# Can anyone help me?



## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Hi everyone!

One week ago now I found a young pigeon that couldn't fly or even walk. She was in a busy train station, so I knew immediately I should help her. I put her into a box and took her with me.

She is still a baby, but has "grown up looking" gray feathers, with some yellowish baby feathers sticking out from her neck. Someone experienced with pigeons told me she should be old enough to eat by herself. 

She has progressed everyday; 

She eats oatmeal mix from a pipette a few times a day with good appetite. She has also started to eat seeds all by herself. She is not afraid of me anymore, and she seems very awake and curious; she's a very alert little thing! 

When she is held up high, she starts to flap her wings, and today she flew slightly higher for a little moment~ so she is progressing and her wings seem very strong and healthy.

So what's the problem then? 

The first moment I saw her I thought something might be wrong with her, because she couldn't fly or walk, or even stand on her own feet. But then, as I'm not experienced with pigeons, I thought it might just be normal baby behavior.

It's just very weird that she doesn't use her legs at all; even when she is on the floor or in her box she always tries to "walk" by moving her wings, instead of her legs~ which makes it extremely difficult for her!

She can somehow move her feet though, so they're not completely "paralyzed".

As I read this forum I came across with "Paramyxovirus infection", in which a pigeon's legs can paralyze among other symptoms. 

Do you think this is the case?

My pigeon also has some trouble eating her seeds, as she usually doesn't get to eat even the every second one, and so drops them easily from her beak. (I thought this could perhaps be typical for baby pigeons? As she only started eating seeds by herself a few days ago)

Also, sometimes when she makes a poop, it is normal looking but has some water (?) around it. 

Otherwise this pigeon seems very awake and extremely curious about her environment! She doesn't seem sick at all. So could there be any other explanation for her not walking by herself? 

Right now it's a problem, because she can't even walk to her food and water bowls in her box, so I always end up moving her to where she needs to go.

What to do with a pigeon like this? Is there anything that could save her legs still? Or can they heal by themselves? If they were broken, would it be obvious? 

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!!


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hi there and a big welcome to you!!!!

Your piggie sounds like it is still a very young squab. Can you post a picture to give us all a better idea of how old it might be.

I suspect your piggie is dropping seed because it is still learning how to feed itself.

Im not sure about the piggies legs. When they are very small squabs they sort of use their wings to stay upright.
I dont have enough experience tomake a judgement but I really dont think your piggie has PMV.

Where are you based? We could find a Wildlife rescue centre for you.They could advise. Also hopefully someone else here could advise further.

Hope your little one will be okay.

Jayne


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Welcome! Sounds like you have a pretty young pigeon, and thanks for picking her up as she probably wouldn't have done so well in a busy train station. It is typical of her to drop seeds as she's learning to eat. It is not typical to walk on wings and not use her legs. The good news is that the legs aren't paralyzed. Can you notice if they are "splayed", such as when she tries to stand (if she does), or when she wing-walks, does each leg go out to either side? She may have "splay leg", which is correctable in young birds. It may be something else, and others will be along shortly to discuss medical causes. Make sure to provide her with a towel in her box, so she can get traction when trying to stand. Splay leg is often caused by being raised on a slippery surface with little or no traction, and many feral pigeons do indeed have nests like that since they are often the only nests available to them. Sounds like you're doing a great job with her and probably have made a friend for life.  Please feel free to ask any questions or share any thoughts you might have.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and Welcome to Pigeon Talk,

Thank you for helping this youngster.

Can you tell us from these different age baby pics approx. how old the baby is:

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm

Does the youngster have any odd looking lesions inside the beak, or is it nice and pink?

Are there any noticeable difference in the one leg versus the other, you can compare by running your fingers gently around the legs, and do the same with the wings. Any swelling anywhere?

You might also try to give the youngster some added probiotics for healthy gut bacteria, which can crowd out any bad bacteria. A lack of calcium in the iet can also cause them to have weak legs, you can add crushed oyster or liquid calcium to the diet.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Hi again!*

Thank You to you all for your quick responses! 

I'm very happy to be here at Pigeon Talk!

I feel slightly relieved that none of you so far think the little pigeon has PMV. I just got very nervous when I heard about the "paralyzed legs" being related to this virus.

I would say the pigeon is about 22 days old? I'll try to attach a picture for you to see! 

I have checked her legs; they both look the same and are not swollen. The legs also don't really go on each side when she is trying to stand. When she is trying to stand, she's just doing it with her body and wings, and her feet are just somewhere under her tight together~ I'll try to send a picture of her feet as well! 

She has a towel in her box made into a shape of a nest, which she really loves! It makes it so much easier for her to even stay in one place. (I also feed her while she is sitting in it)

Maybe the splay leg is the cause of her not-walking... I hope so, as then she would most likely be fine.

Her beak is also nice and pink inside~ no odd looking lesions.

Where can I buy some probiotics for her? And liquid calcium? How much to give her? I'd like to try that. 

I'm located in Europe (Denmark) right now. 

She is such a charming little creature, that I can see already now I've made a new friend for life!

Thank you for your help~ I'll keep you up-to-date with what happens with her! Each day has brought something new in her, so we'll hope for the best she'll start to stand and walk soon!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm concerned that the nutritional needs of your Little pigeon aren't being met and that perhaps the little one isn't getting enough to eat.
I don't know what you have available to you in Denmark but perhaps you could find a pet shop that sells a hand feeding formula for baby birds. Also, how much are you feeding each time and how often?
I sure don't doubt your love and concern for your new ward and I understand how absolutely endearing they are.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Feeding*

Hi Charis,

She eats an oatmeal mixture, which also includes some powdered wheat spores and bran. I have also added some finely crushed linseeds into the mix. It's all 100% raw.

I give this mixture to her at least three times a day, and each time she eats more than enough. I feed her with a pipette, and I do it by opening her beak (except today as she actually ate straight from the pipette herself). 

On top of that she gets seeds (pigeon seed mix) many times a day. 

I can sometimes also see from her if she gets hungry, which after I always feed her. 

I've only had her for 6 days, so I haven't got any special vitamins for her~ I've done a lot of internet search though, so I'm aware she needs some added vitamins like calcium soon.

When I first found the pigeon I went to the pet shop to buy some baby parrot formula for the feeding, but they didn't have any! I live in a quite small town right now, which is probably the reason the shops don't carry any baby formula for birds...

I've had many animals and I've also worked in a pet shop with parrots and other birds, so I'm rather confident she gets enough food and often enough. I will of course still keep looking for the formula, as I'm sure that would be the best option! (the oatmeal mix is only a temporary solution)

Thank you for your concern! And of course I welcome all possible ideas and recommendations when it comes to the feeding! (I'm very new with pigeons so any possible info is very appreciated)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I would remove the bran from the mix. It could be too much for her system.
How much food do you think the pipette holds?
At the top of this page, this is a search tab that you will find quite helpful and you also might want to explore," I've found a Pigeon, now what" category.
This bird is really lucky that you have experience with birds. Pigeons are a bit different from other birds but I can tell you will pick that up really quickly. 
It is a very cute baby, by the way.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*The bran*

Oh, I will remove it from the mix! Luckily I've only added it twice and each time very little. Thanks for the advice!

In fact, I came to this forum the same night I found her! It was a great help and support! (still is)

Thank you, I think she is very cute as well.  And she has such a great personality! She is so curious and awake! I also let her be in her "nest" on my lap or stomach, which she loves and I hope it'll make her feel even more comfortable (she also loves to observe the surrounding a lot).

I've always loved pigeons on the streets, but now as I've actually got to know one I'm even more impressed! They're such fascinating little creatures!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hopefully, ippychick, other members will be along to give advice about possible massages, phyical therapy techniques and possible creams to use on those feet. 

--Do her toes seem to have any strength at all? 
--Do the toes curl under or stay straight? 
--Feet warm to the touch?
--Has she/he gained weight? Do you have a scale to weigh?
--Poops OK?

Your little one is such a cutie! Wishing you both all the best!

Sending Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ippychick,



I am not aware of any association per-se, between PMV and paralized or limp Legs.


However, Legs can become too weak to use from inflammations of the Kidneys, effecting their Sciatic Nerves, so, anything effecting an inflammation of the Kidneys, in theory, can occasion their Legs becomine useless for the time being.

This can be occasioned from some Bacterial or Protozoal infections, or other illnesses to which the Kidneys may be sensitive...

Falling and injuring their lower Back, can do so also.


If your youngster is making 30 to 45, nice 'Raisen' Size poops every 24 hours, then they are eating enough or being fed enough.


You may encourage her to peck, by pecking with her, useing your crook'd index finger...even having the back of your hand next to or against her Wing as you do so. Small size whole Seeds, such as Finch Seed or Canary Seed are very good for them to learn to peck with, and also White Safflower, though larger, they seem to manage well with as novices.


For them, at this age especially, eating is also a social or familial thing, connected to emotion and safety-comfort...


Possibly she injured her Back in a fall, and whether her Leg issue is from that, or, some Virus or other illness, it may take some weeks or even months to resolve.

If the poops continue to be other then well defined and merely moist, let us know, since she may have an illness for which some medical regimen would be best. Poops should be brown-green with white urates, formed more or less to be the size of a Raisen, and not having any liquid to them.

If you see any 'yellowish' urates, let us know...


Meanhile, if she gets soiled from poops, since she can not stand or walk to poop away from where she lays, you can just allow her a simple Bath in the sink now and then, in shallow cool Water, useing the fingers of your free hand to gently wash and massags off any soiling of her underside, with you supporting her securely in your other hand so she does not worry...and get her nice and clean again every now and then.

She is a very pretty youngster..!


I am very glad you found her and are caring for her.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Back in the forum!*

Sorry for my disappearance, but I've had a little cold~ and as you can imagine, to be sick AND take care of a little pigeon can be a lot to handle! (just need to remember to feed myself, too) 

Thanks for the messages Shi & Squeaks AND Phil!

The little pigeon has progressed day by day! She's still not perfect with her feet, but it seems as she's somewhat improved~ right now it looks as the other foot was a little better than the other. And when she 'stands', she stands on the whole part under her 'knees'.

*Let me answer Shi's questions to start with;*

1. I think she does have some strength in her toes, and I have seen her move them a little as well. In the beginning both of the feet seemed very limp, but now the left one seems much better~ the right one though, looks very limp still...

2. The toes curl under in the other foot now, and in the other they stay much more straight. 

3. Both of the feet are warm. 

4. Scale is a great idea! I'll start weighing her, but I can already see she has grown since I found her.

5. Poops seem fine, no more liquid around them like in the beginning.

*Then to Phil's questions and comments...*

1. Yeah, the youngster poops a lot! I haven't counted them though, but I'm sure it's around the numbers you mentioned. Sometimes they are about a size of a raisin, and sometimes much more. 

2. She has really improved with pecking! It's still a big mess when she does it; seeds fly all over the place when she is pecking, but I can see she is getting them into her mouth much better now! She also prefers to eat her oatmeal mix from the pipette by pecking, so that's cool as well... 

3. You said eating for them in this age is also a social or familial thing~ I've noticed that! She gets so excited when it's feeding time! I also take her on my lap afterwards and just stroke her head and wings, which she really enjoys and makes her fall asleep...

4. The poops look normal right now, but I'm gonna keep an eye on them! I haven't seen that liquid around them for a while now.

5. It's good you mentioned the bath, because I've been wanting to do it! When I first found her, she had a lot of poop gathered under her~ it was really a lot, so I did clean it as much as possible then, and now it's been so much cleaner. But I'm glad to hear she's old enough to get a bath now! // Should I just dry her with a towel afterwards, or gently with a hairdryer, etc? (I saw on TV the other day someone drying their pigeon with a hairdryer after a bath!) 

6. If her feet/back are injured because of a fall, etc, is there a chance for a full recovery then? Even if it took a lot of time? At least she's improved a little bit by now, which is already a great sign.

The little pigeon is really social, and I've noticed she has tried to follow me a few times! Even yesterday she flew on my lap to be fed, which was really funny... Now the thing to focus on are the feet, as even her flying has improved day by day! Yesterday I took her out for the first time; she was just sitting on the grass and looking around~ it must've been her first time to see grass as she is from a big train station...

Thanks for all of your help and support so far! I'll keep you up-to-date about what's going on! 

Jo


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi ippychick,

Below are a couple of links explaing how to dose w/Baytril and where to
purchase it. Please get some Baytril and start dosing your bird. I can't
tell you how many birds I've had in this year in this kind of condition or
worse from Paratyphoid. This is what I would do if this baby came into 
my care and showed no signs of injury. The ones I have treated in this 
way fully regained use of their feet and legs.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16368

Good luck to you and your bird. 

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Ippychick!

I hope when you take her outside that she is protected from predators, unless that isn't a problem in your area. It's amazing how fast a predator (e.g. a hawk) can snatch them from right under your nose!

I'm glad to hear he/she is doing better and hope all goes well for her legs and feet.

Have you thought of a name?

Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Jo is there anyway of getting an x-ray of her legs or feet? Maybe she has a hairline break and that could hurt so she isn't putting any weight down on it. Very happy to hear she is pecking at foods. Pigeons are very intelligent birds and can steal your heart in seconds. Good luck with your new friend and pet her for me 

Cindy


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2007)

Ippychick,

There isn't enough information to tell you with any sureness what is happening. The one clue you gave that may be indicative of nerve damage is the curled toes. It may be that this bird suffered a spinal injury, not enough to break the back but enough to cause a bad insult to the nerves. 
If you can get this bird to a vet, they can do analysis and tell you if infection collapsed the legs. I wouldn't medicate without knowing anything for sure but what you could do is physical therapy to keep the muscles from atrophying. Extend each leg to its full length and then push it back to it's smallest position. Do this about 50 times with each leg, twice a day and this assumes spinal injury but it won't do any harm. This may take months to resolve. Nerves don't regenerate that quickly so keep those muscles moving to prevent atrophy. Sometimes a steroid injection can take the pressure off the nerves.

About paramyxo virus, any infection can collapse the legs so it's all the more reason to try and get a fecal analysis done.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ippychick,

I have found that the most common cause of "paralysed" legs in squabs is 
lack of calcium in the diet. Calcium supplements were mentioned in another reply, have you tried them? I use two drops of liquid calcium daily and the babies show a marked improvement within a week and were walking properly within a very short time.

One of my rescues was so severely paralysed that her legs just dragged behind her, it was a wonderful day for me when she stood on her "knees" and shuffled along as that was a mark of progress.

This is a link to a case history:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10013&referrerid=560


Cynthia


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*FP;* Thank you for the info relating Baytril! I will absolutely try to get it for her! So I guess cases like this aren't that uncommon then, which makes me somewhat positive... 

*Shi & Squeaks;* Yes, I was very concerned when I took her out, but luckily there aren't any hawks around here! She stayed on the grass right next to me, which I think made also her feel more comfortable. I know there are four cats around this neighborhood though, so once she can go outside all by herself, I'm probably still gonna be nervous for her... I have actually been calling her "Vivi", so yes she does have a name.  

*Cindy;* Yeah, of course I could try to find a vet who could take an X-ray of her foot. As the other one has proven by now, I'm gonna wait for a few more days for the other one to catch up too~ if it doesn't improve, then an X-ray could be in use... Yeah, it's wonderful how quickly pigeons can take over your heart!


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

pigeonperson said:


> Ippychick,
> 
> There isn't enough information to tell you with any sureness what is happening. The one clue you gave that may be indicative of nerve damage is the curled toes. It may be that this bird suffered a spinal injury, not enough to break the back but enough to cause a bad insult to the nerves.
> If you can get this bird to a vet, they can do analysis and tell you if infection collapsed the legs. I wouldn't medicate without knowing anything for sure but what you could do is physical therapy to keep the muscles from atrophying. Extend each leg to its full length and then push it back to it's smallest position. Do this about 50 times with each leg, twice a day and this assumes spinal injury but it won't do any harm. This may take months to resolve. Nerves don't regenerate that quickly so keep those muscles moving to prevent atrophy. Sometimes a steroid injection can take the pressure off the nerves.
> ...


Thank you for the info, Pigeonperson! 

Do you think the nerve damage can still be the case when the other foot has improved? It seems much more strong now, and the toes aren't curled in that foot anymore. The other one doesn't seem to have improved yet.

I will do the physical therapy starting tomorrow! That's a great idea!


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

cyro51 said:


> Hi Ippychick,
> 
> I have found that the most common cause of "paralysed" legs in squabs is
> lack of calcium in the diet. Calcium supplements were mentioned in another reply, have you tried them? I use two drops of liquid calcium daily and the babies show a marked improvement within a week and were walking properly within a very short time.
> ...


Hi Cynthia, 

Yes, I have started to give her calcium some days ago now~ who knows if that has had something to do with the one foot getting better...? Just need to get the other one strong now! It's a shame, because she's really into the flying thing now, which is a little tricky each time she needs to land (and take off)...

Oh, that's fantastic with your little badly paralyzed pigeon! It must've been a moment you'll never forget~ I'm looking forward to the same with my little fellow. It's good to hear stories like this, thanks.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

ippychick said:


> Hi Cynthia,
> 
> Yes, I have started to give her calcium some days ago now~ who knows if that has had something to do with the one foot getting better...? Just need to get the other one strong now! It's a shame, because she's really into the flying thing now, which is a little tricky each time she needs to land (and take off)...
> 
> Oh, that's fantastic with your little badly paralyzed pigeon! It must've been a moment you'll never forget~ I'm looking forward to the same with my little fellow. It's good to hear stories like this, thanks.




Hi ippychick, 



Glad to hear things are improving..!


Would you describe the poops for us? Color ( in detail ) consistancy, size. how often ( roughly ) ?


Too, you can encourage her to use her legs by holding her gently by the Tail, on the Bed, so she can flap and thus take some of the weight off her Legs...and in that way, she can possibly sort of stand and 'walk' as you keep ahold of her tail, as she is flapping...

You can encourage her to Wing flap in your hands by holding her so her Wings have room to do so, and, slowly, settleing her on the Bed to continue there as you hold her Tail...they can pull quite strongly, too, when flapping even mildly, so hang on..!

I have done this many times with various paralysed Leg issues ones, and they all take to it and get it figured out pretty fast, and they really loved doing it and enjoyed the excercise...and would wait for me to hold their tails for them...

I'd be carrying them over to the bed, they'd launch out of my hands, land however so, and wait then looking over their shoulder at me, and soon as I had their Tail in my hand, they'd get into the flap-walk, and we'd do a bunch of that however many times-a-day.


You can let her 'walk' along taht way on the bed, then, stop for a moment, and start over if need be once you had used up what room there was and arrive too far to lean and or otherwise run out of room...it seems to work better letting them actualy 'walk' and cover distance then to oblige them to walk or stand in place.

Otherwise, hmmmmmmm...Viruses, Bacterial/Protozoan infections, contusion or other blunt trauma to the back...anything effecting the Kidneys causing inflammation of them or ajacent tissues, all can conspire to compromise the Sciatic Nerves and make the Legs become weak or limp.


Strain, sprain, 'green' fractures of the Leg Bones, also can make for a similar appearance, and one needs to look and feel and decide very sensitively in examining the Legs and the Bird as a whole, to try and decide if it is the Legs themselves which are injured, or, if it is the Legs being effected by something else that is effecting the Sciatic Nerve.

Poops which look like 'Spinach Dip' ( swirled white or yellowish urates in green fecal matter, especially when large and made only a few times a day ) suggest Virus or other infection effecting the Kidneys/Sciatic Nerve...

Muscle tone of the Vent proper, similarly...some Back/Nerve injurys tend to make their bowel movements difficult or delayed and the Pigeon may only pop once or twice a day or with difficulty.


And, of course, if the Bird has injury TO the Legs, one would not wish to impose Leg excercises on them, and or also, they would tend to protest or refuse such anyway, or would definitely not enter into flap-walking with eagerness and bright enthusiasm...



A ruptered or infected Oviduct can do this also in some instances, and one may find a greyish white calcium/mineral sort of material mixed with their poops, or, hardening in their Vent and clogging it....but your little Pigeon would be far too young for this to be a consideration.


Phil
l v


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Hi Phil*

Hi Phil!

Thank you so much for your last post! I read it already a while back; it was wonderful to read about the tail walking that you described... I did try it with my little one, but I'm gonna send another post about what has been going on lately!

(The poops~ did you get my last posting on page 1 for you? I described the poops there)

Thanks again for the last post! You seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience of pigeons! I wish you lived a little closer to me, so I could show my pigeon to you~ but more in the next posting!


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*The Latest!*

*Hi everyone!*

Sorry for my recent silence; things have been quite hectic lately. Apologies also for all of you, like Phil, who sent a reply about what could be the case with my pigeon and never got a reply from me! 

Here is the latest with the pigeon that I found (also the reason for my silence);

The little pigeon's ("Vivi") left leg improved dramatically, but as she kept limbing the other one we decided to take her to the vet. The vet looked at her for a few minutes, and said there's nothing she can do and the pigeon will never learn to walk properly. 

She said Vivi can't fully stretch her right leg, so she thought there has either been a trauma OR it is somehow deformed. (No x-ray was taken)

Then of course she just wanted to put her down, and kept repeating that is what we should consider doing.  

What a disappointment! I would have rather received news about some bacteria or disease, and then tried to fight it with some medication...

The vet literally looked at her just for a few minutes, and that's it! That was the most disappointing $55 I've ever had to pay! 

I didn't want to put her down though~ so she's still alive! 

Vivi is very fresh and awake in her head, and she doesn't seem to have any pain. She walks very clumsy though, as she is not using the toes in her right leg correctly. (They are not paralyzed either, but she just keeps them somewhat crumbled as she walks~ sometimes when she stands on a towel (etc) she does spread them properly, which makes her standing good!)

There are also some pigeon breeders around here, so we thought a good idea would be to contact them~ that didn't work out at all; either they said they would just put her down (without even seeing her), or that they can't take her in because she doesn't have a ring around her ankle... One lady we saw was also very rude; as soon as she heard it wasn't a "pedigree pigeon", she just told us to leave her on the grass outside somewhere!

Ahhh.....

We are still wanting to fix her leg, and have been trying to find & contact some pigeon specialists who are experienced with fixing pigeons' feet and legs~ maybe they could tell what to do. 

This little bird too wonderful to be put down~ and I've never been good with putting animals down if they are not in great pain or are still full of life.

So, that has been going on lately! 

Other than that she is eating well, growing, doing fine and awake. She has become just as attached to us as we have to her. She's a bundle of joy.  

Jo


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

(This is how she looks right now)


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Wow! Look at those beautiful feathers! Vivi is quite a little cutie beauty!!

- Are you still doing any physical therapy with her?
- Giving her Calcium?
- What do you have on her toes?

I know others will be along with their comments.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who, seeing a pij with any type of disability or injury, opt to put them down! What a shame.

There have been too many recovery stories here on the site of pijies who were pretty bad and made full wonderful recoveries!

Looks like you are doing a fine job, Jo...

Love, Hugs and Scitches

Shi & Squeaks


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Ippychick, sorry things did not go well for you at the vets and that you still
have no resolve where this is concerned. I can't say w/all certainty that this
is infection related, I can tell you that of the younsters/babies that I've picked
up w/similar curled toes and inability to stand that this was corrected by a course of Baytril. Their system pretty much then needs to get 'rebuilt' in terms
of replenishing the good bacteria that was wiped out from the antibiotic therapy. In fact, I've released two such young birds in the past two weeks
that had problems standing in addition to other symptoms when I first picked them up. Should you ever try the Baytril route, you would need to withold
calcium for the time being until the course of antibiotics was complete. Good 
luck w/your little one, really, she is such a little beauty.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Vivi is just incredibly beautiful. Bless you for loving this bird and giving it a chance at life with you. 

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ippychick, 




You can make some simple Diorthotic 'shoes' which will spread her Toes so when she does stand or walk, the Toes will be in a normal array and not accidently 'under'.


Just take some regular Cardboard, like from any brown Cardboard Box...and with a Razor Blade, cut out a shape which is the shape of what her overall footprint would be, with all the Toes in their normal array.


But, make the shape just as much smaller as to allow for her Toe Nails to overhang, even notching those places where the ends of the Toes will be so it keeps the Toes in the right place, in the notches.


Pad this then a little with some folded Toilet Paper, in the center area, and tape her foot to it, gently wrapping the tape over and around and so on.


The best tape for this is 'Micropore' Tape, 99 cents-a-roll ( 1/2 in width size ) easy to get at any medical supply strip mall place.


So, if I understand correctly...


There has been no 'yellow' in her urates, or hints of yellow?

Have the poops been like 'Spinach Dip'? Medium-Green, streaky with Urates..?


Can you post some poop images?


Post more of her too..!


So, she is putting weight on one Leg fairly well, and not-so-well on the other Leg?



The 'holding their Tail on the Bed' Wing flapping excercise, which takes weight off their Legs as they flap, and lets them 'walk' while flapping...might be good to do if you have not been. You can support her from underneath with your other hand to get her started or to work in her getting the idea so she will flap...if Leg No. "2" is up to it...

Once she gets it, I am sure she will enjoy it and look forward to it.


She sure is lovely..!


Good luck..!


Yahhhhh, the Vet merely clipped you out of fifty-five bucks for a whole lot of nothing but a pretended exam and a bad attitude form them.


Sorry to hear of it, but some of them are that way.


If there are any Parrot Rescue groups in your area, ask them what Vets they like...who knows, there might be some good ones..!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Jo,

Not being able to stretch her leg is a bit of a worry, did she mention how this happened? Did you try the physical therapy that Pigeon Person recommended? If so, when did it become difficult to extend the leg?

If the vet just gave her a cursory examination I wouldn't take that diagnosis as final. This is what a vet told one of our members:



> Apparently he has got a broken wing & fractured knee, and missing tail with possibly dog puncture marks, but the tail will grow back,the vet said he will never be able to return to the wild and the best thing was to put him to sleep.
> I told the vet that I have a home for him in Norwich, she said it would be kinder to put him to sleep as the odds are he will never fly again and simply hobble about.


Well, the pigeon beat the odds, she flies and walks with a very slight limp. She lost her first mate last winter, but quickly found another and is happy and healthy.

You can often correct a curled foot. I had a wood pigeon brought to me with what was described as a "congenital abnormaility of the toes". I stretched the whole foot out between two layers of self adhsive support bandage. Because it was so much more flxible that a splint it didn't upset him at all. After a week I removed the bandage : his toes were normal and they never curled back into their old position.

I can't guarantee that this will happen with all cases, but it is gentle enough to do no harm, specially as she is able to stretch out her toes.


----------



## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello ippychick,

Just now saw this thread. Been a bit delinquent in following the news at PT due to tiredness and being a bit run down, but ...

there is a pigeon clinic in Essen, in Germany. Bit of a distance for you, but it is there. 

I've been informed that the doctor is the best in Germany. His heart is with the wild pigeons, but he treats the racers and fancies to support his clinic. Lots of people have him check out there birds on a routine basis. 

Contact me if you want further info, or some antibiotics.

Vivi is a beauty. 

I have a two-year-old rescued-as-a-28-day-old and hand-raised male pigeon, Wieteke, couldn't use legs when found, limps on his left foot, and has he toes of his left foot curled under. Can't raise left toes for grabbing, but can grab with left foot when placed onto object. Real macho, has raised five youngsters from two mates. Have helped some other pigeons with similar problems.

Larry (in Cologne).


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Shi & Squeaks*



mr squeaks said:


> Wow! Look at those beautiful feathers! Vivi is quite a little cutie beauty!!
> 
> - Are you still doing any physical therapy with her?
> - Giving her Calcium?
> ...



*Hi Shi & Squeaks! *

Thanks for your post...  

Yes, it's very true about the negative attitudes towards pigeons with injuries~ it's been still very surprising though... Luckily there are all these recovery stories like you said, which give hope and reminds of the positive reality!

To your questions...

*1.* Yes, she is still getting some physical therapy, but mainly massage and not stretching. 

*2.* Yes, she's still getting daily calcium.

*3.* What is there on her toes; I was wondering if anyone would notice! It is to stretch the toes, so she would learn to keep them straight. We read about this on the internet, and luckily there have also been a few postings about it here! Need to make a new one tomorrow though, following the new instructions~ hopefully it'll help! (*fingers crossed*)

_More soon..._

Take care!!  

Jo


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Feralpigeon*



feralpigeon said:


> Hi Ippychick, sorry things did not go well for you at the vets and that you still
> have no resolve where this is concerned. I can't say w/all certainty that this
> is infection related, I can tell you that of the younsters/babies that I've picked
> up w/similar curled toes and inability to stand that this was corrected by a course of Baytril. Their system pretty much then needs to get 'rebuilt' in terms
> ...


*Hi Feralpigeon!*

Thanks for the post!

Yes, it has been quite frustrating with everything that has been going on with trying to get help, but I'm still keeping a positive mind! And I must also add, that all the support here on this forum has been truly amazing! 

I have kept Baytril on mind, even though I haven't tried it yet. I'm still considering it, so I'll let you know what happens! 

Take care!

Jo


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*TAWhatley*



TAWhatley said:


> Vivi is just incredibly beautiful. Bless you for loving this bird and giving it a chance at life with you.
> 
> Terry


*Hi Terry,*

Oh, that's so sweetly said~ thank you!  

(She is sitting on my lap as I'm writing this)

Jo


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*pdpbison*



pdpbison said:


> Hi ippychick,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Hi Phil!*

Thank you for the post!

Great instructions to make the "Diorthotic shoes", thank you! We tried something similar, but it didn't work out as well as expected, as the toes were "wrapped" individually and she was still able to curl them. 

We'll do the "Diorthotic shoes" first thing tomorrow morning, so I'll let you know how it goes! (You don't happen to have any pictures of this done by you?) 

To your questions;

*1.* No, there has been no 'yellow' in her urates, or even a hint of yellow. (What does the color yellow indicate?) 

*2. *Yes, the poops have been like 'spinach dip', and medium-green & streaky with urates. Only if she has drank a lot at once or eaten something very watery (like soaked berries), then her poop can get a little loose/watery, but it gets back to normal in about a day. She doesn't eat the formula anymore, but I noticed when she did, that was making her poop more runny as well.

*3. *Yes, I can post some poop images! I don't have any right now, so I'll take some tomorrow!

*4.* I'll post more of her too.  

*5.* Yes, she is putting weight on one leg very well~ I'd say it's working perfectly now! The leg No. 2 not-so-well. 

It looks as the problem was the curling of the toes in this leg, which makes the walking difficult. When she stands on a towel or something edgy, she does straighten the toes correctly~ so it is possible! 

The walking does look quite bad though, especially when she is on the floor, because she limbs. Sometimes she uses her wing as support on the 'bad side', like she was leaning on to it. (Maybe I could film her walk and put it online)

*6.* We have tried the "tail-walking-on-the-bed", which she enjoys. It's very good. (Plus she loves any chance to be on the bed!)


Yeah, the vet... I keep reminding myself they're not all bad.  That truly was the most disappointing $55 I've ever spent in a matter of minutes! (Actually *$76* now when the dollar is so low) I also felt so sorry for Vivi, because she behaved SO WELL there! 

But, luckily there was a new posting here by "Larry_Cologne" about a vet that sounds very promising! (He also writes about one of his own pigeons, that sounds very much like Vivi!)

Thank you again for your post, and I'll keep you up-to-date about what happens!

Take care!

Jo


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, Miss Vivi is just gorgeous and I'm sure very appreciative of all the attention you've been giving her. Count me in on the cheering section (no advice, just cheers!  )


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Jo

Miss Vivi is a doll. I am copying a link that may be helpful in fixing her feet. You may also like to do a search on this forum because this has come up many times.

http://www.peafowl.org/ARTICLES/1/


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Cyro51*



cyro51 said:


> Hi Jo,
> 
> Not being able to stretch her leg is a bit of a worry, did she mention how this happened? Did you try the physical therapy that Pigeon Person recommended? If so, when did it become difficult to extend the leg?
> 
> ...



*Hi Cynthia!*

Thank you for your post!

The vet said she can't know for sure what has happened to the leg, but she said it's probably either trauma OR it's deformed. If it is a trauma, then even a broken bone could have simply grown into a wrong position (I doubt this is the case though). 

When Pigeon Person recommended the physical therapy I didn't do it until I had taken her to the vet~ simply in case the leg was broken. I did look and feel the legs many times before that though, and I never noticed the other leg wasn't stretching 100%~ it wasn't so obvious.

Yes, I agree with you about the vet's diagnoses, and I love the story about the pigeon that recovered so wonderfully!! 

We tried to make some bandage around her toes (like the last picture I posted shows), but as we did them separately it didn't work out. Tomorrow morning we'll bandage her whole foot and hope for the best! Can it be left for one week straight? Or does it need to be taken off some days? (You don't happen to have any pictures of the one you did?)

I'll let you know how it goes!

Take care, and thanks again for the post!

Jo


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

ippychick,

I think it would be good to review ligaments, tendons and nerves. 

Ligaments hold bones to other bones.
Tendons hold muscles to bones.
Nerves control muscle movement meaning how tendons and ligaments expand and contract and therefore operate the muscles.

The curling of toes can indicate a lot of different things that have gone wrong. A nutritional deficiency can collapse the legs and the toes can go limp but they don't normally curl.

An infection can collapse the legs and the toes can go limp but again, they don't usually curl.

A nerve injury can cause ligaments and tendons not to work properly or not at all and cause the toes to curl. The tendons and ligaments can atrophy and that shrinkage will cause the toes to curl inward. If this is the case, then straightening out the toes will only work while there is any kind of a splint on. When the splint comes off, there are still no messages being received by the toes and they willl curl.

If your bird was hit on the spine, then there appears to be partial nerve damage with the toes getting the worst of it. One leg appears to be better than the other and it's the worse of the two legs that also shows toe curling.

If and when all the healing that can happen, happens and the toes are still curled on one foot, then the bird is left with a serious problem. A bird cannot be allowed to walk with curled toes for two reasons;

1) The bird will walk on it's 'knuckles' which were never meant to be abraided like that and infection will eventually set in. If it does, the bird would not even feel the pain. The infection spreads and eventually, the bird dies.

2) The bird could walk on one leg in order to protect the bad foot and that will put too much pressure on the bottom of the good foot. That will eventually cause an infection to form under the good foot called bumble foot. Any bird that walks off balance can develop this infection. Surgery can be done and antibiotics can be given but bumble foot is stubborn and can return.

To me, and this supposes that there is nerve damage, there is only one solution and that is to amputate the top haves of each of the toes that are paralyzed. It sounds radical but it is done more often than you realize. To reiterate, that bird cannot be left to walk on it's knuckles for the rest of its life.

This is assuming that things will not get better and they may but you have to be made aware of the things that can happen if they don't. There are plenty of birds walking around outside that have some or no toes on one foot and they do fine.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Larry_Cologne*



Larry_Cologne said:


> Hello ippychick,
> 
> Just now saw this thread. Been a bit delinquent in following the news at PT due to tiredness and being a bit run down, but ...
> 
> ...



*Hi Larry!*

Thanks for your post! I'm glad you had the energy to come here at Pigeon Talk.

A pigeon clinic in Essen? Wow. Funny enough, we were supposed to attend a convention there last weekend! What a coincidence.

Also the doctor sounds great~ exactly the kind a vet should be!

I would love to have some more information about the clinic, if it's possible! Maybe I could also ask you about some antibiotics, etc. 

Wieteke~ he sounds exactly like Vivi! How did you take care of him? Also Vivi couldn't use neither of her legs when she was found, so she has improved a lot. 

Wieteke is macho? How adorable! I'm sure he would also win Vivi over if they were to meet one day.  

Can I ask, how can you see a pigeon's sex? I read somewhere that size is one indicator, and blood samples another. I can't see Vivi as a boy though; she's somehow so feminine!

Well, thank you again for your post! 

And take care~ hopefully you are not feeling so tired anymore... 

Jo


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> (You don't happen to have any pictures of the one you did?)


I remember taking photos but can't find them (the hard disc of the computer I was using then got corrupted, I recovered most of the photos but they are not divided into albums and don't have titles.

I called the bandage a "foot glove", Heken (Nooti) said it was a good invention. What you do is lay a piece of self adhesive bandage fklat on a surface, make the pigeon step on to it, fold it over the top of the foot and then press down around the foot and between the toes. Then you trim the bandage's outer edges so that it is just a bit larger than the foot.

Yes, it can be left on for a week.

Cynthia


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

*toenails*

vivi is very pretty! certainly pretty enough for us to want more pictures .

based on the last photo you posted, her toenails look really long, which would be in keeping with her not walking and wearing them down. perhaps you should trim them, or least the ones one the bad foot.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Aias said:


> vivi is very pretty! certainly pretty enough for us to want more pictures .
> 
> based on the last photo you posted, her toenails look really long, which would be in keeping with her not walking and wearing them down. perhaps you should trim them, or least the ones one the bad foot.


Hi Aias!

Oh, thank you!  Vivi will be very happy once I tell her what you said about her.  

The toenails~ I'm glad you said that! I was wondering if they were too long! The other day I was just about to cut them, but in the end didn't do it, as I only had human nail clippers~ can they break a bird's nail? I went as close as putting the nail in between the clippers, but then got scared I'd hurt her!  

But yeah, another go tomorrow then... (if the human clippers are fine? I guess scissors are not?)


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ippychick said:


> Hi Aias!
> 
> Oh, thank you!  Vivi will be very happy once I tell her what you said about her.
> 
> ...


Human clippers will work but you need to be careful not to cut so much that the nail bleeds. Trim little bits at a time. Have some baking soda handy incase one bleeds or You pick up Stypic Powder which would be a good thing to have on hand. You probably can find some a a pharmacy.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ippychick,
In reading back through the thread, I noticed that you have bayrtil for Vivi but haven't used it yet. Please do. It could make a huge difference. When ever I receive a bird that can't use their legs and feet, that is not related to broken bone or bones, I start a course of Baytril. The improvement has always been within 5-7 days. 
Years ago I found a young duck that was unable to walk and it was hard to imagine that it ever would walk. The vet put him on Baytril and he made a full recovery.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Charis said:


> ippychick,
> In reading back through the thread, I noticed that you have bayrtil for Vivi but haven't used it yet. Please do. It could make a huge difference. When ever I receive a bird that can't use their legs and feet, that is not related to broken bone or bones, I start a course of Baytril. The improvement has always been within 5-7 days.
> Years ago I found a young duck that was unable to walk and it was hard to imagine that it ever would walk. The vet put him on Baytril and he made a full recovery.


Ditto, ippychick, ditto.....please, please, give Baytril a try. Clipping the toenails is also a good idea on GP if too long....hold off on amputation until after trying Baytril.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ippychick,



Sorry I had missed your post replying to my poop questions - 'Spinach Dip' and so on...


As for me, I have come to suspect some sort of Virus to be associated with streaky Urates in Spinach Dip looking poops.

Occasions of my seeing such poops have also seen Paralysed Legs, or semi-paralized Legs...and sometimes some compromise in the reflex of the Vent aperature itself, and or also where the Bird does not poop often but poops 'big' when they do.


Now, this could also be not a Virus, but some Bacterial or other infection which is effecting the Kidneys and Sciatic Nerve.

It could maybe be an Oviduct infection, of a Bacterial sort, but I do not know how to corelate that with an obviously 'young' Bird such as you have there.


That is as far as I have gotten in my own experience and conjecture.


Now, as fp ( and I think pp also ) has suggested, 'Baytril' might be something good to try...and, it will not hurt.

Possibly, an Erythromycin would be worth considering.


Possibly others will have some insight or intuitions on this general syndrome of an otherwise healthy-enough seeming Pigeon, having Leg weakeness or Leg paralysis, and making a fraily distinctive sort of poop/urate combo, in which the poops resemble medium Green 'Spinach Dip' with streaked Urates, whether those Urates are unambiguously 'White', or tending to a Yellow hue.


Wish I had more to offer...


But those are my thoughts for this.


I would urge you to sound out a few more opinions here, and to get her on whatever Antibiotic seems to be everyone's best guess.


If your Vet is a dud, probably others here could send you some or direct you to sources close to you, or Mail Order.


Some meds of course can be had very cheap at Farm Supply Stores.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Vivi taking a turn for the worse?*

Hello Johanna,

To put a few things in perspective for the USA PT forum members: I mentioned the _Taubenklinik_ or pigeon clinic in Essen, but it is probably not practical for Jo/Ippychick, who lives in the middle of Denmark (north of Germany), 596 kilometers away from the clinic, and a six hour drive when there is no traffic (and there usually is). I mentioned it because some people think nothing of hopping in their car (or plane, or helicopter!) and going a thousand miles, while others hesitate to leave their homes. Didn’t want to rule out the possibility simply because of my own limitations, and perspective on a situation. We read about people who have a private jet take their pet across the Atlantic to a vet, or a piece of clothing they wish to wear (as in the book on haute couture _The Devil Wears Prada_). I don’t personally know anyone with such resources … yet. She emailed me regarding meds, which are on the way, but will not get there probably for a few days (international mail usually takes five days at least). 

You said in your email regarding meds I am mailing to you that last night your pigeon *Vivi *started to act really strange, after apparently doing so well. Please, please elaborate.

Quote from Jo's eMail:



> I've had mine for 5 weeks now, and I must say it has been extremely time consuming to take care of her! I've been able to do very little work and other things, and at times I've felt extremely exhausted! Of course it's easier now, as she is older and can eat by herself, but she still has some problems with the other leg~ and now also what happened yesterday... For a moment I almost lost my balance, because as soon as things had started to go well, something bad had to happen! (She suddenly couldn't really fly anymore and she keeps her tail down! She also stays in one place now, where ever I put her. I wonder if she hit herself yesterday without me seeing it, but I don't know. She's been SO hyperactive lately, that it's really shocking how she could change 100%! At least she still eats and drinks well, which is a good sign... But it's weird with her tail and wings! Worrying.)


Caring for and worrying about a pigeon can be exhausting, when we get involved. I suppose that is why it is good we have hospitals, so docs and nurses can parcel out the tasks and worries, and leave the problems at work when they go home. It would be nice if pigeon rescuers and carers had that option available. 

Sounds as if Vivi is in a crisis. From your posts I don't get a feel for what is going on right now with Vivi. Sounds like paratyphoid/salmonellosis (pigeon specific, humans won't catch it). Please post some more info. 

I see that you post mostly late at night (Central European Time). Are you taking Vivi to the vet today? Do you have Baytril on hand, or only "in mind"? 

Pigeon holding tail down often indicates abdominal pain. If you go to vet, take recent poop sample in plastic sandwich bag, or such (keeps it moist and easy for vet to see). 

My recently rescued baby pigeon *Luxie-311 *couldn't use legs for moving around, but did have feeling in legs. Vet thought it was a matter of nutrition: fast feather-growing demands a lot of energy. Gave her cotrim and grit, etc. She still can't use tail, but flies well otherwise. Saw her doing well a week or so ago, a month after her release onto the street. Her tail drooped while I watched her peck for food. 

Hold Vivi in your cupped hands, using thumbs to keep her from falling, and tilt her forwards and backwards (she should instinctively move her tail up and down in an instinctive reflex effort to maintain her balance. This will tell us whether she has abdominal pain or nerve damage with tail. 

The one-legged pigeon *Swingleg* I have been observing for two years or more is a local street pigeon. She has both legs, but only one functions fully. When she is afoot, she makes a swimming motion with her left leg, which is totally useless except for perhaps balance, and slowly hops to a source of food. She has trouble scrambling after food, and does well only if someone drops enough to keep other pigeons likewise occupied for a while. She has a mate or buddy, who looks after her. At least, he shows up whenever I provide for her at a certain place. I saw her two days in a row last week in the same spot in the grass near some bushes, where I deposited a supply for her, but haven't seen her since. I have never gotten closer than two meters to her, since she must maintain a healthy escape distance.

Good luck, and take care, 

Larry


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Hi everyone!*

Just a quicky;

Thanks for your replies~ I didn't see them until now!

I called the vet clinic on TUESDAY morning begging for them to give me a prescription of Baytril over the phone. (The same clinic I took her the other week) The secretary said the vet wasn't there, but promised to ask all the other vets in case they'd be willing to make the prescription for me. They promised to call me asap, so I was clued to the phone all day. The vet who saw Vivi was also having a day-off on Wednesday, so she didn't call me today either, and obviously also all the other vets haven't been willing to give me the Baytril.

So, I will call them again tomorrow morning! I did tell them already on Tuesday though, that's it's an emergency, and I really expected to get the antibiotics on Tuesday~ so when I still couldn't get them today, I have been extremely stressed out!

Vivi is ok. She doesn't want to fly though, just walk and stand. Still eats and drinks normally, and grooms herself. She gets very observant when I'm close to her or when I talk to her, so she reacts a lot. Also her eyes are clear, and poops look fine. I'm not giving her calcium or grit anymore. She stays in places I put her, and the biggest thing is she's not flying anymore. 

Tomorrow should be latest day to get the medication, and just to let you all know, I've been determined to give her antibiotics! 

Larry has also sent some meds by normal mail, so we'll see what is the quickest!

Thanks to you all, once again... I'll let you know tomorrow what's happening! 

*extremely stressful two days*

Jo


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Charis said:


> ippychick,
> In reading back through the thread, I noticed that you have bayrtil for Vivi but haven't used it yet. Please do...............................


Hi Charis!

No, I haven't had any Baytril before~ if I have written that, then it must have been an honest accident?! 

I wrote another post about the current situation (it was for everybody, so also for you).

Vivi will get Baytril (antibiotics), there's no doubt about that anymore. I probably should have done it immediately after finding her, but as I started to try all the other things, and as she also got in such good condition! I thought she was heading for a full recovery. Well, can't make it different anymore, so better not kick myself too much.

Thanks again~ I'll post more soon...

Jo & Vivi


----------



## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> Sorry I had missed your post replying to my poop questions - 'Spinach Dip' and so on... As for me, I have come to suspect some sort of Virus to be associated with streaky Urates in Spinach Dip looking poops............


Hi Phil,

Thanks again.

Larry has sent me some meds a few days ago, plus I've been waiting for the vet to call me since Tuesday morning (see above the other post about that). All the online shops that sell Baytril acquire a prescription, so that's no help either. 

I think the antibiotics/Baytril is the best shot now~ whatever the cause is. And yeah, there's nothing to lose, like you said.

It's just strange, that since Vivi was found she has improved and done so well! I thought she was heading for a full recovery~ that's how great she was doing! It was only that other leg, but even that has been _much better_ lately!

I even got afraid the new liquid calcium & grit had something to do with this sudden change, as I gave it to her in matter of hours when she also got 'strange'. But, I guess it was simply a coincidence... 

I have become so emotionally focused on getting her well and keeping her happy, that it is extremely devastating to see her change like this. 

The meds is the best option now.

Take care! 

(More soon...)

Jo


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

oh i am so sorry that vivi is not feeling well, i hope that you get the baytril soon, and if you think that vivi is not feeling well then make sure that is kept in a warm environment. also, for the future using a nail clipper, such as the ones used for cats work really well on pigeon toenails.

baby biko sends positive thoughts:


----------



## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Aias said:


> oh i am so sorry that vivi is not feeling well, i hope that you get the baytril soon..............


Aias,

Ah, how wonderful~ baby Biko is so beautiful! Even just the look in the eyes... Ah!

That really was the sweetest thing, and really needed, THANK YOU so much. Really.

Kiss to baby Biko! His (/her) positive thoughts are well appreciated! (Soon Vivi will be well enough to send some back!)

// Vivi is being kept warm at the moment, and tomorrow I should be (fingers grossed) the day to finally get those meds!! The nails will be clipped soon too (once she's better), with proper clippers.


----------



## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Here are just a few pictures of Vivi from yesterday~ just about an hour before she "got strange"!


----------



## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*::Quick Update::*

*QUICK UPDATE:*

The vet finally called this morning; 

She asked why do I want the antibiotics. I explained to her, and as she sounded slightly reluctant I even read some parts for her from a pigeon book (relating symptoms of Salmonelloses). I also told that pigeon experts (meaning all of you) have recommended antibiotics for a long time already.

The vet said "you can't just give them if you _suspect_ the bird to have something"~ which after I gave my best-ever-convince-speech; she still wanted to talk to someone and promised to call me back.

I was nervous when she called again, but luckily she decided to give the antibiotics! 

_"Hurray!" _  

I had asked for the Baytril already on Tuesday morning, but she didn't want to give it~ instead, I got some liquid Synulox. 

I need to give her 0,7 ml twice a day, for 10 days. 

Does this sound ok? Unfortunately I couldn't get the Baytril. 

In the early afternoon I _also_ received the meds* by mail from Larry! (Thanks, Larry) By this time I had started the Synulox already, so I'm giving that to Vivi now.

I saw a thread started by Cynthia/cyro51 about Synulox and penicillin sensitivity~ that was good info, as I might have a sensitivity to it... 

Other than that, *IF* Vivi has Salmonellosis, is it contagious to people? Should I get checked, too? The vet on the phone said if that's the case, then also I have it by now... Is this true? Is Salmonellosis the same than Salmonella? (sorry for my ignorance)

Keep you up-to-date... 

And please, if there's anything you want to say about this Synulox, feel free! (That's what I'm here for!!) 

THANKS!!

Jo/Ippychick

Ps. Vivi is doing really good today, but still not wanting to fly...

* *ADDITION:* 

The meds Larry sent me were *CIPRO* and *COTRIM*. I have started the Synulox already, but if you would advice me to swap it to one of Larry's, do let me know A-S-A-P! At least Larry so far might lean on the swapping of meds, and Maggie wasn't aware of Synulox...


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Re salmonellosis:

The bacteria called (Salmonella typhimurium var. Copenhagen) 
is pigeon specifc. Other birds and humans cannot catch it.

http://www.oropharma.com/en/duiven/html/paratyphus.html

Glad you got the meds. 

Larry


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Re salmonellosis: The bacteria called (Salmonella typhimurium var. Copenhagen) is pigeon specifc. Other birds and humans cannot catch it........


Thanks, Larry! 

Just wanted to check it one more time! (I know you already said it once in an e-mail)


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Ippychick,

Since you seemed to want extra verifiaction and reassurance, I decided to look up an actual quote for you, and found a small surprise at this link:

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/43/8/4208

JCM Journal of Clinical Microbiology, August *2005*, p. 4208-4211, Vol. 43, No. 8 



> Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Typhimurium var. Copenhagen isolates from a heifer-raising operation and from 11 dairy herds that had their calves contracted to the heifer-raising operation were examined for their phenotypic and genotypic characteristics. Results of the study showed that the heifer-raising operation could serve as a clearinghouse for Salmonella serovar Typhimurium var. Copenhagen and perhaps other Salmonella serotypes.
> 
> Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Typhimurium var. Copenhagen is an O:5-negative variant of Salmonella serovar Typhimurium which was primarily reported to be found in pigeons. It is now frequently isolated from cattle, swine, and other animals.


However, I have read in other sources that only pigeons are in danger from this serotype.

If you Google for "salmonellosis pigeon" you will find a number of links.

In this link: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/186/9/2619.pdf 


> JOURNAL OF BACTERIOLOGY, May *2004*, p. 2619–2628 Vol. 186, No. 9
> 0021-9193/04/$08.000 DOI: 10.1128/JB.186.9.2619–2628.2004
> Copyright © 2004, American Society for Microbiology. All Rights Reserved.





> The serotype Typhimurium phage types DT2 and DT99 are frequently isolated from pigeons, where they cause paratyphoid (5), but are rarely isolated from other bird or mammalian species (27). On this basis, the existence of a serotype Typhimurium “pigeon type” has been proposed....


Basically, use good hygiene methods, washing hands (especially before touching one's face, and the like), etc. 

(No comment on Synolux -- haven't used it).

Larry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jo, sorry I can't advise you on Synulox because we have never used it but other members have and can advise you.

I'm attaching a link to Wikipedia's description of Synulox and I'm not sure but it doesn't sound like what you need.

How many doses of Synulox has Vivi had so far?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synulox


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Jo, sorry I can't advise you on Synulox because we have never used it but other members have and can advise you...


Hi Maggie!

Yes, I read the Wikipedia page about the Synulox earlier... (Sounded weird to me, too)

She's had two doses so far; the morning and the evening ones.

Ah, I hope it works! I asked for Baytril several times. Hopefully someone who has experience with it will come here soon to give some more info! 

It was mentioned her at PT by at least Cynthia. I'll search for more info...

Thanks!

Jo/Ippychick


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Hello Ippychick,
> 
> Since you seemed to want extra verifiaction and reassurance, I decided to look up an actual quote for you, and found a small surprise at this link........



Hi Larry,

Oh wow! That was some interesting info, *thanks* for that! 

I will keep up the (extra-) good hygiene, just in case... But it's still good to know, even if it was 'safe'. 

Hopefully this medication will work~ if I had waited a few more hours, I would've got the meds you sent! But hoping for the best anyway!

Jo


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Ippychick,

You did receive the meds I sent, right, from what I understand?

The cipro is the human-designated version of Batril. Cipro was originally Ciprobay from Bayer, and Baytril from Bayer (Leverkusen) also. Remember the Bayer aspirin bottles. Actually, Aspirin was originally a Bayer trademark also (unless I'm getting senile).

Reti on PT once said that (at their clinic) you treat for the disease, os cipro should work in the place of Baytril.

I was also told you can give both cipro and cotrim simultaneously.

I'm not going to go against a vet, obviously, but you do have the other meds.

My docs have had me stop an antibiotic after a day or so, instead of holding to the full course of treatment, and switch to another antibiotic. See what the others on the forum think about switching. 

It's possible your vet knows something we don't, since he handled the pigeon.

About him advising to put the bird down, it may be his experience that unless someone is aggressively determined to fight for an animal's life, and put in a lot of continuous effort, that any attempts to save the animal merely prolongs the torture of the animal before it dies because the human rescuer has gotten tired of the project. Anyone who is uncertain or easily persuaded may not have the necessary stick-to-it-tiveness. So, his advice may be good for the animal in that case. Would you like to be in intensive care where the nurses are negligent?

i once had to check into a hospital overnight before a more or less routine bronchoscopy. Nurses stood in the doorway all night long, smoking cigarettes in spite of my lung diseases, and kept me awake by taking my temp and blood pressure every two hours. This was during the days of promoting racial equality by giving jobs to persons even if they weren't qualified. I never got upset about it or complained; it was part of the culture back then and more or less accepted behavior.

Larry 



Larry


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Hello Ippychick,
> 
> You did receive the meds I sent, right, from what I understand?
> 
> The cipro is the human-designated version of Batril. Cipro was originally Ciprobay from Bayer, and Baytril from Bayer (Leverkusen) also........


Larry,

Yes, you understood right~ I DID receive the meds you sent! THANK YOU! They came only some hours after I had got the meds from the vet. 

The vet who saw the bird~ I wouldn't trust my life (or any animal's) in her hands. The first time I saw her, she looked at the bird and then said nothing could be done. She said the bird should also be put down, because it can't walk properly. She didn't have that "let's see what we can do to save this animal" kind of attitude.

I, instead, am a person who'll do everything until the very end. I also know many vets want to put animals down easily ~ even if they suffered from something treatable, like diabetes ~ so I was prepared for that (even with human doctors I have the same attitude; they're just people and don't know it all, even if they thought so in many cases).

When I talked to her on the phone, she was reluctant to give me the medication ~ I thought to myself (without saying out loud to her) "What is your problem, you wanted to kill this bird anyway, so why are you so worried of giving her some medication". 

I mean, I just didn't see what the problem was, because this woman was not after saving this bird's life in the first place, but ending it ~ so even if a wrong medication would kill/hurt the bird, atleast it would've happened by trying something. And she didn't even know about the "pigeon Salmonellosis", that it's not contagious. 

So, you're right, Larry. I wouldn't & didn't trust the vet, and that's why I asked for the Baytril straight way, with no success though. 

So you think I should change the medication now? 

The one I have is liquid, and only lasts for the 10 days I need to give it to her. So I can't have a break in between, unless if I do swap the meds for sure. I'm sure it's no prob to change it, if that's what we decide to do. 

The Cipro sounds good... 

Let's see if anyone else has something to say about this ~ if not, then maybe we should just make a decision? 

Jo


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, if you suspect Salmonella in the bird, Cipro should work well for that. 

Reti


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## Aias (Nov 9, 2006)

hi!
just wondering how vivi is doing?


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*::update::*

_Just to give an update;_

The same day I started the medication the vet gave Vivi started to feel much better! I mean I could see some improvement in her already on the same day, and it only got better day by day! This is also why I decided not to swap the medication, because it really seemed to be working!!

Vivi has been doing so good for many days now; she is flying around and following a lot, really active and awake. 

I don't know what happened the other day when she got so strange and so suddenly, and I guess there will never be a certain answer to it. 

She still has some problems with the other leg, and she's been wearing a 'support' in it, like some of you suggested. It has made her walk really good, and she's been walking like a 'real pigeon' for a longer time already. 

When the 'support' has been taken off though, she still crumbles the toes, which of course is not good... She's getting some physical therapy in the bad foot, so hopefully that'll help...

*Thanks again for the help & support ~ to everybody! *

Vivi says hello!!


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*An Update on Vivi*

Hi everyone!

It's been a while, hey? I've come to the forum every now and then to see what you guys are on to, but haven't posted in ages. 

Here's an update on Vivi, the little pigeon from the railway station;

She's been doing really good and healthy. Her other leg never healed, because it had been broken; she's learned to use it though, and can even run really fast when she wants to! 

I went on a holiday for a month, during which she was alone with my partner; when I got back she had got an idea they're a 'couple', so she's been quite angry when I've tried to touch her! She's after my partner all the time (ALL THE TIME), and has done a lot of cooing when he's around! Luckily she's very quiet though when she's alone with me!  

Vivi is not housebroken, BUT she's learned not to poop on certain areas!! She even sleeps in the bed with us (she has her own sleeping box there), and when she needs to take a poop she nicely walks to where it's ok to do! She's really come a long way, and especially with this pooping thing ~ been quite surprised about it, and it's great as we never wanted to keep her in a cage! So, I guess it's ok to say she's semi-housebroken?  

ALSO, she made an EGG this morning! There's no doubt about her sex anymore, hey? I always thought she was a girl, but after she started to be so 'dominating' with me I thought maybe it could be a boy. 

But yeah, the egg is in her sleeping box now, and I guess it's ok to leave there for a while? She seems to be doing fine; gets out of the box every now and then to collect leaves (etc) to build a nest with! She's a little quiet, but I guess it's just some post-first-egg-shock? She's eating and drinking, and seems fine overall.

Well, there was an update on Vivi for you! She & her egg send you many hellos! 

I hope you all are doing fine!!

Ippychick

(Here's a little video of Vivi)


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for providing such a welcome and positive update.

Vivi should lay a second egg and then she will start incubating them. As the eggs will both be infertile you can leave them under her until she decides they are not viable. Removing the eggs without replacing them with a boiled or plastic eggs could lead her to lay another clutch prematutrely and could deplete her calcium reserves.

If she doesn't take breaks from her nest one of you will have to slide a hand under her and cover the eggs so that she believes that she has been relieved by her mate.

Thanks to you Vivi has grown up to be an exceptional pigeon.

Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

What GREAT news and update about Vivi!!

LOL...I am NOT surprised that your partner has been chosen as "mate!"  

Squeaks thinks I am his and while I don't do nest duty, I still "supply" nesting materials in the form of thin shredded paper strips. By the time I'm finished, he has built quite a nest (with added feathers from him) under him! 

If you ever consider diapers for Vivi, our very own Boni Birds supplies "custom" made ones that have been the hit of the site! In fact, Bill's (nbdyuknow) Sophie, even laid an egg in hers!

Welcome back and please keep us posted!!

Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ippychick, Vivi looks wonderful. What a great job you have done saving this precious little pigeon. I loved the picture and video. I can tell she is spoiled rotten.  Nice to see someone else kissing their pigeon's head.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

LOL...I loved the video and your update. That's one lucky bird. 
Now that she has started laying, do make sure she has calcium.
Please, keep the updates coming.

I kiss my pigeons too. For a long time Sammy slept on a towel on my bed at night...that was until the dog arrived.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Vivi is a complete delight! Please do keep us updated and we would love more pictures/videos!

Terry


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Ah, thanks for your all nice comments!*  

Yes, indeed, Miss Vivi is spoiled rotten.....but it's good to know also other people kiss their pigeons and let them sleep on the bed!!  

We've given her some extra calcium now, so that's under control. 

Will there be a 2nd egg for sure, or maybe? 

I read somewhere it might be a good idea to give some olive oil for the bird, as that helps the egg come out easier? 

*Shi* - this whole 'mate' thing is so funny!  And is Squeaks' nest really nicely done? Vivi's nest making skills seem to be extremely poor so far, though she is carrying all that stuff into her box... The diapers; yeah, they might be worth trying! Just need to get used to the idea of them first!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

ippychick said:


> *Ah, thanks for your all nice comments!*
> 
> Yes, indeed, Miss Vivi is spoiled rotten.....but it's good to know also other people kiss their pigeons and let them sleep on the bed!!
> 
> ...


LOL...neat? no, 'fraid not...his basket is just his size and all the paper and feathers are "jumbled" together under him. SOMEWHERE in there, is his egg! Oh yes, and because, sometimes, his feeding dish is next to his basket, there will be seeds on the bottom too!

When he goes to mate mode, I pick up the whole "bundle," toss is out, wash the towel and start all over again...next time! 

Actually, the diapers are a godsend for those who have mostly "cage" free birds. Boni's are much less "intrusive" than the Flight Suits. Her diapers are made for each bird individually, you can choose a cute design and the material is cotton; half of a panty liner or "light day" pad is used as a "liner." Squeaks has no problem flapping his wings and running around.

Hugs and Scritches TO ALL

Shi & Squeaks


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What a wonderful update. The pic on the laptop is just great.
You did a wonderful job with this baby.

Reti


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

*Hi again!*

Vivi the pigeon did make two eggs, and after two weeks with nothing happening she gave up sitting on them! 

Weirdly enough, she went back to the mating mode immediately ~ is this normal?

This whole egg-business is so new to me; how does it really work? I mean, Vivi doesn't have a pigeon boyfriend, so the eggs will never become more than eggs. 

How fast is her 'egg cycle'; she'll be sitting on the eggs for about two weeks, so how quickly after that is she going to make the next eggs? Is there any breaks in between?

Must take a lot of calcium from her little body...  

Is it not good to have a single pigeon? I feel a little sorry for her now, because I fear she's gonna make some more eggs soon?! Hope not, for her own sake.  

Other than that; I hope you all are enjoying the sunny days! I went out with my bird yesterday, and it was just wonderful to enjoy the sun after all these dark months! Loved it.  

Ippychick & Vivi the pigeon


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, that is quite normal.

It is okay to have a single pigeon if you keep her company, you can always get another hen for company or a male pigeon.

As long as she is in love she will continue the cycle's. Normally they lay 5 to 10 days after mating. 

It is good you are allowing her to sit the eggs as long as possible, this helps get her calcium reserves up. Make sure to always give her grit or other calcium source.

If you are petting her on the back, that will also stimulate egg production. A high protein diet will increase the sex drive, increase of barley in the seed will diminish it.


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## ippychick (Sep 19, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Yes, that is quite normal.
> 
> It is okay to have a single pigeon if you keep her company, you can always get another hen for company or a male pigeon....


*Thank you, Trees Gray!*

YES, indeed, she's in love ~ with a human! So I guess that's why she's going to make more eggs soon!  

It's good to know about the barley and high-protein diet! She'll be getting plenty of barley from now on.  

She's been petted on the back a lot, so that's gonna stop from now on! Thanks for telling about that!

Yes, she gets extra calcium daily, and we let her sit on the eggs as long as she wants to ~ she's more calm that way, too. 

What comes to getting a friend for her ~ as soon as the situation allows another pigeon, it's definitely going to happen!  

Thanks for all the info, Trees Gray! Big, big help! 

Ippychick & Vivi


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You are very welcome!


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