# Compass!! How old is he??



## quincar23

this is "compass"... i have had him for about 11 days... the first pic is on the 
3rd day having him; and the second is from today... how old is he do you think?
and... his "bump" on his beak/ nostrils is alot smaller now; why?
he's really starting to flutter about; not flying but flap his wings, like he's showing off... he's so cute!


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## Reti

He should be around four weeks old now.
The bump on the beak, you mean the wattle? It will grow as he matures.
He is a darling, absolutely adorable.

Reti


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## Pidgey

The "bump on the beak" is probably the ceres (wattle; nostrils) and the bird's growing up around them--they're staying the same size.

What I'm wondering though is about that bump under his chin. I'm not sure that I like the look of that. Did you ever get that stuff we were talking about earlier in the first big panic?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Go look at this thread and the first picture (it's a link--gotta' click it) and you'll see a pretty bad version of what canker can do:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20503

Pidgey


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## quincar23

*what bump*

what bump?... he did eat right before i took the picture


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## Pidgey

Compare the underneath side of Compass' chin to the picture of Simone in the first post of this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20550

Pidgey


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## quincar23

is this a better pic? do you still see the bump?


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## Pidgey

Not sure--take another until you get as near to a side profile as the one of Simone.

Pidgey


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## Charis

Kind of looks like food on and around his face to me. 
Sure is acute one. It would be impossible not to fall in live with him.


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## quincar23

ok, now i am freaking out... i took a good look at his chin and yes it did have some dried food on it, but there IS a bump on both sides, almost like a clef chin ( kinda)....


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## quincar23

*i have ronidazole!*

ok, apparently my compass has canker (2 bumps under his chin area) i ordered the ronidazole just in case the other day and it has arrived!! so now i need to know how much to give him and how often... the label says 1 tablet a day for 3 days ( oh and they are 30mg)... do i just pop one of the pills down his throat? please help!


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## Pidgey

Are you sure it's 30 milligrams? According to the formulary, Ronidazole should be dosed at 10 milligrams of pure medicine per 1 kilogram of bird, orally. This bird's probaby 200 to 250 grams so the dose should be 2.0 to 2.5 milligrams per day.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Did you get them at Foy's or where? I went there and didn't see the level of product detail necessary to make the judgment call. This is a catalog entry for JEDDS on Ronidazole tablets:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=64&SubCategoryID=540&ProductID=2405

Generally, a homing pigeon is larger than a feral, especially one this young. So, those 5 milligram pills are just about right for the average-sized homer. Now, what you may not know without investigating is that a pill often has other material in it so that it's really a lot heavier than the actual weight of the medicine alone. You'd normally think that they wouldn't list that as the pill's size though but some repackager's seem to be a bit lax.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

oh god i know i am being retarded it but what do i do? should i crush the pill and divided it to the right amount and put it in his food?
2 mg of 30 mg is not alot... what if i don't give him enough or i give him too much... like i said i am retarted... please help... tell me what to do


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## quincar23

oh & should i mix it with water instead?


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## Pidgey

Well, they (Metronidazole and Ronidazole) both have a very wide margin of safety. I suppose what you oughta' do for the moment is split the difference, sorta'. Since Compass weighs about half of a typical homer hen, just cut the pill in half and give him one-half for now. The first dose is often doubled to get the serum level up faster anyhow.

As for giving it to him, believe me, he can swallow it whole no problem. Some folks put a drop of oil (vegetable, olive, whatever; just NOT motor oil or Singer 3-in-1) on them to help them slide down better.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

thank you so much pidgey... i'll get back on here later


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## quincar23

*oh dear*

i think i need to find a proper home for compass  
i just noticed that he doesn't put any weight on his left foot...
whats wrong with him now?if he has a broken something, i can't set it, can i?
i have 3 small children, i cannot afford a vet visit... i am so sad...
do any of you know of a link to a shelter in my area? ( south eastern MI)
why would he limp? if you think it's something easy to fix, i am glad to help my poor little guy.... any suggestions?


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## Pidgey

Try the Michigan entries here:

http://www.pigeon-life.net/prd.htm

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

quincar23 said:


> i think i need to find a proper home for compass
> i just noticed that he doesn't put any weight on his left foot...
> whats wrong with him now?if he has a broken something, i can't set it, can i?
> i have 3 small children, i cannot afford a vet visit... i am so sad...
> do any of you know of a link to a shelter in my area? ( south eastern MI)
> why would he limp? if you think it's something easy to fix, i am glad to help my poor little guy.... any suggestions?


Quincar23, 

To the best of your recollection, was this bird limping or showing any signs
of having problems w/this foot or did this foot problem seem to just flare up?
I would burrito the bird and have a careful, gentle feel of the foot. It's tender I'm sure so you'll have to be careful, but see if you can feel a broken
bone.

I've had two babies in a month's time, both of whom were found out of nest 
and on the ground. One from someone else, and one
I found myself. The one I found couldn't use one foot at all and had poop
matted to the feathers around the vent. It was hiding under a bush. The odor of the poop reminded me of other birds that I've cared for whose symptoms were consistent w/Salmonellosis/Paratyphoid. This baby was ambulating on one foot using the wings as crutches and holding one of the
feet as though there was no use of the toes at all. Within six hours of the
first dose of generic Baytril, the baby--albeit timidly--was using that foot.
Within about a week, the bird was walking w/out much of any
limp to speak of.

The second baby I mentioned was limping from a swollen foot, the inflamation
is mostly gone, a bump is still visible and seems to be shrinking, and the bird's not limping anymore.

If you feel that that foot and there is no break there, then I'm sure one
of us can send you some meds for this bird. Why not give that a try for 
now unless you are feeling overwhelmed w/caring for the baby.

If you choose the route of a rehabber, please ask first what they will do
w/an unreleasable feral pigeon. If they say they will put the bird down,
would you mind please getting back to the forum because there may be other
ways to deal w/this situation.

Here is another link, this one is to private Avian Vets:

http://www.aav.org/activemembers.html#m

Sometimes avian vets will treat ferals/wild birds for free but you have to 
sign the bird over to them. When you call, you can ask what they will do w/the bird if unreleasable, some of them have means of placing the ferals that they treat. There is no harm in calling and asking, and once you go through this process, you will know where to get help in the event of finding
another injured bird in the future.

fp


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## quincar23

*compass today*

compass's canker is alittle bit worse today... i gave him half of the ronidazole tablet yesterday and about 1/8th of one to day... how long till i see improvement? he's still a little limpy today, but is eating good and pooing good... i'll repost his "stats" tomorrow...
thanks everybody!
carisa


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## Pidgey

You mean it's swelling larger? Can you post a picture? Usually it takes a couple of days to start turning around. Was Ronidazole the only thing you ordered?

Pidgey


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## quincar23

the "bumps" are slightly larger, and have a tiny tiny bit of "sore like things" on them... his mouth is still yellow button free...
and yes it is the only med i ordered, sorry guys, i am not very good (yet) at being a pigeon mommy


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## Pidgey

I suppose it could be the beginning of pox but I don't have personal experience with that one. If that's what it is, it'll get to looking pretty bad but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Have you got any Betadine (10% Povidone Iodine)? You can dilute that down 10-to-1 with water and paint it on to keep surface bacteria down.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

like iodine for people? i don't have any but i can surely pick some up at the local drugstore...
if he does have pox... should he be on differant meds? is it life threatening?
now i get to start worrying all over again! geez


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## Pidgey

No, don't start worrying about that one. Pox is usually only a skin surface problem that proceeds to a nasty looking level, stays for a few weeks and then goes away. It's viral and there's nothing we can do to stop it--only attempt to keep it from spreading by keeping it dry and disinfecting the surface with Betadine. There are a few different strategies--I just named one.

If it's pox, it'll become pretty obvious in fairly short order. When pox goes away, the bird's got lifetime immunity (I think).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Betadine isn't the same as normal iodine. Usually, you get the generic version that may say "Povidone Iodine 10%" and comes in bigger bottle than the little ones we used to get with Iodine.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

ok... so i am to continue the ronidazole for ??? how many days; and get this betadine and do the 10 to 1 till no more symptoms, right?

and his "bumps" are hard ... does anyone have a link so i can see what pox looks like?
carisa


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## Pidgey

Oh, for the moment just figure on giving him the Ronidazole for three days. It's going to be a "wait-and-see" kind of thing. I'll try to dig up some links to pox but they're REALLY not very pretty. Usually, the pictures are taken in the later stages at the peak and so are especially horrible. Go to this post and click those links from Terry--they will open pages of thumbnails which you can click on. Not every thumbnail is a pox picture:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=198103&postcount=27

Pidgey


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## joefi2

*Old Fart*

Good Afternoon ,i Rase Pigeons And When They Do Get Canker Which Knock On Wood I Havent Seen It For 3 Years ,, There Is A 3&1 Med From Foys That Helps Prevent It And If The Bird Does Have It What We Usually Do Is Take A Nail Pour Alchol On It And Open Up The Beak And Scrape It Out And Keep A Eye On It There Is The Pill Which I See Some One Said To Use Or Take A Cotten Swab And Try To Take It Out With That ,this Little One Looks Like It Has It Preaty Bad I Hope That All Goes Well ,when Ever I See It That Bad Sometimes Its Two Late ,i Check Inside Of Their Throtes Every Once In A While It Is Yellow In Color ,and I Take It Out With The Nail Good Luck


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## TAWhatley

You want to be very hesitant about trying to remove a canker nodule. Often they are deeply embedded in the tissue and a serious bleed can result. There have been some cases reported of a vet using a laser removing canker growths and cauterizing at the same time, but I would be very leery of trying to remove them on my own. JMO ..

Terry


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## quincar23

if he has pox; do you know how fast it gets bad looking?
i bought the providine 10% and i will use a soft paint brush to apply it, how often should i? and any other possibilites on his foot/ leg? i don't think it hurts him, it is a little bit smaller and doesn't move as well as the other...


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## Pidgey

Hmm... well, Terry or someone else with experience with pox will need to guide you on that one. As to the foot and leg being a bit smaller, that's interesting. I guess we'll have to think about that.

Pidgey


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## Reti

quincar23 said:


> if he has pox; do you know how fast it gets bad looking?
> i bought the providine 10% and i will use a soft paint brush to apply it, how often should i? and any other possibilites on his foot/ leg? i don't think it hurts him, it is a little bit smaller and doesn't move as well as the other...


You can apply it twice a day. Be careful not to get it too close to the eyes.
Is he still limping? If he is it might be painful.

Reti


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## quincar23

*good morning...*

compass today:
i swear he has grow inches over night! he looks so big now, his tail feathers and wings are so long now! he is really showing interest in "flying"... his "bimps under his chin are not bigger today, about the same as yesterday, which i assume is good....
his foot is still funny looking, but i really don't think it hurts him... have any of you seen a pigeon with a smaller foot/ leg that doesn't move as well but does move?
oh and his "urates" ( i think thats how its spelled) are alot more white instead of yellow! yay!
he is starting to be able to peck, and actually eat that very small pellet feed i bought... out of 15 tries, he probabley succeeds in eating about half that amount... and he is eating more of the baby bird food, about 30-35 ml's instead of the 20 ml's he was eating before... oh and his crop is now empty when i feed him, but i did stop feeding him 4 times a day yesterday, we'll feed him 3 times for now and only when his crop is empty, so about every 5-7 hours.... i feel alot better about him now...
thank you everybody!
carisa


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## Skyeking

Hi carisa,

Sounds like very positive and encouraging news. I'm glad to hear Compass is doing so well.

I would continue with what you are doing. Pigeons manage to adapt quite well with a handicap, and it still might continue to improve- if it is just a deformity. Either way it sounds like he is managing nicely.


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## quincar23

i do have a question about his coloring? does their coloring change as they get older? as of today he is grey/ speckled w/ the "blue bar" on his wings... his head is dark grey and there is some greenish blue showing up on the back of his neck... when does the color on his beak come? and is it possible that his eye color is already changing? when i 1st got him his eyes were brown; they are a tan now... does that mean they will probabley be yellow?


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## Pidgey

Maybe he was having problems taking in food and growing because of other canker elsewhere. Sometimes it happens where we can't see and the next thing you know they're starving to death and dying for almost no reason.

This sounds good.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

i'm gonna weigh him in a little bit... he was 227 g... we'll see
i'll post his new weight in a few


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## feralpigeon

I think for the pox symptoms to start visibly appearing it would take one to two 
weeks from the time of exposure and that's a range. If you've had this bird indoors for weeks now, unless a pigeon fly or mosquito got in and bit him/her,
then it's more likely canker especially w/the urates changing more to a white
w/Ronidazole. BTW, Dr. Speers recommends undiluted peroxide on pox sores
which is what I've used and it worked well, I also liked that it didn't affect the
color of the pox boils.

I'm sure a pigeon can get deformities much the same as humans though
the problem here w/be the possibility of overlooking an illness. I'd probably
give the bird the antibiotic and build up the GI tract w/probiotics afterwards
to be on the safe side, though.

fp


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## quincar23

he weighs 317 g, thats good, right?
and as far as getting these antibiotics and probiotics what kind do you recommend & dosage and what online site...
i have been putting the diluted iodine on his "sores" should i switch to the perioxide? and 2 times a day with that?


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## Pidgey

How are those looking today? Have you seen any changes at all in the last couple of days? And, yeah, the weight's sounding real good.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

I think you said that you were feeding several times a day, I'd do it after feeding the youngster for sure to keep the sores clean.  Personally I would stay away from cleaning w/something that changes the coloring. I have liquid Enrofloxan that I can send if I can figure a secure way of shipping it that it won't leak, otherwise, I will send you an antibiotic in pill format.

fp


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## quincar23

pidgey- his "sores" look the same as yesterday, no differance... they are really quite small, maybe it's neither canker or pox... i am gonna pretend its both to be safe tho

feral pigeon- i'd appreciate any help your willing to offer (antibiotic) 
thank you
carisa


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## feralpigeon

I will put something in the mail for you then.

fp


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## quincar23

thank you fp....

i think he must be feeling better; at this last feeding, he kept wing slapping me when i needed to refill the syringe! he was bossing me around, " you better hurry wih my food lady!" lol.... what a character!


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## quincar23

*5-21-07*

good morning all!
compass today:
well 1st off; i messed up on his weights last week; i was using a really old mail scale to weigh him before, i bought a new food scale this weekend, his weight on friday was 225g and today it's 255g... i think he is small for his age though...
his bumps are a little bigger today but they are not "spreading". and they are only under his chin, 2 of them, they look some what like a clef chin... does this sound right for canker or pox?
his leg/foot is working a little bit better today... he actually flew for his 1st time yesterday, about 5 feet, from the top of his cage to my desk...
i really need some tips on how to wean this little bugger, he has been difficult... i am trying to get him to eat, "kaytee exact original"... but he's rather peck my hand to death, he won't even acknoweldge the food i put down...
thanks again everyone
carisa


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## flitsnowzoom

quincar23 said:


> good morning all!
> compass today:
> i really need some tips on how to wean this little bugger, he has been difficult... i am trying to get him to eat, "kaytee exact original"... but he's rather peck my hand to death, he won't even acknoweldge the food i put down...
> thanks again everyone
> carisa


"But, MOM! I'm hungry!"  squeals Compass.

Love to give you help but I don't have direct knowledge. Real parenting advice along soon. 
BTW, Compass is quite the looker.


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## feralpigeon

Carisa, are you tube feeding this bird or are you mixing the K-T Exact and leaving it out for the baby in a bowl?

fp


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## quincar23

FP- tube feeding...


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## Pidgey

Well, sometimes they take to food like a duck to water and sometimes they don't. You probably oughta' get him some wild bird seed or, better, a wild dove/pigeon mix and then you put a few seeds in front of him (they usually start out liking the smaller seeds) and start pecking with your finger or a pencil. If you can get him to at least start playing with them, then hunger can do the rest.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

i have some dove seed, is that good enough? and what about grit? i have some red grit... how do i give it to him?


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## Pidgey

About the same way that you give him seeds--in a small bowl or pile. Try both of those and figure that you can have him converted over in a few days or weeks. They usually lose about 10% of their weight while weaning.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

When he squeaks for food vehemently, you tap the seeds. When he flies up to your shoulder to scream right in your ear, thinking that you've gone deaf, put him in front of the seeds and then tap them again. When he's standing on your back while you're laying in the bed (probably sobbing) with your face crammed into the pillow and your fingers in your ears, get up, put him in front of the seeds and tap them.

And don't forget water.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

here's what his bumps look like today


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## flitsnowzoom

So is Compass getting a little frill back there?


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## feralpigeon

Put seeds, grit and water in untippable bowls and keep in the cage w/him or her
until they catch on. They will without the finger tapping and playing routine as
it's in their nature to peck but if you want to do that, have a ball.

Change the water every day even if you think the bird isn't using it, though
you will start to see seed in the water. As the bird starts to peck/eat the seeds, you can start to tape how much and how often you tube feed the baby.
I usually judge this dependant on how the crop feels.

fp


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## quincar23

flitsnowzoom- what's a frill?


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## quincar23

Pidgey said:


> When he squeaks for food vehemently, you tap the seeds. When he flies up to your shoulder to scream right in your ear, thinking that you've gone deaf, put him in front of the seeds and then tap them again. When he's standing on your back while you're laying in the bed (probably sobbing) with your face crammed into the pillow and your fingers in your ears, get up, put him in front of the seeds and tap them.
> 
> And don't forget water.
> 
> Pidgey


now thats funny!!! he better not act like one of my kids! lol


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## Pidgey

You know, his feathers seem a bit greasy--what all have you used on that bird topically up to this point?

Pidgey


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## flitsnowzoom

A frill is those upswept feathers on the back of his neck (sort of makes the birds look like one of those Elizabethian portraits -- think Elizabeth I or Shakespeare). Pidgey is implying that you are giving him a "ducktail"  instead. Perfect for a rebellious adolescent.


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## Pidgey

Actually, I'm trying to figure out what's causing that baldness under the chin. Normally by now, they've got pin feathers over that entire area and that skin is usually very dry (powdery dry) so I'm wondering what the sheen is from. If it's a salve or an oil, it might be best just to clean it off with Dawn dish detergent (a bath) because sometimes that kind of stuff (grease, oil) can cause their skin not to be normal.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

their not greasy, just wet... i had just cleaned him up from a feeding...


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## quincar23

if i were to give him a "bath", whats the safest/ easiest way to do this with a bird his age?


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## Pidgey

Well, they'll bathe all on their own, usually. You just get him standing in a pan of water and he might go to town. And the messier they can get, the better, it seems. While a youngster's feathers will get wet, there comes a time when they shouldn't anymore. He's not there yet. 

But, when dry, his feathers ought to really look_ dry_. If they don't, you have to wonder why.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

ok, so now my baby compass has; canker & or pox, a bad foot/ leg, and isn't growing his feathers right! omg.... am i doing that bad of a job raising him?
he is pretty bald on his beak and under his beak... why would that be....
i totally apologize for all my incompetence, i really have no idea what i am doing do i? i just want compass to be healthy and grow properly, and i can't manage to do anything right....
why can't be just be healthy!  
please don't think badly of me.... i am sorry... i just want to help him...
any other advice, to help me take care of him (properly)
carisa


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## Pidgey

Well, the likelihood is that he'd a'been a goner if you and your husband hadn't rescued him so put all thoughts of being a bad mother out of your head. More often than not, there is a reason why an orphaned or lost youngster is out there on their own--it's because they weren't going to make it due to disease, injury or whatever. Sometimes their parents know this to begin with and run them off. That's cruel and hard but that's life without opposable thumbs.

Baldness often shows some kind of inflammatory issue which can be due to too much rubbing (like if they're always nuzzling you too much), underlying canker (which, if he did have it--it's over now), some kind of skin infection, mites of some kind... there's a lot of possibilities. In many cases, you can have taken the right course and eradicated the underlying problem and the symptom continues to persist for quite awhile until things straighten out. The bird doesn't appear in danger of dying right now so we've got time to wait and see how it's going to play out. Rehabbing is a business that demands patience. In spades.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Tell you what, post another full picture of the little scamp today, hopefully catching him standing proudly with his neck somewhat extended.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

ok, so the if he rubs on something it can make his feathers fall out or not grow in right? the reason i ask is because the syringe i have been feeding him with is too small, i think, because his beak has been getting stuck in it, (not stuck, stuck, but it takes a little efort by him to remove it) i am going to find something bigger to feed him with... maybe thats all it is! whew, that sounds like an easy fix!


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## Pidgey

Do you think that the little scabby-looking spots are right where he gets stuck at? That'd explain a lot.

Pidgey


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## quincar23

i considered it, makes sense wouldn't... i am using a little medicine cup right now.... we'll see in a couple days i guess...


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## flitsnowzoom

quincar23 said:


> ok, so the if he rubs on something it can make his feathers fall out or not grow in right?
> 
> i totally apologize for all my incompetence, i really have no idea what i am doing do i? i just want compass to be healthy and grow properly, and i can't manage to do anything right....
> why can't be just be healthy!


Just think of your little ones (people that is  ) and how their hair grew in. They spent a lot of time lying on the backs of their heads so their hair back there kept getting rubbed down a bit so it didn't look like they had much back there. 
Like Pidgey says, you are doing a wonderful job on Compass. You and your hubby rescued him from a certain death out there in the cold cruel world so it's baby steps forward for awhile.


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## quincar23

ok, so i gave him a "bath", his chest area was mighty gross from all the food on it and low and behold his feathers ARE fluffy! he he he, my bad! they are a brownish color too; i didn't ever notice them before, he has alot of color to him, he's speckled grey and has a bluish tint on his neck and his chest is brownish and his back is white and his tail feathers are a light blue grey, he's a chameleon pigeon!
and i also hope that the "sore" on his chin and lack of feathers is from me not feeding him properly... oh! and i got him to eat about 20 seeds (out of a hundred, ha ha!)
and.......... he flew about 15 feet a couple times, woo-hoo! today did get better...
so here's a pic from this afternoon, let me know if he looks good or not...
thanks guys
carisa


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## feralpigeon

quincar23 said:


> ok, so the if he rubs on something it can make his feathers fall out or not grow in right? the reason i ask is because the syringe i have been feeding him with is too small, i think, because his beak has been getting stuck in it, (not stuck, stuck, but it takes a little efort by him to remove it) i am going to find something bigger to feed him with... maybe thats all it is! whew, that sounds like an easy fix!


Maybe post a picture of your feeding set up if you don't mind. Are the two sores still under the chin the way the were before you bathed him? 
I'm not seeing that in the post bath pic, though there still seems to be inflamation there. Seems like there may be a bit of 
a baldish spot in the front towards the upper area of the keel, unless that's just the way the feathers dried. S/he really looks quite adorable in spite of 
the baldish areas, and looks quite content and relaxed in your home. That
says alot.

You're doing a great job, not to worry, the problem is that sometimes it can be clumsy communicating over the internet, especially in the kind of detail required for rescue/rehabilitation.

fp


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## Reti

He is so cute, has such a lovely face.
I think the bald spots will grow feathers soon. I had several youngsters who had bald spots and eventually they grew feathers.

Reti


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## quincar23

FP- yes the bumps are still there, one of the "scabs" is getting ready to fall off... my new feeding set up consists of a little medicine cup (the kind that comes with cough syrup) i cut a piece of my nylons and covered the cup (secured with a rubber band) this shouldn't be painful at all for him, i would guess.
and what is the keel? 
i really hope that he only has inflamation/ boo-boo's from that stupid syringe...
IS THIS HELPFUL?


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## feralpigeon

Yes, that's helpful. The bird isn't really being tube fed, it's sticking it's beak through the hole in the nylon and drawing out the formula. That's a good method. Maybe something stretchier/softer might help, or make sure the hole is large enuf to accomodate the diameter of the beak and then some for it to be open. Does seem hard to believe that this is what caused the two bumps and scabs. The feeding method is really just fine in that it is a variation on one of
the recommended methods.

fp


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## Pidgey

Well, it's a lot easier for me to believe since the thread on Jaz's bird, Cole. I've been studying the mandible structure a lot more than I'd like lately and those two spots are right where the underside of those two... "struts" (for lack of a better word) go.

I haven't personally seen a bird develop rubbing problems but I was fascinated by the baldness that Crow-Baby had and I knew that he had to be fed every meal the hard way and Phil had mentioned how much of a wiggle-worm he was (seems like I remember that). Anyhow, there was just something about Compass here that just didn't add up to the more conventional probabilities. We'll see.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Yeah, well, the bumps in conjunction w/the bad foot/leg is suspicious. What you could do is use other methods than the cup/nylon and see what the results are. How many days of Ronidazole has the bird had total and when did the meds stop?

fp


----------



## quincar23

HE HAS HAD THE RONIDAZOLE 4 DAYS; I HAVEN'T GIVIN HIM ANY TODAY THO
and to clarify how i was feeding him before: i had a syringe that i cut the tip off of, the syringe only had a diameter of alittle over 1/2 inch, and i realized yesterday that the edge was kinda rough.... so last night i took a little medicine cup that holds 3 tsp and has a diameter of about 1 1/2 inches, and covered it with a piece of my old nylons and secured it with a rubber band, and cut a hole in it so he can shove his beak in it to feed...
so is the NEW way better or should i find another way?


----------



## quincar23

*OK, another retarded question by carisa...*

the poop facter... do they poop less when they get older? i have to wear a special "poop apron" when i feed or play with compass because i don't want poop all over me... i see pics of all you pigeon parents/ friends, with your pigeons sitting on your shoulder or roaming around your house... and i guess what i'm saying is; do they get semi- house trained?

and.....

compass today:
he is really getting the hang of flying... he flew about 20 feet today! and even flew from my kids swing set to my chest! i tried to get him to land on my hand/ arm but he chose my chest instead! lol
he is learning the trade of eating seed just fine, i don't think i'll have a problem completely weaning him... i have been offering seed at meal time, i give hima 1/2 hr to 45 minutes to eat them and then i feel his crop and if its still pretty empty then i feed him some birdie formula...
his bumps are getting smaller and the scabs are starting to fall off; i put a wee little bit of A&D ointment on them... i think thats really been helping...
he's still a baldy in those areas but i'm sure that'll take while to grow back or grow in...
oh! and about grit.... how much and how often?
thanks everone!
carisa


----------



## Maggie-NC

Hi Carissa

I'll start with the grit question first. Don't worry about him getting grit right now particularly since you're still hand feeding with Exact. I wouldn't give him any grit until he is eating on his own totally.

I see nothing wrong with how you are feeding him except like fp said the hose may not have enough elasticity. When we have used that method we use a stretchy material called (I think) Vet Wrap. Comes in different colors and we also use it for broken wings, legs, etc. That is its real use - broken bones. We just attach it to a 20 cc syringe that has been cut off at the bottom to remove the tip, secure it with a rubber band pretty tight and then cut an "x" in the center. They don't need to stick their beaks in up to their nostrils though some eager beavers do.

As long as he is being fed Exact expect a lot of poops. It does get much, much better as he is weaned and if he is healthy the poops are pretty firm and not nearly as large - that is, unless they are nesting and hold the poop and then produce some poops that are mind boggling in size. You are still far from that part for now.


----------



## quincar23

this is as straight and frontal as i could get with out someone assisting me...
the bottom pic is of his feet and unfortunately it doesn't show very good the size difference... the circled foot is the one that is alittle smaller...


----------



## quincar23

*he likesa the seed!*

ok! i guess i need to ask how much seed and how often do i give him seed! because i put some on a small shallow plate in his cage and he ate them all! his crop is full ( oh and it is totally weird feeling being all bumpy) i haven't seen him drink water on his own yet and that concerns me; he will if i dip my finger in it, but i shouldn't have to tell him when to drink, right?
now i guess i need that grit info... like a tsp a couple times a week or what?
and is it ok that he is eating seeds already? or should i make them be a treat for the next few days and feed him that kaytee stuff still? i guess i am just concerned about him getting constipated (if they even can) if his crop isn't empty in the morning, i am going to get on here for some advice...
i am such a worry wort with this little guy...


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Carissa,

I guess we should remind folks that when they cut things to modify them for 
feeding that they need to find a way to soften the edges, so this is good to
bring this up as an issue.

I think Compass is really adorable, and such a fluffy little one, just darling.
I think either method of feeding is fine, though as Maggie mentioned, using
vet wrap might be more flexible than nylon. Even maybe cotton jersey material, if you can't get vet wrap. The syringe is fine also if you can 'knock down' the sharp edges on it or the little cup.....I don't imagine you have
that much longer to go w/this mode of feeding Compass so enjoy it
while it lasts .

This isn't really a scientific method in terms of figuring out what may have 
caused the bumps because you gave Ronidazole, treated externally w/peroxide and Bentadine and switched the feeding method. Given this, the good news is that your pij looks good, seems happy and well adjusted and
the bumps are improving. Next we want to see some pin feathers growing 
in @ the couple of bald spots that are visible in the pictures, so keep an eye
out for them  . 

The foot that seems smaller than the other foot, is this the leg/foot that
also is bothering Compass and what if any symptoms is Compass still having
w/the foot/leg that was bothering him/her?

To tell you the truth on the seeds, I don't measure the seeds when they
start transitioning to feeding themselves because I just leave seed and
water out for them all the time. I can usually tell that they've been in
their seed and water because there are seeds in the water and seeds @ the
bottom of the cage strewn around. Then I just check the crop to make sure
they are also getting inside the crop as well. Figure a range of 5-20% of their body weight in terms of seed consumption. If you believe that this little
one is overdoing it and in the morning the crop is still full, this would definitely
be a concern and the seeds should be pulled and water given. Then you'll
have to keep a very close eye and for the time being remain involved in the
feeding process. 

fp

You might want to make sure that the bowls you use are untippable, they do
sell ceramic ones pretty reasonably at the Pet stores.


----------



## quincar23

FP- good evening!
1st off: how soon do you think i should start seeing pin feathers in his bald spots?
2nd: i don't know if his foot/leg hurts him... when i examine it or touch it, he doesn't seem to mind... the only reason i think there's something wrong with it is because when he walks, he kinda limps and sometimes ( not always) when he's standing he lifts it up so he's balancing on the other foot... and of course the fact that its alittle bit smaller than the other... 
3rd: feeding him seed; he ate enough tonight to fill his crop... so should i stop the kaytee baby bird food all together? (as long as he's eating enough seed of course, and the crops empty tomorrow morning)
thank you 
carisa


----------



## quincar23

pidgey... do you have any thoughts/ ideas?


----------



## Pidgey

Feathers are curious in a situation like that. It seems like the body, when finally not irritated any longer, just wakes up one day and says, "BOING!!!" It's something that will probably begin in the next week or two provided we got whatever it was.

They will stand on one foot starting somewhere at this point in life as a matter of... practice. They'll even sleep one-footed, alternating them. I don't really have an idea what his problem is or was with that. Did he always favor that leg?

Frankly, he looks like he's suffered malnutrition in his formative days, judging by the feathers so if it were me, I'd probably augment his food intake with at least one KayTee meal per day for another few weeks. His feathers won't look too much better until he does his first molt so that's going to be awhile.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

If you hadn't told me which foot was smaller, by the way, I'm not sure I'd have been able to pick it--it's not so obvious to me. I've caught myself looking at several pigeon feet for that same thing before.

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

pidgey- so maybe i am overexagerating this whole foot ordeal... maybe even the limping... don't pigeons have a "walk" to them? 
what do you mean his feathers look like he once suffered from malnutrition? by the coloring or lack of luster?
i don't even know what he should look like at his age ( as a healthy fledgling)
carisa


----------



## Pidgey

Kinda' hard to describe but he looks a bit rumpled. We'd have to find some pictures of some exceptionally healthy birds to compare him with. If it's any consolation, the bulk of orphaned ferals that I end up with are like that.

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

pidgey- ohh, like how he's so "fluffy" looking?
well i guess as long as he's healthy i'll get to see the new him in awhile...
could his coloring change when he molts; how old are they when they molt?


----------



## Pidgey

He'll mostly look like he does now. Sometimes they darken up a little, it just depends. Seems like they usually do their first molt at three months.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

When you bathe them using soap the feathers will get fluffy but they should straighten out and lose some of the cute fluffy appearance.

I did finally see what you were talking about in terms of one foot being 
larger than the other, and yes you're correct about that. If there is
no other problem w/the leg or foot other than one being larger in proportion
than the other, then I seriously wouldn't worry about it. Compass is coming
right along. 

I would be concerned though about having him outdoors loose if you want to
keep him as a pet, this puts him/her in the awkward position of not being in a
flock situation and having the benefit of the flock warning when a predator
is around. Also, pets just aren't on their toes outdoors in the way that 
ferals living the feral lifestyle are.

fp


----------



## quincar23

i only take him outside once a day if the weathers nice and its no more than a 1/2 hour ( believe me i have more important things to do with my own 3 kids, than to be able to play for hours with compass outside ...
i am never more than 2 feet from him if he isn't practicing flight, he' always either on my lap or on the ground snuggling up to my thigh.... i read the "tooter's story" and i have learned from victers mistake... i will NEVER leave him alone outside for even a second!! don't worry about that....
but tahnks for the concern...


----------



## Pidgey

Well, it's one of those junctures in life. If you're going to keep the bird in for the rest of its life (several years) then if he ever gets out, it would be very tough for him to survive or even find his way to the back door from 10 feet away. Individual birds vary, of course--some are remarkably savvy.

What we did with our first bird was to take walks around the neighborhood with her on my shoulder from before she could fly. We even introduced her to the locals in one particular place in the evenings and would let her fly up to them and spend several minutes to a few hours at first. She'd always fly down to us when we started to leave. Eventually, she'd spend the night with them, then two nights in a row and then three. We went to vacation in Peru for a couple of weeks and she survived the entire time with them (we put out a 50-lb sack or two of milo under the pole barn that they stayed at). 

She still lives with us today and that was the fall of 2000. Not every story like that is going to end well, of course.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Read Lolitta's Mom's story as well, that bird didn't make it, Carissa. And of course there are other stories of single bird's that happen into someone's life that posts here hanging around their house by their lonesome and then
get struck by a hawk. 

It's not so much how much or little time, it's that a life indoors w/humans teaches them that food is illimitable and life has no predators. Yet when they go outdoors w/you, they do have predators except that you don't have the instincts and survival tools and skills that mother nature has given a feral
flock and can't always warn Compass or scoop Compass up in time to bring
in doors when a hawk is laying quietly in wait for Compass. I'm assuming perhaps incorrectly, that when Pidgey says that his first bird still lives w/them
he means w/the ferals that stay in his barn as opposed to indoors w/him
in his house w/Lin. At any rate, this topic was touched on briefly in the beginning when you found Compass, and perhaps you could think on this
part of Compass' arrangements w/you some more. It's better to make a choice around keeping as a protected pet or releasing as a feral, jmo.

fp


----------



## quincar23

if i decide not to keep him ( which maybe likely because i have a 1200 sq ft house with 5 people {me, my husband and 3 kids} and 2 cats) i don't think i have room for a proper cage (what size would that be if i did keep him?)...
and i haven't ever seen a pigeon where i live ( in the country, alot of farms) there are alot of morning doves, but no pigeons... i don't know where i could introduce him to any ferals...
the only place i have seen pigeons is in the nearest city; about 7 miles away and there are only a few... i have seen alot more in the next city over but its like 12 miles away...
it all depends really on how happy compass could be living with us... could he be happy living in a cage, only coming out to visit in the evening when the kids are in bed and the cats locked up? just doesn't sound ideal... but i have never had a bird, let alone a pigeon... what do you think?


----------



## feralpigeon

Have you been back to the place where you picked Compass up at to hang and 
have a look-see? Do you have a garage or perhaps shed? 

As for cages, Petco and the like have collapsible dog cages w/slide out trays
in the bottom for cleaning that do well as bird cages. 

fp


----------



## quincar23

my husband found him at his work site 1 1/2 hrs from my house... way too far to drive to try and socialize him...
how big of a dog cage... my husband has a dog cage from his dog,(the dog lives at his parents because of my cats) it is about 4ft by 4ft... would that be good enough? and what about him being happy a caged animal?


----------



## Pidgey

That bird lives out in the top floor of the detached garage that I open sometimes when I think it's safe. When we got her, we lived about 3/4 of a mile away and she'd fly the quarter mile from our house to the place where the flock was that we introduced her to. We'd let her out in the morning and she'd fly over there (or we'd drive her over and let her out of the car) and then she's spend the day with them. We'd drive up over there in the evening after work and she'd fly down to the car and we'd go home.

When we moved, we'd let her out of the house and she'd fly the mile to her old haunt and we'd pick her up when we got off work, same as always. Eventually, we got her some company and built the loft in the top of the garage. She's got an extended family now. 

One night, some skateboarders scared her off of Lin's hand at the house after she'd picked her up and she went back to the flock. Lin had to go get her again. That was quite a time. She stays around the house anymore and doesn't even like to get out of the loft most days. I think she's just too conscious of what dangers are out there.

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

*compass today...*

he isn't gaining weight like i'd like but i am weaning him from the "kaytee" stuff... i have to keep reminding him to eat the seed and drink his water... but he is eating and pooing just fine... his scabs are just about to fall off and the bumps under them are sooo much smaller... 
i started him him on baytril last night; just in case; 
i let him walk around the house last night for about a hour... he loved it! he was very curious...
i will post a new pic of him when his scabs do fall off... ya'll can tell me how he looks then...
i bought him a bird toy, its a little mirror with a bell, that hangs from the top of his cage... he actually "plays" with it... picks it and makes it ding, then looks at it all funny... then repeats that process and couple more times...he's so cute!
talk to ya later
carisa


----------



## feralpigeon

Carisa, the cage you're describing sounds fine size wise, in fact, pretty generous as cages go. If s/he gets some time outside of the cage every day for a couple of hours around the house, that's just fine.

Just keep an eye on the weight. You can also soak puppy kibble and push pieces to the back of the throat to help during the transition to seed to keep
the nutrition/weight up.

fp


----------



## quincar23

FP- puppy food huh? soak it in water right?
how much should he weigh at about 4 weeks?
carisa


----------



## feralpigeon

It's a variable especially w/ferals as they are a mixed breed. It would be like
saying that a mongrel puppy should weigh a certain amount at a certain age....
it really depends on what's in the genes. At four weeks I might think of a 4 week old feral as being somewhere in a range of 200 grams to 250 dependant
on how big a feral. 

But more than what they should be, is if your bird starts to drop
weight while transitioning and taking the medication, then I'd augment
a bit just so the bird didn't lose ground. Remember, I don't have a loft
per se, and birds here get quite a bit more attention than a bird in a loft/flock
setting.

Soaked puppy chow (especially like Paul Newman's) will help the bird to maintain weight yet not be an entire throw back mentally for the bird
to formula days. 

fp


----------



## quincar23

he weighs roughly 240 g... so i guess he isn't a runt, like i thought... ( i have no one to compare him to either though  )
thanks again FP


----------



## feralpigeon

No prob....

fp


----------



## quincar23

when i put a shallow pan of water out for compass to take his 1st bath with; he looked alittle hesitant... so i put him in the water and he just stood there... so i wiggled my finger in the water... and .... he pretty much DOVE in!  he made quite the mess and i think he wasn't very good at bathing himself yet, he got soaked... and would fall on his face when trying to wash up.... my son & i were cracking up! it was hilarious! so i had to snuggle with him wrapped in a towel for alittle while....
one question though: are the young ones supposed to look this hysterically clumbsy when taking their 1st baths?


----------



## Pidgey

Well, imagine taking a bath without opposable thumbs to handle your washcloth... well, shoot, imagine taking a bath without even having hands, especially when trying to wash your face. It gets even worse because they're doggone near being waterproof and the effect will be greater in a couple of months--he won't hardly even develop a wet spot.

So, it's not that they're SUPPOSED to look hysterically clumsy--they just can't help it.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

quincar23 said:


> when i put a shallow pan of water out for compass to take his 1st bath with; he looked alittle hesitant... so i put him in the water and he just stood there... so i wiggled my finger in the water... and .... he pretty much DOVE in!  he made quite the mess and i think he wasn't very good at bathing himself yet, he got soaked... and would fall on his face when trying to wash up.... my son & i were cracking up! it was hilarious! so i had to snuggle with him wrapped in a towel for alittle while....
> one question though: are the young ones supposed to look this hysterically clumbsy when taking their 1st baths?



My impression of life forms in general is that jouveniles tend to be a tad
clumsy/unpredictible, and it's normal for them to 'cross the normal boundaries' while they explore their new adult world with their becoming
adult bodies and minds/instincts that haven't quite grown into 
all the adult fixings yet of their given species'. I have a family of Opposum in my backyard, and the jouveniles are just as goofy I swear, and I get quite the kick out of them every spring time. Really quite something to watch them
grow up and fill out into young adults and remembering their visits and attempts to hang out w/me in the basement when they were younger.

fp


----------



## quincar23

*New pic of Compass...*

this pic was taken this morning before his feeding... as you can see his bumps are nearly gone... still has the bald spots, but they aren't any worse...he's doing alot better with his flying... pretty much going were ever he wants, but the highest he's flown from the ground is about 4 ft to the counter, but distance is still about 15 ft...
he is still not eating the seed until his crops full, so i do still give him the kaytee as a supplement, not very much tho, maybe 2 tsp, twice a day... his poops are good, darker if he's had more seed that kaytee... and he has found his water! he drinks alot, there for "pee's" alot, he he he!
i think his eye color is changing... the outer rim is turning red... is it too early for them to be changing?
he weighed in at 280 g yesterday... so he's gaining weight, yay!

so how does he look?
carisa


----------



## Pidgey

Well, flash pictures tend to "flatten" the subject so he actually looks a little funny. The picture looks like it's taken full on the side but you can tell that's not quite the case because the tail feathers look too short for him to be flying. And, of course, a picture is a snapshot in time and often doesn't convey the possibility that an individual might be horrifically ornery.

Is he getting into everything at this point?

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

here are these better?


----------



## Pidgey

No, that's terrible--you're letting THAT bird stand on THOSE unfinished boards before they're sealed!?!

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

PIDGEY you better be joking!
why,( if you're not) could they hurt him?


----------



## Pidgey

No--but he could hurt them with but one poop!!!

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Seriously, he ain't lookin' bad. He might make a pigeon yet.

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

NO SARCASISM ALLOWED, he he he! you guys are my pigeon gods, so every word, i take seriously! you had me freaked out (again : D) 
so does his tail feathers look long enough in these pics? (you know, Pidgey all-mighty-pigeon-god, i need reassurence like every 2 days, so humor me! lol )
thank you
carisa, the worry wort
( i'm gonna make that be my signature, ha ha)


----------



## Pidgey

Lemme' tell you what I ain't: a pigeon god. And as sure as you begin to feel like you are, something bad happens to knock you off Mt. Olympus. Or, more to the point, something bad happens to a bird in your care or one you're trying to help otherwise. I'm kinda' superstitious that way.

I can't blame you for worrying--I don't think I ever stop.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Carrisa, I think he's looking really good in the pics. His feathers look good and
healthy. Yes, the bald spot under the chin is still there but the bumps are
gone and hopefully you will begin to see some pin feathers coming in there soon. 

You know, you can get a free picture posting site at Webshots and other 
places and can just give the link there. Then you can have your before and
after pics in one spot for people w/attention deficit issues to get to see them 
all in one spot  .

Anyway, Compass is coming right along.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

Compass looks wonderful! What a terrific job you have done.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

It's so good to see Compass growing big and getting nice and healthy  

Excellent work, Ms Worrywart


----------



## quincar23

i stopped giving him the baytrill over the weekend because he didn't eat for 2 days ( not even the kaytee) i was too worried... but he's eating fine now and i don't think there is anything wrong with his foot, i think it was all my imagination... he is quit the character... he likes to land on my head! when i let him out to play, if i walk by him and leave the room; he has to "be with me" and always flys up to my shoulder ( or head lol)
he moved into his new apartment... i think he really likes it... he either sits in the "doorway" to his apartment, on top of it...
he makes an awful mess with his seed now too, like he's playing with his food...
i think i see some spots where pin feathers are gonna sprout... they are little tiny black spots in the bald areas... everyone i show him to thinks he looks funny, because of his baldness... the big meanies! he's cute, regardless of his baldness!
carisa


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Bald babies are cute too  

Nice apt he has there. You've done great work with Compass. BTW, love the name -- where did you come up with it?


----------



## quincar23

flitsnowzoom- i got the name "compass" from the childrens show curious george. there is a pigeon named "compass" on it... of course you have to give my kids all credit for it!
carisa


----------



## Pidgey

New feathers do start out looking like black spots so we're probably getting there. It oughta' go pretty fast now, I expect. He looks snug as a bug in a rug in there, huh?

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

*keel/ sternum*

quick question: should i be able to feel compass' keel/sternum easily? it doesn't stick out all gross and skinny like, but i can feel it no problem...


----------



## Pidgey

In a truly emaciated bird, you'd be able to literally hold the bird up by pinching the keel between your fingers and it'd feel like a butter knife. In an overweight bird, you just about can't find the bone at all. In most birds, you can definitely feel it, but it's like the bottom of a "V"--it has muscle tapering up and away from it on either side.

Pidgey


----------



## quincar23

no its not at all gross, i can especially feel it when his crops empty...
i have only been feeding him the kaytee in the a.m. and evening... i am trying to fully wean him.... he doesn't eat nearly as many seeds as i'd like during the day... his crop is either 1/4 to a 1/2 full when he feeds himself... he likes to make a huge seed disaster, and when he does i just poked them with my finger and he'll eat a few then go away...
and.... he is totally trying to explore EVERYTHING! he flies up to the top of the entertainment center ( which is about 6 ft tall) and knocks down whatever he can... he also started "grooming" me yesterday; every wrinkle in my clothes or my hair or earrings,.... such a goof ball!
does this sound like typical "teenage" hood?


----------



## Pidgey

No, it doesn't. You usually define teenagers by their defiance. They sometimes go through a period where they're rotten little brats who'll bite you and try to take over the place. It's an act and if you're silly enough to deed the property over to them, it just gets worse. And then, there are the true lovey dovey's that are very sweet.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Sweet, defiant, goofiness, clumsiness/awkwardness, and many more
qualities can be assigned.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

Compass is an absolute doll and I love his quarters.

Not only are pigeons all of the above but I would include mischievous, inquisitive, self gratifying, humble and more, but, most of all, absolutely adorable.


----------



## quincar23

here's another question i am gonna throw out there... should i get compass a friend ( maybe even a mate if he is indeed a boy) i might buy a she-pigeon... would that be a good idea? and if it is, when i should i get her ( now, in a few months, ect)
i think he'll be happier with a friend... i try and let him out with me as often as possible, but it is usually only at each feeding (which is roughly 15 minutes) and midday for about a half hour, and then in the evening for about a hour... he would LOVE to come out all the time but my 2 yr old and the cat factor, it just wouldn't work.... anyways what i'm trying to say is i feel guilty that i can't spend alot more time with him...
so do you think another pigeon would make him happy?
oh and his "nest" is just a bowl with alittle old material in it... is this good enough? (it was perfect when he was alot smaller) but now his tail feathers stick way out...its not a small cereal bowl, its alot bigger...
anyways let me know what you think....


----------



## feralpigeon

Don't know that I'd buy one, probably can find a friend for Compass right here
the board. Might think about contacting Rocky17, I think there might be a youngster all fixed up that had splay leg when younger and possibly similar in age and that might be a possibility. But if not Jazz, I'm sure Terry Whatley
can help you out. There always pigeons to adopt.

BTW, whenever you give meds to Compass you should keep an eye out for
appetite and food compsumption as many of them interfere w/their desire to 
eat by making them nautious. You can do simple and small augmenting of 
their intake w/either seed pops or soaked puppy chow, don't have to revert 
all the way to tubing unless for one reason or other a bird is pretty sick and
your helping them not to lose ground. The two I had w/the foot issues have
resolved very well and are being very frisky these days  .

fp


----------



## Reti

He has a lovely little home and he looks so comfy.
Enjoy him while he is still a little baby. Later on when he reaches maturity you will know what gender he is and you can get him get him a mate.
I doubt he is bored right now and he enjoys fully his time out. JMO.

Reti


----------



## quincar23

*another question...*

compass is getting pin feathers all over his feet and ankles! is this normal? they came out of no where.... and his face "baldness" is getting better (slowly but surely!)


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Absolutely normal for him. Bet he has "feather pants" and maybe even feathery toes. Sounds like he's doing great and going to be a knockout!


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## quincar23

here's compass as of last sunday, on his favorite spot, (someone's head lol!... this head being my daughter molly's)
he is getting big... 
i have him down to one kaytee feeding a day (in the morning about 8 am) and he eats seed the rest of the day... he has been down to that one feeding for 3 days now, he weighs 300 g.... so when should i completely wean him? he was a meanie yesterday, he kept "biting" me & my kids... i think he's mad at me for not giving him the kaytee, lol.


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## quincar23

oh and about the feathers on his legs; ... i have been looking at other ferals and i haven't seen one that has feathers all the down to their feet... everyone i saw their feathers stopped at their knees....???


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## flitsnowzoom

Well, Miss Molly certainly has a nice feather bob there  

The feathers may be a bit rare in the wild but they are out there. I think someone else not too long ago also had a feral pidgie that was getting feather pants. The fancy feet on those pedigreed pigeons had to come from somewhere 

You have certainly done a beautiful job with Compass (and Molly,  )


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## Zaise

They're both cuties!


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## Maggie-NC

Loved the picture of Compass and Molly - and the sweet little face peeping in the background.  I am so glad Compass is doing well.

As to the feeding. Normally, when we wean ours and cut back to one feed a day, we feed them that one meal at night - seems like it gives them more incentive to eat the next morning. We're weaning two right now and had been feeding them 1 meal a day but today we have cut them off completely. We try to determine how much seed they're eating and also weigh them about every 2 days to make sure they are not losing weight. If they are losing, then we go back to hand feeding once/day.

You can try cutting Compass off hand feeding entirely for a day or two and see how it goes. Some catch on quickly, others are a little slower.


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## quincar23

thank you for all the compliments on my compass and my molly... i am in the process of uploading some pics on webshots, i only have dial up so it takes awhile  ... but slowly & surely i will have a whole bunch of my kiddos and compass together  
here's the link if your interested in seeing some... i have a pic of compass' "growing" feather pants too if you wanna take a look and tell me if i am crazy or not  

http://community.webshots.com/user/quincar23?vhost=community


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> thank you for all the compliments on my compass and my molly... i am in the process of uploading some pics on webshots, i only have dial up so it takes awhile  ... but slowly & surely i will have a whole bunch of my kiddos and compass together
> here's the link if your interested in seeing some... i have a pic of compass' "growing" feather pants too if you wanna take a look and tell me if i am crazy or not
> 
> http://community.webshots.com/user/quincar23?vhost=community


Yep, looks like some pantaloons in the works.!


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## quincar23

*another question...*

is it typical for the youngins to lose a tail feather here and there? the reason i ask is because he lost one 2 days ago and another today, both while flying...


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> is it typical for the youngins to lose a tail feather here and there? the reason i ask is because he lost one 2 days ago and another today, both while flying...


Probaby staring to molt. His tail will be funny looking. There will be all these gaps where the feathers have fallen out.


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## quincar23

molt? at seven weeks old?


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> molt? at seven weeks old?


Well, they will start to molt about this age, but not the tail feathers. That comes on about 3 1/2 to 4 months old I think. All of my young birds are between 4 and 5 months and I've got some pretty sad looking tails out there. Especially when they are flying!! Not sure what would cause the tail feathers to come out at this age.


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## quincar23

*and another question*

when will compass get his "wattle/ cere"?


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## Pidgey

Birds vary, but it should start whitening up in a month or so.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

quincar23 said:


> when will compass get his "wattle/ cere"?


He has one right now, it's just not white as in an adult, it's an age range and right before your eyes, it will change color. I have seen them begin to change color around three months.

fp


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## quincar23

*couple new pics*

i posted a couple new pics today... i can see a whiteish color change on his wattle! wow that was like over night i swear!


http://community.webshots.com/album/559327250AQrsOF?vhost=community


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## TAWhatley

Compass is such a cute pigeon! Loved the pictures!

Terry


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## Reti

Adorable baby. You've done a great job with him.

Reti


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## quincar23

*~Hello everybody~*

a quick hello to all my helpers! i have been busy, busy, busy! now that my kids are out of school for the summer i haven't been able to get on here barely at all.... a few quick questions...

how often should i give compass grit and how much?

is there a particular mix of seed that is best for pigeons?

how often should i allow compass to bathe?
he tries everytime i am rinsing dishes; but i only let him about once a week...

thank you all so much... i will be posting a new pic of him real soon, he's almost not bald! yay! he's gonna be a looker!


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## Charis

Hi Carisa,
Grit should always be available in a separate dish as should oyster shell.
Your local feed store should have a pigeon mix. I buy one that is made locally and is 14% protein. Most often it is sold in 50# bags so it will last you a long time. It will attract mice so make sure you keep the bag in a sealed container that they can't get in to.
Pigeons love to bathe and mine do so every day. For my house pigeons, I let them bathe in a tub in the kitchen sink. Otherwise they do make a bit of a mess. I love the way they lounge around after a bath. That's usually when Romey and Sammy like to lay in my lap. I love that.


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Carisa

Petsmart carries Kaytee Dove mix which our pigeons like. It has a lot of good stuff in it and the peas are not as large as they are in a pigeon mix that we also use. You can add to that basic mix - safflour seed (we get ours from either wal-mart or Lowes Building Supply), split peas, lentils, pop corn (not the kind used in microwave - just regular popcorn in a bag) and those can be bought at any grocery store. I know I've probably left something out but others will be along to help. We do add in Zupreem Avian Maintenance pellets (for cockatiels and small billed birds) and our pigeons love it.


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## quincar23

*Hello All...*

here's another update on compass; he recently started "croaking" about 2 weeks ago and about a week ago it's more of a "coo"... not fully a coo though, he's almost there tho i would guess... i think he is molting; he has been losing quite a few of his small feathers, and a couple tail feathers...
SHOULD HE BE LOSING ALOT OF FEATHERS WHEN HE MOLTS? i have no idea...what a molting bird looks like? he is still very attached to me, he totally dislikes my son, when ever my son tries to get compass on his hand, compass bites him (trying to inflict some major pain, but of course it doesn't hurt that bad) and he coo's angrily at him.... DO PIGEONS COO OUT OF ANGRY TOO?
his flying has turned well, weird i think... a few weeks ago he started doing this erratic flipping turning in a circle a few times then flies normal to whatever is destination was (its pretty hard to explain) is this normal? is he showing off, or does he has aome weird flying disorder? (lol if thats possible)
i am posting a new pic of him right now... go check him out.... tell me how my lil guy looks!
i still have no idea what i am doing with him ( lol) sometimes when i'm out and about i pull over when i see a flock of ferals... i try and watch their behavior and l;ook for similarities in compass... i wish there was a "pigeon parenting for dummies" book out there! he he he!
thanks for everyones help...


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## Coolpigeon

He is still kind of a baby bird and his voice is changing just like humans do when we get older.He is lossing his baby feathers and growing new ones because he is getting bigger. Our baby pigeons did the same thing that your bird is doing.Boy birds are sometimes more palyful and get upset if you try to get them especially if you put your hand inside their cage because it is their home.I think he is just more use to you and not your son that is why he pecks at him and not you but when he gets older he will do it to you too just to play.


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## Margarret

Carisa,

Compass looks great! Yes, they loose a lot of feathers when moulting. Sometimes it looks like something plucked my birds from the piles of feathers, especially in the morning, when they are in a moult. And they will moult tail and wing feathers as well as body feathers.

From the description of his flight, it sounds like Compass may be a roller. Roller pigeons turn backward flips in the air and will tumble several times then fly straight. I'm not an expert though, so will defer to more experienced members here.

Margarret


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## Margarret

Where did you get Compass? I looked back to the early posts but didn't see where he came from. That might give some clue as to if he is a roller or tumbler.

Margarret


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## quincar23

margarett, (sorry about the spelling)
to answer your question about where i got compass, well he was feral "hatched", and was rescued by my husband ( he was found on the ground around alot of heavy constuction equipment) we got him when he was roughly 10 days old... i have no idea what a tumbler or roller is... aren't those pigeon breeds? so i doubt he's either of those... but he does indeed has something differant about his flying... every chance i get i try and watch the local ferals to see if they fly like he does and i have never seen them doing anything "fancy" like he does... so i am clueless... maybe he's just a weirdo, "compass the weirdo" , i think he just got his full name! lol...
thanks


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## flitsnowzoom

So glad you and Compass are still together! Just because he's a feral doesn't mean that mom or dad or the grandfolk can't have been rollers and tumblers. These birds do get lost and may be lucky enough to join a flock and have families. Anyway, it makes a good story, right?!  
He's not weird, the term is "special" or "gifted".


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## quincar23

*my monthly update LOL...*

hello all! 
1st of all compass is doing great... i'm pretty sure he is a he... he does the whole "coo & then bite ya" thing as far as dancing i'm not sure if he does it yet or i haven't recognized it yet...
i do have a question about his size... he now weighs approximately 350 g's and measures about 13" from beak to the tip of his tail... i feel as if he is small... is his weights and measurements considered small? he is 3 months now, will he get any taller or fatter?


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## quincar23

and i posted a new pic of him today... let me know what ya think...


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## KIPPY

Loved the pictures, what a lucky little guy, and you did a great job.

We have a feral Darlington, she has the feathered legs down to her toes.Not sure how that happen.


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## Pidgey

Well, Compass made a grown-up pigeon after all that worry, huh? He's lookin' pretty good and spoiled.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Carisa, he grew up to be a beautiful pigeon. His size seems normal to me for a feral and he looks very healthy and happy. You've done a marvelous job with him. Thanks for the new pictures. It's always fun to see them grow up.

I doubt he will grow much more. I would "guesstimate" that most of our ferals average about 325-350 grams.


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## Zaise

I've been following this thread all along, and let me just say...WOW! Compass really has made a drastic improvement! He sure has matured into one beauty of a pigeon!


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## quincar23

i caught compass trying to "groom" newbie! woo-hoo! i think a friendship has bloomed!


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## Charis

Are you going to call her, Newbie? I think it's kind of cute...Miss Newbie.


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## quincar23

i have had newbie for about 2 weeks now; so i was wondering if anybody could help me try and figure out if its a girl or boy?...
and with compass; do girl pigeons bite? like all the time? compass is a biter... he bites ALL the time... more so now that newbie is here... and he does his "fat neck, agressive coo" when he bites... i really really want to know if he is indeed a he... if i posted a video of him and newbie could you guys tell me what their sexes are?
they nuzzle all the time now, they are definetly friends, but are they lovers? LOL! newbie has not once bite me or tried, and has never made that loud coo that compass does... only a sound grunt and very very soft coo, and it usually only does the soft coo when its nuzzling compass...
please help me! i am way to curious! I NEED TO KNOW!!!
thank you....
carisa


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## Charis

Carisa,
We always like to see movies. 
Sure does sound like Compass is acting protective of Miss Newbie. My Sammy is protective of Romey and pecks me to protect her.
Sure sounds like you have a couple of lovebirds. If you're not careful, you could have a whole flock living in your house.


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> i have had newbie for about 2 weeks now; so i was wondering if anybody could help me try and figure out if its a girl or boy?...
> and with compass; do girl pigeons bite? like all the time? compass is a biter... he bites ALL the time... more so now that newbie is here... and he does his "fat neck, agressive coo" when he bites... i really really want to know if he is indeed a he... if i posted a video of him and newbie could you guys tell me what their sexes are?
> they nuzzle all the time now, they are definetly friends, but are they lovers? LOL! newbie has not once bite me or tried, and has never made that loud coo that compass does... only a sound grunt and very very soft coo, and it usually only does the soft coo when its nuzzling compass...
> please help me! i am way to curious! I NEED TO KNOW!!!
> thank you....
> carisa


If it looks like a male and acts like a male, you just might get surprised!!  
The past two years, we had birds that acted like cocks and got shipped with "the boys" during race season and THEN they laid an egg. They had us fooled big time. They even fought in the baskets like the other cocks did, so we were pretty sure............we were wrong.........


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## quincar23

*HELP!! i am such an idiot!!!*

newbie flew away! 
i took them outside to bath and they were doing great, they both bathed and then were sunning themselves and i went to bring them in and newbie flew up on the roof.... and so i stayed there holding compass because newbie always flys to him and all of a sudden newbie flew away!!!  i am so sad!! i ran after her/ it and tried following but lost sight of her....
is there any chance she'll come back?
i am sooo sooo dumb! why in the hell did i let her out like that?! my kids are crushed...
is there anything i can do to help her want to come back?
please help!!!
i am so sorry; i am such a loser!


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> newbie flew away!
> i took them outside to bath and they were doing great, they both bathed and then were sunning themselves and i went to bring them in and newbie flew up on the roof.... and so i stayed there holding compass because newbie always flys to him and all of a sudden newbie flew away!!!  i am so sad!! i ran after her/ it and tried following but lost sight of her....
> is there any chance she'll come back?
> i am sooo sooo dumb! why in the hell did i let her out like that?! my kids are crushed...
> is there anything i can do to help her want to come back?
> please help!!!
> i am so sorry; i am such a loser!


Carisa, I'm so sorry. There is a chance that Newbie will come back, but there's really no way to know. I sure hope he/she does. Please let us know. If he's attached to Compass, putting Compass outside in a cage, for a while might help if Newbie is around in the area. Good luck.


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## quincar23

lovebirds: i had compass out there for a little while in his cage; but he hates it... will he be fine freaking out for a little while? i don't want to cause him any stress..

i am so mad at myself


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> lovebirds: i had compass out there for a little while in his cage; but he hates it... will he be fine freaking out for a little while? i don't want to cause him any stress..
> 
> i am so mad at myself


Well, I wouldn't want Compass unhappy. So, no I wouldn't leave him out if he doesn't like it outside. That's not fair to him, cause he don't understand. I would just keep an eye out for Newbie and if he shows up, then take Compass back out. Refresh my memory........was Newbie banded ?


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## quincar23

yes newbie was banded... a green plastic one and a black round one on each leg... there was no numbers or anything on either...
i'll put compass back out for a little while; and i'll keep my eyes peeled for newbie...
he doesn't hate being outside, he hates being in the outside cage... we use it for transportation; its not "his" cage


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## Lovebirds

Never mind,,,I found the pictures. Did you leave the bands on the birds legs? Just in case someone should find it like they did last time........you never know. If Newbie doesn't come back to you, it may, in a few days, when it gets hungry, "find" someone to help it.


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## quincar23

yes i left the bands on... its a good thing too... i really hope it comes back tho


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## Lovebirds

I know this is a LONG SHOT........but, I know a guy over in Oxford, MI that has pigeons. I'll shoot him an email JUST IN CASE Newbie should show up at his house. He's only about 13 miles, as the pigeon flies, from you. Worth a shot. If Newbie did show up there, because he's not banded with an identifible band, this guy would just keep it or run it off. If he has his birds out, there's a possibility that Newbie could hook up with them and follow them. I know....sounds crazy......but stranger things have happened.


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## quincar23

there's a man who lives 1/2 mile "as the bird flies" from me and he has pigeons; i don't know what kind he has but i see them on top of his barn all the time... i am hoping newbie will go there; at least that way she'll be with a flock... maybe i'll stop over there and ask him to keep a look out for her...
thank you so much for being so nice to me about this; because i know i don't deserve it, i should've never let her outside so soon...


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## Maggie-NC

Carisa, don't beat yourself up about this. I expect all of us have had this happen - I know I have, at least 3 times but we were able to get ours back in pretty quick. Just continue to stay on the lookout, particularly at power lines. He may still be near by but hasn't quite figured out how to get back. 

About 14 years ago, we had taken our very first pigeon to the beach with us. He was just a baby but grew up enough to fly well while we stayed there, even going on trips with the neighborhood doves. Shoot, we didn't know better either about letting him out but he would always come back. We brought him back home and when getting out of the truck, he shot by us and flew out of sight. My husband finally saw him a few houses down, sitting on a power line, watching us. We called to him continually and finally got a container with seed and rattled that a bit and the little devil flew straight down. Of course we snatched him up, kept him for a few days and then released him for good.

Don't give up hope.


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## Lovebirds

quincar23 said:


> there's a man who lives 1/2 mile "as the bird flies" from me and he has pigeons; i don't know what kind he has but i see them on top of his barn all the time... i am hoping newbie will go there; at least that way she'll be with a flock... maybe i'll stop over there and ask him to keep a look out for her...
> thank you so much for being so nice to me about this; because i know i don't deserve it, i should've never let her outside so soon...


I agree with Maggie...........I know it's hard, but don't be so hard on yourself. We all make mistakes. Just part of life........ We could all tell stories. 
I had a little bird that was sent to us to fly. It looked like one of our birds. Went out in the dark one morning to catch the birds and take them on a training toss. Caught the new bird instead of ours and took it 60 miles from here. Got home, walked in the loft and saw MY bird on the perch and said..."oh CRAP.........that was really smart RENEE".......the bird never came back here of course cause it didn't know where "here" was.........
About 4 months later, at an auction, a fellow flyer walked up to me and handed me the bird. It had gone to his loft but he didn't know it was in there.........(he had LOTS of birds........) and he had been flying it. 
Still have that bird in my loft as a breeder now..........


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## pigeonpoo

I did a similar thing just last week. My husband had taken the birds for a training flight about 35 miles from home. He rang me to say that one had stayed in the basket and what should he do. I told him it might be an eggy hen (even though I thought I'd felt them as I basketed them) and to bring it home. When he got back that evening I was horrified to find that, in my rush, I'd basketed one of my best stock cocks...and this was despite it having a blue ring on against the yellow rings all my other birds have!! What a sensible bird not to have flown out. It has never been in a basket and would no way have got home. Phew!!


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## quincar23

still no newbie  , but i have faith that she found her way home, where ever home was...
i weighed my compass and was surprised by how much weight he has gained; he has gained 70 grams! he now weighs 370 grams! woohoo... he is looking alot better, not so much like a "cancer patient"... i know thats mean, but i had no idea how awful they look when they molt! poor guy, but the new feathers are growing in quickly.
when are pigeons considered adults? compass is about 4 months old now... and still and agressive lil sh#t! LOL! he loves to play "attack" mommy! he picks on me the most; its so funny... he can't stand to NOT be on my head or shoulder, but he HAS to bite me always... its awful when he bites my ears! arghh! do you know how many goose bumps i get when he does that! eeck! its awful when he "coo- strikes" my inner ear!!! ha ha ha!
as soon as compass is fully feathered again i will post new pics ( i don't want to embaress him  ) how long does it usually take for their feathers to grow back?
thanks again guys


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## quincar23

*Oh My Goodness!!!...*

compass is a she!!!! she laid her 1st egg! there is a problem tho; its soft with no shell, just the membrane!!! what does this mean???
please, any info would be extremely helpful
thank you


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## TheSnipes

quincar23 said:


> compass is a she!!!! she laid her 1st egg! there is a problem tho; its soft with no shell, just the membrane!!! what does this mean???
> please, any info would be extremely helpful
> thank you


I'm not very sure but I think that usually points to calcium deficiency? Here is a link to another thread that was on here recently:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=22693&highlight=shell


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