# broken bottom beak



## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Hi, I have been feeding and providing water for pigeons that land in my backyard. They have become extremely friendly and fly on me expecting me to give them treats. Anyway, there's this one pigeon that also started coming around but he is more skittish and won't approach me. No big deal. One day about 3 weeks ago I noticed that his face was swollen and his beak was extremely swollen. I couldn't catch him so nothing I could do. He was having a hard time pecking at the food because of how swollen his face and beak was.

Yesterday, he flew up on my shoulder for food. He's lost an incredible amount of weight so I guess he's not been able to eat even though he tries. The swelling has gone down and he's really very, very skinny. I have an aviary outside so I took him in there and looked at him. The bottom beak is broken off which is why he can't eat. I hand fed him and then gave him a deep dish filled with seed so he wouldn't have to try and peck, he could just stick his face in the bowl and eat. He ate for about 10 minutes straight. Poor little guy was starving to death.

The upper beak is a bit long so I'll file that down tomorrow. What I want to know is if the bottom beak will grow back? I know the upper part of a beak grows but will the bottom grow as well? If not, then he'll never be releaseable since he won't be able to eat. I alread have three pigeons in the aviary that won't ever be able to be released. It's a large aviary and they live with my chickens.

Here are a couple of photos I took early today. Any adivce?

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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for helping this bird.

Have you checked inside the beak? I would treat the bird for canker.

That is a good question about the bottom beak, but I have never heard of them regrowing the bottom beak. Just make sure he has a spill proof deep dish to eat from, because that is how he will have to eat, he will not be releasable.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

We had one that had lost her bottom beak, it grew a very small shaped bit of beak over a few months, that enabled her to pick up seed but she always needed a bit of supportive feeding, so I would definitely keep this one in supported housing.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

No, I haven't looked inside the beak. What should I look for? I don't know what canker is.

He does have a spill proof dish that he's been eating out of. He's already made friends with another pigeon in the aviary that won't be released due to a severe leg injury. They're hanging out together.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Feefo said:


> We had one that had lost her bottom beak, it grew a very small shaped bit of beak over a few months, that enabled her to pick up seed but she always needed a bit of supportive feeding, so I would definitely keep this one in supported housing.


Right now, I'm not doing anything for him/her except provide a deep dish. Should I be doing something else?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Feefo said:


> We had one that had lost her bottom beak, it grew a very small shaped bit of beak over a few months, that enabled her to pick up seed but she always needed a bit of supportive feeding, so I would definitely keep this one in supported housing.


*The inside of the beak should be pink, nothing yellow looking or white lesions or spots and there should be no foul odor.*


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Skyeking said:


> *The inside of the beak should be pink, nothing yellow looking or white lesions or spots and there should be no foul odor.*


I just went out and checked. It's clear inside, pink. No stinky odor. I just took some of my macaw's pellets and hand fed him that. He was pecking and pecking at me to feed him more. He was hungry. I held the pellet between my fingers and it was a hit and miss with him. So I put my other hand on the back 
of his neck to steady him. He must have eaten 20 pellets before deciding he had enough. I don't think he's getting enough food even in the deep dish so I'm going to supplement with the macaw pellets two or three times a day. I sure hope he can start eating on his own again becuase this will be time consuming (not that I won't do it). It's time consuming because once he graps the pellet, half the time, he can't hold on to it and he drops it so I have to pick it up and give it to him again. They are small pellets so that's not the problem. At least now I know he had a decent size meal and I'll do this again this evening.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Besides the deep dish with seed, if you are short on time you can hand feed frozen peas (thawed, drained, and warmed) This is easy and fills them up quickly and you don't have to give water afterward.*


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Skyeking said:


> *Besides the deep dish with seed, if you are short on time you can hand feed frozen peas (thawed, drained, and warmed) This is easy and fills them up quickly and you don't have to give water afterward.*


Thanks. Hopefully that will be faster than the round pellets that I feed my macaw. They're softer and would be easier to grasp. Is that enough nutrition or should I still do the parrot pellets once or twice a day for nutritional purposes?

Thank you everybody for your help. I have a feeling this little guy, whom I have named "Beak" will be with me for the rest of his life. He's now living with three other pigeons and four chickens. 

p.s. He didn't like the peas and wouldn't eat them. So it's back to my macaw's food for him. I ended up throwing down the peas on the ground and letting the chickens eat it.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Pigeons are very adaptable and I'm sure that in time he'll learn to pick up food on his own, so you won't have to hand feed him. We have a member who's pigeon has no upper beak at all and he's still able to eat on his own just fine.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your help. He's doing okay right now and I'll be filing his upper beak down with an emery board sometime today (not a lot) to help a bit in eating on his own. He seems to like the food from my macaw and it's filling so I'll keep feeding him that until he feels comfortable eating on his own all the time. He's just too skinny for me to feel comfortable leaving him on his own in the aviary to feed himself. For now, he seems to have made himself at home and has bonded with another pigeon that won't ever be releasable. They're hanging together. 

THere's a lot of birds in that aviary now. Four pigeons and four chickens. 

One last thing if I may though a bit off topic. Since the pigeons and chickens live together, I have found the pigeons helping themselves to the chicken feed. They're not chowing down on it as their main supplement but they do help themselves until one of the chickens pecks them away from their food (chickens seem to be territorial over their food). Is it okay for the pigeons to eat chicken feed?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They shouldn't even be housed together. The chickens can really hurt the pigeons, especially if they are handicapped in any way, and the pigeons can pick up diseases from the chickens.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> They shouldn't even be housed together. The chickens can really hurt the pigeons, especially if they are handicapped in any way, and the pigeons can pick up diseases from the chickens.


Before I housed them together, I did some research and talked to people that did house them together. The birds pretty much ignore each other. I do know that a chicken's peck can really hurt and chickens can peck each other to death. I've been housing them together for quite a while and they pretty much ignore each other. I have one pigeon that for some reason, goes after the chickens if he feels that they are encroaching on his space. For instance, one night I observed the pigeon go into the chicken sleeping area and kicked out all four chickens from their little coop. It was probably about 5 minutes after the chickens went in there for the night. They came out clucking and upset and stood there not knowing what to do. I reached in and removed the pigeon and put him in his own sleeping quarters where he's been sleeping ever since he's been in the aviary. I then had to pick up each chicken and put them in their coop where they settled down for the night. 

I honestly am not worried about the chickens hurting the pigeons because they just don't go after them after living all this time in the same aviary, I just think they're going toi start. It's an outdoor aviary, enclosed only with chicken wire. The pigeons have coops that are up high and the ones that cannot fly, the chickens have shown no interest whatsoever in taking over the pigeon's living quarters.

As to diseases, I am very careful with the chickens since I eat their eggs and I don't want to be eating any eggs from diseased chickens. The aviary is kept clean, water is changed twice a day. The floor is a dirt floor and I hose it down daily to clean up any pigeon and chicken poop. In fact, the pigeon feed that they scatter has started to sprout. I remove the straw from all the different bird's living quarters once a week and replace it. I clean off any poop on the surface with "poop-off" every couple of weeks. Since it is not enclosed and is covered with chicken wire all around, there is always fresh air as opposed to the birds living in an enclosed coop/aviary where dust from poop or amonia could cause respitory problems and a breeding ground for bacteria. 

With all the pigeons I have, I would have no place to house them unless I stuck them in small cages which I cannot even imagine doing that to them. At least they have room to fly around, walk around and peck at seeds. I don't have the the heart to get rid of either the chickens or the pigeons. I like having fresh eggs from birds that are not factory farmed. 

I guess this is the best I can do and so far, it has worked out for everyone. I even have my macaw's old cage in the aviary and I put him out there when the weather is nice so he can have some fresh air. None of the birds bother with him and he doesn't bother with them.

I also use food grade DE to control any mites or other such insects from becoming a problem with any of the birds. It works wonders since I put in their bedding and around the edges of the aviary.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

A pigeon that cannot fly is absolutely defenseless against a chicken. And none of us have ways to predict animal behavior, regardless of their past peaceful coexistence. 

The chicken wire is insufficient to protect your pigeons or chickens from predators. You need hardware cloth.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Chicken wire was made to keep chickens in. It doesn't keep predators out. A raccoon can tear through it if he really wants to, and they have. Rats and mice can get in through those holes, and rats can and will kill your birds, and mice will spread Salmonella. Actually, with a dirt floor, rats and things can even tunnel under. Really not safe. That is why most pigeons are closed up in a loft at night, and chickens in a closed up coop.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

My pigeon is missing his entire upper beak. I feed his dove seed mixed with mini harrison's pellets in a dish filled to the top so he can eat. I do the same with water.
I would make sure he eats for now til he gets his strength back until you can see if he he is infected with something.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

pirab buk said:


> My pigeon is missing his entire upper beak. I feed his dove seed mixed with mini harrison's pellets in a dish filled to the top so he can eat. I do the same with water.
> I would make sure he eats for now til he gets his strength back until you can see if he he is infected with something.


Thank you. I do keep a deep dish for him full of seeds but I do supplement with pellets by hand feeding him the macaw pellets one by one a couple of times a day. He's so hungry that I will have to continue to do that until he can eat enough on his own. I did file down his upper beak with an emery board but it's not enough.

Thanks


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

tishrei said:


> Before I housed them together, I did some research and talked to people that did house them together. The birds pretty much ignore each other. I do know that a chicken's peck can really hurt and chickens can peck each other to death. I've been housing them together for quite a while and they pretty much ignore each other. I have one pigeon that for some reason, goes after the chickens if he feels that they are encroaching on his space. For instance, one night I observed the pigeon go into the chicken sleeping area and kicked out all four chickens from their little coop. It was probably about 5 minutes after the chickens went in there for the night. They came out clucking and upset and stood there not knowing what to do. I reached in and removed the pigeon and put him in his own sleeping quarters where he's been sleeping ever since he's been in the aviary. I then had to pick up each chicken and put them in their coop where they settled down for the night.
> 
> I honestly am not worried about the chickens hurting the pigeons because they just don't go after them after living all this time in the same aviary, I just think they're going toi start. It's an outdoor aviary, enclosed only with chicken wire. The pigeons have coops that are up high and the ones that cannot fly, the chickens have shown no interest whatsoever in taking over the pigeon's living quarters.
> 
> ...


That choice will undoubtably get taken out of your hands at some point.
I'd say you've been lucky so far, as both NYC & Jay3 point out, Chicken wire is no deterant to any predator, and although your chickens may be healthy, keeping Pigeons & chickens together is detremental to the health of the pigeons.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

There's not a whole lot I can do. I cannot separate the birds for I have no place to build another aviary. As to animals digging, not possible. Around the aviary, we dug something like a moat and filled it with concrete. An animal would have to be able to dig through concrete to get to them. The only thing I can do is put that mesh over the chicken wire. However, at night, no animal can see any of the birds (pigeons or chickens) because they all have houses inside the aviary and that's where they sleep. They each go in on their own when it gets dark and don't come out until the sun comes up.

As to separating them, not possible unless the pigeons have to live their lives in cages where they can't fly around. The only other option would be to get rid of them.

I really understand the concern eveyone has. I was also told I could not keep a parrotlet with budgies for the parrotlet would kill the budgies. They all live together in a big flight cage and the parrotlet has not injured the budgies -- and it's been five years. Seriously, there's no place to put the pigeons except in small cages where they have room to stand but and turn around but not much else or get rid of them. 

I didn't go looking to get pigeons, they just sort of ended up here injured and so I took them in. I've released the ones I can and the ones that are not releasable, they live in the aviary.

What do you suggest?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> They shouldn't even be housed together. The chickens can really hurt the pigeons, especially if they are handicapped in any way, and the pigeons can pick up diseases from the chickens.





nycpigeonlady said:


> A pigeon that cannot fly is absolutely defenseless against a chicken. And none of us have ways to predict animal behavior, regardless of their past peaceful coexistence.
> 
> The chicken wire is insufficient to protect your pigeons or chickens from predators. You need hardware cloth.





Jay3 said:


> Chicken wire was made to keep chickens in. It doesn't keep predators out. A raccoon can tear through it if he really wants to, and they have. Rats and mice can get in through those holes, and rats can and will kill your birds, and mice will spread Salmonella. Actually, with a dirt floor, rats and things can even tunnel under. Really not safe. That is why most pigeons are closed up in a loft at night, and chickens in a closed up coop.


*You have been given excellent advice, it would be in all your birds' BEST interest to follow it. Thank you.*


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

tishrei said:


> There's not a whole lot I can do. I cannot separate the birds for I have no place to build another aviary. As to animals digging, not possible. Around the aviary, we dug something like a moat and filled it with concrete. An animal would have to be able to dig through concrete to get to them. The only thing I can do is put that mesh over the chicken wire. However, at night, no animal can see any of the birds (pigeons or chickens) because they all have houses inside the aviary and that's where they sleep. They each go in on their own when it gets dark and don't come out until the sun comes up.
> 
> As to separating them, not possible unless the pigeons have to live their lives in cages where they can't fly around. The only other option would be to get rid of them.
> 
> ...


The concrete moat is certainly a deterrant, but it wont stop them.
Mice & rats are excellent tunnelers & when they hit a brick wall they simply go around or under.

Hardware cloth over the top of chicken wire is fine. Chicken wire itself is just too soft, pliable & when its been exposed to the elements for a while becomes brittle, so becomes easier to simply gnaw through or rip off.

Predators dont just go by sight, most animals have an extremely accute sense of smell and can smell a meal a mile away (literally). The stronger the smell, the more determined they become. 

If its not possible to make all implementations, please keep a keen eye open for the least sign of anything untoward & act fast rather than watch slowly.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I just now saw this thread, and haven't studied all the posts, but want to mention that you should make sure he gets enough calcium or grit. Calcium is needed to fight infections.

Here is a link to my photo albums. A couple of the albums have photos of pigeon and jackdaw skulls, os you can see the bones of the beak.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100953580439453378691/albums?hl=en

I just now saw this thread, and haven't studied all the posts, but want to mention that you should make sure he gets enough calcium or grit. Calcium is needed to fight infections.

Here is a link to my photo albums. A couple of the albums have photos of pigeon and jackdaw skulls, os you can see the bones of the beak.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100953580439453378691/albums?hl=en

Added later: OK, I now have read everything carefully. I agree about the hardware cloth, which is quite expensive here in Belgium. My brother-in-law and his wife have a "mini-farm", and they have lost rabbits to ferrets, and chickens to a neighbor's dog. They had the rabbits for a number of years before the ferret got them, and they had the chickens enclosed with a high chicken-wire fence for about twenty years before the dog came along.

When something hasn't happened over a period of time, a person becomes complacent and can assume that it won't happen. Probably a factor why so many of us succumb to heart disease and cancer. 

Larry


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

Skyeking said:


> *You have been given excellent advice, it would be in all your birds' BEST interest to follow it. Thank you.*


Sigh. A very frustrating response. I just posted that I have absolutely no place to build another aviary and that the only other options would be to get rid of them or stick them in small cages.

It's all well and good to give advice as to the best possible solution. In the line of work that I do, there is a best possible recommendation but it's not always possible for the client follow based on their circumstances. Instead, we offer a best possible recommendaiton based on their circumstances. In my particular circumstances, I do not have the room to build another aviary. The only way I could build another aviary to house the pigeons separate from the chickens would be to rip out my pool (and devalue my property) fill it in and build an aviary there (thousands of dollars to do that). Or I could get rid of my vegatable garden that I've worked hard on for years and build one there. Those are two options that I am absolutely unwilling to do. The other options would be to get rid of the pigeons or the chickens or to house the pigeons in cages where they would not have an opportunity to walk around or fly (those that are able to fly). I have already stated that several times that those are my only options other than keeping the pigeons with the chickens. And yet, all I am told is that I must separate them.

Here is a little bit of how they interact. Chickens will peck another to death under certain circumstances. In factory farming, they debeak chickens because of the overcrowding. They are living in conditions that are abusive (small cages) no room to walk around or scratch and do chicken stuff. In my situation, they not only have lots of room to run around in the aviary, but I let them out to run around in the garden scratching for bugs. It's good for the garden and it's good for the chickens. Even in the aviary, they are able to do natural chicken behavior such as scratching for bugs, running around,having different areas for themselves. In the long length of time that they have been living together, not once did the chickens even show any act of aggression towards the pigeons. In fact, it's the other way around. 

They all have established a pecking order. One of the pigeons (who cannot fly) is the boss of the aviary. I have different dishes of pigeon seeds in different areas of the aviary so that the pigeons can eat because the pigeons will fight amongst each other. However, I only have one feeding bin for the chickens and they will line up side by side and eat with no fighting amongst each other. The one pigeon that can't fly will go up to the chickens when they are eating and push them out of the way and eat out of their feeding trough. They actually move away and wait for him to finish and go off and scratch for bugs or go eat some pigeon seed until he's finished and then return to their feed. That happens *every. single. day.* without fail.

That one pigeon has mated with one of the other pigeons and they have raised babies. Not once did any of the chickens bother with the babies. They not only do not bother with the babies but have never entered the pigeons's housing where they raise the babies. On the other hand, that one pigeon will enter the housing for the chickens and kick them out. That happens every single night. What I now do is every night, I go out to the aviary and remove the pigeon so that the chickens can have their house back. I've actually watched the pigeon go into the chicken house and all four chickens run out clucking in frustration and then stand around wondering what to do. Once I remove the pigeon and put him back in his own house with his mate, the chickens go back into their house and bed down. Since it's dark, the pigeon stays in his house and doesn't try and go back into the chicken housing. 

Just yesterday, the pigeon that has a broken beak and is emaciated was on one of the flat perches laying down. I happened to be in the aviary doing water changing for the evening and making sure everything was set for them for the night and removing all the food and putting it away for the night. The oldest chicken was standing on top of her house. She flew up to where the pigeon with the broken beak was laying. After reading about chickens killing pigeons here, I was ready to step in and save the pigeon for the chicken is at least four times the size of that little emaciated pigeon. Instead, I stood there and watched the chicken lay down next to the pigeon. The pigeon was annoyed at having to share that perch so he/she *unbelievably* wing slapped the chicken who did NOT react except to cluck in annoyance. Finally the pigeon flew off and went to his/her own housing. It was crazy to see this tiny little skinny pigeon with no meat on his body wing slapping a full sized chicken and even crazier to see the chicken do nothing. I expected to see at least a peck to get the pigeon to stop.

They have established a pecking order and the one pigeon runs the place. 

The point of this whole post is that I have no other place for the pigeons unless they are put in small individual cages. Their quality of live will be very much diminished and honestly, if that were to be their life, they would be better off being put down. The other option will be to get rid of them. It is *not* an option to dig up my vegetable garden, get rid of the pool or chop down my fruit trees to build another aviary. 

I have already had built a large six foot high wooden fence that separates one part of the yard from the other so that the dogs cannot get into the area of the yard where the aviary is. 

It's very frustrating to read that I have been given very good advice but no advice on how to implement that very good advice based on the circumstances in which I find myself. No one has advised me to stick the pigeons in small cages and no one has advised me to get rid of them which are the only options that is available if I were to not keep them housed in the same aviary.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I appreciate your response, it better helps me understand exactly the position you are in, and we are really just trying to be helpful. If you have no options then that is it, and I can see you love your birds and keep a close and concerned eye out on them, and that is what is truly important. Thank you again for your lengthy explanation.*


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Obviously getting rid of either pigeons or chickens or keeping the pigeons in tiny cages are not options, but I wonder if your aviary is big enough to be partitioned. I know, it won't be much of an aviary then, but how big is it and how many birds do you have in there? From what I understand - 4 chickens and a growing number of pigeons, is that right? Substituting the pigeons' eggs for fake eggs will help to keep their numbers down, which is always nice when you're dealing with rescues where new additions are inevitable.

Please do put hardware cloth over the chicken wire, so your birds will be safer from predators.


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## tishrei (Oct 20, 2010)

I think I need to explain about the baby pigeons. Since they are born and raised outside, I release them. I have a bunch of feral pigeons that I feed that hang around the aviary. They have become very friendly -- sometimes too friendly as it's difficult to walk outside without them landing on me and pecking at me for treats. The babies are released to that flock. I don't keep pigeons that are able to be on their own. You're right, the birds in the aviary would be growing by leaps and bounds if I kept the babies. The only pigeons that I keep are those that cannot be released.

The way the aviary is set up is it's octangular and built around a large pine tree. It has a roof. With the roof and pine tree, I can keep them cooler. The trunk of the tree is part of the support as it's built into that. Even being built under the pine tree, sun still gets in and right now, they have the ability to move from one side to the other to get out of the sun. Last week, for a couple of days, it was over 110 degrees out and I really need to give all the birds a way to get out of the sun. I do wet down the earth and provide a whole bunch of cool water for them. I do have shade cloth on parts of the aviary where the sun really beats down. To divide the aviary would really give everyone a lot less space. The pigeons that are able to fly would not be able to do so as there would not be room to fly around. 

Right now I have four chickens and 5 pigeons. I had four pigeons until I just rescued the one that has a broken bottom beak. I let the chickens out a lot so they can do their chicken stuff and run around the yard. Because of cats in the neighborhood, I don't let them out unless I'm out there. They get out a minimum of twice a day though most of the time, they are out more than twice. They have seemed to worked out the pecking order between them -- the pigeons and chickens. 

Have the chickens ever pecked at any of the pigeons? Probably. I've just never seen it. But I can tell you that I have seen that one pigeon peck at the chickens and the other pigeons. If the chickens have pecked at the pigeons, it's a peck to get them to stop doing something but they don't stand there and peck them incessently which is what would kill the pigeon. Of the five pigeons, two can't fly. One is the mean one that kicks the chickens out of their house and moves them out of the way to eat their food, and the other one doesn't bother with them at all. The chickens really and truly ignore that pigeon. The other three can fly and do fly but have ailments that would prevent them from being released.

Honest, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to make do with the amount of space I have and yet give all the birds a fairly decent quality of life. That's why I have chickens because I do not want to eat eggs from chickens that have zero quality of life. I will put up hardware cloth over the chicken wire. I've already built a fence to keep the dogs away from that side of the yard so putting up hardware cloth is not a problem.

I do understand the concerns everyone has but in all this time they've been living together, it's worked out. I'm out there a lot.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thank you for explaining your situation. You're not being difficult - you're trying to do the best with what you have - I understand.


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