# Pigeon with badly damaged eye!



## BHenderson

View attachment 23533


Hi all,

I have not posted for some time as my life has been a bit chaotic. I have, however, continued to look after sick pigeons that I find. I have to come and ask advice about an unusual injury that I am not sure how to deal with.

I hopefully have attached a photo of the pigeon in question, you should be able to see that the eye is completely blocked with gunk of unknown origin. I saw this bird before this happened to its eye. I could see it was perching somewhere at night that was singing its head feathers, and over time it got worse and debris started to collect over the eye. I did make several attempts to catch the bird before things got to bad, but she was too fast and I am still a little clumsy with my net. In the end I was able to catch her by persuading her to come inside for something to eat. She is welcome to stay with the others as I feel without that other eye she is totally vulnerable to a cat attack on her blind side.

I have tried to treat the wound. When she first arrived I started to give a 10% Enroflox dose for about 7 days, but when I stopped the Enroflox the infection blew up with a vengeance, probably because the debris in the eye is not clean. The skin around the head is also burn and has turned into a hard shell, and puss was collecting under this cap and the wound was very hot to the touch.

After restating the Enroflox, the following night the wound had cooled down again and there did not seem to be so much puss. The debris and the puss and the debris in the eye are now fixed in place as a single lump. I gave a second dose of Enroflox, and I tried to apply a small amount of Dermisol cream. I am worried about using Dermisol in this way as the instructions say to keep it away from the eye, but the bit I applied was on top of the debris lump over the eye and not directly in it. The lump of Debris is fixed in place and I need to find some way of trying to loosen it up.

Has anyone dealt with an injury of this type? Does anyone have any suggestions about how I might proceed? I will continue with the Enroflox for an extended period this time, but I am concerned about using the Dermisol cream and am looking for advice.

Any helpful advice gratefully received,
Brian.


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## altgirl35

poor guy, i would keep going with the abs, also only use non steroidal antibiotic ointment that is intended for the use for eyes only
treat with abs for at least 10 consecutive days, may even need to go as long as 21
eye infections can take a long time to heal
you can also use a warm compress on the eye for 20 minutes a few times a day, that will feel good to him
also if you can get a non steroidal anti inflammatory like meloxicam that will help him with pain and inflammation
may want to consider flagyl also will wait to see what other members think about that


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## altgirl35

eye infections are very painful


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## BHenderson

I am aware that putting some Dermisol cream on the lump over her eye may have caused her some pain, because she stayed 'in bed' for a long time today.
I don't know if Enroflox is non steroidal, I will wait to see what others say. I will wait in the hope that someone who has experience treating this type of injure will comment.
If the injury is ever to heal, some of the junk on the eye must be removed, but I am not sure how to go about this.
Thank you for you comment, it all helps.


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## Jaye

Having a painkiller such as Metacam/Meloxicam would also be a huge relief to your friend...if you can get some.

I agree that the Enro/Cipro should be continued for a while...you can give it up to 5-6 weeks with no negative effects, actually.

It seems that if there is debris in the eye, this is an almost surgical-type of procedure and not one which a layman should attempt. Do you know of an Avian Vet in your area ?

Altgirl was referring to the TOPICAL cream being non-steroidal...not the oral med. Check online to see if Dermisol is non-steroidal.

Gentamycin drops are the ocular choice of my vets...but I am not sure they are available w/o prescription...

Thanks for helping your pal. You have done well so far.


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## BHenderson

Because of the delicacy of the eye's, I think this is one I am going to have to seek professional advice for. The only relevant medicine I have here is Enroflox 10% and Demisol cream. I am not sure the Dermisol is the right thing to use at all.
I do have access to some Metacam from an old cat perscription, it is still sealed 3ml bottle I think.

Lets just wait a bit longer before I call the vet to see what others think.


P.s. I meant to add I do have Flagyl tablets if that is a better option.


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## altgirl35

no i wouldn't use the dermisol, not meant for the eye
or use around the the eye
btw, i'm a wildlife rehabilitator, dealt with many of these injuries
you can give flagyl along with the enroflox, piji's are prone to trichmoniasis/canker and it is possible to get into the sinus cavity and eventually in the eye, possible culprit to the resulting infection
do you have a weight on him? do you need help with metacam dosage? if so, what is the mg/ml and his weight


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## BHenderson

I will weigh her when I give the next dose of Enroflox to save having to catch her twice. I also have to make a quick trip to may parents to pick up the Metacam, as it is from an old prescription for their cat. I have tried to buy Metacam from Spanish medicine suppliers where I am able to get medicines that require a prescription in the UK, but not Metacam. If anybody knows where to get it without prescription I would be grateful, as I have been caught short a couple of time with birds that were in obvious pain.

I will post in a couple of hours with both measures. Thank you for you help altgirl35.


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## BHenderson

Sorry for the delay getting back to you altgirl35, I was held up at my parents. If you have already left for the night I will start using your advice tomorrow.

The pigeon weighs 280gms, and the the Metacam is for cats. It says on the leaflet that 1ml contains Meloxicam 0.5mg. Equivalent to 0.017mg per drop.

There is what looks like a 1ml syringe with the pack that has kg marked at the top and 1 to 10 marked along the measure line.

I could also use some advice regarding the Enroflox dosage. It is 10% solution and it has been suggested to me that 3 drops once a day is enough for 'Frazzle', but I have read elsewhere that this dosage should be given twice a day? Can you advise me on the correct dosage. I am not able to put it in the water because all the birds share common drinking bowls that I give them vitamins and probiotics in.

Thank you for you help,
Brian.


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## altgirl35

Brb with the metacam dosage, I need to know the mg/ml for the abs dosage I have to check in my pharm book for that, I havnt used it before, mbe a uk member can advise


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## altgirl35

Okay, he gets 0.05 ml twice a day, for the first dose you can give him a loading dose 0.10 ml
One thing you need to know before dosing metacam is that he is hydrated, if you think he is dehydrated at all hydrate him first


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## altgirl35

Do you have a 1 ml syringe? I don't think the one that come with it has units on it


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## BHenderson

I do have a 1ml syringe, so the first dose would be from 0 to 1 on the measure, then all following doses would be half that amount?

I have already given the Enroflox for tonigt, but I would be grateful if you could also check the does of the enroflox 10% solution that I should be giving. It can wait till tomorrow though, because she has had tonights dose.

Thanks for the help altgirl35


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## altgirl35

Will try to see if I can figure out the dosing in the am, if there is any more info as far as mg/ml or anything that would be great, 
It's always best to direct dose birds if Possible rather than adding to the water, did you try the warm compress? 
I had a crow this winter who got attacked by other crows and her eye was a mess
I would towel her and just relax with her on my lap, she would struggle for a minute then i would apply the compress and just hold it against her bad eye, I could feel her relaxing almost right away
If a crazy crow pretty much told me it felt good it really must, I think it was the only time she ever did relax, she was really high strung especially when she had to deal with me grabbing her and medicating her


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## abluechipstock

i had a homer with an eye infection, i was using the eye powder and i ordered the dr pigeon, 1 eye 1 drop 1 time, it cleared that eye up in a day, he did go blind in that eye because it took so long to get the stuff but he's doing fine now, if i would have had it here when i needed it he wouldn't be blind


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## altgirl35

Ooo, do you know what the drug was in it? I must know more


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## BHenderson

Is the information I put in the message above not what you are looking for? It says on the leaflet '1ml contains Meloxicam 0.5mg. Equivalent to 0.017mg per drop'.

I have given her 0.1ml of Meloxicam last night, I cannot see any change in her behaviour except I can hear her scratching it this morning.

I am concerned about using a compress over the eye because there is still too much debris stuck over the eye. I would effectively be pushing the dirt into the eye. I am hoping that over time she is slowly scratching the debris away.

She only needs 1 dose of Metacam a day?


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## BHenderson

P.s. just so you know, although the message time says 11pm, its actually 8am here in the UK, so we may be working to slightly different times.


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> P.s. just so you know, although the message time says 11pm, its actually 8am here in the UK, so we may be working to slightly different times.


Brian, good to see you here again although sad about why.
If you go to your UserCP (Left Hand Side of Blue bar at top of page)
you can alter your time zone settings which will show your correct time on your posts.
It doesnt really matter except for your own benefit, as it will show the time you posted in her real time on altgirls screen if she has set her own time zone correctly.
(It shows at 8.am on my screen)


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## BHenderson

Hi Quazar, lifes been a bit chaotic, but I never forgot the pigeons lol.

Thank you for letting me know about the time zone settings, I have changed it so hopefully we will be able to follow each other better.

Brian.


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## BHenderson

Changed it again for DST, should be correct now!


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## altgirl35

Don't push on the compress, just let it rest on his eye and around it, it will actually help soften and loosen debris and yucky pus crust
I got the metacam, I'm talking bout the abs, never been good at deciphering the percentage into mg/ml


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## altgirl35

Metacam is twice a day, about 12 hrs apart
I knew we had a big time difference just couldn't remember which way it went
When I went to London it was very strange to take that big jump in time


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## BHenderson

I can see more clearly now your time and my time corrected, so I can see its the end of your day and the middle of mine. It helps to know when you are unlikely to reply because your in bed lol.

Your not the only one who has problems converting to mg/ml values, people are always trying to work it out. I don't know why they don't put it on the bottle. I think I will stick to the 3 drips per bird that I have been recommended as the infection has gone down a lot so it must be working. It still smells 'pussy' but I think that is because the burnt skin has formed a cap over part of the head and there is some puss caught underneath that. Hopefully the abs(antibiotics I presume) will kill what remains of the puss over the next few days. The dead skin cap was why I thought Dermisol might be a good choice to try and remove that cap so what is underneath can heal, but you are right there is a specific warning about it irritating the eyes. I will try a cold compress when I catch her in a bit for the second dose of Metacam.

By the way, will she get drowsy on the Metacam? She keeps going to the highest perch and I am a little nervous that if she is drowsy she may fall?

As a side note, someone else suggested that a wet teabag would be a good compress? What do you think?


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## altgirl35

abluechipstock said:


> i had a homer with an eye infection, i was using the eye powder and i ordered the dr pigeon, 1 eye 1 drop 1 time, it cleared that eye up in a day, he did go blind in that eye because it took so long to get the stuff but he's doing fine now, if i would have had it here when i needed it he wouldn't be blind


was wondering what drug was in this, i tried looking it up, found it, but it doesn't say what the ingredients are


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## altgirl35

actually i just got up a little while ago its 7:37 am right now, yes tea bag would be good too, also make it warm, i'm going to go see what i can find in my rehab books sometimes they list what it is and how to dose in them
my vet is on vacation so i can't ask him sadly


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## altgirl35

oh! it's baytryl, this is it right???
http://www.animalhealth.bayerhealthcare.com/5296.0.html


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## altgirl35

okay, so that makes it 100 mg/ml
so dose 0.04 twice daily


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## BHenderson

Sorry I assumed everyone knew about the new cheaper form of Baytril, here is a link to the product I have:-

http://www.mercasystems.com/pigeons/index.php/enroflox-100-ml-antibiotico-de-amplio-espectro.html

The product is also named after the active ingredient.

So, if the bottle of Metacam says a drip is approx 0.017 ml, obviously there are slight differences between liquids, but 0.04ml is about 3 drips.

The difference is you are saying 2 doses a day?


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## altgirl35

altgirl35 said:


> Okay, he gets 0.05 ml twice a day, for the first dose you can give him a loading dose 0.10 ml
> One thing you need to know before dosing metacam is that he is hydrated, if you think he is dehydrated at all hydrate him first


this is the metacam dose, he gets 0.05 ml twice a day


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## altgirl35

altgirl35 said:


> okay, so that makes it 100 mg/ml
> so dose 0.04 twice daily


and this is the baytryl dose, 0.04 twice daily


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## altgirl35

can you go to the chemist/pharmacy and get a 1 ml syringe? what works even better for measurement is a insulin syringe, i'm not sure if how accurate a drip/drop is going to be


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## BHenderson

So I am dosing both medicine twice a day. Metacam 0.05 ml *2 and Enroflox 0.04 ml *2


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## BHenderson

Sorry I did not see your other post, yes that is the dose you are suggesting for both medicines.

I am going to pop out for a bit to see if I can get an insulin syringe. Be back soon.


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## altgirl35

BHenderson said:


> So I am dosing both medicine twice a day. Metacam 0.05 ml *2 and Enroflox 0.04 ml *2


yup! you got it


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## BHenderson

can you answer the question about drowsiness? do I need to keep an eye on Frazzle to watch she does not fall off her perch or fly into something?


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## altgirl35

oh and about the sleepy thing with the metacam, he should be fine, he may be a bit calmer but not stoned, it's like if you take ibuprofen


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## altgirl35

you may want to isolate her in a cat kennel or something like that,, line it with cozy fleece, she may appreciate having a heating pad on low under the cage too


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## BHenderson

Ok thats great.

Thank you very much for your help altgirl35, I am now more confident about the medicine I am giving 'Frazzle'.

I will keep you informed about how things heal up over the next few days. Obviously if there are any changes for the worst I will message straight away.

Thanks again.


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## altgirl35

when you go to the pharmacy, ask them if they have any eye antibiotic ointment or drops


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## altgirl35

altgirl35 said:


> when you go to the pharmacy, ask them if they have any eye antibiotic ointment or drops


hit the infection from the inside and the outside


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## BHenderson

I just though I would let you know what happened altgirl35,

I gave Frazzle the Metacam first, then the abs. Finally I took a used teabag that was body temperature and held it gently against the eye. I was surprised that Frazzle soon settled down and I sat there for about 10-15 mins gently holding it against the eye. It must provide some kind of relief otherwise she would have continued to try to escape.

Lastly I was able to find some Fucidic acid cream. Fucidic acid is used in antibiotic eye drops, but because I have a cash flow problem at the moment I am unable to buy the drops. I decided the cream was better than nothing. After the teabag, the eye looks a bit tender and swollen but more like an eye than it did before. I spread a little cream onto the clean side of the teabag, and gently held it against the eye again. It seemed to work well because when I took the teabag away the cream was all over the swollen part of the eye, and Frazzle did not seem to find it a problem.

I want to thank you for pushing me to try a compress against the eye, left to my own devices I would have said the eye looked too sore to do that, but Frazzle obviously found it soothing and it did seem to help clean a little dirt off. Hopefully the Metacam will now allow her to have a pain free night of sleep.

Thank you again,
Brian.


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## amyable

Hello Brian,

Good to hear from you again!!

Have been catching up with your latest rescue story. Great job by altgirl in helping you along with this. Quite a nasty case.
I'm so glad you've done the warm compress too. I was going to encourage you to try it as well if you hadn't done so as it sounded as if it really helped the crow altgirl was talking about and I could imagine if I had a sore eye that's what I'd try.
I had a Collared Dove a couple of years ago that had a terribly swollen eye that looked like just a mass of blood. I really didn't hold out much hope of it being able to see again but it did heal beautifully and it was able to be released.
I used Colloidal Silver to bathe it but sadly that's very expensive to buy. Can't beat the old tea bag!!
Wish you luck with this and will follow it's progress.

Janet


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## altgirl35

awwww, musta felt good to her
is the fucidic cream okay for the eye???


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## BHenderson

Hi Janet, its been a while since I've been back here. My life is a bit of a mess at the moment and I have found it hard to keep all my contacts going. Its nice to know there are people here who are willing to help with a wounded bird if ever I feel out of my depth, and I am grateful for that.

Some things have changed since I last visited, for instance Squeaker and some of the other birds are allowed to come and go as they please. Someone told me that if I use some weak sticky tape to tie up their first 8-10 feathers on each wing, I can then let them out in the garden as long as I keep an eye on them. After three days I did not put any sticky tape on and allowed them to fly away on their own. They all, including Squeaker, found their way back. They now come and go as they please. They stand by the door if they want to go out, and I open it for them. When they come back I can see them through the glass and let them in. I feel much happier that they are choosing to come back rather that being a prisoner in here. Obviously I can not do this with new injuries(or the occasional very young looking baby that I take in) and I do not start to let them out until I am sure they can look after themselves.

Altgirl35 yes it appears it gave Frazzle some real relief from her injury. I am getting ready to give her a second dose of Enroflox and Metacam, but I am wondering if to do the whole teabag thing again, so that would be twice a day. What do you think?

I have another little problem with Squeaker, I have been giving him a dose of Enroflox because he has had diarrhoea for a few days and is showing signs of feeling under the weather. The thing is he does not like the taste of Enroflox, and he struggles when I give it to him. Last night he started coughing during the night and some of the Enroflox must have gone down the wrong hole. Is there any way I can give it to him without the danger of it choking him. I have no one to show me these things hands on because I do not live close to other pigeon people. Maybe there is a way I can make it more palatable?

I nearly caught a baby starling that looked unwell earlier. Instead of having the dark colouring of normal starlings he/she was very light coloured, so I am assuming that is the colouring of the babies. The baby look sleepy like it was having trouble staying awake, its eyes looked droopy. It also was holding up one of its feet. It let me get real close, and I was putting things down to try to catch it but it flew up to a tree, but it is definitely not well. If I spot it later I will try to catch it with my net. Once I get it home I will have to post here again as I have not had experience with birds other than pigeons.

I will let you all know how the eye looks on Frazzle when I check her, I am hoping it will look better after having the Fucidic acid cream on.


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## Miss-Sassypants

Hi Brian, thank you for caring for the little bird. I hope Frazzle recovers soon. Sending healing thoughts your way!


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## altgirl35

yes, i would do the med dosing and compress her eye all at the same time, may even wanna throw in a another mid day compresss if you have time for it
if you have a 1ml syringe you can put it down their throats pretty far, could also add a tube to extend it longer 
yeah baytril is nasty tasting, i don't find that it bothers the birds much, mammals hate it


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## BHenderson

Thank you Miss-Sassypants, Frazzle certainly needs all the healing prayers she can get. Its a nasty looking injury and I still have doubts that it will not involve a visit to a vet at some point.

Altgril35, I have just finished with Frazzle again with the compress, and again she sat there and let me hold the teabag over her eye without struggle. She blinked often and the whole injury is obviously very tender and feels sore.
Once the compress had been on for about 10 mins, I took another look at the eye and I could see something moving under whatever is covering the eye. I can not tell what the covering is, if it is something foreign to the body or if the body has grown a thin layer of skin over the injury. I need to get a high res photo up of what the eye looks like after the compress, but a lot of detail is lost by the forums way of reducing the size of the photo. The original photo from the beginning of this thread is much clearer, but quality was lost when uploading it to the forum. I will see if I can get a clear photo of what this injury looks like now put up without loss of clarity.
I did try to gently rub the surface of the eye with the teabag, and she did not pull away as if this was hurting, but I could not clear any of the gunk. I have put a nice covering of the Fucidic acid cream over the eye after the compress so it does not dry out and controls the infection. As I said before there is an obvious cap of dead skin and other gunk that is covering quite a bit of the head and did have puss under it. This is going to take a while to heal and I will have to keep giving her Enroflox until the skin comes away and the top of the injury can dry. It looks ok for now, but when I did stop giving the Enroflox after the first 7 days treatment the injury soon got out of control with the infection and puss blowing up very quickly.

Just another little matter that I need advice on. I though Squeaker was coughing after I had given him Enroflox because I was aware that he had diarrhoea and was acting unwell, however I now think he is coughing for another reason. He also had clear fluid droppings with just a little solid matter in and no whites. Any advice on what this might be? He seems in reasonable spirits and even still wants to go out sometimes, but he is not as active as he normally would be. Any ideas?

P.s. I did ask the local pharmacist about using the Fucidic acid cream instead of drops, and he said it was not ideal but would not hurt.

P.p.s. All my pigeons are starting to 'sneeze'. Do pigeons catch colds? Do I have a cold spreading amongst my pigeons? is there a cure?


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## altgirl35

i would keep going with the compresses,make it on the wet side
his nictating membrane is probably stuck shut, birds have a 3rd eyelid, it's very thin and delicate, so don't force it
good to know the eye is moving under there, maybe there is a chance she has a viable eye under there
i think you should start a new post for the other birds
but i would check the throat on squeaker n see if there is any canker in there, i would start flagyl in any case even if it isn't that, it help with gi issues too


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## altgirl35

here's more info on the eyelid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nictitating_membrane


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## BHenderson

I figured the coughing and sneezing problem. After chasing Squeaker around the room I had knocked some dust up in the air, thats why they all started coughing. I did not figure it until they all stopped coughing, I then realised it was something temporary.

The thing about the nictating membrane is interesting, as it looked like there was something moving under a layer of skin. It could be like you say, that although this membrane is stuck shut the eye underneath may not have been as badly damaged as I first thought. Lets hope for the best, she is at a real disadvantage without it.

By the way, I noticed you keep using 'he', do you think it is a male? I thought it was female because of its build and smaller head, maybe you know better?


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## BHenderson

Thank you for the link. I think that is what has happened, the eye is able to move under a stuck shut membrane. I will take a closer look in the morning when I bathe the eye again.
I hope it is true, it will be fantastic if she still has an eye.

I will switch Squeaker to Flagyl first dose tomorrow and see how things develop. I feel better giving part of a tablet, I have been nervous giving fluids ever since someone told me they nearly choked their bird to death by giving the fluid incorrectly.


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## BHenderson

altgirl35, I was just reading over the advice from the beginning again and I realised that I never started the Flagyl with Frazzle. It was suggested earlier that I give her both abs. I'm not the most organised person as you have probably worked out by now lol. Should I add Flagyl to Frazzles treatment from tomorrow?


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## altgirl35

I have no idea on the sex, I just don't like calling them it's!
I noticed I was using he and u were using she, so I keep trying to remember to use she
I usually give em flagyl if I have to dose them with something else
That way I don't have to delay release if canker rears its ugly head mid treatment, it's so common with the wilds, especially when they are under stress, and it's easy and safe to use


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## BHenderson

I only treat a small number of birds, and I have only been doing it about a year, but I have yet to see a case of canker! I will check all the birds as I get a chance, but either canker is not as common as I thought it was, or I have been really lucky with the pigeons I have taken in.

Thank you for your help altgirl35, it has been invaluable to me and Frazzle.


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## altgirl35

No problem, I like helping, especially when things are quiet here
I only have an injured juvenile herring gull and a crow and they are not babies so after cleaning, feeding and medicating I'm pretty much free
But it is spring so it can change at at moment and my online mission will be neglected


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## BHenderson

I just thought I would let you know that as soon as I had finished the morning compress and medication with Frazzle, she scratched off a big part of the cap of hard skin on her head. It looked pink and obviously was bald. I had given her the Metacam so hopefully it would have eased any pain she caused herself. I was worried because there was little flecks of blood around her head and it looked a bit raw, so I caught her again and applied some of the Fucidic acid cream to the whole area with a warm teabag. I hope this will stop the raw skin underneath from getting infected. She is sleeping now so I hope there is not too much pain. I will carry on as normal but I will maybe put a little cream on the raw skin until it does not look so raw. It seems to have removed some of the debris covering the eye, so hopefully it has done good. The eye looks like there might be a little dirt that has got past the nictating membrane, but we will see with time.


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## altgirl35

Sounds like a nice big step forward! Keep on keepin on!


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## BHenderson

Just a report in....

I gave some extra vitamins in water before giving medicine just to make sure she is getting enough water. Its important that her kidneys have enough fluid to cope with all the different medicines.
I can now see the nictating membrane clearly moving over what remains of the eye. The eye is red and obviously sore, and there appears to be a lump of something stuck to it. its not dirt, it looks like a lump of puss. When I picked her up this morning the eye had been weeping overnight and there was a lump of congealed fluid coming out of the eye. I was going to use the compress on the eye, but she pulled away, so I think it is too sore at the moment for the compress. I cleaned it up the best I could and put some Fucidic acid cream on the eye as it looks like it could get infected easily. I hope it continues to improve and that the abs continue to hold off any infection getting a hold.

P.s. the ear is now exposed, I dont know if that is anything I need to worry about?


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## altgirl35

She probably has an ulcerated cornea, poor girl 
No worries about the ear, she must have just lost the feathers that normally cover it
Sounds like things are improving for her
Can she close and open her eyelid now?


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## BHenderson

Um I think she can almost close it. I can see the third eyelid moving clearly now, but it is very red maybe even bloody. I think swelling is preventing the eye from closing properly but it is certainly looking more normal even if a bit sore.

I was worrying that she is sore, and if maybe to give another dose of Metacam at night. Is there a way to tell if she is still in pain?

She is looking very alert for this time of night, maybe the pain is keeping her awake. I am leaning on the side of an extra dose of Metacam rather than her being sore all night. What do you think?


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## altgirl35

I wouldn't just 2 doses a day, maybe dose her at 10 in the morning and 10 at night
Poor baby. Eye injury's hurt
Can you take another pic? I would like to see if it looks any different from the last pic


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## altgirl35

Birds are masters at disguising illness and injury
Just try to imagine how it would feel to you to have your eye in that condition
They feel pain same as we do, they just hide it better
They need to to survive in the wild, if they look injured, sick or weak. They become food
So they hide it as long as they can


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## BHenderson

I noticed it is drying out a bit, so does not look so bad. I'm not surprised she was looking a little sore, I remembered that when I last put some cream on I forgot to give the Metacam, so she was due another dose anyway. Its made me feel better as well as I just felt the poor dear was in pain.
I will take a new picture in the morning so I can take advantage of the daylight. It does look a lot different, you will see.


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## Jaye

Ulcerated corneas can be treated and stabilized, if not permanently healed. I have dealt with that before with the aid of a very good avian opthamologist. 

Looking forward to the photos...you are doing a great job and you are in good hands w/ AG.


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## BHenderson

I tried to take close up shots of the wound, but for some reason they just come out blurred(cheap camera lol).
From the pictures above you get a pretty good idea of what the eye looks like now. You can also see the exposed ear below the eye. The other picture is from round the back of the pigeons head, so you can see how much skin came away. The skin was dead so it had to come off, its just a pity it came off so soon, as it looked really sore.

I gave both abs today, and some Metacam. I did not use a compress as I am not sure it is necessary any more. The red skin was wet initially and it would be less open to infection if it dried out, as it is doing. I did not put any Fucidic acid cream on the eye either as the eye may manage on its own. Remember I do not have the drops, I have the cream. I do not think it is good to keep putting the cream in the eye if it is not necessary. I need a prescription if I want Fucidic acid eye drops. I might be able to buy them on the internet , but only if necessary because money is tight at the moment.

Frazzle and Squeaker have started mating, and Squeaker is trying to attract Frazzle to his box. This is surely a good sign, as Frazzle must be feeling reasonably well to be interested in mating?

If you need clearer pictures, I will take them from a greater distance, but the wound will look smaller. I don't mind if you need the photos for diagnostic purposes.

By the way, before anyone asks, yes I did press the button for close up pictures and they still came out this bad lol. Its just a cheap camera, sorry.


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## altgirl35

I see an eye! I think I see an eye! Do i see an eye? Lol
Weird how he has lost so much feathering on his head
Looks tight, can he shut his eye?
What about normal saline drops for his eye to help keep it moist?


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## altgirl35

Has he wanted to take a bath?


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## Jaye

Yipes...that's such a nasty condition there.

Can you get Gentamycin drops ? I sorta agree with you...applying cream directly to that eye area, I would not be inclined to do so, either....

I have seen 'flayed' head areas heal up nicely before. May end up with a permanent bald patch, but as long as it is kept clean it has a decent chance of healing up....


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## BHenderson

I dont think the eye is as tight as it looks. I can see the second eylid moving and it does not look hindered.
I will have another go at photos tomorrow, it must be possible for me to get a clearer picture than this.

I'll ask my pharmacist about Gentamycin drops and see if I can get them without prescription.

I took the fact that Frazzle was taking an interest in Squeaker as a good sign, she cannot feel that bad can she?

She hovers around the bath when I put it out, but I think she is being careful not to get in any struggles. I imagine it would hurt a lot if one of the others tried to peck her.

I have some creams at home that were given me by the doctor for my eczema, things like Oilatum. Maybe I could use these to moisturise the pigeons new skin to avoid any tightness that might be developing?


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## altgirl35

I'm not sure about the eczema cream
If her skin seems too dry, how about some lube? You know the stuff you find next to the condoms  
Works good on wounds we don't want to dry out, is gentle, sterile and water based so it won't gunk up his feathers too much


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## Jaye

With creams, stay away from anything which is oil-based, because that will gunk up feathers .

I would agree with AG that at most, just a very mild, water-based lubricant (although, in THAT aisle... personally I favor silicone to water based ...but certainly NOT for birds)....

Is your concern that you don't want the remaining skin to dry out ? There are safe, non-oil-based topicals for birds available online (HealX Soother Plus, for example).

Also, unclear on whether you are allowing this one unfettered access to the other Pigeons and vice-versa. If you are...I wouldn't. Poor thing has been thru so much already, you don't wanna chance her/him getting picked on right now....


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## BHenderson

Rather than being picked on, she is doing rather well at defending her corner. Apart from Gayser, who has become very much a bully of late, she has been fighting the other females away from Squeaker. They are definitely hooking up now and are going through the mating routine. I am surprised that the face wound did not put Squeaker off. Its got to be a good sign that she feels well enough to engage in mating.

I was able to get some drops for the eyes today, Chloramphenicol based. I hope they will do the trick until I can afford some better medicine.

I will have another go at photos in a bit and post them up. I need to let you see they eye better.

Can I just ask, is that for sure about the Lube, I have a pound shop round here that sells it and if it will help her then I will go now and get some. Is it definitely the right thing to get?


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## BHenderson

View attachment 23619


Close up of the eye. I am less confident now that there is an eye remaining. The open eye is full of sticky thick liquid which I am concerned will get infected. I have used the drops I mentioned before to try and stop any infection, but it says on the bottle that they are to be applied every 2 hours. I don't fancy catching Frazzle every 2 hours lol. I will see how often I can manage.

View attachment 23620


Here is the full picture from which I took the first picture. You can see how much skin has come away.

View attachment 23621


This is to show round the back of the head so you can see how much damaged skin there is. This is after the dead skin has come away, so the damage was very deep. I hope it is starting to heal now.

Sorry it took me so long to get these pictures, I had to have several go's before I could get a picture that was in focus but showed enough detail.


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## Jaye

Them's pretty good visuals.

Is that his skull we see where the dead skin sloughed off, or more tissue/skin ?

I would recommend keeping him in a cage/box for at least now until morning...this way you can give the eyedrops and catch easily. Every 2 hours ? I understand why,. but I would say maybe do it twice more tonight, let the poor fella/gal sleep, and then get back to it tom'w AM....even every 4 hours tom'w would be good. Close lights completely when you are gonna catch him from the cage/box. It is quite easy and not stressful for the Pigeon.

It is so hard to tell, from the pic it looks like the eyeball is still there, but it is the lower lid which is messed up. Whether there is vision, who knows ?

Are the drops an antibiotic drop ? (apologies I am not going to go back and read through the thread if you already mentioned).

You say Frazzle can close and open the lids When "open", have you tried shining a flashlight into it and see if there's any reaction ?

I gotta say, BH...it looks hella gnarly...but also, hella better than it did at the beginning of the thread. At this point you are doing right; main concern is keeping infection at bay so some healing can go on.

Is he/she still on an oral antibiotic as well ?


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## altgirl35

It sure does look better, too bad it wasn't an eye I thought I was seeing in the previous pix , poor guy
I would keep her in a kennel if she was here, always keep contained when they are on meds
Just do as much as you can with the eye drops, we are just going to have to wait until the eye declares itself
Another option is to have the vet to take a peek at that eye, and if it's no good, to surgically remove it, and clean all the bad tissue out and close it up
Healing would go much faster
Progress is defiantly happening


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## Jaye

I thought I saw the eye in there....of course, a vet would have been, and still would be...the best for this. But if not, your current treatments are pretty good....


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## nicole

I've dealt with an injured eye lately, and the antibiotic drop my pigeon was prescribed was Gentamicin sulfate ophthalmic solution USP 0.3%. He was dosed one drop twice daily for about 10 days. Good luck with your bird.


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## BHenderson

I hope you realise that we are on different time systems and that is why it takes me a while sometimes to get back to you Jaye.

The injury does not go as deep as the skull luckily, Originally it looked like a lot of the surface skin had died as if it had been burned by chemicals, and after I had been using a compress on it for a couple of days a large amount of the dead skin was scratched off by Frazzle.
When the dead skin came off the underneath skin was very raw and I initially treated it with Fucidic acid cream, again to stop infection setting in. the raw skin seems to have dried out now so I have stopped using the cream. When the skin came off the eye was also uncovered a bit. Underneath the eye looked ok at first, but has become so red now I am unsure if there is an eye there. It looks like the eye may have an ulcer like altgirl35 suggested, as there is a small lump on top of the eye that moves about.

At the moment she is definitely blind on that side, I use it to gain the advantage when trying to capture her. I would not release her for this reason unless she gets some sight back in that eye, as a cat could just as well use it to his advantage.

I am continuing the double abs of Enroflox(Baytril) and Flagyl at the suggestion of altgirl35, and I would not stop them until the eye looks less open to infection.

The drops are antibiotic as well and I only got them yesterday. I am reluctant to isolate her as she has started to mate with Squeaker. She has had such a hard time I do not want to take this little pleasure away from her. She is getting better at letting me handle her(a lot better than Squeaker who I have had for almost a year!) and I will try and give the drops every 4 hours. That seems a reasonable compromise.

One thing that does worry me is there still looks to be burn marks on the fresh skin, you can see them in the third picture on the back of the neck. I think these are chemical burns of some kind, and I am worried about how the skin will react to this and if it will heal ok over time.

I am keen to get second opinions and advice, as I feel this is a tricky wound and I am only into my first year of treating pigeons. I would hate to do anything wrong.

Thank you,
Brian.


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## altgirl35

it will heal, how much feathering she will get back we shall see, only time will tell
you can still use the cream on the skin, just try not to get anything in the eye
if you want to skip the cream, aloe is a wonderful natural way to soothe and heal also


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## Jaye

BHenderson said:


> I hope you realise that we are on different time systems and that is why it takes me a while sometimes to get back to you Jaye.


Hello...I hope you didn't get the idea that I was somehow demanding quick replies (?) I don't believe any of that was insinuated. This is just an unusual circumstance, and I have had a little experience with avian eye injury, and I am impressed by Frazzle's resilience and your relative calmness in treating, which is why I am following your thread.


BHenderson said:


> I am keen to get second opinions and advice, as I feel this is a tricky wound and I am only into my first year of treating pigeons. I would hate to do anything wrong.


Keep in mind, again, as was suggested early on in this thread...the severity of those injuries would best be served by a vet visit. 
So, like many (if not most) threads here, in the absence of a professional avian vet exam, as to whether or not we can tell you you are doing right or doing wrong...becomes a roll of the dice. 
It may be an educated roll of the dice, because Forums like these rely on the collective experience of its members; but it is a roll of the dice nonetheless. 

A vet may have a whole arsenal of medications which are more appropriate & focused on these sort of injuries...or not. A vet may have the ability to determine if the eye can ever be saved; a vet would be able to give the proper tests to determine how Frazzle is really holding up inside and out; locate other secondary infections or maladies in other internal organs which people on a Forum, in the absence of an exam, cannot.

So, you can only get some educated opinion here, which is usually good stuff...but certainly not professional nor conclusive.


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## BHenderson

I will have another go at speaking to the vet tomorrow. The receptionist at the blue cross keeps telling me he is not available at the moment, but I will persist. I do not know yet if he has any experience with avian medicine, or if he is willing to spend time looking at a pigeons. I have not had good responses from other vets re pigeons, but I will keep trying until I know for sure if he will have a look at Frazzle or not.

P.s. I just noticed that it had taken me a while to reply to your mail Jaye, it was not that I thought you were demanding a reply.


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## altgirl35

yeah, vets usually want you to come in to talk and pay the visit fee


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## BHenderson

Do you think Frazzle will still have pain? She does not seem to respond to accidental touching of that injury? Do you think I should continue the Metacam?


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## altgirl35

ya, i would still go a little longer with it, helps with inflamation


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## Jaye

No worries, BH. I agree...keep on the Metacam a bit longer....the hope being the injuries will start looking a bit less 'angry' each day. At some point...maybe 3 weeks tops...I would try to roll back and eventually stop the Metacam and see how Frazzle reacts.

I understand the response from many a vet having no interest in a Feral. In places such as UK and here, one can usually find an avian vet who doesn't care what kinda bird their patient is as long as the client pays the fees (that wasn't a criticism, but rather a compliment).


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## altgirl35

what about rehabbers, maybe they could help you out, might be worth a try to connect with one


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## BHenderson

I tried again today at the blue cross, and they refused to treat Frazzle because she is a feral. Mind you I did not actually get to speak to the vet, who may have seen things differently. The two receptionist said it was in the rules that they don't treat ferals but I don't believe them.
They said they knew I treated ferals, but they did not want to 'encourage' me by treating the birds themselves.

I may try to get down to the RSPCA, but it is quite a bit further. I got to say things are looking better each day and the eye looks much more like an eye now. It is not swollen out of shape and they eyelid is now moving properly with the one on the good side. It still looks like there might be a tiny bit of puss in the eye, but that is probably because I am not applying the drops often enough. The skin still looks rough but is no longer red and sore looking. I did go and get the aloe vera gel 'bio active skin treatment' and I have used it on a dry and sore part of my own elbow. If it does for her face what it did for my elbow then she will be better in no time. I am amazed at how much may elbow has healed up after just a couple of applications.
I will apply the gel every time I give the medicine. She does not like taking all the different medicines but is not protesting so hard that it indicates it is hurting her so much. I try to comfort her as much as possible so she does not panic when I try to catch her.
Squeaker was courting her the other day, but when I went outside to look at a pigeon with a bad leg, he flew out. He does this often and usually comes back in a couple of days once he gets hungry enough, but I did feel sorry for Frazzle. She tried to carry on the mating behaviour without him there and I felt awful for letting him out. I hope he comes back soon and they continue where they left off.

All in all, the injury looks a lot less serious and I am more confident that we are getting somewhere. I am happy to continue they way we are for now, but if things get difficult again I may seek more professional help.


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## altgirl35

Sounds good, can't wait to see how she progress's
Good job on helping her get better!


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## John_D

BHenderson said:


> I will have another go at speaking to the vet tomorrow. The receptionist at the blue cross keeps telling me he is not available at the moment, but I will persist. I do not know yet if he has any experience with avian medicine, or if he is willing to spend time looking at a pigeons. I have not had good responses from other vets re pigeons, but I will keep trying until I know for sure if he will have a look at Frazzle or not.


Vets who will look at pigeons are not easy to find, but look for LONDON and maybe MIDDLESEX on these. Certainly the guy at Raynes Park is good.

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/veterinaryresources.htm


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## Jaye

Wow, that's a great list...I believe I have seen that here before, too....


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## BHenderson

Thank you Jonn D for that list. The Raynes Park place is within an hours journey from me.

Frazzle is doing ok at the moment, and I do not feel such an urgent need to see a vet. If things get worse and the injury is not getting better then I will take her to Raynes Park.

Again, Thank you for the information.

Brian.


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## amyable

Hi Brian, Retief, the vet that Jayne uses at Raynes Park is out of the country for a while but I think the vet in charge will still treat pigeons.
Trouble is I think he charges more but worth knowing in an emergency.

Glad Frazzle seems to be showing signs of having a useful eye under there.
Keep fingers crossed. You're doing a great job.

Janet


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## BHenderson

It is something I would do only as a last resort, if the wound was getting out of control in some way. The eye is looking better every day and I am hoping there may still be a viable eye there.

I got to say, in my book an animal is an animal and suffers just the same whether it is a pigeon or a human. I cannot understand the attitude of a vet who sees a wounded animal but decides not to treat it because it is not important enough. I was annoyed by the attitude of the blue cross.


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## BHenderson

I must just report, Frazzles eye has started to look like an eye again. The bit that was so red you could not tell if there was an eye there, has now become the colour of a normal eye. It looks a bit dry, and it also looks as if the nictating membrane may be stuck about one third out onto the eye. It still looks a little unclean with very faint marks on the eye, but that may clear up with time.
I have put the drops in as normal and I hope these will help lubricate the eye. I am also applying aloe vera about twice a day to the skin area that looks burn and bare. I sometimes forget about the ear 'hole' but I don't think I have pushed anything into it.

She is definitely starting to look as if she is healing.....

Brian.


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## BHenderson

I have switched back to the Fucidic acid cream. I do not think the drops are working well enough, it is probably because it needs to be put in every 2 hours to work. Its impractical for me to do that with a bird that is this nervous. I think it has been picked on on the outside because of its injury.
I know cream is not the best thing to put in the eye, but I am putting a little in the eye with lots of moisture on top of a tea bag. I think it will control the infection better, especially now it is starting to heal.


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## altgirl35

it's too bad you couldn't get anti biotic eye ointment, works so good, and you only need to do 2-3 times a day
it's an ointment so it stays in
she must be doing so much better
not sure what day you started the flagyl, but you can stop that med after 10 days, looking forward to new pics, you gotta get somebody over who has a good camera
i'm terrible at taking pics too, i have to take 20 just to get one good one
i love it when somebody comes over with a good camera that is good at taking pics


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## BHenderson

I'll see if I can borrow my fathers camera, I think his one cost a bit more so should take a better picture.
The eye is looking a lot better. Unfortunately she really does not like the Enroflox, and struggles when I try to give it to her. The problem is she often rubs the bad side of her head against my hand when she does this. I try to make sure my hands are disinfected, but I got a feeling this is why she still has some infection in the eye. The eye also still looks a little dry, but it is looking better each day. She is still blind on that side so I dont know what will happen in the long run.
She has shown some signs of wanting to leave, and I am trying to make an area in the garden porch where I can let them out without them escaping. The problem might be that I have two domineering males that have eggs and will not let anyone land on the floor for long. I don't know if she will stay long term, I certainly am not going to make her a prisoner. For now she still has some healing to do, so we will see what happens.
As for antibiotic ointment, I think it is harder to get in the uk without a prescription. I think I may take her to the RSPCA when I feel a little better myself.
Unfortunately I have the council on my back again because people in my estate are complaining that I am feeding the birds, despite the fact we are on the river front and the estate is full of wildlife anyway. I really do despair at peoples attitudes to nature. I am trying to find a lawyer who knows something of the law regarding pigeons, as I am given to believe the councils position is not as strong as they portray. We will see what happens.


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## amyable

I'm sorry to hear you're still having neighbour problems Brian.
I did wonder when you said you let them come and go if the folks that caused you the problems a while ago would rear their ugly heads again.
What a shame as you don't want to put your home at risk as it sounds lovely where you're located by the river and you can do so much good from there.

I'm pleased to read the ongoing progress with the eye, I really hope she can end up with some vision from it.

Janet


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## BHenderson

I am planning with my brother to build and extension to the garden porch that I will be able to let the pigeons out onto. I will have herbs growing inside the enclosure and possibly have an area that has grass growing. As we are able to afford it we will extend it further until they have a proper little play area. The stuff to start building it was ordered yesterday and I hope it will be harder for them to complain about something that keeps the pigeons within the garden. We also need to paint the floor in the front room to make it easier to clean, but the paint has a strong solvent in it so we need to be able to put the birds outside while it is drying.
Personally I think if the matter did go to court, it would be hard for them to prove that I am causing any damage. I am going to avoid court if I can though. I need to get myself on an official footing, I need to work towards getting a qualification in helping wildlife, so it can be seen I am not just feeding the birds but dealing with their illnesses. I find it hard to just watch birds that are ill and struggling, and if I am told to do this it is going to cause me great difficulty. Ultimately it is going against my very nature to ignore an animal that is in trouble, I just hope it does not come to that.

Anyway on other matters, here is the latest photo of Frazzle :-

View attachment 23696


As you can just about see the eye is looking much more like an eye. It appears to have a thick liquid over the eye but I do not think it is infected, I think it is a natural healing process and I do not want to wipe it away in case it is helping heal the eye. I have not put any more cream on the eye although I am still putting the aloe vera on the skin.
She is quite but does come down from the perch in the mornings and eats and drinks a little. I would like to see her eat more, and the water has probiotics and vitamins in it. She often goes back up to the perch earlier than the others and sits with her good eye looking out on the room. I hope she it ok. I finally got my Harkers 3-in-1 pills the other day that treat for worms, canker and coccidiosis in one, and I am wondering if to give her one just to be sure she is not suffering from one of these. On the other hand I do not want to over-medicate her.
Before the summer gets going properly here I was thinking of giving all the pigeons a 3-in-1 and a dose of Ivermectin 1% under their feathers so that they are protected from insects in the summer. I may include her in that dosing. I have a couple of pigeons with green droppings but it does not seem to be affecting them in any other way, in fact all my pigeons are forming couples. Unfortunately Farzzle was pairing with Squeaker, and Squeaker went out and has not returned yet. What a pity as she has not paired with anyone else yet. I do need to look out for another male as I have too many females at the moment. I tend to see less sick birds in the summer, we shall see.


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## altgirl35

there is always gonna be rotton apples in a bunch, i hate people! lol
anyways, eye still looks infected to me, keep goin with the baytril


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## Jaye

Gentamicin or Gentamicin Sulphate drops...or something with that as the active ingredient....you really cannot get that OTC or online in UK ? You can get it online here, sans prescription; quite cheaply, too.

I think that is really the stuff you need to go with here, if you are not going to do a Vet visit.

Regarding neighbors, yes hang in thereas your defense sounds quite good and keep in mind that in such instances, people get all in a huff but it peaks and wanes most of the time.

I think at this point it is GOOD Frazzle has not paired up with anyone. It certainly sounds like she/he is better...but I do agree with AG, there's still something which has not cleared yet.....

...keep up the good work and really try to get that Gentamicin...that may be the ticket, here.


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## BHenderson

Whenever I try to look up Gentamicin to buy in the uk, I get redirected to a pharmacy in Canada. I don't think I am going to be able to get it in the UK.
I will try to take her to the local RSPCA, but the local Blue Cross refused to treat her so I am not sure what kind of reception I will get.
In the mean time I am going to try and continue to put a little of the Fucidic acid cream in the eye, as Fucidic acid drops are often used to treat eye infections.


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## altgirl35

this is what i use, mbe u can find it online in the uk
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9652


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## Quazar

Brian, I really dont think you'll get a good response from the RSPCA.
Based on experiance i've had with them, they really dont look on pigeons, wood pigeons & doves as wild and do very litte for an injured bird apart from PTS. 
Ive actually just watched a prog on ITV (Animal 999) where they were called to a situation with a Pigeon trapped in a common stairwell. They chased the bird wth a large net, eventually caught it coz the bird was exhausted & terrified, then they took it to a park some miles away & released it. (The reason they took it to the park was so that it was far enough away not go back, even though they metioned its homing ability ??? shows how much they know).
A second incident involved a ringneck dove that had been caught by a cat.
serious back damage, although there have been far worse on here & a bird has survived. When the officer looked at it, (before even examining it properly) she said & it wasnt going to make it. No attempt to save, just descision to PTS.

Maybe try under Cidomycin or Genticin as they are Brand names here


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## BHenderson

I found this?

http://www.ecovetshop.co.uk/clinagel-vet-eye-gel-85-p.asp

I'm not sure if I will be able to order it, but it looks like I just have to fill in a form.

Alternatively, I can continue with Fucidic acid cream, putting a little on the surface of the eye. She does pull away when I do this, but if I do it gently with a tea bag it does stay on.

I did expect the RSPCA would be no better than the Blue Cross. If I am prepared to pay for the medicine I do not see what the problem is. I could not believe the woman in the clinic who said they 'did not want to encourage me'. I think they need to be encouraged to develop some empathic feelings!!!!

Its a pity I cannot make up a solution with one of the antibiotic tablets/capsules I have. I have quite a few different antibiotics and I'm sure one of them must be water soluble. If I could make a solution I could use a dripper to drop it in the eye?


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## Jaye

Well...it says it's a Gentamycin alternative....so, I dunno...maybe.


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## BHenderson

I have been reading around, and it seems its possible to make up an eye drop formulation of enrofloxacin at 0.5%. Anybody know how to do this? This at least would be a stronger antibiotic option than putting Fucidic acid cream in the eyes. If anyone knows anything about enrofloxacin eye drops please let me know.


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## altgirl35

i have no idea how to do that, no recipe online?


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## BHenderson

The eye is looking much better. She is still blind on that side, but the eye is looking like an eye(although small for some reason?) and I have stopped putting the Fucidic acid cream in the eye. I have also stopped using the Metacam as the bottle is almost finished anyway. I am going to try and get some more in case I ever come across another bird that is in pain.
It still looks like there might be an ulcer or something on the surface of the eye, but the eye look much cleared after the last dose of Fucidic acid and I want to see if it will stay clear of its own accord. I have read that regular vitamin intake is important to help Frazzle's body heal the ulcer, so I continue to put the vitamin and probiotic formula in the water every day. I do think all the birds are benefiting from this as I have noticed improvements in all their droppings. I am going to give them all a dose of the Harkers 3-in-1 as I still have a couple of pigeons that have slimy droppings, and I think it is better to treat them all once that risk them giving it to each other later.

I will try to post a photo soon showing that the eye is now much clearer, I hope it stays that way and continues to heal.


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## altgirl35

if the cream is helping go a bit longer, stopping and starting will delay healing 
can't wait to see pics


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## BHenderson

I did not know whether to post this in the forum or not, but others I have asked seem to think it is ok.
This website appears to provide Metacam, and only requires the ticking of a couple of boxes and a description of the animal it is intended for :-

http://www.ecovetshop.co.uk/metacam-05-mgml-oral-solution-for-cats-3ml--15ml-1386-p.asp

I hope this is useful for people like myself who have had trouble getting Metacam.


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## Jaye

Always useful...hey, where's the latest photo you promised ?


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## BHenderson

I was just giving it a couple of days as the eye is getting better each day. I will try to catch her tonight and take the photo. She has some very sweet habits, she crawls up my jumper into the crook of my neck when she sees the teabag because she does not want me to do it ...aah lol. I think the eye is still looking clear so I am not going to do it if it is not necessary. If her own defences are starting to take over then that is better than any medicine we can give her. I think the healthy diet and vitamins and probiotics are doing more than the antibiotics at the moment. I wish I could get her to eat something green though, she does not like apple or lettuce or spinach or any of the greens I have tried before. I am going to grow some herbs in little pots for them but they are not ready yet.
Frazzle is letting me know she is ready to leave by the way, every morning she is flying into the windows and trying to get out. I am pretty sure if I opened the garden door for her she would leave, unlike the others. She may just want some outside time, I am still waiting for my brother to come round and help me with the extension to the garden porch that will act as a protected area for them to go outside and lay in the sun.
I would not want to release her just yet, although she is obviously bored, because the eye needs a little more healing to be on the safe side. She definitely wants to go though.

I also don't have enough males and the females(including Frazzle) are fighting over the ones I have(none of which are able to mate yet because they still do not have the coordination after PMV lol)

As an addendum, I wish she would stop throwing herself at the window, I am worried she will hurt that delicate eye of hers!!!! any ideas how I might discourage her from doing this?


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## BHenderson

View attachment 23825



I have put a lot of brightness on the photo so you can see the same things as me. They eye looks a little red but is much cleaner than it has been for a long time. It actually looks like an eye. The eye has had no medication for about 2 days. The black part of the eye looks to me like the third eyelid coming in from the side and stuck in place? what do you think?


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## altgirl35

i can't tell really, but it looks much better


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> I wish she would stop throwing herself at the window, I am worried she will hurt that delicate eye of hers!!!! any ideas how I might discourage her from doing this?


Either keep her confined, or hang a net curtain about a foot in front of the window, that way she'll hit net first & no impact. I would be wary about letting her fly till the eye actually clears better. 
Her eye is now looking a bit like Bouncers did when I first found him.
His did clear eventually although he cannot see 100% out of that eye & it does slightly affect his judgement when flying & landing. 
How is her landing in general ? can she judge distance etc, bear in mind also, that if she cannot see relatively well out of the injured eye, she will be at a serious disadvantage to predators if released.


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## BHenderson

I can use her blind side to catch her, so I am pretty sure she cannot see from that eye. Hopefully that will change with time. I agree the eye still has some healing to do, but you know what pigeons are like, as soon as they feel ok they want to go. She was quite happy to stay at the beginning, like she new she needed to get better. Now the whole thing is probably not that sore any more, and she can see the other pigeons flying around outside, she feels ready to go and is letting me know. I agree that she is going to be at a disadvantage with that bad eye, but she feels differently. There is a chance she may settle with one of the males, but there is a lot of competition as I have about twice as many females as males. We will see how things develop. I am very pleased that she is feeling better. Whoever put those chemicals where this pigeon was perching should feel shame for what they did. I am pretty convinced this was done as a way to stop pigeons perching.


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## Jaye

OK, so you would be putting her into your loft...not releasing ? That is good. I think a one-eyed Pigeon does fine in a closed-loft situation.

I agree with Quazar....given her condition in an open-loft or Feral flock situation.....she won't last very long out there at all. 

My recollection being that she is a youngster, pretty young when you found her....so, besides the battle with her injuries, and the permanent handicap of the eye...we also dunno if she had ever really acclimated to the Feral world. So, it is the sort of situation where one should consider the Bird a new fledgling, as far as Feral experience goes. But add to that her disability...and her odds would not be good, even if she finds a nice strong mate. It'd be a lot of effort and love put into her rehab for a pretty hard and likely short life out there....

Quite honestly...it is a pretty brilliant recovery, considering how awful the condition of your poor friend was to begin with ! I mean, for quite a while there the area was so angry and swollen, we couldn't tell what in the world was going on. Just another example of the kind of conditions our Pigeon friends can endure.

I have no doubt she is much more comfy and happier now; and you have given her the opportunity to have a nice life. I am not sure a fully Feral life is realistic for her, though.


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## BHenderson

I think because I have always been on my own and don't have any experience with other pigeon people and how they treat their pigeons, some of my opinions are a little odd. What you say makes a lot of sense and I think she will always be vulnerable on her blind side from a cat attack etc. I don't like the feeling I'm keeping her prisoner, but I am sure this is just because I am not used to pigeons trying to escape. If I had seen this behaviour at other peoples lofts i probably would not feel the same way.

I think it is very likely she will settle with one of the males, as for some reason despite her injuries they both seem interested in her. Once she settles, she will build a nest and I will be happy that she is happy.

I agree with your assessment of the situation though, all the pain and struggle she has gone through will be for nothing if she leaves and dies outside because of her disadvantages. Shortly I will have an extended porch for them all to spend time outside, especially now the summer is coming. I hope they will all be much happier then.


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## altgirl35

i'm on the fence when it comes to blind on one side birds, i think it depends
a pigeon i would absolutely try to find a home for or keep
now for example my crow, i let her go, not sure if you ever noticed but rarely do you see one alone, so her buddies would alert her to danger
animals and birds that can take a crow down are few and far between
and on top of it, we are not allowed to keep them without an educational permit, and she was a crazy one, would have been miserable in captivity
so i only had 2 choices for her, kill her or let her go
now if i had a mourning dove i would never let a one eyed one go, everything goes after them


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## Jaye

Yes, but as you mention, Crows aren't really prey animals. That is the difference. Plus, Corvids are much more uppity and aggressive than Pigeons....

I am just saying one should not deceive themselves into thinking a one-eyed Pigeon will last very long in the Feral world, regardless of the perceived 'protection' of their flock or mate. 

Have you ever really seen a Pigeon mate drive off a predator ? They flee first, and hopefully their mate is keen enough and healthy enough to follow.....

So, if that is the decision to be made, just make it with the admission/understanding that while the handicapped Pigeon may be given a gift of returning to the life into which they were born, you are also acknowledging that in all likelihood, that gift will be very finite, and their life out there may well be much more difficult and compromised than that their flockmates' (if the flock doesn't drive them off)....


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## BHenderson

I have a better camera and I will put some pictures up tomorrow. She is looking ok and is eating, but she spends a lot of time up on the curtain rail and does not seem to want to come down and mix with the others. I don't know if she is feeling under the weather, so I will post a picture tomorrow so others can say what they think.
I have given her one of the Harkers 3-in 1, and if she has worms or Canker or Coccidiosis that should take care of it. It may be that she feels a little delicate and just does not want to join in with the rough and tumble of the other birds play. I hope she does not feel bullied. Anyway we will see tomorrow. She is a lovely little darling and I want to do all I can to help her.


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## altgirl35

i was thinking about her today wondering how she was, just didn't get much puter time today to stop and post
been crazy, started with a cat attack cardinal, then a nestling house finch, then 2 baby bunny calls, call about 3 baby squirrels then a hit by car great horned owl, been running around all day, whew i'm pooped


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## BHenderson

LOL I was not expecting immediate replies anyway. I will post a photo tomorrow and you can see better how she is looking. Like I say I am just wondering why she is being so quiet.

Anyway, your work sounds great, its good to know you are helping little creatures out. Its nice to know that not all of mankind is doing things to damage the animal kingdom.
I don't know if I told you but I have been running a little pigeon hospital from my home, and one of the ways I used to get hold of the birds that had bad legs or whatever was to encourage them to come in by offering them some food. Once they were inside I could close the door and leave them a while to settle down and not feel danger and see the other pigeons, I would then catch them and see what is wrong. If I could fix it I would, if on the couple of occasions it was too much for me I would send it to the local refuge.
Anyway, some of my lovely neighbours have complained that I am feeding the pigeons, and the council are now trying to get me to sign an agreement which if they enforced would make it impossible for me to keep my little hospital going. I am angry at this because I am not hurting anyone, and others want to enforce their ignorant attitude toward nature onto me.
I want to take what I am doing more seriously, but at the moment I am still recovering from long term illness myself. I think if I could I would start volunteering at local refuges whilst keeping my own little hospital going, unfortunately if the council gets its way I will not be able to do any of this. What I do does not interfere with them, yet if they shut down my little hospital I will be unable to teach myself the things i need to learn to work at one of these refuges.

I just really hate the idea that those in the wrong are able to force those in the right to do the wrong thing. No wonder I want little to do with the modern world.


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## altgirl35

it's hard to rehab without living in your own home where no one can tell you what to do
i started off rehabbing in a condo on the 3rd floor
i was very very very sneaky about it
i couldn't release anything from there but had help from friends with houses where they let me build pre release cages
now i rent a little house and neighbors dont mind, not that they could do anything if they didn't like it, i have all the proper permit's to do so, i'm sure my obnoxious crows that i raised and visit regularly drive em nuts at times, but my umbrella cockatoo can be heard from far away when she is going off, lol
i wish you luck, be sneaky very very sneaky


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## BHenderson

I will try to be sneaky but its hard to be sneaky and to give the birds a reasonable life. I believe there is some kind of wildlife permit over here as well and I need to find out more about it. I don't know if you have to take exams to get it, or if you get it for working at a wildlife centre. Obviously if I could get myself on some kind of official footing it would help, otherwise I'm just another guy in another house on another estate lol.


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## altgirl35

yup, you should do it
getting my permits changed everything for me
the networking with other rehabbers and vets willing to help for free 
i call on more experienced rehabbers often when i get something and im just not sure
which way to go with it
it's one of the reasons i joined this message board, to gain knowledge and get opinions from more experienced people when i'm not sure what to do for a piji
like bob last spring, his freakin beak came off, i totally flipped out and i thought i was going to have to kill him it just looked so horrible and i had been taking care of him for a while and i didn't want to do that
people on here settled me down and showed me that birds like that can live just fine as a pet, he lives with a very sweet girl and is very very loved


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## BHenderson

Altgirl35, can you tell me the name of the permit system over there. If I know the name of the American scheme, I may be able to find the equivalent UK scheme. It looks to be my best hope at the moment, so the information would be very useful.

Thanks.


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## BHenderson

View attachment 23923



View attachment 23924



As you can see above, I have blown up the top photo so you can see some detail in the eye. This is the best photo I managed to take with my dad's camera. I could not get a steady photo because poor Frazzle kept moving. You can see the eye reasonably clearly. There is still some gunk building up in the eye, but it does not look infected. I cleaned the eye with the Fucidic acid cream just to be safe, but I do not think it is infected. The eye looks a little unclean because the injury is still quite bad and has a lot of healing to do. I am not sure what to do to help it further. You can see than she is actually starting to grow some head hair back and I think her head will grow normal hair again. The ear is also still exposed.

I am a little worried about Frazzle, because she is spending a lot of time up on the curtain rail by herself. She does come down in the morning and eats and I have seen her drink but not often. She does not seem to want to spend much time with the others although she sometimes starts mating behaviour with the young male that is here. I wonder if she is still in pain and is avoiding the others so that her wound does not get touched. If the wound is still painful for her then this may be the reason she is staying up on the curtain rail.

I have not ordered the Metacam yet, as money is a little tight. If, however, you think that she might still be in pain and the Metacam would help her, then I am able to draw on some money to get it. I do not want her to be in pain, she has already been through so much and she is so young. Please let me know what you think, I will not hesitate to get Metacam if she is in pain so please let me know what you think.

Thank you.


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## BHenderson

Having had another look tonight, it may be that the fluid that is leaking from the eye may be just a little infected. I may have to keep putting the Fucidic acid cream in her eye. There are two problems with this, she does not like it unless I get the temperature just right(of the teabag lol) and I may run out of Fucidic acid cream before the eye stops weeping. I do not think the eye is going to stop weeping for some time yet, and the fluid coming out of her eye is what is getting infected. I think if the eye was dryer there would be less infection risk.
I can try to rashion what remains of the cream, but if the dose gets too small it may not do the job. Or we can hope that her own body fights the infection off. This latter may be the best option as it is so hard to control the infection(especially as I have difficulty getting appropriate drugs).
All helpful information and suggestions gratefully received,
Thank you,
Brian.

p.s. she may be aware of the infection, which is why she is staying away from the others. She is getting much easier to catch(sometimes!!!) and accepts her fate with dignity, but she hates the taste of the Enroflox and struggles violently not to take it. This just makes me feel guilty. If we have to go back to the Enroflox I will have to find a way to flavour it lol. I have a small amount of the 2.5% oral Baytril left, but it is a small amount about 3-4ml. I know Baytril is much more palatable taste wise.


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## altgirl35

i don't think birds mind sour/biter like us mammals do, she just doesn't like you messing with her and sticking something in her mouth, but it must be done
i have my massachusetts state wildlife rehabilitation permit and my U.S. fish and wildlife permit
as for her being stand off ish she must still be uncomfortable


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## BHenderson

I'm sorry I do go into a bit too much detail sometimes I know. You say she may still be a bit uncomfortable? do you think it justifies getting her another bottle of Metacam? I dont want her to be in pain?

P.s. thanks for the info on the permits!!!


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## almondman

altgirl35 said:


> i don't think birds mind sour/biter like us mammals do, she just doesn't like you messing with her and sticking something in her mouth, but it must be done
> i have my massachusetts state wildlife rehabilitation permit and my U.S. fish and wildlife permit
> as for her being stand off ish she must still be uncomfortable


I am impressed! I knew you rehabbed, but both licenses. So do they allow you to rehab almost anything that might come your way? Or do you specialize with birds?

Sorry to sidetrack the thread.


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## altgirl35

i can rehab pretty much anything i want as long as it's not endangered, then i would have to ask for permission
but i'm not set up to rehab everything, can't do large raptors, don't have a large enough pre release but i could raise a baby and hand it over to someone who has one
i'm set up for songbirds, seagulls, ducklings and small mammals
take many many birds and mammals to stabalize then transfer to someone who specializes in that particular critter
just got 4 tiny baby raccoons last week that were oh soooo cute, it was really hard to give them up, especially the little sweetest one i named romeo, but i knew the birds were going to start anytime and i was right, got my first baby on monday a tiny little house finch
living by the ocean i get all kinds of strange sea birds, half the time i have to search my books just to figure out what they are because they are not suppose to be on land
they need to go to the larger facilities that have large pools with overflow because they lose their water proofing so easily, and need to be in the water most of the time
as for the metacam i think it would help her, plus if you plan on rescuing more it is a very useful drug for pain and inflammation, one thing you will need to know is if you get a another bird that you want to dose with metacam is that you need to be sure they are not dehydrate at all before you give it


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## altgirl35

oh and i won't rehab anything anymore that can't fly over the road, couple years ago i release 9 grey squirrels, 5 red squirrels and 2 groundhogs
just about all them were hit by cars, one of the groundhogs was sooo cool, i named him buddy (the female left almost right away, i hope she is well somewhere) and he lived in my yard for months, would come out of his den when i called him and eat peanuts
i adored him
i was sitting out on my swingy thingy one morning only to hear him get hit by a car and killed, i was devastated


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## almondman

There is that downside to rehab. But, as you mentioned, knowing that many are alive and living well someplace because of your work has to be very rewarding. Thanks for responding! I'll get off the thread now.


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## BHenderson

I would say you have what some people on this forum would call the ideal job Altgirl35, I for one would love to be in a position to do what you do.

I cannot get my head round the attitude of people over here, its like they resent me spending my time on animals?!?!
I was actually asked the other day why don't I volunteer to help with the old people. If I want to help old people then I would do that, luckily in this country we are still aloud to follow our inclinations, and my inclination is to help animals. I especially want to help animals that have been harmed by people, as is very common in London. There are plenty of people who help people, whereas I have yet to meet another person who does what I do in London. There may well be people doing what I do, but so far I have been unable to find them. I sure could use the moral support of other people doing the same thing. The closest I get is coming to this forum.

Sorry, rant over. I have ordered the Metacam, and I have a tiny bit left that I was holding back for emergencies. I have ordered a bigger bottle this time so I should not run out again.
I also managed to speak to my local chemist today and asked him about diluting the Enroflox to a .5% solution and using as eye drops, and he thinks it is likely to be ok. I am going to make up the mixture shortly and try it out for a few days, and put her back on an steady Enroflox dose internally as well.
I have to get over my reluctance to force medicine if necessary. Again I am inclined to doubt myself because I have no one to confirm to me that I am doing the right thing. Luckily I have been able to find you to tell me to stop being silly lol.
I am going to practice giving the medicine as fast as possible over the next few days, so by the time she starts to struggle the medicine is already in and its all over. She is more likely to get used to this once she realised it can be over so quick. I thought she was objecting to the taste because of the way she shudders when I give it to her, but you are saying they do not really taste the bitter taste, so.....

She came down for a bath today and I have seen her eating a couple of times, so I hope their is gradual improvement. I will give the Enroflox internally and externally today as well as the remaining Metacam, and hope she does not lose her appetite again.


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## Grimaldy

"There may well be people doing what I do, but so far I have been unable to find them. I sure could use the moral support of other people doing the same thing. The closest I get is coming to this forum."--

They are undoubtedly out there BH, but for a number of reasons keep their identities closed. Keep up what you are doing and I guarantee you will run into them. Just don't be too surprised at who you meet!


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## almondman

I was lucky enough to have over 30 years working with animals in one way or another. It is very gratifying work, except for the downside of losing animals either through natural deaths, euthanasia, or stupid human interactions that cause illness or injury leading to death. 

I do know what you mean about animal work being looked down on. Both my father and brother-in-laws were/are farmers that just couldn't understand my love for pigeons, and although they both treated their farm animals well, they looked at them as profit/loss more than cuddly pets. We had some heated arguments about my work as compared to theirs. Kept life interesting!


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## BHenderson

I hope you are right Grimaldy, it would be nice to have someone to discuss rehabbing pigeons with face to face rather than over a forum. I am not criticising forums, without them I would have been truly isolated, and I would not have learned half as much. The rehabbers and vets I have met on the forums have been invaluable in helping me cope with injuries I did not know how to treat. It would just be nice to meet someone face to face for a chat, you can cover so much more ground when you are talking rather than typing.
I also understand what you mean about the attitude of farmers almondman, it is the attitude of many people that because we are going to eat animals that we need not bother to treat them humanely. In my opinion, it makes it all the more important that we treat animals that we are going to eat with respect. If an animal has a miserable life and is then killed and eaten by us, it seems to me it would not be stretching the imagination all that much to imagine that some of the misery that animal has suffered will rub off on those that consume that animal. We all know how certain diseases seem to be growing exponentially, and how that seems to coincide with the mechanisation of farming!!!!

As for Frazzle, I am really pleased with the progress. Recently she has started blinking the eye, which has stated to make it look much more normal. I suspect that the Metacam has helped the swelling and so the eye is looking more normal. Also the solution of Enroflox used as eye drops has really cleared up the eye. Whereas the Fucidic acid cream just about kept the eye clear, the Enroflox drops seem to have cleared any sign of infection at all!!!!! She is also taking and internal dose of Enroflox and no doubt this is helping as well. She is getting used to me doing it much faster as well, and I think this is by far the better method. By the time she has had time to start to struggle a lot it is all over. I spend some time comforting her after as well and she then climbs onto my shoulder and flies away. Unfortunately she seems to have attracted the attention of the young male, who has 2 females to choose from, and is canoodling and mating with him. Although she should probably not have her energy diverted into making eggs, I can't help but feel pleased for her as she had been through so much and deserves to enjoy a bit of canoodling


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## BHenderson

Things continue to improve. The diluted Enroflox drops seem to be working really well. They are obviously a lot stronger than the other drops because I cannot see any yellow in the eye at all.
Also the black mark in the eye appears to be getting smaller and smaller. The eye is blinking and is looking like and eye now rather than just a sore mess.

It will be time to post a new photo soon. I will do my best to make it viewable. I will give the eye a couple more day.

By the way, after being missing for almost 2 weeks, Squeaker came back home. Even though he upset the power balance in the house, I could not kick him out and he and Frazzle appear to be a couple again. They are already mating and although she probably does not need it right now, she is sow happy with him I cant bring myself to split them up. Unfortunately Squeaker and Son of Squeaker had a big fight over who was with Frazzle, but things have settled down a bit now and Squeaker is with her. I do feel a bit sorry for Son of Squeaker but he may go back to his original girlfriend. Frazzles a popular lady!!!!!


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## altgirl35

so glad to hear that the eye is improving! now! don't stop when you think it looks better, go an additional week after the infection looks clear to make sure it is really gone

i get the "why don't you help people" too and you know what i say?
i say there is lots of help for people, there is even a lot of help for domestic animals, NO ONE helps wildlife, so i saw a need and i filled it and it's what i'm good at
all humans do is damage them, the least i can do is help them out if they find thier way to me
you will find others like you sooner or later, especially if there is a way to get permitted


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## BHenderson

Unfortunately a bit of bad news. The company ecovet that I tried to order the Metacam from, realised that they had to ask for a prescription and wrote back to me after I had placed the order. Unfortunately I was unable to obtain a vet prescription for Frazzle because both the Blue cross and RSPCA had refused to see her. Ecovet has refunded my money and I expect to get it back any day.

I'm sorry if I gave other people hope that they would be able to order from this company. The page that I ordered from made no mention of prescriptions and I assumed the extra information they asked for allowed their vet to make a decision about the medication being ordered. I obviously got this wrong, and it has now been made clearer on their page that a prescription is needed.

Brian.


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## altgirl35

ah bummer, thats stinks


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## BHenderson

I've noticed twice now Frazzle has thrown up the Enroflox and Metacam. once in the morning when she had had it several hours before, and once tonight almost as soon as I gave it to her.
I have started going a lot faster giving her the medicine, could I be causing some air to get trapped or something? Is it just that the enroflox does not agree with her body? Maybe this is why she was so reluctant to take it in the first place?
She is still getting the eye drops and the eye still looks clear, but maybe I should stop the oral Enroflox if she is throwing it up?

P.s throughout the day she is eating with Squeaker and does not seem to have a problem with her appetite!


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## nycpigeonlady

BHenderson said:


> I've noticed twice now Frazzle has thrown up the Enroflox and Metacam.


What really helps to stop regurgitation, is giving two drops of Pepto Bismol suspension 10 minutes before giving the medications. It's sold without a prescription at every pharmacy and one bottle will last you for a lifetime of pigeon rehabbing. This was advice given to me by a senior member recently and it helped save the life of a pigeon I was taking care of who wouldn't keep anything down - food or medicine.


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## Grimaldy

Hi BH,

Metacam can be toxic to birds in very small doses; I would not use that drug at all. You could probably get the same or better results just using Borasic acid solution, a few drops in the eye twice a day. You should be able to get the powder at the druggist and just mix up 1/4 teaspoon to a cup of warm water.

By the way you can get just as good a pain reliever in Ibruprofen, liquid, 0.2-0.3 mL. PO; I wouldn't put it in the bird's eye however.


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## altgirl35

metacam is *NOT* toxic to birds


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## nycpigeonlady

Grimaldy said:


> Hi BH,
> 
> Metacam can be toxic to birds in very small doses; I would not use that drug at all. You could probably get the same or better results just using Borasic acid solution, a few drops in the eye twice a day. You should be able to get the powder at the druggist and just mix up 1/4 teaspoon to a cup of warm water.
> 
> By the way you can get just as good a pain reliever in Ibruprofen, liquid, 0.2-0.3 mL. PO; I wouldn't put it in the bird's eye however.


He's putting Baytril in the eye, not Metacam, but I have also heard that PROLONGED use of Metacam causes kidney damage. I have used it for 5 days, with no ill effect, and others have used it for longer than that.


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## altgirl35

the danger with metacam is that if the animal is dehydrated it can cause liver/kidney damage
i only dose if i am sure the animal is well hydrated
i usually don't use it longer than 5 days either, unless its an inflamation issue, then i only dose once a day


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## Grimaldy

I would think that some of our members would at least read about the effects of drugs on birds that is available right here on our forum. It amazes me that people administer dangerous drugs indiscriminately to pigeons and believe it causes no harmful effects, but any physician or veterinarian will tell you that there is a reason that drugs are administered according to known dosages, and only for the reasons those drugs are manufactured to produce.

Metacam or meloxicam as it is really known has been implicated for years in causing deaths in dogs and parrots, one of which is the fact that the dosage is so small. Harrison & Ritchie gives the therapeutic dose at 0.1 mg/kg. So if you have a 300 gram pigeon the dose is 300/1000 x 0.1= 0.03 mg or stated another way 30 one thousandths of one milligram, which itself is 1000 of a gram. That is very small indeed. Metacam or meloxicam is an ani-inflammatory, it is not a pain reliever; it relieves pain secondarily to its anti-inflammatory properties. In humans for instance it is implicated in causing death in cardiac patients, in dogs kidney failure. How long can the drug be safely taken? That depends on the doctor's judgment.

But the point is there are certainly much safer and better pain relievers than also act as anti-inflammatory agents as well, Ibuprofen being one. These stories about people using Metacam in relatively large doses are very likely anecdotal and when the bird suddenly dies the attitude is "Oh well" and just not talked about again.


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## BHenderson

I got a feeling I may have pushed some of the liquid in too hard because she has been coughing throughout the day. When she brought up the Metacam/Enroflox that I had just given her she did it after sort of coughing. It came up with a little seed, but she has continued to eat throughout the day.
I will try again tonight, I will try to be more gentle with the syringe. It may be that I pushed it too hard into her mouth and some of it went down the wrong way?


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## BHenderson

It does not seem to make any difference giving it to her slower, she still brought it up. Its like it even surprises her. She is not sitting there and looking ill and is then sick, she is going about her business flirting with Squeaker, and all of a sudden Squeaker backs away from her and she is throwing up a small amount of seed but with the medicine I have just given her. I do not give her another dose so she effectively has not had any Enroflox or Metacam for 2 days now. She had had a break from both for about a week and the Metacam is just about finished now so if I think she is in pain I will resort to the liquid Ibuprofen. I have continued with the Enroflox diluted to 1% for use in the eyes, and I am only giving this once a day. The eyes still look clear to me so I assume the drops are working well.


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## altgirl35

Are you just putting the meds in her mouth or are you sliding the syringe down her throat into the crop?
I can get a 1ml syringe pretty far down


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## BHenderson

I do need to look at some videos about how to put it straight in their crop. This is the sort of situation where I wish I new other pigeon people in the area who could show me things like this. I am nervous because it does not feel natural to be pushing something so far down the pigeons mouth. I'm sure its just a matter of doing it a couple of times and seeing that it does not hurt them, then I will be able to carry on.


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## altgirl35

Doesn't hurt them, it is easy
Tilt head back, extend the neck and slide it down at least past the glottis
Much safer than putting fluids into the mouth


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## Grimaldy

The key is that the esophagus, the tube that leads to the crop, is located on the left side of the bird's neck and is very thin, almost impossible to feel (Left as the bird faces forward). The trachea, the tube that connects to the lungs, is located on the right side of the bird's neck, and is very easy to feel between your thumb and forefinger. It is about as large as a pencil. That is the tube to avoid putting anything into. So hold the bird's head in your left hand, lift it up. pry the beak open, and put your syringe down along the right side. Inject just a small amount; if you get any coughing or spitting you are in the wrong tube. Back out, try to locate the breathing tube and do not put the syringe into it.


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## Quazar

Grimaldy said:


> The key is that the esophagus, the tube that leads to the crop, is located on the left side of the bird's neck and is very thin, almost impossible to feel (Left as the bird faces forward). The trachea, the tube that connects to the lungs, is located on the right side of the bird's neck, and is very easy to feel between your thumb and forefinger. It is about as large as a pencil. That is the tube to avoid putting anything into. So hold the bird's head in your left hand, lift it up. pry the beak open, and put your syringe down along the *right* side. Inject just a small amount; if you get any coughing or spitting you are in the wrong tube. Back out, try to locate the breathing tube and do not put the syringe into it.


Is it just me or is that not totally confusing ??
I know youre trying to let the poster know the difference between the tubes, but the tube on the left is where the tube should go, so why first direct them to the right & tell them to inject a little ?
Appart from being stressfull for the bird (and dangerous) it wlll also put the caregiver under stress & make it more difficult for them as the bird will then probably try to struggle away on the correct attempt.


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## altgirl35

on pigeons they have a hole in the back of the tongue, it is centered, it is visible by looking in the mouth, a 1ml syringe cannot fit down it without forcing and pushing very very hard, a syringe will slide down just beyond that into the crop
here's a pic of a hawk you can really see the glottis/ air opening on him, piji's the same just smaller


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## Grimaldy

Hi Quazar,,

You are right it does appear to be a bit confusing, I guess that is why the anatomists use terms like sinestro, dextro, to avoid this problems. If you are holding the birds head in your left hand, the directions are reversed, but if you say "hold the bird's head in your left hand and the esophagus will now be on the right side of the neck", it adds to the confusion. The easiest approach is to locate the trachea, a relatively stiff tube and insert the syringe on the opposite side of the neck.

I personally do not think it is a good idea for untrained people to administer anything to a bird by sticking a syringe, feeding tube or whatever down its throat, but if they are going to do that it is probably a good idea to try to help them understand what they need to do to avoid killing the bird.


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## BHenderson

I have been looking at a couple of drawings and the advice given here, thank you. The hawk picture is helpful as I see it is the same in the pigeons mouth. I do understand all the instructions given and I will try tonight. As suggested I will be careful to only try a little fluid until I am sure she is not coughing.

Frazzle does struggle unfortunately, and this does make it more difficult to have a good look. Now she is being sick with this medicine, I begin to think maybe something about this medicine is unpleasant to her and that is why she struggles when I try to give it to her?

I must add the eye still looks good, as I am still putting the drops in the eye. I am thinking of making the drops a little stronger as she does not struggle with the eye drops(not as much anyway) but really does not like the medicine orally. Maybe a 2% solution might help keep the infection away? The eye does look good, but I think because it still has some dark markings on the eye it is still prone to get infected, so I must try to keep the infection down until it has time to heal. It is looking much more like a proper eye and is blinking now and they eyeball moves. I will do my best.

I need to do some tests to see if the eye has any sight left. She does not try to turn her good eye toward me so I feel she has some residual sight in that eye, but not much. She cannot tell how close I am and does not pull back if I get too close, but does seem to know I am there without turning her good eye to me. Its hard to tell exactly how much sight she has.

By the way I think she is making a nest and is getting ready to lay an egg. The egg is likely to be fertile as well as its Squeakers, and he never seems to fail. I know this is not best for a bird that need all her strength for healing, but when Squeaker returned she was so pleased to see him, and I wanted her to have some enjoyment while I am having to do all these nasty things to her. Poor dear. I'm so pleased she is looking better, that first photo did not hold much hope. I think if she had been left on the outside to try and heal that burn it would have overwhelmed her.
Squeaker does not understand that her face is sore, and when they are grooming each other she pulls away if he tries to groom her face and he does not understand. I will try to keep putting the aloe vera on as it seems to counter the itchiness of the skin.


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## Quazar

Grimaldy said:


> Hi Quazar,,
> 
> You are right it does appear to be a bit confusing, I guess that is why the anatomists use terms like sinestro, dextro, to avoid this problems. If you are holding the birds head in your left hand, the directions are reversed, but if you say "hold the bird's head in your left hand and the esophagus will now be on the right side of the neck", it adds to the confusion. The easiest approach is to locate the trachea, a relatively stiff tube and insert the syringe on the opposite side of the neck.
> 
> I personally do not think it is a good idea for untrained people to administer anything to a bird by sticking a syringe, feeding tube or whatever down its throat, but if they are going to do that it is probably a good idea to try to help them understand what they need to do to avoid killing the bird.


Ah, right, think i've got you now, was not 100% awake when first read it, but reading again I see what you are getting at (although it could still confuse a lot of folk). 
So it wouldnt matter whether the bird was held in left or right hand, but it would matter whether bird was facing toward or away from you.
In actual fact, although the tubes do run down either side of the neck,
The actual opening of the trachea is at the back of the tongue but nearest to the front of the birds beak, and the opening for the esophagus is behind.


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## altgirl35

as long as syringe is past the glottis you don't have to worry about left or right there is only one way to go and that is into the crop, putting fluids directly into the mouth a risk, as they can inhale it and aspirate
pigeon are sooo easy to direct dose with a 1 ml syringe into the crop
bh, can't give frazzle a choice when it comes to meds, she doesn't know whats best for herself, you do, if you need to wrap her in a towel to get the job done, that's whatcha gotta do


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## Grimaldy

Well Quazar,

I suggest you do a couple of dissections rather than reading it out of a book.
You might be pleasantly surprised to learn where the trachea and the esophagus are located in the birds neck; and that is where and how you palpitate them so you can determine which tube is which before sticking anything down the bird's throat.


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## Quazar

Grimaldy said:


> Well Quazar,
> 
> I suggest you do a couple of dissections rather than reading it out of a book.
> You might be pleasantly surprised to learn where the trachea and the esophagus are located in the birds neck; and that is where and how you palpitate them so you can determine which tube is which before sticking anything down the bird's throat.


Actually, it wasnt read from a book, but information & diagram forwarded to me by a Vet Lecturer from the Royal Dick School of vet Studies in Edinburgh.
He also explained that because the crop is at the front of the bird, and the esophagus effectively twists left from the base of the neck towards the back as it reaches the top (and the trachea twists right towards the front) both openings appear at the top of the throat at a slight angle, being in the reverse of where one would expect.


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## Grimaldy

That is entirely true.

Unlike a human which has its trachea directly at the back of the esophagus, the pigeon has the two lying almost side by side. But that is not apparent until you dissect the mouth. So it provides a handy means of being certain which tube is which. Place your thumb on the trachea and you can feel the syringe enter, then you know you are in the wrong place immediately. Too many people just push the syringe into the bird's mouth and squirt it in.

By the way, in some cases the esophagus will tear itself away so that food enters the thoracic lumen, as in cases where the pigeon's chest is torn open for one reason or another. Interestingly, you can continue to feed the bird by just closing the tear in the chest wall so the food does not run out.


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## BHenderson

I agree with all that is being said and I need to stop being a wuss and hold the bird firmly and stop melting when she tries to climb up my jumper and hide in my neck because she does not want me to do what I am going to do. I do understand.

Just to make the point though, did any of you have to do this by yourselves with no one to tell you if you are doing it correctly or not?
You can see why I am nervous, especially when I have been primed with people telling me stories of how they almost killed their birds by doing it wrongly!!!!!


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## altgirl35

I saw it once at a rehab center thru a window, long before I was permitted and long before I joined this group
Next piji I got, I went for it and I found it pretty easy
U got videos u can watch on u tube too
I wish all birds were as easy to tube and dose as Pijis 
Only way to learn it is to do it, be confident
Wrap her up, and go for it, look to see where the glottis is
Hold her little head, extend her neck tilt her back slightly so it's more of a straight shot into the crop, u don't have to push syringe all the way to the hilt, 1/2 way is fine
U can do it


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## kamz

Please read what i am about to type carefully. this is a fail safe method of ensuring you have entered your feeding tube/1 ml syringe into the crop, as opposed to the trachea. I was taught this by my vet. 

As grimwaldy already said, it is best to aim for the left side of the back of the throat - past that inviting round hole. The round easy to visualise hole is the trachea - you dont want to go there! Ensure the beak is open wide enough so you can visualise that round hole constantly - and avoid going in  

Ok, so you manage to get the tube down into what you think is the crop - now you are probably thinking - "am i really in the crop?"

The way of checking you are in the crop is to gently (very gently) pull at the front of the neck of your pigeon, you should be able to feel the trachea (which unlike humans, is soft and kind of like an elastic band). As long as you can feel the soft elastic band of the trachea when you pull gently at the front of the neck (and it doesn't feel like it has a large rigid piece of feeding tube in it) then you know you are correctly in the crop. 

You can practice feeling for the trachea before feeding. feel comfortable with what it feels like. That way you can differentiate the trachea, and ensure you haven't inserted a whomping great feeding tube down it. My vet swears by it for beginners. I still use it every time. 


Best of luck - crop feeding is really far safer for your bird - you dont want to get frazzle aspiration pneumonia on top of everything else! Hopefully practicing this method should give you the certainty that you are doing no harm, 

Susie


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## BHenderson

Ok its done, yes it is easy and I should have just done it without thinking about it too much. She has not brought up the medicine so far so we will see. I didn't like having to hold her so hard because she was struggling, but I think even she was surprised by how quick it was done once I had the right hole.
Anyway I hope I will be even quicker next time, and I am hoping once she is used to it she will not feel the need to Squirm about so much.

Thank you all for your useful hints.


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## altgirl35

good luck with that bh! even babies that adore me do not like to be grabbed and medicated, lol


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## kamz

They never stop squirming I'm afraid


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## altgirl35

nope, never!


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## BHenderson

I'm afraid I have a different problem. When I caught Frazzle today her eye was bloody. Not gushing but it looks like it might have been scratched or pecked. There are some fight breaking out between Squeaker and his son(who I have not named properly yet) over Frazzle, and I think Squeaker tries to force poor Frazzle away from anyone he considers competition. I know this is normal behaviour for pigeons but I think Frazzle is getting the worst of it. Her eye is not yet strong enough to cope with being pecked and it has started to bleed. I noticed the other day that some of the skin on her scalp had been removed but it had formed a scab and I assumed she had scratched it, I am not so sure now. 
I may have to take some precautions to try to protect her. She is getting ready to lay eggs though so it makes it rather awkward. Perhaps Squeaker will not feel the need to drive her once she has layed her eggs?


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## altgirl35

gotta seperate her until she is better


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## BHenderson

I have separated them for now and Frazzle is staying one side of the room and the males on the other. They know I will not let them near frazzle for the time being and I am here 95% of the time. I will see if we can get to the point where she lays her eggs without further injury. Once that happens I think he will not feel the need to keep driving her.

If she still gets attacked then I will clear the big cage for her and she can stay in there until she heals up. I do not have another room in this bedsit so the cage is the only place she can go. She is not going to like the cage so I will only do this if necessary.


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## BHenderson

I have not been back for a while because I have been busy with the baby crow I have been looking after, but I thought I better pop back to let anyone who is interested know that Frazzle is doing fine.

She has been off all meds of for some time now and the eye has stayed clear. I do not think she is getting any sight back in the eye though. She has continues to mate with Squeaker and they have built a nest but she has not laid an egg. I don't know if her system has been affected by what has happened to her and is not ready to lay eggs. They seem happy together anyway.

I spent some time stopping the two males from pecking her, and they eventually got the idea and she does not seem to have had any injuries since. She joins in with the others and is eating and drinking normally.

I would not like to release her, so I hope I win this battle with the council and am able to keep her with the others. She would always be at a disadvantage with only one eye. I will continue to check the eye and if I see any improvement in the sight I will post back here.

Thank you all for your help, especially altgirl35. Your persistence getting me to continue with medication when I was inclined to stop payed off in the end.

Brian.


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## altgirl35

that's great news brian , all i ask for is more pix!
and def TAKE THAT CROW TO A REHABBER!! he WILL really get you in trouble, if you raise him by himself the wilds will never ever accept him and may kill him if you try to release him
if he survives he will be the biggest pain in the butt, will get into everything, land on people, steal keys, phones, anything shiny and anthing that interests him, they love to wreck things, lawn chairs, window screens, windshield wipers, whatever looks like it needs to be destroyed
they make terrible pets, you can never entertain him enough, they literally go crazy in captivity, they are loud, destructive, stinky, messy and i don't think anyone on this planet can deal with that for 45+ yrs
he will never be happy unless you can build him a outdoor flight pen at least 30ft, 30 ft by 20 ft high and even then he will be lonely, noisy and bored
please please please bring him to a rehabber who has the proper outdoor caging and hopfully other babies for him to be raised with
crows are my favorite of all birds to raise but they are definatly not for the inexperienced, and i would never ever raise one alone


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## BHenderson

Hi altgirl35,

I will put up some new pictures soon.

As for the crow, I did initially try to take her to a rehab, but I have had problems. The rehab delayed me taking her in, and after a bit of talking when they found out that I already look after pigeons, they asked if I would consider looking after the crow as they are short of staff.
She has a sort of club foot, which I suspect was caused by a bad diet as she has straightened up a lot in the week or so she has been with me on good food. After discussing things with the crow group that I am now a member of, they think she has been rejected by her parents because of her 'club foot'.

I cannot even take her to the local RSPCA hospital. Initially I was going to get her feet looked at. I spoke to them and they said that they would have a look on the understanding that I did not leave her there, I had to take her back home. In the end I did not take her because there is a lot of suspicion about the tactics of the RSPCA, apparently they have put crows to sleep in the past without giving the person who took it in the chance to take the crow back home.

I have been given warnings about how difficult crows can be, but considering I already live in a bare room with only my 'protected' computer for company, I think I am already partially prepared. She is slowly making friends with the pigeons although they are still a little afraid of her. She tried to get them to feed her most of the time so I think they have begun to realise she is a baby. They also know that I will not allow bullying so they do not pick on her, although even as a baby I think she can look after herself.

The general opinion in the crow group is yes, they are a difficult bird to raise, but not impossible. Many of the people in the group seem to be living quite well with their crow's. I have no one to take her to at the moment, and until I make a decision I am going to keep looking after her.
I am going to speak to other crow owners in the group about the difficulties you mention, and the difficulty that concerns me more, how will she cope with growing up on her own. I'll let you know what I decide.

If I do decide to take her to a rehab, I will have to find one that is willing to take her. We appear to have too many crows in the UK and they are not protected, that is why people end up raising them at home.

She is very sweet and insists on sleeping with me at night. I am very fond of her and I do not find her destructive ways a bother as I have nothing to destroy. I may also be moving to the countryside soon, as the councils attitude to my birds has been the last straw and I cannot see myself staying in London.

Ill let you know how it goes.


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## altgirl35

Oh boy, shes got u! 
They sweet when they are babes for sure !
They are awesome as adults too, but they are a handful
They need to eat meat, they love to bathe many times a day, they also like to make soup with the bath water
She will hide her mice bits everywhere
Does she have a clenched foot? Like a fist?
I have fixed those before 
Take a pic


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## BHenderson

She is just getting to the point where she is starting to stand. She seems to have straightened up a lot since she has been here. I am feeding her on a mix or raw egg, brown bread and kitten food that was suggested by the rehab. She rally loves this and gobbles it down. I am feeding her about 6 times a day.

I brought some 'Nutribird a19 yellow top' for the pigeons by mistake some time ago, and she seems to like this as well which is good because it contains lots of enzymes and probiotics and prebiotics and vitamins etc etc. She does not like it as much as the kitten food mix so I have been giving it for breakfast and switching to the kitten food mix for the rest of the day. I put the probiotic and vitamin mix that I put in the water for the pigeons on top of her food,

I know its a bit corny, but I have decided to call her 'Beauty' as in Black Beauty'.

These pictures were taken a few days ago, but as I say she looks better already. Because she is standing on her tall legs now the foot does not look half as bad as it did. She has learnt very well to get around with her good foot as well.

View attachment 24097


View attachment 24098


View attachment 24099


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## altgirl35

Best thing to feed her is cut up adult mice, minimum of 2 a day
They have everything she needs in them, they even store vitamin d inside them
The diet sounds devoid of calcium, I have had crows with metabolic bone disease from 
Being raised on bad diets and it is heart breaking
I feed the mazuri handfeeding formula or the Fons diet
With mice while they are little
Weaning foods I feed mice, chicken, berries, hard boiled egg, parrot pellets and throw in just about everything here and there, calcium rich animal based protien should be the base of her diet
I even give em junk once in a while like hot dog once in while
I sprinkle the everything with calcium carbonate and avian vitamins 
U can repair that foot, hafta make a little shoe for her and tape her toes down flat
I hafta finish up everyones breakfast here and I will sit down at the pc and try to explain it in a little while
I know feeding mice is gross but it is absolutely necessary for a growing crow, they sell feeder frozen mice at pet stores for snakes
I luckily get them donated by the trash bag full from laboratories


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## altgirl35

okay, please please forgive the sloppy job i just did, but been a crazy day so far
between feeding all the babies, i just got 9 baby wild turkeys
hopefully you can get the gist of it


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## BHenderson

I appreciate your help altgirl35, but I have an awful stomach ache(food poisoning i think) and I cant concentrate. Ill be back tomorrow.


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## altgirl35

hope your feeling better, the sooner you put her shoe on the better the outcome


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## BHenderson

I have had a few days of sickness, but I hope to catch up this weekend. All the spare energy I had was used preparing meals and cleaning. Her foot has got a lot better already and it is no longer bunched up like a fist, but it still needs some help. The antibiotics I am on are starting to work so I will be back later to talk. I wont be eating round that persons house again!!!!


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## Quazar

BHenderson said:


> I have had a few days of sickness, but I hope to catch up this weekend. All the spare energy I had was used preparing meals and cleaning. Her foot has got a lot better already and it is no longer bunched up like a fist, but it still needs some help. The antibiotics I am on are starting to work so I will be back later to talk. I wont be eating round that persons house again!!!!


Glad youre feeling a bit better, hope u didnt use all the antibiotics yourself


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## BHenderson

I am going to have a go at putting this together tomorrow. The only thing that worries me is if the foot can be stretched that far in one go?


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## Bella_F

BHenderson said:


> I have had a few days of sickness, but I hope to catch up this weekend. All the spare energy I had was used preparing meals and cleaning. Her foot has got a lot better already and it is no longer bunched up like a fist, but it still needs some help. The antibiotics I am on are starting to work so I will be back later to talk. I wont be eating round that persons house again!!!!


I only just noticed your pic of the baby crow Well done with the foot .

I am caring for a sick (adult) crow too at the moment; it will probably be here for some time. I love it and I love crows- they are stronger, messier and smellier than pigeons but nowhere near as stinky or messy as baby humans 

I think only some people can appreciate and get on with crows-they are very shy & emotional . You have to earn their friendship and trust, and also respect their inherent shyness, which kicks in more and more as they age.

This adult I have, I raised in the wild when it was an orphan, four years ago. For six whole months my life was consumed by that little bird After it integrated into the flock, I didn't see much of him & when i called his name, he shyly waddled off and hid behind a bush, lol. But when he got sick and couldn't fly well any more, he came right back here to my back door, and lived on my deck waiting for food every day. When it came down to it, he was extremely tame and trusting. When he could no longer fly I caught him  Its so nice being able to spoil him and give him proper care. I keep him in a large outside aviary so his crow friends can come and eat with him still.


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## nycpigeonlady

That's such a sweet story Bella. I hope your baby recovers fully. I'm glad you're keeping him outside so that he can still interact with the others - I've heard that family is very important to crows.


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## altgirl35

ah bella, is that the same crow you posted about a long time ago?
sooo cool,


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## Bella_F

altgirl35 said:


> ah bella, is that the same crow you posted about a long time ago?
> sooo cool,


Yeah, it is! Its name is `Little Whaah', and my heart is swelling with happiness to have him finally with me for proper care and feeding. It was really hard work raising him in the wild, with the nosy neighbours and attracting attention. I tried to feed him in a public park, but he got himself into people's yards sometimes and when it rained, he couldn't fly...what an ordeal

I'm terrified that he may have something like pox now, but I'm trying to stay positive and treat in a logical way. For example, I saw it poop out many huge round worm eggs with partially hatched round worms in them- so best case scenario is Little Whaah was weakened by the worms. I am also giving a sulfa antibiotics in water for coccidia/bacteria. I guess if he does have pox, I have caught him early in the disease and the nutrition should boost his immunity.

Altgirl, do you know any good immune boosters for crows, apart from good food?


PS. So sorry for the brief hijack!


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## Bella_F

nycpigeonlady said:


> That's such a sweet story Bella. I hope your baby recovers fully. I'm glad you're keeping him outside so that he can still interact with the others - I've heard that family is very important to crows.


Eva, Yes, it seems to be, maybe even more to an orphan like Little Whaah because his early months were so lonely, and he was so desperate to find his parents again. When he finally joined with some local crows, he distanced himself from me very quickly so he would be accepted by them, and he made it work.

He actually carefully places some of his best food morsels just outside his aviary, I think to attract the other crows so he won't be lonely. They are with him all through the day now 

Its nice. Even though i kept him wild and he was never mine, he's the only crow that eats from my hand , and will play tug of war with me with a stick


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## altgirl35

Good diet is the best, of course de worm him
Sulfa is good for coccidia, I'm using something called baycox for coccidia now
Works great and only 3 doses 3 days in row and it knocks it out unlike albon
Which u have to dose for 3 weeks
Start a new post bout ur guy and pm me the link. I'm overloaded with baby birdies (including 4 bb crows) so I don't look at most of the posts right now


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## altgirl35

I should say sulfa trim work good at reducing coccidia but doesn't get rid of it


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## Bella_F

Yep. I plan to give amprolium for the cocci, but I don't know whats wrong so I'm starting with the basics - broad antibiotic first, wormer, then amprolium if the enteritis persists. Its damn hard- he hollers and gets extremely stressed when handled, and one of my fingers is in bad shape from the other day when he bit it. So I'm putting meds in the water now. He won't even take bread balls with the medicine in it. Smart arse.

Anyway thats enough of a hijack, my apologies Bhhenderson, hopefully thsi wasn't totally irrelvent!


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## altgirl35

bella, when i have to dose an uncooperative crow, i withhold food in the morning and inject a pinky (dead) mouse with the medication, they usually just gobble it whole


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## BHenderson

Hi All and especially Bella_F

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back here, I did not realise posts were building up. I loved your story of your crow bella_F, it encourages me to think that I cannot be doing that much wrong as my crow acts similar to your, although she does not seem to be as shy. She loves to get into everything I am doing and has learnt to pull the keys out of the keyboard, so I have to put it together again before I can use it lol. The only down side with the crow is the one that you mentioned in your first post, that they are more smelly. My bedclothes have to be rotated a lot more now and she is unable to stand on me for even a short time without leaving me a "present". And of course because crows are meat eaters their poo smells a lot more than pigeons. I hope I will be able to train her to poop anywhere but on me, but at the moment she is too young.
She tries to interact with the pigeons, but I get the feeling they do not understand each other, and the females that have eggs tend to attack her. She is getting bigger all the time and I think the tables will turn soon. She does not seem to show any interest in their eggs although I acknowledge that if I go out for a long time there is a chance she may try to eat them.

I have been really unlucky recently, I had one dose of food poisoning from eating at a friends house(i cant imagine that anyone's hygiene can be any worse than mine with all these birds about!!!) and then I caught a second very serious dose of food poisoning I think from not cleaning my hands well enough after cutting up chicken livers for Beauty. I am not used to handling meat as I do not eat much myself and the pigeons eat seed.
Anyway, for the past several days I have been either in the bathroom or in bed with cold sweats. I was so weak it was hard to keep up the cleaning and the feeding, but I just about managed.

I have been asking around about vets for Beauty, as I do not want to construct the "shoe" you have described altgirl35. I have been unable to get the blue cross to see her and I have been warned away from going to the RSPCA hospital as some people have had bad experiences down there. I recently went to a local wetland park only to find that if they have a sick bird they ship them out to the RSPCB, and don't have any vets on site. Another dud.
It looks like I will have to make this show myself, but I am reluctant because although her feet have improved as she has started to stand properly, and she is able to get around much better, she is effectively walking totally on the side of one foot and partially on the side of the other. I will take another picture soon as she is standing properly now so you can see her feet much better. The problem is that if I lay her feet flat out on the shoe it is going to involve quite a bit of force, and she does not even like me to massage her bad foot at the moment. I am not looking forward to forcing her foot into this new position as it is going to hurt her. On the other hand I do realise that if I do not try to straighten out her feet she will always be at a disadvantage, and the feeling on the crow group is that she would be unable to hunt properly and would therefore be unsuitable for release.
I would love to keep her(even with all her smelly poop lol) but I am having trouble with the local council. My solicitor is on my side but the council is getting annoyed that they are unable to bully me into doing what they want, and I may end up in a situation where I am unable to keep her if the council threaten to shut me down. I will fight them all the way, but if I do have to rehouse the birds I think it is the crow that I will have trouble with. If I can give her a chance at fixing her feet I would love to, but I am a coward when it comes to animal pain because they do not understand why you are hurting them!!!

Anyway hopefully with the help of altgirl35(don't worry I know you are busy at the moment) and some of the members on the crow list, I hope to find a way round this problem.

It was nice to hear your story Bella_F,

Brian.

P.s. just a little side inquiry for you altgirl35 when you are not so busy. Frazzle has been sitting on her nest for weeks now and has not actually laid an egg? The others are on their second batch of infertile eggs (because the males have PMV and cannot mate properly) but she has not managed to lay one egg yet. Is this anything to worry about?


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## altgirl35

not sure about the eggs, i tend to save the guys that are already hatched!
someone else will have to advise on that
i wouldn't keep the crow with the piji's, crows are very capable a killing a bird with one quick stab
chicken liver has no calcium, please feed her mice, i'm begging you
do some internet research on metabolic bone disease, i get them every year from well meaning people thinking it would be cool to raise a crow, 1/2 the time i have to euthanize because they have multiple fractures all over their bodies, because their bones are so brittle from an improper diet and i cannot reverse it
please pay attention to my diet advise, if you won't or can't please find someone willing to properly take care of her
i'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but i really adore crows and i don't want a single one to suffer.. ever..


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## Bella_F

Hi Brian,

It was great hearing from you, and I really appreciated your update.

I had a really bad dose of salmonella poisoning a couple of years back, so I am very sorry to hear that you've experienced this too. Its like being hit by a bus isn't it? It turns out I got it from touching the eggshell of a slightly cracked egg, that had infected the shells of a whole carton of eggs. Luckily for we humans, salmonella is self limiting (though SO painful huh?). Anyway glad its almost over for you, that must have been rough caring for birds when you were so sick

Regarding the crows group, have you met Catherine (kittythehare) yet? She's in the Uk and just about the most knowledgable crow rehabber I've met. She should be able to help.

And yeah- crow poo! Its something else, lol. But then I look at little Whaah's beautiful face and I think he's worth all the cleaning and inconvenience. Crows are just so special, and its nice to help them get well again. I envy you having a baby there with you, that must be awesome, being so close to him. Little Whaah will eat from my hand but he is still getting over being handled last week, he was terrified.

Regarding vitamins like calcium, I've never been able to get hold of dead mice or day old chicks, though they sound good for birds like crows. Some other sources of calcium that I know of are powders you get for reptiles at a pet store, ground up eggshell, or dog food with vitamins added. I was taught to give chopped up hearts, plus veges like peas and corn as well. He also seems to love some nuts and fruits, like grapes.

Anyway I hope things go well with the council, that so awful getting harrassed by them


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## BHenderson

Hi altgirl35, I think we have slightly crossed wires....

I am not feeding Beauty purely on chicken liver, I am following the diet that is recommended on the crow list. I assume a lot of things when I am writing and should have made this clear. I only mentioned the chicken livers because I suspect I got the food poisoning from not washing my hands properly. I am not used to handling meat as I hardly ever use it.

The main ingredients for her meals is the puppy kibble, which is high in protein(30%) fat(20%) and vitamins, minerals, enzymes and probiotics. I also supplement any other food I make with the vitamin, mineral and probiotic mix that I use for the pigeons.

I am always looking for new ingredients, like the peas and sweetcorn suggested by Bella_F, to make the meals more variable. I am thinking of making some kind of bread omelet with added kibble peas and sweetcorn for today. I have a local pet shop that does supply for reptile keepers and I think they have things like frozen mice and the like, but I don't know if they provide live mice.

I seem to have misled you about Frazzle not laying eggs as well. I was saying that she is not laying eggs at all. The other hens are laying quite well but Frazzle despite continuous mating and sitting on the nest has not layed any eggs. I was just concerned that this may be some problem related to her damaged face and eye? maybe the chemicals she was burnt with may have had an effect? I am just concerned that things could be getting stuck inside her?

Nice to hear from you Bella_f, and yes I think I have met Catherine, she has left some hints for me on things. She does not call herself kittythehare on the list though, so it may be a different Catherine. Hope to speak more soon, I have to leave for a hospital appointment soon and I must feed everyone.

Brian.


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## altgirl35

okay good, whew. i just get in a panic with these guys sometimes,plus i'm overloaded with orphans songbirds and 4 baby crows of my own, so i'm extra testy
dust everything with calcium for her
pet stores should sell frozen mice for snake owners, i couldn't do live mice, one of the reasons i don't raise raptors
although i did just get a call about 2 baby owls, got a friend checking it out
i get my mice by the garbage bag full donated by labratories, so i never have a shortage of them, no guilt because these places are going to kill them no matter what, at least they are nice enough to donate them to rehabbers
whats nice about mice is they also store vit d in thier bodies, if you only fed mice they would get everything they need in that little package, but that's a lot of mice!
i'm not a pigeon keeper so i can't really advise frazzle n the nesting, i rehab piji's but don't keep them
i always discourage egg laying in my parrots, takes a lot out of them and they are total jerks when they do lay eggs (infertile, no males) for a good 6 weeks, and they are mean jerks to begin with most of the time, so it's much much worse when they are nesting!


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## BHenderson

Thanks altgirl35, I will look out for some calcium powder to add to the other stuff. I can see she has nice strong boney legs now she is standing up. I think she is still a bit young to give her a whole mouse, but I will check the pet shop this weekend. They may be smaller than I realise.

I will keep an eye on Frazzle, maybe her body is busy healing itself so will not produce eggs yet. I will look out for changes in behavior, but at the moment she seems happy to keep mating with Squeaker and to keep sitting on the nest even though she is not laying any eggs. I will keep a close eye on her...

Thanks for the help,
Brian.


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## altgirl35

for younger ones i use scissors to cut into bite sized pieces, so gross i try not to look
mbd can be invisible without an xray


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## BHenderson

I had a look in the pet shop today, and they are quite small and cheap, only 36p each or 3 for a pound.

If I present her with this defrosted pinky, will she know what to do with it?


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## altgirl35

mbe, if she opens her mouth for food, shove one in 
pinky's don't have the same nutrition as adults, sprinkle them with cal powder and avian vits too


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## BHenderson

I hope to get some on Monday, along with some ground chicken and bone which is suggested on the list as a treat. I will look for some calcium powder as well. I'll let you know how it goes feeding her mice.


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