# Very Prominent Keel Bone On Tweet



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,
I had a thread about this bird in the Discussion Section with it's strange tweeting sound.
She came to me badly undernourished, but did seem quite perky and ate well, so I assumed she just needed feeding up and some tlc.

I've wormed her and given her spartrix, appertex and probiotics to date along with ACV just in case there was something brewing.

I am a bit concerned about her today and just wanted to run these pictures past some experts as her keel bone is very prominent. I didn't really recall it as being this bad when I first saw her.

This afternoon she ate like there was no tomorrow, while she ate she was doing this high pitched whistle, as though she was so excited. (Mind you she did have some Hemp seeds for the first time).
Not long after she was sitting very puffed up and breathing twice as fast as any of the other birds.
I've brought her into keep her in the warm and she is so docile, if I lie her on her back on my lap to take a picture, she just stays there and makes no attempt to move although she can fly.

I just wondered if this keel looks ok the way it's sticking out even though she's thin it looks odd. Just wanted my mind put at rest that there's not anything else I should be doing or checking.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Just a quick thought before I toddle off to bed ... I have been keeping check on the weight of my three residents, about every couple of days, as a guide to their ability to eat (being PMV pigeons). Maybe you could track Tweet's weight, to see if s/he is eating well but losing weight over a few days? It may indicate if something is amiss, taken with other things you notice.

John


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

John, I did think today that I should have weighed her. Will do tomorrow.

(night, night).

Janet.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, respiratory things can be a real problem. One of the old really bad ones was what amounted to a lung cancer-like condition caused by Aspergillosis. Aspergillus is a fungus that can be extremely bad in some cases. It's ubiquitous, meaning it's pretty much everywhere, and you generally have to be immunocompromised to succumb to it unless you get a massive dose. The descriptions in the old Boglin Marsh list told about the bird getting successively worse with virtually no hope of ever getting any better. 

That said, I'm not really suggesting that that's what this is--only that it could be. Anyhow, we usually treat respiratory issues with a Tetracycline like Doxycycline, but even that's a guess.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Well, I just have the usual Sunulox and Baytril on hand, any use in putting her on a course of something on the off chance.
I am going to see a vet on Thursday with my one with the hole in his chest, but that's another story, maybe I should pop her in aswell as he's a bird expert.

Just out of interest is this normal for the keel to come out at such a sharp 45 degree angle from the chest. I can't seem to find a picture that shows it on a skeleton. It didn't seem to feel the same on one of the other birds that has a good chest. First time I've had one so thin.

Janet


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The keel bone in the photos looks normal to me .. that's what I always see when I have very, very thin birds come in. Good luck with this little skinny one!

Terry


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

PS.

This is really random but just thought I'd mention it. She's been in a cage but in the shed with the other birds. During the week since she came, there has started to be a bit of a fishy smell in there.
I gave the place it's clean out today and scrubbed the perches and walls as usual, but I still noticed it slightly. 
When I went to clean her out I thought it came from her cage although she didn't really smell. Any internal problem that would cause that sort of smell? Her urates were a bit watery today even though they've been ok up to now.

Janet


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Oh Thanks Terry.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

amyable said:


> Any internal problem that would cause that sort of smell? Her urates were a bit watery today even though they've been ok up to now.
> 
> Janet


Birds that are emaciated have a strong and somewhat strange odor to them. My beloved Stinky was really smelly when I first got her. My vet said it was because of her emaciation and her body literally devouring itself in order to try and stay alive. It took a couple of months for the smell to go away, and when she was in a confined space (airline carrier), the odor was almost overwhelming. It seemed to be strongest in the middle of her back.

Don't know if this is what you are smelling or not .. 

Terry


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure would be good to give that bird formula in case she's having to work too hard to grind the seeds up in the gizzard. If you can grind seeds up, you can make your own formula but you have to have a way to tubefeed them, too. I can't remember if you're set up to do that or not.

Pidgey


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

You'll find some similar looking keel bones in these two series of pics:

http://www.rims.net/2007Apr05

http://www.rims.net/2008Jun10

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

amyable said:


> PS.
> 
> This is really random but just thought I'd mention it. She's been in a cage but in the shed with the other birds. During the week since she came, there has started to be a bit of a fishy smell in there.
> I gave the place it's clean out today and scrubbed the perches and walls as usual, but I still noticed it slightly.
> ...




Hi Janet,



Have her in her own Cage...use a white Towel for the Cage Bottom...have her indoors, so you can evaluate her poops and other details better.


I get in emaciated or even extremely emaciated Pigeons, and, unless feldglings, or injury which had occasioned starvation, this usually is the result of illness...oe illness has set in as a secondary issue anyway.


Antibiotics are my usual recourse...especially if they are making diahrrea or 'smelly' poops.


What antibiotic to elect...is another question...since hitting on the right one, things clear up fairly fast...where not-right-one(s)...days go by with no improves.


Is there any 'grey' film on her poops?


Are her Urates 'white' if 'watery' or 'clear' liquid..?


Or..?



Phil
l v


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Sure would be good to give that bird formula in case she's having to work too hard to grind the seeds up in the gizzard. If you can grind seeds up, you can make your own formula but you have to have a way to tubefeed them, too. I can't remember if you're set up to do that or not.
> 
> Pidgey


Unfortunately haven't tube fed although I understand how it's done, I've studied the videos on here many times. I'll not do it without being supervised first though. I'll ask at the vets if one if one of the nurses would be prepared to show me.
I have some PolyAid Cynthia sent me, I could syringe that into the end of her beak in the meantime, that may help keep her going until I can get help.

Terry,

That might be what this smell is, definitely only got it since she came. Thanks for those pictures, they are really thin bless them. I hope they did ok.

Janet


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Is there any 'grey' film on her poops?


Are her Urates 'white' if 'watery' or 'clear' liquid..?


Or..?



Phil
l v[/QUOTE]

Hi Phil,

I only noticed her poop turning watery yesterday, I would say white watery. I have another one with clear watery and hers didn't look as clear as those do.

Just been to check, luckily I have had her on white towel all night. There is some white in the water, plenty of brown poop in there.

Janet


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Janet,



I would definitely suspect a Bacterial illness is vexing her...

As wellas that something isbotheringher Kidneys...which early Canker can do, slipping in as it can behind a Bacterial complaint.


What were her poops and urates like previously?


This appears to be a young adult...



What has her diet been so far in her being with you?


How long have you had her?




Phil
l v


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Phil,

I've had her 6 days now.

To be honest her poops and urates seemed good when she first came. Brown with white urates.

She's been on pigeon mix, and conditioning mix, (the one with an aniseed smell). Also popped her some sunflower hearts and yesterday some hemp seeds, and a few crushed peanuts.

She is quite different to the other ferals. She has feathered feet and green eyes and her head is longer and flat compared to theirs. It does make me wonder if she wasn't always out in the wild, and then there's this whistle that she does as opposed to any usual pigeon like call.

Her history is a bit of a mystery really.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

The whistle could be part of an infection, a couple of years ago our Piglet started giving a little "whooping" whistle, the vet thought it might be a Corynebacterium infection and he was treated with Baytril. John and I were terrified because he warned us that sometimes an abscess forms in the windpipe which can cause instant death, but Piglet was fine.

He also said that this was a "free floating bacterium", one that he hadn't caught from a bird host. His mate, Chico, was put on baytril as a precaution although the vet didn't think she was at risk.

Polyaid (a complete food that is given in very small quantities to stop sick birds from starving) would be great. I used to give that to My Little Angel and also allow her to top up on as much seed as she wanted. The Poly Aid takes up very little room in the crop, so iyt wo't stop her eating seed if she wants to.

I will send you some Tylan today so that you have another antibiotic in your armoury. Unfortunately I have run out of Synulox, but I will try to get some on my next visit to the surgery.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Have given Tweet some Polyaid and started her on Baytril.

I think this squeak maybe respiratory after all as I could hear it faintly as I gave her the Polyaid.
Her normal breathing isn't noisey though.
I just gave her a treat of more hemp seeds and I could hear her whistling from the next room. It must be as she's eating them so fast her breathing is affected.

She is an absolute darling, I hope she pulls through this.

Thanks in advance for the meds. Would this Tylan be in preference to Baytril for this type of problem?

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

I think Baytril is appropriate. I just want you to have an additional antibiotic to hand. There is a problem, though, the dosage is for a treating a flock in water and needs to be reduced to a fraction for a single pigeon's water...a task for Pidgey! 

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> There is a problem, though, the dosage is for a treating a flock in water and needs to be reduced to a fraction for a single pigeon's water...a task for Pidgey!
> 
> Cynthia


Most definitely, I'd run out of fingers and toes trying to work that one out !!


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What's the weight of the bird and the concentration of the Baytril?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry Pidgey,
I fell asleep and missed your question.

The bird's 250 gms. Baytril is 2.5 %. (liquid).

It's weight doesn't seem too low considering how thin she is, she must have heavy feathers ! 

Cynthia's sending me some new meds, Tylan, I think that's the one she says is for flock usage and would need your brain to work out the dosage.
I'll need to ask her what the concentration details are for you first though.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I make the Baytril dosage 0.2 mls. That is at the highest of the dosage range - 20 mg per kilo.

You can give it once a day.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks Cynthia,

Do we need to get Pidgey's brain on the dilutions for the Tylan as you said that comes for flock usage. I'd never be confident that I'd calculated it correctly for a single dose.
Is that in tablet form or liquid?

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Concur on the Baytril.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I took Tweet to the vets today as I was taking Charlie, sneaked her in too.

He thinks the whistle is probably respiratory too and said to give her 10 days on Baytril, 0.2mls twice a day. She's still eating ok, I'll weigh her tomorrow and see if she's improving. Tonight when she had her treat of Hemp I didn't hear her whistling, fingers crossed. 

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

OK, I have posted you a satchet of Tylan, here is the problem for Pidgie to help us with.

Using a kitchen measure I weighed 1/4 teaspoon of Tylan on the scales that Cristina very kindly provided. That weighed 0.8 grams, which I gather is 800mg.

According to the only formulary that I could find on line that mentioned pigeons, the dose for a racing pigeon is 50mg per day in a divided dose...25mg twice a day. So, if the average weight for a racing pigeon is 400gm, then it would be about 6mg per 100 gms.

It is a soluble powder, so will have to be mixed in water into a solution to get a dose that is small enough. I think that by laying out 1/4 teaspoon and quartering that, we could more or less acurately get 200mg. For a 300 gm pigeon that would have to be reduced to 18mg....(?)

So, the question for Pidgey.

First are my calculations correct? Do the Formulary recommendations agree with the Avian Medicine formulary?

Second, how much water would the 200mg have to be mixed with, and how much of the solution should be given per 100gms of pigeon?

Do you think that the solution once mixed would last for a day or longer?


This is some of the information that I found:

From Amazon
Product Description

Tylan Soluble Powder is a water soluble product contains 100gm Tylosin Tartrate/container that is labeled for chickens and turkeys to treat chronic respiratory disease 

Name: Tylosin *(Tylan, Tylocine) For racing pigeons
Description: Tylosin is a macrolide antibiotic that is bacteriostatic against many gram + bacteria and mycoplasmas. 
Usage: Bacterial infections shown to be susceptible to tylosin. 
Adverse reactions: None that are common. 
Dosage: 50 mg/bird divided daily. 1500 - 3000 mg/ gallon for 7 - 14 days. 
Comments: Very effective against mycoplasma and against ornithose complex when combined with tetracyclines. 


From the Flying Vet's book: 
Tylosin - antibiotic with good activity against Mycoplasma and some bacteria. When combined with doxycycline , it is the current choice for treatment of respiratory airsac infection during racing. Less effective when given by itself because Mycoplasma, although often being the primary agent of airsac infection, usually occurs with secondary agents such as chlamydia and E Coli. Thecombination of Tylan with Doxycycline treats all infective agents involved. 

From Dr Wym Peters "Fit to Win"

Tylosin

Dosage rate 50 mg/kg (po)
Tylosin has been inherited from the poultry industry where it has been particularly successful against the mycoplasmas. The oral forms of the drug have been extensively used by racing pigeon fanciers to treat pigeons for conditions of the respiratory tract, particularly ornithosis and mixed infections. *It is not very soluble. Mix with warm water before adding to the rest of drinking water.* Tylosan is a bacteriostatic against gram+ bacteria and mycoplasmas.

Dosage 1g/1 litre

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks the Tylan arrived Saturday.

Sorry I must have missed this post, I'm just reading it over and over to try and get my brain working. We do need Pidgies help here. I'll study it again in the morning and do some calculations, if I can borrrow a brain! 

Is there a particular ailment that this is best suited for?

I have Tweet on Baytril twice a day as per the vet's instructions. She isn't doing too well and looks so depressed being kept in a carrier indoors, but I have nowhere else to put her while she's poorly. She still eats heartily but today she has developed a noisey breathing, sounds like she has a bad cold. She hates me giving her Polyaid by syringe but has at least had a little as back up.

Also her urates are still just liquid, no sign of improvement there, in fact when I change her bedding it is saturated but no smell to her now.
I've put probiotics in her drinking water. Anything else I can give her to see if I can improve her urates?

I mentioned the urate problem to the vet, as Charlie has a similar problem. He was a bit dismissive about it saying 'well you have to decide how far to go with these things if they've got kidney problems'. So I have to hope that the Baytril helps her out as he offered nothing else.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

The Tylan is what my vet prescribed for mycoplasmosis. I included everything that I could find about it in the post, I think it might be wise to start that tomorrow if she is breathing noisily, but I think that it works better in combination with Doxy.

If Pidgey is unavailable we can both take a shot at working it out and see if we agree. My problem is doing a lot of calculations at the same time, I get very confused...but now that it is half done (correctly I hope) I can probably complete it. The scales that Cristina sent me have been so useful!

What I noticed with Tylan is that it didn't dissolve well, one of the reference sources I used suggested diluting it in warm water first.

Did Tweety start the noisy breathing this evening? Anastasia would breathe very noisily for a while in the evening and then stop.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I noticed her breathing when I first picked her up this morning. The noise is a bit spasmodic. She's still very puffed up too.
I have only been able to give her the Polyaid drop by drop in the end of her beak as she just clamps her beak tightly closed, compared to other birds. Really hates opening her mouth.

Janet


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Her breathing is still very 'wet' sounding today, mainly when I pick her up. Possibly as she's stressed and breaths faster.

Some good news, she's put on some weight. Was 250gms, today 275gms. and I'm even getting wing slapped which is new.

I have looked hard at the figures you gave last night Cynthia for calculating the dose for Tylan.

Have I got anywhere near.
This is the only way I can understand figures by breaking it right down: Is this right?
18mgs/300gm bird
9mgs/150gms
4.5mgs/ 75gms
6mgs/100gms
12mgs/200 gms
3mgs/50gms

So ie: a 275 gms bird would need 16.5 mgs of powder.
a 250 gms bird would need 15 mgs of powder.

If 1 gm = 1000mgs we need to calculate how much water based on 1gm/1 litre.

So it's a 1000mgs / litre....... 

I just can't get my head around this part now. I've just spent nearly two hours going back and forth to conversion tables on the internet and sorry I just can't do this, I haven't a clue.

If Pidgey isn't available I wondered if Cristina's husband John could help as he seemed to have an understanding of it when we had a query before.
I might email him, although I'm not sure if he's around in the week.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is this Tylan pure stuff or is it something like a 10% powder?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Pidgey,

I'll need to get Cynthia in on this I expect as she's used this before. I'll PM her in case she doesn't see this. Hang about!

All I have is a sample of the powder, I don't have the original packet with any details on.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Is this Tylan pure stuff or is it something like a 10% powder?


I am pretty sure it is the pure stuff, it is a 100g bottle and it says "Tylan (r)Soluble. Tylosan Tartrate Ph.Eur. Powder for oral solution. Equivalent to 
100g tylosan activity."

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks Cynthia, I have to keep shutting down my computer at the moment as it freezes when It's been logged on for too long. I'll keep my eye on the post and log back on when I need to reply.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If the Tylan is pure, then you can mix 1/4th of the 1/4 Teaspoon (level) in 14 mL of water and give 0.5 mL per dose, twice daily. If it's not pure, then you're going to have to put more powder in depending on how much different it is. If it were 50%, then you'd double the powder. If it were 33%, then triple.

Anyhow, the actual amount needed by the bird at the 50 mg/kg/daily with her current weight at 275 grams would be 50 X 0.275 = 13.75 mg daily. So, going on the theory that you can more-or-less accurately divvy up a quarter teaspoon (1/4th Tsp) up into four equal parts, and the 1/4th Teaspoon weighs the 800 mg, then you'd be looking at 200 / 13.75 = 14.5 daily doses. So, just call it 14, mix up that many milliliters of water with the 1/4th Teaspoon of medicine and give half of a milliliter, twice daily, and the batch will last one week.

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Oh boy, I read it and understand, then I read it again and lose it. I think I've actually got it now.

Thank you so so much Pidgey, I really, really appreciate you coming on to do that.

I will never get to grips with those sort of calculations. Just hope she doesn't put any weight on in the next week.

All the best

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Janet, I react the same way...too much information for my brain to cope with.
It tends to short circuit.

I think that: *you can mix 1/4th of the 1/4 Teaspoon (level) in 14 mL of water and give 0.5 mL per dose, twice daily* is what we were looking for!  I trust Pidgey to have done the math right.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's kind of a mad, mad, mad, mad world out there right now, and it's all getting a little overwhelming!

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Well Cynthia, that's what I took it as and did.

Today I had to go to the Jewellery Quarter in Birmingham to get some rings valued. It's a great place full of Jewellery manufacturers, retail shops, anything to do with gold/silver etc.
I had to kill an hour while this was being done and as I walked about I was thinking they must use scales to weigh out the gold dust and such like. I came across a small shop in a back alley that sold equipment for the manufacturers, so I popped in to ask and they had this lovely small digital scale that is ideal for weighing out powder in grms.
This is great as I can be accurate with my measuring now.

Pidgey I wish I could do something in return but sadly I know I can't. I hope things return to some sort of sanity soon. 

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Cristina's husband got me my scales at a joke shop! They are so useful, I could have done with something like this years ago.

I had to give a pigeon tylan, the closest I could get to m,easuring it was to use a teaspoon to empty the bottle, so at least I knew roughly how many grams a teaspoon held...that is as close as I could get.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> I had to give a pigeon tylan, the closest I could get to m,easuring it was to use a teaspoon to empty the bottle, so at least I knew roughly how many grams a teaspoon held...that is as close as I could get.
> 
> Cynthia


Very resourceful, but very time consuming Cynthia!

Don't let Pidgey see me asking you this, but it is 0.2gms ( this being the 1/4th of 1/4 teaspoon), to 14 mls of water isn't it?
I had it all sown up with the 1/4 teaspoon way but then I had to go back and do it the mathematical way now I've got the scales.

1/4 teaspoon is 0.8 gms, so 1/4th of 1/4 teaspoon must be 0.2gms, right?

I promise I'll go away and not bother anyone again after this.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That took me a lot of thought as I was in milligrams, but yes, 0.2 grams is 200 mg, the 1/4 of 1/4.

I hate these calculations they make my head swim. I am definitely lacking in numerical skills.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep!

Pidgey


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Oops, Pidgey saw!!!

I assume the 'Yep' was in answer to the calculation question as opposed to the 'Lacking in Numerical Skills' comment (or maybe both).

He'd be so right anyway if it was, that definitely makes two of us in that department Cynthia, but I've got to say I still think I surpass you.

Well Tweet is on the new meds thankfully, not a day too soon judging by the sneezing last night, thanks again both of you for all your help.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Don't forget to mix the Tylan in a little warm water first...the warm water to be taken from the water "allowance" in Pidgey's calculations. Otherwise it just floats on the top.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Cynthia,

Yes I did that fortunately as I remembered you saying it was hard to disolve.

She's not good though, she's now got a definite crackling sound in her chest today. I've emailed the vet who prescribed the Baytril last week.
He's just replied and said it might be a fungal or yeast infection or the bacteria/mycoplasma isn't responding to the Baytril, which I think is safe to say we know. He also says it could be the damage is too great.

He thinks it's more likely a fungal infection now but if advanced is very difficult to treat.

I'm taking her to see him tomorrow at another surgery where he's based just in case he can be more definite with the diagnosis.

I'm not sure how he'll be if I say I'm giving her Tylan, but he'll need to know if he's likely to give her some other meds to try for fungal won't I.

I do hope she can pull out of this, she's a lovely bird.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The crackles are called "rales" (I think that is pronounced "roules"). This is what Dr Wym Peters says in his book "fit to Win":



> Occasionally rales are heard in an adult pigeon....this is a serious condition and treatment must be attempted.
> 
> Injections of Lincospectin, penicillin/streptomycin and tetracyclins have all given satisfactory results. Some birds have remained chronic intermittent "gurglers" and on autopsy were found to have encapsulated air sacculitis.
> 
> In chronic cases treatment for aspergillosis using nystatin, has given very good results. To prevent relapses it is imperative that the treatment should continue for three weeks- even should the symptoms have disappeared in a few days.


Rapid Weight loss is also a symptom of aspergillosis.

Perhaps the vet that has already seen her could just issue a prescription for Nystatin without another consultation, it is a human medicine available at pharmacies.

Respiratory rales are also a symptom of ornithosis and secondary e-coli infections.

I am just abot to post the last of my Nystatin to Jayne, it isn't enough for a three week course, but you can have it if you like and I will try to get some more tomorrow when I take Kit Kit in for his innocculation.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> I am just abot to post the last of my Nystatin to Jayne, it isn't enough for a three week course, but you can have it if you like and I will try to get some more tomorrow when I take Kit Kit in for his innocculation.
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia,

That's very kind of you but if Jayne has need of it then please don't send it here. I'll talk to the vet about this possible diagnosis and see if he'll give me some first.
I'm not sure how far he'll be prepared to go with Tweet as he did say, when I asked him about Charlie's and her watery urates, that you have to decide how far you go for them.
I'll beg if needs be if he seems reluctant to treat her, but I don't know him so not sure how he'll respond.

I'm at my vets tomorrow with my dog. If this vet won't prescribe it I could try mine if all else fails. I feel we're racing against the clock with her at the moment.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Jayne has written to her doctor asking for Nystatin and I will ask my vet tomorrow. If I get some I will post it immediately.

Nystatin is often prescribed with antibiotics, so it won't harm her but could help.

I always fight all the way!

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

That's really kind of you. She's struggling to try and breath through her nose seems agitated and pacing about which is unusual for her, she normally snuggles down in my lap quite happily, so I know she's feeling bad now.

I've just put a bowl of hot water with a Karvol decongestant in her cupboard in the hope that it might help her tonight. I hope to goodness I can get something tomorrow to help her.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Janet, I don't think Karvol is OK for pigeons..is it a strong smelling product? Remember that fumes that are pleasant and salutary to us will be toxic to pigeons.

Perhaps you could try plain steam?

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,
I've just managed to get her into the vets this morning as she is so bad. Stopped eating since last night.

He was very thorough with her but without tests said he's is stabbing in the dark.

He's had second thoughts on fungal at present so I couldn't get Nystatin.

He kept commenting on how noisey her breathing was and said her lungs were 'full of muck'.
He was also going to discount Mycoplasma as she hadn't got runny eyes, but then luckily she sneezed and so he went back to that possibility.
He's put her on Docycycline which I'm pleased about as I read on here that it goes well with the Tylan which she's on now anyway.

He referred to a journal and then decided to give her an injection of Vitamin A as that can cause these symptoms aswell and gave me some Nutrobal supplement to put in her water.

He's now away for two weeks which is a blow, but he's written up some notes and told me to contact his assistant on monday if she isn't any better and then he will give Nystatin. He hesitated and nearly changed his mind and put her on it now, but then said he'd rather try one thing at a time.

I think he's hoping the Vitamin A will do the trick.

She's back in her cage but is sitting with her back to the door and the food and just panting.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Poor little thing! It is very difficult not to hit them with everything available when they are so ill.

Pity about the Nystatin, though. I don't think that would have clashed with the antibiotics.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I asked a couple if times if he'd try both meds but he said he'd rather try one at a time, I assume so he could see which one, if either worked.

She still hasn't gone near the food or water, so I'd better get the Polyaid ready, lucky my order arrived today.

Janet


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You would think he could have given you the nystatin anyway, and just had you try the other first. Then if it didn't work, to start the nystatin. But then, they would lose out on another vet appointment payment. Especially where he will be gone for a while. It makes you feel so helpless when they're sick like that. I hope he does a turn around soon.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Jay3,

You're so right, apart from the fact I'll have to pay again, he asked me where I lived, and so he knew I'd got over an hour round trip to go back.
I did suggest he give it to me to keep on standby, I'd hoped he would so even if she didn't end up needing it, I would then have it in stock for another emergency. It's so hard to get meds here that you have to grab every opportunity to obtain them.

Thanks for your good wishes for her aswell.

Janet


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't feel bad. We can't even find a vet around here for the birds. And they actually ask if it is a pet bird, or a "wild" bird. When I asked what difference it made, they told me that they were not licensed to treat "wild birds". Anyway, one place was booked up for three weeks ahead. Probably because it was a pigeon. Another place was booked up more than a week. Not much help if it is an emergency. Veterinarian snobs! People like that are idiots. They think that a pigeon is a "flying rat", yet they will actually treat a pet rat. Yours has you over a barrel, cause a vet that will treat a pigeon is not that easy to find. Hopefully, we'll eventually find one out here. Now I know why when we first got our pigeons, we asked a few other people who had them who they used for a vet. They just laughed and said they treated them themselves.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've just put Tweet to bed which I didn't think I'd be doing tonight after the day we've had.

I dread looking in on her first thing in case she hasn't got through the night. As usual this morning she was sitting at the back of her cage panting and her breathing was still as noisey. No sign of having eaten either. I had hand fed her some defrosted peas yesterday as she clamps her beak so tightly if I try and syringe her Polyaid and I'm scared of damaging her throat.
Her poops are now dark and tarry and amongst them were whole peas so I assume she had passed them.

I gave her the Doxycycline and Tylan and put her back. The next time I looked at her she was standing stretched up so tall, almost vertical and every so often she shook her whole body really hard from side to side. I paniced and grabbed her and took her outside as she looked as if she couldn't breath, I wanted to give her some fresh air. I decided to leave her outside in her cage and she settled a bit.

I emailed the vet but had no reply and decided to ring his assistant as I couldn't risk leaving Tweet all weekend like that.
Luckily she was there and I asked her to let me try the Fungal meds that the vet wouldn't give me. She said ok but they were closing in 30 minutes. I asked her to hold on and I drove like a maniac to get there, only to find as I was nearly there, the access road had been diverted, so I knew I wouldn't make it if I drove around the blockage. I dumped the car and decided to run. (I just don't do running, and was gasping for breath myself by the time I arrived three minutes after they were due to close).
Anyway she had waited and so I got the fungal meds. A bit worried as it says it's for cats with dermatophytosis.
It's not been licenced so I had to sign to say I took responsibility for the use.

I've given her two doses so far and am continuing with the Doxy and Tylan. I didn't ask if I should stop them but they are closed until Monday and I can't to ask before I start this new med.

This evening her breathing was 49 breaths a minute and she was snorting and gasping just the same.
I had to get some Polyaid into her even though this makes her worse but she hadn't eaten at all.

After a while I was wiping her beak as the Polyaid is very sticky and suddenly she stopped beathing, or so I thought. She had snuggled down into my hands and her eyes were closed. I think she had actually fallen asleep, and for the first time her breathing went quieter and slowed to 26 breaths a minute. I wasn't sure if she was about to pass away or sleeping as she must be exhausted from the effort of breathing.

When I disturbed her to put her back in her cage, it went higher again, up to 46 breaths, but at least it is quieter and she seems less agitated.

Her poops are just a watery mess but I hope I can keep getting a bit of Polyaid into her to keep her strength up. She keeps fighting bless her.

Janet


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry Tweet continues to have such a rough time of it, Janet. I know how very, very trying this is for you, and I commend you for sticking with it and making such a great effort to help Tweet including becoming a sprinter to get her meds today. I do hope she will be better in the morning, and I totally understand your trepidation about checking on her to see how she is in the morning. Here's hoping for an encouraging update in the morning.

Terry


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I was so hopeful this morning that she was slightly better, it did seem so.
I gave her the fungal meds first thing and left her about half an hour before going to clean and feed her.
It was amazing the difference in her breathing. Within half an hour of giving her the meds she had calmed down and was a lot quieter although still breathing about 45 per minute.
She was calmer aswell while I syringed her some polyaid. As it was such a lovely day I put her in a cage in the sun, and she stretched her wings a bit and sunbathed, having the odd drink of water, but still no food.

Then tonight when I tried to feed her again, she started her wet breathing and was quite agitated, constantly trying to get away.
This time the breathing didn't clear after a while like yesterday and this morning.

I'm really worried about the fact anything she has just goes through her immediately.
She was passing clear water this afternoon, and after this evenings Polyaid, I've just cleaned her towelling and it is soaking wet with a slight green slime.

What on earth can I give her to try and help her digestion?
I put some Potent Brew in her Polyaid as it said it can be mixed with this.

Also I wonder is she getting the benefit of the medications or would they be just going through aswell?

I don't know what else to do for her.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

Most of the Poly Aid should be absorbed, it is low residue. I wish that there was something else I could add, or some way I could help her. But beyond the Potent Brew in the Poly Aid (I also used that combination for My Little Angel, who arrived with slimy green diarrhoea) there is only the Nystatin...

I am glad that she spent a happy day though, the wing stretches are precious when they are ill.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Not a good day at all for a Tweet. She has gone really downhill again and looks so tired and drained.
Her breathing has been fast but shallower, and still congested.

I fed her some Polyaid but she gets so stressed and struggles so I give her big rests inbetween doses. I also tried a few peas and bread dipped in Polyaid.

She just passed water all day until tonight, and then green tar again.

I phoned the vet as I was wondering whether the improvement I saw Sunday was due to the anti-fungal. She thought it was probably a coincidence and didn't expect an improvement yet. She said to keep feeding her but not to worry about the amount if she's stressed as long as she has something.

Earlier this evening I had her in my hands and she was just lying down dozing with only one eye closed. She just laid down flat when I put her back in her cage aswell.

I've just been back to give her some Tylan and her chest area is all wet.
She then started this stretching of her neck and getting very agitated and almost convulsing, as if there was something stuck or having trouble swallowing.
Every so often she would relax and lie down quietly in my hands but with her neck pulled back, then suddenly stand up and convulse again. Her breathing had gone quieter though.

I suddenly remembered something I had been reading today in Philodice's Pigeon Care Booklet. I've been back to read it again and am now very worried for Tweet.

Philodice had an instance where she had two birds go sick and die unexpectedly. The symptoms where described as:
'The birds showed signs of apparent pain or discomfort in the crop. Sitting with their heads very erect and stretched up high. An inability to sit in a relaxed position. Stopped eating, and despite being medicated and fed, expired within days'.
She had a necropsy done and it came back showing signs of tissue damage and possible rupture in the crop. ( I wonder if Tweet's wet chest is due to this).
Her bird had severe fungal infection of the crop, called 'mucor' class infection. The organism was called Zygomyces, environmental fungas.

She investigated thoroughly and found mold and fungas growing in some grit she had bought.
The worrying thing is they said that this is not a typical sort of fungas and drugs like Nystatin are useless against it. In fact she says that sometimes treating with this can cause more damage. It's hard now to know whether I am doing her more harm by carrying on with the anti-fungal meds, I wish I knew.

As she's a rescue bird, I don't know where Tweet came from but where I found her at the 'sanctuary', the enclosure she was in has a shed with a very leaky roof and the floor is always wet. I clean out the damp food when i go in but often the seeds have germinated on the floor through it being damp. It stands a very good chance she has eaten mouldy food there.

Janet


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Janet,

I'm sorry Tweet continues to have such a difficult time. If there is a rupture/tear/hole in the crop, I think you would have discovered it by now. Guess it's possible that it could have just happened, but a very close exam on the neck and chest area should allow you to find it if it's there.

Terry


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,
I've looked and I don't think there's a tear in her crop but there is definitely something terribly wrong inside. She has been fairly stable all day but tonight, like yesterday she has started this awful stretching of her neck and acting like she's got something stuck.

She did quite well this morning and took 8mls of Polyaid. It is a real battle to get her to open her mouth and so I have to give her a long spell inbetween to calm her breathing down. If I could crop feed it would be better then I could get it down on one go. The vet said not to worry too much about the amount as long as she had something.

This evening she was quite calm and I had to give her the Tylan and Fungal meds which unfortunately are both liquid.
A soon as I've given it to her she looked as if she can't swallow and starts to stand bolt upright, almost pushing backwards so she's sitting flat on her legs.
If I hold her eventually she calms down and settles in my hands, her eyes keep closing, then all of a sudden she jerks up and it starts all over again.







This is how she stands when she's having one of these turns.

Has anyone had anything like this before, it may be the result of a fungal infection as Philodice described. If so is there any hope she'll be able to recover, I hate to see her suffering like this but am scared to not see the meds through in case they do help in the end.
I'm beginning to wonder if I'm being cruel keeping her going but she's still here some how.

Janet


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Janet,

I saw a photo of that position a couple of days ago, but I can't remember in what context. It was probably in levi's book...I will have a little browse.

The swallowing and stretching of the neck can be a sign of canker, but other blockages would probably have the same effect.

What you could do is shine a pen light down her throat in the dark...the effect should be rather like candling eggs or holding hour hand over a torch.... You might be able to see if there are any blockages. 

Cynthia


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

She's just died in my hands, I'm just broken hearted.

I gave her the fungal meds earlier and was amazed at how quietly she was breathing, I really thought she was taking a turn for the better. I put her back in her cage while I had to go out and then came back to give her the Doxycycline tablets and some feed.

She was standing fairly erect in her cage but when I put her on my lap she was relaxed and breathing noiselessly and much slower than the last few days. The only thing I noticed were her eyes were half closed.

I opened her mouth and popped the tablet in and she stretched her neck and died.

I can't tell you how terrible I feel, she did seem better, I can't believe she's gone so quickly.

Thank you so much for your help, I couldn't have been willing her on any more to make it, she was adorable. God Bless her little soul.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm soooooo sorry. You tried so hard to help this little one, and it hurts so much when we lose the battle. You did everything you could, but sometimes, it just isn't enough. At least she is at peace now. No more struggling. Sorry.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

amyable said:


> This is how she stands when she's having one of these turns.
> 
> * *Has anyone had anything like this before*, it may be the result of a fungal infection as Philodice described.
> 
> Janet


I am sorry to hear he has passed away, Janet.

* The photo below shows two pigeons with a similar stance as the one in your picture. The one on the left showed up at Kim's (KIPPY) place & the one on the right showed up at my place two and a half years later.

Although the one I had was't actually sitting he reminded me of the one Kim had.

I had referred to these birds as 'Penguin Pigeons' as they reminded me of a penguin's stance.

Sadly, both passed away as well.

Cindy


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Cindy,

I have read about the penguin posture, but have never seen an illustration of it. I do wish we had a photographic reference section that new rescuers were able to find quickly, it would really help them.

This is what Dr Colin Walker says in his book Fit to Win, it is in the canker chapter but could apply to anything that causes crop and/or proventricular pain:

'Penguin Posture' - Associated with proventricular (glandular stomach) and crop pain. Birds will lean back on their tails and gulp. Noticed particularly when eating and drinking.

I found the photo in The Pigeon, that was an excited cock with ataxia.

I am so sorry that we weren't able to save little Tweet...she had been treated for canker..

Cynthia


----------



## rainbows (Aug 19, 2008)

Amyable, I do hope you get a necropsy of this poor pigeon. Perhaps we could finally know what is causing this posture. I'm sorry for the loss but this little dear might leave us an answer for the future.


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you Cindy for those pictures, those poor birds. That is exactly how she was yesterday. Although this morning, having had a quiet night she wasn't so bad. She used to get more like this by the evening.

Did you ever know what they passed from in the end?

I am really sad about losing her as she was just the sort of pigeon that would have been a pet and I had got too attached to her. Poor Cynthia and Jayne have really helped me over this morning but I just find this one very hard to take.

Janet


----------



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> I have read about the penguin posture, but have never seen an illustration of it. I do wish we had a photographic reference section that new rescuers were able to find quickly, it would really help them.
> 
> ...


Hi Cynthia,

This posture was so obviously due to the pain in her crop, and exactly as you've quoted, she pushed back and was leaning hard on her tail gulping. I think I might have told you on the phone, last night I saw her take a drink and straight away she pulled back, so it definitely aggravated things.

She was drinking quite a lot although not eating for the last four days.

I do want to know what happened to her and in case, heaven forbid I come across it again.

Janet


----------

