# I Sincerely Need Help on Pigeon with PMV Symptoms



## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

I am Srikanth from Bangalore, India, new to this forum. 

Last night while walking on my street I found a pigeon on the road who was having difficulty in flying. Since it was dark it would have easily become a prey for dogs and cats on the street. So I rescued the pigeon and decided to release in next morning.
*
However I found that it is having a twisted neck (torsion neck) and always sees upwards when held in hand and sees sidewards when kept in a carton box (I have kept him in a warm carton box). The stools are loose with small green substance surrounded by a lot of watery substance. *
After a few research, I found out that the bird may be infected by PMV virus/paratyphoid.

*The pigeon acts almost similar to the one shown in the below video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVKjDyvO5P8&feature=related*

*He is really inactive, doesn't try to fly when released and is not taking any food. However he is physically free from any wounds/injuries and his wings seemed to be well developed and healthy.* I am worried about what to do with this. I have a few questions.

1. Is this a PMV or a paratyphoid?

2. Will it become normal in the future and able to fly back if released, if so how long it might take up?

3. How to handle the bird and how to feed it? (as it is not bothered to take food/water).

4. Will the bird survive and recover to a healthy state?

5. I am ready to take him to vet but I doubt that thye have any expertise to deal with pigeon/pmv diseases.

6. Any other suggestions/help is highly appreciated..

Waiting to get a reply from you. Please help!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

First of all thanks for helping the bird out, it sure would have become a prey in that condition.

1. Is this a PMV or a paratyphoid?
A lab test can confirm that, my guess is that its PMV

2. Will it become normal in the future and able to fly back if released, if so how long it might take up?
With supportive care a pigeon can recover from PMV, the time can range from a few weeks to month (right medicine and supplements - 1 - 1 1/2 months)

3. How to handle the bird and how to feed it? (as it is not bothered to take food/water).
I believe its a fully featheres adult bird, you can feed him corn, green peas, chick peas, green gram, soaked in water for 4 hours. You can find the instructions in the resources section here, there are also videos in the youtube. Initially feed some 20 chickpeas and if its getting digested then increase the quantity step by step. An adult pigeon will have upto 40 as one time feed.

4. Will the bird survive and recover to a healthy state?
With supportive care, medication and supplements, YES. Some pigeons do suffer from neurological symtoms after recovery.

5. I am ready to take him to vet but I doubt that thye have any expertise to deal with pigeon/pmv diseases.
Don't get into conclusions here, there are well trained and devoted vets and they are qualified. If I can easily find good vet doctors here at Calicut, I am pretty sure you can too in Bangalore. Give it a search in the google (vet clinic in Bangalore). The survival and recovery of the pigeon increases pretty much when a vet examines, diagnose and prescribe the right medicine and supplements. Do ask the vet to subscribe calcium and vitamin supplement for pigeons and the dosage.

6. Any other suggestions/help is highly appreciated
Keep the pigeon at a safe warm place. Feed it twice a day and keep a deep dish of wheat grain (which will not topple) and water. With your supportive care that pigeon would be healthy again and can be released back.

We have members from Bangalore here at Pigeon-Talk, they will be able to guide and help you more.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi sriki,


Most likely 'PPMV'...

But, if you have access to a sympathetic Avian Vet, seek his opinion and advise.

If the Vet thinks it may be paratyphoid, then he will prescribe Antibiotics and explain the course of treatment.

These Pigeons will tend to recover with time and care, even if sometimes they may have a legacy effecting their co-ordinations, and if so, it can be dealt with then.

Usually, in caring for them, one becomes so fond of and attatched to them, that if they never recover fully, one does not mind so much, since one is already used to their companionship and presense and one had grown fond of them as they are.


Once certain his system will pass and digest Seeds...( probably it will, probably he has been starving and dehydrating...but, make sure he can be well re-hydrated first, small drinking sessions for the next twelve or fourteen hours or so, before letting him have a small meal of proper 'small size' Seeds only, for now, of Pigeon type Seeds).

Rehydration Solution may be made using a pinch of common Salt, one of Sugar, one of Baking Soda, dissolved into a 8 ounce or so of Water. Use a low Tea Cup for him to drink out of with your help. Do not leave Water in with him...only have him drink with your supervision and help for the time being.

You can help him to drink ( and later, to eat) by having him on a Towel on your Lap as you sit.

Cover him up to his Head, so only his Beak points 'out', with a second light Cloth ( light cloth so he does not get hot, but also so his attention may be focused forward ).

Have a small Bowl of Rehydration Solution in front of him.

Gently cup your Hand over and around his Head, and, steady his Head so he can drink ( without 'Star Gazing' ). You may have to gently guide his Beak into the Water for him to understand and to drink.

Possibly you will need to steady his Head in some special way different from what I describe.


The same procedure, for him to Peck appripriate small whole Seeds, once he is rehydrated ( say, in twelve or fourteen hours, and for five or six water drinking sessions ).

These Pigeons will usually starve or dehydrate to death, because they can not manage the co-ordination for pecking Seeds, let alone drinking, flying and so on.

So, with our help, and gentleness, we can help them to eat and drink by steadying their Head so their Head is low and their Beak is an inch or less from the Seeds or Water.

These Pigeons need special gentleness and help and for everything to be done very slowly and softly, especially when picking them up. They are very stressed from their condition.


The symptoms will generally pass and or improve soon enough, especially with good hydration and good nutrition...till then, help him eat and drink as I have described...provide soft rumpled cloths for comfort in his Box...have holes in the Box sides for him to see out of...have the Box set up no lower than a Table Top...cover the open Box top with a sheer cloth so Light may filter in.


Be very slow and gentle in everything you do, especially when picking him up...slip your hand under him so his Legs dangle between your fingers when lifting him...keep him in a normal attitude when lifting or carrying, so his sense of Balance is not insulted.


Good luck!


Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

As suggested, could be either problem in the absence of other pointers.

This link describes PMV symptoms you can check for. If the bird also shows some other symptoms that are in the list, then PMV is probable. If not, then it's likely that only an examination and/or getting a dropping sample tested for possible bacterial infection will provide grounds for diagnosis.

John


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

*Thank you so much for all your help*

I really thank for all your help and love on me.* The bird has become active since morning.* It is able to stand on his own legs, and if released will try to fly but will fall after rising a few feet high. Also he tries to run and escape if released. 

I fed him with ragi, and water+sugar+pinch of salt solution with an eye dropper. He responds well to my handfeeding. 

After a close observation I found that he can bring his neck to normal position but cannot sustain more than 2-3 seconds in that position. Also his neck is twisted to his right and he is unable to turn and see to his left. 

*Poops are watery with few green spots in the middle. Seems mostly like a PMV to me.* Since I have had the experience of handling pigeons (I had kept them as pets a few years ago and was quite experienced) it doesn't seem to be a problem for me.

However I have never come accross any such disease in my pigeons as they were pretty healthy.

Now my question is that since PMV is a virus no antibiotics can work on it. So is it mandatory to take him to vet or is it ok to take care of him under supervision. Also can you suggest me a few calcium and general drugs to feed him with. 

I need your opinion and can you estimate the health level of this bird based on his activities and conditions explained above.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

For Calcium you can use Ossomin, Ostovet, etc. 3 - 4 drops is what I give my pigeons.
Tefroli is an anti stress ayurvedic liver tonic which can be used during recovery and Vimeral is a vitamin supplement (once per week). You will have to make out the dosage for one bird from that written on the bottle. All three are available in vet medical stores.

Advantages of taking the bird to the vet and getting a fecal/blood test are that 

1) It can be confirmed whether it is PMV or paratyphoid
2) Any other disease which the pigeon might be carrying along with the current disease can be diagnosed

Antibiotics are generally prescribed by doctors to prevent any subsquent illness that can come up during PMV if there is a reduced immunity. The Govt. vet hospital conducts fecal/blood sample tests for free here. I hope it would be the same in Bangalore too.


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

Thank you v much Sreesh for your valuable guidance. I am planning to take him to the vet clinic tomorrow. Let the doctor diagonise him so that I can know whats wrong. 

BTW he is able to eat on his own and seems better in day time. However during the evenings he becomes inactive and the neck starts to twist badly in an upside down position (During days he used to gaze sidewards)

Any idea of what might be the reason...


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

sriki said:


> BTW he is able to eat on his own and seems better in day time. However during the evenings he becomes inactive and the neck starts to twist badly in an upside down position (During days he used to gaze sidewards)
> 
> Any idea of what might be the reason...


That is an interesting observation, sriki. I have a pigeon here who had a relapse of some of the symptoms of PMV due to the permanent damage to the nervous system (she doesn't have the actual virus now). She is almost well again, but for a couple of weeks she was like that. Getting better during the day and then in the evening she would walk around and keep stopping and turning her head upsaide down. I don't know why the time of day makes a difference. I have also noticed (as have others) that when PMV pigeons are in their cages for the night, they often twirl in circles and run about once it is dark, for a short time before settling down.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Please protect him from any attempts at flying.

If he has food in his Crop now, allow guided drinking while waiting for Crop to empty, and for poops and urates to be produced from his recent eating/drinking.

If you can get raw Apple Cider Vinegar, use three Tablespoons of it to a Gallon of Water, and have that be his drinking Water now and for a week.


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

I took him to a vet. He has prescribed Livjivan (liver drops) 10 drops twice daily (morning and evening) and Primer ABDEC drops 10 drops twice daily.

He doesn't know much about PMV and said that the neck torsion can also happen due to b-complex difficiency.

I just wanna ask whether Livjivan and AMDEC drops will make any help in the current situation.

Should I go for Terfoli or stick with livjivan itself. I need your valuable feedback.


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> First of all thanks for helping the bird out, it sure would have become a prey in that condition.
> 
> 1. Is this a PMV or a paratyphoid?
> A lab test can confirm that, my guess is that its PMV


I am confused whether it is a PMV or a paratyphoid. Since paratyphoid can be cured with antibiotics I need your help in distinguishing between the two.

I have read the symptoms of PMV as per the following link

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12250.html

I need the symptoms of paratyphoid to compare with my bird. If anyone can give the symptoms of it I would be grateful. Also plz help me distinguishing bet the two.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

10 drops of Primer ABDEC twice daily...... I have my doubts that it is an over dose, not sure. 

Telling PMV from Paratyphoid, I would request our experienced members to comment on it.

Would have been better if you could have run a lab test.


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

sreeshs said:


> 10 drops of Primer ABDEC twice daily...... I have my doubts that it is an over dose, not sure.
> 
> Telling PMV from Paratyphoid, I would request our experienced members to comment on it.
> 
> Would have been better if you could have run a lab test.


Is Livjivan a substitute for terfoli? Can I use the Ossomin and vineral along with the cureent prescribed drugs?


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

These are question which a vet should answer

Livjivan and Tefroli are of same function so need not be used together, so is Vimeral and Primer ABDEC as both are vitamin supplements. Ossomin/Ostovet is a calcium supplement.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> He doesn't know much about PMV and said that the *neck torsion can also happen due to b-complex difficiency*.


That usually presents itself as opisthotonos, when the neck is pulled back towards the tail.



> I need the symptoms of paratyphoid to compare with my bird. If anyone can give the symptoms of it I would be grateful. Also plz help me distinguishing bet the two.


I have never had a case of paratyphoid but the symptoms that turn up a lot when researching it are torticollis, wing and leg lameness, swollen joints and very smelly poops.

This paper might provide more details Clinical Manifestations of Paratyphoid in Pigeons but it has to be bought before we can see whether it has the detailed information.

There is a video about paratyphoid on the internet, but neurological symptoms are not included.

In the UK wildlife hospitals diagnose PMV on a combination of polyuria (passing a lot of water), Polydipsia (drinking a lot of water) and neurological symptoms, or on polyuria without weight loss.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Sriki

A vitamin B defciency can cause problems with the nervous system, and I have come across one case on this forum which could have been that, but it is pretty unusual. Not sure that looks like PMV or paratyphoid, however. For a recued pigeon it is possible, as it depends on what they can find to eat, but I've never come across one in the past 12 years. Proper feeding should help to overcome that. Ragi seems to have quite a lot of nutrition, anyway.

Wing paralysis can occur in paratyphoid and the neck torsion in paratyphoid is similar to PMV, though I consider that birds with PMV are usually more active. With paratyphoid, birds may also have swellings on the joints (wing joints, leg joints) but that is not always so. Diarrhea is another common sign. I have read, but not personally observed, that it may be hard to tell parayphoid from E. coli.

If a bird was showing only inability to fly plus neck torsion, with no other obvious symptoms, it would be difficult to advise what the problem would be. All birds I've taken in from my balcony showing that have had PMV, anyway.

Not sure about these medications. Looked them up and all I could find was they were good for dogs 

John


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

John_D said:


> Hi Sriki
> 
> Wing paralysis can occur in paratyphoid and the neck torsion in paratyphoid is similar to PMV, though I consider that birds with PMV are usually more active. With paratyphoid, birds may also have swellings on the joints (wing joints, leg joints) but that is not always so. Diarrhea is another common sign. I have read, but not personally observed, that it may be hard to tell parayphoid from E. coli.
> 
> ...


My pigeon shows neck torsion, inability to fly as a result and diarrhea. However it's wings are just perfect, legs are fine with no swellings. It is able to eat on it's own and drink too. But as far as drinking is concerned I am handfeeding it with eyedropper since keeping water inside the box may lead to spilling of watter.

Otherwise the bird is fine and shows a lot of resistance when held in hand or while handfeeding.

I personally inquired the vet about whether these medications can be given to a bird or only to dors/cats. He told that it can also be given to a bird. There is no other go for me except to believe and follow what a vet says.

I mostly suppose it is a PMV and not a paratyphoid. Not sure. Days should pass and things should improve. hope so!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just offer Water and steady his Head for him to drink...this is easy to work out and do.


Trying to eyedropper Water in is not going to be nearly enough Water for his needs, and it is also dangerous to him for you to be trying to do that.

Please go back and consider Post # 3...even if obviously the rehydration part is now passed.

Just be mindful and slow and gentle, respect his sens of balance and selfhood, and this method of helping him drink or eat will work well, and ease his anxieties also...it will calm him.

If you are still having troubles with him struggling, obviously little or no trust or ease or ocmfort in how he is being handled, has been worked out yet.


Review...take your time, do things slowly, begin correctly, and proceed correctly, and it will be vastly easier for both you and the Pigeon.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Just offer Water and steady his Head for him to drink...this is easy to work out and do.
> 
> 
> *Trying to eyedropper Water in is not going to be nearly enough Water for his needs*, and it is also dangerous to him for you to be trying to do that.


This is very important.

Withholding water can cause it a lot of stress because it needs to drink even more than it would normally need. 

A 400 grm bird will drink between 20 and 60 ml per day (Dr Colin Walker, The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health and Management)


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Just offer Water and steady his Head for him to drink...this is easy to work out and do.
> 
> 
> Trying to eyedropper Water in is not going to be nearly enough Water for his needs, and it is also dangerous to him for you to be trying to do that.


Thanks for the advice. I am now offering the water in a cup and helping him to drink. He is drinking on his own now with a little help.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feefo said:


> This is very important.
> 
> Withholding water can cause it a lot of stress because it needs to drink even more than it would normally need.
> 
> A 400 grm bird will drink between 20 and 60 ml per day (Dr Colin Walker, The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health and Management)



Here in Las Vegas, a 350 Gram Pigeon will drink 7 or 8 Ounces or more of Water a Day.

If ill, if trying to flush their system, more even.

Colin walker never bothered to notice that dry hot climes are not the same as cool humid climes.


I myself, being of medium size, 145 lbs, have been drinking over 2 Gallons of Liquid a day lately...and if I pee a pint finally at night, for all that, I'd be surprised.

People who stay indoors in airconditioned conditions, would not need to drink as much.

I am working out doors and or in un-cooled conditions.



Climate make a lot of difference for hydration needs.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sriki said:


> Thanks for the advice. I am now offering the water in a cup and helping him to drink. He is drinking on his own now with a little help.




Very good...this will be a much better way to go...


Best wishes!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Colin Walker never bothered to notice that dry hot climes are not the same as cool humid climes.


LOL, Phil, you do know Colin Walker is in Australia, don't you? I don't think that Australia is genarally classified as a "cool humid climate" though at times some areas might be...!

_The climate of Australia varies widely, but by far the largest part of Australia is desert or semi-arid – 40% of the landmass is covered by sand dunes. Only the south-east and south-west corners have a temperate climate and moderately fertile soil. The northern part of the country has a tropical climate, varied between tropical rainforests, grasslands, part desert._


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

I took him to the terrace so that he could be little exposed to sunlight. I took the box and kept it on the terrace, took the bird out and placed it out of the box. He was lying on the floor with his neck twisted for a few min. After a while he saw the skies, started to walk.

I tried to catch him but he started to fly, I attempted again and finally he flew into the skies like a healthy bird would do and disappeared in seconds.

I couldn't believe my eyes that such a sick bird could fly. 

Don't know how he would pass his next days . Anyways I came to know that he is able to fly and manage himself .


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

May be he was at the last recovering days of the disease, lets hope so


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sriki said:


> I took him to the terrace so that he could be little exposed to sunlight. I took the box and kept it on the terrace, took the bird out and placed it out of the box. He was lying on the floor with his neck twisted for a few min. After a while he saw the skies, started to walk.
> 
> I tried to catch him but he started to fly, I attempted again and finally he flew into the skies like a healthy bird would do and disappeared in seconds.
> 
> ...




This is not a good thing.

Most likely the Pigeon will starve to death, and not manage to fly reliably to find forage and Water, and or will have problems flying which will also result in injury or death in traffic or other dangers.

I do not think it is good to release any Pigeon showing PPMV symptoms...even if some days may be better than others, symptom-wise.


If you find him again, please bring him home and or find someone who has amenities for caring for him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feefo said:


> LOL, Phil, you do know Colin Walker is in Australia, don't you? I don't think that Australia is genarally classified as a "cool humid climate" though at times some areas might be...!
> 
> _The climate of Australia varies widely, but by far the largest part of Australia is desert or semi-arid – 40% of the landmass is covered by sand dunes. Only the south-east and south-west corners have a temperate climate and moderately fertile soil. The northern part of the country has a tropical climate, varied between tropical rainforests, grasslands, part desert._


Possibly he was quoting from Northern Europan references based on sedantary Pigeons, in Winter, in Coops too small to fly in, for how much a Pigeon Drinks in-a-day.

The Pigeons here sure as heck do not drink so little as the experts typically say anyway...especially in Summer.

6 to 10 ounces a day, per Bird is what I see.

2-1/2 Gallons drank in two days for the inside free rove ones, of whom there are about 30 Pigeons.

Caged convelescents, their 6 to 8 ounce Cups fresh Cup at midnight, bone dry by afternoon the next day ( and not from being knocked over...)




I have no idea what his mention is based on.


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> This is not a good thing.
> 
> Most likely the Pigeon will starve to death, and not manage to fly reliably to find forage and Water, and or will have problems flying which will also result in injury or death in traffic or other dangers.
> 
> ...


I know and understand your point. I never took him to the terrace in the intention of releasing. I took him only to expose him to the sunlight so that he could dry his winds and get refreshed. 

However I was never aware of the fact that he is capable of flying. He flew off before I could react.

I am waiting eagarly for him to return (hoping so). If he comes back i will keep him until he is fully fit and healthy.

Thanks for all those members for the help, support and love on me.


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## sriki (Jul 11, 2010)

I was so much attached to him for just two days which makes it hard o forget him. With this all my memories of the past (my childhood days with pigeons in my grandfather's house) reappeared and I am feeling lonely and sad.

My mind is now thinking of bringing a pair of pigeons for adoption. But can't really go against my paren't will. I believe they won't allow them in home.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I understand.


I often would set PPM survivors out among the feral Flock here in my Courtyard, for them to have some supervised Sunshine and social time...these were definite "Non Fliers", and every once in a while one would take off..!!

I'd have to follow them and get them rounded up, and bring them back home.


Usually, they'd be 'triwling' or scooting around backwards on someone else's Roof top...me scambling for a Ladder and so on.

So, yeahhh, I understand...look around for them, they might not have gone far.


Some will recover eventually to where there is either no sign or hint of neurological legacy, or only some very mild hints, and these sometimes can fly very well.

One has to worry though about relapse, days, weeks or months or even years later...which can happen...and, in the Wild, a relapse of symptoms could doom them.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry that it flew away, we must always expect the unexpected from pigeons. Watch out for it, it might return to where you found it. About 10years ago there was one in my flock who had his head twisted under him, he used to spiral down from the roof tops when I fed the flock but I couldn't catch him. Then one day I found him in the street trying to eat bread but unable to do so because his beak was pointing at the sky, so I grabbed him and took him home. He was my second pigeon with PMV and he is still alive and well.



> Possibly he was quoting from Northern Europan references based on sedantary Pigeons, in Winter, in Coops too small to fly in, for how much a Pigeon Drinks in-a-day.


Considering that he has 40 years experience as a pigeon keeper/fancier, 31 as a vet specialising in pigeon health, and owns the Australian Pigeon Company which develops, manufactures and distributes a range of pigeon health products I suspect that he use his own experience and sources more relevant to Australia where the bulk of his clients are rather than Northern Europe in winter and coops to small to fly.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feefo said:


> Considering that he has 40 years experience as a pigeon keeper/fancier, 31 as a vet specialising in pigeon health, and owns the Australian Pigeon Company which develops, manufactures and distributes a range of pigeon health products I suspect that he use his own experience and sources more relevant to Australia where the bulk of his clients are rather than Northern Europe in winter and coops to small to fly.



Not good if anyone in a hot clime relies on his drinking figures, when mixing meds into Bulk Water for individual or for flock treatments...where, the Pigeons would then get four or five times the intended daily dose if in a hot arid clime.


Climates differ, and with that, daily Hydration needs, in the form of Water intake for Man or Beast or Bird, will differ.


I think the correct answer to 'How much Water a Day does a Pigeon drink?"

Would be, it depends...

On Climate...

On level of activity...

On size/weight of the Pigeon...

On the condition or health of the Pigeon, and whether they are in a system-flushing phase.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Phil, that is why he gives a range and an average. 

The important figure is the lower one...they can drink more, they will if they have PMV, but the extra water will pass right through them (that is why PMV pigeons have watery poops). Giving them less than the recommendation would lead to dehydration which is what we were aiming to avoid in this case.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...

He recommended a 'range'...I missed that part.


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