# Listless Bird



## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

Hello all, this really is a terrific site. I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on a bird I've recently found.

About eight days ago I picked up an injured pigeon here in Saskatoon. He was huddled beside a parking meter looking more like a ball of greasy feathers than a bird so I picked him up for a closer look, he never even struggled. A quick examination revealed two injuries under his wing, one about the size of a quarter where the flesh had been torn away (no bones showing), the other a surface abrasion. Once home I settled him in and determined after visiting this site that he is about six weeks old, a late season hatcher. He still has little yellow pin feathers all about his head.
I picked up food the next morning and he ate like there was no tomorrow so I'm guessing he must have been down for a few days before I found him.

Since being with me I have seen him make two short flights around the room. He tends to favour standing on his left leg even though his injuries are also on the left. Otherwise both legs seem normal and he is able to walk, hop and perch. I have been treating the wounds with Polysporin topical ointment. The problem is that he never leaves the top of the dresser where I first put him.He is not caged at all and is free to fly the apartment if he chooses. He has been eating well.I feed him a good diet of wild bird seed and he seems otherwise quite content to just sit all day in the same spot chirping occasionally. His wound hasn't fully healed yet but today he is more listless than before and I just noticed his droppings have become quite runny tonight. I'm concerned that he is headed downhill all of a sudden. Any ideas?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Welcome to the site and thank you for taking this young pigeon into your home Sounds like he might be even a tad younger than you think. This could explain his reluctance to fly very much. He may just be in the process of learning but isn't quite confident enough to leave the top of the dresser.

Do you have a heating pad? if you do, please cover with a towel, set on low and place underneath the bird. Any injuries or illnesses require keeping the bird very warm. Have you checked his throat by gently opening up the beak to make sure it's nice and pink in there? There should be no lumps or bumps inside his mouth or throat. 

Also, if you can, provide him with some apple cider vinegar in his water. 2 tablespoons to the gallon of water, or 1/4 teaspoon to the pint. 

Do the wounds look like they are healing nicely? If you could post a picture, this might help as well.


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*Grit*

Thanks Brad, I will pick up some apple cider vinegar in the morning. I did look into his mouth as well. He's a fighter but I was as gentle as possible. It looks to be OK, no lumps or bumps, just a light pinkish colour. You also mentioned that a sick bird needs to stay quite warm. I don't have a heating pad at the moment but my apartment is around 72F. Is that enough heat or should I go buy a pad?

My other question is about grit which I have just been reading about. Up to this point I haven't given him any grit at all. I have never kept nor cared for an injured bird so I have been on something of a crash course in pigeon care the last three nights and am learning as I go along. I had no idea these guys could be so endearing. Anyway, could the lack of grit be the reason the stool has suddenly turned so liquid ? Thanks again,

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Sick or ill pigeons/birds need direct heat, localized on and around their body. If you can pick up a heating pad tomorrow, that would be great Until then what you could try is this: Find a box of medium size and cut away one of the sides. You can place an old towel or two in there on the bottom. Then, fill some empty plastic bottles with hot water and then place these underneath the towels. You don't want the bottles directly touching his body but snuggled in and underneath. If you can get him to sleep in there for the night nestled amoung the bottles this would be good. If you have a hot water bottle itself, then this is even better and easier and will provide the same effect. Just make sure to check on it occasionally to make sure that the bottles aren't getting cool.

As for grit, yes, you could pick some up if you can get it. I don't think that is what is causing his runny droppings really and he may not even eat it but you can sure try and see

Keep us posted and if you have any further questions, don't be shy!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cammeron,

Is there somewhere locally where you could drop off a fecal sample in a baggie?
Hard to know what medications you might need otherwise. Also, where would you get medications? In the meantime the ACV in water is a good idea, might want to try a tablespoon per gallon to make sure the bird continues to drink.

You could also put a gelcap of garlic down the birds throat or a clove of fresh garlic in the drinking water overnight and served up in the meantime. I use 500mg's on the garlic soft capsules although others do go higher w/it.

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

As Brad mentioned, supplemental heat is primary whenever a bird seems sick. Something else that might be helpful is probiotics. A young bird under stress might not have a good level of gut bacteria, leaving the intestines open for colonization by bad bacteria. Most pharmacies should carry probiotic powder, or in a pinch you could use a tiny bit of yogurt as long as it is labeled "Active Culture". Just add a bit over the bird's food (a few drops of vegetable oil will help it stick).


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for helping this needy youngster.

If you could find a health store in your area, they will carry a human grade probiotic. At this point it would be wise to give him a few heavy doses. The Solaray brand works well, powder or cap, you will find it in the refrigerator section of the store.

You can also try the Sovereign brand colloidal silver in case of infection. One drop down the throat per day, no more.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Ideally, "Raw" Apple Cider Vinegar...which may be had of any Health Food Store...

If he likes the spot atop your dresser, you would do well to let him have that spot, and set up the Heating Pad there, with a small towell over the whole. That way he will enjoy the spot he likes and be as warm as he likes.

Pigeons of his age more or less, often elect some spot to stay in pretty much, and once yours is feeling better. and a little older, he will tend to explore the room more and seek higher roosts once his Wings, Muscles and strength allow.

But for now, if you are comfortable to do so, I'd say let him have the Dresser-top and just make it nicer for him with the Heating Pad...and a towell over the whole...

A light color or white Towell or tee-shirt material, lets you see the color of the poops pretty well also.

Young Pigeon Birds sometimes overdrink, but also, Pigeons will drink more than usual to flush their systems if they are a little ill, and this can make for some pretty watery or snakey-watery poops.

The ACV-Water will definitely help no matter what is going on with him...

But do, if you can, get a fecal analysis from some Avian Vet.

If you like, "Foys" (Pigeon Supply) will do a good analysis for $20.00 U.S. (call them first, talk with them, tell them you are sending, then send a tablespoon full wrapped into a corner of plastic film wrap, sandwhich wrap, so it stays together, in a second day envelope to them with the pay, include your phone number and info and so on, ) and they will call you to explain their findings...

It may be a good idea if you do have access to an Avian Vet, to have an examination, determination and opinion...for one thing, because whatever his injuries were caused by, he may by now be starting to have some infections systemically from bacteria introduced by the injury event...especially if injured by a Cat or Dog or Hawk...

And he might need to be on Pennicillin or some other Antibiotic...and soon.

If his appetite falls or he starts fluffing up and sleeping when he should be awake, then things may be understood to be getting serious/dangerous for him.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*Wound not yet healed*

Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas and insights into my birds health.

Little buddy (yes, I had to name him) has perked up a bit. He is standing more and taking an interest in his surroundings. He still lies down oddly though. Flopped over to one side with his wings in a peculiar position but I think this must be because the injuries or bruises still hurt. His feathers are in poor condition and while I would like to bathe him I can't as one of his wounds is still not quite healed and I am afraid to risk infection. Twice when I thought it was on the mend I discovered that he had picked off the scab and caused it to bleed again. I am going to try a small bandaid today and see if that works. 

A friend of mine has come over to look at the bird. She was a nurse once and after a quick look said that it is a puncture wound, no doubt about it. I can see that now that most of the swelling has gone down it has formed a hard red rimmed circle with a dimple in the center. Sort of like a volcano. It is a miracle he survived these 11 days with such a nasty injury.

The extra heat really seems to have helped though. I came up with a novel way to warm him that is working. I have one of those tall desk lamps with a flexible neck and metal shade. Anyway, I positioned it over "little buddy" but he objected to all the light. The solution was to slip an aluminum pop can over the bulb so that virtulally no light is emitted. It gives good warm radiant heat from above. The pop can was a perfect fit for the bulb!

I have picked up Active culture yogurt but could not convince him to take any so I am hoping that the Apple Cider Vinegar will do the trick instead. He readily goes for the water so this should'nt be a problem. The probiotics have me a little more nervous though. I just don't feel confident enough to get a pill into him without causing injury. He still seems so fragile. I will give a drop of colloidal silver as soon as I can find some. It looks to me like I may have no choice but to go to an oral antibiotic if he doesn;t improve further. 
I had hoped he would mend with the least amount of handling since I want to release him wild again but I am not sure he would survive a Saskatchewan winter with the amount of feathers he is missing on the one side. Perhaps next spring.

For now I will let the little sweetie have his roost on the dresser. He is fascinated with himself and the mirror and seems content to stay right there for now. thanks again all.

Cameron.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi again Cameron, 

Thank you for this well awaited update Sounds like this pigeon is going to be alright afterall due to your kindness and care!

I am wondering if your description of him lying down on one wing is his "normal" way or not. Pigeons, when they are comfortable and content will often lay down on one side, positioning their wing underneath them as if it were a cushion.

Please, don't be afraid to give or offer him/her a bath. The bird will greatly appreciate this as well it will help with any parasites it might have. It will also cleanse the wound(s) if you add just a wee bit of salt to the water. If you offer "Buddy" a bath, please use luke warm water and make sure he can dry off in a warm, draft free place is all.

I'm glad you're keeping him warm, this is vital and of upper most importance. Please continue with whatever method as long as he can be kept warm and snug withought over heating. Your innovative idea with the pop can and lamp is unique but if it works, that's all that matters

Don't worry about giving capsules, gel caps or pills to him, they are quite capable of swallowing them. What I do is submerse the pill/capsule or tablet in water first for lubrication. Next, just prop open the beak, shove it way to the back of the throat and the bird will do the rest It's really quite easy.

Any chance of a picture of the youngster?  Thanks again for all that you're doing!!!!!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cameron, 

Also to address your concernes of the wound and scab bleeding, a little corn starch or flour to the area should help. A band aid could work depending but the bleeding needs to be stopped quickly in a small animal like a pigeon


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


The laying on their side, laying on a Wing more or less, laying sideways almost, is a normal thing young Pigeons tend to do. They lay around like how 'Row Boats' can lay on shore, kind of half on their side like that.

Hmmmmm...a puncture then...

I think if it was me, I would clean it gently with Peroxide ( say one part ) in water ( of say ten parts ) and use a Que-tip to do it..then, flush it out well with a big syringe and some warm Water that has Salt dissolved in it, say to the tune of a tablespoon to a pint or so. Maybe do the fluching at the same time as his warm bath.

Inspect it once it is really 'clean' and apply some topical antibiotic to it such as the Neosporin or Nitrofurizone if you can get any...once dry.

Punctures can take a while to heal, but their danger, for one thing, is that they can sometimes form an abcess...so, be watchful of any peculiar welling or lump or prominance that is more than the slight localised inflamation of the wound edges themselves.

If you let him bathe, or bathe him, make sure to blot him as dry as possible with toilet paper or kleenex, and since he will likely still be rather wet after that even, make sure he has an enclosed draft free and quite warm surround to finish evaporatively drying in...or at least a draft free and warm place to lay...

Do go to a drug store and get a $5.00 electric Heating Pad...put it on the Dresser top and cover it and the dresser top in a medium sized Towell...and for his after bath dry, he will very much appreciate being able to sit on that Dresser Top and have the warmth comeing up from under him, rather than comeong down from above him...even though I admire your ingenuity toi have devised the foil-shade for the lamp...!

Anyway, maybe others will offer some opinions on treating a none too fres puncture wound...but the possibility of abcess is something to be watchful for.

Good luck!

And yes, do post some images of the little one..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*Heating Pad*

Thanks Phil, I am convinced now that a heating pad is the way to go, especially for a wet bird. I do want to bathe him. The small bandaid I used yesterday seems to have worked and the wound now has a fresh scab over it. I have examined the injury as you mentioned to check for any discharge or unusual inflamation that might indicate an abcess. So far so good but I will keep my eye on it just in case. My normal procedure is to clean the area around the wound with an antibacterial soap, then disinfect the injury before applying Polysporin Antibiotic cream. This has kept the area clean. I am more paranoid about transferring bacteria to him than picking up any myself.

Little buddy is standing again today and not wobbling like he used too. He is alert and stronger than before. I've noticed over the last few days that he is fighting back with more strength when I try to treat him and he took a short flight across the room to poop on my computer keyboard. (Could be a sign he won't be going into the Tech field when he grows up!). 

Oh, the poops are back to normal. Could be because of the ACV.

I would like to get a photo out but am not set up for that right now. I will ask a friend for help and see what can be done about posting one, possibly next week.Thanks for the tips.

Cameron


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Cameron, you are really doing a wonderful job caring for this injured bird! Regarding the probiotics, another way to give this excellent supplement is to stir a few drops of vegetable oil into the seed, then stir in powdered probiotic. The trick is to use only enough oil to get the probiotic powder to stick.


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*A reason for optimism.*

Thanks Terri for mentioning how to get the probiotics into feed. I misunderstood your first message and mixed a little oil with seed and yogurt. I know that sounds dumb, no wonder he would'nt touch it. Anyway, I have probiotics on my shopping list for Monday morning. Buddy is improving. He was doing quite a bit of stationary wing flapping today and he is up and about in a way I have not seen before. I get pecked when I try to pick him up or change his food dish and a scornfull look if I am near his roost on the dresser. I think the little guy just realized he was a pigeon after all and not necessarily just a patient anymore. 

I was really glad to hear that it is normal for pigeons to lay on their sides. One less thing to worry about. I am very optimistic about his chances now though. Never thought I could love a pigeon but this little patient is adorable. Both of us are gratefull for all the helpfull advice everyone has offered. God Bless.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cameron, 


Oh...such good news to hear...

You are doing a wonderful job there..!

Birds do not posess the digestive enzymes to process Dairy...so the Yoghurt may give them some bloating, gas, or diarhea of some kind.

Too, I do not know if the Yoghurt would posess anything useful which would not be better found in the pro-biotics and digestive enzymes themselves as powder in capsules which one may use whole, as some do, or to empty partially out for a day's worth of food...as I do.

The Pro-Biotics you might get, would be either those from a supplier for Bird 'pro-biotics' which possibly are the best choice, or, as I have, the 'pro-biotics' intended for people, usually people-babys.

Too, at a health food store some while ago, I got a little container of capsules of digestive enzymes, which I have added to some Birds formula or Seeds, useing the Olive Oil to lightly glisten the Seeds so that a powder will stick to them.


Recently I bought some thin matted Sea Weed at an Oriental Market. I intend to make a little 'thread' of it soon, maybe tonight, so look for it here soon...

But anyway, my present Doves and Pigeons all love it and have eaten nearly the whole package of it in not much more than a week.

I notice the mention of Vitamine "A" in the little section for nutritional info, that it contains some fair amount.

Birds need Vitamine A and it is not the easiest for them to get in their usual diets.

Anyway, yours might also enjoy some of this or similar dried thin Sea Weed.

I also plan to get a Kale soon, as my Birds years ago used to devout Kales when I brought one to present to them.

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cameron,

Thank you for taking such good care of the bird.

For a bird with serious intestinal health issues, I give a whole capsule of humane grade probiotics for a few days. It makes such a difference in their ability to assimilate and digest their food well as well as build up the good dut flora.

I myself have reservations in using yogurt, as most yogurts do not carry the quality gut bacteria needed for seriously deficient birds, plus the energy required of an already compromised sick bird to digest everything that comes with it. I have however, used kefir yogurt, that I make at home. Kefir has the correct quality bacteria and can be consumed by babies at 6 months of age.


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*Probiotics*

Ok, thanks guys ( and gals), I think i've got it.
Yogurt is out. I have the probiotics though which I picked up today. I went into a health food store and asked for it but got a blank stare when I explained it was for a pigeon. What they sold me is something called Acidophilus which contains 1.5 billion cells of Lactobacillus Acidophilus per capsule. The container though does not have the words Probiotics on it even though the clerk insisted that is what it was. I won't administer any until I hear back from a more informed source. Is this the same thing? I am the kind of person who won't even take an aspirin unless I am on my own death bed so I am not really "hip" to all this terminology. Let's face it, two weeks ago, before I came to this web site I thought Pigeons were just like Seagulls. I thought they ate meat, garbage and castoff food scraps etc that they found on the street. I really had no idea that their primary diet was nuts and seeds. How they survive in a cold climate like mine with snow on the ground and temperatures into the minus 40's celcius (0 degrees F) without the help of birdfeeders is a miracle.

I have decided to keep this pigeon until spring because of his problems. I will release him wild then. I would like to have a second adult pigeon that he can socialize with until then and hopefully retain some of his primitive pigeon characteristics. I don't really want him imprinting on me too much. Are there any pigeon people in Saskatoon who have a feral I might match up with Buddy until April? Thanks everyone.

Cameron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cameron,

Thank you for everything you are doing for this pigeon.

The acidopholis will do just fine . I go to the health food store and just pick up people products, they work fine, I don't mention that they are for my birds, cause they will look at you like your nuts.

Here is a nutrition thread that talks about the ingredients in a goo probiotic.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760


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## Cameron (Nov 23, 2005)

*Just an update*

Hi all.

Little buddy has completely recovered as far as I can tell. His wound has healed nicely and he is flying around my apartment like he owns the place. He is refusing the heating pad now so I think this means he is feeling better but I will keep it on until I'm sure. Also, he's picked a new roost up on top of one of those plastic indoor plants which is handy because most of the droppings end up in the planter below. I really love this bird.Thanks again,

Cam


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cam,


Perfect!

How nice...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Cameron said:


> ...he is flying around my apartment like he owns the place...
> Cam


You have done such a great job that he feels right at home. What a wonderful update!


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