# Preventative measures for the ferals



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Friday I caught another sick pigeon. Nancy was out of town so I took it to her replacement. She stated the pigeon had canker.
This morning (Sunday) I wend out to feed the big guys and almost stepped on another dead pigeon that had found it's way to my back door.
I caught another this afternoon. This one doesn't seem as bad as the others, however, it was unable to pick up seed from my patio & didn't even care that I was cleaning the patio. It kept looking into the animal carrier, that I now have on hand, apparently wanting the seed inside. I opened the door and when he finally found his way to the door he walked right in. That really isn't normal for a feral is it? I think it's time to lace the bird baths with some bleach (Tori suggested that) and perhaps some tums (I believe someone mentioned that for calcium) I realize these are ferals, but if I have a preventative measures thing going on wouldn't that help? Maybe?
And yes... I did read the posts re: a visit to the vet. nancy has the 3 living birds & I have emailed her about that. If there is something I can do around the yard, anything, I will get it done. We are getting close to a doz. birds in less than 4 weeks. If this plan sounds OK, please let me know. Or if you have any other suggestions I am ready to hear them. Thanks, Cindy

[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 29, 2002).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Cindy,

I'm sure sorry you are continuing to find deceased and sick birds.

I think the bleach in the bird water is a good idea .. at least it couldn't hurt anything by giving it a try.

As to the Tums for calcium, it doesn't seem that lack of calcium is a specific problem, but putting out a container or two of pigeon grit or oyster shell grit would be a good idea. They would not only get the calcium boost but also additional minerals they need as well as the grit to help grind up their food.

I guess another thought would be to order some of the water soluble medications from a pigeon supply house and "dose" them through the drinking water. That would negate using the bleach, however .. can't do both at the same time. Perhaps alternating a day of bleach water with a day of medicine water would work. Giving meds in the drinking water is haphazard as you have no way of knowing if any given bird is getting enough to do any good, but here again, it might not hurt to try. If we knew for sure what the problem is we could come up with a better plan of attack.

Hopefully someone else will be along shortly with some good ideas for you.

I do know that what you are already doing (providing the birds with clean, fresh water, good food, and a clean environment to spend time in) will help.

Terry Whatley


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Plain, generic, chlorine bleach at 1 tsp per gallon of tap water has been shown to reduce the spread salmonellosis (paratyphoid) and some other organisms in lofts. This amount of plain bleach safely acidifies the water--and the salmonella organisms don't like that!







Bleach can also help to arrest mild yeast infections in their early stages.

So, yes! That would help!









The Tums are a stop-gap measure for readily available calcium (Rolaids would be okay too), and are acceptable to treat a suspected deficiency. Judy likes to use the fruit flavored ones. Better still is Calcionate Syrup. And of course, proper grit should provide needed calcium.

Truthfully, I don't know what effect bleach would have on calcium in the water--it's a powerful oxidizer.

In extremely hot climates, 2 tsp of bleach per gallon is recommended.

Do not use medications or vitamins in bleach treated water. Chlorine can combine with compounds in the medication to make poisons; and it's oxidization effect destroys some vitamins, such as C.

Apple Cider vinegar at 1/4 cup per gallon of water is an alternative--one that we use in the home. While it acidifies the water slightly, and offers that benefit, it is not a disinfectant in the sense that plain bleach is, nor is it an oxidizer.

Outdoors, I'd go with bleach. Indoors--vinegar.

--Ray

PS. You are most kind to care as you do!


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi, Terry!









--Ray


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Forgive me Whitefeather, but could you quickly summarize what therapies you and Nancy have tried and what the results have been?

Baytril? Toxiban? Flagyl?, etc?

Thanks!

--Ray

PS. What of the pigeon that walked into the carrier?


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## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Everything from this end is guesswork but I'm wondering if the bird that would not pick up seed, could not pick up seed. Is it possible there is an epidemic of canker going through this flock? 
When you have a chance to pick up a pigeon again, would you check the mouth and throat?
If you still have the bird that walked into the carrier, could you also check that one?
The bird that walked into the carrier is ill from something. It's looking for a safe place.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Terry & Ray.
Thank you for responding so quickly. 
My plan of action will be to start with the bleach.

Ray, I haven't done any of the treatments as I have never been trained, however, Nancy first began with the an injection of Ringers.
Second: I believe she said she was going to give them Baytril.
Third: She tube fed them. Then observed them. I have taken a total of three pigeons to her.
She is quite vague about what she is doing. I email her asking how they are doing and she just says, "The same, no real improvements, but they are eating on their own" Tomorrow I will be taking yet another one to her and I am going to ck. about taking one of these fellas to her vet. She was out of town this week end and left a number of a lady to use if I needed any help (see Fred's canker thread). After reading Mary & Fred's reply I really feel bad about that one.
Sorry, I didn't understand your PS question about the pigeon walking into the carrier.
I was explaining that this afternoon I was cleaning my patio and a lone pigeon was walking about not paying any attention to me. I put a bit of seed on the patio and he couldn't pick any up. He was just scraping his beak in the patio. He was however, looking into the animal carrier that I keep on the patio, apparently wanting some of the seed inside. I opened the door and he wandered around seemingly looking for the entrance. When he found it he just walked inside. I though that was unusual for a 'well' pigeon to do. Perhaps he isn't feral. But I would still like Nancy to take a look. Cindy 
oops... I was reading Fred's canker thread and I addressed my reply to you, Ray. I have no idea why I did that. Sorry to Fred. Must be stress.


[This message has been edited by Whitefeather (edited September 29, 2002).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Fred, Well... The way things are going I won't have any problem finding another sick pigeon. Sorry to say.
The three I have taken to Nancy did not appear to have canker, however, the one I took to that woman on Friday did have canker. She was the one that tried to take it out of the little guys mouth. Yes, I do still have the one that walked into the cage & yes I will check it's mouth. Thanks again to everyone for putting up with my repetitious threads. Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Cindy

Not being able to pick up seed is another symptom of PMV. One of my birds (Blackie) came to my attention because she was oblivious to people, pecking at the pavement but not picking up seed. She was so hungry that when I put her is my shopping bag she immediately started pecking desperately at the spilt seed in the bottom.

Offer her seed in a deep dish, so that she doesn't need any skill to pick it up...that will show whether she can do it.

I think, but am not sure, that you can treat the water with canker medicine for one day...withhold the bleach on that day.


Cynthia


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good Morning Cynthia,
Unfortunately, I am becoming all to familiar with PMV symptoms. 
Yes, I did put seed in a dish. Just checked on her and she is about the same. I will get her to Nancy this AM. 
The little guy I caught Friday walked right into my shed (I was mowing the lawn & had the door open) so I was able to to him before he realized what he was doing.
I was keeping my eye on him so he wasn't in there long enough to get hurt & he was easy to catch as I don't have much stuff in there. When I checked him out I could smell a foul odor. My first clue was canker. Sure enough he did have it. 
Well, my fine feathered friends are waiting for their morning snack. Will post on the disposition of this little pij later. Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good Morning Fred,
I do not see any visible signs of canker in the little pij that walked into the carrier.
Cindy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

With all respect intended, since Nancy is not too communicative, a series of unambiguous questions will have to be asked. Good intentions aside, sitting on information doesn't help matters. We need to know treatments and durations and results with reference to times. Otherwise we're swimming. Do what you can...









Very probably, "Silver Bullet" time! If not, what is the alternative?









--Ray

[This message has been edited by raynjudy (edited September 30, 2002).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Ray,
I agree with you. I spoke with Nancy today, she said she is giving the birds Baytril, keeping them hydrated & quite, at first tube feeding (however, the three are now eating on their own). She did say (and I believe you mentioned it as well) taking in samples for testing can be very costly & they may not even have the same illnesses. If this is a CNS disorder, perhaps their symptoms will remain for their duration and they will make wonderful 'pets'.
I know I have been carrying on about what is causing this. However, even if we find out, I am not working with a group of pigeons confined to a loft or aviary, being able to isolate each sick bird, we are talking about 30-40+ ferals here that visit every day. There is obviously no way to isolate each & everyone of them. Correct me if I am wrong, but we are facing a 'no win' situation until they finally get so sick they end up on my lawn & from there we can treat them. I will continue with the suggested 'preventative measures' and pray that helps. I really don't need to take up anymore space on this topic, so, if you would Ray, please email me your "Silver Bullet" recipe and I will gladly pass it on to Nancy.
I appreciate the input and support you all have given me. Cindy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

You're absolutely right about the situation at hand with the feral flock.

But I'm still fuzzy on what, if anything, has worked.









Judy & I pretty much default to Fred's "Silver Bullet" list.

Check your e-mail...

--Ray


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## Wild Dove (Apr 9, 2002)

I'm so sorry to hear of your pigeons' plight, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing all that you can for them.

Just a little note to add...
Canker, (or Trichonomiasis) is an "opportunistic" disease. Most pigeons carry it, and live with it, showing no symptoms until stress, illness, or injury causes it to rear its ugly head, (or protozoa in this case). 
I am just guessing that some of the ill pigeons you are picking up are exhibiting signs of canker because they are weakened by something else, (the first stages of your "mystery disease" perhaps). I am concerned that the pigeons with canker should not only be treated for the canker, (Metronidazole is one medication used), but treated with a course of Baytril as well. I suppose the reverse wouldn't be a bad idea either...the pigeons being treated with Baytril should also be treated for canker. It might be something worth mentioning to Nancy.
Above all, I am so thankful that you are there to keep an eye on this situation.
Wild Dove


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Good Evening Wild Dove,
Thank you for your reply and suggestions. They are greatly appreciated.
Well, I'll tell ya, I just can't let these sweet things down. Every morning at about 6:30 they are lined up on my roof waiting for their morning snack, along with the ducks and finches waiting on my lawn. Then about 3:30 in the afternoon they gather on my back lawn, sunbathing or frolicing in one of the three bird baths we have for them while waiting for me to come out and give them their afternoon snack. They give me so much pleasure the least I can do is try to protect them & help them when the need arises. Unfortunately, the need is arising much to often. 
I realize there isn't anything I can do (being ferals) but when I watch them enjoying the peace & quite of my back yard, I have to wonder which one will be the next one. Sometimes I find myself watching for 'symptoms' rather than watching them just having a good time. 
Apparently the word has gotten around that my back yard is 'friendly' territory and that is a good thing.
Actually only one of the five living showed visible signs of canker. I realize that doesn't mean the others don't have it. I will email Nancy tonight with your suggestions. Again Thanks, Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Just a thought. I was cleaning the three bird baths this afternoon (which are large planter bottoms that sit on the ground) and was wondering if the little bit of bleach I am now putting in them will bother the ducks? They occasionally have a drink from them. If this is going to be a problem I better think of another route to take. Cindy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Apple Cider Vinegar.

Judy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for the info. I will switch. Hopefully this will help them all & probably taste a bit better. Cindy


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

I just finally caught this subject, i will tell y'all something bleach and vinegar is just a preventative, wont do a thing if they already have it , would just help those which are healthy from getting it. This "feral flock" difficulty is not hard to remedy , here is some advice , take it if you will, i only think of the birds wellfare, before you feed them coat the food with some oil: vegetable, linseed, flax , olive .. whatever. Then with the medication coat it, (1 tsp medication to 2 1/2 pounds of oil coated feed mixed well, this varies depending upon how much you feed, but that is approximate ratio), if the medication is in pellet form, just crush to fine powder. Hope this helps the birds.
Jim


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Jim,
Thank you so much for the advice. Certainly makes sense. I will try anything to keep these big healthy & happy. Yes, I did realize the bleach & vinegar were only a preventative. 
I do have a couple questions though, by coating with the medication, are you referring to Baytril? If so will this harm the ducks, finches & the baby roadrunner that has now joined the group? 
Thanks again for your help. Cindy


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Hi,
I thought i read you noticed some birds had canker, if so use whatever medications you have for trichomonas, as far as baytril is concerned i really dont use it much, i save baytril for severe individual treatment of cases. My safer alternative is amoxicillin, very few side effects with this drug only downside is you must treat bit longer. Just coat feed with oil and mix well. 
good luck


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Oh forget to add, the canker medication i use is metronidazole, safe for pigeons and whatever ducks or tweety birds are around, even fish. Just do it for 3-5 days. Unless you have another drug then follow its suggestion. 
Jim


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jim, There was a pigeon with canker. I will go with your suggestion. Have lots of olive oil. Will use a bit of that. 
I have taken the sick pigeons to a rehabber who lives close by and she will guide me with the medication. 
Thank you so much for your input. Much appreciated. 
Have a great weekend. Cindy


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Excellent input from Jim! Dosing a feral flock is imprecise, at best; and Jim's suggestions and choice of drug make good sense to me.

Amoxycillin is still considered an excellent broad-spectrum antibiotic. 

There is some worry with over use of "Silver Bullet" drugs, like Baytril, as resistant mutations of organisms will inevitably result--it's inescapable. At some point, we will get caught with no alternative ammunition. Score one for the disease.









In a controlled, capable environment, I think it's wise to use weaponry, just sufficient to win the fight.

But in a street fight situation with no referee, I'm still a "Silver Bullet" guy.

Nice work, Jim!

--Ray


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## iffan (Jun 15, 2002)

Thank you Ray,
I just want to help out these feathered creatures, no praise is needed as long as one can be saved. Life seems to be of less value these days, just want to do my part nomatter how miniscule.
Jim


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Cindy,

You might want to check the websites for the big pigeon supply houses for products that can be used to treat large numbers of birds through water and/or food. This might be more practical and economical for you.

Foys, Global, Siegel, and JEDDS would be good sites to have a look at.

Terry Whatley


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks Terry,
Will check them out. Cindy


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