# What color are they?



## red2x (Nov 20, 2008)

I just got some new saddles over the weekend and was wondering what color they are. I bought a red, a couple yellow and a couple of these.
















What do you think they are? They seem to be like the yellow but even lighter. I don't think they are khaki.
Here is one of the yellows for reference.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah that's an interesting one, i couldnt come up with an answer other than pale. Would like to see what others think.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Very interesting, Spread? ash yellow


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah, i was thinking the first one was spread something, the second one though looks more checked could just be a course spread.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> yeah, i was thinking the first one was spread something, the second one though looks more checked could just be a course spread.


Yeah, I have 4 red spread rollers and they vary a lot, Some almost completely grey and some with a lot of red, 3 are Bar Based one is Check, The check looks similar to photo 2 - difference being mine are not dilute.

Will wait for the experts opinions aye.. ;-)


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## orock (Mar 28, 2011)

They are some nice looking birds.If you don't mind me asking where and how much did they cost.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

The first 2 look like Indigo Grizzle and the last is Indigo .


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The first two are ash-yellow checks, the last one is ash-yellow t-pattern.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

i agree with Becky, too light to be indigo..


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

The first looks like an ash-yellow spread.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Bearing in mind how prevelant the dominant opal gene is in saddle Homers, my guess would be that they are dominant opal ash-red t-pattern chequer.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

dimerro said:


> The first looks like an ash-yellow spread.


I was thinking the same thing, but it'd have to be a coarse one.



The first one could be dom opal ash-red now that I look at it. It reminds me a lot of my ash-red satinettes. Which isn't opal, but it does make a laced look like frill stencil does.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The first two are ash-yellow checks, the last one is ash-yellow t-pattern.



Why are the checks showing through distorted? Spread? or some other gene.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I was thinking the same thing, but it'd have to be a coarse one.
> 
> 
> 
> The first one could be dom opal ash-red now that I look at it. It reminds me a lot of my ash-red satinettes. Which isn't opal, but it does make a laced look like frill stencil does.


Most ash red spreads are coarse in my experience, Im going with my original post right at the beginning of the thread that both are spread.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

copper said:


> The first 2 look like Indigo Grizzle and the last is Indigo .


Defenitly not Indigo


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

i cant seem them being just ash yellow checks, the first one has a very light color and the second is lighter than the last. The first i dont really see a check pattern on the bird either.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> i cant seem them being just ash yellow checks, the first one has a very light color and the second is lighter than the last. The first i dont really see a check pattern on the bird either.


Completely agree, I have never seen a *check* bird without *checking* - Could be check based yes but something else is defenitly going on, If not spread something like Opal as already mentioned.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Considering a few people have mentioned spread I think that would be your best bet until breeding tests proove otherwise. Could be wrong but I don't think anyone could be certain basing there decision on a photo. Please update us once you have bred from this bird as I am intruiged.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Could they be barless under the shield?


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm probably wrong ,but I checked my books on Genetics and found a picture of an Indigo Grizzle in Bob McGuan's book Pigeon Genetics ,page 11.It looks very close.
Below is a picture of a ash red T patten.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

This is a dominant opal T-pattern ash-red hen.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21924&stc=1&d=1321813440


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

copper said:


> The first 2 look like Indigo Grizzle and the last is Indigo .


Indigo on what? Ash-yellow?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Most ash red spreads are coarse in my experience, Im going with my original post right at the beginning of the thread that both are spread.


I agree, I'm just not sure I've ever seen one as coarse as the second bird. I DO see checks and bar on the second bird. The first, not really. I'm thinking the first bird is ash-red and the second ash-yellow.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

ash red what? spread?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here are some more pictures of ash-red dom opals. I'm thinking that might be what the first one is. It would make sense as opals seem to be "in" with saddle homers.


















This is what usually comes to my mind when I think ash-red dom opal. BUT your bird is probably a t-pattern like the first one in this post. Or a heavy check. And what comes to my mind is obviously a bar.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

the first bird seems alittle darker, it looks like it has a hint of yellow really. Those ash red opals have more of a "silver" haze to it where the first bird is has a darker color, or a guess more rich would be a better word.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Here are some ash-yellows I found in the saddle homers USA albums. It doesn't say what they are but I assume spread:


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Here are some ash-yellows I found in the saddle homers USA albums. It doesn't say what they are but I assume spread:


Yes I would assume spread too, These look the most like the saddles in question IMO.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ash-red opal


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Indigo on what? Ash-yellow?


He may mean **** indigo with dilute as this produces a yellow phenotype. Still think these birds are spread ash yellow.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Another. Ash-red spread?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I agree, I'm just not sure I've ever seen one as coarse as the second bird. I DO see checks and bar on the second bird. The first, not really. I'm thinking the first bird is ash-red and the second ash-yellow.


I see checks too but they are distorted in a way consistent with ash red spread birds. I find it hard to accept that they are just checks with nothing else going on.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Another. Ash-red spread?


I would think so yes, The dark fleck on the wing shield is indicative of a spread bird as it is very dark. I have some ash red spreads with so much black flecking they look to be almond or something.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> He may mean **** indigo with dilute as this produces a yellow phenotype. Still think these birds are spread ash yellow.


**** indigo on silver? Ash-red mimics (even the dilutes) still have dark "ash" parts (tail, head, wings). Darker than a normal ash-yellow or ash-red would have. More blue-ish. Indigo on ash-red/yellow is a bit different. But indigo darkens the red/yellow parts, and the birds in question are very lightly colored. So that doesn't really make sense.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I would think so yes, The dark fleck on the wing shield is indicative of a spread bird as it is very dark. I have some ash red spreads with so much black flecking they look to be almond or something.


Yes, but it is dilute or not? The fleck sort of looks diluted but it's hard to tell.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Another baby that reminds me of the birds in question








One more











Where is George????? He's the genetics guy with saddle homers. The only saddles I have are black and blue t-patterns. It's a lot harder to guess colors when you only have the shield to work with.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> **** indigo on silver? Ash-red mimics (even the dilutes) still have dark "ash" parts (tail, head, wings). Darker than a normal ash-yellow or ash-red would have. More blue-ish. Indigo on ash-red/yellow is a bit different. But indigo darkens the red/yellow parts, and the birds in question are very lightly colored. So that doesn't really make sense.


Yes **** indigo on a blue based bird with dilute gives a yellow phenotype, I realise it is a different look to usual yellows but to the untrained eye a **** indigo bird can be mistaken for an ash red therefore I imagine the same mistake could be made with **** indigo dilute on blue based. I do not think thats what these birds are but thought maybe thats what copper MAY have been meaning


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Im personally sticking with Ash yellow spread with dilute. Especially after seeing the pics you have posted Becky. You have suggested a few different options throughout the thread so Im confused as to what you think they are. Seems a few people have suggested spread.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> **** indigo on silver? Ash-red mimics (even the dilutes) still have dark "ash" parts (tail, head, wings). Darker than a normal ash-yellow or ash-red would have. More blue-ish. Indigo on ash-red/yellow is a bit different. But indigo darkens the red/yellow parts, and the birds in question are very lightly colored. So that doesn't really make sense.


Just another thought, This bird is a saddle which means its tail and head are white, If it is a Check then there would not be much visibility of the " ash parts" you talk off. Would that make it diffucult to rule out **** indigo on a blue bird with dilute. 

I want to point out that this is not what I think the bird is. 

The point i'm making is that because this bird is saddle it would make it harder to see if it was an " ash red mimic " or not.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I agree, I'm just not sure I've ever seen one as coarse as the second bird. I DO see checks and bar on the second bird. The first, not really. I'm thinking the first bird is ash-red and the second ash-yellow.


Example of how coarse a spread can be, Some of you may know NZpouter, this is a thief he breed, Appears T check underneath maybe check, cannot be sure. But just wanted to show a shield that if diluted would look very similar to bird in the second pic.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Sorry heres the link for the post above

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pets-animals/birds/birds/pigeons/auction-146742966.htm. 

Check out the second pic


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## red2x (Nov 20, 2008)

Becky, Those photos you posted look pretty darn close. I think that might be it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Just another thought, This bird is a saddle which means its tail and head are white, If it is a Check then there would not be much visibility of the " ash parts" you talk off. Would that make it diffucult to rule out **** indigo on a blue bird with dilute.
> 
> I want to point out that this is not what I think the bird is.
> 
> The point i'm making is that because this bird is saddle it would make it harder to see if it was an " ash red mimic " or not.


You are right. I must have temporarily forgot all about the fact we're talking about saddles. Although the picture he posted of the bird that was supposed to be indigo, wasn't a saddle, and it just didn't look much like an indigo to me.

But, on the two light birds, I think they'd be darker in the shield if they were indigo. I can see some ash parts, enough to make me think the second one is a check. Now if they were dark velvets like the last picture in the original post, that would be different.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Example of how coarse a spread can be, Some of you may know NZpouter, this is a thief he breed, Appears T check underneath maybe check, cannot be sure. But just wanted to show a shield that if diluted would look very similar to bird in the second pic.


Yes, they can look hardly spread at all! But some of them are very fine spreads, especially in these saddles where color is everything. I saw a lot of beautiful ash-red spreads in the albums that had solid silvery gray shields.

But I agree, the second one could definitely be spread.

One way to solve this would be to mate them to blue bar saddles. If you end up with blacks...there you go. That's if these turn out to be hens (if they are cockbirds, I don't see any flecking but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be carrying blue...but you'll know when you breed them).


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Would barless be an option. 
Why would a spread look the same as a barred without the bar?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> Would barless be an option.
> Why would a spread look the same as a barred without the bar?


Becase spread on ash red distorts the red and brings the ash out therefore hiding the bar


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

red2x said:


> Becky, Those photos you posted look pretty darn close. I think that might be it.


Which photos? There has been a few and not all of them the same genotype


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Could the first bird in question just be smoky check?

Smokey could also cause the pattern to be washed out like that. And since we cannot see the tail, and the beak is light due to the saddle marking, we wouldn't be able to see any of the other effects of smoky.


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

This is a picture of Reduced Indigo


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## copper (Aug 25, 2010)

Homozygous-Spread-Indigo-Dilute-Yellow


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Could the first bird in question just be smoky check?
> 
> Smokey could also cause the pattern to be washed out like that. And since we cannot see the tail, and the beak is light due to the saddle marking, we wouldn't be able to see any of the other effects of smoky.


I did wonder about that, I have seen smoky/slate birds that look like bird 2 also.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

copper said:


> Homozygous-Spread-Indigo-Dilute-Yellow



Is this homozygous spread and homozygous indigo?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So I thought I might compile the suggestions as the thread has gotten reasonably long.

Snapshot of what the bird could be. I have also included the names of the people suggesting them

*Print tippler *has suggested Pale maybe and was thinking spread could also be a possibility

*NZ Pigeon* - sugggested Spread - Agrees could be smokey

*Dimerro* - Photo 1 Ash yellow spread

*Mary of exeter * Firstly said the first 2 *are* ash yellow checks and the last one an ash yellow t check, Then agreed *could* be spread. Then suggested " The first one *could* be dom opal ash-red now that I look at it". Then it appears there was doubt if the bird even has dilute. So im stuggling to determine what mary of exeter thinks these are.


*Copper* - Indigo grizzle

*Henk69* - possibly barless

*Rudolph.est* - suggested smoky

Thats a few people that have agreed with spread, I guess until breeding tests proove otherwise I would go with the overall consensus.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That's because I'm open-minded and by no means am I an expert. People suggest things, I take it into consideration, and from there I may change my mind. The more I look at it, the more I confuse myself. My very first guess, I just glanced at the bird. Then I looked at it more closely. Now my opinion is that the first is ash-red, the second is ash-yellow. Spread? Dom opal? I don't know. It could go either way, which is why I suggest to wait until they pop out some babies. The only thing I will stick to is that the second bird is ash-yellow check. There are very likely other modifiers but I do believe it is a yellow check base. Smokey does make sense as the pattern does appear smudged. So I agree that is definitely a possibility.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah thats great you keep options open and I'm far from an expert, I was just pointing out that I was unsure of what you thought they may be as a few things were mentioned, I agree all are possibilities and only breeding will confirm. Thats the fun really. I do think its hard to tell the pattern as if spread is there it would distort this, You are right the second one looks checked based and the first one must be check or Tcheck as it has the dark yellow colour in areas that a Barred bird would be ash. I think even the experts would struggle to label any birds genotype based on a picture.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah I'm sorry I was kinda snappy. It's been a rough day.  Still hoping George will pop in. I'm sure he'd know and has probably seen some like these before.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

NO Don't apologise, After reading my thread back I can see how it could have been taken the wrong way. Was in no way the intent. Just wanted to compile everything as this is a very interesting thread and I wanted to see all the possibilities in once place, Not trying to discredit what you have said at all.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

indigobob said:


> Bearing in mind how prevelant the dominant opal gene is in saddle Homers, my guess would be that they are dominant opal ash-red t-pattern chequer.


You forgot this one?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

indigobob said:


> You forgot this one?


Sorry - My bad


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## red2x (Nov 20, 2008)

I got an opinion from a bit of a saddle expert.
First bird - dominant opal on ash red t-pattern








Second bird - cream bar (ash red bar dilute) with some light checking , or could be a cream bar with sooty factor








Initially I thought they were the same genetically but the more I look at them, the more I can see the differences.
Thanks for great dissuscion everyone. It's intereting to get everyone take on it.
Now to breed them out this spring and see what I get. I was told to pair bird 1 with a blue check to get lace birds. I'm going to try that if possible.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

red2x said:


> I got an opinion from a bit of a saddle expert.
> First bird - dominant opal on ash red t-pattern
> 
> 
> ...


The first one is likely to be correct, Im still doubtful on the second suggestion, The bars are too faded in my opinion to be a barred bird without either having smokey or spread to make the bars appear coarse. Could be an ash red bar - dilute with smoky, Or a check with spread. Don't think its your typical cream bar though


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Look at the variations of blue chequer dominant opals in the "Genetics of this saddle" thread; the variation between the two birds in this thread is minimal by comparison. 
Red2x, hopefully you will be able to breed both to blue chequers and both will breed you laces, let us know the outcome.


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