# Pigeons & Chickens changing sex



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

In doing research on pubmed I couldn't find any information about chickens or pigeons changing sex. I also asked my dad (a D.V.M)
about chickens playing fast and loose with their sex, and he said that it didn't happen. I don't have the heart to ask the people at UC Davis (because I want to go to Grad school there).

Here's a challange, can you cite literature which states that chickens or pigeons change sex?


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## Nanci (Jul 4, 2003)

http://www.the-coop.org/wwwboard/discus/messages/5105/1510.html 

Sounds like a case of hormonal confusion!

Nanci


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Yes, I read about that in one of my pigeon books. As far as I remember it said that hens can become cocks capable of fertilising eggs. It struck me because it reminded me of Jurassic park.

Cynthia


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Yep, chickens don't change sex. Now let's check on pigeons. Can you be more specific than "one of my pigeon books"? A title and author would be great. I doubt that pigeons change sex, c'mon you don't just alter something as complex as gameteogenesis!


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2003)

Boy, I'm having enough trouble telling what sex my 3-month old Ringneck Dove and Rock Dove couple actually are without those kinds of confusions! LOL

Stacey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I think it was in John's book "Fit to Win". I will track it down and transcribe it!

Cynthia


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## Nanci (Jul 4, 2003)

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_972806.htm 

I was unable to find any reference to pigeons "changing sex," but that does truly happen in many species of fish. This article explains how they have found one common factor in all species that determines when the change occurs.

Nanci


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Thanks Nanci, I already knew about fish changing sex (like Sheeps Heads). In the species that do it the sex change is the norm.

I couldn't find any articles about any birds changing sex, and I looked at over 300 article titles on pubmed.

But somebody on theis website said that chickens and pigeons change sex. So I'm checking it out. Right now I'm waiting on Cynthia to find out the title and author of a book that says that pigeons change sex. Hopefully the book (if it says pigeons change sex) refers to a primary research article, so I can look at the materials and methods section.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Okay, found it!

Extract from "Fit to Win" by Wim Peters, The Racing Pigeon Publishing Co Ltd. 1995 ISBN 0-85390-043-4:

_SEX REVERSAL

An apparent change of sex (pseudohermaphroditism) sometimes occurs in pigeons, as it does in other birds. The condition must be differentiated from hereditary hermaphroditism (presence of functional male and female organs in the same animal), which was described in a family of pigeons by Riddle...

Pseudohermaphroditism (sex reversal, sex change) is relatively common and is responsible for the male characteristics developing in a hen. Tumours, hormonal imbalance, infection etc. produce a new level of hormones that cause the body to override the existing secondary sexual characteristics. Artificially this condition can be produced by testosterone injection.

Grades of sex reversal is seen. When in the extreme, pseudohemaphroditism occurs, and true hens (egg-laying) change to cock like individuals, capable of fertilisation. In nearly all cases the situation involves a hen, apparently reverting to a cock, although correction of the status (apparent cock back to hen) does occur._

Cynthia

[This message has been edited by cyro51 (edited December 05, 2003).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

I've read it and can accept that it was written, but I'd need to see a double-blind study to convince me.









Likewise, Judy has never heard the like.

Jurassic Park was mentioned--the whole amphibian DNA thingy. This was a necessary element to the story (sequels, we want sequels!) But it's true enough that some amphibians do change sex when ambient conditions stimulate the need--as do some fish. But avians?









--Ray


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ray,

I know that Jurassic park was just fiction, but it was the direct link between dinosaurs and the sex reversal and pigeons that got me. I will never forget the time my first rescue squab came running towards me with her big beak broadened in expectation of food and I thought "Baby Dinosaur!" The link to dinosaurs is so visible at times!

Cynthia


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## Tallaria (Jul 10, 2001)

Just my two cents....

Chickens do indeed carry dinosaur DNA. The thing is, that the switches are currently in a dormant or "off" position. Scientists are currently trying to find ways to turn "on" theses switches, such as in the case with the featherless chickens. 

In most common amphibians(frogs, toads, newts, etc.) the switch to change sex is there as well, but is in the "off" position, except for a few frog species that have it "active", to date.

This is how Michael Crichton was able to develop the story of the sex-changing dinosaurs in his books.

Dinosaur blood/tissue in the stomach of a mosquito that had been petrified in tree sap
was able to be extracted, but there were missing strands of DNA to complete the sequence needed to replicate.'un-braided'strands mixed with hermaphrodous DNA strands from frogs (with their obvious compatible link-back to dinosaurs)enabled them to produce "test-tube" or clones of the original dino's.
Not all dinosaurs were amphibious or with that ability. So, obiviously, splicing those genes with a current avian species today could result in a sex-changing ability. Also, if our avians carry those switches, and they do, it is possible that every now and then a switch gets randomly turned on, resulting in a bird able to do so. 
All species of animal and plant life have switches that randomly get turned on and off.
That is the basic theory behind "Natural Selection"..... a natural process( random, genectic lottery) that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment.



[This message has been edited by Tallaria (edited December 16, 2003).]


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

Hi, Cynthia. You said, in part, "The link to dinosaurs is so visible at times!"

I couldn't agree more! This is anecdotal, but in Jurassic Park, the way that T-rex went after that car with the kids in it, is exactly how a large parrot would approach the "problem". I literally started sweating the first time I saw that scene!









Judy has called Bernie, "My little dinosaur".

I admire Crichton's work, anyway--even the show, "E.R.", is superior stuff. 

Tallaria said, in part, "All species of animal and plant life have switches that randomly get turned on and off. That is the basic theory behind 'Natural Selection'"

I accept evolution as fact. And I understand what you're saying. I know the regenerative powers of some amphibians, has been of great interest to researchers too. 

It has occurred to me that the grit ingested by pigeons and other birds, replaces the dental batteries found in other animals, and that this is analogous to many sauropod (big, plant eating dinosaurs) remains, found with stones, ground smooth (gastroliths), in their body cavities--yet another parallel between birds and dinosaurs. 

Still, I'm not sold on the spontaneous sex change thingy in avains.

--Ray


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I'll try to see if "Fit to Win" has a primary research article cited, but I'm a little busy at work right now.

Birds are as closely related to amphibians as we are! 

Just because amphibian genes where used to patch together a pseudosaurian (if anything was altered then it isn't really a dinosaur)and the hypothetical animial changed sex does not mean that dinosaurs did 65 million years ago. Nor does it mean that birds do, if indeed birds are the decendents of dinosaurs. I'm still sticking to the theory that neoaves is decended from the thecodonts (ancestors of the dinosaurs) just to be contrary.

I agree with Tallaria.

It is my personal opinion that the birds which "changed sex" where intersexed.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

There was nothing promising in the bibliography of fit to win, but research on pseudohermaphroditism might throw up some answers!

Cynthia


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Thanks for checking the bibliography Cynthia!


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## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

"I've read it and can accept that it was written, but I'd need to see a double-blind study to convince me."

Ibid.









--Ray


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## tomcass00 (Jul 31, 2003)

Well I m not going to dispute anyone on anything but to say 
I have observed several of my own birds display cock type behavioral characteristics and found them to be hens upon laying and producing young to a confirmed cock bird.
I observed this to continue on even after the young hatch and the start and completion of subsequent settings.
These hens are in several different breeds form rollers to cauchois and even fantails.
the characteristic display of the inflated crop and tail dragging etc chasing other birds as a cock would do and mounting the cock it is mated to.
I can confirm the birds in question as being hens due to them having laid and hatch the young as well as the cocks they take up with having had other confirmed hens and also the cock mated to these hens display the same traits that cocks display.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

All that you're saying is that you've got females that behave like males, not that they change sex. It's a little off the topic and not that unusual. Heck, I've had a female african ringneck dove do the same thing.


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