# Need Reasurance Please



## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

Hi  

I have some questions regarding a fledgling feral I've recently acquired...

Here's the short of it: Somehow at my mother's work, they found a baby pigeon on the roof. Please don't ask me how it got on the roof, or even how THEY got on the roof to find it (it's a dental office!), because I don't know. Anyway, one of the doctors took to the bird to a wildlife rehab (I assume it was the SF wildlife refuge), but was told they don't take pigeons there and if the doctor didn't want to take care of it, they would feed it to their hawks  

Needless to say, the doctor didn't like the sounds of that so the office together decided they would try to rehabilitate this bird. The rehab center gave them instructions on tube-feeding, which the bird didn't like, and after 2 days they gave up and my mother dropped the birdie in my lap, pretty much literally... figuring I'd do okay with him since I actually raise PARROTS (which are a bit different from pigeons, I'd say).

So, that's how the parrot lady ended up on a pigeon website 

Anyway, I've had him for a week... even nicknamed him Pudge, which is a pun on pigeon and a reference to the fact that the thing is an absolute pig. My other choice was Sasquatch, but that's so looooooooong....

Anyway, I'm a bit concerned about his progression, mostly because what I'm actually familiar with is, again, PARROTS. So, here's what I was told: my mother said when they found him, he was all down... which I have a hard time accepting becuase she also said they'd only had him for 2 days when she brought him to me, and when I got him his baby feathers were there, only a few pieces of down poking through... but, for all I know, pigeons feather out instantly compared to parrots, so maybe she's right. She also said the bird could not stand up when they found him (he was doing so by the time I got him, a bit wobbly but he made it), which, according to what I've read up on, means he was no older than 19 days when I got him.

His health is good (though he's not getting anywhere near my parrots, sorry), his eyes are bright, he's very alert, and his feathers are getting gorgeously glossy... he took his first attempt at real flight yesterday, he flew from the table to the back of the chair about 2 feet away... his perching skills aren't great, but he's working on it... and I can personally attest to the fact that he's getting a full belly on a regular basis, and his feathers on what would be his cere if he was a parrot are beginning to sprout.

Other than that, he wears a contant expression like the seagulls in Finding Nemo.

My concern is, when I first spread seed about 5 days ago in the incubator-fish tank he's been staying in since his arrival, he stuffed himself, literally. I thought if I touched him he'd pop (he didn't, thankfully). Great, I thought, he's going to wean fast. Ha, fool on me... the bird hasn't eaten on his own since. This has me greatly concerned, it's been 5 DAYS, and he pecks at the seed but doesn't actually eat it (he's currently getting a wild dove mix til I can get down to a feed store and find some vitamin-enhanced pigeon & dove mix). I've tried everything, from decreasing the frequency of the feedings (from 3x a day to twice a day), to decreasing the amount of food I hand-feed, to letting him starve for several hours (the longest I held out was 6 hours)... nothing. No matter how hungry he is, he simply will not eat on his own. 

My concern in compounded by his actions... while he's still very affectionate with me, he doesn't ACT like he wants to be fed any more (those who are used to hand-feeding will know what I mean when I say, they start thinking they're big birds and they don't want the baby food anymore). He doesn't struggle or fight me while I feed him (I syringe-feed), but he no longer actively seeks out the syringe, and I have to hold his head still otherwise he turns away like he doesn't want it. 

Is this normal for pigeons? Parrots, when they begin to eat seed, don't just stop once they start... they keep going, I've had babies wean themselves in 1 day (most take a week, but every once in a while I get one who decides seed is the gourmet diet and baby-food is for babies). If this pigeon doesn't want to be fed, WHY isn't he feeding himself???

His crop is definitely emptying (I felt terribly guilty after the 6 hour holdout), his droppings are good, and he acts fine (very curious and gets into everything, does his wing strengthening, and as I mentioned, has taken a few test flights)... but he nibbles at my fingers and adopts a begging posture, even after he's been syringe fed... I've tried feeding him seed by hand, tapping on the tank bottom where the seed is at, he doesn't seem to either get it or get what he wants from me.

Are pigeons really that much different from parrots? Is it normal for him to revert back away from seed after gorging on it one day? And why is he so disinterested in baby food (which he was gobbling up a few days ago)?

Sorry this was long, I also have some questions about getting him back into the wild, but that can wait til he's keeping himself full. Thanks for any input!

--Pudge's adopted featherless mother


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## Snow White (Jul 27, 2005)

*Reassurance is Here*

Hi Parrot Lady! Welcome. We have great moderators on this site and I'm sure they'll contact you soon. Sounds like you have your hands full. Also sounds like Pudge (love the name) is bonding with you. Doesn't sound like he's starving either. I only have one pij and she's fussy about what she eats. She's also spoiled rotten. Sometimes I think it's a matter of what their taste is and finding what they like. He sounds like he's in good hands. Hang in there and let us know how he's doing!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nothing of what you said worries me. I've seen it as well. My wife brought one home from work once that was small and emaciated, but nothing wrong otherwise. It could eat seeds on its own, no problem. This was fully two or three weeks before it would normally have done that. We decided that it needed the "extra boost" of Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula because of the supplemental minerals, vitamins, enzymes, etc. We couldn't get it to eat on its own again for three weeks. Of course, it didn't WANT or LIKE to eat by way of tube feeding so it was a miserable battle.

Phil, on here, has some suggestions as to coaxing a young bird to eat that you can try. Either he'll show up later and post them himself or I'll go fetch a link to that. Six hours won't begin to break a stubborn young pigeon's will though. They will often continue to hound their parents to feed them for two or three weeks after weaning. Maybe they just like the attention but you have to know that there's a great variance of personalities and some are just this way.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi! I'm also trying to wean a baby - started today. What I do is not feed them their breakfast or lunch, put small seeds in a bowl and also scatter some on the floor of the cage, add a water bowl and just watch him closely during the day. I often go to him and peck with him and encourage him with different sounds to eat and he will peck at the seeds. I've noticed he sits in his seed bowl most of the time and will peck at seeds. Most of them use their seed bowls for beds so you need to check for poop contamination pretty often. This evening I will feed him Exact and continue this way for a week or so. I also monitor their droppings and weight faithfully. You can expect them to lose a little weight while making the switch to seed but just make sure it isn't too much weight loss.

Some of them can be stubborn little devils, but, oh so charming.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Parrot_Lady said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> My concern in compounded by his actions... while he's still very affectionate with me, he doesn't ACT like he wants to be fed any more (those who are used to hand-feeding will know what I mean when I say, they start thinking they're big birds and they don't want the baby food anymore). He doesn't struggle or fight me while I feed him (I syringe-feed), but he no longer actively seeks out the syringe, and I have to hold his head still otherwise he turns away like he doesn't want it.
> ...


Hello and welcome to pigeons.com.

Thank you for helping this youngster.

The bird sounds like he is fine. You just need to continue the feedings until he matures a little more. He is developing a taste for seeds and doesn't want formula anymore, because that is what his parents would be feeding him now, ( regurgitating to him now)

Continue to encourage him and keep seeds and water available for him at all times.

Lady Tarheel has got the right idea, you can continue to feed him one meal at night, and feed him seed in the morning and afternoon. Once the pallet get's used to the seed and he strengthens the tongue muscles by pulling back the seed for swallowing he will start picking up seeds.

You should gently dunk his head in a tip proof bowl( just submerge to his beak, not including the nostrils) of water and see if he swallows, if he drinks that is an indication that he will be ready for weaning soon, within a few days or a week.

Treesa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Parrot Lady,


I do not know what you mean here by the 'Syringe Method', since some uses of the term mean that a cut-off syringe is used with an "X" cut in an elastic membrane covering the barrel end, for the Bird to put it's Beak into, and some uses of the term mean one is forcing food into their Beak, or into their throat or even into their crop via a longer end of some kind.

If not running and scampering and so on by a week and a half or so, then the health is not good. Their legs should be strong, and so should their feet.

Consider to go to 'Foys' or 'Siegals' on line, and get some Vitamine D and Calcium suppliments...also some 'Nekton-T' or similar good quality Bird Vitamine-Mineral powder.

You can also lightly coat your present Wild Bird Seeds in a gloss of fresh, new Bottle, of Olive Oil and then have powdered Vitamine-Mineral suppliments stick to the seeds.

Get him out of the Acquarium and let him roam freely.

Did he have a rough texture for his feet to grip on so far? Smoth bottom cages, newspapers and so on are very bad for their legs and feet.

If the Bird is making 30 - 50 poops a day, 'Raisen' sized, he is eating enough...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

Hi, all, and thank you so much for your input and the warm welcome... lol I know how defensive we bird people can be about our particular genus, and it's nice to know parrots and pigeons can co-mingle  



> sounds like Pudge (love the name) is bonding with you.


Yes, I think you're right, Snow White... I believe it happened almost instantly, the first time he pooped on me  

In truth, though, I'm very surprised by him... when he arrived here, this was one hostile & aggressive baby. He showed up in a 1 foot x 1 foot cardboard box with air holes punched through the sides, completely closed on top so he was virtually in the dark. It didn't help matters that my mother was shoving her face right into his and chasing him around with her finger, all the while cooing to him that he needed to calm down. I'm not normally rude with my mother, but I told her to leave him the h*** alone for a minute... you don't just rip open a box and surprise a wild animal with your finger in his face.

So when he stopped flipping out, I put my hand in and just let it sit there while he postured aggressively (don't tell him, it might hurt his feelings, but really I couldn't take his threats terribly seriously when he could hardly stand up  ) beat his wings at my hand and lunged with his beak. This lasted for about 5 minutes, and I never once moved my hand, which apparently surprised him because then he just sat there for another minute or two and stared, while he tried to figure out what exactly I was doing. Eventually he decided I wasn't going to chase him around with my finger because the next thing he did was start nibbling & searching in my hand. My mom's jaw absolutely dropped (maybe now she knows not to chase wild things? I doubt it). 

After that he was basically tame as could be, I lifted him out no problems, set him down on my leg (which is when he proceeded to poop on me), and showed him the syringe... my mother started going on and on about threading the tube down his throat, and I must have told her 15 times, "Let's just see what he does"... and to make a long story short, within an hour he was sitting very calmly on my leg, waiting for me to brace him with my hand, and opening his beak for me to put the syringe in... up til recently that was instant, the second I hand my hand on his back, his beak opened wide (now of course, he doesn't WANT baby food, so I have to coax the open beak myself).

So, really, I think he bonded so fast because he'd previously been so traumatized.

from Pidgey:


> We couldn't get it to eat on its own again for three weeks. Of course, it didn't WANT or LIKE to eat by way of tube feeding so it was a miserable battle...Six hours won't begin to break a stubborn young pigeon's will though.


Okay, now I feel much better then. Like I said, parrots really don't do that... once they start on seed, my job is basically supplemental feeding, to make sure they're getting enough, and they wean incredibly fast... I really didn't know what to think about this baby pigging out all by himself and then stopping all together... I forgot to mention that for a few days, I didn't need the syringe at all, he was spoon-feeding (eating the formula right out of the spoon til he was all full), and that has stopped too--now 100% syringe. 

As long as it's normal behavior, then no problem, I'll continue hand-feeding. I don't really believe in force-weaning, so pretty much I'll feed him as long as he needs me to... I have an Amazon, she's now 10 years old, and she still waddles up to the syringe when I'm feeding babies... she even drops into beg position! I always give some to her, she never wants very much, I think she just gets jealous that I'm paying attention to babies and not her, and wants to make sure I still love her too 

Lady Tarheel:


> I'm also trying to wean a baby - started today. What I do is not feed them their breakfast or lunch, put small seeds in a bowl and also scatter some on the floor of the cage, add a water bowl and just watch him closely during the day. I often go to him and peck with him and encourage him with different sounds to eat and he will peck at the seeds. I've noticed he sits in his seed bowl most of the time and will peck at seeds. Most of them use their seed bowls for beds so you need to check for poop contamination pretty often.


I tried that today, and I don't think he's old enough yet, he was pretty haggard by evening, and apparently hadn't eaten a thing all day. I am going to drop the afternoon feed, though, and just feed him morning and night for about a week, unless things change rapidly, like he starts eating (then drop to one feed a day), or he starts losing too much weight (then return to 3 feeds a day). I think I'm judging him okay, it's just hard to know for sure, because I'm really having a hard time adjusting from parrot to pigeon, lol maybe I'm just a worrier!

His bowls are too narrow to sit in, and too high for him to poop in unless he makes a point of doing so. I decided to change the bowls from the smaller size to the taller size because although he wasn't sleeping in his food dish, he WAS pooping in his water dish, every time I turned around I had to change the water. This way, he's going to have to have very good aim... LOL it's a new strategy I'm trying tonight, wish me luck  

from Treesa:


> You should gently dunk his head in a tip proof bowl( just submerge to his beak, not including the nostrils) of water and see if he swallows, if he drinks that is an indication that he will be ready for weaning soon, within a few days or a week.


Okay, that's good to know. I did try this evening and he kinda rolled his eyes and blinked at me like, "What are you doing NOW???" So, combined with the info about stopping seed, I'd say he's probably not as mature as he looks to me (and he does look mature to me, but I have to remember that only 10 days ago now, his tail feathers were just little stubs and he had yellow down wiggling out all over his body. Like I said, I'm having a hard time guestimating his maturity level... thank goodness he's being patient with me!


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

From Phil:


> If not running and scampering and so on by a week and a half or so, then the health is not good. Their legs should be strong, and so should their feet.


Nothing wrong with his legs... he jumps into and out of the aquarium (about a foot and a half high) without even bothering to use his wings, and he can run striaght up my shirt to sit on my shoulder (very bad habit he's trying to learn there, lol but he doesn't seem to get that the reason I keep taking him off is not so he can run right back up again, but because I REALLY don't want him up there!)... his balance is what's lacking (kinda funny in a sympathetic way). 

He's getting much better, though, he no longer falls off the aquarium edge, and he can now ride on two of my fingers very steadily, though his legs still shake nervously when I have him on a single finger... I've actually never seen a bird with a case of the nervous shakes before! But he's progressed nicely, I got him last Tuesday and he had to be entirely lifted bodily... since then he's moved from needing to be picked up to standing on my hand to grasping (perching) 3 fingers, now 2 fingers, and he CAN do 1 finger, he just isn't confident about it yet.

I'm not too worried about the wild bird seed as yet (though I did run to a different feed store & was able to pick up a bag of enriched dove & pigeon mix, which my normal store doesn't carry... that's how I settled at first on wild seed until I could find something better elsewhere)... the reason being the formula I make is very enriched, and since that's most of what he's eating atm, his nutrition should be good (and his appearance confirms that to me). But, I do have a good seed now, so I'll have something to give him when he's weaned.

The syringe feeding: Basically, exactly the way I feed my parrots, except it's a bit harder with a pigeon because of the different beak shape, doesn't naturally hook over the syringe. But, essentially what I'm doing is letting him feed himself, I'm just putting the food in his mouth, albeit in the back of his throat. He seems okay with it, all last week, up til 2 days ago, he opened up wide to receive that syringe... my mother said he fought them madly with the tube feeding (ie, threading the tube directly into his crop), so he's at least happier with this method, even if it's not designed for pigeon beaks  



> Get him out of the Acquarium and let him roam freely. Did he have a rough texture for his feet to grip on so far? Smoth bottom cages, newspapers and so on are very bad for their legs and feet.


He's confined for a variety of reasons: Sanitation of my house (sorry, I draw a line there), no possibility of cross-contamination to my parrots (I draw an even thicker line there), and lastly but most importanly, for his own safety: I have 2 cats, one of whom hunts & kills adult cottontails about once a week. If an adult rabbit cannot stand against this cat, there is no chance a wandering baby pigeon can. The good news is, the cat is actually terrified of birds in general (lol parrots taught him a lesson or two! He's gotten his paws bloodied by beaks nipping through bars, but he's also gotten into a hissing match with one bird, and the bird won!), but that's a not a risk I'm willing to take with a helpless pigeon.

However, I understand your concerns and I assure you the same holds true for baby parrots, and I've managed to accomodate them very well, and the pigeon seems very adapted to his "home". He's in a 20 gallon corner tank, actually a reptilian tank as it's quite low in height, which should give you an idea of how much space he actually has inside there. I've modified it with a bottom heating pad, so it works as an incubator, and it's large enough that one side is heated, the other side is not, so the bird can move around where the temperature is most comfortable. I actually designed this tank for use with my baby amazons, who are about the same size as this pigeon, and I usually have 3 in there at a time and it's quite spacey for them... Pudge has the whole thing to himself!

As for bedding, I always use walnut shell... natural & non toxic, safe to ingest, actually works like grit if they eat it... non allergenic, won't create dust to clog their nostrils... Plus, makes it easy to scoop out droppings during the day (he gets a full change every morning).

I'm trying what I usually do with my parrots as far as perching goes, that is, with a parrot ladder, hooks removed, laying flat on the bottom. Teaches them how to grip without any danger of them falling off, and won't roll. Unfortunately, this pigeon just walks over it and hasn't tried actually perching on it yet, lol so it may not be working as well for him.

And, he DOES get out, but only when I'm there to directly supervise. As I said, that's more for his safety than for any other reason... but usually I have him out at least 3 times a day when I'm not at home for the day at about an hour a shot, during which time he strengthens his wings and pretty much wanders into everything... he's gotten quite good at a strengthening exercise I use with my parrots, have him on my fingers, raise my hand up high, and bring my hand down at a fair speed, over and over, til they're tired... actually he loves it, though I can't go as fast with him as I do with the parrots (he's not as acrobatic as they are).

When I am home for the day, and able to directly supervise (ie, in the same room with him), I just opent he top of the cage, and he jumps out whenever he wants to, also jumps back in whenever he wants to (and he does). 

He seems pretty happy with the arrangement... I grant it's not ideal, but it's what I've got to offer, and, ideally, he wouldn't be with me at all, he'd be with his parents, but, that's not the situation. I agree, though, that he should be allowed as much freedom as he desires, which is why I intend to release him back into the wild when he's ready... I'm quite sad that I can't do it here at my house, but there's no nearby pigeon flocks around, and there's the cats to consider... but, until then, he's got to make do with what I can give him.

Thanks everyone for your advice and your reassurance, good to talk with folks who know this particular species, it's really set my mind at ease. I will keep yuo updated as he starts to truly wean.

Take care,

Pudge's featherless mom


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## Snow White (Jul 27, 2005)

*Pudge*

Don't be surprised if Pudge doesn't want to leave when it's time. I thought Edie would leave too when she was well, but that's not what happened. And she is an adult. She now lives (and happily, I might add) in her cage with all the comforts (actually she's spoiled rotten). I improvised a ledge for her to hang out on by using a hamster cage attachment which is like a "shelf" you can attach right to the sides, in the corner (found it at Petsmart). She also has two large, round, wood perches (needed cuz she's missing her middle toe) which she uses to get up to her new favortie spot. She comes out twice a day with me. We go up the my bathroom. She'll sit in the window sill while I get ready for work. I exercise her then and she'll fly around (if she's in the mood). When I'm done, she's ready to go back downstairs to her clean little home and have her breakfast. Then she may have a little bath and then a nap. What a life! When I get home from work, besides being greeted by my spoiled rotten dogs and cats, I hear Edie cooing away and carrying on cuz she knows its cuddle time. I take her out in a little towel and we walk around the kitchen while I get dinner ready. Now what bird in its right mind would want to go back out into the heat, humidity or the cold and wet, or the freezing snowy life it had outside. I'm thinking pigeons are pretty darn smart....


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Parrot Lady,

Hope the feeding situation continues to improve. Pudge clearly wants seeds but isn't quite ready to eat all by himself. Since he's eating out of a spoon, why not just feed some small seeds that way? That would approximate what his parents would be feeding at this stage. You can moisten them with a bit of baby food if you want. (If someone already mentioned this and I missed, I apologize.)

BTW, pigeons don't have strong feet for gripping so they prefer flat perches. He would probably enjoy standing on a brick if you put one into the aquarium. My birds seem comfortable standing on the palm of my hand. This bird really lucked out ending up with such a knowledgeable person!


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

I think Pudge is starting to eat again... for his night feeding tonight, his crop wasn't empty (and it should have been, after 12 hours). LOL keep your fingers crossed... my coffee pot has been trashed by flying bird formula... I've decided to switch to tea til Pudge is weaned... 

The tall dish experiment is working somewhat well... his aim is better than I'd hoped, but apparently his ambition is lacking... since I changed the dish 3 days ago, he's only pooped in it twice... and today he went all day with clean water! (PS, I noticed the water level dropping since yesterday, so he's drinking on his own too... I'm so proud of him!)

He's been promoted to a one finger percher... though I think it's most comfortable for him in the crook of my hand, he no longer trembles like a leaf sitting on one finger. He's also grown into his feet, which relieves me to no end... he did look a bit absurd...

And, I've finally managed to break him of that habit of running up my shirt to sit on my shoulder  Now he simply flies to my shoulder  

So, questions questions: Do pigeons like toys? Obviously they aren't designed to chew things down to toothpicks, but wondering if they enjoy things to keep their minds occupied while not figuring out clever little ways to get around mom's "down" hand as she's reloading the syringe.

It's also time to move him out of the incubater tank and into a cage with real perches. I do have several flat perches (parrots also need a variety to shapes to keep their feet healthy), and I have a wire corner-shelf I can also give him... but the only spare cage I have big enough to accomodate a bird this size is my old budgie flight cage, basically a rabbit cage 4 feet long x 3 feet wide x 3 feet tall... it's not chicken-wire but whatever that rectangluar wire is? (I assume, despite his ability to run up my shirt, pigeons are not particularly well-designed to climb, so a straight-bar cage would not work well for him). Do the dimensions seem fair for a juvenile pigeon? And the last question, it has a grate bottom which I cannot remove, made of the same rectangular sheet. Do pigeons need constant nesting-type material at the bottom of their cage, or is wire sufficient?

Thank you, Terri, for your encouragement  I'm very grateful I've been given the opportunity to help this little guy out. I recently had a eucalyptus tree collapse into my yard, and after the city got all the debris cleared away I found a downy house-sparrow wheezing on the ground. I tried everything I could, but he didn't last longer than two days, when he died, it looked like he'd hemorraged internally along his keel. So, it's a nice boost to see Pudge flourishing the way he is, and his personality makes it all worth it (even the lack of coffee!).

And, to Snow White: I've been having doubts about releasing him lately. This bird is ridiculously tame, and seriously attached... I'm not sure he still qualifies as a "wild" bird, and it might be crueler to him to let him go than to keep him safe. I just don't know what to do, but I comfort myself into believing the time to make that decision is still aways off... lol so prepare yourselves! When the time does come, be ready for me to bombard you all with questions!  

take care,

Anita


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Anita, 

Sounds like Pudge is doing very well in your care and he's progressing very nicely! Their personalities are very different from parrots but they really do have a special charm all their own. 

In answer to your questions...pigeons aren't really birds that will appreciate toys in the manor that hookbills do. Some of our members provide mirrors and bells, stuffed toys or even the ends of toilet paper rolls for their birds  

Here is a link to single pigeons and toys for them, but be warned...it's very long http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8793

Your flight pen is a good size for Pudge and the wire bottom is just fine for him without bedding material. A good idea would be to get a brick and place that at the bottom of the pen. They like flat surfaces to perch on and the brick will help keep his nails trimmed. You might also want to provide a flat board in there somehow up higher and he would likely appreciate this as well. 

Good luck and keep us updated


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## fantailgirl (Jul 19, 2005)

I keep my breeders in 24" x 18" x 18" rabbit cages with 1" x 2" sized welded galvinized wire for siding and 1/2" x 1" flooring. Pigeons generally don't seem to climb on the siding anyway, so it really doesn't matter, so long as they can't stick their heads through it. Pudge would probably be happy in that cage, it is a good sized one. My fantails get a 'platform', which is a 4" thick slab of wood, and that's what they love to sit on.

I understand your confusion with raising a pigeon out of the blue. I breed rabbits, so I compare everything that my pigeons do to my bunnies. I always think that my rabbits are the greatest things in the world, so when I got into pigeons, they were somewhat second class. Now they are getting run of the barn!


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

*Helllllllllllllp*

I don't know what to do here, please help me out... Pudge is simply NOT eating on his own, AT ALL. During this last week (5 days), I've dropped him down to 1 feed a day, in the hopes that forcing the issue would at least get him to TRY (as I said, I don't believe in force weaning, so you know I'm desperate) eating on his own. That hasn't worked... his crop's empty all day long, and he no longer qualifies as "pudge"  

So, what am I doing wrong? Here's his set up:

he has a bowl of seed in his cage all day long. Since he's moved into the cage from the aquarium, I can no longer spread seed on the floor for him to graze on (there's a grate). He knows where the food is, he pciks at it all day long, without eating anything... and he's throwing the seed all over the place, so I know for a fact he can find food if he wants it.

He also has fresh water all day long, which he drinks from quite readily, has been for over a week. The bird is DEFINITELY drinking on his own.

I spread seed on the counter when I take him out for feeding. He pecks at it, but drops it or throws it (usually the latter). I've tried the wild dove mix, the quality pigeon feed, sunflower hearts (even my parrots don't get sunflower! I'm just desperate for anything to work) Parrot pellets, today I even broke down and tried some whole grain bread. Always the same result: he'll pick it up, but not actually EAT anything.

I've been trying for the last week to hand-feed seed twice a day, it works as long as I can get him to sit still... he does eat what I directly put in his mouth. But, I'm sure you know, it would take _hours_ to fill the crop of a pigeon one seed at a time. I've been hoping this would teach him how to use his tongue to roll the seeds back (thanks for the info, treesa), and he doen't seem to have a problem swallowing what I put in his mouth, but he still doesn't eat on his own... I have to actually PUT it there.

I've tapped at the food, and sure, it gets his attention and he starts pecking, but same story... pick up the seed & throw it. Spoon-feeding doesn't work anymore, it seems Pudge has lost all interest in feeding himself, even when it comes to formula.

I've tried putting a bowl of formula mixed with seed into his cage, in the hopes he would get hungry enough and at least eat the formula and maybe get a seed or two while he was at it, but no such luck. Formula dried up and Pudge never touched it... though there was a footprint in it....

I feel horrible starving this bird all day long, it's gotten so bad that I no longer go into his room to visit him because his begging is breaking my heart...but he's getting thin enough that I'm going to have to switch back to 2 feeds a day very soon... and my willpower will break before that even, lol I will probably give him til tomorrow.

What am I doing wrong? This cannot be normal... no baby will willfully starve when there's food right in front of them, & birds don't go on hunger strikes as far as I'm aware. Do pigeons shell their seeds? Is that what I need to do? Any help will be greatly appreciated, I'm really worried about him, this has gone on for far too long to be normal.

Thanks, Anita


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Anita,

Some of them are just wickedly difficult to wean. There is a thread going on another pigeon list where a lovely lady and experienced pigeon raiser is going through absolute hell trying to wean the feral she has raised .. the bird is just simply not going for it. Nothing has worked for her either. I'm sure this little tidbit is bad news, but at least you are not alone. 

You are doing all the right things, so just persevere! If there is a way for you to expose your youngster to a pigeon or dove that is self feeding, that may be the ticket.

Terry

PS: No .. pigeons don't shell their seeds .. they eat them whole .. that is one reason why a good quality grit is helpful. The grit helps to grind the seeds and also provides needed minerals.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Anita, 

I'm sorry you're having these problems now with Pudge How old is he now exactly?

I have read about this many times now, about pigeons not willing or able to eat on their own...all hand reared birds of course. There may come a time when you will seriously have to try the tough love approach, I had to with my own birds...they didn't learn to eat properly until nearly 3 months old and that is way too long.

What you can try for now are really tiny seeds such as millet or canary seeds. My birds learned on these first at just over a month old (I think). 
They seem to be able to handle and really like the really small ones at first and this will give him experience of actually picking up and swallowing the seeds on his own. You can usually buy these separate from pets stores or even at some bulk food stores. 

I hope this suggestion will help Pudge in the short term and others will have some ideas as well. You'll have to feed him as well sometimes to keep his weight and strength up if he's going to be this stubborn.

Good luck and keep us posted,


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Anita,

Thank you for all the time you have spent with this little guy. This baby has been thru a lot and has seen alot of change in his short life, and may need the extra attention. I'm so sorry to hear the bird isn't wanting to eat on his own. If he is in tip top shape there may be no physical reason why he is doing this, just needs attention and extra reassurance.

Maybe there is a psychological side to this, also. Sounds strange? Not really, I've seen it with my pigeons, and in youngsters that have been uprooted

How long has he been out of the acquarium? Wasn't that where you kept him before when you first got him? Did your mom bring him to you in the acquarium? Sorry about all the questions. 

Maybe he associates security with the acquarium, that he was used to and being that he was uprooted twice. Remember, that he lost his mom, was with your mom, had to learn to eat from a syringe, was moved with you, all the trauma and emotion and change might be a little too much for him.

Would you mind terribly trying something? Put Pudge back in the acquarium for a day and see how he eats. He may have lost his sense of security. He has been thru alot emotionally and needs to re-group. I'm not saying you should leave him in there permanently, but just to see if there is an psychological element to this.

We had another member here who couldn't figure out why her rescued youngster was behaving differently after he went from a box to a nice cage. She said he was not eating well, and acting lethargic. I said put the box in the cage and see how he does. She said he was a totally different bird, after the box, which happily fit, was in the cage. It was like a security blanket after the many changes the youngster had been thru.

Thank you


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Parrot Lady,

Sorry you are having such trouble....I know how worrisome it must be for you.

I know another member, SueC, simply could not get her rescued pigeon to eat from a bowl. She did not have success until she sprinkled the seed on the floor of the cage. I know you mentioned that this cage has a grate, but perhaps you could put a small square of cardboard down over the grate and put a pile of seeds on it.

It's worth a shot.....hope your problems are resolved soon.

Lindda


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## Snow White (Jul 27, 2005)

*Poor Little Pudge*

Hi Anita,
I'm sorry to hear Pudge is being defiant, like alot of children. He just must want attention from "mom". Eventhough mine is an adult, she has her ways of getting my attention when she wants it, including climbing up the side of her cage. I do have a question that may sould stupid, but what do you have on the bottom of his cage to catch his poops? I have newspaper lining mine. Edie usually "throws" her food from her bowl to the bottom of the cage and then attacks it. Sometimes she just stand in the bowl. I guess it depends on her mood. My guess is Pudge will eat when he's hungry. I don't think birds starve themselves unless their sick etc. Life is sure one big learning process, even for our birds. Hang in there.

Sue


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

Whew. Sorry I haven't gotten back on this, the last 2 weeks have been very hectic (I'm a teacher... school started  ), but I did read everything y'all wrote even if I didn't have time to say anything back. So, let's see if I remember everything:

I got Pudge on August 3, and he was approximately 17-19 days old then (just starting to stand up). So, he's pushing the 50 day mark. He *might* be eating a bit on his own now, not enough to sustain himself but he no longer feels "bone dry" at feeding time. I took all of your suggestions and implemented them, so now he's receiving parakeet mix (staple=millet) on a plastic tray (instead of cardboard...didn't have any cardboard handy that I'd allow him to eat off of!). Whether he's eating or not, I have resumed the twice-a-day feed, lol the day after I last posted (told you my will-power wouldn't last ), so at least I'm calmer about it all. dunno about him, But *I* feel much better anyway.

As for examples to show him how to eat... there aren't any pigeons near where I live. Pudge's only choice in that matter would be the parrots, of which I see 2 problems: parrots do shell their seed, and #2 Pudge needs a vet clearance before he goes near them. He's been quarantined long enough to reassure me he doesn't have an active disease, but there's always the possibility of carriers (and I don't know what pigeons may carry that might be contagious to parrots)... so the vet visit has to come first.

Treesa, thank you for mentioning the psychological point... it never occured to me that his refusing to eat could be a behavior problem instead of a physical problem. Since then I've made a point of constant reassurance with him, even if he seems well-adjusted to whatever new situation I throw at him. It seems to be working well, he no longer gets the nervous shakes when he's introduced to something new, though if I put him down he'll have none of that and fly right back on me. So I've gotten in the habit of letting *him* decide when it's safe enough to check out on his own.

Here's the other updates: it would appear Pudge has definitely made the decision that he lives indoors. I bring him outside with me a lot, first because I was thinking I would be releasing him into the wild eventually and he should feel comfortable outdoors, but after he started flying it was more for him to get excersize. Anyway, when he gets tired he flies back into the house... this bird isn't going anywhere, no matter what my thoughts were on the matter! However, the decision was sealed after he picked up the habit of landing on the dog. My dog at least knows the pecking order in the house (he's the bottom rung, poor thing!) but if Pudge was released and one day decided to land on a strange dog, it might not turn out so well for him. At least he has proven wary of cats!

I took some pics of him drying off in the sun after his bath this afternoon, I hope this works....

Thank you again for all your help and advice, I should be around a bit more once things begin to settle at work.

Take care,

Anita


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

well, let me try that again...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Anita,

Thank you for the update and the picture, that is one fine looking bird!

Sounds like Pudge is adjusting, and it may take him some time to eat completely on his own, as he just may need that bonding that feeding provides. Just continue to leave him seed and water, and hopefully he will eat more and more on his own as time passes. If you can get him some "real" ,"genuine", pigeon seed that might encourage his desire to pick up seed. At 50 days of age he only needs to eat about a tablespoon of seed twice a day, but I would continue pampering him, and see if he will eat some seed out of your hand.

Sounds like he is very comfortable around you and the dog. He has no boubt bonded to the dog, or using the dog as a mere landing spot! What a wonderful dog to allow that.

I guess you will find out how much he weighs once he gets his physical and fecal, I'm curious about his weight. Please do update us again, and when he has had his check-up.

Thank you.


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

Hi all, remember me? There's so much to tell I hardly know where to start. The reason it took me so long to get back to the site was that Pudge did not get the the vet as planned-unfortunately, he got trumped by the rabbit-eating cat, the week of labor day, who it turned out had terminal cancer. I'm very sorry to say I put him down 2 weeks ago.

During that time I got very frustrated because, if you recall, Pudge wasn't weaning. So just for fun, I'll pass on my trick, as the cat needed a special diet & between him and Pudge I was going nuts with pet food. One day I just got so frustrated with Pudge I decided, okay, I can't starve you (really, I couldn't make myself do it), so I'l make sure you're getting enough food but there's no saying I have to make it so you like it  I stopped warming his food for him, gave it straight to him from the fridge. Bird weaned in 2 days  Hopefully, that will help someone in the future.

So. Pudge went to the vet Tuesday. He weighed in at 309 grams, vet declared it a healthy weight for his size, also commented on how physically well the bird appeared. Gram stain results are not back yet.

Wendesday, Pudge flew away, and hasn't come back  I'm gradually accepting the idea he isn't going to, and am completely heartbroken. I've spent the last 3 days scouring the neighborhood with binoculars trying to find him (he somehow broke off his 2 middle tail feathers over the last few months, so he isn't hard to spot from the ground-he's the bird with the gap in the middle of his tail), morning & afternoon. Have gone out twice at night calling for him, but no luck there either.

I'm worried... there are 2 hawks living in my immediate area... about an hour after pudge flew off, one of them glided so low over my house that I swear if I'd had a broom in my hand, I could have knocked him right out of the sky. Good news was, his claws were empty. There are NOT any pigeon flocks in my immediate area, though there are small flocks which would be relatively close as the pigeon flies. I can only hope he found a flock to take him in, as a lone pigeon has a very large target on his back. I'm most worried about, if he did find a flock, would they have accepted him so fast? I'm just crushed to think of all the dangers out there, hawks aside, does Pudge know to get out of the way of a car? I'm also not thrilled about the fact that he took off with winter setting in... to many things can happen to him, & since he found his way to me I've been paying closer attention to feral pigeons I see, and it's really heartbreaking the condition some of them are in.

So, now for my self pity: Here I am, 2 weeks from Christmas, out $900 between 2 of my closest companions, yet still somehow managed to lose both of them within 2 weeks of each other. At least the cat I know isn's suffering any more, but the bird I'm worried his suffering might just be beginning. Devastated is a good word for me, I think.

Will stop whining now, thank you all for your wonderful input during my panic attacks rearing the Mighty Pudge... you folks are blessings.

Take care,

Anita


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## Parrot_Lady (Aug 11, 2005)

Oh, and just a request: If there's any SF Bay Area members here, if you happen to spot a Juvie Pigeon with a hole in the middle of his tail, will you please let me know? I'd love to hear that he's all right. Take care, Anita


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Anita,

I'm so very sorry for the loss of your cat. And to have Pudge fly the coop at about the same time .. I am sure you are devastated.

Pigeons are pretty amazing beings, and there is a very good chance that Pudge has found himself some pigeon friends and has become a member of the flock. 

I know I always agonize over those that I release back to the wild and am always so thankful to see them doing well whenever I spot one of my babies. I do hope Pudge will give you a visit to let you know he is doing fine.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Anita,


My guess is that he flew around, maybe even in some direction he felt would be interesting somehow, and has met other Pigeons by now and has joined the sometimes casual organization of some flock.

One his age, can certinly join a flock almost instantly, and I have seen some of mine do it here with the feral flock outside my door...so...

You did a great job!

Your weaning method is genious...!

Lol...

I can just see his expression, too...and him thinking, "Hmmmm, well...now 'where' are those Seeds again? Maybe...I will see about pecking now!"


I am sorry to hear about your Cat...

And with Pudge flying off to commence making his way-in-the-world, I know their presences are conspicuously absent.

Good work you did there...raising and careing for the little Squablette unto his young adulthood and debut...!

I am sure he is fine, goofing arounsd, socializeing, and having fun with the things Pigeons do.

I am surprised how many quite young, small, no white Wattles yet, of feral youngsters I am seeing amid the grazeing many of my feral flock here.

I wish I had their tolerance for these 30s and 40s temps lately.

Yeeeeesh, they are taking Baths for Pete's sake, in Water Bowls no warmer than the outside air...and enjoying it...! - and I am all bundled up!


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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