# Male pigeon pooping yellow poop, like an egg yolk, after pairing with another male



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please, see this topic, tell me what is happening

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/two-of-my-male-pigeons-paired-47287.html


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

need a picture of the droppings.... how is the bird acting?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't have any pictures at the moment. The droppings are egg yolk, I smelled them, and they were yellow in colour. 

What is happening?? I suppose that "he" is a "she". 

She is not very active, I have to say, kind of sleepy.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> I don't have any pictures at the moment. The droppings are egg yolk, I smelled them, and they were yellow in colour.
> 
> What is happening?? I suppose that "he" is a "she".
> 
> She is not very active, I have to say, kind of sleepy.


can you get her to the vet asap, she could die from this....


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I called the only avian vet we have here in Serbia, she said I should just monitor her and that she didn't even make a shell for the egg. Now she won't pick up a phone!!!! I don't know where can I take her, because here vets don't know anything about the birds. 

She throws up when I give her anything that tastes bad, so injectable antibiotics are the only solution. Which one can a vet give her and what is the correct dose??
For example, what is the correct dose for Baytril and where should she get the injection?????


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

We recently had a bird do the same thing in another thread, yolk like droppings, I tried looking for the thread, but could not find it. I have been dealing with a fair number of birds lately and can't remember all the details, maybe someone else will. If I remember right, Baytril nd Metronidazole cleared things up. The IM (injectable dose for Baytril) is the pretty much the same as oral, 20mg/kg IM, but diffrent for Metronidazole injectable, 10-20mg/kg IM q12-24h.

Karyn


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

eternal said:


> I called the only avian vet we have here in Serbia, she said I should just monitor her and that she didn't even make a shell for the egg. Now she won't pick up a phone!!!! I don't know where can I take her, because here vets don't know anything about the birds.
> 
> She throws up when I give her anything that tastes bad, so injectable antibiotics are the only solution. Which one can a vet give her and what is the correct dose??
> For example, what is the correct dose for Baytril and where should she get the injection?????


Dissolve the anti biotic in water and use a filler to feed it at the back of the throat of the pigeon. After administrating the same, hold the pigeon calmly with both hands and support against your chest with the neck not in a downward position. Pigeons usually do not vomit with such a procedure. The administrating quantity should not be more than 1 - 2ml


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So, I should take her for Metronidazole and Baytril injections, right??
Both are IM??

And what is causing egg yolk like droppings?? Is it really egg yolk or what????? She/He had normal droppings, but now they are really terrible.

Please help!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Egg yolk droppings (if its egg yolk) are related to egg binding in pigeons and happens in the female pigeon, so your "he" might be a "she". There are couple of theories/reasons for this, the main being calcium deficiency or inadequate vitamin D3 to absorb calcium (Vitamin D3 is produced with the aid of sunlight/ Vit D3 supplements), another is some infection that can happen in the vent tract or something, I am not sure what it was.

Egg binding is the inability to pass a developed or incomplete egg and requires avian attention. Antibiotics are to reduce the infections which might have caused the egg binding or which may arise after egg binding.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So do you think she has a shell inside or do you think she was unable to produce one??

Is it normal that she is very calm now and not eating??

And it's definitely egg yolk, same smell and everything.

Now the poop is green, really green


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, this bird really does sound like she is beyond the help you can give her. She needs to be evaluated by a vet, I know the issues you have with avian vet help, but a caring vet, even without any/much avian experience will be able to do things for this bird you simply can't, moreover, don't have the equipment to do. The antibiotics will definitely help, but she may need to be internally cleansed before starting them.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I told him about cleansing the cloaca and everything, he said there is no need for that, and he didn't do it. He only gave her injection of calcium and told me to give her Baytril. She still haven't eaten, she only drank. 

What should I do?? take her to some other vet???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, really going to have to have a look at her droppings. This bird should be both Baytril and Metronidazole. What is her weight, any other illness or complicating factors going on, is her crop emptying of what she drinks, what are your other options in terms of vets. Do not feed anything just yet.

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> I told him about cleansing the cloaca and everything, he said there is no need for that, and he didn't do it. He only gave her injection of calcium and told me to give her Baytril. She still haven't eaten, she only drank.
> 
> What should I do?? take her to some other vet???


so she has been to a vet?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

yes, he only gave her calcium. poop is terrible, only water and it's green. 

now she threw up baytril. We're going to another vet to get Baytril IM, should she get metronidazole IM too???


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

eternal said:


> So do you think she has a shell inside or do you think she was unable to produce one??
> 
> Is it normal that she is very calm now and not eating??
> 
> ...


That can be confirmed by an x-ray but it is also possible that shell was not formed. Since you had blood along with the poops, there should be an infection which I believe can recovered with the right medicines.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> That can be confirmed by an x-ray but it is also possible that shell was not formed. Since you had blood along with the poops, there should be an infection which I believe can recovered with the right medicines.


Which one??? Baytril or another antibiotic??? Ampicilin or something else??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> yes, he only gave her calcium. poop is terrible, only water and it's green.
> 
> now she threw up baytril. We're going to another vet to get Baytril IM, should she get metronidazole IM too???


I would get the Metronidazole as well, be careful, as I mentioned earlier the parenteral dosage is different than oral, 10-20mg/kg IM q12-24h. Also a shot of Metocloprimide may help settle things down with her GI (0.30mg/kg IM). I would also get him to preload a few syringes of both antibiotics (Baytril + Metronidazole) to take home, so you can have her on injectables for three days, then back to oral. Go with the Baytril. If you can manage to get an x-ray while there, I would do that as well.

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

follow your vets advice... if you don't remember what that is call him/her back.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

eternal said:


> Which one??? Baytril or another antibiotic??? Ampicilin or something else??


Man, sorry but I am not that good when it comes to medicines 

You can explain the things to the doctor, he/she would sure know the medicines, also the local available ones. We had many cases of egg binding here on PT along with bleeding so our friends know about it. Once you are through with the doctor get the medicine and let us know the results.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Omg, the vet gave him baytril in the leg, now his leg is paralazyed, how could this happen??? she said it's only temporary.

she cleaned the cloaca and extract egg yolk, there is no egg in the cloaca, no shell.

what will happen to his leg??????


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now his leg is paralyzed from the injection, I read somewhere it's nerve damage, I can't stop crying, I love this pigeon so much!!!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Pigeon react spontaneously and heavily to pain on legs, if the doctor said it is only temporary, that might be it. Wait for sometime. Somebody here should be able to tell you if they have witnessed similar condition with their birds which were injected. At least she is not egg bound now so there is good news.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Now his legs is paralyzed from the injection, I read somewhere it's nerve damage, I can't stop crying, I love this pigeon so much!!!


Eternal, why did your vet do this , it should have been given into the breast muscle, I see what you mean by they really don't know much about birds. Hopefully he did not damage any nerves, just massage the leg a number of times over the next few days to help, move the leg up and down as well, that's about all that can be done right now. Did he send you home with any preloaded syringes. In the future any IM shots should be given to the breast, find the keel bone, find it's base move to the left or right 1/2", come back up 1", apply a bit of alcohol and inject into the muscle, not straight down, but in on an angle. Alternate left to right of the keel bone if giving injections over a few days and move up slightly from the last injection site, when giving another injection on the same side.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,



How old is this Pigeon?


If this appears to be 'yolk' which they were releasing, was there also a lot of clear Albumen?


Images would have really helped.


Lastly, all these incidents of digestive shut downs, throwing up, and so on have a similar ring.


One poorly calculated injection into a Thigh or 'Leg' would not paralize both Legs...though an infection effecting the Kidneys, could.



Images?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can't even write, it's only the leg where he was given the injection, what if it's really paralyzed. I shouldn't have taken her for that stupid injection, but how should I know??

I'm now hoping she didn't damage anything when she put her finger in cloaca, she said that the egg is larger than her finger. 

Her leg is now paralazyed, she is not well, I gave her ringer solution sub q because she threw up everything she had after I gave her Baytril by mouth. 

What now????


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeon is only 7 moths old.

I saw only egg yolk, but maybe there was also albumen, but not much. She is now cleaned completely.

she is sleeping, she is lethargic


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Olive Oil gently worked into the Vent, and, warm sits-Baths may help if there is an Egg which has broken and or a second Egg behind it.


Careful and well located injections of female Hormones can also help...as can supplimental and easily assimilable forms of Calcium.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, I'm giving her calcium, water soluble for birds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I can't even write, it's only the leg where he was given the injection, what if it's really paralyzed. I shouldn't have taken her for that stupid injection, but how should I know??


Eternal, you did nothing wrong at all and you're not supposed to know, the vet is supposed to KNOW. Baytril can be irritating, so between that and possible injury from the needle itself, it may be a number of days before we can really gage things. I know you don't want to here about injections, but a one time injection of Dexamethasone (2mg/kg, IM, breast muscle) may really help with the leg and improve the chances of a complete recovery, by dampening down irritation and swelling inside the leg. Got to run, but massage, Sub-Q fluids (do not exceed 18-20mL q24h), give a bit of hydration fluid later with some Metocloprimide, then later again, if things are moving from the crop and droppings are being made, 7cc of thin Kaytee for now.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, should I wait till morning for dexamethasone, or take her to another vet now???

Is it normal that she is sleepy now???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I would go now, it's most effect for what we want it to do, the sooner we can get it into the bird, closer to the time of trauma, the better. She's weak and been through a lot, normal, I think.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Omg, now I found that calicum should not be given with fluoroquinolone antibiotics, why???

And he today got calcium and enrofloxacin, but a couple of hours apart??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


Is their Crop passing Liquids and solids?

What is there for poops? Urates?



Supplimental warmth may help her possible Egg Binding issue...Heating Pad..


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Omg, now I found that calicum should not be given with fluoroquinolone antibiotics, why???
> 
> And he today got calcium and enrofloxacin, but a couple of hours apart??


Calcium in the gut can interfere with the uptake of some antibiotics through the walls of the digestive tract, never heard anything about the two things given as separate shots...

For the record, though, Enrofloxacin (Baytril) does cause necrosis at the site of the shot when given IM which later scars. Where possible, you'd rather not give it that way.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Calcium in the gut can interfere with the uptake of some antibiotics through the walls of the digestive tract, never heard anything about the two things given as separate shots...
> 
> For the record, though, Enrofloxacin (Baytril) does cause necrosis at the site of the shot when given IM which later scars. Where possible, you'd rather not give it that way.
> 
> Pidgey


Necrosis????

So you think this paralysis is permanent??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He got dexamethasone, his legs is really swollen, but he started to moving it before we went to see the vet. 

Still very calm, not active and sleepy.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, I actually had an appointment with my vet today myself. When I told him that your vet injected Baytril into the leg of your bird, he couldn't believe a vet would do that. When I asked what the consequences could be, he said a real concern is kidney failure. He explained to me that birds are quite different than mammals, where they have a renal portal system where their blood goes through the kidneys first and then is transported to the rest of the body, including the heart. Where with mammals, blood flows to the heart and then to the rest of the body, including the kidneys. Because the leg is vascular and does not have a lot of muscle mass, too much Baytril, too soon can get into the blood causing kidney damage.

I told him I suggested to you that you get a shot of Dexamethasone to reduce inflammation and swelling in the leg and he said he hoped you took the bird in and did so (I see that you did ), he said not only for the leg, but because the Dexamethasone would be renal protective to some extent and may help protect the kidneys. He said he was not too concerned about the leg, he thought any damage would not be too extensive, the Dexamethasone will help things with it, but his main concern was for the kidneys.

I told him I gave you correct instructions on how to do IM injections on birds and he said you should print it and take it for your vet. All kidding aside, you maybe should give your vet instructions on proper IM injection procedures for birds, so this does not ever happen to someone else's bird.

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Omg, now renal failure??? 

Now I'm really desperate!!! What now??? What if this really damaged his kidneys??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Maybe he would be ok if I hadn't taken him to the vet??

How soon will I know if there is kidney damage?? I stopped being an optimist, plus every bird I took to this vet eventually died, I suppose it's not her fault, I'm maybe a little superstitious here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Omg, now renal failure???
> 
> Now I'm really desperate!!! What now??? What if this really damaged his kidneys??


He said, concern, not a certainty, and you took your bird in for the Dexamethasone which was a very good thing to do. Your bird is on Sub-Q fluids as well, very good for keeping the kidneys flushed, let's see how things go for this little guy over the next few days.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

And she should get dexamethasone only once??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Good question, yes, only once (will remain in your bird's sytem for a few days). Dexamethasone is quite a powerful corticosteroid anti -inflammatory and has to be used very judiciously in birds, as it will suppress their immune system with use. Doing a one time shot to fight severe inflammation or fight toxicity (it is good in instances of septicemia as well) is generally not a problem and can be life saving at times.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now I'm really scared for her kidneys, there is so much water in her poop. The poop is green, really green, with a lot of water. Urates were white, now they are clear.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

What is the diet now ?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

10ml of the formula, but very thin. and sub q liquids. He poops now quite often and there are no urates, only urin and green feces.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

How is she otherwise ? Does the leg seem to be better than yesterday ? Is she eating and drinking herself ? or is she just lying there as after the injection ?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The leg is the same, I can see it's hurting her. 
She is drinking by herself, and I think she even ate a couple of seeds, not much. 

She is still calm, sleepy, right now she is on the heater, she came there on her own. I gave her another 10cc of the formula. 

I really, really hope that the kidneys aren't damaged!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The poop looks better, less water. Now the feces are light green and there are urates (white) and urin (clear).
Our only avian vet told me to put her on ampicillin, 3 times a day, and I did. I mixed the syrup in the formula and gave her almost 4 hours ago, and now I can smell it in the poop, so she is digesting fine. Still no appetite, the leg is still hurting her, she is preening now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, don't worry too much about the droppings right now, with the Sub-Q fluids and if you have been tubing her they will look a bit of a mess for a while. I would add in Metronidazole as well as the Ampicillan and we need to give the leg some time, it was just yesterday it was injured, preening sounds good.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I would also like to give her metronidizaole, but I'm afraid she is gonna throw up.

Now my other two pigeons look suspicious too, they were on the balcony, it's really nice there, and they haven't eaten all day, and now I put them with Skvichak (it's his/her name, equivalent to Squeak), she is with me in the dining room, and they are eating like crazy, Bebi is cooing non stop. Why is that?? Is it really possible that these are the hormones??? I actually don't believe in such diagnoses.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

They are very social creatures, plus when they see other birds, they may start to eat to make sure they get some of whatever is on offer, as in the wild food does not stay around too long.

Eternal, Phil and I were discussing your bird(s) a bit through PM and he thought, and I fully agreed, that because of the amount of birds that seem to have/develop similar symptoms at your place, that we think it may be a very good idea to run a disinfection program on everything there.

This means that you would make up a 1:9 bleach solution (1 part bleach to 9 parts water) in a large bucket and and drop anything that comes in contact with you birds into it. This means feeding tubes, syringes, dishes, perches and so on....everything. Then anything that can't fit into the bucket, use the solution in the bucket to wipe everything else, cages, stands, perches and so on. Rinse everything from the bucket well with water to make sure all the bleach solution in removed and the same for the cages and other things you wiped with bleach, now wipe with clean, warm water.

Any towels and other cloth items should go though a good laundry cleaning, towels on pre-soak with bleach before start the wash cycle.

Best to do this to rule out chances that something continues to cycle at your place from an earlier bird, could all be just a coincidence, but best safe.

Karyn

PS: Be careful with the bleach as it off gases, release fumes into the air, so you will have to juggle things a bit with their location so they do not breath in any of the Chlorine gas, keep them away from any areas you used it for 1 hour.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The problem is that I'm already disinfecting everything, I mean everything, with maybe 3 types of disinfectants. 

All their dishes I put in the oven on the highest temperature for 1 hour, I only give them bottle water, I wash all their cloths on 95 degrees Celsius, so I would say it's nearly impossible for them to pick something in the apartment, and I even don't walk in the shoes in the apratment, I take them off when I enter the apratment.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, sounds like you are on top of things. I would pay special attention to any feeding implements, tubes, syringes, as well as dishes, if you are not using bleach on these please do, a 1:9 bleach solution will kill everything (just a reminder, to never use the same feeding tube/syringe on another bird without disinfecting, even a very good washing is not enough).

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

These are the disinfectants I use:
1. Domestos - with 4,8 g of Sodium Hypochlorite in 100 g
2.Parafectans (Chevita) - the only thing that kills larvae and protozoan oocysts 
3.Galisept -another disinfectant on chlorine basis 
4. Aseptan - benzalconium chloride

So, if I use Domestos, how should I prepare the solution for disinfection??


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

For Domestos, the same concentration as advised for regular floor flushing should work, but it is highly toxic. If it gets into your pigeons body it will sure cause trouble so use with care.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I had a look, and Domestos is a household bleach and I confirmed the numbers you gave that it has a 4.8% Sodium Hypochlorite concentration, in contrast, Clorox, a household bleach found over here, typically has a 5.25% concentration of Sodium Hypochlorite. The difference in concentration from household bleaches found here is not going to make a big difference, make it up at the same 1:9 mix (1 part bleach 9 parts water). Just be sure to heed the cautions mentioned for off gassing for it if you are using it for more that a soak for tools and are using it to wipe down/clean everything. Also, I noticed in your photo the type you have is Pine scented and my preference would be for you to use unscented Domestos bleach around/for your birds.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I just use a heavy lidded plastic 5 Gallon Bucket about 3/4rs full of 'Bleach Water' for sterilizing Food and Water Cups or other things as may be.

I scrub/wash first in Soap and Water with a 3M 'Sponge', then Soak in the Bleach solution, then wash in plain Water and dry.


Cages can be scrubbed out well, pressure washed with one's Garden Hose, and left in the Sun for a few days to sterilize.


White Paper Towels for Cage Bottom, if possiby with a small folded Cloth Towel under them for more comfort.


Paper Towels get changed daily...base Towel, Laundered at close of cage-time or discarded.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Her leg still hurts her, and she doesn't have much appetite, why?? It's been 3 days since she's on antibiotics. I would really like to start with chloramphenicol, but it's so bitter, she's going to throw up I'm sure.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

What if this is permanent nerve damage to her leg???


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> What if this is permanent nerve damage to her leg???


Eternal, between the injury from the needle and the irritation from the Baytril, it may take a few weeks for the leg to get back to normal, take a deep breath.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

she is not eating, which is very bad sign, which leads me to believe she has some serious infection, maybe even salmonella. She is going to throw up after both Baytril and chloramphenicol, but I'm going to try to mix it with the formula, there is no other way.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Or maybe I can get cirpofloxacin in tablet form of 500mg and give him a little


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him enrofloxacin with the formula, it's been almost 2 hours and he hasn't vomited yet. 
I think he has some serious infection, could this be salmonella?? His poop is very green, and he was definitely better after the Baytril injection, but after that I put him on Ampicillin as prof. Resanovic, our avian vet, told me and stopped Baytril. Did the bacteria now become resistant??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I called this avian vet, when I told her about the leg, she told me that the nerve was probably hit, omg! Will she recover??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> I gave him enrofloxacin with the formula, it's been almost 2 hours and he hasn't vomited yet.
> I think he has some serious infection, could this be salmonella?? His poop is very green, and he was definitely better after the Baytril injection, but after that I put him on Ampicillin as prof. Resanovic, our avian vet, told me and stopped Baytril. Did the bacteria now become resistant??


Ampicillin is an old line antibiotic and was a predecessor of Amoxicillin. An issue with some older antibiotics is that bacteria have developed resistance to them over the years, thats why newer drugs have come into use. When vets prescribe Ampicillin it is usually a result of having culture and sensitivity tests done, were the bacteria is identified and shows as being sensitive to Ampicillin . I have never had a vet prescribe Ampicillin as a "shotgun" antibiotic, a broad spectrum antibiotic that is used, as many bacteria are sensitive to it, when there is no time to run tests or he has had a good idea of the nature of infection. So although Ampicillin can be effective in certain situations, it really is not a first choice drug in unidentified infections. The vet may have an insight, but my thinking is the bird would be better off right now on the Baytril.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, thank you.
Now, have the bacteria now developed resistance because he only got Baytril once?? And what about the nerve damage to his leg??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Ok, thank you.
> Now, have the bacteria now developed resistance because he only got Baytril once?? And what about the nerve damage to his leg??


The bacteria should still be sensitive to the Baytril, and my vet seemed confident, in time, the leg should return to normal.

Karyn


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I've been looking through this thread and I am very mad at the vet for paralyzing your poor bird.
I'm also trying to figure out what the antibiotics are for. I know, of course, that she is egg bound, but all that takes is calcium. You said she throws up, so I'm assuming this is all to treat canker?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm giving her now Baytril and ampicillin. she is throwing up only when I give her some bitter antibiotic, she can't stand bitter taste of anything. 

Is the ciprofloxacin and enrofloxacin the same thing when given to birds?

I gave him Baytril with the formula, is it going to be effective?? It has calcium in it! But if I give him on empty stomach, he is going to vomit everything!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Also, I gave him today Metronidazole. 
His leg is not paralyzed completely as it was after the injection, he now moves her, streches her, but he can't stand on it. I really hope this isn't nothing permanent.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

My birds have never thrown up because of taking medication. Does she/he ever throw up any other time? It sounds like she could have some crop stasis, which would explain not eating much and the vomiting.

I am just wondering what the antibiotics are for.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He only throws up after the medications that are bitter. 

He obviously has some infection, salmonellosis or something like that, and I suppose that was the reason why she had problems in the reprodactive area. 

I only hope that baytril is going to work when given together with the formula because this is the only way I can give it to him.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Now I gave him Baytril together with ampicillin, so I'm going to monitor him and let you know if he throws up.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He wants to throw up so I took him in my hands.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, he hasn't vomited yet, but now I really hope that Baytril works for this infection and that the bacteria hasn't become resistant because he only got Baytril once and then nothing for 2 days


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

This morning he started to vomit, he vomited everything he had in his crop. It was because of Baytril. Still not eating, I really hope that Baytril will start to work. If not, I would have to switch to Chloramphenicol, which is really really bitter, even when mixed with food, and it's bacteriostat, and because he received dexamethasone, this is terrible.

How long till I see if Baytril works???


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Does she vomit when you dilute it in water and feed in portions ? You can increase the water content for reducing the concentration


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I had to start him on Chloraphenicol. Let's hope that he doesn't throw up. I mixed it in the formula, Chloramphenicol can be mixed with food.

Dobato, you said 100mg per kg, 2 times per day, but I've found somewhere that the dosage of 75-100mg per kg 2-4 times daily.

And will Chloramphenicol work now that he had a dexamethasone shot?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He has necrosis on his leg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What now??????

Should he get surgery or what??????

Please help me, please help


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> He has necrosis on his leg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> What now??????
> 
> ...


Picture?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

http://yfrog.com/b9290920101738j


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please, what now??? is he going to lose his leg????


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Please, tell me what to do??? Is there anything that can be done?????? 

Does he need surgery?? 

I took him to the vet, he said that nothing can be done at the moment, that the body will make line of demarcation, and that I should only keep it clean to prevent infection, that the body has already decided what to throw as necrotic tissue and that there is nothing I can do?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I thought the Bird was brought to a Vet and received a procedure and closure and Setting/Splinting for the open Leg wound?


Has there been no actual address of the Legs?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

This is antoher bird


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> This is antoher bird


Sorry, I'm at work. Anyhow, that doesn't look THAT bad in the picture yet--give it some time. Just out of curiosity... if you keep taking the bird to the vet and that's where bad things happen... then why run to the vet every chance you get?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Different vet. It's not the same vet, not the one who gave him Baytril in the leg.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Different vet. It's not the same vet, not the one who gave him Baytril in the leg.


Here, go read this one and look at the pictures:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

I could go find others but that one oughta' do...

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

What about this??

I would really like that it's the same thing, but this isn't necrosis caused by infection, Baytril caused it, I suppose that the muscle is dying and who knows what will happen to all the leg tissue because of Baytril!!! He could lose the leg!!!
It's been what, almost a week since he got the injection, and look the extent of the damage!!! There is little more bellow this big one, it's hidden in the feathers


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> What about this??
> 
> I would really like that it's the same thing, but this isn't necrosis caused by infection, Baytril caused it, I suppose that the muscle is dying and who knows what will happen to all the leg tissue because of Baytril!!! He could lose the leg!!!
> It's been what, almost a week since he got the injection, and look the extent of the damage!!! There is little more bellow this big one, it's hidden in the feathers


Is there a truly horrible odor that smells of dead animal permeating your entire house from this?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

No, but I'm not sure if it smells or not, because I can smell alcohol (because of sub q ringer's solution he got in that leg) mixed with something, don't know with what


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> No, but I'm not sure if it smells or not, because I can smell alcohol (because of sub q ringer's solution he got in that leg) mixed with something, don't know with what


Does it look like a scab? Feel like a scab? Nothing sloughing off?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here, go look at this one and tell me if you see anything there that would have you bouncing off the walls in fear and worry:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508677&postcount=52

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

His whole leg is turning yellow, I can see a part of the muscle mising. 
The vet said that the process of necrosis last for a month, it's been only 6 days and look what is happening and there is no way to stop it because it isn't infection.

http://img405.imageshack.us/g/290920101739.jpg/


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eternal,


If you had seperate Threads for each Bird, it might be easier for some of us ( me for example ) to somehow manage to keep track of which is which.

Otherwise, I am lost on trying to figure out which Bird is which, or what their histories are.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi eternal,
> 
> 
> If you had seperate Threads for each Bird, it might be easier for some of us ( me for example ) to somehow manage to keep track of which is which.
> ...


Actually, Phil, it's hard to keep it straight at the moment because there are things going on with both birds' legs. I had the same problem, but realized that there ARE two different threads and each bird's problem described where it should be--they just happen to be extremely similar at the moment. Weird, huh?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> His whole leg is turning yellow, I can see a part of the muscle mising.
> The vet said that the process of necrosis last for a month, it's been only 6 days and look what is happening and there is no way to stop it because it isn't infection.
> 
> http://img405.imageshack.us/g/290920101739.jpg/


Yes, that doesn't surprise me--it was one of the possibilities that I thought could happen leading me to my original post about Baytril injections causing necrosis. One of the things that I was trying to get across earlier was that we can't do anything about it--what will be, will be. It IS possible for a one-legged bird to function, so we'll expect the worst and hope for the best. Seriously, if there was something that I could think of to do, I'd suggest it. About the only thing that I can think of would be to try and protect that area from a bacterial infection by way of oral Metronidazole.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can't believe he's going to lose his leg because of an injection!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can describe how I feel right now. This is my pet pigeon, I love him so so much


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> I can't believe he's going to lose his leg because of an injection!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I can describe how I feel right now. This is my pet pigeon, I love him so so much


Well, try not believing it until you see it, okay? It can go either way. However, even if he did, it'd like be below the actual knee. That said, you could easily fashion a prosthetic with which he'd get around just fine. The questions of when to use a vet and which should be avoided has always been difficult. For those of us heavily into rehabbing... well... let's just say we've all got "war stories", many of which turned out far worse.

I know, that doesn't seem very empathetic, but I'm only trying to tell you not to worry TOO much until the reality is right there in your lap.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

It's not like below the knee, it's actually the whole leg, can you see it in the pictures? It's the whole leg.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> It's not like below the knee, it's actually the whole leg, can you see it in the pictures? It's the whole leg.


I see the yellow but, frankly, I've seen it that widespread a million times with infections and injuries. The scabby-looking spot on the leg is the one that I'm referring to, and that IS below the actual knee--it's midshaft tibiotarsus. Those particular muscles are for articulation of the phalanges (toes). If those muscles are too badly scarred as a result, the toes will be affected but the function of the leg won't suffer much. Articulation of the tibiotarsus is actually performed in the muscles surrounding the femur up above.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes, you are right. He can't move his toes at all!!!
How long till I see the outcome?? How much does this hurt him now?? And will he be in pain his whole life??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> Yes, you are right. He can't move his toes at all!!!
> How long till I see the outcome?? How much does this hurt him now?? And will he be in pain his whole life??


Pain? Not as much as we feel with similar damage because they don't begin to have as many pain channels as we do. That's actually sometimes a problem because they can further damage an injury due to not utilizing "guarding behavior" since they can't feel the pain as much. Right now, I don't imagine that he can feel much at all.

How long? Oh, I'd expect we'll have a good idea what it's going to do within the week.

Okay, I gotta' pack up and head out of here for the day.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He can have this surgically removed?? Can necrosis be stopped that way??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> He can have this surgically removed?? Can necrosis be stopped that way??


No, don't mess with it at this point and doggone sure don't have one of your vets do it, either. Necrosis isn't particularly like "flesh-eating bacteria" or gangrene, either one. Just wait and see--might surprise you. Go ahead and post daily pictures.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

His whole leg is becoming necrotic, even the part that is near the body.
http://yfrog.com/ne300920101751j

Where is the muscle that controls the leg?? Because he can't stand on his leg at all.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just because there's a buildup of inflammatory debris doesn't mean that the whole thing's dying at this point. I don't see that in the pictures yet, so let's wait and see.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are, by the way, a bunch of muscles around the hip and leg for doing various articulations. Think of one of your own legs to help visualize that--your thigh gets a lot of its movements from muscles in your buttocks, so they're connections between the pelvis and the femur. So far in your pictures, I haven't seen anything whatsoever to indicate that those have been affected in this bird at all--I'm seeing mostly problems in what would be analogous to the calf muscles in our legs between our knees and our ankles. Take more pictures.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He's been on Chloramphenicol for 48h, still hasn't started to eat. His poop is really green although he is on the formula.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Their poop is almost always green due to the bile, which is used to break down fats. It's sometimes dark green enough to look black, but if you smear it out on white paper, it's still green. Anyhow, do you have a way to know how many Calories you're giving him per day?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't know about calories, why do you ask??

He's definitely not getting better, I tried Ampicillin, Enrofloxacin and now Chloramphenicol, and still no improvement.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you have any other antibiotics? How about wormers, by the way--got any of those?

Every animal requires a certain amount of Calories per day. We can calculate it for pigeons although you obviously shouldn't give them food if it's not going through. If that's the case, though, then oral medications generally won't go in, either. For a next step, I'd probably try a Trimethoprim/Sulfa (with trade names like Bactrim).

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I have Doxy + Tylosin, Lyncomicn + Spectinomycin, Bactrim, Ampicillin, Amoxicillin, Enrofloxacin, and that's about everything. 

I have Fendbendazole, but I can get Ivermectin (proved ineffective, don't know why) and Levamisole too.

I'm really going crazy, so many sick pigeons!!! 

Other pigeons are throwing up Chloramphenicol even when I mixed it with the formula!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Go with the Bactrim. Do you know the proper dosing?

(Might take a couple of weeks to start seeing improvement, by the way)

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, I gave Bactrim to other two pigeons, but I'm not sure if it's going to work, pigeon with broken legs and Gallina (I released her few days ago) were on Bactrim and it didn't work, and I can't take droppings for analysis before Monday


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

PM me your email address and I'll send you a formulary file.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Pidgey said:


> Go with the Bactrim. Do you know the proper dosing?
> 
> (Might take a couple of weeks to start seeing improvement, by the way)
> 
> Pidgey


Few weeks??

Gallina and pigeon with broken legs were on Chloramphenicol for a day and started to eat. Gallina even had neurological symptoms of salmonella. That's why I'm worried. Also, I have another pigeon, he was very sick when I found him 10 days ago, he was also better after only one day.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, well, it doesn't always work that way--I've had more than one with oviduct infections that didn't respond to a Baytril/Metronidazole combo for two weeks and then I switched them to Bactrim and they finally started coming around. These things happen. Also, if they've got coccidiosis, only the Bactrim will work of the ones that you mentioned.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

But when the antibiotic is right, it should star to work with 48 hours. I think he is getting worse.


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## Nictorious Ali (Jul 1, 2010)

Antibiotics take time to work 48 hrs is too short of a period


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> But when the antibiotic is right, it should star to work with 48 hours. I think he is getting worse.


Not necessarily. For instance, imagine a bird that is suffering a systemic infection that includes hemolysis (destruction of the red blood cells--the ones carrying the oxygen to the body cells) resulting in a "hemolytic anemia". So... we start the right antibiotic and stop the hemolysis within a couple of days BUT... the bird STILL has to take several days to replenish the red blood cell count. In cases like that, you will see a highly elevated respiration rate that you HOPE the bird has the physical reserves to make it through before it literally runs out of energy and dies. You can't actually feed them much through the worst of that therapy because they simply don't have the extra energy to digest much food (yes, it takes quite a bit of energy to digest food and you can kill a sick bird by feeding it too much).

I cannot count the times that it's taken a month or three to get one back from being VERY sick, especially when they've become emaciated. Worms are often a problem in these cases, by the way.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm really worried. His leg is starting to turn violet, and not only the leg with necrosis, but also the healthy leg. Is that purple color normal?? 

This is the picture of the healthy leg: http://img137.imageshack.us/f/011020101752.jpg/

This is the picture of necrotic leg: http://img339.imageshack.us/f/011020101757.jpg/


Here are other pictures of the leg, his whole muscle is necrotic and he can't move his toes. 

http://img137.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=011020101752.jpg


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

eternal said:


> I'm really worried. His leg is starting to turn violet, and not only the leg with necrosis, but also the healthy leg. Is that purple color normal??
> 
> This is the picture of the healthy leg: http://img137.imageshack.us/f/011020101752.jpg/
> 
> ...


I looked--nothing looks particularly bad to me except the scab--it has an ugly color. I'd probably pick it off at the edges and see if it comes loose. Then, I'd probably dress it with an antibiotic ointment.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I picked it off at the edges as you had suggested me, and I was able to remove a part. 
Now it looks like this (I removed a part on the right): http://img228.imageshack.us/f/021020101764.jpg/

It still look really really bad!!! It has the same color as the scab, so the process of necrosis isn't done, and I'm afraid where and when it's going to end!

I suppose he's never going to be able to move the fingers, but he can't even stand on it


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

eternal, 


It is a wound of sorts...just leave it be and let it have a week or two to heal.

If you like, keep it moist with light applications of topical antibiotic Ointment...and leave it alone otherwise.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

If he can't move his toes now, I suppose he wont't be able to move them in the future either?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Impossible to say, you're just going to have to wait for a month or so to find out.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, it looks fairly localized to me at this point--I'm not currently worried about the leg rotting off or anything like that. That said, he's going to have a leg. How usable it will be is anybody's guess, but they usually surprise you in pleasant ways.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For those of you who followed this thread in the past, I just received good news: the leg resolved and the bird has been using the leg again these last few days. There's a slight limp at this point, but not much of one.



Pidgey


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Pidgey said:


> For those of you who followed this thread in the past, I just received good news: the leg resolved and the bird has been using the leg again these last few days. There's a slight limp at this point, but not much of one.
> 
> 
> 
> Pidgey


Thats really good news  and I am so happy that eternal with his good heart helped the bird all along


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, to tell you the truth, I still can't believe that vet injected the Baytril into this poor birds leg, I almost popped my top when Eternal posted this news, as I knew it was going to be bad. I am glad with time and care this bird is making its way back. Thanks for the update.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Woo-Hoo!


Very glad to hear...


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you all for your help and support.

The leg healed completely, she's been using her leg normally, even the limp was gone, and today she somehow *broke her foot or one toe*. It's swollen, I put on ice. One toe is hanging, I'm not sure about her the foot, so is it enough to put a splint and how do I make one???? I really can't believe this is happening, and now after all we've been thorugh and after she finally started to walk normally and even stand on that foot!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, let's have a picture and see what's going on. Is she standing on the foot?

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

She can't. I think it hurts her.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm holding her in the pictures
http://img168.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=131120101802.jpg

It's her left leg. I really don't want to take her to operation. Is the splint going to be enough and how should I make it?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nah, that don't look like nothin' to worry about, at least not for the moment. Just let let her lounge around on a fluffed towel for a few days.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

And what about the splint? She maybe really broke her foot???


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

She just limped a little on that leg.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Middle finger is definitely broken.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And it will heal in fairly short order. She probably caught it in something and then twisted it.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

so I should just leave it like this and wait? maybe some extra calcium? you don't thing that the whole foot is broken?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not enough of it to worry overmuch with. Trust me, she's not going to worry with it as much as you'd think. Imagine if you broke your own finger... the stuff you do to patch it up is mostly to keep you from bumping it again--there's usually no particular reason to splint it unless it's pointing crookedly. That is, it WILL heal anyhow but usually it'll hurt less if you secure it. Sometimes, pain is an effective behavioral management technique though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The hard part of rehabbing is knowing when NOT to go overboard...

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I have another rescued pigeon, he had crop statis, but it's another story, and he also had broken foot and the fingers were even pointed crookedly. Here are the pictures. He didn't have a splint and in the end the fracture just healed on itself and the finger went back to normal.

http://img530.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=12062010918.jpg


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, these things happen. Your next post will be your 400th, by the way.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I have bad news and good news.

First the bad news. My pigeons are sick again and it's salmonella, same sympthoms, green poop, not olive green, but really really green, and I finally know how they got sick. On my balcony, which is closed-type and not finished, I'm renovating it, I found mice!!! I don't have tiles a the moment, I had the old ones removed and I've been waiting for the new ones, and I saw mice on day eating their seeds. I noticed that there was a very small in the wall, in the concrete. And that's how they managed to get in. I suppose they smelled seeds (food). 

They are on chloramphenicol now and it's been working thank god!!! They are all in the apratment now, I closed the door of the balcony and I closed that hole. But I have to be sure that mice aren't able to get in, I saw them walking up wall!!!!

4 of out 5 pigeons are sick. Should I give antibiotic to the one that isn't sick???

As to leg, leg is healing even without a splint, there is still some swelling, but I suppose it's going to be ok. 

I first noticed that something was wrong when I saw her poop, which was yellow green, but they were all eating at the moment. I immediately put them on thiamphenicol, which is less dangerous than chloramphenicol, but as it turns out also less effective. I saw no improvement in 4-5 days. In the meantime, other pigeons started to have green poop, which is never a good sign, trust me. Then I started them on Chloraphenicol, and now it's been 6 days since I'm giving it to them. I'm going to give it to them till the end of the month, just in case. I ordered some new disinfectant, it's stabilized ozone, very effective and completely nontoxic.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure would be nice if you could get some Sal-Bac for your birds, I just don't know if you could get it in Serbia.

Pidgey


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

eternal said:


> I closed that hole. But I have to be sure that mice aren't able to get in, I saw them walking up wall!!!!


How did you close the hole ?
If you only blocked it up with cement or plaster, they will chew & gnaw through it again through time. They have a route in from somewhere on the other side and will try again.
Dont know if you can get expanding polyurathane foam in your area, I would imagine most DIY stores would stock similar.
((This is the sort of stuff I mean here)
First, remove whatever you have plugged the hole with. 
Second Break a glass jar or bottle into small pieces which are small enough to put into the hole, and pack in as much as you can and as far back as you can.(for safety sake, please use strong gloves when handling). 
Next, use the areosol to pump & fill the hole with the foam & leave to set.
(Any excess once set, can be trimmed carefully with a sharp knife then plastered over to make smooth.)
The foam will expand behind the hole into any spaces that it can and also carry some of the glass with it, effectively blocking more of the route. The glass will stop the mice from being able to chew through it.
If you cant get the foam, you can mix up cement or plaster with some broken glass and plug the hole as far back as you can. It will stop them coming through that bit again, but they still have the route behind and may find another weak spot to get through.
Hope your birds recover well


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you. I will do that. I closed the hole with cement, or whatever that is. I mixed some powder with water and closed it, it's still closed, but I can get that foam, although it won't be necessary once my new tiles arrive. 

I'm not sure if I can get Sal Bac, but I know I can buy Chevita's vaccine (http://www.chevita.com/en/products/chevivac-S.php) and I wanted to ask you if they can be vaccinated at all if they had salmonella??

And do you also think that the mice are to blame??


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