# Tameness Evaluation, Please? Also, cage bar width.



## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

*Feral, tail-less pigeon let me pick it up.*

This evening, I saw an unusual number of pigeon feathers on the sidewalk, as I made my way home after work. Then I spotted an adult pigeon standing, puffed up, in a parking lot behind a parked pickup truck. It didn't have any tail, but other than that it looked uninjured (no blood, not standing lopsided).

I walked up to it and sat down next to it, and it only opened its' eye to look at me, then closed it again. I finally decided to try picking it up, and it let me. He looked at me brightly, gave me a slight peck, and wiggled only a little in my hands. I knotted the wrist end of the sleeve of my jacket, slipped him in, and carefully carried him home. As though I knew what I was doing, or something.

He is now in a newspaper-lined cage about 12"w x 18"h x 24"l, with water and wild bird seed, and a dishtowel, a heating pad underneath (on low) and a blanket draped over the top. The room he is in is currently used for storage, so it's pretty quiet even though he will surely hear us in other parts of the house.

He's been very docile, so I am concerned he is exhausted, in shock, or ill. He first had a runny yellow dropping, but has had what I think is a normal one since then (hard to tell, he pooped it into the water bowl). I looked him over and found no blood or obvious injuries--just a bald butt. His eyes and nostrils are clear, his feet look like they are in good shape. His wings are folded symmetrically at his sides, so I guess they are good, too, even though he hasn't flapped them for me. But I don't know how to properly hold or examine a pigeon.

I assume the loose feathers I saw on the sidewalk were his (they were the same color he is: classic gray), and that whatever attack robbed him of his tail feathers happened soon before I found him.

No leg or arm bands I could see. The vet I called (trying to find a local pigeon fancier) mentioned an ID tatoo, but I didn't know where to look for one.

Are any of you in mid-Missouri?

Any advice anyone wants to offer would be appreciated! Thanks!

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edit: photos posted to Flickr. See them at http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157607160920249/
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edit: videos are uploading to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=LizTungsten


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mixliz, 




Well...my best guess based on what you describe, is that this Pigeon has 'Canker' aka, a Trichomona infection of it's digestive tract, and, possibly elsewhere also, or less probably, some infection occasioning 'yellow' drool-urates or yellow Urates of whatever liquidy sort...and, for being so sick with that, was caught by a Cat or Dog, and, escaped, loosing his or her Tail Feathers, and, using about the last of his or her reserves to get away...


And, that if this Bird can get onto a regimen, injected NOW if possible, and if not, then orally, of 'Metronidazole' ( or kindred, ) for the Canker, and, 'Clavamox' or 'Baytril' for the probably systemic bacterial infection he or she now has from the Cat or Dog getting him...


If he can get on those meds NOW, he might survive...


Tomorrow will probably be too late...


Sorry to have to say that, but, that's my best guess...


Provide definite warmth, so the Pigeon is for sure nice and really 'warm'...and quiet soothing surrounds, a draped Cage even...


Provide a nice little low Bowl of Water...soft Towell or cloth to nestle in...


And, if you can get to a Vet "A.S.A.P." tomorrow, if he is not an Avian Vet, or even if he is, feel free to tell him, that the prospective diagnosis you need medicines for, are "Trichomoniasis-dash-Canker" and 'Pasteurella'...and of course the meds need to be in doses proportioned for the Bird's weight...

An injection of 'Metronidazole' would be best, followed by an oral regimen, if the Vet can do it.


It is a very rare Vet who even knows anything at all about Canker, even many Avian Vets do not seem to have any experience or know how with it, so...




Dose for which, would be 250 milligrames of Metronidaole, per "Kilo" of patient weight, and, if this is an average feral of say 300 Grammes, that would mean about 60 Milligrammes then.


The other meds for the probable 'Pasturella' infection, I do not have the doses handy, but he can look it up...

Usually, if infected by a Dog or Cat, a feral will have three or four days tops before dieing, unless treated...and one already ill with something else, a coulpe days, tops...and this is already possibly day two or three for all we know, so...he likely does not have much time left to hang on unless Meds can be admistered...

So, do your best for tomorrow morning, if possible, unless we have any Members with Meds who could meet you tonight, and who knows, he might just hang on and make out alright...



Good luck...



Phil
l v


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Hi MizLiz,

Thank you so much for taking this piji into your home. If you wouldn't mind sharing the exact town your in we may be able to better locate someone in your area. 

Also, check your yellow pages for emergency animal care - probably under Vets. Many towns have 24X7 emergency services - you could call ahead & explain the situation and medication advice Phil provided.

Good luck!


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks Phil and Deziree for the advice. I'm in Columbia, MO.

This morning he was perked up, no longer puffed up, pecking at the wild bird seed (though it seems only one in ten he actually swallows instead of casting aside). He let me watch him do some grooming and pecked at some seeds in my hand. Will get him better food today. 

Poops are two tone, but do have a yellow cast, so to the vets he goes.

I moved him to a cat carrier (had to clean the first cage anyway).Have not seen him drink, but no sign of dehydration.

Can a pigeion fly without any tail? How long until the tail grows back? How lonely will he be without other pigeons?


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

MizLiz said:


> Thanks Phil and Deziree for the advice. I'm in Columbia, MO.
> 
> This morning he was perked up, no longer puffed up, pecking at the wild bird seed (though it seems only one in ten he actually swallows instead of casting aside). He let me watch him do some grooming and pecked at some seeds in my hand. Will get him better food today.
> 
> ...


Yes he can fly, but regrow doesn't take long. A few weeks. He will be lonely, but he's more interested in food right now it seems.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, they can fly without a tail but they use it to help them land and do close maneuvering. It usually takes a few weeks for them to grow one back.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

When you chek him over later, look very closely for puncure wounds especially around the crop area. They can sometimes be hard to see.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Check inside his beak, in good light or with a small torch shining to the back of his mouth. Should be more or less pink and clear of any obstruction. If there is any yellowish cheese-like growth, that would confirm one form of canker, to be treated with the Metronidazole Phil mentioned or with Flagyl.

Normal poops would be a dark brown to olive green with a topping of white. If the topping is yellow tinged then it could be an internal form of canker. If the bulk of the dropping is yellowish rather than a darker color, and are consistently that color, then it could be another problem. Poops can be a good guide to illnesses but don't necessarily or always in themselves pinpoint a specific problem. 

If you can find a vet who will take the time (and has the equipment) then some problems - including canker - can show up from a swab under a microscope.

In choosing a vet, do be aware that too many of them will virtually disregard pigeons or will put them down after little more than a cursory once-over. Check their policy first and make it clear you will continue with the bird's care.

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MizLiz said:


> Thanks Phil and Deziree for the advice. I'm in Columbia, MO.
> 
> This morning he was perked up, no longer puffed up, pecking at the wild bird seed (though it seems only one in ten he actually swallows instead of casting aside). He let me watch him do some grooming and pecked at some seeds in my hand. Will get him better food today.
> 
> ...




Hi Mizliz,



Wow...


Very glad to hear..!


Can you post some images?


Make sure the Vet understands right off, that you are going to contuinue taking care of the Pigeon...they can presume it is being dropped into their Lap, and then they appease the person and put down the Bird soon as the person leaves...so, do do not let the Pigeon out of your sight while there, either.



As others mentioned, examine the Pigeon very carefully for any injurys or holes or punctures or scabs under the Feathers...and, if you can, indeed, get them some good Seeds.

'Dove Mix', when it consists of tiny whole Seeds with some WHite Safflower also, is very good, and 'Petsmart' probably has it.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Back from the vet. Vet looked the pigeon over, especially at his bald rump, looked at the poop in his carrier, and declared him healthy. I mentioned that posters on this forum suggested canker, but the vet did not seem concerned (did not look in the pigeon's mouth). Recommended a food especialy for pigeons instead of making do with something else. No mention was made of possible parasites. I asked if he needed a bigger cage while he grew his tail back, and the vet said yes, something larger than the cat carrier he was in. Like a larger dog crate with a perch bar, maybe.

He's putting up more resistance to being handled. So, I haven't had a good look for puncture wounds. His feistiness is a good sign, but it also means I'm going to have to learn the proper way to catch and hold him. Another reason to find a local pigeon fancier, for advice. 

I have a wire dog crate, and also a used, tall ferret cage. Which would be better, the horizontal or the vertical?

The smallest bag of pigeon food I could find was 50#. I bought it. The food is in little cylindrical shapes. Will a wild pigeon recognize it as food? How much does one pigeon eat? I'll need to split the bag with someone to keep it from going to waste. If he refuses to eat it, I can find dove seed mix in the local pet stores.

Is taming him possible? Should I try? How?

Photos to come.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MizLiz said:


> Back from the vet. Vet looked the pigeon over, especially at his bald rump, looked at the poop in his carrier, and declared him healthy.



Most Vets are idiots, and it is usually very important to in fact insist they consider the prospective diagnosese when one has an informed one to offer.


It is a sort of delicate thing of course, since they often have lots of 'touchy' pride, and, of course, their 'pride' has never saved one Animal, nor ever will.



But, who knows...

Maybe your Pigeon has fought off his or her infections, maybe they never had any in the first place...

Hard to say without seeing the Bird closely.


Your intitial description was consistant with a Pigeon who had probably 'hours' or aybe a 'day', left...




That the Vet did not even look into the Pigeon's Throat, is certainly disappointing, but then too, very very few Vets know anything at all about Pigeons, anyway, to have any idea what to look for, or why...or how to co-relate whatever is found out about the patient's history, with present symptoms or cues.




> I mentioned that posters on this forum suggested canker, but the vet did not seem concerned (did not look in the pigeon's mouth). Recommended a food especialy for pigeons instead of making do with something else. No mention was made of possible parasites. I asked if he needed a bigger cage while he grew his tail back, and the vet said yes, something larger than the cat carrier he was in. Like a larger dog crate with a perch bar, maybe.



Small size Cages are fine, and often best for convelesing Birds whom one prefers to remain sedentary...then, once well, for them to free fly indoors once they are deemed 'healthy' or 'healed' and just needing to grow new Feathers in and regain Muscle mass and so on.


At which phase, a Cage will interfere and hamper them, so, they need room to fly and exercise and so on.




> He's putting up more resistance to being handled. So, I haven't had a good look for puncture wounds. His feistiness is a good sign, but it also means I'm going to have to learn the proper way to catch and hold him. Another reason to find a local pigeon fancier, for advice.



For now, having him in a Cage would be best, have white Towelling on the cage bottom, so you can see, evaluate and count the Poops, even making some good images of them to post for us to see.




> I have a wire dog crate, and also a used, tall ferret cage. Which would be better, the horizontal or the vertical?



A small Cage would be best...so, if need be, partition off the horiontal one.


Easier to 'catch' them also, in a 'small' Cage...




> The smallest bag of pigeon food I could find was 50#. I bought it. The food is in little cylindrical shapes. Will a wild pigeon recognize it as food? How much does one pigeon eat? I'll need to split the bag with someone to keep it from going to waste. If he refuses to eat it, I can find dove seed mix in the local pet stores.



No good...


Go to any Pet Smart, and get a few various small Bags of 'Dove Mix', or 'Canary Seed' or 'Finch Seed' and a bag of 'White Safflower' Seed.


If you have any decent Farm or Feed Stores, get a real "Pigeon Mix"....these are usually 50 pounds, and cost 18 - 23 dollars.


'Pellets' are not likely to prove interesting to any Pigeon, and would be 'iffy' anyway as for their content or quality.



> Is taming him possible? Should I try? How?
> 
> Photos to come.




For now, just figure to provide general supportive care...and, see how things go.


If this Pigeon did get Pasturella, it will start to appear 'wilty' on about day three or day four since being clawed or bit...we do not know what day 'this' is, but, probably it is day three anyway, or day two.

The 'wilty' lasts most of a day, then they die.


So, if you see any 'wilty' demeanor, you know at that point, you have maybe ten or twelve hours left for getting him onto Baytril or Clavamox, if it can be injected, and even then, it can be too late for the drugs to over-take the degree of systemic infection...so, keep a good eye on him...





Phil
l v


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

So many vets are of the 'dog and cat' kind, so their day to day hands-on experience is of the most commonly kept domestic pets. That, of course, is their bread and butter business. I don't have an issue with that if they are up front about their limitations or simply say "We don't do birds". The problem is those who, as Phil says, obviously don't know what to look for, have little knowledge of birds, and then charge us for doing nothing useful. 

The bird could have had a brush with a vehicle, which can also result in feather loss including the tail feathers. We've seen this happen. Otherwise, if there are no punctures or scrapes anywhere, it's anyone's guess. 

Whatever cage you use needs to be at least big enough that the bird could fully extend his wings in any direction - that's a minimum requirement. Beyond that, height is not an issue, though a guide would be that the bird has head room sufficient for him to be able to stand on a house brick fully erect and have some space above him. Perches are unnecessary, but they often like to stand on said brick. Currently, I have a thick paperback book covered in white paper for one of my inmates, and he seems to find that an acceptable substitute. Ensure that the bird cannot stick his head through the bars of any cage and get caught.

John


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Images on Flicker at http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157607160920249/
Will post video on YouTube in a minute. Thanks for advice regarding food!


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Videos are uploading now to YouToube: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=LizTungsten

Lots of footage is redundant, but better safe than sorry. You might see some mannerism that I don't recognize.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

I saw him yawn yesterday. Mouth looked healthy, but did not study with a flashlight. 

The food is Purina Pigeon Checks. Which is an odd name since the pellets are cyllindrical and not square.

will hit the pet store for dove mix today. I know bread is a no-no, but what if it's whole wheat bread?

He must be eating something if hes still pooping, right?

====
edit: i just went in to check on him. He knocked his water bowl over ( I guess hes wanting a bath?) So now he's back in the cat carrier, with heat on low. I could feel his breastbone when I carried him to the cat carrier. He seemed friendly? preferring to stand on my hand to being held or fleeing. He walked up my arm and let me pet him a little, but he may have been trying to lure me into complacency and make a break for it over my shoulder?

Anyway, his poop is dark, rich green and chiffon yellow, if you can't tell from the flickr photos. Pretty colors, if they don't indicate disease, that is.

Inside the cat carrier, I am offering him the pigeon cyllanders, shelled raw unsalted sunflower seeds, and sesame seeds, and a little piece of whole wheat bread. He has pecked at them all but dropped them. Also his water cup, of course.

I saw him take a nice long drink this morning, then he seemed to stand over the water and splash in it a little. Which is where I got the idea to offer him a pie plate of water for a bath... but he just stood in it. Not deep enough?

Will seek out a real pigeon vet today. Doubt a 24-hr emergency vet open on sunday would know what to do with a pigeon, right?
===


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Hi MizLiz,

Wanted to catch you while you were still online... if the piji was healthy a little bit of whole-wheat bread would be okay (I've seen that listed somewhere as acceptable food), but since you're still not sure what type (if any) of infection your little patient has I would avoid the bread for now. Sticking with seeds and grains is your best bet.

Don't rule out the 24 hr emergency clinics for avian treatment - just call before taking him/her there. Oh - and tell the vet it's your pet pigeon - many times that gets better attention than a rescue or feral. 

Also, worse comes to worse I do have some Clavamox I can overnight to you - but the quickest it would arrive is Tues. [Phil/anyone more experienced with meds - they are 62.5Mg/#14 tabs - MizLiz would need dosing instruction if necessary]. If you PM me your mailing address I can have it already to go if you do need it.

I'm gonna go look at the pix and video now.

Dez


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks for the offer of mailing meds to me Dez, but I doubt my ability to pill a pigeon even with instruction.

Just got off the phone with the Jefferson City RPA guy. He was very very informative about finding a local vet. So I may be able to find someone!


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

That's great MizLiz - I also did some looking around -- some options for you:
Noah's Ark Animal Hospital
Veterinary Medicine and Surgery - Univery of Missouri (I think they have an emergency clinic)

do a Google search on "emergency animal care columbia, missouri" and I'm sure you'll come up with some options 

I'd say he's looking for a bath too  Do you have something a little bit larger than the pie plate? Maybe one of the long rectangular brownie pans?

Regarding the food - there is a PetCo about 2 mls from you:
2101 West Broadway Suite W
Columbia, MO 65203
573-446-6929
Looks like they are open til 7 pm tonight.

The food you should pick up is Kaytee Supreme Daily Blend Dove food. It comes in a 5 lb bag and shouldn't be that expensive. Here's a picture of the bag so you'll know what you're looking for:









They also sell Kaytee Forti-Diet Eggcite! Canary Food which you can mix in - my piji's love it; more like a treat to them - it may help get your patient eating more.









Good luck!! And keep us posted of course!


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

THank you Dezirrae!!!!

Now the bad news. Noah's Ark is where I took him yesterday. I made an appointment for a pigeon, but was seen by my usual dog's vet. Now advice from the experts says that probably wasn't good enough to do the job right. 

calling MU vet clinic now.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Pigeon has been eating the food Dezirrae reccommended for a few hours now. Seems perky. At the moment he is standing in the pie-plate of seed and is grooming himself all over. Have also offered a bowl of cockatiel grit, and a larger, deeper pan of water should he want a bath. Poop is still kelly green. 

As I was changing his food bowls, he bit my finger and held on, so I let him, and took a look inside his mouth. Looks clear. 

Got a good look at his raw red tail stump while he was grooming, a few inches from my nose. Looks un-infected. No smell. 

Still trying to contact a vet in town with pigeon experience. UM vet school does not have anyone.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MizLiz said:


> Anyway, his poop is dark, rich green and chiffon yellow, if you can't tell from the flickr photos. Pretty colors, if they don't indicate disease, that is.
> 
> 
> ===



Hi Mizliz,



Images of 'poops' ( actually, the Urates in this case, ) are consistant with 'Canker'...as far as the appearance of the Urates.

Possibly, they are consistant with other illnesses or infections also, but, as far as Canker related Urates I see, they are consistant, anyway.




What you are assuming is fecal matter, possibly is only 'Bile'...

If you smear some thinly onto a sheet of white paper, you will be able to tell if it is fecal matter containing fibre, or, merely a sort of paint-like 'pigment'.


Bile is an indication of starvation...


Possibly, you could pre-soak a few 'pellets' of the food you got, cut them then into some soft and smaller bite-sized bits once they are soft and 'puffy', and, opening his Beak, put them one at a time into the far back of his Throat, for him to swallow.


However, before doing this, have some one hold him vertically, and under a stong Light, open his Beak and look into his Mouth and Throat to make sure his Throat is 'clear' of infection or infection-debris, in order to both evaluate that for it's own sake, and, to make sure he WILL be able to swallow foods put into his Mouth/Throat.


Let us know what you see?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mizliz,



'Raw red rump' would sound like he escaped from a predation scenario...which then could mean he has a systemic infection progressing.


If I was you, I would settle for any Vet who would be willing to provide -


Metronidazole ( for probable 'Canker' which would be good also for whatever he has going, regardless... )

& 


Clavamox ( for probable 'Pasteurella' infection of a systemic kind )


And ONLY concentrate and insist on that...on those two things.


You can say you had a Pigeon expert DO the diagnosis already, and you JUST need the Vet to do a fast exam for feeling satisfied with it, and to provide you the Meds...




Glad to hear he is eating..!


Worried about the rest of it though...


Best wishes..!



Phil
l v


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Hi MizLIz - Wondering how your patient is doing tonight. I hope you were able to find a vet.

I don't know if any of these towns are near you, but this is what I was able to find listed on http://www.avianweb.com/

Chesterfield:
Dr. Kersting - Bird Medicine and Surgery
132 Four Seasons Shopping Center, Chesterfield, Missouri 63017 - Tel. (314) 469-6661

Gladstone:
Corey A. Entriken, D.V.M., Gladstone Animal Clinic
7027 North Oak Trafficway, Gladstone, MO 64118 - Tel. (816) 436-1100

Independence:
Dr. Jay Schweizer, Avian Vet - Chrysler Animal Hospital
12440 E New 40 Hwy, Independence, MO 64055 - Tel. (816) 358-2857

Kansas City:
Dr. William Suuedmeyere - Kansas City Missouri Zoo
6700 Zoo Drive, Kansas City, MO 64132 - Tel. (816) 871-5728

Nixa:
Dr. Hardy - James River Animal Hospital
1870 N Deffer Dr, Nixa, MO 65714 - Tel. (417) 725-1997

Raytown:
Dr. Julie Burge, Avian Vet - Burge Bird Services
8904 350 Highway, Raytown, MO 64133 - Tel. (816) 356-4700

St. Louis:
Dr. David Kersting - Avian Vet
132 Fours Season's Shopping Center, St. Louis, MO 63017 - Tel. (314) 469-6661

Webster Groves:
Gwen Heist - Webster Groves Animal Hospital

7979 Big Bend Blvd., Webster Groves, MO 63119 - Tel. (314) 968-


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

He's spent the afternoon and evening enthusiastically eating the Kaytee Supreme Daily Blend Dove food. The big round seeds are his favorite. They are going down quick, so I assume there is no obstruction. 

His feces are now olive green-brown, though still loose, and the white part is still tinged pale yellow. I'm reluctant to go back to Noah's Ark (they are my regular vet for my dog) and insist on meds when the vet there said he was fine. 

Dezirrae, thank you for the list of avian vets. They are all about a one and a half to two hour drive from where I am. The contact for the Jefferson City RPA gave me the name of an avian vet in Jeff City, and that's only 30 min away. I'll call her first thing tomorrow. I'll be sure to call this birdie a pet and insist on thorough care.

The pigeon is better groomed now, smoothed down, and curious about what is outside his cage, so I let him go for a one minute-long expedition. He walked up my arm, onto my lap, and then hopped onto the floor and walked around behind me where the bag of dove blend was, and started pecking at the clear part of the bag. He's figured out that's where the good food comes from. 

He's now in the cat carrier again, which has become his "night cage", and the lights are off. His "day cage" is the dog crate.

Thanks for all your help, folks. Sorry I'm being so frustrating, not getting meds into him yet!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Mizliz, 



Sounds good..!


Many of us who have seen quite a few sick and injured Pigeons, who when showing the symptoms yours has, one tends to expect the 'worst'.

Of course, not every one will in fact be ill, or be as ill as one might fisrt suppose.

Pigeons sometimes can come back 'up' and stay up, with just general supportive care, good food and water, and getting to be safe and provided for for a while.

This is the exception however...since usually, without meds for their illnesses, and a diagnosis of course for deciding the meds to use, they tend to come 'up' a little with general care, but to very soon or slowly, go 'down' if not given the operatively right meds.


Your Pigeon might have a very good immune system, and, with getting to rest, getting to have food and water and safety, is managing to beat whatever infections he or she had, without any meds.


So, golly, how nice!


But, of course, various of us here, me in particular, 'worry', so...I have no choice but to elaborate and detail my worrys in trying to provide insight or advice-at-a-distance, about little clues and so on relating to what I imagine to be the Bird's condition.


Anyway, you are doing great, and have hit the ground 'running' like a true champion...and the Pigeon has been responding very well...so, wow, very nice to see.


If you can, get a Tube of 'Neosporin' ( why did I forget to mention this earlier????) and liberally apply it with a clean finger tip, to the entire 'raw' area, and anywhere else which seems to be in any way abraded, 'raw or injured in any way. I say 'liberally' but I mean so the sin has at least a thin covering anyway, no need to be goopy with it, just so whaveter sin as would benifit from it, gets a nice thin coating.


Do this every day for a few days, anyway...and let us now if you find any other injurys in his skin anywhere.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

pdpbison, and others:

I do appreciate all the advice the forum members have given me, and am sorry to have requested help when I was still on the fence about how much effort and money I was willing to devote to this pigeon.

I am aware how unlikely it is to be able to walk up to and pick up a wild bird who was not on the very verge of death. I do not assume he is healthy because he is eating and grooming.

I feel very lucky that he has done as well as he has in the face of my ignorance.

The pigeon-experienced avian vet in Jefferson City (30 minutes away) gets to work at 8:30 am. I will make an appointment to take him there, hopefully today. The bird is doing well enough (perky and smoothed-down) that I have no fear of him dying before then. He will get a real examination, and meds if he needs them. 

And, I have Neosporin! I'll see if he lets me smear it on his butt.

I'm trying out names. "Leonard" does not fit. Neither does "Greybars". 

Here are his poops from this morning: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2838921011/


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Looks like a pretty good bunch of poop to me.

Ah, how we love our poops 

John


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Good morning MizLiz  No need to apologize - I think you're doing great and he has a much better chance of full recovery with you than out on his own with his bald little rump 

I had a feeling the places I listed were a bit far away - but figured it was worth checking. Glad you have a name for someone much closer! 

I think you have your name already... (from your last post) "Lucky". Just a thought anyway.

Good news that his appetite is so good and the poops (at least to me) look much better! I'm not quite the expert at poop viewing - but I would trust John's opinion for sure!

And if (likely) you do need to wind up giving your patient some pills - don't worry... it's not as difficult as you'd think. Though I confess the first time or two is a bit challenging until you and your piji get the hang of things. Phil has a great method of "burrito wrap" that helps keep the bird still. But cross that bridge when you get to it. 

Hope you get the appt. today in Jefferson and again, thanks for being so attentive to this poor guy


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Thank you so much for rescuing and taking in this poor little piji. It takes a very special person to devote so much of their time and money to save one little bird. You are certainly one of those people.

You are doing a great job, and the bird seems to be thriving with you. I sincerly hope that all continues to go well.

Many thanks again!!!


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

The pigeon has an appointment to see the vet in Jeff City at 4pm this evening. Will let you know how it goes. 

He did not let me smear his butt with Neosporin before I left for work this morning. You'd think he wasn't tame or something.  I'll ask the vet to show me how to hold and immobilize him, and medicate him, etc.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Hold on to your hats, folks..... He's healthy!

The new vet shone a light in his eyes and mouth, listened through a stethoscope to both sides of his chest and on his back, examined his rump and spread out each wing. Feathers were pulled out and broken, but there were no other injuries and no infections. He also lost a few tertiary wing feathers on one wing.

After explaining to me that the white part of the poop was white enough to be healthy-looking, she also looked at his feces under a microscope, and said he had almost no parasites, certainly not enough to harm him.

So, she said, after a few days getting three squares a day, he would be good to release.

He's so docile I wonder if he's wary enough to avoid getting attacked like he was. I wonder if it's safe to release him. But I did find him on a college campus, so maybe that's where he got used to people. And the vet said he was strong enough to struggle against being examined, so his docility isn't because of exhaustion, starvation or disease.

I'd like to keep him. I really like getting to know him. But I don't have the facility keep him after he regains his strength and some tail feathers. If all goes well, I'll try the reccommended soft release in our back yard. I only live four miles from where I picked him up. He should be able to find his way back if he wants to go. And find his way back here if he wants. I'll keep some of his food in the freezer in case he comes back to visit.

I think his name is RiffRaff. RiffRaphael.

I don't suppose any of you want to adopt him?


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

That's wonderful new MizLiz  Sounds as if it was a good & productive exam - what a relief huh?

I wonder about her saying he'd be releasable after a few days of rest though - Pidgey mentioned it taking a few weeks for the tail feathers to grow back and they do need that to help with maneuvering. So I do hope you can keep him at least until his tail feathers grown back. You know, building something to house one or two pigeons really is not very difficult  Are you in a house or an apartment? Either way - there's a thread here about buidling an indoor aviary (use the search feature at the top for "indoor aviary). And there's a member here that makes flight suits for pigeons that are indoor pets (aka "diaper). So there's lots of options if you do decide to keep him. But I suppose I am "jumping the gun"  Gotta make sure your house guest stays 100% healthy while them tail feathers are growing back.

Oh and by the way - would you mind PMing the name of the vet and address / telephone number to Charis (screenname) -- or send it to me. I believe she's assembling a list of resources in various states and sounds like you found a good one.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

*Happy Ending?*

Okay, assuming he lives long enough to be our pet... my husband is hoping I keep him for keeps, and we both think using a flight suit (trademark!) would be great. 

THe real difficulty would be with our two current pets. My husband's loving but very predatory cat (he brings us kills all summer long), and my loving but predatory dog (a terrier who I saw get very exicted once by a cage of finches). We will have to keep the pigeon totally seperated from our first two pets.

A pigeon is social. How many hours a day should a lone pigeon have people time? Should we adopt a second pigeon to keep him company (oh dear what am I getting into)?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miliz,



Very glad to hear the good news from the Vet.


Figure to keep him another three weeks before 'release', and by then in 'safe'
surrounds, make sure he seems strong and well able to fly strongly indoors anyway...


The College where you found him would be best...



Good luck..!


Good Work..!!!



Phil
l v


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## bweaz (Aug 1, 2008)

If you wanted to keep him, pigeons tame down really easily. And it sounds like your pigeon is already mostly tame. 

I get my pigeon up when I get up in the morning - I take him with me when I get ready (usually around 45 min), however, do not spray anything (hairspray, perfume, whatever) around him - that could kill him. Anything with a strong odor, teflon, cigarette smoke, an oven on self clean, any cleaning chemicals could kill him. It sounds like a lot to remember, but it is really common sense - anything that could emit fumes (even if we consider them light fumes) could do damage to a bird's lungs. So, if you are going to clean, just tuck the pigeon in his cage (in another room), crack a window and clean. If you are going to cook with teflon pans, same thing, tuck pigeon away, crack window and cook. However, they do have great cleaning solutions on the market that are "bird safe". You can find them readily on the internet.

I put him in his cage for the day.

Then at night, I get him out when I get home. Usually he is out with me from 6 pm to 9:30 pm. Most of the time he does his own thing. I let him wander around my apartment (I keep him in view). He investigates things (I have bird proofed my apt) and when he is done he comes back over to me and lets me pet him.

I have a big "cat/ferret" cage for him to stay in while I am gone. He lives by a window so he can see out and can get some sunshine - sunshine is the only way pigeons can metabolise calcium. Since this is a feral pigeon - mine is an american racer - be careful of the bar spacing on the cage. I wouldn't get anything over 3/4"-1" wide (when you start looking at cages the spacing will be part of the description). If you get wider than 1" you run the risk of having the pigeon sticking his head through the bars and snapping his neck. The pigeon I had previously (a feral) could get her head between the bars of my current cage, however, she unfortunately passed away (not from anything to do with the cage) and since the pigeon I have now is bigger, he can't get his head between the bars.

If you were worried about him being lonely while you are gone you could get another pigeon. Sometimes you can adopt pigeons from agencies around you or you can go on-line and have one shipped to you or you can see if there are any hobbiests in your area (there always are). 

I have a cat also and he hasn't ever bothered the pigeon. HOWEVER, he is an indoor cat, he is really old, he only hunts house flys (after they are half dead) and I have other birds that scare the daylights out of him. I do always watch to make sure my cat hasn't taken an unusual liking to the birds. I never leave the cat and the birds alone together unless the birds are in their cages. AND I WILL SAY, that dogs are just as aggressive around birds, if not more, than cats. A cat's saliva will kill a bird quickly, but a dog bite will normally kill a bird instantly (due to the strength of dog jaws). In the beginning, you may have to be a little extra vigilant but soon it will seem like second nature. My birds ride around on my shoulders and that is how I keep track of them.

This may seem like a lot of info, but I like to type ... just kidding. Really, it is SUPER, SUPER easy to keep a house pigeon or pigeons. Way easier than keeping any type of parrot -parakeet, cockatiel, conure, etc (and I've had most of them). After my first pigeon, I will NEVER EVER be without a pet pigeon. They are the greatest pets ever!!! Hope this helped.


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

*hey liz!*

sounds to me, sister , that you and the hubby would be GREAT pigeon parents! 

i rescued and rehabbed a little guy and i agree on the whole 'i will never be without a pigeon' statement - i love my little trooper passionately. really. i completely get why pigeons/doves are the symbol for peace - i pet him and his little eyes squint up and he hunkers down like a grey feathery cow pie....ohhhhh....it just kills me. 

and they are ridiculously easy to take care of. much less messy and/or destructive than parrots, that's for sure!!! 

and you found THE right place to discuss anything pigeon-related, believe me!
i love these people!!!!

i'm glad you're taking care of him. somehow i think they know it, and appreciate it - funny how he seems so tame, huh?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

That was a great result, MizLiz. The vet you saw sounds like someone who has a better idea how to check over a pigeon than your 'fido and tiddles' vet 

At least while the tail grows back you'll have a chance to see how tame he really is. 

Many pigeons seem to settle in and adapt to our homes very quickly, and are unafraid, but just want to be pigeons and do pigeon things. I have one now who doesn't mind how close I am - I talk nose to beak to her - but really hates to be picked up or have my hand too near her. But then, she is a young adult feral who lived with the flock until she fell ill, and wants to be with other pigeons.

John


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

I have lots of questions, but Fred (I tried other names, that one fit) is no longer in a state of emergency, so I will post in the other areas.

Thank you, everyone who commented! I couldn't have helped Fred without all of you.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Hello there. I have no experience with pigeons, and am tending a rescued feral who is out of danger, healthwise, for at least six weeks (until his tail feathers grow back). My husband and I are impressed with how tame and nice he is and woud like to keep him as a pet. Therefore, I have a lot of questions. Any info you can share with me would be appreciated!

The pigeon's name is Fred. I tried other names, but that is the one that stuck.

If I tell you guys what Fred does, can you tell me how tame he is? I'm wondering if this is a normal way for a feral pigeon to be.

I found him on Friday September 5, about 5:15 p.m. You can read the adventure of his rescue if you want here: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/feral-tail-less-pigeon-let-me-pick-it-up-29874.html 

I was able to spend much of the weekend with him, but I work full time during the week. So I haven't spent as much time with him since Monday.

He does not bother running away when my hands come for him. He's always been okay with my slowly picking him up, scooping with both hands under him. 

Often, he steps onto my hand when asked (gently prodded), and rides in my hand when I carry him slowly across the room.

He voluntarily walks around on my lap, and walks under my arms and behind me to get somewhere. He chose to stand on my hand to lean down and drink out of a tub of water.

He has allowed me to give him some index-finger scritches, but I don't know where pigeons like to be scratched, and I don't think he understands what I'm trying to do.

Sometimes he takes my finger in his beak and holds on for about a second. I do not know what this means. Is there a guide to pigeon language anywhere?

My husband was surprised I haven't already ordered Fred a FlightSuit diaper, but geeze, I don't know if I'll be able to convince Fred to tolerate putting it on. It would be wonderful, though! Do you think he's a good candidate?

Also, the wire dog crate I keep him in has bars about 1 1/4 inches part. He can easily get his head and neck though, and back out again. The width of his chest and shoulders keeps him in the cage. I am looking for a better cage for him, but in the meantime, is he in immediate danger from this cage?

Thank you!!


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## brentjohnf (Sep 8, 2008)

good story, sound about how I would feel if my tail feathers were pulled out also probably would have "runny yellow droppings."LOL

Can you post some photos up for us to see wut he looks like... Sound like you have a pet, The cage he is in, sounds ok as long as there no hungry animal around... if you keep him, one weekend project you can buy are build him a small coup to live in...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, the cage does pose a danger, as we have a member who's bird got his head stuck thru it while he was away. The rabbit cages seem to have the bars spaced closer together, and the cages are longer which is better for pigeons.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I think that for now everything seems to be going pretty good. I would caution you though, that maybe his tameness is due to his injury or maybe not. It WAS a wild pigeon, and I would say that if anytime in the near future, the attitude changes and it seems that maybe it's not REALLY happy being confined, to let him go back to where he came from.
Domesticated pigeons and babies that are found and raised and imprinted on humans is one thing, but to take a pigeon that up to a certain point in it's life had been living just fine in the wild, and try to make a pet out of it when there are countless pigeons that can never be released back to the wild that need homes, isn't the right thing to do IMO.
Having said that, Fred just might like the good life and never look back and everything will be fine for years to come. 
I guess what I'm saying is take it a day at the time and see how it goes. He sounds like he's taken up with you just fine and if that's the case, then good for him and good for you. If he's happy and you're happy, that's what matters. 
If however he ever gets that "look" and gets antsy like he want to return to where he came from, then it would be the kindest thing of you to release him.
I"m sure you've already thought about all of that.....but just in case...
As far as the cage..........inside it's fine. Outside, he wouldn't last long if a cat or hawk came along. 
I would also make a perch out of a 2 X 4. They really prefer something flat to roost on as opposed to round.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

MizLiz said:


> I have lots of questions, but Fred (I tried other names, that one fit)* is no longer in a state of emergency, so I will post in the other areas.*


Actually it might be best to combine the two threads, that way we have the history on your bird. We get alot of threads here and it is easy to forget and get confused. You can consider it if you would like.

Thank you.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> If however he ever gets that "look" and gets antsy like he want to return to where he came from, then it would be the kindest thing of you to release him.


You're right Lovebirds. I knew that when I took him in, but I needed the reminder. Thanks.


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## bweaz (Aug 1, 2008)

For bar width, I go with something about 3/4". Someone said rabbit cage earlier, and that works. If they get their heads between the bars they can snap their neck. 

My pet pigeon steps onto my hand and loves to have her head scratched.


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Liz,

As others have said Fred seems to be doing great for now. I'm so very glad he's with people as loving as you & your husband. Piji's are very addicting - so even if the time comes to release Fred I am certain you'll find another one quite soon  But Fred will be with you for awhile with his tail growing back - that's for sure. 

Check out Craigslist for used cages -- many times bird or rabbit cages are listed there for very reasonable prices. Just remember to scrub the heck out of anything used (even if it looks perfectly clean)  The other thing you could try with the dog crate you have is putting some hardware cloth around the cage (from Home Depot or Lowe's). 

I can't remember if you have set this up for him yet or not - but a good sized basket with some soft cloth would be a nice bed for him. Others here use different bedding material, but my pijis seem to prefer crumbled newspaper covered by a few cotton towels... then again, my pijis also seem to like the round perches - so I think they're probably a little "off center" anyway. 

I'm sure Fred would also appreciate a brick in his cage -- it's good for their toenails. And something else Fred may like - you'll have to try it & see - is a mirror. My girls love it! Will stand in front of it and preen for hours - no kidding 

Looking forward to further updates - and of course - more pictures!


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I've enjoyed Fred's uplifting story so far and look forward to more.  It's so nice to see someone who goes to so much trouble to help a pigeon; we all know vets aren't cheap!! He's quite the lucky guy to have found you and your husband. 

As for releasing, it all comes down to the individual pigeon; I've had feral adults who wanted nothing to do with me during convalescence and couldn't wait to be released, and then I've had many who bonded immediately or over time with me and refused to leave.  Some become so tame (which you can't really prevent) that you feel it's not safe to let them go into the wild again. So I would enjoy Fred while he recovers, and then leave it up to him when he's 100% again. It does sound like he is pretty used to people, probably from living on campus. As you get to know him better, you'll be able to know what to do when it's time, don't worry. 

I have a little pigeon, Toto, who was hand-raised, and when she "flirts" with me (she wants me to be her mate ), she grabs my finger in her beak for a few seconds. She would do this with another pigeon "beak to beak" so I think that is what it's all about. Sounds like Fred is flirting with you. Also, mainly younger male pigeons (teens) will bite during rough-housing, but from Fred's pictures I would say he is an older bird, just in comparison to some of my ferals. Older meaning two years or more, which is nothing in a pigeon's lifespan. . .some have lived up past thirty years! The average "long" life for a pigeon is 20 years; of course, that's for a _pet _pigeon. 

As for the flight suit, I would let his rump heal up first just so you aren't putting the diaper over it. Then keep the Handi-Wipes near.  As for his cage, if it is in a room the cats and dog don't go into at all, then you can buy a small roll of garden screen (it's pretty cheap) and wrap the cage in a layer of that. That should work. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

I have found a free cage with bars 1" apart. Is that better or worse than being 1 1/4" apart?


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Definitly better  And free is good too  Just curious though - what are the LxWxH measurements?


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

It's a used ferret cage, 24"w x 24"d x 37"h. I figured I could lay it down on it's side and put newspaper under it?

EDIT: I found it on the PetSmart website: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753322#prodTab1
A Super Pet My First Home Multi-Floor Ferret Home. Of course, the one I have has no shelves, toys, or rolling base.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

MizLiz said:


> It's a used ferret cage, 24"w x 24"d x 37"h. I figured I could lay it down on it's side and put newspaper under it?
> 
> EDIT: I found it on the PetSmart website: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753322#prodTab1
> A Super Pet My First Home Multi-Floor Ferret Home. Of course, the one I have has no shelves, toys, or rolling base.



that cage may be ok but he will need to come out of it for a few hours everyday to get excersize and sunshine too and interact with you as they are social birds that live in flocks.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Will two hours a day outside the cage do? The cage is in a small bedroom, closed off from the cat and dog. We can clear out the junk and put in some old bookshelves for ledges.

One of us can sit in the room with Fred while he is out, but we both work full time, so only have a few hours each evening at home. I guess I can pay the bills or compose a grocery list while I'm in there with him, right?

I know Fred's accustomed to flying all day long in the wild, but he is underweight right now and needs to gain some weight. Still, I don't want to have to release an out-of-shape couch potato into the wild.

Sunshine! How much sunshine a day? He's only had a little direct sunlight (from the bathroom window) since the 5th.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

My philosophy is if a pigeon is happy and healthy and you're happy with him, then keep him. He sounds like he is off to a great start in being a pet pigeon and with you, he won't have to worry about his next meal or predators. Some pigeons simply don't "take" to being in captivity. We have two fledglings right now that will be released this weekend. They are so wild and cantankerous that they would never adjust to being in captivity. However, we have two more that are laid back, gentle, and friendly. They are almost like pet dogs . The nibbling is a sign of affection. Many of our "pets" will hold our fingers and its almost like they are nursing. 

You do need to get him out of the current cage. Treesa mentioned another member almost losing one of his pigeons because the bars were spaced too far apart. He came home to find his pigeon had put his head through one bar and then twisted it around to put it through another bar, making it impossible for him to get free. Luckily, this was caught in time and only resulted in a sore neck. Personally, I think no more than 1/2 inch is ideal. They don't need anything tall but need width in order to spread their wings so they can exercise without hitting the sides.

Many members use the flight suits and swear by them.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Actually it might be best to combine the two threads, that way we have the history on your bird. We get alot of threads here and it is easy to forget and get confused. You can consider it if you would like.


The threads are now combined.

Thank you.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

MizLiz said:


> One of us can sit in the room with Fred while he is out, but we both work full time, so only have a few hours each evening at home. I guess I can pay the bills or compose a grocery list while I'm in there with him, right?


Provided the room has nothing in it which either he can damage, or can damage him, then you don't absolutely have to be there to keep watch all the time. I have had several, flying and non-flying, who (once I was sure they were managing all right) I would allow to have the run of the room and just check occasionally. In fact, a couple of my limited flight birds were out even when I was at the office. But it's what you feel comfortable with. Of course, I wasn't keeping them longer than necessary for them to do quarantine.



> I know Fred's accustomed to flying all day long in the wild, but he is underweight right now and needs to gain some weight. Still, I don't want to have to release an out-of-shape couch potato into the wild.


As long as he has enough opportunity to keep his wings as active as he needs, he should be OK.



> Sunshine! How much sunshine a day? He's only had a little direct sunlight (from the bathroom window) since the 5th.


A few days or couple of weeks with little sunshine won't hurt. I believe unobstructed sunshine (i.e., not through a window) is what they really need, but indoor pigeons probably will mostly not get that. However, a calcium supplement now and then (Vitamin D3) can counteract the lack, given in addition to what calcium they get from pigeon grit. A liquid calcium is good - either in the water for maybe 3 days occasionally, or by a drop or two in the beak, depending on the particular brand's instructions.

Obviously he will need enough light, whatever the weather. The thing I have found with almost all pigeons who could reach my windowsill is that they got excited if they saw pigeons outside, and would flutter crazily up the glass, unable to figure why they couldn't get out. Eventually I think they seem to accept it (one at Cynthia's place realized, and just perched after a while) but I have to admit that makes me nervous in case one flies into it. Right now I have some sheets of cardboard covering the lower section, and one of my current residents now just stands without trying any pointless escape manouvers.

Another thing will be that he will probably like a bath eventually. A fairly big dish, plant pot tray or whatever could work, so he has a couple inches of water. Some birds are fine with a mist spray. They do find a bath relaxing, though, and good for preening.

John


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

MizLiz said:


> Will two hours a day outside the cage do? The cage is in a small bedroom, closed off from the cat and dog. We can clear out the junk and put in some old bookshelves for ledges.
> 
> One of us can sit in the room with Fred while he is out, but we both work full time, so only have a few hours each evening at home. I guess I can pay the bills or compose a grocery list while I'm in there with him, right?
> 
> ...


yes he needs to have a chance to sit in the sun for vitamin absorbtion. This is just my opinion as far as the cage goes, others Im sure will have a differing one. I feel that the cage is too small for a feral pideon to be cooped up in for 8 hours of the day they like to roost or go night night around dusk so in the winter it gets dark at what 5:30?...I think, again just my opinion the ideal if you keep him is a hutch/loft with an aviary where he can get sun and a mate he can call his/her own. all may not feel this way but only you can make choices for this bird...hope he does well what ever you decide.


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks for all your suggestions and advice, folks! You have all been immeasureably helpful.

EDIT: new Fred photos added to my Flickr account, including pix of the "new" cage, at http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157607160920249/


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

*Fred the pigeon goes home*

Hey folks,

Just thought you'd like to know I set Fred free Saturday morning. 

He had lost interest in my company, gotten skittish and hand-shy, and was pacing repetitively around his room. He wanted out. His tail was almost all grown back, and I hated seeing him unhappy.

I made sure he had food and fresh water when I got up, and an hour later I opened the window and watched him while he hopped onto the windowsill, looked around, and took wing. 

He circled the house one and a half times before heading straight for downtown, four miles away and where I originally found him.

I left the window open for him in case he wanted to return. No sign of that so far. I figure he dosen't have any reason to. I know Fred's happy to be with his friends again.

Thank you, everyone, for all your help.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You never know. He may come back for a visit if he is looking for something to eat. You might want to leave a little food out for him where he will see it. Just for a while anyway.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yes it is hard to make a pet out of a "wild" bird"...you gave him a good recovery!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Thank you so very much for taking the time and money to get Fred back to recovery. You are indeed a good person for caring for this blue bar pigeon in need of care. By the way, after looking at your pictures, I would say Fred is very likely a Frieda!

Fred looks just like my pet pigeon,Barbie Bluebar. Generally, the male pigeons have much more colorful irresdecsent feathers around their neck.

Maybe Fred will come back to see you. Maybe you will find another pigeon in need, Sometimes they find those willing to help.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WELL DONE, MizLiz!!

IF you and your husband would like a NON-releasable pigeon to love, there are SO many who could use a loving home like yours!!

Sure wish FRED all the best!!

With Love and Hugs

Shi


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## MizLiz (Sep 6, 2008)

Well Shi, Fred (Frieda? ) taught us that we like pigeons very much, and would love to have some for housepets. However, it will just have to wait until our current predatory pets have crossed the rainbow bridge. When that happens, we will adopt some tame rescues for sure!

I am very very pleased to have learned so much, and "meet" such nice folks because of this birdie. Take care, you all.

Liz


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