# recessive red question.



## spirit wings

does a rec. red bird lose the red color as it matures and then it is just white. what does recessive red really mean.


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## Lovebirds

spirit wings said:


> does a rec. red bird lose the red color as it matures and then it is just white.


I don't think so.



spirit wings said:


> what does recessive red really mean.


I don't know........


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## MaryOfExeter

Recessive red shouldn't moult out white unless it is actually a recessive red mottle, in which it would become more white after each moult.

Think of recessive red as just a phenotype color. It manipulates the feathers and makes them produce a red color. A bird may be genetically blue or ash-red, or whatever, but if they have two recessive red genes, then it takes over and covers up their original color. So that bird will breed regular colors unless the recessive red gene is kept up in the family.
Recessive white is also very similar. It also covers up the genetic color. The gene itself actually causes the feathers to not produce color, thus ending up with a white bird, even though it is genetically blue or whatever.


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## Keith C.

I have both recessive reds and recessive red mottles and the mottles do keep getting lighter while the regular recessive reds stay mostly the same.
I have one cock that I hatched in 2000 that started out red and white with a well defined red bar that is now almost white with a little red ticking.
Keith


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## spirit wings

Keith C. said:


> I have both recessive reds and recessive red mottles and the mottles do keep getting lighter while the regular recessive reds stay mostly the same.
> I have one cock that I hatched in 2000 that started out red and white with a well defined red bar that is now almost white with a little red ticking.
> Keith


good to know, thanks. the birds in question are mottled, so I may be interested in buying them.

Thanks Becky, how do you remember all that stuff amazes me. now, if the two mottled rc reds pair and hatch, would the young ones be the same. color? or just a % of the time. what may happen if mottled rec red bred to white w/ bull eye.


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## spirit wings

Lovebirds said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know........


well alot of help you are!


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## MaryOfExeter

spirit wings said:


> good to know, thanks. the birds in question are mottled, so I may be interested in buying them.
> 
> Thanks Becky, how do you remember all that stuff amazes me. now, if the two mottled rc reds pair and hatch, would the young ones be the same. color? or just a % of the time. what may happen if mottled rec red bred to white w/ bull eye.


I don't know how I remember it all either 
If two rec. red mottles mated, you'd get all rec. reds and I'm not sure about whether they'd all be mottled or not. I'm guessing the majority, if not all, would be mottled.

If a rec. red and a rec. white mated, you'd get all normal colored birds, carrying traits for red and white. You need two genes for each recessive trait in order for it to show.


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## MaryOfExeter

I'm not sure how recessive red and recessive white pass down when you put them together. Or which is more dominate... 
Bill, Frank, or George should know.


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## jbangelfish

*Here's what I think would happen*

I'm not positive on this one but I'm pretty sure that you could have a recessive red that was pure white. 

In other words, if you had two recessive reds that were split for recessive white, you would produce some recessive whites that were actually recessive reds. They would also either be ash reds, blues or browns, depending on the real base color beneath it all. Recessive white eliminates any and all color, at least that we are able to see.

Moulting to white is a different deal, can come from grizzle or agates, whiteside and maybe other factors. It is not usually a complete moult to white, except in the case of seraphims, which were developed to do so. I don't know what all is in them to make this happen but I'd guess that not all of them turn pure white.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

Ah, okay. I figured you could have rec. red whites, but I wasn't sure. That could be very confusing when you have...let's say... a recessive white, recessive red, ash-red check carrying blue  The description gets long quick! The amount of things that can be passed on and the amount of punnett squares you have to do also piles up


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## jbangelfish

*Hi Becky*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Ah, okay. I figured you could have rec. red whites, but I wasn't sure. That could be very confusing when you have...let's say... a recessive white, recessive red, ash-red check carrying blue  The description gets long quick! The amount of things that can be passed on and the amount of punnett squares you have to do also piles up


That's why I don't do Punnett squares, too complicated. If you want exact numbers, they work but pigeons don't work in exact numbers. It is a game of percentages, luck and time. I only care to know that I will get roughly 50% of something, 25% of another and so on and these numbers are usually alittle off, sometimes way more than they should be. You can do them in your head and understand that they are only approximate numbers.

Some popular breeds like rollers or fantails have so many genes bred into them that it can make your head swim. What they produce becomes almost a crapshoot and it would take many years to find the patterns or numbers that you would expect or you might never find them.

Working with two or three or four different genes is not terribly complicated but the more you add, the more complicated it becomes. Each factor has a way of making an impact on the appearance of a bird, whether color, intensity, pattern, dirty, sooty, smoky, whatever, they all change how a bird looks and many if not all of them make an impact even when heterozygous. Some are very subtle but as we learn them all, we may learn how to find all the genes in a pigeon just by looking at it, at least those that alter it's appearance, even in the most subtle of ways.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter

Yeah I only do the simple punnett squares, with easy traits  I can do the 16+ box squares but it takes too much time


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## rudolph.est

If I remember correctly the white patches in red birds seems not be the related to grizzle. Most sources I have read says that recessive red inhibits the expression of grizzle much like the check does. Is that true Bill?

Since we're talking about recessive red, I recently bought a recessive red homer cock. There is a picture of him in my Homers album. He shows a little mottling on one wing shield (only four or five white feathers). But he has four white tail feathers as well as a few upper and lower tail coverts. He's rung 2004. Will his mottle increase? Is he what is called a red mottle, or a poorly expressed white-tail or some kind of pied or what ... I think breeding tests with him are going to be interesting.

Sadly (or gladly) he's taken an interest in a grizzle hen, and I think I might let them have a round of babies, though I was hoping to mate him to the blue bar hen to see what the red is hiding, but the F1 with grizzle might do the same. The F2 will show me what grizzle on recessive red does.

Kind regards,
Rudolph


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## jbangelfish

*Hi Rudolph*



rudolph.est said:


> If I remember correctly the white patches in red birds seems not be the related to grizzle. Most sources I have read says that recessive red inhibits the expression of grizzle much like the check does. Is that true Bill?
> 
> Since we're talking about recessive red, I recently bought a recessive red homer cock. There is a picture of him in my Homers album. He shows a little mottling on one wing shield (only four or five white feathers). But he has four white tail feathers as well as a few upper and lower tail coverts. He's rung 2004. Will his mottle increase? Is he what is called a red mottle, or a poorly expressed white-tail or some kind of pied or what ... I think breeding tests with him are going to be interesting.
> 
> Sadly (or gladly) he's taken an interest in a grizzle hen, and I think I might let them have a round of babies, though I was hoping to mate him to the blue bar hen to see what the red is hiding, but the F1 with grizzle might do the same. The F2 will show me what grizzle on recessive red does.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Rudolph


It used to be thought that recessive red inhibited grizzle but I think it might be because most of them are also spread, which does inhibit grizzle, or at least changes it. Spread is part of a good recessive red pigeon. Take it down to t pattern and you get agates, which moult in white in varying amounts.

I, as well as many others, thought we were looking at grizzled recessive reds I(mottles) but many of them are just agates, no grizzle. They can be hard to tell apart and maybe test breeding is the only way to prove what you have. If you have a red mottle that throws grizzles when mated to non grizzle, it has grizzle factor. Agates keep getting whiter and bred together can result in whitesides. Again, this is just t pattern and recessive red without spread factor. This bears out in what almond breeders have and why they produce agates. You don't need almond to get them but they show up in almond flocks because the right combination is there. Spread is avoided in most almond breeding because it turns the base grayish, ruining the deep yellow red base color of classic almond. T pattern blue is the base for classic almond, also kite and het recessive red, hence, the above showing up.

Grizzle reds will have white feathers in the nest, agates moult them in later. Probably can have both types together, making grizzles that continue to get more white over time.

I also have recessive red grizzles that look very grizzled, probably no spread factor in them.

It is hard to say if your red will get more white, only time will tell. It sounds like an agate but maybe not. This usually starts at the shoulder, making a rosewing. Throw in pied and more white seems to spread into the picture.

Good recessive reds are almost always on ash red base but a brown base doesn't work bad either, maybe not for show, don't know but I've had them on brown and looking good to me. The blue base recessive reds usually show some bluish in the rump and sometimes the belly, depending on what all is in them.

Bill


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## dimerro

Rec. red grizzle non-Spread: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_1/ZDWEIKNXGJNVADFPWTZ
Rec. red Grizzle Spread: http://dinamergeani.sunphoto.ro/15b_partea_1/ZRBUFFUNIFGLDAELEKJ


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## Print Tippler

Old thread yes yes, but no need to make a new one. I'm little confused on a couple things. I bred two black mottles together and i got a good black mottle from the bird fist put feathers on. It didn't come out all one color. It appears similar to the parents and looks pretty stable already. So not all mottles start off one color then. I also ask someone about when i received some really black mottles and i ask them if they started off all black and then moult, he said no they look they same when the feather up as they do later. As far as the other mottles i bred, they are have a lot of pied or whiteside in them and most only have a few black feathers in the wing some only one or two. There offspring do seem to start off for the most part all white in the windshield. I did have at least one show a black feather. As for RR it looks the same, at least one young RR mottle i have looks very similar to how it father looked, i didn't breed the bird. I also have two other RR mottles which look like they might get little darker.

My second question is pepper-head or a grizzle head in a mottle. What is up with that? all black mottles are pepper heads but ive seen some with all black heads, As for my reds some are more solid red heads while others are pepper.

Last question, Mixing a self RR with a mottle RR would give a 50% selfs?

you can view the reds here.
http://s1139.photobucket.com/albums/n558/CorbinG/Red English Tipplers/


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## Shadybug Lofts

Is this bird red or yellow or recessive red


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## Print Tippler

that is an ash red saddle and its also a cock because it has those little blue flecks on the shield. Only cocks will show that because they can carry to genes for color, which means he is also split for blue. Recessive red can not be made into a saddle pattern.


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## MaryOfExeter

Print Tippler said:


> that is an ash red saddle and its also a cock because it has those little blue flecks on the shield. Only cocks will show that because they can carry to genes for color, which means he is also split for blue. Recessive red can not be made into a saddle pattern.


Ditto everything you said. It's t-pattern as well.


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## re lee

Print Tippler said:


> that is an ash red saddle and its also a cock because it has those little blue flecks on the shield. Only cocks will show that because they can carry to genes for color, which means he is also split for blue. Recessive red can not be made into a saddle pattern.


Tell me why resessive red can not be turned to a saddle. All it would take is the work to build and set the color.


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## Print Tippler

well recessive red cant be controlled i think. I was going off what Becky said in a different post. But it makes sense. The only Recessive red birds i know are RR self, RR tiger grizzle/mottle and RR nun color. Becky would be able to explain. The only "organized" RR ive seen is the nun. From what ive read and what not RR should only be self, we do not let understand how white is able to be seen on a RR bird.


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## horseart4u

that red saddle is he he missed marked because of that white feather in the shield?


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## Print Tippler

Its not a saddle, its a magpie pattern. Here are some more examples i just found

If you see here, i was having problems opening the pages but there are some, as you can see some are in RR

http://www.google.com/search?q=magp...m=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1320&bih=722


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## Shadybug Lofts

horseart4u said:


> that red saddle is he he missed marked because of that white feather in the shield?


 If your talking about my bird, that white feather only can in since this last molt it was never there before.


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## Print Tippler

oh, didnt think you were talking about his bird haha. i believe mis mark means whole parts of the shield is missing color and over mark is obviously more color off the shield


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## MaryOfExeter

Because recessive red masks most modifiers and we haven't even figured out what causes mottles in recessive red. It isn't simply tiger grizzle alone. There are other breeds that have pattern white and recessive red from the looks of them (like the Nuns, Helmets, and Scandaroons, for example). I don't know the genetics of them however. I don't know how the white genes effect RR, other than recessive white, which masks RR. What I can say though is that I have yet to see a recessive red saddle bird. They have always been velvets.

That white sided bird posted could possibly be toy stencil, one of the few modifiers that can be seen on a recessive red bird. This gives you the white bars on RR priests. Similar to the white winged archangels except we're working with RR rather than bronze.


Speaking of which, bronze can look very similar to RR.


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## MaryOfExeter

Now I'm wondering if the "red" and "yellow" priests aren't actually bronze. A lot of Danny Joe's have dark tips on the flights and/or tail.
http://colorpigeons.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=11&page=1

Tippler/brander bronze looks very similar so that could be what's going on in at least some of these birds.


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## Print Tippler

i agree, the yellow looks a lot more like gold Archangels than yellow. I mean the tips in some of those flights were very dark, it would have to be bronze. Some of them don't show it as much as other. The nuns are still red though.


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## re lee

Look a the red gazzi modena. it is resessive red. look at other birds that have a set resessive red pattern ON white. Like the RED LAHORE Again it just is work Say take a ash red saddle homer over a resesive red self. And go from there you would start getting resessive red that carrys blue perhaps ash The main probelm with MOSt resessive red race birds they are carry and showing blue. But bred back over red to clean them up Which again take time you get that better color. Or even easyer Take a yellow saddle over resessive red And you would produce it faster. Color times markings plus setting the markings All is just time and work BUT fun seeing it go forward. A book tells storys and a person learns a foundation Doing it the person lives it. So just try a path and you will get there. You could even out cross the breed line then rebuild the line Thousands of people have done it But again takes time to get what you want.


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## Print Tippler

the red gazzi modena is not red, that is definitely bronze. First, adding another color like that colored head has never been seen on a RR. Also the main thing is look at the flights, they are black tipped (just like tippler/ brander bronze) They take a bronze and either spread it or t pattern it. Also look, it has a blue tail.









As for the red lahore looks like this one. Its hard to tell if its RR or not. It definitely looks like it but it just idk. Lets see what Becky thinks


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## Print Tippler

This one below looks red. Show quality RR are supposed to be a nice deep color. Like mine are a light color and i guess easier to tell also my self has a paler tail. Non show quality will often have a pale tail and pale flights. Also the head may be darker. These show quality ones can look close to some bronzes it seems.










This is one of my bird, it looks just bronze









I have another one but would have to take a picture of it tomorrow, it must also be bronze now that i think about it.


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## Print Tippler

Alright i just stumbled upon this bird. It has to be bronze but looks very red. Becky, there must be a difference between tippler bronze and brander bronze. One of them is much lighter red looking. So with birds this much red, but obviously bronze. I think the best rule of thumb is to say if you see black tips its bronze.

Tippler bronzes


















Brander's bronze


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## Henk69

http://meeuwenclub.sierduif.nl/private/avi2002.htm










Recessive red pieds should be possible for every pattern of pied. 
Plus some pied mechanism only work for recessive reds eg a red specific whiteshield.


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## rudolph.est

As Henk specifies, pied markings apply to recessive red, just as it applies to all other colors. The mutation(s) cause a loss of pigment in certain areas, whether that pigment is red, blue, ash-red, indigo, smooth or spread etc. This means that Gazzi, baldhead, white flights, magpie, and most other 'pied' genes will express similarly on recessive reds.

There are recessive red nuns, magpie tumblers, antwerp smerles, and more. Maybe using a Modena as an example isn't optimal, since modena bronze interferes, and the Modena pictured earlier is genetically classified as blue t-pattern modena bronze gazzi marked and dirty, not recessive red.

The fact that recessive red also has a 'mottle' gene tends to confuse people. The mottle can only express on recessive red, and turns some of the red feathers into white. This is a totally separate genetic trait (which is not perfectly understood as yet and may or may not be related to white-side recessive red).

This recessive-red mottling should not be confused with 'pied' markings. An easy way to distinguish pied from mottle, is to look at the difference between the nest feather and the adult feather. Mottles have red parts that become white with the moult (or sometimes after successive moults), while pied markings stay the same throughout the life of the bird. A good example of the extreme whitening effect of mottle is the Seraphim pigeon.


> "..., the Seraphim are all genetically recessive red or recessive yellow, but at maturity manifest the Seraphim's white angel color. As young birds, before the first molt, they show patches of this underlying yellow or red color, and look quite jolly and playful. It is not until after the first, and in some rare stubborn cases the second molt, that the magic occurs and they gain their angelic pure white appearance."


Even more confusing is that a some recessive red birds may be both pied and mottled ... but I am not even going to touch that controversy.


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## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> This is one of my bird, it looks just bronze


This bird does not look recessive red at all, nor do I think it is just bronze. Even an unimproved homozygous recessive red would show a much clearer red in the shield, and would not cause the lacing of flights and tail, nor does any of the bronzes as far as I know.

I assume everyone will agree that it is a blue based bird. Could it be T-pattern indigo, or maybe some opal combination, or maybe even spread indigo with bronze? Opal and indigo are the only (simple) genes I know of that can produce a 'lacing' effect. 

Still, it is a very pretty color. If it were in my loft, I would pair it to a blue bar to figure out the genes.


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## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> Alright i just stumbled upon this bird. It has to be bronze but looks very red. Becky, there must be a difference between tippler bronze and brander bronze. One of them is much lighter red looking. So with birds this much red, but obviously bronze. I think the best rule of thumb is to say if you see black tips its bronze.


Bronzes are somewhat less certain than some of the other genetic factors, because there has been less research and breeding examples. I am not sure whether brander bronze and tippler bronze are the same or not, but I agree that both show dark tips to the flights and tail.

An important note brander bronze: for good bronze expression, the bird has to be heterozygous for recessive red. This can be seen looking at the Schoorsteenveger coloration of dutch high-fliers (as in your brander bronze picture). 










These birds are genetically homozygous blue T-pattern bronze split for recessive red.

If the recessive red is not present, the bronze expression is much reduced and the bird is mostly black with bronze highlights, these birds are called 'roetjes' in dutch (a name derived from the Dutch word meaning 'soot') and are often even referred to as kite.










(Pictures from a Dutch article on 'Brander bronze' Schoorsteenvegers, more info can also be found in a Dutch article called 'Erfelijkheid bij de NederlandseHoogvlieger Schoorsteenveger' by Hans Bulte, but I cannot find a working link to it to post here)


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## re lee

Print tippler Have you ever saw a red gazzi modena in person. They are resessive red. The bird you posted looks more like a bronze gazzi. I have had red gazzis before. And seen several over the years. the point is and was A person can put resessive red into a saddle pattern if they wish to do the work. And I bet some have done it already. And in the loft is where results come together. There is more to reading about pigeons The person has to get in the loft and breed into the birds what they want. And that my friend takes time. AndThis thread was about resessive red. Going to shows seeing the birds in real time. Visiting lofts. asking the breeders about there colors. Some do the work. many see the results. And most just breed and raise from set colors. Remember Bronze is not nor never has been resessive red. A good resesessive red should be a rich chesnut color throughout. And a resessive red showing a blueing in its tail and flights Can be cleaned up by breeding better colore depth. PICTURES are never as good as seeing the real thing. just as learning from a book is never as good as learning from doing


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## Print Tippler

Here is my problem, the tippler bronze, show tippler which is all bronze with the black tips looks more red than that owl and the capuchine. You add in white flights to that tippler and now you can no longer tell conclusively.

Relee, my point was that these bronzes can look RR. I mean this was what Becky was saying so dont jump on me for talking about bronzes.

As for RR mottles. Rudolph are you saying that a red nittke can never have a white feather turn red? As for white sides mixed with mottles i believe i have many of those. I have 4 black mottles all probably mixed with white to give a fully white shield on at least one side or a few mottle feathers. I also have this in RR.

the other side of this bird has a few, like 3, mottled feathers



























This was a nice bird, but i let it out and it flew the coop and i think it went back home about 7/8 of a mile away


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## Print Tippler

Looks like the bird already moulted out some red



















This is what i think of as a bad tail, i wasnt aware or thought it could go all the way to a blue tail


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, a lot of poor quality RRs have blue leaking through, if they are blue based. Yours are probably ash-red based.


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## Print Tippler

Yeah, but the tail would still be a solid color right? it wouldn't be ribbon. I think its actually blue cause its in a heavy moult right now and there appears a lot of blue. But what did you concluded on certain birds being RR or bronze? Whats your opinion on the above birds. Is it possible that some birds being called red are bronze but since they have white flights you cant see the tips black?


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## re lee

Lets use the horse as a color a bay colored hores would be more like a bronze. and a sorrel colored horse would be more like a resessive red. And some of the birds you showed with there tails look more like the red is faded The mikly facter shows up in some reds. and the red fades to a white and creamy white. Just like some tail marked birds the color depth looks fade out on some and strong on others. Color is a mask and to make the mask stronger you increase the color depth by selective matings. All is time. Now your line of birds Most in the viewed pictures You have NO real set colors but a pied effect. To increase you pair the heavy marked birds tegher OR go out side the line bringing in desired colors or cross the line and resetting the color and the breed type. To clean the red you would do the same. breed good color over the lesser and select the better colored off spring Again time and work. Do you have a person near or far that has the color line you want to use. Take a look at a red carnue picture resessive red carnues are a good deep rich resessive red. And were used over other breed lines to add and bring color depth to those birds YEARS ago. Just as lfcl tumblers were even used in some modena to add color and head width years ago by several people.


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## Print Tippler

I'm not looking to improve my reds. I'm going to try to breed some red white sides but that's about it. Before i had just black mottles and a couple others. So i went off about a variety of birds to increase my gene pool. Not looking for showing. As for comparing red and bronze...well there is about 8 different bronze colors all of which look different. And red can have a variety of shades. So its kinda hard to compare the two in such a general way. the birds above which i called tippler bronze, the one sitting in a bowl looks much more red than some other bronzes. It seems like my point keeps getting passed by. If you take this bid below and breed white flights it starts to look like RR


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## MaryOfExeter

Yes, I do believe some birds called "red" are actually bronze. But not all of them.


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## Print Tippler

how bout this?


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## re lee

You have lets say true bronze and true resessive red. then you have modified color depth.. Color depth again is controled by breeding. Just as the bronze bird sitting the nest It is a useful color to put on your birds. And building back and forth set the color depth is what you work on. remember to Most all bronze colored birds have the dark beak resessive birds have the horn colored beak Alot of time bronze gets refured to as modena bronze As a good colored bronze modena has the high color depth to use as guide to building that color. White is not a color And it to comes is several depths. Used to said there are three colors to white. And mikly fade shows up in several red birds And even in bronze. And some red birds can moult in white even at 5 6 years of age where they used to be self all over for the years. The birds shown many have a large white of most there body. and small areas of color With NO pattern to fix the area of color Not really mottled but like white pied birds. You have to close the split some and Use the birds like the bronze sitting the nest to increase the color pattern. Then ON the tail I saw NO ribbon to it As most ribbons will have an allmost bar towards the end of the tail that is the ribbon. Color the beak you see better depth in the bird color on bronze And I am not sure but i think a certion pattern has to ver ride the white to get what you are looking for in bronze. But think Of the BASE color depth and the fade that creates what you are calling the 8 different bronze depths.


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## Print Tippler

Im sorry but your post was kinda hard to understand. When i said there were 8 different bronzes i think they are 8 different genes not just depth. As far as a bar tail, i was referring to that modena i posted, which i got off here. No duh mine don't. My point I don't think a RR bird can have a ribbon tailhttp://mnpa.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=110338339ird

As for my birds *im not looking to improve them*. If you dont want to call them mottles that's fine, but they are genetically mottles so yeah... Except one. If they have mottled feathers or a mottled rump. Im not looking for any help improving the color of my reds or bronzes. Before i only had one bronze so i wanted to know how to get more but already got that handled.

To see the 8 different bronzes click below. I dont think they are all one gene with just different depths, but who knows.

I dont know what you consider the generic bronze or the generic red. Since both can have many different genes in them to change depth or shine.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/types-of-bronze-48660.html


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## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> I dont know what you consider the generic bronze or the generic red. Since both can have many different genes in them to change depth or shine.
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/types-of-bronze-48660.html


There is no generic bronze, nor any generic red. Since we're talking genetics here, we only try to work out which genotype causes which phenotype.

We know that two copies of the recessive red gene, on a bird otherwise wild type (called unimproved recessive red), causes birds to have red in the head, neck, back, chest and wing shields, to be reddish blue in the rump and tail. The red can be improved and intensified by other modifiers (spread, dirty, sooty,bronze?), but the color that is described for show purposes differ from breed to breed and country to country.

I have no similar data about many of the other bronzes, since most of these genes are only seen in breeds which have many other genetic factors involved, like almond, T-pattern, spread. The only bronze which is well described it Modena bronze, which causes bronze bars when added to wild type.


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## re lee

Print Tippler said:


> I'm not looking to improve my reds. I'm going to try to breed some red white sides but that's about it. Before i had just black mottles and a couple others. So i went off about a variety of birds to increase my gene pool. Not looking for showing. As for comparing red and bronze...well there is about 8 different bronze colors all of which look different. And red can have a variety of shades. So its kinda hard to compare the two in such a general way. the birds above which i called tippler bronze, the one sitting in a bowl looks much more red than some other bronzes. It seems like my point keeps getting passed by. If you take this bid below and breed white flights it starts to look like RR


You stated 8 different bronze COLORS. To me you was talking about color depth of BRONZE. I am not over stating your ideas And had no knowledge of what you are or wanting to do with your birds other then I thought you wanted to work on your colors. And you talked on resessive red. Color depth leads to what you except and how it is set. But good depth of color becomes the base for a guide. Just like i read from the other thread you liknked your points to. Bronzing in youngbirds that moult out and is gone. That is baby feather and show alot in different colors Even some blue bars will show that. But as adult birds the true color has moulted in just as beetle sheen moults in. A good mottle to ME is mottled throughout. May be except in certion breeds to be less And mottle in some breeds improves by the 3rd moult. Where you live is there several people or a club you can join or visit And pictures just like several here does not do real justice to the color without seeing live color it can look the same or near the same. AND there is what over 250 different breed lines of pigeons. If all colors were seperated to all those breeds There would be a mixed up idea. Bronze is bronze no matter the breed Depth of color deturmines the shade produced. And desire to except stops at that level. I am glad you enjoy your birds And want to work on what you desire. I am not aginst you I enjoyed pigeons for many years. And color is only a small part of pigeon keeping. Sorry I offended you.


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## Print Tippler

were good.


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## george simon

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Is this bird red or yellow or recessive red


*Hi Shadybug, The bird is a red check saddle YOU HAVE A VERY VERY GOOD SADDLE HOMER this bird is of SHOW quality. Have you shown this bird, and from whom did you get this bird ? There some very good breeders of saddle homer in your area that is PA., NY,AND NJ. Are you a menber of the Saddle Homer USA club? * .GEORGE


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## rudolph.est

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Is this bird red or yellow or recessive red


This bird is ash-red (dominant sex linked mutation) and not recessive red at all. It is uncommon for recessive red to show this much pattern, even in the unimproved form seen in homers.

It really has perfect saddle markings. Very impressive!


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