# Puffy Pigeon



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Hello again. 

I've spotted a pigeon that stands apart from the flock. It looks puffy and doesn't move much, it just stands there. When the flock eats, it stood on the side. It stands in the corner (I can't reach it currently) and remained there even when the flock left. I put food as close to it as I could, but it doesn't seem interested and just continues to stand there. It doesn't have any yellow fluid around the mouth and doesn't look like it's thirsty and as far as I could see it doesn't have any growths in or around the beak. I'm worried. Any idea what is wrong with it? I'll try to catch it if I can but it probably won't happen until tomorrow. As I write this (it's sunset), the bird left on its own and flew away. Hopefully it's ok, and I'll continue to monitor it tomorrow if it gets back. I'll stock up on carton boxes again to make cage just in case.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Definitely something is wrong with him. Try to catch him. You don't always see canker on the outside, sometimes it's only in the throat and the only way to check will be with a flashlight deep down in the throat.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I'm trying to think ahead here: Let's say I catch it and it doesn't have canker. What should I look for that would give us an indication about what is wrong with it? Unfortunately, a vet is not an option, no one treats birds around here.


----------



## MattZ (Oct 8, 2018)

*helpful insight link?*

this has been a helpful resource as of late... and maybe the other posters are right... he looks a bit bothered possibly in his mouth or crop... a tight lipped bird not showing interest in food is unusual... I hope you can catch him/her... and give a closer assessment 


http://www.birds911.com/-pigeons--doves.html


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

When our beloved Phoebe was ill, she stood like that. She had internal xanthomatosis. I would imagine that posture is a signal that something is wrong. Hope you can catch him and see what is wrong.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Its so difficult, most of our more experienced members have left this site. I've only dealt with a few diseases in the past, so can't always give advice.

First try catching it. Then check deep inside the throat for canker, also check for yeast (small whitish spots in back of the throat. 

Also post a photo of the droppings. Can you get hold of Baytril if you need to?


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I woke up at 2 a.m. on a hunch and looked outside. I turned the flashlight of my phone and found the bird standing at the same place as before. It must have come back later that evening. I still couldn't catch it, it was too far away and I still don't have where to put it, but based on where it was I can post this picture of its droppings, which don't look good. His neck\crop looks bloated\inflated.

I don't know if I can get Baytril - should I get 5% or 10%? How do I administer it (it's a solution, I think)?

Currently I have Flagyl (Metro) in 250mg tablets and Amoxicillin in 500mg capsules.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Plse try and catch him. Might also be canker and you have the meds for that.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Marina B said:


> Plse try and catch him. Might also be canker and you have the meds for that.


He currently isn't there but I think he'll come back soon enough. I still lack materials to build a cage but shops open soon and I'll just go and buy one. Should I get the 5% or 10% Baytril?

Recommended dimensions for the cage (I'm thinking along the lines of a dog carrier)?


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

First just find out where you can get the baytril if necessary. He won't need a large cage, something maybe 40 cm x 40 cm will be fine. A large opening will be good cause you will need to take him out to give the meds.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Marina B said:


> First just find out where you can get the baytril if necessary. He won't need a large cage, something maybe 40 cm x 40 cm will be fine. A large opening will be good cause you will need to take him out to give the meds.


I'm guessing the Baytril can be had only via prescription so I'll have to ask my family doctor, which is why need to know the dose strength in advance. Shops will be open soon so I'll try to get it without a prescription and see what happens. I think it only comes as an injectable solution so I'm not sure how to administer it to the bird if I catch it (put it in the drinking water?).

EDIT: from what I see on the website, I'll need the 10% Baytril and put it in the drinking water. 10 mg enrofloxacin/kg body weight per day. 
https://www.baytril.com/en/farm-animals/product/oral/


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

*Update:*

I bought a cage. It's pretty huge (91x56x63 cm), but thankfully I can fold it once it's no longer needed and it will give any pigeon plenty of room.

Getting Baytril may be a problem, pharmacies don't have it and getting anything with Enrofloxacin may prove difficult because it's not that common in pharmacies. I may be able to get SYVAQUINOL which should be the same as Baytril (enrofloxacin 10% oral solution) but I can't say at the moment (http://www.syva.es/pdfs/p_2010-12-13_1292237329.pdf). 

Will any product that comes as enrofloxacin 10% oral solution be good enough?

The pigeon isn't back yet so we'll see what happens. I'm going outside to look for it in case it ran out of strength and is on the ground.

Update: It came back but I wasn't able to catch it. I spent a few hours lurking but it always got away. The sun has set now, but I made a place for it to stay outside and I'll check periodically during the evening and night and see if it comes back like it did yesterday night. If it uses the spot I made for it I might be able to catch it. Also, I don't like calling animals 'it'; I'll say him or her from now on.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi John,

if you catch him, immediately check his mouth/throat with a flashlight and pay attention to any bad smell. Do you see any yellowish or whitish growths or material?

When my pigeon Caterina (the baby's mum) got yeasts she looked passive, she had a whitish material down in her throat (it looked like a "creamy" substance), she had a really bad smell, her throat/neck looked swollen and she had great difficulties in swallowing

I treated her with nystatin 100.000 Ul/ml. I also applied a disinfectant (you can use Betadine 10% or Éosine 2 %). 

Here you can find many information about yeasts :

https://www.beautyofbirds.com/candida.html

https://www.petcoach.co/article/candidiasis-in-birds-signs-treatment-and-prevention-of-yeas/

Concerning canker, you have to consider that it is not always visible in the mouth/throat. 

Also pay attention to any bad smell coming from his poop. 

Any difficulty in breathing? Do you see mucus or too much saliva inside his mouth? 

Does the mouth look pale? 

Do you notice any swollen joint in wings or legs/foot? 

This is an article about medicines:

http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html


Btw I have Baytril 2,5% oral solution.
I put it in drinking water.
I know that it exists enrofloxacin in tablet form (see the pic) but I don't know the dosage for pigeons (I used it for my beloved cat Kira). Anyway, I suppose that getting it from pharmacies would be in any case a problem for you... 

Could you get there doxycycline? 

These are some helpful websites about diseases :

https://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/


http://www.chevita.com/


https://www.northstardoves.com/pages/pigeon-diseases


Anyway, the first thing is catching him, then start to check what we suggested.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Thank you Colombina, I will try to get these medicines in one form or another. I did not notice any swollen limbs, only his neck\crop looks bloated at times in a noticeable way, I think it might even be visible in some of the pictures. I did see him drink today, but not excessively. He also tried to eat and went for the smallest seeds, but he didn't try very hard--he would drop the seed and wouldn't try again to eat it and overall did not exert much energy in trying to eat even though he did so several times during the day. He looked lethargic and disinterested. He also moves slowly (other than when I try to catch him).


----------



## MattZ (Oct 8, 2018)

*By cover of darkness*

Not to make you out for a stalker or put you in any danger, but their eye sight is lessened very much at night. If you happen to know where he's at you can make efforts to catch him that way in the evening. Problem is resorting to trickery could get him out in the open if he leaves your pursuit to the outdoors, which will leave him easily susceptible to predators.

I really hope you can get him, and as I'd been admonished by authors of various other posts... "If he's ill, and YOU don't catch him" someone or something else eventually will. So... if you gotta do that pigeon press, may as well try.

I used to be very fearful that I'd injure a pigeon when catching. It's become much easier since. All the best of luck and thanks for your continued efforts. Hoping for the best.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes, the swollen neck is visible in some pics, it made me think about Caterina.

Anyway, I hope you can catch him.
When you will catch him, we all try to understand what is wrong.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

*Bird is Caught*

I managed to catch the bird. 

It doesn't smell. I looked down its throat and didn't see anything in it, other than perhaps a small white dot deep inside but I can't be sure if it's anything. No growths obstructing air flow or swallowing food as far as I can see. I wish I could take a picture but I can't hold its mouth open and take the picture at the same time on my own. Still, I couldn't see anything noticeable. No droppings yet (just caught it) but from what I can see it left outside he left this (it's a small dropping):


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

A small white dot in the back of the throat can be a sign of yeast infection. Might not seem serious to us, but for a bird that has to swallow hard seeds, it might causes problems eating.

Can you get hold of Nystatin from a pharmacy? He will need 30 000 units per 100 gr birdweight twice a day. Works best on an empty crop, but if he is starving just give him the meds and put down small seeds for him. Also put apple cider vinegar in the drinking water.

Lets first treat for the yeast and see if there's an improvement in a couple of days.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Thank you Marina, I will do that. I hope I can get it but it will take me a few days to get Nystatin.

EDIT: well, that went better than I thought--I got the Nystatin. It is 100,000 IU/ml, and the dropper has a marker for 1ml and 0.5ml. I don't have a way to weigh the bird. Will an assumption of 350 grams do? Even at an estimation of 300 grams, it'll be about 1ml.

EDIT #2: I'm reading the link MattZ provided, and the bird's symptoms seem very similar to the description of Coccidiosis: 

"Symptoms of Cocci:
Symptoms of Coccidiosis include little or no desire to eat or drink. Pigeons with Coccidiosis will remain puffed up on perches, and they lack any desire to move, often closing their eyes. Droppings are usually very loose, greenish in color, and may become very watery. Weight loss is another symptom, and death can occur in young birds."
http://www.birds911.com/-pigeons--doves.html

I've seen him standing in the food bowl and there was some food (a few corn kernels) in the water next to it (and a small poop). I can't say for sure but I think it is eating. I'll continue to put ACV in the water. Here is a fresh dropping that he left in his cage:


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Just to update:

Checked on the bird first thing in the morning. I opened its beak again to have a look and could definitely see some white growths in there, for whatever reason I didn't notice them yesterday. There are still not a lot of them, but now it is more noticeable. I gave it its first dose of Nystatin (slightly under 1ml). I'm also in the process of trying to get some doxy (to have for other future problems with other birds, just in case), and some Amprolium.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

The white growths (probably yesterday they weren't there) added to the swollen neck and to the small dot could really make think about yeasts.

The first time I looked inside Caterina's beak (I got alarmed because I noticed she was passive/lethargic, stayed isolated from others pigeons and her ex husband left her alone) I saw, as I said, a big amount of a whitish material down in her throat. 
The first dosage of the treatment was administered by the vet. A few days later, all that creamy material was no longer visible in the throat but she still had down, on the "sides" of her throat, some "patches/plaques" .

Anyway, in my case I treated her (adult, female) for 10 days with 0,5 ml nystatin twice a day on empty crop (so totally 1 ml daily).
I also applied topically (for a longer period, I don't remember exactly for how many days) a disinfectant.

If you can read French you can read here about Éosine (here you can find it in any supermarket). 

http://www.colombophiliefr.com/maladies/muguet.htm

You can apply Éosine or Betadine. 

Caterina had great difficulties in swallowing so I had to give the nystatin in a really slow way, I also had to hand feed her (I gave her bird formula by syringe) really really slowly.... Be sure that your pigeon is able to swallow seeds.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I forgot... I don't have a great experience with coccidiosis so I just want to say (as you are looking for medications for your emergency kit) that the vet gave me Baycox 25 mg/ml. 

You could also look for a product similar to this one: Oxycox (I'm sorry but the link is in French) 

https://www.animalis.com/animalis-aliment-oxycox-contre-les-coccidies-pour-basse-cour-100ml.html

it's a natural supplement containing garlic and others plants like thyme, tanacetum vulgaris, echinacea purpurea, triganella faenum graecum other than manganese and zinc. It provides a protection from parasitic infestation of coccidies. It protects the digestive system and helps to regulate the transit. 
You could monthly add it to the drinking water on your balcony.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I came back from work and was ready to give the bird the second dose of the nystatin but when I opened his mouth I saw a corn kernel in there and it was not all the way down and I couldn't take it out either. So I wasn't able to give it the second dose today, and hopefully by tomorrow the kernel will be swallowed (plus, he just ate so I couldn't give him the medicine because it is supposed to be given on an empty crop). But at least I know it eats something (a lot of food was spilled around the feeder too). I'm still not comfortable though. I think I'll have to feed it myself tomorrow.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I'm afraid I am not able to help this bird. I want it to have a shot at recovery but I don't know what I'm doing and I can't gamble with its life. I managed to track down an animal rehabber who is willing to help. I hope the bird will still be okay tomorrow. If he is, I will take him to the rehabber. I made sure she won't put it down unless the bird is beyond help and in a lot of pain. She is a private person so she is under no obligation to euthanize pigeons and helps animals voluntarily, and believes all animals deserve to live. She will give this bird a much better chance than I can. If the bird is recovered I'll take it back and set it free with its former flock--hopefully we'll get there.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's great news, I'm sure you are also relieved. Let us know what was wrong with him. You might need this lady's help in the future again, a good contact to have.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

Marina B said:


> That's great news, I'm sure you are also relieved. Let us know what was wrong with him. You might need this lady's help in the future again, a good contact to have.


I am not relieved. I've been extremely stressed ever since I've seen this bird in this condition. I've been shirking all work duties I can so I could monitor the bird, while still being unable to help due to my lack of knowledge and experience in taking care of birds. The bird is all I think about. After I couldn't help the previous bird, I can't handle losing another and I'm praying the bird will be able to recover and that I can get it the help it needs in time and that it's not too late. I'll only be relieved if\when it will survive and I set it free again.

This lady lives in another city and it isn't easy to get the bird there but it is good to know this lady and I hope she could perhaps teach me some things that will help me help other birds in need in the future.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I thought the pigeon was already with her, sorry! Just keep on with what you are doing now. As long as he is eating, he is not in immediate danger of dying. When you take the pigeon to her, ask her if you can stay while she examines him. Tell her you want to learn, you will find more sick pigeons in the future. Also find out where she gets her meds from.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Have read that bubbles in poop suggests bacterial infection, such as clostridia.
https://mickaboo.org/sites/default/files/files/4q2010_newsletter_Poopology.pdf
Thank you for helping the bird. Can you ask a vet to do a gram stain on a sample of poop?


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm really really sorry to hear that you are under tremendous stress...I am praying too that he will recover soon. 

Please keep us updated.


----------



## Friend John (Jun 10, 2018)

I'm sorry to say that I was informed today that the pigeon had died on Sunday. I made the trip and gave her to the rehabber on Friday and they told me they gave her antibiotics and hand-fed her. Their initial diagnosis is that the bird had a tear in its air sack or crop but they couldn't be sure. I was really hoping for a different outcome but I did everything I could. Thank you all again for all your help.


----------



## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm really really sorry.

A big hug.


----------



## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear he did not survive. Thanks for caring so much for them and always willing to help them.


----------

