# Strange colored blue-checked bird



## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Hello to all in this forum. It has been a long time since I have posted, although I have read a lot of the forum. I have been very busy with my blog, trying to help Mike Huckabee win the Republican nomination for President. Since that seems to be lost, at least for this election, I have a bit more time to visit more. I say all of this, just to let you guys know that I have still been around. I would like to ask a question about a new bird I have acquired.

The bird is a dark blue-checked bird that is almost solid colored on it's back. I believe that is called a spread factor. The question I have is about it's flight feathers. They are a very dark brown or black, not sure what to call it. It is a very different looking bird and so dark, I have named it *****. I will try to post pictures as soon as I have them. Any ideas that come to mind, without actually seeing the bird?

It is good to be talking to you folks again.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Might be a dark grizzle. You have homers right if I remember.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

re lee said:


> Might be a dark grizzle. You have homers right if I remember.


Yes, I do have homers. I do not race them, but I do enjoy watching them fly. I will try to get a picture of the bird as soon as I can.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

*Here are the pictures*

Okay, folks. I finally managed to get a few pictures of *****. For some reason, this bird seems to be unusally shy. They certainly are not the best pictures I have ever taken, but you should be able to get an idea of what the bird looks like and of the colors. Let me know what you folks think it is.

***** 1

***** 2

***** 4

***** 5

***** 6

***** 7

***** 8

***** 9


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## 1981 (Aug 9, 2006)

its a dark check


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Well I think that you have a bird that is carring the INDIGO factor this factor can express it self in many ways that is it can be so slight that most people will not even know that is there. However it also can be very strong and in that case racing people would call it a chocolate, while show people would call it an indigo. You must understand that we are talking about a genetic factor that is not a color but instead a factor that has an effect on color.If you have a true black spread pigeon of the of the other sex mate it to this bird and you get a youngester that is an ANDALUSIAN then we could be sure that this bird is in fact an indigo as the indigo factor and the black spread factor will produce ANDALUSIAN. .GEORGE


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

@1981
It certainly is a dark check.  It is a very unusual one, to say the least.

@George
I will have to do some research on Indigo and see what I can come up with. Is that what is causing the flights to be the brown color?


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

I have a couple very like that, they are dark cheg, busschearts,


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

DynaBMan said:


> @1981
> It certainly is a dark check.  It is a very unusual one, to say the least.
> 
> @George
> I will have to do some research on Indigo and see what I can come up with. Is that what is causing the flights to be the brown color?


 It can be differcult to realy be sure from a picture one realy needs to have the bird in hand. I have gone back to the picture and I feel that we have indigo there.I have about 10 Indigo's and they all have that chocolate brown color it is so strong on some it looks like someone smeared a CHOCOLATE HERSEY BAR on the bird so you can see why the race guys call them chocolates.Remember geneticly its a factor and not a color,its a factor that effects color. .GEORGE


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

george simon said:


> It can be differcult to realy be sure from a picture one realy needs to have the bird in hand. I have gone back to the picture and I feel that we have indigo there.I have about 10 Indigo's and they all have that chocolate brown color it is so strong on some it looks like someone smeared a CHOCOLATE HERSEY BAR on the bird so you can see why the race guys call them chocolates.Remember geneticly its a factor and not a color,its a factor that effects color. .GEORGE


I have been trying to research indigo and I may need some clarification on the factor. The articles and pictures I have seen lead me to believe that a bird carrying indigo will have a lot of "brown" showing up in the checks and in the bars. It appears that ***** has the "brown" only on her flights and the rest of the checks looks as if she has the spread factor. George, do you have pictures available of your indigo birds? If so, would you care to share them? I would be interested in seeing what they look like.

Thanks for all your help and advice.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Is there any of the bronzing color under the under side of the wing If so isnt this kite colored.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

re lee said:


> Is there any of the bronzing color under the under side of the wing If so isnt this kite colored.


I can't answer that question, since I have only had the bird in my hands once. From what I have researched online and from a reply from the Slobberknocker forums, I am beginning to lean towards kite. I have tried to find good pictures of kite colored birds, but I have been unable to do so. I am still looking.


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## first flight (Apr 15, 2008)

*to me...*

to me it sounds like you just have a cool colored bird.


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## David Ey (Dec 31, 2007)

It's remarkable how much those birds look alike.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I have just checked and ***** has no bronze tint on the bottom of his wings. I say his because from watching his behavior, I am positive it is a male. I have a couple more pictures that I will post later tonight, but my camera went dead and I have the batteries charging now. The pictures are of his wings, spread open. Maybe that will help clarify it.

You are right, First Flight. It is one cool colored bird.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

DynaBMan said:


> I have been trying to research indigo and I may need some clarification on the factor. The articles and pictures I have seen lead me to believe that a bird carrying indigo will have a lot of "brown" showing up in the checks and in the bars. It appears that ***** has the "brown" only on her flights and the rest of the checks looks as if she has the spread factor. George, do you have pictures available of your indigo birds? If so, would you care to share them? I would be interested in seeing what they look like.
> 
> Thanks for all your help and advice.


 DYNABMAN, I have about 10 INDIGO'S and they can have very intense chocolate look and I have some that hardly show it. There have been some later posts that think it could be a kite factor that is very possible. I will try to get some pictures later this week. I have a homozygous or pure Indigo and if you saw the color of this bird you and most others would say its a red check,but in fact it is a bird that got the indigo gene from both his parents i bred to get one so that I could mate him to a ANDALUSIAN which is another form of indigo.I best stop now as I don't want to confuse you with all this genetic talk. ..........GEORGE


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

*Wing pictures*

Okay, here are the pictures of *****'s wings that I promised.

Wing 1

Wing 2


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

Not to hijack this thread but I was wondering if 3 of my cocks are indigo. Here are their pics...

Shadow with his 2 babies...









Splash showing off one of his eggs..









Eagle sitting on his eggs....


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I am no expert on the colors, that is why I asked my own question. However, I will say that those three birds are very nice looking. What are they mated to? It will be interesting to see what the young ones look like. Don't worry about hijacking my thread and thanks for sharing.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Well, it appears that ***** is a very fast mover. From all indications, he is trying to mate with Squeaky. She is a red-checked hen. You can see her picture at the link below. It might be interesting to see how the two colors, along with the bronze kite color, interact with each other.

Squeaky


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## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

DynaBMan said:


> I am no expert on the colors, that is why I asked my own question. However, I will say that those three birds are very nice looking. What are they mated to? It will be interesting to see what the young ones look like. Don't worry about hijacking my thread and thanks for sharing.


Thanks.. they all have a checker as a mate.
Shadow's babies looks like they are going to be checkers. The other 2 are still sitting on eggs.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

george simon said:


> DYNABMAN, I have about 10 INDIGO'S and they can have very intense chocolate look and I have some that hardly show it. There have been some later posts that think it could be a kite factor that is very possible. I will try to get some pictures later this week. I have a homozygous or pure Indigo and if you saw the color of this bird you and most others would say its a red check,but in fact it is a bird that got the indigo gene from both his parents i bred to get one so that I could mate him to a ANDALUSIAN which is another form of indigo.I best stop now as I don't want to confuse you with all this genetic talk. ..........GEORGE


Actually I would love to see pics of all your birds with details about each one's genetics  That would be very helpful for learning!  So, I am enjoying reading the color talk in this thread.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

DynaBMan said:


> Well, it appears that ***** is a very fast mover. From all indications, he is trying to mate with Squeaky. She is a red-checked hen. You can see her picture at the link below. It might be interesting to see how the two colors, along with the bronze kite color, interact with each other.
> 
> Squeaky


That is a pretty bird. I have a squeaker I think is going to be like that. When it is all full feathered I guess I will have to post pics and ask people about her color for sure.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I usually get a couple of babies with the color that's in Eze's birds, but after they moult, it goes away and they wind up being just dark checks or black without the little bronze/brown colors.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Most call it black check*

It is blue genetically with T Pattern or smoky factor.

It does not have spread factor or it would be all black.

Indigo either looks like ash red or silvery blue.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Not indigo*



ezemaxima said:


> Not to hijack this thread but I was wondering if 3 of my cocks are indigo. Here are their pics...
> 
> Shadow with his 2 babies...
> 
> ...



More black checks with some piebald markings.

I will try to post some Indigo pictures.

Bill


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> It is blue genetically with T Pattern or smoky factor.
> 
> It does not have spread factor or it would be all black.
> 
> ...


What intrigues me is the brown flights. It makes for a very unusual looking bird. Is that the smoky pattern?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yup George, you got it*



george simon said:


> DYNABMAN, I have about 10 INDIGO'S and they can have very intense chocolate look and I have some that hardly show it. There have been some later posts that think it could be a kite factor that is very possible. I will try to get some pictures later this week. I have a homozygous or pure Indigo and if you saw the color of this bird you and most others would say its a red check,but in fact it is a bird that got the indigo gene from both his parents i bred to get one so that I could mate him to a ANDALUSIAN which is another form of indigo.I best stop now as I don't want to confuse you with all this genetic talk. ..........GEORGE


If you breed the red looking ones to black, you should get all andalusian, as the reds are homozygous indigo and nearly impossible to distinguish from ash red. This is one of those rare cases where the homozygous form is completely different from the heterozygous one. Grizzle is also like this.



Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*No, not smokey*



DynaBMan said:


> What intrigues me is the brown flights. It makes for a very unusual looking bird. Is that the smoky pattern?


I made a booboo when I included smokey. I checked the book on this and they are just blue checks with T pattern added which makes a blue black bird. It is the highest or most dominant of all blue patterns. In order, they are T Pattern, Check, Bar, Barless.

The bronzing in the flights is usually some form of bronze and probably not kite as kite normally will present itself in the shield area of the wing as well.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Should be all ash reds*



DynaBMan said:


> Well, it appears that ***** is a very fast mover. From all indications, he is trying to mate with Squeaky. She is a red-checked hen. You can see her picture at the link below. It might be interesting to see how the two colors, along with the bronze kite color, interact with each other.
> 
> Squeaky


Ash red is dominant to everything else and since the hen can carry nothing else (well almost) the young should be all ash reds like mom.

Bill


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Ash red is dominant to everything else and since the hen can carry nothing else (well almost) the young should be all ash reds like mom.
> 
> Bill


I realize this discussion could wander all over the place, but according to Slobberknocker's color chart, these babies could be red, blue, or brown.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Which babies do you mean?*



DynaBMan said:


> I realize this discussion could wander all over the place, but according to Slobberknocker's color chart, these babies could be red, blue, or brown.



Ash red is dominant. It can carry other factors but pure ash red to anything makes ash red. Ash red cocks can carry blue and dilute, if they are split to blue they have black flecks on them, usually in flights and tail.

Bill


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

DynaBMan said:


> Hello to all in this forum. It has been a long time since I have posted, although I have read a lot of the forum. I have been very busy with my blog, trying to help Mike Huckabee win the Republican nomination for President. Since that seems to be lost, at least for this election, I have a bit more time to visit more. I say all of this, just to let you guys know that I have still been around. I would like to ask a question about a new bird I have acquired.
> 
> The bird is a dark blue-checked bird that is almost solid colored on it's back. I believe that is called a spread factor. The question I have is about it's flight feathers. They are a very dark brown or black, not sure what to call it. It is a very different looking bird and so dark, I have named it *****. I will try to post pictures as soon as I have them. Any ideas that come to mind, without actually seeing the bird?
> 
> It is good to be talking to you folks again.


just wanted to say "your take" is great!


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

It was suggested to me over the weekend that ***** may be a recessive opal. However, looking at different pictures of recessive opal birds and doing some reading, I see no reason to believe that is the case. I was under the impression that recessive opal birds would not be so dark colored.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

spirit wings said:


> just wanted to say "your take" is great!


Thanks for saying so. I have really put a lot of work into making a blog that people would want to read, even if they didn't agree with everything I have to say. If you will look now, I have added a page for my pigeons and Cherokee, our Labrador/Saint Bernard cross puppy. I have also revised my post about pigeons that was originally published on my Opera blog and put it up on the Wordpress blog. I am glad you enjoyed reading.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*definately not dominant opal*



DynaBMan said:


> It was suggested to me over the weekend that ***** may be a recessive opal. However, looking at different pictures of recessive opal birds and doing some reading, I see no reason to believe that is the case. I was under the impression that recessive opal birds would not be so dark colored.


Opal is a sky blue with white bars or white markings in the wings and not pied white. It is like bronze stencil in German Toys, which have white bars and white spangle. In good birds, the bronze does not show, only the white.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Ash red is dominant to everything else and since the hen can carry nothing else (well almost) the young should be all ash reds like mom.
> 
> Bill


 HI BILL, Not so fast,if you mate a red hen to a blue cock you can get red cock young but the hens in that mating will be blue.This called a sex linked mating geneticly the hen carries only one color gene and that is the color you see, she will pass this color gene to her sons while the blue cock carries two color genes,in his case both are blue, he gives his genes to the young cock and young hen. The young cock gets a red gene and a blue gene, red being dominant this makes the young cock red but because he also got a blue gene he can pass this blue to his young hens.The only time you could get a pair of red young from this mating is if both the young are cocks.I currently have a pair of red checks mated,he carries blue as a second color,he also carries dilute so what will I get from this pair, reds, yellows,blues,and silver-duns. The yellows,blues and the silver duns, are ALWAYS hens. .GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*George, you are right again*



george simon said:


> HI BILL, Not so fast,if you mate a red hen to a blue cock you can get red cock young but the hens in that mating will be blue.This called a sex linked mating geneticly the hen carries only one color gene and that is the color you see, she will pass this color gene to her sons while the blue cock carries two color genes,in his case both are blue, he gives his genes to the young cock and young hen. The young cock gets a red gene and a blue gene, red being dominant this makes the young cock red but because he also got a blue gene he can pass this blue to his young hens.The only time you could get a pair of red young from this mating is if both the young are cocks.I currently have a pair of red checks mated,he carries blue as a second color,he also carries dilute so what will I get from this pair, reds, yellows,blues,and silver-duns. The yellows,blues and the silver duns, are ALWAYS hens. .GEORGE



I did not think that ash red was sex-linked but I checked the Quinn book and of course you are right. The fact that it is dominant to blue had me confused. Maybe it should be called equal to blue. If Dr Hollander were still alive, I'd argue this point with him. He is responsible for the naming of the color in the first place as it was originally called domimant red.

I realized that ash red cocks could carry blue and dilute as I have seen this in breeding and of course, read it in the Quinn book. I never paid much attention to ash red and have had few birds that were ash red. I much preferred recessive red and yellow but I know that there are some interesting birds in the ash red colorations and I'm stuck with some anyway. Might as well make the best of it.

My genetics skills will improve as I play with this flock of rollers. I haven't paid attention in a few years but I am now and I love the genetics game. There are very many little tricks that we can learn and predict what we will get and so on. Fun stuff.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

jbangelfish said:


> Opal is a sky blue with white bars or white markings in the wings and not pied white. It is like bronze stencil in German Toys, which have white bars and white spangle. In good birds, the bronze does not show, only the white.
> 
> Bill


Opel is not allways bared. Opel being the color pattern. A bird can be a T patterned opel or broken T pattern bird. Bared white bar opels you fing less But you see many more opel colored birds. This bird however is not opel. More Kite. Or bronzing from say a black background. Ash red however might be masked One thing for sure it is a pigeon. Kite will show on the underside of the wing also. Hens most often are split for the color they show. where cocks are not.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

I am having an email conversation with Tom Barnhart and he says ***** is a recessive Opal. He is going by the pinkish-brownish tint of the wings and the lightness of the tail and tail bar.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*What?*



DynaBMan said:


> I am having an email conversation with Tom Barnhart and he says ***** is a recessive Opal. He is going by the pinkish-brownish tint of the wings and the lightness of the tail and tail bar.



Smokey factor lightens the dark areas and darkens the light areas. My guess is that the bird has smokey factor and T pattern and maybe some bronze such as kite.

The outer two tail feathers of blue pigeons, are outlined in white. When they have smokey factor it becomes blue.

George will correct me if I am wrong.

Bill


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Smokey factor lightens the dark areas and darkens the light areas. My guess is that the bird has smokey factor and T pattern and maybe some bronze such as kite.
> 
> The outer two tail feathers of blue pigeons, are outlined in white. When they have smokey factor it becomes blue.
> 
> ...


Thanks for trying to figure this all out, Bill. I honestly don't know what color ***** has in his genetics, but he is a handsome bird and it should be interesting to see his babies.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*He is a handsome bird*



DynaBMan said:


> Thanks for trying to figure this all out, Bill. I honestly don't know what color ***** has in his genetics, but he is a handsome bird and it should be interesting to see his babies.


I checked some photos in the encyclopedia of pigeon breeds by W. Levi and there are photos of dominant and recessive opal birds. As I thought, they have alot of bronze when they don't show white bars or white spangle etc. They are certainly beautiful birds but the bronze comes through in very definate patterns, replacing black bars or checks with bronze. A very pretty effect.

Think of a blue bird with very distinctive brown patterns on the wing where you would normally see black. It is very attractive but they are not nearly as dark colored as your bird.

Bill


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> I checked some photos in the encyclopedia of pigeon breeds by W. Levi and there are photos of dominant and recessive opal birds. As I thought, they have alot of bronze when they don't show white bars or white spangle etc. They are certainly beautiful birds but the bronze comes through in very definate patterns, replacing black bars or checks with bronze. A very pretty effect.
> 
> Think of a blue bird with very distinctive brown patterns on the wing where you would normally see black. It is very attractive but they are not nearly as dark colored as your bird.
> 
> Bill


You are echoing what I was thinking, but I really don't know much about all of this. From what I have seen, even recessive opal birds are fairly light colored and as you said, ***** is very dark.


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## DynaBMan (Jun 15, 2006)

Bill (and anyone else who is interested),

There is a good explanation about opal and some good pictures at the link below.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/recopal.html


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Interesting pics*



DynaBMan said:


> Bill (and anyone else who is interested),
> 
> There is a good explanation about opal and some good pictures at the link below.
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/recopal.html



I was actually surprised to see how many variations that there are. That's what makes genetics in pigeons so interesting. There were some surprisingly dark birds as well but the bronzing from the opal is normally quite dinstinct. A few of them, I'm not sure what made them opal. As stated by someone, there were very few that had the white as opposed to the bronze. The opals and white bar types that I've had, we always tried to keep them pure white and avoid the bronze. Either can be very pretty.

Bill


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