# New Pigeon, Brown Bar?



## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Today, there was a bird show/swap and I bought two birds that I suspected to be two brown bars. Are they brown bars?

*Pigeon 1, said to be a female*


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

*Pigeon 2, said to be a male.*

*NOTE:* I think that "he" is a MIX, maybe a Homer x King


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would call them a dun bar but I am old school, the genetics people will call them a silver. At least I think that is what MaryOfExeter was showing me .
Dave


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

As far as I know the surest way to tell is to look for signs of sun bleaching with the next moult


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Crazy Pete said:


> I would call them a dun bar but I am old school, the genetics people will call them a silver. At least I think that is what MaryOfExeter was showing me .
> Dave


"Silver", what base color is that? I read some pigeon genetic websites and all of the three base colors use the term "silver" as description of a pigeon..


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

silver is the dilute of blue
dun is the dilute of black

Silver dun bar is basically saying dilute blue black bar ie dilute blue bar


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

silver only applies to the base colour blue/black.

I don;t think the other colours use the term silver.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

What about the false pearl eyes? Isn't that a giveaway of a brown pigeon?


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> silver only applies to the base colour blue/black.
> 
> I don;t think the other colours use the term silver.


"Sometimes a brown bar is called silver, but the bars of a brown are more chocolate colored."

*Quoted from:* http://www.angelfire.com/oh/raraavis/genetics.html

"Ash-red bar is often called "silver" by roller breeders."

*Quoted from:* http://mumtazticloft.com/m_ash-red.asp


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

All I know is I sent a young bird to a person 2 years ago and I said it was either brown or dun and Becky corrected me and said it was a silver.
Dave


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

This looks to me to be a brown bar. Hard to tell them and Silver's apart in photos.
Do a video of all your birds. What breeding plans do you have?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

TwinTurboPigeon said:


> "Sometimes a brown bar is called silver, but the bars of a brown are more chocolate colored."
> 
> *Quoted from:* http://www.angelfire.com/oh/raraavis/genetics.html
> 
> ...


How strange. Thanks for the info. 

I think the first quote refers to your problem, ie the confusion between a brown bar and a dilute blue bar. As in that people 'misidentify' i suppose, the bird. 

I know nothing about rollers so can't say anything there. I can understand calling an ash-red spread or barless silver (actually called lavander) but I don't see what is silver about an ash-red bar :/

I don;t know much about eye colour. I never remember if browns always have a false pearl and never a yellow eye - ie if it has a yellow eye it has to be a dilute blue bar
or
if brown birds can get both but are the only colour that gets a false pearl - ie if it has a false pearl it has to be brown. But i have no idea how to identify between a pearl and false pearl.

What I do know for sure is that brown is the only colour that bleaches in the sun. Black/blue will never bleach. So it is a sure way of finding out.....but you need them to be molting.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

AZCorbin said:


> This looks to me to be a brown bar. Hard to tell them and Silver's apart in photos.
> Do a video of all your birds. What breeding plans do you have?


I plan to breed the first bird (hopefully a hen) to a brown spread male. The second pigeon, I don't care who "he" pairs up with, it doesn't matter much to me.

I have another brown spread (or T-pattern) that is a female that could go with the second pigeon but she is already paired to a blue bar.


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

Hope this picture works. It is a picture of a bird I have and I call it a silver. Bars look lighter than yours. I am not sure about your birds eyes. Sorry not to be more help.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

pigeonjim said:


> Hope this picture works. It is a picture of a bird I have and I call it a silver. Bars look lighter than yours. I am not sure about your birds eyes. Sorry not to be more help.


That's an ash-red isn't it? It has no tail bar.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Pigeonjim, some people call the color of your bird "silver" but in genetic terms it is classified as a spread ash red bar. 

Lisa, both brown and dilute blue will fade/bleach when exposed to the sun.

Tyson, it's difficult to decipher between silver and brown n a pic. You may be able to identify it by checking the toenails. Browns have brown nails and silver's have light horn color nails.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

tmaas said:


> Lisa, some people call the color of your bird "silver" but in genetic terms it is classified as a spread ash red bar.
> Both brown and dilute blue will fade/bleach when exposed to the sun.
> 
> Tyson, it's difficult to decipher between silver and brown n a pic. You may be able to identify it by checking the toenails. Browns have brown nails and silver's have light horn color nails.


Hey, its not my bird. I was commenting that though the person thinks it looks similar in colour it is definitely a different color base than the bird of this thread - since it is ash red based and not brown/blue and therefore not really relevant to the person's query.

I have never heard that dilute blues will fade in the sun. I have always heard that only browns will - just like horses and other animals, true blacks do not fade, brown blacks will bleach over the summer and get highlights.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Sorry Lisa, I corrected my misprint. Your on track with the ash/silver differentiation.


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...4747.27291.1800881700&type=1&relevant_count=1

You right about my bird, I checked into it and learned from your comments. Would this picture be a more accurate representation for a brown bar?? I am trying to help twinturbopigeon, and learn myself also.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

pigeonjim said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...4747.27291.1800881700&type=1&relevant_count=1
> 
> You right about my bird, I checked into it and learned from your comments. Would this picture be a more accurate representation for a brown bar?? I am trying to help twinturbopigeon, and learn myself also.


sorry can't see the link. Might not have permission to see it because of privacy settings on facebook. You should be able to right click on the picture in facebook and copy image URL. From that we should be able to see it


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

Sorry


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

yes that is either a brown bar or a dilute blue bar(what is genetically referred to as a silver). 

Again it is very hard to tell the difference from photos


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

pigeonjim said:


> Sorry



Was just looking at the angelfire website. This photo is from their website. Make sure to say where you got a pic from if it is not yours as there will be copyright issues.

The site says this is a brown bar


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

I'm Sorry, I did not say it was mine, just an example. Never thought about copyright issues. I have a bird that was sent to me from NY that was suppose to be a brown bar. Could not prove it to me after seeing him. If I could find a true example like this one it would be easier to hunt for one. Next time I will use my wife for a bird holding model like the first picture I posted!! lol


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

pigeonjim said:


> I'm Sorry, I did not say it was mine, just an example. Never thought about copyright issues. I have a bird that was sent to me from NY that was suppose to be a brown bar. Could not prove it to me after seeing him. If I could find a true example like this one it would be easier to hunt for one. Next time I will use my wife for a bird holding model like the first picture I posted!! lol


No problem  Just an issue which can become quite troublesome and a lot of people don;t really think about it.

I think perhaps the only way of knowing for sure is through breeding. I think brown spread and brown check are a lot simpler to distinguish from dilute blues. 

Also if the female is the one who potentially carries the dilute factor, then pairing her with an intense brown male will produce - black sons and brown females (none will show the dilute, though the male will have inherited the gene from his mother)

If the male carries the dilute you will get black sons and dun females


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

My supposed brown bar is a male, I was going to breed to the spread ash red bar, but now have to re-think. Any suggestions? It will be interesting to see what he throws. Good luck twinturbopigeon. Hope you do well. Please let us know when you figure it out.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

pigeonjim said:


> My supposed brown bar is a male, I was going to breed to the spread ash red bar, but now have to re-think. Any suggestions? It will be interesting to see what he throws. Good luck twinturbopigeon. Hope you do well. Please let us know when you figure it out.


depends what you are looking for. You are referring to your first photo? The one I said is an ash red?

Someone else said it is an spread ash red bar, soooo you'll be breeding more of the same if you pair her to another spread ash red bar.

Here's an online genetics calculator, I've been playing around with it alot planning a breeding program for my Lahores

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingDuifSpecial.html


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

pigeonjim said:


> My supposed brown bar is a male, I was going to breed to the spread ash red bar, but now have to re-think. Any suggestions? It will be interesting to see what he throws. Good luck twinturbopigeon. Hope you do well. Please let us know when you figure it out.


Thank you. I'll update this thread when I figure them out.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

I haven't have time to check their toe nail color yet, BUT do they have false pearl eyes or is it too hard to see?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

How was the swap meet?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

TwinTurboPigeon said:


> I haven't have time to check their toe nail color yet, BUT do they have false pearl eyes or is it too hard to see?


Its a little hard to tell. But as I said before I don't know much about the eyes. Yes, browns tend to have them but I don't know if it is a conclusive test. Unfortunately no one else seems to have really replied to/knows about the eye colour.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

almondman said:


> How was the swap meet?


It was great almondman! There were many people there and there was 100's of birds of all types. I looked at everyone's for sale inventory and they all looked nice but I only scout for one particular seller that I always buy pigeons from. The two pigeons on this thread are the ones that I bought from the swap, I only bought two pigeons there.

And, 90% of my pigeons came from her and now I have 30 pigeons (about 6 are my friend's, he is building his own loft soon).

There will be the spring swap on March 8, 2014, see if you can make it to that one?


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Its a little hard to tell. But as I said before I don't know much about the eyes. Yes, browns tend to have them but I don't know if it is a conclusive test. Unfortunately no one else seems to have really replied to/knows about the eye colour.


Its fine then, sooner or later I'll find out. Waiting for NZ Pigeon's reply still, I think he hasn't been on for a while.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm glad you had a great time. And buying from the same person is a great idea. You know what you're getting, but keeping an eye on all the others gives you an idea of what's out there. Looks like you got some great birds. And good for you for helping someone else get started in the hobby. 

I will put the date on my calendar and try to get there this spring. Thanks for that heads up.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

I checked their toes and.... I think they are brown. They all look the same to me, lol..


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> No problem  Just an issue which can become quite troublesome and a lot of people don;t really think about it.
> 
> I think perhaps the only way of knowing for sure is through breeding. I think brown spread and brown check are a lot simpler to distinguish from dilute blues.
> 
> ...


Lisa, when you refer to a hen carrying the dilute factor you actually mean a hen that is dilute, correct? Hens cannot carry dilute or brown. Only cocks can carry them, and if so then 50% of their daughters will be dilute or brown, or both (khaki) if the cock carries both.


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

Chart was very helpful, thanks. Definitely gonna re-think. I,m gonna stick to like birds and increase the odds a little. Thanks again


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

tmaas said:


> Lisa, when you refer to a hen carrying the dilute factor you actually mean a hen that is dilute, correct? Hens cannot carry dilute or brown. Only cocks can carry them, and if so then 50% of their daughters will be dilute or brown, or both (khaki) if the cock carries both.


Yes i meant that the hen would be dilute  

I just simplified for the sake of understanding. I like sticking to the same terms or I tend to get confused myself.

I suppose she technically does carry it but she shows it as well since she CAN only carry one gene of dilute or as you said colour.

Point is if the hen is carrying dilute (ie silver bird not brown) then all offspring will be intense (since she gives here genes to any sons, who need 2 doses of dilute to express)- males black, females brown.

If the hen is brown, all offspring will also be intense but you will only get browns

All this assuming she is paired with a known brown cock!


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Yes i meant that the hen would be dilute
> 
> I just simplified for the sake of understanding. I like sticking to the same terms or I tend to get confused myself.
> 
> ...


"Intense" what do you mean by that?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

intense refers to non diluted/reduced colours

ie 'normal' / wildtype so to speak


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Yes i meant that the hen would be dilute
> 
> I just simplified for the sake of understanding. I like sticking to the same terms or I tend to get confused myself.
> 
> ...


technically she is not carrying anything as she IS brown, but I get what ya mean, Its just not technical.

To state she is carrying something is implying she is "carrying" it, not "showing" it so its probably bestt to stamp that terminology out and keep things as technical as possible, without being to technical ofcourse.


"if the hen is brown, all offspring will also be intense but you will only get browns"

What do you mean? 

If a brown hen is paired to a brown cock, all young are brown.

If a brown hen is paired to a cock that is carrying brown then you will get 50% browns in both sexes.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Hey NZ Pigeon, whats your guess on these two pigeons?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> technically she is not carrying anything as she IS brown, but I get what ya mean, Its just not technical.
> 
> To state she is carrying something is implying she is "carrying" it, not "showing" it so its probably bestt to stamp that terminology out and keep things as technical as possible, without being to technical ofcourse.
> 
> ...


Ooooooh boy this is getting messy

ok one thing at a time: the way it was explained to me, if the bird HAS a gene, it is carrying it whether it is hidden or not. And hens can only carry one therefore they show it. Whilst cocks carry two.

But this is all semantics.
The point remains the same and we all agree on it. Cocks 2 colours, hens 1 colour.

Second point:
What you say is correct, but it is a general statement.

My reply if phrased as it is because it is in answer to the threads question:
"Is the barred hen brown or a dilute blue"

And the way I suggest getting a concrete answer is by breeding with a brown spread or check male.

Therefore

IF the hen (from the photo) is really *brown*, then all the young will be brown.

Also I specify that all will be intense -- because there is always the possibility that the cock may be split for dilute. But since the hen is brown and not khaki she cannot be carrying dilute. 

Final point if you get only brown, intense young the hen is a Brown Bar.

Option 2

IF the hen (from the photo) is NOT brown, but rather *dilute blue bar*, then all the males will be black based and all the females will be brown based.

Supposedly they should all be intense. BUT there is always the possibility that the cock could be split for dilute. Which means you will also get some dilute offspring (both browns and blacks).

Final point if you get any blacks in the mix, the hen is a Dilute Blue Bar/Silver.
If you get any dilute offspring then you also know your cock is split for dilute.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Ooooooh boy this is getting messy
> 
> ok one thing at a time: the way it was explained to me, if the bird HAS a gene, it is carrying it whether it is hidden or not. And hens can only carry one therefore they show it. Whilst cocks carry two.
> 
> ...


These two options, what is the hen paired to in these?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> silver only applies to the base colour blue/black.
> 
> I don;t think the other colours use the term silver.


racing pigeon people call ash red bars - silver by the way.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

When one says "black", are they refering to the base color or black as in a spread blue bar/check?


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## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

Thanks Evan, That clears it up for me! All my racing buddies that helped me get started called them silver's. After reading this I thought they all were wrong, and they might technically still be wrong. But I will tell them about the "ash red bar" term just to get them grumbling amongst themselves!! lol


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## Snakeman13 (Oct 28, 2013)

*Definitely Browns*

Both pictures posted by the OP are Browns, not dilutes.

I have bred many browns and dilutes and can easily distinguish between the 2.

See my birds at  www.magicpigeonflight.com/BIRDS.htm.

also reference this site  http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html 

for all things to do with genetics in Pigeons.

Regards SM


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Ooooooh boy this is getting messy
> 
> ok one thing at a time: the way it was explained to me, if the bird HAS a gene, it is carrying it whether it is hidden or not. And hens can only carry one therefore they show it. Whilst cocks carry two.
> 
> ...


see the part in bold. The hen would have to be mated to a brown cock. I say brown check or spread because they are easily identified as 'brown' (unlike with barred birds - which was the start of this thread)


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

TwinTurboPigeon said:


> When one says "black", are they refering to the base color or black as in a spread blue bar/check?


Yes, Tyson.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Pigeon 1 is brown for sure, outer flights are bleaching (barely any direct sunlight here).. But pigeon 2, its not doing much..


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