# For All Those Who Care About All Birds



## phantom (Dec 10, 2004)

Please help, if you can. 

As you probably know, there will be a crow shooting contest in Auburn, NY (between Rochester and Syracuse) on Saturday and Sunday, February 12th and 13th. This is the third consecutive year for this senseless bird killing “contest.” We need to let Auburn know that many people care about crows, and find this type of event unacceptable.



For those of us who oppose the shoot, there will be a demonstration on Sunday the 13th at 2:00 p.m. in front of the Auburn City Hall, followed by a protest in front of the bar that is sponsoring the shoot. The bar is called J&B Bar and Grill (formerly Spinout's), and it’s located at 74 Orchard Street in Auburn.



There will also be a protest on Saturday the 12th (the first day of the shoot) in front of the bar at 4:00 p.m.



Please plan to attend one or both of the protests, and maybe next year there won’t be a shoot.


BE A VOICE FOR THE ANIMALS ...
YOU ARE THEIR ONLY HOPE.
(www.ARAUNY.org)

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[email protected].
To unsubscribe, email:
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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is just terrinle.
I get sick only thinking about it.

Is there a a way to write letters to somebody.?

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I love crows and that is disgusting to hear, but not surprising. I cannot be there though as I'm in Canada. I hope you get the support you need in this matter.


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## phantom (Dec 10, 2004)

*If you would like to help*

Here is a site you can look into if you want to help. It is sickening. Those who disregard life like this need to be stopped. You can also contact the ARA at the end of the previous message from me.

Phantom

SAVE THE CROWS: Auburn, NY
http://www.savethecrows.org/

This site will keep the public posted on the latest information concerning the the winter crow roost in Auburn New York.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phantom, 

I've put your post on a crow group I belong to so hopefully word will get out to many more crow lovers as well.


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## phantom (Dec 10, 2004)

Thank you Brad. I am limited in time and do not get a chance to look around too much on the internet. 

I hope others on this list don't mind me putting stuff in about other birds, as I care about all birds, and from what I have seen on this forum, there are some pretty caring people that will go the extra for all living things.

Phantom


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## sexzylilbrunet1 (Feb 3, 2005)

u noe wut i think this is really wrong but where i live crows bother my pigeons a ton the pluck at that em and if u think about it there is a VERY VERY VERY large socity of crows 
i read that they are the fastest breeding bird. sooo maby it isn't that bad!!!!

~*just saying*~


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

sexzylilbrunet1 said:


> u noe wut i think this is really wrong but where i live crows bother my pigeons a ton the pluck at that em and if u think about it there is a VERY VERY VERY large socity of crows
> i read that they are the fastest breeding bird. sooo maby it isn't that bad!!!!
> 
> ~*just saying*~


 Crows are very misunderstood birds, just like pigeons are. They are persecuted and generally disliked....JUST LIKE PIGEONS. The crows MIGHT nettle your pigeons, but you will find that they are actually a friend of the pigeon. They will keep hawks and mice away from your loft. They are egg thieves for sure but you have to ensure that they aren't able to enter your loft. They are probably more pigeons than crows around these days as well due to west nile virus which is having a big impact on crow populations in north america. So, don't hate the crow or think that wantonly killing them "Isn't that bad".


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I really love crows, I love all corvids, they are so intelligent and so beautiful! There can be no excuse at all for contests such as these.

I am so sorry that I am too far away to help by being there.

Cynthia


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## BrianNAmy (Nov 2, 2003)

Try contacting the Humane Society of the United States and see if they'll offer any media coverage about the protest. I've already contacted them myself. Public opinion never hurt 

Here are their main media contacts:

Nicholas Braden
Vice President of Communications
Phone: 301-258-3072

Rachel Querry
Director of Public Relations
Phone: 301-258-8255
E-mail: [email protected] 

Karen Louden Allanach
Media Relations Manager
Phone: 301-548-7778
E-mail: [email protected] Belinda Mager

Media Relations Associate
Phone: 301-258-3071
E-mail: [email protected]


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Brian and Amy, and Cynthia...

It's almost ironic at times, that people who are so enthralled with pigeons might neglect to see the similarities between the crow and pigeon. We all have our passions and interests but for myself, I'm a bird lover, a lover of animals period. I'm not really an activist per se but I try to do what is right and help when I can. Crows are such a facinating species of the birds. I find many parallels between them and pigeons actually. Perhaps it's the "under-dog" mentality However, Crows are such incredible representatives of the avian world and worth preservation and respect. If you take the time to research them, like pigeons, anyone can easily see the merits and reasons to give them full respect. 


Phantom, you have done a service in your posting here and don't worry, your concerns are taken to heart in the group. Speaking generally, we all love birds and wildlife and try to help if and when possible through any means possible.


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## BrianNAmy (Nov 2, 2003)

<preeching mode>
I also find it ironic that those people who care so much about American pass-times such as Football and Nascar seem to forget that it was a great American writer, Edgar Allen Poe who made the corvids famous with "The Raven".

In my opinion, if they want to pass the time between the Super Bowl and Nascar, they should spend it reading a few of his books instead of killing some icons of their own American heritage.
</preeching mode>


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

*wish I could go to the protest*

I wish I could make it to the protest but, I live in California. Give those crow shooters hell!

Frankly I'm suprised that it is legal to shoot native non-game birds. It seems like the activity would be prohibited by Fish and Game. Have you notified Fish and Game that this crow shooting contest is taking place? Does Fish and Game condone crow shooting?


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

I hope that these people can have a good time with thier "LEGAL" hunt and don't have to put up with a bunch of screwballs !!!!!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

WOW, Motherlodelofts, I'm really shocked at your response. Well, we are all entitled to our own personal beliefs here in the western world. Crows aren't directly related to this site on pigeons, but since it was brought up, I have a personal obligation to respond. Sometimes, topics get side tracked and off the beaten road but we all hope it's for a good reason. Again, I will stress that I myself I'm not an progressive activist looking for a fight but I will jump at the chance to give my opinion concerning wildlife. Crows are not doing so great right now, in laymens terms. Every species has their own problems and west nile virus is more than decimating a lot of crows all on it's own. I fail to see the difference between a person going out and killing pigeons -domestic or ferals for the fact that it's their "god given right" to hunt and kill those birds, than someone else going out and hunting and killing crows en masse. There is no distinct line here of which is "moral" or right. I think I'll head Lin's words of wisdom and just "agree to disagree" and leave it at that. Please try to understand and no hard feelings but I feel strongly opposed to you on this one.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

*screwball*

Then I guess I'm a screwball!

Motherslodelofts betcha you have lots of fun living with all of us bleeding heart treehuggers in California, huh?


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Good response Brad, yes we will agree to disagree here and a pigeon site isn't a good place to debate the amount of money towards conservation efforts and habitat not to even mention economys that are due to those that hunt and fish.

JGreg bleeding heart tree huggers aren't a real problem outside of the Bay area and S. Cal. thankfully and it's an awful big state, actually we don't put up with that nonsence around here. This is a pigeon site,why don't we keep it that way.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Motherlodelofts,
Your conscience allows you to kill your weak, sick and unstable pigeons. YOUR words, not mine. After reading that post in October, I felt you should have no connection to this forum. Every other member (that I am aware of) puts their blood, sweat and tears into SAVING lives. If memory serves, people such as yourself, were asked to PLEASE GO AWAY. 

How dare you defend the irresponsible killing of healthy crows, or any creature!
You have absolutely no right to call those protesters "screwballs"! They are defending the lives of innocent creatures. You, on the other hand, take the lives of innocent creatures! 

Scott, what is your definition of an "unstable" pigeon anyway? 

Phyll


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Phyll your showing "the love" again.

Hey Phyll if the people here want me to go away all they have to do is ask , I just stop in because I know that you miss me


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Of course this is just my opinion ... All creatures are a part of a complex eco system. When there is unnecessary death such as in killing crows, another part of the eco system is set off balence. Next, crows are a pigeons friend. Crows love to chase off hawks, which in turn, keeps are little feather friends safe.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Okay folks, let's continue to "play" nicely in this thread .. it's a controversial subject (and, yes, I have my opinions which favor the crows and not the "hunters").

I will tell you that at the last two "events" there were rehabbers at the site to pick up the crows that the "hunters" failed to kill outright and left to die a lingering death. I suspect those folks will be there again to pick up the wounded.

Terry


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Actually Tanya I think that thier populations are such due to agriculture and due to that I would assume that thier populations are probably much higher across the country than when this country was first settled.
I don't think that you can hunt them in California any longer except by permit due to crop damage, I thought that was "federal" which would over ride any state game laws.
Personally I see no reason to shoot a crow nor would I be part of such a shoot, and I also think that crows are pretty cool as I hand raised a couple as a kid. But nor am I so quick to trample on someone elses rights just because I disagree with it.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Actually Terry you got me thinking on this, I see no purpose in such things as it just brings a bunch of yahoos out for bloodsport which is bad all the way around and has little to do with real hunters other than hurting them. I was allways taught that if you shoot it you eat it. Anything else is nothing but senceless killing. Hmmm I guess that I changed my mind here


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, folks .. I saw something akin to the crow shoot .. it was a coot shoot .. the folks there to kill the birds were more bird brained than the birds. These "hunters" MANGLED about two hundred coots and went upon their way leaving many, many dozens of injured to be retrieved from the pond and surrounding area .. it was pitiful, heartbreaking, and disgusting. Nobody "took" their kill for food and the killers were inept.

I've also witnessed a coot poisoning .. also not a happy scene. The witless homeowners who voted for this were shocked at what happened .. but they got what they wanted .. no more coots .. for at least a little while.

It's sick, it's senseless, and it doesn't solve the problem.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Hot Topic ?*

It is one thing to think of such a topic in academic terms. What is needed is a few good video cameras to capture this event. Then the public at large can see for themselves if such an event is in anyway a "Sport." 

Perhaps the following year, a Robin shoot could then be organized. Perhaps in following years, a lottery could be held to select a specie ? 

There was an infamous event in Pa. known as the "Higgens Pigeon Shoot", it was the graphic pictures of children being sent out to pick up dead and wounded birds that converted some of us to the concept of basic "Animal Rights." The public outcry from the public over this video footage put an end to this "Sport." It was the same awareness that put an end to dog fights and cock fighting.

There are many pigeon fanciers out there who have a general mistrust of animal rights groups and "Tree Huggers." The fear is that someday, someone may question their own practices. 

I dare say, that I have an image in my mind of what these crow killers must look like. Tobacco chewing, pot belly, hicks who wanna take the yougins out for some cheap entertainment. Yes sir e, gonna kill me some crows, might even take the missus and all the kin, fer a day of fun !


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Ok you guys got me thinking on this one and turned me, it is senceless killing no doubt.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

Scott -- It's refreshing to see that sometimes a person's opinions can change, when that person is willing to consider other's points of view. I appreciate that you shared this with us.

Warren -- you are exactly right about an "event" like this being videotaped or having graphic pictures taken during it. It is one thing to read about such a thing, but when blood, guts and pain are shoved right in people's faces, you can be sure it would result in public outcry and negative attention toward the people that organized it. I am also a little embarrassed to admit I share your image of how the participants in an event such as this would look and act. I think we do this in order to reassure ourselves that thinking, reasoning, caring and civilized people would never even consider partaking in such a cruel, senseless activity....which would leave the "too stupid and ignorant to know any better" crowd.

It is a shame things like this go on in the name of "sport."

Linda


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

zoo keeper said:


> Of course this is just my opinion ... All creatures are a part of a complex eco system. When there is unnecessary death such as in killing crows, another part of the eco system is set off balence. Next, crows are a pigeons friend. Crows love to chase off hawks, which in turn, keeps are little feather friends safe.


 I am so happy to see everyone trying to protect the crows, as Zoo Keeper stated crows are a part of our land, they do protect our pigeons as they are territorial and do not like hawks in their area so they will chase any hawk that comes in their area away and alert the pigeons to their presense. I personally have fed the crows and where we lived in Washington all I had to do was go out in the back lot with leftovers hit the side of my pan and they all came a flying for their home cooked meal, I used to do this a couple of times a week. I can not tell you how many times a crow has saved the lives of my pigeons and we all should have a few around I think. 

Scott I am happy to see that you were able to see the entire picture of this senseless act of some people and the total ignorance people have of our feathered friends.

Ellen


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yes, thank you for taking the time to understand the bigger picture Motherlodelofts. It's very commendable of you to see that this slaughter is senseless and just cruel. Thanks for your comments everyone on this thread and seeing the similarities between crows and pigeons. Crows, pigeons, gulls, sparrows, starlings are all considered "pest" birds but they are all part of this world now and shouldn't be exterminated for the sake of "sport".


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## rosey_love (Mar 21, 2004)

I never knew that somthing like this was going on. Man if I knew this was going on im sure there wouldnt be another time it went on.


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## phantom (Dec 10, 2004)

*A few facts about crows*

1) Crows are one of the most intelligent animals. Please watch; Sir David Attenborough's "The Life of Birds" and "Nature: Triumph of Life: Brain Power" and especially "Inside the Animal Mind." on PBS.

2) Crows can be legally hunted in NY for 5 months. Remember the passenger pigeon, the only native American pigeon?

3) Crows have been accused of stealing grain from farmers fields, hence the hunting season, (as eating crow is not a good thing.) Harvesters lose more grain than the crows, or any bird, can eat and most goes to rot. Besides, the crows are not after the grain, I can guarantee that given a choice of grain or a mouse, a crow will eat a mouse, that is eating the grain, 100% of the time.

4) The number of crows has declined from West Nile Virus, as have many species. Remember there appears to be no bird species that is immune to it, including pigeons, though not all birds will get sick from it. I have several birds that tested possitive that never had any symptoms.

I know many wildlife rehabbers that hunt. I have nothing against hunting for food. It is the chain of life. The destruction of life for sport is unexceptable and stupid, especially when someone is ignorant of the facts, and chooses to remain so. 

I am sorry if I have hit some nerves, but it is time to let those who care know about this stuff, so it can be stopped and to encourage others to learn more about our wildlife.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phantom, 

Thank you for bringing this whole subject to our attention here in pigeons.com. It sparked a few disagreements at first but we are all mostly very passionate and caring people. The idea of hunting and killing crows for sport doesn't sit well with any of us I hope. I myself have always had a very special interest in crows my whole life...as far back as my interest in pigeons. Thank you for enlightening us more about the crow and showing us that they are worthy of much more investigation and protection.


Terry, your post about the coot killings didn't go by un-noticed either. You deal with all kinds of horrible situations involving cruel, ignorant people that do unthinkable acts to animals on a scale that most of us don't really see. I will never understand why this barbarism resides in the human physche.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Scott,
If you really are capable of recognizing senseless killing by others, maybe you will finally reconsider & allow your less-than-perfect pigeons to live. Each and every life (weak, sick & unstable included) is valuable. 
A few days ago, a member of this forum used every fiber of their being trying to provide the weakest of the weak a chance at life. 
Then there is someone like you, who nonchalantly states that they ONLY kill the weak, sick & unstable pigeons.
Your statement made it very clear that you do not care about animals. If they are of no monetary value & have the misfortune of being born in your loft ~ they're dead!
I don't know if you believe in God, but you better think about what you are doing. Who granted you the right to take the lives of HIS innocent creatures?

BTW, I do NOT miss you, so feel free to take a looong vacation away ~ let's make that, far, far away.

Phyll


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Love Thy Neighbor*

Your statement made it very clear that you do not care about animals. If they are of no monetary value & have the misfortune of being born in your loft ~ they're dead!
I don't know if you believe in God, but you better think about what you are doing. Who granted you the right to take the lives of HIS innocent creatures?

BTW, I do NOT miss you, so feel free to take a looong vacation away ~ let's make that, far, far away.

Phyll

My Dear Phyll,

I am not a moderator, and I am new to this site. I believe it is Bruce, who has started another post concerning "Hot Topics". I really appreciate your passionate love and concern for every pigeon of every description. 

May I suggest, that instead of showing someone the door when they have not embraced your passionate views, that you encourage them to remain, and to see the blood, sweat and tears that are employed to save the weak, sick and injured birds on this site.

In my personal situation, I have learned much. I never knew there were people out there who kept pigeons in their homes, and went to such great lengths to save a bird. You must realize that even the SPCA does not share your passion or viewpoint when it comes to sick or unwanted animals.

I am sharing this with you, because if you want to reach more people with your message, a more softer and kinder approach , might be more effective. There are perhaps 18,000 fanciers of racing pigeons just in the US of which Scott and myself are members.

I suspect that a fair number of these people eat meat and on occasion have eggs for breakfast. I am sure that quite a few of us have set mouse traps to keep mice out of our lofts also. I won't pass judgement as to wheather or not that means we do not believe in God, because of these actions. 

If you go down that road, then I would say that you have really entered what many would call "The Fringes", and what you could have shared, and what we could have learned from you, will never occur at all.

Can we show a little compassion and respect for each other, please ?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

Warren --- Excellent post...couldn't say it any better myself. Hope everyone will take it to heart.

Just a couple of thoughts to add...

Controversial topics -- I think we all have a much more enjoyable learning experience when we are all able to control any strong feelings we may harbor and discuss the topic "academically." Case in point was one of Warren's threads discussing the merits and downfalls of feeding ferals. I was afraid that one had the potential to turn into a brawl, but everyone was able to offer their opinions and reasons for their opinions in
a calm, reasonable manner. There were differing (and strong) opinions, but because everyone kept it civilized, we were able to agree to disagree in some cases, and have a very interesting conversation.

People who keep racing and show lofts vs people who feed ferals, keep them as pets, or keep small lofts for just pleasure --

I am going out on a limb here, because I really don't know for sure what I am talking about, but here goes: I imagine big racing loftkeepers like Scott, Warren, etc. have ways and methods they use in reference to everything: housing, training, breeding, treating illness and injury, that may be very different than the methods used by the people who rescue, rehab, keep pigeons as pets, find an injured feral and try to help it, etc. The racing people have alot of time, sweat and money invested in their sport so I imagine it can be somewhat like a business, therefore, they may have to have a more businesslike attitude when it comes to their birds. So, to Warren, Scott, and the rest I offer this advice: When it comes to controversial methods, we seem to have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy here at the forum. I know it may seem a little silly, but if you know that something you do will start an uproar here, please try to keep it to yourself. As we have seen, things you say can come back to haunt you.

Phyll and Scott -- You can disagree with each other...you don't even have to like each other... but when you both keep antagonizing each other back and forth with little comments, it's gets a little too personal and can go nowhere but downhill. 

Okay, Warren, thanks again for an excellent post.

Linda


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

*non-personal moderator view*

S-F-Lofts - 

That, to me, is the kind of reasoned and dignified response which is good for this forum. 

Everyone -

I shall take no side in this discussion, and wear my 'moderator hat' (tho of course I have my own views on pigeon /bird issues, like anyone).

First, pro-culling (of the lethal kind) discussion *is* a no-no. However, I think we should extend that to ANY discussion of that particular subject, be it pro- or anti-. That way, in that respect at least, there are not going to be sparks which can ignite a 'flame war'. Let's just leave it out of the agenda altogether, whatever our views.

Killing for 'sport'(?) is another emotive subject, as is hunting in its 'traditional' form, as is how one's religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) affect one's attitude towards non-human species - or human species, come to that! We cannot just 'ban' every topic or view which just _might_ be controversial, ad nauseum, however.

For the most part, things run pretty well here, because by and large we can express our views without antagonising others (well, too much  ) or, for that matter, beating any drums. Hopefully, we can keep it that way.

No offense is intended toward anyone here. If any is taken, that is by the individual's choice.

John D


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My opinion.

Phyll pleaded passionately for the lives of weak sick and unstable pigeons...can this really be classified as a controversial subject on a site that professes to be a celebration of the pigeon in all its forms? 

I agree that trading insults is a breach of this forum's courtesy rules and must be avoided but I disagree that people who feel passionately about preserving the lives of pigeons should be expected to control strong feelings and discuss the subject "academically" as if the lives that they seek to preserve were secondary to a pleasant discussion. 

Who is to say whose style is the most effective at winning people over? One person might be won over by reasonable discussion another by suddenly becoming aware of the incredible pain that their actions have on other human beings. 

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

_"The racing people have alot of time, sweat and money invested in their sport"_

My only comment is, the rescuer/rehabber people also have a lot of time (in some cases, countless hours), sweat *&* money invested in the birds they care for.  

Cindy


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

*I agree that trading insults is a breach of this forum's courtesy rules and must be avoided but I disagree that people who feel passionately about preserving the lives of pigeons should be expected to control strong feelings and discuss the subject "academically" as if the lives that they seek to preserve were secondary to a pleasant discussion.*

I have become used to some of my posts being picked at by certain members and usually ignore it, but I feel the need to clarify here.

I am greatly upset that my words would be twisted to allude that "pleasant" conversation is of the utmost importance, over saving or preserving lives.

I merely meant to say that most people are more willing to listen to reason or to change their opinions if emotional people avoid attacking or jumping down their throats, and try to discuss the differences of opinion in a calm, reasonable and repectful manner. It may not always be the most effective style at winning people over, but as a person who tries to show respect to everyone -- that is MY style.

Linda


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I have become used to some of my posts being picked at by certain members and usually ignore it


That is quite an accusation. Personally I can't remember "picking" on any of your posts , Lyn. I did a search to see if I was one of the members you are accusing. I didn't find anything to substantiate such an accusation. If I am one of the accused and you can substantiate it then please point me in the right direction so that we can discuss it calmly and reasonably. 



> I am greatly upset that my words would be twisted to allude that "pleasant" conversation is of the utmost importance, over saving or preserving lives.


I did not twist it, that is the way I read it. Thank you for clarifying.


Cynthia


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I merely meant to say that most people are more willing to listen to reason or to change their opinions if emotional people avoid attacking or jumping down their throats, and try to discuss the differences of opinion in a calm, reasonable and repectful manner. It may not always be the most effective style at winning people over, but as a person who tries to show respect to everyone -- that is MY style.

Linda

Hello Linda,

I must agee with you. Forgetting the subject this post started with for a moment. 

Human beings for the most part, will hear you out if you don't personalize it, and put the person on the defensive. This is HR 101 when trying to persuade someone to look at a situation. In the various management lectures I have attended, we were always advised to focus on the behavior, or issue. Once you personalize your communication, a person's defenses are up, and your effectiveness goes way down. Ever notice when you are attacked, physically or verbally, your adrenalin kicks in ? The fight or respose kicks in. This response does not lend itself to the open exchange of ideals. My grand mother understood this with that old "You catch more flys with honey, then vinigar" or something like that.  
Anyway, it is a beautiful Sunday afternoon here, I am glad to be alive. My birds are asking for some attention. And I love you all.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Cynthia,

I really don't want this to become a back and forth conversation between the two of us on this thread, but I just wanted to clarify that I said "pick at," not pick on and I did not name anyone publicly and I will not, as only an argument would ensue. I did not say it was you, I was speaking in general terms....it was merely the opening statement to a reply to illustrate how a sentence can be "picked" out of a post and be misunderstood or taken out of context.

And I did feel that the sentence that was picked out was totally turned around to sound like it was something it was not. Thank you for clarifying that it was unintentional and that was just the way you read it. I would have appreciated simply being asked if this was what I meant to say, instead of jumping to conclusions. I am sorry there was a misunderstanding, hope we can leave it at that.

Thank you,
Linda


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

On a positive note regarding this thread, in the crow group I belong to, some members there might have been "brought into the helm" so to speak about pigeons. Just like us pigeon people can learn from other bird enthusiasts, they can also learn from this group. When I posted the message about the crow killings, there was a response from someone who acknowledged our pigeon site as a beneficial resource to getting medications if needed to treat injured or sick crows as well how to learn to properly tube feed a bird. As I stated to this person, it's unfortunate, but the most commonly kept birds with the broadest followings, get access to medications-right or wrong. Bottom line, Our site may help some crows and people that care for them.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Crows and rooks*

Just a question, Brad, as we are on the topic of crows

Where I live there is a saying "If you see a rook on its own it's a crow. If you see two crows together they are rooks.". But I could swear that the three crows that I feed every day are crows, even though they arrive and leave as a group. Their beaks certainly look like crows beaks. Your opinion?

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cynthia, 

That is very difficult for me to answer because we don't have rooks here in north america. From what I KNOW, crows are more solitary than rooks are and only through close observation, can you tell the differece. Rooks don't have the wire-like feathers covering their nostrils like crows do. I would suppose their beaks look much longer and dangerous in person. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I didn't know that you didn't have rooks! I thought they were common to all countries!

Ah well, live and learn.

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> I didn't know that you didn't have rooks! I thought they were common to all countries!
> 
> Ah well, live and learn.
> 
> Cynthia


 LOL, nope...sorry but i wish we had rooks and jackdaws here...they would be most facinating for me to observe and study in the "field". Rooks and jackdaws are mostly only found in european and asian countries. There have been sightings of the occasional "traveller" over here, but not enough to populate the country yet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Jackdaws are absolutely fascinating! I feel honoured when one comes down to grab some grain when I feed the pigeons.

Cynthia


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Crow People*

When I was a kid, my grandmother had a pet crow ! I had forgotton about him till this post. His name was Elmer, and he was one loveable charactor. I would feed him dry cat food, and then he would take off for awhile. He got Grandma in some hot water, as he decided to hang out at the local market and beg for food as people were leaving.

How can I attract crows to my back yard ? They and ole Mr. Cooper don't get along so well, which suits me just fine.  I had put out field corn and the like, but that doen't seem to interest them. I respect ole Mr. Cooper, I just want him to stay on the other side of the nighborhood, and leave my babies alone !


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Actually I see nothing wrong with phylls post at all , everybody come's from different backgrounds and along with that different points of view. And because the point of view isn't shared doesn't make it wrong. 
Phyll you are very judgmental towards me and you know nothing about me, but thats ok. 
Growing up the bulk of our food came out of the pasture or the barnyard. And we had lots of pets and yes there is a difference between the two, we raised Cattle,horses,pigs,sheep, goats, chickens,ducks, geese,peacocks,guinee hens and plus I had my pigeons. Highschool was about school was Future farmers of America for me.
Today I still have the pigeons plus Barbados sheep, a few select breeds of Bantams,Geese, a few cats,a dop and a couple of cockitiels and of course my pigeons which are Birmingham Rollers that I raise train and compete, these birds are old bloodline and there are many years of work behind these birds and I take them very serious. And no they aren't pets.
I know how to mend them,keep them healthy and know what to do if I have a problem in the loft and end up with a sick bird.
If a bird is sick and weak the first thing that you do is figure out the problem and why, and then make the decision on what to do and many time's you make the decision due to "compassion" it may consist of mending and healing or it may it may be best to put it down, if they are born sick and weak then it's automatic that they are put down as thier fate was allready detemined and natures way is the harshest of all, one thing is for sure and that is "NO" animal or bird should ever be allowed to suffer and I've seen a few posts here where that has been allowed to happen by trying to save a bird that is doing nothing but suffering. Those that care for or raise birds or raise animals should not do so if they cannot deal with ending suffering of such when it warrents it as such situations are going to come up. When these situations come up not being able to deal with it is crualty and nothing short of it no matter how well meaning someone thinks that they are. Last year I had to put down my 16 year old lab out of compassion and no I didn't take him to the vet to do it, I loved that old dog to much for that and he is burried under a tree out here. Of coarse you won't understand what I'm saying here, but thats ok.
You mention profit, I sell nothing as I make a very good living and that is not why I keep the animals and birds that I do, but I do help many new people out whenever I can either with birds or helping out in other ways a few of which are members here. As for believing in God, what kind of quetion is that phyll ????? the answer to that is yes, 100 0/0 but I try not to be so quick on passing judgment. But when I do get off base I know when to back up and try to make it right but I won't do so just to fit a mold of those around me but I will keep an open mind. So phyll in ending it it obvious that my presence is very upsetting to you as every chance you get you feel a need to slam me here, so I'll leave it "soley" up to you. If you want me gone just give me the word phyll and I'll make your day by not coming back, it's your call phyll


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Speaking for myself, I understand where you're coming from, farming life isn't for everyone but sometimes we have to realize that these folks KNOW and have been through a lot more than many of us. Scott, I respect you and think you are an asset to the group. You already made ammends in my mind as far as I'm concerned and nobody-NOBODY is perfect. It seems that this constant condemnation vs retribution will never end with so many different points of view. We all must just have respect, and hope that we are in this together and try our darndest to be good people. I'm going to bed now because It's way past this night workers hours....LOL Be good everyone.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Last year I had to put down my 16 year old lab out of compassion and no I didn't take him to the vet to do it, I loved that old dog to much for that


Excuse me for being "controversial" everyone, but I didn't introduce this subject and silence is tacit agreement. At least that is my opinion.

Euthanasia is all about stopping unnecessary suffering and that very action of killing an animal should not include suffering. To make sure of this procedures should be adopted to make it unlikely the animal suffers. The recommended drug that should be used is pentobarbitum sodium...given under the direction of a veterinary surgeon...the preferred method is by injection via an intravenous route...

Not my own words. I have quoted the words of the director of an internationally known wildlife hospital.



> one thing is for sure and that is "NO" animal or bird should ever be allowed to suffer and I've seen a few posts here where that has been allowed to happen by trying to save a bird that is doing nothing but suffering.


Animals do not have much. The one thing they have is "life" and they will fight tooth and claw to preserve that one thing. If we are caring for animals then it is our duty to give each patient that chance to keep that life.

Yes, another quotation from the same source! 

Killing a bird is not the only way of relieving its suffering. Rescuers fight both to relieve a bird's suffering and to preserve its life. (My own words.)

I have rescued many, many birds but only a handful were genuine candidates for euthanasia. They were euthanased by the vet. I would always seek a second opinion before depriving any animal of its life. I am positive that birds whose suffering was so great as to merit being killed would not be wooing, cooing and mating in the aviary as mine are.

Cynthia


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Euthanasia*

I would always seek a second opinion before depriving any animal of its life. 

Cynthia,

I think we have gotten way off the original topic of killing crows for so called "sport." And since the public can not even agree on the topic of euthanasia when applied to humans, I certainly don't think different views on animal husbandry as it relates to euthanasia will be resolved here either.

Without judging you on the merits, am I to take from your writings that you avoid all animal products and byproducts entirely ? I mean down to not wearing leather shoes, or using products which were developed with animal research ? Do you also hold other life forms, such as fish, in the same regard ? If you avoid chicken, but eat tuna, for example, how do you reconcile that in your own mind ? If you do eat tuna, what if as a result of that, dolphines are caught and injured. 

I am a city dweller, and as such, I depend on getting my food from the supermarket. I just wondered how most of us, can condemn the farmer for supplying us with the items we eat. I never met a person who felt so passionate about all life forms, that they successfully avoided all animal products. Heck, if you own a cat, what do you feed it ? Personally, I enjoy all the bounty that the good Lord has provided us with. I have never eaten a pigeon, but if my life depended on it some day, I would.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

We have indeed strayed far from the original topic. With respect to everyone here, I do believe that we really not going anywhere constructive with this in terms of what this forum is about.

I have a strong feeling that this thread is likely to be terminated pretty soon - so I shall do so now.

If anyone objects, feel free to complain to the moderators in general or to the administrators.

John


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