# HELP..new abandoned hatchling not grown in 4 days



## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

MI was given a pigeon hatchling found in a carwash before hatched. Egg was cracked. The person hatched it themselves, and I think too early on top of that. I've been feeding it kaytee baby bird food around the clock and keeping it under a heat lamp around 90 F or a little more. It has been 4 days with no size growth. It has started making sounds, is very axtive now, has developed I think eyelid looking things, and the little tail bump. As u can c I know nothing about birds but have been researching. It is on its side or back a lot, but also sits on its feet. I'm feeding till crop is almost full, and feeding again when almost empty. It's pooping several times a day, but not growing. Does it still have a chance?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Thank you for your kindness shown.

The baby should have been left for the parents to care for it, they are so vulnerable at hatching and need parents pigeon milk. 

Here is a link on baby pigeons and what to feed it. Please read everything on it.

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/

The crop needs to be completely empty before feeding.

Baby needs to be warmed before feeding, as does the food. 

The baby needs nesting material to keep its footing (traction under its feet) underneath it, otherwise it may get splayed legs

Has the baby pooped alot? What do poops look like?

How do you know it hasn't grown, have you been weighing it?

*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*Thanks!*

Thank you for the quick response! I have it in a box on a towel for good traction. I am heating the food and the hatchling at all times. It was weak the first day but does seem to have tons of energy! It's pooping about 3 times a day and it'smostly brownish green with a tiny white today and very wet. I have weighed it day 2 through 4. It's weighing 0.6 lbs and I have measured it with a ruler while it's sitting (neck bent in, not stretched) and it is and was 2 1/2 inches. I'm concerned with it on it'sback so much, but have let it struggle to get on it's belly so it can build it's muscles. It is stronger and faster but no growth! It obly takes 1/2 to 1ml food per feeding every 2 to 4 hours depending on how fast crop empties.it is a vigorous eater at least.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Poop should be the consistency of ribbon of ice cream, not real thick but not watery either.

There is a recipie here somewhere mac milk diet for itty bitty newborns, it is best for hatchlings, I will see if I can find it.

Here is what a hatchling needs (Mac Milk crop replacer), it will give them a better chance of survival but it is not a guarantee.:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=653333&postcount=4*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you I will look at those links. Do u know if flipping around from its back to side is normal while they r still hatchlings? I wasn't sure if it was normal for them to be doing that or if they r always supposed to have their feet under them?but this could b how they learn to move and walk properly maybe?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

The pigeon is suppose to sit on its own feet. Feet underneath.
May be the setting of the nest makes him flipping on its back. Make a round donut towel and place him in the middle. The mother is sitting on the baby at this age, so you may consider to cover him with a soft fleece.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you. I just have it in abox on a flat towel. I will round it asap! NEW PROBLEM: the crop is filled with air!!! I thought it was full and still shouldn't be, but when I felt it it was all air! U can even hear little crackling if u listen closely. It was so hungry poor thing. I tried to massage it down, and could, but it puffs right back up! What do I do?!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post a pic?
How have you been feeding it and what are you feeding?
Kaytee Exact baby bird formula works well and you can get it at most pet shops.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

May be you are checking the wrong way. There are air sacs all over her body, also on the right and left side of the neck, towards the back.
The crop & feeding:
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*Air in crop with pics*































Here are a few images. Thank you both for your responses about this. I'm so worried because not only is it super tiny, but I think it is starving! The crop felt very different every other day. It wouldn't smash down flat, and you could tell it was full of food. Now it's so filled with air, it never goes down, and when I feed it I can only feed it a tiny bit because the crop will get way too inflated. I don't know how far they can stretch! I'm so worried about this little guy. Still very active but more active like he's starving. He has still pooped a couple times today and it looks the same as it did before this air issue.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*My feeding method*

Dima, I tried the link but it said the page did not exist 

Also, the feeding described is the feeding I'm using. the Kaytee Exact. I have a syringe that the end is cut off of, then latex was secured over the end with a slit in the latex so the hatchling can easily slip it's beak inside and get the formula. It does a great job of stretches its little neck out and eating using this method. It's also relatively clean this way and I think acts similarly to how it would be fed by its parents.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

If he is eating properly, the crop won't go 'completely flat', and it shouldn't.
Is he on heat? BEST is a heating pad set on LOW covered with a towel or fleece, making a little 'bowl' out of the fleece. I also put in a small floppy stuffed animal when I have a single baby so they can snuggle against it. They need the warmth to digest their food.
I use to use Kaytee hand feeding formula (which is very good), but switched to Zupreen. Here is my setup.........



I use the Baby Bottle method, MUCH easier than syringe.
(you can see the heating pad under the towel)


I use a small baby bottle and cut the tip off the nipple half way down (just enough to slide their beak into). Then cut the finger off a rubber glove and slide it over the nipple. Put a cross slit at the top of the glove (kind of surrounds their beak to help with the mess)
Your going to need to cut a SMALL hole in the nipple - just enough for baby to slip his beak into. I make it a little larger as they get bigger.
"Nuzzle" his beak gently with your fingers first to teach him how to eat.
Make sure formula (Exact hand feeding formula) is warm - NOT TOO HOT (warm on the "wrist test") Feeding small amounts at 1st.

Also, Hand fed babies usually grow at a little slower rate.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The syringe she is using works just as well as the bottle, and you don't need to use as much formula to fill the syringe. 
Are you sure it is air? Maybe the crop isn't emptying as it should. Maybe it's food that is staying in the crop. Try feeding warmed baby applesauce for a couple of feedings. It helps the food to pass through. You don't want to keep feeding if the food is staying in the crop. It has to empty first. Other wise you are just adding new food to old. It can cause problems. I would give the warmed, not hot applesauce for a couple of times. If it helps, then add a little bit in with the formula when you feed.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*same size but less air this morning-day 5*

MsFreebird, thanks for the info. and the pics! I sure hope my little one will get to the size of your guys I can tell this would turn out to be such a sweet bird! I will add a stuffed animal. It does seem like it tries to snuggle up to the sides. Glad to hear handfed babies grow a little slower, although today is day 5 and it's still exactly the same size. I'm interested to see if it's eyes open today, but not holding my breath. 

Jay3, thanks for the applesauce tip. I'll try to get some as soon as I can. This is crazy timing. I am getting married in 3 weeks, have company from out of state, my dog just had to have emergency kidney stone surgery (twice), and then I got this little guy! Lol But he sure is sweet! (my first experience with birds). I really feel confident that it was air in the crop, although this morning it seemed like their was a little, but not filled like yesterday. It felt completely hollow. I could massage it completely flat and it felt like nothing. Every other time it felt different....squishy but you could tell something was in there. 

Thank you guys, seriously! Please keep looking at this thread. I'm sure I will have more questions or something else will come up. This is very helpful....your tips and just support and people's own experiences.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Thank you for trying to help this baby, you have alot going on.

Make sure the applesauce is sugar free and no additives, if you do decide to use it. I feel mac milk is best for this little onegiven the circumstances on how the little one came to you.

How many poops are there today and how is it acting today? *


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

You are doing a great job, keeping him in a bowl may help him stay up right.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you spirit wings my fiance thinks i've gone OCD about this bird! Lol

Skyeking, there was a poop at 2am and another around 10am. It's acting fine actually, as far as I can tell. Thank goodness some of that air went away. I added a little stuffed an%mal parrot of my daughter's to the box and the little guy's in heaven nuzzling! Exactly what was needed and helping it stay on its feet instead of falling on its back as well! Really peaceful with the stuffed animal, then started peeping for food took food well but still so tiny I can only feed 1 ml at a time. 

I'm still heating him with a lamp from above and continuously monitoring the temp (90 to 92 degrees F).


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Poop is still dark green though with a little white. Is this normal when first born? Good consistency though.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Sugarbee said:


> Poop is still dark green though with a little white. Is this normal when first born? Good consistency though.


The poops are usually a little mushier when feeding formula. If he's pooping, he's getting food.
When I feed my babies, I fill their crop until if feels like a soft balloon. I don't let it empty 'completely'. I wait until its about 90% empty, then feed again. I'm constantly reaching in and feeling their crop, so its kind of massaging it at the same time.
Your doing a great job 
And yes, a tiny bit of 'natural' apple sauce mixed with the formula won't hurt


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you feed him make sure the syringe is tipped enough so that there is no air where he is sucking in the food. That helps for him not to suck in air.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*DAY 6, same size as day 1*

MsFreebird, thanks!  Jay3, I am over filling the syringe now, even if it means I'm wasting more food, just so that there's plenty of food with less risk of gulping down air....thanks for the advice.

This morning he's still alive and acting normal, but it's day 6 and eyes are still closed and he's still the EXACT SAME SIZE as he was when born! I don't think this is going to end well but I'm still stuck doing everything I possibly can since he's still alive and active. So stressful! I'm obsessively checking the crop and his temperature in the box to be sure he's in the optimal conditions....just doesn't seem to be helping him anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Gee, I don't know what the problem is. I raised 2 babies about 1 and 2 days old, and used an eye dropper to feed them, and they grew faster than that. How long is it taking for the food to pass through them? I worked and fed mine 3 or 4 times a day and they did well.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Gee, I don't know what the problem is. I raised 2 babies about 1 and 2 days old, and used an eye dropper to feed them, and they grew faster than that. How long is it taking for the food to pass through them? I worked and fed mine 3 or 4 times a day and they did well.


I agree. I've raised alot of babies, all ages even from day 1. They do grow at a slower rate, but you should notice some growth and eye's should be open. He's still alive, so he's getting nourishment.
I would hang in there Sugarbee, make sure he's warm, eating and pooping. You don't have the formula too thin do you? He could possibly be slow due to the fact that he never got 'pigeon milk' from the parents. That happen to my 2 'Bucket Babies' http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/omg-bucket-babies-46970.html?highlight=bucket+babies
They seemed to be tiny forever, but they blossomed and survived.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Jay3, I'm feeding every 4 to 5 hours at this point, judging off of when the crop feels empty or almost empty. The day there was air trapped in the crop I was feeding tiny tiny amounts about every 2 hours because that's about all that would fit in there along with the air. So I've basically just been going off of crop versus just feeding a few times a day. I am getting up at night to feed as well. 

MsFreebird, yes, my fiance keeps telling me they stay small a long time but I'm like, there is NO WAY this is normal! Same size today, day 7, eyes still closed. However, today I can see little black spots on the crop and on its left and right sides about 3/4 of the way back on its body which I'm assuming may be where feathers will hopefully grow out of? I think I will try a thicker formula as you're referencing. I'll have to look at the back of the package again. The first day was very thin, then the 2nd day to today I have been doing a 1 part formula to 2 parts water ratio as it says on the back (it says 1 part formula to 2-3 parts water). It's encouraging to hear of your "bucket babies." I'm getting frustrated but holding on because he's so active and eating well still. I also make a little half bird half kissing sound I'll call it, lol, 6 times when I'm around him or going to feed. I feel like since he's all alone maybe it'll help him feel like something consistent is taking care of him and visiting him. He seems to start "peeping" when I do it most of the time so I feel like we're bonding!  

He's still very active, keeping him very warm and he is pooping like crazy yesterday and today! Lol


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> Gee, I don't know what the problem is.**** I raised 2 babies about 1 and 2 days old, and used an eye dropper to feed them, and they grew faster than that.





Sugarbee said:


> *MI was given a pigeon hatchling found in a carwash before hatched.** Egg was cracked. The person hatched it themselves, and I think too early on top of that*.


*Jay3, You have to remember this baby was not a newly hatched baby, it was a preemature hatched forceably by human, so circumstances are not the same.*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Skyeking, that's exactly right. My fiance keeps saying the same thing because he raised a few from a couple days old. But they hatched themselves. when I look up reasons for no to slow growth, it does say "weak hatching" as one reason. I'm really worried that it was not able to develop its muscles enough to be able to grow or survive. I hear hatching themselves is also how their lungs and heart get strong. The first 2 days it didn't even make a peep. Now it peeps a LOT! lol I'm worried this will all lead to a less than happy ending


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sugarbee said:


> Skyeking, that's exactly right. My fiance keeps saying the same thing because he raised a few from a couple days old. But they hatched themselves. when I look up reasons for no to slow growth, it does say "weak hatching" as one reason. I'm really worried that it was not able to develop its muscles enough to be able to grow or survive. I hear hatching themselves is also how their lungs and heart get strong. The first 2 days it didn't even make a peep. Now it peeps a LOT! lol I'm worried this will all lead to a less than happy ending


*You are doing the best that you can, and the fact that it is peeping alot and has also started pooping more is a good sign. Just continue your wonderful care, you may or may not lose him, that has nothing to do with your care but everything to do with the circumstances it was born in. Take one step at a time, and don't worry about muscle growth at this point of time.*


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The fact that it is still alive and pooping is immense , it will catch up at some point if you keep it up, unless it is just not able thrive for unknown reasons. They do grow slower on formula, and seeing him everyday you might not see small improvements.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He is pooping more and peeping when he hears you. That's a great sign. Good job!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Skyeking said:


> *Jay3, You have to remember this baby was not a newly hatched baby, it was a preemature hatched forceably by human, so circumstances are not the same.*


Oh......I missed that part!



Skyeking said:


> *You are doing the best that you can, and the fact that it is peeping alot and has also started pooping more is a good sign. Just continue your wonderful care, you may or may not lose him, that has nothing to do with your care but everything to do with the circumstances it was born in. Take one step at a time, and don't worry about muscle growth at this point of time.*





spirit wings said:


> The fact that it is still alive and pooping is immense , it will catch up at some point if you keep it up, unless it is just not able thrive for unknown reasons. They do grow slower on formula, and seeing him everyday you might not see small improvements.


As Skyeking and spirit wings said.........if he's active and pooping, he's getting nourishment. He's just going to take a little longer to develop. Just keep on doing what your doing


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks everybody! Well I think I have good news to report. Harry, as my daughter named him (assumin it's a he because his outer toes r different lengths), has had his first little growth spurt! Originally 2 1/2", he is now just over 3"!!!! He is pooping like crazy, and today has a lot more black or dark areas of skin, his bottom beak part looks a little longer and different, and his feet are getting a little dark instead of everything just being pink. 

He seems to b shaking a lot despite being warm enough, and he's not in a drafty area either.

Does everyone use a heating pad under them instead of a lamp btw? Or when do u switch to a heating pad?

Thanks! U guys have all been so helpful


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think the heating pad keeps them warm enough but most new ones go off after a certain time period, lamps can dehydrate the skin..but it has worked so far, making the formula a bit thin with water can add extra H20 if he needs it from using the lamp. using a heating pad also lets one cover the baby with a towl loosely which helps keep in heat as you know by now is important for digestion.. what a great job of it you are doing! there may be a few bumps along the way but don't panic as long as he is eating and pooping all is good.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks Spirit Wings.....I'm trying! 

I think I will try to get a hold of a heating pad in the next couple days. Sounds like a better and easier idea. It's hard to keep an exact temp with the lamp somehow. I'm constantly having to move it closer and farther from the bird. 

Fingers crossed this little one keeps growing! I'm excited to see if maybe tomorrow I will get even more growth out of the little guy! Eyes still closed though....day 8!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Amazon has one for under $17. And it doesn't have the automatic shut off!. And they ship very fast normally.
http://www.amazon.com/Sunbeam-732-5...&keywords=electric+heating+pads+for+back+pain


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks Jay3!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Sugarbee,
Thanks for all your hard work taking care of this little dude. He is so lucky to have been placed in your care! All the best and keep us posted!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I only use heating pads. But as Jay3 mentioned, Don't get one with an 'automatic shutoff'. And you just keep it set on LOW. Good job


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have used the reptile heating elements also, and they worked fine. But a heating pad would be less expensive.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sugarbee said:


> Thanks everybody! Well I think I have good news to report. Harry, as my daughter named him (assumin it's a he because his outer toes r different lengths), has had his first little growth spurt! Originally 2 1/2", he is now just over 3"!!!! He is pooping like crazy, and today has a lot more black or dark areas of skin, his bottom beak part looks a little longer and different, and his feet are getting a little dark instead of everything just being pink.
> 
> He seems to b shaking a lot despite being warm enough, and he's not in a drafty area either.
> 
> ...


*I am happy to hear he is pooping like crazy That is certainly good news. Not sure why he is shaking.

Yes, heating pads are always best, just make sure to put a towel between the baby and the pad.*


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Sugarbee said:


> ...............He seems to b shaking a lot despite being warm enough, and he's not in a drafty area either.................


Is the shaking continuous, or just when you are around/near ?
Most young birds do "shake" or twitch their wings a lot when they recognise what their food supply is... ie you


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Is the shaking continuous, or just when you are around/near ?
> Most young birds do "shake" or twitch their wings a lot when they recognise what their food supply is... ie you



This is what I was thinking he was doing.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks Miss Sassypants! Lol And love your name....I thought that name was made for my 4 year old! Lol 

Well he seems to be shaking with or without me around. I'll peak in from a distance and he's doing it, not all the time though. But for longer periods of time, not just a few mins. He's shaking today too! But he had a lot of restful time today as well. And call me psychic, but this morning I woke up and thought, Harry's going to open his eyes today, then I thought.....what am I, nuts? lol But he DID!!!!They are still little slits at this point, but they are both opening FINALLY And he's definitely grown about another 1/2" too! And filling out width wise, getting darker, and he's all beak! I'll try to take pics in the next couple days and post an updated pic! Now I'm freaking out about the shaking, but trying to just think he's obviously thriving as much as he possibly can under the circumstances. It's up to the Bird Gods now I suppose

Thanks for everyone staying on this thread and I hope you continue....who knows what will come up next that I'll have no idea how to deal with! Lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm looking forward to the pics.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*Update*

Well it's been a couple days since I posted and the little bird is still alive and acting normal. He had that little growth spurt and now there's been nothing again. So he's13 days old and is still just over 3" long. No actual feathers coming in, just the darkening of skin in places where usually it's dark a couple days after they're born. He is taking about 4ml's of food at a time, every 4 to 5 hours now instead of like 2mls (but I was feeding more frequently in the first several days). Still wondering if he can seriously make it? I don't see how he could be this tiny and be okay.....we'll see.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*Day 13*



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Also not sure if I should be feeding plain water now or how much? I'm treating him as if he's only around a week old because his eyes just opened about 3 days ago and he was hatched early. His poop looks wet enough, so I'm assuming he's hydrated enough with the Kaytee baby bird formula mixed with water.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*OMG! The EYES  are open. How adorable.

No need for extra water, he is getting enough, if his poop is runny you can thicken the formula a little.

This is such a special little guy, I know it is hard not to get attached, it is still "iffy" for him but every day he is alive, there is more hope.

Continue your good work, and thank you for the update.



*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He's adorable. Are you feeding less often because it takes the crop more time to empty?


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you Skyeking!  Yes, it is hard. I'll hold him on my chest and he totally calms right down....definitely attached, whether he makes it or not! 

And yes, feeding less often because I'm able to get in a couple more ml's than I was in the beginning, so the crop is taking longer to empty.


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## Beakybird (Mar 20, 2013)

Hi Sugarbee,
You are doing a fantastic job with this little one - I am only new on this site and the info really helped with my little rescued baby pigeon.... I empathise with all you are doing to help your little boy and I wish you all the best... I'll keep checking in to find out how yourself and your bub are getting on...
Karen & Beaky


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

What a CUTIE!!
No extra water as Skyeking said, just formula. You won't give water for a couple weeks, when he starts eating solid food.
Your doing a great job, he looks great. As long as he's developing, active, eating and pooping, your in the green 
At this age, they still just sit in their nest, bob their head alot, and sleep between meals. Keep him in a position with his feet under him, so when he does start to try and walk, he doesn't get 'splay legs'.
Your going to have a friend for life!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You're doing a good job. He's coming along. Make sure you are feeding enough which will help him to grow.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*If the crop is slowing down in emptying, you can put a tiny little drop of organic apple cider in the formula to get better digesting and get proper PH for gut flora.*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Also mixing baby applesauce in with the food helps to get the crop moving better.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> Also mixing baby applesauce in with the food helps to get the crop moving better.


*Yes, the kind with no added sugar*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Beakybird, welcome! this was my first time on the site, and my first experience with pigeons as well! I'm glad this could help you. How is your little pigeon doing? this has definitely helped me out with my little guy! 

Thanks for all the support and great tips guys! Yes, I will try the applesauce if it keeps taking him longer to digest. I figured it was just because he was taking in more formula but I'll keep an eye on it. He got more air in his crop yesterday. It's better today but not totally gone. Massaging doesn't seem to do it, but eventually he gets it out of there on his own somehow. Idk if it's normal but he eats like opening and shutting his beak several times, then leaving his beak open for an extended period of time. I think that's when he's gulping the air down. And I'm making sure that he has extra food in the syringe (that he doesn't even finish) just so I know that there's always food for him to gulp, and he won't be left with just air. But idk why he keeps his beak open like that! I also take him away from the syringe a couple times and make sure his nostrils are clear and he can breathe well so I don't think that's the issue either. But the air in the crop thing really freaks me out plus affects how much I can allow him to eat when it happens (I have to feed him less more frequently in those instances). 

He is doing a good job of staying with his feet under him. Every once in a while I look at him and he's fallen on his back and is sound asleep, not having been able to get off. then I flip him over but it's a lot less frequent than it was in the first week.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Sugarbee said:


> Beakybird, welcome! this was my first time on the site, and my first experience with pigeons as well! I'm glad this could help you. How is your little pigeon doing? this has definitely helped me out with my little guy!
> 
> Thanks for all the support and great tips guys! Yes, I will try the applesauce if it keeps taking him longer to digest. I figured it was just because he was taking in more formula but I'll keep an eye on it. He got more air in his crop yesterday. It's better today but not totally gone. Massaging doesn't seem to do it, but eventually he gets it out of there on his own somehow. Idk if it's normal but he eats like opening and shutting his beak several times, then leaving his beak open for an extended period of time. I think that's when he's gulping the air down. And I'm making sure that he has extra food in the syringe (that he doesn't even finish) just so I know that there's always food for him to gulp, and he won't be left with just air. But idk why he keeps his beak open like that!* I also take him away from the syringe a couple times and make sure his nostrils are clear and he can breathe well *so I don't think that's the issue either. But the air in the crop thing really freaks me out plus affects how much I can allow him to eat when it happens (I have to feed him less more frequently in those instances).


I think that's probably when he's getting the air.
I don't take the bottle away from my babies when their feeding, I let them pull out on their own. Never had an air problem doing it that way.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Good to know! I'll let mine feed completely before removing the bottle, although he will NOT stop eating on his own. He would probably explode before he'd stop eating! Lol Looks the same today although someone who hadn't seen him in a few days said they could tell he was a little bigger so I guess that's good!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Sugarbee... more pictures please!

Keep up the good job!


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

I'll try to get more tomorrow! He really looks exactly the same as the last pic though unfortunately He had that one growth spurt and then nothing. Shouldn't he have like almost all his feathers now? And be almost full grown?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sugarbee said:


> I'll try to get more tomorrow! He really looks exactly the same as the last pic though unfortunately He had that one growth spurt and then nothing. Shouldn't he have like almost all his feathers now? And be almost full grown?


*If he was forced hatched April 25th and he probably still had a day or two of incubation, that would make him about 13 to 14 days old. He is still very young and pigeons aren't fully grown until they are around 30 days old, that is when they are fully feathered, so all is okay.*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Well that makes me feel better. Still fits in the palm of my little hand and only has his down. But he seems a little older in his actions. Trying to prean (or ithch himself, idk which) his chest some and look around more. He falls on his back a LOT and can't get back on his feet.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

not saying he is normal, but handfed babies do lag behind more than parent fed babies..


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

how is this youngin doing? I hope all is well.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

He's still hangin' in there! Still just down and no sign of feathers, but he does seem a tiny bit bigger and he's getting more "normal" as far as his behavior goes and just seeming older I guess. He definitely is getting the air in the crop when he falls over and is lying on his back/side, which he does frequently. I can't always be watching him, although I've been taking him to work everyday, and to family gatherings, etc. And my errands have been very short and sweet or I have someone to pigeonsit for a couple hours. lol He's quite the little traveler!  I'm getting married next Sunday and I can't believe that I will somehow be sneaking him in the hotel and bringing him to the wedding venue with me!!!!! There will be no one else to take care of him because we'll all be there! Lol Maybe I should get him a bow tie? 

Happy Mother's Day to all of you out there


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

* I'm glad to hear he is still thriving. Hope he gets some feathers too.

Happy Mother's Day to you too! You are an outstanding pigeon mama! Thank you for taking the little fellow with you, he is quite the little traveler! It is nice that he is still so portable and you can take him everywhere, even though he is still so tiny. 

Thank you for the update. Keep them coming.*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you yes, I'm afraid he's going to think he's a child or a dog if he ever grows up! Lol


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

When he grows up, he will think you are his partner 
I still don't understand why he's falling on his back? Is there a video posted with him doing that?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sugarbee said:


> Thank you yes, I'm afraid he's going to think he's a child or a dog if he ever grows up! Lol


*They adapt wonderfully to human conditions. We had such a pet bird that was interested in everything we did. They do grow up and become a little independent LOL.Yes, they get spoiled too. *


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

No, I don't have any vidoes of him falling over. I can't get videos off my camera.....long story! It's just that he's really not steady on his feet so he tries to walk and tumbles over, or often after I feed him he still is going crazy wanting food (even though he is plenty filled!) and he'll stand up and stretch out and start pecking at the little stuffed bird I have in there with him, and he just isn't good enough on his feet and when he stretches out he ends up going over instead of just relaxing back down on his feet. 

He is 3 weeks today and his little wings have sprouted the little piney feather things (black)!!! they're not poking through anywhere else yet, but at least they're starting somewhere And his umbilical cord nub fell off a couple days ago finally too. 

He is still pretty tiny but his crop seems to be a lot bigger than it was before. I'm able to get about 6 mls in at a time of the Kaytee formula now. 

I think if he gets a little bigger and really takes off, we're going to GET him a partner! I feel bad he's all alone. I know they're not meant to be so I guess we'll be finding Harry a girlfriend in the near future if all goes well

Can you ever let a handfed bird like this fly free? I'm thinking we're going to HAVE to build an enclosure for him, but does anyone have an experience where they released a handfed baby? I think he'll lack his street smarts after being alone and so adapted to people, etc. My fiance thinks we're going to build him a home he can come and go from but I don't think we should.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*There is a way of releasing a young bird into a flock of healthy thriving feral pigeons, but it is best to release them together with other rehabilitated youngsters as a group. I have a release criteria thread available on this site you can read.

At this point I wouldn't worry about it, so many variables and he still has some hurdles to cross. *


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I know it is important not to over feed, but make sure you are not under feeding either.. perhaps post a picture of him after you feed him.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Okay, I'll try to get a picture. I'm actually able to hold him up to a light and see through the crop so I can see how filled it is. lol I've been super busy but I'll try to get a pic up soon!


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Skyeking, I'll definitely have to read that! If he makes it I know we want to keep him anyway. The point was to have him as a pet and I'll be so attached if it works out well it probably wouldn't be an option anyway


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Sugarbee... CONGRATULATIONS on your upcoming wedding!! how lucky is the little fella being the bride's adopted baby (and wearing a bowtie too lol). He is such a pampered little cutie.

Harry is a cute name for a pigeon too.

I hope you won't release him. Pigeons make AWESOME pets. They really do. Trust me, your love for him will only get stronger, and once it's time to let him go... you won't be able too! That's what happened to me... almost 3 years later, my pigeon still lives with me in my bedroom (SORRY, it's HER bedroom, I'm just the extra, lol)

I look forward to seeing more updates and adventures of you and Harry together. All the best for the wedding day - show us pics!!! Hehe..


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*Harry updates.....3 weeks*

http://imageshack.us/a/img600/8097/dsc3249x.jpg

Dirty after feeding, hadn't cleaned him yet but he was in good form for pics so I grabbed my camera first!  He's over 3 weeks now!!! 

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/1039/dsc3256001.jpg

You can see here how full he is. Funny how holding him up to the light or with the camera flash you can actually SEE the food through the crop.

http://imageshack.us/a/img259/4411/dsc3254s.jpg

this is one way he falls.....very top heavy! He falls like this or to the side. He also seems to be keeping his legs pretty far out to his sides when he tries to walk, although he's JUST starting to try to walk so maybe this completely unbalanced, top heavy wide-footed drawl is normal when they're learning? lol

He's acting a lot more like a normal bird at least. I can tell he's seeing well now and he reacts to me quickly. When I was trying to get pictures of him sideways I kept turning the towel he was on to the side and he'd turn himself so he was facing me! Lol 

In the pic where he's falling you can see a little how he's getting the little piney feathers starting to come out of his wings (and also on his crop although you can't tell in pics)


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

sorry, I meant to post pics and not links....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think it looks good. what a funny little bird...lol..


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Oh, he is just adorable, I sure pray he makes it!

Have you tried some liquid cal mag in his formula? I am wondering if that will help support him with walking.

Thank you for sharing the pics.
*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

yes, he's really something! lol Thanks for the feedback guys Always nice for a mom to hear praises on her baby....even if it IS a pigeon! Lol 

I haven't heard of the cal mag....is this calcium/magnesium? Just a guess....I'm new to all this so not sure what you're referring to. I have not tried anything with him other than the Kaytee formula mix.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Sugarbee said:


> yes, he's really something! lol Thanks for the feedback guys Always nice for a mom to hear praises on her baby....even if it IS a pigeon! Lol
> 
> I haven't heard of the cal mag....is this calcium/magnesium? Just a guess....I'm new to all this so not sure what you're referring to. I have not tried anything with him other than the Kaytee formula mix.


Kaytee formula has all vits and nutrients in it. I wouldn't give anything else.
When he starts eating seeds then it's different. Right now you are doing an amazing job.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks Dima


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Yes, that is calcium magnesium, this little guy needs an extra boost since he is a premature baby and not growing as well. You can get coral calcium magnesium powder and add that to the formula. I would add extra probiotics too. *


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

OMG! What a little doll!
This is when I'd be very careful about his legs. If they can't support their own weight and try to walk, that's when 'splay leg' can start.
What I do is......When feeding, I position him just like your first picture (sideways to me) with his feet and legs straight under him. I make him stand to reach the bottle, while he is feeding (in a standing position) I use my free hand to help him keep his legs together. This will strengthen his legs, with your support.
Great job with your baby..........he's adorable!! 
Also, best wishes on your wedding day


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Skyeking, Okay, I'll have to think about it. I'm nervous I would have no idea the right dosage or how much to give this tiny guy.

MsFreeBird, thanks He is a cutie in his own little way He DOES stand to reach the food....wings out and all! Lol BUT he stands with his legs out the majority of the time. When he's resting he has his legs under him, but when he's trying to walk or balance he has his legs out to the sides, especially the right one. He's almost always on his side when I look at him, and I have to flip him over. Seems like his right leg always wants to be out stretched too much and it pushes him over. And then I think his crop throws him off balance too, especially when he's been fed. he seems to do better out of the box. I don't know what the difference is because it's a flat surface in the box and out. But I think he just wants to look around and stuff when he's out, so I'm going to start taking him out and just letting him sit on a towel on the floor more often throughout the day and see if it helps. I can correct his legs this way too and he seems to keep them as I put them better out of the box too. I have no idea why it would be any different. 

Someone told me I may end up with a pigeon wheelchair! Lol That would be cute, lol, but not preferable. I want him to thrive eventually!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The label on the Kaytee tells you not to give any additional additives. And it already contains calcium. I wouldn't worry about giving him additional supplements right now.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Sugarbee said:


> Skyeking, Okay, I'll have to think about it. I'm nervous I would have no idea the right dosage or how much to give this tiny guy.
> 
> MsFreeBird, thanks He is a cutie in his own little way He DOES stand to reach the food....wings out and all! Lol *BUT he stands with his legs out the majority of the time*. When he's resting he has his legs under him, but when he's trying to walk or balance he has his legs out to the sides, especially the right one. He's almost always on his side when I look at him, and I have to flip him over. Seems like his right leg always wants to be out stretched too much and it pushes him over. And then I think his crop throws him off balance too, especially when he's been fed. he seems to do better out of the box. I don't know what the difference is because it's a flat surface in the box and out. But I think he just wants to look around and stuff when he's out, so I'm going to start taking him out and just letting him sit on a towel on the floor more often throughout the day and see if it helps. I can correct his legs this way too and he seems to keep them as I put them better out of the box too. I have no idea why it would be any different.
> 
> Someone told me I may end up with a pigeon wheelchair! Lol That would be cute, lol, but not preferable. I want him to thrive eventually!


When his legs are spread out, that's when you need to support him and keep his legs 'straight under him'. His bones are fragile and growing, and if the legs keep spreading out......there going to grow that way. I know its hard because they want to toddle around and explore at this age.


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## Beakybird (Mar 20, 2013)

All the very best for your wedding day!

Your little baby, Harry, is looking like he is a little fighter! My partner and I (plus Beaksy) are sending you and Harry all the best wishes from Sydney - that he keeps getting stronger, bigger and healthier!
Xx


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sugarbee said:


> Skyeking, Okay, I'll have to think about it. I'm nervous I would have no idea the right dosage or how much to give this tiny guy.



*If you feel uncomfortable about it, I would seek out holistic avian vet that acutally knows pigeons that could guide you. They would definitely make sure this very special baby is getting the right supportive care/nutrition, because of his growth and development.*


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*New Issue*

Well I've noticed a new issue that either has not always been an issue, or that I cannot believe I didn't notice before. I think he only has use of his inside and back toes. The outside and middle toes on both feet seem completely useless. Like, I don't think he has any feeling or movement in them, and then middle toes are now curved as well. He cannot stabilize himself it seems side to side, (I think because he can't move or use these toes), so he is only working with being able to try and balance forward and back on the most inside toe and back toe  This is horrible considering I don't know how a bird could ever walk okay with this issue! I'm going to start working with him (pigeon physical therapy! lol) just standing on the ground (I think I'd mentioned that previously) because he tries harder to walk when he's not in the box. But I really don't see how this could turn out okay with feet like this

Has anyone ever seen this? Wondering if it's just part of what didn't develop right from being hatched early/not on his own.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe he just needs to be outside the box more where he can try to walk and strengthen the toes.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I agree that he needs to be gently pushed into standing for a few minutes at a time and be given time to be outside of his box. Once he gets comfortable and used to standing well he can be guided to start taking steps.

I had two babies who would not get up and walk, they had no muscle tone in their legs, took them outside into a sunny porch and started their therapy and increased their calcium intake and got them moving, it took time but it sure paid off. *


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

Wow, that's great to hear from you guys!  He definitely has great muscle tone in his legs, and does manage to move around the box, but definitely tries to balance more when he's outside the box so I'll do that and let you guys know how it goes!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The sunny porch sounds like a good idea. They need the sunshine, and they do also seem to perk up more in a sunny nice environment.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

I'll try it outside this morning before we leave to sneak him into the bed and breakfast with us! Lol Should be interesting.....I never envisioned having a pigeon at my wedding....maybe flying doves ,lol, but not a scraggley little pigeon! lol I'll post a pic of him at the wedding (wedding's tomorrow!) lol So funny!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sugarbee said:


> I'll try it outside this morning before we leave to sneak him into the bed and breakfast with us! Lol Should be interesting.....I never envisioned having a pigeon at my wedding....maybe flying doves ,lol, but not a scraggley little pigeon! lol I'll post a pic of him at the wedding (wedding's tomorrow!) lol So funny!


*That has got to be the most unusual guest EVER at a wedding because of his circumstances. But what a precious little one he is, looking forward to pics and I pray he continues to thrive and improve each day. *


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

he could of been your little ring bearer...lol.. I would not worry about the toes too much, with him being behind in development the toes for young babies are pretty pliable and rubbery..the toes dont seem to get stronger until they have some feathers pretty much coverd on their body and are moving around a bit more. letting him reach for feedings can help him excersize what he does have, Im sure he will catch up at some point.


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

good to know about the toes! Harry, my husband and I made it home from the wedding in one piece! He had a mini vacation overnight in Napa, CA lol, and then he will have a sleepover next weekend with his grandma (my mom), lol when we go on our honeymoon for a few days next weekend! lol He did fine and I had the photographer take pics of me holding him! Lol I'll post as soon as I get my pictures back. Today I set him on the patio, as suggested, and he did very well. He fell over several times...my hands were there to break his fall. But he did better than ever on his feet out there so I will do that several times a day everyday and see if he improves. thanks for the continued support! This little guy has a lot of people in his corner


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good for him! Glad he's doing well. Can hardly wait to see the pictures. LOL.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Looking forward to see his wedding pictures!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I'm glad he enjoyed his patio outing and looking forward to pictures as well!*


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## STEPHANIEBEAUDOIN (Aug 20, 2013)

Any updates on Harry? How is he?


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## Sugarbee (Apr 25, 2013)

*Harry Update*

Sorry I never wrote back. Then I forgot my login info. or I would've responded to your message sooner! Sorry! 

Harry died We got married, and a week later went on our honeymoon. When we got back (he was being babysat) he seemed quickly like maybe he was getting an infection. He was acting okay, but his poop smelled really, really bad. I was really worried about him, and then a couple mornings later I did his feeding exactly as I always do, and he sucked the food down the wrong way. Immediately I knew that's what happened because his crop started filling with air and he was putting his head back with his mouth wide open. I was freaking out and within literally 5 seconds he was gone. It was soooooo terrible! I was in love with that little guy, and he actually had grown some in size and feathers between the time we left and came back from our honeymoon, which was only about 4 days. I was really sad, but in a way I felt like I'm pretty sure he was getting an infection and I was very worried about the death he would have from that. At least this was very, very quick and he didn't suffer over a period of days or hours. Still terrible! My daughter and I made a special little box for him and burried him in the backyard, and got a little headstone type thing for him. lol He was a very interesting experience to have and a really happy memory I'll hold forever! Thanks for asking. So sorry I haven't updated.


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## STEPHANIEBEAUDOIN (Aug 20, 2013)

Today my 8 day old pigeon passed away. He took a few drops of water....he licked the dropper...and about 10 min later....he passed away. I miss him so much. My little baby is gone. He hadnt gained any weight since day 2. Maybe it was for the best. He never had pigeon milk because he hatched without a mother.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I'm so sorry, Sugarbee, and when we didn't hear anything I pretty much figured something was up. I know that had to be very hard for you to lose him, but thank you for letting us know. *


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry you lost him.


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