# Aust. Performing Tumblers - how to improve markings?



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I've attached some pictures of two almond cocks I've breed this season. I don't really know what a good almond looks like. Will know at the first show when I can see what the others are showing. I'm pretty happy with these two but wonder if anyone can suggest how I breed these two next season to increase the percentage of dark flecking on the shields. I've attached pictures of the mother for comparison. She was paired with my best red cock. He is a good bird with a great head and stance. The young look more like the hen (head shape) than the cock unfortunately. It believe that I have improved on the mothers markings with these two. I've been told she has a good base colour. I have kite, dark checker and red hens to use. I have her to use as well but only have red and deroy cocks (her sons) I have no kite cocks.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2091

Thanks,

John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Classic almond is a t pattern kite split for red which may include other modifiers at that point like dirty. So I would brews to kite. Almond fleck heavier as they age. Torts (kite grizzle) can produce black feathers in the shield around the bronze without any almond. George Simon said that classic almonds were actually grizzle also. I think that may be the best. I would work on getting a kite almond and go from there.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Logan,

I have a couple of kite hens. One will be good for showing. It looks like a black bird until you spread the wings. The other is covered in bronze and looks a bit messy. I don't have a recent picture of this bird but should be able to find one taken when it was younger. It still looks like this now although it is older. 

Thanks,

John


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I would use a bird like above. Nice bird. Like I just said in the other thread my main project is making a line of really nice kite and tort tipplers in dilute and non dilute; also giving me great red and yellow mottles. For future breeding for you I would cross your almond to a kite and during the same time whatever other kites you have I would start improving to be ready to cross back again. Planning for future improvements.

Just to note there are other almonds people breed other than kite, but generally it's kite across the board. Not really sure if people show others they probably wouldn't be in the same category I think.

Also your bird is dirty too. I think that is good in kites but haven't be able to make a direct comparison.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Logan What Goerge was saying is not true, Grizzle is a lightening factor and almond does that on its own, The whole point for Almond is to darken it up so putting grizzle in the mix is only good if your almonds are already too dark or if you are trying to achieve a better break of colour. Rudolph agrees that grizzle is not usually in the genotype needed to create the classic almond phenotype - - Just remember not to believe everything you read here.


They are showed in the same catergory, A blue cock carrying brown with almond can mimic the classical almond look but I have seen all sorts in the shows. 

Dirty is good for Almonds as it darkens the white areas to cream and deepens the bronze and rec red

John, this birds look spread? This will look different again on Almond but I like spread almonds. Hopefully it is only het spread that way you will get spread and no spread almond from them


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Evan, I'm a little offended. I never said I believed that. I simply said George Simon which seems to know a lot about genetics said that. *Take it for what you will.* don't tell me he is wrong tell him him he is wrong. Either way I did not say it was true or false. I simply was pointing out what he believed. Kite spreads do not come out looking like that. It is said to be very black with just a bronze haze over almost completely removing the effect.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Offended? I am not sure why. I just said that Goerge was not correct that grizzle is part of the Classic Almond Genotype. I told him the same thing on the thread he bought it up on I think... But If someting on here that is incorrect is being spread around then it's best to correct or explain before it gets spread futher.

Like I said, Grizzle can be good if you are wanting a light almond but thats not classical Almond. Spread on Almonds looks good too IMO but its also not classical Almond.

the bird on the right looks spread to me, John do you have a pic of the tail bar for clarification?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan,

Some pictures of the two kite hens attached. They look a bit scruffy at the moment. They are sisters and also sisters to the two almond cocks in the album #1. Do you think the bronzing on the head will moult out?

John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2097


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The tail looks spread too. Could be wrong as Logan seems sure spread kites don't look like this. apparently they are supposed to come out very black with just a bronze haize, It sounds like he hasn't bred any and is going on what he has heard so it could be spread for sure.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

The tail is different to the sister who clearly shows a tail bar. At one of our big shows last year (I didn't have birds to show then) I was talking to a Breeder with very good tumblers. As he was putting his birds in the show pens he explained things to me about every one. He had a kite hen that was black all over. There was no bronzing evident until he unfolded the wings. It was very impressive. This bird won it's class and then won best of the breed. 

My kites have checkering marks on their rumps and hips. I will show the sister this year but I know she is not so good. 

I need to work on a better kite. If this bird is spread and I put her with a blue bird would the young show the bronzing? 

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes the young would pick up bronzing and aslong as this bird is only het for spread you will get some non spread kites.

I have also seen spread kites as you describe - where you can only see the bronze when the wing is spread. But as we know kite, grizzle, pied and lots of those genes do vary a lot depending on other gene involved in the combos so nothing can be ascertained purely from looking at a picture.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Evan,

My son called the other night. He isn't that keen on pigeons but always asked how they are going. He said he saw birds flying out the airport way the other day.

John


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Print Tippler said:


> Classic almond is a t pattern kite split for red which may include other modifiers at that point like dirty. So I would brews to kite. Almond fleck heavier as they age. Torts (kite grizzle) can produce black feathers in the shield around the bronze without any almond. George Simon said that classic almonds were actually grizzle also. I think that may be the best. I would work on getting a kite almond and go from there.


*First, mating the young cocks to kite hens is the way to go. The gene pool for Almond does have grizzle in it and if one has the book "An Introduction to PIGEON SCIENCE" by Joseph W Quinn, on page 97 he points out the genes in the make up of almond. Here is the quote, "We have postulated the classical almond to have,in addition to kite(K) and T-pattern (CT), a single dose of recessive red, e//+ and grizzle, G//+ . Recessive red enriches the ground color expression, and grizzle delineates the flecks, producing neater and more contrasting stripes. The classical almond cock would then be formulated:St//+ , CT//CT , e//+ , G//+ , K//K. It should be easily seen that a mating of kite and an almond becomes complicated with these other necessary mutant modifiers." I must point out one more thing, that is as your Almond birds get older, they will become darker, and will lose the classic almond color, but the good news is they will still produce good almond young* GEORGE ps Almond is NOT GRIZZLE, but the do carry the grizzle gene in their make up.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

johnbt said:


> Logan,
> 
> I have a couple of kite hens. One will be good for showing. It looks like a black bird until you spread the wings. The other is covered in bronze and looks a bit messy. I don't have a recent picture of this bird but should be able to find one taken when it was younger. It still looks like this now although it is older.
> 
> ...


Hi John,mate your two Almond cocks to these two hens and see what they poduce you may be supprised the one with the bronze look may produce the best almonds, breed both hens and see what they give you. Good luck I wish you well in you quest. I believe you are on the right track. GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have read a lot of other sites and books and never seen grizzle included, Like I have said, grizzle is not needed on Almond as stipper breaks the colour without needing grizzle. Also grizzle would not be needed for someone trying to achieve dark almonds

I will suppply you with a few sources with differ from yours. I have also talked to an Almond breeder of short face tumblers, He has never had grizzle in his and they look "classic" to me

" http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/ALMONDALLELES.html

Almond (the mutation) can be added to almost anything. In fact, "classic" show almond is actually a *T-pattern check *bird that, in addition to almond, also carries a multitude of factors, including kite bronze, often recessive red, and *other darkening factors.* By the way, this "classic" color is only classic in the English Shortface Tumbler. It's never been the only phenotype of almond allowed in Modenas (Magnani) nor in the Stipper (from whence almond got its genetic symbol St.) You can have blue bar almonds, ash-red red check almonds, brown almonds, ash-red indigo almonds, spread almonds, and that classic "hidden" almond - DeRoy , i.e., an almond recessive red. "

" http://mumtazticloft.com/a_ComparingAlmondPigeonsToBrokenBeerBottles.asp

However, to produce the "classic-almond" appearance, other genetic units must be included into the genetic make-up (genotype) of almond birds. Kite-bronzing, recessive red, spread and T-pattern checkering are said to enhance almond. In other words, we must include things that affect the end result or we simply wind-up with a blue and white pigeon. "Classic-almond" is an assembly of traits, not just one."

I am not saying to use grizzle would be wrong, It would lighten what we are trying to get darker though. Lastly, Look at the first bird in this link. No grizzle in the genotype but it is quite light in colour. To add grizzle to this bird would ruin it IMO -
St//+, CT//CT, e//+, K//+, b//+, S//+
CLASSIC ALMOND PHENOTYPE 

http://www.falconlofts.com/rare_colored_birds.html 

John - I would say best to leave it out if its not really neccesary


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

A bronze colored Bird Would be a great bird to use on almond. It helps to keep the good almond coloring going. Not letting it get to light. And a person should wait until after the FIRST moult to see an improved color. Almond If I remember right should have THREE colors And That depth of color On Good marked Almonds Does darken with age Making them Good for breeding Bad for showing. Where grizzle To almond Would upset the desired breeding idea unless closley watched and controled. And depending on SOME Kites It would lighten the almonds. So a better marked kite I think would be prefured. But Any decent marked Bronze would be a great asset


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. I have to be careful also that whatever birds I bred with will help me improve my birds to the standard. I will show both these birds and see if one is better than the other. I included a picture of the father that I think is a nice bird. The young seem to at this stage have a head shape more like the hen than the cock. I'd be very happy with an almond that had the stance and look of the cock. Looking forward to breeding with these young cocks so that I can get a couple of almond hens as well. I'll try and attached a pdf that explains the show stand for almond. I can't work out how to attached a pdf (1 page scan of a document)?


John

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2103


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Australian Fancy Pigeons – Colour Standard for Long Faced Tumblers (same as for ATP’s).

Almond:

(Any pigment – T Pattern – Almond Factor)

Almond is a factor which alters or modifies any colour that it is introduced into by causing flecks of various colours to appear in the feathering over all parts of the bird. The base colour to strive for is a rich yellow brown or almond colour. The flecks vary in size and colour but should be even in distribution. There must be at least three (3) colours on the bird. Flecking is usually more predominant on the head, neck and flights, but if on every feather of the bird, so much the better. Each feather of the primaries and secondaries should have three colours in the patches. The even distribution of the three or more colours throughout the bird is called break. Perfection would be the same amount of break on each feather. The more break and the better the distribution, the better the colour of the Almond.

John


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