# Milk Thistle - PLEASE ADVISE



## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

PLEASE ADVISE on how many cc's of milk thistle oil to administer to a bird apx 355g. I've tried online conversions but experience is valued. The bird has fat liver plus liver damage from meds. I wouldn't like the bird harmed. 
I have oral syringes that are the typical type given out at the vet. Advice on the line of measurement for this syringe type is useful. I also have an eyedropper. The calculation breaks down to apx 25mg, daily. Is this once a day? Several times? I've heard fantastic things about milk thistle. I could really, really use help. I want him to LIVE.
Thanks!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Robin... why do you think Pancake has fatty liver and damage from antibiotics?


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

Pancake had meds that worked. However, he has had green poo with yellow urates since about a month after ending his course. I gave him b vitamins then stopped because of potential for poisoning and checked the poo. Still green. He's anorexic on pellets so I have to give him seed (from whole foods bins... Mixed grains, fresh and organic. He is lazy and I take him exercising. He has fat lipoma which is receding so his L carnitine routine is lesser. 
I know milk thistle treats this so I ordered good pure milk thistle from Puritans Pride without alcohol. 
On a good note, he shot out new primary feathers rapidly behind my back and can kind of fly up onto 2.5-3' things. 
He has a new wife he loves. She's black and a non releasable re oller. 
He's going to be more active soon but in absence of pellets, less L carnitine, a fat lipoma, green poo, long course of antibiotics, I just assumed that he needs it. 
His water is boiled and fresh. I don't have time for crazy veg diet force feedings, cannot look at him.anorexic denying pellets he previously loved and inactive birds on seed diets are prone.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

And you should not force feed him. T*he pellets do give pigeons runny droppings.* Personally, I hate pellets and do not use them. 
Pancake and wife need a pigeon seed mix with the protein at 15%. They need red grit and a calcium supplement with vitamin D3 .
If he has some yellow in his droppings, he probably had developed a internal canker infection.
I don't think he has fatty liver or damage from antibiotics at all. I do know you can get the food and grit they need from Tradewinds in Tacoma. I realize that is a long way for you and if you call them, maybe they can tell you a place that is closer.
I have an account of the way you chase him around the apartment and force him to exercise. The only thing that will do is emotionally harm him and cause him to be fearful of you. As he can't fly, I'm not understanding just what you expect from him. From all I know about Pancake, his behavior is perfectly normal for a disabled pigeon.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*DETOX LIVER: Our wildlife rehabber has used milk thistle seed for rehabbing birds that she suspects may have a toxic liver.

She usually crushes the whole seeds and sprinkles just a tiny bit over the bird/pigeon seed. Some people use turmeric, but I have never used that one myself on birds, only on humans.*


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Skyeking said:


> *DETOX LIVER: Our wildlife rehabber has used milk thistle seed for rehabbing birds that she suspects may have a toxic liver.
> 
> She usually crushes the whole seeds and sprinkles just a tiny bit over the bird/pigeon seed. Some people use turmeric, but I have never used that one myself on birds, only on humans.*



I promise you...this bird does not have toxic liver.


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

His milk thistle appears to be harmless after on line review, he gets both seeds and pellets. He gets vitamin supplements and I'm ordering that stuff from Foys with d3 and calcium. His uva uvb bulb broke. I'll get him more fresh veggies tomorrow. He LOVES running down the hall and does it FAST, now. So he doesn't get fat. Pants on the way in a week with leashes. So we can eat in public places, together.


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

The stuff is from a company called Puritan's Pride. He takes it well. Just a few drops. No harm done. It's good for all.


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

And he's arguing and once again devouring his pellets. Don't know why.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

PomboLover said:


> And he's arguing and once again devouring his pellets. Don't know why.


*It sounds like he is feeling better.*


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad hes feeling better and eating well.


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

Pancake's doo-doo's are looking more brown, daily. He is mixing his seed, pellets, occasional fresh veggies, vitamineral, winsmore, ACV for food. He has grit and I can get him some more red grit over at Portage Bay Farms where they sold Picki to me. He doesn't like the gray grit. He had calcium gluconate for a long time but I'm going to order that stuff from Foy's with D3 and calcium in it as suggested. He gets his pants tomorrow and I'll take him out for red grit. He might be over vitamined. 
His seed mix is great: split peas, some brown rice, millet, milo? barley hearts, wheat hearts, groats, flaxseed, sprouted black lentils, groats, tiny bit of corn, raw sunflower hulled seeds. I made the mix and he picks out what he wants, generally leaving the peas. I mix it up with vitamineral powder and leave grit in his cage. His UVA/UVB bulb broke for the third time. Hopefully he gets enough D3 but he needs calcium ASAP. 
He still gets L-Carnitine and milk thistle. He seems happy, active and tomorrow he gets his bird diapers so he and his girlfriend can go on walks. We even have an animal carrier, now. He has been friendlier and we've had matches where he wants to wing slap, bite, chase and sit next to me lasting for two hours. He likes sleeping on the foot of my bed. His swelling is nearly gone. He likes jumping off of me and flying down to the ground. He has also been approved by the manager above my manager as a therapy pet. I wrote a letter refusing to leave him though threatened again and again and again. He's getting new tubes (HVAC) that will suspend from higher points in the ceiling where he can sit and glare at me and he enjoys hopping up to his crawl ladder on his own. 
I love fighting with him playing wing slap. We spent two hours on Friday night with him beating on me and biting me.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You may be playing, but he isn't. When they wing slap or bite, they want to be left alone. To go back and forth with him is not good.


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

*Probably right but he was asking for it!*



Jay3 said:


> You may be playing, but he isn't. When they wing slap or bite, they want to be left alone. To go back and forth with him is not good.


He charged me like a bull, sitting making eye contact with me on my bed, over and over and over again. He just sat there going back and forth with me like a dog does for around 2 hours. I was like, "Pancake's coming around and playing! It's nice to see him finally socializing like birds do!" 

I don't deliberately sit with him and enrage him for long periods of time, testing his anger. It was just a moment in time. He seemed as though he was playing. He even crawled up to sleep next to me on the bed when we were through. 

I've seen the birds outside all doing wing slaps together in the flock. It's rare... but it's absolutely hilarious. They've run at each other in front of my window for an hour at a time, all beating each other with their wings. Chasing one in front of the other with their beaks at the skull. Some of the aggressive males will sit fighting for a long period - maybe for territory over a female. They've done it for several days - like my first rescue Pombo always fights with another male I named Ruby with red eyes. 

They also run with their wings outstretched once a fledge is in the pack... when I throw seed or 9 grain bread, they'll all start running with outstretched wings. Even the seniors. They'll spread and run in a huge flock. It's absolutely hilarious. 

Pancakes mostly so grossly depressed in here, quiet... it's fun to see him charging around. I wish I could have another male adult for him to go back and forth with to keep the mood up. I hate seeing just a head in a box that doesn't seem enthusiastic.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Also, in regards to the seed mix, pigeons should only get 2% fat containing seeds in the whole mix. It is hard on their liver if there are too many fat containing seeds, like safflower, sunflower seeds, etc. A good pigeon mix will do him well. *


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

*Re: Fatty seeds*



Skyeking said:


> *Also, in regards to the seed mix, pigeons should only get 2% fat containing seeds in the whole mix. It is hard on their liver if there are too many fat containing seeds, like safflower, sunflower seeds, etc. A good pigeon mix will do him well. *


Thank you. You're right and I appreciate you looking after my pijjies. I leave the corn at less than 10%, I have given Pancake the sunflower seeds in the raw a couple of time as treats, he mostly eats the pellets, milo, groats, millet, rice, peas, sprouted lentils, barley, flax and wheat berries. 

He gets the sprouted lentils instead of non-sprouted because they're high in methionine which helps his aminos in his l-Carnitine balance with his lysine in his peas. I wanted his feathers to grow back without stress bars. The methionine seems to have done something. Once I started with the methionine, the feathers grew back in much more rapidly in much better condition - honestly. He's still chopped up in the area from his fat lipoma. The feathers there came in just GROSS, initially. 

I'll be shopping again. His protein is high but he does eat his pellets. He seems happy. As soon as the postal guy gets here with his new flightsuit, we'll enjoy some outdoor time. I can't wait to see him happy socializing a little in the "wild" around other gray people. I feel so sorry for the raggedy beast. He's my best friend.


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## PomboLover (Aug 1, 2015)

Browner doo doo every day. Pancake's on his way to recovery. At last, to graze in the street. When will USPS be here with my delivery so I can leave?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad to hear Pancake is doing better.


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