# white birds



## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

so from what i understand white is just a color that is covering another color right?
black also right?

so can i get white if i breed a white to a black bird? is it possible? 

Thanks


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

It would be neater if you could get a '50s diner floor style checker board though.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

White is absence of color. so you can have anything under it, black, blue bar, red check, Recessive Red, anything.

Its said that there are many genes which individually or in combinations cause full white birds. The most common I believe is recessive white and homogeneous red grizzle.

Do not know much about the grizzle but rec. white as the name indicates is a cessive trait and requires both parents to carry it.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

If you want Whites--get a pair of Whites
If you want Blacks--get a pair of Blacks.
Hope in one hand and @#$%^ in the other hand and see which one gets full first.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

sky tx said:


> If you want Whites--get a pair of Whites
> If you want Blacks--get a pair of Blacks.


I don't quite agree with that statement. This is the genetics section of the forum after all, and I think we aught to encourage people to breed for the sake of interest.

It is possible that you can get a pure white from a mating of black x white, more likely you will get pied birds or grizzled birds**, but that is part of the fun of 'breeding for color', the suspense of waiting for the squabs to feather out to see what you got from a mating that is 'unconventional' to sky tx. 

I say, go for it, breed the black and white together. You could always find another white to mate to the white next year. 

Kind regards,
Rudolph

** depending on the breed in question, let me explain, starting with a quote:


sreeshs said:


> Its said that there are many genes which individually or in combinations cause full white birds. The most common I believe is recessive white and homogeneous red grizzle.


Sreeshs is correct, the two most common phenotypes of 'pure' white birds are recessive white and homozygous grizzle ash-red. He also states that there can be much more going on, but that these goings on are hidden by the white.

For instance, a certain homer breeder might mate pied birds together, since the traditional knowledge states that the amount of white increases with successive generations. Such matings might produce recessive whites, but those pied genes are still around, hidden. Breeding these recessive whites back to non-white birds, often gives the chance for the pied genes to express. An accidental mating in my loft of a stray white garden fantail hen with a blue bar homer, gave a black squab and a white tail marked black squab. The tail mark bred me some interesting pied pigeons.

Similarly, pied genes often go unnoticed in some heavily grizzled ash-red barred birds. I am personally still struggling 3 generations later to breed the pied out of some grizzled homer stock. The original cock is a beautiful ash-red bar grizzle, but he also carries those unwanted pied genes (I am not fond off bull-eyed homers). He has bred as many pied youngsters as he has bred non-pied, and many of the pied offspring have at least one bull eye.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You can get white from any known color as long s you have 1 bird that is white or split to white. I have found it faster useing white cock over colored hen. It may take 2 3 generations back to white But you will get white. Grizzle you can get white 1st generation. Black 2nd generation you can get white. This is a percent white and mixed color. Its a work in progress any time you color cross or breed cross.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Recessive white bird to a black will give you all colored kids that are split for recessive white, unless of course the black is split for it already....in which you will get half and half. You can't know for sure if a recessive white has any other white genes in its pool, so whether or not you get pied/splashed babies depends.
Homozygous grizzles to black will give you all het grizzles. Colors of the grizzles depends on which parent was grizzle and which was black.
The accumulation of pied genes can make a white bird. In which you'll more than likely NOT get more solid whites in F1, but pieds and splashes.


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## blongboy (Nov 10, 2009)

the reason i ask this is that i getting a pair of white from Dennis Kuhn...white long distance birds 

with only one pair of white i must inbred for white right?
i wanted to cross them to my black or bluebar then cross them back to the white so the family wont be so close...any thought?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

blongboy said:


> the reason i ask this is that i getting a pair of white from Dennis Kuhn...white long distance birds
> 
> with only one pair of white i must inbred for white right?
> i wanted to cross them to my black or bluebar then cross them back to the white so the family wont be so close...any thought?


Yes you can use the colored birds. To build your whites. Black over white 1st generation you get pied and full black but fade black Not a beetle sheen black Where most race blacks are not a bettle sheened black any way. 2 generation you get pied near white and perhaps 1 white 3rd you get most white Color is starting to be set. 4 and 5 generationm you set the color firm where it produce all white for generations. Blue you get several known colors in pied bar and check. Then more white as you breed down the line. Quality times color You want qulaity first then color So never close your eye to only color As some people do Not looking at out of color quality. As pigeon breeding is years not months to improve any line of birds. Most newer colors in race birds were from breed out cross. And most races birds that are black are a faded or sooty black Not a beetle sheen black as other breed lines have. Some old black eagles were rather well colored black But they were like that from import back in the late 70s early 80s HAd some myself imports 8 pair that was a deep beetle sheen black But no days even many of those are faded. Probaly from color cross and not build the color depth back. who knows.


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## billgriggs (Jan 8, 2011)

Breeding Help! I have 4 males, 5 females, I play music for them, but the males remain on the other side of the dance floor! the weather is remaining in the 60's, they have their own boxes, and have plenty of room (not stressed). Any idea what's wrong?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

How old are the birds in question? Are you sure of the sex? Do they have nest boxes? How about nesting material?


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## billgriggs (Jan 8, 2011)

7 months, guessing sex from size. 4 bowls within seperate boxes, plenty of filler materials?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

billgriggs said:


> 7 months, guessing sex from size. 4 bowls within seperate boxes, plenty of filler materials?


7 months is still a little young especially for hens, size isn't a good indicator on sex either, I would say wait and let them figure it out, may end up you don't have enough hens or enough cocks.


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## billgriggs (Jan 8, 2011)

*catching*

How do others catch their birds, I seem to stress mine a little to much.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

billgriggs said:


> How do others catch their birds, I seem to stress mine a little to much.


 Catch them in the dark or some train them to load through a chute into the crate that is outside a trapdoor .


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I agree with sky tx on this one. It would be a lot simpler to just buy 2 pair of white homers. That would eliminate all the inbreeding and unwanted birds.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

billgriggs said:


> Breeding Help! I have 4 males, 5 females, I play music for them, but the males remain on the other side of the dance floor! the weather is remaining in the 60's, they have their own boxes, and have plenty of room (not stressed). Any idea what's wrong?


*This is the Genetic Forum take your question to the General Discussion Forum.* GEORGE


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Jaysen said:


> It would be neater if you could get a '50s diner floor style checker board though.


 LMAO


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## billgriggs (Jan 8, 2011)

Why did I not think of that!!!


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## luckyloft (Oct 21, 2006)

I have whites and just because you breed 2 solid whites together will not always get you solid whites. Every now and then I will get splashes as well as birds with a little color here and there. I have a BB Splash hen that is about 50% white with bull eyes and she is mated to a solid white with bull eyes,I get solid white about 75% of the time. I have solid whites mated togeather and dont get that good a percent of white offspring.Just depends on what the parents have in them. Jeff


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

This is from Genetics of Pigeons,page 99.
Quinn (1971) states that the phenotype White does not alter the basic color genes or mutants the bird possesses ; He recommends mating to wild type to unmask the hidden basic pattern and color . However, it should be noted that white also masks Blue bar "wild type". I would recommend that instead of using wild type that researchers use the most recessive, I.e. khaki barless or at least brown barless, khaki bar, or brown bar as the tool to unmask the basic color and pattern. Also whenever possible the White bird should be the male. This allows dilutes, reduced, barless, and browns hidden by the White to express as well as the Blues and Ash red bars, checks,etc.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The white pairs that give you splashes are splashes themselves, not recessive white. Sometimes pied birds are so pied that they are all white. Two recessive white birds will give you 100% recessive white offspring. White birds can also be homozygous grizzles (usually ash-red) in which they will normally have colored eyes rather than bull eyes.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The white pairs that give you splashes are splashes themselves, not recessive white. Sometimes pied birds are so pied that they are all white. Two recessive white birds will give you 100% recessive white offspring. White birds can also be homozygous grizzles (usually ash-red) in which they will normally have colored eyes rather than bull eyes.


I agree with Becky, but would just like to add a thought.

I have bred with some white homers myself, and I found that the three causes of white: pied (there seems to be more than one gene that causes pied markings, mostly recessive), recessive white and grizzle, all occurred in the white birds. This is because people bred any birds with a lot of white together, to get more white. This is mating scheme is especially true for pied birds, since many breeders claim that white seems to increase in successive generations.

Many white homers probably are recessive white, but they almost always have at least pied or grizzle hidden as well. 

I have still not been able to breed out all the recessive pied genes from my grizzle family. I have bred two beautiful ash-red homozygous grizzles which had only a few red feathers on the neck, but mostly they are bull eyed, because of these pied genes.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

rudolph,the Pied gene (Pi) is a dominant gene.I have been working on developing a long faced clean leg bearded tumbler. I have been crossing baldheads with selfs ,and I'm having problems getting rid or the white from the baldhead pattern.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There are more "white genes" than piebald though.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

White is a very complicated color.Because of the different genetic backgrounds of White we cannot accurately predict the outcome of matings with White.Matting a Black bird to a White bird it would be easy to say you are going to breed Black Splashes. But it all depends on what the White bird really is genetically.
Quinn (1971) suggests that there are at least 40 separately caused whites.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes. It's not like the "checkered chicken" example in all the biology books. Put a black and a white chicken together and get a pied/mottled/barred/whatever they choose to display it as. 
And of course that isn't the way it actually works in chickens either


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

That's what makes it so fascinating.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

copper said:


> rudolph,the Pied gene (Pi) is a dominant gene.I have been working on developing a long faced clean leg bearded tumbler. I have been crossing baldheads with selfs ,and I'm having problems getting rid or the white from the baldhead pattern.


Hi Copper,

I am aware that there are some dominant white pied genes as well. I use the word pied not in a genetic sense, but in the English dictionary sense, ie. "Decorated or colored in blotches". Birds that are partly colored and partly white.

My problem is that I have bred white pied (splash) young out of birds that do not show any white markings themselves. The pied I am laking about affects mostly the beak, head, neck, shoulders, flights and belly of the birds in question. Some birds only have a single white flight while others have all primaries white and a LOT of white on the other areas mentioned. This is why I assume there are some recessive (or at least incomplete dominant) pied genes out there, I have not done enough matings to be sure though, just an observation. As I mentioned, these splashes are almost exclusively bred out of members of a family of grizzles I have, so it is sometimes difficult to be sure whether there is any pied marking on the already grizzled birds. 

That being said, the baldhead pattern is definitely dominant, as you stated, and I think there are white-flight and white-tail mutations that are dominant as well, maybe even linked to the baldhead. If I remember correctly it is symbolized as Bh.

An example of a known recessive pied mutation is the Gazzi pattern of the Modena, and there are probably more. Pied markings are very difficult to separate (most breeds have more than one gene causing them) and as a result also very difficult to predict.


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

blongboy said:


> so from what i understand white is just a color that is covering another color right?
> black also right?
> 
> so can i get white if i breed a white to a black bird? is it possible?
> ...


what do you call that bird on the image in your post? i have a blue pigeon that has a wingshield same as that on the image in your post and i don't what color it is called and i only assume i call it bronze~ hope you could reply^^


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## Heedictator (May 19, 2011)

*White pigeon with black beak*

can somebody tell me what do you call white pigeons with black beak? i have a female one~ hope you guys reply^^


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Heedictator said:


> can somebody tell me what do you call white pigeons with black beak? i have a female one~ hope you guys reply^^


I have never actually seen pure white birds with dark beaks. Since most whites are either recessive white or ash-red homozygous grizzles. Both of which have light beaks.

If I had to guess I would guess that it could be some grizzle gene (homozygous tiger grizzle or white grizzle). Theoretically a blue het indigo homozygous grizzle could also be white ... but I have never seen or bred one of those. 

The only way for you to find out for sure would be to mate her to an unrelated blue cock and see what the babies look like. 

I wonder if anyone else has any ideas?


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/TMKFAGNKTGFXPVHPJDK
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/GBIGEYBGLAPGVIJTRJB
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/LQIHIVZBNWUYDDIIAVX
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/RGFFQEGOAMUXGIMEMHR
http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/18b_Constanta_2/DUWIUAXGEEIVTNTELKJ


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dimerro said:


> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/TMKFAGNKTGFXPVHPJDK
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/GBIGEYBGLAPGVIJTRJB
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/LQIHIVZBNWUYDDIIAVX
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/RGFFQEGOAMUXGIMEMHR
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/18b_Constanta_2/DUWIUAXGEEIVTNTELKJ


Hi Dina,

Thanks for the pictures. What do you call this breed? 

I still am unsure what the genetics are for these dark billed whites? Are they just extreme homozygous grizzles? Do they have white flights and white tails to cover the parts the grizzle wont cover? They look very similar to me to the stork marked Viennese tumblers I've seen except the storks still have dark wing and tail tips.

I assume they cannot be ash-reds, or they would have horn beaks. Looking at their cere it also looks like they are dirty. (Just like the viennese tumblers)


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

dimerro said:


> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/TMKFAGNKTGFXPVHPJDK
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/GBIGEYBGLAPGVIJTRJB
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/LQIHIVZBNWUYDDIIAVX
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_2/RGFFQEGOAMUXGIMEMHR
> http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/18b_Constanta_2/DUWIUAXGEEIVTNTELKJ


My whites do not have that dark cere around the eye either. Are they homing pigeons? That eye looks like pictures I have seen of white or light colored New York Flying Flights.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The first ones look a lot like Damascenes, which are bred to have dark skin. Only here in the US, we only have barred and the rare check. They have the Ice gene, which makes the bird look a very silvery light color, but underneath the feathers they are dark. Those birds don't look white - they look like something else with Ice. The neck just looks silvery to me.

Typically dark skinned/black beaked whites are homozygous blue grizzles, perhaps splashed and/or tiger grizzled too. Recessive whites shouldn't have dark beaks. Homozygous ash-red grizzles can have darker beaks if they are also dirty, but they shouldn't be solid black like blues are.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

rudolph.est said:


> Hi Dina,
> 
> Thanks for the pictures. What do you call this breed?
> 
> ...


Hi Rudolph,

They are Budapest highflyers and you're right, there are some pied genes in them.


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