# Sick Pigeon, need help.



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi everyone,

I found a pigeon in my yard two days ago. I brought it in and weighed the bird, the poor thing only weighs approx. 200 grams. I have been giving the bird pedialyte and observed it eat and drink the first day. This is the second day and the bird's weight has me worried. I have offered it every type of food(pigeon mix, peanuts) it just picks at them with little appetite. I attempted to give the bird Kaytee Hand Feeding Formula but the bird fought me every step of the way. The bird is puffed up and the droppings are kind of a muddy green with urates white to slightly yellowish. I checked down the throat and see no yellow bumps. Can anyone offer any advice as I am trying everthing I can to help this bird survive. 

Thanks Vesna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Chances are that he's sick with something that's taken him down over some time. Do you have any medications?

Pidgey


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi Pidgey,

I have approx. 5-6 baytril tablets (15mg) I believe I also have some Sulmet liquid(must locate) and some Ronidazole tablets.


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

I was also able to locate some amoxicillin capsules.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You'll need to try and break the Baytril tablets up into five pieces for each tablet and give him one piece in the morning and one in the evening. Probably go one-half of the Ronidazole tablet. We could also give some of the Sulmet in case he's got Coccidiosis. You're not going to want to feed him too much formula at a whack because he's emaciated and that's dangerous territory. He's going to possibly be able to handle about one level teaspoon of KayTee Exact Hand Feeding Formula powder diluted with two level teapoons of water, three times per day at the most right about now. If you can get him under a heat lamp as close as one foot away but that he can get out from under it if he needs to, that'd probably be real good for him.

Try to count the breaths per minute--you may have to watch the tail bobbing to count them.

Pidgey


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thanks Pidgey,

I don't have a heat lamp but have kept the bird on a heating pad with room to move off if needed. The bird really fights me on the hand feeding formula.
Is it safe to have the bird on all these medications at the same time? I"m a little worried because of it's weight. Thank you again for your help.

Vesna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Unfortunately, it's kinda' unsafe not having him on all those medications at the same time, under the circumstances--that means that since you don't know what's been killing him up to this point, then you've got to either find out or fire a full spread of torpedoes trying to hit it. It could even be worms, you know, and we haven't even started on a wormer. Baytril, when given in the correct dosage, doesn't seem to be too hard on them and neither do the anti-canker medications. Sulmet's pretty easy on them as well.

They're never particularly happy with being tube-fed but the key there is restraint plus getting the neck straightened out while the tube's going down. I've got large hands and there's not a lot they can do about it when I've got them in my lap. If you have to, you can wrap the bird in a towel with the legs back and the wings folded and it'll be easier to manage. That's affectionately called the "bird burrito" around here.

Pidgey


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

I do have Worm-Out, the one that comes in the Foy's medicine chest. I am not able to see any blood in the poops but they are a muddy colour. Would a bird with worms always have blood visible in the poops?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, that's usually because of Capillaria (sometimes called "threadworms" or "hairworms" because they're very small; they suck blood). Roundworms can kill a bird mostly due to starvation but don't traumatize the intestines much--they just rob nutrients and, at the worst, block the intestinal "lumen" (the open area) completely, causing food not to be able to pass. So, the bird often eats ravenously, waits a few hours, vomits, and then eats ravenously again. If food is going through then it's better to treat with the other stuff until you're sure the bird's out of danger and then you can start dealing with the wormers. There are some wormers that aren't so hard on the bird but they often make them kinda' nauseated, too.

Pidgey


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thanks again Pidgey. I am going to try and get some food into the bird, I will be back on later and keep you posted.


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi everyone,

I would like to update you on the ill pigeon I found last week. The bird is still only 200 grams, she eats on her own but very poorly. She has spent the last few days puffed up with her eyes mostly closed. I took her to the Vet yesterday and he examined her and could not see anything visibly wrong so he drew blood. He called me this afternoon with the results, he said there appeared to be nothing bacterial wrong but that the bird's proteins were extremely low. He said this can occur in birds with liver problems but that did not appear to be the case because the liver function looked normal from the blood test. He did say certain intestinal disorders or blockages could cause this and said he would not know if it was something viral until tomorrow. He said coninue the baytril and to give the bird about 2 cc's of sugar water to keep it's energy up. He also asked me to bring in a poop sample which I intend to do tomorrow. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions I really want to help this bird.

thanks


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm so sorry that your pij is still having problems!

Our more knowledgeable members will be along soon, I'm sure.

Perhaps the fecal exam with shed light on what might be happening! In which case, a more specific med will be able to help.

Wishing your little one ALL THE BEST!

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you for your kind wishes.

I too hope someone can help this sweetie.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let me ask you another question... is this an adult bird of indeterminate age?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The reason that I'm asking is because I have one that was very thin and sick when I found it. After two weeks of Baytril, Metronidazole and a week on Corid, the bird was still doing very poorly with no appetite (I maintained tube feeding of Kaytee) and its wings were drooping. I finally started and kept it on a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo (like Cotrim, Bactrim and several other names) for a couple of weeks. She finally got better enough to eject a rotten egg that had probably been in her for at least a month and had been making her sick. The Trimethoprim/Sulfa works very well penetrating necrotic tissue and that kind of stuff. She's out in the loft now and it's been about six months but it took her a month before she finally turned the corner and started getting better. I also believe that the Trimethoprim/Sulfa finished out what the Baytril couldn't do.

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo (like Cotrim, Bactrim and several other names)
> Pidgey


Pardon, does this mean that Trimethoprim/Sulfa = Bactrim or Cotrim?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi vesna, 


...might be a good idea to treat for Canker, even though none is visible in the Throat.


The yellowish Urates, and liver-kidney troubles might be arising from Canker somewhere in his system...


Phil


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi Pidgey,

I am unable to determine the bird's age but it seems to be to be an adult, it does have mature colouring (purple and green around the neck) I do not have any of the drugs you mentioned. I thought I had sulmet but I was unable to locate it. The bird does tend to hunch over with a droop to the wings, I am going to try and feed it now. I could try and order some medication from Foy's, I will have to see if they are able to ship cross border.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

TheSnipes said:


> Pardon, does this mean that Trimethoprim/Sulfa = Bactrim or Cotrim?


Yup....among other names....Tribissen, Septra, Sulfatrim

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you Phil for the advice,

I am giving her Ronidazol 10% powder in her drinking water, along with baytril. I divide the dosage in 4 to make a smaller quantity. It calls for 1tsp. to 1 gallon so I mix 1/4 tsp to 945 ml. It says to give it for five days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vesna, 



Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...what does their Crop seem like?

...does it seem empty? Does it seem like it has anything sodden in it?


The posture you mention, while possible frommany sorts of illness...remindedme of Candida or Yeast infections...


Just for prudence sake, if their Crop is empty, palpate and gently pinch it and so on and see if you can feel any sort of object in there...


If they act like this is painful for them, it would sort of confirm a probable Candida or Yeast infection in the Crop...but they can have it further down too of course...


Phil
l v


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi Phil,

I believe her crop would be fairly empty because she doesn't eat an awful lot.
I pinched the area and it seems like a hard little rock. She found it slightly uncomfortable. She just received her evening dose of Baytril, I will be heading off to sleep and will get up to check on her through the night. I am hoping to take a poop sample to the Vet in the morning. What is the best way to collect one? Do they have to be fresh or can I use one I collected tonight? 

Thanks again


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna said:


> .....
> I pinched the area and it seems like a hard little rock. She found it slightly uncomfortable. ........ Do they have to be fresh or can I use one I collected tonight?
> 
> ...


Vesna, the area that seems hard like a rock, how big is this? Is it a specific
lump or an overall area?

Fresh is better for some things and not necessary for others. 

fp


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

That reminds me of a little pigeon I attempted to assist once... His crop was extremely hard and flat on one side. Bumpy. Almost swollen-looking, but flat against the skin and hard. The skin seemed almost shriveled. While the other side of his crop was puffy and, when you shone a light up to it, appeared yellow, the other side appeared red. 

The baby pigeon, about 2 weeks old, died just a day after these symptoms appeared. He also became very lethargic. THEN, before dying, began to lose balance, and kept falling over on his side. He was also rather underdeveloped. He died open-mouthed breathing, some sort of yellowish fluid coming up through his mouth... I believe he aspirated it, as well. His breathing was bad, crackly, and he also had very bad breath. Anything you fed him would not go down properly, and would come right back up. 

Now I don't think this is related, but it does seem like a crop problem. Quick question..Could this have been some sort of yeast infection or something? I was just wondering, as you were talking about the possibility of this case being a yeast infection in the crop.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vesna said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I believe her crop would be fairly empty because she doesn't eat an awful lot.
> I pinched the area and it seems like a hard little rock. She found it slightly uncomfortable. She just received her evening dose of Baytril, I will be heading off to sleep and will get up to check on her through the night. I am hoping to take a poop sample to the Vet in the morning. What is the best way to collect one? Do they have to be fresh or can I use one I collected tonight?
> ...


Hi Vesna, 


Make sure you are not locating the forward bend of her Neck by accident..! which will usually be at the sort of upper area just above their Crop...

Otherwise, if there seems to be a 'lump' or hard spot...would you give more details?

How big?

What shape? ( by feel of course, since it is hidden...)

Where exactly?




Poop samples can be folded neatly in plastic film while fresh, and, refrigerated till they can be brought to the Vet for the test...and should be as fresh as possible. 


Anyway, they can get abcesses in their Crops, I imagine from some initial injury or puncture or other, as well as getting foreign objects in their Crops, which foreign objects of course are very dangerous for them, and are best removed or got out a.s.a.p.

Canker in the Crop, foreign objects in the Crop, or Candida in the Crop, often have the Pigeon assume a sort of 'Penguin Posture' and or making unusual movements of their Crop while standing straighter than usual...and foreign objects and Candida will ruin usually their interest in eating, ruin their appetite, and sometimes discourage them from drinking also...


Can you post some images?


Are you familiar with the ACV-Water sometimes mentioned here?


Are you in a position to tube feed?




Phil
l v


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi Everyone,

Sorry I have been away from the computer all day. I just wanted to give an update, I took the bird back to the Vet this morning and he was kind enough to show me how to tube feed and lent me the proper items needed. We are feeding the bird with critical care formula twice a day. He did the morning feed and I just did the evening (more practice needed on my part)
I gave him a poop sample and will have to wait until Monday for the results.
The poor bird just stays puffed up in the corner, I am just trying to get it through the weekend at this point. The Vet says it is possible it may have cancer and that would be just heartbreaking, it definitely is having a hard time. I believe the area I was feeling was above the crop, this is the area I found to be hard. I still have much to learn.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Vesna said:


> The Vet says it is possible it may have cancer and that would be just heartbreaking, it definitely is having a hard time. I believe the area I was feeling was above the crop, this is the area I found to be hard. I still have much to learn.


Thanks for the update and for all you are doing to assist this pigeon. Are you sure the vet said cancer or was it perhaps canker (trichomoniasis) If it may be canker, then there are very effective medications available for that.

Terry


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

The Vet did say cancer. I have the bird on a 10% Ronidazol powder now along with baytril.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna said:


> The Vet did say cancer. I have the bird on a 10% Ronidazol powder now along with baytril.


Could be, Ronidazol is a canker med, though. Can you see the hard spot from
the outside of the neck? Is it like a lump w/a yellowish cast to it? That's a pretty common area for canker to occur.

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

I started the canker medicine myself, just to be cautious. I do not notice any lump visible from the outside but I will check again in the morning when I have better light.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna said:


> I started the canker medicine myself, just to be cautious. I do not notice any lump visible from the outside but I will check again in the morning when I have better light.



So when you were talking about a hard area, it's not a lump?

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


I think vesna was feeling the Pigeon's Neck Bones, 'Spine', as it bends forward to protrude above the Crop, the lower forward portion of the "S" as it were...of their Neck...when the Pigeon is at rest.



Vesna - 


'Cancer' is a highly improbable prospect for your Bird to have...and unless Blood-Hormone tests or kindred were done to ascertain a diagnosis, I think it is safe to discount it...especially in a feral.


'Fluffed up' does of course signal a need for warmth to be provided, and is typical of endless compromised health conditions they may have...


What are the poops like?


What have they been like so far?


Have you considered to treat for Yeast/Candida?


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Could be, Phil, though I've enquired a couple of times now and am not getting
a clear answer from Vesna. I would be good to know if it is front and center
or to one side or another, or if just the position of the neck as in something
similar to our adam's apple. 

Vesna, was there something specific that the doctor cited as a reason for
the speculation that it might be cancer? I suppose ferals are exposed to 
carcinogenic substances in their daily routines, it's just an unusual diagnosis
especially w/out any tests or outstanding/unusual symptoms.

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello,

Sorry I seem to come and go but I try to reply as often as I can. The Vet checked the blood for anything bacterial and viral both came back negative.
I guess the reason he says possibly cancer is because the bird's protein levels are low and so far he cannot see why. I gave him a poop sample on Friday so I have to wait until Monday to find out the results. I believe the hard area I was feeling is say something similar to our adam's apple. I am not too familiar with a bird's anatomy I thought this was the crop but I believe the crop is a bit lower. I am tube feeding the bird with critical care twice a day and the bird does drink and peck at a few seeds on its own but it is still so thin, very sharp keel. I only have the Baytril and Ronidazol which I am using but it does not appear to be helping. I appreciate your thoughts and advice as I am very willing but not overly experienced with sick pigeons


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna, thanks for caring for this bird, and yes that does clear some questions
up. No matter what the skill level is, this is a lucky bird that you care and are
doing what you are to help.

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you for the kind words feralpigeon. I am trying to help the bird through the weekend and hoping something shows up with the poop sample. If not I will have to try to get some different medications. I feel bad that so far nothing seems to be helping.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your welcome, and I hope that you get some encouraging news come Monday
from your vet.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vesna said:


> Hello,
> 
> Sorry I seem to come and go but I try to reply as often as I can. The Vet checked the blood for anything bacterial and viral both came back negative.
> I guess the reason he says possibly cancer is because the bird's protein levels are low and so far he cannot see why. I gave him a poop sample on Friday so I have to wait until Monday to find out the results. I believe the hard area I was feeling is say something similar to our adam's apple. I am not too familiar with a bird's anatomy I thought this was the crop but I believe the crop is a bit lower. I am tube feeding the bird with critical care twice a day and the bird does drink and peck at a few seeds on its own but it is still so thin, very sharp keel. I only have the Baytril and Ronidazol which I am using but it does not appear to be helping. I appreciate your thoughts and advice as I am very willing but not overly experienced with sick pigeons




Hi Vesna, 



What is 'critical care' composed of? I am not familiar with it...


I would definitely recommend you consider to have him on the famous ACV-Water...( Three Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of plain Water ) for his drinking Water and his formula mixing Water...


Keep him definitely 'warm'...


A Tetracycline might be worth a try...if you can get any.


Any Farm or Feed Stores in your area?

I forgot, where are you?


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello,

Keeping an eye on the little one and noticed the poor thing is now throwing up (twice). I am located in Hamilton, Ontario. She is puffed up and shivering. I do have some feed stores just outside of the city but they are closed on sundays. The Vet gave me the critical care in a small container of his own so I have no idea of the ingredients. I can start the ACV water in the morning, can I still add the Ronidazol to this or is that not a good idea.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vesna,



Probably this - 

http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=4&pnum=A2A7I


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vesna,



Probably this - 

http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=4&pnum=A2A7I



ACV-Water has advatages generally, and for any situation of Crop troubles or undesireable Bacteria, as well as in any situation where Yeast or Candida troubles may be present...or hinted of.

Diminished immune systems can occasion Yeast or Candida to create problems in addition to whatever else was already going on.


These just of themselves can be lethal...and in earlier phases, will make for a listless, wilty, depressed Bird, usually standing in odd postures and making odd Crop movements, but can also be further in where these might not occur.


Throwing up...

Hmmmm...


I would do the ACV-Water for sure...and it will not hurt anything, so may as well.

What have the Urates been looking like?

What have the poops been looking like?


Is his Throat clear?

Is his Throat 'pink'? or reddish? or 'dark'?


There are illnesses which can cause them to throw up but I do not have any real ideas which ones.

Viruses can do it...


I wish I had more to offer..!


Oye...


I have a good feeling about the "Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo (like Cotrim, Bactrim and several other names)" which Pidgey mentioned earlier.


These darned Week-ends of course...but, my intuition is that if you can get this from your Vet on Monday, it may be well worth trying.


He has hung on for a week now thereabouts...but it is a presentation which does not seem to have enough defining attributes for anyone here to have been able to get much of a handle on it.


Probably Bacterial I would guess...which is why I was earlier thinking some Tetracycline which one can get at Farm and Feed stores here in the States anyway...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

See this - might be germain -


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=23600


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna, symptomatic relief can be had w/2-3 drops of Pepto Bismal down the
throat, though whatever caused the vomiting will still need to be addressed.
The most common causes cited in the avian medical books I have would be 
canker (Trichomonas), bacterial, or parasites (worms)....though yeast
could also be an issue, just not cited as commonly. I would continue w/the
course of Ronidazol until the recommended days are complete until switching
over to ACV in the water. If the bird responds unfavorably to ACV in the water, then cut back on the ACV to one or two TBLS per gallon of water. Your vet should be able to see budding yeast in a fecal if yeast is at the bottom of this bird's health problems. If the bird has respiratory symptoms, Tetracycline is a good choice of medications. Treating for known issues that pigeons have and giving good food and water alongside cage rest is sometimes all that is needed. Dependant on how long a bird has been compromised by infections of whichever source, they frequently will come around though some take longer than others.

fp


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

I appreciate everyones advice and help but sadly my little one passed away this morning. I saw she was having difficulties so I stayed with her through the night. I fed her at 8:00 pm last night and she seemed o.k. then I stayed up watching over her and noticed her throwing up around midnight. She actually threw up three times. I offered her a drink and she refused so I watched over her the rest of the night keeping her warm. She remained on her feet keeping fairly good balance all night but this morning she was having trouble remaining on her feet so I placed her on a towel in my arms and offered her a drink. She accepted but I noticed she seemed weak, soon after she started to breathe with her mouth open and I knew I was losing her. I wanted her to die peacefully in my arms and I must say for not having her for very long I loved her and I am so sad, she was a very sweet and gentle bird. I truly hoped I could help her through the weekend and maybe the poop sample taken on friday would lead to an answer. I wish I could of done more. I want to thank all who helped especially Pidgey, Feralpigeon and Phil. I'm sure the Vet will be calling me tomorrow, maybe with some type of result, but for my little sweetie it's too late.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna, how sad for you to lose her after all of your efforts, but we just never
know. You were so generous w/her of your time and resources, I know she 
felt the umbrella of love and safety you lifted for her. Please let us know 
what your vet has to say. I'm so sorry for your loss.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Vesna, I'm sorry to read this. You have worked so hard to try to save this little one. That was a wonderful thing you did to stay with her during her final hours and give her warmth and, most of all, love.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vesna, 



Oh heck...

I am so sorry


Good try...


These darned ambiguous presentations are so vexsome sometimes


Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Oh Vesna, I'm so sorry you lost your little one. You did everything you possibly could and she made her transition in love and warmth. Thank you so much for caring for her as you did.

Margaret


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry, Vesna. Bless you for trying and giving this little one a safe, warm, and loved place to be at the end.

Terry


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## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you all for your sympathies. My sadness is even greater today as the Vet callled this morning and told me my little pigeon was full of worms. I feel so guilty because I had Worm-out but had no idea worms were the problem. I could have easily treated her had a stool sample been taken sooner. I failed her terribly.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Vesna, you did not fail this little one. You gave her love, warmth, kindness, and care she could never have gotten otherwise. I know you made her passing so much better and peaceful.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Vesna said:


> Thank you all for your sympathies. My sadness is even greater today as the Vet callled this morning and told me my little pigeon was full of worms. I feel so guilty because I had Worm-out but had no idea worms were the problem. I could have easily treated her had a stool sample been taken sooner. I failed her terribly.



Hi Vesna, 

Please don't feel guilty, you had no way of knowing what was happening w/your rescue. Frequently, when rehabbers get ferals in, we treat them for the 'known devils'. This would be worms, coccidiosis and canker, if you keep a sulpha medication on hand such as Trimethoprim Sulpha (Bactrim, Septra and various other trade names), a course of it will treat for Coccidiosis and anaerobic bacteria as well. Following a treatment course like this will cover
the most common health problems that the ferals encounter, then you can
move forward from there. Baytril is great to have on hand as well.

I don't use 4 in one meds, but I know others
who do. Pigeonperson uses one put out by Vita King, there is a link to
VitaKing in the Resource Section in the Pigeon Supply House sticky. The
other option for you being in Canada might be to look into some of the Feed and Grain stores and see what they have on hand. Most of them have meds
on hand that can be used for pigeons.

You gave this bird alot of care and support, don't regret the past.

fp


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2007)

Vesna,

I don't think anyone here can say that you could have saved this bird even if you had used a wormer. You took the bird in on 10/24 and he died a little over a week from then. The fact is that he was emaciated to begin with and that means he had no reserves left to fight with. He had been ill for quite a while before you found him and the only reason you were able to pick him up was because he had nothing left to even fly away. He had no energy left. 

When a bird is so run down from one thing, he is most probably suffering from other ailments too. One illness opens them up to anything that comes along and this can bring the entire house of cards down so worming the bird is not a guarantee of success. Other illnesses might have been there and needed to be addressed.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. We all lose birds no matter how hard we try to bring them around and unfortunately, we all learn from our mistakes of omission and commission so you aren't alone. I really don't think he could have been saved.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well said, pigeonperson...and true.

fp


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