# Breeding Question!



## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I was just by my pair I have together and saw something very unsual to me. Let me start off by saying when I say male and female that is what I was told they are. I am not positive of there sex.
I was letting my others fly when I noticed the male was feeding the female. He then walked in circles dragging his tail and she layed down, he got on her back and tryed to mate.(I am not sure if he did) Then he got off kept dragging his tail and she got up and started dragging her tail. This time he layed down and she got on his back and tryed to mate!! 
Is it possible I have to males? I have submited pictures on here before and was told the same thing as there previous owner(Ones a male and ones a female). 

Any Ideas?!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> I was just by my pair I have together and saw something very unsual to me. Let me start off by saying when I say male and female that is what I was told they are. I am not positive of there sex.
> I was letting my others fly when I noticed the male was feeding the female. He then walked in circles dragging his tail and she layed down, he got on her back and tryed to mate.(I am not sure if he did) Then he got off kept dragging his tail and she got up and started dragging her tail. This time he layed down and she got on his back and tryed to mate!!
> Is it possible I have to males? I have submited pictures on here before and was told the same thing as there previous owner(Ones a male and ones a female).
> 
> Any Ideas?!



You'll have to remind us (or at least me.... ) how old these birds are? I've seen youngsters do this and they were actually a male and a female and I've seen my older birds do it occasionally. A lot of hens drag their tails after mating. But......the only way to know for sure??......is wait for the eggs to appear. That will tell the tale for sure.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Ok, Thank you! The hen is an 03 and the cock is a 00.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I have a couple of Satinette's who are mated for a few years, and they reverse mating roles, too. (They are definitely male and female and have had babies.)


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

sometimes birds are confused. best to see if eggs are laid. if there is no eggs best would be to get a proven male and see if it pairs up. if so u have 2 females.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I've seen the mating role reversal thing, too, where the hen mounts the cock briefly after they mate. The circling and tail-dragging by both after mating is normal. Since your pigeons are mature, I'm sure the person you bought them from is correct as to their sex.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

This happens Soon you should know 2 eggs 1 hen 4 eggs 2 hens. but you probably have a pair no problems


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi re lee,

i have to dis agree with you. it doesnt work that way all the time. i had to crested owl females who i thought were a pair. they laid 2 eggs at a time (every 28 days (18 days incubation & removal + 10 days to re lay)). 1 hen stayed at the night and the other during the day time. when i moved them to the main loft they both paired off with 2 other cocks. what i do now is that if i am confused i break the pair and try pairing off 1 to a definite cock i have.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I know you can't be positive of a sex from a photo, but here is a photo of the believed to be male. Does it look like a male to any of you?


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

My 2 cents here...judging from the lack of coloration around the neck, I would say it is a female.All of my males irredescents are bright.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I don't know if this means anything at all but its tail is always wet. I know they have oil glands but none of others tails are ever wet.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

The "mating" took place on Saturday and today there is an egg. Only one though and the "male" is sitting on it. What are the chances its fertile?


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

One egg today, tomorrow the other should be laid. If it was mine, I would leave it alone as to not stress the parents.After a few days if you don't want to be surpised for the hatching, you can candle the eggs. A flashlight held up to the back will allow you to see inside. Someone told me you can see the veins, a sure sign of life.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> The "mating" took place on Saturday and today there is an egg. Only one though and the "male" is sitting on it. What are the chances its fertile?


If you found the egg today, then it was actually laid yesterday, (Monday) so Victor is right, there should be another one tomorrow. The "mating" as you say might have been Saturday, but I assure you, they've mated since then. The male must fertilize the egg within 24 hours of it actually being laid. You just missed the other "sessions"........ As far as the chances of it being fertile, that's anyone's guess. All you can do is wait a few days and candle the eggs OR wait a whole lot of days and see if they hatch.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Oh I was thinking 3 days was to soon for an egg. I am glad to hear they have to mate within 24 hours of the eggs being layed.
So do they mate twice to lay two eggs since there about 44 hours apart?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> Oh I was thinking 3 days was to soon for an egg. I am glad to hear they have to mate within 24 hours of the eggs being layed.
> So do they mate twice to lay two eggs since there about 44 hours apart?


yes they do.......and they mate MANY times between the FIRST time and the egg being laid.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I learned something new today! 
Around 3:30 the male was sitting on it and at about 4:30 he got off and neither one has been on it since. Is it becuase, there is only one egg?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> I learned something new today!
> Around 3:30 the male was sitting on it and at about 4:30 he got off and neither one has been on it since. Is it becuase, there is only one egg?


That is not unusual. Until the second egg is laid, they won't sit 24/7 on the egg (most of the time). Once they have the second egg, then you should rarely see the nest empty, unless they have to leave to food, water or a "poopy"........


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

lol, ok thank you!


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2007)

and what a big poopy that will be you just wait  oh and I forgot smelly too  lol


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> lol, ok thank you!


Actually, if you can, you could put a dish of food right beside the nest bowl. That way they can sit right there and eat. They only have to leave the nest to get a quick drink and poop. Of course if you're weather is warm, or semi-warm, it's not a big deal I don't guess. It's just something I've always done. 
Of course, sometimes they will just poop in the dish and not even leave the nest to do that.  They think "gee, what a swell guy.....a dish of food AND a toilet right by my nest."


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I guess we can expect to see 2 more new babies in 18 days time. keep us posted.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

There is a second egg today! I will keep you guys posted on them!


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Today is the 3rd day since the 2nd egg was laid. I candled them both today and only one seems to be alive. Is this possibly because they started sitting on the 1st one first? Or is it that just one is fertile?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonsrock said:


> Today is the 3rd day since the 2nd egg was laid. I candled them both today and only one seems to be alive. *Is this possibly because they started sitting on the 1st one first? Or is it that just one is fertile?*




Yes, wither is a possibility. You should check the eggs again around 5 days of incubation.

Usually the experienced hen will not start to do any serious incubation until the second egg is layed, but you can also remove the first egg, and put it back in the nest when the second egg is layed.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Well it was actually the cock doing the incubation. But I will reincubate in 2 more days.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

better leave the 2 eggs alone for the hen to hatch unless ayou are pretty sure on candling eggs. let nature decide if what is to happen


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I candled them both again today(5th day today) The one that had viens before is making a lot of progress. But the other one now has a red looking ball about the size of a pea in it. To me it looks like it just started getting incubated. What does this mean? If they are to both hatch the 2nd egg will hatch a few days maybe longer after, by the looks of it right now.




warriec: I knowI shouldn't bother them, but I really want to know if my first eggs are gonna both hatch!


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

you definitely know for sure 1 will hatch, let nature take it own course. If you are not experienced in checking eggs dont risk wrong decisions


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Well, you'll have to keep an eye on the chicks when they hatch, but probably they'll both be ok. I've had them hatch as far as two days apart and both did well. The younger chick was smaller but eventually caught up. Just make sure once they hatch that the younger baby does have a full crop.

A word of caution, though. Stop handling the eggs! They become more fragile as incubation progresses and you could easily crack one. Leave them be and let the parents take care of them. Too much disturbing of the nest is not good.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Bird mom is right on the point that both young should hatch together for an even growth. almost all the time my young hatch 2 days apart maybe because my pairs dont have much experience and the end result is that 1 baby will die from been very small in size compared to its other sibling. I had the same experience today with the Lahores


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

warriec said:


> Bird mom is right on the point that both young should hatch together for an even growth. almost all the time my young hatch 2 days apart maybe because my pairs dont have much experience and the end result is that 1 baby will die from been very small in size compared to its other sibling. I had the same experience today with the Lahores


You might have something else going on with your pigeons, Warriec. It could just be inexperience or there might be illness involved. I've also observed (at least with my pigeons) that fancy breeds seem to have more problems with their youngsters than, say, rollers or homers.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

My birds are all fancy breed. yes i've had some other problems but these seem to be rectifying themself


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I hope they hatch close to each other. But by candling the eggs yesterday it sure didnt look like it. But I'm just going to let nature handle itself and not touch them anymore.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

good choice. please do keep us posted


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I should have at least one baby hatch tomorrow through Sunday. Tomorrow(Wednesday) will be the 14th day and Sunday will be the 18th day after the second egg was laid. I can't wait for my first baby pigeon(s)!


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Today when I got home I found the shell of the infertile egg broken out of the nest. Has anyone else's ever just had one fertile egg? I'm wondering wont the parents feed just one, to much or is this not a problem?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> Today when I got home I found the shell of the infertile egg broken out of the nest. Has anyone else's ever just had one fertile egg? I'm wondering wont the parents feed just one, to much or is this not a problem?


Yes, that happens sometimes. No big deal. The parents will feed it just fine. You will see though, that a single hatched baby will grow a little faster, simply because he's getting all the attention. If you band your birds, you might want to keep an eye on it as it grows. Sometimes I have to band a single baby earlier than I would if there were two.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Today is the 18th day since the 2nd egg was laid. To me it doesn't look good, but I'm not an expert so I don't know. 
I candled the egg today and I can see the air pocket in one of the points of the egg. But I can also see two viens still in the egg. To me it looks like it either died or has more incubation to go. How many days of incubation is the most that anyone elses have ever had and still hatch?(I hope the last question doesn't confuse anyone!)


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Yes, its common to have 1 fertile egg although i dont know why, its mother nature. I need to candle my german beauty eggs on tuesday. hoping that they will be fertile.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonsrock said:


> Today is the 18th day since the 2nd egg was laid. To me it doesn't look good, but I'm not an expert so I don't know.
> I candled the egg today and I can see the air pocket in one of the points of the egg. But I can also see two viens still in the egg. To me it looks like it either died or has more incubation to go. How many days of incubation is the most that anyone elses have ever had and still hatch?(I hope the last question doesn't confuse anyone!)


Give the egg a few more days just to be sure.


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## Chocolateedd (Mar 27, 2006)

*babies*

Make sure not to mess with the eggs too much. Mom or dad can get upset and crack them, i would give it time, because i have made the mistake of thinking it was too late, breaking one of two eggs, and realizing that i made a huge mistake. I would give it a day, because that is what i did with my second, and it hatched right on my birthday. So i would give it a couple days, usually takes 17 days once its laid, but just give it two days or so, if late, candle it, and any longer than that, i would consider tossing it. It is truley amazing how babies get so big so fast. - Ed


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Ed has a point, wait till the parent give up and leave the nest before you break the eggs, if you are still eager try listening to the egg around the 18th day. You can hear the baby pecking on the eggs shell trying to break.

if you break the egg or help the baby out it has a slim chance of survival.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Today is the 20th day since the 2nd egg was laid. Should I continue to not touch it? Couldn't it be dying cause it can't get out?


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Egg is most prabably dead and you should remove before it burst. eggs hatch between the 17th day and the 19th day.

you can break the egg and see what happened to the egg but please note that it may not be a pretty sight


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I agree it is more than likely not going to be pretty. What would make it die, if it did?


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

If the young is formed inside it could be that it wasnt able to break out of the shell in time thus died inside - i dont know why this happens but its happens

otherwise the egg was not fertile.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

It was for sure fertile cause I saw the baby in it on the 17th day and I saw veins around the 5th day.
So should I go ahead and break it open to see if its alive or wait longer? I would hate to open it and kill it. But on the other hand I would love to save its life if it can't get out and is still alive. Any ideas?


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

place the egg close to your ear and try hear it pecking the shell. if its a live it will do this. normal from the 17th day this noise can be heard, its very faint


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Warriec is correct. If the baby is still alive, you can hear it tick, tick, tick,. I will tell you that's it's a 50/50 deal. Last year I found a baby that had pecked a hole in the egg but couldn't get out. I left it alone for about 24 hours and it couldn't get out. I tried to help and killed it by doing so. On the other hand, a member here, Roxtar, had the same thing happen just about a month ago.....his wife got the baby out and it grew up to be a pretty little bird. Maybe I killed the bird cause I didn't know what I was doing in the first place and should have left well enough alone. 
So......I can't tell you what to do. Listen to the egg and if you hear any ticking/pecking noises, then you will have to decide. 
Every case is different. Wish I could tell you more..........sorry........


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Do you have any idea how long apart I should hear peckings? I am not sure if it was my brain wanting me to hear them or if I did. But what I heard that I believe/hope was peckings were about 2 minutes apart each.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> Do you have any idea how long apart I should hear peckings? I am not sure if it was my brain wanting me to hear them or if I did. But what I heard that I believe/hope was peckings were about 2 minutes apart each.


IF you actually heard pecking, then the baby is alive but loosing strength it sounds like. If he was making a real effort to get out, it would be tick, tick,tick.......sort of like morse code. 
Let me say this.......and again, I'm not telling you what to do.
If this baby is still alive, I don't think it's going to have to strength to get out of the egg its self. It's been trying to long.
IF you helped it out, it would be so weak, that I'm not sure that it would survive long enough to move around and get the parents to feed it. The parents won't "force" their babies to eat. The babies have to "ask" to be fed, when they have hatched and dried off. 
I don't think at this point that the baby would survive unless you could raise it, and that would be a VERY difficult thing to do.
Again, not saying do or don't help. It's up to you.........


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Hey, you will have to make a call on what to do. raising young a day old is very difficult and helping chick out does not mean survival.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't have a lot of experience with late babies, but I have had a couple and they both died. Both times they didn't hatch until day 20 or 21, and I'm sure of the dates because I write all the hens' lay dates on a calendar. If they hatch late there's usually something wrong with them.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I decided to take the risk and open the egg today. There was a smelly/rotted well grown baby in it. I am not sure why it would die. Any ideas why?


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

pigeonsrock, my babies too die like this although i dont know why. everything goes well except for the last stage.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

warriec said:


> pigeonsrock, my babies too die like this although i dont know why. everything goes well except for the last stage.


My first thought is Paratyphoid. It will kill the babies in the shell.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Since the two homers that just mated are my only two I can fly, can I take their eggs from them(give them fake eggs) and put the eggs under my other pair whose babies didn't hatch? I know I have to have them timed right.
Can I continue to fly the pair even though they will be sitting on fake eggs? Won't one always want to stay in and sit on the eggs?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonsrock said:


> Since the two homers that just mated are my only two I can fly, can I take their eggs from them(give them fake eggs) and put the eggs under my other pair whose babies didn't hatch? I know I have to have them timed right.
> Can I continue to fly the pair even though they will be sitting on fake eggs? Won't one always want to stay in and sit on the eggs?


*You can expect a least one of them to stay inside and brood the eggs, even though we know they are "dummies' they are real to the parents, and should be treated as such. 

You must make sure to give the eggs to another couple who also had eggs of the same age, or replaced with dummy eggs. If they are not sitting on eggs/dummies they will not be able to feed the baby's pigeon milk.*


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

So does that mean once a pigeon is old enough to breed they can't be flown? They are going to be sitting on eggs even if you don't want them to. So how do I go about this?


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Anybody know?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> So does that mean once a pigeon is old enough to breed they can't be flown?


No, not at all. If you have breeders that are also flyers, then, in MY opinion, when they are actually breeding, they shouldn't be flown. If they are sitting on dummy eggs, then no problem. You don't want to take a chance on loosing one to a hawk while they are sitting on eggs or feeding babies. Then it's the babies and the parent that might be left behind that have to struggle. 
So.........birds on fertile eggs and/or babies should not be flown.
birds on dummy eggs can be flown just fine.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

So just open the cage and force them to get off the dummy eggs? Won't they fly very shortly to come back and sit on them?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> So just open the cage and force them to get off the dummy eggs? Won't they fly very shortly to come back and sit on them?


I may have missed something but I REALLY don't want to go back and read 5 pages of posts........ sorry.
Why do you need for these birds or this one bird to fly so badly? You can MAKE them fly and it really depends on the bird as to how long it will fly.
I've got a hen that won't fly AT ALL when she's on eggs. She will almost fight you and dare you to try to make her fly. She wants to be on her eggs. But I've got others that don't WANT to leave the nest, but once out of the loft, they will go fly for a few minutes anyway. BUT.......I'm talking about race birds here that need to fly whether they want to or not. So I DO have to TRY and force mine to fly. I've found it's much easier to just take them down the road........that way they HAVE to fly to get back home. 
So...........what's the reason that these birds must fly?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonsrock,

I don't think any bird sitting on a dummy egg, regardless of it being real or dummy, should be forced to fly. 

Just because you know it's a dummy egg, doesn't mean she thinks it is. It is serious business to her, when hens are sitting and they are all in the same mind frame. 

Now, if SHE actually wants to go out and fly (and sits on dummy eggs), when you open the bob trap, that is another thing, but don't force her. 

Hens on real eggs, should be in a nursery/breeding environment with no bobs to the outside world available.


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

I understand all of this but this pair is my only two flyers. It just so happens that one is a cock and one is a hen and they paired up. I want to continue flying them still.
So in other words like I said earlier once they become old enough to breed and lay eggs you cant fly them really.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonsrock said:


> I understand all of this but this pair is my only two flyers. It just so happens that one is a cock and one is a hen and they paired up. I want to continue flying them still.
> So in other words like I said earlier once they become old enough to breed and lay eggs you cant fly them really.


Pigeonsrock..........don't get mad at what I'm about to say..........stop worrying about what YOU want, and think about your birds. If you want birds to fly, raise you a few babies and train them. Let these two birds fly when they are NOT on eggs. I agree with Treesa that hens on eggs or cocks for that matter should not be forced to fly. What I said I do, is done because in the long run, it's what is best for the bird. When I force a hen to fly that is on eggs, she's mated to another hen. I can't control that and in order for her to compete or just make it home from a race, she has to stay in shape. The only way to do that is to make her fly.
My race team raises a set of babies every year. They are mated together so that they have time to lay eggs, raise babies and ALL babies are weaned and in the YB loft before one single race bird is put out to fly. NO bird of mine is EVER flown if they are on REAL eggs or babies. 
If you are going to have any kind of animal, you've got to learn and realize that they have "feelings" and eggs and/or babies is about as serious as their life gets. 
If you've only go two birds that can fly and you are going to leave them together, they are going to lay eggs.........that's what they do so you've got to give them their time and space.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2007)

all I can say is this ... when they are done raising their rounds they can get back to flying later or at least in between egg settings be it real or fake eggs ,unless you are racing these birds I cant see why you feel the need to make them fly if they dont wish to  they will fly when they wish to do so ...sure would be a shame for you to lose them to hawks thou in the meantime


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

Im sorry for not really explaining better. I enjoy watching my pigeons fly. I currently have lost a few to hawks and only have 2 left to fly. I did not want them to mate but they did and I said that was fine I'll put their eggs under another pair.
I guess the only way to fly birds 1 year or older is to have males and females seperated? Is that the only way? No one I know does that but they continue to fly them. What could they possibly do to keep them from breeding and laying eggs? Thanks everyone!


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## pigeonsrock (Dec 10, 2006)

How long should it take to receive an egg after the pair breeds for the first time?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonsrock said:


> How long should it take to receive an egg after the pair breeds for the first time?


5 to 10 days after breeding, and they will breed several times during the process.


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