# Coccidiosis?



## bzagor (Feb 2, 2013)

One of the feral pigeons that live on my balcony, "Sprinkles Handsome", was vomiting yesterday- multiple times and then didn't eat any seed and sat on the ledge puffed up for most of the day (when I came back he was gone). Today he showed up to eat in the morning and I was able to catch him. His droppings are a very vivid forest green color, sticky and mucousy/not solid. Could he have Coccidiosis? Or something worse? He is not a young bird- I think he might be a few years old or more. I have him isolated in my bathroom away from the other birds with plenty of food and water. 

Thanks!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Looks like starvation droppings. He is probably ill and hasn't been eating. Have you checked down his throat? Could be canker, and you can't always see that. Have you checked him over well for any injuries? If canker, then Metronidazole 50 mg daily, once a day for 10 days. Could be other things going on too.


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## bzagor (Feb 2, 2013)

Hi Jay!
Thanks for your response. I checked for canker and found nothing inside his mouth or throat. I've hand fed him corn twice now- last night and this morning- and I'm afraid he threw up last night because there was a bunch of corn beneath him when I visited him this morning. He hasn't pecked at any of the seed I left either. I have crushed up Metronidazole a bird friend gave me that I dissolved in a big water bottle according to instructions. How should I administer the exact dose to him? I just gave him some of the water- but I don't think he's touched it. His poop looks the same as the pictures below.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Frozen peas which have been defrosted and warmed would be much better than corn. Peas would be much easier to digest. Canker doesn't always show. It can be internal. You can't really give the metronidazole that way. You wouldn't be able to give enough to treat him that way, and you have no way of knowing how much you are giving. Also, the tablets don't mix well in water, if that is what you used. You need to get tablets, let us know how many mg they are, and we can help you with the dose. He needs 50 mg daily, in one dose. Under dosing with the water you have can make things worse, and cause the trich to build up an immunity. You can often buy Fishzole in a pet store that sells tropical fish. But you need to check first and make sure that Metronidazole is the only ingredient. Not mixed with anything else.


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## bzagor (Feb 2, 2013)

Hi Jay!

The Metronidazole(flagyl) is in powder form not pill form. A pigeon rehabber friend gave me some- I can contact her to ask more. The instructions she wrote are 4tsp per gallon. I can feed him peas instead of corn. Would it be better to feed him baby pigeon food? I still have some from weaning another bird. Good to know about the Flagyl immunity- thanks! He is still having the same poop. He is very, very angry that he is stuck inside my bathroom and not outside with the other birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If the poops are looking the same, then he needs you to get food into him. Use the frozen peas that have been defrosted under warm running water. Not canned peas either. Not the same. You hold him on your lap and against your body. Open his beak and put in a pea. Push it to the back of his throat and over the tongue. Then let him close his beak and swallow. Feed him 30 peas to start with, then about 6 hours later, only if his crop has emptied, do it again. If he doesn't leave droppings, then the crop isn't emptying, and you don't want to add new food to the old food in his crop. He needs to be kept quiet and warm. The peas are easy to digest as they are already very soft. What kind of corn are you giving? He could have a blockage in the crop also, and hard corn may not go through.

Giving meds in water isn't good when treating a sick bird, as you have no idea how much he is drinking. You don't want to force feed the water, as you can aspirate the bird. Water treating is better if you are doing it as a preventative. Can you not get tablets? Also, Metro can make a pigeon vomit, so you want to give it one time daily, after a meal. If you are getting food into him, his droppings should be looking a bit better. 

There could be other issues going on with him also. He may need an antibiotic. But if you don't get some easily digested food into him, he is going to starve.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

bzagor said:


> Hi Jay!
> 
> The Metronidazole(flagyl) is in powder form not pill form. A pigeon rehabber friend gave me some- I can contact her to ask more. The instructions she wrote are 4tsp per gallon. I can feed him peas instead of corn. Would it be better to feed him baby pigeon food? I still have some from weaning another bird. Good to know about the Flagyl immunity- thanks! He is still having the same poop. He is very, very angry that he is stuck inside my bathroom and not outside with the other birds.


because he has been throwing up I would crop feed him small amounts of human baby food peas, or carrot first, a whole pea may stay in his crop if he is slow digesting, a baby bird hand feeding formula would be nice to have too if you need to force feed him. just keep it at small amounts. do not medicated after feeding as he may just throw it up. I would treat him with a broad spectrum antibiotic and treat for canker as well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not everyone knows how to crop feed. The frozen peas are very soft and don't usually cause a problem even if the bird is vomiting. They work fine, and aren't really like giving a whole pea, as they are very squishy. I have used them many times with sick and vomiting bird, and they digest them easily.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Not everyone knows how to crop feed. The frozen peas are very soft and don't usually cause a problem even if the bird is vomiting. They work fine, and aren't really like giving a whole pea, as they are very squishy. I have used them many times with sick and vomiting bird, and they digest them easily.


I have had to retrieve (with vet help) too many defrosted peas from birds crops that are not digesting well and vomiting and slow crop. 

one does not have to crop feed human baby food, it can be given with other feeding methods. my advice is from experience which I work at a vet clinic and have had probelms with the peas. Im glad you had healthier birds that did not.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I have had to retrieve (with vet help) too many defrosted peas from birds crops that are not digesting well and vomiting and slow crop.
> 
> one does not have to crop feed human baby food, it can be given with other feeding methods. my advice is from experience which I work at a vet clinic and have had probelms with the peas. Im glad you had healthier birds that did not.


Well you had said _crop feed_. So I was just saying that not everyone can do that.
As far as the defrosted peas, they rarely cause a problem, as they are very easily digested. And the vomiting does not mean a slow crop. Canker can cause vomiting, and most birds with it will tolerate the soft defrosted peas very well. And my advice is from keeping a loft of rescued pigeons that often come in so sick that they can't eat on their own. I have never had problems with the peas. If I have had to remove the contents of a crop, it has been from the hard peas and such that come in pigeon feed, not defrosted soft peas. And I didn't need a vet to do that.
Also, if medicating with Metronidazole, it is better to feed first, as Metro can make a bird vomit, but putting some food in first often helps to prevent the vomiting. Just like some meds that people take, and it is suggested to eat before taking the medicine. Putting food in first helps stop the med from making you vomit.


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## bzagor (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. I've had plenty of experience hand feeding whether it is peas, corn, or baby bird food. I've released the guy back to the balcony after keeping a close watch on him and hand feeding him for 3 days- the last day including a dosage of Flagyl and probiotics in his hand fed formula. He seemed to be fine after all and I started to feel horrible locking him up in the bathroom for days because there is no window and he was all alone with nothing to do, extremely confused and scared. I started to think maybe he was just randomly sick that one day and He's always around on my balcony so I'm still checking him out regularly from afar and since I let him back out he seems ok- even getting into fights with others.

Meanwhile and ironically however, one of my doves came down with very bad canker. It's visible in her throat, she has been puffed up for 2 days, holding her head up high, slimy poops, swollen throat, a little bit opening her mouth,and occasionally throwing up bits. The other guy was locked up- completely unexposed to the other birds, so it doesn't make sense that it would come from him. All my other birds (2 other doves, a finch, a cockatiel, and a pigeon) seem ok. I started hand feeding her baby bird formula mixed with a small amount of probiotic yogurt and the Flagyl powder dissolved in water (4tsp per gallon of water). I just fed her about 6 Tsp of the above described formula. I am waiting back for a clearer response from my friend about if the powder Flagyl that I have is technically the same dosage as the oral suspension formula. I want to make sure I am giving her enough medicine and not under dosing her.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There is just no way of making sure that she gets the right amount of the med that way. An adult pigeon needs 50 mg daily, and a squab would need 25 mg. You really should just go out and find the Metronidazole or Fish zole and give it to her. Surely she is worth it. You can also order it from pigeon supply places. It is something you should have on hand anyway.


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## bzagor (Feb 2, 2013)

Ok tomorrow I will go get the Fishzole. Does it work as well as flagyl? Should I give the amounts you mentioned of it :50 mg daily to her? I have Metronidazole on hand and like I said that is what I have been giving her, it is just in powder form.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

bzagor said:


> Ok tomorrow I will go get the Fishzole. Does it work as well as flagyl? Should I give the amounts you mentioned of it :50 mg daily to her? I have Metronidazole on hand and like I said that is what I have been giving her, it is just in powder form.


if she was acting normal going to get a big drink after she is fed then it may be fine only as a flock preventative..but for a sick bird, she needs the meds givin to her at exact dosage. flish zole is metroindazole and metro is flagyl. 

crop feeding is really not hard and one can save a many birds life doing it that way, basically if one can fit a tube at the end of the syringe that the food is in and slide the tube at the back of the throat just like you would a metronidazole tab and push the syringe it takes like three seconds. the bird has food and it's done, this is a good way to get softer better nutrition in her. if that is something that is not possible then making kaytee balls with hand feeding formula would break down easier and be more nutritiouse. 

", if you get some Kaytee hand feeding formula and mix a few tablespoons of it with a 1/2 teaspoon of olive oil and the slowly add a bit of water at a time until it is to a pie-dough consistency, you can then roll very small pieces of this into small balls the size of the peas you have been feeding and "pop" them in. There will be much more nutrition and calories in these, just make sure he gets enough tepid water to break down the balls to move them through his crop, this is a way to get more calories into him, and is a way around tube feeding for people who are nervous about doing this. Feed about 15-20 balls at a time, letting his crop empty, as often as often as he can take feedings to get some weight back on him."

I would only give 5 or 6 balls at first untill you see how the crop is moving. when he gains weight and feels better you should not have to hand feed at that point.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Well you had said _crop feed_. So I was just saying that not everyone can do that.
> As far as the defrosted peas, they rarely cause a problem, as they are very easily digested. And the vomiting does not mean a slow crop. Canker can cause vomiting, and most birds with it will tolerate the soft defrosted peas very well. And my advice is from keeping a loft of rescued pigeons that often come in so sick that they can't eat on their own. I have never had problems with the peas. If I have had to remove the contents of a crop, it has been from the hard peas and such that come in pigeon feed, not defrosted soft peas. And I didn't need a vet to do that.
> Also, if medicating with Metronidazole, it is better to feed first, as Metro can make a bird vomit, but putting some food in first often helps to prevent the vomiting. Just like some meds that people take, and it is suggested to eat before taking the medicine. Putting food in first helps stop the med from making you vomit.



the problem is, you don't know the bird does not have a slow crop, a pea going bad in the crop is not good. So just in case---- it is better to see how food is moving before giveing those peas IMO. if you feel you can be sure over the internet and be it's vet then he should do as you say.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well he didn't say the bird had a slow crop. He said he was vomiting. So that is what I was going on. You also cannot assume that every bird that vomits has a slow crop. The peas are also safer for many to feed. Many have come on here and tried to feed their birds formulas and the like, and they have aspirated the poor things. Have you thought of that? If that happens then you will never know if the crop is moving or not. No one should crop feed unless they are first shown how. Birds have also been aspirated that way, and crops have been burned and ruptured. So who's trying to be a vet over the internet?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Well he didn't say the bird had a slow crop. He said he was vomiting. So that is what I was going on. You also cannot assume that every bird that vomits has a slow crop. The peas are also safer for many to feed. Many have come on here and tried to feed their birds formulas and the like, and they have aspirated the poor things. Have you thought of that? If that happens then you will never know if the crop is moving or not. No one should crop feed unless they are first shown how. Birds have also been aspirated that way, and crops have been burned and ruptured. So who's trying to be a vet over the internet?


sometimes doing things different is difficult, but always be open to others experience. the peas were troublesome for some of the sick birds I have taken care of, the skin on the peas are hard to digest. starting off with "well" sounds defensive and that is not what Im about. I understand your repeating what you have been told and have done, I think evey pigeon is different and this one instead of sticking a bunch of peas in it lets see how it digests softer food first. IMO. which make sense to me. sorry if it does not to you. Im not even sure how this bird is doing at this moment, The pea feeding is helpful for allot of healthy birds, esp young that are about to eat on their own and digest well.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

How do the droppings smell? If there is no smell, is not coccidiosis. I have a pigeon that was making similar droppings, very big in volume (although eating normally) and a strong sulfur-like smell. I threated for cocci and the droppings became solid (still unusually voluminous for a while), the smell also almost vanished but is still present. 

I made later lab tests for him and found he has e-coli at a higher than normal level but nothing else.

Btw, from the like 10 birds I tested, only one had internal canker, I don't think the incidence is so high and metronidazole is a medicine quite toxic so better don't give it if is not visible canker. Especially because internal canker is usually incurable.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> How do the droppings smell? If there is no smell, is not coccidiosis. I have a pigeon that was making similar droppings, very big in volume (although eating normally) and a strong sulfur-like smell. I threated for cocci and the droppings became solid (still unusually voluminous for a while), the smell also almost vanished but is still present.
> 
> I made later lab tests for him and found he has e-coli at a higher than normal level but nothing else.
> *
> Btw, from the like 10 birds I tested, only one had internal canker, I don't think the incidence is so high and metronidazole is a medicine quite toxic so better don't give it if is not visible canker. Especially because internal canker is usually incurable.*





You are incorrect in your assumption that canker incidence is not high. It's actually very common. Most all pigeons carry trichomonas, and any stress can bring up the level of the trich. Another illness, bullying by another bird, racing, breeding, even the change in seasons. All these things and more can cause the trich to multiply, and that is what causes canker. It usually will show in younger birds in their mouths or throats. Usually. Not so in adults as much. They can have canker and it not show in their throat. You are also very wrong in that internal canker is incurable. It's very curable. And the sooner you start treating, the more easily cured. It's when you mess around with different drugs trying to fix the bird, and you don't treat with a canker med, because you don't see the canker, that he becomes too sick and dies. It is very common, and very easily treated. Many treat for canker along with a treatment for another known illness the bird is carrying, because just the stress of illness can bring up the trich levels and cause canker. So good to treat for both. And Metronidazole is safe if dosed correctly. If people only treated for the canker they could actually see in the birds throat, many birds would die needlessly.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

internal canker is not as common or not as "high" as it being in the throat or beak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's a lot more common than you think. Most cases of sour crop are caused by canker. Birds die all the the because people unfortunately believe that you can always see it in the throat or beak. So the bird doesn't get treated for canker and they die. It often doesn't show in the throat or beak.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I know you have been told this and repeat it, it is a neat/tidy answer for things we don't really know what killed a bird unless a necropsy is done or testing. I have had birds that if I was unable to do that and know what most likey it died from.. it would of probably been blamed on canker and it would not of been right. treating for it anyway has it's own issues with resistant strains etc... but that is another subject.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's not that I have been told it, and believe it. It's true. Canker often does not show in the throat when a bird has canker. It is also usually treatable when caught early enough. If you treat it when the bird is on his way out, then yes, you will likely lose him.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Actually, it is true that internal canker is much more common than the kind most keepers look for in the bird's mouth and throat.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Actually, it is true that internal canker is much more common than the kind most keepers look for in the bird's mouth and throat.


I had a feeling you are who she parrots all the time. so she called you in for the resuce..lol..

internal canker is not as common as visible canker or throat and crop areas, . usually squabs with unhealed navals can be at risk that is how it gets internal. the oral mucosa is usually the first place it shows itself , most common seeing it orally and how it is passed on, so that is where the majority is going to be. I think treating for it just on a guess could cause resistant strains from over use of the medications, which is a waste if the bird does not even have some internal lesion , too bad we don't have a crystal ball. and if you can see it inside the body on an xray the bird would probably be so sick it would be dead or about dead anyway. Im not going to say don't treat, to each their own if they want to guess it is internal canker, just know allot of drugs are getting resistant.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't parrot anyone, so your feeling is incorrect. I read and learn. If I keep birds then I feel I owe it to them to learn as much as I can about them. I agree with you that in squabs, it normally does show itself in the throat, but not in adults. And that is where the babies are getting it from. I'm surprised, with you working at a vet and all that you don't seem to understand canker better. And you don't seem to know that it can be diagnosed from a swab. You don't need a crystal ball or an x-ray. Most pigeons do carry trich, which is what causes canker, so it's very common among adults as well as squabs. It just doesn't show in the same ways. When you are familiar enough with it, you can see the signs when a pigeon has canker, even when it doesn't show in the throat. You don't need to guess about it. Maybe you should read up on it more, to better understand it. And you can email Dr. Walker in Australia. He is really very good about answering emails, and explaining the different common pigeon diseases. Many people have gone to him with questions, and he welcomes them.

As far as treating a pigeon for canker even though it doesn't show in the throat, it is better to treat than to not. If the canker is there and you don't treat, the bird will die. And when there is other illness going on, the bird will also often have canker. It is brought on by stress, and having another illness stresses the bird and often brings it on, so treating for both is usually beneficial.

In a perfect world, everyone could bring their birds to the vet, but not in this one. Many bird vets don't even see pigeons, and many of the ones that will, just don't know enough about pigeons, as they don't see many. So when the symptoms are there, you treat. Better to be safe than sorry. Canker is one of the more common diseases, whether you can see it or not, and it is very treatable if caught early enough. But the belief that it must show in the throat to be canker is what leads many people to not recognize it, and therefore not treat for it. Often what is thought to be respiratory is actually canker, so while treating for the wrong thing, the bird dies. I can post some links for you to look at if you like. Just let me know.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I don't parrot anyone, so your feeling is incorrect. I read and learn. If I keep birds then I feel I owe it to them to learn as much as I can about them. I agree with you that in squabs, it normally does show itself in the throat, but not in adults. And that is where the babies are getting it from. I'm surprised, with you working at a vet and all that you don't seem to understand canker better. And you don't seem to know that it can be diagnosed from a swab. You don't need a crystal ball or an x-ray. Most pigeons do carry trich, which is what causes canker, so it's very common among adults as well as squabs. It just doesn't show in the same ways. When you are familiar enough with it, you can see the signs when a pigeon has canker, even when it doesn't show in the throat. You don't need to guess about it. Maybe you should read up on it more, to better understand it. And you can email Dr. Walker in Australia. He is really very good about answering emails, and explaining the different common pigeon diseases. Many people have gone to him with questions, and he welcomes them.
> 
> As far as treating a pigeon for canker even though it doesn't show in the throat, it is better to treat than to not. If the canker is there and you don't treat, the bird will die. And when there is other illness going on, the bird will also often have canker. It is brought on by stress, and having another illness stresses the bird and often brings it on, so treating for both is usually beneficial.
> 
> In a perfect world, everyone could bring their birds to the vet, but not in this one. Many bird vets don't even see pigeons, and many of the ones that will, just don't know enough about pigeons, as they don't see many. So when the symptoms are there, you treat. Better to be safe than sorry. Canker is one of the more common diseases, whether you can see it or not, and it is very treatable if caught early enough. But the belief that it must show in the throat to be canker is what leads many people to not recognize it, and therefore not treat for it. Often what is thought to be respiratory is actually canker, so while treating for the wrong thing, the bird dies. I can post some links for you to look at if you like. Just let me know.


all pigeons can carry trich, but to see it internally if it is symptomatic you have to cut him open, that is what I mean about the crystal ball, If you want to be "safe than sorry" then why bother testing for anything..just treat the bird for all know pigeons diseases. which is the problem with resistant strains which kills more birds..so have at it. CANKER SHOWING IN THE INTERNAL ORGANS IS NOT AS COMMON AS IT SHOWING IN THE THROAT, CROP AND NOSE. 

canker and me working at a VET.? thanks for the insult. you are a laymans person telling people what your opinion is and so am I. I happen to work for a veterinarian and can actually see necropsys.. I guess you are doing them in your kitchen, when your not putting up curtains in your pigeon loft. there is a difference in canker showing itself and pigeons carrying it, most of them do in the digestive tract, Im talking about symptomatic canker. it is most prevalent in the mucusa areas and throat and nasal passages.. it can and does grow lesions in the internal organs..but it is not as common in all pigeons reguardless of age. this is domestic birds in a loft..not ferals picked up off the street, in rehabbers cases they may find more canker all around internal and in the mucus membrains. If you just want to be right beause you read it then fine. your right, myself I try to be flexible in my thinking when it comes to husbantry, vet medicine and science. BUT facts are facts.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> *all pigeons can carry trich, but to see it internally if it is symptomatic you have to cut him open, that is what I mean about the crystal ball, If you want to be "safe than sorry" then why bother testing for anything..just treat the bird for all know pigeons diseases. which is the problem with resistant strains which kills more birds..so have at it. CANKER SHOWING IN THE INTERNAL ORGANS IS NOT AS COMMON AS IT SHOWING IN THE THROAT, CROP AND NOSE. *
> 
> canker and me working at a VET.? thanks for the insult. you are a laymans person telling people what your opinion is and so am I. I happen to work for a veterinarian and can actually see necropsys.. I guess you are doing them in your kitchen, when your not putting up curtains in your pigeon loft. there is a difference in canker showing itself and pigeons carrying it, most of them do in the digestive tract, Im talking about symptomatic canker. it is most prevalent in the mucusa areas and throat and nasal passages.. it can and does grow lesions in the internal organs..but it is not as common in all pigeons reguardless of age. this is domestic birds in a loft..not ferals picked up off the street, in rehabbers cases they may find more canker all around internal and in the mucus membrains. If you just want to be right beause you read it then fine. your right, myself I try to be flexible in my thinking when it comes to husbantry, vet medicine and science. BUT facts are facts.



You are talking about when Trichomonas have caused canker in those organs, and it has caused damage to them. I am not talking about that. I am talking about a bird with canker, before it has gone far enough to cause damage to his organs. By that time the bird is going to die. The idea is in catching it early when it can be cured. It is common and is fairly easily seen if you know what you are looking for.

I'm speaking from experience, and that does include working with my vet to diagnose illness in my birds, as well as what I have read. Most pigeons carry Trichomonas, and they just live with it without it causing infection. Canker. Their immune system keeps it in check. When they become stressed from something else, such as another illness, breeding, overcrowding, could be anything, even the change in seasons, this causes the immune system to weaken, and the Trich levels to go up. That is when you see them causing canker in the birds. There are many symptoms to watch for, and any or all of them could show. Not all symptoms will be seen in a bird. If caught early, then you can treat the bird for canker, and get him well again easily. But if you are going to depend on it showing in the throat, then you are going to miss it at the earlier stages. And some will die of canker without ever showing it in the throat. 
All of these are symptoms of canker, and not all will show in a single bird at one time.

1) white or yellow cheesy-looking plaques, ulcers and/or nodules inside of the mouth and throat;
2) reduced appetite, complete inappetance and/or a physical inability to eat;
3) inability to swallow (either due to pain or because of severe esophageal thickening making food difficult to pass);
4) crop stasis (thickening of the lining of the crop and/or oesophagus results in an inability of the food to move from the mouth to the stomach, producing starvation);
5) excessive mucus in the mouth, esophagus and crop;
6) regurgitation;
7) vomiting (some birds vomit blood);
8) dehydration;
9) weight loss and poor body condition (some birds can become extremely emaciated);
10) depression (fluffed-up, sleepy appearance - the 'sick bird' look);
11) weakness;
12) diarrhea;
13) respiratory distress (the mucus secretions plug the trachea and throat, making it hard for the birds to breathe);
14) liver damage can occur if the liver is invaded by Trichomonas organisms, resulting in green biliverdinemia (birds with liver failure or 'jaundice' appear green, not yellow);
15) death.
http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/trichomonas.html#trich-diagnosed


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> You are talking about when Trichomonas have caused canker in those organs, and it has caused damage to them. I am not talking about that. I am talking about a bird with canker, before it has gone far enough to cause damage to his organs. By that time the bird is going to die. The idea is in catching it early when it can be cured. It is common and is fairly easily seen if you know what you are looking for.
> 
> I'm speaking from experience, and that does include working with my vet to diagnose illness in my birds, as well as what I have read. Most pigeons carry Trichomonas, and they just live with it without it causing infection. Canker. Their immune system keeps it in check. When they become stressed from something else, such as another illness, breeding, overcrowding, could be anything, even the change in seasons, this causes the immune system to weaken, and the Trich levels to go up. That is when you see them causing canker in the birds. There are many symptoms to watch for, and any or all of them could show. Not all symptoms will be seen in a bird. If caught early, then you can treat the bird for canker, and get him well again easily. But if you are going to depend on it showing in the throat, then you are going to miss it at the earlier stages. And some will die of canker without ever showing it in the throat.
> All of these are symptoms of canker, and not all will show in a single bird at one time.
> ...


I am talking about that! symptomatic canker not carrying it. 
the copy and post is not needed. 
I do not recomend treating just in case in every case.. keeping the birds immunites up should keep the canker in check if no symtoms.. really there is no need to go over all of this. 
almost all pigeons carry canker that does not mean anything unless it is symptomatic that is when you treat them if it is inside the body it is guessing that is the sick birds problem or one of them..so all this is for nothing. I already know all this information there is no need to show it to me.. others may like rereading what they already know though.


I have been taking care of a giant runt pigeon that show canker in his throat and I treated him with all meds availible..it had to be removed and it just come back he has lived this way for three years now. with canker. unfortunate he has a resistant type, which is caused from overmedicating.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Michelle...regarding the Runt with resistant canker...there are many different trich strains and the tried and true don't always work on every strain. The resistant ones require two kinds such as metronidazole and spartrix clear it up. I make a paste, from the spartrix and very carefully paint it directly on the yellow spots in the mouth. I rehab 200 pigeons per average year and the two medication canker meds have never failed with resistant canker.
The metronidazole dose in the drug guides veterinarians use, for pigeons aren't adequate and haven't been updated . They need to be updated, but as veterinarians seldom treat pigeons ...well...they don't know the old dose recommendations don't work.
Anymore, most rehabbers that treat pigeons use 50mg of metronidazole for a 400 gram pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I am talking about that! symptomatic canker not carrying it.
> the copy and post is not needed.
> I do not recomend treating just in case in every case..* keeping the birds immunites up should keep the canker in check if no symtoms*.. really there is no need to go over all of this.
> almost all pigeons carry canker that does not mean anything unless it is symptomatic that is when you treat them if it is inside the body it is guessing that is the sick birds problem or one of them..so all this is for nothing. I already know all this information there is no need to show it to me.. others may like rereading what they already know though.



Your attitude is a bit haughty. I posted that info for others to read, as not everyone even knows the signs and symptoms of a canker infection. All I am saying is that there are other symptoms that you can see, other than seeing it in the throat.When you have dealt with it often enough, and understand when and why they get it, then you usually know when you are dealing with it. It is better to medicate for it, than to have the bird go downhill because of something that is easily treatable.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Michelle...regarding the Runt with resistant canker...there are many different trich strains and the tried and true don't always work on every strain. The resistant ones require two kinds such as metronidazole and spartrix clear it up. I make a paste, from the spartrix and very carefully paint it directly on the yellow spots in the mouth. I rehab 200 pigeons per average year and the two medication canker meds have never failed with resistant canker.
> The metronidazole dose in the drug guides veterinarians use, for pigeons aren't adequate and haven't been updated . They need to be updated, but as veterinarians seldom treat pigeons ...well...they don't know the old dose recommendations don't work.
> Anymore, most rehabbers that treat pigeons use 50mg of metronidazole for a 400 gram pigeon.


Thank you but this probably should be in my own thread IF I started one on the runt pigeon. I have done already what you have suggested and he clears up.. but it comes back. it is pretty small ATM, and Im not medicating but thank you, that is very kind of you to share your treatment. Im trying to get his immunities built up so he can keep it in check.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Your attitude is a bit haughty. I posted that info for others to read, as not everyone even knows the signs and symptoms of a canker infection. All I am saying is that there are other symptoms that you can see, other than seeing it in the throat.When you have dealt with it often enough, and understand when and why they get it, then you usually know when you are dealing with it. It is better to medicate for it, than to have the bird go downhill because of something that is easily treatable.


I should of never corrected the statement internal canker is more common than in throat. I could of saved all this typing and confusion with you.

I disagree. in domestic loft kept pigeons symptomatic canker is more common in the throat than internal.

I do not believe in just throwing medication at issue that are guesses..as internal canker would be....a guess. The End.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can only speak of your loft. Many pigeons do show other signs of canker without it showing in the throat. I'm not going to go back and forth about it. Those who believe that it must show in the throat will loose birds from canker. Those who treat will save them. I'm done.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

bzagor said:


> One of the feral pigeons that live on my balcony, "Sprinkles Handsome", was vomiting yesterday- multiple times and then didn't eat any seed and sat on the ledge puffed up for most of the day (when I came back he was gone). Today he showed up to eat in the morning and I was able to catch him. His droppings are a very vivid forest green color, sticky and mucousy/not solid. Could he have Coccidiosis? Or something worse? He is not a young bird- I think he might be a few years old or more. I have him isolated in my bathroom away from the other birds with plenty of food and water.
> 
> Thanks!



Bzagor I appologize for hijacking your thread on this sillyness. I hope your bird is doing better.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> You can only speak of your loft. Many pigeons do show other signs of canker without it showing in the throat. I'm not going to go back and forth about it. Those who believe that it must show in the throat will loose birds from canker. Those who treat will save them. I'm done.


it shows more in the throat than internal as that is where it is contracted from other pigeons from the start.
I speak of mine and others and feral and domestics that come to my work place An Animal hospital.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> You are talking about when Trichomonas have caused canker in those organs, and it has caused damage to them. I am not talking about that. I am talking about a bird with canker, before it has gone far enough to cause damage to his organs. By that time the bird is going to die. The idea is in catching it early when it can be cured. It is common and is fairly easily seen if you know what you are looking for.
> 
> I'm speaking from experience, and that does include working with my vet to diagnose illness in my birds, as well as what I have read. Most pigeons carry Trichomonas, and they just live with it without it causing infection. Canker. Their immune system keeps it in check. When they become stressed from something else, such as another illness, breeding, overcrowding, could be anything, even the change in seasons, this causes the immune system to weaken, and the Trich levels to go up. That is when you see them causing canker in the birds. There are many symptoms to watch for, and any or all of them could show. Not all symptoms will be seen in a bird. If caught early, then you can treat the bird for canker, and get him well again easily. But if you are going to depend on it showing in the throat, then you are going to miss it at the earlier stages. And some will die of canker without ever showing it in the throat.
> All of these are symptoms of canker, and not all will show in a single bird at one time.
> ...


Thanks to you and others conversations from which I have learned a lot about canker. You are online now, I want to know that if a pigeons beak is partially open,it has white and yellow soft plaques. Flazyl used for 5 days & plaques reduced. Start eating soft food, still poops are green.Overall condition does not improve yet.Beaks is still in open condition. Somebody suggest tetracycline. Please suggest line of further treatment or whether Metrogyl. 
to be administered.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How much Flagyl did you give? How much are you feeding, and how? If plaques are reduced, he needs it longer. He should be on the right dose for 10 days, and sometimes it can take a couple of weeks. You also need to get enough food into him.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> How much Flagyl did you give? How much are you feeding, and how? If plaques are reduced, he needs it longer. He should be on the right dose for 10 days, and sometimes it can take a couple of weeks. You also need to get enough food into him.


Flagyl 50 mg for five days. Frozen peas 15-20 for two times with electrolytes, multivit plus water enough to fill the crop as it can not yet take more than that. Can start again afresh for another 10 days? 
Is there any supplements or vitamins to be given additionally?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

mkdas said:


> Thanks to you and others conversations from which I have learned a lot about canker. You are online now, I want to know that if a pigeons beak is partially open,it has white and yellow soft plaques. Flazyl used for 5 days & plaques reduced. Start eating soft food, still poops are green.Overall condition does not improve yet.Beaks is still in open condition. Somebody suggest tetracycline. Please suggest line of further treatment or whether Metrogyl.
> to be administered.


How old the bird is?
What white and yellow plaques are you talking about? It can very well be candida and your bird may have canker and candida both.
If your pigeon is a homer then 50mg,otherwise a highflyer pigeon would need 35mg per day. Yes you can start the med over again so that the bird can develop immunity. Treating the bird now is very important so that triches don't develop resistance.

If you've given electrolytes for few days then its enough. Don't give more unless your pigeon would always be thirsty as the sodium level in the bird would go high. Feed your bird peas in morning and give enrofloxacin 8-12 mg after feeding. Give metronidazole in the evening 20-30mins after feeding. If the plaques in the mouth still not decrease then anti fungal med is what you would need as I suspect candida. Don't give electrolytes or multivitamins. They can be given later or late in the evening if necessarily needed by the bird.

If your bird has got no respiratory issue then don't give tetracycline for now cuz that will put the bird under stress. Are you talking about terramycin?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

In ANY loft Where pigeons are kept. A person would find Canker in the throat far more often then any other type of canker. And a person could go years and not have any problems with canker. Other areas for canker Might only be seen or found every so many years in very few birds. Maybe one in a thousand. It just depends. I have noticed and others have noticed just using ACV in the water it seems canker is alot less.. Treating for canker loft treatment ONE time a year. Befor breeding season. Very much to no canker happens. Just looking in the throat you miss it sometimes. Because it is LOWER in the throat. where you need a good light And look as deep as you can.. BUT this bird here in this thread it has been released And sounds like it never had canker. There are several deases thast can cause a bird to throw up. And even eating to much can make it throw up. Regular feed and force feeding a little regular feed On birds that have gone 100 percent off feed Works. The fact is a persone can do what they can And that will save the bird or not. And many never see a vet. As they have learned to know and treat there birds With the right meds. Wild ferals A person will not know how many get sick as Most are never found the one that are often are at an end stage Needing help fast. But remember the thread stater said the bird has been released. Must be better. And was not canker


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Canker always resides within the body in form of wet canker.
Only 10% of canker is seen in the throat, rest of the 90% is within the body. Canker may not be seen in throat everytime but the bird may be affected by canker considerably.
Canker can take three forms
-localised
-navel
-internal/wet
The build up shows when canker takes localised form. Not only in throat but also at the bottom of crop,in liver etc.
Wet canker is more common and can confuse a person with other illnesses which usually happens


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Canker always resides within the body in form of wet canker.
> Only 10% of canker is seen in the throat, rest of the 90% is within the body. Canker may not be seen in throat everytime but the bird may be affected by canker considerably.
> Canker can take three forms
> -localised
> ...


that 90 percent you READ about is not active. Causing NO HARM to the birds. Wet canker Is something Some race bird DO get and it effects there performance. A person can READ many things but must understand what is. And Yes canker is found in the VENT area. The navel area. I have even seen it in the EYE cere.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

The bird can't stay in equilibrium with that 90%. Bird can stay in equillibrium with small amounts of triches. That 90% your talking about will cause so much harm to the bird over the time until 10% is seen with naked eye that the damage to the organs will be irreversible. The bird will have the problem of recurring canker. The person will treat the bird only when the bird start to show the visible signs and until that point of time the bird and its organs would have lost its ability to respond to the canker meds. The probiotics and stuff will be of no avail if that stage is reached. 90% is not what the bird stays in equillibrium with. Canker can only be treated successfully if found in early stages unless it will keep coming back in wet form and one may never know until its too late. He will just keep medicating for other possible diseases. This won't help the bird,on the contrary will weaken the bird giving a chance to canker to do more and more damage and finally resulting in a dead bird. I'm not only reading things. This is true to my knowledge and tonns of personal experience with CANKER. One may google and read any link about canker. What will be the first line you would read? Canker is the greatest creepiest killer disease of pigeons and almost all pigeons have triches in them. I just can't seem to understand why someone would fail to get that???


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

And if you say "no canker is found in the navel" then I completely disagree. Navel canker is another form of canker which is less common. Yes ofcource canker can and will be found in eye cere and nasal passage.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jass SamOplay said:


> The bird can't stay in equilibrium with that 90%. Bird can stay in equillibrium with small amounts of triches. That 90% your talking about will cause so much harm to the bird over the time until 10% is seen with naked eye that the damage to the organs will be irreversible. The bird will have the problem of recurring canker. The person will treat the bird only when the bird start to show the visible signs and until that point of time the bird and its organs would have lost its ability to respond to the canker meds. The probiotics and stuff will be of no avail if that stage is reached. 90% is not what the bird stays in equillibrium with. Canker can only be treated successfully if found in early stages unless it will keep coming back in wet form and one may never know until its too late. He will just keep medicating for other possible diseases. This won't help the bird,on the contrary will weaken the bird giving a chance to canker to do more and more damage and finally resulting in a dead bird. I'm not only reading things. This is true to my knowledge and tonns of personal experience with CANKER. One may google and read any link about canker. What will be the first line you would read? Canker is the greatest creepiest killer disease of pigeons and almost all pigeons have triches in them. I just can't seem to understand why someone would fail to get that???


The 90 percent comes from your Post i just guoted it.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jass SamOplay said:


> And if you say "no canker is found in the navel" then I completely disagree. Navel canker is another form of canker which is less common. Yes ofcource canker can and will be found in eye cere and nasal passage.


I meant to put yes Not No. But still canker is found more in the throat. Or nasal are getting to the throat area.. And in fact Canker is rather easy off set. Where little to no problem is seen with it in a loft. Ferals well they have a hard short life.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jass SamOplay said:


> And if you say "no canker is found in the navel" then I completely disagree. Navel canker is another form of canker which is less common. Yes ofcource canker can and will be found in eye cere and nasal passage.


it is not another form it is just the sight where it was contracted.. usually babies in the nest where spillage of crop milk from canker parents it spills to the bottom of a nest bowl and into the navel.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> it is not another form it is just the sight where it was contracted.. usually babies in the nest where spillage of crop milk from canker parents it spills to the bottom of a nest bowl and into the navel.


Yup,you're true and when that happens,scientifically its classified as a FORM of canker e.g, navel canker causing a nodule on the navel which can confuse a layman with some other sickness


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

> There are oral,navel, and organ forms of*disease , which can appear 4 to 14 days from infection. In the oral form the yellow, cheesy lesions may invade the wind pipe and crop causing the bird to gape, and creating difficulty with breathing,eating and potentially with drinking . The navel form appears as a cheese-like crumbly swelling under the skin around the navel and develops when canker laden crop milk falls into the nest bowl, infecting the babies unhealed umbilicus *in the organ form the previous forms can infect various internal organs leaving visible lesions*


I've posted this info for others to read. I know you know that already. You may not call it a form but when it happens it actually develops itself in a form of canker. And I can post many link about it saying the same thing but as I say I not only read or told about it,I talk of it as happened in my eperience.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Yup,you're true and when that happens,scientifically its classified as a FORM of canker e.g, navel canker causing a nodule on the navel which can confuse a layman with some other sickness


there is only one form in pigeons Trichomonas gallinae.(cross fingers) there are other forms that infect humans and another in termites.... other animals too 

this form can have different strains.. deadly to mild. and can show in mucosa areas of the bird, its the same form, there are different areas of the bird's body the parasite can cause symptoms or show itself. that is not a form of it, but just an area.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jass SamOplay said:


> The bird can't stay in equilibrium with that 90%. Bird can stay in equillibrium with small amounts of triches. That 90% your talking about will cause so much harm to the bird over the time until 10% is seen with naked eye that the damage to the organs will be irreversible. The bird will have the problem of recurring canker. The person will treat the bird only when the bird start to show the visible signs and until that point of time the bird and its organs would have lost its ability to respond to the canker meds. The probiotics and stuff will be of no avail if that stage is reached. 90% is not what the bird stays in equillibrium with. Canker can only be treated successfully if found in early stages unless it will keep coming back in wet form and one may never know until its too late. He will just keep medicating for other possible diseases. This won't help the bird,on the contrary will weaken the bird giving a chance to canker to do more and more damage and finally resulting in a dead bird. I'm not only reading things. This is true to my knowledge and tonns of personal experience with CANKER. One may google and read any link about canker. What will be the first line you would read? Canker is the greatest creepiest killer disease of pigeons and almost all pigeons have triches in them. I just can't seem to understand why someone would fail to get that???



Wow! Someone who understands canker! Finally!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> there is only one form in pigeons Trichomonas gallinae. there are other forms that infect humans and another in termites.
> 
> this form can have different strains.. deadly to mild. and can show in mucosa areas of the bird, its the same form, there are different areas of the bird's body the parasite that can cause symptoms or show itself.


I don't wanna carry it. You're right with your agenda


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Wow! Someone who understands canker! Finally!


Thank you. I hope it might help other members not to take Canker lighty as it is assumed. Its a potentially creepy killer ailment if not treated timely.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> there is only one form in pigeons Trichomonas gallinae. there are other forms that infect humans and another in termites.
> 
> this form can have different strains.. deadly to mild. and can show in mucosa areas of the bird, its the same form, there are different areas of the bird's body the parasite can cause symptoms or show itself.


Your welcome to call TG as only one form. I would rather call it a species which has different strains worldwide which can affect pigeons in above said WAYS which I and others on net might prefer calling as FORMS to make things understandable. Of course in all cases the ailment is caused by TG but in different WAYS or FORMS which are localised,organ/wet and navel.

Its just like candida which can affect skin,digestive,respiratory track etc. The thing is the same Candida Albicans but it affects in different ways or forms and need a treatment best suited for that particular way or form by which a bird might be affected.
ThankYou


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

no one understands this parasite fully, if info is presented and it jives with someones opinions and same as what they read it's "understandable"... to them.
drugs alone will never control a canker problem. it is important to allow developing youngsters enough exposure to the organism that they can develop natural resistance"

we are not Doctors and scientist but some seem to think they are. --


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Your welcome to call TG as only one form. I would rather call it a species which has different strains worldwide which can affect pigeons in above said WAYS which I and others on net might prefer calling as FORMS to make things understandable. Of course in all cases the ailment is caused by TG but in different WAYS or FORMS which are localised,organ/wet and navel.
> 
> Its just like candida which can affect skin,digestive,respiratory track etc. The thing is the same Candida Albicans but it affects in different ways or forms and need a treatment best suited for that particular way or form by which a bird might be affected.
> ThankYou


no Sh**,, lol.. that is what I was saying there are different strains of it the same Trich that affects birds. this info on trich is getting repedative and loosing it's basic information.. which most all know already.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

spirit wings said:


> no one understands this parasite fully, if info is presented and it jives with how someones opinions and same as what they read it's "understanabe"... to them.
> drugs alone will never control a canker problem. it is important to allow developing youngsters enough exposure to the organism that they can develop natural resistance"
> 
> we are not Doctors and scientist but some seem to think they are. --





> no Sh**,, lol.. that is what I was saying there are different strains of it the same Trich that affects birds. this info on trich is getting repedative and loosing it's basic information.. which most all know already.


How's that for replies...? Marvellous
Bless you


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

take it or leave it.. my eyes are glazing over now.. lol.. I think this thread is come to end its usefullness.. or perhaps over usefullness and complicated postings.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If the thread is not useful to you, or seems to complicated, why not just stop reading it? Others may be interested in some of the information. You are right in that we are not Doctors or scientists. But wrong in saying that some think they are. But many have had enough dealings with it to recognize it when it comes up. If you have not, then you are lucky. But don't discount what we have learned about it, and what we know to be true, simply because you have been lucky enough not to have had to deal with it more.

And you seem to believe that everyone else knows all the info, but that too is incorrect. Many have no idea of what canker looks like when it is present. Many, like you believe that it must show in the throat in order to be treated. If you only treat when there are plaques in the throat, and have not learned to identify the different ways in which it presents itself, then many birds will be lost for lack of treatment. People need to know that, and to look for other signs when they have a sick bird. In a perfect world, a vet could be used to test and diagnose the disease, but in many cases that is just not going to happen. And while it is far better to do tests of the contents of a birds crop and such, if that cannot be done, then treating a bird that is presenting with the other symptoms is better than letting him die. I have had birds that looked like they were going to die, and treating for canker saved them. Even birds brought to the vet, and after testing, it was proven that it was canker. But it wasn't showing in the beak or throat. And that is what I am trying to get across to others that may have a bird with canker...............................that it doesn't always show in the throat. It OFTEN doesn't show in the throat. It does more in younger birds, but very often not in the older birds. Treating a sick bird, and having him live, is more important then worrying about using a medication when you don't need to.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> How old the bird is?
> What white and yellow plaques are you talking about? It can very well be candida and your bird may have canker and candida both.
> If your pigeon is a homer then 50mg,otherwise a highflyer pigeon would need 35mg per day. Yes you can start the med over again so that the bird can develop immunity. Treating the bird now is very important so that triches don't develop resistance.
> 
> ...


I am sorry for not giving the reply in time. Thanks for valuable advise. The bird is 3 yrs. old high flyer. It had white rash like substances both sides of the inside of the beak as well as yellow button like substance which look like canker. After administering flagyl, all the traces of bad things disappeared.A little bit white sticky substance were seen(people here says "kapas")which were removed. Now her mouth is clear. She is eating her own. But her beak is partially in open condition. what will be the possible cause? I have treated with Fluconazole @ 5 mg/kg for seven days for possible Candida without any improvement(have not used gentian violet). You are the right advisor to tell me next course of medicine, if required in this case.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

mkdas said:


> I am sorry for not giving the reply in time. Thanks for valuable advise. The bird is 3 yrs. old high flyer. It had white rash like substances both sides of the inside of the beak as well as yellow button like substance which look like canker. After administering flagyl, all the traces of bad things disappeared.A little bit white sticky substance were seen(people here says "kapas")which were removed. Now her mouth is clear. She is eating her own. But her beak is partially in open condition. what will be the possible cause? I have treated with Fluconazole @ 5 mg/kg for seven days for possible Candida without any improvement(have not used gentian violet). You are the right advisor to tell me next course of medicine, if required in this case.


Happy to hear that the bird's throat is clear and she's eating on its own. If her throat is clear now first probiotics and then b complex vitamins should be given. Then the bird should be observed. Canker cause swelling in trachea and can cause discomfort in breathing. So she should be allowed to recover from stress caused by meds and illness.

If you think there's some respiratory thing going on which is why she is breathing with open beak then she may be showing some other symptoms too. Heat and some sort of injury can also cause partially open beak breathing.

Has the bird been dewormed before? Because in my exp Gape worms can also cause open beak breathing.
But first I think the bird should be given supportive care to see if she's getting fine unless we have to treat for respiratory infection. IDK the "kapas" you're talking about and you said you removed it still sounds like candida to me. And candida can very well cause open beak breathing. Fluconazole on birds don't work as it works on mammals. Birds have shorter and efficient bodies which wears fluconazole away with feed and water. It should be given first thing in the morning on empty stomach and given time to let it work or I had great results when I gave it late in evening after removing the water source. But still if you wanna treat with tetracycline then you can use it. It will give clear results. If the breathing becomes normal then its respiratory if the problem persists or increases then its definitely candida.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Happy to hear that the bird's throat is clear and she's eating on its own. If her throat is clear now first probiotics and then b complex vitamins should be given. Then the bird should be observed. Canker cause swelling in trachea and can cause discomfort in breathing. So she should be allowed to recover from stress caused by meds and illness.
> 
> If you think there's some respiratory thing going on which is why she is breathing with open beak then she may be showing some other symptoms too. Heat and some sort of injury can also cause partially open beak breathing.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I am giving her pro biotic, vit.-A,calcium, improver etc. Let her 
be of her own for a few days without medication as you advised. I have dewormed her in March along with flock. If it is suspected candida,what medication is advisable. I can give flucon. in the evening as you said.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Fluconazole is probably the best drug we can have. Its cheaper than other anti fungal drugs and unlike ketoconazole it takes lesser course of time e.g, 10-12 days. Vitamin A is very important to fight off candida. I give 25 mg for first dose and later give 10mg per pigeon.
"Dabur Amfocan" also kills candida albicans. Nystatin comes in "Panalog" for dogs in our country. Amphotericin B also give great results to kill candida. Adding ACV to water also helps fight candida away. Fungilin would be another drug to cure candida.

But only fluconazole is readily available in our country. Rest of drugs aren't easy to get.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Are you sure fluconazole should be given for so many days? A vet told me to give for 3-4 days, saying even one day is enough for mild cases. Do you have any reference for the lenght of this treatment?

Also, have someone tried voriconazole on pigeons?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

AndreiS said:


> Are you sure fluconazole should be given for so many days? A vet told me to give for 3-4 days, saying even one day is enough for mild cases. Do you have any reference for the lenght of this treatment?
> 
> Also, have someone tried voriconazole on pigeons?


http://www.beautyofbirds.com/candida.html
In the link its advised for 7 days. Your vet might have told you to give for 3-4 days according to your situation.
I never trust vets completely unless they are well informed about pigeons. I only trust internet articles by those vets who are qualified and are pigeon fanciers themselves. Most vets treat pigeons like they treat other birds but pigeons and doves are different from other domestic birds. Most vets usually treat chicken,parrots and finches so they say that fluconazole is sufficient for 7 days. Parrots,finches,chicken etc eat insects and veggies in their diet so they can over come candida with fresh vitamins they get from their diet. And one keeps few to several parrots or other birds as pets. But pigeons are kept in flocks and they share resources and pigeons eat seed only diet. They can't overcome candida unless its treated for good number of days and if vitaminA is not administered and if the birds have compromised immune system.
You can't force pigeons to eat all veggies as their diet. You can hand feed them. Veggies but will they like and keep them? Pigeons are grain eaters and candida can become a huge problem in pigeons especially when they are put on antibiotics.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you for reply. In that link is about treatment with Nistatin, which is not systemic medicine (doesn't enter blood, only treats the crop mucosa) and often proved to meet resistence from candida (myself I failed using it effectively). 

Fluconazole is systemic and erradicates candida almost always. Anyway, I'm not sure 3-4 days will be enough, this is why I asked for some more reference, which I couldn't found googling.

Fortunately that bird keeps coming to my window (was here minutes ago) so I'm confident that if she/she feels bad, will enter appartment and I will have him/her under control.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Fluconazole is probably the best drug we can have. Its cheaper than other anti fungal drugs and unlike ketoconazole it takes lesser course of time e.g, 10-12 days. Vitamin A is very important to fight off candida. I give 25 mg for first dose and later give 10mg per pigeon.
> "Dabur Amfocan" also kills candida albicans. Nystatin comes in "Panalog" for dogs in our country. Amphotericin B also give great results to kill candida. Adding ACV to water also helps fight candida away. Fungilin would be another drug to cure candida.
> 
> But only fluconazole is readily available in our country. Rest of drugs aren't easy to get.


Thanks again for forwarding advise. The bird is not on medicine now a days and I will watch as to whether she is improving regarding partially open beak syndrome.You might be right that it is due to inflamaton and drugs. It is pertinent to mention here that actually she is not panting or suffering from rapid breathing. She simply open her beak as well as also during her feeding. She loves to eat boiled rice,diced carrot,beet root and spinach which shows that she prefers only soft foods now a days with exception only of home made protein rich DRIED bread(contains various lentils,black gram and calcium etc). I could not find Vitamin K which also says very good alongwith Vitamin A in the case of Candida. I regularly use ACV weekly two days for all pigeon round the year. Can we use PANALOG as subtitute of NAYSTATIN?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Wow she eats fruits and veggies. Cool
Yes Panalog contains nystatin but its a prescription drug. You may find it difficult to get it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Panalog isn't intended for internal use. It's for external use only.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Panalog is also available in tablet form and as oral suspension for internal use. But I say again its a prescription drug and should be used after consulting the vet


> http://www.vetinfo.com/triamcinolone-acetonide-for-dogs.html#b
> 
> Because of the wide range of uses of this medicine, it is available in a number of different forms. The most common is an injectable solution that is used for arthritis inflammation and joint pain. Panalog is a topical ointment that can be used for skin conditions, and there's also a tablet form of the drug and an oral suspension as well.


I've used the oral suspension in the past.
Google panalog oral suspension I'm sure you'll find more. Thanks


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well that's interesting. I thought it only came in the ointment. Never heard of the tablets before. Thanks.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

I have seen that suddenly pigeon starts rapid breathing exactly like after long flying condition. Within 3-4 hours died without losing body condition or showing any other symptoms. Autopsy is not possible due to lack of vet lab in our area. During this condition, I have checked inside the beak, it was pink-no lesion. Crop area was not swollen, and no feed or water inside the crop . No puffed up condition. Administered one dose Neodox Forte(Neomycin Sulphate & Doxicycline) availabe here in powdered form. Could it be any kind of poisioning or any thing else.Please advise.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Oh... so sorry to hear that you her!
The reason behind her death will remain mystery then... We can guess but can't reach a sure conclusion.
Sudden deaths are caused by salmonella,e.coli+ adeno virus or some other viral infection.

Neomycin can cause toxicity if over dosed.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Oh... so sorry to hear that you her!
> The reason behind her death will remain mystery then... We can guess but can't reach a sure conclusion.
> Sudden deaths are caused by salmonella,e.coli+ adeno virus or some other viral infection.
> 
> Neomycin can cause toxicity if over dosed.


No,no... It was not that pigeon we have discussed earlier. She is ok, eating full crop, except partially open beak. Out of curiosity, I cited one case to know the expert opinion as to what would be possible cause. I am sorry, I should have started a new thread. However, if it was salmonella, no disorientation,green loose poops for days; in case e.coli, no excessive thirst, no dehydration, no shooting green stool; if it was adeno virus, no yellow poops or vomiting. Previously have done antibiogram of the whole loft from a local lab. meant for dogs & cats. In routine culture, they said it was cocci. and 48 hrs. test says e.coli.I am at a loss that the pigeon did not give time for diagnosis and died.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Here in India we also have Bonna virus. Its victims can live with it for their entire life or can die in seconds. Bonna virus is not present in the US.

But probably if no other symptoms were showen sudden death is associated with above said ailments. Symptoms vary from bird to bird. The diseases not necessarily show all the same symptoms in every case. Symptoms depend on birds immune and other underlying secondary infections and birds ability to handle them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mkdas said:


> I have seen that suddenly pigeon starts rapid breathing exactly like after long flying condition. Within 3-4 hours died without losing body condition or showing any other symptoms. Autopsy is not possible due to lack of vet lab in our area. During this condition, I have checked inside the beak, it was pink-no lesion. Crop area was not swollen, and no feed or water inside the crop . No puffed up condition. Administered one dose Neodox Forte(Neomycin Sulphate & Doxicycline) availabe here in powdered form. Could it be any kind of poisioning or any thing else.Please advise.



Could have been E-Coli


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Could have been E-Coli


Thank for advise. If I want to treat the whole flock, what medicine which is soluble and appropriate with measurement? Secondly, two or three pairs are on the eggs, two squabs are 40/60 days old in the loft. Can they be treated along with the flock.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Usually Baytril, but not necessarily. But it would take a culture to find out if it is e-coli, and which drug it is sensitive to. You would have to treat everyone, if you treat.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Mkdas, until you're not sure that its e.coli I don't see the point in medicating the birds. The droppings of other birds must be tested before medicating them.

Doxycycline+neomycin sulphate

Ampicilin+tylan

Oxytetracycline+tylosin

are some of the combinations known to work against most strains of e.coli.

SULFACHLORPYRIDAZINE is a drug that kill most e.coli strains and is also a coccistat.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Mkdas, until you're not sure that its e.coli I don't see the point in medicating the birds. The droppings of other birds must be tested before medicating them.
> 
> Doxycycline+neomycin sulphate
> 
> ...


Thanks. Neo dox forte has been discontinued in Delhi market because the company has stopped production as I was told by the pharmacist.How ever I have two packet left with me.
Ampicilin+ tylan & Oxytetracycline+ tylosin (combination)are not available here. Separately Tylosin of one kg pack is available. Is it safe to use sulfa drug as I have not use before for so many inhibitions shown in various threads. A antibiogram of 48 hrs. report says E.Coli and frankly speaking, I have doubt about the authenticity of the report. The symptoms are- suddenly stopped eating,puffed up, sour smelling khaki green poops, lameness-walking with the help of wings. I have previously cured isolated case by using flazyl,Neodox forte and recently introduced Nemoclox-D(Amoxycillin + Dicloxacillin oral powder-Vet.) manufactured by TTK Pharma. What should I do, Please advise as per the symptoms I described above.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I haven't had problems with sulpha drug. If neodox forte is discontinued check out for venky's vendox-N. It available in 50grm packing for not much but 60rs.

Salmonella can be hard to find if present in loft and the symptoms you describe points towards salmonella and canker. IME e.coli is very hard to recognise by seeing symptoms only and its most difficult to get rid of if right drug to which the strain is sensitive to,is not used. E.coli can show a wide range of symptoms which depends on bird to bird and loft to loft. For me e.coli is the most deceptive of them all ailments. It can even cause head bending and balance disorders when birds are extremely affected.


The way which I use to check e.coli is I feed the birds required amount of feed in evening. Give the birds water all night. If the birds have seeds in the crop in morning means some seeds are still there when most seeds are digested...to me, it means "retention of seeds in crop" which is prime symptom of e.coli. I do this and check for 2-3 days if I find retention of seeds in crop for 2-3 days everyday then on 2nd or 3rd day I give each bird a small ball of (raw)turmeric powder made with water in the evening several hours after feeding them. If the nearly all seeds are digested next morning then its e.coli(possibly with yeast infection too).


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> I haven't had problems with sulpha drug. If neodox forte is discontinued check out for venky's vendox-N. It available in 50grm packing for not much but 60rs.
> 
> Salmonella can be hard to find if present in loft and the symptoms you describe points towards salmonella and canker. IME e.coli is very hard to recognise by seeing symptoms only and its most difficult to get rid of if right drug to which the strain is sensitive to,is not used. E.coli can show a wide range of symptoms which depends on bird to bird and loft to loft. For me e.coli is the most deceptive of them all ailments. It can even cause head bending and balance disorders when birds are extremely affected.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I have a gut feeling that there is an underlying problem in the loft, which bother me as occasionally one or two pigeon fall ill, not all pigeon at a time which I treat with flazyl and N.Dox. and cured. It is also a amazing fact I observed that only female are falling ill. Why is this so? I want a solution so that their immunity may enhance. I will try to give them turmeric ball in the evening as advised.
Kindly tell me:
Which brand of metronidazole in liquid should be used and dose per litre in water, for how many days.
which brand of liver detoxification be used and its dose for how many days.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Female lay eggs and that cost them dearly on their bodies so they are more prone to diseases.
Flagyl and pfizer sells metronidazole in tablet,syrup and injectable form. But by giving the med dissolved in water you never know how much dose a pigeon is getting? Will that kill protozoa or help them bulid resistance. Metronidazole works best for treatment given individualy in oral form. The injectable form can also be given in oral form but that may induce vomitting especially if overdosed. With metronidazole you can give a broad spectrum antibiotic also for better results. Metronidazole given in water is good for prevention not treatment,the dose ranges from 600 to 1500 mg per litre depending on the situation.

Liver meds comes in big packings so I use vet liv.52 not Liv52 that is for humans. It will be very good to give liver tonic for 5 days after treatment is over.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The problem with trying to diagnose a disease is that many of the symptoms, can be brought on by many of the diseases. So you are going to see the same symptoms with different diseases. You really can't be sure without tests. The crop not emptying can be from things other than e-coli. Even canker can cause that.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Yes you're true Jay3 that different diseases can show similar symptoms that's why I was sharing my way of getting the idea of the disease to try to differentiate between canker and e.coli. IME if canker builds up so much that it causes crop statis then pigeons would eat less and drink more and more and poop green watery droppings but in e.coli pigeons will eat,digest yet "retain some seeds" in crops and will poop some mushy droppings. On the day turmeric is given they digest all seeds as most strains of e.coli dislike turmeric. This is the difference I was trying to bring to the light.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Female lay eggs and that cost them dearly on their bodies so they are more prone to diseases.
> Flagyl and pfizer sells metronidazole in tablet,syrup and injectable form. But by giving the med dissolved in water you never know how much dose a pigeon is getting? Will that kill protozoa or help them bulid resistance. Metronidazole works best for treatment given individualy in oral form. The injectable form can also be given in oral form but that may induce vomitting especially if overdosed. With metronidazole you can give a broad spectrum antibiotic also for better results. Metronidazole given in water is good for prevention not treatment,the dose ranges from 600 to 1500 mg per litre depending on the situation.
> 
> Liver meds comes in big packings so I use vet liv.52 not Liv52 that is for humans. It will be very good to give liver tonic for 5 days after treatment is over.


I want to treat the whole flock as preventive on the basis of the symptoms. I am not taking eggs or squabs since July 2013 from my breading stock and the problems are with them only. They are not in stress. They are not over crowded, good ventilation, water change two time regularly,scrapping and cleaning daily,ACV weeky two times, they are not vitamin or mineral deficient. They are robust, but suddenly one or two of them fall ill and they respond with the treatment with flazyl and Neo-Dox Forte. So I was toying with the idea of flock treatment with these two medicines as preventive. That is why I sought advise as to whether water soluble metronidazole with combination of Neo-Dox forte can be administered without any harm. Further, I regularly use Liv-52(Vet) round the year. I wanted to know about the similar product like "Sedochol" available abroad. I have not find the combination of sorbitol,choline chloride and methionine here for liver detoxification.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

There is product specially designed for poultry called VXL MIX - TR feed supplement. I think it has what you looking for. Google its detail.
Have you used Verol, it has amino acids + multivitamins. Enriched with antioxidants. Better than other available products

There is also a product liver which contains yeast too by the name of "Brotone" but its alchohol based. (Candida affected pigeons can't be put on it)

Stress is a common factor in breeders and trichomonads won't let a chance go by to build up so you must treat for canker. If you've tried neodox before so now you can try amoxicillin/enrofloxacin this time. Can give it in morning with feed and can give metro in the evening.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> There is product specially designed for poultry called VXL MIX - TR feed supplement. I think it has what you looking for. Google its detail.
> Have you used Verol, it has amino acids + multivitamins. Enriched with antioxidants. Better than other available products
> 
> There is also a product liver which contains yeast too by the name of "Brotone" but its alchohol based. (Candida affected pigeons can't be put on it)
> ...


I have used Verol. I try to give all kind of vitamins available in the market alternately to cover the deficiency, if any. 
I have not treated my breeders loft with any medicine yet. I only deworm them six monthly. If anybody fall ill, I treat them individually.
Can I start Neodox in the morning and metro in the evening. Measurement and days of treatment be advised. Further, will it effect the squabs one/two months old as well as those are on eggs?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

The birds who are on eggs won't be affected but the squabs will get overdose of med if you dissolve neodox in water. If there is no emergency then I will strongly recommend to treat for canker first. Because three meds at once e.g, neomycin sulphate+doxycycline+metronidazole can induce great stress on birds and stress of medicine can cause trich build up. So in your case I would take it slow and treat every bird individually with metronidazole LATE in the evening so that adults don't give feed to the young after being medicated as they will give med to the young with feed. I will give metro for a good 7-10 days to adults and 10-12 days to squabs because the symptoms you described sounds like canker to me and you haven't treated your breeders for canker for long.

Neodox is basically designed for early chick morality so one or two months old which are self feeding themselves won't be affected negatively though can come under some stress. Like I said before I would use enrofloxacin this time as neodox has already been used. As there are squabs/young in the loft I would probably use amoxicillin instead of enrofloxacin because enrofloxacin can hinder the growth of squabs.


Metronidazole can be safely given with enrofloxacin/amoxicillin or doxycycline but not with neomycin sulphate because neomycin has toxicity issues. You cannnot give neodox in morning and metro in evening because when you give neodox in water the birds are supposed to be given medicated water only, not plain water until the 5 days course is over.


mkdas; said:


> I have not treated my breeders loft with any medicine yet. I only deworm them six monthly. If anybody fall ill, I treat them individually.


This is why you're facing problems. If one bird is ill then its assumed it has spread the disease in the loft already by defecating and sharing water and feed resources. So when you treat or deworm,pls make sure you medicate ALL the birds at SAME time. And then wash and disinfect the loft thoroughly.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> The birds who are on eggs won't be affected but the squabs will get overdose of med if you dissolve neodox in water. If there is no emergency then I will strongly recommend to treat for canker first. Because three meds at once e.g, neomycin sulphate+doxycycline+metronidazole can induce great stress on birds and stress of medicine can cause trich build up. So in your case I would take it slow and treat every bird individually with metronidazole LATE in the evening so that adults don't give feed to the young after being medicated as they will give med to the young with feed. I will give metro for a good 7-10 days to adults and 10-12 days to squabs because the symptoms you described sounds like canker to me and you haven't treated your breeders for canker for long.
> 
> Neodox is basically designed for early chick morality so one or two months old which are self feeding themselves won't be affected negatively though can come under some stress. Like I said before I would use enrofloxacin this time as neodox has already been used. As there are squabs/young in the loft I would probably use amoxicillin instead of enrofloxacin because enrofloxacin can hinder the growth of squabs.
> 
> ...


Thank for given elaborate understanding about medication. You are right in every aspect. However, I would always prefer to give the birds the best possible environment and feed, so that they can counter any infection through their own built up immunity. i have also read about toxity of neomicin sulphate and also for not its efficacy of assimilation in the body. You suggested to start metronizole and amoxycillin in water. I want to clear that whether I should put the medicines together in the water in the morning and the evening simultaneously in the same ratio of 500 to 1500 mg/ltr. in the case of metro. and amoxy.of the same ratio? The water vessel contains water for one time is 2.5 ltr. I give water to times. If I give medicines for two times then what will be the ratio. You are right that individual treatment is the best cure. But I have atleast 70 pigeons in the breading loft and it is somehow not possible for me to treat individually. Therefore it is a compulsion to treat the whole loft through the water source.
Further I want to say that there is no squab presently raising by the breeders. Only two squabs of my choicest breeders came out and they are of more than one month old.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

If there's no young in the nest being fed by parents then its very good,less troubles regarding the choice and dosage of medicines.

Okay so here you have to decide whether you wanna use amoxicillin or enrofloxacin. I advised amoxi before but now that you've made clear that there is no young in the nest,I would now recommend ENROFLOXACIN for 2 reasons.1)enro has deeper tissue penetration and it may deal with respiratory issues too if any 2) amoxi dose is 50mg per pigeon whereas enro works good when dosed at only 8-12mg per pigeon.

Many many years ago I met a zoo warden and asked him how he give med to so many birds of different varieties. He said he never used tablet or syrup form of any med. He said he always use powder and injectable form. Most Injectable form of meds for mammals by "Bayers" are safe to be used in poultry orally. So he advised to give one med in water and other with feed. I have followed his advice since then and had great results.

Metronidazole tabs are not soluble in water, so In your situation I will put INJECTABLE metronidazole in water at 700mg per litre and will not add more water until the medicated water is nearly fully consumed. Everytime I would add water I would add it with proper dosage.
I would give enrofloxacin via feed. Enrofloxacin is available in powder and injectable form. Its also available in liquid form(but in big packings). I would measure the feed which my birds READILY consume in one go without leftovers. I would take that amount of feed and mix the required dosage of enrofloxacine to it and give it to birds in evening when they're most hungry so that they consume all the feed at once with required dosage. This is how they give enrofloxacin in poultry farms.
Or you can do the opposite according to the availablity of meds and give metro with feed and enro in water. There are other methods too but this is what I would prefer.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> If there's no young in the nest being fed by parents then its very good,less troubles regarding the choice and dosage of medicines.
> 
> Okay so here you have to decide whether you wanna use amoxicillin or enrofloxacin. I advised amoxi before but now that you've made clear that there is no young in the nest,I would now recommend ENROFLOXACIN for 2 reasons.1)enro has deeper tissue penetration and it may deal with respiratory issues too if any 2) amoxi dose is 50mg per pigeon whereas enro works good when dosed at only 8-12mg per pigeon.
> 
> ...


Here enrofloxacin in powdered form is not available but in liquid form in small bottle is available. I have not yet search for injectable metronidazole from the market. I hope it will be available as it is, I presume, for human use. In this case, what should I do, because I can not mix the medicine in the feed as you advised.
Oh! I forgot to tell you that the other female pigeon, whose beak was pertially open and left for observation without medicine for a week. She is perfectly ok, eating of her own and appears to be alright. But her open beak condition remain the same. You have suspected Candida. What is your advise in this matter? Thank you.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

If metro is not available in injectable form then you can fine powder the metro tabs. Then wet the required amount of feed with little water and mix well the powdered metro in it. You can give enro in water.

If one uses antibiotics then it can trigger candida overgrowth. So after antibiotics candida needs to be taken care of.High levels of VitaminA and probiotics are very much needed by the bird to fight off candida.

I'm happy that the other pigeon is fine now. Is there a chance that a deformity is causing her beak to open?


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> If metro is not available in injectable form then you can fine powder the metro tabs. Then wet the required amount of feed with little water and mix well the powdered metro in it. You can give enro in water.
> 
> If one uses antibiotics then it can trigger candida overgrowth. So after antibiotics candida needs to be taken care of.High levels of VitaminA and probiotics are very much needed by the bird to fight off candida.
> 
> I'm happy that the other pigeon is fine now. Is there a chance that a deformity is causing her beak to open?


I could not find Metro in injectable form, therefore I follow your advise. Should I give medicines both the time for 10 days? Will it not doubling the dose? For example, if I give 1500 mg Metro in the feed in the morning and again the same quantity of dose in the evening which comes to a total of 3000 mg. or you mean to say that 1500 mg in total for both the times. Please advise.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Metronidazole stays in the system for 24 hours. So it need to be given once in 24 hours. As you're planning to use tablets now,calculate how much tablets you would need to make the dose equivalent to 35mg per pigeon. Since you're now giving metro in feed,you would need five 500mg tabs for your 70 pigeons given once per day/24 hours regularly for 7-10 days


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Metronidazole stays in the system for 24 hours. So it need to be given once in 24 hours. As you're planning to use tablets now,calculate how much tablets you would need to make the dose equivalent to 35mg per pigeon. Since you're now giving metro in feed,you would need five 500mg tabs for your 70 pigeons given once per day/24 hours regularly for 7-10 days


Thanks. Please tell me as to what will be the dose per day in r/o Enrofloxacin as I have got it in liquid.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Correct Enrofloxacin dosage depend on how much water your birds are drinking (which is proportional to how much they are affected by disease).
•If the birds are drinking more water, then the dosage is 250mg per 4 litres of water.
•If birds are drinking normally dosage is 350-400mg per 4 litres.
•If the birds are drinking less then dosage is 600 mg in 4 litres of water for flock treatment


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Correct Enrofloxacin dosage depend on how much water your birds are drinking (which is proportional to how much they are affected by disease).
> •If the birds are drinking more water, then the dosage is 250mg per 4 litres of water.
> •If birds are drinking normally dosage is 350-400mg per 4 litres.
> •If the birds are drinking less then dosage is 600 mg in 4 litres of water for flock treatment


Thanks. I will adjust the dose as you advised. 
Sorry, Not to answer about the other female pigeon who has been recovered but her beak has not in closed indication yet. Otherwise she is very active and eating moderate. Do you think, I should medicate her. There is no injury or lesion 
in her mouth as I presume by observing it.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Well, to tell truly what I feel, why would she breath with open beak if she's okay....

In summers weak birds would pant. Its really sunny here for few days and temp is 38C. My birds aren't panting at all. But I have rescued few birds from my friends' loft. They are sick and do pant heavily in afternoon(caged indoors). Point is maybe weakness is the reason your hen is panting or she must be showing some other symptoms which you are oblivious of. Pls keep her isolated and observe her until she recovers.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Is she panting, or is her beak just not closing right, as can happen when a bird has pox or canker that has affected the beak? She had had canker, didn't she? Maybe the beak has been affected by it, and is just not going to close. Pictures?


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Is she panting, or is her beak just not closing right, as can happen when a bird has pox or canker that has affected the beak? She had had canker, didn't she? Maybe the beak has been affected by it, and is just not going to close. Pictures?


you are right. She has had canker. She is out of it I presume. She is eating and agile as well as alert.Keeping her in isolation yet. If it is not curable, then what would be the possible cause for partial opening of beak because canker was in side the throat and problem is on the beak? Please enlighten me.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Well, to tell truly what I feel, why would she breath with open beak if she's okay....
> 
> In summers weak birds would pant. Its really sunny here for few days and temp is 38C. My birds aren't panting at all. But I have rescued few birds from my friends' loft. They are sick and do pant heavily in afternoon(caged indoors). Point is maybe weakness is the reason your hen is panting or she must be showing some other symptoms which you are oblivious of. Pls keep her isolated and observe her until she recovers.


hi! You might be right. She is kept in the shades and sun not bothering her.She has gain weight and happy. But actually I am observing that she is not panting, only like as a habit, as it look like, she never close her beak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post a picture?


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## bzagor (Feb 2, 2013)

haha no problem! thanks all you guys for the advice- regardless of the differences in opinion, it is great to see the pigeon passion manifest!


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## hamlet (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello. Do we know the breed, the number of pigeons, and the living space area of the pigeons? I am thinking they may be aggressive pigeons that require more space, therefore they are under constant, unnecessary stress.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> Can you post a picture?


I will try to post a picture tomorrow(28.5.2014) positively.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

hamlet said:


> Hello. Do we know the breed, the number of pigeons, and the living space area of the pigeons? I am thinking they may be aggressive pigeons that require more space, therefore they are under constant, unnecessary stress.


They are in total 70 high flyers. The living space is 12 feet long, 10 feet wide and height is 7 feet. They have flying pen, where they stay there most of the day at their will. In the evening, after the feed, they are closed in their living space. The loft is draft free and good ventilated. The loft is kept clean on every day basis. The problem started after a very unusual long spell of rainy season with humidity reached upto 90-98%. They are my breading stock. I have not taken any squab this year. I have no extra space to separate male and female. Male by nature chase their female to lay eggs and that might cause stress. The diagnosis is either E.Coli or Canker. I never treat this loft as a whole with any medicine till date. Only dewormed them six monthly and give them the best possible food, vitamin and supplements regularly.The females are the only victim in this case. This is the first time I am facing this problem after so many years. I am wondering that I might be wrong some where in management of the loft. I have given my minus points.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you may get more fresh responses if you start a new thread ....with your problem titled there.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Mkdas,what is the feed and grit your giving? Is your feed too high in protein?

Please do tell us about the results after treating with metro and enro later if birds show improvement.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

I agree with spirit wings. You must get your own specific thread started. Actually I always wanted to say that msg Skyeking to part your posts from where you started posting in this thread into a new thread.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Mkdas,what is the feed and grit your giving? Is your feed too high in protein?
> 
> Please do tell us about the results after treating with metro and enro later if birds show improvement.


Hi! still the medicine is on. I will post you the result. As I have told you that they are healthy & not showing any discomfort or looking like that they are ill, so it is a sort of preventive to correct the situation.
I am giving 2-5% protein on an average to all pigeon. During breeding time increase it upto 10-15%. Thanks for your concern. All you have really in depth knowledge about birds which is really appreciable. 
As you people advised, I will start a new thread in the heading of Coccidiosis-II Please keep in touch as I want to discuss a typical issue which I want to know for a long time.


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## mkdas (Jan 8, 2011)

Jass SamOplay said:


> I agree with spirit wings. You must get your own specific thread started. Actually I always wanted to say that msg Skyeking to part your posts from where you started posting in this thread into a new thread.


Ok. I will start a new thread with heading Coccidiosis-II.
However, a last query as to how to post a picture. Jay 3 asked for a picture of the pigeon who has open beak problem. I have loaded the picture in the computer and while try to send it in the thread, it ask for URL. What is to be typed in that column and what is the steps to put the picture in the particular thread?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

mkdas said:


> Ok. I will start a new thread with heading Coccidiosis-II.
> However, a last query as to how to post a picture. Jay 3 asked for a picture of the pigeon who has open beak problem. I have loaded the picture in the computer and while try to send it in the thread, it ask for URL. What is to be typed in that column and what is the steps to put the picture in the particular thread?


this is Bzore's thread, he started it. just title YOUR own thread with "illness need opinions." post your pictures there. then this thread can go away... please.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

mkdas said:


> Ok. I will start a new thread with heading Coccidiosis-II.
> However, a last query as to how to post a picture. Jay 3 asked for a picture of the pigeon who has open beak problem. I have loaded the picture in the computer and while try to send it in the thread, it ask for URL. What is to be typed in that column and what is the steps to put the picture in the particular thread?


All in the FAQ

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_imattach


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

spirit wings said:


> this is Bzore's thread, he started it. just title YOUR own thread with "illness need opinions." post your pictures there. then this thread can go away... please.



Looking back, it's been pretty messed up almost from the start 

Maybe we should have a thread on diagnosis vs guesswork, and independently documented evidence vs anecdotal evidence (or 'everybody knows')!

Time to close it and let anyone who has a specific problem start their own thread instead of confusing everyone.


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