# What colo is this bird?



## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Sometimes he looks gold, others he looks copper, depending o the light. Camera shows his neck and wing feathers as bronze. The neck feathers are almost black. The back of the neck and wing markings are black. Is he a black wing or a blue t? This is out of my sex linked pair. The dad is the smokey gold, pale or dilute(don't remember which color he is), bred to an intense copper hen. it coos and struts in circles so i am pretty sure its a boy. is this bird an intense? i don't think its a dilute. Color variety id would be great appreciated too.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)




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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

He has also molted into his adult feathers.


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## Albannai (Jan 21, 2001)

This bird is archangel the color is (Archangel-bronze - Gimpel) and also called (black Red - Gimple)...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's a blue t-pattern  Pretty bird!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Also, it doesn't look dilute to me. But the bronze doesn't look normal. So I'm guessing pale is turning the bronze to a lighter color. Pale on blue birds doesn't really show up that much sometimes. But on bronze and recessive red, you can definitely tell.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

T pattern? I was kinda thinking a smokey check to kinda blur it out a bit


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Could either be a heavy check, or a light t-pattern. I do agree with smokey but it is definitely dirty as well to keep the beak and nails dark.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah, i thought that the first time but then forgot about the beak.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Hey Chinbunny, I don't know if you knew this already, but I learned that the more bronze that shows in the flights, the better with Archangels. A whole lot of bronze in the flights means the bronze should cover the body well. I thought it was neat


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

chinbunny said:


> Sometimes he looks gold, others he looks copper, depending o the light. Camera shows his neck and wing feathers as bronze. The neck feathers are almost black. The back of the neck and wing markings are black. Is he a black wing or a blue t?


Just to clarify, there is no difference between blackwing and T-pattern. All blackwing archangels are T-pattern.

Archangels also have to be dirty and smoky to give of good quality black, and I think this bird is both.



chinbunny said:


> This is out of my sex linked pair. The dad is the smoky gold, pale or dilute(don't remember which color he is), bred to an intense copper hen. it coos and struts in circles so i am pretty sure its a boy. is this bird an intense? i don't think its a dilute. Color variety id would be great appreciated too.


This bird is bronze and probably pale, but does not show effects of the recessive bronze extension gene necessary to push the bronze into he head of the bird. There is no color variety identification since this is not a standard Archangel (poor quality type as well as color and sheen), and would not do well at shows.

A note on the sex linked nature of the pair, if (as you suspect) this bird is a male, then it cannot be pale, since the hen could not contribute a pale gene to a son. I would assume this bird is a pale hen. 

In future it is very important that you look at the youngsters when they hatch and note the length and color of their down, as well as the skin and beak color.

Semi-short down means pale, and short down means dilute. (Extreme dilutes are born almost without down at all).

Darker down usually means better color and sheen. (Though I am still testing this piece of folklore). 

The darkest dirty birds show very dark heads and beaks, while homozygous smoky birds cause a kind of mask because of the lightening effect of smoky on the skin and beak (but not the eyes and head) of the squab.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> Just to clarify, there is no difference between blackwing and T-pattern. All blackwing archangels are T-pattern.
> 
> Archangels also have to be dirty and smoky to give of good quality black, and I think this bird is both.
> 
> ...


I tried looking at the down for length. It all looks the same to me. This bird struts and coos and walks in circles with its head down. It makes the waa, waa sound in between coos, so that's why I assumed it was a male. Its also possible I could have a very dominant female. its really got me confused right now since its from the sex linked pair. 

Thats what i thought about the smokey. it didn't have a mask when it was baby. It was dark black. Dad had a mask when he was ababy. Ill see if i can dig up a picture of him from here. 

Im not too worried about showing. the shows are too far away, and the only show I go is one thats once a year at a county fair. Right now I am looking at breeding birds, and color id. im hoping to breed this bird to the one bird i have left out of my toy stencil archangel program, since I lost the rest of them last summer. 

so this is bronze, not copper or gold? Cause if you saw this bird IRL it fools you.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Hey Chinbunny, I don't know if you knew this already, but I learned that the more bronze that shows in the flights, the better with Archangels. A whole lot of bronze in the flights means the bronze should cover the body well. I thought it was neat


no ididn't know that. thanks for info. 

oh you should see how that blue indigo I have turned out. Its gorgeous. ill have share pictures. i got another pair of babies colored just like it, only the body color is going to go gold.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Here is the thread that shows pics of the dad. I ended up not mating him to that hen, but to my dark copper hen instead. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/w...-archangel-hen-52096.html?highlight=archangel


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

chinbunny said:


> oh you should see how that blue indigo I have turned out. Its gorgeous. ill have share pictures. i got another pair of babies colored just like it, only the body color is going to go gold.


We're all waiting in anticipation for the indigo pictures ! ;-)


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

So you think the bird in question is a pale hen then? im really confused because it does behave like a male. But, I did have an older male in with it some time ago, and he did not like this bird. but he got along well with the others in the flock. 

Here I thought the babies out of the sex linked pairs would be easier to identify. lol. 

Mary id one of my blue wings as copper indigo last time I shared pictures, before its first molt. I love its color. Ill get some pictures of it either tonight or this weekend.

Im not sure if the gold babies are indigo or not. They do look like her. Ill post pictures of them later.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Heres the barless blue as a baby. The check in this thread is the bird on the left. In that picture it looks dark copper.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/inheritance-of-gimple-54186-2.html?highlight=archangel


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

im not sure what color the the third blue baby was(the one with the greenish head, behind the indigo), I have since sold that bird.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

chinbunny said:


> so this is bronze, not copper or gold? Cause if you saw this bird IRL it fools you.


The copper and gold colors in AA or bronzes


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

"Copper" and "gold" are just the names for bronze. Copper, I believe, is normal bronze while gold is pale bronze.

Which can be confusing because pale recessive red is also called gold.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

So an archangel cannot be spread? I've seen some with black tails, so those are just dirty/smokey t-patterns?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> So an archangel cannot be spread? I've seen some with black tails, so those are just dirty/smokey t-patterns?


Becky, yes most definitely copper blackwing arhcangels are NOT spread, even though they have tails so dark as to look pure black. On some poor archangels you can sometimes make out the tail bar in really strong light, but mostly it is impossible. I like to call this mimic black. 

Spread causes havoc with the requirement that the head, neck, breast, belly and legs have to be copper (or gold). This is difficult to achieve from scratch according to most people I have communicated with, even without the spread interfering.

Archangels have a dirty modifier that makes them so dark, even their under feathers are dark (or pure black). The copper feathers at the neck are actually only copper at the tip and black at the base (similar to the black base of very light ice birds - which also require dirty for good expression). Spread birds have much more black and much smaller copper areas in F1 crosses.

My personal experience agrees:
I have bred 4 homer / archangel crosses so far this year, from a very iridescent copper black-wing hen (solid black tail) and so far not a single spread. That is statistically significant enough for me to be more than 90% sure (by binomial test) that she is not spread. I currently have her mated to an almond roller (just to see what color they will be). When they turn out not to be spread either. There is no denying that my hypothesis is true. Black-wing archangels are not spread, and I will be 95% sure of my case ;-)


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

So would he be a pale copper then? This bird was flirting with the indigo tonight. Im pretty sure its a male. It was also strutting against the male in the next cage. Ill have to catch some video of him doing that, when it gets light enough.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

A male can only be pale if his mother was pale AND his father carried pale. Are we still talking about the bird in the picture? If hist mother was copper (intense - no pale) then there is no way this bird can be pale AND male.

Do you breed your birds in separate breeding cages of was he hatched in a communal setup? Pigeons aren't always as faithful as people think...


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

yep each pair has its own cage. I keep them separated year round.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

The bird on the left, facing the camera is his mother.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Here is the same bird now that i got photos of it in decent light. 

This is with the flash.

These are without. Like I said before the feathers show up different in different light, which is why im confused about the color.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

He gold on my camera in the this picture. sometimes my computer makes them look a shade darker then what they are. The others looked copper.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well now he doesn't look pale. This is confusing, LOL


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well now he doesn't look pale. This is confusing, LOL


I know! and its madly in love with the Andalusian(the one we thought was an indigo)! like I said his color changes in the light. If i shine a flashlight on him, he/she looks gold. But then again sometimes it looks bronze or copper.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

one of vivagirls pigeons. Mine looks almost like this, just not as black. http://colorpigeons.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=40


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I don't think we will be of much more help here, unless we can see the birds with our own eyes. The camera seems to lie!

What we can DEFINITELY say, is that if the bird is a male, he is NOT pale! If it's female it may be pale, but only your eyes will tell you the difference. Maybe ask an archangel breeder in your area what he thinks?

As to the 'andalusian'. By definition, you cannot breed Andalusian archangels, since Andalusian means Spread + Indigo over wild-type. If the bird has archangel bronze, spread and indigo, it cannot be termed Andalusian. This is why we should all be careful when posting here (I know I sometimes do the same thing).


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

There are no other archangel breeders in my area.

thats whats got me confused. In the other thread they are saying the birds are indigo, then andalusion. 


The standard says there are black spreads too. 

The one cockbrid I have is supposed to be an andalusion.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

archanhel standard

One of the indigo modifiers’ effects is to lighten the light and tail feather tips. One dose of this factor also gives the pattern a red colour and so it’s easy to mistake for ash-red. Two doses generally turn the wings and tail nearly white. In other pigeon breeds (where archangel bronze is net present) two does of indigo produce a coloured head on a nearly white bird. In combination with Archangel bronze however, the body will maintain to colour. Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird". In this case, the complementary iridescence is blue rather than green Blue barless or barred blue wings with one dose of indigo are also very pretty. Another popular colour combination in Archangels is two doses of indigo plus archangel bronze in the windshield (which sometimes occurs on blue wings). This makes the bronze appear to float on top of bath the pattern and background of the wing. In American Archangels, indigo combined with toy-stencil gives a bronze outline to the white pattern.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

As far the camera goes, its not the camera at all. Its the bird and the lighting its in. like I said above, one minute he looks pale, the next dark. my camera is good, and the colors stay pretty much the same on it. the colors it picked up from the other pictures were because of the light the bird was in. with the blues in the other thread, they are the same color IRL.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I don't think we will be of much more help here, unless we can see the birds with our own eyes. The camera seems to lie!
> 
> What we can DEFINITELY say, is that if the bird is a male, he is NOT pale! If it's female it may be pale, but only your eyes will tell you the difference. Maybe ask an archangel breeder in your area what he thinks?
> 
> As to the 'andalusian'. By definition, you cannot breed Andalusian archangels, since Andalusian means Spread + Indigo over wild-type. If the bird has archangel bronze, spread and indigo, it cannot be termed Andalusian. This is why we should all be careful when posting here (I know I sometimes do the same thing).


Hey Rudolph, Just for interest sake what would it be called, Is it an andalusian winged arch angel? Is andalusian not part of the archangel standard?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It looks andalusian to me. What else would it be? So it is impossible to get good bronze color on spread birds?

I don't see why it couldn't be called an andalusian archangel (or andalusian gimple). It is andalusian just with the addition of bronze. If it were white instead of bronze, it would be an andalusian saddle. So I don't see the difference.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Hey Rudolph, Just for interest sake what would it be called, Is it an andalusian winged arch angel? Is andalusian not part of the archangel standard?


Andalusian is in the archangel standard. As I said before it says its a modifier of indigo. Also says there are black spreads too. 

& yes id like to know what color blue these are if they aren't blue Andalusian or indigos.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

chinbunny said:


> Andalusian is in the archangel standard. As I said before it says its a modifier of indigo. Also says there are black spreads too.
> 
> & yes id like to know what color blue these are if they aren't blue Andalusian or indigos.


Yes technically andalusian is not a modifier, its the name of the colour, Spread modifys Indigo to cause andalusian, But thats being picky


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> It looks andalusian to me. What else would it be? So it is impossible to get good bronze color on spread birds?
> 
> I don't see why it couldn't be called an andalusian archangel (or andalusian gimple). It is andalusian just with the addition of bronze. If it were white instead of bronze, it would be an andalusian saddle. So I don't see the difference.


Agreed - I have not been able to find any material that states andalusian must be on wild type. The typical andalusian phenotype is on a wild type bird But I would still say the arch angel is andalusian, Andalusian Winged maybe.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm wondering what to call spread indigo on ash-red and brown?  I just call them ash-red andalusian and brown andalusian for lack of better terms. Indigo lavender or lavender indigo would work for the ash-red one but brown....well spread brown doesn't have a fancy name other than that, haha.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm wondering what to call spread indigo on ash-red and brown?  I just call them ash-red andalusian and brown andalusian for lack of better terms. Indigo lavender or lavender indigo would work for the ash-red one but brown....well spread brown doesn't have a fancy name other than that, haha.


Yeah, I have not seen either myself, I have heards Brown Indigo Spreads referred to as " kinda Yucky " Haha " I Imagine Lavendar Indigos would just be richer red than most????


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yes technically andalusian is not a modifier, its the name of the colour, Spread modifys Indigo to cause andalusian, But thats being picky


It's not being picky, it is being accurate about using genetics language on these threads.

Andalusian is a specific phenotype seen when spread and indigo are added to wild type, any other modifiers or additions would need another name (and that is when things become confusing - lets try not to add names, rather use the ones we have in combination). Otherwise you could call a brown spread indigo a brown andalusian, but such a bird does not even look remotely like andalusian chickens (where the name originally comes from, since the colours are similar).


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Agreed - I have not been able to find any material that states andalusian must be on wild type. The typical andalusian phenotype is on a wild type bird But I would still say the arch angel is andalusian, Andalusian Winged maybe.


The arhcangel standard differs from country to country, and if the standandard does allow for indigo spread gimpel bronse birds, they will also specify a name for such birds (such as andalusian wing or something). Being in the genetics thread, we should stick to genetics and not pretty fancier names that differ from breed to breed.

Quoting from a standard (found here):


> Indigo look good on black wing Archangels and true blacks, where it produces "andalusian wings" or "andalusian firebird". In this case, the complementary iridescence is blue rather than green Blue barless or barred blue wings with one dose of indigo are also very pretty. Another popular colour combination in Archangels is two doses of indigo plus archangel bronze in the windshield (which sometimes occurs on blue wings). This makes the bronze appear to float on top of bath the pattern and background of the wing. In American Archangels, indigo combined with toy-stencil gives a bronze outline to the white pattern.




This gives us show names for the phenotypes caused by specific genotypes.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm wondering what to call spread indigo on ash-red and brown?  I just call them ash-red andalusian and brown andalusian for lack of better terms. Indigo lavender or lavender indigo would work for the ash-red one but brown....well spread brown doesn't have a fancy name other than that, haha.


That is exactly what you should call it until you have a specific show standard to look to for a name. It is just an spread indigo ash-red and a spread indigo brown. Both of these are nowhere to be found in any show standard that I can find - probably because they aren't pretty (in the case of spread indigo brown - kinda yucky looking according to Frank Mosca I believe) or not significantly different from other phenotypes (as is the case for ash-red spread indigo - which probably looks like a darker than usual normal spread ash with a bluer head - some homer people might call these Strawberry too, how confusing would THAT be)


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yeah, I have not seen either myself, I have heards Brown Indigo Spreads referred to as " kinda Yucky " Haha " I Imagine Lavendar Indigos would just be richer red than most????


Actually (het) indigo ash-red is bluer than normal, not redder - strangely enough, but only experts will be able to tell the difference by just looking at the bird.

****. indigo ash-red? I have no idea, but I assume a darker head as well, similar to ****. indigo blue, but redder?


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> That is exactly what you should call it until you have a specific show standard to look to for a name. It is just an spread indigo ash-red and a spread indigo brown. Both of these are nowhere to be found in any show standard that I can find - probably because they aren't pretty (in the case of spread indigo brown - kinda yucky looking according to Frank Mosca I believe) or not significantly different from other phenotypes (as is the case for ash-red spread indigo - which probably looks like a darker than usual normal spread ash with a bluer head - some homer people might call these Strawberry too, how confusing would THAT be)


Ok so are my blues indigos, or andalusions? Im still new to breeding these, and I don't know all these colors yet. The one cock I have is andalusion. he doesn't look anything like his daughters. They are a shade darker then he is.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> It looks andalusian to me. What else would it be? So it is impossible to get good bronze color on spread birds?


Last comment on all the posts I missed. PROMISE!

Here is the description of spread gimpel bronze (with comments) from the same standard of the previous post.



> Spread blues are called "true-blacks", or black firebird.


Not black wing, not any other name, but 'true-blacks'. I have a spread archangel barb F1 and she really is black, with really copper sheen on the necks that no camera will ever be able to capture.



> Historically, excellent quality true-blacks was kept as stock birds by the master breeders to produce better black wings for exhibition. This was a well-kept secret, but unfortunately the term black wing has remained while the breeding technique is neatly forgotten.


Excellent quality blacks were used, because they have all those modifiers that make the black blacker. Which would also make the black wings of black-wing archangels blacker. (By the way, this is the same reason andalusians are bred to T-patterns instead of black, since spread indigo looks awful when those darkening modifiers are present - lost of yucky bronzing on the wind shield instead of the clear dark blue that is the standard for most breeds)



> It was once thought impossible to produce good Archangel bronze on black. _*Careful selection*_ has proven this notion false however.


Emphasis on careful selection! It is very easy to produce a black archangel with no bronze/copper. It is hard to produce the good ones.



> True black Archangels are beautiful, and deserve to be shown.


 Deserve to be shown, but aren't? Probably because no-one has any good ones, since they're so difficult to breed!

I apologize for the tirade of posts, but I decided to stick to my guns to make the point. We keep on having the same discussion about 'black' or 'spread' archangels, when no such thing exists (or maybe rarely exists) outside of the standard.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

chinbunny said:


> Ok so are my blues indigos, or andalusions? Im still new to breeding these, and I don't know all these colors yet. The one cock I have is andalusion. he doesn't look anything like his daughters. They are a shade darker then he is.


Your blues cannot be andalusians, because they are not the color of andalusians.

I agree with Becky that they probably are indigo. This means they have the indigo gene. They are barred birds right? I have really lost track of the right picture... (Maybe you could start another thread with just the picture of the blue indigo on its own?)

A blue bar indigo gimpel bronze would probably be called a blue wing bronze bar archangel according to the standard. But I am not an expert on the archangel standard.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> Your blues cannot be andalusians, because they are not the color of andalusians.
> 
> I agree with Becky that they probably are indigo. This means they have the indigo gene. They are barred birds right? I have really lost track of the right picture... (Maybe you could start another thread with just the picture of the blue indigo on its own?)
> 
> A blue bar indigo gimpel bronze would probably be called a blue wing bronze bar archangel according to the standard. But I am not an expert on the archangel standard.


Thank you!  So what color should the feathers look like if they were a true Andalusian? Standard doesn't help out much with the description on that. 

I already have a thread going on the blues. I have three birds of that color. Two are golds and all are bar-less. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/blue-indigo-amp-blue-archangels-57439.html 

So if I got some pure blacks from colorpigeons.com, to breed them to, id get andalusions. he has them, i am not sure if he has any for sale right now. it'll be awhile before I buy birds from him anyhow. he does have a pictur eof pure blacks on there.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Since you are new to genetics, I'd recommend you stay away from pure blacks and from 'andalusians'. They are very difficult to breed (if it is possible at all - I don't trust that standard on the web very much).

You'll be very disappointed when the babies don't come out with any copper to speak of.

I took another look at your blue indigo bird.

It genetically blue barless indigo gimpel bronze. It is not a very good archangel though (not nearly enough copper or sheen). Barless indigo is definitely not ever going to be called Andalusian.

Here is a picture (and some genetics info) on Andalusians.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Here is another picture of a blue spread heterozygous indigo (Andalusian), it is the dark one (the lighter one is a blue spread homozygous indigo - I think)


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

One of the birds on the second page looks very much Spread with Het indigo to me???


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The kid looks like barless indigo but the parent bird still looks like andalusian to me, sorry. Test mate it to a blue bird of another breed and see what it throws. Unless there is some other modifier that is giving it the laced look, I will continue to assume that is what it is.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The kid looks like barless indigo but the parent bird still looks like andalusian to me, sorry. Test mate it to a blue bird of another breed and see what it throws. Unless there is some other modifier that is giving it the laced look, I will continue to assume that is what it is.


Second that


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The kid looks like barless indigo but the parent bird still looks like andalusian to me, sorry. Test mate it to a blue bird of another breed and see what it throws. Unless there is some other modifier that is giving it the laced look, I will continue to assume that is what it is.


that would be the dad. he does look like his feathers are laced. kind of like the bird rudolph posted above, only not as dark. that picture was taken with another camera that made him look silver. he darker blue. 

I don't have room for any other breeds.  Although i do want american show racers. i could test breed to one of those if I ever got any blue ones, but there is the chance he will try to kill the hen.  i know someone who sell his racing culls at the auctions. 

he is mated to the dilute blue hen on that page, and thats the pair all the different colored blues are coming from. Besides that, shes the only hen I can pair him with, since he tries to scalp the others, and has killed one. 

Ill see if i can get a cleaner picture of him in some decent light. Since he is getting older, it almost looks like hes starting to get some bronze in his wing bars, that was not there when I first bought him. Ill look at him closer tomorrow, I think he might also have a light tail bar.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> One of the birds on the second page looks very much Spread with Het indigo to me???


that would be the dad.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> Since you are new to genetics, I'd recommend you stay away from pure blacks and from 'andalusians'. They are very difficult to breed (if it is possible at all - I don't trust that standard on the web very much).
> 
> You'll be very disappointed when the babies don't come out with any copper to speak of.
> 
> ...


Shes a baby. This is her first molt, so she may go darker as she gets older. She looks very dark, and does have quite a bit of green in the neck. the camera doesn't pick up the green. 

I actually have a stock bird that has no copper on it at all. I want it to try to reproduce the toy stencils and modena bronze checks I had. Darned things flew off on me a couple of months ago. thats the only bird I have left out of that line. im not trying to sound ignorant or like some huge pigeon backyard breeder, or anything though.  

If i get birds that don't go copper its not a big deal since I can either keep it as a pet, or send it to a local auction.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

i looked at the cockbird again tonight, and no he doesn't have a tail-bar. his tail is very dark blue.


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