# "pigeon hoarder"



## doveone52

Here's the story. I have 6 ringnecks living inside. I have 12 pigeons living outside in a more than adequate space. I take the best care of my birds that I possibly can-good food, fresh water daily, baths, clean their quarters daily, etc., etc. Well my adult daughter thinks I've lost my mind and that there are way too many birds. She's afraid she's going to see me on "animal planet" as a pigeon hoarder, she says! I've tried to tell her that I have very few compared to many pigeon lovers.
Would you write how many you have so I can show this to her as proof?
Thanks in advance!


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## sky tx

Flyers who Race have 2 teams of about 20 birds in each--1 young birds and 1 old birds.
Plus the breeders -maybe another 8-10 pair.


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## shawn arnold

I have 3 Oreintal rollers, 9 baby rollers,16 YB rollers and 45 adult rollers. I plan on cutting back on adults to 20. But hoping to get 12 more rollers of another strain. Shawn


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## sreeshs

32 pigeon friends now. If this question came up last month, the number would have been 51, I sold some of my young birds. Though there is not much difference compared to the number of pigeon friends you have, I know there are fellow fanciers here who have hundreds of them in number  So just wait as more info flows


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## conditionfreak

I have 90 or so pigeons. I do have ten acres and four lofts, but still. I have a lot.

I am not a hoarder. I don't think.

I have 15 birds in my old bird loft. Ten pairs in my breeding loft. 40 in my young bird loft and 15 birds that just live here and do nothing but eat and poop.  None in the house.

I know many racing enthusiasts that have two hundred birds at given times.

I know one guy named Thomas (last name withheld), that had a barn filled with pigeons. He WAS a hoarder and the conditions were filthy. He made the news as a hoarder. It was determined that in this barn, he had approximately 1000 pigeons loose. He fed them stale bread he got at a discount. He lived on the same block I did back in the eighties.

Now here is the funny part. We lived in the inner city of Cleveland. Almost downtown. Even though he had a barn, his property lot size was only 50' by 150'.

Man, did it stink.

The city harrassed him and he eventually moved to a farm in Medina, Ohio. Don't know if he still has pigeons but I bet he does. He couldn't get enough. Tom was on 100% disability from the military. He was only in the service for boot camp and no longer. Tom had mental problems for sure. But how did the military select him and then give him a pension for the rest of his life because he couldn't handle boot camp? He wasn't "physically" injured there.

Bit I digress.

You are NOT a hoarder. Most pigeon keepers tend to end up with way more pigeons than they desire or initially wanted. They tend to be like potato chips. You can't just have one.


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## doveone52

This is great ammo! keep it coming, please. and thanks conditionfreak for the reassurance!


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## Charis

I don't understand why you feel you need to justify yourself?


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## c.hert

I have not had babies in almost three years now and only have 14 of my own and the rest were birds in need and now I have 30 females and 35 males and thats 65 pigeons and I have been trying to keep the number down but they keep coming and I don't feel that I am a hoarder and I take very good care of my birds but how in the world can you refuse a squeaker got by a cat or a one footed pigeon or two with broken wings or one with no tongue and two with a virus PMV that you nurse back to health..and assorted others that have their problems too---people just got so attached to these birds if they are bird lovers and want to do the best that they can for them. No Doveone52 you are not a hoarder and normal people just build bird lofts and take care of them like pets or racing or showing---they gather more-----Your birdies are lucky to have you,,,,c.hert


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## pdpbison

Tell her about those Websites where people sell their annoying daughters...big dough from the far east! And frees up another room in the house too!

A 'win-win'...


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## doveone52

Charis said:


> I don't understand why you feel you need to justify yourself?


Sorry, Charis. I guess i'm someone who needs external validation. You are right of course. I shouldn't have to justify myself but I sure am going to enjoy seeing her read how many birds other folks have!


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## doveone52

pdpbison said:


> Tell her about those Websites where people sell their annoying daughters...big dough from the far east! And frees up another room in the house too!
> 
> A 'win-win'...


LOVE it, pdpbison! She's actually in college living off campus on my dime! But the far east is sounding good...lol!


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## c.hert

I love it too----yea the real far east----c.hert


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## doveone52

c.hert said:


> I have not had babies in almost three years now and only have 14 of my own and the rest were birds in need and now I have 30 females and 35 males and thats 65 pigeons and I have been trying to keep the number down but they keep coming and I don't feel that I am a hoarder and I take very good care of my birds but how in the world can you refuse a squeaker got by a cat or a one footed pigeon or two with broken wings or one with no tongue and two with a virus PMV that you nurse back to health..and assorted others that have their problems too---people just got so attached to these birds if they are bird lovers and want to do the best that they can for them. No Doveone52 you are not a hoarder and normal people just build bird lofts and take care of them like pets or racing or showing---they gather more-----Your birdies are lucky to have you,,,,c.hert


You just have a great, big heart, c.hert!
Honestly, I adore my daughter. We just can't see eye to eye on the pigeons and she makes me feel kind of bad about it.


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## EgypSwiftLady

doveone52 said:


> You just have a great, big heart, c.hert!
> Honestly, I adore my daughter. We just can't see eye to eye on the pigeons and she makes me feel kind of bad about it.


 You shouldn't feel bad as long as you are taking good care of the birds and besides if you're not asking her to foot the feed bill it's really none of her business. 

By the way we have more than 18 pigeons & doves here at the sanctuary.


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## Charis

EgypSwiftLady said:


> *You shouldn't feel bad as long as you are taking good care of the birds and besides if you're not asking her to foot the feed bill it's really none of her business. *
> By the way we have more than 18 pigeons & doves here at the sanctuary.




I totally agree.


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## spirit wings

ok here it goes

30 homers

4 frillbacks

4 jacobins

5 fantails

6 figuritas

3 capuchines

8 homer squabs in the nest still

3 ring neck doves in the house. so that is 63 total birds.

hope that helps.


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## c.hert

My goodness Spirit wings ---your a hoarder---lol lol me too lol c,hert


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## spirit wings

c.hert said:


> My goodness Spirit wings ---your a hoarder---lol lol me too lol c,hert


I know, I have problems!!!... lol...


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## c.hert

WE ALL DO ...c.hert


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## Pigeonlove

1 capuchine
1 unreleasable ferral
2 offspring juveniles
1 offspring baby
1 white wing dove ferral
1 mourning dove ferral
1 inca dove ferral (tamest bird of the bunch!)
3 parakeets
1 cockatiel (her mate just recently passed away)
1 senegal parrot (loves me the most of the bunch!)
2 quaker parrots


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## doveone52

I am feeling better all the time!


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## spirit wings

doveone52 said:


> I am feeling better all the time!


glad of it.. you know pigeons,( doves too) are flock birds, and are happy that way, so the more the merrier if you have room for them. Horses are the same.. you should not keep just one they are herd animals and feel safer in numbers...or at least two together... same with sheep... some people will not sell you a lone sheep you have to take at least two...oh and goats...etc...ect..


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## pdpbison

Maybe someone could start a self help group called 'Pigeons Annonomous'...it could spread, Coast to Coast, till most every city and town has a chapter going.


"Hi...I'm Phil...and I am uh...errrr...uhhh...a Pigeon accumulator..."


(Everyone - ) "Hi Phil!!!"


At meetings, some tired strip mall where we rent a small flickering flourecent ceiling storefront, folding tables and creaky folding chairs got cheap from some Church sale, we have lots of fresh Coffee, and plenty of Ash Trays...some Books and Pamphlets scattered here and there on the folding table tops...


Anyway...being into the rescue-rehab side of things, however many are here is always up and down, as various new arrives come in, and, ones ready for release, have their pre-release time, then, get to fly off...and, the non-release-ables, and 'Floor Birds' get their Head-Kisses, Cuddles, Crop-checkings, and other annoying fussings for them to grunt or wing slap me about, or run away as best they can if they sense they are 'next'...( well, some ARE Cuddle-Bugs, too...)


Probably about 25 presently...all tolled ( whew! Nice to have it so easy compared to some times! ) five convelescents, maybe twelve non-release-ables, and seven or eight impending releases...


Sometimes I walk around, arms outstretched, like 'Lenny' ( you know, John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" ) , saying "I wanna pet the Pidgie!!", and you should see the looks I get...everyone freezes, all Eyes on me, everyone wondering "Oh hell, is he going to come after ME now? Or someone else???"


Lol...


Ohhhhhhhhhhh, golly...

You gotta have a good sense of humor if living with these little Harpies...for sure...


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## re lee

I no longer have the birds But when i did i averaged about 140 birds at a time. I have known people who kept as much as 600 birds SO as long as there is a reason then it ok. And as long as the birds recieve good care there ok. When a person races the birds shows the birds or raising any performing line of the birds They will keep more birds and raise a decent number each year. 100 plus is the average to raise. Now your number of birds is small compared to most. And You could bring up some lofts on the old computer To show your daughter .


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## Msfreebird

My daughters feel the same way  I told them -" I enjoy my birds, do you have a problem with that? I don't tell you what to do in your free time, so don't you tell me!" 
Here's mine-
Outside -
70 homers and tumblers, and 1 king in one loft
19 Fantails in the other loft
1 squirrel
Inside-
2 dogs,
3 cats,
3 unreleasable rescue birds,- mourning dove, blue jay and baltimore oriole (in my care under my bosses permit) 
5 pigeons waiting for the warm weather to go outside
1 Mollucan Cockatoo that swears like a truck driver when my daughters come to visit


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## doveone52

pdpbison, that is hysterical! I love the reference to "Lennie". great mental image!
relee, you're awesome!
Msfreebird, I'm so glad you can relate! I had two daughters but the oldest one has passed. If she were here she would be teasing me something awful but i think she'd actually enjoy them. She was a very funny person. I call her son the "pigeon whisperer" because he can do amazing things with those birds!


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## Larry_Cologne

doveone52,

Teen-aged students in college usually have all the answers. I know I did at that time, but I have since lost most of them.

Perhaps ask your daughter to expand, elaborate the topic. What are the requirements for a hoarder? What is the difference between a hoarder and a collector? Is she basing her opinion merely on the *number* of birds you have? Most people have one or two pets, if any. Is it because you have more than the usual number? Is it the number only? You have ten birds. I have ten fingernails (not bringing toenails into the discussion). So what?

There are hoarders of animals, of cardboard, of coins, of old clothes and shoes, of whatever.

Does your collecting of whatever it is interfere with your maintaining a "normal" or healthy life? Does it fall into the category of a compulsive/obsessive disorder?

I once (actually, several times) rescued a pigeon and lost sleep over several nights worrying about coming up with a diagnosis and proper treatment. Losing sleep for a night or two is not necessarily life-threatening if one doesn't have to drive a vehicle or fly a plane or work with certain machinery, or have to make critical decisions concerning others.

But I realized the practicality of having doctors and nurses and hospitals and their routines and protocols available when a person or some other animal is sick. The doctor, the nurse, works hard at their job for a certain number of hours, then goes home, leaving the problems alone for a while, to refresh themselves and bring freshness to the task the next time they are on the job. In the meanwhile, others take over.

Some of my "rescued" pigeons died. Cause unknown.

With no one to help you (when caring for a rescue) because of lack of funds, lack of suitable vets, lack of understanding and/or helpful neighbors, one can easily and quickly be overwhelmed. I think all of the rescuers/re-habbers in these forums are very aware of these issues. 

When you don't have assistance, feelings of guilt and inadequacy can quickly add to your burden when you feel the animal or person in need is getting less than what they require or deserve. 

To me, the opinions of others are interesting. I may not agree with them, but it can be useful to have access to a variety of conflicting and often contradictory opinions. Helps me to choose my path. They hold up a mirror to me, so I can see myself the way they see me, and so that I can see myself with my own eyes in ways I would not otherwise be able to see. I have had surgery on my sinuses for nasal polyps, and have had colonoscopies. Some doctors have seen parts of me I have never seen, and know more about me in some ways I will never master, and are such "experts" on me that whatever they say, I can only nod my head and assume they're right. Little green men inside my head? Well, I haven't noticed any, but if the docs say they've actually seen them, well ....

Teenagers are often predominantly concerned with being considered "normal" by their peers. (To the extent that if everyone else is stupid about something, you want to be stupid also). I used to wonder why this concern over normality in the eyes of ones peers. Why not be concerned about what your elders thought? Well, many of your elders are idiots too, and you may not be able to easily tell them apart because of different frames of reference, different outlooks on life. In the same context I wondered why one remembers one's classmates in the teen years so much better than classmates in college or fellow employees in one's early adult years. Then it occurred to me that I will spend many more years of my life with my contemporaries of my own age than I will even with my parents or my children. When I am thirty, forty, fifty, I will not be so interested in teen problems or senior citizen problems. 

So, your daughter may look at her friends, mostly students, none of whom probably have time to care for a number of pigeons in their dorms, think them all "normal," know that she will resemble you in some ways later in her life, doesn't seem to match your profile ("pigeon person") with that of any of her friends whom she wants to fit in with, and thus derive her concern for your current "affliction."

Of course, she may be very intelligent, reasonable, fair-minded and broad-minded, perceptive, and you are indeed a "crazy." And maybe we pigeon enthusiasts are really all nuts (along with poodle people, parrot people, _et cetera__, et cetera,_ _ad nauseam_.) In that case, or in any case whatsoever, we must simply enjoy life, and enjoy the company of all the people at this website, and feel justified in what we do, and ignore all the other categories of "nuts" out there. 

(I've heard there are even people who want to go to Mars. Can you believe that? Where would you fly your pigeons on Mars? Absurd!)

Larry


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## doveone52

Larry, I can certainly see that you are a thinking man but also with a kind heart. I feel I have a very manageable number of birds. I have fake eggs and use them liberally, believe me! With so much knowledge I've managed to glean, esp from this site, I feel that I'm doing a pretty good job.
You are so right about the college age when you are privileged to know everything! I get a little defensive every time she comes home and takes a bird head count to ensure I haven't added any new ones! i'm going to show her all these replies and say "Well, there!" But you could be right. Maybe it's we who are a little nuts!


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## c.hert

Thats a nice piece Larry Cologne and yes Doveone52 and think of all the work that goes with pigeons and expense and food and treats and carrying heavy things and worrying and the dust and all that it involves--a real time consumer---so We are Nuts...lol c.hert


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## mr squeaks

Time for your daughter to get on with HER life and quit worrying about yours, Doveone!

Sometimes I wonder if children think it's their "duty" to be control freaks over their parents??

When animals of any kind are kept in a loving healthy enviroment without overcrowding, why should there be a problem? 

WHY is your daughter so concerned? Do you have any health issues related to birds? Are the birds living in a dirty environment? No? THAT's what I thought...please tell her sternly, *if* she won't listen....to BUTT OUT...

Funny post, Phil! Loved your post too, Larry! 

*sigh* Mothers and Daughters...yes, I am familiar....

Love and Hugs
Shi 

Oh, yes, I forgot to add...I live in a ONE BEDROOM APARTMENT with FIVE non-releaseable PIGEONS and TWO CATS! Living with fur 'n feathers is AN ADVENTURE! Your daughter is more than welcome to come see my "set-up!" Of course, I AM on permanent vacation (a.k.a. retired), which gives me the time to care for all....


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## doveone52

Thanks, Mr. Squeaks. At the ancient age of 57, I suppose I do bear watching! Even though every weekend I'm in charge of a 20 bed Intensive Care Unit for 24 hrs.! But, Lord knows, you'd better keep an eye on me with those birds!


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## Larry_Cologne

*"bear watching"*

well, doveone52 ...



> At the ancient age of 57, I suppose I do bear watching!


 ...

where do you watch bears? Are they wild or in the zoo? I have a sister (the oldest one of seven sisters, 61 years old, not counting six brothers) living in Chantilly, Virginia, next to Dulles airport. Of all of them, I think she is the only one who "does bear watching."


LOL

Larry


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## doveone52

Oh, is it "bare' then? But no, bears are my worst nightmare. Chantilly is a lovely area.


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## Larry_Cologne

Bare watching : do you do that also? when and where? LOL. Then you would indeed bear watching, if you are watching bears in the bare.

Larry


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## prophecy

I have 10 ''house pigeons''.lol. No hoarder here! Many have WAAAAY more than I do.


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## Jay3

Hey guys, look what I found! You all can read it and decide for yourself whether or not you are a hoarder. And doveone52, you can read it to your daughter. Then she'll know what a real hoarder is.
__________________________________________________________

Hoarding

Animal hoarding, sometimes referred to as "collecting", continues to struggle with public misconceptions. Members of the community and even law enforcement often view hoarders to be "someone who meant well but the situation got out of hand," conjuring images of the sweet cat lady down the street.

While their intentions may indeed have been good, the reality of hoarding is far from sweet, and is often quite horrific. Hoarders often have hundreds of animals in their home, living in filth and without veterinary care. It is not uncommon to discover several hundred animals in various states of neglect at one location. It is also very common to find vast collections of other junk and garbage on the premises, as well as many layers of feces throughout the home.

In the majority of hoarding cases, the hoarder firmly believes not only that they have done nothing wrong, but that the animals cannot survive without their "care". In many instances, hoarders will even be reluctant to relinquish the decomposing corpses of animals that died. Dead animals are frequently found in the freezer or refrigerator, or even laying around the house, embedded in the carpeting, etc. At times, dead animals have been left in the home so long that they have become mummified.

Hoarders may feel that they "love" animals, but they can be blind to the fact that they are not caring for them responsibly even in the face of starvation and death. Hoarders are usually unable to bear the thought of euthanasia, but vast numbers of animals are "saved" only to languish in a squalid, crowded environment where they suffer from malnourishment, illness, inactivity, poor ventilation, and lack of human companionship. Dogs and cats have been found kept in cages, crates, hutches, and even kitchen cabinets, some even being allowed to breed. Hoarders often cannot afford to pay for all the spaying and neutering (not to mention the routine veterinary care) needed for so many animals, so their collection grows until the filth, stench, and noise attract the attention of neighbors or health, sanitation, or humane officials. In some situations, the homes of animal hoarders are so run-down and filthy that the local Department of Health actually orders their homes razed to the ground.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty/hoarding.php

Despite a correlation to the psychological condition of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), there is no clinical diagnosis at this point. More research is needed. Gary Patronek, director of the Center for Animals and Public Policy at Tufts University, states "We'd like to study it more," he says. "Is it a syndrome in and of itself? Probably not. But [one day] we might like it to be included as a warning sign [in psychological evaluation]."

"Perhaps the most prominent psychological feature of these individuals is that pets (and other possessions) become central to the hoarder's core identity," Patronek writes in Municipal Lawyer magazine. "The hoarder develops a strong need for control, and just the thought of losing an animal can produce an intense grief-like reaction. Preliminary HARC interviews also suggest that hoarders grew up in chaotic households, with inconsistent parenting, in which animals may have been the only stable feature."

Some studies indicate that a recurring theme in animal hoarders may be situations of neglect or loss in their childhood. To oversimplify, they attempt to fill their lives with the consistent love they feel they were (or are) lacking. Many hoarders believe they are on a mission to save animals - for this reason, we see hoarding more prevalent in animal rescuers than any other type of animal cruelty. Recidivism in animal hoarders is nearly 100%.

While the "typical" animal hoarder is very often elderly, and quite often female, recent statistics indicate that younger individuals and males are not immune. In some areas, the local social services and health departments are attempting to work with animal hoarders to help them.

Does this mean that all elderly pet-owners are hoarders? Not at all. According to the Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium, the following criteria are used to define animal hoarding:

1. More than the typical number of companion animals

2. Inability to provide even minimal standards of nutrition, sanitation, shelter, and veterinary care, with this neglect often resulting in starvation, illness, and death

3. Denial of the inability to provide this minimum care and the impact of that failure on the animals, the household, and human occupants of the dwelling 

* Please note: The term "collecting" (or "collector") is considered outdated and inaccurate, because collecting describes a benign hobby, not a pathological situation.
Related Links (Off-site links open in a new window)
Pet-Abuse.Com Hoarding Cases
Best Friends: When Helping Really is Hoarding
The Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium
PETA: Animal Hoarders: The Illness and the Crime
PETA: Animal Hoarders:Behavior, Consequences, and Appropriate Official Response

Read more: Pet-Abuse.Com - Hoarding http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty


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## Charis

Great find, Jay.


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## wcooper

we have around 40 pigeons. and hopefully 10 more will hatch within the week.


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## doveone52

Very informative article, Jay3! Now I know I'm not a hoarder and my daughter will, too.
Thanks, wcooper! You have some beauties!
And, Prophecy, 10 "house pigeons'! What a job that must be!


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## mr squeaks

MANY THANKS, Jay3!!!

That is the most comprehensive information on hoarding that I have ever seen.

In fact, I think what you posted should be a "sticky." What do you think, MODS?

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## mr squeaks

doveone52 said:


> Thanks, Mr. Squeaks. *At the ancient age of 57, I suppose I do bear watching!* Even though every weekend I'm in charge of a 20 bed Intensive Care Unit for 24 hrs.! But, Lord knows, you'd better keep an eye on me with those birds!



ROFLMAO...ANCIENT AGE of *57*???

YIKES! By that criteria, I should be "mummified," since I'll hit 72 in November!

However, in my case, I got stuck in a "time warp" and am, at least, 20 years behind myself! No one told me what "age" is, so I just did/do my thing.

Yeah, I think you can be ON YOUR OWN! 

I'm sure your daughter means well, but, well, there IS a time to "cut the cord!" 

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## Birdmom4ever

We have 95 pigeons, 16 ringneck doves (13 outdoors, 3 indoors), plus various small cage birds in the house. We live in the suburbs on an average sized lot. I clean my loft, aviaries and cages daily and there is very little odor. My birds are healthy and in good condition and I'm always happy to show them off to visitors.


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## MaryOfExeter

My grand total of birds is probably around 150 (that includes pigeons, doves, chickens, quail, ducks, and guineas), and a dog


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## Guest

doh.....


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## doveone52

Y'all are my kind of people! Thanks so much!
Mr. Squeaks, I would have put you at least 20 yrs younger!


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## c.hert

He is a few years older than me and that makes him a "old man" thats for sure and the way he thinks if you give him that 20 years he still an "old man" but not me I am a young chicken...lol,,,c.hert


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## Msfreebird

c.hert said:


> He is a few years older than me and that makes him a "old man" thats for sure and the way he thinks if you give him that 20 years he still an "old man" but not me I am a young chicken...lol,,,c.hert


Mr. Squeaks is a SHE


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## c.hert

Well then Msfreebird Mr. Squeakes is a old lady like me lol--want to say old bat for me but for Madam Squeakes old lady will do ... Apologize for the wrong sex and its that stupid word "matriarch" and have a nice day everyone lol lol c.hert


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## Seijun

My parents have a flock of about 50 homers in one loft. They are let out to free range during the day so the birds pretty much control their own population (well, the hawks do anyway).


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## dublin/richie

thats not many i have about 30 or so rollers tiblers tumblers all in together 9 foot high 4 foot x 6 foot width


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## birds+me=happy

A pigeon breeder down the street from me has 200 or so.


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## valeri

We have two rescued racing pigeons in a one-bedroom apartment and our friends think we're crazy. Oh hell, WE think we're crazy. 

We're moving because of the pigeons, though.

That IS crazy. 

And everyone reminds us that we're crazy and that we should have just opened the windows to "set them free."

Not a lot of support for pigeon rescue at this end.


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## Jay3

Valeri, those two pigeons are just so lucky to have you two caring people.


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## feathers111

Yes, good find, Jay3. 
In all fairness, I think it's very thoughtful of your daughter to voice her concern about how many pigeons you have, Doveone52--it shows concern and compassion for the pigeons. With hoarding, it's not so much about the quantity of life but the _quality_ of life; in other words, is the care-giver in a position to provide proper care for all their companion animals? And hoarders, as Jay's post below indicates, truly believe that they are doing "good" and rescuing animals, but things get out of control. Pet hoarding is a form of neglect, which is a form of animal abuse, and should be taken seriously, and so I hope, Doveone52, you'll let your daughter know that you appreciate her concern, because it's most likely motivated by concern for you and for the pigeons in your care.



Jay3 said:


> Hey guys, look what I found! You all can read it and decide for yourself whether or not you are a hoarder. And doveone52, you can read it to your daughter. Then she'll know what a real hoarder is.
> __________________________________________________________
> 
> Hoarding
> 
> Animal hoarding, sometimes referred to as "collecting", continues to struggle with public misconceptions. Members of the community and even law enforcement often view hoarders to be "someone who meant well but the situation got out of hand," conjuring images of the sweet cat lady down the street.
> 
> While their intentions may indeed have been good, the reality of hoarding is far from sweet, and is often quite horrific. Hoarders often have hundreds of animals in their home, living in filth and without veterinary care. It is not uncommon to discover several hundred animals in various states of neglect at one location. It is also very common to find vast collections of other junk and garbage on the premises, as well as many layers of feces throughout the home.
> 
> In the majority of hoarding cases, the hoarder firmly believes not only that they have done nothing wrong, but that the animals cannot survive without their "care". In many instances, hoarders will even be reluctant to relinquish the decomposing corpses of animals that died. Dead animals are frequently found in the freezer or refrigerator, or even laying around the house, embedded in the carpeting, etc. At times, dead animals have been left in the home so long that they have become mummified.
> 
> Hoarders may feel that they "love" animals, but they can be blind to the fact that they are not caring for them responsibly even in the face of starvation and death. Hoarders are usually unable to bear the thought of euthanasia, but vast numbers of animals are "saved" only to languish in a squalid, crowded environment where they suffer from malnourishment, illness, inactivity, poor ventilation, and lack of human companionship. Dogs and cats have been found kept in cages, crates, hutches, and even kitchen cabinets, some even being allowed to breed. Hoarders often cannot afford to pay for all the spaying and neutering (not to mention the routine veterinary care) needed for so many animals, so their collection grows until the filth, stench, and noise attract the attention of neighbors or health, sanitation, or humane officials. In some situations, the homes of animal hoarders are so run-down and filthy that the local Department of Health actually orders their homes razed to the ground.
> 
> http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty/hoarding.php
> 
> Despite a correlation to the psychological condition of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), there is no clinical diagnosis at this point. More research is needed. Gary Patronek, director of the Center for Animals and Public Policy at Tufts University, states "We'd like to study it more," he says. "Is it a syndrome in and of itself? Probably not. But [one day] we might like it to be included as a warning sign [in psychological evaluation]."
> 
> "Perhaps the most prominent psychological feature of these individuals is that pets (and other possessions) become central to the hoarder's core identity," Patronek writes in Municipal Lawyer magazine. "The hoarder develops a strong need for control, and just the thought of losing an animal can produce an intense grief-like reaction. Preliminary HARC interviews also suggest that hoarders grew up in chaotic households, with inconsistent parenting, in which animals may have been the only stable feature."
> 
> Some studies indicate that a recurring theme in animal hoarders may be situations of neglect or loss in their childhood. To oversimplify, they attempt to fill their lives with the consistent love they feel they were (or are) lacking. Many hoarders believe they are on a mission to save animals - for this reason, we see hoarding more prevalent in animal rescuers than any other type of animal cruelty. Recidivism in animal hoarders is nearly 100%.
> 
> While the "typical" animal hoarder is very often elderly, and quite often female, recent statistics indicate that younger individuals and males are not immune. In some areas, the local social services and health departments are attempting to work with animal hoarders to help them.
> 
> Does this mean that all elderly pet-owners are hoarders? Not at all. According to the Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium, the following criteria are used to define animal hoarding:
> 
> 1. More than the typical number of companion animals
> 
> 2. Inability to provide even minimal standards of nutrition, sanitation, shelter, and veterinary care, with this neglect often resulting in starvation, illness, and death
> 
> 3. Denial of the inability to provide this minimum care and the impact of that failure on the animals, the household, and human occupants of the dwelling
> 
> * Please note: The term "collecting" (or "collector") is considered outdated and inaccurate, because collecting describes a benign hobby, not a pathological situation.
> Related Links (Off-site links open in a new window)
> Pet-Abuse.Com Hoarding Cases
> Best Friends: When Helping Really is Hoarding
> The Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium
> PETA: Animal Hoarders: The Illness and the Crime
> PETA: Animal Hoarders:Behavior, Consequences, and Appropriate Official Response
> 
> Read more: Pet-Abuse.Com - Hoarding http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty


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## doveone52

I just have to say that the people of Pigeon Talk are among the very best! I asked my daughter to read all the posts and she was mighty impressed with the numbers of pigeons you all have and especially that people all over the country and the world are pigeon lovers like her Mom! Feathers111, she was grateful that you understood her concern. We had a good time reading all the posts, laughed alot. I think she understands a little better now. Thanks so much everyone!


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## Jay3

That's wonderful news. Her understanding has increased, and the two of you had a good time. After reading how many birds many others on here have, you don't look so bad after all. I think she was just being concerned in a caring way, and she was willing to listen to what others had to say, so she deserves credit. Everything worked out. Maybe you should print this thread, just in case you ever need to remind her down the road. Have a great day.


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## Msfreebird

Glad we were able to help!! - and everything Jay3 said too


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## wovenwoman

Don't worry about what others think, enjoy your birds


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## Cyreen

pdpbison said:


> Maybe someone could start a self help group called 'Pigeons Annonomous'...it could spread, Coast to Coast, till most every city and town has a chapter going.
> 
> 
> "Hi...I'm Phil...and I am uh...errrr...uhhh...a Pigeon accumulator..."
> 
> 
> (Everyone - ) "Hi Phil!!!"
> 
> 
> At meetings, some tired strip mall where we rent a small flickering flourecent ceiling storefront, folding tables and creaky folding chairs got cheap from some Church sale, we have lots of fresh Coffee, and plenty of Ash Trays...some Books and Pamphlets scattered here and there on the folding table tops...
> 
> 
> Sometimes I walk around, arms outstretched, like 'Lenny' ( you know, John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" ) , saying "I wanna pet the Pidgie!!", and you should see the looks I get...everyone freezes, all Eyes on me, everyone wondering "Oh hell, is he going to come after ME now? Or someone else???"












Awesome


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## mr squeaks

Veeery clever, Phil!!

And maybe not so off the wall either...

Actually, could just be "People Addicted to Pigeons" (P.A.D.) and not even "accumulators!" 

I agree with Cyreen...AWESOME!

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## gerbilgirl

I have two now, a woodie who I handreared last year and a baby I got last night who I don't know the species of yet (see my post in Non-Native species). Everyone thinks I'm mad for having a pigeon in the first place!


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## Iceland

I have 12 ringnecks, 40 pigeons, 2 finch, 2 cats and 1 dog =o)


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## Cyreen

gerbilgirl said:


> Everyone thinks I'm mad for having a pigeon in the first place!


Ohhh... I know that song! 

I think the most fun was when an older friend came over to see the new "talking" bird (the upstairs baby Caique). She walked into my livingroom, took a good look at poor Ollie and said, "but, that's a Pigeon! It can't talk, can it?" My reply? "Of course she can, you just have to listen."


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## chezd3

I have three pet pigeons (2 kings i personally found) and 1 white homer I was fostering and adopted. I also have currently three MickaCoo Pigeon and Dove rescue fosters 1 dove, 1 King Pigeon and 1 racing pigeon. The number I have changes becasue I foster rescues. I had just placed two doves yesterday in a forever home.


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## chinbunny

A hoarder is someone that does not take care of their animals. People need to learn the difference between someone that has many animals and takes good care of, vrs someone that does not. just wait till someone calls you a 'bird mill.'


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## garacari

I take care great of all my animals. To date, I have:

2 Pekingese Dogs (14 and 15 years old)
2 Green Aracaris (Toucans)
1 Purple Honeycreeper
2 Fantail Pigeons
1 half roller/half feral pigeon
17 homing pigeons

and 1 rehab squeaker


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## pigeoncrap

you are only a hoarder if you have more pigeons than you can take care off. At some point, if you don't start getting rid of the excess, then you will have trouble (like that story about that Thomas guy). You are fine.


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## jeff houghton

I keep 50 homers at any one time but plan on more when i extend next year.If you have the room and time to care for them why not.You could be spending your money on far worse things.Dont feel guilty .the more the better enjoy them.


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## Jeannine

Ringneck Doves: 2 White, 1 Peach, 1 Orange Pearled, 4 Blond, 4 Ivory + 1 five day old hatchling
Pigeons: 1 White Homer, 1 Yellow Roller


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## i_love_Calina

I only have one pigeon -- a grey/black stripes rock pigeon I found injured on the street. 

But even before I found her I made it a goal of mine to create a LARGE outdoor aviary where pigeons and other birds can fly into to escape predators or the hot/cold, or to raise their families. 

I also want two-three pet dairy cows for fresh milk btw. XD 

But in highschool people always joked I would become an old cat lady lol. Maybe they were close


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## Libis

I have one ringneck dove, and two diamond doves. (Everybody has wild-type coloration.) I would love to have more birds, but know that with college and two jobs this is really all I can do for now.

Some day I would like to perhaps get the ringneck dove a mate, or possibly even have a big aviary of doves.

You're not a hoarder if you can care for what you've got.


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## doveone52

Bless your heart, Libis. College life can be so stressful esp with TWO jobs! my birds give me a kind of serenity just being with them. Hope they give you the same!


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## Doves1111

This is what I have outside now...the total for the Ringneck and Diamond Doves is always changing...
44 Ringneck Doves
35 Diamond Doves
6 Zebra Finches
1 Bob White Quail
3 Horses

Inside I have...
2 Cockatiels (one is 28 years old)
1 English Budgie
1 Yellow Collar Macaw
1 Yorkshire Terrier

Dawn


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## tipllers rule

i have 20 german owkls and frills and archangels and fantails and parlor rollers


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## Pigeon lower

tipllers rule said:


> i have 20 german owkls and frills and archangels and fantails and parlor rollers


20 of each or alltogether?


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## jeff houghton

have as many ANIMALS as you can afford to keep and look after.Its only a problem in my eyes when you no longer can afford to give the animals in your care the care and respect they need .


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## doveone52

jeff houghton said:


> have as many ANIMALS as you can afford to keep and look after.Its only a problem in my eyes when you no longer can afford to give the animals in your care the care and respect they need .


I think this is the perfect definition for hoarding.


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## Libis

doveone52 said:


> Bless your heart, Libis. College life can be so stressful esp with TWO jobs! my birds give me a kind of serenity just being with them. Hope they give you the same!


You know, it really is amazing what animals can do for you.  You're right about pets bringing a person serenity. I have found that I am really a better person all around when I have animals to care for.


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