# Sticky  Is This Paratyphoid ??



## TAWhatley

was asked to take a Hungarian Giant House Pigeon in for
treatment by a friend who raises them. Three of his birds are
sick with this. I think what I am seeing is paratyphoid, but would
welcome a confirmation of this and suggested treatment. The 
three birds most affected have been started on Amikacin, high doses, 
and the "boils" have been lanced and drained, cleaned with Betadine,
and packed with antibiotic cream, and lightly bandaged to keep
the area clean. If this is paratyhoid, then what is the "flock" treatment
for this? I can handle individual birds, but am not sure what to 
recommend for the others that have been exposed.


Thank you for any advice and assistance!


http://www.rims.net/Paratyphoid

Terry (Teresa)


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Terry, 

I don't know if what you are seeing is in fact paratyphoid or not. The wing boils would seem to lead in this direction. It's best to have a culture done to be sure because there are different strains of the bacteria and you would need to get the right antibiotic. It would seem baytril or amoxicillan are still your best bets to treat individually however. Here are a few very good links regarding paratyphoid. The first one is from a renowned veterinarian in Canada, the second is just general information. The 3rd link is from Siegels describing the symptoms and then offering treatment options. 

1) http://www.albertaclassic.com/chalmers1.php

2) http://www.pipa.be/artikels/pi-account/paratyphoid.htm

3) http://www.siegelpigeons.com/asked-paratyphoid.html


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## Reti

Hi Terry,

here is what Foy's recommends for Paratyphoid outbreaks;
--if you have an outbreak you should immediately stop breeding
--Drugs proven to work include Cipro, Baytril, Sulpha-trimethoprim, Albon, Sulmet and Aureomycin.

--Another prevention is to acidify the litter. A combination of Sodium Acid Sulfate and Sulfur applied to the floor will work well.

--A tablespoon of vinegar per gallon of drinking water will help control Salmonella from being spread in the water.

--And of course vaccinating HEALTHY birds will prevent any further outbreaks.

Reti


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## re lee

It could be related to. But most often swollen joints weight loss and death happen. I was wondering is it possible parisites .But I was at a racers home about 2 weeks back. His flying team seemed to have cocsd, or parat. And a few birds did have boils on the wings. the birds was off weight also. I gave him sulmet for flock treatment. He did have a mice problem That he need to get under control. I let him know mice can cause alot of health issues. I still wonder on parisites also. I will be checking back with him soon to see if the birds are getting better. Its just his flying team of old birds seperate loft. About 60 birds are down on weight . other lofts are ok.


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## Birdmom4ever

Hi Terry,

You've already gotten good info. I just wanted to add that from what I've read (including a book written by a pigeon vet who also raises homers) Baytril is the drug of choice for treating Paratyphoid. If possible, as Brad said, running some tests to see what strain of bacteria you're dealing with would be good. But even if you can't, Baytril is a good broad-spectrum antibiotic. 

Of course, once the pigeons recover they should be vaccinated with Sal-Bac, which involves an initial vaccination and a booster 3 to 4 weeks later.

We had an outbreak a couple years ago. Didn't see swollen joints, but some diarrhea and we lost a lot of babies in the nest. I treated the whole flock with Baytril and then vaccinated them. So far, we haven't had a problem with it again. I've heard that some pigeons that recover can remain carriers, but that doesn't seem to be the case with our flock. I vaccinate all youngsters and new birds and give yearly boosters. The packaging says every six months, but I can't seem to get around to it more than once a year (we have a lot of birds to vaccinate!). My vet told me these vaccines actually give immunity longer than the packaging says. 

Anyway, best of luck treating your friend's Giant House pigeons.


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## TAWhatley

Thank you everyone for your responses about this. My apologies for being MIA all day .. just too many rescues to arrange, coordinate, and take in the sick and wounded. I have been reading posts and am up on that count but haven't been able to respond until now and am still waiting for two more incoming this evening.

Anyway, the big beauty is some better today, so I will continue treatment .. have restocked Baytril today and given the first dose of that .. a double dose actually.

Will keep you posted, and thank you all again!

Terry


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## feralpigeon

TAWhatley said:


> was asked to take a Hungarian Giant House Pigeon in for
> treatment by a friend who raises them. Three of his birds are
> sick with this. I think what I am seeing is paratyphoid, but would
> welcome a confirmation of this and suggested treatment. The
> three birds most affected have been started on Amikacin, high doses,
> and the "boils" have been lanced and drained, cleaned with Betadine,
> and packed with antibiotic cream, and lightly bandaged to keep
> the area clean. If this is paratyhoid, then what is the "flock" treatment
> for this? I can handle individual birds, but am not sure what to
> recommend for the others that have been exposed.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any advice and assistance!
> 
> 
> http://www.rims.net/Paratyphoid
> 
> Terry (Teresa)



Hi Terry,

I looked in all the supply houses that I know of and using search engine, I typed in Amikacin and got no listing for it. Is this the correct spelling, and 
could this product be listed under something else?? Just curious especially 
after your recent success with this under the thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9883 

Thanks,

fp


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## TAWhatley

FP .. Amikacin is a broad spectrum antibiotic. The paratyphoid birds were started on it because that is all I had that I thought would be potent enough on the first day. The birds were switched to Baytril which is really the drug of choice for paratyphoid. 

One of the local avian certified vets in my area uses Amikacin for many, many things .. my own vet prefers Cipro (the human version of Baytril). Baytril was definitely the way to go on this one.

If anyone else gets such a bad case of paratyphoid, do NOT try to lance and drain the boils. I did this once and got out a large amount of fluid, but it just came back. The "texture" of these boils is also fairly thick/dense, and it is difficult to make a "dent" in. The Baytril and supportive care are what makes the difference.

I was also told by some experienced pigeon folks not to lance the boils .. unfortunately I got that advice after I had already tried it.

Here's one link for Amikacin http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/amikacin_ids.htm just for some basic info and to verify the spelling of the drug.

I'm glad you brought this topic back up as I would be moritified to have people thinking they needed Amikacin for paratyphoid when they should be using Baytril.

Here's some more links: http://www.oldworldaviaries.com/text/styles/antimicrobials_2.html, http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/infectives1.htm, http://www.vetsoftware.com/acvc2002-hess1.htm.

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Hi Terry,

Thanks for the clarification and once more all of the great links that you provided. Also, a point well taken about the lancing....with all of the info in here from senior members, it will be quite a resource for members in the future,
thanks to all,

fp


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## Birdmom4ever

Yes, the most up-to-date information I have (including a recent book written by a vet) says that Baytril is best for paratyphoid. Once they recover you should consider vaccinating them with Sal-Bac. We had salmonella in our loft a few years ago, introduced (we think) by rodents getting into the old aviary. I treated the flock with Baytril and then vaccinated them. We continue with vaccinations each year and haven't had a recurrence.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Birdmom4ever,

I'm glad you brought that up because I was wondering if you ran the full prescribed course with the baytril, and the bird was considered cured but a carrier, could you still vaccinate with benefit and no risk to the "carrier"? 
Also, would the bird be determined to be a carrier from blood work or fecal float--which is better?

And one last question, do all of the abnormalities from paratyphoid resolve
after the treatment?

Thanks,
fp


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## Birdmom4ever

Yes, I gave them the full run of Baytril. None of the adult pigeons were ever tested. The avian vet I was using at the time told me salmonella is hard to test for; that a bird could test negative following a course of antibiotics and yet still turn out to be a carrier. 

Only one of my adult pigeons ever exhibited symptoms and that was just diarrhea. It was the chicks, which nearly all died (about 10 in all), that were affected. That's how we knew we had a problem--all our babies were dying. We did have a chick necropsied, thinking they would confirm it was salmonella. It cost $200 and all they told us was that it died from a "massive intestinal bacterial infection." They explained that to determine the exact organism that caused the infection would have cost even more. We were disappointed not to know for certain, but dropped it. But the chicks' symptoms pointed to salmonella.

We had no complications after we vaccinated following treatment with Baytril and our chicks after that point were healthy. I don't think there is any risk to a carrier by vaccinating it once it recovers, but it would be best to check with an avian vet.


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## TAWhatley

*Article By Dr. Marx*

Indicates that it may be beneficial to vaccinate the bird during treatment for paratyphoid:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drdavidmarx/paratyphoid.cfm

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Hey,

Thanks you guys for the Paratyphoid 101 !!

The info is very helpful and I appreciate your responses.

fp


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## re92346mos

Terry, SULFADIMETHOXINE is good, use in water, Tablespoon per Gallon. For 5 days. I am going to double check the exact dosage and will let you know, I am pretty sure its a Tablespoon, but I like to make sure. The breeders say it is good.


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## re92346mos

Terry, I wouldnt use Baytril as a flock treatment.


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## Skyeking

Rena,

Thanks for bringing this thread up. 

This is a good one for us all to revue, especially with the current thread on "Wing boils?"


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for the sulfadimethoxine info Rena. Since I had only the one bird to treat, it was easier for me to use Baytril. I rarely have a situation where flock treatment is needed as I get the birds one at a time to care for.

I also found some articles indicating that some types of salmonella are resistant to the sulfadimethoxine.

http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol1Iss3/Malik.htm

This particular article also noted that Amikacin was effective in the tests they did.

Terry


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## re92346mos

Hi Terry, thank you for the link, we have been discussing this lately on Modena Talk, this is pretty interesting also-Resistant Forms 


We are hearing more and more about resistant forms of the various organisms we encounter with our pigeons. These are the main ones: 
Trichomonas: Reports mount and my experience shows that trichomonas is showing resistance to the commonly used drugs. This has been experienced for some time and it was just a matter of time before we started seeing resistant forms here. The best line of defense now is to rotate the anti-trichomonas drugs that one uses. 

Worms: The main thing here is the resistance of roundworms to Ivermectin. Ivermectin has be a great aid in controlling the more severe worms such as Capallaria (hairworms), and Stomach wall worms (Tetrameres and Dispharynx); but with increasing incidence, it fails to eliminate the common roundworm. The recommendation here is to use the old standby-Tramisol or the newer wormer-Pyrantel pamoate for roundworms but continue to use Ivermectin for the others.

Bacteria: In pigeons as in humans and other species, the incidence of bacteria which are resistant to the more common antibiotics is increasing rapidly. Years ago the tetracycline drugs did a great job of controlling salmonella. Now it is the uncommon salmonella that is sensitive to the tetracyclines.

Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics most easily when they are repeatedly exposed to a particular one. What makes it easier for this to happen is to use too weak a dose for too short a time.

Also, indiscriminate use of antibiotics exposes the bacteria to them at an incidence that encourages resistance to occurr. Do not use antibiotics indiscriminately; remember that antibiotics are a treatment, not a preventive--they have no preventive effect except in an epidemic situation. Use proper dose for proper time when using antibiotics as a treatment.

Coccidia: This parasite, too, becomes resistant to various treatments. Rarely is sulmet or the other sulfas adequate in controlling coccidiosis anymore. The stalwart drug, Amprolium is now failing in increasing numbers or cases. We are relying more and more on Baycox to effectively eliminate coccidia, although amprolium is still very effective in the majority of cases.


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## re92346mos

Baytril is my drug of choice to Terry, but I like to use it only when I have to because it is such a strong drug. When I do use it I use 1/4 Tablet. I have heard it causes fertility problems. Just what I heard. Thank you for the links, I need them for refrences. I just got back from you know where, I am going to see how much work I have on 911. It would be nice to hear what everyone thinks causes the resistance our birds are getting to these drugs and everyones opinion on over medicating birds as preventive measures.


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## TAWhatley

Great post, Rena .. we'll all be following up on your information. We all have to deal with these things, and all input is so very valuable.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

Hi all. Somehow I missed this thread but thought I'd offer some opinions.

When we started rehabbing birds in the fall of 1993, about the only medications we administered were on an "as needed" basis. For a few years we would get the pigeons past the crisis point and then give them to a fellow rehabber to go in one of her aviaries for awhile before releasing them. After she gave us an aviary she wasn't using, we kept the pigeons until we released them. We never had a problem until a pigeon came in with coccidiosis and we had to treat the entire flock. Now, we routinely treat all of them every six months. We also routinely treat them for worms every 3-4 months. I can't say that I have noticed a resistence to either medication - Sulmet and Pyrentel/Strongid.

I have been looking over all my records while working on the formulary/dosage thread that has been discussed. Last night, something really struck me about those records. From 1993 until about 1999 we had a higher mortality rate than we did from 1999 to now. In 1999, I got with my vet and we decided to begin treating each bird that came in with Bactrim, Nystatin, Pyrantel/Strongid and either Spartrix or Metronidazole. The mortality rate seemed to drop considerably because of that. Of course, anytime you pick up a sick pigeon off the street, you know you may lose him no matter what you do, but the few that died usually died overnight or the next day.

I don't exactly consider our "shotgun" approach with new arrivals quite like I do the preventative medicine we give for coccidia and worms. All I know is it makes a big difference in a pigeon's survival and for now I plan to continue this regimen.

Maggie


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## Skyeking

Maggie,

I think it is excellent that you keep records of everything, how interesting to see a pattern when you used a different regimen for treatment. It is not only beneficial for you to go back and see the change, but we can all learn from it!
Thanks for sharing.


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## Maggie-NC

Thanks Treesa. The records have been a real godsend to us. If we get in a bird that has injuries or is sick and it seems familiar, we go to the records and check out what we did for the first one. It really helps.

They're not as inclusive as I would like them to be. For many years we were getting in so many it was hard to keep up with the posting of medicines, vet visits, what she did for them etc., but I tried. Lots of times I had so many post-it notes lying around it would take me two days to figure out what to do with them

Maggie


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## Birdmom4ever

Just a few things I wanted to share: 

Baytril and fertility: perhaps it causes some fertility issues short-term, but we've had quite a few pigeons treated with Baytril (either by the vet or by me) and they produced normal, healthy chicks aftwards.

Drug-resistance: I've used Baytril for individuals but not as a flock treatment or preventative, for obvious reasons. We had an outbreak of respiratory infections this summer. I treated several individuals successfully with Baytril and isolated them from the flock, of course. However once I realized I was dealing with an outbreak I treated the whole flock with Doxy-T and that put a stop to it.

I just met my first Baytril-resistant bacteria in a 6-month-old nun pigeon. The actual cause of his illness is still a mystery to us. His only symptoms were weight loss and unwillingness to fly. The vet checked for Trich and Coccidia and found nothing. No worms, either. So he did a blood panel. Organ function was normal but he had a very high white cell count, indicating a bacterial infection. The odd thing was, except for the weight loss he looked otherwise normal. Normal droppings (though not enough volume), no respiratory or other symptoms.

The vet put him on Ticarcillin, an injectible antibiotic. He had to stay on it for a week and now he's better. None of the other pigeons have been sick. 

I asked my vet if he would recommend checking some of my pigeons for Trich and Coccidia periodically or or simply continue what I'm doing, which is to treat for those things several times a year, rotating meds. He recommended I continue to treat them prophylactically.


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## feralpigeon

*In my internet surfing, I found the following article on Paratyphoid/Salmonella
that was pulled directly from the insert enclosed w/the Sal Bac vaccine. It is an excellent description of the disease and thought it best to tag it on to this existing information on the disease.

From this site:*

http://www.kjsgroup.com/rprs/aspx/docview.aspx?/rprs/itlasp/July98/Salmonella.asp

Salmonella

A Disease Description

Editors note: I noticed the following when vaccinating my young birds. It is a short and accurate description of the disease and wanted to include it on this site so that it would be readily available for those using the search feature on this site.

Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis) in pigeons is an acute or chronic bacterial disease caused by Salmonella. The most common species identified in cases of paratyphiod in pigeons is Salmonella typhimurium. ( Murium is Latin for mouse)

The primary means of infection is through fecal contamination of feed, water or the environment( by rodents). The devastating nature of this disease is impacted by the occurrence of asymptomatic carrier birds which show no signs of illness and spread the disease to other birds. The organism may localize in the gallbladder or intestine and may then intermittently be shed through the feces.

Clinical manifestation of paratyphiod is broad in its range of symptoms. Of the several forms of expression, the disease in squabs (nestling pigeons) causes high mortality. Symptoms are usually evident soon after hatching and appear as retarded growth, diarrhea and death. Necropsy often reveals an unabsorbed yolk sac in addition to typical intestinal lesions. The squabs which survive the initial infection may develop swollen wing joints which prevent them from flying.

Adult birds may only show a mild infection or be completely without symptoms. Hens often develop infected ovaries and reproductive tracts leading to transovarion transmission of the Salmonella to the developing embryo and newly hatched chicks.

An articular form of the disease usually develops through a chronic course and involves the joints of the wings and legs. Dropped wings or leg lameness are clinically visible in this form. Another characteristic sign is apparent as joint swellings or "wing boils". The swelling is due to a collection of gelatinous exudate in the joint capsule. The Salmonella organism can readily be cultured from this exudate.

A septicemic form may be acute or chronic in course and clinically appears as depression, poor performance, weakness and watery, muciod diarrhea which leads to dehydration. Any stressful conditions exacerbate these symptoms. Other symptoms may be evident in the form of respiratory distress, anemia, or torticollis, a neuromotor defect due to encephalitis or inner ear infection causing the head and neck to be twisted to the side or extended over the back. Septicemia often causes an acute, severe enteritis with diarrhea and emaciation. Peracute deaths may occur as well.

The above is reprinted from the Sal Bac (vaccine for Salmonella typhimurium) insert. This vaccine is produced by the Biomune Co., Lenexa, Kansas, USA.


*Hope this is helpful for members.

fp*


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## Reti

This is great fp, thanks for sharing.

Reti


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## Chris Y

Thanks fp. Very useful information!


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## PigeonQueen

Useful information. Thanks feralpigeon.


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## Skyeking

Excellent fp.


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## jbangelfish

*I don't think Foy's has Baytril anymore*

I don't know why, perhaps because of lingering problems afterward, such as infertility.

Most of the drugs for treating Paratyphoid are sulpha drugs such as Sulmet or Albon, which is probably the same thing.
This medication will treat Paratyphoid, Coccidiosis, Fowl Cholera and another disease that I can't remember. 

The treatment for Paratyphoid involves treating the water for a two week period and you would want to treat the entire flock. I would do the two week treatment as a prevention and possible cure of any Paratyphoid in the flock. I do this myself, every spring.

Swollen wing joints or leg joints are the classic sign of advanced Paratyphoid. The early sign is green droppings.

If you keep your coop clean and dry and treat the entire flock once a year, you should never have to worry about this disease, or just about any other for that matter.

Bill


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## Charis

Foys doesn't have baytril because too many slaughtered chickens were found to have baytril in their systems. The worry is over use by the public so pigeon supply will no longer be able to get it. It will only be available via a veterinarian. This information is via my veterinarian friend.


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## TAWhatley

Wow! Seeing this thread again was a blast from the past. I often think of Big Bertha and hope that she went on to lead a long and happy life after I returned her to Bart.

I would love to have a couple of Hungarian Giants at some point.

Anyway to get back on topic, some of the pigeon supply houses do have a "generic" replacement for Baytril, but it is easy enough to buy Cipro from the Mexican pharmacies.

Terry


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## vouteman

TAWhatley said:


> was asked to take a Hungarian Giant House Pigeon in for
> treatment by a friend who raises them. Three of his birds are
> sick with this. I think what I am seeing is paratyphoid, but would
> welcome a confirmation of this and suggested treatment. The
> three birds most affected have been started on Amikacin, high doses,
> and the "boils" have been lanced and drained, cleaned with Betadine,
> and packed with antibiotic cream, and lightly bandaged to keep
> the area clean. If this is paratyhoid, then what is the "flock" treatment
> for this? I can handle individual birds, but am not sure what to
> recommend for the others that have been exposed.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any advice and assistance!
> 
> 
> http://www.rims.net/Paratyphoid
> 
> Terry (Teresa)



I would reccomend that to be sure you are treating the right disease that you send a sample of droppings to be evaluated by a labratory. Foy's pigeon supplies performs that service for about $20. All you have to do is collect about a tablespoonful of fresh poo and put it in a baggie and put a short note in there with your name and address and mail it to them. He will call you and tell you what the lab has found. He will then suggest what he uses on his birds if you ask him. That is the only way you know what you are fighting. There are only a limited number of symptoms for all the diseases that pigeons carry. I use a product called Virkon-S once a month on my birds. It has been found out in a labroatory that Virkon-S will destroy all seventeen of the diseases that pigeons have.


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## vouteman

Birdmom4ever said:


> Yes, I gave them the full run of Baytril. None of the adult pigeons were ever tested. The avian vet I was using at the time told me salmonella is hard to test for; that a bird could test negative following a course of antibiotics and yet still turn out to be a carrier.
> 
> Only one of my adult pigeons ever exhibited symptoms and that was just diarrhea. It was the chicks, which nearly all died (about 10 in all), that were affected. That's how we knew we had a problem--all our babies were dying. We did have a chick necropsied, thinking they would confirm it was salmonella. It cost $200 and all they told us was that it died from a "massive intestinal bacterial infection." They explained that to determine the exact organism that caused the infection would have cost even more. We were disappointed not to know for certain, but dropped it. But the chicks' symptoms pointed to salmonella.
> 
> We had no complications after we vaccinated following treatment with Baytril and our chicks after that point were healthy. I don't think there is any risk to a carrier by vaccinating it once it recovers, but it would be best to check with an avian vet.


If you ever decide to have a necropsy on a pigeon think about your state university. Here the University of Kentucky will do it and tell you what they found for free. You do have to take three birds for them to do a necropsy on. They will then give you a print out of what course of action that they recommend. Almost every state university will do this for free or a very small fee. 

Not only does rat/mouse urine cause salmonella but roaches have been also found to cause this disease also. A mouse leaves a continuous trail of urine. They never stop urinating. It is the cause for most paratyphoid outbreaks. Usually if you have a clean loft with no vermin then you need to stop feeding the feed you are using immediately. I used to buy my feed from a local farmer. What ever the market price is every morning in the paper that is what he sells his grain for. He sold corn, Milo, wheat and barley. He will not use cats to keep the rats/mice away. He insist on using traps, bait and his dogs for eradication. The hawks even come into his barn to hunt them. If he would get a couple of cats they would keep the vermin away. A dog just brings more in. I was told that a rat could smell dog food from almost a mile away. Every time I went over there he would have a old hub cap turned over and was full of dog food. He was inviting the rats to his feed barn by leaving the dog food out all the time. I hated to have to change suppliers. His feed was really cheap. I have went back to the pre mixed bagged food that gets shipped here from Canada.


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## Charis

vouteman said:


> If you ever decide to have a necropsy on a pigeon think about your state university. Here the University of Kentucky will do it and tell you what they found for free. You do have to take three birds for them to do a necropsy on. They will then give you a print out of what course of action that they recommend. Almost every state university will do this for free or a very small fee.
> 
> Not only does rat/mouse urine cause salmonella but roaches have been also found to cause this disease also. A mouse leaves a continuous trail of urine. They never stop urinating. It is the cause for most paratyphoid outbreaks. Usually if you have a clean loft with no vermin then you need to stop feeding the feed you are using immediately. I used to buy my feed from a local farmer. What ever the market price is every morning in the paper that is what he sells his grain for. He sold corn, Milo, wheat and barley. He will not use cats to keep the rats/mice away. He insist on using traps, bait and his dogs for eradication. The hawks even come into his barn to hunt them. If he would get a couple of cats they would keep the vermin away. A dog just brings more in. I was told that a rat could smell dog food from almost a mile away. Every time I went over there he would have a old hub cap turned over and was full of dog food. He was inviting the rats to his feed barn by leaving the dog food out all the time. I hated to have to change suppliers. His feed was really cheap. I have went back to the pre mixed bagged food that gets shipped here from Canada.


You are preachin to the choir, vouteman.
Also, I'm thankful Foy's provides the service they do with fecal exams....it's not always accurate though.


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## TheSnipes

Charis said:


> You are preachin to the choir, vouteman.
> Also, I'm thankful Foy's provides the service they do with fecal exams....it's not always accurate though.


and paratyphoid..isn't that an unlikely one to get a positive test for? It turns up many false negatives is what I mean.


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## jbangelfish

*This may be old news but....*

Baytril is very strong medicine and should only be used when you simply cannot diagnose the problem. If you suspect either Paratyphoid or Coccidiosis, Sulpha drugs such as Albon or Sulmet will treat and cure either of them and are much easier on the birds.

If birds have wing boils or swollen leg joints, these are nearly always late signs of Paratyphoid.

Baytril kills all bacteria in a pigeons body both good and bad and is very hard on the bird. It has been outlawed in the US, according to Jerry Gagne, who now owns Foys.

I have treated and cured several cases of Paratyphoid over the years and have never used Baytril for anything. I treat the whole flock every year with Albon or other Sulpha drug and never worry about harming the birds. To treat for Paratyphoid, takes 14 days of treatment and I think that is too long to be on Baytril. It is strong, it has been outlawed.

Bill


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## TheSnipes

Baytril has not been "outlawed". The reason the drug is banned from sale is not because it is a bad drug, or because it is "too strong"..it is simply because it is the same drug as CIPRO, which is a powerful drug in our own pharmaceutical weapons chest. Tests have shown that the drug is found in chicken meat after slaughter, which means it could enter via our food supply, thus giving pathogens a chance to develop immunity or resistance. Thus Baytril was removed from use _in the poultry industry_, and therefore is no longer available without a prescription, due to the potential threat of lessening the effectiveness of the drug CIPRO against human pathogens. That's it, and it does not imply there is anything wrong with the drug, or with using it. Unless you are eating your pigeons, of course...

Here are two links for inquiring minds, to the official FDA decision:http://www.fda.gov/oc/antimicrobial/baytril.pdf (see pg. 5, paragraph 2, for instance),
and a summary article on the decision: http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2005/Baytril-Antibiotic-Banned29jul05.htm

You can still obtain Baytril from a veterinarian, in pill or liquid form, or get them to write a script for Cipro if you want to use it for your birds. It still has great value to us and I have found it to be highly effective in treating sick birds when no other drug was.


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## Birdmom4ever

My lovebird is currently on a two month course of Baytril (diluted in his drinking water) for a chronic sinus infection. This is the second round in a six month time frame and it was prescribed by my avian vet. I have not observed any side effects, but Lovey's sinus infection is clearing up. Baytril is not a bad drug, but it has been overused by the poultry industry, as The Snipes said. And according to Dr. Colin Walker ("The Flying Vet") it's still the drug of choice for treating Salmonellosis/Paratyphoid. It shouldn't be used for any old thing, but it's a valuable drug.


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## jbangelfish

*Maybe I need to rephrase*

It has been outlawed except by prescription. This is why Foys can't sell it over the counter.Apparently the fact that it kept showing up in slaughtered chickens was the reason for it's control as has been pointed out here on at least a few occasions.

This does not change the fact that it is a strong med and maybe needs the supervision of an avian vet. Any medication that kills all bacteria in a bird's system puts a considerable stress on that bird as it needs beneficial bacteria for it's digestive system to work properly and for it to receive it's required nutrition.

The fact that Baytril is still available through a vet, is perhaps a good thing as it is now controlled and can be used in those situations where warranted.

I confess that I still don't understand why people were so quick to use Baytril and not use Sulpha drugs which are readily available, inexpensive, and able to control such things as Paratyphoid and Coccidiosis with very minimal risk to the birds.

Bill


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## Guest

is there anyone that knows of any place that sells Ciprofloxacin Tablets without a prescription ? I have two birds that seem to have come down with a case of paratyphoid... its weird because they are two years old nestmates and both came down with it at the exact same time :s I wanted to try it instead of the baytril route as I have been told its easier on the birds system ..thanks for any help you can offer


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## Birdmom4ever

The only place I know if is on-line via http://medsmexico.com/ but it does take awhile to get it. Several weeks, as I recall. But I've only used them once and it was for a different drug, so perhaps the shipping time is different. I don't know if they can expedite.


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## tboycountry

*Pmv*

How long will a bird live with PMV?????


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## snake08

tboycountry said:


> How long will a bird live with PMV?????



One that has it already? or one that is getting the PMV-1 shot? 

If it is one that already has it, it can survive, but end up with a twisted neck and have issue trying to eat, drink, etc. 

If it is one that is getting the shot, it should live forever if its immune is tough enough.


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## pigeonmen

*Paratyphoid recovered*

I have a bird who had paratyphoid and was treated over a year ago and recovered from the disease. He looks and acts healthy, had bred successfully a few times since and everything seems fine except its wings (left wing) still not functional as before. He can fly around but not perfectly. He's one of my favorites, so Is there anything I can do so his wings get back to normal. Will his wing ever get normal again?


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## cubanlofts

*baytril*

Do u know of any place that sell baytril for pigeons anymore, and by the way, I am looking for the vaccine too, iam para free now, but i am looking for just in case, I will vaccinated asap


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## Dobato

Here you go:

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Vaccines-&-Injuries-cln-Vaccine,-Paratyphoid/Categories.bok

Karyn


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## Са́ша Чёрный

snake08 said:


> One that has it already? or one that is getting the PMV-1 shot?
> 
> If it is one that already has it, it can survive, but end up with a twisted neck and have issue trying to eat, drink, etc.
> 
> If it is one that is getting the shot, it should live forever if its immune is tough enough.



Are you sure they cant get a second form of PMV ?


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## Pichon Man

*Rescued Baby Pigeon with disease beak ?*

Help Piji Community !
I have a rescued fledgling with a weird growth on its beak and around one eye (see pics) . He is roughly a month old and feeds well and is quiet active around the yard. Let me know if there is some type of medication or treatment I can do.
Any advice is truly appreciated !
Thanks


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## kunju

Hi Pichon Man.. I suggest you start a new thread in the 'Sick and Injured' section so people can respond specifically to your problem. From what you describe, could be pox. There is no treatment for pox, only supportive care to be given. It goes away on its own.


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## John_D

Thanks Kunju ... I have copied his post into a new thread.

I will close this one.


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