# Pigeon De-worming?



## fortfun2 (May 13, 2006)

Hi all, its been quite a while since Ive visited this site! But when I tried re-visiting a week back I ran into a few problems!

1. first of all, pigeons.com didnt load at all! so I thot this site had prob closed up for good  but then I googled all sorts sorts of stuff, landed up here (finally!), then realised the url had changed!

2. I wasnt able to post any messages with my old ID! it was "fortfun", but whenever I tried to start a new topic, I kept getting this message that I didnt have "suitable permission to post" or something... anyway so I created this ID!

moderators, it would be great if you could please look into this sometime 

anyway, to the question I was about to ask...  
I was wondering, can meds meant for humans (in different dosage, of course)be used for pigeon deworming?

the ones Im talking abt are

Zentel
Akbendazole

can they be used in any form? Im having trouble acquiring the ones mentioned on this site, I live in India & its kinda hard to get  ...

thanks!
DM


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DM,


I am not at the front of the class on this or on worm meds, but...

If you can determing the actual chemical name of the medicine, as distinct from it's Trade Name, you can then determine if the medicine is the same as what may be used in Avian contexts.

Likely, they will turn out to be the same, but, it is possible that some people-meds will be contraindicated for Avian applications, for one reason or another....and, if so, you would do well to find out.

Most medications are used on the basis of so-much medicine, at some specific concentration, to each kilo of patient's weight...so, what one confronts then is the basic arithmetic proceedures to find out how much of a specific concentration of a particular medication, a patient weighing so many Grams will need, and or what range within that, is advantageous.


Tedious, but it is what we must go through sometimes!

You could do some 'google' searhes useing terms such as "anthelminthics"..."worm meds", "endoparasite diseases'', or other terms or phrases which should bring up various references, where the names of the medicines are mentioned, then, to investigate the medicines themselves.


Too, 'Global Priority' Class of U.S. Mail, for foreign shipments of small, light, un-insured parcels...costs generally from five to eight dollars, and from a Pigeon Supply House in the U.S., would get your Worm meds to you in a week or so, assumeing your regional postal service is effecient and reliable...

But, probably getting meds locally would be much less expensive, soi far as the cost of the meds themselves, if you can locate sources of them near you.

Possibly, you could make the acquaintance of some sympathetic Health Care operatives, Doctors, Nurses or the likes, and see if they may be willing to help you obtain some specific medicines you have researched in advance.

I do not know what criteria may be applicible for these kinds of medicines regarding the need for a perscription over there...but for Veterinary, one can obtain them Mail Order of course with no perscription.


Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi fortfun2,

The two names that you've provided are actually the same drug, Albendazole,
which is related to Mebendazole (Vermox). I have a listing in an older avian formulary for Mebendazole, although it is not recommeded. A more current piece of information that I looked up says _definitely not Albendazole!_ The more current information is from PigeonNetwork, a very trustworthy source and provides the documentation and reasoning for this:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/anthelminiticdrugs.cfm

You might want to try a natural remedy to buy some time until you can figure a way to get a medication that pigeons can tolerate:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10568

Some folks also use fresh or capsulized garlic as well.

Common anthelmintics used for pigeons would be:

Ivermectin: Roundworm, gapeworm, lice, mites, and some classes of coccidia
Levisamole: Roundworm, Threadworm
Piperazine: Roundworm
Pyrantel Pamoate: Roundworm
Praziquantal: Tapeworm

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=...endazole+pigeons&d=LVmAoxIeOXzO&icp=1&.intl=u :

Febantel: Roundworm, Capillaria/Hairworm/Threadworm (one in the same)
Oxfendazole: Roundworm, Hairworm
Fenbendazole: Roundworm, Hairworm_**See caution above at PigeonNetwork_

Roundworm and Capillaria are the more common worms found in pigeons, and gape worm and tape worm less common.

You could also check out the links from the resource section and go to the Pigeon Supply Houses and see what is being offered there as a guideline for what would be suitable. Hope this helps.

fp

There are two listings in the following link for India, don't know if they would be helpful in locating someone locally:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactI.htm


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I found that even natural remedies that can be used to deworm cats and dogs cannot be used for birds.

However, if you can find the tea called chapparell, you can make that and use it. It is an excellent dewormer. 20 cc's for an average size pigeon.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Natural worm medications...*



Trees Gray said:


> I found that even natural remedies that can be used to deworm cats and dogs cannot be used for birds.
> 
> However, if you can find the tea called chapparell, you can make that and use it. It is an excellent dewormer. 20 cc's for an average size pigeon.


Hello Treesa,

Have you ever heard of giving pigeons Dia-Secticide Powder for the treatment of worms ? The active ingredients are diatomaceous earth, which I purchased to use as a "natural" insect control agent. Somewhere along the line, the idea of feeding it to pigeons to control worms came to mind, and for the life of me, I don't know where such an idea came from. I also have this bottle of Ecto-Endo which I have used, so how effective would you think these two items together might be along with some garlic cloves in the water now and then ?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Treesa,
> 
> Have you ever heard of giving pigeons Dia-Secticide Powder for the treatment of worms ? The active ingredients are diatomaceous earth, which I purchased to use as a "natural" insect control agent. Somewhere along the line, the idea of feeding it to pigeons to control worms came to mind, and for the life of me, I don't know where such an idea came from. I also have this bottle of Ecto-Endo which I have used,* so how effective would you think these two items together might be along with some garlic cloves in the water now and then ?*



Hi Warren,

I think it is probably very effective, I just don't know if it would be bad for the birds, as I have not used it, and because I have not used all three together. 

I have never heard of the Dia-Secticide Powder. I have used diatomaceous earth on floors and under nest boxes and never seen any kind of bugs, but never fed it to them, but I know others have used diatomaceous earth in their birds food and I found one link of proof of that.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=101463&postcount=32


If you suspect your birds have worms I would have a fecal done, if it is just for prevention I would stick with just garlic capsules. I haven't seen any worms here, and Doreen is a firm believer that garlic is all you need to keep them away, and the chapparell works when they actually DO have them.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Chaparral, chapparell tea*

I was looking for the Hindi word or equivalent for chapparrell. It seems there are several spellings used. 

Here is a Wikipedia link to chaparral:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaparral

Chapparrell tea links: 

-----------

http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20000812.htm 

The Cure-All: Chaparral (Larrea Tridentata)

Chaparral is one of the best non-toxic blood purifiers on earth. The history of chaparral dates back to ancient Indian times when medicine men administered chaparral tea brewed from the leaves of the desert creosote bush.

-----------

This National Institute of Health (U.S. government web-site) lists some warnings to consider; 

Chaparral (Larrea tridentata (DC) Coville, Larrea divaricata Cav) & Nordihydroguaiaretic acid (NDGA)
*
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-chaparral.html
*
*
Background*

Chaparral is a shrub found in the desert regions of southwestern United States and Mexico. It was used by Native American populations for indications including chicken pox (varicella), colds, diarrhea, menstrual cramps, pain, rheumatic diseases, skin disorders, snake bites, and as an emetic. Chaparral tea was also used for purported effects of removing lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) residue and thereby preventing recurrent hallucinations. Chaparral leaves have also been used externally for bruises, scratches, wounds, and hair growth.
The chaparral component nordihydroguaiaretic acid (NDGA) has been evaluated as a treatment for cancer but due to risk of toxicity is considered unsafe and not recommended for use.

*Synonyms*

Chaparral taxa, chaparral tea, chaparro, creosote bush, creosote, dwarf evergreen oak, el gobernadora, falsa alcaparra, geroop, obernadora, greasewood, guamis, gumis, hediondilla, hideonodo, jarillo, kovanau, kreosotstrauch, larrea, Larrea divaricata , Larrea glutiosa , Larrea mexicana , Larrea mexicana Moric, Larrea tridentate , NDGA, nordihydroguaiaretic acid, palo ondo, shoegoi, sonora covillea, tasago, ya-tmep, yah-temp, zygophyllaceae.

*Evidence*

These uses have been tested in humans or animals. Safety and effectiveness have not always been proven. Some of these conditions are potentially serious, and should be evaluated by a qualified healthcare provider.

Et cetera ....

Larry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

http://www.arizonanatural.com/page4.html


http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20000812.htm


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> http://www.arizonanatural.com/page4.html
> 
> 
> http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20000812.htm


OK now Treesa,

I found that material under the Vitamin Shoppe, is that something I can dump into my water along with garlic ?

I don't think my garlic and that earth product is toxic, as they are being used together here. To the best of my knowlege, I have never had worms, but then I have used the other medications throughout the year also as a backup.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Warren,

If you are just using it for prevention don't use the chapparal, just use the garlic. I can't recommend what I haven't tried, so use at your own discretion.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Ivermectin - how is this given and does it prevent lice - how does it prevent lice?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> Ivermectin - how is this given and does it prevent lice - how does it prevent lice?


Warriec, it depends on what kind of Ivermectin you puchase. The injectable is more expensive but administration is versatile. It can be given orally or on the back of the neck in addition to injection.

The avermectin family provides relief from external parasites that live off of the blood supply in that they will die from bloodstream products containing sufficient residuals/concentrations of the drug. But as an avian vet pointed out to me, they (the parasites) are going to have their sampling first then die. Why not have a first line of defense by spraying every other week w/ a Carbaryl or Pyrethrin (or similar) based product? This would be living quarters in addition to the feathers themselves.

By using both methods, you'll have fewer problems w/these pests in the long
run.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Treesa,
> 
> Have you ever heard of giving pigeons Dia-Secticide Powder for the treatment of worms ? The active ingredients are diatomaceous earth, which I purchased to use as a "natural" insect control agent. Somewhere along the line, the idea of feeding it to pigeons to control worms came to mind, and for the life of me, I don't know where such an idea came from. I also have this bottle of Ecto-Endo which I have used, so how effective would you think these two items together might be along with some garlic cloves in the water now and then ?


You know Warren, I've heard/read of others who used Diatomaceous Earth internally as a natural anthelminthic, and I've never recieved an adequate
explanation of how it was supposed to work. The explanation for fleas would
be that the clay is so fine in powdered format that it is supposed to 'rip or shred' the fleas to their death.

Internally, ie., in a 'wet' format, I just couldn't make the translation from
fleas (dry and powderized format) that I've come to view the mechanism for
dealing w/pests. It doesn't mean that it won't work for worms and I'd love
to know by what action it's deemed effective.

I can say, there are a lot of cleansing systems that work by using Diatomacous Earth--clay--and it has been reported to not only remove
toxins from the body but also to deposit minerals where there is a deficit. 

My only caution w/Diatomaceous Earth is the inhalation of it when powderized and airborn as this would present the same health concerns as ones recognized by craftspersons who work w/it and have concerns about it's inhalation.

fp


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

feralpigeon said:


> ....Why not have a first line of defense by spraying every other week w/ a Carbaryl or Pyrethrin (or similar) based product? This would be living quarters in addition to the feathers themselves.
> 
> By using both methods, you'll have fewer problems w/these pests in the long
> run.
> ...


FP,

My concern with the use of toxic chemicals such as Pyrethrin, on such a timetable, is the danger of the birds absorbing these chemicals. I mean when this is being placed directly onto the bird every other week, what is the long term impact of this going to be over a couple of years ?

A product such as the Diatomaceous Earth is not a chemical. It is the tiny microscopic fossil shells from a type of algae. When lice, fleas, or other insects come in contact with this material it damages their skin, joints and mouth parts of the insect and absort body fluids. The insect then dies in a day or two from dehydration.

How this product would work internally, is still a mystery to me, and I have yet to see any type of confirmation other then the claims from the sellers of the stuff. Here are some recent links I found.

http://www.hydromall.com/happy_grower16.html

http://www.internet-grocer.net/diatome.htm

http://www.herbalremedies.com/diead6oz.html

Here I found some more claims....

Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth to Zoo Animals
Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan

A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation. John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York. John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes. The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior. Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Ivermectin injections - how often should it be given & what dosage. I use fronline drops for the dogs and it gives 2 months protection from external parasites. i guess ivermectin has the same effect.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> Ivermectin injections - how often should it be given & what dosage. I use fronline drops for the dogs and it gives 2 months protection from external parasites. i guess ivermectin has the same effect.


Warriec, if you get Ivermectin injectible, you don't need to inject it. You may
give the birds drops down the throat or place the drops on the back of the 
neck and rub in. Here's a link to the one that I use:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=66&SubCategoryID=545&ProductID=2380

You could always email Jedd's and ask them how long the product is effective
for external parasites.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> FP,
> 
> My concern with the use of toxic chemicals such as Pyrethrin, on such a timetable, is the danger of the birds absorbing these chemicals. I mean when this is being placed directly onto the bird every other week, what is the long term impact of this going to be over a couple of years ?
> 
> ...




Warren, Diatomaceous is also what sculpters use for making pottery, artwork,
etc., and they do speak of concerns regarding inhalation of the very fine
powder when dry.

From the links that you provided, it seems that the clay doesn't need to
be dry in order for the D.E. to still make the necessary lasserations to the parasite causing it to die. I used to use D.E. a very long time ago to control
fleas.

After reading information in your links, I would use it for worms, I guess you could lightly oil the seeds and coat in this way....have you ever given it this way?? I'd also wonder if it had the same impact on eggs in terms of lasserations as eggs are known for being difficult to deal with.

About the Pyrethrin based products, the ingredient is collected from flowers,
and to tell you the truth I don't know the story on the chemical in Seven--Carbaryl. Here are a couple of random links to some information on Pyrethrin:

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/pyrethrins-ziram/pyrethrins-ext.html

http://www.wmmg.com/bp/content/home.asp

I just prefer sprays to powders....are you saying that you would use the 
D.E. as a lice/mite powder on their feathers?

fp


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