# Slowly loosing a baby pigeon



## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

So this is more of asking for advice then asking for help with treatment...

So short story. Baby pigeon 14-15 days old attacked by cat with big neck wound. The man who found it send it to me, via bus, after 48h and it that time baby just got one meal of bread and cornflower.

Baby arrived very active begging for food. It was very very hot on touch but it came via bus in a luggage compartment. Poor poor thing.

So, as it is a cat bite I gave baby Tylosine (tetracycline) appropriate dose. Baby develops swelling of head. I notice the crop is slow. I asked the vet and he thinks it is because of the neck wound, proposes to continue Tylosine. day 2 next dose and swelling is huge. I rush the baby to the vet. vet said it is a reaction to Tylosine. Gives the baby Amoxiccilin with clavucon acid (sorry if I got this wrong) and 2 more meds for pain and swelling. Baby is becoming weak. Two days ago baby can not stand, crop is full of air. I give aple cider vinegar with some rehydration fluid, massage, put warm water bottle on crop... baby can not stand, shakes. crop feel full of air and some air iu building up under skin. I release the air under skin with a needle. baby is a bit better.
Yesterday baby is more and more weak, crop feels bloated. I rush the baby to the vet today and he tries to empty via needle but nothing comes out. So he empties the crop manually. A lot of undigested food, liquid, some white particles like spoiled milk, all comes out. It is important to note that baby is pooping normal all this time, just poops are few during the day.
I come back I give glucose, more rehydration fluid, and Metoclopramide and massage the crop. Then give very thinned formula via probe. 
crop is still slow. Baby can not stand and from now is unable to raise its neck, the head just hangs down when the baby is picked up.

From the time baby is attacked by a cat is 7 days, and it has been 4 days at my home. 4 days from active begging for food baby pigeon to baby barely alive, can not stand up or raise the head... from 206g on arrival has dropped to 150g now.

I don't now what to do. And the most heartbreaking is the neck, it happened before the emptying of the crop so I know it was not nerve damage during that. Also the crop was full but not to a degree that it was so tight to compress a nerve.

Anyone has any advice, what to do next?
Thank you.
PS sorry if my writing is bad, I am a non English speaker, I feel very exhausted with many sick birds on recovery around me and I am just constantly crying since yesterday.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How much amoxycillin are you giving? I always go by the ratio of 0.12mg of amoxy per gram birdweight. So with a weight of 206 g you will be giving 25mg of amoxy twice daily. Now he weighs 150 g, so will be 18mg of amoxy.

Can you get hold of baby applesauce without added sugar? Make his food 50% applesauce mix with 50% formula and feed little bits throughout the day. Keep him warm. His neck might be drooping due to weakness.

Hope he survives, hopefully you will get more advice from other members. Unfortunately one can't save all of them, this is always heartbreaking.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

The vet is giving the meds and I did not ask him. He is using a chart for birds this is what I know but I did not ask about the dose.

We don't have apple sauce in MOntenegro but I can make it. It is thinly sliced apples cooked with a bit of lemon juice right? So it becomes a mush.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Yes, but maybe you should leave the lemon juice. Only use apples.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

OK.
Thank you!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The Amoxy-Clav is what he should have been given to start with. May also have been too late on starting the meds. 
Marinas advice is good advice.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Yes day 3 is very late for cat bite, especially if the cat got pasturela.
I only had tylosine that was safe and usable for cat bites. I did not want to transport him any more that day, and it has proven to be a mistake.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You are doing all you can, he will either make it or not. Pray.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Sounds like you are doing everything you can. Hope he will make it. You gave him his very best chance.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

The baby has a bit more stenght but crop is very slow. Apple sauce I made I blended it up in to a very soft mush, like baby food, very silky. I was mixing it with thin formula. I also added 1ml of 0.5 glucose to some meals, just to help him recover the energy. But this did not improve the crop motility. The only thing that helps is the Metoclopramid which I give in the morning and in the evening. If I calculated correctly dose for him is 0.08 mg (0.5 mg per kg).

The problem is the baby has so little strenght that it can not swallow unles I pick him up, put him in a correct position and massage the crop. Then it swallows a bit. So I do this often. I massage very very softly. The thing is in one of his "gulps" it smelled a bit like stale food even thou he is emptying the crop completely before I give more food. It looks like there might be infection in the crop. I gave a bit ACV with water, just 2 drops in 1 ml of water, did a massage and food I give him has probiotics in it.

This morning I asked the vet to take some poop a look if there is any bacteria or fungus in it. So I am waiting for that result. 

So... waiting for that :/ Any advice on the bacteria in the crop?


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

For some reason baby pigeon neck is twisted on the right side, it is quite stiff but can be straighten up. If I straight position he is not happy and wiggles and tries to put the neck back in the crooked position.

Poop tests came up negative with no bacteria, fungus or parasites.

Any ideas why this is happening? Can it be due to lack of something?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Maybe he is doing that because of the wound in his neck. I wont bother with that now, rather concentrate on getting him stronger by making sure he gets enough food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The vet needs to check a swab of the crop contents.
Can you post a picture of him?


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

This is going to be hard to watch, as he is very limp and very weak.

So this is the twisted neck:









This is the wound on the neck, it has completely closed by now and it is just a one dot. It healed very well.










And if I let the head go - I did this just for 10 sec to make the pic, this is how the head hangs.










I will check the vet for this. The problem is my country and my vets, he does not know how to do a crop swab :/


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I can not see the pictures so I am sending the links again 

https://ibb.co/dykEX8
https://ibb.co/cHrXKo
https://ibb.co/gnpmeo


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

I suggest that you do not overdo this. As the saying goes, yesterday I recovered from my illness, today I died from my doctor.
For future information, not all antibiotics are the same. In order to work properly you must first have some idea of the nature or identity of the infecting organism. Cat bites usually carry Pasteurella multocida, a vicious gram negative organism. To you that means that a penicillin will do it but it is worthless unless it can penetrate to the infection site. You should be able to find topical penicillin ointments and salves at the pharmacy. Continue with the Amoxycillin as well and be careful about the dose. The dose must be proportional to the body weight of the bird or you will kill it by overdose. Look at online avian formularies for dosages and times.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Grimlady, the antibiotics are administered and dosed by the vet. The vet uses one of the charts for birds I got him, that has doses divided by genus of birds.
I asked the vet last time and he told me he gives 14 mg via injection. 

Thank you for your advice I actually understand what you said very well. I gave him Klometol to increase the motility of the crop. For him the dose was 0.08mg but he was very sleepy on day 3rd. The vet said it is probably because he can not get rid of the medication properly because he is so weak, so it is building up in the body.

It is very problematic to do anything.

Also thank you for the info about local antibiotics also needed. I did not know this put I did put a local antibiotic just for the fear of secondary infection. of course I flushed out the wound with a lot of saline before that.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Do you think the baby could be having PMV? I have other pigeons in the room :/ I am just thinking about it now. 

The symptoms went down like this:
- lethargy - after feeding baby would stand with his head and wings drooping
- baby could not stand any more and neck was hanging, whole bird was limp
- baby could not stand and movements become uncoordinated
- neck twisted to one side, baby wants to preen but head is just darting everywhere.

I don't know does he have watery poop because his formula is still a bit thin so of course he has a big ring of water around poop. There are urates and the feces is thin but not like a little worm.

I mean, it is too late now anyway, if he has PMV I have infected the others via clothes :/


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## Bird whisperer (Dec 14, 2013)

I’ve been following this story and hoping for the best, you are a lovely person to be helping the little bird.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How is the baby doing? A wound to the back of the neck might have injured some of the muscles there, and this might explain the head hanging the whole time. It's a good sign he is trying to preen himself. Overdosing on meds like Metronidazole causes neurological symptoms, one should not jump to the conclusion he has PMV.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello Marina B,

This baby never got Metronidazole, it is the different pigeon with Clostridia.
Also this baby, upon arrival, when the wound was still fresh, held its head up without a problem when it was begging for food. It only held its head and wings low when standing but resting, something it did sometimes during the day.

Anyway, the vet had ended antibiotics. I was giving the medication for the crop motility but the baby was so weak that the medication started building up in the body, so it almost sedated the poor pigeon at one point. So vet told me he has no more options, the baby was very weak, neck twisted and obviously was going to die soon so I decided to take a risk. My theory that the crop, after flushing, remained inflamed or infected and that antibiotics given by injection were not doing anything, so I gave the baby Enrofloxacine. I know it is not good for joints, but at that point I did not see any other option. And it worked. I continued to give it for 4 days. The crop if working nicely now. I am giving a thinned formula which I just started to thicken up so fingers crossed. It gained 12g in weight first 2 days. It started to preen all around the body and is occasionally flapping wings and trying to stand. But still it is weak, head is darting all around, sometimes shaking. Sometimes baby holds the head normal and then it goes to the side again. It also started to squeak again. The problem is that poop is very polyuric. The feces is formed, there are urates on the feces but there is a mass of water. I am not sure is the amount of water in the formula or is there a problem with the kidneys. I asked the vet and he thinks the kidneys might be damaged. He promised to look for some options for medication, as we don't have a lot of medicine for birds in Montenegro.

I did not want to say anything so far because even with the good signs it is still a very problematic situation. I am not sure will the baby live or not.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He needs calcium/D3, and if the formula is too thin he won't get enough nutrition to get strong. He will remain weak. But calcium/D3 is needed for muscles and nerves.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You haven't posted in a while. How is the baby doing?


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

So the baby is bigger now. We are well over 200g and I did not weight her (I believe it is a hen) since the crop started to work great. I got her on thickest formula that she can slurp and since few days ago I also started to offer her seeds. She now eats seeds like a pro. I gave her Calclium+D3 and multivitamin with microelements. Then I went to A. D3, E drops. This seems to accelerate the recovery best. She is progressing with the neck and her balance but she still can not stand. She is able to sit on her heels and move with a combination of wings and feet a bit, but she still ends up upside down a lot, on her back and unable to turn around. I see it will go slowly but she initially could not puck her head up, move her legs, or even eat. I was tube feeding for long but now she eats out of a syringe - large opening where the piston goes I cover with a finger tip of a rubber glove with a slit cut and she puts the beak in the slit and eats from the inside of the syringe. She drinks 30 ml in one go multiple times a day, when ever the crop is empty. 

This is her preening, she preens good now but can't reach the tail. Her feathers are a mess due to the period of starvation but she will molt.
https://postimg.cc/image/kbwnuht0t/

I put her like this and offer her seeds. I also give her pigeon grit with redstone and "pigeon cake" - it looks like a brittle gray brick with vitamins and minerals. Pigeons that come on my feeders love it, and she does to, I saw her eat two nice sized pieces today. It is very soft, you can crumble it with your fingers. She also ate some grit. She eats a lot of peas from the pigeon seed mix and manages to digest them so far without any trouble. 
https://postimg.cc/image/xhc601pb1/

And this is her in my lap. She adores cuddling. I never saw a pigeon that loves to be petted and kissed do much  and I had a lot of cuddly pidgeon babies. She only feels safe in my lap or arms so I am doing everything one handed now and carry here everywhere. When I put her down after fer minutes she goes crazy.
https://postimg.cc/image/4rpa3og8t/

I know I am spoiling her but she is a very special baby. She survived the impossible...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad she is doing better, but if the feathers on her head, face, don't come in soon, I would treat for canker. Are you making the formula thick enough?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You've done a great job! Drinking lots of water is also a sign of canker, drinking 30 ml multiple times a day is quite a lot. So that's one thing you must look out for.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello,

Sorry about my English. What I was trying to say is that she drinks 30ml of formula - hand feeding formula. I make it thick, so it can just be slowly poured. I weighted her she has 270 g now, and she nice and plump on the breast bone. Also since the thick formula and her eating seeds poops are also great now completely normal with nice white urates, no excess water.

As for the feathers on her face, it is not visible on the photos but they are starting to grow, there are little black points on her face except around the eyes and around the beak.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Perfect! Keep on spoiling her, she deserves it. I hope you are going to keep her, she will always be special to you.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I probably hand fed over 50 baby pigeons. I live in a building on a top floor and they always have an option to fly away and come back. Usually they stay inside but go on daily flights until they become mature. After that they move out but return to the feeder every day. I prefer this because they find a mate and have babies. The happiest moment is when they return to the feeder with two squeaking babies still begging for food even thou they are almost as big as their parents  The oldest hen that I hand fed and that is still returning is 5 years old, and I have a little hen maybe just 3 years old but she is a crazy baby machine  she just brings in babies all year round.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sounds like you have the perfect set up! Good luck with the future rescues!


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

In good times it looks like this 
https://ibb.co/bDjTnT


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Love it! They look so happy!


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Every day the baby is a bit more off the ground, slowly learning to use its legs and wings 
https://ibb.co/kD3mxT


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## Patmara (Jul 6, 2018)

SilverFeral said:


> In good times it looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very Beautiful! And the baby is so sweet looking.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He is starting to look much better. It's always a boost to ones confidence when you save a pigeon that has been almost dying. Keep up the good work!


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Hello, 
I need an advice again. I noticed today that the baby has tapeworm, I saw the white rectangles in the poop and I am 100% sure it is that. Pigeon tapeworm is easy to see as it is a dam big parasite.
Baby is at least 39 days old. It arrived on 19.06. and I estimate it had already at least 12 days. So it is old enough to give something for internal parasites. However I am a bit scared to do it because all the history. Especially because I only have a choice of ivermectin in Montenegro as the other dewormer is Levamisole that has no effect on tapeworm. 

In Montenegro we have ivermectin. I have albendasole and the other similar one but they are made for cows so I can cut the tablet for correct dose.

What do you suggest?

Also what I noticed working with wild pigeons all these years is that once the pigeons are old enough, usually when they first get the powdery noses, they tend to just get rid of tapeworm on their own. This happens with all wild birds, they develop immunity and get rid of the majority of infestation. Usually when I hand feed baby pigeons they are wild birds so I never give any medicine unless it is necessary. I let birds develop the natural immunity as they will need it. I never had any problems with these birds and they are more healthy that ones that are completely cleaned of everything. Because as soon as they get a mate and start beak to beak feeding with their mate they tend to get every single disease possible :/ 
If it is another healthy wild baby I would not do anything and just watch the poop and the appetite and the weight, but this was a very sick baby.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

First of all they do not just naturally rid themselves of tapeworm or any other worm. That just isn't true. There is no such thing as building up an immunity to parasites. Just doesn't happen.
Then, Ivermectin doesn't kill tape worm. And Albendazole is toxic to pigeons and they can die from giving it to them. Especially a baby. Baby pigeons really should not be dewormed till they are 3 months old.

Maybe you are mistaken in what you are thinking he has. Can you post a picture of the tapeworms?


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> First of all they do not just naturally rid themselves of tapeworm or any other worm. That just isn't true. There is no such thing as building up an immunity to parasites. Just doesn't happen.


Akctually, parasites do trigger an immune response which can kill the parasites, and that response can develop over time. I certainly wouldn't count on it happening, as tapeworms have there ways of getting around it, but wild animals usually do fine with some parasites. I wouldn't treat it unless it's causing a problem. In this particular case I'd just monitor his weight and appetite closely.



http://vetsci.co.uk/2009/12/30/immunity-to-parasites/# said:


> Helminths are relatively large and have a thick extracellular cuticle making them almost immune to phagocytosis and other conventional immune responses. Even complement is unable to perforate the cuticle to lyse the parasite. The host immune system has developed a method to combat this, by targeting the weaker points of the parasite, for example the digestive tract of the parasite
> 
> The main mechanism of the acquired immune response to combat the parasite is to elicit a very strong TH2 response. This results in high levels of IgE, IL-4 and antibodies as well as an accumulation of eosinophils and mast cells. This causes raised blood levels of IgE and eosinophils (eosinophilia).
> 
> IgE is able to bind to the parasite and eosinophils have an IgE Fc receptor (FcR). Macrophages and platelets also possess this receptor. The IgE coating the parasite bind the eosinophils (and macrophages and platelets) activating them and resulting in the death of the parasite. IL-5 secretion is also stimulated, (produced by TH2 cells) which mobilises the bone marrow pool and results in the release of the large number of eosinophils.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Yes young birds do develop immunity. They do not get rid of 100% of parasites bit keep them in low numbers so they do not cause much problems. I saw that during rescue of many juvenile birds especially pelicans. I will never forget the nightmare of waiting for the young ones to start discarding parasites, we are talking of balls of dead worms. I also saw excretion of adult tapeworm, it becomes all pink as it is attacked by the white blood cells and its body walls start to break.

Regarding this process I had a great luck to see experts at work explaining why is it important for young birds etc. during their study visit.

Thank you for Albendazole I would check before I give anything, I was just naming what we have in MNE.

As for the picture I will take a photo. The tapeworm segments do not appear in every poop so I will take a pic as soon as the baby drops an infested poop where they are clearly visible. But I am sure I saw a lot of roundworm and tapeworm eggs in my life and a lot more adults being excreted :/


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Warning, image of poop with parasite eggs in it.
https://ibb.co/bN0Fid


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes they do build up an immunity to many parasites and they live with them, unless stress or something raises the levels of the parasite, and then they become a problem. But worms are just going to keep multiplying if not treated and can eventually kill the bird. They are taking nutrients that the bird needs, and can eventually cause a blockage which will also kill the bird.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That looks like round worm to me. As you are seeing so many worms, I think you should worm him. Because there are so many, I would suggest starting the baby on an antibiotic for a few days prior to worming. Even then, I would give half the dose you would normally give. 
Personally, I try to wait til 2 months before worming but sometimes it
s necessary.
If you can get moxedectin plus, by the Australian Pigeon Company, that does treat all worms, including tape worm and external parasites as well. It also is safe for young birds under 2 months, according to Colin Walker which created this particular formula.
As Jay told you, Fenbendazole is toxic to pigeons and doves and should never be used on either.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Unfortunately in Montenegro I only have few options and I would say Levamisole is the safest.

And there is a problem, he had 2 diarrhea stools since this morning. The second one is quite full of eggs so I have to deworm. I was thinking of taking him to the vet to do a stool sample to make sure is there any bacteria also, so that I can give best antibiotics prior to dewormer. Or with dewormer, if that is safe to do...

I have Levamisole tablets for pigeons with 20 mg per tablet. He has 282 g I just weighted him. Is 1/2 of the tablet a lot? Maybe 1/4 th?

So far he is active and with good appetite.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

I think we have praziquantel, it is for humans and a vet can give me a prescription. I am just reading it is safer for pigeon and less problematic for the digestive system. 

On line I see the dose in 10-20 mg per kg. Should I calculate it for the weight of the baby and give half the dose? Or full dose?

Thank you.


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## SilverFeral (Dec 15, 2015)

Just to give an update. The pigeon had maybe 3 bad poops and all went to normal. The problem was formula, once I stopped feeding the formula and he got only on seed diet poops became perfect. There were eggs but as I am waiting for it to be 2 months old I do not see eggs any more. Of course parasites are still there, but immunity did some work obviously.

As neurological damage from previous problems looks permanent, pigeon will become my pet. if by any chance it becomes good flyer I will of course give him opportunity to fly. in the meantime, after 2 months, if he still is unable to fly I will give medication for worms if I see any problems.

Right now he is a very active pigeon with good weight.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Great news! Thanks for the update and taking such good care of him.


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