# Steven van Breemen on In-Breeding



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Steven van Breemen is a fancier for whom I have followed for many years. I like his views on in-breeding because, unlike some of the academic types who have published articles about in-breeding, Mr. Breemen has actually bred some very fantastic pigeons, and has thus put theory into practice. 


http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Voorpagina:My_View_on_inbreeding

My View on inbreeding
Usually my view does not agree with what I read in the pigeon magazines about inbreeding. You cannot ground inbreeding with pigeons on the rules according tot Mendel. The Mendelrules exactly fit on those qualities which lean on a qualitative heritable basis. With these tools we can breed beautiful Olympiad standard pigeons, however no first prize winners or ace pigeons. 

The racing qualities with pigeons, race horses etc are based in the first place on the quantitative heridity. The discoveries of Gregor Mendel refer to the color and the size of the pea, but don’t refer to the yield per acre. This last remark too counts for pigeons. 

Inbreeding is not a schedule but a large conception. Inbreeding is a very special musical instrument out of wich different players can get many different tones. Let me try to explain the problem. 

The best way to make use of inbreeding is when we do inbreeding on a super breeder. In this case we have the best chance of success. If you own a super breeder I would advise you to mate him or her against one of the best children. If the pigeon in question produces youngsters that actually have proven to be good racers and breeders, we have a great chance for success. The why I would like to explain further. 

When we do inbreeding on a super racer we have same chances, but not so many as when we do inbreeding on a super breeder. The pigeons quality is determined by a combined action of several factors. These factors can lead to different combinations. For instance this pigeon has a constant flying condition and another one has anuncertain flying condition. Because the various qualities are not being inherited according to a certain pattern, not all super racers have the same chances to pass on their specific qualities to their children. I will try to eplain why.

Family breeding with inbreeding

This is quite different to other methods. When a loft obtains the definition "strain", the owners mostly try to breed their pigeons in relationship with the intention to breed pigeons for racing and for breeding. In this case the fancier makes use of inbreeding, but not in close relationship in order to keep vitality in the strain, so that the qualities of the winners stay for the next generations. This is not easy. The next generations often become slower. The top breeders try to prevent this by weIl planned cross breeding. 

However there are fanciers who evidently do not want to bring new blood into the own strain. How do they succeed doing this? 

After several generations without any fresh blood brought into the strain, the pigeons of course will bear more and more valuable genes from the basic breeding pigeons. The same happens when we mate during several generations the related pigeons with eachother. Distant inbreeding during several generations has about the same effect as close inbred in a few generations. What I want to explain is this: vitality and racing qualities become inferior. That´s why these fanciers often raise a great number of youngsters of which they select the pigeons with the best vitality and the rest is being sold. They keep the best pigeons for themselves. That is true. But because they keep out of each generation the pigeons with the best vitality, they keep those pigeons where the inbred was not clearly noticeable. So they are more or less "heterozygot" than most genes of the own strain, however they seem to be bred the same way as the others: the pedigree shows a higher concentration of the wanted genes that are really present. When the fancier owns only a small population he has one handicap more: he is not able to make the most ideal seeming combinations because the partners are often related. The fancier is obliged to make less ideal matings. 

Inbreeding to get later better cross breeding results

In the history of the hybridisation in animal breeding is known that before the cross breeding the first thing to do is inbred both partners in order to get better results. I do not believe this method will be very popular among pigeons fanciers. One remark I must make here: this method is excellent, I can show the results, but inbreeding first is no guarantee for the best mating results. A good result means that from both partners those genes lead in special combinations to an extraordinary result. However if these genes are not present in both partners it is of no use to do inbreeding first. But when two strains always give excellent results in cross breeding, than it is wise to inbred both partners first. In this way we preserve those genes in both the populations which we need most to get the excellent results. In such a case it is clear we should make use of close inbreeding without looking at the racing results of the next generation. Their crossbred youngsters will race lateron much better! 

Is it possible to breed pigeons suitable only for breeding? It seams perhaps strange but it is possible! These pigeons do not have to be very vital; it is totally wrong to use their racing results as a touchstone for the selection. In case of these pigeons this is impossible, but when we cross breed them with birds from another strain we get youngsters with extra qualities and vitality. Let me teIl you in short about my own breeding method. 

The basic breeder of my loft is the “Old Klaren ´46” from De Smet-Matthijs. Al most twentyfive years ago I started to inbreed his blood by mating his grandchildren among eachother. I took special care that no inbreed was done at the same time on another pigeon in the same mating. So I was sure to do inbreeding only straight on the Old Klaren. Following the same principle I mated the grand-grandchildren and the next Klaren-inbred generation among eachother. By doing so I bred pigeons with only highly concentrated genes of the super breeder the Old Klaren ´46! 

With these super inbred pigeons I started to make crossbreeding combinations to prove my hypothesis: do inbreeding first on a super breeder and then do the right crossbreeding. The crossbreeding results with pigeons out of the Janssen strain were the best: lots of first prize winners, National Ace pigeons and first national winners were born. The best individual result was in the big Open National Orleans race of 1989. The 540 kilometers were difficult: a 4 days stay in the basket and then towards home in a strong head wind. From the 3000 basketed birds in my region 113 were mine; they won the first 11 positions and together 36 positions within the first 75. 

At this moment I possess several excellent breeders. What method do I use to preserve their qualities for the future? 

When we want to preserve excellent genetic material there is only one solution: very close inbreeding! So father against daughter, mother against son and sometimes during two generations! Combinations like nephew against niece are most of the times not strong enough to preserve the wanted genes as we would like. Something else that is important to remember: inbreeding also shows the shortcomings. 

Character, intelligence and orientation ability are characteristics which are influenced by the combined efforts of hundreds of genes. Inbreeding and crossbreeding have no negative influence on them. From generation to generation the value of these characteristics always is the average of what both parents contributed. So the best breeders are those who own these characteristics in a strong way. And we can be certain they pass on these characteristics to their youngsters. When these characteristics in a following generation meet vitality we get first class racers again! 

Vitality and signs to come into form inherit quite different. These characteristics are influenced by only a few genes and that´s why parents and children often are different. Inbreeding here has a negative influence. 

But a crossbreeding here gives clearly visible results and sometimes we breed a superracer from two heavily inbred parents who both have vitality problems. 

So a superracer who was super because of his vitality and signs to come into form has great problems to pass these characteristics on to his youngsters. Why? Because his prominent characteristics pass on quite different than those from pigeons who became a champion because of their prominent characteristics character and intelligence! 

This conclusion proves my hypothesis. So you will have understood now that an excellent pigeon is excellent because of one or two superior characteristics. Concerning these characteristics we now know that there are two quite different groups. One group passes on quite good the excellent qualities and the other group doesn´t. So between a good and a good pigeon there is a world of difference! 

What you have to do now is to study and to try to understand about the various characteristics of a pigeon. And when you one time can tell the difference, you will be able to make good use of my proven hypothesis. It´s a long way you have to go, but on the end of the road you find yourself an expert who can tell the difference between pigeons and knows how to breed racers and how to preserve good qualities. 

What I wanted to achieve by this article is that you think a little bit different about our beautifull hobby and to put the interested fanciers on a new and usefull track in modern pigeon breeding. 

Steven van Breemen


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Hey Warren, just curious if you knew whether or not actual genetic tests have been performed on racing pigeons in order to identify which genes code for any characteristics? I'm curious about this for a couple of reasons, and if they are out there I would love to read them in order to see what they have found. These results would be used by fanciers much differently than they would be used by scientists but I believe both groups could learn from the results.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren GLAD you took the time to make this a topic thread. This is where the art of pigeon breeding comes in. AND few develop or try to understand the art of breeding. In the racing hobby.


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## eyespyer (Jul 14, 2008)

Thanks for the post and the link

I will spend some time reading that site

Thanks again


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt Bell said:


> Hey Warren, just curious if you knew whether or not actual genetic tests have been performed on racing pigeons in order to identify which genes code for any characteristics? I'm curious about this for a couple of reasons, and if they are out there I would love to read them in order to see what they have found. These results would be used by fanciers much differently than they would be used by scientists but I believe both groups could learn from the results.


Not unless some University has undertaken such a study. I would think that such research would require a considerable investment to undertake. I suspect since they really don't even know how a pigeon finds it's way home, that it may add layers to the difficulty. 

But, from a practical level, even if such research is underway, or has already been completed. I can't imagine how that information would assist a fancier in breeding better pigeons.

I guess it would, if all one would have to do, is take a blood sample and send it off to a lab. The results come back...and at say six weeks of age, you could cull that young bird, because the gene test shows the bird will never be a winner.....maybe, in time we could save all kinds of money by just doing the gene test, as actually sending birds to the races would no longer be necessary.

I am not serious of course.....because at the end of the day, I sent the bird to the race, if he comes back a 1st Place Winner and does that a few times, I really would not need a gene test, and would not tell me anything at that point, which I don't already know....except perhaps...the odds of the birds passing on such genes to it's offspring ?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Yes Warren, you are correct it would take a considerable investment. I was curious, simply because I believe as SVB does that homing and racing ability is an additive trait (he calls it quantitative I believe), just as is height in humans, and skin color as well in humans. Basically it means that many genes contribute to this ability, and the more genes which you acquire in said bird that beneficially affect this ability, the better that pigeon would be. Then, it would give us all an idea at how difficult it could be to get all the proper genes aligned in what would be considered a 'perfect' specimen. Now, as you state it could be possible in the future to do genetic tests to determine if a pigeon would ever be a winner. That would take a ton of money to test a team of pigeons, and really wouldn't be feasible. Also, it would not eliminate the wild card factor of the fancier in the grand scheme of racing though. I could however, see somebody testing a possible breeding pigeon before agreeing to buy it. Still, I don't think that would be likely. Just some random things banging around in my head.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt Bell said:


> ..... That would *take a ton of money to test a team of pigeons*, and really wouldn't be feasible. Also, it would not eliminate the wild card factor of the fancier in the grand scheme of racing though. I could however, see somebody testing a possible breeding pigeon before agreeing to buy it. Still, I don't think that would be likely. Just some random things banging around in my head.


I get things banging in there at times as well.....just as long as those damn voices don't start up again ! 

Yep, who knows how much such testing would cost. I'm thinking it is thousands of dollars for testing on humans....what could it be for a pigeon ? And if you had to do a team ? Maybe hundreds of thousands of $$$ ??? And then, I'm not sure what it could tell me. We could test human children in preperation for say the Olympics, but would it really tell us which ones will be Gold Metal Winners ?  I have a lot of doubts....


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Wouldn't tell you winners, but it could certainly tell you which ones could not be winners. As you well know it takes more than superb genetics to be a winner in this game. Bad genetics though will make you a loser before you even get to the races.


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## suepahfly (Mar 19, 2010)

Does anyone here, other than me  , have anything from him? Just curious.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

I wonder if gene testing would be cheaper than raising all the birds through training? Obviously for the small folks like me that would be a big NO, but for the big lofts that are selling on pedigree, maybe?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

suepahfly said:


> Does anyone here, other than me  , have anything from him? Just curious.


 I do...somewhere back in the family tree........


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## atvracinjason (Mar 4, 2010)

As genetics go I stand 6 4 can dunk a basketball with these heights, I can jump fairly high allowing me more rebounds, I'm quick on my feet, my sister is much slower in her strides, stands a foot shorter than me, has absolutly no vertical elivation...so genetically I should be the "dominant" basketball player...but the game isn't a scientific calculatin(just like flying). My sister doesn't need to rebound...her shots find the bottom of the net, she doesn't have to outrun me, she can get a shot off quick and make it rain three pointers. Does my rambling make any sense to anyone other than myself?(Well at least I'm convinced). Or is the point that my offspring would be better suited to play ball than my sisters based on my genetics(its more likely I pass my physical traits than my skill sets to my young)


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

atvracinjason said:


> As genetics go I stand 6 4 can dunk a basketball with these heights, I can jump fairly high allowing me more rebounds, I'm quick on my feet, my sister is much slower in her strides, stands a foot shorter than me, has absolutly no vertical elivation...so genetically I should be the "dominant" basketball player...but the game isn't a scientific calculatin(just like flying). My sister doesn't need to rebound...her shots find the bottom of the net, she doesn't have to outrun me, she can get a shot off quick and make it rain three pointers. Does my rambling make any sense to anyone other than myself?(Well at least I'm convinced). Or is the point that my offspring would be better suited to play ball than my sisters based on my genetics(its more likely I pass my physical traits than my skill sets to my young)


 I think I see where you are going with this.....but at 6'4" you are way to short to be Pro material, and I am sure much more then height goes into producing a star player. So, even if some test is perfected which could measure, the Lord only knows...all of the many genes which go into making a racing Champion. Maybe someday, some test might be perfected, but not in my life time. 

In the mean time, how do we breed better pigeons ? IMHO, fanciers jump to inbreeding all too quickly. If you don't possess a really super prepotent breeder, then what is the point ? In-breeding is no magic formula to produce better birds. It IMHO, will only produce close to more of the same, it will not produce some new revolutionary flying machines.

If you are starting with fairly typical pigeons, which win an occasional combine event with fewer then a couple of thousand birds. And you embark on an inbreeding program, all I see that doing, is producing more very typical pigeons.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

Steven van Breemen has many other articles on his site that clear up his positions. He says that his best racers have certain genes in the heterozygous form. His inbreed birds are homozygous and are his best breeders, but not his best birds because he says "vitality" is made up of heterozygous-form genes.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Here is the novice coming through: What makes a "super breeder"? 

Super flyer has distinct characteristics that I have been able to nail down, but super breeder is eluding me.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I would say a bird that produces high numbers of super flyers with several different mates, that allows you to know that it isn't the other mate which is responsible for the young being exceptional. Now, you have an incredibly special pigeon if he can produce super breeders and super flyers.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Pardon the reiteration, but I want to make sure that I "get it". 

A super flyer produces race results. A super breeder is the common sire/dam in a series of super fliers as determined through flyer pedigrees where the dam/sire pairings are not constant. A "OMG I win" breeder is a common sire/dam that produces both super flyers and super breeders as determined through pedigrees were the dam/sire pairings are not constant.

Does that jive with everyone?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Yeah, I think you got it.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Super breeder hens are far and few in between than super breeder cocks. Many pigeon men will tell you that they are more willing to part with good breeding Finding that elusive breeding hen that will produce winners is harder than finding the stud cock. 

I, myself, am still looking for that hen. Either trying to breed her, or buy her. But breeding is more of a challenge!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jaysen said:


> Here is the novice coming through: *What makes a "super breeder"? *
> Super flyer has distinct characteristics that I have been able to nail down, but super breeder is eluding me.


There is no rule book written anywhere which lists the definition of such things, that I know of. But, a "Super Breeder" is exactly what you think a "Super" breeder would be.....a bird which produces race winners out of turn, and those offspring in turn produce winners out of turn. Some people might refer to such as bird as " Pre-potent".....most people I suspect, could go their whole lives and never actually own such a bird. They are rare. I have no idea if they are 1 out of every 50,000 or 1 out of every 100,000, or even more rare. If you manage to get your hands on one, then IMHO, most likely it was by accident. A truely Super Pre-Potent Breeder is the things that dreams are made of. And only a fool, or someone desperate for some cash, or quitting the sport, would part with such a bird. Or the fancier is simply a great master in the sport and has even more of such birds. But, I suspect there are fewer then a dozen such fanciers in the world.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I thought this topic Warren brought up should dusted off and reviewed now that we are pretty much all breeding at this time of year. His article that Warren posted is a right on must read to any breeding racing pigeons as far as I am concerned. There is one characteristic trait that I personally look for but have yet to see mentioned in depth, that is hawk smart. From a pigeon that can wait until the very last instant then roll out of the hawk's grasp, to the birds that are the hardest to catch in a loft, and I am not talking about wild birds. Jim


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jimhalekw said:


> I thought this topic Warren brought up should dusted off and reviewed now that we are pretty much all breeding at this time of year. His article that Warren posted is a right on must read to any breeding racing pigeons as far as I am concerned. There is one characteristic trait that I personally look for but have yet to see mentioned in depth, that is hawk smart. From a pigeon that can wait until the very last instant then roll out of the hawk's grasp, to the birds that are the hardest to catch in a loft, and I am not talking about wild birds. Jim


 I once suggested that being hawk smart could be an inherited trait, and there were detractors and those who attempted to mock my suggestion. I came to the conclusion that the average fancier will never grasp some of these concepts. When I suggested words to that effect, then I was said to be all high and mighty. Most will try to use their very limited experiences upon which to base their theories and ideas.

I am left with thinking that at least here in the USA, the progress towards designing and building a better racing pigeon, is a monumental task, confused in part by some advances in loft design, training and handling and other such things. But, not so much that we are actually producing better pigeons. I am beginning to think that many of the advances which have been made over the decades have come in large part, by pure accident. Too many egos and those motivated purely by financial gain, to really join in some kind of a real collaborative effort. Even attempting to engage in academic type discussions about such subjects, can often degenerate into personality clashes, when one is asked to provide some basis for their thinking or ideas.

I like the author Steven and his ideas, I have shared some notes and ideas of my own with him, and what I like about his writings and theories, is that he has actually produced the results with them. Not like some other authors, who sound impressive on paper, but have never been able to make their own theories work in the real world. That is why I bothered to share Steven's work on these pages.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

This subject gets to the heart of pigeon keeping. THE ART OF BREEDING. And that is the key to a good loft. Alot do not see the part where a winner is not the better breed. AS in show pigeons MANY a great bird is raised from a bird that can not win BUT has that extra something that can breed winners. In racing its consisyance over the winner That makles a better breed. FAr sas hawk smart That is in the birds they just have to develop it And younger birds are more a target until the mature. And all birds can get hit. HAWKS today are much much more plentyful then years past. Warrens key note about vanbreeman Is his goal I had 8 pair of vanbreeman birds Well children off his birds. And they were good birds That was in the late 80s and early 90s They did not get lost very much. And did well Vanbreeman back bred I believe 2, 3 years to ode of 46 and selected his birds Before he started racing them out. NOT many today will set there birds down and work them befor thay jump into the races.. Plus Vanbreeman added extra ventilation to his lofts so more birds could be contained Healthy by air circulation. AND races are what temps 85 degrees and less. Birds must eat and drink befor release. NOT many clubs do this. I like that art of breeding As it challenges the minds eye to direct your goal AND it is not a fast task But a slow idea that you have to notice your breeders And what they can do for you. Putting winner to winner does not mean you get winners. If only a person could see what a race bird carries. So breeding them right is harder. And the prepotent birds Are not easly found And missed often . Good to see this thread crop back up. And Warren you have good goals And strive for good results. We have had our ideas clash from time to time But you are still a good pigeon person.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well Robert, over the last what.... seven years and thousands of posts, it is only natural that some of our ideas would differ from time to time, but on this, I am pretty sure we are on the same page !


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

What I want to be able to test for is if a hen has a strong count of mtDNA in her. That would be the shortcut to finding a proven producer hen.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Kal-El said:


> What I want to be able to test for is if a hen has a strong count of mtDNA in her. That would be the shortcut to finding a proven producer hen.


The only shortcut that I know would be to do your reserch on who has a top producing hen that has consistantly produced excelent birds with several different cocks and then buy that hen.


Other than that there is no shortcut that I know of.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Don't want to blow anyones mind here, but the mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother bird. If you were able to first come up with a way to determine the top racing birds in the world over the past 100 years, then trace a pedigree back I bet you would come up with 5 or less hens which these birds all developed from. You will often times run into a dead end in many animals, if perhaps a female only had sons, none of her mitochondrial DNA will be passed on to future generations. That being said...mitochondrial DNA supposedly has no effect on the genetics of any individual, just a way to trace the mothers lineage (not sure I buy that one, but thats what the science says). Just a PS...scientists have been able to trace human mitochondrial DNA back to 7 'founding' females. Thats right, all of us on this planet can be traced back to 7 original females as of right now, often termed 'The 7 daughters of Eve'.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt Bell said:


> Don't want to blow anyones mind here, but the mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother bird. If you were able to first come up with a way to determine the top racing birds in the world over the past 100 years, then trace a pedigree back *I bet you would come up with 5 or less hens which these birds all developed from*. You will often times run into a dead end in many animals, if perhaps a female only had sons, none of her mitochondrial DNA will be passed on to future generations. That being said...mitochondrial DNA supposedly has no effect on the genetics of any individual, just a way to trace the mothers lineage (not sure I buy that one, but thats what the science says). Just a PS...*scientists have been able to trace human mitochondrial DNA back to 7 'founding' females*. Thats right, all of us on this planet can be traced back to 7 original females as of right now, often termed 'The 7 daughters of Eve'.


 Don't want to throw this thread off topic, but when I hear such things, the question that comes to my mind, is where did these five hens in the case of pigeons, and in the case of humans, where did these seven women come from ? These females would have had both a dam and a sire would they not ? Or are we getting back to the question, which came first, the pigeon or the egg ? 

Although it often makes interesting conversation, we are still faced with how to breed a better, faster homing pigeon. Which with most books and articles on the subject, they might help you pass some sort of class room type test, the writers or lecturers themselves, typically have never really produced exciting results in their own back yard laboratories, ie breeding lofts. 

I do not know enough about the subject of mitochondrial DNA, to be able to speak of it intelligently. To the best of my knowledge, most great pigeon masters were not college professors, and may not have even heard of the term. Bottom line, I don't know how it would help our readers produce better racing pigeons either. I have spent countless hours reading every article I could find over these last several years, and I am not convinced that I am any more equipped to produce better then I was before I started.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well Good hens are not often sold. But not often raced out Either. Do not know about the DNA concept. As as you look at the line development of the begining strains Then down the road and after WW 2 with the new begining many had to take Concepts still hold working the birds in the breeding loft and learning the right selection. But this is a good topic And a goal to strive for.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Warren I am personally convinced that a hawk smart pigeon is a trait that can be passed, I also believe it can be random. All things being equal there are some birds that stay more alert and or wary of anything. That could also describe a bird that acts wild, but that is not what I am talking about. To me a bird that is uncontrollably wild is a bird that should not be bred from as the wild behavior can pass to others in the loft as well as the offspring. I know exactly which two birds are my most hawk smart in my loft, male and female. The female bred a bird that survived in Brooksville Fl out to 400, with the hawks in Florida that says something! The male has breeding record of his young turning out, what I consider hawk smart, over 75% of the time. I have been tempted to mate these two together as I have never bred for hawk smart as my main objective when pairing. Maybe a late hatch this year. Jim


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I believe that hawk smart pigeon is a trait as well and also can be learned. If my birds survive several hawk attacks, they become hawk smart. If the bird dies from hawk attack, then it can't pass its genes so the one that get left behind ended up breeding better hawk-aware, hawk-smart birds.

With respect to inbreeding, you don't inbreed for the sake of inbreeding. You must have a purpose because inbreeding is two-edge sword. You will lock both good and bad traits.

My goals in breeding are to develop birds that have good homing ability, fast, healthy birds (require less medicine) and can survive hawk/falcon attacks. I am partially successful.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well Robert, over the last what.... seven years and thousands of posts, it is only natural that some of our ideas would differ from time to time, but on this, I am pretty sure we are on the same page !


Hear, hear!
I join both of you on this.
And re lee hit the nail on the head, when mating winner to winner does not give you the expected results...
Why?

JPS


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> What I want to be able to test for is if a hen has a strong count of mtDNA in her. That would be the shortcut to finding a proven producer hen.


How do you find out?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

ace in the hole said:


> The only shortcut that I know would be to do your reserch on who has a top producing hen that has consistantly produced excelent birds with several different cocks and then buy that hen.
> 
> 
> Other than that there is no shortcut that I know of.


That hen is not for sale, sir! is what you are likely to hear.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> Don't want to blow anyones mind here, but the mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother bird. If you were able to first come up with a way to determine the top racing birds in the world over the past 100 years, then trace a pedigree back I bet you would come up with 5 or less hens which these birds all developed from. You will often times run into a dead end in many animals, if perhaps a female only had sons, none of her mitochondrial DNA will be passed on to future generations. That being said...mitochondrial DNA supposedly has no effect on the genetics of any individual, just a way to trace the mothers lineage (not sure I buy that one, but thats what the science says). Just a PS...scientists have been able to trace human mitochondrial DNA back to 7 'founding' females. Thats right, all of us on this planet can be traced back to 7 original females as of right now, often termed 'The 7 daughters of Eve'.


Most interesting piece of information! Any reference books or links you can suggest, Matt, please?


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Jimhalekw said:


> Warren I am personally convinced that a hawk smart pigeon is a trait that can be passed, I also believe it can be random. All things being equal there are some birds that stay more alert and or wary of anything. That could also describe a bird that acts wild, but that is not what I am talking about. To me a bird that is uncontrollably wild is a bird that should not be bred from as the wild behavior can pass to others in the loft as well as the offspring. I know exactly which two birds are my most hawk smart in my loft, male and female. The female bred a bird that survived in Brooksville Fl out to 400, with the hawks in Florida that says something! The male has breeding record of his young turning out, what I consider hawk smart, over 75% of the time. I have been tempted to mate these two together as I have never bred for hawk smart as my main objective when pairing. Maybe a late hatch this year. Jim


Please let us know the results if you do mate the hawk-smart pair together.
Also about that wild or crazy type, it can freak out all other birds in the loft, but doesn't necessarily get lost on the road though.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

jpsnapdy said:


> Most interesting piece of information! Any reference books or links you can suggest, Matt, please?


Well...There is a book called 'The 7 Daughters of Eve' which talks about the human side (though mitochondrial DNA works the same in all animals, you could replace human with pigeons if you wanted just to get the idea). Basically they came up with 7 'centers' of human evolution, or founding groups which then spread through the world. By calculating mutation rates they were able to date each founding population, and its not hard to figure out human migration by looking at the dates of the founding populations. Its a very interesting read, and not overly complicated (meaning you don't need a degree in population genetics to understand what is being said.) Now, if you are wanting just information on how mitochondrial DNA works (or even why mitochondria have DNA) a simple google search would suffice.


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