# found pigeon with swollen crop..what to do????



## lilbabies17 (Jul 16, 2005)

this past week i have found 2 pigeons that needed my help..the first one had passed away i ran out of time before i could really help it..the one i found today'has a swollen crop and its poops are greenish..i have it out side in my backyard..its in a box and the temp out there is nice..i tried to feed it a soup phil on here told me about. thats when i noticed the crop still being full..so i didnt feed it and came on here... it seems like maybe it still has a chance i just dont know what to do now..i have been trying to read on here but im getting impatient cause i dont want it to die..what do i do????? please somebody respond asap! i feel like snow white sometimes but i cant deal with things dying on me..the bird looks like it might be an adolecent..has a few traces of orange down on its head but not sure time frames for when it falls off...thanks again..carin/  las vegas...


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## lilbabies17 (Jul 16, 2005)

*full crop and cant fly???*

just went outside and notices the bird was out of his box. when i tried to put him back i noticed he tried to fly and couldnt..now im really confussed..please someone help...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, your bird is probably sick with something and needs medical help. The fact that his crop is still full may mean that he has a candida infection. Do you know how to get in touch with Phil (he's in your town)?

I had a deja vu and researched your past posts and see that you've already met and used Phil so you've got his phone number. He's going to be your best bet.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

For now, try to empty the crop. 
Give him water, as much as you can, every 30 minutes five him a syringe full of water, you can add a drop of olive oil in the water for the first syringe.
Try that and let us know.
When the crop is empty we take it from there.
Also, take the bird inside and put a heating pad wraped in a towel in his box, if you have no heating pad, put warm water in a bottle, wrap it in a towel and pout it next to the baby.

Reti


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## lilbabies17 (Jul 16, 2005)

*how do you empty a crop???*

not sure how to do this...i dont want to hurt him..is there a past thread or can someone please explain...trying to get intouch with phil..waiting for a responce..he seems busy today i havent seen him on here yet....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Carin, 


3:30 now in the afternoon...

I just wrote you back...!

I am here, working...so, call me, being him over...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil keeps odd hours and he DOES have to work for a living just like most of us. 

Emptying a crop is tricky. If you don't do it right, you can aspirate the bird. That means that it can breathe in some of the crop contents into the airways and end up either dying on the spot, getting pneumonia and dying later or just get bad sick and slowly pull out of it. I'd still wait for awhile and keep trying to get a hold of Phil.

I've never had to empty a crop and wouldn't trust myself to do it or explain it so if it really becomes necessary, you'll need to ask Reti or one of the others for a detailed description.

Oh, Phil, there you are! 'Bout d*** time!

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Lilbabies17,
it would be much easier for you and for us if you keep on replying to one post rather than starting a new thread every time you post.
Scroll down the thread and you will see the reply button. That way it will be easier for everyone to follow your thread.

Thank you.

Reti


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## lilbabies17 (Jul 16, 2005)

*Update*

sorry about the thread thing..i will post on one from now on..i was just a little worried at that time..thank you all again for your help! i took him over to phil who is the kindest person in the world!!! you guys are wonderful on here, so helpful!! THANKS AGAIN...lets hope this little guy makes a fast recovery!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well done! Phil .. thank you yet again!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh hell, I posted a nice medium long entry here a couple hours ago, with a link to fresh images of the Bird, ad now that I am checking on it, there is nothing there.

The effort DID crash my computer three times, and I guess the third one got me in edit mode so it never made it to post...


...sigh...

Okay, I will begin anew!


Now, okay...tis a late adolescent Pigeon, whose Crop is quite distended and 'saggy' looking.

After assorted Wing-Chops and objections, I gave him more of the tour, and seeing the comfort and ambiance of the other free-roving Birds, he seemd to ease up some, and now we have made friends, at least to where he will allow me to do gentle Crop Massages or 'Floaty Bird' stuff. 

I mixed two Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water, and filled a little bowl for him set into his Cage.

He has not drank yet.


Crop feels like there is some content and it feels unusually 'low' and heavy somehow. Mostly from there up, it feels like gas or liquid maybe.

He is doing a lot of sort of swalliwing motions where his Crop moves 'up' then down again like a vaudville clown belly...

There seems to be a texture one would expect of medium sized Seeds at the lowest sag of their Crop. But it does feel 'heavy' to me somehow, almost like what Lead or Steel shot would feel like so far as my imagining...

I do not have a Catheter of sifficient interior diameter to suction out anything much for Crop contents, but tomorrow I shall see about getting one around the corner here where there is a mded supply place that has them.

Various ( seven or eight so far) poops are yellow-green wettish, some broken-snake kind, some more Raisen-like...Vent is clear and surrounding Feathers clean.

Bird has no noticable odor...

I popped a 'Spartrix' down his gullet for hood measure...

He is standing and sleeping two-legged stance presently...

Images at :

http://community.webshots.com/album/457675671YUDScJ


Ideas? - suggesteions?

Does this look like something you have delt with before?


Thanks all...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think I will see about visiting my Veterinarian tomorrow with this one...

Maybe he has some whopptie-do Lavage-Suction deal to just get whatever is in there "out"...if not, I will see what I can do...

Since I have never done this, what is the proceedure if it does fall to me?


If the Crop presently contains liquid, of course, suction that out...

Then, introduce reasonable amounts of mild Saline? And suction THAT out after some gentla massages as will not cause the liquids to go up to huigh or anything...

And, if possible, employ the largest interior diameter Catheter that will reasaonabley fit through his esophagal aperature without straining it unduely?

If he'd eaten say whole Corn, and it is hydrated, then that is really awefully big Seeds to try getting out with a Catheter! Too big I think...so...

Anyway, trying to think...

If it IS "Lead Shot" or Steel Shot or BeeBees or something ( Hey, I could try a Magnet...I will look for one soon as I finish this missive...)

Then those surely would be good to get out of there I think...

Till next...

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...just about 3:00 A.M. and beddie-bye time for all good little Beaks, and for your's truely too...

Got him to sip a few dainty sips of his Vinegar-Water but thats about it for that...more decent looking poops, some larger than Raisens...

I am worried this may be a rupture of his Crop...

Has ayone ever heard of such a thing?

It is sitting too 'low' and heavy there...

Found a small Magnet, tried it against their lower Crop area...but I can not tell for sure it is pulling at all...

Nighty-night...

Wish us luck...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A magnet would only have an effect on steel shot. BB's and lead wouldn't be attracted. I was talking with my vet two days ago and he said a feral pigeon was brought in that had damaged its crop in such a way that it had formed some kind of false pouch that he had to clip off and remove or something like that.

You might should try spreading the feathers and checking the color of the skin down there to see if you can determine what's hanging in there. You can use rubbing alcohol to help render the skin more translucent.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Thanks for the ideas..!

I did examine the appearance of the skin of the Crop area, all tolled, and it appears normal pinkish and nice..no sign of bruising or any oddness...

I do not have any Rubbing Alcohol but if I have time I will get some and try that and try also a strong Flashlight to see if I may get a mite more transclucense.

Made an appointment with the pardner of the Vet I like, and he appearently has seen many things through the years Birdwise also, so I will go visit him later today with young Bird and his Crop concerns.

Crop DOES look 'better' today so far, much less distended, much less 'saggy' looking and low...plenty of decent poops made during the night...eyes seem brighter than last night. He appears to have drank some of his Vinegar Water ( 1/2 of an inch worth in a three inch diameter Bowl )...

I had set up a Heating Pad with a light towell on it in half his Cage, and about half the night's poops are on that, so, I guess he liked the warmth...

Poops are not usual for Birds I am used to - green and light yellowish and chunky-fibery looking...well enough formed, not watery or snakey...but looking like globs of chewed vegetable matter kind of...some poops are small, some quite large, almost all having the same look and texture...

He may well have eaten something not-so-good...

I have not offered any food yet...


Till next...

Thank you...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> I mixed two Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water, and filled a little bowl for him set into his Cage.
> 
> Ideas? - suggesteions?


Sorry....to interrupt... but I need to ask you why are you using 2 Tablesp. of ACV when the standard dosage is 1 tablesp? 

Have you tried some colloidal silver down his throat for infection?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tressa,


I thought the standard was 'One to Two'...so I have tended to use 'two'...

Uhhhhh....nope, have not done any Colloidal Silver down the gullet...but could do.

My day was hectic and slid sideways somewhat, but did get him to the Vet, poos in the travel box looked better...

Vet did an exam and a swab, did a fast lab check and said it is Candida.

He did not think the crop was ruptured but we did talk about how that can happen.

Crop IS emptying slowly and poops are getting made...so, that is definitely good. Less liquid seems to be present now, but still there is a pretty good amount of Seeds or something in there awaiting to pass to the rest of their digestive proceedures...

I will water down the Vinegar water then.

Vet gave me some Nystatin, said may as well administer that twice-a-day, and continue to let him have the ACV-Water for drinking...

Somehow, on way short sleep and too much hectic today, I can not find the Nystatin and may have dropped it accidentally while helping a neighbor push a stalled Car when I got home and was carrying it in with my nnotebook after bringing the Bird back in and setting him into his Cage...I have looked EVERYWHERE ! and I remember getting it out of the Van with my Notebook..so...hmmmmmm...

This is a large youngster and he seems to have a voluminous Crop...might have stretched it from previous gorgeings, as well as the Candida in effect can lax the muscle tone there...but it is less 'saggy' today and much less distended.

I intend to tube feed him some Baby-type nutrituous 'Soup' in a little while...this is the first chance I have had in many hours to sit down...!

Thanks...!

 

Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmmm...I am a little worried.

I waited on feeding him, till his Crop had emptied more...and wishing for a little more time for the Vinegar Water to do it's influece on the Candida...many smallish green-broken-rope poops, so, old Crop things were going through...

Fed him earlier tonight, some Baby-Soup and that went well, but...

The formerly bloated and distended Crop that had so much in it, now, has what one could call a lump, about like there were a smaller size Pecan there inside...just above the Keel bone. Now too, the skin 'there' is not the same color as his skin around it...it is yellowish-off white, instead of pinkish...

Too, there is a pale grey narrow triangle of color in the center of that area...

I am worried this may be another of these abcesses we have confronted off and on here these recent months...

Can Candida form an abcess?

I will try and get some images tomorrow...

I do not know if the Vets I like are even open tomorrow...in fact, I think not.

Should I consider to begin putting him on Baytril...? First thing tomorrow?

Any ideas?

He has of course his 'Vinegar Water', of which he had drank one full little bowl so far all tolled...about what a Bird of his size would drink in a little over a day...or two days, as may be.

He seems to be feeling somewhat better, and stands on one leg now instead of two...

He has his Heating Pad to elect if he wants to be on it...


I am tired now...

And to bed...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Yes, it does sound like it could abscess but only time will tell. You're just going to have to keep a real close eye on it. You might consider snipping the local feathers short with scissors to make that easier.

I would put him on Baytril (if you can keep yourself from drinking it all  ) and just wait and see. If things start getting worse and you can't get a vet let us know.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


I mean, not so much 'could' abcess, but I fear IS an abcess...it is 'suspicous' anyway...

Certainly time will tell...

Can Candida localize ito an abcess do you suppose?

(My D drive is still not working, so the CeeDee I have of Avia Medicine info remais inaccessable for now but I am waiting to get with a computer fellow to ammend that...)

There is this localised 'knot' or lump which is just at the top of his keel, low to the Crop proper and half 'in' and half protuberant...normally, even with food in their Crop, this area will push in with light pressure, and with him, it is firm and does not push in, but remains prominent. Crop is about empty on each side of it, so now there is just that odd central protrusion there...with the Crop kind of going 'in' and lax on each side and above it.

I did do gentle Crop Massages off and on which he sometimes seemed to appreciate and sometimes seemd a little indignant about...Lol...but I did do them when he was amenible, and mostly he was, and I did not put particular pressure on this part, feeling it was suspicious, but of course the whole Crop recieved multiple gentle massages which included this area idirerectly...or directly but quite getly...)

Otherwise the Crop as such seems much much better now...or at least has emptied from it's former overfull situation.

But I do not like this lump being there like this.

None of the other occasions of slow-Crop that I have had ( not that many ) had anything like this...nor did any have so low and saggy a Crop when they were suffering from the Crop stasis or slow Crop.

Now, since the Baytril I have is intended to mix with his Water...

And his Water is the Vineegar-Water...

Is this a problem?

Can I mix them like that do you think?

Or, should I elect to adminster the Baytril via injection? (Which I have never done before...that is, I have never given an injection before...)

Or, I could administer his Baytril twice-a-day as an addition to the actual amount of food I can feed him via ( the soft, silicone Catheter of ) Tube feeds directly into his Crop...while maybe letting him have access to Seeds again also? That is, carefully monitoring him to see if indeed they do process in something like a normal time?

Would that be a problem for him do you think? If his daily dose of Baytril were divided into to administrations into his Crop with his Baby-Soup formula? ( Even though he is a late juvenile and full grown pretty much...) While letting him have access to Seeds and Grit also off and on, set the Seed Bowl in there, note if he seems to eat or not, and, if he does eat, let him eat oly moderately?

I might be able to get with my Vet's parder today...I am waiting for a call back from their clinic...

If so, I will get more Nystatin, seening as I somehow LOST the little zip-lock bag containig it and the syringes they gave me...damn! How mysterious!


Thanks pal...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'd actually dose the Baytril by its weight according to the formulary. That's 15 mg/kg, twice a day. What does this bird weigh? Incidentally, to simplify things, 1000 milligrams is the same thing as 1 cc. So, 15 mg = 0.015 cc's. Now, since you're running a 10% solution, that means that 15 mg = 0.15 cc's. If you have a 1 cc syringe, you can study the 1/10th marks on the side and meter in 1 -1/2 of those and you've got enough to dose a one kilogram bird for its morning or evening dose. More likely, this bird weighs 1/4 kg so that same amount would be four doses: two doses per day for two days. So, you could shoot that little bit in a 3 cc syringe, put in the plunger, suck enough water in to make 2 cc's total; pull the plunger back to give it a big bubble so that you can shake it for mixing; point it straight up and depress the plunger til you've got the air out; and, voila', you've got a syringe with two days worth of individual dosing @ 0.5 cc's/dose and no more. Just shoot that down the gullet and don't bother with any needles.

If the right amount of stuff is coming out of the back end of the bird commensurate with what's going in the front end, and what's going in the front end is enough to maintain the bird's weight, then at least we're stable. Without doing lab, I'd walk the bird through the meds to take care of the usual suspects (coccidiosis, canker and worms) besides the Baytril.

Candidiasis usually renders the crop and esophagus into a "Turkish towel" or thickened Terry Cloth like substance. Normally, the crop is a thin, almost translucent membrane and it really gets thick with candida. It shouldn't present as a hardened knot.

Personally, this sounds more like the one that my vet told me he'd seen a couple of weeks ago where a pigeon had ruptured its own crop. Probably an impact on a sharp object while the crop was loaded. It had formed a pouch for the spilled contents that the vet simply removed and stitched it up. Sounds bad, doesn't it? After what I've been through lately, it wouldn't bother me at all anymore. Anyhow, you're just going to need to keep an eye on it.

Here's a picture of a crop burn, how it scabbed to the outer skin eventually and how that was finally (better later than sooner in such a case) removed to allow for surgical closure:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/459385698/459398420kUyvDs

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 

Thanks so much...!

Was able to talk briefly on the 'phone with my 2nd Vet fellow...anyway, got some Nystatin from him that he left with his receptionist for me to pick up...he says it sounds like it may be an abcess and to keep an eye on it and so on, as it might be migrating to break through the skin there, which is what it is looking like to me...

And it if starts to spit the skin there, then it would be a good idea to address it with a Surgical proceedure...but meanwhile, the "Baytril" to discourage it from opportuning any farther.

Thanks for doing the dosage math there for me...! I will abide thusly.

I forgot to ask him if any concerns about the Nystatin/Baytril concurrance...

Bird seemed uninterested in Seeds earlier, but I just looked at him now and he is pecking in a normal happy lookig way...so...

I will still feed via Catheter, enough to hold him decently in small meals now and then with easily rapidly digestibles.

Lost my "iexplore.exe" thing oweig to an error of judgement dealing with an anti-viris/spyuware programme, so can not click on any urls for now...am trying to get with my computer pal to reinstall Windows, and or to fix the D-Drive to use the Windows CD I do have, to reinstall, which should help that and some other probs...so, cannot access your link images now.

Bird is definitely feeling much better than when I got him...the ACV seems to be a good address for the Candida, but I will also get the Nystatin into the act.

210 grammes...and definitely feels "light" for his size...

More or less shy of 1/4th of a Kilo then, just as you proposed...so...


Till next...

Thanks Pidgey!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Bird is definitely feeling much better than when I got him...the ACV seems to be a good address for the Candida, but I will also get the Nystatin into the act.


Hi Phil,

Glad the bird is doing better. You can also ward off any candida, sour crop, etc. with a couple of drops colloidal silver in the formula or in the water bowl.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Tressa, 


I will so also then...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## darmar (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi Phil,

Just reading this thread to learn more...you are doing such a great job with this bird. I'm getting quite a bit of perspective here...I'm caring for ONE injured feral and asking YOU for advice while you are emptying crops, running to the vet, answering questions on pigeons.com, and still finding time to help your neighbor push a stalled car! Wow. 

Wish we had a "Phil" here in New York. For some reason it is difficult to find a rehabber - 8 million people in this city, go figure!

Hope you got some descent sleep, and the bird is doing better. 

Take care,
Mary


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mary, Pidgey, all...


Thank you..!


Ohhhh, I did not empty the Crop but gambled it would empty once the Bird was drinking his Raw Apple Cider Vinegar-in-Water, which indeed it did...Crop has become normall looking form the outside now except for that 'lump' at the low end of it, just where the Keel ends.

This protuberance also has changed apearance as far as the skin covering it - now, the skin there is getting dry and yellow-powdery looking with a pale grey mid area...where, a couple days ago the skin covering it was the same as surrounding skin, pinkish and supple looking...now it is loking 'dead' and powdery and dry...so...

Have him on the Baytril in his tube feedings of Baby Soup, while also he is eating decently of Seeds and preening and so on. Poops are not looking so good to me, being broken small amounts of 'green snakes' and dry looking at that...nothing much for 'white' matter like poops should have...he is drinking plenty.

Otherwise, no sagging of the Crop now, just that lump which I will guess is migrating to the surface...

Pidgey, give me your advice please as to what additional meds might be useful here in addition to the Baytril...?

I am over tired and brain dead...

When feeding him his Baby soup via Catheter in the Crop...I did notice a little pale off-white or greyish-white 'thing' clinging to the edge of his trachea...the inner edge of it's aperature.

Could this be something Candida does? Or? what might it be do you suppose?

Canker maybe could do this...

Maybe I should dose him again for Canker...?

I have seen Canker 'things' clinging to the sides of their Throats of course, which will turn from 'yellow' to dull greyish-white once the meds have been doing their work...

I guess somehow, naively maybe, I tend to feel reluctant to give multiple meds concurrently, and I suppose this is something I need to get over...

Anyway, any input will be appreciated!


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, for starters, have you treated him for coccidiosis yet? I can't remember. Is the liquid of the poops a bit on the viscous/sticky side? Somewhere between Karo Syrup and water (closer to water)?

I'll look and see if I can find anything about the grayish exudate. Well, the book mentions a case where a group of neonates (parrots) exhibited whitish-gray plaques on the tongue, choana and pharynx that tested negative for trichomonads. Necropsy demonstrated an occlusional plaque in the syrinx and others in the lungs that contained a clear, yellow exudate that tested positive for trichomonads.

Conclusion: keep dosing the bird for canker. Rotate the meds.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Poops have not had any clear or viscous liquid attending...

Here is a link to an image I added to his Album just now, showing the appearance of his poops presently...pretty similar to their previous look - 


http://community.webshots.com/album/457675671YUDScJ


Maybe the little clingey greyish-white thing in the aperature of his trachea is a dieing colony of Trichomonads...I will give him a second 'Spartrix' for prudence sake...

I have seen Canker go from yellow squarish 'lumps' to this sort of greyish-white, but in their throats or around what where their tonsils would be...but I have not previously seen any such things in their tracheas.

Just so I can print it out (finally ), would you repeat your regimen for treating Coccidiosis?


Thanks Pidgey!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, that depends on what medicine you've got. Some of them are supposed to be a one-time shot. I use Corid (Amprolium) that goes in the water and you give them that for a week to clear it up completely. By the end of the week, it's often the case that you can't find a single oocyst in a fecal float.

I have no idea what medicine you've got.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 

I gotta go do a job outside of here today, but will be back tonight.

I will get whatever meds you think best for the Coccidiosis.

I do not have 'Corid' but I will either get some, or rummage through the Medicine Case later when I get back and let you know what I do have..,.or both.

'Bump-Bird' looks bright and interested in his environs and remains scolding if I reach into his Cage...

He is drinking more than a normal Bird his size would, and the excess is comeing out with the poops, but remaining in effect plain Water, it absorbs instantly into the paper-towells his Cage floor is lined with, so I was not noticeing it much earlier since it disappears that way.

I know they will do this when ill...flushing their system...

Till next..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Update - 



Well, what I took to be an abcess just above his Keel, seemed for a time to get larger, and was attended with the overlaying skin turning yellow and dry with a grey colored middle area...I thought the skin there was dieing.

I was expecting it to erupt through the skin there, and to start leaking or showing something on it's daily inspection, whereupon I would have taken him to the Vet for some ministerings/clean out and sutures or as may be.

But, having had him on 'Baytril' all this time so far, the seeming abcess did not continue to enlarge, but instead begain to diminish and today is not palpable, unless it has become soft from water getting into it...but some smaller area of yellow skin remains as does it's grey central area.

Now, also, initially fearing Candida, I had him on his "ACV" Water untill a couple days ago, and his initial inflated slow-Crop seemed to return to nomal but for the seeming abcess at the Crop's bottom area just at the top of the Keel...

Three days ago, supposeing that the Candida may have been abated and ceased, I then switched him to have water with 'Citromed' in it instead, thinking this would help matters also, in concurrance with the Baytril.

Originally he was eating a little on his own, but mostly just scattering Seeds. Poops have been sparce and appearing like thing pale green broken 'Ropes'.

He has the whole time been a normal enough acting Bird in every other way, standing on one leg, preening, wing slapping the heck out of me when I want to inspect him or feed him...he is in fact THE most rapid and energetic wing Slapper I have ever seen! he will slap me five times in a fraction of a second, instead of the usualy one or two wacks one usually gets...

He drinks twice what any other Bird his size would drink in a day, and some of the water comes out looking just like water, with the poops.

I was hopeing he would eat more on his own, but meanwhile I have been feeding him via a very sost silicone Satheter on a Syringe, and this has kept him going.

Yesterday, I decided to give him in addition, some several kernals of whole dried Pop Corn, and about five small whole raw Peanuts. did this as 'Seed-Pop' putting them into his Beak so he swallowed them.

After this, he made numerous wierd sideways motions with his upper Crop area, and many odd head motions also, of a moveing his neck side to side.

I realized something was not going well there with his esophagus or upper Crop area.

Today I am worried feeding him some whole Seeds was an error of judgement to have done - his Crop has not emptied from last nights feeding of five or six of each of small Peanuts and PopCorn, from our into the Beak Seed-Pops, and, his Crop feels full and mushy today. Not hanging 'low' as it originally did, but seeming moderately full.

I am worried one of the Peanuts has clogged him up.

Some very good almost normal looking poop-raisens from overnight, the first ever, but no new poops all day.

I did some gently and lengthly Crop Massages today hopeing it may help him pass the peanut(s) if that IS the problem. The largest of the Peanuts was only about 5/16ths of an Inch long, in effect the smallest sizes of them, so hardly a very large Seed, but something now seems wrong with how his Crop has not emtied from last night's late supper.


Anyway...

Ideas?

What do you think?


Phil
Worried in Las Vegas...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Doesn't sound too good. If it goes too long, he's going to need that crop evacuated and that may require surgery. It would be a weekend, wouldn't it? 

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Check the thread by pigeonpoo, "baby stopped eating".

Interestingly enough, pigeonpoo just evacuated the youngsters crop.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, if you can get the bird to throw up, that'd be wonderful.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...hmmmm...

Crop seems empty today!

Oh yippeeee!

Anyway, some long well formed green snakes for poo...with some white going on also.

fed him a good slug of Baby-Formula with added suppliments, to which he has come to acquiesce nicely.

He seems more active today than so far, climbing the sides of his cage and doing some mild wing flap excercises.

I dunno...

I will just keep on with what I have been doing I guess, but no more 'peanuts'!

Maybe up his rations of Baby formula...see if I can get some weight on him.

200 Grammes on the Scale, and steady at that I think from the beginning. has not lost any weight nor gained any, but I have not been feeding him much, oweing to worries about his Crop and ajacent abcess. I will up the chow I think now.

I just took him out,and in a moment of opportunity he took off and is now flying around in here, Lol...

He has been getting his Baytril mixed in his food-formula when being fed into his Crop via Catheter.

I will let him enjoy being able to fly around for a little while, then round him up and back into his cage he goes...


Thanks all..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, sometime yesterday, he threw up...

I had added K-T to the tune of about 40 percent to his otherwise 'Hagens' mash as the Baby-type-food formula. Guess he did not like the K-T or something, as it is the only time he has thrown up.

But, or and...in the throw up of tan drying powder, I found this -

(See the last two images of his Album)

http://community.webshots.com/album/457675671YUDScJ


Which looks like a section of Mimosa Seed pod...measureing almost 3/4ths of an inch across at the widest by 7/16ths of an inch wide. How the heck he ever swallowed this in the first place is beyond me!

Glad it is out of there anyway...but of course I do not know what else is in there yet...

Thought you might find it curious...

I sure hope he gets better...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have any idea whether that came out soft or might it have been rigid? There are several cases of esophageal lacerations from tortilla-type corn chips. I don't suppose that thing would be any different and could explain the pendulous crop if it had suffered a leak. Feel that bird real well (but gently in case there's more of that garbage in there) and see if you can localize something that doesn't feel right.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Semi-rigid, likely not so rigid as to lacerate, but springy-tough anyway.

There might be more such things in there, but it is hard to feel for the contents in his Crop, but I will try a few times later today and see.

Originally I feared a punctured or ruptured Crop, and the Vet believed instead, that the Birds Crop muscle-tone was relaxed from the influence of the Candida...

No 'low' sagging Crop since he was on the ACV for a week, which suggests the Vet was correct. 

The seeming abcess now is less well defined but still likely present and may merely have become hydrated and soft iinstead of isolated from hydration and firm-hard...or...I dunno...

I am feeding him more now.

I was reluctant to feed him 'too much' since I was not sure just what was going on in that Crop and feared to induce more Crop Stasis with overloading it.

I will do a good 'feel' session later and report back...

While this has been the most prolific Wing Slapper I recall having, with negotion, they have come to allow me to gently reach in there and stroke their crop and breeast, without protest, and to massage it or feel for contents, so...that is good...

Thanks Pidgey!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The other thing you might try is to side-light the esophagus kind of like "candling" an egg. Just shine a very small light source through the neck and see what you see on the other side. Moving the feathers aside will be the worst of it.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 

Well, there is nothing with his neck proper I don't think that would be of any interest, but I will try it and see.

I used to have a flex-neck bore scope for rifle bores, that might almost fit all the way down, to 'candle' the Crop from within, but...it is long gone now...and likely was a mite too fat anyway, Lol...

He has quite dense Feathers in fact on his breast/Crop area, and it is not easy even to get them parted to see the skin there at all.

I will see what I can do, I have some pretty decent police model 'mag Lights' that I can try candleing with...

Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

..no luck Candleing...

Did several 'feel' sessions, but aside from his Crop-skin feeling thicker than say that of Crow-Baby or other comparisons, I could find nothing to feel there.

He is going down though, and while I have fed him enough to get by on certainly, and his weight had held steady, he has pooped very little and is getting weak now and wobbly and falling over.

I hate this - seeing one slowly slip downward while I do not know what ( else) to do for them.

I called the Bird Vet and left an answering-machine message seeking an appointment for tomorrow...


This is a very sweet and pretty feral young adult, and I am at a loss to know what to do now for him.

He has his heating pad, has been on Baytril for some time, I had him initially on the ACV Water for his candida, and...then on Citremed water for the last several days...

Maybe the Candida has blocked his digestive system? and I did not alleviate it as I imagined?

Dave him, re-instated a regimen of 'Nystatin' now...point-two-five of a cc down the gullet. I will repeat again later so to have it twice-a-day.

Maybe I blew it here by not useing the Nystatin all along...

I was expecting either the issue of the seeming abcess to erupt or diminish, and, for him to start passing foods in a normal manner by now.

Oh golly...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Phil,

So sorry this little one is doing so poorly. Let's hope the Nystatin does the trick. As to "seeing" through feathers .. wet them down with rubbing alcohol applied with a cotton ball .. that's what my vet does.

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If his digestive system were blocked, then feeding him would only cause his crop to swell and stay swelled. If there's no hardness, bulge or other anomaly in the esophageal and crop area, then there's got to be a problem further down. It sounds as though the Baytril isn't helping and you may need to switch to something else but you've got very little time left to do it in. If he's ruptured his GI lower down then medications won't be able to keep up with the infection.

It doesn't sound like there's much time left at all and so, and I really hate to say this, if it ends badly you should request a necropsy and attend. That crop that he originally had that pooched out was very odd and had to have some kind of weird cause.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...


Thanks for your support and input on this - 

Anyway, the 'Nystatin' at point-two-five mL twice-a-day, seems to be helping.

He is much more active now and climbing the cage sides at times wishing to be with the free roving Birds in here. Wing Slaps have improved also.

When I was cleaning his cage just now, he was pecking at Seeds.

I have not fed him today and his Crop is feeling empty now.

Not much for poops but for some bright green slime dabs which I take to signal starvation, or, that and m-a-y-b-e, that some food is starting to get through. 

I will see what there is for poops tomorrow morning...or later today as may be.

I inspected the area of suspiciously dead looking skin which had been yellow with a grey mid area, and now I see that something is erupting through the skin...

I made some images but they are not very clear - 

See at 

http://community.webshots.com/album/457675671YUDScJ

There is a small area of skin that is open now, about the diameter of a Pencil's end Eraser, and close in it, under it, to the diameter of a Nickle or so, is a yellow powdery matter and pale green powdery matter also around it...

It does not feel distinctly 'lumpish' but is quite definite, and strange to my experience.


This is just a little below the top of his Keel and on his right side. Just on the side of the prominance of the Keel proper.


Tomorrow we go to the Vet...

Wish us luck...

P.S.

Sorry the images are so vague, it was hard to hold him in one hand, part the dense breasyt Feathers, and somehow snap an image before the feathers came back to cover the area.

I am surprised the Feathers have not fallen out there as usually occures with skin issues...I thought of plucking them out but obviously did not do it...

Nighty night...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, he definitely originally did one of two things: either he ruptured his crop or there was a canker area that's eating through. I'm glad to hear he's feeling a little better, though.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, all...

We went to the Vet and did not get to see the No. 1 Bird man, but No. 2 is pretty decent and a good sport.

There is another seeming Mimosa Seed-pod segment just like the last with the angular end in there still, and it seems to be what remains of the apearent abcess...

His Crop ( topcal examination, but with me holding and him examining, much better than must me trying to do both! ) had Seeds in it now! He had been pecking off and on, so he is eating on his own somewhat now.

Now, the Vet was saying that the 'thing' seems to be the remnant of the shrunken conjectural abcess...but one can see clearly the shape and thickness to be identical to the pod-chunk he threw up recently.

So I am certain that what we located and held the skin down around, is another damned chunk of Mimosa or like-kind of Seed-pod, which oweing to it's shape is not likely to pass through, and, may well be held 'up' as it were somewhat in it's being the involved in the abcess that has shrank down to about nothing.

There is no eruption/perforation as I thought, but rather, there is a funny little area of what the skin is doing there, and all this sort of yellow powdery aspect to it.

The Vet did not have an opinion on what the heck that is...so...

Where we left off, is leave him be for another week or so, keep him on the Baytril...and if the 'thing' is still there, we will do a surgery and get it out of there.

I kind of wanted to get it out of there today, while we were there, get it over with and get whatever is in there that should not be in there, "out" of there, and to just get it over with since I do not think thie Mimosa pod chunk will pass through and I am worried it may clog or hurt something if his system tries or is coerced to pass it...

But the Vet, maybe had too many other things to do today, and was making vibes of not wating to do it now, but seemed cool to do it another time, so...


Now, should I - do you think - continue to use the Baytril? Or should I consider to switch to some other antibiotic?

Should I discretely get Vet No. 1 in an appointment and get the surgical proceedure done Monday? ( that would be the soonest) ????


I think I should...try on Monday, for seeing Vet No. 1 and getting the proceedure done, unless the Bird throw it up somehow like he did the last chunk.


Now, I have some Ipecac...

Ideas?


Thanks !


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Phil, since you know it is a foreign body, I think you are right in wanting to get it removed so the bird can focus all energy on healing, not wasting any dealing with the object. Amazing how you've brought this bird so far along!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terrri B,


Yea...

I think I will call Monday and see if I can get with No. 1 Vet, and have a simple incision, removal of the Seed Pod chunk, general clean out of anything else in there, and have a good inspection of the inside area, then, some sutures, and back home for us for him to finish up with the home-stretch of his getting over this matter...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, Phil, that's actually a lot easier surgery than you'd think. And by that I mean easier on the bird. Unie, if you'll recall, experienced a hole in the crop when that other bird tried to kill her when she was a two-day old chick. It healed on its own in about a week. My vet wouldn't even think twice about doing it--he'd take one look, glance at me for the go-ahead and just pop back to surgery so fast it'd make your head swim.

For most of us it's the THOUGHT of it that's downright horrifying. We know we don't want anyone cutting on us and we'll endure an amazing amount of agony to keep from it. I went over a half-year with a really miserable hernia that it only took a morning to fix. The recovery wasn't pleasant but it sure beat keeping the hernia.

Realistically, I don't think a crop surgery bothers the bird much. Even Winter's second surgery, oviduct removal and all, didn't bother her much. She sorta' felt out of sorts the next day but the day after that she was chompin' at the bit to get back out to the loft. They heal from something like that so much faster than we do that it's just plain unreal.

Conversely, the problems that can arise from leaving something inside that's a constant reservoir of infection can be life-threatening. You just know that some sharp edge of that object had to have either punctured a small hole or it's breeding a fungus or something that has occasionally made that bird sick. Maybe the obstruction caused a plug of stuff to stay there and it just soured and the worst of it's over. Don't know until you've had a good look. 

I've been thinking about adding an endoscope for stuff like that but the one I want is about $500 (new) and that's a tad pricey.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey...!


Thanks pardner...

Yea, I myself felt easy and comfortable with the prospect of the surgery to get the thing out of there.

Recently, seeing Vet No. 1, I had brought a lovely Morning Dove with a punctured Breast...this was not a fresh injury at all, and the Vet cleaned the outside, revealed a hole about 1/2 inch wide, cleaned some more, flushed in to it with dilute peroxide, probed down three inches! evidently, she had flown into something and it punctured her breast and slid doen along the side of her Keel...so, he probes with no resistance to that amazing depth, got some q-tips, reached down in there and brought up all sorts of crap.

Did that untill he felt it was clean in there, with numerous flushings...then, sewed her up. 

She had recovered nicely and was comfortable even soon as we got home, preening, eating and so on. Doves HATE cages, so I soon let her be on her own recogniscance in here where she has kindly spent time with variuous Baby-youngster Doves encouraging them to be SO "WILD" as to soon pretend I must be some 'Land Shark' and to really ham it all up in their flights from me and so on...well, two didn't get into this game as much and still light on my shoulders and accept water from a cup or visit me and so on...Lol...

I had held the Dove in a particular way I have learned which is easy for the Bird and takes no force as such, and the Bird behaved splendidly and I just locked my elbows on the examination table, and it presented an excellent poise for the Vet to do his work.

Now, it is a real difficulty for me to aspire to do proceedures like this on my own with no help...! But seeing such things done, I have learned a great deal.

Present Bird, with his Crop issues, I feel very comfortable to hold in that special way, and for Vet No.1 to do what needs to be done.

I think Vet No. 2 has not much experience in Bird surgery matters, and while he means well, he just has not been there enough pragmatically. He was insisting on anaesthesia if we did do the proceedure, and I tactfully guided to assert my preference to merely hold the Bird nicely and not to employ any anaesthesia.

Personally, the occasions past when I had conceeded to other Vets useing anaesthesia, every time the Bird perished later that day, even when some proceedure was far FAR less traumatic than the injury they already had endured for days.

So, two things - 

I will never let anyone 'take' the Bird out of my site nor let anyone else hold them. 

I will never conceed to anaesthesia unless for say, pinning a Bone or something, or even then, I will have to see...

Vet No. 1 is cool to let me hold them while he does whatever...and we talked about that also, as well as how I feel about anaesthesia, and he is fine with my wishes.

Other matters - 

I too have been thinking to obtain a very slender endoscope!

I have not researched the options yet, as for what kind may be best, or who makes them, but of course, our beloved 'e-bay' is an education in itself in some ways, and a source of useful items variously.

If a particular model seems most advantageous, maybe one of us can schmoose the manufacturer to give a good-guy-deal...

So, wish us well...!

"Monday"...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wanted to let you know he passed away this evening...more or less as they napped, laying down on the warm towell covered Heating Pad.

This has been such a touch-and-go deal, he'd rally a little, preen, look alert and interested, peck at the cage sides and then have this 'look' with head raised as if in a question, to let me know he wanted to be 'fed'...

A late juvenile or young Adult with pinkish wattles.

Crop would not empty well now for some days, so I could not dare feed him on top of the last food...he'd made some occasional decent poops, normall enough looking ones if smallish, but with long times between them...otherwise...little food was getting through. He'd held his weight anyway, such as it was...of 220 Grammes.

I am guessing that the second ( or more than that, maybe third or fourth still in there somewhere for all I know, of ) 'Mimosa' seed-pod thing-chunk had got lodged on it's way to his stomach...it did not seem to be in the Crop any more, the abcess was appearantly completely gone, and I was hopeing the Seed-pod piece that was SO distinct under the skin of his Crop ten days ago, I was hopeing it WOULD be tactile-discoverable again, so I could go see Vet No. "1" and get it out of there.

I am sad, this was a nice Bird, pretty, perfect Feathers, patient, sometimes ate his Seeds a little, communicated well, came to accept the tube feeds with grace and bright eyes since he was not eating enough on his own. I'd show him the syringe ready to go, and he knew the drill, would look as if to say, "Oh! Okay...let's do it..." Then get him from his cage and do the deed with him wrapped in a little towell.

...if ever I find reason to believe there is a foreign, indigestible, dangerously shaped thing in a Pigeon's Crop again, I believe I will do my best to get an exploratory incision with the Vet even if the item is not positively identified by feel and deduction somehow, or by comparison in shape to other things they had thown up...and make darned sure to get whatever it is, out of there.

I would have done it that one day, but Vet No. 2 was not into it...and I could not get Vet No. "1"..when I did get Vet No. "1" tghe Monday following, we could not find the thing by feeling the Crop and we even took turns trying.

So, damn...

34 days of trying to get that Crop situation solved, but defeated ultimately I will guess, even after the large abcess was seemingly gone entirely, from the elusive migration of the remaining (one or more) Mimosa seed pod piece which went somewhere down, and I guess, locked things up. That, and or the recently past infections had left too much scar blockage somewhere between the Crop and their Stomach...

I had named them 'Ruby'...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear Ruby passed away. I know how hard it has to be after giving this bird so much time and attention, and love and care. 

Sending comforting thoughts your way.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sending a big hug your way. It really hurts when you do everything you can to help them survive, particularly if it lives this long.

maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*How heartbreaking*

that Ruby didn't make it. Things seem to be looking so up! 

You sure did all you could and my condolences are with you!


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

What an ordeal Phil... so sorry for this loss. Keep your chin up, there are more pigeons that need your expertise!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks all...

We learn as we go...

Some of what I learned with this one was new to me, some slightly new.

This will help others is similar presentations occur...things to check, how to check...regimens, meds...

Candida I have seen several times now, and I know it so far has responded very well to the AVC Water, and or the Nystatin also which was new to my use, but now I have two small bottles of it.

These abcesses are liable to variations, certainly, but I think his did heal up allright...

...foreign objects definitely present in the Crop was new to me, but a consideration for future times if I see Crops having troubles or abcesses in that region which may have arisen from a foreign object injuring from the inside...

...different things...

It is kind of an ache somehow for me when I lose one. My body feels it globally, like a dull 'flu ache...especially if tube feeding them several times a day for weeks, you kind of get to know them more than one who passes very soon after arrival...you get used to the routine, little signal-communication things, used to them being there, used to checking them fifty times a day in one way or another.

As most of you know with your own involvements and past experiences..!

Anyway...


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonmania (Oct 17, 2004)

Wow, I just read all through that and am deeply saddened Good job for you, Phil, for trying to help out this poor little bird. So sorry.
Stacie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Stacie...

I look back and try and think what I could have done differently, and the time to have made the incision and removed the Mimosa-pod chunk was when Vet No. "2" and I located it under the skin there, but he was majorly making vibes of not being in the mood to do the proceedure, and saying things like "Well, this must be the remains of the Abcess..." and so on and me saying "Uhhhh, I believe this is a piece of Monosa-pod ( or similar pod chunk) like what he threw up a few days ago, and...May we please get it out of there?" and him sayning, "Well, uhhhh, this is likely just the remains of the abcess..." 

After that, i think the pod-chunk somehow went 'down' and really cloggged things up...I never could locate it again in feeling for it...

I did not want to insist that the Vet do the proceedure when clearly he was trying to get out of it...he may not have done these kinds of things before, like Vet No. "1" had...and so...that was maybe the critical moment there in this, the not getting that damned thing out of there when the getting was good.

...at least I know now, that even a large abcess can shrink and appearently heal with Baytril...and that is good to know...

I was even thinking of trying to locate the kind of bacteria Termites have as symbiotes in their gut, that allows them to 'digest' Wood, thinking THAT might let him 'digest' or break down this Woddy-fiberous-semi-ridgid Seed-Pod section...

So...damn...

He was a smart Bird too, and when I'd hold up the Syringe-rube outfit for his feedings, he'd see it and soon was very co-operative with the proceedure and sometimes afterward would peck a little and preen and so on, and...

Well...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonmania (Oct 17, 2004)

This sorta reminds me of a chick I once saved from hypothermia. I first started my pigeon hobby with a few homers. One was a feral I saved with a broken wing whom I named 'Flightless' and his mate was a racing homer who was given to me by a king pigeon breeder. Well they then had just one baby and did sit on it for a while, but when I went out to check on them or feed them or something, they were not sitting on it and the poor thing was freezing to death. I then wondered if I should just let nature take its course or if I should save it. It looked practically dead- until I saw it move a little! Then I was out to save it! I cupped it into my hands and it moved somemore! I brought the little thing into my house, set up a heating pad and just monitored it. Surprisingly, this little thing did survive and did grow a little into adult hood. He was eating by himself, and if you were not watching, he would run out from underneath a dresser and bite your leg or foot and go running back. He was quite a character! Unfortunately, I went on a trip and had my brother and father care for this bird while I was gone. I had this bird out in the hallway between my brother's and my room. Well to make a long story short, my mom's dogs got to him and killed him. Here I thought I did a great thing in giving this little bird a second chance, but then something like this had to happen. It is very upsetting indeed! I just wish he had not died getting eaten by a stupid dog! There were feathers everywhere and all I found of him was part of his wing! I wish I never had gone on that trip for he would probably be still alive today! So horrible!
Stacie


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