# Please Advise Us On How to Release a Pigeon (NYC, Queens)



## kiichi (Mar 6, 2010)

Hello,

I and my girlfriend picked up a baby pigeon in Flushing, NY about 6 month ago. The bird was sick but he is ok after taking him to a doctor. Since this bird has never seen outside, I concern how to release him back to the nature.










He always tries to sit on somebody's shoulder and picking ears and nose.
That's cute as a pet but our goal is to release him. 

There is a small parking lot area around my house where sometime other birds come, and I'm bit concern to release him in that place because we can not keep opening our apartment's window in case he comes back. 
It seems that the family in the back are feeding birds every morning.











But, are there any suitable locations / facilities that we can ask to do soft-release in NYC area? Is there volunteers / professionals to do that?

I'm also trying to call those people in next week.
http://www.volunteersforwildlife.org/

Whenever temperature gets warm around April, we would like to put him in that place and watch for a day in the parking lot but we are not sure that's the proper way to release a bird (he might come back a couple of time until dissolve into the cloud?).

By the way, she attached her cell number in case someone found the pigeon...









This topic is not really urgent but this is our first time to take care of a pigeon, so I would appreciate any advices, especially in NYC area.

Thank You


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kiichi,

I am in Flushing also. I am a bit concerned about your bird because it sounds like he is tame (6 months is a long time to have kept him). How old was he when you found him?

Volunteers for Wildlife will not take pigeons.

If he is truly tame and cannot be released, would you be willing to keep him?

Please send me an email or PM.

Jennifer


----------



## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Don't be alarmed, but looking at that first pic I think he just took your girlfriend out! Hey it's Queens right, even the pigeons are tough. What I would recomend is getting a small wooden box or crate and keeping it outside your window. Start feeding him in that only, and let him inside less and less. Eventually he will be an outside bird and you can cut down on the feed amount gradually so he looks elsewhere. At one point you can remove the crate. Jim


----------



## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Perhaps you can find a home for him with someone that has birds. It is a very pretty bird.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmm. The pigeon in the photo has a band on its leg. Additionally, how was a cell phone number attached to it? Does the band have the phone number on it? That would explain that. Not sure what the fake lizards have to do with all of this. I don't think attaching a phone number (or anything else) is a good idea. It is a wild animal and does not need to have things attached to it.

Release "him" (actually "it") by holding it in both hands and then letting it go. It was in the wild before you got it and will do just fine there again. If you are not "pigeon people" than you do not need to try and keep it for the rest of its life. Let it have its original life back, as it was intended to have. If it does come back to your location, do not feed it and do not take it "in".

I know this sounds cruel and inhumane, but it is the best way. It will make it as well as any of the other pigeons out there are. Try to release it during decent weather and not in an area where there may be hawks at that moment.

You did a good thing by rescuing it. Now continue to do a good thing by giving it its rightfull life back. Good or bad. That is what it was meant to have.

It will be fine. Pigeons are very adaptable and do not need to be babied or coddled. They are actually very tough.

Good luck to it.


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Please DO NOT release this bird. The bird has been inside with you for the past 6 months and has become human imprinted. This bird now has no fear of humans, or other preditors. Can you imagine what would happen to this bird if it decided to land on the shoulder of a person who hates pigeon.

If you can not keep this bird as a pet, please do a search on this site for "SOFT RELEASE".........you will find all the information and instructions to make the release of this bird successful. You CAN NOT just set this bird free an assume it will be OK.

To release this bird at this point the chances of this birds survival are ZERO!!!! You did not save this little bird to have it killed or die due to your lack of understanding of how to properly release it.

You cared enough to save this bird.........please care enough to release this bird properly to increase his/her chance of survival.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kiichi,

I'm sure you already realize this, but a bird who was raised from a young age indoors will not automatically know how to survive on the outside if you simply "hold it in both hands and then let it go." Your bird has been inside nearly all his life, where he hasn't had to learn where to find food and water or how to evade predators. Simply releasing him (and yes, I realize we don't know the gender, but I am not going to objectify a sentient being by referring to them as "it"; I'd much rather assume a gender, even if it's not the right one) could very well be a death sentence for the bird. 

I've sent you a PM.

Jennifer


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I've sent you a PM as well.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

The bird was born and lived in the wild prior to being obtained by humans. The bird will survive as well as any racing pigeon that is lost. Many many survive on their own. You can see them in the parks and such.

To say zero chance of survival is not giving much credit to the birds nor to nature. Perhaps 40% chance, I could agree with. How much of a chance does the average pigeon in the wild have? 40%?

Actually, all pigeons are going to die at some point.

The "standard" that wildlife workers and experts use, is this.

If a wild animal is coming to a fate of death or mortal injury, due to natural causes. You let nature take its course and do not interfeer. But if the wild thing has been injured by man, or is being harmed by man, you come to its rescue, within the law.

I subscribe to this creed. You do what your conscience tells you to do. I will go by my conscience. Putting the bird in a cage, when it was born a wild thing. In my mind, is unnatural and does a disservice to nature and the wild born thing. Give it a chance to be what it was born to be. A wild pigeon. How many pigeons are found starved to death in a city environment? None. Predators, accidents or sickness may take many for sure. But none starve to death in a city.

I have read about, and experienced many things that survived in the wild when given the chance. Even a hamster born in a cage, in Cincinnati! If they do not survive, it was meant to be dead before you picked it up and removed it from the natural order of things.

Believe me, I am as old a softee as the next animal lover here. But I also hugely respect being free from a cage. For a wild born thing.


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Conditionfreak...........I am not going to get into a debate with you about what is best for this bird. You are entitled to your opinion as well as I.

Here are some statistics for you:

Average life expectancy of wild feral pigeon: 2 years

Average life expectance of pigeon in captivity: 15 years

If birds could talk we could ask them what they would perfer......however they don't...so we must all do what we feel in our own hearts is best for the bird.

I have no intention of debating this issue any further with you!!!!!


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> The bird was born and lived in the wild prior to being obtained by humans.


The bird was born and lived in the wild for *three weeks* before being raised by humans. We are not talking about an adult here.



> The "standard" that wildlife workers and experts use, is this.


If you think the "standard" that wildlife rehabilitators use is to simply release to the wild an animal who was orphaned and raised in captivity by humans once he or she reaches adulthood, I suggest you do some research, because there is NO responsible rehabilitator who will do this.



> How many pigeons are found starved to death in a city environment? None. Predators, accidents or sickness may take many for sure. But none starve to death in a city.


This has nothing to do with anything, but do you not think starvation is a contributing factor to animals succumbing to "predators, accidents, or sickness"?



> I have read about, and experienced many things that survived in the wild when given the chance. Even a hamster born in a cage, in Cincinnati! If they do not survive, it was meant to be dead before you picked it up and removed it from the natural order of things.


Sure, any animal, tame or not, has the chance of surviving in the wild. But that does not make simply releasing an animal outdoors who was born of raised in an indoor environment a responsible act. It would be no more responsible to just release a bunch of feral kittens who were taken off the street at three weeks or age and kept indoors for 6 months than it would be to release a dog or a hamster or a pigeon in this manner.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I don't think you should release if for its been raised by you all of its life and there are plenty of people on pigeon-talk that would give it a good home and spoiled it to death. I for one would love to have it and I would pay for shipping and if you release the piggie and it is bonded to people like it is ---you are sending it to its death--and after all the work you put into it---its time to find a real good home for it...c.hert
Conditionfreak: I understand your philosophy as well but this particular bird is bonded already to people and :"out there" would not have a chance---but I do understand your side of it.......c.hert


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Thank you Jenfer for your support for this bird!!!!!


----------



## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

c.hert...............you are truly an angel. Thank you so much for your offer for this bird.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Iwerden We both know that particular bird would not make it in the wild and it would not be long before it was killed either by a predator or even by people---I saw a bird one time land on someones shoulder and head and they swatted it to death before I could get to them---I screamed and screamed---and could not save it---it was a pigeon..They said they were scared of birds and that was their response and they really were scared and freaked out....I hope our pigeon-talk friend makes the right decisions for this bird and thats all we can hope for and after all they did ask for suggestions because they really care for the bird and it is up to them---I pray this pigeon finds a good home and bless them for caring for it....Thanks for the post...c.hert


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jimhalekw said:


> Don't be alarmed, but looking at that first pic I think he just took your girlfriend out! Hey it's Queens right, even the pigeons are tough. What I would reccomend is getting a small wooden box or crate and keeping it outside your window. Start feeding him in that only, and let him inside less and less. Eventually he will be an outside bird and you can cut down on the feed amount gradually so he looks elsewhere. At one point you can remove the crate. Jim


 Mmmmmmmm- the _idea_ is correct (not the takin'out the GF part ) but this suggestion skips a few very IMPORTANT steps. First off - isn't there a HUGE pigeon rescue organization in NYC ? Determine the feasibility of releasing a bird which has been kept for 6 mos - that's a long time. If feasible then you MUST MUST MUST do a *"soft release"* method (did I mention you MUST do it this way ? - to even give your buddy a decent chance at becoming a feral). There are threads here on soft release - do a quick search - if you are still unclear please PM me. Given that there's that flock near you - you may be well set up for doing soft release. *But again - the BIG Q is whether your pal is even releasable due to the human bonding.* Also - find the thread here entitled "to release or not" - that's a good one too. If not deemed releasable - find your buddy a loft\aviary situation.

And BTW - I concur with lwerden & chert - conditonfreak is incorrect - at the moment your pal is totally unreleasable - and if you chose to start a soft release method - _and it was appearing *not* to be giving the typical sought-after results_ _*during the process*_ - your pigeon wouldn't stand a chance in h#ll of surviving in the feral world.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

lwerden said:


> Conditionfreak...........I am not going to get into a debate with you about what is best for this bird. You are entitled to your opinion as well as I.
> 
> Here are some statistics for you:
> 
> ...


Good. Now let's go round up all of the ferals and keep them at our homes so that they all live 15 years. To hell with the natural order of things. Cradle to grave, the Obama way.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Many pigeons fed in parks are bonded to humans. Yet they survive when the humans are not around. They are not swatted to death, with the rarte exception of sick people that get a kick out of it.

Y'all do not give the pigeon near enough credit. It will survive as well as any other pigeon out there. They are amazingly adaptable. Baby birds do not need to be taught to back up and deposit their poop out of the nest. They know from instinct. They do not need to be shown the way home from a distance. They know from instinct. They also do not need to be shown how to eat and drink. They know from instinct.

As I previously said. Each person should do what their conscience tells them to do. Me? I will give it freedom. Freedom is worth a whole lot more than an extended life. I would rather be free for twenty years, than a prisoner for a hundred years. Life isn't about quantity. It is about quality.

But, that's just me. Maybe I should be living in Texas. Live free or die works for me.

While I am on a small rant, I would like to say that putting you 'GIRLFRIENDS" cell phone number on the pigeon is just dumb. Especially in NY. But dumb in any location. What is going to happen if at 1 pm on a tuesday, she gets a call that the pigeon is in the park with a broken leg and the caller can't wait long for her, to show her where it is at? Is she going to run down there and meet some stranger in the park? Or at his apartment? Or pay a ransom? Just not a good idea, IMO.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

While you are ranting which is good and I will say something here in defense of myself--I actually saw this happen and it killed the pigeon at a bus stop on my way to work and to share another sad affair with you and I certainly dislike sad affairs to share but sometimes they are necessary for people and especially with this affair: One time young people rented a house and in the spring time they killed 4 humingbirds by swatting because they thought they were big bugs---yes swatting kills things and yes this pigeon died who tried to land on their head or shoulder and yes I saw it with my own eyes and cried the whole day at work---people are sensitive---we are different---you are different---I am different---we need to learn to accomodate different views about things and like I said I do understand your philosophy and yes this pigeon was killed by being swatted to death by freaked out people who were afraid of birds....c.hert


----------



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

But... pigeons who have lived their entire lives free are different from pigeons raised in an apartment. It's like comparing a dog who has lived its entire life on the street to a pet that has always been a pet. Seriously, dogs are equally or more instinctive than pijjies and they do not survive well. We, in Argentina, have lots of stray dogs. You can easily tell an abandoned pet from a lifelong stray. They do not know how to cross streets (equal to pigeons escaping from predators?), they do not know how to approach people, they do not know how to tell if a human is friendly or not, they do not know how to find food (and, more than usually, they starve to death). Lifelong strays do.
Also, birds aren't 100% instinctive. There are LOTS of things they learn from their parents or other birds.
By the way: some pigeons need to be taught to eat and drink. One of mines didn't until I shoved her beak into the water a couple of times. And some people's rescues learn to peck when their rescuer teaches them.
I personally would prefer being in jail the rest of my life than die tomorrow, free. BUT we are not talking about a JAIL here, we are talking about a bird who likes human company. If this pigeon was bonded... well, I'd rather be locked up with my partner than be on my own, "free".
Plus, yeah. I would run to the park where the bird is, I wouldn't seriously doubt it. Or I'd send another protectionist if I can't go. I bet many of us would be willing to pick it up.


----------



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

c.hert said:


> yes swatting kills things and yes this pigeon died who tried to land on their head or shoulder and yes I saw it with my own eyes


PS. I don't think he's arguing that, I think he's saying it's something unlikely to happen.

Also, I forgot to add: from the birds we rescue, we make up from the ones ran over in the traffic, killed by pets, etc.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

c. hert. I find it amazing that someone can swat four hummingbirds. I have a hummingbird feeder right outside the window of my home office (where I am sitting now), and have never seen something as fast as a hummingbird, when it comes to dodging things coming at them. They are truly faster than a blink of an eye. I have witnessed them go "at" each other, apparently over territorial or food fights. They can dodge and move like lighting. It is an amazing sight to behold, watching them zoom at each other, yet the "other" making a lighting fast evasive manuever. I should do a video sometime. Try swatting a fly with your hand. Hummingbirds are faster I believe.

Now if you are saying the birds were actually in someones apartment and not outside (which would be extremely rare). Then maybe I will buy it. But even then, you would have to use a rolled up newspapar or fly swatter and not just be reacting to a nuisance bug (perceived bug) and using your hand. But outside? No way. Especially not four of them.

But, we are losing the focus here, of the original question.

By all means do a "soft release", if that is what you are comfortable with. But DO a release. It was born in the wild and meant by God (or nature, depending on how you view this sort of thing), to die in nature. It was not EVER intended by nature to die from old age. When it dies in your apartment, it is removed from the food chain, which nature is structured for and depends on. When it dies in nature, it carries on the food chain. That was the PURPOSE it was born for.

Or do I have that wrong?

And as for living in prison, or dying tomorrow. I'm ready to go. Hence the age old saying, "they'll never take me alive".

Here is a thought. Let the pigeon decide. Put it on your balcony with feed and water, and let it decide to stay there or fly away on its on. I bet you it wants to soar. If I could fly, that is what I would do. If it comes back daily or just stays. Then keep feeding it. If not, then accept it.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am assuming that you already know this because you were early on in the thread and just writing for people reading the thread later on. I do not own this pigeon and it is owned by Kiichi out of NYC Queens and they are considering wheather to release it or not and at this point I offer it a home because it is people bonded and flys on peoples head and shoulders---they saved it and raised it---in my opinion the bird will not make it in the wild because I actually saw one die by swatting as well as 4 humingbirds as fast as they are and my friend Diane owned the house they rented but this is not my pigeon and I am curious on how the owners decide the decision....This is not Ripleys believe or not here and this is what I saw and I guess whether you believe it or not or debate it at this stage--thats strickly up to you...I hope I can adopt the piggy because I have been looking for one to adopt and I would pay for shipping and I have people that are willing to help me with this new shipping to me--its scary for me for I never shipped a bird but I do have a offer of help with the no how and the bird would have 15 other wild pigeons that I helped and can't be released from my loft as well as 45 other pigeons...c.hert


----------



## kiichi (Mar 6, 2010)

Hello folks,

I would like to thank everyone who gives us a lot of suggestions / advices, and I would like to continue the discussion as far as you allow me.
I noticed that my plan about releasing a pigeon was too optimistic and I'm glad that I started a topic in this forum. I also understand conditionfreak's point about wildlife.

c.hert, I really appreciate your gentle offer, and can we hold on our decision while I speak to my girlfriend about this issue? Please keep in touch!

I would like to answer to questions to make my situation clear:

1. The pigeon is tamed. He comes to sit on shoulder if you take him outside of the cage. He does not run away from us. But he shows some interests on other birds outside of the window.

2. I need to find a way to release / find a home for him because my apartment does not allow pets. 
I would consider a bird is not going to be a problem like dogs or cats but that's just my opinion. 
The contract says that tenants are not allowed to have "any pets". My room is on ground floor so noise does not go down but may be going up. 
Landlord might say No for even small animal like a bird but I'm not going to ask him for no reason. No one find the fact that we have a pigeon yet (I hope). 

3. We kept him for 6 month because we found him in last September. Then, winter season arrived and we could not do anything while it's snowing.

I gotta go away for while but I'll come back to this thread by tomorrow. I'm going through a bunch of links about soft-release as my homework.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/to-release-or-not-to-release-10874.html
http://nycprc.org/ToSoftRelease.html


Kiichi


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes, I know you are not the original poster and do not have this pigeon.

I am only offering my opinion here. It is not gospel. Just my opinion. That is what the original poster asked for.

I must say that people have a tendency to say things like "I need a Pepsi" or other such "need" thing. They also say "can't" when they actually mean "do not want to" or "won't". I am referring to your statement about you "can't" release your pigeons. You actually mean you "won't" or even "shoudn't", but not that you "can't". I understand completely that most (actually all) would not survive in the wild. But none of us or them are going to leave this earth alive.

Unless you are an astronaut, or an alien abductee.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I truly wish the best for this pigeon, as I do all life. But I do treasure and cherish freedom, versus being caged. I do have prisoner pigeons, as many here do. But they are domesticated centuries back, and were not born in the wild or born to be wild. They were bred, born and raised by humans. This pigeon in this posting, was bred and born in the wild. If at all possible, it should be returned to the wild. As hazardous and dangerous as the wild can be. As someone else mentioned, this bird is supposed to have an average life span of two years. By nature. When you get an average of two years, that means that many have gone sooner, to make the average two years. Two years is not the minimum, but the average.

I've beat this dead horse all I can.

Do what your conscience tells you to do. Do what you are comfortable with. Another home. Hiding in your apartment closet. In a cage. Or with its brothers, sisters, cousins and parents for two weeks, two years, or ten years.

But whatever you do, remove the cell phone number from the band, and put your own (males #).

Good luck to the little thing and you.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I cannot release my wild pigeons because they are special need pigeons- one foot- 1/2 wing : one half blind : one no tongue (there are side effects to this as far as flying is concerned and feeding itself: one spayed legs : one healthy but keeps coming back home and usually when does it is sick and another in my house right now waiting for a decision on what to do with its hanging wing from the university updates and xrays that were sent....another pigeon has no tail feathers at all and believe me out of 15 there are about 5 or 6 healthy ones that are just too friendly with people because I saved and raised them as babies. All the birds healthy that I can release I do and over the years there has been a lot of them--soft ---release-----This is my family ---and I love my birds and everyone of them has a name---and if I must say they are spoiled rotten but they spoil me too with their love and getting all around me when I feed them on my loft floor--what a family I have----.c.hert


----------



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

I'll have to agree with conditionfreak this time, do what your conscience tells you to do.

I'd personally release it if I find it a good candidate. It is indeed imprinted, but we can't actually see how imprinted it is. I've released my birds which were moderately tame with a VERY soft release, and in a nice place, with a flock that has one feeder (and they are tame with said feeder only). Some weeks away and they are still alive. Try the soft release method and, if a month away from where you started to take it out to socialize with other birds, it doesn't show any kind of reaction when the other birds fly away from you, then I think that the best is to put him up for adoption. But you must stop being a benign being for him. Not bad either, but neutral. Feed him and limit your contact to what is strictly necessary.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

c.hert said:


> I cannot release my wild pigeons because they are special need pigeons- one foot- 1/2 wing : one half blind : one no tongue (there are side effects to this as far as flying is concerned and feeding itself: one spayed legs : one healthy but keeps coming back home and usually when does it is sick and another in my house right now waiting for a decision on what to do with its hanging wing from the university updates and xrays that were sent....another pigeon has no tail feathers at all and believe me out of 15 there are about 5 or 6 healthy ones that are just too friendly with people because I saved and raised them as babies. All the birds healthy that I can release I do and over the years there has been a lot of them--soft ---release-----This is my family ---and I love my birds and everyone of them has a name---and if I must say they are spoiled rotten but they spoil me too with their love and getting all around me when I feed them on my loft floor--what a family I have----.c.hert


c. hert: I am not a religious man. However, I do want to say God Bless you for what you do. I love pigeons. I love all of Gods/Natures creatures. They are all special in their own ways. From a worm to an elephant. Heck, I even love the hawks (sort of, in a way, kinda). Thank you for what you do for the birds. 

I do the same. I have wrote on here about some of them Like the frozen buzzard I warmed up for a few days during the worst ice storm we have had since I have lived here. It was very rough. It's wings were covered in a half inch of solid ice. It couldn't open them. I released him/her after putting it under a heat lamp two feet away. It took a couple of days to thaw out because I didn't want to cook it. I think I see it circling with others over my property sometimes, but my wife says there is no way I would know one from another. It is just the way it circles, different from the others. It lingers a little longer. But she is probably right, as usual. It's nice to think about though.

Again, thank you and those like you that help the little critters.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I really appreciate that Thank you...That buzzard is probley your buzzard you said and at least believe that or another one just like it. I saved a morning dove and every year just before migration it comes back to my garage roof with its friends and makes a chirping noise and I give it a diamond dove noise back and they all take off like a bat out of ---- it's been three years now and I just know it is my dove and it is beautiful what an adventure we had....I actually get tears in my eye when I see it and I bet you do too even if you keep it a secret...Thanks for the nice message...c.hert


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

First of all condition freak--"Live Free or Die" is New Hampshires motto, not Texas! 

And you have already given your opinion. To keep giving it is being argumentative, rather than helpful. This bird was raised in captivity, and therefore is not acclimated for living in the wild. He knows nothing of predators, how or where to find food, or anything else that a bird raised wild would know. He knows no more than a loft pigeon would know if lost out there in the wild. And please don't try to tell me that he will be fine, as I have a loft full of lost birds that came from lofts and were lost. They come in starving, or sick, or having been attacked by hawks. They don't even know to get out of the way of a hawk. I have a king, that when a hawk went after him, he just stepped to the side and didn't flee. Many of these birds come in half dead from starving because they didn't recognize food that wasn't served up in a dish. You believe that all that they know is instinct. Well, you are wrong. Much of what they do to survive is learned from their parent birds, and from their flock. These people cared enough to save this little guy, and keep him through the winter to give him a better chance. Putting him out there now gives him little chance of survival. Finding a good home for him, maybe in a nice loft and aviary with other birds would be the kindest thing that could be done for him. Now I know you will argue this opinion, as you have argued with all the other opinions given here, but that really isn't necessary as you have already been heard, and it is very clear how you feel. 

BTW- hummingbirds can be swatted. They are nosey little guys. The first time I ever saw one up close, it came right up in my face. I too thought it was a huge bug and went to swat it. The person who I was visiting grabbed my arm in midair screaming "NO! THAT'S MY HUMMINGBIRD!" If she had been just a bit slower, the bird would be dead.


----------



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> Heck, I even love the hawks (sort of, in a way, kinda).


Hawks are beautiful, haha, I've always loved them. But I understand why you pigeon people dislike them.

I'm happy you two have come to an "agreement" respecting each other's point of view and finding a common point in them


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha

That is some quick friend you have there Jay3.


Now how again does the parent bird teach the young bird about hawks, in the wild? So many myths. So little time.

Pigeons raised in a loft, that have never seen a hawk, know to avoid them I have witnessed that myself. A pigeon raised in a cage in a home also knows this. It is instinctive.

But....I will leave this thread alone

Until the next person comes on here and addresses me.

If you don't want me to participate any further. Then stop addressing me. Fair enough?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In the wild, when one of the flock sees a predator, the whole flock take off as one unit, quickly. The young pigeon is taught this behavior. One who does not know it, and just sits there is lunch! This is a learned behavior. Also why they live in flocks. More eyes to watch the skies.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> If you don't want me to participate any further. Then stop addressing me. Fair enough?


 - really ? really ? _You'll really stop_ continuing along here if we all stop addressing you ? Ok - if you will actually _keep your word and do that _- I am pretty sure this will be the last time anyone addresses you in this thread (it's just a bit rude to hijack someone else's thread - these folks came here for help & info - not to get embroiled in someone else's uninformed pontificating). What we are all being subjected to here is a self-absorbed bunch of wordspray. Your opinion is in the minority, and reflects a significant lack of understanding- more experienced folks than you have already made very cogent arguments against what you are suggesting. Your moralizng rationalizations are off-mark and do not reflect a good knowledge of pigeons whatsoever, yet you continue to forge ahead - intent on keeping your digressive argument going, ad infinitum. Thank goodness the folks who came here for help are taking the time and investigating the pertinent info on this site (kudos to the both of you for that !)


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha. really?...really?...Here you are spotting off at the mouth about me spouting off at the mouth. Are you right because we disagree? Are you participating in a thread hijack? Do you know everything about everything, or is it just this topic?

I believe that wild animals need to stay wild, and not domesticated for their sake. Only for our uses, and I am against even that in principal. Take your irritation and go elsewhere. You rebuke me for hijacking this thread, yet the original poster thanked me and others for our imput, and in fact asked that it continue. Here is a quote from the original poster ("I also understand conditionfreak's point about wildlife"). Who runs the thread, the original poster or you? Self appointed guardian of all and everything. Are opinions that differ from yours (or anyone elses) forbidden? No one here cares for living things more than I do. Many may match me in that regard, but none (I repeat: NONE!) exceed me in that regard. I care about their freedom as much as I do about their health. Apparently you and some others do not. That is your purogative, as is mine to disagree and voice my opinion. I believe it is all about YOU looking so caring and good to other eyes, instead of actually caring for the living WILD things God given gift of freedom. If you do not want me to express my opinions then keep yours to yourself, or simply don't read anything that is written under the heading "Conditionfreak" and you won't have to endure.

I could debate you all day and night long and you will never change (SF, um yea), so as a parting thought in your direction, the majority is not always right. Just look at our current situation here in the U.S. Thank the majority for that.

Yea. Thanks a whole bunch.

To quote a famous thread hi-jacker:

"(In my best Jimmy Cagney accent)

OK...I'm takin' over this thread here....seeeeeeeee ?"

HaHaHa. Too fun. Debating with one hand tied behind my back, just to make it fair (quoting my main man) (bet that got you twisted in a knot) 

P.S. Here is a link to another thread where you "swaggered" and hi-jacked, and got put in your place. Not much different than now. You disappeared then. Hopefully you will disappear now.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/re...rd-population-comment-42580-2.html#post454669

Now, go pound sand.

To the original poster of this thread. I apologize for having a couple of little tit for tats with the peanut gallery.

But again I say. Do what you conscience tells you is the right thing to do. What you are okay with doing. But the longer this bird stays in your care, without an attempt at a release, the harder and more doubtful a successful release becomes.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Conditionfreak -keep the political comments out of your post(s) in future please. 

(Same will go for anyone who may feel tempted to go off on that track!)


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I cleaned it up a little. Thanks for the warning. A shame though. Since politics is so pervasive in every aspect of our lives. But I'll try. I'm positive though, that you will have to remind me again in the future. It's just the way I roll.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't know why this is turning into such an argument. These nice people came here for help. They were kind enough to take in this little one, and raise him, with the intention of returning him to the wild. There are people who are going to believe that everything wild, regardless of the circumstance should be released, and others that have reasons for not releasing. All have a right to their opinion, but after stating that opinion, to argue the thing to death is pointless, and not helpful. There have been many birds released after rehabbing, some have made it, and some have not. All we are trying to do is to point out the pros and cons to the poster. We should not be arguing our opinions. Or beating them into the ground. An adult feral bird has a great chance of surviving if fully healed. They have lived that way and know how. A baby bird raised by humans has not lived that way and unfortunately, not EVERYTHING is instinctual. Some may learn and get along fine. Some may not. But his chances are much less. They are just not street smart. When rehabbers release, they usually try to release them in a group, rather than alone, as their chances would increase in that way. Still, some would make it, and some not. It's up to the poster of this thread to decide after caring for this young bird for 6 months, whether they want to take a chance of him being able to survive in the wild. All we can do is to give them advice and information. I think the problem comes up when we start to make it personal with what we believe the order of things should be. Sometimes it is hard NOT to do that. But it really doesn't help. It would be helpful if there was a rehabber that could release this bird, if that is what they want, along with others, and knowing how that should be done. Some times they make it, and sometimes, being unaware and unlearned they do not. If he is to be released, then helping them to learn how to do this in a way that would give the bird a better chance might be more helpful. All I can say to the poster is Bless you for taking in this young bird and saving his life. That was a kind act. If not for you, he would be dead already. So before you make a decision, just consider all the facts, and do your best for him. I know you are trying to do just that or you wouldn't have come in here in the first place. And please try to understand that these people have very strong opinions, because we each in our own way, care very much for pigeons and just want what is best for him. I wish you luck with your bird, and thanks for doing so much for him.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I think that everyone needs a peanut butter and jelly sandwiche and a glass of milk and just be patient for these things need time for people to work out in their own way. I have sent the Queens people the pertinent information on me and the only thing I can add that if they want pictures of my loft and home I can go out and get one of those disposal camera"s a mail the pictures to them or maybe my girlfriend would let me use her digital and she can print it on her computer and I can mail them or maybe even send them if she knows how to do this or maybe grab a young person with a cell phone-lol for they know more than me about computers...the decision is in the other court at this time so lets have a peanut butter and jelly sandwiche and glass of milk...c.hert


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You should pick up a digital camera. You'd love it. You can save all your pics in your computer, or e-mail them to friends.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am going to then I can learn to send pictures and stuff that I find interesting and I can borrow my friends and what we are going to do is try to get another friend to give us all a lesson but right now she doesn't have something that plugs into her computer I guess and when I take some pictures we will go somewhere and get prints because she said it is cheaper or something and I can get a disk or something---this is all greek to me but someday I will get better at this stuff and be able to send pictures of my loft that I am very proud of as well as my very small house---but we are comfortable and that is all that matters and secure....Thanks for that suggeston...c.hert


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

c.hert said:


> I am going to then I can learn to send pictures and stuff that I find interesting and I can borrow my friends and what we are going to do is try to get another friend to give us all a lesson but right now she doesn't have something that plugs into her computer I guess and when I take some pictures we will go somewhere and get prints because she said it is cheaper or something and I can get a disk or something---this is all greek to me but someday I will get better at this stuff and be able to send pictures of my loft that I am very proud of as well as my very small house---but we are comfortable and that is all that matters and secure....Thanks for that suggeston...c.hert


It's very easy to download them into your computer. The USB cord comes with the camera to plug into your computer. It was all Greek to me a couple of years ago too. Go to Staples or somewhere and ask them. They can explain it to you. You'll be amazed when you find out how easy it is. I print my own pics with my printer, and I like that, but yes, you can copy to a disk and do them at Walmart even. Anyway, you'll enjoy it.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks for the information and I will work on it...c.hert


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lwerden said:


> ........
> 
> Here are some statistics for you:
> 
> ...


 I have seen these figures or similar ones thrown about in various blogs, posts, threads, etc. 


How are these statistics arrived at ? I mean how in the world does one know what the average life span of a wild pigeon is compared to one hatched into say the average fancier in let's say my combine ?

I mean if a guys raises a 100 YB's in his loft in 2010....at the end of the YB season he will have a lot less.....and after the 1st OB season, a whole lost less, especially if the bird has shown no ability. But, to say the average one cared for by humans in captivity, lives on average to the age of 15 years !!! Absolutely ridiculous !!! You would have to have a number of pigeons living perhaps into their 80's or 90's or longer, just so the math would work. 

I can tell you from my personal observation, that in our YB club, maybe 5% or less are still around by year 2. Lucky if 1 in a 1,000 is still around after 10 years. To say that the average one lives to age 15, is simply not factually true. IMHO, The "average" pigeon, hatched in a racing fancier's loft, may have no longer of an "average" lifespan then one born in the wild. Heck, maybe the wild ones have a better chance of making it into their old age.

I am only throwing these thoughts out there, because these statistical "facts" were being used to influence a choice of to release a wild pigeon into the wild, or keep it as a pet. I don't really know if such "facts" are relavant or not. A wild lion may live longer in a zoo, but should we take every opportunity to keep such animals in a zoo, or should we allow such animals to live "free" in the wild ? Well, since people want to be entertained, we build zoos. Zoos were never about the animals, they were for the people. I suspect in most cases regarding "wild" animals, the "needs" and "wants" of people, will 99.9% of the time, be the deciding factor in which choices are made. Visit any local SPCA, and you can see how domesticated animal's needs have been taken into consideration. When they are no longer convenient, they are simply discarded much like yesterday's trash. 

So, if one is going to care for a wild pigeon, and turn it into a pet, the real question is will the owner be willing to possibly committ to the care of this bird, for the next possible 15 to 20 years ? Because if it becomes inconvenient say 5 or 8 or 10 years from now, the ability to release such a bird into the wild is no longer a humane option. I suggest one not allow the emotion of the moment to rule the day. Much like making a baby, it's a long term obligation.

So to the orginal poster, I would think doing a "soft" release by yourself is perfectly OK and workable. I am not an expert on such things, but my experience with pigeons would lead me to think that park pigeons may be willing to show him the ropes. The real question would be his ability to fly. If he can fly, then a life in the park can't be all that bad, and you can even stop by once in awhile and visit. Spring is in the air, and so this should be a great time. Good Luck.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What does the life expectancy in a racing loft have to do with anything? We're not talking about racing lofts here. We're talking about someone keeping the bird as a pet. Big difference. And yes, a lot is dependent on a persons being willing to care for the bird for its lifetime, but I don't see how that has anything to do with how good the birds chances of survival are, being raised by humans and than released. The longer life expectancy was mentioned, and that is just common sense that a bird cared for as a pet, would generally live lots longer than that of a feral.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The point Warren is this...the bird is no longer a wild Pigeon and if it is no longer a wild Pigeon...releasing it at this point is not humane either.
I have 23 years experience working with Pigeon...mostly ferals. They do OK when released if they were raised with other Pigeons and identify with them. the Pigeons that have never seen another Pigeon, don't do well because they just don't understand what being a Pigeon means. These birds are not readily accepted by a flock which makes thier chance at survival slim at best. The members here that don't have experience with ferals don't understand them. They seem to think that some supernatural, extraordinary instinct will kick in once the bird is released and it wil be just...dandy.


----------



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

SPCAs are no example. They are kinda horrible in my opinion, there in the US. Here they are way more humane.

Animals in zoos are a whole different matter. They were not "picked up from the street" because they were orphans. They were raised with the sole purpose of being in a zoo.

The average life span for a pigeon, a PET pigeon is 15 years (and I've seen way older birds). We are not counting in racing pigeons because as you said many are lost in training, races, etc.

However, what is true about your post, is the last paragraph. If the pigeon becomes inconvenient it can be put up for adoption, c.hert wanted to adopt him for example. But it is true that it ought to be a LONG TERM COMMITMENT. It will live as long as a dog, if it's well cared for, or even longer. So you have to think carefully.

We do not know if it's so tamed that it can't be released, we are not there. We'll have to trust kiichi.


----------



## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Charis said:


> They seem to think that some supernatural, extraordinary instinct will kick in once the bird is released and it wil be just...dandy.


That perfectly describes most people I know, LOL.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> They seem to think that some supernatural, extraordinary instinct will kick in once the bird is released and it wil be just...dandy.


Boy, they must be a lot smarter than loft pigeons then, cause lots of them show up starving to death.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jay3 said:


> What does the life expectancy in a racing loft have to do with anything? We're not talking about racing lofts here. We're talking about someone keeping the bird as a pet. Big difference. And yes, a lot is dependent on a persons being willing to care for the bird for its lifetime, but I don't see how that has anything to do with how good the birds chances of survival are, being raised by humans and than released. The longer life expectancy was mentioned, and that is just common sense that a bird cared for as a pet, would generally live lots longer than that of a feral.


Well it was stated as the average life expectancy of a pigeon in capitivity is 15 years. Now, of the 18,000+ lofts in the USA, or the perhaps 1 million lofts world wide, where and how does one come up with average life expectency figures from ? Pretty straight forward question, which really has no bearing on the topic. 

As far as odds of survival, I will have to go back and read the orginal post again. I assumed it was orginally wild, but was rehabbed for six months. I am assuming then, that you feel it's odds are worse because of the treatment ? 

You could be correct, I am not a feral pigeon expert. Of course, I have no idea what the odds are for any wild animal or bird.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well it was stated as the average life expectancy of a pigeon in capitivity is 15 years. Now, of the 18,000+ lofts in the USA, or the perhaps 1 million lofts world wide, where and how does one come up with average life expectency figures from ? Pretty straight forward question, which really has no bearing on the topic.
> 
> As far as odds of survival, I will have to go back and read the orginal post again. I assumed it was orginally wild, but was rehabbed for six months. I am assuming then, that you feel it's odds are worse because of the treatment ?
> 
> You could be correct, I am not a feral pigeon expert. Of course, I have no idea what the odds are for any wild animal or bird.


What part of "We are not talking about lofts, or at least racing lofts" do you not understand? We are talking about pet birds. And I have no idea where they come up with the figures. But they come up with the figures for song birds too. How long lived in the wild versus in captivity. Birding experts come up with these figures. Go ask them how they get them if that intrigues you so. Any animal in captivity lives lots longer for the most part than a wild cousin. I am surprised that you did not know that, as I thought it to be common knowledge. And you really should read the whole post. The bird was about 3 weeks old when taken in to be raised as the only pigeon, by humans. It never lived as a feral. A 3 week old pigeon is a baby. Know's nothing! Same thing as being born in a loft, except that even a bird born in a loft would have the edge of at least having been raised as a pigeon, with other pigeons to identify with. This bird doesn't even know that he is a pigeon. He only knows people. For all he knows, he is a human. Put him with other pigeons, and he would probably be wondering what they were. Never mind joining them and knowing how to survive. HE IS UNARMED TO LIVE IN THE WILD!


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

That is backwards thinking. First off. A pigeon raised as a feral baby, in the wild, by feral pigeon parents. Is more imprinted on being a pigeon than imprinted on being a human.

Anyone who has raised something, be it an elephant, hamster or human baby. Knows that the imprinting occurs extremely early in life. In puppies it is the first 3 weeks. Baby pigeons at 3 weeks old are more advanced in the weaning process, than puppies at three weeks old. Or at least equal. IMO, a pigeon at 3 weeks old, is like a human child at three years old. Of course this particular pigeon was apparently sick at the time it was "saved". But that has nothing to do with imprinting. I bet if you took this so called human imprinted pigeon, and put it with other pigeons today. Within hours, and maybe minutes, it will be flirting with another pigeon of the opposit sex.

We pigeon keepers, can and do ship 4 week old pigeons in the mail, all of the time. That is only one week older than the pigeon in this situation. To think that a three week old pigeon does not, or may not, even know that it is a pigeon, and may not recognize that it is the same as the other pigeons in a park. Is, well, wrong thinking (I was going to put it another way, but I decided to be diplomatic).

The problem between you and SFL debating the life expectancy stats, is that it should have initially been explained ferals versus CAGED birds. Because there are far more racing and fancy pigeons "out there" than there are caged pigeons kept as pets. Even the rollers, high flyers, tipplers and what have you, are out there in the eye sight of predators and being lost from weather, etc.

I believe the stats might be correct or close to it, if it is between caged pigeons and feral pigeons. But not otherwise for sure.

Anyone here have a pigeon 15 years old, that has never had a life outside of a one or two bird sized cage? I doubt it.

Look folks. We have all given our opinions, based on our experience or thoughts on the subject. Some have more experience than others, but all opinions should be considered as thoughtful and heartfelt, in the best interest of this bird and the kind people who rescued it.

There is nothing else that needs or should be said to help this couple make a decision, IMO. 

A soft release. Or keep it as a pet. Or, transfer it to someone who will keep it in a loft with other pigeons, are really the only choices I see. I think this is obvious to the current owners/caretakers of this bird. 

Now we are just being contrary, and I am the King of Contrary wherever I go.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kiichi,



In regard to your original question -



A found Baby Pigeon, raised by people, and kept for six monts or more, kept for years even...can be 'released' to a successful, wild or feral Life...if...



If the Bird is permitted to spend some months, or a year even if need be, among pre-release, rehabbed, wild/feral Pigeons away from the people who had raised him.

And, if, in the judgement of the rehabber...the Pigeon shows himself to have acquired the necessary modes of being, reflexes, assertiveness, and waryness of people, his fellows will instill in him over time.


Phil
Lv


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

In the dead of the winter it is a real rough life out there for a bird--let alone--a pigeon and I often as I drive and see them scraping for food in the weeds and dead grass and trash can areas and mcdonalds and all those type of places ---think to myself---my God how do you eat in this freezing cold weather and find anything under this snow--lots of pigeons die---lots of pigeons starve---doing this time---I can verify this --because I do not feed the pigeons or encourage them---sometimes when it gets really bad---I get weak and say to hell with it and feed them---and if I don't when its snows---they huddle up againist my back door and wait for hours and hours in the snow for me to come out and clean the loft and some of them are so so weak that they can't even fly away---I get the things---and help them at that stage ---It's a hard hard life out there.. I would rather have a full belly and a warm home with plenty of sunshine and good air and good companionship then to go through a winter huddling by someones door waiting hours for a hand out---as also there is a safety concern---thats when the hawks hit and they hit the weaker flyers and young first---No in my mind---there is absolutely no choice here for I know this pigeon will have a good and long and healthy life and contact with its own kind and be in a world that we all could pray for and be safe and spoiled and out of that pigeon life of hard survival...I think the people are very lucky to have a home for their pigeon---a good home----and it is just up to them---either way there are other birds out there to help----and who knows maybe that pigeon got to their heart and they know are about to decide to have a pet pigeon and remain part of pigeon talk here with all the crazyness that goes on---if you look at it a certain way and re read some of the script of words on this pigeon talk--it gets humorous--but that just me for I do have a funny sense of humor....and all I could say is: Lets have a peanut butter and jelly sandwiche-----I hope the people decide to let me have their pigeon and after the initial scare of shipping they would not have to worry about it anymore and as much as my writing goes--you all know that I would keep them updated on everything--motor mouth ---c.hert lol


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jay3 said:


> ...... And I have no idea where they come up with the figures. But they come up with the figures for song birds too. How long lived in the wild versus in captivity. Birding experts come up with these figures. Go ask them how they get them if that intrigues you so. Any animal in captivity lives lots longer for the most part than a wild cousin. I am surprised that you did not know that, as I thought it to be common knowledge. ...


One could argue that I am a birding expert, and I also have had some exposure in college to research and statistics. As a bird expert, my personal experience and observation is that the figures used are wrong. It was once *"common knowledge"* that the earth was flat....*everybody*....knew that. If you make assumptions based on faulty information and data, then you are very likely to come up with faulty conclusions. 

As one previous poster said however, the orginal poster now has all the various and possible opinions on the subject, the only issue remaining is the actual release back into the loving hands of mother nature from which this bird came. I wish them both the best of luck. There are few guarantees in life, but if that pigeon could talk, I am sure it would thank that caretaker for nursing him back to health, and for returning him back into his natural enviroment. 

For those well intentioned and passionate folks, who see their mission in life as a compassionate jailer, whose mission is to keep a wild animal alive as long as possible within the confines of a cage, the only purpose of which is safe keeping. I know your hearts are well meaning. Perhaps watching the movie or reading the book "Born Free" will give you another perspective.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Warren...you are way off track on this one. Clearly you don't understand because you have no experience with feral pigeons. For those that know feral pigeons, your remarks are rediculous. Likely you would say the same of us should we offer advise or opinons on raising pigeons, training or whatever you folks do.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I wonder if statistics could be found on the web, that compares average life expectancy of humans in prison for most or all of their adult life, versus those not incarcerated?

Maybe that could help with the health care crisis. Just incarcerate most all. I'll volunteer to be a guard, to help keep out the starving and unhealthy free people trying to break into the prison. 

Just a little joke folks. Lighten up.

This thread is about one little pigeon that is doing fine. Either do what is known as a "soft or slow release", or keep it in a loft with other pigeons. There are volunteers to keep the little thing, so its life is not in jeopardy. No big deal really. Just egos clashing here. As usual on the internet.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

LOL!!!! I love that cartoon and to my shame can identify with it too well...


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if the folks that have raised and kept feral pigeons say it will not fare well out in nature because it does not know it is a pigeon or thinks people are pigeons which ever it may be, then I'll go with that, because I have no experience with them.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

We finally have a majority agreement then !!! First off - y'all did the right thing by bringing him\her in - because you saved your pal's life ! Now - if he\she isn't meeting the criteria for release noted in the forum sticky "to release or not" - then you should work on finding your buddy a home. If he\she is exhibiting signs of releasability - then you would start a soft release program and observe if he is showing signs of 'catching on'. I'd tend to agree w\pdpbison here - it'd likely require a long period of soft-release acclimation - and if there were any doubt - I wouldn't try it.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> We finally have a majority agreement then !!! First off - y'all did the right thing by bringing him\her in - because you saved your pal's life ! Now - if he\she isn't meeting the criteria for release noted in the forum sticky "to release or not" - then you should work on finding your buddy a home. If he\she is exhibiting signs of releasability - then you would start a soft release program and observe if he is showing signs of 'catching on'. I'd tend to agree w\pdpbison here - it'd likely require a long period of soft-release acclimation - and if there were any doubt - I wouldn't try it.


Have to agree with this.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The relation betwen Life Span and whether a Pigeon is feral or in a Loft or other domesticity, depends entirely in the particulars of the individual conditions of either.

Given many feral Pigeons live under difficult conditions, have poor nutrition, or are subject to other compromise, and immune health, many in their numbers may not live long.

Endless stories occur here on PT, of loft or other kept Pigeons not living very long also, whether from disease outbreak, other reasons, or, causes of mortality unknown,


Among feral Pigeons or Loft kept Pigeons who find good nutrition, right for them Living conditions, good Air quality, exercise, there will be individuals living into their late teens or into their twenties.



Overall, we have no way of knowing the life spans of individual feral pigeons, by which to presume generalizations, unless we happen to see them over enough time, to say we have seen the unquestionably same individual Birds over such and such a time, whether we knew how old they were to begin with or not.


Some of the Birds I released in the early 1993, I was still seeing a couple years ago, and, they had been mature adults when I found, rehabbed, and, released them.


So, those individuals I can say, who were born feral lived feral, had injuries I helped them with, then released, continued to live feral, and, when last seen, fifteen years later, were at least 15 to 16 years of age, if not possibly older, since I had no idea how old they were when I helped them in 1993.


Many ferals' Genes do not express characteristics of aging, as some Breeds do, so, a ten twelve or sixteen year old feral, may merely look just as he or she did when they were two,


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Charis said:


> Warren...you are way off track on this one. Clearly you don't understand because you have no experience with feral pigeons. For those that know feral pigeons, your remarks are rediculous. Likely you would say the same of us should we offer advise or opinons on raising pigeons, training or whatever you folks do.


 Me Wrong ?! 

My wife Karen, I am sure would disagree with you ! Just the other day I overheard her tell the one daughter...."Warren may not always be right, but he is *never* wrong ! "

So I agree 100% with conditionfreak's cartoon and I defer all your feral pigeon questions to pdpbison...I have been reading his posts for quite some time, and IMHO he has these issues down pat, and has a better understanding of the feral then most. 

I don't think Charis, that it is completely true to say that I don't have any experience with ferals. Back in 65' I started with a box full of ferals purchased at a farm market for .25 cents each and whatever lady luck brought in from the fields, as well as some of those high priced .75 cent "Fancy" pigeons. 

And if truth be told, I did sort of feel sorry for this one feral who came in with my YB's in 2008, so I did vaccinate him and made him an honorary member of my YB "A" team. Even gave him his own band and sent him on training tosses. All those months of "pampered" living, apparently did not agree with him, as one day when released for loft flying, he sort of hung around for awhile and decided the "wild" life was more to his liking....no "soft" release for him.....he simply took off back to the easy life of being a regular "park" pigeon, most likely bragging about his days hanging out with the big boy "racers". 

But, I shall leave you folks to the great feral debates of.....to release or not to release.......If it were me, I would let it up to the pigeon as I did with my little feral friend of 2008. He had the same choice as the rest of the kids, live here under my roof, under my rules, or find your own little nook under the Route 30 bridge....and like all the rest, they seem to prefer sleeping under a bridge....or in the park...go figure....


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

pdpbison said:


> The relation betwen Life Span and whether a Pigeon is feral or in a Loft or other domesticity, depends entirely in the particulars of the individual conditions of either.
> 
> Given many feral Pigeons live under difficult conditions, have poor nutrition, or are subject to other compromise, and immune health, many in their numbers may not live long.
> 
> ...


Exactly !.....


----------



## kiichi (Mar 6, 2010)

*Updating Status - My Girlfriend's thinking*

Hello,

I'm sorry about my late response & I have to interpret her mind here that might give you blur impression of our goal. 
I've talked my girlfriend for while about this thread and her plan. I told various opinions on this thread. 


I strongly agree with people who mentioned it is not wild bird anymore (e.g. Charis's comment). Then, I have a problem here.
My girlfriend understand the point and I even told her the best choice would be adoption and we even have a gentle person who offers to take care. 
However, since she feels great responsibility to the pigeon, she does not like the idea to let other people take care of it. 

She still thinks releasing the pigeon is the best solution. But please understand, we want to keep him if our apartment & environment allow it. 

Here, I got dilemma between my girlfriend thinking and experts' opinion here. Let me list my points.

1. As far as summarizing everyone's opinion here, our pigeon, that has been raised for 6 month since it was baby, is not considered as wild pigeon anymore. 
It is challenging to release him and there is no guarantee such a thing "nature instinct" kicks in when he goes outside.

2. Lack of our skills, experience and environment:
Currently, there is a parking lot area where other pigeon comes. 










Since she goes school during weekday and I have two jobs and Graduate Course, there is only sunny weekend is available for us to "train" the bird to become a part of other pigeon's family.
We do not have good facilities like bird's loft open to the outside.

This situation makes things hard because we can not release in really soft way. We have every two days in the weekend. This makes even harder to create "soft" environment
that Phil suggested. 



> If the Bird is permitted to spend some months, or a year even if need be, among pre-release, rehabbed, wild/feral Pigeons away from the people who had raised him.


I'm still looking for that kind of environment in our area. Please let me know if someone does that.


I wish I can afford a house with yard or something. 

3. Life time about the pigeon:

As for the life time discussion, I and my girlfriend agree that maximizing his life-time (average 15 years vs. 2-3 years) might not our goal
if 2-3 years life time is natural cycle for wild pigeon. However, because of reasons #1 and #2, we definitely should avoid situations like pigeon just dies for
no reason because he just does not know how to survive and it does not make sense if the pigeon does not get into the natural cycle. 
That's why I recommended her to look for a choice of adoption.


My girlfriend still see a chance to release him. If she really wants to do that, I'm thinking to suggest to test the possibility of releasing first.

In any days that we can go with the pigeon for an entire day, we will crop the parking lot, then invite other pigeons and see if he approach other birds. 
Basically, just look how it goes. And take him back after while.

If he shows interests, we keep doing the same thing for while? This still looks bad idea because of reasons #1 and #2. What do you think of this "testing" plan?
We do not just release the bird and shut the door, but we are expecting he will come back in the beginning.

If this pigeon gets panic or something, or if super or landlord find us? I'm not 100% sure for this plan...









_
Yes, I can has the Fitzgerald too?_


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How will you find out if he will approach other birds unless you let him out free? If you do that he will take off and you will not be able to catch him. I'm not really sure what you are saying.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

No, I think his idea is that he will start doing a soft-release type method - with pigeon in cage - and see if the pigeon starts reacting the way one is supposed to react (while inside the cage) during feedings, foragings, fleeings, etc. 

If not..... then they are back to square one. 

I hope understand this correctly, Kiichi ? 

Personally - please *stop* with the whole 15 years vs. 2 years thinking - it's one big digression, which provides no direction.... that whole argument.

_Right now it just comes down to this_ : You need to do the best for your friend. Can you possibly release your friend successfully ???? 

- or will your GF's insistence on releasing it - instead of just finding a good home - result in the pigeon's very quick death in the feral world ?

It is this last point which concerns me the most: rather than finding a safe home for your beautiful feathered friend, which would be under the care of someone else....your GF seems to be leaning towards a much more risky proposition which may have dire consequences.

So I am wondering if this sort of thinking is in the best interest of the pigeon. I mean, if the pigeon does not catch on during some soft release sessions....would your GF then be more comfortable with placing him in someone else's care ?

Lastly...I personally do not think that soft-release sessions only on weekends will really progress very well....

And once again....you are in NYC....possibly the #1 place in the world with the hugest pro-pigeon resources.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> No, I think his idea is that he will start doing a soft-release type method - with pgeon n cage - and see if the pigeon starts reacting the way one is supposed to react during feedings foragings fleeings etc
> 
> If not..... then they are back to square one.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining that. I hope that's what he means.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This bird should not be released or if you are insistent upon doing that, the bird needs to be turned over to someone experienced in soft release. 
I hope you will heed our advise.


----------



## kiichi (Mar 6, 2010)

Hi Jay3,

Yes thanks, Jaye explained well what I tried to say. 

I talked to my girlfriend again. She still thinks there is no difference between her and pro to release the pigeon even though I clearly explained as I wrote in my last comment.

I found a pigeon store in Brooklyn and I'm planning to visit them if there is community out there. I'm going to find someone who does releasing with experience.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis is right...

This Pigeon needs to be in a milieu where pre-release Adults who were adults prior to rehab, are concentrated...

Any rehabber who has a pre-release aviary, could provide such a setting.


He needs a few months in such a milieu before he can be safely released to be on his own recon in the wild.


He can do catch-up just fine, but it needs to be where he is safe from fatal neophyte errors or shynesses.


He needs to acquire 'wild' modes of poise and apprehension and reaction and sense...and for this to assume a dominant occupation, displacing prior human-friendly complaiscent modes.


Being for a few months with wild/feral pre-release adult Pigeons, who were adults prior to rehab, will allow him to do this.


Phil
Lv


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

kiichi said:


> I found a pigeon store in Brooklyn and I'm planning to visit them if there is community out there. I'm going to find someone who does releasing with experience.


This was very astute of you....sounds like it could potentially be a good lead/possibility. Thank you for investigating that.


(Good comments be everyone on this page, BTW).


----------

