# Broken Keel



## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I have a yb that I thought was hawk attacked as it had puncture wounds across its back and in it's chest. I cleaned his wounds and quarantined him for a few days and he seemed like he was going to recover just fine so I returned him back to the loft. This all happened back in September so he was placed on my "injured reserve" list until he fully recovered. He has been let out to loft fly daily with my yb team and just by looking at him you wouldn't be able to guess anything was wrong with him. 

Anyway long story short he was driving hens in my yb loft tonight so I picked him up to see how well his wounds had healed and he had a huge scab on his chest which wasn't there before. So I brought him inside and me and my girlfriend took a closer look under the lights. We pulled back the feathers and the scab went inside of his body..I gently pulled on the clump and it popped out. 

His Keel came out with the scab Somehow this yb has been strutting around driving hens and fighting with my other birds without a breast bone.
The keel piece that came out is almost 2 1/2" long and the yb has a very deep puncture wound. I treated the area with Hydrogen peroxide and it didn't even bubble...The wound didn't bleed and the bird seems to be fine. I have him inside the house beside my desk right now and I'm wondering if I should stitch him up with needle and thread or let the Iodine and liquid bandage I put on him do its thing. We are both amazed this guy is such a fighter. Wouldn't a normal pigeon die having its chest bones pop out? When he came home bleeding from his Hawk encounter I guess he was more banged up then I originally thought. 

As this is all new to me (doctoring pigeons ) I'm trying to do the best I can for this lil guy is there anything else I should do right now?


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

*No help????*

We were both waiting to see if someone had any suggestions for helping this bird and still no replies. We called a local avian vet and they estimate it is going be at $200 to treat this bird.($46 for the office visit and the rest for the surgery with no guarantees) 

I don't like the idea of suturing this wound closed because if it has dead flesh inside the wound (hence the bird not bleeding when the broken keel was removed) I could be causing more harm then good to this bird

I searched the archives and found a reply that Pidgy gave a fancier back in 2005 dealing with a similiar puncture wounds issue. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/using-duoderm-before-sutures-12983.html



Pidgey said:


> Yong,
> 
> Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue. As such, they will often not deal well with deep wounds that create abscesses. What's typical is for the body to attempt to "wall off" such a plug by mineralizing it. It can create a persistent nidus of infection later. That stuff's gotta' go.
> 
> ...


 Having read this does anyone have any advice on how to treat this bird???

Does anyone think I should or should not suture this wound on the birds chest? If I do the debride with hydrogen peroxide or iodine and slather on the triple antibiotic is this "good enough" or do I need to buy the Duoderm?

BTW..the broken keel bone piece is more like a 1" 1/2 not 2" 1/2 inches..and looking at it closer today its all black and jagged.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That's really weird. Never heard of that happening! Do you have any pictures? I'm not sure what to tell you


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

Thats incredible that bird is a fighter.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> That's really weird. Never heard of that happening! Do you have any pictures? I'm not sure what to tell you


I can try and post some tomorrow night...we have load in at 7pm for Saturdays 100 mile race. I saved the bone piece that worked its way out of his chest in case the vet was going to need it. I'll have my girlfriend hold him and you can see what I'm talking about...(not for the squeamish)



orock said:


> Thats incredible that bird is a fighter.


 I agree..I told my buddy at work about it today and he nicknamed this bird "zombie" I thought something as small as a bb could kill a pigeon...This guy not only broke the grip of whatever was strong enough to snap his rib cage...he flew home bleeding with multiple puncture wounds!!!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm thinking a hawk or something caught him and then slammed into something hard, whether it be the ground when the hawk landed with him, or maybe it was chasing the bird so desperately that they colided with a wall or tree. Just some ideas. I can picture that happening and the hawk being so caught off guard that the pigeon got away.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would send a PM to Dobato, I've red a lot of her posts and she seems to have a lot of knowledge on pigeons.
Dave


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

You don't want to stitch this guy up at this point, but let it close on its own, this is what the term healing by second or third intention in Pidgey's post means, no surgical intervention, but keeping the wound clean, debriding any necrotic tissue you can as it heals (dead tissue in and around the wound), keeping it coated with Neosporin and in time it will close (you can use a Q-Tip to coat the inside of the wound).

Also, best not to use hydrogen peroxide on wounds, as the bubbling you see is the reaction of cells to the peroxide as it breaks down into water and oxygen, it's the oxygen that kills bacteria, but this strong oxidative process can also damage tissue. slowing down the healing process, so best just to use saline when rinsing wounds (1 teaspoon of salt to 8oz of boiled water), this also goes for alcohol on wounds, use saline instead. You can use a syringe to sluice saline into the channel to clean and then coat with the Neosporin, the Duoderm is a hydrocolloid dressing meant to keep wounds moist and clean, as wounds heal best if keep moist, by sluicing with saline and coating with Neosporin you will be providing this. 

I would also, as a precaution, treat this guy with 7-10 days of both Metronidazole and beta lactam antibiotic (penicillin family) such as Amoxicillin or Clavamox. You may want to still get him into the vet, but these are my thoughts.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Dobato, what are your thoughts on using honey/sugar on the open wound? 
One of the vets I work for does alot of farm calls, and has quite a few ducks, chickens and roosters come in from 'dog attacks'. He cleans the wound, debrides as much as he can, plucks the feathers, then coats it with honey/sugar (half pure honey/half sugar mixed together to make a paste). I've read that its excellent for healing open wounds, but have never had to use it. Have you ever heard of this?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I would use honey without the sugar. Honey has anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal, anti-microbial, and anti-inflammatory properties  Very good for healing things quickly. I use it on myself with a bandaid. You may want to cover it up somehow so bugs don't think it's a buffet, haha.


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

Every time I look at these threads I learn something new I love it.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I would use honey without the sugar. Honey has anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal, anti-microbial, and anti-inflammatory properties  Very good for healing things quickly. I use it on myself with a bandaid. You may want to cover it up somehow so bugs don't think it's a buffet, haha.


Mixing it with the sugar makes a paste that hardens, keeps it in place and protects the site.......like if you put too much sugar in chocolate chip cookies...they get hard!  My boss uses it on all open injuries on fowl, and it heals beautifully.
I would show you the link I HAD on it, but my PC died (so I lost all my bookmarks!!!!!!!!!), and I'm down to my laptop


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh My God, I think my heart would stop if a bird's keel bone came out of a live bird. 
I really wish the best for this little guy, you are so brave for caring for it.

PS. Here in Australia we can't get antibiotic ointments over the counter. Does anyone know is iodine is an ok substitute for Neosprin? Or could you make up a topical suspension made of honey and antibiotic powder, something like that?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> Mixing it with the sugar makes a paste that hardens, keeps it in place and protects the site.......like if you put too much sugar in chocolate chip cookies...they get hard!  My boss uses it on all open injuries on fowl, and it heals beautifully.
> I would show you the link I HAD on it, but my PC died (so I lost all my bookmarks!!!!!!!!!), and I'm down to my laptop


I didn't know that about the sugar! Very cool


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Msfreebird, yes, I have heard of using sugar on wounds and have read a number of anecdotal reports that it works well in healing wounds where a number of other methods have failed. It can be mixed with honey, or alone, the honey makes sense as it would help keep the wound bed moist and encourage granulation. I think both sugar and/or honey are used more in fresh wounds, where there is exudate and open tissue. I think this wound has healed over and we need to try and debride any necrotic tissue that comes off or can be teased away from the wound and keep things clean and see if will seal up.

Bella, there is an over the counter ointment in Australia based on Betadine (which of course contains povidone-iodine). The thing with using iodine on birds is that iodine, even small amounts if absorbed/ingested, will alter their thyroid function, so caution has to be exercised when using iodine based products on them.

http://www.epharmacy.com.au/product.asp?id=31056&pname=Betadine+Antiseptic+Ointment++25g

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> You don't want to stitch this guy up at this point, but let it close on its own, this is what the term healing by second or third intention in Pidgey's post means, no surgical intervention, but keeping the wound clean, debriding any necrotic tissue you can as it heals (dead tissue in and around the wound), keeping it coated with Neosporin and in time it will close (you can use a Q-Tip to coat the inside of the wound).
> 
> Also, best not to use hydrogen peroxide on wounds, as the bubbling you see is the reaction of cells to the peroxide as it breaks down into water and oxygen, it's the oxygen that kills bacteria, but this strong oxidative process can also damage tissue. slowing down the healing process, so best just to use saline when rinsing wounds (1 teaspoon of salt to 8oz of boiled water), this also goes for alcohol on wounds, use saline instead. You can use a syringe to sluice saline into the channel to clean and then coat with the Neosporin, the Duoderm is a hydrocolloid dressing meant to keep wounds moist and clean, as wounds heal best if keep moist, by sluicing with saline and coating with Neosporin you will be providing this.
> 
> ...


I believe you are right. I did'nt have help yesterday to hold the bird for me so I had to wait until today to get the pics up. I kept the hole cleaned with iodine and suaved on triple anti-biotic ointment and today we checked him and its closing on its own just fine (no stiches needed  ) Anyway the piece that slid out of him has turned gnarly and black. Here are some pics I just took.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Glad you feel things are coming along. Again, I will mention that I would put this guy on the meds I mentioned as a precaution against any possible infection we can't see that is inside, or that could develop with the closing, this is what I would do to try and make sure we aren't taking anything for granted.

Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

*Some more pics*

Here some more pics of the gnarly piece...almost funny as I post this...the song Iron Man is playing on the radio... This is definitely one "Iron Pigeon" in my mind. He is recovering just fine...I have him inside and his droppings are raisin shaped pebbles and he eats likes like he's starving. I'm sure he is going to recover just fine.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Glad you feel things are coming along. Again, I will mention that I would put this guy on the meds I mentioned as a precaution against any possible infection we can't see that is inside, or that could develop with the closing, this is what I would do to try and make sure we aren't taking anything for granted.
> 
> Please keep us updated.
> 
> Karyn


I tried to buy Amoxycillian for him but the Pharmacist said only by prescription. So tomorrow I'll buy a bottle of Fishmox at my feed store for him. Thank you.


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

Wow them pictures say it all. IRON PIGEONS.
..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

JaxRacingLofts said:


> So tomorrow I'll buy a bottle of Fishmox at my feed store for him. Thank you.


Sounds good, Fishmox comes in either 250mg or 500mg capsules, you want to get about 25mg into him q12h for 10 days. If you need help turning the capsules into a suspension let me know, also, if some how they do not have Fishmox, you could put him on Sulmet or Albon as an alternative, but Amoxicillin would be preferable. You would also need a 1cc syringe, the kind without an attached needle, to dose liquid meds.

I suggested also using the Metronidazole, as a good deal of time if there is any Osteomyelitis (bone infection) present, there is a chance that anaerobic bacteria could be involved. Outside of treating for canker, Metronidazole is a drug of choice for anaerobic infections. If you don't have any on hand Metronidazole would be worthwhile ordering in, and started a bit later, as if you have pigeons, this is one of the meds you should have in your medicine cabinet in any event.

Karyn


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Sounds good, Fishmox comes in either 250mg or 500mg capsules, you want to get about 25mg into him q12h for 10 days. If you need help turning the capsules into a suspension let me know, also, if some how they do not have Fishmox, you could put him on Sulmet or Albon as an alternative, but Amoxicillin would be preferable. You would also need a 1cc syringe, the kind without an attached needle, to dose liquid meds.
> 
> I suggested also using the Metronidazole, as a good deal of time if there is any Osteomyelitis (bone infection) present, there is a chance that anaerobic bacteria could be involved. Outside of treating for canker, Metronidazole is a drug of choice for anaerobic infections. If you don't have any on hand Metronidazole would be worthwhile ordering in, and started a bit later, as if you have pigeons, this is one of the meds you should have in your medicine cabinet in any event.
> 
> Karyn


I do have Sulmet right now...if I start him on that should I stay with it and follow through for the 7-10 days..or start him on that and order the Metronidazole from Global (should get it Tuesday if I order today) and switch him over when I get it?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

JaxRacingLofts said:


> I do have Sulmet right now...if I start him on that should I stay with it and follow through for the 7-10 days..or start him on that and order the Metronidazole from Global (should get it Tuesday if I order today) and switch him over when I get it?


If you can, do try and get the Fishmox, as it has better penetration into necrotic tissue than the sulfa drug (Sulmet), if you did go ahead and start the Sulmet, it's not a problem to still get the Fishmox and start him on it as soon as you get it in the morning (stopping the Sulmet), Amoxicillin and Sulfamethazine (Sulmet) are not antagonistic, so there won't be a problem doing this. When you get Metronidazole, you will give this medicine *and* the Amoxicillin at the same time as well, as the Metronidazole is meant to work together with the Amoxicillin to broaden the coverage for pathogenic bacteria.

Karyn


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