# Guess who needs help now????



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Ok. This is a first and I have no idea what to do. We had a bird come home this AM that appears to have been hit by a hawk. I'm not sure how much damage has been done but it did fly home. I THINK when it got a drink of water, the water ran out but it could have been oozing. We're letting it rest a little while, then we are going out to look at her real good, but I'm not sure we'll know what we are looking at. I've never even seen a pigeon with this kind of injury.
I guess I need to start her on anti-biotics but the only thing I have is amoxicillin. If I can use that, I need to know how to mix it. The directions on the bottle are for mixing a gallon of water and I'm assuming that I don't want to mix that much as it won't last more than a day. So, can someone help me out here?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Lovebirds,

Can you post all information from the labeling of the product? And did you get it on line where perhaps there is more info?

fp


----------



## pigeonkid1046 (Nov 16, 2005)

Welp....amoxicillan is a good anti-biotic. I think it is 1 tsp. per gallon. Not sure but maby you could refrigerate it? If I were you, I would give it antibiotics right away because my grandpa had one that had its back all torn up behind its wings, and he put it on amoxicillin and it healed up in about 5 or 6 days. I really don't think it goes bad in 1 day though. We always mixed it up and made new stuff 3 days later. People are more picky about that then others.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Is she isolated & on heat Renee? 

Cindy


----------



## Chocolateedd (Mar 27, 2006)

*one thing*

when my doves got injured by other birds, one thing that helped the wounds heal up very quickly is bacitracian, which can be found at cvs and just basically any store with a med section. You want to apply it to the wound and keep the bird warm. Im hoping for the best. Ed


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's a picture of the wound. We have the bird isolated in a small box in our loft that was built for just such occasions. It is warm here today so I don't think she needs a heating pad. I don't know how I would keep her on it anyway. She's pretty spunky considering. We have just gone out and cleaned the wound with diluted peroxide and put neosporin on it. After looking at it again, I don't think that it's all the way through. I'll just have to keep an eye on her today. I haven't seen her eat yet. I'll keep everybody posted.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

The amoxicillin I have is from Foys I think. The only instructions on the bottle is "6 capsules in a gallon".


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Oh Renee, 

That poor pigeon....the wound looks nasty Have you tried to part the feathers to see what is actually going on? I think you're going to have to clip around the wound so that you can see the extent of the damage. This way, you'll be able to treat the area better as well. Perhaps it just needs to be sewn back up but it's really hard to see how bad it really is.

I wish you success in getting your bird back to good health.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonkid1046 said:


> she needs to go to an aviain vet asap. if not, wrap her in gause. is that her internals?


I could not see anything that looked like an "internal organ", not that I've ever seen any internal organs, but the whole wound looks that same. Looks like a layer of skin is ripped open sort of, don't really know how to explain it. At first I thought the wound was in the front, right where her crop is, but it's more to the left (holding the pigeon facing you) and sort of under her wing. I am just amazed that a bird could, one sustain an injury like this and get away from what ever did it, and two, that she still flew home. Absolutey amazing creatures...............


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Renee, 

Sorry about your bird, does look like a nasty wound, is there any sign of leaking from the crop?

I'm not sure of the concentration, so you could just mix the full amount, and refridgerate the unused amount to continue using. In the meantime, you could always order more and have it next dayed to you. 

Think I'd syringe to make sure that the bird is getting enough, you'd also know 
if there were a tear in the crop if it started to leak after syringing.

fp


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm not really sure about the leaking from the crop. I can mix up the meds and syringe, but how much or how many times a day do you think I should do this? I'm going out now and syringe just some plain water into her and see if it leaks out. If it does, we've got a whole new problem here. I'll be back soon...........


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that is more of a surface issue. The muscling there is quite thick. You're very near a lobe of the crop so there could be some leakage. This is a tough deal because it's an interesting wound from the "how" aspect. If it was a hawk (high probability) then you have to wonder if there were any deep claw punctures that aren't showing up in other places.

If water oozes out then you just know you've got a puncture of the crop and it doesn't take much of one. Brad's right--you need to get the scissors going to find the extent of the wound.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, my husband just became a doctor/surgeon.............we cut away some feathers, syringed some water and it did leak out. He found the hole and we took a needle, sterilized it good with alcohol and he sewed it up. After he finished we gave her more water and didn't see any leak out, so hopefully it's closed up. I guess all we can do now is watch her. She has eaten because we could see a seed or two through the hole. Anyway, I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the help.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Did he sew just the crop tissue closed or the full wound?
Think it nees to be done in layers so that it heals first @ the crop.

fp


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

fp's right--the crop does need to be sutured first and left to heal. They don't feel much when you're sewing the actual crop, by the way--it's when you sew the skin that they get a little testy. Since hubby's a surgeon, I'd imagine that he's thought that through, though. 

Depending on what native bacteria the bird's carrying in the crop which has leaked out into the wound, it'd be a good idea to either put it on prophylactic meds or watch it very closely to make sure it's behavior stays perky and interested in living.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I gotta' admit to being a little curious as to what type of needle and thread were used. As a doctor, hubby oughta' have some access to that kind of stuff (or stainless staples--those work, too) but if he had to sterilize a needle...

Enquiring minds wanna' know!

You can use an absorbable (monofilament's best) to do the job and leave it in and then close the outside. But if you used cotton thread, it oughta' come out in a few days.

Another stray thought is: Do you think we can rope hubby into becoming a rehabber and learning enough anatomy and physiology of the birds (crap--it'd be child's play for him!) to start wasting his time here on the board helping with the surgical emergencies?

Pidgey


----------



## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

the poor pigeon 

the wound looks serious, but i hope it isn't too deep and the pigeon will recover, you can see that the bird looks upset


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Did he sew just the crop tissue closed or the full wound?
> 
> 
> fp


Well, I'm not sure. I'll try to explain what he did. When we found the hole, actually the only way we could tell there was a hole there was because we saw a safflower seed that she had eaten. The hole was about the size of 1/2 of a dime. Not really big at all. No seeds were spilling out, just water when we syringed some into her. So he sewed up that small little hole. She never flinched one time while he as doing it. I flinched a million time though for both of us!! That was the only stitches he sewed. No outer layers of skin was sewn together or anything, so I think, I HOPE, it was done correctly. She has amoxicillin water and I just syringed about 2 1/2 cc's into her. I guess for now that's about all we can do. She looks alert and grunts and carries on every time we try to pick her up, so that's a good sign. Even after flying in this morning, I tried to just pick her up off of the aviary and she was having none of that. It took us about 10 minutes to convince her to trap in and then we had to catch her. Keep your fingers crossed........


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Since hubby's a surgeon, I'd imagine that he's thought that through, though.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey..........think you should read my post again!!! LOL. I said "my husband JUST BECAME a surgeon" like about an hour ago!! LOL It didn't seem to bother him to sew the bird up. I HATE needles and it would have been a real problem for me to try it. Actually, the bird didn't seem to mind either. Guess I was the only one having a hard time with it..........


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> But if you used cotton thread, it oughta' come out in a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> Pidgey


Yep, that's what we used. So about how many days do you think before we should take them out? That should be fun.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, shoot, that went over my head so fast it took the little remaining hair that I had with it!

Gotta' get a toupee' now...

Oh, well, sounds like you're heading in the right direction. I hope you left some long tails on the stitches so that you can find them later to take them out. The hole will probably heal in three to five days. Need to keep the outer wound openable to take the stitches out and we need to keep it from drying.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Well, shoot, that went over my head so fast it took the little remaining hair that I had with it!
> 
> Gotta' get a toupee' now...
> 
> ...


yes, I think we will be able to find them with no problem. I'll keep some neosporin on it? Is that ok you think?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Renee,

I'm sorry to hear one of your "babies" got injured by a hawk. I'm glad she is feisty and feeling good. Our birds are so resilient.... thank goodness!

Sounds like she is in good hands as you are doing everything that is necessary, and I'm sure your 24/7 care will do wonders..


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, maybe things aren't so good after all. I just went out to check on her, and there she stood with water running down her chest, which means, we didn't get the hole completely closed. Now what do we do? Unstitch and restitch? Let me ask this. If you take a styrofoam cup and poke a hole in it and fill it with water, the water won't run out until you fill up to the hole. The hole in this birds crop is pretty high. Can she still drink water and get enough to sustain her and the hole close up on it's own with the stitches that are there? Does the crop work like the cup? Or is all the water she drinks going to run out? If so, obviously we've got to do something.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it's complicated. My vet originally stitched up Pierpont's crop and it opened up and started leaking within a few days. It healed in the form of a fistula, which is like your mouth--skin on the outside meeting the epithelial layers (inside-of-mouth-membrane) on the inside. Your problem likely is that the sutures loosened up due to the liquids in the crimped tissues getting squeezed out (the crimps being defined by the stitches). It's like the ring you get around your ankle from wearing tight socks.

Anyhow, there are special suturing techniques that can be used to secure a crop closed but they're tricky--it'd be best if you had the right surgical instruments and proper sutures (complete with the needles). That's more study than you want to do. The fact is that the healing can be managed in stages. Just bring the bird in, put it in a box or cage, clean the wound and don't feed it or allow it to have any water for a couple of days. If you can't stomach that idea, then give it a dropper of water at a time. You can give it Pedialyte if you want in very small amounts spaced out over time. That will allow the wound to seal up a lot more. Don't let it have a full meal for a week or so. I saw the picture--that bird's gotta' lotta' reserves!

Pidgey


----------



## pigeonkid1046 (Nov 16, 2005)

Updates? We need to find a good name for this bird.  Hope the little fellow hangs in there!! He is in good hands.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonkid1046 said:


> Updates? We need to find a good name for this bird.  Hope the little fellow hangs in there!! He is in good hands.



Not really much to update. She's still hanging in there. I just went out to clean her wound a little and apply some neosporin and she's a handfull to handle by myself but I got it done. She had been in the food a little this afternoon but didn't eat much so I took it out of her box for the night. Wanna name her? I'll let you pick the name. It is a hen by the way. Go for it!! LOL


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Survived a battle with something nasty... 

"Purple Heart?"

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Survived a battle with something nasty...
> 
> "Purple Heart?"
> 
> Pidgey


Well that's a good one. I'm really unimaginative when it comes to naming animals. Any others??


----------



## The pigeon man (Mar 13, 2006)

thats a good name for such a bird that survived something nasty


Vik


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Just came from the loft. The bird seems pretty good this AM. Waiting on my husband so we can go out and clean the wound again. When I turned the lights on she grunted them she stretched both wings and legs like nothing was wrong. These birds must have a HIGH tolerance of pain. If I had a wound like that I'd be laid up in bed crying the blues!! LOL


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

These birds must have a HIGH tolerance of pain. If I had a wound like that I'd be laid up in bed crying the blues!! LOL[/QUOTE]

And most of us would LOL.
I think too birds and animals in general have a much higher tolerance of pain.
So glad to hear she is doing good.

Reti


----------



## pigeonkid1046 (Nov 16, 2005)

Glad to hear she is doing well, keep us posted.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, she has done good today. I'm measuring her water so I know how much she is drinking and I haven't seen any wet spots in her box where it would have leaked out like I did yesterday. I'm watching her food intake to for a day or so. Gave her a tablespoon this AM. She picked out her favorite seeds and left the rest so I guess she ate about half of it. Gave her another tablespoon this afternoon and she ate all of that. I think she'll be ok. Just won't be racing this year but hopefully she will be well enough by next week end so that I can put her in the box with her mate when he comes in from the race. I'll have to watch her for that though and definetly won't put her in there if she's not healed up enough.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Renee, 

Thanks for the update today on the pigeon. Can you to your bird to your vet to be looked at? I think you're going to need to have the hole sutured up to prevent the organs from drying out. 

Sounds like the bird is doing well but I can't see how it can fully recuperate and heal with it's internal organs exposed like that.

Hope it all goes well.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Brad,

You make it sound so bad! Technically, the crop is an internal organ but the rest of that looks to be the breast muscles. Now, those can dry out and keeping NeoSporin on it will not help to keeping it from doing that. It always did for me when it's under a bandaid but it didn't do a thing for Pierpont--only getting the skin back over it helped.

So, how is the main wound--what did/are y'all doing with that and how's it looking? It wouldn't be a bad idea to pull then edges together part way so that you can cover more of it up--you just need to leave enough hole to monitor the crop wound and take the stitches back out.

Another picture?

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

"Purple Heart" is doing very good. I have her in a small box, about 18" X 12" or there abouts. She's starting to pace a lot back and forth and grunt. She wants out!!! The box has a screen door on the front so she can see me in the mornings. Do you think it would be ok to put her in a breeding pen by herself for a few more days? The pens are about 3 ft wide with an attached aviary and two shelves so she would be prone to fly up to a shelf to roost at night. Or do you think that's to much room to move in for now? I'll try to get a picture of her tomorrow. She's eating good, two tablespoons a day, one in the AM and one in the evening.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How big is the actual flesh wound at this point? It looked to be somewhere about the size of a half-dollar. Is it staying real pink or is it darkening up?

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here's a few pics of "Purple Heart" taken a few minutes ago. I'll let you guys be the judge on how you think it looks. She is still "acting" fine. Eating good and pooping normally. The only thing that I can tell is wrong with her by her actions is that fact that she's getting tired of being locked in that tiny box with no sunshine or fresh air. Tell me what you think. If I put her in a breeding pen, the only flying she would do is to fly from the floor up to a perch. Other than that, I'm sure she'd spend the day lounging out in the small aviary. PS:Got to delete some pics before I post the others. Be back in a few.................


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here are the rest:
The wound appears bigger in todays picture, but that's because the first one we took was before we cut away a bunch of feathers.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does this outline reflect the borders of the actual wound:

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

That's part of it, but the whole that was in the crop is not there.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And where is that part?

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm going to go and look at her again. I'll be right back..............


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OK. The actual hole or where it is, is covered by that little tuff of feathers. I tried putting a circle around it like you did, but just to show you where it is. You can't really see it in the picture.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does that mean that the skin opening is roughly in an "ell" (L) shape as shown above by the combination of the two outlines?

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Does that mean that the skin opening is roughly in an "ell" (L) shape as shown above by the combination of the two outlines?
> 
> Pidgey


No, not really. The wound looks more like maybe a layer of skin was torn back, maybe in a couple of spots. Sort of like a badly skinned knee. The main damage was the hole in the crop that was about 1/4" diameter. All of the wound looks like normal skin color. I don't see anything that looks infected or looks like it's oozing or anything. I don't know if I could get a better picture.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, what you're saying is that the bulk of the wound is just randomly scattered abrasions that have scabbed over and the only missing chunk of skin per se was the portion that you outlined? That very first picture looked like the skin wound was much larger of a hole than that.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> So, what you're saying is that the bulk of the wound is just randomly scattered abrasions that have scabbed over and the only missing chunk of skin per se was the portion that you outlined? That very first picture looked like the skin wound was much larger of a hole than that.
> 
> Pidgey



UMMMmmmmm age 100??? Are you feeling older today? Just saw that, ........anyway, the wound has not scabbed over. It's still looks like pink fresh meat (sorry, don't know how else to describe it), but it's not an "open" wound as in seeing layers of skin showing. I know that first picture looked bad and it freaked me out but I guess the hole in the crop was the worst part of the whole wound. If she was laying around looking like she didn't feel good, I'd be worried but she's far from acting like that. The way she is acting, I would almost be tempted to put her back in the loft with her hen friends. But I still have her on the amoxicillin and of course don't want the others drinking that so she will have to stay alone a few more days. The directions on the amox. say give for 7 days. Do you think that's ok or should I go for 10 days. I thought most antibiotics were taken for 10 days.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Depends on the infection and the medication. You're only using it to prevent the possibility of an acute, systemic Pasteurella multocida infection. My guess would be that you could possibly be okay to discontinue in as little as five days but I'd have to look that up so don't stop on my word here.

Bird skid is real bad about getting ripped open and making a gaping hole over muscle or bone that won't naturally cover back over of its own accord (at least not usually in a timely fashion or one that re-feathers the area properly). In such cases, healing it quicker is definitely enhanced by stitching it up. How many days has the crop been sewn up, now? You might should look at that wound to see if it's sealing up because you might be able to remove those stitches now before they get lost inside (grown around).

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Lovebirds,

I wouldn't think you would want to take her off the Amoxicillin much before the would has sealed. Doing so I think may risk a chance of infection if it is still open anywhere. Amoxicillin is one of the least toxic antibiotics in the sense that it is well tolerated even at high doses and has a wide margin of safety.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> How many days has the crop been sewn up, now? You might should look at that wound to see if it's sealing up because you might be able to remove those stitches now before they get lost inside (grown around).
> 
> Pidgey



5 days. Tomorrow will be 6.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

jazaroo said:


> Hi Lovebirds,
> 
> I wouldn't think you would want to take her off the Amoxicillin much before the would has sealed. Doing so I think may risk a chance of infection if it is still open anywhere. Amoxicillin is one of the least toxic antibiotics in the sense that it is well tolerated even at high doses and has a wide margin of safety.


Well I've got 50 capsules and I'm mixing one at a time so I'll just keep her on it for a few more days and see how the wound looks.


----------



## pigeonkid1046 (Nov 16, 2005)

Great to hear he....../she is making a great recovery. Hope she keeps doing well.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Lovebirds, 

As Jazaroo suggests, I think I would continue the antibiotic treatment until the bird has a visit w/an avian vet. I would be concerned at this point about the closure of the outer layers of the wound and would want a vet to take a look at 
it, and the current treatment plan. He may feel that some of the outer layers need to be surgically 'trimmed' and then stitched. He may want to adjust the 
antibiotic schedule as well. I would seek an avian vets assessment, not to scare you, jmo.

fp


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

One last update.........Purple Heart got moved back into the main loft yesterday afternoon. She spent about 20 minutes with her mate before he was shipped to the race. She was sooooooooo happy. Then her mate was late today so she was able to just lounge around in the aviary in the sun and just chill most of the day. She's doing just fine but will look a little rough until the feathers we cut away grow back in. Thanks again for all the help we got during the crisis............


----------



## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Very good news, thanks for the update.

Ron


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

That's great news, Renee! Thanks for letting us know! Your husband must have done a stellar stitching job!

Terry


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Lovebirds/Renee,

I'm so glad to hear that your girl is doing better and shows continual improvement. Thanks for your update, I'm sure she's delighted to be w/her mate again.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee - great to hear PH is doing better. "Yall" did a great job. See, now you can't say you have no experience rehabbing a bird after the fine job you and your husband did. Heck, we've been at this 12+ years and have never had to sew one up.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Renee - great to hear PH is doing better. "Yall" did a great job. See, now you can't say you have no experience rehabbing a bird after the fine job you and your husband did. Heck, we've been at this 12+ years and have never had to sew one up.


Uh - Maggie - not to scare you or anything, but I wouldn't say that if I were you...y'know what I mean???   

Lovebirds: SOOOO GLAD to hear Purple Heart is doing well. CONGRATULATIONS!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so glad Purple Heart is healed and back in her routine with her mate. That is wonderful news.

I'm sure she is greatful to be back with her hubby, and she owes it all to you and your husbands wonderful care!


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Shi, you're absolutely right! What in the world made me make that comment?


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Shi, you're absolutely right! What in the world made me make that comment?


Maggie, just always looking for new adventures in life, aren't 'cha  ??


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Shi, you're absolutely right! What in the world made me make that comment?


Temporary insanity?? Or, as fp said, need for adventure???


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Purple Heart took her first flight this morning. It was a short one, but she did it anyway. That's sort of like us running around the block 1 1/2 weeks after surgery!!! GEEZZZZZZZZZZ.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

GREAT NEWS! ...Talk about bouncing back.....before you know it she will want to race again.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Shi and fp - ALL 0F THE ABOVE


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> GREAT NEWS! ...Talk about bouncing back.....before you know it she will want to race again.


No racing for her this year. Even if she was up to it physically, she's got a bare chest where we cut away her feathers so there's no protection there. And I have my doubts about being ready physically. Big difference in taking a spin around the yard and flying 200 + miles........We're already out to our 300 mile race station in OB's and it only gets longer from there. I'm just depending on her mate, a 2005 cock bird to learn the game and know that every time he comes home, she'll be waiting on him. If that works, then she's doing her job for the year. LOL


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I just gotta' ask--didja' ever take the cotton stitches out?

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> I just gotta' ask--didja' ever take the cotton stitches out?
> 
> Pidgey


Yes we did...........there was only 3........now I gotta ask...........weren't you 100 just a few days ago and now I see you're 10. WHAT'S YOUR SECRET???? You could be a millionaire!!!! LOL


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Glad to hear that you took them out--those kind can't be left in as the body can't absorb them. A lot of racers do it that way.

Just a tap of the computer keys. You didn't know that a computer had the power to change age and other attributes, didja'? It's a VIRTUAL deal, you see. "Pidgey" doesn't REALLY exist--it's just an alter-ego.

Pidgey the Not-Completely-Real


----------

