# Pigeon Unable To Stand



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi, found a pigeon a few days ago near my feeder, appeared unwell so I picked the bird up and brought it inside. The bird seems to be getting worse as it is now unable to stand. The bird weighs approx. 290 gr. I wormed the bird (worm out gel for two days) and have been giving it calcium syrup in it's drinking water. I'm not sure what to do next?


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Vesna and thank you for helping this little pijie.

Can you give any other details? Does he/she look like a young bird, is he eating/drinking on his own and what exactly do the legs look like they are doing? Are they weak or splayed or is he falling over? 

Pictures always help when possible.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi, the bird is not young. The legs were working fine when I brought the bird in, it was standing on it's own. It has not been able to stand for a few days, the legs will move if I touch them but they remain under her pointing towards her tail. So far she will eat and drink with my help(bringing the dishes to her) but the bird keeps her tail up and seems to have diarhea


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could it possibly be eggbound?


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Vesna, thank you for helping this bird.
Can you please give more details, how is his poop looking (normal, diarrhea, water)?
Did you check inside his mouth (color, smell, any liaisons)?
Do you have any medicines on hand (canker, cocci treatment, antibiotics)?
Is there an option to take him to the Vet?

For now keep him warm and well fed, post pictures of the bird and the poop we may be able to think of something.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi, sorry I've been away from the computer. The poops are wet like diarrhea, they stick to her bottom so I wash it a couple of times a day. Inside the mouth appears pink and clear. I have some baytril and sulmet liquid on hand. Not sure when my vet will be back in the office. Wondering what would be best to do next?


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I would start him on Baytril, keep him warm and make sure he is eating enough. Sometimes they pretend that they eat just to mask their illness check his crop and poops. How old is Baytril? Is it in tablet form or solution?
I use 15mg tablets 1/2 twice a day. 

You can check this tread too:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/handy-baytril-tablet-liquid-dosage-chart-16368.html

Besides medication, I would give him cinnamon tea (1 teaspoon to 1 liter boiling water and let it boil for few minutes) mix with honey and give instead of water. You can dilute if he is not drinking.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi, Merry Christmas to all. I weigh the bird every day to make sure it's eating and I make sure it drinks (unflavoured pedialyte) a few times a day. The bird is maintaining a weight of approx. 290-300 gr. The bird can move it's legs but does not stand upright, it leans forward with it's butt up in the air. The bird is making poops although they are wet and the bird pumps it's tail hard in order to do so. How long before Baytril tablets are too old? I have 15 mg tablets which I dissolve in 1ml of water in a syringe, give a third of a ml every twelve hours? Thanks I appreciate the help, very sweet bird (they all are) want to help any way I can.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

So that's the equivalent of 10mg total of baytril per day if l understand correctly - you can up it to 12-15mg total per day. Could be egg binding indeed - am also wondering if some sort of anti-inflammatory would help Can you get hold of medacam (meloxcam) ? lf not do you have any liquid childrens formula (NOT infants - childrens) ibuprophen ?


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thanks I will definitely increase the dose of medication. Do not have any medcam, will have to check on the children's ibuprofen. Would an egg bound bird still be able to poop?


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It's just that sometimes one of the signs of egg-binding is a temporary paralysis of the legs...and also, strangeness occurs with the poops.

You should do a search of "egg bound" on this site. I think folks have written of this condition before.....

Childrens liquid Advil or Childrens liquid Motrin....dosage = .02cc per 100g of bird. So if your friend is in at about 300g, I would tend towards a dose of .05cc....no more.

Not as good as Medacam because as you know, Ibuprophen can cause drowsiness...but it may offer some relief to her.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Another possibility is...Clostridium which is very common this time of the year.
You don't need to disolve the baytril in water. You can give one of those pills, directly down the throat, 1 time each day. With Pigeons in particular, baytril works best with the full dose once a day.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Tablets are fine, solution gets old and cloudy in approximately 5 days, 10 if in the fridge.
Egg bound hen is one case, after laying paralysis is another.
In cases of salmonella, joints are swollen and you can see yellowish fluid under the skin in the joints area. 
With PMV there is no swelling, just paralysis. But you will notice diarrhea and bird will require vitamins and immune system boost. Bird will drink a lot.
Same situation may be in the case of wet canker, there will be other neurological signs though and smelly diarrhea, puffy crop often full of smelly fluid.
Some poisons will induce paralysis too, bright green diarrhea is usual addition. Concussion – she may have bruises wounds, etc. etc.
I would check for joints swelling fist.
Second - use pen flashlight and check iris response on light, both eyes.
Third - while supporting body with one hand, spread one wing gently to the full span and release it, watch for reaction and how quick she will retract it should be in a blink.
Repeat procedure with other wing.

If you notice sluggish reaction on iris/wing check she probably has neurological problem induced by disease. 
Best bet is Baytril for 10 days and if you have Spartrix 1 pill.

If her reactions are fine then chances of post-egg paralysis are high and she needs minerals, vitamins and calcium.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you so much for the great information, really appreciate it. Did the wing test, she pulled back quickly. Starting to believe it may be something neurological. I have experience with PMV birds, this one seems different, no throwing of seeds, neck turning/star gazing. She cannot stand and her poops are formed but wet and a little foul smelling. I will continue with Baytril and call on Monday to see if my Vet is in so he can have a look at her. Hope she can remain strong until then. Seems I always need his help the most on weekends or holidays.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Lab test is best bet of course, please let us know what are results with your Vet. Best luck to you and her until Monday.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi, took her to the Vet and thought I would give an update. He examined her and believes she is suffering from micro toxins, he says birds are more prone to that this time of year because they are usually only able to find standing water to drink. He told me these situations usually don't end well and was suprised to know I have had her for one week. She is definitely going through a horrible time with her nervous system. Anyone know anything further on this or anyway I might help her?


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

If he is sure that this is case of micro toxins than you can use Carbo Vegitabilis pills (activated charcoal - 1~2 pill a day) from the health shop and Calcium Ascorbate tablets for human use (disvolve in water).
They will bind and neutralize toxins in the body.
Vitamins B complex and honey in formula mix will boost immunity.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

*pigeon unable to stand*

I am tracking this one. Keep us posted on how it goes. Good suggestions from Plamenh. If you can obtain these drugs and use them quickly I will be praying that the little girl makes it.....LOL


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello, Vet called me early this morning to let me know the poop I gave him to examine is full of coccidiosis(hope I spelled that one correctly) we have an appointment for 11:00 a.m. tommorow. Would any health food store have the charcoal you mentioned above. I could run out and pick some up. She is holding on so I am not giving up. Poor little girl has a lot going on inside. Thank you for all your help and well wishes.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

I have some capsules called CharcoCaps, they say Carbo Vegetabilis on the back under medicinal ingredients, they are in capsule form. What would be the best way to dose? Is the calcium regular calcium tabs? Should I give them together?


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Use 1g of charcocap per 1g of bird weight - that's a not-too-aggressive dosage & should be safe


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you for the dosage amount. Would I disolve the capsule in her drinking water?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Micro toxins"? Is it possible that he actually said "mycotoxins"? Those come from fungi like Aspergillus. Nasty stuff, too. By the way, for that Coccidiosis, you'd want something like Corid (Amprolium), Divet (Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo) or Appertex (Diclazuril).

Pidgey


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Vesna said:


> Thank you for the dosage amount. Would I disolve the capsule in her drinking water?


Whatever works, I suppose. You could try dissolving, or just break up the pill into bits and pop it down her throat (carefully to avoid the air tube). From Plamenh's post above it sounds like you can just give the solid form directly (?) I would think either method would work.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hi, just finished dilluting a 260mg charcoal capsule and liquid calcium into her drinking water (very black) she took a nice long drink, plan to give another before bed. Pidgey, it is possible I may have confused what the Vet was telling me, I will find out in the morning, have an appt. at 11:00. Unfortunately my love of animals is greater than my knowledge, though I am learning as I go. Thanks again for all your advice and knowledge, the bird and I greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

BTW... I cannot believe I wrote this but of course I meant 1*MG* per *Gram* of bird....

Sounds like you figured that out yourself, though...


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Yes I knew what you meant to say, thanks again for the help.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Sorry for late response, charcoal dosage is ok, calcium tablets are the one for human use (Sandos is easiest to disvolve ase they are made to be drank in water).
If you can ger Appertex, that is quickest working medication for cocci and safest too.
If it turns out that we are talking about Mycotoxins, then I would try to find Gentian Violet crystals and use them in the drinking water for 5 days. (0.1~0.25% solution).


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

plamenh said:


> ....
> If it turns out that we are talking about Mycotoxins, then I would try to find Gentian Violet crystals and use them in the drinking water for 5 days. (0.1~0.25% solution)


I would suggest caution regarding this. From a look at it (admittedly a quick look) it appears to be a possible alternative to prescription meds for thrush (in humans) or a topical anti-fungal.

Plamenh - on what basis/where is this recommended as a medication in pigeons?

Just asking, since I've not read of it for such use.

John


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Plamenh - on what basis/where is this recommended as a medication in pigeons?


This came from an article or letter from Leo Turley, I also came accross it last week:



> It is probably worthy of mention that both my cases of fungal meningitis were 'cured' after treatment with Gentian Violet crystals (Rob's trade name GV11) in their water over 5 days and went on to race quite well. GV11 is typically anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anthelmintic.


 (You would have to read the whole article to get it in context.)

http://www.canadianracingpigeonblog.com/2009/02/fungal-meningitis.html


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm glad that you asked John as per our previous conversation we agreed that anyone can recommend treatment with drugs of questionable origin, quality or dosage.

This is the original article:

"In the past I have had two cases broadly similar to this, although not directly from feeding youngsters. Dr Rob Marshall diagnosed fungal meningitis, in my cases, after analysing the feed. Has anyone else had experience with the effects of fungal toxins arising from exposed feed and more particularly its triggering affect on the dormant/resident diseases of pigeons and ultimately on racing performance? Loss of co-ordination, particularly the effect of falling backwards onto the tail, is typical. Eventual loss of weight has occurred in my instances from poor coordination when trying to pick up grain.
I have only had a small number showing the meningeal effect in a loft of 50 birds which were diagnosed as equally affected with fungal toxin. Mark, it is probably not so in your case, but worth a thought.
There is a layman's crude way of testing the quality of grains (in similar fashion to the regular sprouting test). We have found that Sorghum (dari, milo et al) and maize are prime candidates for fungal infection and consequential carriers of toxic residue. Isolate your feed grains into individual handful lots and place them into separate sterile jars capable of being airtight sealed. Cover the grain with sterile water and re-seal allowing to soak for 24 hours. At the end of 24 hours drain off the water and quickly re-seal and allow to stand in an airy light situation for three days, or more.
Any grain showing signs of mould formation in the first 24 hours after draining off the water and re-sealing are likely to be fungal toxin affected. Any other grain forming a fungal deposit in two to three days needs to be looked at quite closely in terms of continuing on with its use in a racing situation. It is my own limited experience with this crude testing, that good (unaffected) grains survive for more than 3 days, before succumbing, in some cases, to mild mould formation. We are aware of the ubiquitous nature of fungal spores and the likely contamination of test grains from exposure to the atmosphere, although it is very obvious, in testing, that mould formation in the first 24 hours arises from mould affected grain.
Without going into great detail at this stage, the basic and normal progression of ingested fungal toxin is gastric upsets, lassitude, loss of 'form' and combined with racing stress, opens the way for the more serious mycoplasma's and the other usuals such as Trichomoniasis etc.
I have a feeling that this is a fairly new area of health in maintaining racing condition on our pigeons. At least it is my understanding that Dr Rob Marshall has been working independent of other possible similar studies of fungal infection of grain and its affects on pigeon health. It has only been of recent time that Dr. Marshall has sanctioned this fairly loose testing method as described above for home testing. Previously, we needed to send our grain samples to Rob for testing in more clinical conditions, and being almost 5,000 km (3000 miles) away we were losing time receiving a diagnosis. It is probably worthy of mention that both my cases of fungal meningitis were 'cured' after treatment with Gentian Violet crystals (Rob's trade name GV11) in their water over 5 days and went on to race quite well. GV11 is typically anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anthelmintic. It is possible some birds (like my two and possibly Mark's) are more susceptable to the meningeal effect. Beyond this I am getting out of my depth and Dr Marshall would need to explain further.
As I have mentioned in the past, we have Animal Welfare issues to deal with and it is my own personal opinion that we have come to grips with a lot of our latent health problems here in WA concerning our racing pigeon through identifying the more insidious affects of poor grain shipments."
Leo Turley

This is the link
http://www.canadianracingpigeonblog.com/

And reference in: Black's veterenarian dictionary;
Poultry treatment for Mycotoxins
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3971855.html
cross referenced in fungal infection in infants
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00128323
Toxicity of Gentian Violet
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33146
and use of Gentian Violet crystals in medicine (various sources)


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Thanks Plamenh. Yes, saw Leo's write-up in the article after Cynthia posted the link. The view of Leo Turley, as a well respected pigeon man, cannot just be dismissed. Be interesting to know if the treatment plan was prescribed by this Dr Marshall, specifically, as what references I could find seem to indicate that it is used by swabbing the product rather than drinking it. 

The other links are, ummm, interesting, however. Seems to be a somewhat strange product with various uses. I note that the clinical trial as a mouthwash on children, for candida, also used Nystatin and another product, but the site says "No Study Results Posted for this Study". Also used in lotions, and as an anti-fungal in animal feeds, amongst other things.

I think that for 'less usual' treatments we need to be very careful about 'anecdotal evidence'. Have you used this yourself, perchance?

John


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I did not used it jet on pigeons, except that it was used on me.
If you noticed in the material http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00128323 is described that patients were using solution as mouthwash and swallowing it afterwards.
And these are not the only sources of information about GV.

In the text published by Leo Turley is written:
It is probably worthy of mention that both my cases of fungal meningitis were 'cured' after treatment with Gentian Violet crystals (Rob's trade name GV11) in their water over 5 days and went on to race quite well. 
In the last chapter - please note in their water for 5 days, not as swabs.
You can always contact Leo and ask him for details:
[email protected] 

That was te main reason why I did research on dossage and eventual toxicity, FDA reports none. By the way one does not require prescription as per FDA in USA to purchase it while for Nustatin is required.
And also, cost of GV is just a fraction compared to cost of Nustatin.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Yep, saw what Leo had stated, and it is quite clear. I mention swabs as that is another reference to its use (i.e., a form of topical application).

Only point I'm making is that we need to be cautious about what we suggest if it is not a well-known and widely used treatment for pigeons by the method of application stated.

Maybe someone on PT has *first hand* experience of its use with their birds as an oral medication - if so, then that will be somewhat reassuring 

John


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

John_D said:


> Yep, saw what Leo had stated, and it is quite clear. I mention swabs as that is another reference to its use (i.e., a form of topical application).
> 
> *Only point I'm making is that we need to be cautious about what we suggest *if it is not a well-known and widely used treatment for pigeons by the method of application stated.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about this


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Hello, sorry I have been away for a while, had some computer issues. The pigeon is still unable to stand or use her legs effectively. I treated her for worms, coccidiosis and she is currently receiving Metronidazole(two more days to go) all of which were prescribed by my Vet. You were right Pidgey it was mycotoxins not microtoxins he was refering to. She eats and drinks on her own when I place the dishes close to her which is good but no real improvement. Not sure what to do next.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I spoke to the Avian Vet who did operation on one of my pigeons recently and yes, Gentian Violet was used in veterinary medicine to treat fungal infections. Presently they use Nysatatin (Mycostatin) oral suspention. I believe your Vet can prescribe that.
General detox may also help, as apple cider vinegar in drinking water, probiotics, vitamins and garlic pills.


----------



## Vesna (May 13, 2006)

Thank you for the advice, really appreciate the help. I will try and find those items you suggested, hopefully something will work.


----------

