# Windy



## Camrron

This is a pic of Windy.


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## TAWhatley

And this is Buddy!

Terry


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## mr squeaks

You have TWO GREAT LOOKIN' PIJIES there, Cameron!

Bet they can make beautiful music together!  

I hope Windy continues to improve...


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## Pidgey

Windy's eyes actually look quite normal to me--they don't appear to be what I thought of as "dilated". What I'm seeing is a pigeon that's figured out what "the good life" is all about. Big time. It was probably the toughest thing she ever did--to keep her pupils from contracting when the vet shone the light in them.

Pidgey


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## vondutch

Adorable!


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## Camrron

Hey Thanks whoever cleaned up the mess I made so it all looks normal now. 

Well Pidgey, who knows. I only have two pigeons and they aren't the same eyeball-wise and Windy is definately on the dim side of vision after testing. Maybe she has just been squinting at me all this time, giving me that "who the heck are you" look. Anyway she is flying around the apartment tonight.
I will just keep her well fed for now and hope for the best.

Hey Shi,

When Buddy is in the same room I keep them separated by a cage but he has been doing this very wierd standin-tall tail-fanning and strut thing and now has a whole new vocabulary to go with it. The magic will have to wait till she can fight back though. He is so anxious it is hilarious.

Cameron


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## dekebrent

Cameron -- Very cute birds. I like how Buddy appears to be standing tall and posing for his picture.


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## Skyeking

Well, it is wonderful to finally see a picture of Buddy, before i can only guess what he looked like.

Buddy looks quite inquisitive as to what is going on, what a cutie! Thanks Terry.

Great picture of Windy, too!

Thanks for sharing.


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## mr squeaks

Camrron said:


> Hey Shi,
> 
> When Buddy is in the same room I keep them separated by a cage but he has been doing this very wierd standin-tall tail-fanning and strut thing and now has a whole new vocabulary to go with it. The magic will have to wait till she can fight back though. He is so anxious it is hilarious.
> 
> Cameron


I CAN RELATE! Squeaks does that with me...It's a MALE thing! Windy will be VERY thrilled - one of these days!


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## Camrron

I am sort of wondering if Windy is not thrilled already Shi! 

I have good news, Windy ate today for the first time on her own in a long while. Now I am hoping she can make a full recovery so here's keeping my fingers crossed.

Thank-you everyone who has been so helpful to me this last few weeks. The moral support and advice have been tremendous.

Cameron


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## Whitefeather

Windy is a beautiful little pij Cameron.
Buddy looks like a bit of a character.
They are both lovely. Thank you for posting the photos.  

So glad to hear Windy seems to be improving.

Cindy


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron, 

Handsome...!


Glad they are feeling better now!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC

Cameron, Windy doesn't look like she has ever been as sick as she was. What a wonderful job you have done. And, Buddy is sooo handsome.

Maggie


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## Camrron

Maggie, you do know how to make me feel good.

Windy does look good in the photo. She always was a chunky chicken right from day one and fortunately for me so it was easy to keep the padding on once I got all the feeding advice. It is hard to believe that she was almost acting comatose and was totally unresponsive for two weeks. Tonight she and Buddy are snuggled up on the top of my fridge acting like a married couple. I let her out today to interact with Buddy face to face for the first time and who would have guessed but they are a couple already. During that time they spent separated by the cage-wire they must have had some secret heart to heart discussions I know nothing about. Things are happening fast around here lately!

Thanks Phil. Windy sends a note of thanks to you too. She just roo-cooed "your the best"! I really do think she meant it. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


I have seen this happen also...where, a convelescent, caged for weeks, once well and out, is stepping into an appearently on-going romance I was at most barely aware of m-a-y-b-e having been going on.

How sweet...!


Scatter plenty of nice clean dry Pine Needles, fine-slender eight inch long twigs and so on...and, see if they start gathering them one-at-a-time in their Beaks, and taking them vivdly into some special place or other...

It was just Valentine's Day you know...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

Unbelievable, you pre-guessed my next questions Phil. Thanks for answering them. I was going to ask is this normal? How can this be so fast? What did I miss while she was recovering and then I was going to say, should I be putting nesting material out. This is all so weird.

The two of them want nothing to do with me at all. They are doing this little dance, Buddy is nose down to the ground cooing and she follows where he goes. He was also standing for the longest time facing the corner away from her and cooing while she looked on placidly. They have now found a private place on top of a shelf out of veiw and have settled down. What is up! 

Love is in the air. Happy Valentines.

Cameron


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## Reti

Congratulations, cameron. 
So, you have couple now? Oh, how sweet.

Reti


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## mr squeaks

*Yes, Cameron,*

and guess what! The fun is JUST beginning! Pretty soon you will have EGGS!  (sorry, actually, not YOU, but Buddy and Windy  )

And you know what THAT means: EITHER, let 'em hatch or BE PREPARED with wooden fake eggs for their sitting pleasure!

I'm sure they will continue to give you many hours of pleasure. Sounds like a match made, indeed, in heaven!


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


If they do get into their Nest Building occupations...you can also occasionally offer one of them a nice little slender Twig or Broom Straw.

To do so, hold it at about their eye level, and gently twirl it slowly between your thumb and forefinger tips. It will get their attention, and so then hold it so it is easy for them to get or take from you so they know you are giving it to them and not merely showing off what a nice twig 'you' have. Lol

If they elect to accept it from you, and they likely will...then you will be able to tell by their look, and, by that the Pigeon will walk up to it and take in in his or her Beak and shake it in various ways, to then trot off proudly with it to bring to their beloved, who is likely just slightly twitching their Wings, nodding softly, and mooing or moaning in the nest, waiting to see what shall be brought next...

Mine always seemed to really enjoy their Nest Making times...and of course I enjoy watching them do so too...they are so sweet about it and bright with happiness and sincerity.

Disused Flight Feathers they may have dropped are also often used by them in their Nests, as would be any String or Thread they can find, but of course String and Thread are to be discouraged, or, if allowed, then one does well to make sure it does not get tangled on their or their Baby's Legs and Feet.

"Thick" String and Twines are allright in short lengths of a six inches or ten even, which will not tend to wrap around Ankles and so on.


Best wishes you three...!


Phil
Las Vegas...


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## Camrron

Thanks Reti, It does look like love with Windy and Buddy. Hey, shouldn't you be sitting with feet up being fed olives and ice-cream on your Birthday! Your family is supposed to be feeding you, washing dishes and tending to all requests. No computing allowed! Course I do appreciate hearing from you and it's a good day for me. I still can't believe I just went from a terminal pigeon illness to true pigeon love in two weeks. You guys have seen this all before but for me it's still a minor miracle.

Did you say eggs Mr Squeaks. I'm supposed to be going on a long trip soon. I can't be a daddy yet. Heck. I never had children myself never mind having pigeon's for kids. I better buy some wooden eggs and get a good long term baby-sitter. Course you know me by now, I would find it impossible to throw out any good egg that came along. Looks like I'm off to the library to get out that Spock book on child rearing.

Great advice Phil. I have always wanted to ask you how many pigeons you have had over the years. How many do you have now? You just don't get all that info and advice out of books. I will try that twig thing you mentioned but can't promise I won't keep the twig for myself. Hey, I'm greedy about twigs you know.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks

Camrron said:


> Did you say eggs Mr Squeaks. I'm supposed to be going on a long trip soon. I can't be a daddy yet. Heck. I never had children myself never mind having pigeon's for kids. I better buy some wooden eggs and get a good long term baby-sitter. Course you know me by now, I would find it impossible to throw out any good egg that came along. Looks like I'm off to the library to get out that Spock book on child rearing.
> 
> Great advice Phil. I have always wanted to ask you how many pigeons you have had over the years. How many do you have now? You just don't get all that info and advice out of books. I will try that twig thing you mentioned but can't promise I won't keep the twig for myself. Hey, I'm greedy about twigs you know.
> 
> Cameron


When Cindy gave me a "nest" basket for Mr. Squeaks, she also brought pine needles. I made the mistake of dropping them in the basket. WRONG. Between Squeaks and the cats, I had pine needles everywhere! I didn't try Phil's suggestion tho, so will so back to the drawing board! Once I got rid of the pine needles, I tore up pieces of paper, note paper and softer paper towel. Squeaks promply removed the 'harder' note pieces and left the soft. Cindy also gave me a wooden egg that I put in the basket. Right now, he's not in "nest" mode, so IF I'm lucky, the egg will stay there unless one of the cats decides it's a new toy! In that case, I may NEVER find it!

Yeah, when you're gone - what will happen to Windy and Buddy?


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,



Well...Windy & Buddy, if they are successful...you could keep your eye peeled for Eggs in about ( oh! Now I forgot how long it takes for the Eggs to form to be lain...but I think it is about 18 days...and, then about that also for them to incubate and pip. 

So, anyway, what my thought was...is that you have around 36 to 40 something days till there would be any peeping 'Peepers...


So, maybe you can make your Trip and already return by then, and just have some trusted Soul stop by to make sure they have fresh Seeds Grit and Water every other day in your absence...

At the moment, uhhhhhh, I have one 'peeeper', little 'Winter' Baby...

Four adult Pigeons; two free-roveing ex-feral non-releaseables who are mates and have a Nest they take turns sitting on but with no Eggs yet...


...and two other currently convelescent ones in cages, ( one of whom will likely be releaseable and the other time will tell.) ..and...one wacky Morning Dove who is long over-due for release but whom I can not catch, even in the dark, and she does not have any interest to go...so...

That's the present Beak-Count for here...! - Six Birds all tolled...

Truely, Life would not feel 'right' without these 'mooing' and 'cooing' and 'Uh-rooo-kuh-roo! RocRoc!' sounds dcomeing from some shelf or corner...the 'peeeeeeep-peeeeeeep-peeeeeeeep! of Babys...the rustle of Feathers and little 'zzzzzzzzzzzzzip' sounds of their preening...and the flutter of Wings of course...when those who can...fly...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feather

Beautiful Birds! And they know it too, don't they.

Are you sure one of those birds is not named Rosco?

JUST KIDDING!

Should I call you GRANDMA?

Feather


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## Victor

CAMERON, I especially like the first one, it shows off the beautiful irrecandesant neck colors!

Terry~ A mighty big one there. Is Buddy a King pigeon? 

Both good camera hams!


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## Camrron

Thanks Victor,

Windy is the good looker, she is getting all puffed up just hearing about your nice compliment. (I did tell her of course).

Well I went out and got a wooden nest bowl. Took your advice Shi about the paper towel strips and threw all Buddies Molt feathers in along with some string into and around the nest. The two of them jumped right in. Buddy is acting so strange all of a sudden too. I put out the nest and now he won't let me near it. Very territorial. I will take your advice about avoiding the pine needles. It sounds too messy for me. 

Just to update you all Windy is eating well now, preening and just basically looking good. She has taken her first steps to investigate the apartment and if I must say she is a real darling. Buddy on the other hand is looking a little haggard since he started his mating dance. Lots of feathers out of place but she doesn't seem to mind. He's got that badboy look about him now. Hope he doesn't take up smoking and Harley's though.

I saw the two of them happily nesting side by side for a couple hours tonight so it looks like I will now give her all her freedom around the apartment. I had been separating them at night because I was still unsure if she was well enough to deal with Buddy on her own. Seems I am the problem now. They want to be together and I am getting the cold shoulder from both of them. Lol

I'll have to get some twigs tomorrow as you suggested Phil. The time is now. Mother Nature is not going to be operating on my schedule anymore. You do have a lot of birds but I sort of thought you might have flocks of them. Six can be plenty though I know and just two keep me very busy. Isn't it great to wake up to the sounds of cooing though. I just love it. It sometimes feels like I am living in the jungle or something.

I don't have anyone to take my birds yet Shi. When I go it will be for a very extended period of time, a year or more so I will need to hand these two over to a real pigeon lover, probably for good. That's just how it is.

Hey Feather, there is no Roscoe here... I will swear on a sack of pigeon mix that that's true. 

Cameron


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Well, all sounds charming there with those two...!


Pine Needle wise, I mean the 'long' kind that are ohhhhh, six or eight inches long anyway. 

I will guess that about four to five hundred Birds have passed through these rooms here all tolled. Probably close to half of them logistically orphaned Babys or youngsters who grew up in here to make their debut then to join the feral flock or as may be, to make their way in the World out 'there'.

And always, to some extent, the few non-releaseable ones who become resident Birds in here...for whom periiodically I have found loving homes for...who make Nests of their own sometimes, make their own Babys like 'Big Daddy' and 'Ranoma' did in December - January...

'Floor Birds' of course can give one quite a start if one happens to almost step on them!

So...be careful, they can sometimes just be laying there in the middle of the floor day-dreaming or something, or after they bathe, they might like to lay on some cloth or pair of socks one had incidentally left on the floor or something...and....

Same with if they have a Nest, and make those HUGE 'off-the-nest-poops' the size of a Vienna Sausage or something.

And, on a Tile or Congoleum or Wood Floor, if your Heel or Shoe sole hits that just right, especially if in Leather sole Shoes, you can do a real old fashioned Vaudville prat-fall like nobody's business...!


Lol...

And true!


Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

Holy Crow Phil !!!!

4 or 5 hundred birds. That's like 498 more than I have ever had. No wonder you know what your talking about. You must have been doing this for years. And the expense of it. Can't imagine how hard that can be on the budget at times. I mean just two birds has set me back a few hundred already. Course some of that is one time expenses but still. Now I understand a little more your long posts. You have a lot to say about birds and I knew that already I just had no idea you rehabbed so many. Wow!

I can't recall having ever seen a tree around here with needles as long as you mentioned. I have not really paid that much attention to tree needles before though. There are trees with shorter ones for sure. I might just try to buy some of that Raffia I have heard about. Windy, despite what looks like a generally good outlook for her is still in my mind a bit under the weather. She is quite passive compared to Buddy so I hope now that I didn't let her out of isolation too soon. It did however perk her up a lot. She had been isolated 3 weeks and really hadn't been doing much pecking or eating till I put her with Buddy. 

Yeah, too, I will keep an eye out for those Vienna sausages. Already squished one or two between my toes so I don't like to go barefoot too much anymore. Yuk. I did not enjoy that at all! I'm keeping my eyes open for the floor snoozers too. I always worry about accidentally stepping on a bird. Buddy has a habit of falling asleep by my feet when I am watching TV. He has snuck up on my feet more than once and fallen asleep without me noticing so I am constanly checking now before I get up to move. 

All the best to you Phil. I just can't get over how many birds you've had.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks

Oh my gosh, could PHIL be sending Rosco to Victor??  

We have Canary Island Pine trees with beautiful looong needles. Too bad they end up in pieces and then in the vacuum cleaner! I guess I just wasn't getting them to Squeaks the right way. Even twirling and offerting them to Squeaks didn't work but my timing could have been off. I also think the cats had something to do with the needles destruction too!

Well, Cameron, since you will have to find a home for Buddy and Windy - no babies for them - you'll have to use dummy eggs...


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Well, it adds up!


I started in 1980, maybe late 1979 finding an unconscious Pigeon in a busy Street and brought her home where she came-to after three days and...she got well and stayed. Got her a mate, they made a Nest on my Desk and had Babys. 

Found a Vet, and the Vet started giveing me all the various species babys walk-ins would bring her, so, I started raising all these Sparrow Babys, Mocking Bird Babys, and Pigeon Babys, and no one had any info for me on how to do it or what to do, so I just kind of tried to find my way along...

Did manymanymany Babys for six years or so...60 or 70 each Summer anyway, and sprinkles of them in Spring and Autum with Winter being just a few Pigeon Babys...so really, by the mid 1980s I probably hit the "400" mark if I really try and add thenm all up roughly...I had a House then with a nice Yard and fed the Wild Birds every day, so there were always ways to try and socialise the Sparrows and Pigeons anyway, while the Mockers are not so easy.

Since then, when I moved into my Workshop building and have just this little appartment and a big Work Shop, I have not done the quantities I started off doing back when Baby-Wise, but began to do more with the ill or injured adults than I had previously.

I dare not let many Vets know I do this, or, I mean to send Birds my way or call me to some get them, sadly, or I would be overwhelmed very soon and it would defeat me. 

So, anymore, it is just people who somehow find my number, or, the receptionist at only one all night Animal Hospital, who, at her descretion, gives my number out to callers or walk-ins sometimes.

Even with this I can get slammed sometimes, having sixteen or eighteen Pigeons and Doves in here at once, and, that is very hard on me then...

...one can spend all day just going from this Wing bandage that now has a foot stuck in it and the Bird is laying on their side looking sheepish...and from the fifteen minutes of re-doing it for the tenth time that day, go do the tube-feed of another who was car acaked and still feeling poorly and dim, then do this for that one, and do that for this one, and feed the Babys, and have the olde flying Juveinls landing ON the Babys wanting to be fed too! - and tube feed the Candida youngster on his four day fast, waiting for when you can give food again...and...realize there is one who is free roveing but you have not seen him today and is he opkay? So go find him...and...it just wears one out, and the whole day goes by into night, so that one can not get anything else done!

Oh, sigh...


Creditors do not find this an acceptable reason for being put off...Lol...

So, "six" therabouts is u-s-u-a-l-l-y pretty easy...!

Expenses are next to nothing overall, occasional meds, the rare fecal analysis...Seeds...

I have a very nice Avian Vet who does things for free so long as they are not what he calls 'Heroics', and then he stretches the definition so it ends up being free anyway if the Bird needs it, so, I go to him for them to get stitches or sometimes other brief proceedures.


Pigeon Talk, our forum here, has been such a fantastic group and source of learning for me.

I was good at a lot of impirical naive practices, and had very little for disease recognitions and medical appreciations.

Overall, I had I think a pretty high survival rate somehow, with just a few meds and my guesses or best trys, and very very high survival and thriveing rates with Babys once I learned to identify the Trichomoniasis which effects many Pigeons and Doves their Babys here...I just had no where and no one to learn from till "Pigeon Talk".

...and my Good-Guy Vet is a recent find.

None of the Vets knew really very much at all about Birds or Pigeons or how to treat them for a lot of the things one sees. It was just not something that tended to be part of their practice, what with Cats and Dogs and the odd Hamster and so on being the mainstay.

So...

So much to all this, and it goes on forever...

So much to learn, and to learn how recognise and to learn how to do...



Rambley...

Time for Tea and bed now...!

And to feed the Peeper 'Winter' his nighty-night-time, stuff-'em-to-the-gills meal, so he sleeps, well, 'Like a Baby'...

Lol...

Yours, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

*Love is in the Air*

Cameron,

Just want to congratulate the NEW couple, Windy and Buddy. How absolutely wonderful!  

This puts a whole new aspect on your relationship with Buddy and Windy, makes it even more interesting.  

...and the eggs...are you going to let them hatch or replace with dummies?


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## John_D

Phil -

Thanks for sharing your introduction and progress there. It's a good read, and a good example of starting learning 'on the fly' by just doing it and progressively gaining more and more experience.

Cameron, it's such a pleasure to read how your little guys are getting along now. Wonderful birds, pigeons. In fact, much of the time I find it difficult to think of them as birds at all - they seem to me to be something all on their own 

John


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## Camrron

John_D said:


> Phil -
> Cameron, it's such a pleasure to read how your little guys are getting along now. Wonderful birds, pigeons. In fact, much of the time I find it difficult to think of them as birds at all - they seem to me to be something all on their own
> 
> John


I have often thought exactly the same thing you mentioned John about them being something all their own but don't seem to have the words to define what that is exactly. When you start to love them and know them individually I think they become an extension of your personality and part of the family. You must really have your hands full with nine new ones now. I will have to go read up on the latest right after I am finished writing here. Loved the pictures though.

You are right Shi and Treesa. A wooden egg is my only option. There is no way I can release Windy, especially in this cold weather we are having and also because of her sight problems. I have come to the conclusion she will remain an indoor bird. That being said, and given Buddy is a pet and also not fit for release, there is no way for the parents to teach any youngsters the hazards of life and thus they would also be unreleasable. So, babies are ruled out. Much as I would love to have some here. I think it's impossible.


Phil,

Thanks for taking the time to write out your amazing story. I never saw any of this in the "your handle" thread and I always love to read about the past experiences of all the others here. It's staggers the mind a bit what you have done over the years. Exhausting too by the sounds of it. Only a true bird lover would hang in there for the birds like you have done. Sounds like you could use some time off and a nice long holiday in the tropics except you would probably just end up attracting more birds and rehabbing in your hotel room.To the chagrin of the resort owners of course!

Cameron


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


If your two did have Babys, and if you were to be on friendly terms with the Babys...

And if you feed and are accepted by a feral flock...

It is not hard then to introduce the youngsters to the wild-feral others, and for them to have successive forays with the feral flock while the flock grazes...

So that when they are ready, the young Pigeons merely join the feral flock and all is well.


Really, once the youngsters are about two weeks old, their Pigeon Parents have as little to do with them as possible...in a nice way, but...

Aside from feeding them, their Pigeon parents pretty well stear clear of them, and if they do come close, the Babys just 'Peeeeeeep!Peeeeeep!PEEEEEEP!' to be fed even if they are stuffed already, so, the parents give them a wide berth except for periodically feeding them so they stay stuffed.

Often by then the parents are making a new Nest and anticipating anotyher set of Babys anyway, and their attentions will be divided between finishing up the raising of the last two, and, beginning the raising of the next two.

Once the debutants are around other Pigeons, they are then going to be about learning their Worldly ways and tips and cues and so on about various things. Otherwise, with their Pigeon parents, they know only the Nest and it's abstraction from larger contexts, and, for some little while, once able to fly however well they need to to join their parents to accompany their parents to where-ever the parents go to to graze or forrage....and there they get to meet others and start learning things...

So...

Bringing the youngsters 'out' when say 16 days old or something, and carefully setting them with the wild feral others out of doors, and staying close to them so you can supervise and so they know you are close and watching them, so the little ones can see others grazing and pecking and being vigilant and so on, is a very good beginning and introduction for them. 

And if one then do a number of these little introductions with them, then once the youngsters are about ready to start flying, one ceases to bring them out for a while, they will be poised to continue nicely on their own once they are flying well enough to go and to keep going. This method, done in that way, also avoids the problem of trying to get a neophyte flier to come back 'in' when they are not ready to stay out continuously yet. While it prepares them for when they will take off and keep going. If one does this, there is no intimidation or confusion for the youngsters, and instead, they are eager TO finally 'go' once they feel ready.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

You know Phil,

With what I now know I do think I have the confidence to pull it all off and do it correctly too. I'm a good student overall and really love my birds. My worries are things related to timing, the environment, weather, household conditions and risks to my birds health.

I still don't think all is quite right with Windy yet. She is not consistant with her eating and I have just noticed her crop is empty today while Buddy's is quite full. I feel that she may be relapsing actually. While they continue to build their nest and overall seem happy something is still wrong. I am looking to doing blood tests I think come month end. Tonight I am bolstering her with seed pops. She hates it but I find it is really a great way to give her solid food, slow digesting without a whole lot of work. They go down pretty good too with, as you mentioned, some moisenting with oil first.

Hopefully I have not overdone it but I gave her a total of just under a tablespoon of peanuts, yellow peas, shelled sunflower and frozen corn tonight...seed-pop form. She still has the runs something terrible and I am hoping the whole seeds might make the difference to diet. This is part of the reason I asked about digestive enzymes yesterday on Reti's thread.

Windy is thriving though and the nest building is going ahead fulll steam so overall it is optimistic. Buddy does seem to be doing most of the work though while Windy is enjoying most of the nest benefits. Is this normal pair-bonding behaviour? 

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002

Camrron said:


> She still has the runs something terrible Buddy does seem to be doing most of the work though while Windy is enjoying most of the nest benefits. Is this normal pair-bonding behaviour?
> 
> Cameron


Hi Cameron, 

Sorry to be jumping into your thread so late...please forgive me as I've been unable to keep up with all the goings on daily.

Do these poops of Windy's smell at all? Do you have any medications for coccidiosis or worms and has she been to a vet to test for these things? Sorry again if this is redundant but I haven't been able to read all the posts. 

Also, I'm a little worried about your allowing Buddy and Windy together when Windy's health is in question still.

As for the nest building bahaviours, yes this is normal...the male brings all the material to the hen and she arranges them into the nest.


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## Camrron

Hi Brad,

It's really great to hear from you again. You are missed around here you know. 

I did have a fecal done and a smear. The results were very high levels of yeast and nothing else. After three weeks of keeping Windy isolated I felt she was not improving so got a cage so she could have Buddies company.(separated still though). She really perked up and started eating readily on her own. I came to the conclusion that isolation was actually harming her and possibly keeping her sick. After a few more days of cage separation, and good results from self feeding, I decided to just let her out. I have worried about it ever since but what is done is done. 

Buddy seems just fine and a romantic relationship blossomed. The nest is growing daily with string, tissue (and my money) and Windy is flying around the apartment. She is as fat as always thankfully.Tonight though as I said she is crop-empty so I now have to reconsider if I have made a very big mistake. Now I will have to watch them very carefully. I really thought that three weeks isolation was enough. I know I read somewhere it was. That's about it for the update.

I'm glad you are back and I hope to hear a lot more from you. Hopefully all is going well with you and your family.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Cameron, 

Thanks for the quick update and thanks for the good wishes. Yes, your thread has become quite long and I'm still behind on the posts on the forum. Just when I think I'm sort of catching up, I wake up and there are 20 new threads with 20 posts in each! I'm certain that I won't ever really catch up with everything that I've missed these last 2 months but I'm still trying. I just like to be aware of the happenings of the members and their birds.

As for Buddy and Windy, normally 3 weeks of quarantine time is sufficient but a true quarantine time period, with proper protocols is actually 90 days. But like you said, what is done is done and besides, it would be too difficult for you to do the a true quarantine in your apartment for that amount of time.

I'm wondering if you should take Windy back for another fecal. Sometimes things don't show the first time around. Coccidiosis has flare up periods and levels might have been down at the time last checked. Worms as well don't always show up the first time under the scope. If you don't object, I would suggest a second fecal float just to be sure everything comes up clear. Blood tests are the next thing and a very good idea as many things can be detected in the blood.

Good luck with all of this, you sure have been given quite the "introduction" to pigeons from all of us in a very short period of time. You're a real study and persistant caregiver


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## Camrron

Hi again Brad,

The support and advice I have gotten here really is tremendous. I have had a good intro into pigeons in a very short period of time. A crash course really and almost everyone here has been patient with me on my learning curve.

Sorry about not answering all your initial questions. 

1) No the poops don't smell
2) No I don't have medication for Coccidiosis.
3) I have not treated for worms.
4) Yes, I have been to the vet for an exam and fecal.
5) But I don't know if the fecal tests for Coccidiosis
6) Also I don't really know what Coccidiosis is except for what Pidgey has told me.

As if to make me look like a complete fool, Windy is pigging out on seed along with Buddy as I write. I swear, every time I notice something that the pigeons do as unusual, the pigeons do something to make me wish I had never posted.

I have had Windy 27 days now. She is a survivor and wants to get better. There is no question in my mind that I am doing the right thing caring for her despite all the troubles she has had. 

About the fecals....done and done. I will go back for a second try. Really I am committed now, especially with love blooming around here. I have followed all the suggestions given very carefully but she is still not quite normal as a pigeon should be in my mind. My resources are a bit limited right now though. Is it OK to just treat for worms and Coccidiosis without further tests in the hope that will solve the issue for her? Is there a risk in doing that or should my money be better spent on blood tests. It's not cheap so that is why I am asking.

Cameron


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## Pigeonpal2002

Camrron said:


> she is still not quite normal as a pigeon should be in my mind. My resources are a bit limited right now though. Is it OK to just treat for worms and Coccidiosis without further tests in the hope that will solve the issue for her? Is there a risk in doing that or should my money be better spent on blood tests. It's not cheap so that is why I am asking.
> 
> Cameron



Hi Cameron, 

That is good that the poops don't smell at least. As for your resources and questions about what to do, that is up to you. I will never suggest to a member something that will hurt their pigeon, or the caregiver's bankbook but...

Yes, you could treat for cocci and worms without going for a second test but that will not give you confirmation that either was a problem. Worms and coccidiosis _are_ extremely common problems in wild pigeons. Cocci is present in all pigeons but underlying illnesses, stress and weakness can bring the counts up considerably higher to the point of it affecting them as a disease. Worms are also very common in wild pigeons/birds. Cocci and worms are both easy to treat problems. Still, it would be best to get the tests done to confirm things so that you're not spending more money on meds and possibly getting no desired results. It's always best to treat appropriately rather than treat wantonly

There are so many things that could be going on with Windy you have no idea, I'm just questioning some of the more common things is all.


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## mr squeaks

When Squeaks was being treated for his injured wing, I had a fecal done. I was told it was negative. 

After he healed and all was going well, one day he passed a round worm! Dr. Burke prescribed Panacur and said that should take care of the problem. Well, the Pancurr sure did its job because Squeaks passed SIX more fully formed worms!! I couldn't believe it! 

I've had his fecal tested (both types of tests) twice since then and all has been negative...


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## Camrron

OKay,

I will post results after payday. 

Thanks Brad, Thanks Shi. Windy will be fine until then. Love conquers all I think. And she is a tough little bird. Very sweet too.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

Worms don't always shed eggs that can be seen in a fecal. Sometimes it's because the worms haven't grown up enough yet; sometimes it's because there's not an adult pair capable of producing the eggs (mature male and female). Often, the fecal float technique isn't quite right. There's more than one way to do a fecal--different solution materials (sugar, salt, mineral salts) and sometimes it's even best to do a sedimentation in a lighter-gravity medium instead of a float. The basic salt-float technique is one of the simplest and most versatile, but you also need to take the time to scan the entire slide that you produce and a lot of folks (even vets) won't take the time for that procedure. They take a few snapshot looks and make a judgment. Worm eggs are often found in quantities less than ten on an entire slide down to as few as only one so it's kinda' important to take your time. That's why I do it myself anymore.

On another note, sometimes the effects of Candidiasis are cumulative and cause tissue changes. There can be a conversion in the crop to a condition sometimes called "Turkish Towel" where the normally thin crop lining thickens quite a bit with a surface texture resembling the rough side of a towel. That doesn't go away easily. There are many things that can cause a fibrosis (scarring) that's going to have a longterm effect, maybe even lasting a (shortened) lifetime. We can never know everything and so we're reduced to just doing the best that we can, sometimes.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

When you mentioned that Windy's poops are runny, I was reminded of Cindy and how her hens have "horrendous" poops during their broody/egg time. The poops may have some odor (I've never noticed her aviary smelling but she is also a great "cleaner-upper") but they are quite "splashy."

Do you think that maybe Windy's poops could be related to this "stage?" BTW, Cindy also commented that even a Flight Suit wouldn't help! 

I've seen this hen poop thing first hand. Cindy has plastic under the nests and every so often - SPLAT! And then my comment, "Wow! THAT'S a dandy!"


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## Camrron

I am not seeing the splash thing Shi. Sometimes the poops look to me to be puffy and overly moist if that makes sense. Not dense and firm like Buddy's. They are almost always green despite how much I feed or how much she eats so I have ruled out insufficient nutrition. They are also quite big and fewer in number than Buddy produces.

Thanks Pidgey for the notes. Now I really understand why you do your own fecals. When you want a job done right you do have to do it yourself sometimes. What I was asking Brad yesterday was, are their treatments that you guys go to with sick birds that are commonly done, safe and basically precautionary in nature? EG, I have a sick bird and I don't know exactly what the problem is anymore but doing "X" or "Y" has almost always solved my problem without having to run to the vet everytime I get worried. That's why I was asking about Cocci or worm treatments. Are those one-pill solutions to easily solved problems that are common to pigeons? Hopefully you know what I mean here. 

I really love that idea that Terry put out about a dictionary of terms for Pigeons.Com. In this case would'nt it be handy to have a basic reference on disease and treatments in the same place. I mean there is really a headful of stuff on terminology about meds, illnesses and conditions that non-scientific people like me would find very handy. It would really help get some of us newbies up to speed on the lingo and simplify the communication that follows. Seems you would be a natural to build that part of a dictionary Pidgey and it would be a great resource and reference for all. 

Thanks you guys.

Cameron


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## Reti

Hi Cameron,

when I had a big balcony flock and occasionally someone got sick, besides the recieved birds form other people, I gave one Spartrix (for canker), one Apertex (for coccidia) and one injection of Ivomec (for worms). Unless there was a bad case of canker and needed further treatment they all did pretty good and were up and running within a couple of days.
Right now I am out of meds, but will order and do the same, it works. If they don't recover in a couple of days it's off to the vet.

Reti


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Did you keep Windy on the ACV-Water continuously for some weeks?

Initial concentration for suspected Candida being ( in my view) the 1-1/2 Tablespoons-per-Gallon of Water, then, after four days or so, merely 1 Tablespoon per Gallon for drinking and all other Water intake...

I am sure that your use of the ACV-Water took care of her Candida if she had any to take care of, so...really, that should have done it's job there regardless, so far as the infestation of the organism proper is concerned.

But if her poops still indicate excessive Yeasts, then...I dunno! There is of course so many things that can go on with them, and my 'Tool Box' is somewhat limited, but...I am sure there is an answer to account for it.

The ACV-Water does also eradicate or discourage a wide range of little undessirables...Campylobacter, (mind went blank, sorry, but there is a long list anyway that just went 'poof'..!) and many others who sometimes opportune on a compromised immune system...or bother their digestive system from one end to the other.

Sometimes I have used a product called "Vitaking 5 in 1"...you could do a 'google' on it and likely get some Mail order pretty easily from a Canadian Pigeon Supply outfit.

It is a combination of five medicines, in a powder one mixes in Water...for addressing many kinds of Worms, Respiratory infections, Coccidiosis, as well as other potential mischief-makers.

If I can not figure out what else to do, or have tried some things and still feel a Bird is not quite well...I have used this.

I have them on it for 5 days or 6..then 7 or 8 or 10 days off of it, then another 5 or 6 day round.

In fact, you could put them both on it for just such a regimen, in case Buddy had inadvertently picked up anything which is at some early stage of mischief, like some kind of Worms or Coccidiosis or other. That way you would not have to seperate them now that they are mates and all...


She might not lay any Eggs soon if her system is still buisy dealing with some compromise or mild illness or other, even if she is having fun with Nest Making activities...

Anyway, some of the thought that is trying to form in my not-awake-enough-yet brain...is hoiw various endoparisites can make not only physical interferences with irgan function, but, they excrete toxins which interfere also chemically. iIf something like this is effecting her Liver or Bile or other digestive related ancillary organs and processes, it might be making for a chronic ph imbalance allowing various yeats to take advantage, and they too then contribute to the problem with their own potentially toxic excretions and other interferences.

This is a naive conjecture, but, might be in the ballpark...

So, my thought of maybe considering to use the old 'Vitaking 5-in-1' stuff with it's 'Shotgun' approach...

Otherwise, as I am sure you are anyway, to remember that direct Sunshine, shredded matterd thin Sea Weeds, other fresh Greens such as Kales, Endives, Cilantro and so on have mysteriously benificial properties for them generally, and, to also help them get well, or stay well.


Have fun...!

Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather

mr squeaks said:


> * When you mentioned that Windy's poops are runny, *I was reminded of Cindy and how her hens have "horrendous" poops during their broody/egg time. *
> 
> The poops may have some odor (I've never noticed her aviary smelling but she is also a great "cleaner-upper") but they are quite "splashy."
> 
> Do you think that maybe Windy's poops could be related to this "stage?" **BTW, *Cindy also commented that even a Flight Suit wouldn't help!*
> 
> I've seen this hen poop thing first hand. Cindy has plastic under the nests and every so often - SPLAT! And then my comment, "Wow! THAT'S a dandy!"


*Yes indeed! And all three are sitting on 'fake' eggs right now.  

** No, they wouldn't. In fact, they would be more work as I would be changing them as often as a newborn's diapers. 

* * * *

*"I am not seeing the splash thing Shi."*

Count your blessings Cameron.  

Cindy


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## Camrron

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

You guys all knew what I meant. I really apreciate your advice. I will have to go back and re-read it again, probably printing out your ideas is better though and then it's off to the Pet supply places I know best. That buckshot idea of the 5 in 1 appeals to me Phil. This has gone on too long for Windy so some pro-active general treatment is in line. Then, Spartix, Apertex or Ivomec as the case may be after treatment if I still have no solutions then.

This is just the kind of advice I needed right now. You guys are terrific. 

PS: I am indeed counting my blessings Cindy. My place is carpeted so the less drippy droppings are better for me and the apartment. Hey, maybe we can add "Drippy Droppings" to Terry's dictionary.

Cameron


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## Camrron

Reti said:


> Hi Cameron,
> 
> when I had a big balcony flock and occasionally someone got sick, besides the recieved birds form other people, I gave one Spartrix (for canker), one Apertex (for coccidia) and one injection of Ivomec (for worms). Unless there was a bad case of canker and needed further treatment they all did pretty good and were up and running within a couple of days.
> Right now I am out of meds, but will order and do the same, it works. If they don't recover in a couple of days it's off to the vet.
> 
> Reti


Thanks Reti, I was re-reading your post just now for the third or fourth time. I like the approach you have taken and it makes sense especially if you are re-habbing and one problem in one bird in the group could quickly overwhelm both your flock and your time and financial resources if you don't get on top of it quickly. Right now I am struggling with one single bird but really, with a group you just can't fool around fussing with each one sometimes. Group dosing then sounds like the best solution. It seems that the same is done in hospitals too in cases where say Legionaires or Flesh-eating disease or a raft of other infectious problems might break out. Doctors tend to treat the whole ward even if no symptoms are present sometimes just to be safe. It makes good common sense too when time is of the essence. 

Phil, honestly, I have to make notes whenever I read one of your posts. They are so chock-full I just can't absorb it all in one bite. I have a stack of hard copy of your past messages (and Pidgeys) that I can refer to and it's really a wealth of info. After re-reading sometimes I am struck how something you said later came true and it is usually the one thing I initially dismissed as unlikely. It's always like that though isn't it.

Cameron


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## TerriB

Camrron said:


> ...They are also quite big and fewer in number than Buddy produces...
> Cameron


Cameron, you are doing a great job in supporting Windy and juggling the needs of the two birds. Something that I've noticed is that the males, during courtship phase, produce numerous small poops. It reminds me of the scent-marking behavior in dogs (scatter your scent as widely as possible). Not sure if it's from nerves or on purpose to scent mark their area. I'm always glad when the pairs settle onto eggs. Things are quieter and cleaner! 

This may be a minor factor in what you are seeing, although it sure seems like there are other issues to resolve. You are observant and diligent, so these birds are in good hands!


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Just home from my field chores today...and...noticing your mention of 'Carpet' ( and this is funny, but I was thinking you had Carpet for some reason yesterday...)...

Ideally, or to my mind anyway, if one has indoor Pigeons, who will of course poop as-they-will, I think one is best to have Floors one can Mop and really clean now and then.

One is, in effect, if they are free-rovers, free fliers...one is in effect Living in an 'Aviary'...an Aviary which admittedly, one has one's own belongings and so on in...in addition to theirs.

My little home of course is completely that way, even though there are at any moment, some few to several Cage-Birds under observation or convelscing toward becomine free-rovers or free fliers in herre untio their subsequent release, when they are releaseable...

And...

Carpets are liable to hold lots of things, and reliably do...and poop fragments among them, getting ground into dusts as one walks on them unwittingly, routinely...and, two scenarios happpen then, both bad for Birds, and bad for you -


When you Vacuum, unless you have some Scientific-Forensic outfit that has some tremendous filter system and effeciency, you will be making the finest airborne dusts of the vestigual dry poops leaking from the Vacuum cleaner's fittings and Bag and collector mouth brush vortex and so on, as well stiurring up and making airborne the microscopic fragments or wholes of perpetual resident sluffed off Nematode exoskeletans and other minute molds, yeasts and assorted nastys...and to make airborne also the minute decomposing fibers of the carpet material iteslf...all of these things are 'bad'.


And, also, when you mererly walk on carpets, the same thing happens as well if more subtley... and this is very bad for anyone's respitory system...Birds especially I will assume.


New carpets are toxic enough from their local concentrations of off-gassing their metrochemical miasma, with them just sitting there on the floor, that a healthy Mouse can die trying to cross a room. I am certain this would kill a toddler-squeaker-peeper Bird also, or, effect them badly anyway...as with any Ground Bird obliged to walk across such carpets.


So, if it was me, I'd opt for plain concrete and just seal it, or Congoleum, of Floor Tiles of some kind, or Wood Floors, or painted Concrete...but no 'Carpets' in the modern sense of them...

Where 'Throw Rugs' made of actual 'Wool' and not 'blends' or cheats, or especially Antique ones really, that can be taken out and beaten, as people used to do, would be much more near to allright...especially if close nap and beaten often.


Just-a-thought...

I got rid of all my Carpets years ago, meaning, the wall-to-wall ones tat were here when I moved in. I was finally so allergic to them I was constantly miserable, then leaning over to pick something up from under the bed, having ,my face near the carpet, I realized "this' WAS something truely nasty, so I ripped them all out that day, carpet pads also of course, and threw them in the dumpster, swept, wet Mopped, and...no more hideous funny nose and puffy eyes and reeling head and dizzy spells and so on...

'Monsanto'...

Making everyone's Life as miserable as they can get away with...!

Lol...

Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

I swear this happens evertime. No sooner did I say I wasn't seeing the splash thing then..............splash! Thank goodness for lino. My place is not all carpeted anyway, only carpeted strategically.

Windy went onto an antibiotic today called Chlor-Palm (125). She is also being dosed with Ivomec. I could not find Vitaking 5 in 1 or even the 10 in 1 Brad mentioned. Looks like I will have to order out of town (from Foys?) if I cannot find a Canadian Supplier. I cannot believe no one in this town carries basic bird meds but one person did say they were regulated to vet offices only.

The problem is the Vet didn't have them on hand either. 

Meanwhile, the nest building continues. I did go out and get some *Raffia* in the dollar store and boy was it ever a big hit. I could recommend it to anyone with nesting birds. *They love it*! And at 1$ a bag you sure get your moneys' worth. You do have to cut it up a bit though. The pieces ranged from about 8 inches all the way up to two feet in length so they were actually a bit too much for the birds to handle at times.

Buddy doesn't even look like a pigeon when he is running across the floor with a length of raffia in his beak. He actually looks and walks like a chicken, it's hilarious.

Cameron.


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Oh! Lol...

I gotta try some of the raffita then...next time I am near some Dollar Store, I will pop in and see if they have some...

'Big Daddy' and my yet-to-be-named PPMV surviver girl, well, they have made several Nests curiously enough, and they spend time nestled together in one or the others Nest, and they will love the raffita I am sure...

I will report back with the results when I get some for them...


Best wishes you three!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Camrron,

I want you to be real careful with that medication (Chloramphenicol)--it's not the safest thing in the universe for you or the pigeon. Here's a link to an old thread here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12041

Also, PM me with your email address and I'll send you a couple of chapters regarding antibiotic therapy and a formulary. In any case, research it well so that you can administer it properly and watch for signs of an adverse reaction. There are a few things that it can do that other drugs can't but it's really a better thing if you can find another antibiotic to do whatever you're trying to do.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

*Carpet comments*: While I certainly agree that carpeting can cause a multiple of woes, I am unable to "de-carpet" my apt. I have had the same carpeting for a number of years and the padding in well traveled areas, at this point, is practically non-existent! 

I REALLY like carpeting. Stepping on a cold and/or hard floor (which, to me, includes ANYTHING that is not carpet) has no appeal.

However, I do have a couple of things going for me that many do not. A few years ago I found a GREAT guy to check my heating/A/C ducts. He informed me that I had such bad mold, he wondered why I wasn't in the hospital! Well, now, he comes once a year to check my vents and replace the filters. MANY TIMES, THIS IS ONE AREA MOST OF US NEGLECT!! 

Also, some years ago, I came across a vacuum cleaner that my parents had when I was a kid. Instead of a bag, all the "junk" goes into water. The company is called Rainbow but that was not the original name. Vacuuming this way makes a tremendous difference in keeping down dust, etc., etc.

Also, I invested in an air purifyer system that, not only cleans the air, but works into carpet and fabrics and elmininates all kinds of nasties. I made sure it was safe for pets and birds! My apartment is next to a busy street and this unit has made a wonderful difference! The unit also produces negative ions and boy, do I feel great! (the better to tease Pidgey!  )

From the way my cats, Squeaks and I are acting, we say YIPPEE!


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## Pidgey

Camrron,

I've be re-reading this thread (mostly your posts and NOT Shi's references to teasing me) to find clues as to why Windy could be beginning a downhill slide. I have noted that you've said she was always plump and that she gets a lot of high-fat things like peanuts, sunflower seeds, etc. You might really consider that it could be the beginning of "hepatic lipidosis" where a buildup of fats in the liver causes major problems that can kill.

That's just one possibility and you should do some research on that. You don't usually see that in a wild bird, of course, and there is still the mystery of what was wrong with her when you found her. It's that which puts some damper on the hepatic lipidosis theory but it's still a consideration. Kinda' makes you wonder if she's diabetic, though, doesn't it?

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Hi Pidgey,

The first day or two I had her she ate well. Then it tapered off and once I started measuring meals realized she was not eating enough. Eventually I had to put her on formula and baby food. She began to eat again once put with Buddy but has again tapered off. At this point she is eating absolutely nothing, not even bothering to peck along with Buddy anymore. She seems hunched over a bit to me and is looking very unhappy. 

This since I started the anti-biotic. I was for a short time doing seed pops in the evening so she could have slow burning fuel overnight. This mainly consisted of peanuts, split peas, shelled sunflower, popcorn and the larger seeds I had on hand so I could mimimize the number of pops which seemed to me a little intrusive. Bringing up to the present she started having terribly runny poops as a result so now seed pops are out altogether. 

Yesterday I let her go the whole day without tube-feeding (except for water of course which I still gave) in the hopes she would develop an appetite and eat. This morning she looked the worst I have yet seen and still no food eaten. 

So I fed her and that's where I am at now. I will be at the Vets Wenesday for blood tests and will mention what you suggested. She is not as fat anymore either as when I first got her. The keel is sharper but it has been such a gradual thing I hardly noticed it at first. Only by comparing to Buddy can I tell.
The Vet is as baffled as me and everyone else. While she seems happy enough during the day I am not sure I am doing the right thing by keeping her like this and don't know how long I should keep it up without a resolution. Hopefully the blood tests will finally tell me what I need to know.

Meanwhile she happily sits in the nest Buddy built and coos happily along with him through the day. If that's not hopefull what is. Perhaps she is just waiting for me to figure it out for her. She is a lovely bird, so sweet and I don't want to lose her after all this. Her voice is softer than Buddies and the tones are richer. They seem to understand each other too and after a feed she flys right back to the nest to be with him where he scolds me from afar as if I were his arch-rival and enemy! LOL.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

Hmm... well, they've been together long enough for her to have laid an egg by now... maybe you should compare the feel of her abdomen with Buddy's and see if it has an anomalous "hardness" or "fullness". Find the bottom end of the breastbone and palpate inward between that bone and the vent on both birds. Post your findings.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Then go read this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


I am really sorry to hear Windy is not feeling well...

Hmmmmmm...

Aspirgillosis might be worth having your Vet see about...

Chlamydia maybe also...

Low orders of Salmonella...

Things she may have been laboring with for a long time but can be elusive somewhat to identify...

I'd agree, no more Peanuts for a while...but if you think she would manage allright with some Seed Pops, then the unpopped Pop Corn of course, and dried whole Peas should be good ones...and you can make little 'balls' out of bits of Sea Weed and do them too even...and ( of course!) the Goji-Berries, soaked till soft and cut into thirds or halves...

This would be a darned good nutrition, low in fats, time-release calories, good Vitamines and antioxidants and so on...and should make for a happy Crop...happy tummy...

Golly...wish I had more to offer...

Good luck!

Are the poops green? Medium Brown goo or syrupy? Or...?

White urates present and well defined?


Hope your Vet can get this narrowed down for some specific identifications of what is bothering her...!

These damned elusive 'bugs' sometimes...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

Hi Phil,

The poops are now like thick green water, even a bit viscous looking, green with some urates and bits of solids. I have many to show as she gifts me on the knee just about every feed. I dont' mind though. I'm a good papa with a sick baby so it's all OK with me. I have followed all advice but the solution still eludes me.

Buddy was a charm to rehab. Perhaps it was his youth, strength and clear physical injuries that I could tend. Windy has me mystified. I am at a loss and am relying on tests now to give me the answers I need. Hopefully blood work will tell me about aspirgillosis, chlamydia or Salmonella. I don't know about these illness's or how they are detected. I know though that we will be looking for results on liver functions and parasites.

That Artemesia thread you are working on is amazing. I never tire of reading what everyone writes there. It is one of my favourites I think of all time. So much good discussion and information. And she is a trooper taking all of it in and staying so focussed. Gotta go. I will get back to you with results Thursday afternoon.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks

Darn, Cameron! I sure hope Windy will be all right! So hard when you want to help and things don't seem to go right! I hope the Vet can give you a definitive answer!

Keeping my fingers crossed, hoping for the best and sending LOADS of WARM HEALING THOUGHTS!!!

Mr. Squeaks says HI to Buddy!


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron...


Oh heck, I wrote a post right 'here' earlier, and now I find there is nothing there...I hate that!

I guess I left it in 'edit' and never finished hitting that 'post' button...sigh...

Well, just want to wish you two, or three really, the best on this elusive deal here with Windy...!

I wish I could come up with some ideas to narrow some of this down. 

Hopefully the fecal analysis and blood work and general exam will have some useful results for what is up here with her.

Appetite still poor?

Are her eyes bright? Feathers smooth? - no arched back? ( 'Lobster-back' )postures? 

Pregnancy of course can throw things off and make for wildly 'off' poops....but should not diminish appetite...


God's speed...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002

Camrron said:


> I could not find Vitaking 5 in 1 or even the 10 in 1 Brad mentioned. Looks like I will have to order out of town (from Foys?) if I cannot find a Canadian Supplier. I cannot believe no one in this town carries basic bird meds but one person did say they were regulated to vet offices only.
> 
> .



Hi Cameron, 

I'm sorry to hear that Windy is starting to worsen again. It really is hard at times to get a definite diagnosis as we ALL know. It's so frustrating and stressful. Hopefully you will get some real results from the blood work-up. 

As for finding proper or a variety of medications for pigeons in Canada, you won't. Some of the stores will sell some products from Europe but they are far and few between and limited to what they do sell. 

I just placed a large order from Siegels myself and this is the only way I've been able to get the medications I need. I'm hoping that I don't have a need for all these meds, but mine were all expired mostly and I need to be prepared for whatever might happen.

Good luck on Thursday with Windy and I sure hope that there is something detected in the tests.


----------



## Camrron

mr squeaks said:


> Darn, Cameron! I sure hope Windy will be all right! So hard when you want to help and things don't seem to go right! I hope the Vet can give you a definitive answer!
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed, hoping for the best and sending LOADS of WARM HEALING THOUGHTS!!!
> 
> Mr. Squeaks says HI to Buddy!


Thanks Shi, I apreciate it especially today. I actually have a lot of faith and don't like to give up so easy. This is one of those things that is a test for me I think so I will see it through to the end however it turns out. I am lucky to have made friends here who back me up when the going gets tough and I really appreciate that.

I do spend time talking to Windy and she just sort of stares at me like I am a lunatic (worried I might pick her up for an exam of one sort or another of course). But she puts up very little resistance most times when I feed her and I think she does know that is what is keeping her going right now so I am all that much more resolved to not let her down. 

BTW, I have never heard of the vacuum you brought up the other day, kept meaning to ask you about it but you know I just got caught up in my problems and that's just my personality. Anyway, after all my talk about free-flight indoor birds, these poops from Windy are very disconcerting for me so I am in the process now of sectioning off a room for the birds. My own Aviary!
It's actually my dining room but I am the kind of guy who eats from a TV Tray anyway and never used that room except to pile junk in. So then I started thinking, well, what about a vacuum that collects dust in water. It sounds like it's even better than one with a Hepa filter on. Can you tell me a bit more about it? Thanks!

Phil, 

Windy was what I would describe as hunched over today. Looking uncomfortable. Maybe this is what you mean as lobster-backed. If I had to put it in other terms it looks as though she is trying to poop but holds that same odd stance for hours. Hopefully you know what I mean by this. It's hard to describe really but intuition tells me she is in discomfort. I gave her a bit of Prednisone and got a good response after a few hours. I think it is about 10 or 12 days now that she has been together with Buddy but will have to backtrack my posts for the exact date. Seems too soon for an egg doesn't it.
Time flies! Tomorrow I will examine her as Pidgey suggested. She has been through enough today I think. Also the vet should be able to help me with this on Wednesday. Talk to you Thursday.

Cameron


----------



## Pidgey

No, it's not too soon for an egg at all. I would have expected one before now, actually, and that's why I'm wondering about the oviduct. I can send you another load of stuff (but you gotta' be able to open it) about oviduct problems that your vet may need to read if he's not familiar with that stuff. By the way, are you still giving the bird Chloramphenicol or did we switch to a different antibiotic?

Pidgey


----------



## Camrron

Yes Pidgey,

I stayed with the Chloramphenicol. My perspective was that I had already done so many doses it would not affect the outcome to just continue.

I managed to open the attachments BTW. There is a lot of good stuff in there. So far I have only managed to read through one of the attachments. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. I checked to see if any eggs have appeared and so far nothing. It was a mistake on my part to let these two mingle before I was certain of a recovery. I won't do that again. Three weeks isolation is definately not enough time.

I have Windy back in her cage while I check again to see if she is eating. Right now she is pecking away which I like to see but I won't get my hopes up until after I have measured the food to see if she actually swallowed any. She is preening again today too and lots of wing stretches but has that hunch back look still. There is yellow in her poops today. Does that mean anything? I was thinking it is just an outcome of the anti-biotics and other meds.

Thanks Brad for the mention of Meds. Whitewings also pointed out that I might get some of what I need from the suppliers for domestics like chickens from the Co-op. I guess I just thought some of these bird meds were even pigeon specific so hadn't tried that route yet. But it's a good idea.

Cameron


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Yellow, 'here' in Las Vegas, I just accept as indicating Trichomoniasis.

Now, maybe sometimes it was really something else, but, not knowing any better, I did find, that when I treated for Trichomoniasis, the whateveritwas responded just as well as if it had been that...so, that has been my practice whenever I see any 'yellow'.


Except for some few fecal analysis occasions in the last 8 months or so, I never had any recourse previously for finding our just what it was a Pigeon had when they were sick,

The only other med I had for a long long time, was Oxytetracycline, and, if a Pigeon was sick with no 'yellow', I used that. Or, I used one then the other or used booth concurrently.

This too, often got them over it...over whatever it was they had.

That and I tried in varius ways to provide Good seeds augmented variouly at times with other stuff, hopeing that if I could give them good nutrition and a decent place to be while not feeling well, that their own systems would also be supported as best I could for them.

At any rate, I had almost no medical info or medical practices, yet, overall, most sick ones managed to get well, even if it took a while sometimes.

Those who did not survive, almost always were ones I would lose within a few days or a week.

The only Vet untill recenetly, Vet or Vets, who I had all these years here, were good only for some brief, simple thing like some stitches or simple examination proceedure, and they never mentioned any 'tests' when I would ask about 'How can we figure out what this Bird has?" and they never did any tests either. They just put no energy 'there' to alert me even to the possibility of tests.

So, on the sick Pigeon front, somehow, I managed to pull an aweful lot of them through, but also lost many because I just had no idea what to do or how to do it or how to figure out what they had to find out what meds to get...and there was no Internet then, at least for me, and no one to ask or talk to...so..it was a big vacuum. And I had no idea even where to try and get meds except for the very few and then got fewer, Farm Stores, Vets giving me outdated ones sometimes if I asked just right...and useing what I had which were old.

So, now I have all these great opportunities to learn more, our forum here, good Books I sent off for, and I have been so buisy for months and months now, my poor head just has hardly any room to learn or retain new info at all.

Soon, I hope, I will change that...

Yellow urates can result also from other illnesses which are effecting their Liver or Kidneys.

Campylobacter, Borrella Ansernia, Mycobacterium, Cryptosporidium...can probably do it too, as can other organisms making illness, of one kind or another.

The Avian Medical Books I have been able to look into, have so far been very heavy on Laboratory things, and on complicated charts of laying out info things, with very little pragmatic or impirical information for narrowing diagnosis on the basis of actually examining the patient and their poops in a basic way...

This is a shame, since like anything, if one can see enough presentations, one will begin to establish orders of probability, intuitively as well as by judgement, for a diagnosis, about 'what' one is looking at. And then, with the Lab, one could do specific Tests to investigate specific prominent possibilities.

But anyway, the pragmatic info the Books seem to have, is overall fairly vague and also trying to cover wide ranges of Species which makes it all worse.

I intend to try and look more off and on, to see if I can find some Books which are just about Pigeons, and then to get them.


Of course different Organisms and the illnesses they make, require typically different, fundamentally different, medications...so, in many cases the two most prominent orders of organism colonization illness can be treated with the tertiary or quartenary ones being left be for the Bird's own immunee system to deal with as it is relieved of some of the burdon of the prominent one's mischief making.

If you have accress to any Metronidazole, it might be well worth a try...and it might just help fairly well for some of what is going on.

You are seeing your Vet tomorrow, so...that is good...!

I am glad about that being tomorrow and not next week or something..!

It might of course be more than one different kind of organism and illness concurrently effecting her. As well as problems from that which take on something of a life of their own too.

So, just make sure she does not seem chilled or fluffy, and keep her warm for now if she does...and see what the Vet can come up with tomorrow with the various kinds of tests.

See to it she is getting enough chow of course, as you are...

Blood tests as well as fecal analysis of course are very good since only some things, during some stages of their progression, will show up very well if at all in the fecals, and, of course other things can show up in fecals which would not appear in the Blood tests...

It should be fine, and might be in fact quite good, to be continueing with the ACV-Water...

Is she drinking unusual amounts?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Camrron

The yellow in the poops is new. So my thinking is what you mentioned, liver functions. Perhaps the Chlor-Palm, Ivomec etc has compromised liver functions a bit. I will copy out some of these posts and talk to the Vet about it.

I rarely see her drinking so can't comment on that but she is not fluffed so that is good. You know, with your mention of empirical knowledge, intuitive approaches to treatment, pragmatic information and probabilities I wonder if one day a good book could not be produced collectively by the members here and drawn from the many good posts. I am not kidding. All we really would need is 2 hundred or so people willing to commit to buy a copy, put up their money and publication could go ahead very nicely. I would buy a copy. the book is already written with the 100,000 plus posts on this site. Just my thoughts.

Cameron


----------



## Pidgey

These yellow poops--is it specifically the urates that have turned yellow or is it the solids (even if it's diarrhea) of the poop itself that have turned yellow? I'd almost wish that you'd stop the Chloramphenicol and switch to a Metronidazole like Brad had to use on Eggbert and that you can get from an aquarium supply store. That's often used for liver problems and lower GI besides being an anti-protozoal.

Pidgey


----------



## Camrron

It's the Urates Pidgey. I think if you feel so strongly about not continueing with the Chloramphenicol then I will take the hint and stop. The vet appointment is so soon anyway. I was always told not to interrupt dosing with Anti-biotics though. That's where I was coming from in continueing up till now in the expectation that some adverse reaction might occur but that it would iron itself out and she would improve.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

And normally I would do the same thing but since we've got Chloramphenicol in the picture here, I don't like it. That's why I gave you the warning--to watch for the pigeon taking a sudden turn downhill. How many days has she been on it so far? And how likely is it that you could find some Flagyl (FishZole) that Brad was talking about?

Pidgey


----------



## Camrron

If I am not mistaken, this is day 5 of 7 for the Chloramphenicol. I just talked to the doctor and he advised I not dose anymore with Prednisone as it can have serious side effects with immuno-compromised birds, allowing the buildup of other unexpected problems and also affects the blood counts when it comes time for blood work. I think he said, but don't quote me here, that the white cell counts end up being too high. LOL, I can hardly absorb it all at times it comes out so quick in phone conversations. Just a mention though for anyone else who is using or considering using Prednisone.

I should be able to get Flagyll as soon as Thursday, after results are out and will buy it direct from the vet. I could not find any so far in aquarium stores after calling around.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

Most of the time, we're dealing with simple stuff and it's a lot easier to resolve. You got to be one of the lucky ones with a real problem. IF we're lucky, it'll eventually get resolved but we're actually tiptoeing on the shores of the River Styx with this one as well as with Artemisia's bird. Rehabbing is sometimes fun, often rewarding and occasionally a nightmare. I don't think we're there, yet, but we're a lot closer than I want to be.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Worm meds can make a strain for them, and load their system as the deceased Worms are deal with in various of their phases and localles...


And if the other meds, singly or in combo are messing her up, and or also messing up her appetite, then...likely, a respite would be a good idea for her.

The Fishzole or Flagyl or Metronidazole might be something you would have to look for on the shelves of some Tropical Fish place, and I am sure they are few up in your area...!

Farm Stores and Feed Stores m-i-g-h-t carry the Metronidazole, as it is used for Commercial and Small Farm Poultry and Livestock concerns too...

I publish a small Catalogue every few years, and it can be done quite 'reasonable' if one has the inside scoop on things...and a Book is no different of course.

Maybe someday, such would indeed be a very good project for the Pigeon Talk members to contribute to...

Hang in there...

Make some calls even around your area to locate anyone raising Foul or Chickens of Turkeys or Horses or Pigs, and or the Farm Supply places...maybe there is a source of Metronidazole near you even if it is some private person...

Your Vet may not necessarily have it on hand, but, they might...or, maybe a Pharmacy might and your Vet could write a perscription for it for you to pick it up, so, you could also call some Pharmacies to see who has it on their shelves...so, either way...wishing Windy and you and Buddy the best...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

Talked to the Vet again and from the description he feels it could be Trich. My appointment is moved to Thursday A.M. now. Holding my breathe. I want a simple solution in the worst way.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

Metronidazole would be one of the medications used for Trich as well. There are resistant strains but sometimes a long course will get 'em anyway. Does the inside of the mouth look all pink and nothing anomalous? 

Pidgey


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## Camrron

The inside of the mouth looks good to me even with a bright lamp on it. I have checked it regularly with the tube-feeds so always felt confident of no Canker. It was Phil or fp who mentioned though that it could be deeper in the system and not visible by sight. Systemic Canker possibly? Deep in the throat?

We will know soon enough thank goodness.

This new Vet is incredible though. Really well educated and very interested in my case. We had a long and interesting conversation about Windy and I think he was a little surprised by my knowledge of bird illness etc. That's a big thanks to all you guys you know. 

So much for my temporary holiday from PT eh Pidgey. I never even lasted 12 hours. Guess I'm back. Your words of wisdom were what I needed to hear. Thanks as always!

BTW, I did the vent check/cloaca and belly and there does not seem to be any evidence of an egg developing. I was very gentle of course, not wanting to upset anything but both Buddy and Windy seemed virtually identical physically. She is actually a bit smaller than him even though I always though she was bigger for some reason.

Cameron


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


I think of 'Canker' as making the little Throat-thingies...and as being one expression or manifestation or Colonizeing activity and localle, of the little Trichomonads' opportunisms or imperialisms.

While I think of 'Trichomoniasis' as being the rest of, or any of many other possible expressions or localls and Colonizeing mischiefs...which will be in various deeper digestive places or in other Organs or even getting warded off in Abcesses I think.


Anyway, glad to hear your Vet both sounds very cool, AND likes to hear you have informed and interested and germain things to say...this is 'ideal' and can make a big difference for you and your Vet in good ways. 

And, because you have such a good attitude in all this, it will make it fun for your Vet too, instead of 'merely' his or her usual situations of Creature victims being presented by customers/owners/caretakers who, however nice as people, are far away from any terminology or familiarity on what is going on with their Creature.


This way, in effect, it leans toward working 'with' someone...which is a different, and likely more priveledged and vitalized mode...

So, ideally, there is Windy, you and your Vet, or in whatever order, all working 'with' eachother...

She is a strong Bird and she has been through many things...

The Trichomoniasis should be a strightforward matter to be dealt with, and, if there is any suggestion of it being some 'resistant' mode, or if it is not 'gone' in a week...I can send you some of my 'Berimax' which will eliminate resistant strains as well as ordinary strains of Trichomonads just as nice as pie, as well as it is good for much else too...

In fact, do some 'googles' on it ( I lost all my links! sorry...) and print out the salient parts for your Vet and you and Windy to mull over, and, if you all agree it sounds like a good one for her to do, or for her to begin doing in say a week or so, as a successor on principle or for prudance after whatever else the week has in store...after whatever initial regimins...as a sort of follow up or clean up run...I will send you enough for a few weeks worth of treatment, but it may take a week to get there...

It is easy on them, and friendly to their systems, as well as a very good means of killing off all sorts of 'undersireable' micro-organisms systemically, yet, it leaves the 'desireable' ones be...

For now though of course, old Mr. Metronidazole should be invited to roll up his sleeves, tilt his Hat back, and do his kindness...and, whatever else your Vet thinks wise or prudent...


Windy is one ( "1" ) lucky Hen-Pigeon gal to have your Love and interest and devotion...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron

Thank you Phil,

Thankyou very much for your kind offer. Thursday is the big day for us. I have my fingers crossed and am hoping for the best now. I feel really confident of a solution now too. Windy is a strong bird. Always attentive and alert if not so much confused at times by what I am doing. But she is still flying around at times and her boyfriend of course does not have the time of day for me anymore. Buddy guards the nest like it's the Space Shuttle the day before launch. You know what I mean. He's serious.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks

Camrron said:


> Thank you Phil,
> 
> Thankyou very much for your kind offer. Thursday is the big day for us. I have my fingers crossed and am hoping for the best now. I feel really confident of a solution now too. Windy is a strong bird. Always attentive and alert if not so much confused at times by what I am doing. *But she is still flying around at times and her boyfriend of course does not have the time of day for me anymore. Buddy guards the nest like it's the Space Shuttle the day before launch. You know what I mean. He's serious.*
> Cameron


Gee, Cameron, do you think it's a MALE TERRITORIAL THING??  When it comes to the ladies, being your "buddy" goes right out the window! YOU are a threat to his male possessiveness. Funny how dynamics change with males when a female appears on the scene! Sorry, but I'm ROFL... 

However, in ALL seriousness, I sure hope Windy will get the proper meds and gets rid of whatever is getting her down! Sounds like you have a great Vet - that sure helps a lot!


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## Pidgey

Camrron,

You do realize that when they're nesting, they do get into an odd posture that almost looks like crouching sickness? They'll sometimes spend an awful lot of time doing that. It'd be funny if we weren't following a true sickness by now but more our own neuroses. And don't think for a minute that that hasn't happened before.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

She doesn't eat on her own though Pidgey.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

And this is the difficult symptom--if you feed them for too long, they sometimes seem to forget how for awhile after you stop. That's why a scale and some patience can sometimes be very useful.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Ok. I have taken her off feed this morning and until I see the vet anyway. She threw up almost all of her last meal which I found this morning when I went to get her and the poops are about as bad as I have ever seen. Without good medical intervention at this point I think that this is otherwise just near the end of the road for her.

Cameron


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## TAWhatley

I'm so sorry Windy is having such a rough time of it .. I know it is stressing you immensely too. Perhaps the soaked puppy or kitten kibble might work to keep her going until the vet appointment ??

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

Cameron, keep your chin up. We're all pulling for you and Windy. 

Maggie


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## Pidgey

If the white blood cell count goes way up then you can start experiencing autoimmune disorders where the body begins to attack itself. "Metronidazole is able to modify cell mediated immunity so as to normalize excessive immune reactions, especially in the large intestine." I have said before that in the instance of Trichomoniasis, it is the individual's excessive immune response that is the real problem, not the actual protozoa. Sometimes, the important thing to do is to teach the body how to live in peace with an organism instead of declaring nuclear war on it. And that doesn't just apply to Trich, it can be for many other disease processes.

This medication (Metronidazole) may bring the probable inflammation of the bowel back to a manageable level for whatever it is that's bothering the bird. And it might not be a bad idea to withhold food for a couple of days. Pigeons are far and away tougher than all other birds.

The other possibility is a systemic antifungal like Itraconazole or Ketoconazole if the Candida was real high originally. Did this bird ever run a course of oral Nystatin (a topical 'contact antifungal' that is not absorbed into the system from the GI)?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Hi Cameron,

I don't know why, but I have just now read this thread. I am sorry to hear Windy is not doing well.

One our birds, a budgie, this time was not feeling herself for a number of days. She had completely stopped eating and the drugs the vet recommended where really not having much of an affect. I tried fresh Aloe Vera, the breeder one of our larger birds really believes in it. Our budgie soon made a dramatic turn around and is right now down in her cage chattering away. I looked for some links to reference what I am saying, one of them sounds as if my breeder wrote it, so maybe this is common knowledge among breeders. To make it I cut about 1/2" of fresh aloe, I did use whole aloe although some recommend to peel it (my breeders suggestion) and in a shallow dish I crushed it with a little, about a table spoon, of filtered water and dosed.

I absolutely believe in allopathic medicines, traditional medicines our vets prescribe, but I also believe that nature provides a number of substances that can be very beneficial to our birds.

http://www.yourparrotplace.com/parrot_articles/aloe_for_birdkeepers.htm

http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/MWALE.pdf

http://www.wellvet.com/candida.html

http://www.avianweb.com/homeremedies.htm

Cameron, treating with Aloe at worse will do no harm and at best may really help her right now. Just my thoughts and I hope she recovers soon.

Ron


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## Pidgey

They've never come up with anything that's better for a mild burn than aloe. You could consider inflammation of the intestines to be a similar circumstance.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Thank you everyone. I have decided not to do anything more except keep Windy hydrated until I have the tests tomorrow. No food, no meds, no seed-pops or anything else. I need some straight facts before I intervene anymore.

Cameron


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


She is in my prayers for a nice, straightforward recovery...and getting back into more fun with Buddy..! 

Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feather

Cameron,
Indeed....we are all pulling for Windy. Sincere wishes for a fast recovery. We'll be thinking of you tomorrow.

Feather


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Cameron, 

Yes, good luck today at the vet's and keep us informed. I hope that the vet will be able to identify a problem and get her on some proper meds. It's really no fun wondering, guessing and medicating for the sake of it. 

Sending positive thoughts yours and Windy's way,


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## Maggie-NC

Cameron, any news?

Maggie


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## Camrron

*I'm back from Windy's appointment..*

Hi all,

I just got in from being at the Vet's for Windy's appointment. They were really great people. The Vet asked what tests I might be willing to have done and I just said, let's do them all, whatever it takes. I don't need to tell you guys how attached I am to this little bird of mine. Now it's just waiting for results. Tomorrow the first will be ready.

I had Windy up to the University of Saskatchewan where I just found out recently that they have Avian Veterinarian specialists in their small animal clinic. I actually had two doctors, both avian vets, examine Windy and they were very thorough, attentive to her and knowledgeable. I could not have asked for a better or friendlier reception. We were in there the better part of an hour. That good bedside manner too was probably really more for me than for Windy but I really appreciated it. Windy was a trooper though, and took all the poking and prodding without too much complaint.

The clinic is quite a facility by the way. If you have ever walked into a place that just gives you a tremendous sense of confidence from the time you go through the doors you will know what I mean.

Well, about the exam. Throat swabs were taken as the vet thought he could see some greyish plaques deep inside her throat. There is no way I would have been able to detect them with a bright lamp as they were too far down. Windy's crop was also evacuated and samples taken for a culture but that could take a week to be completed. The vet did say there was a milky colored substance that came out of her crop. I am not sure what that could be but I should have asked if it was pigeon milk since she has not eaten anything in over 24 hours now. It's been water only for a day and a half.

A fecal was also collected but that test will only be done subject to the results of the other tests. Blood tests, CBC were ordered, a fungal aerobic/anaerobic and culture as I mentioned. Not sure what the fungal is. I can only absorb so much at one time and I am a little brain addled right now as it is.

Seems there could be several things going on at the same time including the formation of an egg which can make clinical observations of symptoms more difficult to determine. Anyway, now I know how to check for an egg by feeling the width of the pelvic bones. Windy's were slightly wide suggesting an egg could be on the way. The vets was really complimentary to me as well, saying that I had done a good job keeping her fed and well hydrated. I also learned how to check the skin for elesticity across the keel so I could check on how hydrated she is. Windy weighs 374 grams which I also found out is just on the average for pigeons. She is nice and fleshy on both sides of the keel but not overweight.

It seems I was wrong about seeing yellow in the urates. Windy dropped one of her typical bomb's in there and the Vet said that there didn't seem to be anything too abnormal about it so hopefully my fears of liver failure can be forgotten about. 

Her eyes were checked out too. Really thoroughly too I might add. Exept for a hard bump under one eye that is probably old scar tissue they are in perfect order. No weeping, discharge or other anomalies. Her pupils are no longer dilated by the way and that just now reminds me that I totally neglected to mention to the vet that they were at one time. The words crop stasis, anorexia, yeast colonization and the drug Nystatin all came up. Testing will give me the answers on all these things and the treatment to follow.

For now I will continue with no feedings or other meds until tomorrow. Just water. She will be just fine and this could actually be what she needs to cleanse her system a bit too. I was getting uncomfortable stuffing things into her everyday anyway and not knowing if it was helping or hindering. She did vomit a whole peanut yesterday morning too. It means that it had sat in her crop undigested for at least two and a half days. So it's best in my mind to just let everything that's still in her work it's way out of it's own accord.

I just want to mention that the Vet said again it isn't advisable to use Prednisone in birds showing signs of being immuno-compromised because it can allow invasives to colonize and ultimately make a bird sicker. So the Pred is out for sure. Anyway, that's my day. I know you were all wondering but I have a good positive sense that I will have a solution soon. Diagnosis is on the way and my Vets are on top of it. My hats off to them for their professionalism and sincere interest in Windy's issues and the outcome.

All the best,

Cameron


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## Pidgey

Well, that sounds rather complete. It's rare that they get that kind of treatment at most vets. A full history is often taken so they often ask a lot of questions and it never seems like you can remember it all at the time. Incidentally a peanut can literally plug the hole at the bottom of the crop and cause problems. Usually that's what you get with roasted peanuts and/or too small of a bird.

Well done!

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Cameron, 

WOW, what an update! This clinic and the vets do sound to be top notch!...excellent. There is nothing like having confidence in those who are looking after either ourselves or our animals.

It's nice to know what Windy weighs as well so that we can gage just how thin or otherwise she was. Great news on the pupils/eyes being ok too.

Fungal problems can develop from foods, such as peanuts. I believe Phil had mentioned this to you before. These peanuts you were feeding her, they weren't roasted were they? Other seeds that are mouldy can cause problems as well.

All in all it sounds like you're going to get some results this time. You must have spent a fortune on all of this. What a guy. 

Keep us updated tomorrow,


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## Camrron

Thanks you guys. No Brad it actually didn't cost all that much because it's a teaching facility and it must be somewhat subsidized. I paid about what blood tests alone were quoted me by another Vet. So my retirement fund is still in good shape.

Good to know about the peanuts Pidgey. I will never do seed-pops with peanuts again....ever! They were raw, shelled and skinless peanuts by the way.

Cameron


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


This all sounds splendid...!

So glad to hear you were able to find and moblize such resources!

I am so envious!

Yes...the 'Peanut'...


This might have been in there for much longer even...

I am so glad she threw it up!

Somehow, this has worried me in my own manner of 'worry' - with peanuts...and with Pigeons who might not be quite in the pink of health we think they are or wish they were...

When something, for whatever reason, stays 'in' their Crop, it is going to make problems...


And some Crops, either by individual property, old scarifications effecting the elasticity of their lower constriction, on-going minor inflammation, or what, may not find it easy to pass a Peanut, so, they retain it and it gets nasty then for them...

And, if this happens, whatever traces of Aspergillosis spores may have been on them, have protracted opportunity then to consider or brood about mischiefs, instead of getting digested and eliminated in Stomach Acids in a timely way...

Crops are amazeing Organs, even if technically they are considered 'merely' some widening of the Esophagus. Somehow, I know they (Crops) have their own wisdoms and sensitivities and proceedures which the Books neglect, but which the Birds must abide in earnest.

So...


Anyway...

Best wishes!

Kisses on her head from us all...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo

Hi Cameron,

This news is very good to hear. It seems you have gone to the right place for Windy. 

I know what you mean by teaching hospitals, we have had our birds to the University of Guelph, the veterinary teaching hospital for Ontario. What a top notch place, and I can't say enough about Dr. Mike Taylor there he really knows his stuff.

Please keep us informed.

Ron


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Ron, 

I've heard of the teaching hospital in Guelph too and how they are really on the cutting edge. One of the best for sure


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## Whitefeather

Thanks for update Cameron.  

Sounds like you & Windy had quite an eventful apointment. How wonderful to have such attentive vets caring for her. 

It also sounds like both of you are due for a very relaxing evening.  

Please keep us posted on the test results.

Cindy


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## Camrron

Speaking of cutting edge, I was told by a med student once that veterinarian medicine was easily five years ahead of what's available to people. The reason is that they have the advantage of access to therapies and meds that have to go through years of human trials before release to the public.
Don't know if that's actually true but I was convinced. (I am a little gullible at times too).

Cameron


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## TAWhatley

Great update, Cameron! Sure sounds like you have found the right vets to figure out what's going on with Windy. 

Terry


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## Camrron

Thanks so much Terry, Reti, Cindy, Brad, Phil, Maggie, Feather, Shi, Ron and of course Pidgey.

I will post on this again tomorrow after results. I am keeping my fingers, toes and eyes crossed in the meantime. You guys really are the best of friends you know. Till later,

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC

Cameron, thank you so much for the update. Keeping fingers crossed for good results. It always helps me when I know a vet has done everything they can to find a cause and treatment.

Our vet school that I have been able to take 2 birds to have a unique policy. If I am remembering it correctly, I signed the birds over to the vet school and they treated for free; if I didn't I would be charged. If they can help the bird then they return it to you, otherwise, if it cannot be saved, it is euthanized. 

Maggie


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## Camrron

I have heard of that kind of policy Maggie. Fortunately I have never had to make those tough decisions yet. To rehab at home vrs risk giving the animal up to others who may just put it down. I think now though, knowing what I know, I would try to rehab on my own if I felt the agency was going to put the animal away. Veterinarian's in general have often left me bewildered by their willingness to PTS pets and injured animals without much discussion really. Maybe it goes with the territory. Economics is always at play here.

Anyway. Windy is doing well and flying around today. She has begun eating in the last hour. I have not given her any food though either. This is day three, fluids only. All the blood test could tell me was that she has no systemic infection although her white cell count is depressed. No Trich showed up on the scope so all we have left now is the culture which will take a week + to finalize. The vet felt strongly though that Windy may have been poisoned and suggested a corn bait called Avatrol could have been the culprit. It would explain most of her symptoms to date. This poison is sold in town and is used to eliminate "pest" birds. 

I was also told that if this is indeed the case then only supportive care will pull Windy through it until she starts to eat and drink on her own. So I will start her on food again in the a.m. if she still doesn't eat normally then.

Cameron.


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Cameron, 


Thank you...for this much awaited update! I was getting ready to ask you what were the results if you'd heard back. Poisoning could very well explain a lot of things. In this case, rest and recuperative care is needed and good food and nutrition. If you ever hear or get a case like this again, you need to give activated charcoal to the bird and flush with liquids like you've been doing.

I'm happy to hear that Windy is better today though, for whatever reason!


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for the update, Cameron. I'm so glad Windy seems to be feeling a bit better. Poisoning would certainly explain a lot of what's been going on. Avitrol is extremely nasty stuff.

Terry


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## Pidgey

The pet store called me once with a pigeon that was in a seizure. I got there and it was a full clonic-tonic seizure (full body spasms that extend the legs backward and contort the neck). It was way too late for that bird--the dose was too high. It would have required an extreme muscle relaxant like Atropine (BellaDonna) and the activated charcoal. 

He died before I got him home so I did a necropsy and found that the crop was absolutely stuffed with the poisoned feed. He had been walking drunkenly around the parking lot earlier about an hour. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have literally cut into the crop for emergency evacuation and then worked in the charcoal and a muscle relaxant. And the chances would still be low but at least not zero.

Pidgey wasn't really my first rescue--I did pick one up that was walking around town drunkenly some 20 years ago. I kept him for three days while he got better. I always thought back then that he was the most beautiful pigeon that I'd ever seen with mottled white, gray and green coloring. I was sure that he'd been poisoned but fortunately it was a small enough dose that he was okay to release less than a week later.

Pidgey


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## Reti

Thank you for the update, Cameron.
If indeed it is posisoning it might take a long time until she recovers. My Victoria was depressed for a long time. I didn't have to feed her though, she hated me touching her, she still does, so I let her eat on her own, which was only enough for her to survive. On top of it she had a yeast infection which slowed her recovery even more.
Luckily she never showed any signs of syptoms or illness for a year and a half now.

Reti


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## Camrron

I can hardly tell you how upset I feel when I read your stories about pigeons being poisoned. How can anyone do that to another creature. I am not familiar with this at all, and really never considered it at all but I thought all that went out with the last generation. Didn't we learn our lessons from the Mercury, DDT and PCB scares in the past. It is a crime to poison any animal. I am disgusted I live in a city that allows it to go on.

Are we really third world here or are we enlightened yet.

Last year we had someone here in Saskatoon (still unknown I think) putting poison in hot dogs in the parks to kill local dogs. There is a special hell for those who take the time to kill other peoples family pets. And I hope they get just what they deserve.

Cameron


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## Camrron

Thanks Reti,

There is a little good news tonight. Buddy had a bath in the water dish and Windy tried jumping in with him. It was actually a sweet sight. They bite each others beaks and do a kind of handshake. I think I would call it kissing. It goes on for a few minutes then she pecks at his neck till he leaves. Is that pigeon love? 

Cameron


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## Pidgey

She put a real beak-lock on 'im, eh? Yeah, that's true pigeon luuuvvvv! It's more practical than you think though, they exchange crop fluids and it synchs up their systems to give pigeon milk at the right time when the eggs hatch.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Pidgey, Can you elaborate a little. When does it start? Does the timing indicate when an egg will show? Will Buddy make milk too? 

These two birds have me in a constant conflict of emotions between things going right and things going wrong and things that are pigeon nature. It's getting to be a hair pulling event. I did get a challenge when I got her. More so than with Buddy. It's been a chance to learn about birds and make friends isn't it.

Since getting the Vets advice tonight though I will not worry about the exchange of fluids etc. If Windy did suffer a poisoning then Buddy is at no real risk fom her. Both have been treated with Ivomec which in my mind was the single biggest risk to Buddy (worms) of all. Love will prevail and a sweet love it is. I would like to say they spend each night tucked into the nest. It is not the case though. Windy sits on the nest and Buddy roosts nearby in a sort of protective stance, always ready to tell me off if I get up in the middle of the night for a glass of water or a snack. So it goes. 
pigeon love is sweet indeed isn't it.

Cameron.


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## Pidgey

Pigeon milk is different from real milk. It's produced by cells sloughing off inside the crop and is regurgitated for the chick by both the mom and dad. The process of making it begins several days before the chicks hatch and peaks at the point of hatching. It tapers off over a ten-day period until the chicks are only eating regurgitated, hydrated seeds and water.

What you're seeing is absolutely normal behavior, including the separation at night where the hen sits in the nest and the cock stands guard from afar.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Thanks Pidgey,

That's interesting to me. Everytime I see something that to me is new and fascinating then you or someone else has already seen it and knows what it means already. 

Sometimes I don't feel sure about posting my observations. I feel they will be too left field or something. I am seeing these behaviors for the first time so I hope you will all understand that. 

So my birds *are* in love! Who would not enjoy that eh?

Cameron.


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## pdpbison

Hi Cameron,


Wow...

Have they any conclusive way to say if 'Avitrol' is what had compromised her?

Well, golly...

Glad Windy is doing some pecking now! Hope to hear of more of it, tomorrow...!

Wish her 'Bon Appetite'! from me...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley

*Pigeons Kissing = Billing*

Hi Cameron,

It is so touching to read about your observations of Buddy and Windy. Here's another term for you .. billing .. I think that is what you are seeing and identifying as kissing .. pretty darned close.

Came across this link that may be of interest .. there is a paragraph on billing and cooing .. halfway down or so: http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1998/6/pigeons.cfm

Terry


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## pdpbison

Yahhhh...

Thic cracks me up when I need to call some company and speak to their 'Billing' Department...some of of course is pictureing amorous Pigeons in sweet gestures, rather than, say, Accounts managers and so on...

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley

pdpbison said:


> Yahhhh...
> 
> Thic cracks me up when I need to call some company and speak to their 'Billing' Department...some of of course is pictureing amorous Pigeons in sweet gestures, rather than, say, Accounts managers and so on...
> 
> Lol...
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Good one, Phil!

Terry


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## mr squeaks

GREAT to hear about the best LOVE relationship in ALL Canada!  

I'm sorry to hear that Windy might have been poisoned but I'm sure she will make a FULL recovery under your gentle hands!

When it comes to the mistreatment of animals and birds, I believe in Capitol Punishment! But, that is ONLY because, at this time, we are unable to have the culprit EXPERIENCE what their victum(s) did. Now, THAT would be JUSTICE!

Do ask ANY questions! I'm always finding new information: the latest being about the crop milk. Thanks, Pidgey!


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