# Hunter looking for pigeons on craigslist



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

This guy is trying to get pigeons for his hunting dogs. Please flag to remove his post!!!! 
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/grd/2058093197.html


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

I e-mailed him asking


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I flagged it but I don't think they will understand why it's flagged, as he didn't state the purpose he wants the pigeons, in his ad.


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

I know, unfortunately he is going to do what he is going to do, but I'd at least like to make it a bit more difficult for him. Nothing else I can really do.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I went in to flag it, and this is what I found.



This posting has been flagged for removal. [?]
(The title on the listings page will be removed in just a few minutes.)


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Yep, when enough people flag a post, the post gets removed. 
He has already posted another one trying again if you don't mind flagging this one. 
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/grd/2058966141.html

His email conversation with me:
[email protected]
"I'm using them for personal use. I don't need anything fancy just a few homers for training purposes. Will be used for steadying pointing dogs"


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

Might as well just ignore it because the guy is going to get them one way or another. As a pigeon lover as well as a hunter, I dont choose to train my dogs by this method, but many do and have for many of years, and will continue to for years.
They usually look for pigeons that people have in the barns, sheds etc. as nuisances (that usually get shot), so imo it would be like flagging a add for a person to exterminate bee's because you have bee's as pets.


----------



## ValencianFigs (Jul 10, 2010)

Knoc is right. I was on another forum looking at pigeon coop designs and it was a dog training forum. They were talking about getting like 300 of them from an "infested" barn. So flagging them will give them a hard time but they have their ways.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think people should mind their own business. If those were your pigeons, then maybe you have business of flagging it because you don't want your birds treated that way. If not, then as Knoc said "it would be like flagging an add for a person to exterminate bee's because you have bee's as pets". Nevertheless, I don't like sports where they have to kill animals just for fun or sports. Hunting for food I agree with it. Hunting for sports I don't like it.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RodSD said:


> *I think people should mind their own business. *If those were your pigeons, then maybe you have business of flagging it because you don't want your birds treated that way. If not, then as Knoc said "it would be like flagging an add for a person to exterminate bee's because you have bee's as pets". Nevertheless, I don't like sports where they have to kill animals just for fun or sports. Hunting for food I agree with it. Hunting for sports I don't like it.



Good thing not every one thinks like you. Using birds that way is just wrong, and people have a right to speak up.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, but flagging at that site, as I understand it, is when it violates the terms of agreements of that site and not some beliefs of other people.

I am different. I look at both sides. And I know that there are birds that are used for different purposes whether we like it or not, for example, utility pigeons.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RodSD said:


> Yeah, but flagging at that site, as I understand it, is when it violates the terms of agreements of that site and not some beliefs of other people.
> 
> I am different. I look at both sides. And I know that there are birds that are used for different purposes whether we like it or not, for example, utility pigeons.


I don't think that it is quite the same as using them for food. Do you?


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> I don't think that it is quite the same as using them for food. Do you?


Whats the difference between this and a mouse trap? People have mice as pets too, so does that mean they should throw a big hoopla over people trapping mice in their house? Some people dont want pigeons in their barns and sheds, just like people dont want mice. So would it be more justified if there were death traps setup in peoples barns and sheds instead? Or for the pigeons to actually get some use? 
I understand both sides of the argument, but I agree that people should just mind their own business when it comes to stuff like this. Flagging someones post simply because you dont agree with it is just stupid. Now if hunters were going into peoples lofts and stealing them, then sure, I would be against it, but they are buying these most likely nuisance pigeons, so whatever they want to do with them, is really up to them.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Knoc said:


> Whats the difference between this and a mouse trap? People have mice as pets too, so does that mean they should throw a big hoopla over people trapping mice in their house? Some people dont want pigeons in their barns and sheds, just like people dont want mice. So would it be more justified if there were death traps setup in peoples barns and sheds instead? Or for the pigeons to actually get some use?
> I understand both sides of the argument, but I agree that people should just mind their own business when it comes to stuff like this. Flagging someones post simply because you dont agree with it is just stupid. Now if hunters were going into peoples lofts and stealing them, then sure, I would be against it, but they are buying these most likely nuisance pigeons, so whatever they want to do with them, is really up to them.






Well then...mind your own business and those of us that see differently will do what we can to stop the jerk...
FYI...there isn't such a thing as a nuisance pigeon and objecting to cruelty isn't stupid.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Well then...mind your own business and those of us that see differently will do what we can to stop the jerk...
> FYI...there isn't such a thing as a nuisance pigeon and objecting to cruelty isn't stupid.


*AMEN TO THAT!*


----------



## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

If they have a willing seller and a willing buyer. What they do with the birds is up to them as they are there property. The U.S. was built of free to do as yu see fit with your property. To date pigeons are not classed as pets any more than any other game bird. If you feel that wrong then work on changeing the law to have pigeons protected like cats and dogs. Till then what they want to do is legal and they have that right even if some think it not right. The law is on their side.


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Well if you can stand the thought of any bird having their wings broken and chewed on till they die a slow and painful death so a dog can learn to later on "hunt" for their masters "food", then go right ahead and think that. But I, god bless America and their freedom movements, am given the right to flag these jerks. It is a pet sections. He is not looking for pets. You talk about legal rights...couldn't tell ya how it is legal. How is the torture of one species different from another? If it were a parrot everyone would have a field day with this kind of treatment. Who are you to say that because there are more pigeons in the world they deserve that kind of torture? You bring up mouse traps? how is that relevant? Instantly killing an animal to protect the health of your families home vs. brutal handling just to becoming a squeaky toy for some dog? Just to train to further kill more lives for the entertainment of some human...of course...that's so similar. I don't support the killing of any animal but I know people need to eat, and keep vermin out of their houses, but death doesn't have to be torture. especially for some hillbilly's hobby. If people have an over population of pigeons, there are currently many methods to keep that under control. there is even birth control you can give wild flocks. Im sure city funded as well. Only the ignorant cowards turn their back on situations they would just rather not do anything about or think about it. You call your self a pigeon lover? How can you be? pain is pain no matter how you cause it. You can't possibly truly care if you pick and chose what species you think deserves this pain. Yes he is going to do what he is going to do. Just like all of those stupid breeders on that site. Lazy people charging hundreds of dollars for over bred, under cared for pitbulls so they don't have to get a job. And what happens to those puppies. They all end up back in shelters scared neglected and euthanized. Yea, you can not really do anything to stop them, there is no law against it.....but I can sure as hell make it a tiny bit more difficult for them to do it. That whole just ignore it, he's gonna do it anyhow attitude may be just fine for you, but don't look down on those actually making some small insignificant attempt, or even perhaps just a tiny delay on him taking someones prize homers they have raised in their lofts and selling them to someone who can't even out right be honest of their use in his post. If he out right said I want birds to bait my dog with on his post and someone offers their birds, your right I can't do anything about it. But someone who doesn't think to drill about the use of these birds, well then maybe I just saved one single bird. Who knows. Worth a try on my end as a true pigeons lover. Just because it's the law, doesn't mean it's right.


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

Charis said:


> FYI...there isn't such a thing as a nuisance pigeon


Not to us because we love pigeons and have them as pets. But to a majority of the people they are. Its just a fact. No different then if a snake came into my yard. Yeah, Im gonna get the shovel and do work. I HATE snakes. I think they are gross, slimey and disgusting. So does that mean that if I had a exterminator come out to take care of the snakes in my yard, thats a bad thing? And that the exterminator' should have there business cards thrown in the trash and advertising signs defaced by "Snake lovers"? No. You do relize that if you go up to most people in a big city and ask them about the wild pigeons around there, that they will tell you that they are "Gross, icky, smelly, filled with lice, carry diseases, poop all over, etc.."That mean we should jump on there backs because they dont like the animals we like and raise? No. 
Also if you want to bring up animal cruelty than if me and you ever meet, I better not seen leather shoes on you, or on your car seats or see you eating chicken or beef, or any other animal for that matter. I worked at a butcher shop for years and if you think a person catching a pigeon with a net, putting it in a box and later releasing it and letting the dog track it through the reeds is cruel, then you would HATE to see how animals are treated before and while being butchered. 
You guys who are all huffy and puffy about this Im sure dont even have a clue how pigeons are used with dog training. Well I'll fill you in from my experiences of seeing this done. The few times Ive seen this done was pigeons that were bought from a local farm who raised them for this purpose were held in a flying box. When they were released they would kind of non shilontly walk around and sometimes people would clap at them and whistle to get them to move. They would move around through the weeds. A few minutes later a dog would be released and would follow the path up to the pigeon and make it air bound where it would fly away. That is what they are training them to do. Get birds into flight so the hunter can shoot them. They are NOT taught to go and get them and kill them themselves. In the times I went I did NOT see ANY dog or person kill any pigeons. And as a hunter and bird hunter (Pigeon and Grouse) I wouldnt want a dog who did. The dogs are usually taught with a toy bouy before tracking birds to caress the shot/dead bird and bring it back to the hunter. 
So before thinking that these people are sitting around and getting off watching their dogs eat birds for fun like ruthless killers, I suggest ya get the facts.


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

I never said anything about slaughter. People needing to eat is different than sport. Why are you arguing this fact so hard. The joy you have for killing animals is not shared by me. You are pulling up things that are way off topic. Animal torture and killing for sport= wrong. plain and simple.


----------



## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

This isn't the first time we've had this argument, and it always drifts off at tangents.

Let's just keep it simple - the information has been given and people either want to flag these ads or not. If they do, OK, otherwise don't.


----------



## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Sport*



GimpieLover said:


> I never said anything about slaughter. People needing to eat is different than sport. Why are you arguing this fact so hard. The joy you have for killing animals is not shared by me. You are pulling up things that are way off topic. Animal torture and killing for sport= wrong. plain and simple.


 Your right, animal torture is wrong 100% since you are not a hunter and obviously have never seen how this is done, I want to know if you think the birds are better off being pulled feather by feather, limb by limb, by a cooper hawk? It is nature and evolution and now you are here to change it. 
I wonder if in Roman times, you would be the one opening the gates to watch Lions rip a human beings to pieces or you would be the one getting ripped? Get a life and leave people alone and spend more time saving pigeons in Haiti because they rapidly declining. >Kevin


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Lol wow such anger. Is that why you hunt animals? feel bigger?
Where are people going with this? slaughter houses, lions in Rome? haha wow 
Pigeons getting eaten by a cooper hawk...that's the hawk surviving...human hunting....entertainment and pointless. Why do you have to attempt to get mean? Not called for. If you feel threatened by me disagreeing and trying to change things, then go ahead and call that guy and give him some of your birds to hunt. No reason to throw out random accusations. Grow up. really.


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

never in my life have I gotten so much **** for caring about an animals well being before. Honestly. How dare I lol 
Heep hatin, Ill keep savin


----------



## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Hunting*



GimpieLover said:


> Lol wow such anger. Is that why you hunt animals? feel bigger?
> Where are people going with this? slaughter houses, lions in Rome? haha wow
> Pigeons getting eaten by a cooper hawk...that's the hawk surviving...human hunting....entertainment and pointless. Why do you have to attempt to get mean? Not called for. If you feel threatened by me disagreeing and trying to change things, then go ahead and call that guy and give him some of your birds to hunt. No reason to throw out random accusations. Grow up. really.



First off, you are wrong again, I don't hunt. I do feel that people who choose to do so should have the right, I missed the post where John said that if one feels the need to flag something it is also there right to do so. 
Sorry John, this will be the last on this, next time I see a thread on flgging I will simply ingnore it. 
As far as being mean, I truly don't think I was. I believe it was more your perception. As far as your comment on growing up, that is what I was trying to tell you, grow up and leave people alone. This is why people don't get along, there is always somebody telling people how things should truly be under there rule and can't just let life go on. >Kevin


----------



## The_Dirteeone (Apr 18, 2010)

As far as craigslists terms of agreement,look at what they do agreee on.Prostitution,gay dating,I am glad I dont let CL,s determin what I think is right or wrong.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pattersonk2002 said:


> First off, you are wrong again, I don't hunt. I do feel that people who choose to do so should have the right, I missed the post where John said that if one feels the need to flag something it is also there right to do so.
> Sorry John, this will be the last on this, next time I see a thread on flgging I will simply ingnore it.
> As far as being mean, I truly don't think I was. I believe it was more your perception. As far as your comment on growing up, that is what I was trying to tell you, grow up and leave people alone. *This is why people don't get along, there is always somebody telling people how things should truly be under there rule and can't just let life go on. >Kevin*






Those people you talk about that just let life go on and mind their own business, they are the ones that never get anything changed. Cowards see a wrong, and look the other way. And blind men don't even_ see_ the wrong. Which are you?


----------



## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

double post


----------



## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

GimpieLover said:


> never in my life have I gotten so much **** for caring about an animals well being before. Honestly. How dare I lol
> Heep hatin, Ill keep savin


My comments below do not address your opnions on animals. It addresses your stated comments about humans. Notably your use of a derogatory and offensive term to describe folks that are within their constitutional rights to do something they enjoy (hunt).

http://www.serconline.org/huntandfish.html



GimpieLover said:


> especially for some hillbilly's hobby


Hillbilly is a term referring to people who dwell in rural, mountainous areas of the United States, primarily Appalachia. Due to its strongly stereotypical connotations, the term is frequently considered derogatory, and so is usually offensive to those Americans of Appalachian heritage.

You are a bigot. That might sting, but it's the truth. You apparently have animosity towards hunters and have used a derogatory term (hillbilly) to describe them (us). I would suggest you get to know a few hunters and a few "hillbillies."

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

Guess I'm just tired of folks that continue to make slurs against folks in Appalacia. There are lots of decendents of true American Heroes down here.

For the record:

http://www.tngenweb.org/revwar/kingsmountain.html

The Battle of Kings Mountain was a decisive Patriot victory in the Southern campaign of the American Revolutionary War that took place on October 7, 1780. Frontier militia loyal to the United States overwhelmed the Loyalist American militia led by British Major Patrick Ferguson of the 71st Foot. In The Winning of the West, Theodore Roosevelt wrote of Kings Mountain, *"This brilliant victory marked the turning point of the American Revolution."*


----------



## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Neither*



TN_PIGEON said:


> Hillbilly is a term referring to people who dwell in rural, mountainous areas of the United States, primarily Appalachia. Due to its strongly stereotypical connotations, the term is frequently considered derogatory, and so is usually offensive to those Americans of Appalachian heritage.
> 
> You are a bigot. That might sting, but it's the truth. You apparently have animosity towards hunters and have used a derogatory term (hillbilly) to describe them (us). I would suggest you get to know a few hunters.
> 
> A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.


 I like this >Kevin



Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> Those people you talk about that just let life go on and mind their own business, they are the ones that never get anything changed. Cowards see a wrong, and look the other way. And blind men don't even_ see_ the wrong. Which are you?


 #1 (Coward) Far from it, that is why I voice myself against your one sided opinion how people choose to do things in life that are just not your way of doing things. Blind? far from blind, I have seen more in life then you can dream about since your crusade is hell bent on trying to see your mute blind points. Surly there are many things in life i have not, nor do not like, again I resolve myself to letting people live there life as they choose. When they trespass against you then go for it, you now have the right to defend your rights, YOU on the other hand are trespassing on his free will and rights of others. >Kevin


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Definition of cruelty from Free Dictionary...

Cruelty to animals involves the infliction of physical pain or death upon an animal, when unnecessary for disciplinary, instructional, or humanitarian purposes, such as the release of the animal from incurable illness.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cruelty


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pattersonk2002 said:


> I like this >Kevin
> 
> 
> 
> #1 (Coward) Far from it, that is why I voice myself against your one sided opinion how people choose to do things in life that are just not your way of doing things. Blind? far from blind, I have seen more in life then you can dream about since your crusade is hell bent on trying to see your mute blind points. Surly there are many things in life i have not, nor do not like, *again I resolve myself to letting people live there life as they choose. When they trespass against you then go for it, you now have the right to defend your rights, YOU on the other hand are trespassing on his free will and rights of others.* >Kevin



So, what you are saying is that unless you are defending your own rights, then you just simply do not care what kind of cruelty or pain another person puts on any other creature. Sad.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if folks want to flag it then flag it.. really do not think it has any impact on hunters using pigeons for training...if anything it would make them more stead fast on thinking it is the best way.. but aleast one feels like they did do something, so they can feel better about themselves I guess.. if one wanted to crusade to stop this practice then that means alot of control over what others do..and that is not what I would want.. it is a moral issue and a choice.. so Im sure that is the way it will stay, just like other topics like abortion and so on...


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Feeling the Pain of Animals

We're not the only ones who have emotions 
By Marc Bekoff - April 2007 

As a scientist who's studied animal emotions for more than 30 years, I consider myself very fortunate. I love what I do. I love learning about animals, and I love sharing what my colleagues and I discover with others. Whenever I observe or work with animals, I get to contribute to "science" and develop social relationships at the same time, and to me, there's no conflict between those activities. 

While stories about animal emotions abound, there are many lines of scientific support (what I call "science sense") about the nature of animal emotions that are rapidly accumulating from behavioral and neurobiological studies (from the emerging field called social neuroscience using fMRIs and PET scans). Common sense and intuition also feed into and support science sense, and the obvious conclusion is that at least mammals experience rich and deep emotional lives, feeling passions ranging from pure and contagious joy shared so widely among others during play that it is almost epidemic, to deep grief and pain. There also are recent data that show that birds and fish also are sentient and experience pain and suffering. 

Emotions have evolved as adaptations in numerous species and they serve as a social glue to bond animals with one another. Emotions also catalyze and regulate a wide variety of social encounters among friends and competitors and permit animals to protect themselves adaptively and flexibly using various behavior patterns in a wide variety of venues. 

In scientific research there are always surprises. Just when we think we've seen it all, new scientific data appear that force us to rethink what we know and to revise our stereotypes. For example, spindle cells, which were long thought to exist only in humans and other great apes, have recently been discovered in humpback whales, fin whales, killer whales and sperm whales in the same area of their brains as spindle cells in human brains. This brain region is linked with social organization, empathy, and intuition about the feelings of others, as well as rapid gut reactions. Spindle cells are important in processing emotions. It's likely that if we seek the presence of spindle cells in other animals we will find them. 

Neuroscientific research has also shown, using functional magnetic resonance imaging, that elephants have a huge hippocampus, a brain structure in the limbic system that's important in processing emotions. We now know that elephants suffer from psychological flashbacks and likely experience the equivalent of post-traumatic stress disorder. Furthermore, all mammals (including humans) share neuroanatomical structures (for example, the amygdala and hippocampus) and neurochemical pathways in the limbic system that are important for feelings. 

Along these lines, who would have thought that laboratory mice actually are empathic rodents? But now we know they are. Research has shown that mice react more strongly to painful stimuli after they observed other mice in pain, and it turns out that they are fun-loving as well. Interestingly, mice, used in the millions in education and research, are not considered to be an "animal" under the federal animal welfare act in the United States, and aren't protected from harmful research. A quote from the U.S. federal register, volume 69, number 108, Friday June 4, 2004 states: "We are amending the Animal Welfare Act regulations to reflect an amendment to the act's definition of the term animal." The Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002 amended the definition of animal to specifically exclude birds, rats of the genus Rattus, and mice of the genus Mus, bred for use in research. 

We know more about animal passions then we often admit, and we can no longer ignore the pain and suffering of other beings. Many people are faced with difficult, challenging, and frustrating questions about the use of animals in their classrooms and research laboratories, and today we must accept that there are compelling reasons stemming from scientific research to limit, and perhaps stop using, animals in lieu of the numerous highly effective non-animal alternatives that are readily available. 

I often begin my lectures with the question: "Is there anyone in this audience who thinks that dogs don't have feelings — that they don't experience joy and sadness?" I've never had an enthusiastic response to this question, even in scientific gatherings, although on occasion a hand or two goes up slowly, usually halfway, as the person glances around to see if anyone is watching. But if I ask, "How many of you believe that dogs have feelings?," then almost every hand waves wildly, and people smile and nod in vigorous agreement. Using behavior as our guide, by analogy, we map the feelings of other beings onto our own emotional templates, and we do it very reliably. 

*Recognizing that animals have emotions is important, because animals' feelings matter. Animals are sentient beings who experience the ups and downs of daily life, and we must respect this when we interact with them. While we obviously have much more to learn, what we already know should be enough to inspire changes in the way we treat other animals. We must not simply continue with the status quo because that is what we've always done and it's convenient to do so. What we know has changed, and so should our relationships with animals. *Quite often, what we accept as "good welfare" isn't "good enough." Our relationship with other animals is a complex, ambiguous, challenging, and frustrating affair, and we must continually reassess how we should interact with our non-human kin. Humans have enormous power to affect the world any way we choose. Daily, we silence sentience in innumerable animals in a wide variety of venues. There's no doubt whatsoever that, when it comes to what we can and cannot do to other animals, it is their emotions that should inform our discussions and our actions on their behalf. 

*Emotions are the gifts of our ancestors. We have them, and so do other animals. We must never forget that.* 

Marc Bekoff is professor emeritus at the University of Colorado. Some of this essay is excerpted from his book "The Emotional Lives of Animal: A Leading Scientist Explores Animal Joy, Sorrow, and Empathy and Why They Matter" (2007, New World Library) . 

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/apr/01/feeling-the-pain-of-animals/

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-feeling.html


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Back in the 1960s My uncle showed me how to put a pigeon to sleep. It works They used to hunt with dogd And train there dogs with pigeons You take the pigeon tuck it head under its wing as you hold it stroke its neck calmly. And it just goes into a sleep. You can set it down it remains asleep. NO birds get harmed. I was surprised when they showed me that. Then I new a quail hunter who used pigeons to train his dogs NO pigeons were ever harmed. He used them to teach the dogs to point And kept the pigeon s safe and had a small loft and fed them well. Yes the birds may have been scared at times No doubt But they were never killed or the dogs never touched them. So some ways The dog handlers do practice a safer method. Would I do this NO Would I say sell the birds to dog trainers No But we can not stop it. We can dislike it And yes flag the post but another post would be made agin and agin. The age of the internet lets people see much more then the past as it is seen world wide. The dog hunters if given a better idea I bet would use that idea. How about A bird sent to train dogs That an idea Do not know who would make it market it and such But what Idea can you come up with.


----------



## TN_PIGEON (Aug 20, 2010)

re lee said:


> NO birds get harmed. I was surprised when they showed me that. Then I new a quail hunter who used pigeons to train his dogs NO pigeons were ever harmed. He used them to teach the dogs to point And kept the pigeon s safe and had a small loft and fed them well. Yes the birds may have been scared at times No doubt But they were never killed or the dogs never touched them. So some ways The dog handlers do practice a safer method.


I would agree.

Hunters don't want their dogs to destroy the birds. In fact, most of the sporting dogs have been bred to have a trait called "soft mouth." 

Also, the typical hunter has a lot more respect for animals and the environment than many give em credit for. 

Local wildlife mgmt officer shared a story about how they were considering opening the wildlife mgmt area up for a weekend hunt. The birdwatchers had a fit. The officer asked how many birdwatchers had hunting licenses and the answer was exactly zero. The officer then reminded them that 100% of the mgmt areas budget was funded by hunting license fees, and if it weren't for those fees the mgmt area would most likely wither away. 

Flag the post if you want, but don't go insulting the hunters and please don't use the term hillbilly in a derogatory way.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> if folks want to flag it then flag it.. really do not think it has any impact on hunters using pigeons for training...if anything it would make them more stead fast on thinking it is the best way.. but aleast one feels like they did do something, so they can feel better about themselves I guess.. * if one wanted to crusade to stop this practice then that means alot of control over what others do..and that is not what I would want.. *it is a moral issue and a choice.. so Im sure that is the way it will stay, just like other topics like abortion and so on...



If stopping treating pigeons in this manner is considered by you having too much control over others, then how do you feel about cock fights? Because trying to stop that abuse is also having control over what others do. Guess it just depends on what someone considers to be abuse.
The hunters also, after the dogs flush the birds, shoot the poor things over the dog. That sounds fair, doesn't it.


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

Treating pigeons how? Did you read my post in how hunters actually use pigeons for this?? You guys make it sound like the pigeons are tied to a tree and the dog tears them apart and people sit around and laugh.. The ONLY thing pigeons are used for in training is their smell. The dog will follow the path where the pigeon walked and "up" the pigeon, where the pigeon will fly away (Free and unharmed). The whole point of the training is for the dog to learn how to work his nose and get the bird in the air so the hunter can shoot it. Since they are just pigeons, they fly off. 

Yeah sounds BRUTAL to me.. Like I said before, you guys need to quit making assumptions on how stuff is worked. Actually KNOW what is being done with them before you think you are taking this big stand for animals. In this case, you aint saving Sh*t.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> If stopping treating pigeons in this manner is considered by you having too much control over others, then how do you feel about cock fights? Because trying to stop that abuse is also having control over what others do. Guess it just depends on what someone considers to be abuse.
> The hunters also, after the dogs flush the birds, shoot the poor things over the dog. That sounds fair, doesn't it.


how do I feel about cock fights.. I would never make a choice to do it, because I have a character and moral reasoning that tells me it is violent and wrong to make animals do that...same with dog fighting.. same with things that ARE legal.. like abortion.. if that was illegal then no one would have a choice would they.. but that is what the majority of people wanted... to keep.. was their choice.. wether your neighbor agrees with your choice or not.. it is yours to make.. legal or not, it is a moral issue that people need to make on their own..


----------



## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yep Choices are a Thing of the past. The city has taken away my choice to cut/mow the yard or not. If it geets too tall I "have" to cut/mow it. Also they tell me When I can or can't water it.
American Citizens are looseing their choices very fast. Standard Time or Daylight Saving Time. We have no choice --we are "forced" to reset our clocks.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Folks, this thread is becoming problematic as you all are getting a bit out of line with your comments to one another. Let's keep it civil and quit with the barbs being aimed at one member or another.

Terry


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Knoc said:


> Treating pigeons how? Did you read my post in how hunters actually use pigeons for this?? You guys make it sound like the pigeons are tied to a tree and the dog tears them apart and people sit around and laugh.. The ONLY thing pigeons are used for in training is their smell. The dog will follow the path where the pigeon walked and "up" the pigeon, where the pigeon will fly away (Free and unharmed). The whole point of the training is for the dog to learn how to work his nose and get the bird in the air so the hunter can shoot it. Since they are just pigeons, they fly off.
> 
> Yeah sounds BRUTAL to me.. Like I said before, you guys need to quit making assumptions on how stuff is worked. Actually KNOW what is being done with them before you think you are taking this big stand for animals. In this case, you aint saving Sh*t.



Pigeons not being harmed is just not true. Lots of them shoot the birds over the dog. That is the truth, and if you say it isn't, then go to some of the hunting sights and read their posts. I have, and that is what they were saying.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> how do I feel about cock fights.. I would never make a choice to do it, because I have a character and moral reasoning that tells me it is violent and wrong to make animals do that...same with dog fighting.. same with things that ARE legal.. like abortion.. if that was illegal then no one would have a choice would they.. but that is what the majority of people wanted... to keep.. was their choice.. wether your neighbor agrees with your choice or not.. it is yours to make.. legal or not, it is a moral issue that people need to make on their own..



Since when should abuse of any creature be a moral choice that people should be able to make for themselves? Some people have no morals. And if that were the case, then this would be a pretty sad place. There would never be anything done to protect any animals. It would, I suppose be different if we were talking about child abuse. So it is okay to abuse an animal, but not a child?


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Since when should abuse of any creature be a moral choice that people should be able to make for themselves? Some people have no morals. And if that were the case, then this would be a pretty sad place. There would never be anything done to protect any animals. It would, I suppose be different if we were talking about child abuse. So it is okay to abuse an animal, but not a child?


of course not.. legal or not people make bad moral descisions.. just the way it is.. I understand you want to stop something you feel is abuse, just like some people think keeping my cats as indoor cats is abuse, I respect their opinion even though I do not agree with it.. I sure do not want them making ME do what they feel is right..I have my own moral compass.


----------



## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*Over*



TAWhatley said:


> Folks, this thread is becoming problematic as you all are getting a bit out of line with your comments to one another. Let's keep it civil and quit with the barbs being aimed at one member or another.
> 
> Terry


Terry, just letting you know I did read this and I am done looking at this post>Kevin


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Lol you guys are all nuts. I didn't even bother reading the rest of this. and I am a red neck country girl lol Im allowed to call others hillbillies. no bigotry lol you know what assumptions make you....lol
Lighten up really. People are just bored and looking for an argument here. Its annoying. If you don't agree....don't do it. If you do, ok. No need to argue. noone is going to change anyone's minds here and now everything is completely off topic and people are pulling things up that don't even make sense. Just drop it. Honestly, moderators just delete this whole thing.


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

TAWhatley said:


> Folks, this thread is becoming problematic as you all are getting a bit out of line with your comments to one another. Let's keep it civil and quit with the barbs being aimed at one member or another.
> 
> Terry


Why dont you just delete these threads as they are posted? They are dumb anyway.



Jay3 said:


> Pigeons not being harmed is just not true. Lots of them shoot the birds over the dog. That is the truth, and if you say it isn't, then go to some of the hunting sights and read their posts. I have, and that is what they were saying.


I dont have to go to sites. I have BEEN to trainings where pigeons have been used on a few occasions. NEVER have I seen pigeons get shot. In the area where this has happened in the events I have went to, noone even had any guns. They werent even allowed in these area's because people were walking in and out of there often.
So your telling me that you would rather have the owner of a barn/shed go in and shoot the pigeons right off the bat then have them run through some grass and fly away? That makes sense.


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

GimpieLover said:


> Lol you guys are all nuts. I didn't even bother reading the rest of this. and I am a red neck country girl lol Im allowed to call others hillbillies. no bigotry lol you know what assumptions make you....lol
> Lighten up really. People are just bored and looking for an argument here. Its annoying. If you don't agree....don't do it. If you do, ok. No need to argue. noone is going to change anyone's minds here and now everything is completely off topic and people are pulling things up that don't even make sense. Just drop it. Honestly, moderators just delete this whole thing.


Your the one who looks the most "bored" to me. Sitting on Craigslist waiting for pigeon hunter posts to flag when its pretty obvious you have no clue how they are even being used.
I suggest everyone of you that is crying about how "cruel" this is, to actually go to a training session and see how it is actually done. I can almost guarantee that it wont be a issue to you anymore.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Knoc...let me tell you about a pigeon I picked up, here in Portland, from a person that found it and posted here looking for help. The pigeon had both wings trimmed so far that is was unable to even get lift off the ground. Best the woman could figure, the bird managed to get away from her neighbors that had hunting dogs kenneled in their yard. The bird had managed to get under the fence.
A Friend told me about an incident she had with her niece, who was studying at the time to be a veterinarian and also living with her. The niece got a couple of Lab puppies and when they were a bit older, started training them. She bought 5 pigeons, cut their flight feathers and tied their legs together. When she was done with her tining exercise, she threw the pigeons, legs still tied and mangled, in the back of my friend pick up. She apparently forgot about them and left them to die. My friend fortunately found them and was horrified by the condition they were in.
She did ask her niece to move out.


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

Charis said:


> Knoc...let me tell you about a pigeon I picked up, here in Portland, from a person that found it and posted here looking for help. The pigeon had both wings trimmed so far that is was unable to even get lift off the ground. Best the woman could figure, the bird managed to get away from her neighbors that had hunting dogs kenneled in their yard. The bird had managed to get under the fence.
> A Friend told me about an incident she had with her niece, who was studying at the time to be a veterinarian and also living with her. The niece got a couple of Lab puppies and when they were a bit older, started training them. She bought 5 pigeons, cut their flight feathers and tied their legs together. When she was done with her tining exercise, she threw the pigeons, legs still tied and mangled, in the back of my friend pick up. She apparently forgot about them and left them to die. My friend fortunately found them and was horrified by the condition they were in.
> She did ask her niece to move out.


Im not saying that isnt going to be a few bad apples out there. There are people who fish using kittens with there feet cut off as bait, but that does is not the normal for hunters and fisherman. Its like saying that everyone who owns a pitbull, fights it. It just isnt the way it is. Like I said go to training session at a local gun range and watch. But yeah, there is defintly some sicko's out there that get there kicks of being cruel to animals. Im just saying it is far from majority or what your average hunter considers normal.
I dont even know why a person would do what you had said was done to a bird even from a hunters point of view. A hunter doesnt want the dogs to attact the birds or chomp on them. The whole point is to have them retireve them after you shot them so the hunter can eat them.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I hate it when this turns to dog hunters vs us. It is not all black and white folks. And I don't understand why there is an instant association of animal cruelty with respect to hunting. You know the Department of Fish and Games have rules on how to use live animals for training. Yes, there are probably people there that abuse their privileges though.

Killing an animals does seem to look cruel. But back in my youth when we want to eat animals we have no choice, but to catch it, and butcher it. It was not a pretty sight. It will never be a pretty sight. And it will always look cruel!

And I think we should lock this thread now else we will start biting each others head and that wouldn't be pretty.


----------



## Knoc (Jul 10, 2010)

If only everyone knew what went on in butcher shops and how the food they eat are raised.. I worked in a butcher shop for 3 years and it was a weekly thing for extra cows that we wouldnt have time to butcher would end up standing in a butcher holder pen with no food, no water, and forced to stand. Also butching pigs.. It isnt done with a gun, but a mallet. And it usually takes a few wacks to get it down.. Now should we quit eating hamburger and bacon too??


----------



## GimpieLover (Dec 18, 2005)

Knoc said:


> Your the one who looks the most "bored" to me. Sitting on Craigslist waiting for pigeon hunter posts to flag when its pretty obvious you have no clue how they are even being used.
> I suggest everyone of you that is crying about how "cruel" this is, to actually go to a training session and see how it is actually done. I can almost guarantee that it wont be a issue to you anymore.



I check craigslist in search of people who have found injured pigeons needing homes, lost racers, ect. 
I support the respect and loving care of animals, not fear evoked sport. I do what I can to ruin that kind of fun for people like you.


----------



## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Charis said:


> Knoc...let me tell you about a pigeon I picked up, here in Portland, from a person that found it and posted here looking for help. The pigeon had both wings trimmed so far that is was unable to even get lift off the ground. Best the woman could figure, the bird managed to get away from her neighbors that had hunting dogs kenneled in their yard. The bird had managed to get under the fence.
> A Friend told me about an incident she had with her niece, who was studying at the time to be a veterinarian and also living with her. The niece got a couple of Lab puppies and when they were a bit older, started training them. She bought 5 pigeons, cut their flight feathers and tied their legs together. When she was done with her tining exercise, she threw the pigeons, legs still tied and mangled, in the back of my friend pick up. She apparently forgot about them and left them to die. My friend fortunately found them and was horrified by the condition they were in.
> She did ask her niece to move out.


That is realy sad. Did the five in the back of the truck live?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Knoc said:


> If only everyone knew what went on in butcher shops and how the food they eat are raised.. I worked in a butcher shop for 3 years and it was a weekly thing for extra cows that we wouldnt have time to butcher would end up standing in a butcher holder pen with no food, no water, and forced to stand. Also butching pigs.. It isnt done with a gun, but a mallet. And it usually takes a few wacks to get it down.. *Now should we quit eating hamburger and bacon too*??


Personally...I think that's a grand idea but you are really off topic now.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK, this thread is done. Take it private or let it go. I do encourage everyone to review the terms or use and the rules of conduct here, please.

Terry


----------

