# What strain to start with?



## conures4u (May 29, 2006)

What strain is the best to start with?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

conures4u said:


> What strain is the best to start with?


That's a good question. Racers, rollers???
Either way......strains don't really mean a whole heck of a lot these days. Some person who's got a pedigree bird that says it's a "Janssen" and it flies it's behind off won't agree but..............pedigrees are nice to a certain extent but it's only a piece of paper. Concentrate on getting birds from a well known flyer and don't worry so much about "what" they are but "what they are capable of doing", ie........short distance, long distance, all around distance........Your money is better spent on birds with a "history" behind them rather than a "piece of paper".......IMO>.......people pay lots of money for these young birds that win the futurities......my question is, if that bird had to do the same race 3 weeks in a row, would it win every week? There's lots of one hit wonders out there. I've got a few myself, but it's the ones that can do it time and time again. Some of the big guys sell baby's from birds that won a race in Belgium lets say against 11,000 birds. So what? Did it win any more races? Now the ones that won against 11,000, then 5,000, then 1,000........etc.......those are the GOOD birds.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi Conures4u,

Very well said Lovebirds, It's all going to depend on the distances you want to specialize in. Be that short distance speed birds, long distance, or birds that can do it all from 100 miles sprint races to the 600 mile distance races.

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conures4u said:


> What strain is the best to start with?


Hello Conures4u,

Welcome to our site. 

What brings you to ask such a question may I ask ? I am particularly interested in why you ask to "Start" with, instead of asking the question like, "What is the strain of choice", or "What is the best strain", or some other way.

The reason why I ask, is because there are basically two camps on this question, as I see it.


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## conures4u (May 29, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Conures4u,
> 
> Welcome to our site.
> 
> ...


Because I'm starting out. So I wanted to know if there is a good strain to start with? But what is the best strain? Or the strain of choice.


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## conures4u (May 29, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> That's a good question. Racers, rollers???


I was asking about Racers.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Good Luck*



conures4u said:


> Because I'm starting out. So I wanted to know if there is a good strain to start with? But what is the best strain? Or the strain of choice.


 Well Conures4u,

Let me answer part of your question with a question. If you were taking up some other sport or hobby, how would you normally acquire the various tools or equipment to do the job ? 

I mean, if you were going to take up skydiving, scuba diving, or golf, how would you go about selecting that kind of equipment ? Would you look in the want ads to see who might be getting rid of some equipment ? Would you go to a pro shop and ask to be outfitted with the latest and best ? Would you ask some friends to donate some of their older outdated equipment ?

Another question I would ask, is what level do you want to compete at ? Are you looking to just have some fun at your local club ? Or are you looking to play at the World Level ?

When I said in a previous post that there are two camps. There are those who say it does not matter what the "Strain" is, or even if the birds are any good. Until you learn to keep them healthy, and to learn how to manage your teams, you might as well start with gifts or junk stock, since you don't have the skills or ability to appreciate what good pigeons are anyway.

The other camp, would advise to acquire the very best which you can afford from day one, and I consider myself in this camp. As far as what is the "Best" or what is the strain of choice ? Well, then again, best at what ? Short races ? Young Birds ? Long distance ?

I really don't think there is a perfect strain for the "New Guy". And the word "Strain" has been so over used, and used incorrectly. I would say that at least 90% of so called strains are in fact misnamed. But here in the USA, people want to fight over the right to call the birds they own by a certain strain name, even though it's genetically incorrect and dishonest. 

So, bottom line, in 90%+ of all cases, even if you were to attempt to acquire a particular strain, assuming it was the "right" strain, you would in reality, get mislabled goods anyway...... Which is why in most cases, it is not going to matter, except perhaps in your results.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi conures4u,

It goes back to my question of whay your looking for, as with all pigeon fliers the best breed or line of pigeons depends on what you looking for? and we all have our favorites!

Do you want to specialize? or, are you looking for birds that do well all round?

Lawman


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hello conures4u,

You deserve a straight answer...... I can tell you that on OUR Desert plus Mountain Course with this Current 2005 YB's & 2006 OB's, these Strain's. #1Casaert/Based & #2 Persoon/Based in that order, has Kicked all our Tails for this last Yr. on Hard or Fast races!!! I don't own either of these%#*&()+"$%~`?><*+....So that's what I'd start with now if $$ wern't an object & I didn't have any Racers to begin with. It may be something else next yr., but that's the simple truth for right now in Our Area...... Please note that these birds Dominated in Combine (not just some little club) with 1,000 to 2,900+ birds, in 7 YB races & 12 OB Races, with 8 clubs compeating. All these Birds had to Break to many directions & think, so not like birds that flew in One Loft Races that don't have to Break/Think, just fly fast. Also note that in 2006 OB's we couldn't get passed 450mi. because of Weather & a Truck breakdown on the last race a 600mi., so there are some Based/Strains that might have beat them at the extream long distance? Good Luck, Hap


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi conures4u,

Like I said on another similar topic line *ITS HOURSES FOR COURSES* or, in other words, you need birds that a competative on the course you will be flying. So to be able to say that there is one win all or be all bloodline.......there's not one I've ever come across. They all have there limitations and strengths.

So before anyone can say that you should try any particular bloodline, go talk with the people in your area and see what bloodlines are winning. It will save you a lot of time and aggrevation on race day when otherwise healthy birds, are asked to go beyond there limitations and you loose them.

Lawman


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Something Else To Chew On*

Just in case you weren't confused enough already ... let me throw my situation at you. Now mind you I do not claim to be an expert, in fact I don't even have any birds yet. I am just sharing this with you to show the process I am going through, right, wrong or indifferent. I raced as a boy some 30 years ago and am just now getting back into it. I started off with the thought in mind that this would be a two year proposition. By this I mean that I was going to give myself two years to investigate, research and learn as much as I could before laying down my hard earned money on anything. This was also done because of financial reasons. This pigeon thing was going to be a cash only proposition. That includes the birds and building a loft. I was not going to borrow any money to do this. This of course was just my personal choice.

My next step was to start researching. There is an unending supply of materials and articles on the internet covering everything from breeding, families, racing strategies, you name it. At first I found this to be very frustrating. Everyone seemed to have a different oppinion on everything. I then found a site by Mr. Silvio Mattachione of Canada. The materials on his site were the first that I saw that really made sense to me. I am not saying that this man's information is gospel, I am just saying that it made sense to me. The point that he makes is to question everything, including his material, and see what makes scientific and personal sense. It is only through this process that one will develope a sense of truth for themselves. There are lots of ways to skin a cat. We must find the methods that will work for us. 

Anyway, to make a long story not quite so long, from here I decided what I wanted in my future hobbie. For me, I didn't want to worry about winning right off the bat persay. What I wanted was to build a familly, (or two famillies) of birds that would consistently breed quality hard working birds that would perform well at the 300-400 mile range as young birds. Some will feel that this is not the right goals to set. That is fine, because again, it has to be what *you* feel is important to *you*. Now that I had my goal I began looking for people who could provide the kind of birds I was looking for. Another thing that I have decided is important to me is to find two families of closely inbred, proven successful pigeons that I can cross to create my racing team. The benefits and perils of this strategy are well documented on various websites and in various articles. Again, this is what I have decided for me. It may not be what you decide is important to you. At that point I had to decide how much money I wanted to invest and then find the best birds that fit my criterion that I could afford on my budget.

Two other factors that I think are important to the decisions we are talking about. First, you need to find a breeder you can trust and feel comfortable with. The bottom line is they are going to be supplying you with whatever they want. They will either provide you with birds that are what they say they are and are a value, or they won't. Short of genetic DNA matching, you really won't have any way of verifying their claims. Talk to people, get to know them a little, talk to people they have done business with in the past. Feel comfortable about giving them your money and then trust them to live up to their end of the bargain. One thing I have found is that dishonest breeders won't remain a secret for long. People tend to share bad experiences in this sport. The other thing I would mention is to be sure you get birds that are appealing to you. Again, some will say that as long as they win, who cares what they look or act like. My point is that I will be racing these birds a couple of months a year but I will be scraping their crap for 12. Personally, I want something that is pleasant to look at and be around (again, just my oppinion).

This is probably *WAAYYY* more info than you were wanting, and I didn't even mention what I feel is the best family of birds. I guess that is my point. Find out what it is that is important to you. Find your "truth" as it were and don't be affraid to question everything. Of course that certainly includes this little novel I have just submitted!!  

Hope this helps some and if it didn't do that, I hope it didn't make things worse!

Dan


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well Dan............very well stated. Bottom line in racing pigeons is enjoy it. If ALL you want to do is win, you're in for a let down. Nobody wins them all and for me personally......at the end of the race day I want all my birds home. Some people just have this knack or maybe it's know how, of handling birds. The champion bird in my loft may have never won a single race in the loft of someone else and I could possibly take a family of birds that don't do well for you and win with them. It's not ALL on the bird........a great big part of pigeon racing lies in the ability of the fancier and basically, you get out of it what you put in it. We just had a guy quit racing after about 4 years. He never won a single race. He had birds from another person in our club that beats us all almost every week end. This guys idea of training birds was take them 35 or 40 miles training and then wonder why the couldn't get home in good time on a 200 mile race, if they came home at all. Another thing that will determine how well you do is your location. That plays a BIG part in all of this. We sit way west of the other 5 flyers in our club. If you draw a line from the race station to our loft and one to their loft, it's two totally different lines of flight. So my 10 birds, in order to win, must come out of the basket and fly a different course than the 50 that are going to the east. That makes it tough but we know that from the start and have to deal with it. That's why our champion bird was so special to us. It didn't matter if she was flying with 2 or 200 other birds. She was coming straight home every week end and she won lots of races for us. We weren't able to pull that off this year because she was put in the breeder loft. So.....I'm just rattling on and on here but, just do your research and have fun with the sport.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Don't Rush*



conures4u said:


> What strain is the best to start with?


HI CONURES4U, The only piece of advice I will give is,find the best flyers in your area and get birds from these people.I would get late hatches.Skip flying young birds this first year.Train the late hatches out to 70 -100 miles.Get them ready for old birds next year.DON'T RUSH learn all you can. GEORGE


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Best to start with just a few pair of the best birds you can get. Find out what base line of birds are performing well in your area.. Then find a breeder THAT IS HONEST. as many people sell paper. do not buy paper. look at the birds lookat there pedigree look at the race results on the bird you are buying. that tells how it did in the races. Then you will know what you are getting. Buying some young bird or yearling that the person said Well I raised this bird for stock ect, beawrare of paper tells 1 story the truth tells the rest. Strains were made by certion people testing there birds. But when they are sold to other people the birds change. Sure strain linmes give a good start for foundation breeding. You have to find a way for the birds to work for your program. Modern strains have roots to past strains. Now The Janssen based birds hhad been a good line for building. But you have newer families out there today. Start slow and do not rush getting a bunch of birds. 2 or 3 pair of the best you can get is a good start. Go from there.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Clarification*

Lovebirds,

Please understand that i have specifically not put my focus on winning. Like I said in my post, I want to develope a consistent, hard working bird. I certainly understand that winning in this game involves many pieces to fit together properly. The birds, the loft, health, motivation, location, handling, all of these factor into it. I just don't want to handicap myself from the beginning. My thought is that the more factors i can stack in my favor, the more likely I might be to achieve my goals. And again I must stress, this is only the way I have chosen to approach my activity in this sport. I in no way am saying that it is the only way or even the right way. It is just the route I have chosen to begin with..._*for me*_. I also certainly reserve the right to adjust my approach as I make mistakes and learn. That, to me, is what makes any activity fun, learning along the way.

Thanks,

Dan


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## conures4u (May 29, 2006)

> This is probably *WAAYYY* more info than you were wanting, and I didn't even mention what I feel is the best family of birds.
> Dan


Hi Dan
Thank-you! What do you feel is the best family?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Consistency That's The Name Of The Game*

HI DAN, I believe that consistency is the way to go.Build a family of consistent birds and it will lead to a winning family of birds.We live in a society that believes it instant winners! Working with consistent birds may be slower,but will in the long run be much more rewarding.Dan there is a new member to the forum with a posting of INTRODUCTION, John Valentine.He lives in NEWNAN GA, he is from NEW YORK. He is looking to get back into pigeons (racing)I thought you might live close to each other. GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Old School*



re lee said:


> Best to start with just a few pair of the best birds you can get....... Then find a breeder THAT IS HONEST..... Strains were made by certion people testing there birds.... Sure strain lines give a good start for foundation breeding. You have to find a way for the birds to work for your program. Modern strains have roots to past strains..... you have newer families out there today. Start slow and do not rush getting a bunch of birds. 2 or 3 pair of the best you can get is a good start. Go from there.


 Hello Robert,

Just a few lines from your post, and I can see we came from the same old school !


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Not trying to beat around the bush...*

I guess I did not include the results of my search because in some ways I didn't want to bias your search. I feel there are some things that are better derived at through ones own search. I think what is right for me may very well not be right for you and I don't want to send you down the wrong path and possibly waste your valuable time. I know that on some levels that sounds like a cop out but it certainly is not meant to be one. Just take the information with a grain...no a block of salt and realize that it is just the oppinion of one very inexperienced person looking for what is right for him.

Having said all that, the family of birds that I have settled on were originated by a man by the name of Ludo Claessens from The Netherlands. He was and is a very, very succesful flyer with very closely inbred stock. Aside from their success on the race course, they are just damn good looking birds! (Again, my humble oppinion) You can find plenty of info about him and his birds on the internet if you so desire.

Hope this answers some questions for you.

Dan


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

So you've checked out Warren's website?


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Yea, I have.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Where are you located? Maybe the members of the post can help you find some fliers in your area with good birds. You can contact redrose lofts your second year of flying and get signed up for the help a begginer program. There are members in my area that have birds to give away that most people cannot afford. Find someone in your area that is willing to help you aquire goods birds. Most members are willing to help new members get started. Most clubs need flyers. The AU is a good place to start. Smithfamilyloft has great birds for sale. He is in this post and has great deals on good birds. Personally my approach is to find the best birds you can by preformance and pedigree and fly them. Keep the good ones breed from them. Many people are willing to breed you late hatches. I personally fly Janssen based birds, Engels, Vic Miller birds, and some birds down from GFL best. These birds are all preformace based futurity birds. I am flying them in my area to see how they do on my course. I will build a family on the best flyers. I aquired brothers and sisters of futurity winners and birds down from winners in Europe and winning bloodlines. As soon as we have enough fliers in our club, I will begin to aquire winning birds in our area. Get birds bread for your course from the best flier in the area. A pure strain is hard to find.
Good Luck The anual AU book has all the fliers in your area, give one a call.
If you do not have the book e-mail me and I will find some names and numbers for you.
[email protected]
Hillfamilyloft
Randy Hill


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## Freeway Loft (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi, i'm Kyle,
me and my dad have been flying not to long but long enough, theres really no strain to start out with. I was told by Tony Alves and others that results are the best way to go. If you want want shorter birds, then pick the birds that flew short and or have bred many short winners, same with middle or long. But if you want all distance, you mine as well go with middle. Me and my dad has figured that middle distance birds have the best consinsity (need a dictionary). So what im really saying is that back ground isn't the best part of the bird. It's the bird it self thats the best part of it. Dont get me wrong tho. back ground is a key part to breeding.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Freeway Loft said:


> Hi, i'm Kyle,
> .... So what im really saying is that back ground isn't the best part of the bird. It's the bird it self thats the best part of it. Dont get me wrong tho. back ground is a key part to breeding.


 What exactly does that mean ? "It's the bird it self thats the best part of it "
How does a bird become it's self without a background ? Are you refering to the the way the genes are displayed ? 

Would that not be a result of the breeding ? Which means the background ?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Flash in the Pan....*

Let's face it Ladies and Gentlemen. 

When the bird you own does not have any history of greatness in the family tree, you speak of how great this bird did in your club or combine, againest at most 3000 birds, more likely a few thousand or even a few hundred. 

True greatness, is when you can track ten generations of Champions, againest many thousands, perhaps as many as 40,000 competitors, all in the background of your Star Combine winner. That way you can show that you have it through out the whole family tree. When you don't have that, then you speak of "Not buying paper". In other words, your single star is a "Flash in the Pan "...


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Well Warren I had a moster post for you and it went away. 
The gist of it was a few questions. Do you introduce other blood into your Ludos? Why did you choose Ludo Birds?
From studying winning birds pedigrees, I have noticed that at least 1/8 or better of the blood is from an outside source. For instance I have a grandson of Vic Millers "Davids Perfection" First at 400 and 500 vs 2000 birds. The pedigree traces back to 1/4 Jos Thone Blood. Musketier IV 1st Nat. Argenton 93. The pedigree is Grondelaers with a bit of Hofkens and Van Reet. 
I do not see other families of birds on your webpage.
To stay with the theme of strains. When studying the winners: Ludo, Engels, Thone, Van Elsaker, Verkerk etc. I find a corrolation in that they start with them best birds they can find from numerous sources, cull with the basket, develope a family from the winners, and then introduce new blood from winning bloodlines. 
Warren you pointed out earlier that it is better to get a handfull of birds from the best and line breed. Do you agree with introduction of new blood?
Love to here from you, and all of you.
Randy Hill
Hillfamilyloft


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

To be fair to Conures4u we should give options of our theory on "a family of birds"
My personal phylosopy has been developed from experiece, mainly that of others. My goal is to eventually fly futurities both one loft and those such as the San Diego Classic where multiple lofts are used. I simply went looking for futurity winning birds from fanciers in my area. This was very limiting. There are 4 serious fanciers in my area and one is me. I was fortunate enough to find Vern Crawley and Scott McCallister of Durango Co. Both are good futurity men. Scott won the San Diego Classic in 2001 and was 4th and 12th in 2004. Vern was 15th Vegas Crap Shoot 2005, and has placed high in many of the big races. Scott's birds are old line Vandevelde crossed in with Vic Miller Birds. Vern has a variety of performance birds: Engels, GLF, Miller, Van Reets, Callia Janssens, and others. I aquired good birds from Vern. I obtained 6 pair from Vern over a year ago. I bred from them 30 youngbirds and trained them out. No one would race with me so I culled by basket the best I could. I found 3 decent pairs out of the six. From here I established 10 pairs, only introducing two birds, A ganddaughter of Scott's winner and a grandson of Magic Star and Ikon. I sent my second round of youngbirds to Albuquerque to fly with a club down there to test them out. I will fly 40 young birds. Vic Miller bread from 20 pairs of birds, Scott breeds from about 20. They both win big. I am going to keep it at 10 pairs. I will once again only keep the best pairs and children off of them to breed. Next year maybe bring a few performance birds in. Scott is breeding around his 2001 winner, Engels around Den 31, Vic Miller around Almost Perfect. I will find my best bird and establish a family around that bird and its ancestors. Hope it works. 
Now its the other fanciers turn. If I had to tell you the family of my birds it would have to be a bunch of Mutts with winning middle distance pedigrees culled by performance. The Hill Family of Birds. There you go.
Randy Hill
Hillfamilyloft
Randy Hill
Hillfamilyloft


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Well Warren I had a moster post for you and it went away.
> The gist of it was a few questions. Do you introduce other blood into your Ludos? Why did you choose Ludo Birds?
> From studying winning birds pedigrees, I have noticed that at least 1/8 or better of the blood is from an outside source. For instance I have a grandson of Vic Millers "Davids Perfection" First at 400 and 500 vs 2000 birds. The pedigree traces back to 1/4 Jos Thone Blood. Musketier IV 1st Nat. Argenton 93. The pedigree is Grondelaers with a bit of Hofkens and Van Reet.
> I do not see other families of birds on your webpage.
> ...


The full complete answer to your questions regarding my thinking on the breeding of the modern racing pigeon is outlined on my web pages at : http://smithfamilyloft.com/Genetics.htm

This collection of writings from others and the articles I have written, spells out how I breed a performance bird for let's say a One Loft Race. I cross my inbred Ludo Line with my very own inbred "Duke of Earl" and "President" Janssen line. In other words, I produce hybrids for the task. So, does this answer the question concerning the introduction of "new" blood ? Ludo himself is able to secure birds from the best lofts in Europe, and his family tree of pigeons has a number of fantasic birds which were crossed in. 

Even on my own site at : http://smithfamilyloft.com/HistorySFL.htm

You will find, that I am always looking for stock which is better then what I own. I am not interested in great bloodlines of 10 or 20 years ago, I want the cutting edge of what is winning today. And not by American standards with a couple thousand birds, and normally less then a hundred lofts, but European standards, where there are tens of thousands of birds and hundreds of lofts.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Warren that was very informative.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Well conure4u, 

As you can see by now, what I said was right, in that we all have our favorite bloodlines and theories on when and how to obtain new blood. 

I know you wanted a simple answer as to what the best bloodline is to start with is.......but the simple truth is there is no single overall best bloodline. It takes specific types of birds for each course to be competative. 

If you want overall good results to start with, concentrate on obtaining good middle distance birds and build from there. I state good because most newcomers to the sport are not rich enough to buy the top winners from Europe or the USA for that matter. 

You've already been given several good examples of good middle distance bloodlines so I'm not going to restate them....... remember to obtain the best consistant middle distance birds you can from your own area first. Then add in spped birds and distance birds as you decide what distances your want to compete in. 

Lawman


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*There you go again....*



lawman said:


> Well conure4u,
> 
> ..... It takes specific types of birds for each course to be competative....
> 
> ...


Hello there again Law Man, ...... 

Now I know we don't see eye to eye on this subject, so I will try to be careful not to come across like only my way will work, or even that it's the one an only. That is what makes this fun, and I bet we would have some good natured fun and discussions if we were in the same club !  

I am in perhaps one of the most difficult Combine race courses in the USA. We fly from several states and fly OVER the Blue Ridge Mountains,  and host many professional pigeon racers as members. One of them is Fred Smeltzer of 720 and United Pigeon Combine (UPC) fame. Had he followed your advice back in the 1980's, no one would have ever heard of him, or even Ipigeon. See Fred @ http://www.smeltzersprotegeloft.com/

No you see, the man went outside the combine, and with Mike Ganus, brought in top bloodlines from Europe. And the rest is racing history. So yes, if you are a poor working man, get some freebies from your club and combine members, and then spend a decade or two working your way into the top half of the race sheet. If, you have been sucessful in your career or business, and want to play like the big boys, then drop a few bucks and bring in some good stuff, and shake up your club or combine, like Fred did our Combine back in the 1980's and 1990's.

You see, back in the 60's and 70's...everyone had some sort of Sion or Stassart, HVR, Trenton or whatever...then some of this new fangled stuff called "Janssen" came to town, and starting kicking bootie....of course, that was news decades ago, now everyone has some sort of Janssen in their loft, and now change is taking place once again. And the answer is again coming from the birth place of our sport, Europe. 

Your advice Law Man, may be politically correct, and is good for the local club and combine members, because they now have a New Guy they can beat every week !!...... Didn't you say you were the President of your Combine ? I bet the old guys in the clubs and combine loved you bringing in fresh meat like this every week to the slaughter !

Now don't lock me up Lawman, just having some fun with you.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Family that word answers what is a strain maker. If you have a top bird That produces other top birds You build around that bird to spread the blood. In several lofts you will find 3 4 or 5 families of birds. These are related back to key birds. Strain name comes from a person that built around there key birds. Any breeder that ever did well in raceing or showing did thisFirst A raceing homer is that. Now certion areas devolped different approaches Base line production of the modern homer. So mixed line production Youi are just mixing the family line If done right it produces good performers. Are they now muts. No They are still racing homers. Just an introduction of new blood to a family. Are they 1/2 ludlo 1/2 janssen If the base line was that family yes. BUT if it was not ludo or the janssen then NO When birds leave the base loft they change they just have the family base You that new owner makes your program with what you have. Cross the 2 lines BUT look back its been done already by others and people buy a bird and say its such and such. IT is a raceing homer that was family bred thats all. But it came from quality birds and was tested it self. That proved it was a good bird. Now you have something to work with to build off. Is any raceing homer a top or good bird NO you have to start with a few birds that bring into the loft something that helps improve the needs In racing that is performance based birds. And the abilty of raiseing more birds can perform. Can you start with birds that were crossed BUT did well in the races. Sure they have proved they can perform. NOW the question is can they reproduce that in other birds. You find that out if they can your on your way to breeding quality racers. When youyr birds are doing there fare share of winning And doing that year after year Are you not doing something right. People take notice of that. They call they write they want some of your birds. Start with what you consider the bet you can get You can not go wrong Do you need 5 10 20 pair to start. NO you start with 2 3 pair If you can add a pair or 2 the next year from that breeder. But you build on what you have. Can you race with so few birds. Lest see you raised say 18 to 20 off the three pair The first year. I would have trained them out sent them out to say the 200 mile race station Pulled the better birds to look at which could go back into the breeding program. That number would have been say 2 birds they could have been 2 cocks or 2 hens but they were the most consistant young birds raised. May have not been the race winner but the better consistant birds. Then the rest was part of the first old bird team. Now you have 2 more breeder birds to work with. They start that family. After about 3 years your on your way. And can better test your breeders before they enter the breeding loft. It takes time to build that loft. Thats why so many in America Want to buy and buy A good raceing loft came from some one waiting and building. Buy birds year after year you have to test and test every year Never build that loft really You just are playing poker with somebody elses hand. Sure do that with some birds if you want to race and race but be building that family of birds while you are doing that. After say 5 years you see the results of win after win. When you see that your line needs some fresh blood You may have that need right in the loft. Or you go out and fins it. Test it as just any new blood can ruin a whole family of bird fast if not tested. Any person that puts this bird with that bird Soon justs has a that bird its a pigeon for sure but it can not reproduce that edge you need The family line is tore down You have to start over. And a family line can be up to 3 different starin line pairs to start with Building off there performance. More then 3 lines and you have so many faults and off shoot performers to deal with. But If you want to start solid find that person you see as the best in the breed That you can affeord to buy birds from and start there. These breeder dealers remember they breed and deal Sure they have some great birds. And charge that big price. But they buy and buy and sell and sell They make lots of money selling there birds. Just those birds that they charge the big bucks for are the bettter birds the others well there the birds that cost much less BUT they are that much less of a bird. Find that person that bought birds bred them well tested them well and is not out to sell there birds But is willing to share there birds at a fare price. The best people to buy from are breeders not dealers. dealers Buy and buy from whom The breeders And we know some big name dealers They do great in the races also But sell alot of paper


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Good points all
Another thing to think about is that if you aquire birds from local club members you are most likely getting their culls. So you are racing against the best in the club with the worst in the club. You may get lucky maybe not. Just a thought. I also think that you do not have to spend a fortune on good birds. The help a beginner program is a good one. You may also find breeders like myself who do not have competition to fly against who is willing to send some birds to fly against more fanciers. I sent 15 young birds to Albuquerque to fly with a club down there. There are many breeders that just race futurities that may raise you some late hatches. Look for honest people who will help you out. There are many flyers that have a loft full of culls that will be more than willing to give them to you. I have 6 or 8 culls with great pedigrees that I would not give a guy who is serious about racing. They are too big, too small, too slow etc. Young birds are the best bet. If they do not come home you will not breed from them. Race your young birds and test them out. I found a guy whose culls are probably better than anything I could afford and chose 12 birds off his young bird team. They were brohters and sisters to birds he sent to futurites. People are out there that will help you. He bread me some late hatches out of his best stock also. You can also aquire late eggs from breeders and use pumpers to raise the young.
And so Warren does not doubt my thinking, out of the 12 birds I first aquired: 4 were children of Ganus birds, 2 children of Oak Haven Farms Birds, 2 children of McLaughlin birds, 1 a CBS Engles, 2 From Bob Kenney x Vic Miller, and 1 From Scott McCallister X Vic Miller. The only two birds I have added were a granson of GLF's (Magic Star, Ikon, Lady Luck, & My Girl) and a Grandaughter of Scott McCallister's San Diego Classic Winner. 
Good luck finding good birds. 
Randy Hill


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello All, 

As always someone has to mis-quote what’s said!

I have never said not to go outside your own combine to obtain birds, Heck if we all did that the sport of racing pigeons would never have even come to exist.

*As all of us should know (including some overly seasoned veterans);*

1)If you concentrate on speed birds alone……. You cannot be competitive at the distance or even the middle on tuff races.

2)If you concentrate on pure distance birds ……. They don’t mature fast enough to be competitive during youngbirds. Heck some of the distance bloodlines take three to four years to fully develop.

So; the obvious choice for beginners is to obtain the best consistent middle distance birds they can obtain and build from there. (That is for anyone who wants to be able to fly through an entire season, in my course for old birds It's from 100 -600 mi., 100-300 for youngbirds). 

As for Warren throwing down names like Smelter and Ganus; ....... Well he proves my point......... Most of us (especially someone who’s just starting out) don't have that kind of money to throw around. Yes I said money…… and lots of it…… It take a lot of money to import birds period, let alone purchasing the cream of the crop from Europe. 

Now for my next point as to whom has the most difficult race course around? What was it you said Warren,

“I am in perhaps one of the most difficult Combine race courses in the USA. We fly from several states and fly OVER the Blue Ridge Mountains, and host many professional pigeon racers as members.”

I’m, sorry Warren if you live in one of those tiny states back east, (where if you step out of your front door and your in a new county and if you cross the street your in a new state) Now don’t get mad I’m just jesting. 

I’ve been to your blue ridge mountains and I must say I’ve been to few places in this world that are as green and beautiful as they are. 

Hummmmm……. Greeeeeeennnnnn………. Means there is plenty of water for a bird to obtain if it goes down……… wow what a novel concept!

I wonder how good your pampered Easterner birds would be if they had to compete in the southwestern desert. Where there is water a plenty, if you can get it out of a Cactus …… The desert they cross includes the western edge of Death Valley  . Now that does not even include our rocky mountains. On the north course (of which I’m now a member…..as they are kid friendly) our birds have to cross two ranges that near 7000 feet; it’s that or they fly around the ranges and through nothing but harsh desert. 

Now as if have said before, *IT TAKES HORSES FOR COURSES !*I've purchased top bloodlines from back East and from Europe as well. No, I'm not in the same league price wise as Ganus. Your Eastern Birds did poor at best! The birds direct from Europe did better, but still not as good as I would have liked. However they were primarily speed birds and just could not take the harsh condidtions of the southwest. 

It would be like taking a Throughbred that had never raced outside of the eastern part of the US and taking them OOOOH lets say to Saudi Arabia for a desert race. It will be done from dehydration before the race is half done...... You could take that same horse and race it against an Arabian, lets say at Belmont (or any other US track) and the Throughbred will win 99 out of 100 starts. 

_*SO THERE IT IS AGAIN, IT TAKES HORSES FOR COURSES; OR MORE SPECIFICALLY IT TAKES SPECIFIC TYPES OF BIRDS FOR EACH COURSE TO BE COMPETATIVE!!!!!*_

Lawman


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Thats very true. And that is why if a club flies a cinsistant course year efter year. Like many in europe do you can build a family of birds that do well. And you do need both types of birds to sennd the one that can fly the tough race and others. Really even the so called short distance birds They to mature into full seasoned old birds at the 3 year old status. Plus each strain line produces different types of performers. And yes it cost s bucks to buy the top birds. But it is not a have too. Youstart with what you can afford. Its better to give say a tousand dollars for 1 pair of decent birds Then give that same thousand dollars but ten pair of just ok birds. And you really are spendin less money that way. As many buy year after year and end buy agin Start right and you spen less over time. It takes a few years to put together any good raceing loft.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Just a thought. Its my belief that right here in the U S A there are just as many top birds as you find in the other countries. Its just that there is no large flying clubs or combines. As the U S is a large country Where many europe counrties are not tha large. If there were more State races where the wholle state clubs would compete then the big number races would show the top breeders birds more When you can get the thousands of birds in one race you really see how well the birds perform. That way the average racecould 5,000 birds or more At least 2,000 bird races With so many clubs and the people just flying wqith the local members one really does not here so much about the small lofts and clubs as much, And state races just have to be put together and promoted Best way is make those races a money race of some sort And people will fly there birds in them. No different then the state show clubs where the real compition is held the big boys save there birds for the big shows. The big state races would develop the same interest where the people that have and raise good pigeons would rather race there then the small club race where the compition is not as tough that would be where the less compeitive people would go a race until they could move up to the tougher races. This is much better then the one loft races as you race your birds and you control there training. It would take some pushing to sell the idea But it would make the U S stand out as a counrty that can compete. The other countries frown now on U S A raceing and pigeon thoughts on strain and breeding as they know Its that person that manages the birds Not some birds bought from So and so And still call them that strain line. There base line after you purchase them And if they start winning for you they get your your name in the other countries. Here they keep the name of some one who died 50 years ago. or longer


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> .....Hummmmm……. Greeeeeeennnnnn………. Means there is plenty of water for a bird to obtain if it goes down……… wow what a novel concept!
> I wonder how good your pampered Easterner birds would be if they had to compete in the southwestern desert. Where there is water a plenty, if you can get it out of a Cactus …… The desert they cross includes the western edge of Death Valley  . Now that does not even include our rocky mountains. On the north course (of which I’m now a member…..as they are kid friendly) our birds have to cross two ranges that near 7000 feet; it’s that or they fly around the ranges and through nothing but harsh desert.........
> _*SO THERE IT IS AGAIN, IT TAKES HORSES FOR COURSES; OR MORE SPECIFICALLY IT TAKES SPECIFIC TYPES OF BIRDS FOR EACH COURSE TO BE COMPETATIVE!!!!!*_
> 
> Lawman


Well Lawman.....

You're thinking, although I believe is wrong, does have a certain logic to it. 

If your theory were true, then how do you explain "Eastern" breeders winning their fair share of the money at the Vegas Classic ? See : http://www.vegasclassic.com/past_race_results.htm

Last time I checked, Las Vegas was in the south west, and in a desert. Birds from your combine should be scooping up all the money, since breeders outside that desert area, simply would not have the "Horses for the courses" ? 

How do you explain pigeons from Europe which have done well in every combine in the US, or in every country for that matter ? Is it possible that decades ago, when the Janssens were in their heyday, that they had really developed a "horse" for all kinds of courses ?  Or did they simply have better pigeons ? 

I am of the thinking that either you never owned a great "Eastern" bird or "Import", or your management skills never allowed them to reach their full capacity. 

Also, just for the record, I also think a great thoroughbred in condition, on a regular race track, will outrun any other breed of horse anywhere in the world, your Saudi Arabia race track included.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> ......(including some overly seasoned veterans);[/B]...
> As for Warren throwing down names like Smelter and Ganus; ....... Well he proves my point......... Most of us (especially someone who’s just starting out) don't have that kind of money to throw around. Yes I said money…… and lots of it…… It take a lot of money to import birds period, let alone purchasing the cream of the crop from Europe.
> 
> 
> Lawman


 Actually most people in my combine who are getting back into racing pigeons, have already achieved a measure of success in their career or business and are not poor. Most own nice homes in decent neigborhoods, and own more then one automobile. 

Why do pigeon people who may own a $30,000+ automobile or live in a $200,000+ home, feel like they can't afford to invest in decent breeding stock, and to do so, is "Throwing money around" ? No, for many, they simply are not willing to put the money into their hobby. Let's face it, if you are poor, then don't get into racing pigeons, get into tipplers or rollers. 

And let's face it, you can go to a Ganus or a Smeltzer, or many others and spend many tens of thousands and more, and you have no assurance that you will acquire good breeding stock. Boy, if all you had to do was spend some money to obtain instant breeding success, it would be easy. No, even when you are spending thousands of dollars per bird, you will have to go through a bunch of them. It is extremely difficult to obtain outstanding birds. The truth of the matter is, most times you have to breed them yourself. But, that's another post or thread.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Well here you go again Warren,

Again you prove my points for me. 

1) You obviously don't know horses or you would not have stated that they race on tracks in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else that I'm aware of in the Middle East. They race across the harsh Desert....... No Thoroughbred that I'm aware of has ever won such a race......... In fact the only American horse that ever won a desert race was a pure unadulterated Mustang. (Mixed blood based on only those that could survive). Matter of fact Warren
You might want to do some research on the Janssen Bros and their purebreds. Heck Warren If you bother to do the research you’ll find they probably had more Mustang added into their bloodlines than purebreds in the early days. Matter of fact; I do believe almost all of their top winners were based on out crossings (mixed blood that is), not inbreds.

2) Last time I checked in the Vegas race (it was a couple of years ago now) Ganus had I believe close to twenty birds entered under his own name and I believe there were more under his wife’s name as well. I don’t know about you, but most of us out here can’t afford that kind of money. But here again money takes the pot; let’s see how’s that saying go ...... Oh yea, "It takes money to make money" or in this case it takes money to win money......... And while you’re top guns from back east may place well in the western races. I haven’t seen you (as I suggested) or any other average flier do so. So again you make my point for me. 

3) Now as I suggested; the last time I checked Ganus doesn’t import anything put the cream of the crop from Europe or anywhere else. I haven’t seen anywhere on your site where you've been able to do that ether. It’s for certain that the average pigeon flier out there can't. The cost of the import fees alone prohibits this, let along the cost of purchasing such birds in the first place.........

4) And now for my last point (for now); It must be nice of you to believe that only the rich should be able to venture into our sport. Or is it just that you don’t believe that people who are just starting out and have to purchase homes for their family’s, or pay for tuition’s for their children, Should be able to be a part of our sport; or is it you believe they should spend money on their birds first and buy braces for their children with whatever’s left over…..With your kind of thinking on that, the average backyard fancier that just wants to race his birds, or enjoy racing against his own children in competition with other combine members is a thing of the past. *Lets see what was it you said, “No, for many, they simply are not willing to put the money into their hobby. Let's face it, if you are poor, then don't get into racing pigeons, get into tipplers or rollers”.* And here I thought you were a part of this web site to help promote this sport, not destroy it by putting down anyone who believes differently from you, or who can’t spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to build up your version of a family of birds.

Lawman


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## Freeway Loft (Jun 7, 2006)

Lets see what was it you said, “No, for many, they simply are not willing to put the money into their hobby. Let's face it, if you are poor, then don't get into racing pigeons, get into tipplers or rollers”.

My Family doesnt have money at all, we are barley just getting through. Me and my dad have tried to quit this sport and so has my dad's friends, but we can't. Pigeon racing is fun for every1 that understands it and even with all this "fighting" between club members, combines or feds. here we are still raceing. Me and my dad dont give our birds the medication that they need, or any kind of drugs that boost your birds performance becuase we simply don't have the money for it. We compete in Opens or "money races", but when we do, we can only afford to put 1 or 3 birds in the race againts 500 birds. The funny thing last year. I put 1 bird in a 600KM race last year againts over 600 birds. I came 18th. and since i dont have electronic clocking, the bird sat out for an half an hr. so if it went in as soon as it came home, it would have been 3rd. My birds are not off any amazing stuff like Ganus or Alves, or anything like that. There just off people that sold thier birds to us for $5 each. But What ever. you need money to start this sport. But the fun will keep you in it!

Kyle Yost


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Some Info On The Vegas Race*

Some information on the VEGAS RACE. As of June 13, 2006 the GANUS FAMILY LOFT has 12 birds entered,DEBBIE GANUS has 8 birds so GANUS has a total of 20 birds entered. www.vegasclassic.com/ GEORGE


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You know Most of the top breeders of show pigeons Are not rich many were just medium to fare on income. They started with just a few good birds. And through the years rose to the top. Racing homer people they to many did not havethe big bucks. They started with just a few good birds Selected the best each year to breed from and rose to the top. The people with the big bucks Well several of those are the credit to the sport. They bought those higher dollar birds bred them sold birds off them at a fare price to assist the sport. That was done in te show birds and race birds. America today the Racing world stays behind the rest of the world. To fixed on a name And fast results. In the show bird world. They got over this many years ago when top birds were inported in the early 1900s from say late 1800s to mid 1930s. them secect breeds on and off like modenas mid 1960s to early 1970s then the improved themand went on. There has been many a good or top raceing homer brought over from the other countries for a long time and still just a few figure it out. You have to set down a breeding program FORGET the name you know your base line and its history BUt if you just look at it and call it this then that. Are you working on the better flyer or trying to stay with a name. If America can not get it together on races for the birds. They will allways be laighed at by these breeders in the other countries that know when you get birds you have to manage them to get results. How many people in other countries say they fly this strain and that that strain. Sure they say where they startyed and how they managed the birds. But thats them. History of top birds always trace back to top breeders. And those breeders give credit to how they built there birds on some one elses base. But they know to. You can get the best in the world not manage them right and you soon have a bunch of birds that are no good fron raceing at all. A person can only do what they do. Start slow do not ever grab A bunch of birds thinking about flying by numbers getting the drag or such to better the chances IT just takes 1 good bird to win the race. Start with 2 to 3 pair of the best you can get Does that mean they have to be super high dollar. NO you know your budget. how much you can put in at the begining. Go from there. You will if you manage right raise birds that are Better each year. Even the best breeders know you never raise a lloft full each year just a small number of your top birds come each year. # to 5 are the best of the best that given year thats all. Some others are useable And then the others They will not fit your program or help others improve theres. Give them away to people that do not want them for raceing. Its only fare. BUT people take those birds because thy have paper on there parents And sell them to unsuspecting people To make a few dollars and thhen those paeploe can not improve but have bought basicly from the con man trying to just get that dollar. The sport can not go on like this Be honest be fare. Or american raceing will stay at the bottom of the raceing world forever. Now what I said may rub some wrong bUt it is true. HOW did te otherrcountries do it THEY bred those winners. America its time to figure it out I would amost bet money That you will find some of the best raceing homers in the world here in america. There her to work with breed smart sell with respect. The old saying I would never sell a bird that I was not willing to breed from myself Comes from respect pigeon breeders of all types of pigeons. every body knows when that person sell you a bird its a bird that is useable Not a set back. And remember the best bird in your loft today at some point it has to go you have improved or set its quality long enough your line. Those kind of bird go on to help others And top people can loan each other birds that help each other out. Heck just letting a beginer have a round of eggs from your top birds to take and set under there birds helps them. I know top birds are not cheap by no means But a person buys them to help there self first thats what it is about when they sell some of there offspring that does not mean they have to charge as much as they spent And end up getting 50 tiomes more out of the off spring over the years. Thats being a salesman.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*A Joke.....or Is It?*

The standard joke in the EUROPEAN pigeon world is ..........I sold a pedigree to an AMERICAN,.....and I threw in a free bird.lol GEORGE


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

HA HA HA HA...........ROFLMAO........... That's probably truer than ANY ONE here will admit!!!! I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Part 1 of 4....*



lawman said:


> Well here you go again Warren,
> 
> Again you prove my points for me.
> 
> ...


Well...Mr. Lawman, there you go again !... 

If you wanna race across the sand, then I want a camel ! Build a standard throughbred race track in Saudi, and then we can set up the race, my throughbred againest your arab pony. Gonna need to see seven figures up front, .....so you will never get to see that I am correct. 

My real point: The Throughbred is a race horse, around the world, not just on a few race tracks in the USA.

I have no idea what you are talking about concerning the discussion of "Inbred's", in regards to the Janssen Brothers. I was referring to the birds which were imported into the United States from the Janssens Brothers. I don't recall ever saying what breeding techniques, that the brothers used. 

Most sucessful racers are crosses, but I thought everyone knew that, but perhaps you were confused with the terminolgy ? 

With horses you apparently don't recognize the "Mustang" as a seperate breed, which would explain your confusion with horse breeding and racing ? Don't know, but I bet I would take your money at the track !  

I dare say, that more then just a few dollars were "Invested" in my education of the Thoroughbred !....


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Part 2 of 4...*



lawman said:


> .......2) Last time I checked in the Vegas race (it was a couple of years ago now) Ganus had I believe close to twenty birds entered under his own name and I believe there were more under his wife’s name as well. I don’t know about you, but most of us out here can’t afford that kind of money. But here again money takes the pot; let’s see how’s that saying go ...... Oh yea, "It takes money to make money" or in this case it takes money to win money......... And while you’re top guns from back east may place well in the western races. I haven’t seen you (as I suggested) or any other average flier do so. So again you make my point for me.
> 
> Lawman


 Well...there you go again lawman... Making my points for me !!  

A post or so ago, you were telling us...

"I wonder how good your pampered Easterner birds would be if they had to compete in the southwestern desert. Where there is water a plenty, if you can get it out of a Cactus …… The desert they cross includes the western edge of Death Valley . Now that does not even include our rocky mountains. On the north course (of which I’m now a member…..as they are kid friendly) our birds have to cross two ranges that near 7000 feet; it’s that or they fly around the ranges and through nothing but harsh desert. Now as if have said before, IT TAKES HORSES FOR COURSES !I've purchased top bloodlines from back East and from Europe as well.....etc. etc."

I would have thought for sure, that you or at least your combine members would then be scooping all the cash !!!

Now it's someone with birds outside your desert ? Who has better "Eastern" birds !? My gawd


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Part 3 of 4*



lawman said:


> Well here you go again Warren,
> 
> 3) Now as I suggested; the last time I checked Ganus doesn’t import anything put the cream of the crop from Europe or anywhere else. I haven’t seen anywhere on your site where you've been able to do that ether. It’s for certain that the average pigeon flier out there can't. The cost of the import fees alone prohibits this, let along the cost of purchasing such birds in the first place.........
> 
> Lawman


Well there you go again Lawman..... 

What do you want me to do brag ? 

I needed a top hen for my collection. If Zus Red Quinty is/was not the top creme of which Ludo Claessen has made available in 2006 then tell me please, which hen was ? See: http://www.smithfamilyloft.com/NewsFlash.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

lawman said:


> 4) And now for my last point (for now); It must be nice of you to believe that only the rich should be able to venture into our sport. Or is it just that you don’t believe that people who are just starting out and have to purchase homes for their family’s, or pay for tuition’s for their children, Should be able to be a part of our sport; or is it you believe they should spend money on their birds first and buy braces for their children with whatever’s left over…..With your kind of thinking on that, the average backyard fancier that just wants to race his birds, or enjoy racing against his own children in competition with other combine members is a thing of the past. *Lets see what was it you said, “No, for many, they simply are not willing to put the money into their hobby. Let's face it, if you are poor, then don't get into racing pigeons, get into tipplers or rollers”.* And here I thought you were a part of this web site to help promote this sport, not destroy it by putting down anyone who believes differently from you, or who can’t spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to build up your version of a family of birds.
> 
> Lawman


Well....there you go again Lawman !.... 

First of all, can anyone ever remember me putting someone down for believing differently then me ? Most average people think the same, I don't really want to be average. But, I won't put a person down for thinking average.

Where did I say, "It must be nice of you to believe that only the rich should be able to venture into our sport." 

I said if you are poor...don't go into racing pigeons. 

In other words, if you are trying to support your wife and six kids, working as a greeter at Wal Mart, or you are the Fry man at McDonalds, then don't go into racing of pigeons. It is the most expensive breed of pigeon to maintain, train, and participate in. Are you saying he should Law Man ?

Or perhaps you are an over worked, underpaid public servant, pulling down a decent wage but don't want to pay for the gas just to train a YB team, let alone the hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars in One Loft Racing fees. 

So, if you are going to get so stressed over spending some money on your hobby, when you are stressed out over paying for the kids braces, then get yourself some Tipplers instead.

You see Lawman, I do this for fun. I happen to own some very nice Tipplers...and I paid very little for them. They are a great breed to start with for a novice. Especially one on a limited budget.  So, if you can't afford to play, then don't play. Don't get stressed over it, and force your kids to eat dirt.... 

And, take a chill pill......this is to be fun. I have no problem directing a very budget consious person to a less expensive and difficult breed. I think I started an equal number of people into Tipplers as I did Racers this year, and I don't think that destroys anything. I think that is a pigeon lover and a future prospect for racing pigeons. I myself started in so called "Fancy" pigeons myself, and I don't look down on the other less expensive breeds. Heck many people on this site own nothing but wild or recues. Some of my very first birds were ferals, racing at first, was not even an option.

So...if the costs associated with racing is an economic hardship or causes stress, for you or your family, then forget it. It's not THAT important.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What people seem to forget You have different families right in your breeding loft You can cross any of them they are still your base line birds NOt not as closely related. Nobody stays on top by guessing. And if you do not build around several different birds you set only 1 motion to your program. You do not go buy this and that through it to gether and boom your the winner. You were just getting lucky. Many lofts will have 3 4 5 6 differnt famileis of birds Built around the key birds. And add what is needed from there loft of different families. A family of birds have different levels of relationship It takse years to get the family so tight you have to bring in a out cross It how you spread it around. NOw mating Father daughter off the start you get tigt fast. Line breed then inbreed line breeding puts the family together spreading out the birds you are building then inbreeding sets that family together by bring it closer to the key. records show performance. tells you how you are managing te family when performnce starts dropping you know you may be weakening the line. But a ket that is missed is breeding that line hard for to many years. Any bird you have that is your breeder bird you have to keep a valid record showing perfomrnce of the young birds yearlings and old bird flyers of that bird When you see you now have birds that are better you phase that bird out when you see you now have bird as good as it you phase that bird out when you see you raised from it for 3 years and never got 1 bird as good as it you phase that bird out it can not raise birds that are better or as good as it. The old heat the blood up it is in your loft You records tell you what the young birds should do in the cross pairing of the different family lines. Top birds from a family trace back to key birds That show up on your records You have a top jannsen and a top ludo cross them if it works you have 1 more top bird. after all a raceing pigeon is a raceing homer Look at the different strain they look some what alike. And after allin the begining there were just a few racers and then people bought and built different families. When all you birds look just alike they all start haveing the same faults you have to offset to build to improve Those key birds help you off set weaker birds improveing your line. Pigeon raiseing is a art You have to study the birds you raise to figure how to proceed. Buying birds is so easy But raiseing birds thats a breeder You could go out get 3 different base line strains and build a super loft I mean super loft. If you know how to breed. And was not the victom of a con man selling paper. But an experianced breeder sees in the birds what they know they like less easyer to fool them.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Ah...to be Young again...and know everything !*



re lee said:


> What people seem to forget You have different families right in your breeding loft You can cross any of them they are still your base line birds NOt not as closely related. Nobody stays on top by guessing........


Oh Re Lee.....,

You always seem to understand.  

Ludo had/has four different lines...simply study the families. Same with Janssens, I have two different Janssen based SFL USA lines, are they not still SFL birds ? If one of them is crossed with SFL Ludo or XYZ, although a "Cross", is it not a SFL bird ? People do get hung up on Peds, Names, and terms like "Pure Bred". But, we were all young and inexperienced once, were we not ?  

Cased closed.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

We were young Warren And we some how learned that breeding pigeons is a art. Im glad I met what I think are and were some very great pigeon people through the years. They started teaching me when I was just a kid. And you know They did no something about Pigeons Because people still are learning from some of them today. And people still Either seek them out or remember them. A good friend of mine was taken on a tour of some of the top belgium lofts a few years back. He noticed those people bred down the line And new there birds plus he noticed those birds were seemingly managed somwwhat better then some of the U S birds. Basicly said what we have been saying The top lofts Are built off the key birds And yes your birds are your making You give the credit it do but you know If you get results It was you that figured it out. And I bet you do not go out every year on a buying spree. Not that at times a person does need some real outside blood BUt they mostly do this along the orginal line. But like I said Its been fun learning over the years from what I consider some very good pigeon keepers that keep us in check on how we should breed the great and good ones. Its no secert start good end good


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Warren,

Your atypical of someone who when caught in the mouse trap, turns and tries to change the talking points by pointing to anything other than what they themselves have done (or in this case said). 

Try and explain away what you've said anyway you want........ Everyone can go back to your previous posts and they know exactly what you’ve have said, when you said it, to whom you said it and how you said it. You know what I’ve pointed out to be true or you wouldn’t have tried you personal attacks on me.......... You’ve tried them in the past against me and they failed and you know it. 

You can’t win an honest argument; nothing makes it more blatant than your attempt now to call me an overworked, underpaid public servant………. 

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, it’s people who act as you have on this web site, in club houses and in combines, who give our sport a bad name and reputation. 

You’re the one who needs to take a chill pill and stop making personal attacks on anyone who doesn’t think like you do. You’ve done it before and continued your shall we say commentary on others until they stopped posting comments on this site. How many people have you and others like you run out of this sport? Good people who simply don’t come up to your way of thinking, or are not a part of your little click. 

Those whom I’ve seen act this way (not only in pigeon racing) but in all walks of life and from every economic background have one thing in common; they act this way to bolster there own lack of self confidence and put others down to boost their own self esteem. In other words they put down anyone who looks, acts, or is in anyway different from themselves; so that they can in turn feel like the big shot and good about themselves.

The sooner people who act this way leave our sport, (at least here in the USA) the better our sport will be. There are many whom I consider friends in the sport, many are top fanciers; from Europe and the rest of this world including; home grown here in the USA. None of them got to the top by putting others down for not thinking like they do. They simply got to the top by proving their birds and systems consistently worked better that the competitions; 

Good luck to you in your endeavors Warren, as I consider those who act as you have to be little more than the noisy, “tick on the back of the hound dog” as my grandfather would have said. Based on the comments and personal attacks, I now consider you little more than background noise, as it puts everything you’ve ever posted into a different view. 

If you really want to better our sport; Consider leaving it before you do more damage!

Lawman


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Consistency*

I recieved my RACING PIGEON DIGEST the JUNE 15 issue last week,and finaly got away from the computer long enough to read it.Much to my supprise an artical,by BOB ROWLAND, HORSES FOR THE COURSES,is on the subject of strains.Here in part is what he said "Now when we compare strains of birds whether they are old strains or new ones,none of this matters.It is the individual GOOD PIGEONS that we need more of and this is determined by which pigeons are working on your course.If it were so simple as to use a certian strain,then why is it that we have brothers and sisters to some of the very good ones that can not race as well or reproduce the winning genes? The answer is the GENETIC PACKAGE each individual bird possesses" In an earlier post I said consistency is the name of the game.Build around consistent birds and you will build your oun strain or family that will do you justice on the race course you fly. GEORGE


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

george simon said:


> I recieved my RACING PIGEON DIGEST the JUNE 15 issue last week,and finaly got away from the computer long enough to read it.Much to my supprise an artical,by BOB ROWLAND, HORSES FOR THE COURSES,is on the subject of strains.Here in part is what he said "Now when we compare strains of birds whether they are old strains or new ones,none of this matters.It is the individual GOOD PIGEONS that we need more of and this is determined by which pigeons are working on your course.If it were so simple as to use a certian strain,then why is it that we have brothers and sisters to some of the very good ones that can not race as well or reproduce the winning genes? The answer is the GENETIC PACKAGE each individual bird possesses" In an earlier post I said consistency is the name of the game.Build around consistent birds and you will build your oun strain or family that will do you justice on the race course you fly. GRORGE



George................you are a good man..........I CAN NOT read Bob Rowlands articles............most of them just go on and on and on and when I get through I don't know a thing I didn't know before.........don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's a good guy and a good pigeon person but there's just something about the way he writes.......reminds me of a long winded preacher on Sunday morning...........


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI RENEE, Yes he does jump around a bit. But so do I,but that can be explained being that I come from NEW YORK.LOL GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*New Ideas Always Meet Resistance....*



lawman said:


> Warren,
> 
> Your atypical of someone who when caught in the mouse trap, turns and tries to change the talking points by pointing to anything other than what they themselves have done (or in this case said).
> 
> ...


 Well Mr. Lawman, 

If I were simply a member on this site, I might respond differently... 

You don't make it to my station in life with a thin skin....and as some of the ole guys would have said...I was flying pigeons sonny when you were still in diapers !.... 

All my posts, the 1,000 + are here to read, the good, the bad, and the ugly. So the one thing I agree with you on Mr. Lawman, everyone go back and read my last 500 posts or so, and perhaps you will gain an insight into the way I think. Maybe, just maybe...unlike my Lawman friend here, you might be able to benifit from my experience and ideas.

Never intentionally did any of the things you accuse me of, but I will let the readers and members go back over all of them to see for themselves. If you felt that I ever made personal attacks on you or anyone else, then please.....I stand corrected, please forgive me, although I don't think any of that is true.

I consider myself a life long student of the art we all love and enjoy, pigeon racing. I have ideas, thoughts and a way of thinking, which may be different from your current level of understanding. Right now, you take offense to these views, in time, you may come to embrace them, but it may take a few decades.... 

I suspect that your last post is overly defensive, which only you could explain. Perhaps in time, and with more experience, you will understand why I voice the ideas that I have. Not that I am always correct, but in time I think you will come to appreciate the points I have made.

To all readers, please understand, my intention is not to hurt feelings, or to make anyone feel poorly. My intention is to help create some real racing pigeon champions, and perhaps a new American Racing Strain, and sometimes, a few eggs need to be broken to make an omelet.....  

Not every person, or personality , is up to the task. My efforts are not aimed at those seeking mediocrity...but those seeking excellence...



Yours in the Sport,


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

george simon said:


> I recieved my RACING PIGEON DIGEST the JUNE 15 issue last week,and finaly got away from the computer long enough to read it.Much to my supprise an artical,by BOB ROWLAND, HORSES FOR THE COURSES,is on the subject of strains.Here in part is what he said "Now when we compare strains of birds whether they are old strains or new ones,none of this matters.It is the individual GOOD PIGEONS that we need more of and this is determined by which pigeons are working on your course.If it were so simple as to use a certian strain,then why is it that we have brothers and sisters to some of the very good ones that can not race as well or reproduce the winning genes? The answer is the GENETIC PACKAGE each individual bird possesses" In an earlier post I said consistency is the name of the game.Build around consistent birds and you will build your oun strain or family that will do you justice on the race course you fly. GEORGE


 That is some what incorrect. Why. Because even with the best birds in the world You could think to have. YOU will still raise birds that are not as great of raceing quality as others. If it was so easy as to pair top birds to get top flyers it would not be a breeding challenge.. Consistant birds yes they are many times the better breeding bird to choose because even though they were not the winners they were more consistant 1 reace win does not make a bird that can be a breeder. Birds do have to adapt to the flying region. But good birds adapt fast any body can figure with all the raceing clubs then each club has the better flyer. That better flyer put with all the other better flyers then it boils down to quality A person can be on top in different clubs but not be able to compete as a national flyer because the birds lack the depth of quality. I think if some raceing homer people researched the top show pigeon keepers they would learn alot. And some of the top raceing homer people in the world practice the same idea. You have to get to where you develop what is called the minds eye To understand more I have met people that well they bought a top bird Bred and bred it different ways never produced good birds They thought is they may have to pair it to thirty different hens befor they find the right hen. If you have not raised birds just as good as your breeding bird in 3 years why would a person think they can do it in say 5 years. Its time that bird goes. And if you raised better birds the better bird can now take its place in the breeding loft. Raceing pigeon are basicly judged by entering it in a race The bigger the race the better you know how well you have managed you program. Those race records are the main key for breeding and future improvement in your loft. You could start with just any race birds And improve them Yes some would really take some work over the years. Others that start out with the best they can get have a faster start. BUT if they do not manage there program well They best birds are soon just a pigeon. Can not race much further then around the block. Because birds not managed right revert backwards not forwards. And agin just a small number each year have the key to go forward with. Thats nature we are playing with nature when we breed any bird or animal. Natures pigeon is closer to the feral type and it left alone has not changed much at all sure they have cross bred but the crosses revert back to a more feral stage. It basicly is a art to breed good pigeons in any breed type Not evey one does it not every one can do it raceing homers are misunderstood by many. They have to be bred right each and every year to give what you are looking for will any one ever achive the best of the best NO but its fun trying. I am not a know it all. but I spent most all my life raiseing pigeons And results show hard work now its not hard work really but its setting down the birds finding the way to take them forward because they go backwards so easy


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Read between the lines !*



re lee said:


> ...... That better flyer put with all the other better flyers then it boils down to quality ..... And some of the top raceing homer people in the world practice the same idea...... You could start with just any race birds And improve them Yes some would really take some work over the years. Others that start out with the best they can get have a faster start...... It basicly is a art to breed good pigeons in any breed type Not evey one does it not every one can do it raceing homers are misunderstood by many.... I am not a know it all. but I spent most all my life raiseing pigeons And results show hard work .......


 Amen and Amen...but so easy do these bits of wisdom fall on deaf ears....


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Read My Post*

RE LEE, It look like you missed the part in the post that reads.If it were so simple as to a certain strain then why is it that we have brothers and sisters of the very good ones, that CAN NOT race as well or reproduce the winning genes.In simple terms all birds bred from a winning family are not winners and not all birds from a winning family can breed winners. GEORGE


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

On a lighter note:
I was studying the pedigrees of my birds and found to my astonishment that they are truly mutts. I went 5 generations back give or take a few and found to my asstonishment that my 12 foundation birds descended from 23 so called Belgium and NL strains and 7 US Fanciers had their hand in the makeup of my birds. To my suprise and for Warrens ears my bird down from Magic Star aka. Ricardo from Ganus is down from Ludo's DE 43 or Blauwe 43 NL 2400343-88. He is a great great grandson to be exact about 6.25% Ludo. He decends from the Magic Star side from Borgmans crossed with (Ludo x Klak). My pure Engels bird has Grondelaers, Van Reet, and Vandevelde in his pedigree. My pure Vic Miller has Jos Thone in his. This just goes to prove a point, if we go back far enough in our pedigrees we will see a cross somewhere. Janssen from Van Boxtel and so on. The new article on Art Hees tells of his crossing in speed birds to his short beaks. So in closing I will leave my opinion on the best strain of pigeons by listing the faniciers that had a part in my birds. For as most of us we feel that are strain of birds is the best. I will not trace the back to the Dianosaur only 5 or so generations. 

Belg and Netherlands:
Delbar, Klak, Van Boxtel, Janssen, Borgmans, Ludo Claessens, Meulmans, Van Rhign Kloeck, Grondelaers, Soontjens, Herbots, Hofkens, Van Reet, Engels, Vandevelde, Verbruggen, Piet Valk, Desmet, Romein, Huben, Jos Thone, Roodhooft, and Vanderflaes

US:
Peeman, Ganus, Vern Clausen, Sonny Scott, Bob Kenney, Scott McCallister, and Vern Crawley

This was somewhat fun to do. Kind of like doing the movie Kevin Bacon thing. I will let you know if any of these mutts fly any good. Good luck in search of the best most perfect strain.
Randy Hill
Hillfamilyloft


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Your number of different strains sounds like a large mix. But if you look at the racing homer in general. First it was a breed cross that set its performance. There was about 3 breed crosses for the belgium strains of raceing homers and I believe near that number for the English strains. But Now that the core has and was set many years ago. The raceing homer is a breed. Strains are just family type birds nothing that makes them so different then the other racing homers. BUt a family is a proven set of birds that were bred down the line to enhance performance. Now with that said. A raceing homer is that As for the many strain names you have on your pedigrees. Your birds was consistantly cross bred to other lines. Does that mean they are not any good Not really. Does it mean they are muts NO they are still a raceing homer. It just means that if you want to establish a family from these core birds. You have to work somewhat harder keeping out the different weaknesses from so many lines of so called strains. Can you produce flyers that do well yes. Like it been said over and over. If you look at that It make clear sence. If you go to a person that has bred ,raised and tested there birds These being racing homers. They raced them. They bred up a family of birds that proved to do good in the races. You buy your birds from that person. And if you do not go to a group of several breeders No more then 3 Your birds are easyer to work with. Because you are not trying to breed from many lines that each hascertion faults that may expose its self. Thats all you can do in any breed of pigeon if you want to sucseed At a faster rate. What makes a family / strain is crossing in the best desired quality as you build your performance. It is not some magic type of birds. Other people have started the worek for you that work has taken on the name STRAIN. there results made other people want there birds. But if you get birds from all over you have to expect more set backs at first. Now with so many people out the breeding the different base lines some of those Strain lines are spread around all over. but each person has put there hands on the bredding that changes what a strain is about. You go to the person that maintained that certion qualitry within the line They are not really the starin any more but foundations from that strain base that have been bred for improvement. Yes some people go out and buy differnt birds often and manage to do good A pedigree is just a record somebody kept that record of there breeding. The race results on that pedigree is very important That tell the consistancy of that bird then the others asthey appear on the pedigree. That is a key to the abilty to reproduce a bird that may do you some good. First forget the strain name after the birds enter your loft You have to work on putting them down with your program. SDure if every bird you have came from that one person You have a ket line base of birds that you can breed from that may offer some of the same results. But often people can not do that hare in the U S because on racing homers there are not tomany people that have built up a working family of birds. They have gone out and thought they were buying better birds to often. It takes several years to see results that show you are now building in what you want. Cross lined birds they say heats up performance. It starts that new family of birds Your family core. People get rid of a l;ot of those birds cgeaper here in the U S because it says on the pedigree its a mix. That is a big mistake if the bird did well for you IS it a mix IT is still a racing homer how is it a mix every known strain out there show a cross of different families that improved the base. With exsepsion to the few that stayed with the one key source But the orginal birds were a strain cross from that later strain. When bought right people see improvement in just a couple of years. And stay the road they go on to see more. They know it takes time And they know to look to add that extra key to further the program. but they also know to not over load the spread of this with that it weakens the program. The saying get the best from the best means start right end rigt if you develop the minds eye How do you test your birds you race them with other peoples birds That tells you wher you are going in your loft you have gone outside your loft raced them with the birds of other lofts they showed how the competed agins the other birds. At what level of competition you tested them in its up to you. But you tested aginst outside birds. The old saying if you never compete with your birds pretty soon they all look like champion birds in the loft. But when they race then you know how to set your breeding program up for improvement and know what you may need to purchase to better improve your line of birds In racing homers I have seen several people you canvisit there loft And then return 3 yeras later and they just about changed there whole stock of birds over to the newer fad of birds. Thats why they stay behind year after year and change agin. To many want to win Or be at the top of the race sheet. That is not good at all for the sport of racing because to much is put on winning and not even enough put on breeding winners. That is the ART to becoming sucssesful . Its fun to win. But raceing is not about winning its about going forward in yoou quest of breeding top birds. Thats why just a hand full of people do this in racing homers. Others just want that win and if the birds do not win very fast They change lines or get out or moan and groan because that person doing the main winning in the club is cheating or something alse. When that main person winning well that person is doing something right breeding there birds. We are supposed to learn from the ones that bred right they set the pattern for others. They have no magic they have results. I think raceing homers are far to misunderstood by many because they never learned the program of breeding the good ones. To much goes into the emotions having to win or get mad. People come and go to often in the clubs. They are not helped to understand raceing that much. There just a number in a way. pushed into getting in the races as fast as they can. Clubs should at least pull together and support there new members in fact all there membes help teach what breding pigeons is about. Show it as what it is a art Visit the members lofts look at the birds offer up better birds forget about I never sell any of my birds to the club member they might beat me in the race. Are not the club mambers your friends in the sport When another person does well with birds you helped them get doent that show your birds can help others Basicly there is alot of greed in the U S racing homer world Thats blunt but there is. And alot of phoneys selling paper to the unsupecting new comers Look I bought this bird see the pedigree I got it from so and so. Well so and has some good birds. You find out leter he sold you his junk but gave you a pedigree that said things about the other bird but not about the one you bought. Was a time when clubs pulled together and worked with each other. Those days are going away And less people are truely learning about pigeon keeping just a hendful figure it out and do not shere it with there local members so the intern learn more. Now this is not meant to defame any one person at all. But if you read and see that it is better to be in the sport for the art of it then one day you will be that consistant winner in your club or else where because you forgot winning and learned to breed to win was the whole key. A good winner learns to except looseing because it teaches you how to win


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Warren you just don't know when to let a dead dog lie do you? Or is it that there is just no fool like an old fool? 

Chip on your shoulder? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure you are old enough to understand the question in the heading, but apparently you are angry with me for some reason. Did you have a bad day ? Did I say something which hit a nerve ?

Don't know what it is that I said or did which makes you so angrey. Perhaps it is about money, I made it the old fashioned way, I earned it. And yes, I have an advantage in that my lofts house breeding stock which ran six figures. 

If it means anything, or places me in a better light, I always hire off duty police officers to patrol my home and loft property at night. 

I support the local FOP and have relatives who work in law enforcement although at the federal level. At any rate I am sorry if my posts offend you.

But you do come across as a young know it all rookie at times.
__________________
Warren

http://smithfamilyloft.com/ 

*I don't know about everyone else on this web site but I for one think you've finally admitted you didn't build a family……. YOU BOUGHT IT!!!!.........*

Must be a pretty painful admission to have to make that you've squandered six figures and still can't consistently beat your competition.

Still can't get away from the personal attacks either............. you and I are closer in age than you might imagine. As for what you seem to be calling arrogance, I call Confidence and I don’t know any Officers anywhere that survive long without it, at the federal level or below. Oh and by the way I make more money working for a Police Department than any FED ever thought of making……… Of course back east, many departments including some from your home state barely give their officers enough to feed themselves let alone raise a family on, so I guess I can understand the confusion.

You know I remember back in the 80's when the Olympics were held here in Los Angeles. The AU in combination with the olympics sponsored a pigeon race. The birds were released late in the evening and only had about an hour to reach our area, before dark. Old man Henson took that race (and everybodies money) with a hen out of his two dollar cock bird. He called it that because he bought the bird at a local feed market auction for, you guessed it, two dollars. That old cock bird was unbanded and scrawny to say the least, but he founded old man Hensons entire loft. Anyone who was able to obtain one of his offspring concidered themselves quite lucky indeed. 

Just though it might give a little insight....... 

two dollars ......... 

six figures ......?

Lawman


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The janssen brothers what found a bird that was basicly kept in a rabbit hutch And built around it . It helped making the janssen strain. It is not so much dollars its breeding in the key.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Re Lee
Good ideas. On the part about who I got the birds from and whether or not he sold me junk with good pagers, I do trust him. For most of the birds he bread for me for no charge. I agreed to take the club over and help him out. There is no reason for him to give me junk. I have seen the bands of his birds. GFL, MCLOFTS, OHF etc. As for my birds being a family. The core of the birds are Vic Miller birds crossed to the fanciers I mentioned before. I have introduced three birds to the mostly Vic Miller Birds. I bread them into these Miller Birds. I will assess them by confromation and the basket. Create a family of birds and breed to the line or family. Yearly I will try and introduce one or two Key birds to keep the family fresh. I will look for performance birds when I intorduce new birds. My last bird was a Grandaughter of Scott McCallisters Snow bird winner. She also has Vic Miller in her pedigree. My goal is to breed a 300 mile middle distance futurity that is very consistent. As for trusting my source, I have no doubt these are birds from his best. He has helped me and others out to get started. It is to his benefit for us to test his birds and race against him. He enters futurities and we help him in the selection process. I have also offered to house breeders for him when he is ready to retire, so he can still fly futurities without the day to day caring of the birds. He does not offer me his culls, but breeds me birds of his best pairs. Yes I could mail order pedigrees and get a free bird from someone I do not know or simply have a mutual relationship and friedship with my source. 
Thank you for your concearn
Randy Hill


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you look at some of the old line strains They were family bred with the loft families some for thirty years befor evr going outside the loft to buy outside blood. When you start with 3 non related groups of birds and line bred then inbreed and watch your program you are building a family and in the loft You can have several different families so they can cross over to diffent groups in the loft. Far as futurity Well you are sending out young untested birds, You have to reliie on background breeding to helpyoupick the bird you send. THEN it is part luck You bred the birds right and sent the bird you picked it may be a dud or a winner. So its about 50 50 Half the breeding half the luck you picked right. Back years ago Most futurety races you were sent bands and the bird was banded with that band that was the bird that went to the race. Less choice today you get to use your own band and can pick better which bird you elect to enter.better chances on picking the right bird. But You do not have to go out side your loft after you have built up your line of birds as often just need to do that from the same person as you are building That way you stay in the line. You are working on. Some poeple have bred for lighter boned birds to reduce weight and the birds look great pick themup the feel lighter. They fly easyer. Its all your breeding Idea. Some peop;le look at the wing to see how it look for speed long straight wing the bird can glide and not work as hard . Arched wing it can produce speed at the shorter distance. but slow at the longer races. But thats just what people grow to notice in there birds those structures that enable you to see the different aspects that bring your birds there performance. Some people can look at a young bird at three weeks at tell you if its a cock or hen. and most often be right. some people can see a bird come out one color and know it will probably be a decent flyer Because certion birds from certioin birds have shown when a certion colr comes it very often turns out well. Its not bred for the color its bred for performance it just happens that color has thrown back to a performnce gene. Thats getting to know youyr bird there make up there visual desingh structure of the better birds Does it work sure it does. You have learned what to look for waht to breed for and what helps youimprove Now you do not try to make all the birds lookalike you offset with each bird to balance what you strive for. when all the birds look alike they all have near the same weakness. And it makes it harder to keep them productive in raiseing quality birds. Some race winnners they are just that winning biirds but they neveer make a good breeder bird they lack the right needs other then the can race and race well . Often its those stock birds that had alot of what you need but lacked the abilty to be that winner. But had very good consistancy that showed they could pass on what you wanted for results. The number of wins a bird has also is the better test that number is consistancy. It becomes basicly the same it show that stocking that bird it can bring results. Often a bird gets a few wins or just 1 win boom its a breeder Those second third some times first clock birds or that constant winner that showed it won often came in second on the clock and such Is better then that win miss win bird first 5 consistant clock birds that do it weeek after week be it win or drop to number 5 they show the breeding


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Easy Guys, Easy!*

I am wondering if it might be wise to take a step back from this issue. I think from all of the posts that have been made that there are obvious opinions on this subject. In my mind the pigeon sport is somewhat unique in it's ability to reward its participants regardless of the level that they are willing or able to participate. If one looks at horse racing as an example, it is a fairly wellknown fact that if anyone wants to compete in that arena you are talking 7 figures or more just to get a descent start in the sport. Between breeding stock, veteranary care, boarding, training, campaigning, travel, etc., etc., etc., it is a huge commitment.

In the pigeon sport however, there are much more opportunities for everyone to enjoy some level of success, be it with a $10, $100, or $100,000 investment. First of all we enjoy a hands on activity where we are fortunate to have intimate contact with our animals on a daily basis. I can guarantee you the horse racing community can't say that. Everything from their daily care, to veterinary care, to feed, to breeding, to training are all handled by ourselves. I think this gives us a much more intense, intimate sense of gratitude and satisfaction when we see our birds come home from that race or even that training toss. We are very fortunate to have an activity that can provide us with such pleasure and fulfillment just in our daily interaction with our charges.

I really feel that it is nobody's concern or business to worry about how much an individual can or will invest into his pastime. One of my biggest rewards since beginning to come back to the sport are the wonderful people I have communicated with, many of whom are through this site. I am proud to say that, although we have never met, I have had many conversations with Warren Smith and have found him to be a tremendous mentor. I am sure that there are many others on this site and elsewhere, that have been wonderful mentors for others. It is these relationships that I personaly treasure and that again I think are somewhat unique to our sport.

In the end, all that really matters is that you get out of the sport what you want, weather that is winning the South African Million Dollar Race, or winning the heart of your son or daughter when they pick up a young squab that you bread for the first time and you know that you were the reason for that moment. Maybe we can all step back and appreciate the joy everyone gets, at whatever level, through the participation in this wonderful thing we call pigeon sport.

Just a thought

Dan


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pigeon keeping started out as a back yard hobby and from that hobby people learned. Are racing homers over priced today Yes they are You look at show birds they go much cheap yes you can a thousand dollars for one But you pay less to and breed a good line of top birds if you breed right. Free birds 2 dollars birds or high dollar birds you still need to learn about proper breeding management if you decide to compet at any level. That is mainly what I have been trying to point out. Not how much a bird costs But it is best to start with the best you can It is just easyer to do that. But yes I will not post on this subject any longer it is not really going any where.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello Learning,

Your right about one thing, nobody care's how much an individual can or will invest into our sport. That’s why I don't talk about how much money I've personally spent to acquire the birds I have. I don't much care to have people throw down that they have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their lofts and birds as if it somehow magically makes them better........ It doesn’t!!!!!!

In the end it doesn’t matter if they spent that much or not, as they will be judged by the basket........ 

Same as the guy who bought the two dollar bird at the flee market........ 

To me it’s the end results that matter and how you got there...........

It doesn’t much matter if you become the bonified absolute best in the world, if you lose all your friends and family along the way........... For me it’s the enjoyment of working along side my son's to build our family of (some here would call them MUTTS) birds. They will all be judged by the basket and only the best will survive in the long run.

Doesn't make me better or worse than the next guy, I just choose to walk down a different path than some others on this site; course when anyone chooses a different course there is always someone there that will make them a target. I’ve spent most of my life being a target of others diatribe, both in the military and in law enforcement. So it’s really nothing new to me………..

As I’ve said before it’s “HORSES FOR COURSE’S” and you have to know what type of course you have and the distances you wish to be competitive at……… in order accurately acquire the best birds for your given situation.

1)	Do not concentrate on speed birds alone……. Unless you only plan of flying youngbirds and/or short distance in old birds. You cannot be competitive at the distance or even the middle on tuff races with speed birds alone.

2) Do not concentrate on pure distance birds ……. They won’t mature fast enough to be competitive during youngbirds. Unless you want to specialize in long distance racing as some of the distance bloodlines take three to four years to fully develop.

3); the obvious choice for beginners is to obtain the best consistent middle distance birds they can obtain and build from there. (That is for anyone who wants to be able to fly through an entire season, in my course for old birds it’s from 100 -600 mi., 100-300 for youngbirds).

SO THERE IT IS AGAIN, IT TAKES HORSES FOR COURSES; OR MORE SPECIFICALLY IT TAKES SPECIFIC TYPES OF BIRDS FOR EACH COURSE TO BE COMPETATIVE!!!!

Lawman


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Robert, 

1) I'm glad to see/have you back posting in the forum. I know you have been "back" for a bit now but I'm really glad you decided to stick with us.

2) I really like your common sense philosophies in racing pigeons and in particular, North America. I don't race pigeons but you seem to have a handle on things and from all those years under your belt

3) I'm just peeking in this convo, and don't have anything to really say or offer so I'm leaving


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> 3) I'm just peeking in this convo, and don't have anything to really say or offer so I'm leaving



If the truth is told, you're probably the smart one from the sounds of things.............


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Robert, I just want to add that I'm so pleased that you're back posting your great advice. I really enjoy reading everything you write.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Happy Fathers Day*



hillfamilyloft said:


> On a lighter note:
> ........I was studying the pedigrees of my birds and found to my astonishment that they are truly mutts....... To my suprise and for Warrens ears my bird down from Magic Star aka. Ricardo from Ganus is down from Ludo's DE 43 or Blauwe 43 NL 2400343-88. He is a great great grandson to be exact about 6.25% Ludo............ So in closing I will leave my opinion on the best strain of pigeons by listing the faniciers that had a part in my birds...... For as most of us we feel that are strain of birds is the best....... Good luck in search of the best most perfect strain.
> Randy Hill
> Hillfamilyloft


 Thank you Randy,

I guess a lighter note is indeed a welcome relief..... 

Nothing seems to get the ole blood flowing faster then a "discussion" on "Strains"..... 

I am reminded of "discussions" way back in the HS days when, when the "Debate" was over "What is better a Chevy or a Ford"....you never knew where such discussions would be taken, I personally did not engage in such discussion myself, but it was sometimes fun to watch. 

Once in awhile it would lead into which neigborhood you lived in, if your father was blue collar or white collar, where your father worked, if your family had money or was on relief. Sometimes it ended up in the principals office, because someone's mother was then brought into the discussion and then ended up as a fistfight in the hallway.... 

Just like in this particular case, all kinds of unrelated issues and information has been brought to bear, but none of this really sheds any light on the subject matter. 

Your multi-family lines which you refer to as "Mutts", could become a "Family" and then in theory, could move from Randy Hill Family to the Randy Hill Strain.

The reason why a person should work in this direction ? Consistency.

The one area of agreement I think I have with my "Western" counterpart,...  I like the ideal of a general purpose, All Around general athlete. The kind that can win from 100 to 500 miles. But, that is simply a preference, as opposed to having short, middle and long distance family lines. 

Re Lee has gone into detail as to how this comes about. In the end of course, if the indivual birds being used do not have the "Winning" genes in the first place, then it will take much much longer to achieve success. You must keep in mind, you do not have an unlimited number of generations to work with. 

My last two cents here on the subject: Acquire the best birds you can, from 
a closely related successful family, which have the desired genetic material you seek, and build from there. Your environment, management, and selections going forward, will form the foundations of your own family lines. The actual, real, honest to goodness genetic "Quality" of the individual foundation birds you start with will mean more, then any "Name" or pedigree which might be attached to it.

And now, so I don't end up in the Principal's office, I will get off the bus...Happy Fathers Day for you Dad's out there !


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

just peeking in myself and checking in on things .....and wishing all our fathers a Happy Fathers Day!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Remember Best of the Best ?*

Now that I think of it, this thread is really a continuation of a thread started in April 2005. 



Best of the best 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you had a choice of the best racing homers in the world. What would you choose and why That line. And what would make that line better for you then you already have Or will be getting.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10164&page=5


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