# Black Sions



## 1st Landing Lof (May 15, 2008)

Does anyone know where I can get a pair of Black Sions? Youngbirds, squeekers or breeders will do. 

Thanks 
Bill


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

1st Landing Lof said:


> Does anyone know where I can get a pair of Black Sions? Youngbirds, squeekers or breeders will do.
> 
> Thanks
> Bill


 What exactly are " Black Sions" ?

I knew of the great Paul Sion strain, but he was dead decades before the 1960's...my dates might be a bit off, but the last Sion pigeon died in the 1950's or earlier. And to the best of my knowlege, Paul Sion never owned any black pigeons. The best one could hope for, is what may be left after numerous generations, through numerous fanciers hand's, which are now called something for commercial purposes.


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

I have some dark velvet long end stuff you could have if you lived close to NY. I filled my loft with them when i first started but i've gone almost exclusively to a performance based middle distance bird. I keep the long end birds as widow hens and feeders mainly. Nice to look at but slower than death on race day.
They make nice pets.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You will find people that say they have sions to this day. Wher really they do not. NOW sion based birds yes perhaps. As Warren said Paul Sion has been gone many years And Sions from other key sources those people have gone also. But even people still say they have wegge also Who has been gone for the longest time. You will find someone who will sale you some black birds called sions. Just remember they really are not but a base line strain anymore. And That is as best. Will not be that many more years AND janssens will be base lined also.


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## 1st Landing Lof (May 15, 2008)

Thats true, but you could say that about a lot of strains like Wegge, Hofkens ect. There not many if any strains pure today. And where do you suppose they got their birds when they created all of these strains? 
The fact is that most pedigrees that come with birds are not very accurate if you want to split hairs. Would it make you feel better if I asked where to buy Black homers? 
If there any Black homing pigeons out there that claim to be "Black Sions" I would like to know so I could make whom ever a offer for them. And if you have a pedigree that says they are from the Sion strain, all the better. Please email me at [email protected].
Thanks


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

1st Landing Lof said:


> *Would it make you feel better if I asked where to buy Black homers? * If there any Black homing pigeons out there that claim to be "Black Sions" I would like to know so I could make whom ever a offer for them. And if you have a pedigree that says they are from the Sion strain, all the better. Please email me at [email protected].
> Thanks



LOL........sorry.  but that's funny. Folks like to make a big deal about a bird being or NOT being this or that..........most of us know that's true...there's no pure strains of anything out there. I personally have never seen, or recall seeing, black Sions. There's lots of Dark Checks.......I've checked out the Sions lots of times but have never spent the money to buy any. Good luck finding some.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I would agree, but also bear in mind that people that say they have Janssens are about as accurate. I have one Janssen bird in my loft and than many more that have Janssen lineage. I have a few more that I can say that are half, because they are bred to my Janssen bird. I know what Warren is thinking, if those birds passed through someone else they are not Janssens. I am saying she is a Janssen, because her four grandparents were out of the Janssen loft with Janssen lineage five generations deep. Ok go ahead and argue the point.

Ok back to Sions. I raced birds with Sion lineage back when I was a kid. Great longer distance birds. Slow but reliable. The last run-in with as close to a Sion as I could get was a gentleman in Grand Junction Colorado. He had an 18 year old cock that filled an egg or two from time to time, that he claimed was a Sion. He had a family of these birds that were his long distance birds. He was getting about $500 a pop for youngsters. He was sending them back east to fly in 400 mile yb and then 500-600 mile old bird races. I can remember as a kid looking at my two pedigrees and seeing imported birds with Sion written below the band number. This was mid 1970s so my thoughts are those birds had some Sion in them. Like my birds have Janssen in them. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Your best bet is if you are looking for black pigeon would be to look for a fancier that has black pigeons and not worry about the lineage. In my opinion, when colors besides, BB and BC, become your selection criteria than lineage or race record are not going to matter. If you are looking for birds to fly 500 miles, a bird with say Gordon, or Sion in its lineage might be a start. A better start would be to find a pair of Blacks that breed winners and get a few young off of them. Why do I say BB or BC, because that is all I have in my loft. Ha Ha. Warren might throw in a Red or two in his criteria. In other words color hear is only related to the fact that that is what color my birds are. 

My mentor has Black birds. I think his are off of some of Ganus birds. CBS has black birds. The are nice looking birds. Most likely more in the middle distance category. Here again, correct me if I am wrong, I do not see these birds on the top of the race sheet. I do think there is a family of HVR birds in Utah that are dark dark check almost black. Now these birds have good racing records. I would look up the Jones Boys in Utah. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.skylakesions.com/

Try this guy out. I think his birds do ok in races. There are also some dark birds in his loft. These birds may also get you close to Sion bloodline also. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Looks like these are 300 to 600 mile birds. Might be a nice long distance family. Sionish birds are also know to be good show pigeons. In some of the clubs and combines back east having sprinters, middle, and long distance pigeons is a must. Most have at least two different birds if they compete in all the races. Say Janssen based and Gordon Based birds. Sions might work here for the longer birds. Bob Kinney was one of the few that crossed Janssens with Gordons to found his family. He put speed into distance and distance into speed. He originally had Stassart based birds, but kept getting beat by the Gordons. He acquired Janssen birds that beat his Stassarts at short distances, and the Gordons beat both at long distances. So he got rid of the Stassart birds and crossed the other two and won everything. 

Good Luck


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## windyflat (Jul 19, 2007)

Jimmy Gettings Reunion racing loft would be a good bet for black pigeons
http://www.reunionracinglofts.us/
I have a few of his birds (not blacks) and i'm very impressed with them.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2008)

heres some black diamonds you might like to take a look at their peds look pretty impressive but you know what they say about peds 
http://www.chriscosloft.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=racingpigeons&item=1214947584
http://www.chriscosloft.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=racingpigeons&item=1214948055

at least they are homers and they are black ...hehe


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## 1st Landing Lof (May 15, 2008)

Thanks guys, I am really looking for a few Black birds. Diamonds or Africians. Its just that I have 2 pairs of "Sions" (thats what the peds say) and they are beautiful birds. Their babies are beautiful also. I will race them, but winning is secondary to me. I just like and enjoy the birds. I set out from the beginning set on certain birds. Now I have everything that I wanted except for a Black pair. So over the next several months I will find the pair thay suites me. Thanks for the info.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Let us know how those Sions do in the longer races?

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> I would agree, but also bear in mind that people that say they have Janssens are about as accurate. I have one Janssen bird in my loft and than many more that have Janssen lineage. I have a few more that I can say that are half, because they are bred to my Janssen bird. I know what Warren is thinking, if those birds passed through someone else they are not Janssens. I am saying she is a Janssen, because her four grandparents were out of the Janssen loft with Janssen lineage five generations deep. Ok go ahead and argue the point.
> 
> Ok back to Sions. I raced birds with Sion lineage back when I was a kid. Great longer distance birds. Slow but reliable. The last run-in with as close to a Sion as I could get was a gentleman in Grand Junction Colorado. He had an 18 year old cock that filled an egg or two from time to time, that he claimed was a Sion. He had a family of these birds that were his long distance birds. He was getting about $500 a pop for youngsters. He was sending them back east to fly in 400 mile yb and then 500-600 mile old bird races. I can remember as a kid looking at my two pedigrees and seeing imported birds with Sion written below the band number. This was mid 1970s so my thoughts are those birds had some Sion in them. Like my birds have Janssen in them.
> 
> Randy



Hello Randy,

Yea, I know we have discussed this aspect of "Names" of pigeons which report to ID their background.

I came across this article some time ago: http://www.pipa.be/artikelsnew/gallez/bricoux.htm

Which pertains to the late Dr. Arthur Bricoux, and what fanciers thought of him in his day. Paul Sion has his picture in the article, as the two exchanged birds from time to time. 

What I find revealing, is when a decade or so later in 1952, his son Arthur Jr. conducted a complete sell out of all remaining birds. It was apparent, at least in this article, that the birds had changed once they had passed into the hands of another fancier, even when Dr. Bricoux's own son. The birds were not as "classy". 

Now if the fanciers back then noticed a difference, when all the prime stock was kept "In the Family". One has to wonder, what the difference would have been, many more years and decades later, when a fancier did not have the benefit of all the original foundation stock ?

What I have noticed, is when a pigeon goes from stronger hands to weaker hands, the birds carry the name of the last pair of strong hands they were in. So if you buy a pair of birds from say a John Smith....that has never done much in terms of racing, he most likely will say, "These are from the best of Mike Ganus"...when you go to buy birds from Mike Ganus...he will say "These are the best of Ludo Claessen"....if you go to buy from Ludo Claessen, all the birds are somehow "Ludos" even if a cross, or even if Ludo collected it from a barn....

If the birds pass through some good hands, but not great hands, then maybe the names get these hyphens in them...like that's a "Heitzman-Sion" or "Dr. Phil -Janssen", or "Holy Cow - Janssen "....so if you purchase birds, that have never passed through any really strong hands, since the last one died in say 1942...well then your birds will carry the name of the guy from 1942. If a great bird passes into strong hands, then that bird becomes a part of that fanciers family, and the previous breeders are often lost to history. 

If you think about it, even if the stories are true, that some old man somewhere, for sixty years line bred a single family from a few birds. You would have birds that have never been crossed in sixty some years of breeding, and would represent racers of sixty years ago, not today's modern racing machine ! It would almost be like showing up at the race track with a model T, and trying to compete. Can't even win with the bloodlines which were hot 25 years ago...old technology. 

I owned birds from what my orginal mentor called, "Imported French Stuff" which were Paul Sion base....and I liked them. But, they were already outdated by the late 1960's. 

Anyway, that's my theory, and I'm sticking with it.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Well stated Warren. I agree 100%. Looking through my pedigrees leads me to believe that I have about 4 birds who's four grandparents were from one of those fanciers whos birds get a name. ie Janssen, vic Miller Engels. The others are crosses of the mix. Every bird that I have produced is something other. I finally purchased Hawkeye loft software. The hardest part of the whole thing is deciding what to put under strain. I took the four grandparents and made something up. ie. Miller / Janssen / Kinney. This gives me an idea of which birds they are down from at a glance. Gives no reference to a strain. Mutts they all are. Should just put Hill Family on them and forget about it. 
I do see a correlation within the good strain guys pedigrees. They seem to use 1/4 crosses into their families. Vic Miller did this, bringing into his Wonders such birds as Jos Thones etc. He line bred to Almost Perfect and Joseys Doll and then through in a cross. 

I think if anything I get from a so called "strain" an idea of what the birds will do. Say if someone says they have Sions, my thoughts are longer distance. Janssen based sprint to middle. Gordons - Longer. My new Marcelis bird I would think Sprint to Middle. This is what I use Names for. 

As for the black Sions. I would just get black birds and then put a hyphen in the name say Hill-Blacks or something like that. I just call my middle distance birds my Hill Family and my Speed birds my Parker - Janssens because my son claims the foundation pair. Really a Vic Miller x Janssen cross. Its all in a name. 

Randy


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## mill pigeon (Apr 2, 2008)

*black pigeons*

i really like the black pigeons too so i got some gurnays they are really nice birds i'll try to get some pics of some of my yb's tomorrow and post them theres even a gurnay club and we have a gurnay futurity every year if your interested i could send you a pair of squeekers if you pay shipping check out gurnays.com it shows some real good pics of what the breed looks like the birds i have came from a guy that raised this particullar family of birds for 61 years and has done well with them i just got them last year so i don't know how they'll do till yb season anyway let me know


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## mill pigeon (Apr 2, 2008)

*pics*

sorry it took so long i was on vacation


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## mill pigeon (Apr 2, 2008)




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## mill pigeon (Apr 2, 2008)

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z126/blackyj88/birds/


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2008)

> http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z126/blackyj88/birds/?action=view&current=DSCN4242.jpg


very nice looking birds you got there


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## hilltop (Mar 18, 2011)

I have never seen so many guys that think there are no true familys,,anymore ??!! I dont guess there are any pure Heitzman sions left ,,,,according to u experts,,I just talked to a gentelman that has pure Bricouxs since the 40s and their source,I am raising rollers that were brought to the US in 1932, with papers..so some of u guys dont give up too fast,, by what is written.....I am going after some pure bastins,,,,,,guess i better hurry before their extinct


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have one pair of pure black Jan Ardens that are imports from Belgium. They have what is called "soft feathers". Their feathers feel softer than "normal" pigeons.

I have raised two offspring from them last year. One got taken by a hawk at the loft and the other is being groomed to race this years old bird season. I did not race it in young birds as it was a later hatch.

I also have a pair of birds obtained from Sky Lake Sions, but they are red. I assume they are as Sion as can now be found.

But all of my birds are now "Thomas's". 

Seriously though. If I actually had a pure Sion and a pure Janssen, and mated them together. Would they be called Sion/Janssen crosses, or would they be called the Thomas strain of racing pigeon? How many generations of doing this would it take for them to be called the Thomas strain? Would it depend upon racing results, breeding records, or both?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

hilltop said:


> I have never seen so many guys that think there are no true familys,,anymore ??!! I dont guess there are any pure Heitzman sions left ,,,,according to u experts,,I just talked to a gentelman that has pure Bricouxs since the 40s and their source,I am raising rollers that were brought to the US in 1932, with papers..so some of u guys dont give up too fast,, by what is written.....I am going after some pure bastins,,,,,,guess i better hurry before their extinct


I knew of a person back in the early 1980s That had a bricoux line of birds 20 pair that he bred out of without outcrossing for 35 years. BUT one has to remember The next person breeds there birds there way putting soley there mark on the birds. I know of bird lines that can be traced back to the 1800s and what lines was introduced to them over the years. But they become agin changed by there breeders the people raising them. Many becoming say BETTER in the abilty. So A base line breeding would an at best name to describe the old line strain /family groups. Not to many real strains out there today. Even the ARDENS as the satory I had when I had ardens was that 3 pair were stolen back after the ww2 war So they to had to be reivented. As 3 pair and over 65 years later No way they could remain so called PURE. But names sure sound good here in the USA.


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## NO SWEAT (Mar 28, 2011)

1st Landing Lof said:


> Does anyone know where I can get a pair of Black Sions? Youngbirds, squeekers or breeders will do.
> 
> Thanks
> Bill


Hello, I have a few nice black check pure sions. And before this year is out, may breed some that turn out to be black velvets. These are extremely nice sions, the best you could ever hoope for. Blerssings. No Sweat. [email protected]


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## Goingatitagain (Feb 5, 2011)

Quote: I will race them, but winning is secondary to me. I just like and enjoy the birds. 


You said it best right here !!

As everyone has said,pure blood strains are a thing of the past. Birds that have had pure blood have passed through different fanciers through the years have pretty much been crossed.

There is some really great racing blood out there. Find yourself some good birds and enjoy your birds. That is the winning victory !


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## cbx1013 (Aug 12, 2009)

mill pigeon said:


> http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z126/blackyj88/birds/


Mill:

If you want to put a picture in a post, go to the picture you want to insert. Under it, or off to the side you will see a box that says "share this photo."

Go to the line that says "IMG Code" and click on the code. It should briefly say "copied."

Now, go back to PT and the post you want to put the picture in. With the cursor on the line you want the picture in, right click your mouse, and choose "paste."

The picture code from your photobucket account should appear. When you finish your post on PT, we will all see the picture you have inserted, not the code.

Hope this helps...

Don


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Here is a link to some of the old blood sions and yes some came and do come in what I would call a black velvet color. 

When inbreding is practised sooner or later you will get color variations, even colors that originally were not acknowledged by some as being part of the foundation stock! 

http://www.skylakesions.com/

Good luck


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## NO SWEAT (Mar 28, 2011)

conditionfreak said:


> I have one pair of pure black Jan Ardens that are imports from Belgium. They have what is called "soft feathers". Their feathers feel softer than "normal" pigeons.
> 
> I have raised two offspring from them last year. One got taken by a hawk at the loft and the other is being groomed to race this years old bird season. I did not race it in young birds as it was a later hatch.
> 
> ...


There are many different colors of Sions. I have seen many mealy colored racers and light red checks in my life that were Sions. But certainly, there are all colors including solid whites and solid blacks. I know that Charles Heitzman treasured his brick reds with dark eyes and most of all, his powder silvers with dark eyes--that is, strictly color speaking. Personally, I still love a beautiful blue bar. And with Sions, there are many. As for creating your own strain, I have long believed that if you can go back six straight generations on a pigeon and in that six generation pedigree are all birds all bred by you, then well, that is a reflection of you and truly, that bird becomes your strain. And should bear your name as such. It takes time to do this and whether you are aware of it or not your subconscious does rub off in all these matings and yes, most likely, you will develop your own strain in this process. Birds reflective of what you believe a pigeon should be like. Blessings. NO SWEAT


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