# Genetic Tip Of The Day



## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

Iam just starting to learn about genetics so i think if could all appropriately leave tips about genetics that would be great to help me and others develop in our genetic knowledge.

Now some of us know that there was a original GTOTD that was closed by a mod for petty problems keep in mind many of us dont know all the terminiology out there, second keep in mind where talking about pigeons here its simple dont make it into something its not. Remember leave lots of informational post and keep it fun thANK FOR THE COOPERATION LETS MAKE THIS A GREAT THREAD


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't know where to start. So much to say. Pick a topic to narrow it down, haha


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

color or pattern genetics


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, I'm going to skip the base color genetics as everyone has heard enough about that lately.

There are 4 main patterns in pigeons. In order from most dominant to most recessive:

T-pattern - C^T
Check - C
Bar - C+
Barless - c

Pigeon geneticists have also gone further to recognize Dark Check (C^D) which is between Check and T-pattern on the dominance scale, and Light Check (C^L) which is between Check and Bar on the scale.

All pigeons are one pattern or the other. Pattern is NOT sex-linked, which means that both male and female pigeons can carry two pattern genes. 

There are a couple color modifiers that are linked to pattern. Spread (S) and Recessive Opal (o). This is more for the advanced geneticist than the beginner, but I will try my best to explain it in a simple way. 

Lets say you have a Recessive Opal bar (pure bar). The recessive opal gene is closely linked to the pattern (keep in mind it is linked to the pattern that SHOWS itself), which in this case is bar. You mate this bird to a regular blue check (pure check).
The offspring from this mating will all be Checks carrying recessive opal and bar.
But you want to make rec. opal checks....so you mate the children together.

From this mating you will get 25% bars, and 75% checks (some carrying bar). Ideally, 25% of the barred birds will also be recessive opal, and 25% of the checks will be recessive opal. That puts you having a LOT more opal checks than opal bars...right? Wrong.
Because of the pattern linkage, things are changed. Remember your original opal was a bar. When two genes are linked together, that means they travel together and it can be hard to split them up the closer together on the chromosome they are. So, the recessive opal gene was carried along with the bar gene from that bird.
Now, almost all the opals from this mating will be barred, almost zero opal checks. You will also hardly get any plain blue bars.

I have scans from a book that may be able to explain it better than I can, if you are interested  So there is my half beginner tip and half advanced tip for pattern. Also need to note that although spread is also linked to pattern, it is not as closely linked to it as recessive opal is.


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

thx that was pretty easy to get


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here's another tip/random fact I just thought of. Not related to any specific topic.

I'm sure you have seen the red Lebanons with that real pretty white ribbon tail and laced flights.

If you ever want to make it, here is the formula. Homozygous in all these genes:
-Ash-red (B^A)
- T-pattern (C^T)
-Spread (S)
- Smokey (sy)
- Lebanon Bronze (K1) or brander bronze (K^b). True lebanon color is of course lebanon bronze, but brander bronze will be just fine as a substitute.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

And if you ever want to bring Ice into your birds...Homozygous dirty is a must for the lightest/best Ice expressions! Sounds ridiculous that such a light bird would need such a dark gene but it is easy to see in Damascenes and Ice Pigeons. If you lift up the neck feathers they are a dark gray/black color. The skin and eye cere of the birds are also dark from the dirty. 
Ice itself is a partial dominant gene. That means in the heterozygous form a partial expression can be seen. Split ice birds can vary greatly depending on what other modifiers are present. Some look very much like pure ice, others you can hardly notice. With partial dominant genes only in the homozygous form will you see the true expression. And in the case of ice, homozygous dirty is also needed for it to show at its fullest. Keeping this in mind will save you time in your project if you select the right birds as your foundation.
It is also best to work with blue based birds at first because they are easier to read color-wise when ice is involved. Also, bar is best to start with, if possible, as checks can look washed out/grainy and take work to get them crisp like in forellen blue check ice pigeons.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well, I'm going to skip the base color genetics as everyone has heard enough about that lately.
> 
> There are 4 main patterns in pigeons. In order from most dominant to most recessive:
> 
> ...


Nice one Becky, I think Lockentauben should copy his post on base colours over to here, It was good and simple I thought but covered everything off. Lockentauben - are you still out there, If so bring it accross I reckon. Its a shame about your thread though.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Another random fact I found out the hard way. Using the 4 main patterns (JUST the pattern, not the color), there are 85 possible matings  That's pure to pure, pure to split, and split to split. Sex of course didn't matter. I wrote them all out with offspring ratios. And a mathmatical friend confirmed it with a fancy smancy equation, haha. It's been too long since calculus and hardly ever use more than basic math unless I have to. 

I can type it all out here if anyone wants me to.


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> And if you ever want to bring Ice into your birds...Homozygous dirty is a must for the lightest/best Ice expressions! Sounds ridiculous that such a light bird would need such a dark gene but it is easy to see in Damascenes and Ice Pigeons. If you lift up the neck feathers they are a dark gray/black color. The skin and eye cere of the birds are also dark from the dirty.
> Ice itself is a partial dominant gene. That means in the heterozygous form a partial expression can be seen. Split ice birds can vary greatly depending on what other modifiers are present. Some look very much like pure ice, others you can hardly notice. With partial dominant genes only in the homozygous form will you see the true expression. And in the case of ice, homozygous dirty is also needed for it to show at its fullest. Keeping this in mind will save you time in your project if you select the right birds as your foundation.
> It is also best to work with blue based birds at first because they are easier to read color-wise when ice is involved. Also, bar is best to start with, if possible, as checks can look washed out/grainy and take work to get them crisp like in forellen blue check ice pigeons.


dirty means black beak and toenails right


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> And if you ever want to bring Ice into your birds...Homozygous dirty is a must for the lightest/best Ice expressions! Sounds ridiculous that such a light bird would need such a dark gene but it is easy to see in Damascenes and Ice Pigeons. If you lift up the neck feathers they are a dark gray/black color. The skin and eye cere of the birds are also dark from the dirty.
> Ice itself is a partial dominant gene. That means in the heterozygous form a partial expression can be seen. Split ice birds can vary greatly depending on what other modifiers are present. Some look very much like pure ice, others you can hardly notice. With partial dominant genes only in the homozygous form will you see the true expression. And in the case of ice, homozygous dirty is also needed for it to show at its fullest. Keeping this in mind will save you time in your project if you select the right birds as your foundation.
> It is also best to work with blue based birds at first because they are easier to read color-wise when ice is involved. Also, bar is best to start with, if possible, as checks can look washed out/grainy and take work to get them crisp like in forellen blue check ice pigeons.


this also means my dirty check pair will have ice babies


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks to tipllers rule for restarting this thread. And to all the rest of you for trying to help us understand genetics. It is definitely a topic that needs discussion. 

Dave


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Becky - It's tip of the day not 10 tips a day lol.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

tipllers rule said:


> this also means my dirty check pair will have ice babies


Only if the ice gene is involved as well.
And yes, dirty gives the birds black skin as babies, but they keep the black beak and toenails as adults and darker shade of feathers. 



And yes I know it says tip of the day. But in the event I'm too busy to drop in the next few days, I've got some saved up LOL. I was bored. It was like 2am! And I was wide awake.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I would move this back to the genetics subforum...


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thread has been moved. Thank you Henk69.


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

To begin explaining genetics our starting point is the most common colour and pattern in the wild species which we call 'wild type'. It's blue in colour and barred in pattern, ( blue bar ), it has clean legs, no crest and no mutations. All other colours and patterns are mutations from 'wild type'.

When we say a gene is recessive or dominant we are comparing it to wild type. If a gene is a recessive gene it needs two copies to show on wild type and if a gene is dominant it only needs one copy to show.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

tipllers rule said:


> Dirty means black beak and toenails right


A black beak and toenails (an an adult bird) does not necessarily imply dirty.

All blue birds of any pattern have black beaks and toenails, but they are not dirty. As such, we can say that the black beak and toe-nails is wild-type.

The only way to definitely tell whether a bird is dirty, is by looking at it in the nest. As Becky said, it will have dark skin (even around the beak). The legs and toes will remain dark until around the first moult, at which time the legs will go bright red (like normal birds'), due to the deposits of carotenoid pigments being deposited in the skin.


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## lockentauben (Jul 2, 2012)

Does dirty improve black? And make it shiny?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

lockentauben said:


> To begin explaining genetics our starting point is the most common colour and pattern in the wild species which we call 'wild type'. It's blue in colour and barred in pattern, ( blue bar ), it has clean legs, no crest and no mutations. All other colours and patterns are mutations from 'wild type'.
> 
> When we say a gene is recessive or dominant we are comparing it to wild type. If a gene is a recessive gene it needs two copies to show on wild type and if a gene is dominant it only needs one copy to show.


I only have one comment, the order of dominance can also be compared for any 2 alleles. For instance Ash-red is dominant to brown (even though brown is not wild type).

The most complex of these dominance relations can be seen where there are a lot of alleles at a locus. For instance the 3 mutant alleles at the pattern locus. T-pattern > Check > Bar (Wild-type) > Barless. This means that T-pattern is dominant to wild-type, but also that T-pattern is dominant to barless, and dominant to check as well.

Reversing the sequence gives recessive relations. 
Barless < Bar < Check < T-pattern: barless is recessive to wild-type, but it is also recessive to check, and T-pattern.

I use the > and < symbols specifically to show that the relation of dominance in alleles works exactly like 'greater than' and 'less than' in mathematics. 1<2<3 and 3>2>1. Co-dominance can be similarly denoted by = or (>= and <=).

The exact dominance between all alleles at a locus is not always known. For instance, the order of dominance of all the alleles at the St-locus (almond, qualmond, faded, frosty) have not been properly documented as far as I know.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

What you said is true only for autosomal genes. Since hens only have one functional sex-chromosome they will show all the recessive sex-linked mutations in their phenotype even with the single copy. The recessive sex-linked mutations are: dilute, pale, reduced, brown, lemon (extreme dilute), and web-lethal. 



lockentauben said:


> To begin explaining genetics our starting point is the most common colour and pattern in the wild species which we call 'wild type'. It's blue in colour and barred in pattern, ( blue bar ), it has clean legs, no crest and no mutations. All other colours and patterns are mutations from 'wild type'.
> 
> When we say a gene is recessive or dominant we are comparing it to wild type. If a gene is a recessive gene it needs two copies to show on wild type and if a gene is dominant it only needs one copy to show.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

lockentauben said:


> Does dirty improve black? And make it shiny?


It can, though the iridescent gene is also required to make the shiniest blacks, and is also improved by grease quills.

The sheen on blacks can _sometimes_ also improved by the addition of a single dose of some bronze factor like kite or lebannon.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I thought I would give a device I use to help me remember the loci that are on the sex chormosome:

BaSTaRD -> 
B - locus -> Color 
ST - locus -> Almond, qualmond etc
R-locus -> Reduced and rubella
D-locus -> Pale, dilute, extreme-dilute (lemon)

There is only one other chromosome in pigeons that have linked loci -
COS -> (Yes, trigonometry is everywhere!)
C-locus - Pattern
O-locus - Recessive Opal
S-locus - Spread


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

*Incomplete dominance*

No one has posted a tip in a while... So here goes!

I thought I'd talk about incomplete (or partial) dominance.

Incomplete dominance, partial dominance and co-dominance all differ somewhat in their formal definitions, but they all imply that the phenotype of the heterozygous genotype is different of the phenotypes of the homozygous genotype. 

We have quite a few such dominant genes in the pigeon gene pool (in fact, there are few complete dominant genes in pigeons). As an exercise I leave it to the reader to think of one completely dominant gene in pigeons (don't post an answer, you'll spoil the question for everyone else  )

Grizzle, indigo, dominant opal, ice, archangel bronze and dominant white-flight all fall into this category. Even ash-red and almond could fall into this category.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

How does incomplete differ from partial? What do you mean by formal definition?

And can you explain co-dominant


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Formal definitions are what the scientist use, we use slightly looser definitions...

Incomplete dominant:
The heterozygote has phenotype _intermediate_ to that of either homozygote - Grizzle is a good example.

Co-dominant:
The phenotype of the heterozygote shows expression of both genes (the heterozygote phenotype still differs from either homozygote phenotype) - This one is hard to prove for pigeons since we don't know the exact protein synthesis pathways and how the genes affect them. Ash-red males split for blue are a weak example, since they show both red and blue pigment (the blue is in the flecks only).

Since genes like indigo and dominant opal fall in neither of these categories, I use the term partial dominant for them. It isn't quite a formal definition, but I use it to explain dominance relationships where the other terms do not exactly fit (or cannot be scientifically tested at the moment). Eg.

The heterozygote indigo (In//in) looks different from the either homozygote (in+//in+ and In//In), but the phenotype for het, indigo is not intermediate (which is the definition for incomplete dominance), nor is the expression exactly a combination of the expression of both genes (definition of co-dominant).

For the most part, the three terms are interchangeable (or indistinguishable) for most breeders. We care what the bird looks like. Leave the complicated definitions to the experts.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Incomplete dominant and partial dominant are the same thing, just different ways of saying it. Partial is a little quicker to type and say


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I want to put white bars on a black bird. What do I need to do? I'm in the process of making black frillbacks here in NZ. As a side project I want to breed white bars onto Frillbacks, when Im done I can put them together.

Do I need more than just toy stencil for the best effect? I borrowed 3 birds from a friend, they all look toy stencil but could have frill stencil also. Do I want Ts1 and Ts2? Would dominant opal help in any way?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

You need toy stencil (Ts1 and Ts2 - and probably ts3 too - if you want proper white bars with black edges on a blue bird).

You won't be able to breed black birds with white bars using dominant opal, since dominant opal changes the color of the black.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

How do the black birds with white bars get created


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Black birds with white bars, like starlings, are genetically blue barred, spread, and toy stencil (at least heterozygous for both Ts1 and Ts2 s well as homozygous for ts3). Dominant opal is not part of the genotype of such birds.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

so none of my f1's will have white bars? but they may be bronze?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I just worked out some f1s may inherit white bars.

They only need to be hetrozygous Ts1 and hetrozygous Ts2 to show white bars


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

thepigeonkey said:


> I just worked out some f1s may inherit white bars.
> 
> They only need to be hetrozygous Ts1 and hetrozygous Ts2 to show white bars


As far as I know they need to be het Ts1, het Ts2 and definitely homozygous for ts3. The effects of the recessive ts3 is a definite requirement. Many people have bred F1 toy stencil birds, and none of them had white patterned F1s. The pattern in the F1 is usually pinkish or bronze.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Your F1's will have some bronzing in the bars, if any at all.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Do you still have Frillbacks Becky?

Any colour projects going on with any of your breeds? Or you spending most your time with racers, feedinding, cleaning, training ect?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Rudolph, how many birds do you normally have? And are they all homers? you must have all colours. Do you race, show or both?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

thepigeonkey said:


> Do you still have Frillbacks Becky?
> 
> Any colour projects going on with any of your breeds? Or you spending most your time with racers, feedinding, cleaning, training ect?


Yes, but I knocked back to 2 pairs. A red grizzle and 3 "white grizzles" in different stages.

Right now my only color project is putting ice in my racers.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

thepigeonkey said:


> Rudolph, how many birds do you normally have? And are they all homers? you must have all colours. Do you race, show or both?


I try to keep forty or less, but during the breeding season (which just started here in South Africa), I sometimes have up to 60, until I feel comfortable with selecting the best of the youngsters. I started breeding early (in late winter) so I have 3 pairs of squabs already.

I don't have all the colors, currently have the following mutants in my 'pure' homers: check,T-pattern, blue, brown, indigo, spread, smoky, sooty, dirty, grizzle, undergrizzle, dilute, recessive red and what I think is kite-bronze. I also have some other informally named mutants dominant white-flight pied, recessive white flight pied, recessive pied, but I am trying to get rid of all the pied genes, they're just a nuisance in my opinion. I would love to get some reduced and almond birds at some point too. I don't race or show, since I just don't have the time, but would like to start showing in a couple of years, when I have the combinations of genes right. 

I do have about 10 birds that aren't homers, or are homer crosses (I am working on archangel bronze homers as well as creating a small, short beaked, long tailed flying breed, just for fun).


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

You don't have ash red? Blue is not a mutant but you know that lol. What about barred birds? 
Im not a big fan of pied genes either, unless its a beard or recessive white/self white.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Can anyone mold their contribution into a genetic tip...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69, I think the genetic tip thing has died unfortunately. 

Heres a tip, Keep good records if conducting breeding tests.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Great advice Evan, good records are indispensable. It gets rather hard to track genes through 10 to 20 generations when you've been breeding for 10 years.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

H'yup, 2 years into pigeons and a memory full of all my birds parents, grandparents and even some great grandparents... I thought, Who need's records...... Well that arrogance soon caught up with me. I now try and write everything down. Even if I think it's irrelevant.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I have two plain head birds which are carrying crest. They have a baby in the nest with a plain head. What are the chances of it carrying the crest gene?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Cr+//cr x Cr+//cr

25% Cr+//Cr+
50% Cr+//cr
25% cr//cr

Since your bird is not crested we leave that possibility out of our equation and the ratio 50:75 (from 50+25) instead of 50:100 (25+50+25). This reduces to 2:3, the bird in question has a 66% chance of carrying the crest gene.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

When moving colour, or other characteristics, to a different breed ensure adequate stock are retained for the breeding programme; back-up birds, and back-up birds to the back-ups! Accidents happen and often a key bird will die or prove to be infertile. Don't be too hasty disposing of earlier cross-breds as they may have some characteristics you require later in the breeding programme.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Cr+//cr x Cr+//cr
> 
> 25% Cr+//Cr+
> 50% Cr+//cr
> ...


This is a good tip in itself - When working out odds we need to remember that odds are used to work out the possibilities of the unknown, As soon as a factor becomes known or visible it can be ruled out therefore changing the odds of a specific outcome(s) occuring.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

indigobob said:


> When moving colour, or other characteristics, to a different breed ensure adequate stock are retained for the breeding programme; back-up birds, and back-up birds to the back-ups! Accidents happen and often a key bird will die or prove to be infertile. Don't be too hasty disposing of earlier cross-breds as they may have some characteristics you require later in the breeding programme.


Great tip. I cannot tell you how many times I broke up a pair, only to have to re-pair them a year or two later, because their offspring got caught by a cat or flew into a wire. If I hadn't kept these birds, my breeding program would have come to a complete stop...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree its a great tip, I learnt the hard way with my brown thief pouters. Had a lovely wee hen down on eggs, Gave someone her father and guess what happened, She flew out the door past me and never came back. It was hugely dissapointing and in the meantime my friend had send the thief cock that carried brown up the the north island so I am back to square one using a crappy brown hen to try get some nice cockbirds to then produce some nice brown hens.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

The converse is also true though. Selection is _extremely_ important. One just cannot let _every_ bird breed. This means you have to keep a lot of birds which you will not be breeding with, just to be sure that you can re-create any losses you might have, if necessary.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

reanimation was successful


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> reanimation was successful


 yes. Now wheres your tip Henk?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Is there a name for a gene which makes a part down the centre of a birds chest?
I'm not talking about chest frills like on owls. Its just a part in the feathers straight down the middle.

I know I keep asking questions and not giving tips but the answers you all give are the tips.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I don't think there is a single gene that causes that. It is probably a combination of factors.

There is a line running from the the breast to the tail that has no feathers. It is quite easy to see it when looking at young birds that are feathering out. For most birds, the feathers on either side of this void covers the bare skin. When breeding, the eggs are touched to the skin in this bare area. This allows for the heat of the body to transfer to the eggs.

Selective breeding can change the position and extend of the bare skin on the breast and rump. Some breeds have more feathers, others less. Some breeds have the bare skin going up higher into the neck (some pouter breeds for example).

I do not think that there has been any research into the genes that modify the parting (as you called it). If you have birds that show such a parting, maybe you could do the research...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

thepigeonkey said:


> Is there a name for a gene which makes a part down the centre of a birds chest?
> I'm not talking about chest frills like on owls. Its just a part in the feathers straight down the middle.
> 
> I know I keep asking questions and not giving tips but the answers you all give are the tips.


Pigeons naturally have a part, comes in handy when brooding eggs. Actually I think all birds have it, where the "brood patch" is.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Pigeons naturally have a part, comes in handy when brooding eggs. Actually I think all birds have it, where the "brood patch" is.


These parts go right up the neck and the plumage on either side has a clear part right the way up so its a little different to the natural part that all pigeons have. 

Rudolph, Don't give him any ideas. The last thing we need is another 20 birds and another project or experiment on our hands.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ah. Then perhaps something related to the chinese owl frill. Their feathers are parted down the neck and parted again on the chest.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

When breeding toy stencil birds like white bars you need atleast 3 different genes.one or two doses of Ts1, one or two doses of Ts2 and two doses of ts3. It is said you can replace Ts1 or Ts2 with some other bronzes.


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

How about genetics of racing homers? What alleles make champion in the racing tests?
*
We all know that pigeons of all kinds inherit the homing instincts.
To be a champion, a pigeon should be able to find the exact direction to its home, and to choose the best alternate routes around it, and to have good physical system (muscles, breathing, energy storage, etc) to fulfill the tasks. How the genetics help a certain homer better than others when all inherit the homing instincts?


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

anhmytran said:


> How about genetics of racing homers? What alleles make champion in the racing tests?
> *
> We all know that pigeons of all kinds inherit the homing instincts.
> To be a champion, a pigeon should be able to find the exact direction to its home, and to choose the best alternate routes around it, and to have good physical system (muscles, breathing, energy storage, etc) to fulfill the tasks. How the genetics help a certain homer better than others when all inherit the homing instincts?


The heart and motor of our performance birds is something no one has truly figured out and probably never will. It's the same in humans. What we can do is try to mate for the best qualities we want and hopefully the bird will use those qualities to the best of its ability combined with its innate desires. 

Just like humans, the heart and mind of a champion cannot be figured out. They just do what they have to do...in my opinion.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

To get the racers we have today people have used all kinds of pigeons from dragoons to ferals. They took all the best traits from these birds, combined them and raced them keeping only the best. Its taken thousands of years to get where we are now though I belive within a few generations you could take traits from performance breeds like high flyers and improve the racers you have.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

Now if i have an almond grizzle hen,with rec. red genes and basic blue genes, mated with a t-check rec. red cock..what combinations will i get for male and female babies???
Picture right here if you need to see one
|
v


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

If the grizzle is homozygous (double dose) all the babies will be hetrozygous (single dose) grizzle. If the grizzle on the hen is hetrozygous then half the babies will be grizzle.
If the hen has one dose of rec red (which she looks) and the cock has one dose (which he could be) then 1/4 of the babies will be recessive red.
If the cock is **** ash red all the babies will be ash red. If he carries blue then half the babies will be blue.
If he is **** t-cheque then all the babies will be t-cheque.
Last of all every cock will be almond and every hen will be non-almond.
Don't ask about the pied markings lol.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

in short you could get 
almonds, recessive reds, ash reds, t-cheques, grizzles. In all combinations. Maybe blues.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

thepigeonkey said:


> If the grizzle is homozygous (double dose) all the babies will be hetrozygous (single dose) grizzle. If the grizzle on the hen is hetrozygous then half the babies will be grizzle.
> If the hen has one dose of rec red (which she looks) and the cock has one dose (which he could be) then 1/4 of the babies will be recessive red.
> If the cock is **** ash red all the babies will be ash red. If he carries blue then half the babies will be blue.
> If he is **** t-cheque then all the babies will be t-cheque.
> ...


At least itll be easy for me to determine their sex just by looking at them
I am quite interested to see what the grizzle will do mixed with doses of almond and red...


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

kingdizon said:


> At least itll be easy for me to determine their sex just by looking at them
> I am quite interested to see what the grizzle will do mixed with doses of almond and red...


They wouldn't look too different to the hen.
Almond and recessive red makes a Deroy which is an ahievement for many people. Solid red with lots of darker flecking. They may need spread too, I'm not sure.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

thepigeonkey said:


> They wouldn't look too different to the hen.
> Almond and recessive red makes a *Deroy* which is an achievement for many people. Solid red with lots of darker flecking. They may need spread too, I'm not sure.


 That'd be nice. I checked out some pictures of Deroy pigeons. Lol, and here i lucked into a good genetic starter base pair for breeding just because those two "looked good together"
I am sitting here wondering what will be tho. I'm glad all the males will look like their mother,but i'm curious as to what the daughters will look like. I'm also wondering if her grizzle is hetero. or ****. I mean i do like the grizzle look,but i want to see what variety these two can produce...I also wonder how many people will want their offspring...i dont think a lot of fanciers want any mixed breeds in their loft..but maybe i can pull it off if their young just look really pretty. I mean they should make good chicos,or loft eye catchers or something youknow?
But are you 100% positive *ALL* the sons will have almond and *NONE* of the females will have almond? lol cuz i really dont want to accidentally name someone out of their gender


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Kingdizon- How do you know the hen is grizzle? I don't think she is actually grizzle.....Almond will cause that grizzle look. I don't think grizzle is all that common in RTs. Also do you know for sure the WOE hides rec. red? He looks ash red t-pattern to me. In any case, it will be fun to see what they produce and you will probably get a variety of colors as Pigeonkey mentioned. Here is a pic of two nestmates.....one almond and one not so you can see how easy it will be to tell the "girls from the boys" even in the nest. Notice the difference in the down (yellow "hairs")


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