# treating flock for trich/canker



## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

I feed a flock just opposite my home and it seems as though trich/canker may be spreading through the flock. So far I've picked up four birds with it. I've been treating them individually but it certainly isn't practical and I fear reinfection upon release. I'd like to treat them as a flock but the treatment in the water simply won't work in this case. It would be difficult/impossible to get them to drink from a common source on a busy streetcorner not to mention it's been raining too often here. Medication on the seeds would most assuredly work. I saw a post that suggested coating seeds in oil so that the treatment will stick to it. Has anyone else tried this and was it effective? What type of oil would be best? Something neutral like sunflower, safflower or canola? And what has been your experience with the actual medication? Individually, I use Spartrix and Ronsec but would appreciate any recommendations for a mass treatment powder.
Alternatively, has anyone treated feral flocks with a different method that was effective?
Thanks in advance for your help.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I certainly understand your dilemna.

I think it is a great idea, but I haven't ever seen any over the seed treatment.

If they stay long enough to eat on a busy street source, is it possible to condition them to drink in the same area, from a bowl of water treated with ACV? It might be worth it to try, because pigeons drink right after they eat. So, if you leave seed for them and can stay with them until they have eaten and had a drink that would help. 

The apple cider vinegar would at least create an environment unfavorable for canker. It would not be advisable to try to treat with meds, because they might not get enough to do any good and that in itself would not be good as it would allow them to build a resistance to the drug. With medication,you have to be in control of it, as it has to be specific dose for specific time.


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

If I were to attempt treatment with ACV, what ratio would I use? I could try to get them to drink from a bowl but as I said, it's been raining so often (with more to come through the weekend) that I fear they simply would opt for puddles or the gutter. And many people come by walking their dogs even early in the morning when I feed that I was assuming the dogs would probably drink the water placed in a bowl.
As for the medication, aren't racing pigeon flocks sometimes treated with medication in a common water source rather than individually? There must be some leeway as far as exact dosage. That's what I was thinking of and the post I'd read seemed to be suggesting using the water soluable powder on the oiled seeds rather than in the water. 
I feel compelled to do something despite the fact that they may not get the correct dosage and being aware that they may build up a resistance to the meds. I cannot simply wait until they become visibly ill. As I said, treating the birds individually isn't practical for me but I also couldn't possibly ignore the ill and starving birds. And releasing the successfully treated birds back into the infected flock would be a vicious circle. What do you think?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

For treatment with ACV use 2 tablespoons per gallon of water.

The only issue with using the medication would be that if they were not drinking the medicated water all day, as the domestic homing pigeons do. We have total control of the dosage. In the wild, they might use other drinking sources, which would mean they are getting the recommended treatment dose.

I myself do not know if the powder treatment over the seed would work. Let's hear from other members...


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, it seems that no one else has any suggestions. I do appreciate your input and will give some of your advice a try. Wish me luck.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Rshaud, 

Trich is very common in the warmer months. How many birds are in the flock? I know you said it would be difficult to do a water treatment, but chances are that they are infecting themselves via a shared water source already. If you could figure out what that source might be, you could add the prophy meds (leaving aside debate about whether they should be treated this way)/ACV there. 

Jennifer


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

is there any way you can"isolate"their drinking water,perhaps supply a large bowl of clean water daily near the feeding place and add the meds that way,even something such as a washing up bowl(plastic)may be an idea


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

forgive my inexperience with this but, if you treat the birds and are unable to ensure that each bird receives the correct dose for the correct amount of time, you would at best succeed in eliminating only the weakest strains of the trich causing the canker, leaving behind the "stronger" more resistant organisms to flourish, re-infect the flock, and ultimately outnumber the "weaker" strains. 

I would think as difficult as it may be, what is safest for the flock is to treat birds individually as needed, when they can be given the proper dose. (be it 1 pill of Spartrix or whatever)

I know you mean well, but I would really think about the long term implications of treating canker this way.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You'd never be able to treat the whole flock individually. Spartrix should actually be given 1 pill for three days. Even if you could catch them all once, you'd never catch them for the other two doses. You'd need an aviary or somewhere to keep them for a few days. And ACV in the water, they'd probably ignore it and go somewhere else where they know they can get water. This is really a dilemma. I can understand why you want to try it in the feed. It must be awful, and very frustrating, to see them getting sick one by one, and unable to help. I wish you luck. If you do find a way, keep us posted as to the results.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can coat the seed sparsely with olive oil just enough to make stick with 20% powdered Metrondidazole at 2 teaspoons per every 2lbs of seed for 5 days. 
No you can't control the amount each bird gets in this situation and that's an issue even with the large number of Pigeons some of us keep but in this case, it's doing the best you can.
Go for it!


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

The manufacturer of Spartrix says one pill per pigeon for one day. Where did you read to treat for 3 days?

Their clinical studies are available for review online and all of the trials listed concluded with a one pill for one day treatment. I've heard from a few vets to follow it up 30 days later as a precaution, but don't see anywhere to treat for 3 consecutive days.

http://www.betterchem.com/vet/carnidazole.htm

(they do also say that no ill-effects were shown when birds were "overdosed", so I doubt you can really do any harm by repeating for three days, it's just that apparently a one pill dose would be effective in eliminating the organisms)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

karijo said:


> The manufacturer of Spartrix says one pill per pigeon for one day. Where did you read to treat for 3 days?
> 
> Their clinical studies are available for review online and all of the trials listed concluded with a one pill for one day treatment. I've heard from a few vets to follow it up 30 days later as a precaution, but don't see anywhere to treat for 3 consecutive days.
> 
> ...


One pill doesn't work no matter what the manufacturer says. In my early days rehabbing, I lost many birds with the old '1 day plan'.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For preventative---one pill. For cure--3 pills. Sometimes it takes more. I have read it in various articles. When I find it again, I'll post it.


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## karijo (Apr 11, 2006)

Wouldn't it be nice if some wonderful avian vet would write a book backed by actual scientific study and clinical trials to officially set in stone the appropriate dosing and usage of all the different medications available based on the weight of the bird being treated, etc, for pigeon fanciers!?!

The ambiguity drives me crazy!
Like I said, I am relatively inexperienced with canker - and wish there was more specificity out there with how much to use of what and when etc. Hrmph.

(if you read those trial results I posted they actually do claim repeatedly that it cures/eliminates trich in the one pill dosage. I'm not saying it's correct - I am just saying that's what the manufacturer claims their results to be. "articles" are helpful, but I am more interested in actual scientific research done on the proper dosing. unfortunately, articles are often nothing more than personal experience and/or hearsay)


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

There is virtually no way that one dose of Spartrix is going to be enough to cure a bad canker infection. I've dosed for at least a week for bad cases.

Jennifer


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually, the formulary in Clinical Avian Medicine does just that and even tells you what the dosing amount is based on, i.e., a rating system that includes anecdotal dosings as well as clinical studies. The formulary includes a 'key' that tells you the basis for every posted dosing amount.

I agree w/Jenfer, that the correct dosing time frame would be 5 days. In some really difficult strains, it may be given simutaneously w/one of the other Nitroimidazole family members. In extreme cases, I have had to treat the lump of canker topically internally and where it has 'eaten' through externally. For internal treatment of the canker nodule, drizzling a small amount over the canker nodule is helpful to a quicker reduction in size of the lesion in addition to the systemic treatment via water or by pill. Metronidazole comes in a creme that can be
applied externally in cases where the canker has eaten all the way through to the outside.

Some strains of trichomonas may require follow up treatments 2-3 weeks after the initial treatment.

fp




karijo said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if some wonderful avian vet would write a book backed by actual scientific study and clinical trials to officially set in stone the appropriate dosing and usage of all the different medications available based on the weight of the bird being treated, etc, for pigeon fanciers!?!
> 
> The ambiguity drives me crazy!
> Like I said, I am relatively inexperienced with canker - and wish there was more specificity out there with how much to use of what and when etc. Hrmph.
> ...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

karijo said:


> "articles" are helpful, but I am more interested in actual scientific research done on the proper dosing. unfortunately, articles are often nothing more than personal experience and/or hearsay)



Well, ya know what, I'd rather go with personal experience, as that means that these people have tried the manufacturers dose, and found it not to work. I myself have dosed birds with it, and one pill did nothing. Apparently you have been lucky enough not to have had it in your birds. I hope you never do, but if you do, YOU try the one pill dose, and see if your bird gets better, or worse. Sometimes, 3 pills don't even cure it. Like anything else, and any other med, it depends on the severity of the desease.

And as far as her trying to treat the flock, better to try, then to stand back and do nothing. 
.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

feralpigeon said:


> Metronidazole comes in a creme that can be
> applied externally in cases where the canker has eaten all the way through to the outside.
> 
> Some strains of trichomonas may require follow up treatments 2-3 weeks after the initial treatment.
> ...


I didn't know that it came in a creme. Where do you get that? At the vet?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> I didn't know that it came in a creme. Where do you get that? At the vet?


Yes, in a creme put out by Fougera, seems they also have a lotion and gel as well. When I've put time into finding the product online, I was able to find it purchasable w/out a prescription. The tube I have now was given to me by another rehabber here locally.

Here are some links w/more information on the products:

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkj5pK...w.fougera.com/news/release_detail.asp?id=1049

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkj5pK...ww.fougera.com/products/documents/1218.PI.pdf

I think it's a handy item to have on hand because Metronidazole, like the other family members is also an antibiotic. It's good to have an antibiotic and antiprotozoal topical creme because there's no damage incurred to the feathers. 

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the information. I'll check them out.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

karijo said:


> ........... if you treat the birds and are unable to ensure that each bird receives the correct dose for the correct amount of time, you would at best succeed in eliminating only the weakest strains of the trich causing the canker, leaving behind the "stronger" more resistant organisms to flourish, re-infect the flock, and ultimately outnumber the "weaker" strains.
> 
> ..........


I'm excerpting this part of your quote because I think it's a good part of the answer to the question of dosing for canker w/only one pill for a day. One will breed resistance into the Trichomonas in the loft which most birds carry in
a state of equilibrium. Another part of the answer is the medication itself,
is not just a medication for parasitical protozoans, but also this family of 
medications serves as a good anaerobic antibacterial. Underdosing could result in negating the medicine's ability to be used effectively in companion
medication situations where for instance, dosing w/two antibiotics is desirable. Dimetridazole and Ronidazole are both dosed for 5 days and Ronidazole is sometimes given for 7 days.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

rshaud said:


> I feed a flock just opposite my home and it seems as though trich/canker may be spreading through the flock. So far I've picked up four birds with it. I've been treating them individually but it certainly isn't practical and I fear reinfection upon release. I'd like to treat them as a flock but the treatment in the water simply won't work in this case. It would be difficult/impossible to get them to drink from a common source on a busy streetcorner not to mention it's been raining too often here. Medication on the seeds would most assuredly work. I saw a post that suggested coating seeds in oil so that the treatment will stick to it. Has anyone else tried this and was it effective? What type of oil would be best? Something neutral like sunflower, safflower or canola? And what has been your experience with the actual medication? Individually, I use Spartrix and Ronsec but would appreciate any recommendations for a mass treatment powder.
> Alternatively, has anyone treated feral flocks with a different method that was effective?
> Thanks in advance for your help.


I would go for it as well even in the face of possibly not being able to guarantee the seed consumption of each bird. Metronidazole come in a powder by DAC that you can probably get at most of the Pigeon Supply Houses listed in the Resource section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/

Here's the one for the supply houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-supply-houses-usa-amp-australia-only-9455.html

If you get the Metronidazole powder (the package says 2 teaspoons per 2 pounds of seed for five days consecutively. This is seed that is lightly oiled
so that the powder will stick. Folks sometimes describe the lightly oiled as looking somewhat like a copper penny....some sheen but not needing sunglasses to view it.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

feralpigeon said:


> If you get the Metronidazole powder (the package says 2 teaspoons per 2 pounds of seed for five days consecutively. This is seed that is lightly oiled
> so that the powder will stick. Folks sometimes describe the lightly oiled as looking somewhat like a copper penny....some sheen but not needing sunglasses to view it.
> 
> fp


Yes, Charis has already posted this amount of medication for the seed.
Thanks.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> Yes, Charis has already posted this amount of medication for the seed.
> Thanks.


Yup, I was verifying and explaining further how it is done, thanks.

fp


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your responses. Trich is very frustrating. One of the birds died last evening gasping for breath. It is a helpless feeling, being unable to intervene. Alternatively, I released one of the birds last week who'd recovered quite nicely.
I'm working on these birds with the assistance of Wild Bird Fund. They recommend the Spartrix for five days, a two day break, then a course of Ronsec. They used to throw in a course of Trichocure for good measure but it seems to be no longer available in this country.
I will try your recommendation on dosing the seed. While the dosage may be imprecise, standing by doing nothing is not an option here.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Go for it! Please let us know how it goes. Good luck. I hope you are able to help these poor guys. This way should at least help some of them if not all.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You can buy that product here...

http://www.jluccheseloft.com/ecart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=200


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis, where do you find these websites? I notice that the Tricho Plus comes in packets of powder that you can use in water, or in the food.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, Trichocure is Ronidazole in a pill form. I get Vetafarm's Ronivet-4-Pigeons
from Jedd's which is 12% strength:

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?category=Medicine+>>+Canker:Ronidazole&no=740&searchpath=7527970

Jedd's only carries a 500g container, but you could get a smaller container
@ this site:

http://www.thebirdcottage.com/shop-med-ronivet2.html

When I googled Trichocure, there were several links that came up where 
it can be purchased, but none of the links were from the pigeon supply houses
that we list, they were smaller outlets... Who knows, it might go the way of 
some other products whose inventories dry up here in the states and that's
the end of the story. I'm very happy w/Vetafarm's product.

fp


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## rshaud (Nov 29, 2008)

I've already stocked up on the Trichocure (in the event it does disappear from the US market) as well as the Tricho Plus to dose the seed. It is encouraging to see that it does have "on the seed" instructions. 
Once again, thank you all for your assistance. This is really quite a wonderful community with the birds' welfare always topping the list.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wish you luck. Please let us know how it goes.


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