# Can I get Red Tiger Grizzle from this pairing? Pic



## Pigeonfan94 (Feb 15, 2010)

Hey everyone I was wondering something. Since the hen is homozygous tiger grizzle and the cock is recessive red, all kids from this pairing will be heterozygous tiger grizzle and carry the gene for recessive red. If I were to mate the kids together shouldn't they produce red tiger grizzles?

edited to add: I wouldn't actually mate the kids together, Im just trying to understand the genetics of it all.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

In theory everything you are saying would be correct with most genetics, I am no expert on the subject but from what I understand to get a mottled look ( tiger grizzle ) on a recessive red bird is not as simple as you would think, Your example above would work for most other genetics but as I say I am unsure on the result of tiger grizzle and recessive red combined, Someone like maryofexeter or Rudloph est. should be able to shead more light for you.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

very pretty birds, and i am not sure you would want to breed brother and sister, maybe father to daughter or mather to son would be better.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> very pretty birds, and i am not sure you would want to breed brother and sister, maybe father to daughter or mather to son would be better.


Yes, They did mention they did not plan on breeding brother to sister. Just an example to help understand the genetics I think.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yes, They did mention they did not plan on breeding brother to sister. Just an example to help understand the genetics I think.


he said " if i were to mate the kids together would i get tiger grizzles in red " i think was thinking of breeding them..


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

It should all work, take a hen from the mating and breed back to the cock for best results. Just breeding two birds carrying red wouldn't give you as many as breeding the red cock to a hen carrying red.

he edited before anyone posted and said

"edited to add: I wouldn't actually mate the kids together, Im just trying to understand the genetics of it all."


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> he said " if i were to mate the kids together would i get tiger grizzles in red " i think was thinking of breeding them..


He also said, 

"I wouldn't actually mate the kids together, Im just trying to understand the genetics of it all"

I got the impression he was being hyperthetical to understand the genetics behind the birds.... Maybe I misunderstood. 

You are right though that its better to put son to mother or daughter to father.


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## 19pigeonracer88 (Nov 13, 2011)

hi what would i get if i bred a dominant opal with a grizzle also what would i get if i bred an andalusion with a redcheck or mealy


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Not sure on opal but an andalusion to a redcheck or mealy would produce a few things, Depending on the andalusian but lets assume he is het spread so only has one gene of spread

You would get a mix of blacks, Blues with indigo ( bronzing ), andalusians, Blues without indigo, Red spread ( strawberry ), red with indigo and without which would not appear much different to each other. Also depending on the patterns under the andalusian would depend on the patterns you got in the offspring. Do you have any idea of the patterns of the parents of the andalusian?


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

19pigeonracer88 said:


> hi what would i get if i bred a dominant opal with a grizzle also what would i get if i bred an andalusion with a redcheck or mealy


maryofexoder gave you the run down in your other post...


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## Pigeonfan94 (Feb 15, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the replies. They have really helped


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Are these house pigeons by any chance?


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## Pigeonfan94 (Feb 15, 2010)

chinbunny said:


> Are these house pigeons by any chance?



Hi chinbunny. The red cock is full house pigeon and the tiger grizzle hen is 3/4 fantail and 1/4 house pigeon.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

Darned. I was hoping to buy some babies from you to breed to mine. i did pm you earlier this year about a pair of siblings i had for sale. One was grey, but it was marked like your tiger grizzle. the other was red with white flights. I don't have any more for sale though, and those have already been sold. The red cock had an awesome head on him too. Didn't have much luck getting babies out of the house pigeons this year.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Just to butt in, as I always do when I see threads dealing with inbreeding.

There is nothing wrong with breeding siblings together, nor is there any problem breeding father to daughter or mother to son. Breeders of all domestic animals have been doing this for many years, pigeons, chickens, cattle, sheep, dogs and cats all have been line bred and closely inbred to establish a certain trait.

The trick is to not do such inbreeding crosses indiscriminately. There is always a risk of some hidden recessive gene causing defects, but most of these have been bred out of our domestic animals by generations of inbreeding.

In my loft it is not unnatural for a brother and sister to mate of their own accord, and when the pairing might give me an interesting result (like recessive red or brown), I do not interfere. So far, I haven't had any trouble.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> Just to butt in, as I always do when I see threads dealing with inbreeding.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with breeding siblings together, nor is there any problem breeding father to daughter or mother to son. Breeders of all domestic animals have been doing this for many years, pigeons, chickens, cattle, sheep, dogs and cats all have been line bred and closely inbred to establish a certain trait.
> 
> ...


I use the same technique on my rabbits, and have done a first generation father to daughter breeding on my archangel pigeons. I do whats called line breeding. I do whats called line breeding, which is lesser form of inbreeding. father daughter, mother/son, grandmother, grandson, etc. I never breed brother to sister. As far as bad genetics showing up goes, that's a GOOD thing. Because once you know the problem is there, you can breed it back out.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

chinbunny said:


> I use the same technique on my rabbits, and have done a first generation father to daughter breeding on my archangel pigeons. I do whats called line breeding. I do whats called line breeding, which is lesser form of inbreeding. father daughter, mother/son, grandmother, grandson, etc. I never breed brother to sister. As far as bad genetics showing up goes, that's a GOOD thing. Because once you know the problem is there, you can breed it back out.


I agree about the bad genes showing themselves being a good thing...

As a side note, genetically speaking, breeding mother/son and father/daughter is no better or worse from an inbreeding perspective than is mating 2 full siblings, the relatedness coefficient for such pairs are all the same...

This is a good thing to know, read up about coefficients of relationship and inbreeding, and then you'll be better able to judge whether a specific mating would be good or bad. With relatedness higher than about 0.75, you might start seeing weaker or feebler babies, due to excessive inbreeding. But lines with high internal coefficients of inbreeding will produce hybrid vigor when crossed to an unrelated (or distantly related) line.


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## chinbunny (Mar 1, 2010)

rudolph.est said:


> I agree about the bad genes showing themselves being a good thing...
> 
> As a side note, genetically speaking, breeding mother/son and father/daughter is no better or worse from an inbreeding perspective than is mating 2 full siblings, the relatedness coefficient for such pairs are all the same...
> 
> This is a good thing to know, read up about coefficients of relationship and inbreeding, and then you'll be better able to judge whether a specific mating would be good or bad. With relatedness higher than about 0.75, you might start seeing weaker or feebler babies, due to excessive inbreeding. But lines with high internal coefficients of inbreeding will produce hybrid vigor when crossed to an unrelated (or distantly related) line.


Im not bold enough to try brother and sister matings. I won't even do that with rabbits. Though half brother to half sister is safe, as long as the animal is bred to something else that is semi related.


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## old*cowboy (Nov 27, 2011)

Some years back I thought I would experment with the close inbreeding issue. I started with the best two lahores I had. I then let them raise 3 clutches of babies. When they got mature I selected the best young hen and bred her back to her sire. 3 more clutches and this time I retained the best cock and bred back to the mother (F1) So now I have son x grandson x half brother bred back to daughter x 1/2 sister. Next generation retained hen and bred back to her dad (It gets real lenghty here if I put all the relationships) Anyhow I did this for 7 generations. This was a long drawn out process and took some years and lots of paper ;0) to keep records. At the end of 7 generations I could not tell any ill effects from my experment. I chose birds to breed by size, color, type exc. By the end I had improved that family alittle. My conclusion was on inbreeding if you cull hard and select right it is not a bad road to take. An extension of this story would be that when I got out of Lahores I gave lots of this family to a good friend. When I got back in recently after a few years, my friend returned the favor. He has crossed other peoples birds into the origanal line, but after a few years and outcrossing, you can still see lots of the old line in these birds.


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