# Regarding Chloramphenicol



## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

The drug is associated with random cases (one in 30,000 to one in 50,000 persons) of aplastic anaemia, a serious blood disorder for which there is no cure, and which is usually fatal. It is not known why some people contract this condition and others do not and when the condition may arise. It is not dose-related. In addition, there are concerns related to potential carcinogenicity and genotoxicity of the drug as well as the potential to cause antimicrobial resistance.

If you use it, make sure to wear thick and long plastic gloves. The drug has been banned in some countries. But still legal in the USA.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi NumberNine,

I don't know what you are referring to, not familiar with that. Would it be possible for you to explain a little more. What is it, what is it used for, etc.

Thanks,

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for bringing it up, NumberNine.
I used chloramphenicol once on one of my birds. She had a recurring eye infection and a culture showed Staphilococcus and enterococcus sensitive only to chloramphenicol. After three days of administering the drug, my bird was very sick, she wouldn't eat, she wouldn't move even and looked just awful. I discontinued the drug right away and gave an injection of vit B complex. She recovered eventually, but it took a while. I don't know what her side effects were, but I was fearing aplastic anemia.
The eye infection was cured with colloidal silver.
Certainly I will never use this drug again, or any other drug that can have such devastating side effects.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for the heads up on that drug, Reti & NumberNine. 

Seems to me they don't test drugs long enough, before they come out on the market, especially long term.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi NumberNine,
> 
> I don't know what you are referring to, not familiar with that. Would it be possible for you to explain a little more. What is it, what is it used for, etc.
> 
> ...



Chloramphenicol is a bacteriostatic. It is active against gram-negative, gram- positive cocci and bacilli, including anaerobes and also Rickettsia, Mycoplasma and Chlamydia.
It's indications are restricted to serious infections when other drugs are not as effective or are more toxic, because of it's dangerous side effects.

Hope it helps.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Does it have a "common" name - like Baytril or Itraconazole? maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Does it have a "common" name - like Baytril or Itraconazole? maggie



No, that's the only name I've heard of. 
It is not commonly used, just special cases.

Reti


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*I remember*

This drug to be used in dog kennels to cure Kennel Cough. Maybe about 15 years ago.


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

This drug is recommended for the treatment of Salmonellosis. Go to,

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html 

and look to the right. The second item from the top of the page is "Balance disorders". Next to "Balance disorders", the first item is "Salmonelossis". Click on it and scroll down that page.

Under "treatment", it says, "Upon appearance of the symptoms described, treatment with chloramphenicol-N should be started immediately".

It has been used to treat a variety of animals including horses and cows.

If your skin is exposed to chloramphenicol, either nothing will happen, or you will most likely die. The odds are 1/30,000 to 1/50,000 that you will die if you are in direct contact with that product.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Baytril works good on Salmonellosis, so I don't see any reason why to use Chloramphenicol.

Reti


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Me neither. I've been using Baytril for years to treat various ailments, but this is what this company is recommending.

Speaking of Salmonellosis, I have a bird right now on Baytril due to salmonellosis (still waiting for the analysis of the droppings...). Is there anything you can recommend? I've been giving it multivitamins (vitamins and minerals) in large quantity. 

Treatment on Baytril was started on Monday. 0.4cc twice a day.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Is the bird eating on its won or do you have to hand feed it?

You can also put a drop of apple cider in the birds water, and garlic capsule (one per day, soft gel, Now brand)

These things will aid in building the immune system as well as kill bad bacteria and fungus.


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Maybe I asked for help too soon. I might be fine now. If it doesn't vomit the few seeds it ate (1/2 hour ago), then I might have won the game.

The bird was brought to me on Monday. I strongly suspected Salmonellosis. I gave it Baytril and an overdose of vitamins and minerals. As well as added few drops of Apple Cider Vinegar (with mother) to its drinking water. 

It is an old trick of mine to overdose a bird when the bird is emaciated and the situation is desperate. I use Costco Kirkland's Formula Forte (30 essentials multivitamins plus minerals). I crush the pill to fine powder and mix it with water. In EXTREME cases, I divide it in 10 (very rare). In more moderate cases, but still urgent, I divide it in 15-20. As an added supplement, I divide it in 25-40. Nothing is perfect and the bird is seriously overdosed on vitamin E and seriously under in regards to vitamin B12, but I've had great results in the past. The other ingredients are relatively ok as far as overdose is concerned. I only do this for few days (1-6) when using an Extreme overdosed. When doing it for a few weeks (1-4 max), I can vary from Costco/10 to Costco/20 to Costco/40. Like I said, it has worked well for me. And one pigeon, which I still have after 5 years, has shown no sign whatsoever of damages due to a short period of vit/min overdosed. 

On Monday, it got Baytril, ACV and an overdose of vitamins/minerals (Costco/10). On Tuesday morning, the bird flew out of the box. I gave it Baytril, but forgot to give it vit/min. I flew out of town and when I came back at midnight on Tuesday, I still didn't remember about the vit/min. The bird only got the Baytril. And the pigeon kept going downhill. 

This morning I remembered about the vit/min and I'm working from home, so I gradually overdosed her on vit/min. Spread over five hours, I gave it vit/min three times. Totalling about four to five times the daily-recommended amount when used as supplement. Or maybe two to three times the normal daily amount it consumes on an average day. The bird was lifeless, still not eating. But about 1/2 hour ago and two hours after I finished overdosing her on vit/min, it started to change. It ate its first seeds since Monday.

Too bad I forgot to give her the vit/min on Tuesday. Thanks Treesa for your reply.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

NumberNine,

What kind of Baytril are you using? Is it a 10% solution and is the 0.4cc's undiluted? I'll tell you why I ask, I have the 10% solution and a normal dose for a lot of the underweight ferals that I get is actually 0.04cc dose. My vet gave me a special syringe that's really dinky to give it with. It's a 3/10ths cc syringe and I'm usually dosing around half of the first tenth, depending on the bird. The more normal 1cc syringes that I have just don't have the resolution to get there. I really need to get another one because the markings are almost rubbed off and I've gone to two closer vets and they didn't even know that such a small syringe existed but they weren't avian vets, either.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...the Baytril I use is added to their Water, so-much to a Gallon say, then I merely use that gallon jug for filling their Drinking Water.

Phil
las vegas


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Pidgey,

The Baytril I use is 10mg/ml. I believe the Baytril is mixed with grape juice (?). I give 0.4cc orally every 12 hours. Bird's weight is around 265 g. I use a Syringe-Terumo 1.0 cc disposable. It says "single use only" on the syringe. But I use it maybe fifty times before I need a new one. I get it from my doctor.

Something similar (if not identical) to this (without the needle, naturally...),

http://petsupplies4less.com/products.php?i=Syringe-Monoject+Luer,+1cc+TB


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, those are like my 1cc syringes and they're a lot bigger than that little syringe that I was talking about. Anyhow, I called my vet and he told me that Baytril comes in two liquid formulations that he knew about: The large animal which is a 10% by volume (or a 100mg/ml) and a 2.2% by volume (which would be a 22mg/ml). He said that the 10% is cheaper and all you gotta' do is dose it right. I looked in my ten-year-old formulary and it mentions a 22.7 mg/ml injectible liquid.

It's certainly possible that your Baytril could be cut even further and I would really dig to verify that information. I also called my supplier and got today's price for a 100cc bottle of the 10%--it's $65 + tax (which may not apply to an "over the border" sale). I've no idea whatsoever whether that's expensive or cheap. At the concentration that you're using, that would be the equivalent of 1000cc's or one full litre so you be the judge.

Here's the most comprehensive data sheet on the stuff that I could find (it's from Bayer) and it only mentions a 25mg/ml oral solution:

http://www.bayeranimal.com/pdf/label/Baytril.pdf

I'm still trying to find (internet) proof that the stuff that I have even exists. Okay, I got it--it's called Baytril 100. I called my other vet (didn't want to disturb the first one twice in one day) and asked why he had me use it orally when all the product literature only said "injectible" and the answer was that it "burns" when injected so they usually administered it orally on birds as, by their word, it can be used either way. 

I have heard and read that it tastes positively NASTY (mega-bitter) and that may be why the stuff that you were talking about is cut with a fruit juice. Come to think about it, I have read something about doing that very thing somewhere. My vet showed me how to stick the syringe a LONG way back in the throat and depress the plunger to shoot it on down, I guess so they wouldn't taste it.

Pidgey


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Pidgey,

in my previous post I wrote, "...I believe the Baytril is mixed with grape fruit". I meant to say (and edited my post), " I believe the Baytril is mixed with grape JUICE".


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

NumberNine,

Well, crud! And I was hoping that you had a cheaper source. I nearly gagged the last time I bought a bottle and they rung it up around $70. I could have sworn that the one I'd gotten a couple of years before was more like $15.

I researched the crap out of it today because I've always been worried that I've been giving it or dosing it wrong. I had always obeyed the instructions written on the bottle but that's for putting it in the waterers. Anyhow, looks like I've got it right (for the product I get) so I'm feeling calmer about it, now.

Well, I can vouch for the fact that they (pigeons) REALLY don't like getting it (the stuff I get) on their tongues. The local racers don't use a syringe to administer it like my vet taught me, they usually do it with a dropper and count the drops (1 to 2) and just drop it in the mouths so it's gets everywhere they've got taste buds. Poor birds.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Our vet will sometimes combine the Baytril with something called syrpetta (sp?) that is grape flavored. It smells better anyhow. A friend has recently been ordering this so we give it "straight". I nearly gag when we give it.  I have bottles that are the injectible kind but give it orally. I'll check my bottles tomorrow and see what I can find out about the cost. (They are in the bird's "bedroom" right now and I hope they're nighty-night by now.)  maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hmmmmm...

Just checked my Baytril - 

...it is the "10 %" kind...

From "Foys"...

Says also "8 cc to a Gallon of Water for cure...4 cc for prevention.."

Now, I did make some up a few days ago, for an injured Dove I have, and I tasted it just now to see how yucky it might be, and to tell the truth, it is a lot better tasting than the tap water...in fact, it is not bad at all...

So...

I dunno, maybe straight from the bottle it is bitter...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

I paid $18 at the vet. I have enough to treat this bird and there will probably be enough left to treat another bird for a few days (but not enough for the whole 10 days).

I get my metronidazole really cheap! I get a prescription from the doc and get 250mg tablets. I divide the tablet in 10 equal parts. Not mixed with water. Actual division of a small tablet in tiny amounts. IOW, treating a bird for canker cost me about 50 cents. It makes up for the $200-$300 this one will cost me. And all this for a bird that I will release. Got to be crazy to do things like that.

On a different topic: I believe that if the culture comes back positive for salmonellosis, even after the bird has made a full recovery, the bacterium can remain infective for more than a year. IOW, this bird should not be allowed to share living quarters and food with other birds. Otherwise, there is a possibility to transmit salmonellosis to non-vaccinated birds.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

NumberNine,

Well, that seems to be a far more difficult question to answer than you might think. That is to say that it may or may not and each case would be different. Salmonellosis can be limited to the intestines and under certain conditions, it can go off into the body to the joints, the nervous system, the eyes, etc. You can rid the body of the organism but not necessarily in the intestines and vice-versa, I guess. 

If you were really worried about your bird maintaining an intestinal colony of Salmonella after treatment then you may discuss the idea (with your vet) of sterilizing the gut with Gentamicin as it is not absorbed when taken orally. It can be given in such quantities that it can kill virtually everything in the gut and then the intestinal flora and fauna would need to be repopulated.

There might be a misconception about vaccinations, that they prevent the bird from getting or acquiring the bug. In fact, they only prevent the bird from DYING of it. A PMV vaccination (virus, different thing) only helps the bird to more quickly identify the PMV virus in the body and start creating antibodies against it far faster than it otherwise would.

In the case of a bacteria, it's often the endotoxins that they throw off that cause the bulk of the real problem. The design of the vaccine may be to acquaint the body's immune cells by various methods (depending on the vaccine) to combat the pathogen far more aggressively or to render the endotoxins ineffective. This webpage can illustrate both the complexity of the thinking behind the development of a vaccine as well as the "oops--that-didn't-work-the-way-I-thought" outcomes that sometimes occur:

http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/68/6/3344

But a vaccine cannot attack a colony in the gut that's living in the mucosa and is, therefore, beyond its reach. So any bird, vaccinated or not, can get the pathogen. You can have a completely vaccinated loft that's shedding the organism right and left.

What the book says is that massive doses of probiotics can be given to eventually consume the Salmonella in the gut over a few weeks time. The possible treatment utilizing Gentamycin above could possibly shorten that time to a more agreeable amount.

If you'll send me either another email address or confirm that the other one that you sent me for the bird with the hurt beak still works, I'll send you the pages discussing Salmonellosis out of the same book that I originally sent you the beak info.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> NumberNine,
> 
> Well, crud! And I was hoping that you had a cheaper source. I nearly gagged the last time I bought a bottle and they rung it up around $70. I could have sworn that the one I'd gotten a couple of years before was more like $15.
> 
> ...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

OK, just read your response Pidge, would you mind emailing me those pages as well, afterall, I do some extra chores for you sometimes.

Rosie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...we might look into the "Citromed" to see if it addresses the pesky Salmonella...

I do not recall if it does, but it, and it's cousin "Berimax' were reported to effect 100 percent absence of the Trichomoniasis, where, in contrast, the usual remedies effect only some decently high percentage...

One may 'google' Citromed and see if the literature is there.

One thing also, with the 'Berimax' and the 'Citromed' is that they are forgiveing in their dosages, while of course many other meds are not...

Now, Salmonella, we may recall, is a more or less chronic infestor or commercial Poultry, as well as of most feral Rodents...

How much of it, in terms of how many individual organisms any given Creature might tolerate without symptoms, I imagine will vary with the immunological vigor of the individual.

The organism - like most diminutive organisms - breeds enthusiastically in moist warmth...hence it's reputation for mischief in tepid Soups and Gravys and so on with careless Restaurants.

The excresences or excrements of the organism, if memory serve, are the toxins which poison the host...rather than that the organism per-se does anything remarkable or annoying.



Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Pidgey, 

Thank you so much for a first class answer. I printed your answer and the 15 pages at the link you provided. I only have a few hours left to rest before going to the vet at 7:30AM. I'll finish replying to you tomorrow.

Again, thanks a lot.


Thanks Phil, got to go!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> (Baytril)...tastes positively NASTY (mega-bitter)...Pidgey


If you have Baytril tablets, you can crush and mix with strained squash or applesauce. A jar of baby food applesauce is a nice small size for a few birds and you can follow the Baytril dose with a 'chaser' of straight applesauce to leave a good taste in their mouths.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Terri B,


Mmmmmm! Now you are making ME hungry...

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In retrospect, I should always get Phil to taste these things before I make a statement like that. However, I'm not certain that animals taste things quite the same as we do. There is also a big difference between two different Baytrils that I've had. There's the stuff that I've got now which is the 10% and another "short-course" 10% that my vet gave me (only enough to dose one bird) and it had a very disturbing scent that I didn't like at all. I suppose I could get another small sample to send to Phil...  

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

NumberNine,

By the way, I see that I left out a few words in that one post where it mentions using the Gentamicin (I originally misspelled it) to sterilize the gut. What I meant to say was "discuss the idea with your vet."

The other thing that should be pointed out is that human-use probiotics will work to clear the intestines of bad bugs in avian patients, but you have to use more as they're not "host adapted" to birds. I think the fact that a bird's body temperature is so much higher may play into that and it causes them (the probiotics) to have a somewhat-shortened lifespan.

If you're going to use Gentamicin to sterilize the gut, then you will need to use a source of true avian gut flora and fauna. I think Kaytee will supply that but there are also avian-specific products.

Pidgey


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

I just lost the battle. The bird died. It had lost 66g over the last three days. It weighted 195g this morning. The vit/min were able to provide the bird with a boost and make it want to fly, be alive, fight this disease and the Baytril managed to stop the inflammation of the intestines and allow the bird to eat food. But it was too late in the game. I thought the bird was using up it's fat reserves, but it was in fact using up its proteins (muscle tissue). I noticed yesterday that the bird had started making some funny movements with its neck.

I should have known better.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 

Gentacin or Gentamicin should probably be avoided for all and every Bird as well as everyone else, and is known to reliably ruin inner ear balance nerves and create other nasty damages in Birds AND in people.

"Misu" may also supply some orders of flaura/fauna for the Avian gut...

So...

What might we conjecture ir recall from experience, to be a regimen for suspected Salmonella then? IN summary...?

That way I can Print it out...!

Best wishes,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi NumberNine, 


I am sorry to hear of the Bird not making it...

I think I have lost a few to this over the years, but I had no way to know what it was that ailed them, nor the regimen...

We should stay on this topic I think, to distill or summerize what the steps and proceedures could be, to identify Salmonella illness in a Bird, and, to treat it.


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am sorry, NumberNine.
Sometimes they are too sick and there is nothing we can do anymore.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil, 

That applies to Gentamicin given parenterally (any method EXCEPT oral; i.e. shots). Gentamicin given orally can't get into the system at all. It stays in the guts and can cure enteritis due to bacterial infections.

Pidgey


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Thanks to all for the good words. I needed it today. It's not everyday that you lose a pretty rock dove.

I have a question: When the bird was brought to me on Monday, it had beautiful red/orange eyes. Yesterday, the day before it died, I noticed that both eyes had changed to a greyish/blueish color. Same colour today when it died.

I know that New Castle disease (PMV) can create the discoloration of an eye. But I don't have real life experience of it. 

Does anyone has an idea about this sudden change in eye color?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well,

According to the section on Salmonellosis, with high-dose infections, conjunctivitis, iridocyclitis and panophthalmia may occur. The middle one is one that affects the iris and the book didn't give it much of a description as it presents in the avian patient.

My other thought was an increasing lack of oxygen to those tissues. Just a thought.

Did you get those files I sent or do I need to resend to the other address?

Pidgey


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

Pics of the bird that didn't make it. Pics were taken with a webcan at 640X400 and then converted to a .pdf file. You need Adobe Acrobat on your PC in order to see the pics. The bird weighted 270g when those pics were taken.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Numbernine - that was a beautiful bird and I know you are heartbroken. I never noticed a change in eye color in the PMV's we had. I sure am sorry.

maggie


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## NumberNine (Jul 19, 2005)

The vet called me yesterday and told me the result of the culture shows salmonellosis. For all those who collect data on birds, now you can add the fact that if a bird has salmonellosis and you see both eyes change colour, then you'll know the bird doesn't have much time left.

And yes, Lady Tarheel, this one really hurts. Thanks for the good words.


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