# Genetics question - Grizzles



## Ptera

Hello, all. This is my first post. I'm relatively new to pigeon-keeping but have been a bird nut my whole life. I have two pet former-homing pigeons (rescues--the owners didn't want them after they failed to complete a race). I find pigeon genetics very complicated but I THINK my male is a Homozygous Grizzle, and my female is a blue bar (photo attached). They recently hatched their first two babies which appear to be Homozygous Grizzles (see photos),but they have far more white than their father. I gathered from a previous post that all their babies may come out exactly the same as these. Would that be a fair assumption? Or could some look like the mother? I don't know anything about the parent's parents. I have more photos if needed. Thanks!


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## NZ Pigeon

The young cannot be homozygous as the hen does not carry grizzle so the young are not able to pick up two genes of the . I would also think the grizzle parent is heterozygous so you should get half like these and half non grizzle.


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## sev3ns0uls

wait until they molt. Since the babies are only hetero grizzle(only got 1 dose of grizzle) they should not have a lot of white feather. But sometime things just dont look like they way they should be.

I had the same experience before with one of my pair and im pretty clueless about it.

Blue check cock x a rec. white hen (she is a red grizzle underneath)









Their very first round of babies 2 grizzles. a red grizzle cock and a blue grizzle hen. 
*yes, they look like **** grizzle but after they molt, they become darker*


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## Ptera

*Thanks & more questions!*

Thanks for your replies. I'll be curious to see what happens after the first moult. The babies are currently much whiter than dad. The picture on the left is one of the babies. The picture on the right is dad. He has a lot of blue on his entire neck. And he is barless. (Mom is a blue bar). 

Could the hen be carrying a hidden gene for the white grizzle? (Sorry if it's a dumb question. I'm a novice at all this). 

Pigeon dad is 10 years old. I've had him for 9 years. I've only had the mom for a year and a half and she looked immature when I got her so she's probably not much older than that. Do you think the male is near the end of his lifespan? How old can they get?


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## sev3ns0uls

Yes its possible that the hen may carry other genes. maybe rec genes but for sure not grizzle since grizzle is a dominate gene. Any birds carries grizzle will show it. 
Questions: does she have any white feather around her eyes or any other part? 

From the look, they babies will moult to darker birds like the father.

10 years is not too old. Some birds live up to 20 years.


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## Ptera

Great, Pidgie may have many more years left! He probably thought he died & went to heaven after 9 years of being alone then the new bird happened to be a female. I thought at first he wouldn't accept a new loft-mate but there was no problem, instantly!

As far as I can tell, the female has no white on her whatsoever. Here's a bigger photo. Are her lighter markings the normal blue bar markings?


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## AZCorbin

IMO your cock appears to be homozygous. Having said that the grizzle which I work in my breed does not respond the same as most breeds do. I base my opinion on the lack of bars in your cock and visible bars in your young.


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## tmaas

Petra, the youngsters may moult onto a much darker color as adults. There is also the possibility that they will always be lighter than their father because of modifying genes from the mother. It is also possible that the father is carrying recessive modifier genes which he doesn't express on himself, or maybe he is a combination of two different types of grizzle and only one of those types is present in the youngsters.

When I was a kid I had a feral cock bird that looked very similar in color to yours who, when mated to blue check and ash check hens, ALWAYS produced torts and grizzles that were lighter in color than the father. In some cases they were pure white with only a few dark feathers on their head, tail and flights. My feral bird was actually blue check pattern with grizzle (tortoiseshell), which may be the case on your bird as well. 

Sure is nice that your old boy finally has the chance to raise a family.


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## Ptera

Thanks so much. I will post a picure of them after their first molt. It will be interesting to see what happens. I might let the parents hatch two more babies also. After that I won't have enough room in the loft. BTW, the babies hatched near the end of December, when the temperatures here were in the single digits on some nights. They really had me worried they'd freeze to death but they did fine. I well-insulated the nest box and sealed up the door to it at night to keep the heat generated from "pigeon power" inside. The babies are now voluntarily walking around on the ice outside this week!


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## Woodnative

Pretty birds. BTW your father is not "barless" per se. That is I am sure he has bars or checks but they can't be seen because of all the white on him. You can think of it as white paint "covering" the color and pattern. The hen is a blue bar. Grizzle looks different on the different patterns (bar, check, T-pattern) too. I don't raise grizzles but I wonder if Evan or Becky or someone could comment more on the babies there. Whatever genetics is going on they are very nice!


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## Ptera

*Update!*

So here are the babies after their first molt. To those who predicted they would molt in darker...you were right! I also attached a pic of one of the babies next to the father for comparison. 

The parents have now hatched a second set of babies that were quite a surprise. I'll post photos of them separately.


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## Ptera

*New batch*

So I let the parents hatch two more babies. I was curious if any would turn out to be blue bars like the mother, or if they would look like the father again....and surprise! I don't know what pattern this is called?!?!?

Of course it's too early to tell what their adult plumage will look like, but I hope they stay the same because it's an attractive pattern. There is grey and white on almost every feather.

These random parents that literally fell out of the sky have produced some nice offspring, but I think this will be all the babies I let them have since my loft is getting full. 

Is it unusual that the pairs in each batch of babies were very alike in coloring, but each batch was a different color? How does that work? 

Any new thoughts on the parents' genetics after seeing more of their offspring?


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## sev3ns0uls

okay, let me give this another shot. The grizzle gene is one of the dominate mutation gene; no matter if the birds is homozygous(2 grizzle dose) or heterozygous(1 grizzle dose) will express the grizzle effect on its feather. "A bird will not express grizzle if it doesn't carries it."

If you case, the father is a heterozygous grizzle(1 dose grizzle) while the hen is just a typical wild type/blue bird nothing special. Which means that every babies they have will have a 50% chance of being heterozygous grizzle like their father and 50% will be normal wild type/blue bird like the mother. 

Luck you, all of your 4 babies are hetero grizzles and none are wild type/blue bird. 

keep breeding them and you will eventually get a normal blue bird.


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## tmaas

Although four offspring are not really enough for an accurate prediction, based on the consistency of expression of color in all four, here's my two cents. First, it's looking like the father may be homozygous for checker pattern because all four youngsters are obviously not bar pattern (classic grizzle), like their mother. Second, I suspect that the father is homozygous grizzle, and homozygous for an additional recessive, unidentified, gene that prevents the grizzle factor from expressing "normal" ****. grizzle effect. To prove this possibility you could mate two of the siblings together in an attempt to produce a mimic of the old father. The odds would be 1 in 16, so make room for more birds and use education as your excuse,  but you'd want to produce more than four het. grizzles from this original pair before taking my suspicion to an extreme level.


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## sev3ns0uls

i agree with tmaas on this one: the cock may be a homozygous grizzle and a check pattern underneath. 

I will also suggest this, instead of breeding the babies together, why not just keep breeding the pair. I will say after you bred more then 10-15 rounds and if no wild type/blue bird(without grizzle) then the cock is a homozygous grizzle. But out of those 10-15 rounds and you got just 1 wild type/blue bird(regardless the pattern); this will confirm that the cock is hetero grizzle after all.


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## loonecho

One thing is for sure. They have given you some very attractive grizzles so far. Nice looking birds.

Jim


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## Ptera

Thanks! I'll post more pictures after their molt.


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## GrMike

Nice looking birds. And welcome to pigeon talk.


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## Ptera

So it's been a year and I wanted to post an update now that all the babies are in their adult plumage. All their colors have darkened significantly. Unfortunately, one from the first set of babies flew off & never returned, so I only have one left from the first hatch (its on the left in the photos). It looks a lot like the father but has less white. The two from the second hatch are much darker: both a mixed mottled grey/white.


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