# Help! Sick baby ringneck!



## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

My 3.5 week old baby ringneck dove (just weaned, but not out of family cage yet) seems sick. She's spending a lot of time fluffed up and just today her poops turned green. Looked in her mouth just in case and couldn't find anything unusual. Her vent is clean. She seems sleepier than normal (though still becomes jealous if we feed sibling seeds and will come over to steal them lol). What should I do? Antibiotics for the whole family of birds? 

The thing on her wing is just stuck-on grossness. Will come off with some warm water on a paper towel. 









The green poo as seen with a flash. Top brownish poo is from younger sibling. 









The green poo without flash.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

They have been eating this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18947&cmpid=04csesz&ref=3474&subref=AA

And a lot of this, which does have some multi-colored pellets incl. green:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=20315

And everyone has just started drinking.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Is it possible that over-eating grit is the problem, as in this post? 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=367150&postcount=12


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Her feet feel cooler than normal


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

My friend here suggested ornacycline or marvel aid for the whole family. I can't find any, but I haven't checked everywhere yet.

The Tractor supply said over the phone that they only have "oxycyline." Maybe they meant "doxycycline."


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think it would be wise to treat her/them.. you can get it online or I do think petsmart has it..


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I think it would be wise to treat her/them.. you can get it online or I do think petsmart has it..


PetSmart here has absolutely no antibiotics (according to their clerk over the phone.) This is what I could find at Tractor Supply. Is it ok? What dosage should be given to 3.5 week-old babies? To the adult birds? How should I administer?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I helped another member a while ago with dosing for Duramycin-10, here's the post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=460411&postcount=46

Any questions, ask.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> I helped another member a while ago with dosing for Duramycin-10, here's the post:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=460411&postcount=46
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. 

My concern, though is the label directions that it seems like you base your calculations on are for chickens and turkeys (maybe I'm reading wrong...). Even if you scaled it down for a pigeon, this is a little baby dove. I'm really scared of overdosing. 

Maybe I just need to go to the vet and hope they don't charge me enough to mess up my car payment/insurance.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> My concern, though is the label directions that it seems like you base your calculations on are for chickens and turkeys (maybe I'm reading wrong...). Even if you scaled it down for a pigeon, this is a little baby dove. I'm really scared of overdosing.
> 
> Maybe I just need to go to the vet and hope they don't charge me enough to mess up my car payment/insurance.


When we medicate by water, part of what is assumed is any bird is going to drink an amount of water daily based on what their body weight requires. So a smaller bird will drink a small amount of water, therefore receiving a smaller amount of medicine, but appropriate for their body weight. If your little dove consumes even 10% of its body weight a day (saying it weighs 100 grams for the sake of argument), it will be drinking 10mL of water, which will contain a little over 2mg of tetracycline, so there would be no concerns at all about overdosing (if anything, we have to make sure she is getting enough water to make sure the medicine she is receiving is at a therapeutic level). My real preference would be to use the Duramycin-10 as a stop gap measure and get her some Trimethoprim/Sulfa we can dose orally at a correct and precise amount.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> When we medicate by water, part of what is assumed is any bird is going to drink an amount of water daily based on what their body weight requires. So a smaller bird will drink a small amount of water, therefore receiving a smaller amount of medicine, but appropriate for their body weight. If your little dove consumes even 10% of its body weight a day (saying it weighs 100 grams for the sake of argument), it will be drinking 10mL of water, which will contain a little over 2mg of tetracycline, so there would be no concerns at all about overdosing (if anything, we have to make sure she is getting enough water to make sure the medicine she is receiving is at a therapeutic level).
> 
> Karyn


That makes sense.  The babies were both drinking really well for me earlier, so I think we'll be ok there unless she gets so sick she can't perch or move around. Now to figure out exactly how much water goes in their dish... Now I wish I had access to some chemistry stuff. 

Backtracking a bit, because I want to get this all perfect, do you think Duramycin is the right choice here? Or do I really just need to go to the vet (assuming I can find one)?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> That makes sense.  Backtracking a bit, because I want to get this all perfect, do you think Duramycin is the right choice here? Or do I really just need to go to the vet (assuming I can find one)?


I made an edit to my previous post addressing the concern you raise.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Oh, forgot to mention anywhere: I've got the babies set up in a small cage with a heat pad along the side and a towel over that half.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> My real preference would be to use the Duramycin-10 as a stop gap measure and get her some Trimethoprim/Sulfa we can dose orally at a correct and precise amount.
> 
> Karyn


K, sounds like a smart plan. The petstores here don't seem to have that, though, and this Duramycin is the best I could find at the tractor supply. 

Should I look for a vet to prescribe? I know the window with disease is small, so I want to get this right and get it quick.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> K, sounds like a smart plan. The petstores here don't seem to have that, though, and this Duramycin is the best I could find at the tractor supply.
> 
> Should I look for a vet to prescribe? I know the window with disease is small, so I want to get this right and get it quick.


Yes, this would be the best plan, as it would be the quickest. The same medicine is available for humans where it is known as Septra, Bactrim or Cotrimoxazole and this would work as well, one pill would do to make a suspension from.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Yes, this would be the best plan, as it would be the quickest. The same medicine is available for humans where it is known as Septra, Bactrim or Cotrimoxazole and this would work as well, one pill would do to make a suspension from.
> 
> Karyn


We don't have any human antibiotics around. Seems like they only ever give me enough to get me over strep or whatever I've decided to come down with at that point. For some reason the pet stores don't carry antibiotics, and the feed stores only carry a little.

I'm researching avian vets who are in town tonight and plotting the best way to move the babies (it could be stormy/scary tomorrow for them) in my tiny car. (I think the modded guinea pig cage will fit in my child-sized back seat.)


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## DoubleDoves (May 16, 2011)

One of my doves, Irc, had some kind of spastic attack earlier this week after getting himself stuck between a wall and a storage box. I was at work at the time and my boyfriend too him to an Exotic Pet and Animal hospital after being referred there from one of our local vets (if you're located in Michigan, Parkway Small Animal and Exotic Hospital is a great place to go). Both our birds travel fairly often with us however, and they both love the car, so Irc had no trouble. Any small cage should be okay though, and if they seem fearful a blanket or towel should calm them.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

DoubleDoves said:


> One of my doves, Irc, had some kind of spastic attack earlier this week after getting himself stuck between a wall and a storage box. I was at work at the time and my boyfriend too him to an Exotic Pet and Animal hospital after being referred there from one of our local vets (if you're located in Michigan, Parkway Small Animal and Exotic Hospital is a great place to go). Both our birds travel fairly often with us however, and they both love the car, so Irc had no trouble. Any small cage should be okay though, and if they seem fearful a blanket or towel should calm them.


Their parents/all of our birds *despise* the car, that's why I was/am kind of concerned. I think these babies trust me enough to do ok, theoretically.  

Thanks for the recommendation--sadly I live in Nebraska.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> We don't have any human antibiotics around. Seems like they only ever give me enough to get me over strep or whatever I've decided to come down with at that point. For some reason the pet stores don't carry antibiotics, and the feed stores only carry a little.
> 
> I'm researching avian vets who are in town tonight and plotting the best way to move the babies (it could be stormy/scary tomorrow for them) in my tiny car. (I think the modded guinea pig cage will fit in my child-sized back seat.)


Forgot to mention the dose rate for the Trimethoprim/Sulfa would be 50mg/kg BID, just about any vet will have the medicine on hand as it is used for a number of other small animals as well.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Forgot to mention the dose rate for the Trimethoprim/Sulfa would be 50mg/kg BID, just about any vet will have the medicine on hand as it is used for a number of other small animals as well.
> 
> Karyn


Ok, I'm thinking about going to these guys in the morning, they have good reviews online and I think I've heard of them before: http://bestcarepethospitalomaha.com/

I hope they can squeeze me into their schedule. It sounds like they work with lots of exotics/birds.

It's too bad my usual vet only works with mammals.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, keep us updated on things. Don't forget, if you can't get in, your regular vet could prescribe the medicine for you.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Sounds good, keep us updated on things. Don't forget, if you can't get in, your regular vet could prescribe the medicine for you.
> 
> Karyn


If I have to I will ask him, (though usually his policy is absolutely no birds in the office at all as they are not his specialty.)

Hoping I can get into an avian vet and find them to be sane/not a slimeball.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Liz, I sent you a pvt message, but unsure if you got it. My computer is running slow due to a download going on. Call and ask for Dr. "B".He is a trusted avain vet of mine. His # is 402-734-1494. 3030 L. Best Care Vet. Tell him the pigeon man, Victor sent you! And yes, I live near the Zoo!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Victor said:


> Liz, I sent you a pvt message, but unsure if you got it. My computer is running slow due to a download going on. Call and ask for Dr. "B".He is a trusted avain vet of mine. His # is 402-734-1494. 3030 L. Best Care Vet. Tell him the pigeon man, Victor sent you! And yes, I live near the Zoo!


I just went in to that vet this morning and they got the babies taken care of. The little girl has a bacterial infection, but no parasites fortunately. She's going to get 1 drop of Metronidazole (liquid 50 mg/ml) twice daily. I'm supposed to call the vet and update him in two days. He also wants me to really watch their food intake, as their keel bones stick out more than he would like. (Said their weight was good though.) I think they are a bit skinny because the parents weaned cold turkey. Fortunately the babies were pecking pretty well. I'm not volunteering at the zoo tomorrow so that I can continue watching them.

Other than that, the babies did fantastically in the car. Now I get how people manage to take their doves on vacation and stuff. Their parents are less tolerant (especially high-strung mom, though the dad is a snobby little thing who gets mad if he doesn't get his way.) They did great in the vet's office, he said that the little girl's heart rate was nice and calm even. The orange baby got jealous and came out and enjoyed observing a giant inflatable tick hanging from the ceiling.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Great news Liz! I am happy DR. "B" was able to care for your feathered family!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Victor said:


> Great news Liz! I am happy DR. "B" was able to care for your feathered family!


I really like how he teaches while evaluating.  He would check something, and then show me and explain. Even had me looking in the microscope at the poop samples.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> The little girl has a bacterial infection, but no parasites fortunately. She's going to get 1 drop of Metronidazole (liquid 50 mg/ml) twice daily.


Glad you were able to get into the vet. You mention that your little one has a bacterial infection, so I am curious as to why your vet prescribed Metronidazole, which is usually used to treat canker (trichomoniasis) infections in Pigeons/Doves and is although it has use as an antibiotic its range is narrow spectrum, ans is usually used with anaerobic bacteria.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Glad you were able to get into the vet. You mention that your little one has a bacterial infection, so I am curious as to why your vet prescribed Metronidazole, which is usually used to treat canker (trichomoniasis) infections in Pigeons/Doves and is although it has use as an antibiotic its range is narrow spectrum, ans is usually used with anaerobic bacteria.
> 
> Karyn


You know, that is weird b/c I swear he said baytril... though maybe he changed his mind. maybe I should call. 

Or maybe that's what the deal was and the little monsters are anearobic. The bacteria looked like pink rods...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> You know, that is weird b/c I swear he said baytril... though maybe he changed his mind. maybe I should call.
> 
> Or maybe that's what the deal was and the little monsters are anearobic. The bacteria looked like pink rods...


Definitely call.

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would double check that... give them a call back..


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

yeah, i better

*edit* just called. they have to wait on people to get back from lunch to give me a call back.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Liz, did you call him back?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Victor said:


> Liz, did you call him back?


Yes, but they didn't get back to me for a couple of hours. They said he wasn't in at that point, but that they checked and that even if this is the wrong med it won't hurt her in any way. He's supposed to call me in the morning.

She does act slightly better. She has more energy today.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> Yes, but they didn't get back to me for a couple of hours. They said he wasn't in at that point, but that they checked and that even if this is the wrong med it won't hurt her in any way. He's supposed to call me in the morning.
> 
> She does act slightly better. She has more energy today.


I myself would still use the Duramycin-10, along with the Metronidazole until you get things straighten out. Even if somehow they labeled Baytril as Metronidazole, both meds (Baytril or Metronidazole) work well together with tetracycline. I don't see why they need a day to get to the bottom of this. Glad she is acting a little better.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> I myself would still use the Duramycin-10, along with the Metronidazole until you get things straighten out. Even if somehow they labeled Baytril as Metronidazole, both meds (Baytril or Metronidazole) work well together with tetracycline. I don't see why they need a day to get to the bottom of this. Glad she is acting a little better.
> 
> Karyn


I talked to the vet this morning. He said that Baytril has been linked to stunting growth and other such problems in babies so he decided to use Metronidazole. He wants to see how the Metronidazole does before adding other medications.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> I talked to the vet this morning. He said that Baytril has been linked to stunting growth and other such problems in babies so he decided to use Metronidazole. He wants to see how the Metronidazole does before adding other medications.


Libis, I know the reports that he speaks of and have read some of them, most lab tests where run on other species than birds, at very high doses and for prolonged periods of time. I, and others here, do take these reports into account when making recommendations, and for birds, the reports are for birds under 3 weeks of age, that is precisely why I asked that you have your vet prescribe the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, as this antibiotic really is the broad spectrum antibiotic of choice in young birds. Metronidazole has almost no use as a broad spectrum antibiotic and in fact, this is the first time I heard of a vet using it for this, without having a specific infection (IE; canker) of targeting specific bacteria type. Please have him prescribe the Trimethoprim/Sulfa today.

I just wanted also mention that this has been discussed, (the use Baytril in young) and it was suggested by Jenfer (another member with a good knowledge set) that her vet will prescribe Baytril in birds under 3 weeks, on a case by case basis, and has never had any issues doing so.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Libis, I know the reports that he speaks of and have read some of them, most lab tests where run on other species than birds, at very high doses and for prolonged periods of time. I, and others here, do take these reports into account when making recommendations, and for birds, the reports are for birds under 3 weeks of age, that is precisely why I asked that you have your vet prescribe the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, as this antibiotic really is the broad spectrum antibiotic of choice in young birds. Metronidazole has almost no use as a broad spectrum antibiotic and in fact, this is the first time I heard of a vet using it for this, without having a specific infection (IE; canker) of targeting specific bacteria type. Please have him prescribe the Trimethoprim/Sulfa today.
> 
> I just wanted also mention that this has been discussed, (the use Baytril in young) and it was suggested by Jenfer (another member with a good knowledge set) that her vet will prescribe Baytril in birds under 3 weeks, on a case by case basis, and has never had any issues doing so.
> 
> Karyn


I'm not seeing the green poops today, and she has a lot more energy and is eating and drinking with renewed vigor. Still fluffed up once in a while, but not nearly as often--she even got out of her cage by accident and flew a bit before coming back. I want to let the vet try his way because so far it seems like it's working.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> I'm not seeing the green poops today, and she has a lot more energy and is eating and drinking with renewed vigor. Still fluffed up once in a while, but not nearly as often--she even got out of her cage by accident and flew a bit before coming back. I want to let the vet try his way because so far it seems like it's working.


You have to do what you feel is best, just wanted to give you my thoughts. Did the vet say what kind of infection s/he thinks it is?

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Not exactly. He showed me the bacteria under the microscope and basically said that "those pink rods are definitely what you don't want to see."


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

The baby is all better now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Libis said:


> The baby is all better now.


Thanks for the update, glad to hear things worked out for your little one.

Karyn


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

I brought her to the vet on Friday and he was so excited to see how big the babies were and how much healthier they were. He couldn't wait to get out the scale and see how much weight they gained.


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