# Strange Green Poops....thoughts ?



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hey, Hey...everyones favorite subject.

Ivette is on a roll here in SF...2 rescued pigeons in 2 weeks 

This one seems to be an adult, fairly robust....but was limping badly and couldn't seem to fly.

I have been giving supportive care and the bird is on medacam and some handfeeding. She's underweight...not alarmingly, but quite obviously. Lethargic, but not fluffed and her eyes aren't tired or sick-looking. She is mentally alert.

Today her strength seems up...she is using the leg more. I did an inspection of her, I manipulated her wings and feet...no abrasions, scars, scabs, or anything funny. Mouth looks OK. Wings and feet/legs seem to move fine...although the bad one seems weak to respond/grasp to touch.

She is better than 24 hrs ago...but still weak and inactive.










She has these weird colored poops...that is the strangest thing about her. The part which would usually be white...is a bright sorta green. No white to be found. Has been this way consistently for the past 24 hrs.

Does this look familiar ? Signify anything ????


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah. Better get her on an antibiotic combo if she's not already on one. Start with Baytril/Metronidazole and give it a few days. What's the respiration rate?

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's a good example of "biliverdinuria", by the way. It means that there's an infection in the organs, which ain't good. Sometimes they don't last long when they get like that.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Jaye,

In the picture you posted, are those undigested seeds in the droppings?

fp


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Not undigested seed...just seed which she never ate which was on her cage floor.

She is pooping quite a bit since I started handfeeding and, besides the fact that what should be white is green....the poops look like poops.

OK...so.......any suggested treatment ????

What meds treat organ infections ?

Have you successfully pulled a bird through this ????

....or am I in over my head and should I just get her to a vet ASAP ????


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

What meds do you have on hand?

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Baytril and Metronidazole first. Maybe Doxycycline later.

Yes, have pulled several through like that but you have to understand that there are a few different possibilities for biliverdinuria including Chlamydophila (old names: Chlamydiosis; Ornithosis; Psittacosis... ). Paratyphoid, E. coli and others can do it, too.

Respiration rate (breaths per minute)?

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've treated more of these birds than I can count and have rarely lost a bird.
You might have one known devil or you may have a "cocktail" of illnesses confronting you in this rescue. Most shotgun approaches include a medley
of known disease remedies in addition to parasitical and bacterial infections.

What meds do you have on hand? Perhaps I can be of help, I think we are within close proximity...

fp


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Check your email.

Here's the link I sent you.

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I have cipro, clavamox..... and medacam only. he has rec'd 2 doses of cipro...but it sounds like this is the wrong stuff, eh ?

I can get me some fish-zole locally tom'w AM...that's metronidazole, right ? 

I will need someone to tell me how to dose it, though.

I just ordered some ornacycline online...it seems to have worked for some other members here, no ? But I won't have it for 2 days. 

Charis, thanks. FP, I pm'ed you back.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, not the wrong stuff--Cipro's equal to Enrofloxacin. When you give them Enrofloxacin, about 40% is converted into Cipro in the liver anyhow.

Yes, on the FishZole. Metronidazole is good for getting some things in the liver and works well in necrotic (dead & dying) tissue.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jaye said:


> I have cipro, clavamox..... and medacam only. he has rec'd 2 doses of cipro...but it sounds like this is the wrong stuff, eh ?
> 
> I can get me some fish-zole locally tom'w AM...that's metronidazole, right ?
> 
> ...


Cipro is the human equivalent to Baytril so this would be just fine. Clavamox/Augmentin is frequently used for animal bites and may be fine in 
terms of a shotgun approach for this bird though possibly an unnecessary
escalation without supporting symptoms/lab work.

I have worm and coccidial overburden one time treatments to which an antibiotic course of approach for bacterial and trichomonal infection combo may be pursued.

fp


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, thanks folks.

So....I should continue the Cipro, then ?

Next Q: can I give Cipro and Fishzole simultaneously ? (not at the same time, obviously....but I mean: can a bird be on both meds during the same time period ? Or is that lethal ?) My recollection is that I once had my Meyers Parrot, Baby (RIP) on both for a particular infection and that was OK. Pidgey, you suggest this double-treatment, yes ? Also, my recollection from a conversation w/ my vet is that one should not give Cipro and Clavamox simultaneously.

If yes, then should I start her on Fishzole now, too ?

If NO, then should I stick with the Cipro.... and get her on anything else (such as the ornacycline) ? Or just keep going w/ Cipro.

(Oh, Pidgey, BTW...respiration seems completely normal...not fast, not slow, not labored. Sorry, I am a bit jumpy about this so I misread some of your posts....)


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, give her the Cipro and the Metronidazole at the same time if you want. Literally.

Pidgey


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*Update*

OK...got it worked out. Thanks folks....I luv y'all 

She's now on Cipro, Metronidazole, and Medacam. She seems quite stable.

Hanging in there. Poops are same (but I only just gave the first dose of metro a few hours ago; she has rec'd 3 doses of Cipro to date). But she is pooping regularly and regular amounts, so her system is still working to that degree. Am handfeeding her about 15cc of Kaytee/day....just to keep her sustained and hydrated. She eats a bit of seed, not much; maybe like a half-teaspoons worth. Pretty much just sits there most of the time, in her carrier. She is conscious and alert. Breathing seems peaceful and unlabored. She surely is in less discomfort than when Ivette found her...the Medacam is for sure alleviating pain.

Any thoughts on how long this may take to see things moving in the positive direction ? What would be signs that things are turning around ? Would the green in the poop disappear, eventually ????

Any other suggestions ? More meds of some sort...or wait and see how she reacts to these ? Basically, all I have left here is some wormer (Baycor, I think it's called)....but she seems to be in a bit of a state to try wormer on her now. I will be getting the Ornacycline come this weekend. Should I launch that as well...or is it too many meds at once ???

(Coccidial overburden...what's that , btw ????)

I know, medicating....it's hard to say since we aren't sure what is causing the symptoms......


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The sign you're looking for is if those green urates go back white. The word "biliverdinuria" literally means "biliverdin" in the urine (-uria). Biliverdin is a green pigment (that's the "verdin" part--Latin based) that forms in birds under certain circumstances. It's the dark blue-green that they get in a bruise. In this case, it was more than likely coming from a disease process in the kidneys. You might see it change back from that hideous color with a couple of days or it might take up to a week, hard to say. I wouldn't use a wormer yet, especially if it was one that was a burden on the kidneys.

Pidgey


----------



## teebo (Jul 7, 2006)

Jaye said:


> OK...got it worked out. Thanks folks....I luv y'all
> 
> She's now on Cipro, Metronidazole, and Medacam. She seems quite stable.
> 
> ...


 i thought Medacam was a painkiller? thats what my 13 yr old shepherd is on.


----------



## teebo (Jul 7, 2006)

what is the best wormer to use on a pigeon?


----------



## teebo (Jul 7, 2006)

didnt know meatcam could be used for birds


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*SilverGurl....rest in peace*

Well....she died while I was tending to her this evening.

I had given her her meds and was handfeeding some Kaytee as usual.

She wasn't taking it down very well. I got about 3 cc into her then decided to warm it up a bit more.

I placed her in her carrier, wrapped in her towel, and went to kitchen . came back 2 mins later...she was half out of the towel, keeled forward. I picked her up thinking she had just situated herself funny. Her neck was limp and her eyes half closed. No breathing.

Took me a minute to admit to myself. Held her close to me and felt the last of her warmth.

She is buried in my yard, along with other ferals and other birds from days and years past.

At least on the medacam and in a warm and soft place...she didn't die terribly in the street...nor did she suffer much pain in her stay with me. And she watched a final, beautiful sunset out my bedroom window to close her last day.

I am a bit shocked....with the meds having begun and the supportive care...I figured we were getting out of the danger zone....

I tried, folks. Thanks for your help.

She's in a better place now.

G


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I am so very sorry Silver Gurl has passed. Bless you for trying Jaye. Sad to say that I very well know your thoughts and feelings when you came back and saw that she was gone .. been there and done that way more times than I care to really think about. Thank you for giving Silver Gurl your love and care and a safe and warm place in which to spend her final time.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jaye,




Ohhhhhhhhhhhboy...

Sorry to hear...



I have had a few who were making the light OD-Green sort of Urates, and I failed to save any of them.


I do not know what medicines would be best to try 'next time', but those I had tried in the past, did not effect a cure for this syndrom/illness not it's symptoms.


I am leaning toward say, a 'Coctail' of Docycyline-Tylosin, Metronidazole, and Divet...should I encounter this again.

But, Amoxycillin is nagging on my thoughts also.


Be nice if one of us here at PT could get some tests done, too, next time we enounter this.


Metronidazole-Baytril had not saved the one's I'd had anyway...in fact, the one's I've gotten in who were making the pale green or pale yellowy-green Urates did not last 24 hours, even with warmth, rehydration and or nourishment along with meds.


Whatever it is, it's a 'serious' one...and or ight not even be the same pathogen every time, too.



Good try...



Phil
l v


----------



## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Thank you Jaye for helping her, I was coming back to work from Lunch when I noticed this pigeon, I stop and called Jaye he came to my work in less than 15 minutes, I went to check where I found her, and she was not there so I knew she will be around I started looking and I found her across street in a parking lot, I still remember her, George you are amazing and I know you tried, is just hard not to feel bad, but at least didn't die in that parking lot, I'm so glad she died in a nice and a warm place.

Ivette


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks, folks. You know....my heart is just at:


dammit.


You think about all of the things you could have done, all of the missteps you might have made...and in the end, you never know.

So, we just take some comfort in that....you were at least able to ease your pal into a less horrible, less lonely, less painful passing.

It is, I am sure, something everyone here is familiar with...as TA says.

yes, Phil...I think from now on we should all make a note: bright green urates + emaciated body = immediate trip to avian vet for tests....period.

Maybe it just comes with the territory. Ivor and I, we were on a pretty darn good winning streak here for the past several months....sorta starts making you feel like, if you just get to treating 'em quick enough, & givin' em some love...you can make the save....

But too many unknowns, really. She was a beauty....and she was beyond an adolescent, so...at least she got some time to experience flying and living free, as a feral should.

Thanks for all of your help, Pidgey, TA, Charis, Feral, Phil, and Ivor.


----------



## Ivor (May 12, 2008)

Well Jaye, we didn't see any injured and we just assumed that was not too bad, how we know, hey but you still have the other pigeon and he is doing much better with all your care and dedication. I'm so glad we are a team.

Ivette


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jaye,


Yeahhh...it'd be nice if we could find out a little more about this peculiar symptom ( pale green or yellowish-green Urates, whatever else is to be seen ), and it's implications for treatment.



Sadly, 'Tests' are not always very revealing in ways which help toward any pratical recourse, but, I think it's worth a try anyway.


I think this is a Bacterial issue, but the Bacteria is one which will not leave-off with our usual Antibiotics.


And, at least in the ones I have had here, there is usually little time to try things and see.


Too, this could be a Virus issue, in which case, the Tests would be even less likely to produce anything of value for what to do.


So anyway, my thought, is that the next time I get one of these, I will bring the Bird to the Vet, and bring some fresh fecal/urate samples also, and see what can be determined.


If we can just get into the Ballpark with this one, we can fine tune it from there.


Might be an Avian Hepititis, Liver disease, might be peculiar form of some endoparasite mischeif or unusual strain of Salmonella...might be from drinking Anti-Freeze, I dunno...I just have no idea what the agency is, or what the phases and sequence might be, leading up to where we see these kinds of Urates.


But far as I know, by the time we do see them, the Clock has about run out.



Phil
l v


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, so sorry to read this but when they're pumping out that color AND they're emaciated, it truly is very serious. Frankly, though, I'm not sure that there're any tests that are going to tell you what's causing the bright bluegreen urates as there are several pathogenic causes so it's usually a crapshoot without other symptoms.

Pidgey


----------

