# Limit or no limit?



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

How do you feel when it comes to limits or no limits on shipping birds? Is it fair?

For example, the combine I fly with, there is no limit for shipping. You can send ten birds or one hundred birds and the fee is still the same. 

In the "other" combine, there is a limit on the number of birds you can ship. 

There are two factors that play into this discussion: 1) With unlimited shipping, the cost is one flat rate but you can ship as many birds as possible. Also, you have to deal with the mob fliers; guys who send 100 birds versus guys who send 20 birds. 2) With limited shipping, the rate is divided per bird, thus the fee changes weekly and the whole combine flies significantly less birds overall. And you don't have to deal with the mob fliers. 

So what type of combine do you fly in? And any preference as to why?


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## Roller mike (Aug 5, 2009)

We have both limited and unlimited one for each race, but it is 1$ per bird after 12 for OB and after 15 for YB. That way its fair for all, Problem is our combine has no limits on the long races, so that hinders us a little.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I think there should be a set limit with no extras for however much. Trainers could be acceptable if they were separated 30 minutes or so after the B race. I don't think it is fair to allow mob flying.


Our fees are set per flyer. Bird limits are set depending on how many people are flying versus space on the trailer. Our YB limits are usually like 10-13 per race (we have A and B races each weekend by the way).

I think it would be nice to pay-as-you-go. If this YB season starts out like the previous two, where I lose the majority of my birds on the first race, then I won't be racing YBs anymore. I don't like wasting $140 just to fly one race and get 5 pigeons back.


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## swagg (Feb 13, 2011)

I def think there should be a limit. Is it safe to compare it to a track team. One school could go and get 1500 people to run on their team and then one only has ten. Who has the better odds. Yeah i know the fastest bird is the fastest bird, but there are to many variables that play into that as well. Your odds have to be better with a mob flying back to your loft then you do with just a few..........


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Also when you have a ton of birds going one way, others tend to follow. Especially in YBs where they still have a horrible habit of wanting to cling to others. A lot of birds get dragged along to the largest club/largest flock.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

I think there should be limits. _Maybe_ limits could be self imposing by charging a premium per bird over X amount of birds. If the premium were high enough then the "shotgun" flyer would not be able to afford do his nonsense and a true race to test the birds would happen.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I like the way my combine does it. We have a a 20 bird limit in YB's and an 35 bird limit in OB's since we have less shippers in OB's we more room on the truck to put more birds per loft. You pay per bird no matter how many birds you put in but if you races a race you must pay for atleast 5 birds. So if you only put in 3 you pay for 5 anyway. But we can limit the birds and still have a big race since we have over 160 shippers in YB's and around 100 in OB's.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Not that we can limit it's more like we have to limit the amount of birds shipped. Our truck packed to the brim can hold 3,000 birds. Thats 25 birds per crate with 120 crates. Thats 80 crates in the racks and another 40 filling up the isle which we usally have a full 40 in the isle in YB's. So even 20 birds per loft could be to many since we have over 150 guys that and if they all shipped the 20 bird limit the truck is full. And we have over 150 guys who ship and we have over 200 members who could possibly ship. So if we had everybody ship we'd have a problem. Ppl bring it up all the time that we need a new truck or trailer but there's to many thick headed ppl to get it through to them that we need it.


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

You forgot to mention that in the Federtation you fly you pay $150.00 to fly 100 to 600 miles and $100.00 to fly young birds 100 to 300 miles. That is $250.00 to fly old and young birds the whole season...... What more can you ask for......LOL.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

"No Limit" ---means it will not be long before you will have "No Club".
A few members will pull out and start an "invitalional" only club --NO Mob Flyers or Trouble Makers--that flys for the fun of having a Pigeon come Home.


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

This is the way I see it. If there is room in the truck bring on the mob fliers.. When there is no room in the truck have to look at limit.. As long as we can keep shipping cost down everyone wins... The truth is at the end of the day the best pigeoin in your loft will most of the time be the first one home. I have won races shipping 3 to a race and won races shipping 40. If you are a good handler the best bird will come to the top........


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

We have a different problem. $300+ per member per season. That is $600+ a year to race OB and YB. Now while I like the idea of keeping individual entries down I want to get my monies worth. That means I want to fly birds. 

But then we have guys with hundreds of birds. My little YB flock that I hope to get up to 30 racing birds (3x10 bird team) represents less than ONE TEAM for some of these guys. So how do we make it fair?

We have a 30 bird limit at the combine. But for $600 I am not sure it is fair when we have empty crates. If we go to pay/bird then we have a bigger issue when folks run out of birds and we need to calculate the cost. 

I really see this issue as a no win. Small guys get shafted either way. Big guys get shafted wither way. 

That said I do support limits. But I think it needs to be at the club level, not combine. The combine should limit the number of crates on the truck for each club (based on bids from the clubs). Then the clubs should fill the crates how thy see fit.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

The796 said:


> This is the way I see it. If there is room in the truck bring on the mob fliers.. When there is no room in the truck have to look at limit.. As long as we can keep shipping cost down everyone wins... The truth is at the end of the day the best pigeoin in your loft will most of the time be the first one home. I have won races shipping 3 to a race and won races shipping 40. If you are a good handler the best bird will come to the top........


Why would you bring 40 birds to a race? You should know which birds are your best. Why not show what they are made of and send 1-3 birds???


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

I just said a good handler with good birds can ship 1 and win the race!! You fly 40 so at the end of the season you can just keep the best ones for the future. Isn't the goal of every loft to breed a pigeon that can compette against anyone in the world......


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

The796 said:


> I just said a good handler with good birds can ship 1 and win the race!! You fly 40 so at the end of the season you can just keep the best ones for the future. Isn't the goal of every loft to breed a pigeon that can compette against anyone in the world......


So are you saying that you have no idea what your birds can do before a race and send off 40 just to see? Don't you road train them? Do you do single realeases on the road?

I just can't see from what you have said as to why you need to put 40 birds in 1 race. I surmise you take yourself to be at least a good handler so what is the deal?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

rpalmer said:


> So are you saying that you have no idea what your birds can do before a race and send off 40 just to see? Don't you road train them? Do you do single realeases on the road?
> 
> I just can't see from what you have said as to why you need to put 40 birds in 1 race. I surmise you take yourself to be at least a good handler so what is the deal?


Its pretty simple...by the time the birds get to old bird season then yes I have a pretty good idea on what bird is capable of doing what. But, also, in youngbirds a lot of the times I don't know which bird can do what. I have had birds train great, be first home and then they are always late on the race. I have had birds be late, get lost in training and then perform well in the races. Also, a lot of people like to guard against weather changes. Ever had weather predicted to be great for a race and then look what happens its raining. I want to make sure I have birds in the race that can perform in all the different possible weather situations...seldomly can one particular bird win a smash and also win a 2300+ ypm race. If you have a bird that does that he is a champion in ever nature of the word.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I`m a small loft guy...I have been doing what my dad has done for many years...Breed a small team,and give more attention to each pigeon....I usally ship 10 to 15 birds per YB race...My complete team will probally be 20/22 birds to start with....
Our combine here has a 30 bird limit...That`s good enough to get all your birds in a few races,if you breed 40 to 60 YB`s....If you breed 100 + birds,you need to ship more birds per race,so that you can find out which are your best birds...That`s why some guys ship 40 or more to a race....They breed many birds,and the only way to find out who your racers are,is to ship them....I don`t care for mob flyers,but I do understand that they need to ship alot of pigeons,to prove their breeding pairs....It`s a double edge sword,for sure.....
The best thing I can tell the guys who ship just a few birds to a race,when you BEAT the guys shipping 60 to 100 birds each race,doesn`t that make you feel real good ???
* You Bet IT Does !!!!! *........ Alamo


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Matt Bell said:


> Its pretty simple...by the time the birds get to old bird season then yes I have a pretty good idea on what bird is capable of doing what. But, also, in youngbirds a lot of the times I don't know which bird can do what. I have had birds train great, be first home and then they are always late on the race. I have had birds be late, get lost in training and then perform well in the races. Also, a lot of people like to guard against weather changes. Ever had weather predicted to be great for a race and then look what happens its raining. I want to make sure I have birds in the race that can perform in all the different possible weather situations...seldomly can one particular bird win a smash and also win a 2300+ ypm race. If you have a bird that does that he is a champion in ever nature of the word.


OK let's stick to young birds. Working in reverse of your post. A bird that clocks 2300+ ypm has a tail wind that makes the race sorta inconsequential.You could almost race a brick with that much wind. A smash race for YB's seem more and more common with these "good handlers". Talk won't bring them home and a smash race just shows who is the good handler and who just thinks they are. 

I understand you wanting to know what your birds will do in different conditions but I would think you would train for that and know.

I maintain my position that there should be limits to the number of birds allowed by one flier in a race unless he wants to pay a hefty premium per bird just to see what will happen to his birds and screw up what should be a test of your best vs. the other guy's best, and not a training toss where someone else does your work for you.
Have fun and enjoy training you birds.


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

rpalmer let me tell you a little secret. If my goal was just to win a race I can send 1 and get the job done. I know more about my birds than most handlers do about theirs. I can pick an individual bird out of the 40 in the air and tell you everything you want to know about it. Out of the 40 I want to find the very best the super pigeon for my future. That can only be done by putting them in the basket and on the races to prove themself. Hope this help...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Alamo said:


> I`m a small loft guy...I have been doing what my dad has done for many years...Breed a small team,and give more attention to each pigeon....I usally ship 10 to 15 birds per YB race...My complete team will probally be 20/22 birds to start with....
> Our combine here has a 30 bird limit...That`s good enough to get all your birds in a few races,if you breed 40 to 60 YB`s....If you breed 100 + birds,you need to ship more birds per race,so that you can find out which are your best birds...That`s why some guys ship 40 or more to a race....They breed many birds,and the only way to find out who your racers are,is to ship them....I don`t care for mob flyers,but I do understand that they need to ship alot of pigeons,to prove their breeding pairs....It`s a double edge sword,for sure.....
> The best thing I can tell the guys who ship just a few birds to a race,when you BEAT the guys shipping 60 to 100 birds each race,doesn`t that make you feel real good ???
> * You Bet IT Does !!!!! *........ Alamo


If a pewrson raises 100 birds THEY do not need to try to race every bird. They should road train them right and select the birds that performed best for them. That lets the person reduce the birds down to a good team that can be managed better to race from. THIS needs to be done early so the team can be selected say at least 2 months or more before race season.. AS trying to race every bird that comes home from training sTILL birds get lost on the races. Because they were not the better birds to race with. A 20 30 bird team is managed better And even better when those birds were selected for a team. NOT just left overs.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

The796 said:


> You forgot to mention that in the Federtation you fly you pay $150.00 to fly 100 to 600 miles and $100.00 to fly young birds 100 to 300 miles. That is $250.00 to fly old and young birds the whole season...... What more can you ask for......LOL.


Wow that's cheap. We pay close to $100 a week to ship part of that is capital for prizes but still to fly the 10 YB and the 10 OB races it cost us close to $2000 a year. That's only the begining with all the money races and auction races here we easily spend another $3000 on bands and auction birds. Now with the convention race thats another $500 to enter my 5 birds. Good thing Alamo sent me those 2 birds to handle for the convention so I can win some of my money back.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Sure it's a nice fare to pay that much. But the question here is that should there be a limit? Here's a hypothetical example: If it came down to just numbers, I would rather race in a trailer with 3,000 pigeons, against 100 guys who each have 30 young birds. I know those are perfect numbers, but would victory be so much sweeter if you beat 100 guys and those bird numbers rather than 50 guys with sixty birds? 

Me personally, I would rather beat more handlers than more pigeons.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> Sure it's a nice fare to pay that much. But the question here is that should there be a limit? Here's a hypothetical example: If it came down to just numbers, I would rather race in a trailer with 3,000 pigeons, against 100 guys who each have 30 young birds. I know those are perfect numbers, but would victory be so much sweeter if you beat 100 guys and those bird numbers rather than 50 guys with sixty birds?
> 
> Me personally, I would rather beat more handlers than more pigeons.


Then propose a derby (either 3 or 5 bird pick) that goes each week as a 3rd race series. Lots of combines do this and its fun as usually there is a prize to win. I really don't think there should be a limit, and keep in mind I think the most birds I have EVER sent to a race was 12, I always flew a small team. I flew against guys that flew 140+ birds each race and had no problem with it whether I won or lost. In my opinion the best bird is going to win. If a particular bird isn't smart enough to get out of the drag of the mob flier then does it really deserve to win to start with? I think not. It adds more strategy to the series in my opinion.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

rpalmer said:


> OK let's stick to young birds. Working in reverse of your post. A bird that clocks 2300+ ypm has a tail wind that makes the race sorta inconsequential.You could almost race a brick with that much wind. A smash race for YB's seem more and more common with these "good handlers". Talk won't bring them home and a smash race just shows who is the good handler and who just thinks they are.
> 
> I understand you wanting to know what your birds will do in different conditions but I would think you would train for that and know.
> 
> ...


Well, I would disagree that the race is inconsequential...it counts for champion bird, champion loft, average speed etc etc just as much as all the other races do. Now, I see you live in Ohio, I don't know how the whether is there but this is what it is like where I fly. We fly over desert then prairie. No mountains. We fly a southerly course, where the wind is prevailing SW most of the time. Now, lets say that the prediction is a sunny day with a tail wind of 20+ mph, which is not unusual at all on the course. You send all sprint birds to the race. Low and behold showers and storms pop up just like they seem to do at some point in the spring on race day, unpredicted. Bam, its a smash race, and you send all of your sprint, tail wind birds. You don't clock in race time because there was a limit which you used up based on a weather report. Me, I would rather send a bird(s) that I know will clock in any possible situation. So, on the race I sent 12 birds, the most ever for me, I sent 5 sprint birds, 3 'mudders' in case of a smash, and the other 4 were birds that would fly 1300 ypm, just kind of average in case there was no winds. Low and behold guess what...it was a smash race, one of my mudders clocked in at 686 ypm, placed 9th I believe in the combine and kept me alive for average speed. Good thing I didn't do what the odds said I should, and send all sprint birds in the anticipation of the 2000+ypm race like a lot of people would do.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

sky tx said:


> "No Limit" ---means it will not be long before you will have "No Club".
> A few members will pull out and start an "invitalional" only club --NO Mob Flyers or Trouble Makers--that flys for the fun of having a Pigeon come Home.


*Well said Sky, I have always felt open shipping was not good for the sport.I feel that 30-35 bird limit is high enough. ..GEORGE*


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Matt Bell said:


> Well, I would disagree that the race is inconsequential...it counts for champion bird, champion loft, average speed etc etc just as much as all the other races do. Now, I see you live in Ohio, I don't know how the whether is there but this is what it is like where I fly. We fly over desert then prairie. No mountains. We fly a southerly course, where the wind is prevailing SW most of the time. Now, lets say that the prediction is a sunny day with a tail wind of 20+ mph, which is not unusual at all on the course. You send all sprint birds to the race. Low and behold showers and storms pop up just like they seem to do at some point in the spring on race day, unpredicted. Bam, its a smash race, and you send all of your sprint, tail wind birds. You don't clock in race time because there was a limit which you used up based on a weather report. Me, I would rather send a bird(s) that I know will clock in any possible situation. So, on the race I sent 12 birds, the most ever for me, I sent 5 sprint birds, 3 'mudders' in case of a smash, and the other 4 were birds that would fly 1300 ypm, just kind of average in case there was no winds. Low and behold guess what...it was a smash race, one of my mudders clocked in at 686 ypm, placed 9th I believe in the combine and kept me alive for average speed. Good thing I didn't do what the odds said I should, and send all sprint birds in the anticipation of the 2000+ypm race like a lot of people would do.


Well Matt I read this and tried to eat dinner and can't finish it until I say this. First I need to say that you are right and I am wrong. While I have traveled 1/2 of the U.S. none of it has been west of St. Louis,Mo. and never to Fl. and my perspective was on what I know having lived my entire life on the shore of Lake Erie. So with regards to your example of a smash race I cheerfully concede. I also concede that a race that clocks a bird at 2300+ ypm does count. It is a race run and finished.

But you make my case in another way. You know your birds. You sent birds to cover your bets so to speak as far as the weather goes in your area.

You are not shotgunning 40 birds out there just to see what they will do and how many make it home. You have trained them and know them. And you race accordingly.

So once again I was wrong on a couple of points. I hate being wrong. But when I am.. I am. 

Take care Sir. And thanks for the correction.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RE LEE......If a loft breeds 100+ YB`s.....HE HAS TO RACE THEM,to find out which are the best birds...You CANNOT learn which birds are your best just training them....
Example......You build a 55 chevy with a 350 engine,and 411 rear end etc...You drive it around the highway,and it`s fast.....But I ask you,will it win,when you take it to a 1/4 mile dragway,or will you just say it could,and you don`t GO and PROVE it to yourself and ME ???
You got to race the car,to see if can WIN or not.... The pigeons are the same.....You have to get them with all the other birds from all over your club/combine`s area.....Will they pull away and lead,or will they follow....Training doesn`t do it....Alamo


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

In ABQ they have two clubs over this dilema. The fliers split a few years ago because a select few wanted 20 birds limits and some wanted no limits. So you have one club with about 22 guys flying 20 each or about 400 birds a race. On the other hand you have a small club with two mob fliers 100-150 birds each and a few small guys again 400 birds a race. A few of us have brought up a compromise. One club with a limit of 30 birds along with a training toss after the race like Becky mentioned. Charge a $1 a bird to train. That would make the races between 700-900 birds. The mob flier club has a 1500 bird trailer. We even suggested an A and B race one with limits one without. Too many people in this world that want it their way. Pigeon fliers are pains in the butt.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree with Randy. If it was up to me (if it was up to anyone of us), I would set a limit at 50 birds, and each bird that is sent after that will be $1 per race bird, and $0.50 for a training bird. Gas costs do not discriminate, especially when the average cost for a gallon of unleaded gas will be about $5 bucks. Not so kind to the wallet.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Alamo said:


> RE LEE......If a loft breeds 100+ YB`s.....HE HAS TO RACE THEM,to find out which are the best birds...You CANNOT learn which birds are your best just training them....
> Example......You build a 55 chevy with a 350 engine,and 411 rear end etc...You drive it around the highway,and it`s fast.....But I ask you,will it win,when you take it to a 1/4 mile dragway,or will you just say it could,and you don`t GO and PROVE it to yourself and ME ???
> You got to race the car,to see if can WIN or not.... The pigeons are the same.....You have to get them with all the other birds from all over your club/combine`s area.....Will they pull away and lead,or will they follow....Training doesn`t do it....Alamo


 I still think different. As some people will start there birds training And go the 4 directions 10 mile to 25 each way. Then down the line of the race course. To the 100 mile mark. Clocking and recording there birds while removing the birds that respond less. And from that they come up with a solid team where they 1 have less lost birds. 2 have a smaller team to finish getting ready. 3 and have the birds best ready to do better in the races. Where keeping and flying every birds. You find you satill get lost birds. And at the end of the season how many are left that were the more consistant birds. AND like the 55 chevy A good builder DOES have a rather good idea how the car will do if raced. because they built it for what they needed it to do. Remember only a handful of each years young birds are the good race birds. The others well they may get home but getting home does not win the race or place in the race. I ask you when you are done in a young bird season How many of your 20 30 young birds are left. how many were your top clock birds how many were in the top ten percent of the club/ combine. If a person has NO idea about there birds after they trained them Then they do not know there birds very well.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RE LEE.......In the last 4 years,I have lost 24 YB`s.....That`s an average of 6 per year...I usally breed 30/32 YB`s.....I send out a couple to maybe a Convention race.....I give 6 to 10 to a good buddy.....I usually have around 20/22 to fly myself.....Last year I started with 20 birds,ended up with 15 when it was all over...Out of the 15 birds,there were 5 or 6 that clocked well when I flew them...Took 4th place Auction race with one bird,losing the race by 1 min,33 sec.....Alamo


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Great topic last night i shipped 15 vs 60,60,40,30,20,20,40,30,40. bring it!


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

[MN]eXist^_^ said:


> Great topic last night i shipped 15 vs 60,60,40,30,20,20,40,30,40. bring it!


Good luck, let us know how they do.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

The club I was in in Michigan had a 25 bird limit for young birds A & B race with only one race at the end of the season without a bird limit. By the time we got to that race almost no one had extra birds for the race.

Were there can still be a problem with this is were a husband, wife and kids all put birds in the races. Now you still have 60 birds or more all flying to the same place.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> Were there can still be a problem with this is were a husband, wife and kids all put birds in the races. Now you still have 60 birds or more all flying to the same place.


There are always loopholes.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

ace in the hole said:


> The club I was in in Michigan had a 25 bird limit for young birds A & B race with only one race at the end of the season without a bird limit. By the time we got to that race almost no one had extra birds for the race.
> 
> Were there can still be a problem with this is were a husband, wife and kids all put birds in the races. Now you still have 60 birds or more all flying to the same place.


That wouldn't be fair. 
The combine has 3 people flying out of one loft. Easy to tell when they all have the same or extremely close milages. I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that says lofts have to be 50 ft or 50 yards or something like that apart.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> That wouldn't be fair.
> The combine has 3 people flying out of one loft. Easy to tell when they all have the same or extremely close milages. I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that says lofts have to be 50 ft or 50 yards or something like that apart.


Nope, the AU rule just says that each loft must submit a band list before the series begins so that they can't switch birds from one team to another.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes Mary--I also think there is rules--About 2 or more can't fly to the same loft----maybe-- each loft has to have different address- or maybe the limit of the number of birds flying to the same loft. If the shipping limit is 20---then only 20 birds flying to the same loft.
Something is NOT right with that club.
I'd be looking for another Club---Start another Club and he &/or members of his family WOULD no be a Member
YEP---big money has ruined the sport.

Matt--explain what you mean--"EACH LOFT"--one loft and 3 members flying to it?
OR 3 lofts at the same Address?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

We have 4 separate lofts on premise. 3 of them are separated by over 100' (I have the luxury of a big yard). I also have a double lot that technically has 2 addresses. So there is no way to really prevent this if someone really wants to do it.

But do we really want to prevent it? Consider my situation. My son and are are competitive. More with each other than the club (differences of why we are competitive). Wouldn't it be fun for each of us to raise our share of the birds and add that level of "whose the better handler" competition? Then there is the daughter. She picks bird based on "pretty". Her picks keep winning. She claims she can beat us. That would be fun as well. And Mrs just wants to have her own flock. Why should we exclude her from the fun?

Again, this is just me. If my family each wants to race their own flock and I am willing to pay SEPARATE shipping fees then why shouldn't we be allowed to have some in home competition? 

I do realize that we are not normal and that there are "bad people" out there.


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## Barn Pigeon (Feb 11, 2005)

I think there should be either a clocking limit or a bird limit. Our Combine has a bird limit per flyer. But when you have more than 2 flying out of same loft. Same loft means it is all one structure and not 2 or three inches apart. If only two fly out of the same loft the most you could have would be double the limit. Still you are behind the limit 20 vs 40. But only 20 per flyer. Hear is what I call the clocking limit. Winspeed or what ever you use. It takes in count all birds ,even if some leave their clocks runing till bump time next day or 2 days. Some say you need to clock as many as possible so you can make the newbie look like he will never be in top 50%. Don't even think about top 10-20 %. So in couple of years he /she is out of the sport. Our last race over half our members didn't put down all their clocked birds. I have seen ypm in 100-200 ypm on the race sheet ,WHY ?. If it was your only bird ,YES. If it was 23/25, please. Just tell Race Sec to delete it . The race winner was 1400 ypm. If we as a sport don't think about sportmanship these 5-6 member clubs will never grow. There is more fun in beating 10 or 12 flyers then winning over 2-3 flyers. 
That's my 2 cents on limits both flying and clocking.
Barn Pigeon


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

rpalmer said:


> Why would you bring 40 birds to a race? You should know which birds are your best. Why not show what they are made of and send 1-3 birds???


We had our first federation race today. Most years we have a club 100 mile warn up but couldn't this year . So the first race was almost 200 miles and I only had my birds out 30 miles training. Now I shipped 53 birds, 1 other guy sent 54 birds and other sent 2 birds and one guy 10 and last guy 12 birds.

Who made the right choise ? I 'am still out 10 birds as of 8:20 pm. Our next race is about 250 miles this week was 200 miles. Why hold the birds back untill next weeks 250 if they don't fly or can't fly the 200 miles ? The birds were liberated at 7:00am my first bird was 9:59:47 am. I think second place to the 54 bird guy beat my bird by 3 miles over fly and 5 seconds. My 17 bird was 10:45:17 am . I now have my race birds picked for next week. 18 bird was 11:00:06 and the 43 bird was 18:05:27 They need more rest and more training . The most I can train is 3 days next week 20 to 50 miles each toss.
I now have 43 birds with 200 miles on them and I'm sure I'll get a few more in tomorrow. Hope you can see why we both me and the 54 bird man sent all our bird to the race today. What do the others guys know now? 

I know that was long but I will add that I fly in the same federation as Kal-El only he is 100 miles shorter than me and in a different club. All the future races will just get longer for us too.

P.S. I should tell you all that most of my top birds today were flying to fake eggs in their nest.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Pigeon Flyers just like to complain -about any Subject.
I would BET THAT several would complain about being "HUNG" with a "NEW" rope.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> That wouldn't be fair.
> The combine has 3 people flying out of one loft. Easy to tell when they all have the same or extremely close milages. I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that says lofts have to be 50 ft or 50 yards or something like that apart.


Where I fly we have a 20 bird limit in YB's an a 35 bird limit in OB"s and you can only have one loft per address for race perposes you can have all the lofts you want but only one can be in the races no matter if you have 50 ppl living at your address. There's a few rich guys who get around the rule by buyng two houses next to each other so they can put twice the amount of birds in each week. But I know in some clubs in Florida they have more then one flyer flying out of the same yard.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

ERIC, I would take your day bird on the Midwest Classic over mine any day. *thumbs up*


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## Good Sport (Apr 30, 2011)

*Sportsmanship*

Shipping limits have been debated for years. It always has its roots in sportsmanship. If a big shipper wins it is because he shipped a lot of birds and the small loft demes this unfair. I have been flying birds for over 35 years and have seen this debated 100s of times. I have yet to see any connection with birds shipped to races won. I have seen a lot of connection with good handlers good birds well conditioned to races won. I have always said rather than look at your competition and demonize them for shipping more birds or having better loft position or maybe having more money to buy good birds try to look in the mirror and see the problem of winning and losing is staring back at you in the mirror.
Getting back to shipping limits. If there is a good reason for limiting birds say because the transport is not big enough that is fine but if we start to limit birds than why not ask the question why am I trying to compete if I really do not like competition Flying in a organization that pays by the bird is like going to a store and buying something that has no price tag on it you only find out what it cost at the check out no one would ever do that so why do we do it in the pigeon game? Every organization should know what their expenses will be for shipping, driver gas act. If you do not know what your income will be than right back at that check out line not knowing what you are about to pay, it makes no sense at all. The last guy standing picks the whole tab up for the shipping. How would you like to not know what your shipping cost are going to be, this is what it is like to fly in a organization that pays per bird. One race is one price and another race is another price depending on how many birds are shipped less birds more money. The same guys that go after the mob flyers for shipping a lot of birds that contribute to larger liberations are the same guys bragging at the club that they just bought a bird that won a race against thousands of birds. A winner is a winner you can limit them change directions on them not feed there birds in the race crates and do whatever you can think up but they will always find a way to win. So while you try to find ways to limit your compatition the real winners are working on better ways to keep winning. My mother always said if you can't take the heat than get out of the kitchen.


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## Senator (Apr 30, 2011)

*Just Fly Them*

First of all, the pigeon that wins the race is not the best pigeon; it is the pigeon with the wind in its favor. The bird that wins is not the fastest; it is the bird that flew the shortest distance. The wind can dramatically change the number of air miles flown. It can easily make for a 25% difference in air miles with only a 10 MPH wind. That is a 200 mile race could actually be 220 miles for some birds and a 180 mile race for others.

Secondly, what makes a race is not the winning bird, it is the losing birds. I can win every race if I have the only birds in the race. But what good is that? If I have a 1,000 losers in the race, that is what makes it a race.

If a trailer is full, limit the birds to include everyone, including new flyers. If the trailer is not full, fill it up. You do not make any money going down the road empty. If you want a small race, consider your training tosses a race. You can win every time. Buy yourself a trophy if you want.

Now quit crying about losing. It's more about the wind direction and loft location than birds anyway. Have fun, keep your birds healthy, and when the wind is in your favor you will win.


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## Senator (Apr 30, 2011)

Just to clarify...

"That is a 200 mile race could actually be 220 miles for some birds and a 180 mile race for others."

Two lofts, with the same 200-mile GPS reading. The pigeons could fly 180 and 200 miles respectively, even if they fly in the most direct line, straight to their loft if the winds are right. One birds could fly 40 extra miles, but not be credited for the 40 extra miles flown in the race calculations.

So, do not tell me that your $1,000 bird was fast, until you know the winds.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kal-El said:


> How do you feel when it comes to limits or no limits on shipping birds? Is it fair?
> 
> For example, the combine I fly with, there is no limit for shipping. You can send ten birds or one hundred birds and the fee is still the same.
> 
> ...


 The "debate" on shipping limits is as old as the hills I think. Here is another one you didn't mention, but is currently the rule in the United Pigeon Combine of which our club is a member, and that is a clocking limit. Our Combine has both a 20 bird shipping limit, and a 3 bird clocking limit. 

These rules were put into place I suspect a long time ago as a result of various compromises. There are always going to be people who won't be happy no matter what rules are made. Same thing when it comes to the race course or any other aspect of pigeon racing. 

Some of the rules that various combines have come up with don't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't really know if the rules that the UPC has settled with are the best, or they have just been around for so long, that I have just gotten use to them. There are issues which need to be addressed by each individual combine, not the least of which is the shipping capacity of the truck. But if you have individual members who are willing to bear additional expense to ship a hundred pigeons, or five hundred pigeons, I don't see any reason why facilities, equipment, rules and regulations could not be adjusted to accommodate them. We are after all, in the pigeon racing business !! I know if I happen to have the 1st Place Winner of a race, I would rather have 7500 birds in that race, then only 750. I never really understood the bias towards those fliers who have a larger number of pigeons. Even the term "Mob" flier is a negative term IMHO, and I don't understand why some people detest these fanciers. 

I have heard of situations where maybe 300 pigeons are on a truck which can hold 2000 pigeons on a 500 mile race, and the event must be subsidized by other races, because of the expense of these longer races. Now to me, it would make more sense to allow additional birds to be shipped for a fee in order to help offset the additional expenses. I can imagine in such a situation that there will be those who view someone who is willing to underwrite part of the expenses by shipping additional pigeons as "unfair". I always thought it was "unfair" that YB fliers must subsidize those expensive 500 mile OB events which are going to the race event with a truck 3/4's or more empty, but hey that is me. 

How various clubs and combines have settled on how and what to charge seems to be all over the place, and some would seem like a nightmare to administer or to run a budget. That's the problem with democracy and compromise, you end up with some pretty stupid rules and regulations. Somewhere along the line, and I see it starting to happen a little bit here and there, someone with some deeper pockets is buying a truck and running these racing events like a business. Here are the rules, regulations and the fees to play. If you like em fine, come pay the fees, fly and enjoy yourself. If you don't then fine, go find someplace else to fly that will put up with your belly aching horse manure. 

As for me, I don't really care what the rules are, as long as they are followed and don't change from week to week. If I was to made Czar there would be no shipping limits nor clocking limits. If the demand was there, then we would simply get a bigger truck and if necessary a fleet of trucks. Just to keep things simple or fairly simple, there would be a flat fee for both old birds and young birds, and that would allow you to ship say 20 birds a week to a race, above that would be a per bird or per crate fee. No system will be perfect, but my goal would be to increase the number of pigeons in the races while also lowering the per bird cost. In other words, it should be less expensive per bird to ship say 2000 birds to a 500 mile race, then to only send 300 birds to the same race. Otherwise we might as well just set a one bird limit and ship the birds down in a mini-van or SUV. The winner may then only claim 1st place out of 75 birds, but at least you won't have those three members who whine about mob fliers !


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Warren great to hear for you on this.

I would like to add this bit of information :Greard Koopman entered about 100 pigeons in the Sun City Million Dollar 2011 Race, thats only 1.5% of the total entry of 6,611 pigeons. His First pigeon clocked was 44th place. If you were to inter 3 pigeons you would be .04% of the total. Kitchenbrand won 1st with 51 pigeons intered that he got from Klaas.
Ali Mutlaq Al-Maiea intered 4 pigeons and finished 11th and 26th, and3rd and 11th overall average. Like wise Sam Syndicate Loft intered two pigeons and finished 35th and 37th in the final race. You all can draw your own conclusion from this.
this infromation was taken from an article in racing pigeon digest


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Big team flyer results for Futurity Bond races(different years)....

2006.....Shipped 63.....1st bird was 1oth place...
2007...... " 118.....won 1st to 4th,6th,8th etc.....
2009..... " 90......1st bird was 25th place.....

So you can see even shipping many birds,your not going to win them all....The lofts shipping average was 35 per race...The birds average per race was 500......Divide 500 by 35 lofts,and that equals 14 birds per loft....As you can see,the average per loft is real small,but he won only one of the 3 races shipping alot of birds....There`s no quarentee just because a guy ships alot of birds,that he is going to win....Alamo


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

It depends mostly on the health and condition of each bird. A lot of times it is the loft that starts the season with 30 birds or less that beats them. Their lofts are not over crouded and it is easyer to maintain good health and condition with fewer birds. Also a bird that has lots of room and has his choice of perches is more happy at home then one that has to fight for a perch every day.

I think the bigest question and problem people are concerned with here is the mob flyers having the drag to pull their birds off their line home. If birds are trained right and they learn to break from the flock (as they should) the mob flyer will have no efect on their best birds. The only time a mob flyer has the advantage over others is the first few race of the young bird season when the birds are just getting this game figured out.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Senator said:


> First of all, the pigeon that wins the race is not the best pigeon; it is the pigeon with the wind in its favor. The bird that wins is not the fastest; it is the bird that flew the shortest distance. The wind can dramatically change the number of air miles flown. It can easily make for a 25% difference in air miles with only a 10 MPH wind. That is a 200 mile race could actually be 220 miles for some birds and a 180 mile race for others.
> 
> Secondly, what makes a race is not the winning bird, it is the losing birds. I can win every race if I have the only birds in the race. But what good is that? If I have a 1,000 losers in the race, that is what makes it a race.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? From what I got out of what your saying is that the bird that wins just won because of the wind was in their favor. If that were it then every bird from that loft should win or be equal first if the race was in that lofts favor. And there would be no point in racing all you'd have to do is look at the weather channel and see what the winds are and you'd know who the winner would be. We fly from WSW to the ENE and I'm on the southern side of the lofts on Long Island and I win races where the wind is blowing the birds up to the north shore. And the stuff about one bird flying a shoter distence then another bird with the same 200 mile GPS reading. Thats your job as the handler to get the birds to take the straitest route home. If your bird is flying an extra 40 miles and not getting credit for it you didn't do your job motivating the bird to want to get home.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> What are you talking about? From what I got out of what your saying is that the bird that wins just won because of the wind was in their favor. If that were it then every bird from that loft should win or be equal first if the race was in that lofts favor. And there would be no point in racing all you'd have to do is look at the weather channel and see what the winds are and you'd know who the winner would be. We fly from WSW to the ENE and I'm on the southern side of the lofts on Long Island and I win races where the wind is blowing the birds up to the north shore. And the stuff about one bird flying a shoter distence then another bird with the same 200 mile GPS reading. Thats your job as the handler to get the birds to take the straitest route home. If your bird is flying an extra 40 miles and not getting credit for it you didn't do your job motivating the bird to want to get home.


I agree. The first year I raced pigeons I was 45 miles off the line of flight. I still had some good birds who placed well. One race where the winds were not in my favor my first bird came home and set in a tree for almost 5 minutes before trapping. She still took 2nd club and 6th combine. If she would have trapped right in she would have had 1st club and combine. Another day we had a good west wind that blew the birds my way. I took seven out off the top ten places but I did not take 1st.

Loft position and wind direction will make a difference but it will still come down to health, condition, training and motivation.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> What are you talking about? From what I got out of what your saying is that the bird that wins just won because of the wind was in their favor. If that were it then every bird from that loft should win or be equal first if the race was in that lofts favor. And there would be no point in racing all you'd have to do is look at the weather channel and see what the winds are and you'd know who the winner would be. We fly from WSW to the ENE and I'm on the southern side of the lofts on Long Island and I win races where the wind is blowing the birds up to the north shore. And the stuff about one bird flying a shoter distence then another bird with the same 200 mile GPS reading. Thats your job as the handler to get the birds to take the straitest route home. If your bird is flying an extra 40 miles and not getting credit for it you didn't do your job motivating the bird to want to get home.


Every pigeon flier should come up with a good list of excuses so that when he arrives at the club he or she won't use the same one they used the week before, here are a couple of good ole tried and true excuses.....in no particular order.

1. Yeah sure...Mr. x (fill in the guy who won) can win...he sends x (fill in the number of birds) every week !

2. Yeah sure...Mr. X can win...he is on the short end.

3. Yeah sure...Mr. X can win....he is on the long end.

4. Yeah sure...Mr. X won...but that is because my bird came home and did victory laps for an hour (don't make the flying around the loft time too long, it has to be believeable)

5. Yeah sure...Mr. X won, he spends money on the good birds !

6. Yeah sure Mr. X can win....he is retired and so can train....

7. Yeah sure Mr. X won, the wind was blowing in his favor this week.

etc. etc. etc. 

Well, you get the idea, come up with at least 18 different ones, that way you can use a new one every weeek and don't have to recycle the excuses until following years.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

We had a few guys that quit the club and formed their own club. One of their gripes what that they could not win because of the bird limits and that their other 100 birds were not able to train with the truck. So they would go 15 miles short of the release spot and release their birds at the same time as the race. Neither did to bad in the races. When the club voted that you could not train on race day they quit the club. They argued that the 100 birds were droppers. They just released them 100 miles from home. Things guys will do for an advantage.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

hillfamilyloft said:


> We had a few guys that quit the club and formed their own club. One of their gripes what that they could not win because of the bird limits and that their other 100 birds were not able to train with the truck. So they would go 15 miles short of the release spot and release their birds at the same time as the race. Neither did to bad in the races. When the club voted that you could not train on race day they quit the club. They argued that the 100 birds were droppers. They just released them 100 miles from home. Things guys will do for an advantage.


From your web page.."_My situation is unique. I do not have a local club to fly my birds with. Instead, I breed youngbirds and send them off to clubs and futurities around the country. The race results that you see on this page are a true test and reflection of the birds and their abilities to fly in many different environments for many different fanciers._"


Have you since found a club or maybe started one?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> We had a few guys that quit the club and formed their own club. One of their gripes what that they could not win because of the bird limits and that their other 100 birds were not able to train with the truck. So they would go 15 miles short of the release spot and release their birds at the same time as the race. Neither did to bad in the races. When the club voted that you could not train on race day they quit the club. They argued that the 100 birds were droppers. They just released them 100 miles from home. Things guys will do for an advantage.


I don't see how a club could tell you when you could or could not train, or even how they could go about inforcing this rule. That doesn't seem right at all.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

RPALMER....Hard to beleive ther are no clubs near you...Nothing north of you close in Michigan either ???........Alamo


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Alamo said:


> RPALMER....Hard to beleive ther are no clubs near you...Nothing north of you close in Michigan either ???........Alamo


No,, No,,,No.... That was a quote from Mr Hills web page. So I guess he started a club or found one based on his post.

Here in Toledo there is the SFA. A small club that had two of it's members retire to the loft in the sky last year.

I am not a member. I have met with their president, great guy. Total cost of membership is a little tough for me being on a fixed income.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If the demand was there, then we would simply get a bigger truck and if necessary a fleet of trucks.


When I saw this I instantly thought of your post. Pretty cool looking huh? Take care. I know you are already having fun.
http://www.pipa.be/


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Every pigeon flier should come up with a good list of excuses so that when he arrives at the club he or she won't use the same one they used the week before, here are a couple of good ole tried and true excuses.....in no particular order.
> 
> 1. Yeah sure...Mr. x (fill in the guy who won) can win...he sends x (fill in the number of birds) every week !
> 
> ...


Unfortunately some of those excuses are true!

Point #1. The guy is playing probability--why do you think shotgun was invented for? There are guys that play like with a shotgun and some play like with a sniper rifle. And most likely we are not the best snipers in the world that shoot with one bullet and one kill so we try to play shotgun.

Point #2 and Point #3. I am still clueless on this one.

Point #4. Some birds don't trap right away--have you watched the Tyson show? Some just still circle losing time. To me that is handler error.

Point #5. With money you can buy proven birds. You are an example on that.

Point #6. Obviously retired people may have more time to train their birds.

Point #7. That is an obvious advantage. A headwind is hard for the bird. Have you tried rowing a boat against a current?

So those excuses may have contributory elements to losing the race. Now if your bird won the race with a headwind on a long end, with few birds sent, and came from cheap or gifted birds and you work full time with kids in school, then that bird is probably an AU Champion bird!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> Unfortunately some of those excuses are true!
> 
> Point #1. The guy is playing probability--why do you think shotgun was invented for? There are guys that play like with a shotgun and some play like with a sniper rifle. And most likely we are not the best snipers in the world that shoot with one bullet and one kill so we try to play shotgun.
> 
> ...


 Well of course there is always an element of truth in every good tale, why tell a story that everyone up front knows is a bunch of BS ????  It never fails when I win a 1st place win at my club, there is almost always some guy who will say that his bird would have been first, but circled the loft for 20 minutes. Good sport, bad sport ? who knows ? But you can almost always count on some killjoy who rather then walk up and shake your hand and simply say congradulations, will come up with well...let's just say some excuse. It is both sad and well.... expected. 

When the guy who walked up to you the previous week and simply looked you straight in the eye and said congradulations...well don't bother giving this guy the "excuse line" when it is his turn to win. Be a man about it, and say something like....you got me this week, your birds were in better condition and you did a good job congradulations. My list of "excuses" is only for those poor sports who won't give you credit for any win....so when they win, use your list of excuses. I know it's not 100% good sportsmenship, but it is only reserved for those poor sports anyway. Well, that is my story and I am sticking to it !!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Now, I understand. Hates those sore losers myself. But I also hate those winners that brag too much. I think I am equal opportunity haters.

But like you said a good sports is what everyone wants.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

RodSD said:


> ...
> Point #4. Some birds don't trap right away--have you watched the Tyson show? Some just still circle losing time. To me that is handler error.


Please explain to me this "handler error" thing because I once had a cock when even paired to 3 hens at a time, with two of them sitting on eggs , do victory laps that cost him minutes back from the race. Where's the handler error? Isn't 3 hens motivation enough? Should I have starved him two days before the race?
Apart from that, I had already clocked the winner so this is not an excuse, it just happened with this particular bird, always beaten by his loft mates.
@ Warren, It IS a gentleman's manners to always congratulate the winner. I don't like bad losers either.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

jpsnapdy said:


> Please explain to me this "handler error" thing because I once had a cock when even paired to 3 hens at a time, with two of them sitting on eggs , do victory laps that cost him minutes back from the race. Where's the handler error? Isn't 3 hens motivation enough? Should I have starved him two days before the race?
> Apart from that, I had already clocked the winner so this is not an excuse, it just happened with this particular bird, always beaten by his loft mates.
> @ Warren, It IS a gentleman's manners to always congratulate the winner. I don't like bad losers either.


Your birds should be trained at a young age to trap when called, if not then it is your fault plain and simple.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> Your birds should be trained at a young age to trap when called, if not then it is your fault plain and simple.


I plead guilty ! Never stopped me from winning though ! (Open door trapping)


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Matt Bell already explained it well. 

But because you are winning, then it is not all your fault(handler error)! Some birds are just pain in the ass.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I prefer to place any and all blame on any preformance shortfalls on myself, as I am the manager/trainer/owner/coach, and not on the bird. If there is a win, then it is really the bird which won the race. As fanciers we we often get it backwards in my opinion, but hey...that is just me.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

You're probably right Warren, but I don't focus on YB races, except the first year when I started with 12 and ended the season with all 12. I also admit since I have impossible work hours, it's my birds who win for me. All I do is keep them happy and they reciprocate


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## Matt M (Mar 2, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Our Combine has both a 20 bird shipping limit, and a 3 bird clocking limit.


Hi Warren,

I understand the issue of shipping limits in various clubs but am pretty new and had not heard of "clocking limit", such as the 3 bird clocking limit example from your club. What would be the advantage to the club of a clocking limit, to help with the overhead after the race on the results side of things? Just wondering...


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I think there should be a shipping limit. Set the number at around 40 birds. Whatever goes over that number should be charged a surplus amount.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Matt M said:


> Hi Warren,
> 
> I understand the issue of shipping limits in various clubs but am pretty new and had not heard of "clocking limit", such as the 3 bird clocking limit example from your club. What would be the advantage to the club of a clocking limit, to help with the overhead after the race on the results side of things? Just wondering...


The advantage is basically not to let peoples feelings get hurt, but it also falsifies results in my opinion. The guy that wins the race may very well have the first 15 birds on the drop, so in reality the 4th place bird is actually 16th etc etc and the clocking limits are never indicated on the race sheet results so when buying a bird out of a combine like this you don't really know what the bird has accomplished unless it is in the top 3, obviously.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt M said:


> Hi Warren,
> 
> I understand the issue of shipping limits in various clubs but am pretty new and had not heard of "clocking limit", such as the 3 bird clocking limit example from your club. What would be the advantage to the club of a clocking limit, to help with the overhead after the race on the results side of things? Just wondering...


 One must decide what is an advantage and what is a disadvantage, the rule is for the 130 member 9 club combine. 

#1 It avoids one person getting the first 20 positions and thus all of the awards and diplomas...well vast majority of diplomas anyway.

#2 It is less work for race secretary, so if you have 10 members in your club, worse case you must only enter 30 birds, still a bit of typing, but a whole lot better then perhaps 200.


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

klondike goldie said:


> Thats like playing ball and not keeping score. JMO


Which is pretty common in these parts.


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## West (Mar 29, 2009)

Sad. Agree with klondike I wouldn't even want diplomas/awards. I want to know exactly who my birds beat or lost to.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I also agree with klondike. A clocking limit just waters down the results and your winning bird. With a shipping limit, not only does it force the fanciers to send their best, it also can set the shipping weight at a somewhat fixed number. Another good thing is that if they club/combine/concourse/federation does grow, the faux vacant spots can be filled and you would have another person paying for the added shipping weight.


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