# Candida again.....i think



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hi everyone

I have noticed that one of my wild pigeons i watch seems to be looking strange for the last few days, her crop hangs low (as if it is very heavy and full of something) She won't eat much and seems very tired and drained...
I had two pigeons before that had the same symptoms and it seems that i think she has a crop yeast infection, the only problem is that i can't catch her(i will try tomorrow again) after catching her there isn't much time since i took my other 2 pigeons to the rehab and they put them on antibiotic(which Fred and Ray explained to me that it is not proper, they should have put them on an antifungal or something) and they both sadly died....









I have also heard i could get some Nystatin, BUT where do i get that from is it from a vet or a pharmacy or something??

Any help would be much appreciated to help this poor young bird.

Mary

P.S This pigeon(Honey is her name) Roosts on my balcony at night with another 10 pigeons, and i will need to think of a way to CATCH her!!



[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 23, 2002).]


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
There is not much to talk about unless you capture this bird. Is it dark enough outside at night to quietly go approach the pigeon and grab it with both hands very quickly? Pigeons are afraid of flying at night so if it is dark out, you may be able to do this.
We don't know what the problem is and can't easily and accurately diagnose it over the web. 
If this is candida (yeast), it has to be treated one way. If this is a sour crop, it has to be approached in another. There are so many other possibilities, who can really say right now?
See if you can capture this pigeon and then we can discuss it further.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I really couldn't capture the bird at night because i have 5 hens out there( 3 with eggs and 1 with small babies and if i scarred them the babies may have died...)
Anyway i will put a trap out today....

Mary

P.S i put 1tsp of PLAIN BLEACH/Gallon and filled up the water bowl outside so she can drink it....it may help alittle..


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Fred do you mean Candida and Sour Crop are different??

I thought they were the same anyway i will get some Acidified Copper Sulfate (for Sour Crop)
Will that also treat Candida?

Thanks

Mary

P.S didn't catch the pigeon yet and she seems much much sicker today....












[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 24, 2002).]


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I was checking at Siegel pigeons http://www.siegelpigeons.com 
About the sour crop products and i found this:

What should a fancier know about Sour Crop?

Sour Crop is also called Candida, or Thrush. It is a very common disease, caused by a fungal infection of the digestive tract. It’s often associated with excessive use of antibiotics.

Symptoms of Sour Crop include listlessness, loss of appetite, weight loss, a water-filled crop, and frequent vomiting. The vomit often has a very putrid odor. Sometimes in lesser cases, thrush will show itself as just small whitish spots in the throat, which can cause confusion with Canker. Another symptom, not often noticed, is feather pulling in adult birds. 

To prevent Sour Crop, avoid overcrowding, maintain a sanitary loft, and do not medicate indiscriminately, especially with antibiotics.

The medications that are available for Sour Crop is only the "Copper Sulfate" 
And i will try to order it soon!

Mary


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
The first thing I am going to say is that I could be wrong and if I am, somebody is going to set me straight on this but here goes:
Sour crop occurs when for whatever reason, the crop does not empty. This can cause bacterial buildup and a major crop infection including ulceration.
One of the significant symptoms is a large amount of acidic fluid building up. To try to save the bird, this fluid nust be gotten out and turning the bird face down and sqeezing out the liquid is called "Milking the crop." There is considerable risk involved with doing this as some of the liquid can go into the lungs. An antibiotic is vitally necessary in this situation.
Yeast infection, as far as I know is something different. We all have yeast cells in our systems. The immunity system and good gut bacteria keep them in check. If anything happens to throw off this balance, the yeast cells grow to infection level. The toxins produced by the yeast can freeze the crop function. When a bird throws up, the first thing to be considered is yeast as a cause. One of the anti- fungals like Nystatin is required. 
I believe that sour crop and candida are two different illnesses although it is easy to see how yeast could cause sour crop as a secondary bacterial infection. I know that many books combine the terms and use them interchangeably.
If I'm wrong here, I certainly hope other folks post to this thread.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Fred for explaining it all!!









I will try to catch her as soon as she comes to the balcony.. 

Mary


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
Here is a site that discusses sour crop. In reading through it, I get the impression that the term is generally used to describe any condition that freezes the crop, yeast being one of them and bacteria being another.
I also see that one of the symptoms of anything that causes it is liquid formation. If I'm reading it correctely, then the swollen crops you are seeing can't be diagnosed as definitely being yeast. I suppose that in the absence of a vet testing for what is wrong, it would be prudent to use both an anti-fungal and an antibiotic at the same time.
In giving younger pigeons an antibiotic when it was absolutely necessary, I asked my vet if I could combine it with an anti-fungal to prevent their sensitive systems to become open to yeast infection and he said that it was perfectly fine to do that. http://www.parrotsociety.org.au/vet/vet_05.html


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

There is a product at Siegel that is called Digestal-" This product contains helpful lactobacillus bacteria, which are essential to maintaining good digestion. Digestal replenishes these bacteria which are destroyed during medication. "

Is that a good product it was in the "Sour Crop section.


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
It's a probiotic. It helps to restabilize the digestive system after medications. I think it serves to add back the acidophulus(spelling?), good gut bacteria.
I'm sure all these products are good.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Ok, if i used an antibiotic and to prevent a crop yeast infection from developing later, i would use that digestal stuff??

Correct?


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Hi Mary,
It's confusing but anything that kills biological life forms is an antibiotic.
So, since a medicine like Nystatin kills yeast, it is an antibiotic. But yeast is a fungus and another type of antibiotic is needed to kill bacteria.
A probiotic is good after treating with anything.
Did you look at that site? I think it is pretty good.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes i did look at the site and i am starting to get worried since she might die(Poor pigeon)
tonight i WILL go out and try to catch her when it is dark.....i don't have any medications yet..


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

SHE IS FINALLY HERE ON MY BALCONY!!
she is sitting on a nesting box about 2 yard away from the window....if anyone has any techniques on how to catch her PLEASE post them here.... she is looking worse by the minute....










Your help would be MUCH appreciated!!


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

When I've caught pigeons I was concerned about, I found that sometimes I had to quickly drop a soft towel or cloth over them. It may sound unnerving for the bird, but when they are enclosed like that, the ones I caught tend not to struggle like they would if I just try picking them up 'barehanded' - it's only for a few seconds, anyway, until I get them into a high-sided cardboard box (though now I have a purpose-made pigeon carrier) for transport to the bird hospital.

John


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
I still feel that if you wait until dark and quietly go out and make a very fast, two hand grab for her, you may be successful without really panicking the other birds.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I will do that tonight and hopefully i can catch her, although i will have to go out the window since the door makes too much noise...

Thanks

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 24, 2002).]


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Mary,
This attempt may fail but please go through the door. You might hurt yourself using the window.
If it's dark, the pigeons will probably not fly.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

It's alright!









I am used to going through the window since i do it alot if there is a nest blocking the door....


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Well, just be careful.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

hello

I went out yesterday night and as soon as i stuck my head out the window the i sat on the window... they noticed me and all flew away...
She is not interested in food so i will have to think of something else..


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

You tried and that is more than a great many other people would do. You aren't going to be able to save all those that need the help and I'm not sure that this one can be gotten in time. 
If you're unable to get her, I know how badly that feels. I go through this all the time and never get used to it.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I didn't see her all day since last night, she roosts here with her 2 siblings so if she doesn't come tonight i don't think she will ever come.....If she returnes i will try again and hopefully i will be able to catch her.

Thanks for all the help!

Mary

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited June 25, 2002).]


----------



## Guest (Jun 25, 2002)

Mary,
Is there any way you could use a fishing net? Just an thought.
Russ.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks for trying to help









She didn't come back though....








It's also very hard for me to get close to her since i have soooooooo many other birds around and if i make one wrong move they all fly away including her.

Mary


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

SHE JUST CAME BACK TO ROOST!!!
It is still light outside..
I don't know what i will do yet but i am thinking of something.....









Mary


----------



## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Go Mary! Go Mary! Go Mary!
We are routing for you!
Can you hear us?

Julie


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Julie!!!









I really wish i can catch her...this is making me nuts!









I will keep trying though!


----------



## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Hi Mary,
Catch you bird at night, in the loft, when it is dark. Use a flash light.
Pigeons usually "freeze" and will not fly in the dark. Your setting birds will "freeze" and will be fine when you leave.
Regards,
Carl


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hi,

I don't have a loft!








My pigeons are free they are wild pigeons so i really can't get close to them, i tried a few nights ago and they all flew away in the dark some even hit them selves on the building








She doesn't come in the day anyway only at sunset to roost(she also hasn't been eating for 4 days)

Mary


----------

