# Pesto acting very weird... Reply ASAP



## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi everyone. Well yet another question, I am getting very concerned about Pesto (13 years old) I have noticed for about 3 days now that she is breathing with her mouth opened, looks like she has a wide throat and breathing with her mouth opened. Looks alot like the Mourning Doves in the wild with canker starting in their throats. I have checked her throat all the way down as far as I can see with a very bright flash light and there is no lumps or bumps or canker starting. Poops are normal and eating fine. She acts like she has something caught in her throat or trying to clear it. Is there anything I can do apart from running up a huge vet bill? I can't seem to win lately, this sucks. She has nothing in her cage except one toy and it is a rubber hangy toy for preening. No heavy metal or anything. 

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

About the only thing you can do besides antibiotics is to get her breathing some steam in case she's suffering from some thick mucus in her airway. Personally, I'd do both. When I took Unie in for a nebulized treatment of Gentamicin and Saline, the Saline probably did the most good in the short term.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Have you counted the respiration rate (and compared it to a healthy bird of the same species)? That can help you know if it's upper versus lower respiratory.

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

So another words a crop flush? If that is what you are talking about then I could take her in and have the vet do that, as she has done it before. 

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cindy, NO to the crop wash. To me that would be one of the worst things you could do right now. Pidgey is talking about getting some moist air around her to help her breathe better.

You can do this by covering her cage on 3 sides and the top, boil some water in a pot and set the pot about 2 feet away so some steam can be around her but not directly on her. Leave it for about one hour. I would do it maybe 3 times a day.

Check her nares to make sure nothing is obstructing her nostrils and check her respirations like Pidgey said. I am sure you will need to get her on antibiotics.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cindy, air sac mites can also cause respiratory problems. Do you have anything to dust or spray her with? We use Scatt. I can't remember if she is a house bird or whether you have her outside? I know you love her very much so I hope this is just something really minor.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

With the labored breathing, I'm wondering if she could have Aspergillois. [sp]
Something to concider.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

She is strictly an inside bird no outside for her. I have regular bird lice and mite spray. And the vet a little while ago gave me some stuff for my other bird. She said 1 drop is all and repeat the dose in 2 weeks it will get rid of any parasites in or out if he had any. Don't know what the stuff is called though, she said to keep it out of the sunlight and it will be good for 1 year.

Cindy


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Could she get this Aspergillois if she has never been outdoors? 

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Aspergillus is a species of fungus. It's pretty much everywhere all the time (ubiquitous) and you have to be immunocompromised to come down with a serious case of it OR you have to get one heckuva'n exposure (breath in a major amount of the spores in one whack).

Did you give her some steam? Have you counted the respiration rate (watch the tail-bobbing)?

Pidgey


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

naturegirl said:


> ...I have noticed for about 3 days now that she is breathing with her mouth opened, looks like she has a wide throat and breathing with her mouth opened......
> 
> Cindy


Let me ask a few....perhaps stupid questions. I do not have a lot of experience with sick pigeons, and sometimes, at least in my experience, the simple explanations are often the best place to start. 

How hot was/is the room this bird is kept in, and is the bird ever in direct sunlight ? Is the bird overweight ? In my personal experiece with three local avian vets, they know almost nothing about pigeons, and would have no clue as to if the bird was under/over weight. So I don't know how you would know, but a very overweight bird in a hot stuffy room, might pant like you describe, so it need not be some exotic illness. 

Any smokers in your house ? Does your bird have any access to fresh air ? Why did the vet do a crop flush on this bird before ?


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

The room was at approx 75 degrees and she isn't in Direct sunlight, she isn't over weight at all weighing in at 333grams. The vet did a crop wash on her before as she was acting simular to what she did this time but she was throwing up, she did a x-ray and said that she seen metal in her crop, which I think that is BS because she can't get ahold of anything metal to bite or lick or suck on etc. I then switched her to only filtered water as I was using nonfiltered before and haven't had a bit of trouble till now. Could it be her age she is 13 years old. She has had the most pampered life and the best of everything, including about $ 600.00 put in her throughout the years for well vet visits etc. 

Cindy

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy, 




Always ask to have the doctor go over any X-Rays, with you looking at the X-Ray with the doctor as they explain the finding or implications.


If such an image exists, they would still have it on file, so next time you are there, ask to see it and to have it explained WHILE you are looking at it with the doctor.


Open Beak breathing can express needing more Oxygen...or ineffecient Oxygen absorbsion, which usually implys some possible Respiratory infection or compromise, but it can also indicate Heart or Circulatory problems.


Too...

You need to find out what kind of 'metal' this Vet claims to have seen indications of in the X-Ray, and then, start looking for a better, or at least competant Vet.

Metal 'in' Birds is a very serious matter, and is hardly something any real Vet would merely mention in passing without impressing on you explicitly, the very serious nature of the finding.


Metal of one kind or another could occur ( if very rarely, ) mixed in Seeds or other Foods and need not come from the ostensibly provided home situation...or may have occurred even years ago before you got the Bird.



Weak or compromised immune systems can permit any number of ambient or background bacteria or viruses to or molds and the likes, to assume proportions of illness or disease.


Lack of, or insufficient direct, out door Sunshine, and lack of fresh Greens, typical of indoor Bird's situations, can eventuate in many ambiguous presentations which derive in essense from malnourished and compromised systems and immune systems, and whatever de-jur or hap-hazard bacterias or viruses or molds and so on, as may then happen to have started getting an upper hand.



Those are my thoughts anyway...wish I had more to offer...!


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

She did go over the x-ray with me and you could see something metalic in the crop. We don't really know what it was, that is why she kept asking if she could have gotten into anything metal. Like I told her no absolutely not, I am very aware of the heavy metal poisoning in birds and I am very parinoid of that so take extra caution around the birds. A neighbor took a water sample of his water and said the water where we live isn't good at all even though the county says it meets standards and is healthy, so I took and switched to only filtered water for all my birds including all my rehab birds. Pesto only gets the best of everything as she is like another child to me. That is why I get so worked up when something goes wrong with her as she is my baby even at age 13. 

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cindy,

Here is the response from Myriam, in regards to Pesto....it is on your other thread. 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=213476&postcount=14


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

naturegirl said:


> She did go over the x-ray with me and you could see something metalic in the crop. We don't really know what it was, that is why she kept asking if she could have gotten into anything metal. Like I told her no absolutely not, I am very aware of the heavy metal poisoning in birds and I am very parinoid of that so take extra caution around the birds. A neighbor took a water sample of his water and said the water where we live isn't good at all even though the county says it meets standards and is healthy, so I took and switched to only filtered water for all my birds including all my rehab birds. Pesto only gets the best of everything as she is like another child to me. That is why I get so worked up when something goes wrong with her as she is my baby even at age 13.
> 
> Cindy




Hi Cindy, 


To my appreciations, you needed to have got the metal-thing removed THEN or a.s.a.p. frlom then.

If the metal-thing is in the Crop, why not get it out? - get it removed, or one way or another, get it out of there..? The Crop is the easiest place TO get some foreign object out of...if it passes on to the Stomach or Gizzard the Proceedure/operation becomes rather dangerous or impossible.



A simple incision into the Crop, and for that matter given all the ripped open Crops and torn Crops I and others have seen, with the Birds eating and happy looking almost immediately after a closure where no anaesthetic was used, I would say just get it done simply and do not risk the Bird's life or Liver with even useing any anaesthetic unless it is a 'local'...especially an old Bird or one who is already in less than tip top shape.

That would be safest...and that way, the object can be gently massaged out through the incision, a few closing stitches made, and it soon heals, and the Bird is then free of whatever this is.

This is very scary...having ANY kind of foreign object in the Crop is very dangerous and very bad for the Bird even without subsequent dangers...if it DID pass on down and get to the Gizzard, it could kill her, or would very seriously mess her up for good at least...as well as being no longer easy TO get to for removal.

It does not make any sense to disregard the testimony of the X-Ray on the basis of how you do not see HOW it could have got there.

If it is there, it "IS" there, whether you can account for how it got there or not, and the reality of it's presence should take precedent over explaining 'how' it got there...for now, who cares 'how' it got there!

Maybe it is a steel object, a Bee-Bee even or a small Nut or Screw...who knows? 

It will be having a very bad effect on her Crop JUST being there, regardless of what it is composition wise.


I think it would be a good idea to get it "out" a.s.a.p.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Usually, if it's a zinc-coated thing then the bird suffers zinc poisoning. I think the most obvious symptoms of that are extreme polydipsia and polyuria (excessive thirst and urination, respectively). It's difficult for me to imagine a veterinary clinic seeing something like that on an X-Ray and not doing a blasted thing about it. Of course, it can be a lack of the proper kind of equipment to go on a fishing expedition like happened with Cassidy in that thread where Kwikkordead got the bird to TerriB. I guess they found that one with the metal piece in the proventriculus. It might have been possible to go endoscopically down through the esophagus (or even through a surgical hole in the crop) but they would have likely had to intubate the bird to maintain respiratory function for that operation.

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

She is doing the same thing right now while I am holding her. Beak opened, like she is having hard time breathing. This is just stressing the hell out of me, I am so afraid I will find her dead before I can get her into the Dr. btw she goes in on Thursday at 3:00 pm. When she went over the last x-ray with me it looked like something metalic in her crop or throat area. I remember she took saline solution to flush in her crop and then expeled it to do a smear. So long ago I can't remember what the outcome was. I know when she goes thru one of these spells it whips her butt cause she is so tired afterwards. I don't know what to do anymore, I am keeping my fingers crossed she makes it till Thursday afternoon. I know she told me before she doesn't have a endoscope. Why? I don't really know. 

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they're not cheap, for one thing. I actually do have one but I went on eBay and did an awful lot of shopping for old parts to put a system together. It's a floroblique cystoscope with about a 30 degree lens and a light at the end. You could use something like that to look in the crop but you'd be just as well to gas the bird and cut the crop open to go looking. Sewing up a wound that you make yourself is actually pretty easy on a pigeon.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If it were me, I'd ask if your vet can run a nebulized treatment of Gentamicin and saline in a small aquarium-like tank for her.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re unknown source or type of metal in crop*

Lots of packaging has metal in it. Metal foils. Twist ties. Staples. Aluminum foils to seal openings on jars. Staples can be zinc-coated, sometimes are stainless steel (I think).

If you have a magnet handy, maybe a pick-up tool, you would probably be surprised at the amount of debris it would pick up. Small nails and tacks which get stuck in shoe soles and come off in house. Staples from junk mail, magaziness, whatever. Small pieces which break off household appliances (small pins in plastic hinges of coffee-maker lids, for example). Paper clips probably too large and obvious. Ditto for beer can pop-tops. 

Probably a scrap of something you never noticed because you never missed it.

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, if you can get your hands on the X-Ray and take picture of it lit from behind, you could post it and maybe someone could identify the shape.

Pidgey


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

When I go in there on Thursday I will have her pull the old x-ray and see if I can get a picture of it. I will also see about doing another one and see if there is anything still there. Pidgey I will see if she will do what you suggested with the same stuff you had done also. I need to write things down from here so I don't forget.

Right now she is resting and breathing norally again like nothing was ever wrong, that is the part I don't understand. Seems it has been happening for about 3 days or so every night about the same time lasting for about 1 to 1 1/2 hours.

Cindy


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That is kinda' odd. Anyhow, you can get a clearer picture of what I'm talking about from this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19543

There are links down the way with illustrations and everything.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cindy, I just want you to know I'll be thinking of you and Pesto, and hope everything goes well tomorrow. I know it is hard on you because you've had her so long and she means so much to you. Just hang in there.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Same here...


Good luck in this...


I hope you will get this resolved and have a happy Pesto again..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Thank You everyone for all your help and very ,very kind words. I am concern as she is such a dear sweet pigeon I love her with all my heart and if I lost her my heart would be sooo broken I think even much worse than when I went thru my divorce 7 years ago. I will let you know how things turn out when I get back from the vets. Thanks again, 

Cindy


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