# Dove sick



## Vibrissa (Feb 5, 2006)

My pet dove is somewhere between 12 and 15 years of age. We have two doves. We took her to the vet yesterday as she has been sitting around puffed up like she doesn't feel well. He said she has a respiratory infection and has lost a lot of weight (I could tell that when I felt her underbelly and breast and only felt bone. She still perches and is alert. She is now on tetracycline (is that okay to also have her calcium/charcoal grit in her cage?). I was wondering if there is any nutritional product I could/should give her to help her gain some weight, also. They have always had the bagged dove feed from Petsmart--is there a healthier blend/seed I can buy on line with more nutrition and more of what they are supposed to have. Neither one would ever eat fruit or other things--both are between 12 and 15.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Vibrissa,

I am sorry to hear your Dove is not feeling well. I am running a little late, so just a quick reply, please remove the calcium/charcoal grit, as it may interfere with the meds doing their job. Is it just plain Tetracycline your bird is on, or is it Doxycycline and what is the dose your vet prescribed. How long has she been feeling unwell?

Until later.

Good luck with her,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

As Ron mentioned, please pull the grit, it will cause antibiotics in that family
to bind w/it and inhibit it in its' work.

When my birds are sick and not keeping up w/their food intake, I tube feed
Kaytee Exact formula and still leave the seeds out for them. Also, the Pigeon Supply Houses carry what they call 'eggfood' which is a protein crumble that I make sure they have when they are sick as well. You can probably get something similar at the Pet Store....look for Volkman's Gourmet Eggfood.

I'm glad to hear that she is still perching and otherwise acting alert. 

fp


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## Vibrissa (Feb 5, 2006)

Thank you. It is Orange and yellow capsules of Tetracycline (although I have some Doxycycline tablets I could crush if you recommeded that instead). 
I don't know what the capsules are (dosage) but the directions were to mix one capsule contents into 1 pint of water (and I used filtered water)--and just put a small dish of the water in each day (fresh each day). I asked hubby to call back and see really what I could give her to make sure she got the right amount--and he said 1/2 ml twice a day--and it would be okay to still keep the dish of the mixture in the cage as their water (and Kiwi--the other dove could have it as well). Sooo, I have put fresh in again this morning as well as fed her the 1/2 ml of the mixture last night and this morning. I will pull the grit and order some of the eggfood. Also, since I am having a time finding this thread to see if there are any replies, if you have more suggestions, my email is also [email protected] Tks, Sherry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Vibrissa,

The capsules you have described sound like regular Tetracycline capsules. I have a few more questions for you. First, it would help if we knew how long she has been ill, as when you describe the breast mass around her keel bone, it sounds like a while. Do you know what lead your vet to determine she has a respiratory infection, was her breathing laboured, was/is she open mouth breathing, does she have any discharge? Is your vet an avian vet, does he see a fair amount of birds? How much did she weigh, if you know, and what is her current weight? The Doxycycline you mentioned you have, what is the strength of them? Is she self feeding, if so, how well? What do her droppings look like?

Here is a link to help get some more food into her, provided by one of our members Cynthia (cyro51), you may use lentils and split peas for know.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

At the end, you say you are having a hard time finding your thread and for people to email mail you directly with help. Vibrissa, I don't think this is wise, as we act here like a large consulting family, what one misses, another will see and if improper advice or miscalculations are made in med amounts, as I said the others will catch these errors, and add to the help, in a team kind of way. You can just just "grab" the link from your thread in IE, or any Web-browser, and drag it to your desk top for an easy link back, or just remember your thread is in "Sick or Injured Pigeon Discussion".

As fp says, it a good sign she is still perching, by the way, what's her name.

All the best,

Ron


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## Vibrissa (Feb 5, 2006)

I remember her starting to make some sounds like a resp. infection about 4 weeks ago --and sneezing just a little--then it stopped, so I thought she was okay (I just kept her warm). Exactly one month ago today my aunt died and had been in the hosp. up and down as in dying--better--dying--etc. plus I have a full-time job that began in January--the same week my aunt started to go downhill. In this same time period, by 5 pet rats got sick and had to be on meds, and my cat was dying (maybe from pet food, no one seems to know as her test results were all over the charts and the vets couldn't figure it out)--soo, in other words I was going through quite a bit without the "at home" time I had had up until Jan. I wasn't neglecting any of the animals, it just all seemed to happen simultaneously. She has sat fluffed up for about three weeks, but I thought maybe she was cold again (since the sneezing and resp. noises had stopped pretty quickly after the week she had them). 
I can get my son's mailing scale over here tonight maybe and weigh her (or ask hubby if he remembers when the vet weighed her). She WAS breathing with her mouth open on Sunday and there was liquid in in her mouth--clear--
now she is breathing better with her mouth closed. He is the "exotic" animal vet but probably not an avian vet. He is good with rats and as I had one very sick rat, Sophie, who died in my hands this morning (I held her and talked to her all morning as I called in sick today to be with her), and another with a (they think) cancerous tumor on her face--suddenly appeared on Sunday. She is self-feeding, but I don't know how much (she and Kiwi, my other dove, are in the cage together as they have been life-long friends), and her droppings were "watery" before she went to the vet--but not totally liquid. The doxycycline capsules I have are 100 mg each. (I also have Benebac powder--had been for the ratties after their antibiotic courses--from a sister-in-law who has cockatiels. Her name is Coo Coo, she is mostly white with some markings and a ring around her neck. I don't know what she weighed before as she has only been to a vet once to have her toenails trimmed. She had a resp. infection a few years ago (have a wildlife rehabilitator friend who told me what she had and what she needed when she was making sounds while breathing and her coo coo ing was "hoarse" at that time). I gave her what my rehab friend said to give her back then and she got well until now. Coo Coo is a female and Kiwi is a male, brown, morning dove. 
Once the vet asked what they ate, I told him, he said that could give them liver cancer--so much seed and no fruits, etc.--then he asked how old they were. I told him--and he said, "Nevermind--whatever you are doing is just fine!!" Thank you for the link because I always do want to give the best of nutrition to my pets (ratties get organic, dogs and cats are now on Flint River Ranch, etc.). Also, you have a good point about keeping the info here and thank you for the tip of posting the link on my desktop--when I am upset and stressed, I don't think of these things. 

Question--cooked or dried lentils and split peas?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dried lentils and peas. I'm sorry you have been going through so much of late. 

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vibrissa,

If weight is an issue and you are trying to augment the self-feeding in addition to wanting to see this dove put some weight back on again,
another option would be to soak puppy/dog kibble and hand feed that.
Paul Newman has a dog kibble that is organic and has vegetables included
in the recipe. If the pieces are to big you can break them into an appropriate size. This should give you some options feeding wise. Sorry life has been so 
difficult for you, it sure sounds like a full plate.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Vibrissa,

Mr. Squeaks and I thought we would stop by to offer WARM HUGS and THOUGHTS to you and all your babies at this rough time!

I know you will keep us updated.

We will be watching and sending our best WELL wishes!

Shi & Mr. Squeaks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, if you have a bird in the middle of a respiratory infection, you can get them a nebulized treatment of Gentamicin and saline at a vet. That's an antibiotic that doesn't go systemic--it pretty much stays on the surface and kills what's there while the immune system is responsible for getting the stuff that's trying to cross the barrier into the cells and bloodstream. The saline helps by hydrating and softening up any phlegm that might have gotten too dry to move. Because of the relatively long trachea that birds have (it's more susceptible to blockage due to the length/diameter ratio), just a little bit of dried or too-thick phlegm can be life-threatening.

That's just something to think about. Other folks occasionally get the birds into a steamy room to help loosen phlegm, too.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks Terry, fp I wanted to mention soaking a dried kibble of some sort, but I wanted to recommend one such as you did, a quality organic one, and I did not know one off the top of my head.

Vibrissa, it does sound like you have had some trying times lately, and I am hoping things get back to a more normal state for you before too long. With Coo Coo, I am glad to hear that her open beak breathing has abated and does not have discharge now. The regular Tetracycline seems to be working so lets continue with that for now, I am glad that you are administering some by mouth, as this way we are certain Coo Coo is being medicated. Sometimes when medications are put into water and we rely on them to be medicated this way, it can be a hit or miss, as we are never sure exactly how much medication they have in-taken.

I am glad you have the Doxycycline, it is in the Tetracycline family, but of a different generation. It is a stronger medicine with a broader range of organisms that are sensitive to it and deeper tissue penetration. If you find that she stops improving I think it would be a good idea to move her to the Doxycycline.

I think it wise to try and get some weight back on her, I would watch the Youtube link a few times and use the soaked chow/kibble and some lentils, peas and to round things out, to help do this. Keep her meals smaller, ie; don't stuff her to the gills, and feel her crop before each feeding to gage how much she should get. Please do weigh her and do so the same time each day, preferably in the morning before she has eaten anything, to keep track of how her weight is doing.

Good luck with Coo Coo, all the best,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, if no improvement w/the Tetracycline, the Doxy is a good choice, I think
I'd want to keep the vet in the loop w/it, to play it safe in terms of rapport.
I think the Kaytee Exact or the puppy chow are more complete as foods and
would probably help to keep the weight up better, just my observations. The
formula tubing is also a bit more expedient as well, but you need to be comfortable w/this for it to work for you right now. Keeping track of her weight is another good mention as it is most important right now as a guage
of how Coo Coo is doing. You might also get some human probiotics in a capsule and put one down the throat in the evening before bed to help keep their system from going too out of wack from the antibiotics.

fp


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## Vibrissa (Feb 5, 2006)

I misunderstood hubby--it is 1/4 ml of the mixture two times a day--guess she got too much today --or just wasn't as thirsty the rest of the day. I will go get Newman's Own puppy chow tomorrow. I weighed Coo Coo (other "nick name" is White Bird as I love that song), and right now she is 5.1 ounces. I have the digital mail scale here now. Thank you all for your help and caring. Animals are so precious.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vibrissa, that is good news that you have digital scales to work with in hand. I don't think I'd worry 
about giving Coo Coo double the dose right now, in fact frequently we double the doses in the 
beginning to get the medicine "delivered"  . 
Looking forward to your updates for Coo Coo.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vibrissa said:


> My pet dove is somewhere between 12 and 15 years of age. We have two doves. We took her to the vet yesterday as she has been sitting around puffed up like she doesn't feel well. He said she has a respiratory infection and has lost a lot of weight (I could tell that when I felt her underbelly and breast and only felt bone. She still perches and is alert. She is now on tetracycline (is that okay to also have her calcium/charcoal grit in her cage?). I was wondering if there is any nutritional product I could/should give her to help her gain some weight, also. They have always had the bagged dove feed from Petsmart--is there a healthier blend/seed I can buy on line with more nutrition and more of what they are supposed to have. Neither one would ever eat fruit or other things--both are between 12 and 15.
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.




Hi Vibrissa,


...what kind of Dove?


Anyway, any time we get an 'artichoke' Bird, best to figure something is not right...( you know, 'puffy' looking Feathers and so on, listless or dim at liesure...)


Vitamine deficiencys can lead to all sorts of odd and serious problems...and a weakened immune system...


These can eventuate from an all Seed diet ( absence of fresh Greens, mostly) and lack of direct outdoor Sunshine...and, not enough excercise ( flying ) makes matters worse.


If it was me, I would start putting them out on any Sunny day, and also encouraging an interest in fresh Greens. You can get some fresh Cilantro, pull the little Leaves off, cut them up fine with Scissors into little Dive-bite-sized bits, and put a little pile of that next to some Seeds, and have them see you eating some too, while you ham it up about "Mmmm! Oh! This "green" stuff is nice!" and so on...get them interested.

Mine will not let me eat a Sandwhich in peace without I hold out some Collard Green Leaf or other for them to tear off bits of...


Worms? Have they ever been Wormed? Or can you have some tests done for seeing if their are any indications?


"Oxine"...comes in Gallons or smaller, Mail Order...mix plain, in Water, and mist the Air...mist the air right in front of them so they must breathe it in, do it for five minutes even so they DO breathe plenty in...can really help for any upper repiratory infection...them or us or anyone...many other uses also...


If you are going to tube feed them ( or just the one ) I myself would make it rich in Goji-Berry Juice, Chlorella Powder, a big squig of 'Nutrical', and mixed with 'K-T'...

This can help start nourishing their immune system and replenishing them...and the Sunshine, too of course...


Maybe get them on the ACV-Water too, 2 Tbsps to the Gallon or a tad more...for drinking and any formula tube feed mixes...this also will help...

Thats about all I can think of...


Ambiguous presentations resulting from long accrueing dietary and environmental compromise, can be a tough matter for a Vet to notice, if only looking at the patient and not at the history.



Good luck...!


My little 'Dovezilla' gave me quite a scare awhile back...yeeeesh, puffed up, had lost lots of weight, upper repiratory stuff, off to himself sleeping all the time, breathing funny...

"Worms"...


Oye!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Vibrissa (Feb 5, 2006)

She has died--also in my hands this morning. She looked as if she didn't feel good (worse) this morning, but was still alert--just breathing faster : (. I tried to feed her (but it wasn't much--soaked and liquid organic dog food--and only a tiny drop from the dropper), she acted like she choked (I aspirated, but nothing was there) and she twisted her neck around and died. I weighed her and despite my feeding her and the antibiotics, she had lost weight from 5.1 oz to 5.0. This is not a good year for me so far, and definitely not a good week. I got Kiwi out (the male brown dove) and was going to try to give him some food and he stressed and started doing weird things with his head--I immediately quit and said, "you know what? he is on his own, I'm not killing him" But we noticed now that he has one swollen leg ???? and he has been doing this head jerk thing over and over. Otherwise he is back to "normal" whatever that is (remember they are both very old and birds from outdoors). He weighs less than Coo Coo did (4.2 oz) but has meat on his body (breast) and is eating so far on his own. He has no signs of upper resp, so I am pulling the antibiotic water out of there (what do you think), and giving him his grit back. (I have read both--do they or don't they need grit with charcoal?) And btw I do know how to feed birds as I helped my mom all my life with birds--am thankful about that--I learned a lot--not nearly what you all know, though : ) Thank you for all your help--when it is your time, though, I guess it is your time. I am tired of crying this week lol.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to read the sad news.
You had a very bad week, please don't blame yourself, you did everything you could to save this baby. Most likely she didn't aspirate, it was just her time had come.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry to see this sad news. Sending big hugs to you .. I know you are devastated about now.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vibrissa said:


> She has died--also in my hands this morning. She looked as if she didn't feel good (worse) this morning, but was still alert--just breathing faster : (. I tried to feed her (but it wasn't much--soaked and liquid organic dog food--and only a tiny drop from the dropper), she acted like she choked (I aspirated, but nothing was there) and she twisted her neck around and died. I weighed her and despite my feeding her and the antibiotics, she had lost weight from 5.1 oz to 5.0. This is not a good year for me so far, and definitely not a good week. I got Kiwi out (the male brown dove) and was going to try to give him some food and he stressed and started doing weird things with his head--I immediately quit and said, "you know what? he is on his own, I'm not killing him" But we noticed now that he has one swollen leg ???? and he has been doing this head jerk thing over and over. Otherwise he is back to "normal" whatever that is (remember they are both very old and birds from outdoors). He weighs less than Coo Coo did (4.2 oz) but has meat on his body (breast) and is eating so far on his own. He has no signs of upper resp, so I am pulling the antibiotic water out of there (what do you think), and giving him his grit back. (I have read both--do they or don't they need grit with charcoal?) And btw I do know how to feed birds as I helped my mom all my life with birds--am thankful about that--I learned a lot--not nearly what you all know, though : ) Thank you for all your help--when it is your time, though, I guess it is your time. I am tired of crying this week lol.





Hi Vibrissa,


So sorry...


Kiwi-wise, presently and from here -


What was the antibiotic?


The swollen Leg Kiwi has now, is it the whole leg? Knee? Ankle/Wrist, Hip?


Can you describe his poops? Color, consistancy?


Charcaol is sometimes used for it's ability to absorb some kinds of toxins or poisons...so, possibly Grit would be with-held when useing Charcoal since absense of Grit might make for a little less ultimately thorough 'grinding' of their Food in their Gizzards...and one would want the Charcoal to absorb, and pass through with as little subsequent reduction of it's ifnal particle size as possible...or at least that is all I can imagine with that.


Grit of course, is their means of augmeting the function of their Gizzard, where for them, their Food is masticated, or 'chewed', after it has passed through their Stomach.


Grit which contains Calcium, such as crushed Oyster Shells, or, Calcium 'enriched' Granite/Quarts or the like...or other Calcium suppliments, should be with-held when Birds are on only some kinds of Antibiotics, when the Antibiotic being used is known to become compromised in the presence of free Calcium.

It is with regard to with-holding sources of Calcium, and not the Grit as itself, otherwise, that this is observed.

Plain Granite or Quartx Gruits are not known to interfere with any Antibiotics.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Vibrissa, this is very sad news to hear, I was hoping she was on her way to getting better again. I think you being there to hold her and ease her passing was of great comfort to her.

For now I would pull the calcium grit and charcoal for Kiwi. I think it's important to make sure, although the symptoms do not sound the same, that Coo Coo and he are not sharing a common pathogen that is manifesting differently in each bird.

I think a visit to your vet would be wise to rule out any infection going on. 

Please keep us updated,

Ron


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