# "Orbax" - Antibiotic - Any experience with it?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am takling care of a sick Pigeon for a friend who had to go out of town for a week or two.

The Hen was on 'Orbax' for a few weeks prior, because of an Acites and or fluid-infection issue which had been building up a long time, which a Vet had drained...and, was having very heavy, labored, rapid open Beak breathing issues the whole time.


In the several days the Hen and her Mate have been here, Mate seems to like the environ, Hen was feeling so poorly and glazed and crisis-breathing, she was not eating, and tube feeds were scarey to me with her being so close to a possible respiratory crisis.


My intuition was that the Hen was having a bad reaction to the 'Orbax', so, I discontinued it, and, now, on day three of enroflaxyn and Trimethoprim-Sulfaquinoxaline, she is nearly breathing normally and is showing interest in her surrounds again.


Anyone here have any experience with 'Orbax'?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil,

I've no experience with it, but I want to praise your good intuition and discontinuing the drug. I'm glad to hear she's doing much better on the baytril. 

Orbax is a new drug, and perhaps not so suited to pigeons, in the way panacur was eventually shown to be problematic for pigeons, but not other birds? Strange that she'd be ok with the Baytril but not the Orbax, which is from the same family of drugs. I wonder if she could be allergic to Orbax specifically?


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

_"What are the possible side effects of Orbax: Stop giving the medication and seek emergency veterinary medical attention if your pet experiences an *allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat;* swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives). Other less serious side effects may also occur. Continue to give the medication and talk to your veterinarian if your pet experiences loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, or drowsiness. Side effects other than those listed may occur. Talk to your veterinarian about any side effect that seems unusual or bothersome to your pet."_

http://www.1800petmeds.com/Orbax-prod10198.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_effects_of_fluoroquinolones

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?id=18948


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

She has a very widely dilated Throat, dark in coloer...to me, suggesting an esophagul infection or 'Sore Throat'.


Personally, I would be reaching for the Pennicilin right about now if it was my Bird.

I will see if we can go visit the Vet tomorrow, and I can discuss all this with him.


The Hen has a long, pre-existing Acites issue which I examined and my suspicion was that it was a fluid filled Abcess, quite a few weeks ago, when the Vets had called it an inoperable Tumor, so my friend went back, and, on re-examine, the Vet decided to do some experimental aspirations with a Needle, and was getting infected fluids...so he drained all that over a few sessions, and, the giant lump was then gone...

I just do not have enough experience with that sort of condition to feel confident about what ought to be done, since I do not have any mental model of it's aeteology. And, on top of that, I think she has a couple other issues going on, infection wise or locality wise.

At least her digestive system is working alright, thank goodness!



However, diet might help, since her original Acited sort of thing might be related to Liver issues.


But, she was on Doxycline for a while prior to my having her, and, did badly with it, had bad reactions...her meds were changed to the 'Orbax' and, there was no opinion as to how well or badly she was doing.

My opinion, is that she was not doing well with it.


Nothing is swollen as far as I can see....mouth or Throat wise, but, it may have been messing with her Respiratory System, and or, was not clearing up her Respiratory infection issues or Anemia, or whatever is causing the need to be making such labored breaths...Trachia is wildly dilated with no closes between Breaths, and, this is not good, of course. I am sure, even drinking some Water is iffy for her presently.


Possibly, Pennicillin would be a better choice...but, I will discuss this with the Vet tomorrow if I can get an appointment.


She has not been eating enough since being here, and, did not seem to have eaten much prior to being here, and so I have been giving Tube Feeds, just one measely 10 cc a day, and, with her breathing having been so laboored, I was afraid to even feed her with the Tube at all, but, figured I better, or she'd run out of steam.


She does seem better today, with the change of meds, but, I think there it room for improvement and re-evaluations of the whole thing, the entire regimen and meds.



Thanks you two!


Phil
Lv


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Orbax is Orbifloxacin, another fluoroquinolone, and I've used it before with no effects. Can't tell you, though, whether the symptoms you're describing are a reaction to the drug OR... just that the drug was ineffective for the bird's actual infection. Anytime you see things involving the guts (like ascites), you're stuck with worrying about anaerobic infections in the abdominal region and also necrosis. That said, the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination would likely have a lot more activity against those kinds of things than any fluoroquinolone, by and large. 

If memory serves, that is.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey!



I have a 3:30 at the Vets...they have her File, and, I will discuss the sore Throat and Breathing and Acites and whatever else, with the Vet.


I have seen this sort of Throat appearance before, and, it is associated in my mind with both an Esophagul infection and a Respiratory one, as those Pigeons having it have tended to have seriously gasping or labored Breathing, sometimes dieing during the initial exam after the breathing got more gasping form the added stress of being examined...so, I really do not like seeing this sort of Breathing, and I do not like seeing this sort of Sore Throat along with it.

I would like to know what the agent or organism or illness is, if possible, so, maybe ( since it is still present ) a Throat Swab and Culture could be done.




Usually I would reach for the Doxycycline, but with this Hen, report was she had reacted badly ( worse Breathing, ) when the Doxy was tried...so...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow Phil, She's really been through the rounds with meds. So she didn't like the doxycycline either? 

Because she's reacting badly to some antibiotics, which exacerbate thrush I believe, I wonder if she needs a more aggressive treatment for thrush to go along with her antibiotics? Could thrush cause the breathing problems/sore throat you have noticed?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Wow Phil, She's really been through the rounds with meds. So she didn't like the doxycycline either?
> 
> Because she's reacting badly to some antibiotics, which exacerbate thrush I believe, I wonder if she needs a more aggressive treatment for thrush to go along with her antibiotics? Could thrush cause the breathing problems/sore throat you have noticed?



Hi Bella, 



Good mentions...


I have not seen any signs of Thrush with her, and, her time on the Doxy was short, a few days only, some two Weeks prior to me having her here.


But, yes indeedy, it is something to watch out for when using any of the old Tetracycline related Antibiotics, as well as something to look out for with any situations where loss of Appetite, Crop troubles or privation have been occuring.


I am not aware of any particular associations being present, for Thrush ( Candida ) and deeply labored or 'gasping' kinds of open Beak Breathing, per se.

End stage or far developed illnesses, whatever they began as, can of course by then, end up being multiple illnesses, so, a bad enough Thrush would likely also mean other Bacterial or as may be illnesses having opportuned also, which could of course effect Breathing or be full blown Respiratory infections, Anemia or whatever else.


Vet visit went well and was productive!


Full report in a little while...



Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, having pulled-the-Plug on the whole 'Orbax' thing, and, her on the new Meds for two days now, her Breathing, at the Vets, being driven in the Car and Handled and stressed and so on, was hardly any worse or was not even as bad, as a usual Wild Pigeon would be doing under those conditions.

Three days ago, I am doubtful she would have survived the handling and car trip, that's how bad her breathing was at that time.


Anyway, Vet and I discussed her prior history, a large fluid Abcess of unknown origin ( no tests were done, but, it was drained in a series of procedures ) .

Too late now to do Cultures, or, I would have sprung for them to be done.

Vet approved of my switching Meds, and, I asked about adding Pennicillin or Clavamox, and, he lit up and said "Good idea!" So, I will do that.

Was a really good Visit, a really great Vet, and, we all had a good time, Miss 'Hip Hop' included, of course...or, if she did not have a good time, she managed it all so well one had to feel mighty happy about it anyway.


He had not heard of any Birds having a bad reaction to the 'Orbax', but, as he said, there's always a first time...so...


Fingers Crossed!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thats great news Phil; she's an amazing bird, and its so fortunate she has met you I'm glad the Vet worked out well and she was ok with all the handling.

What does the word `privation' mean? I have not seen that word before....you mentioned it can be a sign of thrush?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

sreeshs said:


> _"What are the possible side effects of Orbax: Stop giving the medication and seek emergency veterinary medical attention if your pet experiences an *allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat;* swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives). Other less serious side effects may also occur. Continue to give the medication and talk to your veterinarian if your pet experiences loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, or drowsiness. Side effects other than those listed may occur. Talk to your veterinarian about any side effect that seems unusual or bothersome to your pet."_
> 
> http://www.1800petmeds.com/Orbax-prod10198.html
> 
> ...



Thanks sreeshs!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Thats great news Phil; she's an amazing bird, and its so fortunate she has met you I'm glad the Vet worked out well and she was ok with all the handling.
> 
> What does the word `privation' mean? I have not seen that word before....you mentioned it can be a sign of thrush?




Hi Bella,



'Privation' is an old term for going without food and Water...


Birds grounded for any reason, often end up dehydrating and or starving, which will complicate their pre-existing conditions, and or occasion new conditions or illness/infection.


Anything which slows the Crop...can invite Thrush/Candida or other Yeast/Fungal/spoilage of Crop contents/infestation sorts of troubles.


Privation - where the Crop is empty for quite a few days or several days anyway at least, often precedes and supports conditions for Candida, or Canker, and, particularly in the very young...but casn happen in any age PIgeon or Dove.


Phil
L v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...so far, so good.

I added Amoxycillin to her reginem.

I believe - whatever else she has - that she has a very sore Throat and along with that, a Respiratory illess, or at least something effecting her Oxygenation or quality of Repiratory conditions anyway, which of course, the 'ORBAX' was not dealing with or ammending...and, being it is three days now with the Enroflaxyn and the Sulfas, I find her Trachia and Esophagus to both still be dilated and dark and dry-ish and to have signs of some sort of infection going on...small dark stringy matter, mottled, and overall inflamed and tender looking, so, we are now also doing Amoxycillin, and, we shall see how that works.


Might be the Respiratory and Esohpagul infection is most of her troubles at this point...hard to say.


I would have had Cultures done at the Vets, but, she had been on the various other meds already of course, and, that would mess up the prospects of a decent Culture being grown.


So...Fingers Crossed!


Still a lot better than she was anyway, but, I sure want to see this resolve and abate, whatever it is.




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... you know that if they get some amount of hemolytic anemia, it takes several days before their red blood cell count comes back up. That would explain a darkish coloring inside the beak and throat. Did you ever take respiration rates?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi PIdgey, 


Probably around 80...not especially fast respiration rate, but very wide, dilated Trachia, Throat itself is very wide and dilated and dark, Mouth is dark also.


Previously, at rest and not being disturbed, her whole Body would tilt with each Breath...but, last couple days, if looking at her from a few feet away, she appears about like a normal Pigeon far as how the Breathing looks, but, upon being examined, there is this seriously dilated Throat/Esophagus ( like you could have room to slide a little Finger down into it for 'wide' ) and wide open, non-closing between Breaths Trachia going on, and, if stressed, her Breathing becomes labored again.


What illess would you suspect to cause a Haemolytic Anemia? ( Which is to ask, of course, what Meds would you tend to reach for, if confronting signs or suggestions of it? ) 



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Their standard "idle" is between 30 and 35 breaths per minute. If they're basicaally lounging around and it's more than that, there's likely a problem. It'll involve the gas transfer in the lungs one way or another. It's either some kind of degradation of the actual gas transfer surface area within the actual lungs, some kind of anemia or some mass taking up space inside the thorax/abdomen. I may have missed something, but the first two are the real biggies. The third one only counts in a very few cases and would generally show enlargement of the abdominal area in the gross examination (you'd feel it pretty quickly if you were looking).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can start reading this thread at about post 209 although reviewing some of it up to that point is educational. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/medication-amounts-14465-6.html

Ongoing hemolytic anemia can cause a "coagulopathy", in which the body often cannot plug a whole because the coagulating system within the blood may cease to function. But anytime that there's barely enough red blood cells to carry the oxygen necessary even for lounging, you're just one anxious episode away from catastrophe.

Anyhow, in that specific case, it would have been better to go with Doxycycline.

Pidgey


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