# Vinegar Baths



## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I can't remeber where I read but adding vinegar to bath water. Can I do this and if so how much vinegar do i add to the water? Also White or red wine? 

Thanks 
Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cindy, 

I don't think vinegar was suggested to be added to the water. Bath salts or specific additives from the pigeon supply houses are good. Some put ivermectin soluable in to treat for worms and some put in products designed to get rid of external parasites but I don't think vinegar will help with this. Vinegar only discourages bacteria really and specifically, the ACV. Perhaps in a way it might be good to prevent things from spreading in the water and to keep it "clean" while bathing. If you were to add the ACV to the bath water, it would be the same as in their drinking water, 2tbs/gallon or more. Since they aren't really drinking it, it's just to keep the bacteria levels down in the water.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I am sure Reti uses it in the birds bath water, I tried it but they wouldn't go near it. I also use the bathing salts for pigeons.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10848


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## armin369 (Jan 7, 2006)

Iuse apple cidar vinegar to put in their drinking water and i also put lemon scented bleech and garlic but not all at the same time


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

armin369 said:


> Iuse lemon scented bleech


Armin, I know some fanciers put bleach in thier water. I don't like it and don't use it, but some swear by it so I won't tell you NOT to use it, however, I think you need to stick to regular bleach, not lemon scented...........


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Why would anyone put Bleach in the water? I have never heard that one before and I always thought that could kill the bird. Thank You Brad I thought I heard something that it could help with taking the added dust off their feathers and help take the residue off the feathers alittle. Maybe I was wrong or misunderstanding something.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

naturegirl said:


> Why would anyone put Bleach in the water? I have never heard that one before and I always thought that could kill the bird. Thank You Brad I thought I heard something that it could help with taking the added dust off their feathers and help take the residue off the feathers alittle. Maybe I was wrong or misunderstanding something.



Hi Cindy, 

The bleach in the water works the same, it's a disinfectant and will kill germs, bugs and such in the water. It's used in a very small percentage in the water, much like the ACV would. However, I prefer things that are natural myself as apposed to chemicals. But, even saying this, people have been using bleach in the bathing AND drinking water for pigeons for decades. It's all a matter of what you are comfortable in doing. It's just some of us prefer a more natural approach and something not as harsh.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I would be paranoid as aw heck, not for me I am with you Brad if I lost my Pesto I would cry buckets for a long time. Thanks for the reply. Hey Brad your opinion on negitive bacteria counts in the general thread area. Pleeeese??


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Bleach*

Well.....

To each his own. Personally, the use of bleach in the bath water and in the drinking water is a hold over from the 1960's. I pulled my birds from a futurity race last year, when the loft owner started putting bleach into the drinking water in order to "cure" some unexplained illness which was killing birds. To me, that told me he had no ideal what he was doing. 

It's the ole story that my Mom use to ask, if some kid down the street was jumping off a bridge, does that mean that I would do the same ? So, if you want the same results as the guy, who is doing it the same way he did it 30 years ago, then go ahead and follow his lead. The insanity of this and other methods, is they will do the same thing, year after year, and wonder why they don't get different results !!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, we put ACV in both drinking water and bath water. They sail in the bath water just the same as when clear water is in there. I do have one pigeon who doesn't like the taste of the ACV water so I have to watch her.

About the bleach. I have a friend who raises the tiny pigeons with small beaks and he swears by it. There is a thread somewhere that I read just a few days ago that a member was warning people on the forum not to use bleach unless they could get the regular bleach and not the ULTRA bleach that is so common today. As best as I remember it was a few years ago when the thread was written but it sure made me wonder about bleach. 

Maggie

I just did a search and I don't know how to do the link for you but it is dated 12/22/01 by member "Marian" (who I think is a well respected rehabber) and is titled "Bleach Warning."


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## armin369 (Jan 7, 2006)

i was told this by someone whos father had pigeons for 30 years and he has them for 15 years and uses bleach twice a week and says he had healthy pigeons so far


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Bleach has been used in the past by people as a means to kill off nasties in their own drinking water such as certain bacteria, parasites and other possibly harmful organisms. These days water is more commonly chlorinated or filtered or...so many cleansing processes, and we in North America are only rarely in a situation where we would have to use bleach but it can be used in a pinch. Chlorine itself is a type of bleach. It is used in swimming pools and is very effective at killing water-borne bacteria and germs. It is not 100% effective though.

In the third world bleach is still sometimes used in drinking water because of it's low cost and ability to kill off most everything it comes in contact with. If recollection serves me, the amount of bleach used is quite fractional and the water has to be allowed to sit overnight. It is not really recommended unless there are no good alternatives but works in a pinch for decontamination of suspect drinking water. _I would never give any to a pigeon though_. Anything strong enough to kill things in water will do the same in the gut in my opinion. If you are curious:

http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/surv/bleach.htm

I can see the value of some vinegar in bath water though as the acidity would make an unfriendly environment for mites or other nasties. I myself use a strong vinegar solution for cleaning up pigeon-poops around the house. For the pigeons benefit the odours are not toxic and it does a handy job as an all purpose household cleaner. 

Cameron


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Not too long ago on one of these threads, I read where someone used 20 Mule Team Borax in the bath water for parasites.

I thought about trying it, but I hadn't gotten around to it yet. My birds use Calgone! Just kidding.
I do use ACV in their drinking water.

There is one thing that I am interested in though. I left a box of laundry detergent in the patio, several of my birds tore the box open trying to get to the detergent. Am I missing something in their diet, that they would go after my detergent?

Feather


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## bartuska (Apr 20, 2005)

I do use a teaspoon of bleach (not scented or ultra) in a gallon of water (we have well water) a few times a week. I read the book 'A Veterinary Approah to Pigeon Health' by Dr. David Marx --and he recommends it very highly. You can NEVER mix bleach with any other products, i.e. medications, natural remedies, etc. The bleach makes the water more acidic killing off bacteria--and will also lower the acidity in the pigeon which will help fight off germs--much like vinegar. I also use bleach to clean the water bowls and feed troughs--
So far the birds are happy and healthy and I'll be sticking to it. Like most subjects in medicine and health--there will be multiple trains of thought and opinions and you have to find the one that works for you.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Feather said:


> Not too long ago on one of these threads, I read where someone used 20 Mule Team Borax in the bath water for parasites.
> 
> I thought about trying it, but I hadn't gotten around to it yet. My birds use Calgone! Just kidding.
> 
> ...


Two things..........I have posted that I use 20 Mule Team Borax. It does the same thing as the expensive "bath salts" that you pay an arm and leg for from the pigeon supply places. Most of thier stuff is good but some of it is just to get your money.........anyway, we have a friend that left a bath pan in his loft after he emptied it. There was some white residue from the borax and he saw a hen pecking at it. A few hours later, she was dead. He ASSUMES it was the borax residue, so, although it's safe diluted in the water, keep it out of reach other wise. I would put the box of laundry soap up where they can't get to it. Don't know if it would harm them or not?......


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

bartuska said:


> I read the book 'A Veterinary Approah to Pigeon Health' by Dr. David Marx --and he recommends it very highly.


I have the same book and you are correct. That's why I didn't tell Armin NOT to use it, but to skip the Lemon scented stuff..........I don't use bleach because I think it stinks and I don't know how the pigeons drink it. I'm sure that if used correctly it will do them no harm and may even do them some good but I just don't like the stuff so I don't use it. If they get thirsty enough they will drink anything but that doesn't mean they like it. It's just a personal thing I guess......


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Lovebirds,

Borax is a type of salt. Besides being used as an additive in detergent it is also used as an insecticide and is known to be toxic. If it kills bugs it can't be good for birds or people to consume either. I agree with you that any detergent should be kept out of reach of birds. Especially considering that there are so many other potentially toxic ingredients added in to soaps and detergents these days. 

Feather, after checking, I discovered that borax can have a sweet taste. Perhaps that is why your birds got into it. Just a thought.

Cameron


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## armin369 (Jan 7, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> I have the same book and you are correct. That's why I didn't tell Armin NOT to use it, but to skip the Lemon scented stuff..........I don't use bleach because I think it stinks and I don't know how the pigeons drink it. I'm sure that if used correctly it will do them no harm and may even do them some good but I just don't like the stuff so I don't use it. If they get thirsty enough they will drink anything but that doesn't mean they like it. It's just a personal thing I guess......


when you have lemon scented than you wont smell the bleach and will smell lemon..because if i put only bleach with no scent than the pigeons wouldnt drink because the smell is too strong


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Cameron,

It's funny that you brought that up because as I was typing that post, I was going to say that my pigeons were going after that detergent....like I go after chocolate. 

This has been a while back, but since then they (same pigeons) have gotten in the kitchen and went after it again. But it wasn't the Borax, it was just regular detergent....although it may have had Borax as an ingredient. It was the kind of detergent that gets hot in your hand when you get it wet. 

Oh....will they ever be safe from us?

Feather


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Camrron said:


> Hi Lovebirds,
> 
> Borax is a type of salt. Besides being used as an additive in detergent it is also used as an insecticide and is known to be toxic. If it kills bugs it can't be good for birds or people to consume either. I agree with you that any detergent should be kept out of reach of birds. Especially considering that there are so many other potentially toxic ingredients added in to soaps and detergents these days.
> 
> ...


Boy.....I sure did this backwards, didn't I? Please read post #20 before #19. Thank You
Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

armin369 said:


> when you have lemon scented than you wont smell the bleach and will smell lemon..because if i put only bleach with no scent than the pigeons wouldnt drink because the smell is too strong


Hi armin369,

I've read several threads here on bleach in the drinking and at other sites, my preference is to use other things in their water, but to each his own. However, 
I, too, have read cautions to make sure that it is regular bleach, without scenting. If your birds won't drink it, perhaps cut back on the ratio?

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Got it Feather

I did read #20 before #19 as suggested. You're crackin me up! I do hope your birds were OK though. It is worrisome. I think household chemicals are one of the biggest risks to indoor birds. Poor things have no idea what they are getting in to.

Armin, 

I would strongly suggest you not use bleach of any kind for your birds, scented or unscented. It is just not necessary where quality water already exists and carries risks that you don't need to take. Ask yourself what you are trying to achieve before giving your birds anything like it and then check with others to see if it is OK before "testing" it out on your pets. As I mentioned in my previous post bleach used to be used to purify contaminated water, even here in this country, but it is no longer needed in that regard. If your own local tap water is safe enough for you to drink it is certainly safe enough for your birds to bathe in.

Cameron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feather said:


> There is one thing that I am interested in though. I left a box of laundry detergent in the patio, several of my birds tore the box open trying to get to the detergent. Am I missing something in their diet, that they would go after my detergent?
> 
> Feather



Hi Feather,


I think it would be wise to make sure no Birds can ever get into any Laundry Detergent...even if they want to. Most detergents contain phosphates and these would be very toxic to Birds, even potentially as residu from routine Laundry.

Fabric softeners likewise...when their residu remains in the Laundred cloths the Birds might have in their cages and so on...

Many people break out in rashes or hives from these things, for that matter...

Otherwise, as far as if they are missing something in their Diet, likely Calcium...or Potasium or Phosphorus maybe, but...

What is their diet? Might be easier to guess if you could list what they do eat...


Best wishes...!

 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Feather said:


> Cameron,
> 
> It's funny that you brought that up because as I was typing that post, I was going to say that my pigeons were going after that detergent....like I go after chocolate.
> 
> ...


Hi Feather, ok, see if I got this right.....first they tore up the patio, then proceeded into the kitchen where they rifled through the cabinets until they were satiated? My advice may sound harsh, but if I were you I'd put the credit cards and car keys in a locked safe ! Seriously, think you have professional paint stores in your area, get either a 2 or 5 gallon bucket w/the lid and store your detergent in that. Might be their next plan is to go to People's Park in Bezerkely and hook up w/the 'Bubble Woman' there  .

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> Two things..........I have posted that I use 20 Mule Team Borax. It does the same thing as the expensive "bath salts" that you pay an arm and leg for from the pigeon supply places. Most of thier stuff is good but some of it is just to get your money.........anyway, we have a friend that left a bath pan in his loft after he emptied it. There was some white residue from the borax and he saw a hen pecking at it. A few hours later, she was dead. He ASSUMES it was the borax residue, so, although it's safe diluted in the water, keep it out of reach other wise. I would put the box of laundry soap up where they can't get to it. Don't know if it would harm them or not?......



Thanks Renee,
I couldn't remember who gave the tip about the Borax, but I knew that it someone that I trusted enough to try it myself. 

I was really scared when I saw the birds in the detergent. I expected the worse. The second time I caught them, I suspected that they were after something that I am not giving them.

Phil,
I feed them Pegion Feed which contains:
Milo, Peas, Popcorn, Wheat, VItamin A and D-Activated Animal Sterols (Source of VItamin D-3), Piboflavin, Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Vitamin E, and Choline Chioride. WHAT IS CHOLINE CHIORIDE?

Grit, vitamins, sometimes powered milk with wheat germ oil. Sometimes Brockley,or carrots. They also have access to the Baby tears moss that they love to eat and other things like grass. That is all I can think of right off hand. Oh they sometimes eat my rabbit's pellets. (alfalfa)

But trust me....they want that detergent...if they could get ahold of it they would eat it.

fp, 
You are so funny! 
It sounds like they are a bunch of bubble bandits doesn't it? That is how you will be able to find me if you come down south a bit.
As you watch the birds in flight....and you come across a flock making bubbles....STOP right there....I'll be close....tying to hide the detergent.


Feather


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Should I still give my birds baths when they are on eggs? I seem to remember someone telling me that they get their feathers wet and then they stick to the eggs and pull the eggs out of the nest?? Can they have baths when they have young squabs? They won't wet the squabs and chill them? I have read a lot that people put garlic in the water - it gets rid of feather mites.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Choline chloride*

Feather, 
maybe more than you want to know about choline chloride, but you got my curiosity up. 

(from Google) 

---------------------------
EXCERPTS FROM: *Akzo Nobel Functional Chemicals* website. (The company I worked for bought chemicals from Akzo, a big chemical compüany, in the 1980s, for import/export). 
http://www.cholinechloride.com/functions/cholineasvitamin.html
Choline chloride 
Choline chloride is a well-known and globally accepted additive for feed. 
Choline as Vitamin 
Choline (known officially as 2-hydroxyethyl-trimethyl ammonium hydroxide) is indispensable for a number of fundamental processes in the body. Although a natural ingredient in many foodstuffs, the concentration is usually too low to ensure proper development and optimum growth in young animals, especially poultry, pigs and calves, but also cats, dogs and other fur bearing animals. 
Choline chloride is the most widely used - and most economical - form of choline for supplementing diets. Mainly used as an animal feed additive, it is one of five choline specialties produced by Akzo Nobel.
Generally classified as a B-complex vitamin (referred to as vitamin B4 in some publications), choline influences the metabolism of carotene and vitamin A in animals. It is in fact an essential component for ensuring the proper functioning of the nervous system. Choline plays a vital role in a number of different ways:
• by building and maintaining cell structures; ?• by forming acetylcholine for the transmission of impulses; ?• by preventing perosis in poultry; and ?• by building lecithin.
Apart from promoting the fat metabolism in the liver (the so-called lipotropic action), choline is also a methyl group source used for transforming homocysteine into the essential amino acid methionine.
Choline deficiency symptoms 
A deficiency in choline may cause the following symptoms:
In poultry:
• retarded growth 
• reduced hatchability 
• accumulation of fat in the liver and kidney 
• fatty degeneration of the liver 
• perosis 
• behavioral disturbances 
• a reduction in quantity and size of egg production 
• muscle dystrophy 

------------------------------
and from this website: *Life Extension * http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00541.html 

Choline Chloride?16 fl oz.?Item Catalog Number: 541
Research indicates the value of taking high doses of choline in order to achieve optimal acetylcholine levels in the brain. The most cost effective way of consuming large amounts of choline is to drink choline chloride liquid. 
Choline chloride provides a synergistic combination of choline and pantothenic acid in a base of purified water. 

---------------------------

From *Wikipedia*: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline_chloride
Choline chloride or N-(2-Hydroxyethyl)trimethylammonium chloride is an organic compound and a quaternary ammonium salt. The counterion is chlorine. In the laboratory choline can be prepared by methylation of dimethylethanolamine with methyl chloride. In the industrial Davy process choline chloride is produced from ethylene oxide, hydrochloric acid, and trimethylamine. Alternative names are hepacholine, biocolina and lipotril.

Applications
Choline chloride is mass produced and is an important additive in feed especially for chicken where it accelerates growth. With urea it forms a deep eutectic solvent. Other commercial choline salts are choline hydroxide and choline bitartrate. In foodstuffs the compound is often present as phosphatidylcholine.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonpoo said:


> Should I still give my birds baths when they are on eggs? I seem to remember someone telling me that they get their feathers wet and then they stick to the eggs and pull the eggs out of the nest?? Can they have baths when they have young squabs? They won't wet the squabs and chill them? I have read a lot that people put garlic in the water - it gets rid of feather mites.


You can give your birds a bath any time as long as the weather is decent. I wouldn't give them one in a snow storm!!! LOL For one, the bird that is sitting on the eggs is probably not going to come take a bath anyway. One or two of my hens will take a quick bath is the weather is warm and then go right back to the eggs. They will take a bath with babies in the nest also after the babies are a few days old. Again, most hens won't leave babies that are only a few days old to take a bath. Now if you leave the water out all day, eventually they will both bathe, but I only leave my water for about 20 minutes or so. When I have birds on eggs/babies, I try to give baths at different times so that both parents get a chance to take a bath.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for your advice. It's cold in the UK at the moment but when it warms up a bit I'll do just that.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Feather,
> maybe more than you want to know about choline chloride, but you got my curiosity up.
> 
> (from Google)
> ...



Wow! George,

Thank you so very much for the information and the web sites. That's a pretty important ingredient for me to not know what it was. Truely, I thought it was some kind of filler, or something that sounded like it might be in the makings of detergent.
By the way, I have read many of your adventures with your birds, and I have always enjoyed them very much.

Thanks again for the information
Feather


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