# Blockage - Vent Injury - Squeaker



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I found a squeaker (Union Square) whose vent was damaged by an injury. We saw Dr Pilny (VIMAS) twice and things were moving along but since this morning the small opening to the side of his vent through which waste was passing through has closed down. I tube fed him early this morning the formula. It is still in his crop. He is trying very hard to push things out but nothing is coming through. The soonest appointment I could make with the veterinarian was 4 PM tomorrow. 

Do you people think he will be OK till then if the waste doesn't start coming out?

Thank you!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ab, 



Can you provide more background?


His Vent proper is not passing anything, but some secondary opening was? Was but now stopped?

Was the secondary opening something occuring from an injury? somehting his Body did? something the Vet did?


What meds has he been on?


What kind of food has he had?


What were the poops / urates looking like when they were passing?


Images of his injury?

and of the last poops/urates?



Phil
Lv


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Hi Phil,

I found him about two weeks ago. Something happened to his rear. All of his tail feathers and most of the feathers from one of his wings were pulled out and his vent was all deformed, bruised and inflamed. The poops/urates were then and have been, until last night, leaking out from the opening which apparently was formed on the left side of his vent where the round vent muscle was severed from the injury; being cut on one side his vent muscle is not functioning. At the beginning this opening was large enough that the waste was passing and dripping out easily but it looks like that it has slowly closed down. Two days ago I noticed he began to force stuff out and it will burst out. 

I have been feeding him Kaytee "exact" formula by tube. Only thing I was instructed to do is to clean and lubricate the area with the antibiotic ointment. The waste that was coming out seemed normal as far as I could tell. 

All I've seen come out off him since early this morning is very small amount of whitish liquid. He is constantly trying to force things out but nothing happens. I'm going to stop feeding him since the formula which I fed him about 2 PM today seems to be still in his crop. 

My main question and concern now is regarding the complication that can happen from the blockage. Is this an emergency situation? How long before I must do something. Our last vet visit was last Monday.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

AB, I would be prone to wanting to take a well lubed Q-Tip and insert this into the vent to see if things can be coaxed out. To do this I would take a Q-Tip and remove half of the cotton ball, just make sure when you do this the remaining half is well attached still, this smaller ball will make it a bit easier to ease in. If you had some Preparation-H around I would put a generous amount on the Q-Tip (use Vaseline if you have no Prep-H) and then some on the vent opening and very gently, and slowly, try and insert it, turning/twirling the Q-Tip a bit to help it in and hope between the lubrication and you maybe opening up things a bit, he can then void. It would be good if you could get him to void a few times until you get him in to help prevent him from going toxic.

Karyn


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you don't have any pre-made hydrating formulas @ home, you might consider
using the IRS formula and give in small amounts w/shorter time frames between
tubing.

I take it no 'drain' was placed in the other opening on the side?

fp


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Karyin, I tried that couple of hours ago using the Bacitraycin ointment and a Q-Tip and the vent, whatever is left of it, started bleeding so I stopped. The vet told me that it is better to leave it alone because any messing with it would make the inflammation worse. However, now, we have the danger of going toxic, as you put it. Do you think this might happen if I wait till I see the vet which would be about 16 hours from now and what does "going toxic" exactly mean? I suppose I could try to probe with the Q-Tip where the opening was which is healed now?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

By going toxic, I mean waste by products, such as ammonia, that would be eliminated through normal voiding, building up in his system poisoning his system so his organs start to shut down. Don't know how long a squeaker would have without being able to void before his system started to shut down, a lot less time that an adult I would imagine and with an adult I would say around 24-36 hours before death may ensue. I would consider this squeaker critical and call in early in the morning and let them know or do what I have done before for a critical bird, be there when they open their doors in the morning.

Karyn


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I would see if they could see the bird sooner. Did they not put a drain in the side puncture?

fp


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Firalpigeon, I do have little bit of hydrating formula left at home and there is no problem getting some more; Duane Reade around the corner is open 24 hours. But do you think I should be giving him anything now? His crop has been full since I last fed him almost 12 hrs ago.

What do you mean by " 'drain' placed in the other opening"? The other opening is actually right on the side where the circular vent muscle was cut so in a way it is connected to the vent. Do you mean something like a tube can be placed in the opening?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi ab, 




Images? ( showing the wound, and Vent area? ) 


Why were there no Suture repairs to the torn area via the Vet?


I am not understanding the details of the wound, and, why the normal aperature was not in some way favored by a procedure to repair the fistula/Tear/wound-channel?


Peritonitis would be likely if fecal matter related materials are permitted to escape into the interior areas of the abdomen...or also systemic infections could result.


It does not sound to me as though the Vet had managed this well.


If there is local infection/inflammation...or inflamitory debris...these could close off the normal aperature...


I am just not getting a clear enough mental picture of how deep, how severe, through how much tissue, why was not sutured, etc.

Dog Mauling?


Is the youngster on Antibiotics?


Anyway, "yes", if his system is functioning well, eating well, and poops and urates can not be released, he is in definite serious trouble, 'crisis', and will not last long unless it is resolved.


He will not dehydrate in a day, so maybe with-hold food and water, pending an early Vet visit tomorrow.


Phil
Lv


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

OK! I was able to get some stuff out of him. I used one of those rubber tip gum stimulator to slowly widen the opening and then I gave him 12 ml of hydrating solution.

Phil, I am sorry I couldn't explain better what is going on and I am not set up for taking pictures at the moment (my digital camera is still in the box), but, trust me, the vet is one of the best avian vets around and I believe is doing the best that can be done in this situation.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...

Do appeal to him as soon as possible, for him to re-examine the wound, since present conditions as you describe, are seriously inconvenient for the Bird, and, for you!!

Is the youngster on a systemic Antibiotic presently?


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks Phil!

Well, I spent most of the last night getting the waste out of him. I gave him a lot of Pedialyte and little by little a lot of dark olive green, foul smelling stuff was eliminated.

At 4 this afternoon, we saw Dr Pinly. It was decided that we are going to give some more time for the inflammation to come down and hopefully things will correct by itself. If not, the next step would be a reconstructive micro surgery. Right now he is on antibiotic and anti-inflammatory medication.

To clarify things a little... When I found him about two weeks ago, his injury must have been already few weeks old because his tail and his wing feathers were grown back a few inches at that time. Also, it appears, the injury was not by a predator but by an impact and pressure; perhaps a bicycle wheel. There is no major skin wound. Most of the damage was done internally so it is hard to know exactly what is going on in there. As I said, Union Square is lucky he is getting the best medical help. Dr Pilny is: DVM, Diplomate ABVP (Avian), avian and exotic pet medicine and surgery and was highly recommended. I thank Jennifer for this.

I admit it's been tough on both of us. At the moment, I am also dealing with three bad cases of PMV and a major ligament wing injury; but I was lucky I could get three weeks of vacation from my work.

By the way, Phil, if you remember my last thread about the feral who lost all of his tail feathers... I decided to let him decide weather he wants to stay or go. I started leaving the door open for him. He was hesitant at first but after couple of days he took off but came back the next day and has been visiting every day since. At first he looked funny flying but his tail grew back fast.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB, 



I do not understand this sort of injury well enough to understand the Vet's reasoning.


A Stint could probably help...just a short length of flame rounded 'end' Plastic Soda Straw or the likes...


But I do not know how this injury is to be expected to heal, if the injury imagines itself to be non-debrided for material passing out of it...


Sorry you have such a difficult one to manage!!!


Oye...


I would have thought, anti-inflamitories/relaxants and or injections there of even, for the Vent proper if needed...and, Suture the respective layers of the tear on the side...and Stint the Vent if need be...far as my own naive imagings.


Vents can be sensitive to Nerve issues sometimes too...throwing off their usual responce for elimination schedules...


ACV-Water and Pro-Biotics might aid his system in this situation.


Glad to hear the update of your Tail-Less one..!


They look like 'Ducks' kind of when flying with no Tail...


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Just one thing to add to the other good advice you are getting from board members and the vet.

When we have a bird that is not passing feces, has a blocked vent, etc. we use the q-tip method. But, in addition, you can add a drop of mineral oil to the qtip when massaging around the vent - the mineral oil warms (much like baby oil) and is stimulating. A drop of mineral oil down the throat is also harmless and encourages them to move their eliminate and makes it much easier.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

AB, glad you were able to get him cleaned out last night, you did good. Sounds like you have a good vet advising, please keep us updated of this little one's progress. I had a bird with a prolapse once and Preparation-H worked, IMHO, very well to reduce swelling and inflammation, you may want to try some to the vent area.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB,


Good luck on this!


I am sorry I just do not have anything much to contribute!

Wish I did...

Certainly, anything you can do to encourage his Bowels relieving themselves, is good.

Two weeks, most cuts or tears would have long since healed or be pretty well done.

So, several things here I am not understanding...

Do you have an opinion on how much healing has occurred so far?


Post some images when you can..?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Many thanks!

I just went to the drug store and bought some Mineral Oil and Preparation H ointment. 

This is a very difficult situation. The center of his vent is totally closed. The opening right next to it is very small and it's not clear where it exactly leads and how is it connected to the cloaca or maybe intestine. The Q-Tip even when most of cotton is removed will not go in there. If I try to push it, bleeding starts. I am using now the tip of that brown long feeding tube some of you may be familiar with. I am afraid there might be a lot of internal damage; only several of his tail feathers are growing back and they are deformed and all crooked to one side.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB,



When are you going to see the Vet again?


Please have him explain in detail, his reasoning for allowing this condition to have remained for two weeks, with no repair/Suturing of the torn tissues, thus permitting the un-natural exit of fecal materials.


I can not understand the reasoning.

If this is a tear communicating to the interior of the Cloaca...it is less a danger for toxemia than if it is a tear communicating through the abdominal wall and to a tear in the Intestine...where the entire Abdominal cavity would be contaminated, and, occasioning a lethal systemic infection.

But still...I do not think it is going to heal well, if fecal material and attending bacteria from it, are continually in contact with it in this way.

Nor apparently, is fecal material succeeding to exit through the tear or the Cloaca proper, anymore...so...

I think he needs to re-appraise his mental model of just how this was supposed to work, or, heal...and to look carefully at how things are presently.


Bleeding of the Cloaca two weeks after the injury does not sound like the condition of the Tissues are doing well at all.



So sorry...


Pigeons who have a Nerve injury which prevents easy opening or response of the Cloaca...the Cloaca expands, holding back large amounts of material...and, these Birds, when being cared for, can be checked for this every few hours, and, warm Water and gentle massaging of the base of the Cloaca, permits them ro release the materials.


If his reasoning was that he did not believe the Cloaca would manage well enough in actualizing a normal tone and nervous response for elimination process with the side tear Sutured, he could be reminded of this method for assisted eliminations, which, probably, would work well-enough for this situation.


Phil
Lv


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Dobato said:


> By going toxic, I mean waste by products, such as ammonia, that would be eliminated through normal voiding, building up in his system poisoning his system so his organs start to shut down. Don't know how long a squeaker would have without being able to void before his system started to shut down, a lot less time that an adult I would imagine and with an adult I would say around 24-36 hours before death may ensue.


You know, I used to think that (it just seems logical) also, but when I asked the vet (actually, two vets) about it, they both said there was no danger of an animal developing toxemia from fecal retention. Of course, birds defecate combined urine + feces, so I don't know how the urine component plays into potential risks associated with fecal retention with them as opposed to mammals, but the vet said that if the crop was emptying, eventually the feces would come out, even if the vent area just emptied passively. In one case, one of my birds was retaining feces (secondary to other things going on with her) for up to 24h over a few days. 

Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante, if I'm understanding this correctly, the bird has an abdominal fistula right near the cloaca, and he is not voiding out of the cloaca itself because it's obstructed as a result of trauma?

As far as I know, only fresh wounds can be sutured, and you've said that the injury was likely already a couple weeks old by the time you found him. Also, I'm wondering if abdominal fistulas will heal themselves in the same way that crop fistulas can and do. I'd be interested in Pidgey's input on this.

Jennifer


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

jenfer said:


> You know, I used to think that (it just seems logical) also, but when I asked the vet (actually, two vets) about it, they both said there was no danger of an animal developing toxemia from fecal retention. Of course, birds defecate combined urine + feces, so I don't know how the urine component plays into potential risks associated with fecal retention with them as opposed to mammals, but the vet said that if the crop was emptying, eventually the feces would come out, even if the vent area just emptied passively. In one case, one of my birds was retaining feces (secondary to other things going on with her) for up to 24h over a few days.
> 
> Jennifer


Jennifer. I think what you said is kind if my thinking on this, that the fecal part would not be a huge issue for a few days, I know in humans it's not, that problems that come into play, I believe, are principally from not being able to eliminate urine, that's why I mentioned ammonia. My thoughts in instances where an egg bound hen has lost the ability to void that they expire from not being able to eliminate the urine and not so much the fecal component of their droppings, this of course supposes there is no infection issues involved, just a complete blockage taking place.

To tell you the truth, I have never asked my vet about this (I will next time I see him though), as I assumed the birds that I am aware of who expired from egg binding, who completely lost the ability to void, went toxic from this happening.


Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, there will be limits regardless on retention delays and their consequences, I am sure...before Kidney and digestive issues begin.

Pigeons having old 'holes' in Abdomens Chests or Crop areas, I have gotten in, always healed in a few days once debrided...healed too fast even for my liking, since usually I was still wanting to continue with successive flushings of the interior to free it of any remaining debris.

Left un-debrided, they would remain open and unresolved more or less indefinitely, or, only close very slowly over a long time.

So there is a conflict then, if waiting for a constantly contaminated 'hole' to heal...since their Body generally will not heal it any time soon, if at all.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Hi Jennifer, how are you? This tiny fistula which is the only opening through which his excrement is coming out is right next to his cloacal opening (vent). Hopefully, it is connected to and draining the cloaca NOT the intestine. I think I overheard Dr Pilny discussing with his colleague that it is extremely unlikely that this opening is leading to the intestine. 

Phil, I think that there was a concern for this opening (the only opening) on the side of the vent closing down if there was a surgical interference. Also, my understanding is that the vent is a circular muscle and as such when completely torn cannot be sutured back together. 

Anyway, I am not a doctor (only had some pre-med schooling) and I am only interpreting what my rough understanding is of what I heard from the pro. 

On the positive note... I saw Union pick on seeds and swallowing this morning so I think I am going to stop tube feeding him. He's been alert and overall in good spirits. Also, the Preparation H, which I believe has a lot of mineral oil in it, seems to be helping with the extraction of fecal matter. It is little by little coming out now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB, 



Well...if the plan was for the fistula to gradually heal, as the Cloaca gradually rseumes tone and response function...then...yeah, that would make sense to me...sorry I was being so difficult...Lol...

I just was having a hard time for some reason, wrapping my head around it...plus, I can not see it for myself to get a better idea of the actual condition.

A comfortable temp of Warm Water either running over the Tummy/Cloaca, or immersing the Bird partway into it, but Warm Water on his Cloaca area might aid it in electing to relax to permit fecal/urate eliminations...I know this is a help for Back Injury Pigeons who loose the ability for the time being to relax the Cloaca for eliminations to happen.

Those, we work out a routine where I hold them vertically, so running Tap Water can cascade down their Belly and so on, and they 'release' then...and or with them, I may also do light massaging of the area at the same time to help encourage the Cloaca to relax and let stuff out.

They get the drift and are glad to co-operate and they understand the ritual.

These I believe can in fact die for being unable otherwise to eliminate...so they need these ways of helping.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> On the positive note... I saw Union pick on seeds and swallowing this morning so I think I am going to stop tube feeding him. He's been alert and overall in good spirits. Also, the Preparation H, which I believe has a lot of mineral oil in it, seems to be helping with the extraction of fecal matter. It is little by little coming out now.


AB, you want to consider not letting this little one have real food (seeds and so on) as to my thinking, wet, loose droppings will be much easier to get out of him than the more dry fecal matter seeds would produce.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Seems so to me also...

Adding a little fresh sweet Olive Oil to his Formula would be good to do also, nutritionally, as well as making things a little easier on his Bowels and the elimination aspects.

If his Gizzard is working good, and he had good Grit, and he is grinding up the Seeds well, I guess 'Who Cares', the Poops will be hardly different really than from formula would have done.

If any question on how well his Gizzard is doing, then 'Formula' would be best for the time being.

At least I see that here, formula fed convelescents making perfect poops which appear no different than those who eat Seeds, so...

Maybe a little Olive Oil on the Seeds, or in the Formula, would be good, either way...far as finding things to help or ease matters.


And encouraging good hydration, of course..!


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Well...if the plan was for the fistula to gradually heal, as the Cloaca gradually rseumes tone and response function...then...yeah, that would make sense to me...


Yes, I think that is what we were and are still hoping for. If this does not happen then a reconstructive surgery may be the only option. I am afraid that there might be some damage inside which we are not aware of because it is not visible. All I am seeing is the vent which is protruding out and looks like a nipple. He is moving and contracting it but it is totally closed. Few ml to the left is where the waste is coming out. This is a very small hole which you cannot see unless feces are coming out. I believe that he has the function of the cloaca because, as he is trying to push the stuff out, I can see him bulging like a very hard balloon and then deflating, contracting an area the size of a large chestnut at his rear (above and back from his abdomen). I am assuming this is the cloaca, the extracting system. By the way, I can see this clearly because all of the feathers around this area that were still there had to be removed or otherwise it would be very difficult to keep it clean.

I am concerned about little bit of blood coming from this fistula and at the vent. I hope this is only from the irritation and that I didn't tear anything inside with the rubber/plastic things I've been pushing in trying to unplug him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Please consider the Warm Water things I was mentioning...just some nice temperature of Warm Water running over it, with gentle 'massages' of the base of the Vent/Cloaca, while the Water is running over the them.

Back/Nerve injury Pigeons, Vents fill up and get swollen full of material, and need these coaxings to release material, even though the Organ pulsates or or is trying to eliminate at times without success...so this may help for your Pigeon also.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

AB, any chance of some close-up photos of the area to help us better visualize things. Also, could you be specific of the meds he is on and their doses.

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you! Yes, I've been trying with warm water, spraying, bathing, wet warm towel and so on. The vet has suggested the same thing.

Regarding medication... I am only giving him what I got from the vet which is:

1. Sulfamethoxazole #1, 0.14 cc twice daily for 10 days.

2. Metacam oral susp. 10ml #1, 0.03 cc twice daily for 3 days, then once daily for 7 days.

Sorry about the pictures that is no pictures; as I mentioned above, the camera is still in the box.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

When I do it on the versions I sometimes get in...I just hold them vertically, so the Warm Tap Water can trickle down over their poop-swollen Vent, and with my free Hand, I gently massage the base area, and, soon, it relaxes enough to let some huge held-back volumes of material start slowly oozing out...and that may continue for a minute or more.

They get the drift real quick and appreciate the ritual.

In fact, sometimes just holding them vertical and getting the Water adjusted, no water even running on them yet, they start to let it go...just from the prior times having been learned enough for their Body or Mind to permit the Vent muscles to ease up with the ablutions.

Usually, these, are ones whose Legs are 'out' of commission also.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> Hi Jennifer, how are you? This tiny fistula which is the only opening through which his excrement is coming out is right next to his cloacal opening (vent).


Hi Ante, I'm doing fine and hope you are hanging in.

It sounds like the fact that he isn't pooping out the vent doesn't have to do with loss of muscle tone (since you said you see him making contracting motions?) but with the fact that the vent itself is disfigured? If that's the case, once the fistula heals, how will he be able to poop? (I'm just curious because you mentioned possible surgery--but otherwise, would Dr. Pilny expect him to be able to resume pooping out the vent over time?)


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Jennifer, you are right! The vent for some reason is closed. He is pushing things out very hard all the time because it all has to come out through this very small fistula which is between 1/16 and 1/8 of an inch wide. He has to exert a lot of pressure that sometimes his feces/urin shoots back more than 10 Ft. The fistula was wider when I found him but it's been slowly closing down. The reason I am posting this thread is because it did completely close down a few days ago and I was worried about the blockage. I had to force it open by pushing things in.

Dr. Pilny thinks that it is possible that the vent will open up and resume the function when inflammation goes down and things settle. This is why he has put the surgery on hold for a bit longer. Last time I saw him we started with anti-inflammatory and antibiotic medication and decided to give it some more time. If the vent does not open up, then, I think, he is going on with a reconstructive surgery. I guess, he will try somehow if possible to restore it.

Right now my main concern is keeping him clean and moving the waste out of him which is taking most of my time. I have three new PMV patients. Two of them are hand fed and then one very bad ligament wing injury. I am afraid these four are not getting as much of my attention and care as they should because of the difficulty I am having with Union Square.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB,




So...the Vent since you have had them has remained the same? Gotten less able to release material? Or?

What is the history of the Vent/Cloaca so far?

Was all waste being expelled through this injury-hole?


Could you find someone to help you with the Camera?



Phil
Lv


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

The vent has been totally closed since I got him. All of the excrement has been coming out of the fistula all this time. However, I do not recall seeing his vent or cloaca move at the beginning which is happening now; so unless I just missed noticing it at first, this would be an improvement. 

I found the camera, so here couple of images but I don't think one can see anything more than what I've described. Pictures, IMO, are usually deceptive. This from someone for whom image making is a profession (7 years of art school, MFA from UCLA, post graduate work in video and photography, etc.). Moreover, in this case, the problem is internal so even by looking at it it's not clear at all what is going on here. 

Thank you all very much for all your help and suggestions. My question was answered. Karyn's (Dobato's) advice to force open the fistula was a correct one and might have saved Union's life; for now anyway. We are hoping for the best.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

AB, thanks for getting the images up, I can see with that amount of swelling why things are not working right. How does the distension feel when you palpitated it, is it firm or does it feel like there is ascites (fluid in the abdomen) present? If it where me, I would add in some metronidazole today to give broader cover for anaerobic bacteria 50mg/kg BID. How much does Union weigh, I wouldn't mind checking the Sulfamethoxazole dose and roughly guessing, from his look and age, if fluid is being retained. How full does his breast area feel, thin, medium, fairly full, full?

Also, for a bird with Union's condition, I would looking to add in therapy proven to fight inflammation and swelling. I have used the serrapetase enzymes below, with safety and success for one of my birds, this is just one link, you can do more reading on serrapetase if you Google it. The enzymes are available at almost all health food stores. Although, I don't think we have reached the point of salvage therapy yet, I would be pushing things a little to see if I could turn things a bit for him. I open a capsule and use about 1/8 (twice a day) and they can be used with antibiotics.

http://biomediclabsrx.com/serrapetase

Karyn


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry for the late reply.

Here is a better picture. There is no swelling as far as I can see. I think the inflammation is only around the vent. 

Here you can see a bit better where this very small opening is which has been serving as the only passage for all the waste coming out of him all this time. It is the yellowish dot in the middle of red abrasion on the left edge of the vent. You can see how small it is. The tip of 1/16 inch feeding tube goes in with very little pressure but the 1/8 in tip, I have to force in. I have to keep doing this to keep it open enough for the feces to come out. This fistula wants to heal and close down which means blockage since the natural vent opening which is to the right of it is very much closed. I hope this clarifies thing a bit.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would be considering a hollow Stent for the Vent proper to be able to expel waste materials.

Never done it, but, I'd be thinking about it...

I imagine one could be made from a smaller medium Soda Straw piece, plastic, flame soften the leading edge and or also make a slight 'hourglass' aspect to a short length, for it to remain positioned better.

Just thinking aloud anyway...

If the fistula is healing, and nearly closed now, and, in advance of the Vent being able to take over...there is a problem then for how things can go in the mean time.


His abdomen does appear swollen/distended to me, in the images.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Along the lines of what Phil said, I had been wondering whether Dr. Pilny could place in indwelling catheter in the vent. Is the vent itself completely closed? If not, could you do what you are doing now in terms of opening the fistula to allow waste to come out with the vent instead?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A section of conventional Catheter could work as a Stent, so long as it were able to stay in ( only so far ), and, be of an inside diameter, enough for materials to pass through it, without carrying the Stent along with them.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, the vent is closed, period. Nothing can be pushed through it. I have tried many times and Dr. Pinly has tried using a special very narrow and firm surgical cotton swab with no success. All you get is bleeding. Last time I was there, the doctor told me not to try on my own again because I could tear some membrane or other tissue in there and do more damage. 

One thing is interesting... when he pushes feces through the tiny fistula he moves the vent at the same time as if he is trying to extract with it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB, 



This does not sound good.


I hate to appear to be questioning the Vet...but, I kinda think he needs to be finding a way to get a Stent into the Vent's normal aperature, in order for the transition of venue to be able to occur.


Maybe the Vet could try using the top inch or so of a No. 10 or 12 or so, 'Silicone' French Pediatric Urethral Catheter, with a 'Julianne' Cut on the narrow end, and patiently twirl it into and through the actual aperature of the Cloaca, in order to encourage or allow a safe passage for waste to be allowed to exit.

A 'Q-Tip' has entirely a wrong geometry and co-effecient of friction for this, even if lubed, it is a wrond shape and will be trying to pull the sides of the tissue with it.


'Pushing' hard as the Pigeon is, is going to rupture or tear something if he keeps it up...and as the fistula continues to narrow and heal shut, there needs to be some solution!


The wound area almost looked like a prolapse in the images...and if so, this should be looked at very carefully of course.



Best wishes you two!


Phil
Lv


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> Unfortunately, the vent is closed, period. Nothing can be pushed through it.


Hmmm. Perhaps what you need is a catheter through the fistula, then?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Didn't realize there were pictures...

He probably developed the fistula pretty early on but it almost stopped working as his GI has started working more normally. That is, their poop is a lot more liquidy early on and gets more solid as they get older. Of course, for this guy, the more solid it gets, the worse for the bird. I expect that the vent is actually solid--there's no hole. The ring muscles are certainly there, but there's just scar tissue in the center with no hole. It's kinda' academic whether one could eventually be created initially using a hypodermic needle that keeps getting replaced with larger and larger shunts. You'd have to start the bird on antibiotics BEFORE you began such a regimen. I suppose an endoscope could be inserted into the fistula to take a quick look before and during insertion of the initial needle and emplacement of the shunt. The fistula would need to stay open until a suitable rectum was created, and then it could be closed with a simple pursestring suture and some time.

Talk to your vet about that possibility.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...the constricting muscles of the Vent are strong...and the are supposed to be strong, of course.

The inside should normally have a Mucous film, lining things.

For some reason, he is keeping the muscles clamped maximum 'shut', or, he has a Nerve injury which is.


Possibly the Vet could do some very small injections of a Relaxant into the particular area, and, find an easier time then to insert a short, soft Stent made from the spigot-end of a conventional Silicone Catheter, or as may be.


There should be nothing physiologically present to prevent the Vent opening or being coaxed open, unless we are to believe it has grown 'closed' somehow.


If the Cloaca is partially prolapsed, possibly it is folded against itself, mechanically then, preventing egress of waste materials, as well as generating a 'signal' to his Nervous system saying "Keep it clamped totally shut!" Since proprioceptive feedback may be lacking as to it's disposition/status for being open/closed/inbetween...and of course it is only supposed to be open for a brief moment, now and then, is all.

So the fail-safe, I imagine, would be all out 'shut'.




.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB, 


Can we have some more images showing a full on view?


I can't imagine this Pigeon got along this far with no actual oraface/lips/structure there for a Vent.

If the injury happened a couple or three weeks ago, the actual intact physiology of the previously in-use Vent aperature, should be present, unless it was lost in the injury event somehow.



I just spent half an hour on 'google images' with zero success finding any worthwhile anatomical illustrations representing a Cloaca.

I hace seen them, somewhere, but now that I want another look, I can not find one!


Phil
Lv


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Yes, Pidgey, as I understand, Dr Pinly thinks that circular vent muscle got torn on the left side and that there is scar tissue now between it and the secondary fistula. You are correct, vent muscle does feel like a solid lump right now. What Dr. Pinly was initially talking about and I think is still considering is removing this scar tissue. I am assuming in this way he will be able to somehow reconstruct the vent. Last time I was there he was discussing the details with another doctor; micro surgery was mentioned. I think it is fortunate that Dr. Pinly is an avian surgery specialist. I'll mention to him "a hypodermic needle that keeps getting replaced with larger and larger shunts" and see what he thinks.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It might not be known presently, how much of the 'closed' condition is compromise from scar tissue, and, how much is simply the autonomic default setting of keeping it clamped shut, where, if it were to relax, maybe 1/3rd, or 1/2 or who knows, but some of the aperature may be free to open anyway.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks Phil! I am listening and open to suggestions but haven't been able to respond because I am under a lot of pressure right now. When I get a chance, I'll try to post some more photos and maybe re-sketch what Dr. Pinly drew for me as he was explaining the structure of a vent and what happened to this one.

I do have another quick question, if someone has a minute, regarding the pigeon with a wing injury. 

When I found him, he couldn't fly and his right wing was hanging to the ground. The X-rays were taken. There are no broken bones. At this point he is able to hold his wing up and I saw him trying to fly but he can't go too far. Otherwise he is very healthy and strong defending his space. I have no idea how old is the injury but he's been with me for a few weeks.

So, my question is: is it better to still keep him confined to allow more time for the ligaments to heal or should I let him move around freely?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Tape the Primaries together over the small of his back...smallish Cage...confine for a few weeks so ligaments etc can heal without inadvertent worsening from strain or indulging flying re-action modes.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks again!

Some more pictures... enough for today. I think he is getting annoyed having his butt exposed to the camera.

Here you can see how it all comes out. Very hard to keep it all clean.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AB,



Okay...very helpful seeing these images.

he had a second injury then up above the Vent area also? On his Tummy?


Phil
Lv


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't understand? The tummy is bellow his vent. I don't think there is anything wrong with his tummy. Pictures are deceiving. Perhaps you are seeing some abrasions and irritation from intensive cleaning; I don't know.

I do think there was a substantial internal injury to his butt. As I mention earlier, only a several of his tail feathers are growing back and they are all deformed and crooked. It seems, as Dr Pinly said, that his rear was squashed or something. We don't exactly know how and what happened; we have to deal with what is in front of us. I've said already most of this and it seems I've been just repeating myself. 

Otherwise, Union Square has been very alert and in good spirits all this time. He is very healthy in spite of all of this.

Here is my rough drawing based on what Dr. Pinly drew for me on a piece of paper as he was explaining the Union's situation in his office after he had closely examined him. Anyway, this is how I best understand and remember it. It makes sense. We were there 3 times.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

More likely he had been chewed by a Dog.

I have had them who had been...all the rear area was like 'Hamburger'...the ones I have had, the Vents were somehow alright.

In some Cases, no Tail ever grew Back, even though in all cases, everything healed beautifully and all new skin grew and covered everything, and feathered out perfectly.


So, no Tail, or but a couple Tail feathers growing back, is in that Ball Park.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Ante, just want to say you are doing a wonderful thing for this poor pidge! I really admire your willingness to stay with this guy and do the right thing! I cannot imagine how I'd deal with such an injury. Hopefully, as admirably as you have!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

doveone52 said:


> Ante, just want to say you are doing a wonderful thing for this poor pidge! I really admire your willingness to stay with this guy and do the right thing! I cannot imagine how I'd deal with such an injury. Hopefully, as admirably as you have!



I'll second that!


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks! I appreciate that. I am sure both of you would do at least the same. I can't see how could anyone let down a wild young character like this:


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

That's a great Picture!


Wow...very nice Portrait..!


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

He is gorgeous, isn't he? Let's hope that it is he because I don't know how would she be able to lay eggs.

You know, one doesn't realize how vital this organ is until something like this happens.

My biggest concern right now is the surgery. I am not sure if it is going to help or make things worse. It is going to be a tough decision...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well, he really doesn't have much hope without the surgery. Pretty little bird.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I am afraid you might be right. In a few days we'll be done with the medication. Soon after that, we'll have to take a subway ride uptown to meet with the doctor again and see what he thinks at this point.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

ante bezanich, I just want to thank you for all you are doing for Union Square. I was visiting Union Square the day before you found him...luckily it wasn't me who found him, since I live in Arizona and had to go home the next day!! (I did stop a child from stepping on a pigeon while I was there, though.....right in front of the childs Mother!!) That bird is so cute, just look at that face!! I sure hope he is a he, so there won't be further complications. Keep up the good work, we are all rooting for Union Square to get well!


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks, Pigeonlove! I hope you had a pleasant time in this overcrowded neighborhood.

Hey, maybe the child who you saw stepping on a pigeon stepped on this one a few weeks earlier. Humans, of all ages can be wicked. There is a quote for this child's mother by Bradly Millar: "Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is as valuable to the child as it is to the caterpillar."


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> Thanks, Pigeonlove! I hope you had a pleasant time in this overcrowded neighborhood.
> 
> Hey, maybe the child who you saw stepping on a pigeon stepped on this one a few weeks earlier. Humans, of all ages can be wicked. There is a quote for this child's mother by Bradly Millar:* "Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is as valuable to the child as it is to the caterpillar."*





Ain't that the truth.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I hope he is a Male...thus no 'Egg' Laying challenges to await...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe someone should find out first, whether it be a male or a female, before putting the poor bird through surgery, and then there is the price of the surgery.


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I think we may have a problem. It seems that there is an egg inside of Union Square. I can see and feel oval and smooth hard mass about the size of a pigeon egg on the right side of her abdomen, right below the leg and above the end of the keel bone. Could this be something else? I am going to try to make an appointment with the vet ASAP since I think this may be an emergency situation. What do you people think?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, glad to hear Union Square is still with us. Well it could be an egg, but most times a hen will need something to trigger her to cycle, petting and/or cuddling her, a mate or even a male in another cage near by. Could also be a tumor or it could also be an encapsulated mass of infection. She will need to go back to the clinic for assessment, please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Or, there was a rupture and some other debris has accumulated inside the abdominal cavity and you're looking at needing to evacuate by way of abdominal surgery. Ever read this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/ruptured-oviduct-a-case-history-10686.html

Pidgey


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## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, the doctor thinks that the oval mass which I've been seeing and feeling is part of his viscera. Since there is no any feather on her abdomen, internal parts are more visible and pronounced. I am sorry about panicking. I hope the doctor is right. I'll be watching that this thing doesn't get any bigger. By the way, I was looking at it wrong way; it is on her left side, not the right side. In any case, it is very unlikely that this is an egg, which is what I originally thought; Union Square is just too young. 

Otherwise, she is doing OK. I wanted to write the exact doctor's description of the surgery and the outcome of it from a piece of paper that he gave me, but I misplaced it (I'll probably find it when I'm not looking for it). Basically, the vent could not be restored. The artificial fistula which was formed after the injury was made slightly bigger. I gradually stopped feeding her the baby formula and now she is mostly eating pigeon seeds and grit on her own with some addition of soaked vegetarian dog pellets. I have to assist her using a smooth rectal thermometer and clean her every couple of hours but things are passing through all right. 

Pidgey, thank you for the link!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Ante, thanks for the update. If you do find the information you misplaced, please post it. Outside of that, please keep up the good work and keep us informed.

Karyn


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