# Believe the nerve



## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

syracuse craigslist > for sale / wanted > items wanted 
please flag with care: 


miscategorized


prohibited


spam/overpost


best of craigslist

Avoid scams and fraud by dealing locally! Beware any deal involving Western Union, Moneygram, wire transfer, cashier check, money order, shipping, escrow, or any promise of transaction protection/certification/guarantee. More info
pigeons (central square and near)

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Date: 2010-07-08, 8:23AM EDT
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]

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Looking for some barn pigeons to train my bird dog with. I'll come and take them off your hand and give you a buck or 2 for each. So if you have a problem with pigeons net them and let me know. If you don't want to go through the hassle send me an email and Ill come and Ill net them if you will allow me to. Thanks again 


•Location: central square and near 
•it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests



PostingID: 1831597421


Found this ad on craigslist. I think it is in the Syracuse NY area.
Kurps


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I just flagged as 'prohibited'.

Everyone who reads this thread should just flag the ad. It only takes about a half-dozen flags to get it down.

http://syracuse.craigslist.org/wan/1831597421.html

About two years ago we had a guy up north post an ad SELLING his pigeons specifically for 'dog training'. After a few folks flagging, ad was removed but not before I PDF'd the ad, contacted him, got his name,. address, phone #, and gave all info to a bunch of humane societies /animal control/anti-cruelty orgs./animal rescues.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

flagged it!


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

This ad unfortunately doesn't surprise me. 

I was asked at the feed store I purchase our pigeon feed at if I had any pigeons to sell for dog training... I politely informed them what I thought about using live animals to train with.

I'll flag it too.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Is this illlegle? If not then why would craiglist take it off?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

SW,

I believe this is legal in NY, but it would seem to violate CL policy as the implication is that the birds will be destroyed. How else will be help with the 'problem" pigeons? 

The reputable dog trainers that I know use "trained" birds that are not harmed to teach dogs to point. Same birds year after year. All retrieval is done with training decoys. I personally don't see a problem with the practice of using trained birds but others here may disagree.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Flagged...


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## help with pigeo (Jul 9, 2009)

flagged!! I live in syracuse, I'd like to catch him trying to net my ferals. I'll net him and let my nephew use him for airsoft target practice.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wonder if it is for dog training, or just collecting for the pigeon shoots? Lord knows.
Anyway, I flagged it.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It's been 3 days and it's still up....needs more flagging...forward to other people, please.


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

do not know how to flag


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

are you sure 12 flags will take it down ? because everytime I open that link, the option to flag is there, yet it doesn't seem to work even after multiple times. May it goes to the review section when its flagged ???

tipplers rule: when you open that web link in post #2, on the right hand top corner there is the section for flagging, you can click on that and it should change to "thanks for flagging"

Happy flagging


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## help with pigeo (Jul 9, 2009)

I've flagged it 4x so far still there


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Flagged it as prohibited.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

just flagged it, it's cruelty to animals plain and simple


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I flagged it on the 16th when this was first posted under "prohibited" 
Just flagged it *again*
Here's the link-
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/wan/1831597421.html


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

As much as it disgust us. It is a common practice around the country. I know more than one flyer in my Combine that are avid hunters and use their own pigeons to train their bird dogs. The phrase they use often, is that the "shoot the birds over their dogs". 

They also go into abandoned buildings and catch bags of ferals to do the same. One guy who has been a pigeon racer for over fifty years, and is an avid hunter, told me how he collected over two hundred ferals out of an abondoned building and took them to his bird dog club and they used them for their trials. He said it saved the club a couple of hundred dollars because they didn't have to buy the pigeons like they usually do.

I did not ask him from whom they usually buy pigeons from, or what kind of pigeons the get.

It sucks to be a pigeon. And a cow, a chicken, a tuna, and a ______....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> As much as it disgust us. It is a common practice around the country. I know more than one flyer in my Combine that are avid hunters and use their own pigeons to train their bird dogs. The phrase they use often, is that the "shoot the birds over their dogs".
> 
> They also go into abandoned buildings and catch bags of ferals to do the same. One guy who has been a pigeon racer for over fifty years, and is an avid hunter, told me how he collected over two hundred ferals out of an abondoned building and took them to his bird dog club and they used them for their trials. He said it saved the club a couple of hundred dollars because they didn't have to buy the pigeons like they usually do.
> 
> ...



I guess the guy from your club did not consider they have mates and perhaps squabs in a nest and a familiar home.. too bad he had to ruin that to save a buck... he should just breed some of his own with out messing up a colony like that.. I do not like the practice of using live birds to train bird dogs.. my dad never did..he just used feathers on the end of a fishing line to intice the dog to point.. it worked and he had good dogs. But it is not illegal do use them so I don't think much can be done about it...


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## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

This is very common here in Mn. There are ads in the newspaper even. I always thought it was kinda cruel (And I even pheasant and grouse hunt). 
When I trained my lab, we wrapped a softball with pheasant feathers and it seemed to work. But labs have that natural hunting gene so who knows.


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## akdovelovers (Oct 13, 2010)

*flagging same kinds of crazy hunter here in alaska too*

isnt it sad how people get such enjoyment out of buying up peoples pets, up here in alaska we have the falconers to watch out for , if you place an ad to sell your pigeons or doves for pets only, you get these wackos trying to buy them real quick, so I check very carefully before selling to anyone,they have to show me where they live and allow occational home visits before they are placed anywhere, and I flag those weirdos on craigslist here too.


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

akdovelovers said:


> isnt it sad how people get such enjoyment out of buying up peoples pets, up here in alaska we have the falconers to watch out for , if you place an ad to sell your pigeons or doves for pets only, you get these wackos trying to buy them real quick, so I check very carefully before selling to anyone,they have to show me where they live and allow occational home visits before they are placed anywhere, and I flag those weirdos on craigslist here too.


Yes it would be sad to buy a person's pet, however this guy is not looking for someones pet pigeons. He asked about barn pigeons that are causing problems. 

Pigeons that cause problems for humans do not help the cause and don't endear them to humans. Makes for an uphill battle because some folks don't like pigeons one bit (same goes for other animals like *****, coyotes, snakes, wolves, etc that create nuisances to humans).


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

TN_PIGEON said:


> Yes it would be sad to buy a person's pet, however this guy is not looking for someones pet pigeons. He asked about barn pigeons that are causing problems.


And do you really think he would turn down any other pigeons if he got the chance. ? I'm sure any pet lover would not reply to him but chances are since he posted the ad, he will be looking for other ads selling whatever he can get.



> Pigeons that cause problems for humans do not help the cause and don't endear them to humans. Makes for an uphill battle because some folks don't like pigeons one bit (same goes for other animals like *****, coyotes, snakes, wolves, etc that create nuisances to humans).


Hmm maybe we could do the same with some other humans, i.e. those that train dogs with live animals/birds,.... round them up, stick them in a pen with a few wild dogs/wolves & see how they like it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> And do you really think he would turn down any other pigeons if he got the chance. ? I'm sure any pet lover would not reply to him but chances are since he posted the ad, he will be looking for other ads selling whatever he can get.
> 
> 
> *
> Hmm maybe we could do the same with some other humans, i.e. those that train dogs with live animals/birds,.... round them up, stick them in a pen with a few wild dogs/wolves & see how they like it. *


*
*


Now, I like that idea!


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

Quazar said:


> And do you really think he would turn down any other pigeons if he got the chance. ? I'm sure any pet lover would not reply to him but chances are since he posted the ad, he will be looking for other ads selling whatever he can get.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm maybe we could do the same with some other humans, i.e. those that train dogs with live animals/birds,.... round them up, stick them in a pen with a few wild dogs/wolves & see how they like it.


1. My gut says no he probably wouldn't turn down a pet pigeon, but I also don't think a person would respond to his request by offering their pet bird...and if they did: shame on the BIRD OWNER.

2. Really?????Really????? So you put humans on the same level as wild birds (saying to stick humans in a pen with wild dogs/wolves). I know you put the rolleye emoticon there, but c'mon...he's talking about wild pigeons. I do think there is a heiarchy of animals and humans are at the top, domesticated dogs are pretty high up there, and wild pigeons aren't quite so high up there. If I had a pet snake, I'd also feed it mice (gasp ). Sorry, but I would. I also fish, guilt free, with worms.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TN Pigeons...it doesn't matter...cruelty is cruelty whether it be toward a human or animal. Cruelty cannot be justified because the pigeon is wild or lives in a barn and is causing problems for the barn owner. 
Come on now...feeding mice to sankes has not a thing to do with this practice.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TN_PIGEON said:


> 1. My gut says no he probably wouldn't turn down a pet pigeon, but I also don't think a person would respond to his request by offering their pet bird...and if they did: shame on the BIRD OWNER.
> 
> *2. Really?????Really????? So you put humans on the same level as wild birds *(saying to stick humans in a pen with wild dogs/wolves). I know you put the rolleye emoticon there, but c'mon...he's talking about wild pigeons. I do think there is a heiarchy of animals and humans are at the top, domesticated dogs are pretty high up there, and wild pigeons aren't quite so high up there. If I had a pet snake, I'd also feed it mice (gasp ). Sorry, but I would. I also fish, guilt free, with worms.


No actually, I think wild birds are a lot nicer than lots of people. That would put them a bit higher I think.


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

Charis said:


> Come on now...feeding mice to sankes has not a thing to do with this practice.


Feeding mice to snakes is a lot more similar to dog training with birds than putting humans in cages with wild animals (THAT is absurd). I wonder about folks that don't understand that.

Sorry, I also don't buy the cruelty argument. Had folks in my biology class that always tried to say the mice experiements were cruel. Nah.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well if purposely and needlessly causing pain or suffering to a feeling animal isn't cruelty to you, then the whole argument is wasted on you.


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## akdovelovers (Oct 13, 2010)

TN_PIGEON said:


> Yes it would be sad to buy a person's pet, however this guy is not looking for someones pet pigeons. He asked about barn pigeons that are causing problems.
> 
> Pigeons that cause problems for humans do not help the cause and don't endear them to humans. Makes for an uphill battle because some folks don't like pigeons one bit (same goes for other animals like *****, coyotes, snakes, wolves, etc that create nuisances to humans).


OH, OK, I THOUGHT YOU SAID PEOPLE WERE ON CL TRYING TO GET PIGEONS FOR FALCONERS AND SUCH, YES I DO BELIEVE IN PEST CONTROL TO A CERTAIN LEVEL, AND PIGEONS IN ALASKA ARE WELCOMED, WE ONLY HAVE RARE PROBLEMS WHEN SOMEONE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD FEEDS THE WILD ONES AND THEY STAY, HEHE! THEY ARE NOT STUPID, IF PEOPLE FEED THEM IN A NEIGHBORHOOD THEY WILL STICK AROUND FOR MORE FOOD, AND BRING A LARGE FAMILY W THEM,I WISH PEOPLE WOULDNT DO THIS EITHER, BUT LIKE YOU SAID ITS AND UPHILL BATTLE ON ALL SIDES, I LOVE MY 2 PET PIGEONS AND DO NOT INTEND TO LET THEM BREED UNLESS I OWN A BIG HOUSE WITH A LARGE FLIGHT CAGE IN THE COUNTRY FOR THEM,, THANKS FOR THE FYI, PEG IN AK:


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

TN_PIGEON said:


> 2. Really?????Really????? So you put humans on the same level as wild birds (saying to stick humans in a pen with wild dogs/wolves). I know you put the rolleye emoticon there, but c'mon...he's talking about wild pigeons. I do think there is a heiarchy of animals and humans are at the top, domesticated dogs are pretty high up there, and wild pigeons aren't quite so high up there. If I had a pet snake, I'd also feed it mice (gasp ). Sorry, but I would. I also fish, guilt free, with worms.


Actually, I'd put most humans BELOW animals & birds in the heirachy chain.

Whether an animal is wild or domesticated, who are we to FORCE them into a situation which would lead to its death. 
Ok, so in the wild various species hunt and attack each other in a bid for survival, but that is nature, they dont do it for sport or recreation, they do it as instinct to survive. It's an ongoing process and balances out the numbers so that every species has a chance of survival.
While I do feel sorry for the mouse, In the wild the snake would catch & kill it anyway. (If I had a pet mongoose, i'd probably feed it snakes)
Yes, man has the ability to train animals/birds and exploit their particular senses for various things, some of which are beneficial to mankind (for example rescue dogs), but humans are the only species to use the death & destruction of another species for their enjoyment so in my mind that puts them well below animals & birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> Actually, I'd put most humans BELOW animals & birds in the heirachy chain.
> 
> Whether an animal is wild or domesticated, who are we to FORCE them into a situation which would lead to its death.
> Ok, so in the wild various species hunt and attack each other in a bid for survival, but that is nature, they dont do it for sport or recreation, they do it as instinct to survive. It's an ongoing process and balances out the numbers so that every species has a chance of survival.
> ...


To this I can only say AMEN!


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Which one of you GOOD people want me to send them a Texas Rattle Snake or maybe they would rather have some of our Texas Fire Ants. I'm sure either one of them would make good/sweet pets.


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

i herd if there training for dogs they acctualy don't die and thats acctualy how i got into the hobby but obiously now i use clays flagged it becuase it close to pennsivania


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Quazar said:


> Actually, I'd put most humans BELOW animals & birds in the heirachy chain.
> 
> Whether an animal is wild or domesticated, who are we to FORCE them into a situation which would lead to its death.
> Ok, so in the wild various species hunt and attack each other in a bid for survival, but that is nature, they dont do it for sport or recreation, they do it as instinct to survive. It's an ongoing process and balances out the numbers so that every species has a chance of survival.
> ...


I to put human's BELOW animals and birds.....and I've stated this many times before for the EXACT reasons you just wrote 
If you were to compare NATURAL HUNTING TACTICS between human's (by natural I mean take their guns away), bird's and mammals..........Human's would be at the bottom of the list


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

Oh brother. What would they say if they knew I ate beef?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

TN_PIGEON said:


> Oh brother. What would they say if they knew I ate beef?


Nothing really, since its not really related to humans using live animals to train other animals to do something that they wouldnt normally do, all for the purpose to amuse themselves in something they call "sport".
Also, man has eaten meat since he was first on this earth and discovered how to make & use a spear, one of his "natural" hunting instincts, unfortunately only a few have evolved and learned how to live in a more civilised and humane society.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2010)

Quazar said:


> Nothing really, since its not really related to humans using live animals to train other animals to do something that they wouldnt normally do, all for the purpose to amuse themselves in something they call "sport".
> Also, man has eaten meat since he was first on this earth and discovered how to make & use a spear, one of his "natural" hunting instincts, unfortunately only a few have evolved and learned how to live in a more civilised and humane society.


its true I too equate myself with the wolves as I do prey on meats to survive but pigeons are not in my data base as prey to me  I have raised every kind of poultry out there and I can honestly say that I would never in a million years eat a single thing I have raised myself but I too need to survive and being a vegetarian is something I could never do  that said I still 
dont believe in using live animals to train others .


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

LokotaLoft said:


> its true I too equate myself with the wolves as I do prey on meats to survive but pigeons are not in my data base as prey to me  I have raised every kind of poultry out there and I can honestly say that I would never in a million years eat a single thing I have raised myself but I too need to survive and being a vegetarian is something I could never do  that said I still
> dont believe in using live animals to train others .


Exactly!
I eat meat and I own a gun.....to survive.
I have a chocolate Lab that is fully trained for hunting, but we don't hunt. I trained him with a "bumper" covered with feathers.......just to keep his mind stimulated and keep him out of trouble (destructive behavior which Labs are known for if their bored!) AND its worked out great for me- he takes all his toys out into the yard. I tell him to go "find it", and he brings ALL his toys back inside - I don't have to clean up after him 
I don't have a problem with hunting for "FOOD"
But I DO have a problem with hunting for "SPORT" and using LIVE bait for training.....Not necessary and cruel
And I too..."Don't eat family members"


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

Quazar said:


> Actually, I'd put most humans BELOW animals & birds in the heirachy chain.
> 
> Whether an animal is wild or domesticated, who are we to FORCE them into a situation which would lead to its death.
> Ok, so in the wild various species hunt and attack each other in a bid for survival, but that is nature, they dont do it for sport or recreation, they do it as instinct to survive. It's an ongoing process and balances out the numbers so that every species has a chance of survival.
> ...



I will always think of humans as under animals.they are not spiteful,hateful or hurt out of anger or greed,they have no choice when we trap them and kill them,humans suck pretty bad .and yes id love to take alot fo people and put them in a room with dogs , and wolves,that is the least we should do considering what they take form all the animals that exist on this earth.dog fighters should be put ina ring with a dog that they hung and electrocuted ,and pigeon killers should be put in a room with dogs to attack them just like they do to animals that have no way to say PLEASE DONT KILL ME. 

humans have NO RIGHT to kill what ever they want ands i hate them for it,we take and kill everything without a good reason,yes we eat me and fish but we are killing them off as a hobby and not food,guess what pigeons and other animals would not do this,they wouold not take what they dont need to survive,that is why humans are below all animals! so yes humans should pay for these sick things they do,i will always flag these post .


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

To those of you who are sympathetic to the pigeons, does the suffering of your food animals not elicit some kind of empathy from you? Is there some reason that their pain is of no significance?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

DebbyM said:


> To those of you who are sympathetic to the pigeons, does the suffering of your food animals not elicit some kind of empathy from you? Is there some reason that their pain is of no significance?



Did somebody say that their pain was of no significance? If they did, then I must have missed it.


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## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

spirit wings said:


> Is this illlegle? If not then why would craiglist take it off?


craigslist is community controlled. Same reason prostitution is on there. If people don't flag, it will stay up.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Did somebody say that their pain was of no significance? If they did, then I must have missed it.


I guess I'm specifically asking that question of TN Pigeon. In his posts #24 and 27 he said (when discussing using pigeons for training dogs) there is a heirarchy of value between animals/people/dogs/pigeons.... and he also said that experiments done on mice are not cruel. Personally, I think anytime you do something to an animal that you wouldn't want done to you, it is cruelty. And another person mentioned that they hunt pheasants and something else and I'm just wondering how they dismiss the pain and suffering that they inflict.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

DebbyM said:


> I guess I'm specifically asking that question of TN Pigeon. In his posts #24 and 27 he said (when discussing using pigeons for training dogs) there is a heirarchy of value between animals/people/dogs/pigeons.... and he also said that experiments done on mice are not cruel. * Personally, I think anytime you do something to an animal that you wouldn't want done to you, it is cruelty. *And another person mentioned that they hunt pheasants and something else and I'm just wondering how they dismiss the pain and suffering that they inflict.



I agree with that. Unfortunately many people don't have any conscience, and don't really feel another animals suffering, as long as it isn't happening to them.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK, proceed with caution, please .. you are getting into very murky waters here! The other thread where everyone got into really nasty posts to one another just got closed. This thread is going to end up closed also if it goes the same route. Keep it civil or myself or another moderator will close the thread. I DO NOT want to see another discussion here about hunting, not hunting, eating meat, not eating meat, how to train hunting dogs, how not to train hunting dogs. I am again directing you all to the terms of use and the rules of conduct here. 

Terry


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

I love animals, which is why I'm somewhat outnumbered in my home. 

Someone further up said something about animals not being spiteful or greedy or hurting out of anger... really? Animals are no better or worse than man - man is worth no more or less to me than any other animal. A cat will maliciously pee in your shoe and my dog will suck down all the cat food he can find, not because he's hungry - just greedy, and those are domestic animals. Then there's nest-stealing, baby-eating, stalking, killing wild animals.

Part of the reason I appreciate animals is the deeper understanding they give me of people. Whether we choose to recognize it or not, we are all just animals. There is no good or evil merely social ethics, which vary depending on which social circle you're standing in.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Well said, Cyreen!


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

DebbyM said:


> I guess I'm specifically asking that question of TN Pigeon. In his posts #24 and 27 he said (when discussing using pigeons for training dogs) there is a heirarchy of value between animals/people/dogs/pigeons.... and he also said that experiments done on mice are not cruel. Personally, I think anytime you do something to an animal that you wouldn't want done to you, it is cruelty. And another person mentioned that they hunt pheasants and something else and I'm just wondering how they dismiss the pain and suffering that they inflict.


I dismiss it because I have a different outlook and viewpoint. I'm sure we disagree on several things, and I could ask you a similar question on your viewpoints.

I also use worms and crickets to catch fish.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

I think the difference between humans and animals is that the animals are honest about their actions. They don't smile in your face and tell you how wonderful they think you are all the while they are sticking it to you. If they are angry they let you know, if they are afraid or happy, they just are, if you know what I mean. 

Because I love animals and try to do good things for them, I'm always curious about the motives and thinking processes of people who use animals for their own purposes. Sorry mods, as I'm new here I had no idea that another thread sort of like this was recently closed. TN opened a door with his comments about experimenting on mice not being a cruel thing to do and my curiosity caused me to step thru it.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

TN_PIGEON said:


> I dismiss it because I have a different outlook and viewpoint. I'm sure we disagree on several things, and I could ask you a similar question on your viewpoints.
> 
> I also use worms and crickets to catch fish.


What sort of viewpoints are you interested in? I realize that we obviously think differently, different upbringings, different experiences....and the result different perspectives. I do think (my perspective here folks), that when we've just been "checked" by the moderators on the direction that this thread might be taking, to throw in the "abuse" of crickets and worms to see if you can get a rise out of me is hardly what they had in mind.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

Cyreen said:


> I love animals, which is why I'm somewhat outnumbered in my home. ........... we are all just animals. There is no good or evil merely social ethics, which vary depending on which social circle you're standing in.


While much of what you've said is true, one point I will disagree on. You forget that each individual has a personal heart that falls to one side or the other. One child in the family can be tender-hearted, generous and kind to all, and the other child can be manipulative, sly, unkind to the point of cruelty....same family, same social circle and yet two different children. I had two just like that in my family.


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

DebbyM said:


> What sort of viewpoints are you interested in?


This is not the appropriate time or place to get into things like that.

QUOTE=DebbyM;520826] I do think (my perspective here folks), that when we've just been "checked" by the moderators on the direction that this thread might be taking[/QUOTE]

This thread had just about died (last post was a month ago) until you decided to resurect it. 



DebbyM said:


> to throw in the "abuse" of crickets and worms to see if you can get a rise out of me is hardly what they had in mind.


I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I'm just trying to demonstrate that not all animals are "equal."


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

TN_PIGEON said:


> This is not the appropriate time or place to get into things like that.
> 
> QUOTE=DebbyM;520826] I do think (my perspective here folks), that when we've just been "checked" by the moderators on the direction that this thread might be taking


This thread had just about died (last post was a month ago) until you decided to resurect it. 



I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I'm just trying to demonstrate that not all animals are "equal."[/QUOTE]

To continue with a comment to you as per the above, would likely be seen by the moderators as an effort to sidestep their instructions so I'm going to PM you.


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

DebbyM said:


> While much of what you've said is true, one point I will disagree on. You forget that each individual has a personal heart that falls to one side or the other. One child in the family can be tender-hearted, generous and kind to all, and the other child can be manipulative, sly, unkind to the point of cruelty....same family, same social circle and yet two different children. I had two just like that in my family.


All animals are ultimately selfish, whether they feel guilt or not is irrelevant.

Granted, that might be a little harsh and overly simplified, but that's what it boils down to.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Cyreen said:


> All animals are ultimately selfish, whether they feel guilt or not is irrelevant.
> 
> Granted, that might be a little harsh and overly simplified, but that's what it boils down to.


Each and every living being in this world is ultimately "selfish", including humans, thats how evolution moulded us. A side note to that, do not impose human definitions of selfishness on to the animal kingdom, most of the time, if not always, its not the same, the instinct to live, protect and succeed of animals cannot be equated to the modern world selfishness of humans  Animals do the only way they know and can do it but not humans.


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## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> Animals do the only way they know and can do it but not humans.


Not to knit-pick, but please clarify this statement. It doesn't make sense to me.


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> ...do not impose human definitions of selfishness on to the animal kingdom...


I apologize, I wasn't aware they had a separate dictionary. To my knowledge all animals (that includes you) "do the only way they know" for their own purposes. This isn't a bad thing; it just is.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

sreeshs said:


> Each and every living being in this world is ultimately "selfish", including humans, thats how evolution moulded us. A side note to that, do not impose human definitions of selfishness on to the animal kingdom, most of the time, if not always, its not the same, the instinct to live, protect and succeed of animals cannot be equated to the modern world selfishness of humans  Animals do the only way they know and can do it but not humans.


This makes perfect sense to me!
_Wild Animals_ work off instinct to survive, eat, defend themselves and their young and to continue their species. Their 'strategy' is 'instinct'.
_Human's_ attack and kill for greed. Human's 'strategy' is thought out and planned.
And _'Domestic'_ animals (dogs/cats) are a different story. They have been 'spoiled' and 'ruined' by Human's. They do what human's 'teach' them to do. If improperly trained and left to their own devises, they can have the 'worst' behavior........greed (taught to them by humans) and instinct combined!
2 perfect example's - My mother's spoiled rotten, sneaky, spiteful little Poodle, and My Siamese cat...if his litter box isn't cleaned enough to HIS liking 
So there IS different definitions for behavior.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> This makes perfect sense to me!
> _Wild Animals_ work off instinct to survive, ................My mother's spoiled rotten, sneaky, spiteful little Poodle, and My Siamese cat...if his litter box isn't cleaned enough to HIS liking
> So there IS different definitions for behavior.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

DebbyM said:


> Every creature works on the basis of self interest. It is what keeps us all alive. But I think the difference between us and animals is that we have the capacity to not only look into the future, but to make decisions that serve the 'self interests' of another over our own. Your mothers spoiled, rotten, sneaky little dog is only acting like the lead dog because your mother has failed to teach him and has failed to take the leadership role. As for the cat, perhaps his toilet lapses are actually your litterbox cleaning lapses.
> 
> Of course there are differences in behaviour because all us creatures have different needs. The problems only arise when humans expect animals to behave in ways that are suitable to us, while failing to take the animals needs into consideration. Your moms dog needs a leader, someone who will let him know what is acceptable to the pack and what is not. Your cat needs a clean place to dig around in every time he has to go to the bathroom. Whenever you have a problem with an animal, we have to ask ourselves if we are meeting their needs.


The only thing I agree with is your statement that "every creature works on the basis of self interest"...in a sense. 'NEED" is debatable. There's a very fine line between 'Need' and 'Want' between species.....A hawk 'needs' to hunt, a human 'wants' to hunt.
And yes - "problems only arise when humans expect animals to behave in ways that are suitable to us" - this is my point! Animals don't think like humans and humans don't think like animals. And that is what Sreeshs is trying to point out, therefore you can't impose human definition on the animal kingdom.
_Wild Animals_ act purely out of instinct.
_Humans_ think (sometimes ) and plan
_Domestic Animals_ (dogs/cats) are neurotic - caused by humans!


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Flagging*



TAWhatley said:


> OK, proceed with caution, please .. you are getting into very murky waters here! The other thread where everyone got into really nasty posts to one another just got closed. This thread is going to end up closed also if it goes the same route. Keep it civil or myself or another moderator will close the thread. I DO NOT want to see another discussion here about hunting, not hunting, eating meat, not eating meat, how to train hunting dogs, how not to train hunting dogs. I am again directing you all to the terms of use and the rules of conduct here.
> 
> Terry


 If I am reading this correctly, the bottom line is threads asking to flag CL adds and disscusions about them are not allowed and should be banned from being posted to start with. How many times do people on here have to waste there time on mute point when the could be cleaning there lofts better and loving what thay have. >Kevin
Forum Rules of Conduct

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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__________________
I truly believe that the flagging of anything from any OTHER forum should not be allowed on this site, go save a bird and spend your time loving it. >Kevin


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> Animals don't think like humans and humans don't think like animals.


You need to people watch more.



Msfreebird said:


> _Wild Animals_ act purely out of instinct.


That's crap - they may rely more on instinct than you do, but they also have brains and use them, sometimes even against instinct; anyone who has ever picked up a wild bird in distress can attest to that.



Msfreebird said:


> _Humans_ think (sometimes ) and plan


An idealist. I disagree. People don't think they react out of fear (usually of what the neighbours will think). 



Msfreebird said:


> _Domestic Animals_ (dogs/cats) are neurotic - caused by humans!


And this is why domestic animals bite, because people forget they are animals and still have instinct.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

MsFreebird, after re-reading my post and your reply, I'm not sure where you and I have any different ideas on this matter. Aren't we both saying that animals work from a basis of instinctual behaviour and peoples behaviour is instinct mitigated by wants?


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

Cyreen said:


> You need to people watch ........And this is why domestic animals bite, because people forget they are animals and still have instinct.


Animal behaviour is instinct based: get food, have sex, stay warm....And out of those instincts, their brain learns where to find food, where it is safe and warm....sex, well they're generally ruled by their noses on that one. And of course there are the "instincts" that have been bred into certain animals, particularly dogs. For instance, border collies and their instinct to herd sheep, or a labrador retrievers instinct to pick up and carry (birds). But animals don't make long term plans that I know of like make plans for retirement, or how to maintain a food supply in a given area (they don't start farms although squirrels do cache food). I'd be interested in some examples of when an animal actually works against its own instincts if you could provide them because maybe there is something that I am not aware of.

And yes, I do agree that humans primarily act out of fear, fear of death, fear of isolation, fear of hunger, fear of humiliation, fear of physical harm .....many fears resulting in a variety of behaviours that include, planning for the future, building cities, developing weapons and armies to name a few. The unfortunate thing is that all those precautions against our anxieties wind up causing a multitude of other problems that we are then forced to deal with. Fear of death has resulted in medical research that has resulted in a global over-population concern which results in fears of food shortages, which may ultimately end in wars fought over food and water.....perhaps it would have been better if we had accepted a more natural world with a more natural outcome, much like the indigenous peoples have always done. Accepting life as it is handed to you and going into death with a certain dignity.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> Each and every living being in this world is ultimately "selfish", including humans, thats how evolution moulded us. A side note to that, do not impose human definitions of selfishness on to the animal kingdom, most of the time, if not always, its not the same, the instinct to live, protect and succeed of animals cannot be equated to the modern world selfishness of humans  Animals do the only way they know and can do it but not humans.


If I'm understanding you here, I think what you are saying is the animals are interested in what keeps them alive, fed and warmed and they do what is necessary to meet those needs. Humans on the other hand are interested in those things, but they expand on those needs. I think a current example is the huge bonuses and paychecks that the CEO's of all the big banks that got bailed out by the tax payers in America. They don't need billions and billions of dollars to survive to the end of their lives, they'd never be able to spend all that they do have if they stopped accumulating wealth. But they keep taking the paycheck, giving themselves bonuses and all the while the common man decides which box under which bridge he will move to. That is human selfishness.


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

pattersonk2002 said:


> If I am reading this correctly, the bottom line is threads asking to flag CL adds and disscusions about them are not allowed and should be banned from being posted to start with. How many times do people on here have to waste there time on mute point when the could be cleaning there lofts better and loving what thay have. >Kevin
> Forum Rules of Conduct
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...





I'm confused. Are we doing something wrong here?


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## hasseian_313 (Oct 31, 2009)

IM against useing any animal just for training sence their is no hunting so it a waste of a life so i flagged it two but we should list the diffrent ways to tarin dogs other than the use of live birds to find a slotion i am not against hunting i hunt just never used dogs hope one day to get a pair of pointers or somthing just if your not gonna eat it dont kill it is my phlosphy


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

TN_PIGEON said:


> Not to knit-pick, but please clarify this statement. It doesn't make sense to me.


Do you know how to cultivate vegetables ?  I know you do and you will but can we expect that from a pack of lions ?
Humans have alternatives/routes to support living, which is far more *developed from the basic instinct * of hunting down a deer  Its "selfishness" - satisfying your hunger but then back to the pack of lions, they know only one way


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Cyreen said:


> I apologize, I wasn't aware they had a separate dictionary. To my knowledge all animals (that includes you) "do the only way they know" for their own purposes. This isn't a bad thing; it just is.


If it was not for the separate "dictionaries" you would not have even thought of "pets", set aside racing, shows, sniffing.......... even companionship different from that of your fellow human bodies


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

DebbyM said:


> I'm confused. Are we doing something wrong here?


Nothing wrong...as such, however nearly every thread that is started about this subject results in the same outcome.
Everyone has their own views on this and some get very heated when others disagree. It always ends up with moral highgrounds of one against the other and the argument snowballs totally off the original topic, and diversifies into further arguments and so on.
I tend to agree with Kevin, that whatever is going on in another forum is nothing to do with this forum and should be left alone.
It wont change anyones views on the particular subject, and it doesent stop the individual from doing what they want on that forum, but it will stop the constant arguments here.


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## hasseian_313 (Oct 31, 2009)

quazar your right but just to let ppl hunting allso keeps popultions down of some animals thats why in the usa their is regulated hunting but i belive and understand the other side's point of view and respeact it


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

DebbyM said:


> MsFreebird, after re-reading my post and your reply, I'm not sure where you and I have any different ideas on this matter. Aren't we both saying that animals work from a basis of instinctual behaviour and peoples behaviour is instinct mitigated by wants?


Ahhh, LOL Pretty much, Ya 
I just think animals are smarter when it comes to LIFE and easier to get along with


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## DebbyM (Oct 27, 2010)

Msfreebird said:


> Ahhh, LOL Pretty much, Ya
> I just think animals are smarter when it comes to LIFE and easier to get along with


You are right! They know how to live in the moment far better than we do if we ever even think about in between our never-ending plannning and scheming. And indeed, easier to get along with. You're so right.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

this ad was back in August.. perhaps it is not even on there any longer...


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## The_Dirteeone (Apr 18, 2010)

It isnt illegal to do this.I wouldnt myself,but many people hunt dove, quail. phesant,they are viewed as a problem to crops.Tons of money is made from phesant hunts.A local concrete compant here in GA. just spent 75 thousand on airfair lodging and hunting in south Dakota,for phesant hunters.I myself was raised as a hunter,but I dont do it anymore,because I have a love for most all animals,at the same time I dont criticize others for doing so.


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