# What size hole for a spudnik



## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

What size hole do pigeons really need to get through the trap. I am interested in the smallest size hole people had in their pen. I have a commercial built spudnik and the problem is if I leave the door open for the birds to return so does a cooper and goes right in the pen. I have caught him in there several times eating birds and he can get out of the trap very fast when I come in the pen. My thought is if I put anouther bar accross the opening he won't be able to get in but the pigeons will. There is also a possability that he will get in and not be able to get out. I would not know what to do then trying to catch a wild hawk might not be a safe thing to do. I bet if he got caught in the pen and I had to get him out it would be the last time he would be in there.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Hi Ohio... sorry, but I cannot answer your question... but I did want to post here because I've always wondered what a "spudnik" trap really was.  From the pictures of them I've seen, I still don't get it... I understand Bod Traps... that's what I have... but not Spudnik's.   

Anyway, good luck... I don't think Mr Cooper's would fair as well with me if I discovered it in my loft...


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi, I can tell you the measurement of the gaps between the dowelling on my sputnik - 4 and 1/4 inches. I think that you could go a little less than this.

ZigZag - I'll post you a photo of my sputnik maybe it will help you to understand. 









The birds land on the ledge at the front and then simply drop through the gaps. They cannot get back out as they would have to spread their wings to fly up through the gap. The front will open so that you can release the birds.


'Poo


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

ah... I see... duh, that makes sense... I guess I had never seen one on a loft.

Do you have something that flips up and covers where the birds drop through so you can close it up so a cat or hawk cannot get in while you're gone?


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Yes, there is a perspex cover that clips on for when I'm not around.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ohiogsp said:


> What size hole do pigeons really need to get through the trap. I am interested in the smallest size hole people had in their pen. I have a commercial built spudnik and the problem is if I leave the door open for the birds to return so does a cooper and goes right in the pen. I have caught him in there several times eating birds and he can get out of the trap very fast when I come in the pen. My thought is if I put anouther bar accross the opening he won't be able to get in but the pigeons will. There is also a possability that he will get in and not be able to get out. I would not know what to do then trying to catch a wild hawk might not be a safe thing to do. I bet if he got caught in the pen and I had to get him out it would be the last time he would be in there.


I would think that if a pigeon could get through it, so can a hawk. Hawks really are not as big as they look. They are mostly feathers, so I don't know that you could make a small enough hole to keep a hawk out, unless you make it really difficult for a pigeon to get through also.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Lovebirds, I think you might be right. The cooper is tall but not very big around. Here is the one I have. 

http://www.globalpigeon.com/productimages/fullimg/IMG1124272822.jpg

The problen is the cooper is so tall that he can get right out. If I ever build one it would be taller from the landing to the bottom. This would prevent the hawk getting out. I am sure this would only happen one time then the hawk would not go in again.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Do not leave the trap open no more then needed to get your birds in. Then have a door or something you can cover it with. that way you use it only when you have them out.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ohiosp,



I have never had an arrangement like yours, but it is very nice...!


I think that your Birds would adjust to the bars being brought closer together gradually, untill the bars are about 4 or 4-1/2 inches apart. Then, they will simply jump down through them as usual without ever really noticing or careing that they are closer than they used to be...but, I think, make the change gradually with plenty of practice for them with each small decrease in space.


I know some of my Birds (orphan babys, raised indoors in a cluttered series of rooms and halls, thence socialized to the feral others and released) would readily fly through such 'wide' ( seven or eight inch say, ) spaces on ooccasion, if those spaced were vertical.

If one raise Mocking Birds with young Pigeons, the Mockers will chase the Pigeons and it is like World War One 'Dog Fights' of Bi-Planes...of course the Birds do not 'fight' in any way, but merely, the Mockers love to chase others, and, the young Pigeons enjoy it as a game of fun...

With this, the Pigeons get very very good at tight quarters aerobatics, and if there are openings to fly through where they need to fold their wings in flight to do it, they will. Or similarly, they learn to fly down narrow halls with but few inches between flying Wing tips and walls, and, to turn corners in such halls to enter other doors...

They would not do so for a 4 inch opening of course, but a six or seven inch one, they might...but to simply walk or hop down through an opening of 4 inches or so, even to turn their shoulders a little to get through, they would do...so long as their shoulders will fit, they would do it once they know they can...

I have seen some Sparrows so good at this kind of thing, they would fly straight through a Cyclone Fence, folding their Wings at just the right moment to sail through and resume flapping.


Now 'that' kind oif mansuver would sure give old Mr. Hawk one headache if he was hot on their Tail...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> I would think that if a pigeon could get through it, so can a hawk. Hawks really are not as big as they look. They are mostly feathers, so I don't know that you could make a small enough hole to keep a hawk out, unless you make it really difficult for a pigeon to get through also.



Hi Lovebirds,


From what I hear this seems to be so.

The Hawks are very bright and clever as well as bold, and there are storys of them comeing into grade school classrooms through a window, attacking a Canary or Cockatiel who on that day was brought to school, and the kids and everyone in a panic and so on.

So the question seems to resolve on...

What kind of opening or arrangement of openings, can a Pigeon learn to enter through, which a Hawk would be confused by or impeded by more for psychological or Natural History reasons, then on account of size or width of body per-se...?


I do see small Falcons or Kestrals here, and the Sparrows particularly are wary of them...but I have never seen evidence of any Pigeon harmed by them...even though I have seen Pigeons land quickly when one is in the air nearby...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You know what..........hawks have been after our pigeons for ages........and especially our race birds. If there was a sure fired way to keep them out of the loft, you can bet that some one would have invented it by now and they would get my money!!! LOL. We've had hawks hit out loft when we were only 3 feet away. We've never had one go in our loft, but my traps are locked if I'm not outside watching my birds. I do wonder about this though.........looking at the sputnick, even though the bird "traps", the bird is still visible to the hawk, where as, bob traps, once the bird enters the loft, it's not as "visible" to the hawk, it sort of disappears. Know what I mean? I'm not saying that a hawk won't go through bobs, because I've heard of them doing it. I'm just saying, that if you look at our traps in our big loft, once a bird goes through there, the hawk would actually have to walk into that tunnel and look inside to see a bird. Where as in the sput nick, the pigeon is in sort of a "cage" and the hawk can still see it and "want" to get to it. Anyway, it's all speculation. Let's face it, if "Mr. Hawk" is hungry enough, he'll do just about anything and go just about any where if he thinks he can fill his tummy...........


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

I do close the trap after all my birds are back the problem is the hawk chases my birds and they fly away. Sometimes it is hours before they come back. So I have to leave it open for them to return. This cooper is extremely bold and I can be out in the back yard (about 100 yard away) and he will still go in there. I am sure he can see me and knows where I am but I don't know where he is or see him get in there.

Lovebirds, I think you are right about the watching of these birds in the spudnik. When I have the trap door closed on this pen he loves to set in the tree or on the pen watching the birds in there. There is no way he could get these guys with the trap closed but countless times when I go over there he is setting and watching the coop.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Get The Hose Out ..*

I have a Coopers (female) who visits my backyard every 10 days or so .. she is a brazen bird .. totally fearless .. until the hose comes out .. I blast her with the jet stream, and she goes away for another 7-10 days. She is also fearless .. I can walk right up to her, and she will stare me down .. that was until the hose .. now she knows that the hose means business and that she is not welcome here.

In my yard, I can tell when she's around because all the sparrows and small birds quit chirping and take cover in the shrubs .. the pigeons and doves also go totally silent .. if I look closely, I can always find her and blast her with the hose.

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Anyway, good luck... I don't think Mr Cooper's would fair as well with me if I discovered it in my loft...


 Hello Zig, 

Somewhat of a dichotomy is it not ? A pigeon fancier on one hand, who is able to appreciate that the Cooper lives to eat pigeons....and the self described "activist", when faced with the creature who ate his pigeon, would do the Cooper harm. Somewhat of a pragmatic experience, wouldn't you think ? I guess if I would be in a similar situation, I would be a little more humble about it, if y'all know what I mean..but that is me.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> I have a Coopers (female) who visits my backyard every 10 days or so .. she is a brazen bird .. totally fearless .. until the hose comes out .. I blast her with the jet stream, and she goes away for another 7-10 days. She is also fearless .. I can walk right up to her, and she will stare me down .. that was until the hose .. now she knows that the hose means business and that she is not welcome here.
> 
> In my yard, I can tell when she's around because all the sparrows and small birds quit chirping and take cover in the shrubs .. the pigeons and doves also go totally silent .. if I look closely, I can always find her and blast her with the hose.
> 
> Terry




Lol...


I think there are some pretty high power 'Squirt Guns' one can get, which would equal or out-distance the reach of a Garden Hose' stream...might be handy to keep close by...


I will try looking sometime on 'google', see if I can find some...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Lovebirds, you are on to something. After looking at that photo I can see what a hawk might see. From a lofty perch an open cage full of well fed pigeons looks just like an easy meal. Even if you have to fly in to get one.

One guy I knew told me about when he had chickens who used to suffer terribly as they were protected only with a roof of chicken wire, and a small coop where the birds would sleep at night. When the hawks flew over the chickens would try to evade him, in their panic, flying up into the wire and getting their heads caught in it. The hawk would apparently eat the heads and all you would find later was a decapitated bird. I never saw it myself but have no doubt the story was true. 

It is upsetting to lose birds for any reason but when they are home supposedly safe and sound all the more so. I wonder how the system I saw in the photo might be modified so that the pigeons would not be visible from the air or from a tree. In this way they would have the first advantage of being in a sheltered and protected environment and not looking like easy pickings to the ever present hawks. Maybe the top barred openings that are now running the full length of the coop could be limited to only half or a third of the length and a covering (blind) or roof be put over the remainder. In that way the pigeons might enjoy some level of security on thier home turf.

Cameron


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## tatts (Nov 9, 2005)

*bob trap*

have you considered the bob trap system,I use it and between the bobs i've plased a piece of plywood,this the birds can not escape and their preditors can not get in even cats won't attemt it.if you need any more information on this system I would gladly provide it ,and the cost is minimal
tatts


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Bob traps if not closed after the birds a back in the loft. The old cooper can still get in the loft. There have been several lofts that This has happened at. Now stall traps I have not heard about the cooper getting through. But never know. Its best any knid of trap You close it after you fly the birds. But if you are not home or are inside while flying the birds A cooper could sneak in the loft. Best method on coopers is Training the birds to fly and trap when called back in to feed. Sittting birds get hit easyer. Then be sure to close the trap. Because even a cat or something else can get in.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Camrron said:


> It is upsetting to lose birds for any reason but when they are home supposedly safe and sound all the more so. I wonder how the system I saw in the photo might be modified so that the pigeons would not be visible from the air or from a tree. In this way they would have the first advantage of being in a sheltered and protected environment and not looking like easy pickings to the ever present hawks. Maybe the top barred openings that are now running the full length of the coop could be limited to only half or a third of the length and a covering (blind) or roof be put over the remainder. In that way the pigeons might enjoy some level of security on thier home turf.
> Cameron


I like the sputnik - it allows light in the loft, serves as an aviary, aids ventilation, allows the birds a view around the loft before they go out, they can sunbath in it and also I put the bath in there which saves the loft floor becoming awash.

I have no problem with hawks but, if (when) that does happen then I shall certainly consider covering the roof. As it is, any Sparrowhawk dropping from the sky would hit the glass roof and knock itself senseless!

'Poo


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