# question about crop(s)...



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi all, hope I can get some insight here.

The past 2-3 days, I've noticed on Mel that his crop doesn't totally empty in 6 hours, unlike Misty's. They eat the same amount and the little food that I "think" is left in Mel's crop isn't hard and at the very bottom of the crop. Another thing I've noticed about Mel is that his crop is much larger, like it's stretched out more than Mistys. 

When it's feeding time, Misty's crop is close to her body and not hanging down at all. Mel's is hanging a bit, like loose skin and looks like air is in there. He's had air bubbles in the past and I've been able to massage those out, but I've tried that these past couple of days and it doesn't make it any smaller.

My question is this, is it normal for chicks to have different types of crops? I mean, not looking exactly alike? Mel seems to be fine otherwise, chirping and very active, but Misty does seem to be growing just a tad bit faster, though Mel is not far behind.

Just wondering if this was something that I need to be concerned with, thank you very for any input you might have.

Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Crops do vary in size and I think that Mel's crop could have stretched through over eating (which baby pigeons can do). It can be serious and if it is a stretched crop it will need correcting . 

I have copied the extract below from this site http://www.petparrot.com/Injuries.htm which also has a picture of the "crop bra" referred to.


Stretched Crop
A stretched crop is a condition seen in handfeeding baby parrots. It is caused by trying to give a baby too much food in one feed, and, thereby, overfilling and stretching the muscles of the crop. The crop skin and muscles have a natural elasticity that assist in the digestion of food and retain their shape as the food is digested. When empty, the crop should be flat. If the crop is overfilled to the point of stretching the skin and muscles, it will hang onto the breastbone, and a portion of the food will remain in the part of the crop that is overlapping onto the breastbone. It will appear very much like a deflated balloon. If left uncorrected, the food remaining in the crop will develop bacteria, which will slow the digestive process even more, causing weight loss and possibly eventual death.

If your baby's crop should become stretched, you can help correct the problem by making a "crop bra" for him. The illustration shows a picture of a crop bra. Depending on the size of the baby, it may be made with a wide gauze bandage, or a strip of towel or rag. The wide area in the middle should be long and wide enough to support his crop, the strips should be long enough too be fastened around him. The upper strips should be fastened, or tied, around the back of his neck, above his wings, and the lower strips should be under his wings and around his back.

The crop bra should remain on the baby until his crop muscles are strong enough to empty his crop. Until then, the crop should be emptied completely, and cleaned with warm water, every 24 hours.


Cynthia


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

OMG, that sounds "exactly" like what is going on with Mel! I can't believe I overfed him, I thought I fed him exactly the same amount as I did with Misty, who's crop is fine. 

I have a few questions about the crop bra, if someone can elaborate for me.

First of all, do I keep this bra on "while" I'm feeding him or is it only on him between feedings? I'm wondering how tight it needs to be. I'm guessing just tight enough to press the crop against his body. Seems like if I keep it on while feeding, it'll be kinda painful.

How do I clean his crop with warm water?? Do they mean to actually force feed warm water into him? When do I do this, before/after/inbetween feedings?

I have a wide gauze bandage and some velcro, so I can make this bra for him, that part won't be a problem. Thank you for help and advice.

Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy ,

Think bra, not Liberty Bodice!!! It should support the crop so that it doesn't fold over at the bottom and trap food in the fold, not flatten or constrict the crop. It should be kept in place even while feeding.

I don't know whether that last bit means the crop has to be emptied manually every 24 hours. I hope not as I think that can be quite dangerous. I think that this is something that Karen knows about and will e-mail her !

In the meantime you said her crop is emptying but slowly? Don't feed her again until her crop is completely empty, When it is empty give her warm water, wait until the crop has emptied, then give her warm water again and a third time after that has emptied.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is from the same parrot page, further down the page in the bit about sour crop:

If a baby's crop does not empty in a 24 hour period, it must be emptied in order to prevent further complications. This may be done with a piece of plastic tubing used for aquarium air line, or the baby may be held with his head lower than his body and the soured food massaged from the crop, through the esophagus, and out of the mouth. *The latter method has a higher risk of aspirating the baby if he breathes food into his lungs in his panic while being turned upside down. The first method may be risky if the tubing is forced though the walls of the esophagus.* If you have never emptied a baby's crop, it *is best to contact an avian vet or an experienced breeder to do the task. * 

If the crop needs emptying manually a parrot breeder might be able to help you do it if you can't find a vet or a rehabber.

Cynthia


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Ok, I understand what you mean about the bra supporting the muscles of the crop now, no bodice.  

His crop has been "almost" emptying, meaning, there's just a tiny bit of food at the very bottom of the crop, the part that hangs, like it was explained on that parrot site. I think because it's hanging over the breast bone, like in a little fold, like you mentioned, it's not getting out.

They get fed again at 2pm, I'm wondering if I should go ahead and put warm water into Mel's crop right now and see if that helps the little bit of food in there to empty. I have made the bra, so hopefully that'll help it what's in there...out.

I don't want to turn him upside or use a tube, I'm much too nervous to try that. I hope the warm water will do the trick and I'll let you know how it goes.

Ok, I decided to go ahead and do the warm water now. If his crop isn't 'completely' empty at his normal feeding time, do I still feed him? By completely, I mean even that tiny bit of fold in that fold area. I'd say at least 98% of what he's been eating is emptying out of there and I don't want him to go hungry.

I'll be hanging here close to my puter, to check what you say, thanks for coming to my rescue Cynthia!

Izzy


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Ok, got the bra on Mel and gave him some warm water. Wasn't sure how much warm water to give, but enough to where his crop puffed up a little bit. I then massaged the bottom of the crop where the bit of food is sitting.

He's none too happy to be wearing this contraption, but now has calmed down a bit. Geez, it was sooo tough trying to make the bra small enough to fit him snugly without the bottom of his crop squishing out. I ended up making it a bit tighter on the bottom part, where I fastened behind the wings to keep his crop upwards and it's much looser at the top, where it's fastened behind his head.

I need to run out to do a few errands, but will be back in a few hours and keep you updated on his progress.

Thanks again,
Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

That sounds fine to me. I have sent an SOS out, hopefully someone will coma and advise soon!

Cynthia


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Is this young bird larger then the other. Feeding every 6 hours he may not empty out. Most young birds fed by there parents do not empty out at all. The parents feed at intervils. When i have hand raised young birds I just feed 2 times a day. And some times three. I feed until the crop is full. By putting the warm water down the crop and losing up the feed It should digest ok. You might check the young birds throat for canker. As if the crop is filling with air there is a good chance canker is present. Or it is devloping soar crop. But I think its gonig to turn out not a problem. I would not leave that bra on long. As the bird is grow fast now. And the crop will increase in size. Might just drop the feeding times to every 8 hours or try 2 times daily.


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

No, Mel is not larger than Misty, they are almost exactly the same size. I actually waited 8 hours to see if the crop would completely empty, but it looked the same at 6 hours as it did at 8 hours. Again, it's just a very small amount of food on both sides of the bottom of the crop, the sagging part of the crop.

Misty was really hungry at 2pm, when I would of normally fed both of them, but I waited until 4pm, so that's 8 hours since their last feeding. Misty's crop was completely empty and flat, like it's supposed to be. So, I fed her the normal formula mixture and then I made it extra thin for Mel. It was kinda like flavored warm water by the time I was finished mixing it. I didn't want to have him skip a meal and then be on two schedules for feeding, one for each of them.

I'll keep checking on Mel over the next 24 hours and see how he's doing. The bra is staying put and seems to be holding up his lower crop area. He actually looks like a little bird in a strait jacket, poor thing.

Thanks again for the info,
Izzy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello Izzy and sorry to hear about your little problem with Mel..

First let me say that baby pigeons' crops don't always work/empty the same way and sometimes in some birds the crop stretches more than the other..etc so not to worry about it and I think he should be fine as long as it is emptying.

For now if it is emptying slowly I would suggest you make sure he is warmed up well like Cynthia mentioned and have the formula made more liquidy and feed less amounts and watch to make sure it is emptying.
I would also suggest you put in more probiotics and get a product called "papaya enzymes" from the drug or natural health store. The enzymes are very effective for the baby birds and I heard about it from bird breeders.
I think it comes in capsule form and you can add the powder or crush the pill and add it to the formula.. Anyway, try to get some and see how that goes. Let me know as well if you find it.

I'm not familiar with the crop "bra" that Cynthia is explaining about, so I don't know if it will work or not but you can try it and hopefully everything will be ok with little Mel.

Take care and keep us posted!


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hello Mary and thanks for the information! I just checked Mel and I don't know if I'm seeing things, because it's hard to imagine just wearing that bra thingie for 8 hours has really done anything, but I swear, his crop isn't nearly as saggy! There is also hardly any food left in the bottom of his crop. Maybe it was giving him the warm water twice today, not really sure, but I'm feeling better about him and not nearly as worried as I was earlier.

I'll definitely take your advice and pick up that papaya enzymes and add it to their formula. Do you or do you know anyone that can tell me how much of this enzyme I need to use? Will it be ok to give to Misty also, even though she's not having any problems? I'm assuming that giving them this extra enzyme isn't a harmful thing, but guessing it's like a person taking a vitamin, something to help out, but not like a real drug or anything. Also, if you know of any side effects, I'd like to read those also.

I'd like to take the crop bra off Mel, I can tell he's not the most comfortable, as he's not moving around very well in it. Also, when he and Misty 'fence' with each other, it comes loose off his neck.

I'll be back tomorrow with updates.

Thanks again,
Izzy


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Hello Izzy,

Hope you can find the enzymes, try calling around first and asking if they are available, that way it will be easier for your friend instead of looking all over as I haven't found it around here but I know it has got to be out there and it's online as well.
http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=2940

Also because it's natural and I know the breeders use it then it wouldn't cause any harm to the other baby of course but I would just use it sparingly and especially when there is a crop problem. 
I think the papaya comes in capsules or pills from what I found online so you can just crush it up and put about 1-8 of a tsp in the formula and see how that is for now, I will try to find more info about this though to make sure..

Also I heard about using the seeds directly from the papaya, I will look into that too and see what I find.. 
I wouldn't worry about side effects, it should be ok and the bird breeders use it often so it should be fine.


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Here are some quotes about the papaya enzymes and doses from members here at pigeons.com:

"Just to clarify - I had suggested papaya enzyme as a remedy for slow/hard crop problems in babies. For that, I use 1 tablet crushed, per hand=feeding, mixed in with the babies regular formula, soaked Monkey or Puppy Chow, until I am sure the problem is resolved, usually a few days. I haven't given it on a regular basis to my weaned birds. As long as it doesn't give him diaherra, I suppose it probably won't hurt him, as it is a digestive aid, but if his digestion seems ok and his crop is emptying every few hours, then it probably isn't necessary. Just keep it on hand in case of emergencies. Hope this clears up any misunderstanding. 

Blessings to you and Horace, cynthia ark"

Wild Dove:
"I do know that papaya aids in digestion, and can be whizzed up in the formula mix to help prevent crop binding"

"papaya...it is very good for digestive upsets. I used to whiz a bit in a blender until smooth, and then syringe a small amount to Ah...Poo twice a day. Papaya has special enzymes in it that help with digestion...it may not help, but it won't hurt Turkey."


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Mary and thanks for posting a reply so very quickly! I bookmarked the link you posted and I'll be making a few calls around tomorrow. Not a lot of places are open on Sunday here, so I may have to start first thing Monday morning. If I don't find it anywhere here on Monday, I'll definitely order it from online, so I'll have it soon, either way.

I just fed both Mel and Misty about a half an hour ago. (The crop bra was off of Mel and pooped on). I'm now positive that Mel's crop is better! I actually held them up, side by side, comparing crops and they are very close to being exactly the same! It was pretty obvious before that Misty's was much flatter and more taunt than Mel's, so I'm absolutely thrilled! I'm thinking maybe the crop bra didn't work that quickly, but possibly my giving him the warm water helped break up the bit of food at the bottom of the crop so he was able to empty and that little bit of extra weight from that food was pulling the crop down. Does that makes sense? lol! Anyhow, I'm just very happy to see him looking more like Misty now, in the crop area anyhow.

I made sure to feed Mel very thin formula again, I know they are getting nutrients and don't want to run the risk of the food getting stuck again.

Boy, they are moving around sooo much now! I used to just plop them both down on a hand towel and take turns feeding each of them. The one that wasn't eating, would just sit there and chirp a bit and wait. Now, while I feed one, the other is waddling over to me and trying to get into my hand, lol! They are really cracking me up, so full of personality and just so enthusiastic! They are now sleeping soundly together again and looks like I might have a good night's sleep.

Thanks again for all the info, I'll be back soon.

Izzy


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

I'm so glad that the crop has now managed get back to it's normal shape  and both birds are happy again. The main thing was that the crop was still emptying otherwise the bird would starve to death. 

Just for reference any future emergencies, I used a childs sock for a crop bra, cutting out holes for the wings, it does have to be tight enough to support the crop (lifting it slightly to the right hight for the crop muscles to pull the food through), but not overtight where it can trap the food even more. I believe that the crop doesn't have to be fully empty after each feed, but should be once every 12 hours. If the chicks crop didn't/wouldn't empty completly at least once during 12 hours (normally overnight) I would not feed the chick in the morning cause if the crop didn't empty completely it would cause the crop to empty less slowly and cause sour crop. 

At that point I would keep massaging the crop at any opportunity I would get and give good amount of potent brew with a couple of drops of malt vinager, cause this does cause the food to break down. I would give Potent brew and vinager every couple of hours. I would also give Poly Aid which is a formula to stop a bird starving to death (magic stuff!)  - Karen x


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Karen and thank you for your post! First question is about Poly Aid, is that something I can find at my local Petsmart? That is where I purchased the Kaytee Exact. I'm sorry I have no clue what Poly Aid is and not sure if it's a vitamin type supplement I can get at a drug store or something specifically for birds.

Misty, the other squab that is growing by leaps and bounds doesn't usually have a completely empty crop either, when it's feeding time again. But her crop isn't saggy like Mel's either.

The sock idea is great! I ended up making a little bra from this stretchy bandage I had to wrap about my knee. It's like spandex and supports well, plus I cut the velcro smaller to accomodate Mel's size. I found that tying it around his neck/head as well as behind his wings was just so awkward for him, so it just fastens behinds his wings now and looks like a square bib. It definitely is holding the crop upwards and after feeding, even though I didn't feed him as much as I used too, the crop is pretty puffy and he's able to rest his chin on it! I did really worry about the tightness of it, I just make sure the bottom of the crop stays inside the bra. When it's too loose, the bottom of the crop can push out, which doesn't help at all. I pretty sure I've got it on correctly.

I'm will start adding the vinegar later today at his next feeding. I'm hoping he really starts to grow the next day or two.

Thank you very much again,
Izzy


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi Izzy, glad to hear they are doing well. I get the Poly-Aid and the Potent Brew from "The Bird Company" which is sold at my local garden centre "Golby's" The Vinager I mentioned what I used to go with the Potent Brew, I have never used it in the feed, although I know that Potent Brew you can. The Bird Company suggested that I gave a cockatiel 1-2ml every few hours should the crop not empty, although on the packaging it should only be a few drops. 
*Potent Brew* is a unique liquid nutrition supplement for addition to food or drinking water. Helps bring adults into breeding condition. Supports healthy chick growth. Helps restore beneficial bacteria to the gut of sick or stressed birds. Increases vigour of breeding birds and improves chick survival rates.
Application: Add to fruit, soft food or soaked seed : Finches/canaries - 1 drop per bird, 1ml per 30 birds; Budgies - 2 drops per bird, 1 ml per 15 birds; Cockatiels - 4 drops per bird, 2.5 mls per 10 birds; African Greys - 15 drops per bird, 1 ml per pair. Do not use in the same drinking water as Aviclens (Saniclens). Add to water 5 ml per litre. 
*Poly Aid * Emergency nutrition for sick and injured birds, it stop sick birds from starving to death so it is used where 'starvation' is the greatest threat. It can make up to 100% of the diet in very sick birds. In these extreme conditions it is normally given by crop itworks on the immune system and provides nutrients (energy, protein and vits/mins) that are easily absorbed even from a poorly functioning gut. Obviously if Poly-Aid(Survive) is used at low levels the quantity of these 'extra' nutrients is quite small. It is the nature of the protein and energy that will really having an impact. You can use as much Poly-Aid(Survive) as you like. If you can't find a supplier locally, you can goto "The Bird Company" via the internet and purchase direct  xx


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi Izzy, also forgot to mention, when you do feed, and the crop becomes quiet full, you will notice two air pockets each side of the neck of the bird, when you see them well this gives you the indication that the crop is full. X


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

Izzy, just wondered about the crop problem and a thought to another reason to why it might be happening. Noticed you use a heat lamp, you can alway's adjust the heat a little higher to enable the crop to work better, or if its too high the food will become very dry in the crop and very hard to pass. Make sure you have a water bowl in their area, which they can't get to, a tall beaker or something, that they can't knock over either, it stops the air becoming too humid, cause this too could cause problems with the crop. - Karen x


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi again Karen and thank you for all the info! I'll have to call around to find the Poly Aid and Potent Brew, would like to at least have that on hand.

I never thought about the red light and where it is having anything to do with the crop, but that's a good thought. This is my setup: I have the red light hanging at doorknob level about 2 feet up. I have the two boxes that Misty and Mel are in and those two boxes are on another larger box, they are about 1 1/2 feet off the ground. I never have the red lamp directly on them, I did in the beginning, because they were shivering alot, but now I drape a towel over their boxes, not completely, but halfway. The red lamp shines on the boxes and warms it up, while the towel keeps the heat in there. I keep a little square thermometer exactly at head level of the chicks to make sure it stays at 80 degrees F all the time. During the day, depending on the outside temp, I will either turn off the lamp or pull it further away from the boxes. In the evening, I put the lamp a little closer to maintain the temp.

We have a very humid climate here, so I'm sure they are getting enough humidity. But I do have humidifier that I use in the winter time here, when the air starts to dry up a bit. We usually maintain at least a 75% to 90% humidity rate here in St. Louis.

I check their crops several times a day, it's never gotten hard in their crops, very liquidy and easy to move around. I try to keep a very close eye on that.

Ok, now I'm going to see if I can find a thin box to help Mel's left leg, thank you again for your time and advice.

Izzy


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Izzy,

It may be too thin... or not thin enough... or too flimsy... but a ceral box may be thin enough if you cut it down a bit? Or maybe one of those long thin boxes waxpaper or aluminum foil comes in??


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Ohhh, good idea about the aluminum foil box, never thought about that! I think a cereal box might be too flimsy. I was looking at the cardboard boxes I had, never thought about looking in my kitchen cupboards, great idea Zig and thank you so much!

Izzy


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Oh WAIT!!

If you do the Aluminum foil box, make sure to REMOVE that SHARP metal edge thing they put on there!!!


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

OMG, I'm not a complete moron Zig, of course, I would remove that, lmaoo!! That would be just great, I fix Mel's leg but saw him in half, ackers!!


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Izzy said:


> OMG, I'm not a complete moron Zig, of course, I would remove that, lmaoo!! That would be just great, I fix Mel's leg but saw him in half, ackers!!


 DOH!


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

LOL Zig!


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## Karen 210773 (Mar 17, 2004)

LOL, sounds like a great idea  Good entertainment here too  Good luck and keep us posted x


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Sorry, didn't mean to have humor at the sake of my little Mel, but couldn't resist, cause Zig made me laugh, lol!


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, you have to have a bit of humor about such things, otherwise you go bonkers.  Anyway... glad to help...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

From seeing the latest pictures. I really did not see a problem . Young birds as they get older the crop size increases. And when fed by parents never really get empty. You might get some grit then force feed a small amount at each feeding to aid digestion. And if the formula is still soft in the crop its probably ok. And feed agin. sour crop is a problem you would notice that though.


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

I think you are right re lee, I mean, Misty is growing like a weed and her crop never "totally" empties either. I think maybe Mel just differs from Misty, just because they were both hatched on the same day, doesn't mean everything about them is identical, right?

Mel is really doing well now. I think adding the probiotics last week and now adding a pinch of Prime and Papaya Enyzmes has really helped him alot! He's growing quickly, gaining weight, my only concern at the moment is that his wings hardly have any feathers on them. Well, there are feathers, just very short. Misty's feathers are long and when she flaps her wings, I can feel a breeze, lol!

I just have to believe no two creatures develop at the same exact speed. Mel seems happy and healthy right now, so I'll just hope for the best.

Thanks for your input,
Izzy


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