# Urgent! White formation on tongue



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

This is the same pigeon from previous thread. I noticed a clear, big white formation on his tongue, as well as smaller ones on mouthțs roof and throat. 

I think it may be Candida but canker is not excluded. Is canker making such white colonies?








*Video*:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S1Rho6DpBg


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Found on this website that canker in adult pigeons may appear as white, thin formations like at my pigeon:

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/canker.htm


I started threating for canker.

I bought B.S. (Better Digestion) manufactured by Belgica de Weerd:










http://www.pigeonsproducts.com/b-s-better-digestion-150gr-by-belgica-de-weerd-452


It doesn't say on package what contains and from indications appear to be rather for prevention of protozoan infections but from another site that I've visited I remember that contains Ronidazole. Does anybody know if is good to give the pigeon this or better to stay with metronidazole?


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> Found on this website that canker in adult pigeons may appear as white, thin formations like at my pigeon:
> 
> http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/canker.htm
> 
> ...


How many days has he been on metronidazole?
If several days to no effect I would change over, but make sure the dose and directions the pack gives are correct for TREATMENT since you say it is a preventive product.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

ThePigeonGene said:


> How many days has he been on metronidazole?
> If several days to no effect I would change over, but make sure the dose and directions the pack gives are correct for TREATMENT since you say it is a preventive product.


Is the second day. The white formations appeared yesterday. Today they seem a little inhibited.


There are only two possibilities, Candida or Canker. 


Today I decided that is not Candida, which doesn't have such clearly delimited formations (I had a case in the past with a bird that died after having the mouth covered with Candida membranes).

Today, after giving Metro (both by injection and mouth, as the crop works a little slowly) and puting B.S. in water, I noticed the bird looks a little better. What worries me a little is that she is a little cold and avoids light.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> Is the second day. The white formations appeared yesterday. Today they seem a little inhibited.
> 
> 
> There are only two possibilities, Candida or Canker.
> ...


If she has something else over and above the canker, it is certainly a possibility

But the canker will definitely choke the life out of him sooner rather than later so I would concentrate on getting rid of that, unless you have the opportunity to test the bird for other diseases.

I assume you already have him on a heating pad or hot water bottle? Keeping him warm, fed and hydrated is his best chance at getting over this.
Carrot juice is said to help birds recover from viruses so if you think candida is unlikely I would try supplement him with that also. I can't see it hurting him

Since you noticed an improvement on Metro I would definitely stick to metro 
I don't know how safe it is to use the other anti protozoan at the same time with such a weak bird


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

ThePigeonGene said:


> I assume you already have him on a heating pad or hot water bottle? Keeping him warm, fed and hydrated is his best chance at getting over this.
> Carrot juice is said to help birds recover from viruses so if you think candida is unlikely I would try supplement him with that also. I can't see it hurting him


Yes, is in a heated box and on a grill some cm from box' bottom, as her not to stay in her wattery droppings. Poor she, has all the toes gone at one leg and only two toes at the other (from strings).

I'm afraid she may have also Candida and even if she doesn't have, with a slow crop the danger of fermentation is high.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The pigeon eats but doesn't assimilate, it became emaciated. I've read that this is a symptom caused by Hexamitiasis (but maybe can be caused by Trichomonas as well), the bird's digestive system can't assimilate the stark and the solution is to administer dried whey in solution of copper sulphate, as the lactose from whey is absorbed in the lower part of the small intestine:

http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca211p15-71301.pdf


The article is about poultry industry and the use of dried whey and copper sulphate may be a cheaper variant.


Do you think is wrong if I gave the pigeon baby milk (for humans)? I found a product that contains lactose and some vitamins and minerals at human drugstore. Please give me a quick answer as time is precious to save the bird. 


If I don't get any answer I will give the milk anyway, as I didn't find anything on internet about milk being harmful to pigeons (except if is given at poisoned pigeons, as it helps the poison spread in organism).


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

I have never heard of using milk in pigeons
I cannot imagine lactose is good for them, but I have not read anything to the contrary either
People do use greek yoghurt as a probiotic sometimes

But the solution you posted also adds copper sulphate, not just dried whey, is baby milk really a good substitute?

Hemaxititis is killed by metro so whether it is canker alone of hemax also the treatment remains the same

I think you are trying to do too much at once. There is only so much a bird can deal with

You mentioned fermentation in the crop, if there is food in the crop I would try remove it mechanically rather than experiment and add more to the crop.

People here talk about using apple sauce but if you are worried about sugar, perhaps a little ACV very dilute will help empty the crop with a massage

Worst comes to worst I would get a vet to flush out the crop but I know you do not use vets.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The birds eats and makes droppings (the crop isn't blocked, just works slower), but keep getting thinner. So even if the parazite is killed, the metabolic disturbance remains.

I've read that text again and says to not use some kind of milk but only dried whey. Unfortunately, I was not able to find online a store that sells dried whey but I'm going to a big agro-commercial complex and try to find both dried whey and copper sulphate.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

keep the same bird in the same thread or the history is not there. you make this situation already complicated enough from your guessing on the illness. canker is common and shows up when the bird is down as when they have a disease.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Treat for canker.................do not give milk products. Pigeons cannot digest it. If you suspect something else along with the canker, then treat with a wide spectrum antibiotic like Baytril as well. 
spirit wings is right..............you need to keep the same bird in the same thread or it gets even more complicated.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Sorry, can you combine the two threads?

I'm treating for canker but the bird gets worse. Now can't eat anymore, she tries to pick seeds but renounce, as is something that will cause something unpleasantful. I feed her defrosted peas.


About using that combination between dried whey and copper sulphate: is not for killing a parasite, bacteria etc but to fix some metabolic disfunction.



Things go like this:

pathogen or other type of harmful agent > metabolic disorder > symptoms

So is not pathogen > symptoms. 


When we threat a sick animal we try both to kill the pathogen and to corect the disorder it created.



Pathogens (or germs, that is, viruses, bacteria,fungi or parasites) can cause reversible or ireversible disorders / disfunctions. 


Hexiamitiasis (and possibly trichomonas too) cause a disorder that makes the bird not being able to transform the starch in sugar (because of lack of amylase enzyme). Threating with whey + copper sulphate has the effect of the restoration of normal blood sugar level (and body temperature) and recovery of amylase action.




In that article says explicitely that it shouldn't be used any milk product (probably because it can't be digested) but only dried whey in combination with copper sulphate. So I renounced at buying some baby milk and I will try tomorrow to find some ice cream factory or other food factory where I can find dried whey (is not commercialized in stores but only used in alimentary industry). I already managed to get some copper sulphate.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you treat the bird for canker, at the proper dose, with the right med, and give a wide spectrum antibiotic, the bird will be fine. If antibiotics are used, I would also use Nystatin or Simvistatin, or it's equivalent.
You have a way of complicating things and sometimes I think end up giving to many things. This can sometimes cause more harm than good.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Today started to eat hungrily, I hope evrything will be fine.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> If you treat the bird for canker, at the proper dose, with the right med, and give a wide spectrum antibiotic, the bird will be fine.


Except if she has Candida or something else.




> You have a way of complicating things and sometimes I think end up giving to many things. This can sometimes cause more harm than good.


Maybe. On the other hand, simplicity is not a smart method, at least not in curing diseases.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Canker is the most common of the pigeon diseases. It looks like canker. Treat for canker. giving Baytril also will help to cover most bases. If giving Baytril, then one should also use Nystatin for Candida. There ya go!


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The bird keeps throwing out big amounts of translucid, gelatinous mucus. Is this a sign of Candida?















She eats well but is emaciated, the chest-bone is very sharp.




.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I stopped the metronidazole treatment two days ago (yesterday and today) as it seemed not to produce results.

Today I took the bird to analyse and found no parasites (cocci, canker, hexa or worms). I don't think she had canker or hexa, as metro didn't change the aspect of droppings or anything else.


I treated for candida and while the deoposits in mouth are now vanishing, the bird still doesn't assimilate food, although eats normally. Today she ate much grass when I took her to the vet. She liked much in the little garden but because of lack of sugar in blood, she became cold fast and had to keep her in hands. Don't know if she will manage to survive, as I couldn't find dried whey (I will try in one more place tommorow).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You jump around too much with different ideas and meds. The bird wasn't on Metro long enough. What dose did you give? You contradict yourself by saying that you stopped it because it wasn't working, and at the same time, you are saying that the deposits in the mouth are now vanishing. You don't stay with one thing long enough, and you hurt the bird that way. Sure looked like canker in the pic too.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If it was canker and killed by Metro, should have cleared while giving Metro, two days ago. The fact that responded at antifungals YESTERDAY, shows was Candida. 

In fact, was sort of termination of an internal network of fungi. This termination was coming out from the respiratory vent and was growing on tongue, on vent's edge. After giving heavy antifungal (Fluconazole, Itraconazole and Nystatin at the same time), I noticed a milk-white viscous liquid coming from nasal vent in mouth's roof. I suppose was the killed Candida from sinuses. I noticed this two times, few hours after giving antifungals.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How long did you give Metro? It could have left after you stopped the treatment even if canker. It would take more than a few hours after antifungals to make a difference with Candida.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I figured out that that transparent gelatine-like mucus was in fact coming from vent (butt) not from mouth. It occurs periodically and is different from his usual poops: long green "sausages".

Since yesterday, that mucus comes out with a little blood in it. Any idea what can be? She had a big taenia in her that come out after deworming, could other worms remained inside? Today I'm taking her for the second time to analyses (first time was after giving some medicines and the results may not been accurate) but any idea from you will also help.


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