# why is this toy stencilling so white?



## mrottler (Jun 11, 2011)

These are saxon shields






. 
I do not know much about their background. I just know that they are too white compared to the spangle photos I see, and what should I breed to to get better spangles? What causes this white-out? With toy stencil you need two copies since it is recessive, so it isn't like homozygous causes whiter coloration, right? Do you think they were crossed with something else, such as ice pigeons or ? to get this white? I know a lot of people keep other similar german toys, so I wonder about that. Any guesses/opinions would be welcome, unless you just want to tell me that they are poor quality or that I should just buy new better ones. I am interested in the breeding/genetics aspect and this is what I have to work with. I am just wondering if breeding to a bar would help or a solid shield, or what.
Thanks,
Michelle


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Just a thought: lack of "Spread"?
Toy stencil is a complex of 3 genes.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I think these are all T-pattern or darker check patterns. Toy stencil makes the dark parts of the pattern white. Since almost the entire feather of a T-pattern pigeon is black, toy stencil is making almost the entire feather white, causing these light birds. I think they would correctly be called lace and not spangle.

If you need more colour in the shields, you could try mating to normal check birds (they show a lot of blue on the wing). 

For example, below is a check pattern.








I assume that this is the wing shield colour you are looking for?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

It does look like 'spangled' saxon shields are mostly solid coloured (spread or recessive red), looking at photos here.

They do have a picture of a blue spangle though. This bird is definitely not T-pattern/Velvet, but just medium check.


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## mrottler (Jun 11, 2011)

Thank you for your replies, so you think mine are velvet then and therefore too checked for a nice looking pattern? So mating to a white bar might be ok, or not? And additionally do they need spread? I have a dun white bar, think that might be a good combo? I assume it is spread it is a solid brown shield with white bars.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, spread and velvet stenciled birds end up more laced than spangled. So I agree, mating them to checks rather than t-pattern checks should help. You may get all t-patterns from the mating or you may get half and half, depending on whether your birds are split for normal check or not. But eventually you should get the right amount of checks/spangling through selective breeding


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

mrottler said:


> Thank you for your replies, so you think mine are velvet then and therefore too checked for a nice looking pattern? So mating to a white bar might be ok, or not? And additionally do they need spread? I have a dun white bar, think that might be a good combo? I assume it is spread it is a solid brown shield with white bars.


Mating to a white bar will not necessarily make better checks. T-pattern check and check are different genes altogether. If your birds do not carry a check gene the only way to be sure that you get check babies is to breed to check.

That being said, your birds may carry check (which is hidden by the T-pattern). So mating to a barred bird might help.

The answer to your second question is NO, they do not need spread. As you can see from the photo links I posted before, many Saxons seem to be spread, but they do not have to be.

Your dun white bar does sound like it would be spread. Go ahead and mate up a pair, you might be lucky and breed some nice spangles.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, spread and velvet stenciled birds end up more laced than spangled. So I agree, mating them to checks rather than t-pattern checks should help. You may get all t-patterns from the mating or you may get half and half, depending on whether your birds are split for normal check or not. But eventually you should get the right amount of checks/spangling through selective breeding


Just a comment. It is true that spread and T-pattern combined with toy stencil gives laced birds. But it is important to remember that spread and bar with stencil gives black white bar, and spread with check and stencil gives spangles.


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## to many pigeons (Feb 6, 2011)

i have a pair of marbled starlings ,one black ,one blue ,the babys r coming straight black no white at all,what is wrong in my similar situation


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

to many pigeons said:


> i have a pair of marbled starlings ,one black ,one blue ,the babys r coming straight black no white at all,what is wrong in my similar situation


Toy stencil is not visible in the nest feathering, but only shows up after the moult. This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult to move the toy stencil genes from one breed to another. Genes like opal, indigo, dilute and even archangel bronze will show their effects immediately on the squabs, this means the desired birds can be separated out early and the others can be sold or disposed of without fear of losing the genes you want. On the other hand, the toy stencil complex only shows up later, which means you have to keep ALL the offspring until the first moult.

It could be that you're youngsters will sill show the proper toy stencil (as long as both parent have white bar / check pattern), just give them time to mature first.

I'd love to see pictures of the parents.


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## to many pigeons (Feb 6, 2011)

my starling looks exactly like your picture of blue white check ,but has faint bib, making it a marmostar ,it also appears that the bibs r fading on my birds ,they r very rare in new zealand ,and no imports allowed ,i also have laced fairy swallows some r very good ,others have peppering ,as well as saxon spots.my first starling baby came with white in the nest.i also keep nuns ,helmets, pygmy pouters, english pouters, rollers, modenas, magpies, thief pouters, frill backs, bokhara trumpters, mondaines and lfcl tumblers and am rebuilding muffed lfcl tumblers. i keep 4 pair of each ,breed plenty then replace with the better offspring .the starlings r new this year so will breed 12 and keep the best 3 pair and the best 2 originals ,how long does it take to know if the bibs r going to be good or not and do u have any other information on starlings or toy stencil


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

to many pigeons said:


> How long does it take to know if the bibs r going to be good or not and do u have any other information on starlings or toy stencil


I am no expert on toy stencil, nor on the bibs you are talking of, but I do think that most birds show their true colors after the first moult. If the bib has not cleared up by then, I would assume they never will.

The only reliable information about toy stencil that I can give is that it is good expression requires at least three mutant genes. If not all of the genes are present, the birds will show varying colors in the pattern. The color can range from smutty bronze / brown all the way to pure white.

I am unsure about the genetics of the bib. If you are struggling to get the desired bibs in your birds, you should select more vigorously for the trait. This means never using a bird with a feint bib or no bib to breed to your birds with good bibs, unless you have absolutely no choice (in other words inbreed or line breed using the birds with the desired bib, and only do an out-cross when absolutely necessary). An outcross should only be necessary to improve color, markings, type or vitality. This is how the breeders of old used to breed the birds they wanted (before us genetics nuts came into the picture). Selection is the key.


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