# Seraphim genetics?



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Does anyone know what gene(s) cause the RR and RY to turn white in Seraphim? The reason I ask is because I have some satinettes that show a similar reaction. I'll get some pictures later, but something is causing their red wings (ash-red t-pattern) to lighten up with each moult. Not quite as dramatic as the Seraphim, but the dad to the babies is very close to appearing all white now. It isn't tiger grizzle, but something else. Any ideas?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Does anyone know what gene(s) cause the RR and RY to turn white in Seraphim? The reason I ask is because I have some satinettes that show a similar reaction. I'll get some pictures later, but something is causing their red wings (ash-red t-pattern) to lighten up with each moult. Not quite as dramatic as the Seraphim, but the dad to the babies is very close to appearing all white now. It isn't tiger grizzle, but something else. Any ideas?


*Hi Becky, First thing you have a recessive red gene at work here, In the Seraphin it comes from recessive red and yellow The white side breeds also have this effect they are recessive red and the wing shield turns white with the molt. I have put this into my race birds I now have race birds that are blue that throw me recessive reds that have this whiting effect. Reversion to White ,is associated with the reduced pigment reservoirs of resessive red pigeons,this is called Acromatosis.There are said to be two forms Natural and Artificial forms We see the natural form in recessive red birds the artificial form is done by plucking feathers of colored birds until the plucked feather comes in white.* .GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Interesting. I didn't realize whitesides started out normal colored, and got more white. I just thought they were always white  haha. 

I don't think that's the case with my frills though. Here is the daddy (who is also named George ). The first one is when I first got him, the next keep getting older. He's a 2 year old now. But hasn't changed much.

Baby George









June '08
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_cb4AeStpOZI/SERkRsRG2PI/AAAAAAAAA68/JoEPDJKCePs/s720/racers 074.jpg

Checks are disappearing
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_cb4AeStpOZI/SF66X_RsIQI/AAAAAAAABU8/httHGgNzot0/s720/George 003.jpg

Only a couple checks left, and his "eyebrow" is now solid white









I don't have any recent pictures of him, but all he has are those two faint red bars, the rest of him is white. I'll hopefully get pics of the kids tomorrow (the weather was miserable today). I can easily tell which one is the oldest because all three are in different stages of 'fading', with the oldest being the lightest, just like their daddy. Their mom is a typical blue t-check satinette. All three babies are also t-checks, the best I can tell. I'm guessing George was either a light check, or a sooty red bar.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Becky, Well I am glad that you posted a picture of GEORGE and that picture tells me that he infact is not a Satinette but is the old type of Oriental Frill the beak is much longer than that of the Satinette, and your birds can feed their young,true Satinettes can not and must have foster parents.I will be calling Anne Ellis the lady that produced the Seraphim as I have not heard from her in some time.she keeps the old style which she must cross back to the Seraphim In any event YOUR GEORGE with those faint red bars may in fact be anouter mutation That Anne may have interst in.* GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, mine are the old style Frills, not the show type, which is typical for droppers. However, 'satinette' is just a term for the coloration. Really my George isn't a Satinette in coloration since he doesn't have a colored tail to go with his saddle. I don't think he really applies to anything specific.

Now I'm off to take pics of the "George Juniors" haha


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Be aware that these pictures are not the greatest, especially those I took on the perches rather than in the light of the aviary. It's still very cloudy outside and even the flash doesn't help, so the birds don't look quite the same lightness/darkness as they do in person.

Here is the youngest of the 3, just recently weaned. He's a bit darker in person, but you can still see the signs of fading already (which surprised me). Still in the nest he looked almost like your typical ash-red t-pattern, almost to the point of me thinking he might be RR. All 3 babies started out that way.











Here is the middle child. He is lighter in person. I had a really tough time getting a good picture that was close to his color. He's somewhere in the middle of the youngest and the oldest as far as how much he has faded. All three pictures are of him.

























(ignore the mess, the perches aren't all the way up against the wall so they have a tendency to poop on it, haha)


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here is the oldest. The camera made him look just a bit darker. This one is pretty washed out in color - very close to his dad (but of course with more markings since he is a t-pattern).










Finally, here are the parents. Mom is the one inside the nestbox sitting on yet another clutch. Typical blue t-check satinettes. Because all the babies I've gotten out of George have been red, I'm assuming he is pure for it.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Becky, The first Seraphim that Anne Ellis raised came out of two birds that were colored but were carring the recessive red gene so the young got a double dose of RR.Now I know the she has to cross regular old frills with her Seraphim she calls these birds her AIM birds and then takes those AIM birds and cross them back to the Seraphim,to keep the Seraphim strain going.What has this to do with your birds that is the question? As I see it one or both of your birds could be from her AIM birds and the young that they produce need to be crossed back to a Seraphim.The AIM birds carry the RR gene and then when mated to a SERAPHIM those young carry a double dose of RR, that is how the Seraphim strain is kept alive. I think that Anne is a member here in Pigeon Talk,but not active. *, GEORGE


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Hello Becky,
Toy stencil, or some parts of the Ts complex, is what is causing the change of expression from juvenile to adult plumage in your OFs. 
Their mother has almost white chequering suggesting some Ts influence; some of the Ts combinations produce bronze bars or cheqs in the youngsters, this bronzing will moult out pinkish, whitish or may stay bronze, it will depend on which combination of Ts1, Ts2 or ts3 is present.
One of the youngsters does have an ash-coloured tail.
I don't know why "George's" wing shield is so pale-coloured.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I noticed on at least one of the babies, their ash tail looks as though it starts after where the tail spot would be on other satinettes.
You can faintly see the 'tail spot' on the last picture of the middle bird. You can tell the frill stencil is in them since they do resemble their mom a lot in how the center of the feather has faded. I still had no idea they would change so much from the nest to adult. These are the first satinettes/frill stencil babies I've ever had so I didn't know what to expect.

Either way, I think George and his offspring are very neat and pretty birds  Never seen anything quite like them.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, now I've seen some like them. Browsing around on the internet I found the Classic Old Frill Club's yahoo group, so I joined it. Found some pictures of very pretty ash-red laced satinettes. They look really similar to my oldest baby, only more show quality in the pattern.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Yes, they are nice birds Becky, very pretty too. Much nicer than the "modern-type" Oriental Frills.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well, now I've seen some like them. Browsing around on the internet I found the Classic Old Frill Club's yahoo group, so I joined it. Found some pictures of very pretty ash-red laced satinettes. They look really similar to my oldest baby, only more show quality in the pattern.


*Hi Becky,The Classic old frill yahoo group I think I will join that group. I have aways like old frills and I believe that they would give me much pleasure.*GEORGE


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