# HELP something's wrong with Robbie!!!!



## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Robin just took off like a scalded cat and couldn't seem to find a place to land, then I found him on the bathroom floor squatting behind the door. I picked him up and now he's just *lying in my hand totally limp*. His *feet are stretched out behind him and he can hardly hold his head up*. When I touched his face he puffed his wings and stuck his tail up and opened his eyes for a second but other than that he's *totally unresponsive*!
This just happened all of a sudden what the hell is going on???
*SOMEBODY HELP US PLEASE, I AM SO SCARED!!!!*


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Are you sure Robin is a he?


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

not at all, if he's a she is she ok?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

How long have you had Robbie?
Any past medical issues diagnosed by a vet?
What meds do you have on hand?
Have there been any changes in feces over the past few days?
Is Robbie an indoor bird, do you have other birds?

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Does the tail appear to somewhat bob? Does it look as though the
bird is trying to go to pass droppings?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

About ten months, s/he's always been healthy, so I have no meds. Poops were fine up until this morning, i haven't seen one since this behaviour started. Robbie stays inside and has never been around other birds.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Poops smelly, loose?

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If he is a she, she may be getting ready to lay her first egg. My bird,Romey, [Romeo} had a hard time with the first two eggs. I too thought HE was going to die.
How old is Robin? Is Robin around any other birds?


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

the tail only bobs, like, once, not repetitively, and very infrequently. but i felt some flexing in the bum area when he was lying on my hand...


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

not smelly, but the last one was kinda wet like a baby poo


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, could Robbie have hit something when he "took off" - like a mirror or window. Did you hear a thump? If he did, the main thing to do is put him in his cage, in a dark to semi dark room and let him recover.

It could also be an egg issue. Sounds like he/she is about the right age. Could you describe what Robbie was doing and how he was acting just prior to this?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's good regarding the odor. If you have a heating pad and can set it on
low, covered w/a towel that would be good. As Charis mentioned could be an
egg coming through. Robbie could be 'sight bonded' with you and getting ready to lay an egg.

Can you crop medicate? One cc of olive oil down the throat can sometimes be helpful w/this.

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

He bolted upstairs so I didn't see when he went into the bathroom and the light was off so it would have been easy to hit the mirror, but i didn't hear it if he did... 

Right before he was sitting on top of the kitchen door, just chilling and napping, and then I went to offer him a drink of water like I always do and it seemed like I scared the crap out of him and he just started flying all crazy. He circled around his usual landing spots like the banister post and top of the fridge, but wouldn't touch down. Then he went upstairs and it just went quiet and he was hiding behind the bathroom door...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, as Maggie said, definitely put h/her in the cage to quiet down and make sure the room itself is warm.

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Ok, should i put the heating pad in there or just put him in his bed? And should I still give him the olive oil? I don't know if it makes a difference but a minute ago he started breathing heavily for a second then flicked his tail like he does when he poops, but nothing came out.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, IMO, I believe he may have hit something and may be stunned. It sounds as if he was ok until he got "spooked" - something they can easily do.

Keep him very quiet, and as I mentioned, put him in his cage in a mostly dark room but check on him often. Since he is such a pet, he may also benefit from your just holding him in your lap in a quiet area.

Please keep us posted. Robbie is family, you know.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Ok, well I'm sitting in the dark with him on my lap so I guess we'll just stay put for now... I'll let you know if anything develops, thanks everybody.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It really does sound as though there could be an egg wanting to come out.
Warm room in addition to some direct relief from a heating pad would be good.

I don't know if you crop medicate w/syringe or not and hate to stress the bird
if you've never done before and this may just be the first time kind of thing.

Do you have any calcium on hand? If so, what dosage and format?

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, the olive oil won't hurt so I would give him some just in case it is an egg. Please keep a close eye on the breathing. You may need to get him to a vet ASAP if that keeps up.

You can put the heating pad under his cage/bed and cover the cage on three sides with towels to keep in the warmth.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

I have the heating pad under him/her on my lap, he's not touching it cos i'm holding him but it's warm. 

I haven't medicated since he's been grown up but when he was a tiny baby I had to feed him like that for the first couple of days, so it might freak him out a little but I don't think it'd hurt him or anything...

I don't have calcium, what format is the best? I live really close to many stores so I could have it in a few minutes if you tell me to go get some.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

ok I gave him some olive oil... i'm gonna stay with him to watch his breathing. it's so scary seeing him like this.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Calcium W/magnesium in a pill format or liquid may be the easiest for you as you'd have to break it into a fractional part to give to Robbie. I'm assuming that Robbie gets D3 in the diet, correct?

The calcium should help w/the muscles and contractions if this is the issue and
if as Maggie suggests wouldn't hurt there either. In fact some Vit C would be helpful for sprain/strain if this is the issue. 

Does Robbie's back look somewhat like a lobster back?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

i just lifted him off of towel and there's a little spot of yellowy poop (or something) that smells kinda like pee... that's just new though because when i first found him the first thing i did was take off his diaper, and all the poop in there was fine and definitely not stinky.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

He has a multi vitamin that has D3, I can run out right now for calcium.

I'm not sure what you mean by lobster back?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lobster back....hmm....just a look that is sometimes apparent when an egg is
present and trying to pass through. Think of how a New England lobster tail looks like and the ruffling of the feathers and arching of the birds body in this 
area looks pretty similar.

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

well the back is shaped normally, he's just lying flat, but now the whole bum and tail area is kind of pulsing/flexing rhythmically.

I bought calcium-magnesium powdered mix and pills, and some liquid vitamin d for babies and some vitamin c. the powder would be easiest to administer if that's okay to give him, for people you use 1 or 2 tsp per 1/2 cup of water, so should i mix it to that strength then just give a little bit?

He's def more alert now, eyes are open and head isn't as lazy but bum is getting active and tail is moving more.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you think she is ready to lay an egg, then she will benefit from the heating pad.
But if you suspect head injury, heat is absolutely contraindicated in head trauma. Before you put her on heat check her pupils on both sides. 
The olive oil, calcium and magnesium won't hurt though.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, How are his legs doing - can he now stand?


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

What am I looking for in the pupils?

His legs are back under him but he hasn't stood up. He started flying again for a second though, and wouldn't land, i put my hand under his belly while he was hovering and just kinda picked him up out of the air. he didn't seem to know where to go.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> well the back is shaped normally, he's just lying flat, but now the whole bum and tail area is kind of pulsing/flexing rhythmically.
> 
> I bought calcium-magnesium powdered mix and pills, and some liquid vitamin d for babies and some vitamin c. the powder would be easiest to administer if that's okay to give him, for people you use 1 or 2 tsp per 1/2 cup of water, so should i mix it to that strength then just give a little bit?
> 
> He's def more alert now, eyes are open and head isn't as lazy but bum is getting active and tail is moving more.


Stephie, this does sound a bit like an egg situation. Treesa normally advises a quarter of the human dose....anyone jump in here.

Think you'll have to figure out which end is the problem end.

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Sorry i just want to be sure... would that be a quarter of the dose at the same strength? Like, if i mix up a half cup should I put a tsp or 1/4 tsp?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> What am I looking for in the pupils?
> 
> His legs are back under him but he hasn't stood up. He started flying again for a second though, and wouldn't land, i put my hand under his belly while he was hovering and just kinda picked him up out of the air. he didn't seem to know where to go.



Can't speak for Reti but I'm thinking that perhaps if the pupils were different
in size.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> Sorry i just want to be sure... would that be a quarter of the dose at the same strength? Like, if i mix up a half cup should I put a tsp or 1/4 tsp?


I see, a range....Does this calcium tell you how many mg's are in one teaspoon?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

They look to be the same, i didn't see anything unusual about them, except that the eyes aren't open very long. he looks all lazy and tired again.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> I see, a range....Does this calcium tell you how many mg's are in one teaspoon?
> 
> fp


300 mg calcium and 150 mg magnesium


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> They look to be the same, i didn't see anything unusual about them, except that the eyes aren't open very long. he looks all lazy and tired again.


Do they appear larger in size than normal considering the lighting?

Are either of the pupils non-reactive when passing a penlight over them?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Tried the penlight, they both seem to contract, although not as much as when he's in attack mode, but they definitely reacted


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

stephie said:


> Ok, should i put the heating pad in there or just put him in his bed? And should I still give him the olive oil? I don't know if it makes a difference but a minute ago he started breathing heavily for a second then flicked his tail like he does when he poops, but nothing came out.


Yes, put him/her on a heating pad set on low, with towel between bird and pad, and a few drops of olive oil won't hurt, but will help if it is an egg issue.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Stephie, here's a link on eggbinding, not sure that this is what you have, but
the contracting/pulsing sounds like an egg issue:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9262&page=2

I have a general avian dosage for Calcium Gluconate from Agnes Rupley's Manual of Avian Practice so if anyone else wants to jump in this would be great.

That dose for po supplementation is 1ml/30ml of drinking water

or.....

For supplementation/egg binding is 5-10mg/kg every 12h as needed. Maintain
hydration. (This dosage is listed as IM--Intramuscular).


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Can't speak for Reti but I'm thinking that perhaps if the pupils were different
> in size.
> 
> fp



Yes, this is what you're looking for.

Reti


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Thanks I read that link. So if it is an egg problem, should I give a warm bath? Or would it be best to just go to the vet asap? I got a bit of the calcium down, but the second time I touched her face she put her wings out and tail up and reared up like a horse, so should I just leave her alone or keep trying for more?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If you have the option to take her to an avian vet it would be great. He would know if she is eggbound.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> Thanks I read that link. So if it is an egg problem, should I give a warm bath? Or would it be best to just go to the vet asap? I got a bit of the calcium down, but the second time I touched her face she put her wings out and tail up and reared up like a horse, so should I just leave her alone or keep trying for more?



How many milligrams of calcium have you given do you think?

Would your vet see you today and do you have confidence in your vet?

fp

PS- Here's a link on head injuries from a human standpoint:

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/emrgncywarsurg/Chp15HeadInjuries.pdf

You have to give PDF files a chance to load, also, the symptoms are a bit further into the document so scan 'til you get there. Essentially the issues that have been raised about the eyes/pupils.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

The vet is closed on weekends, and the local emergency clinic doesn't have an avian vet. I'm on hold right now trying to find out if the next-closest avian vet will see him today, it's not an emerg clinic so they're booked up, but let's hope they'll squeeze us in...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, if you can, go ahead and get Robbie to a vet. That way, if it is an egg problem, they can help - if he hit something they can give him a steroid shot which could help. 

I wouldn't let him fly any more until this is resolved.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

nope, they told me to go to guelph, which will take at least a couple of hours to get to... do you think that long of a car ride is a good idea, or at least is it worth it? or should I see how things progress? and should I give a warm bath?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> nope, they told me to go to guelph, which will take at least a couple of hours to get to... do you think that long of a car ride is a good idea, or at least is it worth it? or should I see how things progress? and should I give a warm bath?



I hate giving a warm bath as once out Robbie could get chilled. I'd rather
you do something along the lines of what Daryl did in terms of a wrapped hot pack to the area if you won't be going to the vet.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Don't suppose you've actually palpated the area and looked closely to see if 
you see an egg trying to push out?

Has there been any more yellowy fluid?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

i don't see anything trying to come out, but i don't see much of anything... i haven't seen any more yellow stuff either, what do you think it was?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll just step in here a minute to say that Unie's grandmother, Frosty, recently had an episode of leg paralysis due to the laying of an egg. She didn't get over it until days after the second egg passed but it happened at the event of the first egg. I tried feeling her abdomen to see if there was another egg in there and couldn't really determine it even when I had a pretty good idea that there should be one.

However, if you're going to try, the keel comes to a point at the bottom centerline of the bird with a couple of notches in the ribcage on either side that allow fingers to be pressed in on the sides. The Pubis bones stick out backwards towards the tail feathers and are close to the top side of the bird and help confuse things when feeling around back there. Any hardness under them and that can be felt between the notches in the ribcage on the side is a bit suspect. If you've got another healthy bird for comparison, that's usually real helpful.

Pidgey


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2007)

I just want to interject something about heating pads. If a hen is egg bound, the last thing they need is dry heat. To try and get a hen to lay an egg is to put her into humidity and for most people, that means putting her into the bathroom and turning on the hot water for a couple of hours.

It sounds like she may have broken an egg during her panic flight and yolk is coming out but not the shell.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, if it is an egg issue, try putting Robbie in a small room - ie, bathroom, laundry room and boil a pan of water and place that in the room with him, a foot or two from the cage, and partially close the door to the room. Keep replacing the boiling water as it cools. Try this for a couple of hours.

Our vet recommended this when our cockatiel (Molly) had a problem passing an egg. The water will also help with the warmth. You still need to keep the cage covered on 3 sides to lock in warmth/moisture. She also told me to set up a lamp to provide more warmth but I think if you keep the heating pad under her cage that should be enough.


Pigeonperson - great minds, etc.......


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

ok there's more yellow gunk now...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess it begs the question as to what that yellow stuff looked like: egg yolk or something a lot lighter in color? If you took a sample of it and heated it in a pan, it'll either dry down or it'll look like scrambled egg. Do you have enough to do that with?

Pidgey


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

there's not enough, and it 's whiter than a chicken's egg yolk, kind of like mustard mixed with mayonaise. the last splotch had a tiny bit of poop in it too


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Daryl's technique:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=61492&postcount=13
ie., moist heating pads, and the other general link Motherlodes used steam.

I've had yellow fluid come from my hens on just your everyday egglaying. Not
saying this is what yours is Stephie, but would not be out of the norm. Did you try to lubricate the area?

fp-


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> there's not enough, and it 's whiter than a chicken's egg yolk, kind of like mustard mixed with mayonaise. the last splotch had a tiny bit of poop in it too



This is a pretty good description of a pre-egg poo.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What color is the actual poop? Dark green or light green?

Pidgey


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

i haven't tried yet, but i will now that my mom's here to hold her still while i try... should i just lubricate, like, the whole area? or rather, the hole area? i can't see much of anything with all those pouffy feathers...


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

and the poop is light green compared to usual, there's just a tiny spot of it. it was the first poop since this all started though


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> ......just lubricate...... the hole ....?


There, you just answered it, be very gentle and careful.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> and the poop is light green compared to usual, there's just a tiny spot of it. it was the first poop since this all started though


Still no odors?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

yeah it does smell now, kind of like pee


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's what you were saying before. How's Robbie's demeanor now after a bit of time has elapsed? BTW, did you notice Robbie, well for want of better description, kind of like 'scratching' with feet on the ground underneath body
as if trying to get traction?

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Still very low, her head is hanging down when unsupported. I didn't see the scratching for traction today, but she's done that a few times in the last week or so. a few days ago she did it on my hand and kinda started humping me, and once while lying between my feet. but not today


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's typical when trying to lay an egg, so it sounds as though Robbie is a sight bonded female. The head hanging low is not part of this scenario when
things are going well, however. This concerns me and I'm wondering if it may
be worth your while to take that trip. 

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Ok i'm just waiting for them to call me back, if they can take him today (and they better be able to since none of the other "emergency" clinics can) i'll leave straight away.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

stephie said:


> Ok i'm just waiting for them to call me back, if they can take him today (and they better be able to since none of the other "emergency" clinics can) i'll leave straight away.


Stephie, I'd just feel so much better about having Robbie looked at. My recent
trip to the vets w/Diesel cost me a half a day in terms of the drive and visit, but it was well worth it.

I just don't like the sound of the drooping head. Maybe she did also hit her
head and is feeling punk, but maybe there's and egg that has failed to pass.
Best to cover all bases.

Please let us know how it all goes.

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

They said they'll see her, but they doubt that i'll be able to bring her home tonight. He also said that she might not make the trip. It's our only shot right now though. Should I try to give her water or some more olive oil or calcium before we leave, or just go asap?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Go, asap, is your Mom driving? Hope everything goes well and they can help
Robbie.

fp


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Yeah mom and dad are giving us a lift... thanks so much for your help, wish us luck!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You betcha! Hope everything turns out fine for Robbie today. When
you get back and everything is all sorted out, you can start in w/nutrition that
reflects the needs of an egg laying gal.  

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, everything is crossed and my prayers will be with you and Robbie.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Stephie, 

I'm so sorry to hear about Robbie's situation today. I hope everything will be alright with him and that they find out what's wrong at the Guelph hospital.

Besides the fact that he took off in a panic, wouldn't land and ended up on the bathroom floor...were there any other indicators of anything amiss leading up to this this morning? You said his poops were fine in the flight suit pouch earlier. How was his behaviour earlier and yesterday? Was there any indication that Robbie was going to lay such as seeking a nook to lay in or collecting or trying to collect nesting material? What about eating, cooing and activity levels up until today?

I think he injured himself somehow upstairs and in the dark bathroom. It just seems too coincidental that there would be an egg all of a sudden and the possibility that it broke inside him/her....but who's to say for sure.

If you need any help, suggestions or want to talk, you have my cell #.

Best of luck with your dear Robbie and I hope it's something relatively minor.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Well I'm home, Robbie had to stay overnight at the hospital. The vet didn't know what the problem is yet, but he couldn't feel an egg either. They're going to do a radiograph (gram?) to make sure, and some blood work to check for some other things.

Because both legs were wonky (not paralyzed but def not strong) he said it could be something like lead poisoning, although it's more common for parrots and birds that tend to chew, it's not impossible, so they were going to start meds for that first just in case. Other than that, all I know is that Robbie's in a temperature and humidity controlled incubator and that someone will be checking in at least once an hour, and the doctor lives five minutes away in case of emergency. 

I felt heartsick leaving cos it's a really long way from home, but the vet seemed genuinely concerned and really nice... although when I said goodbye and they started towards the other door, Robbie sat straight up and looked at me as if to say "Come on Mom, we're going this way now, why are you just standing there?" I'll admit it took _quite_ a bit of self control to not just snatch the basket out of the vet's hands and run away with my baby.

They're supposed to call me in the morning (or before if anything changes) so I'll keep you all posted. Thank you so much for all of your help everybody. Your prayers, well-wishes and advice are appreciated more than I can express.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Stephie,

I'm glad they seemed so attentive to Robbie's needs and that the doctor
lives 5 minutes from there in case of an emergency. This sounds reassuring and
I hope they find out what is bothering Robbie and get a handle on it.

I'm sure he was freaked to see you going in the 'wrong' direction, but you
did the right thing. You and Robbie are in my thoughts and prayers.

fp


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Stephie, I'm so sorry to hear that something is wrong with your pijjie. I'll keep Robbie in my prayers that they find out whats wrong and that he gets better real soon.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Stephie,
I am sorry that Robin isn't feeling well & wanted you to know that I am praying for your baby.
My heart related to your feelings at the vet. If they would have allowed it, I would have stayed at the hospital with my dog.
I pray that Robin will be fine & back home with you soon.

Phyll


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, will send COMFORTING THOUGHTS for Robbie's safe return and a diagnosis!

We will definitely be watching and waiting with you!

HUGS TOO!


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

Beautiful (my MP) and I, hope Robbie's safely home soon.
We're sending healing thoughts and prayers, your way.
Hang in there .
-hilly


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

I just got off the phone with the vet. He said Robbie is acting better this morning, looking alert and using his legs, but he's still not eating on his own so they want him to stay another night. 

Last night when they took blood he just kept bleeding, and the vet said that could indicate liver disease. He gave him a vitamin k shot and is giving another today so they can try to get more blood, and he's doing a radiograph of the liver also. He said hopefully I can come get Robin tomorrow afternoon, it depends how the tests today and tomorrow morning go.

They said they'll call me tomorrow morning again, but I have a feeling I'll be calling at least a few times before that to check in with him, so I'll let you know as soon as I hear any news. It sounds like he's feeling a bit better, so I'm glad about that at least.

Again, thank you all so much for your thoughts and prayers, hopefully Robbie will be back soon and he can thank you himself, too. I've got a lot of faith in him--after all, he spent over 14 hours hungry & alone in the cold when he was only a few days old and bounced back like a champ, he's a pretty tough little birdy.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Stephie, again, I'm so glad you got Robbie to the vets yesterday and so glad there has been improvement. Did the vet find any sign of head injury or egg problems?

I know you spoke of Robbie going into 'traction' mode and I've never seen a male do this but you also spoke of Robbie doing the Humpty-Dumpty so to speak and I've never seen a female do that  .

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, the suspense is killing me! I sure wish the vet could have more definitive news but at least the news so far is not bad. I worried about Robin off and on even during the night. Thank you so much for keeping us posted on this. Maybe the vet could do a test while Robin is there to sex him.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Stephie,

I'm glad to hear Robbie is doing better today, I sure hope this health "issue" is diagnosed and resolved.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is great he is feeling better.
Hope they can get to he bottom of this. 

Reti


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

_Poops were fine up until this morning, i haven't seen one since this behaviour started. Robbie stays inside and has never been around other birds._
This definately sounds like she is egg bound or if she hit something hard enough could have a problem with the pelvic girdle (trauma) what does this sound like to you others out there?

Cindy


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Stephie, I'm so glad to hear that Robbie is feeling better today.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Stephie, I was so happy to read that Robin is doing better, thank God.
Hopefully, your baby will be home very soon.

Phyll


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

stephie said:


> Last night when they took blood he just kept bleeding, and the *vet said that could indicate liver disease.* He gave him a vitamin k shot and is giving another today so they can try to get more blood, and he's doing a radiograph of the liver also. He said hopefully I can come get Robin tomorrow afternoon, it depends how the tests today and tomorrow morning go.


That was why I was asking about the color of what should be the darker portion of the poop. If it's lighter, it could be a problem with the pancreas, liver or both. Yellow colored urates are also not a good thing although we were having a difficult time figuring out whether that was from egg yolks or urates. Metronidazole is often good for treating liver diseases.

Pidgey


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Hi everyone, I just got another update... fortunately Robbie still seems to be feeling somewhat better and staying alert, unfortunately they still don't have anything conclusive to tell me and would like one more overnight. The lab was closed all weekend so later this morning they should have some more results back. On the plus side, the vitamin k seems to be helping cos when they took blood this morning it coagulated well, and the vet said that Robbie started poking at the seeds a bit, although not eating enough to stop crop feeding yet. 

The radiograph showed no sign of an egg or foreign body... but I started wondering later, if an egg shell didn't form properly would it still show up on a radiograph? Does anyone know how those work? I just got afraid that if it could only detect a rigid form and the shell was too soft/thin that maybe they wouldn't find it...

But assuming there was no egg and no yolk, the poop was definitely too yellow and light green, so it might be a liver (or pancreas as Pidgey said) problem after all... hopefully they'll figure it out today.

I did ask them about sexing Robin, they said they'll save some blood for that, but they think she's a she based on what they've seen... but like fp said, s/he does "traction" mode and the humpty-dumpty so maybe they just haven't witnessed the full spectrum yet... the funniest part is s/he does the squat for man hands and humps girl hands and def knows which is which, so whether male or female, Robbie ...um, swings both ways  

I'm supposed to hear news by 5 or 6 tonight so I'll let you know as soon as I know anything. Thanks again everyone, I know all your prayers and healing thoughts are helping Robbie, and your support and kindness are _really_ helping me, too. I don't know what we'd do without you guys, big love all around!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> but like fp said, s/he does "traction" mode and the humpty-dumpty so maybe they just haven't witnessed the full spectrum yet...


I once watched as Chubby Checker (definitely male) and Speckie (indubitably female) mated.

After Chubby had done his thing he crouched down and Speckie got on his back and did the humpty dumpty.

Last week another male mated with Chubby who, incidentally, has won the hearts of three hens (it would have been 4 if we hadn't lost poor Speckie.)

 

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, the minimonkies would tell me that Persphone & Prospero 
would take turns in different 'roles' w/one another and this is definitely
a brother/sister combo.....at least until their last rescue Paloma showed
up and stole Prospero's heart.

fp


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Until Romey made a toilet paper nest in the bathroom and laid an egg I thought she was a he, Romeo. Her amorous actions toward me were extreme,humping my hand, knee and chin if given the oportunity. She also became quite good at THE song and dance. 
Her first egg and second caused symptoms that sound so much like Robbie's symptoms. Vit. K shot helped alot. I was so distraught and terrified I would lose her.
I'm thinking of you, Robbie and sending prayer and healing thoughts.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

Well, the good news is Robbie is doing well and gets to come home today!! 

The not-so-good news is that they never did figure out what the heck happened... The blood work that came back indicated that his liver's ok, so the vet said it could have been some kind of vitamin deficiency. It seems weird that it could cause him to feel poorly so suddenly, but maybe it was building up to that for a long time?

When I go pick him up today I'm bringing along the info from his multivitamins to show the vet, maybe I should be giving more of it, or more often... the instructions say to use 5ml per litre of water, I've just been putting a drop or two in his little water cup so I don't know how much of it he actually drinks. Is there a better way to give vitamins? Like, are there some he can just take undiluted with a dropper or something so I can control the amount?

At my work they have a mouse problem in the garage downstairs, my mom thinks that maybe Robbie somehow found a bit of Warfarin  It's certainly not likely that any would make it into the office upstairs, but it's not impossible, and it would explain the blood thinning. I guess they can't test for it, the vet said if that had happened all they could do is give vitamin k anyways. 

It just makes me sick to even think about the possibility of it. Not only cos of Robbie but they also have a little jack russell that loves to sniff around down there and they really shouldn't be using that awful crap  I think Robin will be staying in his cage at work from now on, just to be safe. 

But hurray for homecoming! I'm so so so excited to have my little pumpkin back!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's really good news.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad your little pumpkin is doing well. If it is a vitamin deficiency make sure to give proper dose and find a pigeon multi that you can disburse in the water with good instructions, look for a good one that is recommended. Alot of them are from Holland/Belgium so you have to ask the supplier what the dose is when translated.

Alfalfa tablets are an excellent source of Vitamin K, you can give one of those once a week, the dose is 1/4th of a human serving. It is best to give a natural source of vitamin K. Also, you can provide a natural source for B complext by giving him a little bit of Brewers Yeast along with probiotics.

Also, you might add some probiotics anyway, to his diet to ensure he is absorbing everything.

I would also hesitate to let him out of his cage without supervision, as that mouse bait may just be a possiblity of the whole problem, also.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so glad he recovered.
You're right vitamin deficiencies don't show up all of a sudden, the symptoms come on progressively.
As for the warfarin, that would explain the bleeding.
I guess we will never know what happened.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is very good news!!! But I am sorry for the poor little mice, that is a terrible way to die.



Cynthia


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Stephie, What great news. I'm so glad Robbie is coming home and doing really great .


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

*Reunited and it feels so good...*

Sorry I didn't get a chance to come online last night, but thought I'd pop in to let you all know Robbie is back! And eating like a hungry hungry hippo!  I'm thrilled, and Robbie seems pretty happy to be back together with me, too!

We're at work so I don't have too much time now but I'll be back later on today with all the details I have... and (if I can impose upon you all again  ) to ask your advice and opinions on what the doctor told me... as a quick example, he made a funny face when I mentioned probiotics and said they're not for birds. Now, I'm sure he's a smart man and he seems to be good at his job, but I'm also sure that a lot of you have way more experience with pigeons than he does, so I don't want to assume he's right about everything without consulting our own panel of experts 

Thanks so much everyone, talk to you soon!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Even the avian veterinary books advocate the use of avian probiotics. They can come in especially handy when certain antibiotics are used as well as when certain diseases hit the intestines and cause enteritis. They sometimes eat the bad ones as well as protecting the mucosa. Their protection is pretty much limited to the GI--they're of no real use with a systemic infection unless it's coming from the GI on an ongoing basis.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I can't understand the vet saying that, they certainly help establish good gut bacteria, which not only helps crowd out the bad ones, but helps to better absorb and assimilate nutrients needed for healing with any problem.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, I am sooooooo happy that Robbie is back home and doing well. I am still inclined to think he may have hit something when he panicked.

Our "best" vet was initially resistant to using probiotics but now endorses them. I wouldn't be without them. We use Benebac and Probios.


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## Hillybean (Oct 30, 2005)

Wow, that's so GREAT!

Beautiful and I, are so happy Robbie is back home with you and doing well.

-hilly


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## Rooster2312 (Mar 8, 2006)

Hi Stephie,

Just logged on after being away from PT for a while again and your post is the first I have read. I am soooo glad to hear that Robin is ok!!  What a frightening experience for you and poor Robin.

Did the vet do a DNA sexing test?

Lindi


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