# china's long distance race



## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

hi, 

got this info from another forum:

http://www.pipa.be/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4668

i think it can be brutal for our pigeons to race that extreme distance. 2000 km is about 1250 miles.


kalapati


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Here we go. More stupid things we do to these birds. If you want to call a 1250 mile juant that took 13 days to accomplish, a race.........well that ain't what I call it. All you got was a few birds smart enough to figure out how to survive on their own for 13 days and have the will and want to, to get home. What do you think happened to the others?  
What do you suppose their race speed was? How utterly silly. 
Oh, I didn't finish reading the stupidity. *4434* birds were in the race and *96 BIRDS MADE IT HOME ALREADY!! HOW VERY GRAND!! *
That leaves 4338 birds unaccounted for. SICK!!


----------



## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

You are right Renee . . . it's not even a marathon, its a survival course.


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

This is so sad - 4338 good birds, who were trained and fed and cared for, then sent on such a difficult mission that almost 98% of them died. What a horrible waste of life and potential!


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

I have had a day bird from 600 miles away double that and its two days not 13 wow It is sad though that so many are risked just for bragging rights.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Matt D. said:


> I have had a day bird from 600 miles away double that and its two days not 13 wow It is sad though that so many are risked just for bragging rights.


No corrections are needed Matt, please don't take the focus off what is going on here....the FACT that this was a case of cruelty on large scale. Anyone invloved has no respect for life and don't give a darn about their birds.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

*OK Guys and Gals alike,

As I understand it this section of Pigeon-Talk is for Homing and Racing pigeons right?*

Now there will always be bad races in every season some with more losses than others. It's a simple fact of life in this sport, sometimes your going to have heavy loses no matter how well you prepare. We do what we can to avoid the worst of it but sometimes, well the poop hits the fan.

Now with that said seems to me what is the real question here?

What do you believe should be the longest race a pigeon Should be flown too? Youngbird? Yearling? and Old birds? and for those who wish to respond explain why you believe there whould be any limitation except that placed by the owner of the bird.

I get the impression that some on the site don't believe we should race our birds at all........... am I right? or am I not understanding the points that have been made. For all those who believe we should not expose our birds to racing may I suggest checking out the great section on this site for show birds only!

Simple fact is that the old distance bloods from right here in the US used to fly over a 1000mi for races, I've even read of races of 1500 mi. Sometimes with great loses and other times with only a few. Just like on the short hard races people........ 

As I recall it was Warren who said at one point in another link, (and I'll para phrase it) If your not willing to send your birds because you may loose them or you think it too hard of a race. You might want to think about getting into another sport.......... your not doing the sport of racing pigeons or your own specific blood lines any good by babying them. (cant believe I just quoted Warren, sky must be falling in...  )

Course now if your only here to promote bird rescues and such please say so.... that way we will all know to whom and what it is we are talking too....... 

Heck even the million dollar race out of South Africa had a bad race this last year (course that race carries with it a very large purse, not just bragging rights). Matter of fact I dont know too many places even here in the US that did not have to contend with sometimes severe weather patterns. Some that caused some very tough races even at the short distances (less than 300 mi.)

*Again, there will always be bad races in every season some with more losses than others. It's a simple fact of life in this sport, sometimes your going to have heavy loses no matter how well you prepare. No one wants to lose their birds and we do what we can to avoid the worst of it, but sometimes, well the poop hits the fan.*

Lawman


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Lawman,

I don't have a problem with the responsible racers, who know what they are doing as you do your best to ensure your birds are in optimum shape and training to make the journey.

I'm talking about the quality and quantity of birds that go a race of this distance, (or any race...for that matter) that aren't in shape or trained and don't have the blood lines required to take on such an enormous challenge.

There is a reason so many are lost and it is not always the weather or predators. There are many people who are rehabbing those lost and injured birds and are overwhelmed with it.

Every racer should ask themselves also....If you have any doubt about your birds abilities/health/and training, and have doubts as to whether they are ready to meet such a challenge.... then don't.

I know you and our other member/racers don't have to ask such questions, you are not what I'm talking about.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Young birds should not be over raced as this reduces there future vigor. 1 depending on strain base line the birds maturing rate as some strains did not come into full growth and abilty until there 3rd year. So knowing the foundation line helps. I say young bird racing is really not a real need and perhaps better results would come into play with less pushing the young birds. BUT the sport promote this And clubs push it. Yearlings raced light go on to become better old bird racers. young to the 300. yearlings the same and old birds any distance you feel they can handle. Some used to say over raced young birds were not used for the breeding program as they were not allowed to develop But agin the sport promotes racing. You have to look at weather also when temps are hotter should the birds be raced. Some say yes some not. When temps are above 85 degrees racing the birds over 200 miles you get more lost birds and more stressed birds. Racing young birds in the middle of the moult gets more lost birds. It goes both ways on racing establish racing that promotes the birds health over wins reduce back to shorter seasons that take into account the moult the heat/weather for the region. And better birds will win. more lofts will have to breed less flyers to over come lost birds. NOW this sounds good but I do not think it will happen. I know and anybody who races shows or competes knows Just a small number of birds raised each year are the top loft birds on racing pigeons they are tested in the sky Each person has there plan some good ,some bad. It takes years to develop a good loft We see more lost birds in large numbers taday more then in the past. Is it cell towers. radar, more hawks, Sun spots. ITS something that needs reseaerched AND perhaps A new line of race birds that can deal with our future It is harder to predict some of the problems the birds are having today. Future breeding will give some kind of answers in the next say 10 years. This is a world problem. So it says to me sun spots or saomething near that that is upseting the navigation of the racing pigeon Something to think about.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

lawman said:


> *OK Guys and Gals alike,
> 
> As I understand it this section of Pigeon-Talk is for Homing and Racing pigeons right?*
> 
> ...


Lawman, honestly, you could have gone all day without these remarks. They are purely inflammatory (I bit, didn't I?) and so unnecessary.

I primarily rescue pigeons, both feral, show and racing, but I have a tremendous respect for the racing members, yourself included. I have no objection at all to anyone racing pigeons. I have often said on the forum that those of us who rescue sick/injured ferals can do our jobs better because of the many contributions the racing industry has made to pigeons in general. I believe many of the supplies and medicines we use have come about because of the racing groups.

I have no particular comments about this race being discussed because I don't know enough about races to begin with to make a satisfactory response. To me, it seems like a long distance but, again, I simply don't know. I can tell you this - we wind up with many lost racers.

I really wish you would edit your post. Your comments are simply not fair to other members who enjoy reading all the threads in this forum.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

lawman said:


> *OK Guys and Gals alike,
> 
> As I understand it this section of Pigeon-Talk is for Homing and Racing pigeons right?*
> 
> Now there will always be bad races in every season some with more losses than others. It's a simple fact of life in this sport, sometimes your going to have heavy loses no matter how well you prepare.


I agree with you 100%



lawman said:


> We do what we can to avoid the worst of it but sometimes, well the poop hits the fan.


Sending birds 1250 miles from home is NOT "doing what we can to avoid the worst"




lawman said:


> Now with that said seems to me what is the real question here?
> 
> What do you believe should be the longest race a pigeon Should be flown too? Youngbird? Yearling? and Old birds? and for those who wish to respond explain why you believe there whould be any limitation except that placed by the owner of the bird.


Bare in mind that this is MY PERSONAL OPINION and it's what I DO.
Youngbird............250 
Yearling............400
Old bird............500
For the youngbirds and yearlings, again this is just how I race my birds. I'm well aware that youngbirds and yearlings CAN and DO fly farther than 250 and 400.




lawman said:


> I get the impression that some on the site don't believe we should race our birds at all........... am I right? or am I not understanding the points that have been made. For all those who believe we should not expose our birds to racing may I suggest checking out the great section on this site for show birds only!


I expect you are right......but......that's their opinion and they are entitled to it. I don't recall anyone ever coming here and stating that we shouldn't race our birds. If they don't like us racing our birds, then they steer clear of the forum except to ask questions. WE, the fanciers have given ourselves a bad name in this sport. When we have to list race bird after race bird after race bird for adoption because the owner won't make arrangements to get his bird back...........how are they supposed to react? A race bird has a broken wing. "I don't want it back" A race bird has a broken leg. "I don't want it back" You're race bird has been at my house for two weeks and I just captured it. "I don't want it back" The fanciers talk a good game, but many of them don't put thier money where their mouth is. I'm not saying that every single bird has to be shipped home in a box, but why can't a person do the decent thing and pick up the phone and find a fancier near where the bird is and have it picked up? Why can't they respond to a caller who has their bird? Why can't they e-mail them back or call them back? If there are people who think we shouldn't race our birds, a lot of the reason they feel that way is because of the things they see and hear and read. 



lawman said:


> Simple fact is that the old distance bloods from right here in the US *used to fly over a 1000mi *for races, I've even read of races of 1500 mi. Sometimes with great loses and other times with only a few. Just like on the short hard races people........


I guess they USED to do it. I don't know. I'll take your word for it. If I HAD been around in those days, I would have had the same philosophy as I do now. 



lawman said:


> As I recall it was Warren who said at one point in another link, (and I'll para phrase it) If your not willing to send your birds because you may loose them or you think it too hard of a race. You might want to think about getting into another sport.......... your not doing the sport of racing pigeons or your own specific blood lines any good by babying them. (cant believe I just quoted Warren, sky must be falling in...  )


I don't know what Warren said or when Warren said this but since YOU brought it up.......I don't EVER send a bird that I think can't make the trip. Whether it's 150 miles or 550 miles. If the (some of them, not ALL of them) liberators would take the BIRDS into consideration it would help a lot.  For some stupid reason, they think that just because the birds went down the road they MUST be released. A few weeks ago we had a race from Alabama. I didn't know and as far as I know, nobody else knew about the tropical storm until after we shipped birds on Thurs. night. So, instead of calling the hauler on Friday and having him stop where he was and GPS the location and release the bird, they allowed him to go all the way to the race station and still put those birds up BEHIND the storm, instead of shortening the race and putting them up in front of it. We wound up having to have a 3 day race because of the rain and wind and the birds couldn't get home. I realize that there will be hard races and the weather is unpredictable at times and things can go wrong, but there's a difference in it happening and you having no control over it and you LETTING it happen when it could have been avoided. I don't call that babying the birds. I call that giving a living creature, that you've raised, medicated, fed, trained for months a decent damn chance to get home!! 



lawman said:


> Course now if your only here to promote bird rescues and such please say so.... that way we will all know to whom and what it is we are talking too.......


I do believe this forum was probably started way back when for this very purpose. If I'm wrong, someone correct me. It was probably after the fact that someone came along and asked for a section for race birds. So, I do believe that the majority of our members ARE here to rescue and I commend them for that. There's no reason why the "racing folks" can't have a decent conversation about what we do. I steer clear of the rescues, unless I'm sure I know what I'm talking about and the "rescuers" for the most part steer clear of this forum. 



lawman said:


> No one wants to lose their birds and we do what we can to avoid the worst of it, but sometimes, well the poop hits the fan.[/B]


Now after all that, I don't think I said what I felt the problem with the 1250 China race was.
IMO...........a race that is an overnight race INTENTIONALLY is no longer a race. By intentionally I mean that there's very little if any chance that the bird can fly the distance in a day. What's so special about a bird that can fly all day, not make it home, sit in a tree or on a church or where ever they spend the night, rest, and then get up the next day and go on home.?? What makes that a race? What makes a 1250 miles "race" that takes two weeks to get home a RACE?? That's not a race. That's just a few good birds that happen to make it. What about the other 3000 plus birds? What happened to them? AGAIN.....is that what's called "doing what we can to avoid the worst"??? I don't think so. 
I know that even on a 150 mile race, there will be birds that don't come home until the next day or maybe not at all. If the bird is healthy and fit, then that's on the bird. IF the fancier has done his job with the birds, at some point, it comes down to what the bird can do. That's why I used the word INTENTIONALLY........
I'm not sure I even said everything I wanted to say, in fact I'm sure I didn't but I'm certainly not going to argue over this.
The put a bird in a basket, ask it to fly 1250 miles, expect it to make it home while having to find food and water for however many days it take it to get home is simply rediculous. Period.
Some said their bird have flown 600 miles in a day so this was just two days worth of flying. It don't work like that.
Let's take Lance Armstrong for instance. He's won the Tour de France a few times. Do you think he could perform like he does, take a night off and go back the next day and do it again?
Football teams.........could they play a full game of football two nights in a row and still compete at the same level?
A boxer.....could he get in a ring tonight and give his best and with a good nights rest, do it again tomorrow night? I doubt it. I could go on and on, but you get the point. 
AND.......even if these atheletes DO do this.......they do it by choice. Our birds don't have a choice. 
Bottom line is it's asking a lot of your bird to do this and for what? So someone will pat THE FANCIER on the back? I don't get it and you'll never make me understand it.


----------



## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

1250 miles is way to far to have any bird trying to get back home. To me it's not a race, it's more like survival of the fittest, and it's just plain cruel and uncalled for. I doubt if most of these birds will ever come home to there lofts. Most of them most likely ended up dead from starving to death, killed by predators, or are sick somewhere with no one to help them. It's a dirty rotten shame that someone would put there their birds through this.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

*OK GUYS AND GALS.*

I've had my own run ends with so called re-habers here in California........ The experience was not pleasurable....... fact is so far as I am concerned they straight up stole the bird in question.

The incident occurred a couple of years back and at the time my brother and I were flying a combined team from his residence. We got a phone call two days after the race from a Vet. Saying he had treated one of our birds. This occurred at approx. 9am, the bird had been struck by a Hawk and was expected to survive, and per the vet the bird would probably not race again but should have made a complete recovery (more on this in a moment). One of his employees knew and dealt with a local re-haber and they allowed this re-haber to take the bird back to their location. I had called them and found this out at approx. 3pm and immediately began attempting to contact the re-haber. 

Two days went by and no return phone calls, I recontacted the Vet. He apologized and contacted them on my behalf. After two more days went by with no return phone call, I again contacted the Vet. He was again very apologetic, this time he stated the so called re-haber was refusing to even return his calls. I was given the re-habers name and phone number. 

It took me introducing myself as a police officer (which I am by the way) before she would answer the phone, even then she stated the bird had died and even if it had not, I would never see the bird again. She then began trying to read me the riot act because I dared be involved in the sport. 

So if you will all pardon my mistrust, she did not do any re-habers any favors. Over the years the Vet. had sent many injured racing pigeons to this particular so called re-haber, to the best of my knowledge no owner ever received them back. Before it was all done the Vet. fired his assistant and the re-haber is now out of business.

The race in question was a 200 mi race. 

I still have yet to see my bird back!

Now I know not all re-habers conduct them selves in this fashion any more than all fanciers send sick birds to races, Ect. Ect. As I stated sometimes the poop just hits the fan. But it sure leaves a bad taste in your mouth having to deal with those who are not on the up and up……. 

Lawman


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

littlestar said:


> 1250 miles is way to far to have any bird trying to get back home. To me it's not a race, it's more like survival of the fittest, and it's just plain cruel and uncalled for. I doubt if most of these birds will ever come home to there lofts. Most of them most likely ended up dead from starving to death, killed by predators, or are sick somewhere with no one to help them. It's a dirty rotten shame that someone would put there their birds through this.



Ok Little star, 

If 1250 mi. is to long, what do you believe is the longest race that should be flown?

Over the years I've had many birds that could do 600 mi. in a day with no problem. Mind you I went into the military and was out of pigeon racing for almost 15 years. So far my current bloodlines have not been able to do so. But how do I know if they can do the distance if I do not send them?

I personnely am not content to simply fly to the 300-350 mi. mark where most combines stop for the youngbird series and cut off the short series for old birds. 

Now mind you I would not send a youngbird to a 600, but by the time they are 2-3 years of age they should at least be able to go the distance. 

As for me the 500-600 miles races are what sepparate the shaft from the wheat. Even a short distance speed bird should be able to home from these distances. It is my belief that if they cannot then they are loosing their homing ability and it will not be long before you begin having massive loses from your loft even on short races. 

It is my belief that this is what has occurred here in the US and is at least in part why we seem to see more and more loses on the short races.

Lawman


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi lawman,

In regards to the rehabber that stole your bird, you're NOT going to find anyone like that HERE on the forum. They do their utmost best to return the bird to its owner. That is a responsiblity we take seriously. The problem for most has been that the owner does not take his/her resposnsibility to come and get the bird-to even respond, or says "keep it" and that is what is done. There are bad apples in every basket.

Anyway, the point is plain and simple here, we do not condone any kind of cruelty and I consider cruelty to be anything intentionally done to a bird or animal-that can jeopardize their life, racing pigeons is not cruel, but it can become cruel when birds are expected to do marathon flights they haven't been properly trained for, or not equipped physically for and not in optimum health.

In Europe the amount of wild/feral pigeon population has become staggering, and added to their number is now the racing pigeons that are lost, it is becoming a real problem everywhere, and those issues need to be addressed, and unfortunately they are addressed with negative/cruel results in a lot of instances. The lost racing pigeons just adds to the burdens of all rehabbers who are overwhelmed in numbers of unwanted rehabbed racing pigeons. 

Here is the U.S. it is also becoming quite a problem. I am also owner of adopted unwanted racing pigeons, they are among my own number.


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Lawman,

I am really sorry you had that experience with a rehabber. Unfortunately people's attitudes are formed from experiences they have had. I have a good friend who is a rehabber and I know she tries to get the birds back to their owners if at all possible. The majority of racer owners just say they don't want it back, or in the case of one bird last year, "I'ts no good to me now, I'm just going to kill it". I don't know if the rehabber you dealt with had such negative experiences with owners, but I bet she did and decided to not let birds go to unknown fates after she had worked hard to pull them through injuries. It sounds like she went totally overboard and painted all owners with the same brush. There are good rehabbers out there just as there are good owners with the birds best interests in mind.

Margarret


----------



## abisai (Jan 30, 2007)

*way I see it*

A race is a race. It may be for Y/B, O/B or whatever. If the race is as Renee says, "intentionally' made to last more than one day , then I don't see it as a race (for reasons already mentioned). As far as Rehabbers and Racers - It depends on who you come across. I have heard fanciers say "I don't breed from lost birds", or "I don't keep birds who constantly lose" - ok, don't keep 'em. Then what are you gonna do with them if they belong to you? I understand the fancier is out to win races - after all he/she spends time, money and energy in the sport. But you can't just cast aside a bird who doesn't meet your expectations?

The rehabber on the other hand, is concerned with - whats gonna happen to this wayward bird, or the one who lost? Does he/she let the bird go by way of the Greyhound who doesn't race anymore? So rehabbers attempt to pick up the slack by nurturing and placing birds in adoptive homes.

There are a lot of good fanciers and rehabbers (and some who are both) on this forum who do the best for the interest of the sport and the birds . . . and I seriously take my hat off to them.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

OK all, 

I for one joined this forum in the belief that I was sharing information with others who raced as well.......

Perhaps I'm about to use a broad brush again but you all are sounding more like animal rights activists than racers. 

Which by the way is what I found the one rehaber to be........ and from some of the responses sounds very much like who is responding now.

So pray tell what do any of you think is the max distance that the birds should be flown in a single day and why?

As I stated when I was younger I possessed birds that could and did on a consistant basis complete the 600 mi races in a single day. Now understand two days are concidered in most combines as well as in the AU and the IF to still be a valid race for the distance. 

I've also seen 200 mi races due to no fault of anyone take two days to complete, so pray tell what is the max distance any of you will send your birds?

Also understand that I do not condone the intentional abuse of any animal. But you all need to understand I grew up on a farm where we raised what we ate, vegi's and animal alike. So unlike many who grew up in cities getting their meat and/or meat by products off of a shelf I learned at an early age exactly where those products came from and what had to be done to obtain them. 

I have no problem with taking the life of any animal so long as it is done properly and without any undue pain to the animal in question. For instance an animal who is dieing slowly due to old age, or one that has been so severly hurt that it cannot be saved. Or for that matter one that is to be processed for comsuption. 

It is part of the "circle of life" that has been since the begining of know time.

Lawman


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Everyone take a deep breath...please*

Law Man !

What did you do ? I take my eye off this forum for a little bit and when I check back...there is a 10-34 in progress ! 

As members of the Homing and Racing Community, it was our community who rolled up the sleeves, and provided the pigeons and manpower in order to insure victory during WWII with our pigeons. Many of our readers would not be here today, or may be speaking German, had it not been for the homing pigeon fancy. We were also the ones supplying the US and Coalition Forces, during the early stages of the 1st and 2nd Iraq War, when racing pigeons were provided, to insure our Troops over there were not being subjected to chemical or biological attack. 

We do not have to justify our sport or our hobby, and we do not have to defend ourselves to this "pigeon talk" community. The entire pigeon faternity, benifits from the hundreds of thousands of dollars which are funneled into the various programs, funded entirely by the racing communinty. 

So, Law Man, go into the back yard, enjoy the birds, and don't stress over some of our wonderful, pro pigeon people. There are some people that value pigeons over people, I like their passion...but I could not choose a pigeon....even over what may be a real butt head. 

And Law Man, there are well meaning people, that will never appreciate, what we do, and you will never convince them otherwise...except have people get sore at each other.....

And you rehabbers, and animal right's people....if you keep chasing off, even your supporters...pretty soon, you won't have any more readers or fanciers left to disagree with....There are about 18,000 racing pigeon fanciers just in the USA, which don't give these pages a second look...because at times, racing pigeon owners get treated quite harshly here at times....so why take the abuse ?

May I suggest, that now everyone give the one next to you...a BIG HUG....and let's not fight amongest ourselves.  Since we are already such a tiny minority...would be more productive to go win over some friends to this hobby. Rather then pointing out the splinter in my brother's eye.  



Now...you have seen everything.....me....sticking up for the Law Man !!


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And Law Man, there are well meaning people, that will never appreciate, what we do, and you will never convince them otherwise...except have people get sore at each other.....


My thoughts exactly. Lawman asked a question, we answered and he didn't like the answer. I'll never change his mind and he'll never change mine. So, let's just leave it at that. Does this thread need to be locked also? Fine by me, cause I'm done with it!


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Not wanting to beat a dead horse but, Warren, did you read my post? I am a rehabber, as you know, and firmly believe I wouldn't have access to all the supplies, medicine, even knowledge of pigeons, were it not for the racing folks. I LOVE reading the racing forum even though I know so little about the sport. 

So, yes, lets take a deep breath....I'll even hug you Warren and you know we don't always see eye to eye.


----------



## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Lawman,,,
You made a very brave statement amongst a group who mostly don't want to hear the other side.. 
I havn't posted in almost a year for that very reason. And thats fine,, I see both sides for the most part,, there are those who really need this forum for help and they get it.. Most folks who live in apartments and the like have a new lease on life when a pigeon comes there way and needs there assistance. And for that,, I applaud those here that are willing to put in the extra time to see to it they get all the knowledge availabe,,
But,, on the other hand,, it can also get out of hand and can turn pretty ugly if anyone even mentions certain words,,, those would be your animal rights activist,, they don't see the word "Conservation" the way it should be understood,, someday it will be to their own birds demise if they don't fully get it....and I think you are a lucky man to have not gone thru the gauntlet of grief from those on here that don't see things in the same light.
I am so glad to have seen Warrens post,, He said things much better than I would have said them had I posted previous to his.
Now,, all that being said,, I couldn't just let you take a stand all alone,,, I fully understand where you are coming from,, the sad part is what "Lovebirds" stated. (and I like Lovebirds) I really do,,, but,,, just because you don't agree,,, does that mean a post should be closed?,,, I think not...
I truely believe everyone has a right to voice their opinion,,, even if its an uneducated opinion,, but,,, I also believe after you have stated such,, it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself into the history of the (in this case) Long distance bird racing... Most people don't breed for the long distance anymore because it takes much more training,, a different type of training,, and a different type of bird that is in this day and age on the decline.
There was a time when we raced 1000 miles with a much different type of bird than the sprint birds we see so much today.. And just for the record LOVE BIRDS,,, It wasn't anymore cruel than the type of races that you race,,, Like I said,, they are a totally different type of bird,, and trained much differently and very capable of coming home in 2 days and on occasion,, maybe 3 days...
Thats my POV...
Gary H..
p.s. carry on my good men/women,,, you all have a job to do and do it most excellently.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I appreciate everyone's input here, and I thought the discussion was going well, but I guess I'm mistaken. 

The thread does not need to be closed as long as the discussion doesn't get out of control and members are respectful of each other.


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello everyone,

I have never been one to stand by and be quite on an issue I believe in. Thank you Warren and Royaltypigeon you both said it better than I could. I have never been accussed of being politically correct.  

In law enforcement we have a saying that I have always found to be true, I think it applies here.

If it walks, talks and acts like a duck, then it must be a duck.

I'll let everyone decide for themselves if they are looking at a duck or not (it's a analogy for those who don't understand). 

As for myself I could not just stand by and be silent on this issue. To do so would be to agree with those who would shut down racing forever......... and lets face it that is the ultimate goal of the activists......... they start by trying to shut down the long distance races, anything over a day......... But if anyone thinks they will stop there, you are sadly mistaken......... if you give them a foothold they will eventually outlaw racing pigeons or even possessing pigeons forever............

If you need an example then simply look at Chicago. Ask those fliers how it felt to be totally shut down because of a fancier (who to the best of my knowledge had show birds only).

Lawman


----------



## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Treesa,
I truely understand your POV. 
And I didn't mean at all to stray from what this forum really is all about. But,,,
The Lawman brought up an important differing view point that shouldn't be dismissed by hiding ones head in the sand and just hoping it will go away.
What Warren mentioned was also very important,, I don't need to go back and reveiew all He stated,,,
The only problem here is that something drastic happened,, and we here in the states havn't a clue what it was. If we sent our birds out to a 1000 mile race and only 5 percent of those birds came home... Our heads would be in our hands wondering what in the H happened,, Where did we screw up?
As a racer,, we always look at our own management style first,, then we go from there,, What was the weather like,, should they have been released?,, Like I said,, We havn't a clue what really happened on that particular day in China,, good grief...
The only thing I see wrong here is,,, 
Number One: Someone wanted to get everyone panties in a wad,,,,
Makes for good discussion,,, 
Number two.. Let the herd mentality begin,, everyone who can have an opinion,, speak forth and have his/her way,,, 
That is why The Lawman had finally said,,, wait a minute,, enough already...
get my point?,,, sort of? I hope so,,, cause,,, I really do enjoy this forum on occasion...
Gary H.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Gary,

I have absolutely nothing but respect for you members who do right by your birds, and have said that.....I'm talking about those that don't. You guys are not the issue here...it's a weather phenomina, poor training....whatever...etc. okay...done...No one is trying to shut down racing either.....just want be realistic here.

Let's not stick our heads in the sand and totally ignore the number of lost/injured and ever climbing number of racing pigeons that have become major problem in urban areas along with our feral friends. There is a real ISSUE and it needs to be addressed, but not here....and it isn't going away either.

I will close this thread if anyone " who gets their panties in a wad" and resolves the issue by being diss-respectful in anyway to any of our members. That is it, I'm done.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*I've Been Meaning To Ask ..*

Please see this post from Warren: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=187245&postcount=10

In it he states:


> The 100,000 + that the racing fancy releases back to the wild every year, maintains and impacts, a certain level of genectic quality on the feral colony.


I'm wondering if the 100,000 number is a "real" number based on information compiled by the AU or another organization or just a number tossed out as part of the discussion in that thread.

If there are, in fact, 100,000 or more racing pigeons "lost" each year, that's a staggering number to me.

Just curious about this.

Terry


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

I could be mistaken, but I don't think there would be any feral pigeons in the USA, if it were not for the pigeon fancy. The feral colony out there today, is the result of pigeons released into the wild, since the rock dove is not native to North America. 

The 100,000 number I used in a previous thread, is simply my own uneducated estimate of the minimum impact the racing fancy has on the feral population. Taking the number of dues paying members in the racing community, and then doing some math. The 100,000 number may even be grossly underestimated. I mean if 18,000 members only lose 10 pigeons a season, then that would be 180,000 birds. Some do get injured, or die from the elements....I believe the vast majority simply become part of the feral community. No way of really proving my case, but just a guess. 

At any rate, the feral population is, what it is.....I don't think even the most radical pro pigeon person would suggest that we catch all these ferals and give them a home, anymore then we should round up any other bird. Realistically, I don't think anyone will completely solve the lost pigeon issue, any more then the feral cat population will get fixed anytime soon. A very large percentage of pet owners in the USA are just not responsible. Heck, even many parents of children are not responsible, so why would people who own and care for pigeons be any real different then your typical dog or cat owner ? 

One might even make a case, that lost racing pigeons have helped improve the feral colony, by introducing physically superior, breeding age members into the colony. 

At any rate, the discussion of lost pigeons, did not start here, and will not end here.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the reply, Warren. Like I said, I was just curious about the number. 

Terry


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I raised pigeons for a number of years I have been active in clubs and racing and showing. Both show birds and race birds just can not breed quality birds each round. A person say raises 100 birds. SAY 5 are top for the year say 15 might be good enough to pass down 80 are lower to poor quality. Small numbers to build off. NOw race birds get passed off with paper by the many people that want a buck or two. That I do fault as a week link in many areas of pigeon racing Here in the U S. Plus pushing new members to fly as soon as they can get the birds in the air. It takes years to improve a loft. Racing people NOT all but many change birds like some people change cloths. Because they worry to much about winning. Pigeon raising is a art And any good artist takes there time. PIGEON keeping is a great hobby. As long as we help new comers. promote the chosen breed. Try to each year improve the loft. Sell only useable birds That help others. WINNING a race is not important at all. Breeding winners that is the art. It means we must strive each year to set down the pairs that best brings together a chance of producing a better bird or at least a bird that continues to help improve the loft. Years ago depending on the race a 600 mile race was a 2 to 3 day raise for many areas. Now days it is a day race thanks to the effert of quality breeders.I do think wanting to win have more races then a club really needs not pulling together as a large combine or state races to have a better chance in getting a win Many are guilty of this. The old saying if you want to play with the big boys you have to be able to compete with the big boys. THAT means set the birds down each year breed them the best you can Never run and buy and buy Your wasting your time and money. THOSE birds fl;y well for that person because that person bred them right. LEARN what you can from the best develop the minds eye remember it will be years making a loft Take the time. Its not about racing or showing Its about you and your birds. Defend if you may understand if you will BUT I know and many do also There is a need for some change in the racing area To develop the lofts and respect that YOU sell or give away only qualty birds YOu help new members to learn and become the future You send birds that are race ready And you enter the race hoping for a win but learn alot each race even if your bird is last. Distance Research of each strain in that past shows breeding Changing that develops new Strains Your name not ardens. janssen ludos, ect They were your base foundation each loft breeds different Controled families are the history the proof that THOSE birds win MUtts may win as youngbirds But proper bred birds will win as young birds yearlings and old birds for years and years. FADS have no place in the loft I know I went off line some BUt to a point not really we have jumped out to protect and defended racing. Those that race know Today is much different then the past Many birds get lost world wide. Something is going on. But the untold part of the sport is greed, poor losers. Lack of understanding the breed Calling a bird say a sion long after Sion was not only gone but No true way the bird would even be close to a sion bred bird. Call it a racing pigeon. Racing homer as the birds were called years ago. call it your last name. Put your mark on the birds you will be remembered years down the road. Anybody remember morris gorden. His birds did very well distance birds to. He flew young birds. BUT he chose not to breed off the young bird team as he felt pushing young birds hard set them back and made them poor breeders. Why because they were still developing still growing. Remember a gordan best perfoms as a third year bird. Full adult. Many of these breeds Do the same. I new people that the goverment camae to the loft during WW 2 and took birds with the statement that any birds left after the war would be returned. the birds did not return from the war to the loft. Pigeons did save lives. We could learn so much from just relizing pigeon keeping is a hobby to enjoy and strive to improve the sport through the birds raised and respect that each bird sold would be a bird you would be willing to breed from if needed. Not a paped bird that would get lost flying around the block. How hundreds of racing people sell those types of birds each year.


----------

