# another money maker...V V's Surebet at Ipigeon



## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

almost all 21 birds have bids on it....


http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewInCat.asp?ID=260



kalapati
San Diego


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yep. I'm a bidder on one of them. I don't expect to win though. Going to go too high I think.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I all ready have 4 of his birds if I get more I'll never get out of the dog house.
Dave


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## JRNY (Nov 17, 2009)

conditionfreak said:


> Yep. I'm a bidder on one of them. I don't expect to win though. Going to go too high I think.


Never know good luck.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Hard to spend that money on a bird with no race record. Just goes to show you that paper means more than basket. Maybe this is why the basket guys keep on kicking the butt of the paper guys. Granted the paper guys have thicker wallets. 
Funny that I can auction a bird that wins a race and is off of a Vic Miller bird that did well in a futurity x a Full Janssen bird whos 4 grandparents are out of the Janssen loft. The race record and breeding record show 90% of the birds out of the pair showing winners and they are "good eye", "strong back", "one pin tail", "tight vent" etc birds. But the bird will only bring in $100. VV can put a bird up for auction with "Sure Bet" in the pedigree twice with no race record and get $1000. 

Funny how people are.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

I don't under stand these people who get in a bidding war two or three days before an auction closes. If I can still afford to bid on a bird, or anything else, I make a bid one minute before the auction closes. This works best when there is only a few people bidding. It also discourages shill bidders, or doesn't give them time to make a shill bid.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Hard to spend that money on a bird with no race record. Just goes to show you that paper means more than basket. Maybe this is why the basket guys keep on kicking the butt of the paper guys. Granted the paper guys have thicker wallets.
> Funny that I can auction a bird that wins a race and is off of a Vic Miller bird that did well in a futurity x a Full Janssen bird whos 4 grandparents are out of the Janssen loft. The race record and breeding record show 90% of the birds out of the pair showing winners and they are "good eye", "strong back", "one pin tail", "tight vent" etc birds. But the bird will only bring in $100. VV can put a bird up for auction with "Sure Bet" in the pedigree twice with no race record and get $1000.
> 
> Funny how people are.


It just shows how well the marketing machine works. I will take a proven racer over a pedigree every time. I've heard of too many stories of over priced birds being culls. 
Someone once explained it as Bill Clinton became president of the USA and his brother Roger Clinton couldn't even run a trailer park. 
Winners breed winners but not every member of a family is worth spending big money on. Thats why a proven race winner is more valuable in my opinion.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

You are right winners breed winners sometimes, I have found that a winners, brother or sister that did not fly good sometimes breeds better birds, also a inbreed line to another inbreed line works wonders. just what I have learn by only using the basket.
I have breed 4 birds this year from the line you guys are talking about "Sure bet"
Two babies from the cock side, Two babies from the hin side, One babie from each side
won races, the other two come home in good time, now witch ones would you all breed from? "as for me it would be all four"


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I would also breed from all four and see if there's a major drop off in performance in their young. If the young still all perform well then you can say you have a consistent good performing strain of birds with that bloodline.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would also breed out of all 4 except I would take special care of the birds that just came home good. Rotondo, Hietzman, and over the last year on Pigeon radio I've always herd that out of each nest that one is a good flier while the other is the good breeder. Now these are people that keep exelent records over several generations so you can belive what you want.
Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Ha Ha.

So may opinions about winners and breeders. How does one know until they try this or that bird?

Some lousy racers make good breeders. Some good racers make lousy breeders.

It is luck to find a pair that clicks, I say. I could mate a good racer to a lousy racer and end up with Sure Bet II. All I can do is try my best and hope for the best.

I have purchased many 100 dollar birds with good race records and their offspring have been no better than the offspring from my average race record birds, or no race record birds.

It is mostly about the handler, I say again. The birds matter for sure. But just ever so slightly.

The reason I am not winning a lot is because I do not do with my birds, what the winners are doing with their birds.

I submitt that the only difference between a $100 bird and a $1000 bird, is $900.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Here is what I do not get. The Sure Bet Birds are going for Thousands and birds like this one off the same auction site do not even have a bid. This would be a Clinton brother that I would not mind having. 

NL 1233834-06 Blue Male
Item #: 81178
Description: NL-1233834-06 Blue Male – Violet Eyes – Bred by: Wal Zoontjens of Holland Europe~!! Full Brother of: “TELETEKS” Wals Top racer and breeder~!! Winning 4th National 14,898 birds – 4th National 4,318 birds – 7th National 9,319 birds~!!

Both parents were very good racers. 

I have a daughter off of Verinque that won 1st nat Borgues against 15k birds I paid $50 for. I am not getting this.

This bird is even going for less than the Sure Bet stuff. 
NEWS FLASH HAS SIRED EQUAL FIRST VEGAS CLASSIC 2010
Bred by: Bill Tadlock~!! Winner 08 Vegas Classic Winning over ( $45,000.00 ) in prizes~!! Super Breeder~! Bred 1st clock bird 300 miles Dutch 300 – plus 2nd Average speed winner in 2009 and 2010~!


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Thats not Clinton's brother, that his dad.
Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have purchased many 100 dollar birds with good race records and their offspring have been no better than the offspring from my average race record birds, or no race record birds.

Now how does Rotondo put it, A great handler can take an average bird and make it great. And an average handler can take a great bird and make it average.
Dave


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Crazy Pete; said:


> Now how does Rotondo put it, A great handler can take an average bird and make it great. And an average handler can take a great bird and make it average.
> Dave


I would like to believe thats true. That means there is hope for those of us with mortgages and a family to support without alot of surplus income.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have purchased many 100 dollar birds with good race records and their offspring have been no better than the offspring from my average race record birds, or no race record birds.
> 
> Now how does Rotondo put it, A great handler can take an average bird and make it great. And an average handler can take a great bird and make it average.
> Dave


In my opinion I would get grandchildren of the greats for less and learn to be a good handler. This way you start with good bloodlines and then find the best out of the bunch. Takes a few years, but a lot cheeper. I would save my money and buy a video on the dark system. Any bird with a full wing will fly better than a Sure Bet bird missing flights.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have purchased many 100 dollar birds with good race records and their offspring have been no better than the offspring from my average race record birds, or no race record birds.
> 
> Now how does Rotondo put it, A great handler can take an average bird and make it great. And an average handler can take a great bird and make it average.
> Dave


Exactly my point. I am an average handler and I know it.

I guess the questions are thus: Should I buy the best I can afford, or birds that are way under my budget? Should I take what I have already and work at being a great handler? Should I try and buy diplomas? Or, should I buy the best I can afford AND try to become a great handler?

The obvious answer is the latter. But I don't. Life has a way of getting in the way of pigeon racing. I have a friend who LIVES for pigeon racing. He wins a lot.

But he has no life other than that.

I choose to dabble with pigeon racing. For the fun of it. Not for the money or the sales of young birds.

It takes all kinds to make the world go around. They say.

Pigeons are not a full or part time JOB for me. If I win any money at it, I consider it dumb luck and nothing more.

I do it for the sheer enjoymnet of being in the back yard and seeing a bird circle and drop on race day, an hour before I thought I would see one. There is nothing better than that to a TRUE pigeon racer.

But I ain't gonna devote my life to racing pigeons. Nor even 4 hours a day. It takes me 40 minutes at most, to care for my birds (I have four lofts). Unless I am taking them on a training toss.

Some people remind me of the government, when it comes to anothers money. Telling another how they should spend their money. It is THEIR money. They can do with it what they wish. If they want to spend it on grandchildren of Sure Bet at $1000 dollars a drop. Then who should mind otherwise?


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Here is what I do not get. The Sure Bet Birds are going for Thousands and birds like this one off the same auction site do not even have a bid. This would be a Clinton brother that I would not mind having.
> 
> NL 1233834-06 Blue Male
> Item #: 81178
> ...


those are always the birds I would look for myself , the ones with good records to back them up that no one wants to take the chance on because they dont have the name behind them  what a bargain it would be to line your loft with


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think this bird has a potential:http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=81389

I see so many birds there that has potentials. And they are not that expensive, too! People should take the chance.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

people are always discarding worthwhile pigeons every year for very little as they are always trying to make room for their next years great adventures to come , all you have to do is be willing to take a chance on them and see what comes of it ..ones top 20% can easily breed your next years 10% easily if you follow up at the right times


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

RodSD said:


> I think this bird has a potential:http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=81389


Rod I love that bird out of all the rest from that surbet sale but thats on looks alone


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

conditionfreak,
Why are you beating on this bird? http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=81397

It doesn't look balance to me. It looks tail heavy. If there is a headwind that might help, but usually I think race has fair weather. I suppose you see something in this bird that others don't.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

That is the brother to the bird conditionfreak is biding on, I think his hen looks better.
Dave


Sorry red the numbers wrong


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> Exactly my point. I am an average handler and I know it.
> 
> I guess the questions are thus: Should I buy the best I can afford, or birds that are way under my budget? Should I take what I have already and work at being a great handler? Should I try and buy diplomas? Or, should I buy the best I can afford AND try to become a great handler?
> 
> ...


I will apologize if my postings on the subject came across as me telling you how to spend your money. Its your hobby and none of my business how much you want to invest in the sport. My fiancée' would strangle me if I spent that kind of money on a bird. Then again if I did take the gamble and won a futurity race plus won back all my money with a profit she would be as happy as if we won the lottery. Different strokes for different folks..but on the forum everyone is entitled to share their experiences and opinions. 

If I had a friend that was winning in the races locally..I would try to buy his best of his best. Thats me though..I'm not a follow the leader type. I don't need photo shop pictures of birds and pedigrees with "everything you want to see". Thats what I love about this sport..you don't have to spend a fortune to win. Its almost comical how many times new fliers with free birds have beaten the lofts with expensive CBS / Imports. At the end of the day these birds do not even know they are racing...they are just flying home from wherever they are released.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

RodSD said:


> conditionfreak,
> Why are you beating on this bird? http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=81397
> 
> It doesn't look balance to me. It looks tail heavy. If there is a headwind that might help, but usually I think race has fair weather. I suppose you see something in this bird that others don't.


I am sure you meant "bidding" and not "beating". I am also sure you did not mean "Others" but instead meant "you".

I guess I do see something different than you do. VV does describe it as "100% perfect small body", or something like that. I think most of us would agree that VV knows racing pigeons.

I do not see it as tail heavy. I see it as darn near perfect looking. Hard to tell a racing pigeon from a photo though. Heck, I can't tell a winner in my hands. I can tell what I like and what I don't like, in my hands. I always look for "bouyancy".

The thing is with this bird. I am willing to give it a chance and if I don't get it, I will never know. If it doesn't pan out, it can join the others that didn't pan out, in my fourth loft.

Additionally, I recall that Spud Web won the slam dunk contest in the NBA many years ago. He was 5'7" at best. Mugsy Bogues was 5'4 at best and was a great player. I have a friend who is in the NBA now (Earl Boykins, Milwauke Bucks) who is 5'5" and is a terror on the basketball court. I played on the same team as his father "back in the day", on a State Olympics team. We took third place sadly. Size, stature and "looks" count little in humans and in racing pigeons, IMO. It is desire, training and health. That is why an ugly looking pigeon can beat a beautiful pigeon, if the ugly pigeon is given more incentive. If a handler could give the exact same incentive to a beautiful pigeon and an ugly pigeon, then we could find out something. But that would be very very hard to do, given the different personalities of our winged warriors.

But something tells me this one will do just fine. Assumming I win the bidding, which I do not think will happen. If I read the rules correctly, these birds are up for auction on ipigeon, but then go up for auction in a live and in person format, at a later date. So even if I am the high bidder on the internet, I can still be out bid at the "in person" auction.

This bird will go for a lot more than I am willing to bid, I suspect. If it does, then apparently there is at least one other person that thinks it has potential, as I do.

But it's all a crap shoot with buying racing pigeons anyway. My expensive pigeons are breeding birds that are comparable to my cheap pigeon breedings. Not much difference that I see. Actually, my best birds have thus far been gifts or 6 for 100 bucks (ie: the birds I got from ace in the hole).

I would go so far as to say, that if I win the bidding on this bird. Then you have a better eye about pigeons than I do. And apparently so does everyone else.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My point exactly. Wal Zoontjens of Holland is one of the best fliers in Europe and is ten times the breeder/racer that VV or Ganus is, yet his birds can be bought for pennies on the Ganus dollar. There are bargains out there, you just need to educate yourself to find them.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

What did they cross with zoontjens to get sure bet?
Zoontjens are distance birds but how are they winning middle one loft races?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

fresnobirdman said:


> What did they cross with zoontjens to get sure bet?
> Zoontjens are distance birds but how are they winning middle one loft races?


Did not say Zoontjens blood is in Sure Bet, just making a point.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

fresnobirdman said:


> What did they cross with zoontjens to get sure bet?
> Zoontjens are distance birds but how are they winning middle one loft races?


http://www.walzoontjens.duiven.org/index.php
Zoontjens do well from all distances. Not sure that Sure Bet birds are not given an advantage in the futurities when Ganus or VV puts 16 birds in a race with 300 birds. When others send 3. They buy the odds in the crap shoots. Love to see the AU race where I have to go 20 places or so before I see one of the big names. Gives the small guys hope. Hope the winner was not 3% Sure Bet or we will have to endure another Sure Bet bird winning a big race on the cover of the digest.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Could not find the lineage of Sure Bet. Seems like Ganus and VV are guarding his heritage with fluff. Might not want us going to the source for the same stock. Bet they are a lot cheeper from the source also.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

conditionfreak if you are just average and just doing it for fun why are you bidding on a sure bet bird?
I'm willing to bet just like the rest of us you would like to win and beat the tail off the SFL's in your club and in any one loft race you may enter.
Dave


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Sure Bet is a grand son of Super Crack 699.
Dave


google NL 92 1360699


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

conditionfreak said:


> I am sure you meant "bidding" and not "beating". I am also sure you did not mean "Others" but instead meant "you".


Maybe it is because grandma won 1st against 12k birds. Winners come in all shapes and sizes. The bird looks good to me.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> Sure Bet is a grand son of Super Crack 699.
> Dave


Yep, I found a pedigree http://www.deisherspdqracinglofts.com/gfl968.html at the previous link showing he is grandson of 699, but now I had a brainfart and can't remember where 699 came from, but he is a famous pigeon to say the least.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

On Ganus website, it says the H and O family for Supercrack 699...


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> conditionfreak if you are just average and just doing it for fun why are you bidding on a sure bet bird?
> I'm willing to bet just like the rest of us you would like to win and beat the tail off the SFL's in your club and in any one loft race you may enter.
> Dave


Don't think you will beat SFL in the futurities by buying one 3k pigeon. Warren has developed a family over years to win at 300 miles. It all depends on what you breed that Sure Bet to. Maybe you should start with and SFL bird and see if the SFL's get better. Warren looked to the Ludo birds. Wonder why he passed on the Sure Bet line?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Matt Bell said:


> On Ganus website, it says the H and O family for Supercrack 699...


Once again Ganus shows limited info.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

From what I can figure out H&O lofts is Arte Ouweerkerk and Kees Van Hemert


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

hillfamilyloft you are correct one daughter of Sure Bet wont do it but it sure is a good start. I crossed mine with Hollywood Rocket cross. Even Warren had to start some place.
Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Crazy Pete said:


> hillfamilyloft you are correct one daughter of Sure Bet wont do it but it sure is a good start. I crossed mine with Hollywood Rocket cross. Even Warren had to start some place.
> Dave


You are correct. Warren also went to Ganus for a piece of his family. His president line has done very well for him. Ganus does bring in some good birds. My foundation can also be traced back to some Ganus birds. If I added up what was spent on every bird in the pedigree, I could buy a nice house. They are definitely quality birds. It is what you do with them that counts. Many have not taken the blinders off and realized there is good stock elsewhere also for much more reasonable prices. You can import the same blood for a fraction of the price. The might not be a great great great great grandson of the super crack, but they may just be a direct sibling or offspring of a bird that won against 15k pigeons.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I am sure you meant "bidding" and not "beating". I am also sure you did not mean "Others" but instead meant "you".
> 
> I guess I do see something different than you do. VV does describe it as "100% perfect small body", or something like that. I think most of us would agree that VV knows racing pigeons.
> 
> ...


You are correct. I meant it to be "bidding." But the "others" quote I meant it to be others and not me. I say that because of all the Surebet birds, the "other" people have chosen other birds. So I was curious what you saw in this bird.

I agree that you have to handle bird to see if it is buoyant and/or balance.

I agree that in certain sports there are exceptions. A short guy can do well in basketball if that person can shoot. A short guy, however, will still be at a disadvantage.

I suppose you have animal stock sense. If so, then that is good. Of all the birds listed I, unfortunately, would not have chosen your choice of bird. I suppose we are different and with a different taste or criteria for birds. Good luck in your bidding!


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Don't think you will beat SFL in the futurities by buying one 3k pigeon. Warren has developed a family over years to win at 300 miles. It all depends on what you breed that Sure Bet to. Maybe you should start with and SFL bird and see if the SFL's get better. Warren looked to the Ludo birds. Wonder why he passed on the Sure Bet line?


Ha Ha

If I win this hen (which I won't because I did not bid THAT high), I will do as Warren did and cross it with a Ludo line cock bird that I purchased off of ipigeon last year.

See. I can be taught. 

Crazy Pete: To answer your question of "why". It is because it is fun to buy racing pigeons. Especially those from the Sure Bet line. Some people just like to shop. That's me (girlish, I know). 

It is all about fun. Of course I like winning, and of course I like winning money. But winning isn't everything and neither is money. Enjoyment of life is. Family is. But not winning and not money.

I would enjoy owning a Sure Bet line pigeon for 400 bucks or so. But not for two grand or so.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Winning isn't everything and neither is money, that is the opposite of everything my parents ever told me. You must have plenty of money and a fantastic wife to let you shop, and have 4 lofts. And they say I'm crazy.
Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Winning can make your hobby even more fun. Yeah, winning isn't everything, but if you keep on losing sooner or later it will get you. You will get sad. You may even quit. And if you have low quality birds it will even pissed you off. A hobby that pisses you off is never fun. Obsessive attempts of winning at the expense of other things in life makes you a loser already. I suppose that is why we want some balance. Money is a two-edge sword. It will amplify your weakness and your strength.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm not the type to get obsessed but I do like to gamble and I am very competitive so I'm always trying to get better birds.
Dave


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

I purchased a cock bird about a year ago, who is a grandson of "SUPER CRACK 699" & "ROCKET". He is in love with an 09 hen who is a double inbred grand daughter of "ROCKET". I can't wait to see their youngster's.


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## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm with conditionfreak, that hen looks beautiful to me. She in my opinion is perfect looking. good luck cf I hope you win her. 

Hank


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I purchased a cock bird about a year ago, who is a grandson of "SUPER CRACK 699

So in the ped did it say 699 was mated to NL 1560140-90 If so you have a full bro to Sure Bet. Well maybe not a full bro but damn close.
Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

RodSD said:


> Winning can make your hobby even more fun. Yeah, winning isn't everything, but if you keep on losing sooner or later it will get you. You will get sad. You may even quit. And if you have low quality birds it will even pissed you off. A hobby that pisses you off is never fun. Obsessive attempts of winning at the expense of other things in life makes you a loser already. I suppose that is why we want some balance. Money is a two-edge sword. It will amplify your weakness and your strength.


Ha Ha. I know that you are trying to be all philosophical and stuff. But it didn't work. 

I am no where near obsessive about pigeon racing and/or winnning at it. Additionally I do win once in awhile. I am not a loser at anything.  I am a sometimes loser and a sometimes winner (aren't most of us?).

I know a guy who quit because he won too often. It got to him. No serious competition. He still has his birds and attends most of the meetings, but doesn't fly anymore because winning came too easy and too often for him.

Seriously guys and gals. Don't take this pigeon racing too seriously. Have fun with it. Give a new flyer youngsters off of your best, now and then. Send a barless to the big race, now and then (or an all white).

Have fun or wanting to win too much will cause you to much stress and "pizz" you off.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

That guy that quit cause he won to much can I get his birds, I need them, Igotta have em, help pleeeeese drool drool. lol
Dave


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I know a guy who quit because he won too often. It got to him. No serious competition. He still has his birds and attends most of the meetings, but doesn't fly anymore because winning came too easy and too often for him.


That's how felt after this season since I had met the goals I had set for myself winning average speed and a money race. So for about a week after the season I was kinda disgusted and felt down since I really love racing but there's no point if it's way too easy. But then we had an auction for the top birds in my clubs Great South Bay Classic race. And this one rich guy came in a out bid almost everybody on all the birds I was lucky to get the one I wanted. That auction started me on the track to want to beat him next year. But this is what got me the guy's been flying for 2 years now and he won 2 races but he's always been quiet and soft spoken nice guy. Then at the club meeting this week he was a completly different guy. Like now he feels like he spent money in the club now he kinda owns the place talking like he's a pro now. Saying we should get rid of all the guys in the club that don't fly more then so many races a year because all they are here for is their piece of the building if the club folded. That pissed me off because some of the guys he's looking to get out of the club are the guys who founded or were some of the first members when the club was founded way back in 1934. That are just too old to do it anymore. I got the bug again I can't wait till next season I wanna beat that guy so bad next season.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

We had a guy that didn't fly for 2 yrs the 3 rd yr he flew 2 races the next yr he told us how it was going to be how he was in charge bla bla bla we voted him out. good ridence
Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

LOL, conditionfreak! My post was not directed to you, but a general musings. If it sounded philosophical, that is probably a result of almost getting a minor in Philosophy. People who quit pigeon racing are those that don't usually win (they got discouraged). Obviously there are other reasons. Those that win often and quit probably just "retired." LOL! Obviously those people are looking for bigger challenge and bigger challenge is more fun and probably more difficult, but perhaps more satisfying.

With what is happening in the pigeon club I think it is politics that will kill this sport.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Yeah you don't need those ppl they just ruin the whole club. Instead of the club being a nice place to be they turn it into a place you don't want to be because you don't wanna deal with all the stupid stuff and drama they cause. We have a bunch of clubs that ppl can choose from on Long Island so if you can't get into one club theres 5 others you can get in. So my club has a rule where if 3 ppl vote no about letting a new guy in the guy is voted out. Since it's happend a bunch of times where the club almost dies from one guy coming in and a bunch of ppl leaving. So we rather keep the 3 ppl instead of letting in the one and loosing the 3. But this guy we didn't know since he was new he seamed nice at first but he changed like over night.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> I purchased a cock bird about a year ago, who is a grandson of "SUPER CRACK 699
> 
> So in the ped did it say 699 was mated to NL 1560140-90 If so you have a full bro to Sure Bet. Well maybe not a full bro but damn close.
> Dave


No, he was mated to NL 9010095 90.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Anytime you get more than one person together, you get differences of opinions and often, strife. Even in a marriage (yea, I'm talking about you sweetheart).

Same with my combine. So many different types of personalities. Type "A"'s. "B"'s and so forth.

There are those that try to bully to get what they want. Those that will just go along with anything. Those that are bi-polar and change like the wind. etc.

I have heard through the grapevine that the guy I referenced above, the one that found winning too often and thus lost interest. Is coming back. The reason being that another flyer from the past that he used to battle with, is allegedly coming back.

This should be interesting!

On a completely different subject, I have a decision to make concerning the club I fly with. It is a long story but I am bored, so here it is.

I belong to a club in an adjacent state. It takes me one hour and 15 minutes to drive to my club house. There are two other flyers that live within five miles of me, that ride along with me to this club. The other two flyers have got together with some old timers who used to fly in our area, and want to make a new club in our area, and NOT be part of any combine, but just fly against each other in this new club.

I do not want to leave my original club and combine. But it is a long way away and does take up a lot of travel time, and expense. So I have to decide whether or not I want to be part of this "new" club venture, or stay where I am with the old club and combine that I enjoy. This new club, would be taking two members from my current club (three if I go also), and is going to greatly hurt the numbers in my current club, which is small already (due to recent deaths and quittings)

I am leaning towards trying to be a member of both. I could find no rules against that on the AU website. But it would be difficult to coordinate shipping, knock-offs and such, on the same days with two clubs so far apart. Plus I would have to have more birds to participate in both.

Being in a new local club with five or so members (it would only be five at best), and not being in a combine, would not be inviting to me, competition wise. But would save a lot of time and expense. Especially wear and tear on my truck. But I like the most competition I can have, so I am sure I am not going to leave my current club/combine.

Do you think I can do both?

One of the things about this new club that concerns me is that all members but me, use manual clocks, with counter marks. I use a Unicon system with electronic recording. The new club would not have the means for me to use that system and I would have to get me a manual Benzing clock, or something similar. I hate that kind of clocking (yep, I'm spoiled). 

Another thing is that the members of this new club would all be approximately 15 to 20 years older than I (I'm 57), and that has some soon coming pitfalls, as you can imagine. 

I think I am going to try both, but my life is hectic enough (got grandkids living near me now).

Then throw in the mix that gas prices are around three bucks a gallon now, and everything seems to be going up and up (except home values). Plus my truck is in the shop today, getting new brakes and a new wiper motor, at $548 plus taxes, which would be more often than not, if I continue to stay with my current club.  I would like to use my economy car for my pigeon stuff, but having Pigeon Lung disease, I need to have the birds on the outside of the vehicle when transporting, or I would have to drive with a mask on. (can you imagine Homeland Security spotting me driving down the road wearing a gas mask?)!

Plus, my current combine wants to change the course direction AGAIN, because some members did very poorly this past season, which was a new course direction from the previous year. These members that did poorly have threatened to quit if the course is not changed, and we already lost three members at the end of this past season.

Oh, the politics and stress of it all....Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Yep. Anytime you get more than one person on a block. There goes the neighborhood.

Maybe I should just send birds to various one loft races around the country, instead of being in a club. It would save me a lot of time and stress. Maybe Flapdoodle will let me send him a twenty bird team. Ha Ha. I think some like Ace in the Hole, have it better than I. Test their birds without being in a club.

(hope my truck is ready today, as I have a combine meeting tonight. One hour and 20 minutes away. Just to discuss a course change.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> That guy that quit cause he won to much can I get his birds, I need them, Igotta have em, help pleeeeese drool drool. lol
> Dave


Ha Ha

This guy will not let anyone get any of his birds. He will not even sell any.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> One time I saw him semi choking a bird that he had a hard time catching in the basket, but he put it back, stating "I would wring your neck but since you cost me 15 grand, I'll let you live". (true story I witnessed myself).


This made me LOL! hahahahaha....

Sounds a lot like some of the old timers I know around here who have spent big money on birds but the difference is that I got birds from them!


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> Sure Bet is a grand son of Super Crack 699.
> Dave
> 
> 
> google NL 92 1360699


Super Crack came from zoontjens.zoontjens are the backbones of Super Crack 699


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I thought the crack birds were down from the Jannsen bros, but Icouldn't find info either way. Thanks
Dave


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> From what I can figure out H&O lofts is Arte Ouweerkerk and Kees Van Hemert


This is where supercrack 699 came from, I already looked it up for you guys, lol.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=82503

Wonder why this bird has not got a larger bid on it? It even has a bit of Sure Bet in it.


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