andi In LA


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Yes, Trees Gray, we are here!
And yes,I read your post as I'm quite sure many members did.
Please don't feel 'slighted' if you are not addressed personally in a reply. 
There are multiple forums on this site and many posts within them. Sometimes we reply in a general sense, sometimes we reply to a member personally. Sometimes we read a post and no reply is made. 
Please do continue to join in on the discussions as we feel all posts are important and informative.
Cindy


----------

