# another probe from PETA...



## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

New York
Pigeon racing a multimillion, illegal enterprise 
PETA probe says thousands of birds killed in activity

BY BARRY PADDOCK / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

SUNDAY, APRIL 29, 2012, 11:08 PM

NICHOLAS FEVELO/FOR NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

The Bronx Homing Pigeon Club on White Plains Road in the Bronx.
Pigeon racing, long considered a harmless hobby, fosters $15 million a year in illegal gambling nationwide and kills thousands of birds, an animal rights group charged after a 15-month investigation.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals will on Monday present to 17 law enforcement agencies — including the FBI and NYPD — hundreds of pages of evidence of what its lawyers say are illegalities in pigeon racing.

The group, which has detailed video and audio recordings from its undercover probe, asserts that only 40% of pigeons that are raced survive the ordeal.

According to the investigation, the Bronx Homing Pigeon Club, which runs the Northeast’s biggest race, secretly doles out hundreds of thousands of dollars for winning bets on races.

In New York, a horse is the only animal that can legally be raced for gambling purposes.

“The clubs are nothing but unlawful racketeering enterprises,” said Jeff Kerr, a top lawyer for PETA, a group that has sometimes been criticized for having a hard-line approach.

In the races, the trained homing pigeons are driven hundreds of miles away from their coops and then released. The bird that flies home the fastest wins. For its World Trade Center Memorial Race, the Bronx club charges a $100 entry fee per bird, and advertises that a first-place winner will be awarded 30,000 “points.”

“They euphemistically refer to the prize dollars as points,” Kerr charged. “That’s just an indication they know it’s illegal.”

PETA says racers often plunk down large bets on other competitors’ birds. However, the Bronx club’s officials denied gambling takes place, and said points are points, and earn members trinkets and bragging rights, nothing more.

“There is no gambling,” said club president Lou Bernardone.

“We give trophies. You get nice big plaques with your name on it and everything.”

PETA probed pigeon racing in multiple states and attended races in Oklahoma and Phoenix that were organized by the American Racing Pigeon Union, a national umbrella group that declined comment for this story.

“There was just constant gambling going on,” an investigator said, asking — like all PETA’s probers did — to remain anonymous because undercover work continues. “It’s pretty flagrant.”

“We don’t say we’re doing anything,” a man PETA identified as an American Racing Pigeon Union director said on hidden camera. “But there’s a guy behind that black door in there — slip your money in.”

The Bronx club’s Trade Center race draws hundreds of participants from surrounding states to a rented hall in the borough each fall.

“It was very challenging to get access to this world,” an investigator told The News. “It’s a real sort of closed society, very members-only.”

Racers in the Bronx register their birds on the first floor of the rented hall, then go upstairs to enjoy a buffet — and place illegal bets, investigators charge.

“One entire wall is covered with blackboards, where all the betting is listed to encourage others to bet,” an investigator said. “It’s all focused on the wagering.”

On the following morning, the birds are driven to West Virginia in crates stacked in the back of a truck. They are then released to their fates.

Raised in captivity, the birds aren’t prepared for the wild, PETA’s investigators say. Many fall prey to predators, starve or perish from bad weather or from drinking salt water.

“They’re gambling on these animals’ lives,” an investigator said.

An official with the Bronx club, identified by PETA as a former president still active with the group, was caught on a recording nonchalantly discussing the grim survival rate.

“One race there was maybe about 41 birds out of 769” that made it home.

He then recalled a Queens race in bad weather during which only four out of 213 birds survived.

“They called the race off. They’re going to put the money into next year,” that official said

Pigeons mate for life and share responsibility for tending eggs. Racers pick pigeons for the contest that are deeply engaged in caring for their mates, chicks and eggs, knowing the birds will be desperate to return home, PETA’s probers say.

“I don’t even want to think what some people do with them,” one secretly recorded race official tells an investigator.

“They just use the baby to get the bird to come home from the race, and they discard the baby.”

Racers routinely kill underperforming birds in a practice called culling, the probe found.

Some racers are caught on tape discussing the best killing methods, ranging from drowning to gassing to decapitation.

Officials with the Bronx club adamantly denied mistreating birds, and said fewer birds die while racing than PETA claims.

“When these birds don’t come home to us, we’re sick,” said Martin

McGuinniss, a vice president of the Bronx club. “We love these pigeons like most people love their children.”

While PETA contends that thousands of birds are killed in pigeon racing, the offspring of a winning pigeon can be sold for several thousand dollars.

“They’re not spending that kind of money on birds because they like them,” Kerr said of the buyers. “It’s about the return on investment.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...al-enterprise-article-1.1069610#ixzz2P4yvizlP


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

This article is a year old, any idea what happened?


And lying and saying that you get a trophy and 30,000 points to win the World Trade Center race is very dumb, hundreds of guys are not spending thousands of dollars for bragging rights.


Honestly you don't profit from pigeon racing unless you win a huge OLR. Everything else we put that money back into it. If I won 30,000 I'd probably update my coops and buy some birds I've really wanted, new clock, etc, etc. 

The main thing that pisses me off is the inaccuracy. The whole secret society thing isn't true, most pigeon guys will talk to you for hours and hours! These PETA allegations will just turn our sport into what they're calling it - a secret society. All new clubs will be suspicious when members join clubs now or visit frequently, which might discourage them if they are truly interested and no one is helping them. And seriously, who kills babies for the natural system, I never even heard of that.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Peta is out to destroy the hobby And people need to see this as it is what PETA wants. Tell me who can control what happens on a race. Is the race cruel Or was nature that day cruel.


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## kclarksville (Apr 22, 2012)

I dont race pigeons and I do not have any insight to pigeon racing at all. But what I can say is that, I know a guy who races pigeons and he takes care of them like his children. I hope that that the animal cruelty allegations are not true and this matter will be resolved with out hurting pigeon keeping hooby. On the flip side, I wonder why PETA doesn't go after big cities and municipalities that poison and slowly kill pigeons by the thousands every year. It just makes me wonder about what they are really after ?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I can tell you what they are really after, in their own sick perverted little minds they want to save the animals. If you read there page they think all critters should be out in the wild,so why do they destroy so many?

Their president Ingrid isn't a rich person, yet she travels the country talking trash about every one that has a dog, cat, gold fish, or what ever. So what it really boils down to is donations, money is their own real agenda. 
Dave


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

From PETA:



> We at PETA very much love the animal companions who share our homes, but we believe that it would have been in the animals' best interests if the institution of "pet keeping"—i.e., breeding animals to be kept and regarded as "pets"—never existed. The international pastime of domesticating animals has created an overpopulation crisis; as a result, millions of unwanted animals are destroyed every year as "surplus."
> 
> This selfish desire to possess animals and receive love from them causes immeasurable suffering, which results from manipulating their breeding, selling or giving them away casually, and depriving them of the opportunity to engage in their natural behavior. They are restricted to human homes, where they must obey commands and can only eat, drink, and even urinate when humans allow them to.


I think that should be enough to convince any pet owner who supports them, not to!


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

PETA at most times disgraces the purpose of which their whole philosophy is based.
People have been domesticating animals since the beginning of time, from dogs to cats to birds, it's nothing new. PETA acts like it is some big invention that recently occurred these last few decades. In fact,wwithout pets most of our ancestors probably couldnt survive. I thinl PETA members need a good pet in their lives...
Its funny how horse racing bets are ok because its legal, but if it wasnt legal its called unlawful racketeering. Maybe pigeon racers should ban together to get gambling on pigeons legalized, that way we wont encounter such allegations.
There is nothing ethical about the way they handle business.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

PETA needs to investigate how their mismanagement of birds of prey has lead to the slaughter of 400 million song birds a year due to the overpopulation of birds of prey. Not to mention this policy has led to more pigeon deaths than at the hands of fanciers. 

Funny how their solutions of management lead to more animal deaths. Also don't understand why they spend a bunch of money on advertisements about animal abuse, but support euthanizing animals at the local animal shelter who kill more animals than cars. 

I am all for protecting the rights of animals, but pigeon racing and the fancier's love of the birds has been around much longer than their organization. 

Also do not know why they gambling part is any of their business. That is a federal and state issue. Funny how the fanciers they are going after, have better lofts than they probably have houses. They give their birds freedom to fly etc. Probably take better care of their birds than the PETA folks do their dogs.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

For pigeon flyers and officials, to deny that "points" is in fact, money. Is silly. When you lie, you insult the intelligence of people. To even use the term "points" is silly.

Churches have bingo nights. They also have casino nights. Many, if not most, states allow gambling. Office workers all over the country, participate in football bets on the superbowl. Many people nationwide, participate in NCAA "March Madness" pools and bracket betting. The President himself has publically stated that he participates in these bets on the superbowl and the NCAA tournament.

Politicians do it right on public TV. Betting on the outcome of a sporting event involving their state school teams, versus another states. They pay off in cheese, steak dinners, beer, or whatever their state is known for.

None of these "bets" are lied and called "points". How silly.

Is all of this not gambling? Is a friendly wager between parties, not accepted worldwide? I openly invite for "ice cream bets" on this very site, concerning if my racing pigeon can beat someone elses racing pigeon, in a particular race.

It is harmless sport wagering. Why should our parent organizations, such as the AU, IF, or combines and clubs. Not state up front and directly. That we bet on our pigeons? Be truthful and honest. When one of us wins some money on a pigeon race, just declare the winnings as income, and pay upir taxes accordingly. Just like if we won the Mega-Millions lottery.

Why all of these lies and contortions of the truth? Is it that much different, than participating in the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes, with its possibility of winning a "thousand dollars, every week, for life", they promote on TV?

No. You buy a Big Mac meal at McDonalds and you get your little "game piece" for their Monopoly Game. Maybe you "win" a small fries with their scratch-off. Or you could win a million dollar prize.

This stuff is hogwash. Tell the freakin truth and live with the consequences. Don't insult peoples intelligence. That is what brought down President Nixon. The lies and the cover-ups. Not the original deeds or actions.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

conditionfreak said:


> For pigeon flyers and officials, to deny that "points" is in fact, money. Is silly. When you lie, you insult the intelligence of people. To even use the term "points" is silly.
> 
> Churches have bingo nights. They also have casino nights. Many, if not most, states allow gambling. Office workers all over the country, participate in football bets on the superbowl. Many people nationwide, participate in NCAA "March Madness" pools and bracket betting. The President himself has publically stated that he participates in these bets on the superbowl and the NCAA tournament.
> 
> ...


Betting is one thing but wanting and trying to get pigeon racing and keeping of pigeons is another. PETA cares l;ess about any bets They want to stop the racing and keeeping of pigeons. YOU KNOW that. If it was just betting peta would not get involved would they


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## kclarksville (Apr 22, 2012)

Condition freak and ree lee, I genuinely believe that you are both right. For ree lee, yes PETA is after the whole pigeon keeping hobby and they would love to see you and I not keeping pigeons regardless of the fact that some of the pigeon breeds would have no chance to live in wilderness and fall prey in a day or starve to death. But I am sure PETA would have an answer for that something like, evolution process would take care of that problem and those fancy pigeons which have been cared for by the people like you and for ages I would be free and happy in the wild. And again, in their make believe reality world all those animals would be cared by Pocahontas in the forrest of ferries and other magical creatures where all animals live happily.
Condition freak you are also right if there are bets being placed the racing hobbyist should admit to such actions and start lobbying to make it legal. As we all see over and over again as long as the state and the big brother get their piece gambling can be made legal. This way the races can be regulated and they will have official government oversight which will stop organizations such as PETA. What I would like PETA to pursue is the animal cruelty allegations such as some people drowning or killing their birds just because they don't win or they need them any more.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

All OLR `s,give out 1040 forms to all the owners of pigeons winning over $600.00 I think...I stand to be corrected on the amount of winnings...But these big OLR`s do make the 1040 a MUST have to the winners and the IRS...They are trying to be on the up & up for their events....The pooling is where the problem exsists...Is it gambling,I`m not sure....You bet a dollar,you get back $10,if your bird places high enough in the results...That`s not a big bet,but it still might be considered gambling....Pooling starts at 25cents....Wow...So if I pool my pigeon 25 cents,50 cents,and 1$,I can win $17.50...I don`t think uncle Sam will be after me for these kinds of pooling...This kind of stuff goes on in the very social,everyday kind of men/women who work hard for their money...They are not in the hobby for money....It`s more about bragging rights,and good times...This is 75 to 85% of the hobby`s core members...The other 10/15%, could/might be in it for the financial rewards,if any...I think breeding winners,and selling yb`s from these birds is more worthy of making someone gain monatary rewards....And that is very much so NOT illegal by any means....Alamo


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have won more than $600.00, but in a futurity race. Not a OLR. I was not issued anything other than a check.

It was up to me to include it in my income, for tax purposes. PETA is not concerned about the money aspect of pigeon racing. But they will use that weapon, to get at the sport.

In other words. They are not above using whatever weapon they can. Be it exageration, lies or betting. "The ends justify the means".

I am all for, just ignoring PETA.

Did I ever post on here, that when I contacted PETA about game bird fighting in my area, the two PETA members who came to my home to talk to me about it. Were men dressed as women?

They were cross dressers. It really put me off, and I did not cooperate with them. I ain't saying they are all like that. But these two were.

My wife kids me to this day, about my drag queen friends. She loves telling people I am friends with "them".

I ain't.

I might have to toss her from 600 miles. Just to see if she makes it home. I will pick a stormy evening to do the toss. If anyone finds a woman with a band that reads "Margie T". Just feed her for a couple of days, and let her go. Preferably on a rainy day.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There is an expectation with people that race pigeons is that there will be losses...likely heavy losses. Here is an *example *that as just posted on this forum a few days ago. So racing folks go into the *sport*expecting loss. This is only an example of what is posted here over and over. 

24th March 2013, 07:51 AM
NavyDT NavyDT is offline
Young Bird

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 34
no color preference i just dont want all my young birds to be hatches from may and only be a few months old before races start. *they have a really bad problem with loosing young birds here. most guys start the season with 60+ and only end the season with around 15-20. my loft is pretty small, so i will only be able to have about 25-30 birds. i would like to have something left at the end of the season thats all. *Thanks again eric for following my post and contact me if you ever get any birds you want to send my way

Very Respectfully,
Bryan Foster


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Charis said:


> There is an expectation with people that race pigeons is that there will be losses...likely heavy losses. Here is an *example *that as just posted on this forum a few days ago. So racing folks go into the *sport*expecting loss. This is only an example of what is posted here over and over.
> 
> 24th March 2013, 07:51 AM
> NavyDT NavyDT is offline
> ...


TRUE in some areas Hawks are VERY BAD and birds are lost to them more than other areas. Years back before the Hawks were protected and brought back Imported to towns and cities to Kill pigeons. There was much less birds lost to them. And then power lines. Cell towers that have what a dozen cables that kill thousands of birds each year. Not just pigeons any bird. Hwaks scatter birds on the race causing more to get lost flying off the line in a panic chase from the hawks. HAZRADS of what nature can do. Hawks if you look at them hunt for FOOD but there natureal food supply is not there as it was But the hawks are back more in the past 20 to 25 years more so then they were 50 to 100 years ago When there food supply was at a higher number. cell towers are being put up more and more At least having colored cables would help reduce bird kills. But no laws on that. There are some answers to why more birds never get home. And another is selection before racing. .


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Did I ever post on here, that when I contacted PETA about game bird fighting in my area, the two PETA members who came to my home to talk to me about it. Were men dressed as women?
> 
> They were cross dressers. It really put me off, and I did not cooperate with them. I ain't saying they are all like that. But these two were.
> 
> My wife kids me to this day, about my drag queen friends. She loves telling people I am friends with "them".


Are you serious? Because that made me laugh. I know you were put off, but from my stand point... Hilarious.


The gambling aspect is simply a means to an end for PETA. I truly do not believe that they are looking for the animals best interest, but rather to shut down a sport. And gambling is the legality that they are using to do so. Akin to arresting Capone for tax evasion.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*racing*

I am not for or against pigeon racing, but people who do race their pigeons don't really 'love' them as pets, but they do 'care' for them very well - because they want winners and they want to produce expensive offspring to sell.

I only have a few pigeons as pets, and I really am attached to them, and so I would never consider racing them - putting their lives at risk just to get money or a trophy.

Also in the UK we had a lot of problems with pigeon racers killing off are native birds of prey, leading to many being on the verge of extinction in the UK. It still goes on today. That is not the action of an animal lover, its the action of someone wanting to win races no matter what the price. Its not because they are heartbroken their beloved pigeon died, its because its cost them money.

And of course pigeon racing people kill off birds that are not up to standard. Pigeons are prolific breeders. If they are killed humanly I have no problem with that. Also having betting on the races - get it legalised and then thats not a problem either. 

As for the pigeons races themselves. It seems cruel to release the birds if the weather is know to be so bad. Cancel the race and set up a new race date.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jak2002003 said:


> I am not for or against pigeon racing, but people who do race their pigeons don't really 'love' them as pets, but they do 'care' for them very well - because they want winners and they want to produce expensive offspring to sell.
> 
> I only have a few pigeons as pets, and I really am attached to them, and so I would never consider racing them - putting their lives at risk just to get money or a trophy.
> 
> ...


You are very misimformed About the hobby. You should learn more before you judge. There are many thousands of people racing pigeons. And every one is not the same


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

I agree with re lee. To generalize that "all" pigeon racers are in it for the money or a trophy is grossly unfair. That is akin to saying all people that show dogs are in it just for the money or a trophy. I grow tired of uninformed individuals coming onto this forum to post their views. Get informed! Yes there are some pigeon racers that are in it just for the money or glory but the vast majority are ones that care for their birds and would never knowingly put them in harm's way. If what you say is going on in the UK, I recommend you move back there and do your best to stop it.


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

re lee said:


> You are very misimformed About the hobby. You should learn more before you judge. There are many thousands of people racing pigeons. And every one is not the same


Re lee, nicely said, I could not agree more.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

V-John said:


> Are you serious? Because that made me laugh. I know you were put off, but from my stand point... Hilarious.
> 
> 
> The gambling aspect is simply a means to an end for PETA. I truly do not believe that they are looking for the animals best interest, but rather to shut down a sport. And gambling is the legality that they are using to do so. Akin to arresting Capone for tax evasion.


I would of hit the floor!... hahahahaha!


and yes birds are lost every year, just as released ferals are.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*reply*



akbird said:


> I agree with re lee. To generalize that "all" pigeon racers are in it for the money or a trophy is grossly unfair. That is akin to saying all people that show dogs are in it just for the money or a trophy. I grow tired of uninformed individuals coming onto this forum to post their views. Get informed! Yes there are some pigeon racers that are in it just for the money or glory but the vast majority are ones that care for their birds and would never knowingly put them in harm's way. If what you say is going on in the UK, I recommend you move back there and do your best to stop it.


Are you a pigeon racer? If so, please tell me why you do it? You are not interested in winning? You think its just nice for the birds to get exorcise? 

What do you do with your surplus pigeon offspring, or very slow or poor racers? 

You can not compare dog breeding or dog shows to pigeon racing.
There are plenty of good pigeon shows - where people breed fancy and show birds. Thats a world away from the pigeon racing sport. Its like saying horse racing is the same as breeding hamsters. 

Just because I have a different view from you does not mean I am uninformed.
We are all individuals and all entitled to our own views - just are you are to yours. Also I am not new to this forum or website. 

Recommending that I go back to the uk, giving up my family, work and friends - are you serious? 

Pigeon racing is just that - racing pigeons. I think its fine. My grandad used to race pigeons and he cared for the birds very well. But I do not live in fairy tale world where I can pretend that this practice has no dangers to the birds. Its just a risk we have to take if we want to do this sport.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2013)

jak2002003 said:


> Are you a pigeon racer? If so, please tell me why you do it? You are not interested in winning? You think its just nice for the birds to get exorcise?
> 
> What do you do with your surplus pigeon offspring, or very slow or poor racers?
> 
> ...


As others have said you are generalizing about everything. Are there people out there who abuse their birds? yes, sure there are as there are people who abuse other species of animals as well. Are there people out there who abuse and beat their children and spouses? Sure there are and there always will be. But is it right to say that everybody beats their children and spouses? HELL NO! And that goes with pigeons as well... there are a few bad apples out there no doubt, but then certain people (mainly PETA) try to paint this picture that EVERYBODY is abusing their pigeons. It is just not true in the least. The birds love to be out flying... if they didn't they would never leave the loft when you open the doors to let them out. Are there dangers out there? sure there are dangers everywhere in nature. You could step "outside" yourself and slip and fall and crack your head open... that possibility exists for everybody among thousands of other dangers that you don't even think about. Does that mean none of us can go outside, and we all live in a protective bubble the rest of our lives? no it doesn't... life doesnt work that way. Reasonable measures are taken with our lives to be safe, and reasonable measures are taken with the birds as well.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

You can not compare dog breeding or dog shows to pigeon racing.
There are plenty of good pigeon shows - where people breed fancy and show birds. Thats a world away from the pigeon racing sport. Its like saying horse racing is the same as breeding hamsters. 


And just why can't you compare the two, PETA kills over 90% of all the dogs and cats they take in, and I wonder how many millions are put down by the local Humane Society every year? Every breeder that I know seperates their birds after breeding season. How many idiots just let the dogs and cats have litter after litter and just toss them out. Just my 2 cents
Dave


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> Well I can tell you what they are really after, in their own sick perverted little minds they want to save the animals. If you read there page they think all critters should be out in the wild,so why do they destroy so many?
> 
> Their president Ingrid isn't a rich person, yet she travels the country talking trash about every one that has a dog, cat, gold fish, or what ever. So what it really boils down to is donations, money is their own real agenda.
> Dave


If they want all creatures out in the wold go after the zoos and private collectors who keep tigers, lions and so on ,,,, why do t they just watch the show FATAL ATTRACTIONS they might learn something


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Speaking of lions I read where there are only 20,000 lions left And they might be extinct in TEN to TWENTY years if some thing is not done. And years back they numbered 420.000 They need help. WHERE is PETA S stand there


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

re lee said:


> Speaking of lions I read where there are only 20,000 lions left And they might be extinct in TEN to TWENTY years if some thing is not done. And years back they numbered 420.000 They need help. WHERE is PETA S stand there


PETA could care less if they go extinct, as long as we dont have them as pets.
Dave


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## Melsloft (Apr 27, 2007)

re lee said:


> Speaking of lions I read where there are only 20,000 lions left And they might be extinct in TEN to TWENTY years if some thing is not done. And years back they numbered 420.000 They need help. WHERE is PETA S stand there


Why don't we fanciers file complaints against PETA with the humane society,,,, they at least stand for something legit unlike PETA


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm not sure if we could do any thing, but there home office is in Norfolk Va. Maybe some one there could file a complaint, that's where they kill all the pets they bring in.
Dave


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*racing*

Thanks for all the replies. I do understand that most people treat their racing birds very well. I do not debate this.

But, no one has answered my question.....

What do you do with your birds that are poor racers, slow flyers, poor breeders, or ones that are getting over a few years old?

What do you do with all the young birds from each season - like the ones that are not top grade?

What do you do with a bird that comes home injured and will recover, but will not be able to race again?

Can any actual pigeon fancier tell me the answer?

I don't need any information about LIONS, DOG SHOWS, CHILD ABUSE or PETA or anything else thank you.

As people think I am uninformed, please inform me.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

jak2002003 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I do understand that most people treat their racing birds very well. I do not debate this.
> 
> But, no one has answered my question.....
> 
> ...


And you jak2002003 are just another example of PETA or at least a PETA sympathizer wrapped in another package. 

If you had actually read any posts written by me or many others on this site would or should know that I have birds in my loft that have been injured and are now used for breeders. (just as many others do)You would also know that the fastest pigeons don't always (actually rarely do) make the best breeders. 

So drop your crap questions and go peddle your wares somewhere else..... 

Again I quote a truism of law enforcement: "If if walks, talks and acts like a duck, well then common sense says it is a duck"!

Just as if it talks like a PETA member, all the comments sound like someone who hasnt read any articles other than his or her own talking points, which typically are all negative towards anyone who races. and lastly someone who cannot understand examples other than his or her own talking points.... 

Well then a PETA member or at least a wanna be sympathizer you are! 

I for one want nothing to do with you or your questions that anyone who had taken the time to read even a small fraction of articles on this site would know the answers too.

You sure your not really tjc1 form another tread about PETA and associates as you make about as much sense!


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree 100% with you Lawman!!!!


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*reply*



Lovelace said:


> I agree 100% with you Lawman!!!!


I am not PETA supporter - I think they have warped views.

I see no one has still answered my question - no one wants to inform me. 

So I have to presume pigeon racers commonly cull many unwanted birds each year, as no one had denied otherwise.

Again I have to say I don't mind this. [DELETED BY MODS] I only wanted honest information to help my understanding and make up my mind about the sport.

I just don't know why I can't get a straight answer. It almost seems pigeon racers on this thread seem to want to hid something.

I have been researching on the internet about the sport, but information is sadly lacking about culling. However, it seem common place to 'cull' racing pigeons as part of breeding good stock and good stock management. 

For people who don't want to be bothered with my questions then simply don't answer me - I am not forcing you to reply. 

I want to know about pigeon racing, but pigeon racers seem unwilling to share any info with me about their sport. Its a shame as it is very interesting to me and something I might consider in the future. If you want you sport to continue into the future I think you need to be more open and encourage others to take it up.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

From what I understand, the topic of "culling" is a no-no on this site.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The main Questions you are asking is what do people do with there unwanted birds. jak2002003. Many are sold if they can be used by others. Many are given away. Birds get lost on a race. And birds face dangers in a race JUST as they would if they were loft flying. There are several posts on this thread That relates to your questions. And MANY posts in this race section that helps you learn more about racing. Read a few. NOW lets not go into raising pigeons for food. As people here do not relate to that and find it rather offensive. Even though that does happen We do not find it a subject worth talking about. People keep pigeons as PETS , They keep them to SHOW. they keep them to RACE, they keep them for other reasons. BUT Most to many do care and take good care of them. Yes they have to be managed And NO every bird can not be kept. But it does not mean every unwanted or unneeded bird is killed. And one would be surprised on how many LOST birds were not lost BUT trapped into others lofts and were kept by them.


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## ejb3810 (May 21, 2012)

The irony about the inquiry regarding culling is that if a pigeon keeper had birds that they wanted to find another place for they could simply turn them over to PETA, and the folks at PETA would be all too happy to dispose of them as they do with over 90% of the cats and dogs that they come into possession of each year.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ejb3810 said:


> The irony about the inquiry regarding culling is that if a pigeon keeper had birds that they wanted to find another place for they could simply turn them over to PETA, and the folks at PETA would be all too happy to dispose of them as they do with over 90% of the cats and dogs that they come into possession of each year.


wow, never even thought about that.!


as re lee has said what happens to unwanted birds some sell them, some do kill them , some gift them to a new young keeper..some give them to
4-H programs, at least they do not let them loose or dump them someplace like peta did to minks on a mink farm in PA and here what happened is quoted.


SALEM, Ohio — More than 400 mink died after being released from their pens at a western Pennsylvania farm.

"Nearly all of the 2,800 mink at Oakwood Mink Farm in Boyers, Pa., were released in the middle of the night By Peta, June 5, with 103 nursing females and 340 kits dying as a result. Some were killed on the road, some were trampled by whoever let them loose and some died simply from stress."


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

PETA people are hypocrites everyone of them, look at this video, it's has offense language but it reveals the hypocrisy of peta, got a kick out of it, that's why i'd spit on these people before i'd help one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inFtOMx8nDU


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

abluechipstock said:


> PETA people are hypocrites everyone of them, look at this video, it's has offense language but it reveals the hypocrisy of peta, got a kick out of it, that's why i'd spit on these people before i'd help one
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inFtOMx8nDU


The link Needs the WARNING of graphic language. BUT IS worth watching as it exposes The idea and concept of what PETA wants and the lengths it will go. The video is 29 minutes long. I did watch most of it And Can only say If some of the people who are thinking PETA is great would watch it They might think different.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

jak2002003 said:


> I am not PETA supporter - I think they have warped views.
> 
> I see no one has still answered my question - no one wants to inform me.
> 
> ...


You have no interest in racing pigeons only in advancing PETA's agenda....... PETA LOVER is how I shall refer to you and others like you from now on, who simply don't get it.

If you had read anything on this forum including its rules and regulations.... you would know that the intentional culling of birds and how it is or is not done is a banned topic. BUT APPARENTLY YOU CANNOT READ ...... you can only post PROPAGANDA.

It is an issue that all bird lovers, any animal lover must contend with at some point. As your animals get older and unable to care for themselves a decision must be made as to allow them to live in pain or? That is an individual decision everyone who owns animals (not just pigeon fliers) must chose how to deal with. 

My personal belief is that anyone including members of PETA LOVERS INC. must chose for themselves how to deal with and is not a topic for this forum.

The fact that you refuse to drop the topic is in and of itself (at least in my opinion) cause for alarm by anyone with even the slightest bit of intelligence to understand that a PETA LOVER will never change its stripes only its tactic's.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

jak2002003 - you need to stop asking the questions concerning the lethal culling and/or eating of birds. You have been told that this is against forum rules. Abide by these rules, or face banishment. I am greatly surprised at how nicely other members have treated you in their responses to your nagging questions. 

You have been given the answers to most of these questions, but you seem unwilling to accept, and/or unable to understand them. This has been a lively debate and I would hate to have to close the thread so please be careful how or what you post.

To the other PT members - thank you for your constraint regarding your posts.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*Thank you*



re lee said:


> The main Questions you are asking is what do people do with there unwanted birds. jak2002003. Many are sold if they can be used by others. Many are given away. Birds get lost on a race. And birds face dangers in a race JUST as they would if they were loft flying. There are several posts on this thread That relates to your questions. And MANY posts in this race section that helps you learn more about racing. Read a few. NOW lets not go into raising pigeons for food. As people here do not relate to that and find it rather offensive. Even though that does happen We do not find it a subject worth talking about. People keep pigeons as PETS , They keep them to SHOW. they keep them to RACE, they keep them for other reasons. BUT Most to many do care and take good care of them. Yes they have to be managed And NO every bird can not be kept. But it does not mean every unwanted or unneeded bird is killed. And one would be surprised on how many LOST birds were not lost BUT trapped into others lofts and were kept by them.


Thank you for your great answer!

The information was very informative and you have helped me understand more about the subject. 

This was all I wanted to know from the beginning.

I remember when I kept white racing homers in the UK. Sometimes a stray racing pigeon would join up with them when they were out free flying and follow them back to the loft. They always stayed until they got a rest and but on some weight, and then they would continue on their journey - even though I often would prefer they stayed if they were nice colours.


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

*inform*



jak2002003 said:


> I am not PETA supporter - I think they have warped views.
> 
> I see no one has still answered my question - no one wants to inform me.
> 
> ...


I am sure there are hundred of thousands of pigoen fanceris in Thialand, why don't you seek out your answers in your homeland. You may find that it is handled compeletly different then anywere else and you will get your answers directly from the sourse. This was how it was done before computers and the internet.


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## jak2002003 (Jan 10, 2012)

*thanks*



BetaPigeon said:


> I am sure there are hundred of thousands of pigoen fanceris in Thialand, why don't you seek out your answers in your homeland. You may find that it is handled compeletly different then anywere else and you will get your answers directly from the sourse. This was how it was done before computers and the internet.


In the good old days!

I have tried to find other pigeon fanciers here, I have a few friends who breed birds for farming, and also fancy show pigeons. I was able to get some old duch capuchine and king pigeons, as well as a few Indian fantails, but its been a lot harder to track down and pigeon racers. I do a lot of traveling and have not come across anyone yet, but I do know it exists here - perhaps more in the south. 

Just one more question - how long can the pigeons keep racing for? Are they still good racers after a few years, or are younger birds better? 

Thanks.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

jak2002003 said:


> In the good old days!
> 
> I have tried to find other pigeon fanciers here, I have a few friends who breed birds for farming, and also fancy show pigeons. I was able to get some old duch capuchine and king pigeons, as well as a few Indian fantails, but its been a lot harder to track down and pigeon racers. I do a lot of traveling and have not come across anyone yet, but I do know it exists here - perhaps more in the south.
> 
> ...


BEWARE***** PETA LOVER ***** BEWARE

THEY WILL CHANGE TACTIC'S BUT WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR STRIPES!!!!

BEWARE***** PETA LOVER ***** BEWARE


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The poster has said



> I am not PETA supporter - I think they have warped views


This is beginning to get like a somewhat paranoid 'Reds under the bed' thing now.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I think we a talked over every aspect on this subject. I will close this thread. And in the future if it needs to be brought up agin A new thread can be made.


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