# Going light, bloody stools



## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm taking this one to the vet later today, but in the meantime I wanted to ask you guys what you think. 

Rosie, a 3-year-old roller (one I raised) suddenly started passing blood in her stool. When I picked her up I realized she had lost weight. We have over 80 pigeons so I don't handle every one every day and I can't be sure when the weight loss began. She looks surprisingly good otherwise and is eating well. I separated her from the flock as soon as I realized she was passing blood in her stool. It's scary--looks like a lot of blood and it's bright red. But then even a little blood colors everything. Strangely enough her droppings otherwise look normal and not every one contains blood. She exhibits that "lobster tail" stance that indicates abdominal pain, though she's still fairly alert and active.

My first thought was worms, though I medicate them for that several times a year and we've never had a problem with worms. None of the other pigeons appear ill. 

Do worms manifest this way? Would they cause that much blood in the droppings? Having no experience with them, I don't know what I'm looking for. Haven't seen changes in the other birds' droppings. 

Hexamitia? Coccidiosis? I treat routinely for those things too, and rotate meds.

My other thought was a reproductive problem. Rosie hasn't laid eggs in the last couple months though she has a mate and laid regularly before that. 

This will be my third trip to the vet this week.  On Wednesday I took in a little fantail hen of mine who had an abcess on her face that never cleared up, despite several previous visits. My vet finally had to surgically remove the gunk that had built up in a big knot on her face. I picked her up yesterday. We now have a _very expensive _ pet quality fantail, but I'm much relieved to see her cute little face finally back to normal. It all started months ago with an injury to her cere received in a fight over a nest box. 

With this many birds it's always something. At least I'm blessed with a good avian vet near by.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't know what's wrong with her.........I had the same thing happen a few years ago, but it was a cock bird. I thought the blood was from a fight, but I suspected the cock bird the blood came from, so moved him into a pen by his self. Next morning, more blood on the floor. I wormed him and he was fine after that. I expect since this is a female, it could several things........hope she'll be ok.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for the quick reply, Renee. I'm encouraged to hear your pigeon with a similar problem responded well to treatment for worms.

Even though the idea grosses me out, I kinda hope it _is _worms because that's fairly easy to treat. I have Combi-Worm tablets (Oxybendazole 20 mg and Niclosamide 59 mg) but I'm reluctant to give them to her until I know for certain that's what it is. I'm hoping my vet will be able to determine that there in his office. 

I may have actually seen blood the day before and didn't think much of it. I've several pigeons with feathered or slightly feathered feet. When molting they often break pinfeathers on their feet and bleed on the perches.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cathy, I'm sorry to hear about your roller's health and hope that it's something
treatable w/medications and not all out hen problems that will require surgery.
One kind of gets suspicious w/a hen that stops laying that subsequent health
issues w/some possibly matching symptoms are hen issues. Sure hope this isn't
the case for you. Hexamitia, ecoli, possibly worms, possibly canker can cause 
blood in the stools if I'm remembering correctly. The worms and canker causing
that kind of blood would be more a fluky thing dependant on where/how either
infection had proceeded and both can damage tissue and go to unpredictable
places (for worms the wandering jouvenile mode). I think you could find that
kind of blood for more complex issues not related to these disease conditions.

All I can say is, if you can collect some of these bloody droppings it might be
very helpful for your vet if you haven't already. Hope all goes well w/your visit.

fp

PS-Haven't heard of that wormer....Oxybendazole 20 mg and Niclosamide 59 mg.....Niclosamide that is. I see it's for tape worms.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have had the same problem with my Rosie and also with Blackie, both hens. They go downhill and then make a bit of a recovery. I have treated them with Baytril, because that has stopped the bleeding. Rosie's former owners said that she improved with Septrim (Bactrim). I am off to the vet this afternoon with an ex-homer who is plucking his chest bare and was going to ask for some metronidazole just in case it is hexamita.

I would be interested to hear what your vet has to say.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I've had Giarrdia present that way. The first time was in a duck and there was so much blood I couodn't believe it. Most recently it was in a little Roller and again a lot of blood. The duck didn't survive. By the time I received him, it was too late and passed before the vet could get to the house.
The roller did just fine with oral Ivomec.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for the input, you guys. Ironic that one of your hens with the problem is also named Rosie, Cynthia. My first inclination was to simply treat for worms but I thought better of it because it seems there are so many other things that can present this way and I don't want to use the "shotgun" approach. I'll let you know what the vet says. In the meantime, Rosie doesn't look any worse this morning. She's bright and alert and gobbling down the extra safflower seed I gave her which I take as a good sign.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cathy, we had a little hen that did this and she was egg bound. The vet took care of it and she was 100%.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I'm taking this one to the vet later today, but in the meantime I wanted to ask you guys what you think.
> 
> Rosie, a 3-year-old roller (one I raised) suddenly started passing blood in her stool. When I picked her up I realized she had lost weight. We have over 80 pigeons so I don't handle every one every day and I can't be sure when the weight loss began. She looks surprisingly good otherwise and is eating well. I separated her from the flock as soon as I realized she was passing blood in her stool. It's scary--looks like a lot of blood and it's bright red. But then even a little blood colors everything. Strangely enough her droppings otherwise look normal and not every one contains blood. * She exhibits that "lobster tail" stance that indicates abdominal pain, though she's still fairly alert and active.*
> 
> ...


Hi Cathy,

With the above symptoms it does sound like a possible egg bound/oviduct issue or infection. I'm glad she is going to the vet. You can always treat for worms later. Meanwhile give her a garlic cap, if you haven't that will help, and won't hurt in either case.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Birdmom, I hope everything went well for your hen at the vets this morning.

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Well I'm glad I took her to the vet; otherwise I'd have thrown meds at her for no reason. The news is not good.  The vet felt a large mass in her lower abdomen which he said was probably either an egg issue (not a normal egg) or a tumor. He x-rayed her and there is a huge, hard mass there. It's not a normal egg. He can't tell from the x-ray if it's a tumor or a "mummified" egg, but he said he can't do anything for her. The surgery to remove it has about a 10-20% survival rate and he did not recommend we go that route. He recommended I take her home and keep her as comfortable as possible, so that's what I did. 

We had a homer hen go this way a few years ago. Eventually she became so weak, emaciated and in obvious pain that I took her in and had her put down. I don't like thinking about it because I'm afraid it will be the same way for Rosie. 

I moved birds around and settled Rosie and her mate alone in one of our small aviaries where she won't have to compete for food but will have him for company. What a shame. She's unusual in that she is all red, no gray patch on her rump or white anywhere. She is a granddaughter of my first pigeon (in my adult life, that is), Percy. Her family is known for their sweetness and calm dispositions and though she's not the tamest of the lot, she's a sweet little bird.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't know if you are interested in trying this or not, but you might want
to email Dr. Speer and run it by him and see what he has to say about it.
A second opinion can't hurt. Here's his info:

Brian Speer, DVM
Diplomate,ABVP, Certified in avian practice
Diplomate,ECAMS, Certified specialist in avian medicine and surgery (Europe)

[email protected]

Anyway, Cathy, I'm sorry to hear about your sweet hen and her problems. It's very sad.

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What a shame but I'm glad you took her in and now you know.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry the prognosis is poor, Cathy. Hopefully Rosie will be able to stay with you for a good time yet with no pain or serious symptoms.

Terry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> I don't know if you are interested in trying this or not, but you might want
> to email Dr. Speer and run it by him and see what he has to say about it.
> A second opinion can't hurt. Here's his info:
> 
> ...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry Cathy. 

Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I am so sorry to hear about Rosie, Cathy!

Sending warm healing thoughts with love, hugs and scritches!

Squeaks and I wish Rosie all the best! Please let us know how things go.

Shi & Squeaks


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cathy, I'm really sorry to read about the diagnosis for Rosie. We were faced with the same thing with our Gracie who was 14 years old. I don't know how long the vet gives Rosie but do watch for any obvious suffering because Gracie did suffer about 3 days before we finally made the decision to put her to sleep. Gracie also seemed to have some memory loss during her final days, acting like she didn't know where she was. It is a tough, tough decision to make.

Cathy, if this is the same vet you had for Romeo then I would trust whatever he says.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thank you, Maggie. It _is_ the same vet who cared for Romeo and that's why I trust him. He's no fan of euthanasia and doesn't put an animal down unless it's really time. The hard part for me, and I'm sure for everyone, is deciding when it's time. I know this is part of being a responsible pet owner but it's always tough. You don't want to do it when they still have some quality of life but you don't want to wait until they are suffering horribly. And you can only judge by behavior--you don't know what they are actually feeling. I asked my vet about painkillers. He said there are some good ones available for birds now. So I plan to go to him and ask for some when I can tell Rosie is in a bad way, but he did not feel they were warranted at this point. I suspect she is uncomfortable right now but not in terrible pain.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cathy, I do understand about finances, believe me. Ruffles was one lucky bird,
I think of the birds that I have and what could I do in the event of some troubles that intervention modes I'm used to will do nothing to correct. I truly
coudln't afford surgery for all of my hens, as sad as that would be.

I know you will provide the best that you possibly can for Rosie.

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Ironic that one of your hens with the problem is also named Rosie, Cynthia


.

And the shared problem is more than pooping blood.

The vet that initially treated my Rosie thought her problems were related to parasites.

I felt her underside and there was a hard object there that felt like an egg, so I took her to an avian vet for x-rays. The X-rays showed a massive abdominal tumour that had diplaced her organs, shoving them all upwards.

I wasn't given the option of taking her home. It was either euthanasia or an attempt at removing the mass. As she was under anaesthetic for the X-ray the vet told me she could do the operation immediately. She asked the clients that were waiting for her to see another vet and carried out emergency surgery.

Rosie survived the operation and they showed me the tumour. It was a massive thing (about the size of two fingers and the thumb on a clenched fist) with necrotic material inside it. She told me something about its origins but whatever she said slipped through my brain immediately.

Rosie stayed in overnight and I have just telephoned to find out that she is doing well but waiting for the vet to do her rounds.

One thing that should have alerted me is that Rosie had developed a sharp keel but her weight was healthy as it was increased by the weight of the tumour.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When you say it had necrotic material inside it... did they cut it apart for you and it looked like some kind of living flesh or did it look more like scrambled eggs or what?

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The tumour was wrapped around black crumbly stuff. I don't think it was an egg.

Unfortunately Rosie died. I have been telephoning the surgery all afternoon and was suspicious as no one would speak to me, they said the vet (not the one that operated) would phone when she finished her consultancy.

I am so sad about this! 

Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I am SO sorry to hear about Rosie, Cynthia!!

Sounds like the tumor, surgery or both were just too much for her...

Sending you Love and Hugs at this sad time...

Shi & Squeaks


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, I am so sorry to read about Rosie. I'd give you a big hug if I could.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Poor Rosie, I'm so sorry for both of you, Cynthia, I know you will miss her very dearly.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry, Cynthia. What a sad outcome  

Terry


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Cynthia, I'm so very sorry. At least you tried all you could to save her. 

In my Rosie's case, which unfortunately sounds very, very similar to your Rosie, my vet was extremely reluctant to do the surgery because he didn't think she would survive it. I can feel the mass myself and it is huge and seems to be growing. My husband doesn't want me to pursue further treatment and I know it's because he doesn't want to have a thousand dollar dead bird. I hope that doesn't sound cold--he would spend that much if she had a good chance. But apparently she doesn't. 

It's very hard for me to do nothing else for her medically.  I had to put her in a hutch by herself because her mate drove her relentlessly. I don't feel I can put another hen in with her because I don't want her to be forced to compete for food when she's barely eating as it is. She stopped eating pigeon mix, even her beloved safflower, but I've gotten her to eat fortified finch mix. My vet once told me millet is highly digestible and there's a lot of millet in it. Plus it's tiny seeds and probably easier for her to eat. She has all she can eat, clean water and a place to sun herself. 

It disturbs me that Rosie is not our first hen to go this way. We lost two older homer hens with the same symptoms. Rosie is young, though, only three. So how did she get cancer (if that's what it is)? My geese died young, too, despite my best attempts to take good care of them. Romeo had a huge abdominal mass when he died. Is it our water? Our soil? The pesticides the neighbors use in their yard? It really makes me wonder how many more of my birds are going to suffer this way. I do my best to prevent all the common pigeon diseases, with reasonable success. But how do I prevent cancer?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for your condolences Shi, fp, Maggie, Terry and Cathy...we have had other tragic losses in the last two weeks, I haven't even been up to doing a Hall of Love thread. It is all too sad.

Cathy, I'm not sure that these tumours are cancerous, they seem to be non-invasive. Perhaps pigeons are as prone to them as dogs are to cancer. I understand how your husband feels. When I thought that Rosie would survive I determined to take Blackie in for X-rays and surgery if necessary. Now I think that to do so will just cut her life short at great expense, she is still enjoying her food and flying. She is one of my original 5 PMV rescues, so a very precious member of the family. 

CYnthia


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Cynthia, I'm sorry for your other losses, too. It's really hard when they come in multiples. You're not over grieving one when another one knocks you flat.  

I find it terribly ironic that both our hens are named Rosie and got sick with the same symptoms at the same time. What did your Rosie look like? Mine is all red. I'll post a picture so you can see. I took this picture earlier this summer, before I knew she was sick. 

-Cathy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about your Rosie, Cynthia, my heart goes out to you. 


Cathy, the picture of your Rosie is lovely. Thank you for sharing it.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Trees.

Cathy, your Rosie is stunning! Mine was a pink red checker:


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry for the loss of your Rosie and all your losses lately, Cynthia. 

Birdmom, I am sorry your Rosie is so sick. I hope she still has a long time ahaid of her.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Cathy, Rosie is STUNNING! What a lovely hen!!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cathy, it is difficult regardless of what you choose for Rosie. She is a very
beautiful bird and clearly well cared for, they just seem to have far more complex health issues than some other pets/animals that folks become involved with. I'm glad that she is comfortable and still enjoying her surroundings.

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

*Update on Rosie*

Well...it's been awhile but I wanted to give you guys Rosie's amazing update. 

After contacting a couple different vets (thank you FP and Pidgey) I came to the conclusion that Rosie's problem was most likely due to an infected oviduct, not cancer. I was prepared to send her to Oklahoma for surgery (it's cheaper there) and had even ordered the shipping box. In the meantime, Steve said "Why don't you try putting her on Baytril?" I figured there was nothing to lose, so I started her on generic Baytril. That was about two weeks after I first realized she was sick. I decided to keep her on it for a month. I've had pigeons before with entrenched infections and a vet prescribed Baytril for that duration.

Rosie began improving within days. She regained her appetite and gained weight. She finally began to molt. The mass remained, however, and frankly I didn't expect it to go away even if the infection did. Then about a week ago I felt the mass and discovered it was much smaller! Today it is almost gone. We decided to leave her on Baytril for just a little longer. I also have her on daily garlic capsules. I have some concern about the side effects of keeping her on antibiotics so long, but I also don't want to stop before the infection is completely cleared up. I'm considering taking her back to my vet for another x-ray to see what the status is. 

She looks and acts normal at this point. I still have her separated from the flock and will keep her apart until she finishes her molt. But I plan to put her back in the loft as soon as she's done molting and the mass is completely gone. It may seem cruel to keep her alone, but I don't want her to be stimulated to lay again until I'm sure she's completely over the infection.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW!! That's just GREAT NEWS about Rosie, BirdMom4Ever!!

Now, I'll be sitting on pins and needles to see what happens!!!

SENDING ALL OUR BEST HEALING THOUGHTS ALONG WITH LOVE, HUGS AND SCRITCHES!!

Shi & Squeaks


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cathy, that _is great news_ about Rosie and the reduction in size of the
growth. You might want to have the vet check for budding yeast after you've
finished the round w/Baytril, though if you are giving the garlic concurrently,
it may have taken care of that issue. Good to check though, that and rebuilding 
the flora/fauna would be the main concerns after extended antibiotic
use even for us.

I don't think it seems cruel at all to keep her separated from the rest of the
birds, and she is probably thinking she's a pretty special hen right now for all
the pampering.....and well she is  .

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Awesome, Cathy!!! You have incredible intuition - so glad Rosie is showing so much improvement!!!


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Cathy, that _is great news_ about Rosie and the reduction in size of the
> growth. You might want to have the vet check for budding yeast after you've
> finished the round w/Baytril, though if you are giving the garlic concurrently,
> it may have taken care of that issue. Good to check though, that and rebuilding
> ...


Yeast is my main concern, too. So far no sign of problems, though. I'm hoping the garlic plus ACV in her water will keep it from being a problem. She's eating well, droppings are normal and she looks great. As soon as she finishes the Baytril I'll give her probiotics.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Great update Cathy! I'm so glad to hear Rosie is doing so much better!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is such great news, Cathy. I am so glad that you followed your heart.

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a good news update! I'm so glad Rosie has responded to the Baytril and is doing so well!

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that sometimes works. Now you have to keep an eye on Rosie for the next few months to see that it doesn't return. If a problem caused the oviduct to rupture or scar, it might turn up a problem later. Just feel her back end every few days and see how she gets on.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hens requiring oviduct surgery will typically relapse, though you might get
creative and/or lucky. Maybe it'll be a bit of both... Speer performs ovary removal as well (about 95%) as the probability of developing cancer is pretty good without removal.

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I will definitely be keeping a close eye on her and will check her on a regular basis.


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