# pigeon with bad swollen puffed up eye



## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

i rescued a young pigeon 4 days ago.i can tell that its a baby because of the wispy down on its head,it is rather grown up with adult feathers all over its body except on its head and it cannot fly yet. Eye problem-------- yesterday i noticed that one of its eye had gone bad,it looked healthy before. the bad eye is closed and has been swelling from yesterday, so that it is now protruding .the eyelids are now slightly reddish and there is a line of harden yellow stuff(pus?) between them. the pigeon does not seem to be able to open that eye.however, its other eye is fuctioning normally. what can i do? wash its eye with salt water?will it heal on its own? another thing is that its poop has been alternating between watery brown and watery green although i have not been changing its diet of cooked rice and oats. i just place the food in a container for it--is this the correct way?will i need to control the amount of food i give so that it does not over-eat? will you please give me some advice? thank you!


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*eye meds*

Terramyacin for eyes in a small tube.  Order from jedds, foys, gobal. Or see if a vet could get you a tube. Or do you know anyone who had an eye infection. They might have left over meds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi zhunen,


Untill you can get some actual 'Eye' antibiotic ointment ( any Pharmacy, comes in a tiny tube )...you can use regular 'Neosporin' ( available at any Grocery or Drug Store) on the afflicted Eye.

To do so, use a nice fresh 'Q-Tip'...make a little sticking out squig of the Neosporin, take the Q-Tip and get the little squig on the side of it, and g-e-n-t-l-y "roll" the little squig onto his Eyelid...just sort of roll the end of the Q-Tip where it has the squig on it so nothing drags...

...do not rub, do not drag it across, do not go back and forth, but just gently roll the little squig on...it will spread itself further after, from his body-heat.

Throw away the Q-Tip...and, do the same thing again 12 hours later.

Start this soon as you can tonight, or first thing tomorrow...do not wait...



Your Bird will just about starve to death if being fed cooked rice and cooked oats...so, these really will not do very well...they have too little real food value compared to good, whole, Seeds, of the kinds Pigeons eat.


Does the Bird peck? 

Or are you having to feed it in some way?

If it pecks, please just get it some Birdseed, the kind they sell in the large bags for 'Wild Birds' will be fine...or, Canary Seed or Finch Seed is fine too...most Grocery Stores will sell these, or Feed Stores will, or 'Petsmart' of course...

No cooked foods, no dairy, no meat products...

"Seeds"...


Or, if it is too young to peck and self feed, then let us know...can give info for that...for what to feed him, and how to feed him, if he is very young and not pecking yet.

See info via this link to tell roughly how old your youngster may be...and let us know...

http://www.speedpigeon.com/baby_racing_pigeon.htm



Too, it might be important to him, for you to keep them "warm" in some way...

Young Birds, semi-starved young Birds, ill or injured young Birds, may not make, or be making enough of their own heat, so...

If you have an electric heating pad, set it to medium, lay a small towell on it, and set the Bird up so he can be on it or off it as he likes...if in the bottom of a box, or in a box in it's side with a cloth over the open part, make sure the Box bottom is large enough for him to be off the heating pad if he wants to...let him be the judge that way.

Till next...!

Have you any way to post some images?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have to disagree with the neosporin on the eye. It is not intended for the use in the eyes, so please don't use it.

Until you get an antibiotic specifically for eyes use, you can wash the eye with saline or some weak chamomille tea.
Also colloidal silver from the health food store has worked from me, it is a natural antibiotic.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You have already gotten good information on care and feeding of this youngster.

For the head trauma/and eye problem....

I would put a drop of Sovereign Silver, (colloidal silver) in each eye, and that will help with any infection.

If there is head trauma, you can give Arnica Montana (homeopathic) for any kind of head trauma or swelling.

Both these products are available at health food stores everywhere.


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

hi phil thanks for your advice. my bird is excalty the same as the one in 'day 22', colours and all.it can eat on its own.and from my description of its poop earlier on, you can tell its starving?ive had it for almost one week and its seems to be doin well, except for its eye of course.i provide him with a little fenced-up area with a house(a covered box with newspaper shreds inside) which it can go inside for warmth. i do not have eny heating equipment as its a tropical country over here. reti--- so i can wash its eye with salt water? how do i do it? by holding it still and dabbing its eye with a cotten wool soaked in the said solution?=/ im a little apprehensive cos its bound to struggle.and i would like to know how its left eye got into this state in the first place.it wasnt like this till yesterday.did it scratched itself in the eye such that it beame infected or an insect stung it? thanks everyone of you who gave me advice.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Glad the baby is eating on it's own, that is a great relief.
No, don't use salt water, the saline you can find in any drug stores, it is a sterile solution. Another option is the contact lens solution, but I prefer saline or chamomille tea, make sure the water is boiled and clear of any chemicals.
Chamomille tea is the best.
My own experience with the colloidal silver is great as I used it on one of my hen's eye who had recurrent eye infections with enterococci and staphilococcus. It cleared the infection within days.
If you have an eye dropper you can use it to wash the eye.

Hard to say if your bird has just an inflammation of the eye, a conjunctivitis or a more complicated infection. The reasons for this is foreign body in the eye, trauma by scratching or something systemic, like a respitarory infection.
Watch your bird carefully and let us know how s/he progresses.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have to weigh in on this one--you need to determine if the orb of the eye itself is swelling from the inside. I have a bird that that happened to and there was an infection on the inside of the eyeball. If that is the case, topical antibiotics will not, repeat--will not, take care of it. That would require systemic antibiotics and preferably one that would be matched to the infection.

One of the ways that you can tell if that's happening is that the entire side of the head completely surrounding the eye and eyelids will be swelling, not just the eyelids themselves. If (again, if this *is* the case) the systemic antibiotics cannot quickly resolve the swelling, then enucleation (removal of the eyeball) is the only possibility for saving the bird with continuation of the systemic antibiotic to prevent further intrusion of the pathogen into the optic nerve and brain. 

Believe me, I know:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10825

Pidgey


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

thanks pidgey, my pigeon's left eye is tightly closed and protruding from the side of its head.i cannot tell if its the eyeball swelling or the eyelids or most probably, both. the side of its heand is normal, no swelling.it is only the eye.also, between its closed eyelids,there is a line of hardened yellow stuff.hope this information will help u to tell what is actually wrong with it. also, i just noticed that its other eye is a little strange. it seems to have grown bigger( no protrusion)and there is a small milky 'float' on its eye. but once it blinks, the 'small 'float' is gone. my pidgeon is now resting in a sitting down position. thanks agian for your help. i seriously have no idea what to do as this is my first time taking care of a pigeon.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Zhunen,

Thanks for helping this young pigeon out. I am wondering whereabouts you are located? 

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

I am from Singapore.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you definitely need to get something topical on both eyes. As to what "this" is, it's hard to tell exactly which bacteria it is without doing lab. What was mentioned above about a topical antibiotic like NeoSporin is an interesting discussion that has appeared here before but it's been awhile. 

One vet told Phil once that the true eye ointments are a more highly purified version of NeoSporin and that NeoSporin could be used in the eye in a pinch (like you live in the middle of nowhere and don't have a chance to get to town for a few days). Or, let's say that it's a Saturday (which it just so happens to be) and you can't get a vet appointment until next Tuesday. If that means that not using NeoSporin means that the bird is going to go permanently blind due to waiting--then you obviously use the NeoSporin in a last-ditch effort to save the eyes.

You can occasionally get specific eye antibiotic ointments from pet supply stores--you just have to call around. Terramycin is one; Neo-Poly-Bac is another and has exactly the same basic active ingredients as the standard triple antibiotic ointments (polymyxin B sulfate; bacitracin zinc; and neomycin sulfate). 

One of the possibilities is a Staphylococcus aureus infection. Reti mentioned the colloidal silver above and this is one case where even that can be beneficial as long as it's the right kind--Sovereign Silver. It's just plain biocidal and silver (ionic) has some serious activity against a lot of things. I think the antibiotic ointment has more staying power in the fight but you use what you can get a hold of.

The cloudiness is probably the body's inflammatory response and you do not want that going very far or you're going to have a blind bird in no time.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do this--separate the eyelids on the left side and look into that eyeball. If it's white or cloudy (anything other than a normal clear, black pupil) then post it el pronto.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi zhunen,

I don't know what you have on hand, or what stores have to offer in your area,
this would make a big difference in what you select. The pet stores here carry antibiotic eye ointment for birds, again, hard to know geographical differences.

Take a look at this link and see if there is an avian vet close to you in the listings for Singapore:

http://www.aav.org/activemembers.html#s

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

zhunen said:


> hi phil thanks for your advice. my bird is excalty the same as the one in 'day 22', colours and all.it can eat on its own.
> *and from my description of its poop earlier on, you can tell its starving*?
> ive had it for almost one week and its seems to be doin well, except for its eye of course.i provide him with a little fenced-up area with a house(a covered box with newspaper shreds inside) which it can go inside for warmth. i do not have eny heating equipment as its a tropical country over here. reti--- so i can wash its eye with salt water? how do i do it? by holding it still and dabbing its eye with a cotten wool soaked in the said solution?=/ im a little apprehensive cos its bound to struggle.and i would like to know how its left eye got into this state in the first place.it wasnt like this till yesterday.did it scratched itself in the eye such that it beame infected or an insect stung it? thanks everyone of you who gave me advice.


Hello Zhunen & Welcome,
Thank you for caring for this sweet pij. 

Here are a couple ways of detecting a starving pigeon. 1) Their keel (breast bone) will be very sharp. Absence of muscle around the keel bone indicates they haven't eaten in a while and 2) They tend to fall face forward.

While the rice & oats might have been given in a pinch, wild bird seed will be better for him. If you are able to purchase some type of pigeon/dove mix, that would be ideal.  

Please keep us posed on how things are going.

Cindy


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

Im worried ill hurt it by forcing the eye open.but if thats the only way then ill have no chioce but to do it.ill do it tomorrow as its about 11pm now, i won't be able to do anything even if discover anything..=/


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I didn't see the location post. It's going to be a little more difficult for us to advise you seeing as how we're not very familiar with your available resources.

Oh, well, I'm looking in the ophthalmology chapter of an avian veterinary book and I see that a lot of the problems can stem from a sinus infection. This can even occur from one presentation of Trichomoniasis, a flagellating protozoal infection. That would require a completely different medication like Metronidazole given orally.

Pidgey


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

i live in city, not in the middle of nowhere=) so i guess ill go around with a list of the medicine u all so kindly advised me on n try to get them. may i know what are the prices like?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi zhunen,

Is there a listing on the link I posted for you that is close by? Many avian vets will treat ferals at no cost to the person who brings the bird to them for treatment. If you call, you can ask what there policy is on this in advance.

Do you have pet stores or aquarium/fish supply stores in your area? This would be helpful for us to know as well. Many times there are medications available at both types of stores that can be used to treat sick birds with. Metronidazole,
for instance, can be purchased @ an aquarium supply store.

If you are concerned about the bird struggling while trying to treat the eyes or in general examining the bird, you may wrap a hand towel around the bird to keep the wings stable--loose enuf for the bird to have unrestricted breathing,
yet snuggly enuf to keep the wings at its side. It would also be good to look inside the birds mouth to see if it is pink in coloration. Are there any yellowy to white buttons or spots inside?

Remember to wash your hands before and after handling the bird.

Please keep us posted.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

zhunen said:


> i live in city, not in the middle of nowhere=) so i guess ill go around with a list of the medicine u all so kindly advised me on n try to get them. may i know what are the prices like?



I have no idea what the price differential will be for you, or if you'll have greater or lesser availability of certain meds due to regulations/laws where you live.

What I'd do is call around first to see what is available and prices. Pet stores here will sell medications in the bird section that are systemic antibiotics in pill/capsule form, especially the cycline family. If I were trying to put a few things together here from the types of stores we are discussing, it might run 
me $20.00 or so, give or take.

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

yes, i have fish supply shops near me home. Metronidazole-- this should be found in fish supply shops? so i can use that to treat my bird's eye?


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

*I'm from Singapore too!*

Hi Zhunen,

You can approach Dr Hsu from Animal Clinic, Telok Kurau Branch (tel : 6440 4767) or Clementi Branch-only Tuesday (tel : 6774 4464) for the little one's problems. Other than him, it will be Dr Frederick Chua from Allpets, Jalan Kayu (Tel : 6481 3700). Both are our 'avian' vets here.

If you need Collodial Silver CS, I can give some to you. Just bot a bottle for my hamster. You can pm me.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

zhunen said:


> yes, i have fish supply shops near me home. Metronidazole-- this should be found in fish supply shops? so i can use that to treat my bird's eye?



No, that would be used for Trichomoniasis, known as Canker. That would be in caset you see the types of growths that I described, or as a precautionary in the event that canker is in fact involved w/the sinuses causing the eye problems. Even tho not transmittable, it's still best to go thru the hand washing routine.

If you are able to purchase medications over the counter at the bird section of a pet store, or at an aquarium supply shop, try for;

1. Terramycin Oinment (Ophthalmic Ointment)
2. Tetracycline (the bird section @ pet stores sometimes carry this over the counter, it might be called Bird Clycline or some other brand name, so you'll have to look at the ingredients.
3. Metronidazole, sometimes called Fishzole at aquarium stores. But again, you'll have to check the ingredients.

Then let us know and we can work out dosages w/you especially for the Metronidazole. 

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SueC said:


> Hi Zhunen,
> 
> You can approach Dr Hsu from Animal Clinic, Telok Kurau Branch (tel : 6440 4767) or Clementi Branch-only Tuesday (tel : 6774 4464) for the little one's problems. Other than him, it will be Dr Frederick Chua from Allpets, Jalan Kayu (Tel : 6481 3700). Both are our 'avian' vets here.
> 
> ...


Hi Suzanna,

Thanks for jumping in and helping out  !

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

i did not mention that that my pigeon was rescued from a cat. the cat had my pigeon in its mouth. i shooed the cat and it dropped the bird. there was no blood and 'lil P" did not seem to have sunstained any injuries though i admit that i did not do a thorough check.i read somewhere that cat saliva can be harmful to birds so im wondering if the cat attack has got anything to do with lil p's eye prob now.( eye only puffed-up 2-3 days after incident)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was hoping you'd show up, Suzanna. 

Zhunen,

The Metronidazole is taken internally--by mouth. The standard dosage is 10 to 30 milligrams per kilogram of bird, twice daily for several days (5 - 10). How much you're going to give will depend on what form you find it in.

Now, you have to understand that we don't know if that's the culprit and, therefore, the correct antibiotic. That's why it's best to get to a vet. You can certainly give Metronidazole internally while you're giving the ointments on the outside (and colloidal silver). I don't know specifically about Singapore but in that corner of the world, antibiotics are often sold over-the-counter with no need for a prescription. It's a lot different over here.

Pidgey


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

*Forgot to mention ...*

You can also try Goodwill Birdshop at Serangoon North. I recalled they have some medications for birds on sale there. Hope they still have.  

Suzanna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cat saliva may have Pasteurella multocida with is susceptible to the penicillin family of antibiotics. The best one to get would be Amoxicillin (the newer form of Ampicillin) or a combination drug of Amoxicillin+Clavulanic Acid (often called Clavamox or Augmentin).

We're getting into a lot of possibilities now.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is there any possibility that you can see the vets that Suzanna (SueC) told you about tomorrow? If it's Pasteurella, you may not have much time. That one can go systemic in a bird and kill them within a few days.

Pidgey


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I was hoping you'd show up, Suzanna.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey,

I enjoy this site alot, except I'm not posting too much! You guys seem to know everything about pijies!  

Zhunen,

Best bet is to contact Dr Chua from Allpets to get the medications mentioned above. Dr Hsu only works on certain days in the week. Don't think they sell the meds over the counter here. If the bird was caught by a cat, time is the essence in order to save it. You may even wish to try other not-so-bird savy vets and help the bird by providing the vet the information you received from this thread.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is there any possiblility of getting something for the bird tonight? Even if the Colloidal Silver down the throat and in the eyes? Suzanne do you have any antibiotics on hand?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think Suzanna and Zhunen ought to get into a PM conversation, exchange phone numbers if possible, and figure out what options they've got based on their locality. They may only be three houses from each other and they may be 10 miles of the toughest-city-to-get-through imaginable. Only they will know.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Think the preferred cat bite treatment would be the Clavamox/Augmentin.


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Is there any possiblility of getting something for the bird tonight? Even if the Colloidal Silver down the throat and in the eyes? Suzanne do you have any antibiotics on hand?
> 
> fp


I have bayril oral and Collodial Silver with me now. 

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

You can't use the colloidal silver, at least a question in my mind, w/Baytril. I'd get the bird on Baytril tonight if possible.
What strength do you have?
fp


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> You can't use the colloidal silver, at least a question in my mind, w/Colloidal silver. I'd get the bird on Baytril tonight if possible.
> What strength do you have?
> fp


Not sure of the strength. It's meant for my hamster who is weighing 170grams. She's supposed to be given 0.03ml twice a day.

Have PM Zhunen on the matter and hope I can help.

Suzanna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

From the Big Book:

"Acute forms are characterized by cyanosis, dyspnea
and diarrhea followed by death. Excess mucus may
be present around the nostrils or beak. Birds that
survive acute disease often develop respiratory rales,
sinusitis, conjunctivitis or swelling of the sinus infraorbitalis.
Arthritis and CNS signs have been reported
in some chronic cases. Granulomatous dermatitis
has been noted in raptors, owls and pigeons"

Sounds like it could be our problem based on the incident with the cat--need something fast and I'd do the Baytril in a heartbeat.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Dosage for Hamsters:

2.5 mg/kg PO q12h; for
Pasteurella pneumotropica
clearance: 25.5 mg/kg/day x
14 days SC ÷ q12h, or 85
mg/kg/day in drinking
water 14 days; for Proteus
clearance: 85 mg/kg/day x
14 days SC ÷ q12h or in
drinking water

Pidgey?


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Sounds like it could be our problem based on the incident with the cat--need something fast and I'd do the Baytril in a heartbeat.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey,

How much bayril to give to the bird, considering that I don't know the strength of what I'm having now but do know that a hamster weighing 170gms gets 0.03ml per dose twice a day?

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Could be wrong, but if I take the dose for pigeons and for hamsters, it looks like, within a range, it would be up to 5x's the amount prescribed for the hamster, assuming the rate the doctor dosed at.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Is this liquid Baytril? Or are you crushing pills and mixing w/water to syringe?


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

maybe its not that serious after all ? lil p was 'bitten' by a cat but there was no blood/cuts..and lil p seemed normal after that.only developed the bad eye 2-3 days after the attack.all this talk is really making me worried


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Is this liquid Baytril? Or are you crushing pills and mixing w/water to syringe?


Yup, oral baytril.

Have exchanged some PMs with Zhunen and left no. for faster contact.

See how it goes.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There can always be a very tiny puncture wound that was unnoticed. The illness is too synchronistic w/the cat attack, and too much time has elapsed not to act immediately especially if it can be arranged. Time right now is of the essence.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My guess would be that you have the 2.27% stuff which is 1/4th as strong as mine (10%) so you'd give 0.2 milliliters per dose, twice a day.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

They recommend "front ending" the dosage at least for the first treatment....
that would be double the dose up front what you'd give normally.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

zhunen said:


> maybe its not that serious after all ? lil p was 'bitten' by a cat but there was no blood/cuts..and lil p seemed normal after that.only developed the bad eye 2-3 days after the attack.all this talk is really making me worried


Unfortunately, that's exactly how an infection by Pasteurella works--very little by way of symptoms for a couple days and then it starts getting bad fast.

Pidgey


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> My guess would be that you have the 2.27% stuff which is 1/4th as strong as mine (10%) so you'd give 0.2 milliliters per dose, twice a day.
> 
> Pidgey


And that will be for at least 7 days?

Zhunen,

If you need this, I can give 1 ml to you today so that the bird can get some treatment. In the meantime, I will go back to my vet to get some more to last for another couple of days. I have a record with them so I guess they will sell the meds over the counter to me.

I think I have a eye wash somewhere too. It's also for my hammy but I'm not sure if it's expired.

Text me. It's faster as I'm logging off now.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Suzanna and zhunen, how close are you to one another?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Really need to find out from that vet what the concentration is!

The weight of the pigeon would be nice, too. I was guessing 300 grams but he's likely lighter than that in which case the dosage would go down.

Pidgey


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Suzanna and zhunen, how close are you to one another?
> 
> fp


Not very far. Singapore is a small country. Should meet each other within an hour.

However, I just took some meds myself and I'm falling over my laptop while typing all this. So I guess I can't bring the stuff over at this hour.

Zhunen,

Text me if you need. We can arrange something in the morning.

Suzanna


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Really need to find out from that vet what the concentration is!
> 
> The weight of the pigeon would be nice, too. I was guessing 300 grams but he's likely lighter than that in which case the dosage would go down.
> 
> Pidgey


I'll contact the clinic tomorrow on the concentration. Then I will base on the rate you've indicated in an earlier post and we do a pro-rate from there.

But best option is to bring the pigie to the vet asap.

Nite!
Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hope you can do it as early as possible. Thanks for helping, Suzanna.....zhunen, please take up Suzanna on her generous offer. Either a bite or an unnoticable cat claw puncture can have nasty effects....just ask a cat owner who likes to play w/them and gets those occasional and unintentional claw punctures. My doctor has a cat who has unintentionally clawed him on several occasions and he's had to get on Augmentin for it. Seriously nothing to minimize. Hope the bird gets on the meds and turns around health wise.

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

i checked on the pigeon this morning.other then its eye, its doing good:eating ,drinking,standing.its left eye has swelled up more and is now protruding more from its face.that means it has survived 3 days with the swollen eye, with no other conditions( eg runny nose..wheezing).however,it makes no noise n has watery poop.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi zhunen,

Will you be hooking up with Suzanna?

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

shall see how things proceed first. my mum n sis is now goin to a pet shop. they will describe the pigeon's condition n see how they can help us.will update you'll. thanks for concern


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

zhunen said:


> shall see how things proceed first. my mum n sis is now goin to a pet shop. they will describe the pigeon's condition n see how they can help us.will update you'll. thanks for concern


Hi there,

Please reread this post from Pidgey:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=120778&postcount=37

Then reconsider Suzanna's offer, you will get no better meds at the pet store, in fact I doubt anything would compare.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for being constant responder here, FP. Thanks to you too Pidgey, and most of all to SueC.

Zhunen, you really do need to find out what is wrong with this bird and get the right drugs. The offer of Baytril is a good one, and I hope you will take advantage of it. As was mentioned, if this bird is cat caught, then Augmentin, also known as Clavamox or Synulox is a better choice, but for sure, Baytril is better than anything you can get in a pet store (at least in a pet store here in the U.S.)

Terry


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Could not contact the vet for the strength of liquid baytril as they are closed today. However I just found that I have some 50mg baytril in tablet form. No problem giving them to Zhunen.

Question : How much to give to the birdie per dose?

Zhunen,

Please send the pijie to the vet quickly or contact me for the meds. Most clinics are closed today. You can try Mt Pleasant Animal Clinic at Whitlney Road, Tel: 6250 8333. They will be more costly but you can try to ask for a discount.

Long time ago, I did not send those birds which I picked up to the vet because they seem well. But after a few days, they go downhill quickly and die. Have learnt my lesson well. Please do not repeat my mistake.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SueC said:


> Could not contact the vet for the strength of liquid baytril as they are closed today. However I just found that I have some 50mg baytril in tablet form. No problem giving them to Zhunen.
> 
> Question : How much to give to the birdie per dose?
> 
> ...



Hi Suzanna,

If you figured a range on the Baytril of 10-20mgs per kilogram, and fell into a dose range of 15mgs per kilogram, say approximately 7-8 mgs per pound. This would be twice daily for 7-21 days. The dose can be front ended, or double for the first 48 hours, for sure the first dose.

Now you'll have to figure the weight and figure out how to split the pills. Think somewhere between 300-350 grams would be safe on the pijies weight.

fp


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Suzanna,
> 
> If you figured a range on the Baytril of 10-20mgs per kilogram, and fell into a dose range of 15mgs per kilogram, say approximately 7-8 grams per pound. This would be twice daily for 7-21 days. The dose can be front ended, or double for the first 48 hours, for sure the first dose.
> 
> ...


Thanks fp.

Zhunen advised that they have got some eye drops for the pijie. Her parents are not keen to send the bird to the vet. 

I'm still waiting for her to revert on the collection of baytril. Hope to get a response soon.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SueC said:


> Thanks fp.
> 
> Zhunen advised that they have got some eye drops for the pijie. Her parents are not keen to send the bird to the vet.
> 
> ...


Hi Suzanna,

It was late, couldn't sleep. I changed that to 7mgs plus per pound. I'm sorry that zhunen is not responding to the information that she recieved and the generous offer that you've made. I wonder what she would want to do if it were her eye or eyes that were in the same condition. Think she'd probably want the systemic antibiotic as opposed to just topical.

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Suzanna,
> 
> It was late, couldn't sleep. I changed that to 7mgs plus per pound. I'm sorry that zhunen is not responding to the information that she recieved and the generous offer that you've made. I wonder what she would want to do if it were her eye or eyes that were in the same condition. Think she'd probably want the systemic antibiotic as opposed to just topical.
> 
> fp


hi feralpigeon please dont misunderstand, im doin what i can for the bird however i have my limits too as my parents are not very keen .have responded to suzanna,waiting for her reply to see what we can do. pigeon-- its doin well today, alert ,eating n drinking..doin what a healthy bird should? no wheezing or runny nose.no change in eye condition.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that doesn't sound like a systemic infection at this point--maybe we'll luck out there and it's only affecting the conjunctiva. Of course, the final result of that may be simple blindness and if that's in only one eye, it will mean that the bird won't be releasable for the rest of its life. One-eyed birds do not survive in the wild and they sometimes have a tough time in an aviary. Have you parted the eyelids to see what the actual eyeball looks like, yet?

Pidgey


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, that doesn't sound like a systemic infection at this point--maybe we'll luck out there and it's only affecting the conjunctiva. Of course, the final result of that may be simple blindness and if that's in only one eye, it will mean that the bird won't be releasable for the rest of its life. One-eyed birds do not survive in the wild and they sometimes have a tough time in an aviary. Have you parted the eyelids to see what the actual eyeball looks like, yet?
> 
> Pidgey


Is there anything we can do if the bird could not be brought to the clinic? 

I will be passing over some baytril and CS to Zhunen tomorrow, although I'm all for getting it be seen by a vet. I've offered assistance in terms of vet fees, etc. but as Zhunen is schooling, she can't bring the pijie with her all day. 

Hopefully Zhunen can upload some pics of the bird soon.

Can we offer red grit to a 22-day old bird? I've packed some for Zhunen too.

BTW, the strength of the liquid baytril is 50mg per 1 milliliters. Currently I can only spare 1ml of this and 3 tablets (50mg each). I guess Zhunen will have to calculate how much to give to the bird base on its weight.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

zhunen said:


> hi feralpigeon please dont misunderstand, im doin what i can for the bird however i have my limits too as my parents are not very keen .have responded to suzanna,waiting for her reply to see what we can do. pigeon-- its doin well today, alert ,eating n drinking..doin what a healthy bird should? no wheezing or runny nose.no change in eye condition.


I'm sorry, zhunen, I was just getting frustrated w/the situation and the consequences for the pigeon. Living at home w/parents that aren't interested 
in helping will of course have limitations on what you can do. I do hope that if you can get meds from Suzanna, you will. Thank-you for your efforts.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The old number has always been 15 mg/kg, B.I.D. That's 15 milligrams per kilogram, twice daily. You don't want the bird to get grit during the course of antibiotics because Baytril binds to minerals, rendering them less effective. Your solution is 50 milligrams of pure medicine per 1000 milligrams of solution so it's a 5% solution. That means it's half as strong as what I use. Assuming that the bird weighs 300 grams, the dose becomes 0.09 cc's (milliliters; one cc is one milliliter by volume) or 9/100ths of a cc (twice a day). It depends on what kind of a syringe you have as to how that is best measured out. One milliliter will provide 11 doses total or 5.5 days of medication for a 300 gram bird. I'm not certain, but that's going to be about 3 to 4 drops per dose.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SueC said:


> Is there anything we can do if the bird could not be brought to the clinic?
> 
> I will be passing over some baytril and CS to Zhunen tomorrow, although I'm all for getting it be seen by a vet. I've offered assistance in terms of vet fees, etc. but as Zhunen is schooling, she can't bring the pijie with her all day.
> 
> ...



Hi Suzanna,

Hold the grit while on Baytril.

Check out this link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=90404&postcount=2

I'd probably quarter the pills as it would be easiest and give those first @ one quarter per day.
Keep the liquid refridgerated if possible.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Think the 10% dose is around 3 drops per dose-see Yong's break down.

fp


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Suzanna,
> 
> I'd probably quarter the pills as it would be easiest and give those first @ one quarter per day.
> Keep the liquid refridgerated if possible.
> ...


Ok. A quarter per day, so pijie will have 12 days meds in tablet form. Will that be enough? If not I have to arrange to buy some more from the vet.

I don't know how else we can help with the eye.

Suzanna


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Suzanna, 

I would recommend polysporin antibacterial eye drops, but I don't know if you can get them at a pharmacy where you live. They sell them here in Canada over the counter but I just don't know what you have available to you. You could try to go into a pharmacy and ask them if they have any human antibacterial eye drops available, even if they are a different kind. 

If you can get something then 1 drop in each eye/day should be enough and if you don't see any improvement in a few days, then discontinue.


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## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

This may not help the situation but I thought I would share what I was told by a few vets for an eye problem. This was a hampster that had a reaction to wood shavings, either a scratch or a sliver got infected in his eye and it was sealed with puss and swollen. 

The hampsters owners couldnt take it to the vet so I called around to vets and got multiple opinions on what to do for him. I verified the info given with many sources and they all said it was the best if a vet visit was not available. 

They recomended to rince the eye with sugar water instead of salt water because the salt will sting but the sugar will bring the infection to the surface just like salt would. (using bottled water) After the rince they said to use either neosporine or polysporine which I said I had from a previous pet. They told me to rince the eye 4-5 times a day and put in the neosporine after and to do this for about a week after it looks like it was better to be sure all the infection was gone. 

The hampster got better and never had a recourance of the infection. 

The vet is always best but in a pinch neosporine and salt/sugar water works too as long as the infection has not spread. I was a little aprehensive about the sugar but it really did work.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sugar makes a pretty good topical antibiotic--it's lethal. Gotta' admit that I'd never have thought to use it in the eyes, though.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

SueC said:


> Ok. A quarter per day, so pijie will have 12 days meds in tablet form. Will that be enough? If not I have to arrange to buy some more from the vet.
> 
> I don't know how else we can help with the eye.
> 
> Suzanna


I believe that you can give in a one time dose per day, or the twice a day dose which would be to half the quarter. But I believe from threads here that this was discussed. Hopefully a big gun will correct me if I'm wrong on this. If you use the strategy of front end dosing for the first 48 hours, calculate this into your pill quantity, that you could round the duration of treatment off with the liquid form. I am not sure on how long, but I believe you could hobble together 3 weeks of treatment between the liquid and pills. Is this correct, and have zhunen and you been able to connect w/med transfer?

fp


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

I will be meeting zhunen after work this evening to pass her the meds.

She has taken some photos but is having problems transferring them to her PC. Hence she could not upload the pics to this site at the moment. Hopefully she can ratify the problem quickly and all of us can have a better idea of the bird's condition.

I'm not sure what type of eye drop she had for the bird. I'll hope to get her to look at this thread and response.

Suzanna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Personally, I don't like leaving things to speculation so I just took a 0.3 cc (ml) syringe and counted the drops (of Baytril) at the full 3/10ths stroke: 12 

This means that each drop is equivalent to 25 milligrams or 0.025 milliliters (ml; cc)...

0.3 (3/10ths milliliter syringe) / 12 drops = 0.025 milliliters or 25 milligrams (a milligram is 1/1000 of a gram (milliliter).

...but that's not the same as 25 milligrams of pure medicine--you have to correct for the concentration which is 5%. 

25 (milligrams of solution) x 0.05 (same as 5/100 for 5%) = 1.25 milligrams of pure medicine per drop at 5%.

Therefore, 25 x 0.05 = 1.25 milligrams of pure medicine per single 25 milligram (volumetric) drop. Figuring 15 milligrams per kilogram that's 4.5 milligrams pure medicine for a 300 gram bird.

300 (grams of bird)/1000 (grams to the kilogram) x 15 (milligrams per kilogram) = 4.5 (milligrams of pure medicine)

*Conclusion: * For a 5% solution, at three drops, you're at 3.75 milligrams of pure medicine; at four drops, you're at 5 milligrams of pure medicine. That's one dose (for a 300 gram bird)--give twice a day.

Pidgey


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> Well, that doesn't sound like a systemic infection at this point--maybe we'll luck out there and it's only affecting the conjunctiva. Of course, the final result of that may be simple blindness and if that's in only one eye, it will mean that the bird won't be releasable for the rest of its life. One-eyed birds do not survive in the wild and they sometimes have a tough time in an aviary. Have you parted the eyelids to see what the actual eyeball looks like, yet?
> 
> Pidgey


the eyelids have already parted by themselves, between the parted eyelids is a yellow colour area which i think is a membrane of dried-up pus.i have already gotten the medicines from suzanna (thanks a lot,on behalf of pigeon=)). bird is fine,no difference from past few days and i have already used collodial silver on it.as for baytril,i read through the previous messages and arrive at no clear conclusion.for now, i am using a quarter of the 50mg pill on the bird once a day,as suzanna taught me.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That'll be fine as long as the pills last which should be long enough to see whether they're going to help. When you finally get to the end of them, you can use 4 drops down the bird's mouth two times per day, or 7 drops down the mouth one time per day.

Your description of his one eye sound similar to Izze's. I went back to that thread to look at those pictures and they wouldn't come up for me. It's possible that the might for you but it's also possible that they might never come up now so I'll email Monica and see if we can post them again:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10728

I think Izze's eyes eventually cleared up and looked somewhat normal, but she lost all vision. Hers was probably from trauma. Swelling in the eye creates a glaucoma-like condition where the inside pressure gets too high and causes the blood flow to the retina to decrease, often to the death of the tissue.

We'll see.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

zhunen said:


> the eyelids have already parted by themselves, between the parted eyelids is a yellow colour area which i think is a membrane of dried-up pus.i have already gotten the medicines from suzanna (thanks a lot,on behalf of pigeon=)). bird is fine,no difference from past few days and i have already used collodial silver on it.as for baytril,i read through the previous messages and arrive at no clear conclusion.for now, i am using a quarter of the 50mg pill on the bird once a day,as suzanna taught me.



Hi zhunen and Pidgey, here was the link I was referring to regarding Yong:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13094&highlight=Baytril+drops

It was referencing the 10% solution of Baytril, and the specific single post would be:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=98597&postcount=13

Again, the 3 drops would be for the 10% solution w/a variance of weight between 270g and 400g for the pigeon given twice daily.

fp


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## zhunen (Apr 1, 2006)

*pigeon's eye is well*

i have happy news =) . my pigeon's eye has recovered! its eye was actually covered by a very thick 'mould' and it dropped off today. its eyeball underneath the mould is perfectly fine-black n bright n alert. thanks to you all who have given me really useful advice.special thanks to ms suzanna ,thank you for giving me collodial silver,baytril,garlic,probiotics n the minerals.=) didnt think anyone will go to such trouble for a stray bird,much less a stranger's stray bird. you really have a big heart, thanks! on a side note ,i realised that there are some tiny,thin stick-like insects which i presume to be ticks on the pigeon's body.also, frequently, when the pigeon lie down,one of its wing will slant down to the ground. is this cause for concern?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Zuhen, 

I'm glad to hear that the pigeons' eyes have cleared up, I'm not sure about this "mould" or what that was but if the eyes are normal now, that's still good.

Those bugs you're seeing are likely lice, see if you can get something from Suz for those, they're pretty easy to take care of and not a big concern.

The wing issue when lying down, sounds normal to me. When pigeons lie down, they kind of lounge with one wing off to the side or more relaxed


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is wonderful news.
Thank you for caring for this bird and many thanks to Susanna for going out of her way to help you and your pigeon out.
Great work both of you.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The stuff that you're talking about that finally came off is probably the residue of the inflammation--it's kinda' like pus in us, only thick enough to form something that's a cross between a scab and scrambled eggs. The reason why it formed a layer like a thick skin is because it was trapped between the eye and the eyelid. The drugs resolved the infection and that's what was left over. 

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

zhunen said:


> i have happy news =) . my pigeon's eye has recovered! its eye was actually covered by a very thick 'mould' and it dropped off today. its eyeball underneath the mould is perfectly fine-black n bright n alert. thanks to you all who have given me really useful advice.special thanks to ms suzanna ,thank you for giving me collodial silver,baytril,garlic,probiotics n the minerals.,i realised that there are some tiny,thin stick-like insects which i presume to be ticks on the pigeon's body.also, frequently, when the pigeon lie down,one of its wing will slant down to the ground. is this cause for concern?



Thank you for helping this bird and using the products we suggested.

Those are lice, the thin long things on the bird..

Even though the eye make look good, please make sure you check the eye to see if there is any sight in it. You can test the sight by standing on that side and try to touch him, see if he notices you at all. I have a few one sighted birds, they act like normal, but I can easily pick them up on their blind side, as they don't know I'm there. These birds both had trauma to the head, and lost sight in the eye where the trauma was. 


Please let us know if the bird has vision in that eye.


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

That is very good news! 

I have some Biomectin which the vet gave to Beanie, my pigeon. It's supposed to get rid of lice, etc, etc. You need to drop in the mouth or on the skin behind the neck every 2 weeks for 3 times.

No problem giving some to your pigie .. oops pijie. .. I guess it's time for me to go to bed. 

Let me know.

BTW, what's the name of pijie?

Cheers,
Suzanna


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